# Cams?



## ZombiePornoMags (Aug 7, 2013)

Does anyone know if there are performance cams in the werks for the 2.5l 5 cylinder engine? Could we use ttrs cams?


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## HollisJoy (Dec 26, 2011)

Short Answer: No.
A few companies have looked into producing cams for the 2.5L. 
Integrated Engineering is the only remaining company still looking into it.

Read about it here...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-s-2-5L-20V-I5-product-and-new-release-thread


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## Alpha27 (Jul 23, 2013)

An what about TTRS camshaft ? Anobody had try them ? They are probably expensive but do they fit,even with slight modification(fuel pump lobe ?)


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

Even if you could put in a ttrs cam it would be less effective than the cam we have. a stock turbo motor will have less duration than a stock n/a motor. or so im told anyway.


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## [email protected] (Aug 18, 2011)

Stop worrying about cams and buy a short runner intake manifold paired with sri-specific software. :thumbup:
Stiffer motor mounts and a new clutch with a lightweight flywheel would help too.


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## G I Jew (Oct 10, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Stop worrying about cams and buy a short runner intake manifold paired with sri-specific software. :thumbup:
> Stiffer motor mounts and a new clutch with a lightweight flywheel would help too.


About the clutch, do you guys carry any stage 1 or 2 daily clutches with a single mass flywheel? Got the rest your list done, which I have to say, it a good list, the BFI mounts are tits. But I'm going to be wanting to do a clutch in the next year or so, didn't know if you guys had anything like that. I can get a single mass flywheel conversion with a stock clutch through work for pretty cheap, but would like to get a better performing one.


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## [email protected] (Aug 18, 2011)

G I Jew said:


> About the clutch, do you guys carry any stage 1 or 2 daily clutches with a single mass flywheel? ...


Sure do!

*Stage 1*
*Stage 2*


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

great pricing!

Thats the one thing i dont like about the 6spd. My clutch set up (FX400) was ~1300 $


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## [email protected] (Aug 18, 2011)

thygreyt said:


> great pricing!
> 
> Thats the one thing i dont like about the 6spd. My clutch set up (FX400) was ~1300 $


You're right, existing 02M/02Q clutch prices are pretty high. 
We have 02M/02Q clutches in the development pipeline and hope to make them much more budget friendly.

p.s. Sorry OP for hijacking your thread!


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## Alpha27 (Jul 23, 2013)

DerekH said:


> Even if you could put in a ttrs cam it would be less effective than the cam we have. a stock turbo motor will have less duration than a stock n/a motor. or so im told anyway.



It would be nice to compare both camshaft spec. My BGP redline at 5800 rpm and by 5000rpm your waiting to reach 5800, the TTR-S spin 6800rpm max


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## [email protected] (Aug 18, 2011)

Alpha27 said:


> It would be nice to compare both camshaft spec. My BGP redline at 5800 rpm and by 5000rpm your waiting to reach 5800, the TTR-S spin 6800rpm max


A short runner intake and software and any 2.5l (except Tiptronic) will make power to 7,500rpm.


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## G I Jew (Oct 10, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> A short runner intake and software and any 2.5l (except Tiptronic) will make power to 7,500rpm.


If you don't throw the belt off before you get there :laugh:


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## [email protected] (Aug 18, 2011)

G I Jew said:


> If you don't throw the belt off before you get there :laugh:


My '08 saw 7,500rpm regularly with an SRI both naturally aspirated and turbocharged. Never chucked a belt with ~25k combined between both setups.


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## G I Jew (Oct 10, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> My '08 saw 7,500rpm regularly with an SRI both naturally aspirated and turbocharged. Never chucked a belt with ~25k combined between both setups.


Mine hasn't yet either, but I usually only run up to about 7 in first and second, and maybe third. Never really go that fast in fourth because thats not legal yet


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

Alpha27 said:


> It would be nice to compare both camshaft spec. My BGP redline at 5800 rpm and by 5000rpm your waiting to reach 5800, the TTR-S spin 6800rpm max


I'm trying to understand why you have decided that the cam is what is making it rev higher and that it couldn't be something else.


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## Alpha27 (Jul 23, 2013)

DerekH said:


> I'm trying to understand why you have decided that the cam is what is making it rev higher and that it couldn't be something else.


