# Suspension Sagging - Coilovers Suddenly Out of Height Alignment?



## bkmintie (Mar 27, 2006)

Woke up this morning to pull my car out of the garage and noticed that my car's height alignment is off...
I'm running Vogtland Coilovers (height adjustable only).
Seems like the left side is about 2 inches higher.
Not sure what could of caused this as I haven't hit anything...
There's no damage (that I can see) to the suspension - and from a quick drive around my neighborhood everything seems normal...
Possibly just needs to be re-adjusted?
Do y'all think it's safe to drive? 
I want to take it into my local shop (where they were installed) but they aren't open until monday..


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## grubble (Oct 28, 2007)

*Re: Suspension Sagging - Coilovers Suddenly Out of Height Alignment? (bkmintie)*

Enjoy the Porsche for the weekend but I wouldn't drive on a height misaligned car til you take it to the shop. 
Is it just the right rear?


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

blown shock?


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## kgw (May 1, 2008)

*Re: Suspension Sagging - Coilovers Suddenly Out of Height Alignment? (bkmintie)*

Hop in and have your honey take a picture: bet it evens out!


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## Tcardio (Mar 19, 2009)

*Re: Suspension Sagging - Coilovers Suddenly Out of Height Alignment? (bkmintie)*

I'll bet any UCLA grad could tell ya


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## brungold (Oct 8, 2007)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *tcardio* »_I'll bet any UCLA grad could tell ya










LOL


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## grubble (Oct 28, 2007)

*Re: Suspension Sagging - Coilovers Suddenly Out of Height Alignment? (tcardio)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tcardio* »_I'll bet any UCLA grad could tell ya
















The throwdown begins!


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## VWAddict (Jun 12, 1999)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_blown shock?


How is this even possible?
A shock exerts ZERO upward or downward static force... those are the jobs of the spring and gravity, respectively.
Either spring-sag, cracked/broke turn on the coil, or re-settling in the perches, or a weld-break at the spring perch are my bets.
Keith


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (VWAddict)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAddict* »_
How is this even possible?
A shock exerts ZERO upward or downward static force... those are the jobs of the spring and gravity, respectively.
Either spring-sag, cracked/broke turn on the coil, or re-settling in the perches, or a weld-break at the spring perch are my bets.
Keith

You're wrong if it's a gas shock. 
IIRC the KW V1s, HPA SHS, Vogtland basics all use gas in the rear. 
Dave


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## VWAddict (Jun 12, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (crew219)*

Then it's not a damper... it's a spring.
A damper (the correct name for a 'shock absorber') will not push back once you compress it.
That goes for gas-filled and traditional designs.
Do not confuse it with gas-filled lifter struts for the hood, tailgate etc... "gas-shocks" have a gas charge in addition to the fluid, but it's not for springing purposes, it's for controlling aeration/'emulsification' effects... or that's what I understood, at least.
Keith


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (VWAddict)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAddict* »_Then it's not a damper... it's a spring.
A damper (the correct name for a 'shock absorber') will not push back once you compress it.
That goes for gas-filled and traditional designs.
Do not confuse it with gas-filled lifter struts for the hood, tailgate etc... "gas-shocks" have a gas charge in addition to the fluid, but it's not for springing purposes, it's for controlling aeration/'emulsification' effects... or that's what I understood, at least.
Keith

Lol, clearly you have never owned a set of bilsteins.
EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...lated ~50 seconds in
Dave


_Modified by crew219 at 10:52 AM 2/28/2010_


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## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
Lol, clearly you have never owned a set of bilsteins.
EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...lated ~50 seconds in
Dave

_Modified by crew219 at 10:52 AM 2/28/2010_

You trying to say the pressure in that shock is going to lift the car 2 inches? It only springs back when it bench tested, it doesn't have the force to lift the car.


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (Uber-A3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Uber-A3* »_
You trying to say the pressure in that shock is going to lift the car 2 inches? It only springs back when it bench tested, it doesn't have the force to lift the car.

No I am thinking that the right rear might have blown . . . causing the weight to shift onto the right side and lift the left side of the vehicle. Clearly you have never dealt with bilstein shocks either. 
Ever look at FSDs when they first came out? People complained about the rears lifting up too high. Koni made a change and went with twin-tube hydraulic shocks instead of gas shocks in the rear, and then the ride height leveled out. 

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_The rears are a high pressure mono tube like a Bilstein in the simple construction excluding the use of the FSD device. The amount the car raises is generally 10mm with a stock spring and would be a little less with a higher than stock spring rate. The Kit works quite well as I expect you have felt. The rears are currently high pressure gas as the twin-tube version of the 80 series for FSD is still in developement. I expect as time goes on they will be replaced with a twin tube hydraulic unit.


