# Megasquirt in my 16v.



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

I recently finished reading through all 16 pages of horror of My Old Rocs megasquirt install thread and I AINT SCARED!
just as the title says, I want to install megasquirt in my 16 valve. I want to get rid of the hideous airbox above all. clean up my engine bay, strip out ten pounds of wires and so on.








_(I stole this pic)_
_edit: before anyone says it, I am still reading the official megasquirt in a 16v faq thread right now._ http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1377841
so lets begin:
I wanted to build a kit. (I like soldering) so I went with the DIYAutotune kit and it was awesome. highly recomended.
I would like to get rid of my distributor eventually,(see stage 2) so I will need a special crank trigger wheel and crank position sensor to do that. thankfully a kit for this is available from 034motorsport for about 225, http://www.034motorsport.com/p...d=454 and theres a lesser known setup from a lupo or polo that some people are reporting success with. see that one here:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3516017
has anyone else on here done this to a 16v yet that might have compiled a complete parts list for the project?
the end result will be cleaning up this:








so that the whole car will look like this:








and I wont be ashamed to open my hood at the next car show.








--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT: I am moving my parts list to the original post and I will edit it as things change. 
PARTS LIST: (* means I have it)
Tools
1 x Jimstim 65$ (diyautotune) *
1x Koul tools hose fitting installer tool *
Stage 1
1 x 2.0L 9a block *
1 x Euro Intake cam *
1x 16v Throttle Body with TPS *
1 x 16v fuel rail 139$ * - Bahn Brenner
4 x Digifant "Fuel injector holder" (4.80 ea from GAP) *
4 x 1.8t injectors. (High impedance, 30.15lb/hr ~320cc/min.) (used, free)* 
EDIT: those injectors suck. they are too short for that rail. I had the tubes pop off the rail and spray fuel everywhere. NOT FUN. now I am using G60 injectors. also high impedance, at 26lb/hr
4 x bosch injector pigtail plugs (diyauto 26$ total) * -(also see mouser.com for these plugs for 1.09$, and pins for .22 each)
1 x 2,7/8" intake air tube $5 napa*
1 x 3" cone type air filter (free, found on side of road)*
1 x Intake Air Temp sensor (open element with plug) (diyautotune) 20$ *
1 x megasquirt kit. 250$ (diyautotune) *
1 x 12 feet of cable, 40$ (diyautotune) *
1 x Aeromotive 1000 -6 Fuel Pressure Regulator 140$ *
1 x wideband 02 sensor 300$ (Innovate LC-1) *
1 x relay board kit 65$ (diyautotune) *
1x Coolant temp sensor (not needed - using stock sensor)
Assorted fuel hoses and fittings from Jegs, summit, and 034 ~180$
- Jegs Elite Series hose fittings -
1x 90* -6AN hose fitting 15.99$*
5x straight -6AN hose fittings 8.99 each*
2x -6AN to ORB fpr fittings 6.99 each*
1x -6 AN ORB plug. 5.99$
6ft Jegs Pro-Flo stainless braided hose 26.99$ 
2x vw hard line(14mm x1.50 inverted flare) to -6AN adapters - 11.99 eachsummit, 034, Jegs
more assorted AMP style plugs and pins and stuff from mouser.com 
1x dual input knock sensor kit. "KnockSense" 73$ http://www.viatrack.ca/
Stage 2: dizzy replacement
1 x 16v Crank Trigger Kit 225$ (034motorsports or the Polo/Lupo setup)
1 x High Output 4-Cyl Waste Spark Coil 75$ (034motorsports)
stage 3: turbo (could happen some day)
1x turbo manifold ~400-700$
1x turbo 1billion$
1x waste gate
1x compression lowering head gasket or turbo pistons
Dont need:
MAP sensor - the megasquirt ECU has one built in, just need to run a hose to it. 
_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 2:25 PM 8-4-2009_


_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 4:20 PM 4-7-2010_


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

I should mention that I have a carputer built into my center console already, so the megasquirt ecu will be permanently connected to that.
*EDIT: actually no. I have since removed my carputer. *










_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 2:25 PM 6-25-2009_


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

some questions:
If I remember right, the old megasquirt required a different board if you wanted to drive the spark too instead of using a dizzy. is that still true? or will the MSII handle that now?
can a MAP sensor work as a replacement for a throttle body with TPS?
do I need an additional coolant temp sensor or will the stock one suffice?
what kind of injectors do I need to fit into the 16v head? the stock injectors are long and narrow, not like any other injectors I have seen.
thanks for the help


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## dvn02 (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Officially added to watched topics
I too am looking to go this route and get rid of all that lovely stuff around the airbox...


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## TooClutchVW (Apr 9, 2004)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (dvn02)*

Im in the process of MS soon, but for what you need it sounds like youll need...
16v fuel rail, or custom made 1.8t(ugly)
distributor block off plate
coil pack 
injectors really depends on what your doing but 30 lbs/hr should work fine 
crank trigger and pulley
theres a special coolant adapter which you can rob off n older saturn IIRC
fuel lines/ fpr
MAYBE a passat TB with TPS theres people better at this than me but this is what Ive gathered, I would suggest frequenting the carbs/itb forum
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zeroforum?id=517
they are a very valuable resource. DIYautotune.com IIRC is where you would be best off for getting parts, NOT SCAMMATRON!!!















but what you need most of all is PATIENCE!!!!!
good luck and just bug timbo to help


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

yes you can eliminate the distributor with MSnS, 034 motorsports sells a full bolt on kit, and has everything for this conversion
some questions:
If I remember right, the old megasquirt required a different board if you wanted to drive the spark too instead of using a dizzy. is that still true? or will the MSII handle that now? ms1 v3 is what you would want if you were running crank trigger, yes ms2 can also handle this
can a MAP sensor work as a replacement for a throttle body with TPS? yes it can, you have the choice to run a TPS or MAP for the accel enrichment
do I need an additional coolant temp sensor or will the stock one suffice? you can configure the MS to read the stock sensor 
what kind of injectors do I need to fit into the 16v head? the stock injectors are long and narrow, not like any other injectors I have seen. you need digifant injector cups, they screw right in. you need a EFI injector, the stock 1.8t or g60 are about perfect for an NA 16v
thanks for the help







no prob


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## TheTimob (Sep 13, 2003)

You can use the stock distributor with the stock hall sender for RPM pickup. Megasquirt can fire the coil itself, so you don't need the ECU
I HIGHLY reccomend the V3.0 PCB, weather you go MS1 or MS2 chip, that's up to you - I have experience with MS1 - with MSnS-E code on it.
Get the kit from DIYautotune. They are the best. Everything is labeled.
I use GM sensors for Coolant temp and Intake air temp. I believe they are more reliable. However, VW sensors can be used easy enough with eztherm.


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (timbo2132)*

i believe he wants to get rid of the distributor, and that can be done in several ways. crank trigger via v3 setup or ford EDIS with the 2.2 etc..there are so many different ways to do ignition its insane








an yes if you want to build a kit, go through diyautotune.com http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## TheTimob (Sep 13, 2003)

*Re: (VWralley)*

Oh, yeah!! Reading comprehension>me








Yeah -that 034 kit is really neato!
There's a lot of options for triger wheels. You might even be able to use a 20v Cam position sensor on the 16v head. DIYautotune has a couple of universal ones. you could also glue a couple o magnets onto your crank pulley and make a sensor outa that.
An ABA block has a crank trigger wheel built in. Might check that out.


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (timbo2132)*


_Quote, originally posted by *timbo2132* »_There's a lot of options for triger wheels. You might even be able to use a 20v Cam position sensor on the 16v head. DIYautotune has a couple of universal ones. you could also glue a couple o magnets onto your crank pulley and make a sensor outa that.


i dont think you can use a cam sensor, i inquired about this and apparently those dont work because there is not enough trigger events per rotation as the cam spins twice as fast as the crank or something along those lines. im not 100% on this, but i did look into it a little an found a cam sensor doesnt work to trigger ignition.


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (VWralley)*

so, a trigger wheel on the crank pull then. too bad something couldnt be fabbed up under the valve cover.








this 034 motorsport has a few thigns I was looking for. nice link.
does anyone know the difference between the megastim 2.2 and jimstim 1.3?

Note:
one reason I am building this megasquirt system, is so I can eventually track down a 1.8t and do a motor swap without worrying about needing the entire ECU and wiring harness out of the donor car. this makes it a LOT easier to order one though a junk yard.


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

the megastim is for just ms v2.2 board and has to be modified to test other ecu's (i believe) the jim stim is a more universal type tester.
i dont build ecu's though so that would be worht double checking


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (VWralley)*

I was already planning on going with the ms2 v3 board with the newer chip. 
how about this waste spark coil here:
http://www.034motorsport.com/p...id=40
and this crank trigger wheel 
http://www.034motorsport.com/p...d=454
altho it just occured to me that that is made to fit a 16v with vbelts, and that doesnt quite agree with my plan to do the serpentine belt conversion. hmmm.








this fuel rail, 
http://www.034motorsport.com/p...d=791
Im still dont quite understand the injectors thing. stock 1.8t injectors do not look at all like they will fit down the tiny holes that the 16v injectors are in.
are you saying that those holes are just a cup and can be removed to make way for the digifant cups?
anyway, I found these at URST, think they might be what I need?
http://www.usrallyteam.com/ind...d=345 
and looking at those, I dont see how that fuel rail will attach to them.








what kind of wideband o2 sensor do I need? shouldnt I just need the sensor and not all the extra stuff?
what fuel pressure regulator should I go with? the only one listed on 034 is a 5bar. I got the impression that megasquirt preferred a lower pressure FPR, but I cant remember where I saw that....


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

EDIT: moved parts list to the bottom of the original post.
still need to pick out the exact FPR, piles of assorted wiringbits, maybe figure out some sort of idle air control solution, and on and on and on....


_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 4:02 PM 3-15-2008_


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

415cc inj are HUGE, those are aimed at like 3-400hp boosted motors. you need around a 24lb/hr. the stock 1.8t and stock g60 are found everywhere for pretty cheap and id highly recomend an injector service if youbuy used.
for the injectors, you remove the brass injector cups from the manifold, and screw in 8v digifant plastic injector cups, the efi injectors fit right in. 
for the FPR, i personally prefer the aeromotive a1000, its a stand-off type and go for about 134, but it is fully adjustable and has a boost reference port if you ever go forced induction. i also recomend you use the Jegs Push-loc hose and fittings, very good quality, and good for up to like 240psi. ive used this setup on all of my installs and never once had an issue.
for the wideband, the innovate stuff is pretty nice, but i find it to be a little on the finicky side, the AEM uego setup has proven very reliable thus far in two cars my roomate built. both work well, and the innovate one with the guage has worked great in a good friends car i did recently 


_Modified by VWralley at 11:48 AM 3-15-2008_


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (VWralley)*

thanks for all the useful information. I have a lead on the stock 1.8t injectors, fuel rail and throttle body. Im going to modify my original post with my parts list and change it as I get things bought. 
what do you mean by "injector service" ?
I have an 92 8v digifant motor in the corner of my garage. Ill chek it out and see if I can get the old cups out. nothing wrong with reusing them right?
thanks for the tip on the jegs hose. I was thinking about that last night. that stuff looks perfect.
as for the wideband, do I need a controller or can I just get a sensor and depend on the megasquirt ecu to interperet its signal? I dont understand why they sell these wideband sensors all with controllers. what is there to control? its a SENSOR!
</rant>








also: do I need an exaust gas temp sensor or will a good wideband o2 sensor be good enough?


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

an injector service is basically cleaning an balancing for even flow, def do it if you buy used injectors, ive had a ton of issues come up on long term setups without having them cleaned before use. 
buy new cups, they are like $3 each







old ones may not seal as well an could possibly crack and like i said, new ones are cheap. they have an o-ring the seals the bottom and that can actually cause a vacuum leak
yes jegs hose is badass, i love that stuff haha
the wideband needs a controller to interperet the data and give you an accurate reading. the main purpose is for tuning, but its not a bad idea to have it send info to the MS to help you cruise economy. you will want the LC-1 w/ guage or th AEM uego. i found it more difficult to tune without being able to see a guage outside the MS, and also you can use the wideband for doing datalogging, which helps smooth out the tune once you get it close while drive tuning.


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (VWralley)*

I have a computer in the car already. not a laptop, but a 7" touchscreen lcd in my center console. works great as a GPS, and I have some 40+ gigs of mp3s on there too.








I figure I can leave the megasquirt software running on it and log all the time..
Im not that excited about paying for the controller and having yet another guage in my dash.. I got a friend who is going to Give me a wideband sensor, if megasquirt can interface with it without need of the other 200$ controller and guage, then I might opt for that. 
I have to find ways to cut corners, without doing it *wrong*...
what can be done to an injector to adjust them? can they be taken apart and tuned? I thought they were just so and that was that...


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## Zender (Jun 30, 2004)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

This is what I recommend....DTH Direct to Head:
http://www.twminduction.com/Th....html
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (Zender)*

*laugh*
BIG MONEY!!


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

there really is no point to constantly running datalogs, once the car is tuned its done and you dont have to touch it again until you make a change in the motor. 
having the guages pulled up so you can monitor stuff would be sweet, but really there is no need to plan on running logs all the time. you gotta remember, the 02 sends a signla that the ecu does not know, the controller interperets that an puts it out as a lambda reading that the standalone can recognize, there is no built in wideband controller in the MS, just a sensor wont do you any good. there is a ton of info on this on the Innovate site (tuneyourengine.com)
the injectors are sized, and you pick and choose the size that best fits your power goals for the motor. proper injector selection is critical in how well your car will perform. do some reading an learn about this stuff a bit more, there is a ton of info in the megamanual about all this stuff you are asking about


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (VWralley)*

yup. been reading like crazy. lots of good info. lots of overwhelming info too. heh. my head hurts.
I think I am going to do this in stages. instead of shelling out all the extra money for the trigger wheel and VR sensor and coil, Ill just use the hall sensor on the stock dizzy. ultimately I want to get rid of the dizzy, but one thing at a time...


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

good call, that setup does work more than ok on 16v's ive never used a crank trigger setup myself, and ive done about 10 16v's so far. the only issue you really come upon is with older dizzy's that leak or have bad hall senders







other than that no issues for me in the last 4 years...besides a bad wire to the hall the made the ms shut down randomly while driving, that was fun


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (VWralley)*

Ive rebuilt my share of leaky dizzy's - which is the main reason I want to get rid of it.









come to think of it, I even wrote a DIY on how to rebuild a dizzy on here. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I can still use MS and spark to drive my ignition coil with dizzy cant I? 
as for the wideband, - I dont understand what the point of it is if it isnt patched into megasquirt all the time. is it just for getting the tuning right to start and then its ignored? I havent got that far in the megamanual...


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

no, the ms board itself cannot drive the coil on its own. well i believe you can make it work, but the spark output is dreadfull at best. set it up to use the vw ICM and use a Mallory 6a ignition box an high output coil, this setup is a very nice upgrade and ups the spark output by a whole sh*t load








the wideband hooked up all the time acts as a normal 02 in most cars, it will lean out your mixture by so much (you tell it how much, and at what a/f ratio you want in certain zones) so that it maximises your economy. this doesnt make it control the whole map, when you get above a certain rpm (also user selected) it turns of and goes by what you have in your map.
its for tuning, datalog tuning, and keeping the economy at best while under normal driving conditions


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (VWralley)*

I think you lost me there. what is the point of using the stock ICM And the hyfire 6a at the same time? wouldnt it be one or the other?
I thought the whole point of getting megasquirt _and __Spark_ was to let the megasquirt ECU handle everything. now you are saying I should get another 130$ ignition system as well?
maybe I am overlooking something..


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

I am going to go sink my teeth into the ingition section of the megasuirt manual. be back in a couple days


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

no, im saying have the ecu setup to work with the vw icm, but instead of the ICM use a mallory ignition box. this will give you a huge increasse in spark power as well as a longer duration of spark also. you can simply run the vw ICM if you wish to cut cost








its not one on top of the other, its one in PLACE of the other


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (VWralley)*

ahh. I got it now








not much to the stock icm. 
how big is that 6a?


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## LT1M21Stingray (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (VWralley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWralley* »_no, im saying have the ecu setup to work with the vw icm, but instead of the ICM use a mallory ignition box. this will give you a huge increasse in spark power as well as a longer duration of spark also. you can simply run the vw ICM if you wish to cut cost








its not one on top of the other, its one in PLACE of the other









Good info. Thanks. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

i believe the 6a puts out about 50,000v to the coil







it'll burn just about anything you throw at it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (VWralley)*

well, I think I will explore that in "stage 2". right now I am working on stage 1. 
going to get and build the ecu, get all the sensors, fuel rail, TB, and stuff that I need for it and connect using the stock ICM. Ill use the dizzy until I can save up for the rest of the ignition conversion stuff. 
it would be nice if I had some money saved up for this already...


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*









why do I have such awful luck??
I ordered my jimstim and some other stuff from diyautotune on the 4th. and the parts left Georgia on the 7th. they traveled to Florida on the 9th, and today they are in California.
I live in Maine.
lets all track this package together, shall we?
https://www.endicia.com/Status...92274


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## TheTimob (Sep 13, 2003)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

What the hell?
I order from DIY all the time, sometimes it takes one day, sometimes two!

I wish I got to travel like that package is doing!


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (timbo2132)*

yeah well. Im dissapointed. and the thing is, I only ordered a couple things the first time because I wanted to get an idea of how reliable they were. this doesnt look too good for them.
but in reality, it looks like the post office is to blame..


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## twardnw (Sep 25, 2006)

definitely the USPS that screwed the pooch on this one. Longest I've had to wait for a package from DIY is 3 days
page ownage!


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## AspenelsRocco16v (Feb 5, 2007)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

simple mistake
ME obviously looks like CA


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (AspenelsRocco16v)*

true true..
OK, the good news is that the package arrived today, and let me tell ya, this jim stim looks awesome. if the actual megasquirt is half as cool as this, Im gonna be psyched.
I have been spending a lot of time reading and considering the installation. I think that I may reuse the stock coolant temp sensor instead of adding another one. I also read the megasquirt kit comes with the correct db7 connector to make your own wiring harness. and as convenient as the relay board might be, I may just use the exsisting relay panel and fuse block. 
I just ordered this stuff two minutes ago.








4 x Fuel Injector Pigtails - Bosch $26.00 
1 x MegaSquirt Wiring Bundle - 12' Long $40.00 
1 x MegaSquirt-II Programmable EFI System PCB3.0 - Kit w/ BLACK CASE $253.00 
1 x Lead Bending Tool (just because)
337$...


