# upgrade GT2860RRS to HTA billet wheel on APR Stage 3+



## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Anyone here (cincyTT, anyone) have an opinion about whether the upgrade of the GT2860RRS to a 68mm Forced Performance HTA billet compressor wheel (TU2868RHTA / $700.00) would be incompatible with the APR Stage 3+ using the GT2860RRS.

Although I am concerned that the non-adjustable fuel maps might be problematic because of both the quicker spool and higher flow up top, it seems to me that there is some flexibility in the APR's MAP-based system. After all, there are a number of other factors that affect spool up and flow that are _permissible_ with the APR Stage 3+ kit. For example, using a downpipe of 2.5" - 3" (mine is 2.5"), using different intake manifolds (mine is ABD small-port), using a different cam (Chris Teague (APR) recommended I use the Autotech 190 sport intake, which I did), using OE or aftermarket cat-back exhaust, among other things.

Seems to me that, if the ECU can adapt to a spool of 300-400 RPM quicker, assuming the HTA-upgraded turbo does spool up quicker, any excess up top can be subdued with an adjustment to the N75 (or a manual boost controller) and/or addressed with a higher-flowing pump or increased fuel pressure (or meth, which will richen the mixture up top).

My objective is two-fold: (1) to get a quicker spool (more torque at lower RPM); and (2) to get a little more pull in 4th & 5th. Currently, the car dyno'd at 331awhp, which I assume is about the most I can possible get out of a standard GT2860RS, no matter what other mods I do (short of nitros, which is out of the question). Anyone have any opinions here before I spend (or, rather, waste) the money? I am not interesting in yanking the system and replacing with PAGparts, Eurodyne, and a bigger turbo — I've spent too much money to yank it and start over.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

E85 and tune?


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## Volksdude27 (Nov 25, 2005)

speaking from experience, avoid Forced Performance. yes their turbo make power and quicker spool, but they got the worst client care service I ever saw, and are over priced IMO. You may check with Arnold for his 2871R billet upgrade think that would be a better idea, or sell the 28RS and go with a GTX2867R 

But to speak of your question, What I would do is change the tune for something more versatile, or up to date. I still think that you could probably run the 2868 on the apr tune tough, as many people ran gt2871R on this tune without issue, the only thing is faster spool but system should pick it up no matter


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

I'm sure Gonzo would love to tune that thing!!


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Volksdude27 said:


> speaking from experience, avoid Forced Performance. yes their turbo make power and quicker spool, but they got the worst client care service I ever saw, and are over priced IMO. You may check with Arnold for his 2871R billet upgrade think that would be a better idea, or sell the 28RS and go with a GTX2867R
> 
> But to speak of your question, What I would do is change the tune for something more versatile, or up to date. I still think that you could probably run the 2868 on the apr tune tough, as many people ran gt2871R on this tune without issue, the only thing is faster spool but system should pick it up no matter


What about Comp Turbos out of California? Are they an option? Or Precision? I'll ask Arnold, too. I know he's generally held in high regard as a forum sponsor, here.


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

Volksdude27 said:


> speaking from experience, avoid Forced Performance. yes their turbo make power and quicker spool, but they got the worst client care service I ever saw, and are over priced IMO. You may check with Arnold for his 2871R billet upgrade think that would be a better idea, or sell the 28RS and go with a GTX2867R


Having owned an FP turbo, I have to agree. If I were to do a billet wheel upgrade again, I'd talk to Arnold (PAG Parts) before anyone else. Having owned a plethora of turbos between the 25-75lb/min range on the 1.8T, I don't think anything matches this engine better than a billet wheel 3071, or maybe a billet 28 frame if you can't go 2.0L and still want a very responsive turbo.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

I've had nothing but great experience with FP (maybe because I was one of their ginea pigs for one of the generation of old school evo "green" trimmed hybrid turbos). My personal experience with FP products itself would also make me forgive and forget any kind of bad customer service anyway. These guys really know how to make, market, and improve on turbo technology, not the usual monkey business that's the norm here. With that said, PagParts would be a viable alternative as everyone is pointing out.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

esoxlucios said:


> Seems to me that, if the ECU can adapt to a spool of 300-400 RPM quicker, assuming the HTA-upgraded turbo does spool up quicker, any excess up top can be subdued with an adjustment to the N75 (or a manual boost controller) and/or addressed with a higher-flowing pump or increased fuel pressure (or meth, which will richen the mixture up top).


