# So I installed my vtec ( Franco Industries cam gear ;-) )



## VWinA (Oct 20, 1999)

The cam gear was rebuilt by a local guy. 
I brought it to my mechanic for installation and we did so. Installation went well, we even looked at how the timing varied with a timing light. It was pretty cool!
We then tried the car on the road and the car ran like crap. 
We changed the timing on the cam gear (one tooth more -) and it was better but not great. 
We thought it wasn't working out and maybe this cam gear wasn't great after all, like some said. The TT review came to mind. The theory seemed good though. After some discussion, we tried another tooth more retard.
Well things woke up. I'm thrilled by the cam gear. It's all I hoped for. 
Great low end and it just rips and keeps on pulling to the limiter. 
It's insane, it's like if the engine gets a second wind. It goes wooo wooooo!!!








So instead of having a great torque between 3.5 and 5k rpm, I now have great torque from 2k and 6.5k rpm. Night and day in my book.
Faith made it that I met a friend with his 2 door civic vtec and I schooled him. Ok old schooled him. That completed the day quite well.
I'm convinced now that the cam gear is all it's hyped up to be.
Thought I'd share.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

And when you sell it, I'm calling dibs.
The waiting line starts here.


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## independent77 (May 23, 2003)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_And when you sell it, I'm calling dibs.
The waiting line starts here.

thumb wrestle ya for it.


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## djpj06 (Jul 12, 2005)

*Re: (independent77)*

maybe USRT could do a little magic


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## red97k2golf (Oct 7, 2004)

*Re: (djpj06)*

what kind of wheels are those are on your car?


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## VWinA (Oct 20, 1999)

*Re: (red97k2golf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *red97k2golf* »_what kind of wheels are those are on your car?

They are wheels known as "le castelet" (yes another one named like that), in NA, they only came on 1990's passat syncros (canada only). They are made by fuchs, are very light and are forged alluminum. 
Keeping the oem plus trend on my car...


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## red97k2golf (Oct 7, 2004)

*Re: (VWinA)*

I want them for my car







, the bolt right up to mk3's right? ive never seen an mk3 with them


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## VWinA (Oct 20, 1999)

*Re: (djpj06)*


_Quote, originally posted by *djpj06* »_maybe USRT could do a little magic









I hope I can find the funds to bolt one up for my dyno day on the 3rd of june (edit).



_Modified by VWinA at 1:05 PM 5-4-2006_


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## marco2.0 (Apr 25, 2006)

*Re: So I installed my vtec (VWinA)*

i wan one


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## bosoxfan455 (Sep 8, 2005)

*Re: So I installed my vtec (marco2.0)*

what cam are you running? ive been trying to decide how to get a little more power and i cant afford fi or a sri yet


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## VWinA (Oct 20, 1999)

*Re: So I installed my vtec (bosoxfan455)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bosoxfan455* »_what cam are you running? ive been trying to decide how to get a little more power and i cant afford fi or a sri yet

I'm running a cat 272 but I would'nt recommend it. Your head must flow very well for it to work properly.


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## BMGFifty (Sep 2, 2004)

*Re: So I installed my vtec (VWinA)*

Every so often some kid will come up to my car and ask me about it. For what ever reason they always ask me if my car has "hondavtec" (one word). If I had one of these I could lie and say it does.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (djpj06)*


_Quote, originally posted by *djpj06* »_maybe USRT could do a little magic









I second this. Somebody start a thread to make USRT R&D one of these things.


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## jettaflair (Jan 7, 2006)

*Re: (VWn00b)*

sorry, am i missing something? is this different from a regular adjustable cam gear? it looks different... one of those fluid-dynamic gears that retards at higher rpms?


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## VWinA (Oct 20, 1999)

*Re: (jettaflair)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jettaflair* »_sorry, am i missing something? is this different from a regular adjustable cam gear? it looks different... one of those *fluid-dynamic *gears that retards at higher rpms?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (VWn00b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWn00b* »_
I second this. Somebody start a thread to make USRT R&D one of these things.

I've been riding Steve's ass for the past 6 months to make me one.


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (VWinA)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWinA* »_































ive read about this... the design is ohh so simple, why dont people replicate it???


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## jettaflair (Jan 7, 2006)

*Re: (7thGear)*

there we go now we're talkin'
i was thinking about the fluid-dynamic harmonic balancers
this looks more fun


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## djpj06 (Jul 12, 2005)

*Re: (jettaflair)*

if usrt would make them i would definitely buy one.... top of my list http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

*Re: (djpj06)*

ya really....i thik usrt could make one of those relatively cheaply
od pay like 150-200 for one....now imagine one of those with their manifold....that'd be money


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## ghoastoflyle (Jan 21, 2003)

*Re: (djpj06)*


_Quote, originally posted by *djpj06* »_if usrt would make them i would definitely buy one.... top of my list http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

X 2!


