# Brute Connecting Rod Install PLUS PIC thread w/ Extras



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Hello All. We were recently given the opportunity to perform our standard Brute rifle drilled rod connecting rod install that deviated a bit from our run-of-the-mill standard installation. Bob G. (aka rracerguy717) dropped off his clean and purposeful GLI equipped w/ APR's Stg 3 setup. Although I have my biases , its a very nice setup which we were more then happy to be allowed to enhance it a bit more... This was being documented in our Brute Install ad thread, but since I loathe throwing ads at you guys, I figure that starting a little picture thread as a bit more fun... Enjoy.

Head off...


















Cylinders Honed for new piston rings










Stock pistons/rods out










Brute H-beam Drilled Rods w/ Custom Tool Steel Pins










Here is a little weight comparison b/w the stock chromoly pins and the tool steel. While being stronger, they are also lighter which aids in keeping the bearings happy

Stocker









Upgrade Tool Steel









Assembled Rods Pistons w/ Custom Pins



















To be continued because of mishap found on Cyl #2


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## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

[email protected] said:


>


ouch. i may just take JC's advise and get new pistons. i am debating what compression and bore.

will you guys use a set of aftermarket pistons or just another oem for the busted one?


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi said:


> ouch. i may just take JC's advise and get new pistons. i am debating what compression and bore.
> 
> will you guys use a set of aftermarket pistons or just another oem for the busted one?


My goal in the end is 400Awhp if I was looking for 500+whp I would have bored it and fitted with forged pistons , probably had another engine done and just swapped it out. That's gonna be a bigger turbo running high boost and rpm. I'm looking for flat tq curve 2500/3000-7000 D D. Bob . G


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

how did the bearings look? any unusual wear?


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

Krieger said:


> how did the bearings look? any unusual wear?


I hant seen things first hand and Arnold didnt say any thing bad about the bearing but from these pic's below the 3 left stock rods still have the old bearing in place and they look flawless from the pic's.Maybe Arnold could chime in about them  Bob.G



[email protected] said:


> Stock pistons/rods out


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

I saw the top bearings, wanted to find out if the bottoms where just as pristine... if so, the fuel dilution we have is obviously not hurting our bearings... and thats great.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

Krieger said:


> I saw the top bearings, wanted to find out if the bottoms where just as pristine... if so, the fuel dilution we have is obviously not hurting our bearings... and thats great.


Just got off the phone with Arnold about afew other things in the works and I asked him about the bearing, he said they showed "normal wear" just a little around the oil hole on the bottom .

That shows what a great job APR did with the Software I ran the 100 octane tune for 25K+ miles with 93 in the tank with w/m misting just water 1/2 of that time then prestone ww fluid .

That was on those stock rods .:thumbup: Bob.G


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Ok, here goes some limited info I can provide today as the pistons didnt come in.

Here are the top bearings and bottom. All in all, not too bad. There is some evidence of runout which could be the result of some fuel dilution. As you can also see, there is particle damage to a couple.










Here are pics of what will fasten the head (ARP's), new oem rings and coated bearings 










And we will lower the comp just a touch


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## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

where did you source the rings from?

i wasnt able to find an online source in english, LOL.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

They came from the dealership. Just ordered them in as was necessary.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi said:


> where did you source the rings from?
> 
> i wasnt able to find an online source in english, LOL.


Your best bet for price and quick service is [email protected] but if you have to buy it online 

ECS has them there not cheap even directly from the dealer you need to take out the dash between the part # . Here is the link  Bob.G

http://www.ecstuning.com/Search_VW/06d198151b/


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

thats not too bad, especially for an engine that was putting out significantly more power than stuff, has fuel dilution issues, and shears oil like no tomorrow.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

Krieger said:


> thats not too bad, especially for an engine that was putting out significantly more power than stuff, has fuel dilution issues, and shears oil like no tomorrow.


Hopefully the ACL coated bearing will help against wear with future fuel dilution . Bob.G


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## axthomson (Jul 8, 2006)

How much do you guys charge for this work?


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

axthomson said:


> How much do you guys charge for this work?


Here Pag parts thread as he is running and install pkg pricing in link below

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4961172-**Brute-Connecting-Rod-Installation-Special**


But of course im having alot of extra's work being done at extra charge . Bob.G


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## [email protected] (Jan 6, 2006)

From this pic that manifold looks like it could use some port matching. 

Looking forward to the end result. opcorn:


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> From this pic that manifold looks like it could use some port matching.
> 
> Looking forward to the end result. opcorn:


It actually looks like the manifold is not sitting down far enough because the bottom of the port looks like the sealing very very high. This was one of the first manifolds built for this Stage 3 APR kit. Arnold could give the stop on the bottom a quick grind to have it sit alittle lower .  Bob.G


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

you can tell where the pressure and heat build up in that mani. look at the discoloration.

you going to spray the mani to keep the heat in?


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

Krieger said:


> you can tell where the pressure and heat build up in that mani. look at the discoloration.
> 
> you going to spray the mani to keep the heat in?


The Manifold not coming off this time , plus thats incone so im not sure how welll it would stick to it . 

The Turbo config upgrade will be the next phase in the spring so it clears the AWD TDI gear box :what: . 
Keeping the smaller 2871 just free up with a better flowing exhaust to keep EGT down and upgrade the comp with lighter wheel to spool up quicker. 

This with a taller gearing you will be in boost faster , longer with very flat tq curve and lots area under the curve. Bob.G


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Pistons came in today a little later in the day. But we managed to get it all in and buttoning up tomorrow...


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

how'd the oil pickup screen and stuff look like? someone posted a while ago that they had seen a 2.0t with serious sludge issues and debris on the screen.

im so jealous. :laugh:


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Pick up screen is as clean as a whistle. Only thing sludgy are the intake ports which I'll be soaking tomorrow before fitting the head...


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Pistons came in today a little later in the day. But we managed to get it all in and buttoning up tomorrow...


Looks good Arnold :thumbup: 

I should see you soon LMK when its ready  Bob.G


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Buttoned it all up. Double checked it all. Primed the oil system and started it. Not incredibly exciting and my video commentation is nothing to write home about but will just let the engine do all the talking


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Buttoned it all up. Double checked it all. Primed the oil system and started it. Not incredibly exciting and my video commentation is nothing to write home about but will just let the engine do all the talking


Thanks Arnold Ill call you later this afternoon to arrange P/U, it sounds great !!!! Bob.G


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

how do you prime the oil system?

it sucks that your bone dry valve train makes less noise than mine after an oil change. :banghead: metal on metal for 3-5 seconds ftl.

sounds good.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Well, you can pull the fuel pump fuse or relay I suppose. We had already had several things apart, so we cranked it w/o some connectors connected.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

rracerguy717 said:


> Thanks Arnold Ill call you later this afternoon to arrange P/U, it sounds great !!!! Bob.G


Just p/u the car from Arnold and its running flawless so far with 75 miles

The APR Stage 3 pump gas 93 tune is loving the drop in c/r the low end power is as strong as my 100 octane tune but just dosnt have the top end. 

When I have the motor broken in again ill be doing some APR 100 octane testing , im hoping for postive results based on how the 93 tune feels now . 

