# P2188 - System too Rich at Idle



## staulkor (May 21, 2007)

I have been getting these codes for the past few weeks. I get quite a few throughout the week, all soft codes. However, every Tuesday night for the past 3 weeks my CEL pops on and this is what it shows:

_Quote »_Tuesday,13,October,2009,21:14:26:04256
VCDS Version: Release 908.0
Address 01: Engine Labels: 06F-907-115-AXX.LBL
Control Module Part Number: 1K0 907 115 H HW: 8P0 907 115 B
Component and/or Version: 2.0l R4/4V TFSI 0040
Software Coding: 0403010A1C070160
Work Shop Code: WSC 78897 155 403174
1 Fault Found:
008584 - Bank 1; System too Rich at Idle 
P2188 - 008 - Implausible Signal - MIL ON
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 11101000
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 10
Mileage: 80535 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 11:42:42
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 767 /min
Load: 24.7 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 87.0°C
Temperature: 21.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
Voltage: 14.351 V

Readiness: 0000 0000

I can't find much information about the code on vortex and there is no entry on ross-tech's wiki.
Car runs fine. It blows a quite bit of black smoke from the RS4 injectors, but nothing different from day one of the injectors.


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## MetalSiren (Nov 4, 2008)

I've encountered that on my MK5 GTI recently as well.
I swapped out the existing MAF sensor with a spare one. 
Viola! No more codes...


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## staulkor (May 21, 2007)

I have a spare MAF I can swap out. I will try cleaning mine first though. It has been a looong time since it was cleaned.


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## MetalSiren (Nov 4, 2008)

any luck getting rid of the CEL?


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## staulkor (May 21, 2007)

*Re: (MetalSiren)*

Time to bump this. I have had this CEL on constant since I created this thread. If I clear it, it comes back in 30 miles.
I turned on the car earlier to move it up to my driveway. It was stone cold. I swapped the MAF with one I have laying around (works fine). After the MAF was swapped, I get back in and turn it on. It has passed the cat warmup period and the revs have dropped to normal idle. I look at the a/f and it is richer than normal. I give it a quick blip to 2000 and the a/f stays at 10.7 for a good 10 seconds after the revs have dropped back to idle. Is this normal? Might I have a failing O2 sensor?
















I have emailed revo twice about this CEL and got no response...








When do they switch to winter blend gas? I would think mid October is a bit early for this area as it doesnt get col until mid November.
Revo settings are on B9 T7 F9


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*FV-QR*

what are u using to show ur AFR and EGT on ur head unit?
and yeah, id say ur O2 might need to be replaced if all else fails.


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## staulkor (May 21, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Krieger)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Krieger* »_what are u using to show ur AFR and EGT on ur head unit?
and yeah, id say ur O2 might need to be replaced if all else fails.

Car pc and a bluetooth OBD2 scanner with Dash Command running on the computer http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
On the way to class I noticed when I am coming to a stop, just before the car stop, the a/f plummets and goes to 9.5-10 for a short period of time and then comes back up to 14.6-14.7...


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

So you clear the code and it comes right back after very little time? I take it your fuel trims go very out of whack in almost no time, right? Does your oil smell like gasoline? How bout if you change your oil, clear codes, and then drive around? Does it come on quite as quickly or does it suddenly take a bit longer?
If that was a whole bunch of Yeses I think you may have lots of fuel in your oil either caused by the RS4 injectors washing down the cylinder walls or a leaky KMD HPFP. The fuel will get into your oil, then into your intake tract, finally messing with your fuel trims which will throw a rich off idle code.


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

Hmmmmmm.... In your Sig it says "KMD Fuel Pump". You were looking for the cause of your CEL? Wellp there it is. It seized up on you, I've got *$100.00 *that says that's your problem.


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## staulkor (May 21, 2007)

*Re: (rippie74)*

er, double post >.<


_Modified by staulkor at 8:52 PM 12-8-2009_


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## staulkor (May 21, 2007)

*Re: (rippie74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_So you clear the code and it comes right back after very little time? I take it your fuel trims go very out of whack in almost no time, right? Does your oil smell like gasoline? How bout if you change your oil, clear codes, and then drive around? Does it come on quite as quickly or does it suddenly take a bit longer?
If that was a whole bunch of Yeses I think you may have lots of fuel in your oil either caused by the RS4 injectors washing down the cylinder walls or a leaky KMD HPFP. The fuel will get into your oil, then into your intake tract, finally messing with your fuel trims which will throw a rich off idle code. 

Code comes back after 30 miles of driving. Fuel trims are actually ok for RS4 injectors, -0.3% short -4.5% long. Well I need an oil change so of course it will smell like gas since it has 5000 miles on it. I will have to wait a short time once the new oil is in to get a fair reading on that. And same goes to see if the CELs go away with new oil.


_Quote, originally posted by *rippie74* »_Hmmmmmm.... In your Sig it says "KMD Fuel Pump". You were looking for the cause of your CEL? Wellp there it is. It seized up on you, I've got *$100.00 *that says that's your problem. 

Where is my $100 because I still push my 130 bar all day long. Ive had a seized pump, I know what they do and how they act when they are seized...it aint seized http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Leaking? Possibly. But there are some other, more likely, things that it could be before that imo.
On a side note, replaced MAF and cleared codes before I went to class. 25 mile drive each way, CEL came on on the way home, lol.


