# Front Suspension Knocking Noise



## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

Hi all,

my P has recently developed a knocking noise coming from the front right when I go over a pothole. My first guess was a worn anti-roll bar drop link, but I've just taken the drop link off and it looks absolutely perfect. (I noticed that they have updated this part since my last 2008 P which had aluminium inserts in the rubber bush and easily distorted - now they have a stainless steel insert.)

It sounds like the "clunk" comes from high up on the front right suspension. I have looked at all the bushes on the arms and they look fine. If this was a "traditional" car I would have guessed that the top suspension mount bearing had failed, but am I right in thinking that the P doesn't have one of these bearing mounts ?

Any ideas please?

Thanks,
Robbie


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Look carefully at the aluminium surrounding the bushings on all the control arms (given how many there are, that's probably a half-day job....). When the bushings start to fail, it's not immediately obvious by looking at the rubber when they're not under much load, but you get metal on metal contact which is visible. Depending on your mileage, I'd still think about changing the droplinks first because it's so cheap & easy to do compared with the control arms. As soon as you touch the control arms you'll also need an (expensive) alignment.


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

invisiblewave said:


> Look carefully at the aluminium surrounding the bushings on all the control arms (given how many there are, that's probably a half-day job....). When the bushings start to fail, it's not immediately obvious by looking at the rubber when they're not under much load, but you get metal on metal contact which is visible. Depending on your mileage, I'd still think about changing the droplinks first because it's so cheap & easy to do compared with the control arms. As soon as you touch the control arms you'll also need an (expensive) alignment.


Thank you. 

The car has done 52K miles. I may change the drop links in the Summer, but for now I'm really sure they are OK as the rubber is fine and the sleeves are not worn. As mentioned, I think the clunk comes from the top end of the suspension. I'll have a closer look at the control arms when it's a bit warmer ! 

Can I assume then that there is no top bearing ?


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I think it's a McPherson setup, so the top of the strut must have movement. I'd be surprised if it's that, but you never know. How do you know it's coming from the top end? It's really hard to pinpoint suspension/control arm noises. The upper control arms are also close to the top of the strut anyway. From memory, it was around 60k when I replaced the droplinks on mine due to clunking.


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## pgoober (Jan 4, 2009)

*I too have had to replace drop links and control arms*

I got rid of some noise with one, and the rest of the noise with the other. 
Mine got bad enough that I also had uneven tire wear...although I was never sure that suspension and not balance was the cause of that but the first alignment did not alleviate the uneven wear. Might be worth keeping an eye on it.

-BD


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## imon_2nd (Apr 29, 2015)

Robbie;

My M3 (sold last year) had a bad clunk over pothole hits at the passenger side rear. It turned out to be a failed hard rubber bushing under the strut attachment washer at the top of the strut. My son and I replaced the bushing ourselves. That took an entire afternoon due to limited access.

On the Phaeton front strut, the top end has a "strut support bearing" that has a rubber element in it. Unlikely, but it could be that the rubber part has disintegrated. If it has, you should be able to make the strut top housing move up and down about 1/8" at the mounting point. Might be hard to get access to check it.

Cheers,

Dave


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks for the suggestions guys.
Robbie


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Hi Rob, The bolts that secure the links have to be extremely tight no matter how new they are, otherwise they will produce a clonking noise as the bolts hit the inner surface of the metal inserts inside the bushings when driving over bumps. So, unless you participate in Scotish athletic events I would advise you to tighten the bolts in a car lift, not at your driveway, and also to use an S shape spanner as it makes the job easier. Gabriel


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

The problem with that is the droplink bolts have to be torqued under load. I put mine on ramps to do it so I could get a longer torque wrench on them.


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## rmcclain54 (Sep 2, 2012)

Sounds like what I have as well. It was really bad and the stabilizer/drop links were definitely bad and I replaced them. This improved the noise a great deal but its still there. A euro specialist shop I have used for many years thinks it is the mount at the top of the strut.

I look forward to fixing it, but a transmission issue looms and is priority.


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks.

