# CIS Basic running a 16v motor



## 2mAn (Oct 15, 2006)

Thats my plan. The car is an 80 jetta coupe that came stock with CIS Basic. Im installing a 16v right now. I know the 16v's had fueling issues at the higher rpms so im planning on making an adjustable WUR to compensate. Im hoping someone has already done this and can give me some pointers. I have been doing research on it and it seems like it will work as long as i can get the pressure correct. However i have heard that cars with an adjustable WUR had hot start issues... anyone have experience? TIA


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

*Re: CIS Basic running a 16v motor (2mAn)*

It will work fine with CIS basic. CIS-E leaned out upstairs by design. CIS basic will not. rock on.


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## ultravw (Oct 27, 2009)

*Re: CIS Basic running a 16v motor (2mAn)*

I have experience with a 16 valve turbo in an 83 GTI runing on stock CIS with the O2 sensor being CIS-E but not the KE normally used on the 1.8 16V. You will need the 16V knock box for the ignition and it will work without the CIS-KE 16V fuel injection ECU. I had to run extra injectors above 6 psi boost to keep the exhaust temperature under control. I was able to achieve about 30 mpg with a six speed box and with great driveability.








I used a good stock WUR without problems. The WUR pressure needs to compensate properly with the engine's temperature and not have excessive leak down to help avoid hot start issues.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: CIS Basic running a 16v motor (2mAn)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2mAn* »_ Im hoping someone has already done this and can give me some pointers.

Not just someone, but Volkswagen did it from the beginning. The CIS-e was an after the fact install and I am very sure it was done for the US market as the basic CIS version, code KR, was used for years in Europe. Do some research on the KR code 16v engine and that should help you. You don't need all that flash and sparkle stuff to do it, just some factory parts which might be rough to get (try Ebay UK or Germany). I've had a few KR engines and converted a few PL engines to KR steups over the years, very very simple.


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## Uberocco83 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: CIS Basic running a 16v motor (2mAn)*

Ive had 3 great running CIS Basic 16v cars. A couple had different fuel distributors and wurs than stock like VWMS distributors and the Audi turbo wur but the one that was bone stock ran the best. It was a NOS fuel distributor and a NOS wur. As long as you have a GOOD wur that functions properly then you wont really need to make it adjustable and you dont really need one that has vacuum enrichment either. Ive tried lowering the control pressure a little to richen things up a couple times and it ran like crap. I really recommend that you find a new one if you doubt yours at all especially if its been on the car since 1980. You also dont need to worry about an ISV either. Just make sure you have proper system pressure and control pressure. It helps to have a wideband a alot. You need a CIS-E knock harness and knock box which is simple to wire in. They can be had for cheap, Ive just found one on here for a new project I have in my mk1 Jetta but its ABA/RD head with some goodies.


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## Grabbit (Apr 27, 2001)

*Re: CIS Basic running a 16v motor (Uberocco83)*

Question,
I've got most everything for replicating a KR setup, what WUR should i run? I snagged on off a audi 5000 turbo the other day and one came with the euro fuel dizzy I have. Not sure which kind it is though...........


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: CIS Basic running a 16v motor (Grabbit)*

If it's just to get it up and running, you can do that with a normal 8v control pressure regulator (WUR). It will not get the extra enrichment during full throttle bursts but will run fine. I tested both the KR regulator and the Audi one about 4 years ago using an exhaust gas analyzer and fount the Audi to be a bit too rich for my liking. What is the part number of the regulator which cam with the fuel distributor? Does it have a vacuum nipple on the side?
You say you have about everything to do a KR replication, Ignition control box? Idle stabilization control box? Deceleration valve? Intake camshaft?


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## 2mAn (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: CIS Basic running a 16v motor (WaterWheels)*

awesome news guys thanks so much! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Grabbit (Apr 27, 2001)

*Re: CIS Basic running a 16v motor (WaterWheels)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WaterWheels* »_
You say you have about everything to do a KR replication, Ignition control box? Idle stabilization control box? Deceleration valve? Intake camshaft? 

I have the KR Fuel Dizzy/lines/injectors, Iginition control box I'm going to probably run ABF cams or stock PL cams. I dont have the Idle stabilization box or decleration valve. 
Can i use the US spec idel stab valve and box? I've never heard of a deceleration valve.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

The PL idle valve no, but a Digi one will work. Are you trying to replicate the KR engine or just run a PL 16v on Basic CIS? True KR parts will have to come from Europe and the control boxes, ignition and idle, are a bit on the expensive side even used.


