# Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

I've been working on the designs for this project for a while now, so I figure it might be time to release some info. The car is an 81 Forest Green Metallic (non-S) that originally had beige interior. I swapped in a black interior, 16V, quaiffe diff, koni yellows, megasquirt, and eventually ITBs. Some may remember the car from the engine change it received in the parking lot at waterfest a few years ago.
Anyways, I've been only slightly in the VW world for the last few years due to the my management of a formula SAE team at the university. Learned lots and ended up designing a wicked 500lbs 4wd(mit Haldex) GSXR600 powered single seater. 0-60 in about 3.1 seconds.








but after a run with that, I missed my scirocco. having toasted the 16V, i thought about turbo 16V, or even better would be a 1.8T. But they all lack the fun factor when front wheels start spinning. Lo and behold, a VR6 pops into the equation. Having studied vehicle dynamics, I know that it certainly does not belong in the front of a mk1. However, with most of the weight ahead of the axle line, it could make for a nice mid engine car. Of course, the bias will be to the rear, but not as severe.
So this is the car:








And this is the engine:








The transmission:








This is where it will go: 









I am currently working at the university now, so I have access to lots of software and tools. I've been modelling parts in UGS NX4.0 either directly or by taking CMM measurements into Rhinocerous3D and importing the wireframe. I'm using SuspProg3D to design the suspension kinematics.
The engine is a VR6 from a 93 passat. I tore it down, except for the pistons and crank, and removed the ring ridge. It was an automatic and would likely have shifted at a low rpm and the ridge was pretty bad. I'm planning on a proper rebuild over the winter, so the head won't see any work either. Aquired the following parts:
- complete timing chain kit
- metal head gasket
- all new seals
- new head bolts
- new crack pipe
- lightened the flywheel
- unorthodox pulley clones (crank and alt pulley)
- 268 Cat cams
The exhaust will be a proper dual setup with an x-pipe muffer. Not much lenthwise, but something sideways under the rear floorpan should work. 
The transmission is an ACN with a 5th gear conversion. It was pulled apart when I got it, and I'm waiting for the peloquin diff I've ordered to arrive before I start reassembling it. It should be here today or tomorrow. It was on back-order for the last month!
The plan is to use the Passat VR6 subframe front and rear. The front subframe ends up fairly close to the rear trailing arm mounts, which should be good for rigidity. I'm putting alot of work in the design phase to reduce the amount of rear floor pan I have to cut out to maintain chassis stiffness. I'll add a roll bar and braces as well which makes a convenient location to mount the firewall.
For the back hubs/brakes I'll useassat 16V spindles, diesel passat 10.1 solid rotors, Wilwood Dynalite Calipers, Hawk pads. I'll have to make an adapter for the spindle to mount an upper ball joint to a custom upper A-arm. The lower a-arm will be Passat VR6 but sectioned to the right length for now. In the future i'll probably upgrade to the H2Sports spherical bearing in a custom lower A-arm. The axles will be Scirocco 16V, which will add 1.2" to the rear track. My wheels were tucked under too far anyways, since I have the Zender wheel flares.

Shifting is another issue, and I may resort to some of the pneumatic components we used on the FSAE car to make a flappy-paddle gearbox.
Here are some pics of the design process:


----------



## GotKraut (Dec 3, 2004)

OMG! another one! hahahaha you are the second MKI MRVR6 build here now








Goood luck and give us lots of updates!!


----------



## webthread (Mar 25, 2004)

*Re: (GotKraut)*

jiminy crickets!


----------



## polov8 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (BennyB)*









If this is the VR6 shown in the rear of the mk1, then isn't the engine backwards? 
5 Reverse gears?????








Looks like you know what you're doing, so I'll shut up. Grreat looking CAD btw http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Throttlepimp (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (BennyB)*








That is Baaaaad Assssss.


----------



## Michael Bee (Nov 4, 2004)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (Throttlepimp)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Throttlepimp* »_







That is Baaaaad Assssss.

hey.. smell my finger








.
.
.
.
.
a VRsix Mk1?? daaaaaaaaamn!! do it!! doitdoitdoitdoitdoit


----------



## Throttlepimp (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (eight-zero scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eight-zero scirocco* »_
hey.. smell my finger








.
.
.
.
.
a VRsix Mk1?? daaaaaaaaamn!! do it!! doitdoitdoitdoitdoit









IHNLOLSHAAPIML
I have never laughed out loud so hard at a post in my life.


----------



## MK1Scirocco1980 (Nov 9, 2002)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (polov8)*


_Quote, originally posted by *polov8* »_








If this is the VR6 shown in the rear of the mk1, then isn't the engine backwards? 
5 Reverse gears?????








Looks like you know what you're doing, so I'll shut up. Grreat looking CAD btw http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


Thats bitchin' NX4? that the name of that?
I'm gonna have to get a copy of it me thinks.
-Rob


----------



## polov8 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (MK1Scirocco1980)*

I just realised the rear struts on a Scirocco point forward at the top so ignore my stupid question, I'll try and be awake when posting in future


----------



## MK1roccin77 (Jun 17, 2004)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (BennyB)*

holy awesomeness! Can you do mine next???


----------



## G-rocco (Sep 11, 2004)

Only thing is... it needs to be an .:R32 motor... <evil grin>


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: (G-rocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *G-rocco* »_Only thing is... it needs to be an .:R32 motor... <evil grin>

actually... the plan is to eventually go bi-turbo with a pair of K03s for a quick spool up.


----------



## Throttlepimp (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_
actually... the plan is to eventually go bi-turbo with a pair of K03s for a quick spool up.


Whoa.


----------



## CanadianRocco (Apr 16, 2005)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (BennyB)*

sweeet!!!!!! I've always dreamed about doing the same thing!! (...and have designed the engine setup for the 2006 U of A FSAE team... 500cc kawasaki 500R turbo, watch out!!). Progress looks awsome so far!! keep the pics rollin.


----------



## gamblinfool (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: (BennyB)*

You go boy! 
Now scrap your Synchro wagon and throw that driveline into the mix!! J/K - I bow down...


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Better View*

This might give a better indication of layout. I'm familiar with all the parts and its sometimes even confusing to me.


----------



## Throttlepimp (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: Better View (BennyB)*

In that pic is the front of the car at the top?


_Modified by Throttlepimp at 10:14 AM 5-31-2006_


----------



## kenny_blankenship (Feb 19, 2005)

*Re: Better View (Throttlepimp)*

yes it is. you can tell by where the spare tire well is.


----------



## PoVolks (Oct 2, 2003)

*Re: Better View (kenny_blankenship)*

There is a thread in the MkIII forum here on the vortex where a company Wentworth (i think) is doing a MR VR6 MkIII. They have posted pictures for nearly all the steps- if you could use any of the info its still an active thread... check it out mang!
awesome idea, BTW http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Better View (Sciroccist)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sciroccist* »_There is a thread in the MkIII forum here on the vortex where a company Wentworth (i think) is doing a MR VR6 MkIII. They have posted pictures for nearly all the steps- if you could use any of the info its still an active thread... check it out mang!
awesome idea, BTW http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

holy crap! 2200 posts. that was alot to sift through.
13" brakes in the rear?







no wonder he had to buy proportioning valves. According to my calcs there will be 65% front brake bias required, and thats with a rough guess of 40/60 weight split.
Alot of other good ideas though.


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: Better View (BennyB)*

With all of the time you spent on the drawings, you could have done the swap!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Better View (patatron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_With all of the time you spent on the drawings, you could have done the swap!









Possibly, but then I wouldn't be getting paid for it. I was 'evaluating' the new CAD software at work.








I have a few logistical issues before I can go ripping into sheetmetal. Need a portable garage or something. I was quite naive thinking I could survive without a garage when I bought the house last year.








Bought a 5hp twin-cyl compressor last week, so I've got the air shears ready to go. Got my mig welder handle fixed, so thats good too. I'm going to try and find a plasma cutter to borrow, since I think it would save me a whole heap of time. Also got an 8" 5/8hp bench grinder, since my old 6" 1/4hp one just doesn't cut it anymore.


















_Modified by BennyB at 9:58 AM 6-1-2006_


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Diff (BennyB)*

Finally got the syncro safetied on the 4th try. Damn picky mechanics!








Which is good, because the diff came in. Now I can start reassembling the transmission.


----------



## 18turbo13 (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Diff (BennyB)*

how did you get the dimensioning for the wheel arches and trunk and for that matter all the motor also, i have done 3d cad, and those drawings are the shiiitt. Must have taken forever. Just curious.. thanks


----------



## Throttlepimp (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: Diff (18turbo13)*


_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_With all of the time you spent on the drawings, you could have done the swap!










_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_Possibly, but then I wouldn't be getting paid for it. I was 'evaluating' the new CAD software at work.










_Quote, originally posted by *18turbo13* »_how did you get the dimensioning for the wheel arches and trunk and for that matter all the motor also, i have done 3d cad, and those drawings are the shiiitt. Must have taken forever. Just curious.. thanks

Looks like he programed it in himself!!!
I also work in cad the engine model is what impressed me!
Here's to you BennyB.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Diff (Throttlepimp)*

I definitely had some help with an Immersion Microscribe G2X









accurate to 0.009"
I managed to sneak it home for a weekend to do the wheel arches and the engine block.
Rather than scan a point cloud I draw lines, arcs, and circles for the defining features. I can then use them as a guide for creating a solid model.


----------



## Throttlepimp (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: Diff (BennyB)*

Nice equipment...._cheater_.


----------



## kenny_blankenship (Feb 19, 2005)

*Re: Diff (BennyB)*

I think VWvortex is one of the only interesting things I use my computer for, and most would consider VWvortex rather boring. I guess I do lead a rather pathetic existence.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Diff (Throttlepimp)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Throttlepimp* »_Nice equipment...._cheater_.









i did this one before I had access to the microscribe and using I-DEAS 12NX. it has an odd 3deg slant on the end that made it a real pain to model. 











_Modified by BennyB at 11:41 PM 6-3-2006_


----------



## polov8 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: Diff (kenny_blankenship)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kenny_blankenship* »_ I guess I do lead a rather pathetic existence.

x2








I want a probey thing! That thing kicks butt!!!!!


----------



## Falcor (May 26, 2004)

*Re: Diff (polov8)*

Andy, you should know better than to mention the words probe and butt in this forum....now we'll see all kinds of weird posts....


----------



## 18turbo13 (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Diff (Falcor)*






















to you, awesome work... good to see that someone isnt' throwing some angle iron in the back and slapping a motor in. This will obviously be done correctly and professionally.


----------



## saildude88 (Apr 11, 2006)

that sounds wicked! good luck with the project.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Diff (polov8)*


_Quote, originally posted by *polov8* »_x2








I want a probey thing! That thing kicks butt!!!!!









They have a laser add-on available now. I don't think i can convince anyone at work that we need it though.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Update*

after a brief weekend vacation away, I'm back to organizing again. Almost got things in the right place with room to work again.
Spent over an hour cleaning the subframe. Definitely had alot of sludge on the passenger side which is good (in a way) because it kept it from rusting too badly.
Took some pictures on the weekend and some measurements of the frame rails at the back. I've got a better idea how things are arranged down there now.








Also checked the clearance of the caliper and the rim with the 10.1" solid rotors. Looks like it will be no problem. 








This is what my scirocco looks like on 13x6 panasports. the back looks reasonable, but the front is really odd with all the clearance. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 








Next steps are to:
-clean up block deck surface
-paint block
-start reassembly 
-model subframe
-model a-arm
-finish suspension calculations
Ben


----------



## Throttlepimp (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE (BennyB)*

What material are you going to use to make the models?
Woot! Page duex!


_Modified by Throttlepimp at 9:42 PM 6-6-2006_


----------



## gamblinfool (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: UPDATE (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_This is what my scirocco looks like on 13x6 panasports. the back looks reasonable, but the front is really odd with all the clearance. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 









Just a shot in the dark, but if you decide you want to sell those P-sports, let me know!


----------



## GotKraut (Dec 3, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE (gamblinfool)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gamblinfool* »_
Just a shot in the dark, but if you decide you want to sell those P-sports, let me know!









ya, wtf those are soo "hot" right now...everyone seems to be running them...not to say they arent hot, its just soo "the wheels" right now


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: UPDATE (gamblinfool)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gamblinfool* »_Just a shot in the dark, but if you decide you want to sell those P-sports, let me know!









I thought if they stayed in my shed long enough that they would be forgotten about. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case and the race team wanted them back. 
As for an update: it was a busy week at work, but I managed to use my lunch hours to machine the flywheel. they're 17-18lbs stock, and I got it down to 11.0lbs without compromising strength. In fact, I think it will be stronger, since I smoothed out the cast section on the backside which would be prone to cracking. Now i just have to make a bearing mount so that I can balance it. Its a thin enough section that I think I should be fine with a static balance job. I'll get some pictures next week when I get it home.


----------



## Throttlepimp (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_...they're 17-18lbs stock, and I got it down to 11.0lbs...

Thats quite a shave.


----------



## gamblinfool (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: UPDATE (GotKraut)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GotKraut* »_ya, wtf those are soo "hot" right now...everyone seems to be running them...not to say they arent hot, its just soo "the wheels" right now

I hate played-out shat as much as the next guy, but original P-sports don't come around that often and are some of the best track wheels you can get...


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: UPDATE (Throttlepimp)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Throttlepimp* »_Thats quite a shave.









A company I know was working on a 7.5lb billet steel one. Apparently the aluminum ones (8.5lbs even) crack if used with a lightweight crank pulley. And it could even be used to replace the 23lb dual mass 1.8T flywheels too!


----------



## vlksdragon (Jul 28, 2000)

*Re: UPDATE (gamblinfool)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gamblinfool* »_
I hate played-out shat as much as the next guy, ...

I believe OZ turbos are played out shat, so I can take care of that for you...


----------



## gamblinfool (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: UPDATE (vlksdragon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vlksdragon* »_
I believe OZ turbos are played out shat, so I can take care of that for you...









You need to take of yourself first there, Mr. Scirocco deserter. Who asked YOU anyway?? But I will venture to say that OZ Turbos are nowhere near as played out as BBS RM/S's...


----------



## kenny_blankenship (Feb 19, 2005)

*Re: UPDATE (gamblinfool)*

He was being sarcastic, he was joking because he wants a set of turbos


----------



## gamblinfool (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: UPDATE (kenny_blankenship)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kenny_blankenship* »_He was being sarcastic, he was joking because he wants a set of turbos

I know he was. Just giving him a solid ribbing back...


----------



## spoonie (Dec 12, 2001)

*Re: UPDATE (gamblinfool)*

ben, this is outstanding! i knew you were working on this, i had no idea how detailed your plans were.
after i get my car back from the bodyshop, can we do mine?







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: (spoonie)*

We'll have to trade when I'm done.. my car needs the bodyshop and yours needs the VR.


----------



## mr lee (Jan 31, 2005)

*Re: Diff (Falcor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *polov8* »_x2








I want a probey thing! That thing kicks butt!!!!!










_Quote, originally posted by *Falcor* »_Andy, you should know better than to mention the words probe and butt in this forum....now we'll see all kinds of weird posts....









Oh geeze... here we go!








question: What are your plans for the front engine? another vr6?


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Diff (mr lee)*

I don't have any plans for a front engine. I'll put the fuel cell up there and brace up the front suspension but thats about it. It's kinda nice knowing I don't have to worry about the flexing front crossmember.


----------



## spoonie (Dec 12, 2001)

*Re: Diff (BennyB)*

you could throw in a 1.7L 8v in the front to keep a hint of understeer dialed in








seriously tho, wont putting the fuel cell up front affect the handling as the tank empties? or does placing it behind the "axle" line make the differenct negligable?


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Diff (spoonie)*

I was looking at a fairly tall/thin fuel cell the other day. It would end up pretty much right over the front axle. Its not that bad of a compromise since the stock tank in really only just ahead of the rear axle. There _is_ ample room behind the seat for a tank as well. I'm not 100% decided because I don't know if I trust a firewall or not. I suppose having a firewall is the biggest issue (since I've seen a fair number without). It would also be protected better in a crash than in the far back or in the front.
A gutted 1.7L and transmission would be awesome. There are so many tricks I could play...










_Modified by BennyB at 12:09 PM 6-12-2006_


----------



## spoonie (Dec 12, 2001)

*Re: Diff (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_
A gutted 1.7L and transmission would be awesome. There are so many tricks I could play...










