# Megasquirt ruins familes.



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Or it might in this case...just ordered my MS3 from DIY, sigh.

Prof315, Need_A_VR6, ValveCoverGasket...I hold all of you personally responsible for making me want to remove my carbs and experiment with EFI again. This time though, I'll be saving my carbs for when I get too frustrated with Megasquirt .

Going simple: 8v or 16v, have both. 14b turbo, log manifold, non-intercooled, low boost. I want to try it out on the automatic that's in the car now.


----------



## pigryder (Mar 6, 2009)

Its a sad day


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

No worries, I'm keeping my carbs, and usually swap back and forth a couple times every year . I get bored fast, so after a few months on EFI, I'll get the hankering for carbs again, and come back. I've done it a few times since the Carb Diet thread started, lol.

Trust me, I'm not quitting carbs...just diversifying my interests .


----------



## -RalleyTuned- (Nov 17, 2008)

AH HA!!!!


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Quiet you  :laugh:.
lol...I can't help it. I love tuning, no matter if it's the way real men used to do it, or the new fangled fancypants stuff. MS3 seems ALMOST good enough to not have to mess with constantly in regards to firmware updates, code variants, etc etc, so I figured I'd give it a try. Been through MS1 and 2, might as well try 3 . The onboard SD card logging makes it worth it, since I despise travelling with a laptop in the car constantly. Native USB support is great too.


----------



## -RalleyTuned- (Nov 17, 2008)

I had to, you know I did 

I know what you mean about the older versions, luckily at this point we have finally hit a "stale" point in the ms1/2 where there isn't a new code every 3 months :laugh:

I do wish you good luck with ms3, cause it really is a very powerfull system once you get the hang of it. Don't worry though, i'm starting to build cis cars again


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Ugh...CIS is the devil in a lamb disguise. "It's simple, high pressure one side, low pressure the other side...what could go wrong?!"

I'm probably never going to exploit the full potential of the MS3, but it's the closest to 'real' standalone (namely a product that has already been through it's design phase and already comes complete) that MS has ever been. If I want a feature, I don't want to wait for someone to figure out how to write the code, implement the changes to the board, figure out how to integrate that into the tuning software, etc. So far, even if it's still pretty raw, MS3 has everything I could possibly want, right from the get-go. 

Fingers crossed I don't eat my words .


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

:laugh:

you know... id have figured if you were constantly going back and forth between EFI and carbs that youd at least be swapping to carbs in the summer... then suddenly finding your way back to EFI for those winter months where it might be easier to get it fired up in the morning


also, welcome back.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

There's usually 4-5' of snow here in the winter. The car stays in the garage until it melts . I've only got 6 months of warmth to play with, lol.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

About time! As always, we're here to help.


----------



## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

whatever gets the car going so you progress further on with the 010.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

That part is staying, and I've been driving it quite a bit lately. It's holding up great, but needs to have the lack of low-end torque addressed. I was going to swap to a single carb, but figured I might as well throw the turbo kit back on, since I found another turbo for cheap . Low boost though, I don't want to push my luck any further than I have to :laugh:.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> About time! As always, we're here to help.


X2 :thumbup: :beer:. 

My best friend and I went to the Megameet last weekend at Road Atlanta in our MS3/3X'd Corrados. What a BLAST!!!!!!

Nothing beats talking about tuning techniques with the guys that wrote the firmware. Or having James Murray (jsmcortina on the MSExtra forums) do bug fixes for you on the spot! 

We both got about 30 mpg with average speeds both ways of nearly 80 mph and that included gas/food stops and piss breaks.

We also got to take both cars on the track for a couple of parade laps (yeah right ), nothing like being able to 4 wheel drift your turbo car through corners legally.

And last but hardly least we got a look at one of the new Borg Warner EFR Series turbos up close and personal. I even got a ride in the car it was attached to.... WOW!!!!!!


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

need_a_VR6 said:


> About time! As always, we're here to help.


im mostly just here to argue and mislead. :beer:


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> im mostly just here to argue and mislead. :beer:


There is always that one guy... HA!

Jeff glad to hear things went well, hopefully we can catch up next year.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> There is always that one guy... HA!
> 
> Jeff glad to hear things went well, hopefully we can catch up next year.


Yeah I've decided that I will attend all future megameets on the east coast south of the Mason/Dixon line.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Oh don't make it a north/south thing, I'm only about 2mi across the line!


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Oh don't make it a north/south thing, I'm only about 2mi across the line!


I hear you but my leash does have it's limits


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

So I still want to say you all suck .

I love dealing with DIY though. I bought through their webstore with no email contact prior, and included a question in my order. 5 minutes later I had a response to my question, 3 minutes after that I had "Your order is being processed", and 3 minutes after that I had my tracking # . It should be here early next week, since it's already at the main processing area in Mississauga (the next big stop after customs). I'm 5 hours from there, so probably tuesday.

Spent a few days reworking an old turbo kit I made last year, staying counterflow .


----------



## VenaGTi (Mar 19, 2006)

paging mr. arnold....


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

It's in 
Now...stay N/A to drive the car this summer, or attempt to boost the car with a zero budget for parts (head gaskets, etc)? Decisions decisions .


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

B4S said:


> It's in
> Now...stay N/A to drive the car this summer, or attempt to boost the car with a zero budget for parts (head gaskets, etc)? Decisions decisions .


