# :: ECS Tuning :: NEW!! MKI TT Performance Caliper Guide Bushing Kit



## ECS Tuning - Audi (Oct 12, 2009)

Your factory brake calipers slide on guide pins through rubber bushings. This design is adequate and widely used from the factory by Audi.

For more precise braking, bronze bushings and 304 stainless steel guide pins allow for a more positive feel at the pedal and more even pad wear.

The ECS Performance Caliper Guide Bushings are oil-impregnated to complement anti-seize, providing additional lubrication all of which is held in place by an integrated o-ring & dust cap. Working in concert with new stainless steel guide pins allows for much longer service life & less maintenance.


*Durable - Crisp*

*Click HERE to order or for more information*


Fits:
Audi MKI TT 225HP (2001-2006)

Be sure to check out our -----> _Installation PDF_ <-----

Let me know if you have any questions. 

Jason


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Those threads need to be formed and not cut like your machinist is doing. PM me for details but I had a set stretch threads where they would have failed at any time. This was after six track days.

Should be made from heat treated 17-4 Stainless.


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## 8vbunny (Oct 2, 2002)

ECS Tuning - Audi said:


> Your factory brake calipers slide on guide pins through rubber bushings. This design is adequate and widely used from the factory by Audi.
> 
> For more precise braking, bronze bushings and 304 stainless steel guide pins allow for a more positive feel at the pedal and more even pad wear.
> 
> ...


Those like awfully like the Tyrol sport ones......


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

8vbunny said:


> Those like awfully like the Tyrol sport ones......


Yeah... but without the quality of the Tyrol Sport ones.... 

Seriously the Tyrol Sport ones are really high quality, FORMED threads on the slide pins.

I'll trust my life in anyone's hands EXCEPT ECS at this point.


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## 8vbunny (Oct 2, 2002)

TheBurninator said:


> Yeah... but without the quality of the Tyrol Sport ones....
> 
> Seriously the Tyrol Sport ones are really high quality, FORMED threads on the slide pins.
> 
> I'll trust my life in anyone's hands EXCEPT ECS at this point.


Seems that is the trend these days, everyone copies but does not improve they just want to turn a quick buck.. :facepalm:

Cut 304 stretches like Noah mentioned. Heat treat 17-4 with formed threads rather than cut 304.. Would be a shame if anyone purchases these and gets hurt in the process..


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

8vbunny said:


> Seems that is the trend these days, everyone copies but does not improve they just want to turn a quick buck.. :facepalm:
> 
> Cut 304 stretches like Noah mentioned. Heat treat 17-4 with formed threads rather than cut 304.. Would be a shame if anyone purchases these and gets hurt in the process..


You never screw around with brakes! No aluminum adapters, no 6061 hats, no cut thread components. 

This is not a question of if, they will fail. Trying to sell a product like this to people without the understanding of what they are changing in the brake system and how to check it regularly for potential failures, is just asking four trouble.


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

8vbunny said:


> Seems that is the trend these days, everyone copies but does not improve they just want to turn a quick buck.. :facepalm:
> 
> Cut 304 stretches like Noah mentioned. Heat treat 17-4 with formed threads rather than cut 304.. Would be a shame if anyone purchases these and gets hurt in the process..


ECS seems to be the worst offender for copying parts with cheap components to make a buck... Leave it to day traders to cut corners and have no regard for people's lives. :thumbdown::thumbdown:




DeckManDubs said:


> You never screw around with brakes! No aluminum adapters, no 6061 hats, no cut thread components.
> 
> This is not a question of if, they will fail. Trying to sell a product like this to people without the understanding of what they are changing in the brake system and how to check it regularly for potential failures, is just asking four trouble.


Exactly. Of all the components on a car to cut corners on... Brakes are the last one I would. Your life and others literally depends on them.

There is a reason I never put my Wilwood setup on my car... Hint it involves the adapter material used.

Wonder how the day traders feel about law suits?


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## ECS Tuning - Audi (Oct 12, 2009)

The engineering department at ECS takes the quality and safety of our designs very seriously. We are carefully evaluating the concerns presented to us and reviewing our design and lab test data to ensure our design is robust enough to withstand the most severe operating conditions without safety concerns. We will respond with our findings as soon as possible. 

