# 16v aba swap help!



## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

i have an 82 quantum coupe with the early CIS, not sure which version they call it. i plan on doing a 16v swap. i want it to be as simple as possible, with stuff i got kicking around the garage. i want to run it off my stock CIS setup, i'm curious if it'll fuel it. its gonna be an aba bottom end with 9a pistons, a 16v KR head, a mild cam upgrage, and a audi v8 header. i know typically you need to wire in the 16v distributor, i'm gonna my distributor fit cause it's vacuum advanced. any thoughts?


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

after some research, i've determined that i have CIS-L. its recomended that i wire up a 16v knock box.... essentially if i'm gonna run anywhere close to 10:1 compression, i need to have the knock box to adjust the timing in the case of detonation. so, that means i have to run the 16v distributor. 


also, i will i need a "bigger" WUR? i've found conflicting info.....


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

mr sarcastic said:


> . . . 82 quantum coupe with the early CIS, . . . i plan on doing a 16v swap. i want it to be as simple as possible, with stuff i got kicking around the garage. i want to run it off my stock CIS setup, i'm curious if it'll fuel it. . . . a 16v KR head . . . i know typically you need to wire in the 16v distributor, i'm gonna my distributor fit cause it's vacuum advanced. any thoughts?


I don't know a lot about the Quantum so manifolds and air intake and the like I would have to do some research on before commenting on any of that. KR head is the same as all other 16v 1.8L heads so don't go out of your way looking to find and buy one. A common CIS system will run the engine fine for getting around town but if you want it to run good you will need some parts. If your CIS air sensor is the small 60mm version then you will need to swap in the 80mm version and the fuel distributor to match. Years ago VWMS fuel mixture units for 16v engines were being sold for under $200, bought three back then, so if you can locate one that would be great. In any case try to locate a "thin rim" air sensor and fuel distributor if you can, but the standard one will be OK too. Part I colored I just can't get a good grip on, what are you exactly saying?



mr sarcastic said:


> . . . i've determined that i have CIS-L. its recomended that i wire up a 16v knock box.... essentially if i'm gonna run anywhere close to 10:1 compression, i need to have the knock box to adjust the timing in the case of detonation. so, that means i have to run the 16v distributor. . . also, i will i need a "bigger" WUR? i've found conflicting info.....


CIS w/Lambda will work if it has the full throttle switch. The KR engine was basic CIS but had enrichment where the Lambda without the full throttle switch I believ has no enrichment really. You do not need a knock sensor ignition as long as you use at least super gasoline. The KR had no knock sensor and a one of a kind transistorized igntion system. You can find the ignition control box often on German Ebay if you want that route. You can use a Polo ignition distributor modified (shaft drilled and 16v distributor drive installed) to fit the 16v engine. They can be had in mechanical/vacuum versions with Hall senders for a basic ignition setup (used often with dual carbs). A standard WUR will work fine until you can locate one with enrichment. Audi turbos had them and the KR too so look around.


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

WaterWheels said:


> Part I colored I just can't get a good grip on, what are you exactly saying?


most of the time you need to use the original 16v ignition distributor when swapping a 16v into a car that originally had a engine block mounted distributor. since mine is going to be an aba, i'm going to use the original, vacuum controlled, engine block mounted distributor from my 1.7l. if i can get away with using good gas, maybe even a little octane booster, i'll skip getting a knock box. 

as for what 16v head i'm going to use, i need to clarify. after even more research, i was mistaken by referring to the head that i'm going to use as KR. the head i have is from a 3.6l audi v8 which i parted out last year. its essentially the same as any vw 16v, just have to close up a couple coolant passages. 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3522993

i already have the manifold figured out, its gonna be a custom sri made by my friends father. essentially everything so far i've got has been sitting around my garage. i dont really want to spend any significant money on this. with that said, how do i know if my current 1.7l has a full throttle switch? as for the WUR, is this something that can be switched out with relative ease? if i need to spend a little cash on getting an audi one, i'm cool with that.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

mr sarcastic said:


> most of the time you need to use the original 16v ignition distributor when swapping a 16v into a car that originally had a engine block mounted distributor. since mine is going to be an aba, i'm going to use the original, vacuum controlled, engine block mounted distributor from my 1.7l. . . i was mistaken by referring to the head that i'm going to use as KR. the head i have is from a 3.6l audi v8 which i parted out last year. its essentially the same as any vw 16v, just have to close up a couple coolant passages. . . with that said, how do i know if my current 1.7l has a full throttle switch? as for the WUR, is this something that can be switched out with relative ease?


I'll go backwards if that's alright, like you have a choice  WUR is a simple swap, two fuel lines (same) an electrical connection (same) and adding a vacuum hose for the enrichment function. Bolt pattern is the same but might be a little taller which is no problem (can't remember if the height is the same). The throttle body will have a switch which is activated when the throttle is almost at full open, I believe the part number for the Lambda control is different but don't quote me.