An 8V at 10 to 1 or lower on 6 or 7 psi non intercooled boost should survive just fine. Just keep the timing very conservative under boost (- 2 to 3 degrees per psi). It'll still be a hoot to drive. TRUST ME


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Oh I know, been there done that. My first boosted setup ever was an ABA at 11psi on SDS with stock compression. 2000 was a fun year . I have to take the head off to install the turbo manifold due to the starter being in the way (automatic). I built the kit to fit a counterflow head, and have to tighten some of the bolts on the underside from underneath (a log manifold that's angled down). If I've got the head off, might as well stack some gaskets (and for some dumb reason the G60 MLS gaskets are more $$ than the ABA ones  ), which also means head studs/bolts.

So, it's a choice between simply reassembling the N/A motor with EFI, or waiting for boost.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

B4S said:


> Oh I know, been there done that. My first boosted setup ever was an ABA at 11psi on SDS with stock compression. 2000 was a fun year . I have to take the head off to install the turbo manifold due to the starter being in the way (automatic). I built the kit to fit a counterflow head, and have to tighten some of the bolts on the underside from underneath (a log manifold that's angled down). If I've got the head off, might as well stack some gaskets (and for some dumb reason the G60 MLS gaskets are more $$ than the ABA ones  ), which also means head studs/bolts.
> 
> So, it's a choice between simply reassembling the N/A motor with EFI, or waiting for boost.


Then by all means get it up and going. That way when you DO go boosted you should have a halfway decent N/A tune to work from, kinda what I did with the 'rado. First it was MS2 on the ABA then MS3 (but not sequential) on the ABA and finally MS3/3X and full sequential on the 20/20T.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I think that's what I'm going to do, at least then I can drive the car, which is what I usually miss out on in the summer. I've got everything I need, and the car is currently running Megajolt, so the EDIS is already set up and working. I'll mount the MS3 where the Megajolt box is and pirate it's power/ground/PIP/SAW wires . The wideband is already grounded at the same point as the MJ, so it makes for a simple (and accurate) integration .

Might even be running this weekend...time will tell.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Screw it, my tab at the shop will just get higher, lol. G60 MLS gasket (why not), fuel pump, 100amp GM alternator (always wanted to retrofit one), head bolts (studs mean the head can't come on and off with the turbo attached), and some miscellaneous frippery are all on the way. Depending on the boost level, I may have to get another garrett can, the one I retrofitted might be the 12-14psi one. I really only want 6-8 until I'm sure the turbine shaft in the automatic won't snap on me.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

:thumbup: :beer: Turbonium= GOOD!


----------



## fourthchirpin (Nov 19, 2004)

welcome to the fams lol


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Ok, I have always hated the megamanual. To the non-assemblers out there (like me), it's one conflicting piece of information after another. Can my MS3 (NOT 3X) run low-imp injectors or not? According to the megamanual and the MS3 documentation it can and can't. Grrr.

This reminds me why I got out of MS in the first place .


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

You can ALWAYS run low impedance off the mainboard as long as the high current flyback (V3 std) is installed (Q9,10,12,13; R30-32,34-36).

From the msextra MS3 manual http://msextra.com/doc/ms3/fuel.html



> Low impedance injectors (less than 3 Ohms)
> 
> These injectors can be used, with a few connection options.
> Injector PWM (on the two V3 mainboard outputs only)
> ...


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

B4S said:


> Ok, I have always hated the megamanual. To the non-assemblers out there (like me), it's one conflicting piece of information after another. Can my MS3 (NOT 3X) run low-imp injectors or not? According to the megamanual and the MS3 documentation it can and can't. Grrr.
> 
> This reminds me why I got out of EFI in the first place .


Ok, if you are using the mainboard injector drivers as opposed to the injector drivers on the MS3X and have built the low impedance flyback ciruitry on the mainboard then YES you can use low impedance injectors. But why? Ok I know you want to go turbo with this but G60 injectors or 01 and newer 1.8T injectors (both easy to find I have a set of each if you need them) should be plenty big enough at 26lb/hr and 30lb/hr respectively and they are both high z


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I have built nothing, and installed nothing, lol. I bought it assembled from DIY, and it's v3.57, all surface mount stuff.

I've got some DSM 450s here that I'd like to use, and the other set I've got is from an AEB (240cc...thanks VW  ). Since I'm counterflow, this locks me out of the 4bar 20v FPR I have (which would have been perfect with the 240s). I'm trying to use what I have at hand, it makes it all more fun, to push my resourcefulness to it's limits.

I could always ghetto-crush my digi FPR up to 4 bar...but I've never really been a fan of that method. I can only imagine future pressure stability issues...ugh.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

3.57 is the same as a fully built V3 for what we're talking about. No worries setting it up with the DSMs and PWM.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Awesome, thanks Paul!


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

need_a_VR6 said:


> 3.57 is the same as a fully built V3 for what we're talking about. No worries setting it up with the DSMs and PWM.


 So then I'm assuming that I forget about pin 6 on the DB37 connector that says "12v flyback"?

