# No S4 Avant, no A4 Avant, now no A3 Sportback?!?! WTF Audi?



## xtemperedx (Feb 13, 2003)

I know this is a tired topic, but WTF does Audi want me to drive these days. I need a hatch. I want something sportier than a Q5. So I guess I'll be driving a 2007 S4 Avant until Audi gets a new CEO?


----------



## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

xtemperedx said:


> I know this is a tired topic, but WTF does Audi want me to drive these days. I need a hatch. I want something sportier than a Q5. So I guess I'll be driving a 2007 S4 Avant until Audi gets a new CEO?


 More likely until consumers start demanding wagons/hatches in larger volume. With a sales volume of only ~100,000 units per year in North America, Audi of America cannot afford to bring every single niche model to these shores. 

The current plan is for an A3 sedan, which should sell in *far* greater numbers than the Sportback has, plus to bring the Q3 to effectively take the place of the A3 Sportback. There is still a very small outside chance we may get the A3 Sportback, but were I a betting man I'd put it on an A3 sedan and a Q3.


----------



## Chimera (Jul 6, 2002)

Would sales of the A3 sedan take away from sales of the 4 other 4-door sedan models, though, or are these customers who would not be purchasing an audi otherwise? I'm sure the Q3 must be a success and offering a 4-door hatch A3 would be detrimental to a successful Q3 line.


----------



## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Chimera said:


> Would sales of the A3 sedan take away from sales of the 4 other 4-door sedan models, though, or are these customers who would not be purchasing an audi otherwise? I'm sure the Q3 must be a success and offering a 4-door hatch A3 would be detrimental to a successful Q3 line.


 One of the advantages of the new MQB and MLB architectures is that Audi/Volkswagen can introduce niche products far more affordably to take advantage of market preferences and smaller segments. Case in point, the A5 Sportback which essentially gives you the look of the A5/S5 but with the greater functionality of the traditional A4 sedan. Same can be said for the A7, which may draw a few sales from the A6 and A8, but likely will help drive additional sales instead of cannibalizing. 

In the case of the A3 sedan, just based on the interior design language we saw at CES, the car is clearly targeted at a different demographic than is the traditional A4. The A4 will be larger, more traditional and appeal to a different market segment than the A3. It's always possible that A3 sedan sales may steal from A4 sales, but as Steve Jobs said of the iPhone stealing sales from the iPod line: so long as we're cannibalizing ourselves, Apple doesn't care.


----------



## xtemperedx (Feb 13, 2003)

All of these are good points, but they don't help me get my surfboard to the beach without having to use a roof rack.


----------



## Dennis M (Jan 26, 2012)

I was at the Philly Auto Show this past weekend and was surprised at the number of people looking at the A3. At one point, I had to wait a little while to check it out because there were so many people around it. I disappointed a few folks when I told them there are no plans for a hatch for the revised A3. Maybe AoA will reconsider.


----------



## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Dennis M said:


> I was at the Philly Auto Show this past weekend and was surprised at the number of people looking at the A3. At one point, I had to wait a little while to check it out because there were so many people around it. I disappointed a few folks when I told them there are no plans for a hatch for the revised A3. Maybe AoA will reconsider.


There's still an outside chance that they will retain it. My gut is that if they run into production delays for the sedan they will introduce the Sportback to fill the void.


----------



## drew138 (Dec 3, 2006)

xtemperedx said:


> I know this is a tired topic, but WTF does Audi want me to drive these days. I need a hatch. I want something sportier than a Q5. So I guess I'll be driving a 2007 S4 Avant until Audi gets a new CEO?


Can't even get the A5 Sportbak :banghead:


----------



## KnockKnock (Jun 30, 2005)

The A4 Avant exists in a way through the A4 Allroad. I agree with the above posting, that the SportBack won't make it due to the Q3. They haven't said NEVER. But if the A3 sedan does 30K units/yr, and the Q3 does another 20K, then sure, maybe they can bring the SportBack.

Right now the whole A3 line (sportback) is doing less than 10K units/yr. That ain't a lot of demand. Kick and scream as much as you want, but business is business.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

KnockKnock said:


> The A4 Avant exists in a way through the A4 Allroad. I agree with the above posting, that the SportBack won't make it due to the Q3. They haven't said NEVER. But if the A3 sedan does 30K units/yr, and the Q3 does another 20K, then sure, maybe they can bring the SportBack.
> 
> Right now the whole A3 line (sportback) is doing less than 10K units/yr. That ain't a lot of demand. Kick and scream as much as you want, but business is business.


I agree, with the A3 sedan, unless it is huge hit, there is a lot of risk in bringing the sportback also. I assume that some of the potential sportback buyers will get the sedan and the potential for the sportback may be less than the current model.

They decide to bring models hear they can make money with and I could see a business case for not bringing the sportback. A4 Avants, BMW wagons, Mercedes wagons don't exactly fly out of the dealership. Some like Audi's Allroad and Subaru's Outback give them the offroad look to help them look less like wagons.


