# Where is your total timing during boost



## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

Trying to get a better idea of what everyone runs total timing under boost. 
Mine is at 18 degrees at 15 PSI. 
And at 26 degrees at 5PSI 
VR6,To4 60-1, Front mount, SDS, 8.5-1 compression. 
Trying to advance my timing a little up top. 
Any one had any luck?


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (mattstacks)*

You are running plenty of timing for pump gas.
I wouldn't even run 26 deg @ 5 psi...
If you are getting the 8.5:1 comp with a headgasket, i.e. no forged pistons,
(my opinion here) you're close to the maximum I would run.
Take it to the dyno you'll see that when you close to the limit the 'gain'
from running more timing is not much. i.e. less than 10 hp.
Safer to run less timing and turn up the boost.
Just my conservative tuning opinion.
Jeffrey Atwood


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (Jefnes3)*

understood, but SDS tells me that there is less advantage to running more boost if you have to retard timing to get it. They state that the ideal timing is never below 15 total and that a good number would be 18 to 20 total. I am basicaly pulling one degree per psi with a total of 32 before boost retard. 
Where would you run at 5 PSI
Thanks for the reply


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (mattstacks)*

They are correct basically, you shouldn't ever NEED to run less than 18 deg 
total timing. This is a good rule of thumb...
Take a look at what the timing curves are like on the VR6 and other 
VW FI engines....
Even the OE 1.8T runs down to just 5 deg. total timing....
On a stock CR VR6, I have to run the timing down to ~14 at peak torque
to keep the knock sensor out of my hair....(~9-10 psi NO IC)
This is what REALLY dictates the 'max boost' an engine can handle,
when you need too little total timing because of CR/octane/boost to keep
away from detonation. Keep away from detonation and you can run 
fairly big boost.
My opinon is that the VR6 is a compromise in combustion chamber design and
doesn't tolerate a huge amount of timing advance/high compression.
i.e. notice the lack of chamber in the head....
Like I said before you are running plenty of timing for pump gas....
You need to go to the dyno to measure the gains. When you advance the timing
peak cylinder pressures increase MUCH faster than power. This is why a 
softer timed car tends to live longer. 
Like all things in life there is a balance....advincing your timing just brings you closer to the edge.
Jeffrey Atwood


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## KOOTER (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (Jefnes3)*

I've seen my timing(when I had a stock chip)drop to as low as 6deg.I was hitting the knock sensor pretty hard at that point(15psi).Now after I have a new chip the timing seems to stay in the 12-14deg range(every once and a while it will hit knock sensor and drop).It is much smoother and faster at 12lbs than it was at 16lbs before.


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (KOOTER)*

Agreed, it goes to the dyno this week and i will see what i can make work, I would like to keep it around 18 total at 15 PSI, but we will see.
I guess 15 total isnt to bad. I will try both and report back in this thread. 
Thanks again for the replys.
Matt


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## Beaver Hunter (Sep 13, 2003)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (mattstacks)*

What are you going to keep your a/f at?I read Lugnuts post about a 16V turbo he was tuning,low 11's a/f and 17 deg. timing ,pump gas at like 15-20 psi IIRC. I will be trying to shoot for that cuz we all know Lugnutz is tha man!


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (Beaver Hunter)*

True, i was thinking around 11.5-9 at 15 PSI at 16-18 degrees total. I dont think i will make it to twenty PSI 'till I get forged pistons.
Huh, i wonder if I should go lower than my original 11.9,where it sits now.
I will try it both ways assuming I have time and see where the power is.


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (mattstacks)*

I run a very conservative 21.6 degrees total advance under boost with my Lysholm Cabby. The stock A2 knock box ignition when timed at 6 degrees initial puts out about 28 degrees total past 4500 rpm, I then trim it back .8 degrees per lb boost...


