# Water/Meth injection - just for power or efficiency too? Downsides?



## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

My GTI is a daily driver, and I commute about 350 miles a week. Power is nice but so is efficiency.

Does water/meth injection improve MPG in the 2.0t FSI engine? Assuming that the ecu has been chipped.

For downsides I am aware that some people have had to replace their throttle body multiple times, and others have not, and the root cause is debatable, and it may be avoided by injecting after the tb.

Are there any other downsides?

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## tonsef (Dec 9, 2011)

Im always curious about w/m. Subd


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

tonsef said:


> Im always curious about w/m. Subd


Well, over on ih8mud, the people who add forced induction to 80 series land cruisers say they add w/m injection because the 1fz-fe engine has a tendency to knock with forced induction if you don't. 

But the 1fz-fe is a big ol' tractor motor. 4.5L straight six. Designed to run forever on crap gas in 3rd world countries. 80 series cruisers are stone age, and built like tanks. 

Wikipedia says it is sometimes used to increase fuel efficiency in forced induction systems. But wikipedia can say anything we want it to say in about 10 minutes. 

More power appeals to me. Increased efficiency and more power at the same time doubly so. But i need my GTI to be reliable because it is my daily driver. 

It's not a car just for fun. It's a car i spend a lot of time, in, and I'd prefer that time to be fun.


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

For example i live at a relatively high altitude. 4700 feet and change above sea level. We get 91 octane instead of 93 octane here, so that it will actually ignite. The air is thinner here. I don't know if high altitude affects the efficacy of w/m injection. 

We also experience winter here, with hard freezes. 

I've seen the threads about not running race gas in cold weather. 

Is this something I'd want to disable when it's 20 below freezing and i have to go to work?


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## tonsef (Dec 9, 2011)

ericj said:


> More power appeals to me. Increased efficiency and more power at the same time doubly so. But i need my GTI to be reliable because it is my daily driver.
> 
> It's not a car just for fun. It's a car i spend a lot of time, in, and I'd prefer that time to be fun.


 I am in the same boat. I commute 70 miles per day to school during the week. I too am looking at both performance and efficiency aspect of w/m. I have been debating it for a while now. 
I haven't committed yet because I may wait to clean the valves and do an entire engine refresh to get it on my mkv. I've read up on piecing it together for much cheaper than a lot of kits out there (parts seem fairly universal). I am mainly hesitant because I am worried about reliability and if it would end up costing me more than its worth (replacing TB's(possibly?), fluid, etc).

Regardless, still in this for some more info from those with experience.


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

the reports of tb replacements are interesting. it seems that the moving parts sometimes seem to expand or something. 

But there aren't enough data points to draw conclusions, because some people run a mix of HEET(tm) and blue windshield washer fluid, and some people run a mix of distilled water and pure methanol from the local race shop. 

I can't fathom putting windshield washer fluid into my engine.


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## Bill6211789 (Dec 11, 2009)

ericj said:


> My GTI is a daily driver, and I commute about 350 miles a week. Power is nice but so is efficiency.
> 
> Does water/meth injection improve MPG in the 2.0t FSI engine? Assuming that the ecu has been chipped.
> 
> ...


efficiency as in fuel savings i really doubt.....with needing to keep the w/m tank full your really going to offset any fuel savings even if you got any. 

The only real downside of W/M is the possibility of destroying the throttle body. Meth makes the plastic pieces on the inside of the TB swell, it all depends on the percentage of water to methanol. too much meth and you'll eff you TB. (see below for ways to avoid damage)

there are 2 things w/m are used for 1 is cooling being a turbo car cooler air is better esp when the turbo is an air heater. the cooling effects are from the water, if you want to cool things bc you dont want a bigger IC and you're looking for more consistent power you want to run a higher water (60/40) content and place the w/m bung closer to the intercooler. this way the meth will not be close enough to effect the TB

meth is for the octane boosting effect, for this you want to place the bung closer to the TB or even past the TB (past is better so there is no ill effect on the plastic TB) there is a company that uses a TB spacer that will place the nozzle just after the TB (50/50 w/m mix)



ericj said:


> the reports of tb replacements are interesting. it seems that the moving parts sometimes seem to expand or something.
> 
> But there aren't enough data points to draw conclusions, because some people run a mix of HEET(tm) and blue windshield washer fluid, and some people run a mix of distilled water and pure methanol from the local race shop.
> 
> I can't fathom putting windshield washer fluid into my engine.


using plain blue washer fluid is FINE, all the normal plain blue washer fluid is, is water, meth, and a very small and harmless amount of blue dye (if you look at things like boost juice they even have a red dye in them bc water and meth are clear) the heet is essential a meth booster (again just water and methanol)

i dont remember what exact mix people run but it was something like 1 gal of washer fluid + 1 bottle of Heet = a 60% water 40% meth mixture (or something similar)


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

Steam expansion in the combustion chamber should increase effective power as well, no?

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## Bill6211789 (Dec 11, 2009)

Not really 

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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

Bill6211789 said:


> Not really
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy SIII


How do you figure? Steam expansion is a time-honored method of converting heat into mechanical movement.

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## Bill6211789 (Dec 11, 2009)

With how small the motor is and the way the ECU adapts to octane its really not going to be a huge part of any of the gain. 
Let me clarify "not really" i ment there may be some gain but the main gain is the octane boosting effect to increase power or the cooling effects to give more consistent power 

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## ColoradoMkV (Jan 4, 2012)

You can buy a plate to put between the tb and the intake manifold. And w/m boost the octane rating to around 110 allowing you to run higher boost and advance timing without detonation.


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## polska_ts (Jun 21, 2009)

go to the hardware store and buy methyl hydrate and mix 50/50 ( or what ever concentration you want ) with distilled water. dont use washer fluid there are very few that dont have additives in them. 

as for the tb either inject after the tb or turn the tb on its side. injecting after the tb will affect the atomization of the water/meth. 

there will be very little cost saving if you install w/m any saving in fuel is spent on meth. 

if your running a stock ecu there is no point in running water meth. the point of it like previously stated is to decrease intake temp so you can increase timing. if you cant increase timing than you adding something you cant utilize.


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

polska_ts said:


> go to the hardware store and buy methyl hydrate and mix 50/50 ( or what ever concentration you want ) with distilled water. dont use washer fluid there are very few that dont have additives in them.
> 
> as for the tb either inject after the tb or turn the tb on its side. injecting after the tb will affect the atomization of the water/meth.
> 
> ...


Right. My ECU is shortly going to be GIACed. I'm aware that I'd need the 100 octane program from GIAC.


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## polska_ts (Jun 21, 2009)

you wouldn't necessarily need the 100 octane file. To get the most of the water meth the car has to be tuned for water meth. a 100 octane file will only be adapted for the increased octane and will not utilize the meth injection. 

so basically if your not going to tune the car specifically for meth your better off using straight water. the reason being is your only going to be using it to lower the intake temp and not using it as a fuel additive.

and if your running straight water you dont have to worry about damaging your tb.

If any of this doesn't make sense let me know and i can explain it better in a pm lol.


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## Bill6211789 (Dec 11, 2009)

polska_ts said:


> you wouldn't necessarily need the 100 octane file. To get the most of the water meth the car has to be tuned for water meth. a 100 octane file will only be adapted for the increased octane and will not utilize the meth injection.
> 
> so basically if your not going to tune the car specifically for meth your better off using straight water. the reason being is your only going to be using it to lower the intake temp and not using it as a fuel additive.
> 
> ...


The meth injection will be what causes the increase in octane. Thats why the 100oct tune is used. 


And i have never heard of anyone injecting straight water before. Idk how safe i feel with that

And the cheap basic blue washer fluid is very easy to find just about every where. If you're really worried just check the ingredients to make sure there is no other detergents or additives 

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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

So what about winter operation? It hit -14f at my house last night. When i left for work it was -1f. 

Even when the engine warmed up, temperature at the MAF was all of 17f. At least I assume that's where my ultragauge is reading "ambient temp" from, since it clearly isn't the outside temperature shown on the instrument cluster, and has a tendency to rise when the engine is warm but turned off.


