# Snow tires and wheels - Consolidated Discussions



## bobschneider (Oct 12, 2004)

*Snow tires and wheels?*

Does anyone have any experience with snow tires on a Phaeton? http://www.tirerack.com reccomends Dunlop Wintersport M3s, which I've had very good experience with on my wife's BMW 325Xi. Does anyone have any other reccomendations?
I'd want to get these with a separate set of wheels, so I could drop down to 17" tires for the snows, and not have to risk messing up my stock rims by swapping tires twice a year. Could I get a set of the special Phaeton valves and install them in aftermarket wheels, to keep the tire pressure monitor function with the snow tires?
I know the Phaeton is AWD (as is my wife's car), but that only helps with making the car go when it's slippery out - I'm also interested in steering and stopping, and for that winter tires make a huge difference.


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## WISVW (Aug 25, 2003)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (bobschneider)*

I may regret it, but I'mm going to wait on snows and see how the beast does. I'm hoping the weight and awd will make the few miserable snow days bearable. I've always put full snows on all my cars. The Touareg wasn't great last year with the stock Conti's, I'm thinking the Michelins will be better.
The Tire Rack can fix you up with tire pressure monitors.


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## docroger1 (Dec 5, 2003)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (WISVW)*

My experience with the stock 18" Michelin Pilots in the snow/ice of New Hampshire last winter was excellent. Had her up and down a very steep driveway with not a single hiccup. The EBD/VSC system does a great job with any lateral sliding. I'm sure that Snow tires would be even better, but I think that the Phaeton's weight and low stance makes for a very stable snow cruiser. It certainly blew away my wife's vaunted XC90 which was so dismal in every respect, including snow performance, that we traded it in!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (bobschneider)*

I normally buy a set of 4 snows, on rims, whenever I get a new car. So, when I picked up the Phaeton last week, I asked the parts manager to order me a set of snows. Well - he looked up the part numbers and the prices, and then asked me to sit down and hold onto the chair.
Seems that a set of aluminum rims (there are no steel rims and hubcaps available, like there are for the Golf), 4 tires, and the things needed to support the pressure monitoring function cost a little over CAD $4300.-, (USD $3,450) at dealer cost, with no markup of any kind. I just about fell out of the chair.
So - I don't think I will get snow tires this winter. But, if anyone here wants to get them, here are the part numbers:
*Snow Tire Part Numbers*


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## bobschneider (Oct 12, 2004)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (PanEuropean)*

That's crazy pricing, even for a dealer, and even for 18" snow tires, which are very limited production because so few cars need them. Tirerack's reccomended package for a Phaeton V8 (235/55-17 Dunlop Wintersport M3s and 17x8 Mille Miliga A1's) costs US$1,260. The W12 package (18" Blizzaks and a different Mille Miliga wheel - apparently a 17" wheel won't clear the bigger brakes on the W12) is still only US$1,868. This doesn't include the tire pressure monitoring hardware, which Tirerack's website says they carry. Their website doesn't list prices for that, but I can't imagine it would be more than $200-$300. Shipping is also extra, but it's been under $100 for me on other wheel/tire orders from them.
I'll probably call Tirerack in the next couple of weeks, and will let the board know what they end up quoting me.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (bobschneider)*

Hi Bob:
Thanks for the additional info. BTW, there are no 'bigger brakes' on North American W12 Phaetons. The European W12's have massive 8 piston calipers on the front wheels, in order to slow the car down from very high speeds. But, the North American W12's are electronically limited to only 210 km/h (about 130 MPH) - in part, because they are equipped with all season tires and not 'proper' tires - so, the factory only installs the smaller front wheel calipers, same as what are used on the V8, on the North American W12's.
PanEuropean


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## bobschneider (Oct 12, 2004)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (PanEuropean)*

I spoke to Tire Rack today. They confirmed that the VW tire pressure monitoring hardware would fit their reccomended wheel, but that it might not fit all aftermarket wheels. However, they said that the specific monitoring parts were "dealer only". The best they could do was to send me the tires and wheels unmounted, so I could get the pressure monitoring hardware from the dealer and have it all installed locally. I asked if I could buy the hardware and send it to them to install in my wheels, and they said they weren't set up to handle that.
They also said that, for the hardware they do carry, they charge about $80-90 per wheel. I suspect a dealer will charge quite a bit more - anyone know any good online sources for VW parts?
I also checked into snow tires for my stock 18" wheels. That would cost me $200 a tire or so, plus mounting and balancing twice a year. That's not an attractive option either.
I'm leaning towards just getting a set of 17" snows and rims without the monitoring hardware, and tracking my tire pressure in the winter the old fashioned way. I could always add the monitoring hardware later if I found a deal on it.
Anyone have any other suggestions?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (bobschneider)*

I don't comprehend why VW North America does not offer complete winter tire kits, the same as VW does all over Europe. Below is a snippet from the German Phaeton price list - these prices are for complete, ready to install sets of 4 snow tires, installed on appropriate rims, complete with valve, etc. You can order them either with or without tire pressure monitoring - the price differential for tire pressure monitoring on all 4 wheels is only € 110 (about USD $ 140) for the complete set.
To convert the prices from Euros (€) to USD ($), multiply the Euro value by 1.30 _exchange rate as of October 27, 2004_
Michael
*Extract from German Phaeton Accessories list - Complete Snow Tire Sets*


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## wannaTouareg (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_I don't comprehend why VW North America does not offer complete winter tire kits, the same as VW does all over Europe.

I does seam like VWoA has dropped the ball on this one. It's their flagship vehicle and they've forgotten to offer a rim and tire package to best safeguard their customers and penultimate baby? Another VW customer service blunder.


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## bobschneider (Oct 12, 2004)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (bobschneider)*

I ordered my tires & wheels from Tire Rack today, Dunlop wintersport M3s with Borbet Type CA wheels (which look very similar to the stock wheels). Total cost including mounting, balancing, and shipping to Chicago $1250. 
Tire pressure monitoring will be handled by my trusty G. H. Meiser tire pressure gague. http://www.properautocare.com/actirpresgau.html
Anyone know if it's possible to turn off the Phaeton's tire pressure monitoring system?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (bobschneider)*

Hi Bob:
As far as I understand it, TPM (Tire Pressure Monitoring) cannot be turned off by the owner using the controls in the center console, but it can easily be turned off by the service technician using the VAS 5051 or VAS 5052 diagnostic and programming tool.
This is done by going to Controller Group 65 (Tire Pressure Monitoring), and changing the 3rd digit of the 5 digit code that appears when function 7 (coding) is selected. Here is the breakdown of what the different digits mean:
Example: 5 digit code on my W12 Phaeton: *10284*
First digit: *1* indicates that Beru is the manufacturer of the monitoring system. I believe this is the same for all Phaetons manufactured so far.
Second digit: *0* indicates the time period used for the monitoring process. *0* is the standard choice.
Third digit: This is what you need to change, it indicates what will be monitored. *2* selects 5 tires, *3* selects only 4 tires (this is used for European Phaetons that do not ship with a spare tire), and there is another code - I will try and find out what it is today - to indicate that nothing is to be monitored. Probably *0* or *1*, but I don't know for sure yet.
Fourth digit: Indicates what engine is installed. I don't know what this has to do with TPM, but it must have some significance. *0* is a V6, *3* is a V8, *4* is a V10 TDI, and *8* is a W12.
Fifth digit: Indicates target pressures with a full load. This is normally set to *4*, which means standard.
I'll get back to you when I get the complete information you need.
Michael


_Modified by PanEuropean at 1:50 AM 10-30-2004_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (PanEuropean)*

Hot news concerning snow tires:
VW of North America now lists three different VW original rims for the Phaeton in the Fall 2004 'DriverGear' catalog. The prices don't include the tire pressure monitoring equipment (nor the tire itself), but the prices for the rims are astonishingly low - especially for the 'Helios' rim, which is a VW Individual product that is a USD $3,000 upgrade from the standard rims (and that's $3,000 for the *upgrade*, not for an extra set!).
More info in the thread entitled: Phaeton Wheel Photos
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (PanEuropean)*

Here's a post listing 4 brand new OEM wheels for sale, complete with TPM equipment, that might be of interest to anyone interested in putting snow tires on their Phaeton this season:
Deal on 17' "inspiration" wheel and tires


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (Eric @ TIRE RACK)*

I have found two excellent links at The Tire Rack that specifically address the snow tire needs of Phaeton owners.
If you have a V8 Phaeton, click here: Upgrade Garage - V8 Phaeton
If you have a W12 Phaeton, click here: Upgrade Garage - W12 Phaeton
There is a tiny difference between 'offset depth' between the V8 (offset depth 40) and the W12 (offset depth 45). I don't know if this is significant or not, however, that plus possible differences in overall weight of the car may account for the two different links. There is an explanation of what 'offset depth' is at this link, but to be honest, I still don't fully comprehend how it affects us, so far as the V8 / W12 differences go.
Michael


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## pilgrim7777 (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (PanEuropean)*

Hi people,
I can switch off the tyre monitor in my car. The press switch called vehicle this brings up tyre pressures then at the top left it says tyre monitor on/off when on its yellow, off greyed out.


_Modified by pilgrim7777 at 11:41 AM 11-9-2004_


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## Eric @ TIRE RACK (Jan 27, 2000)

*Phaeton - Winter*

................









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_Modified by Eric @ TIRE RACK at 8:24 PM 10-25-2006_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton - Winter (Eric @ TIRE RACK)*

Eric:
Thanks a lot for making up that very informative post. I am sure it will be a great help to all of us.
Note to all: You can access the detailed post either by clicking on the little picture of the Phaeton and the snow tire directly above, or, just by clicking on this link: Phaeton Winter Tire Requirement - Detailed Explanation
I have added this link to the FAQ.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (pilgrim7777)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pilgrim7777* »_
...I can switch off the tyre monitor in my car. The press switch called vehicle this brings up tyre pressures then at the top left it says tyre monitor on/off when on its yellow, off greyed out...

Now *that* is interesting news. We're not allowed to do that in North America - that choice is not present on our cars.
Yet another item to add to the "how do we modify the software in the car to let us do this" to-do list. I thought I had the coding for TPM figured out, but obviously I haven't got it all figured out.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (PanEuropean)*

Here is the official guide to fitting snow tires and snow chains on Phaetons. It is interesting to note that although the guide states that the "standard" tire on the W12 is a 235/50, my W12 (a North American Premier Edition one) came with 255/45 tires on it - these are listed in the "modification" category. This leads me to believe that the references to "standard" tires refer to the European market, not the North American market.

Michael
*Snow Tire and Snow Chain Specifications for Phaeton*
_From the VW Technical Literature Library_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (PanEuropean)*

Here is a little bit more snow tire information, gathered from visits I made to my VW dealer in Zurich, and to the Phaeton factory in Dresden:
1) VW does very careful engineering studies to determine what rim and tire combination is suitable for what vehicle / engine combination. Phaetons sold in North America tend to be quite heavy, because they are all 'long wheelbase' models, and they all have quite large engines (V8 or W12). For this reason, it would be wise for us to respect VW's recommendations concerning both rim choice and the specification of the weight bearing capacity of the tire. 
2) For the rims, the "Inspiration" rim is the recommended snow tire rim for the V8, and the "Champion" rim is the recommended snow tire rim for the W12. These rims have been fully tested to ensure they have the weight-bearing capacity needed for our cars, and also to ensure that they will not, for example, plug up with snow and cause problems with brake ventilation or ice formation within the decorative spokes.
3) Having said that, though, it appears that we can safely fit snow tires to the OEM rims that come with our cars (for example, the Challenge rim on the W12). I saw W12 Phaetons both at the dealer in Switzerland and at the factory in Dresden that had snow tires fitted on Challenge rims.
4) The "Helios" rim has not been tested for snow tire use on the V8, and the Helios rim does not have the weight bearing capacity necessary for use on the W12 - either for summer tires or snow tires. Finally, I now know why there is a notation in the DriverGear catalog stating that the Helios rim is for the V8 only.
5) Because our North American Phaetons tend to be at the heavier end of the weight range, we need to respect the weight bearing requirements for the tires themselves. This means a snow tire with a weight rating of 101 or greater for either the V8 or the W12.
Below are a few photos that might be useful for selecting snow tires and rims.
Michael
*Champion Rim (for W12) with snow tire installed*
_Photo taken in the courtyard of the factory in Dresden_








*Champion Rim*
_This provides a better overall perspective of how the Champion rims look on the car._









*Challenge Rim (for W12) with snow tire installed*
_This is the rim that is standard equipment on North American W12 Phaetons. In the photo below, it has a Bridgestone 'Blizzak' snow tire installed. This tire has a rather pronounced chine on it, which does an excellent job of protecting the rim from scuffs._


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (PanEuropean)*

For archival and search purposes, links to some related topics:
Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR) Question
Phaeton Wheel Photos
'The Tire Rack' Phaeton offerings
Aftermarket Wheels
Michael


_Modified by PanEuropean at 4:14 PM 12-3-2004_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (PanEuropean)*

I posted this photo on another thread, but in an effort to keep all the related information together on this 'Snow Tire' discussion, here is a tire specification sticker from a European W12.
Interesting to note that in Europe, different pressures are specified for different loads (half load - full load), but in North America, we just get one pressure specification for all load conditions. My North American Golf also had two different specifications, one for half load and one for full load.
I _suspect_ the reason for this is concern that VW has about damage to the underside of the car caused by road hazards and higher curb heights in North America - but this is strictly speculation on my part.
Michael
*Tire Information Sticker - European W12 (2004 model year)*
_NB: I added the red text and lines, just to highlight the information - there is no other information underneath the red text and lines._


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## Riemer (Dec 2, 2004)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (PanEuropean)*

My Phaeton was delivered with Dunlop Winter M2 (235/50-18) and the rims below:


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## Theresias (Feb 11, 2004)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_First digit: *1* indicates that Beru is the manufacturer of the monitoring system. I believe this is the same for all Phaetons manufactured so far.

I guess I have to correct that, because it's not the manufacturer of the TPM meant. Meant is the Car's manufacturer, because basicly the system is also equipped in the Audi A8 and of course Touareg and Cayenne...
But anyway, *1* is the standard setting...


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## philboyj (Sep 16, 2004)

*Phaeton performance in Snow*

Hello Everyone
Once in a while I get this writing bug in between all the enjoyable miles in my Phaeton...
Living in the NY, we got our first big piles of snow - and I am not sure if the 4 wheel drive under performed or whether I was expecting too much from it.
For starters, even on less than an inch of snow, I was sliding around corners and turns - speeds less than 20 mph. More than a couple of times I was searching for some button inside the car saying 4wd although I knew that it is a full time 4wd. I thought the weight of the car would be a benefit in the snow, but it seems to be propelling the car because of the mass.
In about 6 inches of snow the car was completely stuck. It wasnt going anywhere - till I got out and had to dig the snow away from under the car. - and losing some plastic cover from the bottom which I am still to figure out what it covers ( Curved black plastic about 12 inches wide and 4 inches deep)
After this, I guess the snow was stuck on the insides of the tires ( I am assuming this) making the tires unbalanced and this resulted in the whole car vibrating (very distinct on the steering and defnitely quite a bit on the seats) at speeds greater than 45 mph. Below 45 mph, no proble, whatsoever. Finally this evening the vibration went away an its ck to good ol' days








Anybody else have a different experience. Would love to hear and one of the reasons I bought this car was for additional safety while dealing with New York winters ( ofcourse apart from the other goodies







)


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## AusSalzburg (Nov 4, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (philboyj)*

It all has to do with Tires my friend. No matter what metal is sitting on those wheels. I have tons of experience of what it is like to have "All season" tires versus snow/ice tires like the Bridgestone Blizzaks. 
The difference is like night and day. My Audi Quattro was horrible around corners and when starting and stopping. With a set Blizzaks mounted it was awsome. I was able to climb very steep hills, deep snow and panic stop. I pulled some cars out of the ditch while all for wheels were on solid snow and ice. With the previous tires I wouldn't have waisted my time. It would be like ice climbing with tennis shoes versus with proper ice climbing shoes. 
Your Phaeton is wearing the wrong shoes. Call Tire Rack and order a set of rims with premounted snow/ice tires. Do not get studded.
Werner


_Modified by AusSalzburg at 1:10 AM 1-25-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (philboyj)*

Hi Philip:
I was also driving in snow today (in Toronto, Canada), and did not encounter any problems - the Phaeton performed reasonably well.
What I *did* notice, though, was that traction in snow with the all-season tires that came on my Phaeton is a heck of a lot worse than traction in snow with the purpose-specific winter snow tires I have on my Golf in Switzerland (which I was driving all last week). 
I have always bought a second set of rims and a set of 4 snow tires for the various Golfs and Jettas that I have owned in North America. I hesitated to buy a second set of rims and snow tires for the Phaeton when I got the Phaeton in October 2004 - only because of the price, it would have cost me about USD $3,000 to buy VW rims, 4 snow tires, and all the tire pressure monitoring equipment. But, for sure, I am going to buy all that stuff before winter of 2005 begins next fall.
After having used snow tires every winter for the past 20 years, I really miss them this winter. I figured I would try out the 'all season' tires that ship on the Phaeton, thinking that perhaps all season tire technology has improved in the last 20 years - take my word for it, it has not.
Below is a page from a brochure that the VW dealers in Switzerland provide. In Switzerland, it is required by law that drivers install snow tires in the winter, and the VW dealers change the tires (normally, snow tires are kept on their own set of rims) for the owner free of charge in the spring and fall, and store the unused set of wheels at the dealership. The brochure is, obviously, in German - but I think you can get the gist of it from the illustrations of stopping distances. The temperature graph illustrates the annual time period during which temperatures are below 7° C (45° F) - at or below this temperature, snow tires offer much better traction on snow-covered or wet road surfaces.
Michael
*Stopping Distance Comparison - Snow tires vs. Summer Tires*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (PanEuropean)*

Here's a section of the above brochure (the first diagram, in the upper left), enlarged and with a more complete translation. It illustrates pretty well the fallacy of 'all season tires'.
*Stopping distances in Snow - Summer vs. Winter tires*


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## varun56 (Jun 4, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (philboyj)*

The Phaeton does need some nice winter tires to perform well. The all seasons they give do "ok". I had no problem going through lots of snow, and the only time it had trouble was when the snow was deeper than the clearance the car had. At which point, I put the suspension to the high setting, turned off ESP and gave it some gas and it eased its way out.
I did expect more, but not too disappointed. It will suffice for the snow we get in the Washington DC area unless a blizzard hits.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (PanEuropean)*

Here's a picture of a Phaeton that I took on Saturday in Zürich. Even though the car is sitting in the showroom, it has snow tires on it, because it is winter.
It is interesting to note that these rims are the 'Champion' rims, which are the recommended snow tire rims for the V10 TDI (this car) and also the W12. It is allowed to mount show tires on the 'Challenge' rims that come standard on the Phaeton in North America, however, the Challenge rims have exposed lug nuts, which are not the best thing to have if you ever need to change a tire in the winter. The Champion rims have a little plastic cap over the 5 lug nuts, this keeps snow and ice out of the nuts.
In Europe, you can purchase a complete set of 4 Champion rims, 4 snow tires, and all the TPMS equipment for about USD $2,000. This can either be ordered as an additional set of equipment when you buy the car - just tick off a box on the option sheet - or ordered as a 'single part number' from the parts department of the dealership. It is much less expensive to order the set of 4 complete snow wheels as a single part number than it is to order them as individual components (4 rims, 4 tires, 4 valves, 4 TPMS sensors, etc.) as we are obliged to do in North America.
*Snow Tires mounted on Champion rims*


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## bobschneider (Oct 12, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (philboyj)*

No problem in Chicago's snow (we had about a foot this weekend) with my V8, with a set of Dunlop Wintersport M3 tires from Tire Rack. Just very slight amount of sliding when going around corners with lots of snow and ice buildup, but very easy to control. I was probably going a little fast for conditions when that happened, too. Other than that, rock solid on the road, and great stopping power.
I second what the others have said about using real winter tires. I look at it this way: AWD helps with getting going, but it doesn't have any effect on steering or stopping. That's what you need the snow tires for!
I got my snow tires mounted on a set of Borbet rims, but didn't bother with the TPM sensors. That would have been something like $1K - I have a $20 air pressure gague which works fine. I get an error message from the TPM after driving about half an hour, but it's just one tone, and then an icon on the display between the speedometer and tach. Not really annoying.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (bobschneider)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobschneider* »_ I get an error message from the TPMS after driving about half an hour, but it's just one tone, and then an icon on the display between the speedometer and tach. Not really annoying.

