# First oil change for a '09 TDI?



## Gramps (Jun 28, 2008)

The owner's manual says 10K mi. for the first (and every other) oil change. OK, I realize this is synth oil we're talking about, with better lifetime than dino oils, but I've spent a lifetime believing that that FIRST oil change, during engine break-in, is pretty dang important in order to get all the entrained teeny tiny metal particles outta there. Maybe this is nonsense...maybe modern oil filters are more than up to the job of catching them li'l buggers. Whatta y'all think: first oil change at, say, 2K instead of 10K (what I'm currently considering)?
One possible answer, it seems to me, is "It couldn't hurt!" (except my wallet, maybe...that 507 spec oil ain't cheap, is it?).


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## shipo (Jan 3, 2006)

*Re: First oil change for a '09 TDI? (Gramps)*

Personally, I'd leave the oil in there for the full 10,000 miles. Why? Several reasons:
1) Modern manufacturing techniques are so precise and all that the bits of metallic machining debris that _used_ to be found in new engines are practically non-existent.
2) As a general rule, engines are partially broken in at the factory these days, and so any "edges" that might get sheared off are both few and far between, and caught during the factory break-in process.
3) Many manufacturers tweak the factory oil to enhance engine break-in. Drain that oil and you lose the special properties of the factory oil.
4) As you said, your oil filter is waaay more than capable of catching any additional break-in debris.


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## CE (Jan 21, 2001)

*Re: First oil change for a '09 TDI? (Gramps)*

Why would you 2nd guess the mfgs suggestions, and during breakin, there is a certain wear that they want, so things set in properly, save your money and do as the book says, 10K is great, less work, more driving. and if you follow the instant oil change places with their 3K BS, i guess they know more about it than the mfg also? If they wanted it changed sooner, it would say so, older VW's where at 5K, my eariler one was 7500...then they went down to 5K, now back out to 10K, it is terrific, drive it, and don't worry, just keep an I on the levels, and top it off with the right stuff if it needs a quart, which is very possible on new engines...as they explain in many service publications.


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## GT17V (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: First oil change for a '09 TDI? (Gramps)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Gramps* »_The owner's manual says 10K mi. for the first (and every other) oil change. OK, I realize this is synth oil we're talking about, with better lifetime than dino oils, but I've spent a lifetime believing that that FIRST oil change, during engine break-in, is pretty dang important in order to get all the entrained teeny tiny metal particles outta there. Maybe this is nonsense...maybe modern oil filters are more than up to the job of catching them li'l buggers. Whatta y'all think: first oil change at, say, 2K instead of 10K (what I'm currently considering)?
One possible answer, it seems to me, is "It couldn't hurt!" (except my wallet, maybe...that 507 spec oil ain't cheap, is it?).

The reason why it's 10k for the first change is because with the new paid maintenance plan that is included, it is less of a financial impact to VW.
Normally, for TDI's, the 1st oil change occurs at 5,000 miles, 2nd at 10,000 miles, and every 10,000 miles thereafter -- this is what I would recommend.
507 oils, which the dealership oil is Long-Life III, some dealerships are stocking them and sellling them for $6 per liter!
The banner advertiser, http://www.polepositionusa.com/ ... has Total Quartz Ineo 504/507 for $10.49, yes, ouch... free shipping for case orders, (shipping oil isn't cheap also).

P.S..... go http://www.tdiclub.com and use those forums--- you'll learn a lot more over there.



_Modified by GT17V at 7:07 AM 9-16-2008_


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## shipo (Jan 3, 2006)

*Re: First oil change for a '09 TDI? (GT17V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GT17V* »_The reason why it's 10k for the first change is because with the new paid maintenance plan that is included, it is less of a financial impact to VW.

Sorry, gotta call you on that one. The 10,000 mile OCI for the latest VW engines was in place well before VW started offering "free" maintenance. In addition, that same charge was levelled at BMW ten years ago when they started offering "free" maintenance and suggested oil changes should be performed every 15,000 miles. We are now ten years down the road since BMW first started that, and I've yet to hear the hue-and-cry from BMW owners who've burned up their engines due to long OCIs.
Said another way, I'm thinking that 10,000 miles is actually a bit conservative, assuming a 502.00 or better oil is being used.