----------



## michA3er (Aug 27, 2006)

I thought one of the goals of the current gen A3 Sportback was to bring new, young buyers into the brand. So, they brought me into the brand, but are not going to offer anything that I could step up into. No A5 Sportback. No A4 Avant. No A3 Sportback. 

And the Q3 doesn't cut it. I've seen it, sat in it, studied it. First, it's not off the MQB. It's exterior is not especially attractive. And the packaging of the back row and trunk area are relatively tight.

It looks like bye bye Audi


----------



## FractureCritical (Nov 24, 2009)

dmorrow said:


> I agree, with the A3 sedan, unless it is huge hit, there is a lot of risk in bringing the sportback also. I assume that some of the potential sportback buyers will get the sedan and the potential for the sportback may be less than the current model.
> 
> They decide to bring models hear they can make money with and I could see a business case for not bringing the sportback. A4 Avants, BMW wagons, Mercedes wagons don't exactly fly out of the dealership. Some like Audi's Allroad and Subaru's Outback give them the offroad look to help them look less like wagons.


yes, there is a lot of risk in offering a sportback version of the A3, since just offering a sedan version wouldn't alienate or turn-off the thousands of loyal Audi a3 customers that liked their cars and want to replace them with a new model. I'm sure they won't get angry and go looking at Mini's or Fiats or the new Volvo V40 (like my wife who otherwise loves her A3 hatch is doing right now). 

Becuase, hey, let's face it, Americans don't like hatches, that why brands like Mini could NEVER survive selling just hatchbacks, and even if htey could, they'd just be low-end models that aren't optioned to the hilt with lucrative shiny bits. (If this doesn't drip with sarcasm in your ears, then you probably are a good fit for the Audi of America product development group.)

And that new BMW 328 wagon that doesn't sell? BMW just re-stated that they will keep bringing it over. Something about caring about a small but loyal contingent of customers who demand a wagon. The fact that it goes from 0-60 about half a tick slower that an S4, gets 36 mpg, and can be had with a proper stick shifted transmission doesn't hurt, either. 

Audi has it's headgasket shoved up it's tailpipe lately with product offerings. Good thing Audi spends all that time and money on the fancy headlights, I bet they look great in the competition's rear view mirror.


----------



## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

michA3er said:


> It looks like bye bye Audi


I don't think Audi really cares. They are doing the same thing with manual transmissions in the product range. VW is doing the same thing too. They are exchanging the smaller volume brand loyalist and enthusiast customers for higher volume customers in the fatter middle of the market where the profits are better. They are probably resigned to the fact that they are going to loose some of the former to gain more of the latter. At some point, I'll be looking for an alternative for both brands as they begin to no longer build products I'd like to own. 

You're collateral damage.


----------



## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

xtemperedx said:


> I know this is a tired topic, but WTF does Audi want me to drive these days. I need a hatch. I want something sportier than a Q5. So I guess I'll be driving a 2007 S4 Avant until Audi gets a new CEO?


They want you to drive whatever they decide build and not necessarily what you want.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

There are all kinds of models and variations they could bring and they do make decisions on what they think will be profitable, what company doesn't. 

They could bring 5 door/sedan, FWD/AWD, manual/DSG, gas/diesel, two trim levels of each, and now they have 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 = 32 different cars without bringing colors or any other stand alone options in the mix. Since most in the U.S. won't deal with ordering cars and waiting for months to get them, and dealers won't stock 32 A3's (even if all one color) which ones should they build to maximize profits? No matter what they decide some won't be happy and will buy other cars. Also, each variation adds to the production costs of all of them.


----------



## maverickar15 (Mar 7, 2011)

I will have to wait and see if BMW is still willing to offer proper 6 speed manual in the new F31 wagon. If that is the case, that car will be most likely my A3's replacement, unless Audi decides to bring the hatchback here (with manual transmission and quattro. FWD is doable but I would still prefer AWD here in CO.). Honestly new A3 hatchback would be perfect in size (~ 172 in?). I like smaller vehicles for parallel parking.


----------



## RedLineRob (Feb 8, 2009)

I'm starting to think Wagons are becoming more popular, its just the data isn't showing it yet. And the reason wagons aren't popular at the moment is because the American options to choose from when going for a wagon are Volvo Subaru, BMW, mercedes.


----------



## TWinbrook46636 (Apr 18, 2003)

KnockKnock said:


> Right now the whole A3 line (sportback) is doing less than 10K units/yr. That ain't a lot of demand. Kick and scream as much as you want, but business is business.


Perhaps the poor sales were due to the fact that it was outdated compared to the rest of the lineup. I passed on it three years ago because of this but would have bought the new one next year for sure if they hadn't killed the Sportback version.


