# How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6.



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

The purpose of this thread is to give my take on the best way to put together a simple, reliable, relatively powerful Naturally Aspirated Vr6 car. I’m trying to make my explanations as simple as possible, so if anything is confusing, shoot me a message, and I’ll try to revise the thread as best as possible. The same goes for inaccuracies. I’m always learning, and I’m willing to bet there’s more than a few assumptions in here that are inaccurate, so shoot me a message.
I've got a goal to grow the VW performance aftermarket. There’s so much potential in many of these motors to go fast, cheaply. So, the the best way I can think to do it is by getting info out there.
Through the engine, this will more or less follow the path of air.
*1. Air Intake(Stock-cai)*
A Vr6 car is equipped with a stock airbox from the factory. It is popular to replace the stock paper filter with a K&N. This is nice as it can be washed and reused. However, it has been tested that a fresh paper filter actually flows better than a K&N. There are minimal gains to be had by cutting the lower portion of the box and grinding the webbing from the upper portion.
Cold air intakes need to be the type that goes down into the fender/bumper to be advantageous. Many have discomfort with the filter being so close to the ground for fear of sucking up water and hydrolocking. These intakes will make more power than a cut airbox, but I do not feel that they are a cost effective way to gain power until further modifications make the airbox increasingly inefficient.
Because of the nature of the stock Bosch Mass airflow sensor(MAF), simply putting a filter or a ‘short ram’ intake onto the end of the MAF is not effective. This sensor requires a flow of air devoid of turbulence, which is taken care of with a ‘turn2‘ style cai. I lost a significant amount of power on a dyno going to a filter on the MAF.


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*1.8t IAT(Intake air temperature) sensor*-This has been proven to give 2whp on the dyno by Paul, need_a_vr6. The stock Iat sensor is closed element, and prone to heatsoaking in the vr manifold. The 1.8t sensor plugs directly in, and when wires are extended to a location that gets proper airflow, away from hot engine parts, proper Iat's are achieved. The ecu interprets this data, and gives a tick more ignition timing.
1.8t sensor:

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*2. Upper intake elbow*
This is not an overly problematic component. I have made 204whp with a stock upper intake elbow. The oem PCV valve is a problem. A PCV valve’s function is to vent positive crankcase pressure back into the intake, while restricting oil from passing through. This valve seeps a large amount of oil, and makes the vr6 motor a very dirty running motor. For this reason, it is important to routinely remove the elbow to clean it and the throttle body. Some choose to run a ’catch can’, which allows for crankcase ventilation, and catches excess oil from being cycled into the intake.
The only aftermarket replacement is the ABD big bore intake. These sell for entirely too much in the classifieds, but they do eliminate the banjo section. Gains are minimal. I would not recommend doing this as a preliminary modification, and it's a stretch to be worth it in any situation.
*3. Throttle Body*

The oem throttle body is not overly problematic. The obd2 throttle body(96-99) is slightly larger than the obd1 throttle body. They cannot be simply swapped as the bolts are different sizes, and the TPS(throttle position sensor) is wired differently. I have read that the wires can simply be swapped around for the obd2 tps/tbody to be used on an obd1 car. Porting should be kept to a minimum, especially on obd2. A gutted, or ‘deramped’ throttle body oftentimes causes idling issues on stock engine management. 


need_a_VR6 said:


> I ran the OBD2 TB on my car (on 95 OBD1 and standalone). I was using an OBD2 Schrick VGI at the time, which still has the port for the idle valve, so that wasn't effected at all. You need to use the full range tps on the OBD2 TB:
> 
> 1 IAC +12v - not used
> 2 IAC ground (to ecu) - not used
> ...


 
*4. Intake Manifold*
This is in my opinion, one of the most problematic parts of the VR6 engine. The stock intake manifold has an upper and lower portion. The throttle body inlet is about as restrictive as restrictive gets. It transitions from the circular throttle body to the flat plenum area with a steep ramp, and multiple internal parts sticking out directly into airflow. The plenum, or the open area before the runners is not a major problem in stock form, but the transitions into the runners are very restrictive. The plug wire holes are directly in the airflow, the dividers between runners are thick, and rigid in construction, and there are multiple internal bolt holes directly in the airflow.
Modified/aftermarket options
*Ported lower intake* This largely contributes to having a complete, matched intake and head. It doesn't really need a whole lot of opening/reshaping, but it can be smoothed, and mated appropriately with the upper intake and the head.
*The 2.9 Manifold*- In Europe, some vr6’s were 2.9l instead of the usual 2.8l. These had a different upper intake manifold in which the entire space under the manifold is used as a plenum, allowing for more airflow, and slightly more power band. Many choose to cut the middle channel from a stock 2.8 manifold in an effort to clone the euro 2.9. The important thing to remember here is that all 2.9 clones are not created equal. There is much work to be done in smoothing the dividers and transitions into the different runners. The throttle body inlet should be modified. Again, this is not something that should be a preliminary modification as there are parts further down the line that need addressing first.
These are of my ported 2.9 clone. The corner that restricts cylinders 5 and 6 is toward the left in the first picture.`

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Precautionary: In the stock lower intake manifold, there are ciruclar dowels that are designed to help the upper and lower manifolds seat together. Remove these and throw them out. Sometimes, they come out unexpectedly and go down an intake runner, causing valvetrain damage. Ask me how i know.








This dowel is in the lower right of this picture:

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*Short runner intakes*- In general, shorter runners and a bigger plenum promote a higher power band and less torque. That is, the majority of the car’s power will be shifted to a higher rpm given other components promote this. The basic short runner, ‘log manifold’ has been used to some success on n/a drag cars, but this is in limited numbers and accompanied with supporting mods such as large camshafts, and large diameter exhaust. The gains are difficult to quantify as this has only been used as ‘part of a setup’, and not simply an addition to stock. 

There have been a few equal runner length short runners built custom. These are ideal as the runners in the intake compensate for the varying lengths in the cylinder head. With just an intake swap from a 2.9 clone to this type of staggered sri, i gained 30whp at 7k rpm, however, i lost 15ft/lbs of torque and a significant amount of hp through my midrange. Think of a more honda like powerband than a vr6 powerband. These gains occurred with no tune change, or cam change. 
*5. Cylinder Head*
This is the root of the problems in this motor. This is a 15degree 6cylinder engine with staggered cylinders and one cylinder head. 
*The vr6 has a FLAT cylinder head*. The majority of cylinder heads in the world have recesses in the block side called ‘combustion chambers’. This motor, with the head being flat, has the combustion chamber in the piston itself. On cylinder heads with combustion chambers, it is possible to ‘deck’ the head, removing material from the bottom of the head, making the combustion chamber smaller, and raising the engine’s compression. Raising compression adds power, but is not possible in this way, on this motor.
Head with combustion chamber:

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Flat Head:

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The engine functions as a 'bent' straight 6 in that There is one intake side, and one exhaust side to the motor. The camshafts are not in control of independent banks(intake/exhaust). Each cam takes care of intake AND exhaust, so the runners for intake and exhaust sides vary in length to reach their respective cylinders. On each side there are short runners and long runners, each carrying their own problems in terms of port shape. The varying length also makes the harmonic balance of airflow in this motor very difficult to master. In an ideal world, all intake runners should be the same exact length and volume, head through intake manifold. The same goes for exhaust ports through exhaust manifolds. The world isn’t perfect, we’ll work with what we’ve got unless you’re looking to build varied length runner manifolds, which have been done to great effect. However, for the purposes of this thread, that won’t be covered. 
*Porting-* This section is really general, and possibly pointless. Some say that headflow can only be measured on a machine called a flowbench. Others say that headflow can only be tested at the track. So, i'll just give you some ways to look at it. 
The best way to learn is to grab a spare head, and get at it. There is MUCH that can be done to shape these ports better. Again, I’m no pro when it comes to porting, but I can give a couple areas of interest. 
For materials, I use mainly sanding rolls on aluminum and a straight die grinder. These can be found on Eastwood. The valves must be out of the head.
Intake ports should be a bit larger than exhaust ports, but not too large. Size can help flow, but maintaining a small enough volume to maintain air velocity is just as important. One way of thinking about a port is as a siphoning hose…in order to maintain constant, fast flow, it cannot have too much volume, nor can the volume change throughout. “Bowl” areas should be focused upon. This is the transition down to the valve seat, and where most losses on stock heads occur. Long VR6 ports are misaligned with the center of the valve seat. Short ports have waves in the walls that can be smoothed.
DON’T SIMPLY ‘GASKET MATCH’. This is changing one area of the port’s volume, and hurts flow. It is important that a port’s entrance not be smaller than the outlet that precedes it, but that does not mean that it is effective to ‘hog it out’. I put a considerable amount of work into the head on my race motor, and I’m nowhere near gasket size in most cases.
Mildly Ported short intake runner:

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Valvejob-This is how the valve seat is shaped. The smoother, or more cuts that are taken(3 angle, 5 angle, etc) the less restrictive it is on airflow. This is widely considered to be the most important aspect of performance headwork. Being a delicate, skillful process, this is something I trust a machinist to handle for me. I have made as high as 210whp on stock valves with a quality valve job.

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*6. Valvetrain*
There isn’t a whole lot wrong with the stock valve train(valves, valve springs, retainers, keepers, lifters). The main precaution to take is to upgrade to a set of *performance valve springs*, serving two purposes. 
A. To prevent the spring from binding because of aftermarket camshaft lift.
B To keep the valve from ‘floating’, or hanging open too long, and being struck by a piston.
For Motors with aftermarket cams(except for low lift cams such as autotech 262’s) or forced induction, this should be looked at as a mandatory item.
Except in extreme builds, I don’t see a reason to upgrade any other component. Having a machine shop back cut stock valves offers some power, and what I consider a ’might as well’ if you have the head there. 

It is debatable in my opinion whether bigger valves actually make more power. BVH are not worth all the hype and cost associated, especially dealing with a stock sized bore. There is a concept of headflow called "shrouding" that basically says when a valve is too close to the edge of the combustion chamber(pistons in our case), or cylinder wall, flow is restricted. The fastest 12v vr6's have stock size valves. I also believe that this is made more dramatic as a result of our head being flat. Google "valve shrouding" for more info. FWIW, dynos of some of the old school uber desirable bvh's have shown little to no gains over stock heads. 

Titanium retainers are available to be used to lighten stock valve train, but I don’t feel that these are a good place to spend money unless again, you’ve got a highly built race motor, and looking to find that extra little bit of insurance against floating a valve(valve hangs open and gets struck by a piston) at 7500k rpm. The same goes for ‘lightweight lifters’, which are simply mk4 lifters.
*7. Camshafts*
There is actually a pretty good variety of cam profiles available for VR's. Most of them are very very small, which i don't really get, but i'll lay out the key players. These cams are listed by their advertised duration.(how many degrees the valve is held open for)
*Autotech 262's:* These are nice mild cams with a low lift. This low lift allows for stock valvesprings to be kept. This saves a bunch of time and money if you're not looking to get into paying somebody to tear into it. A slight shift in powerband will go on, making a little up top.
*Schrick 268's:* The best all around cams for these motors. There are considerable gains between these cams, and the Autotechs. Powerband gets a bit nicer as well, making power above 6k







. There are several brands that replicate these fairly closely. Then, there are other branded 268's which have different specifications, particularly when it comes to lift(how far the valve is being pushed open). Schrick lift is .4488". DRC has the best and closest match with their 268's at .450" lift. 
*276's-298's:* There are a number of larger duration hydraulic cams available. These cams idle pretty rough, and make power to the low 7k rpm range. They're usually best if paired up with an aftermarket intake manifold, and engine management beyond chip tuning to get them running right. Many of these size cams will not work with a mk4 headgasket, as their duration makes piston contact.
*8. Headgasket/Headbolts*
*Headgasket-* The oem mk3 head gasket is paper. It gets the job done, however there’s an easy, cheap upgrade here. The mk4 12v vr6 is the exact same engine internally, and uses a thinner, metal head gasket. This raises the vr6’s stock compression of 10:1, to 10.5:1. This is worth 5-7whp on a stock motor.
*Headbolts-* The oem ones will suit just about any N/A application. Just remember that these are stretch bolts, and ONE TIME USE. ARP makes headstuds for these motors, which are nice if you’re planning on pulling the cylinder head on a regular basis as they are reusable.
*9. Exhaust Manifolds/Downpipe*
You've probably read it a million times, headers don't work on vr's. There's got to be a way to make power with them, i don't doubt that, but nobody's had great success with them. So, this brings me into grinding up stock parts...
*Exhaust Manifolds:* These are just hell inside. They're super restrictive, usually nowhere near gasket or exhaust port size, and can be made to flow much much better. It's a dirty job, and i use grinding stownes or carbide bits on my straight die grinder to port them. It takes quite awhile, but i believe average gains on a modified engine are in the 7-10whp range when paired with a modified downpipe.
*Downpipe:* The inlets are tiny! They've also got a big weld on the inside of the inlet flanges! AHH! Solution, have the flanges welded from the outside, and grind out the inner weld. I also usually grind a good bit out of the flange itself....one part i do gasket match.
If you do these things, get fresh gaskets. They're cheap, and exhaust leaks are no fun, or good for solid o2 sensor readings.
Paul made a diy on this: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3603731
*10. Exhaust*
I feel that if you have a stock car with some bolt-on's, you can’t beat the Tectonics 2.5” with a borla. The price is reasonable, the quality is solid, and they make good power. 

Once cams or headwork are added, I suggest a 3" exhaust system. I gained 7whp and 5ft/lb going from a 2.5" system to a 3".(specifics shown in the link below) Mandrel Bending solutions produces the only bolt on 3" exhaust system for our cars. Nice, quality stuff here. 

2.5" vs. 3" dyno thread 

*Testpipe*-This replaces the stock catalytic converter. Honestly, our stock cat isn't horrible for what it is. 42draft designs makes a great piece. Evan is the man http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
42draftdesigns.com

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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (root beer)*

*Timing chains!* These will go bad anywhere from 80-200k. Sooner if maintenance hasn't been up to par. The only thing i've got to make clear here is how to properly intall the upper hydraulic chain tensioner. This looks like a 27mm bolt on the back of the upper timing cover. 

1. Submerge tensioner in oil, i like to use a clear cup. 
2. Pump it a couple times to get the air out. 
3. Once your cam gears are on, put your upper timing cover, and install the tensioner. 
4. Turn your motor over a bunch of times by hand, and triple check timing before reinstalling your intake and starting. This builds some oil pressure up, and lets your chains get jiving in the right direction. 

Timing is always the last thing i do before starting an engine. If you time it, and let it sit, it can very easily hop a tooth on one cam overnight. 

*11. Engine Block*
*“The Miracle Stock Block”*
The majority of the best power on N/A Vr6’s has been made on stock blocks. They’re very stout, and take a ****load of abuse. Stock, they have Forged Crank and Rods, and Cast pistons. None of this limits power to the point that anything on top of the motor does. Most don’t mess with it whereas the norm in other car communities. This is normally a very costly part of building a motor. One reason stock blocks make good power is that oem vw bearings were of high quality. They hold up well, and at a higher mileage, their wear simulates a ’loose’ motor. Oftentimes, when race motors are built, clearances(rod/bearig/crank, and main/bearing/crank) are kept larger, or ’looser’ than what might be used on a street motor in an effort to help everything rotate easier and with less restriction. 
Cliffs: If your rings are holding compression, leave your block alone
*Pistons-*A bigger, higher compression piston will always make more power. Forged piston sets for these motors are usually 7-800 dollar range before the required machine work. Stock bore is 81mm, and 83.5mm can be had using a stock head gasket, bringing it out to a meaty 3.0l. Oem cast 2.9l vw pistons are also available at 82mm. In terms of compression, there haven’t been many high compression vr builds to my knowledge. Higher compression makes more power, however I believe that there are valve clearance issues to be considered when beginning to bump compression beyond 11 or 11.5:1 depending on the exact design of the piston, and how much the block and head have been decked. This avenue is fairly unexplored.
Stock 81mm piston vs. Wiseco 83mm








Precautionary
*Rod bolts-*If a VR6 ‘blows up’, it most likely spun a rod bearing. This is mainly due to oem rod bolts being a little cheesy. They are stretch bolts, and simply wear out over thousands of miles. The best option here is to install arp rod bolts into a stock motor. There is info out there advising to clearance the rod caps for these bolts but I have experience running these bolts in stock motors/rods with no work done. Simply remove 1 bolt at a time, replacing with the arp hardware and torquing to ARP’s specifications(very important). I have seen stock blocks with arp rod bolts hold up for a long period of time on VRT’s in the 500hp range. There's one doing 150 in the 1/4 mile and making 700+ horsepower.
*12. Flywheel/Pullies*
*Flywheel*
This is the first thing bolted to the engine’s crankshaft between the engine and the transmission, and is what the clutch bolts to. The lighter it is, the more power it should make in theory. Having experience with the range of weights, I currently run the Autotech 7lb piece. For my purposes, it is best. However, for a daily, I’d stick to the 10-13 lb flywheels as they offer a little more feel, and ‘umph’ when starting off or shifting. Many have claimed that light flywheels cause clutch chatter, but I have never had this experience. I believe this is a sign of junk components.
*Flywheel bolts*
Oem works fine for the most part. The Stock bolts are stretch bolts, and SHOULD be replaced every time the flywheel is replaced. If you really want to get busy with it, Arp flywheel bolts for a mustang work. A VR6 needs 10. 10mmx1.00. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-254-2901
*Pullies*
Lighter is better. How much performance is it worth? I don’t know. Less stuff spinning, more efficient. If it’s a issue of whether or not it’s worth the money, the crank pulley is the most effective as the stock one is very heavy. The stock pulley offers some harmonic dampening, but not enough jump up and down about a lightweight crank pulley. There are some performance harmonic dampeners out there being developed for the VW market, but even if these to become available for VR6‘s, I wouldn’t worry about it except on a turbo car.
*13. Clutch*
For most purposes, especially on a n/a street car, the stock sach’s clutch is great. When getting into shifting hard, or when a lot of wheel hop is present, the first thing to break are the straps and rivets on the stock pressure plate. 
If an upgrade is necessary, at one time i would have recommended Clutchnet. However, recently it seems as though the company has lost a key player. Quality and customer service have suffered. 

People are all over the place when it comes to what clutches are reliable. I know of some running Bully clutches. I'm currently having great luck with a Competition clutch Stg3 with a kevlar segmented disk. Others are having luck with various stages of Clutchmasters. The big thing you're looking for is upgraded straps and rivets in the pressure plate. Also, for a street car, don't get a pucked disk.....look for something full face or segmented, and with a sprung hub. Do not buy a solid hub disk. 

Just don't get a SPEC. SPEC is garbage for our cars for whatever reason. They do great things for other makes from what i hear, but they routinely fly apart within a few hundred miles. 

Precautionary 
*Clutch safety switch bypass* Your clutch saftey switch is located behind your dash support, at the top of the clutch pedal. This is a 2 pin plug that plugs in toward the firewall. Unplug your clutch safey switch, and jam a regular old fuse in the plug to jumper the two sides together. This allows you to start the car without pressing the clutch down.(early cars start without the clutch in anyway) If you upgrade your clutch to an aftermarket pressure plate, you should not be starting your car with the clutch depressed. With this much spring pressure, it is very stressful on your engine's thrust bearings, particularly when the car isn't running. Thrust bearings keep the crank centered in the engine, front to back. So this can lead to problems in the bottom of the motor....crank walk. So, you're going to have to remember to knock it out of gear from now on. 

Precautionary 
*Upgrade clutch fork*With a stiffer pressure plate, many have bent their clutch forks. This is the piece that the slave cylinder pushes to release the pressure plate. Flipside customs makes a nice reinforced clutch fork that’s hard to beat in terms of price and quality. http://www.flipsidecustoms.com
*Pressure plate bolts:* I like to replace these every 2nd or 3rd time i put a clutch in a car. I torque them to 20ft/lbs, and use blue loctite. These tend to back out, so do this right.
*14. Cooling System*
Precautionary: Thermostat/Fan switch
Except in particularly cold climates, on any vr6 that is modified, I recommend at least a low temperature thermostat and/or a low temperature fan switch(in the radiator). These are hot running motors, and they run well like that. However, when timing is advanced or when compression is raised, they can ‘ping’ or detonate when hot. These are cheap, and function as maintenance items anyway.
*Coolant-*Many swear by and only use g12 for coolant. I see no problem with that. Personally, it’s easier for me to obtain regular old dexcool, so I run that. I haven’t seen any issues running it in my 7 years of vr6 ownership, and in large amounts of side work. Even if it has whatever properties in it that cause whatever properties in vw aluminum to wear over time, it’s not enough to get all fired up about.
*Water pump-*The stock one is plastic impeller, and it’s FINE. Vr’s can have the same problem that 2liters have here with the plastic impeller, but it's more often tied to some old funky coolant. If you really want a metal one, that’s cool too.
*Crack pipe-* This is the coolant pipe that goes across the front of the motor, from the water pump housing to the thermostat housing, with a nipple in the center for the oil cooler/heat exchanger. Waste money on a billet one if you really want to. But if you can follow, if your stock plastic one survived 1xx,xxx miles with your previous owner putting garbage coolant in it, why spend $80 instead of $8?

*15. Ignition System*
*Spark Plugs-* NGK BKR5E.(Or the bosch equivalent Bosch FR8LDC) Dual or single electrode, they both work well. These are the best plugs for these motors imo. They’re some of the cheapest as well. If you forget the part number, go into the parts store and say, “Hi, I need 6 of the cheapest copper NGK plugs for a 97 Jetta VR6, please”. Even if you have a gti, just say Jetta, and even if you have a 98, just say 97. I've come to understand parts guys.
*Plug wires-* oem bosch. I like the mk4 wires because of the pull tabs they have.
*Coilpack-* The oem coil pack is great. The general opinion of them is bad as overtime the plastic deteriorates, and cracks, allowing water to get into them. This happens with all vehicles with coil packs, ours cracking isn’t unusual. It’s just one of those things that you’ve got to buy sometimes. 
Many people have been running MSD coil setups. I feel that this is pretty unnecessary. I had an msd setup that I bought off a buddy who was parting his f.i. setup and ran it on my old motor. I would say that the car ran a little smoother, but I don’t feel that it added any power. All that, for a hit on reliability. The external wires are going to come off at some point, and leave you on 4 cylinders. Many are having no problems on high hp vrt’s in the 500hp range with stock coil packs.
*16. Lubrication*
*Oil-*Everybody uses everything. It doesn’t really matter. Synthetic is basically….synthetic. I run 5w30 Amsoil. Just don’t run 20w50, that’s stupid.
Filter-I use oem from Germanautoparts. At least you know they’re of good quality, and it’s actually cheaper than the purulators or whatever you can get at the local parts stores.
*Oil pump-*I’ve seen very few fail. If you’re having pressure issues, replace it. The biggest thing is to keep the pickup screen from becoming clogged. Parts of timing chain guides tend to come off, and get stuck up in there.
*17. Engine Management*
The VW market is the only one I have ever seen to be so behind on technology. Other makes almost all go to some form of standalone ecu, or chipped/tunable stock ecu as a preliminary modification. Talk to a Honda guy who knows what he’s doing sometime….you’ll get “You’ve NEVER tuned your car?”. We don't HAVE to, because our mass airflow sensors, as much of a crutch as they can be, allow our ecus to compensate for anything but extreme variances. This lack of tuning has been a long trend as there has never been a large VW performance aftermarket. There are no chipable tuning programs available to us.(such as Hondata)
There are many ECU’s available to us, however most require a wiring harness to be built, which is a daunting task for many. Lugtronic, I think is one of the best options here. Kevin makes plug and play harnesses for the majority of VW harnesses.
Paul made a post after installing Megasquirt: 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4319986
Which brings me to…..chips.
They all work, but I’ve found GIAC to make the best power. I’ve run a GIAC non-cam chip on everything from a bone stock motor, to a bolt-on motor, to a 3liter 11:1 compression motor. It has run all of those fairly well, and reliably. 

Tectonics tuning also makes good chips. 

C2's chips are cool because they remove the ecu's need for a second o2 sensor, and secondary air injection. However, i have heard that they do not allow misfire codes to be stored. I don't like them....too many issues across the board.
*18. Fuel*
Run 93.
Your stock fuel pump will work for everything but extreme cases.
Your stock injectors(19#), will work for everything but extreme cases
*Fuel injector cleaner*- The absolute best 'dump in' cleaner is B&G 44k. It is a little pricey at $20 a can, but is the only product that i've seen make a difference. If you really want to get serious, there are some companies such as witchhunter.com that flow, balance, and rebuild injectors. However, aftermarket 19# injectors are so cheap that it might be worth getting those if you're having fueling problems.
*19. Transmission/drivetrain*
This is a weakspot in a vr6 car, but a few small changes make a big difference.
*Ring and Pinion:* There are multipe ring and pinion options that can be taken from various o2a's to change up the car's gearing. A higher ratio ring and pinion makes for shorter gears. This is the same as changing the rear end gears in a muscle car. The ring is bolted to the differential. It changes the final drive of the transmission. 3.39 and 3.65 are both fairly mild. 3.94 is starting to get a little aggressive, whereas, 4.24 is really short. I'm talkin, start in 2nd short.








3.39-all mk3 vr6's, 
3.65-Corrado vr6's and some 4cyl o2a's
3.94-Some 4cyl o2a's
4.24-mk4 2liter o2j's and others


*Shorter 3rd gear* We have a LOOOOOONG 3rd(1.308) in all mk3 vr6 transmissions. If you go to http://www.vwtransaxles.com/code.html, you can find the ratios for all vw transmissions that are important here. This long 3rd makes the 2-3 shift fall a bit further out of powerband than what is best, and makes the 3-4 too far into the powerband. If you swap your 3rd for a 1.345-1.47, i think you'll like it. If you'd like to play with gearing options, check out Team mfactory calculator loaded with vr ratios 

*Differential: * Internally, the weakpoint in an o2a is the stock differential. A differential allows for one wheel to move faster than the other and still have sufficient power given to it. When you go around a corner, the outside wheel moves faster, and your differential is working. The problem with using factory differentials and performance driving is that when one wheel starts spinning, it continues to spin. This applies for straight line traction as well as pulling out of turns and unloading the inside wheel. This also happens to be the part that usually flies out the back of the transmission when it blows up.. Popular LSD, or Limited slip differntial replacements such as Quaife, Peloquin, and Autotech are expensive, but will last you forever. When one wheel begins to spin with these differentials, the other wheel continues to get power, limiting spinning. Not necessary, but a must for exceptionally hard driving.
*Transmission fluid:* 75w90 GL-4 fluids must be used. Best all around, cheap, easy to obtain, is Pennzoil syncromesh. I usually drain this through the 17mm Allen bolt on the rear, bottom of the transmission's differential housing. I fill through the vehicle speed sensor hole at the rear of the top of the transmission. This requires a transmission funnel. The transmission is full when fluid runs out of the 'fill hole' on the front of the transmission, another 17mm allen.
*Axles:* I like Empi axles, and Mobil 1 grease.
*Alternative shifter options:* The best short shifter for the o2a was the dieselgeek piece. The rest of the shifters on the market are pretty lame imo. Nothing's really wrong with stock. I really like those verdict motorsport bushings.
*Mk4 o2j shifter swap:* By swapping the shifterbox, cables, and shift tower(in the transmission) from a mk4 5spd car, shifts will be much smoother and precise. Putting the Mk4 shifter box in only requires that a few holes be drilled in the floor, and some extended studs bolted into the box. This is a great shifter, and oem upgrade, and i'm suprised more people don't try it!
Precautionary:
*Motormounts:* You should run upgraded ones. At least bfi .5 inserts. They don't vibrate at all. Stock mounts allow for too much engine/transmission movement, which is a big cause of drivetrain issues. It also makes the car much nicer to drive and shift.
*Transmission brace:* Corrado's and early passats came with an extra brace on their transmission, between the back of the case, and the rear trans mount. This should be run on anything that's getting driven aggressively. A thread i made awhile back: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3981073
LET ME KNOW WHAT YALLS THINK.








This is a part of your friendly mk3 drag racer invasion
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3294256
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3862384


_Modified by root beer at 3:53 PM 2-15-2010_


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (Scorp67)*

Glad you guys are into it. Anything that could be clearer, or use a picture?


----------



## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (root beer)*

just curious as to why you think running 20w50 synthetic is a bad thing? especially if the car is tracked?
Also include some tricks to lower intake temperatures. Phenolic spacers, heat shielding under the intake manifold, and relocating the IAT into the intake pipe using an Mk4 1.8T sensor.
And there is 1 header proven to make power. S2 metalworks. Theres a thread on it here http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4458534
But as always the cost of it can be offsetting especially since you can make the stock stuff flow pretty well with some work
Good write up considering there are a million threads a year asking whats the best way to make power out of a VR in N/A form


----------



## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (root beer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *root beer* »_
*Coilpack-* The oem coil pack is great. The general opinion of them is bad as overtime the plastic deteriorates, and cracks, allowing water to get into them. This happens with all vehicles with coil packs, ours cracking isn’t unusual. It’s just one of those things that you’ve got to buy sometimes. 
Many people have been running MSD coil setups. I feel that this is pretty unnecessary. I had an msd setup that I bought off a buddy who was parting his f.i. setup and ran it on my old motor. I would say that the car ran a little smoother, but I don’t feel that it added any power. All that, for a hit on reliability. The external wires are going to come off at some point, and leave you on 4 cylinders. I know of lots of people having no problems on high hp vrt’s with stock coil packs. 

I ended up with this MSD when I bought Tim's motor and the MSD finally crapped out after about a year of me driving with it. In running a coilpack, I notice no tangible difference between the two. Yes, the MSD looks really, really cool...but if you ain't worried about looking pretty, spend your money elsewhere.

Oh, and that Corrado trans brace may be the single-most easy, cheap insurance you can give your car if you like romping on it.


_Modified by son of planrforrobert at 9:21 AM 2-13-2010_


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (WannabeVWguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WannabeVWguy* »_just curious as to why you think running 20w50 synthetic is a bad thing? especially if the car is tracked?
Also include some tricks to lower intake temperatures. Phenolic spacers, heat shielding under the intake manifold, and relocating the IAT into the intake pipe using an Mk4 1.8T sensor.
And there is 1 header proven to make power. S2 metalworks. Theres a thread on it here http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4458534
But as always the cost of it can be offsetting especially since you can make the stock stuff flow pretty well with some work
Good write up considering there are a million threads a year asking whats the best way to make power out of a VR in N/A form

This oil pump simply isn't geared for something as heavy as 20w50. Nor are the lifters designed for it, more imporantly. Talk to road racers, they run light oil....oftentimes straight weight.
I was actually thinking about adding the 1.8t sensor stuff. I'll put something in there on that. I'm not big on phenolic spacers, i'll put something in there about it, but they're just pretty expensive for the gains you get.
That s2 metalworks header has only been proven by s2 metalworks. I haven't known of anyone who's opinion i trust running it successfully, so i don't consider it to be proven.
Thanks for the input! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Modified by root beer at 9:21 AM 2-13-2010_


_Modified by root beer at 9:24 AM 2-13-2010_


----------



## Nolig23 (Apr 22, 2005)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (son of planrforrobert)*


_Quote, originally posted by *son of planrforrobert* »_
I ended up with this MSD when I bought Tim's motor and the MSD finally crapped out after about a year of me driving with it. In running a coilpack, I notice no tangible difference between the two. Yes, the MSD looks really, really cool...but if you ain't worried about looking pretty, spend your money elsewhere.
'
I went with MSD. I can say that the car definitely runs a bit smoother, but I did it for a different reason. I figured in the long run it will be cheaper. If one of the coilpacks goes bad I 'll only be spending $42 instead of having to buy an entire coilpack. Even if all three went bad all at once it would still be less expensive than the cost of a new "oem" coilpack.


----------



## MINT GTI (Dec 7, 2002)

*Re: (pop&lock)*

when putting my mk4 vr6 together i opted for a paper head gasket.. ya.. i was being cheap and I needed it then and there..
my jetta is SO slow.. it just doesnt make sense.. ive never really looked into it as i didnt really care... but im getting annoyed lately. I think it has alot to do with the HG. Im gonna try and do some of the stuff you mentioned.. 
As for a gutted or cloned 2.9 mani.. that **** works.. i swap a mani on my old mk2 on the dyno. The car made 7whp and 12wtq on the motor and 15whp and 35wtq on spray.. the biggest difference was the powerband on the street... i revved that car down to the clock.. so much fun.


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: (MINT GTI)*

Thanks guys. Figured i should put it in one spot before i start forgetting things


----------



## PKstrategy (Oct 21, 2004)

*Re: (MINT GTI)*

Tim, always inspired and motivated by your info http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
I didn't give it all a thorough read and its about time i got back into this
saving for later


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *root beer* »_Thanks guys. Figured i should put it in one spot before i start forgetting things










You got plenty of time to get old and forget







You know it's bad when you start doing the same things over 5-10 years later and then go "oh ****, THAT's why I did what I did"








You got PM with my comments. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Dutchsider (Apr 27, 2006)

*Re: (MINT GTI)*

GREAT write up!! I really enjoyed reading it.
My opinion: I found the MSD setup to be a very nice upgrade. Might have just been a mental thing, but I felt that it gave the motor a little more pep and it revved a bit faster.
Also, the short shift options, I have had the B&M short shift kit in my car since 2005 and have loved it since it went in. I also took about an inch off of the shifter shaft. I also have the Verdict Motorsports aluminum bushings in as well. I love how all of these things work together.


----------



## 92jetta9a (Apr 3, 2007)

*Re: (root beer)*

Good write up. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I have followed your's and paul's threads for some time now and commend you both for your knowledge and willingness to answer questions in the 12v community. 
I do have a question regarding the porting in the head. You stated that you are not gasket matched and wonder why? 
I understand the 12v head has a few issues to overcome and am interested in the best way to do this. I did start on one over the summer knowing that I still had a back up if needed. That being said, I needed it because I went too far. 
I was wondering if you could elaborate on the key points you focused on? As well as how close you did get to gasket matching the intake and exhaust ports? Also, did you polish the exhaust ports? 
Sorry for all the questions. 
Thanks


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: (92jetta9a)*

Hah, we were actually discussing this. I could go into what all i worked on, but i don't actually have flow data, just track times that i like to think are partially a result of what i did there. Try to read up on headflow a little before you start, and take your time.


----------



## Pedmaster (Dec 3, 2000)

*Re: (top fuel)*

Awesome write up, with some of the names in here you know the thread is good








As an aside, I have a set of Cat 268's in my car, a good friend of mine did the installation, he's a very trusted source of knowledge for me and upon his suggestion I went W/O valve springs with the cams. His theory was the stiffer springs are likely to impede the drivetrain a little bit and it was unlikely I was going to get valve float unless I was REALLY hammering it. I've been running them like this for 6 months and have zero complaints. A good friend with an R32 is running Schricks in the same manor. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## :skribble: (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (root beer)*

some gret tips and good insight as well as well thought out opinions. thanks fo the time and effort put into this one


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## oldskoolveedubbin (May 16, 2004)

*Re: skribble*

this definitely needs to be sticky'd to the top of the mk3 forums. 
i read this completely, and agree with everything, only exception i would make is about the billet "crack pipe"; the oem plastic ones break the stupid bottom nipple with ease, and the $80 billet one may be expensive, but ive wasted nearly $80 on gas, time off at job, and overall aggrevation breaking a plastic one at 6:30 on a sunday evening. 
that, and to add about short shifters, the RSD unit from tmtuning is nearly identical to the dieselgeek, and can be purchased brand new still


----------



## Andras.R (Apr 21, 2006)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (root beer)*

Good Read! It's great having reputable 12v knowledge on the forums. Your's and Pauls opinions/pointers are some of the few i truly value http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Northren vr6 (May 29, 2004)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (Andras.R)*

Regarding the MSD coilpack setup.... I had a intermittant misfire that wouldn't go away.. changed out coilpacks, plugs, wires, nothing made a bit of difference.
Installed the MSD coilpacks, and the MSD wires and viola, misfire was gone.
I remember reading somewhere that the stock coilpack is ~ 10kv, where as the MSD is ~ 40kv. I run mine with a ford ballast resistor @ 9v or so as to not fry the coils with full juice.
If yours works, then great stick with it, but this is another option.
Regardless, the cost of a stock coilpack + wires far exceedes the cost of the MSD setup.
I'd have to say the single biggest thing thats transformed my car is a LSD + 3.94 R+P - It REALLY wakes the car up.


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (root beer)*

Some additions made. Plugs, exhaust manifold link, 1.8t iat sensor, standalone link. More links will be added as i find good ones.


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: (Pedmaster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pedmaster* »_Awesome write up, with some of the names in here you know the thread is good








As an aside, I have a set of Cat 268's in my car, a good friend of mine did the installation, he's a very trusted source of knowledge for me and upon his suggestion I went W/O valve springs with the cams. His theory was the stiffer springs are likely to impede the drivetrain a little bit and it was unlikely I was going to get valve float unless I was REALLY hammering it. I've been running them like this for 6 months and have zero complaints. A good friend with an R32 is running Schricks in the same manor. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Yea, i mean, it'll run like that. I think the cat 268's a little milder on lift, but you're really skating the surface there. I at least wouldn't murder the limiter or anything.








The r32 valvetrain is much stouter than ours, they can handle most aftermarket camshafts from what i hear.


_Modified by root beer at 2:40 PM 2-14-2010_


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## themagellan (Mar 30, 2007)

Really great post, I hope to use this as a guide when building my vr6 this summer.
Thank you


----------



## themagellan (Mar 30, 2007)

btw what kind of Tires do you run?


----------



## Danza. (Apr 6, 2008)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (son of planrforrobert)*


_Quote, originally posted by *son of planrforrobert* »_
I ended up with this MSD when I bought Tim's motor and the MSD finally crapped out after about a year of me driving with it. In running a coilpack, I notice no tangible difference between the two. Yes, the MSD looks really, really cool...but if you ain't worried about looking pretty, spend your money elsewhere.


I don't know what Tim had the plugs gapped at so its likely it didnt make any power.
Also, Like I said it is more than likely an ICM issue or a bad connection, not the actual MSD


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: (themagellan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *themagellan* »_btw what kind of Tires do you run?

kumho mx on the street
22x8x13 m&h on the track


----------



## .:V.R.6.6.6:. (Mar 30, 2007)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (VR6VDub172)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Great thread. thank you.


----------



## whalefetus (Jun 29, 2007)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (Mr.Bullet)*

thanks, this is the stuff i thought id be seeing everyday when i came to vwvortex


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## MrMoon (Dec 23, 2008)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (whalefetus)*

great writeup
you might want to add in some info about the schrick intake manifold and how it works with the schrick 268s, theres definitely work that can been done on it before you put it on as the casts are pretty rough
the lower intake piece can be cleaned up too
and test pipes are good for some additional whp just make sure to double stack 02 defoulers so you don't throw a cel
I don't really like any of the short shifters, I had the b&m which was ok but I think you end up shifting faster than the synchros can handle and you grind gears


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (root beer)*

Nice, i kinda grazed over those. I forgot these cars came with cats








Added








Those schrick manifolds are few and far between, and overpriced because of the show crowd. I'm not crazy about them.


_Modified by root beer at 4:49 PM 2-14-2010_


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## MrMoon (Dec 23, 2008)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (root beer)*

they do work though, its been a while since I had mine and I forget what the exact figure was but they add 30-40hp in the midrange which really helps


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (MrMoon)*

Nooooo, not anything like that. That's silly talk.


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## MrMoon (Dec 23, 2008)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (root beer)*

haha have you driven a car with one?
it makes a big difference when the 268s aren't on cam and youre just driving around like 2-4k


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## MrMoon (Dec 23, 2008)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (MrMoon)*

if you can find a dyno sheet of a car with 268s but no headwork ill post up my old sheet and well compare


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## Dutchsider (Apr 27, 2006)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (MrMoon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MrMoon* »_if you can find a dyno sheet of a car with 268s but no headwork ill post up my old sheet and well compare

the Schrick intake puts a nice little kick in to the low end torque. I have yet to get the flapper to function properly but if you can get one for a decent price, it's a great intake option. That being said, 1200 is way too much.


----------



## Danza. (Apr 6, 2008)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (MrMoon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MrMoon* »_haha have you driven a car with one?
it makes a big difference when the 268s aren't on cam and youre just driving around like 2-4k

He actually has. My old car, with Shrick VGi and matching 268s

I'd say 7-10 hp over stock is pretty accurate.


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## MrMoon (Dec 23, 2008)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (Danza.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Danza.* »_
He actually has. My old car, with Shrick VGi and matching 268s

I'd say 7-10 hp over stock is pretty accurate.

hmm I noticed a pretty good difference between before and after but maybe my butt dyno wasn't calibrated right


----------



## Pedmaster (Dec 3, 2000)

*Re: (root beer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *root beer* »_
Yea, i mean, it'll run like that. I think the cat 268's a little milder on lift, but you're really skating the surface there. I at least wouldn't murder the limiter or anything.









Hah, yah it wouldn't surprise me if the Cat's were mild b/c my idle is still pretty good with a bit of lump to it. Luckily my pension is for 2nd-3rd gear pulls so I'm not killin it anyway. Great thread


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## olong_us (Nov 3, 2006)

Awsome write up, makes me want to fix my heap.


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## The Luscious (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: (beacom)*

Thanks for taking the time to put this together. I'm going through a VR for my Cabrio right now.
This is a nice checklist.

Tons of good info in here. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








Cheers,




-Dan


----------



## stealthcheetah (Jan 2, 2010)

*Re: (05JettaGLXVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *05JettaGLXVR6* »_Everyone...and there mother.

lol. Well then its moved up to the top of the to-do list!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*

I ran a VGi on my car, but none of that silly flapper stuff. Gains past peak were pretty good compared to stock 2.8, but I was using a bigger TB at the time as well. I get my torque from gearing


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (root beer)*

Do you have a source for the head gasket gain?
I'm not so sure that is a bolt on 8-10hp mod...
Interesting, good effort...


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (billyVR6)*

No, it's a total estimate. What do you think would be more suitable? 5-7?


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## MrMoon (Dec 23, 2008)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (root beer)*

I always thought it was good for about 5whp
same with underdrive pulleys


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (MrMoon)*

Edited to 5-7. I can't imagine anyone so motivated to do a back to back headgasket swap dyno, so i was just making an educated guess


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (root beer)*

I would err on the low side of 3-5hp/tq since it is not documented.
Results would vary based on condition of the engine too...
There is an old rule of thumb that gets kicked around:
1 full point raised = 4% increase in power (average).
Either way, it's well worth the time and effort. These MLS gasket are inexpensive when compared to other parts that net a similar power gain. It is a much better gasket to start with as far as quality and there is power to be had just from using it.


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*FV-QR*

Guys,
I added this to the FAQ in a couple different sections so please continue with the good discussion but keep it on topic please.
If anybody notices that it's going off topic please report to me so I can keep it clean. When the discussion dies down I'll lock it up and let it go into the archive. 
Good job root beer. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## life.love.regret (Mar 19, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (root beer)*

awesome write up
looks like im going to save some more loot and go for some 268's over the autotech 262's
although i wont be able to afford the schrick's


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## VaGPuncher (Jul 22, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (life.love.regret)*

this is real nice.. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to root beer.. not too sure how inexpensive it is though11


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (VaGPuncher)*

You save money by doing work and researching correctly. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
It is cheap compared to many other motors/manufacturers.


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## VaGPuncher (Jul 22, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (root beer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *root beer* »_You save money by doing work and researching correctly. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
It is cheap compared to many other motors/manufacturers.

any round about cost for what everything listed? also any dyno proven power for the setup? just curious!!


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (VaGPuncher)*

It's all about shopping around.
My motor this year:
Stock 160k block
mk4 hg
schrick 268's
autotech springs
autotech flywheel
my own port work
a nice valvejob
2.5" TT exhaust
the other bits
Went as high as 108 mph in the 1/4 mile and i believe is over 200whp. I put it together for between $1000 and $1200 including the cost of the motor. Even less than that if you consider what doubles as maintenance parts. No dyno though. 


_Modified by root beer at 9:59 PM 2-15-2010_


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## VaGPuncher (Jul 22, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (root beer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *root beer* »_It's all about shopping around.
My motor this year:
Stock 160k block
mk4 hg
schrick 268's
autotech springs
autotech flywheel
my own port work
a nice valvejob
2.5" TT exhaust
the other bits
Went as high as 108 mph in the 1/4 mile and i believe is over 200whp. I put it together for between $1000 and $1200 including the cost of the motor. Even less than that if you consider what doubles as maintenance parts. No dyno though. 

_Modified by root beer at 9:59 PM 2-15-2010_

impressive..so the block is stock then?


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (VaGPuncher)*

well, i did scrape all the carbon off the pistons, lol.


----------



## VaGPuncher (Jul 22, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (root beer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *root beer* »_well, i did scrape all the carbon off the pistons, lol.

lol..well great work man keep it up


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*


_Quote »_
well, i did scrape all the carbon off the pistons, lol.

WRONG! You leave it on for higher compression!! You're down 2whp maybe more.
I agree Mk4 MLS is worth 5whp *tops* the thing that I do notice is that motors with them feel snappier. Also, I've had less detonation issues with the MK4 gasket on all VR6's then the fiber ones. 
The Schrick 268s dropped .15et off my car from the Autotech 262s. That's a no joke track gain. My dynos didn't show any gain (2whp loss comparatively) but I think there was an issue with the motor (low comp on #4) interfering with it.


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
WRONG! You leave it on for higher compression!! You're down 2whp maybe more.


I had this mental debate. Not my style.


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## yeahbob (Jan 25, 2010)

any numbers for hp and tq out of a motor build like this?


