# UOA on 08' GTI factory fill at 1000 miles and 5000 miles



## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

I guess I forgot to post this. Small sample taken at 1000 miles (VW's break in period as stated in manual) and oil was not changed. Next sample taken at 5000 miles (VW's recommended OCI for factory fill via owners manual) and oil was changed. I wanted to see the difference in wear metals and viscosity to shed some light on the "changing factory fill early" debate. Take from it what you want but here is the data FYI.
Also just to let you know, I changed to redline 5W40 and noticed a huge difference in turbo lag/acceleration immediately. For any of you guys who think it is a placebo effect, it is not. The change was quite dramatic. Also I am aware redline is not VW approved so please save those flames, thanks. Will post both a virgin report and a UOA on the redline in a few months. I may change to redline's new OW40 at that time or stick with the 5W40.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: UOA on 08' GTI factory fill at 1000 miles and 5000 miles (saaber2)*

Forgot to mention that increase in magnesium is likely due to using german castrol (syntec 0W30 made in germany) as top up oil. Also FYI break in method was not the "easy" method and not lots of WOT but somewhere in between. I would describe it as moderate and extremely variable in terms of rpms, speed, and acceleration. Also used compression braking down hills during break in.


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## pturner67 (Dec 27, 2002)

*Re: UOA on 08' GTI factory fill at 1000 miles and 5000 miles (saaber2)*

not 100% sure how to read these things...but looks like redline all-around is a worse oil than the factory fill oil (looking at viscosity, flashpoint, etc rather than metals)


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: UOA on 08' GTI factory fill at 1000 miles and 5000 miles (pturner67)*

I think you misread the UOA. This is not a UOA of redline. It is the factory fill oil.


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## pturner67 (Dec 27, 2002)

*Re: UOA on 08' GTI factory fill at 1000 miles and 5000 miles (saaber2)*

aahh...ok...so factory oil tested at 1,000 and 5,000 miles....sorry bout that
now test the redline at 1,000 and 5,000 miles


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## MR2ToVW (Jan 1, 2009)

*Re: UOA on 08' GTI factory fill at 1000 miles and 5000 miles (saaber2)*

Thanks for the data Saaber. I'm have ~1100 miles in my TSI right now, still on factory fill. I'm tempted to dump it out soon in favor of German Castrol. My approximate plan is oil and filter changes at 1250, 5000, and every 5k after that. Any thoughts?


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: UOA on 08' GTI factory fill at 1000 miles and 5000 miles (MR2ToVW)*

Well lets compare 1100 mile vs 5000 miles on factory fill with moderate break in on this car.
Oil condition 
Viscosity - it did thin but not enough to really worry about as it appears this oil started as a 30 weight to begin with
TBN - at 3.7 probably less than 50% of starting TBN but still ok (tons of assumptions here such as assuming factory fill is Fuchs Titan, and I didn't run TAN so hard to find good condemnation point for factory fill based on only this data. Also many of the vw 502 oils VOAs I have seen have starting TBNs in the 8-11 range but I don't remember Fuchs starting TBN but I would guess it is at least 8
Flashpoint - 390 is still good vs the 405 at 1100 miles. I was expecting say 365 or lower due to expected fuel dilution.
insolubles - good
manganese - a residual of fuel dilution, did not change. I was very surprised by this as I thought fuel dilution would be higher.
Fuel - no measurable increase in fuel content using blackstone's method anyway (note that fuel could have been present in the oil in the past and burned off prior to sampling)
So based on the above, I don't see any drastic changes in any of those properties between 1100-5000 miles so it would be difficult to make an argument to change out the oil early based on oil condition (I am leaving out silicon content for now however)
silicon 
Normally we would expect silicon to increase due to dirt ingestion but with a new engine you have silicon in there from the start. According to blackstone it is from "sealers and san-casted parts". Silicon can be abrasive if it is "dirt" etc. but it is also an oil additive in some oils. I think it is antifoam but would have to check. Redline, for example, typically has 15-18 ppm silicon to start with. The amount of silicon stayed about the same but the fact that it is there early on is a reason one might consider changin out the oil early.
wear metals 
Wear metals at 5000 were much less than I expected. I expected there to be a much larger difference in wear metals between 1100 and 5000 miles. 
my opinion 
I researched the heck out of it and from what I have read there appeared to me more upside in leaving the oil in for the recommended 5000 miles vs. changing early. The above data didn't show enough change for me to question that conclusion but that is my opinion and someone else looking at the same data may want to change it early which is fine as I am not promoting any course of action, just offering my opinion. 
So to finally answer your question, if it were me I would leave it in there for the full 5000 miles initially as there are some real oil experts whose opinions I trust that say it really does need to be in there the recommended interval and I don't see enough evidence based on my UOAs for me to question that advice (I can't see how changing it at 2500 would do any harm though, it just may not do enough good).