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## Slynus (Mar 19, 2002)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (Peter Tong)*

no input but excellent thread guys. Covering the grey area.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (Slynus)*

while i am not lugnuts, i dont really believe his timing was that low at only 15-20psi of boost.(17deg)
i run 23 deg. advance with 15psi of boost. pump gas, no problem.


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## KOOTER (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (speed51133!)*

You have to take alot of things into account when determining what your total timing should be(combustion chamber desing,compression ratio,boost level,and octane rating).Everyone has a diferent setup and everyone has different total timing.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (KOOTER)*

yeah, but are we all talking about the same thing?
i thought that lugnuts wasnt sure of the exact timing, because he was using the OEM 30-2 toothed wheel for the bosch injection with his auutronic????
maybe im confusing a car he was working on with his car.
nevertheless, do all managment systems measure timing advance the same way?


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## Beaver Hunter (Sep 13, 2003)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (speed51133!)*

It was a 16V turbo he was tuning for pump gas for someone and IIRC it was about 300+hp on a stock 16V bottom end with stacked gaskets.I read that he ended up with 17deg. timing and low 11's a'f ratio. Since he knows his sh*t,I am going to go with that and try it out.In my own car I am in the mid-high teens timing and it runs good for me.But with a bigger turbo and 16V I am putting in I will have to re-tune.I realized with my setup and the hot ambient temperature where I live,that it was safer to be more conservative on the timing,and since we have streetcars,you won't be under boost so long that you will melt anything from retarded timing.Just a thoery.


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (Beaver Hunter)*

I am going to try it both ways. Once the car is on dyn i can actually take the time to add and watch my knock sensor. I will turn the sensor up to around 25 (SDS suggests 20 base for European(Bosch) sensors) and watch and see. As of now the sensor is not pulling timing at the above mentioned numbers . The only problem is that it is hard to watch and drive, as well as the speeds that you reach at 15 pounds not being very legal. So i will run at the timing it is set to now, see what kind of power I get, then up it till my knock sensor starts pulling. Pull it back at that point and run it again. Then I will bring the A/F's lower and see what i get there. I will report back in this thread along with my complete set up. 
And yea we are talking about the same thing, under the assumption that we run pump gas, I run 94 octane, and that our compression is lowered, or even stock. What timing at what boost? Is the question. 



_Modified by mattstacks at 11:18 AM 9-24-2003_


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## vfarren (Sep 11, 2000)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (mattstacks)*

Matt,
I have 1.8l 16v, 9:1 compression, 93 octane fuel, 12 psi boost from a T360. At full throttle and full boost, intake air temps are around 107 F. (yeah, I need a more efficient intercooler). Total timing under boost is 23 BTDC. So far so good, no problems but the motor has less than 1K miles on it. Plugs look good though and compression is even across the board. Not running a knock sensor.


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## Scrulnik (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (vfarren)*

I'm confused; how do you moniter your timing advance while driving under boost? 
I thought it might be with the knock sensor, but vfarren just said he wasn't even running one. 
Do you have aftermarket fuel management systems that monitor these things,
such as intake air temps and A/F ratios?
*I want to know EVERYthing...*


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (vfarren)*

Not running a knock sensor? Do you just listen for pings. I havent had very good luck cause I cant hear a damb ping at all. It might have something to do with the fact that I have an external wastegate with a dump tube. But I havent yet heard a ping. Even at 30 total under boost. 
My intake temps go anywhere from 60-95 dependent on the day, and stop and go traffic. I have a short runner intake, so I am pretty sure that is the temp going into the head. Temp guage 6 inches before throttle body.


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## vfarren (Sep 11, 2000)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (mattstacks)*

Haha, I can't hear a damn thing at WOT in my Rabbit, it is just too loud. I have been keeping a close eye on the plugs and they look alright. My intake air temp sensor is about 8 inches from the T-body, using stock Scirocco 16v intake.