I wonder if this top bearing is fitted to the top of the strut or to the bottom of the bracket - part 5 shown in this diagram.

http://www.jimellisvwparts.com/showAssembly.aspx?ukey_assembly=737539&ukey_make=1066&ukey_model=15568&ukey_category=21731


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

I am interested in this discussion as my 2008 P also has a suspension noise: nothing you could call a clunk or bang, just a noise indicating something is not as tight as it was when new. I have 130k miles, and car had all droplinks ( 2nd time) and all control arms done around 100k. Droplinks are fairly characteristic: a sharp clumk on speedramps and the like.
The noise I have is not so much when the pressure is UP on the front suspension, much more so when the pressure is released: like going into a pothole or after cresting a speed-ramp. 

I too have suspected the top mount but VW have dismissed this notion, however some of their recent diagnostic skills have been unimpressive  so I would be interested if anyone has demonstrated a fit through addressing the top mount.

Hugh
Dublin


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Irish Phaeton said:


> I am interested in this discussion as my 2008 P also has a suspension noise: nothing you could call a clunk or bang, just a noise indicating something is not as tight as it was when new. I have 130k miles, and car had all droplinks ( 2nd time) and all control arms done around 100k. Droplinks are fairly characteristic: a sharp clumk on speedramps and the like.
> The noise I have is not so much when the pressure is UP on the front suspension, much more so when the pressure is released: like going into a pothole or after cresting a speed-ramp.
> 
> I too have suspected the top mount but VW have dismissed this notion, however some of their recent diagnostic skills have been unimpressive  so I would be interested if anyone has demonstrated a fit through addressing the top mount.
> ...


My Phaeton also makes noise if I go over uneven pavement or down a driveway curb. The dealer and I looked at all of the lower suspension bushings when it was getting an oil change and they all looked good. I looked at the top bushings later and they all looked good also. Has anybody found bad bushings in the subframe? That's my next guess.

The other one has no noise, but it supposedly had new control arms installed by the previous owner. 

-Eric


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> Has anybody found bad bushings in the subframe? That's my next guess.
> 
> 
> -Eric


For other reasons the subframe has been loosed & tightened ( to get the alignment 100%) and it has had made no difference. I don't think it's subframe. I expect if subframe had any movement you would see rapid tyre wear?

Hugh


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

*A*



53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> Has anybody found bad bushings in the subframe? That's my next g8I67U62`3EW]#
> + Cess.
> 
> 
> -Eric


For other reasons the subframe has been loosed & tightened ( to get the alignment 100%) and it has had made no difference. I don't think it's subframe. I expect if subframe had any movement you would see rapid tyre wear?

Hugh


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

I have changed the drop link bushes for powerflex bushes. All the control arm rubbers look absolutely fine, so I'm convinced that my "clunk" is from the strut.

Having done quite a bit of research, I've been reliably informed that there is a bearing at the top of the strut which is encapsulated. This can be changed by a specialist with the correct tools.

I have read in other posts that some people who had Mastertech reconditioned struts fitted still found that there was a clunking noise from the strut. They said that Mastertech were very helpful and replaced the struts under warranty using OEM parts inside the strut.
So I'm wondering what particular part it was that caused the clunk - was it the bearing, as that to me seems the most likely part to fail and "Clunk" ?

There is a small company in Surrey who claim to be able to change a bearing for reasonable money https://airdominance.co.uk/ 
(you have to remove the strut and take it to them.) 

I may give them a try.


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## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

The strut does not rotate when you steer, it is not a typical macpherson strut. 
The knuckle/wheel hub rotate on a single lower ball joint,,and the two ball joints at the upper end. 

Not saying there is not a compliant mount at the top of the strut, but compared to a typical strut, there is not the same bearing/upper mount.


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks Bruce.
I'm hoping it is the "Strut support bearing" as shown on page 37 here: www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_275_d1.pdf


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## snapdragon (Aug 8, 2006)

Had a good look when I did my arms and decided that as cbh123 says, the strut mount bearing does not rotate on these cars and really doesn't look at all like a wear item but you never know.


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## perfrej (Dec 24, 2009)

I had the same clunking and it turned out to be one of the steering bar end-joints (or whatever they're called). 4E0 419 811 E

/per


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## anthonymck (Mar 8, 2012)

*Lower Control Arm*

Same noise in my 2005 V8 - and also a creaking during cold wx. I am told by Ourisman VW that its the Control Arms ($2289) and Stabilizer Link Bushing ($530). any recommendations for purchasing OEM or quality replacements for this job ?


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## perfrej (Dec 24, 2009)

I assume those prices are including labour? The drop links themselves should be around $80...