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (Dave926)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Dave926* »_ya really....i thik usrt could make one of those relatively cheaply
od pay like 150-200 for one....now imagine one of those with their manifold....that'd be money


Exactly. 
VWinA would be a hero if he donated his Franco gear for 48 hours.


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## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_I've been riding Steve's ass for the past 6 months to make me one.









and he's not complaining yet??


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## abawp (Nov 30, 2005)

I would imagine it being similar to a manual gear, but does anyone know the adjustment range? +4 to -4?


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## VWinA (Oct 20, 1999)

*Re: (abawp)*


_Quote, originally posted by *abawp* »_I would imagine it being similar to a manual gear, but does anyone know the adjustment range? +4 to -4?

+7 to -3


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## abawp (Nov 30, 2005)

+7?? WOW! Bet that gives for a nice meaty torque curve down low.


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: (abawp)*

not much more, but a larger band is cool. I would rock one jsut to be cool. I want an original, though. They did not sell many, becasue back in the day they were 300 dollars new! I think my friend Llew got the last one back in the day.... he even dyno'd it on his g60... Oh, yeah. I WANT ONE (make a replica!)


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## VWinA (Oct 20, 1999)

*Re: (Dave926)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Dave926* »_ya really....i thik usrt could make one of those relatively cheaply
od pay like 150-200 for one....now imagine one of those with their manifold....that'd be money


They used to go for 300$ 14 years ago. You'd be lucky to pay that in today's dollars. Maybe new manufacturing techniques could lower costs.


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## VDUBIN (Jun 28, 2001)

*Re: So I installed my vtec (VWinA)*

I have been thinking of having something similar fabbed up ever since I received my TT cam gear. I had the thing drawnup, just waiting to win the lottery to pay for the fabbing. It's pretty close to the total retard I was wanting. We need someone to replicate this!!!!


_Modified by VDUBIN at 8:19 PM 5-4-2006_


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## VWinA (Oct 20, 1999)

*Re: So I installed my vtec (VDUBIN)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VDUBIN* »_I have been thinking of having something similar fabbed up ever since I received my TT cam gear. I had the thing drawnup, just waiting to win the lottery to pay for the fabbing. It's pretty close to the total retard I was wanting. We need someone to replicate this!!!!


That camgear is completly retarded


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: So I installed my vtec (VWinA)*

If you folks can get Mr. Franco's blessing to make a batch in writing (I despise copying other folks parts, and its unethical/unlawful actually), I'd be happy to look into having a batch of these made....
It may be that he has no plans to ever make another batch... in which case he may not mind...


_Modified by Peter Tong at 10:03 PM 5-4-2006_


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## VDUBIN (Jun 28, 2001)

*Re: So I installed my vtec (Peter Tong)*

s0, does anyone know how to contact mr franco for his consent?


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: So I installed my vtec (VDUBIN)*

I'm doing some research on that as we speak


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: So I installed my vtec (Peter Tong)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Peter Tong* »_If you folks can get Mr. Franco's blessing to make a batch in writing (I despise copying other folks parts, and its unethical/unlawful actually), I'd be happy to look into having a batch of these made....
It may be that he has no plans to ever make another batch... in which case he may not mind...

_Modified by Peter Tong at 10:03 PM 5-4-2006_

how is it unethical when one man leaves behind a good for society product, but does not share its secrets with anyone else, and then abandons the whole idea?
if HE wont continue his work, why stop others from going on, with his concent or without
what if he died, would it still be unethical?


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: So I installed my vtec (7thGear)*


_Quote, originally posted by *7thGear* »_how is it unethical when one man leaves behind a good for society product, but does not share its secrets with anyone else, and then abandons the whole idea?
if HE wont continue his work, why stop others from going on, with his concent or without
what if he died, would it still be unethical?

I don't know if the above is true in fact... but I'll do what I can to find out...


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## GASH (Mar 17, 2004)

If someone made these again I'd definitely rock one on my wabbit


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## VWinA (Oct 20, 1999)

*Re: (GASH)*

I see all this discussion and interest going on about the gear and feel lucky to be driving around with it. I just came back from a little drive and it was, once again, awesome.
I love the way the power feels a lot less peaky now. I have strong low end giving into the always great camed 8v mid-range to a good high rpm rip. It really gave my car an edge.
I had this ongoing discussion about how my NA 2.0L project on a budget (stock bottom end and stock but chipped fuel management) was probably a waste of time. I think that with my current mods without the cam gear, if felt somewhat underwhelming as the top end wasn't quite as aggressive as I wanted and at the expense of some low end to add to it. The 16v motor seemed like the best option and some wise friends suggested that I abandon my NA 8V project to head towards something more rewarding. Well, I believe that the 2.0L 8V was the best choice for me as they cost half as much as the 16v to modify and are a dime a dozen, plus we can still find great examples with low mileage.
Anyhow, all I can say is that hope is on my side once again and that I'm thrilled with the results I'm having right now. I really think a USRT manifold might be the cherry on the sundae for my setup. 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Rabbit6 (Dec 16, 2000)

