# VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle



## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

My setup : 3.0L, 8.3:1 comp (pistons), TT 260/264 cams, T4b turbo, EIP manifold and plumbing, using C2's stage II fueling kit - 4" MAF 42# injectors and chip. The BOV is rerouted into the intake after the MAF and before the turbo.
My issue : at part throttle, anything under 25%, the car wants to buck and jerk. This issue goes away after 2600RPM but makes it a real pain to just cruise city streets if your in traffic. I'm also having issues with the idle. The oddest part is its a intermittent (SP?) problem. but the idle loves to creep up to 1800-1900rpm at stops. Also, when shifting gears, the idle will hang at exactly where you lifted to shift. It does it at any rpm and any engine speed.....but not all the time. The last issue I'm having is trying to do roll ons. If I start a pull at under 3000rpm it bucks and feels like it pulls timing all the way through the rpm's, the power just isn't there. But if I throw the ish down into third (on the freeway,which is usually around 4000rpm) and go WOT it pulls like a raped ape to 7000rpm in 3rd 4th and 5th.
I cant figure it out, but before I send my chip back to C2 to see if there's a issue with it, I thought it would be worth asking you guys to see if there's something I'm over looking.
Thanks


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## anti bling (Dec 13, 2003)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (apexslider)*

while i am not an expert with the vr6, the problem that you are describing sounds like you have a vacuum leak some where. i would check all your vac lines. manifold gasket points,etc. i hope you get it fixed.


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (anti bling)*

This is what I was thinking...but I cant find one. I will probably go over it all again just to double check.


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

My car is acting exactly as you have described... I've got a 3.0L, T04e, 8.5:1 CR, 30# injectors, 263* cams, C2. I get a strong hesitation and bucking from 2000-2800. Idle is very lean (16,17). Pulls hard if I get a nice clean WOT run, but not when I'm at partial throttle.
I haven't had time to really mess with it.
-m


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## BubonicCorrado (Jul 24, 2003)

*Re: (maxslug)*

Disconnect your 02 sensors.


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## stoicbmx (Jul 5, 2004)

*Re: (BubonicCorrado)*

i had the same ****ty idle, i did a pressure test using this method. only about 4psi, and heard a slight hissing. well i found my leak! http://www.awe-tuning.com/page...AQ=35


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: (BubonicCorrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BubonicCorrado* »_Disconnect your 02 sensors.

C2 said to leave them alone....of course, that was prior to having any issues


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## gtimagic (Feb 13, 2002)

*Re: (apexslider)*

Welcome to the club. You have paid to enter the world of unknowns and unexpected. Be prepared to deal with these issues and be happy about it.









My bucking and weird idle issues were totally solved when I unplugged the ISV (but still connected) & actually improved a bit more when I removed the EGR & Solenoid. 
Good Luck


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## BubonicCorrado (Jul 24, 2003)

*Re: (apexslider)*


_Quote, originally posted by *apexslider* »_C2 said to leave them alone....of course, that was prior to having any issues

Disconnect them. Your car will be a new animal.
Trust me bro http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: (BubonicCorrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BubonicCorrado* »_
Disconnect them. Your car will be a new animal.
Trust me bro http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

guess it couldn't hurt to try. its a nice day so maybe I'll try it and see if I can find a nice stretch of road


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## BubonicCorrado (Jul 24, 2003)

*Re: (apexslider)*


_Quote, originally posted by *apexslider* »_guess it couldn't hurt to try. its a nice day so maybe I'll try it and see if I can find a nice stretch of road

Cool. Let me know how it goes!


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

When you disconnect them the car should act just like open-loop chip. However, I went to the closed-loop chip for a reason! 
That pressure tester looks like a PITA to make, but might be a good thing to try. 

_Quote, originally posted by *gtimagic* »_Welcome to the club. You have paid to enter the world of unknowns and unexpected. Be prepared to deal with these issues and be happy about it.

This is the worst diagnostic method i've ever heard of... 
1. dig hole
2. insert head
3. apply sand.
-m


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: (maxslug)*


_Quote, originally posted by *maxslug* »_When you disconnect them the car should act just like open-loop chip. However, I went to the closed-loop chip for a reason! 
That pressure tester looks like a PITA to make, but might be a good thing to try. 
This is the worst diagnostic method i've ever heard of... 
1. dig hole
2. insert head
3. apply sand.
-m


Be happy you didn't try to figure this crap out for the four years prior to the C2 stuff and the widespread availability of standalone. You could have an ATP chip. Count your blessings.


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## BubonicCorrado (Jul 24, 2003)

*Re: (cabzilla)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cabzilla* »_Be happy you didn't try to figure this crap out for the four years prior to the C2 stuff and the widespread availability of standalone. You could have an ATP chip. Count your blessings. 

It's a miracle your motor survived that thing!


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: (BubonicCorrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BubonicCorrado* »_It's a miracle your motor survived that thing!

Even better is the fact that the second we hooked the DTA up and made power, it blew up.


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## BubonicCorrado (Jul 24, 2003)

*Re: (cabzilla)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cabzilla* »_Even better is the fact that the second we hooked the DTA up and made power, it blew up.









Well ****, you would probalby kill yourself too after the hell you, and ATP put that motor through. hahaha


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: (cabzilla)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cabzilla* »_Be happy you didn't try to figure this crap out for the four years prior to the C2 stuff and the widespread availability of standalone. You could have an ATP chip. Count your blessings. 

I don't have that much patience... The only reason I considered boosting a VR6 was because the path was already paved http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: (maxslug)*


_Quote, originally posted by *maxslug* »_I don't have that much patience... The only reason I considered boosting a VR6 was because the path was already paved http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


There are some stepping stones on the trail, the the cement truck is miles and miles away... 

