# SEAT Leon Cupra by ATK from Italy stage 3



## Andreinen (Nov 3, 2010)

I am an italian boy owner of a Seat Leon Cupra 2007.
My trainer Italian ATK mounted a stage 2 that consists in the installation:
Forge Twintake, 
Pop off Forge, 
Exhaust downpipe without catalyst and exhaust Supersprint, 
APR high pressure fuel pump, 
Intercooler Audi S3, 
Sachs Clutch, 
Transtad Limited slip Differential 40%, 
Bilstein shock absorbers and Eibach springs,
ECU remapping.
The turbo pressure is 1,9 bar peak and 1,6 bar stable (KKK K=04).
The result is something more than 350hp at 6300rpm.

Now we want to achieve a stage 3 fitting a hybrid turbo and the Forge twin-intercooler.
The mechanic wants to use the exhaust manifold and turbo snail K04 and replace the wheel bearings on a gt2876 and the Gt2876r compressor.
In this manner should not change the manifold twinscroll and the downpipe.
The result is to lose a little push in and buy a lot of power up.
The idea is to ook 400hp at about 7300rpm

What do you think about this hybrid turbo?


----------



## Andreinen (Nov 3, 2010)

Video turbo pressure in 4 gear:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBl6IcvQrtw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1kzycqLz-k&NR=1


----------



## Andreinen (Nov 3, 2010)

And photo:


----------



## BETOGLI (Jul 15, 2010)

Your car looks awesome! 

¡Molti complimenti!

¡Ciao!

Beto


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

I doubt you can fit ANYTHING from a gt2871 into a K04, but if he can make it, please post some pictures, i am sure we all want to see them...


----------



## CLestat (Nov 15, 2007)

Where buy the mounting vent pod?


----------



## Andreinen (Nov 3, 2010)

It is the use of the spiral of K04 and K04 twinscroll, which are one piece, back inside to put the wheel bearings of the gt2876r and the compressor of gt2876r.

You can see a photo of idea here where there is a gt2860 in a k04 manifold.


----------



## Andreinen (Nov 3, 2010)

Here another photo of a similar job.

My mechanic thinks is a more reliable and less loss of torque in lower than mount a Gt2871r
with the APR manifold.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

I don't really understand what jobs you are trying to show exactly...

For one, the K04 is NOT twin scroll so i don't understand what exactly you are trying to say.
Also, are you certain you can fit a GT2876R core inside the K04 ??

And as for the second picture, that is clearly NOT a K04, and that stands for BOTH the
cold as well as the hot side.The cold side difference is plain to see, and as for the hot side, if you compare the two pics you posted you can clearly see this is a different (although similar) exhaust manifold than the
OEM K04...

Please be a little more specific with what exactly is being done and HOW...


----------



## Andreinen (Nov 3, 2010)

I think that the pistures I sent are clear.

Were made by a customer of my mechanic and are mounted a gt2860r on a k04 twinscroll.

I don't undestand why you say that k04 manifold is not twinscroll.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

Andreinen said:


> I think that the pistures I sent are clear.
> 
> Were made by a customer of my mechanic and are mounted a gt2860r on a k04 twinscroll.
> 
> I don't undestand why you say that k04 manifold is not twinscroll.


Well for one, you said they used a *GT2876R* and not a *GT2860*...



Andreinen said:


> It is the use of the spiral of K04 and K04 twinscroll, which are one piece, back inside to put the wheel bearings of the gt2876r and the compressor of gt2876r.



There is a HUUUUUGE difference between the two...Also a K04 is very close to a GT2860, and
results would be in the 10 bhp range...IF it could be done....

On the other hand, the K04 once again ISN'T a twinscroll turbo...Do a search on what "twinscroll" actually is, and then also do a search in this forum...There was a post from AWE explaining and showing how and why the K04 is just a standard turbo...

Its good posting pictures, but its also better to know what exactly you are posting about.


----------



## Andreinen (Nov 3, 2010)

First I posted a picture of a Gt2860 in a k04 to get an idea of the work that will make my mechanic on a 2876.

Second the k04 manifold is tipe twinscroll.
If for you it is not directly call the VW or Audi or Seat, and say they do not understand anything about engines.

Third The tone of your responses somewhat bothers me to not respond to your post.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

Andreinen said:


> First I posted a picture of a Gt2860 in a k04 to get an idea of the work that will make my mechanic on a 2876.


Its not that simple unfortunately.The size of each turbo and the internals are different and not plug and play.The wheel sizes DON'T fit the K04 housing, and if you start changing housings, then it's not a hybrid anymore, and you might as well change to a new turbo...



> Second the k04 manifold is tipe twinscroll.
> If for you it is not directly call the VW or Audi or Seat, and say they do not understand anything about engines.


Really ??Hmmmm...Maybe you don't want to listen, or don't understand English....

Here you go....You can call Audi yourself if you want...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...93whp.....&p=43708896&viewfull=1#post43708896



> Third The tone of your responses somewhat bothers me to not respond to your post.


Well i also don't like posts without any data or proof.Posting two pictures of some turbos you have no idea about doesn't mean people that know should just sit back and let you post BS...

If your mechanic thinks he is a genius to modify the K04 to make more power without changing the whole turbo, then post more data and pics of the procedure (wheel sizes, turbo types, part numbers),
and then we can discuss.

Remember this is a forum, and anyone can reply to a post that he thinks is BAD INFORMATION.

You are welcome to prove me wrong....


----------



## Andreinen (Nov 3, 2010)

Here some photo of an ibrid k04 mith Gt2871r.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

Andreinen said:


> Here some photo of an ibrid k04 mith Gt2871r.


Right...

So where do you see the "K04 hybrid" in this ?

The exhaust side (manifold ) is obviously NOT a K04 one anymore, and so is the compressor side...obviously....

And as for the internals, well to be able to make the extra power, i am also willing to bet those aren't K04 ...ANYTHING either.

I believe you don't understand the term "hybrid" well enough.

