# Can't get these damn cams timed right, what the crap.



## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

So I'm in the middle of re-assembling my engine and can't get these cams timed right to save life. After messin with em for a couple of hours I was getting pretty mad, So I took some pics to post on here in hope I could get some guidance. It's an AEB if it matters.

Pre caps



































I have 16 links (rollers) between the 2 windows on the cams.
But when I put the cam caps on the arrow on the 1st cap down's match to the windows on the cam.
Post caps.













































I've taken everything off and restarted from the beginning 3 of 4 times now. There isn't anything I did my last that I did my 1st time.
Does anybody have any tips or tricks?


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

1: I seem to only count 15 roller pins between the cam gear timing notches?? But I could be wrong. It is hard to tell because of the angle of the Camera. It would be easier for us to view if you mark the start and end pins with white paint. BTW, it is *16 ROLLER PINS* between the cam notches ( As per Bentley) . Not links. You start with the intake side. Line up the notch on the cam with the arrow on Intake cam cap. 

2: Then you line up the exhaust cam notch with *16 roller pins* between the Intake cam gear notch.. Here is the important part: * " The notch on the exhaust cam shaft is slightly offset inward toward the drive chain roller " * ( Quoted from Bentley manual page B 15-21). I find that very confusing wording. You have to think about it for a bit. 

A better wording I hope ( mine ): *With a NEW chain*. The notches on the cams will line up with the cam cap arrows... but the 1st chain roller pin will be offset to the left of the exhaust cam notch and arrow. With a * USED and stretched chain *, the exhaust cam gear NOTCH will also be offset slightly to the left. The older the chain the more the offset.

Why VW/AUDI did this I don't know. It is confusing. Personally I think it was a Frack up between the design team and the engine tooling team on the drawing board. The easiest ( IE: Cheapest )way to deal with this was to alter the service manual drawing to show an offset. Both sides were probably too bloody arrogant to admit that either one of them made a mistake. :banghead: Just my opinion..

3: When you release the cam chain tensioning tool, hold the Intake cam gear in place. The exhaust cam should now rotate towards the intake cam, aligning the exhaust cam notch, as the cam chain tensioner releases. EDiT: ( Removed confusing wording )*. You can not check final timing properly with the Cam Chain Tensioning tool compressed. *

There are numerous thread with pictures about this. I'm sure that the FAQ has some good ones. BTW, the Bentley manual is very poorly illustrated.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Here's a good picture of correct timing. Note the *16 Roller Pins* marked with white paint. Also note how the upper cam chain guide rotates the Exhaust cam towards the Intake cam with the tensioner tool removed ( You have to use your imagination ) . Less obvious in this picture is that the offset of the #1 roller pin in relation to the exhaust cam gear notch.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Here's another picture from Bentley. Later illustration with better correlation of #1 roller pin offset:


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## STOICH (Jun 21, 2010)

Those pictures look like it's in time. Using your exhaust cam shot to id where the start of the count is, I got this...


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

Chickenman35 said:


> When you release the cam chain tensioning tool, hold the Intake cam gear in place. The exhaust cam should now rotate towards the intake cam as the cam chain tensioner releases. The Exhaust cam timing notch should STILL be offset to the left of the exhaust cam notch ( with the Intake cam gear notch lined up directly with the Intake cam cap arrow ), but the offset will not be as much. *You can not check final timing properly with the Cam Chain Tensioning tool compressed. *
> 
> There are numerous thread with pictures about this. I'm sure that the FAQ has some good ones. BTW, the Bentley manual is very poorly illustrated.


I did scan through the FAQ and googled it. I must have missed it, I'll check again.
Sorry for the crappy pics, but it's dark, I only have 1 light in my garage and I was using my led maglight to help my phone camera see better. But trust me, there's 16. I'll see if I can get a better pic today.
I have a bentley and completely understand how it should be. I know the exhaust is off setted and when looking at it from the passenger side, the 1st roller will be just left of the window and that the intake window is lined up with the 16th roller. and I know how to count. lol. I did take the tensioner off in previous efforts, but I guess in my frustration I forgot to take it off for these pics. However, I always put the cam caps on before removing the tensioner, I'll try remover the tensioner and holding the intake side like you described.

