# why 150hp now down from 170hp stock?



## rabbitwolf (Jun 10, 2014)

Why did the hp decrease by twenty in later gens?


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## Gunbu (Jan 12, 2012)

I think you have it backwards. In 2008 the hp increased to 170.


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## rabbitwolf (Jun 10, 2014)

*is it true?*

Right so the earlier models had 150hp. Then increased to 170hp. Why, and is it just a software issue/increase? Seems to be a hesitant of information for products selling to the exact s/s hardware.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

It is just a software change.


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## karlsvw (Oct 25, 2014)

I actually wondered this myself. Was there a physical change to the blueprints or was it all electronic? If electronic, what are the differences? How far can you truly go? Another 20 hp??


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## rabbitwolf (Jun 10, 2014)

*no*

Why though do it all? I have 20 more from a feel oil change. :wave:


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## vr6-kamil (Sep 14, 2008)

Well doesn't the earlier 2.5L rev lower at like 5500RPM compared to 6200? I've never heard a question asked like that before all backward 150 down from 170 vs 150 going up to 170 as naturally car will get more powerful


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

rabbitwolf said:


> Why though do it all? I have 20 more from a feel oil change. :wave:


If an updated tune can make more power why wouldnt they. The tune is the only difference. If you put an after market tune on a stock 150hp motor vs a stock 170hp motor the end result will be the same. 

And you most definitely do not get 20hp from an oil change.


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## karlsvw (Oct 25, 2014)

I always knew VW left a bunch on the table with the 2.5. I know the head is capable of allowing it to obtain the magic 100 hp/Liter mark. But, the lower compression and a few other bits and pieces make that difficult. I still feel 190 hp or so is still obtainable with "bolt ons" and a tune.

I have made a custom CAI for mine and exhaust work is coming. My "seat of the pants" feel on that alone is that I can't feel the difference. The noise is cool however.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

karlsvw said:


> I always knew VW left a bunch on the table with the 2.5. I know the head is capable of allowing it to obtain the magic 100 hp/Liter mark. But, the lower compression and a few other bits and pieces make that difficult. I still feel 190 hp or so is still obtainable with "bolt ons" and a tune.
> 
> I have made a custom CAI for mine and exhaust work is coming. My "seat of the pants" feel on that alone is that I can't feel the difference. The noise is cool however.


200+ is attainable with bolt ons.... SRI bolts on and that paired with intake, exhaust and tune will give you 200+hp


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## rabbitwolf (Jun 10, 2014)

*lets not deviate*

I have 150 and it revs at 6200. An. Integrated engineering intake manifold and their software gets you plus 48.5hp with a manual that beats the 6200 Rev I have but can not make with my automatic transmission. Dude


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## karlsvw (Oct 25, 2014)

mldouthi said:


> 200+ is attainable with bolt ons.... SRI bolts on and that paired with intake, exhaust and tune will give you 200+hp


:thumbup:


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

per nitroscope, these were the revisions starting with the 08+:

Flywheel
Intake manifold
Intake airbox
Software
Valve seals
Cam adjuster
Cam chains
new quad core cpu ECM

so it's more than just software.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

le0n said:


> per nitroscope, these were the revisions starting with the 08+:
> 
> Flywheel
> Intake manifold
> ...



Im not sure what/who nitroscope is but, I know several of these didnt change. 
I also know that a "150hp" car with a tune make the same power as a "170hp" car with the same tune. So if hardware changes like the timing chains and guides were made they werent for performance, but longevity.


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## karlsvw (Oct 25, 2014)

The intake probably had a small change in HP. The software had the biggest effect. I doubt the intake upped the power more than 5 HP. The rest of the stuff was for longevity. The 2.5 is basically bullet proof now.


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## seanmcd72 (May 14, 2008)

mldouthi said:


> Im not sure what/who nitroscope is but, I know several of these didnt change.
> I also know that a "150hp" car with a tune make the same power as a "170hp" car with the same tune. So if hardware changes like the timing chains and guides were made they werent for performance, but longevity.



