# Aluminum front control arms..?



## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

So I was thinking, what would be the ultimate control arm for the masses (us). I was wondering if it would be possible to make front controll arms out of aluminum (billet or other) instead of steel. Would they be strong enough to support the car in hard corners? Or is aluminum not strong enough? It would be interesting to see what the weight difference would be, and how that would affect a front heavy pig like the TT. 

Discuss...


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

It would have to be cast aluminum like many OEM control arms. I wouldn't trust an aluminum welded tubular control ARM. 

As far as the arms weight improvement is concerned, I'd think that it would be substantially noticed to have the unsprung weight reduced a few percents.

Nikhil on QW has nice steel tubular arms that you should consider if you don't have any racing allowances restricting your mod path.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Not aluminum but....



















These belong to 2001TTransport


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Do you know if he's happy with the NVH? I would like something like that without the rose joints. Built for a daily driver. Just decide which bushings fit your needs. Get to pick what set up you want. From stock rear bushings to a full race set up. It would be nice to have the option of customizing a set of arms and having them shipped to you. Especially some lighter beafier ones, regardless what they're made of.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

warranty225cpe said:


> Do you know if he's happy with the NVH? I would like something like that without the rose joints. Built for a daily driver. Just decide which bushings fit your needs. Get to pick what set up you want. From stock rear bushings to a full race set up. It would be nice to have the option of customizing a set of arms and having them shipped to you. Especially some lighter beafier ones, regardless what they're made of.


These are the Nikhil tubular arms I spoke about, your best bet is to ask him personally on QW.
There are also a few other guys there succesfully running the arms in the streets.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

What is the end goal with the car? 

Lighter wheels, remove AC, lighter calipers, lighter exhaust, race battery/relocation. There are plenty of ways to drop weight without going to the extreme cost such as a aluminum cast control arm would set you back. Plus how much weight will be saved, perhaps 2 lbs a side. Thats where I would start. Daily's and tubular/spherical bearings always leave much to be desired.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

DeckManDubs said:


> What is the end goal with the car?
> 
> Lighter wheels, remove AC, lighter calipers, lighter exhaust, race battery/relocation. There are plenty of ways to drop weight without going to the extreme cost such as a aluminum cast control arm would set you back. Plus how much weight will be saved, perhaps 2 lbs a side. Thats where I would start. Daily's and tubular/spherical bearings always leave much to be desired.


I kind of agree, unless you have some serious goal to warrant the trouble, I would just stay with what's already available.

The only thing DeckManDubs, removing 2lbs of unsprung weight will have a much greater impact on things than removing 2lbs of AC or exhaust for example. 
2lbs of unsprung weight(wheels, rotors, arms etc.) may act like 20lbs of sprung weight(same goes for rotational weight) and when you multiply that by two you get a nice little improvement! :beer:


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

madmax199 said:


> I kind of agree, unless you have some serious goal to warrant the trouble, I would just stay with what's already available.
> 
> The only thing DeckManDubs, removing 2lbs of unsprung weight will have a much greater impact on things than removing 2lbs of AC or exhaust for example.
> 2lbs of unsprung weight(wheels, rotors, arms etc.) may act like 20lbs of sprung weight(same goes for rotational weight) and when you multiply that by two you get a nice little improvement! :beer:


Max, your right on the unsprung weight. I think the ratio is 6:1 (Porsche Engineering #'s, others say its closer to 7:1) so 4lbs would be 24lbs. Which is closer to the weight of the AC compressor. So it would be a close even. 

Way I look at it, removing something does not cost $$$, trying to make something lite costs $$$x$$$. Going from Fat 5's to OZ's yields close to 6lbs on each wheel (144lbs of unsprung weight).


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

DeckManDubs said:


> Max, your right on the unsprung weight. I think the ratio is 6:1 (Porsche Engineering #'s, others say its closer to 7:1) so 4lbs would be 24lbs. Which is closer to the weight of the AC compressor. So it would be a close even.
> 
> Way I look at it, removing something does not cost $$$, trying to make something lite costs $$$x$$$. Going from Fat 5's to OZ's yields close to 6lbs on each wheel (144lbs of unsprung weight).


