# Discussion about Winter driving, Snow Tires, ESP



## Eosluvr (Nov 20, 2006)

*Winter driving*

I was just wondering if anyone has had the chance to drive thier Eos in the snow and ice? And if so how did it handle?


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## Shaka (May 20, 2001)

*Re: Winter driving (Eosluvr)*

My wife drove thru some thin layers of snow today, saying the all-season Michelin tires the car came with were adequate. My intent, being here in Ohio on the northeast corner (snowbelt), is to maybe get dedicated snow tires. But we arent sure yet...
Past VW-driving experiences have taught me that the old ASR (and newer/better ESP systems) with a good set of all-season or snow tires are good for driving around, and since the Eos shares much of its underpinnings with the Mk5 and Passat cars, which are known to be good FWD winter cars, I suspect the Eos will be much the same.
Once the snow REALLY hits, you can except I'll have more feedback for everyone. Bef/I are looking forward to a white winter!


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## Hotmoose (Aug 31, 2006)

*Re: Winter driving (Shaka)*

I bought Pirelli winter carving 16 inches. They are great so far. IMO, 4 seasons tire should not exist....well maybe in places where there are not lots of snow......


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Winter driving (Hotmoose)*

D'accord...
Michael


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## WolfsburgerMitFries (Jul 4, 2005)

*Re: Winter driving (PanEuropean)*

D'spare 95 Caravan.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Winter driving (WolfsburgerMitFries)*


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## Grinder (Feb 6, 2004)

The Passat does not come with 235 width tires, I think that these will be a handicap for the EOS in the winter. I will be putting on 215/55/r16 winter tires, even this width seems wide to me coming from 195 snowtires on my B5.5 Passat. I only received the care this weekend and we did not have any snow to try it with and none is forecast this week. I would agree that the ASR system is very good at keeping you from being stuck and getting up a slippery driveway.
Paul


_Modified by Grinder at 8:37 PM 11-20-2006_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Grinder)*

Hi Paul:
I agree very much with your preference for the narrower profile snow tires. The only snow tire I was allowed to fit on my (large) VW was a 255/45, and my 12 year old niece pointed out that it was wider than her snowboard! Oh well, I'm grateful the car has ABS and electronic stability control (not to mention four wheel drive...)
I remember that North Bay has a really big hill - I think it is on Highway 11, heading north - maybe you could use that as the 'proving ground' for your snow tire test!
Michael


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Winter driving (Eosluvr)*

When we get our EOS it will be a third vehicle, and a "toy" car for us, so it will likely never see a winters day. It will be tucked away snug and warm in the garage.
However I concur with the rest of the respondents, if you live in an area that experiences any amount of winter driving conditions, a good set of specialized winter tires is a "must have" for maximum control and safety on ice and snow.
Recent winters in Alberta have included lots of freezing rain so I run studded winter tires on both our Honda Odyssey (fwd) and Dodge Ram pickup (4x4). (Nokian Hakepelitta, I highly recommend them)
If you live in an area that doesn't allow studded tires, the compound (special rubber) tires also work very well. (Bridgestone Blizzak, Michelin X Ice, etc.)
One quick caution, remember that winter tires will improve your handling and stopping ability, but 98% of the other drivers out there don't have them. Just because you can stop, doesn't mean they can.
Even with winter tires tires installed, the best approach to winter driving is to slow down and adjust to the conditions.








Kevin



_Modified by just4fun at 6:54 PM 11-20-2006_


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## Grinder (Feb 6, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Micheal
You are correct. Thibeau hill on the nothe side of the city is where Highway 11 heads up north. It is where the nearby VW dealer sends you on tests drives to show of the broad power band ot their products. The main issue on that hill seems to be coming down and not up as a few transports have gone through the intersection below with brakes that have heated up and are failing; now there is a gravel emergency lane. 
Anyways, while going up is good, coming to a stop that is of most concern to me 
Paul


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Grinder)*

Small world - I grew up in North Bay, on Trout Lake. That was a long time ago, when the Americans had their big base in the other hill there.
Michael


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## Grinder (Feb 6, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

The base is still there, though the Canadians have been runnning it for as long as I can remember. It is now obsolete, and a political football whether to close it or what to do with it.
255 wide winter tires wow







that sounds almost as crazy as driving allseasons at that width. Though if your vehicle weighs 50% or more than the EOS a weight over width ratio is probably higher. The pressure that you run them at would be a factor in the contact patch. Come to think of the pressure, I better have that cleared up when I go to the garage for mine. I expect that it is less than the 37psi the door panel recommends for the 18inch wheels. Maybe the manual indicates this.








