# Questions on new clutch set-up with single mass flywheel.



## QuattroFourLife (Jul 5, 2013)

Hey there guys, I just did my 2.0 stroker build and purchased a Southbend stage 2 endurance clutch and single mass flywheel. I have an extremely loud chatter. Everything I read has said the chatter would not be very loud or bad.. It's so bad that I am debating taking it out also notice some serious vibration throughout all rps while accelerating and letting of the gas... Do you think something is wrong or is this common with the lightweight flywheel? As soon as I push the clutch in the noise stops... But I also feel like I can hear the sound at 2000-3000 rps in gear... The clutch kit is used but was told it was low miles and everything looked fantastic! Car was totaled and at a shop snagged the clutch for a great deal. Not sure if I should just buy a brand new kit or try a fluidamper and hope for the best.... Thought and ideas thanks so much guys!


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## sweetinsanityTT (Apr 28, 2008)

I have a stage 3+ Clutch Masters with a single mass fly wheel and i get chatter while at idle. Heard its pretty normal for our setups. I dont get any vibration though so you may want to get that looked at.


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## QuattroFourLife (Jul 5, 2013)

Yeah it's so bad that I would think no company would ever produce anything that loud...


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## sweetinsanityTT (Apr 28, 2008)

Well how bad is bad. I hear mine at idle but its not incredibly loud


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## QuattroFourLife (Jul 5, 2013)

Mine is intermittently loud... I can definitely hear it in the cabin. It sounds broken to be honest but it's perfectly quite if I push the clutch in... I'll take a video tomorrow.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Raise your idle and increase idle torque via Lemmiwinks/Unisettings and you can eliminate most of the chatter with some trial and error. The chatter has nothing to do with vibrations while in gear at speed, so you have something else going on.


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## QuattroFourLife (Jul 5, 2013)

Ok I did some reading and some people mentioned that it could be the 02m transmission shaft bearing ... Sound feasible to you? 


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## QuattroFourLife (Jul 5, 2013)

Ok this is the sound there is just no way that this is "flywheel chatter".... When the noise stops in the video it's because the clutch is pushed in btw...

http://youtu.be/ex9UlJoSQT4




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## crazybohunk (May 24, 2011)

*single mass flywheel noise.*

Hi there,

Yup sounds familiar.

Push in the clutch pedal while out of gear and running & it will go silent.

If if does then is this is clatter.

On acceleration you won't hear it. when you back off of the accelerator you will again.

When its cold it will usually be a lot quieter. When it heats up you can hear it a lot more.

This is from experience of using a Clutchmasters FX400 6 puck single mass clutch.

I also put in a fluid damper & no real change.

So the clutch works well and launches hard but there is a little irritating noise.

Adjusting the idle might help. I have not tried that but while driving you still might hear it when you back off.

Randy.


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## Chuckmeister87 (Nov 10, 2009)

I've got the Southbend Stage 3 Daily clutch and single mass flywheel. No chatter. Easy as butter to drive. Still breaking in the clutch so I'm driving like a grandma.

Call Southbend and ask them if there should be a lot of chatter with a Stage 2 Endurance. That's your best bet :thumbup:


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## QuattroFourLife (Jul 5, 2013)

Yeah I know that there should be no chatter or at least not like it is in the video now I am wondering what the noise is... Anyone have the shaft bearing go out...? Or any have a clutch disk not properly aligned? 


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Yeah that has a deeper tone to it than FW clutch chatter. Post that over in the R32 forum and see what they have to say. I thought only R32 02Ms have the pilot bearing that you mentioned earlier, but could be wrong. Either way, they know more about 02Ms than the 1.8T crowd.


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## QuattroFourLife (Jul 5, 2013)

Thanks man!


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

That's pretty much what my cars sound like with a LWFW. The 02m makes some nasty noises.

I've replaced the bearing your talking about on my friends 02M. It's not a terrible job & this is an easy trans case to open up, but I think Adam's right- it's an R32 02M specific part. I'm pretty sure your noise is just normal chatter.


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## QuattroFourLife (Jul 5, 2013)

No kidding well that's good info to have everyone made it sound like the chatter is so quite and not bothersome at all... 


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## toy4two2 (Feb 6, 2012)

i try to warn everyone on here not to put a single mass flywheel in. Mine was so bad I sold the car. good luck.


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## sweetinsanityTT (Apr 28, 2008)

Sounds like mine as well. Youll get used to it:beer:


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

toy4two2 said:


> i try to warn everyone on here not to put a single mass flywheel in. Mine was so bad I sold the car. good luck.


I'm putting a DMF back in my Audi A4 because of the same reason. Put a Fidanza 9 lb Aluminium flywheel in for Autocross. Worked great for that, but I will have another car for Autocross soon and the ALUMFW is a PITA as a daily driver.

Gear clatter is not too bad on the 01A ( but it is definitely noticeable. Sounds like a Diesel in summer ) ... and there is a lot more vibration and harmonics on the Freeway with the ALUMFW compared to the DMF.


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## Neb (Jan 25, 2005)

Yup that's what mine sounds like too. Hate it but not worth dropping and swapping back to DMFW.


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## QuattroFourLife (Jul 5, 2013)

Hey guys I have an update... I pulled my trans off cause I was not happy about things were working... I noticed one major thing! The car is a 2.0 stroker and the block came out of an a4 I noticed the block has a pilot bearing in it! My TT did not I read that the TT should not have this and the a4 does my question is do you think this was a big factor in the sound I was hearing!?












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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Nope. Wouldn't cause any problems at all. Longitudinal engines like the A4 have a transmission input shaft that engages that pilot bearing. Tranverse engine have a shorter Input shaft and don't engage that bearing.