Jason


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## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

DeckManDubs said:


> You never screw around with brakes! No aluminum adapters, no 6061 hats, no cut thread components.
> 
> This is not a question of if, they will fail. Trying to sell a product like this to people without the understanding of what they are changing in the brake system and how to check it regularly for potential failures, is just asking four trouble.


:screwy:


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## dubtec (Sep 5, 2007)

ECS Tuning - Audi said:


> The engineering department at ECS takes the quality and safety of our designs very seriously. We are carefully evaluating the concerns presented to us and reviewing our design and lab test data to ensure our design is robust enough to withstand the most severe operating conditions without safety concerns. We will respond with our findings as soon as possible.
> 
> Jason


Jason,

This would be a great opportunity for you to resell our products. It is an easier and better solution for the issues mentioned above. :beer::thumbup: 

[email protected]


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

dubtec said:


> Jason,
> 
> This would be a great opportunity for you to resell our products. It is an easier and better solution for the issues mentioned above. :beer::thumbup:
> 
> [email protected]


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

TheBurninator said:


> ECS seems to be the worst offender for copying parts with cheap components to make a buck... Leave it to day traders to cut corners and have no regard for people's lives. :thumbdown::thumbdown:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds like you're a "Ya what he said, Im not really sure though so I will repeat what a vendor that sells a competing product says" guy. When really you nor him have tested this ECS product, so you know of its true quality how? Your Wilwood adapter used forged 6061 aluminum just like every other big brake kit. Verdict Motorsports that he is associated with or was sells a competing product to ECS so what do you think he is going to say...

And for Deckman, First off, almost all big brake kits where the caliper doesn't directly mount to the knuckle include hard anodized billet 6061 aluminum brackets, just did a quick search and every brand of 2 piece rotors I found (Wilwood, ECS, Adams, Brembo, Racing Brake, Stoptech) all use billet 6061 hats due to that materials superior heat dissipation, some use 7076 but not many. Also as far as Tyrolsport they dont even say what their pins are made of or finishing processes, at least ECS does... Though you may be onto something about the formed threads, however I would like to see pictures of these pins you supposedly had "ready to fail at anytime", because these arent under any torsional stress so I don't believe that 

Prove me wrong, show me examples of all these things you listed of "screwing around with brakes" :thumbup: Hows things at Verdict Motorsports?


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## SnakeEarl (Dec 11, 2013)

Deckman, what brand of bushings did you use? I would be complaining to that company. The threads on the slides should not be under stress to pull threads apart (no matter how they are formed) as they do exactly what the name suggests. They are to slide in and out of the bushings. If they are too tight they may be under stress, but braking would not be very good and be noisy as the calipers would have trouble moving. If they are way too loose, you would here some clunking and this would be more unsafe than stripped slide threads. The threads would most likely be stripped during installation when they are cross-threaded in. Do you have pictures of this product you purchased? They are not supposed to be under any major torsional stresses, but maybe you have awesome brakes that cause so much deceleration that it can pull threads?. Floating calipers should probably not be used for high performance track driving anyway? Many people just use stock slides with rubber bushings without issues for track days. I would recommend you take another look at your braking components and make sure they are not damaged. If the threads are being pulled, then there is definitely a problem with fitment in the bushing or major movement of your calipers which is not normal operation. Either that, or they were cross-threaded during installation. We could probably debate for many hours, but in the end we do not even know what brand of bushings were used or what caused the slide threads to supposedly stretch. What brakes are being used? What vehicle were these bushings installed on? What brand was used? What is a "track day"? Where are photos? Why post about a product that was not even used personally? Have the Tyrol bushings been tested under the same track conditions as the other brand you used? 
Aluminum is used in many performance braking parts. As with any performance part used for track purposes, the slides should probably be replaced regularly. Since you supposedly found when they were "close to failing", now you know when to replace them before failure occurs based upon how you track the vehicle. Your brake pads can only handle so much friction before they fail. Tests have shown rolled threads to be less than 10% stronger than cut threads. Do you think that 10% would prevent failure? You could do one more "track day."? Everything will fail over time. When using a vehicle on the track, parts on the vehicle must be constantly checked and maintained to prevent failure. There are so many assumptions being made in this thread.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

