# W12 Engine - Starting Difficulties when Warm - Chicago Area Fuel



## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

i thought I remembered reading this somewhere before, but this is a really odd thing which has not happened with previous cars I've had...after driving for some minutes (errands for expl) when I return to the car and start it very often it dies, 2-3 times even and only works when I step on the gas a little....I thought with fuel injection cars this should not be done generally, nor have I ever found it necessary whereas with the Phaeton it happens disconcertingly with all too regular frequency.







Is this normal???








Ed.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (viscount)*

Hey! Mine just started doing that about 2 weeks ago. Exactly the same as you described it. It always seems to start OK on the third try, though.
I'm not sure what to make of it - I haven't figured out what it correlates to (wet weather, cold weather, just after a car wash, whatever), and for that reason, I don't want to take it back to the dealership until I can get the problem pinned down better. FYI, the car is not recording any fault codes when this happens.
Any guesses from your end?
Michael


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (PanEuropean)*

No, the car only has about 450 miles on it to date and it happens perhaps 50% of the time without any rhyme or reason...whether cold, etc. seems not to make any difference. The only consistency is that it happens after the car's been running, not when starting up after a lengthy time. It starts, sputters and then dies. I guess there isn't enough fuel going in and perhaps there's some program for the engine that prevents fuel added upon ignition if the car senses it has already been going for a while?








Ed.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (viscount)*

Now that you mention it, my experience has also been that this problem has only occurred after I have driven the car for a while and it has reached operating temperature. I have encountered this problem about 3 times, most recently this afternoon. My car has about 3,000 miles on it (car is 5 months old).
Michael


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## vwguild (Feb 15, 2001)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (PanEuropean)*

Gentlemen...Check your batteries!!!


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (vwguild)*

Thanks, I thought of that, but did not see any difference on the voltage gauge in the instrument cluster...should I have the dealer check it out?
Thanks
Ed


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (vwguild)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwguild* »_Gentlemen...Check your batteries!!!

Do you really think so, Peter? It would seem to me that the batteries should be at peak charge after we have driven the car for a while. In the two most recent times I had this problem, I drove for about half an hour, then the car was shut down for about half an hour.
I'm kind of speculating that maybe fuel is vaporizing somewhere in the engine area due to retained heat (this being just a wild-ass guess, in the absence of any better ideas).
Michael


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## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (PanEuropean)*

During this time of year - when it is cold outside - one can accumulate moisture in the gas... Don't let the vehicle run with less than 1/2 of a tank of gas....
Usually, this type of problem would exhibit itself when recently there has been a significant moisture content in the air accompanied by fairly cool temps (low 30s/upper 20s or cooler at night)...
I have had this kind of problem once myself (a couple of years ago) - remember that the water in the gas tank will settle to the bottom - the water is denser than the gas.
How long were your vehicles stopped/turned off before you tried restarting and had the problem??
Douglas


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (copernicus0001)*

usually not long shut off while having this problem. Your explanation makes sense Douglas, however I've never had this problem with other cars ever- including my late and great S8...it just doesnt make sense that a car as well engineered as the phaeton would have an issue such as this, but it does say in the manual that sometimes when the car is hot, depressing the accelerator is necessary!!
Ed


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (viscount)*


_Quote, originally posted by *viscount* »_... it does say in the manual that sometimes when the car is hot, depressing the accelerator is necessary!!

Ah-ha. That might be the fix, then. BTW, same observation from my end - the problem has only happened when the car has been turned off for a short period - perhaps 3 to 5 minutes. Any less time or any more time turned off, no problems.
Michael


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (PanEuropean)*

Thanks, since the dealer is picking it up tomorrow for the promised detail and minor paint repair I'll ask they check it out...
Ed...


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## vm12 (Dec 10, 2004)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (viscount)*

About four months ago right after I bought my new W12 I had posted in regards to this same issue. After it being in the shop for a couple weeks VW determined that after letting the car run for a while, and then being off for more then 20 min, this issue will happen repeatedly. At that time there were only a hand full of W12 in the country with this issue. It is not the battery or anything else that you would logically think of. VW concluded that this is a computer software issue. For some reason the computer shuts the car off. Today I dropped my car off again to see if, after downloading the new computer patch, this issue will be resolved. I was informed by my dealer that a few W12 will have the new computer patch downloaded tomorrow. As soon as I pick my car up I will let everyone know if the computer patch was the cure. 
My VW mechanic was puzzled because the car was not recording any fault codes when this happens. That's why they contacted VW in Germany to find what can be done. My car had 900 miles when this started.


_Modified by vm12 at 10:22 PM 2-14-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (vm12)*

Hi Viktor:
Thanks very much for sharing this information, it is great news. When you speak to the technician at your dealership, would you please ask him or her to give you some kind of reference for the software update (a file name, or something like that)? Or, could you post the name of your dealer, so when the rest of us take our W12's in for the update, we can tell our dealers who VW tech support should contact to get the correct information?
Many thanks, 
Michael


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## vm12 (Dec 10, 2004)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (PanEuropean)*

I just spoke to my service manager and there isn't a file name that he can reference to because they don't know how the upgrade will work to fix the issue. Randy Macca is the service manager of VW Autobarn of Countryside IL. He is more then willing to help in answering any questions that other dealers might have. The only reason why I am still a VW customer and still have my W12 is because of the customer care of VW of Contryside. I will keep you informed as to what happened after I pick-up my car.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (vm12)*

I don't have much to contribute to this discussion except a photo. This is one beauty of an engine!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (vm12)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vm12* »_ The only reason why I am still a VW customer and still have my W12 is because of the customer care of VW of Countryside. 

Hi Viktor:
Thanks a lot for that information, and the information you provided about how to contact Randy at VW of Countryside. I also have a really great dealer, and I agree with you, it makes all the difference in the world.
If you wish, please feel free to add a recommendation on the Phaeton dealers that we (Phaeton owners) recommend post. That post is also listed in the Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category) for our forum, as a resource for new forum members who intend to buy a Phaeton.
Let us know what your experience is with your Phaeton after you have driven it for a while. I'm keen to find out if the software change fixes the starting problem.
Michael


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## Jack Orr (Mar 15, 2000)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (Paldi)*

Fred, this is really weird. I have three different pictures of a W12 engine viewed from the front. They are all different as to the belt and pulleys and tensioners arrangement. I can't tell which version is on my car, for sure.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (Jack Orr)*

Jack: 
The photo above is the final production engine. There were some photos released in 2001 of the W12 that was used in the Nardo car - that had a prototype engine.
The photo above is courtesy of the press department at the Glass Factory in Dresden, they gave it to me last week - so, I am confident this is the correct one.
Michael


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (vm12)*

thanks very much! I am dealing with Autobarn of Evanston, and I will relay what your experience has been. They have had my car now for 2 days...