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## polska_ts (Jun 21, 2009)

the problem with using a 100 octane file would be inconsistencies in the mixing of the w/m. in theory it would work but in actuality there's no guarantee that the octane level will infact be 100. My only concern is lets say you use 94 pump gas thats 6 points of octane that has to be made up by the meth. you will have to maintain a consistant mix of w/m to make up those 6 points and keep engine knock down. and lets say you infact run out of w/m (which has happened to me multiple times) your car may not be able to adjust timing enough to compensate for the lack of octane causing engine failure.

as for water injection here is some info: http://www.audiworld.com/tech/eng80a.shtml
its been used for a very long time and you can find more info with a quick google search.

and as for the washer fluid many of them use glycol which can cause engine problems in the long run its much much safer to mix your own with pure methanol or buy a commercial product specific for the application. I would not take the chance and put something in your car where its not supposed to be. It is true that some washer fluids are safe to use but this is only a small percentage/


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## polska_ts (Jun 21, 2009)

i would not recommend water meth in winter solely on the fact that it will be a huge headache if your lines freeze or blow. its more of a summer only/warm climate thing though i do know people that run it year round and havent had problems


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

polska_ts said:


> i would not recommend water meth in winter solely on the fact that it will be a huge headache if your lines freeze or blow. its more of a summer only/warm climate thing though i do know people that run it year round and havent had problems


50% methanol really shouldn't freeze any more than 50% ethanol would, no?


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## polska_ts (Jun 21, 2009)

basically the same stuff so they behave the same if you know ethanol wont freeze than neither will methanol.

edit: only reason i say i wouldn't run it is im in canada and it can hit minus 30 celcius at night lol


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

polska_ts said:


> the problem with using a 100 octane file would be inconsistencies in the mixing of the w/m. in theory it would work but in actuality there's no guarantee that the octane level will infact be 100. My only concern is lets say you use 94 pump gas thats 6 points of octane that has to be made up by the meth. you will have to maintain a consistant mix of w/m to make up those 6 points and keep engine knock down. and lets say you infact run out of w/m (which has happened to me multiple times) your car may not be able to adjust timing enough to compensate for the lack of octane causing engine failure.
> 
> as for water injection here is some info: http://www.audiworld.com/tech/eng80a.shtml
> its been used for a very long time and you can find more info with a quick google search.
> ...


Here at 4700ft above sea level the best we can get at a regular gas station is 91 octane. 

Thanks for the link. 

I was under the impression that even the race gas programs are capable of adjusting around variation in octane though. And also if people are saying w/m gets you to about 110 octane, i wouldn't think - even coming from 91 octane - the 100 octane program would have a tendency to detonate.


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## polska_ts (Jun 21, 2009)

im not saying it won't work im just trying to make you aware of what may possibly happen. I don't have any first hand experience with the 2.0t platform ( i have a 1.8t ) but the principles of water meth are the same on all platforms. If your research tells you to use a 100 octane file than thats what you should do. like i said earlier was just trying to make you aware of the possibilities.

edit: also take a browse through the w/m section of the forum theres good info in there and will probably answer all the questions you have.


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## xtravbx (May 21, 2005)

ericj said:


> Here at 4700ft above sea level the best we can get at a regular gas station is 91 octane.
> 
> Thanks for the link.
> 
> I was under the impression that even the race gas programs are capable of adjusting around variation in octane though. And also if people are saying w/m gets you to about 110 octane, i wouldn't think - even coming from 91 octane - the 100 octane program would have a tendency to detonate.


So buy my kit bro! =)


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## polska_ts (Jun 21, 2009)

PS: i build my kit for under 150 bucks for absolutely everything if you want i can give you a parts list.


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## tonsef (Dec 9, 2011)

polska_ts said:


> PS: i build my kit for under 150 bucks for absolutely everything if you want i can give you a parts list.


 I'm interested in your parts list. I've read up on some DIY ones, but yours would be even more helpful!


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## ColoradoMkV (Jan 4, 2012)

I'm running 31lbs of boost on 91 with water meth. The direct injection is a big plus for higher boost but I'd never get that high without w/m


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## tonsef (Dec 9, 2011)

ColoradoMkV said:


> I'm running 31lbs of boost on 91 with water meth. The direct injection is a big plus for higher boost but I'd never get that high without w/m


Is that even safe with a k03? Is that safe with any turbo? That's nearly 200% more than stock...


