# 2.5l into a Mkl TT



## Forty-six and 2 (Jan 21, 2007)

I have been reading through threads on this forum for a while now. I do have a handful of questions as I get started on building my 2.5 into a turbo motor, then dropping it into a mk4 chassis car.

I have read the 2.5 is easily capable of handling 400whp, but 450 is nearing it's max. If this is accurate, what are it's weaknesses? The 1.8t has a weak rod problem. Just wondering if the rods are the main issue with the 2.5, or if it's a rod/piston/bolts combo?

Also the serp belt looks to be an issue when hitting rpm little above 7k. Can anything be pinpointed as a problem with the system? I ask because, I will most likely be fabricating accessory mounts and tensioning system. I just don't want to make the issue worse, and might be able to "solve" the problem in my case.

Next would be a management question. I will be adapting a beetles engine harness to work with the TT. So far it looks like my only option is to use the beetles ecu, then run a chip tune. Who makes a good chip, that will allow me to make necessary adjustments? Are there any stand alone options yet? 

I see BFI is working on the development of engine mounts, but haven't released anything yet. They would be my first choice... Anyone else have anything to offer? INA has a set, but are pricey! I really only need the motor mount, as the TT's trans and dogbone mounts are retained.

I will keep doing my research, but if you have any experienced advise, I'd be happy to hear it. :beer:

Pics of the car...





and the motor as of now. It has 33k miles on it, and will get thoroughly looked over.


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

Have not heard of the weaknesses you mentioned. My TTRS is at stage 2+ and so are many others. I have heard of no engine weakness issues at 400+. APR has a stage 3 kit and they do not recommend changing any internals. The only thing that must be upgraded is the HPFP. Just my .02. Good luck!


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## gugu1981 (Jul 25, 2011)

Williamttrs said:


> Have not heard of the weaknesses you mentioned. My TTRS is at stage 2+ and so are many others. I have heard of no engine weakness issues at 400+. APR has a stage 3 kit and they do not recommend changing any internals. The only thing that must be upgraded is the HPFP. Just my .02. Good luck!


I don't think the OP is talking about the same motor. Since beetle harness is mentioned, i am pretty sure he is talking about the US spec (in fact, US only) 170hp inline 5 NA motor.


Peter


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## Forty-six and 2 (Jan 21, 2007)

Correct. This motor isn't from an RS. I believe it is from an '09 Jetta. The beetle harness is the only way to adapt it to the Mkl TT. It allows you to use the necessary pinouts to run the haldex system.


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## stef 4x4 (Jan 8, 2012)

Forty-six and 2 said:


> I have been reading through threads on this forum for a while now. I do have a handful of questions as I get started on building my 2.5 into a turbo motor, then dropping it into a mk4 chassis car.
> 
> I have read the 2.5 is easily capable of handling 400whp, but 450 is nearing it's max. If this is accurate, what are it's weaknesses? The 1.8t has a weak rod problem. Just wondering if the rods are the main issue with the 2.5, or if it's a rod/piston/bolts combo?
> 
> ...


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Your plans for a 2.5L engine swap coincide almost exactly with our own for the FrankenTT. That car has had its F23-fitted 2.0L stroker pulled and has an '06 New Beetle motor standing by. We've been getting solid installation tips from NothingLeavesStock as well as C2 Motorsports, who has provided an exhaust manifold. Here is a shot of the motor, and our prototype F25 turbo dry-fitted.











The consensus opinion is that an early model year Beetle harness & ECU are the most compatible with the Mk1 TT. And the TT's 02M transmission is reputed to be compatible as well. Later this week we will be doing the final assembly of the motor and wiring harness, in preparation for dropping it into the engine bay.

You can be sure we'll be documenting the process thoroughly. After all, we've got some 450bhp-capable turbos to promote. So I ain't going to be bashful about that.


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## [email protected] (Jul 27, 2010)

I will be watching this closely. :thumbup::beer:


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> the TT's 02M transmission is reputed to be compatible as well.


From everything I've seen --any 1.8T gearbox will mate to a 2.5L. The 02J-B on a MK4 1.8T is a direct fit, and the FWD 1.8T 02M only requires a bit of grinding to mate up properly. 02Q swaps are common, though those usually come from 2.0T FSI MK5s.

If you can't get the 02M to fit, I do know you'd be able to swap the bell housing from a 2.0T 02Q to a 1.8T 02M.

Any way you slice it --the stock trans will fit or can be made to fit.



[email protected] said:


> '08 Jetta motor standing by.


Hope you've got an 08.5 --the old chains suck. You can run any 2.5L with any harness in a swap situation if you've got all the right sensors and immi disabled :thumb up: best to use the later version of the motor that's not going to take a crap. Odds are you're giving up the possibility of a forged crank (not 100% sure on that --I won't know for certain until I open my motor up) BUT there's always a TTRS crank --that sucker is beast.



[email protected] said:


> We've been getting solid installation tips from NothingLeavesStock as well as C2 Motorsports, who has provided an exhaust manifold. Here is a shot of the motor, and our prototype F25 turbo dry-fitted.


Dammit, Doug! You're such a tease! 



[email protected] said:


> I will be watching this closely. :thumbup::beer:


Same. I'd love to do a similar swap when I finally have these magic green papers with dead guys printed on them...


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## Forty-six and 2 (Jan 21, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I will be watching this closely. :thumbup::beer:


:beer:


Are you going to be marketing the kit you put together Doug? My target output is 400 whp, but would like to be able to push it to 500. I'm also trying to keep the spool time as close to what you have with the f23/1.8t kit. A 5862 is what I have in mind at the moment. Your build has my interest now. Do you have a development thread going? I am only in the key parts collecting phase right now, but will start making good progress within the next month. I want the ecu/haldex situation taken care of before getting too excited about spending money on hardware. If you are willing to share/help sorting things out with me, I'll shoot you a pm.

I wish I would have known about the chains issue with the pre 2008 motors. I just checked mine, and it's an '08. Anything to look at specifically when inspecting them?

I guess I have been getting conflicting info over the past few days, so I ended up buying an ecu out of an '07 Jetta. Hopefully that won't end up causing me any added headache...


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Forty-six and 2 said:


> Are you going to be marketing the kit you put together Doug?


Yes.



Forty-six and 2 said:


> Do you have a development thread going?


Not yet --I'm stoked for it too!



Forty-six and 2 said:


> I wish I would have known about the chains issue with the pre 2008 motors. I just checked mine, and it's an '08. Anything to look at specifically when inspecting them?


The problem is that the chains jump on the original tensioner design. If you're inspecting them regularly, most of the 2.5L eggheads agree you're unlikely to have catastrophic failure --you *should* be able to catch it first.

If you do want to update the chains, the best way is to use a TTRS crank shaft. It's forged, and it's got the updated chains. It'll support more power than any other crank can --and it'll do it reliably.



Forty-six and 2 said:


> I guess I have been getting conflicting info over the past few days, so I ended up buying an ecu out of an '07 Jetta. Hopefully that won't end up causing me any added headache...


Ryan at C2 *might* be able to flash over your Jetta ECU with the Beetle OEM software --and then tune that. This is common with domestics, I've done it myself. It's not something I ever hear about Euro guys doing --though I'm increasingly confused about the massive disconnect in how US spec Euro ECUs compared with anything else I've ever seen. Same exact parts on a US Dub will be more temperamental than the exact same part in any other car in any market.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

What are you planning to do about mounts? I'm honestly not too sure if a BFI mount fits in a MK4 chassis, and I know the stock beetle's mount won't have what it takes to handle the power (just watch Midlothi's before and after mounts vid). You might have to fab your own mounts, but talk to Pete at Blackforest Industries --he's the guy who'd know fitment on mounts.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

The word I got from BFI a while back was the mount works in mk4s. There's a slight difference but nothing major enough to cause problems

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Another consideration is the fuel pressure management. The Mk4-based TT chassis is designed for a regulator that returns fuel to the tank, but the stock 2.5L fuel rail is not. The simplest solution I know of is this:











We will be fitting Bosch EV14-series 550cc injectors to this rail. The fuel pressure will be set to 3bar. As for a build thread, I will get that underway once the 2.5 is in the car. Hopefully that's about a week out from now.


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## Forty-six and 2 (Jan 21, 2007)

That is my plan for the fuel rail. I figure start off with big injectors from the beginning. E85 will definitely be in the future for the car. I figure start with a single 044. It should handle my goals, add a second if there ends up being any issues. I will keep an eye out for your thread. I'm excited to see what to put together.:beer:


I will most likely go with bfi's trans and dogbone mounts. So far I haven't found and beetle motor mount upgrades. So, it will get a oem mount until I can figure out a solution. I'm steering clear of a solid mount as of now. My teeth couldn't handled to rattle of one. 

Maybe I missed it in earlier posts, but which mk4 mount are you talking about? From what I have gathered the beetle mount is the only solution for the mk4 chassis cars. 

That suck about the chains. I'd have rather have started without that problem. Maybe I will grab another motor over the coming winter to truly tear down and build.

As for the Jetta ecu, if it truly turns out to be an issue, I will just find one from a beetle. I picked this one up for a good price, so I really won't be set back at all.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Forty-six and 2 said:


> So far I haven't found and beetle motor mount upgrades. So, it will get a oem mount until I can figure out a solution. I'm steering clear of a solid mount as of now. My teeth couldn't handled to rattle of one.


Pat just posted a BFI mk5/6 2.5L mount will work.



Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> The word I got from BFI a while back was the mount works in mk4s. There's a slight difference but nothing major enough to cause problems





Forty-six and 2 said:


> That suck about the chains. I'd have rather have started without that problem. Maybe I will grab another motor over the coming winter to truly tear down and build.


If you get a late model or TTRS crank you can update the chains on the motor you have. No need for a second one.



Forty-six and 2 said:


> As for the Jetta ecu, if it truly turns out to be an issue, I will just find one from a beetle. I picked this one up for a good price, so I really won't be set back at all.


Then, no worries.



[email protected] said:


> IE fuel rail



That settles your intake manifold. You'll want an IE SRI --it's the only SRI that can mate to an IE fuel rail.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

08 motors have the upgraded timing chain tensioners. You shouldnt have a problem with the chain jumping. It was pre 08 that had the problem. An 08 motor is a good place to be because you dont have the timing chain problem and you have the possibility of having a forged crank. Although I have only seen one crank break on the forums and that was in Bluewaters car, and way more than 500hp.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

For fuel rail just attach a return style (aeromotive, magnafuel) fpr to one end and run it in flow-through

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


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## killerbunny (Jul 10, 2008)

I believe there was another crank failure on our engine, it was also in a swapped car. I will see if I can find the post. Also op, you have a sweet user name one of my favorite songs. :-D 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

From what we can tell only the EARLY motors have forged cranks. Even still, not all of those do. There's no way to run the late lower chain on the early forged crank, so you're pretty much gonna be running the early chains. Still, we haven't had any issues with them with fresh guides- I think they just chew up the guides and get loose with miles. 

We have one on the dyno and we've spun it as hard as 9600 without any chain related issues.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> From what we can tell only the EARLY motors have forged cranks. Even still, not all of those do. There's no way to run the late lower chain on the early forged crank, so you're pretty much gonna be running the early chains.


It sounds a bit fiddly to determine whether the donor motor has an incompatible crank. In this case, it's an '06 Beetle unit. I'm going to operate on the assumption that updated lower chain is a no-go.



[email protected] said:


> Still, we haven't had any issues with them with fresh guides- I think they just chew up the guides and get loose with miles.
> 
> We have one on the dyno and we've spun it as hard as 9600 without any chain related issues.


Fresh guides it is then. Seems like a reasonable maintenance item on an 80,000+ motor. Thanks for the input. :thumbup:


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## killerbunny (Jul 10, 2008)

Here is the link for the broken crankshaft:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4134747-MK3-2-5-swap/page17


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Just a thought. What about machining the oil ring off the older crank, then machining the crank out of the new gear. Do a ln shot and press? Its a bit wasteful, I'll admit, but surely there has to be a possible process.

Or just pony up for the rs crank

/tangent

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

mldouthi said:


> 08 motors have the upgraded timing chain tensioners. You shouldnt have a problem with the chain jumping. It was pre 08 that had the problem. An 08 motor is a good place to be because you dont have the timing chain problem and you have the possibility of having a forged crank. Although I have only seen one crank break on the forums and that was in Bluewaters car, and way more than 500hp.


Is it the '08 or just the '08.5 that has updated chains?



Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> ...just pony up for the rs crank


:beer:


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## biggerbigben (Jan 21, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> From what we can tell only the EARLY motors have forged cranks. Even still, not all of those do. There's no way to run the late lower chain on the early forged crank, so you're pretty much gonna be running the early chains. Still, we haven't had any issues with them with fresh guides- I think they just chew up the guides and get loose with miles.
> 
> We have one on the dyno and we've spun it as hard as 9600 without any chain related issues.


That's good to hear! I've got an 2006 beetle motor, is it likely to have a forged crank? I would assume the early chains but I'm going to stick with these and just keep an eye on them. My motor has done less thank 1k miles so should be fine for a while. I hope!


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## Forty-six and 2 (Jan 21, 2007)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> Pat just posted a BFI mk5/6 2.5L mount will work.
> 
> 
> If you get a late model or TTRS crank you can update the chains on the motor you have. No need for a second one.
> ...



Cool.:beer:

I'll buy a second motor for a quality rebuild without having any down time. 

Nah, I am going to be building the intake and exhaust manifold. I have plenty of fabrication experience, and love the intake designing process. IE's manifold has been tested and proven, and I may not even match it's flow, but I want a custom one anyway. As for the exhaust manifold, I want it to be v-band. I'm sure for downpipe fitment, it would be best anyway.





killerbunny said:


> Here is the link for the broken crankshaft:
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4134747-MK3-2-5-swap/page17


Great thread! It's really cool to see what the motor is capable of, and it's limit.


@Pete
I bought a set of Wiseco's from you for a different build... Just curious if you are able to get them for the 2.5? The JE's are nice, but high in price.




I appreciate the quality info being thrown into this thread. Good discussion.:beer:


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

My 2 cents is that early chain failures have more to do with oil type and intervals. The failed guides I have seen are always in sludgy motors. Hydraulic tensioners are not especially fond of sludge, dirty oil or low oil. Sure, the updated chain is a more durable "lifetime" chain compared to the older roller, but the upper chain in all the 07k family is still a roller style. It can't be that bad. Chains get a bad reputation for "skipping teeth", but the only way guides get worn till there is enough slack to skip teeth is just bad oiling. If all the guides are coming out of the same six sigma plant, I have a hard time believing that one tensioner guide is going to last 60k miles on engine A while the engine B with the exact same part is lasting 150k+ miles like we have seen. 

We are neck high in a MK2 DSG 2.5T TT swap right now. Lots more program variables. We have a 6 speed MK1 trans as a backup plan should we take the easy way out.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Here is the state of our recipient car. Kind of messy-looking now, but we hope to have the engine in by tomorrow.











More pix of manifold and IE fuel rail later today...


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## Forty-six and 2 (Jan 21, 2007)

Thanks for updating Doug. :beer:

Once you have the motor in, could you take some measurements for me please? I will be building both manifolds before I actually have the motor in the bay. I will need a few pictures with a handful of measurements to the closest points of interference from the motor to firewall and radiator support. They will need to be fairly accurate, since I will be counting on them for fitment. Let me know if you can spare the time for it. :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

One thing we've already determined: the C2Motorsports manifold isn't compatible with the TT's Haldex transfer case. They interfere. So Ed at ForceFed fashioned a similarly designed log-style manifold from stainless piping, one which altered the turbo position just enough for the clearance we need.











The T3 outlet flange has yet to be done at the stage when this picture was taken, but this is the general idea of the thing. Flange via Integrated Engineering.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Forty-six and 2 said:


> They would be my first choice... Anyone else have anything to offer? INA has a set, but are pricey! I haven't heard the best reviews on their mounts either. I really only need the motor mount, as the TT's trans and dogbone mounts are retained.


Which mount are you referring too? The BSH mounts that we resell or our own rubber units? The BSH units like most (if not all of the derlin/poly mounts) are IMHO not meant for a daily driver. Our own units are still in testing and have been for a little over a year now so I would not expect to see any reviews on those as they test cars are all internal.