----------



## MrMoon (Dec 23, 2008)

*Re: (yeahbob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *yeahbob* »_any numbers for hp and tq out of a motor build like this?

about 200whp give or take depending on what dyno youre on


----------



## burnite2 (Jan 14, 2009)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (root beer)*

from what i remember, the intake air temp sensor on a 12v is treaded and from what i see the 1.8T is not. how did you make this work? i would like to try this out if its doable.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (burnite2)*

The 1.8t iat doesn't go into the intake manifold. You'd need to ziptie it somewhere that gets airflow, like down by your intake.


----------



## ruck (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: (Dutchsider)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Dutchsider* »_The timing chains were done in conjunction with a 262 install in one 11 hour marathon install. I wouldn't have had the will power to do more









that will be my saturday one of these next two weekends








glad i read this thread before i go putting a motor together though, really some good little stuff. def sticky material


----------



## Pf3il (Dec 28, 2004)

*FV-QR*

awesome thread, tim!
there was one guy recently (estyles) who had made some custom headers that were showing 10whp gain. dunno if they were proven by anyone else, but i feel they're worth mentioning.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Pf3il)*

Thanks Evan. Yea, it was just their dyno, and 10whp over stock manifolds. As soon as i have some experience with them, or hear of anybody reputable having good results, i'd totally add them. There's no real reason headers aren't making power on these motors, so i'd like to see them do good things!


----------



## mk3pete (Jan 16, 2010)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (root beer)*

the 1.8 t sensors sounds like a good mod just a bit unsure how id get it too work 
ie where to put it, would you just leave the old one there and use the plug from it?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*

For the 1.8T IAT I just used a zip tie through the mounting hole and hooked it to something near my filter (outside the engine bay). I then unplugged the stocker and extended the wires to reach.


----------



## Pedmaster (Dec 3, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*

I know I'm probably dense but I'm still having a bit of trouble envisioning your location. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## vdubxcrew (Jul 25, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (root beer)*

Just read the post and thought it was swell. I've been modifying my N/A VR for the last 10 years and have learned alot of the tricks and tried and tested, retried and tested some more. There is alot of good quality fact based material here. Alot of it is what I've learned from over the years. Thought I'd give a response to some of what was posted:
UPPER INTAKE TUBE:

There is a very cheap alternative to the stock ripple tube that gives more consistant flow and looks nice as well. Just find a 3" 180 aluminum u-bend intercooler tube on ebay and make the appropriate cuts to size. I paid $30 shipped. For OBD2 there is no modifications need except for running a catch can for your PCV. OBD1 will have to have a nipple welded for the idle air valve.
SCHRICK MANIFOLD:
I couldn't promote this enough. It definitely gives the car more midrange power which on the street is where most diving takes place. The Schrick mani can be modified to flow better as well and with it's 3 piece design, it makes it pretty easy to disassemble, port and reasemble. I noticed definite gains from doing this.
PORTED THROTTLE BODIES:
I've been doing this for a few years now and have had much success with both OBD1 and OBD2. One thing to clearly note, they both can be ported and modified but you absolutely can not de-ramp an OBD2 withought turning it into an "ON/OFF" switch. The OBD1 TB has much more room to play with. There are several different characteristics between them that determine how well they flow. The OBD1 has a 3.25" inlet and a smaller butterfly plate whereas the OBD2 has a 3" inlet and a larger butterfly plate. So the OBD2 has more capability of flowing more air due to the larger volume. I believe the OBD1 has better velocity due to the large-to-small bore and has seen noticeable gains when ported and machining the butterfly shaft.
WEIGHT REDUCTION:
self explanatory. The lighter you can get your motor/car, the more efficient/quicker it will be.
OIL SYSTEM:
depending on your style of driving, ie autocross it is a very important modification to get a more efficient oilpan with baffles. The MK5 R32 pan is a direct bolt on upgrade which has superior characteristics over stock VR pan such as aluminum design better for oil cooling, it's baffled, more oil capacity and sits higher above the front frame so it's less succeptable to getting hit. It does require that you use the MK5 R32 pick-up arm. Another thing to look into is a crank scraper which keeps oil from building up around the crank at higher rpm's, thus relieving rotational mass.

So much good info in this post. Let's try and keep it to the top.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*


__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view









Literally right next to the filter.


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (vdubxcrew)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdubxcrew* »_WEIGHT REDUCTION

Oh man, don't get me started


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## Pedmaster (Dec 3, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
Literally right next to the filter.

Perfect, cheers


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *root beer* »_
Oh man, don't get me started










His car is 50lbs lighter then mine just from not eating.


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## Pedmaster (Dec 3, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*

I suppose in the weight reduction argument I have been thinking about getting a light weight battery, I've been doing some reading on the argument that Decca makes Braille's batteries and thus can be had much cheaper. I would think building a NA motor you'd want to shift/lose as much weight as possible.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Pedmaster)*

I run a deka etx18l. It gets the job done, and i'm sure i could even go to one of the smaller ones.
thread of deka testimonials:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3726253


_Modified by root beer at 3:34 PM 2-17-2010_


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## mk3pete (Jan 16, 2010)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*

For the 1.8T IAT I just used a zip tie through the mounting hole and hooked it to something near my filter (outside the engine bay). I then unplugged the stocker and extended the wires to reach.
cheers matey will definatly give this a go


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## VaGPuncher (Jul 22, 2006)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (root beer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *root beer* »_
HAH. I wouldn't have been nearly functional enough. Plus, i have an intoxicated alterego for all that









you deleted a/c, power steering and the sai? if so do you have a CEL from the sai and is there any way around it?


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (VaGPuncher)*

Yup, all deleted. I rock a bulbless cluster


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*

AC and power steering are for people with weak spirits and girl arms.








To remove EGR and SAI on the OBD1 cut ECU pin 10. Delete everything other then the SAI control solenoid.
Oh and I use a Deka ETX14. If I leave the car for a week or more without starting it, I have to jump it. If I'm driving it every day I have no issues. Even starts the car @ 20deg with standalone


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## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_AC and power steering are for people with weak spirits and girl arms.










This. Going without PS is actually not terrible, as long as you aren't a *****.


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## $helby (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (vdubfrodo09)*

i've been without powersteering and a/c for 2+ years and at least 60k miles http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## RatBustard (Jun 15, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR ($helby)*

i feel like ripping out my power steering, it was a lot more fun without it.


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## Pedmaster (Dec 3, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (n0rdicalex.)*

I would remove my AC as I'm not a huge fan of it anyway but is it really worth the effort??


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## ruck (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (n0rdicalex.)*

to delete power steering what exactly do you need? a manual rack from a mk2? i suppose ill search but it might also be some good info for the thread


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## Pedmaster (Dec 3, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (ruck)*

There is also a loop back that the MK2 guys do to their ps racks/pumps to make them manual, unfortunately I don't have alot more info than that.


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## Pf3il (Dec 28, 2004)

to delete the power steering, just connect the two lines off the rack to each other with a barb fitting, remove the pump and all other lines, and get a (insert length here) belt.
i like my power steering and AC.










_Modified by Pf3il at 12:41 PM 2-18-2010_


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## VaGPuncher (Jul 22, 2006)

*Re: (Pf3il)*

I'm obd 2!! Deleted a/c but not ps!! Wanna get rid of that sai without a CEL!! Also am a ups driver I gotta deal with no ps almost everyday so it's nice to drive home with it since it's a local drive and no highways!!


_Modified by VaGPuncher at 1:53 PM 2-18-2010_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*

OBD2 SAI delete with no CEL requires the C2 chip.
My GTI with no PS is still easier to drive then my Rover with PS


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (Pedmaster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pedmaster* »_I would remove my AC as I'm not a huge fan of it anyway but is it really worth the effort??

Everything removed from the firewall out will net you 27 lbs. of weight off the car. If you dig into the dash you will bring the total to about 30 lbs.
The power you get back from the A/C, the P/S, or both is a tough call; I’ve never seen it documented. I had always wanted to pull the serp belt off at the end of a dyno session but always forgot. Any takers???!
Anyway, if you’re looking to ditch 27 lbs. it is there for the taking and it isn’t that much effort.
I always had power steering though and ran a UR pulley on it.


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## Kabinotar (May 21, 2005)

Took me a little over an hour to remove my A/C from the firewall out. Pretty easy to do. Couldn't tell one way or the other if it was beneficial.


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## teknoracing (Mar 31, 2004)

*Re: (Kabinotar)*

Just got a vr and this thread helped out alot. Will look into cams and the manifold stuff.


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## catbed (Jun 5, 2008)

there any sort of write up for the IAT relocation? pictures or anything?
edit. guess i missed those posts. nevermind.


_Modified by catbed at 2:20 AM 2-19-2010_


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## qwerty1321 (Sep 2, 2009)

*Re: (MINT GTI)*

so how much did u end up spending? dont feel like looking and adding it all up lol


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## ruck (Jun 20, 2005)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *qwerty1321* »_so how much did u end up spending? dont feel like looking and adding it all up lol










just read the thread

_Quote, originally posted by *root beer* »_It's all about shopping around.
My motor this year:
Stock 160k block
mk4 hg
schrick 268's
autotech springs
autotech flywheel
my own port work
a nice valvejob
2.5" TT exhaust
the other bits
Went as high as 108 mph in the 1/4 mile and i believe is over 200whp. I put it together for between $1000 and $1200 including the cost of the motor. Even less than that if you consider what doubles as maintenance parts. No dyno though.


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## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (dub_slug)*

great write up, and since we are talking about cheap mods... synthetics are not synthetics theres group III (semisynthetic) and Group IV (real synthetic) so Amsol is Group IV and expensive I use 5-40 Rotella synthetc group III (cheap) theres great oil analysis done by members
also the ford coilpack is a lot cheaper then the MSD ( just as powerful)and now you dont have to change sparkplug cables if you use a 2003+ mustang coilpack http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif using 3923 sparkplugs gapped at .034


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*

I still use a stock coilpack with DIY heat spacers.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (ricardo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ricardo* »_great write up, and since we are talking about cheap mods... synthetics are not synthetics theres group III (semisynthetic) and Group IV (real synthetic) so Amsol is Group IV and expensive I use 5-40 Rotella synthetc group III (cheap) theres great oil analysis done by members

It still doesn't matter.







I get dealer pricing on amsoil, and we have it at our shop. That's why i run it.
My point about the coilpacks is that they may be a little less expensive, but you're sacraficing reliability.... I see nothing but inevitable problems from those setups. Plus, who said you have to buy anything new?


_Modified by root beer at 5:50 PM 2-19-2010_


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## hover (Mar 9, 2005)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (vcampg)*

I rarely poke my head in the MK3 forum nowadays, but I'm glad that I did today. I really thought this thread was going to be a lolfest and reminiscent of banfest, but there is a TON of great info in here. 
Since deleting the SAI and AC was mentioned earlier on the page. Mine are gone as well. I do have a CEL, but whenever I pull the codes it just says ERROR: WVWMK3. I think it means that I have a MK3, and the light is supposed to stay on, because it's only on for stupid **** that bears no relevance on anything. 
The CEL is actually not on for the SAI delete. I converted to OBD-2 for multiple reasons, one of which being the ability to go with C2 for engine management. IMO, these guys are gods among men, and can tune the oley ell out of the VR, turbo or not. The Golf runs soo much better than it did on OBD1 and GIAC. 
I'll have to check out that trans brace. I haven't done that yet.


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## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (hover)*

One thing i wanted to add...
If you want to delete your power steering the quick/easy way, just unscrew the 3 bolts holding the pulley on, remove ps pulley, put the new shorter belt on and go. It's that easy and the gains are nice. 
I actually prefer not having power steering when driving in the snow because you can actually feel where the tires are going


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (dub_slug)*

Truth^ The power steering parts don't weigh much in the grand scheme of things, so you could just leave it on there, and not worry about looping lines.
If you already have a/c off, you don't even need to remove the pulley, you can just put on the baby belt!


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## violentaesthete (Oct 27, 2008)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pedmaster* »_There is also a loop back that the MK2 guys do to their ps racks/pumps to make them manual, unfortunately I don't have alot more info than that.


capt dreads has the fittings documented on page four or so of his build thread in mk2 forums. i just cut and barbed mine, but am going to put a breather on it cause i hear that helps.


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## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (violentaesthete)*

great info from knowledgeable people.
im using MT-90 in my trans now, but think the pennzoil syncromesh felt better.


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## dish90 (Aug 22, 2009)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (root beer)*

Will these mods be the same with the Corrado 2.9 vr6 engine?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*

Redline is horrible, I use Torco now. For those that have chronic problems shifting into 2nd at high rpm, check the 1-2 hub slider. The teeth get pretty banged up and will keep it from engaging. It'll be fine at low rpm but as they rise, it'll just not go into gear. Won't even grind! Pain in the rear problem to solve.
When you loop the PS lines, you won't need a breather.


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## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (dish90)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dish90* »_Will these mods be the same with the Corrado 2.9 vr6 engine?

yes


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (dish90)*

To hell with that 7199rpm 1-2 shift with MT-90. I switched to syncromesh, and have been having much better luck. That, or i'm just less of a spazz.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (TightDub)*

No problem. I'm glad folks are getting some use out of this. I had a week and a half off my student teaching on account of the snow...figured i'd do SOMETHING productive.


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## effdbmx1 (Dec 27, 2007)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (root beer)*

just saw that 1.8t IAT(Intake air temerature) sensor mod. do I just need the sensor and then just swap it? or do i need to change the wiring around or something? i didn't really understand the original explanation...


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## Danza. (Apr 6, 2008)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (effdbmx1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *effdbmx1* »_just saw that 1.8t IAT(Intake air temerature) sensor mod. do I just need the sensor and then just swap it? or do i need to change the wiring around or something? i didn't really understand the original explanation...

you will need the wire to extend the stock wiring if you want to move hte sensor closer to the intake area.
Unplug the electrical connector that plugs into your stock IAT. Leave the stock IAT itself plugged into the manifold.
Lay out the wire you need to lengthen the sensor wire to reach to your intake.
Solder in extension to stock wiring.
Connect stock electrical connector to 1.8t sensor and ziptie/bolt whereever you would like it.


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## cjslapshot (Dec 22, 2005)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (n0rdicalex.)*

this is a cool writeup but reasonably priced it is not.

_Quote, originally posted by *n0rdicalex.* »_good stuff man.








any word on those drc 256's you had a thread about a while ago?


256 are my personal favorite. great smooth power in the middle rpm's...


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## mk3pete (Jan 16, 2010)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (cjslapshot)*

1.8t IAT 35$
http://www.034motorsport.com/a...0&y=0


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## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

*Re: How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful Vr6. (mk3pete)*

Or FREE if you can find one at a junkyard


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*

I had a few 1.8t intake manifolds sitting around at the time, which inspired trying it out. FWIW it doesn't make any difference when I had standalone and had timing retard with rising manifold temps disabled.


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## ruck (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*

so when you do the 1.8t iat sensor you leave the stock one in the manifold?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*

Yes leave the stock sensor in the manifold, unless you have something better to plug the hole with.


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## dawgpound (Jan 24, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*

i would be curious to see what tims car would dyno with 268s and the stock or "clone" manifold with the chipped ecu. would be intresting. 200whp isnt easy.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (dawgpound)*

I should have a 2.5" vs. 3" exhaust dyno comparison coming up as soon as the car goes back together @ Charm city tuning.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*

Make sure you use similar mufflers or it'll throw the results off.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

The only thing I would add to this is while your crank and cams are out, polish the bearing surface using 600 grit.
Your machine shop uses 600 dry on a giant sanding belt rotating your crank/cams at 3000+rpm while pushing down on a belt sander to micropolish.
There are two schools of thought, one says stay at 600 grit which equals a 7-9 RA and then the most you would go is 800 grit which is about 4-6 RA, the theory is the surface roughness holds oil.
Other folks go to 2000 grit + rogue. 
Mic before/after, but you are going to remove basically jack all by doing it with your hands.
You will end up with a much happier motor up high less drag rotating the journals in the oil film in the high RPM's.
VW with the cam over bucket design leaves a TON of friction in their heads to rob power.

/* Edited to correct RA values */

Go against the direction of rotation, so microscopic burrs are oriented proper. Clockwise rotating motors, rotate around the journal against that. 




_Modified by gdoggmoney at 12:41 PM 2-27-2010_


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## myreversewave (Feb 7, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (05JettaGLXVR6)*

I dont know if this has been mentioned or gives any real gains but I along with some ppl have bypassed the coolant lines so that they dont go into the the throttle body. So no hot coolant running thru, potentialy heating up the throttle body during the summer increasing air intake temps/


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## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (myreversewave)*

It is probably minuscule as far as gains are concerned...but it sure is a cheap and easy way to make sure you are getting the coldest shot of air possible.
Oh, how's your jaw man?


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## myreversewave (Feb 7, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (son of planrforrobert)*


_Quote, originally posted by *son of planrforrobert* »_
Oh, how's your jaw man?

ha its good, it pops like crazy whenev i chew, doc says itll prolly always do that. im back in NC tho, still want that fender? black betty back on the road? i still have it boxed up, could send it out tomorrow after work, just gotta find that UPS number i wrote down somewhere.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*

If you did that to the crank, you'd lose all your bearings with the quickness. Been there/done that. Micropolish on the crank, NOTHING else.


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## Ziptied (Dec 1, 2009)

how much of a gain am i looking at if i get a intake that goes to the ground when i have a cone filter in my engine bay?


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## vdubbinYT (May 14, 2008)

What are all the parts needed for the 02J shifter swap onto the 02A? I picked up the shifter and cables with cable mounting bracket, shift weight (from an 02J) ..I can't seem to find the diy thread for this anymore. pics of the parts too, if possible?? TIA!


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

You need the shifterbox, cables, and shift tower assembly that goes down into the transmission.

Mounting the shifterbox is really the only awkward part. I removed the front 'studs', which are actually bolts from the shifter box, and replaced them with longer bolts. I drilled two holes in the exhaust tunnel for these. For the rear mounts, i drilled two new holes in the car's rear mounting bracket and simply nut and bolted it. I used a tap and die kit to thread the shifter for my mk3 style shift knob. Pclamps are good for securing the cables together, and away from the car's downpipe.


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## Grabbit (Apr 27, 2001)

Awesome thread, thanks for the write up. Any links to the 1.8t intake air sensor mod? Also if you swap to the mk4 shifter box/cables do they still have the same style screw on shift knob?


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## Grabbit (Apr 27, 2001)

Bump 

Other than the Turn2 CAI what other brands feature the same style of construction (no bends and intakes from the fender) Carbonio, possibly Auto-tech?? :beer:


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

The mk4 shiftbox doesn't have threads, but you can make them if you'd like. 

I run the autotech intake on my car currently. Got a sweet deal on it.


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

bump! this looks like an awesome thread.

i am going to start reading this tonight -- root beer, i almost sent you a PM on here since i have been having trouble finding information.... it seems as you get more knowledgeable it's rare that you find some one who knows more than you  i saw your name a couple places and was gonna pm ya, but instead i went through your threads LOL.

new vortex blahhh. slow today too.

:thumbup:to ya!


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## 1337cshacker (Aug 27, 2009)

Tekron for president said:


> new vortex blahhh. slow today too.
> 
> :thumbup:to ya!


 Least it works at all now for a while you could not get to it. well sort of but not really. 

Read about first 3 pages if dis thread a long time ago it's a dope one :thumbup: Good do's and dont's.


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## a2thej22 (Apr 13, 2007)

amazing write up!:thumbup:


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I'm actually back to backing exhausts today on the dyno at Charm city tuning. I'll be making another thread. Keep a look out.

Home ported head
competition valve job
schrick 268's
giac non-cam chip
2.9 clone
ported exhaust manifolds and dp
mk4 hg
170k block

2.5 and 3" exhausts being tested.

I just hope the car's running right. It's trapping ok at the track....a little low in the heat, but idling like a p.o.s., haven't really had time to figure the issue out. We'll see.


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## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

wooh! got through it. i'm rather dumb, and you are rather smart, so i'm gonna bug you with a lot of questions/observations...hopefully they'll benefit the thread, as i do think this is a good one.

1. mounts for mk2? want something pretty stiff.

2. sucks they don't make that dieselgeek shifter anymore, and i can't use my 16v short shifter obviously:banghead: any other decent shortshifters?

3. where do you suggest relocating the IAT once swapped with a 1.8t one? i have a spare one from my s4... i'll have to see if they're the same / it's usable. they look the same to me.

4. do you think i should look for an OBDI or OBDII? i just can't really see which is going to be be better. i'm not going to be running a cat, and def gutting my manifold. i will probably have a friend weld me up a 2.5" whole way back from the mani or dp, actually. i mention that because i don't know how key cats/o2 sensors are and their differences in importance between obd1 and 2.

5. intake mani .. i have seen euro ones going for like 400 on here? difference? i put a 50mm(as opposed to 42mm) on my 16v, and it made HUGE DIFFERENCES, more than my TT cat back and headers combined. i'm a little hesitant of porting the intake mani because i don't want to F anything up, and i feel like it's actually not really the right way to get the best intake flow.

this is where you can tell i've never really "built" an engine before:

6. i'm getting 268's... should i not get mk4 lifters?

7. valve upgrades?

8. is it worth going for 2.9/3.0? what else needs to be done to the block to fit 83.5mm pistons? i have a friend who knows a machinist, if he can, he'll probably be doing my P+P'ing and if he can, he'll be doing any work to the block that i want done. recommendations? i think i'll be unfortunately sticking to the GIAC chip because i won't be able to afford standalone and i don't want to dive that far into MS or anything... it's a big hobby for me but i'm no mechanic. i'm assuming the GIAC chip would still run okay with a mildly built 12v.

9. what's the differences between LSD's?

10. ABA's came 3.94? that seems like it wouldn't be that big of an upgrade putting it to a VR. i think i want pretty short gears. at least in the mid range. probably a long 5th.

11. i'll buy the red pressure plate, but what about a clutch? i don't want some stupid ass aftermarket POS that's gonna seize itself up or wear out after 10k. also, i'm not gonna be racing the thing, though i'm sure i'll take it to the track at least once. the car is for spirited driving. i love corners.

12. what heavier flywheel than yours do you recommend? i agree, i don't think 7lb's is heavy enough for a daily. i'd like to aim around 11lbs. and i'm surprised you don't have any chatter!

13. place to get pulleys? do u recommend underdrive pulley? i've heard mixed things.

14. i'm staying 4 lug do to my stance, recommendations for axles? can i keep my stock ones? my friend has a 24v GLI with cams, chip and exhaust.. he blows his axles lots. even Raxles.

15. lastly... shouldn't upgrade fuel pump? even though it's not a super heavy build, i feel like it might limit my power a little? or at least put a lot of stress on the fuel pump and be blowing them? maybe not.


i can't believe how many questions i ended up having, but TIA for whatever you can answer!!! :thumbup: 

i don't really go on vortex much after i got banned without warning for foul language in my signature haha, so i'm going to whore... this is the stance i speak of, had to weld my subframe just to get the rears on without spacing them more:


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## 96BlKjEt (Oct 28, 2004)

so a gutted stock manifold for NA use is better then a Short Runner intake, with a 268 cam?


----------



## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

that's a good question, i would say the gutted would work better, simply because of the amount of area the air has to travel being larger with the gutted mani... since you want more velocity space for higher cams(typically). plenums are really more of an issue when you're doing ITB's, but I would think the gutted would work slightly better than the short runner


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## 96BlKjEt (Oct 28, 2004)

Tekron for president said:


> that's a good question, i would say the gutted would work better, simply because of the amount of area the air has to travel being larger with the gutted mani... since you want more velocity space for higher cams(typically). plenums are really more of an issue when you're doing ITB's, but I would think the gutted would work slightly better than the short runner


Thanx man, this is the first motor project I am doing so I want it to come out right the first time LOL specially since its going to be a daily driver, I already heard getting a header was garbage and just have the manifold ported alittle larger. Where do I go to have these things done at though?


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

2.5" vs. 3" dyno

first pg is updated


----------



## Tekron for president (Apr 24, 2008)

Tekron for president said:


> wooh! got through it. i'm rather dumb, and you are rather smart, so i'm gonna bug you with a lot of questions/observations...hopefully they'll benefit the thread, as i do think this is a good one.
> 
> 1. mounts for mk2? want something pretty stiff.
> 
> ...


can anyone help with these?


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## zachass o2 (May 6, 2009)

sorry if this is a dumb question but where does the 1.8t iat go????


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## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

When I ran mine (on the motor I got from Root Burr), we had it in the intake tube just after the air filter. The thought is that by putting it down in the actual intake stream and away from the hot motor, that you get *true* intake temps.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I thought that **** was just ziptied?

For the record, i'm not answering the temp sensor location ever again. Just think for like....10 seconds.


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## 96BlKjEt (Oct 28, 2004)

where can one find or get their manifold cloned to a 2.9? OBD2 if that helps.


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## OsoLow (Jul 31, 2007)

Awesome write up, just curious about the 1.8T IAT. The VR IAT threads in and from the looks of the 1.8T one it just seals in with an o-ring and a bolt. How are you guys installing it?


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## mwm2 (Oct 8, 2008)

MrMoon said:


> I don't really like any of the short shifters, I had the b&m which was ok but I think you end up shifting faster than the synchros can handle and you grind gears


This is the answer I've been looking for. I have one of those rsd short shifters from tmtuning and ever since I installed it, I grind in third gear alllll the time. I thought maybe if I changed the tranny fluid it would help a bit, which I'll still do, but I never thought of that.

I also thought I'd add a question. I was planning on getting 268 cams, but not schricks. 
How are say, the 268 tt cams, compared to 262 autotechs? If anyone has any experience with either of these.


----------



## sitton440 (Oct 20, 2010)

```

```
yea i was wondering what this extra pipe was for on the down pipe? lol

and looking to buy a test pipe i have a magnaflow exhause so id need the 2.5in?


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## VR6 MadMan (Feb 14, 2010)

I have a 24v and wanted to know if i did the Intake air temerature sensor swap if it would work. Any one know? opcorn:


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## MrMook (Dec 3, 2006)

I don't even own a VR, but I just read everything in the OP word for word. Thanks for a great write-up. Just the right amount of detail to get someone headed in the right direction. Also helps engine-noobs like me understand, even in general terms, how these engines work.
Many [root] beers for you sir! :beer::beer::beer:


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

If you guys like these types of threads, this is the one that gave me the idea to write this up.

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1676914&highlight=ls+vtec


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

OsoLow said:


> Never mind my post, i should have fliped back a page or two


My pioneering efforts were also zip tied.. whoops, still is.

Glad this thread is still kicking.


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

Opinion on TB coolant bypass?


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

When i dailied my car, i took it on and off for winter. Just a little barbed fitting from home depot and a couple clamps.


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## piran21 (Jul 28, 2004)

What's the part number of the 1.8t IAT sensor that should be used for an OBD2 Mk3 application?


----------



## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

piran21 said:


> What's the part number of the 1.8t IAT sensor that should be used for an OBD2 Mk3 application?



058 905 379



2003-2006 
AudiA4 1.8L Cabrio/Quattro AMB1996-2005AudiA4 1.8T Quattro Turbo AEB2002-2005AudiA4 1.8T Quattro Turbo AMB2000-2002AudiA4 1.8T Quattro Turbo AWM1997-2000AudiA4 1.8T Turbo 4 CYL 20V AEB2002-2005AudiA4 1.8T Turbo 4CYL 20V AMB2000AudiA4 1.8T Turbo 4CYL 20V ATW2000-2002AudiA4 1.8T Turbo 4CYL 20V AWM1998-1999AudiA4 2.8L Quattro V6 30V AHA 2000-2001AudiA4 2.8L Quattro V6 30V ATQ2000-2001AudiA4 2.8L V6 30V ATQ1998-1999AudiA4 2.8L V6 30V AHA2001-2004AudiA6 2.7 Allroad Quattro APB 2000-2004AudiA6 2.7 Quattro Turbo V6 APB1999-2004AudiA6 2.7L V6 Turbo APB1998-1999AudiA6 2.8L Quattro V6 30V AHA 2000-2001AudiA6 2.8L Quattro V6 30V ATQ 2000-2001AudiA6 2.8L V6 30V ATQ 2000-2001VolkswagenGolf 1.8T AWD1998-1999VolkswagenPassat 1.8L GLS Turbo AEB 2000-2001VolkswagenPassat 1.8T GLS FWD ATW2001-2005VolkswagenPassat 1.8T GLS FWD AWM2000VolkswagenPassat 2.8L 4 Motion AWD ATQ1998-2005VolkswagenPassat 2.8L GLS V6 AHA2000-2002AudiS4 Q Twin Turbo V6 APB2001-2005AudiTT Coupe/Roadste AWP2000-2003AudiTT Quattro AMU


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Made a few updates/changes/rewording. Mainly clutches, o2j shifter swap, and chips.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I agree with 'no puck' for the casual street car (I run a 6 on my 'street car'), however I've never felt any difference between sprung and unsprung centers as far as driveability and vibration.:thumbup: I'm going to give Comp a chance with the new motor.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Paul, your inbox is full. I flat shift my single. Try it and save $600


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I did with the clutchnet but not at the kind of revs I want to be making my 1-2, consistently.

Jersey overkill


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## piran21 (Jul 28, 2004)

058 905 379

Thanks!

Looks like they go for about $35...


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## vr6dan (Aug 21, 2010)

> 3. Throttle Body
> 
> 
> The oem throttle body is not overly problematic. The obd2 throttle body(96-99) is slightly larger than the obd1 throttle body. They cannot be simply swapped as the bolts are different sizes, and the TPS(throttle position sensor) is wired differently. I have read that the wires can simply be swapped around for the obd2 tps/tbody to be used on an obd1 car.


has anyone got anymore info on this? bolt holes i can deal with, but tps wiring would be nice and does it sort the idle? does the isv wiring hook up? ive deleted the isv atm but its a pig till it warms up.....


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

That's something i remember reading about awhile back. I'm honestly not sure of the specifics. I've never actually modified an obd1 car.

If you investigate, be sure to give this thread a shout on the specifics.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I ran the OBD2 TB on my car (on 95 OBD1 and standalone). I was using an OBD2 Schrick VGI at the time, which still has the port for the idle valve, so that wasn't effected at all. You need to use the full range tps on the OBD2 TB:

1 IAC +12v - not used
2 IAC ground (to ecu) - not used
3 Not used
4 Ecu to TPS +5v
5 TPS signal 0-5v to ecu
6 Not used
7 Tps ground
8 Not used

Pretty sure that's how I did it, but it was a few years ago.. check throttle angle with Vag-Com, if it's high at no throttle and low at high throttle swap 4/7.

The OBD1 computer won't like the OBD2's internal idle valve, so don't even try.


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Thanks Paul, copied to the first page.


----------



## rocketboy90 (Dec 22, 2009)

about the exhaust if i dont have money to buy a new exhaust can i take out the suitcase part before the muffler? will that make any performance gain?


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

You know, i should add something like that. I ran my stock exhaust with that resonator out for more than 2 years. It really sounded great, i loved it. 

What kind of HP we're talkin, idk, a little maybe. It's also like 15lbs though :thumbup:


----------



## rocketboy90 (Dec 22, 2009)

would is just make my car overall quicker around town as far as performance goes?


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Just expect to do it for the sound. I don't think you'd feel a difference.


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## Slam-Hog (Aug 12, 2010)

root beer said:


> The throttle body inlet is about as restrictive as restrictive gets. It transitions from the circular throttle body to the flat plenum area with a steep ramp, and multiple internal parts sticking out directly into airflow.....
> 
> The throttle body inlet should be modified. THE BIGGEST PROBLEM is one that I rarely see addressed, which is the corner nearest cylinder 6(driver’s side of the car). This is extremely restrictive to cylinder 6, and a bit of cylinder 5, and should be minimized, if not cut out, and modified in some way.


 









Not done yet. More pics to come. I think you'll like.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Lookin pretty trick :thumbup: 

Almost 30 thousand views in almost a year!


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Added to the clutch section:

Clutch safety switch bypass- Unplug your clutch safey switch, and jam a regular old fuse in there. If you upgrade your clutch to an aftermarket pressure plate, you should not be starting your car with the clutch depressed. With this much spring pressure, it is very stressful on your engine's thrust bearings, particularly when the car isn't running. Thrust bearings keep the crank centered in the engine, front to back. So this can lead to problems in the bottom of the motor....crank walk. So, you're going to have to remember to knock it out of gear from now on.


----------



## VR6JETTA4u1998 (Apr 13, 2009)

Looking for a little help.

So I am thinking about geting a chip for my VR6 in my MKIII Jetta. Everything is stock, but CAI and Header. Should I get the chip and what kind?


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Sure, get a chip. Get a giac.


----------



## VR6JETTA4u1998 (Apr 13, 2009)

root beer said:


> Sure, get a chip. Get a giac.


There is a dude selling a VR6 CPU and TT Chip in it for $125 used, I am not too fond of buying used stuff, but do you think it’s a good deal? I tried to do some research on the TT chip and could not find too much. He says it’s in good shape. .


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## PKstrategy (Oct 21, 2004)

i have a TT chip.
i like it.

GIAC is the preferred favorite and i plan on "upgrading" to it later.
Actually, I think I have a c2 sittin in a box somewhere for the build.


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## mk3pete (Jan 16, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I ran the OBD2 TB on my car (on 95 OBD1 and standalone). I was using an OBD2 Schrick VGI at the time, which still has the port for the idle valve, so that wasn't effected at all. You need to use the full range tps on the OBD2 TB:
> 
> 1 IAC +12v - not used
> 2 IAC ground (to ecu) - not used
> ...


im running this at the moment and seem to be having problems
i thought it was fine but after installing a wotbox i cant seem to get it to work properly
throttle at closed position reads 20 degrees and at wot it reads 60
i checked the voltages and at closed position .95 volts
and at wot it reads 2.90 volts
its a new throttle body
car still drives fine but im worried i might be down on power as the ecu would only be reading 60 percent at wot
iv tried and tested every which way the 3 wires can possibly go
i also have an idle air fault too


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## mk3pete (Jan 16, 2010)

ok correction 
angle is 15 degrees closed 
wot is 90 degrees
but when its closed it still reads .70 volts 
and at wot reads 4.3 volts
shouldnt it be 0 volts closed and 5 volts at wot?


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## veersixxx (Aug 3, 2006)

just spent maybe an hour reading through this whole post, again. there is so much great info to not be forgotten and the more i learn day by day encourages me to look back through here and make sure i didn't miss a beat. 

:beer: for rootbeer and needavr6 

last year's setup:

obd2 gti @ 2520 lbs over at the old feedmill in town w/o driver
stock 2.8 block 180k
mkiv head gasket
stock head and valves (no port or valve work)
stock intake mani's upper and lower (not ported at all)
stock tb
sai delete
a/c delete (kept p/s)
aptuning chip *custom tweek over my existing GIAC software
carbonio cai w/ 6" extension to get that k&n to reach behind the bumper grille
evolution intake spacer
eurospec 268s with stock springs & retainers
ngk cheap plugs :thumbup:
low temp t-stat only
stock exhaust mani's and downpipe (not ported at all)
test pipe 2.5 to 2.25" slip in style
magna flow 5" round tunnel muffler side exit exhaust *Loud
autotech lw steel flywheel w/ spec st. 2 clutch kit (50k miles with it and never a problem)
peloquin lsd w/ rebuilt stock gearbox
o2j shift conversion w/ tt short throw

best et was at englishtown, 14.21 @ 98 mph on staggered keskin's with 205/40r16 kumho ecsta asx street radials...

search youtube for "veersixxx"

dynoed @ aptuning in Lebanon, PA several times for a best of 177 whp 177 wtq on their dynojet, fair conditions..


**however i did end up selling this beautiful pig simply just wanting a cleaner mk3 gti, and this year i have everything above and more to shoot for my goal of breaking into the 13s on street radials and wishing/wanting over 100 mph in the quarter.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4612272-FEELER-98-gti-vr6-tastefully-modded-lebanon-pa

2011 setup: 

2.9L block
full set of UR pullies
P&P with 3 angle valve job (stock valve head)
schrick 268s
autotech hd valve springs and titanium retainers
oem lw lifters *mk4*
2.9 clone mani with tb mod, and hopefully cylinder 5-6 expansion
slightly ported lower intake mani
ported exhaust mani's and backwelded dp
1.8t iat relocate to cai
**GIAC, aptuning's chip (bought it back ), and c2 race file to try

i better be damn close to that 200 whp mark or i don't know what i'll do.


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## whalemingo (Jan 30, 2011)

You forgot the benefits of adding a MkIV intermediate shaft as well. It gives a you a little bit of timing and it worked well with my VR. .


----------



## mk3pete (Jan 16, 2010)

veersixxx said:


> just spent maybe an hour reading through this whole post, again. there is so much great info to not be forgotten and the more i learn day by day encourages me to look back through here and make sure i didn't miss a beat.
> 
> :beer: for rootbeer and needavr6
> 
> ...


tell us more on this aptuning software im interested!!!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

mk3pete said:


> ok correction
> angle is 15 degrees closed
> wot is 90 degrees
> but when its closed it still reads .70 volts
> ...


That should be fine, its the angle that matters.


----------



## veersixxx (Aug 3, 2006)

-Rootbeer
i really do need to try slicks. i've never gotten real serious about it before. but i got bored one day and started going back at it.

i haven't looked into any wheel and tire setups yet. i am staying with the 11.3s and 5x100

i hope to have it all together and down the track come spring show n go.

i would say south central Pennsylvania. 2 1/2 hrs from englishtown raceway, 2 hrs from cecil county raceway, and 45 min from maple grove raceway.


-MK3pete
as for the mystery APtuning chip.. i really don't know much about it. i had it in my last gti for 5 years and it was always great to me. i am not saying its the best or better than anything else. my gti had a giac in it, i just had AP give me a little more for what i was bolting on.


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## veersixxx (Aug 3, 2006)

Craig's 98 gti at June Bug Classic, Maple Grove Raceway, Mohnton, PA
** Not his best run. Craig's best was at Englishtown same day as mine, with a 14.0 @ 99 mph. car w/ out driver 2380 lbs.



My 98 gti at Spring Show n Go 2009, Englishtown, Old Bridge, NJ
** My best was not on film, but it was right before this one. 14.21 @ 98 mph on staggered Keskins. car w/ out driver 2520 lbs.



Now that i sold that gti and started completely fresh. This one is my jazz gti at Cecil County Raceway, MD
** poor video quality, filmed on an iphone while it was getting dark. 14.5 @ 96 mph on 16x9 keskins all four corners rockin 205/40r16 Nitto Neogens. car w/ out driver 2620 lbs full a/c and leather :laugh:




Jazz- bought it with 180k, GIAC chip, afe short ram intake, aftermarket clutch and flywheel- unknown, stock head/ block, stock manifolds in and out, 42 dd test pipe w/ 2.5" tt no resonators with borla, and i installed my eurospec 268s from the black gti.


----------



## Vinny Tree Mk3 (Mar 9, 2010)

Thread is phenomenal :thumbup: Forgive me if this is a stupid question.... 

Question: I know you said "Lighter is better. How much performance is it worth? I don’t know." 

With cams, giac, intake, etc. will neuspeed pulleys bring out some noticeable power?  

For 200 bucks on MJM they are kind of intriguing


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I'm really not sure. I have never *just* installed pulleys. They've always gone in as a part of a new motor/setup, so it's hard for me to say. I just run an aluminum crank pulley. Others are stock.


----------



## jungle (May 6, 2002)

That is the 1st I have heard of the rod bolts being a weak point....can they be swapped out (with new bearings) w/ the motor still in the car? My car is starting to get slight metalic rattle around the 2500rpm mark under load, i wonder if I got some slop developing down there.

Will relocating the IAT change the a/f ratio? If the ECU is reading cooler air, it will add more fuel right? Looking at my a/f ratio from my dyno, I don't need any more fuel, actually leaning it out would help some.

I did a clone intake manifold...actually I called it a 2.85l one because it was a hybrid between the 2.8 & 2.9. I had a theory about velocity vs. volume. The dynos were a whole summer apart so I can't say for sure, but I gained nothing doing the mod. Search the archives if you really want to see.

I have a Schrick intake manifold, I regret not buying one sooner. My car is primarily for auto-x so the mid-range torque is great.

I run DSR 256 cams, no need to upgrade springs, and there no loss of hp/tq anywhere on the curve, just gains. 

Seeing the 2.5" vs 3.0" debate, i am going to pull out the center resonator out of my TT 2.5"....it is cheaper than buying a new exhaust and might help the exhaust velocity.


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

jungle said:


> That is the 1st I have heard of the rod bolts being a weak point....can they be swapped out (with new bearings) w/ the motor still in the car? My car is starting to get slight metalic rattle around the 2500rpm mark under load, i wonder if I got some slop developing down there.
> 
> *No idea what your rattle is, but yes, they can be installed with the motor in the car. You don't necessarily need new bearings. I prefer to leave those alone if i can.*
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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## eodtech (Nov 1, 2009)

Is there a certain place in the intake you are putting the IAT? I have the sensor I just need to put it in when I get back home.


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

You can just ziptie the sensor to the rad support.


----------



## Slam-Hog (Aug 12, 2010)

Clutch safety switch bypass... is this done right at the pedal?


----------



## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

Slam-Hog said:


> Clutch safety switch bypass... is this done right at the pedal?



Unplug the connector going into the clutch switch, it's right behind, and above the pedal. It kind of sucks to reach, but not that bad. Throw the lowest amp mini-fuse you can find laying around in it, and you are good to go. :thumbup:


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Thanks, i'll revise that a bit to say where the switch is located.


----------



## Usualsuspekt (Dec 11, 2008)

root beer said:


> You can just ziptie the sensor to the rad support.


Really? Anywhere on there, or somewhere were it will get direct airflow?


----------



## Danza. (Apr 6, 2008)

anywhere really. it's just reading ambient air temp


----------



## PKstrategy (Oct 21, 2004)

Tim, not sure if this link was posted on this thread.
and OP of the following link, if you want it removed, just PM me.

*DIY: 1.8T IAT sensor install on VR6 manifold*


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Nice, i'll shoot him a message. Thanks y0!


----------



## PKstrategy (Oct 21, 2004)

Yeah it's an awesome write up.
I'm getting closer to starting man. haha

and no problem man :thumbup:


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Almost 42 thousand views. Not bad for a technical thread in the mk3 forum.


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## Slam-Hog (Aug 12, 2010)

JohnStamos said:


> Unplug the connector going into the clutch switch, it's right behind, and above the pedal. It kind of sucks to reach, but not that bad. Throw the lowest amp mini-fuse you can find laying around in it, and you are good to go. :thumbup:





root beer said:


> Thanks, i'll revise that a bit to say where the switch is located.


To add a little more info... my plug was green (97 jetta), and man was it a bitch to get to. Had the lower dash panel off.


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## EdDzZzZz (Mar 7, 2010)

ummm cant stop reading this ! its like the everyday prayer (A) anyway 

have a question:

i have a stock 2.8L engine.installed an IAT and a giac chip and recently baught a 268 cams.
was thinking of 

will a 2.9 intake manifold, a throttle body and the tps wiring work on my 2.8 ? 
or i just swap my 2.8 into a 2.9 ?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I ran a real abv 2.9 euro manny a bit never dynoed it straight vs the srocker but there was no et in it at all.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

What Tim said. I would do a bigger tb and intake on a clone then anything on a real 2.9 intake. I had a good amount more top end ([email protected]) with a gutted schrick and obd2 tb vs stock 2.8 manny and obd1 tb. Fwiw.


----------



## curcor (Mar 11, 2010)

*Oil 20-50w?*

Does that applies even if you live in a place where temps going above 30 degrees Celsius?


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

It does not get that hot where i live regularly. 

However, I have run my car on 120+ degree tracks with 5w30 and a 180k mile block spinning to 7200. So draw whatever connection that makes sense to you from that.


----------



## Englishmk3 (Sep 17, 2010)

Going to read this tonight all the way through

But, does anyone know if there are advantages of using a mk4 vr6 12v inlet and TB over the mk3 Vr6 OBD2?

We dont get 12v mk4 vrs over in the UK


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Englishmk3 said:


> But, does anyone know if there are advantages of using a mk4 vr6 12v inlet and TB over the mk3 Vr6 OBD2?


How do you intend to do that given that the Mk4 TB will not work with a cable?


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## themagellan (Mar 30, 2007)

rootbeer this thread is why I still come visit the mk3 forums. Keep it up!:beer:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> How do you intend to do that given that the Mk4 TB will not work with a cable?


You can use the manifold with the mk3 OBD2 tb, it bolts right on. You'll still need a vacuum reservoir, and changeover solenoid and controller though.

For oil I always used 10w30 or 0w30 and ran at the bottom of the dipstick mark for reduced windage.


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## Slam-Hog (Aug 12, 2010)

^ I don't get why people use 0,5, or 10w-30. Its not recomended anywhere in the owners manual. Someone clue me in please.


----------



## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

Slam-Hog said:


> ^ I don't get why people use 0,5, or 10w-30. Its not recomended anywhere in the owners manual. Someone clue me in please.



Throw your owners manual in the trash, and leave the Mk3 forum if you want correct info on oil, or stay in this thread. 

Cliffs notes, because I have to try an explain this at least once a week, and I'm sick of typing it:

30grade oil provides 10psi per 1000 rpm, in almost every VR I have come across, at running oil temp. (200-220) This is what dictates what grade oil you need, NOT what some paper says.

0w is still WAY too thick for ANY engine made, at cold start. But it is the best we can do currently. 5W is WAY too thick, 10W is WAY WAY too thick, and 20W is useless.


bobistheoilguy.com Read through every chapter (starting at the bottom of the home page), then read it again. You will understand.



Now go post an oil thread in the Mk3 forum, and watch everyone tell you to run 20W50. :screwy:


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## Englishmk3 (Sep 17, 2010)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> How do you intend to do that given that the Mk4 TB will not work with a cable?


