# No grill on the Beetle Turbo?



## lmgarza85 (Mar 27, 2014)

I have a Beetle Turbo with an APR stage 1 ECU upgrade and a VWR intake plus APR stage 2 pipe (just for looks). I noticed that when I would really floor it from a complete stop or low speed, the boost gauge would fluctuate a little when it got the the 25 PSI range and it would go away once I got out of 3rd gear or so. It was also more noticeable when it was hot, I live in Houston so by hot I mean 100+ degrees. I didn't think too much of it, but one day I was driving to work and the cars response was noticeably improved while trying to pass up cars on the freeway. I came to a stop, floored it, and I was surprised at how smoothly the boost built up. I thought that maybe it had magically fixed itself, but then when I parked the car I found out why.

Earlier that day I was going to check something on the car and so I popped the hood, but then I got sidetracked and I forgot all about it and took off. I drove 35 miles on my way to work with my hood open!!!!!!!! 

I got to thinkin' and it made some sense. More air coming in would smooth things out since the car doesn't have a grill and it only gets air through the little sliver under the hood, which is OK if your already rolling or in a stock car. But if your chipped and have a big enclosed intake, it has to suck air in through that little slit. The car must feel like its sucking air through a straw that the end partially covered. My solution was to buy some little plastic 1/2" spacers and longer bolts and stuck the spacers behind the latch plate that goes on the hood. This way the hood stays open about 3/4" when you fully latch it. Kinda like the hood on a GT2 Porsche. It sounds crazy but it does work. I only go to 100 mph though, anything else seems like I'm asking for trouble.

My question is weather or not this would happen if I had an open style intake, like a Unitronic or a 42 Draft Designs system.
Let me know what you guys think and if anyone else has even tried this.

Thanks in advance.


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## hisbabyf (May 15, 2013)

I have the same thoughts as you, but am still thinking hard if I want to create a funnel opening on my bumper/fog or create a funnel from the normal grill opening. Will be interesting to know what others have done before I go to the next stage


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## VWNDAHS (Jun 20, 2002)

sounds like heat soak, which intercooler did you upgrade to?


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## lmgarza85 (Mar 27, 2014)

VWNDAHS said:


> sounds like heat soak, which intercooler did you upgrade to?


Still have the stock intercooler. I didn't think I needed to upgrade it since I was only doing a stage 1 for now. I was planning on upgrading it when I installed a TBE and got a stage 2 tune.


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## VWNDAHS (Jun 20, 2002)

well the issue you're mentioning is heat soak no? Not sure altering the front end will be more effective than a more efficient intercooler.


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## lmgarza85 (Mar 27, 2014)

VWNDAHS said:


> well the issue you're mentioning is heat soak no? Not sure altering the front end will be more effective than a more efficient intercooler.


A buddy of mine wants to buy my VWR intake so I'll probably get a 42 DD system and see if it helps to confirm my theory. If not then the intercooler upgrade will definitely be an option. Either way I think it's important to address this before I go to stage 2.


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## Chillout (Apr 29, 2009)

lmgarza85 said:


> A buddy of mine wants to buy my VWR intake so I'll probably get a 42 DD system and see if it helps to confirm my theory. If not then the intercooler upgrade will definitely be an option. Either way I think it's important to address this before I go to stage 2.




I have thought about your theory as well... it's such a small slit where the car has to suck his air. I turned my intake in a ram-air intake, and I think it could benefit if the opening was larger. Keep us on your test results! I might make some changes to my current intake if your test turns out to prove the slit is not giving enough air. (and it's not a heatsoak problem)


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## lmgarza85 (Mar 27, 2014)

*Update!!!*

I came across some pics of the rallycross beetle and it looks like they went and stole my idea!!! OK so probably not, but it does look like they did alter the same opening that i did. These guys obviously have more resources than the average joe so it looks like they have a custom hood made that is just a tad shorter which I think is what helps mine out allot too. It also appears that they put a cut out right above where the air box is. If they're running a open filter and not a ram air type then that would probably make a big difference too.





















You can really see the gap in the close up pic, and now I really want that hood!!!!!!!


