# '93 Eurovan engine dies for no reason



## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Hey Eurovan Lovers:wave:

I've got an August '92 production automatic trans Eurovan GL that will die, either just going down the road or sitting in traffic. It shuts off abruptly, like someone's turned off the key. It restarts immediately. 

It usually won't stay "broke down" long enough to do much of any testing, but on 2 occations, I've found no spark from the coil, eventhough position 15 on the coil pack was getting 12v. I replaced the coil with a new unit, but the problem continues.

Based on some reading online tonight, it looks like relay #30 in position #3 powers the ECU/ECM and could have a broken solder joint. I'll replace it with a spare one that I probably have, and inspect the original one for a failed solder joint. I had a spare fuel pump relay and popped that in tonight, but haven't driven on it yet.

I was thinking that it could be the ignition switch, but the one time I was able to get a meter on position 15, I had battery voltage during cranking.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

With the ECU power supply relay, and the fuel pump relay replaced with used versions, it fired up this morning, ran an errand, and then let it sit and run in the driveway with the A/C running and headlights on for 3hrs. Ran perfect.

Jumped in it and started running local errands, again, perfect running and no problem on hot-soak restarts.

At about hour #4 of running, including a 26mi round trip on the highway, it simply shut off while waiting at a traffic light. It was an instant shut down, just like someone had turned the key off. It immediately fired right back up on the first attempt, with little more than a blip of the key.:banghead:

Since I don't know the true condition of the 2 relays, I'm going to order new replacements before I start on a wild goose chase.

Anyone have some info to add?


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

I don't have a solution but I'll share a similar experience.

I have a '93 manual-transmission one that dies mostly because it fails to maintain idle. Sometimes the RPMs dip below idle and recover, other times no recovery and stumbles to a stall, other times stalls very fast (RPMs drop very fast as if key turned off).

The pattern(s):

1. More likely to stall when cold-ish vs. hot (but if A/C is on the added load is likely to kill it hot while when hot and no A/C it rarely stalls).

2. More likely for RPMs to dip but recover or dip and stall when I have been coasting in gear with throttle closed (e.g.: going down a long hill w/o touching the gas or decelerating for a while w/o touching gas).

3. If I leave my house cold and go uphill, not likely to stall at the next few stop signs. If I leave my house cold and go downhill (so a lot of closed-throttle coasting in gear), very likely to stall at the new few stop signs.

4. Almost guaranteed to NOT stall if I am using the throttle and then push in clutch (e.g.: there was a demand for fuel).

5. Can pop clutch to start it up again, but if you push in clutch again it is very likely to stall again.

6. Can use key to restart it and it will start and idle no problem 100% of the time.

The last part is the kicker. Restarting with the key I believe causes the cold-start injector to spritz some extra fuel in (because it will start up and go to about 1100rpm for a few seconds and then settle to its usual 800 or so, telling me it had some extra fuel).

So my theory is that it's a fuel delivery problem. Something on deceleration is cutting the fuel supply (probably normal with most FI engines) and fuel pressure probably drops over time, but if the clutch is pushed in it will not have the minimum fuel to idle and so it stalls.

In addition I noticed a few times (but not all the time) on popping the clutch, the (aftermarket) radio itself cut off and turned off again when the car restarted. This really confuses me, as that it indicates an electrical issue (although not necessarily ignition...could be electrical-but-fuel such as the fuel pump relay or something else shorting out). And the radio cutting out isn't a radio problem...I recall this starting/stalling issue with the factory radio in place too so I'm not calling the radio a cause but more of a symptom.

So my suspicion is a fuel pump relay or maybe even the ECM relay where something shuts down when fuel isn't needed much and it fails to fire up again when fuel is needed to idle.

And while all this is happening, like if I've been decelerating in gear a while such that I know it would stall if the clutch is pushed in, if I just gas it the car accelerates fine, so I think it is responding to an open throttle OK but just failing to idle with a closed throttle. Hence I am focusing on fuel delivery and something electrical not turning it back on.

I have replaced all the little vacuum hoses under the hood and still the issue persists so unless it's one of the larger hoses, etc., that's not it. Also, when it does idle, it idles beautifully and steady and correctly...a vaccuum leak would more likely cause erratic idle.

