# MS3 Beta Testing



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Some of you MS savvy folk may already know, but MS3 beta testing is going on right now. Luckily, I am in possession of one of the Beta units and I'm going to share some information and all of my experiences with the MS3. 
First off I'd like to start off with a link to the MS3 information for those of you who don't know what's in store
http://www.ms3efi.com/index.html








Similar to the MS2 upgrade, MS3 is a processor core replacement in addition to quite a few features aimed at further expansion. The two obvious features are the on board USB and the SD car port. 
The testing in this phase is targeted for 'upgrade' mode from an MS1 or MS2 processor. In the near future, an MS3X board will offer expanded I/O for sequential fuel injection, additional coil drivers, and many other generic and dedicated hardware PWM I/O. Again see the link for additional details. 
After some bench testing with the new board (and one code bug spotted) I attempted to put MS3 on the car this past weekend. 
Amazing the car started with just a few cranks and a bit of pedal Other then blowing a bunch of smoke (oil) out of the exhaust it ran. Success!! Well, sort of, it wouldn't hold an idle worth a poo and seemed to be misfiring. Time to see what's up... 
Just having put the car back together after multiple changes, it was time to check the stupids, and sure enough cyl 5 injector wasn't plugged in. Doh. Slapped it all back together to try again. 
This time, the car started right up, more smoke, but after some a/f tweaks and upping of the idle valve duty, it held an idle. I don't think I got MS1 working that quick.








I'm still having some sort of trouble with the wideband so I haven't done much tuning but I did rip it up and down the street and it runs pretty well. Especially considering it's experimental code with a brand new daughter board, with a lot of default settings!
There are a few features that are built into the latest versions of the Tunerstudio software that make this possible. The VE and Spark import features can actually rescale the 12x12 tables to MfS3's 16x16 without any further input:
MS1 VE1








MS3 VE1








MS1 Ignition1








MS3 Ignition1








There's also a new feature called "difference reports" that catch the differences between the on board msq and any new msq that you try and load on top of it. If you make offline changes and go to connect, it will prompt you to verify each one and you can even select from something entirely different if the need arises. 
Setting up the ignition has never been easier, it's all been changed to a single, more simple setup screen:








Timing was spot on with the 78deg trigger with no additional adjustments needed. 
I need to fix my oiling issues, but I will be putting some additional mileage on the setup and continuing my testing over the next few weeks. I hope to get USB and the SD car logging working once the car is running a little better.
Stay tuned for updates!!


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## diceman469 (Sep 3, 2003)

*Re: MS3 Beta Testing (need_a_VR6)*

That think is sick. I love the built-in datalogging.
I run MS2 and although it's been out for years it's never really taken on like MS1 did. I wonder if it will be different this time.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: MS3 Beta Testing (need_a_VR6)*

definitely keep us posted Paul. Very very interested in the onboard DL. It'll make tuning our racecars WAY easier.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: MS3 Beta Testing (diceman469)*

I never fully bought into MS2, especially with how far advanced MS1/Extra was at it's release. It would have been hard to give up some of those features for the little bit more MS2 could do. I think that MS2/E is fully worth it over MS1/E now, but it's a hard sell with MS3 close. 
I was about to buy an Innovate data logger when I heard about the features of MS3.. glad I waited! Looks like MS3 should have some good wheel speed/vss/analog logging for you turny guys too.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: MS3 Beta Testing (need_a_VR6)*

SWEET!


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: MS3 Beta Testing (need_a_VR6)*

Paul,
Question for you. So this unit will be able to function as a daughter board to MS1 (V2.2)? Looks like the std code offers 16x16 fueling/ign maps...

Just wondering if there is any benefit to adding this on top of 2.2 extra for my ITB install (alpha tune, no idle valve)? Thinking the sequential vs batch might be nice plus the logging options (though, I thought MS1 had options for logging).....????

Thanks,
Eric


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## diceman469 (Sep 3, 2003)

*Re: MS3 Beta Testing (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_I never fully bought into MS2, especially with how far advanced MS1/Extra was at it's release.

Yeah I bought MS2 at the end of 2005, so I was betting it was going to be the next thing. The lack of support out there really made it hard to get it running. If I would have bought my MS in 2007 I probably would have went with the MS1.
Now that I have a GTI that will be getting MS, I may wait for MS3 to come to fruition and throw this in my Cabby, then throw the MS2 in the GTI. We will see what the price will be.