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## Chillout (Apr 29, 2009)

I had a look at my "grille" today. See the following image:










The part indicated in red is "useless space". It is in the high pressure area, but isn't really of much use, other than directing air to the small hole.
The part indicated in green is on the inside of the grille, and it makes the intake hole smaller than it looks from the outside! Probably to create some kind of turbulence-free airflow or something? Either way, this part is quite big and is part of the bumper insides, and cannot be taken out easily to provide a bigger "breathing-hole".

Here are the possible options for improvement as I see them:
- dremel out the green part on the inside of the grille
- dremel out the red part too, and make sure there's a "trumpet" behind it, leading directly to the intake
- close the intake and divert a cold-air-hose from the lower grille area towards the filter.

Opinions are welcome!


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## Vwguy026 (May 1, 2013)

I might be mistaken but I could have sworn that I read someone that the piece there your describing actually can be removed...


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

You may want to run logs first with the hood on and then with the hood off and air filter exposed. This way you don't waste your time if it's not worth it. My maf readings have been very close to gti readings so I'm trusting the vw engineers did plenty of testing to know just how much gap on the hood to leave for enough air. 

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## lmgarza85 (Mar 27, 2014)

Chillout said:


> I had a look at my "grille" today. See the following image:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I removed the piece. It was pretty easy. Then I also took of the ram air part of my VWR intake and made it into an improvised open filter system. I reset the fuel trims and the difference is quite noticeable. It sounds allot better too. I think open air is definitely the way to go if you have a beetle. Now I'm going to get a proper open air system, but I like the foam filter versus a cotton one. I wonder if anyone makes a quality open intake that uses a foam filter.


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## Chillout (Apr 29, 2009)

lmgarza85 said:


> I removed the piece. It was pretty easy. Then I also took of the ram air part of my VWR intake and made it into an improvised open filter system. I reset the fuel trims and the difference is quite noticeable. It sounds allot better too. I think open air is definitely the way to go if you have a beetle. Now I'm going to get a proper open air system, but I like the foam filter versus a cotton one. I wonder if anyone makes a quality open intake that uses a foam filter.


wow, got any pictures of that?


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## lmgarza85 (Mar 27, 2014)

Chillout said:


> wow, got any pictures of that?


I do but I cant upload them. I can send them to you if you'd like. Maybe you could post them?


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## Chillout (Apr 29, 2009)

lmgarza85 said:


> I do but I cant upload them. I can send them to you if you'd like. Maybe you could post them?


Thanks, that would be cool.

I sent you a PM with my email address.


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## Chillout (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm really curious.. how did you reset fuel trims?


here are the pictures of the removed grille-piece:
(sorry if they're too large!


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## Vwguy026 (May 1, 2013)

You know what's funny I'm on vacation right now visiting some friends and haven't seen a single gen 2 beetle here in Texas. Now I have in these pictures


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## lmgarza85 (Mar 27, 2014)

I just ordered this for my Beetle today. I went with the black piping though. Everything is finished off cleanly, it addresses the SAI so I don't have some other little breather filter zip tied and hanging off somewhere, it's all one piece which looks better and may or may not smooth out air flow,and I like that the MAF is tucked away underneath as a bonus. I know allot of guys will say that its just a filter on a stick, but I don't really buy allot of the typical arguments that are thrown at me regarding intakes.

Heat retention: Even if the pipe itself is hot, it's being fed fresh air constantly and it will take that air less than half a second to go from the filter to the turbo. I seriously doubt that the minimal air temp. increase, if any at all, will have a noticeable affect on performance.

No Heat shield: Pretty much the same reason, and the intercooler will cool the air before it goes in the engine.

I'm not knocking on anyone who went out and bought a carbonio, I bought a part of it too. But in all honesty, the pipe doesn't fit all that well. It makes you use the factory hose clamp on the turbo which is too big and you get scrunching when you tighten it down. Plus the fitting to attach the PCV hose is very rough and the connection isn't tight.

Bottom line is that I really think that an open filter intake is better for The Beetle. Most of these intakes are designed for the GTI and I'm sure they work fine, but our car are different and I have tried both styles. I didn't even need to run logs, I could feel the car breathing better.

I hope this system looks exactly like the pics and that everything fits nice and tight. Other than that I have no doubts about it performing better than my previous setup.


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## lmgarza85 (Mar 27, 2014)

Chillout said:


> I'm really curious.. how did you reset fuel trims?
> 
> 
> here are the pictures of the removed grille-piece:
> (sorry if they're too large!