"well, i cut out the metal in the rotor cap so that the 3 cylinders running sound amazingly like a vr6...."
excellent.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Another Update*

Or
"I ran all the sensors, wiring, and fuel injection through the engine for an ultra-clean look"
Guess I should post some pics since I finally got to painting stuff.








any bare metal is getting painted cause I hate dirt and rust.


















_Modified by BennyB at 12:29 PM 6-12-2006_


----------



## Throttlepimp (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: Another Update (BennyB)*

So nice.


----------



## Ryan9118 (Sep 14, 2005)

What CAD program is that? I tried to use SolidWorks one time, but I got really confused. I couldn't even make a wheel, let alone a whole car. Did you do all that stuff by hand, or is there somewhere with a bunch of models available??


----------



## Throttlepimp (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: (Ryan9118)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Ryan9118* »_What CAD program is that? I tried to use SolidWorks one time, but I got really confused. I couldn't even make a wheel, let alone a whole car. Did you do all that stuff by hand, or is there somewhere with a bunch of models available??

A really good program that is easy to learn is OneCNC. I've seen people with medicore computer skills bust out decent 3D models with tool paths in less than 2 weeks! Some one with a grasp of 3D modeling and or NC code can pick it up in a matter of days and have some prety trick stuff designed with tool paths soon after.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: (Ryan9118)*

Its Unigraphics NX 4. Its very powerful (and bloody expensive), but what I've done could me made in any current CAD program. The basics premise works as follows:
1) draw a 2D sketch on a flat plane somewhere
2) either extrude it (stretch out of page to 3D) or revolve it around an axis.
3) either add it to the current part, or use it to subtract away from the part.
4) repeat
There are lots of other features and capabilities, but what I listed is 90% of what I do to make a model.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*more updates*

Done:
-cleaned up the head. I'm on the fence whether I should take it completely apart and resurface it. There are some pits on the sealing surface of #1. the exhaust valve for #5 was leaking when I tested it in the parts washer. all the other valves seem fine. I might just take that one out and clean it up/lap it in better.
-scored some 1-1/2" stainless square tubing! Perfect for the subframe bracing. The stainless is overkill, but it was free








-finished the suspension analysis. I'll need to shorten the lower a-arms by 19mm, and the axles as well. The upper a-arms work out well by mounting to the bottom of the frame rail. I actually end up with good camber gain and roll center height. I'll likely space the lower balljoint down an inch to get the roll center height I want. I could move the engine/subframe up but that would hurt the CG height.



_Modified by BennyB at 11:27 AM 6-15-2006_


----------



## zef933 (Sep 30, 2003)

so from the pics it looks more like it will be a rear engine scirocco than a mid engine, nevertheless that will be amazing!!! quite an engineering feat, iam very impressed.


----------



## moburki (Jul 12, 2004)

*Re: (zef933)*

Very cool project. I'm sure you had the motorhead bug before FormulaSAE, but that project sure opens eyes to endless possibilities







Any you're living them.
I played that game for almost four years (almost 2000hrs the year I captained), only to get pulled out of the second half of the endurance comp for a drop of oil...rules are rules. Do you have any links to you're awd car?
GL with the scirocket!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: (moburki)*


_Quote, originally posted by *moburki* »_
I played that game for almost four years (almost 2000hrs the year I captained), only to get pulled out of the second half of the endurance comp for a drop of oil...rules are rules. 


The same thing happened to us in 2005. The haldex was overfilled and leaked a puddle the size of a dime. We weren't allowed to go back out.
What team were you on?

_Quote, originally posted by *moburki* »_ Do you have any links to you're awd car?


http://www.gryphonracing.org/g...d=142


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*update*

the point of no return!


----------



## Meaney (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: update (BennyB)*

Hardcore! I agree that using the tools you have is cheating!!!
Good luck!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Throttlepimp (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: update (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_the point of no return!

Oh it's on now! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VTEC_EATER_16V (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: update (Throttlepimp)*

I'm gonna have to keep my eyes on this project. Looks schweet.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: update (VTEC_EATER_16V)*

I'll try and keep updating.. its fun for me to look back, but its sometimes hard to take the slow pace that is forced upon me.
So I guess I'm bitter that I couldn't do much this weekend, but I did find out that I'm better off with a MK3 or corrado subframe. In the picture below (from the back of the car looking forward) you can see the interference of the passat subframe to the left of the transmission mount. That chassis mount on a MK2/MK3 is flat and lower, which means it would sit just below the frame rail rather than inside it.








so if anyone has or knows of a MK3 or corrado VR6 subframe (preferrably in Canada or close to Toronto), please let me know!
Ben


----------



## spoonie (Dec 12, 2001)

*Re: update (BennyB)*

ben, i'm parting out my mk3 golf CL. my understanding is that the k-subframe is the same, but the front crossmember uses a different engine mount (so it uses a slightly different crossmember)
when i'm done w/ the parting, let me know if you're interested in taking what's left of the car. (on a trailer or dolley)


----------



## si9ma25 (Jun 20, 2006)

that's gonna be a bad boy racer. is there a way you can just change the drivetrain on the scirocco to be RWD?
i hella wanna go RWD so i can do some drifting, even though i still have like 3 years to go before my license. i just want to fix my scirocco up so i have a badboy car when i get my license >=]


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: (si9ma25)*


_Quote, originally posted by *si9ma25* »_ is there a way you can just change the drivetrain on the scirocco to be RWD?


I suppose you could use a syncro setup, bypass the viscous coupling, and not drive the front wheels. but then it might as well be AWD. and all the weight is still up front.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*update*

The suspension is getting close to being completely figured out. I've designed these ball joint extensions to lower the a-arms. Without them, the roll-center is way too low and there wouldn't be enough roll resistance. The subframe bracing is designed, although I haven't captured a picture of it yet.


















_Modified by BennyB at 4:49 PM 6-21-2006_


----------



## polov8 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: update (BennyB)*

Are those for the front or the back? I notice those are A3 bearing carriers, but if you were using those at the front, then you'd need to drop the ball joint anywat to correct the dropped steering arm geometry. 
How much do they drop the ball joint btw? I may ask you to make a couple of extras if you can!


----------



## Throttlepimp (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: update (BennyB)*

Are you using a 5 axis machine?


----------



## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: update (Throttlepimp)*

This is looking badarse. I have a REALLLLLLLLY stupid question though, something I have thought about when I've contemplated a mid swap. What the hell do you do with the front wheels? Dont you need some sort of axle in the front wheel bearings when you move the car? I heard you can wreck a set of bearings if you roll the car without axles in it. Thanks!
Brendan
84 Scirocco 8v
00 Camaro L36 M49


----------



## spoonie (Dec 12, 2001)

*Re: update (Lord_Verminaard)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Lord_Verminaard* »_This is looking badarse. I have a REALLLLLLLLY stupid question though, something I have thought about when I've contemplated a mid swap. What the hell do you do with the front wheels? Dont you need some sort of axle in the front wheel bearings when you move the car? I heard you can wreck a set of bearings if you roll the car without axles in it. Thanks!
Brendan
84 Scirocco 8v
00 Camaro L36 M49


when i have to roll a car, i just put the axle-stub ends into it. if you put any weight on the wheel w/o that in there, your bearing are done.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*back from vacation*

i've been on vacation for a week. well not really vacation, since I built an addition on my house (and its not done yet). Now that I'm back, I can keep progressing. Thanks to spoonie, I'm getting a subframe soon, and I did get the flywheel done.


----------



## talx (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: Diff (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_I definitely had some help with an Immersion Microscribe G2X









accurate to 0.009"
I managed to sneak it home for a weekend to do the wheel arches and the engine block.
Rather than scan a point cloud I draw lines, arcs, and circles for the defining features. I can then use them as a guide for creating a solid model. 










OMG!!!
Awesome thread and build up love the cad sketches of all the parts you’re really taking it to the extreme!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I am building a scirocco with Haldex conversion so CAD program has really com in handy as well for designing all the part 
Personally im using Soiled Edge not because I prefer it but because it’s all I know and all I could get my hands on
After you mentioned the Microscribe G2X I was thinking to my self I most get one of these to help me out simulating all the existing parts but after looking it up and seeing its $4000+ tag price …….


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*update*

man.. where does the time go? waterfest took up a big chunk of time, as well as changing the rear wheel bearings on my syncro (ugh)
I'm now in possession of the MK3 subframe, so I can get that all cleaned up and ready to go. I suppose its time to get this engine and tranny together as well!


----------



## Throttlepimp (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: update (BennyB)*

Ya dude quit yer' lollygagging!


----------



## SciroccoRSi (Sep 5, 2004)

*Re: update (Throttlepimp)*

Fashinating project!
I am in the middle of one just like it myself. Unforunatly (or not) I have been involved in other racing activities so my rocco has been left out for a while. Hasn't done a thing in almost two years








Here is my project so far and I hope to update it soon.
http://berglund.eileen.nu/


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: update (SciroccoRSi)*

I knew someone in the world had to have done this.
Looks like I found my swedish twin! (he also does FSAE)
Check out his website.. that is a wicked bi-turbo manifold
















I made some adjustmests to the model for the MK3 subframe, and drafted up the rear mounting frame.










_Modified by BennyB at 11:34 AM 7-24-2006_


----------



## Throttlepimp (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: update (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_I knew someone in the world had to have done this.
Looks like I found my swedish twin! (he also does FSAE)
Check out his website.. that is a wicked bi-turbo manifold










Damn, I mean *DAMN!!!*
So the motor pictured is going in the middle of an MKI also? What's the link to that site?


_Modified by Throttlepimp at 7:45 AM 7-24-2006_


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: update (Throttlepimp)*

3 posts ago by sciroccoRSi.. here it is again:
http://berglund.eileen.nu/


----------



## Throttlepimp (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: update (BennyB)*

Ohfa, my bad, Thanks...


----------



## GTI451 (Oct 4, 2001)

*Re: update (Throttlepimp)*

Awesome projects!
I look forward to seeing more on this as it moves forward http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## ginster86roc (Apr 19, 2005)

*Re: update (BennyB)*










^manifold pr0n^, i tell ya.


----------



## si9ma25 (Jun 20, 2006)

what kinda engine is that?! and is that twin turbo?!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*update*

I've been working on the car in little bits, and now I have the gas tank and exhaust out of the car. Just taking that out made the rear suspension sit another inch higher! 








I modified the subframe to remove the extra tabs off the back, which would otherwise be poking through the rear valence.

I'm now in the process of accurately marking the wheel centerline on the chassis as a reference point, and mapping out where the subframe bolts to.
I also ordered the spherical bearings for the upper and lower A-arms.


----------



## Throttlepimp (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: update (BennyB)*

Damn, this thing is going to Rocc Socks. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## spoonie (Dec 12, 2001)

*Re: update (Throttlepimp)*

That's some seriously hot subframe action. i doubt your car will go faster than the donor that part came from!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: update (spoonie)*

the subframe donor car may actually get a full cage and go racing (and a new subframe of course). My dad is looking at options for building a GT car.
Picked up a 60L(16gal) fuel cell. Fits in there pretty good. I'm not sure how low I want it and I may add some bracing to protect the tank in a front collision. It also needs a return line and possibly a fuel level sender.










_Modified by BennyB at 11:37 AM 8-8-2006_


----------



## spoonie (Dec 12, 2001)

*Re: update (BennyB)*

will the placement of the fuel cell (ahead of the strut towers) affect the handling much when getting close to empty? (did i ask this already?)


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: update (spoonie)*

its a tradeoff. I get a better weight distribution when its full but it will change when it gets used. It will also have a higher polar moment of inertia.
There may be room between the engine and the firewall to put a tank near the CG in the future. It will likely have to be a custom tank then.


----------



## sciroccojim (Dec 21, 2004)

*Re: update (BennyB)*

Succulent.
One thought: I would think that placing the tank above the deflection area of the front crossmember would be much safer.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: update (sciroccojim)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sciroccojim* »_One thought: I would think that placing the tank above the deflection area of the front crossmember would be much safer.

I was thinking that too. I should also add a skid plate to the front.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: update (BennyB)*

update:
finally got the front engine mount bracket I need as well as a starter. Also aquired another cylinder head from Spoonie that's in much better condition. Now I should be able to bolt the engine back together. The transmission has been assembled with the Peloquin. It needed a few bearings and a 5th gear bolt, but its ready to go.


----------



## Throttlepimp (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: update (BennyB)*

Oh yeah sooooooooooooooooo close. Or not?


----------



## 95GTIVR6Speed (Feb 4, 2006)

awesome benny. just purely awesome.


----------



## SvenRasta (Nov 16, 2002)

*Re: update (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_I've been working on the car in little bits, and now I have the gas tank and exhaust out of the car. Just taking that out made the rear suspension sit another inch higher! 








I modified the subframe to remove the extra tabs off the back, which would otherwise be poking through the rear valence.

I'm now in the process of accurately marking the wheel centerline on the chassis as a reference point, and mapping out where the subframe bolts to.
I also ordered the spherical bearings for the upper and lower A-arms.

Please don't hack up this car


----------



## aslater (Dec 6, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE (BennyB)*

the corrado guys are watching you!
Looks great. Cant wait to see more progress.
10 thumbs up
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif mine
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif my mama's
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif my sistaz
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif uncle bob's
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif uncles brothers nephews cousins girlfriens


----------



## nidnabd (Apr 11, 2005)

*Re: UPDATE (aslater)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aslater* »_the corrado guys are watching you!








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## clintg60-16v (Dec 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE (nidnabd)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Craige-O (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (BennyB)*

RE-DICK-U-LOUS


----------



## xtremevdub (Jun 26, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE (aslater)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aslater* »_the corrado guys are watching you!


http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## corradobomb (Mar 28, 2000)

*Re: UPDATE (xtremevdub)*

looks like a fun project!!! good luck with it bro http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## rallySOP (Dec 28, 2001)

*Re: update (BennyB)*

TOP OF THE PAGE
You got some nice equipment at your disposal, have you ever considered making a little money on the side by *.DXF ing VW parts for us?
I'm a cheap mk1 driver (not to repeat myself), and I'm still operating Autocad Rev 10... If you remember, that's back before windows, and when Auto shade was a seperate program. I'd love to rock a newer version, I just don't have the cash. Actually, I picked up a copy of Autodesk Quick Cad 8.0, but there is soooo much it won't do


----------



## boner (May 19, 2002)

*Re: update (rallySOP)*

definitly the kind of preject i would love to work on http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif unfortunatly i don't have the time/space/welding skill/cmm/cad package at home....oh well, i can dream right!?
good luck and i can't wait to see that thing run!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: update (rallySOP)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rallySOP* »_TOP OF THE PAGE
You got some nice equipment at your disposal, have you ever considered making a little money on the side by *.DXF ing VW parts for us?
I'm a cheap mk1 driver (not to repeat myself), and I'm still operating Autocad Rev 10... If you remember, that's back before windows, and when Auto shade was a seperate program. I'd love to rock a newer version, I just don't have the cash. Actually, I picked up a copy of Autodesk Quick Cad 8.0, but there is soooo much it won't do

I've thought about it. I don't think VW would be too happy with me if I sold 3D models of their parts.
I started on Autocad 10 and I remember making a fairly simple 3D part that took 4 hours to remove the hidden lines.
Ben


----------



## skaterhernandez4 (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: update (BennyB)*

bump for a sweet project http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## German-Freak (Jul 1, 2006)

like your project very much ! 
awesome !
keep on dubbin


----------



## SvenRasta (Nov 16, 2002)

*Re: (German-Freak)*

Get an f'n job ya bum....make me pull out my hair...never enough time...sorry...almost lost myself. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
good job








Keep us updated


----------



## MK1_F00L (Nov 13, 2001)

*Re: update (BennyB)*

oh i remember those days too, doing anything in AutoCad took so much time... that and importing the files in 3dstudio for rendering too, way too much fun...
So Ben how is the car coming along?


----------



## 95GTIVR6Speed (Feb 4, 2006)

yes all are curious to know. take pictures.


----------



## ihaveavr6 (Jun 10, 2003)

*Re: (95GTIVR6Speed)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: (ihaveavr6)*

unfortunately I haven't been able to do much. I've been building an addition on my house and helping on the VR6 engineering project. On top of that I'll be taking two courses over the winter to start finishing up my masters degree. busy busy busy
anyways, my spherical bearings came in for the a-arms. 2 large ones for the lower rear, and 6 smaller ones for the lower front and upper.


