# Michelin Pilot Super Sport (PSS) short review



## 996cab (Aug 13, 2011)

*Intro and Backgorund*


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## MoreGooderTT (Aug 20, 2011)

That was a very good and interesting review, 996cab. I have a set of PSS sitting in my living room right now, ready to go on the car on Saturday. What a long week it has been!

How do you find the comfort level compared to the PS2? And, to what degree are these tires sensitive to small changes in air pressure? My limited experience with low profile tires is that a couple of pounds makes a huge difference.


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## 996cab (Aug 13, 2011)

MoreGooderTT said:


> That was a very good and interesting review, 996cab. I have a set of PSS sitting in my living room right now, ready to go on the car on Saturday. What a long week it has been!
> 
> How do you find the comfort level compared to the PS2? And, to what degree are these tires sensitive to small changes in air pressure? My limited experience with low profile tires is that a couple of pounds makes a huge difference.


Thx.

The comfort level is no different to me compared to the PS2. Road noise is perhaps a few decibels less however keep in mind I have a Roadster so that could be placebo coming to play in relation to road noise. 

Good point about tyre PSI - I stick to OEM religiously now - though keep in mind my suspension is different to most being MSS derived. 

I would hazard a guess that they may probably be sensitive to changes in PSI - though I have not tested that so am only guessing here.


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## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

I have used the PSS and the RE-11's back to back and I MUCH prefer the RE-11's

I do not car for Michelin's soft side-walls. 

The RE-11's have a sharper turn-in with greater grip levels. They also are awesome in the wet and hydro planing resistant. They lose in the tread wear rating, but I will take that penalty, as they do everything else better than the PSS


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## 996cab (Aug 13, 2011)

TRZ06 said:


> I have used the PSS and the RE-11's back to back and I MUCH prefer the RE-11's
> 
> I do not car for Michelin's soft side-walls.
> 
> The RE-11's have a sharper turn-in with greater grip levels. They also are awesome in the wet and hydro planing resistant. They lose in the tread wear rating, but I will take that penalty, as they do everything else better than the PSS


I wanted the RE-11 also however in the UK we seem to lose out when it comes to tyres...we just do not get that much of a choice.

I have heard nothing but good things about RE-11s and wish I could sample a set...!

My original wish list was noted in this post - http://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=228121.


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## pal (Aug 16, 2000)

I used the PSS at a rain soaked track day last month at NJMP Thunderbolt. If I had to sum up the performance of these tires on a TT in one sentence it would be they did not seem to care much that it was wet. Stellar performance in the wet during corner entry, braking and corner exits. I found I could get on the gas sooner and harder on exits than I was used to.

I have not tried them in the dry yet and will do an event later this year and see how they perform. My experience is with PS2s, RE-11s, Continental DW, NT-05s and Falken Azenis RT615s all on a BMW Z4M Coupe which is my regular track car. On the Z4M, the PS2s and the NT-05s are my top favorites follwed closely by the RE-11s.


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## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

TRZ06 said:


> I have used the PSS and the RE-11's back to back and I MUCH prefer the RE-11's
> 
> I do not car for Michelin's soft side-walls.
> 
> The RE-11's have a sharper turn-in with greater grip levels. They also are awesome in the wet and hydro planing resistant. They lose in the tread wear rating, but I will take that penalty, as they do everything else better than the PSS


That's a bummer man. I'm not knocking the PSS's they are still a great tire and they get rave reviews across all forums, including the Corvette guys. 

If you ever get the chance to try the RE-11's though, jump at it.


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## Vegas-RoadsTTer (Mar 17, 2013)

*Recent Car & Driver tests rate Pilot Super Sports #1*

Although they are not the fastest tire if you want to track or motocorss. 

http://www.caranddriver.com/compari...mmer-performance-tires-tested-comparison-test


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

I run Michelin Pilot Sport... A/S+.


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## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

Vegas-RoadsTTer said:


> Although they are not the fastest tire if you want to track or motocorss.
> 
> http://www.caranddriver.com/compari...mmer-performance-tires-tested-comparison-test


 I wonder why they didn't include the RE-11 in that test.


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

TRZ06 said:


> I wonder why they didn't include the RE-11 in that test.


 I think the r11s are extreme performance and the test was ultra high performance


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## pal (Aug 16, 2000)

I found RE-11s to have more ultimate grip but requiring more baby sitting (keep tire pressure optimal) at the track/pits. And when they got greasy due to over heating they do lose a lot of grip. 

PS2s on the other hand operated at a wider temp range and were progressive when they overheated and did not require me to back off as much as RE-11s. My lap times were better on PS2s and that could partly be me getting better with the car but were also because PS2s imparted more confidence. I expect PSSes to be the same or better. 

At the end of the day I think its a matter of preference for HPDE events where learning, having fun and being safe are the goals.


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

*Update after 4 track days and over 5k street miles*

Thought an update on the PSS tyres would be apt after more track session and street driving in which we have covered miles on dry and wet tarmacs.

I will keep the reviews to particular points...;


*Wet public road use*
just as surefooted compared to the PS2 I had previously. I do not particularly recall thinking "Amazing" nor, mind, do I recall thinking "could be improved". Perhaps a sign of great performance in the wet as I was just able to put the miles in on narrow country lane roads and motorways without much thought. The grip; direction change; composure in wet were same level as in dry when used on public roads.

We have not tracked in the wet as yet so cannot feedback as yet and hope to do so in due course.

*Dry public road use*
Superb really as per my original post. As the tyre has bedded in and scrubbed more, the composure and road holding have improved.

*Dry track use*
Superb turn-in; grip; loading handling in cornering phase; directional change; braking performance with no dramas. Where the PS2 seemingly got greasy after 10 laps requiring a cooling off period as they got too hot causing more sliding around, PSS can easily and happily go to 15 laps and more though by then the mind is tired and a rest is necessary. 

The other trait here is also the G-meter from Video Vbox which tells us that the PSS are just not being worked with lower reading compared to video footage at same track with PS2 tyres. Where the PS2 start to give out squealing noises...the PSS barely do...indication of more grip available.

Our ‘_tame_’ racing driver got to 20 laps and he states that lap time improved after 10 laps as the tyres got hotter and seem to maintain that temperature without getting greasy...good to know and here I have found a set of tyres that will allow me to stay on track for as long as I can before getting tired. 

I always found the previous PS2 to be useful for up to 8 laps and thereafter it started to get greasy and car then starts sliding around a little more. By lap 10, the increasing sliding was a sign that the tyres were too hot and useless. 

*Hot Tyre PSI*
PS2 were happy with 36-38PSI hot on fronts and above 30PSI hot on rears to perform. PSS are entirely different on the same car – these require 28PSI hot fronts (_yep, not a typo...!_) and 35PSI hot rears and they are good to go... 
When using the above PS, the front hooks up very well and the car is just so manageable with all round grip...impressive.

*Road noise*
Maybe am looking out for it however these seem slightly more intrusive compared to the PS2s especially at constant motorway cruising around 70MPH. Again, it may be that am looking out for the noise so take this for what it is worth...just an observation.

*Tyre Wear*
Early days though the signs are very good. After over 5k miles and 3 hard driven all day track session I measured the rears at 7.5mm in the middle (new is 8mm). The fronts were 7mm middle sections (8mm when new). 

Again, keep in mind that I have the Haldex Competition Controller and this is supposed to split Torque to 50/50 between front and rear axle – would appear not to be the case based on tyre wear. 

*CONCLUSION FOR NOW*...
Great tyres and for me the fact that I can...;
- drive with continued confidence in the wet on public roads; 
- stay out on track longer than my stamina can tolerate; 
- maintain the handling from PS2 given all the work undertaken on the suspension with MSS
- braking is not affected
- turn-in is just as sharp
- side load on cornering is maintained thus car does not slide around especially on track after many laps;

...am very happy with these tyres and do not wish for slicks or anything else for now until I can get to the point that the supporting data from Vbox indicates am exceeding the Gs these tyres can handle...at that point I will need a better set of tyres.

pix tells better story I guess...taken after last track day ferrying passengers all day...;
























































William


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

The comp controller is not a 50/50 controller it just adds the ability to keep the rear axle engaged under braking but otherwise is programmed similarly to the blue controller:

"The HPA Gen.4 Competition Controller is calibrated similar to the "Race mode" setting used in the standard Gen.4 Performance Controllers, but has the additional feature of increasing the clutch torque when braking. "

http://www.hpamotorsport.com/haldex.htm


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

JohnLZ7W said:


> The comp controller is not a 50/50 controller it just adds the ability to keep the rear axle engaged under braking but otherwise is programmed similarly to the blue controller:
> 
> "The HPA Gen.4 Competition Controller is calibrated similar to the "Race mode" setting used in the standard Gen.4 Performance Controllers, but has the additional feature of increasing the clutch torque when braking. "
> 
> http://www.hpamotorsport.com/haldex.htm


 Thx John.

looking at the tyres, would appear that I should really go lower on the fronts (_last two pictures_) on hot temps - may have to try out 26PSI hot as the centre looks to have taken the brunt of the track abuse.

