# Kinetics Stage 3 kit, a couple of questions.



## Afondo (Dec 13, 2008)

Im about to take the plunge and buy the Kinetics Stage 3 12v VR6 kit but before I order it I just wanted some opinions please.... 

Is the Rotomaster 60Trim T3/T4 that comes with the kit any good? Is it worth spending the $100 extra for the Precision turbo? 

Either way I should go with the .82 hot side right? 

Thanks 

Oliver


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## Afondo (Dec 13, 2008)

Nobody is using this kit or either of the turbos?


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## Bthornton10 (Apr 27, 2008)

I have a t67 Rotomaster and ran it for 2 year so far and its been holding up since day 1. I am selling out my turbo set-up/parts if you wanna save some $$$$ on parts. I can supply you with a turbo, turbo manifold, intercooler, oil lines, boost gauge and much much more. 

heres a link of what I have for sale. 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5175217-VR6-turbo-part-out.-Need-EVERY-thing-GONE!!!! 

Let me know.


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## dubbinmk2 (Jan 15, 2008)

if it's your daily car I wouldnt go with .82 but I did the $100 upgrade it makes me sleep good at night.


also these guys are great for parts http://www.ctsturbo.com/


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

Afondo said:


> Either way I should go with the .82 hot side right?


 correct


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## dubbinmk2 (Jan 15, 2008)

TBT-Syncro said:


> correct


 
correct me if i'm wrong but with that hot side wouldn't the boost kick in at higher RPM? if it's a daily driver dont you want the hot side to be lower? for boost to kick in sooner? sorry i'm still a noob to all this turbo stuff.... I know with a larger hot side there is less stress on the tranny because the torque doesnt hit as hard,,,,


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

it softens how fast the spool comes on, and makes it continue further in the powerband. the delay in spool is very small. but the tq spike is smaller. 

better traction 
easier on tranny parts 
better mileage 
faster and funner to drive


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

TBT-Syncro said:


> it softens how fast the spool comes on, and makes it continue further in the powerband. the delay in spool is very small. but the tq spike is smaller.
> 
> better traction
> easier on tranny parts
> ...


Agreed. Not sure how tbt's car is, but 2 of my buddies had nearly the same setup on their vr's. 50trims with .63 housings, its fun for about a week or two, but after that its annoying.

Like no matter where your foot is onthe throttle, a 3k rpm's that turbo kicks in and thats it.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

My Pro-MAF'd stage 3 i'm building using a 82 a/r T67









I can't wait.


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## dubbinmk2 (Jan 15, 2008)

:banghead:


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## Afondo (Dec 13, 2008)

OK sweet so Ill go ahead and pay the $100 extra for the Precision blower with the .82 hot side.

I dont want to be destroying the tranny all the time (I even boought a spare just in case!!!).

What about reliability for daily driving? I want this fairly bullet proof and dread the thought of having to rebuild the engine again. 

The whole engine was re-built about 12000 miles ago with forged pistons, reground crank, balanced, etc. and the whole head too. All sensors, water pumps/hoses/crack pipe/tstat & housing, oil pump, coil pack... everything NEW.

So I plan on purchasing the following at the same time to (try to) avoid any problems:

ARP head studs
Arp rod bolts 
All new bolts where necessary (Clutch, driveshafts...) 
new gaskets & seals (for any parts that get removed & re-fitted when installing turbo)
Walbro inline fuel pump
Stage 2 clutch kit
Pelequin diff
Glow Shift Wideband, oil pressure and boost gauges
Plenty of heat wrap 

What else should I be doing or have I missed to make this amount of boost? 

Add a Mocal 16 row cooler and thermostatic plate to that list...


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## Afondo (Dec 13, 2008)

Anybody? I really dont want to miss anything here....


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> My Pro-MAF'd stage 3 i'm building using a 82 a/r T67
> 
> 
> 
> ...


we all look forward to the updates.

:beer:


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

Here is some advice from someone who used both the .63 and the .82. As said above .82 is the way to go, it won't effect spool that much and will cut down on the torque spike when the power comes on. Best upgrade I have made so far. Plus it will allow you to make more power because it won't choke the motor in the higher revs and will lower EGT's at a given boost level.:thumbup:

Advice on the setup:
- I had problems with SPEC clutchs, take it for what its worth. Clutchnet 6 puck = gtg.
- Get a quality WB like PLX or AEM, it's worth the extra money.
- You need to get the rods resized per ARP when installing rod bolts.
- BFI stage 1 minimum for the engine mounts if you don't already have upgraded ones. I like the stage 1 mounts because they keep everything in place without harsh vibrations which derlin will give you. 
- Make sure all your sensors are good like the CTS, MAF and O2.


