# Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block?



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*********
2009 UPDATE : IF YOU ARE A NEW COMER TO THIS THREAD AND HAVE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT MATING ANY 20V 1.8T CYLINDER HEAD ONTO A 1.9TDI ALH/BRE SHORT BLOCK YOU HAVE 2 OPTIONS:
1. Purchase our custom 20V head studs
2. Helicoil the block with an M12 to M10 insert and use off the shelf ARP M10 offerings for the 20V head.
Both of these are available through INA Engineering so please click the email in my signature!!
THANKS!
**********

Hey guys,seems I have run myself into a jam and would like some advice as to what would be the best way of mating a 20V head onto a TDi block.I made that jump from the ABA 20V because I no longer needed an Intermediate shaft and to mount the ABA into an A4 would require custom engine mount brackets along with other bs which didnt look too appealing to me.The A4 engine mount brackets bolt fine to the TDi block but it appears I have run myself into a couple of issues.
** 1.* The ALH TDi Block uses a 12mm x 115mm head bolt where as the AWP (same generation block) uses a 10mm.I have emailed raceware in the hopes that they could custom make a set for me so I am keeping my fingers crossed pertaining to that aspect of this project.
** 2.* If you look @ the mage below of the 20V head you will notice that it has only 2 oil return ports on the intake manifold side where as on the TDi block they are 3.I am a bit skeptical to weld a cast iron block internally so below is a poll which I have set up to help me decide which would be more economical to go through with.
Now I am willing to exhaust all options in order to use the TDi block as it is a 236mm block and is just a much cleaner unit to work with.
*AEB 20V Head:*








*1.9 TDi Block on Raceware Headstuds (courtesy of homegrownmotorsports)*



















_Modified by Issam Abed at 9:40 PM 8-29-2009_


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## EvilVento2.oT (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Wizard-of-OD)*

as for the aeb head , if you have another "junk head " see if you can drill out the holes in the head ( not realy sure of the tolerances and opening in there , but it seems you could drill and tap , as for the oil galley , block off the one that does not fit and you should be fine


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## BUNNYLOVE (Jul 28, 2000)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Wizard-of-OD)*

You could just tap it and plug with a pipe thread plug. That way you don't have to weld or deck the block.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Wizard-of-OD)*

- Yea, Pipe Tap and Pipe plug with some soft teflon sealant for the Block's oil Hole.
- As for the Head Studs. You mentioned AEB then you mentioned AWP. Which one are you using? Becuase iirc, the AEB uses 11mm Head bolts where the rest of the 20v's use the 10mm.
I am not sure there is enough meat or room to go messing with the head to accommotate larger Studs/Nuts. The AEB is very tight in this regard.
Ideally, a custom set of studs than neck down to accommodate the head would be the best option.
Shawn


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

_Quote, originally posted by *EvilVento2.oT* »_as for the aeb head , if you have another "junk head " see if you can drill out the holes in the head

Will give this a shot http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *EvilVento2.oT* »_
but it seems you could drill and tap , as for the oil galley , block off the one that does not fit and you should be fine

This is what I considered for the oil galley on the left side as there is no oil return at that point on the 20V head,however I am stumped as to what to do for the middle and the oil galley on the right.Anyone have a TDi and 20V head gasket they could compare before I have to go burn more $$?

_Quote, originally posted by *sdezego* »_As for the Head Studs. You mentioned AEB then you mentioned AWP. Which one are you using? Becuase iirc, the AEB uses 11mm Head bolts where the rest of the 20v's use the 10mm.

Using the AEB head (same as AWP ,just big port) but using the TDi block which is the same "family" as the AWP block.

_Quote, originally posted by *sdezego* »_Ideally, a custom set of studs than neck down to accommodate the head would be the best option.

The spacing in the 20V head is so limited.When I searched I read of a guy who tried using 16V ARP studs on the 20V head and managed to get them to work,not sure how true it but when I contacted ARP and got nothing.Raceware was recommended since they sell both the Diesel & 20V head stud kits so maybe they could graft 2 into 1.


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Wizard-of-OD)*

I would check to see what the OD thread on the various types of thread repair inserts is. Perhaps the OD of a 10mm insert is 12mm and you could simply screw them in.
Helicoil and timesert are 2, I'm sure there are others


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_I would check to see what the OD thread on the various types of thread repair inserts is. Perhaps the OD of a 10mm insert is 12mm and you could simply screw them in.
Helicoil and timesert are 2, I'm sure there are others

I almost mentionend Helicoils but didn't. Not becuase they aren't strong enough, but mainly becuase it will likely be hard finding some with the thread length necessary. Two coils in one hole might cause some problems with binding and such and I wouln't do it. If you can find long enough ones, I would consider this a Viable option.

Shawn


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## CrazyMonkey (Oct 1, 2002)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (sdezego)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sdezego* »_I almost mentionend Helicoils but didn't. Not becuase they aren't strong enough, but mainly becuase it will likely be hard finding some with the thread length necessary. Two coils in one hole might cause some problems with binding and such and I wouln't do it. If you can find long enough ones, I would consider this a Viable option.


