# Balance Shaft Delete.



## rissa422 (Jan 17, 2009)

How did you do it?


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: Balance Shaft Delete. (rissa422)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rissa422* »_How did you do it?

Here is a thread and pic's that JC / Jeff made







Bob.G
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4308381


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*FV-QR*

Modified 1.8t parts for me


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Ok...Let me get this straight, cause sometimes i'm sorry to say this
forum is FULL OF IT, and i for one am not a fool.....
People ditch their balance shaft....

_From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In piston engine engineering, a balance shaft is an eccentric weighted shaft which offsets vibrations in engine designs that are not inherently balanced (for example, most four-cylinder engines)_

....and then install "aftermarket silicon pulleys" so they can rev higher than with the stock vibration damper ??
Oh and another thing.....
If this engine is internally dampened....why all the fuss about the "devil's instruments"....the lightweight pulleys ??
Nice........


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

We've offered balance shaft deletes. The engine's we've removed them from, in house, were balanced.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_We've offered balance shaft deletes. The engine's we've removed them from, in house, were balanced. 

Right...but i'm guessing those engines were "race built"...
Somehow the idea of having a forum where 
1)People sell aftermarket vibration dampers
2)People sell lightened pulleys
3)People delete their balance shaft
seems a bit too confusing to me...
So which is it ?
Do i delete my shaft and then install a special vibration damper ?
Do i not delete my balance shaft and install a lightweight pulley ?
Do i not delete my balance shaft and install a special vibration damper ??
I mean PEOPLE....Get your stuff toghether.........


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*FV-QR*

VW never used blanace shafts int he past. The 2.0t is basically the same engine they have used for 30+ years now.
I have no balance shafts, and a lighter non dampened smaller crank pulley. About 20K miles daily driven motor that is rev'd to 8000 rpm. 
stock crank, scat rods and je pistons not balanced.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_VW never used blanace shafts int he past. The 2.0t is basically the same engine they have used for 30+ years now.
I have no balance shafts, and a lighter non dampened smaller crank pulley. About 20K miles daily driven motor that is rev'd to 8000 rpm. 
stock crank, scat rods and je pistons not balanced. 

Thanks for the info Chris...
Fact is, i'm also running a lightened pulley, and all this scare about vibrations
just got to me.
I take it you feel good with your setup, knowing the BHP you are currently dealing with ??


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Fact is, i'm also running a lightened pulley, and all this scare about vibrations
just got to me

And they should!
Because someone on this forum says they have it running for XXX miles does not mean it is the right thing to do.Numourous private parties have done back to back dyno testing of lightened pulleys and the gains were so minimal it was just assumed to be the margin of error on the dyno (i.e. +/- 3hp) ,yet on the flipside a pulley such has a unit from fluidampr has been *KNOWN* to:
1. reduce/eliminate the backing out of impulse wheel bolts 
2. prolong the life of the motor
3. Increase hp/torque in the upper RPM range.
Remove the lightened pulley and get one of these:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4399644
If you need further proof enjoy the read:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4421682


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
And they should!
Because someone on this forum says they have it running for XXX miles does not mean it is the right thing to do.Numourous private parties have done back to back dyno testing of lightened pulleys and the gains were so minimal it was just assumed to be the margin of error on the dyno (i.e. +/- 3hp) ,yet on the flipside a pulley such has a unit from fluidampr has been *KNOWN* to:
1. reduce/eliminate the backing out of impulse wheel bolts 
2. prolong the life of the motor
3. Increase hp/torque in the upper RPM range.
Remove the lightened pulley and get one of these:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4399644
If you need further proof enjoy the read:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4421682


I already know about the USPS/Fluidampr pulleys, since i do frequent this forum.
Fact is though, i don't know if i can justify paying that kind of cash for something
that is supposedly better for my engine (than a lightened pulley) when i could (if i buy into this
vibration scare) just REINSTALL MY OEM PULLEY, and be done with it.
Fact is i noticed a LOT of throttle response improvement with the lighter pulley, and
i don't rev my engine even close to 8000 rpm...
The USPS pulley has the same weight as the stock pulley, so you gain nothing
from reducing the load on the engine, on the other hand it is claimed that
vibration reduction is the BHP gainer....
Well how badly must your engine be vibrating to gain a parasitic loss of 10 BHP ??









