# How bad do exhaust leaks hurt performance?



## clifborder4fm (Jul 13, 2007)

My mechanic friend told me that I have a pretty bad exhaust leak between gaskets that connect my wastegate to my exhaust manifold. Like in idle you can hear the leak. Anyway I was wondering how much a leak like this can effect performance on my 01 vrt? Would it be enough to throw a code? Could it be a reason why I boost 7-8 psi in 1st-3rd gear and only 5psi in 4th and 5th?

Thanks for the help guys


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## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

if its before the turbo like you are suggesting then yes it is not good for performance. It will create spooling problems. i highly recommend you get it fixed.

an exhaust leak after the turbo would not hurt performance at all. it would just be annoying.


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## clifborder4fm (Jul 13, 2007)

Ya it's before the turbo. How bad are we talking with performance loss? I know when I first installed the turbo kit, I would have alot more power in higher gears and then after a while (possible when the leak got worse) I lost it. When I punch it in 5th gear it takes a while to spool and still only gets me to 5 psi on a 8psi wastegate... 

Would I lose alot of horsepower with this leak?


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## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

your turbo relies on back pressure in order to spin it, so if you relieve some of that back pressure with a leak you are removing the ability for the turbo to spin at its highest potential. so instead of all the exhaust energy passing through the turbo in order to spin it you are relieving some of the pressure hence the lower amount of boost.


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## clifborder4fm (Jul 13, 2007)

Ok and that is why I don't notice much of a difference in 1st and 2nd because the flow of air is so high and fast that it doesn't matter..

so I can expect way better acceleration and spooling by fixing this right. 

Also could this explain why when I am in gear and letting the lower gear slow me down, my car backfires (makes a popping sound out the back of my exhaust)?


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## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

Yes in the lower gears you wont notice much of a difference because the amount of load isnt as high as in the upper gears. 

You would hear popping coming from the exhaust leak. Probably wouldnt make the back of the car pop more. Most turbo cars do that anway. Its the nature of the type of engine especially if you are running rich. Typically when the throttle is closed the engine is putting minimal amounts of fuel into the engine. So based on that and the timing of the engine when the throttle is closed it may or may not pop. 

I have standalone and can make my car pop like a rally car or rev down quietly when the throttle is closed and im engine braking. And i can do that based on the timing and fuel at those points in the tuning table.

Dont worry about popping to much when your foot is off the gas. If its doing it when you are on the throttle then start worrying.


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## clifborder4fm (Jul 13, 2007)

k hopefully i will get a night and day difference performance wise by fixing this.


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## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

clifborder4fm said:


> k hopefully i will get a night and day difference performance wise by fixing this.


My old exhaust manifold had a big leak and i had this issue. I got one that didnt leak and things got much better.


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

Why are you using a gasket there? Get rid of it! As long as the surfaces are flat, you don't want one there, Problem solved!


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## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

True but if its tight it should be ok.


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## clifborder4fm (Jul 13, 2007)

'dubber said:


> Why are you using a gasket there? Get rid of it! As long as the surfaces are flat, you don't want one there, Problem solved!


your telling me that my leak is because i kept my stock gasket on!!!???? I have one between the engine block and the exhaust turbo manifold.. 

Thats my problem then??


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

'dubber said:


> Why are you using a gasket there? Get rid of it! As long as the surfaces are flat, you don't want one there, Problem solved!


Stainless steel gaskets work a lot better than no gasket.


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## clifborder4fm (Jul 13, 2007)

do you think my stock gasket would be stainless?


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

Manifold to block use a gasket. Wastegate to manifold, where i thought you said it was leaking, no gasket. Turbo to manifold, no gasket. I burned through two stainless wastegate gaskets before i tried it and it's fine. Just make sure the surfaces are smooth and level.


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## clifborder4fm (Jul 13, 2007)

Ok I had to use 2 quarter inch gaskets in order for my wastegate to fit on the manifold without hitting the turbo. I think I either have to get a smaller turbo or a different wastegate design. Also, I have the gasket from turbo to manifold which could have probablly burnt through.. will remove it

hopefully fixing these leaks will make a big difference


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## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

clifborder4fm said:


> Ok I had to use 2 quarter inch gaskets in order for my wastegate to fit on the manifold without hitting the turbo. I think I either have to get a smaller turbo or a different wastegate design. Also, I have the gasket from turbo to manifold which could have probablly burnt through.. will remove it
> 
> hopefully fixing these leaks will make a big difference


so wait you have a total of 1/2" in between your wastegate mounting surface and your exhaust manifold? can i see a picture of this please?