_Quote, originally posted by *mattstacks* »_Not running a knock sensor? Do you just listen for pings. I havent had very good luck cause I cant hear a damb ping at all. It might have something to do with the fact that I have an external wastegate with a dump tube. But I havent yet heard a ping. Even at 30 total under boost. 
My intake temps go anywhere from 60-95 dependent on the day, and stop and go traffic. I have a short runner intake, so I am pretty sure that is the temp going into the head. Temp guage 6 inches before throttle body.


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## vfarren (Sep 11, 2000)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (Scrulnik)*

Running Commander 950, so yes, aftermarket EFI with lots of bells and whistles









_Quote, originally posted by *Scrulnik* »_I'm confused; how do you moniter your timing advance while driving under boost? 
I thought it might be with the knock sensor, but vfarren just said he wasn't even running one. 
Do you have aftermarket fuel management systems that monitor these things,
such as intake air temps and A/F ratios?
*I want to know EVERYthing...*


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (Scrulnik)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scrulnik* »_I'm confused; how do you monitor your timing advance while driving under boost? 
I thought it might be with the knock sensor, but vfarren just said he wasn't even running one. 
Do you have aftermarket fuel management systems that monitor these things,
such as intake air temps and A/F ratios?
*I want to know EVERYthing...*









SDS, and other after market fuel systems give the user the ability to monitor and change the timing. My system allows the user to set the timing per RPM then has another setting to that allows you to retard the timing using boost as a reference. Most people use 1 degree retard per PSI or less, as mentioned above.
They also give you the ability to monitor your sensors, such as intake and motor temp.
You can turn the knock sensor off if you do not want to deal with it. I dont know why you would. But at the same time to rely on your knock sensor to run timing for you is not suggested.


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## vfarren (Sep 11, 2000)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (mattstacks)*

Forgot to add that I am using Bosch FR5DTC spark plugs which are one heat range colder than the stock 16v plugs. I know people use stock 16v plugs in a lot of boost apps, but I am going by the rule of thumb: for every 75-100 hp over stock, go with one heat range colder.
Note: I believe stock 16v plugs are 2 heat ranges colder than STOCK 8v plugs, which is why (I ASSume) ATP sells stock 16v plugs with their kits.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (vfarren)*

i dont even have any knock sensors in my motor. 
i run sds, and set timing via rpm only. dont even pull any timing out during boost, or add any during vacuume.
23deg max, currently i run like 10-15psi pump gas t3/to4e


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (speed51133!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_
i run 23 deg. advance with 15psi of boost. pump gas, no problem.

That's why yo ish is always broke


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (killa)*

broke like your face is?


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (speed51133!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_23deg max, currently i run like 10-15psi pump gas t3/to4e

This probably works fine, considering that you'll never need more timing than that at high RPM 'cause there's no reason to go up there (in the rev range) without boosting, unless you're neutral reving the car. I would think.


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (speed51133!)*

I could see running 23 at 10 but not 15. Why no knock sensors?


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (mattstacks)*

i dont know, more wires, more problems to go wrong.
a knock sensor doesnt prevent knock, it stops it once it hapens.
if your relying on knock sensors, your tuning isnt good.


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (speed51133!)*

True but it can give you an inclination of where to pull to timing as well as if you even need to.


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## Beaver Hunter (Sep 13, 2003)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (mattstacks)*

Start with a rich mixture and conservative timing and keep adding timing until you see no power increase,then play with your mixture and see where it likes it.Just try too keep her rich at torque peak and most timing pulled out at torque peak(4-5k).and advance a couple deg. more before and after torque peak.My base rpm timing has 2 deg.pulled out between 4-5.2k rpm.Still hear no pinging.I do have internal w/g and full interior,so it is insulated and easy to hear pinging.