Have seen the Audi head a few times, pictures but not in hand, and I am sure it will work. I did notice there were a few passages and such that were different and if you can work around them, blocking or whatever, then it should be fine. Was the casting not different at both camshaft ends? Anyhow, if you are sure it will be OK then great.

Using your 1.7 ignition distributor could be a challange. First there is the room factor, does the ABA extra few millimeters give enough room to install it without interference with the intake? Gear and mounting size is different, you will need the kits sold or do it yourself there. You will need a block-off for the head, but maybe that is handled with that stuff I remember seeing on the Audi heads? Ignition wires might be an issue even if the distributor itself squeezes in there. To be honest I would drop a few dollars for the 16v set-up, PL or KR and call it a day. Can't cost all that much, used distributor maybe $25, ignition control box maybe another $40, coil I am sure is different so $10 used and do your own wiring which you should be able to do for next to nothing. Will be interseting to see if the distributor will fit and work, have you already checked that part out?


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

I was gonna use what little money I have put aside for this project to buy a set of mild cams. The stock Audi ones won't work, but any 16v cam will bolt on to the head. 

As for the ignition distributor, there is a Saab distributor cap that fits our distributors, and it angle's the wires 90 degrees away from the intake. I have a friend that did a carbed 20/20 swap and used the stock aba distributor and cap. He just notched the intake a I little, I don't plan on going that far but it's an option. 

As for the gearing, I was planning on swapping over intermediate shaft from the 1.7l to the aba. I know they're interchangeable from the 9a block to the aba, I'm crossing my fingers that I can do it with the 1.7 also. If none of that works, I'll break down and grab up the 16v stuff.....


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

mr sarcastic said:


> As for the gearing, I was planning on swapping over intermediate shaft from the 1.7l to the aba. I know they're interchangeable from the 9a block to the aba, I'm crossing my fingers that I can do it with the 1.7 also. If none of that works, I'll break down and grab up the 16v stuff.....


Yeah, I know there are 90 degree caps but it brings up two questions; the cap only fits in one position, so which way will the terminals face and due to the 90 degree bend they are maybe a little taller. The terminal direction is not a problem if you can deal with changing the position of the distributor body, some have a hard time understanding that kind of modification. The possible height increase could be an issue if it does make the cap taller. Like I said, this will be interesting. 

I guess the shaft will "fit" but the oil pump drive gear will be too thick. The 2.0L engines have a trimmed down gear because the #4 rod swings past too close and will either hit or hit whicle making turns. Knew someone who used the 1.8L shaft and could not figure out why making turns, can't remember which way, he would hear a knocking sound. Turned out it was due to the larger shaft gear. Even if the shaft would work OK, the mounting ring would still be required as the mounting base size is different and the hole will be too large. You have some things to work out to get it all together, but as long as time is not big issue you'll get there.


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

Haha, glad you responded to this thread. Lots if good info there, gives me something to look foward to when I get into it. I'll keep this thread updated with the progress. Got to start looking for a wur....


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

Shame you started doing this now. A few years ago I tossed a lot of 16v parts in the garbage, ignition distributors, throttle bodies that were modified, camshafts ans yes, WURs from KR engines along with normal ones. It is so often that I hear or read where people want this or that or wish they could get a hold of a European version of something but when they are up for sale cheap, the desire just seems to vanish.


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

damn..... i'm sure i'll find one on the cheap.


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

so, help me get my head around this. maybe its a stupid question, but i'll ask anyway. how will an audi wur help me fuel? i'm under the impression that the audi unit sense's boost throught the vac port and increase's fueling, how will this help my setup without boost?


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

it will not make a difference on a NON BOOSTED engine.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

mr sarcastic said:


> how will an audi wur help me fuel? i'm under the impression that the audi unit sense's boost throught the vac port and increase's fueling, how will this help my setup without boost?


I'll explain and let you decide. The 16V engine due to it's better breathing tends to run lean at upper engine speeds and during full throttle acceleration, does is more correct really. The original 1.8L 16v sold in Europe, KR code, uses a WUR like the turbo Audis which sense manifold pressure and slightly enrich the mixture when the manifold pressure drops or is low. When VW sold the PL code 16V in the states and later in Europe it used CIS-e which has an enrichment function via the computer but it only really works during wide open throttle conditions. Many people have explained the 16v's lack of a good mixture at upper engine speeds as "making more noise than power". I did try the Audi WUR on my 16v KR engine, before using the VWMS unit, and found it to be slightly too rich for daily street driving but you can adjust them if need be. The original WUR for the KR worked very well under all conditions. This was checked using a wideband sensor and gauge plus a gas analyzer but I have no hard copies so take it for what it's worth.


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

i do plan on running a wideband, i'll get my hands on an audi wur and either way. i'd like to be able to beat on this setup and not worry about melting ****.


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## dogzila22 (Apr 1, 2008)

ellocolindo said:


> it will not make a difference on a NON BOOSTED engine.