I almost suggested the same thing. Perhaps a thought would be to drill out and weld the head bolt holes in the block solid, then drill and tap that. Maybe. Custom head bolts are probably a little easier though.


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (CrazyMonkey)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CrazyMonkey* »_
I almost suggested the same thing. Perhaps a thought would be to drill out and weld the head bolt holes in the block solid, then drill and tap that. Maybe. Custom head bolts are probably a little easier though.









I definitley wouldn;t drill, weld or tap the block. I'd only do the helicoils if the OD thread was 12x1.5 and you could just screw them into the existing holes.
As for depth- they list various lengths on their site up to 3 diameters, so I think that would be okay


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
** 1.* The ALH TDi Block uses a 12mm x 115mm head bolt where as the AWP (same generation block) uses a 10mm.I have emailed raceware in the hopes that they could custom make a set for me so I am keeping my fingers crossed pertaining to that aspect of this project.

I almost flew out my chair when I read this....

_Quote, originally posted by *Raceware* »_
Thank you for your RACEWARE inquiry.While we do offer custom made aerospace quality engine fasteners, one-off sets are very expensive. Design and engineering costs start at about $2,000USD and go up depending on the complexity of the design. Our hourly consulting rate is $300/hour with a minimum of (4) hours time. All new stud designs require custom made tooling to grind all three diameters of the stud to their final size after heat-treat. The tooling cost is an additional $1000 per stud design. This is a one-time charge and the tooling remains with us.As you can see the cost to supply the (1) set of custom designed studs would easily be in excess of *$3500 USD plus shipping*. Normal delivery time is 10-14 weeks from receipt of your full advance payment, which is required prior to the beginning of production.Once we receive your purchase order,no order cancellation, design changes, refund or exchange is possible. The studs would have our normal 190,000 PSI tensile strength guarantee and be similar to our typical RACEWARE stud design but produced to drawings that you must approve prior to production.


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_Perhaps the OD of a 10mm insert is 12mm and you could simply screw them in.

Even on raceware's site they list the TDi as a 12mm bolt and the 1.8T as a 10mm bolt.I asked some questions over on a TDi board but they were clueless when it came to gas engines.The only way to confirm any of this was if there was a member on the board who had both a 20V and a TDi block kicking around.


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## Trevahhhh (Jun 5, 2002)

well i dunno if this will help or not ... i dont see why you couldnt just use the TDI headstuf unless if physically wouldnt fit through the holes on the AEB head
unless of course the length is too short( it doesnt stick up through the head enough for the nut to grab )
i just measured a old aeb headbolt i have laying around and from the bottum of the head to the bottum of the threads is roughly 4 and 3/4 inches .
so if you screwed the studs in all the way .. bakced them out a 1/4 turn (how i was taught to install them) and you have roughly 5 inches sticking out of the block .. i would say you are good
just my thoughts
Trever


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## thetwodubheads (Dec 6, 2004)

*Re: (Trevahhhh)*

I really don't think the tolerance in the casting is so small you couldn't have the head holes taken out 1mm. Really that is only removing .5mm of material. You may even be able to get away from that whole problem if you had a desel stud, heck even just a stock diesel bolt and measured it. You may find it is only ~10.5mm and would fit in the hole with just some minor filing.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (thetwodubheads)*


_Quote, originally posted by *thetwodubheads* »_You may even be able to get away from that whole problem if you had a desel stud, heck even just a stock diesel bolt and measured it. You may find it is only ~10.5mm and would fit in the hole with just some minor filing.

I have been getting some help from Malone and Jettatech pertaining to the TDi block.Hopefully we can come up with a solution...
I have a scrap head here that I am going to bore out to increase it from 11mm to 12mm (AEB comes with 11mm bolts) then search for replacements from McMaster or something.Anyone want to send me a junk TDi head bolt?


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## transient_analysis (Jan 28, 2003)

any luck??
the tdi block seems like a good option as it has a water source (or is it a sink??) on the block... and also has an oil return on the oil pan..
I'd still vote for drilling out the old head


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## EdsGTI (Mar 9, 2003)

i was searching for this block for a while...I was not sure what to do with that front oil galley in the block either, i was contenplating welding/decking the block...
I worked at a shop where a car had a blown timing belt. The aeb head bolts for some reason didnt even want to fit down a spare aeb head?? it was odd, so the boss threw the head on the drill press and opened up the holes to get it done. 
It was a mostly stock car, it held up for as long as i stuck around, but i dont really know if it would work on a high boost/big power motor....i dont know if i would do it.


