# Badger5 vs Samco TIP Comparison



## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

*Badger5 vs Forge TIP Comparison*

Accidentally titled Samco, but it's actually a Forge inlet, same thing. 

01 TT225 AMU on 93 octane with the following modifications:
AWP ECU with standard Unitronics 1+ file
6" K&N Cone on 6" velocity stack with 3"ID mounted directly to AMU MAF housing with AWP MAF sensor.
Standard Forge TIP vs Badger5 TIP (not sure on version)
42DD catted 3" DP
Borla 2.5" catback
APR throttle body hose 
SEM small port intake manifold
630cc injectors with adjustable FPR
Greddy Type S EBC (max'ed out with no additional springs on the external WG currently)

Comparison pics:


















I didn't touch the EBC gain or make any ECU tweaks, this was a log, install, relog comparison. 
Ambient during baseline was 67* according to the dash, 65* for the Badger5 log.
Log was done on same stretch of interstate so same grade/load. 











Numbers "seem" low because this is an AWP ECU with the scaled larger AMU MAF housing and injectors, so gains are relative, not absolute. Either way, it's a win. Before, the engine would hold 14-15 psi at 7K rpms. After, there would be 17-18psi at redline, so obvious flow restriction was obvious. :beer:


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## Boulderhead (Oct 21, 2012)

Cool to see some numbers behind this and another happy customer with the Badger TIP :thumbup:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Boulderhead said:


> Cool to see some numbers behind this and another happy customer with the Badger TIP :thumbup:


Yeah, I wish I could see the difference on a standard AMU ECU/MAF, but gains are gains. :beer:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

So, I tried to backwards calculate the correct MAF readings based on the housing size and what the ECU "thinks" is the housing size. Basically I used the pipe diameter flow rate equation with the MAF readings and the AWP MAF housing size to get a calculated velocity (what the ECU's is calculating as velocity), then applied that velocity to the actual AMU housing size to get a corrected flow rate. This gave me 204 g/s peak, but that seems low since I know I logged just over 200 g/s on the AWP housing with an AWP ECU on 318cc AWP injectors when I installed the 225 K04 setup on my old 180Q along with the SEM manifold, but that setup wasn't running this much boost. That setup had stock DP and catback though, with Forge inlet, so I should be well past that now. Oh well, the numbers don't matter, it's flowing more.


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## Gonzalo1495 (Feb 2, 2015)

204 G/s is very low, about 255 bhp actually, considering what you have done to the car. Probably the MAF housing like you said is causing issues with the readings. Do you have it dynoed already or no? 

That comparison is very interesting, I'm a little disappointed, I was expecting the Badger 5 to make more of a distinction. I guess the real benefits would come from adjusting the tune though. 

Great data, thanks for sharing :thumbup:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Gonzalo1495 said:


> 204 G/s is very low, about 255 bhp actually, considering what you have done to the car. Probably the MAF housing like you said is causing issues with the readings. Do you have it dynoed already or no?
> 
> That comparison is very interesting, I'm a little disappointed, I was expecting the Badger 5 to make more of a distinction. I guess the real benefits would come from adjusting the tune though.
> 
> Great data, thanks for sharing :thumbup:


In theory, my calculation method should be accurate. The only possible variable that could be off is the simplified area calculations of the MAF housings. I'm thinking subtracting the area of the sensor itself would show a bigger percentage change in the area scaling, and put me closer to accurate values. I'll measure the sensor tonight and rerun my numbers. No, never dynoed any of my TT's, but perhaps I'm getting to the point where I should just so I know. :laugh: Again, the scaling is why the graph isn't showing "impressive" gains. 5g/s over baseline is a ~3.5% improvement. Also, you have to remember this is all OEM IC piping and dual SMIC's. Those are all flow restrictions. It's not like I have a completely optimized system and this was the last piece of the puzzle. The fact that I can hold ~3psi more boost at 7K rpms with no changes to the EBC shows me all I need to know: the Forge inlet was a choke point.