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (staulkor)*

I'm telling ya bro, it's the hpfp


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## [email protected] (Aug 15, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_So you clear the code and it comes right back after very little time? I take it your fuel trims go very out of whack in almost no time, right? Does your oil smell like gasoline? How bout if you change your oil, clear codes, and then drive around? Does it come on quite as quickly or does it suddenly take a bit longer?
If that was a whole bunch of Yeses I think you may have lots of fuel in your oil either caused by the RS4 injectors washing down the cylinder walls or a leaky KMD HPFP. The fuel will get into your oil, then into your intake tract, finally messing with your fuel trims which will throw a rich off idle code. 

The pump internals are not the ones responsible of the possible leaks, we have had hpfp failures in oem pumps, kmd pumps and autotech pumps, so ill be carefull to call out a certain brand here.
the possible fail is caused because the spring seal of the oem hpfp goes bananas, cause you install a brand new pump into a allready used seal so the used seal, seals so to speak around the oem shaft, you put a brand new shaft in there call it kmd, autotech or awe and the seal its never going to be perfect, in some cases it fails in some it doesnt, so its better to install the internals in a brand new pump.
to the OP smell your oil if it smells too much to gas, then likely your hpfp its gone, if thats the case just buy a new one swap your kmd internals and you shouldnt have any more problems, if the problem persists send me a PM i now a little secret that also causes this problem and its a 35 dlls piece










_Modified by [email protected] at 8:22 PM 12-8-2009_


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## vwgtimk41088 (Nov 1, 2007)

*FV-QR*

Hasn't been mentioned yet, are you running OEM PCV or an aftermarket setup.
IIRC this could be associated with the PCV system.


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (vwgtimk41088)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwgtimk41088* »_Hasn't been mentioned yet, are you running OEM PCV or an aftermarket setup.
IIRC this could be associated with the PCV system.

I've still got that *$100.00 *on it that it's the hpfp, any takers?










_Modified by rippie74 at 6:45 PM 12-10-2009_


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*FV-QR*

if its the HPFP, its the seals, not the internals.
otherwise im still saying O2.


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## staulkor (May 21, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Krieger)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Krieger* »_otherwise im still saying O2.

I am going to "borrow" my sister's O2 sensor and see what happens


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (staulkor)*

what value do you have in block 32, field 2? Make sure you have not cleared code for about 100 miles or so and let me know what that reading is......
-J. Hines
Oil cap smell like gas?


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Krieger)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Krieger* »_if its the HPFP, its the seals, not the internals.
otherwise im still saying O2.

When the seals fail the pump piston gets scored/scratched up & then seizes. That's why I said previously that it's a hpfp failure. I speak from personal experience on this one.


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## cadbury99 (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (rippie74)*

I had similar symptoms but my fuel trims were way worse. It was a leaking seal on the HPFP.

-Cad


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## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Krieger)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Krieger* »_if its the HPFP, its the seals, not the internals.
otherwise im still saying O2.

O2 sensors don't just go bad, and replacing them is just a bandaid to whatever the real problem is. Silicone is a big no no for O2 sensors but the fact the you have this code is actually telling you that your O2 sensor is working properly. They generate a voltage based on the amount of HCs in the gas stream, varying from about 100mV to 900mV averaging about 450mV. If they are generating consistently higher or lower than this your ECU will take note. 
Pulling your HPFP is easier than swapping O2 sensors.


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (shortydub)*

The KMD pump internals are about 0.098mm larger in diameter than the factory pump shaft. 
Say you have 30K miles on your factory pump.......the spring-loaded seal is formed to the EXACT size of the shaft and when you shove the slightly larger KMD shaft through, it stretched the seal ever so slightly. But we are dealing with EXTREME heats here since it's bolted to the head and fuel which can get about anywhere!! 
And yes, if you let the issue go on long enough, you will scar the shaft and will need new internals, BUT if you have the latest version with the coating, this is not an issue! If the fuel in oil continues to go on for a even longer, you compromise having the bearing shells seperate from the materials on your rods and mains.......so BE CAREFUL how long you let this go on! You need to get the HPFP out and internals swapped to new unit ASAP!
-J. Hines
PM me, I have multiple pumps brand new in bags for this reason.....you should put a 100% UNUSED HPFP in with rebuild to ensure there are no issues!


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (staulkor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
The pump internals are not the ones responsible of the possible leaks, we have had hpfp failures in oem pumps, kmd pumps and autotech pumps, so ill be carefull to call out a certain brand here.
the possible fail is caused because the spring seal of the oem hpfp goes bananas, cause you install a brand new pump into a allready used seal so the used seal, seals so to speak around the oem shaft, you put a brand new shaft in there call it kmd, autotech or awe and the seal its never going to be perfect, in some cases it fails in some it doesnt, so its better to install the internals in a brand new pump.
to the OP smell your oil if it smells too much to gas, then likely your hpfp its gone, if thats the case just buy a new one swap your kmd internals and you shouldnt have any more problems, if the problem persists send me a PM i now a little secret that also causes this problem and its a 35 dlls piece










I meant no disrespect by mentioning the KMD pump, however as you mentioned the spring seals do 'go bananas' and leak. We discovered this early on in our fuel pump development program and as such install brand new seals with every pump. KMD pump reuses these seals, thus increasing chances of damage and leaking.
For the record, I have not seen an alarming rate of OEM pumps leaking. I actually don't think I've ever personally seen it happen. I've only see the issue after the internals were swapped and the spring seal was reused. 