This is a completely different turbo. :facepalm:


----------



## Andreinen (Nov 3, 2010)

GolfRS said:


> Right...
> 
> So where do you see the "K04 hybrid" in this ?
> 
> ...




Sorry but why you keep on talking without knowing anything?

The exhaust side is take from a K04, while the compressor is a Garrett gt2871.

I think you can see that the exhaust manifold is the same than the k04.

The turbine shaft instead is take from a 2876.

With this change should not change the downpipe, nothing.

To make the change enough to fit the new turbo in place of the K04 without changing anything


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

Andreinen said:


> Sorry but why you keep on talking without knowing anything?
> 
> The exhaust side is take from a K04, while the compressor is a Garrett gt2871.
> 
> ...


It seems you are not only ignorant, you are also persistent...:banghead:

So here is the same picture you posted above but circled using different colors to let you understand
better.Just like a little child's book....










So what do we have here... ?

At red circle the difference between the two exhaust manifolds is EYE POPPING...
There is such a HUGE difference in A/R that it almost looks monstrous.
I can't even imagine how in your eyes this is _"The exhaust side is take from a K04.."
_Your untrained eye sees these two as being "from a K04" ?
What K04 is that exactly...?Would you care to share the manufacturer code with the rest of us ?
Fail No.1....

At the blue circle its again obvious the CORE is different.If the core is different, the idea of a...
"hybrid" goes to the garbage..A hybrid turbo is a turbo that is modified, but still maintains the main
characteristics of the turbo modified.So far we have a different exhaust side, and a different CORE...
Fail No.2....

Moving on, as you sat the compressor side is not..."from", but actually "A" GT2871 along of course with the core that goes with it.Once again, hybridization of a turbo has to do with modifying it's parts (possibly machining) to accept new bigger internals.Changing the whole compressor side is NOT
making a hybrid turbo, since none of the other parts are still OEM.
Fail No.3...

So to end this...No my technically challenged friend.THIS is not a hybrid turbo, not a hybrid K04,
in fact, NOT A K04 ANYTHING..What it is is a GT2871 turbo matted to a "K04 style" design exhaust manifold...Nothing more, nothing less.

And to be honest, if you (or who ever put together this.."concoction") feel the need to CLIP THE TURBINE WHEEL while ALREADY having a "huge" A/R, then something is wrong with this picture...

So next time, post pics that are nice to look at, but don't claim stuff you don't even understand.
And if you work for a tuner, i think you better start reading soon, or at least have your eye sight checked...

P.S.Btw, if you were looking for a "K04 style manifold" turbo mix, there was already one available by Dbilas.Do you think they also call it a "hybrid" ??











EDIT:Now that i've thought about it more, and since there aren't many manifolds out there,this
IS probably the Dbilas 2871 replacement manifold paired with a GT2871 cold side.

In any case making 400 bhp with a GT2871 is a MAJOR FAIL...Maybe you should check your software.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Andreinen,

Pretty cool setup. I'm in the camp of people who's always interested in learning about OEM and Borg Warner parts floating around out there I haven't seen before. 

The hot side around the turbine wheel looks different compared to a normal K04 found on the S3 and TTS. Do you have any more photos of it? How bout photos of the top of the manifold and can you make out any of the numbers on it? Maybe you got your hands on an early preproduction or limited production motorsport K04. 

Also do you have any photos of it disassembled?

Thanks!

-Arin


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Andreinen,
> 
> Pretty cool setup. I'm in the camp of people who's always interested in learning about OEM and Borg Warner parts floating around out there I haven't seen before.
> 
> ...


Arin, you guys have the technology.

Why not make a manifold for the K04 ?

There is NO WAY this is an OEM manifold of ANY type of factory K04.

Its just an aftermarket one, and this is just a mix of parts trying to make a "hybrid" turbo.

But yeah as i said above i'm with you.If you are going to post pics,
why not share the knowledge for other to benefit.

So please could the OP post the part numbers for that factory K04 manifold ?

Oh and sizes would be nice (like compressor/turbine).


----------



## Andreinen (Nov 3, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Andreinen,
> 
> Pretty cool setup. I'm in the camp of people who's always interested in learning about OEM and Borg Warner parts floating around out there I haven't seen before.
> 
> ...



I was asked by my trainer Italian ATK this hybrid turbo exhaust manifold that uses a K04 (one in the photo is of an S3).

I think you can see that the exhaust manifold is the same of a k04.

ATK start from a normal k04, you can see one near the new turbo.

The lathe works the hot side of turbo to enter the impeller of a 2876.

The compressor is take from a 2871.

Finaly we don't have to change the downpipe or other.

This is exactly what is done.

The result is about 390cv.

The boy of this S3 have a normal S3 intercooler, and I know that he goes to change with a better one.


----------



## Andreinen (Nov 3, 2010)

Other photo:


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

Andreinen said:


> Other photo:


That's all nice but none of the pics show the part number of the exhaust manifold, which
is what Arin asked for.

You yourself should be able to see this is NOT an OEM S3 exhaust manifold, and we are all
curious as to what manifold it actually is..

Why not ask your tuner.I'm pretty sure he already knows this is not a factory manifold, so
why not tell us what it is.Unless he doesn't want to....

And once again machining the exhaust housing to fit a larger turbine AND clipping the
turbine fins, is a MAJOR fail from the very beginning.Clipping is ONLY used as a cheap solution
to get some extra hp at the expense of reliability.If it were that simple, the turbines would come clipped from the factory.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

Well the OP isn't using the DBilas manifold...










Dave


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

crew219 said:


> Well the OP isn't using the DBilas manifold...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well this is the K03 replacement manifold...NOT the K04.

Also that manifold cannot be K04 since it doesn't mate to the OEM cold side.

Do you have any part number for that manifold Dave ?


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

GolfRS said:


> Well this is the K03 replacement manifold...NOT the K04.
> 
> Also that manifold cannot be K04 since it doesn't mate to the OEM cold side.
> 
> Do you have any part number for that manifold Dave ?


