# fox front suspension, maybe Audi 4000, maybe Audi B3, maybe combo of both?



## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

I know a lot of stuff has been written about various methods to lower Foxes. So I am not going to cover that. 

A lot of us think in terms of VW interchangeability, when we think of modifying the Fox. I have a tendency to think of Audi, when I think of modifying the Fox. I have had a couple of Audis and think along those lines. One of the reasons I bought a Fox vs a different older VW. We have a car that is using late 70s and early 80s Audi technology. Think Audi Fox and early 4000. So I started collecting a few parts, for a Fox project I am working on. Nothing written on the project, but this is something to think about. 

The Fox axle uses a outer CV joint that uses a 68mm bearing with a nut on the end this very similar to other VWs and early Audis. The Audi4000 uses the same type outer CV. The B3(Audi 80/90) uses a 75mm outer CV with a bolt holding the axle to the hub. But the big difference is, the 89 to 92 B3 has two piece struts. I hate one piece struts. A pain when it comes to changing springs, shocks, and upper strut mounts. 

So below we have a Fox axle. 










A litte closer look 










So this next picture has the B3 outer CV joint attached to the Fox axle. 










As you can see the CV slips right on the Fox axle. Uses the same little circlip to temporarily hold on the CV as the Fox CV. Instead of using a nut, the B3 uses a bolt to hold the axle to the hub carrier. 

In the next picture, we have a side by side comparison between the Fox Strut and the Audi B3 Strut. 










From this picture you can see a couple of things. 
(1) Late B3 strut is a two piece. Great thing. 
(2) The B3 lower spring perch is exactly the same as the Fox lower spring perch. Good thing. 
(3) Even though the Audi B3, 4000, Coupe and Fox all us the same shock insert, the B3 tapers at the top, and the Fox does not. Good/Bad thing? 
(4) The B3 and Fox use the same tie rod end. 
(5) The B3 tie rod arm is a little over 1 inch lower on the strut than the Fox tie rod arm. This could be a good thing for a lowered car. 
(6) The B3 Strut is about 1/2 shorter than the Fox strut. So you get a 1/2 drop just using the B3 Strut. 
(7) One problem is the ball joint. The B3 uses a 19mm ball joint vs a 17mm for the Fox. This problem could be solved by using a lower 4000 control arm which can use either a 17 or 19mm ball joint. 

A problem does occur if you use the B3 strut. The hub is designed for a 4X108 rotor. And no, there is no replacement 4X100 hub that will fit(not that I have found one). But this is not and unsolvable problem. You can have the hub drilled and threaded to 4X100. Offset the holes 90 degrees. 

The B3 comes with the upgraded G54 girling brakes, so you can have the 256mm rotor slotted to 4X100. The B3 hub carrier also allows the use of the G60 girling brakes, with would allow you to run the 276mm front brakes. You cannot do this with the Fox strut, without paying a couple of hundred dollars for the Sirocco front brake adapter. 

The hub itself for wheel fitment is the same for either a 4X100 or 4X108 wheel. 57.3mm. So with the hub mod as described above, you can still run your VW wheels. 

Next chapter will have a comparison of a Fox lower suspension vs a Audi 4000 lower suspension. 

Greg W.


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## snowfox (Apr 4, 2002)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: I like the direction this thread is going. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## voxwagen88 (Dec 9, 2001)

*Real Car Parts*



snowfox said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: I like the direction this thread is going. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


 x2 

Dual Pattern Hubs! 
Camber bolts! 
And with the 4K lower arms - 034 Poly Bushings! 

Looking forward to the next installment.


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

voxwagen88 said:


> x2
> 
> Dual Pattern Hubs!
> Camber bolts!
> ...


 Exactly. 

Don't expect timely installments. I am rather slow, as I have other commitments in the fire. Like rebuilding a house, working for a living, working on the Audi Coupe, and last is the Fox. 

But I will get there. 

My mechanic friend who just last week bought an 87 4kq is doing this B3 conversion also. We went to a pick-a-part in the desert and scored great. Two 85 4kqs and a B3, so we came home with a lot of parts. Of course, being Calif. the parts just need a little cleaning up. No rust to speak of. 

Greg W.


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## Mr Roo (Aug 8, 2006)

The controll arms are a big mystery to me. I have been told by a few that the 4000 control arms fit and give better camber options and adjustment. There was a fox for sale in the forums that said he swapped to 4K control arms. Itf these with the struts fit, that opens a whole world of options for us.


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## doppelfaust (Aug 15, 2007)

I like this thread, it needs a sticky.


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## 2mAn (Oct 15, 2006)

can get some more pics of the entire front suspension. im wondering how much of it will work in a mk1 chassis


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## Banned wagon (Mar 3, 2004)

:thumbup: i like this thread


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## QuantumSyncro (Apr 28, 2000)

good post, when's the next edition coming out?

steve a


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## Mr Roo (Aug 8, 2006)

Can someone tell me the advantage of the 2 piece struts? I know the guys on motor geek all swap to them, I just never knew what it does over a one piece.


