# VrT Clutch--- SP vs Eip vs Clutchnet vs Matrix vs Spec vs...



## BahnStormer202 (Nov 20, 2001)

Who makes 'better' clutch? One that could hold mid 300hp. My three top choices (so far) are.. 6puck w 40%pp, Spec's stage 3, and Eip. Could someone say something from an experience what (or not) to get? Maybe other options?


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: VrT Clutch--- SP vs Eip vs Clutchnet vs Matrix vs Spec vs... (BahnStormer202)*

Dont go with a clutchnet sprung 6 puck. Garbage. Im building a VR6t now and my choice came down to EIP. the reason is that they have been using their clutches on some powerful cars including their 700+whp mk3 vR6t. I tend to go with well tested products that have been ran on a similar motor setup as mine rather looking at some honda or audi clutch test specs.
-dreadz


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## 50CENT (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: VrT Clutch--- SP vs Eip vs Clutchnet vs Matrix vs Spec vs... (I Wuz BottlFedG60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *I Wuz BottlFedG60* »_Dont go with a clutchnet sprung 6 puck. Garbage. Im building a VR6t now and my choice came down to EIP. the reason is that they have been using their clutches on some powerful cars including their 700+whp mk3 vR6t. I tend to go with well tested products that have been ran on a similar motor setup as mine rather looking at some honda or audi clutch test specs.
-dreadz

Thats funny considering how EIP uses clutchnet clutches. Oh please inform me what mk3 vr6t is makin 700t whp. I ran and still run a clutchnet 4 puck with dual diaphram PP for the whole season. Its the same exact clutch setup thats in the so-called 700twhp vr the EIP supposedly has.
Now to answer the question A 6-puck from clutchnet, SP, EIP or whoever will work fine with a STOCK PP. Its good for up to 400whp proven by us time and time again. Just buy a disk and use your PP if in good shape that will save you a bunch O money
Brian


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: VrT Clutch--- SP vs Eip vs Clutchnet vs Matrix vs Spec vs... (50CENT)*

Clutchnet and EIP clutch looks much different and i said the "Sprung" 6 puck. Ill be using a "Unsprung" 6 puck EIP. ( If you still think they are the same, look at D Wiz clutch thread and you will see i posted them side by side and they are different.


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## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: VrT Clutch--- SP vs Eip vs Clutchnet vs Matrix vs Spec vs... (50CENT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *50CENT* »_Thats funny considering how EIP uses clutchnet clutches. Oh please inform me what mk3 vr6t is makin 700t whp. I ran and still run a clutchnet 4 puck with dual diaphram PP for the whole season. Its the same exact clutch setup thats in the so-called 700twhp vr the EIP supposedly has.

Just curios Brian but what are you basing your comments on regarding who makes our clutch parts?
For the record, the highest hp numbers that we have released publicly are 680+whp which was done repeatedly almost 4 years ago. If we make more than that now it has not been discussed publicly. 
-Rich


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## benzivr6 (Feb 16, 2001)

*Re: VrT Clutch--- SP vs Eip vs Clutchnet vs Matrix vs Spec vs... (I Wuz BottlFedG60)*

May I ask why do you feel the Clutchnet 6 puck "sprung" is garbage? I am using that im my VR6T and if there is any nagative comments about it I would like to know as a consumer of there products that has had a decent amount of good reveiws. For example the physicla features,materials fit and finish ect.


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## 50CENT (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: VrT Clutch--- SP vs Eip vs Clutchnet vs Matrix vs Spec vs... (eiprich)*

Remember a while ago you guys gave Lou a dual diapram PP. Well he never used it and I bought it from him. It was red and had a clutchnet sticker on it. I asked and he said that you guys never painted it cause it was posed to go in his car. I still run that PP to this day and I know Lou runs the same cause Clutchnet makes the only dual diaphram PP that you need to upgrade your clutchfork. Thats how I know. Disk wise I dont know but a disc is a disc. I use a clutchnet unsprung 4-puck disc and have made alot of passes on it. Actually Ive proven that clutch to be stronger then anything else out there cause who has done what Bill and I have done? NO ONE. Sh!t might have changed down there now I do not know. Im just saying what I have experienced
Brian


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## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: VrT Clutch--- SP vs Eip vs Clutchnet vs Matrix vs Spec vs... (50CENT)*

i got the stage 3 EIP comp, dopeness, daily driver too, feels liek stock pedal, grabs like a mofo tho


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## REMUS 13 (Nov 23, 2003)

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## plohip (Sep 12, 2001)

*Re: (REMUS 13)*

Just about any brand is fine. Every brand has had disks go bad (usually from installer error or improperly serfaced flywheel). People just like to get on bandwagons and clutchnet disks sucking is one of them. There are many others but I won't rant here.







I vote for the SPEC stage 3!


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: (plohip)*

The reason why i say its "garbage it that if you put alot of tq to it, the springs collapse and either break or fall out. Im speaking from exsperience, not hear say. Ive went through 3 Clutchnet disc. At the time i got them from Velocity when they were distributing Clutchnet disc in their kits. First Velocity told me to take it up with clutchnet, second clutchnet said they wouldnt replace it. So i brought another one and the same thing happened. The flap the holds the springs broke and the springs collapsed. This was the third one. Now this is MY OPINION. take it how you want. Seems like some people take opinions to heart. Ive done countless clutch jobs over the years so theirs no questioning my installation skills. they said it was the right clutch for my setup at the time( velocity). Now is said nothing about their unsprung disc. In fact i loved the clutch before it broke. The funny thing is after all of that i put a Sach sport disc in and didnt have any problems.
Also, as for EIP clutch being a clutchnet, in previous post we established that they didnt look anything like eachother and if EIP disc is clutchnet, i bet they made them to EIP spec's. 
When you look for a clutch, do you buy it just on name alone? Or would you rather go with a clutch that was well tested on a setup similar to yours. I never seen a matrix or a Spec but ive instaled and drove a car with EIP's clutch and i love the feel of it. Also when i look at the video of their drag MK3 Stage 100 VR6T pulling 700+ on the dyno and strip runs were they are spinning all 4 down the strip, i tend to go with that. Again THIS IS MY OPIniON. Take it how ever.
One more thing. Can we try to stick to the topic instead of bashing companies about things that has nothing to do with the topic. this isnt a "EIP numbers are not valid" thread.
-dreadz


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## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: (plohip)*

For your clutch needs go through this company. VERY good service and prices are hard to beat. 10% off and free shipping. 
http://www.clutchdepot.com 
Spec makes an Awsome clutch. I make less than 3 hundred and I am using the Spec stage2 kit. Has a stock feels handles 385ft/lbs and is nice and smooth.


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## BahnStormer202 (Nov 20, 2001)

*Re: (Scooter98144)*

So you guys suggest Clutchnet's unsprung 6puck along with stock PP?


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## 50CENT (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: (BahnStormer202)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BahnStormer202* »_So you guys suggest Clutchnet's unsprung 6puck along with stock PP?