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

hey if you want a bolt in coolant temp solution there is a Saturn temp sensor that is an 1.8in NPT. you can get an adaptor that will thread right into the Thermo Time Switch hole and you wont have to re-configure the MS








the relay bored is a complete waste for money. i dont recomend using the factory fuse box at all except to get the power source for two/three bosch relays and to power the fuel pump.


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (VWralley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWralley* »_hey if you want a bolt in coolant temp solution there is a Saturn temp sensor that is an 1.8in NPT. you can get an adaptor that will thread right into the Thermo Time Switch hole and you wont have to re-configure the MS









you really think I should replace the coolant temp sender? I was thinking I wouldnt need to. that all I had to do was calibrate it with easytherm...

_Quote, originally posted by *VWralley* »_the relay bored is a complete waste for money. i dont recomend using the factory fuse box at all except to get the power source for two/three bosch relays and to power the fuel pump.









I am confused... you are saying dont use it cept for a few relays... but isnt that all thats in there?
keep the advice coming


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## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Just to add my







, if your engine is running fine now, there is no need to upgrade the coil or distributor or add a crank trigger wheel while installing MS since you're looking for a minimum bucks installation.
The MS internal coil driver (VB921) can drive a coil just as well as the Bosch ICM. Voltage and dwell time are the only two variables controlling the strength of the spark from a coil so the Bosch ICM has nothing over the VB921 and the wiring is simpler. If the spark is "dreadful at best" then that is a problem with the coil or the dwell settings, not the internal MS coil driver.
Both my nephew and I are running over 10 psi boost with stock coils and VB921 drivers so although an MSD setup might be nice it's far from manditory.
As far as the relay board everybody has their opinion. It's got all the relays and fuses you need so you don't need to cobble anything together or futz around with modifying the stock wiring. It also IMO makes wiring in the MS considerably easier.
The wideband needs a controller, Innovate LC-1 or the JAW unit are the cheapest, and since you have your carputer you can use Megatune to display the AFR and don't need a separate display.
Use your stock coolant temp sensor and Easytherm. As the name implies it's easy.


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## TheTimob (Sep 13, 2003)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (J. Daniel)*

I used to be a relay-board hater. But now I like it. Being able to re-run specific parts of the harness when I change something is nice, rather than having to rip everything out.


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_
you really think I should replace the coolant temp sender? I was thinking I wouldnt need to. that all I had to do was calibrate it with easytherm...
I am confused... you are saying dont use it cept for a few relays... but isnt that all thats in there?
keep the advice coming









just saying there is other options besides the bulky GM coolant temp sensor that plug right in to the head an work with no calibration on the MS. either way will work fine, just presenting you all the different options.
no im saying you can pull the switched power, 12v, and power the fuel pump by simply plugging the MS wires into the stock fuse box. an to not use the relay board because its only replacing two relays an three fuses. look at the diagram on the technotes site, it shows the use of the fuel pump relay spots to power an trigger the relays


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (VWralley)*

got it. that makes sense.

heres a couple pics of the Jim Stim


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## CodeMan (May 12, 2006)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Yum, Glenfiddich & EFI...


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (CodeMan)*

still waiting on a care package from Kenny_Blankenship. http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif last time he was on he said he had pneumonia,







so lets all cross our fingers and wish him well. 
then I can check the throttlebody and fuel rail off the list







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

megasquirt kit arrived today, I got the wiring harness too, and the bosch injector plugs. but for some reason they sent me the ones with the pigtails when I wanted the ones without. - Id rather crimp my own wires on them.








does anyone know if the coolant temp sensor usese the same exact plug as the bosch injectors?


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

megasquirt is built!
had a couple snags along the way. but nothing that I couldnt get around.
So. To help clarify for anyone who might read my thread in hopes to get some useful information about putting MS on a 16v, here are some of my notes.
Important:* the 16v engine uses a PWM fidle gizmo to control the idle.* the instructions for the megasquirt build on http://www.megamanual.com are a bit confusing when it comes to this option. I hope to clarify this.
you are probably going to use stock 1.8t or g60 (bosch) injectors in your 16v ms install. these are high impedance. there is a chart somewhere that lists all sorts of injectors by part number and lists there impedance. Knowing this information helps with the deccision you will make at step 69.
Megasquirt 2 (II) v3.0 PWM IAC howto:
Skip step #22
this step could have you installing a ton of parts that you would later have to remove if you don't read it carefully. 
_this step builds the circuit used to control a stepper IAC with a *Relay* and the stock IAC is PWM and cannot be operated this way._
the important thing here is that you are *not *using a STEPPER iac, but instead you are using a PWM iac. so skip this *whole *step and* go to step 23*. 
*When you get to step 62*
Step 62:
here you will be building the circuit for the PWM Idle Air Controller. the PWM IAC can not be operated by a relay, as the device opens and closes really fast and the relay wouldn't work. 
(relay number 2 (IAC) on the relay board will have to be bypassed) 
so to get around this, we use a high powered transistor in the MS ECU. you can buy the "mod kit" from diyautotune for 7$, or you can just go to radioshack and pick up the parts there. (Use the websites store locator and call ahead to make sure they have it in stock.)
you will need three things, but depending on the decision you make on step 69, you may have two of them already.
*TIP120 Darlington transistor*. Radioshack part number 276-2068. $1.59. you NEED this so get your shoes on.
*TO-220 Mounting Hardware* - this is the *mica insulator* peice. your kit has *two *of them, and if you are using high impedance injectors, you will have *two *left over, so consider this and maybe save yourself a couple bucks. Otherwise, radioshack has em for 1.99$ part number 276-1373
*1n4001 rectifier diode*. this is the same diode you will use often in your kit. and if you use high impedance injectors, you will have a couple of these leftover. if not, radioshack part number 276-1101 for 99 cents. 
Step 69:
flyback circuit for Low impedance injectors
if you are using high impedance injectors, like the stock g60 injectors that work so well with this setup, you will want to skip to step 70. do not do anything in step 69. this will leave you with a bunch of left over bits. (and save you 30 minutes and 2.98$) It will also leave room for you to install the TIP120 transistor in the place where Q9 would go. 
Thats all for now. Ill post more when I have more time.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

so...
does anyone know if MS can be configured for a 'target RPM' speed when the throttle is closed. - so that if you turn on your AC or your headlights and stuff the idle wont dive.... if should sense the RPMS are dropping and open the Idle Air Control valve...

Ive been exploring the megatune software and havent even scratched the surface of what can be done with it. the good news is the ECU is working perfectly.


----------



## vwsport16v1988 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

so seeing as you live so close, when i get mine all set, you can help out right lol


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (vwsport16v1988)*

you can count on it.


----------



## My Old Roc (Aug 14, 2003)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_so...
does anyone know if MS can be configured for a 'target RPM' speed when the throttle is closed. - so that if you turn on your AC or your headlights and stuff the idle wont dive.... if should sense the RPMS are dropping and open the Idle Air Control valve...


EXCELLENT IDEA!
I also would like to know if this is possible.


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_so...
does anyone know if MS can be configured for a 'target RPM' speed when the throttle is closed. 


Under "More Settings">"Idle Control" set "Algorithm" to "PWM"
Set "When to use PWM Idle" to "closed loop".
Press F1 for help on the setting the parameters.
After completing that screen don't for get to got to "More Settings">"Idle Control (closed loop settings)"
I've never used any of this **** so I'm only telling you where to go, not what values to enter.


----------



## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (J. Daniel)*

you will have to have something that can control the airflow to the motor to keep the rpm's up. there is an add on card that has 4 additional drivers, one of them is to be used to control a three wire idle valve. this differs from the two wire in the fact that it is not just for warm up, it can provide a constant idle correct.
with that setup, you would need to tune it in so that when your acc. kick on or whatever (power steering also drops the rpm) it could bump the idle up


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (VWralley)*

the answer to my question is here on the megamanual:
_Note that MegaSquirt-II version 1.000 code does not have feedback idle speed control and stabilization based on actual RPM, however. This may be incorporated into later developments of the code. The concern with a closed loop idle (or in decel) is the safety issue - we do not want any runaway or oscillating throttles. However you can tune your temperature vs. stepper position table for best warm-up driveability. After that, deviations from what you are used to would be an indication that something has changed in the motor - something clogged, bad gas, etc.; something you would want to know that rather than masking it. _


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

My bad! I was thinking MS1extra, not MS2.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (J. Daniel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *J. Daniel* »_My bad! I was thinking MS1extra, not MS2.









you know, I find it really hard to find the information I eed because so much relevant stuff is written about MS and Spark, or extra or whatever on the old cpu, "MS 1"
Im using the MS2 cpu so I can go boost and stuff some day.


----------



## mr lee (Jan 31, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

boost??? did someone say boost??
whacha got in mind?


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (mr lee)*

yeah, for stage3 - long term. probably not till after I put in a bigger motor.. I dont know..
I might just throw a little turbo on there for a little more oomf, but nothing gigantic. I havent decided. 
the good thing is that with Megasquirt, I can swap out the motor with out all the fuss of changing the ECU and wiring and stuff.
adding a turbo will be easy.


----------



## mr lee (Jan 31, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_yeah, for stage3 - long term. probably not till after I put in a bigger motor.. I dont know..
I might just throw a little turbo on there for a little more oomf, but nothing gigantic. I havent decided. 
the good thing is that with Megasquirt, I can swap out the motor with out all the fuss of changing the ECU and wiring and stuff.
*adding a turbo will be easy.*


you say that now


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (mr lee)*

looks like I wont be making any progress on the megasquirt his week. I broke the windshield in the rocco and all my cash will be going to that this paycheck. (and probably next)


----------



## LooseNut (Nov 27, 2001)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Hey Jonny, my garage is in Casco and plan on starting my G60 up on MS2 by May 1st. It would be good to bounce ideas back and forth with someone local. I've done a bit of research on megasquirt and am now at the point of wiring it together and setting the start up parameters. You're definitely welcome to come by this or some other weekend for a couple beers and some discussion. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (LooseNut)*

right on dude. I have some friends flying in this weekend from AZ so I wont be able to makje it out there this weekend, but maybe next. You must have an account on Mvws, right?


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (LooseNut)*

hey Loosenut, how far along are you with your MS install?
I just got a tracking number for some parts I bought a while back. they should be here on the 16th and then I can get back to work on this. I hope to order my wideband next wednesday (payday) and get that installed in my current setup temprarily to experiment with it a little bit.
there will be progress in this thread again very soon!


----------



## regrind (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

which wideband did you end up going with?


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (regrind)*

Im going with the LC-1 with g3 gauge. (the analog one with 14.7("stoich") at the top. 
http://www.diyautotune.com/cat....html








I like the look of the white faced one a little better, but the target stoich is over on the right. 








eventually I wont have the gauge in the car at all. but it will be patched into my carputer for logging.


----------



## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

its actually very handy to keep the gauge in the car for several reasons. 
my personal preference is to tune directly on the fuel/ignition maps, so having a gauge to look at that is not the one on the MS screen is critical.
another thing is if you get a patch of bad gas, or some issue pops up an the car starts to run super lean or rich, you can see it happen an source the issue before damage happens
the most practical would be while cruising, you will have some leaner spots (best economy) an you can actually tailor your driving to cruise in those spots to maximize your mpg's http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## regrind (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

I got an LC-1 as well.. it worked great.
I ran one of the low voltage outputs to an SDS mixture meter to save gauge space (already has all three full in my panel) since I had one sitting around.
it fits perfectly in the panel next to the instrument cluster.
crappy pic, right before my old camera imploded:








better pic of the meter from SDS's site:








I don't think they had the G3 yet when I got mine.. not a bad looking gauge.



_Modified by regrind at 5:43 PM 5-15-2008_


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

I have a schematic to build one of those. it wouldnt be any bigger than the led bar itself so I could hide it just about anywhere. 
So my parts came in yesterday... - the fuel rail and the tps throttle body. - Im hoping I can clean them up a bit. 
I have a question: what do most people use to clean up grungy metal parts? what kind of chemical can be used to strip all of the ugliness and leave the part with that "new metal" look?
on another side note:
thanks to Mainer0311, I have found the 2.0 block I want to use for my build. He's local, and will deliver! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
of course this will mean my o2 sensor has to wait a few more weeks.


----------



## rosecityromper (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

cool watched. hey this thing should be locked if there isnt one of these already


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (rosecityromper)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rosecityromper* »_cool watched. hey this thing should be locked if there isnt one of these already

what do you mean?

_Quote, originally posted by *regrind* »_I think he meant stickied, not locked.

Oh right.. that makes sense...



_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 10:31 PM 5-18-2008_


----------



## regrind (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

I think he meant stickied, not locked.


----------



## bmxvolks (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (regrind)*

Great right up! any updates?


----------



## punchbug (Jul 15, 2000)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_yup. been reading like crazy. lots of good info. lots of overwhelming info too. heh. my head hurts.
I think I am going to do this in stages. instead of shelling out all the extra money for the trigger wheel and VR sensor and coil, Ill just use the hall sensor on the stock dizzy. ultimately I want to get rid of the dizzy, but one thing at a time... 



If you are doing things in stages, get the wide band and install it now. That way you know what a "normal range" is for AFRs. Not that CIS-E will give optimal numbers, but you'll find it's pretty lean at cruise and that's not a big deal. Lean on demand is another story. And you can run the car on just the spark part of MSnS before you do the fuel changes. Be aware that if you do this, you will be "standing alone" by the side of the road if something goes wrong. Even experienced mechanics will walk away confused. But if you install it yourself, you should be able to figure out what the problem is. Not that there should be any, mine was VERY reliable for all of last summer once I got the initial bugs ironed out. Almost boringly so. And small steps is a good approach.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (punchbug)*

thanks for the tip punchbug. I was actually considering getting the wideband first, and almost clicked "puchase" too, but I ended up needing the money somewhere else that week.








I did manage to track down a 2.0 block for it finally, with all of the rest of the engine still attached. Im in the proccess or stripping it down right now. its a bit rusty tho... is rust bad for a block? shouldnt I just be able to strip it all off and give it a nice engine enamel spray and be good to go?

_Quote, originally posted by *punchbug* »_
If you are doing things in stages, get the wide band and install it now. That way you know what a "normal range" is for AFRs. Not that CIS-E will give optimal numbers, but you'll find it's pretty lean at cruise and that's not a big deal. Lean on demand is another story. And you can run the car on just the spark part of MSnS before you do the fuel changes. Be aware that if you do this, you will be "standing alone" by the side of the road if something goes wrong. Even experienced mechanics will walk away confused. But if you install it yourself, you should be able to figure out what the problem is. Not that there should be any, mine was VERY reliable for all of last summer once I got the initial bugs ironed out. Almost boringly so. And small steps is a good approach.


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Rust is fine on a block as long as its not rusty or pitted in the bores. Just wirebrush it off and paint.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (VW_NUT)*

yeah update on that, tyhe bores were all pretty badly rusted. they were siezed in there pretty bad. I was able to finally get them out tho. 
I pulled the crank out from the bottom, and then tapped the pistons down some, sprayed the walls with pblaster and ran a cylinder hone through it. 
then I was able to pull the pistons up through. I dont have a very good workspace tho, so working on the block is a pain. Im going to bring it to work and start the cleanup proccess there. I might have these bored out and throw some bigger pistons in there, but I dont know....
the cost for all this stuff just keeps getting bigger and bigger.








question: whats the best place to get pistons and rods and bearings for one of these things? 
are the connecting rods in a 1.8 the same as they are in a 2.0?



_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 12:41 PM 7-9-2008_


----------



## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

is it that tough to find a good 16v bottom end around there? i turn down free 1.8 blocks all the time..you should be able to find something a bit better...
no the 1.8 an 2L are different crank, rods an pistons


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Rods are the same.


----------



## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (VW_NUT)*

no they are not








different length, an i believe different wrist pin height (not sure on that one)
144mm to 157mm i think...
EDIT: from what im seeing most list the 9a an 1.8 rods as the same length, i may be thinkin of the ABA length (159)


_Modified by VWralley at 10:09 AM 7-9-2008_


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (VWralley)*

for some clarification:
according to a bildon, worldimpex and my very knowledgeable friend Tony, the rods do appear to be the same between the 16v KR/PL and the 9a. 
just so we dont spread any confusing or innacurate information, can anyone else confirm or deny the compatability between these parts?
looks like the 2l ABA uses the longer rods.
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...av=63


_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 1:38 PM 7-9-2008_


----------



## regrind (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

those two 16v rods should be the same.
the ABA ones are absolutely different.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (regrind)*

So I am finally getting around to building my 2L 16v motor, and I have some questions. 
First: head gasket.
whats the commonly preferred brand of headgasket? 
Im looking at getting a cometic brand head gasket from Bildon motorsports for 89$. any suggestions for a better place to get them?
it looks like Ill be able to buy bearings and all the gaskets today. I just want to get the best stuff y'know?
second: rings... where do they sell them for the stock 2.0 pistons?


----------



## TooClutchVW (Apr 9, 2004)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

the rods in a 9a/kr/pl are exactly the same. As for bearings you could get them from autohausaz.com for pretty cheap or GAP, just make sure you check your clearances before ordering. as for pistons or rings depending on what you do....








wiseco FTMFW, they come with rings. If not that then probably off autohaus or GAP also. ^^^ Thats an ABA headgasket from autohaus for like $20? maybe cheaper, if you want to go turbo people usually end up stacking those


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (eaturhonda)*

wow. what a clean engine!
did you get that bored out any? what kind of pistons are those?
what kind of finish is on the engine block? I want to do that.








I would really like to go all out with this motor, but money is really tight.








Im looking at getting most of the stuff from german autoparts. bearings, gaskets and rings, and just reusing my rods and pistons. it doesnt make any sense for me to get new pistons right now, since I plan on going turbo some day and would just want to get turbo pistons then.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (eaturhonda)*

one more thing: once I get the block all assembled, it might be a while before I can get it installed in the car. is there anything I can spray the cylinder walls with to prevent flash rust?


----------



## TheTimob (Sep 13, 2003)

*FV-QR*

You may think I'm stupid - but - WD-40 - the name stands for water displacement, formula 40. It prevents flash rust very well.


----------



## TooClutchVW (Apr 9, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (timbo2132)*

yup wiseco 83.5mm pistons 11:1 comp domed. For the block I used duplicolor high temp paint, theres one good to 1200 degrees and the other only to 500. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Also if you can crank the motor safely then you could get away with doing that once a week or so


_Modified by eaturhonda at 11:28 PM 7-16-2008_


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (eaturhonda)*

got the block all cleaned up today in the parts cleaner at work. I honed the cylinder walls a bit to get all the flash rust off. theres some really light pitting here and there, but I think I can hone some of that out without needing to upsize the pistons. 
I gotta run, but Ill post more later.


