# Haldex quattro drift--instructions inside



## Nuvolari (Jun 22, 2004)

*Controlled drift with Haldex quattro--Instructions please...*

Edited to delete the question. I found what I was looking for. 
Thanks for trying to help.


_Modified by Nuvolari at 8:00 PM 12/31/2005_


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## borg54 (Nov 17, 2005)

the only instruction for sliding a car is to exceed the grip level of the tires. a controlled drift is a feel thing and therefore not easily taught over the internet. Basically, find wide open parking lot (cause if you asking how...then you will spin) then go around a corner faster and faster until you start to lose traction. Correct the slide by steering into the direction of the slide.


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## Nuvolari (Jun 22, 2004)

Thank you borg, and I've done my share of sport driver trainings, with getting cars to oversteer and catch them again. Has always been a lot of fun. But that's not what I'm lookin for.
What I was looking for this time was some help in dealing with the specifics of the 3.2's Haldex dynamics. There was a very simple (but probably not simple to do), one-sentence instruction on how to approach a curve with this specific Haldex setup. 
Trial-and-error is one thing, going by specific instruction is another.
Thanks again.


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## scotchy (Oct 2, 2005)

*Re: (Nuvolari)*

Step by step instruction.
Driving along the freeway, as you take an exit at exactly double the posted speed, you accelerate HARD as you enter the corner...thus guarunteeing the "controlled" slide(specific to the A3 3.2 hallidex system) Enjoy! Your tires will now be taken care of.








(Yesss....I know i'm an idiot)


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## Nuvolari (Jun 22, 2004)

Let's put it that way:
Happy New Year!
When I'll find what I'm looking for, I'll post it. No wait, I'll sell it to the highest bidder.


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## Nuvolari (Jun 22, 2004)

I found it. Credit goes to *3dr A3 3.2*
"I think Haldex-Quattro is, from the driver's seat, less interesting than Torsen-Q. The reason being that Haldex disengages the coupling under braking. What that means is the driver has fewer options when negotiating a turn: for a clean corner, Haldex-Q only likes the following order: 
_Turn-in, lift-off oversteer to apex, throttle-on oversteer to exit. That's it. If you miss the oversteer on entry, you end up understeering the whole way out. _
Torsen is different in that you don't have to throw the car into lift-off oversteer to nail the apex without understeer. Furthermore, when things get a little hairy, the Torsen is still keeping engine torque (whether accelerative or decelerative torque) to the rear wheels. So the driver is more in control. 
Because of its engage/disengage nature, Haldex-Q is less intuitive. You have to commit to corners and stick with your decision through the turn. Mid-turn lif-off resulting in Haldex's disengaging upsets the car's balance, making for less than clean lines. Less options. 
Nonetheless, Haldex-Q is still better than no Q at all, and once its limitations are understood it's a wonderful tool."
Best


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## 3dr A3 3.2 (Dec 28, 2004)

You'll get a natural feel for it, especially if you've had some sports driving school time.
Obviously, a frozen parking lot, or even a very wet one, and very worn tires, will make it easier to figure out the car's a-the-limit handling. 
Basically, drive it like a fwd into the turn, transfering weight to the front for some front bite and to get the rear to swing out. When at the apex, nail it! Haldex engages and all four wheels tranfer torque, for a subtle four-wheel drift. 

If you like this, then I highly suggest removing all rear toe. Get it set to 0. Mind you, the car will be less stable in a straight line. Also (and this is especially important for lowered cars) get the rear camber somewhere close to -1.0 degrees (mine was at -1.5, stock, -2.7 lowered). Too much negative camber and the rear just won't budge, leading to understeer.
I also tried 10 minutes rear toe-out, and although that drastically improved turn-in, I was just too "chicken" to drive that on the steet in winter... It sure was nice though!


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## Nuvolari (Jun 22, 2004)

Thanks for the additional instruction. I've done my sports driving classes in Germany, so language was different. What do you mean with "toe"? And what do you mean by "get it set to 0"? 
We're having the first rain this year, just started yesterday, and it will be wet for the next two, three months, on and off. Perfect time to wear out those P6 (which feel like they are worn from day one) and get to know this car better.
I've experimented with tire pressure and found that with increased front pressure (more grip) and standard or slightly reduced rear pressure, you can make it loose in the back. Did you ever try that?