So, no solution but that's my hunch (control of fuel delivery). I just haven't bothered to solve it yet. Oh any my coil is pretty new too (less than 2 years old) so I'm ruling that out.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

*We interrupt this program to bring you the following*

If I was working on your van, I'd do an induction service with the 3 pack BG44K kit (ebay is your cheapest source) and clean the ISV/ICV at the same time. I'd follow that up with a drive somewhere hilly, where I could run the throttle at, or close to, wide open, with some hill climbing load (note that I'm not saying that I'd be running down the road at 100mph, nor am I saying I'd be holding the engine at 5,000rpm), say, 3rd or 4th gear at about 30-50mph, in order to really open the injectors and get some cleaner through them. 

I'd follow this service and susequent tank of fuel containing one of the cans of BG products, with a tank of fuel containing a can of Seafoam.

On a side note, if you're running anything other factory OEM ignition parts, including those cheap Bosch Platinum plugs, you're going to have driveability issues.

A comment about the vacuum lines. There is a long 3mm cloth braided vacuum line that runs from the T near the fuel pressure regulator, over to the ECU/ECM, where it plugs into a fitting on the ECU/ECM. Make sure you replace this line. You may also want to check for the ability to hold vacuum, because there is probably a short piece of rubber hose inside the ECU/ECM that spans from the fitting, to the manifold pressure sensor. Real common for this short hose to fail on the TDi's that use the same set up.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program:thumbup:


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

austinado16 said:


> On a side note, if you're running anything other factory OEM ignition parts, including those cheap Bosch Platinum plugs, you're going to have driveability issues.


Nobody likes those plugs yet they've been around for at least 25 years. I wonder why they still make them?

I actually am running them now (the shop that replaced my plugs put them in...I wouldn't have chose them myself). Although IIRC I did have this stalling problem before those plugs went in (although my memory might be fuzzy).



austinado16 said:


> You may also want to check for the ability to hold vacuum, because there is probably a short piece of rubber hose inside the ECU/ECM that spans from the fitting, to the manifold pressure sensor. Real common for this short hose to fail on the TDi's that use the same set up.


Hmmm...I have replaced the long line but not the internal one (if it exists). How hard is it to open the ECM?


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

First step, get those Bosch Platinums to a trash can where they belong. Even when I was in Bosch Fuel Injection Training School back in the early 90's, the Bosch Instructors were telling us not to put them in anything unless we wanted to start chasing driveability issues.

Just put in a nice set of NGK's and you'll never have a problem.

When we picked this van up, it had a new set of Denso's, but all the other parts were OEM Bosch. When I finished the engine work, I left the Denso's in, because they were "new" with maybe a couple thousand on them. They went 10,000mi before they failed. They started leaking compression around the base where the porcelain center seals against the metal "nut." The van ran so bad, I seriously thought it had either eaten a piston or burned the valves......so I started my diagnostics with a compression test. I never start diagnostics with a compression test, if that gives you any idea of how bad this thing ran. Well, in taking out the plugs I noticed this weird burn stain on the porcelain....D'oh.

New set of NGK's and it was fixed.

The end of the ECU is screwed to the ECU's "box" with a few torx bit screws. Then the end with circuit board attached, will just slide out of the box. If it's got a hose inside, you'll see it right there, running from the fitting in the end, an inch or 2 straight in to the pressure sensor.

Got a report on Saturday that the Van had been running fine and hadn't shut down on them, so I guess the relay's fixed it. The new relays will be here this morning and I'll pop them in......and hopefully that will close the case.


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## Gruppe B (Nov 29, 2002)

I own a 1992 gas auto Eurovan and was experiencing the exact same problem, occational shut off at idle as if someone turned off the key. 

Finally the thing died while driving and wouldn't restart. Turned out to be the fuel pump.
Changed the filter first but didn't fix anything. Ripped out the in tank pump and replaced, started right away. No stalling issues since.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Thanks for weighing in. I was initially thinking fuel pump too, but it was shutting off so instantaneously, that steered toward the ignition side of things.

As it stands right now, the van has been trouble free since I replaced the fuel pump and power supply relays. He's says it's died a couple times immediately following a cold start, but restarts instantly and has had no other issues.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

austinado16 said:


> As it stands right now, the van has been trouble free since I replaced the fuel pump and power supply relays.