*Re: So I installed my vtec (Peter Tong)*

I used to run one of those cam gears. It was on a highly modified 1.7L (funny nowadays). That engine wouldn't take a 272 cam until it was mated to this cam gear. Then I upgraded to a high compression 2L 8v engine. The G grind worked best. The franco sprocket's range of movement was far too big, and came on way too soon. I lightened the flyweights until they looked like swiss cheese, but still too soon. I was going to make new flyweights out of aluminum, and use dowel pins to reduce the total amount of travel, but ended up selling the engine. 
These cam gears work great, but:
you first need to use a manually adjustable sprocket and a dyno to figure out exactly what timing and when your engine likes. Then modify the franco gear to match.
On my 2L, it liked +3 until 5300 and -1 shortly thereafter. The franco gear couldn't match those specs. It would need MUCH lighter flyweights and added stops to prevent flyweight movement beyond -1.
properly tuned to the individual engine, the franco gear can dramatically improve an engine's performance.


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## VWinA (Oct 20, 1999)

*Re: So I installed my vtec (Rabbit6)*

Maybe I'm just lucky but the gear seems properly matching. Maybe it's not optimized as it could be though.
I suppose one could find some inner spring with different tensions to match the engine's needs.


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## Killzone2142 (Oct 7, 2005)

*Re: So I installed my vtec (VWinA)*

somebody just make this thing so we can all have one


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## marco2.0 (Apr 25, 2006)

*Re: So I installed my vtec (Killzone2142)*

X2 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: So I installed my vtec (marco2.0)*

do they fit all 8v's? like an AEG?


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## pwnt by pat (Oct 21, 2005)

How was installation? Any problems? Did the gear slip into a retarded timing when trying to get everything installed and timed?


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## VWinA (Oct 20, 1999)

*Re: So I installed my vtec (7thGear)*


_Quote, originally posted by *7thGear* »_do they fit all 8v's? like an AEG?

On the AEG, I heard there is a sensor related to the cam that would be fudged up.


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## VWinA (Oct 20, 1999)

*Re: (pwnt by pat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pwnt by pat* »_How was installation? Any problems? Did the gear slip into a retarded timing when trying to get everything installed and timed?

No issues with the installation, no belt slip or anything like that to report.


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## Killzone2142 (Oct 7, 2005)

*Re: (VWinA)*

vwina how much do you want to make me one? serriously how much


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## VDUBIN (Jun 28, 2001)

*Re: (Killzone2142)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Killzone2142* »_vwina how much do you want to make me one? serriously how much









second this... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Killzone2142 (Oct 7, 2005)

*Re: (VDUBIN)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VDUBIN* »_
second this... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

f it just do a group buy!


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## VWinA (Oct 20, 1999)

*Re: (Killzone2142)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Killzone2142* »_
f it just do a group buy!

Uh... Guys, this piece is a retro old-school part that I painstakingly found on vortex 2 years ago (with a lot of luck) that I had redone partially. 
I do not manufacture anything.


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## ABF Jeff (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: (VWinA)*

I have only seen a few of these in person, and the performance is much improved!
VWinA, you are local, right? Any chance I can see it?


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## VDUBIN (Jun 28, 2001)

*Re: (ABF Jeff)*

VWinA, I didn't realize that the request was directed at you personally. I thought it was a general statement of interest. Perhaps you could offer up yours as a model for some replication. If we could get someone with CAD experience near you to CAD it out then we could all get in a group buy and split the cost of production.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: (VDUBIN)*

I know a damn good machine shop that might be interested in producing a run of these.
Who has one that _really_ would be willing to part with it for a decent amount of time for R&D?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Guys...guys...guys.....
Chill. 
USRT is ALL OVER THIS. Just be patient....we'll ALL be rockin' one of these soon enough.


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

even the AEG's?


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## djpj06 (Jul 12, 2005)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_Guys...guys...guys.....
Chill. 
USRT is ALL OVER THIS. Just be patient....we'll ALL be rockin' one of these soon enough.


F*** YEAH http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VDUBIN (Jun 28, 2001)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_Guys...guys...guys.....
Chill. 
USRT is ALL OVER THIS. Just be patient....we'll ALL be rockin' one of these soon enough.

Oh yeah!!! I think it would make a great addition to my 2.0. I wonder what it would do to a turbo 2.0?


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## pwnt by pat (Oct 21, 2005)

I hope to god it'd work for the mk4


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## Rabbit6 (Dec 16, 2000)

*Re: (pwnt by pat)*

there's kinda no point in making a direct copy. for this unit to be truly worth it, there needs to be adjustability. Total timing change, initial timing, end timing, change point, and in a perfect world # of RPMs over which the change takes place. Definitely doable, but will require some clever engineering.