You shouldn't use meth as a fueling source, and it's not as simple as just raising fuel pressure because the ECU is going to combat that by lowering injection pulse. It can be made to work but it will take some logging with VAG COM and adjusting with Lemmiwinks/Unisettings/etc and you may require going up in injector size.


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

The HTA 2868 is prone to compressor surge. If you choose to use the 2868, buy just the compressor housing for a GTX 2863 (about $190) and have FP machine it to fit the 2868 wheel when they do the conversion. 

Be sure that FP gives you credit for supplying your own compressor housing. The HTA 2868 upgrade price includes a new, standard housing, which you won't need if you supply your own. Or maybe thay can supply you the GTX 2863 housing directly.


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Atomic Ed said:


> The HTA 2868 is prone to compressor surge. If you choose to use the 2868, buy just the compressor housing for a GTX 2863 (about $190) and have FP machine it to fit the 2868 wheel when they do the conversion.
> 
> Be sure that FP gives you credit for supplying your own compressor housing. The HTA 2868 upgrade price includes a new, standard housing, which you won't need if you supply your own. Or maybe thay can supply you the GTX 2863 housing directly.


Thanks much for the guidance, all!

I wonder, if I ought to just sell the GT28RS and go with a new GTX2871R, as VolkesDude27, suggested — or with the GTX2863? In other words, does the FP modified GT28RS (w/ HTA wheel) have any particular benefits over a new GTX? Among these, which might be the best fit for the APR Stage 3+ with —hopefully— nothing more than Lemmi adjustments?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

esoxlucios said:


> Thanks much for the guidance, all!
> 
> I wonder, if I ought to just sell the GT28RS and go with a new GTX2871R, as VolkesDude27, suggested — or with the GTX2863? In other words, does the FP modified GT28RS (w/ HTA wheel) have any particular benefits over a new GTX? Among these, which might be the best fit for the APR Stage 3+ with —hopefully— nothing more than Lemmi adjustments?


GTX2863 has been looking very appealing lately, and would be my pick! It's hard to deny its potential over comparable combinations... and all within the capability of your existing mapping with some Unisetting/Lemmi tweaks. I've been thinking of a potential GTX2863 stroked motor setup for my car sometime in the future instead of going 1.8t with hybrid K04 (mainly due to disappointments in how the US hybrids marketing is done). It would be nice to see before after data if you decide to go with the GTX2863 :beer::beer:


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## Volksdude27 (Nov 25, 2005)

esoxlucios said:


> What about Comp Turbos out of California? Are they an option? Or Precision? I'll ask Arnold, too. I know he's generally held in high regard as a forum sponsor, here.





Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I've had nothing but great experience with FP (maybe because I was one of their ginea pigs for one of the generation of old school evo "green" trimmed hybrid turbos). My personal experience with FP products itself would also make me forgive and forget any kind of bad customer service anyway. These guys really know how to make, market, and improve on turbo technology, not the usual monkey business that's the norm here. With that said, PagParts would be a viable alternative as everyone is pointing out.





Marcus_Aurelius said:


> GTX2863 has been looking very appealing lately, and would be my pick! It's hard to deny its potential over comparable combinations... and all within the capability of your existing mapping with some Unisetting/Lemmi tweaks. I've been thinking of a potential GTX2863 stroked motor setup for my car sometime in the future instead of going 1.8t with hybrid K04 (mainly due to disappointments in how the US hybrids marketing is done). It would be nice to see before after data if you decide to go with the GTX2863 :beer::beer:


can you elaborate why you'd choose the 2863 over the 2867??