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## QuantumSyncro (Apr 28, 2000)

Mr Roo said:


> Can someone tell me the advantage of the 2 piece struts? I know the guys on motor geek all swap to them, I just never knew what it does over a one piece.


It gives you greater control over camber adjustment.

steve a


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

Mr Roo said:


> Can someone tell me the advantage of the 2 piece struts? I know the guys on motor geek all swap to them, I just never knew what it does over a one piece.


If you have a upper strut mount go bad, a shock, a snubber, etc. you don't have to remove the axle to get the strut out.

Let say you are playing with springs to get the ride height you want? Easier to remove the strut, without having to take out the axle. 4 bolts and the whole strut assembly comes out.

Waiting on some new parts, before the next chapter. Got new bearings, cv boots, sway bar busings, etc. coming.

Greg W.


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

A little update. I am still waiting for the machinist to drill and tap the hubs. Also slot the rotors. But here are some pictures with updates on fitting up.

The next couple of pictures are a comparison between a 4000 4 cylinder subframe and Fox subframe. Both top and bottom.





































This next picture shows why you just can't use the 4000 subframe on the Fox. The frame mounting locations are in a different location than the Fox.










The next pictures shows a Fox control arm attached to one side of a Fox subframe and the 4000 front control arm attached to the other side. This 4000 front control arm is from a 4KQ. The 4KQ front control is also the same front control arm as the later 4000 FWD and the early B3 arm. So you can use either. You can tell if you have the right one, as it has the rubber grommet for the 4000 sway bar. We will get into that later.






































As you can see the 4000 control arms will bolt up, using either the Fox control arm bolts, or the 4000/B3 control arms bolts.

I assembled one of the struts to show what parts I used from the varies cars to get one put together.

In a previous post, I noted that the Jetta springs are almost identical to the Fox front springs. Just upside down. Since I found a set of Neuspeed springs for a jetta in the junk yard for cheap, I am using them. The neuspeed spring is a little tight fit on the lower spring perch, but it does work with a little persuasion. 

This picture shows the front springs in there normal set up.










The next picture shows the Jetta Neuspeed spring flipped.










I used a Koni shocks from a Audi CoupeQ(same as 4000 or B3 shock), the neuspeed jetta springs, the B3 snubber and cover, the Fox upper spring perch, Fox strut mount, and B3 nut(a little larger than the Fox one). 

This picture shows the strut assembled and all the parts laid out that were used to put it together.










This picture shows a little mod I made to the Fox upper spring perch. Upper spring perches rarely come with location tabs. Bottoms do, upper don't. So I added a couple. I like to know that the spring is located properly.










The Audi 4000 4 cylinder subframe weighs 18 lbs. Even thought the Fox subframe is slightly smaller, it weighs 22 lbs. It is made out of a heavier gauge metal.

Next update when I get my hubs and rotors back.

Greg W.


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

FYI, for those who stay with the Fox front suspension. Like the axles, the front controls are identical side to side..

Greg W.


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## voxwagen88 (Dec 9, 2001)

Great Stuff!

How do the subframe bushings compare? Is there a chance the 034 Small Audi Metal Bushings could be used on the Fox Subframe?

Can hardly wait for the next installment.


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## SN2BJDM (Aug 20, 2004)

This thread is awesome! Could the fox hub be used instead of doing all the redrilling? Awaits next installment. Glad this popped up bringing my 3rd fox home tonight so im ready to drop, wheel, and lip it lol


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

voxwagen88 said:


> Great Stuff!
> 
> How do the subframe bushings compare? Is there a chance the 034 Small Audi Metal Bushings could be used on the Fox Subframe?
> 
> Can hardly wait for the next installment.


Don't know about the subframe bushings? They look similiar, but I can't do a comparison with them in the subframes. You also have to remember that this is a 4000 4 cylinder subframe, and the 034 product is designed for small chassis Quattro subframes, so you will have to find this out on your own. Ask 034. You could do subframe bushing, whether or not you do the strut change.




SN2BJDM said:


> This thread is awesome! Could the fox hub be used instead of doing all the redrilling? Awaits next installment. Glad this popped up bringing my 3rd fox home tonight so im ready to drop, wheel, and lip it lol


The Fox hub uses a 68mm bearing. The B3 hub uses a 75mm stepped bearing. Fox hub will not fit. But remember the hub drilling is a one time cost. The benefit of being able to remove the struts without having to undo the axle and better camber control, more than offsets the cost.

Greg W.


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## Mr Roo (Aug 8, 2006)

I am getting the impression that if you use the 4000 control arms it may be possible to use 4000 sway bars as well?


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## QuantumSyncro (Apr 28, 2000)

Mr Roo said:


> I am getting the impression that if you use the 4000 control arms it may be possible to use 4000 sway bars as well?


I think the answer to your question is yes.

