# First impressions C2!!!



## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

Well,
As some of you know I run a Stage 3 VF and wasn't happy with the way the car ran. Figured I'd give C2 a shot to see what all the fuss was about. I ordered a 30# chip and 95mm maf housing. Installed it today and have a few concerns.
Car isn't running too well. It fired right up did everything C2 said it would. The idle was a little jumpy but nothing major. Let it run for a while and the idle settled which was good. Shut the car off and restarted it a few minutes later and the check engine light came on. We scanned it and it came up with the following fault code:
16486-Maf sensor (G70) Signal too low P0102
Took the car for a spin and it won't really rev very well. It hesitiates quite a bit and almost (but doesn't) stall when coming to a stop. If I try to blip the throttle on downshifts it just completely bogs.
When installing, I phoned Chris at C2 and asked if we should keep the MAF clamp that the VF kit comes with. He said to definitely remove it so we did. Isn't this what the MAF clamp does is adjust the Maf signal to read properly??
Anyways, I hope its a simple fix. Maybe a throttle body adaptaion with the VAG com?
Anyone have any insight???

Thanks in advance!
Derek


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*

dead maf.


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (nothing-leaves-stock)*

Really?? Not that I don't believe you because I'm certainly not Mr technical but I wouldn't think the car would idle at all if the Maf was done would it?
Derek


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## Road_Ralley (Feb 4, 2001)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*

your car will idle without it plugged in, albeit rough. Definitely a bad maf, mine was like that but never through a light before the c2 software. Must be more sensitive or something. Swapped out the maf and ran like a champ


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*

MAF too low = ecu is getting NO signal
when this code is present ecu assumes MAF is gone, thus MAF signals
will be ignored.
With this code present, you should expect the car to run crappy.
If MAF sensor is ok, then look closely at wiring...especially since you were
in there removing black boxes.
-Jeffrey Atwood



_Modified by Jefnes3 at 6:57 PM 3-28-2008_


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (Jefnes3)*

Cool thanks for the reply Jeff. I have a buddy coming over right now with a new MAF so we'll see if that fixes the problem!
Derek


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*

Well threw in the new MAF and the same thing happened. MAF signal too low code and it pretty much falls flat on its face if you get stab the throttle. It seems to run OK above 4000rpm and if I just slowly accelerate from a stop but if I mash the throttle or blip the throttle, its like nothing happens. How would I go about checking all the wiring from the maf to the ECU?
Derek


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*

My buddy just talked to VF and found out the injectors used which correspond with the C2 30# software. The only real difference now is that with the VF kit I'm running a high flow fuel pump and a 4bar FPR. The C2 stage one uses a stock fuel pump and a 3 bar FPR. Would this make a difference? Should I put in my 3bar FPR and see if that makes a difference? Another thing to mention is that at idle, after reving the car up a bit, there was a **** load of black liquid that shot out the back of the car. I'm assuming its a mixture of unburnt fuel and soot. Not sure though. Lastly, If I were to take out the relay that runs the high flow fuel pump, would the fuel still flow through the pump?
thanks again for any advice!
Derek


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*

i would listen to jeff....he's the guy that designed the programs!


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## sxracer001 (Jun 27, 2005)

put the 3bar back in, thats what the program is designed for


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*

OK..... we got the fault code sorted out. Thanks Jeff on the advice in respect to the MAF wiring. Turns out the wiring from the MAF clamp buggered things up so we rewired it and it seems to be good. No codes!!!!!
Second hurdle. Car will not idle on its own. It starts OK and revs cleanly however it won't hold an idle. I'm thinking now I need to do a throttle body adaptation. Would you agree or could it be something else?
Thanks again!








Derek


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## VR6OOM (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*

Make sure you have no vac leaks and that you plugged everything back in.


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (VR6OOM)*

Thanks for the reply. I wouldn't thnk I have any vaccum leaks as the car idled fine prior to the insall. The battery was unplugged during so i figured it could be a throttlebody adaptation issue!
Derek


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GINCH* »_ I wouldn't thnk I have any vaccum leaks as the car idled fine prior to the insall. 

um CHECK vaccuum leaks...you just installed a turbo setup...one of the biggest problems with turbo setups is vac leaks....
and do your TB adaptation


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (nothing-leaves-stock)*

Actually its a converted stage 3 VF setup. The charger has been in the car for over 6 years, I just changed the MAF housing and software.
Derek


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## Weiss (Jun 21, 2004)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GINCH* »_OK..... we got the fault code sorted out. Thanks Jeff on the advice in respect to the MAF wiring. Turns out the wiring from the MAF clamp buggered things up so we rewired it and it seems to be good. No codes!!!!!
Second hurdle. Car will not idle on its own. It starts OK and revs cleanly however it won't hold an idle. I'm thinking now I need to do a throttle body adaptation. Would you agree or could it be something else?
Thanks again!