[edit]megamanual...how I hate thee...


crazy book said:


> . Optional 12V flyback. If the main connector injector outputs are in use with low-z injectors, there is an optional modification inside the Megasquirt that makes that pin into a "12V flyback" and should be connected to a fused 12V supply. Check with your supplier


Looks like I might as well just contact DIY to double check. [/edit]


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I had some vague recollections of this and this is all I can find:

http://msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=40544&p=283562&hilit=flyback#p283562

I have run 4 and 6cyl engines with low imp injectors with no problems on quite a few VW's. There are a lot of users on the forums that have not done the above mod and have had good results. It might be *very* set up dependent if you need it or not. The lower the impedance and the more injectors you have the more likely you'll cause a flyback spike.

I do however recommend using the bootloader cap (I use them on mine) as it does cut down on alternator noise.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

if youre set on using low z injectors... check out the jbperf add on board.
really happy with that in my car :beer:


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I'm not dead-set on using low-imp injectors, it would make my life cheaper at the moment though. I've got a set of 240cc AEB injectors that I'll probably use to get myself up and going, the DSM ones I have are the 2G units unfortunately. They have a dual-spray tip, for a DOHC motor. I don't think they'd be the best for my 8v, so I'm going to remove a variable. The last thing I want is idle issues because of excessive wall-wetting.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Oh, one more question before I go insane...

How the heck do you change the "Fuel load %" into something useful? I want it to display KPA, so I can actually tune the car . Do I set up my own breakpoints? I'm using the stock onboard MAP sensor, so 250kpa IIRC.

I haven't connected the PC to the MS3 unit yet, if that's a factor. Just playing around with TunerStudio, creating a project for my car.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

fuel load % is in kpa ( if you are using a MAP sensor) And yes you can set the bins however you like.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

Prof315 said:


> fuel load % is in kpa ( if you are using a MAP sensor) And yes you can set the bins however you like.


what he said


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Good, I like having high resolution below 100kpa .


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

you can also trigger table switching within the software now... check that out :thumbup:


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Sweet, might check that out!

The megamanual FAILS ME AGAIN, sigh. Under the documentation for MS3, the MS3X EDIS settings say to use "Rising Edge", and leaves out MS3 plain jane. MS2 says use "Falling Edge", which one is it? When I select "EDIS" in TS, it seems to default to "Falling Edge", but I think it's more of a static dropdown menu that's unaffected by trigger choice. All the choices (more or less) default to falling...sigh.

The documentation lacks, severely, IMO.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Ok, searched the MSextra forums a bit, and came up with these settings for EDIS and MS3 (I'm still using the EDIS module):
-Falling Edge
-Going High (inverted)
-Spark hardware: JS10
-Standard dwell (not sure about this one, Fixed duty is the 'official' Megamanual setting).

These are settings pulled from running cars, so perhaps I should just not question them...but I don't want to fry EDIS modules, they're getting hard to find around here.

I really need to get this installed, before I go nuts with the questions, lol.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> you can also trigger table switching within the software now... check that out :thumbup:


I can tell you that it works like a charm. I'm switching at 101 kpa both fuel and spark so I essentially wind up with seperate tables for N/A and for boost. It gives me effective 30x16 fuel and spark tables( both tables have 100kpa and 110 kpa load lines for smooth transitioning)


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

There's a reason EDIS instructions aren't clear... everyone has binned it by now 

I'm not sure input rising/falling matters as EDIS does it's own decoding. For output inverted sounds right for a direct JS10 output. 

Generally, for MS3 (no 3x) the settings for MS2 will apply for the I/O.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I know, it should go in the bin and I should control everything from the MS3 itself...but it's already wired up and placed. I'm running Megajolt for ignition with the carbs, and I can eliminate a no-start variable this way, since I already know it works the way it is. If it refuses to start after the MS3 is in, I only have two wires and a couple settings to check, on the ignition-side. It'll help me troubleshoot, if need be.

Of course, I'm hoping I DON'T have to troubleshoot anything...I've had luck in the past with the pre-assembled stuff from DIY, as long as I don't go poking about in stuff that I don't want to understand . I've already forgotten how to tie my shoes once before, and now there's more stuff in my head. Adding circuit and higher-end assembly in there would cause me to lose the ability to count, I'm sure of it :laugh:.

Seriously, instead of going on instinct, try following HOW shoe-tying works...


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Prof315 said:


> I can tell you that it works like a charm. I'm switching at 101 kpa both fuel and spark so I essentially wind up with seperate tables for N/A and for boost. It gives me effective 30x16 fuel and spark tables( both tables have 100kpa and 110 kpa load lines for smooth transitioning)


Oooh, now I'm fantasizing about 25 rows of NA resolution for maximum efficiency...boost fueling isn't as picky, lol.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

B4S said:


> Oooh, now I'm fantasizing about 25 rows of NA resolution for maximum efficiency...boost fueling isn't as picky, lol.


Honestly even my settings are overkill as MS interpolates very well between bins. With 15 rows for N/A tuning my car is smooth as silk and gets great mileage, IF I go easy on the throttle . Since I rarely manage to be easy on it, :facepalm: I get decent mileage.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

True even 16 load bins is plenty for most setups. The only time I find that more is if I am trying to change afr target and ve is changing a lot at the same time.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> True even 16 load bins is plenty for most setups. The only time I find that more is if I am trying to change afr target and ve is changing a lot at the same time.