Hi Bob:
I have not given up on trying to find a way to enable the 'ON-OFF' control for the TPMS system. European Phaetons have an on-off control, specifically to allow the owner to turn the TPMS system off in the winter when snow tires are fitted, and TPMS is not required.
I think this will be a fairly simple tweak, something we can do either with a VAG-COM, or just by asking the service technician at our VW dealer to implement with the VW supplied diagnostic scan tools (VAS 5051 or VAS 5052). I doubt that the ability to enable this on-off control is locked up as tightly as, for example, the navigation acceptance screen control.
Hopefully I will find out how to do this before next winter arrives, because for sure, I am going to put a set of 4 snow tires on my Phaeton before next winter arrives!
Michael
*ON-OFF Control for TPMS*
_This is provided on all European Phaetons, but not on the North American Phaetons._


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## WISVW (Aug 25, 2003)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
I would be interested in any progress on this, my Touareg of course allows you to do it in the MFI, but my wives Phaeton does not. 
We did not put on snows this year, but probably will next.
Thanks, Glen


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## philboyj (Sep 16, 2004)

*Phaeton performance in Snow*

Thanks everybody for your input. I guess the tires make all the difference - I liked the analogy about the tennis shoes on ice...makes sense
I live in an apartment - so I do not have the luxury of a garage for keeping the regular tires ( assuming I want to spend the money for the snow tires and the rims







) But where there is a will there is a way right?
Any thoughts on the vibrations which came and went mysteriously?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (philboyj)*

Hi Philip:
Just ask your VW dealer to store the wheel assemblies for you during the off-season. For sure, if you have the dealership service department change the wheels each spring and fall, they will be happy to store them for you, unless they are desperately short of storage space. In Switzerland, storing wheels in the off-season is part of the service package that is provided free when you buy ANY Volkswagen. My Canadian dealer (VW Richmond Hill, just north of Toronto) has always offered to store my snows and summer tires for me, free of charge, though this practice is normally not advertised in North America.
Concerning the mystery vibration, my guess is that it was a blob of slush that accumulated on the inside bottom of one of your wheels, then froze overnight while the car was parked. Since then, the temperature in your area has risen (and the blob has melted), or, you have parked in a heated garage, and the blob has melted.
We get this same problem (blobs of slush freezing on wheel rims) on aircraft - except the consequences are worse, because when you land, the wheel goes from not turning to turning at 100 MPH plus in about half a second. To avoid this grief, most aircraft have a tube that supplies hot bleed air from the engines to the wheel rim and brake assembly - we leave this 'brake de-ice' heat on for a few minutes after takeoff, to melt any snow or slush that might have accumulated. Haven't seen this option on any cars yet, though.
Michael


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## volkswebber (Mar 6, 2003)

About the vibration... It is definitely in large part to the accumulation of snow/ice inside the rim. When the snow gets packed or frozen onto the rim, it can have a similar effect to putting a weight on the rim.
I had the same experience over the holidays in Detroit over the holidays in my 2004 Phaeton. I just blasted the snow off with warm water at the car wash and the vibe disappeared.
And I couldn't agree more about the "shoe" issue. I have a set of Dunlop summer/sport tires on my Phaeton. It handles very poorly in the snow with such tires (i.e. long stopping distances, anemic cornering...), but all things considered, it handles like a champ in the snow! Even with the performance tires, the handling is incredible. On dry pavement, the car's all-wheel-drive handling is legendary. 
As far as the driving through 6 inches of snow part.. It's no wonder you got stuck! Your car weighs over 5000 lbs.! These cars are designed for on road use. 6 Inches of snow is Touareg terrain!
Joseph


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (volkswebber)*

Hi Joe:
Thanks for adding that. I don't recall seeing you in the forum before - glad you found us, and welcome to our owner's group. We all hope you find the information here useful.
Michael


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## vwschwartz (Feb 4, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

I am at a dealer in buffalo, The Home of Snow! haha and the standard tires are no good in the snow stopping is quite scarry, however we do offer nokia RSI, and Hakkapletia 2's snow tires for the phaeton, and touareg as well, we have one phaeton with the hakkas and it is absoutly fab in the snow! we currently have about 2 feet of snow on the ground and befor we plowed we tried it in comparison to the Mich's and its like driving a unimog in the snow rippes right through everything... but obviously drive with caution in the snow allways .....
Don


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## 2840 (Jul 9, 2003)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (philboyj)*

I just have the regular all season tires that came with it and I have driven in quite a bit of snow with now problems.


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## whealy (Nov 15, 2004)

Hum … my experience in the snow with my Phaeton has been noting but great even without snow tires.
Over the course of the winter thus far, we have had several small snows. But we did have on large one that put down about 7+ inches. My neighbor was stuck in the cul-de-sac with his Acura TSX. Not a complaint, just deep snow. I went out in the same untouched portions with the suspension raised and had no issues. Except when I came back home and found they had plowed. Spoiled my fun!
I did have snow tires on my previous Mazda RX-8. That was the first vehicle I have ever had snows on. They certainly made a difference on that vehicles handling in the snow as the OEM tires were performance tires. I also have had my Excursion our in some of the light stuff and managed to slip the back end around corners without the 4WD on.
Unfortunately, I fell almost invincible in the Phaeton in the snow. It is simply my preferred vehicle for driving under these conditions .. and many others. I don’t know what snow tires would bring to my situation, but I can image them making any marked difference.


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## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: (whealy)*

I have not had any issues in the snow - and we also recently had a snowfall of over 1 ft.... However, as many people have pointed out, the tires make all the difference.
I would recommend snow tires in the snow - Blizzaks are great (from personal experience) - there is no comparison between a snow tire and the all-season Michelins standard on the North American Phaetons.
I have also used Nokians (on my wife's previous automobile); they are terrific tires - and they also produce an "all-season/snow" tire which really works well in the snow. Unlike the Blizzaks, the Nokian WR can be run year-round... I do not know if this tire has been designed to function on the Phaeton.
Certainly, both the Blizzaks and the Nokians (Hakkapeliitta - winter only, WR - all-season/snow) are great tires. I have used both the Blizzaks as well as the Nokian WRs.
I would recommend, if you are planning on doing alot of driving in the snow, to get the right "shoes" for that kind of activity.
For more information on the tires I mentioned, here are links to the manufacturers' web sites:
For Nokian Tires
For Blizzaks
Douglas


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

I have driven in snow this winter in Indianapolis and Chicago, and in between. It has performed better than my Audi's, but I think the weight has something to do with that. Having al that weight is not a bad thing!!


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## BPVWPv8 (Dec 2, 2004)

*all seasons vs snows*

just like michaels' graph shows there is no question about the superiority of specific purpose-desgined "shoes" vs general purpose "shoes". i have used 4 snows for years on all my cars. you would be amazed at how capable my old 740il was with 4 Michelin Artic Aplin's on it in most anything short of a blizzard.
i tried my phaeton this weekend in our ny snow and was very pleased with how the car moved from a stop and was able to climb steep hills in my home town. but when it came to stopping and turning i was not as comfortable. next year, snows again.


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## jmdpjd1 (Aug 18, 2004)

*Re: all seasons vs snows (BPVWPv8)*

Just before Christmas we had a good storm and I had no problems or complaints with the AS shoes. It was about six plus inches and I was going like a hot knife thru butter. Great car in the snow.


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## Phat Cat (Dec 25, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (philboyj)*

I had no problems in the snow until we had our recent 14" in very cold weather. What I noticed is that in slushy conditions things are fine, but in the dry/cold snow, the car slid considerably more than my prior A6. Kind of scary actually because I wasn't expecting it.
I'm looking for Blizzaks now...


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## PC Dave (Nov 29, 2001)

*Re: (vwschwartz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwschwartz* »_I am at a dealer in buffalo, The Home of Snow! haha and the standard tires are no good in the snow stopping is quite scarry, however we do offer nokia RSI, and Hakkapletia 2's snow tires for the phaeton, and touareg as well, we have one phaeton with the hakkas and it is absoutly fab in the snow! 
Don

Don, do you have the RSI's available in the standard Phaeton V8 size, 235/55-17? I checked Nokian's website, and the only tires they have listed in that size are the Hakka 4's, which are studded. I can't find a studless Hakka in that size. I've had Hakkas in the past, and they're great. Barring availability, however, I'm probably just going to get the Tire Rack package with the Dunlop S3's or Blizzaks.


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## impex4 (Mar 1, 2004)

turn off the traction IF the car is DRIVING in 1"+ of snow , 
you should notice the difference 
less than 1" leave the traction on


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## carrerarsr (Jan 5, 2005)

*Re: (impex4)*

My car handles perfect on an icy road or in the snow. I do have winter tires Continental TS 790. I think and Michael will agree this is essential for a car with a weight of 2500 kg. Having fun means switching of the esp and go for it.


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

*Re: (volkswebber)*

Hi Joe,
I just missed meeting you while you were in Detroit over the holidays. Belated happy New Year.







I was at Mike Fox getting my 10k service that day. Driving the Phaeton was no problem, not like the guy that got his Lincoln LS stuck in the left hand turning lane in front of the dealership. I think he was wistfully eyeing the Touaregs...

Like Joe, I was driving my 2004 Phaeton in the snow on those Dunlop Y-rated summer/performance tires. I just made sure to clean the accumulated snow out of the wheel wells. They do not plow out my neighborhood when school is not in session so I just raised my suspension and allowed for extra stopping distance. AWD is only as good as the rubber underneath it. 
And when ice/snow/salt/sand accumulate over the parking sensors; a trip to the car wash serves another purpose!








I now have a set of the Michelin M + S All Season Radials on. I still use caution in the snow (and I'm in New England right now) but mostly because of other drivers, not the Phaeton. The Phaeton is the most competent vehicle I’ve ever driven, regardless of road condition.


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## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (philboyj)*

For me, my 2004 v8 phaeton with all season tires is the most awe- inspiring deep-snow and ice vehicle i have ever driven. i feel invincible and unstopable. Before I bought my 2004 v8 phaeton, my most expensive car purchase was $36000. so i cannot compair my winter driving experience to a previous audi or bmw or any other luxury vehicle. i do know i plowed through snow were other sedans were stuck.
i can't understand all this talk about the need for snow tires. however, i will try the snow tires next year to see what everyone is talking about.
the vibration is snow and ice pack in the wheel. i experienced this problem and spayed the snow out with hot water at a car wash. problem fixed. this happens the most (at least in Indaiana) when you stop in deep snow, not while driving in deep snow.


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## cxg231 (Sep 24, 2002)

*Re: (volkswebber)*


_Quote, originally posted by *volkswebber* »_These cars are designed for on road use. 6 Inches of snow is Touareg terrain!

Just as everyone else has said - Snow Tires. Snow tires. Snow tires. My little front-wheel-drive golf GTi, which is also designed for on-road use - armed with Bridgestone Blizzak WS-50's - plowed thru 8 inches of snow with minimal problems. Add the all wheel drive, power and weight of the Phaeton to the "power" of snow tires and you should be virtually unstopable. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by cxg231 at 10:42 AM 1-29-2005_


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## volkswebber (Mar 6, 2003)

Eve! I'm sorry I missed you in detroit too. hope the visits are going well. things are stellar out west. 
Michael,
Thanks for the warm welcome!


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## pilgrim7777 (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (philboyj)*

On reading some the posts on traction in snow and some of the other comments. It maybe that the tyre pressures you are running may be a clue to traction, as I see it you do seem to run your tyre pressures at much higher pressure than is necessary but that's only my view from the other side of the pond.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (Paldi)*

Here's a few additional Phaeton photos with a 'winter' theme, including the original VW photo of the vehicle above.
Michael
*Winter Operations*
_This car is equipped with 'Champion' winter wheels._


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## swa5000 (Jun 14, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (PanEuropean)*

I was just driving my Phaeton over about four inches of snow and ice. It handled beautifully. I was only doing about fifteen miles per hour in that parking lot, though.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (swa5000)*

I did a really long highway trip today, with about 200 miles of it over packed snow, ice, and slush.
I really, really miss the snow tires that I have had on all my Golfs and Jettas over the last 20 years. In my opinion, 'all season' tires are just great, if you happen to live in a place that has the same kind of seasons as Florida or Southern California. But if you live in a place that has snow and ice 5 months of the year - winter tires are a MUST.
There is just no way I am going to go into next winter's first snowfall without 4 snow tires on my Phaeton. I'm actually quite disappointed that VW does not offer us the same 'winter package' of 4 rims, 4 tires, and all the TPMS equipment that they offer Phaeton owners in Europe. It's possible to buy all the stuff here, but when you buy it part by part, it costs 50% more than the price of the package offered in Europe.
Michael


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## SKEEMEISTER (Aug 27, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (PanEuropean)*

Not a phaeton owner but man these are nice looking cars. I will say snow tires make the differnece. I picked up a pair of Dunlop M3 Wintersport form tirerack and my car handles awesome in the snow. I think in this pic the paheton has the M3's on them. Great tire H rated and good price. I have also had good luck with the wear.
Cheers!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (Paldi)*

I dunno - I'm not a physicist, and all my experience with performance calculations has been with aircraft on flat runways.
I wonder if the heavier Phaeton would even make it up such a slope, equipped with the same studded tires that the Audi eventually used? I kind of doubt it - the more the slope starts to go uphill, the more you start 'lifting weight' - and the snow surface has a very limited coefficient of friction. Perhaps the wheels might start to spin on a heavier car?
Michael


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## BPVWPv8 (Dec 2, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (PanEuropean)*

hi all:
wondering if i can save a few $ by just buying the snow tires and having them changed seasonally. i have done this with other cars and it has worked out to be around $100 - $120 per change. since i have 2 winters left with this car i feel less than $500 spent on tire changes is less expensive than new wheels too. (new wheels will require me to buy a block & tackle set up for my garage to get the off season wheels-tires up to the loft storage area).
does the presence of the tpm system impact this at all? does it limit my choices of where to have it done to just vw dealers?
thx
bob


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (BPVWPv8)*

Hi Bob:
I've also thought about your idea before, and wondered if it might make more sense than going out and buying a second full set of rims, TPM sensors, etc.
I don't think the presence of the TPM system should interfere at all with the process of swapping the tires on the rim once every 6 months. The TPM sensor is rather small, and it is located in the same area as the valve. The person removing the tire (breaking the seating of the tire bead on the rim, lifting the bead up and over the rim, etc.) will need to pay attention to the presence of the sensor, meaning, not break the bead with a pneumatically powered tire changing machine directly over the sensor, but other than that, I think the process would be pretty normal.
I think most shops that work on higher end cars - and this includes VW dealers - have the required protective covers to put over the rim to ensure that the rim is not scratched in the process of removing and installing the tire.
I don't know how well modern tires take to being removed and re-installed twice a year. I do remember it was no problem when I was a kid, but then, tires were simpler, and they didn't last as long. Not too many people got three seasons out of a tire. Now, it is pretty reasonable to expect the tire to last three full seasons.
Michael


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## maz60 (Jan 14, 2005)

*Audi ski jump climb*

Michael,
I vividly recall the original version of this ad. I live at the bottom of a hill of 4/10 mile and I need to get up this hill even in the poorly plowed aftermaths of Virginia snowstorms.
In Virginia, we believe in the separation of church and state. If God puts a foot of snow on the ground,that is His will and the state largely does not interfere. He put it there and He will get rid of it. He always has has done so, in His own good time.
This ad helped me in my decision to invest in an Audi 5000 turbo quattro, an Audi V8, an Audi A6 and an Audi A8 before moving up the food chain to the current Phaeton. In all that time, 1987 to the present, the only time quattro ever failed me was a memorable storm that dumped 16 inches in one day. The Audi literally could not make contact with the underlying road. A Suburban was called in for emergency duty that day.
During all those storms, I never used snow tires, just the all season radials and the fabulous quattro.
I am a believer in Quattro.
Mike


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Audi ski jump climb (maz60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mike* »_In Virginia, we believe in the separation of church and state. If God puts a foot of snow on the ground,that is His will and the state largely does not interfere. He put it there and He will get rid of it. He always has has done so, in His own good time.