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## CrazyMonkey (Oct 1, 2002)

*Re: (transient_analysis)*


_Quote, originally posted by *transient_analysis* »_
I'd still vote for drilling out the old head









I thought about this some yesterday too. If you enlarge the holes in the head to _just_ accept the 12mm bolt, you are actually spreading out the clamping load from the bolt head over a larger area (granted not by much), so I don't see how you would run into issues by doing that unless there simply isn't room (water jackets and whatnot)... which I doubt. What about putting 12mm studs in the block? At least your torque specs will be more accurate that way, and with a 12mm nut, you may spread the clamping load out further than the 12mm bolt head if it fits.


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: (CrazyMonkey)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CrazyMonkey* »_
I thought about this some yesterday too. If you enlarge the holes in the head to _just_ accept the 12mm bolt, you are actually spreading out the clamping load from the bolt head over a larger area (granted not by much), so I don't see how you would run into issues by doing that unless there simply isn't room (water jackets and whatnot)... which I doubt. What about putting 12mm studs in the block? At least your torque specs will be more accurate that way, and with a 12mm nut, you may spread the clamping load out further than the 12mm bolt head if it fits.

The issue is the area the bolt head bears on- it is very small -essesially the OD of the bolt head . So there is no way a stude will work unless it comes with the special cylindrical nuts like the racewares. My concern with the stock 12mm bolts is the OD of the head- I don't know, but suspect it is larger than those of the 10/11mm bolts. If so, you would have to bore out the well in which it sits with a mill..which would be a huge pain, and there may not be room. 
You could turn down the OD of a stock bolt head, but that reduces the bearing surface significantly.


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## CrazyMonkey (Oct 1, 2002)

*Re: (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_The issue is the area the bolt head bears on- it is very small -essesially the OD of the bolt head . So there is no way a stude will work unless it comes with the special cylindrical nuts like the racewares. My concern with the stock 12mm bolts is the OD of the head- I don't know, but suspect it is larger than those of the 10/11mm bolts. If so, you would have to bore out the well in which it sits with a mill..which would be a huge pain, and there may not be room. 
You could turn down the OD of a stock bolt head, but that reduces the bearing surface significantly.

I haven't had the valve cover off our AEB, so I'm not entirely sure how the bolts sit in there. I figured if it was anything like the 16V head attachment, then it wouldn't be a big deal at all for the larger head on the 12mm bolt to fit in, and you can get studs and regular nuts to work with a 16V head from what I've seen, so I thought it would be worth a shot. Even if you did have to bore out the area where the bolt head sits a little, it's not going to be much and any decent machinist should be able to take care of it. Hell, I had to helicoil one of the cam bearing cap studs on my 16V and I was able to git 'r dun with a hand drill.


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## Passenger Performance (Nov 11, 2005)

The tdi is 12mm the regular 1.6 and 1.9 TD headstuds are the same as the TDI ones. You can also use headstuds from arp originally from the ford cosworth 4 cyl engines.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Passenger Performance)*

Another option that Rodney Huss pointed out to me are these:

Just a bit worried about using these in a high boost motor.

_Quote, originally posted by *Passenger Performance* »_You can also use headstuds from arp originally from the ford cosworth 4 cyl engines.

Dave do you have a 16V or 20V head knocking around that you can put on one of the TDi blocks?How about an old TDi headgasket?


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## VeeeDubb (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

I have to ask.........why is it you want to use a TDI block ???? other than the engine mount bracket fitting, and it being .1cc larger than the 1.8.


_Modified by VeeeDubb at 3:15 PM 3-17-2006_


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## EdsGTI (Mar 9, 2003)

*Re: (VeeeDubb)*

Because the alh is basically the perfect block to use when wanting to increase rod length while keeping many mk4 motor characteristics
People used to use the ABA for 20v swaps, this ALH tdi motor has an internal waterpump (which the ABA does not) it has all the oil drain plugs (the ABA does not) and its chain driven oil pump along with a few other small things that makes it worth while. Since it is a tall block and utilizes 159mm rods instead of all the other mk4 blocks with 144mm you can run say a eurospec 100mm crank with an 83mm piston and have a 2.2L 20v motor that can do 8500rpm with a solid lifter head. I think that’s pretty awesome.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (VeeeDubb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VeeeDubb* »_why is it you want to use a TDI block

Ability to use 159mm rods and not have a crappy rod ratio.


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## VeeeDubb (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: (EdsGTI20VT)*

Has this been done before or is this the first time ??? 

I was under the impression the european ALH and an NA ALH have the same crank???
Sounds like a neat project http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (VeeeDubb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VeeeDubb* »_Has this been done before or is this the first time

Most of the junk I do has not been done before









_Quote, originally posted by *EdsGTI20VT* »_
* this ALH tdi motor has an internal waterpump (which the ABA does not) 
* it has all the oil drain plugs (the ABA does not) and its chain driven oil pump along with a few other small things that makes it worth while. * Since it is a tall block and utilizes 159mm rods instead of all the other mk4 blocks with 144mm you can run say a eurospec 100mm crank

Yup thats pretty much sums it up http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Anybody had any luck with comparing anything?


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## transient_analysis (Jan 28, 2003)

Any good updates??


