# New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP



## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

Hello guys
I race a 1986 Golf GTI with a AGG 2.0L 8V with a webber 38/38 carb and a open exaust, a 288 cam with and adjustable sproket, the car is down to the weight limit of 2031 with driver included. I need to find 20 more pounds of torque and at least 12 more HP to get in the fight for the 1st place. A couple Fiat Palios FI are dominating the category







. On a 2.45 KM course I am 3 seconds behind, I know I can improve my driving some but I know I'm underpower compare to the rest







. My last dyno tunned was 115.5HP and 118 # of torque. I hear they are close to 130# of torque.
Rules:
8V, no bigger carb, no less weight.
Any pistons I want as long as they are use in any VW of any engine type of any year but they can not be forged.
I can use any size valves that has been used in the 8V hydraulic head, wich are the biggest ever used??????
No porting the head, yes porting the intake and exaust manifolds.
No turbo or adding anything to the pump gas that they will fill in the track.
I could use FI but can not use any "programable" ECU, but the car has nothing from the electrical harness, I made a new simple one for a carb engine.
Trans all ready the shortest is can go.
I can use any intake and exaust manifold use in any VW ever. But no heather.
All opinion will be greatly apreciated, I will try to start breaking down the engine in 2 weeks after I come up with a plan.








Thanks a lot. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mk2gtilover (Dec 5, 2007)

port the intake and exhaust of course.
what's your compression ratio? are you allowed to deck the head for higher compression? what about a light weight flywheel? and lightened pulleys? 
if you have to use vw exh.mani make sure it's the dual outlet one from a GTI and get dual down pipes from techtonics tuning. 
what size valves are you using now?


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: (mk2gtilover)*

port the intake and exhaust of course. OK
what's your compression ratio? 10 to 1
are you allowed to deck the head for higher compression? YES I'm alowed.








what about a light weight flywheel? 9 pounds all ready.








and lightened pulleys? Will get. 
if you have to use vw exh.mani make sure it's the dual outlet one from a GTI and get dual down pipes from techtonics tuning. OK 
what size valves are you using now? stock, I belive they are 39mm and 33mm








Thanks a lot for your help, I want to plan it all and get parts before taking the engine down. Any suggestions for springs or coilovers???? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## snowfox (Apr 4, 2002)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (rtaule)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_Hello guys
I race a 1986 Golf GTI with a AGG 2.0L 8V with a *webber 38/38 carb *and a open exaust, a 288 cam with and adjustable sproket, the car is down to the weight limit of 2031 with driver included. ...
Rules:
8V, no bigger carb, no less weight.
...
I can use any size valves that has been used* in the 8V hydraulic head, wich are the biggest ever used??????*No porting the head, yes *porting the intake and exaust manifolds.*
No turbo or adding anything to the pump gas that they will fill in the track.
*I could use FI but can not use any "programable" ECU*, but the car has nothing from the electrical harness, I made a new simple one for a carb engine.
...


OK- Let me get this straight. You have a 38/38 carb (DCOE I'm guessing...) on a 2.0L with a 288 cam, etc., and you are at the weight limit.
You say no bigger carb or turbo, but you can use FI. I'm assuming you mean Fuel Injection and not Forced Induction. If you can use Fuel Injection, what are your limits/restrictions besides the non-programmable ECU? If you can use fuel injection, the factory 'big' throttle body will allow you to get more air than the single 2-barrel carb. Your 38/38 carb has 22.68cm^2 of total throttle plate area - of course you will not be able to effectively use all of that because your venturis are smaller than that, reducing the effective intake air flow area. If you can use factory injection with 'big'/late model MkII throttle body that would be a plus. The secondary alone is Ø52mm resulting in 21.24cm^2 by itself. I don't recall the diameter of the primary, but I'm SURE it is more than 1.5cm^2.







For the sake of argument, let's assume the primary is Ø25mm - resulting in an additional 4.91cm^2 of intake area or 26.15cm^2 total. This would be an increase of 15% in intake air area. Also, the throttle body has no ventur1 - these are straight through bores compared to the venturi restricted carb arrangement.
You would obviously need to re-wire your car's harness to get this system going as well as redo your fuel delivery for the higher fuel pressure requirements of injection
As for a ported intake manifold, look up ny-fam here on the 'Tex. He has a boat load of info, tips, and tricks on this topic.
To the best of my knowledge, the largest factory intake valve on the 8V Hydro heads is 40mm. If you can mix-and-match comopnents in the head (assuming you are using a counter-flow head), use the valves from the later model crossflow head. They have a Ø7mm stem vs. the early motors Ø8mm stem. You will also need to use the crossflow's valve guides, keepers, seals, etc., to fit the smaller stem. Use the lifters from the MkIV as they are a touch lighter. If you can swing the money, use titanium retainers, as well - all the usual stuff for lightening the valve train, yes? You only said, "no porting", but there are other things you can do...








Hope that helps...


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## vr2jetta (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: (rtaule)*

The biggest valves vw uses are 40 mm. The solid lifter head uses valves with 7mm stems (hydrolic heads are 8mm stems) so that could help you flow a 'little' more air. You are in for some work trying to squeeze more power from that NA 8v. What about a more aggressive, race specific cam?


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## snowfox (Apr 4, 2002)

*Re: (vr2jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr2jetta* »_ The solid lifter head uses valves with 7mm stems... 

