# MORE 8v Power



## 84GLIRacer (Feb 10, 2008)

This is new to me, but is there anything I should know about Hot heads , big valves and light weight parts. Thinking ,oh yeah JH ABA NA 10.1 ,,,,maybe tt's 41x34mm valves or 40x33mm . Any pointers or problems for going big. any thing outside of the head that needs to accompany the upgrade. are the HP gains worth it. In the end I am looking for more 8v N/A power.

Thanks 

Open to other ideas ,,NA ,, somewhat streetable


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## ds1919 (Oct 13, 2004)

Well, the sky is the limit, but so is your pocketbook, and so are the state/local regulations, and so is your driving preferences. So...what that means is your question is kinda too general. Some folks want the biggest cam, the biggest valves and the free'est flowing intake/exhaust for a good strip/drag engine. That most likely wont work for you for street driving. I think I know what you would like to get in terms of HP and reliability and drivability tho:

The ABA 2.0 block is a good choice, go with the OBD1 block for better oiling.
The 3A 2.0 audi bubble block is good too.

You can get aftermarket cranks to increase hp, but it starts to cost $$$$.

For heads, a G60 head seems to have a better cast and its just as modifiable as other 8v counterflow heads. Dont go too large on the valve size tho, because you will lose low rpm velocity, and city driving will suffer. 

Expect to see around 150 to 170hp on a NA built 2.0l. You can get more, but it will cost much more and you will sacrifice low end or drivability. But the torque curve these put out make you think you have more hp!

How much work are you willing to do? Can you port match the intake and exhaust to the head ports? 
You can also install 7mm guides on the head and run the crossflow ABA valves for better flow, but you must do some cutting around the seats.

Also, depending on what you are driving (low compression mk1, or higher compression motor with knock), some mods are easier to do than others...

Best to do a few weeks worth of research and using the SEARCH funtion


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

84GLIRacer said:


> This is new to me, but is there anything I should know about Hot heads , big valves and light weight parts. Thinking ,oh yeah JH ABA NA 10.1 ,,,,maybe tt's 41x34mm valves or 40x33mm . Any pointers or problems for going big. any thing outside of the head that needs to accompany the upgrade. are the HP gains worth it. In the end I am looking for more 8v N/A power.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Open to other ideas ,,NA ,, somewhat streetable


This is a pretty popular topic, so I'd suggest a search. Look for a thread something like: "Definitive cheap ass buildup".

Now, off the top of my head I can suggest the following (sorry, it's going to be very rough)

Are you building a motor on a stand to swap in, or is this going to be a series of upgrades to an installed motor? (sounds like a build on the side for later swap)...

Speaking strictly of a naturally aspirated 8v, the ABA block topped with a JH head is a pretty popular way to go and offers a lot of potential for power. Next up would probably be the ABA with a big valve hydro head. Difference is that the solid lifter offers more potential for huge nasty cams, and a higher rev limit (given you can flow the air to justify it). In my opinion, a well built hydro head should be just as good for a street driven motor. A hydro head is a lot easier to come across, and might be slightly less expensive to build.

For valve sizes: I'll let someone else chime in on this one, but I can say that going with enormous valves is not as beneficial as you'd think. I believe that a +1mm oversize on intake and exhaust is worthwhile, but anything larger would only be necessary if the head, intake, and exhaust systems are extensively modified to require it. Also keep in mind that the JH solid lifter heads already have issues with cracking between the valves - be careful.

Also in my opinion, the counterflow heads are where it's at if you want to go all NA power. It will definitely require a port and polish by a knowledgeable builder to make it worthwhile. Or, buy a Eurospec head.

There are people who really like the Audi 2.0L blocks (I believe the 3A). These have the advantage of having a lower deck height, making them a smooth fit into a Mk1 without throttle body clearance issues. Downside is that they are nowhere near as common as the ABA block, and I'm not certain if they came with oil squirters.

If you want to stick with mostly OEM parts on the bottom end, that should be sufficient for a street motor. I'd highly suggest having the rotating assembly (crank, rods, pistons) balanced, and lightened if you have the spare $$$. Use a lightweight flywheel - a lightened OEM flywheel is nice, and easy to drive. Don't waste time/$ on a stock 8v Sachs pressure plate. I had one and blew the straps within a day on a lightly modified 2.0L 8v. Go for a 16v pressure plate, or one with thicker straps.

