# 1.8T Camshaft data IVO/EVO ?



## Jim_Coupe (Nov 27, 2010)

Hi,




When does Intake Valve opens / close (degrees)

When does Exhaust Valve opens / close (degrees)

Take the AEB compared to ADR for example..


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Jim_Coupe said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did an overlay several months ago comparing the AEB and ADR cams from catcams website. Stock AEB is in black, ADR (NA) is in red. You can read the cam IVO & EVO events, duration and lift directly from the chart.










EDIT: I have a bunch of other comparisons, such as: AEB vs 3660, ADR vs 3660, 3651 vs 3658, 3651 vs 3660. I can post if you or others request.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

mainstayinc said:


> I did an overlay several months ago comparing the AEB and ADR cams from catcams website. Stock AEB is in black, ADR (NA) is in red. You can read the cam IVO & EVO events, duration and lift directly from the chart.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You seem like the man to ask: I have 3651's installed which I advanced 3 degrees. Picked up alot of respons and spoolup compared to having them as is from Cat Cams. Any ideas how much advance is too much?

I don't have time to do this on a dyno unfortunately.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Gulfstream said:


> You seem like the man to ask: I have 3651's installed which I advanced 3 degrees. Picked up alot of respons and spoolup compared to having them as is from Cat Cams. Any ideas how much advance is too much?
> I don't have time to do this on a dyno unfortunately.


Below is a overlay of the 3651's (black) and 3658's (red). As you can see, both share the same exhaust camshaft (left curve). However, the 3651's have a significantly smaller intake camshaft (less duration and lift).










In a turbo application, you want to minimize valve overlap due to reversion of the intake charge back into the intake tract under boost. That's why the 3658's are so slow to spoolup but have a nice top end (large overlap but late closing intake valve). The 3651's, having a smaller intake camshaft, can be advanced a little without too much valve overlap. Stock IVO for the 3651's is at 9 degrees ATDC at 1mm lift. Advancing the IVO by 3 degrees gives you an IVO of 6 degree ATDC which will give you slightly more valve overlap.

I think you are seeing better response and initial spoolup in your case because increasing valve overlap actually improves cylinder filling off boost. That is the case with an NA application, where you need some valve overlap to help scavenge the cylinder. The absolute maximum advance I would recommend is 13 degrees for the 3651's. That would give you an IVO of 4 degrees BTDC or the same as the 3658's. However, I would not recommend advancing them more than 5 degrees total (giving you an IVO of 4 degrees ATDC) since that would create too much valve overlap. 

The other problem with advancing your intake cam is that it shortens your IVC (intake valve closing) timing. The reason the 3658's make big power is that they have a late closing intake (43 degrees ABDC). That allows the cylinder to trap more air at high engine speeds. The stock 3651 IVC is at 37 degrees ABDC. Advancing the intake cam by 3 degrees shortens your IVC to 34 degrees ABDC.

Generally, I think that the exhaust cam is way too big for the 3651's and 3658's. There is no reason to have 216 degrees of exhaust duration on a turbo application. For comparison, the stock exhaust duration is 200 degrees. I opted to get the 3660's which have stock exhaust duration and slightly larger intake cam (duration and lift) as compared to the 3651's (see comparison below). 










I plan to use VVT to advance and retard the 3660's so that I can get stock spoolup but with 3658-like top end. Below is a quick overlay of the 3658's (black) and the 3660's (red) with VVT on and off. I will use catcam's adjustable sprocket and a camshaft timing wheel to dial in the timing.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Excellent stuff. :beer:

I have a cam wheel which adjust both intake and exhaust cams at the same time. i cannot advance intake alone. Not sure if that helps on the valve overlap?


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## NolanG (Jan 20, 2013)

Any help on a mild race cam for 640ish hp and to run with 30psi? 
Not interested in IE. 

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Gulfstream said:


> Excellent stuff. :beer:
> 
> I have a cam wheel which adjust both intake and exhaust cams at the same time. i cannot advance intake alone. Not sure if that helps on the valve overlap?


That does make a difference. The nice thing about cat cams is that you can get them with an adjustable sprocket on the exhaust cam as an option. That allows you to change the IVO and EVO timing events independently. So, with just a cam wheel, you cannot increase or decrease valve overlap, just timing for both. Since that's the case, then you could probably 'degree' them with more advance. But, like I said, you loss IVC time ABDC.

EDIT: Cat Cam adjustable sprocket:


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

Some good info in here 

Nice to see the profiles over laid to, its a lot easier to visualise the differences in the grinds, also interesting to see that my 3660's weren't far off the 3651's

Be nice to see info like this on the IE grinds?