/p


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## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

perfrej said:


> I had the same clunking and it turned out to be one of the steering bar end-joints (or whatever they're called). 4E0 419 811 E
> 
> /per


Called "tie-rod ends" in North America


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## perfrej (Dec 24, 2009)

cbh123 said:


> Called "tie-rod ends" in North America


Thank you 

/p


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

After fettling with the car for many months, in a vain hope to stop the knocking I changed the two upper control arms. 

As I wasn't really expecting this attempt to fix the problem (the rubbers bushes looked good and the ball joints were tight), I bought cheap pattern parts from autodoc.co.uk. They only cost £30 for the pair, including delivery, but they actually seem like decent quality parts.

Unfortunately after a day the noise returned. It seems strange that on the High suspension setting the noise is much less noticeable (although it is still there) and after lowering it to Normal the noise can take a while to re-appear.

I have become quite adept at removing the suspension strut and it only took me a couple of hours to change the arms. (It is much easier once the "pinch bolt from hell" has been removed and replaced with a well-greased one.)

I've already changed one of the the lower control arms, re-bushed the drop link, changed the steering tie-rod and had the suspension strut refurbished. The D-bushes on the anti-roll bar look perfect.

I wonder if the right engine mount could be the culprit ?


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

I have the same knocking noise as the OP and also on the RH side. This is on my high mileage (157k miles) '05 V8. Over the last 6 months I have replaced all front suspension control arms with new TRW arms, new VW drop links, new VW front wheel bearings and used all new hardware for the job. The previous owner also had two new VW front air struts installed about 3 years/ 25k miles ago. The noise has always been there but seems to get louder now over the last few weeks. 

I checked the subframe bushings and they look a little worn but I also suspect the steering tie rods might cause this. The tie rods are easier to replace so I might tackle that first but wanted to see if someone has any other pointers on what could be the problem.


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

I tried all of the above except the subframe bushes. I still have the knocking noise. 
I have personally refurbished another strut which I will fit one day. 

I don't have my P at the moment as the VW dealers have had it for the past 4 months while they argue with the manufacturer as to who is paying for the door corrosion for the second time 
They have given me a brand new Golf TDi to put on as many miles as I like. I'm not too bothered at the moment, so long as I get the 4WD Phaeton back for Winter 

Good luck with your hunt for the cause of the noise Phaetonlvr. PLEASE let me know if you find it !


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

I put my low mileage (63k miles) W12 that has a nice and tight front suspension, on the lift and checked on the subframe bushings. They have some small cracks but not as bad as on the high miler but the subframe moves about the same amount when using a pry bar. I'm not convinced at this point that those bushings are the issue. It could also be an engine or transmission mount according to some of the Audi forums. I'll have to investigate further.

Furthermore replacing the subframe bushings is pretty involved apparently and according the Bentley manual can only be done on the steel subframes. The W12's are steel but the V8's are aluminum. It also requires a special hydraulic press tool and I'm not sure a regular press can do the job. Anyway, I might resort to pulling the subframe out of my parts car and swapping it in just to see if it makes a difference.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Stephan,

You are aware the rear subframe also has bushings, right?

There's also bushings between the rear subframe and the support for the rear drive shaft. I don't have the pictures in front of me now, but they are shown in the suspension training guide.

I just mention them because sound travels and some of those mounts may not even be visible with the rear subframe installed. 

They were among the bushings I would have replaced on all Phaetons had I opened a Phaeton shop.

-Eric


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> Stephan,
> 
> You are aware the rear subframe also has bushings, right?
> 
> ...


Yes, I'm aware of those bushings but I'm still trying to locate where the noise is coming from. It's most noticeable at low speeds especially over manhole covers and small bumps in the road. I tried it with the engine off and I can hear that knock when the front axle goes over the manhole cover and before the rear axle gets there which is why I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in the front. Of course something in the drivetrain could shift the weight in such a way that it unloads something on the rear. It's certainly frustrating to pinpoint the source of that knock.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

Btw, the subframe is one of the few parts where the W12 version is cheaper than the V8 version ($1k vs $1.5K new from 1stvwparts)


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Stephan,

How about the motor mounts? 

My 2nd one had a broken vacuum solenoid that the dealer mechanic said was for the motor mounts. He said a nipple was broken on it and it looked like it had been super glued in the past. 

