# UM mani and SW review by thygreyt (pt 2)



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

this thread is made so that new info doesnt get lost on the clutter of what became the pt one thread.

after the initial dyno from wednesday, which honestly was a bit dissapointing, yet interesting:










United Motorsports and i, being as obsessive as we are started re doing it all in order to find out what happened.
even though everything looked good on the SW side, and on the car side. Everything pointed to the dyno... hell, maybe it is the dyno.

for sure? we dont know.
Regardless, we decided to "fix" what already was incredible.

UM then revised their sw, and he decided to try and "experimental" software. He has tried it, and Kyle Crisham seems to love it... lol.
So, he got Kyle's hand made software, and he tweaked it for me and the mods i have... needless to say, things improved.. a LOT!

this afternoon i got re dynoed at the same place, in order to get comparative results.
is the tach signal bad? who knows... a couple of friends did tell me that this dyno reads a lower... but again, its the best and only way to compare with the previous run.

so, after the re-flash with the hand made sw, well... things improved a lot!

Lastly, +09 ECUs for some reason isnt letting me to rev past 6800 rpm... so that also "hinders" the peak HP... regardless, im happy.. and thats what matters to me.


----------



## nunumkv (Jul 5, 2010)

Tune it up . Cant wait to see it.
mine next!


----------



## dhenry (Feb 10, 2009)

looking much much better now, glad to see you got things sorted out. i also think i might have that software too, b/c i got updated just recently unless this is something new new


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

I got it today just before the dyno... So i dunno.

sent from tapatalk


----------



## TylerO28 (Jul 7, 2008)

I think this is good... But may prove that 09 cars require a different base. Initial tune was obviously not what YOUR motor wanted


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

UM got it right, but i dont know what the difference was... Might have my car, my ecu or something with all of the +09 ecus... 

sent from tapatalk


----------



## dhenry (Feb 10, 2009)

thygreyt said:


> UM got it right, but i dont know what the difference was... Might have my car, my ecu or something with all of the +09 ecus...
> 
> sent from tapatalk


thats weird that your limit is 6800:screwy:

but that torque and hp curve is nice. if you could get more rpm im sure 200hp would be right there


----------



## BlackRabbit2point5 (Sep 6, 2007)

I've had 40whp+ differences same dyno different days no changes and dyno deep in a building

Sent from my HTC Evo 4G Shift using Tapatalk


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

On wednesday the highest i dynoed was 179, but the other 2 pulls were 170...
Today all my pulls were over 185 and the max was 189.77..

The software change made a huge difference

sent from tapatalk


----------



## LampyB (Apr 2, 2007)

sorry in advance if this causes confusion, but is your car fully tuned for the SRI now? are you making 189hp in total with your mods, or will you be getting another tune to bring it up above the 200hp mark? i think it's interesting that your torque numbers were nearly identical.


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

LampyB said:


> sorry in advance if this causes confusion, but is your car fully tuned for the SRI now? are you making 189hp in total with your mods, or will you be getting another tune to bring it up above the 200hp mark? i think it's interesting that your torque numbers were nearly identical.


Maybe,maybe not.
09s ecus are different, and for one the have a lower rpm limit, which makes the car yield less hp.
More rpm = more hp

On top of it, they react different.. the maf helps a lot for the tunning.
But 09s have a better tq curve... No such thing as a camp dip.



sent from tapatalk


----------



## TylerO28 (Jul 7, 2008)

The beauty of any Sri is its top end... Its not going to build a ton of torque, but once it gets opened up.... It makes a significant gain in HP. If the Sri is tuned correctly, it'll build. A lot is also based off of runner length, inside diameter, path of flow etc.all of these variances can make or break power. 

Glad you made better numbers.but still (devils advocate) no where near 207hp. Hopefully this gives everyone an idea of how little a dyno sheet really relates to their own car. With any part we buy, its all relative. It made power for sure...but I take dyno sheets like I would take a contractors quote... It could be more, could be less. Its ONLY a rough estimate.