That being said , I am right behind you on the project car but will be doing the following different:

Turbocharger - will use the OEM TTRS set up with an adapter plate until the cast manifold is done.
Intake manifold - will be doing a combination of Gallardo parts and machined parts just to be different.
Gearbox - I was going to use an MQ350 or even a DQ350 but I want to use the MQ500 box I have had for a while and will retain the Haldex for the rear.
ECU/Tuning - I sourced a Beetle 2.5 harness & ECU to retain the MK4 /Audi TT cluster but I have heard of people making the MK5 ECU & harness work. I just have not tried it with the time and energy that I do have for this.
Oil Pan - will be complete redesign to allow for a true trap door design around the oil pump pick up and will have the rear oil return for the turbo.

As for cast or forged crankshafts. I thought I figured out a tell by looking @ the crankshaft pulley but that still does not conclude if it is forged or cast. Only way to tell is by opening up the oil pan and physically looking for the forging line on the crankshaft. If you want to use the later style chains then you need to go with the TTRS crankshaft.


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## biggerbigben (Jan 21, 2004)

Issam Abed said:


> As for cast or forged crankshafts. I thought I figured out a tell by looking @ the crankshaft pulley but that still does not conclude if it is forged or cast. Only way to tell is by opening up the oil pan and physically looking for the forging line on the crankshaft. If you want to use the later style chains then you need to go with the TTRS crankshaft.


What's your recommendation Issam? Swap out to ttrs setup or stick with early style crank (forged or cast)/chains.. ?


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## [email protected] (Aug 18, 2011)

Cool build, OP! I've flagged this for follow-up. opcorn:



Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> What are you planning to do about mounts? I'm honestly not too sure if a BFI mount fits in a MK4 chassis, ...





Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> The word I got from BFI a while back was the mount works in mk4s. There's a slight difference but nothing major enough to cause problems


Our 2.5l engine mount will fit in MK5/MK6/New Beetle/B7 Passat and should fit the MK1 TT chassis as well.

In a MK1 TT our complete replacement transmission mount _will not_ fit -- there's a clearance issue that prevents it from fitting properly.
The solution is to buy a MK4 OE trans mount, take it apart and install our inserts, or just buy a preassembled trans mount from us that's ready to drop-in.
Whatever transmission you use, you may need to carry over the bracket that the trans mount bolts to. Anything 02J/02M should be fine, but anything exotic might need some part swapping.


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## [email protected] (Aug 18, 2011)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> Hun? I'm not understanding this response. What's up with the engine mount that's solved with a trans mount?


I've edited my post now.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

biggerbigben said:


> What's your recommendation Issam? Swap out to ttrs setup or stick with early style crank (forged or cast)/chains.. ?


I think just about any 2.5L car owner will gasp at the cost of a TTRS crankshaft. No, this is a budget-minded customer market. Fancy OEM cranks aren't a realistic possibility.


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## Forty-six and 2 (Jan 21, 2007)

Issam Abed said:


> Which mount are you referring too? The BSH mounts that we resell or our own rubber units? The BSH units like most (if not all of the derlin/poly mounts) are IMHO not meant for a daily driver. Our own units are still in testing and have been for a little over a year now so I would not expect to see any reviews on those as they test cars are all internal.
> 
> That being said , I am right behind you on the project car but will be doing the following different:
> 
> ...


:beer: I must have just stumbled across some misinformation searching through posts a while back. I edited my post, further spread doesn't happen.

I was just taking to a friend about Gallardo parts last week. I'd really like to get ahold of a right bank valve cover. The pre-'09 motors should work. 

I was also looking at the pan yesterday wondering how to "make it better". I haven't had the chance to pull it yet. I'm interested in what you come up with for it.:thumbup:


Thanks Pete for the mount info. I will keep this thread as I make progress or as my parts collection grows. :beer:

An RS crank would be nice. I saw a "recently sold" ad for one that went for $700. If I were shooting for the moon on this particular motor, I would track one down. My budget isn't tight per say, but more of a make this actually happen before dreaming too big. I'm sticking with my low mileage factory motor for a little while.



A few questions...

Anyone know the specs on the factory intake cam? I'd like to keep the pulse in mind when sizing the intake runner/plenum wall.

Also, I need a solution for the belt paths... I don't have a water pump as of right now, but from what I see in pictures, it sets further towards the block than the crank pulley.? I will be using the p/s and alt. from the TT. I will fab a mounting bracket for both, along with a manual tensioner. I originally thought it would be as simple a using a spacer between the water pump and pulley, but then saw it is a press fit pulley. Would modifying the press sleeve to allow it to extend to the cranks belt path have any adverse affects on the pump? 


New parts of the day.



I already have the runner tubing and a Hemi tb flange. I will have to wait until payday to order the remaining materials. Unfortunately I don't have a tig. :thumbdown: Once everything is fitted, it will need to be shipped to someone with plenty of skill.


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

Forty-six and 2 said:


> :beer: I must have just stumbled across some misinformation searching through posts a while back. I edited my post, further spread doesn't happen.
> 
> I was just taking to a friend about Gallardo parts last week. I'd really like to get ahold of a right bank valve cover. The pre-'09 motors should work.
> 
> ...


Gallardo cover doesn't work. Good magnesium part though!


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

Good luck finding the intake cam specs. I inquired about that, and the exhaust cam map, for a while with no luck. Most didnt know, and the ones that did told me to measure it myself.


Here is an image of the belt set up if this helps also, I couldnt tell if you were inquiring about one in your last post. But extending the pulley on the water pump will increase the wear on the bearings and cause it to fail sooner. I was advised against this when working on the supercharger pulley setup.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

biggerbigben said:


> What's your recommendation Issam? Swap out to ttrs setup or stick with early style crank (forged or cast)/chains.. ?


The guys @ BCF broke a cast crankshaft making around 700chp so if you want that piece of mind go forged otherwise cast vs forged really is not an issue until you are trying to make over 500whp.


Forty-six and 2 said:


> :beer: I must have just stumbled across some misinformation searching through posts a while back. I edited my post, further spread doesn't happen.


No worries at all. Just don't want to be associated with another billet + derlin product 


Forty-six and 2 said:


> I was just taking to a friend about Gallardo parts last week. I'd really like to get ahold of a right bank valve cover. The pre-'09 motors should work.


Yes but they still need to be welded shut as the Gallardo has a solenoid right smack in the middle of the cylinder 5 and the cam girdle. It can work but then you will need to mdoify the mounting points as most of the mounting boses around the perimeter do not match up between 07L and 07K motors.


Forty-six and 2 said:


> An RS crank would be nice. I saw a "recently sold" ad for one that went for $700. If I were shooting for the moon on this particular motor, I would track one down. My budget isn't tight per say, but more of a make this actually happen before dreaming too big. I'm sticking with my low mileage factory motor for a little while.


The issue is you need all the associated parts with the crankshaft so the impulse wheel (dealer only @ $180) + a MK6 GTI flywheel if you want dual mass or South Bend if you want a single mass.



Forty-six and 2 said:


> Anyone know the specs on the factory intake cam? I'd like to keep the pulse in mind when sizing the intake runner/plenum wall..


I sent a set of TT-RS cams and 2.5 Rabbit cams off to be checked for actual duration/specs. I will do a follow up today to see the status if they are even done.



Forty-six and 2 said:


> Also, I need a solution for the belt paths... I don't have a water pump as of right now, but from what I see in pictures, it sets further towards the block than the crank pulley.? I will be using the p/s and alt. from the TT. I will fab a mounting bracket for both, along with a manual tensioner. I originally thought it would be as simple a using a spacer between the water pump and pulley, but then saw it is a press fit pulley. Would modifying the press sleeve to allow it to extend to the cranks belt path have any adverse affects on the pump?


If you are keeping A/C then you are going to want to go with an electric power steering pump (Mercedes-Benz A-Class or VW Polo , etc). You are also going to want to get your hands on an A/C comp from a MK6 GTI with the single pulley ($100-$150 tops). The pulley on the water pump can be pressed off or you can run a spacer between the block and the water pump like I initially did. I wanted to run all the pulleys in 1 plane but that came to a hault due to the belts available in 5 ribs. I am going with a 6 rib prototype from Fluidampr which will definately help when moving all the belts into the same axis.


Forty-six and 2 said:


> I already have the runner tubing and a Hemi tb flange.


I am not a fan of the Hemi 5.0 units as they are not serviceable. Go with the B5 RS4 throttle body and use the TT-RS throttle body boot


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Issam Abed said:


> I am going with a 6 rib prototype from Fluidampr which will definately help when moving all the belts into the same axis.


WHHHHHAAAATTTT???

I want more information on this!!! I've been looking for a viable crank pulley upgrade for MONTHS!!!


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## biggerbigben (Jan 21, 2004)

Issam Abed said:


> The guys @ BCF broke a cast crankshaft making around 700chp so if you want that piece of mind go forged otherwise cast vs forged really is not an issue until you are trying to make over 500whp.


Ok so.. Early style forged should be ok for 600-700+whp. Cast is fine too 500whp. What markings does a forged crank have.. Any ideas? Might whip the sump off tomorrow night and have a look. 



Issam Abed said:


> The issue is you need all the associated parts with the crankshaft so the impulse wheel (dealer only @ $180) + a MK6 GTI flywheel if you want dual mass or South Bend if you want a single mass.


Out of interest do we know what the list of parts are? 



Issam Abed said:


> I wanted to run all the pulleys in 1 plane but that came to a hault due to the belts available in 5 ribs. I am going with a 6 rib prototype from Fluidampr which will definately help when moving all the belts into the same axis.


What do you need PAS for! :laugh: Just need water pump, alternator and crank..


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

A couple of pictures of the prototype F25 turbo dry-fit to the motor.





























And here's the Integrated Engineering fuel rail mounted to the stock intake manifold (note the stock-fitment orientation of the 550s; the fuel rail is designed to retain this):











Regarding the question of supplying oil to the turbo, Fabian at FFE had some strong ideas. In this first picture you can see the oil filter flange with the Integrated Engineering oil cooler plate fitted.











If you disregard the oil plate for a moment, you will also see the octagonal shape of the oil sensor. This location will be our source for a pressurized oil feed. Using a cheap tee fitting such as this one…











…we create a spare 10M x 1.00mm thread port for an oil line fitting. 

That leaves the oil return line. Fabian spotted a large threaded plug at the front of the engine near the pulley. 











He found this plug to be the identical part number as the oil pan drain plug, but why is it there and what's its purpose? With a bit of research he found that this plug covers an access hole for a tool that's used to fix the crank in position during fabrication/repair. So its basically vestigial from the factory and available to be used as a place to deposit oil from the turbo. The hole looks directly into the crankcase (literally right at the crank), so drainage by gravity will work.


Next, I want to cover the questions about the valve chain system. Here are a couple of quotes:



[email protected] said:


> ...we haven't had any issues with them with fresh guides- I think they just chew up the guides and get loose with miles.
> 
> We have one on the dyno and we've spun it as hard as 9600 without any chain related issues.





URHank said:


> My 2 cents is that early chain failures have more to do with oil type and intervals. The failed guides I have seen are always in sludgy motors. Hydraulic tensioners are not especially fond of sludge, dirty oil or low oil. Sure, the updated chain is a more durable "lifetime" chain compared to the older roller, but the upper chain in all the 07k family is still a roller style. It can't be that bad. Chains get a bad reputation for "skipping teeth", but the only way guides get worn till there is enough slack to skip teeth is just bad oiling. If all the guides are coming out of the same six sigma plant, I have a hard time believing that one tensioner guide is going to last 60k miles on engine A while the engine B with the exact same part is lasting 150k+ miles like we have seen.
> 
> We are neck high in a MK2 DSG 2.5T TT swap right now. Lots more program variables. We have a 6 speed MK1 trans as a backup plan should we take the easy way out.



Now, so everyone can get an idea of what people are talking about when referring to upper and lower chains, crankshaft etc, here are a couple pix:

Upper section of motor (cylinder head) and upper timing chain:











And here is the lower portion of the engine, with the crankshaft, oil pump cog etc.











Based on advice posted earlier we will be replacing all of the plastic chain guides in the upper and lower sections of the motor. Fabian hasn't ever done this before but he reckons that each guide can be replaced in turn when the tensioners are compressed. In other words, he intends to replace the guides without removing the chains. If anyone here has pointers for that process, please feel free to post them up.

Thx


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Based on advice posted earlier we will be replacing all of the plastic chain guides in the upper and lower sections of the motor. Fabian hasn't ever done this before but he reckons that each guide can be replaced in turn when the tensioners are compressed. In other words, he intends to replace the guides without removing the chains. If anyone here has pointers for that process, please feel free to post them up.
> 
> Thx


The upper tensioner should be changed out also, not just the guides. It was redesigned in 08 to help with the premature failure problem.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> He found this plug to be the identical part number as the oil pan drain plug, but why is it there and what's its purpose? With a bit of research he found that this plug covers an access hole for a tool that's used to fix the crank in position during fabrication/repair. So its basically vestigial from the factory and available to be used as a place to deposit oil from the turbo. The hole looks directly into the crankcase (literally right at the crank), so drainage by gravity will work.


This on newer 2.5Ls? Or just MAF-ed?


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## killerbunny (Jul 10, 2008)

Doug how are you going to drain from the turbo at the back of the engine to the front using that hole?


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## gugu1981 (Jul 25, 2011)

killerbunny said:


> Doug how are you going to drain from the turbo at the back of the engine to the front using that hole?


that hole looks to be on the back of the engine? you can actually see it to the right of the turbo in this picture











Peter


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## killerbunny (Jul 10, 2008)

gugu1981 said:


> that hole looks to be on the back of the engine? you can actually see it to the right of the turbo in this picture
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmm yes it is. I did not notice that. I might try and move my oil drain there.

Sent from my KFTHWI using Tapatalk


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> WHHHHHAAAATTTT???
> I want more information on this!!! I've been looking for a viable crank pulley upgrade for MONTHS!!!


It is coming but only in 6 rib.


biggerbigben said:


> Ok so.. Early style forged should be ok for 600-700+whp. Cast is fine too 500whp. What markings does a forged crank have.. Any ideas? Might whip the sump off tomorrow night and have a look.


Look for the forging line in the centre of the counter weights. Should be approx 10mm-15mm thick.


biggerbigben said:


> Out of interest do we know what the list of parts are?


Depends on what motor the crank is going into. If early with 6 hole for flywheel forged crank then no point , if late then impulse wheel and flywheel.


biggerbigben said:


> What do you need PAS for! :laugh: Just need water pump, alternator and crank..


And A/C 


killerbunny said:


> Hmm yes it is. I did not notice that. I might try and move my oil drain there.


The issue I see with using the crank lock hole as an oil drain is most turbocharger manufacturers will tell you to use an AN-10 fitting for oil return or any metric fitting with a 16mm ID. 
AN-10 fittings have an ID on average of 12.5mm. The crank lock hole is threaded for M14 x 1.5 which would make the ID 12.5mm. Even if you made a fitting with say 1mm wall thickness it would still be >10mm. The boss in the block does have an OD of 25mm and an AN-10 fitting requires a 7/8-14 tap and requires a 13/16" (20.6mm) drill bit so that would be the route I would go but then again I would only recommend that route if the motor is being removed.


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## killerbunny (Jul 10, 2008)

I plan to pull the motor at some point. But then I would drill and tap a hole in the upper oil pan. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Issam Abed said:


> It is coming but only in 6 rib.


Does it require anything but pulleys and tensioners?


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## Forty-six and 2 (Jan 21, 2007)

Issam Abed said:


> It is coming but only in 6 rib.
> 
> And A/C
> 
> ...



I am very interested your belt setup, since I will be using 6 rib accessories. There will not be a/c on this car. I have used it twice in the past 2 years, and that was for a child's sake. P/S will be retained, because it's a dd, and I don't care to delete it.

I was just thinking the same thing after looking at that hole last night. It's in a pretty good location, but looks a little small to me. Drilling and tapping it sounds liked more work than I care for. The pan would need to be removed during that process, so that would be the perfect opportunity to simply weld a fitting on it.

I noticed my head doesn't have the small port to the right of the exhaust manifold flange. It that an sai port? Mine is the first I have seen without it.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

Yes, that is an SAI port, the earlier engines (Pre 08 I believe) had a port on both sides. Newer only have the port on left where the check valve is.


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## rabbitlvr (Oct 8, 2011)

in because more information in this single thread then most others :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

*what's the weight penalty of doing this?*

I've wondered how much extra weight this bigger motor would add, so I grabbed these stats for an insight:

2005 New Beetle 1.8T
Curb Weight MT	2820

2006 New Beetle 2.5L
Curb Weight MT	2884


Sixty some odd pounds for 40% more displacement. Not bad.