----------



## TheTimob (Sep 13, 2003)

*FV-QR*

One thing you might do is make an oil pump primer out of a drill. Take an old distributor shaft, and cut the distributor off of it. Put that in a big drill, and use it to drive the oil pump and provide some oil pressure to things. Pump it up, and turn it every week and it'll stay happy.


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

or what I did on the Dasher:
10-12" Quick Change extension from Ace Hardware
quick-change to 3/8" socket driver adapter
12mm socket
combine all three with a cordless drill-driver... superb oil pump primer


----------



## regrind (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: (Southcross)*

get 4000 of those little silica gel packets from sneaker boxes, load them in the cylinders.
DO NOT EAT THEM.
I know its tempting, just don't.


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (timbo2132)*


_Quote, originally posted by *timbo2132* »_You may think I'm stupid - but - WD-40 - the name stands for water displacement, formula 40. It prevents flash rust very well.
what the Timob said... coat your piston walls with it.

if you want LONG term storage, coat the piston walls with Cosmoline... just be prepared to spend a day with a rag and kerosene wiping it back off again


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Southcross)*

thanks fo the wd40 tip, and the oil priming tip too. this is a 16v, so I can prime it with a 22mm socket on the end of the intermediate shaft.
which by the way, was really funny shaped so I turned it down real nice on the lathe. I spent more time trying to locate a halfway decent bit than I did actually lathing the thing. 
anyway, I picked up a 5gal bucket of purple power parts cleaner. that stuff is intense! cost me 20$ at advanced auto parts. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I cleaned up the block, degreased and descaled it. then washed it with laquer thinner and sprayed it with a few coats of duplicolor 500 degree engine enamel. ionce its dry Im going to respray the cylinder walls with some more wd40 and call it a night. I got a ton of stuff coming from GermanAutoparts.com tomorrow and I have the day off from work, so Ill have this block built by the end of the day








after that, I have to wait two weeks for my next paycheck so I can buy all the stuff I need for the for the head.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

I just updated my original post to include the stuff Ive picked up recently, and I just realised that the only thing that is stopping me from finishing my megasquirt install is some hoses and fittings.... 
what the hell am I waiting for????


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_I just updated my original post to include the stuff Ive picked up recently, and I just realised that the only thing that is stopping me from finishing my megasquirt install is some hoses and fittings.... 
what the hell am I waiting for????
considering I spent nearly $300 in braided stainless lines and special fittings/adapters... I waited until the last possible moment to order them


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Southcross)*

thats true.. I would like to be able to get all my lines for about 100$. where did you get all your stuff?


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

ordered them through some douche-bag seller on eBay... took over 30 days to get _some_ of my parts... 6 weeks to get the last of them.

If I were to do it all over again... spend a little more and order them from pegasusautoracing.com a _REAL_ race shop. I would have had everything in hand in 7 days


----------



## regrind (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: (Southcross)*

racerpartswholesale does a good job on basic fittings and sells all their line by the foot instead of in packs.. plus they have like $8 flat rate shipping.
they sell both aeroquip and mocal stuff, so unless you need a wonky adapter fitting or something, they most likely have it.
for more specialized fittings, you can't beat summit.


----------



## Shislerocco (Jul 22, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (timbo2132)*


_Quote, originally posted by *timbo2132* »_One thing you might do is make an oil pump primer out of a drill. Take an old distributor shaft, and cut the distributor off of it. Put that in a big drill, and use it to drive the oil pump and provide some oil pressure to things. Pump it up, and turn it every week and it'll stay happy.

i think this works on an 8v but im not sure about a 16v. confirm?


----------



## regrind (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Shislerocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Shislerocco* »_i think this works on an 8v but im not sure about a 16v. confirm?

I know that the "8v oil pump priming tool" made by TT is essentially exactly what this is.
I would think they would make one for the 16v if it was possible.. I remember someone saying it wasn't back in the day, but I've never done any actual research to confirm this.
if I had to guess, I'd say no... but I have no factual data to back that up.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (regrind)*

update:
I found the screw in injector bungs on German Auto Parts for only 4.80 each. picked up those yesterday. I am slowly working out what hoses and fittings I need for the changeover. Im going to go with Jegs elite series fittings. black and red anodized and they come in all shapes and sizes. Ill be getting the aeromotive 1000-6 adjustable FPR with -6 AN fittings on it, all stainless braided lines and elite fittings. its gonna look sharp








here are the injector bungs(or as they are called on the site, fuel injector holders)
http://www.germanautoparts.com.../93/6








the fittings:
http://www.jegs.com/p/JEGS/830891/10002/-1/10019








EDIT: thanks to regrind for the tip, I will be getting one of these badboys here to assist with the braided hose installation:
http://www.jegs.com/i/KOUL+too...10019








and the FPR:
http://www.jegs.com/p/Aeromoti...10323











_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 2:55 PM 9-25-2008_


----------



## regrind (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

nice.. that should look sharp.
I went with mocal socketless black and titanium socketless on mine when I recently redid it.. I like it a LOT better than the red/blue aeroquip stuff I had before.. 








cant wait to see yours when you get it in there.. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (regrind)*

finally placed the order on some of the hoses and fittings. I didnt buy All the stuff I needed, but I did put a dent in it. I got all of the hose, and all the hose ends so I can get started on making those. I still need the FPR and a fuel filter with -6AN fittings on it which reminds me:
In another thread the conversation came up regarding those really small fuel billet filters like the "trick-flo", and countless others. I was asking whether those little fuel filters could do the same amount of work as the stock filter. I would think they would either not flow as much or not filter as well, but it was suggested that a stock filter is meant to be used for many years before replacing, while these little billet numbers can be opened up and cleaned regularly. that sounds good enough for me.








if anyone else has words on the subject, please share.








Anyway, progress is being made. I have a great big box of parts right now, and I am in the middle of building another MS ecu for fugazi885 so I can stay fresh on the proccess.








oh yeah, I cleaned up my engine bay a little...


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

so fugazi885 asked me to build his MS ecu, and this time I took meticulous notes during the proccess. Once I get around to transcribing them from paper to PC I will post them up. 
all of the options I selected and installed are what I beleive to be the perfect configuration for adding MS to a 16v while driving the stock coil directly from MS and including the stock PWM Idle Air Controller in the mix. the circuits have been built to support a VR wheel if one wants to be added, but its currently configred for the hall sensor in the dizzy. 
I'll explain more later.
does anyone have some good stock maps for a stock 2.0 16v (9a) ?


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

just got some packages in the mail today and boy am I psyched.
package from Jeggs, one from DIYAutoTune, and my stuff finally came back from the stitchers so I can finish redoing my interior. 








I was building a MS ecu for fugazi885 and he was short someparts, so we got those ordered and I finished his ecu tonight.








and in the Jegs box...
FREE PILLOWS!!!!
















Sooo Soft!








and a free hat to match! 








I am so happy!
















even my wife is happy!








getting on to the good stuff. the real meat and potatoes....
we have an assrtment of -6 AN fittings and some hose and stuff...








and... whatever could this be?








it says "For internal use" on the box....








whats inside?








is it some sort of spy glass?








here's a hint








stuff it in there all the way








Presto!








and now some of this:








success!

















thats all for now. more to come


----------



## tmechanic (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_
and... whatever could this be?








it says "For internal use" on the box....











Good News!!! It's a suppository.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (tmechanic)*

I wanted to update the thread with some info about my build. eventually I will edit this information into my original post so anyone searching for it wont have to read through 4 pages of crap to find out the specifics of it. anyway, here goes:
When I built my ecu, I made lots of decisions during the build for my application. 
I will be running a 16v 2.0 with megasquirt running the coils directly using the VB921 (or BIP373). 
I will be running the stock 16v 3 pin idle control valve(PWM IAC). 
I will be running stock vw g60 injectors (Bosch high impedance). 
I will be running my timing from the hall sensor in my distributor Initially. 
I will be eventually running one of those lupo/polo crank position sensors that are currently being covered in other threads, (so I installed the circuitry for both of those)
here are the customizations to the board and the corresponding steps in the megamanual v3 assembly guide where I made them.
Step 22 IAC Idle air controller 
circuits not installed for *stepper motor IAC* 
circuits installed for PWM (pulse width modulated bosh three pin IAC) instead.
_Also see step 59_
Step 50 Tach signal:
Hall sensor (dizzy) circuits and optical both installed. (Coil negative terminal NOT installed)
VR Circuit installed for future use if needed. (this would be for an 034 trigger wheel or lupo/polo crank position sensor.
Step 52 tach signal settings selected with jumpers. 
Step 59 D8 not installed to allow PWM Idle Valve.
If you actually decide to use a stepper, you will need to add the appropriate stuff for it.
Step 62 Q4 installed as a TIP120 to support PWM IAC
Step 65 High current flyback ignition driver installed to fire coil directly using the VB921 (or BIP373). 
Step 69 low impedance injector PWM flyback circuit not installed. (this is for low impedance injectors running pulse width modulation. I will be running high impedance injectors. (stock vw 1.8t)
Step 71 Current limiting circuit installed. - no feasible reason to not install this.
Step 74 Q20 not installed due to PWM IAC options
Step 75 Jumper installed in place of R39 (for PWM IAC)
that's all for now.


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Nice to see you making progress. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Do I remember reading some people were having trouble with 3 wire idle control valves? I seem to remember someone saying the 2 wire ones on the later cars were easier to run. I could be mistaken though.
Have you fitted the injectors to your fuel rail? The 1.8t ones are shorter right?


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (VW_NUT)*

I have both types of IAC's here so I suppose I shouldnt have specified 3 wires in my last post. 
altho, I think the problem people were having with the 3 wire ones is because they are a duty cycle PWM style and the two wire ones are an on-off fast idle. is that what you are talking about?


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

OK, so I sketched up the layout of the plumbing of my MS install, and I had a question....
why would the fuel line have to go all the way through the fuel rail? why wouldn't it be just as good to tee off somewhere and not have to have hoses coming out of both ends of the fuel rail?
the FPR I picked out has two inputs on it so it could theoretically be used as a t. see these pics below...
here's the typical MS install with the fuel line coming into and out of the rail.








here's the other layout, with the FPR being used as a tee. as far as prettying up the engine bay is concerned, the second method looks better in my opinion. the trouble there will be that I have already bought some of those parts, and would need to buy some other ones to make it work. 








any input on the subject?



_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 11:59 PM 10-6-2008_


----------



## TheTimob (Sep 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Wouldn't that not give the fuel rail a constant pressure?
Also, I think the side ports out "out" ports, not in.
I mean, in the first setup, if the injectors are just spraying the crap out of themselves, the pump can give them whatever it can, and the FPR down the line makes sure any extra is returned.
In the second setup, the FPR is before the rail, so it won't let any more than whatever you set it at to get past the FPR, so you could starve it of fuel. Right?








I really have no clue what I'm talking about though. Aeromotive's instructions are useless.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (TheTimob)*

I see what you are saying, and I suppose my drawing is confusing without knowing more about the FPR, but the two side ports on the FPR are directly connected. like you can see right through the thing. Thats why you need to put a plug in one of the holes if you arent using it. basically, the top/side ports are high pressure side, while the bottom port is the return. it shouldnt matter where you put the T, but I will sketch up another drawing to explain this better. 








keep in mind that some stock efi setups are like this. I have a fuel rail off a 8v digifant in a bucket somewhere that is like this. one inlet, and the only output is the injectors. 
I guess my real question is wether one would notice a performance gain using the 'flow through' method over the 'end of the line' method.


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

I don't see any performance difference between the two setups.
The only difference I can imagine is during initial startup when there might be air in the rail, it would take some time to purge that and some injectors wouldn't get fuel initially.
If there would be a potential hot start problem due to clearing vaporized fuel from the rail is unclear to me.


----------



## TheTimob (Sep 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (J. Daniel)*

Wouldn't keeping fuel pumping through the fuel rail keep the fuel cooler overall, rather than having it sit in there waiting to be injected?
Or do you want hot fuel? Would that be more efficient?
One other thing to consider: Every coupling is a point of possible failure, a system which reduces these points of failure is best.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (J. Daniel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *J. Daniel* »_
If there would be a potential hot start problem due to clearing vaporized fuel from the rail is unclear to me.

thats an interesting thought... the design of this system doesnt have a check valve to maintain pressure when the car is off, while the stock CIS system does. 
hmmm....


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

placed another order for parts from Jegs today. another 226$ worth. 
got the Aeromotive a1000-6 FPR for 140$, a fuel filter for 30$, fuel pressure gauge for about 18$, some other fittings I had left to buy, and a AN hose fitting installation "kit" with some lube and some sealant. it was only 8 bucks and I figure it cant hurt. 
I still have to get a couple of those 14mm inverted flair to -6an adapters, but I ran out of money..









it would be nice if they came in black, ya know?


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

so Ive revised my design a bit more. since the fuel filter is so small, Ive decided to just thread it right into the FPR and simplify my second design even more. provided that it fits that is...








I wont know if this is even possible until the parts all come in, but I felt like posting anyway.










_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 11:00 PM 10-9-2008_


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Do you think there would be a pressure drop on the later injectors? I don't know if there would be, I am just throwing that out there.
It just seems wierd that you don't see this set up on oems. The car companies could save a few pennies, buy using less fuel line. 
I can see you drivin with your jegs hat like some guy in a camero...










_Modified by VW_NUT at 10:27 AM 10-10-2008_


----------



## TheTimob (Sep 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Another possibility is installing the fuel filter in place of the stock accumulator underneath the rear of the car.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (VW_NUT)*

I did consider a potential pressure difference between the injectors, but then we are talking about an awful surplus of fuel flowing through the system at a fairly high pressure. anyone know what the throughput of the vw fuel pumps is? and what psi exactly?
this *is *the way the digifant fuel rail is configured. 
I have all the stuff I need to do it the other way if I have to. 

_Quote, originally posted by *VW_NUT* »_Do you think there would be a pressure drop on the later injectors? I don't know if there would be, I am just throwing that out there.
It just seems weird that you don't see this set up on oems. The car companies could save a few pennies, buy using less fuel line. 
I can see you drivin with your jegs hat like some guy in a camero...


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

found this interesting tidbit on autohauzaz

_Quote »_For example, certain VW models with Bosch Motronic require 55 to 61 psi (3.8 to 4.2 BAR) of static pressure measured with the engine off. By comparison, a VW may require 43 psi (3.0 BAR) on some models or 48 psi (3.3 BAR) on others. The differences may not seem like much, but a few pounds of fuel pressure can have a significant impact on engine performance and emissions.

http://www.autohausaz.com/vw-a....html


----------



## Iroczgirl (Feb 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Bosch tells me stock 1.8 16v is 73Psi and 33.81Gph.


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

If thats the way the factory does it you will be fine. Your stock bosch pump will supply plenty of fuel


----------



## Iroczgirl (Feb 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Iroczgirl)*

By comparison Bosch tell me Digifant is 44 psi and only 19.80 Gph...


----------



## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Iroczgirl)*

this diagram is the one you should use. this is how that pressure regulator is suppose to work. it will not work the other ways you have it drawn out.








the aeromotive is a "bypass" style regulator. not a flow through like you would use in your other diagrams. same with the stock digi regulators, the fuel goes in through the rail, an it regulates the pressure an bypasses the access back to the tank. there is no alternative way to set it up, you must do it like this for it to work as it's intended to 


_Modified by VWralley at 11:47 AM 10-10-2008_


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (VWralley)*

You might very well be right, but since this is a two inlet single outlet FPR, the two inlets have got to be directly connected together or else the FPR would need two seperate regulating valves to operate. 
I am quite certain this way will work, but then again I dont have the fpr in hand so I cant be 100% sure till then.


----------



## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

those are both "in" ports. its meant for a v8 type setup with two fuel rails.
here are the instructions for the regulator.
http://www.aeromotiveinc.com/pdf/13101.pdf


_Modified by VWralley at 11:17 PM 10-10-2008_


----------



## CraigYoung (Jun 25, 2005)

*Re: Megasquirt in my 16v. (JonnyPhenomenon)*

I have a buddy that started doing megasquirt to his 16v rabbit. I don't think he finished it because the ecu burnt up and he got fed up with it. I'm sure he has some knowledge about it though. He lives in the norway/south paris area


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (VWralley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWralley* »_those are both "in" ports. its meant for a v8 type setup with two fuel rails.
here are the instructions for the regulator.
http://www.aeromotiveinc.com/pdf/13101.pdf


the parts all came in today, and I am sticking with my theory. the two "in" fittings on the FPR are directly connected. you can see right through the thing. so logically it would be like putting a high flowing T between the filter and the FPR, with a lot less fittings. 
so this setup *should* be simple, yet effective. 
of course, I cant try it out because the stupid filter didnt come with any O rings. now I have to place yet another order or try to find some locally. anyone know if Napa carries Viton o-rings?


----------



## Iroczgirl (Feb 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_of course, I cant try it out because the stupid filter didnt come with any O rings. now I have to place yet another order or try to find some locally. anyone know if Napa carries Viton o-rings?

Napa sure does, also a good source for the fittings would be Portland Speed, Brian is the best and you should say 'hi' to him from me! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif He stocks a lot of those style fittings as they use them for stock car racing.
Then the ultimate source for fittings and o-rings would be Hydraulic Hose & Assemblies in Gorham. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Iroczgirl)*

thanks for the tip. Im gonna swing by napa with the fittings and one of the O-rings I did get to see if I can get a match. if not, then Ill consider these other sources. 
with the price of gas tho, it would make more sense for me to just get them online. 
edit: I just bought a set on ebay. $7.50 for ten shipped.  http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif now I dont even have to leave the house










_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 2:08 PM 10-13-2008_


----------



## Iroczgirl (Feb 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_
edit: I just bought a set on ebay. $7.50 for ten shipped. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif now I dont even have to leave the house








_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 2:08 PM 10-13-2008_

Hehe, that's awesome! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








What I always liked about Portland Speed is that he gets daily deliveries from companies like Jeg's and Summit Racing so there was never any shipping to be paid http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







I only lived 2 miles away







He's located on forest ave.


----------



## RalleyTuning (Oct 13, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

hey man, just saying, the design of the regulator is meant to be hooked up that way, and that is how they all work. 
why listen to the manufacturer anyways right?







you can save a bunch of time making the fuel lines an routing everything by doing it right the first time 
good luck










_Modified by RalleyTuning at 1:42 PM 10-13-2008_


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (RalleyTuning)*

ahh crap. I just realised I dont have a friggin air intake tube and filter. 
what are most people using for this setup?


----------



## RalleyTuning (Oct 13, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

go to your local auto shop, there is an aftermarket intake for a honda that fits perfect. that or get a 3" u-bend from jegs/summit an make one http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Figure out where you want it, get some pipe and visit portland speed for a filter. They will have the best price on k&n or other foam filter.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (VW_NUT)*

megasquirt installation begins TONIGHT!