Thats the setup we been using for years


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## GTRTim (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: (I Wuz BottlFedG60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *I Wuz BottlFedG60* »_The reason why i say its "garbage it that if you put alot of tq to it, the springs collapse and either break or fall out. Im speaking from exsperience, not hear say. Ive went through 3 Clutchnet disc. At the time i got them from Velocity when they were distributing Clutchnet disc in their kits. First Velocity told me to take it up with clutchnet, second clutchnet said they wouldnt replace it. So i brought another one and the same thing happened. The flap the holds the springs broke and the springs collapsed. This was the third one. Now this is MY OPINION. take it how you want. Seems like some people take opinions to heart. Ive done countless clutch jobs over the years so theirs no questioning my installation skills. they said it was the right clutch for my setup at the time( velocity). Now is said nothing about their unsprung disc. In fact i loved the clutch before it broke. The funny thing is after all of that i put a Sach sport disc in and didnt have any problems.
Also, as for EIP clutch being a clutchnet, in previous post we established that they didnt look anything like eachother and if EIP disc is clutchnet, i bet they made them to EIP spec's. 
When you look for a clutch, do you buy it just on name alone? Or would you rather go with a clutch that was well tested on a setup similar to yours. I never seen a matrix or a Spec but ive instaled and drove a car with EIP's clutch and i love the feel of it. Also when i look at the video of their drag MK3 Stage 100 VR6T pulling 700+ on the dyno and strip runs were they are spinning all 4 down the strip, i tend to go with that. Again THIS IS MY OPIniON. Take it how ever.
One more thing. Can we try to stick to the topic instead of bashing companies about things that has nothing to do with the topic. this isnt a "EIP numbers are not valid" thread.
-dreadz

Aight... and Brian is speaking from experience also... You would think by now you would realize everything we speak in this forum is from experience. But lets see I ran clutchnet 6puck sprung/stock pp as my first disc 400wtq and had zero issues... lasted a year except when I tryed to do a 2nd gear burnout on the street no reving high enough, I spun the disc pretty bad... and it still lasted me another 20 or so 1/4 mile passes on slicks... 
Bill with the Red A2 gti, still had the original 6puck sprung disc in his car and it still running strong also with 400wtq... So yes we speak from experience
The only clutch from clutchnet that we've had poor experience with is the 8puck full face clutch...we had 2 versions of it also, 1 was 8puck full face both sides, the other was 8puck 1 side, solid disc other side... and both clutches started slipping quickly...
Well, now onto your other points... I know 3 years ago when my other friend with his A2 VR6, but a EIP Stage 2 clutch/pp combo he most certainly got a clutchnet disc... 
Remeber EIP in the "PAST" has been notorious for claiming other less known companies products as there own "EIP" recipe... things that come to mine
Peloquin = EIP Diff or Qlone
Cat Cement = EIP Headgasket Sealer
SCE Copper Gasket = EIP Copper Headgasket
So you see the trend.. Again things like that might have changed with the Change in Rich's look on Customer Service... but thats how it was...
Next, you say when you look at the video of there drag car making 700+whp?? What video ??? The most HP ever released to the public in a video was 656whp in the white gti... and that was when it was FWD... EIP doesn't have an AWD dyno. Next video spinning all 4 wheels in the 1/4 mile video?? Again.. no such video was ever released to the public... but for the record and Rich will most certainly agree they never had a clean pass when the car was AWD... It most certainly never spun all the way down the 1/4 since every time they launched the car hard it snapped drivetrain parts... but thats part of experimenting with new things... Quickest the car went AWD iirc was 11.7 @ 13X at E-Town after rolling out not to snap drive train .
So finally according to your THEORY about you should go with the product that people run with a "similar" setup of you with good real experience and not just a name then it should be clutch net... Worlds Quickest/Fastest VR6 runs Clutchnet, Our 10.7 GTI runs clutchnet, I run clutchnet, Bill A2 ran clutchnet, Our nitrous A2 runs clutchnet.
Now show me all the 11.99second and quicker VR6's currently running EIP Clutches??? 
So yes that just throws your reasoning out the window, as to the clutch has to perform down the 1/4 mile and not just a name..
Tim


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## 50CENT (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: (I Wuz BottlFedG60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *I Wuz BottlFedG60* »_
When you look for a clutch, do you buy it just on name alone? Or would you rather go with a clutch that was well tested on a setup similar to yours. I never seen a matrix or a Spec but ive instaled and drove a car with EIP's clutch and i love the feel of it. Also when i look at the video of their drag MK3 Stage 100 VR6T pulling 700+ on the dyno and strip runs were they are spinning all 4 down the strip, i tend to go with that. Again THIS IS MY OPIniON. Take it how ever.
One more thing. Can we try to stick to the topic instead of bashing companies about things that has nothing to do with the topic. this isnt a "EIP numbers are not valid" thread.
-dreadz

That car never made it out of the 11's, and never trapped 140mph. And you wish that car spun 4 tires at the strip. Sh!t couldnt even get out of the whole without breaking unless he rolled out. So what are you reffering to being proven. Theres is a million vr's running 11's now im sure they all dont run EIP clutches. I think that your a bandwagon jumper cause ever since Rich started posting here I see that everyone is on the jock. Its just funny to me. Plus you should have no opinion to this thread cause you dont even have a fast VR. Once again people on the TEX being miseducated cause of jockriders. But thats ok with me cause I will have a Title with a car thats not even together anymore.
Brian


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (GTRTim)*

you dont need an awd dyno, just do the front wheels and disconnect the rear.


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## 50CENT (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: (killa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_you dont need an awd dyno, just do the front wheels and disconnect the rear.


Haha the rookie of the year has spoken http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## GTRTim (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: (killa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_you dont need an awd dyno, just do the front wheels and disconnect the rear.


Blah ain't no DSM


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## REMUS 13 (Nov 23, 2003)

*Re: (GTRTim)*

tim, I posted the vid of the 1.8t claiming to run 12.3's in the other thread, check it out


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## QuickBlackGTi (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (50CENT)*

I have a clutchnet 6 puck sprung and love it. I'll most likely be changing to a 6 puck unsprung once I make more power but at my recent dyno the clutch held 427HP and 376TQ and know others that have used the clutchnet discs.


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## REMUS 13 (Nov 23, 2003)

*Re: (QuickBlackGTi)*

holla @ that clutchnet


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## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: (50CENT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *50CENT* »_...I think that your a bandwagon jumper cause ever since Rich started posting here I see that everyone is on the jock. Its just funny to me. Plus you should have no opinion to this thread cause you dont even have a fast VR. Once again people on the TEX being miseducated cause of jockriders...