I want to again thank Arnold for all his hard work and thinking outside of the box without breaking my check book LOL .  Bob.G


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## loudgli (Aug 3, 2005)

You didn't do any dyno runs before did you Bob?

Id just be curious to see before and after. Not that it would be a ton but would be interesting to see.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

loudgli said:


> You didn't do any dyno runs before did you Bob?
> 
> Id just be curious to see before and after. Not that it would be a ton but would be interesting to see.


That would have been great , but from the the feel its prob like 20-30 wtq guessing around 2 degree more timing down low and mid-range. When I get some time ill do some timing logs that will confirm things. Bob. Gl


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## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

rracerguy717 said:


> That would have been great , but from the the feel its prob like 20-30 wtq guessing around 2 degree more timing down low and mid-range. When I get some time ill do some timing logs that will confirm things. Bob. Gl












So this made that much of difference....thats awesome. Looks like you have your car in great hands over at pagparts. Sold work :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Well, these motors are somewhat limited when you are talking in terms of boost/pump gas/timing scenarios. Decreasing the static comp helps increase knock/det thresholds that would pull timing even w/ moderate turbo upgrades. The theory is to not go too far and effect low end torque, but yielding when increasing boost and maintaining timing while keeping cyl pressures and temps in check.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

QUOTE=saba;67484588]

So this made that much of difference....thats awesome. Looks like you have your car in great hands over at pagparts. Sold work :thumbup:[/QUOTE]. Yes Arnold has been great to work with , he listens to you and help you work toward your goals , espec as he caters to the custom BT crowd. :thumbup: Bob.G


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

sabba said:


> So this made that much of difference....thats awesome. Looks like you have your car in great hands over at pagparts. Sold work :thumbup:


Or maybe it had to do with cyl #2 having restored compression?


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

crew219 said:


> Or maybe it had to do with cyl #2 having restored compression?


I'm sure it deff helped some and also fresh rings in all 4 cyl. But lowering the static compression will tahe the dynamic compression even lower. If you lower the compression your responce should be less in theory, but that's just the oppisite with even more reponce. The high C/R of the FSI dosnt allow you to. Be aggressive on the PUMP. GAS tune and holds these motors back. That's why vag. Dropped the c/r in the S3 FSI engine and the TSI engine. This one of many upgrades ill be doing in the future , there will be plenty of options for people wanting to upgrade there FSI. Bob. G .


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

There wasnt much evidence of lost compression in cyl 2. Car did not smoke or run erratically. It was a hairline crack horizontal to the ring lands and buffered by the rings and the top comp ring and lower oil scraper, it wasnt going anywhere for a little while. I would say that bob brought it in at the right time however. But as far as compression, again, no noticeable damage to the rings at all and I would suspect that leakdown wasnt at all effected, but good try


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> There wasnt much evidence of lost compression in cyl 2. Car did not smoke or run erratically. It was a hairline crack horizontal to the ring lands and buffered by the rings and the top comp ring and lower oil scraper, it wasnt going anywhere for a little while. I would say that bob brought it in at the right time however. But as far as compression, again, no noticeable damage to the rings at all and I would suspect that leakdown wasnt at all effected, but good try


Here a pic the way it came out of the motor , piston still intack . 










Car is running great, strong as ever just been busy at work thanks again Arnold  Bob.G


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## axthomson (Jul 8, 2006)

I need to get this done. Ive been contemplating doing it myself though. Not sure what to do


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

rracerguy717 said:


> Here a pic the way it came out of the motor , piston still intack .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmmm...what does this actually say about the strength of these pistons ??

I mean who knows how many out there might be running similar pistons with a risk of breaking up ??

Should we reconsider the HP rating of OEM pistons possibly ?


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

GolfRS said:


> Hmmm...what does this actually say about the strength of these pistons ??
> 
> I mean who knows how many out there might be running similar pistons with a risk of breaking up ??
> 
> Should we reconsider the HP rating of OEM pistons possibly ?


Looking at the stock pistons you can tell they are very robust BUT they are CAST with that comes brittle , thats why the Lower C/R gasket to help lower peek cylinder pressure a bit without it effecting overall performance. I must say there ZERO driveablity issue its done nothing but compliment the APR software. 

I should have 1K miles on the engine next week and have the time to start taking logs to get data to confirm what the "seat of the pants feel" is telling me

The 100 octane tune should be fun im curious to see how much it helps lowering knock value and how well the ECU adapts to the more favorable conditions of the lower c /r. Bob.G


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Thanks for the update bob, glad its working out nicely.

As for the strength of the pistons, this is the first time I've seen this and we've opened up quite a few. Its prob just a mishap w/ the tune or might have been some debris/machining/inclusion damage in the piston. Many high hp pulls (500whp) on the dyno and several 11 sec runs for 3 yrs of daily driving on our GT30 kit and there were no problems to report as far as the pistons. What is more disturbing is the particle damage on the rod bearings which I attribute to cam folllower/cam material as it wears.


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## mikeg6045 (Apr 14, 2010)

:thumbup: for this thread.

looking good Bob.

nice to know Pag is pretty local to me as well.


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## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks for the update bob, glad its working out nicely.
> 
> As for the strength of the pistons, this is the first time I've seen this and we've opened up quite a few. Its prob just a mishap w/ the tune or might have been some debris/machining/inclusion damage in the piston. Many high hp pulls (500whp) on the dyno and several 11 sec runs for 3 yrs of daily driving on our GT30 kit and there were no problems to report as far as the pistons. What is more disturbing is the particle damage on the rod bearings which I attribute to cam folllower/cam material as it wears.


I agree. I used to find tons of sediments in my oil. So I started to use the ECS magnetic drain plug and it catches all the crap off of the follower.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi said:


> I agree. I used to find tons of sediments in my oil. So I started to use the ECS magnetic drain plug and it catches all the crap off of the follower.


Yeah I'm just waiting for a set of Cat Cams there gonna get a H2 Sport roller follower kit and be done with VAG follower mess. LOL


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi said:


> I agree. I used to find tons of sediments in my oil. So I started to use the ECS magnetic drain plug and it catches all the crap off of the follower.


Got my ECS drain plug magnetic drain plug friday and did a fresh oil and filter change with a new 5-40 specific DI oil hopefully it helps cut down on future maintance with valve deposits. 

Everything looked good and had very little (1 oz of oil/fuel/ water mix) in my BSH catch can,
so the rings are seated in well ready for some punishment  Bob.G


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

So what did you guys do, use a custom gasket ?

And what C/R do you recon you are running at the moment ?


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

thought he mentioned 9.5:1


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

Krieger said:


> thought he mentioned 9.5:1


Right around 1 full point off factory compression maybe a hair less is what Arnold calculated , he may chim in to confirm. 

My pump gas APR stage 3 SW is loving it . Bob.G


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

rracerguy717 said:


> Right around 1 full point off factory compression maybe a hair less is what Arnold calculated , he may chim in to confirm.
> 
> My pump gas APR stage 3 SW is loving it . Bob.G


So what gasket did you use ?


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

GolfRS said:


> So what gasket did you use ?


Arnold would know he sourced all the parts , install at his new shop. 

