# 1.8T T3/T04 60-1.



## Tybolltt (Sep 13, 2001)

Where can I expect a t3/t04 60-1 with a .48a/r spool?


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: 1.8T T3/T04 60-1. (Tybolltt)*

I'm guessing with a stage 3-5 turbine wheel?
Sorry, no answer for you.


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## FrankiEBoneZ (Jun 4, 2002)

*Re: 1.8T T3/T04 60-1. (Tybolltt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tybolltt* »_Where can I expect a t3/t04 60-1 with a .48a/r spool? 

Not being a d!ck, but that is WAY to big IMO. Unless you have some major goals. 
A GT30R or a T3T4 50 trim, .48/.60 is a perfect size. Add a stage 5 wheel and BB, and you'll have a turbo capable of 400WHP.


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## TheSaint (Jan 29, 2002)

*Re: 1.8T T3/T04 60-1. (FrankiEBoneZ)*

A T3/T4 50-57 trim will do fine, stage3 turbine wheel will also be capable of 400whp


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## Tybolltt (Sep 13, 2001)

On pump gas?


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## SvenRasta (Nov 16, 2002)

*Re: 1.8T T3/T04 60-1. (TheSaint)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TheSaint* »_A T3/T4 50-57 trim will do fine, stage3 turbine wheel will also be capable of 400whp
 I'd do stage 3 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## DISTURBO (Apr 15, 2003)

I have a t3t4 57 trim and 63ar and I made [email protected] on my 1.8t


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (Tybolltt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tybolltt* »_On pump gas? 

No, but the turbo will get you that hp.


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## GTI2lo (Dec 19, 1999)

*Re: (DISTURBO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DISTURBO* »_I have a t3t4 57 trim and 63ar and I made [email protected] on my 1.8t

Nice hp figures. I saw your car go down the track and seems to go strong. You just have to get out of the hoel better.


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## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

*Re: (GTI2lo)*

yeah that turbo is way too big


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## Tybolltt (Sep 13, 2001)

*Re: (turbodub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *turbodub* »_yeah that turbo is way too big









Did I lead you to believe that this was a street application, or tell you what the goals were? Not to be a *****, but you have no idea why I would want to look into this turbo, so why be frustrated, or show frustration? 
As things turn out it is too big, but could very easily work out if my goals were higher by maybe 50whp. 
Do you have something constructive to add? Like what turbo would be good for 400wheel on pump?


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: 1.8T T3/T04 60-1. (Tybolltt)*

a stage 5 .48 should spool around late 3k... fine for big goals on 4cyl

I don't like the 60-1 compressor for this engine, as you'll need to
run high boost. meaning this compressor is 'happier' (more effiecient)
when running 'low' boost and big flow (bigger engine
aka a VR6). 'low' boost ~18-20psi.
If you are wanting big power from a 1.8T then you'll need to be
running more boost than 18-20 psi.
Suggestion:
keep the turbine or goto a stage 3 for quicker spool.
Compressor: 57 or 60 trim TO4E.
Take a look at : http://www.precisionturbo.net/sportcompact.php
Precision Turbo. look at the SC-34,44,60 these are basically what I am talking
about.
Jeffrey Atwood



_Modified by Jefnes3 at 2:10 PM 9-8-2003_


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## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

*Re: (Tybolltt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tybolltt* »_
Did I lead you to believe that this was a street application, or tell you what the goals were? Not to be a *****, but you have no idea why I would want to look into this turbo, so why be frustrated, or show frustration? 
As things turn out it is too big, but could very easily work out if my goals were higher by maybe 50whp. 
Do you have something constructive to add? Like what turbo would be good for 400wheel on pump? 

Look buddy youre right i dont know if it s a street application, or what youre goals are. From what youve been writing maybe youd be better with a super 60 and leave the turbos that are too big for us 8 valve guys who like turbo lag and like to make real power!


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (Tybolltt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tybolltt* »_
Did I lead you to believe that this was a street application, or tell you what the goals were? Not to be a *****, but you have no idea why I would want to look into this turbo, so why be frustrated, or show frustration? 
As things turn out it is too big, but could very easily work out if my goals were higher by maybe 50whp. 
Do you have something constructive to add? Like what turbo would be good for 400wheel on pump? 