As stated above, vibrations may be bad for your engine, but since as Chris said
this is the FIRST VW engine to have an internal damper, who is to say this prevents
the ill effects of a lightened pulley ??
The BHP results on the 1.8T thread should not be compared to the TFSI.
Lack of another damper may actually make the Fliudampr a necessity on the 1.8T, but
can we really transfer that gained over to the TFSI that easily ??


_Modified by GolfRS at 6:41 PM 6-13-2009_


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
The BHP results on the 1.8T thread should not be compared to the TFSI.
Lack of another damper may actually make the Fliudampr a necessity on the 1.8T, but
can we really transfer that gained over to the TFSI that easily ??

Apples to oranges as the 2.0 FSIT oil pump is connected to the rotating assembly (crankshaft included) Via a CHAIN sitting on guides.

_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_REINSTALL MY OEM PULLEY, and be done with it.

Do that http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
1. reduce/eliminate the backing out of impulse wheel bolts 
2. prolong the life of the motor
3. Increase hp/torque in the upper RPM range.


There is no proof of any of those 3 things anymore so that mine and thousand of others running like I am are not having issues.
the dynos provided in that link can be said to be just as much a fluke and error in the dyno as your argument here for gains.
I'm not suggesting anyone do what i am doing, I am however just showing that its not the end of the world to remove them.. VW didn't add them to make more power or prolong engine life they added them because the average consumer is a sissy.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Issam Abed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Issam Abed* »_
Apples to oranges as the 2.0 FSIT oil pump is connected to the rotating assembly (crankshaft included) Via a CHAIN sitting on guides.


So is the 1.8t how is that apples to oranges?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
So is the 1.8t how is that apples to oranges?

You are a tech,figure it out.

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_There is no proof of any of those 3 things anymore so that mine and thousand of others running like I am are not having issues.

Who said anything about your issues?

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
the dynos provided in that link can be said to be just as much a fluke and error in the dyno as your argument here for gains.

11whp gain as dyno error?? Right....

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
*I'm not suggesting anyone do what i am doing*, I am however just showing that its not the end of the world to remove them.. 

But by posting up "well my car runs it and I make XX whp" is influencing them into doing what you are doing.Maybe you should add a disclaimer to your posts.

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
VW didn't add them to make more power or prolong engine life they added them because the average consumer is a sissy. 

Chris,
this is exactly why many users on here that have been around do not bother engaging in technical discussions with yourself.
Are you serious with the above response? Every forced induction motor produced by VW has recieved some form of a harmonic dampner whether it was removalable (ala PG G60 motors of the late 80's) or built in like the 1.8T 06A/06B motors.
The crankshaft accessory pulley is not just for the "average consumer" and it *IS* indeed there to prolong the life of the engine.Whether you want to admit it or not is ENTIRELY up to you but there are numorous tech files out there as well as a long HISTORY relating to harmonic dampners and there benefits towards an engine.
Not much more to discuss. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## rissa422 (Jan 17, 2009)

so is this just a matter of pulling out those shafts and plugging up the holes? 
I'm getting the whole rotating assembly balanced so, not to worried about the vibrations here. Harmonic noise transfer is an issue for every motor though so stock dampener will remain. Every car has a threshold for when harmonic noise can start to run away and shack your spiny things to pieces. Where that is idk and idc. I wanna really turn my motor when I build a head down the road. So while the bottom is apart this needs to be done. This whole harmonics thing is a whole other thread (actually 1000 threads) and NOT why I started this, sooo back on topic....

Its a pull and plug for a 4g63, just wanted some info on exactly how its done on these dubs.


_Modified by rissa422 at 10:10 PM 6-14-2009_


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## TheBox (Jul 20, 2003)

*Re: (rissa422)*

I thought there really was no need to balance a 4 cylinder since there are no opposing cylinders? correct me if I am wrong please.


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## rissa422 (Jan 17, 2009)

I think that's why a lot of people say they don't do much for inline motors.
Though, I was under the impression that they were balanced to the stock rotating assembly. So once you change rods or pistons they are pointless and doing more harm than good. 