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Second on the GTX 2863. This turbo will spool faster than the HTA 2868 ro the GTX 2867 and will be a great daily driver setup, assuming a 1.8L engine. The GTX series have a much higher Pressure Ratio range, so when you are ready to move up with your software, the GTX will allow a higher boost seting and still be operating within its efficient part of thecompressor map.

If you were running a 2.0L or a 2.1L, then I would go with a GTX 2867.


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Atomic Ed said:


> Second on the GTX 2863. This turbo will spool faster than the HTA 2868 ro the GTX 2867 and will be a great daily driver setup, assuming a 1.8L engine. The GTX series have a much higher Pressure Ratio range, so when you are ready to move up with your software, the GTX will allow a higher boost seting and still be operating within its efficient part of thecompressor map.
> 
> If you were running a 2.0L or a 2.1L, then I would go with a GTX 2867.


Then it's settled! As soon as Apple (AAPL) rebounds, I'll get it ordered, and my GT2860RS (approx. 6K miles and ceramic-coated hot side) is up for sale.

I assume it's all plug and play (same flange and oil & coolant lines)?


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## Volksdude27 (Nov 25, 2005)

Atomic Ed said:


> Second on the GTX 2863. This turbo will spool faster than the HTA 2868 ro the GTX 2867 and will be a great daily driver setup, assuming a 1.8L engine. The GTX series have a much higher Pressure Ratio range, so when you are ready to move up with your software, the GTX will allow a higher boost seting and still be operating within its efficient part of thecompressor map.
> 
> If you were running a 2.0L or a 2.1L, then I would go with a GTX 2867.


 Still think that the spoolup difference between the 2863 and 2867 isnt big enough not to take in consideration the 50 hp flow upgrade. Looking at the two turbos maps spool difference would be 200 rpm in the worst case with a wider efficiency range. Only thing i dont understand clearly tough is the 2863 seem to have a slightly bigger pressure ratio efficiency


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Volksdude27 said:


> Still think that the spoolup difference between the 2863 and 2867 isnt big enough not to take in consideration the 50 hp flow upgrade. Looking at the two turbos maps spool difference would be 200 rpm in the worst case with a wider efficiency range. Only thing i dont understand clearly tough is the 2863 seem to have a slightly bigger pressure ratio efficiency
> 
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


The only reason I recommended the 2863 over the 2867 is that the op is already running a 2860 and he wanted quicker spoolup. (First post) I think his APR software would be easier to adapt to a 2863 also.

It's always a trade-off between spool and top-end. They are both good choicesl :thumbup:


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## Volksdude27 (Nov 25, 2005)

Atomic Ed said:


> The only reason I recommended the 2863 over the 2867 is that the op is already running a 2860 and he wanted quicker spoolup. (First post) I think his APR software would be easier to adapt to a 2863 also.
> 
> It's always a trade-off between spool and top-end. They are both good choicesl :thumbup:


Yeah gotcha i kind of jacked the OP post on this one with my own question since I have both units home and still deciding wich one I'm putting in the car. But I do agree that the 2863 will have a behavior much more like the original 28RS the OP has now


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Volksdude27 said:


> can you elaborate why you'd choose the 2863 over the 2867??





