# the turbo project blows up...



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

Literally. 
No compression in #2, white smoke blowing out of the crankcase breather and dipstick. White smoke coming out of the back of the motor. No oil in coolant, but low oil. 
Whoops


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## 2.OhhhGTI (Jan 26, 2003)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (2kjettaguy)*

Damn....that really bites....


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## xXx TURBO (Sep 13, 2002)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (2.OhhhGTI)*

that sucks







i know the feeling i blew #2 when i was spraying 2 years ago


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (xXx TURBO)*

I hate to say it,but I am going to say it,SDS and good tuning you would not be where you are right now,you know why?Because the SDS can PULL OUT TIMING UNDER BOOST(so can any stand alone)I kind of was waiting to see who the first person to blow one up with these units would be.........Sorry that happened,but THAT IS WHY I recommend SDS,I am boosting 20+psi no prob and no issues.You can only get so far with fuel enrichment,with SDS you can have 3bar map sensor and have overboost/rpm fuel cutout,and the SS unit only works within the parameters of the stock ECU, http://www.SDSEFI.com I HATE to see guys blow up when they had the info at their fingertips,and you even tuned it with a wideband,that is telling you either you overboosted,had too much lead,or your injectors could'nt flow what you were asking them to.Sorry to see that happen but I also think your small water to air IC was'nt doing anything for you that is why your motor met a very quick demise............ http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (SILVERADO)*

My neuspeed chip retards timing 25 degrees with throttle position. My intercooler was ice freaking cold last night. Ice. Its always cold. The thing works great.
You know what I think it was? That stupid supercharger I raped my motor with for 2 years. 14.7 under boost with that crap... it was only a matter of time


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## ALpHaMoNk_VW (Mar 26, 2001)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (SILVERADO)*

ouch sorry to hear that, was it doe to boost spike? what was the cause of the boom?


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (ALpHaMoNk_VW)*

we were tuning it. Air fuel ratio was 12.5 leaning slightly up top. Turned the boost up from 6 to ~9 and she gave out. Air fuel was fine, intercooler was so cold the water would be uncomfortable to drink. There was no big boom, it just started breaking up as if it was running too rich, then we pulled over and were trying to figure out why oil was all over the engine and it was running terrible. It was fast for about 30 seconds and I wasn't even driving.


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (2kjettaguy)*

Sorry but 25deg. timing on pump gas is still too much lead on stock compression and a small intercooler,I am running about 19 deg at 15psi total timing and that is with 8.5:1 comp and a huge intercooler,I am telling you that if you r motor ran fine before,a properly setup turbo would not damage it at all.If you rebuild it and keep same engine management I am afraid you may get the exact same results next time..........I should know I blew up 2 motors and 4 pistons being stubborn until I got the SDS here I am 13 sec. and 12,000,miles later,worth every penny!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (SILVERADO)*

yeh, learn the hard way. I've learned alot, may be done with this
thanks man http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_
You know what I think it was? That stupid supercharger I raped my motor with for 2 years. 14.7 under boost with that crap... it was only a matter of time

hummmm, i'd think the same too. Sorry about your motor bro, hope u bring it up back soon.


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## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (SILVERADO)*

that blows, literally


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (D Wiz)*

sorry dude, sucks, ive been there.
i would tend to agree with both silverrado and you.
sds IMHO is better than any piggy back, and just as/even more simple to use.
BUT....
the supercharger setup of 14.7:1 under boost with no intercooler is totally a factor in limiting the engine's life. live and learn man.....


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## GTIRACER2.0t (Aug 23, 2000)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (speed51133!)*

I totally agree with the SC doing the damage. Its made for 6psi. Its creates way too much heat after that. 9psi on stock internals should be no problem. I ran that for over year before turn the knob to 15psi with stock fueling and blew the motor.


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## Sandlock (Aug 10, 2001)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (2kjettaguy)*

sorry your car took a loss, evan. i just saw it this past sunday, and you were so optimistic with your tuning thus far! looked good too. Well, you took one for the team, we all have learned alot from your tooling around. If you did put an unusual amount of wear on the motor from previous setups, i wonder what condition anands car is in....


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## PARTY_BOY (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (Sandlock)*

Piggybacks dont blow up motors,people do.Its all in the hand of the tuner.SDS would not have helped him.Its human error.


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## vw16vcabby (Sep 19, 2001)

i'm w/ party boy. besides- EVERYONE blows up their 1st motor- it is the learning curve. hence why you use stock parts until you understand wtf is going on....


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (PARTY_BOY)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PARTY_BOY* »_Piggybacks dont blow up motors,people do.Its all in the hand of the tuner.SDS would not have helped him.Its human error.

i'm goin with evan on this, and sticking to the story that the NS 'charger caused the damage, running a VERY lean A/F under boost for 2 years on the car, this started a time bomb type situation, and once turbo'd, although the motor _should_ have been able to handle it, because of its previous damage, it couldn't.
evan, lemme know what yer plans are w/ the setup, you know i'll be over there to help you out


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (vw16vcabby)*

I agree,a lot of people do blow up their first motors(sometimes their 2nd,3rd,and 4th,etc.)but tuning for stock comp. and boost with pump gas and not to strong AEG/AZG pistons is pretty tricky,and everybody "wants to save money" and not buy standalone(and SOME people have incredible results),but unfortunately most of the time it ends up costing more in the long run,just trying to help people avoid what I went through that's all,if you saw somebody going down the dangerous path,would'nt you try to help them out and warn them?Trust me,it is much more fun to drive your car everyday and enjoy the boost than it is to keep popping in motors,stand alone is a tool that can help even the novice(myself) tuner with the right approach develpo a powerful,reliable and LONG LIVING turbo motor(that runs 20+PSI).I have built and tuned a stock AEG/AZG turbo motor with stock compression,FMU,front mount IC, using a wideband and it has been running now for 5 mos.now(longer than 2kJetta guy) no problem,he is on the Tex,his name is "Neu-Bug",his car runs perfect,because I realized the limitations of stock management and boost,and ran it 8psi on 92 pump,at 11's a/f under boost,but that is all I will give him (so I don't have to pay for his blown motor)any higher I would like to pull out timing because unfortunately the stock Motronic system will try to advance until detonation threshold and by the time it detects knock and pulls out timing it is (obviously)too late.







Am I wrong anybody?If I am please tell me how it is.


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## vw16vcabby (Sep 19, 2001)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (Anand20v)*

how can u blame the lean condition on mechanical error in the case of the s/c? if you know your running lean than fix the problem. to me, thats like saying your hooking up w/ a hooker, but your going to use a rubber w/ a hole in it... your asking for problems....
if you ran lean on a motor for 2 years- didn't you notice any pock marks from pre detonation on the pistons, or the color of the spark plugs? A leak down test should have showed the wear.
imo, it was human error that the s/c was running lean. either too much of something or just too little of something else. if your lean, then pull out boost until your not lean. thats the "safe" limit then on the fuel setup you have at the time. you go above that limit- you run the risk of blowing stuff up- hence the human error part. works the same way the other way- too rich, turn up the boost until your not breaking out any more...
any system- no matter what it is, is only as good as the guy tweaking it. i dont expect a carberator guy to tune a efi system, and vice versa. work w/ what you are good at.


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (vw16vcabby)*

well, he realised the lean condition after a dyno run w/ a wideband o2 on it.... shortly after that the charger came off


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## vw16vcabby (Sep 19, 2001)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (Anand20v)*

it took 2 yrs to access a wideband o2 sensor??? man, i thought i worked slow at times, lol. thats what i don't understand- u spend how much money on building the motor, but it took 2 years to make a few pulls on a dyno that cost maybe 50-100 bucks. I can understand that some people dont have acess to them. but even those w/ no access rig up some sort of testing equipment to read fuel value. even an a/f or egt gauge should have caught this...
either way, learning mistake. let us know how big the hole is in the side of the piston. it will make a nice ashtray, i have a few sitting around the house/shop (only 1 of them are mine,







)


_Modified by vw16vcabby at 1:19 AM 7-4-2003_


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## KrautFed (Jan 9, 2002)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (Anand20v)*

Damn Evan, that blows.








My friend received a free, low mileage AEG motor which he dis-assembled immediately. I didn't get to check out the crank, but tonight we removed the wrist pins and seperated the pistons and rods. I didn't get a chance to checkout the bearings, but there was some weird scarring on #2 rod underneath the crank bearing. Other than that single scarring, everything was perfect. That scarring still puzzles me. Maybe the AEG isnt as strong as everyone thought.
I'm going back to his house this weekend, and I'm gonna try to find the #2 bearings and checkout the crank.
Never say die. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (vw16vcabby)*

I would imagen it to be the SC set it and forget it mentality that would make you not worry about it, I assumed that a charger like that would be set right esp. if it wasnt bucking on me. I agree SDS I just had no luck with a piggyback although I wasnt the best at using it. I couldnt fight with the motronic system any loger I got sick of fighting it. My car would adapt no matter what I did. I just couldnt keep running all these variables though my head wondering if the system decided to pull its on fuel,,, chips,,,, yadda yadda. 
I am on my second motor and would rather not get to the third anytime soon, my SDS will be here next week. 
Although I am sure Ill see the third soon, when I build with it the proper compresion. 
I am very sorry to hear that, I have been there over and over again at different levels. The next one will be faster. 


_Modified by mattstacks at 1:34 AM 7-4-2003_


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (KrautFed)*

Did you check out the ringlands on those pistons?They are not ideal for FI,a lot of AEG motors crapped out prematurely due to the factory and dealers recommending 10/30W oil and that combined with "low tension piston rings" was a trick to help fuel economy ratings but ended up that a lot of Mk4 2.0's had rediculously high oil consumption and owners not thinking a brand new car would need oil,never checked it and only found out when the "idiot light " came on and by then it was too late.................that is 1 possibility of scored bearing.Throw some forged slugs in there and you will be in business...............


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (SILVERADO)*

lots of people with the supercharger dont dyno the car because they dont want to see how much power it makes, they like to "predict" how much it makes. when they do hit the dyno, they dont pay for a wideband. They dont have a clue what the data means, and they arent going to do anything about it if it is lean or rich.
prove me wrong and post plots of neuspeed supercharged cars and with air/fuel data, and sorry datalogging with vag-com doesnt count! hahahaha


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (speed51133!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_prove me wrong and post plots of neuspeed supercharged cars and with air/fuel data, and sorry datalogging with vag-com doesnt count! hahahaha

here's evans from back in the day:


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## PARTY_BOY (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (Anand20v)*

One thing to keep in mind is he probably had a CAT on the car and that makes the tailpipe sniffer worthless.


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (speed51133!)*

I guess I've been incredibly lucky!
Here is a picture I took of the top of one of my pistons when I pulled the head to replace it last December. I had been running higher boost (9 psi and up to 14+ psi) for about a year. The picture is blurry, but can anyone tell me if it is pitted from detonation? The yellow ovals are showing where my intake valves got a little too close.


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## PARTY_BOY (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (JettaRed)*

looks like detonation to me.


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## TURBOPHIL (Jan 31, 2002)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (JettaRed)*

Yo Evan, sorry to hear about the ride, shizit happens, dont be discouraged, take the extensive knowledge that you have gained doing this project and build again, If the head is'nt damaged get a short block and start again, you already got most of the stuff.


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (TURBOPHIL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TURBOPHIL* »_Yo Evan, sorry to hear about the ride, shizit happens, dont be discouraged, take the extensive knowledge that you have gained doing this project and build again, If the head is'nt damaged get a short block and start again, you already got most of the stuff.









Evan,
I've got a spare head from when I replaced mine. I had bought it used, but then decided to go with a remanufactured one.


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## jhillyer (Feb 17, 2002)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (Anand20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Anand20v* »_
i'm goin with evan on this, and sticking to the story that the NS 'charger caused the damage, running a VERY lean A/F under boost for 2 years on the car, this started a time bomb type situation, and once turbo'd, although the motor _should_ have been able to handle it, because of its previous damage, it couldn't.
evan, lemme know what yer plans are w/ the setup, you know i'll be over there to help you out

I don't see this as conclusive. There's missing data. Are we claiming the turbo caused leaner running than the supercharger? Otherwise, this catastrophe would have happened with the supercharger, which I see as true given what I've read here.
<edit>
Oh yeah, I'm careful _now_, I've popped an engine too.


_Modified by jhillyer at 7:57 AM 7-4-2003_


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (jhillyer)*

jhillyer, no what i'm saying is that the motor was damamged, not to the point of destruction, put approaching it wiht the lean conditions presented by the supercharger.... the addition of the turbocharger to the motor was not hte direct cause of the damage, but pushed the previous damage to destruction.... it would have happened if he kept the supercharger on it as well IMHO, except w/ the SC it probably would have happened sooner


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (Anand20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Anand20v* »_jhillyer, no what i'm saying is that the motor was damamged, not to the point of destruction, put approaching it wiht the lean conditions presented by the supercharger.... the addition of the turbocharger to the motor was not hte direct cause of the damage, but pushed the previous damage to destruction.... it would have happened if he kept the supercharger on it as well IMHO, except w/ the SC it probably would have happened sooner

Gotta disagree. I've had the supercharger on for over two years. I have nearly 70,000 miles on the car with the supercharger (over 101k total). I've run my car with the 2.4" pulley up to nearly 15 psi, but I was using water injection and the temps were in the 20s.
While Evan's car may have been weakened by the supercharger, that is entirely speculation at this point. With everyone saying "everyone blows their engine the first time (with a turbo)", I would be inclinded to believe it was something other than the SC since not everyone starts with an SC.
I'm really sorry to see this happen since Evan was making such great progress.


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## turbojeta3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (JettaRed)*

man sorry to hear that man. all that work and you get this kind of reprocution. the hard part is on its way. its easy to track something down and figure out what happened.
the hard part is figuring out how to fix that problem. money becomes a issue considiering how much you just spent. i know its tough just having the tuff together and have something like this happen. eveyone here does. we have all been there. we live and learn and fix the problem. address the problem at had which lies in the timing. i am not very smart but like alot of guys with this SS it was about to happen. and i am sorry also that it happened to you. sounded like you were doing so good with the tunning.
but hey we all know its tuff. hang in there find out, fix it, enjoy it.
good luck man keep us posted. head up.
have one on me.


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## PARTY_BOY (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (turbojeta3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *turbojeta3* »_man sorry to hear that man. all that work and you get this kind of reprocution. the hard part is on its way. its easy to track something down and figure out what happened.
the hard part is figuring out how to fix that problem. money becomes a issue considiering how much you just spent. i know its tough just having the tuff together and have something like this happen. eveyone here does. we have all been there. we live and learn and fix the problem. address the problem at had which lies in the timing. i am not very smart but like alot of guys with this SS it was about to happen. and i am sorry also that it happened to you. sounded like you were doing so good with the tunning.
but hey we all know its tuff. hang in there find out, fix it, enjoy it.
good luck man keep us posted. head up.
have one on me.









Its pretty easy to fix the problem with the SS unit(give it more fuel)It sounds like it may have happened when they ran my 4bar map with their 3bar FPR.
I just took out a piston as well







My problem lies in the home built wideband system(DIY wideband).When I got my sensor it had bare wires and no plug on it.It just so happens that there is a calibration resistor inside the plug(I have no plug).It looks like I was off by over a point on my A/F ratio,and when your pushing the limit of a stock compression motor thats all it takes.I'll be back on the road by monday.
Don't let this stop this project.Pull the head and drop the pan and yank out the free ashtrays







.


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (PARTY_BOY)*

Ok,so now we have 2 people that blew up on the Split Second system,I hope your cylinders aren't scored,if they are'nt then you might get lucky popping in new pistons,but most people can't (or don't know how) to pop in pistons and replace motors,and so far I can add 2 more blown motors to the others I have seenb here on the Tex,by the time you price out a new motor,and installation you could have bought SDS (or any other system)and forged pistons,so I don't see this as a way to save money.Party boy was boosting 15psi,and 2kJetta was at 9 and blew up,with SDS yo can go 30psi if your stuff can handle it.


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## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (SILVERADO)*

damm with this said, im gonna keep runnig my 8 psi on stock comp, and im gonna lower my comp then run 12 -14 max at the track on 110 and about 11 daily on 93-94, that should be ok, i might as well lower my comp to give me margin for error being that this is my first tuning job,


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## PARTY_BOY (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (SILVERADO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SILVERADO* »_Ok,so now we have 2 people that blew up on the Split Second system,I hope your cylinders aren't scored,if they are'nt then you might get lucky popping in new pistons,but most people can't (or don't know how) to pop in pistons and replace motors,and so far I can add 2 more blown motors to the others I have seenb here on the Tex,by the time you price out a new motor,and installation you could have bought SDS (or any other system)and forged pistons,so I don't see this as a way to save money.Party boy was boosting 15psi,and 2kJetta was at 9 and blew up,with SDS yo can go 30psi if your stuff can handle it.