You can rev it to 8k if you want but you will not make power and it will be boring ! Do you understand what camshaft do in engine ? Have you ever camme an engine ?Sure with variable cam phasing we can cheat the the overlap but that it. The 2.5 is a torquey engine by design (long stroke, not a revver) I just want to compare spec between cams .


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## Alpha27 (Jul 23, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> My '08 saw 7,500rpm regularly with an SRI both naturally aspirated and turbocharged. Never chucked a belt with ~25k combined between both setups.


Is it still pulling strong after 5-6k , the N/A ? Do yoh have a dyno sheet ?


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

Alpha27 said:


> Is it still pulling strong after 5-6k , the N/A ? Do yoh have a dyno sheet ?


thats the whole point behind the aftermarket intake manifolds. 

oh, here is a dyno of MY NA 2.5, and later 2.5T (8psi of boost)


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## Alpha27 (Jul 23, 2013)

Ok, so the intake manifold is really choking this engine !

But I'm still wondering what a good set of cams can do to this engine like in the old days of shrick cammed vr6 or 2.0l-16V. I know the benefit of short runner intake manifold but you have to get this air into the combustion chamber, that's the point for my thinking about the camshaft.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

Alpha27 said:


> Ok, so the intake manifold is really choking this engine !.


lol, yes it is.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Stop worrying about cams and buy a short runner intake manifold paired with sri-specific software. :thumbup:
> Stiffer motor mounts and a new clutch with a lightweight flywheel would help too.


But I want cams!!! 

I want a manifold and cams and a FrankenTurbo! I want them ALL and I want them NOW :vampire:


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## G I Jew (Oct 10, 2011)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> But I want cams!!!
> 
> I want a manifold and cams and a FrankenTurbo! I want them ALL and I want them NOW :vampire:


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## killerbunny (Jul 10, 2008)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> But I want cams!!!
> 
> I want a manifold and cams and a FrankenTurbo! I want them ALL and I want them NOW :vampire:


Rabbid there is a guy running an f23 on our platform. He seems to be liking it, but I don't know if he post here.

And yes cams would be nice.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

killerbunny said:


> Rabbid there is a guy running an f23 on our platform. He seems to be liking it, but I don't know if he post here.
> 
> And yes cams would be nice.


With what manifold?


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## killerbunny (Jul 10, 2008)

Everything is custom as far as I know.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

thygreyt said:


> thats the whole point behind the aftermarket intake manifolds.
> 
> oh, here is a dyno of MY NA 2.5, *and later 2.5T (8psi of boost)*


Can you clarify what this graph is comparing? Because it looks to me as though this is simply a before/after for turbocharging. Take the forced induction out of the picture and you get what with an expensive intake manifold?



Alpha27 said:


> Ok, so the intake manifold is really choking this engine !
> 
> But I'm still wondering what a good set of cams can do to this engine like in the old days of shrick cammed vr6 or 2.0l-16V. I know the benefit of short runner intake manifold but you have to get this air into the combustion chamber, that's the point for my thinking about the camshaft.


I keep hearing that the stock intake manifold hampers any performance modification project. The runner length is purportedly "tuned" wrong for added horsepower. Is there any documentation for this theory?


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Can you clarify what this graph is comparing? Because it looks to me as though this is simply a before/after for turbocharging. Take the forced induction out of the picture and you get what with an expensive intake manifold?


The dynos are for NA + SRI and turbo +SRI.

all it shows is the powerband NOT falling short at 5k RPMs

this is a dyno of a stock car, stock intake mani.











in short, the oem manifold is great for the low end (it has higher peak tq)... but it compromises the top end.

So, with the expensive manifold you get higher rpm capabilities, and a flatter torque curve (NA).


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> . . . .


Doug, it doesn't prevent making power, it prevents making power above about 5500RPM. With an aftermarket manifold the motor makes power until the valves float and the belts jump at about 8,000RPM.


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## Alpha27 (Jul 23, 2013)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> Doug, it doesn't prevent making power, it prevents making power above about 5500RPM. With an aftermarket manifold the motor makes power until the valves float and the belts jump at about 8,000RPM.