----------



## michA3er (Aug 27, 2006)

VR6Now said:


> I don't think Audi really cares. They are doing the same thing with manual transmissions in the product range. VW is doing the same thing too. They are exchanging the smaller volume brand loyalist and enthusiast customers for higher volume customers in the fatter middle of the market where the profits are better. They are probably resigned to the fact that they are going to loose some of the former to gain more of the latter. At some point, I'll be looking for an alternative for both brands as they begin to no longer build products I'd like to own.
> 
> You're collateral damage.


There's no doubt these product decisions are mainly driven by wanting higher profits. The Q3 should be quite profitable for Audi since it is built off of an older platform and is being assembled in lower-wage Spain. 

However, if Audi hopes to achieve their 200k/year sales goal they can't afford the "collateral damage" of losing buyers they once had. To say the A3 Sportback didn't sell in high enough volumes is a little disingenuous considering they never really marketed it in the U.S., mainly because European sales pretty much consumed the full production volume. Unless Audi has increase production capacity for the new A3 I can't imagine they have allotted much more volume to the U.S. over Europe.


----------



## michA3er (Aug 27, 2006)

dmorrow said:


> There are all kinds of models and variations they could bring and they do make decisions on what they think will be profitable, what company doesn't.
> 
> They could bring 5 door/sedan, FWD/AWD, manual/DSG, gas/diesel, two trim levels of each, and now they have 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 = 32 different cars without bringing colors or any other stand alone options in the mix. Since most in the U.S. won't deal with ordering cars and waiting for months to get them, and dealers won't stock 32 A3's (even if all one color) which ones should they build to maximize profits? No matter what they decide some won't be happy and will buy other cars. Also, each variation adds to the production costs of all of them.


I would buy the general gist of your argument if it weren't for the fact that you can configure an A3 in Germany a bazillion different ways and Audi apparently still makes a decent profit. Of course, most Germans are willing to wait on an order to get exactly what they want.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

michA3er said:


> I would buy the general gist of your argument if it weren't for the fact that you can configure an A3 in Germany a bazillion different ways and Audi apparently still makes a decent profit. Of course, most Germans are willing to wait on an order to get exactly what they want.


I see close to zero chance in them ceritifiying all possible configurations and making them order only choices.

For those that want the 5 door I still think the problem is they only say they want the 5 door which seems simple until you say - is the FWD, DSG, Diesel ok? Or is it the AWD, DSG, Diesel? Or the AWD gas, DSG? Or the FWD, manual, diesel? or the.....

Once you start looking at all the combinations, if they bring the 5 door (no chance at all possible configurations), some won't be happy.


----------



## FractureCritical (Nov 24, 2009)

dmorrow said:


> I see close to zero chance in them ceritifiying all possible configurations and making them order only choices.
> 
> For those that want the 5 door I still think the problem is they only say they want the 5 door which seems simple until you say - is the FWD, DSG, Diesel ok? Or is it the AWD, DSG, Diesel? Or the AWD gas, DSG? Or the FWD, manual, diesel? or the.....
> 
> Once you start looking at all the combinations, if they bring the 5 door (no chance at all possible configurations), some won't be happy.


the debate always rounds down to how many cars of a particualr variant does Audi need to sell to be profitable or break even. You know what the answer is? the answer is no one cares, they just go shop elsewhere. See, here's how it works:

My wife has a 2006 A3 She loves it, but it's long in tooth and we've been waiting for the new A3 to come out. Audi dropped the sportback, so now she's looking at either the BMW 3 series wagon (with a stick), or that jaw-droppingly hot Mercedes A Class hatch that hit the floor in Geneva yesterday. Have you even seen that thing? It makes the new A3 look 4 years old just by sitting next to it.

Now we can resume the debate about homolgation costs to the consumer. Oh, wait... the consumer already left the showroom, nevermind.


----------



## xtemperedx (Feb 13, 2003)

I understand the argument about not being able to offer every version. I'll take a 5door quattro manual diesel, please. But for some buyers (like me) 5-door with anything >>>>> sedan with whatever. I bought a 3.2Q even though it wasn't available in manual. 

Some options are more important to offer than others, and I'd argue that a 5-door option for the A3 is about as important as anything else.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

FractureCritical said:


> the debate always rounds down to how many cars of a particualr variant does Audi need to sell to be profitable or break even. You know what the answer is? the answer is no one cares, they just go shop elsewhere. See, here's how it works:
> 
> My wife has a 2006 A3 She loves it, but it's long in tooth and we've been waiting for the new A3 to come out. Audi dropped the sportback, so now she's looking at either the BMW 3 series wagon (with a stick), or that jaw-droppingly hot Mercedes A Class hatch that hit the floor in Geneva yesterday. Have you even seen that thing? It makes the new A3 look 4 years old just by sitting next to it.
> 
> Now we can resume the debate about homolgation costs to the consumer. Oh, wait... the consumer already left the showroom, nevermind.


Producing everything for everyone isn't going to happen and I am sure they realize it will cause them to lose some customers. Right now some complain about not having the AWD diesel or the AWD gas manual and I am sure this caused them to lose some customers. Time will tell where they decide to draw the line.