You sure about that?
http://www.germanautoparts.com...234/7
83-84 GTI is the JH - big valve, solid, right? Guides indicate 8mm stems...


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (snowfox)*

Thanks a lot it does help a lot, so I can go up to 40mm intake valves and how about the exaust valves, what the biggest they have come in a VW head?








If I go with fuel injection I would have to use a restrictor of 43mm and I really dont have the knowladge to deal with setting up an electrical harness for it, so I would like to remain with a carb for now.
I'm using a head that both manifolds are on the same side. will shaving the crankshaft for weight reduction help? I allready have a light flywhell (9 pounds)
I will try to find ny-fam to lear more on intake manifolds.
Regards and thanks a lot.


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (rtaule)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_
I can use any size valves that has been used in the 8V hydraulic head, wich are the biggest ever used??????


Does it have to be factory valves or can they be aftermarket... TT sells a 42-35 7mm big valve kit with the titanium retainers..Its the biggest u can put in that head...
Also ny_fam would be the man to talk to so u can sqeeze that extra power u need. He should be able to tell u the optimum setup from the time it enters ur carb to where it comes out the exhaust that u need....Check out his site...alot of great info http://scientificrabbit.com/node/8


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## snowfox (Apr 4, 2002)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (rtaule)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_... and how about the exaust valves, what the biggest they have come in a VW head?










33mm

_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_
If I go with fuel injection I would have to use a restrictor of 43mm ... 


That sucks. Carbs are probably the ticket, then. I'm not very familiar with side-draft carbs - just the old dual Weber IDF's I played with in my air-cooled days. Are yours as 'adjustable' as the IDF's? ex. wide selection of idle jets, main jets, air correction, emulsion tubes, venturis, etc., etc....

_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_
I'm using a head that both manifolds are on the same side. 


That = counterflow.

_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_
I will try to find ny-fam to lear more on intake manifolds.


http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif The scientifc rabbit site mentioned above will be helpful.
Good luck on the power hunt!


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## Cyrus #1 (Sep 29, 2005)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (snowfox)*

What are you running for brakes/wheels/suspension? Try to shave off every bit of unsprung weight that you can. Good brakes can really help as well.


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (Cyrus #1)*

What are you running for brakes = stock, cant improve them by rules. (disc in front and back)
wheels = Enkei light weight 13 pounds each, 7.5 offset, with same tires for everyone, 205/50R/15-4PR Kumho
suspension = still stock with cut springs to lower car, need suggestions here, I can use up to coilovers with no dampening controls.







I think the best option for me in this category/speed would be 600# springs in the front and 500# in the back but what brand/model shock could handle this? would I be able to get short springs to keep the car low. So far it handles pretty good, we made a very good cage that helps a lot.
Thanks a lot for all your help. Best Regards http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (rtaule)*

Have u thought about using a dry sump setup??? If u knife the crank and use a dry sump u might be able to pony up 5-10 hp on that alone...
Contact Issam Abed from wut ive read he's the go to guy...and has kits for sale too..


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (TheMajic86GTI)*

I have to use the original oil pump.








This looks nice where is the site for it so I can learn more about it?
Thanks a lot 
Ricardo


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (rtaule)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_ This looks nice where is the site for it so I can learn more about it?


Look in this thread alot of good info on dry sump systems.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2343043


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (TheMajic86GTI)*

I have to use the original oil pump.








This looks nice where is the site for it so I can learn more about it?
Thanks a lot 
Ricardo


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

Any sugestion on suspensions best for road racing???
How much should I shave of the crankshaft?
Regards


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## vr2jetta (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: (snowfox)*


_Quote, originally posted by *snowfox* »_
You sure about that?


I stand corrected. 
Its the 16v's that are 7mm, along with 2.0 and VR6.


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: (vr2jetta)*

Any ideas on how more power I would get if I fit the head with 40mm intake valves instead of the 39mm stock ones?








how about if I go to 41mm instead of 39mm stocker?








How about if a change the exhaust valves from 33mm to 34mm?








and from 33mm to 35mm?








Remember all this would be with no porting to the head as rules do not allow it.








Thanks a lot.







Regards
Ricardo


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

*Re: (rtaule)*

I would go with the bigger 42 intake 35 exhaust....I looked up ur carb and its rated for 300 cfm which is going to out flow the head even with the bigger valves. Maybe even upgrade ur cam too since u cant port to take full advantage of the bigger valves....cant remember if u have a solid or a hydro head...solid-306, hydro-298


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: (TheMajic86GTI)*

I have a hydro head. Would a good place to get this valves be Techtonics tunning or is there a good place on the East Coast? 
Thanks a lot for the help.















Ricardo


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

*Re: (rtaule)*

Theirs Techtonics and i believe Bertils racing engines sells them too, but not positive. I just got my 42/35 kit from Techtonics and am in the process of installing it..Heres a thread about the TT 298 cam....
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=2


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## vr2jetta (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: (TheMajic86GTI)*

Whoa whoa whoa, 40 mm valves are the biggest VW ever offered in a stock head. 8v heads did not come with 42mm valves so I dont think rules would allow the usage of those, right?
How are your brakes? What size are you running? 10.1" or 9.4"?
I had a thought.....If the tranny you are running has 100mm drive flanges, you could swap to the 90mm flanges and axles to drop rotational weight. Same goes for the brakes, if you can get a good set of pads and rotors to make the 9.4" work, less rotational weight. IIRC they make 9.4"vented and unvented rotors, in that case I would probably stick to the vented.