SnakeEarl said:


> Deckman, what brand of bushings did you use? I would be complaining to that company. The threads on the slides should not be under stress to pull threads apart (no matter how they are formed) as they do exactly what the name suggests. They are to slide in and out of the bushings. If they are too tight they may be under stress, but braking would not be very good and be noisy as the calipers would have trouble moving. If they are way too loose, you would here some clunking and this would be more unsafe than stripped slide threads. The threads would most likely be stripped during installation when they are cross-threaded in. Do you have pictures of this product you purchased? They are not supposed to be under any major torsional stresses, but maybe you have awesome brakes that cause so much deceleration that it can pull threads?. Floating calipers should probably not be used for high performance track driving anyway? Many people just use stock slides with rubber bushings without issues for track days. I would recommend you take another look at your braking components and make sure they are not damaged. If the threads are being pulled, then there is definitely a problem with fitment in the bushing or major movement of your calipers which is not normal operation. Either that, or they were cross-threaded during installation. We could probably debate for many hours, but in the end we do not even know what brand of bushings were used or what caused the slide threads to supposedly stretch. What brakes are being used? What vehicle were these bushings installed on? What brand was used? What is a "track day"? Where are photos? Why post about a product that was not even used personally? Have the Tyrol bushings been tested under the same track conditions as the other brand you used?
> Aluminum is used in many performance braking parts. As with any performance part used for track purposes, the slides should probably be replaced regularly. Since you supposedly found when they were "close to failing", now you know when to replace them before failure occurs based upon how you track the vehicle. Your brake pads can only handle so much friction before they fail. Tests have shown rolled threads to be less than 10% stronger than cut threads. Do you think that 10% would prevent failure? You could do one more "track day."? Everything will fail over time. When using a vehicle on the track, parts on the vehicle must be constantly checked and maintained to prevent failure. There are so many assumptions being made in this thread.


Good points. Being that they only lasted 6 days, replacing them after every two days would most likely been fine. However that is not very cost effective for long term. Not saying track days are not expensive, but some expenses can be slightly mitigated. Right now the current setup I run on my TT last about 20 hours for rotors and pads and around 80-100 hours on caliper rebuilds. I prefer having not to take things apart every couple track days if there is a way to make it more robust.

I only ran they Tyrol stuff as they were the original ones to come out with this, not another company trying to re-invent the wheel. I ran a early set and under my track use had issues. Info was passed onto Greg and Chris about this and they improved the design :beer::beer: If cut threads are only 10% stronger than rolled threads, then cut threads would work for head studs and be a lot cheaper  Having made a good bit of those for testing, they are all roll threaded post heat treat. Threading also can very a lot from the actual threading process of infeed of the insert, either putting stress into or weakening depending on this. This also can very depending on the depth of cut of the too and the exit.

Pretty much most of the adapters out there are cut threads in the 6061-T6, personally I use steel or in a bind 7075 in my personal cars, unless its my TT which I made from Titanium with 30+ track days on them using ARP Heat Treated 17-4 Hardware that is also Loctited in. While I have seen others failures of their aluminum adapters, I have not had a set in my hands other than one set of early ECS ones that the studs bent. 

Pressing in the brass bushings can also create cracks in the bushing itself depending on the press fit. This could cause the bushing to fail or size up causing one wheel to remain under full braking. The average skill of those buying and installing parts normally does not have say a lot of experience with failures across a large spectrum of different components in different fields. 

The stiffeners are a great upgrade for DE junkie that is not ready to spring for some non-sliding calipers (Porsche/Stoptech/Wilwood ect), however they do need to be watched more for street use, just like adjustable control arms/end links on the street as every junction or attachment point. 

ECS has done well for me in the past with plenty of parts and I am a very happy customer and I hope they continue providing a good service to the community. They did fix the keys on their billet crank pullies that were only engaging the crank key by .030" opposed to .090" of OEM.