I used for my 8v GTI WUR of 16v KR, big difference in third gear you can rev more engine. AUDI WUR is good for car with hotter cam/s


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

Okay, I've been doing some more research and found that some people have made thier wur's adjustable. I've seen a few diy's and it seems pretty simple. Would this be an option for me to make mine add more fuel?


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

Yes and no it the answer to that question. You can move the large plug in or out to adjust the pressure or you can rig up a screw to adjust the pressure, but it is always a compromise. If you set it for high engine speed blasts then the idle and cruz mixture will be too rich and vise versa. There is a way to set both low and high pressure but it still does not adjust with the engine. The adjustments you have seen do not move as the engine load changes. For racing it would be fine. For a regulator which is off and needs to be corrected the adjustments can work well, but as an enrichment method it does not work.


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

That makes sense. I've been looking around and it seems that the Audi unit is pretty hard to track down. Would it not recommended to use a Volvo wur. I've come across saab and BMW stuff too....

As for the rest of the swap, I have my aba block torn down. I need to get 9a rod bushings and press them into the aba rods. I'm gonna splurge and get new rod bearings and piston rings. Little things like this are gonna ruin my budget! I plan on having the stock 1.7l out of the car this coming weekend, no turning back after that.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

mr sarcastic said:


> I've been looking around and it seems that the Audi unit is pretty hard to track down. Would it not recommended to use a Volvo wur. I've come across saab and BMW stuff too....
> 
> Little things like this are gonna ruin my budget!


I don't have any information on any Volvo WURs. I know they did a few turbo engines but I have never heard or looked into their regulators. I can't remember BMW ever doing a CIS based turbo engine. You have to be careful with these regulators as looks can deceive you. Some have vent ports which look the same as what others use for the vacuum connection. Some have altitude correction built in and they also have a vent tube. The vents and connections are also sometimes placed in different locations. So be careful and don't be taken by someone who either does not know or is trying to swindle you. Check the European Ebay sites and you might find the KR version as that engine was sold in a few countries here.

Budgets are made to be over-run. Any time you plan some work on a car and make a budget expect to go 20% over it, it just is so.


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

maybe he found some mercedes CIS pieces, not BMW..

ive never seen a BMW w/ CIS either..


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

WaterWheels said:


> Budgets are made to be over-run. Any time you plan some work on a car and make a budget expect to go 20% over it, it just is so.


haha.... Ya, I'm aware of this. Unfortunately this project is happening in the midst of my wife's first pregnancy. So i'm gonna need to be especially tight with my cash. I know I have to spend a bit to do this right, but I'm gonna need to save where ever I can. And when I do have to open my wallet, I'm probably gonna whine and cry about it. 

Onto another technical question, what does the 5th, electric injector do? what's it's purpose? Cold start thing? Do people ever elliminate them?


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

mr sarcastic said:


> Onto another technical question, what does the 5th, electric injector do? what's it's purpose? Cold start thing? Do people ever elliminate them?


Yep, cold starts. I guess you could eliminate it if it were a race car or you lived in a very warm climate (even then it would help some). The benefits really do outweight the removal of what some would call clutter. As long as it is functioning correct, and it is easy to fix and maintain, I would not delete it.


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm just trying to figure out how/where I'm gonna add it into the intake. I'm gonna hack up an oem 16v intake to make it work with the longitudinal setup I'm running. and with doing that I'll be loosing the original 5th injector spot. Adding it back in will take something clever, just got to come up with something.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

mr sarcastic said:


> I'm just trying to figure out how/where I'm gonna add it into the intake. I'm gonna hack up an oem 16v intake to make it work with the longitudinal setup I'm running.


This you'll have to explain in a little detail?


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm gonna use a stock 16v intake, cut it up and make it into a short runner intake. I need to do this cause the stock intake will be too tall as it comes over the top of the engine, quantums don't have much room under the hood, especially with the taller aba block. Also, it will put the throttle body in the right possition. With this bring a longitudinal setup, a regular 16v intake will point the TB foward whil the intake boot is pointing toward the firewall. 
I'm going to do this by cutting the lower intake runners off an inch or so after the injectors. I'll cut runners almost completely off the upper intake, rotate it 180 degrees and weld the 2 together. The only downfall to this is that I'm gonna cut off the stock location of the 5th injector on the lower intake.....