Paul


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Grinder)*

Hi Paul:
There will be a tire pressure sticker either on the driver door 'B' pillar (that is the American law), or on the inside of the gas cap flap (that is the practice followed in the rest of the world). Keep in mind that as a result of the "TREAD" act that was passed by the US Government a few years ago following all the Ford Explorer rollover problems, auto manufacturers are now obliged to only give the tire pressure recommendation for a fully loaded vehicle - they are forbidden from recommending pressures for a partial loaded vehicle. In the case of the Eos, the full load would be 4 passengers plus luggage.
Sometimes you will see partial load pressures shown on pictures of European cars - I'll try to get a photo of a tire pressure sticker from a European Eos later this week.
As for my car - I think it is probably twice the weight of an Eos, it is 5,400 lbs empty. I run the winter tires at 45 PSI, that is the half load recommendation. Full load is 49 PSI, which sounds very high until you consider that with a full load, the car is close to 6,000 pounds.
Michael


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## Grinder (Feb 6, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Yes the door sticker says 37psi front and back for the 235/40/18 tires that came with it. I do not recall reading a full load half load variance. If I put narrower tires with a smaller wheel, I suspect that there is a lower tire pressure reccomended; except the sticker does not detail this. The owners manual is silent on tire pressure. I would venture that 32psi is about right but would expect with the safety issues around tire pressures that this would be documented somewhere.
Paul


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## flheat (Sep 29, 2006)

*Re: (Grinder)*

My Low Tire Pressure light goes on if they drop below 36PSI


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Grinder)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Grinder* »_...I do not recall reading a full load half load variance. ... The owners manual is silent on tire pressure...

There is no half-load recommendation published in North America, because the US government forbids the car manufacturers from publishing any tire pressure specification other than full load inflation pressure.
The owner manual is silent on the matter, because the US legislation states that tire pressure must be given on a sticker that is placed on the forward-facing side of the driver door B pillar. Everything about that sticker - right down to the colour used and the design of the little tire symbol on the sticker - is specified by the US government in the TREAD Act legislation.
I'll see if I can take some photos of European inflation specs during the next week, and post them here. They will have both half and full load recommendations, based on the opinion of VW engineering staff. There will probably be two different sets of figures - one for the 'heavy' Eos with the 3.2 engine, and the other for the 'light' Eos with the smaller engines.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (flheat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flheat* »_My Low Tire Pressure light goes on if they drop below 36PSI... 

Again, that's because the TREAD Act legislation sets minimum pressure thresholds that the TPMS must provide a warning at. The minimum thresholds are either a percentage of full load inflation (door sticker pressure), or a certain number of PSI lower than door sticker pressure - I don't know exactly what criteria is used.
For other vehicles, such as the Phaeton, the TPMS controller can be coded to indicate whether it is installed in a US car (full load pressures only), or installed in a Rest of World car (driver is allowed to set half load pressures if he/she wishes). I don't yet know how the Eos controller is coded, but if you want an overview of how the controller works (principles of operation, what triggers warnings, etc.), you can look at this thread in the Phaeton forum: Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS) - Design and Function. Although the general theory will be the same for both cars, keep in mind that the Eos is a much, much more modern car than the Phaeton. So, there have probably been quite a few technical advances over the last 5 years - by example, I would not be surprised if the Eos only has one antenna in the car to listen to all 5 wheels, rather than the 4 antennas that are in the Phaeton.
Also, the fact that no-one has ever posted a note here in the forum about problems with the Eos TPMS suggests to me that the software that runs the system has been greatly refined since the system was first introduced on the Phaeton about 5 years ago.
Michael


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## Eosiphat (Nov 8, 2006)

I think the Eos probably uses an indirect TPMS where the ABS readings are compared with one another to signal if one wheel is rotating at a slightly different speed to the other three because of pressure loss - the Phaeton uses a direct TPMS with pressure sensors in each wheel I believe - just as a check to see if it is a direct or indirect system, does an Eos with TPMS have sensors built into the wheels and will the system tell you if the spare is flat? - if not, it is most likely indirect.
Michael


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: (Eosiphat)*

When all else fails, check the sidewall of the tire. The tire manufacturer will (usually) display the recommended tire pressure range there.
This would be the easiest way to determine correct tire pressure range if you have installed tires of a size other than EOM.
It will also provide an indication of the safe tire pressure range for the OEM tires, regardless of what US legislation states.
Hopefully the indicated range will allow for a tire pressure that will satisfy the TPMS. 
The individual vehicle owner will need to determine the pressure setting for their particular needs. 
Set pressures near the lower end of the range for lighter loads, softer ride, or improved traction on snow or ice. Set the pressure closer to high end of the range for heavier loads or aggresive driving.