I got almost everything I need. gonna get started on tearing everything apart in a few minutes. wish me luck!


----------



## Iroczgirl (Feb 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Good luck! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## punchbug (Jul 15, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

I'm not sure whether to wish you luck, skill or good prep! All of the above...and good luck again!







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## LT1M21Stingray (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_megasquirt installation begins TONIGHT!


Pic or it did not happen!


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (punchbug)*

well, I have decided to pretty much rewire the entire engine bay.
its been a long time coming, alot of the old wiring was not in the best shape. a lot of the 'harness tubing' was cracked and showing the wires within, and bunch of the wiring was brittle and cracked in places where it got heat and exposed to oils and the like. so I pulled most of the harness out tonight and I am going to work on cleaning it up some. this will also enable me to run the wiring where I want it to be, and hopefully allow me to hide some of it too. 
- of course I will need to respray my engine bay now that all that CIS crap is out of there...
here are some pics.








I pulled the fusebox... - I have to admit, this took balls. I actually had second thoughts about wether that would be a tragedy or not. but then I thought "I can solve a 12 sided rubiks cube, I think I can handle _this_. besides, I got the bentley.
















some wiring I removed. (between the fusebox and the ecu. 








my injectors were a nightmare to get out. I dont have the proper tool, and the o rings were totally rock hard and would NOT come out. I ended up unscrewing all the injector lines from the injectors with the injectors still in the head, and then figuring out some way to get them out after. (using a hammer)
































thats all for now. Im falling asleep in my chair.


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Wow, you are getting right into it... You may have better luck removing the lower manifold to get the injectors out. I've had the metal ends get stuck and fall off. Luckily that cyl was closed, so I didn't have to pick it out of the cylinder.


----------



## Iroczgirl (Feb 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_
I pulled the fusebox... - I have to admit, this took balls. I actually had second thoughts about wether that would be a tragedy or not. but then I thought "I can solve a 12 sided rubiks cube, I think I can handle _this_. besides, I got the bentley.










Pulling the fusebox is the easy part...getting it all back together after you decide which circuits to eliminate will be the task! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Shislerocco (Jul 22, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Iroczgirl)*

i BF screwdriver works to pry them out if you dont have the tool.


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (Shislerocco)*

I'm a big fan of installing MS incrementally.
IMO better to make sure you're getting a tach input signal while the engine is running on the original fuel and ignition, then have MS drive a separate coil and set ignition timing while it's doing that, then convert ignition to MS while CIS is controlling fuel.
Then the ignition is done and you can go back to the original ignition if you're having insurmountable problems.
Then getting the car started is only getting the fuel in the ballpark, hard enough by itself, and not having to juggle ignition timing and troubleshoot potential problems.








If My Old Roc had done it this way, his car wouldn't have been parked for 4 months trying to work out the problems. Not singling you out Andy, just trying to make a point.


----------



## TheTimob (Sep 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (J. Daniel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *J. Daniel* »_I'm a big fan of installing MS incrementally.


I sort of did this too - I installed Megasquirt on Fuel-only settings - I didn't even remove the CIS, just set the stuff aside, and connected the fuel lines to the Digifant rail. It started the first try. It ran, it idled. It even revved. I drove it around the block - it worked fine.
Then I drove it to Baltimore!


----------



## Iroczgirl (Feb 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (TheTimob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TheTimob* »_
Then I drove it to Baltimore!









...and you never stopped







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## ShawnO (May 29, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_well, I have decided to pretty much rewire the entire engine bay.
its been a long time coming, alot of the old wiring was not in the best shape. a lot of the 'harness tubing' was cracked and showing the wires within, and bunch of the wiring was brittle and cracked in places where it got heat and exposed to oils and the like. so I pulled most of the harness out tonight and I am going to work on cleaning it up some. this will also enable me to run the wiring where I want it to be, and hopefully allow me to hide some of it too. 
- of course I will need to respray my engine bay now that all that CIS crap is out of there...
here are some pics.








I pulled the fusebox... - I have to admit, this took balls. I actually had second thoughts about wether that would be a tragedy or not. but then I thought "I can solve a 12 sided rubiks cube, I think I can handle _this_. besides, I got the bentley.

























I just finished putting mine back together stock and it has been a great challenge. Label - label - and label again. If I had to go back and do over I would have bought one of those nifty digital label makers they have at office depat and labeled every stinking wire. It may seem like work now but when it goes back together you'll be so thankful. My harness looked as bad as yours - 25 different splices due to alarms systems, engine swap, stereos, and gauges. 
I plugged mine in and the wipers are crazy - no dash lights - etc....
Good luck! I can;t wait to see how it turns out.


----------



## punchbug (Jul 15, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (J. Daniel)*



J. Daniel said:


> I'm a big fan of installing MS incrementally.
> IMO better to make sure you're getting a tach input signal while the engine is running on the original fuel and ignition, then have MS drive a separate coil and set ignition timing while it's doing that, then convert ignition to MS while CIS is controlling fuel.
> Then the ignition is done and you can go back to the original ignition if you're having insurmountable problems.
> Then getting the car started is only getting the fuel in the ballpark, hard enough by itself, and not having to juggle ignition timing and troubleshoot potential problems.
> ...


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (punchbug)*

thanks for all the good advice. sorry I didnt follow any of it.








I'm just going to clean up the engine bay, make a new wiring harness and hook it all up. I'll make it go. you watch


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

did any of you guys hook MS up on a 16v before? 
any idea how to interface the knock box with MS?


----------



## Rannoch (Mar 19, 2008)

Oh I'm watching...


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_ I'll make it go. you watch










Oh, I don't doubt that.








Just proposing a different approach for some who may be reading this thread.


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_any idea how to interface the knock box with MS?

I suspect it can be done. Hall sensor input to MS, MS output to knock box.
The problem is the knock box has its own advance map and the engine's actual advance would be a combination of the MS map and the knock box map.
For an NA application you could simply have a flat map in MS and let the knock box do it's thing, but what's the point of putting MS in the ignition system then?
For forced induction you'd have to artificially advance the hall sensor so you could have, effectively, a negative advance map in MS to attain some retard under boost.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (J. Daniel)*

interesting... I had read somewhere that someone was making a knock senser control box to interface with MS, but I was thinking it might be done with the stock box.


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Is this what you were thinking of? 
http://www.viatrack.ca/


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (VW_NUT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VW_NUT* »_Is this what you were thinking of? 
http://www.viatrack.ca/


thanks Tony, thats exactly what I was looking for.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (VW_NUT)*

placed an oder for a bunch of wiring supplies to build the new harness. lots of various sized heat shrink, plus an assortment of connectors. I am trying to track down a good source for all of the various connectors used, like for the injectors, and all the other plugs just like them. I may just clean up the ones I have, but since I am rewiring everything, Ill need to get all new pins for them. 
so basically Im looking for new pins....


----------



## twardnw (Sep 25, 2006)

*FV-QR*

If you find the pins that go in the fuse-block connectors, definitely let us know, I'm trying to clean up all of my wiring right now, need to replace a couple of pins and would like to replace some of the circuits I am not using with stuff I need.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (twardnw)*

hmm... I wasnt planning on tapping into the fusebox much, if any at all. finding the proper pins for a plug is a pain in the ass.








first you have to find out who makes the connector, and what model it is. then you can start looking for pins for it. 
so since its hard to find out who makes the connector, and even harder to find the specific model, trying figure out what pins to get for it is tough.
I do think Ive nailed down the pins for the injector connectors, and those are the same pins used in a lot of places under the hood. I'll post more about that as soon as they arrive and I make sure they are correct.








just got a package in the mail today from McMaster.com. about 9 miles of assorted heat shrink tubing and a metric "butload" of butt splice connectors. I wont use nearly that many, but it will be nice to have when I need it.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

this is a bit off topic, but does anyone know the part number on a manual adjusting clutch table that will be shorter than the one I have here?








this ones way too long, and the auto adjusters got a ton of strain on it thanks to the improper length.


----------



## twardnw (Sep 25, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_I do think Ive nailed down the pins for the injector connectors, and those are the same pins used in a lot of places under the hood. I'll post more about that as soon as they arrive and I make sure they are correct.









you mean injector pins like these?








http://www.jimruffi.com/shopping/shoppage2.htm


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (twardnw)*

BINGO!


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

so after doing some digging, I figured some things out.
these connectors are made by Tyco Electronics. they are called "Junior Timer Housings (with locking spring and seal)".








these are 1.09 at mouser.com, and the pins themselves are about 22 cents each. 
the tyco part numbers for the various items and colors are as follows:
for the two position(pins) plugs, 
827551-1 = white
827551-2 = grey
827551-3 = black (it appears that mouser only carries these in black)
827551-4 = brown
827551-5 = blue
827551-6 = green
827551-8 = yellow
the three position ones are only 2$ each from here (mouser doesn't seem to carry these)
828748-1 = white http://www.onlinecomponents.co...748-1/
828748-3 = black http://www.onlinecomponents.com/product/2416608/
the pins








http://www.mouser.com/Search/P...3d%3d
there are some variations of these plugs, but if you just stick to what I have listed here, you will be good to go.


----------



## PeterLine (Oct 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

just so ya know, 034 motorsports sells new bosch connectors and pins, and sells a cheaper variation of the injector plugs, also with pins. and their prices are very good








just in case you need any other connectors http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (PeterLine)*

thanks for the tip Peterline. they have a decent selection of connectors, its too bad they dont have any of the stock rocco connectors tho. 
so with the thought of this crazy wiring nightmare looming over me, I caved and bought the MegaSquirt relay board kit from DIYAutotune.com
I was planning on wiring it all into my fusebox, but as I contemplated my strategy for installing all this stuff, I determined it would be easiest if I could do it in stages. 
I also placed an order for a bunch of connectors and pins from mouser.com. dont know if I mentioned that already... 
progress is being made... just realy really slowly.


----------



## mxman (Jul 31, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

take a lug connector (spade style or through hole) run it throuhg hte firewall.. or to the relay FP connector... (you basically want to take the power from the FP connector on the relay board and send it in through the lug that power would cross the relay with... say it goes from plug 30 to plug 87 when the relay is on, you plug this lug connector from the FP connector on the relay board to the 87 terminal in your car...)
then run a wire from fuelpump power on wire that activiate the fuel pump wire to get power key on and cranking...to turn on the relay board, ground the relay board to the head and the battery... done
5v to the TPS 5v or 12v to the hall sensor (w/ 12v you'll need a pullup resistor of 1000 ohms, i'd put it between s12 and your optoin circuit inside the box.) 
with the relay board if you have it grounded to the head it will be like grounding all your sensors to the head... as spec'd 
i recommend running a seperate shielded wire with say 3 leads and a shield to your hall sensor (power 12 or 5v, ground, and signal (center pin) and combine hall ground pin and shield of the new 3 lead harness at the distributor hold down bolt... this will cut down on noise, 
Also instead of the jumper from xg1-xg2 i'd run the opto isolator ground out to the dizzy bolt mentioned above... this will help quite a bit for driveability and timing errors..jitter made my car run like crap.
make sure you get the tps wiring right hte first time or you're going to blow the wiring out inside of it and it won't read anything... 
The coolant temp sensor .... i used the chevy sensor... i mounted with one of those side of head coolant necks with one sensor outlet and shaved a bit of material off of the head... took a coolant neck plug from a digi2 car tapped it for 3/8ths NPT and rtv'd it in there. I've not had a leak since day one... IAT , i just went to the wrecker and bought a chevy intake tube IAT that doesnt have threads and popped it into the stock boot setup near the tbody...
don't dick around with VW coolant and temp sensors they're junk and you have to put the numbers in easy therm to calibrate them all of the time.. 
hopefully this helps










_Modified by mxman at 5:59 PM 10-30-2008_


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (mxman)*

thanks for the advice! lots of great tips here.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

UPDATE:
its been a long time since I have worked on the rocco. its been a pretty cold winter, and I havent had the motovation to get out there and freeze my self to death ripping apart a car. 
but I finally got some kerosene for my turbo heater, and managed to get my garage door chippedf out of the ice it was frozen into so I could get some work done today. I had a friend help me get today, an we got the car up on jack stands and proceded to make serious progress.
first I drained the fluids, pulled the radiator and all the AC bits, althernator, power steering pump, transmssion, and all sorts of hoses, wiring, and so on. 
then we pulled out the trans, which I had to use a dremel to hack the head off a bolt that had a nice rounded head on it.








after the bolt was cut off, the trans popped right out without any fight. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Next thing to go was the motor, that also came out without any fuss. it helped that I spenty extqa time moving all the parts that would get in the way of it on the way out. 
since I dont have an engine hoist, I had to drop the motor down and slide it out under the front cross member. 
now that the motor is out, I can start swapping over parts to the new block. 
here are a few pics:


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Mtl-Marc)*

Question: I just got the stock injector "cups" out of the head, and under each of these is a little tube that sits down in the head. three of them broke off and left the tube in the hole. only ONE of them actually came out with the injector bung. 
my question is wether I should get new ones or if I should remove them, since the new injectors dont work the same way as the old ones...
does anyone have any experience with this?
these are the rubes I speak of. along with the part number, and a link to them on worldimpex.
035-133-554 








http://www.worldimpex.com/part....html


----------



## BoiseMK1GTI (Jan 28, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

No, you don't want those. For megasquirt, you will use the G60 injector cups.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (BoiseMK1GTI)*

thanks for the prompt reply. I just did some digging and had come to that conclusion as well. 
I got the g60 injector cups from GAP a while back so I am set. I have tomorrow off but I am heading up to my parents house for the day. My father is working on a 58 vette and I hope to help out a little










_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 5:36 PM 2-16-2009_


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*



JonnyPhenomenon
[IMG said:


> http://www.angrymods.com/projects/scirocco/engine/motors_out.jpg[/IMG]


I don't see Jonny standing in the engine bay?
How could you have missed that picture?


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Nice to see some progress!! Cold weather sucks...


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (VW_NUT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VW_NUT* »_Nice to see some progress!! Cold weather sucks...









yeah, no kidding. I spent the day at my folks house yesterday in my dads heated shop. I would KILL for a shop like that. (so you all better watch out.)








I was helping him prep a 1958 corvette for paint. of course, he only let me sand the door jams so if I screwed up I wouldnt hurt anything. *laugh*
hes like Mr Miagi; he gives me a really crappy job to do, then he sprays over it and makes me do it again and again. Who would have thought that this endless back and forth motion would be good for something other than self gratification?








edit for page pic:











_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 9:43 AM 2-17-2009_


----------



## crazyaboutrocs (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_
I have tomorrow off but I am heading up to my parents house for the day. My father is working on a 58 vette and I hope to help out a little








_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 5:36 PM 2-16-2009_

Is the vette his or one he is doing for someone else? Just curious because a friend(no longer with us) was restoring one and his sister sold it and his shop equip. after he died. And seeing as how you are in Maine too.....I thought it might be the same vetter(not many of them around).


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (crazyaboutrocs)*

sorry to hear about your friend. this isn't the same vette. I beleive the car came from out west, belongs to someone down in the turner area.


----------



## crazyaboutrocs (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Hmmm, How long have they had it? He returned from living in Ca, about 5 years or so ago and has been dead about 1 1/2ish. I was mostly wondering because if it was the same car, I wanted to see some pics when it was done.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (crazyaboutrocs)*

we can pretend its the same car if you like.








back on topic tho, I just ordered another 200$ from GermanAutoparts.com. I hope they appreciate my business!








I ordered a new head gasket set, new motor mounts, new clutch cable, some assorted nuts and bolts, and I ordered a Ton of new hose clamps. 
did you guys know that VW stock hose clamps are color coded? its true!
I measured the stock spring type hose clamps when they were fully constricted with no hose in them, and these are the sizes of each. (in mm) and the quantity I would need of each to replace all my stock clamps.
12x blue 22mm 
2x green 26mm
4x brown 30mm
5x white 36mm
Germanautoparts.com has a large selection of hose clamps sized from 8mm to 75mm. I used tne 22-32mm size for the blues, the 26-38mm for both the greens and the browns, and the 32-44mm size for the whites. I got a couple smaller ones for coolant return hoses and the like as well. that should replace all those annoying spring clip jobbies with nice looking matching screw type clamps. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

does anyone know what speedometer cable is compatable with the rocco if I want to delete the ox2 mileage counter? I want to get rid of that ugly useless box.
gap doesnt li9st anything for the rocco, but the one they list for the Golf looks like it would work. I just dont want anything too long, or two short..ya know?


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Does speedometer cable screw on, or pop on? I'd probably try a golf II one as the clusters were interchangeable & they should be easy enough to find.
The reason the factory has those springy hose clamps is they expand as they hose and pipe heat up. They won't cut into or put excess pressure into the radiator hose. 
They are a PITA to replace though and the GAP ones will work fine.



_Modified by VW_NUT at 5:35 PM 2-23-2009_


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (VW_NUT)*

that is pure genious!
too bad they suck so bad, and are ugly..
you wouldnt happen to have any old CV axles laying around would you?


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Sorry no rocco ones....
The clamps aren't bad if you have the right too to compress them. I don't think they are ugly, but then again I never really spent any time looking at them..








I just looked at the speedo cable pic on GAP and it *should* work for you. Don't quote me on that as I am not positive..




_Modified by VW_NUT at 6:25 PM 2-23-2009_


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (VW_NUT)*

they dont have to be rocco specific. mk2 golf and jetta ones work. all I need is the outer jacket and stub axle.


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Crap! I just threw one out cause the inner was messed up..


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (VW_NUT)*

BOOooO! that sucks.








I threw out a pile of them this summer because they were taking up space. 
the metal scavengers stached them up like they were 20$ bills.. 
went up to my dads place today to use his sand blasting cabinet. blasted my valve cover and intake manifold, and another intake manifold with a passenger side intake port. I cant decide which side Ill put the intake... there is a lot more room in front of the strut tower on the passenger side, but there is barely any room between the strut tower and the timing belt. I dont want it to rub on anything. 
on the other hand, if I keep it on the drivers side, then it will block access to all the stuff over there. which is one of the things I hate about the stock arrangement...


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Either way will be fine. You will be able to remove the intake piping in 15 seconds. 

I don't remember how much room there is between the strut tower and the intake on the passenger side on a rocco. I might lean on going to that side because you have good access to fresh air from the front & 50mm intake manifolds for golfs are much cheaper....


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (VW_NUT)*

anyone know where I can get some good engine dressup stuff? billet and or chrome stuff. 

that jcaps site has some stuff, but nothing really for sciroccos..


----------



## TheTimob (Sep 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

I think a 710 cap








Every item on this site:
http://kalecoauto.com/index.ph...id=19


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (TheTimob)*

thats a start


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

I just spent 240$ on a coolant expansion tank and a power steering reservoir. 
I would have liked to have waited till I had some other important stuff purchased, but I will need these in hand when we shave the engine bay since Ill need to make mounting points for them before we paint.
