I bought a new solenoid from eBay and he replaced it for me. The vacuum line that broke off it was one I thought was for the Secondary Air Injection system. As the mechanic said, any vacuum leak on "the motor" could cause a fault in the Secondary Air Injection system and turn on the CEL, but I digress.

The 2nd one always rode better than the 1st one. My 1st one rattles when I go down driveways onto the street. I have to drive really slow on the way out of the storage facility with it but not the 2nd one. 

My 1st one has a broken left front level sensor. (actually the wiring to it.) Some have said that a non-working level sensor affects ride. (I think it's in the suspension TOC thread.)

The mechanics check bushings (well, the ones they can get to anyway) during annual inspections and mine have always checked good. They pry against them to see if they deflect and by how much.

The 2nd one had some lower control arm bushings that were starting to perish and that was found during the 2016 inspection. It still rode better than the 1st one. I could have replaced the bushings but the boot over the left ball joint was torn. 

I used to see front subframes on eBay all the time. I haven't actually looked for them and they were probably V8 subframes. In eBay when I look for any Phaeton part, "similar items" are literally anything else that goes in a Phaeton, VW or not.

I would practice on an eBay subframe first unless you are ready to part out your parts Phaeton. You would probably have to put it on jack stands or cinder blocks. (Don't use cinder blocks, that was a joke.)

-Eric


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> Stephan,
> 
> I would practice on an eBay subframe first unless you are ready to part out your parts Phaeton. You would probably have to put it on jack stands.
> 
> -Eric


Here's one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Crad...ash=item41a0f7bc2b:g:M8AAAOSw7FRWXwwo&vxp=mtr

The next cheapest one is from this seller. He has two of them priced the same:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/OE-Volkswag...ash=item1a2f259cb4:g:tTAAAOSwDrNZVAIU&vxp=mtr


-Eric


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Have you checked the sway bar bushings? There are big rubber pieces just after the second bend in the bar if I remember correctly.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> Here's one:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Crad...ash=item41a0f7bc2b:g:M8AAAOSw7FRWXwwo&vxp=mtr
> 
> ...


Eric,
thanks for the links, saw those a few days ago and they are actually pretty reasonably priced. My parts car has to be able to move under its own power for now so can't really use the subframe of that car except if I swap the other one back in but that's a lot of work compared to just buying one for $230 on Ebay. I also checked the motor mounts but it's difficult to tell if they are good or not.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

invisiblewave said:


> Have you checked the sway bar bushings? There are big rubber pieces just after the second bend in the bar if I remember correctly.


Good point, thanks for reminding me. I probably did but will check on those again. If I remember correctly VW only sells the complete sway bar with the bonded rubber bushings. I wonder if there are aftermarket bushings that would fit?


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I think I saw some aftermarket ones somewhere, but maybe I'm misremembering. Getting vulcanized rubber off suspension parts isn't usually a lot of fun....


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

Did some searching today but can't come up with an aftermarket front sway bar bushing. When I took the sway bar off my parts car the rubber bushings were pretty much loose already, seems like after a few years they all come loose.

A new sway bar with the bushings is about $250, might have to go with that after I inspect those.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Here's a used bar with mounts and bushings:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2004-2005-2...ash=item2383d1b3d5:g:z20AAOSwcgNZCiL2&vxp=mtr

Here's a bracket but they don't appear to come with the rubber bushings:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-OUT-OF-...ash=item2a7d5a267f:g:yqcAAOSwol5Yyqh~&vxp=mtr

I should look at mine also.

If you want the whole bar:

OEM price:

https://parts.vw.com/p/STABILIZER-B...t-42-liter--60-liter/48762606/3D0411305H.html

ECS:

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-volkswagen-audi-parts/stabilizer/3d0411305h/

Jim Ellis:

http://www.jimellisvwparts.com/prod...--COMPLETE-STABILIZER/5400746/3D0411305H.html

VW parts Outlet:

https://www.vwpartsoutlet.com/oem-p...ar-3d0411305h/?c=aT05MjM1MzUwNSZyPWxheWVyXzE=


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Stephan, I guess I was too busy writing the last post to see you didn't need my help.

-Eric


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

Couldn't hurt to have the extra info, Eric. Looks like '04 W12 have a different sway bar than V8s, probably a little beefier. 

Btw, anybody want a used sway bar without bushings from my parts car ('04 V8)? I'm about to put it in the recycle but if someone has a use for it they can have it for the cost of shipping.