I choose to test it when he mentioned that he had one , so I guess only time will tell how well it holds up and the performance gains as I move foward with more supporting mods .So far so good . Bob.G


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

rracerguy717 said:


> Arnold would know he sourced all the parts , install at his new shop.
> 
> I choose to test it when he mentioned that he had one , so I guess only time will tell how well it holds up and the performance gains as I move foward with more supporting mods .So far so good . Bob.G


You will see A LOT more difference if you adjust the software.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

GolfRS said:


> You will see A LOT more difference if you adjust the software.


Yep for sure SW adjustments will make a BIG difference . 

I need to get some base line dyno numbers and logs before I do anymore mods so I know where im at this point and then go from there. Bob.G


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

***Little update *** 34 degree's this morning. Car fired up great with the lower C/R + APR Stage 3 sw + RS 4 Injectors. So far the lower C/R has not hurt drivablity and has only helped the perfomance. I'm gonna see if I can get some logs done today when the temp gets around 60 later today . Bob G*


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## $GTI07$ (Feb 29, 2008)

whats the compres ratio you have now and what pistons you went with?


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

$GTI07$ said:


> whats the compres ratio you have now and what pistons you went with?


 Read the thread its all there or talk to Arnold He sourced them  Bob.G


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## $GTI07$ (Feb 29, 2008)

If im not wrong in the thread it does not say thew final ratio unless i miss read something. 




rracerguy717 said:


> Read the thread its all there or talk to Arnold He sourced them  Bob.G


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

$GTI4.96 € (07$) said:


> If im not wrong in the thread it does not say thew final ratio unless i miss read something.


 You did, and i asked also, so its 9.5:1


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## $GTI07$ (Feb 29, 2008)

Thanks for the info thats all i need it too know.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

rracerguy717 said:


> ***Little update *** 34 degree's this morning. Car fired up great with the lower C/R + APR Stage 3 sw + RS 4 Injectors. So far the lower C/R has not hurt drivablity and has only helped the perfomance. I'm gonna see if I can get some logs done today when the temp gets around 60 later today . Bob G*


 Took a few screen shots of my logs looks like the APR Stage 3 s.w working well with lower c/r . 

I suspected some type of fueling issue and thats why I did logs and it confirms it with the low actual rail pressure and high IDC . 

Im thinking its a weak/worn STOCK / FACTORY intank pump seeing my car is a early build 12/05 and its @ 56K now and 45K as APR Stage 3 . Doing some research for a better OEM intank solution. 

Im very happy with the results of the lower c/r , as soon as I can get the Actual HPFP close to the request HPFP Ill head to the dyno with full logs.  Bob.G 

All the logs where done with shell 93 in the tank ,NO W/M 


This First log was 93 tune and was the first log @ 50 degrees ambient 











This Second log was 100 tune with 93 in the tank I just switch to the tune and it didnt have time to adapt hence the timing pull this was logged @55 ambient. 











This Third log was 100 tune with 93 in the tank after driving about 10 miles to adapt .


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Looking good Bob :thumbup:


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Looking good Bob :thumbup:


 Yes sir , Should make good power after I track down the fueling issue .  Bob.G


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## axthomson (Jul 8, 2006)

intank pump and rs4 valve?


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

axthomson said:


> intank pump and rs4 valve?


 yep thats where im gonna start. Bob.G


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## EL_3grab (Mar 25, 2006)

rracerguy717 said:


> yep thats where im gonna start. Bob.G


 RS4 valve and the latest revision in-tank FP (1K0 919 051 CL) 

and all fuel related problems despaired, even @ extreme temp. 40-50C outside :thumbup:


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## loudgli (Aug 3, 2005)

Bob, did you log low pressure fueling? 

I didn't see it from your screen captures. 

I was seeing high IDC and low "low pressure" fuel pressure. 

APR low pressure upgrade fixed that all up. 

I didn't really notice any difference from the RS4 valve.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

loudgli said:


> Bob, did you log low pressure fueling?


 Im gonna do more logs over weekend havnt had time with work getting busy . Bob.G


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## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)




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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

Ehhhmm...

What are we looking at here exactly ?

There are no subtitles....


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

GolfRS said:


> Ehhhmm...
> 
> What are we looking at here exactly ?
> 
> There are no subtitles....


Like the O.P. Title . 

He installing BRUTE H Beam Drop in rods for factory pistons,.

Looks like he scuff up the cyl walls with a quick hone for fresh surface for new set of rings and im sure with his higher power goals he will be going with a set of coated rod bearing .  Bob.

I wish him luck with his project maybe we can get a Dyno Day and get some numbers for all different Hardware and Software choices . Bob.G


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## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

what he said^

thanks bob.

i figured the pics were self explanatory.


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## mikeg6045 (Apr 14, 2010)

CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi said:


> what he said^
> 
> thanks bob.
> 
> i figured the pics were self explanatory.


they were :thumbup:


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)




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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

**** Little update**** sorry for the ****ty screen shot pic's there was alot glare

Had time today and installed the NEW LPFP and as you can see the HPFP rail pressure is keeping close to request HPFP rail pressure so my suspect of a weak Intank Pump was on target. 










My only concern now is that cyl # 2 higher knock value ( same # 2 cyl that had the crack piston )My suspect is that maybe a weak/poor performing RS4 injector in the #2 cyl .
Im gonna try next weekends little project is to install the RS4 HPFP limiting valve and while I have the intake manifold off im gonna swap the #2 cyl RS4 injector to another cyl and see if the higher knock value moves there to confirm my suspect of a bad injector .

BTW the new intank pump brought the performance back, faster cold starts, about 200 rpm higher idle, no dips in rpm at idle and overall great upgrade for people have any of these issue or with fueling issues.

Here are some other pic's of the new intank pump and old intank pump. 

* OLD LPFP* 









* NEW LPFP * BTW is SPRING loaded you can see the spring in the photo 
















[/IMG]/i189.photobucket.com/albums/z14/turboguy717/NewintankLPFP2.jpg[/IMG]


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## loudgli (Aug 3, 2005)

Bob, 

1. Your screen shots suck  Why dont you get us an actual log? Something I can actually read :laugh:
2. Why did you use a new lp pump assy? I just swapped everything over on mine.
I assume its the apr upgrade? or...?
3. You dont have to take the manifold off to change out that valve. I can understand if you wanna swap injectors but , yeah. 

Nice to see it solved some of your issues.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

loudgli said:


> Bob,
> 
> 1. Your screen shots suck  Why dont you get us an actual log? Something I can actually read :laugh:
> 2. Why did you use a new lp pump assy? I just swapped everything over on mine.
> ...


1. My laptop computer that I use for the car/ logs is screwed up so untill I get it fixed its Screen shots 
2. Because I buy My parts from Jeff( jc ) @ Douglas and the price and service cant be beat . Plus this is OEM not moded pump so the reliablity is going to be better and its all new design pump and housing .
3. I know you could prob get underneath without removing it but I can get it off fast enough so its easier to get at.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

rracerguy717 said:


> My only concern now is that cyl # 2 higher knock value ( same # 2 cyl that had the crack piston )My suspect is that maybe a weak/poor performing RS4 injector in the #2 cyl .


Interesting. Is that CYL always more unhappy than the rest? How's it look on the 93 file w/o w/m?


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Interesting. Is that CYL always more unhappy than the rest? How's it look on the 93 file w/o w/m?


Thats 100 octane program , Shell 93 in the tank NO W/M just about 1 point lower compression . 