This is also the reason why my Vogtland adjustables (KW V2s) sit lower in the rear than the V1s/SHS/Vogtland basics that use gas rear shocks.
Dave
Lol wut?


_Modified by crew219 at 11:13 AM 2/28/2010_


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## bkmintie (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tcardio* »_I'll bet any UCLA grad could tell ya 









Dave/Keith:
Appreciate both of your feedback.
I'm not positive which wheel is malfunctioning. 
It could be as Dave said - the right rear has blown causing that side to shift down.
However, it looks to me that the left rear (driver side) is raised higher than what it was set to - of course this is coming off a visual gauge, nothing scientific. 
I'll get some more photos (profile-shots) up in a couple of hours.
Hoping this isn't going to be too expensive to fix...


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## VWAddict (Jun 12, 1999)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *Uber-A3* »_it doesn't have the force to lift the car.


+1.


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (VWAddict)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAddict* »_
+1.


_Quote, originally posted by *pyce* »_Dynoed them last night. No wonder people are reporting great comfort - these dampers offer the smoothest compression and rebound curves we have seen so far on VW dampers. More details next week, but the curves are really nice! And this is at the "low" frequency (standard dynometer) that the dyno can provide. I guess with increasing the frequency (decreasing the amplitude) they will get only better (lower damping in rebound).
Will try to drive them with different spring rates and different ride heights to see what happens.
*The rears are high pressure (about 40 lb. push by just the gas leverage)*, but the fronts are very low pressure (you can move them with fingers). Which makes me think they are not mono-tubes, but rather Bilstein-TC-like twin-tube with high pressure (but only rear). 


_Quote, originally posted by *SST* »_peter, you are right about the rears being high pressure. When I went to install them on my car, I had a hard time getting the FSD's on the lower bolts because I had lifted the the rear trailing arm at the wheel hub end with my jack, which meant the weight of the car was on the spring and consequently, the damper had to be compressed to get it into the lower bracket. The old TC came off pretty easy but to get the FSD in there, I had to rejack the car and let the trailing arm hang to get the FSD's in there. Sheesh!
*The pressure raises my car in the rear a good amount.* I think more than the TC's did. I recall that before my TC's, with the tired OEM dampers, the rear used to sag somewhat. The first thing I notices was how much the TC's raised the body. The FSD's almost make it look like a 4x4. Oh well!












_Modified by crew219 at 1:27 PM 2/28/2010_


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## bkmintie (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (crew219)*

Here's some profile shots:
Tried to get them the same distance apart and aligned properly.
Overexposed to help determining wheel gap.
Drivers Side:








Passanger Side:


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

I see nothing wrong in the two pictures you just posted up. 
Does the car still lean heavily towards one side in the back?


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## bkmintie (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_I see nothing wrong in the two pictures you just posted up. 
Does the car still lean heavily towards one side in the back?

Have to agree, looks like no real difference with these profile shots.
The driver side rear does seem much higher - not as much leaning down towards a side.
But you logic makes much more sense to me Dave - blown shock causing the car to lean down...








I'm guessing we won't really know until I take it to my shop tomorrow afternoon for a proper inspection.
I'll post up some 100% crops in a few minutes to see if we can determine a difference there...


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## TechnikSLR (Jul 30, 2008)

whats going on here is that your car is telling you that it wants to be much lower. you should always follow your cars wishes.


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## tdotA3mike (Feb 5, 2009)

*FV-QR*








hmmm


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## bkmintie (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (tdotA3mike)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdotA3mike* »_







hmmm 

I totally thought of this when first saw that my suspension was off








100% crops didn't really reveal anything - I'll post an update tomorrow when it's at the shop.
Thanks everyone for your help - hoping this doesn't end up being an expensive fix...


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## Tcardio (Mar 19, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (bkmintie)*

Word of advice: Don't mess with Crew219 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## terje_77 (Dec 19, 2005)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *tcardio* »_Word of advice: Don't mess with Crew219 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


More advice: Don't mess with Sasquatch.


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## tdotA3mike (Feb 5, 2009)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *terje_77* »_
More advice: Don't mess with Sasquatch. 


even more advice: don't mess with epic beard man


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## gCHOW (May 26, 2006)

*FV-QR*

so what was the final verdict? what was wrong, bk?


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## tp. (Nov 12, 2009)

whoa whoa whoa wat kind of fat girls u been driving in your car?
i suggest you use the sticker on the rear windows. so fat chix will know not to ride in it. amirite??


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (bkmintie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bkmintie* »_Mechanic called me today and said both rears are blown and that I should also replace my bump stops...
Working with Vogtland (there are in Valenica) to go on next week for an inspection for warranty coverage.
Update y'all from there - don't see how they wouldn't be covered under warranty as my installer is experienced (proper install) and there's been no incidents with my car that would cause such an issue...
2 blown shocks seems a bit crazy to me though...