****Edit: I am using the 5000 mile recommended first OCI form the FSI but I think the TSI calls for the first oil change at 10,000 right? I say that is too long and has more to do with marketing and economics and I would not go beyond 5000 personally.******

Then I would go every 5000 after that. If you are interested, you might consider running a UOA at your suggested 2500 mile mark to see what the oil looks like (pull a sample through the dipstick hole and leave the oil in) and base your decision of when to do the first oil change on that.
The german castrol has shown good results in this engine but check BITOG to see for yourself. You may also want to consider a higher HTHS oil in this car due to the fuel dilution issue and the HPFP cam follower wear issue. I would bet the german castrol at 5000 miles intervals will do great. Also many are promoting renewable lubricants biosyn oil as a good oil in this engine to combat fuel dilution. I am watching the UOA results etc. on BITOG before I decide to put biosyn in my car. 
Also in light of the recent posts regarding intake valve and fuel injector deposits due to pcv oil vapors, I think we need to really start taking oil cleaning ability into account as the oil vapors are the only thing available to do the cleaning on the intake valves assuming the owner is not dealing with the deposit problem some other way such as regularly cleaning with valve sauber/seafoam or eliminating the pcv return.


_Modified by saaber2 at 6:29 PM 1-2-2009_


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## MR2ToVW (Jan 1, 2009)

*Re: UOA on 08' GTI factory fill at 1000 miles and 5000 miles (saaber2)*

Thanks for taking the time to put together a thoughtful post. I agree with most of your assessment. 
My motive for an early oil change (~1250 miles) was to get the early-released silicon and iron out of the oil. By your sample, in 1100 miles, the motor released 21 ppm Fe and 20 ppm Si (assuming 0 on a VOA). That's quite a bit for that low of mileage. Silicon showed no increase at 5k, so it was all released in the first 1100 miles. Fe continued to rise as expected, but at a much lower rate (19ppm/1000 miles on the first sample vs. 4.6ppm/1000 miles on the second sample). The second sample's Fe wear rate is normal, whereas the first sample's rate is high.
I completely agree that everything else looks great and the oil will certainly hold up to 5000 miles just fine. 
Yes, the first factory authorized oil change on the TSI is at 10k. That's crazy. Don't worry, I won't be running 10k OCI's. I've read almost all threads on BITOG relating to FSI and its issues.
VW made some proactive design changes on the TSI to reduce fuel dilution of the oil. They also changed the fuel pump cam follower to a roller-style follower. Yeah! 
I'm still not convinced of any cause or solution on the intake valve deposit issue. Sure, it's probably coming from the oil. But the intake valves are open when fuel is injected and fuel does appear to mist the valves. VW changed the design of the TSI injectors/spray pattern to reduce intake valve wetting, fuel dilution of oil, and particulate formation. The finer fuel mist should burn more completely and reduce fuel washdown of the cylinders/combustion chamber. 
See Acobat page 46 (document page 42) of http://www.arinahnell.com/other/vw/tech/20tsi.pdf.
Only time will tell if any of these changes make a difference...


