# TT-RS intercooler options - Off the shelf or DiY?



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Hi, I am evaluating intercooler options for my TT-RS (Stage 2 UM tune, full turbo back exhaust, decatted). I am looking for an intercooler which will support my current Stage 2 tune and have some headroom for a hybrid turbo (Loba?) or even a full "Stage 3" turbo upgrade (APR or maybe a full custom setup). Here are the options which I have found so far:

APR - Awesome product, but overpriced for what you actually get. Performance should be the best of the off the shelf options.
Forge - Street version is overpriced and has been eclipsed by newer offerings. Race version is on par with APR, but then so is the price. Since the price is the same, why not just go APR since APR's setup is arguably a little nicer, with a slightly larger intercooler core.
Wagner - Street version can be found cheap, but not sure how much of an upgrade it really is over stock. Probably doesn't provide headroom for Stage 2+. Race version is a little cheaper than APR, but I don't like how it uses the intercooler as the crash bar.
AWE - The cast end tank version is price competitive. However, since it fits below the crash bar, I am not sure how much headroom the (very) thick core provides. Can the AWE unit handle Stage 2+ or even Stage 3 power levels?
Pro Alloy - Looks like a nice offering along the lines of the the AWE intercooler or other "street" offerings. Not sure whether anyone sells them in the US though. If not, shipping would be too expensive.
Custom - Universal intercoolers from Treadstone or Garrett are much less expensive than any of these custom products. A large Treadstone intercooler is about $325-$350. The equivalent Garrett is about $500. Even going to a 900HP Garrett would only be $775. Building/welding up a replace crash bar with intercooler mounts looks to be a fairly easy project. Since I don't have a Tig welder or Al spool gun setup for my Mig welder, I would build the crash bar froin either plain steel or stainless steel, I have tackled much more complex fabrication jobs, so it is very tempting to save 50% over the APR intercooler going the DiY path.

Of course none of these vendors with TT-RS specific intercoolers publishes flow numbers (CFM, pressure drop) for their products. That would make it a lot easier to compare them to the universal intercoolers and make a more informed decision.

So do I go the custom route or is one of the options "the way" to go? I am looking for performance, but also bang for the buck! Though I own a TT-RS, I don't currently have a lot of extra cash for car improvements and I am definitely not "rich".

Anyone tested these intercoolers objectively? 
Anyone have feedback/experience to share from real world usage of these products?

Thank you


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

AWE does publish the info you're requesting. I'm certain they have all kinds of other data on it that hasn't been published. Give them a call.

http://www.awe-tuning.com/tt-rs-front-mounted-intercooler


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## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

I've been considering the same. It would be easy to have one made locally, but after looking at all the options, I'm ordering an AWE. Anything modifying the crash bar is not something I'm going to chance with the way insurance is here in Ontario. The AWE seems to be within 10% of the APR in size and makes the best use of the space available under the license plate. 

AWE:
"Our final dimensions are 6 x 5.785 x 22” without including the end tanks. Translation: 80% more cooling area"

APR
3.00" x 12.70" x 22.25" "92% larger core compared to stock"

OEM intercooler core dimensions 3.19" x 6.38x" x 21.75"

So you can see if you assume the AWE and APR use roughly identical core designs, they aren't very different overall. You either get twice as deep or twice as tall. For cooling effectiveness, the APR probably is better if you are OK with all the trade offs. For flow the AWE may even be the same or less restrictive with a more straight through design opposed to the APR because the air isn't making a bunch of 90 degree bends to go up and through the tall thin core.


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## Brd.Prey (Oct 25, 2012)

I am considering the same thing. I have a TTS but I have the TTRS grill. So the hoses are the only issue I would have a problem wit. I do have a TIG Welder and a MIG with an Aluminum Gun.

Make we can work something out. I have already been kicking around a few crash bar designs. We are you located?