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## G'D60 (Mar 11, 2002)

20v master said:


> In theory, my calculation method should be accurate. The only possible variable that could be off is the simplified area calculations of the MAF housings. I'm thinking subtracting the area of the sensor itself would show a bigger percentage change in the area scaling, and put me closer to accurate values. I'll measure the sensor tonight and rerun my numbers. No, never dynoed any of my TT's, but perhaps I'm getting to the point where I should just so I know. :laugh: Again, the scaling is why the graph isn't showing "impressive" gains. 5g/s over baseline is a ~3.5% improvement. Also, you have to remember this is all OEM IC piping and dual SMIC's. Those are all flow restrictions. It's not like I have a completely optimized system and this was the last piece of the puzzle. The fact that I can hold ~3psi more boost at 7K rpms with no changes to the EBC shows me all I need to know: the *Forge inlet was a choke point*.


Geez. Makes you wonder how guys are getting by with a stock TIP, especially an aging TIP. no wonder they collapse under more boost. Great work!


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## Gonzalo1495 (Feb 2, 2015)

20v master said:


> In theory, my calculation method should be accurate. The only possible variable that could be off is the simplified area calculations of the MAF housings. I'm thinking subtracting the area of the sensor itself would show a bigger percentage change in the area scaling, and put me closer to accurate values. I'll measure the sensor tonight and rerun my numbers. No, never dynoed any of my TT's, but perhaps I'm getting to the point where I should just so I know. :laugh: Again, the scaling is why the graph isn't showing "impressive" gains. 5g/s over baseline is a ~3.5% improvement. Also, you have to remember this is all OEM IC piping and dual SMIC's. Those are all flow restrictions. It's not like I have a completely optimized system and this was the last piece of the puzzle. The fact that I can hold ~3psi more boost at 7K rpms with no changes to the EBC shows me all I need to know: the Forge inlet was a choke point.


Oh I was un aware you were on stock side mounts! 
I guess the most important question is WHY?!?! Even uprated side mounts with deeper wells and larger piping would improve drastically. What are you waiting for lol


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Because this. I'm buying myself a TIG for Christmas and the daily will get an AWIC shortly after.


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## Converted2VW (Apr 8, 2009)

20v, was this the right hand driver TIP from Badger5?
Any interference issues with coolant/brake lines?

nice write up!:thumbup:


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## Boulderhead (Oct 21, 2012)

Hey Luis, in my experience it does require some trimming of the end which mounts to the turbo to get it in there. It also puts some pressure on one of the lines coming from the ABS block. Once winter rolls around I'm looking to flip one of the hard lines which should help with the clearance. No problems with coolant lines.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Good Job gathering the data from an upgraded TIP to the Badger5 80mm one. Very nice recorded mass airflow increase throughout the rev range, and a healthy bump in boost generated (like I told you you'd see). 

PS: Nice trim job, how was the fiment for you?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Gonzalo1495 said:


> 204 G/s is very low, about 255 bhp actually, considering what you have done to the car. Probably the MAF housing like you said is causing issues with the readings. Do you have it dynoed already or no?
> 
> That comparison is very interesting, I'm a little disappointed, I was expecting the Badger 5 to make more of a distinction. I guess the real benefits would come from adjusting the tune though.
> 
> Great data, thanks for sharing :thumbup:


I don't think you are interpreting the numbers and resulting gains correctly. The gains are nothing short of amazing for just a TIP. 

1) The mass air gain is from an already upgraded TIP, so the mass aif gains should be expected to double if coming from a stock TIP

2) You're looking at absolute numbers instead of the percentage gained throughout. That is about a 5% mass air gain throughout the powerband. 

3) There is also a 3 psi gain (from peak TQ-up) which is tremendous on a stock frame turbo that intrinsically struggles in that region.