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## GT17V (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: First oil change for a '09 TDI? (shipo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shipo* »_
Sorry, gotta call you on that one. The 10,000 mile OCI for the latest VW engines was in place well before VW started offering "free" maintenance. In addition, that same charge was levelled at BMW ten years ago when they started offering "free" maintenance and suggested oil changes should be performed every 15,000 miles. We are now ten years down the road since BMW first started that, and I've yet to hear the hue-and-cry from BMW owners who've burned up their engines due to long OCIs.
Said another way, I'm thinking that 10,000 miles is actually a bit conservative, assuming a 502.00 or better oil is being used.

Apparently you didn't read my post complete.

_Quote, originally posted by *GT17V* »_
*Normally, for TDI's, the 1st oil change occurs at 5,000 miles, 2nd at 10,000 miles, and every 10,000 miles thereafter* -- this is what I would recommend.

_Modified by GT17V at 7:07 AM 9-16-2008_

And then some:
MKIV's:
2.0L/TDI/VR6: 5,000 miles, 10,000 miles, every 10,000 miles thereafter
1.8T: every 5,000 miles
B5's:
1.8T, & V6: every 5,000 miles
W8: 5,000 miles, 10,000 miles & every 10,000 miles thereafter
MKV until 2009:
All: 5,000 miles, 10,000 miles & every 10,000 miles thereafter
B6 until 2009:
All: 5,000 miles, 10,000 miles, & every 10,000 miles thereafter
Even when VW had their 24 month/24,000 mile maintenance plan (up to 2002), VW paid for the initial 5,000 mile oil change, then 10,000 mile oil change, and the next one(s) depending on the engine.
Also in the context of the 09 TDI.... *VW502.00 is not an acceptable oil*. VWoA calls for 505.01, however technically the engine was designed to be used with 507 oils, not 505.01.


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## shipo (Jan 3, 2006)

*Re: First oil change for a '09 TDI? (GT17V)*

My bad on the TDI thing, I know very well that it requires 505.01 or one of the newer 507.00 oils. That said, I still maintain that the 10,000 mile OCI has nothing to do with the free maintenance.


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## GT17V (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: First oil change for a '09 TDI? (shipo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shipo* »_My bad on the TDI thing, I know very well that it requires 505.01 or one of the newer 507.00 oils. That said, I still maintain that the 10,000 mile OCI has nothing to do with the free maintenance.

...so why for 2009:
2.5L motor: 1st oil change is now at 10,000 miles (instead of 5,000 miles)
2.0T motor (including the new one with the timing chain): 1st oil change is now at 10,000 miles (instead of 5,000 miles)?


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## shipo (Jan 3, 2006)

*Re: First oil change for a '09 TDI? (GT17V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GT17V* »_
...so why for 2009:
2.5L motor: 1st oil change is now at 10,000 miles (instead of 5,000 miles)
2.0T motor (including the new one with the timing chain): 1st oil change is now at 10,000 miles (instead of 5,000 miles)?

Sorry, I still don't understand the point. BMW goes 15,000 miles on the first oil change and Porsche goes 20,000 miles, and they both use oil that is virtually identical to what is required for VWs.
Long story short, the initial 5,000 mile oil change on any car that comes from the factory with the kind of oils that these cars come with, is both archaic and unnecessary.


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## GT17V (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: First oil change for a '09 TDI? (shipo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shipo* »_
Sorry, I still don't understand the point. BMW goes 15,000 miles on the first oil change and Porsche goes 20,000 miles, and they both use oil that is virtually identical to what is required for VWs.
Long story short, the initial 5,000 mile oil change on any car that comes from the factory with the kind of oils that these cars come with, is both archaic and unnecessary.

YOu're changing your argument, because I have already proved you wrong on your previous argument below.