_Modified by rissa422 at 10:19 PM 6-14-2009_


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Interesting stuff...
Didn't know about the "opposing cylinder issue", but its a valid 
theory.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Issam Abed)*



Issam Abed said:


> You are a tech,figure it out.
> 
> _Quote »_
> I'm running an actual 1.8t oil pump in my 2.0t I did figure it out thanks.. It is a chain driven with a plastic guide oil pump just like the 2.0t.
> ...


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
so people are not allowed to hear bout positive experiences doing something? You can post negative comments to influence people but no one can post anything to say they are not having problems nor are thousands of others running similar setups?


+1 for Chris.
For me this is what forums are all about, and not for scaring people one way
or the other to promote stuff.Advertising is good, yes.It helps keep things "running",
but manipulating people's thoughts...








Anyways, we could just as well have advertisers from the other side telling us
how they feel differently about this whole deal.Its almost like saying companies make products
that damage our vehicles.
So my question is...All these aftermarket shops that carry "vibration damper" products
have thrown away the lightened pulleys they sell or used to sell ?
After so many years in the marketplace, now suddenly we realize if dampening is
necessary or not ??And in between all these cars that use light pulleys (even without internal dampers like in the TFSI), how many of them have actually fallen apart ??


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## rissa422 (Jan 17, 2009)

Another thread gone OT








O well I figure out my original q myself then.








I won't run a lightened pulley. The potential problems and issues far, FAR out weigh the potential gain. Fluidampr has been fine for most cars. I don't know about the fsi engine but for bmw donig a lightened pulley and lightened flywheel means bye bye main bearings and I have seen some nasty results on 4g63s with lightened pulleys, crank pulley bolts backing out causing timing belt jumps and failures. Not worth it imo.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*FV-QR*

The problem cannot always be blamed on the modification alone. BMWs? they had bearing problems stock. 4G63? that has a host of its own problems as well. 
cars with pulleys and flywheels and a host of other mods who is to say the engine was put together correctly?
There are way too many variables to say one way or another any of it was caused by a pulley. No one is saying a fluidmpr is not fine its more a matter of is it doing what it said or exaggerating unknowns to promote itself?
A friend of mine had a dealer say his lightened pully on his m3 vibrated his oil pump off. No proof either way and it was out of warranty and luckily no damage as he heard a noise and literally coasted into the dealer parking lot, but he wont' run one again despite there being nothing to back it up.


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## foxracr10 (Oct 3, 2006)

soo how do you remove the balance shafts on 2.0FSI?
Is there a kit?
so is this just a matter of pulling out those shafts and plugging up the holes?


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## rissa422 (Jan 17, 2009)

Yeah of course ever engine has its own tendencies and weak links but some of these parts have gained a history in a few instances but that of course is no reason to denote them as to the particular cause as you've noted. Too many variables but when there's a lot of people running into the same problem it makes it a bil easier to close in on the culprit.
The 4g63 I'm refering to would be the evo 8 and 9 motor. In its last rendition that motor is far from problematic imo. Art least all the bearing problems that plagued the dsm's are far from an issues with the revised split thrust bearings in the new motors. Regardless though people have been remoiving balance shafts for years form those with few problems. The same goes for the pulleys. There was a recent group of people that came out on evolutionm having issuesn with there fluidampr and lightened pulleys. BUT most are fine. The problem is theres no way to collect data as the problem is usually found too late and after a total failure so there is no means left to narrow in on what caused it. Either way a properly assembled and balanced engine will be fine without these shafts and with a fluidampr. Whatever its balanced with really.
The only exception I see is that you should run some sort of dampening as your engine gathers a lot of harmonics from the input shaft of the trans and the clutch. Especially with the use a of lightened single mass flywheel, and even more so with an aluminum flywheel.
I just don't know exactly where these dub motors run into problems but.....
*Thats not why I started thread I'm doing a fully balanced shorty. I just wanna know HOW YOU REMOVED THE SHAFTS*


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## rissa422 (Jan 17, 2009)

I'll figure it out just fine on my own I just wanted to know if theres anything i should look for / anticipate.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

It actually doesn't really matter THAT much why a thread is started, but more what INFORMATION is contained in it.
Its not a "question/reply" forum where individuals can get info
about matters troubling them.I mean if you can do it...fine...
But getting upset cause a discussion is taking a different route that
the one planned is really not for a "forum".Threads are not sterile.That's
what is great about the whole idea.We are not telling jokes you know.
We are debating a "supposed" issue....
As for your idea about ditching the balance shafts to install a vibration damper...well....its seems kine stupid if you ask me...If you already have a balancer, and its REALLY hard to get to...do you go removing it,so that you can balance the engine again externaly ???
Oh boy...weird place the Vortex.....