Todd aka turbodub put down 275whp on the turbo that you speak of, that's why he's saying that it's too big


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (killa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_
Todd aka turbodub put down 275whp on the turbo that you speak of, that's why he's saying that it's too big









What 'stopped' him at 275whp?
Small injetcors, 'stock' engine parts, just curious.
Jeffrey Atwood


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_
What 'stopped' him at 275whp?
Small injetcors, 'stock' engine parts, just curious.
Jeffrey Atwood

Jeff, wouldnt know, but if i had to guess i'd say tuning since turbodub didnt have the car tuned for that turbo.


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## Tybolltt (Sep 13, 2001)

okay, now this thread is cracking. 
turbodub: where do you think a 57trim stage V with a .48 a/r would spool? 
Dual Ball bearing, or single. 
that 60-1 would likely produce 450whp on pump at very little boost, maybe 15. 
What do you think of this one? 
Hey guys, I don't mind downshifting, I actually like to do it so true lag by definition doesn't bother me albeit a slow car does. The 4.24 helps me here. 
Thank you gentlemen, and I apologize if I came off as a dick, I'm just looking for some insight.


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (Tybolltt)*

Um, I think you're getting confused with CFM and PSI.
If you run a downright enormous turbo @ the same PSI as the smaller one, you'll get the same power, as long as the small one is not out of its efficiency range.
ie : a 60-1 will not make more power than a 57 trim if both are at 15 psi.


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## Tybolltt (Sep 13, 2001)

Then why did Billys E50 get him 300+ at 20lbs and my k03 made less than 200 at the same boost?


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## Speedy G (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: (Tybolltt)*

You should care at what rpm boost is made. Billy and APR ran with 20psi at redline.
Speedy G


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## Tybolltt (Sep 13, 2001)

*Re: (Tybolltt)*

Billy got full boost at 4.5k rpms or around there, so he ran 20psi till redline from there.


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## Speedy G (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: (Tybolltt)*

The K03 sport runs less than 12psi at redline, but it makes way more torque at 3krpm, where it makes max boost.
Speedy G


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## Tybolltt (Sep 13, 2001)

So what would all of you consider the best turbo and for what reasons?


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (Tybolltt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tybolltt* »_Then why did Billys E50 get him 300+ at 20lbs and my k03 made less than 200 at the same boost? 

Because even if the K03 compressor is good for 20 psi (it's not), the turbine is insanely small. People always look at the compressor and don't give a **** about the exhaust. If the turbine is too small, it doesn't matter how efficient the compressor is, that turbine will never allow the engine to use that compressor. As far as I'm concerned, the K03 is like a potatoe in the tailpipe.
Oh, and billy was one of the first to play with large exhaust wheels on the 1.8T. I think this is the missing element that everyone has failed to notice. He ran a stage 5 wheel with a .48 A/R housing. That's a BIIIIIIIIG difference from the K03.
Turbines are important too.
Why would Turbonetics, Garrett, ITS or Precision even team a T04 60 trim compressor with a T3 stage 1 .48 turbine? I have no idea.


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## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_
What 'stopped' him at 275whp?
Small injetcors, 'stock' engine parts, just curious.
Jeffrey Atwood

only thing that stopped me from geting more is that its a stock 8v motor. And since you guys dont understand sarcasm ill lay it flat out, the turbo would propably rock on a 20v!!!!!


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## Speedy G (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: (turbodub)*

3 Comments:
1) The 60-1 is not the best for the 1.8t because it is not efficient at high boost. It's good for large engines that need a turbo that flows a lot of air but don't need boost higher than 20psi. For serious power, you need a ton of boost on a 1.8T. Efficiency is key, otherwise you'll need a big intercooler, and get detonation more easily. A tale of 2 similar flowing turbos:
A) T3 S60 at 20psi to redline is at the top of its high efficiency range, which is only 74%.
B) A T3/T4 E 40 trim at 20psi to redline is in the middle of it's high efficiency range at 78%. This means it needs less intercooling. Also, with the T3/T4, you could run 25 psi at 4.5krpm to increase your torque and still be in the efficiency sweet spot. You could even go up to almost 29psi to get your torque and still be as efficient as the T3 super 60 in its sweet spot.