Well I think the one pictured above is for an aftermarket CHRA as it doesn't have the machined flange that OEM does.

PNs

04.110.001Td

turbo exhaust manifold VW 2,0 TFSI for standard turbo charger K04

619.99 (euro)
------

04.110.001Tc

turbo exhaust manifold VW 2,0 TFSI for standard turbo charger K03

619.99 (euro)
-------

04.110.001Ta

turbo exhaust manifold VW 2,0 TFSI group for big turbo charger with ball bearing GT28RS

760.00 (euro)
-------

04.110.001Tb

turbo exhaust manifold VW 2,0 TFSI group for big turbo charger with journal bearing

760.00 (euro)


I know Brian (ProjectA3) has a EVOms tuned 28RS with the Dbilas manifold. 

Personally, I don't see much of a benefit with one of these manifolds over what else is out there, esp given the rough casting. 

Dave


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

So all of a sudden all info stops...

What a surprise.

Another one of those advertising posts that just doesn't cut it when it comes to
revealing information that someone doesn't want published.

So OP ?? Still waiting on that OEM K04 exhaust manifold used in your "hybrid"

You took those pics, is it really that hard to take pics of the manifold part number ?

Riiiight....


----------



## Andreinen (Nov 3, 2010)

I think you suffer from severe mental illness.

Worldwide, there are also people who work and who have no time to be 50 km to get from your trainer to take a picture to post it to a jerk.

A tip, **** more and spend less time on the internet.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

Andreinen said:


> I think you suffer from severe mental illness.
> 
> Worldwide, there are also people who work and who have no time to be 50 km to get from your trainer to take a picture to post it to a jerk.
> 
> A tip, **** more and spend less time on the internet.


And i suggest you wank less and read more before posting bull**** on the Internet.

You were asked for the part number BEFORE you posted your last pics.

Or you could even pick up the phone and call your..."trainer" and ASK him for the part number.

So cut the crap and "tips".

You obviously have no clue.


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

I just had to. lol


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Ok
so update?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

Issam Abed said:


> Ok
> so update?


I wouldn't be expecting an update if i were you man.

You already know what is going on with the manifolds, we've already talked about it.

There are 3 ways for such a manifold to exist...

1)It's a super duper secret never released K04 variant that some unknown tuner happened to discover out of the blue...(highly unlikely, but even if it is, why would ANYONE give away such "privileged" information)

2)It's the Dbilas 28RS manifold that Dbilas sells as a package with his turbo kit, and you already know what that means (quite possible although Dbilas brands their manifolds and this doesn't have that branding)

3)It's some other company's custom made exhaust manifold that for certain reasons some doesn't want to be made public (i have a hint at what it may be, but since it's not commercially available, it's not even worth mentioning.....plus who know how reliable it is)

For the above 3 reasons i can tell you right now this thread will remain without further information.
As i said it's nice to advertise, but that means you will HAVE to reveal info that might be damaging to your sales and/or prices.It's all in the game.If some don't like it, they should just stick to local business and avoid international forums.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Well for sure it is not Dblias due to the differences in the casting but it certainly is OEM or OEM replica. All the casting parting lines are exact
Whatever the case turbofolds have no place in anything beyond KKK units.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

I'd really like to know what it's from. 

All I need are the numbers on the manifold. 

Post pix of the top of the manifold!


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

Both you guys are like wolves trying to get a piece of the action. :laugh:

I don't see how this is an OEM K04 manifold since its even lacking the V-band connection
to the OEM K04 core.

I'm pretty sure APR will be all over this IF it gets out...

Still don't know why they can't develop one....Arin ?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> Both you guys are like wolves trying to get a piece of the action. :laugh:
> 
> I don't see how this is an OEM K04 manifold since its even lacking the V-band connection
> to the OEM K04 core.
> ...


Be all over what? I just want to know what it is out of my own curiosity since it's something I've never seen. I have photo and information on every preproduction engine, manifold, turbo, intake manifold, injector, high pressure fuel pump, piston, rod, etc on my computer that I've collected over the years. It's part of the "I want to know everything" obsession. 

As for APR developing a K04 manifold.... why? That would be a major waste of time.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Be all over what? I just want to know what it is out of my own curiosity since it's something I've never seen. I have photo and information on every preproduction engine, manifold, turbo, intake manifold, injector, high pressure fuel pump, piston, rod, etc on my computer that I've collected over the years. It's part of the "I want to know everything" obsession.
> 
> As for APR developing a K04 manifold.... why? That would be a major waste of time.


Well...a 15-20 bhp gain might be possible on a K04 with a better manifold.

The stock manifold is really restrictive, and its ok for 265 bhp but the higher you go the
less it can produce.

But as i've said before that would interfere with your Stage III numbers so i understand
how it would be a waste of time to you (meaning APR).

Still, that doesn't mean there are no gains there.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> But as i've said before that would interfere with your Stage III numbers so i understand
> how it would be a waste of time to you (meaning APR).


It wouldn't interfere with stage 3 and no one cares if it would. The reason we would never make it is because it would be a waste of time.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> It wouldn't interfere with stage 3 and no one cares if it would. The reason we would never make it is because it would be a waste of time.


What is that supposed to mean exactly cause i don't understand it.

"Waste of time" cause no one would buy it as an aftermarket part even if it could make 20 bhp

or

"Waste of time" cause you guys would sell it so expensive that no one would buy it..

OR...

"Waste of time" cause it WON'T make 20 bhp.

Which of the above are you referring to ?


----------



## ghita.silviu (Oct 26, 2010)

GolfRS said:


> What is that supposed to mean exactly cause i don't understand it.
> 
> "Waste of time" cause no one would buy it as an aftermarket part even if it could make 20 bhp
> 
> ...


sorry for off topic, but why do you have such un agressive atitude man ?


''Waste of time" cause no one would buy it as an aftermarket part even if it could make 20 bhp''

you are talking about making HP like you are talking about buying apples...