The main reason I use seperate table for N/A and boost is purely convenience. I find it easier to tune the car with them seperated. It's especially easy with VE Analyze Live because I can simply never turn it on for the table I'm not working with.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Coolness, found a set of Bosch redtop 34# injectors in the garage .

I'm going to try the table switching for fuel, but not for IGN. I'll set it up like prof's, NA on one table, boost on another. 

Anyone have an MSQ to share to get me rolling? At least the fuel VE map portion anyway, all I've got is old MS1 8v 'Patatron' maps...


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I can shoot you my base vex files, whats your email?


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

PM sent :thumbup:.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I got you covered.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Exactly what I was after! 

Thanks Paul!


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Ran out of wiring supplies...can't finish. The MS3 and my netbook have lovely conversations back and forth though, which is always encouraging .


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Ok, why the **** are my temp sensors not working? They're wired up as per the diagram, and I've tested both grounding them to the sensor grounds and to the block. I calibrated them in Tunerstudio to stock bosch, and no go. The IAT keeps rising, no matter if the sensor is plugged in or not, and the CLT keeps dropping. Somehow I doubt my engine temps (no coolant, car not running) are climbing to overheat levels, and I REALLY don't think it's going below -40*C right now. Nothing I do fixes either one. 

This is the ****ing reason I hate MS. Plug and play usually means Beat Your Head Against The Wall and Play. 

Can you sense my frustration?


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

And of course once I fix the config error related to firmware 1 and Edis...the sensors read fine. Sigh.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I896 using Tapatalk


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

One more 'arg'... 
In the 'idle control' menu, I set the FIdle to 'on/off', and the temp to 60*C. Doesn't trigger the relay to my valve. I configure it in the 'output settings', and sure enough, clicky click! Not sure why they'd trick people into using the idle menu then... 

It had better start, lol. If not, I'm yanking it out for a Haltech Sprint 500 .


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

B4S said:


> It had better start, lol. If not, I'm yanking it out for a Haltech Sprint 500 .


 wont hurt any of our feelings... operator error has a way of fouling up the best of intentions  

and i havent done on/off in ages, but as i recall you have to set it to both... output port telling it which pin is doing what, then the fidle menu in order to configure to trigger points and whatnot


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I'm not ashamed to admit that operator error could be the issue...but what does an ignition configuration setting have to do with my temp sensors reading correctly? :laugh: Besides, it wasn't my settings that were wrong, it was 'overzealous' software, according to the msextra forum. I had to switch it to a different config (single coil, basic trigger), then switch it back to EDIS, and everything was ok then. Not sure how setting it right, getting an error, setting it wrong on purpose, then setting it back to correct, fixes anything...but it did. 

The Fidle stuff is funny. If I adjust the temp in the idle control menu, nothing happens. If I adjust it in the output menu...click click click. 

Anyway, it's working, so technically it's all water under the bridge. It's just a bit frustrating when a week ago I was wiring a Haltech Sport 1000 on a 550rwhp 1993 RX-7 (a car that I know NOTHING about), and it cranked over first try, with all the gauge cluster working properly...and no strange phantom errors  .


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Wow, MS3 is SUPER sensitive to config errors I've found. To the point that it completely destroys the settings in the ECU and in tunerstudio. I upgraded to 1.0.2 (which was an adventure in itself for no reason...thank you USB for choosing COM10 by default, leaving me to figure out that anything above COM6 is basically useless for firmware updating  ) and it then gave me the option to choose 'single coil', which of course made no sense to me...EDIS is waste spark!

Yeah...my mistake for being logical . It's written NOWHERE in the megamanual that if you use the EDIS module, you set it to single coil (since it's essentially like a dizzy in the way it triggers the MS3). That was config error 1 sorted out. The second one was the Fidle/output settings stuff. I disabled the idle control portion and went right through the output settings. Far easier, and the solenoid actually responded.

You know, I'm no amateur at this, but having to go through so many extra steps is REALLY unnecessary IMO. MS3 is at least closest to commercial standalone than any other version...but lets just say I can't wait for a few more firmware upgrades .


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I think you had more problems than I had on my first ms3 alpha code. Though I didn't try anything nuts like an on/off fidle or edis!


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I think you had more problems than I had on my first ms3 alpha code. Though I didn't try anything nuts like an on/off fidle or edis!


x2 The single biggest issue I have had in 18 months of using MS3 was smoking the MS3 daughter board and 3X board when I first got the 3X by hooking up the big ribbon cable wrong.

Also something to note concerning MS3 and config errors. If you open the mini terminal, set it to ascii and cycle the power to MS it will tell what is causing the config error.

Something to remember about the MS3 documentation.... it's not complete but is constantly being worked on. I'm honestly amazed things have come as far as they have with MS3 when you figure that both Ken and James ( the firmware developers) have day jobs. I'm not sure that James sleeps.... ever


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I've used that mini-terminal function a lot, lol. I have to say, that's an amazing tool, and I love it. I wish I didn't have to love it...but I do :laugh:.

Everything seems cool now though, when I checked it this morning, all the settings had been retained, and no more config errors. The big one was the 'EDIS as a single coil' thing, and that's been solved thankfully. The 1.0.2 version of the firmware allows the user to change the coil type in ignition settings, no matter what trigger type is chosen. EDIS was defaulting to 'waste spark', which is what was causing the issue. The on/off valve thing has to be played with, but it's not a huge deal.


