# TFSI vs TSI reliability



## ManUntd7 (Jun 1, 2007)

I know for a fact that the FSI isn't very reliable, many people are having problems with it. I haven't found many articles/threads on the web to describe the reliability of the TFSI and TSI, so I am coming here to find out more about these two engines.


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## rottenspam (Apr 7, 2008)

I've owned cars with both engines. I had a 2008 Jetta Woldfsburg with the 2.0T FSI engine. I currently drive a 2011 GTI with the TSI engine. My brother also owns an 06 FSI engine. I can't say the one or the other has been more reliable for me. Both of my cars had 0 problems with the engine. My brothers 06 FSI with 80K miles has only had a thermostat fail and a temperature sensor fail. My GFs 2.0 FSI has had zero issues as well.

However, both engines have some trouble spots that affect a minority of engines. Its hard to believe its only a few the way the webs blow a few peoples problems into something that all engines are doomed! But don't confuse a dozen people on a forum with reporting they have a problem as a mass trouble spot on an engine. The cam follower issue and carbon build up are real issues on an FSI but 99.9% of folks aren't really impacted by either issue. You just hear a vocal minority making a lot of noise that all FSI's are doomed to failure.

TSIs have their problems with timing belts jumping and water pumps failing. Again, never known anyone with these problems, and you read only a few people on the net as having them. Which isn't a good representative sample.

Both engines are fine and will last a long time if taken care of.


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## ViRtUaLheretic (Aug 17, 2008)

Yeah the only real main problem with the FSI is the cam follower, and HPA sells a fix for that. The FSI also has a weaker HPFP, but again APR has a fix.

Just like the 1.8T, eventually the aftermarket made all the needed fixes for the flaws with the motor.

However at the current time the FSI has a much larger aftermarket so there are more parts/tuning, but eventually the TSI will catch up.

Ninja edit, yeah I guess the FSI does have higher a oil consumption rate.


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## RedLineRob (Feb 8, 2009)

I think the TFSI must be better because APR swapped out most of there FSI's on there race cars for TFSI's


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

ViRtUaLheretic said:


> Just like the 1.8T, eventually the aftermarket made all the needed fixes for the flaws with the motor.


 False..

The 06a 1.8Ts were, and are bulletproof. The aftermarket hasn't ever offered a superior replacement part for a flawed factory component; because there were/are none.

That engine was/is the pinnacle of 'conventional' engine technology, refinement, and durability for an forced induction VW/Audi engine. 

These direct injected engines are still going through growing pains; as its relatively new tech...

Apples/Oranges


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## big_c02 (Mar 7, 2013)

Lots of threads on differences between these two engines.

The TSI is a newer design and of course, the more robust engine. It is the result of several years of finding issues with the FSI and correcting them. 

With that said, I just bought a car with 133k on the FSI motor. Nearly all of the issues inherent to FSI's have recall's available. The exception to this is the supposed oil consumption. Things to check on the FSI:

Cam follower/HPFP/Old rev cam
Diverter valve
Ignition coil
Old rev PCV valve
Timing belt


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

I'm aware of the history of the 2.0T, thanks

New username; not a n00b

I wasn't debating the merits of the new engines; rather I was asserting the FACT that the 1.8Ts didn't have any issues that needed to be rectified by an aftermarket solution.


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## ViRtUaLheretic (Aug 17, 2008)

so if the MKIV motor 1.8T is "perfect" then why did VW design a new 2.0T then another 2.0T then another 1.8T?


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

ViRtUaLheretic said:


> so if the MKIV motor 1.8T is "perfect" then why did VW design a new 2.0T then another 2.0T then another 1.8T?


Newer, superior technology is the obvious answer. I didn't say that the technology, and efficiency of the 2.0T engines was inferior; to the contrary it's exciting new tech.

However; like any new technology, it's bound to have 'growing pains', and issues within the first few years. These issues have been addressed with each engine revision. You guys aren't out of the water yet IMO; as evidenced by the build threads, and the component/engine failures.

Nobody fully understands this new tech yet; not the OEMs, and certainly not the aftermarket.