I didnt log 93 after the new pump yet  Bob.G

edit to add 

It dosnt pull ANY TIMING unless im @ max engine load 191% and it pulls only for a split second spike then back to ZERO timing pull all the way to rev limiter in any gear , sometimes just a blip at-2 even if I lug it 6 gear at low RPM


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

rracerguy717 said:


> Thats 100 octane program , Shell 93 in the tank NO W/M just about 1 point lower compression .
> 
> I didnt log 93 after the new pump yet  Bob.G
> 
> ...


I'm guessing you already know that you aren't pulling timing cause you are also making less power with the same software right ??

By decreasing compression you have actually decreased the energy produced during burn, and you now have to adjust boost and timing to compensate.

Dropping compression isn't always the best way to go.
It has been my view on the matter from the start..


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

rracerguy717 said:


> Thats 100 octane program , Shell 93 in the tank NO W/M just about 1 point lower compression .
> 
> I didnt log 93 after the new pump yet  Bob.G
> 
> ...


Ughhh.... I'm gunna have a look at that file on monday. That doesn't sound right at all. 93 on the 100 octane tune should equal instant disaster.


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## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Ughhh.... I'm gunna have a look at that file on monday. That doesn't sound right at all. 93 on the 100 octane tune should equal instant disaster.



A change of ~3 degrees of timing b/n files is enough to make things go...BOOM! Or turn disastrous?

Kinda makes me want to go find out!!


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

So pulling timing somehow equates to power... hmmm... Lets pretend that VW engineers intended the ultra high comp was a good idea on engines that doubled the power stock output on regular pump gas.. Perhaps the decision to lower the comp and strengthen internals on the S3 and TFSI models was an oversight on their part. Yes, obviously, tunes will need to be altered, but bob's initial impressions on how the car is behaving is not imagined.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> So pulling timing somehow equates to power... hmmm... Lets pretend that VW engineers intended the ultra high comp was a good idea on engines that doubled the power stock output on regular pump gas.. Perhaps the decision to lower the comp and strengthen internals on the S3 and TFSI models was an oversight on their part. Yes, obviously, tunes will need to be altered, but bob's initial impressions on how the car is behaving is not imagined.


 Well VW does a LOT of things but those are mainly for reliability and not performance reasons.

Lowering the compression does nothing to hurt the 265 bhp the engine makes stock, but fuel aside,
a higher compression engine makes more power for the same boost.Strengthening the internals is also done for reliability reasons, although as you and all of us have already seen, stock BPY internals are holding up fine up to the 330 whp of the K04 let along the stock 265 bhp.Would these rods last the 200.000k VW makes engines for ?
Don't know, but most of us would have either sold or rebuild the car by then so it's an irrelevant question.

So no, pulling timing doesn't make power..no, but doing 20 degrees on 9.5:1 isn't the same as doing 20 degrees 10.5:1.To compensate you'd have to add timing and increase boost, which may or may not be possible on your current hardware.Yeah if you are on a GT30, you just turn your "boost knob"..but on a K04 you are already within your turbo's efficiency as it is on stock internals.Squeezing every last bit out of it isn't gonna do that poor turbo any good.

Bottom line, dropping compression is good if you are planing to change hardware or are using poor quality gas and your ECU is pulling timing, but then again if it is, then you should probably consider a change of fuel or another tune.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

GolfRS said:


> Well VW does a LOT of things but those are mainly for reliability and not performance reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Lowering the knock threshold alittle is a good thing with these sensitive ECU IMO espec if your gonna run pump gas on the street. If you keep the ECU happy with lower knock values its going to take full advantage of your tune. I didn't put upgraded rods in the motor for no reason the car ran great for over 1 year daily driving it on 100 oct Stage 3 APR sw . Once I take care of the #2 cyl and figure out why the higher timing pull I'm gonna get a baseline power figure so we can track the new mods we have planned for the car. Will see how much lowering the c/r effects power with no change to the sw once we get to the dyno. . Bob. G


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

rracerguy717 said:


> Lowering the knock threshold alittle is a good thing with these sensitive ECU IMO espec if your gonna run pump gas on the street. If you keep the ECU happy with lower knock values its going to take full advantage of your tune. I didn't put upgraded rods in the motor for no reason the car ran great for over 1 year daily driving it on 100 oct Stage 3 APR sw . Once I take care of the #2 cyl and figure out why the higher timing pull I'm gonna get a baseline power figure so we can track the new mods we have planned for the car. Will see how much lowering the c/r effects power with no change to the sw once we get to the dyno. . Bob. G


 Sounds good.I'm looking forward to the results, since the CR difference is enough to show if it actually
effects power out put on this motor or not.

As for cyl 2, could it be a bad injector ??You also probably have tried swapping coils and plugs, so
this is what is left to check as far as individual cylinder timing pull goes...Oh and if i were you, and since the
engine has been opened, i'd also to a compression test on all cylinders, just to make sure. :thumbup:


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> Well VW does a LOT of things but those are mainly for reliability and not performance reasons.
> 
> Lowering the compression does nothing to hurt the 265 bhp the engine makes stock, but fuel aside,
> a higher compression engine makes more power for the same boost.Strengthening the internals is also done for reliability reasons, although as you and all of us have already seen, stock BPY internals are holding up fine up to the 330 whp of the K04 let along the stock 265 bhp.Would these rods last the 200.000k VW makes engines for ?
> ...


 Yes, and 11:1 engine will, theoretically, make more power then our 10.5:1. Spool up isnt a problem and the 'seat of the pants' feel b/w 10.5:1 and 9.5:1 is negligible. If you feel that at 9.5:1, you'll get away w/ using 'poor quality' gas, I dont know what to tell you. The point is to keep knock thresholds down so you can run a more aggressive tune and keeping combustion temps lower. You're not going to hold 20deg's on 10.5:1 on pump gas w/o crossing your fingers under high load conditions. Thats the point. You'll need to raise octane to keep it safe. You'll be far more likely to hold timing on a lower compression which will make more power w/ the proper tune/boost. You WANT to be able to utilize more boost and timing and feel safer doing so. My only concern w/ doing it with a headgasket is altering squish zones, which isnt really a concern as our DI injectors and chamber shape do a good job w/ vaporization. I've been doing this for 2 decades and the same rules apply no matter what you try to do. Ppl get over zealous these days about what they read and not necessarily what needs to be done on a given combination. All I know is that I've seen a broken ring land on bob's car and realize that at certain power levels, on this engine and the way it sits stock, you'll always be flirting...


----------



## loudgli (Aug 3, 2005)

cant wait to get my rods and custom hg ordered this winter from Arnold. then a new tune is in order.


----------



## 18bora. (Aug 18, 2007)

rracerguy717 said:


> Thats 100 octane program , Shell 93 in the tank NO W/M just about 1 point lower compression .
> 
> I didnt log 93 after the new pump yet  Bob.G
> 
> ...


 Bob, 

If I drop my C/R by 3-4 points, do you think I’ll be able to run straight tab water? Imagine how convenient this will be. I can pull the garden hose and fill it up every morning.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

18bora. said:


> Bob,
> 
> If I drop my C/R by 3-4 points, do you think I’ll be able to run straight tab water? Imagine how convenient this will be. I can pull the garden hose and fill it up every morning.