Volksdude27 said:


> Still think that the spoolup difference between the 2863 and 2867 isnt big enough not to take in consideration the 50 hp flow upgrade. Looking at the two turbos maps spool difference would be 200 rpm in the worst case with a wider efficiency range. Only thing i dont understand clearly tough is the 2863 seem to have a slightly bigger pressure ratio efficiency
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


ED pretty much answered why it would make more sense for the OP. In your particular case, on a 1.8L I would still go with the 2863 over the 2867. The 50 or so HP that the 2867 will give you may not be worth it in my opinion. I think (as most do) that you're putting too much emphasis on the compressor map, it is only a small piece of the equation. You may get a decent idea of how the turbo will perform/behave in real life at steady state WOT, but this approach will not tell you much about transient response and behavior. To some (like me) the transient behavior is the soul of a turbo (in relation to the displacement spinning it), and comprising that is not worth it for more HP up top that you may not get to use as often as the transient grunt downlow. I hope that made sense!


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Volksdude27 said:


> Yeah gotcha i kind of jacked the OP post on this one with my own question since I have both units home and still deciding wich one I'm putting in the car. But I do agree that the 2863 will have a behavior much more like the original 28RS the OP has now
> 
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


Are you still dinking around with the HTA 2868 wheel? If you are, bite the bullet and get a GTX2863 compressor housing and have it machined to fit the 2868 wheel. Comp Turbo will do the machine work.


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Any opinions on this: http://www.pureturbos.com/store/per...gtx2867r-billet-compressor-wheel-upgrade.html ? It's a service to upgrade GT2860R to GTX2863R for $450. So, I ship him my turbo and turnaround time is 3-5 days (excluding shipping). 

Charles (fella who answered the phone) said, if my car is making 331awhp, it's way outside of the efficiency range of the Disco Potato, and that I probably have oil leaking past the seals even at only 5K miles. But, he also said no warranty without a rebuild (another $450). Said he'd do both upgrade and rebuild for $750 shipped. 

Thoughts? 

*edit*: I should add, Charles said the GTX2863r would _not_ spool any faster than the GT28RS, but only would flow more up top.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

esoxlucios said:


> Any opinions on this: http://www.pureturbos.com/store/per...gtx2867r-billet-compressor-wheel-upgrade.html ? It's a service to upgrade GT2860R to GTX2863R for $450. So, I ship him my turbo and turnaround time is 3-5 days (excluding shipping).
> 
> Charles (fella who answered the phone) said, if my car is making 331awhp, it's way outside of the efficiency range of the Disco Potato, and that I probably have oil leaking past the seals even at only 5K miles. But, he also said no warranty without a rebuild (another $450). Said he'd do both upgrade and rebuild for $750 shipped.
> 
> ...


 Charles saying that the Disco Potato is operating way outside of its efficiency range because it produced 331 whp tells me that Charles is a turbo/hardware expert; but doesn't necessarily have the same expertise on how turbos can or can't perform as part of a system that includes many other variables. 

Oil leaking pass the seals??? :screwy: Might have been a sale tactic to up-sale the rebuilt and tie your hands by saying "no warranty". But if Charles was serious, I'd start questioning their ability to do turbo modifications if they have Charles representing them with statements like that. 

Charles is correct, the GTX2863r as an upgrade would not guarantee faster spool over a the older GT28RS, but Charles is also not taking into account how GT28RS turbos are often allowed to operate and breath in our platform configuration. Not to say that the 2863 can't be butchered as well with strangling exhaust manifold and choked up DP and exhaust systems, but at least there is hope of designing everything well around the new turbo (especially when starting from scratch). :beer:


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## Volksdude27 (Nov 25, 2005)

Had them rebuild a turbo in the past and must say they are professionnal. Never did a billet upgrade from them tough but i would be dying to hear from you after. All in all even with the rebuild total cost is lower than an actual gtx and you would end up with a " new" unit. I would try it if it was me but thats me.

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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Want to thank everyone for really helpful input. 

AAPL is bouncing back, and I took the car over to David (Nür Technik) to get an estimate on the downpipe (discussed in different thread) and removing the turbo to send off for upgrade to GTX2863r this upcoming weekend (depending on what his estimate is, of course). 

Will post dyno after I get it all back together. 

Many thanks, again.