Derek

Just curious where did you need to rewire from at both points?
Try unplugging the battery over night to clear all the EEPROM and RAM.


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## VR64ANT (Jan 24, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*

make sure your MAF sensor is pointing the right way. Many have overlooked this before.


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## nOOb (Nov 21, 2002)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (VR64ANT)*

HA! i was right about it pointing the right way. How do you tell which way it goes?


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## VR64ANT (Jan 24, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (nOOb)*

there is an arrow on the black plastic part of the sensor


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## Gaets (Feb 8, 2005)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (VR64ANT)*

I had the exact same problems with my c2 30# software on my supercharged vr. i thought it was a maf and i changed it but the problem still happened. Finally c2 told me to send it back and see if it was the chip. i havent had the chance to get a new chip and see if it cleared up because im back in school now.


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## VR64ANT (Jan 24, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (Gaets)*

i would love to hear some success stories VF'd 12v's before I pull the trigger on the C2 software.


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## VR6OOM (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (VR64ANT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR64ANT* »_i would love to hear some success stories VF'd 12v's before I pull the trigger on the C2 software. 

pm "bluemk3vr6". he kept getting "dead" chips in the mail...the 5th one was a charm. he thinks whatever scan tool the mail uses was deleting the info on the chips but now his car runs like sex.


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (VR6OOM)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6OOM* »_
pm "bluemk3vr6". he kept getting "dead" chips in the mail...the 5th one was a charm. he thinks whatever scan tool the mail uses was deleting the info on the chips but now his car runs like sex.

That seems weird. I assume a "dead chip" would cause the car to not run at all or throw all sorts of codes no?
I don't think I have a dead chip but I guess you can't rule that out 100%.
Derek


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## nOOb (Nov 21, 2002)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*

the other big question is why isnt C2 (or Kinetic for that matter) shipping their chips in anti-static bags?


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (VR64ANT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR64ANT* »_i would love to hear some success stories VF'd 12v's before I pull the trigger on the C2 software. 

Your looking at one. However, I made the switch to fix a problem. The car ran lean over 4500 rpm w/ my mods. Unless you are experiencing a problem or A/F ratio is off I don't think you'll get much benefit. If you are then try the C2 stuff. The tune seems to be much more "mod" friendly than the VF stuff.


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (VR64ANT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR64ANT* »_make sure your MAF sensor is pointing the right way. Many have overlooked this before. 

What type of negative effects would puttng the MAF in the wrong way do to the overal running of the car?
Derek


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## VR64ANT (Jan 24, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*

not exactly sure, could be anything from just a rough idle to not running at all. Its worth a look though


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## VR64ANT (Jan 24, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (VR64ANT)*

also... how far is the MAF from the charger in the stage 3 kit. I know VF reccomends a minimum of 16" but with the 4" MAF housing it may be causing more turbulence. That would cause a rough idle. Just throwing ideas out there...


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*

What do you make of this.......
























Due to the fact the car has been stored for the winter I just assumed it was a little unburned fuel and soot but it seems to just keep coming out. 
Any ideas?
Derek


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*

rich


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## VR64ANT (Jan 24, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (nothing-leaves-stock)*

my car does that (although not as extreme) on cold start up. Once the warm up process is done it doesn't run rich. Although i suspect my maf is on its way out.


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (nothing-leaves-stock)*

Would switching back to a 3bar FPR make it run less rich or is it software related?
Derek


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## VR64ANT (Jan 24, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*

i would try the 3bar. I think someone mentioned the c2 is made to run with the 3bar.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (VR64ANT)*

3 bar


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (nothing-leaves-stock)*

Sorry for all my stupid questions but could switching back to the 3bar make the idle work properly again or are running rich and the wacky idle 2 totally unrelated issues?
Derek


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## VR64ANT (Jan 24, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*

it could. You may want to pull your plugs while you are at it and make sure they are not fouled from running rich.