You just unplug your battery for 15 to 30 minutes and it resets them. I do it every time I do a performance upgrade. It usually wastes a tank of gas while it's learning and adjusting everything, but after that the mileage gets better.


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## Chillout (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks for the tip 

I'll try this mod next month, first she needs some service...


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## lmgarza85 (Mar 27, 2014)

Chillout said:


> Thanks for the tip
> 
> I'll try this mod next month, first she needs some service...



I just installed my new Injen intake and I really like it. Everything looks like its good quality, nice aggressive sound, and the piping in black has blueish metallic tint to it, just like the paint on the car itself. I'm very happy with it. I also installed a Spulen extreme dog bone mount insert, but I think 95A durometer is a little too extreme. I'm going to give it a couple hundred miles to break in. If not I'm going to opt for a softer one.


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## oidoglr (Jan 26, 2009)

lmgarza85 said:


> I just installed my new Injen intake and I really like it. Everything looks like its good quality, nice aggressive sound, and the piping in black has blueish metallic tint to it, just like the paint on the car itself. I'm very happy with it. I also installed a Spulen extreme dog bone mount insert, but I think 95A durometer is a little too extreme. I'm going to give it a couple hundred miles to break in. If not I'm going to opt for a softer one.


Post pictures!

How much did it cost you?


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## Chillout (Apr 29, 2009)

If you want me to upload pictures again, just send them to my email like last time


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## lmgarza85 (Mar 27, 2014)

oidoglr said:


> Post pictures!
> 
> How much did it cost you?


I got it for $240 from a website called new level motorsports. It was the cheapest I could find.


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## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

lmgarza85 said:


> I just installed my new Injen intake and I really like it. Everything looks like its good quality, nice aggressive sound, and the piping in black has blueish metallic tint to it, just like the paint on the car itself. I'm very happy with it. I also installed a Spulen extreme dog bone mount insert, but I think 95A durometer is a little too extreme. I'm going to give it a couple hundred miles to break in. If not I'm going to opt for a softer one.


I just installed the HPA 75a Core Interlock mount and I really like it. It is a Solid Mount which replaces the lower dogbone mount instead of just being an insert. 
Removing the old mount was a pain and took about an hour but it was well worth it. Only took 5 minutes or less to pop the HPA mount in and bolt it down to 36 ft lbs plus 1/4 turn.
Started her up and to my surprise there was no added vibrations whatsoever. Feels pretty much stock at idle and even reverse and with the A/C on. Took her down the street and drivability is
about the same which shifts being nice and crisp. I didn't really test out the WheelHop part since it was getting late and I was in a crowded neighborhood. I will test that out tomorrow and
see if it has reduced my massive wheel hop I have launching off the line especially with the traction control off.


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## Chillout (Apr 29, 2009)




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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

So is it actually running any better like that? I just worry about all the crap I'm gonna have to clean by having it that open lol

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## Chillout (Apr 29, 2009)

The newer VW's will have a grille that will automatically close on higher speeds, to decrease drag. I hope this doesn't increase drag.
But looking at it, it's an improvement... the radiator is less covered by the bumper too


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## lmgarza85 (Mar 27, 2014)

IndyTTom said:


> I just installed the HPA 75a Core Interlock mount and I really like it. It is a Solid Mount which replaces the lower dogbone mount instead of just being an insert.
> Removing the old mount was a pain and took about an hour but it was well worth it. Only took 5 minutes or less to pop the HPA mount in and bolt it down to 36 ft lbs plus 1/4 turn.
> Started her up and to my surprise there was no added vibrations whatsoever. Feels pretty much stock at idle and even reverse and with the A/C on. Took her down the street and drivability is
> about the same which shifts being nice and crisp. I didn't really test out the WheelHop part since it was getting late and I was in a crowded neighborhood. I will test that out tomorrow and
> see if it has reduced my massive wheel hop I have launching off the line especially with the traction control off.


I was looking into getting an HPA mount but there are so many other things I could buy at that price point. I went with an insert because it was so cheap and if I didn't like it it would be no big deal. That said, I will definitely go with the HPA when I get a little more power in the car. It just looks like the best choice, and the VWR one is ridiculously expensive.