2) Given my comment above, I think the best turbos for the 1.8t are turbos that are efficient in high boost and flow a lot. The turbos that come to mind are the T3/T4E, a GT25 or GT30 or pretty much anything that spool up quickly but have high efficiency under tons of boost.
3) The turbine choice comes into play in the spoolup and max HP nearing redline. Why? Well, the smaller the turbine, the faster the turbo will spool up. However, there's a catch. After the turbo is spooled up, the turbine becomes a restriction in the exhaust, the volumetric efficiency goes down, and you actually lose HP due to the turbine. So the math here is get the biggest turbine or turbine housing that you can live with in terms of spoolup. A stage V turbine in a .48 A/R housing spools slightly before a .63 A/R stage I turbine. However, the .63 A/R housing allows for a bit more HP up top if your turbo is getting restricted by the turbine size. For 300whp a standard turbine is good in a .48A/R housing. Billy did 404whp on a stage V turbine in a .48A/R and his spoolup was still ok, but the turbo was ball bearing.
Speedy G


_Modified by Speedy G at 12:36 PM 9-9-2003_


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## Tybolltt (Sep 13, 2001)

*Re: (Speedy G)*

Schimmel ran 34lbs out of this turbo 6 years ago.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (Tybolltt)*

I agree with what speedy G said but would like to add that a bigger turbine wheel will get rid of backpressure better than a slightly bigger turbine housing.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Tybolltt (Sep 13, 2001)

*Re: (Tybolltt)*

I just looked at the maps and the 60-1 looks efficient starting at 26psi, all the way to 42lbs. 
The E50 looks good from 18-35ish. 
The T04B V1 V2 looks efficient from 18-37ish. 
To me it looks like anyone of these turbos would do fine.
In going from a B to an E wheel what was the major differences or benefits? Turbonetics told me that the only benefit was to increase high RPM efficiency. 
Pardon the redundance gentlemen, believe you me I really appreciate all of this.


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## Speedy G (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: (Tybolltt)*

I believe you're reading the compressor table wrong. The pressure on the y axis includes atmospheric pressure. It's not 1 bar at the bottom, that's a 1/1 ratio of post over pre-turbo pressures. A pressure ratio of 2 is only 14.5 psi of boost before the intercooler and piping pressure drop. Just take away 14.5 from each of the numbers you just wrote, and you'll get the right numbers.
Also, the B compressors are an older design than the E compressors. The E compressors are more efficient and can handle more boost. You save on intercooler needs if high boost is needed with an E compressor. The way I think about it, B compressors are flatter, and E compressors are taller. If you only need 15psi a B compressor is fine. That's why Honda guys use B compressors. We need much more boost than they do because the unboosted 1.8T is not as powerful as an unboosted GSR engine. A GSR engine (190hp?) with 15psi doubles it's power to 360, we only double our power to 200 (approximation).
Speedy G


_Modified by Speedy G at 5:43 PM 9-9-2003_


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## BillyT. (Apr 17, 2003)

*Re: 1.8T T3/T04 60-1. (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_a stage 5 .48 should spool around late 3k... fine for big goals on 4cyl

No way...
My dual BB stage 5 .48 with a 50 trim comp lit up about 4800 rpm.
But you are spot on that the 60-1 isn't a good wheel for the 20V, your logic is spot on as well.
Oh yeah, don't run a 57 or 60 trim on a 1.8t. It will surge. I know of thre cars that had surging probelms with the 57, mine included, and one that has the same problem with a 60...
And FWIW, I am running a 60 trim from precision right now(not 100%, but looks to be the SC-44), stage 3 wheel with a .63 a/r. Car makes no real torque at 19 psi, about 221ft/lbs at the wheels, peaking about 6000 rpm. Full boost by 5200. It feels pretty good since the car is so light, but by no means am I in love with it.


