# FWD vs. 4Motion; who's driven both?



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

I'm interested in an Arteon SEL R-Line. I've driven the a 4Motion, but have not driven a FWD model. Anyone have perspective on both? I know the rear wheels aren't engaged until the front slip, and 4mo can help with handling, but I'm wondering how big a difference it makes. FWIW, I currently daily a MK7 GTI, and I have to believe the FWD Artie drives similar.


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## beaumisbro (Oct 2, 2009)

iirc, the new haldex does send a small % of torque to the rear (10%??). I have a B6 (FWD )Wagon, a 4Motion Arteon and drove a friend's Mk7 GTI.
Overall, I'd go with the 4motion.


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## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

Yeah, I should add: I *want* the 4mo, but if it's not adding substantially more to the driving experience, I could forego it.


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## AlexSky (Nov 2, 2019)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> Yeah, I should add: I *want* the 4mo, but if it's not adding substantially more to the driving experience, I could forego it.


I haven't driven the FWD as it is not an option in Canada... 
I would, maybe, think about waiting for the 2020 Passat R-Line (Which look pretty damn good) is you were to go with FWD (Huge savings)...
BUT I will recommend the 4Motion Arteon all day everyday. I really do love my car.
My 2 cents!


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## knedrgr (Jun 6, 2011)

Test drove the 4M SEL-P R-line and it was pretty nice. Power delivery was on point and corned well. This is comparing against my 4M Atlas VR6. Both having the same 4M set up. They perform exactly the same in the corner, and coming off the line. 

When compared against my wife's MK7 Jetta R-line (which has the XDS E-diff), I can't see myself getting the FWD for the wheel spin, coming off the line, and less corner control. I'm sure better traction can be had with some investments in stickier/sportier tires on the FWD. But that's a consuming variable cost to maintain the handling characteristics of the 4M system. The flip side of the 4M is fluid change every 30K, which is roughly a $100 hit (if you want to run the o-ring replacement kit), or $50 without the o-ring kit. 

It just comes down to some math and what you're willing to live with.

I see that you're also in northern Ohio region, same here. Snow driving might or might not be in your plan, so that's another consideration.

If I was to get the Arteon, it would be the 4M variant. But it wouldn't see the snow, since that's what the Atlas is for.


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## ice4life (Nov 6, 2017)

knedrgr said:


> Test drove the 4M SEL-P R-line and it was pretty nice. Power delivery was on point and corned well. This is comparing against my 4M Atlas VR6. Both having the same 4M set up. They perform exactly the same in the corner, and coming off the line.
> 
> When compared against my wife's MK7 Jetta R-line (which has the XDS E-diff), I can't see myself getting the FWD for the wheel spin, coming off the line, and less corner control. I'm sure better traction can be had with some investments in stickier/sportier tires on the FWD. But that's a consuming variable cost to maintain the handling characteristics of the 4M system. The flip side of the 4M is fluid change every 30K, which is roughly a $100 hit (if you want to run the o-ring replacement kit), or $50 without the o-ring kit.
> 
> ...


All Arteons have the XDS e-diff regardless of FWD or AWD. I haven't been able to try a FWD Arteon as they don't really ship them to the mountain region, but I can attest to the XDS being very well integrated with the 4motion system. I even coded the XDS to be more sensitive and it corners like a beast for the size of the car!


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## knedrgr (Jun 6, 2011)

ice4life said:


> All Arteons have the XDS e-diff regardless of FWD or AWD. I haven't been able to try a FWD Arteon as they don't really ship them to the mountain region, but I can attest to the XDS being very well integrated with the 4motion system. I even coded the XDS to be more sensitive and it corners like a beast for the size of the car!


Yes, understood it comes with the XDS system. My point was that it's the same system as the one in my wife's MK7 Jetta, and if it performs the same in her smaller 1.4T, it would be evident that I (stating for myself) wouldn't want it in a FWD Arteon. I know it's not apples-apples comparison. I know we also need to take into account the tire's contact patch of 205 (Jetta) vs 245 (Arteon). Even with the higher lb/hp ratio of the Jetta, it still sucks, and I can still break those tires loose. 