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (VR64ANT)*

the eprom is designed for the 3bar fpr. put that back in. also, do you still have secondary air injection? jeff told me a while back that i needed to plug in a sensor just so the ecu can run the o2 control properly. so if you have it, good, if not, talk to jeff.
also, you can adjust idle a bit with vag com. id do that as well.


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (-THROTTLE-)*


_Quote, originally posted by *-THROTTLE-* »_the eprom is designed for the 3bar fpr.  put that back in. also, do you still have secondary air injection? jeff told me a while back that i needed to plug in a sensor just so the ecu can run the o2 control properly. so if you have it, good, if not, talk to jeff.
also, you can adjust idle a bit with vag com. id do that as well.

Thanks for the reply. Do you think it would matter if I keep my high flow fuel pump and use the 3 bar? Or do I have to switch back to a stock fuel pump?
Thanks again fellas!
Derek


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*

i ran lean uptop with my setup, and jeff suggest a inline pump. 150 or 190lph. i opted for the 190, and so far my wideband shows im doing much better. ill dyno again soon and know for sure.
id leave it in. with only a stock intank pump youre going to push it with more boost.
btw - im on a 3bar fpr and inline...so youll be fine imo


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## nOOb (Nov 21, 2002)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (-THROTTLE-)*

derek you have a 255 walbro inline i believe in your setup.


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (nOOb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nOOb* »_derek you have a 255 walbro inline i believe in your setup.

Yeah thanks Andrew. I'm guessing that it should run fine with the High flow fuel pump and a 3 bar but we'll see.
I just doubt that the fact its running super rich has anything to do with the fact its not holding idle.
Any imput appreciated!
Derek


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*

if youre loading it with fuel, you may be drowning out the plugs, causing it to not idle.


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (-THROTTLE-)*

Should just assume the plugs are fouled and replace them? If so, what kind of plugs are recommended and what should they be gapped at?
Thanks agan!
Derek


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## VR64ANT (Jan 24, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*

For the Stage 3 VF kit
NGK BRKE7 (2 heat ranges colder than stock)
Replace every 10k miles


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (VR64ANT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR64ANT* »_For the Stage 3 VF kit
NGK BRKE7 (2 heat ranges colder than stock)
Replace every 10k miles

Thanks man! Waht should they be gapped at?
Derek


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## VR64ANT (Jan 24, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*

they come pre-gapped but i always check anyway. Its whatever the factory gap spec is. I can't remember off the top of my head. Consult the good 'ole bentley manual


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (VR64ANT)*

NEVER use "stock gap" on boost!
NGK (non platinum) BKR7E ---gap them at .024


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## nOOb (Nov 21, 2002)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (nothing-leaves-stock)*

yeah either 0.024-0.028.
I'm gaped at .028 on my setup D.
I can help you do that as I have the gapper sitting on my workbench.
What we will do is pull a plug or two and see what they look like.


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## VR64ANT (Jan 24, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_NEVER use "stock gap" on boost!
NGK (non platinum) BKR7E ---gap them at .024


hmmmm... i will try that. Im only stage 2; 8psi so should i stick to .024 as well?


_Modified by VR64ANT at 6:31 AM 4-1-2008_


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## Circuits (Jan 21, 2007)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (VR64ANT)*

D,
I'm running .028 with the NGK's on my Stage III.
-R


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (Circuits)*

we do bkr7e ngp plugs at .022 to .026 in nearly ALL the turbo cars we build...


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## VR64ANT (Jan 24, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_we do bkr7e ngp plugs at .022 to .026 in nearly ALL the turbo cars we build...

is the stock gap spec .022?


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (VR64ANT)*

no


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (nothing-leaves-stock)*

c2 recommends a gap of .024-.028 iirc http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
i too run two steps colder than stock. i ran one step colder and you could tell they were running hot, went to two, and they are perfect.


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## VR64ANT (Jan 24, 2000)

i think we may be on the vurge of high jacking the orignal intent of the post... ooops
will too small of a gap causing a slight bit of pre-detonation under boost?


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: (VR64ANT)*

So here is what I am doing this weekend to try solve my rich running/idle issues. Replace 4bar with 3 bar FPR and put in some proper plugs. Hopefulyy this changes things for the better.
Derek


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## Stroked1.8t (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (VR64ANT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR64ANT* »_i would love to hear some success stories VF'd 12v's before I pull the trigger on the C2 software. 

pull the trigger


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## Noobercorn (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*

c2 software is written for 3 bar on OBD2 cars. 
that mess from the tailpipe is unspent fuel. chech you FP.