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## xtravbx (May 21, 2005)

tonsef said:


> Is that even safe with a k03? Is that safe with any turbo? That's nearly 200% more than stock...


It's way beyond efficiency. It's not making any more power. It can't be the k03.


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## ColoradoMkV (Jan 4, 2012)

tonsef said:


> Is that even safe with a k03? Is that safe with any turbo? That's nearly 200% more than stock...


It's not a ko4. It's a 3076 making around 500 wheel.


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## bryangb (Jun 16, 2010)

"Is that a ko3" lol


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## polska_ts (Jun 21, 2009)

basicly what i did was roughly follow this list: http://www.turbomirage.com/water-alcohol-injection-parts-list.html

The pump im using is from princess auto it was about 70$ so you guys down south could easily get one from harbor freight. depending on your application 60 psi and 1.0GPM should be fine. For those who want to run 100% methanol ( unadvisable because anything over 50/50 mix is more flamable than gas ) I would suggest getting a pump from devils own as they are decently cheap and they are made for that application. 

All the plumbing and fittings i bought at princess auto you can either use fuel line or i used pneumatic hose similar to this: http://www.princessauto.com/pal/product/8134868/Pneumatic/1/4-in.-x-100-ft-Pneumatic-Hose ( you can run any colour you want ) With the pneumatic hose i used the push style fittings and a couple brass connectors and reducers to run to the pump.

For a reservoir you can use just about anything you want. People have used their washer fluid reservoirs. I've seen people use those big camping jugs for water. I've seen mini kegs. Just about anything that holds liquid you can use. No need to spend huge money on this because you could even use an old milk jug if you really wanted to. 

For a spray nozzle just go to your local performance shop and buy one tell them how much hp you are planning on producing and they can size a nozzle for you. Or you can use this calculator to size your own: http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/nozzle-selector.php 

With controlling the meth you have 2 options run a pressure switch which is the cheapest option ( about 20 odd $ ) but then you only have an on/off function. Your other option is to run a progressive meth controller which will give you a wider range of spray time and intensities but is more expensive. The one I used is again from devils own. It was the cheapest and they all work the same.

your mounting points are all dependent of your car but make sure everything is tightly fitted so nothing falls off as your driving. Its better to install the pumps closer to the spray nozzle and farther from the reservoir because they are pulling pumps rather than push pumps.

This is an article that may be useful to some and has a lot of useful information if your thinking of installing w/m and don't know much about it: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=937176

If anyone else has questions let me know. :beer:


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## SCIROCCO SPEED (Dec 6, 2002)

polska_ts said:


> basicly what i did was roughly follow this list: http://www.turbomirage.com/water-alcohol-injection-parts-list.html
> 
> The pump im using is from princess auto it was about 70$ so you guys down south could easily get one from harbor freight. depending on your application 60 psi and 1.0GPM should be fine. For those who want to run 100% methanol ( unadvisable because anything over 50/50 mix is more flamable than gas ) I would suggest getting a pump from devils own as they are decently cheap and they are made for that application.
> 
> ...


 There's a little bit of debatable information in here.... 

I'm not sure the specs of the pump you used to build your kit, but typically a pump that would come in a kit is a pusher pump and not puller pump, are rated to at least 150 psi (better atomization) and some are adjustable 150-250 psi. This is why it is also recommended that the pump be mounted below the reservoir so it can be gravity fed. 

Also, as far as mixtures go. Optimum mixture is 50/50 methanol to water. The easiest way to do this if you don't have access to a race shop that sells methanol is the yellow bottles of "HEET". 1 bottle of heet to 1 filled bottle of distilled water. Are you really going to trust that all blue windshield washer fluids have the same mixture? some are rated at 0 degrees, some at -20 degrees, and i've seen a few other random ones. 

It's not that cut and dry that the water only takes the heat out and the methanol raises the octane. If anything, it's the opposite. If injecting right after the intercooler, the methanol will have most likely evaporated while taking out some of the heat (endothermic), while some water may remain, water doesn't ignite, therefore when mixing with fuel, increases the resistance to ignite/combust thus increasing octane. This doesn't mean that the water isn't absorbing some of the heat as well, it is. At the same time the methanol does increase the octane rating as well. Thus an optimum mixture is 50/50. 