Ed


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## Brd.Prey (Oct 25, 2012)

This looks like it would work, downside is endtanks would need 90 turn


Latest release to the Treadstone intercooler line up is the TR11 intercooler. Perfect size intercooler for many turbocharged applications on 4cyl's under 600hp. Only 3" thick compared to our standard 3.5".This intercooler features a divided inlet to help route air to the top of the intercooler, eliminating heat soak at the bottom of the intercooler, and dispersing the air more efficiently. 

Treadstone Intercooler features superb quality highly efficient bar and plate construction. Our quality cast end tanks ensure evenly distributed airflow and low-pressure drop. Our intercoolers are pressure checked to 150psi and come with a 1-year warranty against manufacture defect. Our internal fin structure features high heat-dissipating internal fin design with our medium dense fin structure. The external fins are louvered, standard among all of our intercoolers.






Core Size, 11" X 21.5" X 3" 
Overall length 28.5" 
2.5" inlet/outlet 
Features a divided Inlet plate 
860 CFM flow rate 
560 HP efficient 
Less than 1.5 psi pressure drop


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Brd.Prey said:


> Latest release to the Treadstone intercooler line up is the TR11 intercooler. Perfect size intercooler for many turbocharged applications on 4cyl's under 600hp. Only 3" thick compared to our standard 3.5".This intercooler features a divided inlet to help route air to the top of the intercooler, eliminating heat soak at the bottom of the intercooler, and dispersing the air more efficiently.


I heard that the Black Briar upgrade will be much better than Treadstone 

(nothing to see here, please move along)


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## R5T (Apr 7, 2010)

I did understand from someone in Germany, that the AWE TT RS intercooler had a lot of presure drop.
He did returned to his OEM cooler because of beter performance.

MTM has clips for the OEM IC make it more boost compatible.

http://www.mtm-online.de/en/Audi/TT...attro-Coup?FZID=TTRS8J250Q&KIT=m-ttrsverstllk


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## Brd.Prey (Oct 25, 2012)

JohnLZ7W said:


> I heard that the Black Briar upgrade will be much better than Treadstone
> )


cant find that?


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## 311-in-337 (Feb 19, 2003)

I am running the AWE intercooler.

-perfect fit and finish. AWE is a great company. :thumbup:


Didn't someone in an older "intercooler" thread post up a chart with all the TTRS intercooler options? Dimensions and other stats were compared.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

311-in-337 said:


> I am running the AWE intercooler.
> 
> -perfect fit and finish. AWE is a great company. :thumbup:
> 
> ...


Thanks for all of the replies!

I have made notes of all of the sizes that I could find. The issue is that the data which is published by APR and AWE doesn't lend itself to really making a data driven comparison/decision of performance vs cost. AWE only publishes a couple of charts which show hp gain and IAT decrease over stock. APR publishes data which does show that their unit will support their Stage 3 kit and resist heat soak, but again not the right type of data useful for comparisons. One can't compare the IAT decreases between AWE and APR, because the test conditions weren't the same.

In an ideal world we would have flow in CFM, pressure drop, and intercooler efficiency data/metrics.

*Options*
DiY $500 (data is readily available)
AWE $1000 (well made product, but not clear that the deep intercooler design works as claimed past their Stage 2 SW)
APR $1600 (well made, relatively expensive vs what you get, shown to be effective at higher HP levels)


Is the AWE unit "good enough" to support 500+hp? I will have to give AWE a call and see what they have to say. 


Is it me or does the MTM website have the least amount of product information possible? I don't see myself buying anything from them, since they charge at least 2x what competitors charge for similar upgrades, but one would think they could publish a picture to two of their parts.

Thanks again


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## trichards69 (Feb 8, 2012)

*I have a forge unit for sale...*

I have a forge Ttrs ic for sale. It's powder coated black I had it on my car up until last month when I started a project with awe. Dm me for details


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## Brd.Prey (Oct 25, 2012)

I just got off the phone with Gerhardt, He said roughly $900.00 for a custom intercooler for our car. 3" core, I told him we had 22" x 12" but he said we would do better if we could find a little more room as that wasn't quite enough for 600 HP which was a good target goal to have some extra room in the intercooler.