Tell me another basic mod that gives you a 5+% of mass air gained everywhere, free up more than 2 psi that was being wasted through pressure loss. I already know the answer: None! In my case for example, gaining 3 psi at the same shaft speed, and some extra mass air with no other variable means having the possibility to gain 30+ WHP without increasing shaft speed and charge air temperature. Rethink what you're seeing!!!


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Converted2VW said:


> 20v, was this the right hand driver TIP from Badger5?
> Any interference issues with coolant/brake lines?
> 
> nice write up!:thumbup:


Yes, it is the RHD unit from Badger5. With no modifications, there will be some substantial interference with the brake lines. With some trimming on the turbo side, the TIP can be made to fit decently. The one Adam is using is my old unit since I now run my filter right on the turbo inlet and eliminated the need for all this piping (even more improvement than what is showcased here). Below is my post on install on fitment:




Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Got the Badger5 TIP installed and ended up trimming about an inch off the turbo end of the TIP to get a fitment I was comfortable and happy with. Without trimming, the brake lines are crushing and digging into the silicone way too much IMO. Pics below, and mass airflow data will follow
> 
> 
> Comparo with your typical silicone TIP
> ...


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> PS: Nice trim job, how was the fitment for you?


It literally popped right on. I left the clamp loose and on the compressor inlet, pushed the TIP down into the hole and twisted, and it was on. Tightened the clamp and climbed underneath to verify visually, and it was good to go! :thumbup: The whole job took me an hour and ten minutes taking my time. If not for the swallowed brake booster grommet, I would have had the graph posted yesterday morning. :laugh:


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## Gonzalo1495 (Feb 2, 2015)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I don't think you are interpreting the numbers and resulting gains correctly. The gains are nothing short of amazing for just a TIP.
> 
> 1) The mass air gain is from an already upgraded TIP, so the mass aif gains should be expected to double if coming from a stock TIP
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure the forge tip (among all the others) are just oem sized TIPs no? How do they offer an increase over OEM besides the fact they don't "collapse" under boost pressures, however I've never seen or had issues with my oem tip when I had it on running 19psi? 

I'm going solely off the graph he posted, quantitative not word of mouth. If he were to post logs of his boost pressure then I would acknowledge that as well. It's a habit now that if there's not real data behind it I'm not going to concern myself with it, I'm speaking solely on the G/s. I also was under the impression he was running more boost and all that. 3 Psi is a hell of a good increase, not saying I don't believe that's possible, it definitely is, I'm just saying I don't see any proof or logs showing it. 

I agree it's a good mod, I recommend it all the time, and like I mentioned the data was probably off anyways! I'm not familiar with his build so I wasn't aware what he was running. Maybe I should spend more time over here than ttforum lol. :laugh:
I thought he had a larger turbo and built engine, at least that's what I gathered from the brief glimpses of his thread. :thumbup:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Since we are on the topic this is my experience with the Badger5 Tip. My previous best with the Forge unit was 281 G/s, with the B5 TIP, the mass air flowed went up to 298 G/s and flatlined. Therefore the peak percentage gained is even more since 298 is the maximum that the sensor will register (i.e. maxed out). 

Like Adam, I also gained a few PSI by removing some restriction from the other performance TIP. This allowed me to keep the same psi I ran before, but enjoy lower IAT and EGT because I was able to operate at lower shaft speed to make the same desired boost target. 

One extra thing worth mentioning is that the improvement in airflow also put me over a threshold that I feared for a while. The car started operating above the compressor surge line at boost onset. This means that at onset, there is more air than the compressor can ingest, and boost needs to be capped under 28 psi or there is some surge. It's not bad, but it's there. This info probably does not apply to 99% of the audience, but should be mentioned. I see it as a good problem to have... finding the physical limit of a compressor.


