# "Lightweight" Lifters?



## 97'BlueGT (Jul 13, 2003)

I thought I heard somewhere that later MKIV 8V lifters are a "lightweight" alternative for the ABA engine? 
Doing some work on the old Daily Driver and no matter what I have done the lifters "tick" even though oil is clean and pressure and flow good. 
I figure since I am going to replace the valve cover gasket I might as well clean the head and replace the lifters. (they're cheap enough). Is it true that these are a "better" lifter?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

Lighter by a few grams. Every little bit counts. And seeing how they are the same price, why not. 
$85


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## 97'BlueGT (Jul 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (tdogg74)*

tdogg,
Can I just get replacement later year lifters?
If so what year did they start those lifters? which engine code?


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## 97'BlueGT (Jul 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (97'BlueGT)*

Also,
can anyone reccomend a "cheap" (price wise) cam to drop in while I am at it. Do not want to "chip" it just something with a little bit more oomph and no CEL.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

Those are OEM lifters. I've run a few sets of the ones I posted a link to. They work perfectly fine. 
As for a cam, most new cams in the 256*-260* duration range cost between $130-$150. Used, for $100 or under. Whatever cam you choose, you are going to be limited due to the type of valve springs used in the Mexican heads. Max lift you can safely go with is .432". Anything more than that and you will run into spring binding issues. If you want to go with a more aggressive camshaft, you will need to upgrade to dual spring seats, retainers and HD valve springs. But staying within that shorter duration, you will not run into and CEL issues and your idle quality will remain somewhat smooth. (there will be a slight lope due to valve overlap)
Techtonics Tuning and Autotech both sell 260*/256* split duration cams that will give your motor a little more pep. Keep an eye out in the classifieds for used 260* cams. Techtonics stopped selling the symmetrical 260* cam, so used is your only option.


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

*Re: "Lightweight" Lifters? (97'BlueGT)*

From what I understand from investigated this issue, I found that there are actually three lifters available.
#1 is the original lifter. This is the heaviest. Used on the early ABA engine, and also on the VR6.
#2 MKIV lifter, slightly light than the original early MKIII lifter, and more expensive. Also installed by VW at the factory on later MKIIIs (97 and newer?).
#3 lightweight lifters, about 30% lighter than the original early MKIII lifters, and about the same price as MKIV lifters. Someone wrote that USRT has these lifters at the best price.


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

*Re: "Lightweight" Lifters? (germancarnut51)*

The USRT lifters ARE the mkIV lifters.....and they are 15 grams a pop lighter. Makes a difference just holding em in your hand. And that comparison was with lifters out of a 98 jetta vs USRT lifters, which the above poster said were lighter than early mkIII's.
I can't speculate about early mkIII lifters being heavier than late mkIIIs, but I can tell you that the USRT lifters are in fact mkIV lifters.....At least that's what Scott told me when I was at his house buying them.


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

*Re: "Lightweight" Lifters? (PBWB)*

If the USRT lifters are MKIV lifters, then the TT lightweight lifters are lifters to have, since they are lighter than the USRT lifters. 
The Late MKIII lifters are the same part number as the MKIV lifters.


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

*Re: "Lightweight" Lifters? (germancarnut51)*

I'll have Scott weigh a mkIV lifter and I'll weigh my 1998 lifters I just pulled last weekend and I'll post what I find.


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

*Re: "Lightweight" Lifters? (germancarnut51)*


_Quote, originally posted by *germancarnut51* »_If the USRT lifters are MKIV lifters, *then the TT lightweight lifters are lifters to have, since they are lighter than the USRT lifters. *
The Late MKIII lifters are the same part number as the MKIV lifters.

Got any proof on this? 
I have reason to believe that TT is selling mk4 lifters as well, but the obvious giveaway to that is that they are only $14 a piece.....which at that rate you're STILL better off with gettin em through USRT.


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## vwhotrodder 2 (Feb 10, 2003)

*Re: "Lightweight" Lifters? (PBWB)*

Keep in mind that any used lifter will be slightly heavier as there will be oil in them..... I agree as stated that mk4s are the lightest


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

*Re: "Lightweight" Lifters? (PBWB)*

Techtonics lists three different lifters in both their online and printed catalogs. I phoned them to ask what was the difference between the three lifters since people write that the MKIV lifters are lighter than MKIII lifters, I wanted to know if the lightweight lifter was really another different lifter, or if it was a modified MKIII or MKIV lifter. The answer I was given is that the lightweight MKIII lifter is in fact a different lifter, and lighter than the MKIV lifter. 
Why don't you take the time to check out online parts catalogs from different Sellers? Then, you will see for yourself that there are different lifters listed for early and late MKIIIs. 