Jetta R-line: 2970lbs/147hp = 20.2lb/hp

Arteon FWD SE: 3655lbs/268hp = 13.6lb/hp


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## ice4life (Nov 6, 2017)

knedrgr said:


> Yes, understood it comes with the XDS system. My point was that it's the same system as the one in my wife's MK7 Jetta, and if it performs the same in her smaller 1.4T, it would be evident that I (stating for myself) wouldn't want it in a FWD Arteon. I know it's not apples-apples comparison. I know we also need to take into account the tire's contact patch of 205 (Jetta) vs 245 (Arteon). Even with the higher lb/hp ratio of the Jetta, it still sucks, and I can still break those tires loose.
> 
> Jetta R-line: 2970lbs/147hp = 20.2lb/hp
> 
> Arteon FWD SE: 3655lbs/268hp = 13.6lb/hp



Sorry, I misread what you were saying. If you say the Jetta FWD is a bad iteration of XDS, I take your word for it. Happy how the 4mo and xds work together on the Arteon 4mo!


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## The G Man (Jun 26, 2019)

The arteon does handle well for its ride comfort level. Usually there is a correlation between handle and ride comfort, cars in the $40000 range do not offer both comfortable ride and good handling, the arteon is an exception. I guess it can be attribute to the low center of gravity, awd, adaptive suspension and brake vectoring. I have to admit, the audi a5 has nothing on this car, the handling/comfort ratio of the arteon is tops in this category in my opinion.


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## Faramarz1 (May 13, 2010)

The ride quality is a bit better compared to A5 but handling and power delivery of the A5 with stiffer chassis and Quattro permanent AWD is way better IMO. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## The G Man (Jun 26, 2019)

Faramarz1 said:


> The ride quality is a bit better compared to A5 but handling and power delivery of the A5 with stiffer chassis and Quattro permanent AWD is way better IMO.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Its really about the combination of the two for me. If you have to assign a number from 1 to 10 for both ride comfort and handling, then add them up. In my opinion, that number is higher on the arteon. Audi a5 handling 8, ride comfort 5. Arteon, 6 and 8 respectively. This is where adaptive suspension shines.


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## Faramarz1 (May 13, 2010)

I agree the Arteon has the more comfortable ride among the two and standard DCC gives it an edge over many cars in its class. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## The G Man (Jun 26, 2019)

The funny thing is; when I test drove the Audi a5 and s5 back to back, the a5 handled better. Probably due to lighter weight up front, the handling difference was especially noticeable in city driving. The a5 did not have adaptive suspension but the s5 did.


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## SCHWAB0 (Dec 6, 2004)

Curve ball... resale will be better on the AWD ....

What sort of climate we dealing with here?


Sent from my mobile office.


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## knedrgr (Jun 6, 2011)

SCHWAB0 said:


> Curve ball... resale will be better on the AWD ....
> 
> *What sort of climate we dealing with here?*
> 
> ...



snowy Northern Ohio, I'm assuming, based on his profile info.


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## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

SCHWAB0 said:


> Curve ball... resale will be better on the AWD ....
> 
> What sort of climate we dealing with here?
> 
> ...





knedrgr said:


> snowy Northern Ohio, I'm assuming, based on his profile info.


Beautiful Cleveland Ohio (only 1/2 sarcastic here; don’t tell anyone it’s actually a great city). 

Good point on resale.


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## knedrgr (Jun 6, 2011)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> Beautiful Cleveland Ohio (only 1/2 sarcastic here; don’t tell anyone it’s actually a great city).
> 
> Good point on resale.


It's a great city. Been in the area for the last 30ish years.


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## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

knedrgr said:


> It's a great city. Been in the area for the last 30ish years.


Shhhh! People might find out! We need to keep this to ourselves.


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## knedrgr (Jun 6, 2011)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> Shhhh! People might find out! We need to keep this to ourselves.


It's a horrible city with a lot of pollution...remember burning river...


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## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

knedrgr said:


> It's a horrible city with a lot of pollution...remember burning river...


Soooo polluted:


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## SWES2006 (Jul 26, 2006)

Better to Have and Not need then Need and not have ........... 4motion for the WIN


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## SCHWAB0 (Dec 6, 2004)

knedrgr said:


> snowy Northern Ohio, I'm assuming, based on his profile info.


can't see that in tapatalk without doing some digging.






silverspeedbuggy said:


> Beautiful Cleveland Ohio (only 1/2 sarcastic here; don’t tell anyone it’s actually a great city).
> 
> Good point on resale.