 Hahaha. Your lucky Sam that you don't have a VAG car anymore because you need to jump through hoops to make decent power. Hardware and Software. LOL


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

rracerguy717 said:


> Hahaha. Your lucky Sam that you don't have a VAG car anymore because you need to jump through hoops to make decent power. Hardware and Software. LOL


 Sam is just jealous our tuning concepts dont date back to 1990 . A challenge in life is sometimes a good thing :laugh:


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Sam is just jealous our tuning concepts dont date back to 1990 . A challenge in life is sometimes a * good thing* :laugh:


 "Good thing" for what ? better mental health coverage LOL 


Sam Spent 1hr on the Dyno @Ivy tuning on stock evo 9 stock turbo with bolt ons made 345AWHP and 350AWTQ with a roadcourse consertive tune so who tuning concept gets the job done quick and fast ? Bob.G


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

:thumbup:


----------



## 18bora. (Aug 18, 2007)

[email protected] said:


>


I ran across this thread and remembered your cracked piston. 
http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-en...meth-injection-your-pistons-also-cracked.html



AWD Motorsports said:


> Here is once again another case of Meth Injection FTL.. Its funny how its ALMOST ALWAYS Cyl#1 thats cracked Which is the last cylinder to get Meth.. I have said it before and ill say it again there is NO WAY for each Cylinder to receive an equal amount of meth with a nozzle in the UICP..
> 
> Look at the Carbon Buildup and see its been cracked for Quite some time and the customer had no idea.. Finally while we were tuning it the ring cracked..
> 
> ...


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

Interesting, guess this is a nice campaign for direct port injection!


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Interesting. But thinking this through, it was Cylinder #2. In a centrally located TB, Cyl 2 wouldnt be the cylinder that I would guess to starve for meth. Its not a meth problem that is stated in that thread. It was the ABSENCE of meth which amounts to a fuel distribution problem here under a high state of tune which I dont really see happening here


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Buttoned it all up. Double checked it all. Primed the oil system and started it. Not incredibly exciting and my video commentation is nothing to write home about but will just let the engine do all the talking


Had the car out over the weekend , cold start @29 degrees sounds just like in this video and NO hic-ups car has been running great :thumbup: .
The new intank pump really helps ALOT on cold start cranking time and performance . 

I would recommend anyone in the Tri-state area looking install rods or thnnking about upgrading to BT kit give Arnold a call . Bob.G


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

rracerguy717 said:


> Had the car out over the weekend , cold start @29 degrees sounds just like in this video and NO hic-ups car has been running great :thumbup: .
> The new intank pump really helps ALOT on cold start cranking time and performance .
> 
> I would recommend anyone in the Tri-state area looking install rods or thnnking about upgrading to BT kit give Arnold a call . Bob.G


So you're happy with your APR SIII again? :screwy:


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

crew219 said:


> So you're happy with your APR SIII again? :screwy:


 Dave now that YOU brought it up , after 2+ years of fixing ,paying out of pocket and replacing sub standard APR Stage 3 hardware and parts never received Yes 

The final thing will be to change SW thats coming in the spring once Arnold's in his new shop with dyno so it can be tuned properly. Bob.G


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

rracerguy717 said:


> Dave now that YOU brought it up , after 2+ years of fixing ,paying out of pocket and replacing sub standard APR Stage 3 hardware and parts never received Yes
> 
> The final thing will be to change SW thats coming in the spring once Arnold's in his new shop with dyno so it can be tuned properly. Bob.G


Yes, I'm sure APR SIII cracked your piston and not the 100% water injection you ran on the APR 100 octane file against their advisement. :thumbup:


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## wazzap1101 (May 1, 2009)

crew219 said:


> Yes, I'm sure APR SIII cracked your piston and not the 100% water injection you ran on the APR 100 octane file against their advisement. :thumbup:


:what: 

I was under the impression that heat cracks pistons... Water injections cools intake temps and lowers egt


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

wazzap1101 said:


> :what:
> 
> I was under the impression that heat cracks pistons... Water injections cools intake temps and lowers egt


That's if you're under the assumption that the water injection controller is: metering the spray properly, pump is turning on, nozzle isn't clogged, that the location of the nozzle is close enough to the ports that it actually gets to each cylinder at the appropriate time pre-combustion, and that fine mist of water droplets hasn't condensed to the point where it doesn't mix well with the air/fuel mixture.

....and Bob did this all on 100% water :screwy:


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

crew219 said:


> Yes, I'm sure APR SIII cracked your piston and not the 100% water injection you ran on the APR 100 octane file against their advisement. :thumbup:


Dave Since you brought this up also LOL 

I COULD also argue that the piston got cracked when APR was using my car as test bed when they had NO proven BT FSI injectors but a poorly modded oem ones they where using , I watched Mike drive my car after fresh set where installed @APR during his test drive it came back with one dead cylinder guess what cylinder? mmm funny #2 cyl:what:
I COULD also argue that it happened during APR intial BT tuning because the car never performed near there advertised figures hence the LOW power figures @ 320whp versus Jeff Revo BT tuned 370whp and that was his lowest LOL . BTW that was my highest power figure 
I never posted the others all around 300whp great performance tuning LOL  Bob.G


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

Funny that you would omit this dyno you sent to APR.










Lol.

Not bad for an uncorrected dyno on a "broken" car. :laugh::laugh:


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

rracerguy717 said:


> Dave Since you brought this up also LOL
> 
> I COULD also argue that the piston got cracked when APR was using my car as test bed when they had NO proven BT FSI injectors but a poorly modded oem ones they where using , I watched Mike drive my car after fresh set where installed @APR during his test drive it came back with one dead cylinder guess what cylinder? mmm funny #2 cyl:what:
> I COULD also argue that it happened during APR intial BT tuning because the car never performed near there advertised figures hence the LOW power figures @ 320whp versus Jeff Revo BT tuned 370whp and that was his lowest LOL . BTW that was my highest power figure
> I never posted the others all around 300whp great performance tuning LOL  Bob.G



Then argue it Bob! Your car was "messed up" all along and now it makes sense you never seemed to make the advertised power.

And please, no 3rd gear dynos. Bob, you know better than that. 


Like you said, your car must have been clearly messed up. My buddy had the same software as you and put down what we advertise. 

Thanks for sending me the dyno files a while back for comparing. 












and here is the stage 3 production vs JC's Dyno Beta setup. JC starts way earlier in the RPM band which will really help spool, still, makes the same power all the way till the upper RPM's where we try to keep EGT's a bit lower.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Then argue it Bob! Your car was "messed up" all along and now it makes sense you never seemed to make the advertised power.
> 
> * And please, no 3rd gear dynos. Bob, you know better than that. *
> 
> ...


Arin I told him to try 3rd gear on some of those pulls because we where looking for the * 30-50whp down in power* ( when you compare the SAE correctednumbers ) that was missing and wanted to see if 3rd gear made any difference. This was want i was comparing 

The 350whp CORRECTED graph APR gave me saying it was pwer level its presently tuned and when I went to they dyno this is how it preformed.Then how it performed on a dyno locally .





