_Quote, originally posted by *staulkor* »_Code comes back after 30 miles of driving. Fuel trims are actually ok for RS4 injectors, -0.3% short -4.5% long. 

So when the code comes on your fuel trims are only at -4.5%? In the cases I've seen similar to yours (rich/lean) fuel trims were above +-15% all the way to the max limit.


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## wazzap1101 (May 1, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (Krieger)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Krieger* »_if its the HPFP, its the seals, not the internals.
otherwise im still saying O2.

X2, O2 sensors will mess with the A/F ratio


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## staulkor (May 21, 2007)

On a side note, I just passed emissions, LOL. Maryland fail


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## IllusionalTA (Aug 31, 2009)

Well i'm sure it's all related i've got a 06 A4 w/ a APR Stg I i'm having a hell of a time fighting what the issue is.. I have a KMD internaled pump, and my Short Term's are maxed @ -25% and my Long Terms are -19%... Its filling up the crankcase w/ gas, and the driveability of the car blows.. on the hwy above 3K or so it buzzes along fine.. but below that.. its a nightmare!.. any idea if the HPFP seal's can cause my issues? that'd be a great easy fix...


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (IllusionalTA)*


_Quote, originally posted by *IllusionalTA* »_Well i'm sure it's all related i've got a 06 A4 w/ a APR Stg I i'm having a hell of a time fighting what the issue is.. I have a KMD internaled pump, and my Short Term's are maxed @ -25% and my Long Terms are -19%... Its filling up the crankcase w/ gas, and the driveability of the car blows.. on the hwy above 3K or so it buzzes along fine.. but below that.. its a nightmare!.. any idea if the HPFP seal's can cause my issues? that'd be a great easy fix...

The seals are gone & the piston will seize as a result. Be it scratched up or a burnt piston from rubbing against the housing of the pump. Either way,it's a hpfp failure.


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (IllusionalTA)*


_Quote, originally posted by *IllusionalTA* »_Well i'm sure it's all related i've got a 06 A4 w/ a APR Stg I i'm having a hell of a time fighting what the issue is.. I have a KMD internaled pump, and my Short Term's are maxed @ -25% and my Long Terms are -19%... Its filling up the crankcase w/ gas, and the driveability of the car blows.. on the hwy above 3K or so it buzzes along fine.. but below that.. its a nightmare!.. any idea if the HPFP seal's can cause my issues? that'd be a great easy fix...

Buy a new HPFP and swap internals over......remmeber ot use moly-lube on all components and make sure everything is clean when assembling. 
-J. Hines


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (jhines_06gli)*

If anyone want's to avoid this issue, they can pick up an APR HPFP. We have them on sale right now and every pump is built and tested for several minutes before ever being installed in your engine.


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (jhines_06gli)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jhines_06gli* »_
Buy a new HPFP and swap internals over......remmeber ot use moly-lube on all components and make sure everything is clean when assembling. 
-J. Hines

I did that & it still blew up... the same day


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## staulkor (May 21, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_If anyone want's to avoid this issue, they can pick up an APR HPFP. We have them on sale right now and every pump is built and tested for several minutes before ever being installed in your engine. 

Thanks for the sale pitch Arin. We already know this. And we don't actually know the cause of my rich codes. This entire thread is just speculation at this point and until I actually figure out what it is, the HPFP is the best *guess* everyone has. Keep marketing out of troubleshooting threads please.
And just to let you know, I unfortunately will probably get an APR fuel pump sometime in the future if it shows my HPFP is to blame. I say unfortunately because it is so damned expensive just like everything else APR.
Anyways, I have a new follower to swap in. It's about that time anyway.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (staulkor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *staulkor* »_ I say unfortunately because it is so damned expensive just like everything else APR.

The reason I brought it up is because the rebuild is also on sale which is almost half the cost. i wasn't sure if you were aware. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (staulkor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *staulkor* »_
Thanks for the sale pitch Arin. We already know this. And we don't actually know the cause of my rich codes. This entire thread is just speculation at this point and until I actually figure out what it is, the HPFP is the best *guess* everyone has. Keep marketing out of troubleshooting threads please.
And just to let you know, I unfortunately will probably get an APR fuel pump sometime in the future if it shows my HPFP is to blame. I say unfortunately because it is so damned expensive just like everything else APR.
Anyways, I have a new follower to swap in. It's about that time anyway.

*$100.00*... anyone... anyone...?


