# think i'll stick to man recommended oils.



## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

how is it that many who post here know more than the engineers at vw, bmw, mb and porche? all the 502/505 oils i've seen are at least bmw and mb certified also. we can all have our opinion, but i'll stick with the manufacturer rather than some professing to be an expert here.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

It's ok if you don't understand the subject well enough to realize what's involved in selecting oils that perform, not as well as, but BETTER than the meager selection of VW spec oils we get in the USA. 

It really doesn't take an "engineer" to interpret a few charts and read a few elemental analysis. The "specs" are clearly defined and some parameters aren't very meaningful to many drivers, like cold-cranking and mpg stipulations.

http://www.lubrizol.com/EuropeanEngineOils/RelativePerformanceToolIntro.html

Wait, somehow unspeced oil works perfectly, even the thin stuff, omg!!!































Yeah, that VW 502 oil is UNBEATABLE!!!













It's not like engines sludge or cam followers grind to dust on VW spec oils...










http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1895140&page=all










So, if your best analysis is "just because", there's really no point in posting here.


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*somebody does'nt understand*

i'm just not sure its me. blackstone reports are wonderful, i guess, they just don't sell me. vw, bmw and mb are fairly reputable manufacturers, if they say a product is good, it's fine by me. if some guy who should be greasng axles on carts in pa. says something else, oh well.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

So you don't understand Tribology, you should have just said so.


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*what qualifies you as an expert*

exactly how did you gain your expertise? what are your qualifications? why should i place your oppinion ahead of the manufacturers recommendations? just thought i'd ask


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*and by the way*

are you sure all those hpfp lifters wear because of inferior oil or could it be a manufacturing flaw. they don't look to be worn out anyway, they are punched out. as for the picture of the aeb sludge, isn't that when vw started specifying synthetic oil? i've got a passat with 125k and an awp jetta with 160k on 502 oil, no problems, no sludge. my bpy 06 jetta has 70k nad although i changed the lifter at 62k it was fine. again with 502 oil.


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

You'll note that the forum "experts" have zero ACEA A3/B4 or VW 502 or 505.01 oil test sequence data to support their baseless beliefs.

This is typical of the technically challenged. A $25 UOA is no substitute for hundreds of thousands of dollars of proper oil sequence testing which takes months to conduct. The "expert" advice is a typical example of people not knowing what they don't know and not wanting to be confused by facts that differ with their unsubstantiated beliefs.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

Bzzt. 

Mega-fail.

If you think only a spec oil can work, you are wrong.


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*you're jerk!!!!!!!!!!!!*

what more can be said. you offer nothing to support your expertise. if someone has a different take on things you go bzzt. many non spec oils may be great, i just think i'll go with vw, bmw and mb before i take your word. and oh, you need a filter change.


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

AudiJunkie-

You'll never know what oils are appropriate unless you run the full VW 502, 505.01, etc. oil test sequence. When the boutique oils can pass these tests, then we'll know they are acceptable to use in specific VW engine families. Until then it's just your baseless assertions and mis-use of a UOA test to try and convince yourself that you technically know more than you actually do about these oils.


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## ennui_delphian (Mar 31, 2007)

Why does this thread exist?


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## jmj (Feb 6, 2001)

ennui_delphian said:


> Why does this thread exist?


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

AudiJunkie said:


> It's not like engines sludge or cam followers grind to dust on VW spec oils...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The longitudinal 1.8T sludge are contributed to:
1. Foremost, using a conventional 5w30 oil instead of 502.00
2. Design flaw of a reduced crankcase capacity.

The HPFP cam follower wear is due to a poor design & material selection. Even with the best oils, the follower will inevitably wear because it is a tappet style follower.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

Umm, you realize I employed the rhetorical device of sarcasm in that post...?



gmikel said:


> what more can be said. you offer nothing to support your expertise. if someone has a different take on things you go bzzt. many non spec oils may be great, i just think i'll go with vw, bmw and mb before i take your word. and oh, you need a filter change.