Didn't know they weren't cable. 

We don't get them in the UK in a mk4 so I have no idea about them!

What's the pros and cons of using the manifold from the mk4?

Is it a lot of work?


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Pro- it looks different

Con- it doesn't make power

Yep, and a fix for an oil pressure problem is NOT just putting 20w50 in the damn thing.


----------



## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Englishmk3 said:


> Going to read this tonight all the way through
> 
> But, does anyone know if there are advantages of using a *mk4 vr6 12v inlet and TB* over the mk3 Vr6 OBD2?





need_a_VR6 said:


> You can use the manifold with the mk3 OBD2 tb, it bolts right on. You'll still need a vacuum reservoir, and changeover solenoid and controller though.
> 
> .


Yep Paul, you are correct but my interpretation is that he is planning on using the inlet AND throttle body. Maybe I am reading incorrectly.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The mk4 manifold when used with the changeover flapper does make a
ton of sub 4k torque. Its just that yhe folks that contributed to the info here all launch and shift above that so its really not discussed. The manifold might be worth a few up top due to its design, but it hasn't been proven. Fwiw I ran my schrick vgi and r32 without the changeover.


----------



## StylinVR6 (Jan 21, 2008)

Has anyone had any experience with e85 on a stock motor or one with basic bolt ons?


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

There's really no point to running E85 unless you are looking to make big power with boost. That's where E85 shines.


----------



## StylinVR6 (Jan 21, 2008)

Thought by the fact that e85 is a higher octane it may make some power. 

BWP is local to me and they have a R32 they have a e85 tune on and from what i hear its a fairly stock motor. They saw some pretty results from it.


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

e85 creates a great opportunity for making power. Unfortunately, there isn't much of a way to run it correctly with stock engine management. Standalone, go for it, but that's not relatively inexpensive.


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

You'll see results from it, no doubt, but not like a boosted motor. Factor in that you have to buy a fuel pump, injectors, convert to some sort of standalone, and then have it tuned..... gains made with a relatively small N/A motor aren't going to be worth your money or time.


----------



## StylinVR6 (Jan 21, 2008)

UM makes e85 software and BWP makes a conversion kit. Not sure if fuel lines are needed. 
$575 doesnt seem to bad if the gains are noticeable. Im not tryin to start a argument or anything, just exploring possibilities 
http://bwperformance.com/products/volkswagen/vw-mk3-12v-vr6-flex-fuel-conversion-kit


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

djsheijkdfj said:


> You'll see results from it, no doubt, but not like a boosted motor. Factor in that you have to buy a fuel pump, injectors, convert to some sort of standalone, and then have it tuned..... gains made with a relatively small N/A motor aren't going to be worth your money or time.



You can run E85 on the stock pump and just up the FP to increase flow if you run out of injector. Our injectors leave us with a good bit of headroom. A 4bar FPR gives even more headroom. for $5 from a junkyard.

And the OBD1 ECU has been cracked, and there are .bin files of it online. With that, and Tunerpro, you have a decent starting point. Add a wideband, and a scanner to monitor knock, and go out and do some long 3rd/4th gear pulls, and set it up.

Some one really needs to publicly crack a OBD2 ECU, and set up a better tuning interface. There are cars with MUCH less support and a MUCH smaller following then ours, and they have 
TONS more available tuning wise. It's insane how far behind we are.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I wouldn't try and run E85 without 30lb injectors and a booster pump, at minimum. 

OBD2 can be figured out, that's really not the issue. It's the 16bit eprom and the lack of INEXPENSIVE emulators for it. Same reason all the Hondas go to OBD1, simple, cheap, easy.


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## vibrancyy (Dec 16, 2010)

i wasnt going to post, but then i was like wth. A local MD Dubber doing work! :thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## FLATBLACKMK2 (Oct 10, 2003)

watched.......:beer::thumbup:


----------



## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

I would use a 2003+ Ford coilpack instead of the MSD setup a lot cleaner/stock looking and you dont need to modify the stock sparkplug wires and you can still gap the plugs at .036...and its $30-56 from used to new opcorn:


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I'm actually going to be wiring a ford coilpack in with my haltech ecu.


----------



## weakshht (Feb 21, 2010)

bumping this cause its the best mother ****in thread on the vortex


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

As much as I live the stock pack, that Ford one is a good choice.


----------



## dr.greenthumb (Jul 28, 2009)

:thumbup:

-Sent from your moms house using her laptop-


----------



## piran21 (Jul 28, 2004)

What's the ideal spark plug gap for NGK BKR5E (single electrode) plugs?


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I've never had a problem with stock gap. Maybe gone a little bit bigger. .028? i can never remember.


----------



## piran21 (Jul 28, 2004)

root beer said:


> I've never had a problem with stock gap. Maybe gone a little bit bigger. .028? i can never remember.


I have the Ford coilpack as well. I gapped them at 0.028". I have the Mk4 HG. It started and runs fine. Old BKR5EUP were black!


----------



## Grandpa Vrtx (Mar 16, 2006)

This needs to be a sticky to keep it up front. Yhe most useful posting EVER on Vortex!!!!


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Haha, thank you.


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Updated with a short 3rd gear addition.

Not sure if i'll regret it or not, haha. I'm used to hogging the good gears for myself.


----------



## catalina2.o (Oct 27, 2008)

ok so i spun a bearing this week all rod bearings just started slipping when i caught the problem so crank is fine rods are fine, the reason for all this madness to happen in the first place was i was really low on oil on a 100 degree day doing a pull to 7k in 3rd gear now i no for a fact i had abour 65ish psi of oil pressure now, will mymain crank bearings be ok since the have Oil Squirters or might those be toast as well


----------



## 92jetta9a (Apr 3, 2007)

root beer said:


> Updated with a short 3rd gear addition.
> 
> Not sure if i'll regret it or not, haha. I'm used to hogging the good gears for myself.


Good update but finding just the gears could prove to be difficult.


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

It takes a little hustle.


----------



## Slam-Hog (Aug 12, 2010)

Proper.


----------



## L. Fopps (Oct 17, 2006)

Slam-Hog said:


> Proper.


x2


----------



## Slam-Hog (Aug 12, 2010)

I like how you took the whole corner off there and left that tab. I didn't even think of that. Did you dyno it?


----------



## L. Fopps (Oct 17, 2006)

Its not on the car yet. Id like to dyno it but havent found a shop near by yet. I may even shave that tab off I haven't decided yet.


----------



## Slam-Hog (Aug 12, 2010)

I've had mine on the car. Didn't notice any difference. It sounded different, but not screaming loud like everyone claims.

I'm assuming you copied that off the one you saw in my thread?

Just sent my buddy an email about getting on the dyno next week. We will see if we are wasting our time or not.


----------



## L. Fopps (Oct 17, 2006)

Didn't realize its supposed to make it louder im gonna paint and heavy polish it before it goes on so I've still got some time. If I wind up finding a place to dyno Ill post any results but most likely im going to wait till im further down the road in the build.


----------



## Slam-Hog (Aug 12, 2010)

Red is stock manifold, blue is a 2.9 clone. Dyno runs done back to back within an hour of eachother.

Lets end the debate.










Edit: I'm going to add that this clone was done overkill compared to the others that i've seen out there. See the pics a few posts up. Theres a thread on it, search ultimate 2.9 clone build.


----------



## jungle (May 6, 2002)

JohnStamos said:


> You can run E85 on the stock pump and just up the FP to increase flow if you run out of injector. Our injectors leave us with a good bit of headroom. A 4bar FPR gives even more headroom. for $5 from a junkyard.
> 
> And the OBD1 ECU has been cracked, and there are .bin files of it online. With that, and Tunerpro, you have a decent starting point. Add a wideband, and a scanner to monitor knock, and go out and do some long 3rd/4th gear pulls, and set it up.
> 
> ...


I am not so sure that the oem VR injectors can handle much more....please see my post from way back when and chime in...

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...expensive-reliable-powerful-Vr6.&goto=newpost

slam-hog: thanks for the back to back post dyno! :thumbup: I ran my own version of a clone manifold, a hybrid between the oem 2.8 & the 2.9....i called it a 2.85 (search for it); my dyno showed it didn't do squat...but they were a year apart soo...it could just be statistical noise.

I wish a moderator would just sticky this post and remove the "bumping" posts to make this thread cleaner & easier to read.


----------



## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

jungle said:


> I am not so sure that the oem VR injectors can handle much more....please see my post from way back when and chime in...



Bump them up to 4bar, or even 5bar and they are plenty big enough. It's simple math.


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

You should really change your lines and fuel pump hoses inside your tank if you're wanting to try e85. Alcohol doesn't like rubber much.


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

jungle said:


> I wish a moderator would just sticky this post and remove the "bumping" posts to make this thread cleaner & easier to read.


Seriously. 4 Pages of love, gone!

I don't think it should be stickied though.


----------



## ..preto.. (Sep 15, 2007)

:thumbup:


----------



## crackershack99 (Jan 20, 2006)

geat info thank you


----------



## noodlesdefyyou (Jun 18, 2011)

I wish I lived near someone that could help me pull apart my engine 

most of this stuff is stuff I want to do, but I don't trust myself enough to poke at it with no experience.

On a side note, I live maybe 45 minutes from Summit Racing.


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Don't be afraid. Start small on your car. Manifolds, alternator, etc. Or you can just go play in junkyards, or buy a car for a couple hundred bones if you want to get your feet wet. 

Take your time, that's all. Look at details, and read up first.


----------



## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

Swapping to a 1.47 3rd is by far the most noticeable thing I have done to date. Made a HUGE difference.

I no longer cringe before shifting into 3rd. :laugh:


----------



## skidplate (May 4, 2004)

That's definitely on the 'to do' list when I build the tranny in my car. Debating on what R&P to run. I was thinking that 3.94 might kill my gas mileage.


----------



## noodlesdefyyou (Jun 18, 2011)

root beer said:


> Don't be afraid. Start small on your car. Manifolds, alternator, etc. Or you can just go play in junkyards, or buy a car for a couple hundred bones if you want to get your feet wet.
> 
> Take your time, that's all. Look at details, and read up first.


I've been considering finding a 'junked' engine and pulling it apart, but I also need my money to fix up my current. Maybe I'll hold off on the suspension and buy one. Just need to find a place to pull it apart...


----------



## GREGGO! (Jan 14, 2007)

i really :heart: this thread


----------



## VRsiiicks (Aug 15, 2003)

AWESOME thread:beer:

Thanks for sharing your time and expertise:thumbup:


----------



## VRsiiicks (Aug 15, 2003)

When planning these mods....are there some that don't work well together (ie., certain cams with certain mani, certain gearing, etc.)

Then (I know this is an NA thread), but do some of these mods work well as a prerequisite to bolting on a charger?


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

For f.i., the durability parts apply.(arp's, valvesprings, motor mounts, trans brace, clutch, diff) Not so much for most of the airflow mods however.

F.i. money needs to be spent on the turbo kit primarily. Quality management, turbo, exhaust manifold, intake manifold, quality piping, 3" exhaust(at least), intercooling, injectors, fuel pump and lines, wastegate, bov. 

Then, have enough money in your reserves to replace any 2 things on the car at any time :laugh:


----------



## VRsiiicks (Aug 15, 2003)

> Then, have enough money in your reserves to replace any 2 things on the car at any time :laugh:


HAHA!! I've actually never been in a booster VR (charged or turbo). I've always been an NA kind of dude. Maximize whats already there so-to-speak.

Thanks again for the money thread:thumbup:


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

10.30's on a stock block. 




It takes a K series honda to say that. 

The motor in the blue car cost $150 from a junkyard passat. I cleaned it with a screwdriver 2 summers ago, and it just popped at worthlessfest, i mean waterfest. We need some more people to get the hint!


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## 4690 (Oct 27, 2007)

tim you're an awesome wealth of info. glad you are on here dude :beer:


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Thanks! Brandon, right? Haven't seen you around in a min!


----------



## Danza. (Apr 6, 2008)

How much hp from removing all freeze plugs from the block?


----------



## L. Fopps (Oct 17, 2006)

Tim do you happen to have a picture of where you ran the 1.8t IAT?


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## Danza. (Apr 6, 2008)

Not work safe ones.

(it doesn't matter, his was run across the front of the rad support down near where the CAI filter was)


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

edit :laugh:


----------



## noodlesdefyyou (Jun 18, 2011)

im heading out to reading monday, i should keep on heading out to maryland and convince root beer to help me inspect my car :laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## 4690 (Oct 27, 2007)

root beer said:


> Thanks! Brandon, right? Haven't seen you around in a min!


:thumbup: yes sir! how's things been man?


----------



## s.l.c. (Aug 4, 2008)

Are these the actual weights for the mk3's?

Golf=2511 

four door=2577 

Jetta=2647


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I'm not sure of exact weights. Trim level makes weights vary considerably, so those numbers dont really speak for all golfs/jetta. 

Mine weighs under 2k


----------



## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

A stockish GLX, leather, ect is very close to 3k. With driver 3k would be normal.

Vr6 GTI's are around 2800~ if I remember right.


----------



## s.l.c. (Aug 4, 2008)

Would obd2 make a difference in performance verses obd1?


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

No. I just prefer obd2 for chipping options, and for the fact that it'll tell you what's wrong.


----------



## s.l.c. (Aug 4, 2008)

root beer said:


> No. I just prefer obd2 for chipping options, and for the fact that it'll tell you what's wrong.


By chipping options, you mean there's more suppliers Or more upgradeable chips?


----------



## StylinVR6 (Jan 21, 2008)

JohnStamos said:


> Vr6 GTI's are around 2800~ if I remember right.


My VR GTI weighs 2831 with me in it and a roof rack, AC/SAI delete. Driver weight is 140.


----------



## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

StylinVR6 said:


> My VR GTI weighs 2831 with me in it and a roof rack, AC/SAI delete. Driver weight is 140.



According to your sig, you also have a MUCH lighter exhaust, MUCH lighter "header", almost 10lbs out of the flywheel, lighter suspension ect. :thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## miseryindeath (Mar 12, 2009)

:wave:

I have a question.

I'm about to swap a VR into my '97 Golf K2 Edition. It has somewhere in the neighborhood of 150k on it. I've torn into it and put in a Mk4 head gasket, all new hardware (of course), did the timing chains with all new stuff in there, replaced every other gasket. New OEM clutch, flywheel, and pressure plate. Brand new belt tensioner and belt. Deleted power steering, AC, and SAI is plugged with the 42DD plug. Put a billet wrinkle black finished crackpipe, all new thermostat housing with gaskets and thermostat, Mk4 plug wires with brand new plugs, BFI Stage 1 PEM, and the current 2.25" cat back system that's attached to my 2.0.

My future mods are cams (which I'll be asking about), upgrading to a 3" exhaust, 2.9L intake manifold, Ford coilpack mod, possibly a custom intake since there really isn't much made for the Mk3 that actually helps it, and upgrading to the Stage 2 PEM from BFI.

All that is basically to show I have all the maintenance up to par (I do believe) on the VR. I'd like to get some 268 cams. I know in the OP it says Shrick are the best. But what's the closest ones to that? Sorry if it's been answered before. I read this entire thread once before but can't remember and I've been searching tonight and just figured I would ask. On MJM I see Techtonics 268s and Eurosport 268s. Which are the "2nd best" I guess you could say.

Also, MJM says you don't need to upgrade your lifters for the TT ones, but doesn't mention anything about lifters for the Eurospec ones (unless I'm blind, which is possible right now). Should they be upgraded or would they be okay?

Thanks for any responses to this.


----------



## StylinVR6 (Jan 21, 2008)

JohnStamos said:


> According to your sig, you also have a MUCH lighter exhaust, MUCH lighter "header", almost 10lbs out of the flywheel, lighter suspension ect. :thumbup::thumbup:


Not exactly sure on what ur trying to point out. I was just replying to his post showing he was pretty close on his guess. That weight was with a full tank and me in it. He said just the car was 2800lbs ish. Pretty sure my weight vs wat ive removed is a wash. Coils vs stock suspension, i would say the coils weigh more. 

O i had my trey in the back removed too, better take off another pound. Emblems are deleted too :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

StylinVR6 said:


> Not exactly sure on what ur trying to point out. I was just replying to his post showing he was pretty close on his guess. That weight was with a full tank and me in it. He said just the car was 2800lbs ish. Pretty sure my weight vs wat ive removed is a wash. Coils vs stock suspension, i would say the coils weigh more.



I was doing the same. Check to see who posted it in the first place. 

He is "me" :laugh:


----------



## StylinVR6 (Jan 21, 2008)

JohnStamos said:


> I was doing the same. Check to see who posted it in the first place.
> 
> He is "me" :laugh:


Dang, he is you... u got me, or he got me... u/he gets the point. My bad

On a side note, anyone swapped from leather to cloth and the weight differences between?


----------



## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

StylinVR6 said:


> Dang, he is you... u got me, or he got me... u/he gets the point. My bad
> 
> On a side note, anyone swapped from leather to cloth and the weight differences between?



I have both in the Garage, I'll check tomorrow. :thumbup:


----------



## VWforMe2 (Aug 12, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> For the 1.8T IAT I just used a zip tie through the mounting hole and hooked it to something near my filter (outside the engine bay). I then unplugged the stocker and extended the wires to reach.


Hey,

I understand that you have to extend the wires. I planned on just cutting the wires a little ways back from the plug and using butt connectors to connect the "extension wires" to either end of the harness wires.

Is this right? How did you do it? What type of wire did you use? Do you have a DIY on it somewhere and I just didn't look hard enought?

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## mavicman (Nov 13, 2000)

VWforMe2 said:


> Hey,
> 
> I understand that you have to extend the wires. I planned on just cutting the wires a little ways back from the plug and using butt connectors to connect the "extension wires" to either end of the harness wires.
> 
> ...


You could also use the stock location. Enlarge the hole for the original IAT then drill and tap a smaller hole for the screw. There is a DIY here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5242239-DIY-1.8T-IAT-sensor-install-on-VR6-manifold. 
There is another write up on the Corrado Club of Cananda site: http://www.corrado-club.ca/forum/vi...ghlight=&sid=265ea8c99bd01869b43a71f9aa141611
Then you wouldn't need to cut into the original harness. This is my plan when I get around to it. You'll also need an upper intake gasket since you'll want to remove the intake for this procedure.


----------



## VWforMe2 (Aug 12, 2009)

mavicman said:


> You could also use the stock location. Enlarge the hole for the original IAT then drill and tap a smaller hole for the screw. There is a DIY here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5242239-DIY-1.8T-IAT-sensor-install-on-VR6-manifold.
> There is another write up on the Corrado Club of Cananda site: http://www.corrado-club.ca/forum/vi...ghlight=&sid=265ea8c99bd01869b43a71f9aa141611
> Then you wouldn't need to cut into the original harness. This is my plan when I get around to it. You'll also need an upper intake gasket since you'll want to remove the intake for this procedure.


As I was reading through this thread someone said they did it that way. There were a few people that said it would still end up getting heat soaked if you kept it in the stock location. Which would mean it would not give you the same gains.

Thanks for the input though :thumbup: and good luck with however you decide to do it:beer:


----------



## PKstrategy (Oct 21, 2004)

not sure if this was answered/covered but can any of the name brand LSD's be used with our stock clutches and say a lightened flywheel?

Or does it make more sense to swap out for new clutch and flywheel AND LSD.

Though I understand LSD's aren't necessary, it's one of those things I'm considering that "while i'm in there..." type of deal.

:thumbup:


----------



## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

I would prioritize on the clutch & flywheel first as wheel spin (LSD-counteractive measure) will not be an issue if you are not even transfering power from the crank to your wheels effectively. No clutch grab, no wheelspin... LSD not needed.

As for compatibility the LSD will function with any clutch.


----------



## PKstrategy (Oct 21, 2004)

So if I understand correctly, the LSD will be kinda useless without swapping clutch and flywheel first? (or at the same time)


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

If you have the trans out to do clutch/flywheel, and the funds to put an LSD in, you might as well go ahead. It would require taking the trans out again to do it later.


----------



## PKstrategy (Oct 21, 2004)

Agreed.
But just trying to gt clarity on whether you need both or can do just one.
(one being either LSD or clutch & flywheel)
But from what I take, clutch & flywheel is necessary before even considering an LSD.


----------



## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

PKstrategy said:


> But from what I take, clutch & flywheel is necessary before even considering an LSD.


That is my vote. I ran without an LSD for yrs because in my opinion the the power output did not warrant an LSD. If you have the budget though go for all three as you already have the tranny off.

PS - you don't need to go crazy with your clutch selection either. A lot of times we go overboard with clutch selection (eg throwing a 6 puck at your car because you can afford it).


----------



## PKstrategy (Oct 21, 2004)

^ and that's what I don't want to do.
I definitely don't have funds beyond the ceiling to throw whatever at the car.

I want what works, but works well. 

Stock clutch is my option and a lw flywheel, say an Autotech 10lb (since it's a daily)

I guess, if funds are right, I could then opt for an LSD - but based on what a couple of you are saying, not worth it/necessary.


----------



## Danza. (Apr 6, 2008)

Sorry guys, Tim won't update the thread anymore.

After this weekend he realized that 30v motors are in every way superior to 12v/24v


----------



## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

Stock these cars have enough power that an LSD makes them an entire other animal. 1st is useless, and 1st and second are useless with any sort of steering input. 3rd is useless with high steering input.

No need to use anything but the Stock clutch if staying N/A. Unless you plan on launching on slicks off the limiter hundreds of times. Then Kevlar full faced at the max. Stepping up to a pressure plate with reinforced straps is never a bad idea though.


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Haha, yea, i'm with 2.7's for life now.

I've broken alot of pressure plates 

I'm with mr. stamos on the Full face kevlar. I like those.


----------



## Danny P. (Jul 29, 2009)

everytime i read this thread it makes me wanna spend insane amounts of money on the ride


----------



## PKstrategy (Oct 21, 2004)

JohnStamos said:


> Then Kevlar full faced at the max. Stepping up to a pressure plate with reinforced straps is never a bad idea though.


What language is this breh? 

please enlighten.

my thoughts are that using a LSD are sort've pointless if i'm not planning on changing out the stock clutch. I _am _leaning toward a lightened flywheel though. 

Someone else on this thread suggests using a Clutchnet setup and call it a day.

*Tim, if this is beginning to clutter, we can move it to PM's.


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Nahhhhh, all good discussion.

Straps are what connects the actual plate portion of the plate to the outer case. They're basically 3" strips of steel, rounded off at the ends with holes in the ends. Rivets connect them to the plate. This is the first thing that breaks.

Some aftermarket companies stack a bunch of thin straps, some use big beefy ones. Some use grade 10 bolts instead of rivets, and other use big ****in rivets.

I'll take pics if i can find some busted **** around...

I think Competition clutch actually has the best single plate clutch for us right now. The parts they use are far superior to comparable clutches, very few oem parts reused. I sat it next to a clutchmasters stg 3, and the difference was really obvious. Really really big rivets, big beefy straps, non oem plate, non oem fingers. I really like my stg3/kevlar segmented. The ONLY thing about these, is mine had a counter weight that made bellhousing contact. Nothing a grinder couldn't take care of really quick, but they didn't seem interested in the info i emailed them with.

Probably going to a solid 6 puck this fall, but that's just because i'm an *******. The days of Clutchnet making good clutches sadly seem to have passed. 

Now go vomit after you price this crap.


----------



## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

root beer said:


> Nahhhhh, all good discussion.
> 
> The days of Clutchnet making good clutches sadly seem to have passed.



Last one I bought was at the beginning of the yr, what exactly have they changed in the build process making their clutches go to crap?


----------



## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

I still like Clutchnets disc's, but won't go near one of their plates.


I run a Clutchnet, unsprung, 4 puck, with a stock plate, with 400ft/lbs tq. Best $100 clutch I ever ran. :laugh: You couldn't pay me to put one of their pressure plates in any of my cars though.


----------



## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Agreed, have not had any issues with their discs either. :thumbup:


----------



## PKstrategy (Oct 21, 2004)

JohnStamos said:


> I still like Clutchnets disc's, but won't go near one of their plates.
> 
> 
> I run a *Clutchnet, unsprung, 4 puck,* with a stock plate, with 400ft/lbs tq. Best $100 clutch I ever ran. :laugh: You couldn't pay me to put one of their pressure plates in any of my cars though.


I can't find this on their site.
Here

They have organic and kevlar and bla bla


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

PKstrategy said:


> I can't find this on their site.
> Here
> 
> They have organic and kevlar and bla bla


Here you go

http://clutchnet.com/clutches/detail/10175-clutch-discs/flypage.pbv.v2/27494-4bk13361?sef=hcfp

Don't run this on the street unless you want to be miserable. 4 pucks by nature are harsh, and the unsprung hub will magnify it 10 fold.


For an aggressive street disc, I wouldn't do anything other than a full faced, sprung hub - material choice is up to you. That's just me though, my Mustang has a Spec stage 3 setup and I cannot stand to drive it in town due to the clutch.


----------



## PKstrategy (Oct 21, 2004)

yeah that link brings me to their main page listing.
but ok, that is good to know.
i do need this to be streetable moreso than draggable haha :laugh:


----------



## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

PKstrategy said:


> yeah that link brings me to their main page listing.
> but ok, that is good to know.
> i do need this to be streetable moreso than draggable haha :laugh:



Just run a stock replacement SACH's clutch, it will hold whatever you can throw at it in a NA street car.


You lose alot of the "fun" factor in a car when you go to a puck style clutch. If you make a TON of power, it is worth it, if not, it is only a pain, and you'll eat through flywheels, pressure plates every other year.


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> Last one I bought was at the beginning of the yr, what exactly have they changed in the build process making their clutches go to crap?


I think somebody left. Igor maybe? He was the man to deal with at one time.

They break now....and they didn't before. Any customer service went off a cliff. I've got a buddy who put 1/2 a pass on a new one, broke it(after having his old one for 5 years or so), and they basically told him to eat it after he sent it back to them.  He ended up with a CC twin disk that seems to work really well.

I haven't seen the actual build differences, but i've got an old "raceshop" clutchnet plate as my spare. Raceshop Joe Horcrux. :wave:


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

That sucks as their earlier stuff was reliable... actually still holding up for me. Thanks for the info.


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## cabriosnap (Apr 24, 2009)

question on boreing and upping piston size. going from 80MM to 83MM ups the block to a 3.0 if i read this right...and the 24v's use a 82mm piston?

so if you bore over and use the 82mm pistons, does this up my liter to a 2.9 rather then 2.8? does it keep the same comp ratio? higher? lower?

just kinda curious, trying to keep things in mind while laying out my boost build

:beer:


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## vr_ben (Aug 5, 2010)

Whats involved in changing the R&P? Engine stuff I can do, but have never touched a tranny. Having the shorter gears would make the car so much faster around town compared to adding even more power.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Stock bore is 81mm, 83.5 is the smallest overbore that gets you a 'round-up' 3L. 2.8 24v is also 81mm but the pistons are a totally different design, don't even think about using them.

R&P isn't the easiest thing to swap out and the 'while you're in there's' get pretty big as you have to take the gearstack off the pinion shaft, check all the bearings, clearances, set diff pre-load, etc.


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## cabriosnap (Apr 24, 2009)

"Pistons-A bigger, higher compression piston will always make more power. Forged piston sets for these motors are usually 7-800 dollar range before the required machine work. Stock bore is 81mm, and 83.5mm can be had using a stock head gasket, bringing it out to a meaty 3.0l. Oem cast 2.9l vw pistons are also available at 82mm"


so what your saying is, this is a false statement?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

No we said the same thing in different ways. 83mm is 2932cc which is no 3L no matter how you cut it. 83.5 is 2967cc which is a "barely" 3L. R32 crank and 84mm gets you 3.2L ... its just money!


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## dceola (Jun 22, 2010)

I love all of the great info to boost the power in the VR, however what does all of this do for fuel mileage? Is it any improvement (or does it worsen?)


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

My 83mm, 207whp motor got 29mpg average going to school everyday with fairly aggressive driving and a 3.68.


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## dceola (Jun 22, 2010)

root beer said:


> My 83mm, 207whp motor got 29mpg average going to school everyday with fairly aggressive driving and a 3.68.


dude that's better than my ABA currently gets (haven't spent time trying to figure out why yet...)!

So lets say I took the suggestions in this thread, ported the exhaust mani / downpipe, lower intake mani, 2.9 clone, and stock airbox or possibly CAI style intake, with something like a 262 cam, and probably no modifications to the head itself - would you think that in your semi-expert opinion I could expect to see mileage close to that (or possibly slightly better given a lot of highway driving)?

I love the power of the VR over the ABA but I personally am more concerned with a better fuel mileage to power ratio. To me, theres no point in having all kinds of mods to get huge power when your fuel mileage is ****. Obviously there's always a tradeoff, but hopefully there's some sweet spot that will give a good amount of both


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I can't say for sure what made what difference really. But yea, efficiency's going to take some effect on both mileage and power.


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## Danza. (Apr 6, 2008)

I always got ~30 mpg with my 2L car, and 28-29 with my VR car.

Biggest difference was driving like a jackass for a full tank with a 2L has little effect, driving like a jackass in a VR and your mpg will obviously plummet.

That's all true until the car was supercharged and then got 12-14 mpg all the time lol


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## dceola (Jun 22, 2010)

Danza. said:


> I always got ~30 mpg with my 2L car, and 28-29 with my VR car.
> 
> Biggest difference was driving like a jackass for a full tank with a 2L has little effect, driving like a jackass in a VR and your mpg will obviously plummet.
> 
> That's all true until the car was supercharged and then got 12-14 mpg all the time lol


sounds like a great reason to stay NA, lol


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

Getting 25-26 MPG city/highway consistently with my 2.9/6262 VR. :thumbup:


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

*FV-QR*

Vr's get good mileage when driven right. I have no problem getting 28~mpg mixed and 32+ highway when driving it mild. 

The problem is with the TQ curve of the Vr, if you roll into the throttle in everygear til you get up to speed, you are going to EAT gas. And the power is addictive, since you can get up to speed in no time at all, very smoothly, and not feel like you are accelerating that hard, and get 20mpg or less. 



If you are one of the people that barely eek out 30mpg in a o2o/aba, then you are going to struggle to get more then 20 in a Vr. I got 38 Average when mine was a ABA, and that was driving normal, not trying to eek out every mile. They are capable of more.


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## dceola (Jun 22, 2010)

i drive my aba conservatively, even on full highway trips cruising at like 70mph, it then averages about 27mpg.. the maintenance is up on it; i just haven't taken my time to poke around and see if i can find something causing the crappy mileage. don't really want to when it will be a VR this year anyways


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## fatboyvw (Sep 27, 2009)

djsheijkdfj said:


> Getting 25-26 MPG city/highway consistently with my 2.9/6262 VR. :thumbup:


x2


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## passatvr607 (Nov 11, 2007)

...


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

hay


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## 96BlKjEt (Oct 28, 2004)

bump for the guru...got and still maken my VR run as it should :beer::beer::beer:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I got an average of 32mpg to MIR and back with 4.24s and a .755 5th. Too bad second wouldn't work that day.


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## JASENR (Dec 16, 2008)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I got an average of 32mpg to MIR and back with 4.24s and a .755 5th. Too bad second wouldn't work that day.


Driving to H20 and back I averaged like 28-32 miles to the gallon in my VR.
I have Nuespeed P-flow, 262 cams, C2 Race file chip and a 3" exhaust. 

City driving I get like 19-22MPG.


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## -skidmarks- (Dec 31, 2006)

great read, thanks for sharing the info :beer:


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

:thumbup:


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## rmetanes1 (Sep 21, 2008)

JASENR said:


> Driving to H20 and back I averaged like 28-32 miles to the gallon in my VR.
> I have Nuespeed P-flow, 262 cams, C2 Race file chip and a 3" exhaust.
> 
> City driving I get like 19-22MPG.


:thumbup: I wish mine did the same


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## dannyace (Nov 9, 2000)

Great write-up root beer!

Can we discuss pulleys a little more? I'm still uncertain about which to go with. The neuspeed power set is underdriven, is that a good thing? Or are just lightweight pulleys the better option for these motors?

I'm looking for my Corrado build which will have MK4 HG, 2.9 Clone Mani, Autotech LW flywheel, 268 cams w/ software.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I have always ran a stock diameter crank pulley, no underdrive.

There's no reason not to underdrive though.


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## sk8too (Dec 23, 2004)

I plan on running a lightweight pulley as opposed to the underdrive. I dont like the idea of under driving components.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Moved from the mk3 forum. Please point people to this when they ask the. same. questions. over. and. over.

Updated with info on why you shouldn't waste your money on a BVH and how to install an upper chain tensioner safely.


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## Lamy207 (Aug 5, 2009)

This needs to be sticky'd in the mk3 Fourms...


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Nahhhh, i hate stickies. Makes a forum look so cluttered.

It's more suitable over here anyway.


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## Lamy207 (Aug 5, 2009)

Thank you for the useful information.:thumbup:


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## APCXxstovetopxX (Jul 9, 2009)

awesome guide root beer ill definately be following it on my next VR, i was curious though if there was somewhere we could find your most updated mods list for your mk3 that ran 12s?


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

My simple setup that went 12's the most was this. I didn't change the motor at all really as i progressed from 13.0's to 12.4's.

Stock 180k block
A head that i ported myself, and payed a good headwork guy to do a nice valvejob
Mk4 HG
giac non cam chip
Schrick 268's, Autotech springs
Autotech 7lb flywheel, and a LW crank pulley
Ported exhaust manifolds and downpipe
2.9 Clone
Varying intakes between an autotech cai, and a headlight intake
I went 12's with the 2.5" TT/Borla exhaust, but the 3" MBS exhaust made more power

Trans was CCM gears, 3.68 r&p, and a quaife differential. It really started to shift well after shaving some teeth off of syncros, and removing 2 of the 3 idler dogs from under the sliders. I ran 22x8x13" M&H slicks.

And the car went from weighing around 2350 with driver to as light as ~2100 with driver. Running problems toward the end when it was getting really light. This is where the majority (an amazing amount) of work went on to get the car light without cutting any off the body of the car. I was a broke college kid, racing. People talk ****, "oh well it was just really light", but I assure you that i earned every number i got out of that car. :beer:


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## Hollagraphik (Nov 9, 2005)

This is still an awesome read :beer:
Now I just need to find a "How to build a relatively inexpensive, reliable, powerful 8v" thread


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## APCXxstovetopxX (Jul 9, 2009)

root beer said:


> My simple setup that went 12's the most was this. I didn't change the motor at all really as i progressed from 13.0's to 12.4's.
> 
> Stock 180k block
> A head that i ported myself, and payed a good headwork guy to do a nice valvejob
> ...


awesome thanks root beer, also any reason for the non cam ship over a cam chip or did you just use it because its what you already had?


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

It was just the one that i had since i was 18.


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## mk3alltheway (Feb 10, 2011)

root beer said:


> My simple setup that went 12's the most was this. I didn't change the motor at all really as i progressed from 13.0's to 12.4's.
> 
> Stock 180k block
> A head that i ported myself, and payed a good headwork guy to do a nice valvejob
> ...


I find it interesting that you went with a non cammed chip when you in fact had cams. what did you think about it? why did you choose to run that setup?

Also which cai intake did you find to make the most power or the best results?



root beer said:


> And the car went from weighing around 2350 with driver to as light as ~2100 with driver. Running problems toward the end when it was getting really light. This is where the majority (an amazing amount) of work went on to get the car light without cutting any off the body of the car. I was a broke college kid, racing. People talk ****, "oh well it was just really light", but I assure you that i earned every number i got out of that car. :beer:


respect :beer:


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

They're the same tune, just a different idle speed.

I went fastest with a velocity stack in the headlight 

Thanks :beer:


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## rickster123 (Jun 30, 2007)

very helpful stuff :thumbup::thumbup:


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## bgi corrado (Apr 2, 2009)

did you get my I M sir? looking forward to hearing from you


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## K1vr6 (May 27, 2010)

What is the best cai for vr6 mk3 help y what to buy thanks


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## T.D.B. (Aug 11, 2009)

Excellent thread. I wish we had more well-informed and wise posters such as yourself on these forums. :thumbup: :thumbup:

Do you have other threads covering the weight reduction specifically?


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Nah, i never made any. I really went through everything though. Down to the wiring.

4 lug, no sound deadening of any kind, nothing behind the dash, manual windows, deleted sunroof, nothing in the hatch, minimal harnesses, no rebars to speak of.


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## PKstrategy (Oct 21, 2004)

K1vr6 said:


> What is the best cai for vr6 mk3 help y what to buy thanks


custom or
Carbonio or
my personal fav is the Turn2. Which is NLA, but there is one floating around in the classifieds right now.


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## vrbwoy (Aug 9, 2011)

nice info.. very helpful, thanks..


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## whitegtivr6 (Dec 22, 2010)

Great info should be a sticky


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## miseryindeath (Mar 12, 2009)

So, I was asked to post the information here about the Ford coilpack mod, so I'm just going to throw up the quotes from the thread. :thumbup:




miseryindeath said:


> Completed the Ford coilpack mod.
> 
> Proceeded to beat on it afterward. :laugh:





PKstrategy said:


> ^ please elaborate...
> 
> as for me, yesterday I received MOAR wheels not for either of my cars.
> the other day, I forgot to mention I purchased some rare ass tails for the GTI. :heart:





miseryindeath said:


> The thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4223032-Ford-Coil-Pack-on-VR6-with-Pics.
> 
> Mine in a rough state before I finished it up. Simply put, go to a junkyard and nab an '02-'04 Ford V6 coilpack, get the matching pigtail, wire it up, tear down your VR6 coilpack to mount the Ford coilpack, bolt it on. I got 2 different coilpacks (just in case). One was from either an '03 Contour or Taurus, the other was from an '02 F150. Stock plug wires fit right on. Some people had issues with their plug wires not reaching so they had to take off the guides. My Mk4 wires that I used for the swap had plenty of length and fit just fine. :thumbup:





PKstrategy said:


> dope.
> what is the advantage?





miseryindeath said:


> Better throttle response, improved acceleration, supposedly better fuel mileage (haven't gotten that far yet). People running NA have been able to gap their plugs up to 0.045 or so, though they say the "sweet spot" is between 0.034 and 0.036.. Turbo guys have been able to go up to about 0.030 or so. Can't remember exact numbers. The Ford coilpack puts out way more voltage over stock.





PKstrategy said:


> Good to know man, thanks for the info.
> Tim, if you see this info regarding the coilpack, let's add to your thread if relevant. :thumbup:





V-dubbulyuh said:


> I did some tests and posted the results at various boost levels in the thread if you go back a few pages. Overall firing strength is increased enabling a larger plug gap and therefore potential for improved economy. A big deal on a VRT as economy on anything other than Pro-MAF sucks. I'm still at 0.030 gap and can run ~25psi no problem (stock coilpack I've always had to drop the gap down to at least 0.022" or so if I wanted to run anything in excess of 25psi).





PKstrategy said:


> miseryindeath and V-dubble, just a request, but can you also repost that info on Tim's thread?
> (how to build a relatively...VR6)


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Yea, see i like the ford coilpack. Cheap, and you can use stock wires. 

So much better than that MSD gm coil nonsense. Under power, i never felt any power difference with the msd stuff. I had put a set on my 3liter motor when a friend was parting them. I was kind of irritated that i spent the money. I noticed it running a little smoother for transitional driving, on/off throttle, if that makes sense.


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## PKstrategy (Oct 21, 2004)

:heart:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I still like stock coils with heat spacers. It will take a lot to drag me to something else.


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## mk3alltheway (Feb 10, 2011)

Heat spacers on a coil pack? Ive never heard of that, whats the advantage of doing that?


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## bgi corrado (Apr 2, 2009)

mk3alltheway said:


> Heat spacers on a coil pack? Ive never heard of that, whats the advantage of doing that?


the advantage is reduction in temperature internally on the pack from convection. Also it allows the pack to operate at normal operating temperatures with the spacers in their. This allows more cooling air to pass between the pack and the head. Similar to taking your hat off after being in the sun all day. It would be ideal to use spacers made from a material that don't conduct heat well,this is also important.


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## mk3alltheway (Feb 10, 2011)

I figured as much just based off of its description. I was never aware that it posed itself as that much of a problem to need correction..


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

They crack due to heat buildup. Fix the heat issue, no more coilpack problems.


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## vintage empire (Jan 11, 2002)

Who makes these heat spacers?


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

vintage empire said:


> Who makes these heat spacers?



http://www.lowes.com/pd_136978-3767...entURL=/pl__0__s?Ntt=nylon+spacers&facetInfo=


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I made mine using phenolic washers.


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## drakula13mx (May 20, 2005)

miseryindeath said:


> So, I was asked to post the information here about the Ford coilpack mod, so I'm just going to throw up the quotes from the thread. :thumbup:


i read almost all of it ,, and it looks that is just for the mk3 motor,, does this work for an mk4 vr6??


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Should be no different.


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## drakula13mx (May 20, 2005)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Should be no different.


nice....,,, i will look for some info for the mk4 just to make sure


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Stop looking. The man just told you what's up.


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## drakula13mx (May 20, 2005)

root beer said:


> Stop looking. The man just told you what's up.


 he said it should be no diference,, but no one has tried it with an mk4, or let me know where i can find the info where someone did it with an mk4....


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## L. Fopps (Oct 17, 2006)

Is it not the same motor?
Your talking 12v right?


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## 05mk4gli (Feb 3, 2005)

only difference is the connectors on the mk3 and mk4 12v coil packs. mk3 is a 5 pin square connector and the mk4 is 5 pin round/d-shape connector


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## drakula13mx (May 20, 2005)

L. Fopps said:


> Is it not the same motor?
> Your talking 12v right?


yes it is the 12v


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## drakula13mx (May 20, 2005)

05mk4gli said:


> only difference is the connectors on the mk3 and mk4 12v coil packs. mk3 is a 5 pin square connector and the mk4 is 5 pin round/d-shape connector


,, i dont know much about this,, thats why i could like to know how it goes for the mk4,,, for the mk3 it is clear... no doubt.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Just the icm connector is different.


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## kalaURU (Jan 10, 2010)

taking notes


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## wolfyy98 (Aug 28, 2008)

opinions on these headers? someone commented saying they use the same 3-2-1 design as the sought after estyles headers.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...ormance-Headers-(On-Sale-amp-In-Stock)-159.99


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Far east knockoff of the Supersprint. Junk imho.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Try it, and let us know. Doesn't look very nice though.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I spent six hours gasket matching one to port size and welding where I broke through. The collectors on them are total crap. It necks down under 2" at the 2-1 inside.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Its for torque!


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## sin bar (Jan 12, 2008)

bump


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## Cut_Throat_Karl (May 17, 2011)

You said a cone filter on the end of the MAF made you lose power on a dyno. How much power would you say? And would a slightly angled, 6 inch tube extending the filter out to under the fender more help that power loss?


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## BDodsonVR6 (Apr 12, 2009)

Amazing thread, but someone should do this for a MK4. I know some of the basic modifications are the same, but when it comes to the IAT sensor, Intake manifold, these features/modifications arent available on the 12v. Especially with as many of you have built respectable 12v's:laugh:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Iat shouldnt be a problem on a mk4 vr6. The sensor is in the maf and cant really heat soak. 

Most of the rest of it is similar, use your imagination, try some things, report back.


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## BDodsonVR6 (Apr 12, 2009)

Attempting to. Whenever I ick up the spare motor I'll report back as I go with data and hopefully go to the Dyno, and get some numbers. Plans are a 3.0L, 83mm pistons, IE Rods, P&P, Valve Job, TT 288 cams. But well see what the budget permits, and thespare motor priceing.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Nice. Skip the rods.

In my vr news, i sold almost all of my 12v stuff, except drivetrain. Now, i get a deal on a stock 90k 12v through labor. Looks like the gti will go back together. Whatever, something fun to play with. Not sure if i want to tag it and daily it or what, but it'll be nice to move itself around the lot at least.

2012 is going to be much more fun than 2011 for me carwise.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

83mm is only 2.9l as well.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

root beer said:


> In my vr news, i sold almost all of my *12v stuff*, except drivetrain.
> 
> 2012 is going to be much more fun than 2011 for me carwise.


Wonder what that means. :sly:


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

vr6 engine parts is what that means.


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## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

Maybe it means 3.6l of 24v VRsex.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

root beer said:


> vr6 engine parts is what that means.





GTIVRon said:


> Maybe it means 3.6l of 24v VRsex.



Seriously? This could get very interesting.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I'm not hinting at anything. I just said i'm getting a stock 12v, lol. That's the only 6 cylinder i will own for now.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Hmm, I will see how long you stay stock.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Well, i've still got schricks, old gaskets ready for copper spray, 7lb flywheel and comp clutch, 3.94 trans with a quaife that shifts well, dss axles, and a lw crank pulley to put back in the 2000lb chassis.

We'll see how long until i feel like buying valvesprings, flywheel bolts, probably lifters.... Even the thought of that much spending hurts.

I really really don't want to go crazy with it though. I don't have the income for it. I just want a reliable track rat/summer daily driver option.

I need a stock rear beam too if i'm going to feel ok tagging the thing again.


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## !monkey (Jul 6, 2007)

for us guys with not so much cash, could you give your opinion regarding what parts should always be purchased new vs. what we can get away with buying used? thxopcorn:


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## PKstrategy (Oct 21, 2004)

It's hard to say really because honestly "you gotta pay to play".
I say that because let's assume you buy half the upgrade parts used and half brand new, if those same half used parts go bad...you end up buying them new anyway. and if they affected the other "then new" parts, well....you end up spending 1.5x as much as you needed to in the first place. :thumbdown:


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

As far as the mechanical stuff...

Things that need to be new:

Headbolts(arps can be used)
Flywheel bolts
pressure plate bolts
Most gaskets, but we reuse mk4 gaskets all the time with copper spray.