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## lmgarza85 (Mar 27, 2014)

drtechy said:


> So is it actually running any better like that? I just worry about all the crap I'm gonna have to clean by having it that open lol
> 
> posted using tapatalk


I'm holding off on my conclusion because although the car is running great, unplugging the battery while I installed the intake messed up my tune. Now I have to go get it reflashed, which might not be too bad since I had the very first version of the software. Maybe they have updated it or something. As far as the cover being removed, I noticed temperatures staying a little cooler, and I don't see it getting too dirty. Maybe just some dust and sand but nothing major. If you look at it with the cover on, pretty much half of your condenser/radiator/intercooler is blocked off. I'm no mechanic, but don't these parts use air flowing through them to keep temperatures down? One thing is for sure, I really need to put some armorall or something on the plastic in that area and on my rain guard. Its lookin' a little faded.


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## lmgarza85 (Mar 27, 2014)

Update: I still haven't gotten the reflash done, that will probably be tomorrow. This week was the first full tank of gas since my last mods were done and I got 140 miles on a quarter tank in mixed driving with some heavy traffic. My previous record was 118, and I track milage meticulously. Maybe it has nothing to do with the mods but still pretty good.


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## lmgarza85 (Mar 27, 2014)

Update: I didn't need a reflash after all. I got locked out of the system, so all I had to do was enter my security code again and that was it. I'm not sure if it's the intake or having the front cover removed, but the car is running great and I drove for 440 miles when my range hit 0. That is by far the most I have ever gotten out of my car, and it was with some pretty heavy traffic now and then. I also got used to the Spullen insert. It kind of helps you out because it only vibrates if your take off isn't dead on. Now I take off with a little more throttle and I am able to release the clutch at just the right pace so I'm not over reving, it's actually pretty cool. Next week should be pretty nice. I should be getting my H&R springs, new spark plugs and coil packs (got a code for a misfire on cylinders 1 and 2), and hopefully a new APR sway bar. Nothing to do with this thread, but I'm pretty excited.


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## Chillout (Apr 29, 2009)

Okay, how about this?

I compared pictures of the bumper with and without the grille part, and came to this conclusion:

We could probably benefit if the "useless" areas are still shielded, while other parts of the bumper part are dremeled out (see the red markings I' ve made in the mockup picture of this.
As you can see, underneath the part there are some parts that can benefit from extra air, while other parts are still kept out of the wind, to make sure it flows to the useful places. the version without this part would probably have a little bit more air resistance.


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

Has anyone run any logs to see if opening these actually makes a difference in IAT's or anything else? I'm down to do it, but if it doesn't make a difference then I rather just not have to break the clips again to get it off lol


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

Chillout said:


> Okay, how about this?
> 
> I compared pictures of the bumper with and without the grille part, and came to this conclusion:
> 
> ...


There is a video on Youtube where these two mechanical geeks go thru a plethora of ways to
get more extra air generated and after all was said and done, they concluded that there was
no worthy amount of power increase.


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## Chillout (Apr 29, 2009)

drtechy: fuel consumption went down from 11,1km/l to 12,0km/l (average on 1 day, same trips, same weather). Intake temperature went down for about 0,4degrees celcius. Not much, but it doesn't harm 

ridgemanron: I agree... although with this modification it's not about extra air but about extra cooling on the radiator/intercooler bits that were otherwise covered by the bumper part. This should lead to lower intake temperatures


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

Chillout said:


> drtechy: fuel consumption went down from 11,1km/l to 12,0km/l (average on 1 day, same trips, same weather). Intake temperature went down for about 0,4degrees celcius. Not much, but it doesn't harm
> 
> ridgemanron: I agree... although with this modification it's not about extra air but about extra cooling on the radiator/intercooler bits that were otherwise covered by the bumper part. This should lead to lower intake temperatures


I remember the two 'geeks' on Youtube trying to find if more air would transfer into a hp gain that many
cold air intakes claim to be able to do.


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## lmgarza85 (Mar 27, 2014)

ridgemanron said:


> I remember the two 'geeks' on Youtube trying to find if more air would transfer into a hp gain that many
> cold air intakes claim to be able to do.