If you have the spare money, have the intermediate shaft lightened/balanced. Bolt on a lightweight intermediate gear (TT sells a nice one) and get the Autotech lightweight adjustable cam gear. Just my opinion, but don't waste your time with the adjustable cam gears that are a cut stock gear with a metal plate on front - they weigh a ton. Autotech one is worth the $$$.

Send a PM to NY_Fam. He ports out stock intake manifolds and gets balanced flow, and increased flow overall. Tell him what you're planning for the motor, as you may be better off with his stage III rather than a stage I.

Don't get overzealous with your camshaft sizing. Bigger is not always better. There is a lot of discussion on this, so I won't bother going off memory and saying something that's incorrect.

Don't forget your transaxle - a LSD is a worthwhile upgrade, as well as a crisp shifter linkage setup. The USRT or Missing Linkz kits are great, and worth the money doing it right the first time.

Of course, make sure the car is in good shape - good brakes and suspension, no busted bushings, etc.

This is just the first stuff that comes to mind. There have been a LOT of good discussions in this forum.

If I've said anything incorrect, someone please chime in. I try to avoid spreading mis-information.


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## 84GLIRacer (Feb 10, 2008)

thankyou for the reply,, good info ,, 

I have a 84 Gli
obd1 aba 
JH head 
No knock , if that matters, it runs great 10.1
stock Cam 272 ideal
1mm + valves is what I was thinking
16v plate got it
in and out is setup for high flow,,,,But not the head
No drag all hill climbs for fun no need to be #1


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## ds1919 (Oct 13, 2004)

here's another factor, you can do a aba block with a PL 16v head on top. This is the creme de la creme, because you have displacement, great air flow (the head), and a long stroke crank for torque. There are threads on this buildup here.

Then you can run twin Schrick cams! But then you WILL need a hardened tranny with LSD ($3000). 

Basically, the more you mod the engine, the more the rest of the car needs upgrades for safety and reliability, and you can eventually end up with a $10,000 project. Or, a very fast $1000 death machine lol!


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

ds1919 said:


> Expect to see around 150 to 170hp on a NA built 2.0l. You can get more, but it will cost much more and you will sacrifice low end or drivability. But the torque curve these put out make you think you have more hp!


I was with you until this statement. The highest whp 2.0 8v here is 178whp, and it's NOT streetable. It's a drag car, and the owner will say the same thing. Once you hit the 150whp mark, you have a VERY undriveable car, and more thousands invested than you'd ever imagine. On a built ABA, designed to remain driveable on the street, the max you'd see with a WELL tuned/built setup would be 130whp. There's a fellow by the name of Tdogg64 (IIRC) in the 2.0 forums that made ~140whp and he admitted to the fact that it was pretty much less fun on the street than he wanted. This is after (again) THOUSANDS of dollars invested in headwork and intake manifold mods. He's one of the most knowledgeable people out there in regards to ABA mods, and camshaft specs.


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## vento86 (Oct 13, 2008)

TDogg74 his aba was 160ish at the FLYWHEEL. he made 145hp at the WHEELS. its all in the head of the motor. the more flow the more go. /thread


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## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

cam info


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...height-vs-lift.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...-276-or-to-288
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...lvespring-info
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...II-ABA-engines
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...-Your-thoughts.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...and-TT-288-cam

And everyone had something to say about the motor but what injection does the OP plan on running because this will make a big difference in the street drive-ability depending on the size of the cam and tuningopcorn::beer:


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## ds1919 (Oct 13, 2004)

i know a guy on here that made 180+ hp in a drag rocco, using an n/a 8v. It was a budget build except for the head, ported beyond your imagination. 
So, okay for the sake of your argument, I'll change it to " expect to see around 120-150hp"......


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## ds1919 (Oct 13, 2004)

Svedka said:


> cam info
> 
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...height-vs-lift.
> ...


Svedka, the links arent working....


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## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

ds1919 said:


> i know a guy on here that made 180+ hp in a drag rocco, using an n/a 8v. It was a budget build except for the head, ported beyond your imagination.
> So, okay for the sake of your argument, I'll change it to " expect to see around 120-150hp"......


no proof = it never happened


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## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4985252-To-276-or-to-288
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4966762-TECH-Camshaft-and-Valvespring-info
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3875757-OBDI-vs-OBDII-ABA-engines
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4696004-TECH-OBDII-Valve-Springs.-Installed-height-vs-lift
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5021770-TT-266-Autotech-270-vs-TT-268-Your-thoughts.


