# whos tuning their supercharged VR6's?



## GTTechnics (Apr 2, 2003)

It seem as though 90% of the people with superchargers on their vr's aren't tuning further than the pulley that the kit came with (which for most kits is about 7psi of boost). I'm curious what the last 10% are doing. C2 motorsports has made some great advancements in this category...and they say that a 15psi pulley can be used with lower compression (8.5 to 1) but I haven't heard of anyone running this setup, and unfortunately they don't have their own IC kit yet (it doesn't help that I am in arizona with hot temps and bad gas). EIP has a FMIC kit, but I can't even find underhood pics let alone an owner of the kit. Other ideas have been an A/W intercooler with a shorty intake (which I have seen pics of, but have never heard experiences about) and Water Injection (I worry about what consequences there would be if I tuned for WI then the car ran out of water for whatever reason, plus I would run straight water, I dont want to deal with wiper fluid or chemicals all of the time).
All in all experienced input would be great, personal experiences would be very helpful as well. Oh yeah, please don't respond with advice to ditch the charger for a turbo...


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## the4ork (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: whos tuning their supercharged VR6's? (GTTechnics)*

its because the 90% go sc because their too afraid to do a turbo, and are afraid of all the work and fabbing. they want more of a bolt on, instant hp with way less work. for that reason, you dont see alot of people doing custom jobs, because if their going to go do the work, might as well go turbo and make big hp.
as far as IC setup, if your looking to get creative like the other 10%, go with an AWIC, and a large heat exchanger.
im doing an awic /w a peltier heat exchanger, i live in hot climate too (sentral cali, 105* temps in the summer) and even my n/a mk2 with the bigger radiator overheats.
people who bash awic's are just too lazy to do the install


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## kamakazi (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: whos tuning their supercharged VR6's? (the4ork)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the4ork* »_its because the 90% go sc because their too afraid to do a turbo, and are afraid of all the work and fabbing. they want more of a bolt on, instant hp with way less work. for that reason, you dont see alot of people doing custom jobs, because if their going to go do the work, might as well go turbo and make big hp.
as far as IC setup, if your looking to get creative like the other 10%, go with an AWIC, and a large heat exchanger.
im doing an awic /w a peltier heat exchanger, i live in hot climate too (sentral cali, 105* temps in the summer) and even my n/a mk2 with the bigger radiator overheats.
people who bash awic's are just too lazy to do the install









Naaa! we're not lazy, we just prefer reliability than peak hp







Plus people who live in Cali have to conform to C.A.R.B.


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## LSinLV (Nov 25, 2001)

*Re: whos tuning their supercharged VR6's? (kamakazi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kamakazi* »_
Naaa! we're not lazy, we just prefer reliability than peak hp







Plus people who live in Cali have to conform to C.A.R.B.

X2 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
and I am pushing 10~11 psi....


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## kamakazi (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: whos tuning their supercharged VR6's? (lsinlv)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lsinlv* »_
and I am pushing 10~11 psi....









Hows the car running at that boost levels? Mine is currently stg2 @ 9psi and took over a month to get the right software/injector combination to "mellow" it out like a kitten







Love the way the power just rises from idle though


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## GTTechnics (Apr 2, 2003)

*Re: whos tuning their supercharged VR6's? (lsinlv)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lsinlv* »_
and I am pushing 10~11 psi....









is this with just the intercooled vf stage 3 kit? or is there more in the equation?


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## LSinLV (Nov 25, 2001)

*Re: whos tuning their supercharged VR6's? (kamakazi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kamakazi* »_
Hows the car running at that boost levels? Mine is currently stg2 @ 9psi and took over a month to get the right software/injector combination to "mellow" it out like a kitten







Love the way the power just rises from idle though









you have a 24v motor, I have a 12v motor...VF builds a stg III for the 12v cars....boost is rated @ 10psi but depending on air density (like winter)...myself and other stg III owners have been seeing 11psi...








as for the other question, maybe







, but it's mostly stock stg III setup w/IC....each motor seems to be different, and how it reacts to the VF unit/charging...not sure why...but they are?
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 20psirabbit (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: whos tuning their supercharged VR6's? (lsinlv)*

i just wish i could get software for my obd1 dizzy rado, the only thing holding me back from 15psi, don't wanna go standalone


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## 95raddo (May 24, 2002)

*Re: whos tuning their supercharged VR6's? (20psirabbit)*

Consider an SMT6 for fueling. It ended up being something like 7 wires T'ed into the ECU harness. Very easy for me once I got it figured out. Easy to tune with your laptop. No wideband capability but whats $100 for a few dyno pulls that you can use to make changes to the map in the SMT6 software. You can control fuel and timing. I don't know what you are running now but if you lower your compression, throw in some 42# injectors and you should be good to run 15pounds. Probably not much more than that without some stronger internals and a high flow fuel pump. Hope you do some tranny (if you haven't already) work before you consider doing any of this. I destroyed my tranny on 7psi at the track.


