# MSnE V1 2.2 going lean at elevation



## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

*MSnE-1 V2.2 going lean at elevation*

I have had this problem for a while now but usually forget about is since I don't go to the mountains very often. I am running MSnE-1 V2.2 on speed density. I have selected the barometric correction to on but that doesn't solve the problem. Is there something else that needs to be selected or is this something I have to live with while running speed density?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

If you restart at altitude does it fix the issue? If so you need a second map sensor to run realtime.


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

need_a_VR6 said:


> If you restart at altitude does it fix the issue? If so you need a second map sensor to run realtime.


 It doesn't. It stays lean as long as I'm at elevation.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

What is your controller authority set at and the step size?


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

ps2375 said:


> What is your controller authority set at and the step size?


 I'm not sure off hand. Where do I look to find that stuff?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Basic Settings> Exhaust Gas Settings


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

My controller authority is set to 3 and my step size is 1.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

bump authority to 10-20 

What did you use to tune it? Do you have a registered copy of Tuner Studio? How good is your map and from what to what elevation are you going?


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

ps2375 said:


> bump authority to 10-20
> 
> What did you use to tune it? Do you have a registered copy of Tuner Studio? How good is your map and from what to what elevation are you going?


 So bump it up to 15? What does this feature do? 

I used megatune to tune it. I can't get tuner studio to open up for me. It always says no communication port found or something along those lines.  

My map is pretty good. Been using it for years now and only have issues when ascending in altitude. 

I have gone up to around 7000 feet but it was crazy lean.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Open the Exhaust Gas Settings box and press F1. There is some explanation, or read that section of the MegaManual. 

Basically gives the controller authority to adjust fueling to reach the target AFR. 

And where in NC is there 7000 ft mountains?:screwy:


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

ps2375 said:


> Open the Exhaust Gas Settings box and press F1. There is some explanation, or read that section of the MegaManual.
> 
> Basically gives the controller authority to adjust fueling to reach the target AFR.
> 
> And where in NC is there 7000 ft mountains?:screwy:


 OK will do. 

I never said the mountains were in NC.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

True, you didn't. Is there any drive-able that are that tall in the east?


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

ps2375 said:


> True, you didn't. Is there any drive-able that are that tall in the east?


 Well I did go on the mountain cruise at SoWo and it started acting up which reminded me of this old problem. 

Also, I hit F1 with the window open but it didn't work. I then tried searching the megamanual and I found it talking about the EGO authority. Is that the same thing as controller authority?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

yes.


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

OK I'll give it a shot. 

I'm curious though why the barometric correction doesn't fix this issue.


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## -RalleyTuned- (Nov 17, 2008)

I saw the same issue when I was tuning my gti on the first road trip. Even with the baro correction on it would lean out when getting up high in mountains. I never had any pinging or detonation that was audible, but it always worried me. 

Having a wideband setup through the ecu should help, having the control authority set so low doesn't give it the range to adjust when it needs such a large change to retain your target AFR.


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## Dubrunner (Nov 8, 2000)

Wow, I just posted about this with mine as well, Mike! Guess I'll see what happens. I actually tried the same things you did, but didn't make much change. Let us know if you got that working or not! 

Hope things are well, by the way!


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

Dubrunner said:


> Wow, I just posted about this with mine as well, Mike! Guess I'll see what happens. I actually tried the same things you did, but didn't make much change. Let us know if you got that working or not!
> 
> Hope things are well, by the way!


I haven't had the chance to go up any mountains since I posted this but I will report back if this helped with the issue. :thumbup:


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

frechem said:


> I'm curious though why the barometric correction doesn't fix this issue.


Unless you have a second map sensor, baro correction is only checked and factored in at power-up, like when you first start the car. So, if you drive up into the mountains and have the problem, the MS will not baro correct, but if you shut the car off and restart it, the MS should have some Baro correction.

I live at 2700 ft and have gone as high as 6-7k ft and haven't noticed any problems, but I also don't have the display hooked up to my wideband either, but I do have controller authority set somewhere around 10-20.


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

ps2375 said:


> Unless you have a second map sensor, baro correction is only checked and factored in at power-up, like when you first start the car. So, if you drive up into the mountains and have the problem, the MS will not baro correct, but if you shut the car off and restart it, the MS should have some Baro correction.
> 
> I live at 2700 ft and have gone as high as 6-7k ft and haven't noticed any problems, but I also don't have the display hooked up to my wideband either, but I do have controller authority set somewhere around 10-20.