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (Jack Orr)*

Here is another picture of the production version of the W12 engine, installed in a North American Phaeton.
*W12 Engine*


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (PanEuropean)*

A thing of beauty....meanwhile I still drive a toureg for the time being...apparently they are working on the software issue but after lenghty consultations with engineers @ vw are also replacing an fuel pressure valve (or something like that). They have gone through the entire fuel system....hopefully tomorrow it will be finished!! And then I'll still have to wait for a few days as the radar shop is still waiting for the car







I'll report back their findings. Incidentally for the second time in a week and hitherto not before sans a brief glimpse 6 months + ago I spotted another black W12 in my neighborhood of the south loop on Michigan Ave...however tonight it occurred to me that perhaps this evening's car was actually my own driven by a phaeton "specialist" from the dealer








Ed.


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (viscount)*

Well they replaced the fuel pressure regulator in the end. They said that the software patch is still being worked on but that this appears to have solved the problem! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Ed.


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## Phaetonian (Nov 21, 2004)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (PanEuropean)*

Precisely! Only after the car has been turned off for short period of time.
I've had the same thing. 2004 Premiere Edition W12
Tom


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (Phaetonian)*

We'll see how this fuel regulator replacement works out...i do not have my car back yet, but they said it did the trick. If its not that, then they said it must be a software issue.
Ed.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (Phaetonian)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Phaetonian* »_I've had the same thing. 2004 Premiere Edition W12

Hi Tom:
Looks like we have picked up a fleetwide issue here. This will be interesting to follow, I think it's the first fleetwide matter we have encountered in North America with Phaetons.
My experience so far is that the problem is unquestionably present on my car, but it is very sporadic - it affects me about once a month. 
Michael


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (PanEuropean)*

Hello, got my car back tonight! I was forgetting just how great a car it is.... I was busy giving the sales manager a comparison to my old car (03 S8) when he asked me how I liked it as I was picking it up, when I realized, what am I thinking?! There's no comparison!








In any event this "hot restart" problem appears to have gone away with the replacement cited above. 
Ed.


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (viscount)*

I will be very interested to know if this has, indeed, solved the problem. We had an engineer from VW in CA come out as we have a W12 in currently experiencing the same issue. Found fuel was boiling in the lines while the vehicle was cooling down. He has returned to California with multiple fuel samples from our region (as Chicago is where the problem appears to be most highly concentrated) and will report back to us. As soon as I hear back, I will certainly post information.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_...Found fuel was boiling in the lines while the vehicle was cooling down.

That sounds like a pretty reasonable and logical finding - I was kind of guessing that it might be something like that. I can't see how they will be able to come up with a workaround for that problem, though - I doubt that there is provision in the system for fuel recirculation back to the tank, in order to cool the liquid in the lines.
Michael


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (PanEuropean)*

Hello, the repair seemed to do the trick but its acting up again...what I don't understand is why would the fuel be boiling in this car and not others then??








Ed.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (viscount)*

My guess is that the fuel is boiling because everything is so tightly packed under the hood of the W12 engine. There is a lot more ventilation around the V8.
I kind of like the 'fuel boiling' theory - it fits with the fact that we only encounter this problem if we try and restart the car a few minutes after we have shut it down. If we restart it within, say, 1 minute, there has not been enough time for the fuel in the lines to get really hot. If we wait longer than 5 minutes, the heat dissipates.
If that's all there is to it, then I can live with this little quirk - just knowing what it is and what causes it is (to me, anyway) 99% of a solution.
Michael


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## Jack Orr (Mar 15, 2000)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (viscount)*

Maybe you need to come down to Texas and get a tank full........
I bet on the fuel being bad- at least in the Phaeton.


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## move.over (Nov 25, 2004)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (PanEuropean)*

Might be the Ethanol added to the fuel during the winter months. Most likely more is added in the cold weather states. Ethanol evaporates more easily and could cause a Vapor lock. A potential solution would be to insulate the fuel lines from the engine bay heat.
Before fuel pumps were mounted in the gas tanks Vapor lock was a very common occurence during hot summer months.


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## pete643 (Apr 23, 2003)

I think there is a difference in winter fuel and summer fuel in certain areas of North America, with the winter fuel containing more alcohol. I would think the extra alcohol would certainly contribute to fuel boiling, and that would explain why certain cars do it and others don't.
BTW, I'm usually just a lurker here as I don't have a Phaeton, but I love the car. I had this winter fuel boil issue in another car and thought if I brought it up it might be of some help.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (pete643)*

Hi Pete:
Welcome to the forum, and thanks very much for your help and your observation.
Michael


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (PanEuropean)*

I have tentative confirmation the problem will disappear when we (in Chicagoland) switch over to the "summer blend" fuel in a month or so. I was also informed VW is working on a software update which will enable the ECMs to better cope with the winter fuel. As soon as I know more, I will certainly update! Hang in there, guys!


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## pete643 (Apr 23, 2003)

I think there is a difference in winter fuel and summer fuel in certain areas of North America, with the winter fuel containing more alcohol. I would think the extra alcohol would certainly contribute to fuel boiling, and that would explain why certain cars do it and others don't.
BTW, I'm usually just a lurker here as I don't have a Phaeton, but I love the car. I had this winter fuel boil issue in another car and thought if I brought it up it might be of some help.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (pete643)*

Hi Pete:
Welcome to the forum, and thanks a lot for contributing your experience to this discussion.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Hi All:
I have some information to report on this, thanks to our "Serious Phaeton Enthusiast" friends in Europe: 
1) The reports of these starting problems coincided with the introduction of winter fuel blends in North America. No W12 starting problems were reported prior to the time that winter fuel was introduced.
2) Samples of fuel taken from Phaetons that were observed to have a starting problem are now under analysis. Our enthusiast friends think that there is a very high probability that the starting problems are directly related to the quality (blending) of the fuel supplied to the Phaeton, and not due to any problem with the Phaeton itself. But, they are taking these reports very seriously and continuing to investigate.
3) The problem has not yet been reported in Europe with W12's, perhaps this might be because European fuel specifications are stricter than North American fuel specifications.
This tends to confirm what we were all guessing at earlier. If anyone who lives in the far south of the USA, where winter fuel is not sold, encounters this problem, please post a note here. So far, the members that have reported this problem are all from the north (IL, WI, Canada).
Michael


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Great update Michael, thanks. The service tech called me today saying they were still waiting for the software upgrade "patch"....
I'll let you know when I have more details. Since the fuel pressure valve replacement the condition has improved now to perhaps only a 33% fail rate. It makes sense about the fuel blend, although still odd that its not more frequently seen in other cars- is the w12 engine so sensitive?








