# Brake Upgrade/Warp Rotor Information



## Steveaut (Sep 16, 2010)

My routan is at about 50k miles and is ready for the second set of brakes and rotors; vibration upon braking. In doing research and talking to various mechanics, I believe I have a fairly good grasp of the issue, which everyone is already aware; the brakes are severely undersized for the vehicle. We all know that. This is causing what we believe is warping rotors or is eating up the rotors. I looked at getting drilled, slotted, and higher quality/premium rotors and pads. Based upon my research, I have concluded the following: 

1. Rotors are not actually warping, but rather getting fused with brake pad material causing the rotor to appear or act like they are warped. I think the term "warped rotor" is generally used to describe what feels like a warped rotor or would otherwise cause the same effect as a warped rotor, but is not actually warped. It doesn't really matter what its ultimately called, but the rotor is caused to be out of spec and causes shaking/vibration due to lower quality pads; 

2. Rotors get worn down faster due to poor heat transfer and friction material used in OEM pads; 

3. OEM pads are lower quality causing the above problems, primarily fusion of pad material to the rotor to cause the "warp" effect on the rotors; 

4. A high quality pad will reduce the possibility of material and heat transfer to the rotor which will improve the life cycle of the rotor (that is a pad that dissipates heat better away from the rotor like a metallic type pad not a ceramic); 

5. A high quality semi-metallic, organic or low metallic pad will better extend the life of the rotor than a ceramic pad and will improve braking due to increased friction (debate to rage on); 

6. High carbon rotors MAY help extend rotor life (at a cost) due to better heat tolerance, but still the pad is the heat failure from my understanding; 

7. Drilled rotors reduce rotor surface and stopping power, but MAY improve heat transfer away from the pad, possibly reducing heat failure/transfer of the pad material to the rotor; 

8. Slotted rotors are a better for choice over drilled since they do not cut away as much surface area and do not potentially compromise integrity of the rotor; and 

9. A high quality solid/blank rotor is best for the routan application since it maximized rotor surface contact with the pads for improved performance. 

I know, this is way too long. Basically, I am getting some high carbon blank rotors and high quality semi-metallic brake pads, probably greenstuff types with the intent to improve performance and extend rotor and pad life. Albeit the pads may wear at the same rate that they currently wear and will have dust; increased friction (stopping power) = more dust (visible). Pad life has not been an issue for me, its all about the rotors.


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## DozerCSX (Feb 17, 2013)

Interesting, and alot of what you've stated I came across in researching. I spoke with several knowledgeable sources who also said that it wasn't the rotors actually warping so much as pad buildup. My only problem with that is that if that were the case, then simply turning the rotors would scrape off the buildup, and solve the problem - and virtually everyone listening here will tell you that turning the rotors never fixes the problem in this case. 

Clearly, upgraded pads and rotors will solve this problem cheaply and effectively. Interestingly, it looks to me that the design of the venting actually trumps every other aspect of the problem - if you just look at the factory rotors, you'll see that the vents are very poorly designed, quite narrow, combined with thick discs - most aftermarket rotors (like my BrakePerformance) have clearly superior designs with much greater airflow at the vents. 

You'll read alot on pad materials - my take is that ANY quality pad upgrade, combined with a well-designed rotor, will fix the problem. 

And check it out - there are several other threads here which discuss this very issue - all with interesting inputs and Routan-specific feedback.


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## CDJackson (Feb 28, 2013)

Or just upgrade to the 2012 Routan brakes, which are significantly larger than earlier model years. (I'm not certain whether VW made the switch in 2011 or 2012, but they definitely upgraded brake size).


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## Steveaut (Sep 16, 2010)

*Bought EBC Rotors and Pads*

I looked into buying all of the 2012 parts to upgrade to the bigger rotors and pads. I decided I didn't want to put a lot of money into that with the risk that there are additional features which prohibit or would compound the cost. I decided to go with good quality aftermarket stuff.