Looks like a quality unit, He said no problem mounting the tubes toward the engine and putting a mounting bung where ever we need it.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Brd.Prey said:


> I just got off the phone with Gerhardt, He said roughly $900.00 for a custom intercooler for our car. 3" core, I told him we had 22" x 12" but he said we would do better if we could find a little more room as that wasn't quite enough for 600 HP which was a good target goal to have some extra room in the intercooler.
> 
> Looks like a quality unit, He said no problem mounting the tubes toward the engine and putting a mounting bung where ever we need it.


So $900 plus a little fab work to build a new crash bar and intercooler mount... Not a bad deal at all. 

Thanks for the reference! 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

hightechrdn said:


> So $900 plus a little fab work to build a new crash bar and intercooler mount... Not a bad deal at all.
> 
> Thanks for the reference!
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


At that point just get the APR unit. They also include the little things like the horn and air temperature sensor relocation brackets and wiring extensions, and the fit and finish is top notch. Unless you enjoy doing the custom fab work, factor in the cost of your time rigging up your own solution as well and it will likely not have the right fit in the end. The APR one fits with literally millimeters of clearance to the bumper in multiple locations. Good luck getting that right without multiple tries...


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## 1QWIKWHP (Oct 19, 2012)

Marty said:


> At that point just get the APR unit. They also include the little things like the horn and air temperature sensor relocation brackets and wiring extensions, and the fit and finish is top notch. Unless you enjoy doing the custom fab work, factor in the cost of your time rigging up your own solution as well and it will likely not have the right fit in the end. The APR one fits with literally millimeters of clearance to the bumper in multiple locations. Good luck getting that right without multiple tries...


Exactly...I just got my APR IC installed the other day and the fit and finish is bar none:thumbup:


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## Brd.Prey (Oct 25, 2012)

You two guys are forgetting I have a TTS with a TTRS grill! They don't know if I can use APRs yet. Besides are you guys like DEBBIE DOWNERs or what. I agree that APR is real nice but 600 or so just for a crash bar, that I can whip out wiht my TIG welder. Besides I already relocated my horns.

Ed


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## Brd.Prey (Oct 25, 2012)

Also sometimes its fun to make stuff yourself instead of using something off the shelf.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Brd.Prey said:


> Also sometimes its fun to make stuff yourself instead of using something off the shelf.


Great points! 

The APR intercooler is a nice design and well made. However, it is over priced. They justify the costs base on the low production numbers for the TTRS, but there are a lot more TTRS in Europe.... 

Building something like this is very doable for a part time/home fabricator. Also, one could try to work in a 3.5in deep intercooler, with a different crash bar design. 

Going back to the AWE intercooler... Do they keep IAT's down on the track, running Stage 2 (or higher) power levels in the summer heat? If they work under those conditions, then that seems like the best option for those not looking to go to Stage 3.

Thanks 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


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## Brd.Prey (Oct 25, 2012)

The intercooler guy I talked to yesterday said 1/4 mile was the toughest on street cars. He said the temp is tough to keep down by the end of the track. Surprised me anyway.


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

hightechrdn said:


> Great points!
> 
> Going back to the AWE intercooler... Do they keep IAT's down on the track, running Stage 2 (or higher) power levels in the summer heat? If they work under those conditions, then that seems like the best option for those not looking to go to Stage 3.


I haven't had any issues with multiple track days in the dead of summer. The AWE unit has never let me down.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Black BeauTTy said:


> I haven't had any issues with multiple track days in the dead of summer. The AWE unit has never let me down.


Have you logged or monitored IAT's during your track sessions? 

Based on your experience, the AWE intercooler is a valid option, at least for those not going Stage 3. For full Stage 3 or those running hybrid turbos, more real world data/experience is needed. Unless someone has already done so? 