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## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

not sure what happened but these worked


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## ds1919 (Oct 13, 2004)

Svedka said:


> no proof = it never happened


fair enough, I'll look for the link. I bought some stuff from him too (the drag tranny).


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## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4960244-What-to-do-next-8v-2.0L-N-A

:beer:opcorn:


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

ds1919 said:


> i know a guy on here that made 180+ hp in a drag rocco, using an n/a 8v. It was a budget build except for the head, ported beyond your imagination.
> So, okay for the sake of your argument, I'll change it to " expect to see around 120-150hp"......


It was MkIIRoc...and it was far from a budget build. 14:1 compression, 306* cam, etc etc etc.


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## ds1919 (Oct 13, 2004)

Svedka said:


> no proof = it never happened


okay here's a link to one of his threads, its a n/a 8v motor with a wicked head. Actually made 177+ hp, but in another thread I think he made 183hp, but Im too lazy to find it.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4837826-FS-Eurospec-Stage-III-8v-head-Extreme-Horsepower!


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## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

B4S said:


> It was MkIIRoc...and it was far from a budget build. 14:1 compression, 306* cam, etc etc etc.


and not street driven


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## ds1919 (Oct 13, 2004)

here's one where he says he's getting 180hp

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4537630-10-second-A-M-8v


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## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

Yes I know he got the 175-180 hp mark down, but you said budget and street and neither of theses can be in the same statement as his car :thumbup::laugh::laugh::beer:

That said his rocco is a 8v beast and makes me want to do more to mine:thumbup:


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## ds1919 (Oct 13, 2004)

B4S said:


> It was MkIIRoc...and it was far from a budget build. 14:1 compression, 306* cam, etc etc etc.


yup, and no it was a trailor queen. But I thought at present that the debate was what was possible for an n/a 8v, not if its streetable (as the OP wanted earlier). And no, it was not a budget engine, you're right, I just forgot the work and $$$ and time he put into it.


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## ds1919 (Oct 13, 2004)

so, Svedka, getting back to the OP's inquiries, what would be a good injection/mgmt setup with a mildly built motor? should he stay with the stock setup? Is it worth upgrading to megasquirt, or a later/earlier CIS or motronic? 

I would suggest he run water/meth no matter what tho....


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## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

Water /meth will require more work and standalone so for a streetable car I would say no if it was boosted then water/meth would be a must.

As for a jh on a aba standalone will give you the most options and be able to redirect your build at any time, you wont need to buy a new chip every time you upgrade. Also standalone lets you run either a Pentium style manifold or ITB's 

Euro CIS with a retrofitted knockbox is a cheap easy solution but tuning will be very limited I would suggest buying a wideband 02 to make sure your not to lean at WOT high RPM with the solid lifter
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?424779

Carbs are always an option and make really good power.
http://store.blackforestindustries.com/we8vsidccaki.html
http://store.blackforestindustries.com/spavw8vcainm.html
http://store.blackforestindustries.com/spa8vcainmat.html

I personally wouldn't waste my time trying to make power out of digi2 and chips for digi 1 or obd1 range from 150$-500$ thats more than a DIY megasquirt, so unless you can remap your own ecu on digi 1 or obd1 MS would be the best option.

To make more power I would deck the head get a lightened flywheel lighten and balance the IM shaft do 1 mm oversized valves with a 276-296 solid lifter cam spend the money on a really nice P&P the most gains will be from this.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...read.-looking-for-proper-specs-for-a-good-p-p

whatever you do match the intake manifold to the head and buy a nice header or manifold to help flow


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## 84GLIRacer (Feb 10, 2008)

Thanks everyone , good info, Some big numbers... but what my goals where to meet 120-130 WHP, that's it. Right now I have aba lower 84 jh head, flow in and out ( not the head) opened up. stock cam??? dies at 4K . trying to keep it visually legal. CA....

Thanks


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## ds1919 (Oct 13, 2004)

yeah I live in CA also, I know what you mean. You cannot do a header, but the dual outlet mani will work well. Scientific Rabbit (ny_fam) makes an excellent intake mani well worth its weight in gold. With the ABA and JH, you'll want to get a knock setup from a later 8v. 

See if you can source a good head here for sale. I found my Eurospec and RPI heads here at great prices...


