# Staggered set up possibly causing tire cupping...?



## Krissrock (Sep 10, 2005)

This is a question for all you out there that are running staggered set ups on your TT's. 

Have you noticed any issues of tire cupping in the rear? 

I had my staggered setup, lowerd on stock shocks...had a really bad cupping. I was told it was from the stock shocks..no prob. Got new tires and new Blistein Mono Tube Gas shocks, and an alignment of course. 
now about 1+ yrs later, i'm starting to see the cupping again. Not so drastic as before, but present. I'm assuming the shocks are still good...the tires aren't showing any abnormal wear, besides the cupping...

so i'm wondering if this is the just the set up. 

anyone else with staggered setup experience this or seen it before ? 

oh and i'm running 18x8.5 255/30 and 18x9.5 265/30 (if i remember correctly)


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## TTC2k5 (May 23, 2008)

Krissrock said:


> This is a question for all you out there that are running staggered set ups on your TT's.
> 
> Have you noticed any issues of tire cupping in the rear?
> 
> ...


i've been running a similar staggered set up for yrs and no cupping.

cheers


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## Neb (Jan 25, 2005)

Never had an issue with cupping running staggard setup. Have you actually seen your printouts on your alignment? And if you're lowered do you have kmac or adjustable tie bars?

Also same brand of tires for previous experience and now?


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Funny you say that. I've seen a few Porsches with staggered setups and cupping wear. It could be partially from that. I think some tire designs might make you more prone to cupping.


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## darrenbyrnes (Jan 4, 2005)

Neb said:


> Never had an issue with cupping running staggard setup. Have you actually seen your printouts on your alignment? And if you're lowered do you have kmac or adjustable tie bars?
> 
> Also same brand of tires for previous experience and now?


Depending on how much you're dropped, you may need either one set (lowers) or BOTH sets of adjustable rear control arms. I'd go with the "Mad Max" arms myself. I'm dropped about 1" and just have the lowers. No cupping here.

http://www.mcpii.com/MadMaxControlArm.html

Staggered - 225/40 - 18 front and 265/35-18 rear


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## TTC2k5 (May 23, 2008)

Another posible source could be the tires themselves. I had a cupping on a car with cheap tires once. Turned out the weight carring capacity wasn't high enough (that's part of why they were cheap) and as a result, cupping occured. 

So, what tires are you running? is there weight carrying capacity as high as the OEM tires?


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## Krissrock (Sep 10, 2005)

The first set of tires were yokohama's. But, as I stated, I was lowered with h&r springs and stock shocks with 85k mi's on em. 
So I got the gas shocks and are now running falken 452's. 
I don't have my alignment numbers, but ill be getting another in a week. And I do have adjustable arms in the rear (lower). I do plan on getting a set from max too.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

What's your definition of cupping? Or better yet any pictures?

Give us alignment specs too or it will be hard to keyboard diagnose with missing variables!


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## Neb (Jan 25, 2005)

Krissrock said:


> The first set of tires were yokohama's. But, as I stated, I was lowered with h&r springs and stock shocks with 85k mi's on em.
> So I got the gas shocks and are now running falken 452's.
> I don't have my alignment numbers, but ill be getting another in a week. And I do have adjustable arms in the rear (lower). I do plan on getting a set from max too.


I ran 452's with being as low as possible with no cupping. My guess is your alignment wasn't right. Get the numbers for sure next time to see if that's the problem.


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## Krissrock (Sep 10, 2005)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> What's your definition of cupping? Or better yet any pictures?
> 
> Give us alignment specs too or it will be hard to keyboard diagnose with missing variables!


I learned what cupping is the hard way. The yoko's were so badly cupped I hated driving the car cause the tires were so loud. Basically looked like banding/stripping of the tire where you can see some parts of the tire aren't touching the ground. 

I actually have some old pics from the Yoko's...Here's what they looked like. This is from 2009


















I'll get a pic of the Falken's tonight for ya...



