# At a loss...soft brake pedal/poor braking, replaced/tried everything I can think of.



## radoboy (Oct 2, 2000)

I'm about to run my corrado into the ocean....
This car has never had the best brakes but it would at least lock the tires up when needed...I recently took her off the road for 3 months for some engine work and just got her running again. Took her for a drive and when I attempted a panic stop, she just slowly coasted to a stop. Pedal is soft, couldn't even lock the tires up.
If I pump the brakes up with the car off, they get a bit hard but still not like they should be. When I turn the car on the pedal becomes much softer, and while it does have resistance it feels like I can push the pedal to the floor with a tad bit of effort. Pumping a few times does little to help pedal firmness when the car is running.
I've figured it would the MC so I went out, bought a new MC, replaced it, power bled and still the same problem. I figured since the pedal gets a good bit of pedal feel with the car off, and when the car is turned on it gets very soft, that it had to be the booster. So I went out, bought a remanned booster, new 22mm master cyl, power bled and the same thing.
I also tried another rear prop valve, still soft. I replaced the booster check valve still soft. I've inspected the calipers and the guide pins look free and are not locked up.
Over the last year I have replaced the rear calipers, SS brake lines, master cylinder(a few times during trouble shooting), booster(once I tried another used one, and today I tried a new one), clutch master and slave are fairly new, rear prop valve, manual bled and power bled NUMEROUS times. Pads are Hawk HPS, rotors are slotted, SS lines as I mentioned. Nothing I try gets the brakes where they need to be.
I've checked all connections for leaks and see nothing. 
Open to any and all suggestions. Thanks.



_Modified by radoboy at 5:06 PM 12-23-2006_


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## wjbski (Feb 1, 2003)

*Re: At a loss...soft brake pedal/poor braking, replaced/tried everything I can think of. (radoboy)*

does your 'Raddo have ABS? If so, there's a different bleeding procedure for the rear brakes, but it sounds like you have air in the rear calipers. I've fought with these damn things too many times.


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## radoboy (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: At a loss...soft brake pedal/poor braking, replaced/tried everything I can think of. (wjbski)*

It's a non ABS car. I'm kinda leaning towards the rears at this point as well...yesterday I swapped some different front calipers, re-bled and have the same issues. So only thing left on this car that I haven't tried over the last 2 days is the rear calipers...I'll report back when I get this solved







.
Thanks.


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## rccar (Jul 21, 2006)

*Re: At a loss...soft brake pedal/poor braking, replaced/tried everything I can think of. (radoboy)*

*"I have replaced the rear calipers, SS brake lines" 
*
I am not sure what is the ss brake line,but i suggest you check all brake soft pipeline especially front wheel.
My car had the almost same fault like yours,but after i replace two front brake soft pipeline yesterday,the problem puzzle me about 3 years had been solved. 


_Modified by rccar at 5:42 AM 12-28-2006_


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## radoboy (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: At a loss...soft brake pedal/poor braking, replaced/tried everything I can think of. (rccar)*

By SS brake lines I am referring to stainless steel brake lines. I have replaced all 6 soft lines on the car with stainless steel (SS) brake lines. About an hour ago I went ahead and replaced the rear calipers and guide pins as well as new rear stainless steel lines since I had some laying around. Same problem still exists. I can lock the wheels up if I push the pedal down far enough, but the pedal is still very soft and I don't feel I can accurately modulate the brakes due to the soft pedal. My mk2 brakes feel great (ABS corrado VR6 setup) but the brakes I have on my G60 corrado just suck in comparison lol.
Any other help is greatly appreciated.


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## rccar (Jul 21, 2006)

May be you can adjust hand brake line,shorten the clearance between rear caliper and brake pads.


