# Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's Maximum Torque Brake?



## mdt (Nov 22, 2001)

Guys, I am getting so frustrated with having to replace my pads AND disks after taking my car on the track that I am again thinking about getting rid of my car.
It is an absolute peach to drive, but I cannot afford to replace the disks every time I go on the race. I don't want to have to change pads either. I planned to do it this weekend, but my mechanic said "don't worry about it for the first session." By the end of the first session, the disks were already stuffed.
My problem is this. I want better brakes WITHOUT going to 17 inch wheels, which I fear will slow me down.
I would contemplate a set up that would go behind 16 inch wheels but even then I will need to go for new wheels which is an expense I can ill afford.
So, I'm thinking about trying these: Delhi's Maximum Torque Brake.
Does anyone know of anyone else that has tried these?
I've asked for the price from Delphi. I will post the cost when I hear from them.
Cheers,
Matthew








High-Performance Brakes
As vehicles increase in weight and performance, conventional braking systems and wheel sizes are often forced to grow larger to compensate. But Delphi's new maximum torque brake uses twin-disc technology to allow the right size and the right benefits for each unique vehicle. By incorporating twin floating discs and a single piston, Delphi's revolutionary maximum torque brake helps solve many of the challenges facing today's braking engineers. 
It Takes Two
In traditional disc brake systems, a single disc is attached to the hub, with the brake pads "floating." With the new Delphi maximum torque brake system, it is the two discs that float on the outside diameter of the hub. A hydraulically actuated piston applies braking force, with pads operating on the outside and inside faces of each disc—providing four friction surfaces at each wheel. Therefore, Delphi's maximum torque brake can provide up to 1.7 times the torque output of a conventional single-disc system of the same diameter—or it can provide similar torque from a reduced diameter.
"This marks the first significant change in base braking technology since the first volume application of disc brakes more than 50 years ago," said Dr. Jean Botti, chief technologist at Delphi's Dynamics, Propulsion, and Thermal Innovation Center, which is leading the global development of twin-disc technologies. "This new design provides engineers with the flexibility to blend the many benefits and precisely match the vehicle requirements."
Keeping Things Cool
Heat control is one of the biggest challenges for brake engineers. In answer, the twin-disc design provides four cooling surfaces, without the need for vanes or cooling channels. This substantially reduces thermal stress on the brake, fluid, and hub-mounted components and helps eliminate brake fade, disc warping, and lateral run-out. This improved thermal management provides engineers with many options for enhancing other aspects of the braking system.
Flexible…by Design
The high specific torque capability and substantial improvements in thermal management can lead to reduced weight and enhanced packaging flexibility.
By greatly increasing opportunities to optimize the combination of disc size, pedal travel, vacuum booster size, and friction material, the maximum torque brake allows the feel, cost, and performance of the system to be precisely matched to market requirements.
For example, with four pad surfaces, the brake requires approximately half of the apply pressure of a conventional disc brake. This advantage could be used to:

Significantly downsize the booster—helping reduce weight by up to 2.2 pounds (1kg) and freeing up more premium engine compartment space 
Reduce the pedal effort and travel 
Reduce disc diameter by up to 1 inch (25mm)—allowing smaller, lower-cost wheels; higher-aspect-ratio tires that are important for off-road vehicles; and a significant reduction in unsprung weight 
Shorten stopping distances in the unlikely event of a loss of vacuum assist (a requirement that can be increasingly challenging to meet using conventional, highly boosted systems)
Quiet…Braking in Progress
The maximum torque brake provides excellent noise, vibration, and harshness (NVH) performance due to its superior thermal management and its minimal generation of disc thickness variation, which is typically caused when discs wear unevenly. Because noise-related warranty claims are a common consumer issue, improved NVH performance helps save money and improve customer satisfaction.
Advanced Braking on Board
In a typical high-performance SUV application, Delphi's testing indicates that the maximum torque brake could:

Remove the need for multiple brake system specifications 
Help reduce the maximum operating temperature by more than 212˚F (100˚C) 
Help improve NVH performance 
Offer reduced pedal travel by up to 1 inch (25mm), due to the reduced volume of fluid required for actuation 
Offer booster downsizing by approximately 1.6 inches (40mm) 
Help provide a total vehicle weight savings of as much as 15.4 pounds (7kg), depending on system specifications and the level of integration
The new braking system has been tested in 20 vehicles that have covered more than 930,000 miles (1.5 million kilometers). This testing has helped validate that the system will continue to perform to specification in any terrain and usage pattern throughout a vehicle's life. Many perspectives have been considered as part of Delphi's advanced development process—from the reliability of the floating mechanism that compensates for pad wear…to the lean manufacturing processes that help provide competitiveness, quality, and reliability from vehicle launch.
Computer Modeling
To help vehicle manufacturers implement the maximum torque brake, Delphi has also developed a suite of computer-based analysis programs that model a range of extremely vigorous whole-vehicle tests. This allows a designer to quickly optimize the combination of benefits achievable with the maximum torque brake.
Coming to a Vehicle Near You
"The Delphi maximum torque brake could be in production by 2006," said Daniel Warrell, business line executive for brake systems and modules. "It can be supplied as a separate product, or it can be integrated with complete corner modules and supplied using the latest supply-in-line-sequence techniques." The maximum torque brake can also be integrated with other systems from Delphi's portfolio of electronically controlled brake systems, including the TRAXXAR™ Vehicle Stability Enhancement System.
"The maximum torque brake delivers an incredible range of benefits for both vehicle manufacturers and vehicle owners," said Warrell. "With this brake, we have a production-ready product that will allow Delphi's customers to introduce a truly revolutionary solution for vehicle braking."


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## 20valveDriver (May 30, 2003)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's Maximum Torque Brake? (mdt)*

Something tells me that you'll be willing to upgrade wheels once you hear the price on those...
-Tom


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## mdt (Nov 22, 2001)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi ... (20valveDriver)*


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## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's Maximum Torque Brake? (mdt)*

I think the first question you should ask yourself is what pads and what fluid are you using on your set up. If your using stock pads w/ stock fluid, and just keep replacing that everytime they incinerate on the track, thats the problem. Let us know what pads, what fluid, and what rotors your using now and we can help you.


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## mdt (Nov 22, 2001)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (Banditt007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Banditt007* »_I think the first question you should ask yourself is what pads and what fluid are you using on your set up. If your using stock pads w/ stock fluid, and just keep replacing that everytime they incinerate on the track, thats the problem. Let us know what pads, what fluid, and what rotors your using now and we can help you.

Fluid is not a problem. I've been using some hipo racing fluid for some considerable time now. I don't mind paying extra for it, and it is just as good on the road as on the track.
As for pads, I've tried all sorts, EBC Green disappeared on me scoring the disks, EBC black are road pads and no good for the track and EBC reds literally disintegrated on me again scoring the disks. The only pads I have had any success with are Hawk Blues, but they are so hard that I can't drive to the track with them on as they score the disks again.
I really need something that need will wear well under pressure, but that won't rip the crap out of the disks on the way to the track and back.


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (mdt)*

Try some Porterfield R4S pads.
Make some brake ducts
Run DOT race tires, kumho, BFG etcc
Stop abusing the brakes at the track. Remember you are under braking for a small percentage of each lap. A 10% decrease in braking time equates to only a .1o or two on the track.
Brake early, get the car setup for the corner well, and accelerate.


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## r03 (Nov 18, 2003)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_Try some Porterfield R4S pads.
Make some brake ducts
Run DOT race tires, kumho, BFG etcc
Stop abusing the brakes at the track. Remember you are under braking for a small percentage of each lap. A 10% decrease in braking time equates to only a .1o or two on the track.
Brake early, get the car setup for the corner well, and accelerate.

the ducting is a good idea. what's happening to your rotors? are they cracking? they are a wear item, but they shouldn't be 1 and done. either way, ducting will keep the temps down and reduce the overall strain on the rotors since there will be less thermal expansion.
as far as brake pads, it's no surprise that the EBC's suck on the track, it depends on how hard you're using the brakes, but the porterfield's are also a good idea. Also, think about upgrading to a race pad, like the cobalt friction spec VR's and only use them at the track. If brake temps are getting hot enough to toast performance pads, you're going to have to call in big guns, and run a dedicated race pad. Keep in mind that you'll be switching these out for daily driving since most race caliber pads are squeaky as hell, have bad cold bite characteristics, and the dust will destroy the finish on your wheels if they come into contact with water, but...they'll work on the track.
getting better tires will just exacerbate overheating brakes, since the overall grip is higher and it'll take more to reach threshold with them. 
but yeah, def try ducting the brakes, b/c that might solve your whole problem right there. After that, think about the $$$$$ parts. Also, as much as i am a fan of smaller diameter wheels, from what i've seen it's not a huge deal in terms of time so the upgrade to 17" wheels prob won't make too much impact. there are def bigger fish to fry.