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*FV-QR*

just replace ur front O2 and see if that helps. its not like its incredibly hard to do, and ur O2 WILL throw off AFRs if its getting too old or dirty or got damaged or something...
if the seals in a HPFP were leaking, it would leak into the head of the engine.. not into the cylinders... so... how would that throw off the readings in the exhaust???
on a normal car, your supposed to change the O2's every 60k miles or so... these engines are insanely dirty and run incredibly rich 24/7 so i have no doubt they will foul out O2 sensors much faster. hell, when i installed my exhaust, it was pitch black with soot in less than 40 miles and i have to use a BRILLO PAD to scrub my bumper once a week to keep it from turning black and brown...
hell, he could be running rich because of a faulty injector, his EGTs are too high and its dumping fuel in there or any other number of things. when a sensor or reading is off, it throws alot of other things off. a little problem could make itself seem alot bigger than it really is.
and the guy already has a HPFP, and it works.... its still allowing him to boost all he wants, so its pressuring and delivering just fine.
i just dont see why every time there is even the most minute opportunity to pitch a sale, some company jumps on it like a fat kid dives into Willy Wonka's chocolate river!
we know stuff is on sale... there are tons of threads on it, and even more from the other companies who "distribute" them as well. we get it... its on sale... we noticed.


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Krieger)*

I could boost just fine when my hpfp started to go... then it turned violent, terrible idle quality, backfiring out exhaust (flames) etc... etc... but on the highway it was pretty good as far as driveability. I still say to the OP, swap out the aftermarket hpfp for a stock hpfp then change the oil & tell us how the car is.


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## staulkor (May 21, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Krieger)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Krieger* »_just replace ur front O2 and see if that helps. its not like its incredibly hard to do, and ur O2 WILL throw off AFRs if its getting too old or dirty or got damaged or something... 

I completely agree. I am going to swap mine with my sisters tomorrow and see what happens.

_Quote, originally posted by *rippie74* »_swap out the aftermarket hpfp for a stock hpfp

Yea, that will go over well with a k04 and rs4 injectors. I had MASSIVE fuel cuts (30 bar at peak boost) with a k03 and stock injectors, how low do you think I can go with a k04? Im thinking at least 15 bar







....
Also, oil change is happening next week.


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (staulkor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *staulkor* »_
I completely agree. I am going to swap mine with my sisters tomorrow and see what happens.
Yea, that will go over well with a k04 and rs4 injectors. I had MASSIVE fuel cuts (30 bar at peak boost) with a k03 and stock injectors, how low do you think I can go with a k04? Im thinking at least 15 bar







....
Also, oil change is happening next week.

Ok so just go get the APR hpfp & be done with it.


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## staulkor (May 21, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (staulkor)*

Did a bit of work on the car today. Replaced cam follower, swapped O2 sensors, installed new spark plugs. All of which had zero effect.
I was poking around the measuring blocks and block 33 shows real time short term fuel trims. Normal driving they are +/- 5% which is normal. However, once I come to a stop and am idling, they are anywhere between -15% and -25%








Also, whenever the car is coming to a stop, say 3-5 mph decelerating, the car takes a plunge towards rich and the a/f goes to 10.5 and then goes back to normal 14.7.


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## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (staulkor)*

dude....ur pump seals r bad....the kmd pump is the worst of all the pumps(from what ive read and talked to 3 people who had it) its basically a $300 paperweight


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## staulkor (May 21, 2007)

So if the seals are shot and fuel is going into the oil, how does the fuel get into the combustion chamber? I don't get how if the seals are shot it causes rich conditions. If one had a PCV system, then it would make sense, but I am running a catch can so all that fuel vapor would be evacuated to the atmosphere, correct?
Also, replacing my pump will cost upwards of $800. So until I know for a damned fact that is the problem, I will try other things that don't cost any where near that much.


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## [email protected] (Aug 15, 2008)

*Re: (staulkor)*

man try the stuff i send to your email , it might be the source of your problems, the only thing its a pain in the ass to change










_Modified by [email protected] at 6:52 AM 12-12-2009_


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (staulkor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *staulkor* »_So if the seals are shot and fuel is going into the oil, how does the fuel get into the combustion chamber? I don't get how if the seals are shot it causes rich conditions. If one had a PCV system, then it would make sense, but I am running a catch can so all that fuel vapor would be evacuated to the atmosphere, correct?
Also, replacing my pump will cost upwards of $800. So until I know for a damned fact that is the problem, I will try other things that don't cost any where near that much.

Ok fuel (not alot but some) will get into your oil because we have (DI) Direct Injection. It's a little more common on our engines than lets say a Conventional Fuel Injection set-up because the injector is located in each cylinder, rather than in the cylinder head (Contentional Fuel Injection). Now when the seal goes on the pump it not only dumps fuel into your crankcase at an alarming rate (mostly @ idle) but it also throws the pump internals out of whack. *We are talking about very tight clearences here.* APR assembles their hpfp's in a sterile enviornment, just like in a Hospital's Operation Room & I'm not kidding. The slightest misque will always result (sometimes not right away) in a _failure_, be it the piston seizing or the seals blowing etc.. etc..
My offer is still on the table *$100.00* that this is your issue... anyone... anyone...???
In all seriousness. Your hpfp is gone. Go get the APR hpfp for *$551.00* (currently on sale) & save yourself about $140.00+.. & anymore headaches you may encounter.