The only "sure thing" is to ditch the factory ECU and find a standalone someone near you can tune well. 


_Modified by cabzilla at 5:43 PM 12-18-2006_


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## ForsFedRado (Sep 28, 2005)

*Re: (cabzilla)*

if i had to guess I would say you may have a issue with the throttle body, mabe the adaptation? Setting throttle body adaptaion is good thing when this is happening. Are there any codes present? years ao I figured out how to modify the throttle body to eliminate EIP's bucking issues on a obd2 car and never had a issue since. 
If the issues persists i would install the O.e. throttle body pipe and mass air flow sensor and drive the car N/A and see how it drives. This is Quickest way to see if it is a turbo issue or not.


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## BubonicCorrado (Jul 24, 2003)

*Re: (ForsFedRado)*

So is this thing moving yet or what?


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: (BubonicCorrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BubonicCorrado* »_So is this thing moving yet or what?

Sorry! It was so nice I said the F**** the VR and took the CBR out instead. I'm unplugging them tomorrow when I'm off work


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: (ForsFedRado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ForsFedRado* »_if i had to guess I would say you may have a issue with the throttle body, mabe the adaptation? Setting throttle body adaptaion is good thing when this is happening. Are there any codes present? years ao I figured out how to modify the throttle body to eliminate EIP's bucking issues on a obd2 car and never had a issue since. 
If the issues persists i would install the O.e. throttle body pipe and mass air flow sensor and drive the car N/A and see how it drives. This is Quickest way to see if it is a turbo issue or not.

the only codes present are in regards to no secondary air (as it was removed), and usually max engine speed as well....but there's no cure for the second one! We've done throttle body adaptation on it 3 times now. Once with EIP's set up, and twice with C2's, seems to have no effect. I'm going to take it off tomorrow to see if it's getting hung up, but it was cleaned not even 1500 miles ago.


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## BubonicCorrado (Jul 24, 2003)

*Re: (apexslider)*

So... did you do it yet?


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: (BubonicCorrado)*

idle is still way out of control, but over all driveability is amazing. I seriously can not believe what a difference it made. of course, my fuel miliage will probably go in the crapper....but it runs great at part throttle now! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VR6OOM (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (apexslider)*

What are your AFR's under boost? Do you get any mid-rpm lean spikes at wot?


_Modified by VR6OOM at 9:51 PM 12-21-2006_


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## BubonicCorrado (Jul 24, 2003)

*Re: (apexslider)*


_Quote, originally posted by *apexslider* »_idle is still way out of control, but over all driveability is amazing. I seriously can not believe what a difference it made. of course, my fuel miliage will probably go in the crapper....but it runs great at part throttle now! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Leave the O2 sensors unpluged, and reset the ECU. Idle should go back to normal.


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (VR6OOM)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6OOM* »_What are your AFR's under boost? Do you get any mid-rpm lean spikes at wot?

_Modified by VR6OOM at 9:51 PM 12-21-2006_

on the dyno my afr's were around high 11's and mid 12's. no spikes at all.


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: (BubonicCorrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BubonicCorrado* »_
Leave the O2 sensors unpluged, and reset the ECU. Idle should go back to normal.

well, the car is back to doing exactly what it was doing prior to me unplugging the o2's. So now I'm really lost. I got one good day of driving - and it was good, the car felt amazing - but it's back to $hit now doing the SAME thing. Any more guesses?


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## BubonicCorrado (Jul 24, 2003)

*Re: (apexslider)*

Blue coolant temp sensor may be the cause of your problems.


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: (BubonicCorrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BubonicCorrado* »_Blue coolant temp sensor may be the cause of your problems.

really...never thought that would cause driveability issues. Makes sense that it may effect the idle. guess I can get one and swap'em out. anything is worth a try at this point


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## BubonicCorrado (Jul 24, 2003)

*Re: (apexslider)*


_Quote, originally posted by *apexslider* »_really...never thought that would cause driveability issues. Makes sense that it may effect the idle. guess I can get one and swap'em out. anything is worth a try at this point

It can destroy your drivablility.


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## [email protected] (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: (apexslider)*

How old are the plugs? They foul out quick. Also, make sure your DV is lubed and the spring isn't too stiff.


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## BubonicCorrado (Jul 24, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_How old are the plugs? They foul out quick. Also, make sure your DV is lubed and the spring isn't too stiff.

Also good suggestions! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*

plugs should be good, barely 2k miles on them. The DV could be a bit tight, the tech at the shop I go to thought maybe it being to lose was causing an issue...but tightening did nothing. I guess I will back it off a few turns and see if that helps...


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## mikebobelak (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (apexslider)*

Also if your idle is "hunting" , try taking some fuel out of the decel file(need a vag com), I also raised my idle as high as it would go, Didnt really need to to keep it running,but it helps on uphill starts with a really light F/W......
Trim instructions should have come with the chip, if not I'll go get mine....