Got some more info from an old thread as well that may be worth comparing


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

StaceyS3 said:


> Some good info in here
> 
> Nice to see the profiles over laid to, its a lot easier to visualise the differences in the grinds, *also interesting to see that my 3660's weren't far off the 3651's*


I think the 3660's are a better cam overall as compared to the 3651's. The 3651's loose some spoolup and mid-range due to the large exhaust cam as can be seen from the dyno comparison thread:










Whereas the 3660's have stock-like spoolup and mid-range, but have big top end (+30 HP over stock):










The 3651's make slightly more top end horsepower (+5 HP) due to the fact that the IVC event is slightly later (+2 degrees) trapping a little more air on the top end. That is why I want to use VVT with the 3660's. To delay IVC on the top end and make 3658-like power (see below) while retaining stock-like spoolup and mid-range.












StaceyS3 said:


> Be nice to see info like this on the IE grinds?
> 
> *Got some more info from an old thread as well that may be worth comparing*


I'd be interested in seeing this. Also, you were the one that turned me onto the "purple cams" from your previous postings.


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

mainstayinc said:


> I think the 3660's are a better cam overall as compared to the 3651's. The 3651's loose some spoolup and mid-range due to the large exhaust cam as can be seen from the dyno comparison thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haha i feel i may have done some good in the times off all that research and digging i used to do 

Just looking over them again at Bills Catcams grind they specced for him and it looks like hes got the same inlet as 3658 and 3652's but the exhaust is another different grind all together. So many combos out there

Just wish there was some true hard data about the IE cams.


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## Jim_Coupe (Nov 27, 2010)

Woo hoo.. nice info... im gonna read so my eye bleed... I throwing in the ADR cams this week in my 1.8T Gt2860 just to try.. I got them for free.. But maybe ill try CAT cams later..


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Jim_Coupe said:


> Woo hoo.. nice info... im gonna read so my eye bleed... I throwing in the ADR cams this week in my 1.8T Gt2860 just to try.. I got them for free.. But maybe ill try CAT cams later..


The ADR cams are the way to go! They are virtually the same as the 3660's (see below). The only difference is that the exhaust cam is slightly bigger than the 3660's (duration and lift). But get this, they open 10 degrees earlier on the exhaust stroke. That will help spool your turbo sooner because cylinder pressure is higher at 38 degrees BBDC as compared to 28 degrees when the exhaust valve opens.










Of course, you will lose 10 degrees on your powder stroke with the ADR cams, but most of your torque production occurs before 90 BBDC. Below is a graph from a spreadsheet I made a while ago that compares the effect of different connecting rod ratios on torque production. Ignoring that comparison for now, you can see where I marked two vertical lines. One at 38 degrees BBDC (ADR) and one at 28 (3660). As you can see, most of your torque curve happens well before the exhaust valve opens. In fact, when I sum up the values of the torque curves, you only lose 2% of your torque curve at EVO=38 degrees BBDC as compared to EVO=28. So, you loose 2% of your power stroke, but gain additional boost pressure due to early EVO with the ADR cams.










EDIT: I calculated a 2 psi increase in exhaust pressure at EVO=38 BBDC as compared to 28. Assuming you can translate 2 psi exhaust pressure into 1.5 psi boost pressure, that equals more than 10% increase in power. Subtract out the 2% loss on power stroke, equals a total of an 8% increase in power (10% - 2%) with ADR cams alone due to early EVO.


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## FTMFW (Jan 1, 2008)

Is it possible for us to see the info on IE's street/strip cams presented in this layout? Also, to the guy above asking for info on cams other than IE, can I ask you why you are searching for anything BUT them? (Not arguing or fight picking. I have IE cams and just want to know if there's anything that I need to keep an eye out for)


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

FTMFW said:


> *Is it possible for us to see the info on IE's street/strip cams presented in this layout? *Also, to the guy above asking for info on cams other than IE, can I ask you why you are searching for anything BUT them? (Not arguing or fight picking. I have IE cams and just want to know if there's anything that I need to keep an eye out for)


If someone can post: valve lift, centerline, and duration for the IE cams, I can get a very close estimation of the IE cams and overlay for comparison.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Found this post: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...nning-them?p=10052370&viewfull=1#post10052370

It gives lift and duration at .05 inches for the IECVA1 & IECVA2, but no centerlines. I can probably work with this information. I'll try to post something in the next few days when I have time.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I'll dyno my car with Catcams 3651 next monday. Will test zero, 3 and 5 degree advancements to see how it reacts.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Gulfstream said:


> I'll dyno my car with Catcams 3651 next monday. Will test zero, 3 and 5 degree advancements to see how it reacts.


I'd be interested to see the results.


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## FTMFW (Jan 1, 2008)

mainstayinc said:


> Found this post: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...nning-them?p=10052370&viewfull=1#post10052370
> 
> It gives lift and duration at .05 inches for the IECVA1 & IECVA2, but no centerlines. I can probably work with this information. I'll try to post something in the next few days when I have time.



Only things I've found show 270 / 274 degrees (Intake & Exhaust) and .370" / .378" Lift (Intake & Exhaust)


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

FTMFW said:


> Only things I've found show 270 / 274 degrees (Intake & Exhaust) and .370" / .378" Lift (Intake & Exhaust)


Thanks. I searched the internet for the CVA1/2 centerlines with no luck. I then called IE and talked with a tech. He said that they don't publish the centerline data but one can always measure from an actual cam. Without the centerline data, there is really no way I can compare the CVA1/2's with other cams. I can always use the centerlines from the closest Cat Cam, however, this data would be somewhat misleading.

