# Getting all configured!



## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Got Megasquirt installed. MAP sensor is a bit out of wack, showing 56 at idle @ 900 RPM. Tried to figure out how to calibrate and I have no idea what those numbers are referring to.

Then there is Fuel settings: 










Look correct for a 2.0 8v engine?

And Spark settings:










Any suggestions?

Have a Ford EDIS coil pack. Running off wasted spark. Coil is fired from MS and is using the 60-2 crank sensor and the CPS sensor for sequential injection.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

56 is good for idle. Depends upon the cam installed and some other factors. 

If you are using sequential injection, shouldn't there be 4 injector squirts per cycle, and not alternating. Do you have the injectors wired on individual drivers or in banks? I would think you would need them on individual drivers to have sequential injection.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Each injector is running individually. I assumed the squirts per cycle was per injector. I know if I set it to 1 or 3 tuner studio yells at me, 4 reduces the pulse time from 15.1ms to 7.55ms. Haven't tried to start it yet, so I'm not quite sure.

Cam currently is Autotech 270. It has been ported, head decked, has 4-2-1 header and 2.25 exhaust, Cold air intake and supertech high flow valves. I would have thought it would be running around 75 at idle, but now that I think about it, 56 makes a bit more sense due to high flow.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

I'm not familiar with MS3 at all. Can you set the "staging" to sequential? What version of TS do you have?


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

TS is 1.14.1

Injector staging has options of: RPM, MAP, TPS, Duty, and Table. Default it is set to off.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

injector staging on your fist screen shot, currently set to "alternating"...


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Ahh. Options are simultaneous or alternating.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

SirSpectre said:


> Got Megasquirt installed. MAP sensor is a bit out of wack, showing 56 at idle @ 900 RPM. Tried to figure out how to calibrate and I have no idea what those numbers are referring to.
> 
> Then there is Fuel settings:
> 
> ...


Ok several things not quite right here.

1: You want to set your squirts to 1 simultaneous. Sequential does not use this but you need it set there to get accurate injector duty cycle values.

2: Multiple issues with your spark settings. Set trigger angle offset to 0 you do not want to use this with missing tooth wheels. You need to set "use cam signal" to on for sequential. Use rising edge capture. Use Dual Wheel with missing tooth. Tooth 1 angle should be 78 deg for a stock VW 60-2 crank wheel but BE SURE TO VERIFY with a timing light. Since you are wasted spark divide the reading you get with a timing light by 2. In other words with timing set at a fixed 10 deg the timing light should read 20 deg.

I am actually suprised you aren't getting a config error. Usually MS3 gets pissy when you turn on sequential with single wheel missing tooth.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Thank Prof! Once I get a few more connections soldered in (damn iron died on me  ) its time to start it up!


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Spark map load scale. By default it says 30 - 400. It says IGNLOAD% but that is supposed to be KPa correct? If thats the case I am good to go. Otherwise what scale should be done?


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Assuming its Kpa, I matched the scale from the fuel map. Here is my prelim spark map just to get started and at least running:


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

It is and you'll be fine


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Ok, I have everything installed except for the RPM sensor and Cam sensor
Which wires go where for the RPM sensor and cam sensor?
Also it appears the IAT and CTS are a bit off.
IAT reads 81 F when its 60 outside and CTS reads 165 F when the coolant should be like 70. Could I have the CTS wired wrong?


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Ugh. Then for some reason the Ignition relay isnt working right. Only power on crank but not in on. Put a toggle switch in the mean time 

Then the fuel pump relay, found the relay in the car but not a clue how to find which pin it goes to. Tough install....


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Ok, Maybe I have no idea the sensor I'm using really is the VR input. here is a pic:










That the correct sensor?

Also just face palmed myself as i wired the injectors int he wrong firing order :facepalm: Changing the order in Tuner studio will fix that correct? Kind of a pain to have to rewire the injectors again.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

One of those is the VR and the other is the knock sensor, I do believe. Follow the wire to the end to verify.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Thats what I thought The one that I pulled off does not go to knock. Now any idea which wire is VR signal output to MS and which is tach and what is the other?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

SirSpectre said:


> Thats what I thought The one that I pulled off does not go to knock.