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## anlxn (Oct 18, 2009)

you could adapt a 1.8t passat intake (just cut the flange off and weld a 16v flange on)then file a flat spot on the end for a cold start injector..............pics or it didnt happen


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## anlxn (Oct 18, 2009)

you could adapt a 1.8t passat intake (just cut the flange off and weld a 16v flange on)then file a flat spot on the end for a cold start injector..............pics or it didnt happen

and waterwheels is right about the WUR:thumbup:


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

I have a passat 1.8t intake here, I was gonna do that hybrid setup but it puts the TB pointing toward the drivers side headlight. I need it to point toward the firewall so it lines up with the original intake boot. Also, when making a spot for the 5th injector, I suspect i'm over thinking it. Just slapping it on one side of the intake seems to me would be a bad idea. The closest runner getting the most fuel and the furthest getting the least. Putting it in the middle giving the middle runners all the fuel while the outers get none. So on and so forth.....
I'll be sure to take pics when its time to make the intake. I'm gonna wait till the engine is in the bay so I can be sure to make proper clearances. That's gonna be a couple months out though, I'm slow. Today the old 1.7lt is coming out, I need to fit alot of the "stuff" from it to the aba. I tried to track down the 9a rod/wrist pin bushings this morning, but the dealership was closed cause today it's new years day to them. :screwy:


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

mr sarcastic said:


> Also, when making a spot for the 5th injector, I suspect i'm over thinking it. Just slapping it on one side of the intake seems to me would be a bad idea. The closest runner getting the most fuel and the furthest getting the least. Putting it in the middle giving the middle runners all the fuel while the outers get none. So on and so forth.....


Yes, you are over thinking the location for the cold start injector. Take a look at any 8v with one, it is over on one side. Same really goes for a 16v as the small air duct it fires into also is to one side. Remember, it is only to help get the engine to fire, it does not run off it. The injector sprays enough to get extra fuel to all the ports, the ones where it sits do get more, but it is just an aid not an engine management system. As soon as the engine catches the normal injection system is running the engine as you have released the key.


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

Ah, I thought it operated during cold starts, till the engine reached operating temps. Kinda like a choke, but guess it's more like a primer.


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## calituner (Aug 11, 2005)

Ya. Im fairly certant the cold start injector is to richen the mixture to help aid in cold start and idling when cold. Usually its ecu controlled but on the early cars i think it used a thermo time switch.

On a side note i used my cold start injector connected to a full throttle switch and had it open at full throttle. Seemed to help the full throttle fueling issue, and my drag slip time.


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

ha, i was actually thinking about connecting it to an rpm switch to aid in fueling in the higher rpms. i bought a rpm switch years ago and i've been itching to put it too use.......


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

calituner said:


> Im fairly certant the cold start injector is to richen the mixture to help aid in cold start and idling when cold. . . i used my cold start injector connected to a full throttle switch and had it open at full throttle. Seemed to help the full throttle fueling issue, and my drag slip time.





mr sarcastic said:


> . . . i was actually thinking about connecting it to an rpm switch to aid in fueling in the higher rpms.


Do Not, I repeat, Do Not connect the cold start valve to any kind of switch, full throttle or whatever, in an attempt to make some kind of enrichment device. This was tried many many years ago and proven to be a dangerous idea at best. First the cold start valve does not work exactly like an injector and was never designed to be operated for any lenght of time. Its spray pattern is not very good at all and no kind of even distribution between cylinders is achieved which is a big problem. There are other wasy to enrich the mixture which are far safer for your engine and proven to work "IF" you discover that you really do need extra enrichment (just wanting it is a bad reason to do it). Imagine for a moment your engine increasing in speed quickly up to say 6000RPM or 7000RPM and all of a sudden the mixture in some cylinders becomes different than the rest. Not a good thing to do to any motor you like. I'll skip making a call on the above for now.

The cold start valve (5th injector as it's called) does not operate during cold running, cold idling, warm-up or any other phase except cold starting (cranking). The thermotime switch controls if and for how long it fires based on temperature. The actual power comes from the starter curcuit, either 15a or 50, so it only operates while the key is turned to start (power is cut when the key is released to "run"). This is a CIS forum and all CIS engines work this way. Cars with EFI injection alter the pulse times of the injectors via the computer based on temperature.


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

point taken. :beer:
old engine is out, no turning back now. crappy cell phone pic.....


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## waterwagon (Apr 7, 2002)

I don't have any input, but I like where this is going. opcorn:


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

I'll have an update for you tomorrow regarding the intermediate shaft and ignition distributor setup. I think I'll be able to make the 1.7lt stuff work, with the aba shaft. I'm crossing my fingers. Almost everything else from the 1.7lt bolts up to the aba block and v8 head. I figured nothing would line up on the head (coolant flanges and such), but everything does. Pretty amazing to me.....


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

I was gonna pull the gear off the end of the aba intermediate shaft, and press on the one from the 1.7. That way I'd keep all the gearing correct, but this csnt happen because the end of the shafts are a different diameter.... So, I began to take a closer look at where the 1.7 shaft hits the crank. It hits on that lobe that must have been for something that was scraped, cause it does nothing. I assume this is a balanced unit, so grinding off the spot that hits is gonna be sketchy. But, it looks like minimal wieght has to be taken off so I'm gonna grind it just enough to clear the crank as it passes by. I was thinking that I might be able to time it so the lobe and the crank would be out of time, but they're not one to one, eventually they meet up. 