Rears (_first two pictures_) look alright with edges showing use...35PSI hot is working.


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## smack_ttrs (Mar 24, 2013)

for outright lap time on a dry track the rs-3 is the tire to have. i picked up about 4 tenths on a ~2 minute track over the ad-08 which is another great dry tire and was the tire to have. this was on my time attack prepped evo.


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

smack_ttrs said:


> for outright lap time on a dry track the rs-3 is the tire to have. i picked up about 4 tenths on a ~2 minute track over the ad-08 which is another great dry tire and was the tire to have. this was on my time attack prepped evo.


You not wrong on that...read some reviews yesterday when you posted and it seems one that is under the radar only known by those who seek past the popular brands. One to keep a note of...thx.

Reminds me of the Falken FK-452 which I had on my MK1 TT Roadster - not mentioned much however a great daily driver tyre which lasted for ever; great in the wet and was well priced.


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

Iv'e done a fair few miles on my Super Sports,must be at least 6-8000 miles,but I'm not too sure with out checking.
I can't fault the tyres,they still look like new,and give great performance on the road.
Just a little note.
Many tires that are on sale in the USA ,like the RS3's are not available in Europe at the moment,due to chemicals used in the tyres being banned.
Hopefully Hankook,and others will change the chemical mixture if possible,so that we get to try the RS3's
I really rated the RS2's,so I imagine the RS3's must be good.
Don't think they would match the mich's for all-round road track performance though.


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## smack_ttrs (Mar 24, 2013)

jaybyme said:


> Don't think they would match the mich's for all-round road track performance though.


according to that test in the dry they stop >5% shorter distance and are just a tick better in lateral grip so they can't fall too far behind. also the new advan ad08r looks to be promising. once i get the evo back on track, hopefully i'll be able to do a bit of testing prior to superlap. i'll let you guys know what i find.


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

no doubt they will compare well on track,more than likely actually better than the Miich's .
Wear rates and wet weather performance will be where the big differences lye's


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## smack_ttrs (Mar 24, 2013)

for sure they give up pace in the wet. i was just thinking as a track tire.


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

The new Michelin Sport Cup 2,should be the ultimate track tire. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jATpbD9V3X0


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## arnemeyer (Jan 9, 2012)

Fronts at 26 PSI? I know we run a different suspension setup (I'm still stock) and alignment (-1.3 and -1.5 camber on the fronts, +0.08 and +0.07 toe on the fronts -- I'll post my full alignment sheet in another thread soon), but I was running at about 45 PSI on the fronts. At 26 PSI I feel like the rubber would be completely rolling over. 

All the research I did on a bunch of forums of different car types had people running PSS in the high-30s to mid-40s PSI hot on the load bearing, driven wheels, so that's what I went off of, although starting low. I know it doesn't translate on a one-to-one basis but I had to start somewhere. That being said, a guy parked next to me with an E92 M3 at the track and -2.5 front camber and I can't remember his rear camber was running them in the mid-30s for PSI. 

The photos are below -- you can see on the rears (sideview only), which I was running at about 40 PSI hot, tire wear was above the Bibendum wear indicator. On the fronts, I started low and scrubbed the wear indicators clean off. I raised the PSI and the wear seems about at least where they should be. I wasn't getting quite the wear you were getting, but I did wear the shoulders off of the two center tread blocks on the left front tire (I was running a clockwise track). 

My fastest lap times were recorded during the first session and the last session I did that day - both were with the higher PSI range. Ambient temps were 76F - 103F, tarmac temps were 95F - 135F, with the hottest temps during my last session. Unfortunately I didn't do any temperature readings of the tires themselves. 


*Left front* 









*Right front* 









*Front scrubbing* 









*Rear scrubbing*


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

Interesting though not unexpected. 

If I run the PSS at 45PSI hot on track I would be straight off the track due to lack of grip as the centre of the tyre will be over inflated  than the sides - sort of doughnut effect. 

Besides, 45PSI hot is too close to the 51PSI MAX tyre pressure - you only have a 6PSI margin and that can easily be eroded as the temps get up...leaves no room for error as temps can creep up easily especially on a hot day. The hotter a tyre runs more the PSI increases. 

BBK and aggressive pads can contribute to tyres running hotter. All based on experience. We often see a 10PSI increase from cold settings on the fronts. The rears commonly are below 10PSI increase.

All depends on the suspension setup...a well sorted suspension keeps tyre contact patch to optimum and thus also contributes to heat generation in the tyre which then drives up PSI...again, we have seen that as we have improved the suspension over time we are able to run lower PSI and see improved grip all round. Lap times verifies the direction change and in some cases as recently it can be drastic. 4-secs a lap over the PS2 was the latest improvement we saw and we do not attribute that to the PSS alone.


Tyre PSI is very much a personal preference. On mine - also our development car -, with PS2 above 36PSI though below 40PSI hot worked on the fronts and on the rears anything above 30PSI hot worked a treat and no complaints there. We arrived at those PSI after much testing.

Naturally, we kept to that same PSI when the PSS went on and after two trackdays we were just not getting on with the tyres and showing slower lap times than the worn PS2 prior - we felt it may be new tyres syndrome though lap times rarely lie. 

We simply looked at something different, forgo the common views and that showed a marked improvement. We then went further and the lap times came tumbling down and the car just behaved as well as it did with the PS2 tyres we had previously.

We are still monitoring the fronts and lower hot PSI works best for us. The photos taken after the last track day shows that we should try 2PSI hot lower thus 26PSI will be tried at the next trackday. We will simply test and feedback. We also use the Vbox to compare results in terms of laptimes and we do have a hand held temp gauge which also provides further feedback of lower hot front PSI was neccessary. 

Our geo is noted below...note it is entirely different to what you run. This works for us and the lap times reflects that.

Geo, tyre choice and PSI settings are so personal that it often pays to try various settings. 

Ohh, assuming the suspensions are different as in our case then each car would offcourse be set up different for rake; corner balance; ride height; brake bias (_more aggressive on either axle_) all these will affect how the tyres perform and behave from one car to the other.

I think it is fair to state that there will be more differences than common results hence I tend to preface or state what works best for us.

It really is interesting how each car behaves. I once drove two other TT-RS at the same time over same public roads, a Roadster like mine and a Coupe. 

The back-to-back comparison alone gave me plenty of food for thoughts. I could have been driving 3 entirely different brands...! The ride; handling; throttle behaviour; brakes; turn-in were so positively different.

Mine was the only MagneRide and the others were on Audi Sports. Each had its own character – I loved them all FWIW and would have been happy with any of them as a car. Offcourse, the Coupe was less noisy and felt pretty cosy.



*GEO*


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## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

Good info, thanks for doing the review. Although I still don't understand how you are keeping those tires on the rims under 30 PSI. The PSS sidewalls are fairly soft and I've always had to get them over 40PSI. Like arnemeyer, 40-45PSI was about where I needed the fronts on my previous car. Although, I'm still going to buy PSS because nothing matches them as a dual purpose street/track tire. 

If you have the means, can you try marking the sidewalls and run a skid pad? I'd be really surprised if you didn't see wear halfway down the sidewall at 26PSI.


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

CarbonRS said:


> Good info, thanks for doing the review. Although I still don't understand how you are keeping those tires on the rims under 30 PSI. The PSS sidewalls are fairly soft and I've always had to get them over 40PSI. Like arnemeyer, 40-45PSI was about where I needed the fronts on my previous car. Although, I'm still going to buy PSS because nothing matches them as a dual purpose street/track tire.
> 
> If you have the means, can you try marking the sidewalls and run a skid pad? I'd be really surprised if you didn't see wear halfway down the sidewall at 26PSI.


 I will do that ref the request - all data collection is good so we will do that over a few track days and share pix.

We were also baffled as on the PS2 the tyre PSI needed to be higher....did not make sense however the traction with lower PSI upfront just works for us.

This video - http://youtu.be/FSYPwdQbMpU - was the last time on track a couple of weeks ago with Jim turning his quickest time on this particular session with 28PSI hot front and 35PSI hot rear. 

He seems to fare alright, no dramas from the steering and the rear is not misbehaving either. The car was used all day this way doing passenger demo laps and hitting quick lap times.

The platform is stable - admittedly with the MSS kit on there - lower front tyre PSI works well with PSS on our car.

We are still figuring out the 'WHY/HOW?' though as the car is turning lower lap times so the reason is not something we are urgently looking in to.