If the car oem redline is 5800-6100 rpm I assume that the valve float at this max rpm. Car maker tend to use softer valve spring to reduce internal friction. What's confuse me are those dyno chart !! Probably with camshaft will be even more higher


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Alpha27 said:


> If the car oem redline is 5800-6100 rpm I assume that the valve float at this max rpm. Car maker tend to use softer valve spring to reduce internal friction. What's confuse me are those dyno chart !! Probably with camshaft will be even more higher


Valve float happens on this motor at 8K


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> Valve float happens on this motor at 8K



I disagree.

I have run full stock motors well past 8K without real issue. 

On the stock cam they dont flow well, and toss the serp. belt when u spend time over ~7500, but no valve float at 8k.


With cams, at least the cam set Ive tested myself, airflow is still improving past 9K. :thumbup:


-Jeffrey Atwood


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## killerbunny (Jul 10, 2008)

9k. Oh yes. 

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Jefnes3 said:


> With cams, at least the cam set Ive tested myself, airflow is still improving past 9K. :thumbup:
> 
> 
> -Jeffrey Atwood


Jeff, do those cams you tested run on the stock valve train or do they need a built head?

And what is the ETA on increasing the rev limit on the 2013-2014 ECUs?

I'm game for a 9K red line with a single belt conversion kit :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

They require a fully built head, the valve guides to be installed deeper to make room for more lift, and poison to valve clearance to be checked. Very tight to the valve notches in the piston especially with oversize valves. Also, our spring kit is the only one that can handle the lift we use. 9500 to 9750 is a good Rev limit with this setup and a big turbo.

I wouldn't trust this setup to any old engine builder, lots to check and adjust. 

Caste systems, Bluewater and Jeff are all running the same cams.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> They require a fully built head, the valve guides to be installed deeper to make room for more lift, and poison to valve clearance to be checked. Very tight to the valve notches in the piston especially with oversize valves. Also, our spring kit is the only one that can handle the lift we use. 9500 to 9750 is a good Rev limit with this setup and a big turbo.
> 
> I wouldn't trust this setup to any old engine builder, lots to check and adjust.
> 
> Caste systems, Bluewater and Jeff are all running the same cams.


When does valve float occur on the OEM head?


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## Alpha27 (Jul 23, 2013)

Are we talking 9-10k rpm on a long stroke engine with a rod lenght ratio of 1.55:1 ? What about piston speed ? And vibration ?


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## biggerbigben (Jan 21, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> They require a fully built head, the valve guides to be installed deeper to make room for more lift, and poison to valve clearance to be checked. Very tight to the valve notches in the piston especially with oversize valves. Also, our spring kit is the only one that can handle the lift we use. 9500 to 9750 is a good Rev limit with this setup and a big turbo.
> 
> I wouldn't trust this setup to any old engine builder, lots to check and adjust.
> 
> Caste systems, Bluewater and Jeff are all running the same cams.


Music to my ears.. When do you think these will be available to us none businesses? :wave:


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Alpha27 said:


> Are we talking 9-10k rpm on a long stroke engine with a rod lenght ratio of 1.55:1 ? What about piston speed ? And vibration ?



Yes, those sort of RPM's are not an issue with this particular geometry. Been done for years upon years, as VW never really starts over with their design work. With big power, vibration is an issue- on older engines lots of timing belt drive issues, but the 2.5L stuff is very tough. Massive hardware holding it all together, truly a huge step forward. 

For example, in a 1.8t, a single M10 bolt holds on the cam pulley, which drives both cams. It's unfortunately not that uncommon for the cam gear to spin on big power / high rpm setups. Those cams have 8 very large double valve springs, 12 small ones, and a whole crapload of cam on flat tappet friction. 

On the 2.5L, two large M14 threaded bolts clamp each sprocket to the end of each cam. A much larger bolt for less then half the load. 

Quality rod bolts are important- I wouldn't consider revving that high on factory rods and pistons. In fact, we did go to 9300 once or twice on a stock short block testing these and that's all we dared, cleaning up a dyno room just didn't sound worth it.


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## Alpha27 (Jul 23, 2013)

Ok thank, that explain why lambo V10 are revving so high on a same bore/stroke


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