I think the point I was making in my original post(s) is quite clear. That's why I never bothered to modify my passat that I bought new in 06'. I kept spending my money modifying the engines that were long understood..


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## ViRtUaLheretic (Aug 17, 2008)

I gotcha

Its no secret that I was a strong supporter and early adopter of the TSI, and over the years the flaws of the TSI have begun to emerge (as was expected).

I believe the timing chain tensioner issue is blown out of persepective, but is still a potential weak point of the car, other than that theres the water pump, the flapper on the intake manifold, some valvetrain issues with some MKVI models, and the plastic throttle bodies (found both on FSI and TSI) can be a weak point as well.

Im not super familiar with the 1.8T, but it was my understanding that there were some issues with that as well but I may be mistaken.

Im currently toying with the idea of building a MKII with a BT 1.8T swap


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

There were no issues. There was a supposed 'sludge issue' in the early 1.8T's, but it turned out to be caused by guys running Dino oil in a turbo engine. Push Dino oil through a glowing turbo, and what do you think is going to happen?

The other supposed issue was coil pack failures. Those are attributed again to improper maintenance. Running too big of a plug gap is the root cause of that supposed issue.

That said; my next project is going to be a BT 1.8T mk2 as well :beer:

Enough of these new cars. I need something with a little soul


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## ViRtUaLheretic (Aug 17, 2008)

I thought there was some sort of SAI issue with the 1.8Ts, but people have figured out how to delete the entire SAI system (without CEL). As for the coilpacks there are a couple of vendors that have made adapter plates so you can use FSI/TSI coilpacks on the 1.8T.

Im toying with 3 dif project ideas, VW Baja Bug, v8 miata, or MKII GTI BT 1.8T (stroker maybe?)


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## Brad2021hk (Apr 27, 2012)

Rod Ratio said:


> The other supposed issue was coil pack failures. Those are attributed again to improper maintenance. Running too big of a plug gap is the root cause of that supposed issue.


Of people I know that had 1.8T engines built in 2003 and prior, nearly 100% had an ignition coil failure. Many before 40k miles. I had a coil pack failure on a 1.8T with about 20k miles on the clock. These were the original spark plugs. I knew people that bought a spare coil pack and carried it around in the glove box. 

VW gapped all the spark plugs wrong? If so, this is a maintenance issue? Somehow a car is poorly maintained because everyone that bought one didn't remove the spark plugs after driving home and re-gap them? 

One could argue that the impact of the coil pack issue was not as bad as it's made out to be. Jeez...to argue that it didn't even happen? This is the...excuse the pun...textbook example of what's wrong with revisionist history.


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

If you want to compare press in coil pack failures; to huge dollar major component failures, then Godspeed to you sir.

The two aren't even in the same league. A failed coil pack is like a blown light bulb. It happens. 

Revisionist history?? C'mon man. You're making an apples to oranges comparison.


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## sh{}e (Aug 7, 2004)

ManUntd7 said:


> I know for a fact that the FSI isn't very reliable, many people are having problems with it. I haven't found many articles/threads on the web to describe the reliability of the TFSI and TSI, so I am coming here to find out more about these two engines.


The TFSI is a designation for the 2.0t with valve lift and the TSI is the one without. The FSI is the older 2.0T that came out when the mk5 was introduced.


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## Brad2021hk (Apr 27, 2012)

Rod Ratio said:


> If you want to compare press in coil pack failures; to huge dollar major component failures, then Godspeed to you sir.
> 
> The two aren't even in the same league. A failed coil pack is like a blown light bulb. It happens.
> 
> Revisionist history?? C'mon man. You're making an apples to oranges comparison.


No...I didn't say it was a "huge dollar major component failure." I didn't compare coil pack failures to anything, so where are the apples and oranges? I'm trying to figure out where exactly you got that in my post. I said that you're assertion that it was a "maintenance issue" was totally false. And it is totally false. It's cool that you tried to build up this straw man to beat down rather than accept you were wrong. 