Agree 100% now!


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

I agree that, for weight savings, there is a lot to do before the control arms. Though, the control arms do have the 'benefit' - depending on the user, of course - of having a large improvement in handling.

That said, I have close to 250lbs (I'd have to check my actual notes, but I think I was at about minus 245lbs or so) off my stock weight, and haven't done the control arms, AC delete, or taken any drastic measures. The point being that there is a lot of weight to be lost in these pigs :thumbup:

Does anyone know the actual weight difference between the Nikhil arms and stock? I could see it being more than 2lbs...


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Nikhil says his arms weigh in at 8lbs. Not sure what the stock ones weigh, but i have them at home and ill weigh them when i get home:thumbup: I think someone should make a set of arms that can emulate the mythical "MKI arms". That would be a huge seller.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

warranty225cpe said:


> Nikhil says his arms weigh in at 8lbs. Not sure what the stock ones weigh, nut i have them at home and ill weigh them when i get home:thumbup: I think someone should make a set of arms that can emulate the mythical "MKI arms". That would be a huge seller.


I don't think a MKI clone would be a huge seller for two reasons:
1) MKI arms = Mk2(post recall) arms with defcons inserts
2) MKI arms < MK2 arms + New Delrins bushings I posted a little while ago

What would be the the point to mimic something that's already outperformed?

IMO if you want performance and is not restricted by classing or daily civility, the Nikhil arms are the way to go. If you still mostly DD or have rule restrictions, MK2 arms + Delrins are the new name in town ( I wish I could take a few peeps for rides in my car, the handling behavior is just insane! 


BTW, your aluminum ARM thread just took off on QW!


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

madmax199 said:


> I don't think a MKI clone would be a huge seller for two reasons:
> 1) MKI arms = Mk2(post recall) arms with defcons inserts
> 2) MKI arms < MK2 arms + New Delrins bushings I posted a little while ago
> 
> ...


I just think that if someone made a set that you could decide how aggressive you wanted your bushings, would be a good seller. Even more so because you could order tham in whatever configuration you want. And having them shipped to you ready to go would be great. Not everyone can do their own work.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

warranty225cpe said:


> I just think that if someone made a set that you could decide how aggressive you wanted your bushings, would be a good seller. Even more so because you could order tham in whatever configuration you want. And having them shipped to you ready to go would be great. Not everyone can do their own work.


What's the difference between that and getting:
A) poly inserts to replace OEM rubber
B) defcons with either rubber or poly
C) full solid Delrins

Basically you can customize your OEM arms from soft to super agressive with all the options available now!


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

madmax199 said:


> What's the difference between that and getting:
> A) poly inserts to replace OEM rubber
> B) defcons with either rubber or poly
> C) full solid Delrins
> ...


But nobody makes arms that you can buy off the shelf that you can configure how you want them. And if someone were to duplicate MKI arms, you wouldnt need defcons. Considering the fact that TT owners arent the only ones that want TT arms, the would sell pretty well.


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## TTC2k5 (May 23, 2008)

warranty225cpe said:


> But nobody makes arms that you can buy off the shelf that you can configure how you want them. And if someone were to duplicate MKI arms, you wouldnt need defcons. Considering the fact that TT owners arent the only ones that want TT arms, the would sell pretty well.


I think mike at MCPI has "spare" arms. You could probably order the specs you want and trade yours in. Maybe. Worth an email to ask anyway.

cheers.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

TTC2k5 said:


> I think mike at MCPI has "spare" arms. You could probably order the specs you want and trade yours in. Maybe. Worth an email to ask anyway.
> 
> cheers.


Yes, you can order arms from Mike in any flavor you want. Hell, you could even get agressive on the driver's side and cushy on the passenger's side for the ladies if you wanted. It's just done in a core exchange manner!.:beer:


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

madmax199 said:


> Yes, you can order arms from Mike in any flavor you want. Hell, you could even get agressive on the driver's side and cushy on the passenger's side for the ladies if you wanted. It's just done in a core exchange manner!.:beer:


But with his arms you have to order defcons to get rid of the understeer. If you made a set of arms with the front bush location with the dimensions of the MKI arm, you wouldnt need defcons..