Ed.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (viscount)*

Hi Ed:
I don't think the W12 itself is more sensitive than any other engine, but I do think it is more tightly cowled than most other engines - witness how long it holds residual heat in the wintertime - and that might be contributing to the fuel boiling issue. That's just my own opinion, though.
I switched refiners about a month ago (started buying Shell fuel, rather than Sunoco - not that one is better than the other, just because they use different refineries), and I have not encountered any problems since then. What I am wondering now is if the use of ethanol in fuel might be the cause of the problem? Ethanol is not used in Europe at all, anywhere, and Shell does not use it in their Montreal refinery, which is where the fuel in my region comes from. I think it is commonly used in the US midwest, though.
If there are any Phaeton owners - or even just forum lurkers - out there who are petrochemical engineers, we would really appreciate some expert advice on this subject.
Michael


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## bobschneider (Oct 12, 2004)

*Problems starting*

I've noticed an intermittent problem with my 2004 W12 since it's started getting colder. Sometimes, when I turn the key to start the car, the engine will start up and then immediately die. When I turn the key a second time, nothing happens - it doesn't even try to start. Only after I pull the key completely out of the switch and reinsert it can I start the car again, and then I may have to give it a bit of gas once it catches to keep it going (like on a old carburated car!)
This has happened maybe 4 or 5 times over the last month or so. Anyone have any ideas what could be causing this? I'll get the dealer to take a look at it, but if anyone has any suggestions as to what I should tell him to look at I'd appreciate it.
Thanks!


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: Problems starting (bobschneider)*

Hi, this is directly the result of changes to the winter blend gasoline...It happened to me last winter, and now is happening again with all too much frequency. Your dealership should be aware of it (which one btw?) and VW is as well- I have written about it here actually as well as spoken with PCC a few times. There's supposed to be some sort of software "patch" out there for this, but I haven't seen it yet, and as we speak awaiting a call from Diane at PCC about this very issue. What brand and octane do you use regularly out of curiousity?
Ed.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Problems starting (bobschneider)*

Hi Bob:
You can trust Ed on this one, he is an *expert *on the subject of getting W12's started in regions of the country that use blended fuel in the wintertime. He did his Ph. D dissertation research on it at the beginning of last winter...







I'll see if I can dig up the thread from last year about this topic - we even had help from our friends in Dresden to get this problem solved.
Michael
*Postscript:* _The earlier post referred to above and this new post have since been merged - all the information is here on this thread - note the gap in dates between posts above._


_Modified by PanEuropean at 9:08 PM 12-29-2005_


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## bobschneider (Oct 12, 2004)

*Re: Problems starting (viscount)*

Thanks, Ed. I didn't have this problem with the V8 I had last winter, so I guess it's a W12 specific issue.
I always use BP/Amoco Ultimate (I work for the company - and no, I don't get a discount!), 93 octane, Chicago region blend. My dealer is Autobarn in Evanston, who've sold a lot of Phaetons. I'll soon need an oil change, and will bring this up with them when I do.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Problems starting (bobschneider)*

Hi Bob:
Thanks for mentioning that you always use a specific brand of fuel from a reputable refiner. There was some speculation last winter that perhaps careless adherence to specifications during the refining process, or addition of excessive amounts of alcohol, methanol, or MTBE might be the underlying cause of the problem. I have considerable trust in BP/Amoco's quality control (having visited the production facilities in Kuparuk many times), so, I think we can now rule out fuel quality problems as the cause of the W12 winter headaches.
Could you inquire with the upstream folks and find out what the percentages of alcohol, methanol and/or MTBE in the fuel you are using is, and whether they vary these percentages going into the winter season?
Michael


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: Problems starting (PanEuropean)*

Good question Michael, and thanks Bob for the info. We both bought our cars from the same place, and I use the same gas.....I need to change, as this shouldn't be a specific BP issue w/W12's but its the brand I use most frequently due to convenience...I've more or less ruled out the possibility of BP gas blend being the culprit, but there's only one way to find out!








Apparently there's this magic elixir AKA software patch.. that's what we need to get our hands on...Michael, btw what beand gasoline do you use most frequently?
Ed.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Problems starting (viscount)*


_Quote, originally posted by *viscount* »_...Michael, what blend gasoline do you use most frequently?

Hi Ed:
I don't really pay much attention - I just buy the stuff from whatever station I see first after the 'low fuel' warning light comes on. The formulation is pretty tightly controlled in Canada, there is not much difference (that I am aware of) between brands, so I consider it a fungible commodity, kind of like fast food. The independent retailers buy from one of three refineries, all three of which are owned and operated by majors.
Michael


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Problems starting (viscount)*


_Quote, originally posted by *viscount* »_There's supposed to be some sort of software "patch" out there for this, but I haven't seen it yet

There (ahem) may or may not be an '05 W12 running around this area that may or may not have updated software in the ECMs. 
I have not heard back from the customer yet as to results, but, then again, I wouldn't because I don't know anything about it in the first place...








If any of the above is indeed true, please please please don't go hounding your dealership or the PCC Goddess of your choice to get yours done as well. Once everything's been finalized and is MIL spec, I'm sure the rollout will occur. 
I know it's a pain in the rear because both 24v VR6s I've owned in the last three years have done exactly the same thing. 
Again, to quote Schultz, "I know no*thing* Herr Commandant!"










_Modified by chrisj428 at 9:05 PM 12-9-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Problems starting (viscount)*


_Quote, originally posted by *viscount* »_There's supposed to be some sort of software "patch" out there for this...