_Modified by mikebobelak at 9:22 AM 12-28-2006_


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## nplunger (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (mikebobelak)*

im having the same problems with my vrt. It idles funny and when i shift it gives itself a little gas or holds itself there for a second. at low rpms it like studers and gives itself gas, then lets off, then repeat the porocess until i get the rpms up. At full throttle it runs great. Ill look for the vac leak again. im also gonna replace the plugs. this week. It just happened one day the wierdest thing


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## vee_rub (May 18, 2006)

im in the same boat here


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: (vee_rub)*

now I'm having a new issue... 
after driving for about 250 miles, road trip style, I parked the car for a couple of hours. When I went to start it up, it basically told me to F off! I noticed the negative terminal was a bit lose, it couldn't be tightened any more so I replaced it. Car fired right up, but wouldn't take any revs. As soon as I manually started to rev the motor (at the throttle body) it was falling on its face and stumbling like crazy. So I did the one thing I knew how, unplugged the 02's again, and it ran perfect. BUT, today on my way home (back from the 250 mile road trip) I stopped at a rest stop and it took me about 15 minutes to get the **** fired up again. And when it does start it barely grabs, it will grab at about 200rpm and try to pull its way up to idle. It makes it, but an odd issue when the power seems to be fine when its driving. That starting issue would remind me of a compression issue...I didn't really get after it to make 100% sure, but the power feels the same in high gear.
The topper, my car rolled down a hill backwards and hit a barn, insurance may total it, it's been one hell of a week


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## abt cup (Aug 1, 2000)

*Re: (apexslider)*

Try re-adapting the ECU/throttle body?


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: (abt cup)*


_Quote, originally posted by *abt cup* »_Try re-adapting the ECU/throttle body?

c2 said to not do that and see if it will "learn" on it's own...so far I'm thinking not. I'm starting to wonder if it's just the chip


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## abt cup (Aug 1, 2000)

*Re: (apexslider)*

My car was having an issue where after I fixed all my vaccum leaks the car was still running rough and the CEL was still coming on.
One day I just decided to clear the ECU...and viola! The CEL was gone and the rough running was gone too.
I thougt the ECU was supposed to adapt to the fixes...but it never did.
Maybe the TPS is bad?


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: (abt cup)*


_Quote, originally posted by *abt cup* »_My car was having an issue where after I fixed all my vaccum leaks the car was still running rough and the CEL was still coming on.
One day I just decided to clear the ECU...and viola! The CEL was gone and the rough running was gone too.
I thougt the ECU was supposed to adapt to the fixes...but it never did.
Maybe the TPS is bad?

that's my next step, my buddy with vag-com is helping me later on this week with that....fingers crossed. We checked the TPS and it seemed to be fine. If this doesn't work I found a guy that will re program my ECU based on my setup. Not cheap, but this is getting to be a real pain in the a$$. I ditched my EIP software because it ran like crap, got the C2 and it's better, but it's still not where it should be.


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## BubonicCorrado (Jul 24, 2003)

*Re: (apexslider)*


_Quote, originally posted by *apexslider* »_I ditched my EIP software because it ran like crap, got the C2 and it's better, but it's still not where it should be.

Welcome to the world of chip tuning my friend.


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## CannuckCorradoVR6T (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (apexslider)*


_Quote, originally posted by *apexslider* »_
......My issue : at part throttle, anything under 25%, the car wants to buck and jerk. This issue goes away after 2600RPM but makes it a real pain to just cruise city streets if your in traffic.... ..... Also, when shifting gears, the idle will hang at exactly where you lifted to shift. It does it at any rpm and any engine speed.....but not all the time. The last issue I'm having is trying to do roll ons. If I start a pull at under 3000rpm it bucks and feels like it pulls timing all the way through the rpm's, the power just isn't there. But if I throw the ish down into third (on the freeway,which is usually around 4000rpm) and go WOT it pulls like a raped ape to 7000rpm in 3rd 4th and 5th.
I cant figure it out, but before I send my chip back to C2 to see if there's a issue with it, I thought it would be worth asking you guys to see if there's something I'm over looking.
Thanks

I am experiencing the same issue. At very light throttle, massive engine buck, and no related codes. I am also experiencing the rev's hanging on between shifts intermittently. 
Already replaced MAF to no avail, swapped coilpacks with another used one - same problem.
Wideband indicates lean at cruise, really lean when the bucking starts, fine at WOT.
Fed up beyond belief.
My setup: OBD2 conversion, 4" maf, C2 chip, #30 injectors, stock compression, unintercooled, 10psi (8.75 psi spring)


_Modified by CannuckCorradoVR6T at 9:39 PM 1-2-2007_


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (CannuckCorradoVR6T)*

You guys with the bucking at light throttle this is ~new issue.
(new = within the last year)
I'll ask all the ~obvious questions:
re-routed BOV?
no pluming leaks? 
o2 sensor plugged in?
2ndary air on the car and functioning properly?
Any CEL codes?
I realize that you have 30# inj.
Question: are these Bosch 30# Red Top inj. or Accel 30# inj.?
These are the inj. that software was orginally done for.
I have not tested any other inj. (although they may work fine)

-Jeff


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## CannuckCorradoVR6T (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (Jefnes3)*

I am pulling an both O2 codes, but they were there before the bucking. I have removed the secondary air injection pump from my car, has been gone for some time now. 
I have noticed a sulfur smell recently, presumably due to a bad cat (and probably caused by removing my air injection system).
I have checked the fuel pressure at idle, and it is fine. I have yet to check it at cruise, but, the wideband is indicating rich at wot. 
I find that I can keep the car from bucking by watching my wideband and when it starts to go lean, let off the throttle a little. This means i either have to accelerate very very slowly or nearly WOT and higher to avoid bucking.
I have tried:
tested wiring for continuity and voltage at maf
new maf
swapped used coilpacks
fuel filter
fuel pressure at idle
unplugged maf
unplugged TPS
unplugged coolant temp sensor
no obvious plumbing leaks
recirculated BOV (always has been)
definitely Bosch red top injectors
I would just like to note that when I first changed the car to OBD2 a few months ago the car ran good but it displayed a slight hesitation upon fast upshifts. I believe the hanging revs were intermittent at that point as well.
Soon thereafter, I turned the boost up to 8.75 lbs and changed the plugs NGK BKR7E gapped to .022-.025. Car ran good but still showed signs of hesitation after fast upshifts.
Now, the car bucks like crazy at part throttle. I thought I had a fix when I tested someone elses MAF, but when my brand new MAF arrived, no luck.