And I don't know how to paint the pics.



STOICH said:


> Those pictures look like it's in time. Using your exhaust cam shot to id where the start of the count is, I got this...


Perfect.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

So it looks like you're OK then? Is that a new chain or old chain? It doesn't take much stretch in those chains to alter the offset a bit more. 

I replaced my chain and chain tensioner at 208,000 km ( approx 129,000 miles ) as it was stretched and getting noisy. Surprised how little it had stretched when I compared the two chains, but it had thrown the cam timing off a bit and was enough to cause a chain rattle. It was definitely a lot tighter with the new chain and the timing notches re-aligned nicely. BTW, the old chain tensioner was just fine. Hardly any wear at all on the guides.


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

Chickenman35 said:


> So it looks like you're OK then? Is that a new chain or old chain? It doesn't take much stretch in those chains to alter the offset a bit more.
> 
> I replaced my chain and chain tensioner at 208,000 km ( approx 129,000 miles ) as it was stretched and getting noisy. Surprised how little it had stretched when I compared the two chains, but it had thrown the cam timing off a bit and was enough to cause a chain rattle. It was definitely a lot tighter with the new chain and the timing notches re-aligned nicely. BTW, the old chain tensioner was just fine. Hardly any wear at all on the guides.


I had my wife paint it so theres no guessing on STOICH's parts. He was right though.










I took off the tensioner and its the same. I replaced the tensioner, but not the chain. I thought it was the tensioner that was the faulty part. I thought the oil galleys in the tensioner became clogged over time, resulting in less oil pressure within, in return not letting the tensioner expand further and causing the chain to rattle.

I guess, I'll be replacing the chain to.


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## STOICH (Jun 21, 2010)

On something like this, never take someones word for it. Glad you marked/counted yourself; gives more confidence that its truly correct. Good work :thumbup:


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

Thanks bud. But its still off. Its becoming very frustrating.

A friend of mine said to replace the chain, because like what chickenman35 said, they do stretch. But he also advised to replaced the sprockets too. He couldn't give me a strait answer as to why. But, I mean, I guess, while I'm here.
Any thoughts on that?


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

My sprockets were in very good shape at 129,000 miles. They're made of pretty darned good material. You can inspect the " Root " of the teeth... the bottom of the " U " and see if there is any significant wear or undercutting of the tooth. It takes a really high mileage engine with poor oil maintenance to cause a significant issue. Do check it though to be sure.

Cam gear wear is more prevalent on American Muscle cars with high valve spring loadings and soft metal gears.


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

I've had it since 68K miles and turned around 153K when I pulled it. I didn't skimp out on the maintenance in the time I've had it.

If the chain stretched, couldn't that cause extra wear and the sprockets as well?


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

MÄDDNESSS said:


> I've had it since 68K miles and turned around 153K when I pulled it. I didn't skimp out on the maintenance in the time I've had it.
> 
> If the chain stretched, couldn't that cause extra wear and the sprockets as well?


Nope. Chain stretch by itself won't cause sprocket wear. Chain stretch is caused by elongation of the holes between the link plates and roller pins. Sprocket wear is caused by wear of roller pins themselves in contact area of sprocket tooth. Which usually doesn't happen with a good design, materials and lubrication. Two different things. One is a alternating Tension load which is high ( yanking of chain links ) and the other is rotational load which is low. 

Not saying that it can't happen and you shouldn't check for sprocket wear... but chain stretch is much more common than sprocket wear. The new sprockets are also going to have to be heated and pressed on with a Hydraulic press. Might be best to " let sleeping dogs lie " if they're in good shape. Just my .02c. :beer:


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

I wouldn't worry about the sprockets not even a little bit. Just replace the chain and try to time it. Marking the chain and cams takes the guess work out of it when reassembling. I'm sure you know that now but I always mark those and timing belts even though I have done them a million times...:beer:


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

I looked at the sprockets pretty good and there's no galling of any kind. I guess i'll just replace the chain.