As for the distributor, it mates up with the aba oil pump fine. Lines up with the intermediate shaft gear fine, the only problem is the housing is too small. It fits into the bore in the block instead of on top. I'm having a fitted ring made to fit over the housing. It'll be a few days, I'll take pics when it's done and set up. Ordered the 9a rod bushings today so I can run the 9a pistons on the aba rods. $100 for the set, wtf.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

mr sarcastic said:


> It hits on that lobe that must have been for something that was scraped, cause it does nothing. I assume this is a balanced unit . . . Lines up with the intermediate shaft gear fine, the only problem is the housing is too small. It fits into the bore in the block instead of on top. I'm having a fitted ring made to fit over the housing.


That lobe is for the mechanical fuel pumps used in some models. In later years, when fuel injection cam into being, kind of, that lobe was deleted slowly. It would be much easier to just get you a shaft from an engine that did not have the lobe, or buy a balanced one which had it removed. The problem I had always heard was the rod comming much too close to to gear on the shaft itself. The fix was to grind off 5mm from the inside of the gear to allow the rod to swing past without any problems. Sometimes it did not hit during fitting but later as the car moverd around so did the crank a little at then did touch. Be real sure of the gear to rod clearance before closing up the engine.

There are rings sold already for installing the older ignition distributors in the newer 2.0L blocks. If you already have a contract to have one made, too late. There is a complete kit sold also with the ring and a larger gear to put on the old distributor shaft so it mates with the original 2.0L shaft, again maybe too late.


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

Woa, you wouldn't happen to have a link to that kit would you?


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

Found it, i'll link it here for future reference. 
tt conversion kit

Looks like the gear is the oem one off a aba distributor. I'm gonna reach out to my friends and see if any of them have an extra distributor hanging around that I can take it from. I'll also need the intermediate gear if i'm gonna change the gearing at the distributor. the ring/bushing I'm having made is a free-be from my father in law. We'll see how it comes out, but i know it won't have the o ring. probably gonna grab this one anyway.....


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

looks like i'm gonna need this too.....
along with an aeb oil filter housing. ****s starting to add up!


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

mr sarcastic said:


> looks like i'm gonna need this too.....
> along with an aeb oil filter housing. ****s starting to add up!


Na, you said you have a KR head. I can't remember if the PL heads have this mounting point drilled and threaded, but on a KR there is a mounting point for the WUR on the transmission side of the head. That is where the WUR is mounted from the factory, right next to the sensors and coolant flange. For the crankcase venting I have used an Audi part which is a rubber reduction boot that fits on the large nipple of the factory seperator and then ran a smaller tube. Sometimes to a seperator and to vent, sometimes to a catch can either vented or back to the engine. I could maybe find the part number if you want to try and find one.

Why an AEB filter housing?


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

well, not sure if its a KR head or not, its off an audi v8q. it does have the spot your talking about though on the transmission side, but i'm gonna use that spot for the coolant flange from the 1.7. it'll keep all my coolant hoses exactly where they were, just easier that way. 

DSCN0128 by phillipcdube, on Flickr

DSCN0129 by phillipcdube, on Flickr
as for the oil filter housing, the aba has an extra oil port and the shape is slightly different at the top. i cant use the oem aba housing cause it points the oil filter straight down, and on longitudinal cars the engine mount is right there. it needs to be pointed down and towards the fire wall a bit. the aeb unit is the only one with the extra port, and shape that i need. found one in the classifieds for $35 shipped. 

DSCN0126 by phillipcdube, on Flickr

since i had the camera out, i took a couple other pics. i'm gonna wait till there's a couple days of above freezing temps, push this thing out into the driveway and clean/hose the bay. 

DSCN0130 by phillipcdube, on Flickr
the mess on my bench....

DSCN0132 by phillipcdube, on Flickr
and test fitting the accessories and other crap. gonna pull them off and paint the mounts and other stuff. i'm gonna try and make this a clean swap, but not go too crazy. 

DSCN0131 by phillipcdube, on Flickr
DSCN0125 by phillipcdube, on Flickr


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

thinking about getting this. bad idea?


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

mr sarcastic said:


> thinking about getting this. bad idea?


Can't really say. I do know it has a manifold pressure enrichment but just how much, I'm sure not too much, I don't know. The second port is something I can't comment about as I don't know the cars, Volvo, it came from. Could be altitude compensation or could be a lean down function, but it could be blocked off or left free if need be. I would not rush things as the engine will run fine with any 8v unit until you get one you are sure is correct. You will just not have the same top end or have to keep your foot off a little.

Understand about the filter mount. Audies also have them canted and I just forgot the engine position you are working with.

About the cylinder head. Is there a reason you want to use half an 8 cylinder head? I have heard/read that they can work, but from looking at it I think you have a lot of "jerry rigging" before you. Things would be so much more straight forward with a PL or 9A or KR head and they can't be all that much used.

After thought: That head does not have the pad for mounting the WUR.