One more time: THAT'S BECAUSE YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE SUBJECT WELL ENOUGH FORM A RELIABLE OPINION.

lol, I don't give a **** what you use.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

Here's some theraputic literature for those who clearly need help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

:facepalm:


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## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

i don't care what anybody says....this thread kicks ass:laugh:


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## Deadzero2005 (Apr 13, 2006)

harmankardon35 said:


> i don't care what anybody says....this thread kicks ass:laugh:



X2 opcorn:


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

Only VW engineers can anoint an oil as suitable, what a laugh. VW 502 was issued in 1998, long before my engine was conceived. Funny how it just worked out how this 12 year old spec is suitable for my new high-tech engine, but a new high-tech oil like Edge _isn't._ Could it be that any high quality oil will work too? Could be. 

So far we heard ZERO technical reasons what a solid product in the correct visc, like Rotella Synth or Mobil 1 TDT 5w-40 will not work. The lab work I've presented indicates otherwise, but some people still think their tortured logic and false assumptions "logically" proves otherwise. Where are the excess wear metals in the UOAs? Where is the compromised TBN? Exactly what parameters cannot be met by the 5w-40s I mentioned or other oils that actually carry the generic ACEA A3 spec?

Compare A3 and VW 502 and get back to me.

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/lubrizol/EOACEA2009/RPTOOL2010Dep/rp/pc/index.html


See, if you know what the spec entails, you can then go ahead and further refine your oil choice with the spec parameters in mind. I use thin oil, I have my reasons, and it works.


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*your not worth the effort*



AudiJunkie said:


> Only VW engineers can anoint an oil as suitable, what a laugh. VW 502 was issued in 1998, long before my engine was conceived. Funny how it just worked out how this 12 year old spec is suitable for my new high-tech engine, but a new high-tech oil like Edge _isn't._ Could it be that any high quality oil will work too? Could be.
> 
> So far we heard ZERO technical reasons what a solid product in the correct visc, like Rotella Synth or Mobil 1 TDT 5w-40 will not work. The lab work I've presented indicates otherwise, but some people still think their tortured logic and false assumptions "logically" proves otherwise. Where are the excess wear metals in the UOAs? Where is the compromised TBN? Exactly what parameters cannot be met by the 5w-40s I mentioned or other oils that actually carry the generic ACEA A3 spec?
> 
> ...


i understand well enough to know i don't know everything. i understand well enough to know you don't understand enough to know you don't know everything. i understand enough not to take some obnoxious self appointed anonimous experts word over the manufacturers. i understand enough to know when i asked what your qualifications were i got no answer.


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## ennui_delphian (Mar 31, 2007)

I just gotta say, which handles more recalls and spends a ton more money fixing their problems. "Anonymous Experts" or the manufacturer...


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*vw for sure*



ennui_delphian said:


> I just gotta say, which handles more recalls and spends a ton more money fixing their problems. "Anonymous Experts" or the manufacturer...


 some anononymos expert can't be held for a failure


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## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

just for the record, the VAG 502.00 (or any rating) is automotive politics...it simply does NOT reflect the quality of the oil or how well it will preform, it basically means that a particular oil company paid VAG huge $$ and it squeaked by VAG's mundane & outdated testing procedure so that people who dont care to research otherwise will "stick to the manufacturers recommended oil" 

like him or hate him the oil analysis charts speak volumes as to how "other" oils preform in a VAG engine:thumbup:


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

harmankardon35 said:


> just for the record, the VAG 502.00 (or any rating) is automotive politics...it simply does NOT reflect the quality of the oil or how well it will preform, it basically means that a particular oil company paid VAG huge $$ and it squeaked by VAG's mundane & outdated testing procedure so that people who dont care to research otherwise will "stick to the manufacturers recommended oil"


 :beer:


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## ennui_delphian (Mar 31, 2007)

gmikel said:


> some anononymos expert can't be held for a failure


 Blackstone is an oil testing facility, they are the third party that doesn't get money from oil or manufacturers to come up with their numbers. The oil companies would be to blame if the stuff instantly turned to water.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

AudiJunkie said:


> Exactly what VW 502 parameters cannot be met by the 5w-40s I mentioned or other oils that actually carry the generic ACEA A3 spec?
> 
> Compare A3 and VW 502 and get back to me.
> 
> http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/lubrizol/EOACEA2009/RPTOOL2010Dep/rp/pc/index.html


 Porsche seemed to thing a vast number of grades will work when they published this reference chart... 