_Quote, originally posted by *shipo* »_
Sorry, gotta call you on that one.* The 10,000 mile OCI for the latest VW engines was in place well before VW started offering "free" maintenance. *

502.00 is not designed for variable service intervals -- end of story for the US front.
That being said... VW in other markets offer variable service intervals in certain configurations, where depending on the driving conditions, etc, the OCI for that interval can easily exceed 10,000 miles--- this is VW503.00. VW504 is suitable for both fixed & flexible service intervals.
Back to TDI's.
505.00 & 505.01 are fixed intervals only.
506.00 & 506.01 are flexible intervals
507 is suitable for both fixed & flexible intervals.


_Modified by GT17V at 10:56 AM 9-16-2008_


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## shipo (Jan 3, 2006)

*Re: First oil change for a '09 TDI? (GT17V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GT17V* »_YOu're changing your argument, because I have already proved you wrong on your previous argument below.

Changed the arugment? Proved me wrong? How so? I initially mistook which thread I was reading and thought we were discussing gasoline fueled engines, hence my "My bad" comment.

_Quote, originally posted by *GT17V* »_502.00 is not designed for variable service intervals -- end of story for the US front.

Uhhh, well, that used to be the case. That said, I've just received a snail-mail letter from VWoA regarding my brother's W8 Passat (which per its Owner's Manual _requires_ 503.01 oil), and in the letter VWoA is now stating that all cars sold in the U.S. that required oil that met the 503.01 standard are now required to use 502.00 or 505.01 oil.

_Quote, originally posted by *GT17V* »_That being said... VW in other markets offer variable service intervals in certain configurations, where depending on the driving conditions, etc, the OCI for that interval can easily exceed 10,000 miles--- this is VW503.00. VW504 is suitable for both fixed & flexible service intervals.

See above.

_Quote, originally posted by *GT17V* »_Back to TDI's.
505.00 & 505.01 are fixed intervals only.
506.00 & 506.01 are flexible intervals
507 is suitable for both fixed & flexible intervals.

Good information. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## GT17V (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: First oil change for a '09 TDI? (shipo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shipo* »_
Uhhh, well, that used to be the case. That said, I've just received a snail-mail letter from VWoA regarding my brother's W8 Passat (which per its Owner's Manual _requires_ 503.01 oil), and in the letter VWoA is now stating that all cars sold in the U.S. that required oil that met the 503.01 standard are now required to use 502.00 or 505.01 oil.


503.01 is also a variable service interval. However, for the W8 Passat in the US, it follows a fixed interval, as I already stated.


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## shipo (Jan 3, 2006)

*Re: First oil change for a '09 TDI? (GT17V)*

Are you suggesting that there were no VW or Audi models sold in the U.S. that had the variable service interval?


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## willafb (Apr 22, 2008)

*Re: First oil change for a '09 TDI? (shipo)*

I just bought a jetta 2.0 and moving to germany and i wonder if they will require the same vw 507 00. Does anyone have experience in germany?


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## GT17V (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: First oil change for a '09 TDI? (shipo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shipo* »_Are you suggesting that there were no VW or Audi models sold in the U.S. that had the variable service interval?

There are no VW or Audi models that HAS the variable service interval. All of them are fixed.
That being said... 504/507 is suitable for both variable and fixed service intervals.
onto the 2.5L motor, you can still get 502.00 oil or use the 504/507 oil.


_Modified by GT17V at 7:07 AM 11-5-2008_


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## franz131 (Apr 13, 2008)

*Re: First oil change for a '09 TDI? (willafb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *willafb* »_I just bought a jetta 2.0 and moving to germany and i wonder if they will require the same vw 507 00. Does anyone have experience in germany?

The standard oil in Germany is 504/507, just be prepared for the price difference.








Anyone else notice the warning on the back of the Castrol 504/507 oil sold at the dealer?
"This oil not to be sold outside of the Americas"
This clearly indicates that the oil is 504/507 chemistry but not formulated for flexible service.
The price difference to a European import bears that out as well.
As already stated:

_Quote, originally posted by *"GT17V"* »_ There are no VW or Audi models that HAS the variable service interval. All of them are fixed.