Again I'm going to say it was the tuners fault







.I was going agressivly lean and I was using a faulty wideband(one I made for $20







).


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## vw16vcabby (Sep 19, 2001)

im w/ party boy- i know i have blown a motor up running sds. it was 100% my fault- and i knew it. but i was racing something that i didn't want to lose to, and didnt care that my wastegate was broke and letting my turbo build 28lbs of boost on pump gas. live and you learn. Sds does help out alot, but you can get similar results using other systems. 
like i said earlier- user error- and use what you know. Hell, if i was super good w/ cis- i would run it.


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## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (vw16vcabby)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vw16vcabby* »_im w/ party boy- i know i have blown a motor up running sds. it was 100% my fault- and i knew it. but i was racing something that i didn't want to lose to, and didnt care that my wastegate was broke and letting my turbo build 28lbs of boost on pump gas. live and you learn. Sds does help out alot, but you can get similar results using other systems. 
like i said earlier- user error- and use what you know. Hell, if i was super good w/ cis- i would run it. 
hahaha LOL "knew 28 psi on pump gas " LOL i hate when that stupidity in use comes out, it sso over powering!!!!


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## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (turbojeta3)*

if the supercharger was runnig lean for two years, dont you think that it would have blown up then??? Plus from the way you explained what happened it sounds like you threw a rod. Is there or isnt there a hole in the block? Or is it just blowing massive amounts of smoke??? If you threw a rod any previous detonation would really have nothing to do with that. That would just be your motor not holding up to the power. And if you cracked a ring or anything else that is just the weakness sof the motor. NOw if theres a chunk out of the piston then thats detonation. So please tell what exactly went on, im very curious to know. And also its not the ss units fault, i ran a fmu/chip setup for years with no problems boosting 10 psi stock compression and even up to 15 under stacked headgaskets. So some times that ****ty fuel system can work fine!!!! I think thats all i have to say! Oh wait, go get another motor and try it again. Maybe get an earlier block, ive seemed to have good luck with my 97 aba








Todd


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## thaiteboi (Feb 26, 2003)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (turbodub)*

almost a month... and i also blew the #2 piston.... anyways, I was shootin NOS before the charger & it is possible that weakened my motor
i am going back to a 2.8" pulley with my charger just for safety reasons...


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## thaiteboi (Feb 26, 2003)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (thaiteboi)*

so is "lowering the compression" a little bit of "insurance" against detonation? does this mean running 12lbs boost with a 9:1 compression is as safe as 7lbs with a 10:1 compression...


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (thaiteboi)*

Not that simple of a coralation but yes, it is basically like saying that a piece of air is compressed into one tenth of its size, if its 8 to one it would be one eighth, therefore less stress. Basicaly.


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## vw16vcabby (Sep 19, 2001)

*Re: (D Wiz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *D Wiz* »_hahaha LOL "knew 28 psi on pump gas " LOL i hate when that stupidity in use comes out, it sso over powering!!!!

true. but like i said, i knew it was going to happen. the w/g broke in 2nd gear- was set at 15 lbs. i saw the car build more boost- but said f it. . i knew the consequences- could have shut the car down any time i wanted to.- i seen the egt's raise dramatically as well as the boost gauge go double what it normally sits at. but like i said- i wanted to win. was well worth the day labor and 200 bucks i had to pay for junkyard block/new gaskets/ piston rings/bearings to rebuild the "new" junkyard block. Wasn't like i was planning on running that much boost- i do have race gas for trips into high boost. but at the same time- i was determined to win. To me, killing a motor was well worth the win. Aint like i had a ton of money invested in it, or was not like i couldn't build a new one for dirt cheap. Now if i had built internals- then a different story....


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (vw16vcabby)*

My condolences. It can't be easy loosing a motor, I haven't lost one yet, and I hope to God I never do. Throw some forged pistons in there and up the boost!








Good luck!


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## turbojeta3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: (Agtronic)*

party boy what your saying and what im am saying is two different things.
i was refering to timing and fuel amung other things. 
and the answer is not just smothering it in fuel. is there is a problem it needs to be addressed not just covered in fuel. and from what i got in that answer by you was just that. that isnt the answer at all.


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (turbojeta3)*

I agree,you can't just keep dumping fuel and expect it not to detonate.But guys on the Tex will blow up a motor on a certain "setup"(CIS,Digifant,FMU,SS,etc.)and I think it is pride or ego but after they blow up they will still defend and swear by the mangement that just helped them blow up,this is especially true with the CIS guys,they LOVE to blow motors and so do the Nawzz guys!!I got bored of blowing motors real fast,now I don't swear by Digi 1,I swear at it!








I know one system I will never use,the PSC-1 that is for sure,I have gotten more reliability from FMU's.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I fogot ,the Digi-1 guys love to blow motors too,I have literally lost count of how many guys here and on the G60/Corrado forums that have blown motors on Digi-1 and they keep coming back for more!!(just like I did,the fool that I am







!)


_Modified by SILVERADO at 10:47 AM 7-5-2003_


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## rocco2.0gtiLondon (Feb 26, 2003)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*

Did you check the compression before the Turbo install?
I'm sure you would have, but if it was fine before i'd be more inclined to blame the High cr and fueling.
Sorry to hear that, some1 said on the project post that your car was an Inspiration to every1 well now its a loss to every1








So get back on the case and fix her up good luck bro http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
-Rich


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (rocco2.0gtiLondon)*

I just got back from the beach... left this piece of crap at home for my brother to work on. He's got the head ready to be pulled, we just need to go borrow the special vw tool from the dealership. 
His thoughts are headgasket, as there seems to be substances coming from between the head and gasket. If its pistons, I don't know what I am going to do. I was running decent boost on stock compression. However unlike my supercharger i was actually making a ****load of power. It hauled monkey ass. 
I am not blaming this on anyone or anything until I find out exactly what's wrong. At which point, I'll let you know. 
I did dyno my supercharger setup a few times. After dynoing it the first time I was dissapointed enough to not want to dyno it again. Then I started messing with it, dynoed it a few more times and made hardly any more power. I know now that the setup was no more plug and play than this, but you couldn't convince anyone it wasn't.


----------



## CorradoFANATIC (Feb 22, 2001)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

if it is the gasket, just put some arp studs in there (you need new ones anyway) and a new gasket and torque it up real good.


----------



## GTI RB (Aug 25, 2000)

*Re: (CorradoFANATIC)*

Yea, this sounds like blown ringlands to me. Did the same thing back in 2001 to my AEG Turbo. I had a boost spike with improper fueling, the ringlands blew and half my piston fell down into the oil pan, luckily my walls werent scored.
So quit lounging around, rip that head off and replace the damn piston







. Then get back out on the road and show that AEG whos boss







.
Also, if you cant get the vw special tool, you can modify a t55 to work(i bleiev it was a t55 i used). You just gotta grind down the teeth a little for it to fit snugly. I never once striped a bolt with it. Also take two of you old head bolts, and cut the tops off of them, and smooth them down. You can use thoose as your guides instead of paying VW parts for two peices of metal







.
Goodluck, keep us updated.


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (GTI RB)*

Got the vw tool, and guess what boys and girls! Yup, pistons are shot. #2 is completely melted on the side, chunks of piston rings were found in the head. #3 also has a chunk missing and lots of pre-detonation marks. To top it off, look how clean the pistons are! You know i had to be running lean with the charger. 
Since I did the tuning, watched the weideband, and made the changes from the passenger seat i know I fueled it enough at the end for the turbo setup. I do feel like the supercharger caused alot of this, as the plugs i removed after swapping the charger out were severely melted. It was only a matter of time before this thing blew up. The new power i was making thursday night set it off bigtime. Too bad there wasn't a big boom or something. I wanted to at least hear an explosion.
So here they are:
















#2 is melted on the side and rocks back and forth on the wrist pin. Both #2 and #2 show signs of something having been in the cylinder and making alot of dents in it. All 4 look steam cleaned. 
Now the question is - did the supercharger kit with the smaller pulley running not so rich and on fire for 16k turn this motor into a ticking time bomb? Or, was it A-ok and I just Fed it in the last couple weeks. I think its situation #1 and the great power i was making thursday night just killed it. 
Now, what to do in this AEG? I'm not mad anymore, so no reason to rip out the 2.0 unless someone drops a 20v off in my yard. What I do need to know is where to get pistons, rods and some headstuds. How much is this mistake going to cost my creditors


----------



## PARTY_BOY (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SILVERADO* »_I agree,you can't just keep dumping fuel and expect it not to detonate.But guys on the Tex will blow up a motor on a certain "setup"(CIS,Digifant,FMU,SS,etc.)and I think it is pride or ego but after they blow up they will still defend and swear by the mangement that just helped them blow up,this is especially true with the CIS guys,they LOVE to blow motors and so do the Nawzz guys!!I got bored of blowing motors real fast,now I don't swear by Digi 1,I swear at it!







I know one system I will never use,the PSC-1 that is for sure,I have gotten more reliability from FMU's.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I fogot ,the Digi-1 guys love to blow motors too,I have literally lost count of how many guys here and on the G60/Corrado forums that have blown motors on Digi-1 and they keep coming back for more!!(just like I did,the fool that I am







!)

_Modified by SILVERADO at 10:47 AM 7-5-2003_

I don't really give a flying fluck what you use







The PSC1 work awsome.
I take full responsibility for my blowing up(I've been trying to blow this thing up for about 6mo now







).I leaned it out a little too much,my bad.
I really would like to know why this PSC1 threatens you so?


----------



## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

Sorry man,there is no "ticking time bomb scenario,(maybe on the rod bearings) but the damage you see was caused by all the madness with your setup,pistons either are complete or like yours melted and fugged up,there is no inbetween,if you did'nt see the melting before when you had your head off,then why would you have it now and be in denial and blame your supercharger?The pistons are clean because you overfueled it and washed all the crap off of the pistons(really rich) or you ran it so lean that the pistons had everything burnt off of them (I am going with the latter) Remember 310"s can't even get you 200whp so your piggyback even if tuned right has a very low power threshold,but what happened to you will happen again if you keep that SS crap in there.







I would be so pissed right now I would throw that unit at the wall and buy a better system and tune your timing as well.Then you can drive your car longer than 3weeks. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Get the SDS and I will help you with maps ,etc,and it will work.


----------



## PARTY_BOY (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_Got the vw tool, and guess what boys and girls! Yup, pistons are shot. #2 is completely melted on the side, chunks of piston rings were found in the head. #3 also has a chunk missing and lots of pre-detonation marks. To top it off, look how clean the pistons are! You know i had to be running lean with the charger. 
Since I did the tuning, watched the weideband, and made the changes from the passenger seat i know I fueled it enough at the end for the turbo setup. I do feel like the supercharger caused alot of this, as the plugs i removed after swapping the charger out were severely melted. It was only a matter of time before this thing blew up. The new power i was making thursday night set it off bigtime. Too bad there wasn't a big boom or something. I wanted to at least hear an explosion.
So here they are:
















#2 is melted on the side and rocks back and forth on the wrist pin. Both #2 and #2 show signs of something having been in the cylinder and making alot of dents in it. All 4 look steam cleaned. 
Now the question is - did the supercharger kit with the smaller pulley running not so rich and on fire for 16k turn this motor into a ticking time bomb? Or, was it A-ok and I just Fed it in the last couple weeks. I think its situation #1 and the great power i was making thursday night just killed it. 
Now, what to do in this AEG? I'm not mad anymore, so no reason to rip out the 2.0 unless someone drops a 20v off in my yard. What I do need to know is where to get pistons, rods and some headstuds. How much is this mistake going to cost my creditors









I think you leand it out in the last few weeks.It was melted because of a rather dramatic lean condition in the last few runs.


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*

silverado, i never had my head off before so this is the first time I have seen my pistons. 
Anyone want my turbo kit? its a nice kit, mechanically


----------



## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*

Party Boy you are cracking me up LOL,dude you blow up YOUR MOTOR and Evan Blows Up his?AND IT WORKS AWESOME HAHAHAHA,read my previous post,pride or ego,come on bro WTF?YOu both blew up motor in less than 1 mo.s time? I am saying that SS SUKZ!!!!Look at D-wiz,his ain't running right.I'm sorry let me rephrase this The SS works awesome!! (for blowing motors)







Evan did'nt you post a pic of your head off with the "valve contact",







and SS is not a threat to me or anyone,IT IS A THREAT TO PISTONS!!!This is such a stupid argument,unless you are blind,you will see.And Partyboy it has'nt been 6 mois since you installed and were trumpeting this thing as so greta,well I guess the proofs in the pudding and the pistons!!I am sincerely sorry this happened to you Evan but you listened to the wrong guy (party boy)and put your trust annd motor in his hands and look what happened and this guy is STILL saying how awesome SS is LOL,LOL,LOL,DUDE










_Modified by SILVERADO at 10:22 PM 7-5-2003_


----------



## PARTY_BOY (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SILVERADO* »_Party Boy you are cracking me up LOL,dude you blow up YOUR MOTOR and Evan Blows Up his?AND IT WORKS AWESOME HAHAHAHA,read my previous post,pride or ego,come on bro WTF?YOu both blew up motor in less than 1 mo.s time? I am saying that SS SUKZ!!!!Look at D-wiz,his ain't running right.I'm sorry let me rephrase this The SS works awesome!! (for blowing motors)







Evan did'nt you post a pic of your head off with the "valve contact",







and SS is not a threat to me or anyone,IT IS A THREAT TO PISTONS!!!This is such a stupid argument,unless you are blind,you will see.And Partyboy it has'nt been 6 mois since you installed and were trumpeting this thing as so greta,well I guess the proofs in the pudding and the pistons!!I am sincerely sorry this happened to you Evan but you listened to the wrong guy (party boy)and put your trust annd motor in his hands and look what happened and this guy is STILL saying how awesome SS is LOL,LOL,LOL,DUDE









_Modified by SILVERADO at 10:22 PM 7-5-2003_

OK how did the SS unit blow up the motors?It did'nt.I did.
OH and BS on the 310s not making 200whp.


_Modified by PARTY_BOY at 10:28 PM 7-5-2003_


----------



## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (PARTY_BOY)*

Uhhhh,because it only adds fuel and not timing,if you really knew how to tune you would have known that.And both you guys used a wideband and both of you guys are making excuses as to whty it blew up.PARTYBOY,you are the SS "guru" and you blew your own crap up!Yep listen to party boy he is the man.







Blown pistons and PartyBoy=







Oh yeah my car is also faster than yours and still runs!! SS rules!! And try to get over 200whp with 80% duty cycle on a 4 cyl.







Read my earlier post Party Boy,up your ego or pride is keeping you in denial that this unit does'nt have the adjustability you need to run FI reliably,man all you had to do is figure out mixture,I have installed FMU's on 5 turbo 2.0's and they are ALL STILL RUNNING.PARTYBOY<you should have bought a FMU!


_Modified by SILVERADO at 10:36 PM 7-5-2003_


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (PARTY_BOY)*

I put my trust in alot of people, but ultimately I did all the work and all the tuning. I mean, I read the bell book, I bought a $600 wideband unit, I was careful, heard no pinging and look what happened to me. 
I took the motor too far, that's pretty much the bottom line. I think I am a pretty smart kid, leanerd my stuff for over a year before starting this, tuned the car the 12.5 AFR, thought everything was A-ok. It felt fine until it went boom. With SDS i would have blown this thing up too. Without a doubt man. 
I can build some cool stuff, but here's proof I can't tune it i guess. Whatever, I don't think the AEG is good for more than 5 pounds anyways. I am not mad at Partyboy, I am not even mad at myself. I am mad that I spent so much time building this and working on this car to drive it for only about 1000 miles. Now, I am carless again (no life) and my money's been spent. Do i throw $1300 at pistons and rods (if they even make them for the AEG) or throw a new motor in and sell the car for no value, or throw in a 20v or throw in a VR? 
All i know is that I've got a blown motor, don't want to spend $1300 to make it run. I could just replace the stock pistons and keep it at very low boost - but I didn't spend 80 hours on this things to run 140whp like my supercharger. At the same time a motor swap seems like a really huge project and a pain in the ass. 
Dammit, that's all I have to say. Blew up a good 2000 Jetta


----------



## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (PARTY_BOY)*

It blew up the motor becuase, the motronic syatem keeps pulling fuel, you can not trick it that way. If you do not have enough fuel in the first place then this unit will not help add it, it is best suited for leaning out huge injectors, even if you can add fuel what about timing? I do not believe that the system pulled enough timing or the system started to run lean after the tuning, mine did it ran fine for a couple of runs maybe even twenty miles, then the system started to run lean up top. I may and probably be wrong here but I agree with the proper setup/ SDS. By the way Split Second's cust. service is pretty good they took mine back after a 35.00 dollar restocking fee even after I cut the wires.
Adaptation suxor. 
If the S/C had done it you would have went through rings or even bearings, a melted piston is from detonation, that run


----------



## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

With SDS you could have run less timing and not blown up,with SS you put your faith in PARTYBOY saying it weorks great and all you need is fuel,I'm sorry but you also need boost retard on a street turbo car with pump gas and stock compression.Either way I feel bad for you and hope you find a solution.And I setup a AEG new beetle with 8psi FMU no probs,why is the SS so crappy?