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## Irish Phaeton (Sep 6, 2010)

Hi all
while this may not be totally relevant to this thread, it might be a benefit to a reader someday.

I have been unhappy with road thumps in my 2008 250,000km Phaeton for a while and was struggling to figure out where the problem was. As a separate issue I finally got around to having the lower door trim/ seals replaced (again) . As is usual in damp climates, these swell and distort after about 3 years, so I believe this is the third set on this car.

*What I failed to realise was how important these door trim-seals are to full noise insulation of inside the car from road noise!*

It appears that what I felt was a noise from the suspension was more tyre noise on road bumps, potholes and speed ramps. The replacement of the door seals has restored a level of isolation from road noise that I missed.

So think on this if you have "suspension thumps"

After 2 x P, a total of >>300,000Km & 12 years, I would have thought I would not have been so easily fooled, but such is life.

Hugh
Dublin


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Hi Hugh,
Yes, I fully concur with you. Many times we forget the secondary design aspects of some items in our Phaetons.
My brother has recently replaced the door seals of his 4.2FSI 07 Audi A8 and told me that it made a big difference in terms of wind noise despite the old ones seemed to be in good condition.

Gabriel


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

Hi Stephan,
any update on whether you found the cause of the noise ? 
I've just installed a strut that I reconditioned myself and it has made no difference. So I know whatever is causing the noise (knocking front/right when going over cats-eyes or potholes) is not:

1. the strut
2. the anti-roll (sway) bar drop link
3. the top strut control arms
4. the bottom strut arms
5. the lower door trim seals
6. the subframe bolts
7. the steering outer track rod
8. the CV joint

I'm pretty sure it's not the anti roll bar because I've driven the car with the drop link disconnected and it still does it. 
I haven't yet been able to check the engine or gearbox mounts.

I've never in had a problem like this where I (along with about 10 other mechanics) have not been able to find the cause :banghead:


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

robbie-rocket-pants said:


> Hi Stephan,
> any update on whether you found the cause of the noise ?
> I've just installed a strut that I reconditioned myself and it has made no difference. So I know whatever is causing the noise (knocking front/right when going over cats-eyes or potholes) is not:
> 
> ...



What about subframe bushings?

Also remember that something in the middle or rear could make noise also and sound like it came from the front. Since it's AWD, the movement of the drivetrain could cause noise to travel from a loose or old bushing in the middle or rear to the front. 

In other words, if it happens when you drive over something, the noise could be caused by anything in the drivetrain because it's all connected. 

Those could be transmission mounts, rear subframe bushings, rear differential bushings, rear sway bar bushings, rear drop links, etc...

It could even just be something loose under the Phaeton that has nothing to do with the suspension or drivetrain. 

One infamous clunking noise turned out to be a soda bottle rolling around under the driver's seat. (Old story from the 1950s or 1960s.)

The sound might be less or seemingly non-existant when the rear tire goes over the same bump because it's behind and farther from your ears. 

Maybe you could get a GoPro and mount it in various places to see if it can see and hear vibrations when you drive over something. 

Good luck.

-Eric


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

robbie-rocket-pants said:


> Hi Stephan,
> any update on whether you found the cause of the noise ?
> I've just installed a strut that I reconditioned myself and it has made no difference. So I know whatever is causing the noise (knocking front/right when going over cats-eyes or potholes) is not:
> 
> ...


The V8 is not driven much right now so haven't gotten a real chance at troubleshooting so no progress at this time. I've pretty much covered the same things as you and I'm still leaning towards the subframe bushings as the cause for this noise. The reason is that even after the full front suspension rebuilt the car still has some wander to the front end when driving down bad roads with uneven pavement. This makes me think it might not be the motor or transmission mounts, at least in the case of my P. I also didn't replace the steering tie rods yet but I doubt those would make that kind of sound.