I created my own throttle body spacer and have 2 injection points. 1 have a 100ml nozzle spraying right after the intercooler, and a 60ml nozzle spraying right after the throttle body. The closer the spray to the combustion chamber, the better the octane increase but less cooling. The further away from the combustion chamber, the better the cooling but less increase in octane benefits. A dual injection setup gives you the best of both worlds. 

Also, not all controllers are the same. Some kits operate based on boost pressure. Others will take a voltage or frequency reading from the MAF sensor. 

A great resource on this topic is USRT. 
:thumbup:


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

I'd like to make another point about windshield washer fluid. 

Since this is a product made to, you know, wash stuff, it might have detergent in it. 

Some of those detergents, like sodium dodecyl sulfate, are corrosive to aluminum. But all the MSDS will say is "ionic and/or anionic surfectants".


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## Bill6211789 (Dec 11, 2009)

ericj said:


> I'd like to make another point about windshield washer fluid.
> 
> Since this is a product made to, you know, wash stuff, it might have detergent in it.
> 
> Some of those detergents, like sodium dodecyl sulfate, are corrosive to aluminum. But all the MSDS will say is "ionic and/or anionic surfectants".


 Thats why you look and read the bottle before you buy it and use it, you go for something thats -20 preferably bc lower temp means more meth. But again you NEED to read the bottle some of the lower temp ones will have other ingredients to make them lower temp. 

Do as you please but if you want to save a few $$ you can.... This is basic stuff i learned in HS chemistry.

Do not buy anything with rain-x or bug scrubbers bc they contain detergents 

Basic blue washer fluid is water, meth, and blue dye. It has no detergents in it 

Sent from my Galaxy SIII


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

ColoradoMkV said:


> I'm running 31lbs of boost on 91 with water meth. The direct injection is a big plus for higher boost but I'd never get that high without w/m


 I'd like to see this. 
My K04 turbo has trouble spinning above 26 psi due to back-pressure disturbance, and it becomes slower in the 1/4 mile. 
I've adjusted mine too far and reached 32psi, backed it to 28psi, and then 26psi. Each time testing and running it a while before making another adjustment. Neither of those boost levels allowed the turbo to spin without causing spin-flutter. 

Also, if concerned about w/m damage to a throttle body consider this and inject the spray after the t/b; 

http://www.ngpracing.com/store/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=7003 

OK, I read further and read you have a G3076. But would still like to see the 500whp stretching its legs. You have any vids out there?


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

ericj said:


> So what about winter operation? It hit -14f at my house last night. When i left for work it was -1f.
> 
> Even when the engine warmed up, temperature at the MAF was all of 17f. At least I assume that's where my ultragauge is reading "ambient temp" from, since it clearly isn't the outside temperature shown on the instrument cluster, and has a tendency to rise when the engine is warm but turned off.


 The outside temp sensor is behind the front lower bumper, left side.


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

ROH ECHT said:


> The outside temp sensor is behind the front lower bumper, left side.


 Good to know. 

Just found it odd that i was sitting in my car after an hour of spirited driving, engine off, key on, six inches of ice in every direction, and the UltraGauge ambient temperature alarm is telling me it's over 120f out. 

Which is why i think that what is reported through OBD-II as outside temperature is really intake temperature.


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## ColoradoMkV (Jan 4, 2012)

ROH ECHT said:


> I'd like to see this.
> My K04 turbo has trouble spinning above 26 psi due to back-pressure disturbance, and it becomes slower in the 1/4 mile.
> I've adjusted mine too far and reached 32psi, backed it to 28psi, and then 26psi. Each time testing and running it a while before making another adjustment. Neither of those boost levels allowed the turbo to spin without causing spin-flutter.
> 
> ...


 No vids but if you go look at the bsh project GTI I've got almost and identical setup but I've got a fully built head and I'm tuned on Eurodyne as opposed to them running uni. The 3076 is pretty much at full power output I'm going to upgrade the manifold and go bigger turbo eventually. 

http://youtu.be/tcqmJhT3RQk

That's the only vid I have and that was on 14.7lbs on stock waste hate spring before my Eurodyne boost manager plus with w/m


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## sippyyy (Oct 15, 2012)

SCIROCCO SPEED said:


> Also, as far as mixtures go. Optimum mixture is 50/50 methanol to water.


