# 2.5 Turbo + Auto: My experience



## Tbugsy (Nov 11, 2007)

Let me be clear from the start: I'm not interested in bashing anyone or anything so please don't bring that to this thread either. I simply want to share my experience running the C2 Stage 2 kit on my Tiptronic Rabbit.

I purchased the kit late Winter 09 and had it installed by Grossman Tuning, a shop local to C2 which works with them often. The kit transformed the car but already the transmission couldn't hold the new power. 

Here is a video of 1st gear. (ignore my bumbling voice). As you can see, I had about 37k on the clock then. I sent this to C2 at the time. 



I wish I had more videos of more gears but the "slipping" continued through the 3rd-4th gear shift. That was just after install. Over the next year, about 10k miles, the transmission melted. First, it showed up as more slipping, earlier on and with less power applied. Even in Tip mode, shifting at 3.5k or higher with any kind of power became impossible. 

*Why didn't I fix this? 1) I wasn't sure how to proceed. 2) I started a transatlantic relationship and spent more time in Berlin. 3) I had to take a medical leave from my job so my financial situation changed drastically. 

Around 45k, the car wasn't drivable. I'm an idiot for pushing it that far but it's my DD and was too embarrassed to borrow money.

Finally got some money together and installed a new transmission: this one came from an 09 with 9k miles on it. I posted about these issues then, wondering if I should uninstall and sell the turbo kit. Guys advised me to see if the trans slipped. 

It does. 

First through 3rd. WOT. 

[video]http://flic.kr/p/95oDQG[/video]

3rd gear: WOT: You can see the later gears hold and shift better. But it was the same with the first transmission, before everything slowly melted and no gear could hold. 

[video]http://flic.kr/p/95kzMP[/video]

I drive the car like a grandma and stay out of boost. I took these videos to post here and can take more if a good reason needs it. 

Anyway, Chris Collier of C2 and I talked about these issues. He was willing to work with me but cautioned that they could only do so much with software. Regardless, the car needed to go down for testing and I couldn't really do that since, as I said, my car is a DD. I also couldn't afford to ship the car down there after getting the new transmission.

*This is MY experience. There are at least two other auto-rabbits out there working well. One is ENRGZR, who I think is looking to get more power. The second is Darth Bunny, who was C2's test car for their Stage 3 kit. Both, as far as I know, are doing fine.

*However, I would not recommend any Auto - Tiptronic 2.5 owners to go turbo. I plan to uninstall and sell the kit soon, so keep an eye out. Just make sure you drive a manual. 

*This is the first car I modded so I made a lot of mistakes. Going turbo is one of them but I'm not blaming anyone for my idiocy. I am, however, hoping that others can learn from my experience.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

instead of unistalling and selling, why not just buy a torque converter??


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## Tbugsy (Nov 11, 2007)

I've considered it but I don't have any assurance that a torque convertor will solve the problem. And, at this point, I'd rather just move on to bigger and better things in life.


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## jettafan[atic] (Dec 2, 2008)

Any way to get clutch packs that are rated for higher power levels installed? I know next to nothing about the auto trans for this engine so I wouldn't know where to look.


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## Tbugsy (Nov 11, 2007)

Level 10 does, but it's $4k to build a "bulletproof" transmission. My local shop had a customer do that for his 1.8T build and he just other parts break on him. At Grossman, I rode in an automatic 2.7T S4 with twin k04s; I'm not sure if he built his transmission but power + auto seems possible.


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## ENRGZR (Oct 11, 2006)

Yeah, mine is working fine. Sorry to hear about your luck. If anything happens to the trans, I will just swap the car to manual...


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## Tbugsy (Nov 11, 2007)

Thanks. Good luck with the build. :thumbup:


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

there are actually some options to the auto-turbo:

check level10.com and iptperformancetrans.com

i know of 09g handling more than 300 whp and a K04 turbo.