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## vw16vcabby (Sep 19, 2001)

on my car (16v) i start w/ timing at 12* at 1k rpm. it works its way up to 32-34* range where it holds that number from 3k rpm to 7250. Then, i have sds programed to pull out 1 degree of timing per 1 lb of boost. SO my set 34 at 6500 rpm w/ 15lbs of boost = 19* total timing. timing was at 34, sysytem sees 15lbs- so subtract 15 degrees= total timing of 19*. 
i think some people reading this thread are confused about this aspect.
just a rule of thumb that works w/ almost all f/i cars-- 1 degree of timing per lb of boost seen is about the norm to pull out for timing. but as allways YOUR RESULTS MAY VERY


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (vw16vcabby)*

I agree - I generally use 32 minus 1 degree per lb boost as a baseline...the 16v can run more (better chamber design). I suppose the amount of retard should really be indexed to the ratio of mass flow under boost to flow at the NA to boost crossover point but who measures that.
I plan on purchasing a few tools to get my ignition timing maps perfect soon....


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## '89gli (Sep 2, 1999)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (mattstacks)*

mattstacks, any updates? I'm intested in seeing what you results were.
I'm currently trying to adjust the timing on my Corrado with Autronic and don't want to end up with a blown engine.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost ('89gli)*

to the original poster...
your right on target with other sds setups. thats about the limit of pump gas.


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (speed51133!)*

I have been running lower compression and bigger turbo so my timing is now at 20 deg @ 20psi and at 25psi it is timed at 18 degBTDC,with 100 ocatne,for 96 octane I run lower boost and 2 deg. less timing.This fugger pulls so hard now I will be trying at the track...........previously at the track I am finding that adding 4 degrees makes no difference and leaning it past 12.0 and leaner makes no difference other than trapping lower,so I am keeping my conservative timing and richer mixture,but running higher boost,like you have to on a super low comp motor. WHAT TRIPS ME OUT IS HOW PEOPLE SAY It is impossible to have a low comp,responsive motor,and every person I've ever given a ride to never mentions "lack of responsiveness",most say "oh sh*t!"............














cuz I can run 19-25 psi on the street with good gas,and 15psi with "OK" gas which makes for a fun car to saY THE LEAST.......


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (Holy Piston)*

I am still trying to get to the dyno, I will be there before it gets too warm. 
I just (last week) finished the three inch exhaust and clutch, I also needed to replace my EBC cause it broke on me, lastly I put a EGT in it. 
There was no point in going to the dyno before this. I was loosing all sorts of power at the flywheel.
I also put some bosch f5's in there but they had no effect on the knock sensor pulling timing at a sensitivity of 20, I have since pulled 7 away leaving me with a 13 sensitivity, i hear no ping or feel no loss in power. 
The o2 sensor went on the wide band so i haven't been able to see how my AF is with the quicker spool, but I tuned it before using MAP as reference so i don't think it will be much different. 
I have been keeping a close eye on my EGTs and believe I am running on the rich side, I did up the numbers in the RPM values a couple during peak boost.
I will be out this weekend with the wide band to street tune again then head to the dyno in the next couple of weeks.
I don't expect to gain too much power after reading and playing with my car I am realizing there isn't as much to gain as I thought. But I want to be able listen to the motor for knock from the outside and get a second reference of AFR's as I have since learned that a wide band can trick you. 
Especially when your o2 sensor goes at the same time as the wide band sensor. 


_Modified by mattstacks at 11:29 PM 3-1-2004_


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## '89gli (Sep 2, 1999)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (mattstacks)*

You say prior to boost you are at 32 degrees timing, [email protected] and [email protected]? 
Would you please break down your timing by rpm? I'd like to make sure I'm in a safe range. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost ('89gli)*

My friends VR6 I tuned I tried 20 deg. and then 18 and saw no change in HP at the dyno,we were tuning on a humid 70 deg. night with air filter in the engine bay i& intake temps were hot to say the least,so I did'nt want to add a lot of timing,and got [email protected] psi on a rich tune and 18deg timing.This might not be impressive to most,I was happy with it. This motor had burnt oil even before it was turboed and that can affect your timing cause burning oil can make it ping,so engine condition counts for a lot,so if your engine is in good shape you can run more timing. Good luck with your tuningMattstacks,what boost and power are you going for??Try what SDS recommends and try it with your mixture knob @ different percentages,and watch where it loses or gains..........I have never used the knock sensor setup,I've been lucky I guess


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## Stephen Webb (Apr 12, 2001)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (speed51133!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_i dont know, more wires, more problems to go wrong.
a knock sensor doesnt prevent knock, it stops it once it hapens.
if your relying on knock sensors, your tuning isnt good.