I've seen that video and I have some doubts. First off, they don't reset the fuel trims or anything like that after they do any of the mods. The car could have been stock or chipped, who knows. Maybe it genuinely didn't need an intake if it was stock but a chipped car would probably benefit more. The dyno is great but in real world driving with the car generating real heat and the aerodynamics of the wind coming into play, not just a fan in the front of the car blowing air into it, I think the intake does make a difference. It is unquestionably more efficient when it comes to fuel consumption.

Basically, if your going to do a test that is perfectly cool, but I think you have to have controls that are more comprehensive. You have to give the ECU time to adjust, and you have to drive it on the street. It might not make a huge difference in peak horsepower, but it can help with power throughout the rev range. I think every little bit helps when you are modding your car.

I'm about to go stage 2, I just ordered my TBE yesterday and I will also be getting uprated boost piping. It's allot of money and if I'm lucky It might get me close to 20 extra horsepower, which isn't allot. But the power will be there earlier and stick around longer, and my turbo will have less resistance which should turn into a smoother more powerful ride. The peak power is no good if you just have it available from 6,000 to 6,5000 RPMs, so while these mods may not have a huge impact on peak power figures, I would not call them a waste of time and money just for that reason. (Mighty Car Mods, I'm looking at you!)


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## Chillout (Apr 29, 2009)

lmgarza85 said:


> I'm about to go stage 2, I just ordered my TBE yesterday and I will also be getting uprated boost piping. It's allot of money and if I'm lucky It might get me close to 20 extra horsepower, which isn't allot. But the power will be there earlier and stick around longer, and my turbo will have less resistance which should turn into a smoother more powerful ride. The peak power is no good if you just have it available from 6,000 to 6,5000 RPMs, so while these mods may not have a huge impact on peak power figures, I would not call them a waste of time and money just for that reason. (Mighty Car Mods, I'm looking at you!)


*takes out the Dremel and starts modding that front part*

I also found that removing any noise isolation on the supercharger and tubing gave me a great improvement in intake temperatures. But that's a 1.4TSI thing


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## lmgarza85 (Mar 27, 2014)

Chillout said:


> *takes out the Dremel and starts modding that front part*
> 
> I also found that removing any noise isolation on the supercharger and tubing gave me a great improvement in intake temperatures. But that's a 1.4TSI thing


We don't have that here so you confused me for a second when you said supercharger. I will have to break out the Dremel now though, it make more sense to have the cover on and not have so much turbulence under the hood. Thanks for following up, I thought this post was dead!!


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## Chillout (Apr 29, 2009)

no thanks man. You just made me curious and got me thinking 
I'm going to make my grille "chilled out" too, next weekend :laugh:


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## Chillout (Apr 29, 2009)

I threw up this schematic, because a lot of people seem to doubt this mod:








Red: Airbox
Pink: Air Filter
Black: visible outside of the bumper
Grey: inner parts, keeping blue airflow from reaching the intake
Green arrow: the regular air flow through the thin slit
Blue arrow: the new situation with additional airflow.


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

Chillout said:


> I threw up this schematic, because a lot of people seem to doubt this mod:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The only reason I doubt it is because there is no numbers to back it up. Literally hundreds of products and ideas hit the market every day claiming to have increased efficiency, HP, etc, but never offer proof. Get some logs posted showing the difference and I guarantee no one can doubt you.


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## Chillout (Apr 29, 2009)

I agree... numbers are worth a lot! 


I had to be sure, and made some measurements today.
I was stunned by the results, since they seem to be quite logical and almost too perfect (on average across the entire range they are almost exactly the same!!!!)
Temperature on Y axis, difference from the ambient temperature. Speed on X asis. I'm using Degrees Celcius for temperature and Kilometers per Hour.
I did several runs with each set up and averaged. 
Two cases: with the part, without the part.










As you can see, at lower speeds, "without" is better. At higher speeds, "with" is better, when it comes to supplying cold air to the intake. In other words: the flow towards the intake might be hampered on higher speeds without this lid.

NB: I tested with my closed, home made intake. Results might differ on stock intakes.
I haven't tested it with the dremeled version of the lid...

Conclusion: keep the lid on if you drive at higher speeds.
Keep the lid off if you drive at lower speeds.

After doing some research, I found out VW also knows about this: they implemented an auto-closing grille on the newer models. It closes at higher speeds.


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