I've had some informal discussions with folks about this 'patch' issue, and the story I hear goes more or less like this:
There are no winter-related problems of any kind with W12 engines in most parts of the world - for example, Canada or Europe. But, it is agreed that there are some problems with W12 engines in certain specific regions of the USA that seem to be related to changes that take place in gasoline formulation in the wintertime.
This makes for a very nervous bunch of engineers back in Wolfsburg. They know that they got it right the first time with the W12 engine, however, they recognize that localized problems exist, and these localized problems are due to outside issues (fuel formulation). They want to solve the problem for the folks who live in these areas, but at the same time, they don't want to introduce any new problems that might not be apparent right away.
I understand that VW engineers are studying this as closely as they can, but no 'patch' will be released until the engineers are sure that the patch will solve the localized problem without any unwanted side effects. Also, if such a patch is released, it will only be applied on the request of owners who are encountering these problems - it will not be a fleet-wide change. I think that the engineers want to pin down the exact cause of the problem - meaning, exactly what the heck is different with winter fuel formulation in these areas - before deciding what course of action to take. It might not even end up being a software patch, it might wind up being a recommendation to avoid using fuel that comes from a specific refinery, or to make a change in octane grade, or to use an additive for a few months of the year to correct the regional deficiency in fuel formulation. The dream solution would be to find a way to change operating procedures for the vehicle that solves the problem - for example, would pressing on the gas pedal prior to starting the car solve the problem (that's just for sake of illustration, it's not a factual proposal).
Nothing that I just said is official or represents VW in any way at all. However, I personally think that this approach to things makes sense.
Michael


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Problems starting (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_ Again, to quote Schultz, "I know no*thing* Herr Commanant!"









Chris, you watched way too much TV as a child. I want you on my side for _Trivial Pursuit. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
_
_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_This makes for a very nervous bunch of engineers back in Wolfsburg. They know that they got it right the first time with the W12 engine, however, they recognize that localized problems exist, and these localized problems are due to outside issues (fuel formulation).
I think that the engineers want to pin down the exact cause of the problem - meaning, exactly what the heck is different with winter fuel formulation in these areas - before deciding what course of action to take.

Living on the Kansas Missouri boarder, (Heart of American farm lands, big *METHANOL ACTIVIST,* I can't wait to find out what I'm going to get. I try to use AMOCO/bp as much as possible, but haven't fueled up since just after Thanksgiving. It will be interesting, to see if I have an issue. Will let you all know.








Regards,
Brent


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Problems starting (W126C)*

My guess - and I need to tell you that this is pure, uninformed speculation - is that because the W12 engine is so tightly cowled and well insulated inside the engine compartment of the Phaeton, heat build-up can cause vaporization of some of the fossil fuel substitutes (ethanol, methanol) that are used in parts of the USA. This doesn't cause a problem in summertime because the refineries don't increase the volatility of the fuel blend in the summer. But, when they switch to winter blend fuel with a higher volatility, the problem happens.
From what I have experienced myself, and heard from others, we only encounter winter starting problems under the following set of circumstances:
*1)* Engine has already been fully warmed up.
*2)* Car is parked and engine is turned off.
*3)* Owner attempts to start engine between 5 and 15 minutes later.
Again - this is just a guess on my part, not based on any info I have been given.
Michael


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Problems starting (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_From what I have experienced myself, and heard from others, we only encounter winter starting problems under the following set of circumstances:
*1)* Engine has already been fully warmed up.
*2)* Car is parked and engine is turned off.
*3)* Owner attempts to start engine between 5 and 15 minutes later.
Again - this is just a guess on my part, not based on any info I have been given.
Michael

An update (perhaps, if I, in fact, knew anything official at all...):
I may or may not have feedback that the "experimental" customer is very very happy with the results of the new software and has had no issues since it's installation.
I also may or may not have heard that we're simply waiting for the CD-ROM from Germany with the final version compatible for use with a 5052 to reprogram the ECMs, which should show up by the end of the month -- if, in fact, I knew anything about this at all.








Of course, this is all unofficial and if questioned, once again, I know no*thing*!







<~~ Kinda like the snowman, so I had to add him in.


_Modified by chrisj428 at 11:56 AM 12-13-2005_


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

Between the things Michael may or may not know and Chris may or may not know, I think we are the best un-informed forum on Vortex.
~PC


_Modified by PhaetonChix at 1:09 PM 12-13-2005_


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## speckhead (Dec 13, 2005)

I use Shell Gas in chicagoland. Never had any issues.
Check out this site for best gas around country.
http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (speckhead)*

Yesterday I actually heard some pinging for the first time. I must have gotten some unusual blend of fuel. But even then it only happens when the transmission has shifted into a high gear at fairly low speeds putting the motor in a strain while driving around on slow back streets around my town.


----------



## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: (dcowan699)*

Which grade (octane) of gas are you using?


----------



## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: Problems starting (PanEuropean)*

Michael, this is an entirely accurate and succinct summary of the issue. For the last 3-4 weeks I have been buying Shell instead of BP, and the problem has all but gone away!!







....
Ed


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: hesitant start after running for a while.... (chrisj428)*

Francisco made a really excellent, informative post on another thread that sheds much light onto the problem of W12 engines encountering starting problems in the Chicago area. His original post is at this link: Haven't seen this for quite a while....

_Quote, originally posted by *Itzmann* »_Actually, Chicago's problem is well documented... the EPA's requirement that Chicago use Reformulated Gasoline containg oxygenates that must come from corn. Gasoline in other parts of the country is cheaper because either Congress did not require any oxygenates or the oxygenates can come from any source. However, in Chicago's case, the agricultural lobby hit a home run!
In addition, Chicagoans pays more gasoline taxes than many other people... as much as 32 cents of every dollar goes to the city, county, state, and federal government.
Finally, Chicago's gasoline gets you anywhere from 2 to 3 miles less per gallon than say, Gary, Indiana's gasoline, because Chicago's gas with corn on it contains less energy









