# Hot on the heels of the CLA, BMW 2-Series Specs Leaked



## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

The 2-Series coupes are slated for a Detroit debut in January. A South African enthusiast site was able to grab an early leak of the specs and post them. Specs look good:

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=898854

Some additional comparisons to the current 1-Series:

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=899014


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## Pretarion (Jun 13, 2003)

That is an interesting competitor for the A3/S3 / CLA45. 

The specs and numbers are intriguing. If it will be debuted in January, that will mean the car will be officially released way after Audi has released the A3. The rumor mill is that Audi will start selling the A3's earlier than expected. That would put the 2 series BMW about a year after the A3's release.


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## dogbolter (Feb 28, 2010)

Pretarion said:


> That is an interesting competitor for the A3/S3 / CLA45.
> 
> The specs and numbers are intriguing. If it will be debuted in January, that will mean the car will be officially released way after Audi has released the A3. The rumor mill is that Audi will start selling the A3's earlier than expected. That would put the 2 series BMW about a year after the A3's release.


 On the Bimmer forums they are talking about a 2 Series release in the US in March


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## kevlartoronto (Jun 10, 2012)

I can't see this as being a competitor for the a3 or cla until the 2 series gran coupe, which has 4 doors, is released in 2015.


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## VWNCC (Jan 12, 2010)

kevlartoronto said:


> I can't see this as being a competitor for the a3 or cla until the 2 series gran coupe, which has 4 doors, is released in 2015.


I'd still consider the 2 series coupe as a competitor to the A3 and CLA solely because of the fact that they are all pretty much the entry yet relatively sporty cars to these brands.

It does not matter whether it is 2dr vs. 4dr, there will be people crosshopping them.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Pretarion said:


> That is an interesting competitor for the A3/S3 / CLA45.
> 
> The specs and numbers are intriguing. If it will be debuted in January, that will mean the car will be officially released way after Audi has released the A3. The rumor mill is that Audi will start selling the A3's earlier than expected. That would put the 2 series BMW about a year after the A3's release.


I recall reading that BMW is aiming to have this on lots by March-April of 2014. The four door will probably be about a year later.


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## caliatenza (Dec 10, 2006)

Pretarion said:


> That is an interesting competitor for the A3/S3 / CLA45.
> 
> The specs and numbers are intriguing. If it will be debuted in January, that will mean the car will be officially released way after Audi has released the A3. The rumor mill is that Audi will start selling the A3's earlier than expected. That would put the 2 series BMW about a year after the A3's release.


how much earlier than expected?


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

VWNCC said:


> I'd still consider the 2 series coupe as a competitor to the A3 and CLA solely because of the fact that they are all pretty much the entry yet relatively sporty cars to these brands.
> 
> It does not matter whether it is 2dr vs. 4dr, there will be people crosshopping them.


Agreed. The vast majority of these buyers don't care about the rear seat, and if this car comes in as speculated - it's going to be a hot little number for sure. Audi's going to have their work cut out for them.


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## LWNY (Jul 30, 2008)

caliatenza said:


> how much earlier than expected?


not early enough, given it was revealed in 2011. This quick to market MQB platform sure is taking a long time.


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## BrutusA3 (Jul 10, 2013)

I think the technical rules governing how cars are structured in terms of year would mean if Audi wants to list their A3 as a 2015 they cannot come any earlier the January 2nd. What I am unclear on is if this counts as delivery or produced vehicle. Thus lets say if by chance they allow build orders on Nov 15th and then you take delivery on Jan 15th does this count as 2015, my thinking it not.

At this point I am thinking if they can set the pricing as well as the online build configurator ready for Dec they can at least help slow down people excited and willing to wait longer instead of jumping to another brand. 

Maybe wishful thinking.
B.


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## Rudy_H (Jul 6, 2012)

hopefully the 235i will put pressure on Audi to get the S3 out the door sooner


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

LWNY said:


> not early enough, given it was revealed in 2011. This quick to market MQB platform sure is taking a long time.