----------



## jwrench (May 18, 2004)

stick with your carbs. MS is a big headache:beer:


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I just tuned a demon on an olds 400.. Once you have +/- keys ita rough to go back.


----------



## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I just tuned a demon on an olds 400.. Once you have proper understanding of fuel and air and how they interact with each other in a combustion process which is controlled by an advanced micro circuit setup it's rough to go back.


 
fixed


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I would settle for a knob and a "burn" button.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

First turn of the key :thumbup:. No troubleshooting, no battery charger, three cranks and it fired up. All I've done is swap in the VE table from Paul for an ABA, nothing else. The FIdle on/off valve makes life so much easier. I'm constantly stunned at how hard some folks work to get their cars to warm up and idle. Every car I've ever built for myself has had one of these solenoids as a fast idle, and it never takes more than two cranks. No pedal feathering, nothing.

Now, I need a proper oil return gasket, and some exhaust piping. Then it's tuning .


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

B4S said:


> First turn of the key :thumbup:. No troubleshooting, no battery charger, three cranks and it fired up. All I've done is swap in the VE table from Paul for an ABA, nothing else. The FIdle on/off valve makes life so much easier. I'm constantly stunned at how hard some folks work to get their cars to warm up and idle. Every car I've ever built for myself has had one of these solenoids as a fast idle, and it never takes more than two cranks. No pedal feathering, nothing.
> 
> Now, I need a proper oil return gasket, and some exhaust piping. Then it's tuning .


woo whoo! :thumbup:


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

good work sir :thumbup:


any bets on how long it stays MS'd... before the carbs go back on? :laugh:


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Never hes got my magic table in there!


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I give it a summer .
Or until the turbo starts to smoke, which is my luck with these mitsu turbos . The kit I made last year didn't last a week...huge blue clouds. This one seems better, but the turbo was a bit greasy, so it puffed blue on initial startup. After some idling it went away, but since it's an open exhaust...it's tough to let it go on for long. This time my oil feed is -4AN, into a .065" restrictor, so hopefully that helps. I have zero luck with dynamically-sealed turbos . I love the forgiving nature of oldschool carbon seals, lol.

Actually, if the turbo eventually comes off, I'm tempted to try that set of OBX ITBs for the ABA...so I'd need to keep the EFI .


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Actually, if/when I do switch back to carbs...the MS3 will be staying to provide ignition control. I've already retrofitted the carbs with a TPS, so I could easily datalog everything I need to REALLY dial in the setup . TPS, MAP, CLT, IAT, ignition, AFR, etc. Not to mention that if I swapped to an ABA bottom end, I'd have access to the 60-2 setup vs. my EDIS stuff.

I'm off tomorrow, so I can hopefully address the remaining issues, and start tuning on the weekend :thumbup:.


----------



## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

B4S said:


> Actually, if/when I do switch back to carbs...the MS3 will be staying to provide ignition control. I've already retrofitted the carbs with a TPS, so I could easily datalog everything I need to REALLY dial in the setup . TPS, MAP, CLT, IAT, ignition, AFR, etc. Not to mention that if I swapped to an ABA bottom end, I'd have access to the 60-2 setup vs. my EDIS stuff.
> 
> I'm off tomorrow, so I can hopefully address the remaining issues, and start tuning on the weekend :thumbup:.


 
oh lord he already has it all planned out. :laugh:


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I hate this place, everyone is mean .

*starts thinking about ecotec swaps*


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

wantacad said:


> oh lord he already has it all planned out. :laugh:


hah was just about to post that!


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

B4S said:


> *starts thinking about ecotec swaps*


NOW you're thinking smart!


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I seriously love that motor, have for years. I had one as a mockup, but it wasn't the right time. Now I'd probably go 2.4, if the VVT was simple enough to control with basic MS3 tech. VR power in a smaller, lighter package...with an automatic transmission that's readily controllable via aftermarket means. Sounds like a deal to me! 

For now though...high comp, 1.8 8v turbo, chemical intercooled, is the way I'm going to go. The ecotec on carbs with MS3 for ignition and VVT control can wait .


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

B4S said:


> I seriously love that motor, have for years. I had one as a mockup, but it wasn't the right time. Now I'd probably go 2.4, if the VVT was simple enough to control with basic MS3 tech. VR power in a smaller, lighter package...with an automatic transmission that's readily controllable via aftermarket means. Sounds like a deal to me!
> 
> For now though...high comp, 1.8 8v turbo, chemical intercooled, is the way I'm going to go. The ecotec on carbs with MS3 for ignition and VVT control can wait .


Hey nothing worng with a 1.8 8V. Especially with turbonium and H2O/meth. But don't forget one other thing about the Ecotec.... TONS of aftermarket go fast parts... heck even the dealer sells good stuff for Ecos and they are SUPER nasty with F/I.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

No worries there, I want to put a turbo Ecotec into a short bed, single cab 1500 pickup. V8 power with excellent gas mileage. :laugh:


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> No worries there, I want to put a turbo Ecotec into a short bed, single cab 1500 pickup. V8 power with excellent gas mileage. :laugh:


Sounds like a great idea to me. I mean Ford has finally gotten smart.... the new SHO Taurus 3.5L twin turbo Ecoboost is going into F150s. Almost enough to make me think about owning a Ford....NOT :laugh:


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Put on the last piece of exhaust and fired it up once more (even though the oil return leaks at the gasket, need a new one). Without ANY tuning at all, and with no touch on the throttle, it fired up on the third or fourth crank. I love being able to just reach in and turn the key.