"Every gallon of gas sold in Chicago includes a state motor fuel tax, a federal excise tax, a state environment tax, city and county gas taxes, and various sales taxes. The taxes account for ... 32 percent ..."
http://transcripts.cnn.com/200...es.02/
"The greater Chicago area is required by federal law to use a specialized blend called reformulated gasoline, which is more expensive to produce. And, since Chicago is surrounded by areas that mostly use other blends, it is a somewhat isolated market prone to occasional supply disruptions and price spikes."
http://www.cei.org/gencon/019,03927.cfm
"John Cook, director of the petroleum division of the DOE's Energy Information Administration ... pointed at California and the Chicago and Milwaukee areas as primary examples of *gasoline-market islands.* The clean-burning requirements in each of these areas are unique to that individual area, and only a few refineries can produce the specialized products. 
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/gas-price3.htm
"On average, RFG decreases fuel economy by 2-3 miles per gallon because oxygenates have lower energy content than gasoline. There are reports of much higher fuel economy losses for some vehicles. "
http://ncseonline.org/nle/crsr...2.cfm


----------



## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

It is a well known fact that German cars do not like the lighter "corny" gas. I'm sure that is why Chicago area owners are having fuel issues.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PhaetonChix)*

Here is some additional information for W12 owners who live in the Chicago - Milwaukee area, and are affected by the unusual fuel formulation in that region:
Congressional Testimony related to Chicago - Milwaukee Fuel Problems
Energy Information Administration (EIA) analysis of "the proliferation of boutique fuels"
Finally, attached as a PDF is a VW Technical Bulletin (01-06-02 Fuel, Poor Quality) that addresses the same topic. It basically says "if you are having problems due to fuel formulations mandated by your politicians, try buying your fuel elsewhere".
Michael


----------



## dwasill (Oct 15, 2012)

*2004 W12 Phaeton VCDS Diagnosis help...*

I picked up a 2004 W12 a few months ago and everything has been going good except that I’ve been experiencing rough idle and stalling on restart when warm (engine off ~1/2 hour then restarted). I noticed that code 18331 remains persistent through the a reset, would you have any insight on ECU #2 and what the error may mean?

Sunday,30,December,2012,13:14:40:60755
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.4
Data version: 20120807



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 3D - VW Phaeton D1
Scan: 01 02 03 05 06 07 08 09 11 13 15 16 17 18 19 23 27 28 29 2E
34 36 37 38 39 46 47 55 56 57 65 66 68 69 71 75 76 77

VIN: WVWAH63D248008364 Mileage: 85480km/53114miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 07C-906-018-BAP1.lbl
Part No SW: 07C 906 018 C HW: 
Component: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G ª5211 
Coding: 0000173
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 25413074EF0C5530723

4 Faults Found:
17698 - Coolant Temp Sensor at Radiator Outlet (G83) 
P1290 - 002 - Signal too Small - Intermittent
16455 - Sensor for Ambient Air Temperature (G17) 
P0071 - 004 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
18331 - Please Check DTC Memory of ECU Number 2 
P1923 - 008 - 
17499 - Mixture Regulation; Bank 2; Range 1 
P1091 - 002 - Rich Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
Readiness: 0000 0000

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 3D0-927-156.lbl
Part No: 3D0 927 156 N
Component: AG5 01L 6.0 W12 USA 1114 
Coding: 0001102
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 3365DE2C51D83B80EC7

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 3D0-614-517.lbl
Part No: 3D0 614 517 R
Component: ESP 5.7 allrad H33 0043 
Coding: 0008397
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 3169D424ABC409909EB

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 05: Acc/Start Auth. Labels: 3D0-909-13x-05.lbl
Part No SW: 3D0 909 135 M HW: 5WK 470 26
Component: Kessy 6400 
Coding: 0133356
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2F6DD25CBDF01F6088F

Part No: XXXXXXXXXXX 
Component: ELV XXXX

1 Fault Found:
00003 - Control Module 
012 - Electrical Fault in Circuit

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 06: Seat Mem. Pass Labels: 3D0-959-759.lbl
Part No: 3D0 959 759 B
Component: Sitzmemory D1 BF 1520 
Coding: 0000003
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 3561E0345FAC25B0C23

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 07: Control Head Labels: 3D0-035-00x-07.lbl
Part No: 3D0 035 008 Q
Component: ZAB COCKPIT 0223 
Coding: 0500345
Shop #: WSC 91490 999 69319
VCID: 285F3940981E4858495

1 Fault Found:
00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30 
002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC Labels: 3D0-907-040.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 040 J
Component: Climatronic D1 2031 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 25413074EF0C5530723

2 Faults Found:
00716 - Air recirculation Flap Positioning Motor (V113) 
014 - Defective
01274 - Air Flow Flap Positioning Motor (V71) 
014 - Defective

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect. Labels: 3D0-937-049-V1.clb
Part No: 3D0 937 049 G
Component: STG.Bordnetz 5001 
Coding: 0000003
Shop #: WSC 91490 999 84585
VCID: 2E53CF58BAFA1668839

3 Faults Found:
01494 - Bulb for Parking Lamps; Left (M1) 
010 - Open or Short to Plus
01498 - Bulb for Parking Lamps; Right (M3) 
010 - Open or Short to Plus
00907 - Intervention load Management 
000 - - 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 11: Engine II Labels: 07C-906-018-BAP2.lbl
Part No SW: 07C 906 018 C HW: 
Component: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G ª5211 
Coding: 0000173
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 25413074EF0C5530723

2 Faults Found:
16825 - EVAP Emission Control Sys 
P0441 - 002 - Incorrect Flow - Intermittent
16840 - EVAP System 
P0456 - 002 - Very Small Leak Detected - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 3D0-909-601.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 601 D
Component: 0A Airbag 8.4E+ H07 0934 
Coding: 0012353
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 24472D70E436AC3865D

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel Labels: 3D0-953-549.lbl
Part No: 3D0 953 549 E
Component: Lenksäulenmodul 3401 
Coding: 0000232
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2F6DD25CBDF01F6088F

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 3D0-920-xxx-17.lbl
Part No: 3D0 920 881 K
Component: KOMBIINSTRUMENT RB4 0312 
Coding: 0005011
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2E53CF58BAFA1668839

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
Part No: 6N0 909 901 
Component: Gateway KCAN 0101 
Coding: 0000006
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: F0EF9120E04EC098515

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 28: HVAC, Rear Labels: 3D0-919-158.lbl
Part No: 3D0 919 158 F
Component: Klima-Bedienteil D1 0117 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 2E53CF58BAFA1668839