I'll have to respecfully disagree on this one...
While I do generally subscribe to the KISS principle, I tend to think that a knock sensor is worthwhile...
I agree on the piont that you shouldn't rely on your knock sensor to determine when and how much to pull timing, but I think it make a good safety net....Since you aren't in control of many of the variables that affect combustion (at least I'm not -- altitude, ambient temp, fuel grade/quality), I think running a knock sensor is sane..
Though it doesn't prevent the first knock, it does prevent subsequent knocks....which would often be worse than the first. 
Yes, it is more wiring and complication, but knock sensors are pretty reliable in my experience. 

-Steve


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (Stephen Webb)*

i dont think its stupid to use a knock sensor, but i dont think its stupid not to use one.
ive tuned my car at 18psi to 255hp. stock ABA motor with 2 gaskets. I mean thats nothing spectacular, but its a daily driver, and ive taken it on 6 hour road trips, and MANY 3 hr road trips. I taken it to the drag strip, and drive it EVERY day. No knock sensor either, and I get about 23mpg. Again, nothing spectacular, but its good.
Im just talking from my real world experience and from what Ive heard from about 3 other people that I talk to all the time.


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost ('89gli)*

My total was at 32, I have since turned it to 30, so that at 12 PSI I am at 18 Total, and at 15 I am at 15 total. 
Piston: I am going for around 17 PSI, when I get to the dyno.
Power, who knows, something liek one billion horse power.








I dont know i am just going to tune it and time it to the max torque and see where it is. I am hoping for above 350.
As far as the knock sensor goes, I use it to see if the sensor is seeing knock. I cant hear that well in my cabin with an external so I use it for reference. It gets kind of confusing though due to its sensitivity.


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## Holy Piston (Oct 24, 2003)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (mattstacks)*

Your expectations sound totally realistic and with that conservative timing and a good a/f I don't see why you would'nt hit that 350+whp with your setup,and have a reliable car as well.My friends car after 4 mos. of abuse at the track and street finally started giving too much blowby,but it was a gradual increase,until it got to the point oil is shooting out,so we know it is rings/cracked ringlands,so we are going forge piston/ARP,8.0:1 now.Be careful and good luck.VR motors are not cheap to build up.


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (Holy Piston)*

Yea, i have allready rebuilt this one twice. First was to start with a fresh motor, second was after I spun a couple of rod bearings. 
The next time I am going with forged pistons and probably rods, then its 20-25PSI on em. 
I am hopping to get through this season, with the motor intact then tear it down in the winter. 


_Modified by mattstacks at 3:08 PM 3-2-2004_


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: Where is your total timing during boost (mattstacks)*

i'm running 10-12 psi on 18 degrees advance. with a knock sensor installed and it has yet to go off. I can up the timing to 20-21 if I want to but i'm keeping it safe on 93 octane.


_Modified by tyrone27 at 1:17 PM 3-2-2004_


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## 81 vw pickup (Dec 21, 2001)

i run 26deg at 25 lbs of boost on c-10.....
and 28 degrees on c16....


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## MeGaMoNk_turbo (Apr 21, 2001)

*Re: (81 vw pickup)*

if your compression is 8:5 to 1 then you should still have space to run more timing. definitely run it on the dyno to seen the gain by uping the timing 1 degree at a time. pretty much what speed runs for timing at 23 degrees is right on. i'm runing more than that on my setup up at 15 psi pump gas and have had no problems. good luck and keep us updated. with race gas you will have more of a safety margin also. might wanna consider running some after 15 psi.


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