Where does it go?




SirSpectre said:


> Now any idea which wire is VR signal output to MS and which is tach and what is the other?


The VR signal IS the tach signal to the ECU. You'll have to get your "tach signal" from MS or off the coil, I don't know what spark you are running. As far as the pin-out of the connector, look in a Bently Manual, or I have also seen it posted some where in this forum. The 3 wires are for power, signal and ground. I do not know which is which.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Well that's the problem, I'm currently sitting outside and don't have my Bentley with me. Was hoping that someone that did have it readily available could let me know which wires I needed to run to where


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

SirSpectre said:


> Well that's the problem, I'm currently sitting outside and don't have my Bentley with me. Was hoping that someone that did have it readily available could let me know which wires I needed to run to where


The CKP on an ABA is a 3 wire sheilded VR Sensor. Red is VR+ green is VR- and black is sheild and should be grounded on the block. You also _may_ need a 10K 1/4 watt resistor on VR+ to prevent sync loss at higher rpms. I cannot give you a definative answer with MS3 because all of the MS3 cars I have done ( all Corrados, all missing tooth/vr ckp) were upgrades from MS1 and MS2 and already had a resistor installed.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

SirSpectre said:


> Ok, I have everything installed except for the RPM sensor and Cam sensor
> Which wires go where for the RPM sensor and cam sensor?
> Also it appears the IAT and CTS are a bit off.
> IAT reads 81 F when its 60 outside and CTS reads 165 F when the coolant should be like 70. Could I have the CTS wired wrong?


No you probably have the resistance curve still default (GM sensors) you will need to recalibrate your CTS and IAT for VW/ Bosch sensors. You can use the Bosch (Saab) settings already in TS or go custom and use the Bently to get your 3 point curve. Regardless the Bias resistor value will be 2490 ohms.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

I tried the Bentley numbers and the default Bosch numbers and its still giving a bad reading. Flipped the wires and no change. Pulled the sensor and measured Ohms in boiling water and ice water, it was reading .1 ohms in each.  I may have a bad sensor, which is a shame because it was working fine the day prior.

In other news RPM signal is solid :beer:


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

SirSpectre said:


> I tried the Bentley numbers and the default Bosch numbers and its still giving a bad reading. Flipped the wires and no change. Pulled the sensor and measured Ohms in boiling water and ice water, it was reading .1 ohms in each.  I may have a bad sensor, which is a shame because it was working fine the day prior.
> 
> In other news RPM signal is solid :beer:


On the bright side VW CLT and IAT are generally pretty inexpensive. Glad to hear you have rpm though! :thumbup:


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Picked up a new sensor. Working well now :thumbup:

Only thing left is to figure out the fuel pump. That fuse box is tough to work with. I am very tempted to just hard power the fuel pump the same fuse box as the rest of the system is on. Would there be an issues encountered with doing that and having the pump run full time when powered on?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

SirSpectre said:


> Picked up a new sensor. Working well now :thumbup:
> 
> Only thing left is to figure out the fuel pump. That fuse box is tough to work with. I am very tempted to just hard power the fuel pump the same fuse box as the rest of the system is on. Would there be an issues encountered with doing that and having the pump run full time when powered on?


Just grab your Bently, find the coil ground for the fuel pump relay, cut it and splice the MS fuel pump trigger wire in it's place. Don't do the full time key on power.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Prof315 said:


> Just grab your Bently, find the coil ground for the fuel pump relay, cut it and splice the MS fuel pump trigger wire in it's place. Don't do the full time key on power.


Thats what I'm trying to find. So many wires in the fuse box that i cant figure out which go to what relay. I spent like 2 hours tracing and testing wires and came up with nothing.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Guess I spoke too soon. RPM signal is nothing. Now I am even more confused. Pin 2 on MS3 board is a Shielding cable that wraps around the IGN wire. Do i Put that shield cable to VR- ? and the actual wire inside to VR+?


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

:facepalm: Sensor was disconnected. 