_Modified by rippie74 at 6:09 PM 12-12-2009_


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *rippie74* »_
APR assembles their hpfp's in a sterile environment, just like in a Hospital's Operation Room & I'm not kidding. 


i work in a an OR... its not a sterile room or environment, BY FAR. its sterile drapes, gowns and gloves that fight infection. Ive done emergency cases where the walls and floor are SOAKED in someone else's blood but we need the room and we will throw sterile drapes over everything and at the end of the day: no infections and no transfer of anything harmful to the op sight.
and why would a sterile environment matter exactly? if some GERMS get on the steel... OH NO!!! ALL IS LOST! right? lol
i think what u mean is they work in a CLEAN room, and that would make sense, to a point. you dont want sand and metal fragments getting onto ur pump and whatnot, but i bet you ten bucks that if i sat down at my kitchen table and built a pump i wouldnt get anything on it. it's just using common sense to not get crap into places it shouldnt be.
i do see what ur saying tho. im just really wondering how if the seals holding the HPFP piston in place and keeping the fuel from the engine head are failing... well... how the hell does it end up in the fuel rail? i just dont see this...
now, im not saying ur HPFP cant be the culprit, but i just dont understand how the seals keeping it from dumping in ur oil, also somehow make ur injectors squirt more fuel to throw off ur AFR and whatnot.


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## staulkor (May 21, 2007)

Nice rippie, you didnt answer any of my questions, lol. You just ranted about facts already known.
Krieger, fuel can get into the oil since the HPFP piston has fuel on one side and oil on the other and the seal in between is the one we are all refering too. If that fails, fuel could potentially not be "wiped off" the piston and some be transfered into the oil on the return stroke.
What I dont understand, is once the fuel is in the oil, once the fuel vapor is out of the oil, how does it get into the combustion chamber with no PCV system (atmospheric catch can). All of the vapor would be evacuated out of the system. Where else could it go?


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

As i have said in the past i have also been having idle issues with undetectable by VCDS misfires for the best of 6 months....
I am also getting very rich at idle, and my trims are at -0.3% and -5.5%.
I have switched injectors, coils, plugs, did a boost test...nothing...
I am now thinking of getting a new pump thrust sensor, and if that also fails, trying a stock pump to see if that works....
Although i also SERIOUSLY doubt its the pump.....


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (staulkor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *staulkor* »_Nice rippie, you didnt answer any of my questions, lol. You just ranted about facts already known.
Krieger, fuel can get into the oil since the HPFP piston has fuel on one side and oil on the other and the seal in between is the one we are all refering too. If that fails, fuel could potentially not be "wiped off" the piston and some be transfered into the oil on the return stroke.
What I dont understand, is once the fuel is in the oil, once the fuel vapor is out of the oil, how does it get into the combustion chamber with no PCV system (atmospheric catch can). All of the vapor would be evacuated out of the system. Where else could it go?

Basically I'm finding new ways of saying its your hpfp. lol


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (rippie74)*

are you getting 4-5 less mpg's than when you did not get this rich at idle code?


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *staulkor* »_
Krieger, fuel can get into the oil since the HPFP piston has fuel on one side and oil on the other and the seal in between is the one we are all refering too. If that fails, fuel could potentially not be "wiped off" the piston and some be transfered into the oil on the return stroke.
What I dont understand, is once the fuel is in the oil, once the fuel vapor is out of the oil, how does it get into the combustion chamber with no PCV system (atmospheric catch can). All of the vapor would be evacuated out of the system. Where else could it go?


thats exactly what i was saying... lmao


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## staulkor (May 21, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_are you getting 4-5 less mpg's than when you did not get this rich at idle code?

I am getting less MPG, but it was from the recent switch to the winter blend gas. Went from 31 average to 27 average. However, I had the light on well before they switched to the winter blend and I was still getting my normal 31.


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (staulkor)*

ok here is what i would do. First Clear the codes and unplug the maf and drive it about 50 miles and recheck and see if your code comes back. If the code did not come back and fuel trims look good swap the sensor with the car your swaped the 02 sensor from and test with a new maf sensor. If the maf sensor does not fix the car i would next swap out the pressure release valve to a new updated "C" version. If neither of these fix your issues just remove your hpfp and unscrew the large nut that has the piston seal on it and see if the piston bore is locked into the nut. (if this is the case you will still meet requested fuel pressure however you will have an internal leak.)


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## staulkor (May 21, 2007)

I have a spare, confirmed working MAF I already swapped into my car with no change. I will order and replace that pressure release valve ASAP.


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (staulkor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *staulkor* »_I have a spare, confirmed working MAF I already swapped into my car with no change. I will order and replace that pressure release valve ASAP.

& the verdict is....????


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

any updates????


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## staulkor (May 21, 2007)

Replacing the MAF did nothing.
Got an oil change on the 22nd and cleared the code when I was leaving. It took about 150 miles or so to turn on instead of the "normal" 15-30 miles.
I have recently had issues where on cold starts, the car turns on for a few seconds, then misfires it self to death and stalls. It will do this a few times if I do not intervene, but if I keep my foot on the throttle a tiny bit to keep it at 1100-1200rpm manually, it doesn't misfire at all. The misfires go away after roughly 20 seconds of the engine being on.
I changed spark plugs from NGK Copper 1 step colder to NGK Iridium 1 step colder, but unfortunately there is no difference with the misfires.
I am working on getting a stock pump with very low mileage so I can get it shipped to APR.