----------



## PARTY_BOY (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SILVERADO* »_Uhhhh,because it only adds fuel and not timing,if you really knew how to tune you would have known that.And both you guys used a wideband and both of you guys are making excuses as to whty it blew up.PARTYBOY,you are the SS "guru" and you blew your own crap up!Yep listen to party boy he is the man.







Blown pistons and PartyBoy=







Oh yeah my car is also faster than yours and still runs!! SS rules!! And try to get over 200whp with 80% duty cycle on a 4 cyl.







Read my earlier post Party Boy,up your ego or pride is keeping you in denial that this unit does'nt have the adjustability you need to run FI reliably,man all you had to do is figure out mixture,I have installed FMU's on 5 turbo 2.0's and they are ALL STILL RUNNING.PARTYBOY<you should have bought a FMU!

_Modified by SILVERADO at 10:36 PM 7-5-2003_

God you really hate this SS unit.Or is it me?What is your problem?Maybe you need to lay off the coffee


----------



## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (PARTY_BOY)*

I have no "hate" for it,just the clowns that say it works great and still keep doing so after 2 blown motors,why do you have "hate" for a much better (obviously) system like SDS?Because you know I am right?Dude learn more about tuning FI before you start saying "it works awesome".You Suk and SS sukz.


----------



## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*

Bwahaha! Its is just some pistons, stack head gaskets throw some new pistons in there and go, at this point all the money is in the turbo setup a motor is just a motor, if you want to do a swap do it. I will tell you one thing that is for sure please listen to me on this one. The motor has to be pulled, dismantled and taken to the machine shop for some hot tanking, at least cleaned well, same with the turbo and all the tubing as well as the I/C, oil lines ECT. all the freeze plugs need to come out. Trust me. If you dont you will end up losing the turbo as well. 
Not to be the one that brings bad news but its the truth, completely dismantled.


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (mattstacks)*

So your saying this motor needs to be completely dismantled and rebuilt? 
I might just throw in another 2.0 and sell the car to carmax


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## rocco2.0gtiLondon (Feb 26, 2003)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

G60 bottom end is built for forced induction, that should fit or build the 2.0 with forged pistons. Don't think you'd need to replace everything???
Youve done the hard part, once its stripped down you have everything there to put it back to how it was but better








You found the weak link - I think if you are looking for decent power you need at least a rebuild/a reliable block. The supercharger probly didnt help, i vote for a rebuild:thumbup: 
Dont give up on her!
-Rich


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (rocco2.0gtiLondon)*

i think GTI RB sold his to car max too, try and see how much pistons are, probaly cheap for some used ones, i personally am gonna keep my stock 8 psi and never raise it from taht even when i get widebanded, i aint trying to blow my shhiittt and just wait and get SDS not that the SS isnt great, it seems to workgood just hard to get it dialed in, but i always wanted the SDS for its simplicity and good rep, if anything else comes along ill give it a chance, but damm i wish i could beon taht sshhiitt right now


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (D Wiz)*

OK now that I've calmed down.......sorry about being harsh PARTYBOY,but I am a honest person and call it like I see it and want ALL of the information out there,the fact that you were touting this to be such a great setup as good or better than a standalone,but as you have found out and Evan AND Mattstacks (I think you blew up too right?) that is 3,yes count 'em 3 motors that have blown up VERY QUICKLY on SS PSC-1.Please don't take this wrong I am not trying to rub it in your face,I am on YOUR SIDE,and merely making you see through the denial and help you avoid doing this to your next motor,when it is so easy to install and tune SDS and be happy.I only change oil and check my DP bolts and that is it fore 12,000 miles now,and since I am very happy with how it runs I don't even touch the programmer anymore,and am even slacking on my 16V conversion because the 8V is hauling ass so hard (remember I am a long-time VW4 banger guy and never owned a muscle car,so a 13 sec. fully loaded street car is fast for me),and runs so well,that the 16V can wait and all I have to do is buy 550's and reprogram fuel advanced curve and it will be a rocket.







It is frustrating to try to tell you guys how well this thing works cuz if I could give you a ride in my car you would be convinced!!Don't be a guinea pig,try something THAT WILL WORK,GUARANTEED!


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*

well, that's good advice for others. I do not want to put another thousand into this motor though, so SDS is not for me


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

you know whats kinda funny tho, you spend about 300 for the piggy and injectors and 600 for a wideband and you dont think about it but like 400$ more or so, and you could have had SDS, imnot talkin about you evan, im just staying that the ipggyback with wideband is almost like a grand, its justso hard to save all that cash at first


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (D Wiz)*

I wouldn't consider buying SDS and not using a wideband. That's just as risky as any other setup. Just because its standalone doesn't mean you can just magically make it work. 
That said, I spent $410 total for the fueling


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

I would have to say that you definitely did not get your $410.00 worth.............with the SDS I could have given you a conservative map that would take less than 5 minutes to input and it would be free.So you are over it?You are taking the turbo out?







That is a bummer,THIS IS WHY I am on here sounding like a jerkoff because I know what a bummer it is to blow up and WANTED YOU (and others) TO AVOID THE SAME FATE THAT I HAD)Lucky for me it takes me a afternoon to R&R a motor,but other guys reading this,if you want to have a GOOD turbo experience,don't make the same mistake by being guinea pigs for unproven systems,you have to pay to play and are better off doing it right the first time,GOD how I wish there was a "jerk" like SILVERADO" around when I was doing my first foray into FI,I might still be on my first motor!







BTW luckily your boy anand20v has lower comp,but as a friend I would tell him to pull his SS crap off his car and get a Jefnes3 unit,or a standalone,VR6's cost more than a 2.o.


_Modified by SILVERADO at 2:24 AM 7-6-2003_


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*

I get it man, thanks. If i had listened to all the "jerks" out there who said don't turbo the AEG i wouldn't be in this situation. Looking back I shouldn't have done it period. Sure, I can make a really nice looking kit with nice machine work but the motor's junk and now the car's off the road like it always has been.
I don't know what I am doing about it yet, but I am close to over it.


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

man if it could be januart 2001 again, i would not even get a 2.0 it would be a vr 60-1 or 1.8T t3t4, or an a3 gti VR then boost, mk4 blows, or if anything i would bought a POS 200$ a2 with aba and boosted that, seems like mk4 is hard, im not givoing up but those are changes i would make, 
evan, wannna sell taht lambdaboy?


----------



## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

Pop in a used motor($200.00-$500.00 bux)or buy JE's and learn how to rebuild your motor,and get a SDS (or ANY standalone,if you like laptops and software,and bells and whistles or have to heve sequential injection) and you will be on the way to a good running turbo car,and I HIGHLY recommend a front mount IC for a street car,and lower your comp,whether through pistons or 2X headgaskets. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif With SDS you program timing at 250rpm increments,and fuel at 250rpm increments,and boost retard,it is EASY!!


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SILVERADO* »_Pop in a used motor($200.00-$500.00 bux)or buy JE's and learn how to rebuild your motor,and get a SDS (or ANY standalone,if you like laptops and software,and bells and whistles or have to heve sequential injection) and you will be on the way to a good running turbo car,and I HIGHLY recommend a front mount IC for a street car,and lower your comp,whether through pistons or 2X headgaskets. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif With SDS you program timing at 250rpm increments,and fuel at 250rpm increments,and boost retard,it is EASY!!

JE pistson - $600
Pauter Rods - $700
Head Studs - $200
standalone - $1000-$3000
Front mount - $500+
Having someone else tune it perfect - $500
All the time needed to fix it plus redo the kit which i don't have
Total - $3500 - $5500
Not worth it to me. I won't have a running car for months. Might as well buy those expensive ass supercharger kits


----------



## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

You don't have to spend that much really,I don't run rods or headstuds and I run 20+psi on 98 octane.You will have problems with heads lifting usually if your PCP is too near TDC,if you fire the flame right you will have PCP at 12-14deg ATDC and no headlifting!Hell I am using "reused" headbolts (a no no) but I have no probs,as long as YOU are tuned right.Engine $500.00,Stand alone $1300.00,2 headgaskets,$60.00,front mount $300.00-$500.00 ,reliable boost.........priceless About 1/2 of what you said,that will easily handle 15psi,as long as you have lower comp and big injectors and a wideband, and don't push the advance on pump gas you can have fun.....


----------



## PARTY_BOY (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SILVERADO* »_OK now that I've calmed down.......sorry about being harsh PARTYBOY,but I am a honest person and call it like I see it and want ALL of the information out there,the fact that you were touting this to be such a great setup as good or better than a standalone,but as you have found out and Evan AND Mattstacks (I think you blew up too right?) that is 3,yes count 'em 3 motors that have blown up VERY QUICKLY on SS PSC-1.Please don't take this wrong I am not trying to rub it in your face,I am on YOUR SIDE,and merely making you see through the denial and help you avoid doing this to your next motor,when it is so easy to install and tune SDS and be happy.I only change oil and check my DP bolts and that is it fore 12,000 miles now,and since I am very happy with how it runs I don't even touch the programmer anymore,and am even slacking on my 16V conversion because the 8V is hauling ass so hard (remember I am a long-time VW4 banger guy and never owned a muscle car,so a 13 sec. fully loaded street car is fast for me),and runs so well,that the 16V can wait and all I have to do is buy 550's and reprogram fuel advanced curve and it will be a rocket.







It is frustrating to try to tell you guys how well this thing works cuz if I could give you a ride in my car you would be convinced!!Don't be a guinea pig,try something THAT WILL WORK,GUARANTEED!

Dude.The only reason I toasted mine is because I was being careless.I pulled out a whole bunch of fuel earlier in the day.Then on the way home from work(windows down and radio blasting,ping,ping,ping).Oops to late.I had a lean spot in the map that was'nt in the roll on the throttle part of the map.I obviously was'nt watching the wideband at this time.End of story.


----------



## Scrubby (May 13, 2002)

*Re: (PARTY_BOY)*

Evan, Lets talk to you know who , We can get fixed with the kit ,but you might want to look at a stand alone system. You ll make even more power ,Reliably, stick with it . DONT get discouraged.I was aalways curious about the timing,but you had FI chip. Hmm ,dont understand. What about the empty water tank not cooling the air to water IC.It s an idea.But that definatly looks like a burn thropugh on the piston,indicating a Lean condition ,and also the imact chips on the outer dome. Lets pull the motor and disassemble and go from there. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (PARTY_BOY)*

I run the psc,not because i cannot afford TEC-III or sds but because i would like to maybe one day sell my car to some one that does not want to jump through hoops to pass emmisions.If you do not know anyone then you are screwed.My car is far from a fast car but it is quick,no quarter around here but my fastest 8th is a 9.2 with some street compound tires at 40 psi,sub box in amp in trunk and a set of porsche recaros that probably weigh 150 pounds a piece.Using Party boys map was enough to blast many domestics at 16 psi.Are you guys getting paid to endorse?




_Modified by Bad Habit at 11:15 PM 7-5-2003_


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*

Shaun do you still have that VR?


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## Scrubby (May 13, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

hehe yeah but you still need a trans, mounts, and an ecm. $2200 for the complete motor. Aqlso a pedal assemblyand exhaust.Let me know.Unless you want an 0bd1 setup, then 1500 for just the motor,manifold to oil pan only. 
Lets talk to our friend.you wont be dissapointed.its just time....


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (Scrubby)*

If i get the new 2.0 block should I build it with forged stuff or just get a lower compression headgasket, tune it better and hope it holds out?


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## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

evan, for the price of foeged pistons and rods, you coudl have a stand alone, i know its repeated, but whats forged internals without stand alone?? i personally would get stand aloen first to have t ready for forged inetrnals, plenty poeple do 25-300whp on stock blocks but stand laoned, imjust syaing it would be wiser ot get taht first before forged
without good managenment you could still blow the forged internals, just keep people like the jersey boys in mind, the 10 sec jetta, turbo dub etc, all those guys are 11's and under and on stock blocks but those guys are tuned out, so you see just take it easy and get it tuned right woth a good ecu liek sds, dta, autronic, haltech, microtech etc, basically anything with a MAP and its own ecu, im sick of "fooling" the motronic


_Modified by D Wiz at 12:02 AM 7-6-2003_


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (D Wiz)*

sigh.... money pit


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

check http://www.momentumtuning.com, they did a mk4 AVH liek me, stock internals, about 10-12 psi and didi like 240 toprque, and liek 210whp dont remmeber, he has had zero, silch , nada, none , no problems whatsoever, not cause its sds, but its stand alone, i undertsnad for poeple liek you and me who know how to do stuff, and the situations were in hopingto make piggy's work, they can, but with all the work we put intop pur cars, customizing, i think stand alone shoudl be the cherry on top, basically anyone with sds, autronic, haltech etc i mean anyone with a stand alone barely ever posts roblems, im just gonna wait and join that click!!!
silverado, SDS is "cherry" right? LOL


----------



## Scrubby (May 13, 2002)

*Re: (D Wiz)*

Evan ,I also have 2 20valve heads,if you want to try somethin else.cheap.....


----------



## VW97Jetta (Sep 5, 2002)

*Re: (Scrubby)*

Man, this sucks.....I was really looking forward to seeing the end result in a more positive manner







.
Pop in a rebuilt engine and go with SDS.....if you were closer to CT, Momentum Tuning sells, installs and tunes SDS for around $1,500 (at least that's what I was quoted a few months back).


----------



## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (VW97Jetta)*

Guys, I think the message is clear. If I see the letters S D S again tonight I'm closing the browser and gonna surf porn on Kazaa instead.
Also, if he's using a wideband, it's highly doubtful that this was caused by a lean condition. Probably just too much lead. Most maps I've seen start to pull timing by 2 psi, so if he was running 9 lbs and not pulling timing, that's probably what caused it. Probably silent detonation too.








Evan, have you considered the FTC by Split Second? Couldn't you pull timing with it? It sure as hell ain't $1500!


----------



## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (VW97Jetta)*

OK PARTYBOY is still a SS man! Buy some spare motors and bus passes!







If you know how to tune ,how come you "leaned it out"







with no boost retard you should have been in 11's a/f ,but you probably already knew that.







You should hang out with the CIS and Digifart guys and swap blown motor stories!!I personally hate blowing motors and the worst thing is the next morning when you HOPE it was all a bad dream!


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: (Agtronic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Agtronic* »_Evan, have you considered the FTC by Split Second? Couldn't you pull timing with it? It sure as hell ain't $1500!


thats what i'm thinking about for the future... FTC1-E.... all the stuff of the PSC1-001, plus the ESC1, plus full timing control







... mix that w/ a lil MSD DIS4-HO and its all gravy


----------



## turbojeta3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: (Anand20v)*

dont get fustrated we all know what happens when people get like that. sit down weight your options and think really hard on what you want. yes this happened and its a bummer but its a learning experience. i have blown 2 motors so far. 
take the pistons out and look at the walls if there is any sign of sorching pits anything then you have to go to the next step. which is bigger pistons. but thats fine. no really big need for rods. matter of fact i just saw a HALTECH on ebay for 1025 shipped. yup 1025 shipped. why not
i know is fustrating we all. but if we all gave up no one would learn. we would blow and call it done. the would be no fi guys just the 1.8T guys (no punn intended) you know what im saying. 
there is a reason why vw didnt make the 2.0 forced. we all know that reason. do we care no. are we going to suffer the reprocutions. you bet. will we be back. SURE THE HELL WILL.
weight the options cuz i hate to see all that fab work go down the drain. you made me believe i can make my own piping and guess what







. 
good luck.


