# Help me spend around $800 - best performance mod for '08 AUTOMATIC Rabbit?



## Nathan Drake (Mar 18, 2011)

I need your help. I have a 2008 Rabbit - automatic (no flaming please). I currently have an intake installed and that's it. I'm not looking to build a monster Rabbit, just have a little performance boost. 

I want to increase performance, not noise, so a loud exhaust/drone is not an option. Being an auto, I'm not redlining the car like crazy, so I'm not sure if certain mods are better suited for autos.

What's my best option? 

Also - rather than start another post - I've searched, but cannot confirm - does adding the high flow cat option to the USP test pipe diminish any performance gains? Doesn't this seem to contradict the whole point of the test pipe? I don't want to deal with emissions testing problems with just the test pipe, but don't want to lose performance by adding the high flow cat.

Thanks for any and all help.


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## TrillyPop (Jan 27, 2010)

software, and spend the rest on exhaust work. people will probably dispute this, but I like my smaller/lighter pulley - changes the character of the car in a nice way...and it's only $100


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## H3LVTCA (Oct 27, 2004)

TrillyPop said:


> software, and spend the rest on exhaust work.


:thumbup: This is exactly what I was going to suggest - however I wouldn't go with C2 Software.


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## Nathan Drake (Mar 18, 2011)

H3LVTCA said:


> :thumbup: This is exactly what I was going to suggest - however I wouldn't go with C2 Software.


Why not C2? I like the idea of still being able to run 87 octane. What do you like?

And can you be more specific when you say exhaust work? Opinions seem to be all over when it comes to custom work - the reason I was looking at Eurojet was that they seemed have the best performance/no drone/not crazy loud option out there. 

If going custom, what do you suggest?

Thanks.


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## TrillyPop (Jan 27, 2010)

I would say for the amount of money you have left over after a tune, have the suitcase muffler taken out and put on a test pipe or high flow cat. The stock 2.25" will be big enough for your stage, just want to take out some restrictions.


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## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

e85 um tune.:thumbup: By far the best bang for buck mod you listed up in the poll. Well if you have e85 readily available  Gains of up to 25% over stock speculated  You can always go back to pump gas if wanted, and run similar numbers to most 93oct tunes.


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## eatrach (May 13, 2004)

i couldnt agree more with Kevin. E85 is part Methanol, which is about 105 ( i think) octane. IF you guys recalls that most car races use methanol. 2 reasons: 1) more horses, and 2) it cools the engine as it enters ( yeah I know racing teams use much higher octane, but still it should have that cooling effect). 
You know, i am kind of interested in that UM intake manifold. Supposed to delivery serious power. But that is like 1300 dollars.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

unitronic stage 1 (91oct) a pulley and then spend the rest on exhaust.

first of, yes i dont like C2, BUT this statement is regardless of which company you go to:

why would you want to keep running 87oct? i mean, yes its cheap. but its also a piece of crap. go at least 89-91 oct fuel. it has better performance, better mpgs and you're engine will like it better.

look at the thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5253088-Multiple-misfires-Please-Help.

all because of a bad batch of 87.

all in all, our motors CAN run 87, just like my mother's V8 Mercedes can do too.. but as in both situations, using 87 SUCKS, it worse for the motor and it takes away some performance.


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## Nathan Drake (Mar 18, 2011)

Anything specific against C2?

You're the second to post about a pulley - do you really notice a difference? If so, what specifically? Will pulleys still reflect any noticeable gains with an auto if not using manu-shift?


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## hop2it (Jul 6, 2010)

If all he's going to do is software, minor exhauset, why spend the money on premium for 2-3 more hp's. Also whats your take on the lighter pulley since it does not come with a harmonic dampener?


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## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

eatrach said:


> You know, i am kind of interested in that UM intake manifold. Supposed to delivery serious power. But that is like 1300 dollars.


Me too. BUT, im getting pissed off lol, mainly because I read somewhere here that another company will be making a intake manifold shortly, but no info can be confirmed or released :banghead: I just dont want to spend 1300 to have one released that could have saved me a couple hundred bucks or more  So im impatiently waiting!lol eace:


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## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

don't mess with the rotating assembly/balancing. ie: NO PULLEY


don't mess with the o2 sensors. ie:no test pipe!

don't mess with the tuning. ie: NA stock motor gets nothing from a tune

I would suggest taking the $800 and saving up another $800 to get the SRI and tune to support it. 1/3 the price of a turbo kit and 1/3 the power. By far the best bang for your buck. By no means will you get the torque a turbo can give you though.