Oh yeah, explain this graph while you're at it...


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*if you really believe that*



harmankardon35 said:


> just for the record, the VAG 502.00 (or any rating) is automotive politics...it simply does NOT reflect the quality of the oil or how well it will preform, it basically means that a particular oil company paid VAG huge $$ and it squeaked by VAG's mundane & outdated testing procedure so that people who dont care to research otherwise will "stick to the manufacturers recommended oil"
> 
> like him or hate him the oil analysis charts speak volumes as to how "other" oils preform in a VAG engine:thumbup:


 somehow i think there is more involved than an exchange of money and its not just vw, bmw, mb and porche all have similar spec oils, most carry all 4. the japanese and american manufactures all have specs also. can't believe it's just money. 

as for uoa's, if an oil did not have a good detergent pack that kept the contaminants in suspension would you still use it? it would show almost no wear, as everything would be on the bottom of the pan. uoa are great for what they're intended for, it's just not what some here think it is.


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*all ,vw ,bmw, mb and porche oils are a3 turkey*



AudiJunkie said:


> Porsche seemed to thing a vast number of grades will work when they published this reference chart...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 and by the way some porchemb, bmw and vw spec oils have no zddp.


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## TechMeister (Jan 7, 2008)

harmankardon35 said:


> just for the record, the VAG 502.00 (or any rating) is automotive politics...it simply does NOT reflect the quality of the oil or how well it will preform, it basically means that a particular oil company paid VAG huge $$ and it squeaked by VAG's mundane & outdated testing procedure so that people who dont care to research otherwise will "stick to the manufacturers recommended oil"
> 
> like him or hate him the oil analysis charts speak volumes as to how "other" oils preform in a VAG engine:thumbup:


 Posting this totally inaccurate, baseless rubbish is a disservice to all who want accurate technical info. concerning engine oils. 

For the record VW tests oil and only approves the oils that pass their specific test criteria. In addition oil suppliers must sign an agreement to not alter the formulation without the new proposed formula being tested and confirmed to meet all of VW's oil test criteria. After testing and approval VW actually goes out in the marketplace and randomly purchases these approved oils and tests them again. Every two years the oil must be re-certified to maintain it's approval. 

VW does this to protect it's customers from inferior oils that can damage their engines and unscrupulous hucksters who prey on naive consumers with ad hype. The boutique and snake oil suppliers who talk crap need to put their money where there mouth is and have their oils independently tested by VW. The boutique oil boys already know their oils won't pass and that's why none of them have VW oil certification nor will they submit their products for certification.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

Fantasy. :screwy: 















gmikel said:


> as for uoa's, if an oil did not have a good detergent pack that kept the contaminants in suspension would you still use it? it would show almost no wear, as everything would be on the bottom of the pan. uoa are great for what they're intended for, it's just not what some here think it is.


 
There is plenty of testing that involves deposits for an oil to carry basic API certs, older GM certs and the new Dexos certs. ACEA A3 and A5 are common for off-the-shelf oils (no VW spec), compare those certs to VW 502 and get back to me. 

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/lubrizol/EOACEA2009/RPTOOL2010Dep/rp/pc/index.html 

Also UOAs have a tell for deposits, the level of insolubles. 

You might try reading up *before* thinking about an issue, rather than the other way around.


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## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

i dont think an underdog oil company is going to pay and have a rating for nissan, ford, mazda,toyota, mitsuibishi, GM, chrysler, honda, volvo, subaru etc etc etc... 

agreed, however on the slimy companies like lucas and STP that sell bottled vegetable oil and market it as a miracle.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

Dexos is actually a pretty weak spec, but should bring Euro and API specs into line with all mfgs, short of extended drains.... 


It's listed under GM or Opel.... 

http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/lubrizol/EOACEA2009/RPTOOL2010Dep/rp/pc/index.html


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*you missed the point*



AudiJunkie said:


> Fantasy. :screwy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 but its not unusual for you to go on a tangent, complete with graphs and charts of course. what would a post from you be without a blackstone report, anyway?