That is so funny, I needed a good laugh after writing that epic post about programming seat memories. Thanks for providing one.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (PanEuropean)*

This is *seriously* funny - someone has made a video of a Volvo doing the same climb up a ski jump: http://www.xc-fan.de/Archiv/V70_Schanze.MPG


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## relliott (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael, 
I don't want to contradict you, but isn't that the new A6 in the video? And if it is, then doesn't it share more with the Passat than with the Phaeton? 
Thanks, 
Ron


_Modified by relliott at 12:08 PM 3-12-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (relliott)*

Ron, you may well be correct - to tell you the truth, I don't know enough about the Audis to tell the difference between the 6 and the 8. Someone told me it was an 8, so I posted that it was an 8. But, it could well be a 6. Maybe one of the Audi owners who visit here from time to time could give us an authoritative answer (please).
Michael


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## RogerG (Jan 10, 2005)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (PanEuropean)*

...it is an A6. They showed the film in german "stern-tv". They made the film 20 years after they did the same with the first Audi 100 quattro. You can see it here: http://homepage.swissonline.ch...o.wmv


_Modified by RogerG at 5:55 AM 3-13-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (RogerG)*

I'm just in the process of ordering a set of snow tires for my Phaeton - figured if I do it this month, they should arrive in time for installation around the middle of October.
There are three different tires that are available to me here in Canada:
Bridgestone Blizzak LM 22
Pirelli W240 Snow Sport
Continental TS 790
Does anyone have any comments (good or bad) based on personal experience with any of the above three products?
Michael


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## Gobuster (May 19, 2005)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (PanEuropean)*

Living in Florida I have no experience with winter tires, but being a Saab club member, I read their magazine. They think the Nokian Hakapellita (not sure of the spelling) are best, but Blizzaks are also well rated. Tire rack rates Dunlop highly and sells a decent looking wheel/tire package for the Phaeton for approx. US$1,000 and I think they ship to Canada. Look here: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/...urvey
Sorry I can't be of more help.
Rob


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (PanEuropean)*

I've used Blizzaks for years on a '86 MR2(turning it from scary to fun in the snow!), a standard shift '97 Maxima, and a '91 Lexus LS 400. I don't believe any of them were LM 22s. I also had a set of Michelin Alpins on the LS 400 for a while.
The early Blizzaks were far superior to the Alpins in the snow but not as good in the dry as they were 'squirmy'. Not a very technical description, but the best I can do. Well, you might say they are meant to be snow tires, but as we know most of the time the roads are clear of snow even in the winter. The Blizzaks I've purchased more recently have improved remarkably in the dry and I plan on purchasing them for my Phaeton. I'll probably do a Tire Rack deal as I've been very pleased with them in the past. Mounted and balanced to my door. I just put them on the car using my floor jack and impact wrench, carefully torquing down the lug nuts.
I'm looking to see other's experiences with snows in case I should reconsider my current choice.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (Gobuster)*

Hi Rob:
Thanks for that suggestion. I did investigate the Nokian tires, but they do not make a snow tire that fits a W12 Phaeton. The problem seems to be the load rating - it has to be a 103 load rating for the W12, due to the weight of the front end of the car.
I will have a look at what Dunlop offers - I had not considered them.
Michael


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
See if Yokohama has an offering. I have run Guardex (600/720/721) for the last seven years or so and have been consistently impressed -- to the point where I am able to outrun sport-utilities at a traffic light with only front-wheel drive and ESP at the reins. 
While Guardes and Blizzak both have a microcell structure, Yokohama has impregnated the compound with nylon reinforcements, allowing them to continue the compound through the entire tread depth as opposed to only the first 55% as is the case with Michelin.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (PanEuropean)*

Attached is an extract (cover page plus Phaeton-specific page) from a document that VW of America issued in the fall of 2004, indicating what the approved snow tire sizes are for Phaetons and what wheel and tire combinations are suitable for fitment of snow chains.
The wheels are described by part number, not by name. You might be able to correlate the part numbers in this document with the part numbers shown on the photos at the Phaeton Wheel Photos thread. Let me know if you find any errors or omissions at that thread.
Michael


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## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (PanEuropean)*

Since the Phaeton has been available in North America for a couple of winters, I am looking for some feedback regarding snow tires people have been using on Phaetons and the performance of those tires.
On the TireRack.com site, only one tire, the ContiWinterContact TS790 V, meets VW's specifications - the other tires listed do not meet the load requirements (103 load rating).
Has anyone tried the ContiWinterContact TS790 V snow tires??
Also, what size (17" or 18") have you used?? And what wheels??
Thanks...
Douglas


_Modified by copernicus0001 at 2:44 PM 11-7-2005_


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (copernicus0001)*

VW supplies tires with a 103 load rating. However, it appears that a 99 load rating will meet the weight requirements, at least for the V8. I used a 55%/45% front/rear weight distribution and 1000 lb. of passengers/luggage load in my calculations. The TireRack people concurred with my calculations.
I just purchased 17x7 Borbet Type CA Silver Wheels and 235/55HR-17 Dunlop Winter Sport M3 tires which are their 'recommended' package. The price was reasonable at $1,240.00 mounted and balanced. Shipping to MA was $72.25 and there was no sales tax. The closest package I could get locally was $1,000 more!
The wheels are made in Germany and, according to TireRack, certified for Phaeton use. They look remarkably like my Challenge wheels (which I like), that I will use for summer high-performance tires.
The tires were rated best by TireRack users, which may not be the best way to judge performance, but it's probably better than anecdotal information.


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## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (car_guy)*

I was considering the Dunlop Winter Sport M3 tires as well - and submitted an order via their (tirerack.com) website yesterday. A representative from TireRack called me today and informed me that the M3s were not suitable for the Phaeton since they do not meet the load rating requirements. He held shipment until he spoke to me... The order is currently on hold. He suggested the Continental ContiWinterContact TS790V (from my post above) - this was the only option they carried that met the 103 load rating. Unfortunately, there was a minimal volume of feedback regarding the Continentals - the M3s were rated the highest in almost every category for our application in the consumer survey.

_Modified by copernicus0001 at 5:43 PM 11-7-2005_


_Modified by copernicus0001 at 5:46 PM 11-7-2005_


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## PC Dave (Nov 29, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (copernicus0001)*


_Quote, originally posted by *copernicus0001* »_I was considering the Dunlop Winter Sport M3 tires as well - and submitted an order via their (tirerack.com) website yesterday. A representative from TireRack called me today and informed me that the M3s were not suitable for the Phaeton since they do not meet the load rating requirements. He held shipment until he spoke to me... The order is currently on hold. 

Did he say they weren't suitable for the V8, or only for the W12 (since you have both)? Tire Rack's suggested 17" winter tire/wheel package for the V8 includes the Dunlops, and I ordered it today for my V8, for delivery later this week. I got a call from a Tire Rack rep, but only to discuss the TPMS; he said nothing about the tire being inadequate.


_Modified by PC Dave at 2:03 AM 11-8-2005_


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## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (PC Dave)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PC Dave* »_
Did he say they weren't suitable for the V8, or only for the W12 (since you have both)? Tire Rack's suggested 17" winter tire/wheel package for the V8 includes the Dunlops, and I ordered it today for my V8, for delivery later this week. I got a call from a Tire Rack rep, but only to discuss the TPMS; he said nothing about the tire being inadequate.

_Modified by PC Dave at 2:03 AM 11-8-2005_


The snows are for the V8 (the W12 is in Florida). The salesperson did not ask whether the Phaeton was a V8 or W12, however, I did mention that suggested tire/wheel package included the 17" Dunlop M3 tires (for a W12, the TireRack fitment suggests an 18" package). From this information, he may have inferred the application was a V8.
What he stressed - was that the load rating of the Dunlop M3 tires was below what is recommended by VW - and that he would (could) not ship the order until he spoke with me on the phone to explain this to me (I also placed my order via their website on Sunday). The salesperson said the ride would be poor with the M3's, especially when cornering... He suggested ordering the Continentals that I spoke of above.
Regarding TPMS - TireRack said they did not have Phaeton compatible sensors.
I was unable to find much in the line of independent reviews of the Continentals. The few reviews for the Continentals on TireRacks's website don't amount to much.
Douglas


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## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (PC Dave)*

From what I have read, the Continental TS790s are at the bottom of the list compared to other "winter performance" tires. Here is an asessment of winter tires by Luke of TireRack. 
I was planning on installing the Dunlop M3s until the load index issue came to light - the Dunlop M3s have a load index of 99; the Continental TS790s have a load index of 103; VW of NA recommends a tire with a load index of 103. I planned on going with the Continentals since that was the ONLY tire available to meet VW-NA recommendations.
However, I came across some additional information that makes me feel more comfortable about using the Dunlop M3 tires (with a 99 load rating) on a V8 Phaeton. This is from a post made earlier this year in the thread titled W12 Tire Pressures, Ride Comfort and Road Noise 
This first table may be providing information incorrectly (for the short wheelbase (SWB) Phaeton instead of the long wheelbase (LWB) Phaeton). It does not specify which vehicle it is addressing.









*The photo below is for a SWB Phaeton*









If anyone else has any experience with snow tires on the Phaeton, it would be intersting to hear about it.



_Modified by PanEuropean at 8:53 PM 11-1-2008_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (copernicus0001)*

Hi Douglas:
Bridgestone does make a snow tire that is OK for the big Phaetons, here is a picture of an OEM snow tire on a European (Swiss) W12. I don't know if Bridgestone distributes this tire in North America, though.
Also, here's a picture of a Dunlop M2 snow tire, with a 101 load rating, installed on a *SWB *W12 Phaeton. I took the photo of the Dunlop tire on the piazza of the factory in Dresden, so I know that one is OEM fitment. The black, 8 piston Brembo brake caliper is the tipoff that this is a 'heavy' Phaeton.
*Bridgestone Blizzak on a W12 LWB (OEM Installation)*








*Dunlop M2 on a W12 SWB (OEM Installation)*


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (PanEuropean)*

Alright -- here's the information on the load index. I contacted a friend of mine who manages a Just Tires in the area and he said he wouldn't even blink at putting a 99 load index tire on a Phaeton. 
Long story short, a tire with a load index of 99 is designed to carry a maximum of 1709 lbs. or 775 kg. Multiply that by four tires, and you have a total capacity of 6836 lbs. or 3100 kg. This information can be found at: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/...ge=17
According to vw.com, the Phaeton W12 (arguably the heavier of the two), has a curb weight of 5399 lbs. or 2449 kg. The payload rating is 968 lbs. or 439 kg. This puts a total vehicle weight at 6367 lbs. or 2888 kg., within the tires' limits of 6836 lbs. or 3100 kg. http://www.vw.com/vwcom/conten...s.pdf
The limits on a tire with a load index of 103 are higher, adding an additional 880 lbs. or 400 kg. of capacity.
Given these specifications and given that we do not see the upper limits of the Phaeton's capabilities in the NAR, I would not be concerned putting a snow tire with a 99 load index on my personal vehicle. _legal disclaimer_







: How you choose to interpret the data and what decisions you make as a result are, as always, entirely your responsibility.







Personally, I wouldn't lose sleep over it.


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## PC Dave (Nov 29, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (chrisj428)*

Thanks, Chris. I think you've confirmed that the tires are perfectly safe in the real world, at this point I'm just wondering what VW's position would be in any kind of liability situation (i.e., you used a tire that didn't meet spec, we're not responsible for anything). I called the Phaeton hotline, Heather there checked with the parts guy at my dealer in Utah, who said the acceptable load rating varied by tire manufacturer (huh?). She's going to go through the required channels to check with Product Support in Auburn Hills to see if there's any official position on this issue.
I spoke with Luke at Tire Rack, it sounds like they made their decision to offer the Dunlops based on Euro-specs, as displayed in the European gas cap sticker that Copernicus posted a couple of posts up.


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## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (chrisj428)*

Hi Chris...
Thank you for your post and time looking into load index. I only know a very little bit about tires, wheels, etc... but there are a few things that I think your friend overlooked. 
He assumes the mass of the vehicle was equally supported by each of the 4 tires - this is not so. Each tire has a load that is different. For practical considerations, I would think one can safely assume that the vehicle is symmetric in mass along the driveline axis. This would allow us to consider load per axle. I am sure that a measured axle weight would be different for the front and rear.
The other significant issue is that the load index is a function of tire pressure. Using the Dunlop M3s as an example, the tire pressure would need to be 51 psi for the tires to exhibit a load index of 99 (1709 lbs. capacity); (the tire pressure is from Dunlop's data sheets).
A most important consideration that you did note is that generally we don't push the vehicle to its upper limits (which is even less likely if the driving conditions are poor - snow, slush and salt covered cars). But, using tires such as the Dunlop M3s in a 235/55HR17, I would keep the air pressure high, I would not overload the vehicle, and I would keep the speed under 100 mph. I feel that at sustained velocities greater than 100 mph with 4 large adults in the vehicle, the tires may no longer be able to shed heat quickly enough to avoid mechanical failure.
Perhaps this is why VW-NA recommends the higher speed rating (103); (worried about what happened to Ford/Firestone). Note however, that earlier technical literature had different specifications regarding winter tires (allowing a 99 load rating for 17 inch wheels). This picture is from page one of this thread - I show it again below for convenience.








P.S. Michael - Thank you for posting so many informative photos, pds files, etc.. Without them, we would not be so fully informed and we would have much less to discuss on this forum. I have made reference to your posts, photos, etc. numerous times.


----------



## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (copernicus0001)*


_Quote, originally posted by *copernicus0001* »_but there are a few things that I think your friend overlooked. 
He assumes the mass of the vehicle was equally supported by each of the 4 tires - this is not so. Each tire has a load that is different. For practical considerations, I would think one can safely assume that the vehicle is symmetric in mass along the driveline axis. This would allow us to consider load per axle. I am sure that a measured axle weight would be different for the front and rear.
The other significant issue is that the load index is a function of tire pressure. Using the Dunlop M3s as an example, the tire pressure would need to be 51 psi for the tires to exhibit a load index of 99 (1709 lbs. capacity); (the tire pressure is from Dunlop's data sheets).
A most important consideration that you did note is that generally we don't push the vehicle to its upper limits (which is even less likely if the driving conditions are poor - snow, slush and salt covered cars). But, using tires such as the Dunlop M3s in a 235/55HR17, I would keep the air pressure high, I would not overload the vehicle, and I would keep the speed under 100 mph. I feel that at sustained velocities greater than 100 mph with 4 large adults in the vehicle, the tires may no longer be able to shed heat quickly enough to avoid mechanical failure.

Douglas,
The calculations were mine. And, if we consider an unladen vehicle, I have found various weight distributions specificed for a W12 Phaeton on the internet, the most extreme of which shows 58% front, 42% rear. 
Given the curb weight of 5399 lbs, this would mean 3131 lbs. front (1565 lbs. per side, using your assumption of a 50/50 distribution left to right) and 2267 lbs. rear (1134 lbs. per side) -- again, both within the tire's spec.
Now, looking at the vehicle fully laden becomes a bit of a conundrum as I wasn't able to find a weight distribution listed. For the sake of discussion, let's assume the weight distribution would be reversed with 42% front, 58% rear. (I think this is "extreme" -- anyone with knowledge, please impart your wisdom!) 
Using a fully laden weight limit of 6367 lbs, we would have 2674 lbs. front (1337 lbs. per side) and 3692 lbs. rear (1846 lbs. per side). <~~ *Uh oh!* We've just exceeded our limit of 1709 lbs. by 137 lbs. Again, that's citing worst case scenarios, running at the tire's top rated speed, which I believe to be H-rated at 130 MPH.
So:
*1)* Mil Spec says "Don't do it".
*2)* Common sense says that Bellios personally wouldn't worry about it if he were shopping for tires for his Phaeton.
Keep in mind that one precursor to tire failure is heat/pressure buildup, both things monitored by our ever-vigilant Tire Pressure Monitoring System. The TPMS does monitor pressure increase as well as decrease and factors in ambient temperature inside the tire to normalize the reading to 68°F/20°C. From that, I believe any overheating would be reported to you.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_According to vw.com, the Phaeton W12 (arguably the heavier of the two), has a curb weight of 5399 lbs. or 2449 kg.

I can vouch for the accuracy of that number. I weighed my W12 Phaeton at a roadside scale on the way down to David's house, and the gross weight of the vehicle was 5,620 pounds. From that, you need to deduct 160 pounds for me (I was sitting in it) and about 40 pounds for my baggage and other junk that was in the trunk. The other 21 pounds is probably the weight of the dirt in the floormats, and the CD's in the changer...
I note that the load ratings increment by 25 kg per unit from 99 up to 103. In other words, the 99 rated tire is good for 775 kg, and the 103 rated tire is good for 875 kg. I am going to try really hard to get to Dresden next week, and if I make it there, I will get the European tire specifications for the LWB V8 and W12 Phaetons.
Michael


----------



## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Phaeton performance in Snow (PC Dave)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PC Dave* »_I'm just wondering what VW's position would be in any kind of liability situation (i.e., you used a tire that didn't meet spec, we're not responsible for anything). 

Dave,
Basically the Dealer shouldn't sell you anything that isn't "MIL SPEC". So, if you were to get the Dunlops from somewhere else and (insert deity or overseeing entity of your choosing) Forbid something happened, the liability (if there were any) would exist w/ the seller.


----------



## PC Dave (Nov 29, 2001)

*Volkswagen has spoken!*

Good news for those of us with Dunlops - and Milspec validation for Chris and Tire Rack! I asked Heather at the Phaeton customer care center to check into acceptable/recommended load ratings yesterday to clear up the issue from a VW/liability perspective. She left a message, and I called her back this afternoon, ended up speaking with her colleague Terry (Heather was on the phone, but had documented the response). VW's official recommended 17" snow tire is the Dunlop Winter Sport M2, 235/55 R 17 *99*H. This is good news, since my Borbet CA/Dunlop package arrived from Tire Rack about an hour ago.
In the interim, I guess this controversy has spooked Tire Rack - they've taken most of their Phaeton V8 winter tires off the site, their only recommended one is the Conti with the 103 rating. Maybe now they'll put the others back on the site. 
Edit: I just realized my tires, and TireRack's recommended package, included the Dunlop Winter Sport M3, not the M2. That being said, it's hard for VW to call foul on a different Dunlop Winter Sport in the same size, with the same load rating, under the circumstances. 