If you're not into all that, get some coil overs and the unitronics or c2 tune. Done.


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## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

hop2it said:


> If all he's going to do is software, minor exhauset, why spend the money on premium for 2-3 more hp's. Also whats your take on the lighter pulley since it does not come with a harmonic dampener?


I have a pulley as well and I did not notice a darn thing :screwy: I have ecs btw


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## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

The harmonic damp transfers all the energy from bad vibrations that would break the motor into heat. Don't replace it, its a bad idea. It may or may not be OK. Only time will tell and it ain't worth it. Physics dictates and object in motion tends to stay in motion and all that jazz. So you'll see no gain from it except off the line. Once it is spinning stupid fast it makes no difference in terms of power. The lighter rotating assembly is an idea adopted from race cars that doesn't belong on stock motors. Its proven to work, physics dictates it works, but its a bad idea on a motor that hasn't been blue printed and built from the bottom up.

You will see a better gain from running lighter, smaller diameter wheels. Both in braking and off the line.


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## hop2it (Jul 6, 2010)

Thanks for input, I know and understand why I haven't gotten a real answer to this question but does the tuning-any of them co's take away from longevity based on the fact that driving style doesn't change(even though we know it does!)


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## Nathan Drake (Mar 18, 2011)

So, it seems a pulley isn't high on the list.

Further research has led me to believe United Motorsport 91/93 may be better than C2. 

Still uncertain about the USP test pipe with high flow cat. Does anyone have this specific version?

Thanks.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

hop2it said:


> Thanks for input, I know and understand why I haven't gotten a real answer to this question but does the tuning-any of them co's take away from longevity based on the fact that driving style doesn't change(even though we know it does!)


dont worry. longetivity wont be compromised


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## vwluger22 (Jan 25, 2005)

H3LVTCA said:


> :thumbup: This is exactly what I was going to suggest - however I wouldn't go with C2 Software.


Why? I have C2 it has been nothing but great to me and many other people for a decent price It does everything its sees it does and gains are all about the same between companies.


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## Nathan Drake (Mar 18, 2011)

Does anyone have info on United Motorsport's software? I can't seem to find a page that breaks down what the options/features are - ie., 87/91/93? I'm hearing good things, but would like to know more.

Anyone?

So, I'm pretty certain I'm going with software + test pipe/high flow cat at this time. Decided to bump to a 91 or 93 tune.

If you think Unitronic or C2 is a better bet, please chime in.

Thanks.


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## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

Nathan Drake said:


> Does anyone have info on United Motorsport's software? I can't seem to find a page that breaks down what the options/features are - ie., 87/91/93? I'm hearing good things, but would like to know more.
> 
> Anyone?
> 
> ...


If you can go e85 tune from UM. If you do not want to run ethanol and stay with gasoline I say go with Unitronic. I have Unitronic stg2+ right now and I like it so far, but I wanna try something new. You live by me right?


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

Well, this is my info and my opinion...
I have talked to drivers with: apr, unitronic, giac, revo and C2. I know no one in my area with united m.
A couple of people who have apr, but had unitronic on the past, say they love unitronic, but they have apr now cause they got it for free at shows, etc.
Some others have tried uni giac and apr, and they ended on apr because of a sale, and said it was cheaper than any option at the moment.
Some have giac and they are happy.
Some have had revo for years, and are in love...

Anyways, all my tring to say, users have tried many options, many say unitronic. Many say apr. And I have also heard bad things about both.

I have unitronic stage 2, and I'm in love. And I woulnt change it.


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## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

My .02 cents are giac and revo are n/a garbage. I personaly have had both. Giac unoticeable gains in performance, Revo same but hassle of a crappy controller to select between valet and the other non-sense(had 2 controllers). I then went to Unitronic only because I heard from them that they wanted to trial it on my car. My file is for normal stage 2 but also for injectors and race gas as well as tuned for the evo header (linear powerband instead of jagged)


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## TylerO28 (Jul 7, 2008)

Any tune will be worth the money...
This motor responds pretty well... Not tons of power, but the way it feels and drives is great!
I have apr, and love it...I chose it because of its many features that I found convenient and useful. Would I use another companies program? You bet! I think you should think of where you want to go... Because united can offer e85 options and intake mani. Apr will not go outside of factory spec stuff... Unitronic were talking about intake mani and turbo stuff with eurojet a while back. And c2 are the only ones right now with turbo options. 
Make your decision based on what mods you want to work toward... I will be turbo in a short time and will be approaching united for the tune, jeff at united did the programming for c2 when he was with them...