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## Grabbit (Apr 27, 2001)

*Re: (WaterWheels)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WaterWheels* »_The PL idle valve no, but a Digi one will work. Are you trying to replicate the KR engine or just run a PL 16v on Basic CIS? True KR parts will have to come from Europe and the control boxes, ignition and idle, are a bit on the expensive side even used.

I just want to get it to run good without all the CIS-e stuff and not lean out up top. So i just need to find a digi idle valve and control unit? What is a deceleration valve? BTW the WURs i have have part numbers:
027-133-403 (came with the KR fuel dizzy I got)
034-133-403A (snagged it off a audi 5000t at a yard)


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (Grabbit)*

Run good for street or auto-x,,,what? We had this CIS-Lamda 1980 Scirocco running w/ a PL. W/O the idle valve w/ the 16V knock box. The car made 123whp w/ stock exhaust mani and a modded 8V tt dp and a 2.25" exhaust. The car was a little cold blooded on cold mornings, but once warm ran very well. The car is used for auto-x mainly and was not street driven very often.







But was fun when it was.








The WUR is not mounted on the block(it is behind the red catch can next to the airbox), nor is the electical connector plugged in and the 5th injector is not hooked up.(Hence the cold-blooded-ness.)
The motor siezed and oil pump after it sucked up one of the bolts that holds the pick-up to the oil pump (that will get loctite on the next one), and is moving on from CIS to ITB's and MS. But on the CIS, the AFR's held steady at upper rpm's during the dyno and performed very well. CIS can and does work very well. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 



_Modified by ps2375 at 10:07 PM 1-1-2010_


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## 2mAn (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: (ps2375)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ps2375* »_Run good for street or auto-x,,,what? We had this CIS-Lamda 1980 Scirocco running w/ a PL. W/O the idle valve w/ the 16V knock box. The car made 123whp w/ stock exhaust mani and a modded 8V tt dp and a 2.25" exhaust. The car was a little cold blooded on cold mornings, but once warm ran very well. The car is used for auto-x mainly and was not street driven very often.







But was fun when it was.


mines going to be a street car. i am planning on hooking up the 5th injector, but basically your setup sounds close to what i will have as its a stock rebuilt 1.8 with a stock mani and a modified TT downpipe that was for an 8v originally. was yours a 1.8 as well? 123whp is pretty good, im curious to see what the dyno sheet looks like if you got one. I still gotta get my hands on a 16v knock box...


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## 2mAn (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: (WaterWheels)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WaterWheels* »_The PL idle valve no, but a Digi one will work. Are you trying to replicate the KR engine or just run a PL 16v on Basic CIS? True KR parts will have to come from Europe and the control boxes, ignition and idle, are a bit on the expensive side even used.

Im just trying to run my PL 16v on CIS Basic.... The only additional parts it looks like I will need are the knock box and a good WUR, though im not entirely sure mine isnt functioning right, though it is 30 years old so who knows....
I could care less about replicating a euro setup.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (2mAn)*

We have the whole setup, from the car and is available.







From the airbox to the injectors, TB w/ switches to box. And we have a ported TB that was put on after the dyno.


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## 2mAn (Oct 15, 2006)

how the F am i going to wire up the hall sender? snag a connector from another 16v? i dont have one in my hand so im pretty confused. wiring has always been my achilles heel
pic of where im at right now 










_Modified by 2mAn at 10:34 PM 1-26-2010_


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (2mAn)*

A connector from any hall sender type dizzy will work.


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## 2mAn (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: (ps2375)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ps2375* »_A connector from any hall sender type dizzy will work.

sweet, now i just gotta find one http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif thanks


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## Uberocco83 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (2mAn)*

Do you have the cis-e knock harness and box? You need that.


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## 2mAn (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: (Uberocco83)*

nope, only thing i have from the cis-e setup is the fuel dist. box


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (2mAn)*

We have the 16V knock box w/ harness ready to put in for a 16V on CIS. And a "Velocity" ported TB also. IM me if you are interested.


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## 2mAn (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: (ps2375)*

im in the final stage now guys, I got the knock box and the ported throttle body from ps2375 (sorry, i never got your name) and everything looks great. ill have a final pic of the motor and also a rolling shot too hopefully. eventually ill also have a dyno plot and ill update that here as well. i decided against the 5th injector because it seemed more of a PITA to deal with than its worth. the 1.6 i yanked out didnt have the 5th injector hooked up and it wasnt that bad to deal with in the cold mornings .
almost there!


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (2mAn)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Pete


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## ellocolindo (Jan 15, 2010)

i want to see the end result also. i am putting a turbo in my passat and want to run cis no electronic crap on iot.
i have the harness and knock box for a 16v. i am picking up a volvo turbo FD or a mercedes benz v8 one. the wur . besides audis; what other cars can i use? did mercedes ever run that or a old volvo is the same?
thanks for the info in this thread.