_Modified by PC Dave at 9:12 PM 11-10-2005_


_Modified by PC Dave at 9:17 PM 11-10-2005_


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Volkswagen has spoken! (PC Dave)*

Thanks for providing that information, Dave.
It is interesting to note that a lower weight rating (99) is acceptable on a smaller tire (17 inch). I guess there must be a lot of engineering in this whole field of study that we as end users are not aware of.
My guess is that you will get much better snow performance out of the 17 inch tires than you would out of 18 inch ones - simply because they are narrower, and will cut through the snow better. I purchased 18 inch snows, but my concern is traction on ice, not travel through any significant accumulation of snow.
Michael


----------



## PC Dave (Nov 29, 2001)

*Re: Volkswagen has spoken! (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_My guess is that you will get much better snow performance out of the 17 inch tires than you would out of 18 inch ones - simply because they are narrower, and will cut through the snow better. I purchased 18 inch snows, but my concern is traction on ice, not travel through any significant accumulation of snow.
Michael

TireRack goes into the theory of why they recommend Minus One sizing for winter tires and wheels: http://www.tirerack.com/winter...d=126
I've heard the same elsewhere. Interestingly, TR's recommended tire/wheel package for the W12 is an 18" package, while the recommended package for the V8 is 17". Apparently they feel that the incremental weight precludes using 17" tires on the W12; also, I know that the standard tire/wheel in Europe for the V8 is 17", I'm guessing it's 18" for the W12, and TR seems to factor European applications into their recommendations.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Volkswagen has spoken! (PC Dave)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PC Dave* »_...I know that the standard tire/wheel in Europe for the V8 is 17", I'm guessing it's 18" for the W12...

Your guess is correct, both for summer and winter tire fitment.
Michael


----------



## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: Volkswagen has spoken! (PC Dave)*

Dave,
I was on the phone with Heather this afternoon - speaking to her about the same issue... I would recommend that when using the tires with a 99 load rating, you do not fully load the vehicle and expect it to drive at sustained high speed (above 85mph - I backed this number off of what I posted earlier - the manufacturer requires 1 lb extra air pressure for every 6 mph over 100 mph). With a moderate load (2 people & 1 suitcase), the velocity is not really an issue.
Douglas
P.S. Dunlop also seems to be in a very cautious mood - they also deleted from their website all the tire recommendations they had for the Phaeton (including the Winter Sport M3 - again due to the load rating issue).


_Modified by copernicus0001 at 5:58 PM 11-10-2005_


----------



## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: Volkswagen has spoken! (copernicus0001)*

Dave,
Let us know how you like the snow tires... I ended up ordering a setup very similar - I went with a +0 sizing for the 17" tire - I ordered the Dunlop Winter Sport M3 in a 245/55-HR17. These tires have a 102 load index. Unfortunately, tire rack did not have any - I sourced them through another distributor.
Doug


----------



## PC Dave (Nov 29, 2001)

*Re: Volkswagen has spoken! (copernicus0001)*

I'll give some impressions when I get them mounted - been traveling the last week or so, and about to leave again for 10 days for business/Thanksgiving, I'll mount when I return. We got our first snow dump of the winter yesterday, and the Phaeton got its first serious miles in months - it's out of hibernation and into the winter wonderland; loving those heated seats...


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Third digit: This is what you need to change, it indicates what will be monitored. *2* selects 5 tires, *3* selects only 4 tires (this is used for European Phaetons that do not ship with a spare tire), and there is another code - I will try and find out what it is today - to indicate that nothing is to be monitored. Probably *0* or *1*, but I don't know for sure yet.


Did anyone figure out if you change the 3rd digit to 0 or 1? I just put the winter shoes on and the OEM wheels don't have the TPM sensors.
Regards,
Brent


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Turning Off The TPMS*

"As far as I understand it, TPM (Tire Pressure Monitoring) cannot be turned off by the owner using the controls in the center console, but it can easily be turned off by the service technician using the VAS 5051 or VAS 5052 diagnostic and programming tool.
This is done by going to Controller Group 65 (Tire Pressure Monitoring), and changing the 3rd digit of the 5 digit code that appears when function 7 (coding) is selected. Here is the breakdown of what the different digits mean:
Example: 5 digit code on my W12 Phaeton: 10284
First digit: 1 indicates that Beru is the manufacturer of the monitoring system. I believe this is the same for all Phaetons manufactured so far.
Second digit: 0 indicates the time period used for the monitoring process. 0 is the standard choice.
Third digit: This is what you need to change, it indicates what will be monitored. 2 selects 5 tires, 3 selects only 4 tires (this is used for European Phaetons that do not ship with a spare tire), and there is another code - I will try and find out what it is today - to indicate that nothing is to be monitored. Probably 0 or 1, but I don't know for sure yet.
Fourth digit: Indicates what engine is installed. I don't know what this has to do with TPM, but it must have some significance. 0 is a V6, 3 is a V8, 4 is a V10 TDI, and 8 is a W12.
Fifth digit: Indicates target pressures with a full load. This is normally set to 4, which means standard.
I'll get back to you when I get the complete information you need.
Michael
Modified by PanEuropean at 1:50 AM 10-30-2004"
This is from the early topic on snow tires. Well I tried to change the 3rd digit to 1, then 0, then 4, then all digits to 0. The VAG-COM accepts the 1 and 4 and even the 0. But after shut down, two minutes with doors locked, the 0 defaults back to the previous setting. The 1 and 4 will remain as a setting. But I still get the warning light no matter what I change. Any ideas? I don't want to drive around all winter looking at a flat tire on the MFI.
Regards,
Brent



_Modified by W126C at 7:39 PM 11-19-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Turning Off The TPMS (W126C)*

Brent:
Here is a 'shot in the dark' - I have not tested it, but it might work.
Open up controller 07, which is the J523 Front Information Display Control Head (the big control screen between the two front seats), and try deducting 2 (two) from the third digit from the right on the coding for this controller. In other words, if your J523 is currently coded 0500305, try changing it to 0500*1*05. You can see the current coding for your personal car if you click on this link.
By doing this, you will be telling the car that it does not have a TPMS system installed at all. Perhaps this might achieve the desired result, which is to eliminate the warnings.
Let us know what the result is.
Michael


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Turning Off The TPMS (PanEuropean)*

Thanks Michael,
It's a no go with trying to recode the J523. I'm off to Georgia now, I'll check in later in the week.
Regards,
Brent


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Turning Off The TPMS (W126C)*

Back to the topic of which snow tires to buy - I just got an email from my VW dealer in Canada telling me that the Conti's that I had ordered are still on back order, delivery date unknown. So, now I am going to see if it is possible to buy the Nokian WR tires in North America.
The Nokian Hakkapeliitta tires are intended for use with studs in areas that get heavy snow accumulation, whereas the WR's are designed for use without studs in areas that get more slush and ice than actual hard-packed snow. For where I use my Phaeton (Toronto, Canada), slush and ice traction when braking is far more important than deep snow traction when accelerating.
I note that in Europe, the Nokian WR tires are available in 235/50 R18 with a 101 XL load rating and a W speed rating - that's enough for me to feel comfortable with them, I can't ever imagine driving faster than 270 km/h (170 MPH) on snow tires.
Michael
Nokian WR Series


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## bobschneider (Oct 12, 2004)

*Re: Volkswagen has spoken! (PanEuropean)*

Michael, could the European requirement for minimum 18" wheels for a W12 be driven by the monster front brakes those cars have? I just put the 17" Borbet CAs and Dunlop Wintersport M3s I had used on my V8 last season onto my new W12, and I didn't have a lot of clearance around the front calipers. If they were another 1/4" further out, the wheels might not have fit. I suspect that a typical 17" wheel wouldn't clear the front brakes on a European W12.
BTW, my snows are 99 rated (I dunno about the wheels) - this was TireRack's reccomendation last year for my V8. We'll see how this works out, although I'm not too worried about it, since I rarely drive with a full car or over 85mph. But I did put an extra 3lbs of air in each tire, to be safe.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Volkswagen has spoken! (bobschneider)*

Hi Bob:
Nice to hear from you!
As far as I can tell, there are no 17 inch wheels approved for any W12, NAR or ROW. I don't think this is a brake caliper issue, I think it is more of a weight-bearing and torque-bearing issue. The choice of factory wheels for the W12 is limited to 18 and 19 inch wheels only.
As for the tire rating - it appears that the LWB W12 cars need a 103 rated tire, probably because these LWB W12 Phaetons are darned heavy cars - about 5,300 pounds dry. Personally, I wouldn't be too concerned about putting 101 rated tires on my car if that is all I can find - my wife and I combined weigh 245 pounds, and we rarely carry passengers in the rear. So, that puts the vehicle about 750 pounds under maximum gross weight, and each 'unit' on the rating scale is 25 pounds, which when multiplied by 4 tires, yields a 100 pound max vehicle weight reduction per load index number below 103.
I've attached some pictures I took at the Transparent Factory in Dresden last Thursday, showing the difference between the European and North American front brake calipers for the W12. I think the caliper diameter is pretty much the same on both, although the disc for the European car is bigger.
Michael
*European W12 Front Brake Assembly*








*NAR W12 Front Brake Assembly*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Volkswagen has spoken! (bobschneider)*

I got back to Canada today, and found out that Nokian does not import that tire to Canada. So, I am going to go with the Bridgestone Blizzak LM-22 as shown below. My VW dealer tells me he can get this tire in Canada for about USD $250 each, and, it is the exact same tire that Dresden supplies as OEM fitment if you order a set of winter tires with a W12 LWB Phaeton. Best of all, it has a fairly large chine on the side of it, just outboard of where the sidewall meets the rim, and that should help protect against curb and carwash track scuffs.
Michael
*Bridgestone Blizzak Snow Tire for LWB W12*


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## BPVWPv8 (Dec 2, 2004)

*pls help me pick the correct size snow tire*

hi:
i need to purchase a set of snow tires to mount on my v8's 18" wheels. do you think i should stick with the same 255/45 size as my all seasons are or change to a 235/50 as shown on some of the vw info?
i need to order these by the end of the week.
thx
bob


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: pls help me pick the correct size snow tire (BPVWPv8)*

If you're able to find the 235/50s in a suitable rating, I would go with them. The narrower tread width will allow for greater traction in snow and ice and the higher sidewall will protect better from the potential impact damage potholes present.


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: pls help me pick the correct size snow tire (BPVWPv8)*

You should really consider getting another set of wheels so you don't have to mount tires twice a year. It can be pretty rough on both the tires and wheels and is quite expensive. It would cost at least $100 twice a year and the Borbet CAs cost only around $650. So you've paid for the wheels in maybe 3 years, and have made the changeover much easier. It's also a plus when you sell the car to offer the snows and wheels with the deal.
TireRack has the 17" German Borbet CAs at a very reasonable price and they look very much like the stock Challenge wheels. They claim they are certified in Germany for the Phaeton.
I, along with several other forum members, have purchased these wheels along with the highly rated Dunlop M3s. Mine came mounted and balanced delivered for around $1,200. I haven't put them on yet, but will soon.
You do however lose the tire pressure monitoring system (TPMS) unless you purchase an extra set of sensors. I don't know if TireRack will install the sensors when mounting the tires.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: pls help me pick the correct size snow tire (car_guy)*

I do have a second set of wheels (Performance rims) that I bought from Adrian last spring for snow tire use. I have also purchased 4 additional tire pressure sensors. The only delay now - and this is kind of funny - is getting the tires. There are not a lot of North American tire importers who stock the size and weight rating that the NAR W12 needs.
Michael
*My Snow Tire Rims, ready to go*
(They are not made by Lowenhart - Adrian just used Lowenhart boxes to ship them to me.)


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## BPVWPv8 (Dec 2, 2004)

*Re: pls help me pick the correct size snow tire (car_guy)*

steven;
yes, i had considered another set of wheels but since i have only 2 winters left before my lease ends i think i am better off changing the tires seasonally. if i was going to keep the car for a longer time i would buy the wheels you suggested in your post.
so i am left to figure out which snow tires to buy...dunlops look most appealing aside from the nokian; i used to have the nokia happakelletta (sp) years ago on saabs.
bob


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: pls help me pick the correct size snow tire (PanEuropean)*

This snow tire saga for my W12 is getting funnier and funnier every day.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I ordered a set of Conti's through my VW dealer about 6 weeks ago. Well - the Conti distributor in Canada still hasn't got the stock in, so last week, my dealer sent me an email (knowing I was in Europe) advising me of this problem, and asking if I would like to order a different brand of tires. So, after some digging around - mostly looking on the Tire Rack website - I asked the parts manager to order me a set of Bridgestone Blizzak LM 22's with the 103 XL load rating.
Today I got a phone call from the dealership - the Canadian distributor for Bridgestone doesn't have those in stock, but my dealership staff did some frantic research, and found that they can order the tires from - you guessed it - The Tire Rack, and have them here for early next week, so, they proposed to me that they do this. Tire Rack offers two day delivery to Canada.
Geez, have those tire companies forgot that it snows a lot up here in Canada? I'd hate to think that just because there are only fourteen W12 Phaetons in the whole country, they have decided not to stock tires for us...








Michael


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: pls help me pick the correct size snow tire (PanEuropean)*

And not a moment too soon, judging from the latest dopplar returns. The white stuff's coming down here as we speak...


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## dtwphaeton (Sep 7, 2004)

*Re: pls help me pick the correct size snow tire (PanEuropean)*

Doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in Continental or Bridgestone, but I think you will be happy with how it turned out (if indeed you get anything at all). I am going into my second season with the Blizzaks you chose mounted on the Challenge rims, and the car is unstoppable. A little noisy but really worth it.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: pls help me pick the correct size snow tire (dtwphaeton)*

Thanks for that info, Joe, it makes the wait worthwhile.
Michael


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## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: pls help me pick the correct size snow tire (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
I have used the Blizzaks in the past as well... they are great tires. I have also used Nokians (NRW) - also quite excellent. This time around, I am trying the Dunlop WinterSport M3 (due to fitment and availability limitations). Hopefully, they will be as good. 
I considered the Continentals - however, the people I spoke with at TireRack said they were "the worst tire in this category of tire (performance winter tire)". Perhaps not being able to source the Continentals was a blessing in disguise.
Douglas


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## dtwphaeton (Sep 7, 2004)

*Re: pls help me pick the correct size snow tire (copernicus0001)*

I used the Dunlop WinterSport M3s on the Audi I owned previously. Compared to the Blizzak LM-22s, I would say the Dunlops were a little quieter and handled a little more precisely on dry roads. On snowy roads, the Dunlops were also certainly very good and I think you will be pleased; however, the Blizzaks seem even better. You just can't make them slip without really trying.


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## BPVWPv8 (Dec 2, 2004)

*TireRack was outright rude on the phone*

i have never been treated as curtly as i waws by TireRack in the many decades that i have been buying tires from various sources. there was no dicussion allowed regarding choices on snow tires for the phaeton. i was so disgusted that i decided not to purchase anything from tirerack this round.
instead, my $1,150 went to a local chain around nyc, mavistire.com. they gave me 2 choices to put on my 18" challenger wheels, the blizzak or pirelli. since they had the pirelli in stock and it was the latest and greatest from them i went ahead. I now have 18" pirelli snows on my car and am sure they will be better than the stock all seasons for braking and turing in snow.
however, the load rating is 99, not 103. also noticed the max inflation pressure is 51. so i hope not to load it up and drive over 85mph. also hope that inflating the tires to the low-mid 40lbs psi is ok too.
i didn't want to get overly obessive on this purchase...a new experience for me!
thx
bob


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## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: TireRack was outright rude on the phone (BPVWPv8)*

Bob,
That's unfortunate that you had a bad experience with TireRack. They were very polite with me - I ended up purchasing tires from another source (discounttiredirect.com) since they had the tire available that I wanted - and TireRack did not.
Let us know how the Pirelli's work for you in the snow.. 
Doug


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## Mr Johann Vegas (Jun 10, 2004)

*Re: TireRack was outright rude on the phone (BPVWPv8)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BPVWPv8* »_i have never been treated as curtly as i waws by TireRack in the many decades that i have been buying tires from various sources. *there was no dicussion allowed regarding choices on snow tires for the phaeton.*
[...later on]
*however, the load rating is 99, not 103.* also noticed the max inflation pressure is 51. so i hope not to load it up and drive over 85mph. 

The reason you were not given any choice is that there is probably only the one brand/model of tire in the desired fittment and NECESSARY load rating in Tire Rack's stock. By asking them to sell you a different tire, you were asking them to accept a liability that was far, far greater then the value of your sale. As far as I am concerned, the Tire Rack is one of the few companies out there that actually TESTS fittment and has sales staff knowledgeable about your particular vehicle. When shopping for snow tires for my R32, they prevented me from ordering under-load (88y vs 91y) tires, a factor many buyers don't consider. I am sorry that you feel slighted by them, but I have to believe they had your best interests at heart, as well as protecting themselves from a potentially messy liability risk. Best of luck with your snows, they make a world of difference.


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## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: TireRack was outright rude on the phone (Mr Johann Vegas)*

This is a very good point... I had ordered tires from TireRack with a 99 load index - at the time, VW's recommendation was a 103 load index. I placed the order online on a Sunday.
On Monday morning, a salesperson called and left a message regarding the load rating issue - and needed to talk with me (so I understood the issue) before they would ship the tires.
I ended up purchasing different tires with a more appropriate load rating. Unfortunately, TireRack no longer could supply the tires I desired, so I purchased them elsewhere.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: TireRack was outright rude on the phone (copernicus0001)*


_Quote, originally posted by *copernicus0001* »_On Monday morning, a salesperson called and left a message regarding the load rating issue - and needed to talk with me (so I understood the issue) before they would ship the tires.

That's darn nice of them to do that - I am quite impressed.
I think that once this winter has passed, all the major tire retailers will have figured out that we need to have the 103 load rating tires on our Phaetons if we want to put them on the 18 inch wheels.
This problem doesn't exist in Europe, because if you want snow tires for your Phaeton there, you just order a complete set of wheels, tires, and TPMS sensors, all pre-assembled. You can even make the purchase at the time you order the car (in other words, order a second set of wheels, tires, and sensors as an option), and this is a really inexpensive way of doing things - the whole kit costs about $1,200 when you order it that way.
The V8 owners can, I think, get away with a 99 load rating if they use the 17 inch wheels - which are the 'recommended' snow tire wheel, only because the 17 inch wheel will accept tire chains. We who have W12s are pretty much restricted to the 103 load rating, whether we use the stock Challenge or Performance rims, or we use the 'recommended' - but not available in North America - Champion 18 inch rim for our snow tires.
Who would have ever thought that tires were this complicated? Wow.
Michael


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## BPVWPv8 (Dec 2, 2004)

*Re: TireRack was outright rude on the phone (Mr Johann Vegas)*

Mr johann vegas:
i do understand why tire rack said what they said but there is a polite way and a rude way to say it. in following this thread i noted this topic had come up before and some tire shops (forget if it was t r) allowed the purchase along with the signing of a release regarding the load rating. the rep i spoke with was not informative, he was curt, unhelpful and gave me absolutely no reason at all to ever buy another tire from tire rack. not a good way to treat a customer that has bought tires from tire rack for years...
i really wonder how the 99 vs. 103 load rating differential will impacat me as a driver of a v8? any thoughts on that?