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## GTTechnics (Apr 2, 2003)

*Re: whos tuning their supercharged VR6's? (95raddo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *95raddo* »_ I don't know what you are running now but if you lower your compression, throw in some 42# injectors and you should be good to run 15pounds. Probably not much more than that without some stronger internals and a high flow fuel pump.

c2 seems to have the same requirements for 15psi...but do you think that it will run smoothly with such hot air? Perhaps the EIP FMIC (which will cost you a few pounds of boost) or water injection couldn't hurt in the mix?


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## 95raddo (May 24, 2002)

*Re: whos tuning their supercharged VR6's? (GTTechnics)*

You are definately right on that. You may get away without charge-cooling 15 psi of boost in colder outside air temps but boosting that much in hotter weather will need some cooling. Water injection is definately an option. I know some guys that use the existing windsheild washer fluid pump and resovior and inject it into the intake. Seems like an easy and clever way to do it. One neat thing about the SMT6 is the switching output. Some people use it to switch on nitrous at a specified throttle position and or rpm; it could also be used to control water injection at a specified temp.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: whos tuning their supercharged VR6's? (95raddo)*

Well I see 14+ psi and made 310hp with the intercooler.. I want to make a smooth clean 350..


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## 20psirabbit (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: whos tuning their supercharged VR6's? (Scooter98144)*

^^^ wheel hp?
thanks for the tip on that smt-6, i'll look into that http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: whos tuning their supercharged VR6's? (20psirabbit)*

Well I am at 310 at the wheels with the current set up. Not crank HP..LOL I also have a set of schrick 248's sitting here with a mildly ported head as well. That along with a 2.75" pulley should make for 15-16 psi.. So YES 350 hp at the wheels should be within reach. 
That 350 would also be in the 5500-6800 RPM range so Up high in RPM it is like a mad beast. Just look at my last dyno and push that curve up a a few more bars..


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## 20psirabbit (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: whos tuning their supercharged VR6's? (Scooter98144)*

i'm going to see how your project comes out here then, because 350whp is what i was shooting for, but then everybody started saying it's not going to happen on s/c, and i don't really have the $$$ or patience to dump in if it's not feasible...


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## EURO_POWER (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: whos tuning their supercharged VR6's? (20psirabbit)*

Here are some pics of my car.....I am waiting for Autronic SMC install.......bigger injectors, I was hoping to have the Autronic installed a couple of weeks ago....but still waiting.......I am maxed out with the pulley size but if i am going to make more power, off with charger and on with Turbo 
http://www.hostdub.com/europower
look under FMIC and see how I put things together. If any of you have any questions please feel free to ask.....
and just so you all know this is a VF Stage II Charger on a 93 Corrado that I modified to to something like there mk3 stage 3 setup...except the fact that i went with Standalone, larger injectors and Msd


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## scottnbarb (Jan 19, 2002)

*Re: whos tuning their supercharged VR6's? (EURO_POWER)*

I am more than a little curious if any of you SC guys have tried this product with your setup? Kenne Bell Boost-a-Pump
http://www.kennebell.net/acces...p.htm
It seems that this is a standard piece of equipment with the Mustang SC kits and really helps with fuel delivery at WOT.


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## GTTechnics (Apr 2, 2003)

*Re: whos tuning their supercharged VR6's? (scottnbarb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *scottnbarb* »_I am more than a little curious if any of you SC guys have tried this product with your setup? Kenne Bell Boost-a-Pump
http://www.kennebell.net/acces...p.htm
It seems that this is a standard piece of equipment with the Mustang SC kits and really helps with fuel delivery at WOT.

it looks like it just modifies the MAF signal during open loop operation...and it might automatically bump you into open loop when you pass 3psi as well. Whether or not it will work on a dub is questionable, since I ahve yet to see a real piggback work well.