----------



## Buran (Apr 21, 2000)

*Bye bye Audi...*

I looked at used A3s when I thought I'd need to replace my GTI. I thought the next A3 would be my next car some years from now when my beloved GTI does bite the dust. But Audi's decided that I, as a hatchback/wagon buyer, am "collateral damage". I can't even pay a bit more to get a nice A4 avant anymore.

I don't want a small SUV option. I want the option of a _car_.

Oh, hey, BMW has decided that it's going to deliberately support wagon buyers like me even though there aren't as many of us. Hey, look, those of us who want practicality and like the wagon/estate style like to know we're appreciated. Hey, look, once we form a lasting bond with a carmaker we're likely to return to that carmarker -- as long as they make what we want.

Hey, look, there's an AWD version, if I want.

Hey, look, I can have it delivered to me in Germany. Nice vacation. I've wanted to go there for a while now.

Hello, 328 AWD wagon.

Goodbye, Audi. Goodbye, decontented VW.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Buran said:


> I looked at used A3s when I thought I'd need to replace my GTI. I thought the next A3 would be my next car some years from now when my beloved GTI does bite the dust. But Audi's decided that I, as a hatchback/wagon buyer, am "collateral damage". I can't even pay a bit more to get a nice A4 avant anymore.
> 
> I don't want a small SUV option. I want the option of a _car_.
> 
> ...


From looking at BMW's site it looks like the 328i AWD Manual wagon starts at $40,395 (includes Destination). 

The A3 AWD starts at $31,725 (includes Destination). 

Maybe I missed something but it looks like different price points.


----------



## Buran (Apr 21, 2000)

If there is no A3 that I am willing to buy, then there's no point in comparing at all, is there? Audi won't even have a price point by then for me to look at.

I still could get a non-AWD small wagon from BMW, a vehicle that Audi is no longer willing to sell me. (Whether or not any fully-loaded -- tech packages, nav, the works) used A3s will be on the market by then is unknown. I sure couldn't find much in the way of options when I thought my black-ice crunch back in January had probably totalled my all-options 2007 GTI).


----------



## djdub (Dec 30, 2001)

This sucks so much. :-(


----------



## FractureCritical (Nov 24, 2009)

dmorrow said:


> Producing everything for everyone isn't going to happen and I am sure they realize it will cause them to lose some customers. Right now some complain about not having the AWD diesel or the AWD gas manual and I am sure this caused them to lose some customers. Time will tell where they decide to draw the line.


No, they don't realize it. They just think that people will suck it up and buy the sedan. IF Audi truly understood that thousands of otherwise happy current sportback customers were pissed that they couldn't replace their cars, don't you think that they'd make it? Audi sells that rediculous A7 in pittifully small numbers every month and they're still bringing over the S7, which will sell in the teens, if they're lucky. 

This isn't Audi being clever or realistic, it's Audi being stupid and driving customers away to Mini and BMW where such things can be had.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

FractureCritical said:


> No, they don't realize it. They just think that people will suck it up and buy the sedan. IF Audi truly understood that thousands of otherwise happy current sportback customers were pissed that they couldn't replace their cars, don't you think that they'd make it? Audi sells that rediculous A7 in pittifully small numbers every month and they're still bringing over the S7, which will sell in the teens, if they're lucky.
> 
> This isn't Audi being clever or realistic, it's Audi being stupid and driving customers away to Mini and BMW where such things can be had.


You and they may have differing opinions about how many customers they will lose but I guarantee that they understand that with fewer variations the potential market goes down. I am sure they made a decision to bring over the TDI based on projections of how many it would sell. Every business out there understands this. Your local donut shop doesn't want to make 40 different kinds of donuts (and throw away some of each), they do it to increase sales. It's crazy to think that if they don't bring the A3 5 door that all of these customers will go to the 4 door. 

If you are right, why don't they bring over the 3 door? They don't realize that some people would buy it that aren't currently buying the 5 door?

YTD the A7 (Jan. & Feb) the A7 is selling in greater numbers than the A3 and I am sure they make much more profit per car for the A7. Maybe one A7 equals the profit for three A3's?

From here http://www.quattroholic.com/2012/03/audi-reports-best-ever-february-us.html

A7 - 1227 YTD A3- 1054 YTD. Last year, same time period, A3 - 1101 so it isn't a sudden drop for the A3. Now bring over both variations and numbers would go up but by how much?


----------



## FractureCritical (Nov 24, 2009)

dmorrow said:


> If you are right, why don't they bring over the 3 door? They don't realize that some people would buy it that aren't currently buying the 5 door?
> 
> YTD the A7 (Jan. & Feb) the A7 is selling in greater numbers than the A3 and I am sure they make much more profit per car for the A7. Maybe one A7 equals the profit for three A3's?
> 
> ...