I did mock up a CVA2 versus 3660 exhaust cam and can say that the IE cam has less lift but longer duration. That would explain why there is a slight sacrifice in spoolup as compared to OEM camshaft (see below).










However, without knowing the centerline, I have no way of knowing exactly when the exhaust cam opens and closes BTDC. So, it's best to see if someone with IE's CVA1/2 cams is willing to measure and get centerline data. We have lift and duration, but we need centerline.

The tech at IE said that they don't have any date of availability for the CVA1/2 cams due to the fact that it's very difficult to find a core supplier that meets their strict requirements. However, he did sound hopeful that they will find a supplier at some point and resume production.


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

FTMFW said:


> Is it possible for us to see the info on IE's street/strip cams presented in this layout? Also, to the guy above asking for info on cams other than IE, can I ask you why you are searching for anything BUT them? (Not arguing or fight picking. I have IE cams and just want to know if there's anything that I need to keep an eye out for)


Not sure if was me or not this was aimed at?

Don't worry no offence or anything taken 

Only thing is that what I was informed by someone that had their cams profiled said that the "advertised" figures are no where near actual figures and profile?

How true it is I don't know? Catcams data seems to be readily available where as IE's aren't? I was previously running Catcams 3660 and researched this for months, never found hard data for IE grinds though and I'm now running the IECVA1's alongside our other car.


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## FTMFW (Jan 1, 2008)

mainstayinc said:


> Thanks. I searched the internet


That's a bummer about the centerline data. I understand whey they don't release all the specs, but as soon as they sell 1 set, anyone can measure... If I had thought to while they were out of the car, I'd have been happy to measure! We're a little past that now... :laugh:



StaceyS3 said:


> Not sure if was me or not this was aimed at?
> 
> Don't worry no offence or anything taken
> 
> ...


Not originally, but this discrepancy in profile information has my curiosity peaked!! Do you remember if the advertised numbers were above or below actual, or are you still in contact with the person who told you about it?


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

FTMFW said:


> That's a bummer about the centerline data. I understand whey they don't release all the specs, but as soon as they sell 1 set, anyone can measure... If I had thought to while they were out of the car, I'd have been happy to measure! We're a little past that now... :laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> Not originally, but this discrepancy in profile information has my curiosity peaked!! Do you remember if the advertised numbers were above or below actual, or are you still in contact with the person who told you about it?


Yeah I'm in contact with them but there's no way he will release the info.

Was informed that the cams are a fair bit more aggressive than what the advertised figures are. How true again I don't know?


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## WiKKiDTT (Aug 13, 2009)

StaceyS3 said:


> Yeah I'm in contact with them but there's no way he will release the info.
> 
> Was informed that the cams are a fair bit more aggressive than what the advertised figures are. How true again I don't know?


iECVA2 on cam doctor saw

218 at .050
10 more than advertised
exhaust is 2 more
and exhaust center lines appear to be offset


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Changed the oil today and had a look at how easy it is to adjust cam timing. Have to unbolt the chargepipe to get to the crank bolt. Not enough time on the dyno to mess with that so I'll have to dyno it as is cam advanced 3 degrees.


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## FTMFW (Jan 1, 2008)

StaceyS3 said:


> Yeah I'm in contact with them but there's no way he will release the info.
> 
> Was informed that the cams are a fair bit more aggressive than what the advertised figures are. How true again I don't know?



Aw bummer, how come he's not releasing them? I'm actually not mad to know they're more aggressive than advertised! I'd prefer that over them being under-performers...


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## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

@mainstayinc

Are you able to input the following cam into the comparison sheets with stock?

Its an N/A inlet cam revision F with 8.41mm lift, 202 degrees, - 18 degrees tdc @ 1mm 

Im wondering if the different opening and less overlap will make for a better combination with a stock Amk/bam/apy/aeb exhaust cam. 

Cheers


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

Here's some info I never got round to uploading. All was on actuator pressure in the early part of the mapping session.

Actuator run no vvt



Run with the cam timing adjusted 2 degrees from 0 on the cam pulley. Can see that picked up through the mid but dropped up the top.



I ended up settling in the middle on 1 degree. We then tried a run with VVT engaged, you can see how we picked up around 30hp through the mid range 



Thought the comparisons may interest some on this thread.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

superkarl said:


> @mainstayinc
> 
> Are you able to input the following cam into the comparison sheets with stock?
> 
> ...


Looking into this now. It may take a day or two to complete.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

StaceyS3 said:


> Here's some info I never got round to uploading. All was on actuator pressure in the early part of the mapping session.Actuator run no vvtRun with the cam timing adjusted 2 degrees from 0 on the cam pulley. *Can see that picked up through the mid but dropped up the top*.I ended up settling in the middle on 1 degree. We then tried a run with VVT engaged, you can see how we picked up around 30hp through the mid range Thought the comparisons may interest some on this thread.