Neb said:


> I ran 452's with being as low as possible with no cupping. My guess is your alignment wasn't right. Get the numbers for sure next time to see if that's the problem.


I think i may still have my old paper...i'll have to look for it when i get home.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Krissrock said:


> I learned what cupping is the hard way. The yoko's were so badly cupped I hated driving the car cause the tires were so loud. Basically looked like banding/stripping of the tire where you can see some parts of the tire aren't touching the ground.
> 
> I actually have some old pics from the Yoko's...Here's what they looked like. This is from 2009
> 
> ...


This all alignment related! Fix your alignment and you won't get these tire block misalignments anymore :beer:


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## Krissrock (Sep 10, 2005)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> This all alignment related! Fix your alignment and you won't get these tire block misalignments anymore :beer:


What kinda range of specs do you recommend I shoot for? I'm not running any crazy camber so I'm assuming its toe related.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

To you, I suggest zero front toe and 1/32" to 1/16" rear toe (rear camber should be no more than -1.3 for a street driven TT). :beer:

Just so you know, it is a combination of things that caused your "cupping". The negative camber supported by unoptimal toe contributed to have a specific portion of the thread blocks to carry the greatest percentage of the loads, which resulted in some blocks sinking.


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## Krissrock (Sep 10, 2005)

now with only lower control bars, how much toe adjustment can one achieve? 

here are pics of the current rear tires....


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## Neb (Jan 25, 2005)

enough to be close to spec that's for sure. I only have the lowers and I've never had problems like this.


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## murTTer (Jun 27, 2009)

cupping is due to toe. get your alignment print out and make sure they do it right. the lower you go the more you will have to compensate w/adjustable arms and such. and fwiw, I have the gruven arms and theyve been great, no issues at all.. some "others" posted on here I have seen in person and installed on a customers car and to be honest they looked like they were made in china and after a week of being installed the customer came back and they were leaking on the bushing side w/the zerk fitting. the "forked" end is also made too thick and not provided longer bolts with the arms to compensate so that leaves you having to buy new ctrl arm bolts if you want them installed properly. good luck.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

murTTer said:


> cupping is due to toe. get your alignment print out and make sure they do it right. the lower you go the more you will have to compensate w/adjustable arms and such. and fwiw, I have the gruven arms and theyve been great, no issues at all.. some "others" posted on here I have seen in person and installed on a customers car and to be honest they looked like they were made in china and after a week of being installed the customer came back and they were leaking on the bushing side w/the zerk fitting. the "forked" end is also made too thick and not provided longer bolts with the arms to compensate so that leaves you having to buy new ctrl arm bolts if you want them installed properly. good luck.


Maybe "some shops" in Berkeley should stick to doing air rides because there are people with brain in this community:

1) excess grease from pre-packed parts (bushing in this case) should seep out! It is an indication that the grease made its way through the friction surfaces and doing its job :beer:

2) It would help for some shops to know that there are outer stretch bolts that are actually 5 mm 
longer than the inners. Mismatching them would obviously make the bolt appear "short" on the outside.

To some people, what you see as "made too thick" is extra structural rigidity in the highest stress point, but I'm sure that means nothing to "some". What really amuses me is that for the first time I see "China" and too thick/rigid used in the same sentence. :wave:

You sure seems to know your suspension nowadays for a tech that was asking for camber angle help to use in his own car not too long ago!


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## murTTer (Jun 27, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Maybe "some shops" in Berkeley should stick to doing air rides because there are people with brain in this community:
> 
> 1) excess grease from pre-packed parts (bushing in this case) should seep out! It is an indication that the grease made its way through the friction surfaces and doing its job :beer:
> 
> ...


 since you seem to know me so well, pm me and lets meet up some time.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

murTTer said:


> since you seem to know me so well, pm me and lets meet up some time.


 What happened, did the truth hurt? Yeah, it usually does but I'm sure you'll find plenty of moral support at the shop after bolting some bags! When you need real suspension support and knowledge in the "shop", you can PM me! :wave:


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## Krissrock (Sep 10, 2005)

ahh good ol' tex


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