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

About that wur...... I just came across an Audi 10vt unit for $50, so I bought it. Figure if I don't need it, or can't use it I'll be able to sell it and make my money back. 

As for the head, I already have it and I've been thinking about doing the swap for a while. It's a little more work, but putting any 16v head in a longitudinal setup in gonna take some jury rigging. I've got a pretty rare/unique car, I think it's fitting to have a unique swap. I guess it's a little "form over function" and "cause I can".


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

did a bunch of cleaning in the last few days. kinda tedious, but necessary. fedex dropped off the wur. it was advertised as a wur for an audi 5000 10v turbo, but it doesnt have any vacuum port. its got a vent on the top, but no vacuum port. i searched the part number (034 133403a) and found its for a non turbo 5000 10v......


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

so progress has been slow for the last couple months. we finally got some snow out here so i've taken up a new hobby, snowboarding. also, i had to wait a little on other people doing some of the work, as i dont have the facilities to weld aluminum or resurface a head. but now its all back, and ready for assembly. probably gonna assemble the head tomorrow. got some pics cause everyone loves pictures. 
did a slight port job on the intake runners, nothing major, just a gasket match.
old

DSCN0156 by phillipcdube, on Flickr
new, didnt want to go too crazy and get into the water jacket.

DSCN0157 by phillipcdube, on Flickr
had the head resurfaced.

DSCN0158 by phillipcdube, on Flickr
filled the circular holes with a piece of 1/2" aluminum rod. threaded to 3/8's pipe thread. i didnt want to weld much on the head, and i didnt want to use a brass or even steel plug because of expansion rate difference's. so i needed to make my own plugs. sealed the threads with permatex. 

DSCN0159 by phillipcdube, on Flickr
one spot needed to be welded cause it was oval shaped.

DSCN0160 by phillipcdube, on Flickr
fit the 9a pistons to the aba rods. new rings and crank bearings too. 

DSCN0161 by phillipcdube, on Flickr
now, this is my "new" audi 10v WUR. as you can see its larger.

DSCN0163 by phillipcdube, on Flickr
its got a cover on this nipple, how do i know if this is for vacuum or vent?

DSCN0164 by phillipcdube, on Flickr
part number 0 438 14u 157

DSCN0165 by phillipcdube, on Flickr


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## PKstrategy (Oct 21, 2004)

nice :thumbup:

not knowing about this from personal experience, but I'm assuming vacuum should be kept once the motor warms up.


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## anlxn (Oct 18, 2009)

[. phillipcdube, on Flickr[/QUOTE]
there should be a line nipple on the side of the base that is where the Vac/Boost gots hooked up to


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

Little update..... Engine is in! Still have $100 worth of odds and ends to buy, but I'm on the home stretch. I decided to go with the head mounted distributor from a Saab 900. The CIS block mounted unit is extra tall and just wasn't happening. Also. I'm gonna have to "modify" my hood to let close....... Having the engine in is a huge motivator, it's just tough to find the time to work on it with a newborn around.


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

great to see a PT head on a vw block into a vw carat....

i have the same head awaiting transplamt onto a 9a block for a 91 passat on cis basic turbo. i have been collecting parts for 4 years now...
this has motivated me again to start piecing the engine together this summer.
thanks for the push in the right direction....
keep it up...

:wave:


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

Should be running in the next couple weeks. Just waiting on some last minute parts and tweaks!


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## 91B3DUB (Jul 1, 2010)

yeah this is pretty sweet! im curious tosee it run when finished! :beer:


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

i'm pretty excited and terrified to turn the key. i'm 99% there, waiting on some fuel lines from a friend cause the quantum ones werent long enough to reach over the valve cover. i'm also gonna wait till i have a wideband before i run it. got to modify the header slightly, build a down pipe, and it'll be ready. having a 2 month old at home has definitely slowed me down, but it needs to be on the road for july!


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

It runs! Super lean, and won't hold an idle. At 2k it hovers around 16-17, max's the wideband out as you rev it. I have to modify the saab distributor to let it retard timing more, it bottomed out before it got to where it wanted. Once I get the timing down I'll mess with fueling.


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)




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## anlxn (Oct 18, 2009)

thats great I would like to hear how drivability and performance is in that combo:thumbup::beer:


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

Just as a recap for those who don't want to sort through the thread:
It's an aba bottom end, 9a pistons. The head is a 16v head off of an Audi 3.6 v8, head gasket is aba with the spacer removed, gasket matched the intake ports. 264 kent cams with the Audi v8 header, no cat, 2.25" exhaust back to the borla muffled. 16v throttle body, Saab head mounted vacuum advancing distributor, Mercedes 190e injectors, audi 10v wur (non turbo), stock CIS-L. I'm using the Wideband purely for monitoring the a/f ratio, other then using the analog output to the the regular o2 sensor. 
I think my issue in tuning is gonna be the wur. If I can't dial this one in, or the stock 1.7 wur, I'm gonna take a stab at making one adjustable. If that doesn't pan out, I'll spend the money on a kr or 10vt unit. Anyone got any info on my fuel pump relay? I hear the rev limiter is built into it, so I won't be able to rev past 6300 using the stock relay?