I feel people say no to c2 now that jeff started united (my opinion)
C2 makes some great products though... Whatever you choose you'll enjoy!
Apr offers a free 6 hour test, make an appointment to test it out and see how you like it. Most companies offer money back guarantees. Test them all and pick your favorite


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

I honeslty think that's the best thing that has been saif so far.
Don't let US be the judge, and decide for yourself.
Don't be afraid to try em all. At most, you'll be paying the install fee.
I kknow thet revo and unitronic have a 30 day moneyback. Apr should have a 6hr trial.
I would say try apr, then try unitronic. No need to waste time on the others. Don't know if you have an um or C2 dealer nearby. Nor I know their return policy.


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## DrivenAllDay (Mar 13, 2010)

I've had C2 93 octane - I Loved it :heart::heart::heart::heart: Car ran super good 

I now have UM 93 octane/SRI - I Love it :heart::heart::heart::heart: Car runs super super good

I'd rock either one any day!!!!


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## TeamZleep (Aug 28, 2007)

I agree that a lot of people say no to C2 because Jeff left. The big question is though, has anyone used a tune made by Ryan? Dude's sharp, and (although I'm turbo) the tune I got from him is awesome. 

When I first got the tune(pretty sure it was the old stage 1 tune), I had the same cel issue as a lot of turbo guys ran into and after sending the ecu to Ryan to diagnose and re tune, the returned product is amazing. It's a whole different kind of beast. I'll keep going back to them for sure, even though I think I bother the crap out of Chris. :beer:


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

TeamZleep said:


> I agree that a lot of people say no to C2 because Jeff left. The big question is though, has anyone used a tune made by Ryan? Dude's sharp, and (although I'm turbo) the tune I got from him is awesome.
> 
> When I first got the tune(pretty sure it was the old stage 1 tune), I had the same cel issue as a lot of turbo guys ran into and after sending the ecu to Ryan to diagnose and re tune, the returned product is amazing. It's a whole different kind of beast. I'll keep going back to them for sure, even though I think I bother the crap out of Chris. :beer:


+ potter just made the mani software, and it seems to be amazing!

lol, i'm no C2 lover, but i'm not a hater, i'm simply not a fan.


my question to C2: for the 2.5, what has potter made( besides the said product)? is he re doing jeff's tunes? maybe he can do different things?


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## TeamZleep (Aug 28, 2007)

I'm pretty sure Jeff took his tunes with him, so I think Ryan's are all his own. :thumbup:


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

TeamZleep said:


> I'm pretty sure Jeff took his tunes with him, so I think Ryan's are all his own. :thumbup:


i know he did. he told me so. but i believe that C2 could have gotten them back by reading of customers.


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## TeamZleep (Aug 28, 2007)

Explains why I had the throttle correlation issue like other guys did in cold weather/whatnot. Whatever Ryan did to adjust/fix the tune is amazing though. It runs way better. :thumbup:


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## Nathan Drake (Mar 18, 2011)

*Finally, an update!*

So, I finally pulled the trigger and out my money where my post is!

I ended up with purchasing a USP test pipe with high flow cat and a United Motorsports 93 oct tune. I installed the test pipe first, ran it for a couple days and then did the tune.

*Test Pipe:
*
Big thanks to the guys at USP for answering all of my questions. My _first_ thought - I honestly was a little disappointed. I have an Evolution Tuning intake on the car, no other exhaust mods. I'm guessing it's the high flow cat, but the test pipe/exhaust/engine noise is really quiet. Maybe I listened to too many youtube vids with just the test pipe/no cat, but I was hoping for a little more growl. Low end torque seems to have flattened out a little (I miss it), but once over 2800-3000 rpms, the car is MUCH smoother. 

Overall: Great customer service, love the upper range, miss the low end loss, needs more growl. Weight reduction an added bonus.

*UM 93 oct Tune*

Thanks to Tom and Ryan at APTuning. Great shop and great guys. Full disclosure - I've never been in a flashed car before, so my expectations were based on others' feedback. I've heard amazing claims, so my hopes were high. With the ECU back in, and the test pipe already installed, here's my thoughts. Two big thumbs up! The UM tune has made my car into one SMOOTH Rabbit! It pulls in every gear, seems to have effortless power and doesn't run out of breath at upper ranges. It pulls MUCH easier from 40-70 and overall RPMs seem to be down when cruising at 65mph.