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_Most of the junk I do has not been done before









This has been done before. Long blocks can be bought set up like this, just a little on the pricey side of things.


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## puebla (Sep 9, 2003)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

Wow.....


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## EdsGTI (Mar 9, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

how does eurospec do it? http://eurospecsport.com/2220V.htm
you should call them and ask what the use.


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## EdsGTI (Mar 9, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

just say your interested in buying the built bottom end, but you know that its an m12 stud, how am i going to mount it to a 1.8t thats designed for an m10, they might have studs.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Yes, Eurospec has had them available for some time now. Even with their 100mm crank in there it's not a true 2.2L engine, it is rounded up a decent amount. I think Ed's idea about showing interest in the short block to get answers will get you your information.



_Modified by billyVR6 at 10:48 AM 4-5-2006_


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## EdsGTI (Mar 9, 2003)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

even with 83mm pistons is a 2163cc..
83.5 is 2189cc
84 is 2216cc


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (EdsGTI20VT)*

yes, the engine they sell has an 83mm bore.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (EdsGTI20VT)*

Heard from Eurospec today.If these are indeed 12mm bolts that will work with the AEB head then I will grab a set from them.

_Quote, originally posted by *Eurospec* »_Issam,
When we build our 2.2ltr 20vt long block we use our Eurospec Sport Turbo
Head bolt part number: *06A 198 385R*
Thanks,
Eurospec Sport


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## EdsGTI (Mar 9, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

according to eurospecs catalog they are 11mmx1.5 under that part number..


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (EdsGTI20VT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EdsGTI20VT* »_according to eurospecs catalog they are 11mmx1.5 under that part number..

Ye I just cross referenced the part # they gave me.So they are using a 11mm bolt in a 12mm tapped thread?


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## EdsGTI (Mar 9, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

thats odd...not to question your experience, but are you 100% sure its 12mm, seems awefully silly for them to do that in all reality, but it is vw were talking about so i guess....


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (EdsGTI20VT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EdsGTI20VT* »_but are you 100% sure its 12mm

110% sure.This was confirmed by Malone and others who live for Diesels.Also checked with Autotech parts and the TDi is listed as a 12x115mm bolt.
Got this from Eurospec today:

_Quote, originally posted by *Issam* »_How do you overcome the face that a stock AEB
uses a 11mm head bolt,AWP uses a 10mm and a ALH TDi uses a 12mm unit?If I buy the eurospec head bolt kit will I have to bore the head to accept a 12mm wide stud?


_Quote, originally posted by *Eurospec* »_We helicoil they head.









I guess that must have been a typo.


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## EdsGTI (Mar 9, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

guess helicoils are strong enough...


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (EdsGTI20VT)*

You would think so, here is a response from a while back from my e-mail archive:

_Quote, originally posted by *Eurospec Sport* »_We are not a tuner, just a supplier of high quality parts. With that being said we have sold many of the 2.2ltr long and short blocks around the world with no complaints.

To this day I am yet to find one individual or race team out there using that engine. Aside from a guy selling a new one on ebay everything to date is just recycled information and specs from Eurospec's website on various vendor websites.
I started looking into the Eurospec engine because it looks as if they have the tensioner and belt details all worked out.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_I started looking into the Eurospec engine because it looks as if they have the tensioner and belt details all worked out.

Thats not really an issue.Smokinjoe644 can get any Curvilinear II belt from 153T all the way to 162T so we are all covered in that department.
What I am worried about is the use of Helicoils and unfortunately none of the TDi guys are chiming in with old head gaskets or head bolts.


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## EdsGTI (Mar 9, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

i hear you on not findign anyone who uses their stuff...but i posted this a while ago in a thread, i didnt even think there were many bt 1.8L around until i found 2 eurospec 100mm cranks at the machine shop i used to use. Each crank was from a totally different person so go figure...There is tons of shi.t around.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_Thats not really an issue. Smokinjoe644 can get any Curvilinear II belt...

I realize that, it pretty recent information though...

_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_...are chiming in with old head gaskets or head bolts.

I have been collecting ALH spare parts for a while now, I have a box or two of loose parts (oil pumps, chains, etc., etc.), if I get the time this weekend I will go up in the loft and see if there are any random head bolts.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (EdsGTI20VT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EdsGTI20VT* »_... i found 2 eurospec 100mm cranks at the machine shop i used to use.

I would love to give that crank a go, but I can't afford to purchase one let alone mess one up. The factory 95.5mm will do fine, at least those show up used for much much less. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## EdsGTI (Mar 9, 2003)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

yes, but ive found them hard to come by...


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (billyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *billyVR6* »_The factory 95.5mm will do fine, at least those show up used for much much less. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I was actually looking @ one last year but couldnt justify the $1500US price tag.


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## puebla (Sep 9, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
$1500US price tag.

Thats alot of cheese.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (hazw8st)*

Ok found out something interesting today from some guys in norway.Now I dont know how this will work for the 20V head but for an Inline-5 20V head on a Eurovan block you use *BMW 3.5L* head studs which are 12mm.Has anyone here been able to use Inline-4 16V (9A) ARP studs with an AEB head?