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 29: Left Light Labels: 3D0-909-157.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 157 
Component: EVG GDL+AutoLWR(l) X012 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: E6C3F778D28A1E283B9

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 34: Level Control Labels: 3D0-907-553.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 553 B
Component: LUFTFDR.-CDC- 3C1V0 1101 
Coding: 0015500
Shop #: WSC 90956 444 54532
VCID: 26433778920A5E287B9

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr Labels: 3D0-959-760.lbl
Part No: 3D0 959 760 B
Component: Sitzmemory D1 F 1520 
Coding: 0000004
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2D51C854B7FC6D70BA3

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 37: Navigation Labels: 3D0-919-887.lbl
Part No: 3D0 919 887 A
Component: NAVIGATION 0147 
Coding: 0400000
Shop #: WSC 91490 999 54621
VCID: 326BDB28AEC23288E71

1 Fault Found:
00625 - Vehicle Speed Signal 
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 38: Roof Electronics Labels: 3D0-907-135.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 135 C
Component: Dachmodul 0708 
Coding: 0000015
Shop #: WSC 91490 999 69319
VCID: 23452E6CE138AB001C7

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 39: Right Light Labels: 3D0-909-158.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 158 
Component: EVG GDL+AutoLWR(r) X012 
Coding: 0000003
Shop #: WSC 31414 000 00000
VCID: E7DDFA7CD580072000F

1 Fault Found:
00003 - Control Module 
014 - Defective - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 3D0-959-933.lbl
Part No: 3D0 959 933 E
Component: 6P HSG 3212 
Coding: 0000040
Shop #: WSC 91490 999 179245
VCID: 326BDB28AEC23288E71

Part No: 3D1 959 701 E
Component: Tuersteuergeraet FS 0201

Part No: 3D1 959 702 E
Component: Tuersteuergeraet BF 0104

Part No: 3D0 959 703 E
Component: Tuersteuergeraet HL 0104

Part No: 3D0 959 704 E
Component: Tuersteuergeraet HR 0104

Part No: 3D0 909 610 C
Component: 3L HDSG 2330

Part No: 7L0 907 719 
Component: Neigungssensor 0020

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 47: Sound System Labels: 7Lx-035-4xx-47.lbl
Part No: 3D0 035 466 
Component: 12K-AUDIOVERST 0115 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: DFCDE29C0DD04FE0F8F

1 Fault Found:
00873 - Bass Speaker Rear Right (R17) 
011 - Open Circuit

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 65: Tire Pressure Labels: 3D0-907-273.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 273 C
Component: Reifendruckueberw. 0021 
Coding: 0011224
Shop #: WSC 91490 999 78642
VCID: 26433778920A5E287B9

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 66: Seat, Rear Labels: 3D0-959-860.lbl
Part No: 3D0 959 860 B
Component: Sitzmemory D1 H 1513 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 2E53CF58BAFA1668839

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 68: Wiper Electr. Labels: 3D1-955-119.lbl
Part No: 3D1 955 119 
Component: Front Wiper 2005 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: E6C3F778D28A1E283B9

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 71: Battery Charger Labels: 3D0-915-181.lbl
Part No: 3D0 915 181 D
Component: Batteriemanagement 2800 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 24472D70E436AC3865D

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 75: Telematics Labels: 3D0-035-617.lbl
Part No SW: 3D0 035 617 HW: 3D0 035 617 
Component: Telematik NAR1 0101 
Coding: 0061860
Shop #: WSC 91490 999 00780
VCID: DDB1D89407DC5DF0EA3

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 76: Park Assist Labels: 3D0-919-283.lbl
Part No: 3D0 919 283 C
Component: 03 Einparkhilfe 0807 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 2A5BC34886127A485F1

No fault code found.

End ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sunday,30,December,2012,19:04:37:60755
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.4
Data version: 20120807


Chassis Type: 3D - VW Phaeton D1
Scan: 01 02 03 05 06 07 08 09 11 13 15 16 17 18 19 23 27 28 29 2E
34 36 37 38 39 46 47 55 56 57 65 66 68 69 71 75 76 77

VIN: WVWAH63D248008364 Mileage: 85480km/53114miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 07C-906-018-BAP1.lbl
Part No SW: 07C 906 018 C HW: 
Component: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G ª5211 
Coding: 0000173
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 25413074EF0C5530723

1 Fault Found:
18331 - Please Check DTC Memory of ECU Number 2 
P1923 - 008 - - Intermittent
Readiness: 0010 1001

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 3D0-927-156.lbl
Part No: 3D0 927 156 N
Component: AG5 01L 6.0 W12 USA 1114 
Coding: 0001102
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 3365DE2C51D83B80EC7

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 
VCID: 55A140B4ACEC05B0223
Note: Excessive Comm Errors


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 05: Acc/Start Auth. Labels: 3D0-909-13x-05.lbl
Part No SW: 3D0 909 135 M HW: 5WK 470 26
Component: Kessy 6400 
Coding: 0133356
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2F6DD25CBDF01F6088F

Part No: XXXXXXXXXXX 
Component: ELV XXXX

1 Fault Found:
00003 - Control Module 
012 - Electrical Fault in Circuit

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 06: Seat Mem. Pass Labels: 3D0-959-759.lbl
Part No: 3D0 959 759 B
Component: Sitzmemory D1 BF 1520 
Coding: 0000003
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 3561E0345FAC25B0C23

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 07: Control Head Labels: 3D0-035-00x-07.lbl
Part No: 3D0 035 008 Q
Component: ZAB COCKPIT 0223 
Coding: 0500345
Shop #: WSC 91490 999 69319
VCID: 285F3940981E4858495

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC Labels: 3D0-907-040.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 040 J
Component: Climatronic D1 2031 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 25413074EF0C5530723

2 Faults Found:
00716 - Air recirculation Flap Positioning Motor (V113) 
014 - Defective
01274 - Air Flow Flap Positioning Motor (V71) 
014 - Defective

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect. Labels: 3D0-937-049-V1.clb
Part No: 3D0 937 049 G
Component: STG.Bordnetz 5001 
Coding: 0000003
Shop #: WSC 91490 999 84585
VCID: 2E53CF58BAFA1668839

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 11: Engine II Labels: 07C-906-018-BAP2.lbl
Part No SW: 07C 906 018 C HW: 
Component: D1-6.0L-AG-LEV G ª5211 
Coding: 0000173
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 25413074EF0C5530723