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## iowarabbit (Mar 29, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I've wondered how much extra weight this bigger motor would add, so I grabbed these stats for an insight:
> 
> 2005 New Beetle 1.8T
> Curb Weight MT 2820
> ...


The snail, beefier mani, piping, and intercooler won't be a negligible addition, but certainly still coming out ahead.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Before getting any further with this thread, I want to go over some fundamentals. The best donor car for any 2.5L swap into a Mk4 or TT would be an early model year New Beetle. So our project started in the junkyard, where we found this bad-boy:











There's an important bit of design commonality between donor and recipient: the 2.5L Beetle has an almost identical engine bay to those in older cars. So the motor actually mounts into the bay. Another big advantage is the layout of the motor accessories: again, the early New Beetle had all those parts mounted similarly. This is NOT the case with the more-common Rabbit and Jettas, because they have a different approach to the power steering system. So if you want power steering, you want an engine that's got the accessory rack like this:











This accessory rack (or mount) will accept these parts in top-down order: power steering pump, alternator, air conditioning compressor. When these three items are fitted to the engine you get this:











One stumbling block we've hit is the hard line for the power steering pump. It's not shaped correctly for the TT's engine bay. I guess we'll have to investigate some kind of high-pressure flex line in its place.

Here is the 02M transmission fitted to the engine:




















At left in the picture above you can see the oil pressure sender. This is where we will install a tee so we can draw oil supply to the turbo and keep the sender as well.


As for the oil return, we're concerned about clearance to the driver's side axle. 











If you look at the bung's location relative to the differential, you can see it's going to be a challenge. But we have to get the motor installed and the axle fitted before we can know more.

Here's one last picture for the Haldex crowd: manifold with the T3 flange sporting two bungs for sensor probes and the transfer case below. Kind of a cool sight to see in combination with 5 coil packs I think.


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## Forty-six and 2 (Jan 21, 2007)

Good post! :beer:

In the second picture from the top...am I seeing that the motor mount bracket's front bolts are bolted into the accessory bracket?


Side note to anyone doing this, the location of this setups power steering pump does not allow for the use of any sri on the market at the moment. I will not be using this bracket for that reason. I will be fabricating a new mounting system for the accessories that will be without the a/c compressor, and the p/s and alt will be moved downward.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Yes. The motor mount connects to the accessory bracket.

Why not just make an Sri that works with PS?


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Yes. The motor mount connects to the accessory bracket.
> 
> Why not just make an Sri that works with PS?


The p/s pump is pretty much right in front of the cylinder 1 port. It would be very difficult to make a sri that would flow evenly to that cylinder. You would end up needing to make that runner longer to reach the plenum.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

I think its doable. The throttle just wouldn't be in the stock location


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> I think its doable. The throttle just wouldn't be in the stock location


Feed it from the bottom :beer:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Why not just make an Sri that works with PS?


Let's keep the abbreviations to a minimum please. I want this thread to be as accessible as possible. And while I say that, what the heck is an "SRI"?


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Let's keep the abbreviations to a minimum please. I want this thread to be as accessible as possible. And while I say that, what the heck is an "SRI"?


Short Runner Intake manifold

These engines can't make power past about 5500RPM without one.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

I just realized my tone was sounding a bit bossy. Since I'm not the OP, sorry about that.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> Does it require anything but pulleys and tensioners?


Still trying to work out what we are going to do for those who want to run the stock 2.5 A/C. As it stands most of the companies I have contacted have stated they don't know how to make a dual clutch A/C pulley so if anyone has any suggestions I am all ears as it would need a 6 rib on the outter pulley and 5 rib on the inner. The primary tensioner won't be an issue.


killerbunny said:


> I plan to pull the motor at some point. But then I would drill and tap a hole in the upper oil pan.


good choice.:thumbup:


Forty-six and 2 said:


> I am very interested your belt setup, since I will be using 6 rib accessories. There will not be a/c on this car. I have used it twice in the past 2 years, and that was for a child's sake. P/S will be retained, because it's a dd, and I don't care to delete it.


Mount the power steering where the A/C once was and use our alternator spacer. That will allow you to retain the accessory bracket you have now rather than going to find a Beetle 2.5 / Passat B7 2.5 accessory bracket.


Forty-six and 2 said:


> I was just thinking the same thing after looking at that hole last night. It's in a pretty good location, but looks a little small to me. Drilling and tapping it sounds liked more work than I care for. The pan would need to be removed during that process, so that would be the perfect opportunity to simply weld a fitting on it.


I always true to have the turbine oil return somewhere in the crankcase or at least above the oil pump pick up tube. By tapping into the lower oil pan you maybe subject to pooling up the oil return line. Yes I know there are kits on the market that do this but that is not the way I would do it.


Forty-six and 2 said:


> I noticed my head doesn't have the small port to the right of the exhaust manifold flange. It that an sai port? Mine is the first I have seen without it.


From what I have seen there are 3 (5 if you count TT-RS) cylinder head castings. Some with a single SAI port , some with Dual SAI port and some with none.


[email protected] said:


> So if you want power steering, you want an engine that's got the accessory rack like this:


As mentioned above , this does not work with the intake manifolds on the market. I remember that the plastic units cracked @ 7-8 psi on a colleagues 2.5 Golf Turbo. You can take your chance but I would sooner relocate the power steering pump down below or source a Mercedes-Benz A-Class electric unit than run the power steering pump in that location. You are going to have to make lines anyway , delete a part you don't really need.


[email protected] said:


> At left in the picture above you can see the oil pressure sender. This is where we will install a tee so we can draw oil supply to the turbo and keep the sender as well.


You can also remove the M10 x 1.0 plug @ the side of the cylinder head and use an M10 x 1.0 to 4-AN banjo fitting and use that for oil feed. Will be cheaper (not that it matters) than running an M10 x 1.0 Tee fitting + 30" line vs M10 x 1.0 banjo + 16" line.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Issam, what happened to using the 2.0 ac compressor and moving it out?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Issam Abed said:


> You can also remove the M10 x 1.0 plug @ the side of the cylinder head and use an M10 x 1.0 to 4-AN banjo fitting and use that for oil feed. *Will be cheaper (not that it matters)* than running an M10 x 1.0 Tee fitting + 30" line vs M10 x 1.0 banjo + 16" line.


Cheaper always matters. Do you think the oil pressure from the cylinder head is adequate?


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Issam Abed said:


> Still trying to work out what we are going to do for those who want to run the stock 2.5 A/C. As it stands most of the companies I have contacted have stated they don't know how to make a dual clutch A/C pulley so if anyone has any suggestions I am all ears as it would need a 6 rib on the outter pulley and 5 rib on the inner. The primary tensioner won't be an issue.


Gruven Parts told me they could make a 2.5L A/C pulley in another thread. I'm upgrading all my pulleys --and i'll be thrilled if you can help make that happen :beer:


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Issam, what happened to using the 2.0 ac compressor and moving it out?


This will be for those who don't want to adopt the idea of having all the pulley's in 1 plane.


[email protected] said:


> Cheaper always matters. Do you think the oil pressure from the cylinder head is adequate?


Yes, it is still post oil filter housing feed just like the TTRS.


Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> Gruven Parts told me they could make a 2.5L A/C pulley in another thread. I'm upgrading all my pulleys --and i'll be thrilled if you can help make that happen :beer:


Machining a pulley is not an issue. If you saw how a clutch'ed pulley attaches to the A/C compressor you would get a better idea of the issues we are facing.


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## Forty-six and 2 (Jan 21, 2007)

To clarify comment on the drain line being added to the pan, I was referring to the upper aluminum section as well.

In the case of a mk4 swap and retaining it's p/s and alternator, would using a double p/s pulley work out? If so, the 2.5's alternator could be used so that everything could work with 5 rib belts. Just a thought... Although, I am still interested in what you have in the works, Issam. :thumbup:

I personally like the thought of feeding the turbo from the filter housing. If feeding from the head, I would recommend relocating the sensor's sending unit. The head will lose oil pressure before the filter housing will in the event of any type of system failure. I might be worrying a little more than necessary, but that's just my preference.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Issam Abed said:


> Machining a pulley is not an issue. If you saw how a clutch'ed pulley attaches to the A/C compressor you would get a better idea of the issues we are facing.


I've rebuilt a few A/C compressors, but I've never dealt with a twin clutch unit :beer:



Forty-six and 2 said:


> I personally like the thought of feeding the turbo from the filter housing. If feeding from the head, I would recommend relocating the sensor's sending unit. The head will lose oil pressure before the filter housing will in the event of any type of system failure. I might be worrying a little more than necessary, but that's just my preference.


Worrying in advance prevents problems later IMHO :beer::beer:


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

Granted our oil pan is way better than the transverse pan, but we have monitored pressure at the front of the head, and it is rock solid. If you have a loss of pressure that is enough to toast a thrust bearing in the turbo, the Journal Bearing t3 hybrid unit will be the least of your worries. If it is a ball bearing unit, it will survive the duration it would take to spin main bearings and rod bearings.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Forty-six and 2 said:


> To clarify comment on the drain line being added to the pan, I was referring to the upper aluminum section as well..


:thumbup:


Forty-six and 2 said:


> In the case of a mk4 swap and retaining it's p/s and alternator, would using a double p/s pulley work out? If so, the 2.5's alternator could be used so that everything could work with 5 rib belts. Just a thought... Although, I am still interested in what you have in the works, Issam. :thumbup:.


Yes,
I did that back in February 2012 but again it retains the 5 rib set up which means you will still have issues with the tensioner/5 ribs in the future. It is a good "band aid" for now but not ideal.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...9816859991.193839.294598024991&type=3&theater



Forty-six and 2 said:


> I personally like the thought of feeding the turbo from the filter housing. If feeding from the head, I would recommend relocating the sensor's sending unit. The head will lose oil pressure before the filter housing will in the event of any type of system failure. I might be worrying a little more than necessary, but that's just my preference.


Yes the cylinder head will lose oil pressure before the oil filter housing but the difference in time is miniscual so much so that by the time you have realised you have lost oil pressure , I would imagine it would be a no brainer to shut the engine down and your turbocharger will be the least of your worries. There are 2 primary channels for oil in the 2.5 motor. There is the cylinder head (cams, lifters , etc) and then there is the block (mains, con bearings , crank etc). The way the TT-RS runs is they use the block channel for oil feed. User Stef 4 x 4 sent me these images to post in the thread to show how he did oil feed and oil return for the turbocharger. Note he removed the oil galley block for main feed and added a fitting (similar to what you see on TSI motors) for oil feed.


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## biggerbigben (Jan 21, 2004)

Issam Abed said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> Yes,
> I did that back in February 2012 but again it retains the 5 rib set up which means you will still have issues with the tensioner/5 ribs in the future. It is a good "band aid" for now but not ideal.
> ...


Like that idea!


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Engine is in (for the most part) on our project. But we ran into a conflict with the AC compressor.











The chassis has a projection which blocks the compressor.




















We have to saw this projection off before the compressor can be restored to the accessory rack.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

A couple notes to do with this swap:

The Mk1 TT has a vehicle speed sensor in the 02M transmission. But the only 2.5L car that came comparably equipped was the Beetle. So this is yet another reason to go with that harness. Pic of the plug on the Beetle harness…











The 02M 6spd transmission linkage conflicts with the 2.5L engine vacuum pump. So the pump has to go, with the brake booster being supplied the old-school way: via the intake manifold.











Up next: examining the Bosch 550cc injectors that are commonly specified by tuners. How do they fit? We'll see.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> The 02M 6spd transmission linkage conflicts with the 2.5L engine vacuum pump. So the pump has to go, with the brake booster being supplied the old-school way: via the intake manifold.


I recall 02Q gearboxes needing to be ground down to fit properly --is that a possibility?


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

Im looking for the thread now, but there is someone that showed what needed to be done for the shift linkage to work and keep the vac pump.


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## mk6matt (Jan 26, 2013)

mldouthi said:


> Im looking for the thread now, but there is someone that showed what needed to be done for the shift linkage to work and keep the vac pump.


I believe it was a short shifter that allowed for more clearance.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

It was a shortened selector arm. I don't remember if they sectioned and welded it, or it was bolt on.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Thanks for the input guys. I'll put the question to Fabian at FFE. I'd like to keep the pump if possible.


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

Left foot breaking FTW! Keep the Vac pump


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Its only a shifter bracket. Cut 1/2" out of it, weld it back together, and enjoy the shorter side to side shifting.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


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## chezzestix (Nov 15, 2009)

Monitoring the mating of the 02M to the 2.5L. I'm working on this swap into my rabbit over in the MKV forums. I did already learn about the linkage issues though. I ordered a short shifter to take care of it (hopefully).


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks for the input guys. I'll put the question to Fabian at FFE. I'd like to keep the pump if possible.


Call Jim at DieselGeek. If his won't fit --he'll figure out a way to make you one that will fit. Not to mention, it's the best damn shifter I've ever had on ANY car.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

some stuff I've done and found out for a swap like this

-oil pressure test fitting on p/s of head is perfect for oil feed.
-drain go to the pan, weld in a bung, the crank lock hole may be too small for correct drain flow, since its not under pressure
-02m/Q trans fitment, grind top of trans down about 1/8'' or so to fit under the 2.5L timing cover.
-be careful of bolt lengths for the trans to motor, if too long they can crack the timing cover, causing a fun to find leak later
-KEEP THE VAC PUMP, use a shirt shifter OR go ghetto and slightly grind the side of the plastic shifter end
-with beetle PS pump, you can't get a SRI to fit.
-if doing a return fuel system you need to change the factory 2.5L filter to a normal straight through filter, FPR and the IE rail.

doug has contacted us to help out with the new FT25 kit idea. can't wait to get things rolling:beer:


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## vwluger22 (Jan 25, 2005)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> doug has contacted us to help out with the new FT25 kit idea. can't wait to get things rolling:beer:


Now I'm more excited about this. 


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


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## Forty-six and 2 (Jan 21, 2007)

Good work guys! Unfortunately I can't join in the actual motor fitment fun yet. I daily drive the car, and will be completing everything I can on a stand first.

I haven't been slacking though... I am gathering fab parts for my custom intake manifold. Just ordered a 5862 cea vband in/out and a wastegate. 

I have been busy with work and 1st bday's... Issam, I haven't forgot about our conversation. I get back to you in a few...


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## iowarabbit (Mar 29, 2007)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> -KEEP THE VAC PUMP


Does the manifold not adequately supply the brake booster?


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

I'm going to be watching this thread like a hawk, I've been interested in this swap and have found bits and pieces of info around, but the fact that so many good forum members/vendors are involved and there is so much info makes me happy  So, a few questions of my own:

- Will an 02m clutch setup (fw/clutch/pp) work without issue? Obviously its made for the 02m but it doesn't sound like there are 2.5 issues anyone has found; I just finished a SB Stg3/20lb FW install on my 225, but have the little devil whispering to sell it all for a 5cyl

- I know C2 has a proper tune for the engine, but what about other options if any? Would something like Lugtronic be viable? I currently have Eurodyne but I know there isn't support for the 5-banger, and I don't know anything about C2

- Going along with tuning, this seems to be more of an old-school type of flash, so once the base tune is installed and the car is running, what about fine-tuning? Vag-com for logs, send ECU through the mail a few times?

- Is there a specific DIY for the Beetle/TT pinouts, or does it amount to basically comparing the two wiring harnesses?

- Doug, for the kit, would you supply the manifold, turbo, downpipe, etc? Just wondering how much piecing together is involved (aside from the 50 things already :laugh

- More generally, if buying a used engine, are the early engines something to look for only because of the possibility of a forged crank, the correct passenger-side mount and accessory bracket? Like, if I get a good deal on a newer on (~2009) is it really that big of a deal?

I'm sure I'll ask more, but hot damn this thread is promising, and I can't believe how cheap the engines are...


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> some stuff I've done and found out for a swap like this
> 
> -oil pressure test fitting on p/s of head is perfect for oil feed.
> -drain go to the pan, weld in a bung, the crank lock hole may be too small for correct drain flow, since its not under pressure
> ...


Josh at NothingLeavesStock has graciously provided valuable, timely pointers while FFE Racing has undertaken this unconventional project. We're nearing the point where the engine bay is bolted together, so I am hoping I can count on them for the next daunting phase: wiring.



l88m22vette said:


> - Will an 02m clutch setup (fw/clutch/pp) work without issue? Obviously its made for the 02m but it doesn't sound like there are 2.5 issues anyone has found; I just finished a SB Stg3/20lb FW install on my 225, but have the little devil whispering to sell it all for a 5cyl


I got introduced to NothingLeavesStock because of their innovative clutch products. So I'm pretty optimistic on that end of things.




l88m22vette said:


> - I know C2 has a proper tune for the engine, but what about other options if any? Would something like Lugtronic be viable? I currently have Eurodyne but I know there isn't support for the 5-banger, and I don't know anything about C2
> 
> - Going along with tuning, this seems to be more of an old-school type of flash, so once the base tune is installed and the car is running, what about fine-tuning? Vag-com for logs, send ECU through the mail a few times?
> 
> ...