"Waste of time" cause you guys would sell it so expensive that no one would buy it..

you will allways get what you pay for.


"Waste of time" cause it WON'T make 20 bhp

so now it`s NOT making 20 hp...

as a tip, be more relax, nobody wants your head.

cheers


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

ghita.silviu said:


> sorry for off topic, but why do you have such un agressive atitude man ?
> 
> 
> ''Waste of time" cause no one would buy it as an aftermarket part even if it could make 20 bhp''
> ...


And maybe you are on drugs and i'm messing with your tripping ?

Where exactly did you see me being aggressive ? I am just asking questions.Did you see me calling anyone any names ?Or maybe you can hear me shouting through your PC monitor...

It's not like i haven't spoken with Arin before and if he finds me "aggressive" he can say so himself.

Btw who made you "attitude officer" of the Vortex ?

As for your answers to my questions, forgive me if i don't find them..."informative".


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

For the record I do find you aggressive and a bit psychotic, especially on any thread that mentions "K 0 4".


----------



## 16 Valves of Fury (Jun 13, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> For the record I do find you aggressive and a bit psychotic, especially on any thread that mentions "K 0 4".


I've been following his (GolfRS) posts on Vortex and Golfmkv and I am humored by his rants and deliberate aggression towards other members. GolfRS, this ______ is your place and Arin def put you in it... just stop posting please, you are a embarrassing yourself and annoying everyone else with your worthless, negative retorts. Don't bother replying because simply put: NO ONE CARES!


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

16 Valves of Fury said:


> I've been following his (GolfRS) posts on Vortex and Golfmkv and I am humored by his rants and deliberate aggression towards other members. GolfRS, this ______ is your place and Arin def put you in it... just stop posting please, you are a embarrassing yourself and annoying everyone else with your worthless, negative retorts. Don't bother replying because simply put: NO ONE CARES!


I like your nickname dude.

Watch a lot of westerns do ya partner?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> For the record I do find you aggressive and a bit psychotic, especially on any thread that mentions "K 0 4".


I have to say i'm touched...

I didn't know you cared.... :heart:


----------



## Andreinen (Nov 3, 2010)

I think this is a forum full of educated people and with a little common sense.

For this reason the post of Golf rs**** for me will be completely unread and therefore invisible.

Having said this, Arin:
ATK, the firm that makes this type of turbine, has asked me to give my K04 for the construction of this kit.

The turbine of the photo is from a guy in my town that is making this change.

I confirm that he (ATK), which claims to use the exhaust manifold of a K04 to realize this turbo and a 2871 compressor.

If it were different I do not understand why my calls to give k04 for the construction of the turbo.

He is now working to achieve a twinscroll manifold for a gt3076r in inconel.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

Andreinen said:


> I think this is a forum full of educated people and with a little common sense.
> 
> For this reason the post of Golf rs**** for me will be completely unread and therefore invisible.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your kind words...

Why is it so hard for you to just post a picture or the part number of an exhaust manifold ?

If as you say it is just a K04, why not just post the damn part number and get it over with.

All the information you post sound like an advertisement of your tuner, something that is
not really of any interest.

Simply pick up the phone (since you are 50 km away as you say) and ASK the guy to READ
the numbers from the top of the manifold.

Is it really that HARD ?? Or you simply don't want to for some reason ?


----------



## ghita.silviu (Oct 26, 2010)

oky,

-so any one knows informations about the TURBINE MAP found on the stock turbo K04 ?

-and what is the stock A/R for the hot side ?


- simply by putting a bigger A/R you are only goind to move you POWER BAND to the right, and you will be able to make more power up top, BUT you also have to consider the COMPRESSOR MAP so you don`t choke your turbo, otherwise it will only flow just hot hot air...

- that`s why nobody use a GT3094 (for example), and it`s a rule that you have to match the COMPRESSOR with the right TURBINE.

btw. if you are so interested in changing the hot side, do you know how to read a TURBINE map ? 

* there are people who have reach the maximum potential found on the K04 COMPRESSOR without having to change the TURBINE housing.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

ghita.silviu said:


> oky,
> 
> -so any one knows informations about the TURBINE MAP found on the stock turbo K04 ?
> 
> ...


Actually simply putting a larger A/R hot side doesn't "move" the powerband.That's what cams can do.

Using a larger A/R you gain more HP up top but you lose a bit spooling time down low.

Depending on how small the factory A/R is, you are going to get bigger gains.

Changing the core isn't worth it to me.You can only do so much without risking the reliability of the OEM casings.But there are stuff you can do to make a few more HP.

I doubt there is any case of U.S. cars reaching the max potential of the K04.

Don't ask why.


----------



## ghita.silviu (Oct 26, 2010)

GolfRS said:


> Actually simply putting a larger A/R hot side doesn't "move" the powerband.That's what cams can do.
> 
> Using a larger A/R you gain more HP up top but you lose a bit spooling time down low.
> 
> ...


1. Actually simply putting a larger A/R hot side doesn't "move" the powerband.That's what cams can do.

i say ''move'' thinking that you will have more power UP top and adding a delay in the spooling time.


2.Using a larger A/R you gain more HP up top but you lose a bit spooling time down low.

- OK, but please read the HOLE sentence, what you have just sayd it ONLY applyes if there is more room for improvement in the COMPRESSOR MAP , if not, i have to say again, it will only flow just hot hot air.


3.Depending on how small the factory A/R is, you are going to get bigger gains.

- i have asked if anyone know it ?

4.Changing the core isn't worth it to me.You can only do so much without risking the reliability of the OEM casings.But there are stuff you can do to make a few more HP.

- i was talking about the TURBINE houseing, not about the CORE.

5. you still haven`t answer my question about the TURBINE MAP. thx


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

ghita.silviu said:


> 1. Actually simply putting a larger A/R hot side doesn't "move" the powerband.That's what cams can do.
> 
> i say ''move'' thinking that you will have more power UP top and adding a delay in the spooling time.
> 
> ...