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## 2mAn (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: (ellocolindo)*

ok its all done, drivin it a few times. still waiting on a new downpipe so the exhaust can get installed then im off to the races!







not really, just breaking everything in right now. 25 miles down 975 or so to go








and a crappy pic, but its not in the garage!








16v + 2H =


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (2mAn)*

All looks very tidy. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif What muffler will you be running? Here's what our's sounded like with a SuperTrapp at the rear.



_Modified by ps2375 at 9:33 PM 2-25-2010_


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## Uberocco83 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (2mAn)*

Man, I love those wheels. What are they speedlines or something?


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## 2mAn (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: (Uberocco83)*

yup 14" speedlines, i love em! drove the car a bunch today before work. gotta get my exhaust and downpipe done. ill be deaf soon!








its going to be a 2.25" TT exhaust with a flowmaster muffler


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (2mAn)*

Do the Dynomax before the Flowmaster. We had the Flowmaster on after the SuperTrapp got bent, and it is very loud. For a street driven car, I wouldn't do it. And I have not heard anything good about gains with them.


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## 2mAn (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: (ps2375)*

actually, thinking about it now, it is a dynomax. i asked for the flowmaster but the dynomax was cheaper and TT said it sounds very similar to the more expnsive borla


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (2mAn)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Uberocco83 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (2mAn)*

What I usually do is buy the exhaust from TT without a muffler, so its like $180-$200. Then buy a Borla from Summit because TT charges too much for Borla mufflers. You can get a one from Summit for like $120-$130. If you dont want one of those the you should try a Dynomax UltraFlo. They are straight through, sound good and are pretty cheap and last long. I personally hate Dynomax Super Turbo mufflers. They might usually last a year before they clap out and start rattling and sounding like ****, especially on a 16v. 16v's in my experience run better with a straight through muffler.


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## 2mAn (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: (Uberocco83)*

so in the first few gallons im averaging ~15mpg! ive got my T-handle 3mm allen and i want to dial it in. i know this is very difficult without having an A/F gauge, but do you guys have any pointers?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (2mAn)*

If it is very rich, as you lean it out at idle, the rpm's should rise up when you get close to stoic and then lower as you go lean. But to set the final mixture, some sort of A/F gauge is needed.


_Modified by ps2375 at 7:40 AM 3-1-2010_


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## Uberocco83 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (2mAn)*

Innovate LC-1 is what you need.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (Uberocco83)*

Or this controller from http://www.14point7.com . 








And you can get the Gage for it and a sensor. I think for this and the sensor we spent $140 shipped. It is fully programmable and can be a permanent or temp install.


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## 2mAn (Oct 15, 2006)

someone mentioned i can use a multimeter to tune it? i think they may have my car confused with a CIS-e car, i havent even looked in my bentley yet. no time to work on the car til this weekend, but im pretty sure CIS-e can use the multi-meter...
another friend said to just reference the spark plugs and keep messing with **** til they are brown







i think i might try that method since i can get some cheapo plugs til its spot on.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (2mAn)*

That can get you close, high or low, but you also need to know how to read them. You could send them off to Jack Roush, I hear he is VERY good at reading plugs.


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## Grabbit (Apr 27, 2001)

*Re: (ps2375)*

What are you guys using for the idle stabilizer valve?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (Grabbit)*

When we had the setup on our car, nothing.


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## 2mAn (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: (Grabbit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Grabbit* »_What are you guys using for the idle stabilizer valve?

ISV? my right foot


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (2mAn)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Grabbit (Apr 27, 2001)

*Re: (ps2375)*

^ still want a some what smooth idle. I want to be able to drive the car in traffic without worry its going to die or idle at 1500


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## 2mAn (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: (Grabbit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Grabbit* »_^ still want a some what smooth idle. I want to be able to drive the car in traffic without worry its going to die or idle at 1500

ill let you know how it goes for me, thats what im working on right now since its my daily. right now my main focus is to get some miles on it since its a fresh rebuilt motor


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## Grabbit (Apr 27, 2001)

*Re: (2mAn)*

^ I looked at your pics and saw two different blocks, a 1.8 and a 2.0, which was rebuilt? what size is the motor? I found a crack in the head that i was planning on rebuilding so I'm looking at finding a junkyard 9a and just rebuilding it and could use some tips here and there.......


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (Grabbit)*

Ours idled at around 1k rpm even with the exhaust cam mod and a header. And with a normal clutch would've been just fine as a daily, that is once it is warmed up. The t-body does have an idle adjust screw. So, it was just like any other CIS car, but w/o the Aux Air Valve. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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