----------



## ReverendHorton (Sep 27, 2000)

*Re: (BennyB)*

bump because I need to keep an eye on this. thanks for sharing


----------



## Mardak (Oct 21, 2003)

*Re: update (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_its a tradeoff. I get a better weight distribution when its full but it will change when it gets used. It will also have a higher polar moment of inertia.
There may be room between the engine and the firewall to put a tank near the CG in the future. It will likely have to be a custom tank then.

Hi Ben,
I just saw this thread for the first time. Nice!!!!!! Just a quick note here - when I was researching doing a similar swap I stumbled on a good solution for a fuel tank - one from a MR2. They're long and narrow, and would probably fit between the firewall and engine...
Later,
Mark.


----------



## 95GTIVR6Speed (Feb 4, 2006)

bump for updates if any.


----------



## ownerizer (May 15, 2005)

This is quite possibly, the sickest MKI swap, with engineering combo EVAR.
Best.
Thread.
EVAR.
1.8T NeVaR LoSe ----except to this...


----------



## phil147 (Jul 3, 2005)

sick project!
keep those pictures comming


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: (phil147)*

once again.. hate to disappoint but nothing has happened








the project is by no means dead, but I need to get 2 courses out of the way this semester before I can get back to it.


----------



## JUSTAGL (Feb 28, 2001)

*Re: (BennyB)*

So, what program is that again? Is it pro-engineer? I know alot of Auto CAD and I don't think I could do something that good in ACAD. Great job, good luck with the rest of the build.


----------



## UBER KUHL (May 16, 2005)

just found this thread, and im really impressed. love to see someone using their engineering skills on a nice project


----------



## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: (radokid88)*

Is it done yet?


----------



## white4dr (Sep 18, 2006)

*Re: (patatron)*

get this out of the archives http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## BigFoot3 (Sep 1, 2004)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (BennyB)*

what school did you do FSAE at?
im working on FSAE currently.
sweet car and build idea 
you get:
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (BigFoot3)*

haha.. back out of the archives...
I did my FSAE at the University of Guelph, where I now work and complete my masters degree part time.
I finished the 2 courses this semester.. and now have a bit more time. Not alot, but enough that I can poke around at some things instead of completely shelving the project.
I'm hoping (fingers crossed) that I get a tent garage for christmas, because it would be next to impossible to work on this thing in the driveway anymore.
Next on the task list is to digitize the VR6 front mount bracket that came in so I can finalize the engine position and start building the subframe mounts.
Ben


----------



## Throttlepimp (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (BennyB)*

Yeah baby, yeah!


----------



## Fleischwagen (Oct 22, 2006)

Whoa! Just stumbled across this... and all I have to say is







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif cheers!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Update*

Spent some time over the holidays getting to know the intimate details of assembly constraints in NX.







The good news is that the extra work paid off and the initial design I had for the upper a-arm would have limited me to 50mm of bump travel. With a few simple modifications I'm up to 75mm of bump travel which is now limited by the offset of the wheel (camber gain brings the top of the tire into the strut)
As an added bonus, I made a quick movie of the motion. The tie rod doesn't move yet, but is accounted for in the constraints.
youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYXcBz2jqHg


----------



## Throttlepimp (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: Update (BennyB)*








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## ElRocco97 (Dec 10, 2006)

*Re: Update (Throttlepimp)*

this is such an awesome idea, as has already been stated time and again!







lol.. yea so i was seriously just thinking what kind of engine conversion i would want to do on my '80 rocco.. and the vr6 popped into my head.. then i get onto vortex and see this thread.. man, coincidence.. lol.. it will still be a while before i can do anything about it.. but im always thinkin bout it.. vr6 would be sweet tho.. mm.. with turbo.. it will be a beautiful thing!


----------



## GotKraut (Dec 3, 2004)

very nice, now stop using all this to distract you from actually working on it







haha jk


----------



## polov8 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: (GotKraut)*

Not to be an ass or anything (first time for everything...) But isn't the shock absorber in the way of the driveshaft?


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: (polov8)*

The damper assembly does clear the driveshaft but I had to rotate it forward slightly to clear. I'm hoping this doesn't impact the upper bushings too much since it was only a couple degrees difference. I can replace the upper bushings with a spherical bearing assembly if it does become a problem.


----------



## Shawn M. (Oct 15, 2002)

wow...great build thread
watching and drooling


----------



## spoonie (Dec 12, 2001)

*Re: (Shawn M.)*

bump for progress








even if it's just more youtube vids


----------



## Beau (Oct 15, 2003)

*Re: (spoonie)*

It all look good on a computer, but are you gonna build it? 
Let's see some dirty work pics!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: (beau_layman)*

I assure you.. it will be built. The problem is that I currently lack the facilities (a garage). I have everything else though. I'm at the point that I'd do it in a tent garage if needed. But in the meantime I'll work out all the details so it will save me time when it comes to fabrication.
Ben


----------



## ramdmc (Jul 25, 2005)

*Re: (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_The problem is that I currently lack the facilities (a garage).
Ben

Fabrication in -20 Cel can be a bummer. I sympathize wholeheartedly. I mean, beer can only warm you up so much. And now that we have snow, it's even worse. 














to you bro, hop on a sled and ride winter out. 
Seems like you have everything under control, but if by chance you need anything, feel free to ask. I havent been to Fergus in ages and would jump at the chance
RC


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: (ramdmc)*

Well I just can't stand not having a sporty car now that the weather is nice, so there's been a bit of a change of plans. 
I'm parting out a 2L16V passat auto with a good engine and tranny, so I'll use that to get the car going until the VR6 is rebuilt. I won't have to mess with the shifter right away, and I know everything is there and working.


----------



## BiSiE (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: (BennyB)*

awesome project man! did you endup getting the shell?
keep up the good work, the weather is getting good for fabrication


----------



## 206danebmx (May 16, 2001)

*Re: (BennyB)*

I'm so jealous...you're completing my dream as we speak. Keep up the updates I'd love to see how this all goes. I also have a buddy thats doing this in a rabbit right now.

I can't wait to see a mk1 rocco gettin sideways!!!!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Still going*

I actually managed to get a day do work on the Scirocco! Hurray!
I ended up getting a nice garage/shell in May to keep the car inside and work at night. Of course, I ended up having to use it to replace the clutch and transmission in my syncro over the course of a couple weeks.
So the Scirocco is back in there now, and we set it up on jack stands front and rear to level it and keep the frame straight. I tidied up the cuts in the floor and did some calculations on how low I can get the subframe/engine in the car. Since my passat subframe sits at 6", I decided to go with 5.25". With the ball joint extensions, the lower a-arm will still be parallel, and the wheels should sit nicely in the arches. I'm not a big fan of slammed Sciroccos since the wheel doesn't look right if the top is even (or less) with the arch.
The other thing I've dermined is that my plan to use the rear strut in the stock location doesn't work very well. There's not enough room to get a proper upper a-arm if it has to go around the strut. The strut also limits the width of the rear wheels. I've determined that the strut will fit comfortably between the engine and the rear of the car running longitudinally along the frame rail. It would be actuated by a pushrod and rocker arm. This also gives me the option to adjust the rates on the rocker arm for fine tuning. Much less compromise.
Pictures to follow.
I also am in dire need of a plasma cutter for cutting out mounts, ect. It takes me about 10 times longer than necessary to do it with a grinder/saw. If anyone know of one for sale, please let me know!


----------



## LT1M21Stingray (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: Still going (BennyB)*

Bump.
Wassup?


----------



## TieRod (Sep 20, 2006)

*Re: Still going (Mtl-Marc)*

*CTRL+D*
"Add"
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VR6ators (Apr 27, 2007)

*Re: Still going (BennyB)*

amazing build, man, you will be my hero if you finish this... then maybe you can give me some tips with I do my mr mk1








keep us updated with some pics!
(id like to see how that front subframe works out in the unibody) http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Still going (VR6ators)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif PROJECT RESURRECTED! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I finally got out of my time and money pit for a house and into one with a garage. So once I drag the car out of storage, the game is on!
So the new goal is to make it to Cincy (2008) 
Up first on the list is to find a plasma cutter so I can cut some mounts for the subframe.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Still going (BennyB)*

I'm also contemplating this instead of the VR6: 








its a brand new 1.8T AEB long block thats sitting in my garage. 
I figure it would take about as much work to get going as the VR6, so I'm still on the fence.


----------



## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: Still going (BennyB)*

DO EET! You're already ahead of the game if you have the engine. Less weight too. Would love to see this car at Cincy. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Brendan


----------



## Falcor (May 26, 2004)

*Re: Still going (Lord_Verminaard)*

Everyone knows that 20v>24v>12v


----------



## G-rocco (Sep 11, 2004)

I'm glad to see this project back! I had been wondering what had happened to it....
I say go for the VR6. The sound alone......
combined with the sexy looks of a mk1 FTW!


----------



## VR6ators (Apr 27, 2007)

*Re: Still going (BennyB)*

just because its there doesnt mean you should compromise and do the 1.8t... if u wanted the VR6, then dammit, do the VR6!!! youll never be happy with it otherwise...
but, if the 1.8t is what u want then amen to that brother, it would be nice seeing one of these types of builds finish one of these days... we're rootin for ya!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Still going (VR6ators)*

Well it turns out I just picked up the engine I really wanted in the first place-- a 24V VR6 with a 6speed 02M!
I certainly haven't forgotten about this project. It has just taken me a long time to get the new garage sorted out (way, *way* too much stuff). I've been pushing the car in and out every time I go in the garage


----------



## Rannoch (Mar 19, 2008)

woot, you're back!


----------



## 84_GTI_child (Nov 16, 2006)

*Re: (Rannoch)*

ohhh man.. im so excited. do you have any CADs of ur new suspension setup???


----------



## Throttlepimp (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: Still going (BennyB)*

Dude. If i had to push any of my cars around some stuff would actually get. That said maybe I have to much space... and thanks Shawn!!!
This thing is going to be a Beast!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## QUICK QUESTION (Apr 19, 2008)

*Re: Still going (Throttlepimp)*

subscribed!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: (84_GTI_child)*

I'm still working on the suspension redesign (version 3). Using the MK4 mounts gives me more flexibility for a lighter subframe and it also means I can eliminate the ball-joint extensions in the design. The only issue is that I have to cut into the wheel wells a bit for the mounts. Once I get it closer to complete I'll update with some CAD drawings.
Milestone moment: engine inside the car.
Next milestone: engine hanging in the car.








The garage reorganization is now complete and I bought a nice Miller Syncrowave TIG welder to make the aluminum parts. 


_Modified by BennyB at 10:01 PM 7-29-2008_


----------



## 81type53 (Jun 2, 2008)

*Re: (BennyB)*

Followed this when I first signed on. Good deal that It's back. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## two16Vs (Jul 17, 2008)

*Re: (81type53)*

Watching with interest! You're always cooking a new recipe! Keep up the good work.


----------



## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: (two16Vs)*

Sweet! Those 24v's are ginormous! Really looking forward to how this turns out. Your skills are quite impressive. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Brendan


----------



## Rocco Sifredi (Jan 22, 2007)

*Re: (Lord_Verminaard)*

WOW!
when this car gets done, it will no doubt be the car of the year
Goodluck dude, where do you stumble across these engines?
they just happen to walk into your garage?


----------



## Amsterdam087 (Dec 31, 2007)

*Re: (Rocco Sifredi)*

Subscribed


----------



## GoKraut (Mar 29, 2005)

*Re: (Amsterdam087)*

I too cannot wait to see this in action and will be watching it closely.
Nice to see someone with great skill come in here and teach us a thing or two.









-Rob


----------



## sciroccohal (May 4, 2005)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (BennyB)*

Cool PRO-E drawings! It's hard to imagine a 1500 lbs Srock with 50/50 weight distribution! (drooling)
great job my boy!







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (sciroccohal)*

hey sciroccohal, i'm in Scottsdale right now! too bad I'm leaving tomorrow or we could meet up. Been on a work trip for the last 2 weeks
I've been able to sort out the suspension a bit better now. My original layout didn't have a high enough roll center in the rear. I had to start from scratch with the motion simulation in my CAD drawings, but since I've reworked the method, it is much easier to change design parameters and see how it affects the dynamics. Once I get a good motion simulation running I'll post some vids.
some design goals for the rear suspension:
125mm ground clearance
100mm-125mm roll center height
2 Hz ride frequency
~1.5deg static camber
+/- 50mm jounce/rebound travel
~0.5deg camber gain per 25mm
toe in on jounce (a bit of bump steer)
I haven't done the math or weighed the new engine yet, but it's looking closer to 45/55 weight distribution. Maybe even 40/60


----------



## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (BennyB)*

Just in case you haven't seen this, there is a Rado on Schimmel's site with a 24v turbo rear-engine swap, might spark some ideas. From what I can see the whole car has been back-halved but still...








http://www.schimmelperformance...o.htm

Really looking forward to what you will come up with.

Brendan


----------



## Throttlepimp (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (Lord_Verminaard)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Lord_Verminaard* »_Just in case you haven't seen this, there is a Rado on Schimmel's site with a 24v turbo rear-engine swap, might spark some ideas. From what I can see the whole car has been back-halved but still...








http://www.schimmelperformance...o.htm

Really looking forward to what you will come up with.

Brendan

Kinda funny that it has a CF hood. Understeer much?


----------



## spoonie (Dec 12, 2001)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (Throttlepimp)*

benny, update!


----------



## johnnloki (Jan 28, 2007)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (spoonie)*

I want to see your car some day.
I'm dreaming of a mid to start, and twin TDI engined mk1 rocco. Seeing a VR lodged in the back of a rocco is pretty damned inspirational.


----------



## 0dd_j0b (Sep 22, 2007)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (johnnloki)*

wow...just...wow, this is truly an amazing idea that your doing here. i can not wait to see the finished product. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif x1000000







x infinity


----------



## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (0dd_j0b)*

I need a 24v for my Corrado.








Brendan


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Long Due Update*

Yes, the project still exists. I don't know how many hours I've spend on CAD now, but it's should save me from too much wasted fabrication.
The shop is set up much better, with the addition of a lathe and mill to the already tight space. It became quite obvious that they were a necessity because my only access to machining is 2hrs on the other side of Toronto.
There have been quite a few changes. Notably:
MK4 spindles/lower balljoint
FK konigsport coilovers
pushrod/rocker arm suspension
geometry updates to satisfy some better kinematics
mercedes rear ball joints for the upper control arm inners (cross axial ball joint with boots)
MK3 upper balljoint with fabricated spindle adapter

here's are some CAD renders:


----------



## Rannoch (Mar 19, 2008)

*FV-QR*

I'd like to see pictures of the shop you have setup.
If you don't mind of course.
This project is really quite cool.


----------



## johnnloki (Jan 28, 2007)

*Re: Long Due Update (BennyB)*

If you need a hand... er... lifting stuff? (I'm useless) I'd love to come and help you out. Awesome to see more prograss- you're quite the Cad guy- that's a pretty good approximation of the roc there, and beebs to boot.
Either I dump a bunch into the mk4 or I start the ball on the rocco project... It's actually pretty funny- I've not even stood next to a mk1 rocco yet, but I'm dying for one.
There's a couple that are local for sale (or have been for sale but owner gave up on sale... ) and a fairly low km ALH nearby too... Ah decisions.


----------



## GoKraut (Mar 29, 2005)

*Re: Long Due Update (johnnloki)*

moar pictars, benny. I'm getting tired of waiting.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Long Due Update (GoKraut)*









































After a bit of a hiatus, I'm ready to start building! I've been double checking clearance and finalizing the designs for the subframe and control arms. I picked up some 15" BBS RS (9J front and 11J rear) that I will modify by using the 2" outer lips from the front on the rear and find some 1" lips for the front to make 8J and 10J with ET41. Without the strut in the way in the rear, they should just barely fit. I hadn't really accounted for how much bigger the 02M is than the 02A, so it made me change the subframe quite a bit after I made a crude model of it. 
I'm hoping to get alot done in a short time so I can keep it mobile.