The gains from changing the turbine housing have nothing to do with compressor or turbine maps.

The gains in this case come from reducing backpressure and restriction of exhaust gas flow, lowering EGT's and making the engine flow better.The same effect only more down the exhaust flow you get when installing a larger downpipe.

The change in spooling time is caused by the decrease in exhaust gas velocity which adds a delay in the turning if the turbine wheel.

To change the characteristic of the turbo you'd have to change the core/wheels.

There is indeed a whole chapter in the tuners handbook on compressor/turbine matching, but A/R change doesn't refer to it.

Unfortunately you can't be certain of any gains until you've tried it.


----------



## ghita.silviu (Oct 26, 2010)

1.The gains from changing the turbine housing have nothing to do with compressor or turbine maps.

- turbine housing and A/R have a huge impact on the TURBINE map..

2.The gains in this case come from reducing backpressure and restriction of exhaust gas flow, lowering EGT's and making the engine flow better.The same effect only more down the exhaust flow you get when installing a larger downpipe.

- this is the 3 time, you are sayng almost the same thing.

The change in spooling time is caused by the decrease in exhaust gas velocity which adds a delay in the turning if the turbine wheel.

To change the characteristic of the turbo you'd have to change the core/wheels.

There is indeed a whole chapter in the tuners handbook on compressor/turbine matching, but A/R change doesn't refer to it.

why don`t you see any 1.06 A/R on a GT2871R for example ?

Unfortunately you can't be certain of any gains until you've tried it.


if you want to debate on a subject stick to the subject.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

Well, that was entertaining.

Every forum needs a GolfRS. What fun would they be without him?

Also, its always fun to dream about the next big turbokit flavor of the month.

APR Stage 3's are selling well and work as advertised if anyone is interested.


----------



## Andreinen (Nov 3, 2010)

I buy Apr Stage 3 tomorrow morning!!

Why not put an importer in Italy?

The problem is to install the ECU program.

The nearest importer is in Swiss.

In Italy there are many tfsi that could be you're customers.


----------



## ghita.silviu (Oct 26, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Well, that was entertaining.
> 
> Every forum needs a GolfRS. What fun would they be without him?
> 
> ...


+5 :laugh:


----------



## ghita.silviu (Oct 26, 2010)

Andreinen said:


> I buy Apr Stage 3 tomorrow morning!!
> 
> Why not put an importer in Italy?
> 
> ...


very very good choise, you are not going to regret it (to make even a better job, buy also the APR IC, because in STAGE 3, it comes at a special price, and worth every penny )!


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

ghita.silviu said:


> very very good choise, you are not going to regret it (to make even a better job, buy also the APR IC, because in STAGE 3, it comes at a special price, and worth every penny )!


See now...If you are a little smart like me (yes i know even i can't believe it) , its not very hard to find out that...

YOU ARE AN *APR DEALER IN ROMANIA*...

Isn't that funny ?

So coming in the forums with just a nickname promoting APR products as an "individual" isn't very nice
is it ?
I really thought it was kinda weird that in an unrelated thread all of a sudden 3 APR representatives
show up.

And again the result is another happy APR stage III customer that is excited even before he has the kit
installed...These are some rough times we are going through...Gotta make some money...

Oh and the nearest dealer might be in Switzerland as you say, but Romania isn't that far away is it ?
Funny how it all comes into place...

See Keith ?Every forum DOES need a GolfRS to put things into...perspective...

P.S. Mr * ghita.silviu *... don't you think you should put a "banner advertiser" tag under your name ?
We wouldn't want people to think you simply happen to... "like" APR products....


----------



## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

:laugh: I still love this place


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

ghita.silviu is APR Romania? News to me! 

How's your custom build coming along?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Andreinen said:


> I buy Apr Stage 3 tomorrow morning!!
> 
> Why not put an importer in Italy?
> 
> ...


I'd love to sign up an APR dealer in your area. Do you have any high quality and highly recommended business who you feel would be fit for selling APR in your country?

BTW, you can always mail your ECU to us.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> ghita.silviu is APR Romania? News to me!
> 
> How's your custom build coming along?


LOL...Well that's what you get for missing morning briefing Arin.

Hope you guys tune better than you talk to each other...

At least i hope Keith knows or that would be the biggest fail ever....

Oh btw...all it took was a simple google search...for me that is.
For you it might be a bit harder i guess keeping track of who is a dealer and who not.
There is just so many of them...Who could keep track ??
Did i mention i'm an APR dealer too ?No ?ARE YOU SURE ??

Here you go man.You are welcome...

APR Tuning http://www.goAPR.eu
Ghita Silviu
tel: 0766.607.757
mail: [email protected]

http://94.60.137.163/showthread.php?t=1195


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> LOL...Well that's what you get for missing morning briefing Arin.
> 
> Hope you guys tune better than you talk to each other...
> 
> ...



Nice! Good to see he posts here. We have a vast dealer network and I don't keep track of everyones personal accounts nor do I waste time search for information on every new name I see popping up on vortex.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Nice! Good to see he posts here. We have a vast dealer network and I don't keep track of everyones personal accounts nor do I waste time search for information on every new name I see popping up on vortex.


Yeah...nice indeed !!! :thumbup:

You better sign up *Andreinen *now while you still remember him !!! :sly:

You never know what might happen tomorrow.... :facepalm:

In all honesty though, this is an all time low.And on top of that, you just see your dealer as a "name popping up on the Vortex..".

Sure sucks being one of those..."unknown dealers" of yours...

P.S. Don't know which is worse..You knowing just playing dumb..or you not knowing at all...


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

GolfRS said:


> Yeah...nice indeed !!! :thumbup:
> 
> You better sign up *Andreinen *now while you still remember him !!! :sly:
> 
> ...


Really? You expect us to know the vortex screennames of all 290+ APR retailers worldwide? Should we know the screennames of each employee too? That would be well over 1000 screennames we should memorize.