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

warranty225cpe said:


> But with his arms you have to order defcons to get rid of the understeer. If you made a set of arms with the front bush location with the dimensions of the MKI arm, you wouldnt need defcons..


"Same difference"


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

madmax199 said:


> "Same difference"


Not if your spending an extra $125 for the Defcons


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

warranty225cpe said:


> Not if your spending an extra $125 for the Defcons


How much do you think new arms would cost?


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

I think ur missing the the point I'm trying to make. If nikhil had encapsulated (or however you want to describe them) bushing placement (like OE) instead the rose jointed ends, it would allow you to SELL a lighter than stock, customizable, (and most importantly) MARKETABLE, control arm. racing parts and performance parts are on two different levels (Im sure you know that more than anyone). Therefore you have different users/demographics. Shaking my teeth out in a daily driver isn't for say 70% of the TT/tuning market. I like to enjoy the comfort of a sweet looking car that I think belongs in the "luxury" category. Besides, my girl hates riding in my car as it is. Lol


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

Warranty, I kind of think you're missing the point 

There are like 3 guys out there that will spend that much money to drop 2lbs of unsprung mass, and still run 'squishy' bushings. I think 99% of people that want are willing to spend that much cash to reduce unsprung mass are going to care about performance enough to want spherical bearings (or something close to it). The two kind of go hand-in-hand.

You're welcome to bring the arms to market, but I'd buy the Nikhil ones, or stock arms with Delrin bushings, before your proposed version


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

warranty225cpe said:


> I think ur missing the the point I'm trying to make. If nikhil had encapsulated (or however you want to describe them) bushing placement (like OE) instead the rose jointed ends, it would allow you to SELL a lighter than stock, customizable, (and most importantly) MARKETABLE, control arm. racing parts and performance parts are on two different levels (Im sure you know that more than anyone). Therefore you have different users/demographics. Shaking my teeth out in a daily driver isn't for say 70% of the TT/tuning market. I like to enjoy the comfort of a sweet looking car that I think belongs in the "luxury" category. Besides, my girl hates riding in my car as it is. Lol


I totally get your point! However, also know that it's not realistic to think you can profitably market such a product and not turn it into an exotic and expensive product that only appeal to a small segment of the market. The Nikhil arms are a perfect example, tons of potential but the price makes it exotic. The regular Joe that want a nice ride on his DD is not going to spend more than regular arms + defcons money just to get a lower unsprung weight. The majority of the market could careless or would rather save that money for bags or their regula tuning body kit.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

madmax199 said:


> I totally get your point! However, also know that it's not realistic to think you can profitably market such a product and not turn it into an exotic and expensive product that only appeal to a small segment of the market. The Nikhil arms are a perfect example, tons of potential but the price makes it exotic. The regular Joe that want a nice ride on his DD is not going to spend more than regular arms + defcons money just to get a lower unsprung weight. The majority of the market could careless or would rather save that money for bags or their regula tuning body kit.


Lol:laugh:


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## VDubDubber (Aug 1, 2008)

So I don't play a lot with TT's but I am curious. Why not go with a MK4 front control arm? Much lighter and same dimensions as the TT, right? Just have to modify the balljoints and much cheaper than proposed solutions. Unless I'm missing something? I myself am thinking of going with a set of tubulars I found someone producing here on vortex. Oh, one more question. What is QW yall keep referencing?


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## G'D60 (Mar 11, 2002)

Great thread,

So maybe Im confused a little bit. Lower your car your gonna need adjustable control arms to bring the car's camber back into spec right? So what are the control arms being created by Max and modified arms made by poopie? such as this thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...le-control-arm-option&p=73354109#post73354109

They are not like the arms mentioned in this thread. The only thing I can think of is the attached thread is for rear control arms and the pictures posted above by nikhil are front arms. I feel like I'm missing something here. I recall people saying, one set or 2 yada yada. Can someone differentiate between both parts and why they are called the same thing

Here is a Gruven image to show their control arms. Seems to be a picture of the rear. does the same apply up front?