----------



## Autoboost-tech (Dec 27, 2009)

I would use the Audi trans vertical mount to move the engine weight to the middle, there are adapters to run a VR6 on a Audi trans witch is a front wheel drive but not horizontal mounted


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: (Autoboost-tech)*

I was close to buying a wrecked S4 in December, but decided against it. The rear uprights/hubs would have worked better and it would have fit. However, it would have some weight in the tranny hanging behind the axle, and didn't leave room for a mid-mounted gas tank.
Another cool option would be a porsche boxter setup since it uses a passat fwd tranny and then use a 1.8T
The problem with most setups is that the cars are much wider, so narrowing the track width wrecks the suspension geometry or you need massive flares.


----------



## punchbug (Jul 15, 2000)

*Re: (BennyB)*

Benny? Can't wait to see this little green monster!


----------



## kenny_blankenship (Feb 19, 2005)

*Re: (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_I was close to buying a wrecked S4 in December, but decided against it. The rear uprights/hubs would have worked better and it would have fit. However, it would have some weight in the tranny hanging behind the axle, and didn't leave room for a mid-mounted gas tank.
Another cool option would be a porsche boxter setup since it uses a passat fwd tranny and then use a 1.8T
The problem with most setups is that the cars are much wider, so narrowing the track width wrecks the suspension geometry or you need massive flares.

Here is what I would do if you decided to go that route (wehich it appears you are against):
Run a FWD audi 4000 setup mid-mounted. The track width is close to a scirocco, and the car is 4x100 like any A1, and longitudinal. You can source an 01E from a TDI passat in the UK, and run the OEM adaptor plate from a VR5 passat 4motion (yes, there is a longitudinal VR), along with a few 034 goodies. To get the proper axles, you'll want to run the front axles from an S2/RS2 with a 6-speed. The boxster/cayman trans is a good idea, but the 8A0 (I think that is the code) gearboxes are big $$, and hard to find. Since at that point you would be running a front subframe from a 4k, you'd need to figure out the fixed tie rod end setup as well.
If you want a good forum on MR 016/01E/012 transmission setups, check out http://www.gt40s.com . It is a forum for people building GT40 replicas, and the transmissions of choice seem to be FWD Audi units.


----------



## definition56 (Jan 8, 2005)

*Re: (kenny_blankenship)*

Absolutely awesome man!







Could I possibly get a copy of just the outer body and wheels of your model in .iges format? I'm not an engineer but I do quite a bit of 3D rendering. I would love to tinker around rendering a scirocco. I started building one a while back but time got the best of me. Great job man!!!


_Modified by definition56 at 8:18 PM 1-6-2010_


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: (kenny_blankenship)*

Sourcing stuff from the UK... sounds like a bit of a pain unless you know someone over there. If I was going that route, I think I'd probably run a 1.8T anyways, then it would bolt right up to the audi 4000 tranny.
The transverse setup with a factory subframe would be dead simple if I was fine with mcpherson strut in the rear. But I wanted wide rear wheels, so that pretty much forced me into a double wishbone setup.
I started machining the spindle and upper balljoint adapters.


----------



## 8716vrocco (Feb 12, 2001)

*Re: (BennyB)*

Project is amazing http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I love to see people using cad to figure everything out instead of just winging it. Keep up the great work, cant wait to see more progress. Have a







on me


----------



## LamaMk1 (Apr 7, 2009)

*FV-QR*

really got hooked on this project....
it will be mind blowing machine....


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Wheel Fitting*

I dropped the motor and ripped out the rear suspension. So now its stuck in my garage and I'm forced to get it rolling again!
Tried the 11" BBS wheels in the wheel wells. With it touching the inner wheel well, it lines up with the outer edge of the fender flare. So dropping it to 10" should give me the clearance I need.


----------



## RipCity Euros (Sep 23, 2007)

*Re: Wheel Fitting (BennyB)*

Awesome


----------



## 16v dubbin (Jun 9, 2008)

subscirbed http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Frame Rail*

Started cutting.. and now I've got one frame rail in. I originally wanted to keep as much original frame as possible, but it was pretty crusty and I needed a bit of clearance. Plus it gives me something square to reference.


----------



## ArpyArpad (Jan 4, 2002)

*Re: Frame Rail (BennyB)*

what size and thickness tubing are you using for the frame rail? although it looks like youve used 2 different sizes. actually is that just sectioned?

i love this kind of stuff!


_Modified by ArpyArpad at 7:42 PM 2-12-2010_


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Frame Rail (ArpyArpad)*

2.5" square, .125 wall
I would have preferred 0.095 wall, but it would have been hard to get.
There is a notch out of the top to clear the upper arm at full droop, and a notch for the axle.
I finished the other frame rail today. I'll start on the engine mounts and aluminum subframe tomorrow.


----------



## Rusto2nd (Jun 12, 2008)

*Re: Frame Rail (BennyB)*

Great to see someone else cutting their car to pieces, i'm doing the exact same my self








I will be following this one!
What weight distribution are hoping for?


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: Frame Rail (BennyB)*

Making parts for the subframe:
Since I needed 8 of the same part (1/8" 6061 aluminum) I made a template from the first one I cut out. It works out reasonably well to use the scrap from the first piece because there is a 5-6mm offset from the edge of the plasma cutter. I used the mill with a 7/16" endmill to finish off the inner edge of the template, then cut out the pieces. I finished off one piece to use as a guide, then clamped all the rest together and milled and drilled all 8 pieces together.
I experimented with using the non-ferrous blade in the mitre saw to finish one of the sides, and it worked pretty good, but it's limited to outside cuts.




























































4 more pieces to make for the lower mounts, then I can start cutting tubing and welding it all together.


_Modified by BennyB at 5:29 PM 2-20-2010_


----------



## Rannoch (Mar 19, 2008)

Is it wrong that I'm more jealous of your tools than I am of your car?
Either way. Both are awesome.


----------



## Lysholm (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: (Rannoch)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rannoch* »_Is it wrong that I'm more jealous of your tools than I am of your car?
Either way. Both are awesome.

I am so right there with ya...


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: (Lysholm)*

Well, not all the tools are great. You can see my cheap $32 chinese angle vise I needed to face and bore the spindle adapters. The swedish vise I really wanted was $280! And of course, the piece jumped and broke an insert tonight.
I'm in a bit of a foul mood, since I was trying to weld the subframe and the breaker kept tripping. And that makes the tungsten foul since the argon stops and it gets oxidized before it cools. So 30amp is not enough. Which means I need bigger breaker on the main panel too. I wired it heavy enough, I just cheaped out on getting bigger breakers and used what I had.


















_Modified by BennyB at 10:11 PM 2-23-2010_


----------



## LT1M21Stingray (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: (BennyB)*

In for some serious cutting and welding. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## laminaytrap (Oct 31, 2009)

*Re: (Mtl-Marc)*

Can't believe i haven't seen this one yet, i've looked everywhere for all the rear drive sciroccos. We kicked around the rear engine idea, but no weight over the rear wheels seemed like way more fun. My cad's not as nice as yours though, but i did mine in about 8 hrs while the rest of my house was cadding a Porsche in rhino. lol
I was gonna post it, but now i'm just embarrassed...


----------



## polov8 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: (laminaytrap)*

I'm loving this! File all this thread under "DOING IT RIGHT!" http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_









Benny, if that frame is aluminum you're a far better man than I.
By the time I got done welding that it'd be a completely warped piece of ****.








Excellent work and the CAD design makes my heart sing.







Right up my alley if I was going to attempt something like this.


_Modified by J. Daniel at 7:26 AM 2-24-2010_


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *laminaytrap* »_Can't believe i haven't seen this one yet, i've looked everywhere for all the rear drive sciroccos. We kicked around the rear engine idea, but no weight over the rear wheels seemed like way more fun. My cad's not as nice as yours though, but i did mine in about 8 hrs while the rest of my house was cadding a Porsche in rhino. lol
I was gonna post it, but now i'm just embarrassed...


I wouldn't be embarrased, I have hundreds of hours in my cad model. Are you guys doing a project for school or just something fun?

_Quote, originally posted by *polov8* »_I'm loving this! File all this thread under "DOING IT RIGHT!" http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


I did the same thing with your thread! There's quite a few really good fabrication threads going in vortex.

_Quote, originally posted by *J. Daniel* »_
Benny, if that frame is aluminum you're a far better man than I.
By the time I got done welding that it'd be a completely warped piece of ****.








Excellent work and the CAD design makes my heart sing.







Right up my alley if I was going to attempt something like this.


Yes, its aluminum. There was alot of swearing involved, and that's just to tack it together. Fortunately, I have a full sleeve of tungsten.


----------



## Kameirocco (Dec 20, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (BennyB)*

glad this is still being worked on! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## laminaytrap (Oct 31, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (Kameirocco)*

The Porsche was school project for third year cad, the scirocco was just to get an idea of how much space i could find inside it, i did it from front and side views and any production dimensions i could get my hands on, as i hadn't bought one yet.


----------



## yeahbob (Jan 25, 2010)

*Re: FV-QR (laminaytrap)*

that turbo setup idea looks pretty neat


----------



## laminaytrap (Oct 31, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (yeahbob)*

Yeah we were looking to pretty much eliminate the runner between the turbo and the intake, rather than running inter coolers.


----------



## markeysscirocco (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (BennyB)*

You seem pretty savoy in your designs. Maybe you can answer a Q I have for a down pipe from a 93 16V Passat fitting onto the 87' 16V Scirocco. Will it fit under the car bolted on!?


----------



## mr lee (Jan 31, 2005)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (markeysscirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *markeysscirocco* »_You seem pretty savoy in your designs. Maybe you can answer a Q I have for a down pipe from a 93 16V Passat fitting onto the 87' 16V Scirocco. Will it fit under the car bolted on!?

negative ghost rider, you need a scirocco specific header & downpipe for a 16v. 
in other news this car is sick.


----------



## Rocco_crossing (Dec 19, 2002)

*Re: Mid VR6 MKI Scirocco (mr lee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mr lee* »_
in other news this car is sick. 

Oh so True!!!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Weekend Update with Norm MacDonald*

Drehkraft is here for the weekend to help!








Subframe is taking shape. Lots of welding to finish though. Even though I had it all clamped down, it was a struggle to keep the dimensions accurate with all the welding but I managed to compensate.








I have borrowed my dad's bender now, so I can start on the upper arms.


----------



## d-bot (Sep 6, 2004)

*Re: Weekend Update with Norm MacDonald (BennyB)*

Nice one. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Trump page 7!


----------



## audi666 (Jul 8, 2003)

*Re: (J. Daniel)*

very nice.
going to watch this one.


----------



## laminaytrap (Oct 31, 2009)

*Re: (audi666)*

Looking good benny, neat to see in person, thanks for the bearings and the dipstick funnel!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *laminaytrap* »_Looking good benny, neat to see in person, thanks for the bearings and the dipstick funnel!


It's too bad they didn't work out though








I'll see if my dad has any short blocks. I know he had a nice 10:1 RD one that was bored 30 over and rebuilt, but I think he sold it.

Engine and subframe are in place, so I started making the engine mount plates. I wanted them to be able to move longitudinally +/- 5mm since the engine side of the mounts move laterally. So I needed to make something to capture nuts on the bottom side. The plate itself is 1/8" and the U-channel pieces I made on the metal brake with 0.065" plate.


----------



## Rusto2nd (Jun 12, 2008)

Whats the plan with the front suspesion?


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: (Rusto2nd)*

For now, I will buy coilover springs to match the low rate I need in the front.
I'm estimating 50N/mm springs (290lb/in) but it depends on the weight bias I end up with.
Eventually, I'd like to make a dual wishbone setup up there too.


----------



## 16VScirrocco88 (Apr 13, 2003)

*Re: (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_
Eventually, I'd like to make a dual wishbone setup up there too.


something like this?










_Modified by 16VScirrocco88 at 2:33 PM 3-4-2010_


----------



## Craige-O (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: Weekend Update with Norm MacDonald (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_










awesome!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *16VScirrocco88* »_
something like this?










Yeah, that looks pretty cool. I'd like to see if the lower balljoint has been switched to a spherical. If it's original with the coilover pushing on the arm it could pop the balljoint out on bump. But it could easily be switched to a captured rod-end or spherical the same as on top.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*FV-QR*

Engine is mounted and sitting on the pendulum mounts. I forgot to take a picture though!
Finally got a dogbone mount and into CAD. I got really lucky here, since the length lines up to within 2mm of the lower subframe. So it should be relatively easy to modify the subframe and brace back into the chassis.








I finished the spindle adapters. Ran into a problem with the original design, since there was too much metal to effectively clamp the balljoint without stripping the pinch bolt. I revised the design by freeing one side of the clamp but leave the other side rigid to the mount.








I also started making the control arms. I was worried about the inner joint housings warping when welded, but the balljoint still fits perfectly


----------



## polov8 (Apr 14, 2004)

Awesome stuff! Are those Audi rear hub carriers?


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *polov8* »_Awesome stuff! Are those Audi rear hub carriers?


They're MK4 VR6/1.8T spindles. I cut off the damper mount/clamp and machined the webs for a straight edge to bolt to.


----------



## impulse byer (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: (16VScirrocco88)*


_Quote, originally posted by *16VScirrocco88* »_
something like this?









_Modified by 16VScirrocco88 at 2:33 PM 3-4-2010_

I don't want to type this out loud but it looks like there is some Honda parts in there...


----------



## d-bot (Sep 6, 2004)

*Re: (impulse byer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *impulse byer* »_
I don't want to type this out loud but it looks like there is some Honda parts in there...









Don't be, they handle than most VW's and I've never even owned a honda. Go to a track day.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*FV-QR*

Finally got one upper arm done and most of the pieces to build the other one. The tubing is 6061 1" dia 1/8" wall. The arm without joints should weigh about 600grams.


----------



## Rannoch (Mar 19, 2008)

*FV-QR*

that is awesome


----------



## ArpyArpad (Jan 4, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Rannoch)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rannoch* »_that is awesome

x100


----------



## yeahbob (Jan 25, 2010)

man i wish somebody would come up with some lightweight control arms like this for the MKIII


----------



## falcon2000aj (Jun 26, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (BennyB)*

WOW








Amazing work... I enjoy following this thread!!


----------



## gamblinfool (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (falcon2000aj)*

^^^ MAJOR skillz... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## joezeeuw (Feb 23, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (gamblinfool)*


----------



## krzychoo (Oct 2, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (BennyB)*








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## germanthunder81 (May 1, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (krzychoo)*

mad props dude


----------



## polov8 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (germanthunder81)*

Ok, this is just Rude now, Put the TIG welder down, and power down the milling machine, and go back to the hammers and chisels like the rest of us!
You're raising the grade point average, and that means Chewie looks even more useless than usual


----------



## Rannoch (Mar 19, 2008)

*FV-QR*

We were ok with the steel welding but the aluminum welding?
You're making the rest of us garage monkeys look bad.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (Rannoch)*

It's not my intention to 1-up anyone! In fact, if I was using a hammer and chisel and going back to my farm-boy arc-welder roots, I'd be done by now.
I was reading about "The Mythical Man-Month" which is better known for analyzing software projects and how adding many people on the project to finish sooner might actually make it take longer. But more interesting is the "Second System Effect" which says that the second design of an engineer is usually loaded down with extra unnecessary detail that was not captured in the first because they overcompensate. If I consider my Formula SAE car design as the first real major project, then that makes this my second and I understand now why its taking me so long.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*FV-QR*

I was tying to have the car "mobile" this weekend to be able to roll it in and out of the garage. Ran short on time again, but was able to get most of the suspension done on one side and most of the pieces for the other side. Still have the tie rods/mounts to do since I didn't realize the MK4 tie rod ends are different and I only have one of them. I also ran into a problem making the clevice joints for the lower arms since the 1.25" bar stock I had turns out to be high carbon steel of some kind and not very machinable. I was able to make one, but the other one melted my 1/2" end mill and a bunch of drill bits since it got too hot and hardened.








Using 1"x2"x.065" wall for the lower arm front mount and it's tacked in for now. This will take part of the load and there will be a mount underneath each joint to connect it into the floorpan. 








Also painted the spindles and the backs of the hubs with POR15 semi-gloss black.



