Bottom line the car never made the power , this was before ANY W/M was in the picture all on 93 pump gas as tuned from APR . Will see what power it puts down @ the FFE dyno day so we can get a baseline numbers before any new mods and SW change.  Bob.G


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

rracerguy717 said:


> The 350whp CORRECTED graph APR gave me saying it was pwer level its presently tuned
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Bob, here is a direct quote from you when you got the car back in 2007:




rracerguy717 said:


> Raw numbers are 328WHP with 93oct in the tank dyno in 100-106 degree weather 110 % humidty this is UNCORRECTED #'s . Bob.G



Here you are making more than 328whp, uncorrected:













Seems you are not making the same power as everyone else but it sounds like you got it all figured out now. Good luck! :thumbup:


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Sounds like you has/had an issue because your car didn't *dyno anything like other customers *or when it was here. Sounds like you got it all figured out. good luck! :thumbup:


There will be a few other APR Stage 3 FSI @ FFE Dyno Day will just see how "OTHER CUSTOMERS " numbers look .... same Day, same Dyno , same CF , etc with cool winter temps ( 20-30 degrees ) there will be no room for excuses :laugh:. 

There dyno is alittle generous from feed back that others have spoken about , but its going to be nice to compare other BT kits and other BT SW too  Bob.G


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

rracerguy717 said:


> There will be a few other APR Stage 3 FSI @ FFE Dyno Day will just see how "OTHER CUSTOMERS " numbers look .... same Day, same Dyno , same CF , etc with cool winter temps ( 20-30 degrees ) there will be no room for excuses :laugh:.
> 
> There dyno is alittle generous from feed back that others have spoken about , but its going to be nice to compare other BT kits and other BT SW too  Bob.G



all i can say is on two separate occasions i dyno'd my stage 3 A3 on 100oct file running meth/pump gas on a mustang dyno and the results were consistent. 

330/295...consistent but far from APR's numbers. 

Think i dyno'd better on the pump file on a dynojet!


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

QUOTE=sabba;68757118]all i can say is on two separate occasions i dyno'd my stage 3 A3 on 100oct file running meth/pump gas on a mustang dyno and the results were consistent. 

330/295...consistent but far from APR's numbers. 

[/QUOTE]

Im gonna bring a case of tissues for the APR Stage 3 owners LOL. Including myself . I can already see Arin disputing the numbers :laugh:


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

rracerguy717 said:


> Im gonna bring a case of tissues for the APR Stage 3 owners LOL. Including myself . I can already see Arin disputing the numbers :laugh:


Why? Numbers don't tell the whole story. Anyone can make high numbers. That's easy. 99% of stage 3 owners are happy with their car, with the power, with the way it drives, the reliability and so on. We have sold more of these kits around the world than anyone else and the amount of complaints are few and far between. To date we've never received more praise from any other owner than Bob G. This includes car shows, one on one conversations (customers have told us what you say, and you love it outside the forums), forum posts, races, and so on. We've also not received more complaints than anyone other than Bob G, only on the forums, never in person.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Why? Numbers don't tell the whole story. Anyone can make high numbers. That's easy. 99% of stage 3 owners are happy with their car, with the power, with the way it drives, the reliability and so on. We have sold more of these kits around the world than anyone else and the amount of complaints are few and far between. To date we've never received more praise from any other owner than Bob G. .


Hahaha Arin setting power figure bar low already. Power isn't everything BUT when you put figures out there you need to live up to them. This is gonna be a great day to see independent power figures on the same dyno , same day etc no excuses. Arin problem is some people dont come out and talk about there problems in public because they are singled out like me and facts and data are twisted to show otherwise so they keep quiet and either part the car back to stock and sell it and move on. I know bunch , wait maybe I should start my own web forum so ALL those world wide the stage 3 owners can talk and share there expeirence ( good or bad )? Then we can get the REAL feed back. . Bob. G.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

rracerguy717 said:


> Power isn't everything BUT when you put figures out there you need to live up to them.



Bob,

JR, Gregg and Mark Kogen each dynoed their cars back in early 2008 and all hit the same power levels, which were around 350 whp. Please note, I'm rounding *DOWN* to the nearest 10th. 

So lets assume a low 350 whp figure, even though some dynoed higher. 
Lets also assume a low 10% drivetrain loss, even though many believe it should be higher. 

350 WHP / .9 DTL = 388 CHP. 

That's 8 CHP *MORE* than we advertise. 


The following values will get you exactly what we advertise. 

382 WHP with 0% Drivetrain Loss = 382 CHP as Advertised by APR.
378 WHP with 1% Drivetrain Loss = 382 CHP as Advertised by APR.
374 WHP with 2% Drivetrain Loss = 382 CHP as Advertised by APR.
371 WHP with 3% Drivetrain Loss = 382 CHP as Advertised by APR.
367 WHP with 4% Drivetrain Loss = 382 CHP as Advertised by APR.
363 WHP with 5% Drivetrain Loss = 382 CHP as Advertised by APR.
359 WHP with 6% Drivetrain Loss = 382 CHP as Advertised by APR.
355 WHP with 7% Drivetrain Loss = 382 CHP as Advertised by APR.
351 WHP with 8% Drivetrain Loss = 382 CHP as Advertised by APR.
348 WHP with 9% Drivetrain Loss = 382 CHP as Advertised by APR.
344 WHP with 10% Drivetrain Loss = 382 CHP as Advertised by APR.
340 WHP with 11% Drivetrain Loss = 382 CHP as Advertised by APR.
336 WHP with 12% Drivetrain Loss = 382 CHP as Advertised by APR.
332 WHP with 13% Drivetrain Loss = 382 CHP as Advertised by APR.
329 WHP with 14% Drivetrain Loss = 382 CHP as Advertised by APR.
325 WHP with 15% Drivetrain Loss = 382 CHP as Advertised by APR.
321 WHP with 16% Drivetrain Loss = 382 CHP as Advertised by APR.
317 WHP with 17% Drivetrain Loss = 382 CHP as Advertised by APR.
313 WHP with 18% Drivetrain Loss = 382 CHP as Advertised by APR.
309 WHP with 19% Drivetrain Loss = 382 CHP as Advertised by APR.
306 WHP with 20% Drivetrain Loss = 382 CHP as Advertised by APR.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Bob,
> 
> JR, Gregg and Mark Kogen each dynoed their cars back in early 2008 and all hit the same power levels, which were around 350 whp. Please note, I'm rounding *DOWN* to the nearest 10th.
> 
> ...


From what Ive seen thats about what 93 pump with 93 sw should be around 330ish maybe alittle more because FFE dyno shown its alittle generous . Its going to be interesting .
Now is that corrected or uncorrected ?  hahaha Bob.G


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

For your viewing pleasure to break up the tone of this thread....

Enjoy the following video.

Apr car vs a well built giac tuned car. Not sure what an apr stage 3+ car entails but damn....


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Sorry, that's not an APR stage 3+. There's no such thing.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

rracerguy717 said:


> Now is that corrected or uncorrected?


Explane. 

Hot weather or cold weather?
Humid or Dry?
High altitude or low Altitude. 

Saying corrected or uncorrected with no other variables (including what correction type) is pointless.


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## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Sorry, that's not an APR stage 3+. There's no such thing.




I'm trying to find out what exactly was done to this car. But that 3333 car is no joke.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

sabba said:


> I'm trying to find out what exactly was done to this car. But that 3333 car is no joke.


Flux capacitor most probably...