I think it is in very poor taste for someone who constantly sings the praises of another shop (Schimmel) to turn around and trash others for making positive comments about a company that they are happy with. 
It is no more "jock riding" than what you are doing almost every time you post.
Personally I think it's fine if you want to praise Bill but for you to then be a hypocrite and bash someone else for doing exactly the same thing is absurd.
This thread is titled: 
"VrT Clutch--- SP vs Eip vs Clutchnet vs Matrix vs Spec vs..." 
and the original author asked: 
"Who makes 'better' clutch? One that could hold mid 300hp. My three top choices (so far) are.. 6puck w 40%pp, Spec's stage 3, and Eip. Could someone say something from an experience what (or not) to get? Maybe other options?"
It is not the "fast VR6 only" thread and for you to say that "I Wuz BottlFedG60" has no right to post his opinion is ridiculous. If he had no personal experience then I would agree with you, but he does have personal experience so his comments are as valid as yours.
Most everyone respects what you and Bill have accomplished on the track but drag racing isn't for everyone, in fact it isn't for most, and thus your racing experience isn't applicable for everyone and your opinions are just that, opinions. 
-Rich


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## Hardcore VW (Oct 9, 2001)

*Re: (eiprich)*

Yeah but he ran 9's so everyone else should drop dead.
(for those that don't know that was sarcasam)


_Modified by Hardcore VW at 2:16 PM 12-5-2003_


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## Hardcore VW (Oct 9, 2001)

*Re: (Hardcore VW)*

and don't catch too many feelings off that one....


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (Hardcore VW)*

i got a 6 puck sprung, dont know how it performs yet since my ish is still not running haha


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## GTRTim (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: (eiprich)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eiprich* »_
It is not the "fast VR6 only" thread and for you to say that "I Wuz BottlFedG60" has no right to post his opinion is ridiculous. If he had no personal experience then I would agree with you, but he does have personal experience so his comments are as valid as yours.
Most everyone respects what you and Bill have accomplished on the track but drag racing isn't for everyone, in fact it isn't for most, and thus your racing experience isn't applicable for everyone and your opinions are just that, opinions. 
-Rich


Rich you are correct it's not the "fast vr6 only" thread.... Hence the reason why I gave our personal experience in our "Street" Cars.... To give a comparison of "Street" Cars...
But you see where you are wrong Rich is that BottledFedG60 was trying to say that the "EIP" clutch was better then the "Clutchnet" clutch because of the "Claimed Achievments" on the drag strip and dyno.... Thus Brian's comparison to his "Drag" car is totally relevant to the comparison in which BottleFedG60 was trying to make that if a power "race car" like your is using the clutch and it's hold up then obviously it's good for the street application.
Finally you are correct everyone is entitled to there opinion/own first hand experience. But if you are going to state that as your reasoning first..
Like BottleFed original post should have looked like this...
"From my experience with clutchnet clutches a few years ago, they are garbage"
Not "Dont go with a clutchnet sprung 6 puck. Garbage"
No where in his post does he give any explanation to his reasoning behind his opinion but is bashing a product with no real evidence as to why until like 5 posts later when it's questioned, while in the same post he is praising the EIP product. 
Tim

_Modified by GTRTim at 10:34 PM 12-5-2003_


_Modified by GTRTim at 10:40 PM 12-5-2003_


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## GTRTim (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: (Hardcore VW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Hardcore VW* »_Yeah but he ran 9's so everyone else should drop dead.
(for those that don't know that was sarcasam)


Haha damn 4bangers.... your car gonna be ready this year?? or still funding issues?


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## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: (GTRTim)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTRTim* »_...But you see where you are wrong Rich...

It is this type of comment I can never understand...I am never wrong so we can have no further discussion at this time...








-Rich


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## Hardcore VW (Oct 9, 2001)

*Re: (GTRTim)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTRTim* »_
Haha damn 4bangers.... your car gonna be ready this year?? or still funding issues?


Actually I'm almost issuless this year,I'd say this spring for sure,but who knows what lifeuck could lie around the next bend.I'm actually trying this winter though,I'll say that much.


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## GTRTim (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: (eiprich)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eiprich* »_
It is this type of comment I can never understand...I am never wrong so we can have no further discussion at this time...








-Rich

Comeon Play a little it's snowing


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## I am Jack's VR6 (Sep 18, 2001)

*Re: (GTRTim)*

Tim -
What kind of milage do you tend to see with the stock PP/6-puck setup? I've heard it tends to wear out quickly, but that's just what I heard...


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## GTRTim (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: (I am Jack's VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *I am Jack's VR6* »_Tim -
What kind of milage do you tend to see with the stock PP/6-puck setup? I've heard it tends to wear out quickly, but that's just what I heard...

My current one has about 4,000 miles on it... I'll let you know...
I think when Brian had his in the jetta when it was still a street car it was over 10,000 miles


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: (GTRTim)*

Wow, why must everything be a debate over wut one person say's.
First, Tim, im not going to get into it with you because you have more exsperience then me on testing products and the amount of track time you have under your belt. I just build them. being that's said,... first, the reason why i used EIP was that they test their products on their own cars. Weather or the car spun all 4, ran 9's, and grew wings doesnt matter, the fact is they test their products. Personally......me, myself....have only used 3 clutches in my own cars. Sach, Clutchnet, and a EIP (which it was in the car when i brought it). so i can only talk about wut i used. maybe it had something to do with the batch that Velocity had, i dunno but no one wanted to replace it, Velocity nor clutchnet. I used EIP's car as an example just to point out that its being tested. my stat's might have been off but it's not the issue here. Also you point out that i didnt give my reasons why i think it's "garbage". I stated that the springs feel out twice. It didnt go just like that. it went over time. you also say that everyone speaks from exsperience when it's obvious it's not like that( reffering to past threads). "Someone's cousin's, brother's friend had one" comes up to often in threads. you also say that im "Bashing" clutchnet when i clearly say that i loved the clutch before it went. I also said i wasnt speaking about the rest of the product line. ("Im not speaking about their unsprung clutches"). I thought i explained my reason's when i said in my original post was that the lip that holds the springs in broke causing the springs to collapse and fallout and Velocity told me to take it up with clutchnet, clutchnet told me to take it up with velocity. I sent them the disc and they clearly can tell it was a defect....twice but no one wanted to replace it. now im sorry i didnt word it how you like. I thought i share some bad exsperience and my post get's picked apart. the point of my whole post was The 6 puck is garbage and their customer service is garbage. I would bash velocity but they are no longer here. also this was a few years ago so things might have changed, i dunno but im speaking on my exsperience. 
-Dreadz


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## I am Jack's VR6 (Sep 18, 2001)

*Re: (GTRTim)*

How many have you gone through since you put in the turbo?


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: (I am Jack's VR6)*


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## Hardcore VW (Oct 9, 2001)

*Re: (I Wuz BottlFedG60)*

>>Velocity told me to take it up with clutchnet, clutchnet told me to take it up with velocity<<
Man that's some serious BS,I really can't see why they'd do some crap like that over such an inexpensive part.It's a pretty big PITA to replace as far as the cars owner is concerned,ESP if they don't do the work themselves.They screwed someone around over a $__ part,I mean the retail is low enough on just a disc,I imagine when you have the shop that makes them,it'd really be little or no skin of their teeth to replace it and keep the public happy.