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## waterwagon (Apr 7, 2002)

Nice work! 

TT use to sell a fuel pump relay with the rev limiter removed. I bought one back in '98 for my Fox. I also remember something about an 8v GTI/GLI with CIS having a higher limit.


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

Thanks dude, I appreciate all the insight you've given me so far!


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## waterwagon (Apr 7, 2002)

I like this build for the using the stuff you already have to build something diffrent than the average VW swap. I'm all for it and if the small amount of information I have retained over the years; I'm happy to share when it comes to things like this. :thumbup: 

I think you have me confused with WATERWHEELS; he is the one with all the insight so far.


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

Haha, your right. Didn't even realize there was difference in screen names....


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

i have also read threads on what relays have the limitter off and what not. if you search on vortex you will find it. 

i have a few volvo wur regulators if you need some later on. i also have a pdf file on wur part #'s and specs for them....:wave:


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

Oh man, i'd love to get ahold of that PDF. Could you email it to me? I'll PM you my email....


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

Started to tune it tonight. Got the spark timing correct, and got my a/f ratio down to 11 at idle, but it still soars above 19-20 when revving. Took it for a spin down the road, felt nice in the lower rpm's.


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

Picked up a wur with a vac line input, Bosch number 0438140086, vag number 035133403D. The yard I found it at said it was from a scirocco, but under the part someone sharpied it "84 gt". either way, it'll take vacuum so I'm gonna give it a shot.


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

So my wur is working in reverse of what I want. I used a vac pump, and at idle it would drop the a/r a full 2, almost 3 parts when 20" of vacuum was applied. Arnt these supposed to work the opposite? Lean with vacuum, richen up as the vacuum disappears?


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## anlxn (Oct 18, 2009)

mr sarcastic said:


> So my wur is working in reverse of what I want. I used a vac pump, and at idle it would drop the a/r a full 2, almost 3 parts when 20" of vacuum was applied. Arnt these supposed to work the opposite? Lean with vacuum, richen up as the vacuum disappears?


put the vacume on the outer nipple .....these WUR (control pressure regulator) were ment for atmospheric adjustment/boost ...but what the heck give it a wirl just put it on the big nipple


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

mr sarcastic said:


> I used a vac pump, and at idle it would drop the a/r a full 2, almost 3 parts when 20" of vacuum was applied. Arnt these supposed to work the opposite? Lean with vacuum, richen up as the vacuum disappears?


I don't understand "2, almost 3 parts", parts of what? I do gather that when vacuum is applied the it is causing things to get richer and when vacuum lowers it leans out. If that is what you are saying then it is working correctly. No intention to embarrass you in any way but an engine makes high vacuum (low manifold pressure) at idle and low vacuum (high manifold pressure) at WOT. So that is what you want, tuned correctly at idle and as the vacuum drops during throttle opening the mixture richens. Install a vacuum gauge and play with the throttle and you will see what I mean.

I also don't really understand what the prior response means either with ". . . were ment for atmospheric adjustment/boost ..."? The regulator was a Porsche 928 unit according to the Bosch number (maybe other cars too) and being from a high end model I'm sure it has altitude compensation. I would assume that is the reason for the thick port on the side by the vacuum hose nipple. If that is what was ment by atmospheric adjustment then yes it is very likely. I would also put a vent cap like the one on the top on that poet to keep crud out.


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm using a Wideband to tune, so it gives me a real time air fuel ratio, it tells me how many parts air to one part fuel. When I apply vacuum, the mix richens 2-3 parts. It goes from 13 parts air without vacuum to as low as 10 parts air when vacuum is applied. I understand about how vacuum works, so I guess I don't understand how this unit will help me. I need fuel at higher rpms and under load, this wur gives me my most fuel at idle. 

Maybe it's in my tuning technique. Should I NOT have the vacuum hooked up when I'm setting my mixture? Currently I'm unplugging my o2 and setting the mix.


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

WaterWheels said:


> tuned correctly at idle and as the vacuum drops during throttle opening the mixture richens.


i just need an explanation of how this works with a wur that does the opposite. i'm thinking that the wur will "richen" up the idle, so you set it with an "artificial" mix, a mix that's tricked by the wur. then when you come out of vacuum, the o2/frequency valve does the work to add extra fuel? by having more fuel at idle from the wur, your leaving enough adjustment in the frequency valve to fuel it up top? i'm killing myself here to wrap my head around this.....