Thanks 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

I've had air intake temps in view for nearly 3 years with oem,Forge road and now APR.
The APR cooler is in a different league to the other two .
With the oem it's easy to get temps at over +40c ambient,the Forge 25c+ ,whilst the APR stays mainly between +3 - +15c,and these are temperatures at high speed on the autobahns where the car is getting plenty of fresh air.
On track the smaller coolers will struggle even more as the recovery rates are very slow.
I've also tried different air intakes.
The car had standard maps with the oem and Forge,then stage 1 and 2 with the Forge.The car has always been stage III with the the APR cooler.
In the next week or so,I'll be replacing the current VWR intake with a large custom made air intake system,whether or not that will effect air intake temps,we will have to wait and see.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

jaybyme said:


> I've had air intake temps in view for nearly 3 years with oem,Forge road and now APR.
> The APR cooler is in a different league to the other two .
> With the oem it's easy to get temps at over +40c ambient,the Forge 25c+ ,whilst the APR stays mainly between +3 - +15c,and these are temperatures at high speed on the autobahns where the car is getting plenty of fresh air.
> On track the smaller coolers will struggle even more as the recovery rates are very slow.
> ...


Thank you for the detailed response. Sounds like the APR unit is definitely a good solution, it a pricey one.

The AWE and Forge Street have very similar core sizes, so that gives some hints about how the AWE unit compares to the APR. The AWE is going to be better than OEM, but the ~6" thick core size could hurt airflow/heat transfer. However, I am still not sold that the extra 50% in cost is exactly good value for the money compared to the AWE. I guess it depends whether one is optimizing for all out performance or performance/Dollar (or Euro). 

The DiY route is looking better and better, if I can find the time...


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## jpkeyzer (Aug 24, 2011)

See detailed pictures of my AWE Tuning intercooler installation and comparison to the stock intercooler here:

*Audi TT-RS AWE Tuning Stage II Tune Build (with pictures!!)*


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Here is a break down I did some time back. We have the largest intercooler, especially when it comes to frontal surface area, which is one of the most important items.



[email protected] said:


> <table>
> <tr>
> <td><b>Intercooler</b></td>
> <td><b>Crash Bar</b></td>
> ...


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

Running the k16 to the edge of it's life does require more intercooler as the delta Ts are higher. The gentleman that commented on the delta's above ambient being much smaller on the APR unit, but only testing it on stage 3 on a very, very efficient 5862 GTX3576r.. Well yeah, that is to be expected. Yes, more cross sectional flow is needed on the internal flow of the intercooler to put up with twice the airflow demands but that is a turbo/compressor designed to work well at higher pressure ratios of 30psi. It isn't going to be the heat pump most of these Stage 2 and 2+ software packages are. Dumping .70-.73 lambda at the motor just to keep EGTS and detonation at bay. A big intercooler is really just a bandaid for a small turbo.

Most of cooling on any intercooler happens in the first 6-9 inches, so claiming frontal area as a squaring function is a little unfair. Yes, the second row of 3" tubes behind the first 3" is not going to be as efficient at pulling heat out of the charge, but the good news is the back half has 22 inches worth of tube length. After those initial 6-9 inches, the air in the front tubes are not pulling heat out in big deltas, and the back rows start to get clean ambient. Cross section of the flow side is what dictates power potential so a 6x6" core is 36 inches squared, and a 3x12.7 is 38.1 inches squared. If cores are considered equal, they have ~the same CFM capacity. All intercoolers have a "flange" around the edge that makes it easier to weld. It is usually around 1/4" thick where no flow happens. So a 6x6 core would have an effective 5.5x5.5 flow area and a 3x12.7 would be more like a 2.5x12.2. If you run those figures, they are ~30.25in^2 vs 30.5in^2. 

I wish overall weight was included in that table. There is no such thing as an overkill intercooler within reason on an engine dyno. There is such thing as an overkill on a road race car on a front heavy car like the TTRS. 

No affiliation to any of these vendors btw. Happy DIY or purchasing.


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

Smart man above…listen closely!


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