I've seriously been thinking to get a Go-Pro to watch the subrame bushings while driving just as Eric suggested. I'm sure that would be interesting. I also know of a tool called ChassisEAR which would come in handy, it's used by mechanics to find chassis noises but it's not cheap ($215+). https://www.amazon.com/STEELMAN-97202-Wireless-ChassisEAR-Diagnostic/dp/B00123J79O


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks Eric & Stephan.
I did invest in a set of ChasisEars, but had no luck with them. They are the wired type, so it would be a bit tricky to get them down to the subframe - but maybe I'll give it a try when it eventually warms up here.
Eric, I know what you're saying about the sound travelling, but the noise ONLY ever occurs when the front right wheel hits something. I agree it could be something else loose. I've checked the steering rack and the wiper motor. Frustratingly I cannot replicate it with the car stationary or when jacked up or on a ramp.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

robbie-rocket-pants said:


> Thanks Eric & Stephan.
> I did invest in a set of ChasisEars, but had no luck with them. They are the wired type, so it would be a bit tricky to get them down to the subframe - but maybe I'll give it a try when it eventually warms up here.
> Eric, I know what you're saying about the sound travelling, but the noise ONLY ever occurs when the front right wheel hits something. I agree it could be something else loose. I've checked the steering rack and the wiper motor. Frustratingly I cannot replicate it with the car stationary or when jacked up or on a ramp.


I'm just spitballing here so forgive me if anything sounds crazy:

It could be something on the unsprung parts like loose brake pads, loose brake duct, loose caliper, wheel bearing, loose CV joint nut, tight nut, but missing a washer, etc.. 

If like most alloy wheels yours have stick-on wheel weights, maybe one weight lost its stickiness but is still attached to the other ones. 

With the TPMS sensors, it could even be something with that one. Maybe a Chunk broke off and makes a Clunk when you go over a Bump.

If it had steel wheels with wheel covers or hubcaps it could be a pebble somebody put in there as a prank. 


The clunk on 7579 is most noticeable if I go down the curb onto the street when I'm leaving the storage facility at slow speeds. The visible bushings look OK when it's been inspected. The mechanic pries on them. 

When I drive 7579 out of the storage facility, I've learned to ease my way out like a turtle sticking its head out to see. I usually have to creep forward to see if any cars are coming anyway.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

My money, after eliminating all the other causes, would be on a ball joint on one of the control arms.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

invisiblewave said:


> My money, after eliminating all the other causes, would be on a ball joint on one of the control arms.


That would certainly make the most sense but I replaced the complete control arms, not just the bushings, with quality TRW (OE) parts and the noise did not change after the front suspension rebuilt.


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

Same here


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

And my Phaetons (and all of my registered cars) have the ball joints checked for the annual safety inspection. They use a pry bar to see if they can deflect them. 

Next year the safety inspection in Utah is going away. I wish the emissions inspection would go away instead.

-Eric


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

The pry-bar test isn't definitive for noisy ball joints. I had a clunky one on the 944 which was fine if you pried it, it went away as soon as I swapped out the control arm.

While I'm under the car AGAIN later this evening, I'll take a look at the suspension parts which, with half the engine components off on one side, are very visible! I did take a fairly close look at the sway bar mount bushings and they looked ok, but if you've checked/swapped everything else, I'd look at bolt tightness, particularly the 8 (I think) bolts which are loosened to do an alignment, and also the sway bar mounting bolts if the sway bar has ever been off.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I took a good look around under the car last night. The only thing I could see that hasn't already been mentioned, other than loose bolts, are the sway bar bushings. Mine look ok, but they've probably had an easy life climate-wise. I'd also check the bolts on the sway bar, they have to be at least loosened for most jobs underneath.


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks for looking Martin :thumbup:


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

No problem, mine's been 2 feet in the air for 6 days now.....


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

I'm sorry to keep going on about this, but the knocking noise is driving me demented !

I'm (almost) convinced now that it is something to do with the front subframe bushings (bushes). I have checked on the bolt tightness a few times in the past, but maybe there was no movement because of the way I had lifted the car i.e with jacks (& axle stands) on the bottom of the suspension and body on one side only, or by driving the front wheels up onto ramps. 

I'm thinking now that if I just jack the car with the body on both sides and let the front wheels and suspension "dangle" then I may be able to push up and down on the front subframe to check for movement. 

I saw that the bushings are really expensive but there seem to be quite a few used subframes for sale for little money. I've never had to replace a subframe before on a car, so could anyone give me advice on the process required ? (I imagine it's quite difficult )


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Ouch! Someone just posted a link to the workshop manual download, if you can't get it from there, shoot me a pm and I'll send it to you. My guess is you'll need to support the engine from above, which is likely to be the most difficult part.

I installed the $50 Meyle drop links last week, so far so good.