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: (vr2jetta)*

Wich are the biggest valves used in a 8V mechanical head????
I'm down to 90mm flanges, are there any lightweight 90mm flanges?
I'm not sure about the brakes, I will check on monday, car is loocked at the office.
Thanks a lot for the new ideas.
Best regards


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

*Re: (vr2jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr2jetta* »_Whoa whoa whoa, 40 mm valves are the biggest VW ever offered in a stock head.


They were offered in the stock race heads...didnt u hear???





















http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vr2jetta (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: (rtaule)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_Wich are the biggest valves used in a 8V mechanical head????


The biggest valves used in a stock VW 8v counterflow head are 40mm, but Majic is right, TT offers a killer setup for oversized valves for the 8v head.


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## vr2jetta (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: (vr2jetta)*

What about a eurospec head? Are they ported more aggressively and/or have bigger valves? Would you be allowed to run that, un-modified?
I read your other post too, and if the motor is coming apart I would suggest a good balancing of the rotating assembly. Have someone do the crank and you can do the rest yourself.


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: (vr2jetta)*

Eurospec head?????





























I can use any VW head, do the VW heads made for the European version GTI's came with bigger valves???? 
I can swap any parts in there as long as they were use in a VW production car.
Thanks for all the help. Please keep it coming.
Best Regards


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## vr2jetta (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: (rtaule)*

I am not sure of any of the differences (if any) but worth looking into. I am sure they came on production cars, but european production cars, not american production cars. If the rules do not specify, one could only assume it does not matter


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

That number is low for a properly tuned CIS-E car with that cam. I am in that neighborhood at the wheels, with better torque on a stock cam, no porting, stock components motor.
It still may be smart to consider fuel injection. The plenum manifold may flow all the air you need for this power level. Remember only one cylinder is pulling air at a time through that restrictor.
As I mentioned in the other thread on this subject - how optimized is the motor build? Are you using the largest factory pistons - 1mm overbore? Is the entire bottom end balanced and blueprinted? Crank bearing journals line bored? These are details that do cost at the machine shop, but pay off on the dyno.
I would deck the block to bump the CR, so you retain the squish area in the head's combustion chamber. What is the spec fuel? You will want to stay around 10-10.5 at 93 octane street gas.
You will gain much more in terms of lap times on chassis setup - suspension/brakes/transmission. I suggest focusing there first.
Spring rates you mention are about right. You will need revalved Bilstein Sports, revalved Koni Sports, or race specific shocks to work with those rates. 
If you are allowed, a set of threaded spring perches will be useful to corner balance the car. 
If you are allowed, camber plates will be helpful getting the alignment correct - move them back to increase castor when you install them. If no camber plates are allowed, get 'crash bolts' that allow more aggressive camber adjustment. You will probably find that you need to get in the -3 degree area to get the front tires working right.
There are many opinions on sway bars. Use a big rear one if allowed, or box the beam in to stiffen it. Using solid bushings back there can increase stiffness too. Use no front one if you have no differential. If you have a locked diff, put on a stock GLI front bar (largest stock A2 bar).
Are you allowed a differential? What kind are you running - this is a second / lap or more difference from an open diff.
Are you allowed to change ring and pinion gear? Do some research and see if there is a better option for your track.
One lap race? Multi lap race? Make sure you are using the right pads for your race - the Hawk DTC would be geat for multi lap racing, but probably not for one lap 'solo 1' competition.
You will find some threads on suspension setup in the motorsports forums\amateur motorsports\road racing section of this site, as well as at improvedtouring.com\forums


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (rtaule)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_
wheels = Enkei light weight 13 pounds each, 7.5 offset, with same tires for everyone, 205/50R/15-4PR Kumho


Do they spec the tire size too? Can you run 13s, since the car was sold with them new? Often you can get a much shorter 13" tire, which lowers the car more without sacrificing suspension geometry, and increases to force that the brakes can apply at the road (shorter torque arm from pad to contact patch). A light 13" wheel is 4-5 pounds less than what you have now. A light 13" tire is probably that much less that what you have now.
Food for thought.