10 minutes from now its time for first start :thumbup:


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Survey says!!!....... No spark on either coils 

Tooth logger is showing missing tooth at the right place. Trigger logger just shows 2 lines. Everything else, except that darn coolant sensor again. Makes me wonder on the coolant sensor, should i be using the 2 wire or the 4 wire sensor? And if 4, i see pins 3 and 4 should work but neither says which one is signal and ground.

So first issues first; causes of no spark, besides RPM sensor?


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Coolant solved. again. still no spark


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

SirSpectre said:


> Coolant solved. again. still no spark


How are you triggering the coilpack? BIP373s?


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Yeah. Need_a_vr6 installed 2 of them.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

So quick synopsis..... coolant temp was wonky, it's better. No rpm signal, fixed. You can actually see cranking rpms on TunerStudio? 'Cause no rpm on TS and it won't run. 

If you have rpms and no spark I would double check the wiring, make sure you've got the right wires coming out of MS and also make sure the coil is wired correctly.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Yup. RPM is reading 250 ish at crank, and in tooth logger the scale looks off but its readable. All teeth appear to be showing up and the missing tooth as well. Everything else is working perfectly now except for spark. Just double checked wiring and the signal wiring is fine, I am wondering now if the coil just isn't getting enough power. I won't have time to check it again until Thursday, but I think I'll try running power to the coil right from the battery and see what happens. There is power running to the coil, according to the old multimeter, but nothing coming out for spark. Oh man I hope that coil isnt bad, its brand-spankin-new.

Edit: hmmm...if the coil isnt mounted correctly could it be grounding out?


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

might just try quickly replacing the coil with an LED test light and see if you get flickering there during crank. or if its always on solid, etc

also check for 12v at the coil + during cranking :beer:


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

attach LED to the signal wire to ground, or power to ground?


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

So I was researching the issue a bit on the coil pack end to make sure the wires going to the coil are right, Signal wise its correct, power wise im not sure. Multmeter shows power from the wire to ground, but this diagram:










http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/edis4ew.gif

is showing that from pin 2 on the coil pack will have 2 wires going to pin 2: one to power, and one to ground, am I reading this correctly?

Also want to confirm my wiring for the Sensor is correct. The silver IGN wire on the MS harness has a white core wire and a shield around. I have the shield soldered to VR- and the White wire to VR+ then black to hard ground.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

SirSpectre said:


> attach LED to the signal wire to ground, or power to ground?


remove the coil from the harness completely and attached the - side of the LED to the coil trigger, and the + to the coil power.

then see if it blinks :beer:


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Ok, so running to radioshack to get an LED, (all of mine are being used atm or are rusty [darn outside]) Should i pick up that 25 microfarad capacitor while I'm there for the coil ground? Or is that not needed?


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Well I got it wired in correctly and now have spark! But now it seems the RPM sensor is getting desync'd. Here is an image of the composite log capture










Anything look odd?

I also have the .csv file. If you want it PM me your email


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Two things, well 3.... have you tried adusting the pots on the mainboard? Can you do a tooth log as well? And if adjusting the pots doen't help you might want to post this with the logs and your msq on the MS forums. James (jsmcortina) is the best person at reading composite and tooth logs around.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

What do you mean by adjusting the pots?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

The "potentiometers" on the board for the VR sensor.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

ps2375 said:


> The "potentiometers" on the board for the VR sensor.


the small blue rectangles thats stick off the board surface, near the middle.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Got it. Also, I grounded the coil to the block. Would that cause any issues with the VR sensor? Seems to be the only logical reason why I had great RPM signal before I had spark, and now that I do its not so good.

Ill get a tooth log today and post it.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Ok, here was the preliminary tooth log before messing with the Pots:










Here is Composite and tooth log after doing exactly what you said. Seems to have made it worse:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*

I would go back to the original setting on the pots, it looks way better.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

So I set it back but it doesn't look much better. That said I am not 100% sure what the previous setting was. I was thinking, Could I have the sensor wired backwards?