Something I've been thinking of doing with mine as well, even as just some insurance against a breakdown if one of the relays fails altogether.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Wouldn't hurt to carry a spare of each since the pair is under $20. There's another relay that sits on top of the main board, about 1 or 2 in from the right (as you face the board) that gets super hot during running. That's another on my list to replace. I've been too lazy to crack open the Bentley and see what it does.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Thought I'd provide an update.

The problem is still not cured. It's still so intermittent that it's nearly impossible to duplicate, and if/when it does shut down, it almost always restarts instantly. On one occation a few weeks ago, it died on them in traffic and wouldn't restart for a couple minutes worth of attempts, then fired up, ran fine and has been fine since.

I'm almost ready to put a computer in it, and would, if I had a spare. They're $200+ on ebay though, so I'm not ready to spend that on a guess.


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## miguel indurain (Jun 13, 1999)

Did you check the Hall sender/distributor? That suggestion comes up pretty frequently, too. It happened to our 9/92 prod EV about 10 yrs ago, and that's what ours ended up being. Similar symptoms to yours.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Yeah, I put in a good used distributor and it did the exact same thing. That was one of the first things I swapped out.

Thanks for the suggestion though.:thumbup:


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## slvr32 (Oct 3, 2004)

Wow, lots of creative guesses, but how about an actual scan to check for DTCs?

I had a 93 Eurovan with an idle problem, and the culprit was the 'idle regulator' (or something to that effect...), which happened to be a very specific part, ~ $200 repair, IIRC?


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Oh sure, now you want me to act like a real tech

Looks like it's finally gotten worse to the point it'll barely run. It'll be showing up on a hook, sometime tomorrow. Maybe I'll finally get to the bottom of this.

The current condition is that it'll start and run, but the engine has to be kept above 2,000rpm or it just dies.

Can hardly wait....:sly:


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## slvr32 (Oct 3, 2004)

austinado16 said:


> Oh sure, now you want me to act like a real tech
> 
> Looks like it's finally gotten worse to the point it'll barely run. It'll be showing up on a hook, sometime tomorrow. Maybe I'll finally get to the bottom of this.
> 
> ...


In the future, you could probably find another forum user with a VAG-COM cable to do a scan for you, and at least see if you have obvious DTCs with known causes/solutions via the forums @ ross-tech.com. 

I have a VAG-COM cable, and would be happy to help you with a ($FREE) scan, but it looks like you're in Central CA, and I'm in SoCal, in the Inland Empire.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

I actually have VAG-COM, but as yet haven't scanned for codes because the CEL isn't illuminated. I will scan it today though......and report back.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

No engine ECU codes. 

Transmission ECU is showing
- 00529 Engine Speed Signal Missing 
35-10 Intermittent

-00545 Engine-Transmission Electric Connection 
31-10 Open or short to ground Intermittent


But wait, what's that clinking noise from the new Bosal exhaust system and new cat, all of which have 9,000mi on them. Oh.....just the f-ing cat has grenaded and sent itself downstream into the middle muffler.

And more....right now it goes from running fine, to a super lean condition with popping in the intake, and won't start without a bunch of throttle, and then runs like the air boot has a giant hole in it. Then might go right back to running normal for a moment or 3. 

Sprayed carb cleaner around the air intake boot at the throttle body, and the valve cover breather, moved the boot around while running, moved the wiring......stumbles and dies.

So it appears the wiring to the MAF or the Thottle Position Switch has something going on. I don't see anything right off, and with the way the cat all busted up and into the middle muffler, I could be battling the blockage of the exhaust.

First thing in the morning it's going to the exhaust shop that welded in their generic cat and I'll let them deal with the mess it made. Once the exhaust is fixed, I'll continue.

Please stand byopcorn:


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

austinado16 said:


> So it appears the wiring to the MAF or the Thottle Position Switch has something going on.


Hmmm no MAF on these (that I know of). I believe they're MAPs (and in the ECU...follow the vacuum hose going to the ECU). However there is an intake air temperature sensor in that rubbery boot and that also can come into play with this.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Riiiiiight.....show's you what I still don't know about EV's.