240 might seem expensive for two alluminum tanks, but I assure you it could have been a lot worse.. I was looking for a replacement for the stock bottle that I would rub some polish on to brighten up the engine bay. but nothing that would look too out of place like alot of the street rod stuff that is out there. 
still, I dont know why this stuff is so expensive....


----------



## crazyaboutrocs (Nov 23, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_sorry to hear about your friend. this isn't the same vette. I beleive the car came from out west, belongs to someone down in the turner area. 

Turns out the guy that bought his is in Sabatus. So that's not it. Odd though, so few of them out there...


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (crazyaboutrocs)*

So I placed an order for ARP head studs(undercut) last night from MJMAutoHaus.com. best price I have seen anywhere at only 109 shipped. it would be really nice if arp hardware didnt cost quite so much, but what can you do, right?








props to MJM for the lowest price:

I hope they send me some stickers.









Next things to buy, the battery relocation kit from Summit Racing(~170$):

then I need to get a Bahn Brenner fuel rail..








the list goes on and on and on.......


----------



## twinscrewcaddy (Mar 27, 2008)

keep at it man. watching thread now!


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (twinscrewcaddy)*

thanks. I have been working on the body in another thread (see signature) getting it all repainted and ready for the pretty new motor going in. I got my head studs in drop shipped right from ARM (no mjm stickers tho, which is too bad for them.







)
I have about 350$ of stuff that I KNOW I need to buy before this will be finished, and I dont have that much right now.








getting this finished in time for dustoff is going to be a real challenge.
anyway, its all repainted and the car was dropped off this morning at home, so the rebuild process begins *now*. 
heres some color:


----------



## twardnw (Sep 25, 2006)

*FV-QR*

what's the reason behind the squared-off strut tower?
edit: n/m, found the answer in your other thread


_Modified by twardnw at 2:10 PM 3-31-2009_


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (twardnw)*

Okay! I have been working on the stupid car constantly over the past 3+ weeks. I even took this entire week off of work to try and finish it up in time to make it to dust off down in Mass. I have made Some progress....
actually, I have made a lot of progress. the motor is all installed, and almost all wired up for testing Megasquirt. using the relay board definitely has its advantages here, where I can hook it all up and get it working, and then install it in the car and rRE-wire it, making my wiring nice and tidy and well hidden.
things left to do:
make the relay board to MS cable
make a battery hold down thing for my rear mounted battery.
Battery terminals..
find one more hose that goes between the rad and the engine. I swear I had it just yesterday...
add fluids, oil, power steering, brake fluids... 
bleed the brake lines.








get the motor to run...
this is going to be a crazy next two days... If I were taking bets, I would say I wont be ready for ust off. at this point I am trying to decide what things will just have to be ignored... for instance, I want to relocate my heater control valve to be inside the cabin, so I dont have an ugly valve and cable running through the bay, but that will have to wait. in the mean time I will need to get out of the car and pop the hood to turn the heat on.







but I can fix that Next week. 
I found out that the back of the fuse box has a letter next to each of the plugs, and each pin in each plug receptacle is clearly numbered in a very specific order. when you compare it to the wiring diagrams in the bentley, it makes it easy to find any pin you want 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## punchbug (Jul 15, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (VW_NUT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VW_NUT* »_Does speedometer cable screw on, or pop on? I'd probably try a golf II one as the clusters were interchangeable & they should be easy enough to find.
The reason the factory has those springy hose clamps is they expand as they hose and pipe heat up. They won't cut into or put excess pressure into the radiator hose. 
They are a PITA to replace though and the GAP ones will work fine.

_Modified by VW_NUT at 5:35 PM 2-23-2009_

I'd check length; on MkIs the Rabbit cable will fit but ends up breaking because it is just too short. It will barely go on, and live a short life.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (punchbug)*

OK. hitting a bit of a wall here. I am getting a tach signal from the hall thanks to a pull up resistor, but my fuel pump doesnt seem to want to start off the relay. I can jumper it tho, but then it runs non stop.

when is the fuel pump relay supposed to fire?


----------



## twardnw (Sep 25, 2006)

*FV-QR*

how do you have it wired in right now?


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (twardnw)*

just hooked a timing light up to it and it seems I am not getting spark.


----------



## alteschule (May 30, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

I know nothing about mega -squirt. The fuel pump shouldnt trigger on until an ignition signal is received,normally.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (alteschule)*

OK. progress. my power lead to the coil came unplugged so it wasnt getting juice. now I am getting spark, but it is irregular. I have my dwell set to 3.1, and I beleive I am supposed to increase it if I am getting misfires...
got a sputter out of it once. not sure if that was just a fluke or what. but yeah, my exhaust manifold is leaking..


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

got it running. the ignition needed to be set to trigger on falling edge instead of rising edge. got lucky that that was pretty much the first thing I tried.
now it is struggling to idle. if I turn the dizzy just right it will stay running under its own power, and I have the throttle opened up just a tiny bit. 
I have a problem with my fuel pump tho. the relay board isnt telling it to run. I have to jumper across the relay socket to get the pump to run, and then it runs all the time.
http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
did I miss a setting somewhere that tells the MS to tell the relay board to pump the fuel?


----------



## TheTimob (Sep 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Check the mica insulators under the transistors - they might be shifted - test that there's no continuity between the transistor and the heatsink bar on the ones with mica insulators.


----------



## twardnw (Sep 25, 2006)

*FV-QR*

check the output of the relay board with a test light, on the fuel pump output.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (twardnw)*

I hooked my Jimstim up to my ms ecu and played with it for a bit. my fuel pump LED is not lighting up. I checked my insulated transistor and it has no continuity.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

ahh crap. I stayed up till 5am working on it. just doing the wiring harness.








at least when I get up tomorrow I should be able to start it from inside the car. heh.

anyone know why the fuel pump isnt coming on when MS is running?
I wish there was a way to tell MS to do a fuel pump test...


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

well, I got it running. I still cant get the fuel pump to work so I have installed a manual switch. not the best way to do it, I know but...
I cant find any advice on how to fix this. I dont believe I fried it, and all my soldering work is good. I cant seem to figure out what parts of the board operate the fuel pump.
does anyone have some advice on the subject?


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

V3 board schematics can be found here:
http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/pcb.htm
OWNAGE! For whatever that's worth.










_Modified by J. Daniel at 11:14 AM 4-26-2009_


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (J. Daniel)*

Running the board on the stim, I'm getting ~5V on the bottom end of R16, .75V on the top.
Output voltage to the stim FP connection is only 20mV.
Make sure d4 is oriented with the band towards the heatsink side of the board.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (J. Daniel)*

thanks for the tip! now that you linked me to it, I seem to have a vague recollection of seeing it some where.
I hooked up a meter to test the fuel pump circuit, and everything checked out OK. then I hooked the unit up to my other PC and uploaded the older software, and wouldnt you know it, the fuel pump LED lit right up!
I think the 2.88 software I was running on it is messed up. Im going to try to start from scratch with the 2.6 software and see where that gets me. I did find some specs on the injectors I am using tho. the trick was to search for "bosch injector flow rates" on google.
here is a couple of the sites I found:
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm
http://www.usrallyteam.com/con....html
http://www.turbo-conversion.co...ts/65
Note: the part number on these injectors was 0280156061 on one side and 06A9060318 on the other. the 06A-906-031-8A is the vw part number and 0-280-156-061 is the bosch PN. 
so basically, these look like they will spray 316-321 cc's a minute at 3 bar. (43.5 psi). that is ~30.15 lbs/hr.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (J. Daniel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *J. Daniel* »_Running the board on the stim, I'm getting ~5V on the bottom end of R16, .75V on the top.
Output voltage to the stim FP connection is only 20mV.
Make sure d4 is oriented with the band towards the heatsink side of the board.

that was what I was reading too with the 2.6 software. I dont know why I felt compelled to go with the latest software..


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

this might seem like a no brainer, but what "air fuel ratio" should I put in the required fuel calculator afr box in megatune? 14.7?


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

OK. I have no idea what is going on. I am on zero sleep and have a ton of distraction,s but it looks like my ecu is STILL using 2.88 code, and not 2.6 like I thought. I cant remember how to reflash it with older code, and my wife is pissed because I havent spent any time with her - at all - in the past two months. 
I have to take a break from all this to save my marriage. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Yeah, 14.7 in the Req-fuel calculator.
Make sure you open the "configurator" and activate the code version flashed onto your chip.
Megatune will then know what version to talk with your chip.
Take care of your wife! It's just a friggen car. A damn nice car







but still.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (J. Daniel)*

OK... now another question. can you increase the ammount of time that the ecu primes the pump when you turn the key to ON?


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Under "tables">"priming pulse"


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

coolant temp sensor...
trying to generate a sensor table for the stock 2 pin coolant sensor. I am using the chart from 5-43 in the bentley, but it doesnt say what the bias resistor value is... anyone know what to put here? I left it zero and it didnt complain. I am on the stim right now trying to configure as much as I can.
*EDIT: I figured out what the bias resistor is. its a resistor on the MS ecu. the default is 2.49k and it can be replaced with a different one for the different values of the sensor you are using. I will post more about it when I have time. *
on the left, the default values for the GM sensor. on the right, the 3 point calibration following the Bentley (5-48), with a 0 value bias resistor. *This needs to be 2490 since that is the value of the resistors r4 and r7 on the board. * it looks liek I could change these to 2.2k resistors and then I wont have to muck about with recalibrating.. 








and here is the sensor chart/graph from another - perfectly legal -source....



















_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 9:48 PM 5-4-2009_


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (J. Daniel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *J. Daniel* »_Under "tables">"priming pulse"

thats odd.. that option is grayed out for me.

Oh. I see why. 


_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 8:03 PM 4-26-2009_


----------



## twardnw (Sep 25, 2006)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_OK... now another question. can you increase the ammount of time that the ecu primes the pump when you turn the key to ON?


the pump will run for 2 seconds, unless it sees RPM, then it is on continuous.

_Quote, originally posted by *J. Daniel* »_Under "tables">"priming pulse"


that only changes the amount of time that the injectors open when MS is switched on, not the actual pump run time.


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (twardnw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *twardnw* »_that only changes the amount of time that the injectors open when MS is switched on, not the actual pump run time.

Yep, my mistake.
As far as I know the pump run time is not adjustable.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (J. Daniel)*

okay. no biggie, now that it is actually priming properly, it seems to be able to get my FPR up to the 3bat I have it set to in the two seconds it pumps.

now I am on to bigger and much more annoying problems.
I am trying to follow a hundred different instructional pages and I am having trouble making sense of it. I may actually have found a bug in megatune to be honest. but when I try to build maps using the built in tools, I get really weird things happening. 
its hard to explain, and I am really beat, but Ill at least say this for example: all my timings are way off. like for some reason it decided it wanted to sputter and blow fuel vapor out my intake.
I looked at the timings table and the figures were up in the hundreds. as far as I know, when idling, isnt the 16v motor supposed to be at 6 degrees before top dead center?
I dont even know what a good map is supposed to look like.
does aanyone have any maps they could send me to compare mine to?


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Jon check here,
http://www.spitfireefi.com/downloads.shtm
I can stop by after work today if you are going to be around..


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (VW_NUT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VW_NUT* »_Jon check here,
http://www.spitfireefi.com/downloads.shtml
I can stop by after work today if you are going to be around..

thanks for the tip. that worked. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Car sounds good when it has fuel in it







......


----------



## d-bot (Sep 6, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (VW_NUT)*

bay pictures?


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (d-bot)*

the bay looks like crap right now. Im using an old gti intake tube and an intake filter I found on the side of the road. no joke. it looks like it sat out in the rain for a while.








I need to get a few more things before I take any updated pics.
had it running pretty good today, but then Tony left and it started to run like crap. so I went back to the map I had when Tony got there, and it also ran like crap. I dont know what happened. it seemed like it was doing pretty good.
http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
Oh yeah, and that small oil leak has turned into a much bigger oil leak.
looks like Ill need - yet another - main seal, and Ill have to pull the crank out of one of my other motors.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

found out where the big oil mess came from.








I didnt tighten the oil-pump-drive-gear-cover-plug-retainer-piece bolt enough and it backed out from engine vibration. once I got the car out in the sun today I discovered the big mess of oil all over my brand new engine bay. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
had it running again today. I even drove it a few houses up the street and back without stalling. (barely)
its not running great, but I think it is getting there.
I spend some more time trying to get the stupid idle control valve to work.. I have THREE of the damned things. one with three pins, one with two pins in a "3 pin socket" (missing the middle pin) and another with just a two pin socket... I think the three pin one is jammed. it doesnt do anything when hooked up. the other 3 pin (minus 1) seems to respond to vasrying voltages quite well. if I give it 12v it opens all the way, 6v it opens half way. but no matter what settings I put into MS, they dont seem to make it work with any regularity. 
I will have to try hookup up the other 2 pin ISV tonight and see what I can do with that. 
the only reason I didnt go for a longer drive was that my brakes were REALLY spongy. I definitely need to bleed them again tonight.


----------



## Mr. Honda (Oct 17, 2008)

slowly but surely i'm sure this thing will be back much more then its former glory


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

small steps... At least you don't have to pull the crank out!!


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (VW_NUT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VW_NUT* »_small steps... At least you don't have to pull the crank out!!

the verdict is still out on that one. wont know till I run it a bit to see if the oil clears off wether that surface is too far gone. altho I could just turn it down and polish it on the lathe a bit and get an upsized gasket. just because VW doesnt sell them doesnt mean they arent made. altho, if Im going to take it out, I may as well replace it with a nicer one.
maybe Ill try to knife edge it...








So good news. after spending another hour bleeding the brakes, I started it up tonight without any problems. I shimmed open the throttle a tiny bit (1/32") and let it idle up to temp. then I drove it over to the mobile about a half mile away and filled her up with 91. as I was getting back in, a cop pulled up to the intersection from East ave and sat there at the light looking at me for a sec, then he pulled into the mobile right behind my car. I thought I was a gonner.
_keep in now, I currently have No hood. No front bumper, No seats other than the drivers seat, a pile of tools and crap in the car and my muffler is mis aligned and slamming against my underbody making a hell of a racket. _
So I did the what any man would do. *I prayed,* then turned the key. the car started right up, with only a little sputter, but with plenty of rattling from the exhaust. and then I drove off before the cop could get out of his car.







I figured if he wanted me he would have to come and get me. I wasnt going to stick around and chat.









oh yeah, I need to bleed the brakes AGAIN. they still feel like mush, only now when I really get onto them the car pulls to the right. 
that is progress at least... right?

OK so since most of you jerkoffs dont like to read, Ill oblidge you with some pics.
























here is a couple pics of the air filter I found on the side of the road. - seriously.
I was in need of an air filter and this one magically appeared on the side of the road on trash pickup day. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 









look at all this rust! it must have been left outside for a while.









and here is a pic of my daughter Valentine Echo, whom I havent seen a lot of lately because I am always out in the garage... I just want this to be over with so I can go spend some time with my kid. heh.


----------



## Loke (Nov 4, 2002)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_










What is with the hair?! I haven't seen you with that much hair in ten years!


----------



## twardnw (Sep 25, 2006)

*FV-QR*

where are you hiding the ECU and relay board?


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (twardnw)*

up under the dash above the fuse box. there is TONS of room behind there. 
my fuel trail took a dump on me today again. the bracket that holds the BBM fuel rail in place just doesnt let you get the rail down in far enough to keep a good seal on the stock (small) 1.8t injectors. so I took it to the shop and milled off a tenth of an inch.
lucky for me I have access to a machine shop at work...



_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 10:22 AM 4-30-2009_


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Loke)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Loke* »_
What is with the hair?! I haven't seen you with that much hair in ten years!

*laugh*
yeah I was really letting myself go there for a while. the last time I shaved it was just before we painted the engine bay. I said "Im not shaving my head again till this pig RUNS.
I shaved it sunday after I started it up on saturday night.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

so.. does anyone have any advice on the best way to get this running well?

Im getting a lot of sputtering and major lean conditions at about 3000 rpms and up under load. I have made some changes to the VE tables but they dont seem to help. Im wondering if I might have something else going on..


----------



## My Old Roc (Aug 14, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

I'm just jumping in here without bothering to read any of the rest of this thread








I am 
_Quote, originally posted by *you* »_ one of the of you jerkoffs dont like to read 

Have you set your Required Fuel setting correctly to the injectors you have?
(Basic Settings ~~> Engine Constants 1 )
Is it lean all the way through the VE table, making you richen up every point on the graph?
Is runing this crappy when the engine is still cold, as in, it's running through it's Warm Up settings? Cause it ignores the VE table until its done with the Warm Up procedured ( set to kick back onto to the VE table at 160 degrees on the water temp)



_Modified by My Old Roc at 10:42 PM 4-30-2009_


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_so.. does anyone have any advice on the best way to get this running well?

Im getting a lot of sputtering and major lean conditions at about 3000 rpms and up under load. I have made some changes to the VE tables but they dont seem to help. Im wondering if I might have something else going on..


Under load like driving, or under load like reving it up? Also post your acceleration inrichments screen here and have someone with a stock throttle body and intake manifold take a look at it. 
It definitely had a lean stumble if you snaped the throttle, but if you reved it up slower it was better.
How does it drive if you roll the throttle smoothly? I'll try and catch up with you this weekend. Tuning is so much easier when you don't have to drive and watch the laptop at the same time...


_Modified by VW_NUT at 9:57 AM 5-1-2009_


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (VW_NUT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *My Old Roc* »_I'm just jumping in here without bothering to read any of the rest of this thread








I am 
Have you set your Required Fuel setting correctly to the injectors you have?
(Basic Settings ~~> Engine Constants 1 )
Is it lean all the way through the VE table, making you richen up every point on the graph?
Is runing this crappy when the engine is still cold, as in, it's running through it's Warm Up settings? Cause it ignores the VE table until its done with the Warm Up procedured ( set to kick back onto to the VE table at 160 degrees on the water temp)
_Modified by My Old Roc at 10:42 PM 4-30-2009_

I havent driven it at below 160f so I dont know. I think I may have not configured the req fuel right. I just redid it again for the 30.15lb/hr rating these injectors are supposed to be, and the req fuel went up. but since Im not connected to the ECU I will have to upload a new msq when I get home.