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## Tbugsy (Nov 11, 2007)

thygreyt said:


> there are actually some options to the auto-turbo:
> 
> check level10.com and iptperformancetrans.com
> 
> i know of 09g handling more than 300 whp and a K04 turbo.


As I said above, I looked into this and decided that it's not worth it for me.


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## BlackRabbit2point5 (Sep 6, 2007)

I blew the diff through my 5MT, car has been down for a year and a half first due to financial issues then the past 6 months waiting on parts and time to do work. I swapped an o2j with a quaife lsd and all should be well


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

Tbugsy said:


> As I said above, I looked into this and decided that it's not worth it for me.



oh.. ok... then thanks for sharing.


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## Tbugsy (Nov 11, 2007)

BlackRabbit2point5 said:


> I blew the diff through my 5MT, car has been down for a year and a half first due to financial issues then the past 6 months waiting on parts and time to do work. I swapped an o2j with a quaife lsd and all should be well


Glad to hear the car will be up and running again. I still remember your reply to a guy you just smoked who said 4 bangers suck. "Yea, that's why I drive a turbo 5." Awesome.


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## BlackRabbit2point5 (Sep 6, 2007)

also added an aem meth kit, MBC and BSH mounts though I'm stuck waiting on my boss to order them. Gonna be doing some data logging on the dyno at work to figure out how to get this all working perfect. Also added a Podi P2 setup with electric stepper motor color matched boost gauge and a VEI dual display gauge with Oil Pressure and AFR so I have all the major vitals in front of my face


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## Tbugsy (Nov 11, 2007)

Sounds awesome. Looking forward to the build. :thumbup:


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

hmm, i don't think its the kits issue in theis cause at all.... more like the trans was at fault. 
we have a normal customer with a stg2 kit on a tip 2.5 rabbit. it's his only car and he dailies it in NYC. no issues at all with the trans. none. 

these trans can handle it IF the trans is in good working condition. if its NOT and you push it and continue to drive it for MANY miles(as you posted) you WILL have issues. if a trans, ANY trans slips while shifting, DON"T push it more, FIX it. auto or manual. once things start to slip, repair it! it won't fix itself. and removing the turbo won't fix the shifting either. your trans will slip anyways. 

turboing a tip car is very possible but as in all upgrades, the more you push it the more you must build it. i wouldn't be scare to turbo another tip car if the power lower was reasonable, such at the stg2/3 kit. after that i'd say the trans needs to be built.


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## Tbugsy (Nov 11, 2007)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> hmm, i don't think its the kits issue in theis cause at all.... more like the trans was at fault.
> we have a normal customer with a stg2 kit on a tip 2.5 rabbit. it's his only car and he dailies it in NYC. no issues at all with the trans. none.
> 
> these trans can handle it IF the trans is in good working condition. if its NOT and you push it and continue to drive it for MANY miles(as you posted) you WILL have issues. if a trans, ANY trans slips while shifting, DON"T push it more, FIX it. auto or manual. once things start to slip, repair it! it won't fix itself. and removing the turbo won't fix the shifting either. your trans will slip anyways.
> ...


 With all due respect, this is a condescending reply and unnecessary given that I explained every issue you raise. 

1) I didn't blame the kit or anything else because I have no expertise to do so. 

2) The first transmission wasn't slipping before going turbo and immediately (first drive) started slipping afterwards. The second transmission only had 9k miles on it. That doesn't mean it was in perfect working order but I worked with a reputable shop. The video shows what the trans does now. 

3) I realize that running a slipping trans is stupid. As I explained, a lot had changed since the trans really started acting up and I didn't / couldn't make the fix happen. Also, when I posted the initial video and asked for advice, people suggested a TQ convertor (which I couldn't afford at the time) and some even said that a little slipping is inevitable. 

Regardless, I seem to be the only one experiencing these problems. Based on that personal experience, I wouldn't recommend 2.5 tip owners to go turbo. Luckily, they're free to make their own choices.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

ok, understand. 

so, if you are having issues with your car, yet everyone else so far is doing fine with it....do you see any issues that have been brought up with just your car?