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: (chois)*

That number is low for a properly tuned CIS-E car with that cam. I am in that neighborhood at the wheels, with better torque on a stock cam, no porting, stock components motor.
It still may be smart to consider fuel injection. The plenum manifold may flow all the air you need for this power level. Remember only one cylinder is pulling air at a time through that restrictor. 
********I agree with you but I will try to stay with the carb for a while, I really dont know anything about fuel injection. *************************** 
As I mentioned in the other thread on this subject - how optimized is the motor build? Are you using the largest factory pistons - 1mm overbore? Is the entire bottom end balanced and blueprinted? Crank bearing journals line bored? These are details that do cost at the machine shop, but pay off on the dyno. 
**********I can go 1mm overbore. I will do this when I take the engine apart.***********
I would deck the block to bump the CR, so you retain the squish area in the head's combustion chamber. What is the spec fuel? You will want to stay around 10-10.5 at 93 octane street gas.
**********I have to use pump gas so I will remain at 10.5 to 1 CR.*************
You will gain much more in terms of lap times on chassis setup - suspension/brakes/transmission. I suggest focusing there first.
Spring rates you mention are about right. You will need revalved Bilstein Sports, revalved Koni Sports, or race specific shocks to work with those rates. 
*************100% agree, wich of these shocks would be the best value to handle from 500# to 700# area.**********************
If you are allowed, a set of threaded spring perches will be useful to corner balance the car.
**************Yes I'm allowed wich are a good value??*******************
If you are allowed, camber plates will be helpful getting the alignment correct - move them back to increase castor when you install them. If no camber plates are allowed, get 'crash bolts' that allow more aggressive camber adjustment. You will probably find that you need to get in the -3 degree area to get the front tires working right.
**************Yes camber plates in the wish list, any recomendations???
There are many opinions on sway bars. Use a big rear one if allowed, or box the beam in to stiffen it. Using solid bushings back there can increase stiffness too. Use no front one if you have no differential. If you have a locked diff, put on a stock GLI front bar (largest stock A2 bar).
Are you allowed a differential? What kind are you running - this is a second / lap or more difference from an open diff.
Are you allowed to change ring and pinion gear? Do some research and see if there is a better option for your track. 
****************All ready did what was allowed. no more room to play in that area.*****
One lap race? Multi lap race? Make sure you are using the right pads for your race - the Hawk DTC would be geat for multi lap racing, but probably not for one lap 'solo 1' competition. 
*****************Multi lap race, using hawks allready, thanks.*********************
You will find some threads on suspension setup in the motorsports forums\amateur motorsports\road racing section of this site, as well as at improvedtouring.com\forums
******************Thanks a lot chois, I really apreciate the help.******************


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (chois)*

Do they spec the tire size too?
**********************Yes I can only use 14" with 185 /70 /14 tires or 15" with 205 /50 /15 tires, you can see why I selected 15".******************
best regards


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

*Re: (rtaule)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_
It still may be smart to consider fuel injection. The plenum manifold may flow all the air you need for this power level. Remember only one cylinder is pulling air at a time through that restrictor. 
********I agree with you but I will try to stay with the carb for a while, I really dont know anything about fuel injection. *************************** 

I can understand staying with what you know. CIS-E can be made very simple for your application. Like 12 wires simple. You can set it up to have air fuel ratio adjustable with the turn of a knob, and it will run best with fixed timing - so no knock box to worry about. If you decide to go that route, let me know.

_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_As I mentioned in the other thread on this subject - how optimized is the motor build? Are you using the largest factory pistons - 1mm overbore? Is the entire bottom end balanced and blueprinted? Crank bearing journals line bored? These are details that do cost at the machine shop, but pay off on the dyno. 
**********I can go 1mm overbore. I will do this when I take the engine apart.***********

Great. Make sure to take all those little steps along the way, and use good hardware - arp or similar rod bolts, head bolts.

_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_I would deck the block to bump the CR, so you retain the squish area in the head's combustion chamber. What is the spec fuel? You will want to stay around 10-10.5 at 93 octane street gas.
**********I have to use pump gas so I will remain at 10.5 to 1 CR.*************

I might just leave it at 10:1, as a safetly measure (especially if you are investing in the motor like this - same reason I run 100 on a 10.5:1 motor), but measure what it is and get the machining done accordingly. These motors are rarely at factory spec from the factory. May be only 9.5:1 now...

_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_You will gain much more in terms of lap times on chassis setup - suspension/brakes/transmission. I suggest focusing there first.
Spring rates you mention are about right. You will need revalved Bilstein Sports, revalved Koni Sports, or race specific shocks to work with those rates. 
*************100% agree, wich of these shocks would be the best value to handle from 500# to 700# area.**********************

Konis rebuilt by Koni North America are a great performer for the money.
Bilsteins rebuilt by Bilstein are good shocks and have a reputation for being very reliable.
I would recommend which ever you can find better local service/support for. Race shocks are expensive, so value is relative, but I don't think that is where you are wanting to go.

_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_If you are allowed, a set of threaded spring perches will be useful to corner balance the car.
**************Yes I'm allowed wich are a good value??*******************

Ground Control makes a very good product for this.

_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_If you are allowed, camber plates will be helpful getting the alignment correct - move them back to increase castor when you install them. If no camber plates are allowed, get 'crash bolts' that allow more aggressive camber adjustment. You will probably find that you need to get in the -3 degree area to get the front tires working right.
**************Yes camber plates in the wish list, any recomendations???

This one you absolutely want the Ground Control stuff. They are the only ones I have seen that support the load of the car properly. Spherical bearings are not designed for axial loads, yet most camber plates carry the whole weight and impact load of the car this way. GC uses a thrust bearing to carry the load, and the spherical bearing to locate the strut. They also incorporate caster adjustment. Worth the money.

_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_There are many opinions on sway bars. Use a big rear one if allowed, or box the beam in to stiffen it. Using solid bushings back there can increase stiffness too. Use no front one if you have no differential. If you have a locked diff, put on a stock GLI front bar (largest stock A2 bar).
Are you allowed a differential? What kind are you running - this is a second / lap or more difference from an open diff.
Are you allowed to change ring and pinion gear? Do some research and see if there is a better option for your track. 
****************All ready did what was allowed. no more room to play in that area.*****

What is allowed? What did you do?

_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_One lap race? Multi lap race? Make sure you are using the right pads for your race - the Hawk DTC would be geat for multi lap racing, but probably not for one lap 'solo 1' competition. 
*****************Multi lap race, using hawks allready, thanks.*********************

What Hawks? Some of them are not really very good by todays standards. Blues are barely adequate. HT10s are the same. The DTC 60 or DTC70 is much better, but are not made for our 9.4 brakes. We cut our own out of other shapes to use them.