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (r03)*


_Quote, originally posted by *r03* »_
.
getting better tires will just exacerbate overheating brakes, since the overall grip is higher and it'll take more to reach threshold with them. 
.

Actually, while it may seem that better tires would make the brake issue worse, it improves it quite a bit.
The sticky tires allow reduce braking time in 2 ways
1. The increased grip allows you to brake harder, but for a reduced period of time.
2. The increased grip allows much higher cornering speeds= you don't have to slow down nearly as much.
Counter-intuitive I know, but I also know from experience that it's true.


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## r03 (Nov 18, 2003)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_Actually, while it may seem that better tires would make the brake issue worse, it improves it quite a bit.
The sticky tires allow reduce braking time in 2 ways
1. The increased grip allows you to brake harder, but for a reduced period of time.
2. The increased grip allows much higher cornering speeds= you don't have to slow down nearly as much.
Counter-intuitive I know, but I also know from experience that it's true.

i guess that's a reasonable way to think about it. I was stuck in newtonian land


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## mdt (Nov 22, 2001)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (r03)*

Go easy on my brakes?!







Yes Mum.








With the Porterfield pads, do I have to change them over for the road? I would prefer something I can drive around on if I have to. Though, I guess what you're saying is don't be a lazy ass if you're going to complain about your brakes, and you're probably right.
Where can I buy brake ducts from, any suggestions? Something off the shelf would be good.
As for disks, they don't crack, they just get worn when I go through my pads.
Thanks for the tips guys.
Guess I might be on the lookout for some second hand 17s. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## r03 (Nov 18, 2003)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (mdt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mdt* »_Go easy on my brakes?!







Yes Mum.








With the Porterfield pads, do I have to change them over for the road? I would prefer something I can drive around on if I have to. Though, I guess what you're saying is don't be a lazy ass if you're going to complain about your brakes, and you're probably right.
Where can I buy brake ducts from, any suggestions? Something off the shelf would be good.
As for disks, they don't crack, they just get worn when I go through my pads.
Thanks for the tips guys.
Guess I might be on the lookout for some second hand 17s. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

most guys just make their own brake ducts, with the help of home depot. Find a way to run 2 high temp flexible tubing from the front of the car, and get it to the center of the rotor. I'm not sure what the knuckles of a VW look like, but on a honda, the idea is to find a way to get moving air to the center of the rotor, where the vents begin, so that the cool air will move through the vents. The dust shield may or may not be a problem, so you'll have to get creative. Fastening technique consists of zipties, and some home made mounts. It's kinda getto fab, and if you can weld it'd be a much cleaner install, but there are a lot of SCCA club racers runnin on good ol tubin n ziptie ducts.
on the daily drivable but better than EBC at the track pads, it's hard to say. Ambient temps have a lot to do with whether the pads catch fire or die, since my cobalt friction GT-S (a daily drivable hi perf pad) were fine on a 70 degree autumn day at streets of willow, but wimpered for mercy on a 98 degree summer day at the same track. 
brake pad manufacturers i trust:
cobalt friction (unfortunately no VW fitments)
Carbotech - (www.carbotecheng.com) the XP8 is prob what you're looking for, or the panther plus
Hawk - the Hawk HP+ might be right up your alley.
Porterfield (http://www.porterfield-brakes.com/pads.html) the R4-s is also a good choice.


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## JoeVeeDubber (Mar 15, 2002)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (mdt)*

Wow, can't say I have ever seen that Delphi setup before, looks sort of trick, but I don't think it will do much better than a 4 piston or more setup on a single disc.
Back on topic, are you using stock OEM rotors? OEM rotors are known to be of a softer metal than say Brembo aftermarket rotors. If you want to keep your stock sizing and improve your braking I would recommend getting some Brembo slotted or plain rotors and using some Porterfield R4S pads. The R4S is a street/autox pad, it isn't really designed for tracking all out, but it can handle it, they recommend the R4 pad for that application, which is a race pad. Also Porterfield pads are way easy on rotors since they are carbon/kevlar compound. As for the worrying about the larger wheels, if you are using stock 16s, they're are a lot of 17inch wheel options that are lighter than factory 16s, not too mention you can run a wider width rim and support a wider tire, which is a big plus in tracking your car. If you want a good 4 piston setup that can stick with 16 inch rims I would look into ECS's Stage 2v1. I think it utilizes a 12.3 rotor with a Porsche Boxter 4 piston monobloc caliper. The increase in brake torque from a 4 pistion setup is amazing. They start at 1095 for black calipers, and 1149 for red/yellow/silver. Here's a link: http://www.ecstuning.com/stage...e%202
Anyways, good luck with whatever you decide on doing.