Good to know. Thanks. :beer:


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## Dubrunner (Nov 8, 2000)

ps2375 said:


> Unless you have a second map sensor, baro correction is only checked and factored in at power-up, like when you first start the car. So, if you drive up into the mountains and have the problem, the MS will not baro correct, but if you shut the car off and restart it, the MS should have some Baro correction.
> 
> I live at 2700 ft and have gone as high as 6-7k ft and haven't noticed any problems, but I also don't have the display hooked up to my wideband either, but I do have controller authority set somewhere around 10-20.


I had mine set at 

Step Controller: 2
Controller Authority: 12

mine sputtered, choked and bucked when I tried to push the gas past halfway, like I wan't getting enough fuel (as the AFR gauge was showing) - similar to what you'd feel with a clogged fuel filter (which I did change). The only thing I can think of is the "tune" itself or maybe spark/timing is off enough to make elevation a factor. 

Both times this happened, I would shut the car off so the MS could correct, but each time, there was no change. The last time I attempted, I did take data log so that I could have someone look at it. Definitely let me know if that solves it, Mike!


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Dubrunner said:


> I had mine set at
> 
> Step Controller: 2
> Controller Authority: 12
> ...


With ITB's are you running speed/density or alpha/n?


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

There must be some other solution to this rather than "just switch it over to Alpha-N".  

However, I don't mind upgrading to the best and latest and greatest MS but now that I moved to NC I don't know anyone that could give me a hand installing and tuning. 

It's been so long since I originally installed my MS that I don't really remember much and I would hate to take it out and get stuck somehow and be SOL.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Get some logs of how it acts at lower altitude and I can tell you if you should be on Alpha-N or not. I have had very limited success running ITB'd cars on MAP even when mild there are compromises that altitude would only make worse.


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Get some logs of how it acts at lower altitude and I can tell you if you should be on Alpha-N or not. I have had very limited success running ITB'd cars on MAP even when mild there are compromises that altitude would only make worse.


 OK will do. I'll take the car out this weekend. How long should I log for? 

Also, here is my most recent MSQ


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Decent amount 5-10min warm.


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

So what does everyone think of my MSQ?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

I might later, I deleted the "project" to allow me to load a HR msq.


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

Still no feedback about my MSQ? 

Well I did go out this weekend and try to do some data-logging but for some reason I only got a minute or so recorded. I'll go out tomorrow after work and try again. 

In the mean time here is a noisy video of my run. 

 

Enjoy.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Nothing odd in the msq offhand other then the main fuel table looked very lean/low just off idle and until pretty high load/rpm. The 15.x afr targets in the middle of the table seemed a little odd as well. Datalog vs that msq might make some sense.


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Nothing odd in the msq offhand other then the main fuel table looked very lean/low just off idle and until pretty high load/rpm. The 15.x afr targets in the middle of the table seemed a little odd as well. Datalog vs that msq might make some sense.


 OK thanks for the feedback. 

Here are what the tables used to look like before I had -RalleyTuned- try and help me out with the altitude issue a while back.


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

I was able to go out and do a log today. Let me know what you think.


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## Dubrunner (Nov 8, 2000)

Wow, glad to see you might be making some progress! I went out today and having set EGO Step and Authority, with the Target AFR table now set, did not make much difference.


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

Dubrunner said:


> Wow, glad to see you might be making some progress! I went out today and having set EGO Step and Authority, with the Target AFR table now set, did not make much difference.


 No progress here. I haven't had enough feedback to make any changes.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Here is my feedback looking at the logs: 

You have no MAP range to speak of, which is common on ITBs. Make your lower kpa bin ~45-50 and spread the load bins out a ton more over that range. All of your low kpa should be handled by overrun fuel cut so you'll have to set that up. I would also change your afr targets a bit and get rid of anything leaner than 14.7:1 for now, the old AFR table with a tweaked MAP range would work better.


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Here is my feedback looking at the logs:
> 
> You have no MAP range to speak of, which is common on ITBs. Make your lower kpa bin ~45-50 and spread the load bins out a ton more over that range. All of your low kpa should be handled by overrun fuel cut so you'll have to set that up. I would also change your afr targets a bit and get rid of anything leaner than 14.7:1 for now, the old AFR table with a tweaked MAP range would work better.


 OK great, thanks for the advice! 

Would it be possible to have you tweak my tables and MSQ to what you you were thinking? :heart: 

You have a lot more knowledge and experience in this area than I do.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Perhaps, email me at [email protected]


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