A bit more cranking fuel, and I doubt it'll get past two rotations before firing up. My NGK wideband is telling me it's off the scale lean at idle, but it's still happy to run (although, at about 1500-1700 rpm, lol). It needs idle tuning, obviously, but hey...that's where the fun starts.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Off the scale lean with the afx might not even be that bad. Easy enough to solve with new idle jets


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Everyone sees this right? Paul is trying to get me to go back to carbs with his dirty temptation talk!

I'm sure it's getting a fair amount of idle ignition too, I haven't bothered to set down with the netbook connected yet. I really should do a free-air calibration too, since I'm using the Bosch sensor and not the NTK.

The biggest piece of happy of all this is that the $25 turbo DOESN'T blow blue .


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

B4S said:


> Everyone sees this right? Paul is trying to get me to go back to carbs with his dirty temptation talk!


I was *totally* kidding for clarification!:laugh:


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

That's a great VE table :thumbup:. The AFRs are spot on, right into boost. It's a tad lean for my 10:1 though...getting LOTS of knock at 6psi, 69*C IATs, 15* advance, and stock digi-2 plugs, lol. I think I'll have to dip into the high 11's to drown the knock out.

My oil return still leaks like a sieve though, dammit. If it was at the pan, I'd ignore it. It's at the turbo, so it's got to be solved before I can really enjoy myself.

I'm installing my AEM water/meth currently, and have some BPRE7 plugs as well. I really should get rid of the 87 octane in the tank too :laugh: .

I'm a little surprised at how slowly the 14b mitsu turbo spools though. Perhaps it's just a side effect of the smaller SOHC I've put it on. I start to get boost at 2500, and make full 6 psi by 3100. It could also be the 'loose' wastegate can I've put on it. I should tighten up the arm and see what happens.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Yeah those plugs wont help!


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Still trying to sort out my rotten leaky oil return. I'm going to have to get it planed down, to make sure it's flat, because I don't think it is. There was a ton of oil coming out of the return, onto the exhaust, but the new gasket I have in there is dry. I took the return off, and the turbo itself is dry, which rules out a leaky hotside. 

I also found a lot of metal powder in the piping from the turbo to the TB...which is odd, in a 'crap, I need a new turbo' kinda way. Luckily this engine/turbo combo is mostly disposible, since I've got an ABA bottom end on a stand, and a spare G60 head to play with. This summer will be the experimental phase.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

B4S said:


> That's a great VE table :thumbup:. The AFRs are spot on, right into boost. It's a tad lean for my 10:1 though...getting LOTS of knock at 6psi, 69*C IATs, 15* advance, and stock digi-2 plugs, lol. I think I'll have to dip into the high 11's to drown the knock out.
> 
> My oil return still leaks like a sieve though, dammit. If it was at the pan, I'd ignore it. It's at the turbo, so it's got to be solved before I can really enjoy myself.
> 
> ...


If you are installing water/meth you _should_ be able to stay with the 87 octane. Even at 10 to 1 static compression.

I just recently picked up a trunkmount Coolingmist Smart Injection system ( they are on sale big time). Haven't installed it yet because I'm working on a high current PWM driver with a friend so I can let MS handle progressive control by PWM on the pump.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

The W/M install is on hold for the moment, I had to park my daily project in the way, the wife is getting on my case about always using her car :banghead:. I'm not a fan of the AEM's 1 gallon tank design, it's too tall to be conveniently mounted in the back of my Rabbit. I'm looking for options currently. We've got some universal washer tanks at the shop that we use for custom installs, so I might go that way instead. Smaller capacity, but better fit.

To keep this all on MS-topic: I love my EDIS module . I didn't have to adjust anything when I did the timing lock dance. It was bang on 10*, right out of the box . I refuse to listen to any sort of logic that says its due to the fact that I set the wheel properly prior to the install. LALALALALALALALA.

RE: MS3X water inj control: I dig that idea. It'd be a reason to grab the MS3X card . The AEM comes with a progressive controller, but hey...keeping it all onboard is a better option.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Jeff, cant you just use the mainboard inj outputs for wmi on your car? If its for someone else just use the irlz44 circuit for the high speed valve. Or.. Sparkfun has a few not expensive pwm motor boards if you want pump flow control.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Jeff, cant you just use the mainboard inj outputs for wmi on your car? If its for someone else just use the irlz44 circuit for the high speed valve. Or.. Sparkfun has a few not expensive pwm motor boards if you want pump flow control.


I thought about using the mainboard inj outputs but to get 250psi with a 7gal/hr nozzle you need ~15A. Probably to much current, especially since the pump motor resistance is 6.8 ohms. The set up we are testing is serious overkill, a 75A MOSFET and driver package as the core but it's still under $40 for everything. We are looking at a couple of lower (~25A) current MOSFETS that are cheap for a final solution. This way the driver package could also run an electric water pump or fuel pump with PWM control.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Wow...cold plugs really change how quickly the car fires up.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Judgement in the case of Cranky old Carb Lover vs. MS3: 

MS3 has been proven not guilty of the charge of being as big a pain in the butt as it's earlier siblings. Startups are good, idle is great (VEAL :heart: ), and tuning has so far been minimal (thanks to the sweet VE.vex from Paul  ). Finished the AEM Water/meth install, and just got back from testing with water. I'm using the stock ABA IAT, and while the temps didn't drop a HUGE amount, they did go down. It also raised the knock threshold on my little 10:1 1.8 8v a fair amount, although it still pinged. I imagine a 50/50 mix, and some 91 octane, will put an end to that .