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (Nuvolari)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Nuvolari* »_Thanks for the additional instruction. I've done my sports driving classes in Germany, so language was different. What do you mean with "toe"? And what do you mean by "get it set to 0"? 


toe is one of the alignment settings. 0 toe will give you more sensitive response which is good and bad in some ways. 
Dave


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## 3dr A3 3.2 (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: (crew217)*

Nuvo, try it the other way around: slightly more pressure in rear, slightly less in front. In Bar, I'm @ 2.3 fr and 2.5 rr. The theory behind this is that the lesser presure up front will yield a greater contact patch and therefore grip. However, steering response will be slightly diminished.
Toe: when the car is "seen" from above, the front of the tires pointing in (pinching) is toe-in: 
/ \ fr tires with toe-in
l l rr tires with zero toe
Toe-in (either in front or rear) stabilizes that end of the car. But we all know that stability is the opposite of agility, right? So if you want to gain agility, lose some stability.
check out corner-carvers.com for some great info.


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## TheBigYahi (Mar 28, 2005)

*Re: (3dr A3 3.2)*

quick question, would toe-in be a positive number or a negative number?


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## 3dr A3 3.2 (Dec 28, 2004)

Toe-in is a positive number. 
Here's another thing, but maybe we should start an alignment thread: it *seems* our rear suspension (same for fwd and awd) gives toe-in with compression. When I lowered mine, I had more rear toe-in...


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## Nuvolari (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: (3dr A3 3.2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *3dr A3 3.2* »_Nuvo, try it the other way around: slightly more pressure in rear, slightly less in front. In Bar, I'm @ 2.3 fr and 2.5 rr. The theory behind this is that the lesser presure up front will yield a greater contact patch and therefore grip. 

Hmmm. My theory was that lower tire pressure *reduces* grip, because the tire patch hollows (contact on edges, up in the middle--outsides are worn out on tires driven with too low pressure!).
I learned that the recommended tire pressures are a compromise between reasonable ride comfort and reasonable safety (= grip). Increasing pressure by 0.2 to 0.4 bar increases safety, but reduces comfort.
But then, maybe things have changed?


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## 3dr A3 3.2 (Dec 28, 2004)

All I can say is that I run the higher recommended pressure for the front, and slightly higher in the rear, which lets the rear break traction faster. Give it a try and let me know how it feels.
Ben


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## Nuvolari (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: (3dr A3 3.2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *3dr A3 3.2* »_All I can say is that I run the higher recommended pressure for the front, and slightly higher in the rear, which lets the rear break traction faster. Give it a try and let me know how it feels.
Ben

I'm confused now. Are you saying: more over recommended in front than in back, but still over recommended in back? That's what I would do too. I have yet to try it on this car, but that's what I did on my Golfs in Germany.


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## 3dr A3 3.2 (Dec 28, 2004)

Nope, sorry I wasn't clear: to enhance oversteer, put more pressure in the rear than in the front. But still, run slightly higher than recommended pressure in front. 
If that doesn't give you a more over-steering stance, lower the front pressure to the recommended value. You can also try lowering the front pressure even more, but depending on the tire, you might lose sharpness. 
Ben


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## ylwghost (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: (Nuvolari)*