I bought the EBC USR Slotted Rotors and the EBC Greenstuff pads for both axles. I will do a complete brake flush as well. Hopefully this will be a big improvement; the cost was rather substantial compared to local stores. I'll update.

Question on the fluid, any recommendations? I understand we must use the DOT 3. I did some limited research and it sounds like if a car maker designed for one spec of brake fluid, it is not advised to switch since it may not be compatible with all components of the fluid system. Any thoughts or recommendations?


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## Ipfreely49 (Jul 20, 2011)

I'm still thinking of going to the larger brakes. Should just be a few parts but yes it is a cost investment that could prove a bad choice... 

As far as brake fluid goes dot 3 is NOT compatible with dot 5
I think dot 3 and 4 are basically the same thing as most bottles list 3&4 on the label.

Dot 5 is its own beast and does not mx with the other stuff it will coagulate and create a lot of problems. 



Steveaut said:


> I looked into buying all of the 2012 parts to upgrade to the bigger rotors and pads. I decided I didn't want to put a lot of money into that with the risk that there are additional features which prohibit or would compound the cost. I decided to go with good quality aftermarket stuff.
> 
> I bought the EBC USR Slotted Rotors and the EBC Greenstuff pads for both axles. I will do a complete brake flush as well. Hopefully this will be a big improvement; the cost was rather substantial compared to local stores. I'll update.
> 
> Question on the fluid, any recommendations? I understand we must use the DOT 3. I did some limited research and it sounds like if a car maker designed for one spec of brake fluid, it is not advised to switch since it may not be compatible with all components of the fluid system. Any thoughts or recommendations?


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## Chedman13 (May 30, 2012)

Adventurous? Jeep SRT8 brakes might bolt on with little modification.


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## paf (Dec 6, 2010)

@Steveaut 

Thanks for the summary -- that pretty much nails down the cause for the brake problems. 

I am at 35K and on my 3rd or 4th (yeah I lost the count by now) set of pads & rotors. Pretty much oil change and a half I get to see the dealership with the same ol' sad song... 

At this time I will take your advice and buy my own parts and have my (super friendly - no sarcasm here!) dealer put them on for me as a "parting shot". 

Will let you know in 8K how the new rotors are doing....


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## outlawtartan (Feb 18, 2010)

Great thread. I just bought a 2010 SE with 24K miles on it and for the most part it is in mint condition. We did notice on the ride home (40 miles) that as we got closer to home we noticed the vibration. It only happened when we hit the brakes hard. When they were applied slowly we didn't notice it. 

But I will follow this thread and be interested in how the upgraded brakes worked We we are ready for a set I will look to the aftermarket as an option.


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## Chedman13 (May 30, 2012)

my VW is replacing all 4 rotors and 4 pads for free due to the TSB out. I'm happy.


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## DozerCSX (Feb 17, 2013)

My only concern with VW replacing the rotors and pads is that you'll have basically the same situation as OEM (they're not going to provide better parts) and you may have the same problem again in two years...

I also looked (briefly) at possible upsized solutions (i.e. use rotors/calipers/brakes from another vehicle or year) but that was way too expensive for my tastes (you're looking at a 4 figure fix for that vs. a 3 figure fix for upgraded same-size rotors & pads)

Plus, getting away from OEM sizing of anything on a car causes potential warranty troubles later, as they can claim geometry changes caused your problem...

BTW do you happen to have that TSB number?


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## Chedman13 (May 30, 2012)

DozerCSX said:


> My only concern with VW replacing the rotors and pads is that you'll have basically the same situation as OEM (they're not going to provide better parts) and you may have the same problem again in two years...
> 
> I also looked (briefly) at possible upsized solutions (i.e. use rotors/calipers/brakes from another vehicle or year) but that was way too expensive for my tastes (you're looking at a 4 figure fix for that vs. a 3 figure fix for upgraded same-size rotors & pads)
> 
> ...