It would be good for someone else to try that out and feedback - preferably an MSS fitted car...'*jibbed*' is on track in the next couple of days...perhaps he may want to give that a go...start the session with your normal PSI till tyres are up to temp then bleed down and see if it makes a difference... 

William


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## arnemeyer (Jan 9, 2012)

Admittedly I changed a couple of things all at once on the car between track days - tires and geo - so I can't easily debug the differences in handling between setup and tires as much as I'd like. My only modification thus far is the stiffer H&R rear ARB, set the stiffest setting. 

However, before, on the Toyos and the original setup, it was point, hit the gas, and pull through the turn with neutral handling... most of the time. I could still make it plow often if I wanted and the Toyos would be complaining audibly the entire time. Every once in a while, the tail would kick out. 

With the PSS and new setup, I've kind of ruined it a little bit -- I go into a corner like a FWD car, and if I push it too much on corner exit, I'll get oversteer. A friend of mine spun the car on a ~40mph flat sweeper with a slightly decreasing radius towards the end. So now I have figure out how to go back to something a bit more neutral - as I was doing some steering correction on most of my laps, whereas before there was hardly any. 

Overall, the PSS did feel better and I could hardly make them complain, which means I still got more to go. My fastest lap was about 1 sec slower than my previous fastest on a significantly hotter day (30F hotter). 

Here's my sheet.


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

arnemeyer said:


> Admittedly I changed a couple of things all at once on the car between track days - tires and geo - so I can't easily debug the differences in handling between setup and tires as much as I'd like. My only modification thus far is the stiffer H&R rear ARB, set the stiffest setting.
> 
> However, before, on the Toyos and the original setup, it was point, hit the gas, and pull through the turn with neutral handling... most of the time. I could still make it plow often if I wanted and the Toyos would be complaining audibly the entire time. Every once in a while, the tail would kick out.
> 
> ...


 Interesting Geo...

An observation, get the shop to select the '1BQ' car type code for MagneRide - it should not make a difference to the Audi recommended parameters – in the UK it does not however I do not know what the US spec cars are setup up as. It will however help others when asking for a similar setup because they can quote the car type of 1BQ and the shop should be on the ball for that – assuming they have MagneRide.

Your Geo still does not explain why the need to run higher PSI though.


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## arnemeyer (Jan 9, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Interesting Geo...
> 
> An observation, get the shop to select the '1BQ' car type code for MagneRide - it should not make a difference to the Audi recommended parameters – in the UK it does not however I do not know what the US spec cars are setup up as. It will however help others when asking for a similar setup because they can quote the car type of 1BQ and the shop should be on the ball for that – assuming they have MagneRide.
> 
> Your Geo still does not explain why the need to run higher PSI though.


 
I'll let them know, although despite the fact that they're a pretty big race shop (including being a Audi Customer Racing team), I doubt they'll get another TT RS come in there anytime soon. 

What's interesting about it? While I've been an auto and race enthusiast for quite a while, I know next to nothing about practical application and I'm in the middle of learning a ton. When I went into the shop, they took a look at the wear on my Toyos -- which was nearly all on the inside shoulder of the fronts -- and discussed what kind of balance between driving styles I wanted (something like 70/80% street, 30/20% track), they came up with this geo for that and to help with tire wear. 

I'd be curious to see how far down the sidewall the tires got worn with your low PSI. Can you snap a photo of that? On my photo, the wear that goes almost down to the second line above the "treadwear" text was running at about 40 PSI hot. I got it back up to where the wear indicators said it should be by increasing my hot pressure. 

Really every other forum I've found has members talking about running PSS in higher ranger we've been discussing for track days, regardless of where their weight lies or which wheels are drivable. I think that's why CarbonRS and I are surprised. 

So, kind of hijacking the PSS thread - all this being said, with my sheet up, etc. Seems like I'm breaking the rears loose easier/sooner than the fronts, so front grip isn't that much of a problem, even under load. Any thoughts on the next step to bring that back into a more neutral state?


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

arnemeyer said:


> I'll let them know, although despite the fact that they're a pretty big race shop (including being a Audi Customer Racing team), I doubt they'll get another TT RS come in there anytime soon.
> 
> What's interesting about it? While I've been an auto and race enthusiast for quite a while, I know next to nothing about practical application and I'm in the middle of learning a ton. When I went into the shop, they took a look at the wear on my Toyos -- which was nearly all on the inside shoulder of the fronts -- and discussed what kind of balance between driving styles I wanted (something like 70/80% street, 30/20% track), they came up with this geo for that and to help with tire wear.
> 
> ...


 Requested pix attached...

The '_Interesting_' comment was more aimed at your initial Geo settings. The TOE OUT on the front would have been OK at 1mm across the axle and a change to more negative camber would have been what I had gone for. On the rears, I would have gone back to basics thus what Audi recommend and then judge from there.


With your RSB set to stiff you are in oversteer territory anyhow. The TOE IN looks fine now to me and I would leave that where it is at. So reset the Camber to Audi recommendation would have been my aim. The RSB set to stiff will suffice for now...am not a fan of uprated ARBs/RSB though for an entirely different reason.

Our Geo is now pretty set and as follows...keep in mind this works for us and a few people here who have tried it. 

FRONT:
Camber (negative) of -1.4 is now our default set and that works very well
TOE – we 0 in the main or OUT of -0.03 each side MAX

REAR:
Camber (negative) – Audi recommendation and for the UK it s -1.2
TOE IN – Audi recommendation and for the UK it s 0.12

How we arrived at this set was through testing on streets and track. I have included an earlier GEO sheet during more testing. Note that on this particular occasion we only change just front CAMBER simply to kill understeer. We keep everything else close to the Audi recommendation. This allowed us to determine what works. This change was immediately after a few hundred miles post installing a tweaked tester MSS spring kit as part of the development. 

The change followed a session on track and the feedback from our ‘_tame_’ racing driver was to now tackle TOE. We kept changes to specific areas based on road and track feedback. We never once felt a change to the rear was necessary even on stock suspension...our gains have been had from front GEO only changes. 

William



*INFO REQUESTED*










*
GEO WITH JUST FRONT CAMBER CHANGE
*


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## arnemeyer (Jan 9, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Requested pix attached...
> 
> The '_Interesting_' comment was more aimed at your initial Geo settings. The TOE OUT on the front would have been OK at 1mm across the axle and a change to more negative camber would have been what I had gone for. On the rears, I would have gone back to basics thus what Audi recommend and then judge from there.


 Thanks for all this. As far as the initial settings -- those started off as whatever the factory/dealer delivered and whatever effect a year of daily driving and five track days of abuse may have had. My fault for not having it looked at earlier. 
I'll have a chat with my shop and the recommendations you provide below soon. I could go back to the original ARB or go to the softer setting too. Obviously I don't want to change too much all at once again. 


Back to the PSS: 

I'm doing a couple sessions at the track this weekend (temps seem low) and will check tire temps, look at the PSI, and do a bit more documentation of it all over a few sessions based on the discussion here. This is a counter-clockwise road course with a high speed banked oval for about 40% of the 2.8 mi course (this is a map if you are curious). 

Thanks again!


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## jibbed (Dec 3, 2011)

William - Re: your Tyre pressure test... Was definitely planning on giving that a go. 

Haven't been out on the track in a few years, so I doubt I'll be that consistent where a few tenths might be noticable. 

Will probably just do it based on how the car feels.


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

arnemeyer said:


> Thanks for all this. As far as the initial settings -- those started off as whatever the factory/dealer delivered and whatever effect a year of daily driving and five track days of abuse may have had. My fault for not having it looked at earlier.
> I'll have a chat with my shop and the recommendations you provide below soon. I could go back to the original ARB or go to the softer setting too. Obviously I don't want to change too much all at once again.
> 
> 
> ...


 You are welcome - resetting to OEM is a good place to start off and you may find that you quickly get to what works for you in no time. 

Else it becomes an endless change or as we prefer to note - you become the unpaid R&D/tester for various products.

We found that the PSS does help mask some of the handling issues, admittedly on longer track use and in the wet on public roads. It is a tyre that seems to perform well on good or stable suspension platforms on streets though on track we still need to understand what works best. Heat is not an issue with it unlike the PS2 and at present we are happy with the rear setup thus mid 30s hot PSI is good. On the front, we have some experimenting to still do.

Ultimately, we want the Geo; PSI data; temperature data and visual inspections to align. At present, 3 out of 4 aligns and the visual inspection is the odd one out...it tells us that we need lower PSI as the centre of the tyre is getting more punishment as per pix shared above.

We are trying to understand that and it may require playing around more with front TOE settings in particular we think. We are between 0 to 1mm TOE OUT across the axle...the answer lays somewhere in between these two we reckon.