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## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

DeckManDubs said:


> Pretty much most of the adapters out there are cut threads in the 6061-T6, personally I use steel or in a bind 7075 in my personal cars, unless its my TT which I made from Titanium with 30+ track days on them using ARP Heat Treated 17-4 Hardware that is also Loctited in. While I have seen others failures of their aluminum adapters, I have not had a set in my hands other than one set of early ECS ones that the studs bent.


What are you talking about now


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

kevin splits said:


> What are you talking about now


Over your head grasshopper :laugh:


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## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

DeckManDubs said:


> Over your head grasshopper :laugh:


Sounds like youre talking about wheel spacers in a thread about caliper bushings or are you addressing your previous comment about big brake kit brackets. I cant imagine titanium anything being safer for both wheel studs or caliper brackets. Im just not sure which one your talking about :thumbup:


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## ein (Feb 3, 2007)

^ Caliper adapters dude...


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

kevin splits said:


> Sounds like youre talking about wheel spacers in a thread about caliper bushings or are you addressing your previous comment about big brake kit brackets. I cant imagine titanium anything being safer for both wheel studs or caliper brackets. Im just not sure which one your talking about :thumbup:


I was talking about adapters as moving away from the floating caliper for better braking and reliability like this 

These are on my TT made from Forged Grade 5 Titanium to mount Boxster Calipers










:beer::beer:

FYI - I have no association or care to be associated with Verdict.


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## ein (Feb 3, 2007)

DeckManDubs said:


>


Nice paint pen...


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

kevin splits said:


> Sounds like you're a "Ya what he said, Im not really sure though so I will repeat what a vendor that sells a competing product says" guy. When really you nor him have tested this ECS product, so you know of its true quality how? Your Wilwood adapter used forged 6061 aluminum just like every other big brake kit. Verdict Motorsports that he is associated with or was sells a competing product to ECS so what do you think he is going to say...


You can see the threads in ECS's product clear as day. They are cut threads. So why would I risk my life or others to test someone else's product that I can tell from *pictures* is inferior than what I am currently running in two of my cars. :screwy: How about you give them a go and report back to me? Or should I just watch for an obituary?

As to the 6061 adapters; Have you ever seen what happens to 6061 after multiple heat cycles and stress? It splits along the grain line of the material. Not ideal for a high stress high heat application such as brakes.

There are ZERO verdict motorsport parts on my car, so not sure where you are getting your information from. Then again, I shouldn't expect anything less from someone who's posts are 99% banter in the FS sections. 

Someone who gets stumped by simple MAF codes doesn't deserve a say in this matter anyways :wave:


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

ein said:


> Nice paint pen...


Anything that has come loose on a track day gets marked, as well as a lot of things that could for easy checking between sessions.


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

DeckManDubs said:


> Anything that has come loose on a track day gets marked, as well as a lot of things that could for easy checking between sessions.


Great idea to keep an eye on things. Adding that to my routine on things. :thumbup:


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## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

TheBurninator said:


> You can see the threads in ECS's product clear as day. They are cut threads. So why would I risk my life or others to test someone else's product that I can tell from *pictures* is inferior than what I am currently running in two of my cars. :screwy: How about you give them a go and report back to me? Or should I just watch for an obituary?
> 
> As to the 6061 adapters; Have you ever seen what happens to 6061 after multiple heat cycles and stress? It splits along the grain line of the material. Not ideal for a high stress high heat application such as brakes.
> 
> ...


You have no idea what you are talking about. Formed threads are *marginally* stronger than cut at *BEST*. If that happens so often to 6061 then why does just about* EVERY* manufacturer of big brake kits use that material in their 2 piece rotor hats as well as caliper brackets? :screwy: 

Did you even read that thread? I dont think you could comprehend what that scan out meant... Wasn't simple MAF codes  It was a chunk of metal jammed into my cams from a garbage Eurojet product. Wouldn't expect any less from someone who's posts are mere guesses, assumptions, and H20 "hella-sick" GTG douchebaggery :wave:


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## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

SnakeEarl said:


> Deckman, what brand of bushings did you use? I would be complaining to that company. The threads on the slides should not be under stress to pull threads apart (no matter how they are formed) as they do exactly what the name suggests. They are to slide in and out of the bushings. If they are too tight they may be under stress, but braking would not be very good and be noisy as the calipers would have trouble moving. If they are way too loose, you would here some clunking and this would be more unsafe than stripped slide threads. The threads would most likely be stripped during installation when they are cross-threaded in. Do you have pictures of this product you purchased? They are not supposed to be under any major torsional stresses, but maybe you have awesome brakes that cause so much deceleration that it can pull threads?. Floating calipers should probably not be used for high performance track driving anyway? Many people just use stock slides with rubber bushings without issues for track days. I would recommend you take another look at your braking components and make sure they are not damaged. If the threads are being pulled, then there is definitely a problem with fitment in the bushing or major movement of your calipers which is not normal operation. Either that, or they were cross-threaded during installation. We could probably debate for many hours, but in the end we do not even know what brand of bushings were used or what caused the slide threads to supposedly stretch. What brakes are being used? What vehicle were these bushings installed on? What brand was used? What is a "track day"? Where are photos? Why post about a product that was not even used personally? Have the Tyrol bushings been tested under the same track conditions as the other brand you used?
> Aluminum is used in many performance braking parts. As with any performance part used for track purposes, the slides should probably be replaced regularly. Since you supposedly found when they were "close to failing", now you know when to replace them before failure occurs based upon how you track the vehicle. Your brake pads can only handle so much friction before they fail. Tests have shown rolled threads to be less than 10% stronger than cut threads. Do you think that 10% would prevent failure? You could do one more "track day."? Everything will fail over time. When using a vehicle on the track, parts on the vehicle must be constantly checked and maintained to prevent failure. There are so many assumptions being made in this thread.


:thumbup::beer:





TheBurninator said:


> Great idea to keep an eye on things. Adding that to my routine on things. :thumbup:


 Im sure you race


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

kevin splits said:


> You have no idea what you are talking about. Formed threads are *marginally* stronger than cut at *BEST*. If that happens so often to 6061 then why does just about* EVERY* manufacturer of big brake kits use that material in their 2 piece rotor hats as well as caliper brackets? :screwy:
> 
> Did you even read that thread? I dont think you could comprehend what that scan out meant... Wasn't simple MAF codes  It was a chunk of metal jammed into my cams from a garbage Eurojet product. Wouldn't expect any less from someone who's posts are mere guesses, assumptions, and H20 "hella-sick" GTG douchebaggery :wave:


There is more at play here than just cut threads vs formed threads. I didn't feel I needed to repeat those points as they have been stated. Material choice plays a larger role in this.

Companies are using 6061 as a material for caliper adapters and rotor hats because it is cheap to machine and cheap to buy raw materials. Or they don't have a full understanding of material properties. Probably a mix of all three.




kevin splits;88009983
:rolleyes: Im sure you race[/QUOTE said:


> You don't need to race to understand the benefits of making sure thing's don't come loose or shift position even on a street car, or daily driver. Sometimes those conditions are worse than the track. Keep trying buttercup


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## ECS Tuning - Audi (Oct 12, 2009)

First, we would like to thank *DeckManDubs* for bringing his concerns forward. We take safety very seriously, and appreciate your feedback. For all of our ECS engineered products we follow a very detailed design process that is structured to make sure that we are delivering the best product possible. This design process involves many phases which include research, development and design, prototyping and testing. Throughout this entire process our R&D department diligently considers any potential safety concerns, and adapts the design to mitigate these. Our Performance Caliper Guide Bushing set is no exception, having undergone extensive development prior to being released and we would like to explain some of our design considerations.

For this project, the first step taken was to evaluate and understand the boundary conditions of the floating caliper to caliper carrier. The stock rubber bushings are designed to allow for axial translation of the pin and while this is the only fully unlocked degree of freedom, the nature of the soft rubber allows for small translations and rotations in the other 5 degrees of freedom. Once installed, the bronze bushing changes how the pin can move. The pin will still maintain its axial translation degree of freedom, but since the bronze is much stiffer than the rubber and the tolerances are much tighter, the small translations and rotations of the other 5 degrees of freedom are almost completely removed. This reduces unwanted caliper deflection that results in uneven pad wear.
Next, we needed to understand the load path during braking, especially with regards to the slide pins and stock bushings. This evaluation showed that the forces transmitted into the brake system from decelerating a vehicle are transmitted directly from the pads into the caliper carrier, and that the slide pins and bushings experience minimal to no loading by design. As long as some simple brake maintenance best practices are followed, this load path will not change with the bronze bushings. 