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## VDubDubber (Aug 1, 2008)

G'D60 said:


> Great thread,
> 
> So maybe Im confused a little bit. Lower your car your gonna need adjustable control arms to bring the car's camber back into spec right? So what are the control arms being created by Max and modified arms made by poopie? such as this thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...le-control-arm-option&p=73354109#post73354109
> 
> ...


The rear of an AWD. Is very very different from the front in both design and function.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

VDubDubber said:


> What is QW yall keep referencing?


quattro world


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

VDubDubber said:


> So I don't play a lot with TT's but I am curious. Why not go with a MK4 front control arm? Much lighter and same dimensions as the TT, right? Just have to modify the balljoints and much cheaper than proposed solutions. Unless I'm missing something? I myself am thinking of going with a set of tubulars I found someone producing here on vortex. Oh, one more question. What is QW yall keep referencing?


The *stamped* regular MKIV arms are inferior to the *Cast* TT arms. They are flimsy, known to crack, deteriorate and lack the the slots that allow for camber adjustments. The lower weight is maybe the only thing that may make them an option if someone is looking to drop a few Lbs of unsprung weight. Most MK4 people that race, (Mike Potter in his GTI comes to mind), upgrade to TT arms and run without a front swaybar, so I don't see the option too tempting unless there is a big weight difference between the two.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

G'D60 said:


> Great thread,
> 
> So maybe Im confused a little bit. Lower your car your gonna need adjustable control arms to bring the car's camber back into spec right? So what are the control arms being created by Max and modified arms made by poopie? such as this thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...le-control-arm-option&p=73354109#post73354109
> 
> ...


You are confusing front and rear. This thread is about front lower control arms, the picture you posted are the rear control arms (an upper and a lower on each side). The Nikhil arms are aftermarket tubulars for the front and the rear arms have nothing to do with this discussion.

OT but since you asked, when you lower the car, the rear camber goes excessively negative and there is a lot of toe in. To bring the rear alignment back into acceptable levels (spec is retarded from the factory) you need adjustable rear control arms or excentric bushings to correct things; that's also when the "one set" or "two sets" needs comes in to play depending on how low the car is.


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## VDubDubber (Aug 1, 2008)

madmax199 said:


> The *stamped* regular MKIV arms are inferior to the *Cast* TT arms. They are flimsy, known to crack, deteriorate and lack the the slots that allow for camber adjustments. The lower weight is maybe the only thing that may make them an option if someone is looking to drop a few Lbs of unsprung weight. Most MK4 people that race, (Mike Potter in his GTI comes to mind), upgrade to TT arms and run without a front swaybar, so I don't see the option too tempting unless there is a big weight difference between the two.


I agree TT arms would be stronger. Never even considered them not being. I have never seen this problem with them breaking easily though. Thanks for the info. I'll have to look into that. The only reason I mentioned it is because this thread seemed to be leaning more to weight saving advantages. If this is true about the MK4 control arms then I will be going with the tubulars. Give me a minute I will throw up a link so you guys can see these arms. They look nice! lol


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## VDubDubber (Aug 1, 2008)

*^ Said Control Arm Thread*

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-Fabrication&p=73661216&posted=1#post73661216

Here is the link to the thread. Hope this helps someone. These will be my next LCA's


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## 2001TTransport (Sep 18, 2005)

Figured I'd chime in 

Those are Nikhil arms on my TT. It's a 517fwd/483awd TT that I have been building since 2002 when I puchased it. I've built it for the track for road race circuits and it's a monster; however, it seems the focus here is more about daily driving, so in that regard I'll focus my comments to the last year with no track time.

I regularly DD the car, I run the Nikhil arms up front with Ground Control, and in the rear I run Gruven arms with a 19mm rear bar and VF Engineering Motor mounts / Dogbone mount, with KW V3s, with a blue Haldex with Recaro Pole Position seats.