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## VWinA (Oct 20, 1999)

*Re: (Rabbit6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rabbit6* »_there's kinda no point in making a direct copy. for this unit to be truly worth it, there needs to be adjustability. Total timing change, initial timing, end timing, change point, and in a perfect world # of RPMs over which the change takes place. Definitely doable, but will require some clever engineering.

Different weights could take care of the rapidity of transition and shims could stop the weights from starting too low and or going too high. 
I find mine runs awesome as it is, I would go for the original timing changes as they work out good to me. 
On another note, added efficiency adds to gas savings which today could be worth the cost of the gear by itself. Some people have reported gains of around 10%.


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## OptimusGlen (Feb 14, 2002)

*Re: So I installed my vtec (Peter Tong)*

actually, Franco DID die...


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## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

*Re: So I installed my vtec (OptimusGlen)*

Just a bit of info I came across, but it'll do no good if he's dead:
Franco Industries 
Attn: George Franco 
6693 Alcala Knolls Dr. 
San Diego, CA 92111 
(858) 292-7949
I'd love to see this work on a MK4, there must be a way to trick all these fancy sensors, they're such a pain! :lol:
SMG


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

*Re: (VDUBIN)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VDUBIN* »_
Oh yeah!!! I think it would make a great addition to my 2.0. I wonder what it would do to a turbo 2.0?









I dont know, but I'd sure be the test pig for that one! 
Travis, LMK when Steve is done workin his magic with this thing.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (PBWB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PBWB* »_
I dont know, but I'd sure be the test pig for that one! 
Travis, LMK when Steve is done workin his magic with this thing.

I got word that it was finally sent by VWinA last week. They should be getting it soon. 
I'll let you all know when I get the first clone and share my driving experiance.


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## djpj06 (Jul 12, 2005)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

what does VWinA have to do with it?


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## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

*Re: (djpj06)*

he owns an original to base the new ones off of.


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## bigteal (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: (bugasm99)*

sigh* it's no wonder why i will never have any money, USRT keeps coming out with cool s**t like this. of course, you have to have money to spend money. damn mk2


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## djpj06 (Jul 12, 2005)

*Re: (bugasm99)*

i cant work and vortex! D'OH
i was thinking about VWoA.... not VWinA.








im back up to speed.


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_I got word that it was finally sent by VWinA last week. They should be getting it soon. 
I'll let you all know when I get the first clone and share my driving experiance.









F()CKER.


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## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

*Re: (PBWB)*

that gear is smooth..
i'd throw some coin in on one if they launched at USRT.


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## Kougaiji (Apr 8, 2006)

just when I ordered my OTHER adjustable cam gear.

I now see why I will never have money just laying around again... freakin' dub love...


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## sofachamp (May 11, 2005)

*Re: (VWinA)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWinA* »_
I love the way the power feels a lot less peaky now. I have strong low end giving into the always great camed 8v mid-range to a good high rpm rip. It really gave my car an edge.
I had this ongoing discussion about how my NA 2.0L project on a budget (stock bottom end and stock but chipped fuel management) was probably a waste of time. I think that with my current mods without the cam gear, if felt somewhat underwhelming as the top end wasn't quite as aggressive as I wanted and at the expense of some low end to add to it. The 16v motor seemed like the best option and some wise friends suggested that I abandon my NA 8V project to head towards something more rewarding. Well, I believe that the 2.0L 8V was the best choice for me as they cost half as much as the 16v to modify and are a dime a dozen, plus we can still find great examples with low mileage.


ok, so i've got a retarded question: it seems like this cam gear is only good for a 8v head. why won't it work on the 16v engines??? is it b/c the 16v already make good power at the top end? wouldn't something like this only make that good top end even better?


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## abawp (Nov 30, 2005)

The tooth count/arrangement is all wrong. Also, I tend to think that the 16v cam sprocket has a larger diameter than the 8v, but I could be wrong.


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## VWCR8ZY (May 10, 2006)

I would rock one of these


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## dhutchvento (May 8, 2006)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_
I'll let you all know when I get the first clone and share my driving experiance.









up from the crypts http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif .....has any progress been made on this item?????? by USRT...... I browsed their page and didnt see anything as far as a self adjusting cam gear?????
I was daydreaming about this concept to come to realize that someone else has already came up with the idea years ago







.......


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## all-starr-me (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: (dhutchvento)*

I know right? where is Steve anyway? make me a 16v one.


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## ABF Jeff (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: (all-starr-me)*


_Quote, originally posted by *all-starr-me* »_I know right? where is Steve anyway? make me a 16v one.

Last I heard, they had abandoned the idea... problematic and way too expensive to reliably produce in quantity... like 400 bucks to make them.