Thanks for posting these results. When you adjusted cam wheel, did you advance or retard timing? I assume that you advanced timing since you lost some top end but gained some mid range. Also, the VVt results are very interesting. I'm curious to see what would happen if you disengaged VVT at around 150 k/hr (to see if you gain more top end).

EDIT: You're currently running 3651's, correct?


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## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

mainstayinc said:


> superkarl said:
> 
> 
> > @mainstayinc
> ...


Thank you 
I really appreciate that.

There's been a lot of debate as to the benefits of N/A cams and one of the things that's rarely considered is which revision people have used, as there is quite a big difference. Lots of people just grabbing ADR and AGN cams without knowing the actual specs. So we have some people with good results on some setups and poor results on others. Obviously it's very much dependant on other hardware setup but it's no good adding another unknown variable


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

mainstayinc said:


> Thanks for posting these results. When you adjusted cam wheel, did you advance or retard timing? I assume that you advanced timing since you lost some top end but gained some mid range. Also, the VVt results are very interesting. I'm curious to see what would happen if you disengaged VVT at around 150 k/hr (to see if you gain more top end).
> 
> EDIT: You're currently running 3651's, correct?


I'm running the IECVA1 race cams. yes the timing was advanced as didn't want it set at a point where the peak of the cam was out of my rev range as such, we was revving higher on final runs but still was very impressed how power was still showing no signs of dropping off

The VVT results were very impressive and now looking at it i gained 40hp at one point with it. The plot above is just a comparison with it off and then again with it on, the finalised map has it disengage at the cross over point to have my cake and eat it as such :laugh:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Haven't been in here in a minute, great to see some good discussions still going on. Awesome thread! :thumbup::thumbup:


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Haven't been in here in a minute, great to see some good discussions still going on. Awesome thread! :thumbup::thumbup:


Thanks for stopping in. Nice to see you're still around.:thumbup:


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

superkarl said:


> Thank you
> I really appreciate that.
> 
> There's been a lot of debate as to the benefits of N/A cams and one of the things that's rarely considered is which revision people have used, *as there is quite a big difference.* Lots of people just grabbing ADR and AGN cams without knowing the actual specs. So we have some people with good results on some setups and poor results on others. Obviously it's very much dependant on other hardware setup but it's no good adding another unknown variable


Below I overlaid the standard ADR (N/A) intake cam with stock intake and exhaust. As you can see, there is some valve overlap (about 0.5mm lift maximum) between the stock exhaust cam and the standard ADR intake cam using the stock centerline of 107 degrees for the ADR intake cam and 110 degrees for the stock exhaust cam. 










Below I overlaid the Revision_F ADR (N/A) intake cam with stock intake and exhaust for comparison. Yes, there is *quite a big difference* between the standard ADR cam and the Revision_F cam. As you can see, even with a shorter duration of 202 degrees, the Revision_F cam has a later IVC (Intake Valve Closing) event due to the fact that the IVO (Intake Valve Open) is at 18 degrees ATDC versus 4 degrees ATDC for the standard cam. This allows the Revision_F cam trap more air at higher engine speeds compared to the standard cam (IVC = 40 degrees ABDC versus 34). Also, with an IVO of 18 degrees ATDC, there is virtually no valve overlap (about 0.1mm lift maximum) between the intake and exhaust valve. 










On the other hand, a later IVC event may trap less air during lower engine speeds due to the fact that the intake valve is open longer during the compression stroke potentially pushing some intake charge back into the intake manifold. However, this effect is not as pronounced as with Catcams_3658 which has an IVC of 43 degrees ABDC. Overall, I think the Revision_F ADR cam is an improvement over the standard ADR cam for these reasons.

I calculated the centerline of the ADR Revision_F intake cam to be 119 degrees ATDC.


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## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

mainstayinc said:


> superkarl said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you
> ...


Awesome. 
Thank you for that. 

I love the visual reference for all the cam data. Much easier to compare to each other. 

I've managed to get hold of a brand new ADR-F inlet cam from the dealers for £40. Hopefully make for a cheap and effective modification. I'm VVT equipped so will talk to my tuner about the changes and potentially keeping as much low down power as possible whilst gaining the top end, although I am more than willing to sacrifice the former for the latter


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

superkarl said:


> Awesome.
> Thank you for that.
> 
> I love the visual reference for all the cam data. Much easier to compare to each other.
> ...


:thumbup:. VVT would be a nice option with these cams.


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## Golf2 Drag (Jan 12, 2019)

Hi mainstayinc

I have a Golf 1.8t 20vt drag car that runs with a garrett gtx3582 and 2bar boost on standard AGU cams, 574hp 580nm.

I have a set of AGN cams, intake revision F (058 AC) exhaust revision D (058 K) that I would have fitted.