LWNY - 

At the risk of sounding like I am again defending Audi/VW (I am not), MQB is an entirely new platform that requires an entire ecosystem to be built up to support it. The lead time is painful, but once fully implemented we should see more frequent, timely releases. 

Consider ourselves lucky: the wait time for an A3 in the UK right now is close to 6 months. As of yesterday, orders for the sedan are tracking for _MAY 2014_ delivery.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

BrutusA3 said:


> At this point I am thinking if they can set the pricing as well as the online build configurator ready for Dec they can at least help slow down people excited and willing to wait longer instead of jumping to another brand.
> 
> B.


My understanding is that the date of manufacture is more or less irrelevant, it's the actual release from port/release for sale date that matters. So long as Audi releases the A3 on or after January 1, 2014 they can sell it as a 2015 model. 

Based on the backorders I've been reading about in the UK and German forums it would appear they're pretty heavily capacity restricted at the moment. I'd be surprised if the cars are on lots before late February-early March. 

I do expect the order books to open up around the time of the LA Autoshow, however. Most automakers publish the configuration and pricing around twelve weeks prior to the on-sale date.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

BrutusA3 said:


> I think the technical rules governing how cars are structured in terms of year would mean if Audi wants to list their A3 as a 2015 they cannot come any earlier the January 2nd. What I am unclear on is if this counts as delivery or produced vehicle. Thus lets say if by chance they allow build orders on Nov 15th and then you take delivery on Jan 15th does this count as 2015, my thinking it not.
> 
> At this point I am thinking if they can set the pricing as well as the online build configurator ready for Dec they can at least help slow down people excited and willing to wait longer instead of jumping to another brand.
> 
> ...


I was pretty sure the A3 would be coming as a 2014 model. At least that's what I recall hearing a while back. The S3 was the only variant specifically mentioned for 2015, I believe.

Deliveries of the S3 sedan aren't even supposed to start until January for parts of Europe. Whether those will be 2014 cars or 2015 cars, I don't know.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Travis Grundke said:


> Consider ourselves lucky: the wait time for an A3 in the UK right now is close to 6 months. As of yesterday, orders for the sedan are tracking for _MAY 2014_ delivery.


Well that sure doesn't bode well for us getting the S3 before the "later in the year" that's been construed as late summer to early fall. Maybe the May 2014 backorders are taking into account volume production for the North American market, but I suspect the bottleneck will swell further once NA demand becomes known. They can cut NA allocations to make the bottleneck look less pronounced if they can't add capacity, but we'll still know the reality here.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Dan Halen said:


> I was pretty sure the A3 would be coming as a 2014 model. At least that's what I recall hearing a while back. The S3 was the only variant specifically mentioned for 2015, I believe.


Audi's been referring to the A3 as a 2015 model in all of its press materials:
http://audiusanews.com/newsrelease....new-technologically-advanced-2015-audi&mid=16


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Dan Halen said:


> Well that sure doesn't bode well for us getting the S3 before the "later in the year" that's been construed as late summer to early fall. Maybe the May 2014 backorders are taking into account volume production for the North American market, but I suspect the bottleneck will swell further once NA demand becomes known. They can cut NA allocations to make the bottleneck look less pronounced if they can't add capacity, but we'll still know the reality here.


Yeah, the news about order timelines from across the pond isn't great. Audi's recent decision to fast-track their Brazilian factory for A3 production tells me that they know they're capacity constrained and it isn't going to get any better anytime soon. 

I'm curious as to the new Q5 factory in Mexico and what else it will build. Since it's an MLB factory for the Q5, in theory they can build everything from an A4 through the A7 there. My guess is that they'll limit it to Q5 and A4/A5 at least initially, as the A6, 7 and 8 make much more extensive use of aluminum, whose stamping is centralized in Nekarsulum.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Travis Grundke said:


> Audi's been referring to the A3 as a 2015 model in all of its press materials:
> http://audiusanews.com/newsrelease....new-technologically-advanced-2015-audi&mid=16


Hmm, alright.