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## diablodub (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: (ABF Jeff)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABF Jeff* »_
Last I heard, they had abandoned the idea... problematic and way too expensive to reliably produce in quantity... like 400 bucks to make them.









ya but if it made noticeable gains? i would pay top dollar for one


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## ABF Jeff (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: (diablodub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *diablodub* »_
ya but if it made noticeable gains? i would pay top dollar for one









Lots of mods make noticable gains, bud... for that kind of money, I'd rather do headwork, cam, chip... more gain there. Or, you could do a SRI, or K&N and Catback.
Just my 2 cents, but 400 for a cam gear that would probably break and is a pain to adjust to the cam and application, definitely not a top dollar item.


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## dhutchvento (May 8, 2006)

*Re: (ABF Jeff)*

Idunno I was more interested in the concept since I would help a nasty lopey cam idle a bit better -- yet still pull on the upper end as it progressively adjusts..... The mechanism that Franco built looks alot like the centripetal weights that engage a chainsaw clutch....
I just wonder if its possible to modify an adjustable TT cam gear with a similar mechanism......It may not be something that can be easily reproduced and sold on the market -- in mass numbers with the hopes of it not breaking and pissing consumers off.........
But I'm sure that someone with math skills and access to machining tools can make something work......


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## Shteifen (May 12, 2007)

*Re: (dhutchvento)*

just wondering.....what would happen if one or both of the springs on this thing were to snap?


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: (Shteifen)*

back from the dead?whats up did usrt do this?


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## nickposite (Apr 19, 2007)

deffinately an interesting idea.


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## Jay-Bee (Sep 22, 2007)

*FV-QR*

I'm pretty sure Tdogg got a hold of one for a bit, search around. But from what I understand he removed it, it was noisy as feck and I don't think the rebuild of the internals was exactly perfect.
It has not been remade and most likely will never be.
I will let him speak up if he wants to.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

This gear is primarily set up for a MKII 1.8 or stock MKIII 8v power. The weighted springs are designed to open up at approximately 3500 rpms. A stock, small cam is great for this gear. For an engine like mine that doesnt reach full torque till past 4000rpms, it wasnt ideal for me. Im sure if I had replaced the springs with one that opened later, it would have performed better for sure. But I neither had the time or desire to explore such options. I sold it to some Cannuck thats putting it to better use. 
And yea, it was embarrassingly loud at anything under 2000rpms. Like, blown lifters on a diesel loud.


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## Fast2.0L (Oct 12, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (Jay-Bee)*

I have one, and I've looked at making ones with an improved design. The fact is the time has come and gone for these things. 
VW doesn't make 8v's anymore, no one does mechanical cam phasing anymore, and it's really loud. I looked into building them myself and I'd have to sell them for $500 or close to there to make any money. I'll CNC one with my design for myself someday, but marketability isn't there.


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## ghoastoflyle (Jan 21, 2003)

Travis, thanks for a hands on review explaining the cons. Unless you've already done so and I missed it, there's little info as is about this and I haven't read much at all regarding the negatives (besides price).
Obviously it's not a bad idea, but at least right now; the theory is better than the product. 
It's a cool pipe dream


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: (ghoastoflyle)*

ture thanks guys


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (ghoastoflyle)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ghoastoflyle* »_Travis, thanks for a hands on review explaining the cons. Unless you've already done so and I missed it, there's little info as is about this and I haven't read much at all regarding the negatives (besides price).
Obviously it's not a bad idea, but at least right now; the theory is better than the product. 
It's a cool pipe dream 


The theory is sound, but the current design is hack. It would take some serious money and time to develop an updated version of one of these. Some time would have to be spent testing different spring rates for different engine configurations. Meaning you purchase whichever gear is designed to start retarding right after your peak torque). Different materials would be better off used and better machining techniques to make it stronger and a LOT more durable. (The gear I posessed had been gone over by a professional and rebuilt) 
In all honesty, I would totally run an updated version of these types of gears, but the cost would be too much probably. Like I said, its a sound theory. Start off at +7* (which would give you MONSTER torque) and start retarding after your peak torque. You would need to dyno your car, obviously, to know which springs you would need so you get the most power under your torque curve.


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## billyVR6 (May 8, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (Fast2.0L)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jay-Bee* »_I don't think the rebuild of the internals was exactly perfect.

That gear was never rebuilt, the two cover/guide screws were replaced that's it.

Either way, this quote sums it up well...

_Quote, originally posted by *Fast2.0L* »_The fact is the time has come and gone for these things.


... and this is just a little kick in the pants, and a sign of the times.

_Quote, originally posted by *Fast2.0L* »_VW doesn't make 8v's anymore...

I was very excited to unearth one of those gears. I decided that other than a novelty, it would be useless on something that was going to start each race post 5000rpm. By that time this thing would have already done it's business and would have just been a liability.
At the same time, something I wanted to aquire a few years ago became available. I dug deep (or woke up?) and decided that none of this is what I wanted, or would get me to where I want to be, so I got out.