So you get fair amount of snow, well worth it!


Sent from my mobile office.


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## child_in_time (Aug 9, 2006)

I am considering Arteon as a replacement for my mk7 GTI. I was looking into SE R-Line with AWD...there is one in color I like 3 hrs away and $7k off msrp...trying to persuade local dealer to price match the competitor out of state


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## M Diddy (Sep 25, 2002)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> Beautiful Cleveland Ohio (only 1/2 sarcastic here; don’t tell anyone it’s actually a great city).
> 
> Good point on resale.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysmLA5TqbIY


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## The G Man (Jun 26, 2019)

I have never driven the fwd version of the arteon before, therefore my opinion is basically an opinion. These new light weight awd system are going to help with handling and foul weather,mthe mpg penalty is very low. Anyone know how much the 4 motion system weights?


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## beaumisbro (Oct 2, 2009)

The G Man said:


> I have never driven the fwd version of the arteon before, therefore my opinion is basically an opinion. These new light weight awd system are going to help with handling and foul weather,mthe mpg penalty is very low. Anyone know how much the 4 motion system weights?


Curb Weight
Arteon 4Motion: 3854lbs
Arteon FWD: 3655lbs


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## michaelj05 (Sep 17, 2019)

Clevelander here with a 4MOTION. I very briefly test drove a FWD Arteon before I bought my 4MO Arteon. (I really wasn’t considering buying the FWD, I just wanted to feel the difference in the car with the 18” wheels and the dealer had a FWD with the 18s.)

This is my first non-FWD car ever. In the few days of bad weather we’ve had so far this fall, I’ve been pretty impressed with my 4MO Arteon’s handling.

As far as dry handling goes, when I was on the ramp from I-77N to I-480W last night, I noticed how much more quickly I felt like I could take the curve. In my last car with FWD I would only feel comfortable taking it at about 60-65. Last night I took it at 70 and felt like I could have even gone faster. It was a great feeling!

Also: I still haven’t seen another Arteon on the road in NE Ohio.


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## The G Man (Jun 26, 2019)

beaumisbro said:


> Curb Weight
> Arteon 4Motion: 3854lbs
> Arteon FWD: 3655lbs


Thank you, there is only 200 pounds difference between the two, fwd vs awd is a no brainer. If it was rwd vs awd, it might be harding to choose due to the better cornering feel of the rwd vs fwd but in most rwd vs awd cars i have driven, the awd still handling better but the rwd have a better feel corning.


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## child_in_time (Aug 9, 2006)

michaelj05 said:


> Clevelander here with a 4MOTION. I very briefly test drove a FWD Arteon before I bought my 4MO Arteon. (I really wasn’t considering buying the FWD, I just wanted to feel the difference in the car with the 18” wheels and the dealer had a FWD with the 18s.)
> 
> This is my first non-FWD car ever. In the few days of bad weather we’ve had so far this fall, I’ve been pretty impressed with my 4MO Arteon’s handling.
> 
> ...


How is the ride quality on 20” wheels? I like R-Line package but wish they had option for 18” wheels.


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## michaelj05 (Sep 17, 2019)

child_in_time said:


> How is the ride quality on 20” wheels? I like R-Line package but wish they had option for 18” wheels.


I have the 19” Montevideo wheels on my R-Line. The 19s on R-Line won’t be an option in 2020, so you might want to pick up one of the remaining 2019s if you don’t want the 20” wheels.


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## child_in_time (Aug 9, 2006)

michaelj05 said:


> I have the 19” Montevideo wheels on my R-Line. The 19s on R-Line won’t be an option in 2020, so you might want to pick up one of the remaining 2019s if you don’t want the 20” wheels.