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## Mossman (Sep 7, 2003)

*Re: (rccar)*

I would crack all the bleeders open, do a slow gravity bleed and try to get all new fluid in there. Have you been filling it from the same bottle of brake fluid every time maybe? I've heard if you leave the cap off brake fluid absorbs moisture from the air and gets bad. Use some brand new super blue and do it up.
If everything is new and the fluid is good and well bled then damn.....new car time I guess. I'll buy the C, sounds like you take good care of her


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## radoboy (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (Mossman)*

Thanks for the tip..I'll try anything at this point. The car started off with brand new super blue. We still had a soft pedal after several brand new cans of super blue so we went with brand new DOT 4 of a different color. We've bled it at least 10 times and all of the super blue is out (bleeders flowing transparent brake fluid instead of the super blue). LOL yeah sounds like it is time for a new car...just too much invested into this one to let go just yet.
Open to any other suggestions. The e-brake cables are pretty tight, very slight pull of the handle engages the e-brake and they are self adjusting rear calipers.
Thnx


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## bengone1 (Jun 17, 2003)

*Re: (radoboy)*

Just to cover a stupid problem. Is there good flow from the rear calipers during bleeding? Are you bleeding with the handbrake on or off?
If those two answers are yes and off. I would remove the right rear caliper from its mounts invert it by the brake line and restrict the piston movement with a C-clamp. then re-bleed. Reinstall and repeat for left rear. All rear calipers bolt on the same but the bleed screw is in a different orientation for different makes. You may have eliminated one problem but made another with caliper swapping. Getting the bleed screw in the best location cured my problems. Good Luck! 
To save some money recycle the clean brake fluid back through


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## radoboy (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (bengone1)*

Thnx for the suggestions. Yes there is good flow from the rears when bleeding...I am holding the rear prob valve and the fluid has a good flow from it. Rear calipers are from a 93 VR6 corrado and the bleeder screws are located at the top on each caliper but I will definitely try your method. Yes the e-brake is off during bleeding. Thanks again.


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## Jim Roy (Apr 12, 2006)

*Re: (radoboy)*

I had a 91 Peugeot MI-16 that used the same rear calipers as ?? Volkswagen. Though the bleed screw was towards the top, when the caliper was on the car it held air that wouldn't bleed. The only way to bleed it was to mechanically disconnect the caliper leaving the hose connected, put a block of wood or something between the pads (or use a c-clamp as bengone1 says) thats the same thickness as the rotor to keep the piston from going too far, and hold the caliper so the bleed screw was at the high point. 
Thankfully when I bought my calipers the guy at the dealer clued me in to that procedure.


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## radoboy (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (Jim Roy)*

Thanks for the tips. I will definitely try this asap.


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## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (radoboy)*

i have the same issue, but NONE Of my wheels will lock.
i would think that if my rears wouldnt bleed correctly, the fronts should still lock. 
i have a 95 Golf Sport
HELP me by helping the original poster. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## bengone1 (Jun 17, 2003)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*

No VWs have a diagonal brake system the right rear is part of the same master cylinder chamber and the left front. and vise versa. So air in back means air in front.


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## radoboy (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: At a loss...soft brake pedal/poor braking, replaced/tried everything I can think of. (radoboy)*

Tonight I went out and bought (4) 4" C-clamps, removed each caliper from the carrier and compressed the pistons all the way in on each corner (for the rears you have to use the special tool to compress and then install the C-clamp). After that I had a friend pump the brakes while we manually bled each corner 2 (starting from rear pass, rear drivers, front pass, then front drivers). On the rears I zip tied the rear prob valve closed/open whatever







. For each one I rotated the caliper so the bleeder screw was perfectly straight and pointing towards the sky (if that makes sense). After that I installed each caliper back on its carrier, then pumped the brakes like 40 times to press the pistons back out to the pads. Pedal felt great.
Good news is the pedal feels perfect when the car is off. When I turn the car on it gets softer but feels a bit better than before. Driving around I can definitely feel an improvement in braking...not perfect but getting closer. I am going to try a thorough manual bleed asap, and possibly remove at least the rear calipers again using C-clamps.
Like I said not fixed yet, but it definitely feels better. I'll sleep on it and see how it feels after my drive to work tomorrow.


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## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

*Re: At a loss...soft brake pedal/poor braking, replaced/tried everything I can think of. (radoboy)*

could it be one of the calipers is seized?.. I just ran into this problem while doing my front brakes last night...... how do you check for that?