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (turbojeta3)*

I have decided to rebuild. I'll give you all more information when its running strong http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Going to be a nice setup http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

The FTC will only allow timing retard. Melted pistons are from running lean. *my motor went through rods bearings and a crank in Jan. it was not SS related we figure either my oil pump gave or I had a bad bearing in there* If you have any pointers on kazza porn maps or SDS I would appreciate it. My car is still alive but I have stayed out of boost since using a Lambda. The SS system is on its way back to Cali. and SDS on its way here.
I guess you know who, hooked it up huh Evan? 

_Modified by mattstacks at 12:20 PM 7-6-2003_


_Modified by mattstacks at 12:21 PM 7-6-2003_


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (mattstacks)*

I don't know if anything I am going to do is going to be cheap.


----------



## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

are you speaking to me, 
I was just comenting on Scrubby saying you needed to go see , you know who and its time as if you guys are going to Dahgaba to see Yoda, it cought my interest.


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (mattstacks)*

don't worry about it







We were talking about a way i could get it fixed for super cheap but I think I am going a different route


----------



## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

Oh the street way? then.


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (mattstacks)*

no no I am not stealing anything. your taking it the wrong way


----------



## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

Evan,
Would water injection have helped? It seems it may be a way to keep things cool (relatively speaking) in a way that an IC can't. 
I had this argument on the 1.8T forum; their answer there is always get a bigger IC. (Also, most 1.8Ters don't have the slightest idea about tuning. Their idea of tuning is a bigger IC, bigger downpipe, and which chip to get.







) But you know, spraying water is going to cool down the pistons, head and valves, like running rich does, without the necessity for extra oxygen. Just a thought.
I'm running water with my 1.8T even now.


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (JettaRed)*

No, my intercooler was working perfectly. It blew up because i let it go a little lean up top when we turned up the boost and were tuning it. I said do a few runs before i re-write this new map and it blew up. 
(not directed at you Jettared)
It has nothing to do with how good my intercooler is, how good the Split Second is, how good SDS is, who hyped me up on the Split second, or how good SDS is. It has to do with the inexperience of the operator tuning the car. I blew the motor up. "do a few more runs before I load this map" is not cool. The motor is too sensitive to approach with a "run it, it will be fine" attitude. I could have been running Space Shuttle engine managment and blown it up just as fast. Sorry SDS guys, but your knowledge of how good standalone works is based on your knowledge of how to tune and blow up motors. I've got one under my belt. The next won't blow so easy and my attitude towards how it runs will be strict. Meaning, if its running lean don't drive it.


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

well, i guess with the added water in the combustion chamber it would have ran cooler in the lean condition, but the mistake was all me. I'd give it a try but I've got some pistons to buy lol


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

here's the damage:
















































I really blew #2 to bits!!!!!


----------



## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_It has nothing to do with how good my intercooler is, how good the Split Second is, how good SDS is, who hyped me up on the Split second, or how good SDS is. It has to do with the inexperience of the operator tuning the car. I blew the motor up. "do a few more runs before I load this map" is not cool. The motor is too sensitive to approach with a "run it, it will be fine" attitude. I could have been running Space Shuttle engine managment and blown it up just as fast. Sorry SDS guys, but your knowledge of how good standalone works is based on your knowledge of how to tune and blow up motors. I've got one under my belt. The next won't blow so easy and my attitude towards how it runs will be strict. Meaning, if its running lean don't drive it. 


Well said.


----------



## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (Agtronic)*

Or dont drive it in boost.


----------



## PARTY_BOY (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SILVERADO* »_OK PARTYBOY is still a SS man! Buy some spare motors and bus passes!







If you know how to tune ,how come you "leaned it out"







with no boost retard you should have been in 11's a/f ,but you probably already knew that.







You should hang out with the CIS and Digifart guys and swap blown motor stories!!I personally hate blowing motors and the worst thing is the next morning when you HOPE it was all a bad dream!









Grow up http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## KrautFed (Jan 9, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

Evan, that really sucks. We have a complete AEG bottom end for sale for pretty cheap. We got them inspected and block, rods, and crank are in perfect condition. You might want to go ABA, but let me know.


----------



## blkjettavr6 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (KrautFed)*

Technical Difficulties










_Modified by blkjettavr6 at 8:43 PM 7-6-2003_


----------



## Scrubby (May 13, 2002)

*Re: (blkjettavr6)*

Hey Evan ,those pistons look better than Tonys. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## turbojeta3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: (blkjettavr6)*











_Modified by turbojeta3 at 5:45 PM 7-6-2003_


----------



## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (Scrubby)*

Willy, he does have a good point, he seems to be passionate about the fact that it is not very likely that you are going to get good results out of any thing but the proper fueling system. He is trying very hard to make that clear. 
It seems that he does know a good amount about tuning cars, either negative or positive he is right. And can provide some good information if you are willing to take some criticizim. 
I understand that it is hard to justify spending the money for such an expensive fueling system but it is what needs to be done. We are all spending so much money on all this equipment just to stop at the most important part, how it runs for instance, you blow a piston due to detonation, fueling. Then you have to tear you hole motor apart and clean it all out if not then you will probably tear through you turbo next all this money is wasted. I have found that motornic fueling system contiuesly calibrates itself to try and get back to a 14.7 A/F. So you are always fitting the computer and you never really know what might happen next.
Just my 2 cents ban me from this thread as well, but what he is saying is true.


----------



## CorradoFANATIC (Feb 22, 2001)

*Re: (mattstacks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mattstacks* »_ I have found that motornic fueling system contiuesly calibrates itself to try and get back to a 14.7 A/F. So you are always fitting the computer and you never really know what might happen next.


Not if you disconnect the o2 sensors?


----------



## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (CorradoFANATIC)*

Say later to your cat, and i will see you at the E-Check or what ever you want to call your local enviromental nazi's


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (mattstacks)*

my car won't ever pass emmissions because i removed the secondary air injection. Besides, with the PSC it idled like a champ at 14.7 afr and cruising the wideband read 14.7 - 15.5. No problem with poor emmisions or the cat. 
The PSC works fine, it was a user error. I'll show you when I get this put back together.
Oh, and did I mention knock sensor #1 is bad? I assume that's what the vag com means when it says "knock sensor 1, low voltage". Just found that out from reading the codes
Whoops, whoops, and whoops


----------



## TURBOPHIL (Jan 31, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

Yo Evan, again I am sorry to hear of your demise, the tone on this thread seem to be putting blame on the SS system, I have to dissagree with a few of the guys here, it doesnt matter what system you have installed in your ride, the bottom line is "garbage in garbage out". I plan on running my SS system with my setup, mainly because of price and ease of installation. I do plan on taking it easy until I get it to the dyno shop. I will only get rid of the SS system if by some reason it cannot allow me to reach my goal of 300hp. We all make mistakes, some are costly than others, but you will always fail if you don't learn from your mistakes. Get a bottom end and put everything together and tune your SS properly. I know a few guys here must have blown a motor or 2 on other management system. Next time lower the comp. and play it safe.


----------



## blkjettavr6 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (TURBOPHIL)*

Technical Difficulties










_Modified by blkjettavr6 at 8:43 PM 7-6-2003_


----------



## blkjettavr6 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (turbojeta3)*

Technical Difficulties










_Modified by blkjettavr6 at 8:44 PM 7-6-2003_


----------



## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (TURBOPHIL)*

O.K. so what you are doing is setting the PSC to trick the computer into thinking that its air flow is less so it adds less fuel, perfect if and only if you need to take away fuel ,to add fuel say at 7 PSI your are adding voltage to the MAF signal to trick the computer into thinking it needs to add more fuel, are we agreed on this?
We are all getting a signal to high ,at least I am, at this point what does the PSC do? Can the ECU still add more fuel, I would assume the signal to high is the MAF not being able to read a flow that high so is the ECU set up to still run fuel at a higher voltage?
Say you put the numbers as high as they go which I tried, Spli Second stated that the highest the numbers go is the longest you can trick the ECU into opening the injectors, what happens if in mide run you get a signal to high and the ECU drops into its MAF signal to high MAP and lets you car spit lean , I may not understand how the motronic system runs fueling fully I certainly do not claim to but those are the variables I cannot fight any more, that is the point i am trying to make.
I am in no way trying to take away from how much it sucks to lose your motor there is a lot of work involved, I feel for you, I have sat there many times calling myself and absolute idiot for getting involved with this hobbie/ way of life call it what you will. I apoligize if I have made light of how much that sucks over this thread, I just dont believe in the stock fuel system any loger. 
At least i would say that 30# injectors are not enough for the fuel you need maybe even a bigger fpr is needed as well say a 4 bar atleast. 
I would say that the kit JEFNES just made is a lot better way of doing this.


----------



## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (mattstacks)*

all in good debate!



_Modified by mattstacks at 8:54 PM 7-6-2003_


----------



## turbojeta3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: (mattstacks)*











_Modified by turbojeta3 at 5:47 PM 7-6-2003_


----------



## PARTY_BOY (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: (mattstacks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mattstacks* »_At least i would say that 30# injectors are not enough for the fuel you need maybe even a bigger fpr is needed as well say a 4 bar atleast. 


I agree.I run the 30# injectors and 4bar.15lbs is about all you can run on these.This is at 90+% duty cycle.I very soon will be upgrading to 42# injectors larger turbo and intercooler.


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (PARTY_BOY)*

Matt, your maxing out your MAF, not the PSC's fault. You can use any size MAF with the PSC - what about a 4" maf?


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_Matt, your maxing out your MAF, not the PSC's fault. You can use any size MAF with the PSC - what about a 4" maf? 

exactly... i'm at 8psi on a T3/T04E w/ stock maf, and haven't maxed it out yet..


----------



## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (Anand20v)*

I do know it is not the PSC's fault I was usiong it as an example, second if you add it up you got PSC, which they took back no problems, I dont mean to bad mouth the product or its company
PSC 310.00 with the ESC function
bigger MAF and chip say 400.00
not to mention injectors and FPR 
your at at least 710.00 
Thats crazy, five hundred less then S HHH D ont S ay, with out the tunability. 
I was getting MAF singnal to high and motronic was bouncing back to a saved fuel map that was too lean. Like I said though before the kit JEfnes made work better becuase he is taking into consideration timing and placing the changes on the chip, at that point why would need the unit?


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (mattstacks)*

In my case it made sense because I already have the Neuspeed Supercharger chip


----------



## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

Is it pulling enough timing for 10n PSI and stock compression at the right time?


----------



## blkjettavr6 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

Big Technical Difficulties










_Modified by blkjettavr6 at 8:44 PM 7-6-2003_


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (mattstacks)*

I have no idea, I never looked with the vag com.
I should have, but I didn't know any better. I will next time. If its not enough, then something better is in the works i guess. 
All i want is my car running right now. I still pay for it, i might as well use it. I'm not jumping to buy standalone as I have used the PSC alot over the last month and I have alot of faith in what it can do. I don't have too much faith in my own discretion, thus "take a couple runs" and my new ashtrays. 
I am admitting i was stupid. I am not making any claims about what works and what doesn't. I'll fix it and get everyhting working and tell you what works if it does or doesn't. For now all claims of what I need are all speculation. I just need to be more careful next time and not be so gung-ho cause its running


----------



## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

I was just doing the same thing with my motor three days ago, I remeber being at 9 psi and looking back at the Lambda as my freind was messing with the software and seeing a 15. Im all yelling at him going a hundred miles an hour, cuase it does that wether I like it or not, and a cop gets on right as I pass him, we have laptops, one for Vagcom and the other for the PSC and the lamda boy all hooked up to a converter , not to mention my guages in the front, I couldnt belive it, after I did not get pulled over it was some funny ****. I couldnt imajene being pulled over with all that equipment in the car trying to convince the officer I was doing anything other then trying to go really fast My poor car.
The time my motor went The guy that owns the shop I work on my car at was driving it as I sat in the passenger seat, I was convinced it was running lean and he had to see for himself. We go up one exit and turn around to get back on the highway, there is a 360 dgree on ramp. At the end of that ramp he flys into boost oil light chirping and everthing car runs odviuosly lean as we get off at the next ramp 
I ask him what the hell he was doing and what the hells is that niose when he steps on the gas, he looks at me streight faced and says I dont know but it wasnt good
I lough my ass offf at that today, its all in good fun and learning.
BLKJETTA I really dont know what your on about but,, yea !!


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (mattstacks)*

we were driving, me in the passenger seat holding a laptop and watching the wideband zip tied to my air vents and i knew it was getting lean up top when i turned it up and i was writing a map to correct it. I said do a few runs and let me see when it breaks lean and how much to correct. It was fast, then we laid into it again and it started breaking. I guess that was detonation, but after that we had no cylinder 2. Moral of the story is turn boost up ever so slightly and start not with stock values in the empty cells but super rich values. Oh well, I'll do better next time. At least I am not getting graded on this like in school or something. Sometimes though you'd think I was...


----------



## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

I was in no way trying to say that you did or should have done anything different, if it is at all like school it is the middle if the semester and I am sitting next to you cause this is isnt something you learn over night, I didnt mind when my motor seized I had taken the head off and apart twice the damb thing finally just went while I was runnin it in the shop, I think I tore it apart three times before that, I learned so much from it it was like it was meant to happen.


----------



## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (mattstacks)*

BlkJetta you are a total fool young boy and HAVE A LOT TO LEARN about engines and tuning,,sorry a previously installed SC is not going to "prefracure" your pistons,and you have never tuned a car in your life,you are a donkey.I realized that IT IS HUMAN NATURE FOR PEOPLE TO NOT LIKE WHAT THEY DON'T WANT TO HEAR,WHETHER IT IS THE TRUTH OR NOT.Don't get SDS then get another type of Standalone,whatever I don't care it's your $$ and your motor,but if you are relying on PARTYBOY (who just blew) and BlkJetta (who is a totally clueless idiot)to build and help you tune good luck,your going to need it.







If you can't see the message I am trying to get through(that if youi want reliable boost,you need a more capable fuel system)then you are CLUELESS!







There are 10,11,12,13 sec.VW's here on the Tex with SDS,hwhere aRE THE SS GUYS?And what are your times and BlkJetta,what is your time since you know so much?15's?Kook


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*

What is the message you are trying to tell me? Not anyone else, just me


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*

just for the record, mattstacks and SILVERADO, PLEASE *PLEASE* space out your posts and use some more punctuation... its rediculously hard to read what you're writing.


----------



## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*

I believe they are brothers and he took this as an attack on how they went about building that car as well as him as a person, this is a debate about fuel systems at this point and not what was done to that car.


----------



## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*

I see a lot of "EDITS"hmmmmmmmmmm.







I already read what you posted about me Blkjetta guy,love me or hate me I am only trying to help.....for free I might add....


----------



## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (mattstacks)*

Ok cool 
I was on two other boards, a drum and bass one and Ohiovw.
I tend to just type and send.
My appoligies, I do get careless with my typing.
What would my english professors think.


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*

honestly, one of the best things i have found is talking to people on the phone about stuff, i spendt about an hour with turbojetta 3 , kirk from PTR uinjection and got EVERY stand alone quesiton answered, not even biased, just factual, i have yet to make the hawaii call but i will wheni have to!!!! split second had me on the phone with a newbie that told me he couldnt even use the software, tech support is big in my book , thats why SDS ios gettig my vote as of now, anything can change, but as of now im sold on it
bye bye SS i just ripped it out and sold it, i might add it was DOPE for fuel, very adjustable, but i woulda ended up frying my engine using a butt dyno and autometer egt gauge, i need more than that, yeah you can make it work, liek many things, but it wasnt for me, besides, it doesnt get much easier than turning a old school rotary know liek on SDS!!! LOL how easier canit get thatn that?


----------



## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*

SILVERADO, did your name use to be *speed51133*?








Seriously, you guys need to calm down a bit. The moderators on this forum are pretty lenient. This thread would have be shut down after the first F-U over on the 1.8T forum!


_Modified by JettaRed at 9:07 PM 7-6-2003_


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (JettaRed)*

Prove to me that my ECU is not pulling enough timing. 
Give me some factual numbers that will tell me where my timing needs to be under boost. From vacuum to high boost. 
When my car is running again I will log some runs with the VAG-com and tell you exactly what my timing vlaues are. Something I neglected to do before because I didn't know any better.