Lets compare the drifting dynamics of a few cars: (RWD M3, Viscous AWD EVO, Torsen AWD b5S4, Haldex semiAWD R32)
Each one of the mentioned cars provides a unique dynamic at the limits..
what car is capable of tandom drifts on dry asphalt?
what car is capable of donuts in the snow (w/o getting stuck)?
what car is capable of perfect/stable power slides on loose gravel?
what car is capable of perfect/stable cornor-entry drifts on a road course?
the M3's capabilities are pointless to mention (a good driver, with good tires, and in good conditions will give most anyone, a good run for their $)
the R32 is lacking the center dif:
not ideal for high speed/ stable drifts.. but awesome potential for breaking the rear completly loose while not getting stuck in the snow (the sudden weight transfers may aid in getting the rear to break loose.. and Haldex's extreme dynamic of *in some situations* sending ~100% to the rear helps keep that momentum going)
the EVO needs both axles to unnaturally spin at the same rate around turns:
having both axles locked is not the most dynamic way to get around a turn.. in high traction conditions
on heavy/loose gravel, however, it is almost ideal to have both axles locked; this gives stability while you power slide through the bend
the S4 allows for the natural variance between the axles:
this permits for the most effecient use of traction around cornors.. the 50/50 distribution still provides some understeer; which is in fact ideal to set up the only benifitial drift on a road course.
the car will slightly understeer.. but when you punch it through; it will drift to set up a new angle.. the fronts will claw its way through and straighten the angle out, while preventing the car from breaking loose upon exit (giving you the best use of the straight)
--however, just as Haldex is unpredicable in some conditions; so is Torsen.
On loose gravel (where the traction is inconsistant) Torsen is perhaps overly dynamic *with the 50/50 torque split* because the axles only lock ~60%; allowing ~40% of the power to juggle back and forth (creating under/over/understeering cycles)
the next generation Torsen differential (or Statis 4:1) is interesting to me:
I am not sure if the loss of understeer will make it harder to set up the cornor-entry drift (and it may be easier to break the rear loose upon exit)
-but it should be more stable on loose gravel.. not allowing as much power to transfer up front (maybe)
Please point out any potential falicies that were mentioned:
the point is that each drivetrain excels in one condition or another..
..just felt it is good to bring alive some examples to help explain the differences
--AWD has been traditionally (generally) seen (sold) as a saftey benifit:
in that regard, there are very few differences between each
As far as enthusists are concerned.. we will push the limits of these 'safer' cars
-and at the limits you will find that each system is dynamicly different (not better or worse)


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## Nuvolari (Jun 22, 2004)

Nice write-up, and you seem to know what you are talking about (which I hardly do, in this field).
One question, though: why do quattro'ed Audis, in competitive, professional racing, usually win, and get penalized, and penalized, and penalized, and still win, over the non-quattro field?


_Modified by Nuvolari at 11:04 AM 1-4-2006_


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## ylwghost (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: (Nuvolari)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Nuvloari* »_One question, though: why do quattro'ed Audis, in competitive, professional racing, usually win, and get penalized, and penalized, and penalized, and still win, over the non-quattro field?


The main difference in Torsen Quattro is the allowance of the natural variance of speed between both axles.
-think of pushing a shopping cart around a cornor (the front and rear will spin at different variances at different point of the turn) 
lock them up (a la EVO) and you are forcing an unnatural tendency (which to a small degree changes the cornoring behavior.. the inside tires have a tendency to slip)
-Torsen is simply the most effecient use of traction
Note: the DTM and LM cars have a lot of differential work (and may or maynot have a Torsen center differential).
Factory Quattro is designed with ABS/EDL (EDL is an electronic LSD at the front and rear differential.. it works well; but eats up the brakes)
-often times a serious track car will have swapped in real front and rear LSD's (and not always torsen differentials)
*anyone feel free to clear things up; my knowlege is limited as well


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## montrala (Oct 24, 2005)