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## anlxn (Oct 18, 2009)

on my cis turbo car the vaucm/boost signal hose was hooked to the big port on the side now think about this vacum at idle good a/f off idle (zero vacum) richens up (reduces control pressure) only as far as the thing is set for. now if tou include boost it actually pushed the diaphram and reduces control pressure even more to richen under boost ........less control pressure=more system pressure....just add vacume to the large port and it will lean at idle and richen up to its limit at wot


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

I'll pull vacuum on the bigger one and see what it does to my a/f ratio. If it's meant for altitude compensation, but it works for what i want, I'll do it.


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

I pulled 20 inches of vacuum on the bigger port, didn't change the a/f ratio at all. I'm itching to pull this thing apart to see if there is a way to reverse how it changes pressure. It's not worth anything to me the way it's working right now, got nothing to loose. Gonna do some more research on how they work before.

my issue is that I'm leaning out under load. In the driveway, I can set the mixture and rev the engine fine. It I'll hold it at 4k and my a/r will stay around 12-13:1. But once I get it on the road I can't get into the throttle without it jumping up to 16-17:1.


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## anlxn (Oct 18, 2009)

what is your system pressure at?


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

That's my project for today. I need to throw together a gauge setup.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

mr sarcastic said:


> I pulled 20 inches of vacuum on the bigger port, didn't change the a/f ratio at all.


I know that some of these things have two ports for vacuum signals. It is some kind of "deceleration" function which I never bothered to look into just how it operates (I think boost systems use them and I know Audi has is on old turbo CIS setups). So what you did was going to be a suggestion from me on applying vacuum to the larger port. I think you had no response because you did not heat the bi-metal strip inside. It will stay on cold control pressure until the strip releases pressure on the spring inside. Try it again after applying 12v to the regulator for a few minutes to warm it up.



mr sarcastic said:


> . . . my issue is that I'm leaning out under load. In the driveway, I can set the mixture and rev the engine fine. It I'll hold it at 4k and my a/r will stay around 12-13:1. But once I get it on the road I can't get into the throttle without it jumping up to 16-17:1.


This is strange and I have no answer or suggestion as of yet for this kind of action. I have noticed in looking back a little you have a Lambda system. You do understand that no matter what you do for enrichment the Lambda control will always try to return the mixture to 14.7:1 up until it's maxed out. Have you altered the Lambda system or removed it or anything?


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

i have not removed the lambda system. my wideband o2 sensor has an analog output which i use as the factory lambda sensor. its pretty common for people to do this when they use a wideband on their cis setup. i figure keeping the lambda setup would help me richen up when i'm running lean. i'm thinking it works correctly, because it will correct my a/f ratio while i tune it in the driveway. as it idles its staying between 12.5-13:1, when i rev on it it spikes to 16-17:1 but immediately comes back down to 13:1 and stays there. i assume its the lambda system correcting the mixture, but its maxing out once i need lots of fuel under load. 

i'm going to pull my wur and take a good look at it. i think the larger port, which is meant for atmospheric will work, but i have a sneaky feeling its clogged or has a plug in it. i found a cut away of a wur like mine on google and it shows the diaphragm in the middle of the 2 ports. pulling vacuum from the bottom port would pull the diaphragm down, enriching the mix. pulling vacuum from the top will pull it up, leaning it out. i want that, tune it at idle with the wur making the mix lean, once i come out of vacuum it'll richen. 
i also found that my wur has a set screw on the bottom side of the unit, used to adjust its operation. i was pscyhed to see that, but i'm not gonna touch it yet.


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

I didn't get around to putting together a pressure gauge, my father in-law is on the hunt for the right fittings. But I did take apart the wur and cleaned it out. It was a little cruddy, nothing crazy. There was a huge spring on the backside of the vacuum disphram. It looks like its meant to max it out at lean, and when vacuum was applied to the bottom nipple it enrichens. I removed that spring, there's a smaller spring on the top side that keeps it rich, but now when I apply vacuum to the top port it leans it out. 

So, at idle I set the mix to 11:1, kinda rich but I expect to have that if I want to be good in the higher rpm's. It's still lean at 1/2 or 3/4 throttle under load, around 15:1. But, as soon as I open the throttle completely it drops down to 12-13:1, and it pulls hard. I haven't revved it past 5k, but the a/f stayed steady all the way there. It feels real strong all the way from 1500-5000k with the gas mashed. My next thought is to get after that set scrrew at the bottom of the wur. I'm gonna back it off a touch so it starts to enrichen a little earlier. Hopefully that'll fix my mid throttle leaning issue.... I dont see myself highway driving the way its tuned right now.


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## anlxn (Oct 18, 2009)

glad to hear ya got something to work for your needs


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## mr sarcastic (Nov 2, 2006)

So I got the car registered and inspected, fixed a few leaks, tuned it a bit more... Got it close to where I want it, still a little lean past 5500. So out of curiosity I hooked up a rpm switch I had kicking around to the fifth injector. Set it at 4000k, and reved it in the garage to test it. It's way too much fuel, pretty much chokes it out. It sputters and bog's down.... It might be different once under load, but probably not gonna be worth it. I put a toggle switch on it so I can tum it off and on to see the difference.


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