Travis Grundke said:


> Yeah, the news about order timelines from across the pond isn't great. Audi's recent decision to fast-track their Brazilian factory for A3 production tells me that they know they're capacity constrained and it isn't going to get any better anytime soon.
> 
> I'm curious as to the new Q5 factory in Mexico and what else it will build. Since it's an MLB factory for the Q5, in theory they can build everything from an A4 through the A7 there. My guess is that they'll limit it to Q5 and A4/A5 at least initially, as the A6, 7 and 8 make much more extensive use of aluminum, whose stamping is centralized in Nekarsulum.


I have to figure that they're well aware that they'll need solid and timely capacity for the US market when US production starts in, presumably, six to eight weeks. Not that I'd wish delays on anyone, but I hope they're padding their estimates over there to ensure that a steady flow of US cars is coming at and quickly after launch.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Some new photos of the 2-Series:

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1082257_2015-bmw-2-series-spy-shots


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## ChrisFu (Jun 9, 2012)

Travis Grundke said:


> My guess is that they'll limit it to Q5 and A4/A5 at least initially, as the A6, 7 and 8 make much more extensive use of aluminum, whose stamping is centralized in Nekarsulum.


I would not have purchased my A5 had it been built in Mexico.

A VW yes, but not a $45k Audi.

I do wonder if Audi has considered this.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

ChrisFu said:


> I would not have purchased my A5 had it been built in Mexico.
> 
> A VW yes, but not a $45k Audi.
> 
> I do wonder if Audi has considered this.


This has been a hot topic over in the GTI / Golf VII forums. It bears repeating what I've said there: the issue is not so much the assembly of the vehicles as it is the quality of the localized parts suppliers. Nobody ever saw a MK IV Jetta rust, squeak or have a misaligned panel. What they did have, however, were absolutely dreadful subcomponents that failed with such regularity as to turn owners into homicidal maniacs. A LOT of this problem was not so much due to localization as it was due to the corruption of the then heads of VW's parts procurement who went on to face several indictments and lawsuits. IIRC, his name was Lopez-Alegria, but I could be wrong about that.
Case in point: coil packs. The MK IV coils came primarily from Bosch and were manufactured in Germany and Austria, not Mexico. They were complete junk. 

I don't think that the location matters to 95% of buyers considering that most of Mercedes' and BMW's volume product sold in the US comes from Alabama and North Carolina, not Germany. 

Remember - Audi's real reason for setting up shop in Mexico over the United States is due to trade restrictions and tariffs. The plan is to import Q5s back into Europe, as well as to the US. Since Mexico has no trade restrictions with the EU it is a big savings to build there. Hopefully this changes in the next few years with the ongoing negotiations to loosen our policies with the EU.


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## LWNY (Jul 30, 2008)

Travis Grundke said:


> LWNY -
> 
> At the risk of sounding like I am again defending Audi/VW (I am not), MQB is an entirely new platform that requires an entire ecosystem to be built up to support it. The lead time is painful, but once fully implemented we should see more frequent, timely releases.
> 
> Consider ourselves lucky: the wait time for an A3 in the UK right now is close to 6 months. As of yesterday, orders for the sedan are tracking for _MAY 2014_ delivery.


yeah..word of mouth in the street is that MQB is costing VW big, causing them to miss their profit goal.

Funny how A3 was touted as teh first car using that platform, and we had Gen VII Golf of all variants come out already.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

How well is the Golf VII moving in the US? If my dealer is any indication, they can't keep them on the lots.

o.0


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## ChrisFu (Jun 9, 2012)

Dan Halen said:


> How well is the Golf VII moving in the US? If my dealer is any indication, they can't keep them on the lots.
> 
> o.0


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

ChrisFu said:


>


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## ChrisFu (Jun 9, 2012)

Hey on a golf forum there was a guy claiming to have test driven one!