 Just wanted to chime in my 2 cents...the optimum mixture is 50/50 but that is based on weight, not volume. 

1 gallon of distilled water=8.35lbs 
1.272 gallons of methanol=8.35lbs 

I usually mix 2.5 gallons of methanol with 2 gallons of distilled water in a 5 gallon jug and call it good.


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

sippyyy said:


> Just wanted to chime in my 2 cents...the optimum mixture is 50/50 but that is based on weight, not volume.
> 
> 1 gallon of distilled water=8.35lbs
> 1.272 gallons of methanol=8.35lbs
> ...


 would using a hydrometer be too obvious? 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ez-Red-S104...450?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae9d829d2


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## ROH ECHT (Dec 9, 2010)

ColoradoMkV said:


> No vids but if you go look at the bsh project GTI I've got almost and identical setup but I've got a fully built head and I'm tuned on Eurodyne as opposed to them running uni. The 3076 is pretty much at full power output I'm going to upgrade the manifold and go bigger turbo eventually.
> 
> http://youtu.be/tcqmJhT3RQk
> 
> That's the only vid I have and that was on 14.7lbs on stock waste hate spring before my Eurodyne boost manager plus with w/m


 Strap that cam to the wheel next time... < Giving me the shakes 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKmy6VkdT_M 

OP, I too have heard a 1:1 ratio is best. Also, there are only one or two brands of wiper fluid still containing just the two(water/meth alc.) blend w/o additives. So maybe hard finding. And, check msds for brand using to find the mixture rate. i.e. - Most brands of -20F washer fluid generally is only 30% meth so look around for stronger strengths. 

Super Tech; 

http://lakeland.edu/AboutUs/MSDS/PDFs/261/Windshield Washer Fluid (All Brands).pdf 

Krystal Kleer is 35% meth on avg.; 

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pd...d129be08e015.pdf?cm_mmc=seo|altruik|202259351 

This is likely as strong a mixture out there; 

http://canadiantire.circulaires.com.../Motomaster+Winter+Washer+Fluid.jsp?locale=en


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## arm1tage (Apr 14, 2010)

ROH ECHT said:


> I'd like to see this.
> My K04 turbo has trouble spinning above 26 psi due to back-pressure disturbance, and it becomes slower in the 1/4 mile.
> I've adjusted mine too far and reached 32psi, backed it to 28psi, and then 26psi. Each time testing and running it a while before making another adjustment. Neither of those boost levels allowed the turbo to spin without causing spin-flutter.
> 
> ...


 Well judging by his username he is in Colorado which is high altitude so that high boost is possible. 

Regarding W/M and fuel efficiency... there is no discernable difference. I have over 2 years and 30,000 miles on W/M and my avg MPGs are the same before and after (23.5mpg) 

You definitely want to inject after the throttle body... I'd recommend direct port. I used to to straight meth mixed with distilled water but now I just use -30 degree washer fluid and it works great; summer or winter I use the same settings. Jet size is very important, too small and there's little benefit, too large and you'll drown the ignition system. Iridium plugs and Okada coils would help. 

My only issue with W/M is when paired with DSG, you get extra water in between shifts and it makes the DSG fart more like a loud pop.


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## mikey3117 (Jan 4, 2008)

My experience with water/meth injection... 

I researched a few years ago all the kits and settled on Cooling Mist. There was a little chatter in the forums at that time about throttle body issues but I pushed forward. I installed the controller in my center console, the pump in my front driver side fender and the nozzle pre-throttle body. I then had the 100 octane APR file installed. The car was noticeably quicker. I ran -20deg windshield washer fluid with a bottle of Heet through my windshield washer tank. I know many don't like this setup but you have a low level indicator built right in. 