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## scottnbarb (Jan 19, 2002)

*Re: whos tuning their supercharged VR6's? (GTTechnics)*

The only one on the tex I have seen using one of these is "Peter Tong". The tests he did showed that the voltage to his fuel pump started to drop off as he turned up the boost on his CIS turbo system. This caused him to lean out at WOT. Less voltage = less fuel coming from the fuel pump. A common problem with SC VW's, possibly, might be something worth checking considering all of the other options.
This seems to be the reason why the product is sold as part of the package with N/A SC kits. The voltage drop seems to be a common problem on a lot of cars.


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## keijer (Apr 23, 2005)

I am tuning my VF supercharged VR6, front mount I/C, and custom pouley, Only there is not much left from the original VF kit : )
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto=LCXY8ZKA.jpg
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto=N4OTV8QV.jpg
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto=E3OJXHKA.jpg
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto=I8GELGT7.jpg


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## EURO_POWER (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (keijer)*

this looks pretty good.....take a look at my pics.....i ended up using 3" piping after the intercooler.....and if you are using the V9 charger then you really can't go smaller then 2.2" but the piping looks great!!! i am starting to think that i am going to up my compression to 10:1 rather then the 9:1......

good luck the pics look great
keep up the great work


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## GTTechnics (Apr 2, 2003)

*Re: (EURO_POWER)*

it's interesting that most of the people that are replying are corrado owners...I guess you guys don't get as much love from the turbo kit companies


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## TnT2theMax (Dec 28, 2002)

*Re: (GTTechnics)*

Hopefully I can get my golf running in the next couple of weeks. I am using SDS on a VR6 Vortech V2 and using the wms wideband to tune.


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## 20psirabbit (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: (GTTechnics)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTTechnics* »_it's interesting that most of the people that are replying are corrado owners...I guess you guys don't get as much love from the turbo kit companies









there's just no software available for out cars seeing as how they're obd1 and most of them are dizzy motors, there seems to be a bit more love for the obd1 coilpack motors, but dizzy cars get no love








most of the companies say that there's not enough of a market for them to make it worthwhile to make up software for us so we're screwed


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## EURO_POWER (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (TnT2theMax)*

One of the major problems is that we already bought the VF kits long ago....and there was no way i was going to spend 7000 on a turbo kit. So just about a year or so Turbo kits started to really come out with really great prices.....so I went and bought the V9 charger....there are not to many choices for upgrades.....i went to the smallest pulley that could probably put on and i put a FMIC on...Standalone....otherwise not to much more i can do before i go TURBO......
And for the FMIC the kits they have route around the engine....so i decided that i was going to make my own.....the car runs right now....i just need the standalone installed and i will give you guys numbers.....I have a couple of questions that i would like to ask.....i did some answers......but i want to make sure......i have 9:1 compression and i was wondering if i were to up it to 10:1 would that be a bad thing? I know most of the companies that sell the kits are not having the customers lower the compression. And how much boost is too much on a SC VR6, before lowering the compresstion?


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## TnT2theMax (Dec 28, 2002)

*Re: (EURO_POWER)*

It wouldn't be bad to up the compression if your motor is built for it. (Pistons, ARP all around, valve train, and metal headgasket).
I would say to be safe 8 - 10 lbs would be the max for daily stock motor.


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## GTTechnics (Apr 2, 2003)

*Re: (TnT2theMax)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TnT2theMax* »_It wouldn't be bad to up the compression if your motor is built for it. (Pistons, ARP all around, valve train, and metal headgasket).
I would say to be safe 8 - 10 lbs would be the max for daily stock motor.

I am going to have to disagree...none of those components prevent detonation, they just allow a greater margin for error when tuning or are more sturdy for higher torque applications.


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## dcvento (Aug 1, 2001)

*Re: (GTTechnics)*

im running cams and 11psi c2 30 inj setup. no issues at all..havent had any for over a year s ince ive had the kit http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## GTTechnics (Apr 2, 2003)

*Re: (dcvento)*

so noone is running the C2 2.5" pulley (15psi) with no provisions for charge cooling?


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## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: (GTTechnics)*

I run a 2.87 PSI pulley and it makes a nice 14PSI @ 6800 rpm


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## GTTechnics (Apr 2, 2003)

*Re: (Scooter98144)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scooter98144* »_I run a 2.87 PSI pulley and it makes a nice 14PSI @ 6800 rpm

thats strange...why do you think that is? less pressure drop due to the shorty intake manifold perhaps? C2 lists the same pulley as maxing out at 10-11psi


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## EURO_POWER (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (Scooter98144)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scooter98144* »_I run a 2.87 PSI pulley and it makes a nice 14PSI @ 6800 rpm


on what charger? not a V9 that is forsure......thanks for the info from all of you.....