My concern is whether the strut insert has enough travel to deal with the difference between the Fox coil and the Neuspeed coil spring. If not I think it's a great idea.

steve a


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

Mr Roo said:


> I am getting the impression that if you use the 4000 control arms it may be possible to use 4000 sway bars as well?


That is coming in the forthcoming chapter, but that is one of the reasons for using this suspension. Of course, you would not need to use the B3 struts, you could just use the 4000 control arms with a 4000 17mm ball joint, on the Fox subframe. The 4000 uses the same center mounting brackets as the Fox. The 4000 control arms would allow you to use either the 22mm FWD or the 26mm Quattro sway bar. 

Pictures will follow after I get my hubs and rotors back.

Greg W.


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

QuantumSyncro said:


> My concern is whether the strut insert has enough travel to deal with the difference between the Fox coil and the Neuspeed coil spring. If not I think it's a great idea.
> 
> steve a


This is a standard length koni shock. It was on my Coupe with coilovers. It was the same length as the stock Fox strut.

Greg W.


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## voxwagen88 (Dec 9, 2001)

90quattrocoupe said:


> The 4000 control arms would allow you to use either the 22mm FWD or the 26mm Quattro sway bar.


But would you be able to use the stock Fox bar? Or do you have to go to a 4K bar?

On the edge of my seat waiting for the hubs to come back.


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## SN2BJDM (Aug 20, 2004)

Im curious as well, justt seems like a lot of bar up front on such a small car. Recipe for understeer. Guess you get a big gti rsb to even it out for a really flat setup.


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## Mr Roo (Aug 8, 2006)

I have to say this is the best fox news I have heard in a long time? For the first time I am excited and ready to hit my local junk yards


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## Kinavo (Dec 20, 2005)

subscribed! waiting for more.


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

voxwagen88 said:


> But would you be able to use the stock Fox bar? Or do you have to go to a 4K bar?
> 
> On the edge of my seat waiting for the hubs to come back.


The Fox bar uses a method for attaching the bar to the control arm simliar to the method used to hold the bar to the subframe. Will not work with the later 4000 arms. Need the one of the 4K bars.



SN2BJDM said:


> Im curious as well, justt seems like a lot of bar up front on such a small car. Recipe for understeer. Guess you get a big gti rsb to even it out for a really flat setup.


I agree. I will be using a SB in the rear. As to what type, I don't know yet. Probably, either Neuspeed 28mm, GTI/Jetta bar, or a Addco.

Greg


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## QuantumSyncro (Apr 28, 2000)

Do you happen to know what model neuspeed springs you're using in this project? 

thx 

steve a


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

QuantumSyncro said:


> Do you happen to know what model neuspeed springs you're using in this project?
> thx
> steve a


 This is the set that I found in the junk yard. 

http://www2.neuspeed.com/38/2/0/1750/551012-neuspeed-sport-spring-kit.html 

I am figuring for the Fox that I will have to cut one or two windings out of the spring. It will be easier to tell once I have them installed. Of course, with the B3 front suspension, taking out the front struts will be a cake walk, compared to Fox Strut. 

Greg W.


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## QuantumSyncro (Apr 28, 2000)

90quattrocoupe said:


> This is the set that I found in the junk yard.
> 
> http://www2.neuspeed.com/38/2/0/1750/551012-neuspeed-sport-spring-kit.html
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the info, unfortunately the set of neuspeed springs I have here at home is the Mk2 sofsport line so they may be inappropriate for the Fox. 

Looking forward to seeing where this is going to end up. 

steve a


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## the brit (Jun 23, 2003)

Nice writeup, added to the FAQs :thumbup:


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## the brit (Jun 23, 2003)

I seem to remember this being discussed in the past and that there was a OEM 4x100 hub that will fit, but I can't remember what the solution was  Having the hub drilled for both is a nice option though, especially when it's easy to do the same on the rears, or even just having a different set of rotors with bearings ready to go if you change your wheels out.


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

the brit said:


> Nice writeup, added to the FAQs :thumbup:


 Thanks for doing that, but maybe you should have waited until it was complete. I may stumble across a problem, that will turn the whole thing to naught. 

Greg W.


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

QuantumSyncro said:


> Thanks for the info, unfortunately the set of neuspeed springs I have here at home is the Mk2 sofsport line so they may be inappropriate for the Fox.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing where this is going to end up.
> steve a


 What is the difference? What makes a Sofsport, vs. a standard sport spring? A little while back when I first found these springs, Neuspeed did not have the sofsports listed. 

Greg W.


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## VDub2625 (Jan 4, 2003)

Sofsports: 

http://www2.neuspeed.com/38/2/0/1753/551016-neuspeed-sofsport-spring-kit.html 

basically a little less low.


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## QuantumSyncro (Apr 28, 2000)

Yes, the regular sport springs lower aprox 1.5" (ish) in the front but the sofsports lower maybe .5" which is really not worth talking about. 

Not sure why they would even bother offering a spring that only lowers car by .5", and not offer anything for the Fox anymore. 

steve a


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## VDub2625 (Jan 4, 2003)

Disgruntled much?  