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (JettaRed)*

honestly i mean no siding or anything, but if anyones given me more knowledge of fabrication it has been speed, for tuning and stuff 2kjetta,turbojetta3 and siolverado, 
i totally agree with them, they are veterans, they wentthru the pahse im now avoiding of trying andmaking stuff work, tey may be considered ass holes to many, butto me knowledgabel than lot sof more poeple on this board, they give the facts people dont wanna hear, liek when you wanna believe motrnic is gonna be good to 18 psi but they say no, can it be done? sure, if you really are good at fooling ecu's, but for most of the beginners arond here like myself, i liek it pain and straighforwards how they give it. tahts why i sold my piggy and am going back to getting SDS soon,


----------



## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: (mattstacks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mattstacks* »_Ok cool 
I was on two other boards, a drum and bass one and Ohiovw.
I tend to just type and send.
My appoligies, I do get careless with my typing.
*What would my english professors think.*










LOL. Let me help:
"Ok*,* cool*.* 
I was on two other boards*:* a drum and bass one and Ohiovw. (BTW, that's three.)
I tend to just type and send.
My *apologies;* I do get careless with my typing.
What would my *E*nglish professors think*?*







"
Your poor English professors!











_Modified by JettaRed at 9:22 PM 7-6-2003_


----------



## blkjettavr6 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SILVERADO* »_BlkJetta you are a total fool young boy and HAVE A LOT TO LEARN about engines and tuning,,sorry a previously installed SC is not going to "prefracure" your pistons,and you have never tuned a car in your life,you are a donkey.I realized that IT IS HUMAN NATURE FOR PEOPLE TO NOT LIKE WHAT THEY DON'T WANT TO HEAR,WHETHER IT IS THE TRUTH OR NOT.Don't get SDS then get another type of Standalone,whatever I don't care it's your $$ and your motor,but if you are relying on PARTYBOY (who just blew) and BlkJetta (who is a totally clueless idiot)to build and help you tune good luck,your going to need it.







If you can't see the message I am trying to get through(that if youi want reliable boost,you need a more capable fuel system)then you are CLUELESS!







There are 10,11,12,13 sec.VW's here on the Tex with SDS,hwhere aRE THE SS GUYS?And what are your times and BlkJetta,what is your time since you know so much?15's?Kook









Yeh what the **** do you know about me? Nothing at all! You come here and i will show you exactly what i know.


----------



## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (blkjettavr6)*

Yea, yea, tell me about it. Drum *And* bass is a type of music.
So that is two *other* boards. 
You got me though on the spelling and the cap.
After that I should concede that the Nuespeed S/C is worth the money.


----------



## blkjettavr6 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (mattstacks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mattstacks* »_
After that I should concede that the Nuespeed S/C is worth the money. 


HAHAHAHAHAHA ROTFLMAO


----------



## GTI RB (Aug 25, 2000)

*Re: (blkjettavr6)*

D Wiz- Yes i did sell my car to carmax and bought a 92 GTI G60. But the only reason i sold was outta frustration. I would love to have that car back. However, i love my A2s now, they just have more characeter to them







.
2kjettaguy- I remember when you use to im me when you had your SC, asking about my turbo setup. I never thought you would do all this. Definately dont do what i did and wuss out. 
If i was you, i would check the crank and cyclindar walls for scoring. If they are fine then just go to VW parts and buy some new pistons and put them in, thats all i did. They already have the rings installed on the piston. Either that or find another AEG bottom end.
Oh and its funny, because i think my #3 piston and your #2 piston are twins....check it out...









But ya know what...all yall dont know nothing...anyone whos anyone knows an A2 GTI VR6 is the ultimate







. Hahaha








Good luck Evan, take some time off, the more you think about it, the more frustrated you get. Dont make rushed decisions







.


----------



## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (blkjettavr6)*

Okay that's enough guys, the F/I forum is better than this no? Common, we sound like a bunch of kids.


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (Agtronic)*

Thanks GTI RB. I did IM you alot, didn't I







I guess we pulled similar mistakes. I was about to sell it, but I still want that 200whp dyno sheet. I like the 2.0 and I like how I've made it feel. Selling would just mean alot of moeny lost. Tommorow is search for pistons day, as I will be rebuilding this. Not sure if I am going toi forged route or low comp headgasket / stock pistons route. The cylinder walls are A-ok. I don't plan to push the car that hard, but I guess I did.
What I want to know is how am I supposed to tune for timing when I can't hear knock and one good feel will blow up the motor? Is there some magic out there? I guess I have heard knock at some point and everyone's described it to me but I can't say I can recall any point in time which my motor did it. Therefore, I can't look at the timing values on the VAG-com and say "oh, I am ok." Someone said 25 degrees isn't enough - what is?


----------



## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

25° total timing under boost on a 2.0L with 10:1 compression is way too much. Some guys with 1.8Ts running 22 psi run up to 22 degrees, and they end up breaking rods and stuff (due to PCP too close to TDC). I'm not sure, so don't take this too seriously, but I think @ the torque peak @ maximum boost, you'll need to have something like 17° TOTAL.
EDIT : The only way to really detect silent detonation is to read the plugs right after a maximum load run. Shutting off the engine right away.
I don't know how people develop effective timing curves. Everyone I've ever asked seems to just guess, and it usually works, or they add more timing until they get to the point where power stops going up and then they back off a few degrees.


_Modified by Agtronic at 6:47 PM 7-6-2003_


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (Agtronic)*

Are those #'s advanced from TDC or retarded? When you say "total," what does that mean?


----------



## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

Retarded


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (Agtronic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Agtronic* »_25° total timing under boost on a 2.0L with 10:1 compression is way too much. Some guys with 1.8Ts running 22 psi run up to 22 degrees, and they end up breaking rods and stuff (due to PCP too close to TDC). I'm not sure, so don't take this too seriously, but I think @ the torque peak @ maximum boost, you'll need to have something like 17° TOTAL.

So, 25° of retard under boost is too much? By too much, do you mean its too advanced and needs to be further retarded?
At max boost I need 17° total? What are you totaling? If I am reading this correctly, 25° of retard is too much, but 17° of retard is right on? Those 2 statements totally contradict eachother. 17° is _more_ timing. 
Feel free to correct me, or help me understand. You can tell I can't and this is why adjustable timing isn't going to do me any good until I know it


----------



## GTI RB (Aug 25, 2000)

*Re: (mattstacks)*

What i dont get Evan, is how you didnt hear this detonation, i guess i dont undertsand how "silent detonation" works exactly.
The fact that your one knock sensor wasnt functioning correctly definately doesnt help. But i will tell you, i could always hear my detonation loud as day when it started, and i would just back off. Its easiest to hear it with the windows up. Its funny that my engine lasted longer than yours and all i had for fuel and timing was a FPR and ATP chip with 310 injectors, it always ran like crap tho. Either too rich or too lean. 
Hope you figure this all out man, you definately have the hardware aspect down, once you get the tuning right you will be golden. Probably the fastest MK4 AEG Turbo in MD too. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (GTI RB)*

Its like hail. I've never seen it. 
pre-detonation - I've never heard it and said "that's predetonation!"


----------



## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (GTI RB)*

Silverado sure talks a lot of smack for having a car that barely breaks into the 13's with sds.This car made it there with a cartech fmu and a stock chip


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*

the crappy part is that it blew up without even going BOOM. It just jerked hard and that was the end of it. I can say it was still fast as crap on 3 cylinders driving home.


----------



## PARTY_BOY (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

17deg total advance from zero.At 15lbs of boost I'd usually see about 15deg,but I'd see 11-12 just after I rehooked up the battery.


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (PARTY_BOY)*

what does zero represent?


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Bad Habit* »_Silverado sure talks a lot of smack for having a car that barely breaks into the 13's with sds.This car made it there with a cartech fmu and a stock chip








iam not siding bad habit, but remember that he did 17.2, lets say high 16;s before that, to do 13.8 is a big jump
its liek when poeple tell me my 14.6 car is slow, well it was 17.3 so it goes to show the work done, i know when SDS'ed my "heavy" MK4 will hit 13's no doubt,. i can now, just dont wanna turn up the boost on atp chip







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
thats how i rat ecars, before and after turbo times, whoever syhaved off the most , impressed me the most, probbaly liek your a3, imguessing it was a low 16 car, now high 13, good work, that sabout 2.5 seconds you took off, honestly thats impressive!!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif















edit: ill post a pic of my car too,im bored what the hell!!!









__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view









before

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view









after








i just felt liek posting some pics







, and as a cheerer upper for evan to not let him forget the work we did








edit: cough cough check signature cough cough










_Modified by D Wiz at 10:25 PM 7-6-2003_


----------



## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_
So, 25° of retard under boost is too much? By too much, do you mean its too advanced and needs to be further retarded?
At max boost I need 17° total? What are you totaling? If I am reading this correctly, 25° of retard is too much, but 17° of retard is right on? Those 2 statements totally contradict eachother. 17° is _more_ timing. 
Feel free to correct me, or help me understand. You can tell I can't and this is why adjustable timing isn't going to do me any good until I know it

No, it's not timing *retard*, it's timing *advance* you want. Retarding timing reduces power. 15 degrees advance means the plug sparks when the piston is 15 degrees BEFORE Top Dead Center.
Fuel burns as a consistent rate, so the earlier you start the burn, the more complete it will be (unless you detonate). There is a good description of spark timing at How Stuff Works.
Here are some excerpts:

_Quote »_To make the best use of the fuel, the spark should occur before the piston reaches the top of the compression stroke, so by the time the piston starts down into its power stroke the pressures are high enough to start producing useful work. 


_Quote »_The time that the fuel takes to burn is roughly constant. But the speed of the pistons increases as the engine speed increases. This means that the faster the engine goes, the earlier the spark has to occur. This is called spark advance: The faster the engine speed, the more advance is required.


_Quote »_by retarding the spark timing (moving the spark closer to the top of the compression stroke), maximum cylinder pressures and temperatures can be reduced. Lowering temperatures helps reduce the formation of nitrogen oxides (NOx), which are a regulated pollutant. Retarding the timing may also eliminate knocking; some cars that have knock sensors will do this automatically.


----------



## PARTY_BOY (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_what does zero represent? 

Top dead dead center.


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (JettaRed)*

Thanks Bill, i was just about to hop onto that site. 
So I am actually looking for spark advance under boost to prevent the pressurized mixture from detonating prior to ignition. That, and maintaining an advance with rpms. 
I still don't get total though.... what's totalled?


----------



## PARTY_BOY (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: (PARTY_BOY)*

Beer is good


----------



## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (PARTY_BOY)*

Turbulent mixtures can burn faster than normally aspirated engines but the denser the mixture the slower the burn. While contrary and confusing this normally leaves the situation not needing to burn quite so soon. The ignition curve can therefore benefit from a small retard function as boost rises and the mixture becomes both more dense and more turbulent. With todays technology this can only be accomplished with aftermarket engine management.
Corkey Bell 
I meant retard from 21 degrees when I said retard.
Total


----------



## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (mattstacks)*

At first, it's confusing 'cause we talk about advance AND retard at the same time ... basically the timing is always advanced, but we retard (or take away some of the advance) with boost in order to prevent detonation. 
Total Timing = Base timing (-) boost retard
A N/A engine likes to start around 12 degrees Before Top Dead Center and gradually increase to 30-32 degrees by ~3200-3500 rpm. So, if you had the throttle barely in just cruising @ 3500 RPM in vacuum, your TOTAL timing would be something like 30° BTDC, but let's say you have a turbo and have a system with a MAP-Based timing table, when stomp on the gas and you're boosting 14 psi, all of a sudden, you'll have 30° (3500rpm) minus the programmed RETARD value of say, 15°, so it's 30° - 15° = 15° BTDC total timing.
Hope that helps!


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (Agtronic)*

that makes sense to read it from another person and not an article. So, can you explain how pre-detonation relates to where exactly your timing is set, and explain how to fix it? Use my blow motor as an example assuming timing needs to be retarded more.


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

I think I just got it. The mixture burned in a NA car burns slower in comparison to the mixture of a boosted car. 10psi worth of air and fuel ignites faster than 1psi worth of air and fuel. Therefore the spark plug does not need to fire as far in advance of top dead center to make max power. If it does ignite too soon It slams the piston, thus making the "knock"? With boost timing needs to be pulled back to make max power.
So a lean mixture will ignite faster than a richer mixture? If i was running lean my mixture was igniting before it should have and hitting the pistons hard. What caused my piston to burn at this point though? 
Tell me if I've got this right or not...


----------



## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

Edit : I didn't read you second post when I typed this. But yes, maybe you had two problems going on in the same time.
Well, I only understand the basics. So I can't really embellish on that too much, unfortunately. I'm in the same boat as you, gonna put all my ish together and hope to God it doesn't blow.
But that's one thing I really don't understand. How can ignition timing change the fact that the combustion self ignited. I find it quite confusing. And I'm a trained mechanic too!







The ignition stuff was clear to me when I studied it, but there's so much to it that it's easy to forget.
With that being said, it appears that your pistons melted due to the A/F ratio (as you mentioned) but the cracked ringlands / skirts looks more like it could have been caused by having too much lead. And as we know, too much lead (or timing advance) leads to Peak Cylinder Pressure occuring too early in the stroke, when the crank/rod angle isn't in a position to convert the pressure into rotational energy. The Honda guys lift heads, the 1.8T guys break rods, and we 2.0L guys break pistons.










_Modified by Agtronic at 8:40 PM 7-6-2003_


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (Agtronic)*

That makes alot of sense, I think i get it now. But, I still don't understand how self ignition of the mixture relates to ignition timing assuming you can't use ignition timing to stop it, only high octane and lower compression ratio


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

25 or whatever i said before. 86 that number cause I have no idea what I was looking for when i was looking in the vag com. It wasn't until about 10 minutes ago that i fully understood ignition timing. I'll log it when its back together, for now I can only guess


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

what happened to Jefnes3's post?


----------



## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_what happened to Jefnes3's post? 

Damn, I was looking forward to reading it too!







Never seen a dumb post from him EVAR!
But you're right, and I'm totally stumped as to what timing has to do with detonation. I'm probably mixing pre-ignition and detonation. It's not the same thing, I think preignition is not really a problem if you have good gas and your intercooler stays cold.


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (Agtronic)*

Ha, i got it on email notification if need be








He basically said "you couldn't tell ignition timing from chicken noodle soup if you tried" then i guess he deleted it finding that i did figure it out. 
If anyone can clarify the terms "pre-detonation," "pre-ignition," and "detonation" that would be cool. I might have more of a clue what I am talking about


----------



## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

I'm going to go upstairs and dig up my books from mechanic's school.


----------



## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (Agtronic)*

Here is my take on it, we are running boost on a motor that controls several things by the amount of fuel that is distributed into the combustion chamber. more fuel can help to cool the temperature down in the chamber while giving the spark something dense to ignite. The timing is when and how low long the car sparks. If the car sparks earlier then there is less fuel in the chamber to ignite, this makes for a hotter ignition and along with pressure and the wrong point of the pistons stroke can cause the piston to break. fuel under pressure will ignite sooner there fore you would need to take the timing back under pressure to allow for the piston to make its full stroke and compression before ignition takes place.
Timing advanced and pressure allows the the spark to ignite what is in the chamber sooner at the worst possible time when the piston is in its up ward stroke so the top of the piston goes becuase the ignition is not at the top of its srtock than all the pressure of the ignition is put on that cylinder. The crank is not going to break nor will the rod so there is only that piece. 
That is why we were trying to say that timing control is also needed. 
sorry its late 


_Modified by mattstacks at 12:40 AM 7-7-2003_


----------



## Scrubby (May 13, 2002)

*Re: (mattstacks)*

How does ignition timing control how much fuel is injected into the cylider?


----------



## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

*Re: (Scrubby)*

hey man i didnt read all the posts cause it jumped to 6 pages overnight, but like i said before find a used early aba motor, cause they seem to be a bit stronger, keep stock compression or lower it, and just take it easy with the tuning. If all youre lookin to get is 200whp thats very easy! And the car is always going to be a money pit no matter how much you dont want it to be! But i must also commend you on sticking with the car, you did alot of nice things to make the kit work for you and its a shame to give up. Trust me ive been tempted alot! With that said, i blew up my motor! Whooo hooo! Now the real ****ty part is im comin back to jersey in a week and my car barely putters! Oh yeah and i have tec2 so it can happen to us all!
Todd


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (turbodub)*

so you live out in cali or jersey?
i remmerb you froma few times at island, i had the 2.0T MK4 silver, i love the turbodub setuo, crazy whp on stock block, just shows what good tuning can do

what are you at liek 270whp on stock block now?