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## GTRTim (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: (I am Jack's VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *I am Jack's VR6* »_How many have you gone through since you put in the turbo?

None because they wore out... 1 spun the first disc because of MY stupidity.... it didn't wear out... but this is my 2nd disc.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: (Hardcore VW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Hardcore VW* »_>>Velocity told me to take it up with clutchnet, clutchnet told me to take it up with velocity<<
Man that's some serious BS,I really can't see why they'd do some crap like that over such an inexpensive part......

But they did. If you think its BS then that's you. to this day i still cant figure it out. Velocity got me more then once over "inexspensive parts". that was my fault and im not going to get into it. Clutchnet said even though it wasnt my fault, the disc wasnt under warranty so i could get the next one on a "discount" which i did and the samething happen again about the same amount of time. I didnt bother with trying to get it replaced and went with another brand. Maybe i should have went through Clutchnet instead of Velocity. It was a Velocity clutch kit but the disc was Clutchnet. If i had to do it all over, i wouldnt have went through Velocity.


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## radgti8v (Feb 28, 1999)

*Re: (I Wuz BottlFedG60)*

Forget I asked...










_Modified by radgti8v at 6:10 PM 12-5-2003_


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## Hardcore VW (Oct 9, 2001)

*Re: (I Wuz BottlFedG60)*

I think it's BS that they did it,I don't doubt what your saying is true.Reread my post!
haha I do that too.......read a couple words then get all "WHAT"!"! mothaf'r........."


_Modified by Hardcore VW at 6:15 PM 12-5-2003_


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

*Re: (Hardcore VW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Hardcore VW* »_I think it's BS that they did it,I don't doubt what your saying is true.Reread my post!
haha I do that too.......read a couple words then get all "WHAT"!"! mothaf'r........."

_Modified by Hardcore VW at 6:15 PM 12-5-2003_


Hahahaha, im so sorry Hardcore. I reread it like 6 times and was like....oh


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## I am Jack's VR6 (Sep 18, 2001)

*Re: (GTRTim)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTRTim* »_
None because they wore out... 1 spun the first disc because of MY stupidity.... it didn't wear out... but this is my 2nd disc.

How about the stock pressure plate?
Thanks for the info Tim... Sorry for the 20 questions.


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## GTRTim (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: (I am Jack's VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *I am Jack's VR6* »_
How about the stock pressure plate?
Thanks for the info Tim... Sorry for the 20 questions.

Same pressue plate... no issues..


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## 50CENT (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: (eiprich)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eiprich* »_
I think it is in very poor taste for someone who constantly sings the praises of another shop (Schimmel) to turn around and trash others for making positive comments about a company that they are happy with. 
It is no more "jock riding" than what you are doing almost every time you post.
Personally I think it's fine if you want to praise Bill but for you to then be a hypocrite and bash someone else for doing exactly the same thing is absurd.



1st I drive a VW so yes I have poor taste
2nd I cant sing
3rd I dont go to church
4th Dont ever call me something im not
When do I come on here and say Schimmel this Schimmel that never so let me stop you right there. Next I wasnt bashing any companies its just that before you came on here everybody hated on you and now they jocking to me thats funny its my OPINION. I wish you could have seen Sh!t said bout you guys going as far back as I can remember. Dont get me wrong Im happy you can get sh!t straight but from what I see on here from the other posters who hated on you there the ones that are hypocrites.
Last please inform me when a clutch knows the diff between the track or street. Actually I prefer a twin disk for the street if you ask. But I did answer the question as to what will work on the street. You act like I didnt or dont still have fast street cars. Remember Rich in my world there is no diff between the street or the track.
Brian



_Modified by 50CENT at 9:11 AM 12-6-2003_


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## Hardcore VW (Oct 9, 2001)

*Re: (I Wuz BottlFedG60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *I Wuz BottlFedG60* »_

Hahahaha, im so sorry Hardcore. I reread it like 6 times and was like....oh









aint no thang


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## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: (50CENT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *50CENT* »_When do I come on here and say Schimmel this Schimmel that never so let me stop you right there....Next I wasnt bashing any companies its just that before you came on here everybody hated on you and now they jocking to me thats funny its my OPINION. I wish you could have seen Sh!t said bout you guys going as far back as I can remember. Dont get me wrong Im happy you can get sh!t straight but from what I see on here from the other posters who hated on you there the ones that are hypocrites.

First of all Brian I cannot believe that you would even try to say that you do not constantly talk about how Schimmel is "the best" or how "no one knows more about VR6 than Bill", etc. 
In fact not that long ago, in a thread located in the drag racing area, you got into a huge beef with TurboLou because he disagreed with you AFTER you posted that "Bill is the Best {VR6 builder}". You also just posted within the past two days saying "who has done what Bill and I have done...no one". These are clear examples of praising Bill...which I think is perfectly fine and fully expected considering he is a major factor in your success on the track. 
My point was, and the reason I said you are being a hypocrite is because you come on here and do this, now you deny even doing it and then criticize others for doing the same thing. It just doesn't make sense. 
I do understand your point about the negative stuff that was all over Vortex in the recent past about EIP and how many of the haters are not hating any more. I think this is easily explained though, our total absence from this format allowed the negativity to expand continuously, now that I am active here I can work, as I have been to repair any problems as well as interact with many members and customers and address any issues in a positive and productive way. I think it is very positive and beneficial to both us and the users of this forum. 
I think that you and I agree on many things, we will never agree on others, which is fine, it’s healthy and debate is not a bad thing. By the same token you must realize that I have a very strong interest in working with the folks here on Vortex, and it is not right if members feel that they are being criticized for offering positive comments about EIP, as has happened in the past and what I believe has happened here. This is the sole reason that I have addressed this with you. 
I believe that you are a reasonable person and I hope you understand where I am coming from.
-Rich


----------



## BahnStormer202 (Nov 20, 2001)

*Re: (eiprich)*

Ok to clear something up. Im looking for a clutch that could handle 350hp and still be somewhat driveable. The car WILL be daily driver, so 4,000- 10,000 on clutch dont look to promising for me. I also called Clutchnet; they said that they dont recommend 'unsprung' one for street, even though alot of poeple are doing that. What I dont want is a clutch that feels like a million bricks and you have rev the motor up to 4k in order to get it moving in decent manner.. (example from kid's Gsr T)
PS
I didnt intend this to be another fight between Eip/Rich and SP/Brian... Please keep it that way.


----------



## GTRTim (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: (BahnStormer202)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BahnStormer202* »_Ok to clear something up. Im looking for a clutch that could handle 350hp and still be somewhat driveable. The car WILL be daily driver, so 4,000- 10,000 on clutch dont look to promising for me. I also called Clutchnet; they said that they dont recommend 'unsprung' one for street, even though alot of poeple are doing that. What I dont want is a clutch that feels like a million bricks and you have rev the motor up to 4k in order to get it moving in decent manner.. (example from kid's Gsr T)
PS
I didnt intend this to be another fight between Eip/Rich and SP/Brian... Please keep it that way. 