2019 SE R-line I just looked at yesterday has 20” dark wheels.

https://www.3riversvw.com/vehicle-details/2019-volkswagen-arteon-se-r-line-pittsburgh-pa-id-32059379


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## ice4life (Nov 6, 2017)

child_in_time said:


> 2019 SE R-line I just looked at yesterday has 20” dark wheels.
> 
> https://www.3riversvw.com/vehicle-details/2019-volkswagen-arteon-se-r-line-pittsburgh-pa-id-32059379


Yeah all SE and SEL R-Lines have the 20s for 2019 since theose trims were available later. The SEL premium R-Line had 19s at first, and then they started getting the 20s along with the rest of them. 

SE R-Line is discontinued for 2020.

Also I can't believe it's 40k without a sunroof. Yikes.


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## The G Man (Jun 26, 2019)

I guess i for one does not understand this trend toward larger rims, not only its not practical in areas with bad roads it does not look very good when it is over sized. I think those vw black turbine rims will look just as nice in the 19” size. One top of that, the larger rims are bad for handling due to the extra weight. The heavier rims also takes longer to get moving and longer braking.


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## VdubArty (Oct 23, 2019)

child_in_time said:


> 2019 SE R-line I just looked at yesterday has 20” dark wheels.
> 
> https://www.3riversvw.com/vehicle-details/2019-volkswagen-arteon-se-r-line-pittsburgh-pa-id-32059379


I have 20s on mine, like them a lot, run on Comfort mode and it will be fine.


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## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

Thanks to everyone for the perspective. I'm in a holding pattern now; waiting for the bank to finalize our home re-fi. It was supposed to close last week, but there have been paperwork delays. 

FWIW, I'm not sure I'll be going with the Arteon. I love the car, but even with the discounts and the potential for low financing, the price is more than I want to pay. Is it a great deal? HELL YES, but it's about $5K more than I really want to go. Can I afford it? Sure, but I don't think I want that much of my income going to a car payment. 

Maybe if there's add'l cash on the hood, and the dealer can go lower, it could become a more viable option, but until this re-fi processes, I can't do anything anyway.


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## beaumisbro (Oct 2, 2009)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> Thanks to everyone for the perspective. I'm in a holding pattern now; waiting for the bank to finalize our home re-fi. It was supposed to close last week, but there have been paperwork delays.
> FWIW, I'm not sure I'll be going with the Arteon. I love the car, but even with the discounts and the potential for low financing, the price is more than I want to pay. Is it a great deal? HELL YES, but it's about $5K more than I really want to go. Can I afford it? Sure, but I don't think I want that much of my income going to a car payment.
> Maybe if there's add'l cash on the hood, and the dealer can go lower, it could become a more viable option, but until this re-fi processes, I can't do anything anyway.


That makes sense. No car is worth messing up your finances. You have the option to wait for additional discounts, or wait for lightly used Arteons to show up in the market. CPOs should be a great deal on these.


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## ice4life (Nov 6, 2017)

beaumisbro said:


> That makes sense. No car is worth messing up your finances. You have the option to wait for additional discounts, or wait for lightly used Arteons to show up in the market. CPOs should be a great deal on these.





silverspeedbuggy said:


> Thanks to everyone for the perspective. I'm in a holding pattern now; waiting for the bank to finalize our home re-fi. It was supposed to close last week, but there have been paperwork delays.
> 
> FWIW, I'm not sure I'll be going with the Arteon. I love the car, but even with the discounts and the potential for low financing, the price is more than I want to pay. Is it a great deal? HELL YES, but it's about $5K more than I really want to go. Can I afford it? Sure, but I don't think I want that much of my income going to a car payment.
> 
> Maybe if there's add'l cash on the hood, and the dealer can go lower, it could become a more viable option, but until this re-fi processes, I can't do anything anyway.


Too bad you didn't catch my buy back sel prem rline. They let it go with 380 miles for about 32k.


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## kirk_augustin (Jul 21, 2012)

Four motion adds about 300 pounds, but cuts mileage by at least 10% due to additional friction.
But that is not the main reason to try to avoid it.
It adds far more clutter, failure points, and things to maintenance, like 2 more differentials.

Since Cleveland is flat, you do not need 4motion.
You only need the extra traction on slippery hills.
It does not help with braking.


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## kirk_augustin (Jul 21, 2012)

VdubArty said:


> I have 20s on mine, like them a lot, run on Comfort mode and it will be fine.