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## PC Dave (Nov 29, 2001)

*Re: TireRack was outright rude on the phone (BPVWPv8)*

I'm sorry TireRack treated you poorly - those of us on the forum brought this issue to their attention and made their lives difficult, at this point they probably wish the Phaeton would just go away.
As you read on the previous page on this thread, we checked with VWoA via Phaeton Care after the issue came up with Tire Rack. VW's Phaeton Care checked with their internal service advisors, and they came back confirming that the recommended - not allowed, RECOMMENDED - 17" winter tire for the V8 Phaeton is the Dunlop Winter Sport M2, 235/55 R 17 99H. Based on that, I'd say you're safe with a 99 load rating 17" tire (if you want to mount 18" snow tires on your Challenge wheels, that's a different matter). If you want to confirm for your own peace of mind, check the thread for the names of the reps we talked to and ask for them at 877-PHAETON.


_Modified by PC Dave at 6:04 PM 11-29-2005_


----------



## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: TireRack was outright rude on the phone (PC Dave)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PC Dave* »_
As you read on the previous page on this thread, we checked with VWoA via Phaeton Care after the issue came up with Tire Rack. VW's Phaeton Care checked with their internal service advisors, and they came back confirming that the recommended - not allowed, RECOMMENDED - 17" winter tire for the V8 Phaeton is the Dunlop Winter Sport M2, 235/55 R 17 99H. 

I think you meant the M3, not the M2, right? I don't see the M2 listed in that size. 
I purchase the M3s and wheels and will be putting them on very soon.


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## PC Dave (Nov 29, 2001)

*Re: TireRack was outright rude on the phone (car_guy)*

Steven, TireRack's recommended package was the M3, and that's the one that I bought with the Borbet CA's. VWoA told me that their recommended tire was the M2 - that's what I wrote down, I don't think I made a typo. As I mentioned, I don't think that VWoA can say that there's a problem with the M3 when their recommendation was for another Dunlop tire in the same size and load rating, so I feel comfortable going forward with the M3s.


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## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: TireRack was outright rude on the phone (PC Dave)*

The M2 was the old version of the Dunlop WinterSport. The M3 is the newest version in that series.
I also purchased the Dunlop WinterSport M3 tires for my V8, which is in Wisconsin.... However, I went with the 245/55HR17 102 instead of the 235/55HR17 99 tires. This is a +0 size (about 3/8" wider) but with the higher load rating. TireRack did not have the 245/55HR17 102 M3s available.
I think either tire will perform equally well in most circumstances (actually, the 235/55 tires are a bit narrower and may perform slightly better in the snow than the 245/55 tires - although the difference may not be discernible). My only recommendation would be not to run a fully loaded vehicle at sustained speeds higher than about 90 or 100 mph with the 235/55HR17 99 tires.
Below is a table comparing three different tire sizes for the Phaeton: 255/45R18 (standard 18"), 235/55R17 (standard 17"), 245/55R17 (+0 17"). I used the standard 18" size as the reference.









_Modified by copernicus0001 at 3:49 PM 11-29-2005_


_Modified by copernicus0001 at 3:52 PM 11-29-2005_


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## kmoneymg (Nov 9, 2005)

*Re: pls help me pick the correct size snow tire (PanEuropean)*

hey where and how did you get those performance rims those are 17'' right ???can the dunlap wintersport m3 tires go on them are the performance rims safe for the weight of the w12 im sure that it is so since i see you know your stuff .. if you could just guide me in the right direction for those rims i would appreciate it and any other feed back you have i like the dunlop v tred alot so im settled on it . it has good ratings and i belive they are run flat they should hold the w12 weight correct??? please any help Michael


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: pls help me pick the correct size snow tire (kmoneymg)*

Quois??? Exactement que faites-vous ici?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: pls help me pick the correct size snow tire (kmoneymg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kmoneymg* »_hey where and how did you get those performance rims...

Hello Jason:
I bought those rims from another Phaeton forum member in the springtime - he replaced them with aftermarket rims. They are the normal, everyday, standard 18 inch rims that are supplied with just about every 2005 or 2006 Phaeton that has a V8 engine in it.
Although I was going to use them for snow tires on my W12 (because the Performance rims are approved for use on a W12), I have never really been excited about the appearance of the Performance rim on a black car, which is what I have. The black car is kind of formal looking, and the Performance rim is sporty looking. So, I did a swap with my VW dealer - he has a 2004 V8 that he is trying to sell (it is the service loaner car) - that car came with Challenge rims, same as what I have on my W12. We're going to have a big tire and rim swapping party on Friday - I'm taking the Challenge rims off his demo to use on my W12 for the snow tires, and he's going to put the Performance rims on the V8 that he is trying to sell.
By doing this, it works out great for all of us. I wind up with 8 rims that are all the same, and he gets a set of snazzy looking rims for his silver colour V8 demo, hopefully that will help him sell the thing.
If you want to buy Performance rims (as I mentioned, they are approved for the W12), you can order them through the parts department of any VW dealer. Just look up the wheel choices available for a MY 2005 V8 Phaeton. There will be two choices, one is the 18 inch Performance wheel, and the other is a 17 inch wheel.
Michael


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## kmoneymg (Nov 9, 2005)

Thank you Michael grate help!!


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## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Dunlop WinterSport M3 245/55R17 102H on Expression Wheels*

I finally got the snow tires installed on the V8 - Dunlop WinterSport M3 tires in a +0 size of 245/55R17 102H. The wheels are the VW Expressions (7½ J by 17, offset depth 40 Part Number 3D0 601 025 M 1Z2)
Please excuse the less-than-stellar photo... the car is a bit grimy (some salt on it) and the photo was taken at night...


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Dunlop WinterSport M3 245/55R17 102H on Expression Wheels (copernicus0001)*

Wow! Those wheels are not available in NAR except by special order through the parts catalog. They are perfect snow tires wheels because they have a cap in the middle that keeps the snow and ice out of the wheel nuts.
Michael


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## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: pls help me pick the correct size snow tire (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
I got a set of Blizzak on my V8 Phaeton. I think you will like them. Worth the wait.
Bob.


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Dunlop WinterSport M3 245/55R17 102H on Expression Wheels (copernicus0001)*


_Quote, originally posted by *copernicus0001* »_The wheels are the VW Expressions (7½ J by 17, offset depth 40 Part Number 3D0 601 025 M 1Z2)

Rawther fond of the wheels -- now if you could get someone driving next to you take a snap of them in motion...


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## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: Dunlop WinterSport M3 245/55R17 102H on Expression Wheels (copernicus0001)*

P.S. We had a couple inches of snow yesterday... The tires performed very well...


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## PC Dave (Nov 29, 2001)

*Re: Volkswagen has spoken! (copernicus0001)*


_Quote, originally posted by *copernicus0001* »_Dave,
Let us know how you like the snow tires... 
Doug

Doug, I finally mounted them on Monday, quite timely since I made a 750 mile round trip to eastern Wyoming yesterday and today through an unexpected snowstorm. The tires were great - except in direct falling snow, I made my usual speed in Wyoming (indicated 85), limited by fear of the WHP (which has already lightened my wallet) rather than lack of traction. Deep snow, packed snow, slush, no problem, the only time I had insufficient traction was when a tractor-trailer slowed unexpectedly (and rapidly) in a small white-out, the tires didn't have sufficient traction for the brakes and I got several ABS pulses. I was following at a decent distance, so no harm. I spent some time on icy roads as well, again no problems. I really like these tires so far.
The Phaeton dealt less well with the hyper-cold weather. I parked the car outside at my hotel last night, and the overnight low in Laramie was -25 degrees, and -15 degrees when I left this morning. I didn't have time for a long warm up, and the car (and some controls) felt pretty stiff; there were also some noises that I'd never heard before for the first few minutes. On the drive back to Utah, after the car warmed up, it was back to its usual self in 0 to -12 degree weather the whole way; the only problem was keeping the windshield clean, since the gas station squeegees were all frozen in their bins







The windshield washer nozzles worked, but the wipers were too frozen to wipe off the fluid, so it hurt rather than helped. I'm going to have to carry some washer fluid in the trunk with paper towels if the weather doesn't warm up soon.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Volkswagen has spoken! (PC Dave)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PC Dave* »_The windshield washer nozzles worked, but the wipers were too frozen to wipe off the fluid, so it hurt rather than helped...

Hmmmm - it's not supposed to be like that. I believe that the area under where the two wiper blades park is heated, for the specific purpose of keeping the blades pliable at low temperatures. I don't know what process is used to heat that area (airflow or electricity), but I will try to find out...
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Volkswagen has spoken! (PanEuropean)*

The wiper blade park position is electrically heated, on the same circuit as the two washer nozzles. The heater element is component Z56, and it is shown on Phaeton wiring diagram 24/3. Maybe the next time you are at your dealership for regular service, you can ask them to function-check it for you. That should be quick and easy to do, using a spot pyrometer (temperature measuring gun).
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Volkswagen has spoken! (PanEuropean)*

I finally got my Bridgestone Blizzak LM 22 tires installed this week. I am very happy with these tires so far. We have had a few snowfalls this week, and the Phaeton corners and stops much better with the snow tires on. Accelerating was never a concern with the all-season tires, but cornering and braking wasn't the greatest, compared to my Golf with winter tires. Now, the Phaeton is even better on snow and ice than the Golf, thanks to the four wheel drive of the Phaeton.
The techs at my dealership did all the work on this. Below are a few pictures. Of most interest to me was the fact that they pre-balanced the empty rim (with the tire pressure monitor installed) to identify the lightest spot on the rim. Then, when they installed the tire, they lined the yellow dot on the tire up with the lightest spot on the rim, rather than just lining it up with the valve stem. The result on two of the four wheels was that no weights of any kind were needed for to achieve a perfect balance once the tire was installed. The other two tires needed only a few grams of weights each.
One nice thing about these Blizzak LM 22 tires with the 103 load rating is that they were designed specifically for the Phaeton. The have quite a large chine on the side of the tire that does a great job of protecting the rim. It is possible to put the tire face down on the floor without the rim touching the floor. This chine gives about 1/2 an inch of 'curb' protection to the rim.
Michael
*Marking the summer tires, so they get put back in the right position next spring*








*Balancing the empty rim (with tire pressure sensor) first to find the light spot*








*Mounting the tire on the rim. A plastic tool is used, to avoid scuffing the rim.*








*The benefit of finding the light spot on the empty rim first - no weights needed once the tire is installed.*








*A close-up of the chine on the tire.*








*Getting everything organized first - the snow tires have a directional tread pattern.*








*The final result.*


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## George Infanti (Jan 19, 2006)

*Winter tires for Phaeton 2004*

I have a 2004 Phaeton with Bridgestone Potenza tires on it, which the dealer said were factory tires, but appear to not be. The car has 8000 miles on it and they are useless in the snow. I would appreciate suggestions on tires for snow and ice and in the near future I need to repace these, as they are 2/3 worn in this low mileage. Has anyone else had this problem? Thank you in advance. We looked at 17 inch snows and replacement wheels for winter but they would not fit over the calipers on the front.


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Winter tires for Phaeton 2004 (George Infanti)*

It seems strange that your car has gone through most of a set of tires and possibly a previous set in 8000 miles. I think most other drivers are getting more than 30k on the original Michelin all-seasons. High performance summer tires will wear quite a bit faster, though.
Several forum members including myself have bought 17x7 Borbet Type CA Silver wheels (look like the Challenge wheels) and 235/55HR-17 Dunlop Winter Sport M3 tires from TireRack.com. The cost was a very reasonable $1240 plus around $72 shipping. They come mounted and balanced, and ready to put on the car. You should read Michael's (the moderator) post on changing wheels. It's really important if you or anyone else does it.
They do make a remarkable difference in the snow. They are noisier than the Michelins, especially when cornering. 
BTW, I have the V8 Phaeton. I'm not sure whether the combination above is suitable for the W12 due to the weight and torque difference.


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## George Infanti (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: Winter tires for Phaeton 2004 (George Infanti)*

Steven, thank you for your reply. I bought the car with 3000 miles on it and the dealer had Bridgestone Potenzas on it. I asked the dealer about it and he said they were one of five tires that came on the car. Since then I have checked with VW and they say onlky Michelins come on it. With 8000 miles on the car they are about 60-70% worn i am told. I went to Town Fare Tire up here in Nashua and they first ordered 17 inch tires and wheels for it and they did not fit in place of the 18 inch original wheels. At this point they are still researching it but it sounds like your idea makes more sense. They were giving me wheels and tires which were canadian tires for about 1200 but now they say I may have to use my 18 inch wheels and their tires for 1000.00. I like your idea much better. George


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

George,
Is your Phaeton a W12 or a V8? Your wheel and tire choices are more limited with a W12.
~PC


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## George Infanti (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: (PhaetonChix)*

It is a 2004 W8 with 18 inch wheels and tires. Thanks


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## PC Dave (Nov 29, 2001)

*Re: (George Infanti)*

George, I'll second Steven's recommendation of the Dunlops (and of the Borbet wheels, though that's less important). I installed that package in December, and I couldn't be happier - I live in Park City, Utah, a town with 3 ski resorts, and I spend most of my time now driving in snow and ice with complete confidence. Note that Tire Rack might not sell those tires for Phaetons anymore due to load rating concerns (spurious, imho); read all the way through the following thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1643764
Good luck,
Dave


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Winter tires for Phaeton 2004 (George Infanti)*

Hi George:
Welcome to the Phaeton forum. Sorry to hear you are having grief with your snow tires (poor grip) and also encountering poor tire longevity.
The ONLY tires (that I know of) that were ever installed at the factory on Phaetons destined for North America were Michelin all season tires. You can confirm whether this applies to your car by looking at the production code sticker for your car, and checking to see if the code *V0G* appears on the sticker. There is more information about how to find the production code stickers and interpret them at this post: Understanding Phaeton Production Codes & Build Stickers.
I can't recall seeing a single report from an owner of problems with poor tire wear (longevity of the tires) here on the forum. Some of the Phaeton owners in Switzerland have worn out tires fairly early (Hi, Daniel...







) but that has been due to twisty mountain roads, not problems with the tires themselves. I am not familiar with the tires you have (Bridgestone Potenzas), but my first thought would be that perhaps the load rating of those tires is not sufficient for the very heavy weight of the all steel Phaeton. I think that the two models of Phaeton that have been imported to North America (the LWB V8 and LWB W12) both need a tire with a load rating of at least 100, which is very high - higher than about 95% of all tires sold in North America. You might want to check the load rating on the sidewall of your Bridgestone Potenzas - if those tires were not the OEM fitment (meaning, if they were installed on the car after it arrived in North America), it is possible that someone installed tires with an inadequate load rating, and that is why they are wearing out so quickly.
Another thing you might want to check is wheel alignment. We have a pretty comprehensive discussion (with pictures) illustrating the wheel alignment process at this post: Tyre Wear, Information about Phaeton Wheel Alignment. Be aware that it is essential that Phaetons are aligned on a VW approved four wheel alignment tool, such as the Hunter VAG 1944B shown in the photos on that post. You should be given a copy of the printout that the Hunter tool produces at the end of the alignment process, showing the 'before' and 'after' results.
I am using Bridgestone Blizzak LM 22 snow tires on my W12 Phaeton this winter, and I am very, very happy with these tires. They stick to ice extraordinarily well. It was difficult to find these tires - I think Bridgestone manufactures them (in Japan) specifically for the Phaeton - but my VW dealer eventually found them at the Tire rack. You can see pictures of these tires, and read the discussion about the sourcing and fitment process, on the thread Dave already referenced above, Snow tires and wheels?. That is a pretty long and winding discussion, the first few pages will give you a good overview of considerations involved in choosing snow tires for a Phaeton, and the photos of my car and the Bridgestone Blizzak LM 22's are on page 4 of that discussion. I do recommend you read the whole discussion, right from page 1 - if nothing else, you'll see the recurring concern about choosing a tire with an appropriate load rating showing up again and again.
Hope this gets you started on troubleshooting - let us know what you find, and of course, come on back and post your additional questions, thoughts, comments, etc. We're glad you're here, and we are all here to help you.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Winter tires for Phaeton 2004 (PanEuropean)*

George:
Just some follow-up information: Below is an illustration from the European technical documentation for the Phaeton. It shows the all season tires that were approved (from an engineering point of view) for installation on North American Region (NAR) Phaetons.
VW of America chose not to import Phaetons fitted with 16 inch tires, and Phaetons with 17 inch tires are quite rare in North America. By far the most common OEM fitment to NAR Phaetons was 18 inch tires.
Be aware that this table only shows approved *all season* tires. There are other tires approved for the Phaeton, for example, summer only tires or winter only tires.
Again - note the very high load rating required for the Phaeton.
*Approved All Season Tires for the Phaeton*


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

Hmmm. I bought my car with only 13,000 miles and my tires which I thought were original equipment are 18 in. Dunlop Sport 9000 Extra Load. Anyone else have them?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (murphybaileysam)*

Those are approved tires for a Phaeton. Check your build sticker (production code sticker). If you see *V0H* on the sticker, that indicates that Dunlop tires were installed at the factory. I thought that only Phaetons destined for the UK market were equipped with Dunlops, and all NAR Phaetons were fitted with 'all season' tires, but hey, I have been wrong before...
If it turns out that your Phaeton was not equipped with those tires at the factory, then take satisfaction from the fact that whoever replaced them obviously took pains to find and install a VW engineering approved tire on your Phaeton.
Michael
*Approved Summer Tires for the Phaeton*
Be aware that not all sizes are approved for all Phaetons, e.g. you can't put 16's on a NAR Phaeton,
and LWB W12's need a 103XL load rating tire.


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

Thanks Michael - By summer tires am I right to assume they are all season? They have been fine in the small amount of snow so far. By the way, now 2 beers for you at Chgo GTG!


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*275/40 R19 105Y XL Pirelli PZero Rosso*
These summer tires are what I have installed aftermarket. 
Could they be added to the list somehow? 
Does VW have to take them to TUV in Germany to test them first and/or the equivalent government body in the US and Canada?



_Modified by Paldi at 11:12 PM 1-19-2006_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_Does VW have to take them to TUV in Germany to test them first and/or the equivalent government body in the US and Canada?