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Turbo was pulled today and gets shipped to PureTurbos.com on Monday for upgrade. Meanwhile, downpipe is being fabricated from 2.5" to 3". Shop doing the work is Nür Technik in Minnesota.


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Update, for those of you considering using Pure Turbos in California: I seem to have no difficulties in finding incompetence when it comes to vendors:

(1) Charles at Pure Turbos told me it would be "Three to five days turnaround time" to upgrade my turbo from a GT2860RS to a GTX2863R. He also told me it would cost $450, but that if I wanted a warranty, he would have to rebuild it for another $450 (total $900). He offered me a deal of $750 to do both. I said, "Let's wait and see what the turbo looks like when it's pulled, because it only has 5,000 miles on it." He guaranteed me that if I'm getting 331awhp, I've been pushing that little turbo way beyond its efficiency range, and it's it's leaking oil past the seals without a doubt. IIRC, one of you guys (above) suggested the dude was trying to sell a rebuild job. When I mentioned that, he took umbrage at the suggestion.

(2) Turbo was shipped on Monday, March 25th to California from MN by UPS.

(3) UPS missed the promised Friday delivery because of a "late train," according to the UPS tracking system. It arrived one week after shipment, on Monday, April 1.

(4) I called Charles on April 1 to review the job requirement. It was then that he revealed to me that, "Actually, we replace the seals anytime we upgrade a turbo. There's no way we're gonna replace the cartridge and not replace the seals while we're in there." At that point, So, I asked, "You rebuild them, anyway, every time? So, the $450 is really just for declaration of a warranty?" He confirmed that as true. That being the case, I offered him $625 to upgrade the turbo and give me the one year warranty. He agreed, and said that was a "fair deal."

(5) Another week has gone by, and I've heard nothing. I've left messages on Tue & Wed, and received no call back. Finally, yesterday, he answered the phone and revealed that some part on their machining lathe failed last week and was just replaced, and so they're backed up. No one thought to call me (or any other customers?), I guess. The 3-5 day turnaround time promise was illusory, I guess. He simply repeated that it wasn't his fault and it wasn't foreseeable. Okay. So, he says, "We'll get it done tomorrow," which is today, and I asked him to make sure someone calls me to confirm. 

Did I get a call? Did anyone ask for my credit card number yet? Is the turbo on its way back to MN, yet? Am I going to have a car to show up at the Minnesota TT GTG on April 27th? No.


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Update: I have learned that the lathe, in fact, is not fixed. The machining for my comp housing is not almost done (and was never started). Charles has no idea how or when they can finish my turbo, which I shipped over 3 weeks ago. As of today, he hasn't kept any of his commitments to call me with an update (i.e., I have to keep calling).


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Sorry to hear your having difficulties with PureTurbo. I was thinking about using them, but I may pass now.

Also, I don't think they sell "true" GTX 2863/7 compressor wheels.

Do let us know how the upgrade works out for you, when you get it back and installed.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

esoxlucios said:


> Update: the guy at PureTurbos.com misled me. The lathe is not fixed. The machining for my comp housing is not almost done (and was never started). He has no idea how or when they can finish my turbo, which I shipped over 3 weeks ago. He hasn't kept any of his commitments to call me with an update (i.e., I have to keep calling).


Call and tell them to send you your snail. HAve it done somewhere else. Thats a bunch of bull$hit.


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Atomic Ed said:


> Sorry to hear your having difficulties with PureTurbo. I was thinking about using them, but I may pass now. Also, I don't think they sell "true" GTX 2863/7 compressor wheels.


After reading your post, Ed, I asked Charles about this. He said, "Oh, yeah, I told you that."

No he didn't.

Look at their Web page: http://www.pureturbos.com/store/gtx2863r-and-gtx2867r-billet-compressor-wheel-upgrade.html (or https://www.iterasi.net/public/users/esoxlucios, in case they modify it). On that page, it states, "UPGRADE YOUR GT2860R, GT2860RS, DISCO POTATO TO A GTX2863R OR GTX2867R !!!"