_Modified by CannuckCorradoVR6T at 11:00 PM 1-2-2007_


_Modified by CannuckCorradoVR6T at 11:08 PM 1-2-2007_


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## Bucketmaster (Mar 19, 2004)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (CannuckCorradoVR6T)*

Fyi it takes very little time to test your coolant temp sensor and you really shouldnt unplug it if its running. All you have to do is unplug the sensor, take a multimeter or ohmmeter and put 1 lead on the top left tab in the sensor and take the other and put it on the top right tab. That I believe is ecm coolant temp. It should in the 1000s like 4k ish when cold and in the hundreds when hot depending. The bottom two tabs on the sensor are temp guage coolant temp (I think, they could be switched but either way they will have similiar readings) . If you have open or no resistance at all on either the sensor is faulty


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## CannuckCorradoVR6T (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (Ihatedmvgoped)*

I will try that, I haven't tested that one yet. I am also thinking about hooking my wideband up to the factory O2 signal wire to make the computer happy and maybe log some accurate AFR's with VAG-COM.


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_You guys with the bucking at light throttle this is ~new issue.(new = within the last year) 

Sounds good, thanks for being on top of it. I wish I lived closer to you guys. I have a vagcom log of the injector pulse width, but I only have one serial port, so I do not have a matching log from my wideband. It's surprisingly hard to tell what is what... still working on getting you reasonable data.
Is any one seeing these symptoms that isn't a 3.0L?

_Quote »_
re-routed BOV?
no pluming leaks? 
o2 sensor plugged in?
2ndary air on the car and functioning properly?
Any CEL codes?
Question: are these Bosch 30# Red Top inj. or Accel 30# inj.?


*The good:*
Both 02 sensors hooked up, secondary air working well (new kombi), bosch 30# straight from kinetic via C2, rerouted BOV per kinetic kit. New fuel filter, adapted T/B. New plugs, gapped 024, newish wires. Vacuum at idle : 20", max boost : 5.5psi. Pulls like a race horse at WOT if I feather around the bucking/hesitation. Was a freaking blast at the track. Left and Right coolant sensors are 1k miles and 20k miles old (I had them both go bad before the turbo kit).
*The Maybe:*
Front 02 sensor is actually the simulated narrowband output from my wideband. The only CEL i'm pulling is a faulty heater circiut in that 02 sensor because I don't have a resistor across it yet. (800ohms is too small for the record) The MAF sensor is 120k miles old.
*The Bad:*
1. I'm having some sort of throttle body problem where when I totally lift off the gas the car acts as if I'm still pressing it in slightly. At cruise, instead of seeing the AFR go to 21.0, it will go rich to 12.0 and will keep its speed (not accelerate, not coast). The T/B adapts fine in vagcom.
2. The lean spike as noted in the graphs from way too long ago (i'm a slacker) == the cause for this thread
3. My AFR at cruise is lean lean lean ~ 16-17.
4. The plug on #6 looked a little black / carbony.
I'm hoping someone can read my tea leaves here. Is there a good DIY on finding vacuum/boost leaks that I should try? I don't suspect leaks, but i'm willing to try.
-m


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_You guys with the bucking at light throttle this is ~new issue.
(new = within the last year)
I'll ask all the ~obvious questions:
re-routed BOV?
no pluming leaks? 
o2 sensor plugged in?
2ndary air on the car and functioning properly?
Any CEL codes?
I realize that you have 30# inj.
Question: are these Bosch 30# Red Top inj. or Accel 30# inj.?
These are the inj. that software was orginally done for.
I have not tested any other inj. (although they may work fine)

-Jeff

my software is under 6 months old
BOV re-routed
no plumbing leaks
02's were plugged in when all this started
NO secondary air on my car
the only cel is due to engine speed, I don't even get one for secondary air
I have green top 42# injectors. which is what was recomended by you with my allplication (according to the shop).


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (CannuckCorradoVR6T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CannuckCorradoVR6T* »_
I find that I can keep the car from bucking by watching my wideband and when it starts to go lean, let off the throttle a little. This means i either have to accelerate very very slowly or nearly WOT and higher to avoid bucking.
I would just like to note that when I first changed the car to OBD2 a few months ago the car ran good but it displayed a slight hesitation upon fast upshifts. I believe the hanging revs were intermittent at that point as well.
Soon thereafter, I turned the boost up to 8.75 lbs and changed the plugs NGK BKR7E gapped to .022-.025. Car ran good but still showed signs of hesitation after fast upshifts.
Now, the car bucks like crazy at part throttle. I thought I had a fix when I tested someone elses MAF, but when my brand new MAF arrived, no luck.

_Modified by CannuckCorradoVR6T at 11:00 PM 1-2-2007_

_Modified by CannuckCorradoVR6T at 11:08 PM 1-2-2007_

mine doesn't like fast upshifts either, it falls on its face at any fast shift over 6k rpm. I thought maybe it was due to my cams....but I guess not. 
The whole accelerating really slow or really fast also applies with my issue.


_Modified by apexslider at 10:17 PM 1-2-2007_


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (apexslider)*


_Quote, originally posted by *apexslider* »_mine doesn't like fast upshifts either, it falls on its face at any fast shift over 6k rpm. I thought maybe it was due to my cams....but I guess not. 
The whole accelerating really slow or really fast also applies with my issue.