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## clifborder4fm (Jul 13, 2007)

Flipdriver80 said:


> so wait you have a total of 1/2" in between your wastegate mounting surface and your exhaust manifold? can i see a picture of this please?


Haha uuuh ok

This is when i was first installing the kit so I obviously fliped the wastegate the other way..









But when I did flip it the other way i had to use both the metal gaskets you see in this pic..









bad idea?


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## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

that gasket you have is not a metal gasket, its a carbon material gasket with metal in it. take that thing out and run it straight to the manifold with no gaskets and see how it runs. i bet its disintegrated a little from the exhaust pressure.

if it leaks a little get yourself 3 of these and use them...


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## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

do you have a pic of the turbo area from back a little further so i can see how everything is oriented in the bay?

im having trouble trying to figure out how everything is situated behind your motor.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

2 things i see that may cause you issues. maybe you fixed them before the kit was 100% finished but by the pictures not correct and could be an issue as well as part of your problem.

1- as flip said, ANY exhaust leak BEFORE the turbo will cause boosting issue, if the wastegate is leaking exhaust it will cause the most boost loss issue.
looking at your picture of the WG you have the "weld on" flange that comes with the wg kit...you shouldn't put that between the wg and manifold(unless you need it for spacing but you'll need 2 good gaskets then). you just need one single GOOD gasket. we wouldn't use that style gasket you have with that kit, they burn, shrink, bolts loosen and then cause leaks. plus in the picture is looks like you only have one gasket there anyways...i would remove the flange and just use one single gasket that flip posted above.

2- if you didn't change it yet and if its the same as in the picture now, your oil drain in the picture is at the 3 o'clock postion. i can't be. it need to be a straight up and down as possible. you could have major turbo issue and blow a oil seal inside the turbo if its still like that. 

:beer:


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## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

The oil line location is exactly why i wanted to see a broader view of the setup. Something isnt right with that.


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## clifborder4fm (Jul 13, 2007)

No I clocked the turbo before final install so the oil return is pointed straight down.

Heres a pic. again the wastegate is fliped 180 degrees and has 2 metal flanges in between now. 









It's hard to explain but when i fliped the wastegate, it didn't fit on the manifold with the turbo. The bolt that holds the side niple on the wastegate (where you hook up ur boost line to) was hitting it. Even with 2 metal flanges on i still had to do some minor shaving on that bolt..


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## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

the reason it doesnt work is because for that manifold style you have the turbo backwards. the way the wastegate is setup to be mounted on that manifold you need to have the turbo flipped so that the exhaust exits towards the wastegate or driver side of the car. not the other way around.


should look just like this...


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## clifborder4fm (Jul 13, 2007)

I see... but unfortunatley I would have no where to put the intake and maf sensor.. that's why kinetic motorsports makes the opening for the wastegate to sick out at angle away from the turbo huh...


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## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

sure you would...

it would fit just like this..

see the maf sitting easily on the passenger frame rail?


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

intake can be put on either side, just takes a bit of skill fitting.
or you can more the wg. out of the way.
a few companies do that. many options when you do a custom kit.


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## clifborder4fm (Jul 13, 2007)

haha I can't just delete everything. I will try and get a wastegate that will fit without hitting the turbo. I have one in mind.

Just curious though, when you delete the coolant res, water res, power steering... where does it all go?


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

both post have all the ps, coolant etc bottles pictures and working, nothing is deleted on that mk4 at all...everything where it was and working as factory.


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## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> intake can be put on either side, just takes a bit of skill fitting.
> or you can more the wg. out of the way.
> a few companies do that. many options when you do a custom kit.


This is true for a custom pipe. The op was referencing more of a bolt on type application. I also wouldnt reccomend putting the wastegate that far from the turbo. It can lead to inconsistant boost numbers. If it works then it works. But corky bell doesnt reccomend it hahaha i dont have personal experience with it though lol.