_Modified by BennyB at 11:03 PM 3-21-2010_


----------



## punchbug (Jul 15, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_
I understand now why its taking me so long.


Are you kidding me? There are lots of people who can "paper plan" a project like this (though not in this detail), and there are others who just go out to the shop and start cutting and welding. What impresses me most about this thread is that you've done *BOTH* with no real gaps in forward progress, despite how it may feel to you. This is a HUGE undertaking, and I'm impressed as hell that it's come to where it is ready to roll around this soon! 
There's a Delorean restoration thread called "Project Vixen", and he talks about "Gumption Traps", you know those invisible small things that stop you from progressing? Seems to me that you never hit those! 
(reference here: http://www.projectvixen.com/zen.htm)
I love this thread, and hope to see this car when its done. This is truly inspiring. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by punchbug at 4:52 AM 3-22-2010_


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (punchbug)*

I really liked that article. I think part of the reason I avoid some of those traps is that I take time to just look at the car and think about it (like the article suggests). But it is really neat how those little things get to you and take away the gumption. I think thats why I've sold a few of my cars after putting alot of work into them. Just lacked the gumption to put up with them.
I had lots of gumption this weekend, and the VR6 is rolling on the ground!
But I'm beat. More to follow tomorrow.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (BennyB)*

Big on the list to finish this past weekend was the tie rods: 








The locknut on the inner rod end is too close to the transmission/subframe to be easy to loosen when doing an alignment, so I made the adjustment farther outboard. I ordered a M14x1.5 left-hand tap to do the inner thread and made both threads on the adjuster piece on the lathe. One of the the threads ended up a bit too loose so I'll have to make another one. The plan is to press on a slice of hex bar in the center section to get a wrench on it.
Probably a record for largest rear brakes on a Scirocco!
My calculations call for a 10" vented rotor, but these came with the spindles and bolt on for now.








I've never been a big fan of abrasive cutoff wheels, since they're smelly and the heat can harden the steel. So I picked up a 7.25" Freud "Steel Demon" disc for the 10" mitre saw. It's rated for 1/8" steel, but I was able to use it on 1-1/4" solid bar by taking it easy and keeping the blade cool with WD40. The 10" disc would end up with too fast of a cutting speed on my cheap mitre saw, but the 7.25" doesn't quite reach the bottom. The V-blocks raise the bar up and lock it down and the end result is a super clean cut.








I had a bunch of spacers and bushings to make this weekend, but it's finally all bolted in and rolling on the ground on junker wheels. It all worked out well with the wheel located a few mm from centered in the wheel well.








So next on the todo list is to start the damper mounts and bellcranks so that it can ride on something other than pieces of tubing.




_Modified by BennyB at 11:33 AM 3-29-2010_


----------



## ArpyArpad (Jan 4, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_
I've never been a big fan of abrasive cutoff wheels, since they're smelly and the heat can harden the steel. So I picked up a 7.25" Freud "Steel Demon" disc for the 10" mitre saw. It's rated for 1/8" steel, but I was able to use it on 1-1/4" solid bar by taking it easy and keeping the blade cool with WD40. The 10" disc would end up with too fast of a cutting speed on my cheap mitre saw, but the 7.25" doesn't quite reach the bottom. The V-blocks raise the bar up and lock it down and the end result is a super clean cut.


could you rotate the piece a bit to make the cut easier? cut a little then rotate and finish the cut.


_Modified by ArpyArpad at 4:37 PM 3-29-2010_


----------



## JJ2K1 (Apr 10, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (ArpyArpad)*

Superb work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Pedal2Metal (Nov 3, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (JJ2K1)*

Yea, very cool stuff! Makes me want to got to school for CAD


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *ArpyArpad* »_
could you rotate the piece a bit to make the cut easier? cut a little then rotate and finish the cut.


I've done that before, but when grinding it since it was getting so hot with a long surface to cut. It was actually pretty quick cutting the 1.25", maybe 15-20 seconds depending how much coolant(wd40) I applied.

_Quote, originally posted by *Pedal2Metal* »_Yea, very cool stuff! Makes me want to got to school for CAD


No need to go to school.. I only had basic drafting and learned all the CAD on my own. Just need to find a CAD application like ProEngineer, Solidworks and they usually come with a tutorial file and have cheap student versions (or sometimes free). 


_Modified by BennyB at 8:13 PM 3-29-2010_


----------



## Craige-O (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (BennyB)*

Just speechless here.. Your work is amazing!


----------



## JettaVR99 (Aug 14, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Craige-O)*

This is some great work! Looking forward to keeping up with this. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 88Jetta350 (May 4, 2007)

*FV-QR*

some awesome fab work here. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif look forward to seeing it completed.


----------



## Pedal2Metal (Nov 3, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (BennyB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BennyB* »_
No need to go to school.. I only had basic drafting and learned all the CAD on my own. Just need to find a CAD application like ProEngineer, Solidworks and they usually come with a tutorial file and have cheap student versions (or sometimes free). 

True; at my last job they were too cheap to pay for training... so I had to learn Strata 3D & Cinema 4D on my own. I guess it's no different.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*FV-QR*

I started planning some of the wiring, but realized that I don't have the wiring diagrams for the harness. Does anyone have a copy or know where to get one? its a 2003 24V VR6. not sure if its GLI or GTI, but I don't think it matters.
I picked up a galletto 1260, and I'm trying to set it up to do my own custom tune and immo delete. But I don't think the ECU pinout is the same as the 1.8T or 2.7T. Trying to get it in boot mode and it's not working.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*FV-QR*

I've got the wiring diagrams now, so I'm starting to work on getting all of that together and ready to go. I picked up a MK4 in-tank fuel pump, which just simplifies a bunch of things if I build it into the fuel tank.
After 3 years of looking, I finally found a deal on a set of seats. Had to drop everything and drive an hour each way last night, but it was worth it. The sliders bolt straight in, no mods required. Even the seat belt buckles work with the scirocco ones.


----------



## 87REDROCC (Nov 21, 2009)

nice find!!!!!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*FV-QR*

After the intense build session, I've been back to doing some required design work:
*Shifter*
It turns out that the left-right motion of the MK1 shifter matches the 02M transmission if I use the original shift rod with it 120mm arm to drive a cable to the transmission. Only problem is that the motion is reversed. I could flip the 120mm arm 180 degrees to the bottom (likely not clear), or make a 1:1 lever. Still need to work that out.
Mk1 
absolute (mm) gate width (mm)	gate center (mm)	relay rod distance (mm)	shift rod angle (deg)	shift dist (mm)
R 33.25 29.86 3.39 -14.45 -22.12 -10.62 -44.24
1-2 39.85 37.03 2.82 -7.56 -11.58 -5.54 -23.15
3-4 46.00 45.22 0.78 -0.39 -0.60 -0.29 -1.19
5 53.00 51.50 1.50 6.25 9.57  4.57 19.14

Mk4
absolute (mm) gate width (mm)	gate center (mm)	relay rod distance (mm)	shift rod angle (deg)	shift dist (mm)
R 29.4 30.5 -1.10 -13.65 -20.48 -9.82 -40.95
12 36.8 37.8 -1.00 -6.30 -9.45 -4.52 -18.90
34 43.6 44.6 -1.00 0.50 0.75 0.36 1.50
5 50.6 51.6 -1.00 7.50 11.25 5.38 22.50
*modified: ugh.. those charts look ugly.. I'll have to make some images or something.
I'm still working the numbers for front/back motion. I really want to avoid using the rubber ball, so I'll probably attach the cable directly to the main shift rod somehow.
*Front Brakes*
I'm making some caliper brackets to mount the Girling60s on the front with 11" Corrado rotors. I could buy them off the shelf from MMP or Hyperformance, but I can make them for less than $25. I'll try and get some pics when I start machining. Just waiting for the rotors to come in. The calipers are pretty heavy, so eventually it'll get some Wilwoods or something. But the bias ratio works out perfect right now with the Girling60 in the front and Girling54 in the back, although to get the rotors thermally matched, the rears should be 10" and not 11" rotors. 
*Rear Frame/Rollbar*
This ones a bit tricky.. I'll try and get some CAD posted. But the idea is that 1-1/2" bars of rollcage tubing form the framework to enclose the engine bay on either side. These will be braced into the chassis at the sides and closed in with sheet metal. Then there will be removable structural panels to allow engine access, but also to prevent warp in the chassis. That's the hard part, since I want easy access to the engine but not too many bolts to make it annoying. So I'm still working on that one. The framework will also have fixed points built in to bolt in a roll bar and racing belt mounts.



_Modified by BennyB at 5:32 PM 4-29-2010_


----------



## laminaytrap (Oct 31, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (BennyB)*

You'll definitely get all this figured out, due to the fact that you have excellent engineering skills. It's good to see you're still making solid progress, I just finished my ABA short block swap, i hope to see that thing running around this summer, it's going to be a truly awesome machine, and more so with the amount of thought you've put into it and the specific application of the components you are using. I imagine it would be a massive undertaking, but i envy that you have the shop and enough time here and there to take on such a project. Again if you ever need a hand IM me you're not far away.


----------



## A2_DeLand (Feb 21, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (laminaytrap)*

You are a God sir!!!









Topic Watched!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## andrew1984 (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (A2_DeLand)*

cool project, keep it up


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

I finally got around to ordering a serial eeprom burner. I'm now able to read and write the little 8pin eeprom on the back of the ECU. Also ordered a special clip so I don't have to unsolder it. 








Was able to modify a couple values to disable the immobilizer and it looks like it may have worked. There are no codes for invalid checksum when I hook it up to the vagcom on the bench harness. I won't really know until I try to start the engine (which should be soon). Ran to the scrap yard at lunch to pick up a few missing connectors, and now the only big issue is supplying it with fuel. I may just run the fuel pump in a bucket of fuel.. I really want to hear it fire up.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

It lives! (sort of)

I sorted through the wiring to figure out what needed to be connected, then hooked it all up to a battery in the back. Fuel pump was in a bucket on the floor. Also no cooling or exhaust hooked up. But now I know the engine isn't junk, and my immobilizer defeat worked.


----------



## JaymesW (Jun 27, 2008)

bravo


----------



## Rocco_julie (Jul 12, 2006)

I cant wait to see this car in person


----------



## type53b_gtd (Feb 27, 2006)

Nicely done Ben. That thing sounds like a lion that's trying to avoid castration in the worst way.


----------



## Rannoch (Mar 19, 2008)

That's pretty awesome right there. Literally inspires awe.

Any thoughts on how you'll be dividing the engine from the cabin?


----------



## Chris16vRocco (Apr 30, 2006)

Fantastic work! I too would love to see this thing in person.


----------



## cabrlicious (Jan 27, 2008)

*ecu*

that's the stock 24v ecu that you flashed?


----------



## Rocco_crossing (Dec 19, 2002)

Sweet!! Cincy 2011??


----------



## mk1jettas (May 9, 2010)

holy crap! can't wait to see this thing go!


----------



## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

I love the giggle after shutting it down. It's impossible not to do that on the first fire-up of any project. 

Congrats, this is one of the coolest builds on the Vortex. 

Brendan


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

cabrlicious said:


> that's the stock 24v ecu that you flashed?


as far as I can tell, it hasn't been chipped. I haven't really got into the meat of the tuning part yet.



Rocco_crossing said:


> Sweet!! Cincy 2011??


should really have been cincy 2010, but thats a real stretch (unless I quit my job)



Rannoch said:


> That's pretty awesome right there. Literally inspires awe.
> 
> Any thoughts on how you'll be dividing the engine from the cabin?


Actually, lots of thoughts. It's been quite a bit of a puzzle, since I want the closeout to be structural and as light as possible. It also needs to incorporate the hard points for a bolt-in roll bar. I also wanted to match in with the interior trim line that follows the real parcel shelf. That makes it a bit tight to the top of the engine, but it should be ok.


























The main frame is 1.5"x0.065" steel with the closeout panels using 1" aluminum which will be covered with aluminum sheet and some kind of foam core for noise 

I've started building the main frame part so that I can move on to making attachment points for the bellcrank and spring/damper.


----------



## Rocco_crossing (Dec 19, 2002)

For sound deadening check these guys out! I had 3-layers (1/2-2/3 of a gal) of the eDead V3 on the floor of my Golf, ABA 2.0 which had 2.5" straightpipe with race muffler, and it was VERY streetable inside!!

http://www.edesignaudio.com/index.php?cPath=1_24

The V5 cTherm looks AWESOME, but I have not tried it yet.


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

I like the kid in the background. "That's my dad's car, really loud, really loud". And probably your wife giggling.
Great job!


----------



## Rocco_crossing (Dec 19, 2002)

J. Daniel said:


> I like the kid in the background. "That's my dad's car, really loud, really loud". And probably your wife giggling.
> Great job!


LOL, ya I giggled at that too! Someday I'll have one running around like that!


----------



## cabrlicious (Jan 27, 2008)

*heat + noise*



Rocco_crossing said:


> For sound deadening check these guys out! I had 3-layers (1/2-2/3 of a gal) of the eDead V3 on the floor of my Golf, ABA 2.0 which had 2.5" straightpipe with race muffler, and it was VERY streetable inside!!
> 
> http://www.edesignaudio.com/index.php?cPath=1_24
> 
> The V5 cTherm looks AWESOME, but I have not tried it yet.


I talked to them today about what to do for my rabbits floors. They suggested eDead 45 (like dynamat, for low freq noise), then a layer of eDead V5 cTherm (for heat) and on top of that eDead v4 - TekLite (for high freq road noise). I should be very comfortable in my rabbit


----------



## Rocko'sEuroGTi (Feb 2, 2005)

You are making my teenage fantasy come true. Can't wait to see it done!


----------



## Rocco_crossing (Dec 19, 2002)

cabrlicious said:


> I talked to them today about what to do for my rabbits floors. They suggested eDead 45 (like dynamat, for low freq noise), then a layer of eDead V5 cTherm (for heat) and on top of that eDead v4 - TekLite (for high freq road noise). I should be very comfortable in my rabbit


They have some awesome stuff and GREAT customer service! Very knowledgeable!! They make some kick a$$ home theater stuff too!!

Back the the MKI at hand. BEAUTIFUL!!


----------



## echassin (Dec 28, 2005)

Spectacular build :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:!!!


----------



## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)




----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

Thanks for the encouragement guys, it really helps the motivation..
I'm currently working on the red car to get some things done for Cincy, but then I'll be back onto the VR6 when I get back. 374 days to Cincy 2011!


----------



## mik3d (May 18, 2006)

sciroccos were not made for vr's.. but your doing a nice job


----------



## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

mik3d said:


> sciroccos were not made for vr's.. but your doing a nice job



Well if you're putting a VR in the front and completely unbalancing the chassis then I'd agree.
That isn't the case here.


----------



## atoson (Dec 29, 2002)

Supr!


----------



## VolksAddict (Aug 9, 2004)

Great work in here!


----------



## woody16v (Sep 21, 2009)

i have loved every single update to this thread but hearing it start for the first time was most excellent! 
especially the way everything is thought out and planned then executed, love seeing the CAD stuff (did some of that in h.s. and college so its fun to see) great job sir. 

cant wait to see this in person!!!


----------



## Glitch481 (Aug 4, 2010)

*Ahhhh!*

This thread made me actually get an account just so I could complain! I was looking forward to seeing a finished car on page nine!!  :banghead: LOL! 
But you are doing a great job! And if you have the time can you send me the pics of the CAD screen shots so I can blow them up to look at them better? 

Also, what are you going to do with the Intake? How are you going to mount that?


----------



## laminaytrap (Oct 31, 2009)

Benny!

Where are the updates???

Jon


----------



## garasja (May 12, 2010)

You doing a great job. Check out my rwd project.


----------



## vwkid_Zach (Dec 14, 2007)

BennyB said:


> Aquired the following parts:
> - complete timing chain kit
> - metal head gasket
> - all new seals
> ...


Oh so thats how you learn all this CAD mumbo jumbo.... pass the pipe bud. We all want a Mid engine VR6 rocco now

Zach


----------



## All Eyez on me (May 13, 2010)

Found this thread here today...and what should I say?

DAMN THIS IST HOT!!! :thumbup:

One of the most indcredible builds I´ve ever seen. (And I have seen a lot of builds in my life...)

How do you pay the cost for those builds? With a normally job you can´t do something like this here in germany...

Impressed regards...


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

Just a quick note to confirm that I'm not dead, and I still think about this project every day! I found a house with more suitable shop space - 28x30 with a loft for storage and a lean off the side to store 2 more cars. But that requires selling this house which has been alot of work lately. I've been purposefully avoining vwvortex because it's a time vortex, but I miss everyone!