What we have done to assist is even front to rear ride height.

Pix posted on our *FaceBook page* with even ride height compared to an R8 GT we were running against on track...;

*STATIC*










*ON TRACK



















* 
William


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## S5Cab (Aug 5, 2012)

*I can vouch for the Hankook R-S3*

Fine for the street, great on the track. Last weekend at Cal Speedway held up very well with track temps over 140 degrees.


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## arnemeyer (Jan 9, 2012)

Well, I took a short day at the Auto Club Speedway to take another look at tire pressures and temps on the PSS. Ambient temperatures were the same as back in May when I was still on the OEM Toyos. 

Good news is regardless I dropped 1.5 seconds off my previous best time, coming in at 2:00.262. 

So, take this with a grain of salt since I couldn't really do this "scientifically" - I was out there on my own so I couldn't just dive into the hot pits and do a proper reading quickly and I only did two sessions. This is a counter-clockwise course with the Nascar straight and turns in the oval part of the course, so there's a lot of load going into the right tires and the temps show that. I only ran two sessions as well, so my data set is really limited and I couldn't average or see if there were any outliers. 

Target hot pressures were 45 front, 40 rear. 

*First session* 
Cold pressures were 36 front and 35 rear 
I ended with pressures at 46/47 fronts, 41/42 rears (first number is left side, second is right side) 
Temps were (outside to inside) 
LF 154-170-180 
RF 180-180-174 
RR 145-152-140 
LR 113-120-135 

*Second session* 
Unfortunately I got caught uo on the way to the garage so there's an additional 30sec of cooldown compared to the first session.  
Set hot pressures to 44 front and 40 rear 
Ended session with 44/45 fronts, 41/41 rears 
Temps were 
LF 145-162-169 
RF 168-176-175 
RR 152-157-155 
LR 126-140-145 

I'll keep looking at this and logging more data, but at least based on early indications, I can't imagine dropping hot pressures by over 15 PSI without some reprecussions. That being said, definitely need more data points. 

Visual inspection didn't reveal additional wear in the center lanes beyond what I did to them in the previous track day. I'll post pics tomorrow. 

Reagardless, been really enjoying these tires. thumbs up.


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

Thanks for the update and it is a shame you did not drop the fronts atleast to get a direct comparisons.

user '*jibbed*' did a direct comparisons weekend gone and I will leave it to him to give us all a view...

William


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## arnemeyer (Jan 9, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks for the update and it is a shame you did not drop the fronts atleast to get a direct comparisons.
> 
> user '*jibbed*' did a direct comparisons weekend gone and I will leave it to him to give us all a view...
> 
> William


 I would have dropped the fronts but I was only there for a half day, so I figured I would try to get some baseline data for my own setup as best I could before experimenting. Next time out I'll drop the fronts during the full day. 

Mostly I just want to find where I should be with these tires so that can be consistent and I can start evaluating (or not) other changes adjustments.


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## arnemeyer (Jan 9, 2012)

I promised some photos post-track day. Unfortunately the tires have some chunking from the super hot previous track day. You can't really see it on the previous set of photos, but the left front tire looks nearly identical before and after this weekend's track day. The right tire got most of the abuse this time around. 

However, it does appear like we have similar wear with respect to those middle blocks. I could probably lose a few PSI and flatten the contact patch and even our wear, but not drastically so, which the anecdotal temperature logging and faster lap time support. 


*Left front tire* 










*Right front tire*


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

I agree with your earlier comment ref dropping 15PSI hot - no, you do not want to do that as our cars are different in more ways than one - weight; suspension; geo; tarmac driven on track; driving style etc.

I also agree that ultimately it is about getting a number of key facts aligned thus bum-dyno (_my favourite_); temp data; visual; PSI. Each of those will compete with the other in the decision making process and can put us on the wrong path of change though tyre PSI really is a personal thing.

If that were my car, the visual will be telling me that lower HOT PSI needs to be considered as that would seem to be the odd one out of the 4 key data that needs to align. 

Again, I will keep experimenting to get a happy medium regardless of what the majority opinions are...I keep saying it though it is true...tyre PSI is very much a personal thing.

Ultimately, it is all down to what we are both doing – experimenting to find a happy medium for us – we seem to be both on track with looking at the data available to us...thx for sharing and all very intuitive.

William


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## sentari (Dec 4, 2011)

William... Do you run the same height in front and back? Or is your back end slightly higher? BTW: I run the PSS as well... With BBS-ChR's 19x9.5.. They are really sticky... Oh and do tell about how you did against the R8!


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

sentari said:


> William... Do you run the same height in front and back? Or is your back end slightly higher? BTW: I run the PSS as well... With BBS-ChR's 19x9.5.. They are really sticky... Oh and do tell about how you did against the R8!


Yes thus 345mm front and rear measured from wheel hub centre to tip of fender and that is the ride height we run on the last track day.

The R8 GT was fast especially approaching braking zones and in to corners - it runs Carbon ceramic stock...gets on power quicker and can pull harder than the S2 TT-RS...never any substitute for raw power like a V10 NA powerplant IMO – no Turbo lag etc.

Handles well too...you could almost say it is too safe on track...this has r-tronic as was all R8 GTs. The tuners are close friend of mine – APS of Brackley in England.


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## jibbed (Dec 3, 2011)

G'day William - Just posted a suspension review thread where I talked about tyre pressures... FWIW, I dropped about 7psi on the front, 5 on the rear (hot) which ended up giving me the best results. I think I had 36f/34r warm which turned out to be 40/36 hot (after the second session). Backed off to 33/32 hot, and the car was more settled and the tyres lasted much longer.

I'm not sure I'd have been able to do that on the stock suspension though, as I usually found there was just too much body roll without a lot of pressure in the tyres to make up for it.



[email protected] said:


> Thanks for the update and it is a shame you did not drop the fronts atleast to get a direct comparisons.
> 
> user '*jibbed*' did a direct comparisons weekend gone and I will leave it to him to give us all a view...
> 
> William


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

jibbed said:


> G'day William - Just posted a suspension review thread where I talked about tyre pressures... FWIW, I dropped about 7psi on the front, 5 on the rear (hot) which ended up giving me the best results. I think I had 36f/34r warm which turned out to be 40/36 hot (after the second session). Backed off to 33/32 hot, and the car was more settled and the tyres lasted much longer.
> 
> I'm not sure I'd have been able to do that on the stock suspension though, as I usually found there was just too much body roll without a lot of pressure in the tyres to make up for it.


 Yep, with all our tests on track to date MSS equipped car is happier on less hot tyre PSI. The reason is simply because with the MSS implementation there is a stiffer platform under load and thus the tyre PSI can be backed off a little to maintain optimum tyre contact.

Thanks for sharing and your feedback mirrors our own track results.

For streets, we found the OEM tyre PSI for Euro cars of 32f / 26r to work best however - this assumes the car is not loaded with passengers. See attached image below to use for reference.


*EURO MK2 TT (8J) door sticker showing tyre PSI load options

 *


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## arnemeyer (Jan 9, 2012)

Well, I hit the track again with my thermometer again and, at least for the stock suspension/spring setup, I think I've found a good baseline to share as far as pressures with the Pilot Super Sports.

Obviously, this is what works for me, the track(s) I have been on, and subjectively how the handling feels, along with the ambient temperatures I experienced. While I haven't posted my fastest lap times, they are relatively consistent (generally within 3 seconds of each other - difficult to remember which laps had some traffic to get by) and definitely faster and a better feel than the OEM Toyos.

Track: Auto Club Speedway ROVAL -- high max speed, counter clockwise circuit
Temps: 89F / 31C average, max of 102F / 38C -- so a pretty hot day

PSI fronts hot: 45
PSI rear hot: 41-42

Average tire temps, in Fahrenheit
LF 165 172 176
RF 191 186 185
RR 176 173 169 
LR 152 155 155

Generally what I'm seeing is that my temps aren't consistent across the outside-middle-inside, and usually the outside or inside treads are running hotter than the rest of the tire. However, at least it doesn't indicate over or under inflation. They feel great, with lots of grip, and with my setup, I can get some super controlled lift-off oversteer around a corner if I want. 

Anyhow, figured I'd share.

Below is on-board video of my third fastest lap.


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## 504 medic (Aug 6, 2013)

Seeing those tire wear photos makes me want to go to the track sooooo bad.


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

arnemeyer said:


> Well, I hit the track again with my thermometer again and, at least for the stock suspension/spring setup, I think I've found a good baseline to share as far as pressures with the Pilot Super Sports.
> 
> Obviously, this is what works for me, the track(s) I have been on, and subjectively how the handling feels, along with the ambient temperatures I experienced. While I haven't posted my fastest lap times, they are relatively consistent (generally within 3 seconds of each other - difficult to remember which laps had some traffic to get by) and definitely faster and a better feel than the OEM Toyos.
> 
> ...