But I just got a set of Catcams 3652 without adjustable chain sprocket, but I think exhaust cam is a high rpm cam and I only run 8000rpm, so it's just too much for my project

Do you think a mix of cat 3652 inlet cam and AGN exhaust cam would be a good solution?

I drive with adjustable cam gear and will then mount an adjustable chain sprocket on the exhaust cam.

Do you have a good idea for the best timing of that combination


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Golf2 Drag said:


> Hi mainstayinc
> 
> I have a Golf 1.8t 20vt drag car that runs with a garrett gtx3582 and 2bar boost on standard AGU cams, 574hp 580nm.
> 
> ...


Yes. I agree. The exhaust cam on the 3652's is too large and will give you too much valve overlap. The 3652 intake cam with the AGN exhaust cam is a much better combination. Assuming you do not use VVT, then I would keep stock centerlines (112 degrees for AGN exhaust and 110 degrees for 3652 intake). If anything, you might get a few extra HP if you retard timing a few degrees with an adjustable cam gear. Below I overlaid the 3652 intake cam [BLACK] with the AGN exhaust cam [RED] on stock centerlines for visual reference. Notice how there is much less valve overlap at TDC with this combination. Valve overlap is good for a normally aspirated engine or turbo engine off boost, but not for a turbo engine on boost.


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## Golf2 Drag (Jan 12, 2019)

Hello again.
Thanks for the very quick reply.
Engine has no vvt, so it won't be a problem.
Engine is bone stock, but with H-profile rods.
Head and block are machined, so compression is probably slightly higher than stock 9.5-1
2bar boost = 574hp 580nm on the crank.
I want to try your proposal, it was also what I had in mind.
The only time the engine runs off boost is from the pit and down to the startline 
Turbo is a Garrett GTX3582r gen1 with a / r1,01 twinscroll turbine house, how much do you think it can do


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Golf2 Drag said:


> Hello again.
> Thanks for the very quick reply.
> Engine has no vvt, so it won't be a problem.
> Engine is bone stock, but with H-profile rods.
> ...


Well, according to my calculations, a 2 bar setup on stock displacement with first generation GTX3582R will max out at 534 crank HP at 7000 RPMs or 612 HP at 8000 RPMs on pump/race gas. See below. Maybe slightly better with twin-scroll turbine housing.


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## Golf2 Drag (Jan 12, 2019)

mainstayinc said:


> Well, according to my calculations, a 2 bar setup on stock displacement with first generation GTX3582R will max out at 534 crank HP at 7000 RPMs or 612 HP at 8000 RPMs on pump/race gas. See below. Maybe slightly better with twin-scroll turbine housing.



Yes, it seems that I have driven beyond the line, so it will be exciting with new cams.
I know one who runs the same turbo on a stroke 1.8t = 2.0L, schrick cams 260/268 and 2.25bar boost = 618hp 596nm
Last year I drove with a gt3071r A / r 0.86 with internal wastegate with 2bar boost = 490hp 560nm.
Pump gas = Shell Vpower octane 100


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Golf2 Drag said:


> Yes, it seems that I have driven beyond the line, so it will be exciting with new cams.
> I know one who runs the same turbo on a stroke 1.8t = 2.0L, schrick cams 260/268 and 2.25bar boost = 618hp 596nm
> Last year I drove with a gt3071r A / r 0.86 with internal wastegate with 2bar boost = 490hp 560nm.
> Pump gas = Shell Vpower octane 100


Nice.:thumbup: I'm building a *killer* MK1 street car with second generation GTX3584RS on same 1.01 A/R twin-scroll turbine housing and Haldex conversion. Check out my build thread. I hope to make big power in that setup.

-John (mainstayinc).


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## Golf2 Drag (Jan 12, 2019)

As soon as I got fitted / timed the new cams, and has been on the dyno, so I will return with the result


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## Blazius (Nov 2, 2018)

A good cheap cam upgrade is an NA intake cam ADR is the most agressive. Sadly you NA bois dont got them


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## Golf2 Drag (Jan 12, 2019)

Hey.

Then I got mounted 3652 intake cam and AGN exhaust cam.

Timing is intake 110.12 exhaust 112.25 so i will not come closer to 110/112 😏

I had been on the dyno but unfortunately we did not reach 2 bar, there was a problem with a cooler hose that split, we mounted a new hose but it also split. Then either the flex hose is bad and otherwise there is exhaust gas in the cooling water.

Engine has been checked through but found no signs of leakage, but found that exhaust valves on cylinder 2 were not quite good, so now my supertech intake / exhaust valves and eurospech springs are mounted and the AGU head gets a light porting

but there is no doubt that the cams work as intended, 550hp at 1.5 bar, with standart cams we should up to 1.8 bar to make 550hp

So now the engine has to be assembled and the car must be on dyno again in the near future 😊


With regard to high revolutions with hydraulic lifts, I once read here on the forum that high oil pressure is causing hydraulic lifts to blow up, and that it should be main bearing number 4 that should be the problem.

Does anyone know what the solution is ?


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Golf2 Drag said:


> Hey.
> 
> Then I got mounted 3652 intake cam and AGN exhaust cam.
> 
> ...