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

I haven't solved the knocking noise on my '05 V8 either and it's really annoying. I also considered the subframe bushings and even though they looked slightly cracked I decided against replacing those at this point. I have a suspicion that one or both of the front tie rod ends are the cause. I have ordered the tie rod ends (inner & outer just to be sure) and will replace those soon.

If you do end up dropping the subframe you shouldn't have to support the engine as the motor mounts are bolted to a separate cross bar just ahead of the subframe. It actually seems pretty straight forward if you have access to a lift.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

That makes sense, because the whole subframe is moved for camber adjustment.


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks guys. 
I've got the maintenance manual now (thanks kicku and Wiken). So hopefully I'll get under the car when Spring arrives.


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## kicku (Apr 8, 2018)

Pleased to help all of you.

I have too this clunk same on RH front. Checked all bushinghs, links, tie rod, end tie rod...everything seems to be ok.
My guess it's the bearing mounted on the top of the shock absorber. Well, really, it's not a bearing, seems more a strut support.
Searched all way on the entire internet but did not find anything. It came always already mounted on the strut.
Anyone of you have any idea where could be possible to buy it?


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

kicku said:


> Pleased to help all of you.
> 
> I have too this clunk same on RH front. Checked all bushinghs, links, tie rod, end tie rod...everything seems to be ok.
> My guess it's the bearing mounted on the top of the shock absorber. Well, really, it's not a bearing, seems more a strut support.
> ...


Is it #5?:

https://volkswagen.7zap.com/en/rdw/phaeton/phae/2005-258/4/411-411000/

I went to eBay Italy and searched for "VW Phaeton Strut Bracket" then I got the part number 4E0412383D.

Then I searched eBay Italy again for "4E0412383D" and this was the best looking one.:

https://www.ebay.it/itm/Querlenker-...715828?hash=item2a3da2f3b4:g:PaIAAOxyx0JThKLD

This one also looks nice:

https://www.ebay.it/itm/Bentley-Con...943695?hash=item4af7247d8f:g:YJUAAOSwKPNTzNee

I didn't see any new ones on eBay. 

This is what VWOA wants for it:

https://parts.vw.com/p/Suspension-C...BRACKET--Front-Upper/48307607/4E0412383D.html

Here is what my favorite VW online seller wants:

https://www.vwpartsoutlet.com/oem-p...ldG9uJnk9MjAwNSZ0PXcxMiZlPTYtMGwtdzEyLWdhcw==

I could not find it cheaper online in the U.S. 

You would have to pay for shipping. VW parts Outlet might give you a deal because they probably have to get it from Germany anyway. 

You might be able to find a better price on an Italian VW parts website. Just search for "4E0412383D"


Or do you mean the upper strut bearing as in this VW MK1 example?:

https://www.ebay.it/itm/Front-Strut...282584?hash=item3610fd7f18:g:mS8AAOSw241Yg7EA

This auction says it will fit the VW Phaeton but it's just the "cushion":

https://www.ebay.it/itm/2x-10874-FE...haeton&hash=item3f73c2de0f:g:scIAAOSwopRYffsG

I also searched for Bentley, Touareg, Audi A8 with no luck. No strut bearings for them either.

Most of the upper strut bearings I did find are 3 bolt. 

I even tried searching for Rolls-Royce because they should have 4 bolt strut bearings but got no hits either. 


You might be out of luck. Maybe Rebuildmastertech would sell you one. They must have a source for them. 



Good luck.

-Eric


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

A thought just occurred to me. Conventional struts don't come with the upper strut bearings but it's recommended to replace them at the same time. If you replace the struts on a 1975 VW Golf, you normally replace the strut bearings at the same time but have to buy them separately. 

The Phaeton struts already come with the upper strut bearings so you don't have to buy them separately. 

The manufacturers probably assume the strut is worn out when the bearing is worn out.

-Eric


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## kicku (Apr 8, 2018)

Thank you for take time to search on internet.

It's not the upper metal bracket, nor the bearing like the generic one from the golf's.
Seems to be a simply support.
Is the metal bracket with 4 bolts who's part of the shock absorber.
As you can see on this image, on the top of the cushion there is a seat for that metal bracket.

www.ebay.it/itm/252815414588




The support which i am looking for it appears on the complet shock absorber, on the top.



My luck here in Italy because of small spaces, small streets, the Phaeton it's not a high requested car, that's why the parts have a so low quotation.