I want to make sure its right. I have black to hard ground on the block, VR- to the pin 2 in MS, and VR+ to the other pin, cant think off hand. Pin 2 was a wire mesh shield around the wire i have set to VR+ and I have that soldered to to VR-. Correct?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

That sounds backward but on ms3 you can just invert it in software using the ignition input edge setting. It looks like there is one big spike for the missing tooth but some variation inbetween because the motor is slowing while cranking. Fully ccw is where I keep all vr pots it works almost all the time like that.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

I have a post on ms3 extra forums now too. Its a race to see who wins! Prof doesnt count because he is on both 

It was inverted. I have it set to rising edge now and this is the result after trying to start:











looks a ton better. Still wont start though. Stays synched until the car wants to start the desynchs and dies. I am so close i can taste it. It has to be just TS settings now.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

You have a tooth log of right before it dies? Could it be hydrolocking? Hard to crank right after?


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

I doubt its hydrolocking. It will turn over just fine afterward. I had it running for a brief moment, but the car was still cranking. Logger showed it was stable. As soon as the key is let go it died. Crank again and it will sputter some, but will never quite get there. I am wondering a few things:

1st: the coil sparks ABAB correct? not AABB?
2nd) Right now the firing order for injectors is set to ADBC from right to left For wiring. As the firing order is 1342. I'm assuming MS fires injector A first, then B, then C, then D. The firing order in general settings is a little unclear


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

SirSpectre said:


> I doubt its hydrolocking. It will turn over just fine afterward. I had it running for a brief moment, but the car was still cranking. Logger showed it was stable. As soon as the key is let go it died. Crank again and it will sputter some, but will never quite get there. I am wondering a few things:
> 
> 1st: the coil sparks ABAB correct? not AABB?
> 2nd) Right now the firing order for injectors is set to ADBC from right to left For wiring. As the firing order is 1342. I'm assuming MS fires injector A first, then B, then C, then D. The firing order in general settings is a little unclear


1: Yes and you would run coil A to 1 and 4 and coil B to 2 and 3

2: Yes in sequential mode MS fires the 3X injector drivers A,B,C,D. And if you ever go to sequential ignition, the 3X ignition drivers work the same way.

The ADBC firing order would be right to left only if you were sitting in the car. Standing in front of the car and looking at the engine it would be ADBC from left to right.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Temporary add 20-50% to reqfuel, better or worse? That will give you some direction, if it does start note the pulsewidth, that should be your goal w the right reqfuel and varied crank, afterstart, warmup values.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

So without a dizzy, how is the timing adjusted? Is that the trigger wizard? That seems a bit off as right now the cam sensor pulse is a few degrees after the missing tooth.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

SirSpectre said:


> So without a dizzy, how is the timing adjusted? Is that the trigger wizard? That seems a bit off as right now the cam sensor pulse is a few degrees after the missing tooth.


Turn on the fixed timing in Ignition settings. Default is 10 degrees, that's fine. Hook a timing light up and read the advance. Because you are running wasted spark (coil fires every 360 on each cylinder) you should read 20 degrees on the timing light. If it is off, adjust your #1 tooth angle till you read 20 degrees. Once you are set there, turn off fixed timing, start the engine and check timing at sevral rpm points make sure it matches you timing table ( don't forget to divide what the timing light says by 2).

Cam pulse has nothing to do with ignition timing on a waste spark set up. However, you need to have the pulse BEFORE the missing tooth. Just rotate the dizzy till it's back 20 or more degrees before.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

I have a "dumb" timing light. All it does is strobe. Should I make some markings with a paint pen on the cam gear and on the TDC markings on the plastic "gauge" behind it?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

I'd wouldn't worry about trying to strobe the cam angle. Just use the tooth logger or composite logger and get the cam pulse before your missing teeth. As far as ignition timing goes, with a "dumb" timing light you at least need a 20* BTC mark to check things properly. Timing tape on the harmonic balancer/crank pulley an a TDC mark on the timing cover would be better but as long as you can read 20* BTC on the timing cover things will be okay.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

The TDC mark on the plastic piece behind the cam gear. Could i mark TDC on the gear and use that line to time to?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Cam runs at half speed compared to the crank. Your best measurements will be at crank sprocket or the flywheel.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

All righty, crank pulley timing, adjust CPS for fuel, add resistor and try again. Whew, I hope this works. *crosses fingers* Now It just needs to stop raining!