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (staulkor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *staulkor* »_Replacing the MAF did nothing.
Got an oil change on the 22nd and cleared the code when I was leaving. It took about 150 miles or so to turn on instead of the "normal" 15-30 miles.
I have recently had issues where on cold starts, the car turns on for a few seconds, then misfires it self to death and stalls. It will do this a few times if I do not intervene, but if I keep my foot on the throttle a tiny bit to keep it at 1100-1200rpm manually, it doesn't misfire at all. The misfires go away after roughly 20 seconds of the engine being on.
I changed spark plugs from NGK Copper 1 step colder to NGK Iridium 1 step colder, but unfortunately there is no difference with the misfires.
I am working on getting a stock pump with very low mileage so I can get it shipped to APR.

I had the exact same things going on with the whole cold start issue. It sucked!


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (rippie74)*

Def. fuel in oil due to oil change making the light stay off longer. As far as the misfires, what method do you use for keeping intake valves clean? And could possibly have some crud on the injector tips......hard to tell since you cannot see them really.
BTW, you have PM about pump.








-J. Hines


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## staulkor (May 21, 2007)

My valves are clean, trust me. I took off the manifold and manually cleaned them 5k miles ago. 
As for the injectors, who knows...but they cant be that bad since there is not even 20k miles on them.


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (staulkor)*

I just put a set of injectors in a TSI engine yesterday at 14K miles due to carbon all over tips and have done FSI cars as early as 15K.......so is possible. If you keep combustion temps. up by "dogging" the car on a regular basis, there is less likely buildup. But it is possible due to the angle the injectors sit in the cylinder. Also, not proven, but waiting for some results on exactly how much valve overlap our engines have. The exhaust gases flowing back in through intake valves and so-forth. Not sure how much of an impact this would have, but know it won't help anything!
But yea man, I have HPFPs if you are needing a stock unit, just let me know.
-J. Hines


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *jhines_06gli* »_Also, not proven, but waiting for some results on exactly how much valve overlap our engines have. The exhaust gases flowing back in through intake valves and so-forth. Not sure how much of an impact this would have, but know it won't help anything!


if im not mistaken, the valve overlap is a good thing in a FI application as the open exhaust valves keep sucking air out of the cylinder and into the turbo as the intake valves push clean and cold air into the cylinder... Thus, less exhaust gas is left over in the cylinder, therefore allowing more oxygen dense cold air to be pumped in.
Id think vacuum on the exhaust side and boost on the intake side would most certainly keep exhaust gases from flowing backwards... maybe in vacuum but when your actually driving and getting into it, it should be minimum if at all.
of course i could be wrong... this is all just theory after all till someone finds a way to document this.


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Krieger)*

precisely what I'm waiting to see.....PROOF. But thermal imaging of the engine working is about the only way to see it and don't think the Germans are that into the whole thing. But good project for someone has tons of money lying around to use








-J. Hines


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## marc1171 (Nov 19, 2008)

I had this Error - because my Throttle Body Flapper was broken.. I broke mine in halv twice now









Your's might just be a little broken off ?
When the car idle's and you take off the PCV on the intake mani, does it blow or suck in that ?
Just a thought...


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Seems like TB's are dropping like flies...
I'm waiting for a replacement for mine to see if that cures my rough idle....


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## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_Seems like TB's are dropping like flies...
I'm waiting for a replacement for mine to see if that cures my rough idle....

i wonder if thats from w/m?


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## staulkor (May 21, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (08 passat turbo)*

When I had my manifold off, everything looked dirty, but brand new. The throttle body was SPOTLESS. Completely clean.


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## marc1171 (Nov 19, 2008)

My TB problems is not caused by W/M, cause i don't use it








Mine cracked because of boost "problems"...


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## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

*Re: (marc1171)*

I have the same cold start issues. No code. I'm running Revo stage 4. I'm going to take off the intake mani and check my valves. I know this can potentially be harmful, but one morning I was pissed off about the carbed chevy sounding coldstart so I gunned it to redline hoping I'd blow the engine. Unfortunately, the car survived but chunks of half burnt carbon residue flew out of
my exhaust. Lol. 
I've been playing with all sorts of spark plugs as well as changing coil packs and have gotten nowhere. 
Last resort are new injectors


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi)*

I found that when I turn the key (in the morning or when the car has sat for a long period of time) & let the in-tank pump prime the system first... then when its done... I crank the motor & it starts up much faster that way.


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## staulkor (May 21, 2007)

*Re: (rippie74)*

That's what I normally do, but I still get the misfires.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi* »_I have the same cold start issues. No code. I'm running Revo stage 4. I'm going to take off the intake mani and check my valves. I know this can potentially be harmful, but one morning I was pissed off about the carbed chevy sounding coldstart so I gunned it to redline hoping I'd blow the engine. Unfortunately, the car survived but chunks of half burnt carbon residue flew out of
my exhaust. Lol. 
I've been playing with all sorts of spark plugs as well as changing coil packs and have gotten nowhere. 
Last resort are new injectors 

Is it better ?or worse? since the colder weather lately or no difference? When you log during cold start is it one cylinder or all four cylinders?