It ran perfect...for about a year. The throttle body failed as the butterfly valve no longer moved freely. Have you ever replaced the TB on this car? Lol What a nightmare! Did it myself and I'll never do it again. So I have this nice water/meth system, custom install, etc. and it's shut off all the time. I have seen a spacer with a nozzle bung post TB but I still worry that it's too close to damage TB. Plus good luck getting that thing easily installed. I do check every few months for a reasonably priced aftermarket intake manifold with water/meth bungs but I haven't seen anything yet... I've since gone K04 and if I ran water/meth now, it would be too much for the internals anyway. Oh well! I do have a sweet looking gauge in my center console... 

You can read about my install by clicking on my build page in my signature.


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

After some research, yeah, i agree that some windshield washer products are nothing but water, 30% methanol, and blue dye. Some vary up to 10% in either direction so use of a hydrometer would be warranted. 

HEET is 99% methanol 1% "proprietary additive mixture" 

But folks should still check the MSDS sheet of anything they are going to be putting into their engine, because several products do contain detergents that might be the enemy of their engine.


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## ColoradoMkV (Jan 4, 2012)

mikey3117 said:


> My experience with water/meth injection...
> 
> I researched a few years ago all the kits and settled on Cooling Mist. There was a little chatter in the forums at that time about throttle body issues but I pushed forward. I installed the controller in my center console, the pump in my front driver side fender and the nozzle pre-throttle body. I then had the 100 octane APR file installed. The car was noticeably quicker. I ran -20deg windshield washer fluid with a bottle of Heet through my windshield washer tank. I know many don't like this setup but you have a low level indicator built right in.
> 
> ...


 Us rally team makes a spacer between the intake manifold and the throttle body. 

And I've always though swapping the throttle body was a pretty easy task myself. Take the extra 15 minutes and pull the whole front clip and you have easy access to to the 4 bolts of the throttle body.


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## mikey3117 (Jan 4, 2008)

ColoradoMkV said:


> Us rally team makes a spacer between the intake manifold and the throttle body.
> 
> And I've always though swapping the throttle body was a pretty easy task myself. Take the extra 15 minutes and pull the whole front clip and you have easy access to to the 4 bolts of the throttle body.


 I've seen the throttle body spacer and it seems like a nicely made product. My worry though was some fluid making its way back to TB by gravity...


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

mikey3117 said:


> I've seen the throttle body spacer and it seems like a nicely made product. My worry though was some fluid making its way back to TB by gravity...


 Should be minimal if your injector is only active during boost, no?

Sent from my mobile thinger using the tapawhatsit


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## mikey3117 (Jan 4, 2008)

ericj said:


> Should be minimal if your injector is only active during boost, no?
> 
> Sent from my mobile thinger using the tapawhatsit


 Conventional wisdom would suggest since it's only injecting on boost, that there wouldn't be much, if any, to make it's way back to TB and that it should be safe, or at least it would take much longer to deteriorate TB. I wish there was others out there that had the spacer and could provide feedback. It would make for a nice, clean setup...


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## ericj (Dec 6, 2004)

mikey3117 said:


> Conventional wisdom would suggest since it's only injecting on boost, that there wouldn't be much, if any, to make it's way back to TB and that it should be safe, or at least it would take much longer to deteriorate TB. I wish there was others out there that had the spacer and could provide feedback. It would make for a nice, clean setup...


 Yeah. It seems that there just isn't much data to be collected on the subject yet.


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## Bill6211789 (Dec 11, 2009)

mikey3117 said:


> I've seen the throttle body spacer and it seems like a nicely made product. My worry though was some fluid making its way back to TB by gravity...


 With the volume of air going into the motor with the meth in it the odds of enough meth going agains the flow of 20psi of airflow is slim to none 

Sent from my Galaxy SIII


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## ColoradoMkV (Jan 4, 2012)

mikey3117 said:


> I've seen the throttle body spacer and it seems like a nicely made product. My worry though was some fluid making its way back to TB by gravity...


 Well if to think about most people getting 6 months to a year out of there throttle body with heavy water meth flowing through the tb then with very little to none meth going back to the tb then the tb should outlive you and the car. I VERY seriously doubt the spacer won't 100% eliminate the problem. I have no statistics but just common sense tells you that should eliminate the problem


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## xtravbx (May 21, 2005)

Maybe someone wants to buy my kit, eh?? 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...t.-Brand-new-unused-Snow-Performance-BSH-USRT


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