I mean, if you figured out that was Alex from APR Romania, good for you. We don't look up every single poster on vortex to make sure they are or are not an APR dealer.

Also, he didn't say anything that making him an APR importer could be construed as shady. He didn't pretend to be a nonaffiliated individual providing a review. He just said the Stage 3 kit was awesome and people should buy it. So?

I mean, really? This is what you want to attack us about?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

GolfRS,

I just got off the phone with one of our European dealers testing one of our new k04 setups. 568 bhp. New APR inconel equal length split runner manifold with APR CNC billet wheels and an APR wastegate . It's insane. 

We have no plans to sell it to you. 

-Arin


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Really? You expect us to know the vortex screennames of all 290+ APR retailers worldwide? Should we know the screennames of each employee too? That would be well over 1000 screennames we should memorize.
> 
> I mean, if you figured out that was Alex from APR Romania, good for you. We don't look up every single poster on vortex to make sure they are or are not an APR dealer.


Haha, you APR guys are all funny...You really crack me up.

So Keith, you don't know the nicknames of APR vortex members...Fair enough.I wouldn't expect you to.
But when one of those "nicknames" is the ACTUAL NAME of your dealer...oh well, i would EXPECT you
to know it.Unless you don't really care about your dealers, which would be on par with how you care about everything else...

So as i said a simple Google search for the name "ghita.silviu" tuned out the following results.

http://clubseat.eu/viewtopic.php?f=98&t=6062&p=175118

http://94.60.137.163/showthread.php?t=1195

http://my.opera.com/Dyabolyk666/about/

http://www.seatforum.ro/showthread.php?t=1236

http://vwforum.vwforum.ro/index.php?showuser=20519

http://www.skodatoys.ro/index.php?topic=71.0

...and the list goes on....

So i have no clue who Alex is, but at least i can search the web.
You guys don't even know your dealers FFS !!!


> Also, he didn't say anything that making him an APR importer could be construed as shady. He didn't pretend to be a nonaffiliated individual providing a review. He just said the Stage 3 kit was awesome and people should buy it. So?


LOL..So what would a "known" dealer have said instead ?

Buy the APR stage III kit and save the children in Africa ?

or

Buy the APR stage III kit or your old man gets it ?

As i said you people crack me up.Your marketing methods are years ahead...

Another google search also showed how the OP was having issues with his "supposedly hybrid" setup and was looking for a "replacement kit".He didn't come into this forum complaining about it though.
He came to show "hybrid" photos, and suddenly out of the blue the APR stage III kit comes up, and along with it the "CSI APR" team.So from "hey look at my local tuner hybrid kit" things turned to "the APR stage III kit is awesome" by an "unknown" APR undercover dealer...True Science fiction stuff...WOW...



> I mean, really? This is what you want to attack us about?


I'm not in the mood to attack anyone.I just don't like being taken for "a ride" by people that are
using the forums to make a sale.There are many reading these forums that just can't realize the
magnitude of manipulation that goes on in each and every thread in here.
You guys have simply made an art out of it.Unfortunately that doesn't mean everyone has to take it "bent over" (or some might say it...up the [email protected]@).


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> GolfRS,
> 
> I just *got off the phone with one of our European dealers* testing one of our new k04 setups. 568 bhp. New APR inconel equal length split runner manifold with APR CNC billet wheels and an APR wastegate . It's insane.
> 
> ...


I'll give you 50$ if you can remember his name ? What ya say ?



> We have no plans to sell it to you.


Yeah...i'm sorry too man.Need both my kidneys for now... 

But maybe you can use it to make more than 350 from a K04... :thumbup:


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

opcorn:


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

GolfRS said:


> Haha, you APR guys are all funny...You really crack me up.
> 
> So Keith, you don't know the nicknames of APR vortex members...Fair enough.I wouldn't expect you to.
> But when one of those "nicknames" is the ACTUAL NAME of your dealer...oh well, i would EXPECT you
> ...


ok. Thanks!

Alex is the American name of the owner of APR Romania. Since we have a Romanian speaking person on staff, I only talk to Alex when he comes to visit.

And again, since I don't google every vortex posters screenname, I didn't know he posted with that name on all of those other forums either.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> ok. Thanks!
> 
> Alex is the American name of the owner of APR Romania. Since we have a Romanian speaking person on staff, I only talk to Alex when he comes to visit.
> 
> And again, since I don't google every vortex posters screenname, I didn't know he posted with that name on all of those other forums either.


Can't help but wonder how many of your "anonymous" staff are roaming the forums giving their
"humble" opinions about how awesome APR products are.

This is why the forums are the worst place to "shop around". 

Nothing ever is what it seems...... :thumbdown:


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

And for those that are looking for true information about what is discussed above (and no i don't mean APR sale tactics), here are some of the past discussions about exhaust manifolds and the K04



> Originally Posted by *T62*
> 
> Reason probably being that, the OEM manifold for our vehicles look like the bore of a #2 pencil. (in the exhaust housing not primary)I've seen a lot of instances over the years where, we take the stock manifolds of turbo cars, thought to be for fast spool, all the characteristics are there. Short primaries, cast (the retain heat), Small runners, again to avoid heat loss through expansion. Small primaries also helps with maintaining velocity. ALL those things.
> Well... Ive seen changes in manifolds to allow for more flow, same compressors etc etc. Well, they spooled faster, and made more horse. Some reasons for the
> ...


http://forums.fourtitude.com/showth...ne-heard-of-the-dbilas-turbo-exhaust-manifold




> Originally Posted by *kwokA3T*
> _re: dbilas ex manifold
> 
> vag actively supports production class circuit racing and other forms of motorsports at corporate level
> ...


http://www.golfmk5.com/forums/showthread.php?p=574700


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

GolfRS said:


> Can't help but wonder how many of your "anonymous" staff are roaming the forums giving their
> "humble" opinions about how awesome APR products are.
> 
> This is why the forums are the worst place to "shop around".
> ...