For daily driving in Austin it was great, I had adjusted my V3s by adding some stiffer springs and adding a click or two on both rebound and dampening and was very happy with this as a track setup and the daily driveability was still good. However, I will have to admit that for the last few months I've had the car in Denver and need to adjust the rebound and dampening on the V3s to a softer setting. It is really harsh right now due to the roads in Denver. 

Is it a very expensive solution, yes; however, when I turn in the car is a point and click and performs consistently. Since I am so far away from a stock TT it is very hard to comment on NVH, as I gave up on NVH concerns a long time ago. If I had it to do over again, I would do the exact same with the suspension except I would have bought the orange controller. Also I would order the dust cover for the rose joints, I have one that is now starting to get a little noisy.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Yeah, Denver roads suck! If its not the pot holes its the sand/gravel they put on the roads that seems to sandblast the front of your car.


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## VDubDubber (Aug 1, 2008)

2001TTransport said:


> Figured I'd chime in
> 
> Those are Nikhil arms on my TT. It's a 517fwd/483awd TT that I have been building since 2002 when I puchased it. I've built it for the track for road race circuits and it's a monster; however, it seems the focus here is more about daily driving, so in that regard I'll focus my comments to the last year with no track time.
> 
> ...


So you seem to have lots of experience over various surfaces and driving types. What would you say to someone thinking of running tube LCA's on a daily? I come from the custom truck world and have run tube control arms on all I have built. But never a FWD, all input is helpful. I like where this thread is going.


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## Currancchs (Feb 24, 2011)

Just out of curiosity, what are the defcon inserts for the stock arms that you guys are talking about, how do they help reduce understeer, and how dramatic are the effects... Would be nice to help the car turn in a bit better, but otherwise very happy with the performance of my lightly modified 225TT for daily driving, so no need to go crazy on weight savings for me at least.


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## VDubDubber (Aug 1, 2008)

The Delrin bushings from what I understand, experts chime in, goes in to fill so a smaller mk1 bushing can be used. Which firms it up and changes the geometry of the suspension just a bit, if I am not mistaken.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

Currancchs said:


> Just out of curiosity, what are the defcon inserts for the stock arms that you guys are talking about, how do they help reduce understeer, and how dramatic are the effects... Would be nice to help the car turn in a bit better, but otherwise very happy with the performance of my lightly modified 225TT for daily driving, so no need to go crazy on weight savings for me at least.


To really explain this, I have to go back to the recall that Audi had when a few early TT crashed in Europe. One of Audi's solution to the high speed brake/throttle-lift oversteer that was the "MK2" arms that reduced the steering sharpness and connection for a more "idiot proof" understeery response to steering inputs. This was achieved by increasing the bushing size in the forward location of the front control arms. 

That's when the Defcons came in from MCP_I_, they replace the extra size of the recalled arms with a metal bushing/spacer allowing the smaller original rubber bushing size to be used. Forward a few years, I get with Mike at MCP_I_ to come up with another solution that would, not only be SCCA legal in street prepared, but also perform a lot better than the original Defcons. That's what the Delrins solution is, a solid bushing that totally remove any deflection at that location because there is no rubber or polyurethane to deflect. The Delrin totally changes the car's steering behavior and is totally streetable.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

VDubDubber said:


> The Delrin bushings from what I understand, experts chime in, goes in to fill so a smaller mk1 bushing can be used. Which firms it up and changes the geometry of the suspension just a bit, if I am not mistaken.


No rubber at all with the Delrin solution, they totally replace OEM bushing or Defcon+original bushings.



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## Currancchs (Feb 24, 2011)

*thanks*

Awesome explanation, thanks for taking the time vdubdubber/madmax199


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

Currancchs said:


> Awesome explanation, thanks for taking the time vdubdubber/madmax199


:beer:


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## 2001TTransport (Sep 18, 2005)

VDubDubber said:


> So you seem to have lots of experience over various surfaces and driving types. What would you say to someone thinking of running tube LCA's on a daily? I come from the custom truck world and have run tube control arms on all I have built. But never a FWD, all input is helpful. I like where this thread is going.