What's to be confused about? I have a Disco Potato, and they're supposed to upgrade it to a GTX2863R.

Last time I checked, "GTX2863R" is a Garrett part number. See § 17500 of Part 3 of Division 7 of the California Business and Professions Code (defining unfair competition as and including any unlawful, unfair or fraudulent business act or practice and unfair, deceptive, untrue or misleading advertising).

The Garrett wheel, by the way, is a forged, fully machined, Billett type. Now, after I send off my turbo, I find out 3+ weeks later that they are *not* upgrading it to a GTX2863R, and when I asked if it's T7076 or 6065, they can only tell me that it's "Aircraft aluminum," whatever-the-hell that means.

On this page, http://www.evoxforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1233427, there's a pic of the Garrett wheel up next to the eBay PureTurbos wheel with the comment, "how much R&D do you think was put into those straight blades? I could be wrong, but it looks like a cheap wheel to me." On the next page (same forum), when asked if they design and fabricate their wheels, PureTurbos replied, "We play a part in the design of the wheels. A portion of the design is left to engineers," to which another forum member understandably replied, "Sounds like they found some compressor wheels from China on alibaba.com and market them as their own!"

Also, another ongoing PureTurbos story: http://zilvia.net/f/engine-tech/511084-328whp-9-psi-rb25det-thats-right-9-psi-5.html


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## Dowski12 (Nov 2, 2011)

Sorry to hear about your situation. Seems like theres alot of shady companies out their these days. Makes it really hard to want to spend loads of money on car parts when you have no clue what your going to get for your hard earned dollar. Whats so hard about paying someone for goods or services, and getting those goods and services as advertized??? It's not like we're telling them how we want it, we just want it how they say its supposed to be. I really hope you can get it all sorted.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Not to sound like d**k, but a few post up in the thread, I tried to guide you towards FP (some people jumped in saying FP's customer service was to be avoided like a plague). I also tried to warn you about the thing "Charles" was feeding you, but still you tried your luck. Is there a way you can get a refund and your turbo back? I wouldn't feel too optimistic about an Alibaba edition wheel idling at 40,000 rpm in my turbo. I hope you can get a positive outcome out of all this! :beer:


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## Volksdude27 (Nov 25, 2005)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Not to sound like d**k, but a few post up in the thread, I tried to guide you towards FP (some people jumped in saying FP's customer service was to be avoided like a plague). I also tried to warn you about the thing "Charles" was feeding you, but still you tried your luck. Is there a way you can get a refund and your turbo back? I wouldn't feel too optimistic about an Alibaba edition wheel idling at 40,000 rpm in my turbo. I hope you can get a positive outcome out of all this! :beer:


Since I'm one of the guy that told the OP to avoid FP I felt the need to chime in on this one. Honestly I wouldve recommended FP if it wasn't for their "We don't really give a f*ck bout you and your problem even if you paid 2ks and waited almost 2 months to receive our product. Pay again and we might do something when we feel like it" attitude. You might had some great experience with FP I don't deny it at all, neither as that they make power worthy upgrades. But the 2871 I had was a POS grenaded within a month and yet they still put the blame on me charging me almost the price of an upgrade to " rebuild " a freakin new turbo... So yeah out of experience with them and 2 others I know that lived the same kind if experience I don't see why I would recommend them to anyone

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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Not to sound like d**k, but. . .


Max, you know what they say about everything that comes before the "but," right? (Like, "Not to jack this thread, but [gonna do it anyway]").

Hey, I adopted your advice on the downpipe!

As for Charles, I didn't think I was trying my luck (gambling). I figured I retained the power to say "No" on the rebuild and just get the GTX2863r wheel upgrade. I had no idea their advertisement was fraudulent/misleading. And another poster here said they were reliable.