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: MS3 Beta Testing (need_a_VR6)*

Thanks for the update! I was unaware that MS3 was already in Beta








I would love to beta test on my v3 MS1 setup as I had considered MS2 now that the extra code is firm. As you said, MS2 was not an option for me previously because:
- loss of features from MS1 Extra
- The HR code made such a huge diff.
The USB and SD is the t!ts.
EDIT: guess the Beta testers have been chosen already.
Shawn


_Modified by sdezego at 1:17 PM 8-28-2009_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: MS3 Beta Testing (Fast929)*

Yes, MS3 will work with all main boards, just like MS2 did. I do not know if there will be off the shelf case options for those older ones though. All MS versions have laptop logging, but this adds on board SD card logging, no laptop required in the car. 
The beta testers were chosen a while ago, not that many either other then the code developers. Few different types of installs though, to spread experiences as far as possible over what needs to be tested.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: MS3 Beta Testing (need_a_VR6)*

looking forward to getting this when it comes out http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

*Re: MS3 Beta Testing (ValveCoverGasket)*

schhaaweeeet. Thanks for giving us a preview.


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## PapioGXL (Jun 3, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Any idea on when this will be a full release?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (PapioGXL)*

Honestly I'm not sure when, it really depends on if MS3 is going to wait for the MS3x board to be released at the same time. 
Drove on MS3 a good distance this morning for the first time. I have to say that I'm impressed.
Default cold start worked for me on the coldest morning so far (58F







) which is nice to see. I'm going to not touch it until I have to it would be very nice if defaults worked well.
My VE table seems *way* off at AFR richer then 14.7 from MS1 after logging the drive. I do have multiply AFR on, which is probably the cause. I am not sure exactly how that effects the ve table, but some documentation there would be good.
Idle valve duty is still 2x what it was on MS1 running 111hz now instead of 100hz. I will switched to closed loop once things get tuned in a little more. This car likes to idle bounce badly anyway.
That's all for now. Going to tweak based on the logs and have another drive at lunch. Back home and then a 100mi trip tonight.







Nothing like traveling on the bleeding edge.


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

*FV-QR*

looks like I know the direction i need to be going...


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## VOLKS-MAN (Oct 7, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (TheBurninator)*

This might be a little early but what should we expect for pricing?


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: MS3 Beta Testing (need_a_VR6)*

16x16... nice.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: MS3 Beta Testing (DieGTi)*

No idea on pricing at this point, I say it's more then MS2 for sure. 
Got more tuning in this morning, and it runs reasonably well. Almost ready to turn closed loop idle on, now that the VE is looking better. 
Also I've been tuning it with AFR included in the fuel calcs. What this does is multiplies your ve by stoich/target afr so that if you ever want to make AFR only changes you can do it right in the AFR table without changing VE at all. It's going to be great for capturing max power afr on the dyno and quick tweaks at the track. 
One issue I'm having is with racing timing occasionally. This is caused by my big throttle body, and the relatively high map at idle but the lower map that can happen as the revs rise. I might try some AlphaN blending later on if I can't tune it out.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: MS3 Beta Testing (need_a_VR6)*

Tuned accel with normal AE got it working well. Working on EAE now and my head is swimming even though I know how it works. Should be better once I get it dialed. 
Drove to work without the laptop and hopefully have some logs on the SD card today when I get home.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: MS3 Beta Testing (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Drove to work without the laptop and hopefully have some logs on the SD card today when I get home.

very cool http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif one of the most interesting features from what ive seen


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## evil-e (Aug 15, 2005)

*Re: MS3 Beta Testing (need_a_VR6)*

MS3 should be able to be configured to run E85 right?


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## arenjenkins (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (VOLKS-MAN)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VOLKS-MAN* »_This might be a little early but what should we expect for pricing?


_Quote, originally posted by *PapioGXL* »_Any idea on when this will be a full release?

posted a week ago by matt cramer on theturboforums.com:
"The only real answer to the release date is "when all the bugs they find in testing are worked out," but there's a good chance that may be by the end of the year, at least for the processor and SD card part of it. Pricing is a bit less certain; there are some parts we haven't priced out yet like the new case."
this may come at about the perfect time for my car, im very excited.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: MS3 Beta Testing (evil-e)*

Yes, E85 is supported in regular fuel mode, as well with the GM flex fuel sensor. I'm also lobbying for a 'flex on table switch' mode to be able to drive on gas but run E85 switching tune at the track that will also be able to change some of the main constants like the flex mode does already.
Checking out what all the other beta testers posting, things seem like they're moving well, and quickly so far. No show stoppers for me so far, other then needing to build a daughter board to test some of the 3x features before that board is out for beta. I really want to use VSS for gas mileage.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: MS3 Beta Testing (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Yes, E85 is supported in regular fuel mode, as well with the GM flex fuel sensor. I'm also lobbying for a 'flex on table switch' mode to be able to drive on gas but run E85 switching tune at the track that will also be able to change some of the main constants like the flex mode does already.
Checking out what all the other beta testers posting, things seem like they're moving well, and quickly so far. No show stoppers for me so far, other then needing to build a daughter board to test some of the 3x features before that board is out for beta. I really want to use VSS for gas mileage.