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## Stroked1.8t (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (Noobercorn)*

did you know water is a by-product of proper combustion.


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## MY05GLI (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (Stroked1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stroked1.8t* »_did you know water is a by-product of proper combustion.

While each is unique, all the hundreds of
compounds that make up gasoline have one
thing in common-they are all hydrocarbons.
That is, they are all made of just two
kinds of atoms, hydrogen (H) and carbon
(C). The difference between one of these
hydrocarbons and another lies in either the
number of hydrogen and carbon atoms, or in
the way in which these two component elements
are arranged, or both.
Now, burning is a process of oxidation-a
combining with oxygen (O)-so, reduced to
its basics, when a hydrocarbon fuel like
gasoline burns, individual hydrocarbon molecules
from the gasoline combine with individual
molecules of oxygen from the air.
*The hydrogen (H) in the hydrocarbon combines
with some of the oxygen (0) in the air
to produce water (H2O), while the carbon
(C) in the hydrocarbon combines with the
rest of the oxygen to form carbon dioxide
(CO2)' In this process, a large amount of
energy gets released, in the form of heat.*
This chemical dance amounts basically to a
reversal of the processes that went into creating
the hydrocarbons in the first place.
Air, too, is a mixture of substances,
although all of them are gasses at room temperature.
About 78 percent of our atmosphere
is nitrogen (N); only about 21 percent
of it is oxygen. The remaining one percent
or so is made up of several rare gasses, like
neon and argon, plus CO2 and water vapor.
The chemical reaction of burning gasoline-
especially inside the cylinders of an
operating gasoline engine-is further complicated
by the presence of these other elements,
and particularly the nitrogen.
edit: also have same issue on a C2 42lb sw on a vr6t about idle and driveablility....though we also have a once you come off the throttle it just dies....checked a/f carefully dipped to 12 from the 13 it likes to be at..... id say out of 60 seconds it spends 50 of them at 13 and 10seconds at Stoichiometric Mixture



_Modified by MY05GLI at 11:34 PM 4-1-2008_


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## Stroked1.8t (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (MY05GLI)*

I could give two ****s and a **** why or how or what makes it happen, someone was passing it off at fuel, but it would be very unlikely that raw fuel would make it out the tail pipe. water is more likely.


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## MY05GLI (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (Stroked1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stroked1.8t* »_I could give two ****s and a **** why or how or what makes it happen, someone was passing it off at fuel, but it would be very unlikely that raw fuel would make it out the tail pipe. water is more likely.

slight wound aren't you.... nice spelling too


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## Stroked1.8t (Jan 9, 2004)

I am on standalone, I can make my afr 10.5:1 at idle, car barely running and no raw fuel out the tail pipe.


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## MY05GLI (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (Stroked1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stroked1.8t* »_I am on standalone, I can make my afr 10.5:1 at idle, car barely running and no raw fuel out the tail pipe.

wouldn't it just burn in the exhaust because of temp.... you can only drop so much from being rich


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## Noobercorn (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: (MY05GLI)*

you can easily not burn enough. think of this:
if you spew too much fuel to keep a steady idle, your afr's are gonna have to see it somewhere. the tail pipe is the point of least resistance.


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## Stroked1.8t (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: (Noobercorn)*

catalytic converter....yes some of us still use them


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## VR64ANT (Jan 24, 2000)

*Re: (Stroked1.8t)*

cars run really rich during a cold start. My car spews a little when i first start it up in the morning but it then goes away. Im sure a lot of when is getting spewed out is water and soot from running a tad rich. What boosted car doesnt run a little rich? Isnt that the safe way to go... run a little rich.


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## Stroked1.8t (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: (VR64ANT)*

high boost, high timing and rich


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## Stroked1.8t (Jan 9, 2004)

personally I run 11.8 in boost and it richens up to 11.2 at redline. about 25 degrees of timing. beat the crap out of it everyday, it safe.


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## MY05GLI (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (Stroked1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stroked1.8t* »_personally I run 11.8 in boost and it richens up to 11.2 at redline. about 25 degrees of timing. beat the crap out of it everyday, it safe.

where is what your posting actually helping?
i see better timing, also not running as rich you and im running w/m......