_Quote, originally posted by *VW_NUT* »_
Under load like driving, or under load like reving it up? Also post your acceleration inrichments screen here and have someone with a stock throttle body and intake manifold take a look at it. 
It definitely had a lean stumble if you snaped the throttle, but if you reved it up slower it was better.
How does it drive if you roll the throttle smoothly? I'll try and catch up with you this weekend. Tuning is so much easier when you don't have to drive and watch the laptop at the same time...
_Modified by VW_NUT at 9:57 AM 5-1-2009_

under load when driving. I can rev it up pretty good now. it still dives when I flick the throttle, but if I keep tapping on it rapidly it comes out of it. 
it pretty much leans out completely at 4k. when driving I cant get it to go any higher. but I may have figured out what was wrong with it... when I im-ported that stock 2.0 msq file, I assumed the fuel table and spark table came with it, but - was I supposed to download those separately?


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Sounds like you have found some places to look. Bringing up the rec_fuel # will richen it up. 
Also check the fuel table to make sure it uploaded. I remember the one I saw on the screen being different than most people's 16v maps. It also stopped at 6000 rpm IIRC..
Also I ASS_U_ME everyone tuning megasquirt here is doing so with the reference vacume line hooked to the fuel pressure regulator.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (VW_NUT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VW_NUT* »_
Also I ASS_U_ME everyone tuning megasquirt here is doing so with the reference vacume line hooked to the fuel pressure regulator.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

OK. so I am not having any luck getting this thing tuned. Ive tried changing the ve table, the afr table, ignition, etc. I can get it to play nice right up to about 3500 and it effectively hits a wall at 3800rpms.
the symptoms are that when I give it gas, either fast or slowly, it starts to sputter and miss at around 3500 and on. 
I havent ruled out a hardware malfunction, like a bad coil or bad chip on the MS ecu, but I am hoping its just a configuration issue and someone might be able to help me.
So Im going to attach some screen grabs of my tables and contour maps, in hopes that someone might be able to give me some insight to what I might be missing.
for starters, here are a few shots of my settings. - some might not be important - 
First, my current msq file: http://www.angrymods.com/proje...3.msq
General








Idle control set to none
Injector characteristics








EGO control, calibrated for the Innovate LC-1 default 0.5-5v








automatic mixture control disabled
ignition options (no trigger wheel)
Dwell settings, 3.1ms with accelleration compensation of 1ms
no knock stuff..
VE table (or grab the vex)








ve contour map








AFR table, (download)








afr contour map








Spark advance table, (vex)








Contour map.








MAT based timing retard








My wife needs me to pay attention to our daughter, so thats all for now..


_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 5:16 PM 5-3-2009_


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

anyone have any useful advice?


----------



## Mr. Honda (Oct 17, 2008)

jeesh looks like you jacked up the values on the ve table, and it made no difference?


----------



## My Old Roc (Aug 14, 2003)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Well here's what my VE table looks like:








I dunno how much different mine is to yours being an 8v with a few goodies on there, but I would assume that the numbers should be at least close.
Hope that helps somehow...hate to leave another MS brother twisting like this!
Yours re-posted for comparison









.............On second look, it looks like you are drowning in fuel compared to mine......what's your A/F say about it?



_Modified by My Old Roc at 11:07 PM 5-3-2009_


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (My Old Roc)*

my AFR was saying it was really lean. maybe it was so rich it was missing and claiming to be lean. I got a new VE table and timing table from vw_nut and I am trying those today, and Ive got some timing issues to work out as well. Ill keep you posted.


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

If you misfire either from bad timing, a weak spark, or being too rich it will look lean because there is no combusion occuring.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (VW_NUT)*

Bingo. I think that is what was happening. I made some adjustments this morning and it appears to have paid off very well. I followed a tip from g60peru's thread here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2862011 where he said how to dial in the distributor.

_Quote, originally posted by *g60peru* »_I set the engine at 6 º BTDC using the marking on the flywheel and then carefully turned the distributor (with a multitester hooked up) until I saw it was exactly at the rising edge. That makes sure that MS-II gets the rising edge exactly at 6 º BTDC (which is what it uses for cranking and what you enter in the "Trigger offset" field when you configure it.

then I changed my ignition options to be just like g60perus








you may notice that I had a maximum spark duration of 25 ms before. i dont know why. 2ms seems to be working quite well.








also, vw-nut sent me some other VE maps and timing maps and I think that really helped out a ton. 
it is running a bit rich, and if I come to a quick stop the rapid closed throttle decelleration will cause it to die. if I let the throttle out really slow it will stay alive, but if it starts to die I have to tap-tap-tap on the throttle to bring it back from a stuttering death. 
I took a couple logs of a trip accross the turnpike to auburn and back. they are almost a meg each, and I'll attach my current msq file for reference.
first the msq.http://www.angrymods.com/projects/megasquirt/settings/tpike.msq
now the first log. I started in the park and ride just before the lewiston on ramp. as I was waiting to pull out it stalled on me, you can see that a few seconds into the log.







I brought it up to speed fairly quick and then I cruised the couple miles to auburn at 75 mph in 5th. slowing down for road construction and then the off ramp, a stop light, and then into the park and ride there.
(800k)
http://www.angrymods.com/proje...e.xls
the second log was pulling out of the park and ride, and driving right onto the on ramp without stopping. I allowed the rpms to get pretty high in a couple spots. didnt have any misses or stuttering. I brought it up to 75 for a bit, and then floored it in 5th to go from 75 to 90 before setting into a 75mph cruise the rest of the way to Lewiston. I live under a mile from the turnpike onramp, so I took it straight home. pulling into my driveway (stopping) it sputtered and died again. I really need to get that decelleration cut issue fixed








(1meg)
http://www.angrymods.com/proje...2.xls


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (My Old Roc)*

thanks to tony I have new ve and timing tables.
here is my ve table, but notice how differently my rpms settings are. from 900 to 8500.








my spark advance table doesnt uses the same rpm amounts..


----------



## Mr. Honda (Oct 17, 2008)

when do you think it'll be good for a trip to tabors


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (Mr. Honda)*

its good right now. and with my current ride height I could even make it all the way around without bottoming out.








but we better do it soon, since Im gonna lower it in a couple days.
in fact, I might take it for a little stroll tonight. I need to put some miles down on the new motor.


----------



## Mr. Honda (Oct 17, 2008)

well, you dont have to go ALL the way around for tabors, which is reasonably smooth, alot smoother then your driveway, and if it can handle your driveway it sure can atleast make it to tabors!


----------



## rcortez13 (Nov 21, 2005)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_thanks to tony I have new ve and timing tables.
here is my ve table, but notice how differently my rpms settings are. from 900 to 8500.








my spark advance table doesnt uses the same rpm amounts..


















Are you running the maps now? If so, how does it run? I need something I can use for dyno day this weekend.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

I have made some changes to these maps in an attempt to get it running better at idle with no luck. I am expecting some new tables from Tony that should get me a little closer.
these tables were good, but without an ISV I stalled a lot.


----------



## Shawn B (Nov 27, 2003)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

You should be able to adjust your idle using your idle set screw and then remember to re-calibrate your TPS. Not sure what other settings I have that may be different I can tell you that a lot of them came from valve_cover_gaskets old 16V megasquirt thread (he's got everything posted in it).


----------



## My Old Roc (Aug 14, 2003)

*Re: (Shawn B)*

Also remember that when you adjust the spark table, and/or the spark trigger angles, and/or your actual distributer position, it tends to get your a/f mixes out of whack too. You have to compensate for any spark movement with a readjusting of yout A/F mix ( either in the req fuel setting, or in the VE Table plot points)
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (My Old Roc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *My Old Roc* »_Also remember that when you adjust the spark table, and/or the spark trigger angles, and/or your actual distributer position, it tends to get your a/f mixes out of whack too. You have to compensate for any spark movement with a readjusting of yout A/F mix ( either in the req fuel setting, or in the VE Table plot points)
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

thanks for the tip. Ill have to check that out as well.
I did seem to make a marked improvement to it tonight, it went from stalling all the time to idling magnificently in just a few clicks. what I did was set a column for 800 rpms and set the timing to 45 in the whole row. now it seems to run a lot better. I am sure there are more changes that will need to be made, but right now I have other things that need doing, so fine tuning will have to wait.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

OK. last night VW_nut and I did some logging and analysis and discovered a few thigns. I think my MAP sensor is reading all over the place and it might be causing some trouble all over the place, so I plan on putting some kind of pin hole filter or something on there today to clean that up some.
My 02 sensor is very jumpy. my 02 readings are all over the place and I dont know why. I have EGO correction all turned off so my 02 sensor should affect MS any yet, but the readouts on the o2 are very strange.
Also, I have a very strange "blip" that happens at 5100 RPMs. every time I floor it, and hold thoughout the full rpm rnage, at just shy of 5100 roms, my pulse width and duty cycles spike. with my pulse width over 80%, and duty cycle over 9.5. this happens in the very same place every time. 
here is a screenshot with everything included so you can see what I am talking about.. - click the link for the full sized picture
http://www.angrymods.com/proje...h.gif








note: I do not have EGO control, or autotune on. I I have turned off MAT timing retard as well. I was in second gear with the gas to the floor for this short section of log. I am attaching my msq files and the 1.8 meg log for anyone to look through. if anyone would be willing to have a look at it, I would be greatly appreciative.
Im going to get a filter on my MAP line in a few minutes and take some more logs. Ill post back shortly.
here is my current msq file.
http://www.angrymods.com/proje...2.msq
and my datalog (1.8 megs)
http://www.angrymods.com/proje...2.xls


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Couple other notes that I am sure some of you guys with more MS experience can help with. 
1. Acceleration enrichments need work. Does someone have values they can share with us? Jon is currently split between tps and map dot.
2. Are any of you guys running with your reference vacuum on your fuel pressure regulator unhooked? I've seen this before and would have had Jon hook it up, but didn't want to change things since it was running ok.


----------



## -RalleyTuned- (Nov 17, 2008)

*Re: (VW_NUT)*

the accel enrichments should only really be tweaked after the afr's are really close to where they should be, generally you just slowly increase until they get better, takes a bit of time playing with them to get it worked out. you have to be driving (in my experiance) or the results are not true to what you will experiance while driving (for instance if you just sit and blip the throttle and make changes). if you are not running ITB's you should be able to just use the TPS for the accel. if the light flickers on/off alot, your TPS has issues and you should run straight MAPdot. I have seen this many many times in the past few years with the 16v tps sensors.
i never run with the FRP hooked to vacum reference. It makes it slightly more difficult to tune since the fuel pressure is changing with the engine load. Un-hooking it now will require a little bit of re-tuning, but i think you will find it much easier and simpler to tune that way


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: (-RalleyTuned-)*

Ok, its unhooked now so that won't be an issue.


----------



## -RalleyTuned- (Nov 17, 2008)

*Re: (VW_NUT)*

ah read that wrong, yes leave it as is http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## My Old Roc (Aug 14, 2003)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_ I think my MAP sensor is reading all over the place and it might be causing some trouble all over the place, so I plan on putting some kind of pin hole filter or something on there today to clean that up some.

AH--the fix for this is as follows:
Head to Pep Boys or other cheezy equivilant---hell, even Walmart has these...and find this type of fuel filter and put it inline on the vacume hose from the manifold to the MS...it helps smooth out the pulses..








Also, I was instructed to take a MIG Welding tip (which I just happened to have) and also put it inline on the same vacume line.
I guess the restriction at the beginning on the line tends to fill the rest of the line with smooth pressure..








Try that!


_Modified by My Old Roc at 11:11 AM 5-12-2009_


----------



## -RalleyTuned- (Nov 17, 2008)

*Re: (My Old Roc)*

where are you pulling vac. from that does this? i dont think i have ever seen that issue


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: (-RalleyTuned-)*

IIRC, he's pulling vacuum off the back of the 16v intake manifold off the pipe that goes to the brake booster.
I had this issue with my 16v on SDS. I was really rough to drive before the MIG tip in the vacuum line. Jon if you need a MIG tip drop me a line.


----------



## -RalleyTuned- (Nov 17, 2008)

*Re: (VW_NUT)*

weird, i always pull vacuum from those spots and have never come across this, good little info to know if i do see it though http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: (-RalleyTuned-)*

Do the MAP values fluxuate in your data logs like Jon's?
I don't really know what is normal...


----------



## -RalleyTuned- (Nov 17, 2008)

*Re: (VW_NUT)*

i was actually going to pull up a log tonight and check that, it definitely hasn't posed any issues while tuning or driving (it averages 37mpg on the freeway and drives excellent), but figured i'd pull up a log and check both of my cars.


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: (-RalleyTuned-)*

Jumpy MAP values are pretty common in my experience.
The fuel filter and MIG tip Andy pictured are the same that I use.
Datalogs show less than .1 sec difference in the MAP response to the TPS response from zero throttle to full throttle. 
Smoothing out your MAP signal evens out PW, timing and reduces noise effect on AE and there doesn't seem to be any downside as far as response.
As far as referencing the FPR to manifold vacuum, the advantage if you're running large injectors, say 440cc or larger for boost, then the vacuum reference reduces fuel pressure at low load requiring a slightly larger PW for the same AFR, therefore giving you better control of AFR.
Not much of a deal if you're running MS 2 or Hi res code for MS 1 with their .001 ms PW resolution and not much of a deal if you're running small injectors properly sized for an NA engine. But with large injectors with MS1 code and .1ms PW resolution vacuum referenced FPR can help.
Clearly not needed in this particular case with MS2 and properly sized injectors (85% duty cycle) on an NA engine.


----------



## -RalleyTuned- (Nov 17, 2008)

*Re: (J. Daniel)*

good points on all regards, gonna look at some log files tonight, may be stopping by the welding store tomorrow haha


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (-RalleyTuned-)*

OK... somehow I managed to lose a post I typed up a little while ago..
to summarize, it said: I installed a mig tip today and it helped to smooth out the map signal some. I didnt get any good WOT logs tho, but I did drive it around some. it seems to buck in a few places tho, so it looks liek I have some more tuning that I need to do before I get this thing really going. 

on another topic, but still MS related:
I am finally getting ready to put a knock sensor on it. looking at the KnockSense from Boris over at Viatrack Printed Circuit Designs http://www.viatrack.ca and came into a slight issue:
fist, I have a 2.0 9a block and I dont know what car it came out of. 
I have two good condition knock sensors with blue plugs. bosch part number 0261231036. I tried to find the motor these should go on but got some confusing into. it appears that this sensor is used on all sorts of motors, including a 99 1.8t, where they use one blue plugger, and one green plugger.








I am hoping that Boris has some helpful info for me. I should probably check my email...


----------



## twardnw (Sep 25, 2006)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *-RalleyTuned-* »_i never run with the FRP hooked to vacum reference. It makes it slightly more difficult to tune since the fuel pressure is changing with the engine load. Un-hooking it now will require a little bit of re-tuning, but i think you will find it much easier and simpler to tune that way


thanks Brendon, I didn't have a clue about this, I'm going to unhook mine and re-tune, see what it gets me.


----------



## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (twardnw)*

Ok, now that Jon has made it to Ohio and back it's running reliably enough, but we are having some trouble with the spark map.
this is what we are running








I always found this to be a "good" 16v map, but under heavy load the car pings like crazy. Fueling is decent between 12-13.5:1 (still need to smooth it out a little). I've tried moving the advance down to 24 for the top 2 rows above 3,000rpm, and it still pinged.








I will verify one more time that the timing at the flywheel matches what we are supposed to have in MS.
Also, do you guys run any values in your intake temperature correction? Right now the boxes are empty.




_Modified by VW_NUT at 6:05 PM 6-10-2009_


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (VW_NUT)*

So its springtime finally, and time to give the rocco the attention it needs. I am bringing this thread back from the dead because I never really got all the answers I needed last year. it has been one problem after another, but this year I hope to start over with a clean slate.
Some of the problems I had last year were a blown head gasket, a leaky exhaust header, a sheared keyway on my crank timing gear, a burned vb921 chip and all sorts of other fun. 
I have installed a new head gasket, Ive planed flat my bad header and sealed the leak, Ive replaced the overheated vb921 with a BIP373, and Ive replaced the bad timing gear. 
I am building an all new msq file from scratch. reading the megamanual and setup guide voer and over again, and Im using the latest (at the moment) code. (MSII rev 2.89100)
last year the engine ran like crap. it would ping like crazy under heavy acceleration. - but I got good gas mileage. like 33 miles per gallon. go figure.
So to restate the stats on my build, I have a 2L 9a block, with a 1.8 16v head with a euro intake cam. I have a MS2 cpu, v3 board, and I am using the bip373 to drive my coil directly. 
I am lookng for some advice from ms2 users with naturally aspirated engines. I would love to browse over some vex files or msq's if anyones willing to share. Also, if anyone here us using the ms ecu to drive the coil directly, or managing dwell and stuff, I would like to see your settings for that as well.
thanks in advance









p.s. this is the ve table we were using last year. it is the "fuel" map from the spitfireefi site. http://www.spitfireefi.com/fil...).vex








here is the spark map I grabbed from spitfireefi
http://www.spitfireefi.com/fil...).vex and just below, compare it to the map VW_NUT made last year (notice the low rpm advance as a makeshift idle control.)








Tonys










_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 11:56 PM 3-29-2010_


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

well, so much for making any progress today. I got 4 hours of sleep and had to watch my girl till noon because our day care had the morning off. my fancy new timing light showed up, but it was ten minutes before I had to go to work. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
on the bright side, I got a slick new Equus Innova 5568 Pro Timing Light (with Tool Case)
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?...f3fe2








at 100$ it was a bit pricey, but it should last me forever..


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

it lives!! popped the ecu back in the car tonight, and reset my timing and ignition settings. took a few tries to get it right,. and it started hard (as usual) but I got it running./ it doesnt seem to have the sputter that it was having before, but I wasnt able to drive it around to find out for sure. Im going to get lots of sleep tonight so I can be bright eyed tomorrow for some driving and logging...
p.s here is my "starter" msq file. it hasnt been tuned at all. 
http://www.angrymods.com/proje...3.msq
important info here
software: MSII Rev 2.89100
cpu: MS2
v3 board
bip373 driving the coil directly
2.0L 16v with euro intake cam
g60 26lb injectors at 43psi




_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 10:18 PM 3-31-2010_


----------



## Dubrunner (Nov 8, 2000)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

GOOD TO HEAR - been watching this thread as I too will have this sort of setup - albeit ITB's in a month or two. So, I'm always keeping an eye on the tables and progress.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (Dubrunner)*

it runs! Like total crap!!!!!!








I am getting so sick of this POS.. frigged around with it all morning and nothing I did made any difference.
it sputters like crazy under load. I dont have a knock sensor, so I cant tell if its knock, or a missfire. 
I swapped out the coil in hopes that the coil might be the problem... NOPE.
checked all my plugs, they are nice and even light tan. so it looks like its burning OK.
checked the compression on all 4 cyls, all come out good. ~180
I am so fed up with this thing, Im about ready to scrap it.