Lifters....depends on how much you like your cams. I feel better buying these new.

That's about it.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*

I'm with that guy. Flywheel and pp bolts especially, and use loctite on the pp bolts and torque 5lb over spec.

Lifters it depends on how many miles are on a set for my stuff.. I think I had six camsets on one lifter set.


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## LouGarou (Jul 27, 2011)

Hello all!
Well, I'm thinking of getting a pair of slick or semi slick tire? I have 15" summer tire (195/45/15)

I'm trying to buy a slick first but I don't have no clue what size will fit on my rims.

Any idea?
thx guys.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Are you trying to drag race?

If you want to keep 5 lug, and 15" wheels, a 22x8x15 would be appropriate.

If you are 4lug, it's advantageous as you can run a 22x8x13 on a light 13" wheel, and the whole brake and knuckle assembly is significantly lighter.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The 23x7.5x15 M&H is also a decent choice. For dual use some 205/50 BFG's are better then nothing.


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## bgi corrado (Apr 2, 2009)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> Seriously? This could get very interesting.


you have to constantly pay attention in here cause things are constantly changing and the cost of keeping up is really getting far out yo!!!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Keeping up with what exactly?


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## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

Probably the 12 sec cars. Ha ha!


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Know how to get extra exhaust performance?

Buy my aluminum 3" system for $400. Less than 5k miles, bolts up to a stock dp on a mk3 gti. I need to pay a credit card off. Sick of the brokeness. :sly:


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

root beer said:


> Sick of the brokeness. :sly:


That's what happens when you want to go fast.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I went 12s pretty cheap. Could have been cheaper if I had more weight out.


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## Danza. (Apr 6, 2008)

Should have gone on the timmy diet.

Immediate 60 lb weight drop


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Probably more like 100lbs.


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## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

Explain this please.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I am fat and Tim is skinny for a bean pole.


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## vr_ben (Aug 5, 2010)

I have a vr6 apart which im freshening up and building up abit before swapping it in to my new car, am going to do some light work on the head my self (just smoothing things out, not making things bigger etc) and also plan to get a 3 angle valve job for it. Am wondering if a set of standard size Ferrea intake and exhaust valves would be worth the $300 or so they would cost? Or would I be better of cleaning up my old stock ones?

Also any more specific tips on diy head porting? I have a rough idea about head porting and have ported out lots of other things, but really cant find much usefull vr6 specific information anywhere. I plan on running a cai, ported throttle body, ported 2.9 clone and ported lower intake main, the head work I mentioned before, mk4 HG, a ported standard exhaust mani and downpipe, 2.5in exhaust, 1.8t IAT, neuspeed lightened and underdriven pulleys, lightened fly wheel, probably 268s and a giac tune.


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## wolfyy98 (Aug 28, 2008)

depending if you are obd1 or obd2 you may want to skip porting the throttle body. Obd2 cars tend to have some idle issues if they are ported heavily.


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## vr_ben (Aug 5, 2010)

Its an obd1 and I ran it ported for months without problems in my old car, actually made quite a difference in responsiveness


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

!monkey said:


> for us guys with not so much cash, could you give your opinion regarding what parts should always be purchased new vs. what we can get away with buying used? thxopcorn:


Do it. 

That car was pretty quick when I had the Schricks in it. The FW should still be the Autotech LW unless Luis pulled it, and the lifters were new when the cams went in, as was the clutch.


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## bgi corrado (Apr 2, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Keeping up with what exactly?


the upgrades is what i'm talking about,seems like we've been looking down the wrong path at times when they are stuff that cost relatively spit that can get us what we need,know what i mean? when are you coming my side again


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## XenoLlama (Sep 23, 2002)

Have a mk3 VR Jetta that I am starting to plan a transmission rebuild for. Planning on a LSD, but am thinking about making some R&P and 5th gear ratio changes. I want to make the car a bit peppier around town, but not loose too much in highway cruising mileage. Engine itself is mostly stock, with 262s as the biggest real power mod. Not really planning on doing much more for power.

Looking at the available ratios over at http://www.vwtransaxles.com/code.html, and dropping them into the MFactory ratio calculator linked in the OP this is what I came up with.

Keep 1-4 ratios stock.
Replace 5th with the 0.717 fifth gear from the TDI (CHA code)
3.94 R&P

If I have my head around this correctly, I should get more oomph in 1-4 than I have currently, then be able to cruise at about stock revs at 60-70 mph in 5th, albeit with a pretty tall 4-5 shift.

Have I totally miscalculated this, or are there other problems I am not thinking about in regards to durability of the parts?

Thanks!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Sounds right, it will be close but a little higher. I have run a 4.24 with .755 and its not bad at all. 3.94 can be liveable on a stock 5th if you don't highway a ton.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I liked my 3.68's the most for street driving.

I didn't go to the 3.94 until the car was really light, with solid mounts, 750# rear springs, and on/off throttle response. That car sucked to drive on teh street. It also just made street tires worthless most of the way through second.


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

root beer said:


> I liked my 3.68's the most for street driving.


3.68's with a 3rd ratio that doesn't suck is perfect imo.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I'm going to stick with the 4.24 and take 5th totally out next. I only have to put up with it for 7 miles each way.


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

root beer said:


> I didn't go to the 3.94 until the car was really light, with solid mounts, 750# rear springs, and on/off throttle response. That car sucked to drive on teh street. It also just made street tires worthless most of the way through second.


 Would you say that was mostly in part because of the solid mounts/rear springs? And can you define the on/off throttle response a little more for me? I'm trying to figure out exactly what you mean by this..... 

i currently have a custom geared (obviously piece mealed from different trannys) o2a with a 3.68 final on a stock motor gti, and I like it a lot. I see 28mpg but am going to end up keeping that as my spare trans and using another cryo treated trans with a diff for my 3.94 swap (with the .755 5th). I'm hoping that after I get all the mods done as in this thread that the 3.94 trans will prove nasty on the street or strip. I'll have slapper bars for the rear when I drag it. I guess we'll see once I finish the motor and trans up and drop it in over the next couple weeks.


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## XenoLlama (Sep 23, 2002)

root beer said:


> I liked my 3.68's the most for street driving.
> 
> I didn't go to the 3.94 until the car was really light, with solid mounts, 750# rear springs, and on/off throttle response. That car sucked to drive on teh street. It also just made street tires worthless most of the way through second.


 So I guess my next question is, just how nutty are the 3.94s going to be compared to stock? Car is putting down a hair over 180ish hp/tq


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I ran that a long time on stock 5th, it's not too bad. 

~240whp and the 4.24 gets interesting. 

FWIW I could squeeze 32mpg out of both the 12v with the 3.94 and the 24v with the 4.24.


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## -skidmarks- (Dec 31, 2006)

^ is it a big difference between stock and 3.94 5th in an 020? 
is it worth the extra cash?? is the money better spent on an LSD??? 
im sure it all works hand in hand but im deff building on a budget hoping for 200whp 
out of a 12v dizzy motor. its a street car...


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

-skidmarks- said:


> is the money better spent on an LSD???


 That's a big yes.


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## -skidmarks- (Dec 31, 2006)

:thumbup::beer:


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## mk3alltheway (Feb 10, 2011)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Sounds right, it will be close but a little higher. I have run a 4.24 with .755 and its not bad at all. 3.94 can be liveable on a stock 5th if you don't highway a ton.





root beer said:


> I liked my 3.68's the most for street driving.
> 
> I didn't go to the 3.94 until the car was really light, with solid mounts, 750# rear springs, and on/off throttle response. That car sucked to drive on teh street. It also just made street tires worthless most of the way through second.


 What size tires are you guys running with the 3.94 and 3.68? Isnt that what really makes all the difference when comparing one setup to another? 




XenoLlama said:


> If I have my head around this correctly, I should get more oomph in 1-4 than I have currently, then be able to cruise at about stock revs at 60-70 mph in 5th, albeit with a pretty tall 4-5 shift.


 More so quoting for the feeling of uncertainty in whether or not I fully grasp the concept. 

After looking into Eurospecs close ratio o2a trans it really peaked my interest in what the right gearing can do for any car. Every time Ive played around with gearing calculators I seem to confuse myself more than I originally was. 

When changing R&P's from say 3.38 to 3.94 you are effectively shifting the "powerband" 
X rpms sooner. All the while the redline for that gear will change as well. Is that correct?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

No, changing the final drive changes only the speed vs revs in every gear equally. Rpm drop between gears has to be changed with individual gear ratio swaps, with only certain combos being possible. 

I ran either 205/50 or 225/50s, and 22-24.5" slicks at various times.


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## mk3alltheway (Feb 10, 2011)

need_a_VR6 said:


> No, changing the final drive changes only the speed vs rec in every gear equally.


 what is rec?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Revs. Sorry, crappy ipone typing


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

*FV-QR*

If you want a good "close ratio" gear stack, grab a Mk4 Vr o2j. They are all over the place as cores with trashed 2nd gear synchros. 

Use the o2j case with your 1st, and 5th. Your 2nd as well if you make decent power. 

Then add a set of 3.68's if you want more. 


This is all thinking in terms of a daily street car though. Anything more is overkill on the street imho. With this setup, I already have to pedal through second. Anymore would be annoying to me. 

02j's tend to have the shift segments in better shape as well, which is good because they are up to like $350 to replace, and cause a ton of play in the shifter.


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

JohnStamos said:


> This is all thinking in terms of a daily street car though. Anything more is overkill on the street imho. With this setup, I already have to pedal through second. Anymore would be annoying to me.


 What does your car weigh? What size and type tires?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Make sure you dont use the 4cyl 1-2 its not a good fit and other then very early trans codes they use small dog teeth on the gears and syncs. Prone to failure on fast shifts, eating the hub slider.


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> other then very early trans codes they use small dog teeth on the gears and syncs. Prone to failure on fast shifts, eating the hub slider.


 
Any idea on the cutoff for this? The 3 02j's I have pulled apart were out of 99.5-2000 models. All looked identical to the 02a gears syncs. 

I was just about to pick up a core from a 2001 cheap, so good to know to look out for that. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

PBWB said:


> What does your car weigh? What size and type tires?


 2650 with me in it at track weight
Street weight is near 2850 with everything in it.


205/45/16 ER30 Turenza's on the street currently. Have ran 205/40/16 KDW's, 215/40/16 S drives, and a bunch of crappy 205/40/16 all seasons. Only the KDW's hooked through second with no drama.

NEVER had an issue with second on street tires at the track though, even managing 2.0 60's on 205/50/15 bald all seasons.


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## max302 (Apr 7, 2010)

Cross-posting my info from the Ford coil-pack thread... http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...ack-on-VR6-with-Pics.&p=75555695#post75555695 

Update the front page if you find it pertinent. :thumbup:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I know the 1.8t Jetta Wolfsurgs had the small teeth, so the change is before that. Not sure if the dog change is 4cyl only or the VR6 as well. Haven't had enough apart to know.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I've had some weird stuff happen with bearings and different 3rd gears. I've had (better) later bearings seizing up as i'd press the stack together with an older gear. Put the old bearing in, no issues with the older gear.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I have had that bearing sieze and break 3rd before. Fun.


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## XenoLlama (Sep 23, 2002)

root beer said:


> I've had some weird stuff happen with bearings and different 3rd gears. I've had (better) later bearings seizing up as i'd press the stack together with an older gear. Put the old bearing in, no issues with the older gear.


 Sounds like if I do any re-gearing when I dig into mine, ill be passing up any changes to 3rd, just for safety's sake.


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## Sonic303 (Nov 13, 2009)

sub'd for pure awesomesauce! :thumbup:


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## mx3autozam (Nov 24, 2010)

I really enjoy my setup

used a AGC 02a from a 16v passat which has 3.94 final. 1.345 3rd and .795 5th

rest of my gears are stock vr6. Its really nice. its a little harsh on the highway at 2900rpm at 70mph. The .795 is still kind of short compared to a tdi but i didn't have a tdi, and the .795 is taller than the stock vr6 so i used it to at least attempt at getting som decent mileage on the highway.
when on the street its like a truck shifting thru the gears, When i put the pedal down it really seemed to make the car fun, seems to like wheel spin in 1st and 2nd too.


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## Danny P. (Jul 29, 2009)

Well I'm finally getting started on a few of the things I've read on here. Thanx for putting this thread together. I guess I needed this for motivation.


Sent from your Mom's house using your Dad's IPhone.


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## rudygetz (Aug 22, 2006)

root beer said:


> Know how to get extra exhaust performance?
> 
> Buy my aluminum 3" system for $400. Less than 5k miles, bolts up to a stock dp on a mk3 gti. I need to pay a credit card off. Sick of the brokeness. :sly:


Is this still for sale? I tried to PM you but your inbox is full.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Sorry, it sold.

Inbox now empty fwiw :heart:


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## X37 (Dec 29, 2007)

What's the deal with the 1.8t IAT Sensor? You said something about relocating it? Where to? I just bought one and wouldn't mind the few extra HP. 

Sent from my Dreamcast Web Browser using Tapatalk


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Anywhere, open air, in a tube, in a manifold, use your best judgement.


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## One_Off_Volk (Nov 30, 2011)

Can someone help me find a 24v vr6 engine or an R32 engine?? I am on desperate need of one for my senior project and I am running out of time to get one. Please help me..


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I know the 1.8t Jetta Wolfsurgs had the small teeth, so the change is before that. Not sure if the dog change is 4cyl only or the VR6 as well. Haven't had enough apart to know.



Just pulled apart a 2001 6cly 02j last night, and it had the normal dog teeth. Might (hopefully) be a 4cly only thing. 







Maybe add info on beefing up the stock diff? I know it's not a good idea to push your luck with them, and you REALLY should have a LSD on these cars even stock to make them worth a damn, but the stock diff has a few issues that can be dealt with if you have the trans apart.

Like doubling up the roll pin with a 1/8 SAE roll pin inside the stock 5mm pin. $0.50 that helps keep the main failure from happening. You can also weld the pin to the carrier, but you REALLY need to have the carrier preheated, and outgassed first, as I haven't had much luck welding it. Wouldn't even think of touching it with a MIG.

There are 2 types of spider gears. There is a powdered metal set that have a habit of exploding into pieces, and then the billet style that hold up well. If you have access to the billet ones, run them.


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## jazzcat2001 (Mar 17, 2004)

StayFatlaceMK3 said:


> Can someone help me find a 24v vr6 engine or an R32 engine?? I am on desperate need of one for my senior project and I am running out of time to get one. Please help me..


craigslist or ask in your local vortex forums. r32 engines sell for a premium and if you're planning a rebuild they are even more expensive

ebay has an r motor for 5 grand but looks like you still have to get accessories...
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=vw+r32+engine&_sacat=0&_odkw=vw+r32+motor&_osacat=0&_from=R40

good luck dude


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Please delete your posts about buying 24v's. You know better...


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## jazzcat2001 (Mar 17, 2004)

im rocking the 12v still :laugh: don't think i'd go 24v at anytime especially since we just rebuilt mine

love it all over again


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## turboit (Oct 4, 2001)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I have had that bearing sieze and break 3rd before. Fun.


um what haven't you broken Paul??


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## tlupcke (Feb 17, 2011)

are NGK BKR5EKU the same spark plugs you suggest?
what you suggest are NGK BKR5E... but these have KU at the end..thoughts?


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I may be wrong, but i believe that the only variable is single or dual electrode bkr5e. I have had cars run well on each.

Anybody have this info?


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## Cut_Throat_Karl (May 17, 2011)

tlupcke said:


> are NGK BKR5EKU the same spark plugs you suggest?
> what you suggest are NGK BKR5E... but these have KU at the end..thoughts?


The BKR5EKU is a multi-ground plug and the other is a traditional plug. Dont buy the KU plugs, they're only for cars with engines like the rotary that require them. NGK's website gives you all your info I just found out....


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

There is also BKR5E-N11

This are the standard plugs, but they come side-gapped for better spark exposure. Like the old hot rodders used to do.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Friday!

Damn close to 100k views. That's almost as many as the "post your spray bomb" thread in the mk3 forum. ALMOST!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

You are kind of a big deal on the internet.


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## Grabbit (Apr 27, 2001)

Quick question about injectors. If I wanted to swap in the AFP manifold as sort of poor mans Schrick manifold and got everything from the MK4 AFp needed are the injectors the same LB or flow rating between mk3 and mk4, looks like both AAA and AFP use a 3.0 bar FPR so just wondering......

Found a local setup for about $200 and trying to make sure I'm getting everything I need sans the change over controller I'll need to get from summit or jegs.


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## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

Grabbit said:


> Quick question about injectors. If I wanted to swap in the AFP manifold as sort of poor mans Schrick manifold and got everything from the MK4 AFp needed are the injectors the same LB or flow rating between mk3 and mk4, looks like both AAA and AFP use a 3.0 bar FPR so just wondering......
> 
> Found a local setup for about $200 and trying to make sure I'm getting everything I need sans the change over controller I'll need to get from summit or jegs.


Please let us know. I too am considering this. But running the MK3 cams still.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

For performance, i would stick with a mk3 manifold.


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## cmbishop14 (Sep 10, 2009)

this is single handedly the most informative and useful thread on this site. perfect. :thumbup:


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## sk8too (Dec 23, 2004)

Pullies
Lighter is better. How much performance is it worth? I don’t know. Less stuff spinning, more efficient. If it’s a issue of whether or not it’s worth the money, the crank pulley is the most effective as the stock one is very heavy. The stock pulley offers some harmonic dampening, but not enough jump up and down about a lightweight crank pulley. There are some performance harmonic dampeners out there being developed for the VW market, but even if these to become available for VR6‘s, I wouldn’t worry about it except on a turbo car.

I see that it been briefly covered but was wondering if anybody was running the gruvenparts crank pully set up like this
http://gruvenparts.com/website/cart/cart.php?target=product&product_id=266&category_id=60

I know its a simple bolt on and that less weight on the crank pully is good, just wondering on personal experience


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## -skidmarks- (Dec 31, 2006)

sk8too said:


> Pullies, Lighter is better. How much performance is it worth? *is it worth the money*


what about the use of a lightened flywheel with lightened pullies?
who has experience with which brands? gruven, neuspeed, ect....


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## sk8too (Dec 23, 2004)

well I'm running a lightened flywheel now, just looking for some input on pullies


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## mk3alltheway (Feb 10, 2011)

-skidmarks- said:


> what about the use of a lightened flywheel with lightened pullies?
> who has experience with which brands? gruven, neuspeed, ect....


Gruvenparts pulleys with an ac delete. The only pulley that I didnt swap was the crank for its dampener.

Also have an autotech 10lb flywheel noticed a difference going from just the flywheel to the 10lb fw with lightened pulleys. A lot more clutch work involved..


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## Macho_volks (Jan 2, 2003)

im watching this one


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## youlostme21 (Aug 12, 2008)

mk3alltheway said:


> Gruvenparts pulleys with an ac delete. The only pulley that I didnt swap was the crank for its dampener.
> 
> Also have an autotech 10lb flywheel noticed a difference going from just the flywheel to the 10lb fw with lightened pulleys. A lot more clutch work involved..


Any gains in performace or "fun to drive" to out weigh the extra clutch work


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## blkgtiberto (Mar 11, 2004)

I had the older unorthodox 7lb FW and the full set of pullies and it reved up about twice as fast. Sadly I didn't do a before an after but I did notice I killed it about 4 times over a year after the install. I would recommend as many as you can afford/adjust to if your going for a drag car. A street car I would get the pullies and the 10-13lb FW that is available.


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## VR6 GLX Man (May 20, 2008)

I've posted in the past about the 10lb flywheel, it felt completely different from stock, but you get the tires loose quicker with it, no HP gain of course, but the acceleration is better.


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## VR6 GLX Man (May 20, 2008)

The pullies I've always wondered if I'd notice any difference.


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## blkgtiberto (Mar 11, 2004)

I did them all at the same time along with 268s so horsepower is moot from me. But the thing would run up the revs closer to a Honda or bike rather than a VR


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## mk3alltheway (Feb 10, 2011)

youlostme21 said:


> Any gains in performace or "fun to drive" to out weigh the extra clutch work


Keep in mind im running my 10lb fw with an oem sachs. A really soft clutch with a really light flywheel. Not the best combo in my opinion. It is however very fun to drive, as far as comfort I find my head shooting back to often to call it a comfortable ride in a lowered car. It grabs soo fast its as if every stop becomes a drag strip unless your blowing on the throttle.

There are however people who are running 7lb fw and love it! To each his or her own, I just like the versatility of comfort and performance and If I were to do it again id go with either a stage 1 clutch and the 10lb fw or a 13lb fw with an oem sachs.


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## PMLyf (Apr 18, 2011)

Figured id ask here instead of making a thread for it,

im taking apart my vr6 (for engine swap) so i can get it checked out and make sure the head is still in spec, no bent valves and what not (considering the oil was some funky color and there was water in the head instead of coolant).

Anyways, I was wondering if it would be ill advised to take head bolts out with the impact. I already have the order to take them out to prevent warping the head, but i dont think im strong enough to do it by hand. :banghead:


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## PKstrategy (Oct 21, 2004)

....Maybe eat some wheaties and have a go at it again... :screwy:
If you plan on reusing the head though, I _think_ you might be OK with using an impact to remove the studs.
But don't quote me on it.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I use an impact, but try to stick close to reverse torquing order just for sanity.


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## PMLyf (Apr 18, 2011)

PKstrategy said:


> eat some wheaties


Second time someone has told me this today..


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## PKstrategy (Oct 21, 2004)

:laugh:

Tim, this is more of a personal question, but kinda related here.

Remember those ported exhaust manis & DP?
Would you say it's a good idea to media blast them and maybe ceramic coat them?
(maybe only the manis)
Does it affect anything? 

I don't wanna drop any coin on useless headers and the ones that actually do make a difference are too rich for my pockets.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I never did it. At one point, i had them done up nicely with the 1200 deg duplicolor, and never did it again.


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## Road Boss (Jul 16, 2004)

Great info! Lots to read.


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## KeatGLX (Jun 3, 2010)

hmm, the 1.8 IAT sensor really does that much? any suggestion wher ei should get one? is a used one ok?


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## L. Fopps (Oct 17, 2006)

There not expensive just buy a new one. I'm pretty sure ECS has them.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Keat the Beat said:


> hmm, the 1.8 IAT sensor really does that much? any suggestion wher ei should get one? is a used one ok?


 Seriously works. I always had used ones sitting around.


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Seriously works. I always had used ones sitting around.


 Where did you guys run the IAT? I'm thinking in cold-air pipe about 10" from the throttle body(so I can hide it), but wasn't sure if that would give me any issues with the readings. I know that some of the management systems have it built into the MAF and there is no issues there, but wasn't sure if the older VRs where it "should" be.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Thats fine. I had mine right by my filter.


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## 2a2gtis (Jan 31, 2008)

Did a compression test on my Corrado dizzy vr : 
1. 150 
2. 149 
3. 140 
4. 143 
5. 138 
6. 158 
Corrado Bentley says new engine 160-189 wear limit 109 
MK3 " " 145-189 " " 
I thought they would be lower because of small wisps of smoke on cold start up. I dont't think its stem seals. 
What does _experience_ tell you guys about theses #'s I got? 
I'm pulling the motor to do chains and clutch fork this weekend. Since the motors going to be out, should I go ahead and throw on a Mk iv H.G.?(money is a concern) Will the power difference be that noticeable? 
What kind of Compression numbers should I see after I possibly after the H.G. 
Great thread BTW. *Very informative*. If my questions are in the wrong place I'll remove. :thumbup:


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Good that they're something resembling consistant, but they seem a little low. Could just be the guage, or something particular with the test. 

If you have money for headbolts and a HG set, i would do it. 

I'm really unsure of how much the numbers would go up. There's probably some simple math to get an idea.


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## X37 (Dec 29, 2007)

For those looking for IAT sensor, go to autohausAZ.com

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2


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## 2a2gtis (Jan 31, 2008)

Ok I'll throw it on. I was leaning that way...I just needed someone to nudge me a little I guess. The car sat for 7 ~ 8 years in storage. I did not pull the plugs and oil the bores beforehand:banghead:. It did pull WAY better before storage. I had been thinking the improper storage might have corroded the bores. It didn't have _start up wisps of smoke_ back in 03 ish when it was still very much - the unfinished project car-. 
Hopefully the headgasket trick will buy me some time before a rebuild. 
thanks :thumbup:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I would do leakdown then decide.


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## 2a2gtis (Jan 31, 2008)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I would do leakdown then decide.


 Hmm yeah. That would pinpoint it for me. Its wiser to do a leakdown, than just throw HG at it. 
Oh btw paul... you hooked up my best friend with megasquirt board work. The Chevelle guy in Ohio... He's really happy with everything. If I ever go that route, or know anybody else wanting to megasquirt, we'll send them your way :thumbup:


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## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

Get yourself a good pressure tester with 2 real gauges. 

The ony from Harbor Freight (US General brand) sucks. Forces you to do the test at ~16 PSI and I don't trust the results of the test one bit.


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## Tsiqara (Mar 26, 2012)

Question about IAT:

Today i have remade my IAT....
I have added some wire to the plug of my IAT and mounted IAT after MAF and between TB. The place is right but the question is:

I haven't used 1.8T IAT. I just used VW 97 2.0 Motor's IAT (Which originally was mounted in FILTER BOX). 

So does it make any difference if i install 1.8T IAT or the one i have already installed there???  It's design looks same as 1.8 IAT, it's not closed, not covered in metal etc... a bit shorter...


Thank you


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

All the mk3 sensors i've seen have been are closed element. If you've got an open element vw sensor, im sure it will be fine.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

ABA is closed element, if you have it mounted in the filter box it won't heatsoak but it also won't react as fast to cold air coming in.


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## 2a2gtis (Jan 31, 2008)

I installed a new fuel pressure regulator today. What a difference! Id say it runs at _least_ 90% of what it did before storage. I'm not going to touch the engine internally for now. It feels like it should be in the high 14's now- hopefully .
Test pipe in tommorrow. Chains & clutch fork will wait another week.









Thanks guys :thumbup:


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## 2a2gtis (Jan 31, 2008)

Theres been alot of questions about the 1.8 t sensor and its location. This might help some
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5657358-DIY-Cold-air-intake-with-1.8t-AIT-sensor


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## 98GTI_VR6 (Jan 21, 2011)

*just out of curiousity...*

my intake cannot go where you showed due to the a/c system. My 1998 model gti vr6 has the dryer axactly where you routed your cold air intake! How should i go about getting cold air? I just have a 3in. 45* elbow of pvc between my MAF and my K&N cone air filter. however it isn't in the fender but just above it. also how much of a gain are you talkin from 262 cams to 268's (drc). i am thinkin of gettin a pair of 268 's just want to know the noticable gains...i already have 262's with hd springs, polished head and match ported everything including header flange, and both intake manifolds, lower is polished. i have the bfi stg. 2 chip for the 262's, 10lb flywheel. also just ordered the 1.8t iat sensor and im going to install it on the pvc section of my intake.

thing is i got beat by a z28 camaro like 1998 style.... lt1 with a few bolt ons like intake exhaust, r&p, and msd everything.... got me by 2 cars i want to beat hiim lmao.... (at the track)


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Just try to fit a curved intake in there somewhere. The further from the maf the better.

The gains going to 268's will be all over. More torque, more power. Maybe 5-10whp peak? Definitely noticable.

If you want to beat him at the track or otherwise, slicks/diff/ring and pinion will get you there quicker than a power increase.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I had a turn2 intake on my mk3 with ac. You can get something to fit.


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## sk8too (Dec 23, 2004)

Just loosen the bolts that hold the drier push the tube into the hole and then snug it back up.


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## 98GTI_VR6 (Jan 21, 2011)

Thanks ill try the above recommendations... Btw I have him in a quarter he comes around me in the big end we did a pull from 50-110 n that's where he beat me but my jump at the line destroys him. I really want that ytrtansmission that mjm offers with the 3.98 r+p and the upgraded diferential


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## 2a2gtis (Jan 31, 2008)

Ive got the motor out to do timing chains and some other stuff.
On page 1 its written _" Timing is always the last thing i do before starting an engine. If you time it, and let it sit, it can very easily hop a tooth on one cam overnight."_
I want to avoid the possibility of this. Could I? ....
Time engine, install it into the chassis. Reconnect *everything* except, leave the tensioner (bled and submerged) in oil until I'm ready to start the engine.
Thread in the tensioner and start it up?
This would be easier- time wise, for me- I'm thinking I should be fine. Ive never done this before. So I thought I'd ask


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

With all the motors I have assembled this has never been an issue. Be sure to use the later spring loaded tensioner bolt on all builds with late model all plastic rear guides.


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## GT-Ian (Jan 2, 2011)

great thread, there is a lot of helpful info

Thanks Ian


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

This thread is so helpful. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## vwhead5223 (Feb 20, 2006)

*Thanks for the info.*

I have just spent the last two days....at work reading this thread from front to back. Great thread. Love the idea of the 1.8t iat sensor every little bit counts. 

I am curious about a statement that you made in your first post. You stated that headers give no gains. That just seems odd to me. I am currently freshening up a VR for a swap I am doing. I cam across a header for a few bucks. Is it better to just run the stock mani and head (no head machining or mani machining) or run the header? 


Thanks in advance.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

It does seem odd, doesn't it? For one thing, most of these headers are just poorly thought out, poorly made ebay junk. Another is that these motors don't rev very high, which is usually where a header really shines on most cars.

Headers are lighter than the stock stuff on the positive end.

Try it, and see what you think. It's nothing that you can't change back later.


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## mx3autozam (Nov 24, 2010)

I have been reading this thread for over a year now. I have slowly done alot of whats in this thread thanks to Root beer and his suggestions. Got it dyno'd yesterday at 175whp./168ft lb and i am very happy with those numbers.

Awesome thread


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## Grabbit (Apr 27, 2001)

[No message]


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

That sounds about right. Depends on what parts your man will need to get for you. I've sent heads in that need damn near all the valves.

Thanks for all the positive comments guys :thumbup:


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## Grabbit (Apr 27, 2001)

I've been experimenting with the whole 1.8t IAT sensor and I have to say that I've gotten mixed results with the sensor in the intake track of a CAI and not in the intake track of a stock airbox. Seems to run better on the OEM IAT in the manifold then these two scenarios. Next step in modifying the manifold to put the 1.8t sensor on the stock location. I'm not sure but the 1.8t was engineered with the sensor after the TB so I have to think this is the best place for it. 

Just my .02, anyone else?


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

*FV-QR*

I just went to a potentiometer instead of the temp sensor after cleaning up my harness this time.

Logged with Vagcom, and kept decreasing the value til it started pulling timing/registering knock (which it never did, on 93oct, Early C2 Jeff tune) so mines locked at something super low temp wise, as I went til it stopped decreasing the IAT on the scanner, then went up 2 degrees so it wouldn't throw a code for too low IAT reading. No knock issues even in the recent 90*+ weather.



If I remember next time I'm out messing around, I'll log the timing on different temp settings to get an idea of the timing changes occurring.


Honestly though, if you are experiencing a big enough driveability/power difference(especially negative!) by swapping to a 1.8t IAT in the intake tube, you have a different underlying issue, as the change isn't really "buttdyno" significant. 


I'd start by logging timing(both actual and from map), knock counts, & IAT on a 3rd gear pull with both setups and see whats going on. :thumbup::thumbup:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Dont forget the iat effects the fuel calcs too. Not a big deal until the temp changes and your fuel trims are way off.


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## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Dont forget the iat effects the fuel calcs too. Not a big deal until the temp changes and your fuel trims are way off.


I'm getting some detonation and pinging on GIAC 268 software once the car is warm. Even with the 94 octane (10% ethanol) that we have up here in Canada. 

I am going to retorque my knock sensors but would it be possible that a 1.8T IAT may help my situation? It has happened even on my old stock motor in the exact same circumstances with this motor. Could never figure it out.


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## mx3autozam (Nov 24, 2010)

WannabeVWguy said:


> I am going to retorque my knock sensors but would it be possible that a 1.8T IAT may help my situation? It has happened even on my old stock motor in the exact same circumstances with this motor. Could never figure it out.


if anything doing this sensor mod will make it worse as it adds timing


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## WannabeVWguy (Sep 22, 2002)

Fuel trim is also a factor. Not just timing. As paul mentioned this sensor has an effect on fuel trim so i am just curious if its worth a shot


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Dont forget the iat effects the fuel calcs too. Not a big deal until the temp changes and your fuel trims are way off.


Do you happen to have/know what the stock table for it looks like? Like whether they are 2d: IAT/fuel modifier & IAT/Timing modifier, 3d based off load, or something not even close to either. Or know how the ECU calculates it. I figure if anyone knows, that will actually share, you'd be the guy.



I guess I could just not be lazy, and open up the OBD1 .bin and see what it looks like.


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## Grabbit (Apr 27, 2001)

JohnStamos said:


> the change isn't really "buttdyno" significant.



more of a cold start/idle issue. As far as power, I can't tell the difference other than the cheap ebay CAI i got is worse than a OEM paper filtered rado airbox..... Plus it makes the car sound like a single cam vtec motor with an intake :facepalm:


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## veersixxx (Aug 3, 2006)

Hints & Tips



















My '97 did 185 whp/ 183 wtq on a dynojet. But it needs a real tune and some diag i am sure. Eats more oil than bp can spill.


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## 2a2gtis (Jan 31, 2008)

I ran a 14.6368 @ 93.84 2.1934 60' 95 degrees that day (last weds.)
best mpg is 33 mpg around town. About the same on the freeway (ccm trans)
Now I'm no drag racer. I just had to know what it would do. What would 268's and a p&p do with those numbers?
My friends are big drag racers and they said expect 2 to 3 tenths when the _temp_ goes below 60 degrees.
I guess I'm looking for 13's. Im at 2360lbs with me in it (mk2) 
I basically did everything here in this thread except the trans work and what I said above. (stock head for now)
Thanks for the help roostbeer :thumbup::thumbup:
Also to everyone else that has contributed on this thread


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

*FV-QR*

Honestly, after your compression numbers, and trap speed, I'd be looking to rering it before dropping money on anything else.

For comparison, I have trapped 94mph, at 2900lbs with me in it, CCM trans, with just exhaust and tune.


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## mx3autozam (Nov 24, 2010)

veersixxx said:


> Hints & Tips
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is the exact same tranny setup i run and its perfect


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## 2a2gtis (Jan 31, 2008)

JohnStamos said:


> Honestly, after your compression numbers, and trap speed, I'd be looking to rering it before dropping money on anything else.
> 
> For comparison, I have trapped 94mph, at 2900lbs with me in it, CCM trans, with just exhaust and tune.


 2900 wow. Hmm. I did the mkiv HG. But have not redone the comp test. Yeah sounds like some time could be made up if it was just tight. Lifes busy now. I'm just happy to be up and running. Ill try to make time. A new test would be interesting. Its easy enough to.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

At that weight something is wrong. I would check comp and if that's fine, cam timing.


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## 2a2gtis (Jan 31, 2008)

need_a_VR6 said:


> At that weight something is wrong. I would check comp and if that's fine, cam timing.


 Well before the MkIV gasket, I averaged 146.33 psi.
The chains were not a big deal. The marks were spot on. I kinda think that is hard to mess up. 1/2 tooth off is obvious - to me anyway. Well.. what kind of numbers (1/4 mile) should I be getting?
The input is appreciated. 
The fuel mileage is great. It Runs real smooth. (did the egr delete + resistor trick) I did add 1/4 of a quart of oil after 550 miles. So its burning oil, but not "smoking".
Believe me I sooo wanted to re-ring it(almost _did_) but I had to put the brakes on at some point. It sounds like I'm cheap, but Ive got to stay in a budget. Since pulling the motor Ive gotten $1500 + lighter in the past 2~3 months with this car. 
Well to just give an Idea on my $$ spent on VW's. At my local parts place - (http://www.euclidforeign.com/ Real good people!) last year they gave me *my own account* ... because "your here so much"  . Not wining- just trying to give some perspective. I'll check the comp again and report back :thumbup:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

A light mk2 even with an almost stock motor should be a 13.9/100mph car. 140s comp is getting pretty low, the only time I had mine that low was with a bent rod. All others were 180-190 but it will vary by gauge a bit.


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## Shtbox (Nov 27, 2010)

*FV-QR*

anyone know what kinda hondas use 3" pipe for the aftermarket intakes? trying to make a 'cai' out of one of them for the absolute cheapest i can.


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

*FV-QR*

Just buy a 3" J pipe. No need for anything more.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

When I ran a 3.5" I just used a single Vibtant 45deg bend with a 3to3.5" coupler and the filter. It just made it under the frame rail.


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## 98GTI_VR6 (Jan 21, 2011)

*my cia*

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5714879-hoping-for-close-to-200whp-n-a....BUILD-THREAD

its in there..... went to lowes, pvc section, 3" pvc


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## veersixxx (Aug 3, 2006)

Update on my 3rd gear scenario. Changed fluid, was using 75w-90 Pennzoil conventional gear oil from the shop i work in, drain & fill with PENNZOIL SYNCHROMESH, 110% gone as if the problem never existed. Blew my mind.


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## youlostme21 (Aug 12, 2008)

veersixxx said:


> Update on my 3rd gear scenario. Changed fluid, was using 75w-90 Pennzoil conventional gear oil from the shop i work in, drain & fill with PENNZOIL SYNCHROMESH, 110% gone as if the problem never existed. Blew my mind.


Regular gear oil is no good. I ran Synchromesh in a few cars and liked it. But if you work at a shop and need to use something around you use ATF. 
You'll be good to go.


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## j-t-cook (May 22, 2007)

So I just read all 16 pages of this.. You guys all rock.. 

But I still have some questions.. 
I know you guys are mostly drag'ers, but I'm building my car mostly for circuit / auto cross, but it is also my daily driver for the time being, 

How is your mid rage torque? 

My current motor has 244,000km (bout 151k miles) and 
if I built this one it would be the second time doing chains.. 

Lot of motors with under 95k miles on them around here, plus then I don't have to put my daily out of commission.. 

Anything you guys would recommend NOT doing for a circuit / daily car?


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## swtnlow (Oct 8, 2009)

*Test pipe*

So to run a test pipe without a cel all I need to do is double stack o2 sensor spacers. I don't have the funds for c2 software yet. Also how much of a difference in sound is there? Thanks in advance!


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

j-t-cook said:


> So I just read all 16 pages of this.. You guys all rock..
> 
> But I still have some questions..
> I know you guys are mostly drag'ers, but I'm building my car mostly for circuit / auto cross, but it is also my daily driver for the time being,
> ...


 If you're into auto-x, those guys like to stucture classing/rules around how small your balls are, so i'd take that into consideration first. 

From the road racers i've talked to with vr's, brakes are the issue. I would probably start with the same simple motor combo that i drag raced with if I were to go road racing. Maybe with a few more cooling provisions IF it needs it. I think lots of these guys get too crazy with unnecessary oil coolers/radiators/fan setups before they're actually functional, the "well, bmw's have them" mentality. 

As for midrange, you'll always have plenty, and almost every modification you do to the engine will only make more.


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## mavicman (Nov 13, 2000)

swtnlow said:


> So to run a test pipe without a cel all I need to do is double stack o2 sensor spacers. I don't have the funds for c2 software yet. Also how much of a difference in sound is there? Thanks in advance!


 42 Draft Designs makes a fancy O2 spacer for that puporse or you could go the inexpensive route and use a spark plug non-fouler. I did the inexpensive and no CEL.


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## swtnlow (Oct 8, 2009)

So if I just buy one spacer I'll be good to go?


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## mavicman (Nov 13, 2000)

swtnlow said:


> So if I just buy one spacer I'll be good to go?


 They generally come in a 2-pack. There are many DIYs for it if you google it. You need to drill out at least one of them so the tip of the O2 sensor can seat correctly. Many procedures have you then thread on the second spacer (undrilled) before threading the whole thing into your pipe.


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## Pwagondraggin (Nov 20, 2009)

subscribed :beer:


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## Rapid Decompression (Dec 5, 2004)

Great thread...TY for the contribution :beer:


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## veersixxx (Aug 3, 2006)

*thanks Tim*

ever since i have discovered this thread and read through it ever so carefully, i have gained so much useful knowledge and confidence when working on a vr. it wasn't until reading this that i ever went internal other than a set of cams and thinner head gasket. ports in & out are key to making these things really sing. 

the info in here pretty much became a to-do list and today it proved itself more than ever. 

197 whp/ 186 wtq cf:std, smoothing: 5 
SAE: 1.03 corrected #'s are 193 whp/ 182 wtq 
dynojet @ aptuning in Lebanon, PA 
89.97 F, 30% humidity 

read it, print it, worship it. i have this thread and Paul's 12/13 second vr threads printed and punched in a 3 ring binder i call "the vr6 bible" 

it feels damn good to say no juice, no boost.


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## abbvwVr6 (Sep 12, 2012)

*How do I find Paul's 12/13 second vr thread I tried and I can't find it anywhere...*

read it, print it, worship it. i have this thread and Paul's 12/13 second vr threads printed and punched in a 3 ring binder i call "the vr6 bible"


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## abbvwVr6 (Sep 12, 2012)

*???*

Ignore that post ^.... But how do I find Paul's 12/13 second vr thread, I have tried but can't find it anywhere...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Search the word ALLMOTOR that should have all my 12v threads covered. All the the update ones are in 12v those other two are in the mk3 forum I think.


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

*FV-QR*

Tim hotlinked them in the first post. :thumbup:



I tend to check them every few times I come back from the track, whist scratching my head saying "How the f**k is he going .5 faster then me on the basically the same setup." :laugh:

Witchcraft.


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## abbvwVr6 (Sep 12, 2012)

*Thank you*

Thank you very much!!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I think that myself too, sometimes. It took a long, long time to go 12s on the 262s and I think that is probably my finest accomplishment. It wasnt hard going 12.83 on the 268s after just a few hits. Probably would have gone .4x-.5x easy ha I stuck with it instead of partung.


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

JohnStamos said:


> Tim hotlinked them in the first post. :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What are you running, if you don't mind my asking.


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

crannky said:


> What are you running, if you don't mind my asking.


~13.65 at 99mph. 

Main difference is I am on stock cams and headgasket, but on 22" slicks open diff. Stock longblock to be exact. I don't see 262's and mk4 gasket buying me 4 tenths at this point, as the car makes high 180's whp already. I haven't weighed it, but aside from carbon hood and battery, weights should be close.

On street tires a 14.0 is my best, open diff. 

Car does 14.3's right now at 97mph, full interior, street tires, soundsystem, ect.



Have a worked over head/clearanced pistons waiting on a new set of 288 cams and manifold (AKA me to stop being lazy).


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

What are you going to do for management with the 288's?


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## Hollagraphik (Nov 9, 2005)

JohnStamos said:


> Tim hotlinked them in the first post. :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> I tend to check them every few times I come back from the track, whist scratching my head saying "How the f**k is he going .5 faster then me on the basically the same setup." :laugh:


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

root beer said:


> What are you going to do for management with the 288's?



AFPR, hobbs switches, and a MSD 6al. :laugh:



Not too sure yet really, I have a MS2x sitting around that needs repaired from an old car I might fix and throw on. I try not to spend any real money on this car, as I know the first time I do, it starts the inevitable slope of $$.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Raised rev limiter is worth more then anything else with them, imho.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Yea, that's what i was getting at. I didn't have enough limiter with the 268's toward the end. 288's are going to be worthless without 7600 rpm min.


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## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

All this talk of high rev, what can the stock rotating assembly handle?

My car's head is coming off. Monday my guy will be in contact with a shop to get the porting started. Stock valves, HD springs, stock retainers and keepers, TTs 268 cams (since my guy has an account and is getting them pretty cheap), MK4 head gasket. So far, I'm not doing anything to the block. Rings if it needs them, was considering a 2.9 build but the cost just doesn't seem worth it to me.

Where should I be revving up to to make use of the 268s? 7200? I really don't know if I want to send the stock bottom any higher than that..


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

On a chip I always made my 1-2 shift on the limiter. On standalone 1-2 was in the 8k-8.2k range. Other shifts were.. elsewhere.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Other than 1-2, which you need to beat the **** out of on slicks, i shifted at 6600 or so going down the track with 268's.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

root beer said:


> Yea, that's what i was getting at. I didn't have enough limiter with the 268's toward the end. 288's are going to be worthless without 7600 rpm min.


I used the same shift and launch RPM's with the 288's and the car was quicker.
So, they're not worthless under the limiter, not seeing their full potential is more like it...


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Did you have an sri too?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The purple car never had a sri. Had a real abv when Billy had it and stock or the gutted vgi when I ran it. 

I shifted 6500-6700 with the 262s and 268s for the other gears from what I remember.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

root beer said:


> Did you have an sri too?


As Paul mentioned, I never used anything other than the Euro manifold and any track gains from that alone were highly suspect and questionable. My exhaust manifolds and downpipe were kept totally stock and untouched as well. My set up was a simple one, people often confuse what I was doing with other people's efforts; that's not directed right at you, just in general... the forum hearsay, etc., etc.

eace:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Your setup was so simple I could only go as fast with more weight.:wave:


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## CHersh1088 (Jan 4, 2005)

didn't know if any of you fellow all motor guys would be interested in my s2 metalwerks header but it is for sale.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5815674-FS-S2-Metalwerks-VR6-Custom-Stainless-HEADER

:thumbup:


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

*FV-QR*

I'm looking at it as, even with the current 7200rpm limiter, their should be HUGE gains everywhere in the band I am currently using so there is no downside. Then when I break down and get real management, it will just be the icing on the cake. I did up a head to support them, and already clayed, dry fit, and cut pistons for them, so no turning back now. Just need to get to buying another set since I lent mine out, which turned into selling them.