His Romanian name is Ioan Petrina. He goes by Johnny since becoming an US citizen a couple of decades ago.

You can email him here: [email protected]

Johnny Petrina
APR, LLC
Director, Operations
4800 US HWY 280W
Opelika AL 36801
office: 334 502 5181
fax: 334 502 5180

I took his cell off his email signature as I'm sure he wouldn't appreciate me posting it in the public.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

And to help with your paranoia, here is a pic of his business card up against my monitor while it displays this thread so you know we didn't fake it.

I had to edit the pic in MS Paint to remove his cell number though.

Enjoy! This pic is for you.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> His Romanian name is Ioan Petrina. He goes by Johnny since becoming an US citizen a couple of decades ago.
> 
> You can email him here: [email protected]
> 
> ...


Who the hell is this guy and why are you posting this ?? :screwy:

Is the guy that posted earlier in this thread a member of APR Romania or not ?

Why on earth are you giving me some other guy's data ?? 

Do i look like i care who that guy is ?? You're weird Keith.

P.S. Man...Your middle finger is too small.......WTF ?? :what:


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

GolfRS said:


> Who the hell is this guy and why are you posting this ?? :screwy:
> 
> Is the guy that posted earlier in this thread a member of APR Romania or not ?
> 
> ...


I thought you didn't believe me when I said we have someone here that speaks Romanian.

People usually tell me I have sausage fingers.:beer:


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> I thought you didn't believe me when I said we have someone here that speaks Romanian.
> 
> People usually tell me I have sausage fingers.:beer:


Read the whole thread Keith... :facepalm:

I'm pretty sure it's quite possible to find someone that speaks Romanian btw...

Even for APR....


----------



## ghita.silviu (Oct 26, 2010)

holy jessus,

golfRS you have a big problem if you start google-ing people 

to be clear, i help Alex from Romania .


what i have sayed about the stage 3, was only the truth, i don`t have anything to win if the guy from italy buys an APR stage 3 from france (for example). so give a break with your paranoya.

if you can`t see any further than a k04, i feel sorry for you...


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

GolfRS said:


> Read the whole thread Keith... :facepalm:
> 
> I'm pretty sure it's quite possible to find someone that speaks Romanian btw...
> 
> Even for APR....


I did, its just hard to understand which person is sneaking up on you and is trying to get you from the way you relay things.

My bad. So, just to be clear, according to you, we lie about reviews of our products but not about the languages our staff speaks?


----------



## ghita.silviu (Oct 26, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> ghita.silviu is APR Romania? News to me!
> 
> How's your custom build coming along?


it`s up and running :d, i will create a topic for it. with more details


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

ghita.silviu said:


> holy jessus,
> 
> golfRS you have a big problem if you start google-ing people


Weird...That's what my doctor tells me too...!! :what:





> to be clear, i help Alex from Romania .
> 
> 
> what i have sayed about the stage 3, was only the truth, i don`t have anything to win if the guy from italy buys an APR stage 3 from france (for example). so give a break with your paranoya.
> ...


So you DO work for APR...When exactly were you going to mention this btw ?

Do you think it's proper for people working for advertising companies to post "anonymously"
about their "personal opinions" on their COMPANY'S PRODUCTS ?

How would it seem to you if i worked for a competitor and started saying crap about your stage III
kit using just a screen name ?Then i'm sure you (APR) would also find it unacceptable.
Or maybe it's allowed if all you say is good stuff ..right ?

There is a place for advertising in a "sponsored" forum, and that place has now moved to a subsection.
Over there people advertise using their true identities and professions....

Oh and btw...as for the K04...I hear Revo Romania has been having VERY GOOD results with their S3..
Have you seen it ?Once i'm done with my car i'm gonna look around for one of those Stage III cars of yours over here.I'm curious to see what the fuss is all about....


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> I did, its just hard to understand which person is sneaking up on you and is trying to get you from the way you relay things.
> 
> My bad. So, just to be clear, according to you, we lie about reviews of our products but not about the languages our staff speaks?


No Keith...Again you haven't understood anything.

My problem is i don't like people working for advertisers favorably commenting "anonymously" on their
company's products, and making people think its just an independent opinion.

I don't think you would have liked it either if someone did it to APR, favorably to his company, or
non favorably to yours...

As i said, read the thread.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

GolfRS said:


> No Keith...Again you haven't understood anything.
> 
> My problem is i don't like people working for advertisers favorably commenting "anonymously" on their
> company's products, and making people think its just an independent opinion.
> ...


I'm with you but in this circumstance I don't think anyone but you thinks it was intended or even reads like a staged independent endorsement.


----------



## ghita.silviu (Oct 26, 2010)

we`ve start the discusion from K04, when Andreinen SAYED HIMSELF WITHOUT me saying anything, i only stated my personall opion about APR stage 3, because i am also a APR CLIENT, and i have a APR stage 3, on my PERSONAL CAR, 

clear enought ??


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

this thread is useless without pics of turbos.


:sly:


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

ghita.silviu said:


> we`ve start the discusion from K04, when Andreinen SAYED HIMSELF WITHOUT me saying anything, i only stated my personall opion about APR stage 3, because i am also a APR CLIENT, and i have a APR stage 3, on my PERSONAL CAR,
> 
> clear enought ??


I'm sorry but you are "not allowed" to express "personal opinion" in a public forum
referring to a company you are working for.

If i was working for Dbilas (and was using DaveBilas as a nickname) would you accept
my manifold makes 30 bhp, if all of a sudden my name came up in the Dbilas staff roster
and i was simply "stating a personal opinion" ?

It's simply a matter of wrong or right advertising (if there is such a thing).

Don't do to others what you don't want others doing to you.


----------



## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

Golf has a point, but I dont think APR had anything to do with it, so much as a single individual who may or may not have had ulterior motives.