Yes, it's a "thermister" there in the intake boot, and yes, the ECU does have the pressure sensor inside. In fact, I replaced that long vacuum hose that feeds the ECU and while I was there, made sure the MAP inside the ECU held a vacuum. On the TDi's, it's not uncommon for that short piece of hose inside the ECU to fail, and then it's a CEL nightmare that looks like the ECU is bad.

So here's what I've found:

-The shielded wire to the OXS Sensor had a big crack/break in it, up near the intake planum. I cut that bad section out, but even with it cut out, so the computer was getting now OXS input, the engine wouldn't run for more than a minute or two before it developed a crazy stumbling misfire, died and would barely restart, if at all. All sorts of fuel pressure and flow, so that narrowed it down to 2 things.....fuel at the injectors, or spark.

-Well, I decide to pursue spark since when this all started barely 2 months ago, the first thing I did, based on the symptoms, was throw a new coil at it. It was a Meyle version, and I know better than to use their crap, but I thought, seriously, how bad could it be. So step 1 was to plug the old coil back in. The engine immediately fired up and ran beautiful. I plugged the fuel injection harness connectors back into the air temp, and throttle switches, and it ran even better. I left it run while I repaired the OXS wires, and it continued to run perfectly after I plugged the repaired OXS harness back into the OXS.

Once again, it appears to be fixed. It's over sunning itself at the exhaust shop right now, waiting for a new cat, and it'll probably get both mufflers too if they can't get the pieces of the cat out of them. That's fine. It's a brand new Bosal system, and I've hated it since about a month after installing it. It's really buzzy, especially when you wind up this great Audi 5 cylinder. Not cool.

I'll update more as I know more.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Got it back from the exhaust shop. The cat had the center of the ceramic core burned completely out of it. The middle muffler was so packed with the core material that they had to replace it. 

It's still running fine.

In the morning I'm going to take it to a buddy's shop and put it on his 5 gas analyzer. I want to take a reading ahead of the cat to see if the injection is over fueling, which is what destroyed this current cat in just 9,000mi.

Here's a shot of that broken OXS wire:


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## Gruppe B (Nov 29, 2002)

Update on my Eurovan that was stalling in the same manner.
I had replaced
-rotor
-cap
-plugs
-relays
-fuel pump (thought I had fixed it with this)

One week later it stalled while driving again and this time would not restart.

Brought it in to the dealer and they found that the Hall Effect Sender (inside distributer) had failed.
After swapping it out and redoing the timing the Eurovan was back on the road


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Glad you got fixed!:thumbup:

Amazingly, I'm still battling this one!

After driving it all over, both freeway, and around town.......for hours, I returned it to the guy. We didn't get a mile from his house on the way to bring me back home, when it shut down. Coasted to the shoulder, 3 or 4 starting attempts and it fired right up, ran fine, and has been fine since as far as I know.:banghead:

The only thing he does different when driving it, as compared to me driving it, is he uses the wheel chair lift to load his wife (which he did prior to giving me a ride home and them going on to her appointments). I don't see how this could have any affect. The lift has a large battery cable hooked to the positive battery terminal, going into a large resetting circuit breaker and then that cable goes across the upper firewall area, enters the passenger compartment via the boot for the main harness. Then it goes down under the passenger door step area and to the hydraulic pump motor on the Braun lift.

I have swapped complete distributors, thinking it could be the hall effect sender, and the condition remains unchanged. Not that that is the ultimate indicator, but still, I wouldn't expect 2 to be bad. I think I've only seen a couple fail in 30 years of playing with VW/Audi stuff.....and usually is wasn't the sender, it was the plastic housing that holds the electrical connector to the side of the distributor.

One thing that's weird about when this thing shuts down. One or more of the relays start fluttering, almost buzzing, rapidly. Happens so fast that even with the relay panel cover removed, it's hard to get your hand on the exact one that's become noisey.

When yours was shutting down, were you getting noise from any relays?


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## Gruppe B (Nov 29, 2002)

> When yours was shutting down, were you getting noise from any relays?


 No buzzing whatsoever from the relays. The van's engine would just die as if someone turned off the key. 