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## Stroked1.8t (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: (MY05GLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MY05GLI* »_
where is what your posting actually helping?
i see better timing, also not running as rich you and im running w/m......

its not, good for you.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (Stroked1.8t)*

NO way raw fuel is spraying out a tail pipe







no matter how rich it is








that condensation for the exhaust... guys geez.


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## MY05GLI (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (Stroked1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stroked1.8t* »_personally I run 11.8 in boost and it richens up to 11.2 at redline. about 25 degrees of timing. beat the crap out of it everyday, it safe.

those a/f are great for w/m you should run alil leaner(12.x) if not running w/m inj. you should see in increase in fuel mileage and power.......
25*, are you on stock cams? you can goto 28* im telling you my car runs like a raped ape with 26 or 27.3* at red.... 
Im getting better and this whole tuning.combustion.fuelinjection...
Im a third of the way through the Bosch fuel injection book ( i just finished learning d-jetronic and l-jetronic.... cant wait to reach Motronic, so i can understand why this g-d damned ECU is so finicky. the greatest thing though is the safety end of Me7, keeps me running safe with 10:1 compression...... also there are many channels locked from VW that can be flagged and turned on, if you can find it .... situation that will allow for two-step!!!!! ) on a side note damn Americans invented the damn thing in the Bendix corp, but sold it to Bosch think it wasn't worth saving.....schmucks!!!!


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (MY05GLI)*

W/M adds fuel. I've always read the car should run ~12.5:1 A/F before the Meth then tune it to 12:1 w/ Meth. That's straight from Snow Performance's website.


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## MY05GLI (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_W/M adds fuel. I've always read the car should run ~12.5:1 A/F before the Meth then tune it to 12:1 w/ Meth. That's straight from Snow Performance's website.

i understand but 11.8-12.4 worked the best on the dyno
even down to 11.4, you should lean your mix alil


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (GINCH)*

The fact.
you need the 3 bar regulator in there now.
It will clear up the idle and get rid of stumbles at 3/4 throttle.
raising the fuel pressure 17 psi screws the whole fuel curve to hell.
On my car it went from 14.5- 15 af at idle to 11.2 as read on my wide band.
caused it to fall on it's face at anything but full throttle over 45000
just switch the reg..it takes seconds...and clear the codes..and be happy.
trust me i'VE Been using there software for 3 years....you won't regret it.
Dave


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (Salsa GTI)*

or you listen to jeff 100% and stop asking random people online. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_or you listen to jeff 100% and stop asking random people online. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Why there is plenty if Mis Information on the Internets's


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## the_q_jet (Mar 19, 2005)

*Re: First impressions C2!!! (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_or you listen to jeff 100% and stop asking random people online. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
those are both dangerous options!


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## Stroked1.8t (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: (MY05GLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MY05GLI* »_
those a/f are great for w/m you should run alil leaner(12.x) if not running w/m inj. you should see in increase in fuel mileage and power.......
25*, are you on stock cams? you can goto 28* im telling you my car runs like a raped ape with 26 or 27.3* at red.... 

just playing it safe with my less then ideal standalone. M400 coming next week. then we will play with the numbers a bit and get her running better then she does now.


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## MY05GLI (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (Stroked1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stroked1.8t* »_
just playing it safe with my less then ideal standalone. M400 coming next week. then we will play with the numbers a bit and get her running better then she does now.

Any reason you went with motec? just wondering?


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## Stroked1.8t (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: (MY05GLI)*

its the best


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## MY05GLI (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (Stroked1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Stroked1.8t* »_its the best

good to know, so why is everyone on Autronic wenis?
I like the Bosch Motronic for its safety protocols really, hence the custom tune from Unitronic by Mike Z. Keeps my 10:1 safe with all that boost!
i never run below 20-23psi, and i try and live around 24-26psi---saving 27+ for the track..... breakN loose at 110+ feels cool, yet scary as the car pulls one direction...
were so off topic at this point...... PM me please











_Modified by MY05GLI at 5:42 PM 4-2-2008_


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## Stroked1.8t (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: (MY05GLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MY05GLI* »_
good to know, so why is everyone on Autronic wenis?


ignorance is bliss


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## nOOb (Nov 21, 2002)

*Re: (Stroked1.8t)*

k can we get this thread back on track please


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## MY05GLI (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (nOOb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nOOb* »_k can we get this thread back on track please

will have update on walts car hopefully by this weekend this weekend


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: (nOOb)*

Got new plugs and will be reinstalling the 3 bar tomorrow. Hopefully I'll have some good news!!
Derek