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## groundupjetta (Feb 1, 2010)

I think you should flip your manifold as mentioned before you dont need that wastegate heating up your compressor/intake :what:


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## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

Manifold wont flip on a vr like it does for an 8v. He needs to flip the turbo. Unless he does whats pictured above.


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## groundupjetta (Feb 1, 2010)

Flipdriver80 said:


> Manifold wont flip on a vr like it does for an 8v. He needs to flip the turbo. Unless he does whats pictured above.


:facepalm: yeah I meant flip the turbo. Flipping the mani would still have the wastegate on the same side as the intake dont matter what


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## clifborder4fm (Jul 13, 2007)

Flipdriver80 said:


> This is true for a custom pipe. The op was referencing more of a bolt on type application. I also wouldnt reccomend putting the wastegate that far from the turbo. It can lead to inconsistant boost numbers. If it works then it works. But corky bell doesnt reccomend it hahaha i dont have personal experience with it though lol.


That is such a sweet idea!!! Do you know the owner of that setup or how to contact him? I'm also super curious on whether or not he get inconsistent boost levels..

But I just went to dyno's days with the volvo club :laugh: and they were all inconsistent on each of their runs. My friend's S60R spiked 21 one run and 19 another.. so i think inconsistent boost levels are pretty common and not that big of a deal..


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## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

clifborder4fm said:


> That is such a sweet idea!!! Do you know the owner of that setup or how to contact him? I'm also super curious on whether or not he get inconsistent boost levels..
> 
> But I just went to dyno's days with the volvo club :laugh: and they were all inconsistent on each of their runs. My friend's S60R spiked 21 one run and 19 another.. so i think inconsistent boost levels are pretty common and not that big of a deal..


actually thats really bad. with the wastegate setup properly and the boost controller set up properly you should be seeing the same amount of boost every single time the wastegate opens. inconsistant boost levels is badd.

the reason the above setup worries me is becuase the flow of exhaust isnt naturally going to make its way all the way up to the wastegate. most of the pressure is going to be by the turbo. so when that wastegate opens you will likely see an adequate boost relief, i just worry that as load on the engine and rpms fluctuate the wastegate might not perform as well as it should. 

ask Mr. NLS to build you one of those pipes, i'm sure it would be no problem for him. :thumbup:


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

thanks,
we did that one and it seems fine. i was a bit worried about it as well at 1st to be honest. it was a "test" but worked out int the end. so i'm glad we didn't have to change it.


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## clifborder4fm (Jul 13, 2007)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> thanks,
> we did that one and it seems fine. i was a bit worried about it as well at 1st to be honest. it was a "test" but worked out int the end. so i'm glad we didn't have to change it.


So are you getting consistent boost levels? Everything normal?

Also side question, is that just a fuel pump you have hooked up there to your fuel lines or a adjustable fpr? and how is it working for you, notice a difference?


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

yes
and....
thats a inline fuel filter.
2nd pump is under the car.
you need a 2nd pump to push over 15psi safely.


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## clifborder4fm (Jul 13, 2007)

Ok thanks for the info.

I will definatley try your design there. I have my stock intake manifold on so i can't go directly above the exhaust manifold but I am sure I can go at an angle over the turbo and over the downpipe and just throw a dump pipe on to get those exhaust gases away from my engine bay.

It will be further away from the manifold than yours is so this will be the ultimate test to see if we get consistent boost. If this works then changing out the wastegate and messing with it will be super easy.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

i wouldn't go too far. i didn't want to go as far as we did, but it worked out.


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## Flipdriver80 (Jul 17, 2004)

wategate is supposed to be as close as possible to the turbo...

farther away you get the less consistent your boost will be. think of it like a flow of water. air and water share many of the same properties.

the air under pressure from the motor is going to exhaust itself through the quickest way possible and its going to relieve pressure through the fastest way possible. your turbo creates back pressure so when the wastegate opens the exhaust takes the quickest way to relieve pressure which is out the wastegage. its quite literally dumping the pressure out the exhaust stream. this is all regulated by boost pressure so the wastegate is constantly under regulating the pressure via the boost pressure in the intake manifold. 

with the wastegate closest as possible to the turbo it can regulate this pressure most efficiently. with the wastegate farther away there may be a delay in the regulation of pressure which is where the issue lies.

so the one josh has posted above was not effected much if at all, but you cannot put it too far away. i promise you you will not see favorable results.


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