Since this is a wear item, I was happy they replaced them. These new rotors and pads should last until the warranty is up and I will get akebono/ate pads with cyro rotors, probably plain vs slotted.

2012 calipers and rotors are larger, cost isn't too bad if you buy mopar equivalent part number and bring to your local mechanic to install (or do yourself).

I do have the part numbers on my desk somewhere I will find them.

I was told they were the 2012 rotors and pads, but I am doubtful they fit the same caliper.


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## Ipfreely49 (Jul 20, 2011)

Chedman13 said:


> Since this is a wear item, I was happy they replaced them. These new rotors and pads should last until the warranty is up and I will get akebono/ate pads with cyro rotors, probably plain vs slotted.
> 
> 2012 calipers and rotors are larger, cost isn't too bad if you buy mopar equivalent part number and bring to your local mechanic to install (or do yourself).
> 
> ...


There is another brake thread recently that details the swap. You have to replace the calipers and brackets and dust shields in addition to the pads and rotors. Adds about 450$ approx to the cost not including labor. It's an easy DIY no special tools required but the brake bleeding is a pain. I will buy or rent a power brake bleeder next time. For another 60-100$ 

I ultimately decided not too for cost primarily. I also did not want to have the trouble of selling the car and someone else not knowing that they'll have to buy parts for a different year/model and cause problems. 

So far I'm happy with my choice of pads and rotors. It will be a while before I can report long term results though.


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## routan2010se (Jun 17, 2013)

Ipfreely49 said:


> There is another brake thread recently that details the swap. You have to replace the calipers and brackets and dust shields in addition to the pads and rotors. Adds about 450$ approx to the cost not including labor. It's an easy DIY no special tools required but the brake bleeding is a pain. I will buy or rent a power brake bleeder next time. For another 60-100$
> 
> I ultimately decided not too for cost primarily. I also did not want to have the trouble of selling the car and someone else not knowing that they'll have to buy parts for a different year/model and cause problems.
> 
> So far I'm happy with my choice of pads and rotors. It will be a while before I can report long term results though.


Can you link to the other thread? Does it have the mopar part numbers?


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## Chedman13 (May 30, 2012)

I didn't see the thread either.


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## Zambee500 (Jun 23, 2011)

Here's the other thread, which also includes a link over to Dodge forums and some posts by user "frogbox" there: 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5999802-I-m-done-with-these-f-king-brakes!!

I haven't seen where anyone has actually attempted to make the swap to the larger brakes though. Only that all of the part numbers that should be needed to make the swap, as well as some comments that the larger brakes will only clear on the 17" wheels and larger and therefore wouldn't work on the "S" model with the 16" wheels. 

Also, while the OEM parts would run $500-$600 to upgrade to larger front brake system found on the 2012, you can also shave off some of that cost by 'upgrading' further to aftermarket for the pads & rotors. Of course you just have to double or triple-check part numbers to make sure you're getting the parts for larger brakes, as various websites seem to be all over the place on part numbers for 2012.


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## Zambee500 (Jun 23, 2011)

Zambee500 said:


> Here's the other thread, which also includes a link over to Dodge forums and some posts by user "frogbox" there:
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5999802-I-m-done-with-these-f-king-brakes!!


Sorry, that link I posted to was a thread like this one, where it was referencing an earlier thread.

Instead, start here at thread #21: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5880364-My-09-SEL-Premium-brakes


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## Chedman13 (May 30, 2012)

Here are the part numbers (VW):

Description:
Replaced Front pads and rotors according to technical bulletin #46-12-01 V#USM

2 of 7B0-615-301-C Brake Disc
1 of 7B0-698-151-F Brake Lining

Description:
Found rear pads slided frozen causing pads to wear out, removed pads, cleaned slides, replaced pads and rotors V#USM
2 of 7B0-615-601-B Brake Disc
1 of 7B0-698-451-E Brake Lining

Again, I have a 2011 Routan.