_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_You will find some threads on suspension setup in the motorsports forums\amateur motorsports\road racing section of this site, as well as at improvedtouring.com\forums
******************Thanks a lot chois, I really apreciate the help.******************

This game is enough work when you have some development to follow. I'm just passing on the kind of advice that helped me get my car competitive. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: (chois)*



chois said:


> I can understand staying with what you know. CIS-E can be made very simple for your application. Like 12 wires simple. You can set it up to have air fuel ratio adjustable with the turn of a knob, and it will run best with fixed timing - so no knock box to worry about. If you decide to go that route, let me know.
> *Wao, that sounds interesting. If is possible I would like to know more about this option.*
> 
> 
> ...


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

I will dig up some threads that describe the engine management tonight, also poke around in the CIS technical forum here for some information.
Only one right way to measure CR is to CC the combustion chamber and do the math. There are some how to pages out on the web for this.
Bilsteins would be non adjustable, I would go that route.
That sounds like a short gear for an 8v motor in this power range. I run a 3.94 with the 205/55-14 and 3.67 with the 225/45-13 tires. I can only run the short gear and short tires at our tightest track.


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: (chois)*

Thanks a lot Chois, I will talk with the people from Ground Control to see what they offer. 
Our club rules say that the ECU can not be programable or can not change chips.
I will look into how to meassure CR on the web.
Our track is very tight with only 2 straights, 300 meters and 400 hundred meters in wich is the inly place I can use 5th almost complete.
Best regards
Ricardo


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

No programming or chip change required.
Just adding a potentiometer (adjustable resistor) to the coolant temperature sensor circuit, and a relay, or better yet a simple switch to bring it into/out of the circuit.
Sounds like maybe that track works well with the gearing. I just find that most racers want the 4.xx gears whether they need them or not.


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: (chois)*

Wao Chois you make it sound very easy. I hope to learn fast.
So you think that with a CIS in my 2.0L 8V all stock motor with a hydro head, adjustable sprokect, TT288 cam and advance timing, I could get more than 115.5 HP and 118# of torque on the wheels? How much????
I think that with some carb fine tunning I will be able to get around 120 Hp and probably 122# of torque.
My hydro head has 39mm intake valves, the most I could increase to would be to 40mm in order to remain within the rules, do you think imm increase in the intake valves would be noticeable? 
Thanks a lot for all the help here.






















Best regards


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## vr2jetta (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: (rtaule)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_Wao Chois you make it sound very easy. I hope to learn fast.

Hes probably been doing this a little while, so he has a good grasp on the basics at least. He probably has issues too so dont get too discouraged. Everybody has to start somewhere.


_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_
My hydro head has 39mm intake valves, the most I could increase to would be to 40mm in order to remain within the rules, do you think imm increase in the intake valves would be noticeable? 



I dont think so, but the 1mm increase in valve size, along with the 1mm overbore, with the good machine work and balancing, along with all the other little tips and tricks you have picked up on here so far will fo'sho' make a difference!


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

You are running a 2.0? Yeah you should have some gains there. It is always hard to compare one dyno to anohter, but I think a 5-10whp gain can be had, maybe more.
My 1.8 gained 20whp going from a decent stock long block with good tuning and header, to balanced/blueprinted/1mm over/10.5:1 with good tuning and header.
Unfortunately it looks like I need another 5 or so to be competitive on the long straights, but the handling is working well enough that the lap times are competitive right now.
I am doing some custom header / exhaust development this winter, flow testing several stock heads/intakes/throttle bodies to find the best one and converting to Digifant/megasquirt to see if it is possible to make any gains there, and remove 5 pounds from the right front corner.
The time and money to get the last few hp does go up as you get more developed, but it looks like I need to find them to meet my goals.


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

*Re: (vr2jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr2jetta* »_
Hes probably been doing this a little while, so he has a good grasp on the basics at least. He probably has issues too so dont get too discouraged. Everybody has to start somewhere.


So true. I was fortunate to work with some other racers on their cars for years before building mine, and was able to apply all that they learned over a few decades right out of the box. Yet I still had some issues here and there.


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## vr2jetta (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: (chois)*

Have you seen these?
http://www.scientificrabbit.com/node/26


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## L8 APEKS (Feb 2, 2006)

*Re: (chois)*

This may not be an option, but what about an ABA engine (or just the head) instead? The difference in head design alone might give the few extra ponies he's looking for...


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: (L8 APEKS)*

ABA head flows better that the other 8V hydro heads???????? 
I have to look at the car tomorrow and see which code head I have.
Would the code ABA be on the head itselfs????
I will look tomorrow and let you know. I also have a spare head that has the intake on the front, the head the car has now has the intake and the exhaust on the same side. (Back) Is there one better than the other in terms of flow??? or capacity to produce power/torque??????
Thanks a lot


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## vr2jetta (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: (rtaule)*

The aba head IS the one with the intake on the front.....is called a crossflow head. The head you are running now, with the intake and exhaust ports on the same side (back) is called a counterflow.

If it was my car, I would stick with the counterflow head.


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## L8 APEKS (Feb 2, 2006)

*Re: (rtaule)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_ABA head flows better that the other 8V hydro heads???????? 