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## foxracr10 (Oct 3, 2006)

_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_It actually doesn't really matter THAT much why a thread is started, but more what INFORMATION is contained in it.
Its not a "question/reply" forum where individuals can get info
about matters troubling them.I mean if you can do it...fine...
But getting upset cause a discussion is taking a different route that
the one planned is really not for a "forum".Threads are not sterile.That's
what is great about the whole idea.We are not telling jokes you know.
We are debating a "supposed" issue....
As for your idea about ditching the balance shafts to install a vibration damper...well....its seems kine stupid if you ask me...If you already have a balancer, and its REALLY hard to get to...do you go removing it,so that you can balance the engine again externaly ???
Oh boy...weird place the Vortex.....

Man, so glad this guy is supplying useful information!
I believe the OP is asking how do you remove the balance shafts and if there is a kit already made up.
I'm 100% sure you should stop jacking this thread!


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*FV-QR*

The thread is about removing balance shafts, its clear there are people concerend with other issues and discussing them is relevent it is not off topic.
APR can probably sell you one like they built for Jeff you'd need to call them or find an extra pump and attempt to modify it yourself. I'll sell you mine if you are interested just shoot me an email.


_Quote »_ There was a recent group of people that came out on evolutionm having issuesn with there *fluidampr* and lightened pulleys.

I don't get this statement saying people had problems with fluidampr but then you suggest that people use them? If there isn't enough data to show whether they caused the problem or not there certainly is not enough data to show whether they prevent it or not.


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## rissa422 (Jan 17, 2009)

The fluidamr, pulley and dampening talk is more relevant to the threads previously linked here. 
I'm asking how you guys who have removed the balance shafts accomplished the task. I just want some info or a how-to. I just don't get whats with the secrets around here.

I'm saying every situation is different, however you should have a form of dampening. Whether it be stock or aftermarket, the choice is yours. 
Also with the evo thing I incorrectly said fluidampr, I meant to say a lightened pulley with no form of dampening. These cars were also all running aftermarket lightened flywheels. The failures were all very similar with the pulley to seemingly shake its way off the motor pulling its bolts out of the crank gear for the timing belt. This pulled teeth off the gear and well you can imagine the gory aftermath. 



_Modified by rissa422 at 12:06 PM 6-16-2009_


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## rissa422 (Jan 17, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (GolfRS)*

golf rs 
Dude this topic you jacked my thread with is as applicable as it is beat to death. I say run one or don't its your call. stock works but if you wanna roll the dice for little gain that's fine. there is a wealth of information on this if you care to research elsewhere but this thread is now driving towards answering your question NOT my original question. That's an OT thread. That said this is a fine debate but its totally astray from my purpose of starting this thread and belongs in say, the threads that were linked here after you asked the first time. The proper course of action would have been to take this discussion there and leave my thread to its original purpose.
To your inquiry of, "Why remove the balance shafts yet retain a dampener on the crank pulley?"
Experience tells us that balance shafts have a way of exiting the motor when spinning well beyond the stock rev limiter. Dampeners do not.
Balance shafts are intended to counteract vibrations created by the rotating assembly. A dampener is made to absorb harmonics.
so,
balance shafts = low frequency suppression
dampening = high frequency suppression 
if you will.
A properly balanced small displacement inline motor does not need these balance shafts. Though no matter how well balanced a motor is, harmonics and/or "fast" vibrations are still prevalent in the motor and also transferred to the motor via the drive train. These still need to be taken care of. Thus, I will be running a dampener and no balance shafts.