Hi Fred:
I don't know exactly how it works in Germany, however, I suspect that the actual manufacturer of the vehicle (VW) does not have to go to any outside certifying agency to have components of the vehicle approved. I would assume that in the process of having the entire vehicle approved as conforming to all EC safety specifications, the manufacturer is trusted enough to issue approvals and certifications for the components that they offer as original equipment installations.
The TÜV approvals apply, I think, to components that are offered for sale by aftermarket sources. My understanding is that if you want to fit a component onto your German registered vehicle, you must be able to provide a 'certificate' in the car records book that states that the component is approved for installation onto that vehicle. The certificate could come from the OEM (if, for example, you fitted Challenge wheels onto a Phaeton originally equipped with Performance wheels, or a VW manufactured trailer hitch onto a Phaeton that was not fitted with a trailer hitch in Dresden), or, it could come from an independent certification authority such as TÜV if the component was manufactured by an organization other than VW.
There is no equivalent approval process in Canada or the United States - 'anything goes', no matter how foolish, in these two countries. Heck, there's a thread in the Touareg forum right now from a Touareg owner who wants to know if he can put 16 inch Jetta rims on his Touareg...








Your 275 mm wide tires are 20 mm wider than the approved 19 inch tires, and (20 mm x 40%) or 8 mm greater diameter - I suppose that if you lived in Germany, and wanted to fit these tires to your Phaeton, you could start a process to try and get them approved, and if nothing rubbed or interfered, and the tires were otherwise equal to the approved ones, they might get approved. I don't know. The only suggestion I can offer you, from a 'due diligence' point of view, is to put the car on an alignment rack and then lift it up, and see if you have sufficient clearance everywhere when there is weight on the axles. There is a photo of the kind of alignment rack I am thinking of here: Tyre Wear, Information about Phaeton Wheel Alignment - a device that allows you to move the front wheels from lock to lock, and inspect clearances with weight on the wheels.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (murphybaileysam)*


_Quote, originally posted by *murphybaileysam* »_By summer tires am I right to assume they are all season?

No, not at all, those tires are intended for summer use only. 'All season' tires are a uniquely North American product - they are not used in Europe. If you order a Phaeton in Europe, it will be delivered to you with summer tires (from the manufacturer of your choosing) on it, and you will have the option of ordering a set of winter tires, mounted on rims, to use in the wintertime.
In some countries, such as Switzerland, if you don't have winter tires fitted and you get into an accident, you are at risk of being charged with negligence in the operation of your motor vehicle. If it is determined that the lack of winter tires was a contributing factor to the accident (for example, you skidded into the back of another car on a snow covered surface, with summer tires on your car), your insurance company will simply refuse to pay for the damages. 
Michael


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Did they deliver the NA cars with summer tires or do they use an all-season tire from an American manufacturer? I'm wondering if my car was originally meant for another destination than the U.S. My owners manual doesn't have a build sticker in it, and the place in the trunk where the other one is supposed to be located has been removed. I am hoping that my dealer can enter my VIN number in their system next time I go in for service and let me know exactly what equipment the car has.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (murphybaileysam)*

To the best of my knowledge, Phaetons destined for markets *other *than NAR (North American region, that being Canada, America, and Mexico) will have the letter Z in the VIN several times. Phaetons destined for NAR will not have a letter Z in the VIN. I could be wrong on this (perhaps some of our Middle East and Asian members could double-check their VINs and tell me if this statement appears to be correct).
Don't worry too much about it, Sam, it's probably something much simpler and less troublesome than a gray market vehicle - for example, you got a stolen car or one that had been assembled from a wreck at a chop shop.








Michael


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

No Z's in my VIN! I'll try the summer tires out tomorrow morning on the 8 inches of snow we got tonight!


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## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: (murphybaileysam)*

Sam...
I wouldn't recommend doing too much driving in the snow tomorrow morning with the summer tires you have on your Phaeton.... You likely will be sliding all over the place.... The Phaeton is a heavy vehicle - it will be hard to stop it on the snow with those tires...


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

Thanks for the info. Hopefully most of it will be plowed by tomorrow or I'll have to take the wifes SUV! I get to Kenosha County for business occasionally. Doesn't look too far from you. Maybe a brat GTG next time!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (murphybaileysam)*

Sam, I replied to your Instant Message, but have not heard from you - I wonder if your pop-up blocker is preventing you from seeing IM replies. 
Try clicking on "My Profile" up in the top right of the screen, then click on "Instant Message History". This will allow you to view IM's that have been sent to you in the past 7 days. NB that once you are in the Instant Message History page, you need to click on on the name of the person (the far left column) to bring up the history. If you click "Open IM", that just opens a new, blank IM.
Michael


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## Realist42 (May 14, 2006)

*What to do... (Winter Tyres)*

So this is a bit a conundrum...
Probably taking the Phaeton to the Alps at the end of Jan, and I had planned to stick some winter tyres on my 17" rims for that... It would fit reasonably well with the UK winter season - or so I thought! 
As I know it, the change over point for summer/winter tyres is about 7 degrees Celsius, above that winter tyres smears / Summer tyres harden, both lead to increased breaking distances and loss of stability sideways. 
The kicker here is that we have had so few days with anything approaching conditions for winter tyres, as an example, I have 11 degrees and rain in the UK today.
Don't really want to stick new winter tyres on just for the 10 days that I am away, and as the UK weather is not suited for winter tyres at all, it is better to stick with my summer tyres....
it has crossed my mind to just go with the summer tyres, get a pair of 'Autosocks' for the front should it get bad...
It also crossed my mind to get a spear set of rims, but that it bigger bucks (and still way to close to the Christmas we just had)
On the few occasions that it has been cold since I got the car, I can conclude that the Bridgestones on the rims from VW are much worse when it gets cold compared to my previous tyres (mostly Pirelli P6000) - So I really don't know what to do...
Any suggestions greatly appreciated!
regards
Johan


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## plastech (May 3, 2006)

*Re: What to do... (Realist42)*

Hi Johan,
What wheels do you have fitted,
Tony


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: What to do... (Realist42)*

Borbet wheels are made in Germany. The CA model is, I believe, certified in Germany for at least the V8 Phaeton. TireRack has them for $145 ea. retail (no, I don't work for them!). You can see what they look like on the car by visiting their website. They're not that different from the Challenge wheels, both having seven broad spokes.
I put snows on these from TireRack and they delivered them to my door. They throw in at no additional charge mounting and balancing along with centering caps and lug nuts. I don't know what availability is like in Europe.


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## 98741 (Oct 14, 2006)

*Re: What to do... (car_guy)*

You could rent a car instead of paying for something you'll use for 10 days...


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## Realist42 (May 14, 2006)

*Re: What to do... (plastech)*


_Quote, originally posted by *plastech* »_Hi Johan,
What wheels do you have fitted,
Tony









I have 17" Inspiration fitted, thought long and hard about it when we spec'd the car, but it just rides the best on the 17", so that it what it has... The thought was also to allow for some after market wheels, as the 17" Inspiration are spot on for winter tyres.
Now, that said, having driven it on UK roads for a couple of months, not sure I want any bigger rims...
Regards
Johan


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## Realist42 (May 14, 2006)

*Re: What to do... (sethdallob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sethdallob* »_You could rent a car instead of paying for something you'll use for 10 days...

I agree, it would be great to do that... But I live in the UK, it is an island, and everything outside the island (i.e. the rest of the world) is bad and dangerous, so requires you to pay extra for extra insurance (most of the main hire places like Avis, Herts, Budget so on do this) to take it over-seas - Go figure...
If you want anything a bit bigger with some comfort, well, an E-Class Mercedes is classed as a luxury rental in the UK (but strangely not in Germany) and therefore carries a further premium...
Then, try to take that car across the channel, they then want something like 10-15% surcharge as it is going abroad!
I wont go on, but it is safe to say I have looked at this before, and pretty much always walked away very disappointed. Either I am going to all the wrong places, or they are just charging stupid amounts of money.
You are now very close to the price of a set of wheels, and easily above the price of the tyres. 
...And since this is the UK, it will not come with winter tyres by default, not even sure it can be done from the UK. - I rant, will now stop - sore point...
Thought about flying, but as we are staying in apartments, there is so much stuff to take...

Regards
Johan


----------



## PeterMills (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: What to do... (Realist42)*

I imagine that you saw the string I started a few months back: 
"VWvortex Forums Phaeton Snow Chains - or Winter Tires - for trip to Switzerland?". 
I found the contributions very helpful (especially Michael's). 
I have just got back from Switzerland with my Pirelli Sottozero 240V MO winter performance tyres on a second set of 17" Inspirations. I am leaving these on until after March when I go there again once more. This is all new to me, so I cannot give much long term feedback yet but I instinctively felt very safe out there (temperatures were sub zero) and the car & tyres seem fine here in UK temperatures. I cannot comment on wear yet. I did go for a high performance winter tyre on the basis that this would be less extreme weather oriented so hopefully able to to take warmer winter temperatures. I took Michael's point that two sets of tyres should last twice as long, so the real expense were the wheels. I liked the idea of the additional wheels because when each set is off it can be refurbished, etc.
PETER M


----------



## Realist42 (May 14, 2006)

*Re: What to do... (PeterMills)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PeterMills* »_I imagine that you saw the string I started a few months back: 
"VWvortex Forums Phaeton Snow Chains - or Winter Tires - for trip to Switzerland?". 
I found the contributions very helpful (especially Michael's). 
I have just got back from Switzerland with my Pirelli Sottozero 240V MO winter performance tyres on a second set of 17" Inspirations. I am leaving these on until after March when I go there again once more. This is all new to me, so I cannot give much long term feedback yet but I instinctively felt very safe out there (temperatures were sub zero) and the car & tyres seem fine here in UK temperatures. I cannot comment on wear yet. I did go for a high performance winter tyre on the basis that this would be less extreme weather oriented so hopefully able to to take warmer winter temperatures. I took Michael's point that two sets of tyres should last twice as long, so the real expense were the wheels. I liked the idea of the additional wheels because when each set is off it can be refurbished, etc.
PETER M 

Yes, thanks for reminding me, I had forgotten, been doing to much travelling lately...
Still, have not made up my mind though...
Regards
Johan


----------



## sidcup-jon (Mar 31, 2006)

*Re: What to do... (Realist42)*

Can someone update me on the issue regarding insurance and winter tyres.
Is it mandatory to fit winter tyres or snow chain in certain European country during the winter months otherwise in the event of an accident your insurance will be invalidated.


----------



## PeterMills (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: What to do... (sidcup-jon)*

You have reminded me that this was a further reason for me taking the winter tyre route. I did not do any personal research with my insurers but Michael swung me towards this decision with his talk of potential liabilities, and I don't doubt fora minute that his advice was wise. I also remembered in the Swiss village where we ski seeing a brand new Touareg sliding all over on standard tyres on an icy incline and the look of horror on the elderly owner's face. These are heavy cars.
PETER M


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: What to do... (sidcup-jon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sidcup-jon* »_...otherwise in the event of an accident your insurance will be invalidated.

Jon:
I am by no means an authority on this subject, so what I am going to say is just 'what I understand' (hearsay)... I don't know this to be a fact.
My understanding of the rules in Switzerland is that if you are involved in an accident during winter driving conditions and your car is not appropriately equipped for winter driving conditions (e.g. no windshield washer antifreeze, thus you cannot see out the window; no winter tires, thus the car has less than optimum traction; no chains if you are operating in an area where chains are required to be installed and used), then the attribution of liability for the accident will reflect the degree to which your negligence contributed to the accident.
I am not aware of insurance being 'invalidated' if the car is not appropriately equipped - I don't even think the insurers can repudiate their responsibility to the other party that way - but I do believe it is up to the discretion of the investigating police officer to assess whether or not any negligence in fitment of winter operating equipment was a contributory factor to the accident or not. 
By example: I occasionally ride my motorcycle in CH in the winter, but only if the roads are bare and dry and the temperature is above +5°C. Under these circumstances, no-one could argue that the lack of snow tires on my motorcycle could in any way contribute to whatever misfortune I might encounter.
However - please double-check this, perhaps call the Touring Club of Switzerland or whatever Swiss organization is affiliated with (and equivalent to) the RAC and get a more definitive answer from them.
Michael


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: What to do... (PanEuropean)*

It is also worth keeping in mind that Swiss culture (and thus attitudes towards complying with laws and regulations) can be summed up in one sentence:
_"Everything is forbidden, except what is permitted, and anything that is permitted is obligatory."_








This is, perhaps, more true in the Eastern (German speaking) regions than in the French speaking regions.
Michael


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## sidcup-jon (Mar 31, 2006)

*Re: What to do... (PanEuropean)*

_"Everything is forbidden, except what is permitted, and anything that is permitted is obligatory."_








This also sounds like Singaporean culture as well








Jon


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: What to do... (sidcup-jon)*

You'll have to ask James about that one.







However, I have been to Singapore several times, and I like it a lot - it's just like Switzerland, except it is a heck of a lot warmer and there's more variety in the food available.








Michael


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## Realist42 (May 14, 2006)

*Re: What to do... (PeterMills)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PeterMills* »_ 
I have just got back from Switzerland with my Pirelli Sottozero 240V MO winter performance tyres on a second set of 17" Inspirations. I am leaving these on until after March when I go there again once more....
PETER M 

Peter, 
I have done a little digging on the Sottozero tyres. My local tyre place were very keen to ensure that I knew that the Sottozeros are a Mercedes fitment. Should I care?
Regards
Johan


----------



## sidcup-jon (Mar 31, 2006)

*Re: What to do... (PanEuropean)*

Yes,in many ways Singapore is the Switzerland of the Far East,with the exception of food variety and "what is permitted" is much less than CH.








Rgds
Jon


_Modified by sidcup-jon at 5:35 AM 1-2-2007_


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## PeterMills (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: What to do... (Realist42)*

My VW Retailer supplied me the Pirelli Sottozero 240V MO. They said nothing of Mercedes. I looked the tyres up on the Pirelli website and they did not seem to be specific to the vehicle, but on the website this tyre seemed to be just what I wanted. I also checked on the tyre (after collection) that the weight was within range (cannot remember the maths now) for a SWB Phaeton and that was fine. The prices were on the other posting I refer to above, but about £135 inc VAT a tyre I recall.
Having said all that, if your tyre people think this is as issue, I suggest you raise it with VW luxury cars, 0800 032 2278. Alternatively you could speak to my VW garage, Alistair McFarlane (01603 612111) who arranged my tyres, and see what they say.
I would appreciate hearing what the response(s) are.
PETER M


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## PeterMills (Sep 1, 2006)

*Re: What to do... (PeterMills)*

Realist 42 said above:
"As I know it, the change over point for summer/winter tyres is about 7 degrees Celsius, above that winter tyres smears / Summer tyres harden, both lead to increased breaking distances and loss of stability sideways. "
I just thought I would repeat here the advice UK Pirelli technical gave me over the telephone a few days ago. They said that there was no specific changeover temperature between summer and winter tyres, Though they said the bottom recommended temperature for the Sottozero 240v was -20°C. They accepted that the composition of the tyres meant they would wear a little faster anyway - particularly in hot weather. But they said the main criteria for changing back to Summer tyres would be to avoid the noisiness of winter tyres, resulting from the cross treads. They were categoric that the Sottozero tyres would work perfectly well in terms of safety and road performance if for any reason I did not get around to changing them over.
PETER M


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: What to do... (PeterMills)*

As best I understand it, there is an optimum ambient temperature for changing over from summer tires to winter tires (once the temperature drops below about +7°C), but as Peter explained, it is not so critical going in the other direction (weather warming up).
This appears to be substantiated by the lack of any legislation that prohibits use of winter tires (snow tires) in the summer season... although there is sure a lot of legislation mandating winter tires in the winter season!
Michael


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: What to do... (PeterMills)*

My Blizzaks are doing the job this season. For those with 19" wheels who don't want to keep a set of winter wheels, these tires are the ticket. Noisy on dry roads and hard riding, but they fit and they grip snow.


















_Modified by Paldi at 10:06 PM 1-28-2007_


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: What to do... (Paldi)*

I have the same winter tires (Bridgestone Blizzaks) and I am also very happy with them.
Michael


----------



## BustaCuts (Mar 11, 2007)

*Re: Turning Off The TPMS (PanEuropean)*

did anyone succesfully figure out how to turn the tpms completely off, or is that 3rd digit still a mystery?
-chris


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: What to do... (PanEuropean)*

The Phaeton is in the shop today to have the Blizzaks removed and the PZeros put back. I found 3 absolutely new ones on ebay and also bought two slightly used wheels (to replace one that is scratched and one I curbed) with tires that have about 1000 miles on them. 
The plan is to put two of the three brand new tires on the front because they will wear quicker there. The two wheels with the slightly used tires don't have TPMS sensors fitted so they will have to come off the two front wheels (the curbed one and the scratched one). So all this moving around of wheels and tires will cost $160.00 plus tax plus the rental Jetta. There's gotta be a better way to do this next year!


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## 12dunlin (Jan 21, 2007)

*Re: What to do... (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_moving around of wheels and tires will cost $160.00 plus tax plus the rental Jetta. There's gotta be a better way to do this next year!

I'm sure you're spending a lotta cash unnecessarily there! Isn't it a half hour job down the local tyre(tire)-dealer to swap them around. Over here it'd cost approx GB£10 per tyre-swap and the wheel-swaps are often free of charge if you ask nicely.
And hiring a Jetta in the mean time, you have more money than sense!!


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: What to do... (chrishabberley)*

Actually the Jetta is a nice one. I like it better than the Passat.








The best estimate from a tire shop was $35.00 per wheel and they would not guarantee the TPMS sensors would still work when done! So I took the safe bet route and paid a little more. The VW dealer is paying for the Jetta rental (but in fact I am due to the overall higher price I'm paying them).


_Modified by Paldi at 12:43 PM 4-25-2007_


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Turning Off The TPMS (BustaCuts)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BustaCuts* »_...did anyone successfully figure out how to turn the TPMS completely off...