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## Tbugsy (Nov 11, 2007)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> ....do you see any issues that have been brought up with just your car?


 I don't quite understand your question. If you are asking if I had any mechanical issues with the car before going turbo, the answer is no. I ran an intake and catback with a GIAC tune (mostly for better milage) and didn't have any problems.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

guess i'm asking. why yours and not others? could you find a reason?


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## Tbugsy (Nov 11, 2007)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> guess i'm asking. why yours and not others? could you find a reason?


 I'm not sure why mine responded this way. Unfortunately, I don't have the funds or expertise to take it apart and find out.


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## Zurique (Feb 15, 2008)

Hey bud, we understand your point of view. However, mods are not risk free and if this was your DD than you made a big mistake going turbo. Thanks for sharing your story and don't worry, life just gets better


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

DD and turbos are 100% fine. no reason to say that at all. 

perfect example is "dr. hermie" he has been C2 turbo'd in his mk5 that we did 3 years ago now, its his ONLY car and he has over 40K on the turbo kit! and 60K on the car. rain, sun, snow, floods etc....he drives it everywhere! only one issue the whole time- wastegate gasket cracked and leaked....10 min fix and $2 part. C2 turbo kits are VERY daily drivable.....


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## Zurique (Feb 15, 2008)

> nothing-leaves-stock
> DD and turbos are 100% fine. no reason to say that at all.


 Really! Then tell that to Tbugsy who keeps calling himself an idiot over and over for doing so.


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## ENRGZR (Oct 11, 2006)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> DD and turbos are 100% fine. no reason to say that at all.
> 
> perfect example is "dr. hermie" he has been C2 turbo'd in his mk5 that we did 3 years ago now, its his ONLY car and he has over 40K on the turbo kit! and 60K on the car. rain, sun, snow, floods etc....he drives it everywhere! only one issue the whole time- wastegate gasket cracked and leaked....10 min fix and $2 part. C2 turbo kits are VERY daily drivable.....


 Yes, I daily drive mine 6 months out of the year, as it is my winter daily. In the summer I daily my MK2 project and track the rabbit. This week temps are in the 40's. 2 weeks ago, -20 or so. I love this car and can't wait for dry pavement again.


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## Zurique (Feb 15, 2008)

> Yes, I daily drive mine 6 months out of the year, as it is my winter daily. In the summer I daily my MK2 project and track the rabbit. This week temps are in the 40's. 2 weeks ago, -20 or so. I love this car and can't wait for dry pavement again.


 Good to hear that!


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

so if i say it its wrong but he says it and its good? haa funny. 

we've done 40+ C2 tuned turbo cars and last year this time we were the top seller for C2 flashes...so, i'll stick to what i said. C2 turbo kits can and do great with daily driving.


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## Tbugsy (Nov 11, 2007)

Zurique said:


> Really! Then tell that to Tbugsy who keeps calling himself an idiot over and over for doing so.


 
I've learned that it's better to have another car handy if you're going to do heavy modding, especially engine stuff. Others can disagree, but that's my conclusion. 

That said, I'm not interested in an argument or, more likely, a vortex pissing match. There are plenty of success stories for C2, NLS and others. My car wasn't one of them, unfortunately, and I put this out there for future Tip owners who may be considering going turbo. My experience may be abnormal, but it's worth noting that such things can happen. That's it.


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## TeamZleep (Aug 28, 2007)

It definitely sucks in your case dude, big time. My C2 car is my DD, and only car. I figure I don't abuse the car, and I'm pretty mechanically inclined, so I'll be fine. I've always modded my daily's heavily though. 5k on it so far, I'm still grinning ear to ear. 