Great stuff and thanks for sharing data.

How do you find the XP10 pads on the fronts and do you use these on streets also?

William


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## arnemeyer (Jan 9, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Great stuff and thanks for sharing data.
> 
> How do you find the XP10 pads on the fronts and do you use these on streets also?
> 
> William



No sweat!

I use the pads on the streets. They work fine and stop great under street conditions - they're just noisy most of the time. I feel really bad for anyone sleeping down the roads I would drive if I'm up really early in the morning.

I got the XP10s per recommendation from Mike, Jr. at Carbotech (through forum member mageus) based on how I wanted for dual-purpose street and track with no swapping, and running PSS. I got the brake lines upgraded and Endless RF650 put in when I put the pads on. 

They feel great on the track for me. This is my first time with track day pads, so I have no basis for comparison, but I've been really happy with them. They have a good linear feel when applying pressure and feel like they stop like nobody's business. More so than the OEM pads (and fluid, etc.) is that I'm having to get used to the lower amount of pedal travel necessary to get to threshold braking without ABS kicking in. It almost feels too easy to lock up the tires, but I'm sure that's just from years of getting used to street brake systems.


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

arnemeyer said:


> No sweat!
> 
> I use the pads on the streets. They work fine and stop great under street conditions - they're just noisy most of the time. I feel really bad for anyone sleeping down the roads I would drive if I'm up really early in the morning.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the feedback on the pads. 

I use the XP10 on the rears and may look to use them on fronts also as part of on-going test. I hear nothing but great things about these pads and they are great on the rears for me. I m looking for a front and rear package to form part of our brake kit and Performance Friction do not offer the PFC08 compound that we use on the fronts currently for the rears of the MK2 TT range – which is a shame as the PFC08 is a preferred compound all round simply because they also work very well for streets and track. The XP10 may have to do at point of release if the PFC08 is not available in the pad shape for the rears.

I also get noise from the XP10 on the rears and from the front with PFC08 though only at the slowing speeds...less than 5mph and it is fine to me TBH. 

*ENDLESS RF650* - now you are talking...! 
I have these also and you will note that you simply do not need to bleed these for a long while...great fluid. I simply adore the RF650 and have been using the fluid for the past 3-years...and have only bled them once...truly great fluid and it is a ‘_fit & forget_’ mod. 

The pedal feel on track stays consistently firm throughout the past 3-yrs of use and it is fantastic and same on streets. I spoke to friends with high performance track cars over 3-years ago and almost all were using ENDLESS RF650 though none had ever divulge the info simply because with brake fluid it is a mod that is often not discussed. 

This fluid is a great find...for those who simply want a product that just works...no dramas and no gimmicks. 

Sure, it costs a little more than most however rarely do quality products come at bargain base price...! 

The RF650 fluid is part of each one of our MSS Brake Kit package when released. Each kit will ship with 6x 0.5Ltr bottle – we believe in this product 100%.


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

Don't forget that the Super Sports have different compounds across the tread,so that would influence tread temps


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## arnemeyer (Jan 9, 2012)

jaybyme said:


> Don't forget that the Super Sports have different compounds across the tread,so that would influence tread temps


Good point. I mean, I'm not coming into the hot pits to take the temps and time passes by the time I get from the left front tire to left rear tire, so this isn't a solid scientific exercise anyway. The wear pattern on the treads corroborate the temps too.





William[email protected] said:


> Thanks for the feedback on the pads.
> 
> I use the XP10 on the rears and may look to use them on fronts also as part of on-going test. I hear nothing but great things about these pads and they are great on the rears for me. I m looking for a front and rear package to form part of our brake kit and Performance Friction do not offer the PFC08 compound that we use on the fronts currently for the rears of the MK2 TT range – which is a shame as the PFC08 is a preferred compound all round simply because they also work very well for streets and track. The XP10 may have to do at point of release if the PFC08 is not available in the pad shape for the rears.
> 
> ...


So a lot of folks are running staggered pads front to rear, but it sounds like you're looking into running the same pads on all four corners? But you're also doing brake upgrade testing. Just curious if you're finding that you don't have to force brake bias adjustments by staggering the pads or if this whole conversation is moot because you're testing. 

While initially expensive, I have to say that the combo of SS lines and Endless fluid has been an amazing experience. I did a ton of research before going this route and it's stood up everything I've thrown at it - insanely hot ambient temps, tracks with repeating braking from 110+ mph speeds, etc. My rotors have been in the 575F/300C range - i couldn't get close enough to take tire pressure without gloves on! - after a session, and never felt any less confident in my braking package.


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

arnemeyer said:


> Good point. I mean, I'm not coming into the hot pits to take the temps and time passes by the time I get from the left front tire to left rear tire, so this isn't a solid scientific exercise anyway. The wear pattern on the treads corroborate the temps too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Yes we are continually testing brakes - it is a tough thing to get right and 3-years on we are still not 100% sure on final brake kits for MSS Streets; MSS Sports; MSS Track Pack for the fronts. 

On the rears, we have a settled kit and happy with that. 
We are also happy with brake fluid. 

It is the pads across the board that we are not happy with. I am determined to have a car that brakes flat and not nose heavy - front dipping - on streets or track. In essence, we are attempting to fix an issue not too dissimilar to the rear squatting which we resolved with our Spring kits on the MK2 TT platform. 

We can resolve the front dipping on braking with stiffer front springs however that then affects the handling character we worked hard to achieve.

What I am focussed on is getting the front to rear temperature right - I believe achieving that cost effectively will resolve the front dipping issue. Mine have shown 100 degrees Celsius difference...I want to get that down to 75 degrees Celsius difference.

Our cars have Electronic brakeforce distribution (EBD) though I think they are not that effective and as follows...;
1) I fitted BBK + aggressive pads in PFC01 on the front and kept OEM rotors/pads combo on rears and the rear of the car was unstable on hard braking on streets or track...the nose dipped excessively – see attached pix below both with oem rotors and though RS-19 pads.

2) I then upped rears with RS-19 pads on OEM sized rotors though drilled (_made no difference to performance I just went drilled for the looks_) and the rears were just a little unstable though the front dipping was not as excessive compared to OEM pads.

3) I went up from OEM 312mm rotors to 335mm rotors as well as a more aggressive pad in XP10 and the stability issues simply went away...on track in dry or wet and on streets in dry or wet. So we believe EBD is not that effective here and hardware change coupled with pad change is actually more effective.

I believe the XP10 needs to retain more heat or come up to temp quicker to get them working effectively hence fitting the Ti Shim...I have got lots of testing to do to prove the theory or otherwise. If I am right then going more aggressive pad on the rears coupled with Ti is a more cost effective way of improving the braking balance...thus move more braking rearward in a controlled fashion. This will help reduce the front to rear pad temperature gap from 100 degrees Celsius down to 75 degrees Celsius or there about. I believe achieving that would give me improved braking with less pedal effort.

The other option is to get effective cooling on the fronts to naturally cool the pads down more and therefore naturally reduce their bite however I do think that is unachievable and if it were possible likely unsafe.

“_So why consideration of XP10 on fronts_” I hear you ask...well, I believe the PFC08 I currently run have greater brake torque compared to the XP10 and hence the consideration. A capable pad like XP10 on fronts though with less bite of the PFC08 during use will naturally bring the rears in to play more...Ohh, forget EBD...as I say, I believe it is not that intrusive or effective.



*FRONT DIPPING ON HARD BRAKING*





















William


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

*PSS is dead...*

OK PSS is dead - car is at 65k miles so we did manage to get 20k from the PSS which I bought just over 12 months ago...they were struggling to clear water in heavy rain and ESP was cutting in so it was time to change.

I have changed direction and gone for Dunlop Sport Maxx Race in 255/35/19 which I have been keen to try out - I tried going for 285/30/19 what: not a typo!) however I played it safe for now and kept to stock size of 255/35/19 (96Y).

First impressions of the Maxx Race is that they do feel a bit 'floaty' and so will need the release agents to be scrubbed off...need some miles on these. I also note that they are shorter tread 6.3mm as opposed to 8mm of the PSS.

I will feedback on these over time - they are not cheap - £289 each as opposed to £171 that I can buy PSS for over here in the UK BUT they are supposed to be superb on track and I was curious so we shall see. 

So far, the PSS felt more surefooted even at 3mm though as I say these Maxx Race are new and need time to scrub...also rides firmer...just an observation. I read that they work best when warmed up...so I guess no more 3am test runs in the damp for me...