_Modified by germancarnut51 at 5:40 PM 2-3-2010_


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

*Re: "Lightweight" Lifters? (germancarnut51)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwhotrodder 2* »_Keep in mind that any used lifter will be slightly heavier as there will be oil in them..... I agree as stated that mk4s are the lightest









I'm just a tad smarter than that.







I filled the sprung chamber with starting fluid and let it dry before I did my "handheld" comparison, but if someone can post a weight on a version of a "lightweight" lifter, that'd be a big help to this thread. I'll bring both an early mk3 and a late mk3 lifter in to work and weigh them over the weekend.

_Quote, originally posted by *germancarnut51* »_Techtonics lists three different lifters in both their online and printed catalogs. I phoned them to ask what was the difference between the three lifters since people write that the MKIV lifters are lighter than MKIII lifters, I wanted to know if the lightweight lifter was really another different lifter, or if it was a modified MKIII or MKIV lifter. The answer I was given is that the lightweight MKIII lifter is in fact a different lifter, and lighter than the MKIV lifter. 
Why don't you take the time to check out online parts catalogs from different Sellers? Then, you will see for yourself that there are different lifters listed for early and late MKIIIs. 

I had Scott (from USRT) call TT lastnight as well and they wouldn't report that techtonics themselves makes the "lightweight" lifter. If they did, I'm sure they'd lay claim to it.
And if you know anything about contracting parts, you'll know that there are several manufacturers who make the same lifter. Just the same as you can buy goetze, mahle, victor reinz, and other parts manufacturers....even though they all make the same parts for VW. It's EASILY feasible that different manufacturers make lighter versions of the same exact lifter.


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

*Re: "Lightweight" Lifters? (PBWB)*

If the lightweight lifter that Techtonics sells is not lighter than the MKIV lifter, then they would not advertise it as such. 
And, it doesn't make any difference to me who who the manufacturer of the lightweight lifter is, as long as it's well made and finished, durable, reliable, and lighter, as advertised.


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *PBWB* »_
I'm just a tad smarter than that.







I filled the sprung chamber with starting fluid and let it dry before I did my "handheld" comparison,


we also lit one on fire.... and welded two together...tee hee...


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## vwhotrodder 2 (Feb 10, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Someone get your scale out and weigh them....Get back to the original question....who has the lightest lifters????


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## germancarnut51 (Mar 23, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

So are you (USRT) accusing Techtonics of selling exactly the same MKIV lifters under two different part numbers?
Just why would they do that? What would they gain? They sell both parts (at the same price), and they told me to buy the lightweight lifters, as they were lighter than the MKIV lifters that the sell. IF they were the same lifters, why wouldn't they have told me to buy the MKIV lifters, and why would they bother to catalog, advertise, and sell different part numbers if they are all the same?
If you are so sure that they are purposely mis-leading Buyers by selling the same lifters that you sell under two different part numbers, why don't you say that to their faces? Buy some of their lifters and prove your statement. 


_Modified by germancarnut51 at 3:38 PM 2-5-2010_


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (germancarnut51)*


_Quote, originally posted by *germancarnut51* »_So are you (USRT) accusing Techtonics of selling exactly the same MKIV lifters under two different part numbers?
Just why would they do that? What would they gain? They sell both parts, and they told me to buy the lightweight lifters, as they were lighter than the MKIV lifters that the sell. IF they were the same lifters, why wouldn't they have told me to buy the MKIV lifters, and why would they bother to catalog, advertise, and sell different part numbers if they are all the same?
If you are so sure that they are purposely mis-leading Buyers by selling the same lifters that you sell under two different part numbers, why don't say it to they faces? Buy some of their lifters and prove your statement. 
alright just got off the phone with TT...they will niether confirm nor deny that so i retract my previous statement and appologize for any confusion...guess we need to weigh some.


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_alright just got off the phone with TT...they will niether confirm nor deny that so i retract my previous statement and appologize for any confusion...guess we need to weigh some. 

Way to make a tool of yourself. That was my point up there about 7 posts ago.


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## Jay-Bee (Sep 22, 2007)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_alright just got off the phone with TT...*they will niether confirm nor deny* that so i retract my previous statement and appologize for any confusion...guess we need to weigh some. 



_Quote, originally posted by *PBWB* »_
Way to make a tool of yourself. That was my point up there about 7 posts ago.


Yeah ok


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Jay-Bee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jay-Bee* »_
Yeah ok











_Quote, originally posted by *PBWB* »_I had Scott (from USRT) call TT lastnight as well and they wouldn't report that techtonics themselves makes the "lightweight" lifter. If they did, I'm sure they'd lay claim to it.

Yep. Definitely said that.


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *PBWB* »_
Way to make a tool of yourself. That was my point up there about 7 posts ago.


Oh hi Aaron how are you?


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## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
we also lit one on fire.... 

I did that once, the unexpected explosion was a nice surprise.