I think all of these other questions are ones that I hope this thread will provide answers for. In the meantime, here is a little nugget of info regarding fuel injectors…

The 2.5L engine comes stock from the factory with a wiring harness for Denso-style injectors. This design was a new one on me, so it took a bit of hunting for the necessary adapters to allow fitment of bigger injectors. The current standard for forced-induction 2.5L is the terrific Bosch EV14-series 550cc injector. It has a USCAR style electrical connection, so we need the appropriate adapter for the Denso harness. Here are a couple of pix showing the necessary parts:




















So here's a budgeting note: the combination of injectors and adapter pig-tails will run $250 or so when bundled with a turbo. Depending on the depth of your pockets, that's good news or maybe bad.


----------



## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> So here's a budgeting note: the combination of injectors and adapter pig-tails will run $250 or so when bundled with a turbo. Depending on the depth of your pockets, that's good news or maybe bad.


Sounds like a pretty good deal :beer:


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

vwluger22 said:


> Now I'm more excited about this.


:beer::wave:


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Sorry not to have updated things on our end, but work on the car has been slowed by FFE's preparations to move into a new space. A couple of notes, though:

A short-shifter bracket DOES work to allow clearance of the 02M linkage to the vacuum pump. So that part of the engine can stay stock.

There isn't much clearance at the downstream end of the Integrated Engineering fuel rail, which presented us with an issue for placement of the regulator. Our solution was to re-route the direction of flow so the regulator can be mounted to the passenger-side of the rail.

Next up is getting the exhaust connected and the intercooler piping routed.


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## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

Watching this close!! Great work guys!!

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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

work is underway on modifying the 42Draft Designs 3" turbo back exhaust system. 




















In the second picture you can see the 1/8" NPT bungs for EGT and back pressure measurements.












This is a view from the cat-back section looking towards the "upper down pipe"


Lower down pipe being roughed-in:


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## killerbunny (Jul 10, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> work is underway on modifying the 42Draft Designs 3" turbo back exhaust system.
> 
> 
> In the second picture you can see the 1/8" NPT bungs for EGT and back pressure measurements.
> ...


Looks good, your downpipe looks like mine, just with a lot nicer welds


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## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

Turbo looks a little small for a 2.5

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## Forty-six and 2 (Jan 21, 2007)

Finally able to start joining in the building!


5862 ar82



46mm


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

youngblood7868 said:


> Turbo looks a little small for...



People have been saying that about us for years.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> work is underway on modifying the 42Draft Designs 3" turbo back exhaust system.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Final fabrication of exhaust system. 





















A second O2 sensor gets placed behind the resonator. This is linked to a Lambda gauge in the cabin.











It's a crowded space behind the passenger-side headlight. We need to figure out room for the fuel rail, pump and intercooler charge pipe.































The post-intercooler run of piping up to the throttle body was actually almost unchanged from the earlier configuration.































Test-fitting the charge-pipe from the turbo.





















Welding it up.





















It's ungainly-looking, but one contiguous piece.











Finessing it past the headlight and up to the turbo.































Intercooler piping is complete, as is the exhaust. 











Now we're on to connecting the intake system with MAF and filter.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Tell their welder to put on some gloves.

Skin cancer is no joke.


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

Nice work guys can't wait to see this done!!!

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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Saved a bunch of pics for reference, this is shaping up nicely :thumbup:


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Tell their welder to put on some gloves.
> 
> Skin cancer is no joke.


Agreed. 

I lost a cousin to melanoma. He thought it was something that only happened to old geezers --he wasn't even 30.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)




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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

It's been a week, I need more car porn...


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## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

Like it!!

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## HollisJoy (Dec 26, 2011)

Video?


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

as of yesterday, doug called me and said they are working on the wiring harness. but the "swap" is in and complete.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Car won't start. The fuel injectors aren't cycling so the motor isn't receiving any fuel. We've tried a couple of ECUs and different types of injectors. So we now transition from the mechanicals stage to the wiring phase. I'll post the short list of engine codes the ECU spits out.


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## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

Go standalone its a whole lot easier

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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

youngblood7868 said:


> Go standalone its a whole lot easier
> 
> Sent from my SCH-R970X using Tapatalk


I doubt Doug wants to go that route. The purpose of this swap is to prototype the Frankenturbo F25 in an AWD car :beer:


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## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

Always a option..

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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

On the good side:

We have fuel pressure
We have spark
We have a CEL light when the ignition is on 
We get rpm signal to the gauge cluster when turning over the motor
The junkyard motor sounds like it's intact when turning it over
The motor will kick over if we spray starter fluid down the intake
The OBD port interface works and we can read/clear codes


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## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

Reach out to jeff Atwood 

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## [email protected] (Jul 27, 2010)

youngblood7868 said:


> Go standalone its a whole lot easier
> 
> Reach out to jeff Atwood
> 
> Sent from my SCH-R970X using Tapatalk


We are working with Doug on this using our C2NER device! We are excited for the next step in the project to get it up and going! :thumbup:


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

it not a tune or ecu issue. it needs correct wire harness pin outs changed


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

youngblood7868 said:


> Reach out to jeff Atwood
> 
> Sent from my SCH-R970X using Tapatalk


If it was tune related, the injectors would still be getting fuel. This is a wiring issue. 

BTW Jeff doesn't even have a MK4 Beetle file --the mk5 and mk6 ECUs wouldn't be ideal for this swap. A mk1 TT is essentially a MK4 r32, so the cluster et cetera will play nice with another A4 series ECU like the mk1 Beetle much easier than a mk5/6 ECU.


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## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

I see

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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> BTW Jeff doesn't even have a MK4 Beetle file .



Do not speak on what I have or do not have.


-Jeffrey Atwood


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Jefnes3 said:


> Do not speak on what I have or do not have.
> 
> 
> -Jeffrey Atwood


No offense intended, Jeff --but I'm not speaking for you. You are speaking for yourself by way of your website.



unitedmotorsport.net/VW software list said:


> MK3 Golf / Jetta 2.0L 8V ABA Performance Software
> 
> MK3 Golf / Jetta 2.8L 12v VR6 Performance Software
> 
> ...


If you offer additional software for other vehicles, it might prevent further confusion to list it on your website.

BTW I honestly apologize if I've offended you. I meant no harm in relaying the absence of a MK4 based 2.5L car on your list of offered software.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

I have absolutely ZERO desire for this project or this thread to incite friction among the community. Zero. So I hope folks will abide by that and steer clear of negativity. FrankenTurbo has been really fortunate to benefit from the wisdom of a number of skilled vendors. And both C2 and UnitedMotorsport are among them. This isn't a FrankenTurbo thread. I've been merely posting into it a lot. But as a simple community member, my goals for this project are to learn and perhaps build a market which will benefit many. So let's see where this leads.

In the meantime, our project car will now be getting handed off by FFE to NothingLeavesStock. The next hurdles are just the kind of thing NLS specializes in, and I'm counting on them to handle the troubleshooting to come.

Thx


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## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

Can't wait to see this thing when it's done!

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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> In the meantime, our project car will now be getting handed off by FFE to NothingLeavesStock. The next hurdles are just the kind of thing NLS specializes in, and I'm counting on them to handle the troubleshooting to come.


The FrankenTT is in good hands. Josh has great experience stuffing that motor into cars it wasn't designed to be in :beer:


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

So....Josh. What's the Story on Franken TTRS?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

The car is with NothingLeavesStock now. Josh is going to start on it this week.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> So....Josh. What's the Story on Franken TTRS?


yup, its here. have to gather info on what was done, go over things and then start on the wiring and fueling soon.


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## Bago47 (Jul 26, 2012)

Hey,
As my gearbox is whining (Audi TT mk1, 02M gearbox) and will need to replace it, I was wondering if I could fit 02Q transmission from TT mk2? 

I couldn't get a precise answer on the web; this is the info I've gathered so far:
-02Q has longer gear ratios -> higher top speed (290km/h at 6700rpm I believe? - if the car has enough power to ge there ofc)
-you have to retrofit speed sensor to 02Q gearbox as it doesn't have one (how am I supposed to do that, is it pretty straight forward or close to impossible?)
-different flange diameter (107mm opposed to 108mm, but not quite sure on this one thou)


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

not really worth it, no spot for VSS that the ecu needs, custom axles and mounts.... just get a 02m again, or build a o2m


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Common Josh and Doug. Make my day!

opcorn:opcorn:opcorn:


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

by saying what? oh oh...I know!!!

..
.....
.......
wait for it...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
##################
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

IT RUNS!


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> by saying what? oh oh...I know!!!
> 
> ..
> .....
> ...


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## HollisJoy (Dec 26, 2011)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> by saying what? oh oh...I know!!!
> IT RUNS!


Video Proof or it didn't happen


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

hollisjoy said:


> video proof or it didn't happen :d


awd dyno vids!!!!!


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

:thumbup:

Thanks, Josh.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> Thanks, Josh.


Man really is a wizard.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

its started and died. need ecu immob. defeat(coming Tuesday I believe)
has a TON of codes and we will work out each one by one.
so we are a bit away from a dyno  but it runs and will run better this week.


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## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> its started and died. need ecu immob. defeat(coming Tuesday I believe)
> has a TON of codes and we will work out each one by one.
> so we are a bit away from a dyno  but it runs and will run better this week.


Can't wait to see it done..

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## slowgti (Jul 15, 2003)

Anything new to report?


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

not too much. we were away on the one lap of America last week,
but we have a immo defeat ecu now and getting new software on it today. got it to run, has 11 fault codes. some are easy to code out, some are wiring things. we will be working on it later today and next week.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Not to cast stones here -- especially since we've been slow for a month now ourselves -- but where's the OP with his project?


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## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

Wouldn't it be easier just to run a standalone like the vi-pec 88? 

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## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

Control just the engine with vi-pec. And let stock ecu control everything else on car like ac ect...

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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

no


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## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

Ok

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## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

We'll i know few guys doing it..But you guys wanna stay with stock ecu I understand

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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

youngblood7868 said:


> Wouldn't it be easier just to run a standalone like the vi-pec 88?


yuck


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## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

Ok 5th grade all over again lol....

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## Forty-six and 2 (Jan 21, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Not to cast stones here -- especially since we've been slow for a month now ourselves -- but where's the OP with his project?


Just have been insanely busy with work and home upgrades. I haven't abandoned the swap, but postponed. Between 6k on a few carats and getting my house in better shape to withstand another winter, I pushed the schedule back a few months. A happy woman is better than a fast car.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Forty-six and 2 said:


> JA happy woman is better than a fast car.


Smart man.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

good priorities 

on our end. adam worked most of Friday on it. the car had an issue with running after the key was off AND out of the ignition! he found a few bits that caused that and its starting and turning off as it should now.
I personally took off friday and Monday for a quick vacation.... much needed, too short!! but was nce...so I have to catch up with it today. more soon


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

wires everywhere.... but its running, starts, shuts off, revs etc....
have to figure out the cam solenoid still but almost there.


[video]https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14159355209/[/video]


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> wires everywhere.... but its running, starts, shuts off, revs etc....
> have to figure out the cam solenoid still but almost there.
> 
> 
> [video]https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14159355209/[/video]


Yes!


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> wires everywhere.... but its running, starts, shuts off, revs etc....
> have to figure out the cam solenoid still but almost there.
> 
> 
> [video]https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/14159355209/[/video]


Congrats

Hank


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## zevion (Oct 23, 2009)

Forty-six and 2 said:


> A happy woman is better than a fast car.


That's the wisdom of a man at the beginning of his marriage. I'd be interested to hear your wisdom at the end of it.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Per NLS the cam solenoid is on-line, as are the MAF & O2 sensors. All three of these devices are routed through the TT's body harness, which is of course not the same as that in the Beetle. But they've gotten those three biggies sorted, so we are down to smaller wiring stuff and a few leaks from the junkyard-sourced motor. Getting closer to driving it now...


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected]com said:


> Per NLS the cam solenoid is on-line, as are the MAF & O2 sensors. All three of these devices are routed through the TT's body harness, which is of course not the same as that in the Beetle. But they've gotten those three biggies sorted, so we are down to smaller wiring stuff and a few leaks from the junkyard-sourced motor. Getting closer to driving it now...


Excellent!


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

update...

-motor was a junk yard motor, which we did not install. it had coolant leak, oil leak, alt was dead, exhaust leak....so we fixed ALL that
-got the 02 working
-got intake air temp working
-got fans working
-got the cam adjuster sol. working(others couldn't )
-car starts, runs very well, shuts up normally, no drains
-more Monday once we install the oil filter housing that was cracked.

all in all.....its almost ready for a test drive :beer:


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## vwluger22 (Jan 25, 2005)

:thumbup:


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

exhaust leak fixed
oil line redone and installed correctly
cracked oil filter housing replaced
Tstat installed and warmed up, fans work
front end on, no bumper on yet
drive to lift, lifting now to check over under car
making air filter mount(just flopping there)
then install bumper and test drive


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> exhaust leak fixed
> oil line redone and installed correctly
> cracked oil filter housing replaced
> tstat installed and warmed up, fans work
> ...


vid. On youtube. Stat!


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

In for this!


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Really close now..


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## Forty-six and 2 (Jan 21, 2007)

:thumbup: Nice work! 

The wiring is majorly discouraging me... I am leaning towards a non-oem approach.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

wiring is a bit weird honestly. a few sensors were powered but not working and we had to power then up with another circuit...

we have notes on how to do it again if people want this swap done by NLS


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## Forty-six and 2 (Jan 21, 2007)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> we have notes on how to do it again if people want this swap done by NLS


Want to sell me a copy of the notes with a legal agreement clause?! You are too far away for me to have you do the work...

One of my other, a little wild, option is to mount it longitudinally, and ditch the haldex. A rwd TT would be fun! haha


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

drove it 5-6 miles.....
old turbo from the 1.8T was blown BAD and filled the exhaust with oil...I do mean FILLED. looked like james bond trying to loose the bad guy. so bad the muffler packing was on fire after I got to the shop. blew it out with zero damage. new exhaust is coming soon haha
also didn't have much boost control so I couldn't full throttle it,

BUT....
ran smooth, boosted instantly, was a quick car even when pedaling it around 9-10psi. had one code for the MAF, so we need to look into that. MAY be the wrong maf, checking numbers now.

all in all.... it runs nice.
more after we get the exhaust and boost setup done.


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> drove it 5-6 miles.....
> old turbo from the 1.8T was blown BAD and filled the exhaust with oil...I do mean FILLED. looked like james bond trying to loose the bad guy. so bad the muffler packing was on fire after I got to the shop. blew it out with zero damage. new exhaust is coming soon haha
> also didn't have much boost control so I couldn't full throttle it,
> 
> ...


This is with the 2.5 ECU, correct? Is the Haldex system fully functional aka not "on off" like a lot of Haldex swaps?

I'm not surprised the old F23 was shot...Doug put it through some HARD testing


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

yes 2007 2.5L beetle ecu
haldex seems to be working as normal.
old turbo puked 107348 gallons of oil in the exhaust haha


----------



## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> yes 2007 2.5L beetle ecu
> haldex seems to be working as normal.
> old turbo puked 107348 gallons of oil in the exhaust haha


@Doug --what'd you do to that old FrankenTurbo?

You run 10000x bar?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

At the time I wrecked that turbo I was sure that the motor had failed. I was running at crazily high timing advance and boost. But when we took things apart it turned out to be a run-of-the-mill thrust bearing failure that caused the turbo's oil seals to crash. We were running about 70psi of exhaust back-pressure at the time. Complete nonsense, really. But I wanted to see what would happen under those conditions. I got my answer: broken turbo. Here's the graph showing pressures in the exhaust manifold, taken 1 or 2 pulls before everything flew apart:










The new-and-improved FrankenTT also has a pressure sensor tapped pre-turbine rotor, so it'll be interesting to compare. But I don't reckon to ever reach back-pressures like that again.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Doug, its the FrankenTTRS now. Its got a 5-cyl


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> Doug, its the FrankenTTRS now. Its got a 5-cyl


A little less easy to roll off the tongue, but it's surely more accurate.