Chris:
I am going to guess that if you want to completely turn off the TPMS in a Phaeton, all you have to do is the following:
*1)* Unplug the TPMS controller. This is quite easy, the TPMS controller is located directly underneath the relay and fuse panel that is above the left hand battery. It is a small controller, about the size of a 20 pack of cigarettes. It slides right out - just give it a gentle tug.
*2)* Recode the Front Information Display and Control Head (controller 07) to indicate that the car does not have TPMS installed. This can be accomplished with the 'guided functions' mode of a VW 505x diagnostic scan tool. Or, if you want to do it yourself with a VAG-COM, subtract 2 (two) from the digit that is in the third position from the right (the hundreds position) in the coding field of controller 07. For example, if your controller 07 is presently coded 0500315 (typical for a NAR Phaeton), change the code to 0500*1*15.
Please report back to us and let us know if that solves the problem for you. I don't have a Phaeton handy to test this out on, but I do believe it will do the job for you.
Michael


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: What to do... (Paldi)*

I'm back on the road lighter in the wallet by $179.95 after swapping off those 255 40 19 103 load Blizzaks and installing brand new 275 40 19 105 load Pirelli PZeros...
But the good news is I've got 3/10 inch higher road clearance and 3/10 inch less wheel gap, 8/10 inch wider tread giving higher steering effort and curb protection, 3/10 inch higher sidewall (than the Bilzzaks) giving back a smoother ride. I also will enjoy a more accrate speedometer and navigation system... I love these tires! 
And all is right with the world of Phaeton in Malvern.








Photos after I paint the lowers and install the wood wheel! I promise.











_Modified by Paldi at 10:12 PM 4-25-2007_


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## noahas (Dec 7, 2005)

*Interesting article on snow tires*

Let me preface this with the fact that in 20+ years of driving, I have never used snow specific tires, despite living in the snow belt all those years. This coming winter I was planning on giving it a go, so this article was timely for me. I discovered the article from a small mention in the March issue of PC mag. Why? No idea, but the site that it is on might be interesting. Anyway, here is a link to the article which talks about winter tires in comparison to all season as well as snow tires, which were tested at the TireRack facility.
http://www.technoride.com/arti....aspx


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Interesting article on snow tires (noahas)*

Photos re-hosted.


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: Interesting article on snow tires (PanEuropean)*

Hi everyone,
I'm back behind my computer and have some questions concerning winter tyres / rims.
I don't see the point of having expensive rims to put winter tyres on, since they undergo risks of hitting a curb if the roads are slippery. Does anyone know if steel rims are allowed on our Phaetons (and more specifically a V8 ROW ?)
Then, I found no place where some facts were put together for quick reference. The info is scattered in dozens of pages that take hours to browse. I think that I may want to concentrate all info in one page concerning a particular topic, such as tyres and rims, to start with, but for this, I may need some more info that I was not able to find (such as : are steel rims allowed on a Phaeton, and if so, which Phaetons, and which rims).
Another precise question. I saw that some 16' rims were tolerated, but not on W12/V10s (7.5"Jx16", with 235/60R16). Is this combination tolerated on V8s, or is it limited to lighter V6 Phaetons ?
Then, concerning the rim offset, what is the tolerance for Phaetons ?
Any weight number to look for (like 103 for tyres) concerning rims ?
Z.


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Interesting article on snow tires (Zaphh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Zaphh* »_Question: Does anyone know if steel rims are allowed on our Phaetons (and more specifically a V8 ROW ?)
Response: I would think steel wheels would be strong enough if you could find the right size, offset and bolt pattern. In the U.S., 16"are very difficult to find, and I've never been able to find 17"s.
Question: Another precise question. I saw that some 16' rims were tolerated, but not on W12/V10s (7.5"Jx16", with 235/60R16). Is this combination tolerated on V8s, or is it limited to lighter V6 Phaetons?
Response: The only size wheels that I have heard Phaeton users have used for snows have been 17" and 18". You may want to consider relatively inexpensive alloys that are certified for the weight of the Phaeton. I (and at least one other owner) used the 17" Borbet CA wheels which have the correct offset. These are made in Germany and are TUV (I don't know exactly what this German acronym stands for) certified for the Phaeton. In the U.S. they are available from TireRack.com for $123 each, plus shipping. You would have problems finding steel wheels for that price. I was able to fit them with the TPMS (tire pressure monitoring system) sensors.
Steven


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: Interesting article on snow tires (car_guy)*

Thanks for your fast answer, Steven,
Concerning 16" snows, Michael says somewhere that he saw a German new car fitted with 235/60R16 snow tyres... Could you confirm this Michael ?
You are raising another question, Steven: what is a rim certified for the weight of a Phaeton ? Concerning Tyres, the thing is quite documented and clearly written on the tyre (103). But I have never seen any such number for rims. How can one tell what is the maximum weight for a given rim ? Any letter or number to look for ?
Then, there remains an unanswered question (that was asked in some threads, but never clearly answered) Will A8 rims fit a Phaeton ?
Regards,
Z.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Interesting article on snow tires (Zaphh)*

I have seen one European Phaeton fitted with 16 inch snow tires. However, the 16 inch rims were only approved for the two wheel drive (front wheel drive only) Phaetons, which were very rare and were phased out in 2004.


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: Interesting article on snow tires (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael and thanks for your quick reply. I will assume from what you say that 16" rims are not suitable for V8 Phaetons (but how can one know for sure ?).
Michael: would you per chance know who I could call to get some reliable infos on Phaetons in France ? (my German is not that good).
For NAR readers, European cars are quite smaller than US ones, and around here in France, it is very difficult to find tyres/rims in larger dimensions such as 17", 18" and above for regular (i.e. not SUV) cars (much more difficult than in Germany, for instance, as can be seen when looking for tyres on http://www.ebay.fr vs http://www.ebay.de). As an example, I found that it is very difficult to find a shop that will have 235x55x17 winter tyres in their catalog, let alone 255x45x18... and when you do find such tyres, they are of course extremely expensive. A typical summer 255x45x18 tyre for a Phaeton will cost nearly $500 in a local garage in France, supposing they can order it.
Therefore, for winter tyres, the smaller the better, both in terms of price and handling characteristics.
Surprisingly enough, I found that in France, the "Y" speed requirement for summer tyres on the car does not hold for winter tyres, because you are not supposed to drive at high speeds when there is snow. To me, this does not make sense, because I am also going to drive on dry roads with snow tyres on. How would an insurance react if after an accident, they discover that the car is not fitted with adequate speed tyres...
Michael: still on the same information vein: Would you have any official info (coming from VW) concerning the required offset for a Phaeton ? What about rim strength ? What would make a rim suitable for a Phaeton ? I can't believe that a "sturdy" look would be a good enough argument for suitability.
Where do you think this info could be found ?
Cheers,
Z.


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

Pierre,
Have you tried looking for tyres here: http://www.123pneus.com ?
Harry


----------



## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: (Prince Ludwig)*

Has anyone any experience with Hankook IceBear tires?


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: (Prince Ludwig)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Prince Ludwig* »_Pierre,
Have you tried looking for tyres here: http://www.123pneus.com ?
Harry

Wow,
Thanks for the tip. It's the retailer with the best choice of tyres and the best prices I've seen up to now. Thanks Harry !!!
From what I've seen here and there, I'm hesitating betwen the Blizzak and the Nokian WR, and will probably take the Nokian WRs since they are 103V for €130, while the Blizzaks are only 99V and cost €184...
Do you know of any good retailer for rims ?
P.


_Modified by Zaphh at 2:52 AM 8-19-2008_


----------



## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: (Zaphh)*

Ok. I just found http://www.fr.autothek.com/ that sell both tyres and rims (and where the Nokian WRs are even cheaper at €120 !) but I'm puzzled by the choice they offer concerning rims for the Phaeton...
If you click on the left on "Jantes Acier & Aluminium et roues complètes" (i.e. steel and alloy rims and complete wheels), you get to enter the make of the car (Volkswagen), then the type (Phaeton (5/112) ML57) and the site offers a selection of rims that (as far as I understand) should be suitable for a Phaeton.
Now, if you go down the list, they propose 15" rims !!! which is pure nonsense, according to what I have read here.
Looking for Borbet, they suggest the LS or TS models, but not the CA model (that they nevertheless offer if one checks in the list of alloy rims manufacturers for €115 !)
Btw, these Borbet CA rims are given with an ET (offset) of 38mm. Does anyone know if the Borbet CAs come in several offsets or only one, i.e. 38mm ?
P.


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## 30mpg (Mar 30, 2008)

I have read this entire thread, and think I would like to go with the Dunlop Winter Sport M3 Blackwall 235/50R18XL (101V), mounted on Challenge wheels (possibility of ice in the lugbolt holes, I know, but hopefully acceptable for the light snow we typically get).
Questions:
1. I had seen references to 99 as being borderline/questionable weight rating, and 103 as recommended -- but didn't see mention of a 101. Is a 101 within manufacturer specifications?
2. I have 4 summer wheels and will have 4 winter wheels. All will have TPMS. My goal was to minimize expenditure, and keep a winter spare for summer driving and a summer spare for winter driving. However, these measurements would be different than my summer 255/45-18 wheels. Is this OK for "emergency use only"? I don't want to risk screwing up the 4Motion system, but can't justify 5 wheels each summer & winter.
3. Will a 235/50-18 fit in the spare wheel well? I don't know whether the OD ends up being bigger or smaller than the 255/45.
Thank you!!


_Modified by 30mpg at 2:23 PM 9-22-2008_


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## paddyh (Mar 14, 2008)

*Re: (30mpg)*

No opinion on the load rating - but I run 20" rims with 102 rated tires.
On the snow tire diameters, and assuming same wheel width, my quick calc shows the 235/50/18 to be about .21 inches more in diameter than the stock tires (27.25 vs 27.04).
Patrick


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## 30mpg (Mar 30, 2008)

*shameless bump*

Sorry for the shameless bump, but I'm hoping someone can advise if
1) 101 is an OK load rating for a V8
2) Is the slightly larger (235/50/18) OD tire OK for use as a spare?
3) Will the slightly larger (235/50/18) winter tire fit in the spare wheel well?
Thank you!!


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: shameless bump (30mpg)*

Hello Everyone:
Well, winter will soon be upon us (or, at least, some of us), and today I removed the four summer tires and wheels from my Phaeton and installed my four winter tires and wheels.
Those of us who have gone through a winter with a Phaeton have discovered the following:
*1)* The car really doesn't need snow tires to *GO*, presuming you have the OEM all season tires installed.
*2)* Installing dedicated winter tires makes a huge difference to how well the car *STOPS*, and how well it handles corners on ice and snow.
Even though I live in the mildest climatic zone in Canada (the southern end of Vancouver Island, where our towns don't even own snow clearing equipment), I'm a big fan of winter tires. My take on them is that the are absolutely free, they cost nothing at all. My logic works like this: If I plan to keep a car beyond the average lifespan of a single set of tires (say, about 40K miles), then I might as well buy a set of winter tires when the car is new, and use them for half the year. Other than the cost of the four additional rims (and TPMS sensors), it won't cost me any more in the long run than replacing the OEM tires at the halfway point.
I use Brigestone Blizzak LM-22s on my W12 Phaeton. They are the correct size and correct load rating. They are noisier than my dedicated summer tires (Yokohama Advan Sports), but I suppose that is to be expected from a winter tire.
There is a whole lot of information contained in this six-page discussion of winter tires. It will take you about 10 to 15 minutes to review it, however, if you do take the time to review it, I think you will find the answers to just about every question you might have about winter tires on a Phaeton.
Michael


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: shameless bump (30mpg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *30mpg* »_Sorry for the shameless bump, but I'm hoping someone can advise if
1) 101 is an OK load rating for a V8
2) Is the slightly larger (235/50/18) OD tire OK for use as a spare?
3) Will the slightly larger (235/50/18) winter tire fit in the spare wheel well?
Thank you!!

See page three of this discussion for the answers to your questions.
Michael


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## ron kramer (Apr 16, 2007)

I'm thinking either Blizzaks or I can get a deal on Toyo's, please advise?
Also my dealer is quite willing to put the tires and sensors on my rims and change over forever at no addition charge. What is the down side on that?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (ron kramer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ron kramer* »_What is the down side on that?

There's really no 'downside' - it's more like a trade-off.
If you buy four dedicated wheels for the snow tires, then it's faster and easier to change them twice a year, you don't have to balance them each time you change them, and you are less likely to encounter the occasional nuisance leak on a newly mounted tire.
If you just use one set of wheels for both tires, the amount of labour is higher (dismount / mount tires each change), you have to balance them every time, but you don't have the expense of acquiring the four new rims and associated pressure sensors. 
It's a personal preference issue, and of course, it is influenced by how much you have to pay for the additional set of wheels.
Michael


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## ron kramer (Apr 16, 2007)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
There's really no 'downside' - it's more like a trade-off.
If you buy four dedicated wheels for the snow tires, then it's faster and easier to change them twice a year, you don't have to balance them each time you change them, and you are less likely to encounter the occasional nuisance leak on a newly mounted tire.
If you just use one set of wheels for both tires, the amount of labour is higher (dismount / mount tires each change), you have to balance them every time, but you don't have the expense of acquiring the four new rims and associated pressure sensors. 
It's a personal preference issue, and of course, it is influenced by how much you have to pay for the additional set of wheels.
Michael

Thanks, the tire dealer is both a friend and very service oriented so he offers that as a on-going service.


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## jdbrown (Oct 30, 2008)

*Re: (ron kramer)*

Looking for Winter tire/Wheel package for my V8; here's what tire rack is offering:
http://www.tirerack.com/snow/W...Clar=
Additional $408 for TPMS plus shipping; less than $1850
Has anyone had any experience with these tires?
How do you think the wheels look on the car?
Thanks
jeff


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## jdbrown (Oct 30, 2008)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (bobschneider)*

Anyone have experience with Nokian Hakkapeliitta 5 or R?
Josh Spangler 
Tires By Web 
Professional Sales Consultant 
http://www.tiresbyweb.com/ 
(800) 576-1009 ext 775
Very helpful...no shipping, no taxes...even fill with nitrogen!


----------



## ron kramer (Apr 16, 2007)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (jdbrown)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jdbrown* »_Anyone have experience with Nokian Hakkapeliitta 5 or R?
Josh Spangler 
Tires By Web 
Professional Sales Consultant 
http://www.tiresbyweb.com/ 
(800) 576-1009 ext 775
Very helpful...no shipping, no taxes...even fill with nitrogen!

I'd like to know what the difference also.
tires by web were very helpful to me as well.


----------



## Jim_CT (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: (jdbrown)*

Jeff,
Could you please repost the link? 
Thanks - Jim


----------



## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (jdbrown)*

Hi again Jeff,
Concerning Hakkapeliitta, I recently bought a set of winter tyres and looked around for a while to find what would suit me best.
I found out that Hakkapeliita are wonderful tires for very adverse snow/ice conditions but that would wear out quite very quickly on dry roads due to their very soft rubber + don't allow to go that fast. They are super winter tires if you live in the mountains or such.
Personally, my car only runs on well taken care of motorways, so if I ever encounter snowy conditions, it will be for 1 or 2 days in the winter...
Anyway, I ended up with buying Nokian WR2, that are all-season tires that apparently also meet full winter tires requirements, i.e. for me the best of both worlds, since from what I have read, they can cope with dry roads, which is what I drive on 99% of the time.
I mounted them last week, and did my first 400km trip with them on Wednesday.
I have the feeling that they are more comfortable than the Dunlop SP9000 that came with my car, and certainly not more noisy, which is what I was most afraid of.
However, note that my summer Dunlop tyres are 18/255/40, while for the snow wheels, I chose to wear 17/235/55, so there is more rubber/air around the rims, which probably accounts for the more comfy feeling.
Drove them up to 220km/h (I know that their limit is 240) so I'll try to max out at 230 (although at these speeds, I had rather look quite far away in front of me, rather than watching the speedo...)
P.


----------



## petermueller (Oct 20, 2006)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (Zaphh)*

I have both the Nokian and Blizzak tires. For what it's worth the ride seems better with the Nokians. Both work great in winter conditions. One observation with both of these is that you'll be able to stop much faster than the car behind you that's running all season tires, so watch your back! 


_Modified by petermueller at 5:16 AM 11-8-2008_


----------



## Samhain35 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (jdbrown)*

Also interested in the Tire Rack set. If anyone orders please let us know how they are.
Hey JD - I have a cabin down the road from you in Valders.....


_Modified by Samhain35 at 4:18 AM 11-9-2008_


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## jdbrown (Oct 30, 2008)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (bobschneider)*

Just ordered winter set of tires/wheels; Total package cost $2227.72
http://www.tiresbyweb.com/p-73....aspx
Talk to Josh Spangler; great customer service.
Borbet TS wheels; TPMS, lugs, valve stems, centering ringnitrogen, mounted, balanced, shipping, tax...delivered to VW for installation.
I'll let you know how they do. I'll send a photo if I can get my laptop to cooperate.
Jeff


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## zuegman (Dec 22, 2006)

I just got the Tire Rack Borbet 17's with the Michelin Xice I2's installed today. Not as hot looking as the 19" Omanyt's and no snow yet but I think the performance will be great. $1440 all-in.


----------



## jdbrown (Oct 30, 2008)

*Re: (Jim_CT)*

Jim,
good to hear from you..here's the link
http://www.tiresbyweb.com/p-73....aspx


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## jdbrown (Oct 30, 2008)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (ron kramer)*

Ron, 
Josh told me the main difference between Nokian R & 5 is that the 5 is a studable tire...a breeder in horse terms...







dry joke.
He also said that the 5 has a bit high speed rating, but the R is an Ultra Low Rolling Resistent tire...bottom line..their made in Finland...How can you go wrong? Cost a bit more than the Blizzacks or Michilines...hopefully get two winters on them.
Jeff


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## ron kramer (Apr 16, 2007)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (jdbrown)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jdbrown* »_Ron, 
Josh told me the main difference between Nokian R & 5 is that the 5 is a studable tire...a breeder in horse terms...







dry joke.
He also said that the 5 has a bit high speed rating, but the R is an Ultra Low Rolling Resistent tire...bottom line..their made in Finland...How can you go wrong? Cost a bit more than the Blizzacks or Michilines...*hopefully get two winters on them.*
Jeff

I'd expect to get more then two seasons at 3000 miles per season.


_Modified by ron kramer at 1:03 AM 11-14-2008_


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## Samhain35 (Oct 15, 2008)

*Re: (zuegman)*

Hey Zuegman - how you liking your setup?


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## zuegman (Dec 22, 2006)

Samhain - So far, so good. 
No bad weather yet, but I will say the appearance of the Michelin / Borbet winter kit from Tire Rack is just fine. It takes some getting used to the 17's vs. the 19 Omanyt's, but I am really looking forward to the performance. The Yoko Advan S4's got fair reviews as an all weather option, but frankly I thought they were weak in snow.
I will post as soon as we get some good northern plains weather...