The A7 may be the single greatest flop of the brand. 1227 A7's? that's pathetic. Last time I took my car in for service, my dealer had 11 of them on the lot. that's over $1M in inventory just sitting and bleeding the dealer of interest payments. Funny how Audi never talks about that part, huh? Don't you also find it just a little funny that Audi sells only handful more A7's after spending MILLIONS in marketing the thing, (there go your profits!) while the little A3, which doesn't even get a picture on a milk carton in terms of advertizing investment, sells just as well. 

The A3 is realtively cheap to put on the lot, and the CAR TYPE is a proven seller. BMW sells tons of Minis! Let's be honest here: Audi just plain sucks at selling anything that isn't a white/black/grey SUV or sedan. When confronted with something that doesn't fit that mold, they change it to fit.


----------



## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> YTD the A7 (Jan. & Feb) the A7 is selling in greater numbers than the A3 and I am sure they make much more profit per car for the A7. Maybe one A7 equals the profit for three A3's?


Could the sales numbers of the A7s to A3s have something to do with supply. Me thinks yes. Cars.com shows 1258 A7s and only 583 A3s nationwide. Cars.com doesn't represent all U.S. inventory but I'd bet the proportions are correct. You can't sell what you don't have. Also, the new A7 better be out pacing a car that's only had minor updates in the course of six years.

My local dealer has no A3s whatsoever and quite a few A7s.


----------



## tincanman99 (Oct 19, 2000)

*No Hatch = No Sale For Me*

I am NOT interested in an A3 sedan. As it was when I bought my A3 in 2007 the sales guy pushed me to the A4. What part of I dont want a sedan do they not understand. 

My A3 is loaded and easily cost as much as an A4 but the driving experience is very different. Its a smaller car and drives like a smaller car. The A4 has become a quite large car now, its hardly a compact sedan.

Frankly I dont see the A3 sedan selling huge numbers for the simple fact that if the price is almost the same as the A4 and the A3 is smaller than the A4 who will want it? Its the same issue with the BMW 1 series. 

That being said if there is no A3 hatch I will just buy a GTI or a Mini. I have 0 interest in Audi's sedans.

If Audi wants to alienate the enthusiast segment in exchange for the broader market to make more $$ than go for it. Just remember the enthusiast market is what kept your brand alive when you were in the hole. To the general public, Audi is another Lexus.


----------



## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

Personally, I don't think there is room in the line up for both the Q3 and A3 5dr if they decided to bring more than the 2.5TFSI over. A Q3 TDI or 2.0 TSI would overlap with the A3 in a market where cute-utes are growing in sales and wagons are fading.

As the A4 moves up in price, it does make some room for another sedan which do sell better in the states.


----------



## dogbolter (Feb 28, 2010)

tincanman99 said:


> I am NOT interested in an A3 sedan. As it was when I bought my A3 in 2007 the sales guy pushed me to the A4. What part of I dont want a sedan do they not understand.
> 
> My A3 is loaded and easily cost as much as an A4 but the driving experience is very different. Its a smaller car and drives like a smaller car. The A4 has become a quite large car now, its hardly a compact sedan.
> 
> ...


Right on the money!! :thumbup:


----------



## tincanman99 (Oct 19, 2000)

VR6Now said:


> Personally, I don't think there is room in the line up for both the Q3 and A3 5dr if they decided to bring more than the 2.5TFSI over. A Q3 TDI or 2.0 TSI would overlap with the A3 in a market where cute-utes are growing in sales and wagons are fading.
> 
> As the A4 moves up in price, it does make some room for another sedan which do sell better in the states.


The problem will be that the A3 sedan wont be radically cheaper than the A4. Just like the current A3 is not radically cheaper than the current A4. Americans will look at it and say for a little more money I can buy the A4 so why bother. Look at the 1 series if you want a text book example of this. People look at the 1 and say its just a little cheaper than a 3 Series so they go buy the 3 Series. I see the same thing happening with an A3 sedan and an A4 sedan. 

The current A3 is very different than the A4. I bought mine after I saw it in person. I didnt even know they had brought it to the US. I think its a great car and is very practical with the hatch and folding back seat. This is something the A4 sedan does not have. Sure the seat folds but you cant really put stuff in it the way you can with the hatch.

Like I said, if they dont bring it in I will just buy a GTI or a Mini Cooper Countryman. Not a big deal though at the rate I keep my cars I figure its got at least 10 more years before I think about buying . I have a VW Golf thats 22 years old and is still streetable .


----------



## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

The current A3 is 5k cheaper than the A4 base price to base price. The A6 is closer by a marginal amount to the A4 (base car to base car) than the A3->A4. Thus, this would not be anything new in the Audi product line or the product lines of other auto makers.

At the end of the day, I don't think Audi is going to change their minds on this point. We are getting the sedan and there may be an outside chance at the cabrio. VW & Audi are very slow, deliberate organizations that are risk adverse. Bold just doesn't seem to be in their corporate DNA. They have spoken and the consumers will dictate if they were right. I used to view Audi as sort of a maverick but I think those days are gone.