Regarding the Hall Effect Sender on the Eurovans, when I first started having stall issues it would only kill the engine but I could start it again. This condition continued until one day it wouldn't restart at all. 
I brought a spare distributer from my parts van to the dealer and it too had a bad Hall Effect Sensor. In Canada the part is NLA from the dealership and they asked if I could find a used spare. 

I read that if the tach does not show any movement when you are starting the engine it may be a falty Hall Effect Sender. I never checked this with my van when I had the problem.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Gruppe B said:


> I read that if the tach does not show any movement when you are starting the engine it may be a falty Hall Effect Sender. I never checked this with my van when I had the problem.


 Generally yeah if when you're cranking the engine the tach doesn't even budge, it's likely to be an ignition problem rather than fuel.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Thanks for that info.

Just went over to look at the wiring for the lift....it's not the cause. But my buddy had this little tid-bit.....he bent the ignition key the other day trying to get into the trunk (think: bull-in-china-shop), made a half-ass attempt to straighten it, and after that, the van ran even worse.

So with that in mind, I'm heading over to the dealer to pick up an ignition switch. I was blaming the ignition switch early-on in this, but could never jiggle or move the key in a way that duplicated the problem. But, a failed contact in the switch does make sense considering how the relays start fluttering as the van shuts off.


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## miguel indurain (Jun 13, 1999)

Gruppe B said:


> Regarding the Hall Effect Sender on the Eurovans, when I first started having stall issues it would only kill the engine but I could start it again. This condition continued until one day it wouldn't restart at all.
> 
> 
> I read that if the tach does not show any movement when you are starting the engine it may be a falty Hall Effect Sender. I never checked this with my van when I had the problem.


 This was our experience as well; first few times the engine cut out was on the freeway @ 65 mph. The very first time there was a very momentary hesitation and I thought the gauges went to zero (or started to) and then the engine caught, and I was "WTF, did something just happen?" But then it would be a while before it happened again, but as time went on the frequency went up and if the vehicle was stopped you'd have to restart the engine. Finally got tired of playing roulette in traffic and ditched it on the dealer . Of course they burned off a quarter tank of gas idling it in the shop and it didn't quit on them, but it finally stranded the tech when he drove it home in heavy bumper to bumper traffic :thumbup:. Yep, it got fixed right quick after that.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Well, no change

Guess it's time for a Hall Sender.


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## miguel indurain (Jun 13, 1999)

I know we were talking about the ECU earlier, but, have you actually tried another *known good* ECU? Yeah, OK, it's not quite the thing that everyone has lying around, but if you do have one, it's reasonably simple to swap one out and see if it settles the van. In addition to the Hall sender issue, we also had an ECU go bad. When those go totally bad, it's a pretty sucky deal and you'll be calling for a tow, no restarting that bad boy. 

Here's a pic of our original ECU board after I opened it up after replacement:


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

If I had an ECU, it would have been in there a month or more ago:banghead:

If I knew someone local with a '92 automatic, I'd give them our ECU for a week, to see if there van acted the same as this one. 

So far, all I've found is used ones for a couple hundred on ebay. I'm not scoffing at the price. It's just that I don't want to throw $250 at this thing, and be wrong....and the way this has been going, I know I'll be wrong.

Nice burned diode or whatever on your ECU board!

I've seen quite a few Vanagon ECU's fail, and a few were intermittent like this, but as you say, all led to a tow truck.......or me showing up and dropping my spare ECU in, so they could get home.

It's just screwed that this thing restarts so soon each time it fails. That being said, the times it has done this, there was no spark, but plenty of fuel.

I see that http://store.europarts-sd.com/halleffectsender1992-1995.aspx has a Bosch Hall Sender for $125, so I guess that's the next money we'll throw at it. I'll pop the old (original to this van) distributor back in for a day or 2 first, just to rule out the current "good used" one that I've put in.

The ball buster of this whole deal is that I keep finding stuff wrong, make the repair, think I've finally figured it out, and then the problem continues.


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## miguel indurain (Jun 13, 1999)

Since you have two distributors, have you tried maybe switching the Hall senders? I'm sure you have better things to do, but, I'm just tossing out ideas that don't cost a lot of $$$.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

They're complete distributors, so there's no need to switch out the Hall Senders. The entire distributor only takes about 5min to change out. It's really easy.