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## GT17V (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: First oil change for a '09 TDI? (franz131)*


_Quote, originally posted by *franz131* »_
The standard oil in Germany is 504/507, just be prepared for the price difference.








Anyone else notice the warning on the back of the Castrol 504/507 oil sold at the dealer?
"This oil not to be sold outside of the Americas"
*This clearly indicates that the oil is 504/507 chemistry but not formulated for flexible service.*
The price difference to a European import bears that out as well.
As already stated:


VAG has a service bulletins on this issue, in particular, at the introduction of the 504/507 standard, stating that 504/507 oils are suitable for both flexible & fixed intervals.
507 covers all existing TDI oil specifications, including both fixed & flex intervals
504 covers all existing Gasoline specs, including both fixed & flex intervals


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## franz131 (Apr 13, 2008)

*Re: First oil change for a '09 TDI? (GT17V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GT17V* »_
VAG has a service bulletins on this issue, in particular, at the introduction of the 504/507 standard, stating that 504/507 oils are suitable for both flexible & fixed intervals.
507 covers all existing TDI oil specifications, including both fixed & flex intervals
504 covers all existing Gasoline specs, including both fixed & flex intervals

Absolutely correct, however , as you yourself have noted, there are no flexible interval cars sold in N.A.
VW needed to supply the correct oil chemistry but were able to reduce the cost by making a N.A. version for a fixed interval.


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## GT17V (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: First oil change for a '09 TDI? (franz131)*


_Quote, originally posted by *franz131* »_
VW needed to supply the correct oil chemistry but were able to reduce the cost by making a N.A. version for a fixed interval.

Where is your proof? Have you gotten both formulations and done some sort of analysis on it?
In reality, producing, stocking, storing & distributing a "special" US version of 504/507 is actually more expensive.


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## AngryScientist (Jan 7, 2008)

*Re: First oil change for a '09 TDI? (GT17V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GT17V* »_
Where is your proof? Have you gotten both formulations and done some sort of analysis on it?
In reality, producing, stocking, storing & distributing a "special" US version of 504/507 is actually more expensive.

by the same token - where is your proof of this statement.
if this were true, then my gti would have the "euro" headlight switch, i'm not saying you are wrong in this instance, just not necessarily correct.


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## GT17V (Aug 7, 2001)

Go read up on Lean Manufacturing aka Toyota Production System aka the work of W. Edwards Demming, which Toyota perfected.
Here is the crazy part... supposedly VAG is an expert in Lean Manufacturing, but it really doesn't show in how they execute it in their products


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## franz131 (Apr 13, 2008)

*Re: (GT17V)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GT17V* »_
Where is your proof? Have you gotten both formulations and done some sort of analysis on it?
In reality, producing, stocking, storing & distributing a "special" US version of 504/507 is actually more expensive.

The expensive part was getting the 504/507 approval. 
To produce another, lower spec version to a target price when you're guaranteed all the VWOA business, is smart. The increase in sales at the lower price will more than covers the cost of the re-formulation.
The price difference isn't 5-10%, it's more like 30%, check what the other Euro oils sell for. 
Proof is moot, we can't run the flex interval regardless.


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## AngryScientist (Jan 7, 2008)

*Re: (franz131)*


_Quote, originally posted by *franz131* »_
Proof is moot, we can't run the flex interval regardless.


Agreed


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## willafb (Apr 22, 2008)

*Re: (AngryScientist)*

what is variable and fixed service intervals?


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## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

*Re: (willafb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *willafb* »_what is variable and fixed service intervals?

Fixed would be something like "change the oil every 10,000 miles or every year".
Variable would be if there was some indicator in the dash that lit up to ask for maintenance, based on driving conditions (e.g. stop and go driving asks for maintenance in less mileage than highway cruising does).
VWs sold in the US come with fixed service intervals.


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