The stock mk2 springs may even lower a Fox. That would be wroth checking just in case, as a good baseline. Who knows how low the lowering springs re going to put it.


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## QuantumSyncro (Apr 28, 2000)

hey...life is all about being disgruntled as much as you want  no really, it's more sarcasm than disgruntled, I just think it's odd that one would keep a line of production for a minor lowering spring for a car that at best is now 19 years old yet not have anything for a Fox. Then again sales dictate production and if there's no demand then why offer it. 

I'm wating to see what the B3 / neuspeed setup accompishes. I have to believe that it will do some good. The rear is where it could get tricky. 

steve a


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

*Ok, big mistake on my part*

Made a beginners error. I didn't check everything. I made an assumption that was wrong.

*4000 control arms unless modified will not work on Fox subframe*

I didn't compare the Fox control arm directly with the 4000/early B3 control arm.










See anything wrong in this picture. I do. The 4000 control arm is longer than the Fox control arm. Using the 4000 and Fox 17mm ball joints, I measured the bottom side to the center of the ball joint from the rod I inserted in the bushings. Difference. Approximately, *1 inch*.

Now even though the 4000 ball joint has slots in it and the Fox control arm has slots, I could not push in the 4000 ball joint far enough in on the Fox arm to make up the difference. I should have thought about it before, since the 4000 is a wider car than the Fox.

Well, maybe the Fox subframe is a little narrower at the control arm mounts than the 4000. This would help a little.



















No, the Fox gods were not with me on this one. With the 4000 subframe being a 1/4 inch narrower, this makes the problem worse. So I am dealing with approximately 1 1/8 inch to much control arm length. Well, I could modify the 4000 control arms(I really like the idea of using 4000 sway bars), or I could build my own arms. But I want this to be as close as possible to bolt on, so others may be able to use without a lot of fabrication. 

So I look at the ball joints for all three cars. Fox, 4000 and early B3.










Now these ball joints are very similar. The Fox ball joint does not have slotted mounting holes as the Fox control arms has the slots. But other than that, the B3 19mm is very usable. This may even allow a little more variation in camber. The ball joint uses a plate on the top for the fox, ball joint bolt up. I will probably use a second plate on the bottom. On the Fox, the bolts are pressed into the plate. On the B3 the bolts are separate. I will use the B3 system, as the bolts are higher strength.










Well, that is where we stand at the moment. I have my hubs and rotors back from the machinist, so more stuff to come. Need to put new bearings in the hub carriers, and put in the hubs.

Greg W.


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## Mr Roo (Aug 8, 2006)

So a question about the guy in the forums that was selling a fox with 4000 control arms. How or what did he modify to make them work? also if you got them to work am I assuming your wheels would poke an extra inch on each side?


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## VDub2625 (Jan 4, 2003)

I was thinking maybe it would just have extreme camber which some see as cool. With the b3 struts though and upper camber adjustment I'm sure the difference will be negligible, even if you did use the longer ball joints. You'll just gain front track width (which is good for FWD).


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

Mr Roo said:


> So a question about the guy in the forums that was selling a fox with 4000 control arms. How or what did he modify to make them work? also if you got them to work am I assuming your wheels would poke an extra inch on each side?


The biggest problem is the increased camber. It would be way too much. Have you ever seen a Honda that has been lowered without the after market, camber adjusters? Not a pretty site.

Using the Fox control arm with the later B3 19mm ball joint will give you plenty of adjustment. 



VDub2625 said:


> I was thinking maybe it would just have extreme camber which some see as cool. With the b3 struts though and upper camber adjustment I'm sure the difference will be negligible, even if you did use the longer ball joints. You'll just gain front track width (which is good for FWD).


There is no upper camber adjustment on a B3 strut. The upper part of the strut is the same as the Fox. The only available camber adjustment, is to buy aftermarket camber bolts that fit in the upper mounting hole for the hub carrier. But these only give you a max +-3%. Not enough to make up for the one inch at the bottom.

By the way, the ball joint isn't longer the control arm is.

Greg W.


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## VDub2625 (Jan 4, 2003)

Sorry, I meant the non-adjustable Fox ball joint, and/or the 17mm 4000 one if I read you right.

I also meant the adjustable pivot point between the wheel bearing housing and the strut tube (this is a standard adjustment on the Mk2s I'm used to). They do make camber bolts for Mk2s soi figured that'd be enough. Camber would still be extreme but it'd certianly be a fun (interesting) ride with a little toe out


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

VDub2625 said:


> Sorry, I meant the non-adjustable Fox ball joint, and/or the 17mm 4000 one if I read you right.
> 
> I also meant the adjustable pivot point between the wheel bearing housing and the strut tube (this is a standard adjustment on the Mk2s I'm used to). They do make camber bolts for Mk2s soi figured that'd be enough. Camber would still be extreme but it'd certianly be a fun (interesting) ride with a little toe out


Probably the same camber adjusting bolts. Interesting to say the least. Tires would probably last about 4 weeks. :sly:

Greg W.