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## puebla (Sep 9, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Genious.....


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## PITGUY (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_Has anyone here been able to use Inline-4 16V (9A) ARP studs with an AEB head?


no room between the lifters to open up for that style of nut


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## puebla (Sep 9, 2003)

*Re: (PITGUY)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## transient_analysis (Jan 28, 2003)

Any good updates?


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (transient_analysis)*

Very interesting project. It would be nice to see someone do this with a big bore, long rods, short stroke, solid lifters, a real nice P&P and rev it to 9 or 10K


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (transient_analysis)*


_Quote, originally posted by *transient_analysis* »_Any good updates?

Sourcing the inserts from Rodney Huss (rhussjr) who has offered to help out.The stock AEG head gasket should be sufficient enough to block the oil return ports in the block as the oil pressure ports are all the same.


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## transient_analysis (Jan 28, 2003)

Good to know..
I'm keeping an eye on this more now that SCAT rods are on a GB in the 1.8t forum


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## PITGUY (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
What I am worried about is the use of Helicoils and unfortunately none of the TDi guys are chiming in with old head gaskets or head bolts.

i have the head blots of a ALH i just took apart


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## PITGUY (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


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## golf2 1.8t (Aug 27, 2005)

*Re: (PITGUY)*

Am I right: you would bore the TDI block from 79,5mm up to 82 or 83mm?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (golf2 1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *golf2 1.8t* »_Am I right: you would bore the TDI block from 79,5mm up to 82 or *83mm*?

To 83mm JE Pistons from Rodney Huss.


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## golf2 1.8t (Aug 27, 2005)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Damn man! There will be not much left from the block....


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## 801pete (Apr 20, 2006)

still plenty- TDI bores are no closer togheter then any other volks 4... 
people have been boring 83mm for ages. 
What i'm wondering though is how far up the piston the wrist pin is with a stock length rod and all that stroke difference made up in the wrist pin... 
Especially 100mm stroke setups, i just can't see how it would work without at least somewhat shorter rods.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (801pete)*


_Quote, originally posted by *801pete* »_
What i'm wondering though is how far up the piston the wrist pin is with a stock length rod and all that stroke difference made up in the wrist pin... 
Especially 100mm stroke setups, i just can't see how it would work without at least somewhat shorter rods. 

Well the Compression Height for a stock TDi set up should be 29.25mm but with a 100mm Crank its 27mm.Ive seen Suzuki pistons with a Compression Height of 19mm


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## golf2 1.8t (Aug 27, 2005)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

How big is the TDI block in comparison to the the 1.8T block? I mean the width as such. The TDi has 79,5 pistons, the 1.8T 81. So is the TDI block 6mm smaller or is it thicker between the pistons?


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## PITGUY (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: (golf2 1.8t)*

it's 16mm taller then the 1.8t same with


----------



## PITGUY (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


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## PITGUY (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Wizard-of-OD)*

some ALH pics


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (PITGUY)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PITGUY* »_some ALH pics 


That oil return in the block is a definite plus so I dont have to cut into the dry sump pan.


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## transient_analysis (Jan 28, 2003)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_That oil return in the block is a definite plus so I dont have to cut into the dry sump pan.









dry sump is the ish.. but are you sure that's an oil return.. and not a water return?
I should probably stop asking stupid questions and just look at a bently :/
Any luck with the stud holes and the AEB head Wiz??


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## PITGUY (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (transient_analysis)*


_Quote, originally posted by *transient_analysis* »_
dry sump is the ish.. but are you sure that's an oil return.. and not a water return?
Any luck with the stud holes and the AEB head Wiz??

it is a oil return if you guy's want i'll take another pic
the head bolt holes shouldnt be an issue i am just lazy to take the block to the machine shop


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (PITGUY)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PITGUY* »_the head bolt holes shouldnt be an issue i am just lazy to take the block to the machine shop









Your going to use inserts Ricky?


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## PITGUY (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Wizard-of-OD)*

helicoils


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## golf2 1.8t (Aug 27, 2005)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (PITGUY)*

Which rods does the 1.9TDI have? 159mm?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (golf2 1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *golf2 1.8t* »_Which rods does the 1.9TDI have? 159mm?

Yes and they are pretty beffy but I have a set of SCAT's collecting dust so I plan to use them.


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## PITGUY (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Yes and they are pretty beffy but I have a set of SCAT's collecting dust so I plan to use them.

i would say 144 mm rods


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## golf2 1.8t (Aug 27, 2005)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (PITGUY)*

144? Really? This won´t be very good with a 100mm crank. 100mm stroke with a 144 rod? I won´t see the angle of the rods.....


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## PITGUY (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (golf2 1.8t)*

yes 144mm the rods in the pic are AEB AEG and ALH 
edit










_Modified by PITGUY at 10:51 PM 7-5-2006_


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (PITGUY)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PITGUY* »_i would say 144 mm rods

Got any pics of the Pistons side by side?