Overall: Fantastic mod for the money! No complaints at all. 

*But I need your help!
*

I want to get my "growl" on and ideally a little bit of low end torque (which I know I can't get back cheaply) 

My options:
1 - remove suitcase/mid muffler - I know it will do nothing for performance. I've seen the one good video of this on the 'tex. I don't want raspy at all. How "clean" does this sound?

2- Techtonics exhaust - how much louder is the single Borla vs the dual? Any complaints at all?

3 - Eurojet exhaust - from all the videos I've seen, Techtonics seems a better sound to me. For those who have heard both in person, what are your thoughts?

My concern is I don't want to lose any more low end with the above options to only gain it back in the upper range. What benefits are there to going with a full exhaust vs. just the suitcase delete?
Will full systems reduce low end even more?

Sorry for the long post. Appreciate ANY and ALL feedback.


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## elf911 (Jul 27, 2007)

Picked the first choice because I have the hi-flow cat and software but I went with UM instead of C2 :thumbup: makes a big difference =) Can probably also throw an intake in there too if you check the classifieds for a used one 

EDIT: sorry just read above LOL I have the Evoheader also and that added alot of growl =) or you can just get a nice catback....most people prefer either AWE or Euroject but I have a Neuspeed catback because they were the first to release back in early 2006 :thumbup:


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

get an eurojet!


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## TylerO28 (Jul 7, 2008)

Doing exhaust work will only truly benefit you in the top end...
By removing your cat you also significantly reduced your low end grunt.

I've never been a fan of cat deletes for this reason. I hate how the car feels off the line when running high flow or no cat... Its dead feeling.

So if you want growl, get eurojet...
But be ready for more low end loss.


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## Nathan Drake (Mar 18, 2011)

TylerO28 said:


> Doing exhaust work will only truly benefit you in the top end...
> By removing your cat you also significantly reduced your low end grunt.
> 
> I've never been a fan of cat deletes for this reason. I hate how the car feels off the line when running high flow or no cat... Its dead feeling.
> ...


I didn't realize that even with the high flow cat test pipe combo that I'd feel the low end loss.  I figured the cat would add enough "good restriction" to not flatten out the torque delivery.

It's not horrible, but I'm not thrilled with it. No one seems to mention it as much as I would have thought with all of the feedback here...


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## elf911 (Jul 27, 2007)

Tyler I have an auto and don't think I lost alot of low end from the hi-flow and catback, once I get a chance to dyno again or goto the track I'll see if I can give numbers because if my 60ft is still awesome and the dyno didn't drop I'll be thrill but stoplight/butt dyno my car still pulls hard from low end


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## Nathan Drake (Mar 18, 2011)

The low-end feels great in my auto in Sport mode, but in normal it has lost a little. Again, no major complaints, just real-world commentary.

Would removing the suitcase/mid muffler create the same concerns with creating more unrestricted flow compared to a full exhaust?


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## nightshift1983 (Sep 4, 2006)

I have the techtonics dual muffler exhaust and if I could do it over again I would go with magnaflow. Met a girl at a gas station with it and it sounded awesome. The techtonics exhaust sounds good but I can't really tell while I'm in the car because it isn't that loud. I have um software and when I was getting it installed the guy asked me what I had already performance wise because they put together custom tunes because not everybody has the same parts. I also felt the loss at low end with the usp test pipe and hi-catbut it really pulls even at 60 on the highway when I want to go faster. The only thing I would like to know is what it would feel like with techtonics exhaust, evo headers, usp pipe with cat, neuspeed short ram intake and that intake manifold that um sells with the um software.:facepalm:


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## nightshift1983 (Sep 4, 2006)

By the way, the person with the evoheader from evolutiontuning.com; did you feel a noticeable faster acceleration? What exactly is the difference between stock and aftermarket headers other than a loud noise? At what speeds did you feel the difference, because I only really feel a difference at 60 to around 80-85 on the highway with the um software.


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## elf911 (Jul 27, 2007)

The header has equal length runners and flows much better than the stock mani, it pulls harder at pretty much any speed and across the rpm band but its most noticable above 3k :thumbup:


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## Nathan Drake (Mar 18, 2011)

Any more thoughts/feedback on Eurojet vs Techtonics? 
Also Techtonics single vs dual Borla?

Best places to buy either one? I've seen good prices at MJM and 20squared.

Thanks.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

stick with eurojet! its an amazing exhaust... and surely i'd have one of theirs, if they had it for the jettas


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