If you aren't having problems until 6k than that is a different problem ... I'm guessing you're running out of injector or fuel pump capacity. 
Accelerating slow will help most any problem on a turbo car -- I don't think it's specific to any one problem. You don't worry about lag and transients as much if you're just slowly ramping up... unless it bucks.








-m


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (maxslug)*


_Quote, originally posted by *maxslug* »_
If you aren't having problems until 6k than that is a different problem ... I'm guessing you're running out of injector or fuel pump capacity. 
Accelerating slow will help most any problem on a turbo car -- I don't think it's specific to any one problem. You don't worry about lag and transients as much if you're just slowly ramping up... unless it bucks.








-m 

should have been more clear, it hesitates on fast shifts, but falls completely on its face at over 6k. 
you don't think 42# injectors will fuel 11psi on a 3L? The fuel pump I could see, since its the one that came with the EIP kit I wont hold much faith in it. And if I do moderate rolls ons it bucks like crazy all the way. it seems to want all or nothing


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## CannuckCorradoVR6T (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (apexslider)*

Yep, I'm either holding up traffic or blowing the tires off.
BTW, did you mention that your engine speed sensor is illuminating your cel?


_Modified by CannuckCorradoVR6T at 10:34 AM 1-3-2007_


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (apexslider)*


_Quote, originally posted by *apexslider* »_should have been more clear, it hesitates on fast shifts, but falls completely on its face at over 6k. 
you don't think 42# injectors will fuel 11psi on a 3L? The fuel pump I could see, since its the one that came with the EIP kit I wont hold much faith in it. And if I do moderate rolls ons it bucks like crazy all the way. it seems to want all or nothing

Ahh ok, you've got a secondary fuel pump and big injectors ... game on








So anyone seeing these symptomps who's got a stock bore? 2.8, 2.9? I can't see how that would make that big a difference, but it's a constant throughout the posters here.
-m


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## [email protected] (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (maxslug)*

My car used to die out up top, but at higher boost levels and boost would dissapear after high rpm upshifts. Turns out the flimsy dryer ducting the previous owner had for part of the intake piping was actually closing shut at certain times. Make sure you have hard piping to the turbo and no leaks.


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## BLKBOX (Jan 17, 2005)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle ([email protected])*

I found some bad vacuum lines and a blown wastegate gasket on the downpipe side...I haven't gotten it back from the exhaust shop yet so we'll see in the morning if it cures _my_ part throttle bucking issues.
setup:
Stock block @ 9:1
C2 Stg II, 42# injectors
T04 60-1 .58
runnin' 15psi daily (took out the boost controller to run 10psi WG pressure)



_Modified by FMF at 3:58 PM 1-3-2007_


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (FMF)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FMF* »_I found some bad vacuum lines and a blown wastegate gasket on the downpipe side...I haven't gotten it back from the exhaust shop yet so we'll see in the morning if it cures _my_ part throttle bucking issues.

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif how did you find the leaks out of curiosity? 
-m


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## BLKBOX (Jan 17, 2005)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (maxslug)*


_Quote, originally posted by *maxslug* »_
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif how did you find the leaks out of curiosity? 
-m

Here's the bad vacuum line, heat was the culprit:








Old piping; Booo, not mandrel bent. I never even bothered to see if they had used mandrel bends:








I took my car to have the exhaust redone, this time at a different shop. Origininally I had a 2.5" DP mated up to the 2.5" exhaust I already had and also had an ATP 3" boost activated dump installed.
Well, the sh!!t sucks so I decided to have the entire thing redone with a 3" ATP downpipe and a full 3" exhaust out the back. When we were pulling it all off we found a mounting bolt had fallen out of the wastegate and blew exhaust all over the bottom of the WG where I couldn't see (it was obvious after we pulled it all). 
All in all I'm glad I'm getting it fixed because I would have never known if I hadn't pulled it all.


_Modified by FMF at 5:03 PM 1-3-2007_


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (CannuckCorradoVR6T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CannuckCorradoVR6T* »_Yep, I'm either holding up traffic or blowing the tires off.
BTW, did you mention that your engine speed sensor is illuminating your cel?

_Modified by CannuckCorradoVR6T at 10:34 AM 1-3-2007_

Max speed and engine speed. They are related to going past the 7krpm mark and doing 150mph (indicated) down the highway. The vehicle speed sensor _was_ bad, but I got a new cluster and cleared everything. The bad speed sensor seemed to have no bearing on anything what so ever.


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## CannuckCorradoVR6T (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (apexslider)*


_Quote, originally posted by *apexslider* »_Max speed and engine speed. They are related to going past the 7krpm mark and doing 150mph (indicated) down the highway. The vehicle speed sensor _was_ bad, but I got a new cluster and cleared everything. The bad speed sensor seemed to have no bearing on anything what so ever.

Engine speed sensor will definitely cause a bucking issue if it is not working properly, usually rpm dependent (same speed every time). Mine used to do this a while back with the old OBD1 Split Sec box, it didnt matter whether I was in gear or revving in my driveway, it would stumble at about 3200 everytime.
Now, it seems like load or pedal position has more to do with my problems.
Also, just speculating, the vehicle speed sensor may be used for load calculations.


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (FMF)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FMF* »_

I took my car to have the exhaust redone, this time at a different shop. Origininally I had a 2.5" DP mated up to the 2.5" exhaust I already had and also had an ATP 3" boost activated dump installed.