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## Scooter98144 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: (EURO_POWER)*

I V1 of course. The V9 is way to small to make real good power. Fine for the VF's under powered kits but not for Me.


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## dcvento (Aug 1, 2001)

*Re: (Scooter98144)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scooter98144* »_I run a 2.87 PSI pulley and it makes a nice 14PSI @ 6800 rpm


heard that from a few peeps. wish my stg 1 c2 could handle that much boost.


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## mikebobelak (Apr 9, 2002)

*Re: (GTTechnics)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTTechnics* »_so noone is running the C2 2.5" pulley (15psi) with no provisions for charge cooling? 

I got one, no intercooler as of yet. Runs good ,just much better when its below 75-ish.


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## EURO_POWER (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (dcvento)*

is there a big diff between v1 and v2 i thought they were about the same......2.7 would give a V1 charger 12psi not 14...... but i guess that depends on the setup right? I am not even sure what kind of boost i am going to get. v9 charger with 2.2" pulley on 2.9l vr6 big valve head, cat 256 cams, FMIC, 2.9l cloned intake....tuned with autronic......what kind of power do you think i can get?


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## keijer (Apr 23, 2005)

The set up is ready and running at last, very happy : )
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto=DLK7ZHOW.jpg
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto=QRNIM6JQ.jpg
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto=A6VVSWV4.jpg


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## TnT2theMax (Dec 28, 2002)

*Re: (keijer)*

wow, that looks nice, how about some details on your setup?


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## abt cup (Aug 1, 2000)

*Re: (keijer)*

Do you have any closeup pictures of your piping?


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## EURO_POWER (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (keijer)*

great numbers on the setup.....i wish to see some higher numbers with mine, but at least i can see it for myself, sorry about not getting you the pic you were looking for.....but looks like you got stuff done.....great job


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## mode12 (Apr 26, 2000)

*Re: (GTTechnics)*

I know of 3 different guys here in Minneapolis with the 15psi and no intercoolers.


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## EURO_POWER (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (mode12)*

Its not as important to have IC with SC cars.....but you will see a BIG DIFFERENCE with IT. tell one of them to give it a try....i bet you get 15-20 hp with it maybe up to 30 hp diff. Ask around.


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## keijer (Apr 23, 2005)

*Re: (EURO_POWER)*

sure : )
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto=8T7BR4PO.jpg
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto=LZYNKWQM.jpg
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto=KY7CY88L.jpg
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto=LJ3Y6SV4.jpg
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto=HT7YPNI4.jpg
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Foto=IBJSY38D.jpg


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## LSinLV (Nov 25, 2001)

*Re: (mode12)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mode12* »_I know of 3 different guys here in* Minneapolis *with the 15psi and no intercoolers. 

try doing it in the SW, where ambients are regularly over 100F, and 91 is the best octane at the local gas station....
An IC DOES make a very big difference....I forgot the formula, but as you compress air, it heats, and the heat gain is not linear.....
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ArticFox (Apr 19, 2005)

*Re: (lsinlv)*

Im tuning my setup. Im doing a V1 @ 8.5psi, Cat 256 cams, FMIC, ABV Tbody, Short Runner Manifold with 10:1 comp. I might add a 50 wet shot of nitrous to the mix to make sure im over then 300whp hump


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## slappynuts (Feb 27, 2005)

*Re: (EURO_POWER)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EURO_POWER* »_Its not as important to have IC with SC cars....

BULL!


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## TnT2theMax (Dec 28, 2002)

*Re: (slappynuts)*

I agree, I only run the 8 psi pulley which peaks about 9 - 10 and even then I notice heat soak.


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## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (TnT2theMax)*

my buddy down here has a 1.8t 20v in his 96 golf. he is running a PWR air to water intercooler. it works great. he has it running to a factory vw front mount heat exchanger made for late model vr6's. he runs 13psi but its turbo not sc. but boost is boost right.??


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## JETTSET (Oct 16, 2001)

*Re: (Scooter98144)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scooter98144* »_I V1 of course. The V9 is way to small to make real good power. Fine for the VF's under powered kits but not for Me.

