For the slide pin design, we started by evaluating the stock ATE pins. We sent out a pin for a chemical composition test which confirmed that it was made of a 304L stainless steel. This OEM pin is manufactured using roll formed threads, which in some cases is shown to be slightly stronger than cut threads (on the order of 5 to 10%). However, roll forming is primarily used due to reduced production cost at higher volumes. Since the loading on the pins had already been evaluated and was found to be minimal, this additional strength would not buy the pins any advantage; therefore a cut thread was specified. The 304 stainless steel provides excellent corrosion resistance, which is a major factor that needed to be considered due to the slide pins exposed nature and location close to the road. To improve the fitment and functionality of our pins over the OEM pins, we specified a precision ground running surface held to much tighter tolerances. 
To design a bronze caliper bushing that would fit snugly in many different calipers, we needed to know the size of the bores in which this bushing would be installed. Through the inspection of dozens of calipers from many different applications, we observed that the bores varied in both size and shape such that there is no way to create one bushing that would have a satisfactory slip fit into all calipers. In the OEM application, this bore was intended to house a pliable rubber bushing and therefore never needed to be controlled tight enough for a slip fit. This is why we added a knurling feature to the outer diameter of the bronze bushings. This feature allows us to maintain a light press fit across a broader range of bore sizes. 

*Brake System Maintenance Best Practices *

As mentioned earlier in this post, it is always important to follow some brake maintenance best practices, particularly when using high performance bronze slide pin bushings. 

When switching from rubber to bronze bushings, it is important that you use a new set of brake pads. As described above, the rubber bushings allow for significant angular deflection of the caliper, which can often lead to uneven pad wear. Tapered pads will no longer have parallel front and back surfaces, and if installed with the bronze bushings can lead to binding of the caliper assembly and bending forces being imparted into the slide pins. 
We recommend that a high temperature brake lubricant be used on the back side of the pads where they will contact the caliper/piston, a common practice with all brake services. In a floating brake caliper, the force that is imparted into the pad transfers into the caliper carrier which is hard mounted to the suspension components. It should be noted however, that there is often a small amount of play (or clearance) between the pad and the load bearing slides on the carrier. This clearance allows the pads to move relative to the carrier as braking force is applied until they are fully seated, potentially transferring a small shear force in to the slide pins in the process due to the friction between the pads and caliper body/caliper piston. Once the pads have traveled through their play, they fully seat against the caliper carrier and the pins return to a state of no loading. Properly lubricating these contact surfaces minimizes the friction between pads and the caliper, thus minimizing any shear loading. 

The ECS Tuning bronze bushing design integrates both an o-ring seal, as well as a dust cap which work together to keep dust and debris from contaminating the lubricated pin and bushing, reducing the maintenance requirements of our bushings. It is still good practice to periodically remove the slide pins, clean both the pin and the bushing bore, and then reinstall the pin with fresh high temp brake lubricant. When completely ignored, regardless of whether ones brakes have bronze or rubber bushings, it is possible for the contamination to cause the slide pin to seize in the bushing. If this does occur, when the brakes are applied, instead of the caliper sliding on the slide pins the force will be transmitted to the pin as a tensile force (and possibly also a bending force if only one pin has seized).
As pointed out by *DeckManDubs* the use of a medium strength thread locker on the slide pin threads is also a good idea. While there exists varying opinions as to whether thread locker is truly necessary, by changing the material of the bushing, there also exists the possibility for additional vibrational energy transfer. Therefore the thread locker will add additional locking to the pins, without any negative effects. It is important to only apply a small amount as adding a thread locker to threads will change the coefficient of friction, and therefore alter the preload of the fastener if it is tightened to a specific torque.
If these best practices are observed, we are confident that our design offers the best value, durability, and performance possible in your factory braking system.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Well done guys, glad to see you guys looking into the Loctite :thumbup:


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