Oh and chewing gun flavor air freshener...


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

sabba said:


> I'm trying to find out what exactly was done to this car. But that 3333 car is no joke.


Im sure this car has similiar spec prob out of the same shop .

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...es-100-200km-h-in-7.9-seconds!&highlight=GIAC


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

http://www.carnews.com/detail/16310

Schrick cams, larger turbo, lower compression, aggressive remap. 

It's obvious why it's faster.

We have an S3 customer getting Stage 4 in Taiwan soon... That would be a nice match.


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> http://www.carnews.com/detail/16310
> 
> Schrick cams, larger turbo, lower compression, *aggressive remap.*, l_ow side fueling_ ....
> 
> ...


yes it would me a nice match...whats being done to the S3. Is it as extensive as the Israel build?

Arin please define an aggressive remap and how this differs to an APR tuned car?

lets find out what was done to this APR car.
The Giac car out spools and pulls on the apr car pretty badly in this video. Its not even close...


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

sabba said:


> yes it would me a nice match...whats being done to the S3. Is it as extensive as the Israel build?
> 
> The Giac car out spools and pulls on the apr car pretty badly in this video. Its not even close...


Thats what 330ish whp versus 400ish whp looks like IMO,  Bob.G

Its all in the tuning thats the same 2871 turbo with a bigger hotside housing .86 hence the 2886

edit to add 

looking at the vid again the way it pulled away ,my bet he pushing some decent higher boost in that tune it would make sense .86 housing , looks like when Sam pulls hard away from my car LOL


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

rracerguy717 said:


> Thats what 330ish whp versus 400ish whp looks like IMO,  Bob.G
> 
> Its all in the tuning thats the same 2871 turbo with a bigger hotside housing .86 hence the 2886


Exactly. 

Sure the head work helps as well.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

sabba said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Sure the head work helps as well.


Nick your making great power now with EPL tuning ,the new turbo prob has a better flowing hotside to help keep the EGT down for the more aggresive tuning . Bob.G


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

rracerguy717 said:


> Nick your making great power now with EPL tuning ,the new turbo prob has a better flowing hotside to help keep the EGT down for the more aggresive tuning . Bob.G


Need to upgrade low pressure fueling. Epl gave me a safe tune.... They hit 420whp on their dyno and ran ran into fueling issues. I'm running around 390 right now.


----------



## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

sabba said:


> Need to upgrade low pressure fueling. Epl gave me a safe tune.... They hit 420whp on their dyno and ran ran into fueling issues. I'm running around 390 right now.


nice!

how many PSI for the 420?


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## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi said:


> nice!
> 
> how many PSI for the 420?


think it was an additional 3 pounds...


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

sabba said:


> yes it would me a nice match...whats being done to the S3. Is it as extensive as the Israel build?


Still in discussion now.




> Arin please define an aggressive remap and how this differs to an APR tuned car?


Higher EGT's. More boost. Leaner AFR. Higher Redline.




> The Giac car out spools and pulls on the apr car pretty badly in this video. Its not even close...


Why wouldn't it? Bigger turbo, more aggressive tune, built bottom end, SHRICK cams, and, according to another thread I read, w/m injection. Our stage 3 kits with cams do the same thing to factory cam stage 3 cars. 

Need I remind anyone of this video? This is before it was even finished tuning. The boost delay between shifts is totally gone now and didn't require DSG software to make that delay go away.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

18bora. said:


> Bob, this \/ is why Sam pulls away from you..hehe..


The Difference is you have * 100WTQ MORE on the whole power band* than my car , plus Shawn Ivey refuses to wear skirt when he tuned  . 

BTW Sams car is on Stock rods , stock rods bolts,stock cam, stock head ,motor never cracked open all on conservetive road race tune .


----------



## HalvieCuw (Mar 20, 2003)

sabba said:


> For your viewing pleasure to break up the tone of this thread....
> 
> Enjoy the following video.
> 
> Apr car vs a well built giac tuned car. Not sure what an apr stage 3+ car entails but damn....


Love this guy's videos. However, most of the GTI results are kind of umm disappointing...

Same GTI that beat the APR stage 3 vs stage 2 335











Considering how much it takes to get to even stage 3. By the time you are at the same level as this GTI you might as well have bought a 335 to begin with...

edit: seems that the stage 3+ meant water meth and boost controller.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

HalvieCuw said:


> Considering how much it takes to get to even stage 3. By the time you are at the same level as this GTI you might as well have bought a 335 to begin with...
> 
> edit: seems that the stage 3+ meant water meth and boost controller.


The problem is the Tuning companies just put marginally sw at best because they where the only game in town just like the 1.8T to figure out the tuning and sw. Now with the FSI BOTH sw and hardware its taken time for others to figure it out and we should see big improvements in power levels IMO. Bob.G


----------



## wazzap1101 (May 1, 2009)

HalvieCuw said:


> Considering how much it takes to get to even stage 3. By the time you are at the same level as this GTI you might as well have bought a 335 to begin with...


MSRP for a base BMW 335XI is $43,100
MSRP for a base MK6 GTI is $23,960 (base for a MK5 was I think $21K, cant remember exactly though) APR STG 3 is $6500 for a complete kit for the FSI and $4500 for the TSI (at discount price for both)

So thats around a $13k difference, plus the price of the software for the 335. In the end, we get identical power, and better fuel economy  :beer:


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## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

335s have more displacement, more turbo's, and RWD or AWD

I have a buddy with a JB3 335 auto rwd and on an aggressive tune and race gas I am pretty confident he will pull on me.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

rracerguy717 said:


> * NEW LPFP * BTW is SPRING loaded you can see the spring in the photo
> 
> 
> 
> ...



* ***** Little update on new intank pump shown above *******


It works been working fine on my APR Stage 3 with 93 pump gas program and Race gas program with Lighter load ( 3rd gear when you get wheel spin LOL ) but High load 4th gear pull from 3K to 7K rpm its not cutting it atleast during these cold weather days like this morning @ 27 degrees the pump can only put out 1/2 or request but this is only during extreme load on the fuel system to the wood from 3-7K and remember with my lower c/r its gonna make it even worse. 

So to sum it up its a nice solution IMO for under 350-370 ish WHP under all conditions with RS4 injectors im running. 

I have sent out my old intank pump and my OLD OEM poorly modded APR injectors so they can flow test things . This company only does fueling systems and has been working on GDI BT fueling systems for the last few years ( Intank pumps, HPFP, and most importanly injectors ) for different plat forum . They are pretty confident they have and intank pump solution that will work and they can put toghter pretty fast so I can test it . They want me to get HPFP and stock fuel rail and intake manifold so they can make COMPLETE fueling solution thats plug and play. This is great news for us FSI BT people 

They where very excited to hear from me and to work with us BT FSI fuel needy customers . 

I will keep you posted im hoping I can get the intank pump in and tested in time for the FFE dyno day so I can see the full potential of the lower C/R on pump gas. :grinsanta: Bob.G


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

:thumbup:


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

Let bump this up. Arnold Post a pic of those LONG awaited CAT cams when they come in , should be any day ?  Bob G.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

rracerguy717 said:


> Let bump this up. Arnold Post a pic of those LONG awaited CAT cams when they come in , should be any day ?  Bob G.