_Modified by FMF at 5:03 PM 1-3-2007_


Nice to see someone else giving up the half-ass 2.5" exhaust w/ cutout idea. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Honda Eatin VW (Feb 17, 2005)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (cabzilla)*

im running kinetics kit....bosch #30 injectors c2 stage1....idles fine, but i get the same hesitations between fast shifts cuts out for a second then rips like an animal, im begining to think its just the chip


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## BLKBOX (Jan 17, 2005)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (cabzilla)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cabzilla* »_

Nice to see someone else giving up the half-ass 2.5" exhaust w/ cutout idea. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

yeah, it's a good idea for, let's say, a stock 1.8T that doesn't want to buy a 3" system and wants to go back to stock some day. My VRT needed some breathing room, though, and it sounds like a mean son of a b!!tch now.


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## CannuckCorradoVR6T (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (Honda Eatin VW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Honda Eatin VW* »_.... begining to think its just the chip









I think its VW/bosch's ambiguous diagnostics, not C2. The very reason I switched to OBD2 was for better diagnosis of problems.Very frustrating.


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (CannuckCorradoVR6T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CannuckCorradoVR6T* »_
I think its VW/bosch's ambiguous diagnostics, not C2. The very reason I switched to OBD2 was for better diagnosis of problems.Very frustrating.

I don't want to knock c2, they're set up runs 10 times better than my eip stuff did. But I'm starting to think it's the chip too. Its not impossible to think that maybe a batch of chips went ary, or maybe there's some other issue. I want to keep my c2 stuff, but I also want my car to run right. I'm hoping there's a way I can make both happen. Maybe c2 will swap chips with me for a new one to see if I have the same problems....


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## [email protected] (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (apexslider)*

I had a friend who had a hot starting problem in his vf 24v once and it turned out to be a bad solder on the chip to the ecu. Makes me think it could be chip related, but not really the software.


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_I had a friend who had a hot starting problem in his vf 24v once and it turned out to be a bad solder on the chip to the ecu. Makes me think it could be chip related, but not really the software.

so if ours aren't soldered then that would really only leave the chip? is it possible to get bad connections between the chip and actual ecu? if yes, would it cause this type of issue?


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## Vdubsolo (Apr 11, 2004)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (apexslider)*


_Quote, originally posted by *apexslider* »_
so if ours aren't soldered then that would really only leave the chip? is it possible to get bad connections between the chip and actual ecu? if yes, would it cause this type of issue?

the prongs on the chip could be a little mangled and possibly not making a proper connection..Have you removed and reinstalled the chip before? If your not careful when removing\installing the chip this can occur..


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (Vdubsolo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vdubsolo* »_
the prongs on the chip could be a little mangled and possibly not making a proper connection..Have you removed and reinstalled the chip before? If your not careful when removing\installing the chip this can occur..

it was done by the shop my car was at, I've neve personally removed or installed one.


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## CannuckCorradoVR6T (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (apexslider)*

Mine has been in for~10,000kms. Unless it jarred loose somehow, those PLCC's are pretty positive.


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (CannuckCorradoVR6T)*

C2 is handling the situation as we speak. Thumbs up to Jeff for all the help http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## CannuckCorradoVR6T (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (apexslider)*

Did he find a glitch? I thought about going back to NA with the stock chip to see if the problem still persists, but I dont have an OBD2 intake boot.


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: VRT w/ C2 bucking and crazy idle (CannuckCorradoVR6T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CannuckCorradoVR6T* »_Did he find a glitch? I thought about going back to NA with the stock chip to see if the problem still persists, but I dont have an OBD2 intake boot.

not sure, he's just letting me try a different chip to see if clears any thing up...fingers crossed


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

RE: loose chip
I don't think you can have a "bad chip" and still drive the car. If the ECU can't read the chip, the whole car is going to shut off. There is a remote possibility that map data in the chip gets corrupted, but there is more than likely a CRC of some kind to check against that.
-m


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## nplunger (Sep 10, 2003)

*checked TPS*

so i tried to figure out why mine has been having problems and i found the throttle position sensor to have voltage less than what the Bently manual said it should. so i unpluged it and the car would idle hi but i idle at the same RPM istead of fluctuating like its been doing. So im gonna buy a new one and see if that fixes it if it does ill let u guys know! I hate when my car is so nice then something happens with it and i gotta spend money on it instead of fun parts. I might take pics as well.~Nick


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

update: Prior to previously thought, if you have any CEL at all that involves the lamba control, all lambda control and fuel trim is off. So the CEL for my 02 sensor heater circuit was disabling all fuel trim. Some of the bucking is gone, however...
Cruise is still WAY too lean 16-17 and my downpipe is snowy white.. not good. I'm trying to diagnose the MAF as the possible culprit. 
** I'm not convinced that this is the chip's fault at this point **
Jeff : I suggest that you take the base map (for when a CEL is thrown) and richen it up quite a bit so that for when the 02 sensor craps out or something else happens, the ecu does not go straight into leanland. I'm not sure if this is practical or not.
more updates when I have em.


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## CannuckCorradoVR6T (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: (maxslug)*

So I should replace my upstream O2 sensor? I didn't realize that having an O2 code would stop all fuel trim.
BTW, I have noticed that the car doesn't really seem to buck at all when cold, but gets gradually worse as it warms up....to the point of looking like a jackass at every intersection.


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: (CannuckCorradoVR6T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CannuckCorradoVR6T* »_So I should replace my upstream O2 sensor? I didn't realize that having an O2 code would stop all fuel trim.
BTW, I have noticed that the car doesn't really seem to buck at all when cold, but gets gradually worse as it warms up....to the point of looking like a jackass at every intersection.