Comfort mode can not make up for the fact the rubber is what takes the hit on pot holes.
The weight of the spindle, strut, brake caliper, etc., prevent the suspension from being nearly as good on pot holes as high profile rubber.
There is absolutely no reason at all to go wide rims and low profile rubber.
It can not possibly work well on real streets.
It is only good for tracks, where there are no pot holes.


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## todddr (Jun 27, 2011)

I recently traded in a 2013 cc exec 4mo; i trst drove an arteon 4mo. I loved it. But turned out getting the wife a new Tiguan SEL. After having the cc with 4mo for 6 years i will never have just FWD again. Many awful snowstorms and that cc with a set of Blizzaks was like a tank... when other vehicles with AWD/4wd were sliding off tge road i just kept on going (and frankly, at decent speeds) with no worry. Better than my BMW xdrive in snow i might add.


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## knedrgr (Jun 6, 2011)

kirk_augustin said:


> Four motion adds about 300 pounds, but cuts mileage by at least 10% due to additional friction.
> But that is not the main reason to try to avoid it.
> It adds far more clutter, failure points, and things to maintenance, like 2 more differentials.
> 
> ...



Because 4motion doesn't help in turns or anything...


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## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

kirk_augustin said:


> Four motion adds about 300 pounds, but cuts mileage by at least 10% due to additional friction.
> But that is not the main reason to try to avoid it.
> It adds far more clutter, failure points, and things to maintenance, like 2 more differentials.
> 
> ...


Not sure where you're from, but while Cleveland is no San Francisco, or Denver, we do have a hilly terrain east of the city (where I live and work). But terrain is only one piece of the puzzle; we also get snow. Sometimes we get lots of snow - google Chardon Ohio (it sometimes pops up on the national news for amount of snow in short periods of time, and it's only 10 minutes further east from my office). Couple unpredictable snow storms with overwhelmed DOT snow clearing/salting and there are plenty of times where AWD is appreciated and even needed. 

For what it's worth, I've had FWD cars since I started driving in 1990, and 80% of the time in the winter it's been fine. But if I buy an Arteon, for only a grand-ish more to get the extra traction on those awful days AND a better handling car AND one with better resale (in theory), then I think it's money well spent. I'll give you the potential failure points, but with a 6 year warranty I'm not terribly concerned. MPGs don't mean much to me; I put less than 10K a year on my daily and my commute is very short (with no freeway), so a few MPGs less doesn't impact me much.


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## The G Man (Jun 26, 2019)

kirk_augustin said:


> It adds far more clutter, failure points, and things to maintenance, like 2 more differentials.


You can say the same about ABS brakes, fuel injectors, adaptive suspension................................................its just more $hit that can break. So what kind of horse do you ride and do you have health insurance for your horse?


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## knedrgr (Jun 6, 2011)

The G Man said:


> You can say the same about ABS brakes, fuel injectors, adaptive suspension................................................its just more $hit that can break. So what kind of horse do you ride and do you have health insurance for your horse?


To help you understand, here's another quote from the Jetta MK7 sub-forum:



kirk_augustin said:


> Never add front wheel spacers.
> Suspensions are carefully designed to put the wheel in the exact center of the pivot for the wheel.
> *If you add spacers, then the wheel is outside the center of pivot, and will act as a lever if you hit something like a pot hole, and that can then cause the steering wheel to snap back and break fingers.*
> Spacers also cause much more resistance to turning the wheel, and throw off the whole alignment.
> ...


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## The G Man (Jun 26, 2019)

knedrgr said:


> To help you understand, here's another quote from the Jetta MK7 sub-forum:


???


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## knedrgr (Jun 6, 2011)

The G Man said:


> ???


Read what I'd highlighted within his quote. That points out his logic: steering wheel to snap back and break fingers.

The thread was about someone asking info on running spacers.


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## The G Man (Jun 26, 2019)

knedrgr said:


> Read what I'd highlighted within his quote. That points out his logic: steering wheel to snap back and break fingers.
> 
> The thread was about someone asking info on running spacers.


What does that have to do with AWD adding complexity?


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## knedrgr (Jun 6, 2011)

The G Man said:


> What does that have to do with AWD adding complexity?


It has NOTHING to do with the AWD system. However, I was trying to say that this other reply, in a different post (which I'd quoted), gives you an insight into his train of thought...which are irregular.