When this whole thing first began, I went over to my buddy's house, fired up the EV, and it died for no reason, within a minute or 2. Wouldn't restart, no spark. No problem said I, these are known for having coil failures, so we'll just throw a coil in it. Popped in a new "Meyle" brand coil the next day, the EV ran great, and I thought it was a done deal. 

Couple days later I get the call: "Still doing it." So, I swap in the good used distributor that I'd taken from a '92 5spd EV in the local yard. Again, ran fine for a while, but then died on me going down the freeway at 65. Just shut down. Pulled over, immediately restarted and was fine.

So, I'm thinking the power relay for the ECU, and/or the fuel pump relay. Replace both....it's fine for hours and hours, and then shuts down, but restarts.

Next we replaced the relays that were heard buzzing and one that gets really hot.......still no change.

Pretty soon the symptoms are worse with it not starting good cold, and not starting right away for them when it would die in traffic. That's when it came over here on a tow truck last week. I found the cold start injector leaking and keeping the engine from starting cold, and then found the failed new coil, and finally, the moving of the oxs wire that was killing the engine. Fixed all that......throught nailed it, and here we are back to square one. Oh, and with a new ignition switch now too.

I'm not used to getting my ass kicked by a car.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

You may have tried most of these tests but just in case you haven't, maybe give this a read? 

http://tech.bentleypublishers.com/s...36822-365826-6965/Digifant basics 92-96EV.pdf


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Thanks for the link. But I'm just getting a blank page. Can you post it as a url and I'll just cut and paste and see how that works.


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## miguel indurain (Jun 13, 1999)

It should ask you if you want to open or save the .pdf as a local file. It's titled Digifant Basics 92-96EV.pdf or something close to that. Maybe you have a pop up blocker running that keeps you from seeing the Save window (at the bottom if running Win7)?


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Hmmm weird I'm on Windows Xp and it was working earlier today but now it's getting blocked and when I choose 'download file' I get a blank screen. 

Lemme see if I can find another way...


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Hmmm OK IDK what's up w/the browser but if you do a right-click and "save target as" and save the .pdf locally and then open it, seems to work.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

WinXP and no blocker running. I do get a warning tool bar up top that says, "click here (in the tool bar) to continue). After doing that, I get a little pop-up window with the option to download the file. But I don't get the normal "save" window that typically appears, and then nothing happens after that. Just a blank white page.


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## jets (Oct 12, 2005)

Works fine for me on Windows XP, 'do you want to open this file' click open & it goes in. 
Good find Matt.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Save Target As....... worked. Thanks!


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Okay, just back from putting the van's original distributor back in. 

You'll love this. Pop the dist. cap off the "good used" one in preparation to remove it, and I hear the clinking of plastic pieces falling down into the engine compartment. I'm thinking, "Great, what'd I just break?" Couldn't see anything and the dist. cap was fine.

Remove the "good used" dist. and as I'm pulling it out, more plastic pieces.......this time, falling out into my hand. WTF I get it out and find there's a bunch of white plastic pieces of I don't know what, down at the 6 o'clock position, packed in around the Hall Sender pickup.

No idea what this stuff is, or what it was from. Dug it all out and the dist. guts look fine, just like the van's original dist.

Anyway, popped in the original distributor and am now rocking myself in a dark corner, waiting for the next phone call.

I'll keep you all posted.


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## flopper (Feb 14, 2006)

Yeah, when I had the hall effect sender go on my '92 thats what happened. Intermitant no stall and no start until it just wouldn't restart. Ordered a sensor from the dealer and they told me 3 yrs ago it was the last one of two in north America. The dizzy cap was full of white plastic bits I assumed was the sender disintegrating inside. I feel your pain after chasing an intermitant stall, no start on my'85 which I found after a week of "I fixed it" but only revealed itself when the ignition module completely failed.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

So far, so good. He called yesterday and said that on their nomal Friday errands it was perfect. I'm not celebrating yet, because I could put all kinds of run and drive time on it, and it would be perfect. 

Time will tell.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Hmmm so we *think* it's the Hall effect sender in this case then? 