I guess my wording here is bad.. "all fuel trim" makes it sound like it won't fuel the car or something... but the lambda correction to the fuel trim and the long term adaptation is all turned off on my car right now as far as I can tell.
I would say that you need to get rid of all CELs before the lambda control will work right.
-m
edit:spelling


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## CannuckCorradoVR6T (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: (maxslug)*

Did your car have monster buck at light throttle? Clearing codes from the O2 system helped, but didn't solve the problem?
You are OBD2 right?


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: (CannuckCorradoVR6T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CannuckCorradoVR6T* »_Did your car have monster buck at light throttle? Clearing codes from the O2 system helped, but didn't solve the problem?
You are OBD2 right?

Monster buck, no... more of a bad hesitation and some missing and a little bit of bucking when cold. I was more worried about the uberleanness of my cruise AFR, since I do a lot of highway cruising.
Clearing the codes isn't enough -- you have to make sure they don't come back... otherwise once the car heats up and it tries to go into closed loop again it gets hosed. 
yep, obd-ii, mk3, 30#.
-m


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## CannuckCorradoVR6T (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: (maxslug)*


_Quote, originally posted by *maxslug* »_
Clearing the codes isn't enough -- you have to make sure they don't come back... otherwise once the car heats up and it tries to go into closed loop again it gets hosed. 
yep, obd-ii, mk3, 30#.
-m

Excellent. Yes, I meant replacing the faulty parts. Sorry, correct wording >me
I will get that light off if it kills me. I miss driving normally. I think I'll continue my expensive process of elimination with front O2 and CTS.


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (maxslug)*


_Quote, originally posted by *maxslug* »_update: Prior to previously thought, if you have any CEL at all that involves the lamba control, all lambda control and fuel trim is off. So the CEL for my 02 sensor heater circuit was disabling all fuel trim. Some of the bucking is gone, however...
Cruise is still WAY too lean 16-17 and my downpipe is snowy white.. not good. I'm trying to diagnose the MAF as the possible culprit. 
** I'm not convinced that this is the chip's fault at this point **
Jeff : I suggest that you take the base map (for when a CEL is thrown) and richen it up quite a bit so that for when the 02 sensor craps out or something else happens, the ecu does not go straight into leanland. I'm not sure if this is practical or not.
more updates when I have em.

ARGHH I can't seem to win eh???
We used to get grilled for having folks unplug the o2 sensor so they would not see a lean condition under boost, and tuning that was ~too rich.
Now we have proper o2 control.
If you plug in the o2 sensor (fix all o2 codes and keep the air pump)
you must keep the air pump or no o2 control.
The o2 control will work and the your lean cruize issue will be sorted.
If you get the o2 control to work for just ~30 minutes the fuel trims will
dial up and then if you unplug the sensor you'll have your 'extra' fuel.
You could also just add a little fuel pressure.
Also look for ANY tiny pluming leaks... ~manual boost controler = small leak(s). these are sources of unmetered air. Even try clocking the MAF houisng. i.e. loosen the hose clamp and simply rotate the maf
housing ~45-90deg. I have seen this have subtle effects on
fueling becuase the 4" MAF has no straightener.
I don't doubt that your widebands says ~16-17 cruzing afr, but
the 12V bascially won't run that lean. it misfires before you hit 16.
I'm working on a soultion to help...








-Jeff


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_ARGHH I can't seem to win eh???

Take the props as they're given -- you've got tons of street cred and the best/only working ECU tunes for these cars.


_Quote »_
We used to get grilled for having folks unplug the o2 sensor so they would not see a lean condition under boost, and tuning that was ~too rich.
Now we have proper o2 control.
If you plug in the o2 sensor (fix all o2 codes and keep the air pump)
you must keep the air pump or no o2 control.
The o2 control will work and the your lean cruize issue will be sorted.
If you get the o2 control to work for just ~30 minutes the fuel trims will
dial up and then if you unplug the sensor you'll have your 'extra' fuel.


I'm now officially totally CEL free, but I don't have my wideband hooked up anymore, so i'm dependent on the VAGCOM values for what's going on. Driveability is MUCH BETTER. I'm hoping the lambda control will adapt some more and it'll get better.

_Quote »_
You could also just add a little fuel pressure.


I've seriously considered an adjustable fuel pressure regulator (NOT RISING RATE y'ALL!)... I just need a linear shift of the AFR curve.

_Quote »_
Also look for ANY tiny pluming leaks... ~manual boost controler = small leak(s). these are sources of unmetered air. Even try clocking the MAF houisng. i.e. loosen the hose clamp and simply rotate the maf
housing ~45-90deg. I have seen this have subtle effects on
fueling becuase the 4" MAF has no straightener.
I don't doubt that your widebands says ~16-17 cruzing afr, but
the 12V bascially won't run that lean. it misfires before you hit 16.
I'm working on a soultion to help...










I've been on the lookout... sprayed stuff w/ windex.. no luck yet. I'll try clocking the MAF housing. You da man, thanks
-m


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: (maxslug)*

Thanks for the help Jeff. My car is running like it should. Still a little buck at light part throttle, but no where near as bad as it was. Now lets just hope it stays that way!


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (apexslider)*

Make sure the front o2 is ~working, (watch block 001, to see that
lambda correction is moving around)
The 1st ~30 minutes of easy driving with some minutes at idle
to get the fuel trims sorted, and you should be good.
Basically just triming in the difference between my test car and yours.
Idle fuel trim is the most sensitve with large inj,
this affects throttle tip in and idle recovery. (this is actually an
'additive' trim where as the part throtle trim is 'multiplicative')

-Jeff


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## apexslider (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*

front o2 is working good. I haven't really had the chance to do a whole lot of driving with it, about 40 miles since the new chip, but like I said, it's a whole new car. I tried a roll on out on the freeway in 3rd gear, around 4k rpm when the cams really start kicking in all hell broke lose...and so did the tires. Fingers crossed it doesn't go back to it's old ways!