Bob.G


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

Alright.......I have my buddy's GTI back and it's the EXACT same thing. Lean off idle, the trim is 19.2%. I took some logs, so I'll go through them and see what there is to be read there. But I'm thinking possibly in-tank pump not able to keep up with demand? Not sure, just kinda throwing things out there at this point. Brand new MAF, clean valves, good cam/HPFP, HPFP reaching 131 BAR. Short-term fuel trim is good......stays at like -1.6%
-J. Hines
Make any headway on your car man?


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (jhines_06gli)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jhines_06gli* »_Alright.......I have my buddy's GTI back and it's the EXACT same thing. Lean off idle, the trim is 19.2%. I took some logs, so I'll go through them and see what there is to be read there. But I'm thinking possibly in-tank pump not able to keep up with demand? Not sure, just kinda throwing things out there at this point. Brand new MAF, clean valves, good cam/HPFP, HPFP reaching 131 BAR. Short-term fuel trim is good......stays at like -1.6%
-J. Hines
Make any headway on your car man? 

Everythings ok? I doubt the intake pump can't handle it, you have to make over 420whp for that to happen.
hmmmmm...
brand new factory hpfp?
Change the oil?
Clear the codes?


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (rippie74)*

HPFP failure causes rich faults......have yet to see one casue lean conditions. And it has 131 BAR available. I can swap one.....have several laying around, but it's not gonna help. All this started with my buddies car after the A3 throttle pipe install and the EuroJet VTA catchcan install. Gonna take catchcan off tonight and revert back to PCV fix and drive to work in morning......see what A/F does. 
-J. Hines
And not doubting the capability of the in-tank pump, but I have seen them go bad and cause off-idle misfires due to low flow volume. He has no misfires and the car runs pretty damn good still, just throws MIL after 60 or so miles and LTFT reaches 18+%.


_Modified by jhines_06gli at 9:37 PM 1-13-2010_


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## staulkor (May 21, 2007)

What intake? I'll bet your $5 that the intake is causing the problems. I have already had the issue you speak of a long time ago and solved it with a new intake. Swap on the stock air box!


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (staulkor)*

Neuspeed.....but ALL the REVO II+ cars in our club have Neuspeed and he's the only one with the issue. There are 5 of us altogether. And had the issue once with another friend's car last week and he has the EVOMs intake. 
But I could try the intake swap, just don't see how the intake causes this when he had the thing on there for almost 15K miles and over a year. I have had mine for almost 3 years and 101K miles, never a MIL for lean off idle. Seems odd that his LTFT was 4.2% on REVO II for the longest time and then he went II+ and got the A3 pipe and catchcan and now the reading will not stay below 18%







. Just happened overnight too!!! No slight progression or anything, just BAMM!!
-J. Hines


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (jhines_06gli)*

wierd thing is........just remembered that you had P2188 which is a RICH fault, this issue I am fighting is a LEAN off idle fault. Damn, exact opposite issue. But yea.........maybe new thread time for this one if I don't get it tomorrow.
-J. Hines


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (jhines_06gli)*

swap out the A3 pipe for the stock one...???


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## VWAUDITEK (Dec 26, 2006)

*Re: (rippie74)*

I can tell you personally,I have had 6 customers KMD pumps fail,and 4 that are still out there workng great......it is hit or miss.
As much as do not like the personalities at APR,I have sold 3 pumps for them,since that is where I send my customers now for fuel pumps.
They are the only pump I will recommend now.So far so good with the APR pump,but I still think Dave aka crew is a ding dong.


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (VWAUDITEK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWAUDITEK* »_I can tell you personally,I have had 6 customers KMD pumps fail,and 4 that are still out there workng great......it is hit or miss.
As much as do not like the personalities at APR,I have sold 3 pumps for them,since that is where I send my customers now for fuel pumps.
They are the only pump I will recommend now.So far so good with the APR pump,but I still think Dave aka crew is a ding dong. 

I had a KMD hpfp kit fail on me *2x in 4 months*. (the latest revision of their hpfp, & the version before that) It was a total nightmare, rented cars, missed days from work... To say that I was pissed is the understatement of the decade.








The 2nd time *they* (KMD) replaced the hpfp internals they ruined my entire hpfp, sensors & everything... 1st it was the grey sensor on the side of the hpfp. So I called KMD & said "wtf you guys damaged my hpfp sensor". He said to me "Oh yea those sensors are like $xx.xx dollars just get yourself a new one & you'll be ok". Yea, uhhh I was throughly disgusted with that answer as anyone else would be. 
So after that sensor was replaced it still ran like isht & threw CEL's. I pulled it back into the garage @ the dealership & upon further inspection we come to the conclusion that somehow they damaged that black sensor on the top of the hpfp body & you know what that means... a new hpfp is the only way to fix the issue.  (a new factory hpfp is what $450+?)
Thank god I was @ Douglas VW in Summit NJ when they (Jeff, Rick & the mechanic) figured out the hpfp was now toast, thanks to KMD. So they went into the parts dept. pulled a brand new hpfp off the shelf & installed it. For the record I seriously do not know of/or heard of ANY OTHER DEALERSHIP that would just give you/me a new hpfp like that. Since that day everything was ok. This was in April of 2009. So now I was driving around with my REVO program turned off, but at ease because the CEL's & BS were no longer an issue.