----------



## MadGT1 (Jul 22, 2000)

*Re: (D Wiz)*

just wondering .. what are you turbo guys (SDS,SS etc) are getting on a tank of fuel.
I know this shouldn't be an issue since alot of you guys drive it only track or weekend .. but hearing all the bragging on fuel managment .. i am just a little curious on what you guys get on a tank of fuel. I will be heading this path real soon so i like an idea.


----------



## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (Agtronic)*

Here ... I found some stuff. It's not all that great, but helps to give an idea. My teachers at school were much more clear in their explainations, but it's the best I can do from here. 
---8<-------------------------------------------------------------------
Taken from : Modern Automotive Technology by James E. Duffy
*ABNORMAL COMBUSTION*
*Detonation*
_Detonation_ results when part of the unburend fuel miuxture explodes violently. This is the most severe and engine-damaging type of abnormal combustion.
_Engine knock_ is a symptom of detonation. The pressure rises so quickly that parts of the engine vibrate. Detonation sounds like a hammer hitting the side of the engine. End gas (unburned portion of mixture) is heated and pressurized for an extended period. Normal combustion is too slow because of a fuel mixture problem, lack of turbulence, or fuel distribution problem. This causes the end gas to explode with a "bang" (knock).
Detonation can greatly increase the pressure and heat in the engine combustion chamber. It can crack cylinder heads, blow head gaskets, burn pistons, and shatter spark plugs.
*Preignition*
_Preignition_ results when an overheated surface in the combustion chamber ignites the fuel mixture. Termed _surface ignition_, a "hot sport" (oversized bit of carbon, sharp edge, hot exhaust valve) causes the mixture to burn prematurely.
A *ping* or a mild knock is a light tapping noise that can be heard during preignition. It is NOT as loud nor as harmful as detonation knock.
Preignition is similar to detonation, but the actions are reversed. Detonation begins *AFTER* the start of a normal combustion. Preignition begins *BEFORE* the start of normal combustion.
Preignition, ping, or mild knock is very common to the modern automobile. Some auto makers say that some preignition is normal , especially when accelerating under load.
-------8<----------------------------------------------------------------
Taken from : High Performance Honda Builder's Handbook (S-A Design)
by Joe Pettitt. (There are three newer more modern versions of this book, GREAT tuning talkin in here! (The Honda guys know how to tune!)
*Ignition Timing Curves*
Ignition advance is a number of cranfhaft degrees before the static ignition timing at which the spark occurs. As Rob Smith most insistently pointed out, the optimum timing of the spark is the number of crankshaft degrees that builds Peak Cylinder Pressure at 12 to 14 degrees after top dead center. This advance number changes because as engine speed increases, there is less time for the flame front to consume the fuel and build pressure in the cylinder, so you have to advance the point at which you initiate ignition.
Fortunately flame speed increases almost in exact proportion with engine speed. Theory goes, as the turbulence increases in the cumbustion chamber, more of the fuel turns to vapor, allowing it to react with the oxygen more quickly. Due to this relationship, the amount of advance required is relatively stable.
Once the engine reaches a certain rpm, the amount of ignition advance the engine likes tends to stabilize at a certain number of degrees. Before that point, it tends to like various amounts of advance, or lead, as some car guys like to call it.
There are two stages of timing advance. First is the initial advance, which is the amount of fixed advance given for start-up. Added to initial timing advance is a secondary advance need to balance engine rpm and peak cylinder pressure. On some cars, this done mechanically with weights and springs that advance the timing as engine rpm increases.
Bellow about 2500 to 3000 rpm, more crankshaft degrees from the point of ignition are required for the cylinder pressure to reach maximum pressure than it does above, say, 3000 rpm. You have to feed in timing advance. The exact amount and proportion depends on the engine. Hondas that have an efficient combustion chamber like a fairly steep rate of advance, reaching total advance somewhat quicker than other engine designs that have less-efficient combustion chambers.
In addition to adding ignition timing advance as the engine comes off idle and accelerates, you must also control the amount of ignition advance for various loadings on the engine as you drive it. The rate of burn changes with the density of the air/fuel charge.
At part throttle, the manifold vacuum is high and allows little air into the cylinder, requiring a proportionally smaller amount of fuel. Actually, it's a little less than proportional. Under light loads, you don't need 12.7:1 air/fuel rations; you can get mixtures far leaner than stoichiometric or 14.7:1. Anyway, everythings just loafing along it takes more time for the air and fuel to react. You need to advance the ignition timing under these circumstances.
Most computer-controlled cars, and the Honda is no exception, have a manifold absolute pressure sensor (MAP) [edit : we don't, but most standalones do - agtronic] that tells the computer what is the load situation is. When it sees high manifold pressure (low absolute pressure), it moves the timing in a little to keep the engine running smooth.


----------



## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (mattstacks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mattstacks* »_Here is my take on it, we are running boost on a motor that controls several things by the amount of fuel that is distributed into the combustion chamber. more fuel can help to cool the temperature down in the chamber while giving the spark something dense to ignite. The timing is when and how low long the car sparks. If the car sparks earlier then there is less fuel in the chamber to ignite, this makes for a hotter ignition and along with pressure and the wrong point of the pistons stroke can cause the piston to break. fuel under pressure will ignite sooner there fore you would need to take the timing back under pressure to allow for the piston to make its full stroke and compression before ignition takes place.
Timing advanced and pressure allows the the spark to ignite what is in the chamber sooner at the worst possible time when the piston is in its up ward stroke so the top of the piston goes becuase the ignition is not at the top of its srtock than all the pressure of the ignition is put on that cylinder. The crank is not going to break nor will the rod so there is only that piece. 
That is why we were trying to say that timing control is also needed. 


You're right, but there is a small detail. Ignition control doesn't allow you to adjust spark duration. It's a spark and that's it.


----------



## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (Scrubby)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scrubby* »_How does ignition timing control how much fuel is injected into the cylider?

There is absolutely no relation between the two.


----------



## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (turbodub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *turbodub* »_hey man i didnt read all the posts cause it jumped to 6 pages overnight, but like i said before find a used early aba motor, cause they seem to be a bit stronger, keep stock compression or lower it, and just take it easy with the tuning. If all youre lookin to get is 200whp thats very easy! And the car is always going to be a money pit no matter how much you dont want it to be! But i must also commend you on sticking with the car, you did alot of nice things to make the kit work for you and its a shame to give up. Trust me ive been tempted alot! With that said, i blew up my motor! Whooo hooo! Now the real ****ty part is im comin back to jersey in a week and my car barely putters! Oh yeah and i have tec2 so it can happen to us all!
Todd

Good post. We all know how hard 2kjettaguy worked to get this thing running. It's easy to talk, it's a lot harder to actually put something together and get it running on the street. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

Can you guys see the pics?


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (MadGT1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MadGT1* »_just wondering .. what are you turbo guys (SDS,SS etc) are getting on a tank of fuel.
I know this shouldn't be an issue since alot of you guys drive it only track or weekend .. but hearing all the bragging on fuel managment .. i am just a little curious on what you guys get on a tank of fuel. I will be heading this path real soon so i like an idea.
well since its fully adjaustabel fuel and sprak, you can run as lean as you want,
ask spooled 2 liter, does 12's easily all day and says his gas mileage is better than before, just run lean in light load and mileage shoudl be good as stock


----------



## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (D Wiz)*

Exactly, adding a little more advance in the mid-vacuum ranges helps a lot, as does running a 14.7:1 (or leaner) under same ranges. You can get better mileage by running 15+:1 but above 14.7:1 you're putting out more emissions.


----------



## Scrubby (May 13, 2002)

*Re: (Agtronic)*

That was my point ,Its hard sometime for people who dont work with this stuff everyday to know what it takes to make a controlled explosion in an engine, And sometimes there is a lot of incorrect, misleading, or contradicting information. Evan had it figured out,and planned out. I want to see what the timing values are on that chip though.His old plugs were toasted but it could have happened on the turbo setup to, but its too late now. He ll get it figured and hopefully come back stronger.


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: (MadGT1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MadGT1* »_just wondering .. what are you turbo guys (SDS,SS etc) are getting on a tank of fuel.

i'm gettin right aroudn 190-230 on a tank... thats still running very rich in vaccuum, and mostly "city"(errr non-highway) driivng... before i would get around 270-310/tank


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: (Agtronic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Agtronic* »_
You're right, but there is a small detail. Ignition control doesn't allow you to adjust spark duration. It's a spark and that's it.

Actually, there are some aftermarket ignitions, e.g. Ignition Solutions, that claim to have multiple spark pulses for more complete burning. I don't know how much they really work.


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: (JettaRed)*

i know the audi 1.8t guys found that the spark w/ the IS coils are weaker than stock, and giving quite as good of a combustion, or something to that extent


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (Anand20v)*

Thanks for all the info guys - I am glad I understand this stuff now. Even with a standalone system I still don't feel like I would be able to control everything to the degree needed. I mean there are always going to be those situations where something doesn't work as planned and that's when she goes boom. That said, stronger internals seem to make incredible sense to me as someone who is learning all of this the hard way. Whats to say I won't melt another stock one? Even with Standalone, even with everyone's help there will always be times when things don't work like they should.


----------



## TheDeer (Sep 21, 2000)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_Thanks for all the info guys - I am glad I understand this stuff now. Even with a standalone system I still don't feel like I would be able to control everything to the degree needed. I mean there are always going to be those situations where something doesn't work as planned and that's when she goes boom. That said, stronger internals seem to make incredible sense to me as someone who is learning all of this the hard way. Whats to say I won't melt another stock one? Even with Standalone, even with everyone's help there will always be times when things don't work like they should. 

There is nothing to say you won't melt forged internals either. Just make sure the fuel is right, or you can melt any internals that you put in there when running lean.


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (TheDeer)*

Oh, I know that. But forged holds up better to detonation and pre-igntion, correct? 
I am just trying to make the decision, as my motor's got 4 blank holes in it right now and I need to start making some phone calls. I hope to have it running before I make the next monthly on it


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_Oh, I know that. But forged holds up better to detonation and pre-igntion, correct? 
evan get a new ecu before forged, if you roasted OEM ones that quick, forged aintgonna make a difference since we are still earning the whole af curve thing, dont think of it that way liek forged holding up better to dertonation, im sure it does, but liek i said before, whats forged internals without management to realy use them?


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (D Wiz)*

With standalone I have even more chances to make mistakes. Mistakes that may cost another piston, more downtime, etc. These motors seem so sensitive that just playing with the managment a bit can blow them up. 
Whats to say the next time they melt my block doesn't get ruined? Luckily this time we were able to just remove the pistons and rods and my block is ok. 
I am just looking for a safer motor. This would be a better time than any to put something stronger in. 
Really though, the solution to all this is just put stock pistons back in and run 5 pounds. You don't have any problems then.


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

evan by no way am i trying to get on your nerves, but if you say blowing them is so easy, why would you wanna blow some precious JE's? dont be a skeptic man, you know what you did wrong, you can do this again. its just taht mots of the hardcore guys i seen usually take the stand alone route before the forged route, they have probbably been down the road you and me are trying to go and making stuff liek motronic, piggybkcs etc work, honestly anyone who i talk to that has had a atp chip and fmu then switched to stand alone they say its so a night and day difference, super super smoot, smoother than a 1.8T off the parking lot, etc, i think you should at least consider it


----------



## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

I think 2kjettaguy has made it clear that he's not ready to dump a rediculous amount of money for standalone. This is completely understandable. If you're not too sure about programming it, I think the FTC from split second would be a good compromise, you don't need to understand all the spark timing events of the engine, just program in some boost retard and leave it at that. Or best yet, run 5 psi and get the car running real good, then maybe look into the FTC once you're "bored" of 5 psi.








Or maybe even the TMC ... doesn't need to be fancy, just something to retard some timing.


----------



## GTI RB (Aug 25, 2000)

*Re: (D Wiz)*

Im gonna have to agree with D Wiz. After i blew my motor, i was going to put forged internals in. But then i thought, i could just end up melting thoose too, and i decided it would be better if i got my tuning straight first before i dumped so much money on internals. But of course my dumb ass buys a SDS EIC instead of going full stand alone. 
Everytime i look back on my AEG Turbo, i realized all i needed to do, was spend some time saving up money for a stand alone system, if i hadnt gotten frustrated, and if i had paitently waited and got stand alone setup. I would still have my 2000 GTI. 
Once i'm in a real paying job and out of school, im buying another AEG, and im gonna do it right, just how i should have the first time around http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Ultimately Evan....its your decision. But take one moument, and stop to think just HOW MAD you will be if you pay that much for forged internals and melt a piston. I'm not sying you should go out and buy stand alone, but i think you should get your tuning down first on your cast pistons rather then forged. Maybe you can find an AEG sitting in a junkyard, then you got plenty of extra pistons to blow apart. 
Just some of my thoughts, hope everything works out. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Quiz (Sep 13, 2002)

*Re:*

Start with moderate timing with generouse fuel. Work out the entire fuel curve first then step up timing.


_Modified by Quiz at 12:43 PM 7-7-2003_


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (D Wiz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *D Wiz* »_evan by no way am i trying to get on your nerves, but if you say blowing them is so easy, why would you wanna blow some precious JE's? dont be a skeptic man, you know what you did wrong, you can do this again. its just taht mots of the hardcore guys i seen usually take the stand alone route before the forged route, they have probbably been down the road you and me are trying to go and making stuff liek motronic, piggybkcs etc work, honestly anyone who i talk to that has had a atp chip and fmu then switched to stand alone they say its so a night and day difference, super super smoot, smoother than a 1.8T off the parking lot, etc, i think you should at least consider it









Honestly, I don't need either forged internals *or* standalone. I don't have an chip / fmu setup man, I've got a split second setup that works just fine. I don't think there is any problem whatsoever with my hardware / software. I ****ed up and blew it. Ran too lean, said take a couple runs and lost it. Shouldn't have done it, but we did. 
Standalone *Would not have helped.* I can still be a huge dumbass with standalone. The split second ran so smooth, I just didn't tune it right. I didn't know how easy it was to blow up a motor. Now I do, and I am worried that I might do it again if circumstances happen that are beyond my control. 
I am not ready to rewire my motor and ditch the bosch stuff. I work 70 hours a week and I do not have the time to start over with this project. I am mad enough that its dead in my garage and I am paying my brother to rebuild the motor because I can't do it right now. 
I just started building the turbo setup a month or two ago? Is it time to spend a couple thousand more and redo the project? I think not. I don't need things like "standalone" or "forged pistons" to define myself or how well my car drives. All I want is ~200 to the wheels for right now because as much as I would like the power, *I do not want* to have to afford new transmissions, a new clutch yet, new blocks, etc. 
Can't I work in steps here? I already moved too fast for it and blew it up. I sure learned alot from that, but I don't feel like the next time is to totally redo the engine management. I had the split second working. It works great. I did just like party boy did. I did what *anyone* can do. I had it lean, romped on it and blew it up. The entire forced induction forum could do that today. It was a bad judgement call from inexperience. All the "hardcore" guys have done that. Sure, they run standalone today, but today I am not ready to run standalone. Maybe in a couple months, but guys I just had my car ripped apart for over a month. I want to drive it every once in a damn while since I am paying for it every month, not take another month to rewire the engine and figure out how to tune it without making any mistakes and blowing it up. 
Here is my situation. 
I have a motor in my car right now that has 4 open holes running through the block. I need to know what setup makes the most sense as far as filling those holes and getting 200 to the wheels.
Stock pistons, lowered compression via headgasket
Forged pistons and rods, lowered compression via piston


----------



## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

Evan,
What's the price difference between stock and lower compression pistons (forged or cast)? I've had several people tell me not to stack head gaskets. You could get a thicker aftermarket gasket, but I would not stack them--more chance for problems.
Having had to replace my head, the "cost" is in the time and effort, so you want to do it right. You are looking for a daily driver, not a funny car. Don't overbuild your engine unless you are going to keep it for the track only.
I'll also say this again, don't forget the water injection! Especially with a turbo, it is NOT an intercooler. It is a way to control burn and cool the combustion chamber, regardless of how good an IC you have. The Aquamist makes a noticeable difference with my 1.8T--the car pulls forward when it comes on because the timing doesn't pull back.
BTW, which knock sensor went bad? Those things need to be clean (no corrosion underneath) and torqued properly.


_Modified by JettaRed at 1:46 PM 7-7-2003_


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (JettaRed)*

Exactly, don't overbuild it. I just need some new pistons and to go back at it having learned.
Forged internals are ridiculously expensive. Like $600 for the pistons and $700 for the rods. I haven't priced new stock pistons but my dealership friends can get them for me at 10% over cost. If i were to go the stock piston route I would purchase a Eurospecsport Headgasket spacer which is basically a headgasket (metal) with a thick spacer in between. We put one on Anand's car and its pretty nice. That and some headstuds.
The real cost will be blowing it again if that happens...