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

If I zone out enough, I can see a Samoa Orange S3 in my garage. :wave:


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## Rudy_H (Jul 6, 2012)

Dan Halen said:


> How well is the Golf VII moving in the US? If my dealer is any indication, they can't keep them on the lots.
> 
> o.0


Do you know how long I sat at my desk this morning trying to figure out why I haven't seen one yet...I was about to get fired up about how Canada gets screwed on everything...good thing I went for coffee and forgot about it till now...


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## xbr80bx (Feb 2, 2007)

228d xi or xdrive? wtf ever thy're calling it these days?!?!?!


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Rudy_H said:


> Do you know how long I sat at my desk this morning trying to figure out why I haven't seen one yet...I was about to get fired up about how Canada gets screwed on everything...good thing I went for coffee and forgot about it till now...


:laugh: I aim to please.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

xbr80bx said:


> 228d xi or xdrive? wtf ever thy're calling it these days?!?!?!


It could be worse. It could be like their damn X vehicles, which seem to be in competition with Mercedes for the longest stupid badge. A friend's dad had a ML320CDI 4MATIC. They put all that crap on the tailgate.

X1 sDrive28i? X5 xDrive50d? I know what it means, but what's wrong with X128i and X550dx? I guess they want more differentiation from the cars, and they can't exactly start calling the cars A-anything for obvious reasons.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

The M235 was leaked from a dealership presentation today. This car looks great:

http://www.worldcarfans.com/113102264784/bmw-m235i-coupe-leaked-from-dealer-presentation/lowphotos#0


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## Rudy_H (Jul 6, 2012)

Travis Grundke said:


> The M235 was leaked from a dealership presentation today. This car looks great:
> 
> http://www.worldcarfans.com/113102264784/bmw-m235i-coupe-leaked-from-dealer-presentation/lowphotos#0


Hot
If it weren't for the ridiculous front end the 1-series had all these years, I would be driving that today. 

If it weren't for the fact I want to replace for a 5-door, I would definitely get the 235i...definitely would take it over the A3 cabrio / coupe.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Rudy_H said:


> Hot
> If it weren't for the ridiculous front end the 1-series had all these years, I would be driving that today.
> 
> If it weren't for the fact I want to replace for a 5-door, I would definitely get the 235i...definitely would take it over the A3 cabrio / coupe.


Well, aren't you in luck: the 2-series will spawn a 2-series Gran Coupe 5 door late next year, early 2015.

As more information becomes available about this car, the more interesting it looks to me - especially since the US models are already confirmed to be available with manual transmissions.


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## FractureCritical (Nov 24, 2009)

Travis Grundke said:


> Well, aren't you in luck: the 2-series will spawn a 2-series Gran Coupe 5 door late next year, early 2015.
> 
> As more information becomes available about this car, the more interesting it looks to me - especially since the US models are already confirmed to be available with manual transmissions.


thereby shunting the twelve or so of us left who prefer to drive stick and are still Audi fans to another brand.

I love the brand (despite my constant whining and trolling), but have beome increasingly disturbed at the number of dowdy old men and bored hosewives (yes I mispelled that intentionally) driving Audis these days. Even the loaners at the dealership are starting to pick up that retirement home smell...


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## Rudy_H (Jul 6, 2012)

Travis Grundke said:


> Well, aren't you in luck: the 2-series will spawn a 2-series Gran Coupe 5 door late next year, early 2015.
> 
> As more information becomes available about this car, the more interesting it looks to me - especially since the US models are already confirmed to be available with manual transmissions.


That's the problem, constantly waiting. Went to the Lexus dealership today for an IS350 F-Sport, and thankfully it rained and made me to go back another day. The front end is growing on me oddly, smokin' body, butter face, 3,700 lbs...


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## mookieblaylock (Sep 25, 2005)

xbr80bx said:


> 228d xi or xdrive? wtf ever thy're calling it these days?!?!?!


i think the US gets denied both the d and the x and obviously the hatch


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Rudy_H said:


> That's the problem, constantly waiting. Went to the Lexus dealership today for an IS350 F-Sport, and thankfully it rained and made me to go back another day. The front end is growing on me oddly, smokin' body, butter face, 3,700 lbs...