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## radoboy (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: At a loss...soft brake pedal/poor braking, replaced/tried everything I can think of. (ricardo)*

I'm not sure on that...at this point anything is possible...I don't think it is/was a seized caliper in my case because I changed all 4 calipers for different ones and had the same problem. I am thinking air is somehow stuck in the lines...brakes feel nice today although still not perfect...more bleeding tonight







.


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## Jim Roy (Apr 12, 2006)

*Re: At a loss...soft brake pedal/poor braking, replaced/tried everything I can think of. (radoboy)*

Some master cylinders require bench bleeding before installation as an aid to getting air out of the system. Did you get instructions about this with your new master cylinders? Google turns up lots of info re: bench bleeding.


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## radoboy (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: At a loss...soft brake pedal/poor braking, replaced/tried everything I can think of. (Jim Roy)*

Thanks for the tip. We did something very similar to this but with the master mounted to the car....I gently pumped the master while my friend cracked each of the 4 lines to allow the cylinder to fill with fresh fluid from the reservoir, as well as get air out of the master before bleeding the car.


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## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: At a loss...soft brake pedal/poor braking, replaced/tried everything I can think of. (radoboy)*

i just ordered my new master cyl. i should get it by tuesday.
hopefully wednesday i can install it, but when i do, im gonna put the reservior on and fill it, then pump the fluid out all 4 holes into a bucket to help bleed it.
then i'll install it.


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## MA_GLI_18t (Dec 27, 2006)

*Re: At a loss...soft brake pedal/poor braking, replaced/tried everything I can think of. (radoboy)*

The pedal gets softer when the car is running because the brakes are "power-assist" the booster uses engine vacuum to assist in braking force. When you shut the car off and pump the brakes there is vaccum stored in the booster, but only enough for a few pumps. So as you pump the brakes with the engine not running the pedal will feel more and more firm with every pump.


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## radoboy (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: At a loss...soft brake pedal/poor braking, replaced/tried every ... (MA_GLI_18t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MA_GLI_18t* »_The pedal gets softer when the car is running because the brakes are "power-assist" the booster uses engine vacuum to assist in braking force. When you shut the car off and pump the brakes there is vaccum stored in the booster, but only enough for a few pumps. So as you pump the brakes with the engine not running the pedal will feel more and more firm with every pump.

Thanks I am aware of that...but what is happening is that the pedal feels like it should with the car off, and when on it feels too soft..as in softer than it should with the car running. The pedal when running is getting better but I haven't had time to bleed some more. I am fairly certain some air is trapped somewhere and the soft pedal is amplified by the power assist when running. I can get in my mk2, turn the car on, and the pedal feels great. Firm and near the start of pedal travel I can feel the brakes. In the corrado I am having problems with, the pedal feels soft and it takes a good bit of travel before you can 'feel' the brakes. Thanks for the info though.


_Modified by radoboy at 3:18 PM 1-9-2007_


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## IJM (Jul 30, 2001)

*Re: At a loss...soft brake pedal/poor braking, replaced/tried every ... (radoboy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *radoboy* »_
Thanks I am aware of that...but what is happening is that the pedal feels like it should with the car off, and when on it feels too soft..as in softer than it should with the car running. The pedal when running is getting better but I haven't had time to bleed some more. I am fairly certain some air is trapped somewhere and the soft pedal is amplified by the power assist when running. I can get in my mk2, turn the car on, and the pedal feels great. Firm and near the start of pedal travel I can feel the brakes. *In the corrado I am having problems with, the pedal feels soft and it takes a good bit of travel before you can 'feel' the brakes.* Thanks for the info though.

I often run into the same issue with my Mk4. New pads seem to help (bleeding doesn't), but it appears that's not your issue.


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## radoboy (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: At a loss...soft brake pedal/poor braking, replaced/tried every ... (IJM)*


_Quote, originally posted by *IJM* »_
I often run into the same issue with my Mk4. New pads seem to help (bleeding doesn't), but it appears that's not your issue.

Thanks for the input...The rear pads where replaced a little while ago with some Hawk HPS pads...I am going to manually bleed some more this weekend and will report back. Like I said I was at a loss and the only thing to help even a little bit was manually bleeding with all calipers fully compressed with C-clamps. Thnx to everyone for their suggestions.


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