I see tirerack removed a lot of options on rotors, they used to have Brembo Crossdrilled rotors and also some high carbon and blank frozen.


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## Chedman13 (May 30, 2012)

Thanks -- I'll do this once the warrant is up. $500 + labor, should be under a grand.

The new rotors are much bigger and also have a 2 piston front setup vs 1 piston. I plan on keeping this for a while so this is nice OEM upgrade.

What's nice too, I know since Artem has the Durango wheels that they still clear at full pad thickness:
Here is the list of parts that I think is needed for the upgrade:

Part Part number Price Qty Total

Pads 68093323AB $136 1 $136
Rotors 04779712AA $96 2 $192
Caliper (L) 68144161AA $100 1 $100
Caliper ® 68144160AA $100 1 $100
Carrier 68159578AA $31 2 $62
Spring Kit 68003705AA $16 1 $16
Dust shield (L) 04779907AA $5 1 $5
Dust shield ® 04779906AA $5 1 $5


Grand total = $616

Info source: Mopar Overstock

EDIT: A quick Google search using the listed part numbers was able to find cheaper prices than the ones listed above. You may also be able to get aftermarket pads & rotors as well to reduce the costs even more. The calipers & carriers would likely be dealer only items. I added all the above items to my shopping cart at www.factorymoparparts.com and the total came to $506 for OEM parts:



DISCLAIMER!!!: This info is provided based on an internet search and has not been verified on a vehicle. DO NOT assume these parts will work on your Journey.


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## Steveaut (Sep 16, 2010)

I can tell you that after having my EBC slotted rotors and greenstuff pads on for several months, I am very happy with the upgrade. Enough so, that when my Jetta finally needs replacements, I will mostly put these on that vehicle as well. I considered the upgrade to 2012 sized rotors and pads, but did not feel comfortable taking the chance of overlooking something, incurring additional costs, and not achieving an acceptable replacement. The setup I have now bites better than I could have hoped for. Time will tell if they last.


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## Chedman13 (May 30, 2012)

Any squeal on the pads at all? Cold pads squeal?


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## Steveaut (Sep 16, 2010)

They have never squealed. When I first installed, they would have a minor grind to them; I assume removing the black coating from the surface. The coating rubbed off fast and they seemed to bed in around 2000 miles. Meaning they have operated consistently since that time. No cold noise at all. I have noticed they need to warm up briefly before they really bite. I would say about a half mile or so and they are at maximum performance. The performance is rather remarkable. I would not have imagined. I don't have a lot of miles yet. A big part of the decision to do it again will rest on the rotors lasting at least 50k; I would hope they would go 100k with pad changes. As for the pads, if they will go 30k of more, then I would consider this a win for my needs. Better stopping power = safety for the family. Longer lasting = money and time saved. My jetta is 110k miles and I will put them on that car if they OEM ever wear out.


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## Ipfreely49 (Jul 20, 2011)

Steveaut said:


> They have never squealed. When I first installed, they would have a minor grind to them; I assume removing the black coating from the surface. The coating rubbed off fast and they seemed to bed in around 2000 miles. Meaning they have operated consistently since that time. No cold noise at all. I have noticed they need to warm up briefly before they really bite. I would say about a half mile or so and they are at maximum performance. The performance is rather remarkable. I would not have imagined. I don't have a lot of miles yet. A big part of the decision to do it again will rest on the rotors lasting at least 50k; I would hope they would go 100k with pad changes. As for the pads, if they will go 30k of more, then I would consider this a win for my needs. Better stopping power = safety for the family. Longer lasting = money and time saved. My jetta is 110k miles and I will put them on that car if they OEM ever wear out.


I too am very happy with the brakeperformace.com drilled and slotted rotors and EBC Greenstuff pads. They are working very well and no complaints. The slotted ones do hum under hard braking but they aren't very noticeable We had to do an emergency stop coming back from the coast and they worked very well, much better than stock.


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## routan2010se (Jun 17, 2013)

Any long term updates?


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