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Do them one at a time. Also like Paul said, try bumping your req fuel significantly to see if you will stay running.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Req fuel is currently set to 15.1, think setting to 20 is a good start


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Wouldn't it be easier to just set the advance under fixed advanced to 0 then make sure the timing is set to TDC right on?


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Well.


SHE STARTED!!!!!!! And stayed running! Idles at 2300 RPM right now though. 

Next step: Tuning and getting the Tach in the dash to work!


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Moderately tuned. Running well accross all RPMs. Idle still a bit jumpy though. And my tach isnt working. Output set to MS3x tacho out, and hooked to the green wire. Haven't bothered trying a different one yet, its dark out now.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

SirSpectre said:


> Well.
> 
> 
> SHE STARTED!!!!!!! And stayed running! Idles at 2300 RPM right now though.
> ...


GOOD DEAL! :thumbup:


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

So I tinkered with the Tach some, and I cant get it to work. Tried the green and the red wire for signal and got nothing. I have to assume that the wiring is wrong, and I need to tap signal somewhere else. Where would that be? Should I just take out the cluster and tie in there?

In other news, Went out for a while last night and got some nice tuning in. Even with a moderate spark map I have currently, when I step on it she goes. Huge difference. Took me by surprise a few times in the upper end.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

awesome work :thumbup:


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Any ideas on how to improve idle stability? Ive messed with req fuel, Idle VE map, actual VE map and some ignition timing.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

SirSpectre said:


> Any ideas on how to improve idle stability? Ive messed with req fuel, Idle VE map, actual VE map and some ignition timing.


See my reply on the MS/Extra forums.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

If you are using a tach that used to go to coil - you will need a modified circuit. Easiest thing to do is grab a relay and splice into 85/86 and run one side to 12v the other inti the output wire. See if that works, and if it does let me know and I will post about how ti keep it from buzzing 

Idle can be tricky dont worry about ve much till you have the idle advance setting working.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Hahaha. I have now idea where it went from. Its the stock mk3 cluster tach. I figure if i cant get it working I'll get an after market one. All the cool honda kids are doing it right? Right? No? Yeah I'd rather get the cluster working as well.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

SirSpectre said:


> Hahaha. I have now idea where it went from. Its the stock mk3 cluster tach. I figure if i cant get it working I'll get an after market one. All the cool honda kids are doing it right? Right? No? Yeah I'd rather get the cluster working as well.


You can drive a MK3 cluster directly with one of the IAC pins. I'll hit the schematics at work tomorrow and tell you where to find the tach wire for the cluster.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*

MK3 works with no mods, check what cluster/fuseblock pin T68/10 goes to, that's the wire.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Having a hard time dialing the correct AFR. Tunerstudio keeps jumping around, Could I need to recalibarate my wideband? Or is that just how it is?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*

You mean jumping around using the VEAnalyzer or just jumping around in general? Lots of 'real lean' spikes are usually misfires, check ignition system, plug gap, make sure you're not real lean or rich, etc.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Plug gap. I'm sure thats it. I took one out and it was bad. Sounds like the cause. Seeing its a completely different Ignition system now, should I still be using the stock gap or make it a little wider due to the hotter coil, and it being a Ford coil?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*

I would leave it stock for now, sort the rest, THEN go playing with it.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Roger that. 2 connections were a little loose on the plugs gaps are perfect. Damn those ford wires are tight. Cant wait for my custom ones to come. Also found out my intake manifold was loose :facepalm: Got all that sorted and time for a test drive.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Don't you LUV a new build? All sorts of little things to keep you busy!


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

oh dear Lord is it much better now. AFR still has a few jumps, but its far more smooth. :thumbup:


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

And after finally getting to where I want it, and everything back in order, I reached 38mpg ! :what: Thats a gain of 6 mpg. 

Time to end it. 

Big thanks to everyone that helped out! 

Prof: you rock my socks off 
Paul: same, and big thanks for getting my board done!


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Glad things are working well for you. MS3/3X really is the cat's a$$ :laugh:.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

True story!


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

^^^X3^^^


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