I'm stoked to read about "dr. hermie's" 3 years of road reliability! I'm looking forward to many, many happy boosted miles!:beer:


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## Tbugsy (Nov 11, 2007)

Fantastic man. I wish you the best going forward :thumbup:


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## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

Tbugsy said:


> I've considered it but I don't have any assurance that a torque convertor will solve the problem. And, at this point, I'd rather just move on to bigger and better things in life.


 First let me say sorry you relationship with your car has soured a bit my friend. I can't say what is causing it because I'm just sitting at my comp and cant actually see the car but let me offer something that may do the trick. My auto upshifts just fine and the car is making around 290whp right now on only 10psi of boost. I havent heard of any other Tips slipping like this. The first Tip to be pushing 260whp-270whp I believe was Darth_Bunny and he didnt complain. 

To my knowledge I am the sole auto who has changed their torque convertor. I approached Level 10 Performance since our tranny is listed on their website for transmissions they service but they were cautious about how serious I was since, even though it was listed, NO ONE had ever asked for them to build a torque convertor. I had to send mine to them to look at and it took about 2-3 weeks before I received a new one in return. Result? It didnt work. Level 10 said what they did was send an upgraded torque convertor meant for the 1.8T Tiptronic 5-speed that they typically use and was modified to what they thought would fit this car since the 2 were so similar. I cant remember if it was that it was too big or if it didnt actually work at all. It was 2 years ago now that this happened. All work was performed by Fifteen52. 

We sent it back and they instead made a torque convertor for my car from scratch that used a larger internal assembly from a larger torque convertor so that it would have greater clamping force but they got it to fit in a small enough housing so that it would fit my car. I dont know how they did it but it definitely holds the power this car is throwing down. Downshifts are still as agonizingly slow as stock but upshifts are lightning quick and feel very solid and positive. I havent had any gears slip. 

The service was $900-$1000 I believe. I tried to get them to do their full transmission service where they upgrade the valvebody and bunch of other stuff but couldnt get them to bite. Maybe they had enough trial and error with the torque convertor. Or maybe they didnt wanna go through the effort of modifying one transmission that had never been done before as a one-off just for me again for another grand. There wouldnt be enough profit in it for them. Oh well, thats life. But the car shifts fine even under boost and I only drive the car in Tiptronic mode (what other way is there?). You should look into it. I also noticed your car has a CEL. Maybe thats got something to do with it? 

Anyways, to validate my story here is a pic of the torque convertor before install:


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## Tbugsy (Nov 11, 2007)

Thanks for sharing the info _V-Dubber_. I appreciate it. 

I called Level10 when I installed the new trans because I considered doing a full build. The guy on the phone, John(?), said a convertor wouldn't be enough and that the clutch packs need upgrading as well. I realized I couldn't afford the full build, about 6k total with new trans and install. 

I'm glad the torque convertor worked out for you and makes me want to give it a shot. But I think I'm just going to cut my losses and move on.


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## Tbugsy (Nov 11, 2007)

Forgot to say: The CEL was there from the beginning (first day of install). It's looking for a third O2 sensor and, obviously, there isn't one. 

After the slipping, the codes said that the rev limit had been exceeded and, "Your warranty is void " Bastards put a smiley face in. :laugh:


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## ENRGZR (Oct 11, 2006)

there is a fix for the CEL now...


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## Tbugsy (Nov 11, 2007)

ENRGZR said:


> there is a fix for the CEL now...


 How recently? I sent the cpu over to C2 for an update when I changed the transmission. That was in September.


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## ENRGZR (Oct 11, 2006)

after that. Potter made a new flash around the end of October. Been CEL free for a few months now.


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## TeamZleep (Aug 28, 2007)

Potter just finished up on the code for mine too. I'll be mailing out my ECU next week hopefully. He's good people.:beer:


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## Tbugsy (Nov 11, 2007)

ENRGZR said:


> after that. Potter made a new flash around the end of October. Been CEL free for a few months now.


 Oh snap, Potter is the software guy? Super cool and super knowledgable dude. 