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

*More info of PSS vs. MAXX Race*

...more info;

- Michelin PSS has square shoulders giving visual looks of being wider but it is not.
- Dunlop MAXX Race is a good 0.5" taller on visual inspection and that looks likely better for wider wheels to stretch them out nicely.
- Both feel the same in weight when handled however the MAXX Race is noted as 23Ibs and PSS 24Ibs in the manufacture spec sheets 
- PSS has wider groove (_presumably for improved water __clearance_) and MAXX narrower 

Will update on driving impression over time.


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

*MAXX Race on wet roads...*

There is much said about the PSS and its ability in the wet and having driven on the PSS on track on damp and wet tarmac and also on public roads in heavy rain I certainly would say the PSS are very good when the road is soaking wet or in heavy rain on track or public roads - inspires confidence indeed. 

Now, everything I had read about the Dunlop Sport MAXX Race indicates that they are not very good in the wet and I was keen to test this out at the earliest opportunity and living in the UK it really does not take long to wait for heavy rain nowadays - seems to rain almost every week... ...simply put, the MAXX Race are more than capable on wet roads...grip is confidence inspiring and full throttle exiting a roundabout was drama free...impressive for new tyres with less than 100 miles use. 

These tyres are hugely underestimated or perhaps the high price means they get overlooked. So far, am not missing the PSS and am really getting to like the MAXX Race. 

I have also managed to reduce the harsher ride by raising my ride height on rear only by 5mm...this simply gives me more positive rake (_ohh btw, I have adjustable MSS tester kit on the front though keep in mind am on MSS Track Pack kit_) and the ride comfort is improved. 

So far, the MAXX Race are impressive...really like them...and they perform well in heavy rain, no issues in regards to lack of grip; aquaplaning etc...got 2nd alignment penned in tomorrow - am a little excessive when it comes to alignment am afraid...all based on experience......I do mine twice per time thus done one day then wait 48-hrs and get it checked again just to see if there has been any deviation then we refine or leave it as is...often a small amount of tweaking is required...yeah, a little OTT :laugh: 

We will be hitting the track soon so we shall see what they do...we have plenty of data on PSS so direct comparison will be easy during this year.


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

*MAXX Race on dry roads...*

The one thing about the Michelin PSS was that they were an immediate improvement over the Michelin PS2 in...;
- grip;
- on the limit streets handling;
- stability;
- noise;

These things were easily quantified - I had PS2 that were on 5mm tread all round before swapping these out for a new set of PSS so the PS2 were still good and in their prime of use.

FFWD to the new set of Dunlop MAXX Race tyres that I have just replaced an old set of Michelin PSS (_had 3mm tread all round left_) with and...
- the noise was back (_manageable though obvious..._);
- stability is not an immediate improvement on each outing (_I will elaborate further in a moment..._);
- on the limit on streets was improved (_I will elaborate further in a moment..._);
- grip in the wet was better than I had expected, so very good IMO;


*MAXX Race grip & stability;*
These tyres need to warm up to give up their secrets and in the dry you really start off thinking these tyres feel a little _'floaty'_ or the tyres have no air in them...then as you venture further in to the aggressive streets driving corners are just sliced in half where you may expect to either downshift to keep the weight on the rear or the car hankered down...pretty impressive especially when you consider that such corners are actually 3rd or even 2nd gear corners you can leave the car in 4th and foot on the LOUD pedal...the tyres will track nicely in...keep the car stable...track out with no issues...sure, you get a little drifting but it is very safe ...

These tyres work well when the going gets fast...there is that hint of "_Keep the faith Luke Skywalker..._" about them because panic and you miss a trick...keep going and you come out the other end and then you simply have to go back and do it a couple more times as I did a few days back on a long 3-hour streets testing. There is grip; stability and a small amount of 4-wd drift available all very well judged to just keep the car feeling easy to manage under the limit...I really do not recall the PSS being this good under the limit, certainly not on streets and definitely not when they were new as those tyres took nearly 1k miles to break-in...

One thing though, as these tyres warm up they become magnet for road debris as they get sticky...and do pick up stones...not an issue just an observation.


*Dunlop MAXX Race are impressive on my outings so far though some key points to note...;*
- I have not managed to find a 275/30/19 tyre size as yet...;

- there is a 285/30/19 option however these may be too wide for our cars...;

- the 255/35/19 tyre is labelled 'MO' thus for Mercedes cars...the Audi labelled 'ROI' only comes in 20" size;

- when the tyres are cold, the steering feels vague and lacks '_feel_' though once the tyres warm up you really get a fair amount of steering feedback...almost like a 993 for those who have played with an air cooled proper Porker...ok calmed down newbie Porsche fans... ;

- the 255/35/19 specs on many tyre sites in the UK and US I found had incorrectly noted the tread depth (_8mm but they are 6.3mm_) and overall diameter as 26" (_same as PSS but they are NOT_). These are 0.50" taller than the PSS. The significance of the overall diameter info is that you will need to increase ride height on your car else the tyres will rub front and or rear.

I have owned this TT-RS since 2009 and I have never ever in the past triggered the hazard lights when stopping hard on streets or out on track...yep, I managed to do so twice testing hard braking on the streets with the MAXX Race tyres...so, when warmed up they grip well in to the tarmac to haul the car to an immediate stop triggering the warning hazard lights...these tyres are going to be fun on track and I suspect these may be close to what r-compound tyres are on track...am really looking forward to getting our Nick on track to see what he thinks of these tyres...we shall see soon enough...track day at end of May


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

*Dunlop Maxx Race off...PSS back on*

...impressed with the Dunlop however the 25mm taller height caused rubbing on all corners. Raising the ride height fixed the issue but car looked more like an SUV!

Anyway, we went back to new set of PSS and rubbing is gone and we were able to lower front and rear to get the car looking right - ohh, you know I have fully adjustable MSS Spring Kit .

I will update the Adjustable Front Kit thread in a moment...

William


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

Hi William.
I went from 19" PSS's to 20" Maxx Race a few months ago.



There are 8mm spacers on the car here,which means I get a slight bit of rubbing at the rear,but without spacers they're fine.
(oem springs)
The Maxx Race are a more track orientated tyre and need to be warm to really show what they can do and in everyday road use I run 2.5 bar F,2.0 bar rear which seems pretty good.Plenty of steering feedback and very hard to get the car to understeer once the tyres are warm.
The dry grip is superior to the PSS's,but that is to be expected as the PSS's are a road tyre.Wear rates will be completely different though.
I've done 5000 km on the road with them now and they are averaging 5mm tread,so the wear rate is better than I expected but still a lot of care has to be taken when it's really wet.In the wet it's hard to get heat into the tyres on public roads and aquaplaning can be a problem above 50 mph.
Any news of TÜV with your kit ?,my car will be in the UK being stripped down next month.


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

jaybyme said:


> Hi William.
> I went from 19" PSS's to 20" Maxx Race a few months ago.
> 
> 
> ...


Warm operation and 50mph issue in the wet noted is same here...really liked the Dunlop...damn fine tyres.

On your car, have a chat with Martin ref TUV...we can do something for you. 

We have to present a car to Eibach Germany for TUV and that was going to be my car which will hopefully have all the developments done by tomorrow - Jim will strip it down for the final time and am going fully adjustable BUT Sports kit not Track Pack - but as I say, have a chat with Martin - if you guys get your act together you could have two kits of your choice in the boot of your car for the return journey back to Germany... 

On another note - we are taking the Scirocco R and mine to the 'Ring in August all being well...just for a blast...if you are close by drop me a line ([email protected]) and I will keep you posted on the trip.


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

Thanks
Do I just email msskits ,or is there a direct email address.
Fully adjustable sports kit, would be perfect by the sounds of it,have you any feedback from customers on 20" ?


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

jaybyme said:


> Thanks
> Do I just email msskits ,or is there a direct email address.
> Fully adjustable sports kit, would be perfect by the sounds of it,have you any feedback from customers on 20" ?


Email me - [email protected] - and I will pick things up.

Yes, we have had some US guys on 20"s and all is well - I think overall tyre & wheel combo was shorter because of the 30 profile of the tyres...from what I recall.


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## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

I used to run PSS, but stepped up to AD08R tires for autox. Here they are with MSS Sports on 18x9.5 53offset TSW Nurburgrings with 5mm spacers all round. No rubbing.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

CarbonRS said:


> I used to run PSS, but stepped up to AD08R tires for autox. Here they are with MSS Sports on 18x9.5 53offset TSW Nurburgrings with 5mm spacers all round. No rubbing.


What size AD08R are you running?


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## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

Marty said:


> What size AD08R are you running?


245/40/18 - for no other reason than to stay within a lower class for autox. From what I've seen, the only clearance issue is the rim guard, the tire tread width or section width clearance could accommodate a 265 AD08R on that rim with the 5mm spacers. This is with IE camber plates on the front to get 2.3-2.4 neg camber and 1.8 on the rear. 