I still need to make a manifold, but its going to be nothing exciting compared to alot of others setups. No protruding bellmouthes or anything fancy.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

I was shifting just before 6800 with those cams; the few times I did take it higher had me on the limiter too quick which was counter productive and inconsistent (for me). As far as management, it was already mentioned, and I agree, that just running a chip with a raised limiter is going to work well. Techtonics should have an adjusted file for these cams somewhere if you’re looking to get the most out of a chipped ECU, that being said the regular GIAC cam file I used did the job, never acted up, never ran bad, once the off throttle idle was sorted out (ISV, throttle stop, etc.).

I just re-read this; I think I should add powerband details at some point...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

This discussion makes me wish I had the 288s in a motor with good compression. Would have broken the 12.83/198whp curse.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

Zombie motor says third times a charm? Who knows...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Re ring #4 and that motor is gold.. if the rod isn't bent.:wave:


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## Sonic303 (Nov 13, 2009)

So, mk4 spark plug wires work with mk3?


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

ya


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Of all the interesting things one could ask about... :laugh:


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I would just like to add that i just talked someone from going turbo by making 2 statements. 

-You can't bring it to me every week to fix bs problems 
-You're going to need 1000 bucks in the bank at all times 

:laugh:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I personally give everyone that same advice.


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## L. Fopps (Oct 17, 2006)

Precisely why I'm going bigger pistons in my rebuild and keeping it n/a doing some headwork and throwing in DRC 268's and calling it a day. Fully blueprinting the engine though, The micrometer and bore gauge have been going non stop to measure and double check measurements a few times over before the block and head makes it over to the machine shop.


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## wolfens_golf (Dec 30, 2009)

sweet thread:beer:


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## typeSLone (Feb 8, 2002)

Any all motor guys ever try out or see any true gains from a TT 2" downpipe?


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## Tsiqara (Mar 26, 2012)

Again, awesome Thread for everyday life 

Got question and need your kind suggestion from those who run CAI that is bent down like mine is:

I have noticed that my MPG increased dramatically after 2-3 months after CAI Install, at first it was all fine but it seems that this K&N Filter sucks and holds too much dirt from the ground, and sometimes in the rainy day even gets wet. I don't even cry about huge puddles which may kill engine 

* How do you solve those problems? and how often do you clean your filters? Maybe put it back where it should be, but with hot air ? *


This is my CAI Setup:











You can see here a plastic screen in front, which prevents dirt from the front bumper to stick to the filter via air, and its also covered from bottom, from behind there is a plastic Wheel Shield, and still it gets dirt and wet :










This is CAI From the top (Notice that cheap solution of the tube, im still not sure about Turbulence and stuff, pl make suggestion if u can):










Larger View:










P.S Sorry if the PICS are too large, I don't know how to make them smaller


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## typeSLone (Feb 8, 2002)

I clean my filter once a year. My vr6 isn't my daily. It gets driven to the track and on nice days in the spring, summer and fall so I don't really worry about rain or puddles all that much.

Mine is in a mk2 but I have custom ducting feeding air from the fog lamp opening to the filter. The rest of the filter is protected by the fender, wheel liner and lower air guide attached to the bumper. Even being 3/4 covered by metal and plastic shields, it gets dirty pretty fast.

You could always try one of those prefilter wraps that go over the filter. Jeep guys run them over their cone filters to cut back on dirt and dust from the trails clogging up the filter.


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## 8vFox (Apr 4, 2002)

I have an idea floating around in my head and would like some feedback from the resident VR gurus. I've been looking at Water/Meth kits (yes, I'm N/A) and thinking that running one would allow me to run the 100 octane GIAC race tune on 93 pump gas at all times. 
I realize the gains would be minimal and there are many other things to spend that amount of money on, I'm just throwing an idea out there. As an added benefit, I believe the W/M setup could really help in high summer heat. I know the VR runs hot and can take it, just call me paranoid when I look at summer water/oil temps, lol.

Thanks in advance guys.


----------



## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

Use a prefilter on the CAI. I got mine from outerwearsracing.com was about $20. Call them, tell them which filter you have and they will get you the right pre-flter. Also helps repel water. Also if you want a one piece pipe on top google 3" aluminum pipe with a 70 or 75 degree bend, 24", a bunch of turbo piping will come up, I got mine for like $30. Pic does not have prefilter on it.


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## mx3autozam (Nov 24, 2010)

or go on ebay and search "vr6 cold air intake" they are about $30 and just change out the filter for a k&n or aem and works perfect. I have one and very happy with it


----------



## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

mx3autozam said:


> or go on ebay and search "vr6 cold air intake" they are about $30 and just change out the filter for a k&n or aem and works perfect. I have one and very happy with it


Those are usually 2.5" OD.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Xparent Red Tapatalk 2


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## 05mk4gli (Feb 3, 2005)

go to www.verociousmotorsports.com 
get yourself the following:
1x 120* 3" pipe with smaller radius
1x 90* elbow
3x 4 ply couplers 

you can route the 120* bend to use your maf in stock location, eliminating the stock elbow.
then route the 90* with the piece cut from 120* and run that in the fender. 

you can always run the filter in the bay on days that it is raining to prevent from soaking the filter. 

K&N also sells a bag type deal to put over filters


----------



## civilwarhero (Jul 3, 2011)

*Hearty Thanks!*

I just want to take 5 sec to thank "root beer" for one of the most thorough and useful posts I've ever seen on ANYTHING. It took a lot of time and patience to put this whole thing together, but I've found myself referring back to it again and again.
That's one great VW'er there!


----------



## wolfens_golf (Dec 30, 2009)

free bump


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## Jeroentje (Dec 24, 2012)

Does the MK4 Head gasket fit 'straight on' onto a MK3 12V euro-head?

I've got told there needs to be modifications and all, TS tells there should be no mods at all in order to fit. Free extra compesssion is always welcome


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Nothing special about "euro" heads. Drop in as long as the cams arent huge or running aftermarket forged pistons. If you have either of those, check clearances.


----------



## Jeroentje (Dec 24, 2012)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Nothing special about "euro" heads. Drop in as long as the cams arent huge or running aftermarket forged pistons. If you have either of those, check clearances.


Thank you sir. The block itself is basicly stock.


----------



## BumblebVR6 (Nov 22, 2001)

Tsiqara said:


> Again, awesome Thread for everyday life
> 
> Got question and need your kind suggestion from those who run CAI that is bent down like mine is:
> 
> ...


----------



## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

8vFox said:


> I have an idea floating around in my head and would like some feedback from the resident VR gurus. I've been looking at Water/Meth kits (yes, I'm N/A) and thinking that running one would allow me to run the 100 octane GIAC race tune on 93 pump gas at all times.
> I realize the gains would be minimal and there are many other things to spend that amount of money on, I'm just throwing an idea out there. As an added benefit, I believe the W/M setup could really help in high summer heat. I know the VR runs hot and can take it, just call me paranoid when I look at summer water/oil temps, lol.
> 
> Thanks in advance guys.


I don't think that would be a terrible idea.....I'd dyno both setups on the same day for a solid comparison though. Also, you make it sound like water/meth is expensive.....An n/a setup only needs a single nozzle setup, and everything can be had new for $260 (see link below). Because VRs run so hot, water/meth is a great idea for preventing heat soak and generally keeping intake temps lower all the time so you get the most timing advance possible. Use this method in conjunction with the mk4 IAT sensor for the best results.

Snow Performance stage 1 kit


----------



## max302 (Apr 7, 2010)

If it would have been strictly a temps thing, external oil cooler and low temp t-stat would have gotten the job done without the hassle of having to fill your reservoir up. 

Are there significant gains to running the race gas tune? Even with an mk4 HG, I don't see how anything over 93 would be need to pull top timing.


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## Jeroentje (Dec 24, 2012)

Wrap your exaust for lower 'hood' temps. Saves alot of heat soak also.


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## QuattroDriven (Aug 25, 2008)

All this VR talk  Wish I had one. Ill soon be changing that though:thumbup:


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

Well I finally got around to reading all of this, excellent everybody :thumbup:



JohnStamos said:


> Bump them up to 4bar, or even 5bar and they are plenty big enough. It's simple math.


 The only thing I could think to add, someone told me fuel volume was the difference of the square root of pressure change and the square root of 5 is about 30% more than the square root of 3, not as simple as I thought. (which I've posted wrong somewhere and been off the grid for a couple..) When e85 is stochiometric it is faster and the vrs still seem to pull timing at operating temp so the gas tunes should benefit I would think.. I think it would be worth a try if even just blended with an AFPR and a wideband. I can't remember if the stock stuff holds 75psi to redline wot..


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## europarkingonly (Jan 7, 2011)

as far as the mk4 head gasket what year should I ask for just any ole mk4?


----------



## 05mk4gli (Feb 3, 2005)

europarkingonly said:


> as far as the mk4 head gasket what year should I ask for just any ole mk4?


 2000 12v vr6 

Sent from my LG-VM696 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Volkska (Feb 25, 2013)

People weren't kidding when they said this was the best 12v VR6 thread. Thank you for all the amazing info! I feel like I have a much better understanding and more confident in building my VR :laugh:


----------



## elveloz69 (Aug 26, 2006)

:thumbup: good info


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## bobomb (Sep 19, 2011)

This thread was a good read.

:thumbup:


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## veersixxx (Aug 3, 2006)

13.169 @ 106.44 mph w/ a 1.908 60 ft. 2240 lbs chassis weigh in, on Mickey Thompson et drag slicks with 12psi, at a 4500-5k launch! Ran awesome today!! Beat my calculated et by 3 hundredths of a second.

I call this thread & along with (need_a_vr6) Paul's how to make a 12 & 13 second vr. "THE VR6 BIBLE"


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## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

veersixxx said:


> 13.169 @ 106.44 mph w/ a 1.908 60 ft. 2240 lbs chassis weigh in, on Mickey Thompson et drag slicks with 12psi, at a 4500-5k launch! Ran awesome today!! Beat my calculated et by 3 hundredths of a second.
> 
> I call this thread & along with (need_a_vr6) Paul's how to make a 12 & 13 second vr. "THE VR6 BIBLE"


Where's Paul's thread, and why no sticky, and why isn't this thread sticky yet. MODS!


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## max302 (Apr 7, 2010)

GTIVRon said:


> Where's Paul's thread, and why no sticky, and why isn't this thread sticky yet. MODS!


I second this proposal. Those these threads need to be stickied.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

GTIVRon said:


> Where's Paul's thread, and why no sticky, and why isn't this thread sticky yet. MODS!


I thought they were linked earlier in the thread. 

[edit]

They are, bottom of Tim's second long, long post, hiding a bit:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3294256
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3862384

[/edit]


Search this forum for ALLMOTOR and you come up with some pretty good gems from some of my, now dated, antics with the MK3.


----------



## rudygetz (Aug 22, 2006)

I tried to send Root Beer a PM but his inbox is full. I was hoping someone in here could help. 

Hi there, I was hoping you could answer a quick question. 

I've had a GIAC chip in my mk3 VR6 for a while. I'm getting ready to install Schrick 268's soon. Do you think the GIAC chip as is should work fine? I was looking through the GIAC page and it shows this link for "Golf ® ( MK3 1991 - 1999 ) Stage X2cam ECU Software". I don't remember ever seeing that before. I have an intake, and will be installing a 3" exhaust as noted in this thread... 

Thanks for your help! 

http://www.giacusa.com/products/sof...&id=103%20&rec_hw=exhaust%20&req_hw=268%20cam


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## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

The chip will only alter idle. You don't really need it


----------



## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

HaydenVR6 said:


> The chip will only alter idle. You don't really need it


 I called GIAC after installing my 264's and was told the same thing. They said the cam file is more for really aggressive cams where a higher idle is needed to prevent the car from stalling under deceleration or when they are touchy/rough idling. Said if I don't have an issue then the cam-chip won't give me anything other than a higher idle.


----------



## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I thought they were linked earlier in the thread.
> 
> [edit]
> 
> ...


 Seems I just need weight reduction. 

Car has been in a body shop for a while... Going to look pristine outside... That's why I'm so torn on stripping it as far down as I can or keeping the interior in good condition. The added weight for taking turns (stress braces, heavy as f**k sway bar....) I guess forces me to go stripped down to have any hope of bringing the car below 2700 lbs. 

I daily drive the car when it's running so 3.94 r&p may not be for me.... Otherwise I have an LSD and clutch kit along with 14 lb flywheel waiting to go in. Also doing stock sized slotted brakes and braided steel lines, and looking for some lighter 15x7.5 rims (still on stock 15x7s that can only fit 205 wide wheel) but again that's with taking turns in mind. 

I guess I'll ditch the A/C (hasn't worked since I had the car) and PS. I'll probably keep most of the safety weight in it (RE bars, don't have any airbags anyway) since I daily drive it in N. TX.


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## typeSLone (Feb 8, 2002)

GTIVRon said:


> I daily drive the car when it's running so 3.94 r&p may not be for me.... Otherwise I have an LSD and clutch kit along with 14 lb flywheel waiting to go in.


 
I have a 3.94 r&p with a quaife diff and .71 5th gear in my ~2400lb a2vr6. I don't daily the car but in the summer time I will drive it a few days a week to work. The 3.94 is perfectly livable for a daily driver, it really wakes the car up. Highway driving I see 28-29 mpg usually and city driving I get around 24-25mpg. I could probably get more out of the car if I drove it easy, I get that mileage while driving very spirited.


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

GTIVRon said:


> Seems I just need weight reduction.
> 
> Car has been in a body shop for a while... Going to look pristine outside... That's why I'm so torn on stripping it as far down as I can or keeping the interior in good condition. The added weight for taking turns (stress braces, heavy as f**k sway bar....) I guess forces me to go stripped down to have any hope of bringing the car below 2700 lbs.
> 
> ...


 Sways are heavy, and, if I were you, I'd run the stock rear bar with no front. It rotates lovely, understeers less than with a front sway and rides better due to more front suspension Independence. Plus you save all that weight. The prerequisite is a set of fairly stiff coils. Won't work with most OTS spring/strut combos. 

Also, I'd go with a 10 lb flywheel. It's awesome in the first 3 gears :beer: 

Talk to folks who've gone that route. They will likely attest to it. The only folks I ever hear say something against it throw theory and bull**** at you, having never driven or ridden in a car set up as such.


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## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

crannky said:


> Sways are heavy, and, if I were you, I'd run the stock rear bar with no front. It rotates lovely, understeers less than with a front sway and rides better due to more front suspension Independence. Plus you save all that weight. The prerequisite is a set of fairly stiff coils. Won't work with most OTS spring/strut combos.
> 
> Also, I'd go with a 10 lb flywheel. It's awesome in the first 3 gears :beer:
> 
> Talk to folks who've gone that route. They will likely attest to it. The only folks I ever hear say something against it throw theory and bull**** at you, having never driven or ridden in a car set up as such.


 I don't have a front sway bar. I have a stiff rear bar. I'm happy with my rates and the height (completely flat front control arms) for what I plan on doing with the car. The Corrado chassis is really sloppy, I found the rear stress brace made a helluva difference. The way the car is now it rotates pretty damn easily, but very predictably. 

I drove a VR6 with a 9lb flywheel and did not like how light it was. That's why I bought the 14 lb. 

I may later consider the 3.94, but would want to get the tdi 5th first. May build another trans down the road, we'll see. 

Thanks for the input though!


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## veersixxx (Aug 3, 2006)

3.94 r&p with ccm 1st-4th really wakes up a vr6. I run the .795 5th and in 5th it is very much comparable to factory.


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## mx3autozam (Nov 24, 2010)

yes 3.94 for sure. i wouldn't even consider a vr with stock gearing. even better is when you swap the 1.345 3rd from a 9a 16v with the 3.94 ring and pinion. 

as a matter of fact it works so awesome it grenades the diff pin right out of the diff. so if you do this a lsd is a must. i need to get one now.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I'm about to put a stock motor in my Harliquin golf, and i'm having a real tough time deciding between the 3.68 and 3.94. I remember first gear feeling less twitchy, and 5th being less loud with the 3.67. However, my roommates have an e46 m3, a 335i, and an s2k, so that makes me want the shorter gears


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## the mad conductor (Nov 12, 2009)

root beer said:


> I'm about to put a stock motor in my Harliquin golf, and i'm having a real tough time deciding between the 3.68 and 3.94. I remember first gear feeling less twitchy, and 5th being less loud with the 3.67. However, my roommates have an e46 m3, a 335i, and an s2k, so that makes me want the shorter gears


short gears in an s2k you say? watch this video...

http://www.streetfire.net/video/simply-honda-all-motor_149697.htm

the shorter the better :wave:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

3.67 with a stock 5th or 3.94 with the .755. IMHO of course.


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## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

**** you all. Where can I find a 3.94 r&p? I have sourced a TDI 5th (is that .755 Paul?) but can't find a ring and pinion..


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I got my last one from a parted early 1.8t 02j, they are out there. Early 16v/g60 cars had them too. The .755 is the stock tdi and lots of guys upgrade to even lower ratios. I need like a .45 with the 4.24.


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## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I got my last one from a parted early 1.8t 02j, they are out there. Early 16v/g60 cars had them too. The .755 is the stock tdi and lots of guys upgrade to even lower ratios. I need like a .45 with the 4.24.


Cool. Still trying to source a ring and pinion gear (3.94) but I have money (now down) on a 5th gear out of an 01 Jetta Diesel.

I was told to check out eurospec for the R&P but they don't have it listed separately on their site, so I emailed them. Do you have a set for sale by chance? Once again, I hate you for making me spend more money on a care I hate to love. :laugh:


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## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

Auto tech sell them. But for $400


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

GTIVRon said:


> Do you have a set for sale by chance? Once again, I hate you for making me spend more money on a care I hate to love. :laugh:


I do but I keep a set of everything around for testing purposes, none spare at the moment. I'll keep an ear out locally. I hear you on the hate to love part, it goes with all Corrados.


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## rudygetz (Aug 22, 2006)

GTIVRon said:


> I called GIAC after installing my 264's and was told the same thing. They said the cam file is more for really aggressive cams where a higher idle is needed to prevent the car from stalling under deceleration or when they are touchy/rough idling. Said if I don't have an issue then the cam-chip won't give me anything other than a higher idle.


thanks! ive installed the cams and no problems with the giac chip.


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## typeSLone (Feb 8, 2002)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I got my last one from a parted early 1.8t 02j, they are out there. Early 16v/g60 cars had them too. The .755 is the stock tdi and lots of guys upgrade to even lower ratios. I need like a .45 with the 4.24.


I run a 3.94 with stock ccm 1st-4th and a .717 5th gear. The rpm drop is a bit much going into 5th but I can get 28-29mpg easily crusing at 80mph and still pass people on the highway without the need to downshift to 4th.


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## #1~STUNNA (May 4, 2002)

Awesome thread!:thumbup: you guys should make another thread like this for R32 VR's :thumbup:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

R32 setup is easy. Install motor, run 12s.


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## 05mk4gli (Feb 3, 2005)

What's the best fifth gear to go with a 3.94? 
.755 or. 717


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

.755 you can still have some torque without a downshift. The .71 you will want to and you will really notice shifting into it. It would really be a good 6th but for a 5th it seems wide. Maybe with a 4.24 final.


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## veersixxx (Aug 3, 2006)

I like my .795 5th on the 3.94 r&p still pulls decent and is comparable to factory setup .838 on 3.38 r&p.. Roughly 70 mph 3k rpm


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## typeSLone (Feb 8, 2002)

need_a_VR6 said:


> .755 you can still have some torque without a downshift. The .71 you will want to and you will really notice shifting into it. It would really be a good 6th but for a 5th it seems wide. Maybe with a 4.24 final.


With a 3.94 final and a .71 5th I definitely notice the rpm drop when I shift into 5th on the highway. But I rarely feel the need to downshift to 4th to pass someone. Average speed on most north jersey highways hovers around 75-80mph so it may have something to do with that, the rpms are a little higher at that point so the power is there too. I could see cruising at 60-65mph and wanting to downshift to pass someone.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

"You see, i'm from Jersey."

That'll cover about anything.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Very, very true.


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## typeSLone (Feb 8, 2002)

root beer said:


> "You see, i'm from Jersey."
> 
> That'll cover about anything.


Yeah pretty much


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## VWpowa (Mar 4, 2000)

3.94 and peloquin are the two best mods I have done. It's taken me almost 15 years to do it. Really transformed the car. Got mine from an 02j that had a spun 5th gear.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2


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## Fabriccio (May 30, 2010)

anyone have any recommendations on who makes a good valves and springs? Im looking for a little more than stock.

also will a top half of the intake manifold fit and bolt up to lower portion from an obd1 onto an obd2?


----------



## the mad conductor (Nov 12, 2009)

Fabriccio said:


> anyone have any recommendations on who makes a good valves and springs? Im looking for a little more than stock.
> 
> also will a top half of the intake manifold fit and bolt up to lower portion from an obd1 onto an obd2?


OEM valves work fine, and autotech valve springs are good.. from what i hear theyre rebranded schrick :thumbup:


----------



## jeanofl (Mar 13, 2009)




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## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

Anyone swapped Bosch EV6 injectors in place of the originals? 

I need to get the original set rebuilt, I can pick up a brand new set of 220cc EV6's for about the same price. Just wondering if anyone else has done it.

Thanks!

Brendan


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

Alright, I've brought this concept up in a couple other threads. Never get any feedback.

I want to build a SRI manifold from the stock one. I have Schrick 268s and the T2 CAI. Would like to move the peak closer to 7000 RPM and hopefully pick up 5 or 10 HP without losing anything beneath the curve. Goal is 2.9 clone power, pushed closer to redline.

What I used was the site below to get some relatively close calculations. Runner length should be tuned to 3rd pulse based off what the site gave me and using 1.96 as the runner diameter. 

http://www.velocity-of-sound.com/velocity_of_sound/calculator3.htm

What I'm thinking is:

1. ported upper and lower

2. Cut stock runners down 2.6 inches from the 420mm (16.5) inches they are to the intake valve stock. (13.9 inches is what it gave me for 7000 RPM peak.)

3. Keep runner compensation lengths intact and relative.

4. Reshape the plenum to get rid of the sharp angles. 

5. Re-weld plenum to runners


What do you guys who have run or know more about SRIs think of this, "I'm broke, my car is broke, but I'm gonna do this on the cheap while it's in pieces", project?

I know it's not ideal, mostly because of the runners being cast from squarish to round, no velocity stacks, not a straight shot, but I'm thinking as far as packaging it's kind of the ideal starting point if you don't want to deal with crazy radiator rigs and slim fans, etc.


See that nubVR did something similar to my idea. Or maybe we both had the same idea.


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## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

I got as far as cutting up a manifold in my SRI project. Same idea as yours. But had a few issues trying to get a suitable size plenum to fit in and not obstruct anything. 

Don't get me wrong it can be done. Just a little bit of creativity in plenum shape to achieve the goal. 


"I only post on Facebook if I know i am going to get likes" - M


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Seems like you're on the right track. You will want a much bigger plenum than stock for rpm, and upsize the TB inlet a bit and run a bigger TB. Packaging wise you might want the TB mounted in the center in the rear with the intake pipe going 120deg toward the MAF.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

what cams?


----------



## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

root beer said:


> what cams?


Schrick 268s.

Thanks guys. I thought I was crazy for minute, no one comments on **** like this in most other threads. Gonna do my best to get this done and get some back to back results. 

:beer:


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

HaydenVR6 said:


> I got as far as cutting up a manifold in my SRI project. Same idea as yours. But had a few issues trying to get a suitable size plenum to fit in and not obstruct anything.
> 
> Don't get me wrong it can be done. Just a little bit of creativity in plenum shape to achieve the goal.
> 
> ...





need_a_VR6 said:


> Seems like you're on the right track. You will want a much bigger plenum than stock for rpm, and upsize the TB inlet a bit and run a bigger TB. Packaging wise you might want the TB mounted in the center in the rear with the intake pipe going 120deg toward the MAF.


Interesting. I was thinking that the plenum was going to be the least changed/modded piece. OK, off to research calculating plenum volume.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Plenum volume is important but a strange thing to figure out/get right. Bigger with increasing revs is one thing you can count on. The more torturous the geometry the bigger as well.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

i'd try something like this for a broad power band, one side ~5500 other ~7000, this plenum looks big enough, not sure how me7 would deal with that but seems like it would outweigh



hyperformancevw said:


> heres one i whipped up...it does the job. im going to build a proper one for this car eventually
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

EL DRIFTO said:


> i'd try something like this for a broad power band, one side ~5500 other ~7000, this plenum looks big enough, not sure how me7 would deal with that but seems like it would outweigh


Plenum isn't tapered and the runners look a few inches short. I wouldn't mind for a turbo application, but it looks like the typical log that loses power below the curve and continues to make power after redline... Where you can't access it.

The whole problem for the NA crowd is proper length, compensated runners. No one makes an off-the-shelf solution.

I honestly think the runners from a VGI with a fabbed, center-fed, bolt-on plenum would be better than what I'm proposing. They are round and compensated-length, but I don't know how they compare to the stock mani. They may need to be shortened and re-welded too, to get a power peak closer to fuel cut.











:beer:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The plenum on the manifold above is most likely way too small to keep even distribution of air as the revs go up. You need that air to really lose velocity to feed the first two cylinders.

I saw pretty decent top end with the vgi with an open (no flapper) plenum, even with small cams. I would say its' worth 5-7hp up top above stock. Could a bigger plenum help? Maybe, but slightly shorter runners could help too. Hard to say. 

You won't see an off the shelf solution for these cars that works really well, too few that care.


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> The plenum on the manifold above is most likely way too small to keep even distribution of air as the revs go up. You need that air to really lose velocity to feed the first two cylinders.
> 
> I saw pretty decent top end with the vgi with an open (no flapper) plenum, even with small cams. I would say its' worth 5-7hp up top above stock. Could a bigger plenum help? Maybe, but slightly shorter runners could help too. Hard to say.
> 
> You won't see an off the shelf solution for these cars that works really well, too few that care.


What do you think about the VGI center section as SRI runners idea?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Might be interesting.


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Might be interesting.


Is mystery and vagueness your super power?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Having never done it before, that is about a good answer as I could give. 

I designed my own from scratch putting everything I know into it. Until it blows my mind with the power it helps make, I can't share much other then supporting theories and what I have tried thus far.


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## 98GTI_VR6 (Jan 21, 2011)

*Update my vehicle*

Starting off saying this thread=badass
I just recently swapped my 2.8 for a built 3.0 wiseco piston engine I got off a buddy for like 500$ and took my lw flywheel out n replaced it with the stock one but car feels like it has plenty more torque, only thing is I keep having problems with the rear motor mount, either the top bolt breaks of the 4 to the motor backs out or snaps I have bfi inserts .5 should I upgrade?


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

There's no reason that should be happening unless you're missing another mount, and the motor is moving around ALOT. Changing stiffness of mounts won't fix that.


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## APR WP (Oct 17, 2013)

*Help me please!!*

Best Thread EVER!!I feel like a VR6 pro now,now for my problem,I'm driving a Mk3 OBD2 VR6,276 cams p&p head Brospeed header 83.5mm bore stock injector with K&N cone filter and stock intake manifolds.She pulls really strong till 4000rpm then after that she seems to struggle to rev it feels like she's running lean can hardly rev to 6000rpm.I'm still running stock fuel pump and 3 bar fpr can you guys please help me.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Could be one of a million things. Check compression, do vag-com logs with timing, maf g/s etc, check the AFR, dyno...

The bigger the motor is the more it'll struggle to breathe up top. Stock manifolds and a big motor is a torque-y combo.


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## APR WP (Oct 17, 2013)

*Help me please!!*

My Vag com don't connect to my ECU,I've done a compression test and all cylinders is good I guess dyno is the best bet,do you think a 4 bar fpr and a 4 bar inline fuel pump is worth a try before I go to the dyno?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I would diagnose what's wrong before throwing parts at it. Check fuel pressure as well, both base and under load.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Yea, and i wouldn't post your issues in a performance thread. :thumbup:


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## APR WP (Oct 17, 2013)

My apologies,thanks for the help.


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## BigTimBigTurbo (Aug 13, 2007)

:thumbup:


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## ajhvw93 (Oct 26, 2009)

APR WP said:


> Best Thread EVER!!I feel like a VR6 pro now,now for my problem,I'm driving a Mk3 OBD2 VR6,276 cams p&p head Brospeed header 83.5mm bore stock injector with K&N cone filter and stock intake manifolds.She pulls really strong till 4000rpm then after that she seems to struggle to rev it feels like she's running lean can hardly rev to 6000rpm.I'm still running stock fuel pump and 3 bar fpr can you guys please help me.


Like said above check everything out. I would get a 3 or 5 angle valve job. To feed the larger diameter bores


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

did the iat sensor on my almost stock vr. it works great seems to have added lil pep in its step 



THANKS ! ( NEED A VR6) GREAT WRITE UP! :beer: cheers to all for this thread input its one of the most helpfull threads i have taken my time to read


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

BTW I ONLY PAID 7.50 USD. FOR MY SENSOR BNIB !! PM.. FOR THIS INFO :laugh: im a budget builder :laugh:


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## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

crannky said:


> Alright, I've brought this concept up in a couple other threads. Never get any feedback.
> 
> I want to build a SRI manifold from the stock one. I have Schrick 268s and the T2 CAI. Would like to move the peak closer to 7000 RPM and hopefully pick up 5 or 10 HP without losing anything beneath the curve. Goal is 2.9 clone power, pushed closer to redline.
> 
> ...



To save you the time that manifold is for sale now, Justin built that for me a few years ago. 
We did Dyno it on my buddies vr6 and it started shining at 6000 RPM all the way to fuel cut. Made around 15whp from 6000-7200rpm over a stock manifold. That was with a stock lower intake, I'm selling with a ported one. Also buddy already had 263 cams and a TT chip.
Before 6000rpm it had virtually no loss in tq or hp. That being said it's probably a lot more useful to all motor guys than boosted, as everyone wants a SRI for more room and away from the turbo. 
link to manifold 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6152415-FS-Custom-Intake-manifold-for-12V-VR6

btw this thread rocks


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## Rye Toast (Dec 22, 2011)

Awesome thread:thumbup:


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## VR6 GLX Man (May 20, 2008)

After 2 years of being without a Vr6 I'm back, after I get my engine sorted out I'll be on here again.


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

Have a simple question ...

So I've done a few of these mods ( thanks for the tips btw ) OK so dyno'd the 12v mk3 I call my car she pulled a 167.1 whp. 168.3 ft.lb trq is this good for a mostly stock (97 vr6 174k) ????

Mods include :
ITG filter @ end of stock elbow ( intake) w/ EUROSPORT Heat shield) 
GIAC chip non cam profile 
custom exhaust @ 2 1/4 piping w/stock header and down-pipe 

And the 1.8t iat sensor 


Just want to know if that's a good baseline to start with or is that a bit low for what it is opcorn:
Any advice would be great


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Sounds right, what kind of dyno was it?

155-165whp is what I would call a normal range for chip/intake/exhaust on these cars in good health without a dyno that reads absurdly high.


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

My b I thought I put that up there ( DynoJet ) I'll load up the print-out pic* 


Screw cheap catch cans btw lol I had a cheap one and it blew the oil dip stick out with about a qrt of oil behind it lol to much crank pressure due to small hoses I had and the non vented catch can , so I was told ..... so removal of the can is in progress


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Seems nice and strong. You never really do know dyno to dyno though. 

This is why we race


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

root beer said:


> This is why we race


The track can't lie and doesn't pull punches!!

My favorite catch can is still a 3/4" heater hose into a big gatorade bottle. Never let me down.


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

I plan on hitting the track soon but, I'm trying to decide if I should run the all season falkens or go out and buy some bfg's I'm just trying to help the car perform at its best knowing that I shouldn't expect too much from not having too much... but assuming better grip would help / btw i wouldnt be spending much as i can get the bfg's for about 170.00 for the set of 2


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

O and for the catch can it was a basic cheaply made one from eBay cost 12.00 bucks and found out why lol so yea its out of the car now back to the oil in the tb guess I'll just clean it as usual


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## frickingphil (Feb 24, 2009)

edit: helpful thread.


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## CrAzY_dUb (Jul 17, 2007)

Right now I'm in the same boat of root beet. I had installed 3.68 and 3.94 under my bed ! I want shorted gear but with 3.94 I think the 1st gear is too short and personally I dont like that ! In too many all motor race car I see that the 1st gear it's "long", 2nd short, 3rd short and 4th "long".

here are two set up that I did with gear calculator, wish one do you like more?

Tire size 205/50/15
3.94 final drive

1st Gear: Ratio:3.3 MPH:38
2nd Gear: Ratio:1.944 MPH:65 
3rd Gear: Ratio:1.345 MPH:93 
4th Gear: Ratio:1.034 MPH:121 
5th Gear: Ratio:0.795 MPH:158 

3.65 final drive

1st Gear: Ratio:3.3 MPH:41 
2nd Gear: Ratio:2.071 MPH:65 
3rd Gear: Ratio:1.429 MPH:95 
4th Gear: Ratio:1.034 MPH:131 
5th Gear: Ratio:0.838 MPH:162

I make 203whp with bolt's, 268DRC cams, 13lbs flywheel, throttle, intake lower and manifold ported, 2.9clone and giac, with A/c and P/s and ran [email protected] with poor tires :thumbdown: Only removed rear, passenger seat, spare tire and tools. Now I get a pair mickey thompson and soon I'm going to the track again. Thanks !!!


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Sounds like a well pieced together setup!

I ended up with the 3.94 in my trans with a stock motor and bolt on's. I'm really glad i went shorter.

Being in a heavier car, it isn't just blowing the tires off on street tires like the black car did, but we'll see now that it's got some cams, port work, and some focused weight reduction. I doubt i'll be going back to the 3.68 anytime soon.


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## Light on Fuel (Mar 1, 2011)

This is a long a long thread, so forgive me if this has already been covered. But it looks like this is primarily focused on drag racing set up. I'm clueless when it comes to gearing, so what would be an ideal set up for autoX? I'm assuming that it would be slightly different than 1/4m racing since you never get out of 2nd gear in an autoX. 

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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Heck of a thought. Changing gearing in autox might change your class negatively. Those guys like to build rules around not modifying your car.

What mph are you expecting to go down to/up to. I'd be more worried about getting too low in 2nd.


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## Light on Fuel (Mar 1, 2011)

We have really long courses here (The Meadowlands, NJ) and I've gotten as high as 55mph. But most times, I only get about midway in 2nd before jumping on the binders. The lowest in 2nd that I've seen is about 1,500. 

I'm not too worried about my class because they've already got me running with BMers (for some strange reason) which should be in a different class, IMO. 

But due to the nature of autoX, it seems more than logical that everything 1/4 racers do to reduce pass times should also benefit the autoX'er. 

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## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

need_a_VR6 said:


> The track can't lie and doesn't pull punches!!
> 
> My favorite catch can is still a 3/4" heater hose into a big gatorade bottle. Never let me down.


What?? LOL!! Got to try this one!! :laugh::laugh:


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Light on Fuel said:


> We have really long courses here (The Meadowlands, NJ) and I've gotten as high as 55mph. But most times, I only get about midway in 2nd before jumping on the binders. The lowest in 2nd that I've seen is about 1,500.
> 
> I'm not too worried about my class because they've already got me running with BMers (for some strange reason) which should be in a different class, IMO.
> 
> ...


Based on those gear calculator numbers up there, i'd be going with the shorter FD. Also keep in mind, you can't just put the longer or shorter 2nd gear in. You can either have the short 1st and 2nd from 4cyl transmissions, or the long 1st and 2nd from 6cyl transmissions. The input shaft has 1st and 2nd formed onto it, and they are not removable. Though, there was rumor of drag race guys welding input shafts to get a short 2nd with a long 1st, but idk, you try to get a guy from jersey to talk about his setup.

Less weight and more area under your curve is always better.

The biggest thing is that in drag racing, we don't want ANY rear weight. I think the first thing i'd be playing with is getting weight off the front of the car for you. Lighter fans, cut front rebar, lw battery, etc etc. From accounts of guys road coursing vr6 cars, I've heard nothing but brake heat/power issues. However, i don't think many of them take weight as seriously as i like to. 

I can't really vouch for auto-x and road course vw guys though. IDK why anybody would get serious about cornering a FWD car with a beam across the back.


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## Light on Fuel (Mar 1, 2011)

root beer said:


> From accounts of guys road coursing vr6 cars, I've heard nothing but brake heat/power issues.


I never experienced any brake issues even on the hottest of days because the runs are no more than a minute long. Also, I have EBC pads and rotors (which have great cold bite). So temps are never an issue unless it's a very small run group where you don't have much cool down time. 



root beer said:


> I can't really vouch for auto-x and road course vw guys though. IDK why anybody would get serious about cornering a FWD car with a beam across the back.


 Unfortunately, this is what I have to go racing in, so it is what it is. The solid rear isn't the greatest asset but it does allow for easy rotation to the point where I had to work hard on tuning out the oversteer when I switched to R comps. Plus, it's fun beating the BMers and Hyundai Genesis coupes that show up all the time. 



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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Light on Fuel said:


> I never experienced any brake issues even on the hottest of days because the runs are no more than a minute long. Also, I have EBC pads and rotors (which have great cold bite). So temps are never an issue unless it's a very small run group where you don't have much cool down time.
> 
> Unfortunately, this is what I have to go racing in, so it is what it is. The solid rear isn't the greatest asset but it does allow for easy rotation to the point where I had to work hard on tuning out the oversteer when I switched to R comps. Plus, it's fun beating the BMers and Hyundai Genesis coupes that show up all the time.
> 
> ...


Nice man. Glad you have a good time at it


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

i run stock wheels road race tires on the back, hard radials on the front to fix it but i’ve got the rear suspension strapped.. not looking to change car, here’s what I run for the mk3

THE ROAD RACING AND THE SHINE REAL STREET SUSPENSION
http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45989 driving slow car fast lol
explains why raising the front above stock is better than lowering it w a rear beam :flame suit:

i like the driving schools, much learning, practice, seat time


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## Light on Fuel (Mar 1, 2011)

EL DRIFTO said:


> i run stock wheels road race tires on the back, hard radials on the front to fix it but i’ve got the rear suspension strapped.. not looking to change car, here’s what I run for the mk3
> 
> THE ROAD RACING AND THE SHINE REAL STREET SUSPENSION
> http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45989 driving slow car fast lol
> ...


Thanks for the link: Looks like a good read. 
Driving schools are great. I've done a couple and quickly found that you can get almost a full season of seat time by just attending one school. I learned the hard way (and very quickly) how cars that are too low handle like poop. 

But back to the topic at hand. I once helped my cousin swap the TB in his Neon. Turns out that the TB found in the automatic trans were larger than the ones found in a manual trans. Is that the same case for our cars?

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## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

Light on Fuel said:


> Thanks for the link: Looks like a good read.
> Driving schools are great. I've done a couple and quickly found that you can get almost a full season of seat time by just attending one school. I learned the hard way (and very quickly) how cars that are too low handle like poop.
> 
> But back to the topic at hand. I once helped my cousin swap the TB in his Neon. Turns out that the TB found in the automatic trans were larger than the ones found in a manual trans. Is that the same case for our cars?
> ...


Unfortunately not for automatic or manual transmissions, unless if you source a TB and intake manifold from a European spec VR6 and fit it to your intake. I know for a fact that the MK3 VR6 had different size throttle bodies and restrictions within the intake manifold for the U.S. & Canadian Spec engines. The TB on the European spec engines were larger and if you can get a complete 2.9 VR6 intake system (TB & Intake manifold) from a European spec Corrado VR6 then you scored big time.


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## Light on Fuel (Mar 1, 2011)

Boogie_manVR6 said:


> Unfortunately not for automatic or manual transmissions, unless if you source a TB and intake manifold from a European spec VR6 and fit it to your intake. I know for a fact that the MK3 VR6 had different size throttle bodies and restrictions within the intake manifold for the U.S. & Canadian Spec engines. The TB on the European spec engines were larger and if you can get a complete 2.9 VR6 intake system (TB & Intake manifold) from a European spec Corrado VR6 then you scored big time.


That is unfortunate. Even worse, at least for me anyway, is that I have an '01. So a clone manifold will do me no good. 

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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The "2.9" tb is no bigger, just no ramps in it. The euro 2.9 intake with a bigger plenum hasnt really made big gains either. Clones don't seem to do much better. The plenum size isnt the only restriction. 

The afp manifolds should flow quite well. 

I ran a 75mm Mustang tb on a gutted vgi. That needed some help to get tip in to be smooth.


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## Light on Fuel (Mar 1, 2011)

need_a_VR6 said:


> The "2.9" tb is no bigger, just no ramps in it. The euro 2.9 intake with a bigger plenum hasnt really made big gains either. Clones don't seem to do much better. The plenum size isnt the only restriction.
> 
> The afp manifolds should flow quite well.
> 
> I ran a 75mm Mustang tb on a gutted vgi. That needed some help to get tip in to be smooth.


With regard to flow: Has anyone seen any worthwhile gains with an unequal flow header? I was all about it when I first saw it. 
Also, I'm venturing to guess that my CAI isn't helping me much on terms of punching out of the hole. 

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## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

Cold air intakes sacrifices lots of bottom end torque. I've ran an exhaust and a stock intake with K&N direct fit filer and ran quite well. Cold air intakes can also cause premature failure of MAF sensor. The CAI works better at night and at engine speeds above 4000 rpm.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

The design of the VR6 might have some compromises when it comes to unequal length headers. The intake and exhaust ports have their design to balance out the effect of short and long intake and exhaust runners. Therefore wouldn't make no sense to go with unequal length headers. I don't see any unequal length headers giving you an extra edge over regular 6-2-1 headers.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Light on Fuel (Mar 1, 2011)

Boogie_manVR6 said:


> I don't see any unequal length headers giving you an extra edge over regular 6-2-1 headers.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


That's good to know. I can't justify the price if it doesn't make much, if any, increase. 


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Boogieman has a lot of compex answers, and asks a lot of simple questions. 

For intakes I have some old dyno sheets I'd have to dig up, but in the meantime... Going from filter on maf with headlight to removing the headlight was worth a consistent .15s et advantage. The prototype Turn2 intake did just as well as the filter on maf w headlight out. A solid, repeatable gain. If anything a long tube cai will help retain low end torque as well as help top end. 

As far as headers go... I have yet to dyno or run any with giains vs ported stock manifolds. Though I think the right header on the right setup could make a big difference.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Yea, let's talk about proven stuff in here please, boogie especially.


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## Light on Fuel (Mar 1, 2011)

Please help me understand this, because it sounds slightly counterintuitive. I'm not a mechanic or engineer so please bear with me. 

I was always under the impression that my very long CAI would be a detriment on the bottom end, whereas something like an SRI would give me better punch out of the hole up until mid, where it would inevitably run out of breath. Added to that long intake run is my long intake runners from the TB to the plenum or whatever you call it. 

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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Dont confuse manifold runner length (post tb) with intake pipe length. The former is a much larger influencer of powerband than the latter. 

In general the longer the length the more low end the shorter the more top end. There are about a dozen caveats to that statement but generally it holds true.

The afp is nice in a way with the long runners and changeover valve gor the best of both worlds.


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## Light on Fuel (Mar 1, 2011)

So just for my own edification; the throttle rod had the runner length long for bottom and then short for top, yes?
So would that mean ITB's would improve the top or are they just a novelty type set up?

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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I'm just too damn tough for a plastic intake manifold


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

On the afp with the manifold in "torque" mode flow is only through the runners to the main plenum. With it in "power mode" the secondary runners and plenum are open making the effective runner length shorter (due to some fancy pulse tuning). Check out the ssp http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_212.pdf it should explain some things.


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## Light on Fuel (Mar 1, 2011)

Great! Thanks so much for the link. 

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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

Got a Q: hope you guys can help , OK so I know everyone has crap loads of opinions on oils but has anyone really noticed a weight that keeps temps down ? 

What are your daily oil temps using the gauge in the car I'm anywhere from 220-240 (240 ) was my Max and I'm not liking that so I need a solution or am I just looking into something that should be never minded I have 10/30 now... 

Plz do help if you can 

I'm sure I can read that whole oil thread but will be spun in circles so I'd rather ask the guys who really know there cars 

Again thanks :thumbup:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Oil temps wont change with viscosity. Make sure your cooing system is in good order and if its still too hot, get an external cooler. I don't think your numbers sound atypical though.


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## Light on Fuel (Mar 1, 2011)

Thanks again for the link: Very good insight on a clever design solution. 

Since there's over 600+ posts on here, let me just ask instead: What kind of Tq./HP has been realized from a fully built N/A motor? I have a spare motor and am considering rebuilding it using tried and true methods (if worthwhile). I'm talking about punching out the cylinders, changing the stroke, changing piston profile (if I can find different ones), balancing the crank, extrude honing, etc. Is this all overkill for something that won't produce enough Tq/HP to justify the investment?

Apologies for the basic questions: I like working with my hands on my car, but I'm not a mechanic and honestly, I focus the majority of my learning on driving technique/skills. But these are things I should know also. 

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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Oil temps wont change with viscosity. Make sure your cooing system is in good order and if its still too hot, get an external cooler. I don't think your numbers sound atypical though.






Oil viscosity has a HUGE impact on oil temps...


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

OK.. thanks so the car runs normally 205 215 (oil temps) sprinted goes up to 225-230 and when hauling it went up to that 240- I slowed her down and she cooled down quickly ... so upon reading a thread seems 205-220 oil temps is normal for daily driving so eh guess I was just worried about nothing but yes I will try to get the system flushed and new oil ran thru it and will check the system thoroughly 

Thanks for the reply ......


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

JohnStamos said:


> Oil viscosity has a HUGE impact on oil temps...


Not in my experience running 0w-20 through 15w50 and a few straight weight racing oils. Heat capacity seems completely independent. 

Now the viscosity you *want* to use is will depend on the temps you will likely see. Thats one of the reasons I can pull of a 10 or 20wt on a drag car but won't run it in a street or road race car.