*Re: (ylwghost)*

"Torsen" quattro (as in A4, A6, A8) with it's variable torque shifts is biased more toward racing on best line with full grip, than any sort of drifting. Especially if traction coeficient chages suddenly while in drift - in this condition torsen starts to wildly transfer torque back and forth, makien car unstable. That's why Audi Quattro shines in racing where no drift is used or neccesary, and no loose surfaces are used and is completelly not competitive in rally racing where loose surfaces and/or sudden changes of surace apperas all the time (only time in rally was when Quattro was only car with AWD, competing agains RWD Ford Escorts and like - whem Lancia Delta with fixed torque split entered Audi Quattro was almost instantly wiped out). Also in racing you know best racing line of every corner by memory, while in rally racing this is not the case.
Haldex excels in long drifts (like 500m drift doing 200kph) in slippery condtion, when it can lock fully. Once haldex goes into lock condtion it gives stable and predictable behavior. It's harder to get it out from underteer, but once is starts to drift, it's way easier to controll than torsen quattro. Of course haldex require stay on throttle all the time - once you go off-throttle or on the brakes (becouse ofh "chickening" for eg.), you suddenly go FWD... and straight into the landscape. Personally to overcome understeer sometimes I aplly some left foot braking to loose end (right foot on the throttle all the time!) like in FWD car, then after I release brakes haldex locks. BTW I noticed that handbrake in my 3.2Q doesn't "open" haldex - only using main brakes "opens" haldex. To do 180 degree spin I just touch brake to disengage haldex and the apply handbrake, but I'm still on try and pray level with this particular skill.
Regular (fixed) split AWD (like in Evo, RS Cosworth, Impreza, Integrale, Eclipse etc.) no matter if it's just mechanical or with ECU controlled locking gives most confidence and most stable, predictable platform. That's why it's best in rally racing (WRC). But still it underteers on corner enter and need serious input from driver to start drifting out of the corner. While I was driving my Evo V i used to downshift in late entry and go WOT. Kinda scary however and seemed to work on Evo only (Impreza and Integrale were to easy to spin in this condition).
Above is based on my small experience and some discusion and lessons with two my friends, one several time rally champion of Poland (mostly on AWD cars), second several times hillclimb champion of Poland and Central Europe (on AWD cars).


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## ylwghost (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: (montrala)*

nice input..
AWD has generally been sold as a saftey benifit (which all of them add to a simular degree)
-when you are talking about these cars at their limits; they each excel in unique conditions.
You mention left-foot braking with Haldex (and I have been curious about's its behavior with conflicting inputs.. braking under full-throttle) 
-so Haldex does not disengage in this situation? If the same is true with DSG + Haldex; This would be a great all-around setup IMO(especially becuase with 3 pedals; I don't have room for my size 14's to work the gas and brake with independent feet)


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## montrala (Oct 24, 2005)

*Re: (ylwghost)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ylwghost* »_You mention left-foot braking with Haldex (and I have been curious about's its behavior with conflicting inputs.. braking under full-throttle) -so Haldex does not disengage in this situation? 

I was sure that I made it straight: it disengage. Car behaves exactly like when you use LFB in FWD car - front get more weight shift and more grip (still transfering power) while rear gets less get shift and less grip to reduce understeer. Up to the limit of entering into oversteer condition (rear breaks loose), they you go off-brakes, haldex engages (provided that throttle is engaged all the time) and you have nice AWD drift. DSG doesn't interfere with this behavior.
Of coure fastest way is aways no slip, ideal racing line, but we are talkin fun here... aren't we?


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## 3dr A3 3.2 (Dec 28, 2004)

Yes we are!
BUT, keeping the foot down on the accelerator, and doing LFB, the engine management cuts power. 
NOTE: this is only if you LFB for over a second or so. Montrola, your 3.2Q is manual transmission, yes? Would you mind trying this to confirm? Thanks!
ylwghost, could you try it with DSG as well? Thanks!

PS: Integrale: Yum !


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## ylwghost (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: (3dr A3 3.2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *3dr A3 3.2* »_BUT, keeping the foot down on the accelerator, and doing LFB, the engine management cuts power. 
NOTE: this is only if you LFB for over a second or so. Montrola, your 3.2Q is manual transmission, yes? Would you mind trying this to confirm? Thanks!
ylwghost, could you try it with DSG as well? Thanks!