----------



## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

Evan, I think you're doing the right thing. Just throw in some stock pistons, and keep the boost down. If ever you want to run more boost later down the road, get something to control timing. Until then, just be damn careful when you tune the A/F.
Btw, if you WERE to get forged internals, forget about the rods, they very rarely break, and when they do it's usually due to PCP timing errors or very high HP levels.


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (Agtronic)*

Either forged or stock, but just pistons. I don't ever plan to run more than 10 or 12psi. I can't without the timing stuff, a race clutch, a quaife diff (so mine doesn't explode) and probalby axles down the road. That or 2nd gear, whichever eats itself alive at that much boost. 
If i wanted to run huge huge boost I would have gotten a bigger turbo to begin with. That's also a limiting factor. This isn't a race car though, and I don't want a race car. I just want more than the charger was able to put out and I want it to be a fun project, not a total rebuild (already got one of those) or something I can't depend on


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

evan, i was on eurospec the otehr day looking at the headgaskets, none for the MK4 , they dont sell one that says MK4, i even looked at the pics of the ones they had an dwas looking at my mk4 one while looking at the one on the screen, the drain holes dont line up, probbaly gonna have to stack them, that swhat im gonna do, shoudl work fine, does for eth ABA's dont see why it wont for us, but im guessing no gasket for us cause it wasnt an "application" and the ones visible didnt look like they fit http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif dammit, but oh well stakced works fine as long as you use head studs, the unfortunate ones ar ethe ones who use stretch bolts


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: (D Wiz)*

danny, i was just thinkin bout that stacking problem.... the ABA's use the softish gasket(as far as i know) while the AEG uses a metal three piece(i believe) gasket.... if you stack the metal ones I don't think you'll get quite the seal you normall would... just a thought


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (Anand20v)*

well i seen my firned stack him on his aba, they were metal for sure, although he did have a problem, and blew it dunno if it was cuase of the way they were put in, he put em back in ad they were fine, probably forgot to re torque after heat cycle,


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (Anand20v)*

Great, the Eurospec one won't fit?
You can't stack the mk4 ones. I have a new one in my hands and its metal. The sealing surfaces would not work on eachother. You can only stack the aba ones, and if the aba ones won't fit you've got no options here


----------



## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: Headgaskets*

Try here: http://www.ce-vw.com/products1.htm


----------



## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

*Re: (Anand20v)*

aba uses the same gasketsa i believe, its a multi layer metal one. My suggestion is get older pistons. Get any of the aba ones, i think there stronger cause ive never seen one blow apart like yours did. And back to the stacking gasket thing. It will work fine, just get arp studs and install it properly. But in all honesty you will be much happier with stock compression, and 10psi


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (turbodub)*

so if the aba is multi layer metal.... why wont the multi layer metal MK4 ones work? since you say they are the same


----------



## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (D Wiz)*

OK,Bad Habit,where is your time slip?I have posted mine,let's see your 13 sec. slip,and what is your trap?Mine is good for low 13's I just need a clutch and a LSD,wher is your 13 sec. time slip,you say my time is no big deal,let's see your slip since it is so eays,and would be THE ONLY ATP chip 2.0 13sec. car














I call BS on you until I see your slip buddy 







Remember guys,optimum ignition advance on a modified engine will be QUITE DIFFERENT than programmed into the mangement by the factory,factors include,mixture density,boost pressure and comp.ratio,intercooler efficiency,turbo efficiency,type of fuel being used,etc.Since petrol burns quickly,we are trying to "slow down" the flame and having a CONTROLLED BURN" not a "violent explosion",that is what octane does,it "slows down the burn rate,to make it more controllable",and petrol can "auto-ignite" from temp.and pressure alone,and if you have high cylinder pressure ,and hot spots on the piston you have 2 or more explosions happening at 1 time and they collide and all hell breaks loose,and with a boosted car since you have a more condensed,volatile mixture it will expand and burn moere rapidly when yo firew it than a NA car ,so guess what,you have to RETARD the point where ignition happens so your peak cylinder pressure does'nt happen at TDC when the piston has nowhere to go,it ha,mmers straight down on the piston and rod,and everything gets pummeled.If you have your PCP AFTER TDC the rod is at a angle and gets a good "shove".The important thing is to get that flame firing at the correct speed and time during the combustion process,and when you are running pump gas and a stock compression motor,youo have a highly compressed mixture with a quickly burning petrol and you have to fire it later,unfortunately your piggyback DOES NOT RETARD TIMING QUICKLY OR SUFFICIENTLY for what you are trying to do.And if you have a innefficient intercooler you are introducing a heated charge which is even MORE volatile knowing that temp and pressure can affect combustion,that is why you want a good intercooler,a efficient turbo at the boost you are running,and a lowered compression ratio so you have more room to pack in the mixture and not create such a high "dynamic compression ratio",and since your condensed mixture will burn much quicker and you have a small bore engine and a small intercooler you don't need to set off the flame as quickly as your ECU is progerammed to do naturally aspirated.If you get a bigger IC to lower charge air temps and run higher octane those both help to get a "controlled burn".Pre igniton is intake charge burning on it's own before spark is initiated due to temp and pressure or "hot spots" in the combustion chamber,and detonation is when you have 2 or more flame fronts exploding and hitting each other usually after the spark inititated flame front has happened and a hotspot (or otherfactor) has ignited another flame kernel and they hit each other and the violent explosion that occurs does the damge because your PCP has a high spike and breaks everything!Remember it is all about the controlled explosion at the right time........With my small bore 2.0,I have 98 octane and a huge intercooler and run at 10 psi boost only 18deg. total timing and at 15 psi I am at 13deg. total timing,I have good EGT's and perfect a/f and make good power for never being on the dyno,I have tuned it only on the streets of Hawaii.Oh'yeah,Blkjettaguy,this is what I know.Where are your times?


----------



## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*

And everybody remember this:BadHabit,where is your" ATP chip, FMU, 2.0 13 sec timeslip?"Post it up bro!Let's see it,since "I talk so much crap",let's see "your crap".Just keepin' it real bro!


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*

Man, my intercooler works better than yours. How can you prove mine's inefficient?
I quit.


----------



## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SILVERADO* »_OK,Bad Habit,where is your time slip?I have posted mine,let's see your 13 sec. slip,and what is your trap?Mine is good for low 13's I just need a clutch and a LSD,wher is your 13 sec. time slip,you say my time is no big deal,let's see your slip since it is so eays,and would be THE ONLY ATP chip 2.0 13sec. car














I call BS on you until I see your slip buddy







Remember guys,optimum ignition advance on a modified engine will be QUITE DIFFERENT than programmed into the mangement by the factory,factors include,mixture density,boost pressure and comp.ratio,intercooler efficiency,turbo efficiency,type of fuel being used,etc.Since petrol burns quickly,we are trying to "slow down" the flame and having a CONTROLLED BURN" not a "violent explosion",that is what octane does,it "slows down the burn rate,to make it more controllable",and petrol can "auto-ignite" from temp.and pressure alone,and if you have high cylinder pressure ,and hot spots on the piston you have 2 or more explosions happening at 1 time and they collide and all hell breaks loose,and with a boosted car since you have a more condensed,volatile mixture it will expand and burn moere rapidly when yo firew it than a NA car ,so guess what,you have to RETARD the point where ignition happens so your peak cylinder pressure does'nt happen at TDC when the piston has nowhere to go,it ha,mmers straight down on the piston and rod,and everything gets pummeled.If you have your PCP AFTER TDC the rod is at a angle and gets a good "shove".The important thing is to get that flame firing at the correct speed and time during the combustion process,and when you are running pump gas and a stock compression motor,youo have a highly compressed mixture with a quickly burning petrol and you have to fire it later,unfortunately your piggyback DOES NOT RETARD TIMING QUICKLY OR SUFFICIENTLY for what you are trying to do.And if you have a innefficient intercooler you are introducing a heated charge which is even MORE volatile knowing that temp and pressure can affect combustion,that is why you want a good intercooler,a efficient turbo at the boost you are running,and a lowered compression ratio so you have more room to pack in the mixture and not create such a high "dynamic compression ratio",and since your condensed mixture will burn much quicker and you have a small bore engine and a small intercooler you don't need to set off the flame as quickly as your ECU is progerammed to do naturally aspirated.If you get a bigger IC to lower charge air temps and run higher octane those both help to get a "controlled burn".Pre igniton is intake charge burning on it's own before spark is initiated due to temp and pressure or "hot spots" in the combustion chamber,and detonation is when you have 2 or more flame fronts exploding and hitting each other usually after the spark inititated flame front has happened and a hotspot (or otherfactor) has ignited another flame kernel and they hit each other and the violent explosion that occurs does the damge because your PCP has a high spike and breaks everything!Remember it is all about the controlled explosion at the right time........With my small bore 2.0,I have 98 octane and a huge intercooler and run at 10 psi boost only 18deg. total timing and at 15 psi I am at 13deg. total timing,I have good EGT's and perfect a/f and make good power for never being on the dyno,I have tuned it only on the streets of Hawaii.Oh'yeah,Blkjettaguy,this is what I know.Where are your times?









AAAAAUUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!! I cannot read this. Please, try some carriage returns and spaces!


----------



## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (JettaRed)*

Quit being so anal bro,this is about cars and tuning not english composition







Read it (even if it hurts your eyes)and you might learn something more than Nuespeed SC and aquamist tuning







Did you notice my good spelling mom?And BadHabit,I reread your post,stock chip,come on buddy 24lb/hr injectors don't flow enough fuel to make the power for the time you are saying.So Bad Habit I am calling Total BS on you bro!


----------



## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*

And Evan,think about this,that SMALL water to air IC you have how long is it?My intercooler is 30inches long,plenty of time for the charge air to reject heat for a A/A intercooler,yours is barely a foot long and how much heat can the charge air reject when it is passing through such a small IC?


----------



## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*

Dude, you can't communicate if people won't (or can't) listen (read). Just trying to help you get your message across. (Plus, I ran out of all my headache medicine.)


----------



## A396gti8vturbo (Aug 11, 2001)

*Re: the turbo project blows up... (xXx TURBO)*

i fell your pain


----------



## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (JettaRed)*

I am sorry to be so defensive,but I thought you were being a smarta$$ and giving me a hard time (like a lot of people like to do),but if it is really hard to read I apologize.I am a non-educated highschool drop out,but I own my own business and own 2 homes in Hawaii that are together worth a half million dolllars,so I do pretty good for a "uneducated person".I thought you were insulting my intelligence,sorry if I was wrong.


----------



## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SILVERADO* »_I am sorry to be so defensive,but I thought you were being a smarta$$ and giving me a hard time .... 

No problem. I could have been more clear.


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (JettaRed)*

all i can say is fooling motronic blows, my damm car is off the road till it gets SDS , straight up, be it 2 months, it sgonne be on there, il post up


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (D Wiz)*

2 months of no car?
go you


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

it could take less, or longer, bu twhatever it takes, ive made up my mind no more motronic for starters, i am used to it, its no big dal anymore, was off last summer for 2 months of waiting for parts from ATP, off liek 3 weeks in march for my exhaust and wastegate upgade, just got back on from the short runner, now back off, i might just drop the stock injectors back in, but it depresses me driving in vacuum only, i'd rather not drive it till its tuned right


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: (D Wiz)*

ok, in all honesty, i give up on this thread....


----------



## GTI RB (Aug 25, 2000)

*Re: (D Wiz)*

Evan, i totaly agree with you that there is NO reason for you to go out and buy stand alone. When i made that reply it was just what i wanted to do when i was in your situation. But i think you could most definately get this motor running right with the PSC unit and maybe even a aftermarket ignition control for some more safety.
But the point i was trying to get across is...dont bother buying forged. If i was you, i would go to VW Parts, and buy 4 new pistons, they come with rings already installed. I say use your old rods and wristpins. You may as well replace your rod bearings as well while your doing all this...good preventive maintnence. I cant remember how much the pistons cost, but i work at Heritege Body Shop, and i could check with Paul at VW Parts of Heritege on how much they are. He is absolutely the most informative and best VW parts guy, from engine swaps to mis-matching parts from one generation to another, you cant get any better help then him. I am in his top 3 of parts buyers







. 
But if ABA pistons will work, then maybe try using them since they are forged. I could get pricing for thoose too. A lot of times ABA items are much cheaper than other engines.
Anyways, i vote that you spend the LEASTE amount on new pistons and get back to tuning the thing.


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (GTI RB)*

anyways, 
i have on eMK4 metal 4 layer headgasket and raceware head studs ..... now if they ar ethe same as the ABA ones multilayer, then why cant i stck em?
my quesiton is, can i order one more MK4 one and stack it? i thought people have stacked the metal ones...


----------



## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (D Wiz)*

I was told by a master vw tech that you can't stack the gasket i have. Its a 4 layer metal one. He said you can stack the aba gasket which is a squish gasket. 
Stock pistons - $241.68 a piece 
JE's from Matrix - $152 a piece. 
ummm something's not right here


----------



## rocco2.0gtiLondon (Feb 26, 2003)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

Bit cheaper here!
http://www.jrcmotorsports.com/


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_I was told by a master vw tech that you can't stack the gasket i have. Its a 4 layer metal one. He said you can stack the aba gasket which is a squish gasket. 
Stock pistons - $241.68 a piece 
JE's from Matrix - $152 a piece. 
ummm something's not right here
evan, i am not doubting you at all, but what would a VW master tech know about stcking headgaskets? liek i said, im not doubting you, myguess is a techwould say no anyways,
anyways, i called JRC and they said it would be ok for the metal ones to be stacked, imma call a few more places


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: (D Wiz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *D Wiz* »_but what would a VW master tech know about stcking headgaskets? 

cuz he's got a 16vT Scirocco pushing over 30psi


----------



## turbojeta3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_2 months of no car?
go you











wether it be two months or two years. it is the point that you need to make sure that everything is on track. 
like i said before im going on 10 months. i researched and researched before i did anything. ask jrc how many times i called that dude.


----------



## Scrubby (May 13, 2002)

*Re: (rocco2.0gtiLondon)*

You can stack em Evan,I just dont think its going to work ,Maybe a spacer would be better.Plus how much will it drop compression.You can try the gaskets,Maybe order a thicck copper gasket.Its just not the way to do it.Especially if you have to replace piston already.Just food for thought.Let me know if there is ANYTHING I can do to help.Give Jeremy at Matrix a call. Took care of my pistons and rods.








Just reread the post with estimate .,duh , At least they will be a drop in. 


_Modified by Scrubby at 11:50 PM 7-7-2003_


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (Anand20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Anand20v* »_
cuz he's got a 16vT Scirocco pushing over 30psi
ok cool, i was guessing that it was somehting liek that. for a sec o tighut he meant some regular master tech
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
well 2 otehr places i called momentum and jrc said yeah, they said the ABA ones are the same metal multi layered just liek the MK4, ill let ya guys know how it turns out


----------



## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: (Anand20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Anand20v* »_
cuz he's got a 16vT Scirocco pushing over 30psi

Yeah, and putting 392hp to the WHEELS. (His name wouldn't be Steve Nomm, would it?)


----------



## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_
Stock pistons - $241.68 a piece 
JE's from Matrix - $152 a piece. 
ummm something's not right here

sometimes stock is not cheaper. look at RC Engineering for injectors--they be cheaper than stock.


----------



## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: (JettaRed)*

BTW, is this becoming another megathread?


----------



## Scrubby (May 13, 2002)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*

Water absorbs heat faster.


----------



## Scrubby (May 13, 2002)

*Re: (JettaRed)*

Nomm doesnt own that anymore.


----------



## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (Scrubby)*

evan, ask a moderator to re nam ethis thread "MK4 2.0T thread"







LOL
anyways , so i foundout the gaskets can be stacked, but definitely if gog pistons you wouldnt do that obviously


----------



## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (turbodub)*

Nicely put Todd, with that being said, what you need Evan is either run a bit more fuel or pull some timing out, my car ran 13's on street tires with good mph it's only time out and all it had was two extra injectors on the throttle being controlled by and aic. This was done on crappy cis.
Evan, sent u an IM, let me know if u wanna to take that offer and i'll ship u the stuff asap http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Silverado, chill out bro


----------



## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

*Re: (GTI RB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTI RB* »_Evan, i totaly agree with you that there is NO reason for you to go out and buy stand alone. When i made that reply it was just what i wanted to do when i was in your situation. But i think you could most definately get this motor running right with the PSC unit and maybe even a aftermarket ignition control for some more safety.