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 3D0-909-601.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 601 D
Component: 0A Airbag 8.4E+ H07 0934 
Coding: 0012353
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 24472D70E436AC3865D

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel Labels: 3D0-953-549.lbl
Part No: 3D0 953 549 E
Component: Lenksäulenmodul 3401 
Coding: 0000232
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2F6DD25CBDF01F6088F

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 3D0-920-xxx-17.lbl
Part No: 3D0 920 881 K
Component: KOMBIINSTRUMENT RB4 0312 
Coding: 0005011
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2E53CF58BAFA1668839

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
Part No: 6N0 909 901 
Component: Gateway KCAN 0101 
Coding: 0000006
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: F0EF9120E04EC098515

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 28: HVAC, Rear Labels: 3D0-919-158.lbl
Part No: 3D0 919 158 F
Component: Klima-Bedienteil D1 0117 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 2E53CF58BAFA1668839

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 29: Left Light Labels: 3D0-909-157.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 157 
Component: EVG GDL+AutoLWR(l) X012 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: E6C3F778D28A1E283B9

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 34: Level Control Labels: 3D0-907-553.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 553 B
Component: LUFTFDR.-CDC- 3C1V0 1101 
Coding: 0015500
Shop #: WSC 90956 444 54532
VCID: 26433778920A5E287B9

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr Labels: 3D0-959-760.lbl
Part No: 3D0 959 760 B
Component: Sitzmemory D1 F 1520 
Coding: 0000004
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2D51C854B7FC6D70BA3

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 37: Navigation Labels: 3D0-919-887.lbl
Part No: 3D0 919 887 A
Component: NAVIGATION 0147 
Coding: 0400000
Shop #: WSC 91490 999 54621
VCID: 326BDB28AEC23288E71

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 38: Roof Electronics Labels: 3D0-907-135.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 135 C
Component: Dachmodul 0708 
Coding: 0000015
Shop #: WSC 91490 999 69319
VCID: 23452E6CE138AB001C7

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 39: Right Light Labels: 3D0-909-158.lbl
Part No: 3D0 909 158 
Component: EVG GDL+AutoLWR(r) X012 
Coding: 0000003
Shop #: WSC 31414 000 00000
VCID: E7DDFA7CD580072000F

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 3D0-959-933.lbl
Part No: 3D0 959 933 E
Component: 6P HSG 3212 
Coding: 0000040
Shop #: WSC 91490 999 179245
VCID: 326BDB28AEC23288E71

Part No: 3D1 959 701 E
Component: Tuersteuergeraet FS 0201

Part No: 3D1 959 702 E
Component: Tuersteuergeraet BF 0104

Part No: 3D0 959 703 E
Component: Tuersteuergeraet HL 0104

Part No: 3D0 959 704 E
Component: Tuersteuergeraet HR 0104

Part No: 3D0 909 610 C
Component: 3L HDSG 2330

Part No: 7L0 907 719 
Component: Neigungssensor 0020

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 47: Sound System Labels: 7Lx-035-4xx-47.lbl
Part No: 3D0 035 466 
Component: 12K-AUDIOVERST 0115 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: DFCDE29C0DD04FE0F8F

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 65: Tire Pressure Labels: 3D0-907-273.lbl
Part No: 3D0 907 273 C
Component: Reifendruckueberw. 0021 
Coding: 0011224
Shop #: WSC 91490 999 78642
VCID: 26433778920A5E287B9

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 66: Seat, Rear Labels: 3D0-959-860.lbl
Part No: 3D0 959 860 B
Component: Sitzmemory D1 H 1513 
Coding: 0000001
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 2E53CF58BAFA1668839

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 68: Wiper Electr. Labels: 3D1-955-119.lbl
Part No: 3D1 955 119 
Component: Front Wiper 2005 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: E6C3F778D28A1E283B9

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 71: Battery Charger Labels: 3D0-915-181.lbl
Part No: 3D0 915 181 D
Component: Batteriemanagement 2800 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 24472D70E436AC3865D

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 75: Telematics Labels: 3D0-035-617.lbl
Part No SW: 3D0 035 617 HW: 3D0 035 617 
Component: Telematik NAR1 0101 
Coding: 0061860
Shop #: WSC 91490 999 00780
VCID: DDB1D89407DC5DF0EA3

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 76: Park Assist Labels: 3D0-919-283.lbl
Part No: 3D0 919 283 C
Component: 03 Einparkhilfe 0807 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 2A5BC34886127A485F1

No fault code found.

End ---------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## dwasill (Oct 15, 2012)

*Additional detail*

I forgot that while troubleshooting the low/rough idle and stall I researched service records that the previous owner kept dating back to 2008. It appears that the coil pack recall service was performed and the spark plugs were replaced in 2010 at ~80K km. I pulled the intake manifold and checked the condition of a few of the spark plugs anyway and the few I pulled looked good to me. 

I noticed in the provided service records that the on multiple scans the dealer noted ECs reporting a rich mixture but it appeared in all cases that the DTCs were reset and nothing specific was ever adjusted or fixed. 

Is there a way to specifically scan ECU Number 2 that's not included in the automatic scan/clear?


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hello: (sorry, I don't know your name)

I don't know where you are located, which makes it difficult to determine whether or not the problem is caused by the fuel you are using in the car.

If you are in the United States - and particularly, if you are around the Chicagoland area, the 'difficult to start when engine warm' problem is most likely caused by an excess of ethanol in the fuel. We (W12 owners) have been aware of this problem with 'winter fuel' in the Southern Illinois area for 8 years. The W12 engine is only designed to accept ethanol concentrations up to 5%. So, the first troubleshooting step you should take is to find out if you can purchase fuel that has 5% or less ethanol. Sometimes, the premium fuels (for example, 94 octane) have little or no ethanol. 

Have a careful read through the first two pages of this existing discussion (Chicago area fuels) that I have appended your post onto, and let us know if you think anything we have previously discovered about fuel might be the cause of your problem.

With respect to your diagnostic scan, here are my general thoughts concerning it:

*1)* You have a number of intermittent faults in the engine controllers (01 and 11). These show up in the first report that you posted, but not in the second report (presumably the second report was the result you got after clearing all the codes). Be aware that with W12 engines, you need to either clear the fault codes twice, or manually clear the fault codes from controller 11 (the slave engine controller) in order to truly get rid of everything.