Ironically, you go on to compare apples (coil packs) and oranges (light bulbs). That's kind of silly. Now, you can get a coil pack for $20, but they were a lot more expensive 8 to 10 years ago. I haven't had the light bulb burn out that caused a CEL and a significant drop in engine performance. A lot of people that were getting the car fixed at the dealer were paying several hundred dollars before VW admitted fault and recalled. I also remember having to wait 5 days to get mine replaced due to shortages. I haven't experienced a light bulb shortage. Although, once I went to a parts store and they didn't have the right bulb. Had to go to a different store. I guess that's the same thing. 

There were other problems on the 1.8T I remember after thinking a little harder. Mine lost a water pump at 60k miles. That was also a very common failure on the 1.8T. Not ~100% like the coil pack thing. It was a much higher rate than it should have been.


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

Brad2021hk said:


> No...I didn't say it was a "huge dollar major component failure." I didn't compare coil pack failures to anything, so where are the apples and oranges? I'm trying to figure out where exactly you got that in my post. I said that you're assertion that it was a "maintenance issue" was totally false. And it is totally false. It's cool that you tried to build up this straw man to beat down rather than accept you were wrong.
> 
> Ironically, you go on to compare apples (coil packs) and oranges (light bulbs). That's kind of silly. Now, you can get a coil pack for $20, but they were a lot more expensive 8 to 10 years ago. I haven't had the light bulb burn out that caused a CEL and a significant drop in engine performance. A lot of people that were getting the car fixed at the dealer were paying several hundred dollars before VW admitted fault and recalled. I also remember having to wait 5 days to get mine replaced due to shortages. I haven't experienced a light bulb shortage. Although, once I went to a parts store and they didn't have the right bulb. Had to go to a different store. I guess that's the same thing.


Reading comprehension > You

The "apples to oranges" comparison that I made was in reference to the two engines, and a coil pack is a plug in, BS component. 

I remember when they cost $70 a piece, when I bought my 98' A4 NEW, what's your point?

This is a technical forum, and plugging in a new coil pack is well within the scope of 99% of the posters in this part of the forums ability. Checkbook mechanics are not relevant to this discussion.


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## Brad2021hk (Apr 27, 2012)

Rod Ratio said:


> Reading comprehension > You
> 
> The "apples to oranges" comparison that I made was in reference to the two engines, and a coil pack is a plug in, BS component.
> 
> ...


Cool...you win. Well played. I'm still trying to figure out how anything you've said makes this statement true:


> The other supposed issue was coil pack failures. Those are attributed again to improper maintenance. Running too big of a plug gap is the root cause of that supposed issue.


With my poor reading skills, it will take some time, but I'll get it eventually.


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

Touché :beer:


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## thesilversurferII (Sep 26, 2012)

rottenspam said:


> I've owned cars with both engines. I had a 2008 Jetta Woldfsburg with the 2.0T FSI engine. I currently drive a 2011 GTI with the TSI engine. My brother also owns an 06 FSI engine. I can't say the one or the other has been more reliable for me. Both of my cars had 0 problems with the engine. My brothers 06 FSI with 80K miles has only had a thermostat fail and a temperature sensor fail. My GFs 2.0 FSI has had zero issues as well.
> 
> However, both engines have some trouble spots that affect a minority of engines. Its hard to believe its only a few the way the webs blow a few peoples problems into something that all engines are doomed! But don't confuse a dozen people on a forum with reporting they have a problem as a mass trouble spot on an engine. The cam follower issue and carbon build up are real issues on an FSI but 99.9% of folks aren't really impacted by either issue. You just hear a vocal minority making a lot of noise that all FSI's are doomed to failure.
> 
> ...


Hey Rotten the TSI engine uses a timing chain not belt,plus this engine is more tuner friendly than the fsi and is bulletproof. The only problem i have only heard of is the tension failing


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## Reallyslowrio (Oct 1, 2012)

thesilversurferII said:


> Hey Rotten the TSI engine uses a timing chain not belt,plus this engine is more tuner friendly than the fsi and is bulletproof. The only problem i have only heard of is the tension failing


Intake manifold flaps...