Also, I had called FP, and fella I talked to there actually said he recommended against using the HT2868 with APR Stage 3+ kit.

I'm going to call or write PureTurbos today and hold them to the contract (under the UCC) for a real GTX2863R. If they refuse, I'll buy one new and sue them for the difference between market price and contract price (effectuating cover, under the UCC, a buyer's remedy for non-conforming goods), and double or treble damages under California's Deceptive Trade Practices Act, and include my travel costs to California as consequential & incidental damages under UCC § 2-715. Since I'm taking the bar there in July, I need to brush up on California law, anyway.


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## Volksdude27 (Nov 25, 2005)

esoxlucios said:


> As for Charles, I didn't think I was trying my luck (gambling). I figured I retained the power to say "No" on the rebuild and just get the GTX2863r wheel upgrade. I had no idea their advertisement was fraudulent/misleading. And another poster here said they were reliable.
> *I said I did business with them for regular rebuilds and had good experiences*
> 
> 
> ...



All in all I feel sorry because I'm the one you suggested Pure Turbos because I had a good experience, at least with rebuilds with them.


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Volksdude27 said:


> You see that's what I hate about you Americans ; You're pushing your luck and trying to have the double with the threat of a lawsuit. Come on I totally agree they messed with you, and you deserve a refund and probably a lil bonus for the timeloss you had, but trying to have a brand new Garrett on the top of it is pure greed.


I think you've misunderstood something, so I apologize for being unclear:

I don't blame you or anyone other than Pure Turbos for my decision to send my turbo there. Their Web site is the primary reason I sent my turbo there, and your positive experience was only a secondary consideration (albeit one that I took notice of and made me feel better about the decision).

Also, please let me try to put this into perspective: my car has been down for three and a half weeks, and probably another three weeks from now. As a result, because my car is the only one with snow tires, I was unable to drive my wife's vehicle (the X5) in the sleet today to my 7-year-old's lunch-with-Dad event at school today. Also as a result, I will miss the Twin Cities TT get-together on April 27th. Further, the shop where my car is stored is relocating next week, meaning that I will have to pay towing to get it there. And, it may be necessary for me to front the $1,500 to get a Garrett GTX2863R installed in my car, since that's what they cost new (I'm not aware of where I can get one with equivalent "use" of only 5,000 miles on it).

I should perhaps remind you that I wouldn't be in this position but for Pure Turbo's misrepresentation and deceptive advertising. They have already machined my housing (at another shop, yesterday) for their Chinese wheel (yes, it's Chinese, I verified that today with Charles). Under tort law, this is called "conversion," and results in a forced sale by the court. Under contract law (governed by the UCC), it's called breach and the shipment of non-conforming goods (assuming they ship back a turbo with a Chinese wheel in it). 

Remember, I didn't order a turbo "upgraded" to a Chinese wheel that looks somewhat like a GTX2863R; I ordered an upgrade to a GTX2863R.

So, I am in no way trying to get something for nothing. If it appears that I'm trying to get a "new GTX2863R" out of this situation, it's because I have been put in the position of having to buy a new one because Pure Turbos has hacked up ("converted") my existing turbo for a Chinese wheel, and I don't want it back (at least not that portion of it). They have the option of getting a real Garrett cartridge and compressor housing and mating to my turbine and sending it back, which is fine with me, if they can do it timely.

Please do not accuse me of trying to pull something over someone. I didn't write the Uniform Commercial Code, and I didn't write California's Deceptive Trade Practices and Consumer Protection acts. People who are much smarter/learned than I drafted those acts and created remedies to protect parties to transactions in situations like these. If you do a little research, you'll probably find that Canadian law is not very different from American law, and you should be prepared to use it to your advantage when someone is trying to take advantage of you.


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## Volksdude27 (Nov 25, 2005)

Well I do understand your point a little better now. I was under the impression that you were trying to take advantage out of the situation but with explanation it makes more sense.