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## CannuckCorradoVR6T (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*

Well, just installing a new front O2 today. Hopefully this rids me of any CEL, and I re-gain O2 control. BTW, the old sensor has creme coloured deposits at the tip~lean?


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## CannuckCorradoVR6T (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: (CannuckCorradoVR6T)*

The car seems much, much better for the initial 50kms after the O2 replacement, still some hesitation between shifts and at light throttle. We will see as the week progresses. I have not cleared the codes or reset the TB, but I did unplug the battery for about 30 sec. CE light is still on. I am cautiously optimistic about the results.


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## CannuckCorradoVR6T (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: (CannuckCorradoVR6T)*

Well, the bucking is back- worse than ever today. The O2 replacement seems to have solved my idle mixture, but still getting massive bucking when going into boost. Especially bad on takeoff, and lower RPM. Just like before, lean at cruise and relatively normal AFR in boost, except when hiccupping, when it slides quickly into the lean area. I am also getting a combination of exhaust backfire and sometimes and intake backfire.
It _feels_ like a bad crank sensor, though I have swapped sensors and no code comes up. Rippin my hair out here.


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## BubonicCorrado (Jul 24, 2003)

*Re: (CannuckCorradoVR6T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CannuckCorradoVR6T* »_Well, the bucking is back- worse than ever today. The O2 replacement seems to have solved my idle mixture, but still getting massive bucking when going into boost. Especially bad on takeoff, and lower RPM. Just like before, lean at cruise and relatively normal AFR in boost, except when hiccupping, when it slides quickly into the lean area. I am also getting a combination of exhaust backfire and sometimes and intake backfire.
It _feels_ like a bad crank sensor, though I have swapped sensors and no code comes up. Rippin my hair out here.

Check spark plugs, plug wires, and coil pack.
In that order.
Then get back to me.


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## whiteriot (Nov 10, 2004)

*Re: (BubonicCorrado)*

Some of these problems sound similar to ones i've encountered and still deal with. I got an obd2 vr with the kinetic stg 1 kit on it and i'll get backfire's every now and then usually shifting into 3rd it seems or just cruising and hitting the throttle. There is also hesitation sometimes under hard accelleration after a shift which is annoying as hell. this was after i talked to shawn at kinetics and he said to unplug the 02 sensors which i did cause before that my idle was all over the damn place and stalling out. checked for vacuum leaks, replaced plugs (gapped accordingly), wires, and coil pack. After wot i can smell rotten eggs which i would assume is the cat going on me, would this cause some issues? i assume it would.


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## nplunger (Sep 10, 2003)

*Re: (whiteriot)*

i just fixed the problem with my vrt it had the idle problem and i bought a new isv and its all better. you might wanna give it a try.


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## ACschnitzer23 (Nov 3, 2004)

*Re: (CannuckCorradoVR6T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CannuckCorradoVR6T* »_Well, the bucking is back- worse than ever today. The O2 replacement seems to have solved my idle mixture, but still getting massive bucking when going into boost. Especially bad on takeoff, and lower RPM. Just like before, lean at cruise and relatively normal AFR in boost, except when hiccupping, when it slides quickly into the lean area. I am also getting a combination of exhaust backfire and sometimes and intake backfire.
It _feels_ like a bad crank sensor, though I have swapped sensors and no code comes up. Rippin my hair out here.

Any solution to this? I am having the SAME exact issue, massive bucking at low rpm/part throttle, really bad in first gear, when I push in the pedal nothing happens, then all of a sudden a slam and the car starts accelerating quickly. I am also getting intake and exhaust backfire, especially when bogging. I swapped MAFS, and o2 sensors, nothing.


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## [email protected] (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: (ACschnitzer23)*

Do you run a DV or diverted BOV? Any possible intake leaks after the MAF?


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## bluegrape (Nov 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*

i'm running the green tops , 4" maf,walbo setup on my kinetic kit. only code is removed air pump. I'm having similiar issues. light bucking/misses/hesitation up to about 2,600rpms or so. car runs great in boost (15psi) and runs good in cool weather. the part throttle issues are the only problems I'm having. To eveyone with the supplied VAG DV how are you routing you vac lines? is the DV installed the way it is in this pic ? 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3204671
I have heard that part thottle is better installed "backwards" FYI my part throttle issues were party resolved from gapping down the plugs to .024. only really gives me troulbe in light throttle applications in 1st and 2nd? seems pretty common after reading this thread.~Wetzel


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## ACschnitzer23 (Nov 3, 2004)

*Re: (bluegrape)*

I am crazy bucking in first and second gears, Only when warm though. It has strong hesistation in any cruising gear when gas pedal is pressed. The gas pedal needs to be pressed nearly 50 percent before the engine responds to any throttle input. Actually the car slows down quite a bit and backfires through the intake a little. Then when it responds to the throttle input it accelerates violently. Its a nightmare in traffic. Heres my setup:
OBDI 
ECU: 021 906 258 BM 
C2 36# with bosch white injectors
3bar fpr
NGKBKR7 plugs gapped at .022
Front mount intercooler
Replaced with no luck:
MAF (stalls when unplugged sometimes)
Throttle Pos sensor (TPS)
o2 sensor ( i replaced with a used one and had to splice wires, It was running really rich before this, but without the hesitation and bucking 
prior to replacement.) 
I am getting frusterated. Never had this problem before and the only codes I am getting on Vag-Com are for a disconnected ISV



_Modified by ACschnitzer23 at 1:01 AM 6-27-2007_


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