----------



## cabrlicious (Jan 27, 2008)

cmon benny sell that house, build that car.


----------



## garasja (May 12, 2010)

what happen with this project? give us a update please


----------



## mk1daily (Jan 7, 2010)

garasja said:


> what happen with this project? give us a update please


:wave:

Project looks amazing :heart:


----------



## atoson (Dec 29, 2002)

*5 years in the making*

If anyone notices that this thread started in 2006. Let's just give this guy the credit he truly deserves specially if gets this rolling.


----------



## punchbug (Jul 15, 2000)

atoson said:


> If anyone notices that this thread started in 2006. Let's just give this guy the credit he truly deserves specially if gets this rolling.


I recall going with Ben way back in the day to get a pair of LSDs and gettting messed up at the border. He had that car then and I sincerely doubt that he'll be ignoring it any time soon. I just had the one Scirocco the first time I saw that car, and at that time he'd just done the heroic overnight marathon 16V swap with friend who also did one. So once he gets his housing settled, I'd expect this build to make huge advances very quickly. Best of luck with it Ben!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

hey, I'm still alive. The new place needs some work, but part of that was the electrical line I just finished out to the garage. It was only 220V 30 amp on 12 gauge before, now I'm cookin' with 220V 100amp on 3gauge wires! Various welder and machinery hookups still needed.

There's tons more space, all of it seems to be occupied by all the junk I had in 1/4 the area at the last place. It will take some time to get organized. 

No height for a hoist, but I'm thankful for the 2nd floor storage instead and the car is sitting over a pit. Never used a pit before, I'm sure it will help. Once I get everything sorted, there will be lots of room to get things done quick!


















I was going to put a big push on, but we decided import an '83 Westy from California to BC and drive it back to Ontario. Should be a fun trip with the family!


----------



## .T.o.n.y. (Apr 3, 2003)

Looks awesome. :thumbup:


----------



## sciroccokidJ (Jun 26, 2011)

hey im thinkn about doin the same thing i have n 86' scirocco and i got the vr6 motor from a 94 golf gli  but i've seen the motor put in the front lik usual so to c it how ur goin is gonna b unique u got props from me!!!  keep us posted.


----------



## TREKSportMK3 (Feb 1, 2009)

just had to bump this, hope we can see it get finished soon, ive thought about some crazy projects, but the in depth detail youve put into this is so intense, my mind cant even follow, and its abstract!


----------



## WRC_413X (Mar 28, 2006)

Insane project, i always love seeing someone go out of the standard engineering mod comfort zone and making it whatever they want!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

Time to revive the thread. Now that I finally finished writing my master's thesis, I can work on the car again guilt free! There are some cool parts I've picked up along the way that I should get pictures of (aluminum fuel tank, Bosch 044 pump, Wilwood front brakes and adapters, clutch master) 

The Task list: 

hydraulic clutch pedal 

master mount 
get linkage clip holder 
acquire line for fitting calculations 
fabricate line and mounts 

M14 LH lock nuts 
Build rear cage/closeout 
exhaust 

get V-band clamp 
get muffler 
build downpipe 
build tailpipes 
muffler hangers 
02 sensor bungs 

cooling system 

purchase heater core bypass 
source alt/water pump belt 
front rad mounts 
front rad lines and mounts 
coolant reservoir mount and plumbing 
rad fan wiring 
main rad plumbing 
heater core plumbing 
coolant temp 

electrical 

battery mount 
starter wiring 
engine wiring 
ECU mount 
electronic throttle pedal 
tach signal 
speedo driver 
oil temp 
alternator light 
oil pressure light 
MIL light 
OBD connector 

shifter linkage 
modify half-shafts 
suspension 

fix front cross mount 
subframe 
rear supports 
cross support 
tie rod mount top braces 
bolts or isolation mounts 
rocker arms 
rocker arm mounts 
upper damper eyelets 
lower damper eyelets 
pushrods 
pushrod mounts 
design ARB 

fuel system 

tank mounts 
pump/filter mount 
pump wiring 
make -6AN to M14x1.5 and M12x1.5 fittings 
fuel lines 
fuel level sender 

wheels\tires 

source tires 
machine wheel centers 
build wheels 
get tuner bolts? 

rear brakes 

Source rear spot calipers 
design/build rear spot caliper mount 

remake tie rod threaded adjuster


----------



## TBerk (Oct 9, 2000)

Tanna Leaves to you my friend, welcome back!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

Yes, it has been a while. Other mid engine MK1 Sciroccos have been built in my absence! 

Here is the 11gal (40L) aluminum tank I happened to find that was exactly what I was looking for. I wanted something rearward mounted and tall in the front, so there was room between it and the radiator for a 'crush zone' in an accident. 










so that spawned getting some pieces for the fuel system sorted out. 
Bosch 0 580 254 044. Minumum flow at 5bar operating pressure = 300 Litres per hour and good for 700hp. M18x1.5 inlet threads, M12x1.5 outlet. I ordered the M18x1.5 to -8AN adapter for the inlet and a screen filter to keep the big junk out of the pump. I'm still sorting out the pump to filter connection. I might just use the banjo bolts somehow, since that way I can use the check valve on the pump outlet. I'm just concerned about the flow restriction with the banjo fittings. I made an adapter for the other side of the filter to the push-on MK4 fuel line fitting.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

I haven't done any CAD in a while, so it was fun to get back into it with a MK4 clutch master:


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

Making an M12 banjo bolt to 3/8"ID hose adapter for the fuel pump. Temporary, until I can order some -6AN fittings 

Starting with some 3/4" aluminum hex stock, I cut the nipple part and crucially, a 60deg angle 









Here's where it gets interesting. Lining it up took some fussing about. I needed a bit more taken taken off the angled part to center it better 









cut the face, drill it out. I had pre-drilled into the center when I made the nipple, which was a mistake since the drill bit wobbled when it encountered the sideways hole. Next time I would only drill it part way and then just hand drill out the last bit. 









I didn't really have a good tool to cut the relief on the inside bore for the fuel to flow, but an internal thread tool wasn't bad. 

Finished: 









Made some for the fuel filter too, but much simpler 









Got a 2.5" V-band clamp and 2.5" Magnaflow muffler for the exhaust. I still need to order some stainless bends though. 









exhaust layout: 









Lots to do still, but I want to get it briefly running again just so I know it isn't all seized up.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

I was working on some wiring last night. I am now lamenting having removed the battery tray when I relocated the battery to the trunk earlier in the car's life. Now the battery has to go back to the front. 

I took the carpet out for now and removed sound deadening. I don't think it will do much sound isolation in that location with the engine in the back now! Floors are not good under the front seat mount.  









Trifecta of bad wiring: 









Had a black and white visitor(between door and stairs) while I was sitting at the fuse panel unwrapping wiring loom. he walked right by the open passenger side door and rooted around in the back of the shop for a while before getting bored and leaving.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

This beer kicks my ass, and makes it hard to get anything done. Any other tallboy after work and I don't even notice. 









At least I hit the scrap yard and found the weird clutch master fitting:


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Clutch Master*

I've been working on the hydraulic clutch master and pedal mod. I used lots of info from FunkSoulKitty.org (thanks!) and changed it a bit so I can bolt on the pedal adapter and not remove the steering column to take the pedal off. I also moved the master a bit lower so it doesn't need as much angle on the firewall spacer. The other notable difference is that I'm working on a clip adapter to use the standard MK4 clip so I don't have to modify the master cylinder at all.


----------



## VWsciroccoWV (Nov 15, 2010)

You have no idea how happy I am, and I'm sure the rest of the scirocco community, to see this is still alive! I came across this thread a while ago and saw that posts just sorta... Stopped. 

Glad to see you're still doing this, that thing's gonna be a monster! Good luck!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

I just finished my MSc in Engineering last week, which I started in 2003. So now that I'm done, I get to work on the Scirocco again. It was a self imposed rule (sometimes broken) to stimulate the 'gumption' required to finish writing my thesis. So if I can hold off building a second bathroom for a while, I should be able to get moving on this.


----------



## atoson (Dec 29, 2002)

Congratulation! Long time coming:thumbup:


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

Thanks. If anyone is ever interested in reading about a "_Control System and Simulation Design for an All-Wheel-Drive Formula SAE Car Using a Neural Network Estimated Slip Angle Velocity_" 
here is the link: http://hdl.handle.net/10214/3974 

I finished the clip bracket tonight: 









Final pieces to make (for the clutch) are the engine side angle bracket with a slight taper of about 3 deg, and the inside firewall reinforcing plates.


----------



## d-bot (Sep 6, 2004)

The clip in MC is a great idea. I've thought about doing it that way in the past but always threaded the MC push rod instead and added a rod end. Keep up the good progress :thumbup:


----------



## definition56 (Jan 8, 2005)

BennyB said:


> Thanks. If anyone is ever interested in reading about a "_Control System and Simulation Design for an All-Wheel-Drive Formula SAE Car Using a Neural Network Estimated Slip Angle Velocity_"
> here is the link: http://hdl.handle.net/10214/3974
> 
> I finished the clip bracket tonight:
> ...


 Just speed read that. So he's using an ECU to control how the car handles.....couldn't he just say that? Neural Network estimated slip angle velocity?....sheesh. :laugh: 

Great build btw. :thumbup:


----------



## tnesh (Apr 5, 2000)




----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

d-bot said:


> The clip in MC is a great idea. I've thought about doing it that way in the past but always threaded the MC push rod instead and added a rod end. Keep up the good progress :thumbup:


 If I did it again, I would go that way, since then there is an easy depth adjustment. The clip was more of a pain to make than I expected. The bar stock I was going to machine it from was too hard and killed a cutter, so I switched it up an bent a U channel from 2mm sheet steel and machined the slots after welding it to the base piece. 

I started making some adapters to connect the slave bleeder and master to -4AN fittings. I could have spliced the piece of line I have but don't have easy access to 6mm bubble flare fittings. 

I'm making an extra set while I'm at it( if anyone else goes this route). 
I got stuck here because I need to buy a thinner tool to cut the grooves.


----------



## websaabn (May 23, 2003)

amazing work, Motivates me to get out in the garage and get to work on my Europa!


----------



## WRC_413X (Mar 28, 2006)

Awesome fab work, keep it going!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

I've been holding off posting until I have some significant progress, so here goes:

You may remember my plans to enclose the engine bay from the cabin with removable structural panels. If not, here's the CAD:









I started by making the main top piece that has two panels. However, the panels are starting out joined in the center to keep things square until the framework is welded into the chassis. Each panel is made in aluminum and has a main 1.5" tubular cross piece with solid plugs welded into each end, tapped for an M12 bolt. The remaining structure is made from 1" square tubing and 1" angle to overlap the chassis frame and provide a sealing surface.

This is the start of construction on the main top side framework and panels:









Jon came by to help and keep me motivated:









More welding on the front panel:









I had to v-groove the top side welds so they end up fairly flush. This is so the sheeting for the top side sits flat once it gets installed.









I started by jacking up the chassis and levelling it side to side so that there isn't any warp. Then lining up the main panel with the rear parcel shelf sides, matching the interior line that is just below the rear quarter windows.









Here you can see it from the side:









Front side with the front panel:









Loosening the main side bolts, the panel tilts out. This will also require a bolt at each of the top corners to be removed (once I get those installed that is).









Lots of work left to tie the framework into the chassis, and provide a way to bolt the corners of the panels in. Once the framework is complete, I can start setting up the suspension rocker arm and coilover mount points.


----------



## BigFoot3 (Sep 1, 2004)

That structural engine cover looks great!! As a fellow post-Formula SAE member I love when form meets function as elegantly as those covers do.

Do the top pieces swing to allow access for service also? (Assuming the front one is swinging on purpose)

What are you planning on using for noise and heat insulation on those, if you are?


----------



## polov8 (Apr 14, 2004)

Great to see things progressing! That engine cover looks lovely!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

Yes, Formula SAE taught me to triangulate everything and to look for load paths.
The panels will be sheeted in aluminum. On the bottom side, I'm was contemplating a thin layer of fibreglass batting for heat and noise, then a layer of radiant heat reflection. Top side could then be dynamat with the carpet on top. I'll admit, it is going to be a real challenge to keep noise levels down in the cabin without the isolation from a vertical firewall/window that most mid engine cars have.


----------



## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

Some bit of noise is a good thing, especially from a VR6. 

Looking great, really glad to see things coming along with this.

Brendan


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

Goal: enough sound isolation that I don't need ear protectors 
Stretch Goal: able to talk to my passenger without yelling


----------



## Rannoch (Mar 19, 2008)

BennyB said:


> Yes, Formula SAE taught me to triangulate everything and to look for load paths.
> The panels will be sheeted in aluminum. On the bottom side, I'm was contemplating a thin layer of fibreglass batting for heat and noise, then a layer of radiant heat reflection. Top side could then be dynamat with the carpet on top. I'll admit, it is going to be a real challenge to keep noise levels down in the cabin without the isolation from a vertical firewall/window that most mid engine cars have.


You should be able to use some sort of generic hood liner as seen here:
According to the following thread it was ~$28 at a pepboys for a roll. 








Source: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=156079


----------



## the4ork (Mar 10, 2003)

subscribed.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Making a merge collector*

So I'm finally back in the shop after renovating almost all of my house plumbing (water softener, distribution manifold, sewage basin/pump). 

Tackling another major project, which is the exhaust. So here's a bit of a primer on making a merge collector. It's a bit overkill for a 2-1 merge, since you can do it with a chop saw as well. I've used it for 4-1 collectors which are much more tricky. 

I started with a 45deg 2" mandrel bend. I would normally buy the required number of 15deg bends individually so there's straight sections attached to the inlets, but this was more economical. 

I made up the template from a CAD drawing of the pipe that is 'unwrapped' onto a flat plane, then printed to scale. 

Mark the centerline of the pipe on both sides, 1" up from the table: 









Find the start of the bend. On the inside is best, since the outside tends to stretch narrower past the real start of the bend. 









Tape on the template, lining up the long side with the centerline, and the edge of the bend. I make little tick marks working from the paper out so the sharpie doesn't bleed under the paper: 

















Flip over and trace the other side. Then plasma cut (or grinder with cutoff disc): 









Here I cut the other side to 15degs of bend, using the chop/miter saw: 









Grind the heavy edges off, then sand flat on the belt sander for a nice fit: 









Test fitting: 









Before welding the merge collector I welded the inlet pipes first, so that the weld was easy to do all the way around: 









Now all welded together: 









I didn't picture it here, but the finished collector is a bit oval shaped. I worked it with a hammer a bit to make it round and just under 2-1/4" at the merge. Also important to clean up the welds on the inside to smooth everything out. I used a die grinder and also a dremel with a flex extension. Still yet to do that for the inlet pipe welds here: 









A key part of the collector is the smooth expansion immediately after the merge. I don't have alot of room, so the transition is a bit short (40mm to bump to 2-1/2"). Measuring for 4 v-notches here: 









The pipe ends up a bit square shaped with only 4 cuts, but easily worked round again by hammering over some pipe: 

















Finished this section. There's a 15deg turndown to the muffler, and some 90 deg bends + flex couplers up to the manifolds yet to do. Oh and exhaust hangers and O2 sensor bung and all that. At least its a start. 









I left my paper tempate on the bench while plasma cutting, so it is no more. :facepalm: 









I'm really looking forward to hearing it with a proper exhaust. One of the benefits of redoing the downpipe is that both secondary runners are now equal length. I'm hoping that doesn't mess with the characteristic VR6 sound, which is very important to me.


----------



## crazyaboutrocs (Nov 23, 2005)

Great work there. :thumbup: Nice budget chopsaw too-gotta love the Freud metal cutting circ blade.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

crazyaboutrocs said:


> Great work there. :thumbup: Nice budget chopsaw too-gotta love the Freud metal cutting circ blade.


 Thanks. I could only find a 7in ferrous metal blade so it won't cut all the way through most things unless I jig it up higher. But it does keep the cutting speed down with the smaller diameter, which helps for thicker steel.


----------



## garasja (May 12, 2010)

Keep up the good work: P


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*exhaust pt 2*

One side of the downpipe is mocked up. There may not be enough room for the whole downpipe to fit through the opening. I will know soon enough.


----------



## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

I learned something today.  

Thanks for sharing the merge collector build. 