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

TylerO28 said:


> The beauty of any Sri is its top end... Its not going to build a ton of torque, but once it gets opened up.... It makes a significant gain in HP. If the Sri is tuned correctly, it'll build. A lot is also based off of runner length, inside diameter, path of flow etc.all of these variances can make or break power.
> 
> Glad you made better numbers.but still (devils advocate) no where near 207hp. Hopefully this gives everyone an idea of how little a dyno sheet really relates to their own car. With any part we buy, its all relative. It made power for sure...but I take dyno sheets like I would take a contractors quote... It could be more, could be less. Its ONLY a rough estimate.


Agreed, but we can agree that the um sri has been dynoed many many times, and it has proven time and time. And trust me, it is tuned correctly.

Can it be better? Idk.. maybe? UM should know the answer.

Funny that you mention the c2' 207, which used the um sri.

And i also agree, the dyno sheet shows many things, and i love the always available tq shown... So, is there an issue at this dyno with the tach signal?, maybe. I'd have to try another dyno in order to know. People say that it does read less than actual, but honestly at this point i dont care for a "normal" reading.

sent from tapatalk


----------



## dhenry (Feb 10, 2009)

thygreyt said:


> Funny that you mention the c2' 207, which used the um sri.


wasn't the evolution header used on that car?


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

nickbeezy said:


> wasn't the evolution header used on that car?


Yes, but the biggst diff is the ecu. They are easier to tune.

sent from tapatalk


----------



## zevion (Oct 23, 2009)

That torque couldn't be flatter and the power more linear. Looks awesome. :thumbup:


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

zevion said:


> That torque couldn't be flatter and the power more linear. Looks awesome. :thumbup:


i cant imagine this with a turbo...


----------



## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

Has anyone considered the fact that the 6 speed might have more parasitic loss?


----------



## TylerO28 (Jul 7, 2008)

I was quoting the um manifold with um tune I thought... But regardless this is good looking... I can't wait for my manifold to show up. Still saving, but any Sri plus my turbo? Pure awesome! It is an extremely Nice looking tq and HP curve... Just broad flat and always moving up!


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

TylerO28 said:


> I can't wait for my manifold to show up. Still saving, but any Sri plus my turbo? Pure awesome! It is an extremely Nice looking tq and HP curve... Just broad flat and always moving up!


i cant wait to see what the curve will look like in yours!!! 
i really, really, really want to see what can a mani do for a turbo in terms of spool power delivery and tq.

i love the tq curve... while it kept the same peak as before, it is not the same, now it is a lot more usable because of how constant the tq is.

and i dont mean to be a "lover" nor a fanboi... but everywhere it says that rule of thumb for the turbo'ed cars is that the bigger the plennum, the more the power.

some people say that up to 800% of the engine displacement can be a good plenum, others say up to 200% (5L of a plenum)... This is one of the main reasons for me to go with UM's mani.


----------



## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

Glad the tweak improved your numbers and made both curves the way they should be. I do have an idea tho of where that last bit of power might be going. Does anyone remember someone havin the EJ header on their car and they went and dynoed it and actually lost a decent amount of hp? I was thinking this could be the same case with your car Fred, Sri plus a long tube header might not be a good combo. You could be right about the whole 09+ ecu tho as it is very different from the earlier ones. I also think the 6spd tranny could be affecting your numbers a bit as someone else already stated but I wouldnt think itd make a huge difference. Either way, you still improved your numbers greatly and can still prolly make more if you tweak things to suite your engine the best.


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

tay272 said:


> I was thinking this could be the same case with your car Fred, Sri plus a long tube header might not be a good combo.
> 
> You could be right about the whole 09+ ecu tho as it is very different from the earlier ones. I also think the 6spd tranny could be affecting your numbers a bit.


agree with the long tube header part....not a great combo untill you get to the upper end...IMO.

but the 6speed shouldn't have a issue at all. they run the dynos in direct drive gear, or as close to that as possible. which is normally 3 or 4th gear so its perfect engine rpm.

glad you got the numbers up a bit more. 10 more whp more for a quick tune touch up is great.:beer:

thanks for getting another dyno done fred:thumbup:


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> agree with the long tube header part....not a great combo untill you get to the upper end...IMO.
> 
> but the 6speed shouldn't have a issue at all. they run the dynos in direct drive gear, or as close to that as possible. which is normally 3 or 4th gear so its perfect engine rpm.
> 
> ...


the long headers are necessarily the culprit here, after all this guy made 202 with headers...










but i do agree about the 6spd. It should not be dragging down the numbers.

no worries about the dyno.. but yes, im officially broke... lol. i guess its back to saving time.

my personal opinion? the car drives better and faster than ever before. no matter what you do, there always is power.

is it really a 190whp car? according to the dyno, it is. And althou people say that the dyno reads low, i really dont care for a better number, one that i might pleasing to the masses. I love the car as is, and i need no further proof of what can it do.

honestly, im in love with what UM has done with and for me. i want to spend more and more time driving...

right now, i cant wait to see what a turbo feels like.


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

just enjoy driving it then, have fun :beer:


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> just enjoy driving it then, have fun :beer:


thats the plan!


----------



## LampyB (Apr 2, 2007)

yeah i personally don't really care about the dyno numbers, it's more about how happy i am with how it feels while driving. i do have to say that when i first bought the 2.5l it was the first n/a car i've had in ten years and i was kind of disappointed at first. now i'm pretty sold on the readily available torque, when i drive the GLI around town it isn't as much fun as the bunny. the sound of the 2.5 engine is also fantastic, the 1.8T/2.0T doesn't even come close. 

i'll eventually get an SRI now that i've settled on keeping the car for long time...reliability is huge considering i'm at 80K on my '08 and she's still running strong. 

so do you plan to go turbo once you have the funds, or are you going to just continue building up the n/a?


----------



## pennsydubbin (Mar 3, 2010)

thygreyt said:


> i cant wait to see what the curve will look like in yours!!!
> i really, really, really want to see what can a mani do for a turbo in terms of spool power delivery and tq.
> 
> i love the tq curve... while it kept the same peak as before, it is not the same, now it is a lot more usable because of how constant the tq is.
> ...


hmmm, I wonder if this is this really true? I cant' really research right now because i'm on vacation but I just quickly read on another site that said that the larger the plenum, the longer the lag, and the shorter the runners, the more torque and less top end you get and vise versa.

I don't know which one is right :laugh:


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

Jimmy, we are on the sane boat. Most sites said what i posted, but i also found the opposite on other sites.

sent from tapatalk


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

LampyB said:


> yeah i personally don't really care about the dyno numbers
> 
> so do you plan to go turbo once you have the funds, or are you going to just continue building up the n/a?


Honestly, me neither. And the way i see it:
It was slow from factory
It was quick with mods
It was quicker with unitronic
It was fast as a manual
Its faster with the sri
Its incrdbly fast and fun with um.

Next step? Turbo. Hopefully this year...

sent from tapatalk


----------



## 2pt5_20v_pwr (Jul 19, 2011)

thygreyt said:


> Honestly, me neither. And the way i see it:
> It was slow from factory
> It was quick with mods
> It was quicker with unitronic
> ...


idk about incredibly fast lol but definitely fun and a lot faster than stock. I cant wait to see a turbo and SRI. If things go as planned I should have a custom turbo setup this summer


----------



## eatrach (May 13, 2004)

The only time that the 6 speed manual affecting the Hp number if the clutch is on its last leg, and it is slipping. Other than that, I don't see it as being one of the culprit. 
So I am assuming that UM will update its software for the SRI +tune combo. I am hoping to get mine installed within 2 weeks. I hope that Four Seasons will have the updated version of the software.

That's a big improvement Fred:thumbup:. I will say this that I might not go Turbo. After the SRI, I'm stopping. I want to save my money for the next...monster


----------



## vr6-kamil (Sep 14, 2008)

How's that possible that that ecu of '09 + restricts to only 6800rpm? I thought with overwriting the ecu with software of any kind you just set the rev limit to what ever. It's all just software so you type in what limit you want and it does it. 