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## Darthnooch (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Balance Shaft Delete. (rracerguy717)*

Need Help about this topic. Im installing new connection rods and I removed the drive gear from the balance shafts rather then the oil pump gear. Do you how to time the drive gear with the balance shafts so I can set the chain timing right with the crank drive? PLEASE SOMEBODY HELP!


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*FV-QR*

The balance shafts are known to be failure prone on high hp applications. Our reasoning for removing them is to increase the durability of the engine in a racing environment. Balancing of the internal components makes this possible.
To remove the balance shafts without balancing the internals is prolly not a good idea and is prolly not necessary for most applications.


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## rissa422 (Jan 17, 2009)

/\/\ this is what I've been saying http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by rissa422 at 8:40 PM 6-17-2009_


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

Wow...OK. 

I have seen this being more of a thing to do in Europe than it is here in the states. 

I came on here to find out more about the shaft delete in trying to help another. 
But there is no useful information here. It's been eleven years since the final post in this thread...and there are many shaft delete and 1.8L conversion kits now available.

The person I am trying to help mentioned they did the shaft delete, but they also say there's a turbo restriction bolt and an oil return block-off. 
They are seeking help because they have high oil pressure and I said the restriction and return block-off may be the issue itself. 
I see nothing of those two in any of the shaft delete and 1.8L pump swap kits...nor mentioned here.

Any help?


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## quietA3guy (Oct 12, 2007)

ROH ECHT said:


> Wow...OK.
> 
> I have seen this being more of a thing to do in Europe than it is here in the states.
> 
> ...


I would assume the turbo restriction bolt is for an aftermarket turbo with ball bearings. They require lower pressure then stock.
I'm not sure about the "oil return block-off". But there is a separate hole in the engine block for feeding oil back into the balance shaft assembly for the purpose of lubricating the balance shaft bearings. I would assume that if the balance shaft is removed then the hole needs to be blocked off.

I believe most of the people installing the 1.8T oil pump are also having to install the 1.8T oil filter. 2.0T oil pressure valve is in the balance shaft assembly. 1.8T oil pressure valve is in the oil filter. Instalation in the 2.0T requires a "1.8T oil filter adapter" and possibly the 1.8T oil cooler.


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

quietA3guy said:


> I would assume the turbo restriction bolt is for an aftermarket turbo with ball bearings. They require lower pressure then stock.
> I'm not sure about the "oil return block-off". But there is a separate hole in the engine block for feeding oil back into the balance shaft assembly for the purpose of lubricating the balance shaft bearings. I would assume that if the balance shaft is removed then the hole needs to be blocked off.
> 
> I believe most of the people installing the 1.8T oil pump are also having to install the 1.8T oil filter. 2.0T oil pressure valve is in the balance shaft assembly. 1.8T oil pressure valve is in the oil filter. Instalation in the 2.0T requires a "1.8T oil filter adapter" and possibly the 1.8T oil cooler.


Thanks for all of this info. 

I believe they are running the stock turbo because no turbo swap was mentioned, but this may have just been an oversight.
In fact, I am still seeking more info from the OP as they only mentioned deleting the shafts and the turbo restriction bolt and return plug.
If you are interested in looking in on the post...it is at: https://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/907779-PCV-system-Excessive-oil-in-cylinders

But I checked in on it and then saw there wasn't much to go from with their initial post and so I became curious. 
Also, for those issues I do not know much about, I try working through them as I may learn something myself. But I am not much help with regards to the shaft delete and oil pump swaps.


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## quietA3guy (Oct 12, 2007)

ROH ECHT said:


> Thanks for all of this info.
> 
> I believe they are running the stock turbo because no turbo swap was mentioned, but this may have just been an oversight.
> In fact, I am still seeking more info from the OP as they only mentioned deleting the shafts and the turbo restriction bolt and return plug.
> ...


Yes. Not really enough information there.
It's hard to tell exactly what he's done to the oil system.
But there is a good chance it is the cause of his problems.


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

quietA3guy said:


> Yes. Not really enough information there.
> It's hard to tell exactly what he's done to the oil system.
> But there is a good chance it is the cause of his problems.


Great, thank you. 
Right, I too was in need of more detail.
I did direct him to the UK MK5 forum. They are more ready to do the delete over there and he may receive more helpful advice than I could offer.


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