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## mike in SC (Apr 29, 2004)

I'm coming in late with this, but I'll add this for the benfit of the group.
When I lowered my wagon I used neuspeed springs. I know the seller stated he used them on a Corrado. I don't remember if they were the sports or the soft sports.

The rear springs have "used up" the soft part of the spring, while the front has a little bit of give until the spring firms.

part number 55.10.12/20f

Currently looking for B3 strut housings....

Thanks for the photos and research.


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## Biodome (Dec 7, 2000)

Weren't the early Audi 4000 5+5 cars 4x100 bolt pattern? Pretty sure they were. Wonder if those hubs would work with the B3 spindles, and if so, if that would allow the use of the Fox outer CV joints?

I love this thread.


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## QuantumSyncro (Apr 28, 2000)

Biodome said:


> Weren't the early Audi 4000 5+5 cars 4x100 bolt pattern? Pretty sure they were. Wonder if those hubs would work with the B3 spindles, and if so, if that would allow the use of the Fox outer CV joints?
> 
> I love this thread.


Yes, some of the 4k were 4x100 but the entire 4k line used the same bearing carrier / strut housing as the fox so (unfortunately) it's a moot point. The separate carrier / strut assembly only came into being with the B3 audi cars at which time they discontinued the 4x100 bolt pattern.

I think the way it goes (don't quote me) is that all 4k 4 cyl cars got 4x100 while the 5 cyl and quattro cars (all 5 cyl too) got the 4x108 bolt pattern. By the time the B3 series came out and they moved to the new bearing carrier / hub they dropped 4x100 completely.

I do hope we can get a resolution to this that uses easily locatable stock components.

Good work too!

steve a


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## VDub2625 (Jan 4, 2003)

I think maybe he meant that maybe the 4k had a bigger wheel bearing to allow the different hub? or are the bearing sizes dependent on the strut housing type?


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## QuantumSyncro (Apr 28, 2000)

VDub2625 said:


> I think maybe he meant that maybe the 4k had a bigger wheel bearing to allow the different hub? or are the bearing sizes dependent on the strut housing type?


Yes, I think that's what he was alluding to but all the longitudinal cars used the same one piece bearing carrier / strut housing prior to the Audi B3, at which time they changed to the larger bearing and discarded the 4x100 bolt hub. AFAIK these are the alternatives we have from the factory.

I don't mind using the B3 outboard CV and it resolves the bearing problem but you have to invest in having the hub bored to 4x100, which is a pain but will have to be done.


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## A3 Jed-duh (Aug 10, 2006)

Biodome said:


> I love this thread.


X2! I have a Dasher that could benefit from this. Also, bitchin Fox you have Biodome! Saw it on D.O.G.


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## Biodome (Dec 7, 2000)

A3 Jed-duh said:


> X2! I have a Dasher that could benefit from this. Also, bitchin Fox you have Biodome! Saw it on D.O.G.


Thanks! Although its not a VW Fox, this thread still applies to me. 

And ya, I follow you on the bearing size issue. So, the 5+5 would have been 4x108, so I guess I meant the small motored car. But ya, early car equals small bearing. To be honest, I was just hoping to avoid paying for a redrill, as well as paying for a couple (used) axles. But, as they say, if you want to play, you gotta pay.


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

Biodome said:


> To be honest, I was just hoping to avoid paying for a redrill, as well as paying for a couple (used) axles. But, as they say, if you want to play, you gotta pay.


Remember, you only have to pay for the hubs to be redrilled and tapped. A one time expense. You can drill the rotors yourself. 
You don't need the whole B3 axle, just the outer CV joint. Cut boot, and pull the out CV off. Pay for just what you need.

Greg W.


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## QuantumSyncro (Apr 28, 2000)

90quattrocoupe said:


> Remember, you only have to pay for the hubs to be redrilled and tapped. A one time expense. You can drill the rotors yourself.
> You don't need the whole B3 axle, just the outer CV joint. Cut boot, and pull the out CV off. Pay for just what you need.
> 
> Greg W.


I'm not arguing with any of the costs involved, I think it'll be very cheap price wise, especially with what you have when you're done.

steve a


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## QuantumSyncro (Apr 28, 2000)

Here's another thought, and not that it will go anywhere, but how does the B3 bearing carrier compare with say the A3 bearing carrier? Given that the A3 has a tie rod arm cast into it just how different are B3 vs A3? One could always have the tie rod arm removed, and it 1) avoids the hub issue and 2) if you get A3 it moves you to bigger brakes without having to locate the caliper bracket, you can just take the A3 brakes complete.

Visually the B3 looks beefier where it bolts to the strut assembly but that's not measuring, it's just a guess.

steve a


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## Biodome (Dec 7, 2000)

There's an Audi 90 in the yard near me, and I really want to grab the suspension off it.

I'm thinking I'll need the strut assemblies, hub carriers, brakes, and ball joints.

Will the late B3 19mm ball joints work in the Fox control arms? And what brake lines will I end up using? Fox?