Well Simon... And Upgraded Pressure plate is what is going to give you that super stiff pedal... Stock Pressure Plate = Stock Pedal.. or very close to stock pedal feel.
Example... Bill's A2 he had the Sachs Sport 40%over PP and 6puck Sprung and his Clutch Pedal is alot stiffer then mine with Stock PP and 6puck Unsprung .
I still drive my car the same as stock clutch... alot of times i'll start rolling without using the gas at all... but usually rev to the same as stock about 1,300-1,400rpms.
As for the final thing... your not going to find a clutch that lasts much more then 15,000 miles... remeber aftermarket performance clutches aren't supposed to last 50,000miles when your making 350whp But I suppose if you drove like grama you could prolly get a 6puck to last 50,000 miles


----------



## 50CENT (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: (eiprich)*

I understand now were your coming from. I do not want to step on your toes. I will do my best to be more reasonable in the future.
Brian


----------



## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: (50CENT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *50CENT* »_I understand now were your coming from. I do not want to step on your toes. I will do my best to be more reasonable in the future.
Brian

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








-Rich


----------



## BahnStormer202 (Nov 20, 2001)

*Re: (GTRTim)*

Thanks for clearing that up for me Tim. Maybe I should drive your car to see what you mean...







and even pick up that mag of mine.








Anyway, my final question concerns the 'sprung' deal. How the two diff, Clutchnet sais one thing.. vortex another








As far of the failure mantioned before, thats exactly what happened in my friend's Gsr.. I think he had CM Stg 3 though, so that can be 'universal' problem.
Needles to say, looks like pp will be as close to (if not) stock and 6puck sprung/unsprung clutch.
Which one?


----------



## REMUS 13 (Nov 23, 2003)

*Re: (BahnStormer202)*

sprung http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## JimmPTL (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: (I am Jack's VR6)*

Clutchmaster http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## bdcoombs (Jul 28, 2002)

*Re: (I am Jack's VR6)*

sorry to interupt your argument but what would be the best and last the longest on a 300 whp vw. i am lookin for somethin to last long here since i want it to be a daily driver


----------



## Boomdaddymack (Jun 19, 2002)

*Re: (bdcoombs)*

Same question as everyone else, I suppose....
I need a clutch setup to handle 350-400 wheel. Not a daily driver, but definately not a drag car. I have a very lightened G60 flywheel, and a sachs power clutch setup right now, what do I need to upgrade to?
Thanks guys! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 50CENT (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: (Boomdaddymack)*

Unless you guys want to have a hard pedal then the best thing would be to use a copper pucked clutch. Most people will get 15-20k out of one. I had about 21k on my before I changed and it was still ok. It went into another car which just came out like a month ago. I had that clutch since march 2001. How you drive will depend on the clutch life.
Brian


----------



## I am Jack's VR6 (Sep 18, 2001)

*Re: (50CENT)*

How can we tell if our stock pressure plates are still in good enough shape to use?


----------



## 50CENT (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: (I am Jack's VR6)*

If you dont have too many miles on it then its probably safe to use
Brian


----------



## VW1990CORRADO (Sep 30, 2000)

*Re: (I Wuz BottlFedG60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *I Wuz BottlFedG60* »_The reason why i say its "garbage it that if you put alot of tq to it, the springs collapse and either break or fall out. Im speaking from exsperience, not hear say. Ive went through 3 Clutchnet disc. At the time i got them from Velocity when they were distributing Clutchnet disc in their kits. First Velocity told me to take it up with clutchnet, second clutchnet said they wouldnt replace it. So i brought another one and the same thing happened. The flap the holds the springs broke and the springs collapsed. This was the third one. Now this is MY OPINION. take it how you want. Seems like some people take opinions to heart. Ive done countless clutch jobs over the years so theirs no questioning my installation skills. they said it was the right clutch for my setup at the time( velocity). Now is said nothing about their unsprung disc. In fact i loved the clutch before it broke. The funny thing is after all of that i put a Sach sport disc in and didnt have any problems.


if they suck so much why bother buying 3????
ps i am running a clutchnet carbon kevlar sprung clutch(stock one side pucked other side) with vr6 PP. been on there since 2001. no issues at all. just with the tranny install (adrenalin (KTR) motorsport)


----------



## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: (VW1990CORRADO)*

Well I know it is still new but my Spec Stage2 is working just awsome. Holds all the power has a very smooth stock like feal and it does not mind having it shifted hard and fast. 
http://www.clutchdepot.com. 

Dollar for dollar it is hard to beat.


----------



## I am Jack's VR6 (Sep 18, 2001)

*Re: (50CENT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *50CENT* »_If you dont have too many miles on it then its probably safe to use
Brian

I have about 75k on it. I would just hate to put in a new disk only to find out that my PP can't cut it anymore...


----------



## GTRTim (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: (I am Jack's VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *I am Jack's VR6* »_
I have about 75k on it. I would just hate to put in a new disk only to find out that my PP can't cut it anymore...

Well my stock pp has 58,000 miles on it... and had close to 1000 1/4 mile runs when i was allmotor, so I'm sure that put some extra abuse on it...
Tim


----------



## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: (I am Jack's VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *I am Jack's VR6* »_I have about 75k on it. I would just hate to put in a new disk only to find out that my PP can't cut it anymore...

The super aggressive material like copper & steel will cut into even an older used PP but it will never seat as well as if it were installed with a newer PP that isn't worn and uneven as all used PP's are. 
If you are planning to use a longer lasting, less aggressive material, these discs will not cut into the PP and you will end up with minimal contact area's which in a short time if not immediately will cause the clutch to slip or overheat and warp and become glazed.
If you plan to replace the clutch, you should replace the PP, Disc and T/O at the same time, it simply isn't worth the R&R to half step and replace just the disc, IMHO.
-Rich


----------



## 50CENT (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: (eiprich)*

True that. 75k is kinda pushing it. If the money is there a new PP would be the right thing to do. Mainly for peace of mind also.
Brian


----------



## VRQUICK (Sep 20, 2000)

*Re: (I am Jack's VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *I am Jack's VR6* »_
I have about 75k on it. I would just hate to put in a new disk only to find out that my PP can't cut it anymore...

It's only $100 for a stock pressure plate and a throw out bearing from adirondak.


----------



## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: (50CENT)*

I agree with Rich. I paid 350 for my Stage2 it is a sprung Kevlar disc holds a ton of power and is just as smooth as stock.
To me 350 for a full Clutch kit that handles 380foot lbs of torq is hard to beet. Plus Kevlar is well known for its life span. 
Just my two cents as I feel some of the other clutch Kits that look like they are simply repacket Spec kits are WAY WAY over priced.


----------



## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: (VRQUICK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRQUICK* »_It's only $100 for a stock pressure plate and a throw out bearing from adirondak.