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## r03 (Nov 18, 2003)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (JoeVeeDubber)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JoeVeeDubber* »_As for the worrying about the larger wheels, if you are using stock 16s, they're are a lot of 17inch wheel options that are lighter than factory 16s, not too mention you can run a wider width rim and support a wider tire, which is a big plus in tracking your car.

actually, the lighter weight of some 17's is usually negated by the increased radius and moment of inertia of the 17's depending on how much lighter they are. it'd help in the unspring weight dept though.
more important than rim diameter though, is rim width. Running the right tire on the right rim will pay many more dividends than having a lightweight 17. For instance, people have had very good experiences with running 205/50/15 azenis on 15x8 wheels. since the azenis are so wide already, they aren't stretched very much at all, and the contact patch is monster...
anyway, that's probably a whole 'nother thread...


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## mdt (Nov 22, 2001)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (r03)*


_Quote, originally posted by *r03* »_
actually, the lighter weight of some 17's is usually negated by the increased radius and moment of inertia of the 17's depending on how much lighter they are. it'd help in the unspring weight dept though.
more important than rim diameter though, is rim width. Running the right tire on the right rim will pay many more dividends than having a lightweight 17. For instance, people have had very good experiences with running 205/50/15 azenis on 15x8 wheels. since the azenis are so wide already, they aren't stretched very much at all, and the contact patch is monster...
anyway, that's probably a whole 'nother thread...

Thanks guys, this is really helpful. I've looked at those brake kits before and I agree, it is probably the best kit for my needs. I have two concerns though. First that I will need new wheels as I am currently running the factory BBS 15s. Second, it says you can use them with 16s, but I have never been able to find anyone who has been able to say that this kit works with "x" 16 inch wheels. Even ECS wouldn't give me the brand of a 16 inch wheel that would work with this kit. Which pushes me back in to the 17 inch wheel problem and the increased diameter that I am scared of using.


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## mdt (Nov 22, 2001)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (mdt)*

Here's the car and wheels:


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## JoeVeeDubber (Mar 15, 2002)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (mdt)*

Ah, a MK3 VR...I have a friend who autox's and track's a MK3 VR. He uses OEM rotors I believe with Ferodo DS series pads. I forgot about the OEM upgrade that fits under 16s, the 12.3inch TT upgrade, I know that is available for your car. If you want to stay with the stock setup, like I posted earlier, brembo rotors and either Ferodo DS pads or Porterfield's. The Ferodos will dust more than the Porterfields.


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## r03 (Nov 18, 2003)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (mdt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mdt* »_
Thanks guys, this is really helpful. I've looked at those brake kits before and I agree, it is probably the best kit for my needs. I have two concerns though. First that I will need new wheels as I am currently running the factory BBS 15s. Second, it says you can use them with 16s, but I have never been able to find anyone who has been able to say that this kit works with "x" 16 inch wheels. Even ECS wouldn't give me the brand of a 16 inch wheel that would work with this kit. Which pushes me back in to the 17 inch wheel problem and the increased diameter that I am scared of using.

it depends on each wheel and takes a lot of careful measuring to be sure that the kit will work with 16's, but like i said before, try the cheaper alternatives before the $1000 alternative








brake ducting will cost you a cool $12.00 and a couple of hours under the car.


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## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (r03)*

THe ferrodo pads that were mentioned would be the DS2500's you can get from raceshopper.com They are a ultra high performance street pad that you can use on the track, these, and the carbotech panther + are pretty much as radical you can go that you can use for dual duty.


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (mdt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mdt* »_Go easy on my brakes?!







Yes Mum.








With the Porterfield pads, do I have to change them over for the road? I would prefer something I can drive around on if I have to. Though, I guess what you're saying is don't be a lazy ass if you're going to complain about your brakes, and you're probably right.
Where can I buy brake ducts from, any suggestions? Something off the shelf would be good.
As for disks, they don't crack, they just get worn when I go through my pads.
Thanks for the tips guys.
Guess I might be on the lookout for some second hand 17s. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

The R4S's are the street compund. Seriously..going crazy on the brakes while on the track doesn't get you much speed. Just brake a bit earlier.
Also-your car looks way too low in the front. Fixing the suspension will allow you to get around the corner faster-less braking required.