Yikes. Just buy the CPO S4 you've mentioned a couple times if you're *that* desperate to throw stacks. :laugh:


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Well, no doubt Audi wants to steal some of BMW's thunder with their official 2-series rollout schedule and pricing announcement today:

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=903957

That 228 starting at $33 looks like it's going to be a fantastic car.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Travis Grundke said:


> Well, no doubt Audi wants to steal some of BMW's thunder with their official 2-series rollout schedule and pricing announcement today:
> 
> http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=903957
> 
> That 228 starting at $33 looks like it's going to be a fantastic car.


I don't hate it, but I know an M235i equipped to my requirements will be north of what I'm willing to pay, especially considering it takes a hit for being a two-door car. I know they have the sedan coming...


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## caliatenza (Dec 10, 2006)

Dan Halen said:


> I don't hate it, but I know an M235i equipped to my requirements will be north of what I'm willing to pay, especially considering it takes a hit for being a two-door car. I know they have the sedan coming...


i'd rather have the S3...i know Quattro is the best AWD in the business...If Audi gets the pricing right on the S3, its gonna sell like hotcakes!


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## MaX PL (Apr 10, 2006)

is the M235 awd or rwd? 

the news has been all over the place with this, and bimmerposts big reveal is vague about it too.


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## cjmoy (Aug 23, 2000)

FractureCritical said:


> thereby shunting the twelve or so of us left who prefer to drive stick and are still Audi fans to another brand.
> 
> I love the brand (despite my constant whining and trolling), but have beome increasingly disturbed at the number of dowdy old men and bored hosewives (yes I mispelled that intentionally) driving Audis these days. Even the loaners at the dealership are starting to pick up that retirement home smell...


This exactly. I bought my BMW because of Audi's lack of an A4 TDI in the US and I bought my MT Tiguan because of Audi's lack of MT offerings. I love their cars but what they offer in the US pushed me to BMW and VW and it looks like it will stay that way for a while.


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## Chimera (Jul 6, 2002)

caliatenza said:


> i'd rather have the S3...i know Quattro is the best AWD in the business...If Audi gets the pricing right on the S3, its gonna sell like hotcakes!


Just how does the haldex "quattro" setup compare to the torsen setup in their other models?


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## LWNY (Jul 30, 2008)

Chimera said:


> Just how does the haldex "quattro" setup compare to the torsen setup in their other models?


Audi hasn't had torsen diff on their quattro for a while. They moved to a planetary diff with a default torque bias of 40:60, then to a crown differential where rotational difference between the front & rear causes clutchpacks to engage, transferring torque to the the side that could apply the torque to the ground.

Haldex quattro are electronic based, thus clutch lockup is determined by a host of factors such as steering input, accelerator position, abs sensor, lateral sensor, etc. Thus it could engage AWD before there is actual wheel slip. The old haldex units might have had differential pumps that pressurized the clutch based on the differential rotation between the front and rear axle, not allowing AWD fully engaging until there was a little slip of the wheel. But since Gen IV, it has used an electrical pump and Gen V will use eletrical/centrifugal pump. The problem with this haldex based is that the rear wheels are driven as some sort of secondary component of the drivetrain. It's is not directly driven, and the amount of torque applied to the rear axle is limited by the clutchpack torque transfer capability, which I think is something like 1250nm? which might sound alot, but this is amount of torque coming out of the transmission, which has been greatly multiplied. Thus you cannot apply full torque in 1st and 2nd gear when the road you are driving is grippy dry road.