Right. This may be shocking but *YOU DO NOT NEED SDS TO HAVE A RELIABLE TURBO CAR* This is a rediculous debate....completely BS. While piggybacks have their own respective limitations they can easily work well. I know of 4 2.0T's in my local area that run perfect!! Excellent A/F, decent off throttle response all with piggybacks. I'm not talking about guys that have hooked up their turbo for a month either...one guy I know has had his car boosted since '98 and is still on his original engine. Sure the SDS may run more optimally and effectivelly but you don't need it.
Get on a dyno, get a custom chip burned with your timing tables and remapped A/F and tweak it with a piggyback. Don't tell me it doesn't work because I've seen/rode/drove 2.0T's with these setups and it works. You can have a reliable daily driven 2.0T if its tuned properly


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: (Scrubby)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scrubby* »_Water absorbs heat faster.


Aha! Somebody is finally listening! Water injection!


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (TooLFan46n2)*

thanks guys








Some things I found:
AEG pistons are listed 83.5mm in diameter
ABA pistons are listed 83.0
The stroke on both motors is different. I looked into using aba pistons and I am not sure if that will work. 
Price wise, its looking very afordable to throw in a fresh block. Why? cause VW sells them dirt cheap. I can get a shortblock for $1200. New pistons are going to cost me $960. Plus, after talking to a very knowledgeable friend it seems I need to disassemble the block and clean it up good. There is metal everywhere and it could end up in places where it should not be. So, if I am going to pull the block and spend all that time rebuilding it I might as well get new stuff. I don't want to chance it throwing in any used pistons, so maybe I'll keep the old block and build it on a stand for the next phase of 2.0T








Yeh, that would be ILL. 
So, for now I am still trying to figure out the best thing to do but I am stoked to have it running again. This time I won't make the same mistakes we alll have and I'll be able to tell all the newbies all i know about piston chunks and lean AFRs


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

you can get aba slugs in 83 and a half too


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## PARTY_BOY (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

http://www.jrcmotorsports.com/index2.html
Just put some forged pistons in it.$960 is crazy for stock stuff.


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## rocco2.0gtiLondon (Feb 26, 2003)

*Re: (PARTY_BOY)*

The 4 cylinder JEs at JRC are $525! no 900 or 1200 ???
I think lower the cr with the pistons http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
If you were to lower the cr using pistons could you just use a standard gasket(vw).
easy to clean the block in situ just get a big bucket underneath!
just a couple a thoughts- Rich


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (rocco2.0gtiLondon)*

I am still waiting for bad habits time slip....and ofcourse you can run a turbo without SDS,I have built 9 turbo cars without it.......







But for OPTIMAL performance you want it for it's ability to run large injectors and OPTIMAL TIMING.........either way I said what I have to say you are on your own and good luck!I am coming up on 13,000 miles here soon with my SDS,and 20+psi boost daily driver..........remember guys HP =air and fuel flow,so you will be limited by your injector size.................good luck! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Remember fuel and timing is everything...................


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*

BTW has ANYBODY on this thread tuned a turbo car that is still running?With high boost,and has ANYBODY here tuned a/f and timing curve?Or is this a computer jockey tuning forum?I know speed has, has any other?Where are the guys that have tuned before?


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: (JettaRed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JettaRed* »_
Yeah, and putting 392hp to the WHEELS. (His name wouldn't be Steve Nomm, would it?)

the dyno sheet the car came with said that, the car put down a lot less though


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*

silverado, whot he hell is bad habit??? if you mean blkjettavr6, his car keeps up with modded camaro ss's, its not slow.
Oh, and 19 periods after a phrase is not easy to read punctuation.


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## Scrubby (May 13, 2002)

*Re: (JettaRed)*

I was talkin about the air to water IC.Think about this,Lets say it 110 degrees outside,would like 60 degree air blowing at you to keep you cool, or would like jump in a 60 degree pool , and which would make you cold faster?


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: (Scrubby)*

can this 60º pool be filled with Corona? or maybe Guiness???


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## Scrubby (May 13, 2002)

*Re: (Anand20v)*

Silverado is just stating the facts for the most part ,the rest ,I think hes getting frustrated ,cause not every one is listening to what hes saying.Although you Dont need standalone to make big HP.but you do need to control the ignition timing from a stock setup if you cant control detonation or pre ignition.Let up on Silverado hes just tryin to help.And Silverado, chill out a little, you dont need to jump on peeps cause they disagree,there will always be people who disagree.
By the way my lowest time is 14.1 but I make 284 ish, my opinion is that i suck at driving, whats your opinion???









_Modified by Scrubby at 5:39 AM 7-8-2003_


_Modified by Scrubby at 5:44 AM 7-8-2003_


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## Scrubby (May 13, 2002)

*Re: (Anand20v)*

you alowed to have that???? Besides guinness tastes better a little warmer and corona tastes better colder with lime.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (Scrubby)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scrubby* »_By the way my lowest time is 14.1 but I make 284 ish, my opinion is that i suck at driving, whats your opinion???









thats it??? 14.1 and 285hp..... damm you suck LOL jk, you need slicks bad


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (Scrubby)*

Silverado is stating the facts, and I definately hear where you are coming from. There is alot to be said for doing it right the first time. I just don't feel like that's the way for me to go about it this time. I am not out for a crapload of horsepower in this setup. I want a decently fast daily driver. I know SDS can be perfect for that, but like I said the work's already been done and I have already learned the split second. I also learned how sensitive these motors are and how hard I was pushing it - even though I thought i wasn't. I never budgeted for things like forged internals or standalone, so at this point I need to be careful and not push it. As I've learned its so easy to push the limit and be careless. 
One day when the car's paid off and I have more time to tinker with it I will definately look into some type of standalone. As I learn more and more I will want to be able to control it all. At the point though there is alot I am still timid to touch, like timing for instance. Prior to this thread I had no idea what i was talking about in that department. 
Rock on SDS guys - just lay it on us newbies a little easier


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## Scrubby (May 13, 2002)

*Re: (D Wiz)*

020 transmission and 284WHP and slicks, .........Thats not even math.


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## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (Scrubby)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scrubby* »_020 transmission and 284WHP and slicks, .........Thats not even math.








you better have a diff with all that power, aka peloq aka queef!!!!
evan i hera ya, seem sliek a lot of poeple got tense, me too, i coundt hang woth that piggy, not for me especially guessing with my ass, we'll see what happens


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## Scrubby (May 13, 2002)

*Re: (D Wiz)*

Its one of my custom transmissions, it got a Quaife plus some other stuff,special gearing, hopefully when I get the Tec unit fixed ill be back in mix at the Ritchie 500.


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (Scrubby)*

Love the special trannies







I need to baby mine
Yeh danny, the piggyback was a huge pain in the ass for me to start with. For 3 reasons. One, I did not have the slightest clue how to use the software or what values to use. Two, I had no way of knowing my air fuel ratio. Three, I didn't know what wires to tap! 
But, I got it all figured out and I am very comfortable with it and find it really easy to use. But, big learning curve for me. Now that I've struggled and learned it I don't want to change.


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## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

dude if you go out and spend 1200 on a vw short block youre out of youre mind!!!!!! For the last time go get a aba motor and swap it in. Or just get the block youre head will fit with a few minor adjustments. I dont understand, maybe you are just so sick of listening to peoples sugestions, but im giving you prob the most valuable info that will get you the power you want in the future! And i did make my first turbo car reach the 200 whp mark and run a 13.8, all in my daiy driven mk3 golf. Using a chip and fmu combo. And now i have made more power and ran better times than most of you can dream of in a bone stock turbo 8v motor. Oh and by the way this damn car has been driven almost everyday for about a year, and was driven across the country, raced all the time, and now im comin back to jersey on the 17th or 18th to race at waterfest!! Im not trying to be cocky or be a dick, i just think i know what may be best for you to do in youre situation. ANd on a side note i just got my new aba long block with 53k on it for 350 with a warranty. So go look for one!
Todd


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (turbodub)*

hey man, don't mean to be rude but its late and I can't find what you said to do...
ABA pistons? I am not sure if they will work or not. Plus, I do not think the aba block will bolt to my tranny or my passenger side motor mount. Not sure if my distributor will fit, etc. I don't want to be the first one to try it. 
Its a great thought though, because the aba stuff is alot better. However waht caused this was blunt trauma basically. Being dumb and inexperienced.
Did you suggest lowered compression or no? I wasn't clear on that. What's your setup exactly? I'd like to know


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## VW97Jetta (Sep 5, 2002)

*Re: (turbodub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *turbodub* »_ For the last time go get a aba motor and swap it in. 

Isn't backdating illegal?


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (VW97Jetta)*

Evan, you're going to go crazy if you keep reading this thread. Take a break from the Vortex before you lose your mind!


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## Cheese302 (Oct 12, 2002)

*Re: (Agtronic)*

agreed, skip the forum, and do what you want to do, it seems that everyone has the perfect setup, so now you should build your perfect setup, oh and by the way, air water i/c's i beleive are about 150% more efficient than air/air I remember reading that somewhere


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: (Cheese302)*

the fact is everyone will tell you they know what they are doing, and they have the answer. you have no real way to see if they are full of crap or not.
i can say that turbodub's reccomendation is exactly what i would tell you.
and sds would be a nice move, but thats another story.....


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## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (Cheese302)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cheese302* »_ oh and by the way, air water i/c's i beleive are about 150% more efficient than air/air I remember reading that somewhere
at the track mostly, for daily driving its about the same


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## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (Anand20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Anand20v* »_silverado, whot he hell is bad habit??? if you mean blkjettavr6, his car keeps up with modded camaro ss's, its not slow.
Oh, and 19 periods after a phrase is not easy to read punctuation.

That would be me.I am just sitting getting a kick out of what has been said.I read Silverado post about his education and how homes he has and was saying to my self,"self,he has so much money,why would he not buy a turbo Porsche and quit screwing with VW's?"Oh yeah,i have been running 18 pounds boost for 2 years on the same bottom end.No standalone here.Go figure


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*

Bad Habit,first you were running 13's now you're running 18lbs on stock chip/injectors.WHERE IS THE TIMESLIP?You say I "talk a lot for having ONLY a 13 sec. car",but where is YOUR 13sec. TIMESLIP for your car.If you are going to call me out I want to see your proof!







Let's be honest now....it is not as "easy" to build a 13sec. 4 banger 3000 lb. car as you are saying it is,so where is your slip? Oh yeah,the reason I don't buy a turbo Porsche is:I can't afford one,and I buy houses not cars







I have owned my Rado 9 years going on 10 now,no car payments!!BTW I am not claiming "uber tuner " stautus by any means,I am a "novice" or amateur JUST LIKE YOU GUYS,but have tried amny different things and know what it takes to BUILD A RELIABLE STREET TURBO CAR,(not a 10or 11 sec.race car)but 13 sec. in a almost 3000lb 4 banger is not as easy as you think (doing it BY YOURSELF)but I DID,and if you open your eyes you will see that I have posted a slip and am still driving my car daily,in fact after this post I will be driving to Honolulu and Kaneohe to pick up parts ,a 80 mile round trip,[art of me and my car daily routine (and bitching on the TEX)I do have empathy for you guys (that have blown up) and am trying to make you see the facts and help you out.And where are all the timeslips from these FMU +chip 13 sec. 4 bangers?







Hmmmmmm. 


_Modified by SILVERADO at 10:00 PM 7-8-2003_


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## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*

Dude,iam sorry i dont keep my sub 14 time slips from last year.Iam not all that concerned with mid to high 13's as my slightly modded 5.0 mustang does those consistantly.CHILL OUT MAN!DAMN.Iam just a poor dude that cant afford to build anything,so i take pics of other cars that are not mine and say they run high 13's.


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*

Then why don't you just admit that you are posting false information?Saying that I have SDS and ONLY 13 sec. but you did it on a FMU and stock injectors chip,and now you LOST THE SLIP







I am calling BS on you man.Be real and honest,I am only HOLDING YOU TO THE TRUTH.HAHA


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## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*

Thats the truth dude,i have nothing to prove.If had a standalone i would i would probably be boosting even more then iam now.Or maybe even fry some pistons,who cares.I have a VW shop


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*

OK,to hell with this I'm buying a Honda and and some NAWZZZand will be on the SI forums acting like a idiot trying to save innocent pistons from a gruesome and untimely death.So BadHabit you do your own FMU tuning?Please show me how so I can sell my standalone system and do better than "barely breaking 13's" like you do.


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## JettaRed (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SILVERADO* »_OK,to hell with this I'm buying a Honda and and some NAWZZZand will be on the SI forums acting like a idiot trying to save innocent pistons from a gruesome and untimely death.... 

He, he. But you'll have to change your name to VinDieselADO!


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## turbojeta3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: (JettaRed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JettaRed* »_
He, he. But you'll have to change your name to VinDieselADO!


hhahahahahhahahhahaha.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (turbojeta3)*

bwahhh, dont be mad people, here's a 13sec car on street tires, only 2 injectors at the throttle and a [email protected]








Evan, I'm pretty sure that ABA pistons are 82.5mm, 2L 16v pistons are 82.5mm and they can be put in the ABA's.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: (killa)*

only 2 injectors??
daaaaaayym!
they must be like 2000cc each! hahaha


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (speed51133!)*

Is that a 8V with fmu 13 sec. car like Bad habits?


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## Quiz (Sep 13, 2002)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*

9 pages of FMU babble. Please make it stop!


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: (Quiz)*

FMU,FMU,FMU,FMU,FMU,I love FMU's!!


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## sdisme (Jan 7, 2003)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SILVERADO* »_FMU,FMU,FMU,FMU,FMU,I love FMU's!!









HAH!


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (sdisme)*

more like I dont want to spend I dont want to spend I dont want to spend, the money on a proper fuel system.


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## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (SILVERADO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SILVERADO* »_Is that a 8V with fmu 13 sec. car like Bad habits?









Geez man,let it go.Its okay,your the man.I dont use an fmu,my fuel pump locked up and i hooked up a hampster wheel to it.The hampster runs fast enough for to break into the 14's but not quite high 13's


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*

Damb lazy hampsters


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## Bad Habit (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: (mattstacks)*

Maybe i can upgrade to a Siamese cat.Oops,they only have those for the JDM guys


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (Bad Habit)*

If your interested:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=931689


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## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

Pointless post by me, just wanted to say i read this whole thing at 3am start to finish in one sitting. Also good luck w/ your setup looks awsome once you get it tuned, you will want to hit yourself for wanting to sell it!


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: (Banditt007)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Banditt007* »_Pointless post by me, just wanted to say i read this whole thing at 3am start to finish in one sitting. Also good luck w/ your setup looks awsome once you get it tuned, you will want to hit yourself for wanting to sell it!

here's an update for ya, it put down 205whp/246wtq on pump gas


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## foolery (Dec 10, 2003)

Damn this has to be the longest topic I've seen







.


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: (foolery)*


_Quote, originally posted by *foolery* »_Damn this has to be the longest topic I've seen







.

Oh ye of little faith. Everyone knows this is the longest thread in here...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=194518


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: (vdubspeed)*

just wanted to say the lumber thread in the car lounge is HUNDREDS of pages long, ye of misinformation!


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## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: (speed51133!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_just wanted to say the lumber thread in the car lounge is HUNDREDS of pages long, ye of misinformation!

notice I said "in here" as referring to the forced induction forum.
I was covering my butt because I figured there would be something longer. Oh ye who was quick to hit the enter key


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: (vdubspeed)*

the lumber thread was started before there was even a forced induction forum, i THINK before there was even a 2.0L forum.
so IMHO its is in HERE just as much as any other thread








oh ye of little vortex historical knowledge


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

*Re: (speed51133!)*

oh ye of little vortex historical knowledge >>>>

So, vortex knowledge is something to brag about ????








haha, I believe the kids would say you've just been "owned"


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## bmxvr6 (Dec 11, 2000)

*Re: (lugnuts)*

Thats some funny ish. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: (bmxvr6)*

The lumber thread is up to 122. The Neuspeed pulley thread is up to 108. Most people there are just either chatting or bringing up points already discussed.


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*

This thread kicks ass......


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: (2kjettaguy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2kjettaguy* »_The lumber thread is up to 122. The Neuspeed pulley thread is up to 108. Most people there are just either chatting or bringing up points already discussed. 

you mean in the lumber thread, or the neuspeed thread?
because i cant even think of 122 words to say about the neuspeed charger.
hahaha


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