Soon after this I picked up the APR hpfp & all is cool. *ALL* of my fuel system issues have _magically disappeared_


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## TAIVWAUDITECH (Dec 23, 2006)

*Re: (rippie74)*

Yeah,had one car go through 3, one after the other.......so I guess that is 8 pumps going bad,lol......will never go there again.


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## jhines_06gli (Feb 3, 2006)

*Re: (rippie74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rippie74* »_
Thank god I was @ Douglas VW in Summit NJ when they (Jeff, Rick & the mechanic) figured out the hpfp was now toast, thanks to KMD. So they went into the parts dept. pulled a brand new hpfp off the shelf & installed it. For the record I seriously do not know of/or heard of ANY OTHER DEALERSHIP that would just give you/me a new hpfp like that. Since that day everything was ok. This was in April of 2009. So now I was driving around with my REVO program turned off, but at ease because the CEL's & BS were no longer an issue.

















Yea......you gotta know people. It's nice to be able to hook people up like that and see the relief in their eyes!
-J. Hines


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: (TAIVWAUDITECH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TAIVWAUDITECH* »_Yeah,had one car go through 3, one after the other.......so I guess that is 8 pumps going bad,lol......will never go there again.

Yea the word is out... & to top it all off, they could give 2 ishts if you have problems with _their_ hpfp. Pffft talk about standing behind your companies product.


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## rudismaximusvr6 (Jan 18, 2010)

*Re: (jhines_06gli)*

I honestly don't get what the problem is with these engines and there petty "dile too rich or lean" codes... Especially with them being turbocharged and direct injection. Plus any legit chip helps with performance. Can somone explain to me why this is???


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## skateboy918 (Apr 26, 2008)

Any update on this?

I am also REVO K04 and have the same EXACT issue.

REVO setting is B7 T4 F7


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## CoNGLoMeRaTeGTi (Apr 4, 2007)

set fuel to 9


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## GeorgeChios (Sep 12, 2004)

I have a LEON Cupra facelift. The car has OEM K04, and i have KMD fuel pump, Injen intake, Blueflame exhaust, REVO stage 2+ and I have the same issue. My settings are B9 T6 F9.

My friend has a Cupra Facelift but he has only Revo stage 1, and he has the same issue 

I have checked that I don't have any leak. I changed PCV, but the result was the same.
At block 32 at bank 1 I have -6.2% and at bank 2 +1.2....but I get 

ddress 01: Engine Labels: User\06F-907-115-CDL.clb
Control Module Part Number: 1P0 907 115 AB HW: 8P0 907 115 B
Component and/or Version: 2.0l R4/4V TFSI 0020
Software Coding: 0303000C18070160
Work Shop Code: WSC 66565 257 00032
1 Fault Found:

000370 - Fuel Trim; Bank 1: System Too Rich 
P0172 - 008 - Implausible Signal - MIL ON
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 11101000
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 2
Mileage: 15774 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2010.28.09
Time: 20:35:24

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 790 /min
Load: 20.4 %
Speed: 8.0 km/h
Temperature: 75.0°C
Temperature: 25.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 1000.0 mbar
Voltage: 14.351 V


Readiness: 0000 0000


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## Joeydabomb (May 1, 2009)

skateboy918 said:


> Any update on this?
> 
> I am also REVO K04 and have the same EXACT issue.
> 
> REVO setting is B7 T4 F7


Yeah I get this code once in a blue moon also with my Revo KO4 Stage 3 software but I always have a 
P0172 - Fuel Trim; Bank 1: System Too Rich that I can't figure out.


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## skateboy918 (Apr 26, 2008)

Joeydabomb said:


> Yeah I get this code once in a blue moon also with my Revo KO4 Stage 3 software but I always have a
> P0172 - Fuel Trim; Bank 1: System Too Rich that I can't figure out.


i'm starting to think that this is a RS4 injector issue?

perhaphs it design to flow so much fuel that at idle its still flowing more then what the ECU expects?


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## viziers (Jun 22, 2008)

Joeydabomb said:


> Yeah I get this code once in a blue moon also with my Revo KO4 Stage 3 software but I always have a
> P0172 - Fuel Trim; Bank 1: System Too Rich that I can't figure out.


I have the same code on my B7 A4 w/gt3076 and its always there, but i'm still in the fine tuning stages for mine to so??? But does seem to be common with the Rs4 injectors b ut then again most tuning companies like APR, AWE I think don't have this problem...



vizi


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

skateboy918 said:


> i'm starting to think that this is a RS4 injector issue?
> 
> perhaphs it design to flow so much fuel that at idle its still flowing more then what the ECU expects?


Nah im on RS4 injectors and my fuel trims for the last 2 years with APR Stage 3 have been + or - 1 or less. 

Since I made some recent changes with hardware my fuel trims have been higher but still within spec still on RS4 injectors.  Bob.G


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## Jasam (Feb 12, 2015)

did enyone solve problem with rich at idle? 


I have STFT -6.3 LTFT 1.2 

revo stage 3


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## ROMULUSCHIKAFUTWA (Apr 24, 2021)

jhines_06gli said:


> *Re: (rippie74)*
> 
> 
> _Quote, originally posted by *rippie74* »_
> ...


What was the solution with this fault code


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