I replaced my coolant temperature sensor yesterday and reset the ECU. Car ran great for the first 15 minute trip. Idle behaved perfectly as it should, a little rich when cold, normal when warm, and rock solid and even when using the A/C it was perfect. On the trip home, about a minute after startup coming up to a stop sign, the engine stumbled and stalled (A/C on too).:banghead: This morning, again I had my low idle during warmup (initially fast (OK), but then dropped to a too-low 500rpm, stalled once coming up to a red light, but when warm returned to about 800rpm). Grrrrr! 

I have always been suspecting a fuel delivery issue as the stalling always follows coasting in gear with no throttle and never happens after acceleration. Car also displays no starvation issues under full throttle, hills, etc. Was always suspecting that after no-throttle coasting (fuel cutoff during coasting) that the fuel supply was not being turned on fast enough but I wonder if I really should be looking at ignition? Although the tach "stumbles" along with the engine where with an ignition problem I would expect the tach to always drop like a rock.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Well, day 3 and still no problems.....

Regarding the dying and uneven idle, I'd consider spraying the idle contol valve out with carb cleaner and then WD-40 and see what you think.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Did that once and killed it entirely :-( and had to buy another (used) one. Hesitant therefore to mess with it again. The old one (before I killed it) and current one acted pretty much the same.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

It does not kill an ISV to clean it. If it does, it was bad in the first place. So your first one was junk, and this "good used" one is either dirty and needs cleaned, or it's worn out too. It's what controls the idle, so if you have a bad idle.......there you go:thumbup:


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

No it did break, something jammed it. It did work before I cleaned it and then I cleaned it thinking it would work BETTER but after that it didn't work again at all. And it's part of controlling the idle but it's not ALL that controls the idle. It's just an air valve that pumps a default amount of air into the system when the throttle is closed but idle also is affected by temperature and ignition timing. 

Also a failed ISV will raise your idle to about 2000-2500rpm since the fuel-air mixture at idle will be richer, not stall the car.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

I've cleaned probably hundreds of them and never once had one fail after cleaning. Yours was just bad. They can fail in either direction, either killing the idle, or raising the idle. It's a shutter window that's cycle via the computer. The computer is looking at rpm and constantly adjusting the dwell of the ICV.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Well, it's different, but not fixed. It went 4 days before the first shut down, and it's also doing an intermittent no immediate fire up when hot. Takes a few starting attempts and then it fires and runs fine.

Just ordered a new Hall Sender, Part No. 052-998-065 for $102 from NAPA, supposed to be a reboxed Bosch unit in their "altrum(sp?)" line of import parts suppliers. Be here in the morning. It's listed at www.busdepot.com as fitting a bunch of VW's from 84-88, and the Vanagons 88-91. Comes with the wrong keyed base for the distributor, but I can reuse the Eurobarge's parts.

I'll keep ya posted.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Well.....so far, so good. No break downs and I'm being told that it actually runs smoother and has more power than it ever has.

Stay tuned


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## kmorrison (Jul 10, 2011)

miguel indurain said:


> This was our experience as well; first few times the engine cut out was on the freeway @ 65 mph. The very first time there was a very momentary hesitation and I thought the gauges went to zero (or started to) and then the engine caught, and I was "WTF, did something just happen?" But then it would be a while before it happened again, but as time went on the frequency went up and if the vehicle was stopped you'd have to restart the engine. Finally got tired of playing roulette in traffic and ditched it on the dealer . Of course they burned off a quarter tank of gas idling it in the shop and it didn't quit on them, but it finally stranded the tech when he drove it home in heavy bumper to bumper traffic :thumbup:. Yep, it got fixed right quick after that.


Mr. Indurain, I was so pleased to learn of a possible solution to our problem. Your description, including your initial response, was identical to our experience for the past 2 years. No one has been able to solve this problem. We even asked the Volkswagen Technician to take the van home for a week and naturally, he never experienced the problem. I have become so concerned about stalling unexpectedly while pulling into traffic that we have hesitated to take the kids camping with it. Could you tell me exactly what your mechanic did to correct the problem? Thank you for posting this topic.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Well, still not fixed.