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## BillyT. (Apr 17, 2003)

*Re: 1.8T T3/T04 60-1. (BillyT.)*

If you ask me, the best all around wheel is the E50.
I actually made 410 wheel at 26.5 psi on a fresh motor. The wheel is good for 32-33. Going from 23.5 to 26.5 got me about 35-40hp at the wheels, I'd love to run one at 30-32 psi, probably good for about 450 wheel.
On pump, I was making about 340 wheel, at 22 psi.
If i get my way, I will be selling this Precision turbo and going back to a 50 trim from ITS, probably identicale to the last turbo, but I won't spring for the dual BB. too much money, not enough benefit.


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## Speedy G (Apr 1, 2002)

*Re: 1.8T T3/T04 60-1. (BillyT.)*

Billy have you looked into the GT series? I'm thinking the GT25/40R from ATP could be interesting. It's only like 1000 bucks, so it could be cheaper than a 50 trim single BB. I wonder if it would surge like the 57 trim that you mentioned.
Speedy G


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## BillyT. (Apr 17, 2003)

*Re: 1.8T T3/T04 60-1. (Speedy G)*

At this point, I am afraid to try anything new.
The GT turbos do look sick on paper, no doubt about it, but I was so happy with that E50, I can't think of why I would want to run anything else, at least on a street car.
I may even run a non BB 50 trim, anything will be better than what I have currently. And I can get the non BB for 550 bucks...


_Modified by BillyT. at 11:39 PM 9-9-2003_


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: 1.8T T3/T04 60-1. (BillyT.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BillyT.* »_
No way...
My dual BB stage 5 .48 with a 50 trim comp lit up about 4800 rpm.
But you are spot on that the 60-1 isn't a good wheel for the 20V, your logic is spot on as well.
Oh yeah, don't run a 57 or 60 trim on a 1.8t. It will surge. I know of thre cars that had surging probelms with the 57, mine included, and one that has the same problem with a 60...


I guess I was just too optimistic about the flow capabilities of the VW 20V 1.8T.
If you are surging then the head just isn't flowing enough..... 
the turbine/housing choice is too small (spools too early)
or the compressor too big

NON-VW stuff:
This is what makes Hondas NICE. (getting flame suit ready) 
Those bastards flow like a mutha...
They would never consider a .48 on anything runing over ~12psi.
There are guys using SC61 turbos... (I though it was crazy too until I saw the
dyno chart.... spool ~6500 Net over 500whp) (usless, but neat non the less)
Jeffrey Atwood


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## BillyT. (Apr 17, 2003)

*Re: 1.8T T3/T04 60-1. (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_
I guess I was just too optimistic about the flow capabilities of the VW 20V 1.8T.


On paper, or even on a bench, it flows great. The big problem lies in the cams. you just can't get enough lift to flow the air at low rpm that a big turbo moves, the buckets are just too small. That is why the motor likes small turbos and lots of boost. Contrary to what most people think, the biggest advantage of 5 valves per cylinder is that you can move alot of air at a small amount of lift, thus creating potentially more torque across a broader range of RPM, which the stock motor does beautifully. Unfortunately, this design doesn't really lend itself to make huge amounts of horsepower with a big turbo at a low boost level.
FWIW, it isn't so much the head on this motor that makes me like it, if it only had 16Vs, I would be just as excited. The thing I like is the stoutness of the entire package... aren't too many VW motors that will take 30 pounds of boost and produce over 450 whp without so much as cracking open the valve cover.
The surging isn't so much that the head won't flow, it's just that it doesn't have the right flow characteristics at a certian RPM, but like I said, that is mostly the fault of the cams.


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## Tybolltt (Sep 13, 2001)

*Re: 1.8T T3/T04 60-1. (BillyT.)*

I wasn't aware that ITS even made non-ball bearing turbos or single ball bearing systems. 
So the conclusion to this is that a medium to large size turbo run at higher than other boost levels is best for a 1.8t, and that is because the head won't flow enough with the cams it comes with. 
Right?


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## BillyT. (Apr 17, 2003)

*Re: 1.8T T3/T04 60-1. (Tybolltt)*

Yes. 
I know everyone wants to make big numbers on pump gas, but I don't think this motor is gonna do it.
Boost and octane, and while your at it, you might as well run some timing.


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## Tybolltt (Sep 13, 2001)

hahahaha


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