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## vwhotrodder 2 (Feb 10, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (wantacad)*

What a useless thread......You would think that USRT would weigh some and TT would weigh some then we all would know what the true weight of each would be.....Simple question convaluded answer..


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## 97'BlueGT (Jul 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Well, I am checking back in on this older post and it seems that since I asked the original question much more discussion has taken place. (Thanks for that BTW)
Having been in R&D for many years I find it hard to beleive that smaller companies (no disrespect to USRT and TT) would go out of their way to develop a "lightweight" lifter for these motors. I agree with USRT's decision to sell MKIV lifters as "lightweight" replacements for early MK3's and other 8V hyro motors. 
After a lot of research online USRT's price is indeed the BEST.
I also agree with the posters who stated that since there are a few Manufacturers making replacements the weights are going to be slightly different. 
My theory is this:
Stock MK3 and earlier lifters are made by a couple OE suppliers for VW. They were made to VW spec's at the time. Following the "typical" changes to the MK3 we see that in late 95-95 VW made significant changes to the ABA motor. (lighter internals, no oil squirters, dropped the oil pan baffle, new heads, single springs etc.) I think that they also may have slightly changed the lifter design to go with the lighter duty valvetrain or used a different OE supplier, this may explain why someone finds the later MK3 lifter to be "lighter". Remember how popular sales were in the 95-96-97 model years they needed to bring production UP and cost DOWN.
As emission standards and horsepower/efficiency became more and more important they redesigned the lifter again for MKIV motors. 
Since the MKIV's are just as reliable as the early motors I assume the lifter is suitable and since it is LIGHTER that is the one to go with if your changing them out. 
I'd bet a significant amount of money that if we were to purchase 5 lifters. 
OEM 94 ABA
OEM 98-99 ABA
OEM 2004 MKiV
USRT "Lightweight"
TT "lightweight"
We will find them to follow the above order from Heaviest to Lightest.
The only issue being that most likely the 2004 OEM and USRT will be IDENTICAL (per USRT) and the TT will be very insignificantly lighter because it is probably made by another manufacturer from slightly lighter or LESS material. 
Being from the Northeast (a Yankee) I tend to think that TOO LIGHT is TOO WEAK. So I will be getting ready to place and order with USRT for the $85 set.


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## vwhotrodder 2 (Feb 10, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (97'BlueGT)*

I guess nobody wants to negatively affect there sales by weighing these and posting the weights of each for us to choose what we want to use.........Sad day for the consumer.....


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

*FV-QR*

It such a trivial aspect of the whole engine when it comes to actual gains. Honestly its not worth any of the parties times. If a 3rd party would like to weigh and post results then by all means. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


_Modified by [email protected] at 2:48 PM 2-17-2010_


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## 97'BlueGT (Jul 13, 2003)

Not sure it is such a sad day for the consumer.
USRT seems to be very forthright and honest about theirs being MKIV lifters. Their price is the best I can find and there is something to be said about honesty and transparency.


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## 97'BlueGT (Jul 13, 2003)

BTW,
The issue for me is that I will be replacing lifters regardless of weight. Since the best price I found for "stock" MK3 lifters was $9 ea + shipping I think I can live with paying the extra $13 for USRT's since they are a proven VW part. The reluctance on the part of TT to tell us actual weights (would think if they are TRULY something special and light they would fall all over themselves to tell us right?) Leads me to beleive that the reason they are "lighter" might be due to "suspect" quality.
(My bet is made in CHINA)


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## vwhotrodder 2 (Feb 10, 2003)

*Re: (97'BlueGT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *97’BlueGT* »_BTW,
The issue for me is that I will be replacing lifters regardless of weight. Since the best price I found for "stock" MK3 lifters was $9 ea + shipping I think I can live with paying the extra $13 for USRT's since they are a proven VW part. The reluctance on the part of TT to tell us actual weights (would think if they are TRULY something special and light they would fall all over themselves to tell us right?) Leads me to beleive that the reason they are "lighter" might be due to "suspect" quality.
(My bet is made in CHINA)
 Funny i thought the whole point of this post was to find out who has the lightest lifters. If USRT was so transpairent why don't they get off the soap box and weigh some.???? As far as TT goes they are not here to represent them selves but USRT is so why not just weigh some and finnally solve the OP's Original question???....money money money. If a company does'nt answer my questions to my satisfaction i simply would not buy from them period.... I know when it comes right down to it the weight of the lifters is negledgeable but the OP wants to know so tell him already


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## vwhotrodder 2 (Feb 10, 2003)

*Re: (97'BlueGT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *97’BlueGT* »_Not sure it is such a sad day for the consumer.
USRT seems to be very forthright and honest about theirs being MKIV lifters. Their price is the best I can find and there is something to be said about honesty and transparency.
 So tell me this why did they not just weigh some???? MONEY MONEY MONEY is the bottom line.... As i said earlier what a useless post.........NO ANSWERS