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## Scotty_2.0 (Jan 14, 2005)

root beer said:


> Yea, let's talk about proven stuff in here please, boogie especially.


Glad I'm not the only one feeling this. 

I'm by no means an expert, so I come here for the real world experience of those who ACTUALLY have done it. If I wanted regurgitated internet heresay I'd be back in the Mk3/4 forums.. eace:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Light on Fuel said:


> What kind of Tq./HP has been realized from a fully built N/A motor?


Sorry I missed this question earlier. I have seen dyno sheets in the mid 240whp range but "built" engines with custom manifolds, standalone, etc. I think more is possible but not easily.

Past what is posted early in the thread is beyond most in scope and budget. Unless you want a science project, stick to it!


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

i run cheap dino 5 - 20 year round based on http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/
no temp changes though, also run it at the bottom of the dipstick hatch marks for windage..

i think the oil temps lead to timing correction and noticed lets say on a ford engine with no knock sensor, with the ait sensor next to the intake valve, that our cars may not have the best ait location or why would they need knock sensors or start to pull timing when the oil gets hot but i'm not too scientific

my temps sky rocketed fast until i put in a ghetto second radiator under the back and fed the cooled water into the oe heat exchanger and haven't been able to get oil over 220 since


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## Light on Fuel (Mar 1, 2011)

Let me just apologize here because it was my question, I believe, that jumped everyone off the rails. 

But back to the topic at hand. So judging by your reply, need_a_VR6, it would actually be cheaper to go force fed to realize any monumental gains. I know that in an old V8, you can gain a lot while still keeping it NA, but it looks as though the VR is limited. Possibly by its geometry or maybe by its flat head?

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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

50hp over stock isn't anything to downplay out of an NA motor. Look at what it takes to get 200+Whp out of a b or k series sometime. I think you'll find that they're spending significantly more money. It's just the nature of naturally aspirated performance that keeps the numbers down.

But yea, If you want 220 or more, you've gotta force it.


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

Please let's not ruin this thread. Some posts have been removed in an effort to keep it on topic. 

:thumbup:


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## vw1320 (Jul 11, 2000)

root beer said:


> 50hp over stock isn't anything to downplay out of an NA motor. Look at what it takes to get 200+Whp out of a b or k series sometime. I think you'll find that they're spending significantly more money. It's just the nature of naturally aspirated performance that keeps the numbers down.
> 
> But yea, If you want 220 or more, you've gotta force it.


220+ has been done by several people all motor. It isn't exactly easy but it isn't magic either. 



need_a_VR6 said:


> Sorry I missed this question earlier. I have seen dyno sheets in the mid 240whp range but "built" engines with custom manifolds, standalone, etc. I think more is possible but not easily.
> 
> Past what is posted early in the thread is beyond most in scope and budget. Unless you want a science project, stick to it!


Highest sheet I have ever seen is still Lil8v's 236 or whatever it was. I have heard rumors of higher but never saw proof.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I'm saying so, for the vast majority that will draw the line at putting management on the car.


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## Light on Fuel (Mar 1, 2011)

Yeah, stand alone is a black art for me. 

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## vw1320 (Jul 11, 2000)

root beer said:


> I'm saying so, for the vast majority that will draw the line at putting management on the car.


If you are going to draw the line there you mine as well draw it at FI as none of the canned tunes are all that great. That is if you are serious about performance.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

*Not saying I agree with drawing the line there.


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## VR6 GLX Man (May 20, 2008)

vw1320 said:


> 220+ has been done by several people all motor. It isn't exactly easy but it isn't magic either.
> 
> 
> 
> Highest sheet I have ever seen is still Lil8v's 236 or whatever it was. I have heard rumors of higher but never saw proof.


This is on all rebuilt cleaned internals or new engines I'm assuming. I saw some dynos in the Vr6 dyno thread and some guys with OBD1 or OBD2 vr6's with all sorts of work weren't putting out as much as others, could be dynos from higher elevations


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## CrAzY_dUb (Jul 17, 2007)

root beer when you ran 12.4 @ 111 with the black gti, how many whp did you had???


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## Scotty_2.0 (Jan 14, 2005)

Boogie_manVR6 said:


> i would like the above captioned comment to be deleted as well since *mines* were deleted. With all due respect, this statement is very insulting and degrading towards me.


Boo hoo.. on with the show 

But to keep on topic, I'm also interested in your setup *rootbeer*, specifically cams. Assuming from the lump, they're in the 276-288 area..? 

Love those runs you have posted up on YouTube btw :thumbup:


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

My Black car had Schrick 268's in it for most of the time. I never went bigger. Though, i did have DRC 268's and Autotech 262's in an older motor.


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## CrAzY_dUb (Jul 17, 2007)

rootbeer but for 111mph your old vr need to be in the 215whp to 220whp?!?! what was your best whp??


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

That car was pretty light compared to a lot of the other "street" cars that have run.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I put a lot of work into weight and setup, it was on 22's, it made a little over 200whp, I shifted at 6600, and I made a lot of passes that year.

The unibody was never cut though, I must maintain.


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## Light on Fuel (Mar 1, 2011)

Scotty_2.0 said:


> Love those runs you have posted up on YouTube btw :thumbup:


I'd like to see. Same username?

Edit: Found it. 

Nice. 

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk


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## Scotty_2.0 (Jan 14, 2005)

root beer said:


> My Black car had Schrick 268's in it for most of the time. I never went bigger. Though, i did have DRC 268's and Autotech 262's in an older motor.


Hmmm.. wishing I'd paid closer attention to the difference between the TT 268's and the Schricks. I really think my engine could use more up top. Debating on a Schrick 276 set at the moment.. 

Anyone ever try the Bildon adjustable cam sprockets? I know from my build that the cam timing was definitely pushed back after the machining and all. Wondering if these gears (assuming they're still available) are worth adding to correct this, and perhaps even further to regain a little down low...


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

vw1320 said:


> If you are going to draw the line there you mine as well draw it at FI as none of the canned tunes are all that great. That is if you are serious about performance.


serious here :laugh:: run a little higher compression than the tune calls for, a little alcohol to bring af up to the 12s and they're dead on. several people i've talked to in pms with maf problems didn't have the air filter firmly attached to the flow meter housing.. keep everything cold :thumbup:


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

Cleaned up some more. Any more off topic/argumentative posts will be removed with no notification. 
Thanks...and sorry to get all into your thread. :banghead:


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

Nice to see this threads kicking back up as it was dead the first couple times I posted on here .. 
Just want to say thanks to you dudes running them 12s in those vids I've seen em and subscribed long ago it has given me the push to stay all motor and keep in hope for a fun street car .. keep those cars moving'.... 

Again thanks to everyone for the input on any questions I may have asked or that I may ask :thumbup:


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## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

nater said:


> Cleaned up some more. Any more off topic/argumentative posts will be removed with no notification.
> Thanks...and sorry to get all into your thread. :banghead:


:thumbup:


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Boogieman has a lot of compex answers, and asks a lot of simple questions.
> 
> For intakes I have some old dyno sheets I'd have to dig up, but in the meantime... Going from filter on maf with headlight to removing the headlight was worth a consistent .15s et advantage. The prototype Turn2 intake did just as well as the filter on maf w headlight out. A solid, repeatable gain. If anything a long tube cai will help retain low end torque as well as help top end.
> 
> As far as headers go... I have yet to dyno or run any with giains vs ported stock manifolds. Though I think the right header on the right setup could make a big difference.




That bellmouth/flare on the T2 from 3.5 to 3 inches, essentially acts a velocity stack, no? I was reading some Honda-Tech threads and they started putting velocity stacks in their long and short, intakes. Saw pretty nice gains on top of what the CAIs made. :thumbup:

Guys, if you want to know next year's big VW tuning trends, just look at the cutting edge Honda techniques from 8 or 9 years ago. :laugh:


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

BPI has a cool site with a bunch of back to back dyno's with velocity stacks, with and without filters.

I ran one without a filter at the track previously, and recently bought a filter for my v-stack for my street car.


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## Light on Fuel (Mar 1, 2011)

crannky said:


> Guys, if you want to know next year's big VW tuning trends, just look at the cutting edge Honda techniques from 8 or 9 years ago. :laugh:


Since when are velocity stacks cutting edge technology?:what:

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

Light on Fuel said:


> Since when are velocity stacks cutting edge technology?:what:
> 
> Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk



That's the joke. The Honda kids are way ahead of the VW scene. 


I'd have expected more from you, being from my home and all. Tell me you're from Hudson, not Bergen County. I won't feel bad, then. :laugh: :beer:


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

root beer said:


> BPI has a cool site with a bunch of back to back dyno's with velocity stacks, with and without filters.
> 
> I ran one without a filter at the track previously, and recently bought a filter for my v-stack for my street car.


Yeah. They make good numbers for something simple.


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## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

What's the weight difference between; a mild steel 2.5" exhaust vs a 3" MBS aluminum kit? Worth upgrading to or not?


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Alum was never a standard thing. Let me know what they'd charge for that sort of thing nowadays.


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## Light on Fuel (Mar 1, 2011)

crannky said:


> That's the joke. The Honda kids are way ahead of the VW scene.
> 
> 
> I'd have expected more from you, being from my home and all. Tell me you're from Hudson, not Bergen County. I won't feel bad, then. :laugh: :beer:


I'm a bit older than most on here, so I'm not surprised that I missed the joke. Plus, I don't really associate with JDMers. 

Neither, Essex. Born and raised in Newark, now I live in Nutley. Good to meet you. 

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk


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## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

root beer said:


> Alum was never a standard thing. Let me know what they'd charge for that sort of thing nowadays.


Their website is down. From memory was $550-600.


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

OK... so ran the my stockish vr6 gti (1997) or the first time at our local 1/8th mile track 

Reason I say stockish is 

Eurosport intake /giac. Chip /custom 2 1/4 exhaust (sebring) and gasket matched intake manifold -1.8t iat- 

Standard clutch ... mounts gone to shiz (new ones on the way from bfi) 

I did run bfg drag radial tires started at 35 psi (205/50/15) 

OK.. so saying that 

Again. It was my first time out there , so I started with 35psi and didn't get much of a launch out of her 
We lowered the psi to 30 did a bit better and got a bit used to what I was doing so I also ran faster , 
On the third and final run we decided to run tires @ 25 psi and it felt great much better than the other 2 passes and again I went faster ...

Now my questions are what are some tips I can try to use to help my times or let alone help me get down the track a bit better 

The first time I launched I was at about 25-7k the 2nd around 3k and the fastest pass of the night was @ 3500rpm but I was bumping the rpms not staying flat on an rpm as like say an idle 

1st.. pass.... 10.2 @ 70.xx 
2nd pass....10.1 @ 69.2
3rd pass... 10.0 @ 69.5

However my MPH was lower in the last 2 but ran faster ...

Miles on motor 6k on standard rebuild (p/o) chassis 175400 on final run 


Thanks for any input :thumbup:


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

For street tires, it's less about launch rpm and more about how aggressively you are slipping your clutch. I usually don't have my clutch all the way out until the top of first gear. 

Done right, I always have felt that it's like riding a wave. You've got to keep vehicle speed moving consistent with what your engine and drivetrain are doing....somewhere between spinning and bogging.

As far as bumping Rpms on the line vs holding an rpm, people do it both ways. I personally like revving the car on the line. I think it feels more consistent from standing to accelerating with a motor that is already accelerating. Finding an exact rpm is never where I though my focus should be(the light, how the car feels). 

Seat time, and some motor mounts and you'll go quicker :thumbup:


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

on the first pass i i kinda rode the clutch out felt like it did the bog where the rpms fell back the went forward //second time i popped it a bit harder felt a lil better the 3rd run i said screw it lets try this and just dumped it like i was going for a burn out and that time it felt the best but i will try the roll out again and i will be trying the steady rpm launch ..... 

all 3 runs i was against 9-10. sec muscle cars lol .. it was what i wanted so im not trying to race anyone but myself so i got that and i got the same inside lane everytime which was another given that i wanted ...

but i did tree 1st run out i tree'd a vega with a 572 i personally thought that was cool till he left me 10+ cars behind lol he had a .4xx i had a .328 so that felt good other few runs werent so fast on r/t they were in the 4s 4.20 and 4.xx i can post slips if you would like to see them also i dont know what i should be aiming for @ a 60' i dont know what is good decent and just plain poor so if slips would help i can post em 


thank root really appreciate your input , :thumbup:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Launching on streets is odd and takes a ton of practice. I had the best luck with about 3k launch rpm and like Tim said, sliiiiiip that clutch. When I was slower it was through most of 1st and as I got more power, through the 1-2 shift. 60's for a decent driver on a street tire would be just under 2.0. If you are 2.1-2.2 there's room to grow. Most tires I have run like 18-22psi and almost no burnout, don't run through the water and just spin the tires to get the dirt/gravel off. 

One thing that seemed off on your slips was traps vs ET, I think 10 flat would be high 70's low 80's in a VR6, but it's been awhile.


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

please do keep in mind it was an 1/8th not a 1/4 lol its was a 10.087..... 

here's a pic of all three runs left to right is the first second and third as the night progressed i got somewhat better ..... 











i am the right lane car #3766 




btw which one of you guys if any is driving the brick red rattle can gti all motor ?? 

rootbeer i know your in the black one with the mint colored wheels right? 

either way ive been looking at those vids for a while XD like someday ...... someday...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Yeah I caught that it was the 1/8th otherwise youd have the quickest na vr6 by about a second. You have a lot left in just 60' keep at it. 

The "pink" car is Matt Ivan, vw1320.


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

So after looking at the slips what's a 60' that I should be aiming for keeping in mind that I am on bfg drag radials and will be lowering psi to start with 20 psi and down from there maybe till 16-7 

Is my 60' that terrible? Or is it basic but I can do better ? 

Sorry for all the questions but I'd have to start and ask somewhere


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## VWpowa (Mar 4, 2000)

2.4 on bfg drag radials is not very good. My 60 ft is not all that and get 2.2 all the time on street tires. Drag radials I would say 2.0 or lower

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## VWpowa (Mar 4, 2000)

I've heard before a 10th of a second on 60 ft is worth .2 in the 1/4 not sure how true that is. Need_a_vr6 is a great 1/4 mile resource. He's one of the knowledgeable ones that stick around

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Yea, you want a 2.0 or lower. Quickest I've done on street tires was a 1.97 with a diff.

4 tenths is a big deal.

This is what a 2.0 street tire 60' might sound like. To be fair, this is with gears and a diff. 195/50 dunlop direzza.

1/8 mile was [email protected]


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

Ahhhhh I got ya ride that b*tch out I see now :banghead: 

I'll be giving this.a Shot for damn sure thank you sir :thumbup:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Yep, like the worlds biggest start on a hill.


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## Dancin (Jun 9, 2013)

So for the transmission why not swap the o2a with the entire o2j transmission? or are they different?


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

They're the same internally with a few minor differences, and some different gear stacks. The biggest difference is the shifter.


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

Btw root & need_ if you guys have any second hand parts that you would like to sell cheaply 

Please do lmk ii don't have much cash but I can save up , if priced reasonably :thumbup:

Thanks


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I only have "crap" and "baller ****" anymore


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## EAD0001 (Mar 6, 2006)

I just picked up a MK2 VR with LSD, 3.94s, and some all motor goodies. I plan on taking it to the track in a month or so. Been reading up on this thread. Lots of useful info here. I hope I can use it well. I'd like for the car to be a weekend racer/daily driver. We'll see how that goes. :beer:


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

any advice on buying some simple auto tech 262 cams? thinking about grabbing these and moving forward, my car is still a daily driver and im not looking forward to losing trq when id rather have the beginning to the mid range pull as all i have around is a 1/8mile track incl. cruise runs from time to time 

they will run me about 200 shipped bnib i know normal cost is 250.00 but eh not into paying full price :laugh:

anyway whats some thoughts on these


( one builders trash is another builders treasure )


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## VWpowa (Mar 4, 2000)

I have shrick 268s and I felt no low end torque loss

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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

I had some cash on me today so I decided to go and pick up some 262s (auto techs ) :laugh: got new cam bolts and a valve cover gasket - 


I know I'm talking a lot on this forum but I'm only seeking info and am great full for what has been given 

Now for another Q: 

What do you guys think about a TT exhaust Mani and down pipe will it help out or would money be better spent elsewhere .? Thanks... :thumbup: I can pick one up cheap btw


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

lilgreenmk3 said:


> I had some cash on me today so I decided to go and pick up some 262s (auto techs ) :laugh: got new cam bolts and a valve cover gasket -
> 
> 
> I know I'm talking a lot on this forum but I'm only seeking info and am great full for what has been given
> ...


Port-match/gasket match your OE downpipes and run the TT downpipe. No need to get different manifolds when the OE are good, just slightly undersized.


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

Btw I didn't run this past Thursday due to the manifold being off the car , as I am doing the cams tomorrow morning so no updates yet ....

Any info on cam break in they're 262s brand new and I want to be sure to do everything right as I can't afford to break anything or everything lol so what are some tips or mileage to work up to before hitting the track once again .....

Thanks


Items bought : 

Cams (262s) cam bolts ( heard theyre stretch) ( victor reinz ) valve cover gasket ( I have the cheap plastic cover) 
new oil change stuff mobil 1 (10_30) ( Mann oil filter)


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

You should do some new lifters too. Your old lifters are worn in for stock cams. Not that old ones won't work, but they may cause premature wear to your new cams.

Assembly lube for the install, make sure you turn the motor over a bunch with the valve cover off once you have it timed. I'd drive it around and heat cycle it for a few days, drain the assembly lubed oil out for some fresh, and go beat it up.

I've always used old cam sprocket bolts without issue. They torque to one specific torque(no 90 deg after that), so I seriously doubt that they're stretch bolts.


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

Bummed!!!!! Apparently my chains are loose and I need to change em so there's another hold off on this motor ! One thing after another it seems ( frustrated) as hell well I'll update it when the parts get here Monday and we will see what happens then ...


So much for buying a car with said to be new chains guess ill just do them and see what else pops up 

Any help on what the chain slack should look or feel like ( if any) when the motor is TDC cause I can almost lift and skip a tooth by hand ( but no chain rattle when driving ) or during a rev 

Just looking at it like glad it was caught here rather then on the track and breaking everything 






The boss works in mysterious ways ...........


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

Did you tighten and bleed the chain tensioner bolt?


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

No never touched the rear giant bolt / why do you ask /// I will be posting a pic here soon of the slack I have of the chain and other pics of what I'm working with :banghead::facepalm:



















Now these are pics of the slack will take anymore photos if needed


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

Try loosening that bolt and re tighten it on. Just a suggestion to make sure that the tensioner has that hydraulic pressure. 
I wouldn't think you would need to bleed it if it hasn't been off, but don't take my word for it. Some one with more experience will correct me if I am wrong.


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## Spiller337 (Nov 27, 2009)

In the process of installing my 262s right now, as soon as I get one of the cam sprocket bolts off the rear cam. 

They are NOT stretch bolts. They are torqued to 74 ft/lbs and are just a PITA to remove. You can reuse them.

The lower timing chain was relatively easy. Going to be doing the upper some time this week. All my guides were broken or missing pieces. :laugh:

Also have a 1.8t IAT, and a 3" MBS exhaust on the way. Planning on porting the manifolds or picking up a set that have already been ported. UM chip as well.

3.64 02a transmission with wavetrac LSD, shorter 3rd gear and TDI 5th, mk4 shift box and DG short shifter kit. The engine will be nice, but the transmission will be the biggest improvement. Should be fun!


*EDIT:* To the above timing chain photos, all the slack for the chain should be on the BACK side of the engine, between the rear cam sprocket and the intermediate shaft. That chain does look fairly new though.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Might be worth trying a new tensioner bolt. The check calve might be bad which is why its slack once oil pressure is gone. Otherwise it would be very loud by now.


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

ya i dont really have any chain noise while driving or at the normal 1k-1200k rpm range , but looking at the chains without swapping out any other parts would you change these chains on your own personal car ? if so would you ever change just the TOP CHAINS and guides only thing is i dont have the cash to put it in a shop and getRdone nor the place to separate my trans and motor ..... but i will if i must and have no other choice to do so ..


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

You can do the top only but once you are in that far its stupid to not do both. 

If it were mine I would do the bolt and keep my fingers crossed.


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

So quiet in here !! 

OK so here's an update , been kinda busy so haven't had time 

OK, so I made sure all my marks were on point they were and are , so what got me was the moment I slipped the cam alignment tool into place the slack tightened up and it looked normal I've asked around and was told that is normal for em to do that so.. now we are buttoning it up and getting ready for a second trial at the track 


Appreciate the help and info guys


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

If that pic was with the cam tool in place, it looks completely normal. If that's how it looked at tdc after running and/or only being cranked clockwise, it's bad.


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

that pic was taken no alignment tool in place , with the tool in place it tighten up but i did need to rotate the upper cam just a nick to put the tool in place so i must have been off by a hair


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

got it all in place with new cams were on timing although it was fun trying to get that damn upper cam bolt off as it did need to be drilled off/out but yep were all bolted up and in the morning rotate the motor by hand making sure all parts are moving smoothly and nothing is binding ,, then we start her and hold revs at 2k right ??? for atleast 3-5 min?? 

help on a proper break-in would be great 


please keep in mind if anyone is doing cams dont try remove the upper cam bolt without taking a step back and saying ok here we go cause it will frustrate you very much so , 

i have read multiple threads of this bolt having to be drilled or cut off i learned the hard way , 

as for the dudes who helped me out with Q: on this small replacement of parts ( not a build ) I THANK YOU AND CHEERS :beer:


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

There's no real break in for cams. Start it and idle. 

Break in under load is more essential for rings and bearings.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I usially do the 2k/2min to get it to temp and make sure there is plenty of oil up there with no real load. 

I agree though more essential for ring break in.


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

OK, so I got it started and man does she sound great !! 

How ever ! I need a coil pack now as I showed a code multiple times for cylinder misfire on 1 & 5 I took the coil pack off and re did all the wiring to double check I was going about it right , 

Still the same thing on the misfire codes and when I began to give it rpms about 1100 its seems to get raspy but at idle its fine I pulled the coil off and there was a crack on it ( bottom end ) 

Btw when I ran it today I did not leave my driveway I warmed it up and then did the 2k 2min which she sounded and felt OK at that rpm but soon got the mosfire sound and feel 

So 246.00 at orileys w/ lifetime warranty will be picked up in the morn


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Generally, i won't run a car for that long that's misfiring that badly. Are you 1000% that you don't have a couple mixed up wires? It's not throwing a cam sensor code as well is it?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

If you think its misfiring don't put any load on it if you can help it


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

Were all good !!! Thanks ( Need-a-vr) ( root beer) and any/ all who helped out ! 
She pulls hard and I'm happy with the outcome


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

Ran at the track ..... 

Kinda eh need to work on my launch a bit moar :/ 3 runs constant 9.83 consistent with 15psi on tires 
1 run 9.87 on my first run of the day also had the slowest R/T of the night at .515 but i won and that slow r/t changed 

Great R /T times though .186 and .2xx so that improved but I need to figure out some launch techniques

Also my 60ft got better 2.2 all day so were moving along 

Thinking on going up on tires maybe 16-17 psi ( will buy a small compressor to refill incorrect tires onsite at track 

I ran a s/c cavalier x3 est. 220hp & a mk5 Jetta 2.0t - won 2 against cav lost 1 to cav and 1 win. Against Jetta 

Had fun but improvement is next ..... slips up tomorrow

Need to find that sweet spot that you caught root cause my time is a long way from yours I tried the 3k but I bogged down a bit then I tried 33 and got a bit better so I'm lost maybe 35/4k ? Or is it the trans gears that allowed you to pull those times?

Thinking ahead maybe new clutch as mine isn't toasted but does have some hard revs and burnouts on it lol on/off track lol maybe a rado trans? I can't afford a LSD when it starts at $800+


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

On BFG's I would launch closer to 3.5-4k and that was on a 3.94 and LSD, but with the 225's. You might want or need to go higher, you'll have to feel it out. You want it to be high enough to spin out of the hole if you don't slip the clutch. Once you figure out where that is, start slipping the clutch to make the launch smooth.


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

Gotcha 

Thanks I feel like I'm slow cause I am lol but I also feel like I'm moving In the right direction as every time I go outthere I'm going faster , OK so here's a question 

If I get lighter wheels pull my pass seat and back seats will that help any or is it just a waste of time as it is I don't have a spare or jack or don't have any passengers 

And also what if I did the 2.9 clone Mani is that good for HP? Or just noise ? I was thinking it would help breath as in intake cams exhaust would all flow better right ? 
What are some HP or other tips that may help in the power corner of this 
Cause in have been fallowing this thread and have done 90% of this but what else in there higher octane help? Like that easy stuff is what I'm looking for I can run 100oct or just plain Jane 91 Oct


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

More octane than you need will actually hurt power in a minor way. 

Seat time yo. 

The first 100lbs off helps a little, the second hundred helps more.


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## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

Loose that dead weight. Less mass = faster acceleration = faster pass time.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Every 100lbs has been at least .1s et loss for me.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Every 100lbs for me used to translate to more excuses from non-drivers :laugh:


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

ok so rear rebar out! interior out ( pass and back seats ) what else ?? 

now for the suspension i basically have it even'd out as my ride height is even! not raked so would me raising the rear up help? 


:thumbup:


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

Raked the suspension hope it helps


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## EAD0001 (Mar 6, 2006)

So I hit the track on Friday here is San Antonio (600' elevation). Hadn't been in about 3 years so I wasn't expecting to do too great. My mods as of now are...

Motor
2.9 bottom end
MK4 head gasket
C2 OBD2 High compression 268 cam chip
Schrick VGI
DRC 268 cams
WRD Stage 3 Big Valve head

Trans
3.94 Ring and pinion
Stock 1st-4th
0.72 Fifth gear
Autotech Wave-Trac LSD
Eurospec lightened flywheel

My best run of the night was [email protected], but my highest mph was 98. I let off too soon at the end of that run. Here is my slip...


Untitled by wolf18t, on Flickr

I've got a question though...at the end of the quarter, I was at almost 7k in 4th gear. I've done the math, and at 7k with 195/40-16s, I should be close to 113mph in 4th. The transmission is a CCM, I made sure of that today. So why do you think my calculation is almost 15mph off?

Other than that, I only ran 3 times, but the car felt great out there. The one thing that it needs is a 3" exhaust and ported manifolds. It currently has 2.25" with a test pipe. Can't wait to get back out there for sure.


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## youlostme21 (Aug 12, 2008)

Are you accounting for the 3.94 r&p? Ccm's had 3.36 I believe


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Tach is probably off, I dont think I revved that high going well past 106mph. 

7k with a 23" tire and 1:1 4th at 97 is almost a 5:1 r&p calculated.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I wonder if he's got a 4cyl cluster in it.


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## EAD0001 (Mar 6, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Tach is probably off, I dont think I revved that high going well past 106mph.
> 
> 7k with a 23" tire and 1:1 4th at 97 is almost a 5:1 r&p calculated.


My tires have a smidge of stretch, but come out to 22.1" diameter (195/40-16). At 97mph, I should be around 6k rpms. I'll have to take video next time, but I was definitely at or around 7k on the tach. Its possible the tach is off. Its a corrado cluster (in a corrado dash) on a swapped MK2.


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## EAD0001 (Mar 6, 2006)

Not sure what corrado it is out of other than it was an automatic...still has the PRDL in the cluster.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

A 4cyl tach will read 33% high


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## EAD0001 (Mar 6, 2006)

Looking at pictures of the 4cyl and VR6 clusters, it looks like it is a VR6 after all. The redline on mine is at 6500. The redline on the G60 is around 6200.


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

VW drag day this Sunday !! Will post slips and see how we do during the day at the track instead of at night & it being 60° out there so wish me luck lol 

Any tips on running in hotter weather


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Be calm


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

And dont expect the car to be as fast in the heat.


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## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

need_a_VR6 said:


> And dont expect the car to be as fast in the heat.


So true!! That's why I love to drive my car at night....Colder air = higher density ratio of air molecules = Bigger bang during power stroke


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

There's the scientific air density stuff, but then there's the idea of how different cars/engine managements/chips handle the heat. I always thought my motronic vr's ran well in the heat.


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## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

root beer said:


> There's the scientific air density stuff, but then there's the idea of how different cars/engine managements/chips handle the heat. I always thought my motronic vr's ran well in the heat.


Indeed. That's why you have IAT sensors, MAF-sensors etc. to give accurate readings to the ECU and the ECU then calculates and readapts the ignition and fuel timing to compensate with the conditions. Even though it will run well in the heat you will still have the better advantage at night. It's not rocket science it's just plain common sense. All engines work better at night, whether it's a 2 stroke or 4 stroke engine.


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## DankNugz (May 19, 2007)

Boogie_manVR6 said:


> Indeed. That's why you have IAT sensors, MAF-sensors etc. to give accurate readings to the ECU and the ECU then calculates and readapts the ignition and fuel timing to compensate with the conditions. Even though it will run well in the heat you will still have the better advantage at night. It's not rocket science it's just plain common sense. All engines work better at night, whether it's a 2 stroke or 4 stroke engine.


:thumbup:

Sensors, or no sensors, just about any motor will run better at night vs day time. 

Sent from my VS920 4G using Tapatalk


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

root beer said:


> I always thought my motronic vr's ran well in the heat.


Mine was crap unless I iced the manifold down until I put in the 1.8t IAT then it was alright.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I'm not saying it's not different, but I don't think it's dramatic

Just about any motor CAN run better at night time. Doesn't mean it will. I'm not questioning science, I'm questioning the logic for the theorists in here.

Talking obd2 experience only btw. My car made more power on a dyno the hotter it got. Even on a 90 degree day.


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Mine was crap unless I iced the manifold down until I put in the 1.8t IAT then it was alright.


So weather reports say about 90° Sunday ... and I do have a 1.8t iat so my question is ice the manifold or don't ice the Mani ..?

Also would it help to pull the headlight out and run an intake tube out of the missing headlight hole ? Just seeing it would get much more air right? 

Also 

Anyone want to make a set of bored out exhaust manis for me ? I will pay of course but pm me with pricing and see if we can't work something out


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Chalk the day up as seat time man. I wouldn't stress about the extras as much as short tracking the car.

FOOSCAT baby. Focus on one skill(or concept) at a time.


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

:thumbup: gotcha


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

New personal best 

9.4 !!!!!

I lost 1st round , was told to run 9.30 seeing in my practice I was @ 9.4 so I got stuck with a 9.3 bracket number the dude I was running posted a 9.45 so with that being said he was closer to his bracket number then I was 


He ran a slower time closer to his posted number as I past em top end I mis-shifted and ran a 9.820 he ran a 9.864 all in all great day for a learning lesson ( I also didn't know that you can change your bracket number with each round that comes around which I find to be BS ) 

I would prefer a heads up race run what you brung and run what you built and don't let off


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The nice thing about bracket racing is that it levels the playing field. Unfortunately in your case it leveled it against you! As you get better at knowing the car and driving, it will become more fun.


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## VWpowa (Mar 4, 2000)

@lilgreenmk3 what kind of 60ft were you getting

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

R/T .366 
60' 2.113
330' 6.097
1/8 9.429 
MPH . 74.63

I'll post the slip when I get home :laugh:


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## vw1320 (Jul 11, 2000)

need_a_VR6 said:


> The nice thing about bracket racing is that it levels the playing field. Unfortunately in your case it leveled it against you! As you get better at knowing the car and driving, it will become more fun.



I understand and appreciate the skill involved with bracket racing but honestly never found it that much fun. Sure it can be thrilling to take the stripe by inches but it doesn't compare to heads up racing to me. It can be a decent way to learn your car and work on consistency and cutting a good light though.


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

vw1320 said:


> I understand and appreciate the skill involved with bracket racing but honestly never found it that much fun. Sure it can be thrilling to take the stripe by inches but it doesn't compare to heads up racing to me. It can be a decent way to learn your car and work on consistency and cutting a good light though.




completely AGREE


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## Spiller337 (Nov 27, 2009)

Have a lightened OEM flywheel that I need resurfaced. Does anyone know the measurement of the step between the surface of the flywheel and the ring gear?


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## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

lilgreenmk3 said:


> So weather reports say about 90° Sunday ... and I do have a 1.8t iat so my question is ice the manifold or don't ice the Mani ..?
> 
> Also would it help to pull the headlight out and run an intake tube out of the missing headlight hole ? Just seeing it would get much more air right?
> 
> ...


Ice it but don't Nuke it!! LOL!!:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Mk1 James (Feb 23, 2014)




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## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

root beer said:


> I'm not saying it's not different, but I don't think it's dramatic
> 
> Just about any motor CAN run better at night time. Doesn't mean it will. I'm not questioning science, I'm questioning the logic for the theorists in here.
> 
> Talking obd2 experience only btw. My car made more power on a dyno the hotter it got. Even on a 90 degree day.


I noticed this too! Ran my car on a DynoDynamics dyno (they read lowwwww). Made 160hp, then 162, then 164. This was in summer in Texas. I told the guy to run it 20 more times because I wanted 200whp. Ha ha.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

You will see that on any dyno. There is an optimum temp for the fluids where it will level off and even drop after things heat soak too much.


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

Just putting this out there ..........


Anyone have a shift tower for an 02j ? Pm me if ya do ty ...

I'm car 959.. ran against a bug (1st time out there for him chatted with em after the run ) he turned around on the track yes a u turn on the track I'm sure there is vids somewhere 

:vampire:









Here's the slip....


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## Light on Fuel (Mar 1, 2011)

I don't know if this was mentioned already, but has anyone ever swapped over to E85 (poor mans race fuel). A buddy of mine switched his Evo over to flexfuel and saw some incredible gains. Plus, it's cheaper than filling up at the track. 

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Need at least bigger injectors, 30lb would be a good place to start on a gas tune.


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## Light on Fuel (Mar 1, 2011)

Bigger injectors are a must apparently. And you have to find someone who's good at tuning (I already know someone who tunes for NASA racers). The downside is up to a 15% decrease in fuel economy. Upside is that your running with 105 octane....all the time. 

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk


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## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

Not really worth it on an all motor car. Money can be more effectively spent elsewhere.


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## Light on Fuel (Mar 1, 2011)

That's subjective at best. How can running 105 octane not really do much on an all motor engine? 

So does that mean everyone who fills up their tank with race fuel on a track day are just wasting their money if they are N/A? There's a ton of guys who run scca street touring, AutoX and TT who have switched to E85 that run N/A motors. 

I also know a few NASA instructors who have switched over and they drive both force fed and N/A cars. It's more cost effective in the long run, especially if you do several HPDE's over the course of a season. Because race fuel is crazy expensive and can quickly surpass the initial cost of converting to E85 by the time November rolls around. 

BTW - If you look through the Grassroots MS or NASA forums you'll see how this conversion is becoming more and more commonplace. They're also really easy to tune if you have a Megasquirt. 

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Because if you can't tune for it, you're jerking your dick a bit. Gas tune is not equal to an e85 tune.

And yea, if you just put in race fuel on race day without a tune, it's totally pointless. You gain no power. 

Ethanol burns cooler, which is the main draw. It kept cast pistons in Tim mullens 12v into the 9's.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Gains can be 5-10% but both fuel and timing need to be changed to realize them. The hotter temp the setup runs the more gain and consistency will be possible.


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## Light on Fuel (Mar 1, 2011)

I absolutely agree that you need to have a tune and mentioned such in my post. Although many have claimed that even on a gas tune race fuel is ideal while running laps. But bear in mind that some of those guys can afford to run stickers each day so filling up on a race fuel is a non issue. 

My only concern is if I'd be able to pass inspection if I convert. Many of those that I know who have switched trailer their cars to the track and only need to worry about passing an annual tech for their log book. I, on the other hand, do not have a trailer and would still need it to be street legal to get me to NJMP. 

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

i've heard that the octane boosting effects of blending e85 aren't linear, meaning that 25% blend is gonna move the octane up more than 25% of the math difference.. so if you're going over 10.5:1 then convert it all but stock pistons should make good use of 25% blend.

thought i read someone mention knock/timing correction even with 93 that's why race gas helps... 

on my obd1 car i put a dash mounted 10k potentiometer in place of the eng temp sensor and just butt tuned it for more fuel, although set too cold and oe ecu ignores knock sensor. maybe a 4 bar fpreg. never tried putting a pot in the iat's place but i'd try that too if i was na today. chip, e, ways to get more timing and fuel duty cycle, faster

once you play with e, you'll find some way to get it in there
el cheapo


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## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

E85 burns cleaner and is more emissions friendly. I just passed an EPA test with a big turbo wrx sti with an e85 tune, I just put on the stock exhaust and got it tested. 

Till I see a all motor vr6 run e85 and make more power I'll keep saying it's a pointless mod. Especially on anything stock-ish compression wise..


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## Spiller337 (Nov 27, 2009)

Got a question for everybody. Was trying to get my transmission on today. When removing my old throwout bearing I noticed that it had metal clips in the back holding it on. The new INA one has all plastic clips. Seems chincy. I looked online and even the OEM VW ones are plastic 

Does anyone know where to get the throwout bearings with the metal back? Or are the cheap plastic ones good to run? Don't want to risk anything.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I've never had a problem with the plastic t/o bearing. Though, the amount of play between the bearing and fork has definitely made me think twice before.


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## Scotty_2.0 (Jan 14, 2005)

root beer said:


> I've never had a problem with the plastic t/o bearing.


Same here. 

Really all those tabs are for is holding it from falling off while you install the fork.


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## Spiller337 (Nov 27, 2009)

I went through my garbage to find the metal one, and I don't even see and brand markings or part #s on it. Anyone know who even made them? Was it an older style?

Once my new clutch fork arrives I guess I'll just run the INA bearing that I have.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

The metal one that I have was from competition clutch


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## EAD0001 (Mar 6, 2006)

Went to the track again this weekend hoping to break into the 13s. Didn't happen, but I did finally get my 100mph. I ran a consistent [email protected] about 4 times in a row. My 60ft is where I am getting killed. Anyways, here is the slip...

Untitled by wolf18t, on Flickr


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## Rye Toast (Dec 22, 2011)

EAD0001 said:


> Went to the track again this weekend hoping to break into the 13s. Didn't happen, but I did finally get my 100mph. I ran a consistent [email protected] about 4 times in a row. My 60ft is where I am getting killed. Anyways, here is the slip...
> 
> Untitled by wolf18t, on Flickr


Nice man. Whats done to your car? Do you have any weight out of it?


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## EAD0001 (Mar 6, 2006)

Rye Toast said:


> Nice man. Whats done to your car? Do you have any weight out of it?


I took out all of the seats and it has 268s, WRD Stage 3 head, schrick manifold, LSD, and 3.94s. I know that if I was to drop that 60ft down to about 2.1 or 2.0, I will be seeing some 13.8s or lower. I just need the seat time.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Slip that clutch a tiny, tiny bit more and you'll probably be there. My first high 13 passes were all just under 100mph, didn't go over 100mph again until I was running solid high 13.8s


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## Rye Toast (Dec 22, 2011)

Yup, with more seat time you deff should be there. What tires are you running, D/Rs?


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## EAD0001 (Mar 6, 2006)

Rye Toast said:


> Yup, with more seat time you deff should be there. What tires are you running, D/Rs?


No, just running some Federal 195/40-16s. I would really like to get the car to the 13s, do a 3" exhaust, and some other minor supporting mods before I throw drag radials on it. My ultimate goal is the 12s and if I can get 13.5s without the DRs, I think I will be on my way.


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## EAD0001 (Mar 6, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Slip that clutch a tiny, tiny bit more and you'll probably be there. My first high 13 passes were all just under 100mph, didn't go over 100mph again until I was running solid high 13.8s


Right on...I have an issue with using my go and clutch pedals as an off/on switches. I'm slowly working on it. 

Side story, I let my brother take it down the track once. He pulled a 15.1 at 98. I was ashamed we have the same last name, but amazed it hit 98 with his terrible launch. :laugh:


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## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

Quick question.

Motor has 262's and stock head/block. I have 2 exhausts here, just wondering which is the best. 

1) 2.5" test pipe, mild steel to muffler
2) 2.5" test pipe 2.5" aluminum straight pipe to rear axle.

Or 3" mbs kit. 

Which one will give me the best e/t?


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## Spiller337 (Nov 27, 2009)

Anyone ever have their engine be slight lopsided after replacing the motor mounts? Mine seems to be a little higher towards the rear engine mount. Just replaced the two motor mounts with delrin ones, and used a solid G60 trans mount.


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

I ran close to you there on drag radials ran a 9.4 1/8th your 1/8 was a 9.2 although I never ran a full 1/4 in this car 

How ever I don't have as many mods I have a stock motor and trans (176k )on drag radials and my set of cams (262) without a passenger seat and back seats but everything else still there AC and all I would say try some bfg radials and you should really be able to hit your mark 

Wish you the best and keep pullin


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The motor is supposed to sit a bit tilted. I would say about 1/2 lower on the pass side across the top of the engine.


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## Njegos18t (Jul 31, 2007)

lilgreenmk3 said:


> I ran close to you there on drag radials ran a 9.4 1/8th your 1/8 was a 9.2 although I never ran a full 1/4 in this car
> 
> How ever I don't have as many mods I have a stock motor and trans (176k )on drag radials and my set of cams (262) without a passenger seat and back seats but everything else still there AC and all I would say try some bfg radials and you should really be able to hit your mark
> 
> Wish you the best and keep pullin



Yo I'll be at Big SoCal Euro this year with my mk2 vr. They have a 1/8 mile track as well. Maybe we can run the same class I'm in the 8.5-8.7 range. Look for this this car 










NPP


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## EAD0001 (Mar 6, 2006)

lilgreenmk3 said:


> I ran close to you there on drag radials ran a 9.4 1/8th your 1/8 was a 9.2 although I never ran a full 1/4 in this car
> 
> How ever I don't have as many mods I have a stock motor and trans (176k )on drag radials and my set of cams (262) without a passenger seat and back seats but everything else still there AC and all I would say try some bfg radials and you should really be able to hit your mark
> 
> Wish you the best and keep pullin


I've got AC and PS deleted too. I still want to get a 3" MBS exhaust (I think it'll fit the MK2s with little modification) before I get drag radials. I'm on a pretty tight budget with it and have a few different projects I'm working on for it at the same time. I probably won't see my goal for another year or so, but it'll be worth it. 

I still have to do the exhaust manifolds, lower intake manifolds, 1.8t IAT, new wires/plugs, pulleys, and a different intake setup. I've been trying to follow this thread as much as possible. But like everyone else has said, seat time is the only way I'll get there. I'll just keep at it and keep updating. :beer:


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## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

HaydenVR6 said:


> Quick question.
> 
> Motor has 262's and stock head/block. I have 2 exhausts here, just wondering which is the best.
> 
> ...


3" MBS kit.



Spiller337 said:


> Anyone ever have their engine be slight lopsided after replacing the motor mounts? Mine seems to be a little higher towards the rear engine mount. Just replaced the two motor mounts with delrin ones, and used a solid G60 trans mount.


Every transverse mounted 12v I've seen look to lean forward and toward the drivers side.


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

Did the mk4 o2j tower and box swap this is a must for anyone wanting to clean up that 02a 

Thanks again to this thread we are moving forward with these mods :beer:

Even made a custom short shifter :laugh:


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## Spiller337 (Nov 27, 2009)

Need to order a battery this week. Figured it's a good time to go light weight. Considering an ETX20l. Does anyone have any suggestions?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I use the 14, works great.


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## Spiller337 (Nov 27, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I use the 14, works great.


I was thinking about that as well. I don't run any subs or extra speakers or anything, just the stock speakers and a cheap headunit. Car isn't driven in winter so cold cranking isn't too big of an issue. Might sit for 3-4 days tops.

Where is a good place to pick these up from online? Can't find too many good sources, most of the websites look like they're from the 1990s :laugh:


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Battery warehouse. The terminals are the difficult part. My 18L lasted a long long time and performed really well.


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## Spiller337 (Nov 27, 2009)

Same thing?
http://www.tristatebattery.com/etx14-deka-powersport-battery-p-975.html


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Thats the exact one I run. I used to use posts made by Odyssey, now I just use ri g terminals and bolts. 

Tristate is always on point. I get all my batteries from there.


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## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

Just read through all 25 pages. Took me a few weeks. Awesome thread!!!! Extremely helpful!! 

And now I will ask a question. It might be goofy. "Valve float" was mentioned previously. At approx what rpm will stock valve train start to "float"? My engine has 218k (136miles).

Thanks!
Steve


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## Brimjolt (May 16, 2008)

root beer said:


> Because of the nature of the stock Bosch Mass airflow sensor(MAF), simply putting a filter or a ‘short ram’ intake onto the end of the MAF is not effective. This sensor requires a flow of air devoid of turbulence, which is taken care of with a ‘turn2‘ style cai. I lost a significant amount of power on a dyno going to a filter on the MAF.



Could having a short ram intake be the reason why I'm getting a IAT P0112 CEL?


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

OK... so seat time was said to be needed in my case and I feel like I've gotten used to my car and the track but in feel as if I hit a Plato on what I am doing here constant 9.5/9.4 in the 1/8th so now I am building a ported and polished head, and a mk4 gasket. 