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## QuantumSyncro (Apr 28, 2000)

Biodome said:


> Will the late B3 19mm ball joints work in the Fox control arms? And what brake lines will I end up using? Fox?


Yes they will, check the photo above. You also need the outer CV from the 90 axle shaft as long as it's good.


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## Biodome (Dec 7, 2000)

Right, forgot about the outer CVs. 

Just realized that almost without a doubt, that the new calipers are going to require a larger master cylinder. Wonder what'll work?


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## VDub2625 (Jan 4, 2003)

It should bolt on the same as any VW or Audi from the period. The factory 90 or a VW 10.1 should be fine. The also sometimes used a different booster size, i don't know if the Fox's booster is smaller than it could be.


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## the brit (Jun 23, 2003)

VDub2625 said:


> It should bolt on the same as any VW or Audi from the period. The factory 90 or a VW 10.1 should be fine. The also sometimes used a different booster size, i don't know if the Fox's booster is smaller than it could be.


Mk3 bigger booster is a quick and easy modification. Here's the how-to I made : http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3210209


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## VDub2625 (Jan 4, 2003)

Cool, i didn't know the Mk3 had a different booster connection to the pedal. mk2 is the same as Fox IIRC, that should bolt up with no issues, and you can use a Mk3 master cylinder. The Fox booster dosen't look smaller than the Mk3 one though?


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## the brit (Jun 23, 2003)

VDub2625 said:


> Cool, i didn't know the Mk3 had a different booster connection to the pedal. mk2 is the same as Fox IIRC, that should bolt up with no issues, and you can use a Mk3 master cylinder. The Fox booster dosen't look smaller than the Mk3 one though?


It allows you to run a later 22mm easily found mk3 master cylinder.


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## VDub2625 (Jan 4, 2003)

The Fox master cylinder mounting is different from Mk2/3/etc? i know Audi 5000 m/cs can be used as upgrades for Mk2 so I figured Fox would be the same.


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## ianwilson (Dec 10, 2009)

wait a second, did i just read that mk2 springs fit on foxes?


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

ianwilson said:


> wait a second, did i just read that mk2 springs fit on foxes?


Fronts yes, flipped. Rears wagon only.

Greg W.


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## ianwilson (Dec 10, 2009)

really?
cool, ill have to pick me up a set!:thumbup:


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## JGWarner (Oct 22, 2009)

ianwilson said:


> really?
> cool, ill have to pick me up a set!:thumbup:


You will of course remember that the BX is a bit lighter than an A2, and therfore stock and even moderate lowering springs might not give enough or any drop at all, hence the need for coil cutting... If you're going with just springs (and want to leave them intact) it seems Weitec's 60mm drop G60 Corrado springs would be better. They get $pricey$ tho.



the brit said:


> I seem to remember this being discussed in the past and that there was a OEM 4x100 hub that will fit, but I can't remember what the solution was


In response to that, here is a bit of a conversation I had with my uncle (a B chassis nut) just the other day:



my uncle said:


> ...4x100 lug for TDI. 5 lug was for VR6 up to 97...thats why getting a VR6 passat and converting it to TDI is very desirable for diesel guys...whole different suspension, brakes, ride height etc...


The early passat TDI might be the answer. He may have been mistaken, but it's worth looking into. However, those cars are rare to begin with.


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## ianwilson (Dec 10, 2009)

JGWarner said:


> You will of course remember that the BX is a bit lighter than an A2, and therfore stock and even moderate lowering springs might not give any or enough drop at all, hence the need for coil cutting... If you're going with just springs (and want to leave them intact) it seems 60mm drop corrado springs would be better. They get $pricey$ tho.


Ahh, true, i didnt factor in the weight.
thanks.:thumbup:


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## VDub2625 (Jan 4, 2003)

JGWarner said:


> The early passat TDI might be the answer. He may have been mistaken, but it's worth looking into. However, those cars are rare to begin with.


Early TDi has the same 4 lug suspension as any other 4 cyl Passat or Mk3. VR6 had wider track and 5 lug on both cars.


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## Three Wood (Nov 29, 2008)

90quattrocoupe said:


> The biggest problem is the increased camber.


The camber isn't as much of a problem as is the axles pulling apart.

Solution - don't use Fox axles, use 4cyl 4000 axles. Should work, no?


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## Gravzzy (Jan 6, 2011)

Hi guys, I've just rode the entire thread and all of that is precious data for me since I'm often having trouble sourcing replacement parts for my 4000s, like the broken coil spring I have to replace and my outer CV joints. I'm considering the B3 two piece struts housing conversion with oem coil springs but I want to make sure I have everything right at once since I'm working in cold and snow (pita...) so here are my questions: 

1-Does anyone know if ride height with OEM B3 strut housing/coil spring combo will be the same as with my stock 4000 one piece strut housing with oem coil springs? 