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: UOA on 08' GTI factory fill at 1000 miles and 5000 miles (MR2ToVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MR2ToVW* »_By your sample, in 1100 miles, the motor released 21 ppm Fe and 20 ppm Si (assuming 0 on a VOA). That's quite a bit for that low of mileage. Silicon showed no increase at 5k, so it was all released in the first 1100 miles. Fe continued to rise as expected, but at a much lower rate (19ppm/1000 miles on the first sample vs. 4.6ppm/1000 miles on the second sample). The second sample's Fe wear rate is normal, whereas the first sample's rate is high.

Thats very true. One thing I wish I had done is take a UOA as close to zero miles as possible. The reason is I got my car with 12 miles on the clock but the MFD showed something like 11 1/2 hours on it. Does that mean that it idled for around 11 hours between coming from factory, transportation, dealer, etc. or does that mean that some of those 11 hours are part of vw's pre-delivery break in procedure? I don't know the answer but either way my suspicion is that a lot of the iron and silicon may have freed up even that early. We need to talk a vw salesman into taking a UOA on a "virgin" car I guess ha ha to get that "zero mileage" reading.


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## MR2ToVW (Jan 1, 2009)

You just need to sneak on the VW dealer's lot with a vacuum pump and draw a small sample from the dipstick tube, lol.


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## MR2ToVW (Jan 1, 2009)

Well, I broke and changed the oil today with 1150 miles. I'll do it again at 5000 and every 5000 after that. Easy enough.


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## saaber2 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (MR2ToVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MR2ToVW* »_Well, I broke and changed the oil today with 1150 miles. I'll do it again at 5000 and every 5000 after that. Easy enough. 

Awesome, please post the UOA if you are doing one for this change. The 5000 mile OCI is wise IMO and I bet you'll see good results with the GC.
I'm currently thinking about addressing the PCV-derived intake deposits via a BSH catch can type system.
Also I am curious how much of the fuel pump cam follower wear occurs at startup vs. normal operating temp. A lighter oil may protect a bit better at startup but may be worse in the long run due to higher volatility and less ability to deal with fuel dilution. Depends on the specific oil of course, just a broad generalizeation about "thicker and thinner". GC really seems to have the best of both worlds as it starts as a thick 30 weight and stays there, not shearing as much as some other oils.


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## vanagonman (Apr 21, 2008)

in my 2008.5 gli service book (yes it has the new TSI motor) it says the first oil change is at 5000 and my mfc told me to change the oil at 5000 were are you guys getting 10000 from for the TSI motor


_Modified by vanagonman at 9:50 AM 1-7-2009_


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## bcze1 (Feb 6, 2007)

*Re: (vanagonman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vanagonman* »_in my 2008.5 gli service book (yes it has the new TSI motor) it says the first oil change is at 5000 and my mfc told me to change the oil at 5000 were are you guys getting 10000 from for the TSI motor


Though the newer motor was introduced in mid 2008 and varied a bit by model (Passats had the TSI first), the maintenance schedule did not officially change until MY 2009.


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## MR2ToVW (Jan 1, 2009)

*Re: (saaber2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saaber2* »_Awesome, please post the UOA if you are doing one for this change. The 5000 mile OCI is wise IMO and I bet you'll see good results with the GC.

I didn't do one for the 1150 mile factory fill, as I didn't think it would provide much more information than the one you did. I am hoping to do one at 5000 miles though. The results should be interesting. I'm anxious to see if any of the TSI changes will actually result in lower wear metals, fuel dilution, etc. My 5k UOA still won't provide anything definitive... but maybe by 15-20k miles.


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## willafb (Apr 22, 2008)

*Re: (MR2ToVW)*

where do you all find this german castrol? like what auto store?


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## MR2ToVW (Jan 1, 2009)

*Re: (willafb)*

Most of my local Autozone and Pepboys stock it lately. It's 0w-30 European Blend Castrol Syntec. Make sure it says Made in Germany on the back.


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