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## jdbrown (Oct 30, 2008)

*VW recommended Winter Tire (17") pressures*

Partial Load: Front; 40.6 Rear; 37.7
Full Load: Front; 43.5 Rear; 49
Source: Eva, Phaeton Customer Service


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## zuegman (Dec 22, 2006)

*Re: (zuegman)*

OK - Lousy road conditions have OFFICIALLY hit in the upper midwest (South Dakota). The Borbet / michelin X-ice setup from Tire Rack is probably the smartest move I have made in a long, long time as it relates to anything automotive. I have always contended that the Audi Allroad is the best bad road vehicle I have driven, but the Phaeton with the 'broomball shoes' gets close (plus you get all the other Phaeton exclusives!). Braking, cornering and stopping do not even resemble what they were with my Yoko Advans.
If you live in bad weather and are considering the 2nd set of tires....DO IT.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (zuegman)*

I have Yokohama Advans for the summer, and Bridgestone Blizzaks for the winter - I am very happy with this combination.
The Advans are perfect in every respect. The Blizzaks are a bit noisy, but I suppose that is to be expected for a snow tire. They have awesome traction on icy, wet, or snow-covered surfaces.
Michael


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

As far as noise is concerned, I find that my 17' Nokian WR2 are quieter than the (new) 18' Dunlop that came with the car, even at very high speeds (up to 150mph). Btw, the fact that they are limited to 150 mph is a problem, since I need to keep an eye on the speedometer to keep the car under this speed, while at the same time looking very far ahead. I am 42, and I can tell you that at this speed, accomodation time (in the night) between infinity and 2 feet and back takes a looong time.
I now understand why it is extremely desirable to have a head up display (like in the Citroen C6 that I was also considering before I bought the Phaeton) in a fast car.
I can see big snow flakes coming down as I write this message, but "unfortunately", we drove back here last night with perfectly dry roads, and the car will stay parked until next Friday, so up to now, I have not been able to test them in the snow.
P.


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

Pierre, don't forget that the maximum speed rating of a tyre is not the speed it can be drivan at all day, but the maximum speed it has been designed to tolerate for 10 minutes without damaging itself.
As for the Nokian WRG2s, completely agree with you about the low noise - I've had some on for the last month in anticipation of driving to the Alps and they've been absolutely fine (if a little firm riding)
Harry


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: (Prince Ludwig)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Prince Ludwig* »_Pierre, don't forget that the maximum speed rating of a tyre is not the speed it can be drivan at all day, but the maximum speed it has been designed to tolerate for 10 minutes without damaging itself.


Oh. That's interesting. Where did you get this piece of information from ?
Yesterday evening, I drove more or less constantly at a speed greater than 125mph for nearly 30mn, with top speeds between 145 and 150 mph, whenever possible (after a while, you get used to driving at these speeds).
How can you tell at which speed these tyres are rated for driving for an extended period of time ?
I guess I can drive at 60mph for 1 hour (I've already done this several times without apparent damage to the tyres). What about 80 ? 100 ? 120 ? 140 ?
Anyone here working in the tyre industry ?
What is the point of saying that the tyre can be driven at 150 mph for a split second ?
I am shocked by what you say, since it is the safety of my family we are discussing right now. I feel comfortable riding at these speeds on German motorways (that are quite straight and well maintainted) with this car, but I cannot afford bursting a tyre at these speeds.
I have had discussions with friends who told me that these were excessive speeds for any car. Well, I reply that no-one is shocked anymore at driving a modern car at a constant speed of 70mph, even thought this may have been considered as reckless in the 1920s, even in a Bugatti. Since then, roads have improved, cars have improved, with (I feel) a definite leap in quality in the 1970/80s.
Now, I have the feeling that the Phaeton is yet in another league that make it possible for a family to ride comfortably at constant speeds in excess of 120mph with reasonable risk, provided the road is not too windy and well taken care of, which is the case of German motorways (this is much more difficult in France, where the maximum legal speed of 80mph is taken into account in tracing the motorway, meaning that if you drive at 100mph, you could well be faced with bends that are too sharp to take comfortably, regardless of surface quality, that I feel is often better in France than in Germany).
Anyway, all components of a car must be safe enough to be able to drive safely at speeds of 120mph and above. I'm ready to put the necessary amount of money into tyres that are compatible with my style of driving. But how can I know that tyres that are rated for 140mph cannot in practice be used at this speed ?

_Quote »_
As for the Nokian WRG2s, completely agree with you about the low noise - I've had some on for the last month in anticipation of driving to the Alps and they've been absolutely fine (if a little firm riding)


I found them softer than my previous 18" Dunlops.
P.


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

Given that most government regulations mandate that cars should be fitted with tyres which match or exceed their top speeds, I think the reasoning is that the car is unlikely to be driving at its actual top speed for extended periods of time. 
In the case of the V8 Phaeton, the limited top speed is nominally 250kph so under German and UK law (not sure about France), you shouldn't fit V-rated tyres (240kmph) but the next rating is W (270kph) which should give you a comfortable safety margin.

_Quote »_I have had discussions with friends who told me that these were excessive speeds for any car.

Such speeds certainly aren't mechanically excessive for the Phaeton - it's just what happens when when some twerp in their Twingo doesn't look in the mirror and decides to pull into the fast lane without indicating.
Harry


_Modified by Prince Ludwig at 11:13 AM 1-5-2009_


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: (Prince Ludwig)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Prince Ludwig* »_Given that most government regulations mandate that cars should be fitted with tyres which match or exceed their top speeds, I think the reasoning is that the car is unlikely to be driving at its actual top speed for extended periods of time. 
In the case of the V8 Phaeton, the limited top speed is nominally 250kph so under German and UK law (not sure about France), you shouldn't fit V-rated tyres (240kmph) but the next rating is W (270kph) which should give you a comfortable safety margin.


I use Y rated tyres as summer tyres, but couldn't find any faster snowtyres than V rated ones...
So I bought these tyres knowing that they were limited to 240km/h, but thought I could use them up to this speed.
Once more, what makes you think that the rating is for 10 mn max ? Do you have some references ?

_Quote »_
Such speeds certainly aren't mechanically excessive for the Phaeton - it's just what happens when when some twerp in their Twingo doesn't look in the mirror and decides to pull into the fast lane without indicating.


I try to not overtake with more than 30-40 km/h differential speed, and therefore slow down whenever I approach slower cars. Then, if cars are packed, I generally lift my foot from the throttle and gently pass them over, and accelerate again. But if the motorway is empty and the road is dry, the risk I take is (beyond mechanical failure of the car/tyres) crossing the path of a stray deer crossing the motorway... and we have seen on this forum that it can happen...
So the real question is: under which speed can one bump into a deer on a motorway to still be able to walk out of the car...
I remember a guy bumping into a ... Kangaroo on a French motorway at 130km/h. The animal escaped from some kind of circus. The car was smashed (but it was not a Phaeton either).
P.
Ps: the V8 is electronically limited to 250km/h, but seeing how easily I get there, I really think it could go faster without the limiter.


_Modified by Zaphh at 9:23 PM 1-5-2009_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Prince Ludwig)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Prince Ludwig* »_...it's just what happens when when some twerp in their Twingo doesn't look in the mirror and decides to pull into the fast lane without indicating.

I think there is a post around here somewhere that explains how to buff a Twingo out of the front bumper of a Phaeton.







It's not difficult to do, it only becomes troublesome if the Twingo gets caught up in the front wheel well.
Michael


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

Surely you'd just need a good bug and tar remover?








My favourite set of photos was of the Hyundai that rear ended a Phaeton and the relative damage...
Harry


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## MAD Golf (Jan 6, 2000)

*Re: (Prince Ludwig)*

Got the Blizzak LM-22. Work great!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Prince Ludwig)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Prince Ludwig* »_Surely you'd just need a good bug and tar remover?









Yeah, that's pretty much all that is required. In this accident (photo below), the front licence plate was knocked off the Phaeton. The two bolts that hold the plate on required replacement.
Michael


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: (Prince Ludwig)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Prince Ludwig* »_My favourite set of photos was of the Hyundai that rear ended a Phaeton and the relative damage...
Harry

Ah yes...that would be me.








Me:
















Them:
















Pretty substantial car, the Phaeton, if I don't say so myself!


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: (chrisj428)*

Ouch ! Could you reuse your exhaust chrome rim ?








I love the license plate.
P.


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## jbcuky (Jan 15, 2009)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels?*

Hi everyone. First time posting. I'm glad I found this site as it definitely influenced my purchase. Michael, thanks for all the helpful information.
I had an unfortunate incident with the OEM tires in the snow that has convinced me to get some winter tires. I'm a bit late to the game so inventory is low. Also, I have the 255/45/18 option on my V8.
So, I think I'm down to looking at two tires:
1) 235/50/18 101V XL Pirelli Winter 240 Sottozero or
2) 255/45/18 103V XL Blizzak LM-22
Not too worried about the 101 rating on the Pirelli after reading here. I believe people are generally pleased with the Blizzaks but slightly more expensive. Does anyone have experience with the Pirellis? The 235/50/18 is the size Volkswagen recommended to me on the phone today (also I've read narrower tires perform better in the snow).
Does anyone have any concerns of using the OEM as the spare?
Is it really worth about $900 to get a different set of wheels and TPMSensors?
Thanks


_Modified by jbcuky at 9:36 PM 1-14-2009_


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (jbcuky)*

Joseph,
I recently mounted a set of LM22s in a 235/50/18 103V XL rating on my car. I prefer to go with a "minus one" application where snow tires are concerned, changing the treadwidth to sidewall ratio, but keeping the overall diameter the same.
The reasoning behind this is two-fold: (1) The narrower tread width contributes to the tire biting into the snow instead of floating on top of it, and (2) The higher sidewall provides more cushion between the wheel and whatever pothole it will inevitably crash into, reducing the chances of tire and/or wheel damage.


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## JulianBenjamin (Jun 22, 2007)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (chrisj428)*

Update on my Cooper Xeons A/S. Not a snow tire, just an all-season tire. 
I've had a couple of opportunities to use this in the recent snowfalls we've had here, and they are great. Better than the stock Michelins (which may not be saying much). But this morning it was snowing, and while other cars were having trouble starting up from a stop and swerving about, mine didn't. Braking distances were good too, and lane changes weren't accompanied by the slight out-of-control feeling you get when crossing over the snow between lanes.
So this tire is a http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif from me for an All-Season alternative.


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## jbcuky (Jan 15, 2009)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (chrisj428)*

The problem I've had is finding a Blizzak in that size. Any links?


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (jbcuky)*

It's difficult as it's the end of the snow tire sales season (believe it or not). however, I found three. While I'm not endorsing one over the other, Yokohama snow tires have been very good to me in the past. I'd probably go Yokohama first, Pirelli second and Hankook third, although I've been very happy with the Hankook summer tires I bought for the Phaeton.
Pirelli Winter 240 Sottozero (Comes with free _Iron Man_ DVD)
Hankook Icebear W300
Yokohama W.drive (This one's in Columbus)


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (jbcuky)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jbcuky* »_The problem I've had is finding a Blizzak in that size. Any links?

I don't know if Bridgestone still makes these or not (the should - the size is common and is used by other large vehicles), but here is the OEM snow tire that is fitted at the factory in Dresden. This is also the snow tire that I have on my W12, and I am very happy with them.
*Bridgestone Blizzak LM-22*


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (PanEuropean)*

Personally, I'm entirely satisfied with my Nokian WR G2 that I elected to place on first position when I looked at what was available back in October. They are quieter than my summer Dunlop while having a high speed index and a 103 load (which, if I remember well, the Blizzak don't have).
P.


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

Pierre,
Have you had a chance to test the WRG2s in snow and slush yet? 
Harry


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: (Prince Ludwig)*

Hi,
Last week, they did really well in snow and slush. My wife and I were really impressed as I tried to skid the car on a non-salted snowy empty parking lot but... couldn't !
Had no occasion to try them on pure ice though.
P.


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (Zaphh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Zaphh* »_Personally, I'm entirely satisfied with my Nokian WR G2 that I elected to place on first position when I looked at what was available back in October. They are quieter than my summer Dunlop while having a high speed index and a 103 load (which, if I remember well, the Blizzak don't have).

Look at the picture above your post. 103 load rating and remarkably, V speed rated (149 MPH).


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (car_guy)*

Anyone know if these will fit on a Phaeton?
4 Bridgestone Blizzak LM-22 255/45/R18 winter tires with original rims from a 2005 Audi A8 including TPMS sensors! 
Tires are in great used condition with @ 95% tread remaining (basically had them on the car last winter for only four months). 
Rims have slight curb rashes (from previous owner) which I cleaned up and painted over. Rims are not damaged and run straight! 
Recently had to sell the Audi and winter tires are left over. Also have posted rubber floor mats and a navigation DVD for the Audi A8. 




_Modified by Auzivision at 2:57 PM 12-9-2009_


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (Auzivision)*

Looks like they will (looks like a great deal too).
P.


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (Zaphh)*

I think these would be a steel w/o the wheels for anyone out east:
I have 4 Blizzak LM-22 255/45R18 snow tires (nitrogen filled) mounted on 18" American Racing rims (Casino - Diamond Cut 18x8 - 5x115 bolt pattern, offset - 40, backside - 6) that have only gone through two winter seasons. 
I'm asking for $300 OR BEST OFFER. These tires are incredible in the snow and have alot of tread left on them. I'm also willing to sell the tires only! 

Location: Bellingham MA 
http://worcester.craigslist.or....html



_Modified by Auzivision at 2:58 PM 12-9-2009_


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (Auzivision)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Auzivision* »_Anyone know if these will fit on a Phaeton?
http://columbus.craigslist.org/pts/1486469917.html

Kurt, 
These look to be the same setup I had. From personal experience, I would call it a "go".


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (chrisj428)*

Thanks Chris, 
I was hoping you would chime in. I thought they would fit, but wasn't 100% sure. 
I know you sold yours a while back. In comparison, do you think this is a good deal?
It's about six hours there and back, but I may be able to turn it into a business trip.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (Auzivision)*

Kurt,
I'd have to say it looks like a good deal to me. The tires alone are about $800, figure another $600 or so for sensors and $400 or so each on the wheels.
Was gonna ask if you'd swing by Ashtabula to pick up a set of wheels for me, but that's waaaaay out of the way.







Looks like I'll combine that with a trip to see the grandmother.


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (chrisj428)*

Ashtabula... that's almost to Buffalo! Actually, I have a coworker that lives there and stop in town once on a trip from Buffalo to Cleveland. I’ll let you borrow my truck to pick up both sets if you like.
I wasn't even thinking about the sensors being compatible. I just presumed they weren't. If that's the case then this is a really good deal if the tires really are in the condition described. 
I was waiver because I don't really need another set of wheels (or should I say rims). I would think that 13 would be enough already. I suppose I could try to off load one of my other sets or swap the tires and sensor and sell the rims.


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (Auzivision)*

Kurt,
At that price, you could swap the tires/sensors off the wheels and probably recoup at least 50% of your investment by selling the wheels on their own.


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## ruddyone (Feb 9, 2009)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (Auzivision)*

Kurt -
I sent you a PM.
Nate


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (ruddyone)*

I couldn't get the PM thing to work. I think it has to do with my popup blocker on this laptop. I saw you message, but couldn't reply.
The answer is yes, I've committed to buying these wheels and am just working out the details on pickup/delivery with the seller. They aren't insterested in shipping, so I'm going to make a road trip out of it.
Hope to see you guys again this summer up in Chicago.


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (Auzivision)*

The big bug now has some snow shoes. $700 and 6 hours of driving later, they are ready for action. 
They checked out to be really good with between 8 and 9 32nds of tread left. The added bonus is the TPMS sensors work! I must say, they are noticeably noisier. Following are a few pics:
Nice tread








Off with the old








On with the new (for me)








Now I have to find VW center caps the fit. I have several sets, but they we all too big. I love to hear suggestions (hint, hint... Chris) 
Looking forward to the next snow fall.











_Modified by Auzivision at 11:09 PM 12-18-2009_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (Auzivision)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Auzivision* »_ ...I must say, they are noticeably noisier.

I think that is par for the course with snow tires. I notice a slight noise increase on the Phaeton when I put the snow tires on - by comparison, I notice a helluva noise increase on my wife's Golf when I put the snow tires on.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Snow tires and wheels? (PanEuropean)*

*Archival Note:* Related post - Winter in the UK - tyres? (content addresses tires that are available for purchase in the United Kingdom, but still, it might be useful information).


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## racefaith (Mar 18, 2009)

*Snow tire recommendation*

Hello all. Time to swap the 19's for the 17's as the cold weather settles in.

Id like some recommendations on on both Size and Brand/Model for snow tires to fit the stock 17" Inspiration wheels.

Thanks in advance. Chris


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Blizzaks*

I found a nice set of new 255 19 snows on ebay a couple of years ago. I skipped putting them on last winter and regretted it! This winter the Michelin 18's on Challenge wheels are coming off and the 19" Blizzaks on Bentley wheels will go back on.


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## perfrej (Dec 24, 2009)

*Nokian...*

I have Nokian Hakkapelitta friction. They are totally fantastic. I drove 185 km/h in a blizzard today with an inch or two of snow on the freeway. No problemos!


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

Snow and sleet in the forecast for today so it’s definitely that time of year again.


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## conmoto (Jul 8, 2009)

*TPMS Disable Attempt*

I finally gave VAG-COM a try and I have to say it's pretty darn easy! Well, it's sort of easy. 

Faulty brake pad sensor - silenced
Seat belt chime - silenced
Air Bag fault - cleared
Ride Height - lowered to Euro spec...maybe. As suggested, I'll give it a day and try again. 

TPMS 

I removed the TPMS controller (just above left battery) and altered the third digit of the five number code to 1 and then 0. The icon still remains in the display. I even tried removing the 5 amp fuse for the TPMS. 

Anybody have luck with this process?

I'm in SE Minnesota. If there are any curious owners thinking about simple VAG-COM modifications, as listed above, I'd be happy to help.


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

anybody already found a solution for disable TPMS totally??

jorg


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

The Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category) is your friend.

The process for totally disabling TPMS is described in this post: How to Disable the Tire Pressure Monitoring System (A last resort - not really encouraged), which is listed in the Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category).

Do be sure to read the ENTIRE post, because there is some important information towards the end that you need to know, in addition to the basic 'how-to' that is contained at the beginning of the post.

Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Photos re-hosted.

Michael


----------