Yes indeedy!


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: (L8 APEKS)*

Thanks for the help.








I think i'm ready to think and come up with a plan for my purchases next week.
Best Regards to all that help me. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VWguyBruce (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (rtaule)*

Wow, this post got long! You'll notice that I try to do everything as cheaply as possible since I try to build my cars to roughly a $2000 budget cap for the Grassroots Motorsports Challenge. But, there are so many changes you can make to these cars for very few dollars to make them very competitive. And, as always, YMMV!

_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_brakes = stock, cant improve them by rules. (disc in front and back) 

Your 9.4" brakes should be plenty with the car at the minimum weight. I think I saw the Hawk HPS pads mentioned earlier, I hear lots of good things about them. I like the PBR Metal Master pads for the price and they don't eat up rotors. PBR's are less than half the cost of Hawk and I know they're available in the UK since they're a Aussie company. 
If you are getting brake fade and you haven't plumbed ducts to cool your brakes you should do that also. Cheap and easy. 
Hopefully, you have good rubber lines installed or Teflon/braided lines. Note, you can get the same pedal feel of Teflon/braided lines if you take and put a zip tie ever half inch or so down the length of rubber lines. Works great if you're limited by class rules and you want a nice hard brake pedal. Cheap too!
You can also adjust the proportioning valve to the rear brakes with some patience. I believe there are some write-ups around the web. Essentially, you want the rears to almost lock up under hard braking in a turn. You can adjust them in a big parking lot. Remember, small changes at the valve go a LONG way, tiny changes, test, repeat until you get the rear where you like it.

_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_suspension = 600# springs in the front and 500# in the back but what brand/model shock could handle this? 

Sounds like you have A LOT to gain in your suspension! You will increase your corner speed exponetially if you make some drastic changes to your suspension setup. Dollar for dollar, I would bet money that you will gain more by just making the suspension changes below than spending the same amount of money it will take to increase your HP/Torque to the max. Unless of course you have deep pockets.








I just recently went this route on my $2009 Grassroots Challenge car. I bought the cheapest set of coilover sleeves I could find although if I had the money I would buy Ground Control sleeves, great quality. I have 572# in the front and 450# in the rear of my 86 GLi, as close as I could get to 600/500 within my budget. Most of what I have heard and read recommend more spring in the REAR to make the car turn-in. At the most recent Challenge in October, the pro that drove my car in the autox actually had me disconnect my front sway bar altogether, I'll be removing it altogether. The spring rates are high enough to run with no bars at all, the bar was actually causing the loss of mechanical grip under hard cornering. This may affect your vehicle weight in the end albeit slightly.
I use Bilstein Sport dampers that I bought used for around $200 US. On the front, I cut just above the spring perch weld, remove the spring seat and my coilover sleeve rests on that weld. In the rear, I removed the lower perch and the sleeve rests on the washer that the stock spring perch sits on. You can see how much clearance I gained with the coilover sleeves here: http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/reader-rides/970/ 
You didn't mention your alignment settings and I don't think I saw if you can run camber plates or not. Either way, you can get a great deal of negative camber in the front with adjustments in the factory bits. You can loosen your ball joints and slide them out as far as they will go to get more negative camber. You can also get at least another -1 degree by loosening the bolts at the spindle/knuckle and rotating the top in and the bottom out. If you need to, VW and others sell "crash bolts" to replace the bottom bolt. "Crash bolts" are a smaller diameter bolt that allows for more adjustment in the hole. Normally, these adjustment would allow your tire to contact your spring but if you go with the coilovers you will gain the clearance you need. In the end, you want to get as close to -2.5 degrees of negative camber as possible.
For toe, a good setting is 1/8 inch total toe out. Depending on the track you may even prefer a bit more to further increase your turn-in speed.
The same pro that drove my car is a suspesion engineer by day and didn't feel any changes to the rear were necessary. I do however have -1 degree shims installed with gives me a measured -2.8 degrees in the rear.
Not sure of your class rules for bushings. But, for ride height, you want your control arms to be level with the ground to be most effective. I used a plain old level to get the most accurate setting.







While I had my control arms out during my build, I installed polyurethane bushings in the front of the control arm and R32/Audi TT bushings in the rear. You may also want to seam weld the arms while you're there to strengthen the control arm. The rear will be slightly lower than the front to get the same level of the "control arm" in the rear but it's a race car and it doesn't have to have the perfect rake of a street car.
If you have to run the factory strut tower bushings and your rules allow, the VR6 Corrado pieces are stiffer than the factory MKII parts. Any slop you can eliminate is a gain. I also installed poly urethane bushings at the tops of my rear shocks.
You may or might not have to roll your fender lips or cut the lip to keep from rubbing with your wheel/tire combination once the ride height comes down. I rub just a little in the rear with my 15X7 Rota Slipstreams with 205/50's but I have to run 10mm spacers with my offset.
Although I autox my car for now, the pros I spoke with about my specific suspension recommend the same settings for the track. I'll be hitting the track next season with either Time Trial or NASA HPDE in addition to autox. Both pros I spoke with at length are multi-time national champs with tons of experience so I feel this setup is a good one. You likely find similar setups on the web give or take a few degrees of negative camber.








This setup will transform your car and you will definitely be able to go deeper and corner faster. It's stiff but hell it's a race car right?!?
By the way, have you been to a driving school lately? Also might gain you another second by having a pro ride with you to evaluate your technique. I know I have lots of bad habits to fix next year.