 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: 

GOOD LUCK WITH THAT ONE. 

You can thank me if they work.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Here you go Bob. Pics arent great, but will serve their purpose..


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Good luck. :laugh:


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Already, you can see the differences. Look at the intake cam, b/w cyl 3 and 4, there is a hex casted by the headbolt recess where it is completely absent on yours. Same w/ the exhaust cam (1/2). Obviously, a different batch. Anyhow, this is more of an information gathering thread, no need for any negativity..


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Good luck. :laugh:


 Arin you never explained what is the issue here, and i know i'm a newb, but i can't tell...

Can you be a bit more specific ?


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Already, you can see the differences. Look at the intake cam, b/w cyl 3 and 4, there is a hex casted by the headbolt recess where it is completely absent on yours. Same w/ the exhaust cam (1/2). Obviously, a different batch.


 You can thank me for the changes...


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

If you want to PM me the information on your original cam card (if you have it) and I'll compare it to the data that I extract after cam doctor and if you can address in detail what was done, then I will express my gratitude


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
> 
> GOOD LUCK WITH THAT ONE.
> 
> You can thank me if they work.


 This from a new batch hence the long wait LOL. They will be spun on a CAM DOCTOR to check them to spec before they see any use . Bob. G


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

Bumping this thread up. Car has been running great and would like to thank Arnold again and wish the best of luck in his new shop I highly recommend Arnold @ Pag his attention to detail and LISTENING to his customers needs and goals sets him apart, you won't be disopointed. His new expanded shop with dyno bay will be finished shortly to be able to serve more customers . My car is ready for its next round of upgrades ( fueling ,new Cat Cams,valve springs )and will be heading down there shortly for new intank pump solution and shortly after some baseline dyno before the cam and spring upgrade. The dyno install should be done soon.  Bob. G. Pic's of progress of new shop in this thread. http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...cting-PAG-s-New-Installation-Facility**/page6


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Car came in for some maintenance work and a once over. Will probably think about setting up a custom intake plenum during this visit but not sure yet. While the timing belt is being freshened, figured it would be a good time to check on the turbo kit and possibly freshen up the chra. Took things apart and here are some findings...

T25 housing is cracked. This is a very common area on these particular housings to give way. If left unattended it will split completely through...










Provided coolant line became brittle and when uninstalling the chra, gave way...










There was a good amount of oil in the inlet/comp housing and not sure if the seal was tired or there was excessive vacuum in the housing due to a restriction in the inlet. We also disccovered that the backplate/chra o-ring was missing which was odd. Anyhow, the chra will go back and we will replace with a new unit along with one of our billet wheels along with a new exhaust housing...


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Car came in for some maintenance work and a once over. Will probably think about setting up a custom intake plenum during this visit but not sure yet. While the timing belt is being freshened, figured it would be a good time to check on the turbo kit and possibly freshen up the chra. Took things apart and here are some findings...
> 
> T25 housing is cracked. This is a very common area on these particular housings to give way. If left unattended it will split completely through...
> 
> ...


 Good catch Arnold prob would have been a bad day for me if the crack would have ran any further plus that coolant line looks like APR used something from there local advanced autoparts all rubber hose near turbo heat = great Engineering. Hopefully you will get your own .72 internal housing in the near future in the mean time ill have to use another new .64 Garrett unit.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Anyhow, the chra will go back and we will replace with a new unit along with one of our billet wheels along with a new exhaust housing...


Your new billet wheel 

Looks great Arnold can't wait to test it out. Bob G :thumbup:


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## EL_3grab (Mar 25, 2006)

Ok, I had the same exact issues 

- Excessive oil leak from the CHRA
- Cracked housing on the exact spot
- No O-ring on the backplate
- Cracked the coolant line when un-installing

But now all good with a the new CHRA, done 72K km on the old one :beer:


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

EL_3grab said:


> Ok, I had the same exact issues
> 
> - Excessive oil leak from the CHRA
> - Cracked housing on the exact spot
> ...



The oring I found odd. The turbine housing' is common. They can be deburred before final assembly but it will probably just stave off the inevitable (we recycled a nice pile of them I had gone through this year). You'll want to check you intake filter frequently as vac created by compromised intake flow will act in trying to pull oil past the comp seal.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

New chra, new housing and a new pair...


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Update: 

Eurodyne Boost Manager Plus unit installed. WMI, LPFP controller, Boost controller installed 










Meth pump installed 










Dislpay screen with boost duty control 










Configuration will commence after clutch replacement as its slipping after 40k miles... Stay tuned....


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## Brokenparts (Sep 8, 2012)

any updates?


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Waiting on a new module from Eurodyne. Car hasnt been seeing much action as the owner has been playing with his new motorcycle as of late but I'll have some updates pretty soon as we round this project out. But there will be some new FSI/TSI turbo kit developments on our side fairly soon aside from our SS vbanded setups that are every bit as fun and quite a bit more cost effective for those that are looking for more of a bolt on setup but looking for a bit more then a K04... Stay tuned...


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## Brokenparts (Sep 8, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Waiting on a new module from Eurodyne. Car hasnt been seeing much action as the owner has been playing with his new motorcycle as of late but I'll have some updates pretty soon as we round this project out. But there will be some new FSI/TSI turbo kit developments on our side fairly soon aside from our SS vbanded setups that are every bit as fun and quite a bit more cost effective for those that are looking for more of a bolt on setup but looking for a bit more then a K04... Stay tuned...


Awesome... that is the kind of info I'm looking for to be honest. I've following the Frakenturbo thread quite a bit but am hesitant to pull the trigger so I've been exploring other "kits". "Pagpart kits" have come up quite a bit in my searches (positive) and is why I bumped this thread.... been an interesting read to say the least. 

Sorry to hi-jack this thread out of self interest... please shoot me an PM with more info or link me to developments on the "more than K04 bolt on kit" when the time is right. I'm growing more and more bored of my k03 every day. 

thanks..


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Thanks for the interest. We've had the hardware since 07. Our vbanded kits havent been marketed like some of the other kits out there but we feel its one of the better setups in many respects. We've been concentrating on the older 1.8t platform and now we need to give the FSI/TSI platform its just do. I own 2x FSI vehicles myself and my personal B7 will go under the knife soon with our billeted GT3071R setup with our proprietary .72ar vbanded housing which is a killer match. We like to do things a little differently then some of the others and coming out with solutions that arent commerically out there does not deter us from developing our own :thumbup:

Here is one of our customers in Sweden testing out his Cupra R 1.8t w/ our SS vbanded kit w/ .72ar and our own billet GT3071R on the Nurburgring, Germany


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## HYDE16 (Aug 20, 2010)

*HYDE16 - The Pag Parts EFR Turbo Kit:*
I am very proud to introduce the first PPT EFR 7163 Turbo Kit for the 2.0 TSI (EA888 Gen 1 & Gen 2) platform. As the build moves forward, I will post updates with photos in this thread and across social media for those who want to follow the progression. *Engine was built with these Brute IX connecting rods!*

*Follow:*
Vortex Engine Thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7633242-HYDE16-The-Pag-Parts-EFR-Turbo-Kit
Facebook: *Ryan Jacobs*
Instagram: *@becauseryanjacobs*
Instagram: *@pagparts*
YouTube: *Ryan Jacobs*


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