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## PITGUY (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Wizard-of-OD)*

i can only get a pic of the AEG and ALH side by side no AEB pistons at the moment


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (PITGUY)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PITGUY* »_i can only get a pic of the AEG and ALH side by side no AEB pistons at the moment

Previous generation TDI had 159mm connecting rods.I ASSuMEd the ALH would follow the same route.
So the TDi piston has a Compression Height of 44.25mm?Got a ruler handy Ricky?


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## PITGUY (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: (billyVR6)*

Click on the pic


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## PITGUY (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: (PITGUY)*

ABA ALH rods


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## golf2 1.8t (Aug 27, 2005)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (PITGUY)*

144mm sucks...... Is there a TDI block that hast the internal water pump and 159 rods?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (golf2 1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *golf2 1.8t* »_144mm sucks......

Why would that suck?We dont care about the rods anyway,the block is 236mm and thats all that matters.Pick a crankshaft,get some forged 159's and buy a Piston to suite.


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## golf2 1.8t (Aug 27, 2005)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Wizard-of-OD)*

Pick a crankshaft,get some forged 159's and buy a Piston to suite.
Piston to suite- yes. But why does ist suck?
Using a 100 crank with 159 rods, because of 144 serial rods. If the rods are 159 serial you could use some 170 rods for example.....


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## NORSK (Feb 26, 2006)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (golf2 1.8t)*

The TDI main bearing section is much stronger than other block's
And are very suitable for high boost motors
Very common to use the TDI with 16v head here in europe
I have not seen a 20v head been used though


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (NORSK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NORSK* »_The TDI main bearing section is much stronger than other block's
And are very suitable for high boost motors

A definite plus for what I want to do.

_Quote, originally posted by *NORSK* »_
Very common to use the TDI with 16v head here in europe
I have not seen a 20v head been used though

Thats with the previous generation TDi found in the MK-3 Jetta's.That TDi block was almost identical to the ABA/ABK from the outside.


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## EdsGTI (Mar 9, 2003)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Wizard-of-OD)*

jrc sells pistons for the aba 20v. The ALH is the same deck height as the ABA, i dont see why you couldnt jsut run those, the only real difference is the block, that piston and rod should work, i doubt it would need anything more then cylinderwall clearancing for the rods (which it most likely wont need im sure..)


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## PITGUY (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (EdsGTI20VT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EdsGTI20VT* »_jrc sells pistons for the aba 20v. The ALH is the same deck height as the ABA, i dont see why you couldnt jsut run those, the only real difference is the block, that piston and rod should work, i doubt it would need anything more then cylinderwall clearancing for the rods (which it most likely wont need im sure..)

you can only use those pistons with a 92.8mm stroke not with the 95.5 mm


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## NORSK (Feb 26, 2006)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
A definite plus for what I want to do.
Thats with the previous generation TDi found in the MK-3 Jetta's.That TDi block was almost identical to the ABA/ABK from the outside.

Yes,the most common block to use is the AHU,AFN old type TDI
But ALH with internal water pump and crank driven oil pump is also used with 16v head.
Even AJM pumpe duse block has been used.
159mm rods with forged ABF low compression pistons is used,the ABF has 21mm pin
That type of rods is with the 92.8mm crank ofcourse.
I think Wössner in Germany has these pistons for the 16v
For the 20v i have no idea
The oil filter holder must normally be modded,depending of which intake manifold being used
But if you want to use dry sump that won't be an issue
Any luck with the head studs yet?


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## NORSK (Feb 26, 2006)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (NORSK)*

The water pump from the Audi 2.0FSI should be used.
It has a bigger cog wheel than the ALH.
The ALH pump will spin too fast and possibly cause cavitation(air pockets) in the cooling system
That can cause big problems,especcially on thin cylinderwalls
On high boost motors,small boiling spots can occur and make the cylinder wall collapse inwards


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## talx (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (NORSK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NORSK* »_The water pump from the Audi 2.0FSI should be used.
It has a bigger cog wheel than the ALH.
The ALH pump will spin too fast and possibly cause cavitation(air pockets) in the cooling system
That can cause big problems,especcially on thin cylinderwalls
On high boost motors,small boiling spots can occur and make the cylinder wall collapse inwards


That’s interesting 
But why shouldn’t the original 20v water pomp be ok?


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## polov8 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (talx)*


_Quote, originally posted by *talx* »_That’s interesting 
But why shouldn’t the original 20v water pomp be ok?

I think he's refering to the Diesel pump, which in order to run at useable speeds on a slow revving diesel engine, has to have a smaller pulley. If it was run on a Gasoline engine, the greater rpm it would experience would cause cavitation and insufficient cooling.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (polov8)*


_Quote, originally posted by *polov8* »_I think he's refering to the Diesel pump, which in order to run at useable speeds on a slow revving diesel engine, has to have a smaller pulley. If it was run on a Gasoline engine, the greater rpm it would experience would cause cavitation and insufficient cooling.









some guys over in the 1.8T forum use the Diesel pump because it has a metal impeller.Maybe its another pump that has the metal impeller?