:thumbup: That is an outstanding number for 1.5 Bar boost. I'm looking forward to your dyno once engine is assembled. As far as hydraulic lifters, I am not an expert in that area. Maybe someone else can comment.


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## xeaon (Jan 5, 2014)

*mainstayinc i need your help <3*

mainstayinc can you help me out with cams aswell ? 

Im building a 2.0 stroker with GEN2 GTX3076R and NG-motorsport portet head, the plan is to use some 1.8 20v AGN cams i got for free, how should i time them and should i use adjustable timing gear to compensate for overlap ?
i have seen some other forums where they press the gear off and reset it but i wanna avoid that route if there is an easyer way

hope to hear from you


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

xeaon said:


> mainstayinc can you help me out with cams aswell ?
> 
> Im building a 2.0 stroker with GEN2 GTX3076R and NG-motorsport portet head, the plan is to use some 1.8 20v AGN cams i got for free, how should i time them and should i use adjustable timing gear to compensate for overlap ?
> i have seen some other forums where they press the gear off and reset it but i wanna avoid that route if there is an easyer way
> ...


I would install the AGN cams in stock position and then use and adjustable timing gear on the dyno to dial in the exact power band you want. No need to press off gear and reset to change centerlines as the AGN's will make good power in stock position.


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## xeaon (Jan 5, 2014)

mainstayinc said:


> I would install the AGN cams in stock position and then use and adjustable timing gear on the dyno to dial in the exact power band you want. No need to press off gear and reset to change centerlines as the AGN's will make good power in stock position.


 Okay thanks alot mainstayinc  i will let you know what i makes when its up and running


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

xeaon said:


> Okay thanks alot mainstayinc  i will let you know what i makes when its up and running


:thumbup:


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## xeaon (Jan 5, 2014)

*Almost ready to get the engine in*

Head from NG-Motorsport and manifold from DK-Turbotecnic just came in the door friday :heart:


















*RS4 Style combustion chamber*








*Exhaust port*








*Intake port with dimples*


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

I assume you're longitudinal? 

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## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

RS4 Style combustion chamber???


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## xeaon (Jan 5, 2014)

*.*

Yes my car is a A4 with BEX engine 

If u look at the combustion chamber its ported round to allow for more airflow opcorn:


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## Pisko (Jan 14, 2006)

mainstayinc said:


> I would install the AGN cams in stock position and then use and adjustable timing gear on the dyno to dial in the exact power band you want. No need to press off gear and reset to change centerlines as the AGN's will make good power in stock position.


ok, so what it the best source to get some AGN cams from these days? Dealer? 
And what is the # number for the cams to get.

Great read in this thread, some real good info:thumbup::thumbup::beer:


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## CorrieG60 (Jan 18, 2004)

AGN cam part numbers:
intake: 058109021F
exhaust: 058109022D
Source: breakers, Ebay, dealer(expensive)


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Yeah check Ebay, forums, etc 

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## AchtungRacing (Mar 3, 2003)

*N/A revision J & J cams?*

Been checking ebay and online but no luck finding N/A F & D cams.

Has anyone heard of N/A revision J & J cams?


Hi mainstayinc, would you graph the specs for the J revision cams? I'm wondering what would work best, the J revision intake and stock exhaust, both J revisions or the CatCams 3651's.

Intake cam:
Part number | Casting number | Hub | Opening time with 1mm stroke | inlet port
058 109 021 | 058 J | 8.78mm | 210 ° | 4 ° n.OT.

exhaust:
Part number | Casting number | Hub | Opening time with 1mm stroke | exhaust port
058 109 022 C | 058 J | 10.25mm | 210 ° | 8 ° v.OT.

Thanks,

Alex


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

AchtungRacing said:


> Been checking ebay and online but no luck finding N/A F & D cams.
> 
> Has anyone heard of N/A revision J & J cams?
> 
> ...


Sorry. I'm super busy at the moment. I won't be able to post on this forum until February or March earliest due to some renovation work I need to complete.


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## AchtungRacing (Mar 3, 2003)

mainstayinc said:


> Sorry. I'm super busy at the moment. I won't be able to post on this forum until February or March earliest due to some renovation work I need to complete.


Hi mainstayinc, no worries, I really appreciate you doing these cam profile overlays. Hope the renovation goes smooth.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

AchtungRacing said:


> Hi mainstayinc, no worries, I really appreciate you doing these cam profile overlays. Hope the renovation goes smooth.


:thumbup:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Beautiful set of 3660, I think the best all around cams offered OTS from cat.









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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Vegeta Gti said:


> Beautiful set of 3660, *I think the best all around cams offered OTS from cat.*
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


:thumbup:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

This thread should be kept up, and hopefully updated.