I guess I just can't wrap my head around it. But I do have UM software myself and believe they are the best in the business


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

vr6-kamil said:


> But I do have UM software myself and believe they are the best in the business


Agreed!

sent from tapatalk


----------



## dhenry (Feb 10, 2009)

vr6-kamil said:


> How's that possible that that ecu of '09 + restricts to only 6800rpm? I thought with overwriting the ecu with software of any kind you just set the rev limit to what ever. It's all just software so you type in what limit you want and it does it.
> 
> I guess I just can't wrap my head around it. But I do have UM software myself and believe they are the best in the business


i also have an 09 but its goes just a _bit_ higher. i talked to my local tuner to raise the rev limit to 7200 like everyone else's but they said $200 to re do:screwy: $1500 is alot and im not paying a cent more for just a few more revs.

i understand if it is an ECU thing. but if the website claims 7200rpm and thats what everyone else with a SRI has. i want what i was promised. and if fred got to 7200 he probably would have achieved the 200hp that is claimed.

im not knocking UM or anything b/c i love my product, but im disappointed that i didnt high revs like it said on the website. I hope UM does look into that


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

jeff isnt happy with the 6800... he told me so. And he is currently looking to do further 09+ dev.

moar power is comming


----------



## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

Mine was set to 7500 but I also have an 06 so there must be a difference somewhere.


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

tay272 said:


> Mine was set to 7500 but I also have an 06 so there must be a difference somewhere.


lol, i have said it many times...! 

the main difference is the ECU.

the ME17.5 ecu found on 09+ 2.5Ls is WAY different to the earlier ME7 found on the other mkvs.


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

cruising at the said RPM, look at theMPG, and intake temps are 9 degrees away from OAT.
on the stocker, the lowest it would be, was while cruising at 80mph, at it was 15 degrees away


----------



## GTACanuck (Feb 20, 2009)

thygreyt said:


> cruising at the said RPM, look at theMPG, and intake temps are 9 degrees away from OAT.
> on the stocker, the lowest it would be, was while cruising at 80mph, at it was 15 degrees away


DAMN YOU!!!! I just went and spent $$$ on a bluetooth OBD scantool...... :laugh::laugh:


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

GTACanuck said:


> DAMN YOU!!!! I just went and spent $$$ on a bluetooth OBD scantool...... :laugh::laugh:


lol, i have had mine since nov.. i have done 100s of logs!  i love it


----------



## GTACanuck (Feb 20, 2009)

Just bought a cheapie off ebay to see what its all about. How is the app, you using Torque Pro?


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

GTACanuck said:


> Just bought a cheapie off ebay to see what its all about. How is the app, you using Torque Pro?


yup.

this is mostly i what log... for more specific things i use vag com...

i might log other sensors such as fuel flow/min and such to compare, or knock, or ttiming advance... but again, for the VERY spefici things such as cams settings and such, i use vag com.


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

from the weekend drive, and to further down finish the review:

the manifold IS awesome. Software is Marvelous.

so far i am getting VERY good milage, better than what i used to get on unitronic.
on Unitronic i used to get 25-28 mpgs... on United Motorsports i do 28 consistently, i have to drive like a 16yr old to not get my 28s!

here is the trip average:










and notice how cold the air intake is!  (i was cruising, but not very slowly.. lol)









just 6 degrees from ambient.
Althou, as others have mentioned, the mani being aluminum, can get very hot very easy... the good thing is that it gets cold just as easy!

when im at iddle, the mani will slightly heat soak: it might go up to 20 degrees from ambient (on a hot day). but after 5 minutes rolling, the temp will lower to back tot he usual 5-8 degrees.

all in all, i am super impressed with the product. Very nice, solid and quality!

lastly: dont be swayed by comments that say that the mani doesnt have the best fitment etc. in the end, its VERY easy to fit, install shouldnt take long. The throttle body is NOT on the oem location, but for ME it just made no difference.

feel free to ask any questions. here to answer


----------



## Anile_eight (Sep 30, 2009)

My debate now is to go C2 or UM....:/ I have no clue!!!! 