Brendan


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Exhaust Complete*

I finished up the exhaust this weekend. Soooo much die grinding to make sure all the internal transitions are smooth. I don't like the outlet/tip. I tried to make something a bit oval shaped but it's coming out at the wrong angle. It's hard to get an idea of what it looks like, but these are the best shots: 


































I also messed around with an old set of Formula SAE aluminum bellcranks for the suspension and it looks like they should work with some modifications for larger bearings. So the next steps are to get it rolling with proper suspension and axles in the rear. 

Brake calipers for the rear are on order as well, which is the last of the major bits I need, other than tires. The rest is all fab and machine work. Wilwood has new mechanical brake calipers which look to be much more substantial than their tiny spot calipers, which would only be useful for parking. Supports 11" vented rotors. Hopefully the 16V rear disc cables and stock mechanism will work. They will be combined with the forged dynalite calipers on the rear.


----------



## polov8 (Apr 14, 2004)

Great work, I'm loving this thread, makes me feel bad that my Storm has gone nowhere in years, so keep it up and maybe I'll pull my finger out and get something done!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

polov8 said:


> Great work, I'm loving this thread, makes me feel bad that my Storm has gone nowhere in years, so keep it up and maybe I'll pull my finger out and get something done!


A healthy dose of inspiration always helps me going. I usually use youtube videos of VR6s with my headphones on loud.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*BBS Wheels*

I mounted a pair of 215-40/15 Dunlop SP9000 onto the BBS RS080 9J wheels. I have to admit-- it's too much strech and too small of an outer diameter for my taste (although I'm sure some would disagree opcorn: ). I do have 6" inner barrels that can drop it to 8.5" wide and that may help. I think I'll reserve judgement for when its on the ground and set to the correct ride height. The plan was to match these with 195-45/15 in the front on the 7.5J wheels but I don't have the tires yet.


----------



## d-bot (Sep 6, 2004)

I would say those tires are perfect but I see what you mean. Once it's on the ground it may sit perfect since the tire makes some clearance for the inner fender lip.


----------



## mellbergVWfan (Jan 31, 2008)

Go with some meaty 245's. All this work with the VR6 in the back means the car should be driven hard!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

I broke down and ordered a set of BfGoodrich g-force Rival (new tire) in 225-45/15 and 205-50/15 for the front. I've seen some pics mounted on 15x9 in the Miata forums and it looks more reasonable. They're heavily petitioning the tire companies to make 245s in a streetable tire, but no luck yet. There are a couple options for really wide, track-only tires though.


----------



## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

:thumbup:

Brendan


----------



## trocco84 (Jun 21, 2012)

This thing is awesome...


----------



## mellbergVWfan (Jan 31, 2008)

BennyB said:


> I broke down and ordered a set of BfGoodrich g-force Rival (new tire) in 225-45/15 and 205-50/15 for the front. I've seen some pics mounted on 15x9 in the Miata forums and it looks more reasonable. They're heavily petitioning the tire companies to make 245s in a streetable tire, but no luck yet. There are a couple options for really wide, track-only tires though.


Nice, the new Rivals should be a good tire. I have the little brother (Sport Comp 2's) and I've been pretty happy with the performance so far.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

mellbergVWfan said:


> Nice, the new Rivals should be a good tire. I have the little brother (Sport Comp 2's) and I've been pretty happy with the performance so far.


They should arrive today along with the Wilwood rear calipers and park brake calipers!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Random Specs*

Accessory belt for 24V VR6 with no AC and no power steering -> 1111mm works.. could be a tiny bit shorter.

Brake rotors:

```
Vehicle    OD     ID     Thickness  Face dia   Offset from front face     
MK4 TDI    280    165      22         145          14.5
MK4 VR6    287    160      25         150           9.5
G60        280    180      22         150          17
```


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Morning Machining Marathon*

These rod-end spacers for the suspension took much longer than I imagined and 4+ hours just rolled on by. I did make extras in the process, so that helps.










Lots more to come. I have a 4-day weekend and plan to use it all for building.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Suspension*

I was making good progress getting the spacers, bellcranks, and pushrods all assembled.










Unfortunately I ran into two problems. First is that I smashed up my index finger on the wire wheel when it caught a part, so its pretty much useless. So that is really slowing me down. Next is that the bellcrank pivot bolt can't be removed because the engine is in the way. So that whole mount assembly has to bolt in on the passenger side. There is more bracing required and the bolt needs to recess into that bit of frame.









There were other bits to finish welding and spacers to make for the control arms, which I had forgotten about. Hopefully I can have it resting on the suspension by the end of the weekend.


----------



## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

Amazing!!!

Question for you: What do you use to grind stainless? I was fooling around with welding stainless the other day and realized that when i tried to grind a weld clean, all of the bits/stones/wheels I had would hardly scratch it.....

Brendan


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

Lord_Verminaard said:


> Amazing!!!
> 
> Question for you: What do you use to grind stainless? I was fooling around with welding stainless the other day and realized that when i tried to grind a weld clean, all of the bits/stones/wheels I had would hardly scratch it.....
> 
> Brendan


Typically, I avoid grinding welds since that will significantly reduce the strength of the joint and is very prone to cracking. I don't know that I've done anything different to grind stainless but the welds especially would be hardened from the air tempering. It can be annealed to make it softer, but needs 1900F for an hour!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Wheels and Brakes*

I was able to get both the MC4 mechanical park brake caliper and the Dynalite Forged to co-exist on the rear spindle. They have different offsets so require two different brackets and a couple spacers. I drew the brackets up in CAD, printed a template and cut with the plasma cutter. It ended up with the park brake caliper sitting about 1.5mm too far out on the rotor because I forgot about the chamfer on the outside edge and there were some fabrication errors. Still useable for now.










You can see the 3/4" thick 5x100 to 5x130 adapters for the BBS wheels on there as well.










On the front, I drilled and tapped the hubs to 5x100 since I couldn't comfortably make a thin 4x100 to 5x114.3 adapter.










The adapter is 1/2" steel since it was too thin for aluminum. You can see here that I used a circle cutter I modified to work with the plasma cutter:










Finished on the car with the MMP adapters and lines for the front calipers:










And finally, all the wheels are bolted on the car, minus the hubcentric ring parts which I still need to make. You can see the new G-force Rival tires in 205/50-15 on 7.5" and 225/45-15on 9". There is poke on the rear since it needed another spacer in there with wheel bolts that are too long (to be fixed with studs in the adapters). Also, the front really needs to be 8" wide to match correctly but then would poke too much (clearance to strut on inside is small). I'll fix that with double wishbone front suspension 



















I really wanted to get this to Cincy this year, but it just comes down to the time it takes me to do things right initially. Also ran into a bit of a catastrophe with the axles that will be explained later. The plan is to finish off the rocker arm mounts for the suspension so that it gets down on the ground and over to the pit to work underneath on the clutch lines, park brake cables, brake lines, coolant lines, and shifter.


----------



## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

Amazing. Simply amazing. Seeing the wheels on the car really stirs up thoughts of a finished product. 

Hope you can make it to Cincy anyway even if the car won't make it this year.

Brendan


----------



## d-bot (Sep 6, 2004)

BennyB said:


> The adapter is 1/2" steel since it was too thin for aluminum. You can see here that I used a circle cutter I modified to work with the plasma cutter:


Any more pictures of this before it went on the car? Just want to see how you worked all the bolts/studs for this adapter.


----------



## MK1_F00L (Nov 13, 2001)

Looking good, wish I was working on my project scirocco... The longer it sits the more I come up with things to fab up.


----------



## scirocco*joe (Feb 23, 2002)

Benny! I managed to just find this build now. Great job, I of course am loving the green and gold combo. We will have to arrange a photo shoot with Cathy someday. 

One question, though. Any way to resurrect all of the old picture links? I had to imagine the first 8 or 9 pages of this thread. 

:thumbup:


----------



## MK1 Rabbit GTI (Jan 13, 2006)

what shocks are you using in the rear?


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

scirocco*joe said:


> One question, though. Any way to resurrect all of the old picture links? I had to imagine the first 8 or 9 pages of this thread.
> 
> :thumbup:


Thanks for the heads-up. I'm relinking the pics to my own hosting, but I'm only up to page 4 so far.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

MK1 Rabbit GTI said:


> what shocks are you using in the rear?


MK4 front FK coilovers-- so essentially Koni yellow dampers. They are twin-tube dampers and need to stay semi-vertical, so are a bit of a pain to package. Foruntately, with the rocker arms it switched the "active" side of the damper, so there's a good reduction of unsprung mass compared to a macpherson strut(ie. don't need to bounce around the heavy side of the damper).


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Back on all 4*

So it doesn't look like I'll make it to Vagkraft tomorrow, even just rolling it on to the trailer. The good news is that there is progress. The rear bellcranks and dampers are mounted, so the car will finally sit down on its wheels. 













The lower end of the dampers are mounted to the vertical bars which support the removable roll bar. I have a an issue with clearance on the one side that I still need to remedy with a spacer.









Brakes are installed on both sides, but need lines and park brake cables. They also need a small 0.5mm shim to get the offset corrected as everything is tight. The 0.81" width calipers are just barely wide enough for 22mm wide TDI rotors and new pads. The park brake caliper may need some slight modification to be wide enough as well.

I've shortened some axles to start with until I can get a custom set made:









Also had some 22ga sheet aluminum sheared to fit the panels. I need to make the bolt down mounts first, then will rivet and epoxy these to the frames.

















Electronic throttle pedal mounted and wired up:









Clutch master cylinder mounted and pedal bracket complete. Just needs the steel clutch line and it's done.









The major holdup is a certain level of fabrication quality that I expect of myself and can't seem to maintain while building as fast as I can. It always seems to take time to mull over design decisions in the background before I come up with something satisfactory. A good example is which sheet aluminum to use -- 20ga or 22ga. I want good sound isolation, but 20ga was more expensive and a pound or two heavier for a sheet. Ended up with 22ga to save the weight and will bead roll it if there are floppy sections. It will likely get some sort of sound insulation bonded to it, so should help stiffen it up. Now I need to figure out an easy way to recess socket head bolts for the panel mounts so they end up flush, and just figured out something in my head while writing this .


----------



## ziggirocco (Dec 13, 2010)

Keep it up, take the time to do it as you think it should be done, that way the few corners you think you cut will be kept to a minimum and bother you less in the long run. Car looks awesome!


----------



## polov8 (Apr 14, 2004)

Benny, are you going to be triangulating that square tube that the bell crank is mounted off? I can see it flexing in your video as the full suspension load is put into the middle of it.


----------



## KmEuro (Apr 20, 2012)

Damn so do you have more mods now ????


----------



## 35i 2000 (Jan 27, 2005)

this is a really incredible build! hope to see around the meets/shows/events in toronto in 2014


----------



## MacGyver93 (Aug 16, 2011)

this is the sickest thing! any progress?


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

I started it today  
the alternator and starter are a bit seized and the fuel is quite varnished.. needs some TLC. Worked on clearing the junk from around it. Hopefully soon :thumbup:


----------



## impulse byer (Mar 8, 2003)

Hell ya!

I re gapped my plugs, fixed a vac leak and that may be it for the summer unless it dies 

hope ill see this one day!


----------



## CasuallyWreckless (Aug 27, 2007)

Care to share your shifter setup? That's one part of the puzzle that aways kinda baffled meopcorn:


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

I did start working on the shifter this weekend. My plan is to use the original shifter, flip the shift rod to the back and extend it to the back to get the left-right motion to a cable. Both cables need to come off the front of the transmission, which is a bit of a pain to find a mounting location for. 







.

I was amazed at how rusty the shift rod was at the bushing, so had to find another one.









Finished the clutch plumbing. Have yet to bleed it, so don't know if it works yet.









Car made it outside for the first time in a while


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Shifter Update*

I've created the framework for the cable shifter mounts that come off the front of the transmission instead of the back. It bolts to the motor mount, a tab on the bottom of the transmission, and a bracket off the bottom of the starter. I might need one more mount over to the thermostat housing for rigidity.


























I also received all the fittings to finish the rear brake lines, adjustable proportioning valve, and fuel lines. I colour coordinated the fittings on the aluminum fuel line to be black for supply line and blue for the return lines. I was worried I might hook them up backwards.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Brakes and Floor*

I expected to spend Saturday working on the brakes, but realized that the new brake lines would be in the way of the crusty floor. The main issue was around the seat cross brace, and floor brace up to the rear control arm mount. Even my previous repairs to the seat cross brace had rusted out.


























The proportioning valve is mounted just to the left of centerline behind the driver where it should be reachable while driving. I found a seal that works well -- a rain-tray/wiper area drain hole seal? I don't know what to call it. The one that always clogs up with junk. 


















I used all steel -3AN fittings from the proportioning valve on. The flex lines are nice simple DOT approved 12" -3AN lines which are <$20 each. Sorry for the fuzzy pictures.


























Since everything else in the braking system was new, I opted for a new 22mm master cylinder too. The old one had been sitting open for 8+ years. Fortunately, I did the conversion a long time ago, so that's one less thing to do.










Bleeding took a while for both the clutch and brakes, but I have it most of the way there using a vacuum bleeder. I don't quite have enough clutch travel, but I think there is still some air in there.

Next on the list is finishing the shifter and starting on the cooling system.


----------



## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

Fantastic. Cant wait to see it in person someday.

Brendan


----------



## Arkus (Jan 20, 2010)

Just looked through the whole thread... This is an incredible build. Have you been able to take it around the block yet? 

Keep up the great work! :beer:


----------



## Kameirocco (Dec 20, 2002)

Man, i remember this thread starting! 

i'm glad i'ts still in progress! :beer::thumbup:


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

Arkus said:


> Just looked through the whole thread... This is an incredible build. Have you been able to take it around the block yet?
> 
> Keep up the great work! :beer:


No, but it's getting close! 

Bare minimum to-do list: 
Bolt shifter together
Fab new fuel lines
Coolant lines and reservoir
Seat

A dash and a door might be useful too.:sly:


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

Kameirocco said:


> Man, i remember this thread starting!
> 
> i'm glad i'ts still in progress! :beer::thumbup:


Yes, slightly depressing when I don't have time to work on it, but the progress lately feels good.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

Lord_Verminaard said:


> Fantastic. Cant wait to see it in person someday.
> 
> Brendan


I was aiming for Cincy but it seems I won't quite make it :thumbdown:
I leave for a 2 week work trip next Sat.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Fuel Pump*

Fuel pump and filter mount is finished. It clamps to the stress bar with some adapters I machined. 










































This piece clamps to the shift rod to connect the front-back cable.
















The shift rod is extended and flipped to the back with 5/8" tubing








I'll get some better pictures and video of the shifter mechanism when it's all bolted back together again.


----------



## TBerk (Oct 9, 2000)

Dude.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Functional Shifter*

The throw ended up a bit long, but will do for now. It feels pretty tight.





This video shows how the left-right linkages work. The new bushing on the transmission is too tight, so it doesn't return to 3-4 freely.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Fuel Lines*

Fuel system is back operational again with proper fuel lines. This is the first time I've used -6AN aluminum fuel line (rated to 250psi). Its REALLY easy to bend.. so much so that its very easy to collapse or kink while bending. It's also a pain to straighten out of the coil it comes in. Flares were nice and easy to make though, and AN fittings can be adapted to anything. Unfortunately I broke one of the push-on connectors at the engine side while trying to rotate it into proper alignment. The 3/8" line fit reasonable well into the rubber isolators under the floor pan, but I still need to tie down both ends of the lines with some Adel clamps (P-clamps). 
In theory, I could drive the car briefly now (no cooling system), which may happen soon to shuffle cars around.


----------



## LubsDaDubs (Apr 6, 2004)

Impressive fabrication skills, it will be nice to see the conclusion with this doing rwd burnouts


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

LubsDaDubs said:


> Impressive fabrication skills, it will be nice to see the conclusion with this doing rwd burnouts


That's how I will peel the stickers off the tires.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

After over 9 years since the first post, it finally moved under its own power. I really need to bleed the clutch though.


----------



## TBerk (Oct 9, 2000)




----------



## All Eyez on me (May 13, 2010)

This makes hungry for more! :thumbup:

Congratulations! :thumbup:


----------



## California 16v (Jul 20, 2008)

BennyB said:


> After over 9 years since the first post, it finally moved under its own power. I really need to bleed the clutch though.