As for seat time I've been great on the tree so much as back to back 00.1 & 00.2 trees my normal reaction is bout 2.xx or lower now to ask what else could I work on or do to help I've tried slipping the clutch but to be honest I'm slower when doing that so 3500-4k launch is where I like it



Also root now you say to run a cold air intake however out in Cali its about 80-90++deg weather and sucking hot air off the ground doesn't help at all ,how do I go around that I ran a full custom cai and the car felt like booty although it was the turn 2 style without the flashy name of course


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

Don't worry about reaction time so much and focus on your 60ft. Launch plays a big part. Then get your shifts on point. Id only worry about reaction time if you're bracket racing and/or in a competition.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

i installed a shift light so i cant test out my shift points ex: 5800 6100 6500 6800 etc... my 60'ft is stuck at 2.0-2.1 (NO LSD) 
when i roll out of the hole slipping the clutch i usually run a consistant 9.8 when i launch 35-4k i run my normal 9.5-9.6 ( 1/8th mile) 
i still have the crappy 3.36 r&p stock VR 02a with a clutch and flywheel looking to go lsd soon aswell as 3.94 r&p 

but i cant figure out what else to do besides this head i have coming in and finding a 3.94 or 4.24 trans gears 

i really only pay attention to the R/T due to the fact at my raceway there isnt any vws mainly muscle so i TRY to get out on em 


but i will be back at the track after this head & gasket install ill try riding the clutch and pay more attention to the slippage and see if i can hit it right 


thanks :thumbup:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

You need to launch at 3-4k AND slip. When you do that high and drop you can't control spin, that's where your 60 can improve. On stock gears I would slip all of 1st, on 3.94 I would do 1st, the shift and a bit in 2nd.


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## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

mk21.8Tjetta said:


> Just read through all 25 pages. Took me a few weeks. Awesome thread!!!! Extremely helpful!!
> 
> And now I will ask a question. It might be goofy. "Valve float" was mentioned previously. At approx what rpm will stock valve train start to "float"? My engine has 218k (136miles).
> 
> ...


Anyone? Or Is it that dumb of a question? The reason I ask I because I just had my engine worked over but now it falls on its face @ approx 6k rpm or just before. Lots more power in the mid range tho...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Make sure cam timing is right.


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## beertestr (Jun 11, 2002)

lilgreenmk3 said:


> OK... so seat time was said to be needed in my case and I feel like I've gotten used to my car and the track but in feel as if I hit a Plato on what I am doing here constant 9.5/9.4 in the 1/8th so now I am building a ported and polished head, and a mk4 gasket.
> 
> As for seat time I've been great on the tree so much as back to back 00.1 & 00.2 trees my normal reaction is bout 2.xx or lower now to ask what else could I work on or do to help I've tried slipping the clutch but to be honest I'm slower when doing that so 3500-4k launch is where I like it
> 
> ...


If you haven't done it already, try adjustable damping. Ricers usually go highest rebound damping on the front and high compression in the rear. This will minimize load transfer and keep the fronts loaded better. Depends on how far you want to go for drag racing but if you at least have single adjustables, that's usually rebound damping, go full stiff in front.


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## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Make sure cam timing is right.


I can't see that it would be...work was done by a VW tech that is good with vr's. 

But I'm going to do a few things first (check comp, proper CAI, mk4 iat. Etc) before I ask anymore questions. Its pinging a bit too so I want to get that sorted first also.

Thanks guys! Love this thread!!!!!


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## APCXxstovetopxX (Jul 9, 2009)

should i be excited????

last night i borrowed my buddies slicks and was able to pull a 13.7 at 99 and a 13.8 at 100mph in my mk2 vr. i was super stoked until i popped in here and saw people trapping similar mph on stock or mild cams, my car idles like a cammed up muscle car to the point that on street tires the front tires will flex up and down while sitting at a light. my issue is i dont know what cams it has, i bought the car with the swap mostly finished and just "cleaned it up" so to speak. i know the car has a 2.9 clone, and ive done the 1.8t IAT, and have a 3" exhaust , is it possible that running my air filter on the maf could cause the car to not run as well as it should? or should i start looking into other issues?


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## typeSLone (Feb 8, 2002)

APCXxstovetopxX said:


> should i be excited????
> 
> last night i borrowed my buddies slicks and was able to pull a 13.7 at 99 and a 13.8 at 100mph in my mk2 vr. i was super stoked until i popped in here and saw people trapping similar mph on stock or mild cams, my car idles like a cammed up muscle car to the point that on street tires the front tires will flex up and down while sitting at a light. my issue is i dont know what cams it has, i bought the car with the swap mostly finished and just "cleaned it up" so to speak. i know the car has a 2.9 clone, and ive done the 1.8t IAT, and have a 3" exhaust , is it possible that running my air filter on the maf could cause the car to not run as well as it should? or should i start looking into other issues?


Figure out what cams are in the car, but more importantly check for vacuum leaks. My 2.9 clone warped just the slightest bit while it was being welded together, I have to use rtv instead of a gasket where the upper meets the lower. Car ran awesome but at idle it sounded like cam'd big block and rocked back and forth from the idle lope.


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## jetta coupe (Mar 30, 2009)

APCXxstovetopxX said:


> should i be excited????
> 
> last night i borrowed my buddies slicks and was able to pull a 13.7 at 99 and a 13.8 at 100mph in my mk2 vr. i was super stoked until i popped in here and saw people trapping similar mph on stock or mild cams, my car idles like a cammed up muscle car to the point that on street tires the front tires will flex up and down while sitting at a light. my issue is i dont know what cams it has, i bought the car with the swap mostly finished and just "cleaned it up" so to speak. i know the car has a 2.9 clone, and ive done the 1.8t IAT, and have a 3" exhaust , is it possible that running my air filter on the maf could cause the car to not run as well as it should? or should i start looking into other issues?


All I have around me is 1/8 mile tracks. Mine did a 9.08 spinning badly through 1st and 2nd. I was on a 175/50/15 street tire, with a stock 3.38 tranny. The only things done to mine are mk4 hg, 1.8t sensor, and ported manifolds and downpipe. Im in an unstripped 90 jetta coupe, and I weigh 280. With a better tire, I probably could have done 8.90s. 60 foot time is crucial.


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## Project D (Sep 3, 2005)

mk21.8Tjetta said:


> I can't see that it would be...work was done by a VW tech that is good with vr's.
> 
> But I'm going to do a few things first (check comp, proper CAI, mk4 iat. Etc) before I ask anymore questions. Its pinging a bit too so I want to get that sorted first also.
> 
> Thanks guys! Love this thread!!!!!


Wait, it's pinging too? I second, check your cam timing. Doesn't matter how good your tech is, he's human and mistakes happen.


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## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

Project D said:


> Wait, it's pinging too? I second, check your cam timing. Doesn't matter how good your tech is, he's human and mistakes happen.


Yah, still pings a bit even with ultra 94 (which is the best I can get in Canadia). OK, well this kinda sucks...I didn't think it would even run if the timing was out a tooth. I'll get it checked and report back. Thanks guys!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Agreed double check cam timing and the torque on the knock sensors.


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## Project D (Sep 3, 2005)

mk21.8Tjetta said:


> Yah, still pings a bit even with ultra 94 (which is the best I can get in Canadia). OK, well this kinda sucks...I didn't think it would even run if the timing was out a tooth. I'll get it checked and report back. Thanks guys!


Oh no, one tooth is nowhere near enough to keep it from running, but one or two teeth will certainly effect how it runs. Had a guy in the shop just a few weeks ago with a VR6 that had had a chain tensioner and a guide replaced, and that was all. Thing had a munched intermediate gear and jumped a couple of teeth, and still ran, albeit poorly. But yeah, if you're running 94-octane jungle juice and still pinging, your timing is most definitely off. Now the question is, is it because the cam, or the ignition control, is off?


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## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

Project D said:


> Oh no, one tooth is nowhere near enough to keep it from running, but one or two teeth will certainly effect how it runs. Had a guy in the shop just a few weeks ago with a VR6 that had had a chain tensioner and a guide replaced, and that was all. Thing had a munched intermediate gear and jumped a couple of teeth, and still ran, albeit poorly. But yeah, if you're running 94-octane jungle juice and still pinging, your timing is most definitely off. Now the question is, is it because the cam, or the ignition control, is off?


Oh OK...wow I thought one tooth was big issue. Its just crazy to think it can run as well as it is if the timing is out. It still is fast, just no faster then stock. I had the head ported and 5 angle valve job by competition automotive its about it 10-12% better flow now, mk4 hg, but its no faster then stock. More mid power, but a bit less after say 5800rpm. I figured it was cause I still have stock cams 

Should I not drive it like this?? Don't want to cause more problems....

OK, well thanks again guys. Very helpful!


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## davis911s (Dec 4, 2006)

I need to replace a burnt piston in my camper with the vr6. I am debating replacing the one bad piston, or replacing them all. Since it is a camper, I am Not needing super power, however I have opportunity to get a new set of JE pistons that are slightly larger for a real cheap price. Do you think it is worth it? The higher compression and larger bore would be more power, but I need to pull engine and have it machined to do that too. engine has 180,000 miles


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## swtnlow (Oct 8, 2009)

I have a 97 passat with a vr6 i was driving along when all of a sudden it started misfiring like crazy. Mechanic said it was a bad coilpack so we replaced it and it ran great. Then im driving home an it just dies on me and i can barely get it running and it just misfires like it did before. Any ideas? Could something be frying the coilpack? thanks in advance


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## europarkingonly (Jan 7, 2011)

swtnlow said:


> I have a 97 passat with a vr6 i was driving along when all of a sudden it started misfiring like crazy. Mechanic said it was a bad coilpack so we replaced it and it ran great. Then im driving home an it just dies on me and i can barely get it running and it just misfires like it did before. Any ideas? Could something be frying the coilpack? thanks in advance


I just went through the same thing with my jetta, check your grounds if they're good then try changing you spark plug wires, my car was misfiring bad then wouldn't start I changed my wires then cleaned my plugs, she has been running fine since then, but now I about to change my plugs to the NGK bkr7e copper plugs.


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## europarkingonly (Jan 7, 2011)

Is there a forced induction VR6 thread like this?


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## Rolando_TX (Oct 14, 2008)

That ^


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## swtnlow (Oct 8, 2009)

ok thanks ill start there


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

europarkingonly said:


> Is there a forced induction VR6 thread like this?


Nah because its simple:

Install turbo kit
Say its the best thing ever
Break trans
Part out
Start reading this thread


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## europarkingonly (Jan 7, 2011)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Nah because its simple:
> 
> Install turbo kit
> Say its the best thing ever
> ...


Dont wanna thread jack, but already on my second trans in my mk3 vrt(20psi), and 3rd trans in my mk2 vrt(18psi), now I'm down to one spare trans left and afraid to even leave the driveway since this transmission broke pulling out of my yard


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## DankNugz (May 19, 2007)

europarkingonly said:


> Dont wanna thread jack, but already on my second trans in my mk3 vrt(20psi), and 3rd trans in my mk2 vrt(18psi), now I'm down to one spare trans left and afraid to even leave the driveway since this transmission broke pulling out of my yard


02J trans with diff bolt kit. Shift fork upgrade and LSD would be nice too.


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## europarkingonly (Jan 7, 2011)

DankNugz said:


> 02J trans with diff bolt kit. Shift fork upgrade and LSD would be nice too.


That's my goal


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

O2j syncros and dogs cant shift at high revs. The 1-2 slider loves eating itself too. The stock diff is weaker than the o2a (spider gear pin). 

O2a is no worse other than age and needing rebuilds. 3rd gear on any will break with any wheel hop/abuse. I broke one with 185whp. 

Straight cuts / dogbox for anything serious. Lsd and arp bolt kit in everything at min.


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## bgi corrado (Apr 2, 2009)

*pistons*



davis911s said:


> I need to replace a burnt piston in my camper with the vr6. I am debating replacing the one bad piston, or replacing them all. Since it is a camper, I am Not needing super power, however I have opportunity to get a new set of JE pistons that are slightly larger for a real cheap price. Do you think it is worth it? The higher compression and larger bore would be more power, but I need to pull engine and have it machined to do that too. engine has 180,000 miles






Hey Dave where did you see that deal with the JE PISTONS


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## swtnlow (Oct 8, 2009)

*passat*

so my passat still isnt running. checked all the wires plugs grounds swapped ecu checked sensors and everything we can think of. coilpacks just keep showing 2 cylinders without spark but im leary of putting another coil on again as the last one only lasted ten miles. itss like something is frying the coilpack. im at my wits end. anyone have any suggestions thanks


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## SpacedOutStar (Aug 23, 2013)

swtnlow said:


> so my passat still isnt running. checked all the wires plugs grounds swapped ecu checked sensors and everything we can think of. coilpacks just keep showing 2 cylinders without spark but im leary of putting another coil on again as the last one only lasted ten miles. itss like something is frying the coilpack. im at my wits end. anyone have any suggestions thanks


Why don't you start a fresh thread instead of tacking it to the end of a 28 page thread, you will get more help if people don't have to dig.


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

Posting.... here to say thank you once again ..... 

Installed a mk4 head gasket removed all a/c ported head and manifolds as posted in the list of this thread all works great took it to the track ran faster and my MPH went up and stood a consistent 73- never lower never higher . 

The motor also feels much torqier now I need some tires as drag radials with 9 psi isn't enough as I'm spinning through second ' 

Well thanks needavr and root beer appreciate the help and all the answers to the retarded questions I have asked so far
so next is 3in side draft exhaust , trans (3.94) , and some much needed tires thinking 22.5 8.5 15s m&H slicks 

Again thanks I'll report when I get moving on some more parts ,


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## lilgreenmk3 (Dec 15, 2011)

Also I have a obd1 intake Mani already cut and ready to weld , do you think I should sell it and find a obd2 or just find an adapter plate for the tb and use it .... thanks


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## europarkingonly (Jan 7, 2011)

Even thought both my cars are VRT I still read this thread


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I have never seen solid gains from the 2.9 manifolds or clones. I still want to weld up and port the area behind the TB as it necks in quite a bit there and see what that could do. BUT I don't have a 12v anymore.


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## bgi corrado (Apr 2, 2009)

*exhaust ports*

Hi Guys

i started porting my vr6 12v head yesterday and to my surprise i did a very good job and got excited and started porting the exhaust ports to match the gasket. Then i read on the forum that it can cause reversion . I'm turbo charging the motor, did i make a mistake or should i just get the turbo maifold ported if possible to match as well so that it all combines as a step up step down as even. I need to know if i screwed myself.:banghead:


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## BumblebVR6 (Nov 22, 2001)

Have you guys seen the claims from the new IE cams/software. 204hp/191tq on a stock head?? Doesn't add up.


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

BumblebVR6 said:


> Have you guys seen the claims from the new IE cams/software. 204hp/191tq on a stock head?? Doesn't add up.


At the Crank.

And its doable on stock cams, so 100% believable.


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## BumblebVR6 (Nov 22, 2001)

I think they're claiming whp. According to the graph they posted. http://www.performancebyie.com/ie-12v-vr6-street-camshaft-set


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## BumblebVR6 (Nov 22, 2001)

After reading some more, you're probably right man. Just hate seeing graphs that aren't true whp. Makes no sense to post crap like that.


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

Corrected crank horsepower (% increase from stock baseline) is much better in this case, as WHP will very WILDLY car to car, dyno to dyno, 

And then you as a company don't have to do damage control, when you have someone that bought the "kit", dyno'd on 18" ebay tank wheels, with 13" rotors, on a Mustang dyno, in 100* weather, 50% humidity, complaining that they made 150whp. Which is exactly what happens when companies post WHP figures, as the mass market refuses to understand that dyno numbers are a tuning data point, not to be directly compared with other data points taken in different scenarios.


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## BumblebVR6 (Nov 22, 2001)

JohnStamos said:


> Corrected crank horsepower (% increase from stock baseline) is much better in this case, as WHP will very WILDLY car to car, dyno to dyno,
> 
> And then you as a company don't have to do damage control, when you have someone that bought the "kit", dyno'd on 18" ebay tank wheels, with 13" rotors, on a Mustang dyno, in 100* weather, 50% humidity, complaining that they made 150whp. Which is exactly what happens when companies post WHP figures, as the mass market refuses to understand that dyno numbers are a tuning data point, not to be directly compared with other data points taken in different scenarios.


Very true. Makes sense from the company standpoint. Should be a good addition to the other cam makers out there. Would like to see how they fare against some drc 268's.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I have dynoed cars that made 150whp and were real quick. 

Though a "standard" wheel/tire/brake setup on a dynojet 248c will tell 95% of what you need to know.


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## Mk1 James (Feb 23, 2014)

This is how you build a quick Vr6 
https://vimeo.com/106680762


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## europarkingonly (Jan 7, 2011)

That was just a quick video of a vr6 doing a one wheel peel peg leg burnout from a turn that was the only time it was audible, and the only unedited part of the film, but damn that was one clean mk1


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## Mk1 James (Feb 23, 2014)

It's my Mk1 


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## BumblebVR6 (Nov 22, 2001)

I bet that's one fun ride James. Anything done to the motor?


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## Mk1 James (Feb 23, 2014)

It is lots of fun mate and just a stock motor but it's only 870kg so goes like a rocket 


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## BumblebVR6 (Nov 22, 2001)

Mk1 James said:


> It is lots of fun mate and just a stock motor but it's only 870kg so goes like a rocket
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I can imagine. It's boatloads of fun in my 1250kg mk3. Cheers.


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## Mk1 James (Feb 23, 2014)

Fitting a R32 over the winter 


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## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

Have an idea. 

To avoid pressure plate bolts coming loose on hard launches. 

Weld pressure plate to flywheel.

Obviously flywheels become a one use thing in this case, but they are cheaper than the time and effort in pulling gearbox to tighten them up. 

Any thoughts?


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Maybe we could weld our rod caps on to keep rod bolt failures down.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

It would be easy enough to tack them on, but I've had good luck with them staying even past 8k with blue loctite and torquing to 20lbft.


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## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

Fair enough, just thinking out loud, get some discussion going.


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

HaydenVR6 said:


> Have an idea.
> 
> To avoid pressure plate bolts coming loose on hard launches.
> 
> ...



You can retighten the presure plate bolts without dropping the trans. Pretty easily actually.


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## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

JohnStamos said:


> You can retighten the presure plate bolts without dropping the trans. Pretty easily actually.



Been a while since I've had to look in that area of mine. 

How so? Through the starter?


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## My Big (Dec 26, 2010)

*Advice?*

Recently acquired a 1997 GTI VR6.. Looking into basic upgrades and modifications.. I've read the thread pretty extensively, it has been very very helpful. I plan on building this car over the winter during my free time because it needs quite a bit of body and interior work, and it has a blown headgasket. Everything else is great though, only 80k miles.. 
As of now, I understand I should get a real CAI, cams, exhaust, chip, and of course replace the headgasket and upgrade while I'm in there.. (chains, waterpump, sparkplugs, wires, etc) 
Lots of companies are having sales and I am taking advantage of that 100%!

Autotech is having their 30% off sale, so.. CAI, exhaust from them, for sure.. maybe their 262s.. definitely their HD springs and LW lifters.

The only things I am concerned about would be the cams. Autotech's 262's are $217. I've heard they are pretty mild. Would I be better off getting TT's 268's for about $350? 
Their chip isn't considered the best, so I've heard. Should I go with TT? TT's is about $100 on sale.. or should I go with C2/BFI?
I'd love to get a 2.9l intake, but I don't want to spend that kind of money on a real one, so a clone with have to do. Does anyone have any idea where to get one?

*TL;DR -*

Just got a beat up 1997 VR6.. Long story short, I am going with
all maintenance first, of course.. plugs, wires, coil, etc.
Autotech CAI
MK4 HG
262* or 268* cams with HD springs and lightweight cam followers *(advice?)*
Autotech 2.5" exhaust (with deleted resonator)
42DD testpipe 2.5" no reduction
OBX header
Clone 2.9 manifold with 1.8T IAT sensor
Autotech, TT, or C2/BFI chip..*(advice?)*
New clutch because it needs it.. will stock be good enough? Should I upgrade?

I'd like to keep the budget under $2,000.. including my suspension mods which are going to cost about 800.

Should this combo be good for around 175whp, or is that a little on the high side? 
Any advice would be awesome (PM's are better than posts). Thanks guys.


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

My Big said:


> Recently acquired a 1997 GTI VR6.. Looking into basic upgrades and modifications.. I've read the thread pretty extensively, it has been very very helpful. I plan on building this car over the winter during my free time because it needs quite a bit of body and interior work, and it has a blown headgasket. Everything else is great though, only 80k miles..
> As of now, I understand I should get a real CAI, cams, exhaust, chip, and of course replace the headgasket and upgrade while I'm in there.. (chains, waterpump, sparkplugs, wires, etc)
> Lots of companies are having sales and I am taking advantage of that 100%!
> 
> ...



Autotech CAI :thumbup: *Maybe a velocity stack to go with that.*
MK4 HG :thumbup:
262* or 268* cams with HD springs and lightweight cam followers *(advice?)* *I'd consider Colt Cams, as well.*
Autotech 2.5" exhaust (with deleted resonator) :thumbup:
42DD testpipe 2.5" no reduction :thumbup:
OBX header :thumbdown: *Waste of money*
Clone 2.9 manifold with 1.8T IAT sensor :thumbup:
Autotech, TT, or C2/BFI chip..*(advice?)* *I'd do a GIAC or UM*
New clutch because it needs it.. will stock be good enough? Should I upgrade? * Stock is most desirable.*


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## My Big (Dec 26, 2010)

crannky said:


> Autotech CAI :thumbup: *Maybe a velocity stack to go with that.*
> MK4 HG :thumbup:
> 262* or 268* cams with HD springs and lightweight cam followers *(advice?)* *I'd consider Colt Cams, as well.*
> Autotech 2.5" exhaust (with deleted resonator) :thumbup:
> ...


For daily driving I don't want to use a velocity stack for obvious filtration issues.
I'm pretty decided on 268s, they're only $350 from TT and should give me good gains.
Is the OBX header really a waste? From what I've gathered the stock downpipe/manifold is very restrictive.
UM? Are they good? I was thinking of going with BFI's race VR6 chip.. but I've had bad results with their 2.0 chip so I am kinda hesitant
The stock clutch would be good? That's a relief.. some of them are expensive.


Any idea where to get a nicely done 2.9l clone manifold?
Any guesstimate on the WHP/WTQ figures?

Thanks so much.


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

For the price of the obx header get the TT down pipe and port your stock exhaust manifolds. Much better than that header.

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## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

Dyno'd yesterday.
262 cams, 2.9 manifold, cai, abd intake, ported exhaust manifolds stock downpipes and a 2.5" press bent exhaust.


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## max302 (Apr 7, 2010)

HaydenVR6 said:


> Dynosheet
> 
> Dyno'd yesterday.
> 262 cams, 2.9 manifold, cai, abd intake, ported exhaust manifolds stock downpipes and a 2.5" press bent exhaust.


Software?
Coilpack car I assume?
Gas?
Stock Compession and HG?

A bit disappointing considering the correction probably helped you according to what I'm reading, no? What gives?

Not trying to be critical, just trying to understand. It seems guys with the same setup are netting a whole 10-12+ HP more.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Just remember that the dyno is a tool, not a measure of your dick.


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## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

Stock software. Coilpack, 98ron stock compression.

Australian dyno's tend to be more realistic than yank dyno's.

More so people could see powerband etc. More information the better.


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## max302 (Apr 7, 2010)

root beer said:


> Just remember that the dyno is a tool, not a measure of your dick.


Of course, everybody knows that the real mesure of your dick is time slips. 



HaydenVR6 said:


> Stock software. Coilpack, 98ron stock compression.
> 
> Australian dyno's tend to be more realistic than yank dyno's.
> 
> More so people could see powerband etc. More information the better.


Any plans for software? If the internet is right and 98 RON = 93 AKI, it seems that it would be a great benefit. Thanks for posting!


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## noskeh (Mar 11, 2004)

Before I went turbo I had a similar setup to what your building.

2.9L VR6, MK4 HG, ported stock manifold and downpipe, 2.9 clone intake, TT268 cams and UM software with DUI coipack plugs gapped .40
Oh autotech 2.5 exhaust with 42 test pipe

Car sounded amazing and ran great! im not saying it was putting down 200whp but I know I was damn close so much stronger then a stock VR6. Now all I care about is turning up the boost. I would definitely go with UM software and TT268's or schricks if you can find a set cheap.


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## vcampg (Aug 24, 2007)

IN


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

My Big said:


> For daily driving I don't want to use a velocity stack for obvious filtration issues.
> I'm pretty decided on 268s, they're only $350 from TT and should give me good gains.
> Is the OBX header really a waste? From what I've gathered the stock downpipe/manifold is very restrictive.
> UM? Are they good? I was thinking of going with BFI's race VR6 chip.. but I've had bad results with their 2.0 chip so I am kinda hesitant
> ...


You can use a stack with a filter over it. C'mon. You have a Honda. You guys figured this out a long time ago.


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## lilrabbitGTi95 (May 23, 2009)

Just adding my info to this thread, I got lucky with my vr6 build, and a lot of the parts were gathered by the PO. I just had some maintenance items to buy and put it all together. My set up is as follows:

ARP bottom end hardware
block decked .005
g60 rings
mk4 head gasket
Schimmel performance ported/polished head
263 Cams
GIAC chip
Peloquin LSD

Sounds like very little when put into a list, but it is a very very stout motor. Perhaps it was just jumping from a worn out 300k mile vr6, but man what an engine this turned out to be. I have yet to get it on a dyno, but I plan to at some point. 
My butt-dyno is giving me a reading of fun-hp. 1st gear is dead useless, and second pulls all over the road. I'll be sure to post numbers when I get them, next planned upgrade is a 2.9 manifold and perhaps a 1.8t IAT sensor.


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## bigteal (Sep 11, 2002)

Ok, I have a question. I'm doing a vr swap in the mk3. Mild NA build. I want to smooth out the runners in the upper intake but have no idea about how to go about it, other than extrude honing. I can't find anything that will bend far enough to get the whole runner. I'm not looking to go any bigger, just to knock down the casting flash a little. It does seem like the upper runners are somewhat smoother than the lower, so maybe I'm wasting my time. 
Any thoughts or suggestions?


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

It's likely not worth your while. The whole design is a huge issue.

Match the outlets to your lower manifold, drill and tap for a 1.8t sensor if you wanna be fancy.


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## bigteal (Sep 11, 2002)

I am gonna port match and clone it, along with some porting at the TB opening. Just bugs me that I can't clean up some of the sloppy production casting flash. Bit OCD I guess:laugh:


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

If you're cutting it open, you'll have a good shot down the runners. You won't have angle to really work the short turn, so just don't go too crazy. I've always grinded a few spots at the throttle body flange, but idk if it matters at all.


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## bigteal (Sep 11, 2002)

I might take some long strips of emery cloth to the runners after its cut open then, just to where I can't get to with a grinder.

Awesome. Thanks for the advise:thumbup:


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## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

Slight hesitation after gear changes, any ideas?


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Loose motor mount, tune up, loose nut behind the wheel.


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## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

root beer said:


> Loose motor mount, tune up, loose nut behind the wheel.


Solid mounts, all done, definitely exists


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Could be electrical, a grounding problem perhaps. 

Maybe a fueling problem. I think I had an issue like this when I may have been out of injector. Could be a pump or a regulator. Check your pressure?


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## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

Finally have time to post this! Had my vr dyno'd a few weeks back. A bit disappointed, especially after 5k rpm's  

I knew it wasnt running right, and this confirmed it. For one, I cant get it to stop pinging. Tried different plugs. Running a catch can. 94 octane. Helped, but still pings. The guys that dyno"d it said they thought it was running lean, and was maybe running out of fuel. Wasnt able to get an A/F ratio reading unfortunately. I will get a proper chip in the new year, and continue working through this kickass DIY.

97 GLX
220Km 
block was just "refreshed". Honed, re-ringed, new rod bearings.
MK4 head gasket 
APR head studs and rod bolts
Ported head 5 angle vavle job by Competition Automotive Richmond Hill Ontario 10-12% gains claimed
Fagnablow 2.25 cat back
Home made CAI with cone filter
Newsouth intake manifold spacer
AMS chip (was $30)

Everything else is STOCK. I didn’t have money for cams when the head was off unfortunately... :facepalm:

156whp 163wtq


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Are you sure it is timed correctly? Lack of top end and the 'pinging' is suspect to me.


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## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

No I never did. I'll check it this winter, a long with compression. I may have to pull the head off too...head gasket appears to be seaping on the passenger side :-(

So you don't think a overly aggressive tune could cause pinging? And maybe running out of fuel from not compensating enough for the ported head?

Thanks again


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Check your cam timing. It'd be best to get the issue figured out before you tear it down again.


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## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

OK, will do. I won't be able to get to it for a bit yet, but I will keep you posted.

Thanks again!


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## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

Going to be making larger downpipes soon. And thinking that the length of downpipes could be made shorter to gain some more peak. 

Anyone tried this one before?


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Management, intake manifold, cams, fuel. I wouldn't waste too much time/effort on downpipes.


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## Marv123lu (Jul 12, 2012)

Am I the only one having trouble viewing this post no matter yow I try to look st this post all I see are codes no pictures or icons just their codes ?


----------



## bigteal (Sep 11, 2002)

No, I've got the same problem


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

This thread looks fine to me on tapatalk.

-Apple
via Tapatalk


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## Project D (Sep 3, 2005)

Marv123lu said:


> Am I the only one having trouble viewing this post no matter yow I try to look st this post all I see are codes no pictures or icons just their codes ?





[email protected] said:


> Hey everybody-
> 
> We made a change to the forum software over the weekend that caused this. We're working on a solution to it now. I'm *really* sorry about that.
> 
> -Tim





[email protected] said:


> Yes. Once we find a fix for this (I know _how_ to fix it, the trick is doing it to millions of posts) it will correct problems like that as well.
> 
> Again, I'm really, really sorry for the inconvenience here, everybody.
> 
> -Tim





[email protected] said:


> Again, sorry about this everybody.
> 
> We have a script that's running on the database to fix all of this formatting. Unfortunately, our database is HUGE, and we have to run the scripting on just part of it each night so we don't kill performance. It will be corrected over time, though.
> 
> -Tim





[email protected] said:


> Nope, not at all. It'll get corrected with time.
> 
> Basically, having HTML turned on in the forums is bad for a variety of reasons, so we turned it off. We didn't realize at the time how much of the older content had been reformatted into HTML when we moved it over from the ZeroForum backend four years ago. When we turned HTML off, all of that got malformatted.
> 
> -Tim


TL;DR: They updated the forum software and it broke millions of posts. They have a fix, and they're currently working on a rollout strategy to implement it on said millions of posts. Should clear up fairly soon.


----------



## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

^^^ thanks for that update!


----------



## Marv123lu (Jul 12, 2012)

OK thanks I thought it was just me


----------



## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

Anyone have any b2b et gains of a velocity stack out the headlight vs behind the bumper and a ported tb? 

Have seen some hp gains with velocity stack, dyno error amount. But nothing comparable for a tb.


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I can say that I lost power on a dyno with a velocity stack directly on the maf vs. a cai with a filter.

I ran a velocity stack out the headlight at the track, but never really tested back to back enough to verify. I just figured 100mph wind would most likely help the intake.


----------



## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

http://www.mts-motorsport.com/epage...s/61752271/Products/"GEACRE+002"&Locale=en_US


----------



## max302 (Apr 7, 2010)

HaydenVR6 said:


> http://www.mts-motorsport.com/epage...s/61752271/Products/"GEACRE+002"&Locale=en_US


Wow, if there's any way to chirp fifth that's it.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

4.24 is rough enough!


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

In case you wanna build an 8v stump puller


----------



## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

Anyone have back to backs of a schrick vs standard (ported, 2.9 whatever)?


----------



## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

HaydenVR6 said:


> Anyone have back to backs of a schrick vs standard (ported, 2.9 whatever)?


Comparing the AFP vs AAA is similar. Kinda...


----------



## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

mk21.8Tjetta said:


> I can't see that it would be...work was done by a VW tech that is good with vr's.
> 
> But I'm going to do a few things first (check comp, proper CAI, mk4 iat. Etc) before I ask anymore questions. Its pinging a bit too so I want to get that sorted first also.
> 
> Thanks guys! Love this thread!!!!!


Me again. I finally had time to check the valve timing. It was OK. However, the cams were not both at the exact same position. The front was was dead level with the top of the head, but the back can was turned counter clockwise a tiny bit. I can post a pic. Is this normal?

I switched back to the stock tune, and the pinging stopped. Ugh. :banghead: should've tried that a long time ago. The AMS tune was to aggressive I guess for the added compression.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

HaydenVR6 said:


> Anyone have back to backs of a schrick vs standard (ported, 2.9 whatever)?


I have never done a back to back but comparing various dynos on my car say the vgi is worth 7-10whp at 7k (with a ported head, cams, etc). I didnt have the flapper but if you are using it there are big midrange torque gains. 

Afp manifold is similar, but different. The injectors for that manifold break often and are probably the biggest pain of putting one on. 



mk21.8Tjetta said:


> Me again. I finally had time to check the valve timing. It was OK. However, the cams were not both at the exact same position. The front was was dead level with the top of the head, but the back can was turned counter clockwise a tiny bit. I can post a pic. Is this normal?
> 
> I switched back to the stock tune, and the pinging stopped. Ugh. :banghead: should've tried that a long time ago. The AMS tune was to aggressive I guess for the added compression.


The cams dont sit dead flat. If it looks worse moving a tooth, its right. 

Some of the old tunes are too aggressive, I always made best power 32-33deg total timing on 93 oct 10.5:1 comp w mild cams. You may want more with larger cams. I have seen chips with 50+ deg in the mids and high 30s at wot. Way too much.


----------



## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I have never done a back to back but comparing various dynos on my car say the vgi is worth 7-10whp at 7k (with a ported head, cams, etc). I didnt have the flapper but if you are using it there are big midrange torque gains.


I picked up one super cheap. Comes without all the accessories so i was just going to make up a blanking plate for the flapper and run it without.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Exactly what I did. Worth it.


----------



## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

need_a_VR6 said:


> The cams dont sit dead flat. If it looks worse moving a tooth, its right.
> 
> Some of the old tunes are too aggressive, I always made best power 32-33deg total timing on 93 oct 10.5:1 comp w mild cams. You may want more with larger cams. I have seen chips with 50+ deg in the mids and high 30s at wot. Way too much.


Thanks man! It would be worse it it was moved a tooth. Yeah it must be way to aggressive cause even with the stock tune back in it pulls a bit harder. Do you still believe GIAC to be the best??

I talked (via PM's) to a guy that put an afp manifold on an AAA and he used the AAA injectors and rail. He double stacked o rings I believe, and didn't have a problem. I was going to try it just for the mid range gains but never got to it...


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

For obd1 I like the giac cam file. Obd2 um/c2 is another choice.


----------



## #1~STUNNA (May 4, 2002)

need_a_VR6 said:


> For obd1 I like the giac cam file. Obd2 um/c2 is another choice.


Bit rusty what's a UM chip?


----------



## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

#1~STUNNA said:


> Bit rusty what's a UM chip?


United Motorsports I believe


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I've gotta say, I just got my first c2 chip, matching my motor......and I know lots of people run these, but this thing runs like ****.

It feels like it's never settled on how much timing I get only seldomly what I perceive as full power. It misfires when cold. It pops/backfires on decel. I can't wait to get through emissions so I can put my GIAC chip back in.


----------



## Njegos18t (Jul 31, 2007)

I just bought my c2 chip also i wish you posted this 2 days ago


----------



## mk21.8Tjetta (Jun 3, 2002)

Njegos18t said:


> I just bought my c2 chip also i wish you posted this 2 days ago


Can you post how much it car runs with the chip? I need one for emissions also. Running stock tune now cause my AMS chip was to agressive when I uped the compression :-(


----------



## Hollagraphik (Nov 9, 2005)

4.24-mk4 2liter o2j's and others



need_a_VR6 said:


> 4.24 is rough enough!


What's it like to drive with that ratio? I've always wondered.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Wheel spin city.


----------



## Hollagraphik (Nov 9, 2005)

Lol besides that I mean


----------



## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Njegos18t said:


> I just bought my c2 chip also i wish you posted this 2 days ago


I hope yours is better. I almost wonder if some partially broken aspect of my car that wasn't tripping the GIAC chip up is now effecting the c2 chip differently. Tps perhaps?.....I'm getting a vibe from that.


----------



## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

root beer said:


> I've gotta say, I just got my first c2 chip, matching my motor......and I know lots of people run these, but this thing runs like ****.
> 
> It feels like it's never settled on how much timing I get only seldomly what I perceive as full power. It misfires when cold. It pops/backfires on decel. I can't wait to get through emissions so I can put my GIAC chip back in.


Almost every Obd2 12v C2 tune I have seen is like this. 

I have one that runs GREAT WOT and at temp, but cold, misfires to the point you have to rev out the motor 3-4 times before you can drive or it falls on its face, and you CAN'T engine brake, or it machine gun backfires indefinitely. 


It's like they asked a 16yo with his first car what he wanted in a tune, and decided to make it their canned tune.


----------



## Njegos18t (Jul 31, 2007)

****


----------



## Njegos18t (Jul 31, 2007)

im going to cancel my order and go with united motorsport chip


----------



## d3bas3r (Jul 12, 2007)

JohnStamos said:


> Almost every Obd2 12v C2 tune I have seen is like this.
> 
> I have one that runs GREAT WOT and at temp, but cold, misfires to the point you have to rev out the motor 3-4 times before you can drive or it falls on its face, and you CAN'T engine brake, or it machine gun backfires indefinitely.
> 
> ...


I believe I just read a post from you, circa 3 years ago, that stated something very similar. I had hoped that things may have progressed in that time as far as C2 tunes. In the same thread, others complained of similar issues. A C2 rep even asked you to elaborate. How the h3ll are they still selling chips / in business if they're that bad? 

I'm not calling you out, I'm just mystified. Like, if I sell frozen dog 5hit in a cone and call it chocolate ice cream, at some point my customers are gonna dry up, I would think, since 5hit is 5hit and will never taste like ice cream, and word gets out.


----------



## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> For obd1 I like the giac cam file. Obd2 um/c2 is another choice.


Hey Paul! Long time since we chatted, how's your Corrado? Ha ha. I believe you felt sorry for me owning one, now you're on he wagon. Ha ha.

Anyway, got mine back on the road this past Saturday. (Slight over rev on apparently broken tensioner guide, 6 bent exhaust valves). Valves were replaced, head decked a few thou to get it flat, now running mk3 gasket for fear mk4 will induce contact. If you recall, I had TT264/260s, euro 2.9 upper intake, port matched lower, polished head with deepened intake bowls, mbs 3" exhaust.... added to that (with this repair) 16 (maybe 14?) Lb flywheel, stock clutch, peloquin lsd, 3.94 and .717 5th.

Running the standard OBD1 Giac chip... any gains to be had with the Giac cam chip? Hoping to make up what I lost by going MK3 head gasket... 

(Got any ported exhaust manifolds/down pipes for sale? Ha ha)


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Hollagraphik said:


> Lol besides that I mean


I only ever personally ran it with the 3.2 and 24.5" slicks and it was a good combo, but needed more rpm to make it really work. 3.67 or a 3.94 make more sense for most unless you are on a roadcourse.



GTIVRon said:


> Hey Paul! Long time since we chatted, how's your Corrado? Ha ha. I believe you felt sorry for me owning one, now you're on he wagon. Ha ha.
> 
> Anyway, got mine back on the road this past Saturday. (Slight over rev on apparently broken tensioner guide, 6 bent exhaust valves). Valves were replaced, head decked a few thou to get it flat, now running mk3 gasket for fear mk4 will induce contact. If you recall, I had TT264/260s, euro 2.9 upper intake, port matched lower, polished head with deepened intake bowls, mbs 3" exhaust.... added to that (with this repair) 16 (maybe 14?) Lb flywheel, stock clutch, peloquin lsd, 3.94 and .717 5th.
> 
> ...


Its coming along very, very slowly. Luckily my only Corrado problem is finding cheap front end parts as mine came with none. The rest of the issues are all physically removed. 

The TT cams should clear with the mk4 gasket without an issue. I have only had 276 and 288s have any contact. If you have had the head decked and no valve job, that may be different though.

Cam chip is only a raised idle.

I dont' have any ported but may have cores. PM me.


----------



## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

d3bas3r said:


> I believe I just read a post from you, circa 3 years ago, that stated something very similar. I had hoped that things may have progressed in that time as far as C2 tunes. In the same thread, others complained of similar issues. A C2 rep even asked you to elaborate. How the h3ll are they still selling chips / in business if they're that bad?
> 
> I'm not calling you out, I'm just mystified. Like, if I sell frozen dog 5hit in a cone and call it chocolate ice cream, at some point my customers are gonna dry up, I would think, since 5hit is 5hit and will never taste like ice cream, and word gets out.



Ask BFI, MJMautohaus, ect how they do it. Hell, look at Gonzo. 

The VW community isn't the brightest when it comes to venders.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

One day I'll shed all these stupid stupid issues and finally have cash around to put a real Ecu on it.


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## Hollagraphik (Nov 9, 2005)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I only ever personally ran it with the 3.2 and 24.5" slicks and it was a good combo, but needed more rpm to make it really work. 3.67 or a 3.94 make more sense for most unless you are on a roadcourse.


Thanks for the response :thumbup::beer:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

root beer said:


> One day I'll shed all these stupid stupid issues and finally have cash around to put a real Ecu on it.


For serious.


----------



## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

root beer said:


> One day I'll shed all these stupid stupid issues and finally have cash around to put a real Ecu on it.


Paul is cheap to buy. 

Should use him.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

HaydenVR6 said:


> Paul is cheap to buy.
> 
> Should use him.


True! I need to do a VR6 on Microsquirt.. deal to be made!


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Shoot me a message on here or the phone, at least I'm close enough to convince you to come down here and make it work. I'm anxious to tune nitrous correctly.


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## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

What's the widest rim i can fit a 22.5x4.5 mt on? 6"?


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I've never experimented with wider rims and skinnies. Sorry.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Me either, I have only run those on 4" rims. I think you could get away with a 5" but 6" is pushing it. Theres not much sidewall on a 22"


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## Hollagraphik (Nov 9, 2005)

Hollagraphik said:


> 4.24-mk4 2liter o2j's and others
> 
> 
> 
> What's it like to drive with that ratio? I've always wondered.





need_a_VR6 said:


> Wheel spin city.





need_a_VR6 said:


> I only ever personally ran it with the 3.2 and 24.5" slicks and it was a good combo, but needed more rpm to make it really work. 3.67 or a 3.94 make more sense for most unless you are on a roadcourse.


Now I see what you're saying :laugh:






EDIT: For those who don't want to click through to YouTube:

-Stock Vr6 12v
-HPA shortrunner intake
-Supersprint headers
-3'' exhaust
-Giac chipped
-Aluminium pulleys kit
-8lbs aluminium flywheel
-Stage 3 clutch kit
-No p/s and a/c
-4.24 final drive


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## Njegos18t (Jul 31, 2007)

Here is my new setup I have ran the car to a 13.0 at 106.5 on 70shot of N2o with the obd1 crap. I think it should pick up another 10whp 
Obd2 swap 
C2 chip for mk4 gasket 
Obd2 clone 2.9 manifold 
TT downpipes 
O2m 6 speed 
3" exhaust


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Nice, what axles did you o2m with?


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## Njegos18t (Jul 31, 2007)

The drivers side is stock Audi TT and passenger is shortened 24v axle


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Interesting. How was it shortened? 

Also, what are the specs on your 70 shot? What jets? Where is your nozzle? Where are you running your wot switch? Have you had a wide band on it? Did you run the same setup on the motor?

Thanks for the info!


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## Njegos18t (Jul 31, 2007)

The nitrous setup is wet kit from Nitrous express with big fat boy solenoids lol I placed the nozzle abou 10" before the TB. I'm running a 0.043 nitrous jet and 0.27 fuel jet, the WOT switch is on the bottom of the gas pedal. I have gone thru 10 bottles so far without any issues I also tried 100 shot the car was ****ing nuts haha


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Thanks for the info. One day when I can stop losing my mind on this house I plan to finish up a similar setup on my daily racer golf. I've got my bottle mounted with blowdown tube, line run, wideband installed. I resized my rods with arp's when I did my rebuild. I had planned to put the switch on the throttle body but wasn't sure. 

I just need to buy solenoids.


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## Njegos18t (Jul 31, 2007)

My first setup was with NOS solenoids and they sucked I threw them in the trash and went with NX 🏻


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## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

Fyi 205/50 mickey et's aren't grippy enough. Even on a standard-ish vr.


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## RoseBud68 (Dec 13, 2012)

Tired of looking for this thread....Subscribed. 
Picked on of these as well as the plug connector with extra wire from the local pick and pull. Will work on this this weekend. 

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view


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## reynolds9000 (Oct 16, 2003)

I put mine in the air box. seems to run the same as when I had it zip tied in front of the cooling fans.


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## reynolds9000 (Oct 16, 2003)

https://vimeo.com/135745863

I don't race so I don't know how to shift like a race car driver.. just a quick acceleration video in 1-3 gears. 

C2 chip 

rebuilt cylinder head

2.9 clone manifold

mk4 head gasket 

AT 262's

Ported exhaust manifolds

TT Downpipes 

MBS 3" system, no cat. 

1.8t IAT 

10lbs AT flywheel


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## RoseBud68 (Dec 13, 2012)

reynolds9000 said:


> I put mine in the air box. seems to run the same as when I had it zip tied in front of the cooling fans.


Thanks reynolds. That is where i had planed on installing it. :thumbup:


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

RoseBud68 said:


> Thanks reynolds. That is where i had planed on installing it.


Is this mod just to trick the ecu into thinking the intake air is cooler than it is? 1.8t have them directly after the throttle body in the intake manifold which would be truest reading of air temperature. 

But if this is just to trick the ecu than I understand the mounting of it anywhere.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Its to get a "more accurate" measurement. 

I dynoed it outside the manifold because it was easy. I did the "permanent" install of it near the filter because I didn't want to machine the vgi for it. Location isnt that important as long as its reading what the motor gets. 

If boosted it has to be after the intercooler.