All right...for the rest of the year we are offering our complete street kits to any Vortex member for only $349 and we will offer FREE shipping (lower 48 states). They include Street or Comp Disc, Mod. Pressure Plate (feels like stock), oem T/O bearing (release bearing). 
Street Series - 20-40k average mileage and stock like feel (350+whp) or 
Comp Series - less mileage - designed for track or street - can withstand more abuse, Stages 1&2 retain a streetable feel. 
-Rich


----------



## Benbuilt4u (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: VrT Clutch--- SP vs Eip vs Clutchnet vs Matrix vs Spec vs... (BahnStormer202)*

every clutchnet ive had broke so i say no clutchnet clutches. By the way im taking 7 of them in 3 different cars


----------



## Gavster (Jan 8, 2002)

*Re: VrT Clutch--- SP vs Eip vs Clutchnet vs Matrix vs Spec vs... (Benbuilt4u)*

I am about to throw a turbo setup on my car within a few weeks...I have all the stuff ready, except for tranny stuff. I have recently replaced my stcok clutch with another OEM sachs clutch...Its the stock PP, it has like 3000 miles on it...what would the best solution be for me given my circumstance? I want to be able to handle 300 some odd whp. Whats the best route to go?


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (I Wuz BottlFedG60)*

The SPEC Stage 2 is rated at over 300 ft-lbs and the pedal pressure and engagement feel just like stock. Why put in just an aftermarket disc to increase holding capacity? Then you're relying mainly on an increase in friction only (with perhaps a slight change in the radius to the center of the friction surface). Why not actually increase the actual force applied to the disc? Increasing the force applied to the disc doesn't have to scale the pedal pressure by the same amount, as this can be adjusted with the leverls in the pressure plate.


----------



## 50CENT (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: (Marty)*

You dont want to increase the PP unless you have to for the sake of your thrust bearings and main bearings. If you only use a disc it can hold plenty of hp without sacraficing anything. If you run a upgraded PP you will eventually have to rip your bottom end apart to replace bearings. Me I would just use discs.
Brian


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (eiprich)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eiprich* »_
All right...for the rest of the year we are offering our complete street kits to any Vortex member for only $349 and we will offer FREE shipping (lower 48 states). They include Street or Comp Disc, Mod. Pressure Plate (feels like stock), oem T/O bearing (release bearing). 
Street Series - 20-40k average mileage and stock like feel (350+whp) or 
Comp Series - less mileage - designed for track or street - can withstand more abuse, Stages 1&2 retain a streetable feel. 
-Rich

WRONG RICH!!!!!!!!
yoru stag e3 comp which i run now pedal fells JUST as soft as OEM, grabs liek a mofo, you can even slip it , chatter isnt bad at ALL!!!!
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: (50CENT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *50CENT* »_You dont want to increase the PP unless you have to for the sake of your thrust bearings and main bearings. If you only use a disc it can hold plenty of hp without sacraficing anything. If you run a upgraded PP you will eventually have to rip your bottom end apart to replace bearings. Me I would just use discs.
Brian

Were did you get this silly idea from. The pressure plate is bolted to the flywheel and presses its full clampping power onto the disc then the flywheel at all times unless you you press the clutch in. The only thing I could see having a TINY amount more wear would be the release fork and the bearing it pushes on as you depress the clutch.
Also when a PP is redone to increase clamping force it is done in a way that normaly does not increase peddle feel. Mine is something like 30-40% more clamping force yet feels stock. 
Adding an uprated clutch is not going to wear out the bottom end and unless you have links to sites proving other wise.


----------



## radgti8v (Feb 28, 1999)

*Re: (Scooter98144)*

Sounds like crankwalk on a DSM.


----------



## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: (D Wiz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *D Wiz* »_WRONG RICH!!!!!!!!
yoru stag e3 comp which i run now pedal fells JUST as soft as OEM, grabs liek a mofo, you can even slip it , chatter isnt bad at ALL!!!!
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









This is one of those times that I don't mind being mistaken...








I agree that once you get used to the short engagement area of even our Stage3 Comp Series they are pretty reasonable. The only down side is the life expectancy...as I tell people all the time, I have seen clutch riders (those who leave the car in gear and slowly release the clutch to hold the car still at red lights, hills, etc, etc.) destroy a Comp Series clutch in very short time because of the aggressive nature of the material. 
If you drive well, don't ride the clutch they can go as far as 20k or more, Hell I drove to CA, raced an entire season, drove to tracks all over the East on a single Stage5 Comp (Dual Diaphragm) clutch...I now have a huge left leg but the clutch lasted great!!
-Rich



_Modified by eiprich at 9:29 PM 12-9-2003_


----------



## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (Scooter98144)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scooter98144* »_
Were did you get this silly idea from. The pressure plate is bolted to the flywheel and presses its full clampping power onto the disc then the flywheel at all times unless you you press the clutch in. The only thing I could see having a TINY amount more wear would be the release fork and the bearing it pushes on as you depress the clutch.
Also when a PP is redone to increase clamping force it is done in a way that normaly does not increase peddle feel. Mine is something like 30-40% more clamping force yet feels stock. 
Adding an uprated clutch is not going to wear out the bottom end and unless you have links to sites proving other wise.

Brian's right, the harder PP will cause your mains to go quicker


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## Hardcore VW (Oct 9, 2001)

*Re: (Scooter98144)*

>>Were did you get this silly idea from.<<
Did you have your hand on your hip with one foot pointed 90deg when you said that?

I agree,Brians right it's hard on thrust bearings.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (Hardcore VW)*

The only time that the stiffer pressure plate has any effect on the crank assembly is when you push the clutch pedal in (the fork pulls on the pressure plate, and the pressure plate then in turn pulls on the flywheel and the flywheel tugs on the crank). However this pulls is completely along the axis of the crankshaft, so it will only exert added force to the thrust washers and will have no effect on the main bearing wear surfaces, but yes you obviously WILL be pushing harder on your thrust washers. I can't imagine that this would have a huge effect given the relatively short amount of time that the clutch pedal is pushed in. When the clutch is engaged, your crank has no idea that the pressure plate has the higher clamping force. All of this force is internal to the pressure plate / clutch disc / flywheel assembly.


_Modified by Marty at 12:05 PM 12-9-2003_


----------



## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_The only time that the stiffer pressure plate has any effect on the crank assembly is when you push the clutch pedal in (the fork pulls on the pressure plate, and the pressure plate then in turn pulls on the flywheel and the flywheel tugs on the crank). However this pulls is completely along the axis of the crankshaft, so it will only exert added force to the thrust washers and will have no effect on the main bearing wear surfaces, but yes you obviously WILL be pushing harder on your thrust washers. I can't imagine that this would have a huge effect given the relatively short amount of time that the clutch pedal is pushed in. When the clutch is engaged, your crank has no idea that the pressure plate has the higher clamping force. All of this force is internal to the pressure plate / clutch disc / flywheel assembly.
_Modified by Marty at 12:05 PM 12-9-2003_