----------



## vwluger22 (Jan 25, 2005)

I'm confused as to why you have a f23 on the 2.5 and not some prototype f25 kit? Did I miss something?


----------



## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

vwluger22 said:


> I'm confused as to why you have a f23 on the 2.5 and not some prototype f25 kit? Did I miss something?


The stock 1.8T had an F23 on it. The swapped 2.5T should have an F25 which is similar to the K16 used on the TTRS and Ford Focus RS500.

BTW I test drove a used Focus RS500 --if I can make my car behave that way, I'll be a happy man. Quattro is nice, but unnecessary.


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

doug is doing this to test out turbos and sizes to make a possible kit for the 2.5L guys

more monday


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

vwluger22 said:


> I'm confused as to why you have a f23 on the 2.5 and not some prototype f25 kit? Did I miss something?


The car HAD been running an F23 turbo while it had a 20v 1.8T engine. For details on the testing we performed, you can find our project thread HERE. But the car now does actually have a prototype F25 turbo, and testing of its performance will hopefully get going next week.


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## vwluger22 (Jan 25, 2005)

Cool thanks guys.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

flame shooting video 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=801136766570665&set=vb.186423318042016&type=2&theater


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

here are a couple pix for the last pieces of the puzzle. The custom flange for the turbine exit needed a bit of modification & NLS ran a (temporary) straight piece of pipe out the back of the car. Luckily the exhaust system still has two resonators, so there's at least SOME noise suppression:




















Here's Josh's video from YouTube:


----------



## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

:thumbup:


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

NLS is now finished with our part of this build.
we fixed many mechanical issues
we wired the car up to work with the TT car harness
runs, drives, boost to 10psi, 
being picked up tomorrow by frankenturbo and then doug will be working with C2motorsports to code and tune the car to his specs


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## gugu1981 (Jul 25, 2011)

does this mean the f25 hardware has been pretty much finalized? If so, is there any estimate on pricing yet?


Peter


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

no. its not.
it now needs testing for turbo spec, tune etc.... then a kit made for the 2.5L rabbit/jetta


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> NLS is now finished with our part of this build.
> we fixed many mechanical issues
> we wired the car up to work with the TT car harness
> runs, drives, boost to 10psi,
> being picked up tomorrow by frankenturbo and then doug will be working with C2motorsports to code and tune the car to his specs


What sort of mechanical issues?


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

exhaust leaks, flange not machined off turbo, oil pressure line leaking, vac lines wrong, exhaust hitting subframe, alt was dead, FPR issues, battery, oil in muffler, etc etc etc.
all good now and car is gone from here and ready to be fine tuned with C2


----------



## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> exhaust leaks, flange not machined off turbo, oil pressure line leaking, vac lines wrong, exhaust hitting subframe, alt was dead, FPR issues, battery, oil in muffler, etc etc etc.
> all good now and car is gone from here and ready to be fine tuned with C2


Doug needs to sell a few F25s to pay off that bill....


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

It left ffe like that?


----------



## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> It left ffe like that?


I got the vibe Doug sent if off to NLS as soon as he knew FFE couldn't do this particular swap --this one seems like a particularly asinine and complicated swap. I don''t even want to know just how much it cost --HUGE is all I can think...


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

I don't know the reason it came like this, I just know we were told to finish it  (well, get it ready for coding and tune)
we did, doug now has it.

hardware swap isn't that hard.
wiring took well of 40 hours to figure out, we can do it in less now if its a mk1 TT 1.8t to a beetle 2.5L

honestly, I'd love to do a NA 2.5L in a TT and get 200whp on it. Tq would be fun in this car imo....


----------



## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Big thumbs up to getting the wiring situated...that must have been a nightmare trying to keep everything factory-esque instead of starting fresh with standalone! Seriously...:beer: to NLS


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

I could see ffe not having the time to do the wiring, but the unfinished flanges, exhaust rubbing, oil leak, and vac issues don't sound like eds work. Maybe it was all just a time issue. I don't know and I don't expect or care to know. I just thought it was interesting 

If its not too much of a secret, where was the main issues with the beetle integration to the TT? I would think 02 harness pinouts would be pretty similar and the engine harness to function standalone, like all the other mk4 platform motors. Are some of the 2.5 sensors ran through the 02 harness?


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

I honestly do not have an answer for FFE. seems like ive seen great work from them before.

as far as the harness.
02's are not the same pin out, have to add a IAT to the maf to ecu. powers are all wrong. 10+ wire to ecu are wrong. power up relay is wrong and that messes with the cam change sol.
there more but its about 20 wire changes, add fuse and relay etc
there is ecu coding that has to be done as well...immo defeat too
but cluster all works and car runs and drives well as it is now....

took awhile to figure it out but its done


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

I bet that ecu is lucky to still be alive. I'm glad its all sorted. This is a nifty car.:thumbup:


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> I got the vibe Doug sent if off to NLS as soon as he knew FFE couldn't do this particular swap --this one seems like a particularly *asinine* and complicated swap. I don''t even want to know just how much it cost --HUGE is all I can think...


Well, not a huge cost. Not when you compare the project to any other where a motor is pulled and then replaced. But I like your choice of words nonetheless. God, I've felt that way too over the last 10 months.



nothing-leaves-stock said:


> I honestly do not have an answer for FFE. seems like ive seen great work from them before.
> 
> as far as the harness.
> 02's are not the same pin out, have to add a IAT to the maf to ecu. powers are all wrong. 10+ wire to ecu are wrong. power up relay is wrong and that messes with the cam change sol.
> ...


I hope that this project opens a door -- even if only slightly -- to more interest in this motor among the VW enthusiast community. The physical transplant into a Mk4 chassis is completely feasible. And with enough practice on the wiring tasks, that will also become standardized and approachable. I have to say it's remarkable how well the secondary systems work with the car's new brain. The headlights light, the windshield wipers wipe. Even the PPD display system is able to pick up data over the OBD system, just as it did in the car originally.

As for the state of the car at the handoff from FFE, I knew there would be a laundry list of items to sort out. I told FFE to get the pieces together quickly and not to screw up the wiring in the car. They did that to my satisfaction, and did it on the eve of FFE's move into a new space. 

After the holiday I will post the details of all remaining electrical "idiosyncrasies" that can only be addressed with software alterations. But I will say that today I briefly took the car into boost. The sound of motor, turbo & diverter valve is unlike anything I've heard before. It's ferocious.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Doug. NLS (josh?), just a thought: now that the wiring is sorted out, PNP harness adapter?


----------



## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I hope that this project opens a door -- even if only slightly -- to more interest in this motor among the VW enthusiast community. The physical transplant into a Mk4 chassis is completely feasible. And with enough practice on the wiring tasks, that will also become standardized and approachable. I have to say it's remarkable how well the secondary systems work with the car's new brain. The headlights light, the windshield wipers wipe. Even the PPD display system is able to pick up data over the OBD system, just as it did in the car originally.
> 
> But I will say that today I briefly took the car into boost. The sound of motor, turbo & diverter valve is unlike anything I've heard before. It's ferocious.


Extremely cool :thumbup:!!


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Doug. NLS (josh?), just a thought: now that the wiring is sorted out, PNP harness adapter?


impossible. because you have to change things on the car side of things and NOT only the 2.5L harness.... we were hoping it could be that way, but its not possible


----------



## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> impossible. because you have to change things on the car side of things and NOT only the 2.5L harness.... we were hoping it could be that way, but its not possible


That blows.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

This motor is going to need to really strut its stuff to warrant a transplant into a Mk4 chassis. As for the FrankenTT-RS, it's laid up with a stripped shock absorber bolt. Can't drive it at all until that's addressed. But I intend to create a FrankenTurbo-specific thread this week.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

The car has been getting the final touchups necessary before testing gets underway. The shock bolt is replaced, new brakes on all four corners & the Eurodyne BoostManager is hooked up. As for the remaining electrical incompatibilities for this swap, I'm posting the VAG-COM error codes here. One other incompatibility for the engine isn't accompanied by a code: the 2.5L lacks an engine-pan oil level sensor, but the TT's instrument cluster expects to see one. So I am weighing my options for remedying that. My preference would be to create some kind of hybrid pan that has a sensor flange stitched onto it. Perhaps that can happen when the new rods/pistons go in. Otherwise, here is the "punch list" of codes that need to be smoothed out in-software:


```
Thursday,03,July,2014,18:37:32:19161
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator
VCDS Version: 12.12.2.0
Data version: 20140212

Dealer/Shop Name: FrankenTurbo LLC




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                Address 01: Engine       Labels: 06A-906-032-BGP.LBL
Control Module Part Number: 07K 906 032 C    HW: Hardware No 
  Component and/or Version: R5              G   7829
           Software Coding: 0000001
            Work Shop Code: WSC 00000 000 00032
                      VCID: 2959452E83B3FB56EC9-5122
8 Faults Found:

049489 - No Communications with Airbag Control Module 
               U0151 - 008 - 
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 01101000
                    Fault Priority: 0
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 255
                    Mileage: 167380 km
                    Time Indication: 0

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 0 /min
                    Load: 0.0 %
                    Speed: 0.0 km/h
                    Temperature: 57.0∞C
                    Temperature: 30.0∞C
                    Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
                    Voltage: 12.319 V

005722 - Temperature Sensor in Fresh Air Intake 
               P165A - 001 - Short to Plus
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 01100001
                    Fault Priority: 0
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 255
                    Mileage: 167380 km
                    Time Indication: 0

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 0 /min
                    Load: 0.0 %
                    Speed: 0.0 km/h
                    Temperature: 57.0∞C
                    Temperature: 30.0∞C
                    Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
                    Voltage: 12.319 V

001336 - A/C Evaporator Temperature Sensor 
               P0538 - 001 - Short to Plus
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 01100001
                    Fault Priority: 0
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 255
                    Mileage: 167380 km
                    Time Indication: 0

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 0 /min
                    Load: 0.0 %
                    Speed: 0.0 km/h
                    Temperature: 57.0∞C
                    Temperature: 30.0∞C
                    Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
                    Voltage: 12.319 V

001330 - A/C Refrigerant Pressure Sensor (G65) 
               P0532 - 002 - Short to GND
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 01100010
                    Fault Priority: 0
                    Fault Frequency: 31
                    Reset counter: 255
                    Mileage: 167380 km
                    Time Indication: 0

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 0 /min
                    Load: 0.0 %
                    Speed: 0.0 km/h
                    Temperature: 57.0∞C
                    Temperature: 30.0∞C
                    Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
                    Voltage: 12.319 V

009746 - A/C Refrigerant Distribution Valve 
               P2612 - 004 - Short to Ground
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 01100100
                    Fault Priority: 0
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 255
                    Mileage: 167380 km
                    Time Indication: 0

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 190 /min
                    Load: 30.2 %
                    Speed: 0.0 km/h
                    Temperature: 56.0∞C
                    Temperature: 31.0∞C
                    Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
                    Voltage: 10.668 V

000054 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B1 S2: Heating Circuit 
               P0036 - 004 - Malfunction / Open Circuit - MIL ON
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 11100100
                    Fault Priority: 0
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 255
                    Mileage: 167380 km
                    Time Indication: 0

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 190 /min
                    Load: 30.2 %
                    Speed: 0.0 km/h
                    Temperature: 56.0∞C
                    Temperature: 31.0∞C
                    Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
                    Voltage: 10.668 V

001152 - Coolant Fan Control Circuit 1 
               P0480 - 004 - Electrical Malfunction - MIL ON
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 11100100
                    Fault Priority: 0
                    Fault Frequency: 1
                    Reset counter: 255
                    Mileage: 167380 km
                    Time Indication: 0

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 190 /min
                    Load: 30.2 %
                    Speed: 0.0 km/h
                    Temperature: 56.0∞C
                    Temperature: 31.0∞C
                    Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
                    Voltage: 10.668 V

000258 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70) 
               P0102 - 002 - Signal too Low - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00100010
                    Fault Priority: 0
                    Fault Frequency: 11
                    Reset counter: 255
                    Mileage: 167380 km
                    Time Indication: 0

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 3192 /min
                    Load: 10.2 %
                    Speed: 63.0 km/h
                    Temperature: 91.0∞C
                    Temperature: 54.0∞C
                    Absolute Pres.: 1000.0 mbar
                    Voltage: 13.970 V


Readiness: 0010 1101
```


----------



## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

The TTRS lower oil pan is a direct bolt on and it has the oil level sensor on it. HTH

Looks like 212$ from GAP. Pretty cheap considering plug and play. 

http://genuineaudiparts.com/parts/2...iteid=214407&vehicleid=379029&diagram=1371950

Congrats too. 

Hank


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

URHank said:


> The TTRS lower oil pan is a direct bolt on and it has the oil level sensor on it. HTH
> 
> Looks like 212$ from GAP. Pretty cheap considering plug and play.
> 
> ...


Great suggestion. So that leaves the question of wiring for the sensor. A little research will show whether it's part of the body or engine harnesses. If the sensor feeds into the gauge cluster, I suspect it's run via the body harness, which means it's still there in the car.

Separately, the spark plug wells are filled with oil. So we have a failed head cover gasket. Or an issue with the crankcase ventilation. Need to get that sorted next.


----------



## mjb8482 (Mar 4, 2008)

From your pictures above it looks like the valve cover breather is still attached to the intake manifold. Boost in the valve cover can certainly lead to oil in the plug wells... I know from experience!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

My guess is that the PCV valve isn't going to hold that boost signal coming through from the intake manifold hose, is it? And so you end up with this:

Look for the little red arrow….









…here it is close up

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content











So the stock PCV system can't stay in place. Not if only 10psi of boost breaks the plastic valve cover to pieces.


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

Dude thats the first they you do on a boosted 07k, You have to remove hose going from intake to valve cover..Or crank case and valve cover will see boost pressure. .Turbo 2.5 101


----------



## mjb8482 (Mar 4, 2008)

I also recommend check valves on the EVAP lines--if still intact. Most people don't have issues but I don't like the idea of boost in the charcoal canister and purge line. Boost killed 3 purge valves on my car before I put check valves in front of it--resulting in gas cap light and unfortunate gas filling incidents.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

youngblood7868 said:


> Dude thats the first they you do on a boosted 07k, You have to remove hose going from intake to valve cover..Or crank case and valve cover will see boost pressure. .Turbo 2.5 101


I'm not going to claim expertise in modifying the 2.5L motor. I am a turbocharger manufacturer and that's my primary field. When it comes to a project like this, I am approaching it at the same level as just about any of our (potential, future) customers would. So the PCV system has to go out. That's an expense, unfortunately. We'll route the valve cover line to a catch can and block off the intake manifold inlet. Here is a look at the bung on the manifold:











For that location I've selected the Integrated Engineering fitting:











That 1/8" NPT bung on the fitting is really interesting. I want to investigate using it for a WMI nozzle feed.


----------



## gugu1981 (Jul 25, 2011)

youngblood7868 said:


> Dude thats the first they you do on a boosted 07k, You have to remove hose going from intake to valve cover..Or crank case and valve cover will see boost pressure. .Turbo 2.5 101


I see that your PCV system is still intact. Can you share how you ran the connection?


Peter


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

Doug just go to home depot and get some 3/4 heater hose, And some brass fittings with a reducer. .It works perfect I will get a pic for you


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

gugu1981 said:


> I see that your PCV system is still intact. Can you share how you ran the connection?
> 
> 
> Peter


Mine is connected to breather hose on front of block with a tee, Then both are vent to atmosphere. .I going to either use a catch can and reroute back to turbo inlet..Or gonna weld a check valve in exhaust and vent to that way, That will also provide vacuum for pcv system


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

Iam using that spot on manifold for a boost gauge..I"ll get you guys a pic of setup


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

youngblood7868 said:


> Mine is connected to breather hose on front of block with a tee, Then both are vent to atmosphere. .I going to either use a catch can and reroute back to turbo inlet..Or gonna weld a check valve in exhaust and vent to that way, That will also provide vacuum for pcv system


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

youngblood7868 said:


>


About that plactic tee visible in the top of these two pictures: I can see a hose coming down from the valve cover and a second going straight back towards the block. Assuming that second one is a reroute of the crankcase vent line, where does that vent line go to in stock configuration? Is there a second bung going into the intake manifold for it?


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> About that plactic tee visible in the top of these two pictures: I can see a hose coming down from the valve cover and a second going straight back towards the block. Assuming that second one is a reroute of the crankcase vent line, where does that vent line go to in stock configuration? Is there a second bung going into the intake manifold for it?