----------



## LT1M21Stingray (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_it runs! Like total crap!!!!!!








I am getting so sick of this POS.. frigged around with it all morning and nothing I did made any difference.
...
I am so fed up with this thing, Im about ready to scrap it.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (Mtl-Marc)*

anyone feel like taking a glance at my log and looking for something I am missing?
here is one of the logs I made today. its like 350k.
http://www.angrymods.com/proje...2.msl
here is the msq file that was loaded at the time
http://www.angrymods.com/proje...3.msq
the thing stutters like crazy when accelerating under load.
any guidance would be appreciated


----------



## mk1vw (Oct 17, 2007)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

i feel your pain.
i helped a friend with an install on a 92 GTI with a 3A 8V.
the car detonated like crazy, would cut out and sputtered all the time.
turned out most of the problems were not even MS related.
the thermostat wasn't opening fully, the fan switch turned on way late, spark plug wires were arcing and the ignition switch was intermittent.
the car ran great after we finally tracked down all the VW problems.
too many people have made MS run great. you can do it too. don't give up.


----------



## mk1vw (Oct 17, 2007)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

did you notice your MAP values range from 32 to 34?








you have a MAP sensor problem. either the sensor itself, the vacuum line or the vacuum source.


----------



## mk1dubbn (Dec 2, 2009)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Holly crap this is what I got to look forward too.
http://www.angrymods.com/proje...2.msl 
It almost looks spanglish.


----------



## mk1dubbn (Dec 2, 2009)

*Re: (Mtl-Marc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mtl-Marc* »_









X2 your ride is one of the best I have seen on here.


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (mk1dubbn)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk1dubbn* »_Holly crap this is what I got to look forward too.
http://www.angrymods.com/proje...2.msl 
It almost looks spanglish.

LOL. thats a log file. you right click and save as. open it on your computer with megatune, and then open the msq file I linked. it looks a lot nicer that way


----------



## Rannoch (Mar 19, 2008)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk1vw* »_did you notice your MAP values range from 32 to 34?








you have a MAP sensor problem. either the sensor itself, the vacuum line or the vacuum source.


I don't see any varying TPS or MAP values so I gotta agree with mk1vw.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Rannoch)*

yeah, there was a kink in my map hose. my ecu is hanging from my dash right now while I frig with it.
I made some more adjustments to it tonight. cracked open my tb a hair, and cranked my timing way up. gonna have another go at it tomorrow.
still runs like crap!
Tomorrow I'm going to reqire my o2 sensor to get a better power and ground. right now when I start the car the o2 sensor flickers on and off, and often goes into "error" mode.


----------



## mk1vw (Oct 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

it's gonna run like crap until you verify the MAP is reading properly.
The most important inputs for MS are RPM and MAP. Everything else like warmup, AE, etc. is just small pulsewidth additions.
I would like to see an updated datalog if it runs the same after you un-kinked the vacuum line.


----------



## mk1dubbn (Dec 2, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

If the o2 not reading right wouldnt that be worse then the map.
I under stand they both are of great importance.
Is there a order that that it goes in .
1. the rich/lean decided by the o2.
2.Map sensing how hard to push the injector.
little at idle alot at w.o.t.
Or am I just thinking to hard?


----------



## mk1vw (Oct 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (mk1dubbn)*

MAP and RPM working with the VE table entry is weighted much more than 02. 
02 is a tweak after you dial in the VE table.
and the VE table is not effective unless you have a good RPM and *MAP* signal.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (mk1vw)*

do believe my rpm signal is good. and my map signal appears to be fine also, looking at my latest logs. Im going to go make some new logs with my current maps and see what that gets me.
Ill post them here later.


----------



## punchbug (Jul 15, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Always remember, the nice thing about this setp is the ability to log. Then you know what your car is up to. No guesswork like CIS. And yes, it IS possible to have a fun, reliable car running on MS. It's worked out well for me and I'm useless with computers. Sometimes I think that may actually be an advantage. Good luck, and keep at it.


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (punchbug)*

got ion it today and fired it right up. I held my foot to the floor to flood clear it while starting, and let it crank a few turns before letting the gas out and it caught and fired. feathered the throttle for a minute or so to keep it alive, and then drove it around the block. I drive it quite aggressively, and it has plenty of power, but it still pings like crazy. I tried dialing the timing back in higher rpms and map, but just made it worse.
Ill upload my msq and log, but understand that my ignition map is really wild because I was trying to work some things out. 
here is my msq, http://www.angrymods.com/proje...y.msq
and my log, (2.5 megs)
http://www.angrymods.com/proje...1.msl
(right click, save as)


----------



## mk1vw (Oct 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

for some reason i can't DL the MSQ so I can't see your VE table or req fuel.
i didn't read your thread so i don't know about your hardware. are the injectors verified spraying good consistent patterns? all ignition items like plugs/wires/cap in good shape?


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

Downloaded your msq.
The VE table looks reasonable.
The spark advance table is totally effed up. I'm seeing 45 deg advance at any load over 2500 RPM. I'd suggest you go back to the advance table you posted back on page 8 as "Tony's" table. While not great it's much better than what I'm seeing in your current msq.
45 deg is OK for cruising at less than 50kpa. But at WOT your advance should be a maximum of 30deg and probably a few degrees less than that. Idle around 10deg.
Not that I'm a god or anything but you could take the advance table from the msq I sent you and expand the non-boost portion to your NA table. Maybe pull a couple degrees out of the WOT portion since the high compresion 16V needs a little less advance than a low compression turbo 8V at 100 kpa.
Also I question your trigger offset. Maybe MS II is different from all the other versions, but in my experience the value for trigger offset on a VW is typically about 70 deg. Maybe somebody can verify this with MS II. My understanding is the trigger needs to happen early enough that the CPU has time to calculate the spark and make it happen before your maximum advance of 45 deg.
Reset trigger angle to 70deg, probably have to change "ignition input capture" from falling edge to rising edge then recheck actual timing to make sure it matches what MS thinks it is.
Again input from somebody familiar with MS II would help here. MS II extra seems to be quite different.


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (J. Daniel)*

Another thought. Light load tuning in my experience is the most difficult. There is more than enough resolution in the 16 X 16 MS II tables for you to set the lowest kpa row to 10 instead of 30. 
The engine goes down to that level on overrun and will come out of that area more cleanly if you extend the table into that region.
Megalogviewer is wanting to richen up your VE table everywhere, but I'd get the advance table closer to reality before completely changing the VE table.


----------



## punchbug (Jul 15, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (J. Daniel)*

I didn't look at the tables because there's no point, and JDaniel, you may be human, but you're sure a hell of a helpful human on this stuff. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif No way I'd have this car driving and happy wthout your help. Not that its perfect by any means.
Anyway, if it's pinging, get it dealt with. Retard it till it stops. I was going a degree or two, but it needed more aggessive retarding than that. This was on the mildest map I'd started with. Oddly, I mucked with it at the track and the ETs clearly showed improvement when I retarded it. But I still ended up "liberating a ring land" http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif (becase I am an idiot)







Best to start with a conservative map (rich/retarded) and move slowly out of the safe zone.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (J. Daniel)*

Thanks for the advice JD. I was trying to follow some advice I got from ottowa g60 to set my trigger angle at 6*btdc. when I turn my timing light.

I guess I dont understand how setting the trigger angle to 70 degrees can make the spark happen at the right time. 
I am having a hard time understanding the megamanual. 
for starters, the manual says:
*Trigger Offset (deg) (adv_offset in the code) is the advance before (or after) top dead center (BTDC) that the engine gets in it's signal from the engine's variable reluctor (VR) or Hall sensor. In many cases, this will be used as the 'base timing' for cranking as well as if the module loses its connection the ECU. *
this is confusing as hell. if I set that for 70, I dont think I want my spark happening at 60btdc when trying to start, which seems like this paragraph might suggest.
I was thinking that the each segment of the 16v dizzy "wheel" was equal. I just now measured the windows and walls on a spare 16v dizzy, and they are *not *equal. the walls are *about *19mm and the windows are *around *15.75mm. using a little geometry, that brings me to *roughly* 50* and 40* respectively. (using measured Chord lengths and 46mm Diameter) 

OK, so add 50* for the length of the wall, and 6*btdc that my distributor has been turned to after the window opens, thats 56*. not 70*,, help me out here...

*Ignition Input Capture (ICIgnOption Bits 0-3) This is the ignition input signal event that should signal the base timing (Advance Offset) has been achieved. For example, the GM 7-pin HEI module takes the variable reluctor signal, and generates a positive going pulse when the base advance point is reached. In this case, the 'Rising Edge' is chosen, as the positive going transition is used as a trigger. *
(blank stare)








*Cranking Trigger - changes requires an MS-II reboot This can be 'calculated', in the normal manner, or you can have the spark occur when the 'trigger return's, i.e. goes low. Trigger return essentially uses the module's base setting for cranking timing. *
so this is saying that when I turn the key it would try to fire the spark 70*btdc... or do I have that wrong? my settings are:
Trigger offset : 2.00
ignition input capture: falling edge
Cranking Trigger: trigger rise
your saying I should change that to 70, rising, and what? leave cranking trigger alone? or switch it to trigger return?
then what about my advance map? do I need to offset that whole thing by 70?
Megasquirt is hard...


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

I made the base ignition options changes like JD suggested, set my trigger angle to 70, ign capture to rising edge, and crank trigger to trigger return. then I got the car runing and warmed up a bit, set a big block of my advance map to a nice even number, and then rna the trigger wizard to dial it in. I ended up with 75.7 for my trigger offset. OK.
I loaded up "Tonys spark map" and took it for a stroll around some back roads in town, and I found that if my timing isnt advanced enough, the car sputters and misses. if I wind the timing up enough to not sputter, it pings. 
I ended up with a wild timing map with very high advance settings at high kpa and rpms. around 50* for anything over 70kpa and 1800 rpms.
it pings like crazy, but doesnt sputter.


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_
I guess I dont understand how setting the trigger angle to 70 degrees can make the spark happen at the right time. 
I am having a hard time understanding the megamanual. 
for starters, the manual says:
*Trigger Offset (deg) (adv_offset in the code) is the advance before (or after) top dead center (BTDC) that the engine gets in it's signal from the engine's variable reluctor (VR) or Hall sensor. In many cases, this will be used as the 'base timing' for cranking as well as if the module loses its connection the ECU. *


Yep, I read that part and it's always confused me too.
The last time I used MS2 not extra was version 2.6








My settings were:
Trigger angle-75
Ignition input capture-Rising edge
Cranking trigger-Trigger return.
This is the way I understand it.
The CPU gets a signal and based on all the inputs, mostly the advance table, it takes some small amount of time to calculate what advance is being asked for, then calculates how long it has to wait before firing the coil to get that advance.
So if it gets the trigger at 75 deg BTDC, takes 5 degs of time to calculate when to fire (just as an example), then waits 25 deg more to fire the coil for 45 deg advance being requested in the advance table.
But if the trigger angle is 2 deg then the CPU is getting the signal* after* the advance requested in the advance table. In all probablility it's generating the spark for the next cylinder.
As for the cranking the normal signal trigger is rising edge in my example, but the cranking signal is the falling edge which as you mention is 40-50 deg after the rising edge and approximately correct for starting.
Having said all that if your car starts and you've verified that the spark happens when MS is indicating it should happen, verified both at idle and elevated revs, then for now I'd just change the advance table to "tony's" table and see how that goes.
Couple additional thoughts.
first changing all these parameters is only to get the engine to actually have the advance that is shown in the advance table. In other words the advance table is actual advance without any offsets.
Second if you change the trigger angle per my example above you may find out that you need to relocate all the plug wires in the distributor cap. Your trigger angle is so late it doesn't seem to me it can be firing the cylinder you think it's firing.
Last, MS II is a bit of a big step. I've built and tuned many MS I equipped cars so I'm familiar with MS, but going to MS II was a big step up even considering that. For your application MS I Hi-res is more than adequate and IMO much easier to learn and implement.
Plus there doesn't seem to be an experience base you can tap into for MS II.
I'll send you an MS I CPU for nothing. I don't want you to loose your Scirocco love ****ing around trying to learn MS II with virtually no help.l


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

As I said "tony's" table is pretty good. Not perfect but a nice moderate table that should give decent power without pinging.
I'd leave the advance table alone and adjust the other settings, trigger angle, rising edge/falling edge, blah, blah.
Somewhere there has to be a setting that fixes advance at a specified value so you can check that actual timing matches MS requested timing, but I'm not finding that. The timing definitely needs to be fixed to check this. A combination of distributor rotation in the head and trigger angle should be used to get the settings to correlate.
Again, changing the trigger angle from 2 to 75 may require you to move all the plug wires in the distributor 90 deg.


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: (J. Daniel)*

And just to throw more **** in the soup, your AFR table is very rich.
It should have an AFR of 13.5 max at WOT, most of the table should be at stoich, 14.7, and light load cruising should be 15-16 AFR.
But don't worry about that till you've got the engine running clean with decent advance values. Engines will still run pretty well even when they're pig rich.


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: (J. Daniel)*

Tools>Trigger wizard.
But I'm not connected to an MS so don't really know how it works.
Ready to bite the ears off that chocolate bunny yet?


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (J. Daniel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *J. Daniel* »_
I'll send you an MS I CPU for nothing. I don't want you to loose your Scirocco love ****ing around trying to learn MS II with virtually no help.l

I'm about ready to take you up on that. I set my entire advance table to 30 degrees because I couldnt find where to set it to "fixed". then I used the settings you suggested, and used the trigger wizard and my adjustable timing light to get it dialed in, and ended up with 75.7. 
I didnt move my plugs around tho, because I hadnt got that piece of advice from you yet. it seems to run OK as it is, but like I said previously, if the timing isnt heavily advanced, it sputters, and it its advanced far enough to not sputter it pings..


----------



## mk1vw (Oct 17, 2007)

trigger angle stuff is confusing, but i found a technique here on the tex that works great.
this is nice b/c you use the 6 degree mark already on the flywheel and you don't need an adjustable timing light.
quoted:
"set your trigger angle in ms to 60*
set your advance to a fixed 6*
use a timing light (0 advance if adjustable) to line up your stock 6* mark on the flywheel.
done."
well, almost. now set your fixed angle back to -10 to follow the map.
BTW, this is for MS1. MS2 may be different.
edit- i realized this may be confusing. turn the distributor to show 6 degrees advance with the timing light. Since your fixed angle is set 6 degrees, now your engine timing is syncd with MS.
then you change the fixed angle back to -10 so MS will follow the spark map.



_Modified by mk1vw at 11:12 AM 4-4-2010_


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (mk1vw)*

I am learning very quickly, that ms2 is absolutely nothing like ms1. which is why Im having so much trouble with my ms2 setup.


_Quote, originally posted by *mk1vw* »_trigger angle stuff is confusing, but i found a technique here on the tex that works great.
this is nice b/c you use the 6 degree mark already on the flywheel and you don't need an adjustable timing light.
quoted:
"set your trigger angle in ms to 60*
set your advance to a fixed 6*
use a timing light (0 advance if adjustable) to line up your stock 6* mark on the flywheel.
done."
well, almost. now set your fixed angle back to -10 to follow the map.
BTW, this is for MS1. MS2 may be different.
edit- i realized this may be confusing. turn the distributor to show 6 degrees advance with the timing light. Since your fixed angle is set 6 degrees, now your engine timing is syncd with MS.
then you change the fixed angle back to -10 so MS will follow the spark map.


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

question: how would a Euro intake cam affect my VE and/or AFR tables? would it affect my timing?
Note: I do not have an adjustable cam gear installed.


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

A different intake cam shouldn't effect your AFR table at all.
Your VE table will need probably less fuel at a low load and low RPM and more fuel at high load high RPM.
Optimum timing wouldn't change more than a degree or so with the different cam.
Engine's are pretty tolerant of the AFR as long as it's within the 13-15 range though so I doubt that's your issue.


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_
I'm about ready to take you up on that. 

You have my email if you want it. http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_
but like I said previously, if the timing isnt heavily advanced, it sputters, and it its advanced far enough to not sputter it pings..









I truly don't know what's going on with this.


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (J. Daniel)*

OK, I think I know what's up.
I suspect this is the same **** My Old Roc Andy went through.
Some VW's, few I suspect, work OK with the "standard" hall sensor input wiring.
Most need revised wiring.
http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms1...#hall
I suspect your board is wired for "high to low" and it needs to be wired for "low to high".


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (J. Daniel)*

Ill take another look at my dizzy tomorrow. 
I will say, It seems to start a lot better now.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*

OK. I jsut checked my distributor and it is a low to high, (ground when no tooth, high when tooth in front of the sensor) but here is the thing, the high signal isnt very high. its only about 2.5 volts... Ive got a resistor jumpering between tach signal in and vref to bring the signal high, but is it possible its not high enough?
p.s. I am using a relay board...


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_OK. I jsut checked my distributor and it is a low to high, (ground when no tooth, high when tooth in front of the sensor) but here is the thing, the high signal isnt very high. its only about 2.5 volts... Ive got a resistor jumpering between tach signal in and vref to bring the signal high, but is it possible its not high enough?
p.s. I am using a relay board...

Tach signal input to the MS board is a straight feed through the relay board. So no issue there.
Are you powering your hall sensor with 5V or 12V?
The factory setup, and all the MS setups I've done, power it with 12V.


----------



## mk1vw (Oct 17, 2007)

probably a stupid question, but regarding your ignition circuit- did you jumper D1 and D2 and omit c30 and c12?


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (mk1vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *J. Daniel* »_
Are you powering your hall sensor with 5V or 12V?
The factory setup, and all the MS setups I've done, power it with 12V.

I'm powering it with 5v. out of fear that I might have fried it. Ill pull it and set it up for 12v instead. 

_Quote, originally posted by *mk1vw* »_probably a stupid question, but regarding your ignition circuit- did you jumper D1 and D2 and omit c30 and c12?


I do believe so. Ive checked and rechecked a thousand times now, but when I have it out to set it up for a 12v hall, Ill check it all again.


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

, I have it out, and c30 and c12 are not installed, d1 and d2 are jumpered. 
I am trying to find information about running the hall sesor with 12v, and Im getting a bit comfused... the signal that comes OUT of the hall sensor, is a short to ground right?(and then open, which is why the signal out has a pullup resistor on it) so do I need to change r12 to 1k and do all the other mods if I want to run the hall at 12v?
or can I just hook the halls + to 12v instead of 5 and leave the rest alone?