Kevin


_Modified by just4fun at 6:42 PM 11-21-2006_


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## gilesrulz (Nov 2, 2006)

*Re: (Eosiphat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Eosiphat* »_ just as a check to see if it is a direct or indirect system, does an Eos with TPMS have sensors built into the wheels and will the system tell you if the spare is flat? - if not, it is most likely indirect.

I'm fairly sure that there are sensors in each tire (built into the valve stem), but that the spare "tire" does not since in the US, at least, it is a 'donut', not a full size tire.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (just4fun)*


_Quote, originally posted by *just4fun* »_The individual vehicle owner will need to determine the pressure setting for their particular needs...

That sounds like extraordinarily sensible advice, but, the US owners are not allowed to do that anymore. They are obliged to use only the pressures that the US government (not VW engineering) specify, and the TPMS is set up such that the owner cannot calibrate it to any setting other than the one that the government says to use. That explains why the 'TPMS Set Pressure Button' is missing from the US specification cars.
It's the same kind of legislation that is behind the airbag system. In the Rest of World markets, the owner can turn the front passenger airbag on or off with a key-switch, as they see fit. In the USA, that is forbidden by law - the seat has a weight-sensing pad on it, and the government trusts only the weight sensing pad, not the judgment of the owner.
Michael


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
That sounds like extraordinarily sensible advice, Michael

Well, that kind of sucks for our friends in the US, hopefully on the Canadian spec EOS the TPMS can either be adjusted, or turned off, allowing for flexibility and choice.


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## Grinder (Feb 6, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Thank you Michael for your offer to look at a european door sticker. I have also posted a separate question on this. My 2003 Passat had the full and half load pressures on the sticker. Again, I think that the government is asking for trouble if they are apparently withholding information about other wheel/tire size pressures.
A comment about the sidewall indcated pressure mentioned above. My understanding is that this is a maximum pressure and not relavent for the optimal pressure for a particular vehicle.
Paul


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: (Grinder)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Grinder* »_A comment about the sidewall indcated pressure mentioned above. My understanding is that this is a maximum pressure and not relavent for the optimal pressure for a particular vehicle.
Paul

Thanks Paul, I stand corrected.
The values indicated on the sidewall of the tire are indeed max tire inflation pressure and max load values.
The recommended tire inflation range I was refering to, was in fact, listed on the door sticker (I knew I'd seen it somewhere). On my Canadian spec 2006 Dodge Ram it gives both light load, and heavy load, recommended tire inflation pressures. 
Not sure if this is unique to pick up trucks, or whether or not US spec vehicles would have the option of adjusting to a load range, the regulations appear to be stricter South of the 49th.
I assume if you stay within the range, you should minimize the chances of unusual tire wear, or erratic handling characteristics.
Fairly certain the EOS would not list a tire pressure range, this would likely not work well with the TPMS, unless it is adjustable, as mentioned above.









Kevin
_Modified by just4fun at 6:18 PM 11-22-2006_


_Modified by just4fun at 6:21 PM 11-22-2006_


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## neweosowner (Nov 25, 2006)

*Re: Winter driving (just4fun)*

Driven the Eos for a month on snow (almost all city, but includes 300km with 5 cm of snow in the passing lane) and haven't had any problems. DSC is working well, anti-lock brakes keep stopping simple. I've left the all-seasons on because I don't anticipate highway/freeway driving more than three times this winter, but I'll continue to evaluate that decision throughout the winter. It helps that the city streets are often _snow_ with gravel and not _ice_ - anyone who's spent time with cold weather driving understands that cold packed snow is far less of an issue than ice is. 
Pro's:
Excellent steering control at low speeds (< 30 mph).
Good braking distance when tested.
Cornering seemed very solid.
Con's:
Definite loss of control over 60 mph with the all-seasons. However, still steers very true and doesn't jump around when braking. Passing trucks @ 120 kph wasn't fun...but didn't seem dangerous.
Lane changes are hit-and-miss with the relative lack of weight.
To be determined:
Hard steering under braking on less-than-ideal surface. First test wasn't what I had hoped (again, winter tires would make a big difference).
Oh yah...the engine braking isn't a bad feature to slow the car down in icy situations. Love those shifter paddles....