I realize there would have been a better IAT shift if I was using an open-element sensor, but I don't feel comfortable running the open sensor post water/meth.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

B4S said:


> I realize there would have been a better IAT shift if I was using an open-element sensor, but I don't feel comfortable running the open sensor post water/meth.


would think youd get better response off the water with the open element sensor, then just move your water spray downstream of the sensor...


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I'm non-intercooled, so my temps never go down on their own, unless I've dropped out of boost. Even then, it never goes any lower than 50*C (ambient here is 20*C/68*F). I'm interested in seeing how the water/meth brings the temps down, which is why I set it up like this. I'm working on an intercooler setup, but I don't want to get started until I've got everything I'll need.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

So I was dialing in the priming pulse today...when the starter decided it didn't want to stop cranking. The ignition was off, but it was still turning over. Awesome. Got a wicked 2nd degree burn from grabbing the red hot negative terminal on the battery, but thanks to my friends here at the shop, it was shut down before anything went up in flames. It was the starter solenoid I was using (a generic one), it shorted out thanks to a loose bolt. I've 'upgraded' to the ford version, and now all is good again .

Got those priming pulses dialed waaaaaay in though .


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Ok, a few things:
-the slow spool was due to my autobox bleeding internally. The ONLY seal I didn't change in the rebuild was the stupid O-Ring that separates the diff and transaxle portions, so of course it went. Mixed gear oil and ATF...slip slip slip. This will be getting fixed I think. 

-My 1.8 bottom end seems blowy, so I'll be throwing in an ABA I have here. This gives me access to the 60-2 wheel, which I want to use. What's the typical trigger angle of that particular wheel? I've read a few things, I know the sensor lines up at 14 teeth after the gap at TDC, but that would make the trigger angle 82* (or 92* if you factor in the two missing) no? I've seen 60* bandied about quite a bit, which doesn't add up IMO. My MS3 is already configured for EDIS input, so I only have to reset the pots inside I think, unless anyone has some hard info for me before I scrap the car in frustration :laugh:.

I really want to try to stay focused on one setup for at least a summer.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

B4S said:


> Ok, a few things:
> -the slow spool was due to my autobox bleeding internally. The ONLY seal I didn't change in the rebuild was the stupid O-Ring that separates the diff and transaxle portions, so of course it went. Mixed gear oil and ATF...slip slip slip. This will be getting fixed I think.
> 
> -My 1.8 bottom end seems blowy, so I'll be throwing in an ABA I have here. This gives me access to the 60-2 wheel, which I want to use. What's the typical trigger angle of that particular wheel? I've read a few things, I know the sensor lines up at 14 teeth after the gap at TDC, but that would make the trigger angle 82* (or 92* if you factor in the two missing) no? I've seen 60* bandied about quite a bit, which doesn't add up IMO. My MS3 is already configured for EDIS input, so I only have to reset the pots inside I think, unless anyone has some hard info for me before I scrap the car in frustration :laugh:.
> ...


The typical trigger angle for all of the VW 60-2 tooth wheels I have encountered is 78*. ABA, AEG,VR6 or 1.8T , they are all triggered on the 14th tooth. But check things with a timing light to verify.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

True enough, the timing light doesn't lie. Thanks for the info!
I'd stick with my EDIS stuff, but it seems to idle like a subaru, and I'm not sure if it's engine related or not. Figure I might as well eliminate any external variables if I'm swapping engines.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Agreed 78 for all vw 60-2 for ms2/3. Ms1 does it different and it will also depend on which tooth you pick for #1, thus why you see other numbers used.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Coolness.
Now, I'm assuming I'll see the BIP373 for direct coil control when I open the case, since it was a pre-built version from DIYautotune. I'd imagine that MS3 has it included in the BOM as standard now, although I'm just guessing here. It seems like MS3 would be advanced enough to include it right out of the box, hopefully . If pin 36 is set to run EDIS (SAW), it'd be the coil signal for my EDIS coilpacks in waste spark, no?


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

B4S said:


> Coolness.
> Now, I'm assuming I'll see the BIP373 for direct coil control when I open the case, since it was a pre-built version from DIYautotune. I'd imagine that MS3 has it included in the BOM as standard now, although I'm just guessing here. It seems like MS3 would be advanced enough to include it right out of the box, hopefully . If pin 36 is set to run EDIS (SAW), it'd be the coil signal for my EDIS coilpacks in waste spark, no?


Mmmm if it is a v3.57 mainboard then no, the BIP373 in Q16 is an add-on. Most people going with MS3 also get a 3Xpander board which has the 8 logic level drivers for spark on it. James Murray (jsmcortina on the MS forums) has a multiple BIP driver box for sale that most MS3 folks are using for direct coil control. Me, I use LS truck engine coils on my car as they are very robust, readily available and VERY MS3X friendly.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Hmm, that's the conclusion I've come to after a few minutes on the net. No BIP373s with EDIS control. Nuts, I hate soldering .