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## dubbinmk2 (Jan 15, 2008)

damn it and i was going to go with .82 and changed my mind at the last minute  ohh well just an excuse to upgrade later down the road....


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

It is worth the money for someone still using a Kinetics turbo. I didn't break 11's until I switched.


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

Some things I would have done different after finishing my Kinetic install...

I would eliminate the wastegate tube they send with the kit and go with a welded in and v-banded vibrant flex section. Frankly I would v-band anything you can on the DP..Hot side too. Just talk to Kinetic about it because they can do some or all of it as part of the kit for some extra dough. Well worth it. 

Stage 3 means you are getting their intercooler right? I do wish i went bigger and with shorter flow path...which might have meant a different supplier and would have meant figuring out the mounting and plumbing which I enjoy but not everyone wants that headache. That said the kinetic cooler is a good one and fits nicely. I would have gone a different way though if I knew what I know now.

Some object to the boost tube going under the motor but I don't mind since it cleans up the bay, and I am not so low that it matters. Nice and cool down there too. The 2" tube that goes underneath betweeen the motor and bell housing is about all that would fit there for a scraper, but 2 1/2" might go there and be safe if you aren't too low.

Everyone says 3" exhaust is required equipment. I already had a fairly new 2 1/2" so I left it for round one. Gonna order 3" any day.

A 16 row oil cooler will do the trick I am sure. I did the 19 and temps are under full control. I don't think it is any harder to fit the 19 versus the 16.

Are you going to run off the WG spring for now? If you v-band the WG like then this is ok, because changes aren't that bad. If you are going to lock it in on flanges then you might consider a boost controller. Electronic preferably.

As for engine mounts I have had the VF ones all around and would not do that again. IMHO urethane is a poor choice for mounts. No damping factor whatever. They are effectively a spring which is not the point. And they settle over time so I had to remove them and add washers inside to take up the slack. At least find a unit that can be tuned/tightened without removing the mount.


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## Afondo (Dec 13, 2008)

Are you sure I would need to re-size the rods to put the ARP bolts in? Im not questioning you (as such) but I read that its a case of 1 out 1 in. 
I am talking about the 2 bolts that clamp each rod to the bearings and crank. 

If changing them does mean messing around modifying things I would prefer not to do this mod, is it essential for the power I will be making?

I was looking at an innovate LC1 WB and either cyberdyne or glowshift oil & vacum/boost gauges will this be up to scratch?

CTS sensor? You mean crank position? or am I being Dumb... As far as the other sensors go Im not throwing any codes apart for the secondary O2 thats new but unplugged. should I do anything else to check them apart from a straight forward scan?

I was looking at a SPEC clutch because it comes free with the Kinetics kit (I think/hope). I was reading up on them and have read mixed reviews about them, what problems did you have and what stage clutch were you running?

Thanks


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## Afondo (Dec 13, 2008)

vergessen wir es said:


> I would eliminate the wastegate tube they send with the kit and go with a welded in and v-banded vibrant flex section.


Noted. I will take the kit as it comes but depending on how that pipe holds up I can always get that upgraded locally.



vergessen wir es said:


> Stage 3 means you are getting their intercooler right?


I hope so... Says intercooler, headspacer etc.. If it dont come with one I will be seriously pissed as the stage 2 has one!!



vergessen wir es said:


> Everyone says 3" exhaust is required equipment. I already had a fairly new 2 1/2" so I left it for round one.


Ive got a custom 2.5" exhaust without cat, if I need to go 3" I will. Id like to know what sort of improvements you get once you do change it. Saying that, if I am at risk of damaging the turbo running 2.5" Ill go 3" no problem.



vergessen wir es said:


> Are you going to run off the WG spring for now? If you are going to lock it in on flanges then you might consider a boost controller. Electronic preferably.


I was planning on running the WG sprung yes, what sort of problems could I have going this route? If I have to run a boost controller Id prefer manual, one less thing to mount inside the car 



vergessen wir es said:


> As for engine mounts I have had the VF ones all around and would not do that again.


I had heard that before and was also told it can be a bit harsh even with the stage 1. I was also told running the front engine mount in poly and leaving the others alone is a good balance between the 2 with good results. I have a spare set of mounts to play with and someone that works with this material that can make whatever I ask. A bit of trial and error and I will keep you posted on how it comes out.