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## MY05GLI (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (MY05GLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MY05GLI* »_
will have update on walts car hopefully by this weekend this weekend

or now..... poo poo bad software.....lack of anti-static bag


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## nOOb (Nov 21, 2002)

*Re: (GINCH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GINCH* »_Got new plugs and will be reinstalling the 3 bar tomorrow. Hopefully I'll have some good news!!
Derek

derek i have that puller you need. you can swing by and grab it i can always leave it int he mailbox for you


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: (nOOb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nOOb* »_
derek i have that puller you need. you can swing by and grab it i can always leave it int he mailbox for you

Thanks Andrew!! I'll pop by in the morning!!
Derek


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (MY05GLI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MY05GLI* »_
or now..... poo poo bad software.....lack of anti-static bag









don't think so...
try 3bar , plugs gapped right drive it for 10-15 mins and the ecm will adapt...just do it....listen to the designer info, geez...


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## MY05GLI (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nothing-leaves-stock* »_
don't think so...
try 3bar , plugs gapped right drive it for 10-15 mins and the ecm will adapt...just do it....listen to the designer info, geez...

??? thats the op's issue not ours.... read back
OUR ISSUE ended up being bad software!
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...72136
To THE OP----edit: to much pressure will make your car run improperly, i agree about the change to a 3 bar...


_Modified by MY05GLI at 9:13 AM 4-3-2008_


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: (MY05GLI)*

Ok , so I installed the 3 bar FPR, installed new plugs, started the car and she sat there and idled really nice. Let it run until the temp was up to normal and took it for a drive. No idle. Everytime I pressed in the clutch , idle would drop and stall right away. Drove the car on some back roads for 15 minutes and idle would drop like a rock as soon as clutch pressed in. No check engine lights and runs very well on boost to 7K!!!!
Any thoughts?
Derek


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## Gaets (Feb 8, 2005)

*Re: (GINCH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GINCH* »_Ok , so I installed the 3 bar FPR, installed new plugs, started the car and she sat there and idled really nice. Let it run until the temp was up to normal and took it for a drive. No idle. Everytime I pressed in the clutch , idle would drop and stall right away. Drove the car on some back roads for 15 minutes and idle would drop like a rock as soon as clutch pressed in. No check engine lights and runs very well on boost to 7K!!!!
Any thoughts?
Derek

Exact same problems as mine had, mine would also hesitate when i tried to take off from a stop.


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## vaporado (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: (Gaets)*

I had a simular problem with my turbo setup. when you would 1st start the car it would idle fine after a few minutes it would drop in idle and idle jumpy. If you were on the throttle and let it decel it would die. It didnt matter if I was driving or just parked, you had to baby the throttle down on decel to keep it alive. We changed MAF's, TB, CPS and ECU. We went over wiring, we tried changing values for decel and idle through vagcom and also adaptations. We finally tried to isolate hardware from software and re-installed stock injectors, stock MAF housing and stock chip and just like that my problems went away. I am waiting for a chip that was overnighted yesterday morning that wont be here till next week.


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: (Stroked1.8t)*

Hmmmmm! Well I don't really know what to do now!!!! Damn i wish I would have just left well enough alone. Car was rock solid with the Stage 1 VF kit. Got greedy for more power!!! Would it maybe be a vaccum issue?
Derek


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: (Gaets)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Gaets* »_
Exact same problems as mine had, mine would also hesitate when i tried to take off from a stop.

Mine isn't hesitating at all. Like I said, the car runs awesome util I have to come to a stop!


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## VR64ANT (Jan 24, 2000)

*Re: (GINCH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GINCH* »_Hmmmmm! Well I don't really know what to do now!!!! Damn i wish I would have just left well enough alone. Car was rock solid with the Stage 1 VF kit. Got greedy for more power!!! Would it maybe be a vaccum issue?
Derek

i wouldnt think so. It has to be something that you have changed since the car last ran properly. This is all making me nervous about getting c2 software. Lots of good stories... lots of headaches too.


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## MY05GLI (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (GINCH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GINCH* »_
Mine isn't hesitating at all. Like I said, the car runs awesome util I have to come to a stop!









did you log/ record seesion on your A/F's? can i see them?