----------



## TWinbrook46636 (Apr 18, 2003)

Sounds like Audi offered the A3 Sportback but Audi of America refused... :facepalm:


_“We decided not to take it,”_ considering wagons simply don’t connect with U.S. buyers, noted Johan de Nysschen, CEO of Audi of America. Instead, the model coming to the States is a new sedan that _“doesn’t share a single body panel with this car.”_

According to de Nysschen, it took a lot of effort to convince the corporate parent to develop the sedan, what with most other markets happy to stick with a wagon.


----------



## Chimera (Jul 6, 2002)

It's surprising all the manufacturers with a small wagon/5-door hatch offering. The Q3 has probably doomed the A3 sportback here, but part of me thinks there's no way Audi won't bring the sportback. Does Audi really need a 6th(?) sedan offering?

Other "sportback" offerings off the top of my head:

BMW
Volvo (ex-v50 and now C series?)
Saab (does Saab count?)
Subaru
Mazda
Ford
Lexus
Toyota
Kia
Hyundai


----------



## tincanman99 (Oct 19, 2000)

TWinbrook46636 said:


> Sounds like Audi offered the A3 Sportback but Audi of America refused... :facepalm:
> 
> 
> _“We decided not to take it,”_ considering wagons simply don’t connect with U.S. buyers, noted Johan de Nysschen, CEO of Audi of America. Instead, the model coming to the States is a new sedan that _“doesn’t share a single body panel with this car.”_
> ...


 I guess he didnt look around and notice the 5 trillion SUV's on the road here. Duh. Unless the A3 sedan is radically cheaper than the A4, its not going to fly here especially as most A4's are leased. 

Whatever, I will just go buy a GTI or Mini Cooper Countryman. A friend of mine has the Countryman and its a really nice car.


----------



## maverickar15 (Mar 7, 2011)

IMHO except quattro, Audi doesn't have anything unique on any other German car manufacturers if you take the whole hatch / Avant segment out of the game. 

Which means my next car is either a VW GTI or BMW F30 wagon. Too bad neither of these look as good as good as Audi hatch / Avant, but I can't buy it if Audi doesn't offer it..


----------



## michA3er (Aug 27, 2006)

VR6Now said:


> Personally, I don't think there is room in the line up for both the Q3 and A3 5dr if they decided to bring more than the 2.5TFSI over. A Q3 TDI or 2.0 TSI would overlap with the A3 in a market where cute-utes are growing in sales and wagons are fading.
> 
> As the A4 moves up in price, it does make some room for another sedan which do sell better in the states.


 Maybe, Audi thinks they need an A3 sedan in order to compete with the Buick Verano and the Q3 to go against the Encore! :laugh: 

After seeing the Q3 again in Geneva and comparing it against the new A3 it really comes across is being outdated already, especially in the interior. With Audi going all out to give the A3 their absolute latest infotainment systems the Q3 comes across is being already a half-generation behind, which it is since it is not MQB based. 

I've said it before. I really like the new A3, but I will never consider a sedan. I just don't understand Audi's logic in pissing away their current A3 owner base.


----------



## michA3er (Aug 27, 2006)

maverickar15 said:


> IMHO except quattro, Audi doesn't have anything unique on any other German car manufacturers if you take the whole hatch / Avant segment out of the game.
> 
> Which means my next car is either a VW GTI or BMW F30 wagon. Too bad neither of these look as good as good as Audi hatch / Avant, but I can't buy it if Audi doesn't offer it..


 The next Golf RS could look especially tempting to me, especially if it gets the powertrain from the TT-RS as reported in Auto Bild!


----------



## mookieblaylock (Sep 25, 2005)

michA3er said:


> The next Golf RS could look especially tempting to me, especially if it gets the powertrain from the TT-RS as reported in Auto Bild!


 maybe in germany, here audi sells 200 horse stylized grocery getters in that segment


----------



## djdub (Dec 30, 2001)

No updates to this entire forum (A3 MQB) for a while now and this is still the top thread. Hopefully someone at Audi North America is getting a little bit of a clue. I really hope they reconsider bringing the hatches.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Travis Grundke said:


> With a sales volume of only ~100,000 units per year in North America, Audi of America cannot afford to bring every single niche model to these shores.


 Sorry but I find a flaw in this. 
Audi is not "affording" anything. If the end user (the customer) wants a specific Audi why can they not get it? In the caribbean and latin america you can walk into an Audi dealership and pick any vehicle you want with any engine you want. 
I fail to see the logic in Audi of America not wanting to bring X or Y car over here. Maybe my economics are flawed but if I am in the market for an Audi (i.e. I have the $$) why would Audi try and tell me what I "should" buy vs what I "want" to buy?


----------



## LWNY (Jul 30, 2008)

Issam Abed said:


> Sorry but I find a flaw in this.
> Audi is not "affording" anything. If the end user (the customer) wants a specific Audi why can they not get it? In the caribbean and latin america you can walk into an Audi dealership and pick any vehicle you want with any engine you want.
> I fail to see the logic in Audi of America not wanting to bring X or Y car over here. Maybe my economics are flawed but if I am in the market for an Audi (i.e. I have the $$) why would Audi try and tell me what I "should" buy vs what I "want" to buy?