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## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

Do something about the WG flex pipe that comes with the Kinetic kit. It will fall off over 15psi.
Throw the Goodyear oil return line in the garbage and get a braided one.
T3 0.82 is very much fun.
3"dp and back.
Good luck


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## Afondo (Dec 13, 2008)

Could I not just weld that flex pipe to make sure that dont happen?

The Goodyear oil return is the rubber one right? It does say the feed and RETURN lines are braided, either they have just changed it or they lie :sly: Either way, if it arrives with the rubber return its going in the bin!

3" exhaust it is then, thats gonna be loud.


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## vergessen wir es (May 12, 2010)

No the kinetic provided flex is spiral and too loose a fit. You would need to stick weld it.

The vibrant flex is $23. part number 4046

http://vibrantperformance.com/catal...787ce991&products_id=819&cPath=1022_1064_1113

Weld it to the DP and to the provided WG flange adapter.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

TBT-Syncro said:


> we all look forward to the updates.
> 
> :beer:


Thanks, i can't wait!  Took your advice BTW and went with a 9:1 headspacer.

I'm building mine with room to spare. I'll probably run fairly low boost for this setup. As long as i have the room to go big, i'm good. 350-400whp...i'll be happy. Just debating on weathr or not to get my exhaust housing ceramic coated or not. Trying to avoid wrapping the DP.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

People have swapped one for one on the rods, but ARP suggests that they get resized, take it for what it's worth.
I agree with what was said about the flex for the WG it will fall off, mine has a few times.
CTS= Coolant temp sensor, the blue one on your t stat housing right by the coil pack.
For the oil return, mount the turbo and measure the length you need. ATP will build a custom one for a good price.
http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchan...=CUSTOM-OIL-DRAIN-LINE&Category_Code=ATP-OIL1


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## Afondo (Dec 13, 2008)

I changed the CTS along with every other part when I did the re-build so I have a new one and the old one that both work so that should be OK.

Ill talk to the guy who built the block and see what he says about the ARP gear, thanks for the heads up:thumbup:

Ill certainly take a look at that flex pipe and what to do about it. 

I will get an upgraded oil return then.

I should be running an oil feed restrictor to the turbo right? what size will I need for the Precision T3/T4 .60ar?


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## therealgreco (Jan 13, 2005)

While on the topic, 
Whats the difference between a T3 with a .82 hotside to a T4 .82?

How can you compare?


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

therealgreco said:


> While on the topic,
> Whats the difference between a T3 with a .82 hotside to a T4 .82?
> 
> How can you compare?


they're quite different. the t4 is substantially larger.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> Thanks, i can't wait!  Took your advice BTW and went with a 9:1 headspacer.
> 
> I'm building mine with room to spare. I'll probably run fairly low boost for this setup. As long as i have the room to go big, i'm good. 350-400whp...i'll be happy. Just debating on weathr or not to get my exhaust housing ceramic coated or not. Trying to avoid wrapping the DP.


I went 9:1 as well.

Why avoid wrapping the DP?

Scuff, clean, VHT flameproof primer, VHT flameproof paint, bake in oven, wrap w/ DEI header wrap. Looks exactly as it did ~2years ago:beer:


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

therealgreco said:


> While on the topic,
> Whats the difference between a T3 with a .82 hotside to a T4 .82?
> 
> How can you compare?


Much different plus t3 stage 3 wheel and t4 p-trim wheel are also different. P-trim is larger and spools more linear/slower. I'm thinking maybe that's why my stock tranny has lasted this long.

I think t3.82 and t4.69 are ~ballpark w/ the t4 still spooling later/more linear


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Afondo said:


> I should be running an oil feed restrictor to the turbo right? what size will I need for the Precision T3/T4 .60ar?


I got the universal one from atp where you drill your own hole. Can't remember what size drill bit I used. 1/16th maybe? I'll try and find it. Anyway, no oil burning/issues.


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## BLSport (Dec 24, 2005)

Norwegian-VR6 said:


> Do something about the WG flex pipe that comes with the Kinetic kit. It will fall off over 15psi.





vergessen wir es said:


> No the kinetic provided flex is spiral and too loose a fit. You would need to stick weld it.


There's nothing wrong with the spiral wastegate flex pipe supplied in the Kinetic kit, you just have to wind it up or down in diameter as necessary to create a snug fit against the adapter tubes before you try to clamp it in place; if you don't do this, you'll just crush it when you tighten the clamps.

By all means, if you don't like the wastegate flex pipe supplied in the kit, ditch it and fab your own, but don't feel as though it's a must-do.


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