While taking the caps on and off a dozen time these last few days I noticed something that seemed odd.

The front cam cap.










the inner face, where the seals seat against, it's not the same as the head. it's beveled backward at about 45* with about a 2mm toe. Is it suppose to be like that?


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## STOICH (Jun 21, 2010)

Do what makes you feel comfortable. My marks were offset very similar to yours (hard to tell through pictures) and I didn't hesitate to run it as-is.


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## liloldbie (Jun 23, 2007)

Your cams look to be in time to me. Good work, head looks clean as well.


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

liloldbie said:


> Your cams look to be in time to me. Good work, head looks clean as well.


I assure they are not good. The exhaust window at about 11 o'clock, in relation to the arrow on the cap cap. However, the intake aindow is just the opposite. It at about 1 o'clock, in relation to the arrow on the cam cap. AND YET I have 16 rollers between the 2 points. I'm just going to replace the chain.

Thanks, I had it checked, decked, cleaned and rebuilt.


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## Audi_Mechanic (Mar 24, 2012)

don't worry too much about alignment of the arrows and windows, as someone said earlier Audi probably fuuckd up in manufacturing. You just need to make sure that the exhaust belt sprocket and crank pulley are properly timed and that you have 16 rollers between the cam windows. The windows should be close to the arrows on the cam caps but don't be too worried if they're a little off.


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

The arrows are not in the window at all.


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## Audi_Mechanic (Mar 24, 2012)

I know how frustrating it can be, but don't worry about it. Its a stupid design. Just make sure you have proper crank and exhaust cam timing and 16 rollers. If you look at the alignment of the arrow and the sprocket tooth, you're off by no more than half a tooth. So no matter what you do, you will NEVER be perfectly lined up. ALL 1.8t's are the same way and NONE line up perfectly. the timing mark for the belt sprocket does't line up perfectly with the mark on the valve cover either, you just need to have the marked tooth lined up with the valve cover. If you're not confident with the situation then take it to a repair shop so they can be responsible for it.

the exhaust cam never moves, it stays static with the crankshaft. so dont worry about its chain timing marks. the intake cam is the one that moves when the adjuster gets regulated, which is why having 16 rollers is important. You can add a roller (17) and your timing marks will be off. you can remove a roller (15) and your timing will be off. 16 gets you the closest and is what audi specifies.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Silly question...and I'm sure you've tried this...buuttt.

You mentioned that the Exhaust notch ( window ) was at 11 o'clock and the Intake notch at at 1 o'clock. They didn't look that far out too me once removing the tensioning tool was removed. The later pictures with cam caps off ( and no tensioning tool ) appear to be closer. Looks like chain stretch to me. With a new chain those windows will both line up bang on at 12 o'clock. 

However, have you tried rotating the exhaust cam 1 tooth clockwise. Still maintain the 16 links between the Intake and exhaust, juts rotate the exhaust cam 1 tooth towards the Intake. 

I think it is going to be too much. But you never know. And if you've already done this then it just leaves chain stretch as the culprit. Hang in there!! :thumbup::beer:


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Audi_Mechanic said:


> I know how frustrating it can be, but don't worry about it. Its a stupid design. Just make sure you have proper crank and exhaust cam timing and 16 rollers. If you look at the alignment of the arrow and the sprocket tooth, you're off by no more than half a tooth. So no matter what you do, you will NEVER be perfectly lined up. ALL 1.8t's are the same way and NONE line up perfectly. the timing mark for the belt sprocket does't line up perfectly with the mark on the valve cover either, you just need to have the marked tooth lined up with the valve cover. If you're not confident with the situation then take it to a repair shop so they can be responsible for it.
> 
> the exhaust cam never moves, it stays static with the crankshaft. so dont worry about its chain timing marks. the intake cam is the one that moves when the adjuster gets regulated, which is why having 16 rollers is important. You can add a roller (17) and your timing marks will be off. you can remove a roller (15) and your timing will be off. 16 gets you the closest and is what audi specifies.