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2008)

Didnt have time to read this whole post. I did however just blow the dust off of ours and call our machine and told them to exspect it shortly.


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## bulldogger72 (Mar 16, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Didnt have time to read this whole post

ya might want the cliff notes then


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

Is yours the one that Hassan (VWinA) sent Steve when he was there a couple years ago to duplicate? I remember getting into this with Steve when he was trying to figure out the math. He gave up on it due to costs I think.


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## pozer (Dec 21, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Didnt have time to read this whole post. I did however just blow the dust off of ours and call our machine and told them to exspect it shortly. 


Don't leave out the 16v.


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## bigandyvw (Jan 21, 2006)

*Re: (djpj06)*


_Quote, originally posted by *djpj06* »_if usrt would make them i would definitely buy one.... top of my list http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

x2


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

*FV-QR*

an updated version would be great.
it's amazing to know this came out so long ago.


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

Fast2.0L said:


> I have one, and I've looked at making ones with an improved design. The fact is the time has come and gone for these things.
> *VW doesn't make 8v's anymore*, no one does mechanical cam phasing anymore, and it's really loud. I looked into building them myself and I'd have to sell them for $500 or close to there to make any money. I'll CNC one with my design for myself someday, but marketability isn't there.


 Well... they make the 2.0 8V again (2011 Jetta) 



[email protected] said:


> Didnt have time to read this whole post. I did however just blow the dust off of ours and call our machine and told them to exspect it shortly.


 well, what's the hold up? 

shame my car has a hall sensor in the cam gear for the crank position sensor...


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

I'm definitely gonna talk to Scott at USRT about this gear shindig. I spoke with him about it a couple years ago, but to no resolution. IIRC, Scott was waiting for someone to give a Franco gear up so he could spec it out.....I don't think the one at the shop wasn't a "working" assembly.


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## Jay-Bee (Sep 22, 2007)

Anyone have a BBW 2.0 cam gear? it's a weird looking unit with an enclosure on it, also if you look at the torque/hp specs it's different from all the other MK4 2.0s, it must be using a very simplified version of this, also the CPS is at the opposite end now, not on the cam gear, but in the head using pickups built into the camshaft end. 

And I can only guess they will be using something BBW related in the MK6, as it's what they've been using in the Canadian "City" models up till 2010. 

What's the weigh-on on the MK6 platform? 115 hp is gonna be painfully slow haha.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Ugh...why was this dragged up again. 

And btw, the new 2.0's in the 6's are _nothing_ like 2.0's of old. Not in any way, shape, or form.


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

tdogg74 said:


> Ugh...why was this dragged up again.
> 
> And btw, the new 2.0's in the 6's are _nothing_ like 2.0's of old. Not in any way, shape, or form.


 have you seen it yet? I haven't


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## Golf2quick0 (Mar 28, 2008)

tdogg74 said:


> Ugh...why was this dragged up again.
> 
> And btw, the new 2.0's in the 6's are _nothing_ like 2.0's of old. Not in any way, shape, or form.


 From what I've read, it appears that the ol' 8v will pretty much be the same in terms if HP output. If they were to do anything, I would imagine them trying to re-spec the head to be direct injection or something. Otherwise, it's the same old AEG/AVH/AZG lump in a new car.


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

tdogg74 said:


> Ugh...why was this dragged up again.


 Because some people don't feel like giving up.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

PBWB said:


> Because some people don't feel like giving up.


 Yea, well, my hats off to whichever manufacturer steps up the plate to dump hours of research, development, prototypes, and dyno time with multiple vehicles in different motor stages. Because there really won't be a 'one gear fits all' deal with this. My guess is that anything developed and sold would need to be sold _with_ with various springs (spring rates) with the gear, to which the purchaser could swap out depending on the torque curve of their motor. (Like what Forge does with their diverter valves; Offer 3-4 spring rates for different boost levels). And of course, this wouldn't just be guess work, or "it feels best with this spring installed". Purchaser would really need to dyno to know which spring to install in their gear. 

And like stated before, the design behind this gear is sound, but the design inherently makes it LOUD below 2000rpms. This is one of the more major issues with the gear....the fact that it makes your motor sound like there's a bunch of rocks inside your head at 2000rpms and below. 

But if someone could put these out, and hit a $350 target price, then they might sell a few of them. Who knows? But its been years and years since the Franco came out, and nobody as of yet has taken the challenge.


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

The loudness can be taken care of. That's not the issue. The issue is if fixing that alone just to corner the market would be worth the cost of fixing how annoying it is. 

The spring rates should be vary, I agree. That indeed would be snazzy. But besides, 75% of R&D ends up being a waste of time. That's why it's there......To figure out if there is a cost effective solution for different products. This would simply be another project on the list of "to do's", but it'll take a significant company to tackle it.