Nothing wrong with DD on them I've hit some major pot holes here in Denver and mine are holding up well.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

2001TTransport said:


> Nothing wrong with DD on them I've hit some major pot holes here in Denver and mine are holding up well.


The concern is with the heims holding up to corrosion and wear, not the structural integrity of the arm itself


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

20v master said:


> The concern is with the heims holding up to corrosion and wear, not the structural integrity of the arm itself


^^ I second this, *heim joints are not suited for "true" daily use in any location that is load bearing. *I don't care what anybody say, they are either in denial or trying to push stuff on people that are clueless. I've been telling this to people on this board, that these type of spherical bearings(even the booted higher grade ones ) still have a very short life before they naturally develop noise and play that's out of their recommended specs (in worst cases, they can create binding and components failure). 

Don't get me wrong, they could be great on a race car or a garaged queen that see limited street use and not subjected to extreme conditions (rain, snow, salt etc.) but does your car fit that profile? I know mine doesn't because I still drive it in the streets, in the snow, to the track, at the track. Eventhough I stay on top of my maintenances, I could not justify having to refresh Heim jonts every so often :beer:.


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## 2001TTransport (Sep 18, 2005)

madmax199 said:


> ... still have a very short life before they naturally develop noise and play that's out of their recommended specs... I could not justify having to refresh Heim jonts every so often :beer:.


So yes I will have to refresh them every 18 months or so, no biggie. As for Garage Queen, no def not, but I have a lift in my garage and enjoy wrenching on the car, so checking out the underbelly and range of motion, etc and replacing them is within my personal profile. Not for everyone but again very little on my car is for everyone, but it's mine and I like it. 

A good DD recomnedation is the Defcons or the newer Defcons.


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## bluehue0 (Oct 24, 2008)

Does anyone know any shop that can install defcon bushing in queens NY?


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

All it takes is a machine press and knowing what to do :thumbup:


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Using a vise will also work to put the bushings in.


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## Luis92 (Jan 25, 2011)

warranty225cpe said:


> Yeah, Denver roads suck! If its not the pot holes its the sand/gravel they put on the roads that seems to sandblast the front of your car.





2001TTransport said:


> Nothing wrong with DD on them I've hit some major pot holes here in Denver and mine are holding up well.




im in Denver too


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

DeckManDubs said:


> Using a vise will also work to put the bushings in.


A vise will work at pressing the Defccons in but would not help him remove the existing OEM bushings that are molded into a metal sleeve that sometime does not play nice on a press and need to be chiseled out.


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## Neb (Jan 25, 2005)

a hacksaw and bfh will get those out in a few mins


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

Neb said:


> a hacksaw and bfh will get those out in a few mins


Hacksaw+BFH= Impact chisel-monkey power :laugh:


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

BFH "the persuader" is always the answer


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## night_OWL (Nov 15, 2011)

PLAYED TT said:


> BFH "the persuader" is always the answer


+1

This is a really great thread, and reading over it after madmax was banned makes me kinda sad that his input was lost on this forum...


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

The_RoadWarrior said:


> monkey power :laugh:


"inside the computer...?" lol


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

night_OWL said:


> +1
> 
> This is a really great thread, and reading over it after madmax was banned makes me kinda sad that his input was lost on this forum...


It wasn't lost, he just changed names. Hell, he's posted quite a bit with the new one...


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

The_RoadWarrior said:


> A vise will work at pressing the Defccons in but would not help him remove the existing OEM bushings that are molded into a metal sleeve that sometime does not play nice on a press and need to be chiseled out.


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## night_OWL (Nov 15, 2011)

l88m22vette said:


> It wasn't lost, he just changed names. Hell, he's posted quite a bit with the new one...


Wie bitte? What is his new handle?


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

night_OWL said:


> Wie bitte? What is his new handle?


We'd have to kill you if we tell you!


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Let's just say its the sequel... opcorn:


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## night_OWL (Nov 15, 2011)

Ah gotcha... I'll keep my eyes open


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

l88m22vette said:


> Let's just say its the sequel... opcorn:


Awesome! Just put it all together lol


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