Well Marty you are 100% wrong and then again you are also 100% right... 
When you depress the clutch pedal, the lever arm pushes the T/O (release) bearing into the pressure plate and the diaphragm of the PP then levers the contact surface away from the disc (via a fulcrum point). The result is hundreds (or thousands) of pounds of pressure is then applied to the flywheel, then to the crank and ultimately to the thrust bearings whose job it is to stop the crank from moving out of alignment with the cylinder bores. So you are right, there is Zero wear difference with even our duel diaphragm clutch disc until you apply the clutch but the clutch pushes against the crank (it doesn't pull it) and tries to move the nose of the crank toward the passenger side of the vehicle (in the case of a VR6 or 4cyl VW). I realize this is sort of trivial but for the sake of accuracy I felt I should mention it. 
As for main bearing wear, I agree with you that there (and we have never seen any signs of this) should be no premature main bearing wear because as you indicated the pressure being applied is along the centerline axis of the crank and should not cause any notable pressure to the upper or lower bearing surfaces. Even after putting many thousands of miles on VR6's with very aggressive clutches (particularly very high pressure PP's) we have not seen any wear that has caused concern. 
I agree with Brian though, you do not want to run a super heavy pressure plate unless you have to. 
BTW: the clamping pressure of a pressure plate can be increased while decreasing the pedal pressure (making the clutch feel even softer). So a softer pedal feel does not always equal a softer pressure plate...these are the tricks to keeping performance parts street able








-Rich



_Modified by eiprich at 7:09 PM 12-9-2003_


----------



## Hardcore VW (Oct 9, 2001)

*Re: (Marty)*

>>so it will only exert added force to the thrust washers and will have no effect on the main bearing wear surfaces, but yes you obviously WILL be pushing harder on your thrust washers<<
I think the "confusion" is because the thrust washers come with the main bearings.


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (Hardcore VW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Hardcore VW* »_Did you have your hand on your hip with one foot pointed 90deg when you said that?
hahahahhahahahahahhahahah


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (eiprich)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eiprich* »_
Well Marty you are 100% wrong and then again you are also 100% right... 
When you depress the clutch pedal, the lever arm pushes the T/O (release) bearing into the pressure plate and the diaphragm of the PP then levers the contact surface away from the disc (via a fulcrum point). The result is hundreds (or thousands) of pounds of pressure is then applied to the disc, flywheel, and crank and ultimately to the thrust bearings whose job it is to stop the crank from moving out of alignment with the cylinder bores. So you are right, there is Zero wear difference with even our duel diaphragm clutch disc until you apply the clutch but the clutch pushes against the crank (it doesn't pull it) and tries to move the nose of the crank toward the passenger side of the vehicle (in the case of a VR6 or 4cyl VW). I realize this is sort of trivial but for the sake of accuracy I felt I should mention it. 
As for main bearing wear, I agree with you that there (and we have never seen any signs of this) should be no premature main bearing wear because as you indicated the pressure being applied is along the centerline axis of the crank and should not cause any notable pressure to the upper or lower bearing surfaces. Even after putting many thousands of miles on VR6's with very aggressive clutches (particularly very high pressure PP's) we have not seen any wear that has caused concern. 
I agree with Brian though, you do not want to run a super heavy pressure plate unless you have to. 
BTW: the clamping pressure of a pressure plate can be increased while decreasing the pedal pressure (making the clutch feel even softer). So a softer pedal feel does not always equal a softer pressure plate...these are the tricks to keeping performance parts street able








-Rich
_Modified by eiprich at 3:34 PM 12-9-2003_

Push, pull, whatever, my point was only when and along what axis the force was applied. You got me.







Glad to see someone agrees. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
However I fall into the category of "having to" run a stiffer pressure plate. I'm not going to run an agressive disc with a super high coefficient of friction and deal with harsh engagement just to avoid a higher clamp load pressure plate. But I drive my car on the street. Maybe it makes more sense to deal with harsh engagement and a stock pressure plate for a track-only car, but those cars shift even less often, and I can't imagine that the loads sent through the driveline during harsh engagement are that much better than the loads on the thrust washers from a stiffer pressure plate...


_Modified by Marty at 1:55 PM 12-9-2003_


----------



## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: (Hardcore VW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Hardcore VW* »_I think the "confusion" is because the thrust washers come with the main bearings.

Not on the VR6, they are seperate parts that are packaged and sold separatly...your thinking of your lil' 4cyl Justin!








-Rich


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## Hardcore VW (Oct 9, 2001)

*Re: (eiprich)*

yeah no doubt!,when someone says anything I think 4cyl. Funny cause a friend of mine build a SC SBC (now turbo) he thought it was running weird so he had me listen to it,I said "Honestly,it sounds liek it has too many cylinders"!! hahaha I couldn't tell wtf........I'm only semi good at what I have/ had


----------



## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: (Hardcore VW)*

Seems the KEY is not what wears what or when but what you intend for your car. If you are like Rich and it is a track car that you beat on for low 1/4mile runs or are you like me and Marty who are into driving daily on the street. 
I spent a good few months or more doing research on how the diffrent kits work and how they drive. Sense I am a street person who will only take it to the track now and then I was more into life span, clutch feel and how it holds the power. Last was cost.
That is a big plus with the Kevlar as it feels stock yet when I do that hard fast shift from 1st to 2nd it just grabs and goes yet I have seen these kits with 100,000 miles and the flywheel looked new.
It also depends on your budjet. I be a POOR person..







So I went with the Kevlar kit it as it was at a price I could deal with but it is also known that a Kevlar clutch can last a VERY long time yet hold good power.
It would not suprise me if I get a good 100,000 miles even at near 300 
HP.2cents..LOL


----------



## 50CENT (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: (Scooter98144)*

I'll never understand the way people think on Vortex. I think cause your all older then me is probably why. Seems to me that you guys spend too much time, money and aggravation to see what works. If half the people on here could actually drive a fast vr they would get 40-50k out of a copper disk at 400whp. You put anything over 300 or 350whp to that Kevlar clutch it will not hold. Once that disk spins once then its shot. So then you have possibly a warped PP and flywheel. Good job you saved alot O'money. Just my 50cent
Brian


----------



## eiprich (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: (50CENT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *50CENT* »_...You put anything over 300 or 350whp to that Kevlar clutch it will not hold. Once that disk spins once then its shot. So then you have possibly a warped PP and flywheel....

He's right, that has been our experience as well, we reserve the mild materials for lower hp NA cars, all of the high hp kits have more aggressive materials, even a much higher clamping PP's will not keep you from spinning and warping a fiber based disc when you make bigger power. 
I have an analogy: Brake pads...lets compare long lasting fiber based pads (like stock) to a more aggressive steel based pad (like a Performance Friction). With the fiber pad they last can last a long time when used gently, BUT when you need to do repeated long hard stops, what happens, brake fade...press the pedal harder (like a higher pressure PP) what is the result, more fade and warped rotors and smoke, flames, etc. 
Use a more aggressive pad and the result may be a little less life but when you need to make those hard stops they are working, with a little heat even gentle brake pressure (like a moderate pressure PP) gets you a good hard decel and no warped rotors. Just a thought.
-Rich


_Modified by eiprich at 9:30 PM 12-9-2003_


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (50CENT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *50CENT* »_I'll never understand the way people think on Vortex. I think cause your all older then me is probably why. Seems to me that you guys spend too much time, money and aggravation to see what works. If half the people on here could actually drive a fast vr they would get 40-50k out of a copper disk at 400whp. You put anything over 300 or 350whp to that Kevlar clutch it will not hold. Once that disk spins once then its shot. So then you have possibly a warped PP and flywheel. Good job you saved alot O'money. Just my 50cent
Brian









You could put 500+ hp through my kevlar clutch all day long, as long as you don't exceed it's 320 ft-lbs torque rating.