Nitroscope is (or was, haven't paid attention in a few years) a VW dealer mechanic that has contributed a ton to the 2.5 scene. If he said it, it was accurate. I also remember it being an intake and software change.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

seanmcd72 said:


> I also remember it being an intake and software change.


Same here, the difference between the intake manifolds being shorter intake runner length.

I made the image below because I've seen the same question asked without definitive answers being given (I've seen answers, but people tend still question this one detail). Anyway, I can see how this can be easily overlooked or questioned, they look damn near identical from the top-side when bolted to the engine. When looking at the bottom of the manifold the change is noticeable, looking into the plenum thru the throttle body inlet the change becomes more obvious with the bellmouths being on opposite sides of the plenum.


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## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

billyVR6 said:


> Same here, the difference between the intake manifolds being shorter intake runner length. ...


Awesome comparison picture! I knew the manifold had changed, but I never compared the two side-by-side.

I would like to contribute by saying that the late-2010+ 2.5l also had a different exhaust manifold. Early BGQ/BGP 2.5l used part # 07K-253-031-*H* whereas the late CBTA/CBUA 2.5l used part # 07K-253-031-*M*. 


Here is an example of the _early_ 2.5l exhaust manifold:









Here is an example of the _late _2.5l exhaust manifold:


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

These are changes to the platform over the years but not necessarily from 150hp version to 170hp version... For example. I have a 150hp version motor sitting in my shop with the same intake and exhaust manifold as my other 2 rabbits (07 and 08, 170hp versions).
The exhaust manifold was changed from Mkv gen to Mkvi.


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## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

mldouthi said:


> These are changes to the platform over the years but not necessarily from 150hp version to 170hp version... For example. I have a 150hp version motor sitting in my shop with the same intake and exhaust manifold as my other 2 rabbits (07 and 08, 170hp versions).
> The exhaust manifold was changed from Mkv gen to Mkvi.


True, the exhaust manifold change came after the 150hp to 170hp change so it's irrelevant to this discussion.

However, according to ETKA, the intake manifold redesign _did _occur when the horsepower was bumped to 170hp.

Here are the intake manifold part numbers:
2005.5-2007 2.5l part # 07K-133-201-*J* (long runners)
2008-2014 2.5l part # 07K-133-201-*K* (short runners, with SAI)
2010-2014 2.5l part # 07K-133-201-*M* (short runners, without SAI)


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

mldouthi said:


> These are changes to the platform over the years but not necessarily from 150hp version to 170hp version... For example. I have a 150hp version motor sitting in my shop with the same intake and exhaust manifold as my other 2 rabbits (07 and 08, 170hp versions).
> The exhaust manifold was changed from Mkv gen to Mkvi.


There's no question about the exhaust manifolds.

As for the intake, are you sure it's original to the engine and know the history behind it? The reason for asking is because the plastic intakes being easily broken and very common to crack from minor front end accidents. It's open to speculation and question if that engine came from a recycler or yard. Anyway, the difference in runner length is drastic, swap the two and sure the car will run and drive... but perform the same? No, I don't think so.

I foresee a back-to-back dyno somewhere in the future, maybe.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

kölsch said:


> True, the exhaust manifold change came after the 150hp to 170hp change so it's irrelevant to this discussion.
> 
> However, according to ETKA, the intake manifold redesign _did _occur when the horsepower was bumped to 170hp.
> 
> ...





billyVR6 said:


> There's no question about the exhaust manifolds.
> 
> As for the intake, are you sure it's original to the engine and know the history behind it? The reason for asking is because the plastic intakes being easily broken and very common to crack from minor front end accidents. It's open to speculation and question if that engine came from a recycler or yard. Anyway, the difference in runner length is drastic, swap the two and sure the car will run and drive... but perform the same? No, I don't think so.
> 
> I foresee a back-to-back dyno somewhere in the future, maybe.


Strange. The motor I bought from a 06, I cant say if the intake was changed but the intake was cracked when I got it (Had the shorter runners though, same as my 08). But I know the 07 rabbit I have that is completely stock has the same intake as my 08 rabbit as I was good friends with the original owner and the car was never wrecked and was kept stock. 

And I very much agree with that big of a runner length difference they would perform very different.


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