And trust me I'm well aware of canadian/Quebec legislation for consumers right. 

The only thing tough is the price tag should have led you thinking that it was a chinese wheel ( Garret's are probably chinese too tough ) I knew that from the beginning. It doesnt mean they are bad. Might even give em a try if i can get my hands on my buddys old RS. Well see what comes out of it. But again Its gonna be a test unit that I don't need specifically your situation's is different

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Volksdude27 said:


> The only thing tough is the price tag should have led you thinking that it was a chinese wheel ( Garret's are probably chinese too tough )


Yeah, Charles mentioned that to me on the phone today (that Garrett's wheels come from China, too). That may be true; even some Bosch components are made in China. But if Honeywell-Garrett puts their name on the part, the part has to be meet exacting materials and manufacturing specifications, or that subcontractor loses a huge contract. Not only must the wheel be made with alloys to Garretts exacting specifications and by machining processes and tolerances established by Garrett, but also they are made to Garrett's engineering specifications (meaning that Garrett's highly-credentialed engineers drew up the specifications, based on research labs consisting of millions of dollars of test equipment, computer modeling, and thousands of hours of testing), and I assume Garrett has spent hundreds of thousands on patents. On the other hand, the Chinese wheels were designed by whom? Using what alloys? Manufactured to what specification? Even if the PureTubos guys "had a hand" in designing the wheels, are they more qualified than Garrett's engineers?

For all these reasons, I never would've sent off my turbo to them if I knew they weren't actually going to upgrade it to a _real_ GTX2863R.


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Well said *esoxlucios* - I hate to hear stories like this but it's good to hear you're on top of it & I hope it makes P.T. reconsider their business practices :beer:


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

Update: Jesse, owner of Pure Turbos, contacted me today. He expressed disappointment at the misunderstanding and seemed very genuine. He stated that he understood how the Web page was misleading and could lead to confusion, and stated that he would change it. He mentioned that, because he does not have a legal background, he failed to appreciate the extent to which the page should have clarified that the upgrade is to a compressor wheel modeled after or that flows similar to the Garrett wheel, but isn't an actual Garrett wheel.

He also wanted to emphasize that the upgrade compressor wheels he sells are made with the finest alloys, and are *not* fabricated in China, and that Charles could not have told me this and I must have misunderstood. When asked him if he would be willing to supply specifications (materials, flow specs, etc.) for me to post up here, he declined, stating that whenever he has posted this information on forums in the past, it turned out to be an invitation to be flamed, and he'd rather avoid the controversy and just sell product that his customers have been very happy with. He said he's become sour on the forum community as a result of these experiences. He explained that he ships out 15 turbos a day, and has hundreds of happy customers, and that the materials, design, and flow specs of his wheels are proven and respectable. He said his intent is to be a serious contender with Forced Performance and Precision Turbo (and that he notes that they, too, avoid becoming embroiled in forum postings).

As for my situation, he's going to obtain a real Garrett wheel and upgrade my turbo for the contract price and get it out to me as soon as possible.

In conclusion, I think he's very knowledgeable about turbos, he's an enthusiast like all of us, and he's a sincere business owner who offers a quality rebuild & fabrication services (I can't say anything about his wheels, obviously), who prides himself for quality customer service, and who has had his share of unfortunate difficulties in the past (e.g., customers who have blown turbos due to oiling problems, who have had their turbos rebuilt, and who blew them again, and who blamed him for the failure when it was a turbo oiling problem). I believe the Web page in question were an oversight that he will correct, now that it has been called to his attention. I should also mention that Charles, the guy I wrote about several times in prior posts, was always very pleasant every time we spoke, even `though there was some confusion about what information was conveyed and when.

The bottom line is that this shop did not take the "Screw you" approach that many shops do take, and that has allowed a resolution to be reached quickly.

I will update more when I get the turbo back and installed.


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