Here's a few more pics, Its not connected to intake manifold anywhere..Iam using port off intake manifold for boost gauge..Both valve cover and front off block breather are venting to atmosphere for now


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> About that plactic tee visible in the top of these two pictures: I can see a hose coming down from the valve cover and a second going straight back towards the block. Assuming that second one is a reroute of the crankcase vent line, where does that vent line go to in stock configuration? Is there a second bung going into the intake manifold for it?


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> About that plactic tee visible in the top of these two pictures: I can see a hose coming down from the valve cover and a second going straight back towards the block. Assuming that second one is a reroute of the crankcase vent line, where does that vent line go to in stock configuration? Is there a second bung going into the intake manifold for it?


I don't have hook to manifold anywhere, Where pcv is coming off manifold, Iam using that point for boost gauge


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

Not sure why it double posted


----------



## killerbunny (Jul 10, 2008)

Doug if I remember correctly that line you are talking about was hooked up to the stock engine cover/air intake. But it has been a long time since I have seen a stock setup.


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

killerbunny said:


> Doug if I remember correctly that line you are talking about was hooked up to the stock engine cover/air intake. But it has been a long time since I have seen a stock setup.


Correct the front breather hooks to port right before throttle body, Since thats gone it has to go somewhere


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> ...where does that vent line go to in stock configuration? Is there a second bung going into the intake manifold for it?


I found it. The outlet side was just dangling loose beneath the throttle body.











…and there it goes to attach somewhere near the oil filter assembly.


----------



## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Doug, you're going to lose your undead cred if you keep burning the midnight oil at the shop and don't go out and get drunk somewhere on a summer Saturday.


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> I found it. The outlet side was just dangling loose beneath the throttle body.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes it attach's to block near oil filter housing. ..Did you understand how I had the rest setup?


----------



## gugu1981 (Jul 25, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> About that plactic tee visible in the top of these two pictures: I can see a hose coming down from the valve cover and a second going straight back towards the block. Assuming that second one is a reroute of the crankcase vent line, where does that vent line go to in stock configuration? Is there a second bung going into the intake manifold for it?



Doug,

In the stock configuration, that hose routes back to the intake, right before the throttle body. It's one of the 2 ports in these pictures (can't find a stock picture, but many of the aftermarket intakes have the same 2 ports for plug and play installation). The other port is for the SAI.



























Peter



PS: here's a custom intake where the tube is cut off and reused from the stock intake


----------



## mjb8482 (Mar 4, 2008)

That brings up another point. It looks like the engine you are using has a MAF sensor. If this is the case (and you plan on keeping the SAI system intact), you'll need to route the SAI pump intake hose to the intake after the MAF, or you'll end up with an annoying CEL that won't go away.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

OK. So thanks to everyone's posts we have a clear picture of the two PCV ventilation system hoses which need to be addressed. In stock layout they are both connected to locations that see boost. So the most straightforward solution is to reroute the lines to upstream of the turbocharger (and after the MAF). This way the emissions system, although modified, is still functional and compliant.


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> OK. So thanks to everyone's posts we have a clear picture of the two PCV ventilation system hoses which need to be addressed. In stock layout they are both connected to locations that see boost. So the most straightforward solution is to reroute the lines to upstream of the turbocharger (and after the MAF). This way the emissions system, although modified, is still functional and compliant.


You could also use a catch can, That will keep you from filling your charge pipes and IC with oily residue..


----------



## gugu1981 (Jul 25, 2011)

here's how Blue Water Performance has their kit. They ran the PCV hose directly to the intake, in front of the turbo. Combining that with a catch can may be the ticket. 











Peter


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

gugu1981 said:


> here's how Blue Water Performance has their kit. They ran the PCV hose directly to the intake, in front of the turbo. Combining that with a catch can may be the ticket.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have a friend who has his venting to his exhaust, All you need is check valve, Weld a 3/4 inch threaded pipe at a 45degree angle. ..I will find a pic


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

This also provides vacuum for pcv system. ..


----------



## gugu1981 (Jul 25, 2011)

youngblood7868 said:


> This also provides vacuum for pcv system. ..


didn't someone try this and reported that the vacuum from the exhaust is too strong, and oil was being sucked out of the engine through the PCV system?



Peter


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

gugu1981 said:


> didn't someone try this and reported that the vacuum from the exhaust is too strong, and oil was being sucked out of the engine through the PCV system?
> 
> 
> 
> Peter


Must have been on different engine, My buddy has his setup like this no issues


----------



## vwluger22 (Jan 25, 2005)

Thygret tried it and was sucking oil out through the exhaust because the vacuum was to much. He currently has a down draft tube instead I have the same setup as well with no issues.


----------



## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

vwluger22 said:


> Thygret tried it and was sucking oil out through the exhaust because the vacuum was to much. He currently has a down draft tube instead I have the same setup as well with no issues.


Just get a recirculating catch can --that way you still reuptake for emissions and you don't suck on oil.

Speaking of Fred --where in the Hell is he these days?


----------



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

gugu1981 said:


> didn't someone try this and reported that the vacuum from the exhaust is too strong, and oil was being sucked out of the engine through the PCV system?
> 
> 
> 
> Peter


yes. i was loosing a LOT of oil.. about 1qt every 1k miles or less.

also, my trunk area was always covered in an oil film due to the burned oil/ fumes.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

*Data logging the 07K906032-C ECU*

The ECU of choice for a swap like this is the 07K906032-C unit from a manual-transmission, early model 2.5 New Beetle. Because it is an engine computer for a naturally-aspirated car, data logging it presents some challenges. The biggest one is the lack of measurement data for most of the blocks associated with load. Using VCDS, I created a measurement block map, which outputs all of the available blocks. Here is the result of that scan:


```
;SW:07K-906-032-C   HW:Hardware-No ---  Engine								
;Component:R5              G   7829	 Coding:0000001							
;Monday	21	July	2014	13:32:33:19161				
;VCDS Version: Release 12.12.2  Data version: 20140212								
;VCID: 2959452E83B3FB56EC9-5122								
								
Group	Field 1	Data type	Field 2	Data type	Field 3	Data type	Field 4	Data type
1	0 /min	RPM	25.0°C	Temperature	0.00%	Lambda	110010	Bin. Bits
2	0 /min	RPM	100.00%	Load	0.00 ms	Inj. On Time	0.00 g/s	Mass Flow
3	0 /min	RPM	0.00 g/s	Mass Flow	7.50%	Load	0.0 °BTDC	Ign. Timing
4	0 /min	RPM	12.110 V	Voltage	25.0°C	Temperature	32.0°C	Temperature
5	0 /min	RPM	100.00%	Load	0.0 km/h	Speed	Idle	 
6	0 /min	RPM	100.00%	Load	32.0°C	Temperature	0.00%	Lambda
10	0 /min	RPM	100.00%	Load	7.50%	Load	0.0 °BTDC	Ign. Timing
11	0 /min	RPM	25.0°C	Temperature	32.0°C	Temperature	0.0 °BTDC	Ign. Timing
14	0 /min	RPM	100.00%	Load	0	Count	Disabled	 
15	0	Count	0	Count	0	Count	Disabled	 
16	0	Count	0	Count	 	 	Disabled	 
18	0 /min	RPM	0 /min	RPM	0.00%	Load	0.00%	Load
20	0.0°KW	Idle Stabilization	0.0°KW	Idle Stabilization	0.0°KW	Idle Stabilization	0.0°KW	Idle Stabilization
21	0.0°KW	Idle Stabilization	 	 	 	 	 	 
22	0 /min	RPM	100.00%	Load	0.0°KW	Idle Stabilization	0.0°KW	Idle Stabilization
23	0 /min	RPM	100.00%	Load	0.0°KW	Idle Stabilization	0.0°KW	Idle Stabilization
24	0 /min	RPM	100.00%	Load	0.0°KW	Idle Stabilization	 	 
26	3.861 V	Voltage	3.861 V	Voltage	3.861 V	Voltage	3.861 V	Voltage
27	3.861 V	Voltage	 	 	 	 	 	 
28	0 /min	RPM	100.00%	Load	25.0°C	Temperature	Test OFF	 
30	0	Bin. Bits	0	Bin. Bits	 	 	 	 
31	1	Lambda Factor	0.891	Lambda Factor	 	 	 	 
32	-3.60%	Lambda	0.00%	Lambda	 	 	 	 
33	0.00%	Lambda	1.520 V	Voltage	 	 	 	 
34	0 /min	RPM	25°C	CAT Temp.	0.805	Lambda Factor	Test OFF	 
36	0.435 V	Voltage	Test OFF	 	 	 	 	 
37	100.00%	Load	0.435 V	Voltage	0	Difference	Test OFF	 
41	502 ohms	Resistance	Htg. S1 OFF	 	 	 	Htg. S2 OFF	 
43	0 /min	RPM	24.0°C	Temperature	0.435 V	Voltage	Test OFF	 
46	0 /min	RPM	 	 	0	(no units)	Test OFF	 
50	0 /min	RPM	0 /min	RPM	A/C-Low	 	Compr.OFF	 
51	0 /min	RPM	0 /min	RPM	0	Count	12.110 V	Voltage
52	0 /min	RPM	0 /min	RPM	A/C-Low	 	 	 
54	0 /min	RPM	Idle	 	0.00%	Load	7.50%	Load
55	0 /min	RPM	0.00%	Lambda	-5.10%	Lambda	0	Bin. Bits
56	0 /min	RPM	0 /min	RPM	0.00%	Lambda	0	Bin. Bits
57	0 /min	RPM	0 /min	RPM	Compr.OFF	 	0.00%	Load
60	15.60%	Duty Cycle	84.00%	Duty Cycle	0	Count	ADP. O.K.	 
61	0 /min	RPM	12.110 V	Voltage	7.50%	Load	0	Bin. Bits
62	15.60%	Duty Cycle	84.00%	Duty Cycle	14.50%	Duty Cycle	7.40%	Duty Cycle
63	14.50%	Duty Cycle	 	 	 	 	 	 
64	0.500 V	Voltage	4.600 V	Voltage	0.800 V	Voltage	4.280 V	Voltage
66	0.0 km/h	Speed	1100	Bin. Bits	0.0 km/h	Speed	11	Bin. Bits
67	 	 	1100	Bin. Bits	 	 	 	 
70	0.00%	Load	0.00%	Lambda	0.00%	Load	Test OFF	 
71	Reed Open	 	 	 	 	 	Test OFF	 
77	0 /min	RPM	0.00 g/s	Mass Flow	-100.00%	Lambda	Test OFF	 
80	000-000 00.00.00 -------- 0000 0000	 						
81	3VWSW31C66M412931 VWZ5Z0F0278192   <>   	 						
82	0000000000032    <>    000 00 <>  <>	 						
85	167490 km	Mileage	25	Count	0	Count	7	Count
86	1101101	Bin. Bits	111101	Bin. Bits	111111	Bin. Bits	 	 
87	1101101	Bin. Bits	0	Bin. Bits	0	Bin. Bits	 	 
88	11111000	Bin. Bits	11101111	Bin. Bits	10001000	Bin. Bits	 	 
89	0	Count	OK	 	 	 	 	 
90	0 /min	RPM	OFF	 	0.0°KW	Idle Stabilization	 	 
91	0 /min	RPM	11.80%	Load	0.0°KW	Idle Stabilization	0.0°KW	Idle Stabilization
93	0 /min	RPM	-6.0°KW	Idle Stabilization	4.0°KW	Idle Stabilization	3.5°KW	Idle Stabilization
94	0 /min	RPM	0.0°KW	Idle Stabilization	0.0°KW	Idle Stabilization	Test OFF	 
99	0 /min	RPM	25.0°C	Temperature	0.00%	Lambda	O2-Reg.OFF	 
100	1101101	Bin. Bits	25.0°C	Temperature	0.00 s	Time	10010000	Bin. Bits
101	0 /min	RPM	100.00%	Load	0.00 ms	Inj. On Time	0.00 g/s	Mass Flow
102	0 /min	RPM	25.0°C	Temperature	32.0°C	Temperature	0.00 ms	Inj. On Time
104	25.0°C	Temperature	0.00%	Lambda	0.00%	Lambda	0.00%	Lambda
105	0 /min	RPM	100.00%	Load	25.0°C	Temperature	OFF	 
107	0 /min	RPM	0.00%	Lambda	 	 	Test OFF	 
120	0 /min	RPM	399.8 Nm	Torque	227.4 Nm	Torque	ASR OFF	 
122	0 /min	RPM	399.8 Nm	Torque	227.4 Nm	Torque	No Torq Red	 
125	 	 	ABS 1	 	Instruments 1	 	 	 
126	 	 	 	 	Airbag 0	 	 	 
130	25.0°C	Temperature	OFF	 	20.00%	Load	OFF	 
131	25.0°C	Temperature	90.0°C	Temperature	OFF	 	20.00%	Load
132	 	 	0.0°C	Temperature	0.00%	Load	1100	Bin. Bits
134	 	 	28.0°C	Temperature	32.0°C	Temperature	25.0°C	Temperature
135	OFF	 	11.00%	Load	11.00%	Load	 	 
137	A/C-Low	 	Compr.OFF	 	0.00%	Load	0.00%	Load
164	 	 	 	 	0	Difference	 	 
165	0.435 V	Voltage	0	Difference	0	Difference	0	Bin. Bits
166	1	Lambda Factor	 	 	0	(no units)	1	Bin. Bits
201	1275.0 mbar	Absolute Pres.	0.0 mbar	Absolute Pres.	1015.0 mbar	Absolute Pres.	1000101	Bin. Bits
202	0.00 s	Time	0.00 s	Time	 	 	1	Bin. Bits
203	502 ohms	Resistance	7	(no units)	1.60%	Load	1	Bin. Bits
204	0 /min	RPM	0.0 km/h	Speed	25.0°C	Temperature	1	Bin. Bits
205	1275.0 mbar	Absolute Pres.	0.0 mbar	Absolute Pres.	1035.0 mbar	Absolute Pres.	1001	Bin. Bits
206	0 /min	RPM	100.00%	Load	25.0°C	Temperature	1	Bin. Bits
207	32.0°C	Temperature	1	Lambda Factor	-3.60%	Lambda	1100001	Bin. Bits
208	1	Lambda Factor	0	Count	0.805	Lambda Factor	1	Bin. Bits
209	0	Difference	0	Count	0	Difference	1	Bin. Bits
211	25.50 kOhm	Resistance	 	 	24.0°C	Temperature	11	Bin. Bits
213	0.435 V	Voltage	0.891	Lambda Factor	24.0°C	Temperature	1	Bin. Bits
215	1	Lambda Factor	0.891	Lambda Factor	0.435 V	Voltage	1	Bin. Bits
216	0 /min	RPM	0	Bin. Bits	 	 	0	Bin. Bits
217	0	(no units)	142	(no units)	0	Count	110001	Bin. Bits
218	0 /min	RPM	0.0°KW	Idle Stabilization	0.0°KW	Idle Stabilization	1	Bin. Bits
219	0.008	Difference	1	(no units)	1.11	(no units)	1	Bin. Bits
220	0.00 g/s	Mass Flow	0	(no units)	1	Bin. Bits	1	Bin. Bits
221	0.0 mbar	Absolute Pres.	0 mbar	Pressure	0.0 s	Time	1	Bin. Bits
222	10001	Bin. Bits	1	Bin. Bits	0	Bin. Bits	0	Bin. Bits
223	-100.00%	Lambda	0.00 g/s	Mass Flow	-100.00%	Lambda	1	Bin. Bits
224	0.00%	Load	0.00%	Lambda	0.00%	Load	1	Bin. Bits
225	0.00 g/s	Mass Flow	0	(no units)	0	Count	1	Bin. Bits
226	0 /min	RPM	0	Count	0.00 g/s	Mass Flow	1100	Bin. Bits
227	25.0°C	Temperature	0.0 kg	Mass/Weight	6.8 kg	Mass/Weight	1	Bin. Bits
228	113.33 g/s	Mass Flow	224.4 km/h	Speed	0	Count	Test OFF	 
229	32.0°C	Temperature	25.0°C	Temperature	 	 	30.0°C	Temperature
230	650°C	CAT Temp.	25°C	CAT Temp.	 	 	 	 
231	0.00%	Lambda	1	Lambda Factor	-3.60%	Lambda	1	Bin. Bits
232	3	Count	7	Count	6	Count	Disabled	 
233	8	Count	10	Count	 	 	Disabled	 
234	11	Bin. Bits	11111	Bin. Bits	0	Bin. Bits	0	Bin. Bits
235	 	 	 	 	 	 	11111	Bin. Bits
236	0	Bin. Bits	0	Bin. Bits	Enabled	 	ADP. Run	 
237	Enabled	 	Enabled	 	Enabled	 	 	 
238	1	(no units)	1	(no units)	1	(no units)	100	Bin. Bits
239	0.00 g/s	Mass Flow	0.00 g/s	Mass Flow	213.89 g/s	Mass Flow	1	Bin. Bits
241	8	Count	0.00%	Load	12.110 V	Voltage	0.00 bar	Pressure
242	4.5°C	Temperature	A/C-Low	 	0.0°C	Temperature	25.0°C	Temperature
243	0.00 s	Time	0	Bin. Bits	0	Bin. Bits	1	Bin. Bits
244	0.00 g/s	Mass Flow	-100.00%	Lambda	0.00%	Lambda	0	Count
245	227.4 Nm	Torque	 	 	 	 	 	 
247	 	 	1	Lambda Factor	0.891	Lambda Factor	 	 
248	0.00 g/s	Mass Flow	 	 	 	 	 	 
249	136	Count	52	Count	100	Bin. Bits	101	Bin. Bits
250	-100.00%	Lambda	-100.00%	Lambda	-100.00%	Lambda	-100.00%	Lambda
251	-5.10%	Lambda	0.00%	Lambda	0.00%	Lambda	0.00%	Lambda
252	0.435 V	Voltage	0	Difference	0	Difference	 	 
253	0.00 g/s	Mass Flow	1.11	(no units)	1	(no units)
```

The missing blocks that hurt the most are these:

*4.3.9 Boost Pressure Control Blocks*











All that's left is the one data point described simply as "load". So that's a hurdle for tuning. I'd be interested to know if any other ECUs have a broader gamut of measurement.