_Modified by bobqzzi at 11:11 PM 10-6-2004_


_Modified by bobqzzi at 11:12 PM 10-6-2004_


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## bengone1 (Jun 17, 2003)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (bobqzzi)*

if your car is a 94 you should have 11" 22mm thick rotors (they suck for the weight you have) with crap calipers. you could try audi 5000TQ dual piston calipers with some better pads or try stepping up to 96 and up 11.3x25mm rotors carriers and calipers. easy to find used. or go for the TT/ 20th AE 12.3" i've had both. baked the 11.3s (abuse) but can only get the 12.3s hot.


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## mdt (Nov 22, 2001)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (bobqzzi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bobqzzi* »_Also-your car looks way too low in the front. Fixing the suspension will allow you to get around the corner faster-less braking required.

I believe that is because of the load in the corner. The car has Koni coilovers and is corner-weighted to compensate for the increased weight on the left-front of the car. If you look closely the rear wheel is nearly off the ground. I can quite often lift the rear in hard corners like that.


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## mdt (Nov 22, 2001)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (bengone1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bengone1* »_if your car is a 94 you should have 11" 22mm thick rotors (they suck for the weight you have) with crap calipers. you could try audi 5000TQ dual piston calipers with some better pads or try stepping up to 96 and up 11.3x25mm rotors carriers and calipers. easy to find used. or go for the TT/ 20th AE 12.3" i've had both. baked the 11.3s (abuse) but can only get the 12.3s hot.

I came very close to getting the TT calipers but was warned off on the basis of their weight.
With your 12.3s have you used them on the track?
What size wheels have you got around them?


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## JCB (Aug 12, 1999)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (mdt)*

Matt,
Are you using 11" rotors? I tried a few combinations (lines, pads rotors, fluids) and never got them to work without brake fade during 20 minute sessions.
I think I mentioned this once before...I switched to the 11.3" OEM caliper from (I think it was) a 99 and have not had brake fade since. I use stainless lines, ATE fluid, and Ferodo DS2500 pads. I flush once a season.
I'll be a the track this Friday. Same ole set up.
Rember we were chatting about a roll bar? Send me your email and I'll send you some photos!


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## mdt (Nov 22, 2001)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (JCB)*

Really? Crikey, that's great news.
I'll start looking straight away.
What sort of discs, stockers?



_Modified by mdt at 11:45 AM 2-1-2005_


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## bengone1 (Jun 17, 2003)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (mdt)*

Never "tracked" my car. SCCA auto-xs only. but i get stupid in some hilly areas the downhills of which really tax brakes. i faded out 11" x-drilled with mintex pads, SS lines, ATE blue, on my 87 Rocco. and that is a lighter car than a mk III. the rotors just don't have the mass. the 11.3" are quite a bit bigger. the 12.3s are ridiculous and i want porsche boxster calipers to boot. nothing like overkill


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## mdt (Nov 22, 2001)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (JCB)*

John,
How many sessions can you get out of one set of pads? My problem has been that I chew through them. I guess that's because the pads have been the wrong compound.
I have been in touch with ECS and have asked them if they can supply me with a 280 to 288 upgrade but using Ferodo DS2500 pads or a close equivalent.
I'm curious to see whether they can do it, and what their idea of a close equivalent will be.
What is your view, Hawk HPS? Porterfield R4S pads?
Anyway, thanks again for the feedback everyone, I'm now hopeful again, which I needed. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 



_Modified by mdt at 10:51 AM 10-13-2004_


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## mdt (Nov 22, 2001)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's ... (mdt)*

Guys, this is something out of left field.
I've just spoken with a friend of mine. He says that he knows where I can get a set of 312mm brakes from and a cheap set of 16s that will go around them. This has got to be an improvement for me hasn't it?
I understand that this single piston caliper from the TT with the 288mm pads.
I think the brakes are off an RSI beetle and the wheels are off a bora (V5 16inch (Casellets) Alloy Rims) with Yokohama AVS ES100 225.50R16s on them.
Surely, I just apply the same principles, of getting the Ferodo pads and SS brake lines etc? That way I will not have to import anything and I should be able to get a complete set of wheels and tyres for the same cost as the 280-288mm upgrade.
What do you think?