Win!







(where's VWaddict / Uber?)
Vogtland has a 10 year warranty. Don't worry about it, it'll be covered. 
They normally replace shocks in axle pairs. If you only had one blown shock, they would replace the other one too.
Dave


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## tp. (Nov 12, 2009)

OHHH PWNEDDD
OOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhHHHHhhHhHhH~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

IN YO FACES oHHHH IN YO FAAAAAACCEEEEEEEEEEEEEE


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## VWAddict (Jun 12, 1999)

*Re: (tp.)*

In the video above, the amount of hand pressure required to FULLY compress the strut is tiny. -Less than 40lbs. -If <40lbs causes a car to sag THAT much, the springs ain't worth a damn. -Putting a Cocker Spaniel puppy in one of the rear seats wold cause the car to lean.
...Unless of course they've repealed some of Newton's laws, and I missed the memo.


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## gCHOW (May 26, 2006)

*Re: (VWAddict)*

how long did you have those coilovers for!? did you buy them new or used.....
considering you driving a 2009, im surprised those shocks died so quickly. you be doin some serious hooning.


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## bkmintie (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: (gCHOW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gCHOW* »_how long did you have those coilovers for!? did you buy them new or used.....
considering you driving a 2009, im surprised those shocks died so quickly. you be doin some serious hooning.

They've been installed for less than a year and were purchased new from PureMS (can't reccomend those guys enough http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif)
I wish I could say I've been participating in some serious "hooning", but 98% of my driving time is spent either in traffic or highway cruising. 
Interested to see the car when I pick it up today -hope to get a further explanation from my mechanic and maybe some photos.


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (VWAddict)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAddict* »_In the video above, the amount of hand pressure required to FULLY compress the strut is tiny. -Less than 40lbs. -If <40lbs causes a car to sag THAT much, the springs ain't worth a damn. -Putting a Cocker Spaniel puppy in one of the rear seats wold cause the car to lean.
...Unless of course they've repealed some of Newton's laws, and I missed the memo.









When the springs are only 450lb springs, 40lbs can make a significant difference








Physics ftl. 
Dave


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## VWAddict (Jun 12, 1999)

*FV-QR*

450lB/inch springs, 40lbs = one tenth of an inch.
In piston clearance terms that's definitely significant, but not to the degree shown in the picture above.
Math ftw.


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## tp. (Nov 12, 2009)

OHHHHHHHHHHHH E FIGHT!!!!~~~~~~~~


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (tp.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tp.* »_OHHHHHHHHHHHH E FIGHT!!!!~~~~~~~~

Lol wut?

_Quote, originally posted by *proshocks.com* »_Q: What are the two types of gas shocks and how does each function?
A: The two types of gas shocks are high gas pressure and low gas pressure, which incorporates a gas cell. The high gas-pressure system uses a mono-tube design, which means the piston uses the shock body as its cylinder wall. Any dent in the shock body and the shock will not function, because the piston will be pinched by the cylinder wall.
This design requires a second piston which floats in the cylinder to separate the gas from the fluid. Some high-pressure shocks don't use the second piston and the gas and fluid are not separated, leading to aeration. In these cases, the shock can be run with the shaft-end down only.
All mono-tube gas shocks use a high gas pressure which creates some problems for the race car. First, there's a false spring rate that causes problems. An example: When shock has 150 pounds of pressure at ride height, the pressure change is small when compressed or extended. When a spring with a 150-pound rate is compressed 3 inches from the ride height, the pressure resistance will increase by 450 pounds. What this means is that the 150 pounds of pressure in the high-pressure gas shock is a false spring, because it doesn't increase 150 pounds per inch as would a normal spring.
Additional, this gas pressure raises the center of gravity of the car while it is cornering. Here's what happens as you car goes through a corner: the outside of the car has 300 pounds of additional fixed-pressure resistance preventing it form compressing the spring as far as normal. The result is that the outside of the car goes down less and the inside of the car is raised higher, creating an unbalanced center of gravity. The lighter the race car, the more dramatic the change in the center of gravity will be from the high gas pressure.
*The High gas pressure thus raises ride height and also makes scaling the race car difficult due to the gas pressure acting as a false spring.* If it is this difficult to scale you car, imagine what difficulties might occur to your car on the track.


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## tp. (Nov 12, 2009)

ok so the pictures prove that the shocks were dead.
why u guys still arguing?


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (tp.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tp.* »_ok so the pictures prove that the shocks were dead.
why u guys still arguing?

Bingo.