----------



## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Doug, you may just have to do this old school and buy a few gauges. Hopefully there's an easier way, but every time I've put an N/A car under pressure, it's what I've done.

When I was building Focci, my SCT flasher had analog gauge input for data logging --I got measurements on boost, A/F et al that weren't measured by the factory ECU. You might be able to work out something like that.


----------



## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

thygreyt said:


> yes. i was loosing a LOT of oil.. about 1qt every 1k miles or less.
> 
> also, my trunk area was always covered in an oil film due to the burned oil/ fumes.


Good to "see" ya Fred. Where ya been hidin'?


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

vwluger22 said:


> Thygret tried it and was sucking oil out through the exhaust because the vacuum was to much. He currently has a down draft tube instead I have the same setup as well with no issues.


Just talk to my buddy about his setup, He experienced same thing. .It was too much vacuum as well..He has some kind of adjustable restricter in place now, Thats limits vacuum flow..I will get more info for you guys and pics


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> Doug, you may just have to do this old school and buy a few gauges. Hopefully there's an easier way, but every time I've put an N/A car under pressure, it's what I've done.


For the purposes of monitoring/logging, the FrankenTT-RS is actually really well sorted. In addition to the info available over OBD2 with VAG-COM, the car also has these two systems:

BoostManager: Developed by Eurodyne, it is capable of electronic control of a turbocharger by direct link to an N75 valve. Additionally, it supports a secondary fuel pump and a WMI system. It has a data logger for multiple performance parameters. Currently, the BM is monitoring exhaust back-pressures ahead of the turbine rotor and fuel pressure.

Performance Parameters Display (PPD): this product was manufactured by STE, which unfortunately has suspended operations. The PPD interfaces with the instrument cluster harness to display performance data over the central LCD on the TT. It also could have supported the Mk6 gauge cluster, but it looks like that will not be happening in the foreseeable future. When integrated to the body harness' instrument cluster wiring, it can pick up data for coolant temperature, intake air temperature & vehicle speed. It also has a standalone MAP sensor for boost monitoring and auxiliary 0-5v inputs. The FrankenTT uses those inputs for EGT monitoring and O2 mixtures. Both of these latter two data sets require additional sensors and other hardware. 

For more information on these systems here are some forum posts I have made in the past:


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...nTT-is-go!&p=81927856&viewfull=1#post81927856
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...Parameters-Display-(PPD)-installation-and-use
http://www.vwvortex.com/FrankenTT/page35.htm
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...nTT-is-go!&p=81900186&viewfull=1#post81900186


----------



## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Would it be worth fitting either of these to my Golf? I wasn't going to run w/m --but I might skip E85 and do that if it's worthwhile and I get a boost controller out of it.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

The Eurodyne Boost Manager is tailor-made for applications like a turbo'd NA engine. It has complete PID-based control of boost. Because the test car actually already HAS a boost sensor integrated into the PPD unit, the BoostManager's MAP sensor is picking up exhaust manifold pressures. That allows comparative measurements such as these taken today:


----------



## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

It'd be nice when you make your F25 thread if you'd write a section on how to properly set this up on a factory 2.5L car.

If it'll be worthwhile and I could do things like reduce boost in 1st to maintain traction --I'm game for such a product, especially if you sold a proper integration harness.
Shame the other product isn't available for our cars --it'd be even more useful.

Guess I'll just buy a vent mounted multi-gauge.


----------



## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

This has probably already been asked Doug but was there any reason you didn't go stand-alone with the swap? It seems like a Lugtronic would have been perfect with this, is it due to emissions?


----------



## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

l88m22vette said:


> This has probably already been asked Doug but was there any reason you didn't go stand-alone with the swap? It seems like a Lugtronic would have been perfect with this, is it due to emissions?


He's making a turbo kit for 2.5Ls. He's got to get the tuning right whirs he's at it :thumbup:


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

l88m22vette said:


> This has probably already been asked Doug but was there any reason you didn't go stand-alone with the swap? It seems like a Lugtronic would have been perfect with this, is it due to emissions?


The chief purpose of the project -- and all the posts etc -- is to promote the viability of tuning the 2.5L for forced induction. Yes, having the whole thing wrapped in an Audi TT is adding complexity, but I am nevertheless trying to foster the public attitude: _"Let's Do This"_ So the use of stock engine management is important if we're going to build a mainstream product here.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Here's a work-in-progress boost log of the turbo being run on actuator pressure. As soon as we finalize this performance level -- I'll call it Stage 2F -- we'll have the car on the dyno. And we'll start our own thread rather than hijack the OP's.

Three runs:


----------



## gugu1981 (Jul 25, 2011)

any plans to run the turbo with SRI and see what comes of it?


Peter


----------



## Gunbunny08 (Nov 13, 2008)

Unfortunately, if you look at the pics you'll notice they have the hydraulic power steering pump on their 2.5L. So it doesn't look like we'll see the outcome of that combo until they release this kit and someone tries it with a SRI.


----------



## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> The chief purpose of the project -- and all the posts etc -- is to promote the viability of tuning the 2.5L for forced induction. Yes, having the whole thing wrapped in an Audi TT is adding complexity, but I am nevertheless trying to foster the public attitude: _"Let's Do This"_ So the use of stock engine management is important if we're going to build a mainstream product here.


Gotcha, sorry I kept seeing it from a TT guy's perspective, hope things continue to progress :thumbup:


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

gugu1981 said:


> any plans to run the turbo with SRI and see what comes of it?


We'll be tinkering with the intake manifold, but as said already the New Beetle engine's "legacy" power steering system is a double-edged sword. It allows the power steering to be remain functional in a Mk4-style car. But the required pump gets in the way of the intake manifold. My guess is we'll have to compromise with a custom longer-runner unit that's capable of supporting more boost. But for a "Stage 2F" level of build -- one that keeps the motor stock -- the plastic intake manifold that came with the motor is fine.


----------



## gugu1981 (Jul 25, 2011)

Gunbunny08 said:


> Unfortunately, if you look at the pics you'll notice they have the hydraulic power steering pump on their 2.5L. So it doesn't look like we'll see the outcome of that combo until they release this kit and someone tries it with a SRI.


Ah, didn't see that. Bummer.

Mostly wondering whether the motor, combined with an SRI, would exceed the capabilities of the F25 or otherwise create issues.



Peter


----------



## gugu1981 (Jul 25, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> We'll be tinkering with the intake manifold, but as said already the New Beetle engine's "legacy" power steering system is a double-edged sword. It allows the power steering to be remain functional in a Mk4-style car. But the required pump gets in the way of the intake manifold. My guess is we'll have to compromise with a custom longer-runner unit that's capable of supporting more boost. But for a "Stage 2F" level of build -- one that keeps the motor stock -- the plastic intake manifold that came with the motor is fine.


Not sure if this is possible at all, but would the effort be better spent trying to relocate the pump?


Peter


----------



## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

Do an electric remote. We do it all the time. The Mr2 pump is a nice pump that gives good feel on these cars. We usually put them in the trunk and run the lines under the car. 

Hank


----------



## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Here's a work-in-progress boost log of the turbo being run on actuator pressure. As soon as we finalize this performance level -- I'll call it Stage 2F -- we'll have the car on the dyno. And we'll start our own thread rather than hijack the OP's.
> 
> Three runs:


Ima need one of these snails, good sir.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

We've got boostvalve's MBC installed in the car now. Set to a 12psi crack pressure here are the stats:



















Good EGTs at this moderate boost level. And excellent ignition timing figures. Virtually zero CFs. The car feels like a suitable "Stage2F" level. Dyno test next week. Stay tuned for some mindless videos...


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Mind sharing inducer/exducer specs on the comp/turbine and the turbine housing ar? I'm curious to see how the boost profile relates to the wheel size.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

here's about a minute-and-a-half of audio taken from the exhaust and under the hood:


----------



## HollisJoy (Dec 26, 2011)

Ok, sign me up!


----------



## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

HollisJoy said:


> Ok, sign me up!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


Hey! Your place in line is behind me dammit!



Said with :heart: --no but really, I've been begging since late 2012.


----------



## HollisJoy (Dec 26, 2011)

Maybe he'll have a 2 fur.
2 fur Tuesday!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Very productive day of tuning. Car was on the dyno at ICS in Stamford, CT. Ryan at C2 was feeding revisions as fast as we could log the car. Thanks to both companies for such great cooperation.

Video and data tomorrow.


----------



## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Very productive day of tuning. Car was on the dyno at ICS in Stamford, CT. Ryan at C2 was feeding revisions as fast as we could log the car. Thanks to both companies for such great cooperation.
> 
> Video and data tomorrow.


Dammit Doug! Let ME in on the fun!!!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Getting that leaky exhaust manifold fixed on a beautiful day in Der Park, NY. Ed Woolsey of FFE here is grilling steaks while the techs get the car sorted. When finished it will have electronic boost management.


----------



## kueckerdj09 (Jun 1, 2011)

I'm excited to see what this will do.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Leak at the exhaust manifold is fixed. Logs show a nice improvement in spool. On MBC control the intake manifold sees 10psi by 3000rpm. All the other measurements taken by the PPD logger are good as well:


----------



## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

Nice progress.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Issam Abed said:


> I sent a set of TT-RS cams and 2.5 Rabbit cams off to be checked for actual duration/specs. I will do a follow up today to see the status if they are even done.


What results did you get from the camshaft measurements?


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

careful.


glad to see things are going great....:beer:


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> glad to see things are going great....:beer:


The car is dynamite. Even with the extraordinary mechanicals it drives with better refinement than it did on the 1.8T motor. Part throttle is smooth, the engine idles like stock, it turns on and off like it should. Every accessory works but for the A/C and cruise control -- two unimportant items in a car like this.

Flashing through the OBD port: no problems
Logging through the OBD port: even more stable than on the BEA-engine ECU
Boosting up to 20psi on the stock manifold: no cracks. It's fine at that pressure. Not that the motor would be if this happened regularly.
Lambda control on a steady-state 4bar pressure: Getting better with every C2 Revision
Engine Load calibration for raised airflows: Again, the C2 revisions have been able to handle the unconventional load values being recorded by the ECU.

With the BoostManager now modulating boost through the rev range, we're seeing ~260g/s of airflow at the top end. That's really good. 2.0L-with-K04-good.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Oh, yeah. And the VVT solenoid is operating the intake cam just like stock too:


----------



## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

that's great, glad to hear...:beer:


----------



## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

This is great :thumbup: awesome job FT/C2/NLS/FFE :thumbup:


----------



## pccompuman (Jul 20, 2007)

How does one (i.e. me) take care of these issues on your punch list? im doing a 2.5 swap in a mk4 and i have a good amount of these codes. Are these as simple as VCDS, or will i have to have a tuner do it, if a tuner has to do it, who??






[email protected] said:


> The car has been getting the final touchups necessary before testing gets underway. The shock bolt is replaced, new brakes on all four corners & the Eurodyne BoostManager is hooked up. As for the remaining electrical incompatibilities for this swap, I'm posting the VAG-COM error codes here. One other incompatibility for the engine isn't accompanied by a code: the 2.5L lacks an engine-pan oil level sensor, but the TT's instrument cluster expects to see one. So I am weighing my options for remedying that. My preference would be to create some kind of hybrid pan that has a sensor flange stitched onto it. Perhaps that can happen when the new rods/pistons go in. Otherwise, here is the "punch list" of codes that need to be smoothed out in-software:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

pccompuman said:


> How does one (i.e. me) take care of these issues on your punch list? im doing a 2.5 swap in a mk4 and i have a good amount of these codes. Are these as simple as VCDS, or will i have to have a tuner do it, if a tuner has to do it, who??


You can use thr tt-rs pan..it has oil sending unit


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

Bolts right up


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

pccompuman said:


> How does one (i.e. me) take care of these issues on your punch list? im doing a 2.5 swap in a mk4 and i have a good amount of these codes. Are these as simple as VCDS, or will i have to have a tuner do it, if a tuner has to do it, who??


The TT still has most of those codes, actually. We resolved the rear O2 sensor and the MAF sensor faults in software. The others are not impacting performance so we've left them untouched.


----------



## pccompuman (Jul 20, 2007)

ah. im just trying to look at this from and emissions standpoint. when i go for emissions, the check engine light must be off. the big pain in the ass seems like the p0480, im trying to sort it out, but so far no luck.


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

I'm glad I don't emissions where I live..I could run a standalone ecu really.


----------



## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

youngblood7868 said:


> I'm glad I don't emissions where I live..I could run a standalone ecu really.


You don't require functional ABS and traction control for inspection? I don't have emissions either but I still have to pass safety.


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> You don't require functional ABS and traction control for inspection? I don't have emissions either but I still have to pass safety.


No sir not here...They don't check anything. .They don't even pop hood..All my buddies with evos have disabled there abs etc...They check headlights horn and blinkers hazards thats it


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

I know its crazy here, I came from texas here..Texas they put sniffer in exhaust etc..Here if it looks like a car you can drive it on the road


----------



## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

More on topic:

Will this swap work into a Euro MK4? I'm moving to Denmark this spring and I'd like to get a tiny motor mk4 and swap it. Euros in the EU are SOOO SLOW!!! 



youngblood7868 said:


> I know its crazy here, I came from texas here..Texas they put sniffer in exhaust etc..Here if it looks like a car you can drive it on the road


Only about half of Texas counties have to do OBD port emissions and only OBD1 does a sniffer (which can't be for too much longer b/c those cars will age out soon).

Still, everyone here has to pass safety --which means ABS and ESC both need to be working if the car came with them.


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

Man that's a bummer...I never heard of them checking that..Where I lived in houston, They just did sniff test no abs or traction control check..


----------



## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

youngblood7868 said:


> Man that's a bummer...I never heard of them checking that..Where I lived in houston, They just did sniff test no abs or traction control check..


All this will be easier in the EU where importing cars and parts isn't such a PITA. If I can't do the swap I want I'll eother get a 2004 Focus RS or import a Stang GT. I've been wanting another Stang GT anyways. Fox body glory...


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

My car has no emissions crap on now, No cats welded in straight pipe


----------



## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

youngblood7868 said:


> My car has no emissions crap on now, No cats welded in straight pipe


Try importing a 1-off here and you'll understand why I'm glad to be moving to Europe where emissions are stricter but importing is easier.

I'm wanting to swap a MK4 platform car or a Rocco with a U.S. spec motor. That's so expensive here that it's not worthwhile, but in the EU it's pretty straightforward. Hopefully this will work out for me with less hassle than Doug had. Modding cars is a pretty rare hobby in the EU so tuner shops with the skills of NLS are hella hard to find.