The AD08R is about the widest fitting tire you can get. The tread width on that 245 is 9.4 vs a PSS in stock 255/35/19 size is 9.2.


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## EJF (Aug 21, 2013)

Thanks for the review, I'll be putting Pilot Super Sports on my car tomorrow and I'm very excited. The toyos hydroplaned like crazy


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

*Quick update...*

...so the Dunlop Sports Maxx Race came off and we are back on Michelin PSS in stock size of 255/35/19 - was tempted to go 275/30/19 however that may be next time.

The PSS are just so suited to the car - likely to the MK2 TT Platform so much for daily; track; through Winter to Summer that it is a great all rounder choice especially if you just want to have the flexibility of going on a trackday at a moments notice without much fuss on tire choice.

PSS seem more stable in regards to temperature and PSI especially on track where it does not get greasy easily unlike the PS2 I had back in 2012. 

In terms of dry performance the Dunlop Sports Maxx Race are ahead by a reasonable margin...they gets sticky and stays sticky...great on a warm day. On a damp tarmac though it just cannot get warm enough and its abilities are somewhat lagging behind the PSS. I also found the Dunlop seem to make the car move around a little more...almost felt like the car was on marbles even on dry tarmac...first time that occurred it felt I had all 4 wheels loose...however once you get used to it you can actually use that to an advantage in cornering...basically steering input needs to be less aggressive so just a change in driving style required here.

Will certainly run these PSS to the end of their useful life - thus down to 2mm from 8mm new. I got 20k out of last set and expect same here and the looks at 5k indicates that will be easily done.

Given that the prices are coming down and there are some bargains to be haggled for, _well in the UK there is_, I say these are worth a look or certainly worth putting on the list for an all rounder tire that can also allow enough play on track...IMO, good for 20 hot laps before the PSS may start asking for timeout


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## Brd.Prey (Oct 25, 2012)

William what tire pressures cold hot did you end up with?


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

Brd.Prey said:


> William what tire pressures cold hot did you end up with?


Below are my notes I keep in a spreadsheet and relates to when I had MSS Sports Kit.


*Tyre PSI for Track use**Streets
*Front - keep hot PSI to below 36PSI both sides30.00Rear - keep hot PSI to 36PSI both sides26.00

<tbody>

</tbody>
I now find 34PSI hot on the fronts and the 32PSI hot on the rears with MSS Track _Pack_ Kit works well. 

For Streets am set on 30PSI (_OE is 32PSI for EU cars_) cold for fronts and 26PSI (_OE recommendation for EU cars_) cold for rears.

I rotate tires between 3k to 5k miles and as you ask am due for tire rotation to keep wear even.


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

The Dunlop Sprt Maxx Race are a true Road/track day tyre, so temperatures and pressures have to be right.
Once they are warmed up, I find them to be a great tyre though.
The PSS's have to be the best road tyre for the car,like you said,they work extremely well in most conditions and wear rates are low.
For those on 19",would love some feedback on the Michelin Cup 2's,from what I've heard so far they are a fantastic road/track tyre.
Just hope they are released in 255-30-20 soon.


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

jaybyme said:


> The Dunlop Sprt Maxx Race are a true Road/track day tyre, so temperatures and pressures have to be right.
> Once they are warmed up, I find them to be a great tyre though.
> The PSS's have to be the best road tyre for the car,like you said,they work extremely well in most conditions and wear rates are low.
> For those on 19",would love some feedback on the Michelin Cup 2's,from what I've heard so far they are a fantastic road/track tyre.
> Just hope they are released in 255-30-20 soon.


Tirerack has some reviews - sounds alright...worth a try IMO...size options are limited as you say though 255/35/19 is availabe...no 275/30/19 option for now...suspect that will be soon. Sounds like the Dunlop Maxx Race however with more wet tarmac capability and hopefullyt it is not 1" taller for a comparative size unlike the Dunlops....hmmm, tempting to see how it fares during UK winter...very tempting.


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## sandjunkie (Sep 28, 2012)

Heads up. Just bought a set of PSS's through Costco for $950 out the door with tax and installed+disposal fees,etc.


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## Fined (Sep 3, 2013)

good call. sounds like one hell of a deal.


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## 996cab (Aug 13, 2011)

*UPDATED ON 7th FEB 2017: Michelin Pilot Sport 4 (MPS4) short review*

I guess it is about time I updated this thread...

...so back in December I replaced MPSS (that was my second set and a great tire...so I thought) with Michelin Pilot Sport 4, which I knew very little about. In fact I was going for my 3rd set of MPSS only to find the shop had 2 of the 4 needed in stock and not wanting to wait nor run around with two new tires whilst waiting for the other 2 tires I was up sold (in my mind at the time it was a down sold), reluctantly I might add, to MPS4. In essence the tire shop technician said these are as good as MPSS however more comfy and improved for wet tarmac. Well, I live in the UK and it rains here...a great deal...all year round. So any tire better than MPSS in the wet is always of interest. I was not convinced tbh prior to sampling.



















One thing was for sure...the tire tread looked great post install and approaching the car. So on looks alone I was pleased. One thing to note about MPS4, the new tread is 7.2mm vs. 8mm MPSS. Michelin claim tires will last longer than MPSS...well I managed 20k miles with track events on the last 2 sets so if I can improve on that then am happy and saves money. The great thing about modern times is things are being made to last long as, reportedly, my fathers' generation...that old statement of "they don't make them like they used to" is beginning to wear thin because MPSS certainly wears well even after several track events.

Next up is the smell of new rubber, yeah am fetish about these things. Let me tell you though...MPS4 smells distinct and freakishly addictive. Again, Michelin seems to have got the compound right and the smell is not as overzealous as MPSS from what I can recall.










On to the all important feel after turning the wheel...50 meters...that is all I needed to notice first trait...Comfort, yep these are really nice riding and has stayed that way up to today - some 50 days post fitment and 1,500 miles. The first drive immediately after fitment and it was wet; cold; and yet keeping to MAX speed limit on UK B-roads, I can feel the car is underneath me and am able to tell the improvements in ride comfort. If you need a set of tires for daily, these should be on the list as a replacement. I could not think of a better instant improvements to a platform than a set of well designed and delivered tire compound and the MPS4 are just that...an honest _heads & shoulders_ improvement over MPSS on wet tarmac for feel; comfort; handling; grip. Very impressed on the instant improvements. I have since completed 1,500 miles and these tires just get better with repeated heat cycle - admittedly at this time of the year here in the UK, it is wet and cold so you will not get that great amount of heat in the tires however on the odd warmer days we have had here with dry tarmac the feedback is very good...again, beats MPSS for me.










What I can tell you however is that all our data or benchmark on our test routes close to my Hampshire home have been eclipsed and by a margin over MPSS. On dry tarmac, one thing becomes apparent with these tires, brake too hard and you will be unseated easily. Find a series of bends and the fluidity I can now attack these makes me giggle...am finding there is that much grip in these tires on dry or wet tarmac over MPSS that I will certainly not go back to MPSS even if they were readily available. On speed traps at given corners where with MPSS we had to brake then apply throttle progressively mid corner...MPS4 requires none of that...just throttle through the series of bends, no need to brake ahead...just lower gearing to sit the rears down on throttle application and you will get grip; grip; grip...yes, the envelope has been increased over MPSS to the point that I wonder how good recently launched MPS4 S _(supposed to be the MPSS replacement)_ which is making its way over to North America. These are supposedly a step up from MPS4, claim is mainly for dry tarmac use with some comfort lost...I will try them later in the year and feedback what difference I note over a period of time.












For me and for now, if you are in the changeover window and can get a set of MPS4, worth considering over MPSS. If you are not, get out there and wear those MPSS tires out, you are missing out here...I promise!


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## as350 (Nov 8, 2011)

Thanks for the wet weather review, William. These new MPS4 tires will be my next purchase.


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## TunaTT (Oct 25, 2010)

William thanks for the assessment on the new Michelin tire. We (States) will be getting it soon and will definitely be my street and cold /wet track tire going forward. I have been using the MPSS pretty much from the time it was introduced going back to my first TT and continuing with the RS (I even have the original Toyo's with good tread still stored as I couldn't wait for them to ware out) and have been extremely pleased with the overall handling performance, ride, life, etc. so any improvement over them will be really nice and I'm looking forward to them.
On a side note I started tracking my RS last year (7 track days so far) and having a blast. I've been on your springs (was one of my first upgrades) and have been thinking about ordering some LS rears for the track, big difference?