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## EdsGTI (Mar 9, 2003)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (PITGUY)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PITGUY* »_you can only use those pistons with a 92.8mm stroke not with the 95.5 mm

whoopsy, brain fart. too much brake cleaner.


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## polov8 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_








some guys over in the 1.8T forum use the Diesel pump because it has a metal impeller.Maybe its another pump that has the metal impeller?

It's the none genuine pump that has a steel impellor. the deisel might have it too, but it'll have a smaller pulley so it runs at the same speed on a slow revving engine


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## golf2 1.8t (Aug 27, 2005)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (polov8)*

What´s the difference between the 2.0 FSI and the 1.8T water pump?


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## RASALIBRE (Jul 9, 2004)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (golf2 1.8t)*

So what ever happened with this engine build?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (RASALIBRE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RASALIBRE* »_So what ever happened with this engine build?

Went with the ABA block.To get just the block to the point where I wanted was $800US+


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## [email protected] (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Wizard-of-OD)*

Shame, if you do descide to do it use helicoils but make sure they are at least 22.5mm long for the 12mm bolts.


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## PITGUY (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? ([email protected])*

bump


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Shame, if you do descide to do it use helicoils but make sure they are at least 22.5mm long for the 12mm bolts.

The choice to go ABA was due to:
*1.* Purchase of a 99mm forged crank which had the old style crank snout.It wouldnt work in an ALH block
*2.* Cost to Bore.79.5mm ---> 83mm cost more than 82.5mm---> 83mm
*3.* Cost to insert a 12mm/14mm ---10mm helicoil into the TDi block.
There was also the possibility of the threads in the helicoil ripping out.Maybe in the future I will attempt this but for right now the ABA block is the most economical choice (for me).


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## PITGUY (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Wizard-of-OD)*

the only thing thats stoping me right now is the oil filter flange 
i was at the machine shop today bs with the owner and he showed me the new inserts he is going to use on the B series block's so if i do one of the ALH block's i have he is the person that i am going to


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (PITGUY)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PITGUY* »_the only thing thats stoping me right now is the oil filter flange

Make a plate and run AN lines to a remote oil filter.Even though the filter housing has a pressure valve,eliminating it is not going to cause a problem since the oil pump allready has one.


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## PITGUY (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Wizard-of-OD)*

is there a Eurospec dealer in here that could tell us if that flange to the right of the block is available separate and how much ?


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## mirror (Dec 18, 2006)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (PITGUY)*

these are the 2 reasons i chose not to run the alh block. a true bt, running 35+psi, and helecoils made me sick thinking of my head hitting the hood. i would have ran the oem alh crank, so i would have only been picking up an extra .2L over what i chose. oh, 1 last thing, having the fabricator fabbing everything off an awp, the height of the alh would have thrown eveyrthing off 9mm, and with a 3.5" dp...it would have to be RE-fabbed.

_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
There was also the possibility of the threads in the helicoil ripping out.


_Quote, originally posted by *PITGUY* »_the only thing thats stoping me right now is the oil filter flange 




_Modified by mirror at 5:41 AM 2-18-2007_


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## PITGUY (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mirror* »_these are the 2 reasons i chose not to run the alh block. a true bt, running 35+psi, and helecoils made me sick thinking of my head hitting the hood.


i know a few hondas that run Helicoils and inserts with great success so that is not going to stop me 
also the increase is .3L not .2l


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## PITGUY (Nov 16, 2003)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (PITGUY)*

apparently Eurospec wont sell that flange adapter by itself


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Wizard-of-OD)*

*Update:* 
I have 2 SETS of the Correct ARP heads studs that allow you to use a 1.8T 20V head onto an ALH TDI block.
5 Sets were made and 3 are spoken for...
Price is $579US...this price is firm
Thanks


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (INA)*


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## vagrant_mugen (Jun 13, 2006)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (INA)*



INA
Price is $579US...this price is firm
Thanks[/QUOTE said:


> god damn. $600 for custom ARP's huh? thats a hit and a half.


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (vagrant_mugen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vagrant_mugen* »_
god damn. $600 for custom ARP's huh? thats a hit and a half.









When you make only 5 kits it gets very expensive








Making 100 on the other hand brings the cost down significantly.


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## JWJET1 (May 1, 2002)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (INA)*

... why is everyone afraid to have the headbolt holes machined?


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## OverSquare (Mar 26, 2007)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (J-86)*

as an aside here, and somone joining the conversation late, this is going to 
sound caveman. if anyone has a junk aeb head, can they take it to a drill press, for future reference sake, and try drilling and over drilling the well/shaft size of the aeb head bolt locations, make note of each size,until it cuts into somthing important? then i suppose we could resume with the wall thicknesses via measurement and the overall strength of the metal casting (by content, and manufacturing technique,vs.potential heat and stress at each bolt) to get a better idea of the geography of the part itself, without sending this poor guy's wallet and time through the hood.








feel free to correct me if i sound like a jackbag. i am also very tired, and i havent had a beer. 