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## 84GLIRacer (Feb 10, 2008)

DS , yes cali is tough ,,, I have always worried about is I start swapping too much , I would have to REF the car , wouldn't changing the head require you to have a ref check it. Or what needs to be done that requires a ref? I have always owned 8v's , so I'm seeing what I can reasonably get out of it, but a lot of folk say 16v , I haven't driven many 16v , Is a 16v that much better than 8v?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

84GLIRacer said:


> Is a 16v that much better than 8v?


A motor is basically and air pump, the more volume you can put thru it in a given amount of time , the more power will be made. So, yes a 16V of the same displacement will make more overall power than an 8V. But the 8V may feel stronger at lower rpm's than the 16V. And the 180whp mark with a 2.0L 16V is easier to make than with an 8V. Money will still have to be spent and making it "legal" in cali is any ones guess. Thankfully I do not life in the "Golden" State.


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## ds1919 (Oct 13, 2004)

you can build an ABA 16v, I believe its called an ABF. You can use the Motronic injection system and have it be CARB legal. To use the motronic setup, you would need the intake manifold from a 16v scirocco (the throttle body is located on the drivers side like CIS rabbits/jettas). To clean up the long fuel injector lines, you can use the CIS lines, provided you get the motronic injector-to-CIS fuel line adapters. Or you can just use the longer motronic lines. Anyways, there is some wire splicing involved, I dont know how far into the project you want to get, but if you want a very nice strong motor, this is the way to go, just takes more time to put together. (I have the complete motronic setup with the adapters if you want). 
For this setup, you would tell the REF that its a 2.0l 9A motor with its original injection/management system, the Motronic setup, and they will/should approve of the swap and give you the sticker. 
If you get head work done, a set of Schrick or Kent cams, Schrick 50mm intake mani, and good exhaust, you should see some really nice gains. I am not sure how much hp, perhaps someone else has more expertise here. But in a mk1, this motor will be very fast, and Cali legal. 
I cant remember tho, if the compression goes up, goes down, or stays the same with the pl/9a head and aba block.........anyone??


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## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

ds1919 said:


> you can build an ABA 16v, I believe its called an ABF. You can use the Motronic injection system and have it be CARB legal. To use the motronic setup, you would need the intake manifold from a 16v scirocco (the throttle body is located on the drivers side like CIS rabbits/jettas). To clean up the long fuel injector lines, you can use the CIS lines, provided you get the motronic injector-to-CIS fuel line adapters. Or you can just use the longer motronic lines. Anyways, there is some wire splicing involved, I dont know how far into the project you want to get, but if you want a very nice strong motor, this is the way to go, just takes more time to put together. (I have the complete motronic setup with the adapters if you want).
> For this setup, you would tell the REF that its a 2.0l 9A motor with its original injection/management system, the Motronic setup, and they will/should approve of the swap and give you the sticker.
> If you get head work done, a set of Schrick or Kent cams, Schrick 50mm intake mani, and good exhaust, you should see some really nice gains. I am not sure how much hp, perhaps someone else has more expertise here. But in a mk1, this motor will be very fast, and Cali legal.
> I cant remember tho, if the compression goes up, goes down, or stays the same with the pl/9a head and aba block.........anyone??


depends on the pistons you use 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-for-OBD1-16v-aba-2.0-(low-compression-8.5-1)


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## 84GLIRacer (Feb 10, 2008)

thanks Ds , right on , I would have to get higher compression pistons with the PL head/ABA to get 10.1, something like 8.5.1 just slapped together.


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

B4S said:


> On a built ABA, designed to remain driveable on the street, the max you'd see with a WELL tuned/built setup would be 130whp.


Surprising. My 1.8 counterflow with stock cam, stock head, stock intake/throttle body, only port mached to the gasket for 1" from the gasket, header, 10.5:1, .040 over stock pistons, balanced blueprinted, stock (but tuned) CIS-E and TT header is at 115whp (dynapak).

I would have figured that with head work, cam, cross flow, 2.0 and electronic fuel injection that 140 would be attainable.


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

This is turning into a great thread - lots of good info.




Svedka said:


> ... Also standalone lets you run either a Pentium style manifold or ITB's


Not to nitpick, but it's Plenum not Pentium.


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## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

Jettaboy1884 said:


> This is turning into a great thread - lots of good info.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hahahaha 

I cant spell for sh!t


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## ds1919 (Oct 13, 2004)

Jettaboy1884 said:


> This is turning into a great thread - lots of good info.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


haha, I thought the same thing too, but I was afraid I might be incorrect in mentioning that. 
Its really an AMD Athlon manifold right?:screwy:


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