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## krazyboi (May 19, 2004)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *tp.* »_ok so the pictures prove that the shocks were dead.
why u guys still arguing?


there's nothing else going on for a wed. afternoon..why not


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## gCHOW (May 26, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (krazyboi)*


__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view








great stuff.


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## VWAddict (Jun 12, 1999)

*FV-QR*

Nice post from proshocks.
Importantly, if you read carefully, you'll notice that it discusses dynamic force during cornering when quoting all those high numbers. The more astute and keen-eyed readers may also note that I very deliberately used the phrase 'static force'. Transient/dynamic forces exerted by shock absorbers (gas-charged or otherwise) are higher than any static force which -as confirmed in the above quoted post- is a spring force; nonlinear or otherwise.
If the rear springs on the A3 are in the order of 300lb/inch, and the car is an inch lower, the force difference is in the order of 300lbs, WHATEVER the root cause. No matter whether he car has gas shocks, blown shocks or NO shocks.
If the shocks don't require 300lbs of compressive force to FULLY close them, then they CANNOT cause such a difference in static conditions.
Under ANY circumstances.
And the first picture shows a vehicle under the most perfect definition of static conditions that I could imagine, unless it was a VERY skillfully taken photo indeed!


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (VWAddict)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAddict* »_Nice post from proshocks.
Importantly, if you read carefully, you'll notice that it discusses dynamic force during cornering when quoting all those high numbers. The more astute and keen-eyed readers may also note that I very deliberately used the phrase 'static force'. Transient/dynamic forces exerted by shock absorbers (gas-charged or otherwise) are higher than any static force which -as confirmed in the above quoted post- is a spring force; nonlinear or otherwise.
If the rear springs on the A3 are in the order of 300lb/inch, and the car is an inch lower, the force difference is in the order of 300lbs, WHATEVER the root cause. No matter whether he car has gas shocks, blown shocks or NO shocks.
If the shocks don't require 300lbs of compressive force to FULLY close them, then they CANNOT cause such a difference in static conditions.
Under ANY circumstances.
And the first picture shows a vehicle under the most perfect definition of static conditions that I could imagine, unless it was a VERY skillfully taken photo indeed!

And then you completely missed the fact that OP has blown shocks. Take away the gas pressure and you no longer have upward forces acting on the suspension from the shocks. 








So much fail. 
Dave


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## VWAddict (Jun 12, 1999)

*FV-QR*

Oh, for the love of god...
'Blown shocks' ...a catch-all term, if ever there was one.
I'll try to say this simply and clearly:
NO shock can possibly exert an upwards (lifting) force greater than the force required to fully compress it. -"Blown" or otherwise.
It will take a LARGE amount of force to lift one side of the vehicle more than the other to the degree shown in the above photo.
Multiply the difference in height by the spring rate, and you have the static force.
And if you'd please try to drop the _'So much fail'_ less-then-respectful attitude, we'd all have the chance to get along a little better.
Thank you.


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## tp. (Nov 12, 2009)

wat if i took my shock out of one of the rears and take a pic of it.
u guys willing to bet some $ on it i will take 20% comission fee for doing it.


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## bkmintie (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: (tp.)*

I think my improper description/perception of my suspension has something to do with this debate.
Picked up the car from my mechanic and he explained that only only shock is malfunctioning/"blown" - the passenger rear (his assistant made the mistake of saying both were blown over the phone).
Initially it seems to me that the driver's side rear shock was higher than what is was set at - while in fact it was at it's original height, and the passenger rear was in fact sagging.
Dave was correct in thinking that the passenger side was blown..
Apologies for my mistake... didn't mean to cause a heated debate here but I'm happy to know that you guys care about my car's shocks so passionately.








But really, thank you all for your input - this is why I became a member of vortex in the first place








I'll update the thread when the replacement has been made - as Vogtland placed the order today.


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## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (bkmintie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bkmintie* »_I think my improper description/perception of my suspension has something to do with this debate.
Picked up the car from my mechanic and he explained that only only shock is malfunctioning/"blown" - the passenger rear (his assistant made the mistake of saying both were blown over the phone).
Initially it seems to me that the driver's side rear shock was higher than what is was set at - while in fact it was at it's original height, and the passenger rear was in fact sagging.
Dave was correct in thinking that the passenger side was blown..
Apologies for my mistake... didn't mean to cause a heated debate here but I'm happy to know that you guys care about my car's shocks so passionately.








But really, thank you all for your input - this is why I became a member of vortex in the first place








I'll update the thread when the replacement has been made - as Vogtland placed the order today.

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## krazyboi (May 19, 2004)

*Re: (bkmintie)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bkmintie* »_this is why I became a member of vortex in the first place










http://forums.fourtitude.com/zerothread?id=3758077


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