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## hi_racing (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's Maximum Torque Brake? (mdt)*

I've been very happy with Zimmerman 11" drilled rotors, Mintex Red Box pads, Motul fluid, brake ducts and Hoosier DOT Road Race tires. This setup has survived a season of Porsche club time trials and 6 20-minute sessions at Hallett in Oklahoma. All I did for maintainence was bleed the brakes before every session. No muss, no fuss, no fade. I was setting competitive times in the instructor's run group. Other cars on track were 300ZX twin turbos, Z06's, etc. Never got passed. Passed a few.
Front pads lasted half a season; front rotors a whole season -- double that for the rears.
Good luck!



_Modified by hi_racing at 5:58 PM 10-13-2004_


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## M this 1! (May 17, 2000)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's M ... (hi_racing)*

yes, i'd say go to the bigger brakes and 16" wheels. you'll need to chuck the tires if they're indeed 225 50 16 because they'll suck and rub on everything under there.

205 50 15 is what your car was built for, 23.07" diameter
225 50 16 is a 24.9" diameter. 
even if the width wouldn't rub on both your front/rear shocks AND front/rear fenders, acceleration would suck as would everything else.


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## mdt (Nov 22, 2001)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's M ... (M this 1!)*

Thanks for that info. It's very helpful. Timely too, as I was thinking that the tyres would be of real benefit for me.
Does anyone know what the width of these Bora wheels are? Are they 6.5 or 7.5?


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## mdt (Nov 22, 2001)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's M ... (mdt)*

Don, thanks for that. But I'm not willing to risk another 11 inch set of disks. Four is enough for me. Glad to hear you're doing well though. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## JCB (Aug 12, 1999)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's M ... (mdt)*

Not sure how long the new set up will last. Tomorrow will be my second time with current set up. Visual inspection looked great.
My problem was brake fade. Premature wear on rotors and pads were never the problem for me.
I was thinking about your situation. What works for me may not be the best solution for you. Track conditions may be different... high speed, low speed with many turns, ......all tracks are differnt and cause different wear. Also, you have more motor work than I so you may be pushing higher speeds.
Current Front:
OEM 11.3" caliper
OEM slotted rotor
SS lines
Ate fluid
Ferodo DS2500
Current rear:
OEM caliper
Brembo slotted rotor
SS lines
Ferodo DS2000 - not sure but I have to check receipts again.

When the Ferodo's were first installed I noticed braking on the street needed to be increased. Steet driving simply does not get them to the temperatures you see on the track and consequently they are not as effective.


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## mdt (Nov 22, 2001)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's M ... (JCB)*

I went out to dinner with the lads from the Audi club tonight and a couple of knowledgeable blokes convinced me that I should be looking at brake ducts before anything else. It seems that my wear might be the result of pad failure through heat build up. So cooling appears to be the way to go.
Now where have I heard that before?








I've booked my car in for the workshop next week and it's going to be assessed for brake ducting. 
Hopefully, they will be able to do it and do it reasonably cheaply. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## JCB (Aug 12, 1999)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's M ... (mdt)*

Good luck on the ducts.
I check into that route and noticed you have too.
Seams as though the ducts are all show for the bumper and no go.
Let us know how it turns out.
John


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## JCB (Aug 12, 1999)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's M ... (JCB)*

Oh, 
I read a few years ago in EC that bumping from the 11" rotor to the 11.3" rotor increases sweep pad area 25% or 33%. Not quite sure of the exact % but would like to know the number if anyone has that copy of EC.


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## M this 1! (May 17, 2000)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's M ... (JCB)*

this might help.............totally home made!


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## transient_analysis (Jan 28, 2003)

Thats a nutty, yet awesome idea.. I like the use of a vacuume attachment.
do you really notice a difference at the track??


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## mdt (Nov 22, 2001)

*Re: Improving brakes on a VR6 without going to bigger wheels: Delphi's M ... (M this 1!)*

Yes it does help. Thanks.
Okay, here's the plan:
I'm just about to get some new 288 caliper and caliper carriers; Brembo rotors, DS2500 pads or Hawk HPS pads (importantly, is there any difference between the two?); ss brake lines for the new set up and then I'm getting some ducts fitted.
That way, if I need to upgrade later on, I can use the calipers and caliper carriers.
Please let me know if you think I should be doing anything differently.


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