Glad to hear you're CEL free. :thumbup:


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## Brendon1098 (Oct 17, 2008)

I read through this and I feel for you but your "the trans didn't slip before this but did immediately after the turbo install" is a little out there. Sure some people have had luck, obviously you haven't but to expect all parts to function with nearly twice the amount of power as previous without any hitches is a little out there IMO. I read it as "well it must be the turbo companies fault because it wasnt like that before" well it's the issue of more torque. 

Maybe a tq converter will help, but the real thing you're experiencing is clutch pack slippage due to non adequate line pressure either from the pump or the valve body. If you increase line pressure in the trans or use more aggressive clutch and steels then it could hold the power. 

it's obvious you learned your lesson on modifying cars. I just don't want to see anyone get bashed like it was their fault. OP included. However you should know if its slipping to stop flooring it until the condition is corrected.


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## Turbonix (Oct 2, 2008)

So, i just wanted to say my story with my tiptronic rabbit. I put the C2 kit (stage 2) on my car in 2009, 
i had 13k miles on my car, i now have 45k miles on it and it is a DD. i run 8 psi, with 271 HP matching 
torque. i havent expierenced one bit of slipping to this date and time. 

my question i have for you is... how much boost are you running? do you use a bost controller? 

cuz if you are running more then 8 psi on the stage 2 kit you are going to be suffering from slipping 
issues as you said... "since the day you installed it" 

Id love to help you through this issue your having with your car... i'd hate to see you sell your perfectly 
made turbo kit because of little install issues that can make BIG problems for our touchy engines.


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## Tbugsy (Nov 11, 2007)

Brendon1098 said:


> I read through this and I feel for you but your "the trans didn't slip before this but did immediately after the turbo install" is a little out there. Sure some people have had luck, obviously you haven't but to expect all parts to function with nearly twice the amount of power as previous without any hitches is a little out there IMO. I read it as "well it must be the turbo companies fault because it wasnt like that before" well it's the issue of more torque.
> 
> Maybe a tq converter will help, but the real thing you're experiencing is clutch pack slippage due to non adequate line pressure either from the pump or the valve body. If you increase line pressure in the trans or use more aggressive clutch and steels then it could hold the power.
> 
> it's obvious you learned your lesson on modifying cars. I just don't want to see anyone get bashed like it was their fault. OP included. However you should know if its slipping to stop flooring it until the condition is corrected.


I don't know where to begin replying to you because everything you said has already been said and answered several times. Please re-read the thread. 





Turbonix said:


> So, i just wanted to say my story with my tiptronic rabbit. I put the C2 kit (stage 2) on my car in 2009,
> i had 13k miles on my car, i now have 45k miles on it and it is a DD. i run 8 psi, with 271 HP matching
> torque. i havent expierenced one bit of slipping to this date and time.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear of another good experience. :thumbup:

I thought Stage 2 ran 9psi? Anyway, my boost gauge reads 11psi but sits at about 2psi when the engine is off. So, I'm running 9psi. 

The install was done by C2, so there was nothing wrong there.


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## Turbonix (Oct 2, 2008)

Tbugsy, igot a pretty good idea and it could save you some money over all, you should buy level 10's torque converter, its only around 1,000 bucks. id hate to see you sell that kit, trust me youll thank me once the tranny works with the kit properly


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## Tbugsy (Nov 11, 2007)

Turbonix said:


> Tbugsy, igot a pretty good idea and it could save you some money over all, you should buy level 10's torque converter, its only around 1,000 bucks. id hate to see you sell that kit, trust me youll thank me once the tranny works with the kit properly


I've thought about it seriously, especially after V_Dubber offered his story as an example. But I know I have to move on, even if I don't want to. If two transmissions are failing there might be something else wrong. Getting the kit off is the first step in getting the car running properly.


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## nvsbandit (Oct 2, 2007)

hey bud its drew if you want help with an uninstall gimme a text later this week and ill pull some strings and see how far we can get you.


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