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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Vegeta Gti said:


> This thread should be kept up, and hopefully updated.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


I just re-read this entire thread. Great stuff here.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Fully agreed

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## xeaon (Jan 5, 2014)

Let try keep this thread alive 

Got my car on the dyno with both ex and in AGN cams GTX3076 0.63 at 2.3 bar

Made 548hp and 611nm before running out of lift so the plan for 2021 is to run Catcam 3665 and see if i can make closer to 600+ 🙈


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

@mainstayinc you should go over psi #58

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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Vegeta Gti said:


> @mainstayinc you should go over psi #58
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


If you are talking about post #58 then I must have missed that post. Below I printed that post:



AchtungRacing said:


> *N/A revision J & J cams?*
> 
> Been checking ebay and online but no luck finding N/A F & D cams.
> 
> ...


I would need the centerline data to get some kind of accurate graph of those cams. Does anyone have a link to information on those cams?


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Yes

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## BoostedHatchback (Jun 21, 2020)

Any info or experience with the Autotech 195 intake cam?








Wavetrac Differential for BMW M3 M4 | AutoTech


Purchase this Wavetrac Differential for BMW M3 E46 and E92 models online at AutoTech! This differential is made in the USA and features helical gears.



autotech.com


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## Nupustas (Dec 27, 2020)

Hi. Spent a lot of time searching info about 1,8T with N/A cams. There is a lot of comparision, but how about that combination: AGN inlet cam (058109021.F = AGN, APG 8,41mm, 202Â°, 18Â° n. OT ) and not so agressive exhaust cam from ADR (058109022.C = ADR, AFY, APT, ARG, AVV 10,25mm, 210Â°, 8Â° v.OT ). A little bit more overlap than with stock cams, but VVT should help at no boost area. Engine power should reach 400hp, worth or not to try this cams combination?


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## vdubguy97 (Sep 13, 2003)

BoostedHatchback said:


> Any info or experience with the Autotech 195 intake cam?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don’t have any dynos to give the community on this camshaft but I have been running one for 4 years or so and have had no issue. My logical guess is that it’s a OEM vag camshaft as where the part number would be on an oem part is grinded down.

The camshaft was easy to install with factory marks. I went from cat cams 3652 to the auto tech which is a huge difference. I prefer the auto tech cam because the drive ability is oem like.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

I have a couple buddies I have done the autotech in, and after a quick update tune, they saw very mild midrange and top end gains. Not quite like having a 3651 intake cam, but they were there. 

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## vdub18njp (Feb 26, 2009)

Vegeta Gti said:


> I have a couple buddies I have done the autotech in, and after a quick update tune, they saw very mild midrange and top end gains. Not quite like having a 3651 intake cam, but they were there.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


What cat cams would you recommend for my G30 set up? Al ordered the G30-770 but Garrett sent a G30-900 so I don't want to sacrifice more bottom end than I already will. (Al thinks my lag will be similar to what I had with his GT3071r) Should have updates on my thread this weekend or sooner.
















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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Why do you want such a large turbo(laggy and powerband so far to the right)??

First thing I would do is get the correct turbo for my intended usage. 

I'd also get rid of that WG reroute, it causes turbulence and adds back-pressure. If you don't want an external dump, you can blend that dump more smoothly into the DP, versus hammering those hot high velocity gases into a bend. 

Other wise, as stated in this thread and others, if you have VVT that makes a big difference. I would run 3660 CATs and, use the VVT for a bump in the top end and spool,etc.


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## vdub18njp (Feb 26, 2009)

Vegeta Gti said:


> Why do you want such a large turbo(laggy and powerband so far to the right)??
> 
> First thing I would do is get the correct turbo for my intended usage.
> 
> ...


I opted for the G30-770 but Garrett ****ed up when they sent it to Al @ PPT. 

Shop has been waiting for so long.. I agree but I don't have the luxury of time. 

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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Buy once, cry once is a great motto


You're not going to see any real boost pressure until roughly 5000rpm. Meaning, if you rev to 8k, your powerband will go by faster than you can shift unless you're gong to drag race the car only. 3k of positive boosting power can go by very very quickly.

Food for thought. Just be very very sure you want that.

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## vdub18njp (Feb 26, 2009)

Vegeta Gti said:


> Buy once, cry once is a great motto
> 
> 
> You're not going to see any real boost pressure until roughly 5000rpm. Meaning, if you rev to 8k, your powerband will go by faster than you can shift unless you're gong to drag race the car only. 3k of positive boosting power can go by very very quickly.
> ...


Totally agree.. I was just rushed to make a decision as this project has taken many more months than anticipated.

I'm working with Al to get something that make much more drivable sense. Going to switch out for a G30-660 which should be much more appropriate. 

Appreciate the guidance!

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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

🍺


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## vdubguy97 (Sep 13, 2003)

@mainstayinc can you put these cams in a graph vs OEM AWP cams. Could you provide your opinion on these cams with a .63ar GT3076r on stock 1.8t bore and stroke with 8.5:1 compression. Thanks in advanced







.


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

vdubguy97 said:


> @mainstayinc can you put these cams in a graph vs OEM AWP cams. Could you provide your opinion on these cams with a .63ar GT3076r on stock 1.8t bore and stroke with 8.5:1 compression. Thanks in advanced
> View attachment 67660
> .