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

tdogg74 said:


> Yea, well, my hats off to whichever manufacturer steps up the plate to dump hours of research, development, prototypes, and dyno time with multiple vehicles in different motor stages. Because there really won't be a 'one gear fits all' deal with this. My guess is that anything developed and sold would need to be sold _with_ with various springs (spring rates) with the gear, to which the purchaser could swap out depending on the torque curve of their motor. (Like what Forge does with their diverter valves; Offer 3-4 spring rates for different boost levels). And of course, this wouldn't just be guess work, or "it feels best with this spring installed". Purchaser would really need to dyno to know which spring to install in their gear.
> 
> And like stated before, the design behind this gear is sound, but the design inherently makes it LOUD below 2000rpms. This is one of the more major issues with the gear....the fact that it makes your motor sound like there's a bunch of rocks inside your head at 2000rpms and below.
> 
> But if someone could put these out, and hit a $350 target price, then they might sell a few of them. Who knows? But its been years and years since the Franco came out, and nobody as of yet has taken the challenge.


 Hell, ONE company could make a living off off making these gears for any car out there (that uses a timing belt anyway...) 
Hondas, VWs, Audis, BMWs, etc...


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Eh, not in today's economy. Maybe do all the work and have various companies sell them. But I highly doubt that even if these were re-engineered, they wouldn't meet a price point that most would buy at. Something in a $150-$200 price range, and these wouldn't stay on the shelf with proper Vortex whoring. But go over that, and your number of potential buyers dwindle. Sort of like back in the day when Greg was selling his HKK manifolds for hella cheap. His price point was dead on for the market and quite a few people bought one. Once he left the market, others stepped in and sold them for 25% more. It's about price. 

But that's only one piece of the puzzle. Redesign one to function properly and NOT self-destruct is another issue. Aluminum could be used, but timing belts eat aluminum gears for breakfast. So I would stick with steel, which raises costs. You could re-use old OEM gears, but finding them becomes the hassle. Testing multiple springs and weights for proper timing becomes a timely affair. And unless you got free access to a dyno, add in that cost. 

I'm certainly not against something like this coming to market, its just that I've been involved with two separate individuals that attempted this over the past 8 years, and they both gave up because it wasn't worth it in the long run. And being a former owner of one of these, I can see why.


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

wait... did I know your Golf is gone?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

I don't know, did you?


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

I'm willing to bet that these 2 guys you speak of aren't in the decision makers for a big company.....But if someone's got the time, it can happen. And you can find stock cam gears ALL day long. Hell I have around 10 sittin in my garage, and I'm nobody.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

PBWB said:


> I'm willing to bet that these 2 guys you speak of aren't in the decision makers for a big company.....But if someone's got the time, it can happen. And you can find stock cam gears ALL day long. Hell I have around 10 sittin in my garage, and I'm nobody.


 You have no idea of the people I know and speak with, so don't assume anything.  I too have a few gears kicking around. 

That being said, I've spoken my thoughts on this. I really do hope someone steps up and makes one. I'll be one of the first in line to buy one to collect dust next to other one-off 8v parts in my basement.  I'll be back in a built N/A 8v again someday.......


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

tdogg74 said:


> I don't know, did you?


 no


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Too much low sucked up road debris into the engine bay and caught on fire on the Mass Pike on 5/26. 
I drive a B5 now.


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

tdogg74 said:


> I'll be back in a built N/A 8v again someday.......


 Not soon enough.


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## Golf2quick0 (Mar 28, 2008)

> Too much low sucked up road debris into the engine bay and caught on fire on the Mass Pike on 5/26.
> 
> I drive a B5 now.


 Wow. Seriously? What the hell did it manage to ingest?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Road trash? I don't know. Its the only logical explanation I can come up with. Either that or maybe some wiring decided to take a sh*t and melt. But this thread isnt about my old car. PM me if you want.


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## Golf2quick0 (Mar 28, 2008)

tdogg74 said:


> Road trash? I don't know. Its the only logical explanation I can come up with. Either that or maybe some wiring decided to take a sh*t and melt. But this thread isnt about my old car. PM me if you want.


 No worries, dude. Just a passing interest.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

FOr posterity, I put all my Franco photos in a public album for anyone to look at. :thumbup: 

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v441/allmotor8v/Franco gear/


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## akid420 (Apr 23, 2009)

I know there are lots of legal boundaries but if ignored how much (estimate) would it cost a machines/fabricator to duplicate a Franco gear?


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

akid420 said:


> I know there are lots of legal boundaries but if ignored how much (estimate) would it cost a machines/fabricator to duplicate a Franco gear?


 Well, the guy is dead... no one else has taken up the reins. Has anyone verified that this is indeed copywritten? 
if it is, what's needed to get the rights to it. Do the rights only pertain to VW/Audis? I mean, the idea of a self advancing cam gear can't be entirely copywritten to this one guy. Especially now that there are other cam phasing tricks done with computers and ****


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

all this talk is well and good
but the 8v head is a piss poor design with bad flow...the end
Blow boat loads of air through it with a turbo...or just go slow


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## vento86 (Oct 13, 2008)

when was the production date on these?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

like 1987.