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## VR64ANT (Jan 24, 2000)

*Re: (MY05GLI)*

where is the MAF located in the stage 3 kit. Since its MAF based tuning, if the MAF is far away from the blower will that throw the readings off?


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## nOOb (Nov 21, 2002)

*Re: (VR64ANT)*

yeah but the car is running perfect with no hesitations or any other issues until you get off the gas and the revs start coming down and it wont hold an idle. So that leads me to think the MAF is fine, as would be the TB, as any issues with them you would assume would show up in the rest of the driveability as well.
We can check in vagcom and see where the idle is set, if its even set anywhere. Though this is almost to simple to be the issue but its a quick check.
unlike before in the car where when you got on the gas is hesitated and bogged down on itself that doesn't occur anymore. For all intensive purposes the car drives perfect, except it wont hold an idle. You can come down through the gears on the revs alone fine, but as soon as you clutch in it will bottom out and stall.


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## ERROL (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (nOOb)*

what you just posted is EXACTLY what we are trying to figure out with my friends car.. see link here http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=3..
he is awaiting a new c2 chip..


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## beetlevdubn (Apr 25, 2005)

*Re: (nOOb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nOOb* »_....... For all intensive purposes the car drives perfect, except it wont hold an idle.









Spoken in my best Princess Bride voice... "I do not think that means what you think it means...."... I think you mean "For all intents and purposes...."


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## nOOb (Nov 21, 2002)

*Re: (beetlevdubn)*

it was early....you're right hahahaha.
BTW I was helping GINCH with his car, minue isn't having any issues.


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: (nOOb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nOOb* »_it was early....you're right hahahaha.
BTW I was helping GINCH with his car, minue isn't having any issues.

Hey Andrew,
Rob an I are going to try switching back to VF stuff tomorrow. Change back the FPR, original MAF and software and see what happens. Figure the change of plugs, clean maf and removal of the MAF clamp might change things a bit. Probably around noon tomorrow if you want to pop by!
Derek


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## Noobercorn (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: (GINCH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GINCH* »_
Change back the FPR, 









as for the PB quotes........
"it's possible.................pig"
best movie/line ever.


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: (Noobercorn)*

Well, 
Spent some time this morning with the car. Reinstalled the 4 Bar FPR, OEM MAF housing and the Giac chip that came with the VF kit originally. Started up the car and it idled perfectly. No check engine lights either. Took it for a nice 15 minute drive and it worked out very well. Still has a very minor bouncy idle (sporatic) coming to a stop but overall I'm pretty happy. At least it is driveable at this point.
So I guess the C2 software didn't work too well for my application. I wouldn't hesitate to purchase their product again in the future for a different application however. I guess my car just didn't like it! 
Derek


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## VR64ANT (Jan 24, 2000)

*Re: (GINCH)*

Thats too bad it didnt work. Im second guessing getting the software for my VF kit now. Although im getting some pre-detonation between 5500-6200 rpms in 1st and second. I put a new MAF in and some power has come back in the mid range but the top end is still running lean. The only other mods i have besides the blower is an exhaust and cams. Im fearing the cams are just too much for the off the shelf VF software. I haven't heard very many success stories of C2 software with VF cars. Damn... should have gone turbo. LOL


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## Masta Flash (Feb 2, 2006)

*Re: (GINCH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GINCH* »_ Still has a very minor bouncy idle (sporatic) coming to a stop but overall I'm pretty happy. At least it is driveable at this point.

Derek









This might sound stupid... but I have had a bad idle for awhile now with my stage three kit... The shop who did the work did not put the check valve on, I bought one and it stopped my bouncy idle
on a second note Im running a FMIC on my setup, less piping than the VF kit try that if you want more power.. I guess


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## ERROL (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (Masta Flash)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Masta Flash* »_
The shop who did the work did not put the check valve on, 


which check valve are you referring to? is this a VF thing?


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## Masta Flash (Feb 2, 2006)

*Re: (ERROL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ERROL* »_
which check valve are you referring to? is this a VF thing?

I don't belive its just a VF thing...If I were to go turbo I would also run this...not having one caused me to boost into my evap emissions system (which only pulls a vac)


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## ERROL (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (Masta Flash)*

yes but where is it installed?