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## Gonzalo1495 (Feb 2, 2015)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Since we are on the topic this is my experience with the Badger5 Tip. My previous best with the Forge unit was 281 G/s, with the B5 TIP, the mass air flowed went up to 298 G/s and flatlined. Therefore the peak percentage gained is even more since 298 is the maximum that the sensor will register (i.e. maxed out).
> 
> Like Adam, I also gained a few PSI by removing some restriction from the other performance TIP. This allowed me to keep the same psi I ran before, but enjoy lower IAT and EGT because I was able to operate at lower shaft speed to make the same desired boost target.
> 
> One extra thing worth mentioning is that the improvement in airflow also put me over a threshold that I feared for a while. The car started operating above the compressor surge line at boost onset. This means that at onset, there is more air than the compressor can ingest, and boost needs to be capped under 28 psi or there is some surge. It's not bad, but it's there. This info probably does not apply to 99% of the audience, but should be mentioned. I see it as a good problem to have... finding the physical limit of a compressor.


Interesting! What turbo did you max it out with? Not the K04 Right? 298G/s / 0.8 would be 373 hp at the crank roughly  And that's not taking into account the fact that you were making more that wasn't being registered. Jesus that's insane.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Gonzalo1495 said:


> I thought he had a larger turbo and built engine, at least that's what I gathered from the brief glimpses of his thread. :thumbup:


I do, just not in this car. Lol. No one would be running these silicone inlets on a "larger" turbo other than hybrids. And Max's post about max'ing out the sensor was on the stock K04 as well.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Gonzalo1495 said:


> I'm pretty sure the forge tip (among all the others) are just oem sized TIPs no? How do they offer an increase over OEM besides the fact they don't "collapse" under boost pressures, however I've never seen or had issues with my oem tip when I had it on running 19psi?
> 
> I'm going solely off the graph he posted, quantitative not word of mouth. If he were to post logs of his boost pressure then I would acknowledge that as well. It's a habit now that if there's not real data behind it I'm not going to concern myself with it, I'm speaking solely on the G/s. I also was under the impression he was running more boost and all that. 3 Psi is a hell of a good increase, not saying I don't believe that's possible, it definitely is, I'm just saying I don't see any proof or logs showing it.
> 
> ...


The aftermarket TIPs like Forge or Samco are performance upgrades over the factory units. They're not just preventing the collapsing syndrome which BTW is more of a result of the amount of pressure drop across the intake than the rigidity of the pipe (some aftermarket ones I've seen are weaker than OEM but don't collapse due to the reduction in pressure drop). 

People have said the same thing you're saying many times before to me. However, there is no easy way to show boost in logs once you're past the limit of the factory pressure sensor. Most at that point rely on what their boost gauge is telling them, and an increase of boost pressure without any other change is the one of best indication of an improvement in performance. Like Adam, I saw the same results with a bump in boost (besides the aiflow increase), I even told him that's what he should expect when he inquired about the benefits of the Badger5 TIP. These changes are real, but can't be easily quantified through a normal ECU log. 

BTW, Adam (20v master) is Collector in the UK forum, he has so many TTs that's it's hard to keep track on all of them. This test was on his stock-turbo daily driver.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Gonzalo1495 said:


> Interesting! What turbo did you max it out with? Not the K04 Right? 298G/s / 0.8 would be 373 hp at the crank roughly  And that's not taking into account the fact that you were making more that wasn't being registered. Jesus that's insane.


That is with the hybrid. I was tempted to use a 4" ID housing and rescaling the values to know exactly what aiflow the setup is making, but my upgrade to speed/density with the standalone ECU made me give up on that. BTW, the 0.8 factor loosely used is not applicable to most setup outside of stock-like combos. A car like mine is far from being a candidate for that 0.8 factor since the rigid factor is only somewhat accurate for a stock setup. 



20v master said:


> I do, just not in this car. Lol. No one would be running these silicone inlets on a "larger" turbo other than hybrids. And Max's post about max'ing out the sensor was on the stock K04 as well.


I should clarify that I maxed out the stock sensor with the hybrid. In the larger 3" ID housing that I normally run, I could not have maxed out the sensor on the stock turbo. 250 G/s is the best I remember getting out of the stock K04 in the larger housing (which I think is under-reporting by about 34% compared to the stock housing).


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