The differential based AWD are just that, turning all the wheels at all time, and when one of the axle/wheel encounters low grip condition, torque reduced on that wheel/axle and the other wheel/axle takes up the additional load, without the wheel slipping. Its not like it is clairvoyant, but just the lesser load being fought back by the wheel/axle causing the gears, which are cut in a certain way, to bind and not be able to turn each other, thus the front/rear driveshaft turn as one. The disadvantange of these units is that your low grip axle/wheel could only be slipping so much before the binding gear feels like 'freewheeling' of the gears thus you lose AWD capability. I think it was something like 20:80, maybe higher in the crown diff. A bit of traction control with the clamping of the brakes usually allows torque to be transferred to the opposing axle. The crown diff with its clutch based transfer of torque to the alternating driveshaft, could have electronic capability where the clutchpack could be locked if sensors detect a need so.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

LWNY said:


> The problem with this haldex based is that the rear wheels are driven as some sort of secondary component of the drivetrain. It's is not directly driven, and the amount of torque applied to the rear axle is limited by the clutchpack torque transfer capability, which I think is something like 1250nm?


That's what this bad boy addresses, no?

http://www.hpamotorsports.com/product_haldex.html


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## jettagreg (Oct 4, 2000)

Maybe someone can explain something to me. Are people comparing the upcoming BMW 2 series to the upcoming Audi A3? Why? The BMW is a 2 door coupe and the Audi is a 4 door sedan. Even when the 3 door A3 hatch is made available, it is still not a 2 door coupe. Am I missing something , here? If i was looking to buy a 2 door coupe I would not not even remotely consider a 3 door hatch or a 4 door sedan. Likewise if i wanted a 4 door sedan, I would not be looking at cars with only 2 doors. That being said. I am very much looking forward to the new A3 sedan.


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## kevlartoronto (Jun 10, 2012)

jettagreg said:


> Maybe someone can explain something to me. Are people comparing the upcoming BMW 2 series to the upcoming Audi A3? Why? The BMW is a 2 door coupe and the Audi is a 4 door sedan. Even when the 3 door A3 hatch is made available, it is still not a 2 door coupe. Am I missing something , here? If i was looking to buy a 2 door coupe I would not not even remotely consider a 3 door hatch or a 4 door sedan. Likewise if i wanted a 4 door sedan, I would not be looking at cars with only 2 doors. That being said. I am very much looking forward to the new A3 sedan.


I agree. With a young family I would never consider a 2 door. Having said that, I won't be buying an automatic either. Wait for the 2 series gran coupe I guess....


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

jettagreg said:


> Maybe someone can explain something to me. Are people comparing the upcoming BMW 2 series to the upcoming Audi A3? Why? The BMW is a 2 door coupe and the Audi is a 4 door sedan. Even when the 3 door A3 hatch is made available, it is still not a 2 door coupe. Am I missing something , here? If i was looking to buy a 2 door coupe I would not not even remotely consider a 3 door hatch or a 4 door sedan. Likewise if i wanted a 4 door sedan, I would not be looking at cars with only 2 doors. That being said. I am very much looking forward to the new A3 sedan.


Mainly because there will be a 4-door version of the 2 series late next year which will be a direct competitor to the A3 and CLA.


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## jettagreg (Oct 4, 2000)

Travis Grundke said:


> Mainly because there will be a 4-door version of the 2 series late next year which will be a direct competitor to the A3 and CLA.


Really? Could you point me in the direction of where you got that information? I would appreciate it. Strange. I always thought even numbered BMW's were 2 door cars. Of course that was messed up with their 1 series.


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## anti suv (Sep 26, 2013)

bimmerpost.com should have any info about a possible gran coupe 2 series.


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## LWNY (Jul 30, 2008)

Dan Halen said:


> That's what this bad boy addresses, no?
> 
> http://www.hpamotorsports.com/product_haldex.html


I am giving you the info based on the race controller already:


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Well alright, then. :laugh:


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

jettagreg said:


> Really? Could you point me in the direction of where you got that information? I would appreciate it. Strange. I always thought even numbered BMW's were 2 door cars. Of course that was messed up with their 1 series.


Check out bimmerpost.com, they've been all over this car for the past year now. The plan is to do a 2-series "gran coupe" like the 6-series. Heck, BMW is working on a 4-series "gran coupe" as well. 

Nice and confusing, huh?


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