 The US is not a small country with lax regulations where you can drive around cars with no doors, seatbelts, instrument consoles, mirrors or seats. There is a myriad of emission tests, crash tests, in which they would have to make lots of modifications to the existing car before they can sell it here. Plus the perpetual attempt to make the U$D ever so cheaper by the F3ds (and they say Chin4 is manipulating their currency. The U$ is doing the same thing, but does not have to hold one penny in reserve currency) makes it much less profitable to export to the U$, especially for low margin models. You think with the 3uro on the verge of collapse, it would have devaluated...but apparently not..There is no Euro central bank manipulating the currency.


----------



## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Issam Abed said:


> Sorry but I find a flaw in this.
> Audi is not "affording" anything. If the end user (the customer) wants a specific Audi why can they not get it? In the caribbean and latin america you can walk into an Audi dealership and pick any vehicle you want with any engine you want.
> I fail to see the logic in Audi of America not wanting to bring X or Y car over here. Maybe my economics are flawed but if I am in the market for an Audi (i.e. I have the $$) why would Audi try and tell me what I "should" buy vs what I "want" to buy?


 Issam - 

The issue is the cost to federalize the cars for one; it's also the ability to provide sales, marketing, advertising, dealership and warranty support for another. The more product in your portfolio the higher the cost to support that product. If you're only selling a few dozen or hundred or even a few thousand per year it may not be worth it unless the margins are sufficiently large enough. 

Before you even cross that hurdle there is the problem of federalization and the costs associated with complying with US regulations for everything from specific turn signals to bumper performance, EPA compliance, crash test simulations, etc. It's very costly.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Travis Grundke said:


> Issam -
> 
> The issue is the cost to federalize the cars for one; it's also the ability to provide sales, marketing, advertising, dealership and warranty support for another. The more product in your portfolio the higher the cost to support that product. If you're only selling a few dozen or hundred or even a few thousand per year it may not be worth it unless the margins are sufficiently large enough.
> 
> Before you even cross that hurdle there is the problem of federalization and the costs associated with complying with US regulations for everything from specific turn signals to bumper performance, EPA compliance, crash test simulations, etc. It's very costly.


 I understand that very well but we are talking A3 3 door vs A3 5 door. Not exactly a huge difference there other than the #'s of doors.


----------



## LWNY (Jul 30, 2008)

Issam Abed said:


> I understand that very well but we are talking A3 3 door vs A3 5 door. Not exactly a huge difference there other than the #'s of doors.


 Not to the regulators. Different distance between pillars, sill length, all sorts of factors will cause it to have different passenger cell strength for front/side crash or rollover tests. You can't explain that to the regulators, nor can you try to hand them an envelope of cash because there are independent testing out there. 

If you think that is the case, then all VW has to do is test one MQB platformed car and pretty much import every VW transverse engined auto into the US with no further testing or redesign. 

Porsche could have said that their 959 looks similar to their 911 so it should have passed regulation?


----------



## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

LWNY said:


> Not to the regulators. Different distance between pillars, sill length, all sorts of factors will cause it to have different passenger cell strength for front/side crash or rollover tests. You can't explain that to the regulators, nor can you try to hand them an envelope of cash because there are independent testing out there.
> 
> If you think that is the case, then all VW has to do is test one MQB platformed car and pretty much import every VW transverse engined auto into the US with no further testing or redesign.
> 
> Porsche could have said that their 959 looks similar to their 911 so it should have passed regulation?


 Quoted for truth. It would be wonderful if the EU and US could put together a similar set of standards to reduce the costs involved.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

LWNY said:


> Porsche could have said that their 959 looks similar to their 911 so it should have passed regulation?


 Chalk vs cheese comparison.


----------



## kevlartoronto (Jun 10, 2012)

it's an interesting approach to marketing. while bmw attempts to create a car for every little niche, (x1,x3,x5,x6, 6 series 4 door coupe with a 4 series 4 door coupe and 2 series 4 door coupe on the way) audi seems to be doing the exact opposite by simplifying their lineup going after what they perceive as the NA mass appeal probably hoping that people wanting an a3 sportback will go for the a3 sedan. it's unfortunate because they are simply alienating a lot of enthusiasts who only want avants or hatches and in my case, only want manual transmissions. i have a manual a4 avant and am really annoyed the a4 avant has gone auto only. this means i'm buying a 3 series wagon next year. sorry audi.


----------



## OrangeA4 (Oct 31, 2000)

I find the whole thing to be really odd. I know they are introducing the Q3 To go with the Q5 and Q7 and all of these are nice and all, but to only offer an allroad as the only avant offering for NA is just  

I guess I'll be hanging on to my B7 for like forever..... 
And anyone out there with a B7 A4 or S4 Avant with a manual trans, your cars are going to be the last of the breed? going extinct ?