Another completely asinine comment


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## EURO_POWER (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (slappynuts)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slappynuts* »_
BULL!

if you have a SC vr6 with 10psi
and you have a Turbo with 10psi
the turbo car has a lot more heat 
a SC doesn't create or have anywhere near the heat a turbo has....exhaust V/S Fresh air hhhmmmmmm.......
go figure
there goes your bull!!!


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## GTTechnics (Apr 2, 2003)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jhayesvw* »_my buddy down here has a 1.8t 20v in his 96 golf. he is running a PWR air to water intercooler. it works great. he has it running to a factory vw front mount heat exchanger made for late model vr6's. he runs 13psi but its turbo not sc. but boost is boost right.??

I have looked into the PWR barrel a/w IC, but the problem is that the one that would fit w/o a short runner (4x6") wont flow anywhere near enough cfm







at least on paper....
BTW- centrifugal superchargers actually act as a mild oil cooler, while a turbocharger acts as an oil heater. Whether or not this combats detonation well is questionable though


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## slappynuts (Feb 27, 2005)

*Re: (EURO_POWER)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EURO_POWER* »_if you have a SC vr6 with 10psi
and you have a Turbo with 10psi
the turbo car has a lot more heat 
a SC doesn't create or have anywhere near the heat a turbo has....exhaust V/S Fresh air hhhmmmmmm.......
go figure
there goes your bull!!!
















Heat is created by the process of compressing the air.It also has alot to do with compressor efficiency(superchargers are very poor efficiency compared to most turbos).This means they would benefit as much or probably more with an intercooler.One thing to keep in mind is that most supercharger cars spend alot less time at full boost.
If you don't have a clue you should really not stick your neck out with such an idiotic statement.


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## EURO_POWER (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (slappynuts)*

i was going to come back at you with a statement....but i am not here to argue with you. i am just saying that it is not as important (if running low boost) in 80-90 deg weather(not on a track) that you put an IC on your car.......you will see a diff with it.
I would personaly do it cause it will only help. I put one on my car. i am waiting to put standalone in my car......i would not do otherwise if kept the car at 8psi........
good luck with your cars guys....



_Modified by EURO_POWER at 1:15 AM 5-11-2005_


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## GTTechnics (Apr 2, 2003)

*Re: (slappynuts)*


_Quote, originally posted by *slappynuts* »_Heat is created by the process of compressing the air.It also has alot to do with compressor efficiency(superchargers are very poor efficiency compared to most turbos).This means they would benefit as much or probably more with an intercooler.One thing to keep in mind is that most supercharger cars spend alot less time at full boost.
If you don't have a clue you should really not stick your neck out with such an idiotic statement.

uhmmm, check your notes...what you say is true if the charger is a lysholm or a roots, but chances are 99% likely everyone here is talking about centrifugal.
you should really follow your own advice


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## slappynuts (Feb 27, 2005)

*Re: (GTTechnics)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTTechnics* »_uhmmm, check your notes...what you say is true if the charger is a lysholm or a roots, but chances are 99% likely everyone here is talking about centrifugal.
you should really follow your own advice









Your centrifugal supercharger has a peak efficiency of that equal to a turbo at its most efficient point(rpm).You cannot controll this point with a supercharger,but you can with a turbo.= less efficient.
Now the original point was that you need a intercooler for a turbo because of the heat,but not for the supercharger.Its still total BS


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## EURO_POWER (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: whos tuning their supercharged VR6's? (GTTechnics)*

I am running 12-13psi on a V-9....not sure of power as of yet, but i will let you guys know soon....
as for you running 15psi.....you should have an intercooler. you can achive 15psi by using the 2.63 pulley....if you don't like that size....call vortec and ask for the company that makes the pulleys for them. i called them to make a 2.2" for my V-9. 
keep us informed on your decisions


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## vr6ofpain (Feb 5, 2004)

Well I think the boost numbers are relative, or my VDO boost guage is inaccurate.
I have the AMS supplied pulley, 3.12", with a V1, and the C2 stage I software. I can always hit 11psi at about redline. One very cold night (dense air) back in the winter, I hit about 12.5psi @6900rpm.
Seems the cars make their power peak below that though, ~6500rpm.
Hey those with the VF stg 3....do you still run 10:1 compression?
I worry that being able to hit 11psi with stock compression (as my car is setup) is very risky. Especially with 91 octane ("CA $hit" premium)  fuel.


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