_Modified by OverSquare at 6:44 PM 5-13-2008_


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (OverSquare)*

any update


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (OverSquare)*

Wow back from the dead...

_Quote, originally posted by *OverSquare* »_as an aside here, and somone joining the conversation late, this is going to 
sound caveman. if anyone has a junk aeb head, can they take it to a drill press, for future reference sake, and try drilling and over drilling the well/shaft size of the aeb head bolt locations, make note of each size,until it cuts into somthing important? then i suppose we could resume with the wall thicknesses via measurement and the overall strength of the metal casting (by content, and manufacturing technique,vs.potential heat and stress at each bolt) to get a better idea of the geography of the part itself, without sending this poor guy's wallet and time through the hood.









The problem is not the cylinder head,it is the block.
A solution has been found and a couple of us are well on our way to building an ALH 20V.To those who missed out...better luck next time.


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## Nastyboost (Feb 18, 2007)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Issam Abed)*

Did this ever run? SOO much time looks like it was spent but no finish?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Nastyboost)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Nastyboost* »_Did this ever run? SOO much time looks like it was spent but no finish?

2 motors were built and out the door.
Recommendations : Timecert the block for an M10 ARP bolt
The deck block off plates and the oil filter housing adapter are available from us.Simply send me a PM on the INA account for further information.


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## Nastyboost (Feb 18, 2007)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Issam Abed)*

Nice. I may end up doing this if i don't lose the mk2 itch.


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## VOLKS-MAN (Oct 7, 2000)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (transient_analysis)*

watching!


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Nastyboost)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Nastyboost* »_Nice. I may end up doing this if i don't lose the mk2 itch.

Put a 2.5 MKV Rabbit motor in there if it is going into a MKII.
2.5L > 2.2L and you will have a better flowing head right off the bat not to mention the 2.2L crankshaft cost alone is enough to purchase the 2.5 motor AND decent manifolds.


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## Nastyboost (Feb 18, 2007)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Issam Abed)*

But the rarity of the alh/20v is worth it alone. Its like saying you have a Porsche 959. Few know what it is, and even fewer having ever seen one in person.


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## fatjohnperformance (Oct 31, 2009)

*Re: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block? (Nastyboost)*

So did everyone get this all sorted out yet?


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## 2DR16VT (Mar 16, 2006)

Any updates ?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

2DR16VT said:


> Any updates ?


Not trying to be a dick when I say this but did you read the thread? 
The thread was started in 2006. In 2009 it was updated with the following:


Issam Abed said:


> ********
> 2009 UPDATE : IF YOU ARE A NEW COMER TO THIS THREAD AND HAVE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT MATING ANY 20V 1.8T CYLINDER HEAD ONTO A 1.9TDI ALH/BRE SHORT BLOCK YOU HAVE 2 OPTIONS:
> 1. Purchase our custom 20V head studs
> 2. Helicoil the block with an M12 to M10 insert and use off the shelf ARP M10 offerings for the 20V head.
> ...


This has long been figured out. :thumbup:


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

Soooo... basically use an 06a 2.slow block, and call it a day? Amirite?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Rod Ratio said:


> Soooo... basically use an 06a 2.slow block, and call it a day? Amirite?


For simplicity just use the 2.0 92.8mm 06A Crank in the 1.8T 06A block and call it a day.

The only time we really do ALH kits anymore is for enthusiasts wanting to build a modern day ABF or 9A motors. i.e. they want the internal water pump set up as well the accessories all in one plane but still want the 236mm block. I would love to dyno test a 220mm block to that of a 236mm block and see if the "rod ratio"  does indeed affect engine response and power output.


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## 1999.5GTIVR6 (Jun 15, 2011)

Does anyone have any pictures/Specification of the Diesels internals vs the Gas ?


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?1674618-20V-Hybrid-How-To


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## 1999.5GTIVR6 (Jun 15, 2011)

thanks, thats a good thread that iv read through 
I was trying to find some comparison shots of the main bearing sections and ect. to compare. 
tdsi have 25mm rods not 19/20mm ect. 
maybe some half cut shots ? or some sketches like on etka


also how do i calculate whats safe for a compression ratio on a boosted motor. the TDI are extremely high comression stock, maybe it could hold up 2L 9.5:1 with a GT30 at say 25-28psi.


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

10:1 is considered 'the limit'..


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## DankNugz (May 19, 2007)

interesting... :thumbup:


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## blueracer35 (Aug 18, 2020)

Hi Issam aded I will like to buy you the bolts for the hybrid conversion AEB head into the ALH BLOCK it would be for road racing possible abou 40 pounds of boost 🏎💨🏁👍🏻


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## fastinradford (Aug 3, 2010)

How about you gasser guys leave our Tdi’s alone


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