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

kevlartoronto said:


> it's an interesting approach to marketing. *while bmw attempts to create a car for every little niche*, (x1,x3,x5,x6, 6 series 4 door coupe with a 4 series 4 door coupe and 2 series 4 door coupe on the way) audi seems to be doing the exact opposite by simplifying their lineup going after what they perceive as the NA mass appeal probably hoping that people wanting an a3 sportback will go for the a3 sedan. it's unfortunate because they are simply alienating a lot of enthusiasts who only want avants or hatches and in my case, only want manual transmissions. i have a manual a4 avant and am really annoyed the a4 avant has gone auto only. this means i'm buying a 3 series wagon next year. sorry audi.


 I think the BMW 1 series 5 door would compete with the current A3 and they don't bring it here (or a 4 door). Seems like they have their limits also, maybe in the future things will change. When I price out a 3 series wagon, with destination it is $38,395 without changing anything including the color.


----------



## kevlartoronto (Jun 10, 2012)

the 1 series will soon be transformed as well. rumour has it they will be producing a 1 or 2 series sedan within a couple years. i'm a little baffled as to why bmw hasn't tried to bring the 5 door hatch given they are bringing/producing everything else under the sun. as for audi, they definitely needs to fill in their lineup, esp for the a4 and a6. ie, more engine options (including diesels), manual transmissions for all engine options and how about an a5 sportback? a4 avant not just an allroad. i'd love to see audi produce a mini version of the a7. (a3 hatch?)


----------



## Woj (Oct 23, 2000)

tincanman99 said:


> I am NOT interested in an A3 sedan. As it was when I bought my A3 in 2007 the sales guy pushed me to the A4. What part of I dont want a sedan do they not understand.
> 
> My A3 is loaded and easily cost as much as an A4 but the driving experience is very different. Its a smaller car and drives like a smaller car. The A4 has become a quite large car now, its hardly a compact sedan.
> 
> ...


You may want to reconsider your rant...I tried an A3 before buying an A4 B8 and felt that the new drivetrain and chassis more than made up for the size change. The A3 drove like a ten year old design. The 2011 A4 (daily driver) does a lot of things quite well. Of course, I would prefer wagon, but the 6MT my A4 sedan works well and with decent suspension mods it works well enough.
I came from 2 Minis, 3 GTIs and a 135i. An S4 Avant would be great but, as a realist, I know that that they will never import niche vehicles.
Just look at the sales of the dumbed down Jetta and Passat in this country. That sealed the fate of the new A3/S3.
Unfortunate, but true.


----------



## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Woj said:


> You may want to reconsider your rant...I tried an A3 before buying an A4 B8 and felt that the new drivetrain and chassis more than made up for the size change. The A3 drove like a ten year old design. The 2011 A4 (daily driver) does a lot of things quite well. Of course, I would prefer wagon, but the 6MT my A4 sedan works well and with decent suspension mods it works well enough.
> I came from 2 Minis, 3 GTIs and a 135i. An S4 Avant would be great but, as a realist, I know that that they will never import niche vehicles.
> Just look at the sales of the dumbed down Jetta and Passat in this country. That sealed the fate of the new A3/S3.
> Unfortunate, but true.


I have to agree with this: I had a 2012 A4 S-Line loaner for a few days a few months ago and sure, the car is larger, but the new drivetrain, suspension and overall dynamics of the car made my '06 A3 Sport feel like junk in comparison. 

I REALLY hope that the chassis dynamics are significantly improved on the MQB A3 to bring them up to par (or close to) the current A4. My biggest problem with the A3 is that it struggles mightily with road imperfections and has very poor damping. The A4 really soaked up the road nicely and while it felt larger, it never felt ponderous nor loafed around poorly.


----------



## mookieblaylock (Sep 25, 2005)

kevlartoronto said:


> the 1 series will soon be transformed as well.


there is hope. I read they are coming out with several more sport variants of the 135 one of which will be x drive, 330 hp and awd sign me up cuz you know that's not coming here from audi


----------



## djdub (Dec 30, 2001)

Where are the moderators? Someone like George or Jamie I would think knows something of this topic by now...what's the scoop boys? What is the US market plan for the A3? I would imagine we are right around the corner from release?


----------



## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

djdub said:


> Where are the moderators? Someone like George or Jamie I would think knows something of this topic by now...what's the scoop boys? What is the US market plan for the A3? I would imagine we are right around the corner from release?


Word has been very difficult to come by. Based on the bits and pieces out there, expect an autoshow reveal this autumn/early winter and US sales to start about 10-12 months from now.


----------



## dogbolter (Feb 28, 2010)

Evrything I've read in all the car mags say we are getting the sedan in various power outputs. The A3 hatch is going to be an electric or some form of hybrid only. SO all those that want a hatchback had better start looking elsewhere. Maybe the new Merc A class?


----------