Sorry I disagree. While VW/Audi could easily have made the design better ( Some simple Match marks for the chain on the outside of the gears as well as reference marks on the cam tower, like Nissan did on the L series engine ). I don't agree with your statement that the cam timing will never line up properly. If you're looking at old worn out engines everyday them maybe, but with new parts there is no way the marks will be out that far.

I've got the proof right in front of me. My 1998 AEB with 236,000 Km has PERFECT line up of the notches in the Cam Windows at 12 o'clock, 16 rollers between them and the Timing belt Cam gear mark aligns PERFECTLY with the factory notch on the valve cover.

All it takes is *brand new parts* and a little attention to detail.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Nissan did it the right way on there L series SOHC motors. They used a loooong chain back in the day ( T/Belts were unreliable and relatively new in the 70's ) and they knew that they would be prone to stretching over time. They used a VERY high quality DOUBLE ROLLER chain with true hardened forged rollers, not a single roller, stamped split rollers like Audi. The Audi chain is garbage compared to a Nissan chain.

The timing method for cams was ingenious. They made allowances for chain stretch over time. As the chain stretches it retards the cam timing. So they made the cam pulley with different offset locations to advance the cam. The teeth on the cam were marked with Position #1, #2 and #3 . The inside of the gear was marked correspondingly. When new, the timing marks were set at #1 position or 0 degrees advance . As the chain wore, it retarded the cam timing over time. To counter this you could change the cam timing position to #2, which advanced the timing 4 degrees, thus correcting the chain stretch. Since it was a very long chain they added #3 setting which advanced the timing 8 degrees. Those chains often lasted 250,000 miles before they ran out of adjustment.

They also put a handy adjustment window on the can tower that matched special marks on the backside of the cam gear. As long as the numbered arrow ( 1, 2 or 3 ) lined up somewhere within the range of the window ( about a 5/16" long ) the chain was still in spec. If it was out of range then you moved the timing to the next position ( #2 or #3 ) to correct the chain slack ). 

And as Nissan used hardened dowels pins, you could get offset bushings to degree in the cam even more precisely if you wanted.


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## Audi_Mechanic (Mar 24, 2012)

disagree all you like, but the drawing that YOU posted from a bentley manual shows that the window on the exhaust cam doesn't line up with the roller gap in the chain sprocket and is a little off-set. So all you are doing is disagreeing with the information you provided. 

Don't dare claim to know what I do. i've replaced/repaired many 1.8t's for oil sludge. many times the engines would come without belt sprockets or valve covers and i had to make sure the timing was correct when i transferred parts over. If the parts that you have in front of you are lined up, that's great. But writing a story about how great Nissan is, doesn't help the OP with their current issue. If not having timing chain marks perfect on 1.8t's was an issue, then i wouldn't have a job at a dealership cause i'd have many customers with bent valves and word spreads quickly about the quality of techs. 

Audi/VW timing chains ARE garbage, i agree with you on that. I was not however, telling the OP that replacing the chain wasn't necessary. No such advice was given on my part. All i was trying to do was give the OP advice so they wouldn't get too obsessed with the alignment issue. AGAIN, if exhaust cam and crank timing are correct with front timing marks, all that is left to worry about is that there are 16 rollers in between the windows on the sprockets. Earlier I didn't specify that the rollers needed to be in between the windows in the sprockets because it seemed to me that information was already posted in this thread. I apologize if my omission added confusion, but i was adding advice in-line with that given by others before me on this thread. Audi's repair manual is just as confusing and it points out that it doesn't all line up perfectly. It has a similar drawing as the one in the bently manual showing the offset at the exhaust cam, which can make you a nervous wreck when it comes to having to start the engine. the tensioner adds to the confusion by pulling the chain up and out of the plane of the cams and i sympathize with the OP's careful approach to their repair. No one wants to bend valves.


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## Audi_Mechanic (Mar 24, 2012)

I'm sorry chickenman, i misread your reply and got waaaaaaaaay to defensive. it's hard reading someone's tone on text and i sincerely apologize on how i reacted.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Apology accepted. I can assure you that no disrespect was intended, but I do know how hard it is to interprets tone in text messages. :beer:

As far as writing stories. Well, that's just my style and I like doing it. Too much time on my hands I guess :laugh:


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

AudiMechanic, I'm not trying to make it PERFECTLY in the middle of the window, but if I could just get both arrows in the window, I'd be happy.
Also, I've seen timing marks perfectly aligned, chain and belt, on these 1.8t engines. But, as chickenman said, new parts were used.