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## kicku (Apr 8, 2018)

Yes, it make sense assuming that upper support needs change together with the shock absorber but it's very expensive to change entire shock absorber because of 5euro rubber piece, as in my case.
That's why i am looking for just that piece with 4 bolts on it. It's fixed with a big nut on the head.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Yes, it mounts there and a rubber bushing is pressed or molded into the support. It's shown in post #42 by Taz:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6081079-Phaeton-Air-suspension-Hard/page2&highlight=strut

VW calls it a Strut Support Bearing as shown in the SSP page posted by Robbie in post #47 of the same thread.

The picture's a bit larger in the SSP itself on page 37:

http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_275_d1.pdf

I would contact Rebuildmastertech and see if they could sell you a new Phaeton front Strut Support Bearing. I think that's your best option. 

http://www.rebuildmastertech.com/

Either that or the Chinese company Taz bought the bags from. 

-Eric


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

Mystery solved 

*IT WAS THE STRUT !!!*

After three years of searching, looking, listening, prying, visits to umpteen garages, changing of all suspension arms & drop link bushes & endless strut removing, refurbishing and general hair-pulling I decided to buy a new Chinese full strut. 
And now my life is clonk-free. I feel like I have a new car 

So the moral of the story is - if you have a metallic knocking / clunking noise from the front suspension, firstly have a good look at all the arms, rubbers and bushes but if there is nothing obviously wrong it could well be the strut.

I don't know exactly what is wrong with the strut but I think it must be inside the damper. Perhaps a leak of oil or lack of gas pressure causes it or perhaps a part of the internals has simply broken off. I think the danger with buying a re-conditioned strut is that it might contain a used part with this problem. (I must have been unlucky and had two of these used dodgy dampers in my trials ). 

The duff struts look and feel "good" both off and on the car (until driven). They do not show any fault codes. They will not clunk with any form of human prying or movement of the suspension when the car is static. The only time you will get it to do it is to drive over a small bump / pothole.

I have a love / hate relationship with this car. At the moment I'm in love. :heart:


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

robbie-rocket-pants said:


> Mystery solved
> 
> *IT WAS THE STRUT !!!*
> 
> ...


Cool! 

If I might ask, what brand are they? Are they on eBay?

So the duff struts were reconditioned struts?


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## robbie-rocket-pants (Mar 25, 2012)

Hi Eric. 

The new strut I bought was this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Air-Suspension-Shock-Absorber-For-2004-06-VW-Phaeton-V8-Front-Right-3D0-616-040/253817499278?epid=908788706&hash=item3b18b3ae8e:g:daEAAOSw6zNbji4H
It looks very well made, but time will tell.

The factory original strut started to fail (clunk) after about 4 years. It may have been caused by an imbalanced wheel that I ran for a few months (I tried having the wheel balanced a few times but it turned out to be the tyre).

To summarise:
I changed the drop link bushes. No change.
I took the oem strut to a so-called specialist (Air Dominance) who did "something" to it but that made no difference. I took it back to them twice and they put another (used) air bag and top mount on it, which made no difference. I changed all suspension arms and the steering link. No difference.
I bought a complete used strut and put a new air bag on it, minor improvement. Bag burst after 1 year.
I put a new air bag on the original strut. Lots of clunking.
I bought the brand new Chinese strut. Fixed.

During the above I used Chasis Ears and took it to at least 7 independant garages and one main dealer to see if they could identify where the noise was coming from. NONE could find it. 
I've spent lots of money and lots of time and research on this mystery. Thank you to everyone on this fantastic forum who tried to help me. :thumbup:


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

robbie-rocket-pants said:


> Hi Eric.
> 
> The new strut I bought was this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Air-Suspension-Shock-Absorber-For-2004-06-VW-Phaeton-V8-Front-Right-3D0-616-040/253817499278?epid=908788706&hash=item3b18b3ae8e:g:daEAAOSw6zNbji4H
> It looks very well made, but time will tell.
> ...


Thanks, Robbie. I'll copy the auction number and see if the U.S. eBay site has it as well. 

-Eric


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> Thanks, Robbie. I'll copy the auction number and see if the U.S. eBay site has it as well.
> 
> -Eric


Hey 253817499278 is the item number and it is on the U.S. eBay site but they list the price as "GBP 365.00" "Approximately US $477.24".

-Eric


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