Can you add a deeper spoiler and a splitter to the front of your car to increase downforce at the front??? 
Add a skid plate to make the underside of the front more slippery at speed?
What is your top speed compared to the others in your class???

_Modified by VWguyBruce at 3:36 PM 12-6-2009_


_Modified by VWguyBruce at 9:29 AM 12-7-2009_


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (VWguyBruce)*

Thanks a lot VWguyBruce for all the help and ideas you are giving me here. I really apreciate your help.


VWguyBruce said:


> I just recently went this route on my $2009 Grassroots Challenge car. I bought the cheapest set of coilover sleeves I could find although if I had the money I would buy Ground Control sleeves, great quality. I have 450# in the front and 572# in the rear of my 86 GLi, as close as I could get to 500/600 within my budget. Most of what I have heard and read recommend more spring in the REAR to make the car turn-in. At the most recent Challenge in October, the pro that drove my car in the autox actually had me disconnect my front sway bar altogether, I'll be removing it altogether. The spring rates are high enough to run with no bars at all, the bar was actually causing the loss of mechanical grip under hard cornering. This may affect your vehicle weight in the end albeit slightly.
> *Interesting, I thought we needed more spring in the front to compensate for the front weight of the engine?? Do you run street tires?? I hear that street tires could not handle well spring rates above 400#??*
> *Yes I have the blistein sports on the list and I also plan to get the GC camber plate. My aligments settings are now at 2.7 negative camber in the from and 2.4 negative camber in the back. 1/16 toe out in each front tire.*
> 
> ...


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## VWguyBruce (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (rtaule)*

You're right about the spring rates, I posted it backwards. I was doing multiple things at once while I was posting. I'll correct my post.
I run Falken Azenis RT-616 on my 15" wheels. Nothing weird on the street except over big bumps but that's self explanatory. I also have two sets of 13's, one set with Hoosier autox tires and one set with Toyo Proxes RA1s. Suspension feels the same minus the higher sidewalls on the 13's which I think I prefer.
I have Eurosport camber plates and rear shims. You may want to consider spacers under your camber plates to allow the front struts the full range of travel. It was a cost factor me to run them without. They also have some fancy camber bolts.http://www.eurosportacc.com/ca...s.htm
The aero bits in front will help your top speed too. I've seen some people get pretty creative with plastic garden edging for front spoilers. Sheet aluminum for the splitter and I've also see masonite(thin wood paneling) used as a splitter. You'll see what I mean by looking at pics from the web. Function over fashion in my book.


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## 89getlucky (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (VWguyBruce)*

surpised i haven't seen this thread!?!?!?1
---->on the line of suspension; I've found that bilstein hd shocks with h'r race springs work pretty well.also, i tend to look at durability along with the performance.
Coilover sleeves are a nice route,but how long do you think they'll last..I"ve bought some cheap sleeves and the threads were trashed within a season of use.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
*what do you mean by open exhaust??* 


_Modified by 89getlucky at 9:08 PM 12-7-2009_


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (89getlucky)*

Thansk 89getlucky
I just bought the GC camber plate and the coilover sleeves with springs set up for my car and purpose considering the street tires I have to use in my class.








I have heard that the GC sleeves are made with very good quality, lets hopw they last longer than a seasson.








Best regards http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Ricardo


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (VWguyBruce)*

Thanks a lot.
Aero bits???








Garden edging: Great idea.
Best Regards








Ricardo http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vr2jetta (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (rtaule)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rtaule* »_
I have heard that the GC sleeves are made with very good quality, lets hopw they last longer than a seasson. 


They better! If not you let us know! Are you as light as you can go? Have you cut out all the un-necessary metal in the passenger compartment like the rear seat support? All the little bolts and studs that hold interior panels in place that arent being used? Maybe you can go lighter than allowed then add weight in areas that will help handling.


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## 89getlucky (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (vr2jetta)*

what did you say you were running for an exhaust??


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## VWguyBruce (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (vr2jetta)*

The Ground Control parts will last a good long time. 
In my case, I figure I can buy several cheap sets for the same price of the GC parts, I also need to check my perches after each autox because they loosen up, I may put some set screws in them at some point. I only have to count my purchase for what I run on the car.
Aero...
http://www.specialprojectsms.c...ID=30


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (vr2jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr2jetta* »_
They better! If not you let us know! Are you as light as you can go? Have you cut out all the un-necessary metal in the passenger compartment like the rear seat support? All the little bolts and studs that hold interior panels in place that arent being used? Maybe you can go lighter than allowed then add weight in areas that will help handling.

Thanks, all ready cut all that off, I have a 38 pound weight on the bottom center of the car to complete the minimun wiegt limit. I will like to be able to cut more weight off but is very hard to find any metal that can still be cut off.
Best Regards http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: New rules for next year ready, I need help to find more torque and HP (89getlucky)*


_Quote, originally posted by *89getlucky* »_what did you say you were running for an exhaust??

I have a "heather like" 4 - 2 - 1 to a 2 1/2 inch open exhaust cut off at the center of the car. On my next dyno runs I will take a electri saw to cut off a couple more inches to see if any more gains. Rules say that it has to be longer that the seat position, I stll have a foot or more to go.
Thanks a lot for all the help. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Best Regards


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

My dyno time found that with a 2.5 pipe, running all the way out the back picked up measurable torque over the short pipe and a turn down.
2.5 is too big for these motors IMO. I am doing my testing this winter with 2.25 pipes.