2-Can I just use B3 springs with my 4000 strut housing and keep the same ride height? (ride height has to be kept stock to go through deep snow and for trailer hauling) 

3-Can I put B3 front outer CV joints on my 4000 CV shafts like you do on Foxes? 

4-Do you know of another car's front coil spring that would fit a 4000? 

5-Can the brake setup (10" rotors) of a 4000 be used on the B3 strut housing or do I need to replace the brakes with the strut housings? It seems that B3 caliper has a different part number that 4000 ones... If I can't keep my brakes they'll probably be for sale since they're all new... 

Thanks a lot and keep posting pics of the project!!


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

Gravzzy said:


> Hi guys, I've just rode the entire thread and all of that is precious data for me since I'm often having trouble sourcing replacement parts for my 4000s, like the broken coil spring I have to replace and my outer CV joints. I'm considering the B3 two piece struts housing conversion with oem coil springs but I want to make sure I have everything right at once since I'm working in cold and snow (pita...) so here are my questions:
> 
> 1-Does anyone know if ride height with OEM B3 strut housing/coil spring combo will be the same as with my stock 4000 one piece strut housing with oem coil springs?
> 
> ...


 I am assuming we are talking about a 4KQ. 

1&2 The ride height will be higher if you use the B3 springs. The car weighs more than your 4KQ does. You should be able to use the 4000 springs in the B3 struts. 

3- You can use the outer CV from the B3. It will slip on the axle, just like it does with the Fox. 

4- You need to use the front brakes from the B3. The carriers are different on the 4000 vs. the B3. The calipers may be the same, but the carriers are different. 

Greg W.


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## QuantumSyncro (Apr 28, 2000)

VDub2625 said:


> Early TDi has the same 4 lug suspension as any other 4 cyl Passat or Mk3. VR6 had wider track and 5 lug on both cars.


 Yes, early TDI (both B4/A3) use same suspension (ex axle) from the 4x100 parts bin. IIRC the VR6 (both B4/A3) used same components from the "plus" suspension 5x100 parts bin. 



Three Wood said:


> The camber isn't as much of a problem as is the axles pulling apart.
> 
> Solution - don't use Fox axles, use 4cyl 4000 axles. Should work, no?


 The engine cradles are different widths so it might be a problem or it might work. The big problem is that you end up with a much wider front track than before and so you would have to shim the rear wheels to compensate visually. In the end you might run into rubbing problems.


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## Gravzzy (Jan 6, 2011)

I've been to the junkyard to do some prospection today and seen 3 Audi 90 from 3 different years and body styling, all non-quattro but all with the 4 bolt wheels and 10" brakes. Does all of these cars share the same front strut housing setup? And all the cars I've seen had cast iron control arms and 3 bolt ball joints: does the struts and knuckles from this setup fit the B2 Audis with 2 bolt ball joints?


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## Gravzzy (Jan 6, 2011)

I answered my questions by myself by picking up a front suspension on a B4 Audi 90 non Quattro this weekend and I compared the geometry of the struts with my 4000 ones and as far as I seen they'll interchange with no problem except that I'll need B3 ball joints to make it work. I'm waiting for my new strut cartriges, wheel bearings and ball joints to test fit the conversion on my 4000 using the stock B4 coil springs and see if there is a big difference in height (probably because B4 springs are identical to the B2 ones instead the wire diameter is bigger). I'll keep you updated with the results when I'll have the missing parts.


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## Gravzzy (Jan 6, 2011)

Hi all!

I finished the two piece strut housing conversion on my 4KQ using all the front setup from a FWD B4 90 with a 5 cylinder. Everything is fine except that the front of the car raised a bit less that one inch, just as expected... As the car already had rear sag like all 4KQ, it's now ridiculously higher in front. Does any of you have a set of 1.5" drop springs for a 90 B3 or B4 or a Coupe that they would sell? If it's a Quattro with rear tie rod ends like a 4000, then I'll take the four springs and if not I'll only take the front ones.

Thanks!


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## greggearhead (Jul 28, 2002)

Curious for my Audi Fox project - do you know if the VW Fox and Audi 4K Subframe Bushings interchage? 

Thanks


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## BenT Syncro (Oct 23, 2006)

Fantastic thread. Does this mean there's a chance for a Quattro Fox Wagon in somebody's future?


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## VDub2625 (Jan 4, 2003)

Haha, that's a bit extreme- 've heard that the Fox front suspension is borrowed from 4000, but the rear is specific to Fox- trailing beam and all. Would still take major work to get quattro in there. Depending on the body, it might be easier to get a syncro rear carrier in there...


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## BenT Syncro (Oct 23, 2006)

VDub2625 said:


> Haha, that's a bit extreme- 've heard that the Fox front suspension is borrowed from 4000, but the rear is specific to Fox- trailing beam and all. Would still take major work to get quattro in there. Depending on the body, it might be easier to get a syncro rear carrier in there...


Here's a Brazilian Gol AWD. It would be simpler to put a Quattro trans than importing the whole front drivetrain from Brazil. Although the rear is not easy, there are other options. I have a good custom driveshaft guy nearby and a fabricator who can make the rear control arms. Just have to find a Fox Wagon worth putting all this stuff in. Had to give my wagon to a client as a thank you for a deal.