Let us know how the VSS thing goes... I'm quite interested in that posibilty!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: MS3 Beta Testing (Prof315)*

I'm eying up the pin every day.. just haven't gotten confirmation on the conditioning circuit it needs.


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## frrtbkr (Aug 1, 2004)

Neat, thanks for sharing.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (frrtbkr)*

Been daily driving it on MS3 now for quite awhile. Got the SD card working intermittently but need to upgrade the code to go much further. It's running so well that it's hard to think of this code as alpha!! 
I'll start posting some better tuned ve screen shots once I get the new motor in the car for this weekend. Having some compression might help it run even better.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

So in another thread I promised an update.. 
I managed to do build yet another new MS board for MS3 testing, a daughter board to test the 3x feature list, and do an entire engine swap in the three weeks before I moved earlier this month. Now that I'm a bit more settled, here is where I am with MS3. 
Got the new motor installed and ran it on ME2.9 for a bit just to check the 'stupids' which I try and do every time I change more then one thing at a time. Car ran and drove fine considering the lack of a MAF and the new 30lb injectors. Try to swap to MS3 and the car just wouldn't start.. two days later and some logging, it was a bug in VE3 not looking up, and a second bug causing VE3 to be active even when not table switched. Well, turn off switching and the car fires up and idles perfectly! I drove it to the new house carefully on the old tune and parked it for a bit to get settled.
I've had some time to work on the tune quite a bit and I think VE is dialed in till about 4500 or so. After that it's either excessive wheel spin in lower gears, or getting into dangerous speeds in higher gears. Time for a dyno I think. 
I have a problem with the tps being noisy, not sure if it's wiring related or the sensor or the board but I've been using mapdot lately. I've only used it once before, but with a little fiddling it's working ok. I get a funky bog sometimes because of how aggressive I've set it, but it's necessary with my 75mm tb. Going to EAE next to try and make it even better.
I'm also going to be spending my time making my injector dead time right, default at 1ms is just not right for these injectors. I get some varying afr as some of the corrections roll in (especially air temp). Also going to try PID O2 for the first time as well.
Currently waiting for the 3x board to try out sequential. I have to wire up the cam sensor so I can send James wheel logs so it can get decoded (late VR6 multi tooth cam wheel). 
Lots of SD logs have been completed and the sample rate is amazing, much better then serial. This does introduce some funny-ness trying to VE-Analyze, as the cell changes need to be made even harder due to all points. 
All in all the car is running well (better then ever?) and MS3 is working for me and my application. I'll try and do more frequent updates as things actually happen








Stay tuned.


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## TheBurninator (Jan 7, 2009)

*FV-QR*

Good stuff. Any word on when the ms3 stuff will be out of beta testing?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (TheBurninator)*

There's talk about it being released at the Spring '10 Megameet in May. That will depend on how the rest of the beta testing goes.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*

Patiently waiting...


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

when are you upgrading my rabbit from my v2.2 ms1 board.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

When I can get a hold of more then just the one!


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## tunz98 (May 20, 2006)

the question i have is im planning on buying a ms2 v3.0 here in the next few months. I would rather have the newer ms3.... do i wait longer? or is there an upgrade add on for users who are running the ms2 and want to jump up to the newer 3 when that comes out?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: (tunz98)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tunz98* »_the question i have is im planning on buying a ms2 v3.0 here in the next few months. I would rather have the newer ms3.... do i wait longer? or is there an upgrade add on for users who are running the ms2 and want to jump up to the newer 3 when that comes out?

You can upgrade with either just the MS3 daughterboard or add the ms3x board as well. I'm currently testing my MS3 beta board with a v3.57 main board but it will go on a v3.0 mainboard that is running MS1 extra hi-res now next.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*

Exactly. MS3 and MS3x are a direct upgrade for MS1/2 on any mainboard, with just a processor and case swap.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*

I've noticed the first batch of public release for retails units have sold out. Safe to say the beta testing was deemed successful?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*

No hardware problems at all with MS3's. 3x did have one hardware issue and is getting a board rev right now. 
Early release firmware has no big issues, but little stuff might pop up on combos that haven't been fully tested. 
I'm very happy with how it went. It was smoother then certain revs of MS1/Extra code!


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