I don't suspect that any of these intermittent faults are the primary cause of your starting difficulties, though.

*2) *The fault in controller 05 (the access and start controller) is of concern, and it might be related to your starting difficulties, but I would first be sure to rule out problem fuel (Chicago area fuel, fuel with lots of ethanol) before further investigating that controller.

*3)* The recirculating flap motor fault in the HVAC controller (controller 08) might give you problems with the windshield not defogging effectively. The fix for that is to replace the recirculating flap motor assembly. That is a complex job (I just finished having it done in my car). The part costs $220 and it is 3.5 hours of labour (according to the book) to replace it. In my case, I have a very skilled Phaeton tech, but it took him 6.5 hours to re and re the thing, and I paid him for 6.5 hours.

*4)* You have some burned out bulbs. They are cheap and simple to replace.

*5) *The software in your instrument cluster (controller 17) and in your navigation CD reader (controller 37) needs to be updated. There are known problems with the software version that you have - in fact, there is nothing wrong with your vehicle speed-sensor, that problem report will go away when you update the software in those two controllers. See this discussion: TB: Distortion in the Display Unit in the Instrument Cluster, paying special attention to posts #8 and #18 in that discussion.

*6) *For the bass speaker fault, see this discussion: Interior Door Panel Removal -- Bass Speaker Broken Wire Repair.

It would be helpful to the rest of us if you would fill in some profile information, in particular your first name (we try to work on a first-name basis here, it keeps things friendly) and your location. Go to the "My Settings" menu in the upper right of the screen, select "Edit Profile", then fill in your first name, city & country, and vehicle model year and engine type.

Michael


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## dwasill (Oct 15, 2012)

Michael, thanks for the quick response. I'm in the Seattle Area and we're typically ~10% Ethanol so I'll read through the thread and see if it describes many of my problems... Today my car exhibited a few strange issues ending with throwing the MIL. I'm scanning w/ the VCDS beta SW and will post the result below. Thanks for the hint on the 11 controller. It seems that I'm still getting 'rich' warnings, which may be explained up in this thread. Are there any additives that help combat the Ethanol? I do know the guys down at the marina who carries non-ethanol gas but it's ~30% above street prices due to its typical clientele. 

By my postings I'm sure you can tell I'm new to the board so I'll get my profile updated .

Thanks again,

Darrell


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## dwasill (Oct 15, 2012)

Abbreviated scan:

Monday,31,December,2012,17:37:05:60755
VCDS Version: Beta 12.10.1 (x64)
Data version: 20121121


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Chassis Type: 3D - VW Phaeton


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hi Darrell:

I'm not sure what to make of the codes displayed in controller 01 (the engine controller) - by that I mean I don't know if they only reveal problems related to emissions control, or if they reveal problems that might be related to your starting difficulties.

I think that the simplest way of proceeding from here would be to buy a couple of tanks of the non-ethanol fuel, and see if that solves the problem. For sure, that will be less expensive than doing any further investigation into the engine fault codes.

Another alternative might be to do some research and see if there are any refiners in your area who offer premium grade fuel with a lower percentage of ethanol (or no ethanol).

Because you have indicated that the problem only exists when the engine is warm, I am still betting my money on the fuel being the cause of the problem - in other words, fuel is boiling in the fuel rails, and that is what is causing your starting difficulties when the engine is warm.

You could experiment a little bit at home, by leaving the hood of the car open when you park the (fully warmed up) car, then going out to the car half an hour later and seeing if it starts OK. As you have probably noticed, the W12 engine retains a lot of heat for a surprisingly long time after it is shut down. The fuel rails are underneath that big air intake assembly on the top of the engine, and if you leave the hood open, heat will dissipate from the fuel rails pretty quickly. If you can start the engine without problems 30 to 45 minutes after shut-down, after leaving the hood fully open (hopefully in a light breeze), then I think that would confirm that the problem is with the fuel, not the car.

Michael


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## dwasill (Oct 15, 2012)

Michael, while reading through some of the links you provided I'm getting the impression that I need several controller updates (17/37) which begs the question if other controllers are out of date too... I figured I'd hit up the dealer go get everything patched up but is there a comprehensive list anywhere of the latest SW versions for all the other controllers?

After reset yesterday I noticed my MIL popped back on last night on the way back from NYE festivities... Haven't scanned yet but guessing it's the Rich limit exceeded again. I'm off today to track down some Ethanol free gas and buy a trim tool to fix my bass speaker. Have you heard or seen any suggested drop in aftermarket replacements for the rear bass speaker? It looks like the flex lead in the stock drivers likely has a fatigue problem so I could resolder but my guess is that's a temporary fix. 

Did I read right that You're up in Victoria? I actually bought my car out of Surrey a couple of months ago 

Thanks for all the great advice!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hi Darryl:

Based on my quick overview of your diagnostic scan, the only controllers that I think you need to be concerned with are 17 and 37. Those two need critical updates. There is a lot of background information about updates for those two controllers in the Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category) - I think there is also a post in there that summarizes software updates.

You might eventually (sooner or later) need to buy a replacement for the Access and Start Controller to get rid of the fault that is being reported there, unless you are handy with electronics repairs. See the post in the Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category) that discusses repair of MOS FET electronic components in the Access and Start Controller - but be aware that I am not at all certain that those components are the cause of the fault you are seeing.

The 'rich limit' faults you are seeing *might *be caused by problems with the secondary air recirculation system (an emission control system). If this is the case the fix is pretty simple, but it is complex to take the front end of the car apart (remove the bumper cover, etc.) to get access to the air pumps up there.

Best advice I can give you is to spend a fair amount of time (perhaps 10 hours or so) browsing through the discussions in the Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category), and while you are doing it, make kind of a prioritized list of tasks. Certain jobs should logically be done together (i.e. oil & filter change along with investigation of the secondary air pump), because the level of disassembly is much the same for both.

It would be a good idea for you to organize all the tasks before taking the car in for service, otherwise, you could wind up spending a heck of a lot of money on service.

I do live in Victoria (Sidney, to be exact - where the Anacortes ferry docks) but I am not there very often. I dropped my car off at the dealer in Victoria in October for an oil change and service, and have not been back to town to pick it up since then. Hopefully tomorrow (I'm flying back to the West Coast later today).

Michael


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