Stole this pic link from 4wd Fox thread. Oops! I see another thread even older from 2003. Will have some reading to do.


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## chumpboy (Sep 14, 2012)

Has there been any updates or progress?

I have a 93 fox that I am currently swapping the suspension from and 86 4kq into. 

The 4kq hubs are 4x108 so when replacing the bearings I just reused the hubs from the fox. The bolts for the sway bar are different and a piece of metal had to be welded to the front sub frame in order to drill new mounting holes...all in all not too bad. The problem I ran into, and then found this thread, is that the cv axles now appear to be too short. Everything bolted together fine but after a few short runs in a parking lot, the driver cv pulled apart.

I removed the axle and measured from the top of the transmission hub to the front of the splines and it seemed to be in about the 24.5" range...I did this both at full droop and full compression. (I can get exact measurements later I do not have them in front of me).

I then put a new cv axle in and tightened the hub nut and th measured the distance between the back flange of the cv axle and the transmission flange, which was about 3/4 of an inch (with the cv axle in a "nuetral" position). Feeling this was a more accurate measurement I had two aluminum spacers machined to fit behind the cv axles. I am going to install them tonight and see how they do. 

Has anyone else completed this swap since Feb '11?


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

No update from me. Rebuilding a house. Car has been on hold. Still collecting parts though.

Greg W.


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## chumpboy (Sep 14, 2012)

Sounds good. Well, maybe this will help some people. I put the car together last night with the 3/4" spacers and it seems to work perfectly. I need to bleed the brakes and I am taking the car tomorrow for an alignment. The longer control arm/ball joint combo has thrown the camber way out and the toe is even farther out.


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## doppelfaust (Aug 15, 2007)

What is the opinion on these subframe bushings for a Fox:


I'm planning ABA bottom end swap and my stock subframe bushings are shot.


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## voxwagen88 (Dec 9, 2001)

No opinion on the metal subframe bushings.
I couldn't get 034 to say if they would fit a Fox.

If you are doing any thing with a rule book (Autocrossing) I fear they would bump you up a few classes.

I have some poly ones I'm going to try.


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

I think these would be overkill. I am running an S8 motor in my Audi Coupe, and I have not broken or worn out a OEM set yet, front or rear subframe. These are also not anodized, so if you live in an area that uses salt on the roads, they will eat these up.

my 2 cents.

Greg W.


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## doppelfaust (Aug 15, 2007)

I guess I will just get OEM replacements. Looks like VW still has them.

I'd love polys but it's not in the budget... wedding in March so I will be lucky if I can even fund my motor swap.


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

Good luck on the wedding. And you are right. No money for cars at all.  Let's see.

That couch does not match the drapes, blinds, carpet etc. Need new one.
That dining room table is worn looking, need another.
This bed sags.
Towels don't match the shower curtain.

I could go on and on, but I won't. 

Greg W.


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## doppelfaust (Aug 15, 2007)

Greg, would Audi 80/90/4000 front control arm bushings press into Fox control arms?


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

doppelfaust said:


> Greg, would Audi 80/90/4000 front control arm bushings press into Fox control arms?


I don't believe they will. I have not tried it, but the design is different.

Greg W.


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## QuantumSyncro (Apr 28, 2000)

voxwagen88 said:


> No opinion on the metal subframe bushings.
> I couldn't get 034 to say if they would fit a Fox.
> 
> If you are doing any thing with a rule book (Autocrossing) I fear they would bump you up a few classes.


If you dip them in liquid rubber before installing would anyone notice?


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## henrikwolfsburg (Nov 7, 2013)

Hey everyone!
I've got an Audi 80 B2 -86 (4000 for you guys in the state) and i want to slam it to the ground, almost  BUT, there are no coilover kits for it anywhere! I've searched the european ebays (mostly the german one) and can't find anything... Until I found these: 
http://www.ebay.de/itm/TA-TECHNIX-H...r:1989|Make:Audi|Model:80&hash=item53f518c590

It says Audi 80/90 B3 Typ 89. And after reading a bit of this thread it seems that they would actually fit the B2/4000, as the strut inserts are the almost the same on the 4000 and B3? Well, the springs may be a little to hard considering the B3 may be a little bit heavier 
What do you say? Could it work? I've got a good feeling about it anyways 

//Henrik


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## 90quattrocoupe (Feb 7, 2002)

henrikwolfsburg said:


> Hey everyone!
> I've got an Audi 80 B2 -86 (4000 for you guys in the state) and i want to slam it to the ground, almost  BUT, there are no coilover kits for it anywhere! I've searched the european ebays (mostly the german one) and can't find anything... Until I found these:
> http://www.ebay.de/itm/TA-TECHNIX-H...r:1989|Make:Audi|Model:80&hash=item53f518c590
> 
> ...


You will find a lot more info here:

motor


Greg W.


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