I believe its the DriveByWire that allows the power to be cut through the engine management (so DSG or manual might not matter)
-and like you said, there feels like there is a second before it cuts (this is likely enough time for the rear to change angle before you let off; when Haldex kicks in, pushing you through the drift)
Are you able to sustain decent drifts on a road? (or only on loose traction conditions)
3dr A3: I havn't pulled the trigger on an A3 yet (still driving my B5 5speed)(waiting for info on a 2.0TQ A3 or a future 2.0T B5 Swap)
-Although the R36 and S3 will likely be insane
I like the tight lines that Torsen holds (especially in the street where I often don't want my tail out in both lanes)
-The fun is when you try to break it from the line; or see how hard you can push it around the turn (with all 4s screaming)..
But Haldex has potential to give the extremes in the drivetrain.. and this is what allows a Haldex car to hold a more extreme angle throughout the drift (where Torsen will be clawing its way out of the angle)
With any drift, the recovery is the most important:
Both Torsen and Haldex can be unforgiving if you chicken out.. you need to either punch it until your straight (which has to be a concious effort before you take the turn).. or you need to back off SLOWLY


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## montrala (Oct 24, 2005)

*Re: (3dr A3 3.2)*

I have DSG. Yes, DbW cuts power, but short burst on brakes (before DbW goes in) is enought set car into drift in slippery condition. Probably not enought in good grip condtion but I wouldn't use this tehnique doing 220kph on dry tarmac anyway








Integrale: among all AWD (tubro AWD) cars that I happend to own or drive this one was most demanding and completelly unforgiving car... and one that delivered real sense of acomplishmend if I finished lap or SS without spining around a corner. Make one mistake an it rips your head off


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## 3dr A3 3.2 (Dec 28, 2004)

No joke! I just drove a clean Lancia Evo (sadly, the one with catalytic converters) a month ago... I don't ride horses, but I imagine taming a wild mustang would be similar!!
ylwghost, I can and have broken tarction with all four wheels on grippy tarmac. In two situations: on corner entry with massive rear to front weight transfer while doing a right to left-and back to right movement before a right hand turn, and on corner-exit, by entering too fast (=understeer) and powering out of the turn (=neutral (very subtle) drift).
You're right in saying the A3's drivetrain makes for clean, tight drifts. 
Montrala, it looks like you have a lot of rallying experience! Is it big in Poland? Huge here in France (GO Sébastien!!!).


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## ylwghost (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: (3dr A3 3.2)*


_Quote, originally posted by * 3dr A3 3.2* »_I can and have broken tarction with all four wheels on grippy tarmac. In two situations: on corner entry with massive rear to front weight transfer while doing a right to left-and back to right movement before a right hand turn, and on corner-exit, by entering too fast (=understeer) and powering out of the turn (=neutral (very subtle) drift).

So you are using a skandanavian flick; Montrala is using left foot (trail) braking
-either way you are setting up the rear before punching it through
I know traditionally you don't want the drivetrain dependent on the driver's inputs..
but I think with this new technology, it allows for a very rewarding car.
-sense this FWD/AWD hybrid is a relitively new setup; its important to know where to treat the car as a FWD, and when to treat it as AWD (and use it to its advantages of having the split personality)
Especially with the next gen Haldex units and the tunability that it has over Torsen; seems like we are going to be seeing some more incredibally fun cars (just need DSG + FSI2.0T + Haldex)
DSG: the auto/manual hybrid
Haldex: the FWD/AWD hybrid
-giving the best of both worlds


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## 3dr A3 3.2 (Dec 28, 2004)

Scandinavian? They copied us! We call it "appel-contre-appel" (to be pronounced with the correct RRon-RROOON-RooNN accent (LOL)). 
In hairpins, I treat it like a fwd going in and a awd going out.
In sweepers, I treat it like an awd, entry and exit.
ALWAYS, I stay commited to the accelerator (except for that one time I did not, and ended up in off-road...)


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## Nuvolari (Jun 22, 2004)

Just wanted to say thank you to all the contributors for the added and in-depth information. It shows me that I have lots of practicing to do before I ever try something like you guys suggest on a street.


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## ylwghost (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: (3dr A3 3.2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *3dr A3 3.2* »_Scandinavian? They copied us! We call it "appel-contre-appel" (to be pronounced with the correct RRon-RROOON-RooNN accent (LOL)). 

-thats funny- 
I can see the French navigator shouting it now
-is the translation ?inside-outside-inside?
I have heard many variations to this technique
-I generally think of winter Saab driving
(now I can think of French Rally driving too.. if I could ever get the pronunciation correct)


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