----------



## 50CENT (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
You could put 500+ hp through my kevlar clutch all day long, as long as you don't exceed it's 320 ft-lbs torque rating.









My exact point! Your car has 550+ whp and 325tq I think not. So once again Hearsay no proof. A VR producing 325tq will most likely make around 300whp. So I'm right your clutch will not hold over 350whp. I seen bone stock clutches hold 300lb/ft of tq so your set is good for 25lbs. Let me say thats well worth the money








Brian


_Modified by 50CENT at 10:03 PM 12-9-2003_


----------



## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: (50CENT)*

Well all I know is I make 244 in torq and 280hp. Next summer that will be up in the 260+ torq and over 300 HP. The clutch is rated for 385 in torq so I will not be close to its Max rating. 
So we will see how many years I get out of it. I agree with Rich if I was going to the track every day I may have gone a diffrent route. Considering I got 120,000 miles from a stock clutch and 20,000 miles of that was with 280hp I am not worried about the kevlar clutch going out any time soon. Again it also had a good price to boot.
If that turns out diffrent any time soon I will bring it up again. But so far it has been a very nice clutch. Smooth as silk yet like I have said before when I shift that sucker as fast as I can and just let the foot off the clutch. It just yanks and goes like a bat out of hell.
Again I think you have to look at your needs as well as driving style then decide what is best for you. It is hard to go wrong.


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## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: (50CENT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *50CENT* »_
My exact point! Your car has 550+ whp and 325tq I think not. So once again Hearsay no proof. A VR producing 325tq will most likely make around 300whp. So I'm right your clutch will not hold over 350whp. I seen bone stock clutches hold 300lb/ft of tq so your set is good for 25lbs. Let me say thats well worth the money








Brian

_Modified by 50CENT at 10:03 PM 12-9-2003_


The Spec Stage2 clutch is rated for 385 ft/lbs Marty's may be less as it is full faced. But maybe he can speak more on that topic.
He ment that his clutch could easly take 500+hp and over 350 in torq. NOT that was what his car is making. I am not saying this set up is the best I am just saying for my driving style it is best.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (50CENT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *50CENT* »_
My exact point! Your car has 550+ whp and 325tq I think not. So once again Hearsay no proof. A VR producing 325tq will most likely make around 300whp. So I'm right your clutch will not hold over 350whp. I seen bone stock clutches hold 300lb/ft of tq so your set is good for 25lbs. Let me say thats well worth the money








Brian

_Modified by 50CENT at 10:03 PM 12-9-2003_

My joking point was only that the clutches are rated for torque, not power.


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## I am Jack's VR6 (Sep 18, 2001)

*Re: (50CENT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *50CENT* »_
I seen bone stock clutches hold 300lb/ft of tq so your set is good for 25lbs. Let me say thats well worth the money








Brian

_Modified by 50CENT at 10:03 PM 12-9-2003_

I am proof of this.
I am still using the stock disk and pp (75k on both) and it hasn't ever even slipped on me yet. I'm not quite sure of how much wheel torque I am making but it's got to be close to 300. Of course I don't ever drag race and I resrain myself to minimal boost in 1st, but I let her rip from second up.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (Marty)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Marty* »_
You could put 500+ hp through my kevlar clutch all day long, as long as you don't exceed it's 320 ft-lbs torque rating.









That'd mean that he'd make 320 of torque at 8206.25rpm's in order to get you the 500hp and 320ft-lbs torque.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (eiprich)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eiprich* »_
Not on the VR6, they are seperate parts that are packaged and sold separatly...your thinking of your lil' 4cyl Justin!








-Rich

lil 4cyl? bring yo ish


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (killa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_
That'd mean that he'd make 320 of torque at 8206.25rpm's in order to get you the 500hp and 320ft-lbs torque.

Exactly.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (eiprich)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eiprich* »_
He's right, that has been our experience as well, we reserve the mild materials for lower hp NA cars, all of the high hp kits have more aggressive materials, even a much higher clamping PP's will not keep you from spinning and warping a fiber based disc when you make bigger power. 
I have an analogy: Brake pads...lets compare long lasting fiber based pads (like stock) to a more aggressive steel based pad (like a Performance Friction). With the fiber pad they last can last a long time when used gently, BUT when you need to do repeated long hard stops, what happens, brake fade...press the pedal harder (like a higher pressure PP) what is the result, more fade and warped rotors and smoke, flames, etc. 
Use a more aggressive pad and the result may be a little less life but when you need to make those hard stops they are working, with a little heat even gentle brake pressure (like a moderate pressure PP) gets you a good hard decel and no warped rotors. Just a thought.
-Rich

_Modified by eiprich at 9:30 PM 12-9-2003_

I understand what you're trying to say, but I think it has limited application because you don't operate your clutch like your brakes. The analogy works if you remove ABS and just lock your wheels every time you hit the brakes. Now it would take a significant number of applications of locked brakes to begin heating up the rotors and pads to experience what you talk about. You would have to purposely abuse the locking brakes (by "riding" them, like they are normally used outside of this analogy) to get them to act like the clutch in your analogy.
Obviously a higher clamp load PP and a kevlar disc isn't going to prevent you from spinning and damaging materials if you exceed the specs. Now many some setups are more or less destructive when their specs are exceeded, making them more desirable for extreme setups or on the track.
Don't mind me, I'll argue anything, including against myself.


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## apr2009gti (Sep 25, 2003)

*Re: (GTRTim)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTRTim* »_
Aight... and Brian is speaking from experience also... You would think by now you would realize everything we speak in this forum is from xperience. But lets see I ran clutchnet 6puck sprung/stock pp as my first disc 400wtq and had zero issues... lasted a year except when I tryed to do a 2nd gear burnout on the street no reving high enough, I spun the disc pretty bad... and it still lasted me another 20 or so 1/4 mile passes on slicks... 
Bill with the Red A2 gti, still had the original 6puck sprung disc in his car and it still running strong also with 400wtq... So yes we speak from experience


UGHHH. I had emailed clutchnet and was told that the 6 puck sprung with their pressure plate would only hold around 350ft/lbs and they type 1x pressure plate would hold 415ft/lbs. Then I search around on the vortex and guys are using the stock pressure plate at 400ft/lbs of torque!


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## apr2009gti (Sep 25, 2003)

*Re: (ryker77)*

just how much torque do you guys think a clutchnet 6 puck sprung clutch could hold with a OEM pressure plate on a 2001 TDI?


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