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## Dieseldog12 (Jul 29, 2012)

To his defense, I've broken all 4 of my right hand fingers due to my wheel spacers and wheel snap back, but it's the price i pay for that crazy awesome flush look!!!! 

Good thing I'm left handed! Lol


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## knedrgr (Jun 6, 2011)

Dieseldog12 said:


> To his defense, I've broken all 4 of my right hand fingers due to my wheel spacers and wheel snap back, but it's the price i pay for that crazy awesome flush look!!!!
> 
> Good thing I'm left handed! Lol


hahahaha. Still rocking those spacers for looks?


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## ice4life (Nov 6, 2017)

Snow storm #15 this fall season (most snow storms I can ever remember before winter began- first one was very beginning of Oct). Today we got around 14" which was the worst of them- The Arteon handles amazing, and if it had FWD I would not have trusted it even with how those typically do in the snow. It was just too deep and wintry. Very impressed with the 4motion iteration on this car. of my 26 cars, it seems 15 had AWD or 4WD. Believe it or not, I would put this up there with the Range Rover and Grand Cherokee- it just instills confidence. The only thing lacking is ground clearance, and even that is not too bad compared to other sedans I've had. I think the worst was the Journey as it was truly a FWD crossover that would do its best to route power to the rear but it was so front biased that it just sucked.

2005 Range Rover 4WD (with locker)

2008 Enclave AWD

2006 E350 Sedan 4Matic
2005 C240 Wagon 4Matic

2011 Touareg 4Motion
2018 Atlas 4Motion
2019 Arteon 4Motion (#1)
2019 Arteon 4Motion (#2)

2016 Outback Symmetrical AWD

2013 Cayenne S AWD (with 2 lockers)

2017 Grand Cherokee Quadra-Drive 4WD (with locker)

2010 535it x-Drive

2017 S90 AWD
2005 XC90 AWD

2018 Journey AWD


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## Dieseldog12 (Jul 29, 2012)

knedrgr said:


> hahahaha. Still rocking those spacers for looks?


I'd rather walk than be caught driving and unflush car.


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## Jonathan Shefftz (May 19, 2019)

ice4life said:


> Snow storm #15 this fall season (most snow storms I can ever remember before winter began- first one was very beginning of Oct). Today we got around 14" which was the worst of them [...]


My flight home Sunday evening out of Denver (after a weekend of skimo racing at Eldora) was delayed a couple hours, but after I read about what Monday evening was like at the airport, I felt grateful for my timing -- you guys sure are getting a lot of early snow this year down low in civilization!


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## buffym (Jul 11, 2019)

This is my first AWD car. Is the Arteon like other AWD cars that I have read about, where if I have to replace one tire, I'll have to replace the other three too (or shave the new one)?


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## The G Man (Jun 26, 2019)

buffym said:


> This is my first AWD car. Is the Arteon like other AWD cars that I have read about, where if I have to replace one tire, I'll have to replace the other three too (or shave the new one)?


Most AWD cars are like that, if the tires on the same axle are close to new, then you can replace just one tire. the idea is not to have more than 1/16 of inch difference in the 4 tire's diameter.


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## Jonathan Shefftz (May 19, 2019)

I've read various posts in various forums as to the official max tolerance for tread differential among different AWD systems.
But I can't find any official source?
Typical discussion here:
https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?9158025-Replacing-only-1-tire-on-4motion


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## av_audi (Apr 5, 2001)

knedrgr said:


> The flip side of the 4M is fluid change every 30K, which is roughly a $100 hit (if you want to run the o-ring replacement kit), or $50 without the o-ring kit.


I didn't know about this. Is the cost you are quoting for DIY?


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## av_audi (Apr 5, 2001)

knedrgr said:


> Because 4motion doesn't help in turns or anything...


It helps mostly in powering out of a curve, which is a big deal in racing, but otherwise it's just extra weight.


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## knedrgr (Jun 6, 2011)

av_audi said:


> I didn't know about this. Is the cost you are quoting for DIY?


Yes. Parts can be purchased for DIY for the latest Haldex gen.




av_audi said:


> It helps mostly in powering out of a curve, which is a big deal in racing, but otherwise it's just extra weight.


that post was in jest...


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