----------



## ghita.silviu (Oct 26, 2010)

so you are saying that i can`t express my personal experience with a product that i buyed ? 

sorry, i`am not going to discuss with you any more on any subject, unless you will be more calm and relax, and not soo bitening.

have a nice day.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

ghita.silviu said:


> so you are saying that i can`t express my personal experience with a product that i buyed ?
> 
> sorry, i`am not going to discuss with you any more on any subject, unless you will be more calm and relax, and not soo bitening.
> 
> have a nice day.


What i said is you cannot "baptize" what you say as a personal opinion by "hiding" (note the quotes) behind a simple user name, when in fact your opinion is influenced by YOUR JOB.

To put it in a simpler perspective so that you can understand....
An opinion is something that includes both a positive as well as a negative content (when each of them might be possible).

You, by working for APR, the company that actually sells and profits from the product, have
forgone ANY possibility of a negative content in your "opinion" (like it would ever be possible to say "APR's Stage III kit sucks...don't buy it" ), hence turning your so called opinion into inadvertent (or not)
advertising.

In even simpler words, how is your "opinion" an opinion, when it could only have one content, which of course is that the company you work for makes a product that is "awesome and everyone should buy".
If i was working for Revo and i came out saying Revo is the BEST, would you accept that as being..."my opinion" ?

I don't think so....As i've said above, you gave up your "opinion rights" regarding APR products the moment you started working for APR.Wanna talk about your opinion on how to end world hunger ?
I'm willing to listen....


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> by working for APR


He does not work for APR. 

That's like saying best buy employees work for Sony.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> He does not work for APR.
> 
> That's like saying best buy employees work for Sony.


Oh...man.... :facepalm:

Did you miss that part ??

Here it is again.


APR Tuning http://www.goAPR.eu
Ghita Silviu
tel: 0766.607.757
mail: [email protected]

http://94.60.137.163/showthread.php?t=1195

What more do you want him doing to...."qualify"....
Sand cast the manifolds and CNC the turbo's ?

FFS... Arin.... :banghead:


----------



## ghita.silviu (Oct 26, 2010)

allready told you GolfRS, that i am helping the distribuitor from romania with commercials, not like a JOB or something !!

and second, allready told you, that if the guy from Italy, buy`s a stage 3, i have nothing to win, nothing to lose, (i didn`t event tell he to came in romania for example) i only told him that is a good product, saying that based on my experience with apr stage 3 on 2.0 tfsi.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

ghita.silviu said:


> i am helping the distribuitor from romania with commercials,


EXACTLY !!!

Isn't that what i am saying all along ??

But how can you be..."helping with commercials", when your phone AND email is on APR's Romania website as a contact for product inquiries ?

http://goapr.eu/distribuitori.html

Bottom of the page reads : "Sunteti interesat ? Pentru mai multe detalii contactati-ne la: 0766.607.757 sau pe email ! (*[email protected]*)

So you are giving out your email to people interested in becoming APR dealers...
You consider that.... "helping with commercials" ? :banghead:





> and second, allready told you, that if the guy from Italy, buy`s a stage 3, i have nothing to win, nothing to lose, (i didn`t event tell he to came in romania for example) i only told him that is a good product, saying that based on my experience with apr stage 3 on 2.0 tfsi.


No one said you made him decide or change his mind.What i said is that you used an originally non related thread to voice a non existent "opinion", to promote APR merchandise, thus also profiting
in the long run.Unless you do what you claim you do for APR free of charge, just from the
goodness of your heart...


----------



## ghita.silviu (Oct 26, 2010)

non existent "opinion" check the thread with the Skoda please.

to promote APR merchandise, thus also profiting in the long run. this one makes me laugh


another personal opinion, is that you are soo cheap , that you woudn`t move a finger for anyone !

helping a friend with emails, and stuff, 


the reality is that if i where as cheap as you, probably i whoul ask a lot of money for posting topics in romania,

and, i can say i have enought funds, so i don`t become soo cheap in thinking...

sorry for writing all this, but man, you deserve to hear it.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

ghita.silviu said:


> non existent "opinion" check the thread with the Skoda please.
> 
> to promote APR merchandise, thus also profiting in the long run. this one makes me laugh
> 
> ...


WHAT ?? 

Did you just personally insult me ??

Did you see me anywhere calling YOU anything ?

Is this how you handle the truth ?By insulting other people ?

Dude, you think twice about what you are saying before typing it.

You WORK for an international company, and you are in a forum calling me 
cheap cause you work for free ??LOL..This is really funny....

So your... "hobby".... is coming into forums and commenting on your companies products,
then saying you do it to "help"your friends ??

I regret to say you don't even have the dignity to admit you are working for a company,put 
a sponsor logo under your screen name, and play by the rules.Just so you prepare people
for the biased "opinion" you are going to write, since clearly working for a company
automatically limits you capability for fair judgment.

Next thing we are going to hear in here is that APR is a charity organisation helping the
poor and underprivileged... :banghead:


----------



## ghita.silviu (Oct 26, 2010)

that is the truth, if you like it or not.

i am not going to spam this tread, further discussion, PM,

ciao


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Turbofold - more info?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> Oh...man.... :facepalm:
> 
> Did you miss that part ??
> 
> ...


GolfRS, 

I know more about my company than you. 

I'm right. You are wrong. 

-Arin


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> GolfRS,
> 
> I know more about my company than you.
> 
> ...


Ahaha...

There are 2 pages above this that prove the opposite.

I'm right. You are clueless.


----------



## Snaeper (Jul 3, 2009)

GolfRS said:


> Ahaha...
> 
> There are 2 pages above this that prove the opposite.
> 
> I'm right. You are clueless.


-2/10

Arin, save yourself the time and don't respond.

This kinda reminds me of a time a guy on Motortrend.com got in an argument with the LEAD EDITOR Angus MacKenzie. The guy argued that the Cadillac CTS used the same architecture as the Pontiac G8 (Which it didn't and everyone knew that except him apparently). 

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_0811_2009_cadillac_cts-v_first_test/index.html

superb4 vs. Angus Mackenzie.


----------