I wish I had machining equipment. I got at least 3 ideas on how to make a new design work....one of them is a VVT setup with solenoids and oil pressure and everything. (think Vanos)

$10 PayPal'd to the first person who can give me in-depth data and photos on the BBW cam gear that came on the 2002-2005 PZEV Jettas


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## Jay-Bee (Sep 22, 2007)

tdogg74 said:


> $10 PayPal'd to the first person who can give me in-depth data and photos on the BBW cam gear that came on the 2002-2005 PZEV Jettas


I've looked through ETKA, VESIS, VAGcat and the Bentley and never seen an "exploded" view pic of it.

Some one is gonna have to find one in the junkyard some day, chances are it sells for a ridiculous price from the dealer.


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## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

http://www.mk1dubz.com/forums/showthread.php?t=516



DefHare said:


> More info on these Franco gears for anyone that wants to know.
> Franco Industries website>>> http://thorin.adnc.com/~figf/
> Also..apparently VW may have made a similar gear for certain 8v mk4 engines (engine code BBW). This is a US spec engine as well but i guess not very many of them. Theyre said to have variable cam timing and have THIS cam gear on them... which is titled "cam gear adjuster unit (cam gear)". Part # 06A 109 087
> Pretty cool stuff.












Anyone have any info on this looks like a TT one:laugh:




Dieder said:


> can anyone tell me what i've got here



Franco one


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

VWinA said:


> The cam gear was rebuilt by a local guy.
> I brought it to my mechanic for installation and we did so. *Installation went well, we even looked at how the timing varied with a timing light.* It was pretty cool!
> We then tried the car on the road and the car ran like crap.
> We changed the timing on the cam gear (one tooth more -) and it was better but not great.
> ...


 impossible.. the only thing that the cam timing has an impact on, is the valve timing.. because the dizzy timing is off the timing belt, thru the IM shaft, not off the cam.. so the cam gear moving around and changing the valve timing has nothing to do with the ignition timing changing.. 

its supposed to change when you vary the rpms.. it has electronic ign w/ a knock sensor.. its not just going to be statically timed.. its gonna jump all over the place.. 

thats why this gear works so good, it retards the cam timing without retarding the ign timing..


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

yea...um...relax....he's talking about watching timing of the the cam gear operating under a strobe (timing) light. 
I did the same thing when I had one on my car.


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## mk2dub69 (May 22, 2010)

if you can get him to make them i will throw down money to get one, i want v tak in my aba, the concept is great actually. if you get him to meke on please pm me, id apreciate it, thanks 
jonah


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## vento86 (Oct 13, 2008)

tdogg74 said:


> like 1987.
> 
> I wish I had machining equipment. I got at least 3 ideas on how to make a new design work....one of them is a VVT setup with solenoids and oil pressure and everything. (think Vanos)
> 
> $10 PayPal'd to the first person who can give me in-depth data and photos on the BBW cam gear that came on the 2002-2005 PZEV Jettas


 send me some drawings with measurements and ill see if i can put them on a cad program and send them to the shop, im going to school for engineering and we have access to a machine that makes stuff.


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

what's this about 06A 109 087? 

nevermind 
found travis' post about how they suck and aren't variable


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## Keefover (Jul 10, 2014)

I really hate to bump a 5 year old thread but I am going to reproduce this timing advance gear. Does anyone have one I could buy off of them in order to accomplish this task. I plan on making different variations of the gear available for multiple platforms. Any help in the matter would be appreciated. Feel free to contact me at overspeedmotorsports at gmail. Com

Thanks,
Jordan


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Keefover said:


> I really hate to bump a 5 year old thread but I am going to reproduce this timing advance gear. Does anyone have one I could buy off of them in order to accomplish this task. I plan on making different variations of the gear available for multiple platforms. Any help in the matter would be appreciated. Feel free to contact me at overspeedmotorsports at gmail. Com
> 
> Thanks,
> Jordan


I opened my photobucket folder with all my Franco **** in it to look at. Hope that helps. 

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/allmotor8v/library/Franco gear?sort=3&page=1

The gear, in theory, works. In practice, not so much. The spring action was all off. It really needed a different spring to be able to retard at different RPMS according to specific powerbands dictated by cam profiles. Oh, and it was loud as hell. Embarrassingly loud, like you had rod knock or something. Im thinking, if you can reproduce the original using lightweight aluminum, test different spring weights to advance at specific rpms, you might have something good to sell.


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

yeah, and add something to quiet it for sure.


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## Keefover (Jul 10, 2014)

Awesome!!! Thanks for the pictures. I need to get my hands on one of these before I can do anything. As with any engineering it's good to see what worked (or didn't) and go from there.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

I wish you the best of luck. They are rarer than hens teeth.


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