Edit: Tranverse engines make more gear " clatter " than a Longitudinal tranny when a LWFW is used. A Longitudinal tranny has more mass to the internal components ( gears, layshaft, mainshaft ) and this tends to dampen the resonant frequencies better.

A DMFW is a very ingenious device. It does it job very well. And it's job is to dampen torsional vibrations. LUK ( part of the Schaeffler corporation ) developed and patented the DMFW back in the early 1980's. Nearly every manufacturer uses a DMFW these days because of it's superior reduction in Noise, Vibration and Harmonics compared to a SMFW.


There are tradeoffs that are made when you install a LWFW. You have to decide if you can live with those trade offs ( more NVH ) on a daily basis.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

BTW... a 2.0 l stroker is going to have more Secondary vibration than a 1.8T. You may want to re-install the DMFW if you can't stand the clatter noise.


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## QuattroFourLife (Jul 5, 2013)

Thanks so much for the info! I think I am just going to put a dmfw back in and sell this clutch set up.... 


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

The following is my replay from a thread where I was discussing the Pro's and Cons of DMFW's on a Nissan G37 thread. Some interesting technical information in the links: 

_A few other things to discuss.

1: Dual Mass Flywheel. I would be very, very cautious about replacing this with a Single Mass ( Lightweight Flywheel ). Most modern engines no longer use front mounted Crankshaft Dampners, but rather a DMF to control crankshaft harmonics. Changing to a lighter SMF significantly increases NVH and can change a nice comfortable and quite cruising GT car into something that you will quickly grow tired of with the extra vibrations, droning and and possible increased shift effort.

Contrary the report in the previous magazine. DMF make shifting EASIER on the synchros by absorbing the torque spikes when shifting. And V6 engines need crankshaft dampening much more than an Inlne 4... which has balanced Primary harmonics. I would be very, very cautious about replacing the Factory DMF with a SMF. Do some research on DMF by LUK and Sachs, and it quickly becomes obvious what the advantages are.

I think that most of the Lazy throttle feeling is due to not completing the TBA and possibly also the ECU Throttle Mapping.

Personal experience. I switched my Audi A4 Quattro 1.8Turbo from the factory DMF ( approx 25 lbs ) for a 9.5 lb Aluminium flywheel. Yes the engine revs quicker and double clutches quicker. Great for Autocross. But the day to day PITA issues of more noise from transmission ( gear clatter when warm at idle), MUCH more engine vibration and noise ( particularly on freeway ), reduced synchro life and shift quality, reduced clutch life due to having to slip the clutch more from starts and especially on hills makes this one modification I would never again do to a Luxury or Sports car. Unfortunately I tossed the old DMF. I'm kicking myself over that. If I keep the Audi I will be installing a new DMF in the Spring. The lightweight aluminum SMF is such a pain for Daily Driving...

People also forget that the overall mass of a DMF can actually be less than that of a older design Front Dampener and Single Mass Flywheel because a DMF does not usually require a front dampener, or if it does, the front dampener can have much less mass.

DMF were developed for Passenger cars back in the mid-1980's. Most European and Japanese manufacturers now incorporate this design into every vehicle they produce. Here are a couple of Engineering articles showing the advantages of DMF's over standard designs. Interesting is the increase in Fuel Economy by using DMF's:

http://www.schaeffler.com/remotemed...sia_1/downloads_11/1_dual_mass_flywheel_1.pdf

http://www.schaeffler.com/remotemed...effler_2/symposia_1/downloads_11/4_DMFW_1.pdf

More links:

http://www.amsautomotive.com/dual-mass-flywheels

http://www.sachsperformance.com/product_info.php?language=en&products_id=459 _


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

QuattroFourLife said:


> Thanks so much for the info! I think I am just going to put a dmfw back in and sell this clutch set up....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The SB clutch is a good piece, you just need a different clutch disc ( non sprung ) for the DMFW than a SMFW.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

... and to reinforce what Richard is saying about the cons of running a SMF on our cars, Adam and I debated it in this thread. I'm also a firm believer of using a DMFW.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5895574-Time-for-a-new-clutch&highlight=Dmfw


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

And DMFW are coming down in price as Max has already mentioned. 

OEM LUK DMFW for my Audi A4 was only $165 from Rock Auto. OEM LUK DMFW for 2002 Audi $189 from Rock Auto. And there is cheaper if you look hard enough.... :thumbup:

Another interesting thing about DMFW is the supposed inability to re-use them if they have to be machined. According to my engine builder this is not quite true and they have been re-surfacing DMFW's ( mostly big diesels ) for decades. They have done some re-surfacing on passenger car European and Japanese DMFW's in the past. 

VW/Audi DMFW' can be re-surfaced as long as a minimal amount is removed. .010" is usually no problem. There are a couple of caveats though.

1: The flywheel should be Blanchard ground, lots of coolant used and heat kept to a minimum. That means fine cuts. Because of the " Raised Leg " design VW/Audi clutch extreme care must be exercised when using a Blanchard grinder. A small head diameter Blanchard grinder must be used. Not all machine shops have these. ( A skilled machinist can use a big swing Lathe for removal of small amounts. )

2: Whatever material depth is removed from the flywheel surface, must be removed from the mounting legs. Otherwise your clutch diaphragm load pressure will be decreased. To a skilled machinist not a big deal..but time is $$. 

However, with the recent reduction in prices of DMFW's, the extra labor involved doesn't add up any more. When you were looking at $700 to $1,200 for a European DMFW, a $250 labour cost is not a big deal. When you can buy a new DMFW for under $300 ( under $200 in our case ) there is just no point.


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