Any thoughts on this?










Its the front cam double cap, I don't know the actual nomenclature. that's the intake, the hall sensor goes over that.
It the inner face, where the seals seat against, it's not the same as the head. The heaad is a clean 90*, where as the cap is beveled backward at about 45* with about a 2mm toe. I don't know if it's just me, but it doesn't look right. Is it suppose to be like that?


Chickenman- You're right, they were much closer with the caps off and the tensioner on. I did try rotating it and it was to much. It was a mirror of the current problem. Exhaust was at 1 o'clock and the intake was 11 o'clock. lol. fml. I thought it was stupid of me to consider, so I didn't even bring it up. lol.

However, in the latest pictures, I tried timing it again in a similar way that has be suggested. I took it all out, removed the chain, lubed it up with some fresh oil then installed it all, but I did the intake side first. once torqued, I put the exhaust cam caps on, reepleased the tensioner, then torqued the caps. it appeared to have caused it to go further out of timing. So tomorrow i've going to try it the other way around.

If that doesn't do the trick, I'm just going to replace it, while I'm here. I have about 4K into this rebuild, so whats another $50.


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## Audi_Mechanic (Mar 24, 2012)

my writing tends to get wordy also. i dont like to give short answers to complex questions as i dont find it useful. I was however, very embarrassed by my post and tried to remedy it as soon as possible. :facepalm: Vortex website wouldn't reload and i was like NOOOOOOOOOOO! please work again so i can write a retraction!

the beveled edge on your intake cam shouldn't be a problem as long as the seal rides on the flat part of cam when installed. the bevel may be there to make the seal install easier, but don't know why its there. You can take off the front cap and temporarily install the seal as far in as it will go to make sure.

Double check the cam tensioner part #. While replacing the bank 2 tensioner on a 2.8 V6, i had recieved a bank 1 tensioner from my dumbass parts dept and was having timing issues when the engine ran. i redid the timing several times at the belt, removed cams and adjusted the amount of rollers a few times and still had timing issues. Spent a whole day on it because i thought the problem was me, had less than a year experience at the time. 2.8 has the same f'ed up directions and timing marks (2.8 cyl head similar to 1.8 but minus a cyl). turns out the bank 2 adjuster moves in the opposite direction so using a B1 ruins the timing. B1 and B2 look identical but the differences are internal. It didn't cause any damage but caused a whole lot of unnecessary melon scratching.


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

The only reason the cap really worries me is because I did an AEB swap and i'm afraid I put the AWP cap in it.
I could find any picture of the cap, AWP or AEB, to compare it to. So IDK if they are the same or not.

I got the tensioner from Parts geek and have never had an problem with them, but I'll double check the part number and hit up my local dealer for a cross reference.


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## Audi_Mechanic (Mar 24, 2012)

if the cam sensor part# is the same for AEB and AWP then the cam cap is probably the same or similar. The issue I see with the potentially swapped caps is that one was machined while on your specific aeb head and the other wasn't. This could lead to a burnt cyl head at the front cap since all of the caps double as the cam bearings. It may be no big deal but hopefully you have the correct cap installed.


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

I check that part number too and cross reference it with the dealer and see what I get.
thanks bud.:beer:


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## Mr.loops (May 27, 2010)

> A better wording I hope ( mine ): *With a NEW chain*. The notches on the cams will line up with the cam cap arrows... but the 1st chain roller pin will be offset to the left of the exhaust cam notch and arrow. With a * USED and stretched chain *, the exhaust cam gear NOTCH will also be offset slightly to the left. The older the chain the more the offset.


Thanks for posting this part! I'm just in the process of timing my cams on the head and experienced this exact issue (with a used chain). Sometime the Bentley manual fails here - they assume everyone is rebuilding the engine from scratch

I wonder if the ECU can throw a cam code if the chain stretched too much?


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