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## 996cab (Aug 13, 2011)

TunaTT said:


> William thanks for the assessment on the new Michelin tire. We (States) will be getting it soon and will definitely be my street and cold /wet track tire going forward. I have been using the MPSS pretty much from the time it was introduced going back to my first TT and continuing with the RS (I even have the original Toyo's with good tread still stored as I couldn't wait for them to ware out) and have been extremely pleased with the overall handling performance, ride, life, etc. so any improvement over them will be really nice and I'm looking forward to them.
> On a side note I started tracking my RS last year (7 track days so far) and having a blast. I've been on your springs (was one of my first upgrades) and have been thinking about ordering some LS rears for the track, big difference?


Hi Mark...good to be back on forums amongst friends. MPS4 is really good. I note the US will get MPS4 S...so would be interesting to see what that is all about...my hunch is it would probably be the tire for the next few years to come if the MPS4 is anything to go by.

There is a noticeable difference with 'LS' especially in high speed stability which translates in to higher cornering phase speeds - ride comfort is firmer and may not suit poorly maintained roads so daily might be a compromise.

Andy (user as350) has experience with 'LS'...he will be a good person for feedback on US roads.

Now that I have MPS4 with the added comfort, am running 'LS' rear setup full time though with our street front - the combo works well for me.


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## TunaTT (Oct 25, 2010)

William, Thank you, appreciate the info. Was thinking that I would be swapping in the LS springs just for track events but will have experiment with leaving them in for DD.
Thanks again.


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## as350 (Nov 8, 2011)

TunaTT, I've had the LS track springs on my car since the very beginning. They shine on track as William mentioned and aren't bad at all on regular roads. The roads in my surrounding area are for the most part in good shape and therefore the ride is comfortable. The couple of times a year that I end up going to Portland or Seattle, though, I find myself paying very close attention to manhole covers, pot holes, fissures, etc. in the road surface and I'll try to avoid these surface imperfections because the ride becomes harsh. My TTRS isn't my daily so I have no issues leaving the LS springs on year round.


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## TunaTT (Oct 25, 2010)

as350, Appreciate the feedback. It sounds like a definite worthwhile option for the track, since I started tracking I've been working on improving everything that makes sense to assist with making the RS as capable as possible on the track and still have it be a great DD, knowing full well that Improving the Driver is the biggest key to the whole process. I will have to experiment with the LS springs for my DDriving as I DD mine a lot (750 miles a week) and my commute home each day has a few areas of so so road conditions (and getting a little rougher with all the rain we are experiencing this year) but we will have to see, worse case scenario I just would swap in the rears for track events, not a big deal/job. Thanks again.


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## S5Cab (Aug 5, 2012)

For tracking a TT with the magnaride shocks, you can't beat the 'LS' kit. The handling on the track is amazing, car rotates well and in a controlled manner, and I had no problems going LA to Buttonwillow for track days, and that's with a full containment race seat. With the stock seat and without the 1/2 cage, it would be fine as a daily driver.

For other suspension tweaks (after the usual RSB and competition Haldex controller), I'm really happy with the 034 MS rear control arms and spherical bushings for the trailing arms. It really tightens up the rear end. The bushings that get replaced are really squishy. I did not notice any increase in NVH from those mods. 

My TTS has now morphed into more of a dedicated track car. It's getting trailered to the the track now...

On my daily driver (S3) I have the MSS sport kit (non-adjustable front). After my experience with the TTS, I started bugging William about when it would be available. Guess I'll need to start bugging him again as I have my sights set on the new TT-RS (William - are you listening?).

Lake


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## 996cab (Aug 13, 2011)

S5Cab said:


> For tracking a TT with the magnaride shocks, you can't beat the 'LS' kit. The handling on the track is amazing, car rotates well and in a controlled manner, and I had no problems going LA to Buttonwillow for track days, and that's with a full containment race seat. With the stock seat and without the 1/2 cage, it would be fine as a daily driver.
> 
> For other suspension tweaks (after the usual RSB and competition Haldex controller), I'm really happy with the 034 MS rear control arms and spherical bushings for the trailing arms. It really tightens up the rear end. The bushings that get replaced are really squishy. I did not notice any increase in NVH from those mods.
> 
> ...


Ohh...now that am excited Lake, I can see us playing around again...I hear ya!


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## 996cab (Aug 13, 2011)

More update on these MPS4 tires - it is good up to 8 degrees centigrade temperatures...below and it is not as confidence inspiring. At 2 degrees centigrade grip drops off...easy to spin wheels in 1st or 2nd gear and coming to a roundabout a little too hot and you got to keep your concentration level up as the car snakes then slides. These are definitely not for colder temps. I will hazard a guess that the true MPSS replacement in MPS4 S would likely fare the same.

Am testing so we do things beyond what we are supposed to mainly to get first hand experience. So if the outside temps drop to below 8 degrees centigrade you really do not want to be on these tires or at best apply throttle with caution as these tires do need a little bit of heat or seemingly ambient above 8 degrees to inspire confidence.

Also one thing I have not mentioned is stock alignment - I have been testing the MPS4 with the Audi stock alignment recommendation all round and car feels pretty much like front end has TOE OUT...I like that trait of these tires because potentially this will help with tire life especially on inner or outer edges which suffer with TOE OUT of high negative camber.

I also note that I still have to run 30PSI on the front axle though stock 26PSI on rears. Nowt much to read in to that however car felt fine with the stock 32PSI on the front axle however I have always preferred less pressures on the fronts mainly to fractionally slow down steering speed or add a hairline of steering weight...works for me so perhaps don't read too much in to this here.

Something I note also is that on the MPSS I in fact always went 30.5PSI and 26.5PSI, both cold pressures, because I found the tires always lost a little bit of pressure when sat around for a couple of weeks or so. Anyway, the MPS4 has not lost any of the tire pressures for the short time I have undertaken same testing...again, too early to tell as I have only had these tires for 2 months so we shall see if they retain pressures for longer.

Still really liking MPS4 for ride comfort; ability to brake at the very last minute with absolute confidence in the wet at these low temps here in the UK and I can only imagine how good MPS4 S may be...I think you guys are going to be spoilt of these new rubber especially for the track guys.


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## TunaTT (Oct 25, 2010)

S5Cab said:


> For tracking a TT with the magnaride shocks, you can't beat the 'LS' kit. The handling on the track is amazing, car rotates well and in a controlled manner, and I had no problems going LA to Buttonwillow for track days, and that's with a full containment race seat. With the stock seat and without the 1/2 cage, it would be fine as a daily driver.
> 
> For other suspension tweaks (after the usual RSB and competition Haldex controller), I'm really happy with the 034 MS rear control arms and spherical bushings for the trailing arms. It really tightens up the rear end. The bushings that get replaced are really squishy. I did not notice any increase in NVH from those mods.
> 
> ...


Agree on the 034 spherical trailing arm bushings, tighten up the rear nicely. I'm also using their aluminum rear subframe mount inserts, not as big of an improvement but did tighten up the rear further, extremely easy to install, no additional NVH and low cost, kind of a no brainer mod. Ordered a set of th LS rear springs today, looks like a bit of a wait but sounds like a worthwhile upgrade and looking forward to my first track day once I receive them.


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## S5Cab (Aug 5, 2012)

TunaTT said:


> Agree on the 034 spherical trailing arm bushings, tighten up the rear nicely. I'm also using their aluminum rear subframe mount inserts, not as big of an improvement but did tighten up the rear further, extremely easy to install, no additional NVH and low cost, kind of a no brainer mod. Ordered a set of th LS rear springs today, looks like a bit of a wait but sounds like a worthwhile upgrade and looking forward to my first track day once I receive them.


I have the TyrolSport Deadset rear sub-frame collars on the rear, do you know if these would work with the inserts? 034 never replied to my question.

Lake


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

S5Cab said:


> I have the TyrolSport Deadset rear sub-frame collars on the rear, do you know if these would work with the inserts? 034 never replied to my question.
> 
> Lake


Looking at the install pics for the Deadset collars I believe you'll be able to keep the subframe to chassis inserts in place. The lower side collars, that center the bolt head against the subframe will probably not work with the 034 inserts. I think the bolt hole for the 034 inserts is going to be a different diameter than the deadset collars.

The 034 inserts are really effective though and I think worth the trade-off.


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## TunaTT (Oct 25, 2010)

JohnLZ7W said:


> Looking at the install pics for the Deadset collars I believe you'll be able to keep the subframe to chassis inserts in place. The lower side collars, that center the bolt head against the subframe will probably not work with the 034 inserts. I think the bolt hole for the 034 inserts is going to be a different diameter than the deadset collars.
> 
> The 034 inserts are really effective though and I think worth the trade-off.


Lake, I agree with John even if the lower center collars won't fit the 034 inserts they would likely be worth it, I definitely could tell a difference. You might even be able to modify the insert or collars to work together. At I beleive $120.00 they are pretty inexpensive especially when you consider what many of us spend on improving our cars.


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