----------



## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

I can only imagine


----------



## stef 4x4 (Jan 8, 2012)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> Try importing a 1-off here and you'll understand why I'm glad to be moving to Europe where emissions are stricter but importing is easier.
> 
> I'm wanting to swap a MK4 platform car or a Rocco with a U.S. spec motor. That's so expensive here that it's not worthwhile, but in the EU it's pretty straightforward. Hopefully this will work out for me with less hassle than Doug had. Modding cars is a pretty rare hobby in the EU so tuner shops with the skills of NLS are hella hard to find.


I don't think modding cars is rare in the EU!
However, each country has its own rules about what can be legal.
I live in the Netherlands and swapping a 2.5. engine in cars til 1998 is a lot easyer than in younger cars.
The 2.5.swap in my corrado for example was'nt a problem at all.
In Belgium you can forget a swap, no change to get it official and importing a car wich is not OEM is not possible overthere. 
I don't know the rules in Denmark.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> ...the 2.5L lacks an engine-pan oil level sensor, but the TT's instrument cluster expects to see one. So I am weighing my options for remedying that. My preference would be to create some kind of hybrid pan that has a sensor flange stitched onto it. Perhaps that can happen when the new rods/pistons go in.





URHank said:


> The TTRS lower oil pan is a direct bolt on and it has the oil level sensor on it. HTH
> 
> Looks like 212$ from GAP. Pretty cheap considering plug and play.
> 
> ...





[email protected] said:


> Great suggestion. So that leaves the question of wiring for the sensor. A little research will show whether it's part of the body or engine harnesses. If the sensor feeds into the gauge cluster, I suspect it's run via the body harness, which means it's still there in the car.



I am refreshing this thread to see if anyone here can shed light on the question wiring in the oil pan sensor. Is the sensor plugged into the body harness? Or did we lose that connector when we removed the 1.8T engine harness?

Thx


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

I believe the sensor runs in the same loom branch as the VSS and CTS.


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## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> I am refreshing this thread to see if anyone here can shed light on the question wiring in the oil pan sensor. Is the sensor plugged into the body harness? Or did we lose that connector when we removed the 1.8T engine harness?
> 
> Thx


The tt-rs has a oilpan with oil sensor on bottom..And it bolts right to 07k..Its plug n play


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> I believe the sensor runs in the same loom branch as the VSS and CTS.


Vehicle speed sensor and coolant temperature sensor. I'll dig around those two and see if I come up with an orphaned plug. Thx


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

youngblood7868 said:


> The tt-rs has a oilpan with oil sensor on bottom..And it bolts right to 07k..Its plug n play


Unfortunately, the sensor bung gets us only halfway. The other requirement is a connector in the wiring harness. Based on these pix of a 1.8T engine harness, it looks as though that plug gets lost when the harness is swapped for a 2.5L harness.




















I'd say the car will have to live with the startup warning light. It goes off after a moment, fortunately.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Unfortunately, the sensor bung gets us only halfway. The other requirement is a connector in the wiring harness. Based on these pix of a 1.8T engine harness, it looks as though that plug gets lost when the harness is swapped for a 2.5L harness.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


VAG-com?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> ...as said already the New Beetle engine's "legacy" power steering system is a double-edged sword. It allows the power steering to be remain functional in a Mk4-style car. But the required pump gets in the way of the intake manifold. My guess is we'll have to compromise with a custom longer-runner unit that's capable of supporting more boost. But for a "Stage 2F" level of build -- one that keeps the motor stock -- the plastic intake manifold that came with the motor is fine.





URHank said:


> Do an electric remote. We do it all the time. The Mr2 pump is a nice pump that gives good feel on these cars. We usually put them in the trunk and run the lines under the car.


The FrankenTT-RS has gotten to power and boost levels that are making the stock, plastic intake manifold less than ideal. So I'd like to explore the option of an electric pump. Does anyone have some insights into the MR2 unit suggested earlier?


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## JamesS (Nov 18, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> The FrankenTT-RS has gotten to power and boost levels that are making the stock, plastic intake manifold less than ideal. So I'd like to explore the option of an electric pump. Does anyone have some insights into the MR2 unit suggested earlier?


Have you looked at the mini cooper pump? I am looking at swapping a 2.5 in a Corrado and think I will use the mini power steering pump to allow for an aftermarket intake manifold.


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## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

Use the toyota mr2 electric power steering pump...Works awesome


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## youngblood7868 (Nov 12, 2012)

Sorry already mentioned. ..


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

JamesS said:


> Have you looked at the mini cooper pump? I am looking at swapping a 2.5 in a Corrado and think I will use the mini power steering pump to allow for an aftermarket intake manifold.


i have NOT. Tell me about it. I'm only just now learning about the pump from the Toyota. What series MINI Cooper uses an electric pump?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

OK. I found it. Kind of pricey new...











...but I'm sure this is available as a re-manufactured unit.


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## JamesS (Nov 18, 2008)

I think you could get one for $300-$500. They are a common failure on the mini but from what I have read that is due to it overheating if the fan fails. I believe in the mini it is mounted near the exhaust as well.


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## JamesS (Nov 18, 2008)

There are some cool renault and ford ones in Europe. They are nice because the reservoir and pump are one unit which would make for a clean installation.

Renault Clio/Kangoo pump looks nice 

http://www.acspowersteering.co.uk/renault-kangoo-electric-power-steering-pump-98-05/


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Assuming the pump can be sorted out (and that's jumping over things like how to power it on some kind of demand-basis), then the accessories layout has to be changed. Here's a picture of the pulley-drive PAS system of the New Beetle:










To delete that power steering pump, we'll need to convert the accessories layout to what you'd find on an electric-motor system. In other words the accessories rack has to come out, and a different one has to come in. That's a bit of a headache.


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## JamesS (Nov 18, 2008)

Newer MR2 has integrated electronic controller so it isn't always going full bore. Looks easy to wire and retrofit. 

http://honda-tech.com/road-racing-autocross-time-attack-19/ehps-redone-2528249/


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## killerbunny (Jul 10, 2008)

What if you make a bracket and pulley to replace the pump? it could bolt in place and free wheel, but the belt layout would be the same. 

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

JamesS said:


> Newer MR2 has integrated electronic controller so it isn't always going full bore. Looks easy to wire and retrofit.
> 
> http://honda-tech.com/road-racing-autocross-time-attack-19/ehps-redone-2528249/


I'm sold. So I've picked up one off Ebay for ~$300. The presence of a "controller" on the pump is a big deal. What that means is it has its own internal relay which can handle actuation of the pump. And that means it might just have the ability to duty cycle itself based on steering inputs. So here are some pix from one of those threads linked here:

Toyota MR2 Spyder electro-hydraulic pump:











Installed in a car's wheel-well:











Or in the trunk:











The interesting thing about this pump is its electrical components. The controller -- which handles the high amperage necessary to drive the pump -- is built right onto the pump. I've not found another which has this feature. And this means it is able to duty cycle itself based on load requests. Just how smart it is we've got to investigate, but I was surely intrigued by this post found in a Pontiac Fiero forum:



> I also used the 2000-2005 MR-2 Spyder pump. Its a complete system. It does not run all the time. There are no sensors to add to the steering wheel. It senses pressure. You move the wheel and it kicks in. It also has an input for your VSS speed sensor. At a given speed MPH it will shut down and its like standard steering... the pump has 3 or 4 stages of operation. There's an idle rpm so there is no lag when you need assist. From a stand still (car not moving) the instant you move the wheel the pump will quickly spool up to max rpm-pressure for assist. The less assist required it will step down the assist. 3 stages in all I believe.





killerbunny said:


> What if you make a bracket and pulley to replace the pump? it could bolt in place and free wheel, but the belt layout would be the same.


That's a good suggestion. I know some companies sell such "dummy" pulleys. Here's one example made by a company called EAA Engineering:

http://www.eaaengineering.com/steering-conversion-kits-lines/steering-de-power-conversion-kit-mk4/


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## TheMKVader (Jun 16, 2015)

I just read every page on this and i must say this is awesome! Keep up the good work.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Look at the terrific info on this mod available in this webpage: http://www.simonfamily.us/FocusEV/PowerSteering.htm

Pix from that page:





























I've forwarded all this to FFE's Ed Woolsey, who is very good with custom wiring. It'll be interesting to get started late this week.


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## JamesS (Nov 18, 2008)

I am on the hunt for one too. I'm a bit concerned that they don't look readily rebuildable. I wonder if any other units have an integrated control unit or if it is even really needed.


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## skidplate (May 4, 2004)

Subscribed. I'm swapping an 07K into a small chassis Audi, so I appreciate a good technical thread about these engines. :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

I'm from Chicago, originally. And in the City of Big Shoulders we have a saying: _Make no little plans_. So in that spirit, we're not going to just change out the steering pump. Not even just the accessories bracket. No, we're going pull the whole motor. And we're going to replace it with one built up with strengthened connecting rods, with high-compression FSI pistons, and with a short-runner intake manifold.

The engine parts are courtesy of forum sponsor INA Engineering, who provided the H-beam connecting rods and a set of matching pistons from the BPY engine. 10.5:1 compression, baby!

The engine? Well, that comes from Auto Haas in New Jersey, who happened to have this bad boy just waiting to be snatched up:





























So ForceFed's Ed Woolsey has a big project on his hands now. Get the new motor in for cleaning and prep, assembly with the upgraded parts, installation of the Rabbit-engine's accessory bracket (bye bye power steering pump), fitment of it all into the TT, & then lastly an installation of the electro-hydraulic pump.

That's a lot to cover. :thumbup:


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## JamesS (Nov 18, 2008)

Why high compression? I would have thought you would build 9:1 and up the boost safely.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Firstly because the FSI-engine pistons are economical. Secondly because the F25 is a fairly small turbo, which makes it suited to an engine oriented more to the engine range below 6000rpms. Thirdly, the Audi TTRS shares this 10.5:1 compression ratio. Yes, the TTRS also has direct fuel injection, but this car has water meth. I think that pretty well levels the playing field there. Lastly because I've always felt a responsive, high-compression engine teamed to a horsepower-oriented short runner intake was the best formula for an all-around performer.

Soon we'll see if I'm right or not.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Doug, I cannot emphasize enough the need to use OEM plugs and pigtails for the mr2 pump.

For the speed control, you have to pull the line from the ecu to the cluster. You cannot feed the link with the signal line directly from the vss. 

Here's a picture for size reference. I don't think fender mounts will work for this pump.
http://i.imgur.com/s6fyCrI.jpg

By the way, I don't think I can even get the flanges done for what we talked about in three deadline given.


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## Boyso (Nov 24, 2013)

Ha, that engine was posted a few times on the facebook group, Auto Haas didn't want to sell the manifold seperatly 

Can't wait to see this thing!


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Doug, I cannot emphasize enough the need to use OEM plugs and pigtails for the mr2 pump.


The breaker yard tells me they cut the harness to include those plugs.




Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> For the speed control, you have to pull the line from the ecu to the cluster. You cannot feed the link with the signal line directly from the vss.


I think refinements such as speed control input will be up to the car's next owner. We're winding down on time with this car and need to focus simply on demonstrating the turbo's output.




Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Here's a picture for size reference. I don't think fender mounts will work for this pump.





Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> By the way, I don't think I can even get the flanges done for what we talked about in three deadline given.


I reckoned it was a bad bet to have you undertake development for such as specialty part anyway. Let's see what this turbo can do on a short-runner intake -- _any_ short-runner intake -- and then you can evaluate whether you think there's a market for such a product on the pulley-drive motors.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

I too am building an engine!! and will be changin pistons/compression later on.

So im HUGELY interested in what yields out of the 10.5:1

if it works, then i'll follow.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

thygreyt said:


> So im HUGELY interested in what yields out of the 10.5:1



I have been biding my time for this phase for over a year. Somewhat counterintuitively, I'm a high-compression fan. Yes, it makes forced induction more difficult. But it is more fuel efficient and adds low-end responsiveness. So while it will be challenging to run the needed timing advance at high engine speeds, that's secondary for a turbo designer whose products live for 2500-5500rpms.

I want 18psi of boost by 3000rpms out of this turbo and this engine. That's not just knocking on the TTRS's door. It's banging on it.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Doug, I cannot emphasize enough the need to use OEM plugs and pigtails for the mr2 pump.



Looks like we're in business. Wiring harness pigtails are on the pump, just as promised by the seller:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Before we can reassemble the car with its new motor, it is time to tackle the TT225 O2M-series transmission's "clutch creep" that's dogged the car (and many others) for some time. The issue is caused by physical wear to the transmission case, which over time allows lateral play in the entire assembly. And that play degrades clutch performance. ForceFed's Ed Woolsey has an aggressive fix: he machines away a portion of the transmission housing and installs a steel bearing. Here's a picture of the case post-machining:











And here is his description of the modification:

_We removed the entire width of the magnesium case where the input shaft roller bearing circlip is retained, then bored a specified amount down to accept a steel ring. This creates a concentric and specific outer diameter so our propietary steel ring can be pressed in, permanently fixing the end play._​

So add another thing to look forward to when the car is back up and running: a good-as-new clutch.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

or buy our NLS shim kit for $89 and no machining needed....and its fixed 
http://nothingleavesstock.com/online-store/#!/02M-02Q-clutch-slave-shim-kit/p/13912883/category=2903030


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> or buy our NLS shim kit for $89 and no machining needed....and its fixed
> http://nothingleavesstock.com/online-store/#!/02M-02Q-clutch-slave-shim-kit/p/13912883/category=2903030


Sorry to have overlooked this fact. We have used this shim ourselves and it DOES work. But the part got mislaid over the course of this project and Ed Woolsey wanted to fix it his way.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

A couple of work-in-progress pix:

Two adapter fittings for the power steering lines into the steering rack:

Pressurized feed is M14 x 1.50 thread
Return is M16 x 1.50 thread











Here's the motor, prepped to go into the car:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Also, the power steering lines will be -6AN. The stock power steering return line, with its circuitous design, is really ungainly. We'll simplify the piping with this cooler installed in the grille:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Progress!

Pump is installed, taking the place of the external oil cooler:











The oil cooler gets relocated to under the passenger side:











And the clumsy, windy power steering return hard-lines get replaced with this nifty power steering fluid cooler:











Here's a look at the wiring. Pretty simple, just the relay as shown in the pictures above, and an inline fuse. The ignition 12v signal comes from under the dash.











The car is up and running. And that's a good thing, because it's slated for sale at the beginning of next month. We have to get the new engine broken in and put on the dyno. I have high hopes for 400+ awhp. And then the FrankenTT goes off into the sunset.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

*Toyota MR2 Spyder electric power steering modification*

The electric pump from the Toyota MR2 Spyder is working very well. Here is a short video we took just after powering it up. Aside from a couple of easily-sorted leaks it is finished. I had been really skeptical about the pump's ability to regulate itself, but sure enough it does. When there is no input from the steering wheel the pump idles down. When the wheel is moved at all, it quickly spins up to provide assist. The pump itself is almost inaudible over the sound of the engine at idle, but if you listen really closely during the second half of this video you can hear its faint whirring sound.







I am really surprised to find this is such a viable mod. Of course it's got limited application in our cars. Really it's only for those who'd entertain a 2.5L engine swap into a Mk4 chassis. But it works.


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Wow, that's really pretty slick!


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

So there haven't been any updates from us in a while because we've struggled with ECU misbehavior. First it was refusing to perform any O2 corrections, causing the actual Lambdas to be out of spec. We fixed that by restoring the Secondary Air system's "Combi-valve" and plugging it back into the harness. With O2 corrections back in business we then found the ECU is pulling 12 degrees of timing whenever the throttle is touched. Any input from the accelerator and the data logs show this:


```
G003	G020	G020	G020	G020	G021
					
Group 3 - Field 3	Group 20 - Field 0	Group 20 - Field 1	Group 20 - Field 2	Group 20 - Field 3	Group 21 - Field 0
Ignition - Timing Angle	Cylinder 1 Ignition - Angle Delay	Cylinder 2 Ignition - Angle Delay	Cylinder 3 Ignition - Angle Delay	Cylinder 4 Ignition - Angle Delay	Cylinder 5 Ignition - Angle Delay
 °BTDC	°KW	°KW	°KW	°KW	°KW
20.30	0	0	0	0	0
18.80	0	0	0	0	0
18.00	0	0	0	0	0
19.50	12	12	12	12	12
5.30	12	12	12	12	12
4.50	12	12	12	12	12
```

The ECU is pulling timing across all the cylinders as soon as it sees accelerator input. I am at a loss for why. There are no codes to give us a clue. But it must be a mechanical fault. We have to do some digging.


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## impulse byer (Mar 8, 2003)

So glad I found this thread. Lots of info I was looking for!


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