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## 97'BlueGT (Jul 13, 2003)

*Re: (vwhotrodder 2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwhotrodder 2* »_ I know when it comes right down to it the weight of the lifters is negledgeable but the OP wants to know so tell him already





































Hotrod,
I AM the OP and in all honesty my questions were answered, as per your own statement
(If a company does'nt answer my questions to my satisfaction i simply would not buy from them period.... )
TT was called by a customer and a competitor, they would NOT answer what exactly were the "lightest, "lightweight" lifters they sell.
We are taking about GRAMS here. Not many people have a scale with great accuracy in the GRAM range. Also, ONE CC of motor oil weighs about a GRAM so oily vs clean ,empty vs full will change the readings.
I would also bet that the tolerances in production will vary slightly also.
Just for reference assuming an approximate diameter of 2" and height of 2" just 1 THOUSANDTH of an inch smaller so 1.999" and it weighs over half a gram less.
The original question was NOT WHO HAS THE LIGHTEST lifters, it was ARE THE MKIV lifters lighter! Not by HOW MUCH BUT ARE THEY LIGHTER?
My question was answered in FULL by all the posters. The MKIV lifters are indeed lighter, I intended to find the best price on OEM MKIV lifters. TDogg's link to the USRT lifters @ $85 was only $13 more than the price I had on STOCK MK3 lifters. 
SO..in a "Nutshell"
USRT honestly told us that there is no "MAGIC" in their "Lightweight" lifters..they are simply OEM MKIV lifters. They are only reluctant to give numbers because of the variances I mentioned.
Example, NO number just lighter is OK when giving a number that someone on the forum might not be able to duplicate may cause "all hell to break loose", also they are CHEAPER than I can get STOCK MK3's for.
TT doesnt even say where the "Lightweight" lifters come from.
IMHO if they are 2 or 3 or 4 grams lighter it makes no difference. The fact that they are reliable and lighter and CHEAPER makes all the difference to me.
USRT seems to have the same philosophy as me "No need to reinvent the wheel". 
I have used TT parts in the past and had no issues, I do not question their integrity, merely can see spending more than I need to.
BTW,
It is really a TRIVIAL question once the weight gets to a gram or less.
Using basic physics F=M*A the acceleration of the lifters is constant with any given cam. So the force required to move them changes with MASS. I am guessing a lifter weighs about 400 grams so even 4 grams lighter is only 1% less energy required to move it. BUT if I am going with a more agressive cam (more acceleration of the lifter) then ANY help in the MASS side of the equation is important. Given the LOWER COST of the USRT lifters AND the lower MASS = http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Minor_Threat (May 12, 2009)

*Re: (97'BlueGT)*

ok I have a bunch of lifters out of a 98 ABA, I'm gonna put in lightweight lifters, now reading this thread that USRT's are just MKIV lifters, I'm going to purchase the TT ones. I'll weigh them and post their weight, and will do with the stock ABA one. If USRT will comply, if they can weigh theirs.


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## vwhotrodder 2 (Feb 10, 2003)

*Re: (97'BlueGT)*

Point set match...OP very well said....Just annoys me when people evade a question.....


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

*Re: (Minor_Threat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwhotrodder 2* »_If USRT was so transpairent why don't they get off the soap box and weigh some.???? 

Ever think it's because they currently don't have any in stock? I talked to Scott when this whole thing went down and he doesn't have any in stock at the moment. Don't be so quick to judge next time.


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## vwhotrodder 2 (Feb 10, 2003)

*Re: (PBWB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PBWB* »_
Ever think it's because they currently don't have any in stock? I talked to Scott when this whole thing went down and he doesn't have any in stock at the moment. Don't be so quick to judge next time.
 Typical.....easy way to stay out of the whole debate....


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwhotrodder 2* »_Point set match...OP very well said....Just annoys me when people evade a question..... 


there isn't any question evasion. We sell mk4 lifters and we're also TT dealers. TT chose not to divulge where they source their lifters from. We're up front and tell you that ours are stock mk4 lifters. If you're so adamant about weighing a set, find a mk4 up there in Canada and weigh them. As stated before we do not have any TT lifters in stock so we can't weight them. Stop getting on here and bashing two well respected companies.


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

*Re: (vwhotrodder 2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwhotrodder 2* »_ Typical.....easy way to stay out of the whole debate....

You're an idiot. It's not avoiding....Scott runs everything from a location that's.....well not exactly spacious, and doesn't exactly have the room to stock everything on his website. Quit being a whiny baby about it and accept that he COINCIDENTALLY doesn't have any in stock at the moment. IT'S A FACT. That's why I posted that I asked if he had any in stock a while ago (I saw this coming). Besides, Scott has a lot bigger things going on right now....like the ITB setup. 
Jesus, and I don't even work for USRT.....


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