I'll be in miami in a month or two but I don't know. They are the closest dealer. C2 was great form me and a lot of help. And will be cheaper, I'll get a discount for already having the C2 tune. 

Would UM be able to tailor the file to my car a little or would just load the stock one on? As the test pipe does make a difference as well as the CAI.... just thoughts


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

Anile_eight said:


> My debate now is to go C2 or UM....:/ I have no clue!!!!
> 
> I'll be in miami in a month or two but I don't know. They are the closest dealer. C2 was great form me and a lot of help. And will be cheaper, I'll get a discount for already having the C2 tune.
> 
> Would UM be able to tailor the file to my car a little or would just load the stock one on? As the test pipe does make a difference as well as the CAI.... just thoughts


PM'ed.


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

if you are going to be in miami, do let me know!  i can take you to all the different meets and stuff. 

and if you need to do anything, i'm more than happy to help! i have my tools, and a garage. 

posibilities are endless!


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

just wanted to mention a couple of things pertaining to my never ending review:

lately, i have been hitting the engineering books (as i want to become an engineer within the next 2 years) and reading more technical articles on hardaware design, air flow and such.

after some more careful reviewing, i wanted to say: all manifolds have been hugely different, and i am referring to:
-initial HEP mani for andre.
-HEP mani for [email protected]
-1552 manifold
-eurojet manifold
-c2 manifold
-united motorsports manifold
-unitronic/DM motorsports manifold.
-OEM manifold.
-golf 2.0 (mk3 2.5T awd swap) custom manifold

one or 2 might LOOK similar to the other, but they are ALL VERY, VERY different.

small changes in plenuum volume, runner lenght, cylinder intake hole, velocity stacks, and more will all make slight changes on their own, and vast differences on the end, and it can all be thoroughly appreciated on the powerband, on the dyno.

and all manis will have different effects on the application: NA or FI, it wont work the same.

in the end, i chose UM because of the bigger plenuum, and so far it looks like i made the right desicion, FOR ME, my car and my application.

for you (in general) it all depends on the whole build, driving style and driving conditions.

lastly: i am still VERY interested on seeing how the powerband reacts to the C2 manifold. i just find it odd that no numbers have been released after so long, when we KNOW that dynos have happened. 
oh well.


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

none that i know of... but i know the floor is being done at C2 today for the dyno room, the dyno is there and they have training on it monday...which means it has to be installed and running by then 
which in turn means....dynos on everything


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> i know the floor is being done at C2 today for the dyno room, the dyno is there and they have training on it monday...which means it has to be installed and running by then
> which in turn means....dynos on everything


again, i cant wait.

and yes, i have em "liked" on facebook. i try and stay current on the 2.5L...!

"epoxy floors today"


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 27, 2010)

Anile_eight said:


> My debate now is to go C2 or UM....:/ I have no clue!!!!
> 
> I'll be in miami in a month or two but I don't know. They are the closest dealer. C2 was great form me and a lot of help. And will be cheaper, I'll get a discount for already having the C2 tune.
> 
> Would UM be able to tailor the file to my car a little or would just load the stock one on? As the test pipe does make a difference as well as the CAI.... just thoughts


PM'd


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 27, 2010)

thygreyt said:


> lastly: i am still VERY interested on seeing how the powerband reacts to the C2 manifold. i just find it odd that no numbers have been released after so long, when we KNOW that dynos have happened.
> oh well.


If you KNOW of any dynos that have gone on, let me know because I don't know of any just yet...




nothing-leaves-stock said:


> none that i know of... but i know the floor is being done at C2 today for the dyno room, the dyno is there and they have training on it monday...which means it has to be installed and running by then
> which in turn means....dynos on everything


This ^

Dyno is here, being installed Saturday, training and testing on Monday then we are gonna be making it RAIN dyno sheets :laugh:


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 27, 2010)

thygreyt said:


> no hate here... BUT:
> 
> please delete the comment, and keep it to PMs as i did... no need to clutter a review thread.


ahhhh, my fault, sir..... forgot what thread this was :thumbup:


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

took it all on PM.

some info wasnt meant to be public, nor is it relevant to the topic on hand.


----------