Maybe I'll hold on to the EDIS for a bit yet...it's safer (and cheaper) for me, lest I bugger up my 3.57 board.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Well, achieved a new personal best. In all my years of playing with VW engines, I've never blown one up. Last week, I killed my 1.8 *AND* the automatic...on the same day. The compression test shows 50-75-210-150 (done cold), and the dipstick of the tranny reeks of gear oil.

I'm prepping my backup ABA bottom end now, and a part of me wonders if it's time for the world's most complex carb setup ever . MS3 for ignition (alpha-N, modified by IAT and CLT), datalogging (throttle position, AFR, IAT, CLT, and kpa), dual timing maps (low and high octane), rad fan control, and maybe if I'm feeling loopy...sequential COP spark w/MS3X :laugh:. The EDIS is staying for now, since it works great the way it is.

I'm NOT getting rid of it though, I'm ashamed to admit that I really like MS3.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Leave the injectors and pull the chokes out of the carbs.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Not sure there'd be room for the linkage with the fuel rail in the way. Interesting idea though, I have thought about ITBs in the past. I'll have to check the fit when everything is out for the swap.

I love the sound of carbs, maybe this could be the best of both worlds.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Been giving this some thought, since I don't like the idea of leaving all the jets open to air. I realize that they'll only allow more air into the carb, pre-throttle plates (except the progression holes, which bypass the plate), but I wanted to find a way to do it 'right'. I'm going to solder the jets closed and turn the idle mix screws all the way in, which should solve all the problems at once. 

I kinda hope the linkage doesn't interfere, this sounds like a fun project. I can always rebuild that part, but I'd rather not (for deadline's sake).


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Not a chance in hell that the carb intake will fit, if I use the stock fuel rail. It's quite far from bolting up, so I'm just going to use the current corrado intake manifold I have on it now. I have a 1/4" counterflow intake flange I could use as a spacer, but it would still need another 1/8" I think.

No biggie. Using the current manifold setup means I can keep my water/meth (although I'm not really sure what I need it for, lol), and possibly enjoy the car more .

Spent some time building an RV/ABA (hydro head) to replace the blown 1.8, which isn't being very obvious with it's evidence. It _looks_ like the edge of the #1 piston is melted slightly, but it's tough to tell.


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

B4S said:


> Not a chance in hell that the carb intake will fit, if I use the stock fuel rail. It's quite far from bolting up, so I'm just going to use the current corrado intake manifold I have on it now. I have a 1/4" counterflow intake flange I could use as a spacer, but it would still need another 1/8" I think.
> 
> No biggie. Using the current manifold setup means I can keep my water/meth (although I'm not really sure what I need it for, lol), and possibly enjoy the car more .
> 
> Spent some time building an RV/ABA (hydro head) to replace the blown 1.8, which isn't being very obvious with it's evidence. It _looks_ like the edge of the #1 piston is melted slightly, but it's tough to tell.


Here's why you want the water/meth. MS will let you use multiple VE and Spark tables several ways and you can then take full advantage of the water/meth. 

This is what I am doing: I _was_ using kpa based tableswitchand running seperate tables for boost and N/A. Today I changed that to secondary fuel and spark load for my boost and N/A and I am using hardware based tableswitching ( a grounding output from the SmartInjection controller) for boosted fuel and spark with water/meth. The SI controller only grounds the tableswitch if the water/meth is actually flowing. So I can tune agressive with water/meth and keep things sane/safe if it doesn't spray. (due to a clog, pump issue, low fluid, whatever!)


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Interesting, my AEM W/M has the same thing. An output that triggers a 'safe' signal if the level gets too low. I could utilize that the same way, although I am no longer boosted (my turbo setup was based around the auto, and by adding the shifter linkage back in, nothing will fit). A plain-jane ABA doesn't really need W/M to make decent power, although I suppose it would be nice to always run 87 octane. I could probably get away with just water at that point, I'd have to experiment I guess.

My W/M is progressive...with trigger points starting at 1psi . I'd need to run an output from the MS to trigger the pump, or buy a different controller.


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Sold the W/M, extra money for next year's hotrod project . 

I'll be firing it up this weekend, new engine/tranny is ready to go in. N/A from now on, which should be interesting since it's never been NA and plenum at the same time. I'm usually on carbs. Fingers crossed it amuses me enough to stay out of it for the rest of the season.


----------



## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

B4S said:


> Sold the W/M, extra money for next year's hotrod project .
> 
> I'll be firing it up this weekend, new engine/tranny is ready to go in. N/A from now on, which should be interesting since it's never been NA and plenum at the same time. I'm usually on carbs. Fingers crossed it amuses me enough to stay out of it for the rest of the season.


 I need to fly up there am smack you a few times.:laugh:


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

If you think it's worth it, you can crash here :laugh:. 

Honestly though, the 010 needs a full refresh, and I just don't have enough left in my car budget to rebuild it *and* prep the replacement engine (full gasket kit, hoses, clutch, etc). The turbo kit was built around the auto, so the piping would foul hardcore on the shifter linkage, which means no boost for the rest of the summer. I've got maybe 3 months worth of driving left, and I want to get as much in as possible...so NA it is for now.


----------