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Great to see you drive this S1 finally  

I'm looking forward to seeing this in person someday


----------



## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

Really hope to see this beast in person.
Kudos to you patience and determination!


----------



## ziggirocco (Dec 13, 2010)

Cool!!


----------



## LubsDaDubs (Apr 6, 2004)

many stages of awesome....:thumbup:


----------



## Lord_Verminaard (Apr 6, 2004)

Brendan


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

I'm glad you guys are all pumped up. I should be able to get back to working on it shortly. I just got my steering bearing in from Fredy, so can put that in and start getting the interior back together.


----------



## 8716vrocco (Feb 12, 2001)

Congrats on it moving under it's own power :thumbup:

It looks great, I'm looking froward to seeing it finished up.


----------



## garasja (May 12, 2010)

Congrats 👍


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Cooling System*

Most of the cooling system is mocked up now. 










It's all apart again to bead-roll the ends of the tubes today.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*First Drive*

Quite a bit has happened in the last 2 weeks. I had a few days off before Cincy, so put the time towards getting the car driving. Here's a list of things I completed:


*Install Air dam *
*Build rear cage/closeout firewall*
panel sheeting
panel bolt downs
vertical closeouts
top side closeouts
rear removable panel
Sound deadening/thermal
*electrical*
engine firewall panel 
engine wiring tidy
ECU mount + ground
fix brake lights 
Fuel level sender
*Interior *
Remount dash
Cluster 
Re-install Carpet 
Sparco Seat mounts 
reinstall quarter windows/trim 
Rear side panels
Seat belts 
*Front suspension *
install H&R 22mm antiroll bar 
alignment
*Rear suspension* 
tighten bolts 
 M14 LH lock nuts
rear ARB
 rebuild steering column 
 *fuel level sender *
Order sender 
Fabricate mounting plate 
Weld in mounting plate
Adjust float arm
*cooling system*
coolant reservoir mount and plumbing 
main rad plumbing 
Main rad short connector tube
rad fan wiring 
engine bleed line
heater core plumbing 
*Engine *
Oil change 
Air filter mount/CAI 
tighten CV bolts 

I think I'll try and go back and and take a few pictures and discuss some of those, since I was too busy to take pics along the way.

So it all ended up with taking the first drive on Saturday afternoon at Cincy. The video isn't terribly exciting, but I did have issues with the left-right movement of the shifter. It turns out that some new bushings I put on the transmission were too tight. I also had to adjust the ride height in the rear after it scraped something going into the gas station.


----------



## echassin (Dec 28, 2005)

The engineering on this car has to be seen to be believed!

Just the suspension looks like it came off an F1 car, and the rest is every bit as good. Smooth TIG welds, beautifully bent tubes, elegant packaging in a small space, the list goes on and on. I think the plan is to get everything sorted and then give it to me, er, I meant, take it apart and pretty it all up.

I couldn't help but thinking that if this is where even a fraction of the next generation is headed, we have nothing to worry about.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

echassin said:


> The engineering on this car has to be seen to be believed!
> 
> Just the suspension looks like it came off an F1 car, and the rest is every bit as good. Smooth TIG welds, beautifully bent tubes, elegant packaging in a small space, the list goes on and on. I think the plan is to get everything sorted and then give it to me, er, I meant, take it apart and pretty it all up.
> 
> I couldn't help but thinking that if this is where even a fraction of the next generation is headed, we have nothing to worry about.


Thanks for the kudos. The tight packaging was mostly due to the CAD work I did initially. The slow pace of the project also gave me lots of time to come up with solutions before rushing into fabrication. I can definitely tell that the faster I go, the less optimized things get. Plus it gives me time to get the proper raw materials, rather than dig through what I have on-hand.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Engine Panels*

Before I get to the carpet install, I should talk about the engine panels. For a refresher.. there are 3 main panels that are bolted from the side on one end, so that they can pivot. The other end has machined aluminum recesses welded in for socket cap bolts to hold down vertically. The idea is that the panels can take some of the stress from the suspension and engine forces acting back there and pass it up the the floor pan. Also keeps everything square back there. I made these frames a while ago, but hadn't finished them so I could still poke around without removing them. Finishing them off required machining those recesses from 3/4" aluminum bar stock, with special attention to bevel the ends so that the weld sits flush.










On the frame side, I used clip-on M8 nuts which have a bit of x-y play to allow them to self-align when bolting the panels down

Predrilled the aluminum sheeting and held in place with 1/8" clecos. This allows the skin to be removed for bonding. In this case, I used urethane adhesive. I was on-the-fence about epoxy vs urethane. Temps are a bit high for urethane, but it's also more flexible, contributes to sound isolation, and is less likely to delaminate. I would have needed many more rivets for epoxy.










removed the skin, cleaned with acetone, and applied small beads of urethane










finished panels installed:










The final panel at the back uses C-channel on either side to slide onto the existing scirocco trunk sides. L-channel at the front overlaps onto the rear main panel, and a rotated square channel at the back matches the angle of the existing trunk sides.










I finished it off with a weatherstrip seal (MW78348 from Summit) across the hatch that seals across the back face of the slide-out panel. I also cut the rear hatch seal to only go down as far at that cross seal. I'm trying to promote airflow out of the engine bay, so didn't want the lower section of hatch seal to prevent that.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)




----------



## Neptuno (Jul 16, 2003)

Ben it sound really smooth and the noise levels seem less than at Cincy. Did you close in the firewall?

Tony. 

Sent from the land of fly eagles fly!


----------



## echassin (Dec 28, 2005)

Fantastic!


----------



## All Eyez on me (May 13, 2010)

Niiiiiice!!!! Love the sound! :thumbup:


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

Neptuno said:


> Ben it sound really smooth and the noise levels seem less than at Cincy. Did you close in the firewall?


Yes! Although not perfectly sealed, the addition of the carpet on top of the dynamat made a big difference.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Fuel Pump Surge Tank*

I have a couple updates backlogged, so I'll start with the fuel pump. It sounded like it was cavitating, even though it was mounted in line with the bottom of the tank and with very little restriction -- just a screen filter in front of it and -8AN supply lines. Decided that a surge tank would get me a bit more useable capacity anyways (2L) and also keeps the fuel pump cooler being partially immersed in the fuel. There's a reasonably cheap surge tank on amazon/ebay ($60) specifically for the Bosch 044 pump. Summit also has a mesh pickup filter for $10, but it uses an o-ring AN10 fitting. The Bosch 044 specific pickup filters are over $40!










To keep the flow rates up meant making sure there are no hard 90 corners in the plumbing. So I used an external check valve rather than the banjo style on top of the pump

The transfer pump to the surge tank is a Holley Mighty-Mite. It's a diaphragm style pump so much more resistant to debris from the tank than an 044 pump.


















There a plate for the transfer pump and high-pressure filter to mount to, so I didn't have to weld anything onto the tank. The whole thing sits on 3 rubber isolators to keep the noise down. I can still hear the transfer pump at idle though--it's a bit louder than I expected. Might need more isolation.










Pickup screen adapter is the correct length to put it right at the bottom of the surge tank:



















Alas, when I drove it I still get an inconsistent part throttle response while cruising so it wasn't the pump cavitating. Possibly something electrical thats shorting, or a bad MAF or O2. Still need to diagnose. I have the whole rear subframe out right now to reinforce some bent parts and install redesigned upper control arms. More on that in the next update.

Most of you already know I had this car featured on Jalopnik build-of-the-week! It mainly references this build thread for info, so this completes the circle:
https://jalopnik.com/this-guy-fixed-his-volkswagen-scirocco-by-making-it-a-m-1826642178


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Suspension Rework*

*Bent*

So once I started pulling things apart, it became apparent that more than just the upper control arms were bending. The subframe was bent, plus the box frame where the subframe bolts in. 










The support tube and brace plate had both buckled










*Upper Control Arms*

So the new pieces are designed to take a 4G bump load case, as well as simultaneous 2G bump+2G cornering+2G braking. There is also more clearance to the frame, which allows for another 35mm of rebound travel. I had to outsource and get the main sections laser cut, since the waterjet at work has been tied up all summer. 










I set up a makeshift press brake to bend the 3/16" steel main pieces to the correct radius










Completed arm before painting:










*Frame*

I added some extra reinforcement to the frame with bosses to bolt in the subframe (grey primer part), plus a few extra plates here and there to finish things up. The motor mount also needed somewhere to bolt in the lateral support.


















*Front Engine Mount*

Some of that subframe stress is likely coming from the lower engine mount. I never really completed the subframe since it was supposed to have additional braces rearwards to take the engine load. Rather than add those (which is difficult with the location of the exhaust) the better option is to load the engine rotation forces into the floor pan. I reused a dogbone mount bushing but used a spherical on the engine side. Not many mount point options on the front. It's currently single shear until I can make another bracket to load into a few more bolts.


















*Engine Compartment Depressurizing *

The headliner is still coming down on my head at speed, so the engine bay needs a way to exhaust out the back into the negative pressure area behind the car. I started by cutting out this section either side of the license plate. Eventually I'd like to relocate the plate and exit the exhaust up there (supercar style). Marked it out, drilled the corners for a radius and then plasma cut. Finished with the angle grinder for now. Bought some #8 stainless mesh screen to cover it, but haven't made those pieces yet.


















Unfortunately it looks kind of odd. Hopefully the mesh fixes that. It's also apparent that the extra travel has the car in offroad mode, since I haven't reset the spring perches.










*Mass*

I've been a bit nervous about how much the whole conversion weighs. Really hoping it's under 2200lb! 
I have a set of digital scales for my kart (Princess Auto special $25 each) but they're load limited to 200kg (440lb). Using 2 per wheel in parallel got around that, 1 axle at a time. This was measuring the front.










Total came to 969 kg (2130lb) curb weight (empty) with a half tank of fuel. Lighter than I expected. 
Front/Rear distribution of 45.5% was better than the 42% I predicted too. 

Short test drive was successful, with no clunks or bent parts. Engine seems to be sorted out now, after replacing the MAF.
Next thing is to get spring tuning sorted out. With the 375lb/in springs that came with the coilovers, it's at a ride frequency of about 2.5Hz in the rear. I'm aiming for 1.6 Hz, which would require 240lb/in springs. I have a set of 275 lb/in but they're 2.25" instead of 60mm inner diameter on the Koni yellow coilovers. Since 2.25" is more common, I'll see if I can modify the perches and the tender spring spacer.


----------



## echassin (Dec 28, 2005)

Some of the jargon is beyond my knowledge base which limits my usefulness here, I just want to restate how impressed I am with this car :thumbup:


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

echassin said:


> Some of the jargon is beyond my knowledge base which limits my usefulness here, I just want to restate how impressed I am with this car :thumbup:


Thanks! And no complex jargon in this video. Just tire smoke.

[video]https://www.facebook.com/tri.gaffney/videos/10215585002525475/[/video]


----------



## Drehkraft (Mar 22, 2001)

The proof is in the pudding!


----------



## Drehkraft (Mar 22, 2001)




----------



## verboten1 (Jun 30, 2001)

That was a fun day Saturday! The car looked and sounded great.









Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Cincy Prep*

I guess this is more than Cincy prep since I haven't updated in a while.

*Bilstein Gp.N rebuild:*

These were a bit beat-up so needed some refreshing before going on the car. Old style round-top strut mounts with poly inserts and new upper spring perches to work with 2.25". There are aggressive! the stroke is at least 2" shorter than a standard damper (I wrote it down somewhere).




























*Reinforce lower control arms:*

I've always meant to add this bracing to help with toe-compliance under load










*Trans rebuild:*

There was too much inside rear wheelspin at the track, so the Quaife diff needed to go in. It has always been in the plans--quietly sitting on the shelf since 2009. While the trans was open, the shift forks were replaced with steel versions and painted the case to clean up the engine bay. Also putting in a Spec aluminum flywheel and Stage 2 clutch.




























*Cams and Chains:*

I was planning to use the cams in my Audi TT, but I ended up selling it. So they end up in the Scirocco now. Techtonics Tuning 260/264. Also had the valve cover powdercoated and painting the side covers.



















It will be tight to get it together and tested in time for Cincy, but it's good to have a deadline.


----------



## scirocco*joe (Feb 23, 2002)

Do you have a link for the inserts for the rebuildable upper strut mounts? I have the mounts in hand, but no inserts.

Thanks!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

Mine came with the poly already installed, but I found these for you:

https://www.eurosportacc.com/collections/mk1/products/euro-sport-poly-front-strut-bushing-kit-vw-mk1-rabbit-1975-1976


----------



## ydrogs (Aug 6, 2005)

scirocco*joe said:


> Do you have a link for the inserts for the rebuildable upper strut mounts? I have the mounts in hand, but no inserts.
> 
> Thanks!


Joe, you might want to pour over this old thread before buying the Prothane bushings. Fox or 944 bushings work also. Also has a complete list of parts and their numbers if you are missing anything.

https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4265114-Early-style-strut-mount-rebuild-thread


----------



## scirocco*joe (Feb 23, 2002)

ydrogs said:


> Joe, you might want to pour over this old thread before buying the Prothane bushings. Fox or 944 bushings work also. Also has a complete list of parts and their numbers if you are missing anything.
> 
> https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4265114-Early-style-strut-mount-rebuild-thread


Thanks, Gordy!


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

*Cincy 2019*

The last 2 weeks of thrashing paid off and I made it the 500miles to Cincy and back! Here are some of the things I finished up in the process:

Attempted to glue the vent windows with rear-view mirror adhesive. It didn't stick.









*Oil Sump*
Installed a Mk5 R32 oil pan and oil pump which is about 1" shorter. It's also baffled much more than the regular 2.8 sump:









this is the factory sump, and a eurowise steel shortened pan









*Reassembly*



























*Heater Controls*
The reasonably cheap bypass valve that I used to maintain head flow while shut off was originally vacuum actuated. I added a bracket and eliminated the diaphragm to drive it from the control cable:









*Headlights*
I decided to try out the yellow highbeams from France that I had on the shelf.









*Gauges*
Spent most of Memorial Day weekend cleaning up wiring but also installed an Innovative LC-1 and wideband O2 gauge into a panel 3D printed to fit in place of the ashtray.









Also got the tach working with a Tach-Adapt to drive the high-voltage impulse that simulates a coil but also changes the ratio. Played with the dip-switches and found a 4:1 ratio. The only issue is that in a decel fuel cut, it will eventually cut the spark as well and the tach goes to zero. Works well otherwise.
Inverted the oil pressure light with a normally-closed relay so it's not on all the time. Also wired up the OBD2 port to connect under the dash.



















More things that I'll have to get pics for:
-added a baffled tip to reduce noise. was still quite loud
-reinforced where the toe links attach to the subframe
-installed 200lb/in springs in the front to balance the suspension. Ride quality was much improved!
-replaced the cracked grille and a broken side marker light

Lots to talk about the Cincy trip as well, will have to save that for another post.


----------



## echassin (Dec 28, 2005)

Ben took me for a spin (literally) in this thing and the best way I can describe it is well, um, er, uh, well...

...here's the best I can do:

It's _fast_
It's _loud_, and the noise comes from _behind_
It handles _perfectly_

The closest thing I can think of as an analogy is that car in Road Warriors.

Perfect.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

https://www.vwvortex.com/news/forum-fridays/forum-friday-mid-engine-vr6-rwd-s1-rocco/


----------



## shftat6 (Oct 9, 2000)

There is so much win here!! Incredible work and engineering!!!! :thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> https://www.vwvortex.com/news/forum-fridays/forum-friday-mid-engine-vr6-rwd-s1-rocco/


Thanks for the cool article!

Here's a new video of the suspension in action that I filmed at lunch.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)




----------



## echassin (Dec 28, 2005)

Best looking a$$ ever


----------



## tburie. (Apr 9, 2019)

Is this the car with the electric motor in the front as well? I just skimmed through the thread and didn't see anything about it. But this car looks identical to the mid engine scirocco I had seen at a car show that had an electric motor in the front as well.


----------



## BennyB (Mar 27, 2000)

tburie. said:


> Is this the car with the electric motor in the front as well? I just skimmed through the thread and didn't see anything about it. But this car looks identical to the mid engine scirocco I had seen at a car show that had an electric motor in the front as well.


yes same car, but my updates have been on instagram @81VR6
Not much to update lately, I'm waiting for some electronics to come in for the battery controller.


----------