Let me check into that and get back to you.

-John (mainstayinc)


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

mainstayinc said:


> Below is a overlay of the 3651's (black) and 3658's (red). As you can see, both share the same exhaust camshaft (left curve). However, the 3651's have a significantly smaller intake camshaft (less duration and lift).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It'll be similar to this in many ways. The 3651 vs 3660. 3658 is a great drag can for a very large turbo

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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

mainstayinc said:


> I think the 3660's are a better cam overall as compared to the 3651's. The 3651's loose some spoolup and mid-range due to the large exhaust cam as can be seen from the dyno comparison thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again

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## vdubguy97 (Sep 13, 2003)

mainstayinc said:


> Let me check into that and get back to you.
> 
> -John (mainstayinc)


Thanks John!


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Bump. Before people start regretting buying the race ie cams all over again. 

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## Nupustas (Dec 27, 2020)

Yesterday installed AG inlet cam (058109021.K = ADR, APT, ARG, AVV 8,41mm, 202°, 16° n.OT) in my new engine (china GT28 copy, 550cc, S3 pistons) and car runs like crap in no-boost area. 3k-max boost 0,3bar, 3,5k-0,5bar, 4,5k-1bar. It looks like car with heavy trailer. But above 5k hits realy hard till redline(with BIG turbo and 8-9k rpm limit would be interesting to try). Its ME7,5 with VVT, tried with on, and off - maybe with on a little better. I have another project with identical setup(same turbo, same injecotrs...but with stock cams) and everything works better(spools much faster, 3,5k and have 1,5bar easily). Maybe assembly mistake, or throw away NA cam and instal stock?


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Is there a software difference between the two?

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## Nupustas (Dec 27, 2020)

Both cars runs on AMK J sowtfare. Almost all main maps identitical (fueling, timing..), but in new poject with NA cams lowered KFLDIMX to protect new-asembled engine from max boost (both wastegates regulated identical, so it should reach 0,9-1bar anyway at same rpm range) and have changes witg gearbox ratio calculation(due to cruise control). Cam gear and belt timing installed 100perc. correct. Ordered new gasket set for cam changing to stock, till i get it, maybe should try rewrite another car software without any changes and see what is happening... And one more idea, maybe toothed wheel position on turbo/na engines is different...

Update:
Sofware from another car doesnt change anything. Also tried advance all timing maps by 4 degrees (NA cam's centre 4 degrees later than stock cam (117 and 113 degrees), but no result.


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## Al3xG (Nov 26, 2019)

Just found that PiperCams make an interesting cam set for the 1.8T with the following data:

Duration Inl264°Duration Exh268°Valve Lift Inl.350"
8.89mmValve Lift Exh.433"
11.00mmTiming Inl24 - 60Timing Exh64 - 24Full Lift Inl108°Full Lift Exh110°Lift AT TDC Inl.045"
1.13mmLift AT TDC Exh.064"
1.62mm

Wonder how those compare with CatCams 3658? Maybe @mainstayinc can chip in? Thanks


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

You can literally take those copied data points and organize them correctly vs the data that's available from car for the 3658. It'll be fairly clear.


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## Golf2 Drag (Jan 12, 2019)

Hi mainstayinc.

A bit has happened with the project since last time, and is now at 600+ hp with 3652 inlet and AGN exhaust cams.

Unfortunately, there is a damaged valve and the cylinder head has been removed.
so now Supertech valves and springs come in the cylinder head, and run with e85 fuel.

I've been thinking about getting the 3652 exhaust cam grinded to 3658 exhaust cam, but I'm been lucky and bought a set of Schrick cams for $ 100

Schrick 1521 intake
252/110 degrees advertised duration
8.21mm valve lift
Part 0301E1521-00

Schrick 1601 exhaust
260/114 degrees advertised duration
10.41mm valve lift
Part # 0301A1601-00

The idea was then to replace the AGN cam with the Schrick exhaust cam.

Schrick writes timing should be 114 degrees, but should it also be that along with catcam 3652 intake cam?

Do you have a good idea for it


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## Golf2 Drag (Jan 12, 2019)




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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Golf2 Drag said:


> Hi mainstayinc.
> 
> A bit has happened with the project since last time, and is now at 600+ hp with 3652 inlet and AGN exhaust cams.
> 
> ...


This was with stock everything in the head? How much would you rev it?


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## Golf2 Drag (Jan 12, 2019)

HidRo said:


> This was with stock everything in the head? How much would you rev it?


Hi

No it was with Supertech valves and a set of single Eurospec springs, rpm limit was 8300.

Now there are Supertech single groove valves and Supertech double springs in the cylinder head, and the rpm limit has been reduced to 8100.


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## vr6 3.0 (Apr 19, 2008)

TTT, because this is a great thread.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Very good thread. I should repost a bunch of the pictures, I think I have some updated stuff in here, so they're not on photobucket and can be seen. 

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