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## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

harmankardon35 said:


> i dont think an underdog oil company is going to pay and have a rating for nissan, ford, mazda,toyota, mitsuibishi, GM, chrysler, honda, volvo, subaru etc etc etc...


 :thumbup:


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

rhouse181 said:


> :thumbup:


 That's why we have the standards of generic specs that the mfgs reference all combined from API, ISLAC and ACEA. There are indeed mfg specs from many the marques you mentioned, but they "piggyback" on the API and ISLAC spec. I guess it's the same with Euros. That is, once you have a generic spec from a "council", the mfg specs fall away as being superfluous, they are minimum standards. Like the GM 4718M for Corvettes. Once you have an oil that performs above (or at) that level, it's irrelevant if it has the spec on the label, it's a MINIMUM requirement. It is also there as an independent standard for the company, for legal reasons and if the governing council, goes away. ..like API might. Dexos is a big move to isolate the lame API and others from the mfg, swinging the pendulum the other way. 

Extended drains by the oem mfg are the one reasons to use AT LEAST a spec oil....but who wants to do 10k changes in a new VW anyway? I do not. :screwy: 

Back to the specs, say, German Syntec in a Corvette...does it matter if this German oil submitted for Corvette spec?!? The guy I learned of German Syntec from, Patman, first used it in his LS-whatever and got UOAs....it worked great. :thumbup: Another Corvette friend used Mobil 1 5w-30 (a GM 4718M oil that is paid to be factory-fill!) in his car and the UOA was a COMPLETE disaster. :thumbdown: 

...but I guess we are to believe the mantra that "UOAs don't tell us anything" because we saw it repeated out-of-context somewhere on the internet.  




gmikel said:


> but its not unusual for you to go on a tangent, complete with graphs and charts of course. what would a post from you be without a blackstone report, anyway?


 So, you have nothing? What a shock!  




AudiJunkie said:


> So far we heard ZERO technical reasons what a solid product in the correct visc, like Rotella Synth or Mobil 1 TDT 5w-40 will not work. Where are the excess wear metals in the UOAs? Where is the compromised TBN? Exactly what parameters cannot be met by the 5w-40s I mentioned or other oils that actually carry the generic ACEA A3 spec?
> 
> Compare A3 and VW 502 and get back to me.
> 
> http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/lubrizol/EOACEA2009/RPTOOL2010Dep/rp/pc/index.html


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*audijunker*

my uncle's 3rd cousin's best friend says you're full of vinager and used to work as a tech at jiffy lube and that's your qualification. that's at least as reliable as your word. sorry there are no blackstone graphs for this.


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*is it tribology or chemistry?*



AudiJunkie said:


> So you don't understand Tribology, you should have just said so.


 lubricants are complex chemical formulations, that's chemistry.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

Rock on dipsh|t. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribology


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

gmikel said:


> my uncle's 3rd cousin's best friend says you're full of vinager and used to work as a tech at jiffy lube and that's your qualification. that's at least as reliable as your word. sorry there are no blackstone graphs for this.


 The fact that you don't know who I am speaks volumes about your level of knowledge. :facepalm:


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*someone special?*



AudiJunkie said:


> The fact that you don't know who I am speaks volumes about your level of knowledge. :facepalm:


 or at least you think so.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

AudiJunkie said:


> You might try reading up *before* thinking about an issue, rather than the other way around.


 :facepalm:


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*your long strand polymers are a little short*

and your surface tension is weak


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

Bite me.


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## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*is that you*



AudiJunkie said:


> Bite me.


 funny you chose to depict yourself in an orange diaper


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## ryan mills (May 3, 2002)

^Probably the manliest man on the internet right there, well next to Chuck Norris, of course. Not to drift too far off topic..... Who makes BMW's oil? The damn manual states I have to use BMW stuff, or Mobil 1 0W-40, yet the oil cap states "BMW recommends Castrol", like the VW's.


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## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

The BMW 5w-30 for dealer service is Castrol LongTec. Factory-fill could be different. 

I've been pimping the Mobil 1 High Miles oils for Euro cars, if you can live with generic ACEA specs, it's one of the best products made for your BMW, and it's cheaper w/o the BMW spec. 

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_High_Mileage_10W-30.aspx


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