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Its to get a "more accurate" measurement.
> 
> I dynoed it outside the manifold because it was easy. I did the "permanent" install of it near the filter because I didn't want to machine the vgi for it. Location isnt that important as long as its reading what the motor gets.
> 
> If boosted it has to be after the intercooler.


Okay gotcha, that makes sense then. 

BTW this thread is great. I'm about halfway through it and I just want to rip my motor apart and start building!

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

i finally read through the whole thread!

there wasnt a clear answer about intakes. right now i have a filter on the maf which im not a fan of but it came on the car so its all i have at the moment. its a vr swapped into a mk2 and the only airboxes that fit are corrados boxes which are impossible to find. would i be better off running a CAI or a velocity stack?


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

The old heads did some cai to airbox testing, but I haven't heard of anything since I've been of driving age.

I've currently got a cut airbox on my car. I'd love to back to back dyno a cai and my velocity stack for fun.

I came to an understanding that the maf/management like some intake before the maf more than just a filter when I was trying things out on the dyno.


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

root beer said:


> The old heads did some cai to airbox testing, but I haven't heard of anything since I've been of driving age.
> 
> I've currently got a cut airbox on my car. I'd love to back to back dyno a cai and my velocity stack for fun.
> 
> I came to an understanding that the maf/management like some intake before the maf more than just a filter when I was trying things out on the dyno.


So how exactly would a filter on a velocity stack on a piece of pipe attached to the MAF pan out. Is that worth the effort. I'm not looking for crazy HP gains I'm just looking to get air into the intake the most effectively. 

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

http://www.bpi-us.com/testing.php

Hondas, but faith inspiring.


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

So it looks promising, mixed results on intake tube vs just the stack on the MAF. 

I think it's worth giving it a shot if anything and the BPI stack with the filter is less than half the price of a CAI. 

It got me thinking after looking at the IE vr6 power kit. Their intake system is a velocity stack with a heatshield and filter. 

The turbulence issue makes sense my 1.8t ran noticeably worse with this filter on the MAF over a traditional cone filter.









Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I tried a bunch of things. Filter on a stick was best, Turn2 specifically. Just as good as a filter right out the headlight hole. Worth .2et over the filter on the maf with the headlight in. Never dynoed them all though.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

Click here please, thanks.


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

billyVR6 said:


> Click here please, thanks.


Great info in that link but at the same time it's proving that an intake that is NLA makes power over an airbox. 

It's not saying that every cai is going to give you the same results though. 

Sorry I'm not trying to be dense here, there just seems to be some definitive answers about things in this thread but never about intakes. And I'm in the market for one and would like to invest in something worthwhile.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I'm shopping for a filter for my old blox velocity stack to try to shove it down in(or near) the fender


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

I have a ABD big bore intake from my 1.8t that's 3" I'm considering doing what I can to use that and a velocity stack. There is an opening for the SAI that I can cut down and stick a mk4 IAT Sensor in there. Hoping it works as planned.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

Throttle body to MAF tube is Spectre 94963 + 3" hump hose. Cut to fit. ~$50

I know people are always looking for this.


Then its a 75 degree bend into the fender if you keep the intake piping somewhat low. Noone makes a 75 degree 3" bend with long legs on each end. But there is a Honda ebay intake that works for ~$30. Ill have to find it again.


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

itschrisb said:


> Great info in that link but at the same time it's proving that an intake that is NLA makes power over an airbox.
> 
> It's not saying that every cai is going to give you the same results though.
> 
> ...



So find one in the classifieds. The reason I think the T2 makes good power is it has a 3.5 inch bellmouth that essentially acts a velocity stack.


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

crannky said:


> So find one in the classifieds. The reason I think the T2 makes good power is it has a 3.5 inch bellmouth that essentially acts a velocity stack.


If you find me a T2 CAI, I'll gladly pay you a finders fee. I already have a listing up with no success. 

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Keep looking they are worth it.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

My old straight 3" autotech intake worked fine. I'd take one of those again.


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## Hollagraphik (Nov 9, 2005)

What about an old school HKS Mega Filter?


----------



## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

What's this megafilter?

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

Also what's up with stroker kits? No one talks about them with vr6 but everyone is doing them with 1.8t. Is it because of the flathead design of the vr6?

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

On a 12v the head is a serious restriction. Stroker would move the power band to lower rpm for more torque but not a huge hp gain. R32 crank bolts in but $$$ with custom rods or pistons.


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

Gotcha, everything I read was talking about custom pistons or rods but no real clear answers about power gains and what not.

If only there was a different head to use!

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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I have never seen a stroker build make good power or run good times, but I'm sure if someone cared enough they could. There's just a load of other things one could do first. 

There is a better head.. 24v!


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I have never seen a stroker build make good power or run good times, but I'm sure if someone cared enough they could. There's just a load of other things one could do first.
> 
> There is a better head.. 24v!


I guess I meant that would bolt onto a 12v block

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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Even if it could, it doesn't really matter. They are all cheap enough anymore.


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

General question for Root Beer or anyone who's run a manifold with a large plenum: Did it feel like it was soft if you goose it at certain RPMs?

Almost like it was wanting for air. I'm wondering if this is in my head or an effect of, depending where the throttle is, the plenum/runners being optimally full. 

Car pulls really well up top, just feels awkward if hit from certain rpm/gear combinations.


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

I have a migfab customs SRI and mine revs like a damn F1 car. I have a lightweight flywheel, port work, but no knife edged crank.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

On stock management and 268's and the biggest 12v plenum evar, I lost 10-15ft-lbs peak tq. I only gained like 5whp at peak, but 30 whp at 7k rpm. The car was a little faster, but gearing was more of an issue with that cam/manifold combination.

In retrospect, I suspect that I was out of injector between shifts.


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

root beer said:


> On stock management and 268's and the biggest 12v plenum evar, I lost 10-15ft-lbs peak tq. I only gained like 5whp at peak, but 30 whp at 7k rpm. The car was a little faster, but gearing was more of an issue with that cam/manifold combination.
> 
> In retrospect, I suspect that I was out of injector between shifts.



I remember that manifold in the classifieds. I need to get this one on a dyno and see what's up. Really can't justify that till after the holidays. It randomly sounds like a ghost when cruising, though. :laugh:

I assume you were running 3.94s? I have a 3.67, Schricks, GIAC, which I suspect is a very early version. I'm wondering if a later revision-GIAC or a UM chip might make this work a little better...


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

With a big plenum the air is going SLOW after the TB, that's the point. So if revs are low it will definitely feel a bit flat until it gets a chance to fill back up. You can mitigate that a bit with a smaller TB to some extent. 

How big is your plenum? A good "big max size" is roughly equal to engine displacement.


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> With a big plenum the air is going SLOW after the TB, that's the point. So if revs are low it will definitely feel a bit flat until it gets a chance to fill back up. You can mitigate that a bit with a smaller TB to some extent.
> 
> How big is your plenum? A good "big max size" is roughly equal to engine displacement.


I'll have to do some guesstimates/measurements when I get it home. It's big, though. I'd guess 3-4 liters. 

I bought it from a guy on here. It's a shortened-stock runner, sheet metal, Euro clone, basically. Runner compensation intact.R


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

Post a pic

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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

Some pics in the original FS thread:

http://forums.mwerks.com/showthread.php?6152415-FS-Custom-Intake-manifold-for-12V-VR6



I had the TB flange cut and rewelded to the stock location/angle. It was in a turbo car, so the PO added that to clear the compressor housing.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

That plenum doesn't look to be 3-4L


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> That plenum doesn't look to be 3-4L


Dude, I guessed that while typing a response and eating lunch. I imagined how many 2 liter sodas it looks like it could hold, runners to TB flange. I thought, "maybe a little less than 2". :laugh:

I need to actually measure it. What's your much more educated guess?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Hard to gauge how thick it is, but I'd say closer to 2.5


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Hard to gauge how thick it is, but I'd say closer to 2.5


Off the top of my head about 2 1/4 inches. It's a bit thicker than stock manis.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

2.5l i mean. Easy enough to measure


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

Ended up scoring a turn2 intake from the classifieds! Hopefully it won't be to much of a pain to fit into a mk2.

Who's running a catch can? Thoughts? 

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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Nice. I ended up with a 60 degree bend and a velocity stack. Took some finagling, but it fit.










I currently run a heater hose that is zip tied to my rear motor mount. I plan to put a catch can on it just to not have oil in my intake. No performance reason.


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## Wayne92SLC (Mar 1, 2001)

42DD catch can mounted to the strut tower brace.


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## Wayne92SLC (Mar 1, 2001)

Too bad you can't see my old skool Turn 2 intake. Ha!


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## BumblebVR6 (Nov 22, 2001)

Looking good brother Wayne! How the hell have you been?


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## Wayne92SLC (Mar 1, 2001)

I've been better. I was laid off back in August. Been with the same company for 23 years. It's hard to start over. While I'm searching for my next opportunity, I'm working in my good friend's machine shop, but it's not enough to survive. It's more than unemployment though. At least I have my health and a loving family.


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## BumblebVR6 (Nov 22, 2001)

Wayne92SLC said:


> I've been better. I was laid off back in August. Been with the same company for 23 years. It's hard to start over. While I'm searching for my next opportunity, I'm working in my good friend's machine shop, but it's not enough to survive. It's more than unemployment though. At least I have my health and a loving family.


Sorry to hear Wayne. You nailed it in the last sentence. Stay strong and hang in there. Your experience can't be taken away, you'll find something better I'm sure. 


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## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

Anyone done testing on intake pipe diameter?

E.g. 3", 3.5" and 4"


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

Aluminum radiators, yay or nay? Im doing a coolant system overhaul in my car and havent really found a definite answer on radiators.


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

itschrisb said:


> Aluminum radiators, yay or nay? Im doing a coolant system overhaul in my car and havent really found a definite answer on radiators.


OEM rads do just fine.

The cheaper aluminum rads are junk and end up with leaks and pinholes.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I agree that oem radiators are great. I've had a super cheap eBay radiator on my car for a couple years without mechanical issue. It bowed down a bit in the middle, and initial fitment on the a/c condenser and fan shroud were bad.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Not a huge fan of the ebay ones in general, most are "offs" from the actual contract manufacturer not first quality goods. Hence the cheapness.

That being said, I ran an OEM rad for a long, long time without a problem.


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## BumblebVR6 (Nov 22, 2001)

TheBurninator said:


> OEM rads do just fine.
> 
> The cheaper aluminum rads are junk and end up with leaks and pinholes.


Even the pricey ones. I had a $450 PWR that lasted maybe 2 years before it started leaking. Stick with the factory style. 


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

Turn2 Trifecta!

Did they make anything else?

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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Not a huge fan of the ebay ones in general, most are "offs" from the actual contract manufacturer not first quality goods. Hence the cheapness.
> 
> That being said, I ran an OEM rad for a long, long time without a problem.





BumblebVR6 said:


> Even the pricey ones. I had a $450 PWR that lasted maybe 2 years before it started leaking. Stick with the factory style.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There is something to be said for the quality of OEM parts. They are designed to last for the most part.

I still have my original radiator at 160k. Zero cooling issues on the car and no fitment problems with stock stuff.

Now with that said when I swap to a euro core support I will replace the rad, but with another OEM one. But only because I have to take the rad out to do the swap. I'll probably switch to a stock temp T-stat and fan switch and put my oil cooler in at the same time.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Idk, at $70, i'm happy with the cost effectiveness. Mine doesn't leak, and OEM is not cheap anymore.


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

How about slim fans and wiring. I'm trying to find an adjustable fan switch to mount inside the car, I swore I saw a nice on with a digital display before but can't seem to find the thread anymore. 

The factory connector has already been cut up so I'm trying to bypass it all with new wiring/relays. 

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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

root beer said:


> Idk, at $70, i'm happy with the cost effectiveness. Mine doesn't leak, and OEM is not cheap anymore.


Eh, another 100 bucks and you can have OEM and zero fitment issues and a bit of piece of mind.

I guess I don't see 170 as that much money for a radiator, especially considering I just spent around $500 on my shifter :laugh::laugh:



itschrisb said:


> How about slim fans and wiring. I'm trying to find an adjustable fan switch to mount inside the car, I swore I saw a nice on with a digital display before but can't seem to find the thread anymore.
> 
> The factory connector has already been cut up so I'm trying to bypass it all with new wiring/relays.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


Just wire the factory fan switch to a set of relays. :thumbup:

There are some diagrams out there on how to do this easily.


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

Its a vr swap into a mk2 without the fan control module, the person who did the swap did a relay setup using the stock wiring and a relay. It all works and everything but if i could just bypass that entire bundle of wiring id be happy. Could I pull the signal from one of the sensors on the thermo housing? 

Sorry if this is off topic, please tell me if so.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Double post


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

I love the little flex a lite controller with a probe through the rad fins. I'm just running a single 4 wire relay grounded through the controller. It's nice to ditch the stock fcm wiring.


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

itschrisb said:


> Its a vr swap into a mk2 without the fan control module, the person who did the swap did a relay setup using the stock wiring and a relay. It all works and everything but if i could just bypass that entire bundle of wiring id be happy. Could I pull the signal from one of the sensors on the thermo housing?
> 
> Sorry if this is off topic, please tell me if so.


Again, you will want to use the fan switch on the radiator as the trigger. :thumbup:
The sensors on the t-stat housing read a resistance value and cannot be used as a relay trigger (at least not without a control module)

I would suggest looking in the VR6 Mk2 swap thread in the hybrid swap forum. There are a few writeups and wiring diagrams out there that can help you :thumbup:


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

Thanks guys, I'll do some reading through the swap thread. 

I was looking at that flexalite controller and wondering how reliable the probe was. 

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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

The controller has been sweet for me for 2 or 3 years now. Nice and consistent. I don't really adjust it much though honestly. I've only used the knob to leave the fans on between track passes.


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## mk4vr6jetta02 (Nov 10, 2014)

'scribed

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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

itschrisb said:


> Turn2 Trifecta!
> 
> Did they make anything else?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


There was a header, but never passed the prototype stage.


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

This thread is God sent. Next up standalone questions 

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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Ask away!


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## pubahs (Apr 2, 2002)

Speaking of standalone, mine allows for the rad fans to be run off the ecu. Nice and simple 👍

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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

pubahs said:


> Speaking of standalone, mine allows for the rad fans to be run off the ecu. Nice and simple 👍
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


Tell me more! What standalone are you running?

I've been looking into Lugtronic for the mere fact that it's plug n Play and user friendly. Correct me if I'm wrong on either of those. 

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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

itschrisb said:


> Tell me more! What standalone are you running?
> 
> I've been looking into Lugtronic for the mere fact that it's plug n Play and user friendly. Correct me if I'm wrong on either of those.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


Almost any standalone can do fan control, it's really, really simple. It cannot be done with a pnp install, however. With the age of these cars (especially OBD1) it's worth re-wiring in almost every case from a reliability standpoint. Most of the stock sensor bodies can be re-pinned for new contacts and the cost is minimal (~$2/pin or less).


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Almost any standalone can do fan control, it's really, really simple. It cannot be done with a pnp install, however. With the age of these cars (especially OBD1) it's worth re-wiring in almost every case from a reliability standpoint. Most of the stock sensor bodies can be re-pinned for new contacts and the cost is minimal (~$2/pin or less).


So you're saying build an entire new engine harness from scratch?

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## pubahs (Apr 2, 2002)

Yes, as noted above... most standalone can handle this. But I should have mentioned that I did have a custom harness built.. honestly the mk3 harness is old, dry cracked.. which causes more issues and headaches than one needs. it was worth every penny! 

Mind you, if you are on a budget, then go the other fan control route and stick with og harness  

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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

itschrisb said:


> This thread is God sent. Next up standalone questions


You've said Paul's favorite word :laugh::laugh:



need_a_VR6 said:


> Almost any standalone can do fan control, it's really, really simple. It cannot be done with a pnp install, however. With the age of these cars (especially OBD1) it's worth re-wiring in almost every case from a reliability standpoint. Most of the stock sensor bodies can be re-pinned for new contacts and the cost is minimal (~$2/pin or less).


Who are you sourcing contacts through? That's like dealer pricing for contact pins :sly:

I still want to build a milspec harness someday for one of my cars. Screw the shaved bay thing. All about that engine harness porn. :laugh::laugh:

For the most part I agree with what you are saying about building a new harness. The exception I would say is a car that is known to not have any wiring issues and has proven itself.... So not a VW :laugh::laugh:



itschrisb said:


> So you're saying build an entire new engine harness from scratch?


Yep.


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

pubahs said:


> Yes, as noted above... most standalone can handle this. But I should have mentioned that I did have a custom harness built.. honestly the mk3 harness is old, dry cracked.. which causes more issues and headaches than one needs. it was worth every penny!
> 
> Mind you, if you are on a budget, then go the other fan control route and stick with og harness


Even if he had an ECU that could control the fans, he would still need a relay setup. The ECU just provides a trigger. :thumbup:


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

I'm all for building a new harness. I had plans to do that with a motorcycle I was building but after having the stripped down original harness and new wires ready to build I quickly realized I hadn't the slightest clue how to begin haha

I love the idea of using as little original wiring as possible.

I'll have to start looking at the shaved bay threads for wire harness building guides. Anything else to make things easier? I have a mk2 and mk3 bentley. 

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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

TheBurninator said:


> You've said Paul's favorite word :laugh::laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do have some skin in the game on this topic! *I* can get pins cheaper, but I buy them in bulk, like lots bulk. I also loan out the pin tool with deposit so they can be properly crimped. Plus I can also get the little weather plugs into that price too, which the factory "fix it" connectors don't.

I do love a nice, new engine harness. It's a thing of beauty.


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## Project D (Sep 3, 2005)

Is there a place that makes and sells replacement harnesses for our dubs? I just don't have the time or patience to build a new harness myself. Both my Mk2 and my Corrado could use the love.

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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

itschrisb said:


> I love the idea of using as little original wiring as possible.
> 
> I'll have to start looking at the shaved bay threads for wire harness building guides. Anything else to make things easier? I have a mk2 and mk3 bentley.


I may have had a hand in these two... and more...


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

We're going to have to have a discussion about what seems to be your two favorite topics!

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## Project D (Sep 3, 2005)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I may have had a hand in these two... and more...


Pardon me while I drool all over myself...

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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Project D said:


> Pardon me while I drool all over myself...


Luckily I don't have to pay to build them, or pay myself!


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I do have some skin in the game on this topic! *I* can get pins cheaper, but I buy them in bulk, like lots bulk. I also loan out the pin tool with deposit so they can be properly crimped. Plus I can also get the little weather plugs into that price too, which the factory "fix it" connectors don't.
> 
> I do love a nice, new engine harness. It's a thing of beauty.


Bulk is the only way to go when buying those pins IMO. Which crimper tool are you using? I need a new one. This cheap one isn't cutting it anymore.

The dealer "fix it" connectors (I assume you are referring to the repair pins?) don't come with the seals, but they can be ordered separately. As long as the dealer parts guy is competent :laugh:


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

When you guys are rebuilding harnesses are you following the old one as reference, a wiring diagram, or combination of both?

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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I forget the brand, I will post it later. Ratcheting, its boss. 

I redo the whole thing from scratch and only reuse the fuseblock and engine side connectors and usually not much else. I make my own diagrams and wiring schedules for every job.


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

itschrisb said:


> When you guys are rebuilding harnesses are you following the old one as reference, a wiring diagram, or combination of both?





need_a_VR6 said:


> I forget the brand, I will post it later. Ratcheting, its boss.
> 
> I redo the whole thing from scratch and only reuse the fuseblock and engine side connectors and usually not much else. I make my own diagrams and wiring schedules for every job.


I do the same for the most part. I will base things on an existing wiring diagram to an extent, but usually if I am going that far with a car I am re-engineering things anyways (Such as the fan control module).

The biggest part for building a harness IMO is wire routing. I start at each sensor then route to the fuseblock or ecu or wherever the wiring needs to end up at. But starting at the sensors allows for easy routing.


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

My minds going to explode!

Okay so if I were to go with let's say Megasquirt and then build my own harness. Electrical wiring not being my strong suit. Am I in over my head? Where should I look for some helpful information? 

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## pubahs (Apr 2, 2002)

here's my harness for reference, since it seems to be a hot topic. Obd1.. I've eliminated most things but have retained the ISV.. also this is a FI car too. 





























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## Project D (Sep 3, 2005)

Damn, that is pure copper sex, right there.

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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

pubahs said:


> here's my harness for reference, since it seems to be a hot topic. Obd1.. I've eliminated most things but have retained the ISV.. also this is a FI car too.


You get outa here with your Raychem, unless you plan on sending me some shrink boots


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

Okay the more I look at it the more I'm starting to understand. As far as Megasquirt goes, what connectors are included to start the building process?

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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

itschrisb said:


> Okay the more I look at it the more I'm starting to understand. As far as Megasquirt goes, what connectors are included to start the building process?


Generally with MS it's connected at the MS end and left to field terminate (at the engine, fuseblock, whatever). You route it where you need it to go, add pins and connectors, wrap in appropriate sleeving and done. You can make it as simple or as complicated as you like.


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

Thanks

Okay what about wideband o2 sensors. I'm adding a couple gauges and would like to do an air/fuel gauge also. Rather than buy twice I'd rather get one that can be used with standalone eventually. Any suggestions or corrections on my question.

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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

With gauge the Aem is probably the most robust for a simple setup on the cheap followed by the Innovate mtxl. Non gauge I use 14point7 Spartans. Fast cars I use the ngk/ballenger afx.


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> With gauge the Aem is probably the most robust for a simple setup on the cheap followed by the Innovate mtxl. Non gauge I use 14point7 Spartans. Fast cars I use the ngk/ballenger afx.


About to put in my 14point7 Spartan wideband on my car. Installed a few 14point7 setups over the last few years in various cars. Haven't had a hiccup in them yet. :thumbup:


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

That ngk is wonderful for cheap/reliable o2 sensors


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

I'd like something with some sort of display. Just so I can see what's going on and monitor it. I might go with the Ngk I like the little box display over the round gauges.

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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

itschrisb said:


> I'd like something with some sort of display. Just so I can see what's going on and monitor it. I might go with the Ngk I like the little box display over the round gauges.


On a street car I'd recommend it with the Bosch 4.9 sensor over the NGK wideband as it has a bigger lean range. NGK sensor on race cars, it's pretty much the best out there.


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## bgi corrado (Apr 2, 2009)

*Coil packs*



Project D said:


> Pardon me while I drool all over myself...
> 
> Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk


Can anyone point me in the right direction as to how I can acquire those red msd coul packs for the vr6


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## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

bgi corrado said:


> Can anyone point me in the right direction as to how I can acquire those red msd coul packs for the vr6


http://www.vr6coilbracket.com/


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

For the record, let me state how much I dislike the MSD coils.


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## pubahs (Apr 2, 2002)

I second that notion. My Bosch unit works perfectly.. the msd did but never fully trusted it 

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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> For the record, let me state how much I dislike the MSD coils.


They seriously suck. High failure rate, have to use custom plug wires, have to use a goofy bracket and just looks out of place.

I'll stick with my bosch motorsports coilpack. 60% spark output increase over stock. Factory plug wires and bolts to the stock location. :thumbup:


























Also this will help keep the coilpack from cracking:
https://phenixengineering.com/shop/vr6-coil-pack-insulator/


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

It would be so lucrative to make a booth at domestic drag events that just sells MSD boxes and coils. The number of failures is just staggering.

I think I'm going ford coilpack whenever I have an issue with my current stocker.

Which Motorsport coilpack is that?


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

root beer said:


> It would be so lucrative to make a booth at domestic drag events that just sells MSD boxes and coils. The number of failures is just staggering.
> 
> I think I'm going ford coilpack whenever I have an issue with my current stocker.
> 
> Which Motorsport coilpack is that?


Nah, don't do the ford coil pack... this one fits MUCH better and isn't much more expensive. Sending you a PM now. :thumbup:


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

TheBurninator said:


> Nah, don't do the ford coil pack... this one fits MUCH better and isn't much more expensive. Sending you a PM now.


Oh come on! Why do you have to keep it private 

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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

itschrisb said:


> Oh come on! Why do you have to keep it private
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


I have a full writeup on it that I will be finishing up this week. Just been waiting for some connectors :thumbup:
It will be worth the wait.


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## Project D (Sep 3, 2005)

Glad to hear it. Please link to the write-up here when it's up, I'm really looking forward to reading it.

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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Interested to see how the icm likes that coil. Also, you know the recommended dwell for those?


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Interested to see how the icm likes that coil. Also, you know the recommended dwell for those?


Guess I'll be finding out how it holds up. I can't imagine it being an issue though as Bosch uses the factory 2.7T ICM for this coil. And that isn't really much different in design.

Dwell info is on page 2 :thumbup:
http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/medi...re_Coil_3x2_Datasheet_51_en_2778235019pdf.pdf


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...otorsport-Coilpack-Swap-With-Stock-Management

Finished the coilpack writeup. I will dig up the part numbers tomorrow when I find the parts receipt from the dealer.


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## DustyGTI (Apr 16, 2005)

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## Njegos18t (Jul 31, 2007)

Well guys I have decided my go with Lugtronic on my car, anybody interested in buying a mk3 obd2 ecu with c2 262 cam chip, brand new Bosch O2 sensor and obd2 MAF. I'm willing to let go for cheap


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Nice man, me too. I'm keeping all my oem stuff though. I'll burn that bridge later, haha.


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

Does anyone know of someone who could make up a dry sump oil pan? I know INA makes one and if I have to go that route I will but I'm trying to exhaust other options before hand. 

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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

More theoretical BS:


So, I've been thinking more about manifolds and available space. It seems that the Juan SRIs aren't too short in design when paired with a lower. Just by eyeballing it, it looks a couple inches shorter, which is almost perfect for a cammed car. The issue is that they aren't runner compensated and the plenum isn't tapered. Fix that, and I don't think it'd be a bad manifold with cams.

Another thing I've had kicking around in my head is 3D printed trumpets that could be pressed into something like a gutted/2.9 clone and welded back up. Think something that's all one piece... Would straighten out the air and speed it up by keeping the incoming air off the floor/walls/ceiling while smoothing the transition from square to round runners. 

Or a complete, 3D printed, center-fed upper that bolts to the lower would be pretty interesting. 

IDK, I can't help but feel like there's some power as well as the, obviously higher HP peak, in a relatively simple manifold that's still roughly the shape of the OEM one and won't require crazy re-packaging and Honda radiators.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

If you go over the motor there is plenty of room for runners and the plenum. Totally do-able, just never seen one made like that.


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> If you go over the motor there is plenty of room for runners and the plenum. Totally do-able, just never seen one made like that.


Exactly. It's not as ideal as straight stacks/runners, but it could be interesting. :beer:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I take that back, there was a Corrado with an over the motor manifold that looked like a pair of headers. Had dual throttle bodies from what I remember. Like most "show" things probably never hit the dyno.










This but runner compensated with a plenum and big single TB in the back.


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

That looks absolutely ridiculous! 

There was also this one









He did it to hide the throttle body but he actually drove the car and I believe he said he Dynoed the car at 450ish. 

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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I take that back, there was a Corrado with an over the motor manifold that looked like a pair of headers. Had dual throttle bodies from what I remember. Like most "show" things probably never hit the dyno.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This car was local to me. He made less HP than stock.



itschrisb said:


> That looks absolutely ridiculous!
> 
> There was also this one
> 
> ...


This car is interesting. Owner of it owns Skip tuning up in Quebec. Dude has a crazy hot wife :laugh:
He said this setup was based off of a stock Toyota intake manifold.:thumbup:


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

Yea there isn't much info on the car, I remember seeing it in a VWFiend YouTube video. 

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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

itschrisb said:


> Yea there isn't much info on the car, I remember seeing it in a VWFiend YouTube video.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


Here is the intake manifold he used to base that setup on:


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

Speaking of manifolds, I was thinking about this the other night. Since we have dual exhaust manifolds would a true dual exhaust system make any power?

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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I take that back, there was a Corrado with an over the motor manifold that looked like a pair of headers. Had dual throttle bodies from what I remember. Like most "show" things probably never hit the dyno.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have pics of that in a folder on my desktop. Those runners look waaaaaay long, though. Got a bunch from the various SRI threads here and on Honda forums.


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

itschrisb said:


> Speaking of manifolds, I was thinking about this the other night. Since we have dual exhaust manifolds would a true dual exhaust system make any power?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


Not really. Longer primaries coming off of the manifolds would help though. :thumbup:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I think it would work a lot better with staggered lengths and a plenum surrounding it with a single TB.


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

Rootbeer is this the flexalite controller you're running? 

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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Yep


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## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

root beer said:


> Yep


Awesome and did you run a relay with it or just wire that right to the battery? 

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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

The directions said you don't need a relay, but I used a single 40a for my 2 eBay 12" pullers.


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## mastoras7 (Mar 20, 2016)

hi from greece . i want buy 268 cams, will i need new chip ? (i run an ebay chip right now)


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## mastoras7 (Mar 20, 2016)

hi from greece. I want buy a set of 268 cams, will i need a new chip ? right now i'm running a chip from ebay


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## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

You will not need new chip.

When you say ebay chip, are you talking about the resistor? Or is it an actual chip?


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

mastoras7 said:


> hi from greece. I want buy a set of 268 cams, will i need a new chip ? right now i'm running a chip from ebay





GTIVRon said:


> You will not need new chip.
> 
> When you say ebay chip, are you talking about the resistor? Or is it an actual chip?


He will need a tune that matches what he is running motor wise. So unless you have a Cam Chip, you will need a new one.
Get outta here with that ebay junk too. :thumbup:


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## mastoras7 (Mar 20, 2016)

GTIVRon said:


> You will not need new chip.
> 
> When you say ebay chip, are you talking about the resistor? Or is it an actual chip?


it's a real chip. have i good afr results with this chip? . this is my chip : http://www.ebay.de/itm/Echtes-Chipt...id=100005&rk=2&rkt=6&mehot=pp&sd=380576467077


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## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

TheBurninator said:


> He will need a tune that matches what he is running motor wise. So unless you have a Cam Chip, you will need a new one.
> Get outta here with that ebay junk too. :thumbup:


My car still runs fine on GIAC non-cam chip with my cams. It's been confirmed the cam chip simply raises idle.


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

GTIVRon said:


> My car still runs fine on GIAC non-cam chip with my cams. It's been confirmed the cam chip simply raises idle.


I'm not sure I believe that. Can you provide a source for this info? :thumbup:

The car will run without a cam specific chip, but I would expect fueling tables at a minimum to be different.


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## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

TheBurninator said:


> I'm not sure I believe that. Can you provide a source for this info? :thumbup:
> 
> The car will run without a cam specific chip, but I would expect fueling tables at a minimum to be different.


It's archived somewhere, but you can call them if you want; I did and they told me the cam chip would only raise the idle.

And I still pull on stock (Mk5/6) 2.0Ts and hang real tight with Stage 2 1.8Ts.


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

If it's any consellation, the C2 chips for the mk3 ABA motors have a "cam file" as well, and it simply raises the idle up by 100 rpm over stock. Timing/fuel maps are all the same. I can't speak on any other manufacturers, but I'd be willing to bet that no one is going to put hours and hours of R&D into an all motor cam specific file for the ABA or VR when all you'll get is literally a few whp more.

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## mastoras7 (Mar 20, 2016)

with a non-cam chip they will work but they have a safe a/f ratios ?


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

The MAF sensor will correct any minor changes from a cam.
It will be able to tell more air is getting into the cylinder and add more fuel to compensate.


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

Alingarhs said:


> The MAF sensor will correct any minor changes from a cam.
> It will be able to tell more air is getting into the cylinder and add more fuel to compensate.


Ish. It is still better to have it dialed in so the ECU isn't constantly trying to compensate. It isn't like ME 5.9 has a wideband to do real corrections to AFR. It can just ball park it with the MAF reading volume of air.

I'd be curious to see some logging on cams, vs no cams with the same tune.


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## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

...

I dare you to find a single company whose cam chip does anything other than raise idle for the 12v.

Not that OBD1 logs give great resolution, but I still have no timing pull, and fueling looks damn near identical. Being a 2.8L low revving engine with a poor flowing head, not much changes.

People think the GIAC cam chips are worth 10x their weight in gold which is why I don't have one after talking to GIAC and them confirming nothing but idle changes. I just deal with blipping the throttle near idle when coming down from higher RPM to prevent stalling. Hardly experience that in day-to-day commute, and was most exacerbated by the light flywheel.


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

GTIVRon said:


> ...
> 
> I dare you to find a single company whose cam chip does anything other than raise idle for the 12v.
> 
> ...


You very well could be right about this. I was just hoping for a solid confirmation on that tidbit.
OBD2 has a bit better resolution. But your point more or less still stands.

Idle can be adjusted anyways on OBD2, so non-issue there. OBD1 just adjust the dash-pot to catch a bit sooner.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Even me2.9 has fuel trims. They work pretty well.


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## justin717 (Aug 18, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Great thread, lots of good little info! 

I'm looking into different management for my build and am really interested in MicroSquirt. Anyone run one on a VR6 yet? I see that Paul offers them on KPTuned, looking for some feedback. Main thing I like is ECU size, I can hide it easily. I'm also looking at Nirtous and I like the Idea of the ECU setup fro NOS over stock ECU.


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## chrislim (Mar 10, 2016)

Mm I'm m. I. I.


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## blackslcchild (Dec 13, 2012)

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...9606322091&ref=m_notif&notif_t=group_activity
Chip, tune,
And 268 cams.


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

Nice. Is it runner compensated? I'm assuming it has velocity stacks also?


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

Also, I was looking at a dyno of an M50 manifold swap on an s52 M3. 

With the stock tune it lost a good amount of low end. With a tune it gained everywhere and more than the 13 HP peak it had on the stock tune. 

Anyone with more knowledge than me think the bit of low end losses inherent in SRIs on VR6 Cars can be tuned out with A/F?


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## brian500 (Mar 24, 2008)

Spun a bearing in my built motor. So I will do a dyno run with the manifold I have and see what kind of numbers it will put down. Motor will be stock "junkyard motor" . VEMS ecu.


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## mastoras7 (Mar 20, 2016)

i find a 2.9 mani and TB for 150euros .will have i any gains ?


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

mastoras7 said:


> i find a 2.9 mani and TB for 150euros .will have i any gains ?


Yes :thumbup:


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## Jaketheone46 (Jun 21, 2015)

Does anyone know of a test pipe for the mk4 gti to eliminate the convertor. I seen the link for the mk3 vr6 test pipe but don't see anything like this for the mk4 12v AFP vr6.


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## obdONE (Jan 28, 2002)

Jaketheone46 said:


> Does anyone know of a test pipe for the mk4 gti to eliminate the convertor. I seen the link for the mk3 vr6 test pipe but don't see anything like this for the mk4 12v AFP vr6.


It's the same piece. You can order it from TechTonics or 42 draft, etc.


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## Jaketheone46 (Jun 21, 2015)

obdONE said:


> It's the same piece. You can order it from TechTonics or 42 draft, etc.


Really?? I noticed it does not list mk4 as being compatable so I contacted them to ask and they said they currently don't have one available for the mk4 which led me to believe the mk3 one won't work on the mk4. You would think they would have told me the mk3 vr6 test pipe fits the mk4 as well.


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

In the Mk4 12v the cat is integral with the downpipe. You either chop the cat off, fab a collector/megaphone, then build a test pie, or swap to a Mk3 downpipe, and fab a test pipe. The Mk3 downpipe is a tight fit with the subframe in a Mk4.


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## obdONE (Jan 28, 2002)

Oh that's right. I completely forgot. The cat is integrated into the downpipe on a mk4. 

I have a mk3 gti with a BDF 24v. I originally used the stock downpipe and cat in my swap and cut off the end of the cat at a 3" cross section, welded on a 3" vband flange, and then connected it to my 3" exhaust that was left over from my 12v turbo. 

That setup really didn't work very well for me and fit very poorly so I ended up getting a TT 24v downpipe, mk3 test pipe, and mk3 2.5" cat back.

The TT 24v downpipe has a 3 bolt flange on it just like the stock mk3 12v downpipe and the test pipe, so everything worked great for me.

The mk3 test pipe will fit and work on the mk4 but you'll have to cut the cat off the stock downpipe and then figure out a way to connect the test pipe to the downpipe afterwards (like welding on a 3 bolt flange), just like John stamos said. Or maybe you'll have to change out the downpipe and test pipe together. 

Can I ask why you're wanting the test pipe though? Is your cat clogged up? A test pipe by itself isn't going to do much by way of giving you more power, so if that's what you're after I'd say skip the headache. If it's clogged up or otherwise not operating correctly, it might be better and easier in the long run if you were to just hollow out your cat and leave it attached.

Sorry for the confusion. 


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Mk3 needs the tt 24v downpipe and uses the stock mk3 cat in that case.


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Scrap your mk4.


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## Jaketheone46 (Jun 21, 2015)

root beer said:


> Scrap your mk4.


Hey I like my mk4. Even though it is a pain in my ass sometimes. Is yours a mk3


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## root beer (Jun 22, 2004)

Yea, just kidding though. At least galvanized bodies don't rust!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Kicking myself I gave up the rust free MK3 shell! :wave:


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Kicking myself I gave up the rust free MK3 shell! :wave:


Those exist? :laugh::laugh:


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## Jaketheone46 (Jun 21, 2015)

root beer said:


> Yea, just kidding though. At least galvanized bodies don't rust!


Galvanized?? Which one cause my mk4 has some rust that's for sure. Right behind the front wheels. Really sucks I so wish mine was rust free. I see so many part outs that look sweet and it just hurts me. Lol mine runs pretty good though other than one thing I'm trying to solve. While in gear after coasting when I apply throttle I feel a click in the pedal. Almost like a relay or something. If I step in the throttle fast it don't do it. And it won't do it in neutral. I've had it up on stands looking all over for anything loose and inserted some BFI inserts while under there and can't find anything. I have had it do this click while letting out the clutch when getting on the throttle as well and I felt it in that pedal too. Very weird


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

TheBurninator said:


> Those exist? :laugh::laugh:


May be the last one.


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## freedomtanker (Aug 9, 2006)

brian500 said:


> Spun a bearing in my built motor. So I will do a dyno run with the manifold I have and see what kind of numbers it will put down. Motor will be stock "junkyard motor" . VEMS ecu.


have any numbers on this yet? I was thinking of putting a log on the top of my manifold as well. wondering if it would be worth my time or money.


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## brian500 (Mar 24, 2008)

Not yet. Still working on a couple things out so its road worthy.


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## Charlies54 (Mar 29, 2015)

Schrick 268


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## wolfens_golf (Dec 30, 2009)

Hey guys!

Just bought a sweet 12v VR6 Corrado from a fellow vortex member. Super pleased with the car overall. 

I definitely have some plans over the winter to get a little more power out of the mighty obd1 dizzy vr. 

Great thread btw, I've read up to page 35. Has taken a couple hours for sure... (ill get caught up)

My question, regarding the exhaust. If I port the stock manifolds, get a TT down pipe, previously mentioned this will make a little more HP's. What if I also get a high flow catalytic converter 2.5 dia, and install an electric cutout. Either install it pre or post cat?

Would basically straight piping the engine provide more power? Or cause a negative effect? This would be complimented with a chip, lw pulleys, cold air, 1.8t iat sensor, lw flywheel, shrick manifold, and 262 cams. 


Thanks for reading :beer:


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## attack chicken (Sep 3, 2006)

wolfens_golf said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> Just bought a sweet 12v VR6 Corrado from a fellow vortex member. Super pleased with the car overall.
> 
> ...



I would guess the money would be better spent on a full 3in exhaust from the TT down pipe back. I'm getting older and the noise of a dump even after a cat would never be justifiable on a driver based on the super tiny amount of power gain if there even is a gain. If you have to have a cat because of inspections then 3in from that back. I got a super quiet 2.5in system and a 42dd test pipe and its great but sometimes it's too quiet even for me. I think most of the time I would be ok with the sound of a vr and 3in exhaust, I just can't convince myself to get another system...yet haha! I'm sure someone else that has experience with a cut out will chime in, that's just my opinion. Unless it's through a turbo.... I would be ok with a large tube exhaust straight off the turbo all the way out back on a vr, that would be cool!:thumbup:


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## wolfens_golf (Dec 30, 2009)

Yes the cat is required for emissions. In ontario the mto is getting to be ridiculously strict.

Funny that you mention vrt. I had a vrt project, but decided to go another route. To much time and $$ into it. 

3" not sure if its to much? Especially over the rear beam. Fitment ive heard can be an issue. Especially when lowered. Had 3" on my mk4 24v, had a cup kit and it was tighttt. Felt like I lost abit of torque from the butt dyno too. 

Also possibility of overkill with a minor modded 12ver?


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## attack chicken (Sep 3, 2006)

3in all the way even on a slightly modded vr. The beam is the tough spot especially on a lowered car. Mbs makes a nice system although someone who's used it will have to comment on beam clearance. Here's a great thread on 2.5 or 3in.


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4969653-Vr6-exhaust-dyno-2.5-quot-vs-3-quot-back-to-back.


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## Spiller337 (Nov 27, 2009)

attack chicken said:


> 3in all the way even on a slightly modded vr. The beam is the tough spot especially on a lowered car. Mbs makes a nice system although someone who's used it will have to comment on beam clearance. Here's a great thread on 2.5 or 3in.
> 
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4969653-Vr6-exhaust-dyno-2.5-quot-vs-3-quot-back-to-back.


Have one. Car is slightly lowered, and clearence is TIGHT. If I could do it again I would go with the 3 inch system from CTS.


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## wolfens_golf (Dec 30, 2009)

Great thread! Thank you for that! 

That settle the 3". Anyone else have input?

Ive looked into MBS. Looks like quality stuff. And sounds really nice. Although they use a Magnaflow muffler? 

Most vr6s I hear with magnaflow sound like garbage. Very tinny/ raspy up top. 

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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I got 3.5 to go over the axle. 3" is no problem.


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## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jPt0ZGQQU04

3" MBS


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## wolfens_golf (Dec 30, 2009)

Sounds good! 

Cat installed? 

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## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

3" here. On a low mk3 and a real low mk2. Bashed floor up a bit and fits with room all round.


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## crannky (Jun 24, 2006)

wolfens_golf said:


> Great thread! Thank you for that!
> 
> That settle the 3". Anyone else have input?
> 
> ...


All the quick VRs sound raspy. Join them.

#TeamRasp


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## Mk1 James (Feb 23, 2014)

https://vimeo.com/185990133


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## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

wolfens_golf said:


> Sounds good!
> 
> Cat installed?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk


I got the exhaust with the cat. Not sure how much of the honeycomb was still in there... ran rich for a while, don't have the throttle stop plunger deal (it's there, just fully collapsed and won't extend so not doing it's function) so would pop flames on lift sometimes, often leaving glowing red bits behind me, ha ha.

I will be replacing the blown to pieces cat with a resonator soon. And welding a cat heat shield to it.


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## wolfens_golf (Dec 30, 2009)

But back to the electric exhaust cutout....

Lets say I were to install it, besides being very loud when open, would it impact performance in a negative way? 


And on separate note. 

Water meth, anyone running it on their vr6? Non boosted application? 

I have a kit kicking around, would it be pointless to install it? 

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## attack chicken (Sep 3, 2006)

wolfens_golf said:


> Water meth, anyone running it on their vr6? Non boosted application?
> 
> I have a kit kicking around, would it be pointless to install it?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk



I would think the only reason to use that would be if you had control of timing advance and possibly fuel enrichment.. you could advance the timing and lean it out some but other than cleaning all the carbon out of the top end I'm not sure there would be much benifit to using it in a stockish n/a build.... but if you had something pressurizing the intake it would be nice at some point. However I've never used one on anything personally, just have had a good friend with it on a turbo swap g60 so I don't really have too much experience with it.


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## GTIVRon (Jul 24, 2009)

I looked into a cutout, then talked to somebody with one.

He had replaced his recently because the motor failed and couldn't be serviced, and was under the warranty period. They both leaked when closed after the car had warmed up.

I was going to go ahead with it anyway, until I started looking at where to mount it. Then I bought the MBS system.


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## wolfens_golf (Dec 30, 2009)

Ok cool. Thanks guys. 

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## Hollagraphik (Nov 9, 2005)

From what I've read, switching to a 4.24 instead of say, a 3.94 drive would be wheel spin city in the lower gears. But would there be a benefit of using a 4.24 in a heavy car? Like one with a heavy stereo set up or a Cabrio?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

It will make the car feel quicker for sure. 1-2 will feel quite short and you will want a long 5th for the highway.


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## HaydenVR6 (Jul 21, 2011)

Bump


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## prrooks (May 29, 2017)

My new bible 

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## veersixxx (Aug 3, 2006)

I followed the VR6 bible to a “T”

https://youtu.be/X6d2V0Qdx5g


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## jai5 (Apr 30, 2006)

veersixxx said:


> I followed the VR6 bible to a “T”
> 
> https://youtu.be/X6d2V0Qdx5g


Awesome! :thumbup:


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## RaulMk216v (Nov 22, 2016)

*uhhh*



root beer said:


> The purpose of this thread is to give my take on the best way to put together a simple, reliable, relatively powerful Naturally Aspirated Vr6 car. I’m trying to make my explanations as simple as possible, so if anything is confusing, shoot me a message, and I’ll try to revise the thread as best as possible. The same goes for inaccuracies. I’m always learning, and I’m willing to bet there’s more than a few assumptions in here that are inaccurate, so shoot me a message.
> I've got a goal to grow the VW performance aftermarket. There’s so much potential in many of these motors to go fast, cheaply. So, the the best way I can think to do it is by getting info out there.
> Through the engine, this will more or less follow the path of air.
> *1. Air Intake(Stock-cai)*
> ...



so i may have missed it but what overall power are you making? and to the wheels.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Most guys following the guide are right around 200whp.


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