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Winter driving (neweosowner)*

Hi Arylnn:
Thanks for the winter report, and welcome to the Eos forum.
You mentioned that you have paddle shifters - do those come as standard equipment on all Eos, or are they an option, or do they only come with certain equipment packages?
Michael


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## owr084 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: Winter driving (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Hi Arylnn:
Thanks for the winter report, and welcome to the Eos forum.
You mentioned that you have paddle shifters - do those come as standard equipment on all Eos, or are they an option, or do they only come with certain equipment packages?
Michael

Sport Package only on the 2.0T with a DSG. Not sure on the 3.2


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Winter driving (owr084)*

I wasn't sure whether to post this under winter driving, or window gremlins. but I had a thought today while on my way to work....
As any of us that drive in winter conditions are aware, side windows can freeze shut due to a build up of ice along the bottom outer seal of the window. This is caused by small amounts of snow along the seal thawing from the interior heat of the vehicle, then re-freezing when the vehicle cools off.
For those who drive the EOS, or any other convertible with auto roll down feature, on a year round basis, this is something you will need to watch out for.
If the window is frozen closed, and doesn't roll down that required few mm upon unlocking the door, you could damage the upper seals (the ones being caught by the "window gremlins") when opening or closing the door.
This may not be a huge problem for the convertible savvy driver, who would likely notice and not open the door. But if you happen to have an uninitiated passenger along, they could open and close the door before you realize what happened.
Careful cleaning of all snow and ice from around the lower seals will help, but, something to think about all the same.








Kevin


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## neweosowner (Nov 25, 2006)

*Re: Winter driving (PanEuropean)*

Thanks for the welcome, and a big thanks for all of your posts in this forum.
My vehicle comes with the Sport package in Canada...ergo paddles. Whether they come standard or not anywhere else in the world on any other package I'm not sure about...as I recall, the paddles come only w/ the Sport package in Canada. (Reminder: no luxury package, no 3.2L in Canada.) I did not see them as an option.
The paddles offer a second way to shift gears on the DSG. The first is to move the gear shift into sport-mode/Tiptronic and perform manual shifting. In this mode, I think the gear you select stays until you hit the rev limiter. You can select gears with or without the paddles in this mode.
With the paddles and the vehicle in Drive or Sport (not Tiptronic), you can shift up or down, and that gear will hold for about 15 seconds (or until your next selection). After that, the car takes over and handles gear selection again. You also have the ability to turn off the manual gear selection by holding down the right paddle for one second.
The only reason I mention this is that it's terribly convenient to make a single gear shift using the paddles - just touch a paddle, make the one gear change, and the car takes over after that. If you want to manage gear selection for more than 15 seconds...slide the gear shift into Tiptronic and have at 'er. I think that's a great feature....


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Winter driving (neweosowner)*

Thanks for explaining all that.
I have paddle shifters on my VW (I retrofitted them). I find that they are useful for slowing the car down gently if I am coming up behind another car on the highway and I don't want to hit the brakes - I just tap the downshift paddle, and the car slows down. After about 15 seconds it goes back to normal automatic transmission behaviour - or, I can switch it back to normal automatic transmission behaviour faster by just moving the center shift lever to the right (into the Tiptronic gate) and then back to the left (to the normal position).
Do be careful about downshifting too much in snow, though - I tried that once, and the car got a bit confused. Two downshifts in a row created more engine drag than the tires could cope with on the snow-covered surface, and the car started to slide a bit. At this point, the ESP (electronic stability program) came to life, and I can just imagine what the conversation was like over the CAN (Controller Area Network) data bus, between the ESP system, the ABS controller, the engine controller, and the transmission controller...
*ESP system:* _WTF is going on!!!_








*ABS system:* _I don't know, but it sure won't help if I apply brakes..._








*Transmission Controller: *_It's not my fault, the bone-head behind the steering wheel just made two downshifts in a row._








*Engine Controller: *_About all I can do is add power, that will bring the wheels back up to the right speed - but do you really want me to do that in the middle of a four wheel drift?_








*ESP system:* _OMG - I think we had better wake up the airbag controller, I've got a feeling we're going to need them soon..._


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Winter driving (PanEuropean)*

ROTFL


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## [email protected] (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: Winter driving (mark_d_drake)*

LMAO


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Winter driving (PanEuropean)*

Too Funny!!


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## BigFoot-74205 (Jan 26, 2006)

*Re: Winter driving (just4fun)*

Michael,
That was priceless.








Damir


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Winter driving (BigFoot-74205)*

Of course with the EOS the ESP may need to put the roll over protections system on standby too...


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