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## thesilversurferII (Sep 26, 2012)

Yea that too,Just had my intake replaced under Warranty


Sent from the Central Volkswagen Intelligence Agency


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## donjuan1jr (Oct 8, 2008)

We get alot of low mileage tsi issues, intake manifolds, waterpumps and pcv to name the most common. 

Matter fact, just in the last two weeks, i think weve done 6-8 failed tsi hpfps. 

Its all the same, ill get paid to fix em.


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## dbreen (Jun 24, 2013)

*Broken valve spring*

hopefully this benefits others if they happen to get engine mis-fire. not sure if this is a common problem with the TSI engine. FYI. both intake valves on cylinder #1 had to be replaced due to valve spring failure - broke in two. originally i thought it might be just a coil as my scan showed p0300 code. swapped coils and misfire remained. changed spark plugs and still the same. at that point i had the unit towed to dealer as it was still under warranty. compression test found no compression on cyl #1 so they performed a leak down test that showed lose out intake valve. intake was removed and 1 intake valve was not shut. luckily no damage to piston or cylinder head. both my tuner and the dealer were surprised of the failure. common?


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## genixia (Feb 8, 2002)

Rod Ratio said:


> There were no issues. There was a supposed 'sludge issue' in the early 1.8T's, but it turned out to be caused by guys running Dino oil in a turbo engine. Push Dino oil through a glowing turbo, and what do you think is going to happen?
> 
> The other supposed issue was coil pack failures. Those are attributed again to improper maintenance. Running too big of a plug gap is the root cause of that supposed issue.


Nothing "supposed" about it for anyone who ate a $1k+ bill to clean out that sludge as I did. If by 'guys' you meant everybody that followed VWoA's lubrication schedule prior to them finally changing it circa '03 including their own service guys, then sure, it was caused by 'guys'. Even after VWoA changed to synthetic in later model years, they still tried to put dino in the earlier engines, including one that I know for a fact had been previously sludged and had a note on file to only put synthetic in. Yes, I was pissed and made them redo that change. 

My point is this; You can't disregard problems caused by VW/VWoA policies even when you disagree with those policies for valid technical reasons. Those problems are real because the vast majority of drivers trust VW/VWoA to set appropriate policies and trust dealerships to follow them during maintenance.

The coilpack issue was very real too, and not caused by bad maintenance. As an AWD engine driver I was lucky enough to not get the bad coilpacks, but up here in the north-east the winters of 2002/2003 were a boon to tow truck drivers. I spoke with one who recalled having towed eight VW cars with a 1.8t engine in one day. Sure the fix was easy and low cost compared to a bottom end detonation, but people were still hurting. I read (here on vortex) of people being told that they'd have to wait for a week or two for their cars because VW could not make replacement coilpacks fast enough to meet the demand caused by all the failures. They were not caused by bad maintenance - most of these cars were under 40k miles and hadn't had plug maintenance yet. They were caused by a running change to the coilpacks between AWD and AWW engines - the newer ones did not deal with the cold weather up here. The fix wasn't regapping plugs - it was a new revision of the coil pack.

I do agree that there was no major issue with the 1.8T that only got fixed by the aftermarket though. 

Other weaknesses of the 1.8T were similar to the 2.0T FSI - water pumps, belt-driven timing ($$$ to maintain), PCV system. No HPFP to fail. There was a lot of early concern about MAF failures causing bad fueling ratios. The internals were bulletproof though.


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## donjuan1jr (Oct 8, 2008)

dbreen said:


> hopefully this benefits others if they happen to get engine mis-fire. not sure if this is a common problem with the TSI engine. FYI. both intake valves on cylinder #1 had to be replaced due to valve spring failure - broke in two. originally i thought it might be just a coil as my scan showed p0300 code. swapped coils and misfire remained. changed spark plugs and still the same. at that point i had the unit towed to dealer as it was still under warranty. compression test found no compression on cyl #1 so they performed a leak down test that showed lose out intake valve. intake was removed and 1 intake valve was not shut. luckily no damage to piston or cylinder head. both my tuner and the dealer were surprised of the failure. common?


Yep common too, love the tsi motors when they sound like a wrx. 

Another common is cyl 4 main cap bolt breaking.


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