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## MY05GLI (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: (ERROL)*

Hey errol, wanna help take my car apart alil?
edit: do you own a small torque wrench 


_Modified by MY05GLI at 8:27 PM 4-6-2008_


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: (Masta Flash)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Masta Flash* »_
This might sound stupid... but I have had a bad idle for awhile now with my stage three kit... The shop who did the work did not put the check valve on, I bought one and it stopped my bouncy idle
on a second note Im running a FMIC on my setup, less piping than the VF kit try that if you want more power.. I guess









More info on this check valve please. Where does it go? how much etc!!
Thanks 
Derek


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## Masta Flash (Feb 2, 2006)

*Re: (GINCH)*

PM'd


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## Masta Flash (Feb 2, 2006)

*Re: (ERROL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ERROL* »_yes but where is it installed?


I'll get a pic up when I get home


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## nOOb (Nov 21, 2002)

*Re: (Masta Flash)*

that sucks the C2 stuff didn't work properly.
maybe one of the C2 boys can chime in with some thoughts on the issue? seems strange it wouldn't work


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## Masta Flash (Feb 2, 2006)

*Re: (nOOb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nOOb* »_that sucks the C2 stuff didn't work properly.
maybe one of the C2 boys can chime in with some thoughts on the issue? seems strange it wouldn't work

Same thing I don't get...I spoke with C2 who assured me that it would work like a charm


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## Masta Flash (Feb 2, 2006)

*Re: (ERROL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ERROL* »_yes but where is it installed?


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## ERROL (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (Masta Flash)*

^^ good info. thanks for posting the pic


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: (ERROL)*

Where would I buy this check valve?
Derek


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: (GINCH)*

what is the point of the valve? ive never seen that done before.


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (Masta Flash)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Masta Flash* »_
Same thing I don't get...I spoke with C2 who assured me that it would work like a charm

The current tune's fuel and timing maps are 3+yrs old. There are many
car owner dyno charts proving the quality of the tune. 
Typically, issues such as these are due to set-up.
-Jeff


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## ERROL (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*

^^ hey Jeff..
for your NEW obd2 42lb software, what is the recommended distance from the filter to the MAF (in the 4" housing), and the MAF to the turbo inlet? does this parameter even matter?


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_

Typically, issues such as these are due to set-up.
-Jeff

I've heard of many VRT's running this software with great results however can't seem to find any that run this software on SC'd VR's.
Wouldn't it be safe to assume that after I switched back my stock maf, 4 bar and VF software and it idled fine that it could be C2 software related? I understand there are many variables but It could be the software no?
Derek


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (GINCH)*

I'm not answering for Jeff but I would think it absolutely could be the software as it pertains to YOUR car. Pretty sure that tune was done on a turbo car. It was worth a try but you are running a supercharger. Kind of the way it goes with "chip" tunes. Different mods, setups, etc. I went through the same thing. Deckmandubs runs the GIAC chip that came with his VF kit and A/F is ~12:1. That same software ran ~15:1 on my car. C2 #30 dizzy chip runs ~11-11.5:1. It's pretty amazing that the tunes are as good as they are considering the tuner never touches anyones car other than the original http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
What exactly was the GIAC chip doing?


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## GINCH (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: (slc92)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slc92* »_What exactly was the GIAC chip doing?

Basically throwing a running rich code setting off the CEL. It has an occasional bumpy idle coming to a stop in slow moving, stop and go traffic!
And just so everyone knows, I think C2 is a great company with amazing software. Unfortunately it didn't work with my application. I think the problem for companies like C2 is that they send software to a lot of non mechanic type people (such as myself) that hope that by installing a chip that it will be a miracle cure. I truly believe that if my car was at their store that they would probably be able to make the car run perfect because they know what to check to make everything function properly. I wouldn't hesitate to buy from them again however on a different application.
Derek


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: (GINCH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GINCH* »_
And just so everyone knows, I think C2 is a great company with amazing software. Unfortunately it didn't work with my application. I think the problem for companies like C2 is that they send software to a lot of non mechanic type people (such as myself) that hope that by installing a chip that it will be a miracle cure. I truly believe that if my car was at their store that they would probably be able to make the car run perfect because they know what to check to make everything function properly. I wouldn't hesitate to buy from them again 
Derek

great attitude about it! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif very true! C2 stuff is the best and not everything is a "software problem"


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## Masta Flash (Feb 2, 2006)

*Re: (nothing-leaves-stock)*

Well, Ive been running the check valve for a week now with no surging @ idle 
Im still trying to firgure out why i keep getting the rich code


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