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## mk1vw (Oct 17, 2007)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

the way i understand it(in the 5v setup), the hall sender goes between 5v and ground and the 5v signal from the proto area flows through the opto isolator to trigger the cpu when the hall goes low(ground).
if anybody knows more about this, please add to it or correct me. i would like to know exactly how it works.
my setup is wired like this:
5V from the proto area to OptoIn
D1 and D2 jumpered, C30 and C12 removed, no jumpers
XG1 to TachSelect
note: XG1 is not grounded to XG2.
DIYautotune recommends to same setup but they put a 1K resistor on the 5V feed to OptoIn.
I'm not sure why that is done, but mine works without it. I guess R12 takes the full load on my setup. Probably smart to use the 1k resistor though.
Also, I don't have a pullup on the 5V line and it still works fine. YMMV.
I think JD was asking how your board was wired. If XG1 is connected to XG2 then i believe it is wired wrong.


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## Rocco_julie (Jul 12, 2006)

*Re: (mk1vw)*

Th pull up is there to allow greater current to flow, sharpen the rising edge and take the load off the driving circuit.


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (mk1vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk1vw* »_the way i understand it(in the 5v setup), the hall sender goes between 5v and ground and the 5v signal from the proto area flows through the opto isolator to trigger the cpu when the hall goes low(ground).
if anybody knows more about this, please add to it or correct me. i would like to know exactly how it works.
my setup is wired like this:
5V from the proto area to OptoIn
D1 and D2 jumpered, C30 and C12 removed, no jumpers
XG1 to TachSelect
note: XG1 is not grounded to XG2.
DIYautotune recommends to same setup but they put a 1K resistor on the 5V feed to OptoIn.
I'm not sure why that is done, but mine works without it. I guess R12 takes the full load on my setup. Probably smart to use the 1k resistor though.
Also, I don't have a pullup on the 5V line and it still works fine. YMMV.
I think JD was asking how your board was wired. If XG1 is connected to XG2 then i believe it is wired wrong.


yeah, that is not quite the way mine is set up. xg1 is jumpered to xg2, tsel to optoout, tachselect to optoin, igbtin to js10. 
nothing connected to my proto area anywhere.
I dont know why I have it set this way, because I cant find the section of the instructiosn tyhat told me to do it this way.








So now I am sitting down to go over my config yet again...


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

okay I might have found where I got my jumper configuration scheme from.
it was on the DIYautotune page, under "how to megasquirt your watercooled vw"
_one thing tho, I am not using the bosche 139 module, im using direct coil control with the bip373 in thew ms ecu._

_Quote, originally posted by *diyautotune* »_
Using the MegaSquirt-II PCBv3 with the Bosch 139 ignition module 
MegaSquirt-II PCBv3.0 Mods Required: 
•Build the Hall effect input conditioner circuit, as described in Step 50A of the MegaManual. All our preassembled MegaSquirts with the V3.0 board come with this circuit installed.
•Jumper TachSelect to OptoIn.
•Jumper TSEL to OptoOut.
•Jumper XG1 to XG2.
•You'll need a 1K pull-up resistor from the 5 volts in the proto area to TachSelect.
•Jumper JS10 to IGBTIN.
•Install a BIP373 or TIP120 in the Q16 slot, using a mica insulator.
•Jumper IGBTOUT to IGN.
•Add a 1K pull-up to 5 volts by connecting a 1K resistor from the IGBTOUT-IGN jumper to a 5 volt supply from the proto area.
That's it!


I dont have any pull up resistors on the baord either. I have a pull up resistor on my relay board between tach and vref...
I'm gonna get back to sewing my seats.. Ill wait till I get some responses before I go right in and make changes...
Also, according to the itmbos technotes on the subject... 
http://www.vintagewatercooleds...butor/


_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 10:27 AM 4-8-2010_


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## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_
Also, according to the timbos technotes on the subject... 
http://www.vintagewatercooleds...butor/


Timbo is one of those guys who's setup for "high to low" and it still somehow works.
Configuring MS for "low to high" for a water cooled VW is the "correct" way to set them up. IMO!








My MS is wired exactly to the directions on the link I provided, Hall sensor + is wired to the relay board fuel pump 12V power, and I have no pullup resistor. Works for me and the small number of MS setups I've sold.


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## mk1vw (Oct 17, 2007)

*Re: (J. Daniel)*

i have to agree with this.
my setup and the few others i have built are low to high and they run great.


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (mk1vw)*

so you are saying, that I should wire it like this?










_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 7:49 PM 4-8-2010_


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

mk1vw: your setup has 5v from the proto area to optoin, but the instructions i just posted say to run the wire from 5v to the top of c30... ahh, I get it now, since d1 and 2 are both jumpered, that makes your mount point and the instructions exactly the same.


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## mk1vw (Oct 17, 2007)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (mk1vw)*

the instructions I posted above show a cap in c12. but I you guys just said it should be empty... got any thoughts on that?

mk1vw, how are you powering your hall?
both of you:
what resistor do you have for r12? if you are powering it from the 12v fuel pump relay, does that mean you need the 1k resistor in r12?


_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 4:07 PM 4-8-2010_


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## mk1vw (Oct 17, 2007)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

megamanual says leave C12 out (step 50,a,viii). 
do you have C12 installed on your board? if so, cut it off and see how the car runs. otherwise just change jumper wires to hall low/high.
i am curious to know which mod if any, will solve your problem. (assuming C12 is installed).
i don't run a TPS so i used the TPS vref wire to power the hall.
i am using the original 390ohm for R12, even though it looks like they recommend upping it to 470. i missed that step. fortunately it didn't hurt anything. i am at 5v, so maybe that helps.



_Modified by mk1vw at 1:16 PM 4-8-2010_


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re:  (JonnyPhenomenon)*

first, c12 is empty. has been all along, but the picutre I linked to previously shows it installed so I was confused. regardless, it continues to remain absent.
I followed the rest of the instructions given, went out and plugged it in and the car wont start at all now. no fire..








to go over my config again: 
I have a low to high 16v distributor.
I am powering it with 5v from the vref line off my TPS. 
I have a 470 ohm resistor in R12. 
I have no jumper between xg1 and 2.
I have a jumper wire from proto 5v to the top of c30.
I have another jumper wire between TachSelect and XG1
OptoOut is jumpered to tsel.
when I hooked it up to the car and turned the key, it cranked normally, and I got an rpm signal in megatune. but it wouldnt fire...


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## mk1vw (Oct 17, 2007)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

well that circuit is probably ok if you have a tach signal.
you have JS10 to IgbtIn and IgbtOut to IGN, right?
did you say you had a pullup for the hall signal wire? if not, add one.


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (mk1vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk1vw* »_well that circuit is probably ok if you have a tach signal.
you have JS10 to IgbtIn and IgbtOut to IGN, right?
did you say you had a pullup for the hall signal wire? if not, add one.


this is exactly how it is hooked up. unless one of my jumpers fell off, which is possible. Ill open it up again when I get home. 
do I have to make any changes in megasquirt now that Ive changed the wiring config on the ecu?


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## mk1vw (Oct 17, 2007)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

probably the ignition input capture.
i see options for rising edge, falling edge.


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

you know, my hall sensor isnt like any of the ones listed. it IS shorted to ground when the tooth is in front of the sensor, but when the the window is in front of the sensor, its just floating... it doesnt short to positive.


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## mk1vw (Oct 17, 2007)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

is the 16v hall different then the 8v?
why would vw change it up?


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (mk1vw)*

I do belive they are different. dont know why.. - but I could be wrong..


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

OK. I am stumped. I did the mods to the board as suggested, and I understand why they should be one.
the distributor I am using has a hall sensor that doesnt go 5v-ground-5v-ground, instead it goes ground-open-ground-open
so running 5v to opto in puts 5v to the anode side of the opto isolator, and then hooking xg1 to tachselect brings the opto isolators cathode out to the halls sensor output. so when the hall goes GROUND, the connection is complete and the opto isolators little internal LED can light up. when the hall goes OPEN the light goes out. 
Simple.
I disconnected the pullup resistor that I had connecting the signal to vref, because at this point that piece shouldnt be there. it would be like putting a resistor in place of c30. 

unfortunately, my car wont start.








it was starting good before, and now it doesnt. I did manage to get it to fire up for just a sec, and then it backfired and died. 
I downloaded the megasquirt tooth analizer to see if I was getting tach signal. I am getting a very nice crisp clean tach signal.
http://www.microsquirt.info/tachref.htm

now that I have the ecu wired up this way, what settings do I need to change in order to get it to run?

I killed my battery while trying to get it to go so now its sitting on a tiny little charger trying to get some life into it.


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

so now that I have given it some thought, I am thinking that my hall signal going to MS are now the opposite of what they used to be. 
before it used to go low to high, so I configured my base ignition options for it. but now even tho the hall still goes ground when the tooth is in front of the sensor, inputs to MS are swapped so the signal the ecu gets is now High.. 
thoughts?


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## mk1vw (Oct 17, 2007)

*Re: (JonnyPhenomenon)*

go in Megatune and see if you can adjust the ignition settings.
i doubt you'll hurt anything making some changes.
just keep track of what you change.


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## 88Jetta350 (May 4, 2007)

*FV-QR*

Wow, just read this post from start to finish, and it makes me really happy I have a carburetor on the Syncro, and CIS Basic on the Scirocco. This stuff makes my head hurt.
Anyway, good luck. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif you're a stronger man than I.


_Modified by 88Jetta350 at 1:39 PM 4-9-2010_


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (88Jetta350)*

I just got a secret weapon. my friend brandon just loaned me a digi-1 ecu from a rado. if I cant get MS to run the way I want it, I will just wire up the digi-1 box and be done with it.
Im not giving up yet tho..








I got it running today. same settings as yesterday, today it just decided to work.








so I brought it into the shop and tore it all apart. Im installing a new crank, arp rod bolts, main studs, main seals, clutch, and so on... 
worked on it from 8pm till 3:30 am... now im drinking a beer and going to bed.


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## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (88Jetta350)*


_Quote, originally posted by *88Jetta350* »_Wow, just read this post from start to finish, and it makes me really happy I have a carburetor on the Syncro, and CIS Basic on the Scirocco. This stuff makes my head hurt.
Anyway, good luck. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif you're a stronger man than I.

Posted back on page 4.

_Quote, originally posted by *J. Daniel* »_I'm a big fan of installing MS incrementally.
IMO better to make sure you're getting a tach input signal while the engine is running on the original fuel and ignition, then have MS drive a separate coil and set ignition timing while it's doing that, then convert ignition to MS while CIS is controlling fuel.
Then the ignition is done and you can go back to the original ignition if you're having insurmountable problems.
Then getting the car started is only getting the fuel in the ballpark, hard enough by itself, and not having to juggle ignition timing and troubleshoot potential problems.








If My Old Roc had done it this way, his car wouldn't have been parked for 4 months trying to work out the problems. Not singling you out Andy, just trying to make a point.

MS is a big chunk to bite off and MS2 is an even bigger chunk since there isn't much of an experience base out there. Just sayin'


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## 86_rocco (Apr 16, 2009)

Have you had any progress in the last three weeks getting things smoothed out?


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (86_rocco)*

yeah actually, a week before dustoff I swapped out the 2.0 9a crank with a 1.8 kr/pl crank which has a shorter stroke and lowered my compression (and displacement) considerably. the lower compression fixed my pinging issue.








I should explain something here. I didnt swap the crank with the intention of lower my compression. I swapped the crank because I was losing a ton of oil and I was sure the one that was in there was leaking around the main seals. Where I made the mistake however, was in chosing the crank out of my 1.8. you see, I was under the impression that the cranks were identical, and ti was only the bore that was different between the two engines. - I am sure I learned it corectly, but I just remembered it incorrectly.








regardless, my tune isnt quite right still but at least it doesnt ping or sputter. As soon as I can find some time I'm gonna swap in a proper 2.0 crank and get to work on the tune, but for now at least I'm mobile and not leaking any oil. (not counting power steering fluid))


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## 86_rocco (Apr 16, 2009)

well that sounds great. I have gathered about 90% of everything I need and then it is a couple weeks to a month of reading the tuning section of the MS manual and tearing into it. Glad it is coming together for ya finally.


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

FINALLY back from the dead!


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## 86_rocco (Apr 16, 2009)

JonnyPhenomenon said:


> FINALLY back from the dead!


you, the car, or the thread? 

Is it running well?


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## punchbug (Jul 15, 2000)

J. Daniel said:


> _Quote, originally posted by *JonnyPhenomenon* »_
> Also, according to the timbos technotes on the subject...
> http://www.vintagewatercooleds...butor/
> 
> ...


I'm just looking all this over and being amazed that I actually did this to my car. Whatver you advised me to do Dan, worked out very well. That car is super reliable for what a hacked splice it is! (By that, I mean, none of the parts are designed to be in there together....the MSnS is only some of the miraculous part of it) It's been so long that I forget what I did with the MS part of it!


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

86_rocco said:


> you, the car, or the thread?
> 
> Is it running well?


the thread... and no, it still runs like crap. sometimes it just decides to miss like crazy and sputter and have no guts, then it just comes out of it and runs fine. I did a log and I cant detect any weird signal loss or fluctuation, and I am too busy to give it the attention it deserves right now. Ill get to it eventually.


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## 86_rocco (Apr 16, 2009)

Well that is too bad, I am sure you will get it all sorted out. My install is about 1/2 say done. I haven't had as much time to work on it lately either but the next 2 evenings I have free so hopefully there will be progress. New obstacles present themselves every step of the way. 

With any luck I will be done installing and hopefully tuning by the weekend. GL to you and when you get time and still can't figure it out hopefully someone with a fresh set of eyes can check your logs out and see what they see.


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## LT1M21Stingray (Sep 14, 2006)

JonnyPhenomenon said:


> FINALLY back from the dead!



JonnyZombie!!! 



.


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## Shavedub (Feb 27, 2007)

*Mega yeah*

I love my 16 valve turbo with a megasquirt 2 and msd 6al. Big power yeah


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## Shavedub (Feb 27, 2007)

*I megasquirt on my 16 valve turbo.*


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

So Saturday I cracked open my head and checked the cams to see if I might have a sheared key on the cam sprockets. NOPE. but while I had them out, I replaced all my lifters. Put it all back together...

started first turn of the key. no frigging around. it runs!! Pretty damned good too!

now I can swap my proper crank back in and get back to work on tuning!

Note: if all of the trouble I was having was due to a bad lifter or two, then its no wonder it took me this long to figure it out. I still worry that while I was replacing the lifters that I may have just "fixed" something else entirely without realizing it....

Either way, I thought my troubles might be head related because the car allways started really really hard, and sometimes when I slowed down to pass through a toll or something, the car would sputter and run like crap when I tried to take off again. I could get it to "come out of it" by flooring it for a moment, then letting off the throttle and letting the car slow down a bit under engine brake, and then gradually getting back onto the throttle. this led me to believe that I might have a collapsed lifter or two... 

it is also possible that I may have just had a wiring fault. and that when the wire for one pair of injectors lost contact somewhere, the engine would be only running on two pistons. but this doesnt explain why it ALLWAYS started really hard... so I dont know.

What I DO know is, Ive started my car about 50 times since saturday, and it fires right up every single time!!


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## crazyaboutrocs (Nov 23, 2005)

Sucks never really knowing what fixed something, but sure is great when it is fixed! :thumbup:


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

crazyaboutrocs said:


> Sucks never really knowing what fixed something, but sure is great when it is fixed! :thumbup:


yeah no kidding!

OK, so here is my Latest MSQ file. this fires right up in the rocco, and after 10 seconds or so I can roll right out of the garage without stalling. Its a mess really, because of all the things we were trying to get it to run at all. 

BUT IT LIVES!!!!

http://www.angrymods.com/projects/megasquirt/settings/Lifters_done_it_runs_n_starts_good.msq


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## austin neuschafer (Apr 26, 2002)

where did you place the ecu??? I wanted to put mine on the interior side of he passenger firewall, but didn't look like enough room. I don't want anyone to see MY ecu:what:


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

I installed my ecu and relay board just above my fuse box. sort of below, and to the left of the instrument cluster. its a really tight fit, but its in there. 

in order to holt it in place I havre a sheet of plexiglass that I just tucked in between the fuse box and the ecu. if I didnt have a relay board it would fit way better.


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## dirtbaggg (Jul 6, 2011)

so what did this ms setup cost you all together;


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

I dont know... maybe 1500? thats just a guess... could have been a lot less than that. but it was so long ago.


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## Road Boss (Jul 16, 2004)

Hey Jonny what distributor did you use with megasquirt?


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

Stock one buddy!


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## petethepug (May 25, 2001)

You've been a busy man Jon. I did some late night searching and found your thread about six months ago. It got me to brave replacing all the rotting fuel lines w/ ss & and -AN lines on my '90 G60 (- AN Fuel lines). Thanks for posting all the info and pics. 

ps: Glad to see your little one is doing better!


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

thanks Pete. I havent even pulled my rocco out of storage yet this summer, bvut when I do I have a few more tricks up my sleeve. I think I have figured out why I have so much trouble with it running, (clogged cat) and I have a solution for the wimpy hatch struts that I want to post as well. 

all in good time


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

hey johnny. I used to be on MVWS. Anyways. I just got my 9A 16v started up n MS. Are you still running this thing? I may need a ride in yours to compare at some point. Mine: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5872174-Still_a_G-s-last-attempt-at-Corrado-ownership


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

Dude, my car is running great now. If you haven't given up completely I'm sure I could help get it running right!

I actually got my newly assembled engine started with loose spark plugs, the intake cam advanced 1 tooth, and only 2 cylinders firing. Now that I got those mistakes corrected, I'm much more familiar about what it takes to do it right.


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## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

you know, I thought I had it fixed but it still plagues me with issues. I literally parked it for two whole years and I am just getting around to looking at it again. I think my megasquirt ECU is fried and I am right now working on swapping in a digifant 1 ecu. lol. just working on sorting out the wiring for it. 

I would love to check out your msq files and whatnot. what did you end up going with? ms1,2 board? etc


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

I have MS2-extra. V3 board. 2.886 code. Right now I'm tuning PID closed loop idle. It's a must have with these Bosch pwm valves. Works better than expected. I can send you my file. Just message me your email. Oh and $60 for tunerstudio is the best money spent so far.


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## mk1vw (Oct 17, 2007)

I'll jump in and second the registered TS. 
The VE analyzer live is incredible. 
best money you can spend for tuning.


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## Rannoch (Mar 19, 2008)

JonnyPhenomenon said:


> you know, I thought I had it fixed but it still plagues me with issues. I literally parked it for two whole years and I am just getting around to looking at it again. I think my megasquirt ECU is fried and I am right now working on swapping in a digifant 1 ecu. lol. just working on sorting out the wiring for it.
> 
> I would love to check out your msq files and whatnot. what did you end up going with? ms1,2 board? etc


 I did that! (Well, only about 1 year.) 
Finally got it running smoothly after rereading the entire MS1/Extra tuning manual while going through my tune.


----------