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: (chois)*

Sorry I had a mistake, I have 2" in the conector with the down pipes and from there on I have a 2.25" the rest of the way to the center of the car. Should I fab the conector of 2.25"? will that make an improvement?
Best regards http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Tom A (Oct 20, 2004)

*Re: (rtaule)*

I can't see going back to a CIS derivative giving any meaningful power gains over a carb, assuming it is sized and jetted properly. It may provide better fuel economy, but I doubt you care about that. You will also need to switch to a high pressure fuel system with return line if you don't already have one, and the FI parts weigh a lot more than the single carb you already own.
Do the rules let you go hotter on the cam?


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

No the 2" collector is probably about right. Again it operates much like a plenum manifold - only one cylinder worth of gas is going through there at once. It would be best to transition from 2 to 2.25 with a tapered cone, but what you have sounds more right than what I have right now.
If the carbs are side draft, and have a typical single throttle plate feeding each cylinder, then you have less flow potential than a stock plenum manifold, where the throttle body feeds one cylinder at a time through two throttle plates.


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## Tom A (Oct 20, 2004)

*Re: (chois)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chois* »_If the carbs are side draft, and have a typical single throttle plate feeding each cylinder, then you have less flow potential than a stock plenum manifold, where the throttle body feeds one cylinder at a time through two throttle plates.
That seems counter intuitive.
Doesn't matter though, as the Weber 38/38 is a 2-barrel downdraft, and a fairly large one for a 2L engine (it is seen as an upgrade for 3.8 and 4.2L Jeep engines). A quick google search shows it is 390CFM, which should be more that adequate.
I wouldn't be surprised is the manifold was a restriction though.


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

A plenum manifold can flow more than individual runners. If the carb in question is on a plenum manifold then it comes down to which manfold flows better. At these power levels the throttle body is not nearly a choke point.


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: (chois)*

Sorry I had a mistake, I have 2" in the conector with the down pipes and from there on I have a 2.25" the rest of the way to the center of the car. Should I fab the conector of 2.25"? will that make an improvement?
Best regards http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

*Re: (chois)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chois* »_No the 2" collector is probably about right. Again it operates much like a plenum manifold - only one cylinder worth of gas is going through there at once. It would be best to transition from 2 to 2.25 with a tapered cone, but what you have sounds more right than what I have right now.


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: (chois)*

Thanks Chois. Do you think cutting the exhaust pipe shorter will help? I will go to the dyno tomorrow and may want to try this? The pipe ends in the middle of the car and faces down, no curves or turns. Maybe 6" less will make a diference??
Regards http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

I don't think you are at that point yet. Get the hard parts of the motor where you want them first.
My winter project is testing with headers - 3 different primary sizes, cutting 1 inch off the primary length between each dyno pull to find the sweet spot and the best primary diameter. Next up will be a series of pulls with the optimized header and a long exhaust, and altering the length to find the best length.
It will take 5 or 6 full days on a dyno to do it, and will not possibly gain more than single digit power/torque. It is only worth it after everything else is done right.


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: (chois)*

Thanks a lot Chois, I will follow your advice, I think you are correct.
Any ideas where to get the smallest possible pulley for the crank so I can underdrive the water pump and the alternator?
Regards
Ricardo


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

My first setup was to use the outer pully from a power steering equipped 16v. The only down side is that it does not have a harmonic balncer, but neither did the stock 85-86 8v motors. I had to space the alternator pully a little bit, found a water pump pully with the right offset, and drilled a hole for the alignment pin at the crank pully.
If you have access to a lathe and some aluminum you can make your own without too much trouble.


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: (chois)*

Great news to report:
Dyno yestarday after underdriving the alternator and water pump pulleys and no radiator fan with new instaled air danm. I drove the car some after the pulls on the street and the temperature came down from 190 to 170 and this was with no fan, incredible.

I got 120.7HP and 116Torque at the wheels thats and imporvement of 5HP. For some reason the torque was going up and down on different pulls, I got 119.8 in the first pull and then it came down on all other pulls. I got my A/F ratio at 13.3.
Open track day tomorrow so will take the car and see how it feels in the track, I instaled 2 metal engine mounts. I think there is just not much room left on that stock engine for more power, remember that I only have that 288 TT cam and the 38/38 carb,the rest is stock. I will get new suspension in next month and see what I get from that.








Thanks a lot for all the help I received from you all, hope you all have a great christmas and a very happy new year.








Best regards








Ricardo


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## MKIGTITDI (Aug 25, 2007)

*Re: (rtaule)*

I dont know what you ended up doing for suspension but I had a mk1 that i installed bilstien racing struts up front and hd rears with a set of neuspeed racing springs that handled way better then the coil overs that i currently have in my mk1 scirocco. It might be something to look into for next season if your still looking for more. I had absolutly no body roll and my car was stiff


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## rtaule (May 13, 2009)

*Re: (MKIGTITDI)*

I'm waiting to receive: GC camber plates, GC coil over sleeves with 450# and 375# springs as I have to race with street tires and blistein sport shocks. I hope to ride a holw diferent car after all this is installed.








Thanks a lot for your comment. Best Regards








Here is a link to my last track day. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd4ur3D8Dk0


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