Discovered that the Golf/Jetta to 1995 uses the same coil pack as the Eurovan, so I picked one up at a wrecking yard just to see if anything changed, since the brand new Meyle brand coil pack failed in a couple months, and I'd simply put the original coil pack back in. No change with the wrecking yard coil pack.

The only thing that's improved since the installation of the new Hall Sender, is that the engine immediately restarts on the first attempt, where before, it would sometimes take several re-start attempts of a period of maybe 30 seconds to a minute.

He's still getting some buzzing from a relay as the engine shuts off, but he can't get his hand one which relay is buzzing, before it stops.

This is really making me crazy. Would love to swap in an ECU if I could get my hands on the correct one.


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## 21-window (Jun 14, 2004)

I'm very curious what ends up fixing this. My 95 EV has similar symptoms all of a sudden. I'm starting with a coil as that is what put my old 93EV down one time.

I'll be watching. Good Luck:banghead:


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Still not fixed, and I've given up on it. I just can't take the kind of time needed to drive the thing around for umpteen days, until it fails, and then hope to be in a location, and be all prepped to start doing diagnostics on the side of the road.

Haven't been able to find a computer for it, so I told the owner to take it to the dealer......and there it sits, as of yesterday.

So just to refresh:
-New fuel pump relay, made no difference
-New ECU power supply relay, made no difference
-New hall sender in distributor, made it run better, but didn't cure the dying problem
-New ignition switch (the electrical portion), made no difference
-Repaired broken wiring in oxygen sensor harness, solved a huge problem where the engine compartment harness could be moved and the engine would die.
-Cleaned and tightened all battery positive and negative wires, made no difference
-Replaced the ignition coil with a brand new Meyle unit which didn't cure it, and then failed in about a month, causing it to die and not restart. Installing the old coil made no difference. Installing another used coil also made no difference to the original problem.
-Replaced the cold start injector, which cured a hard starting problem it was developing

-The only thing I've been able to prove, briefly, is that it's losing spark. Appears to always have fuel.

I'll definately post back with what the dealer finds, and what ultimately cures it. Hate to admit defeat, but apparently, I'm not smarter than a '93 Eurovan.:facepalm:


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## 21-window (Jun 14, 2004)

Thanks man.

Just tried a new coil on mine but just the same.

If you can get it to rev past 2k it seems fine just stumbles and predetonates trying to get to 2k??

Damn this sucks.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

You might want to check for some huge air leak somewhere. Torn hose between the valve cover and the air intake boot? Torn hose at the idle control valve, etc. Sounds like it's super lean.


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## 21-window (Jun 14, 2004)

does sound and feel lean. will look for crack but it only has 30k miles on it so I kinda doubt that.
and it doesn't always feel lean only when you first rev it and it misses. Once you get it revved up at mid throttle it feels fine. at full throttle it stumbles...

I put a timing light on it to watch the mark and when the car misses the mark jumps around quite a bit so it seems electronic to me ( though the tach does not jump at all) next step is to put a VOM on the o2 sensor to see if it it rich/lean or just right.

After thats passes,which i'm sure it will, I will try a new hall sensor. 

I'm pretty sure I'm going down the same road as you...:banghead:

The other thing I noticed is it seems to crank a good bit longer before it actually starts. It used to start very easily.


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## 21-window (Jun 14, 2004)

I also want to check the solder joints on relay #3. is that the third relay from the top left on the fusebox by your left knee?


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Rule out stuff by disconnecting it.

Disco the oxygen sensor connector (located under the van, sort of below the front passenger's feet) and that'll prove if it's the cause.

Disco the throttle position sensor...same deal.

If you can get it to run at a steady rpm, spray around with a can of carb cleaner and see if the running changes. Where ever you spray that changes how it runs is an intake air leak.

30k on something this old is actually bad for it. You can wind up with all sorts of issues from it sitting so much.....from mice either chewing wiring, or packing the intake air filter with dog food, house insulation and acorns, and packing the rear muffler and tail pipe with the same, to corrosion of electrical connectors, ground cables to engine and body, etc.

Could also be a leak in the diaphram of the brake vacuum booster, or a break in that plastic pipe that runs from the booster to the intake. That's the sort of intake leak that you never really think about, but it can wind up being a 1/2" diameter air leak.

Could be an idle control valve that's stuck wide open. Smack it with a screwdriver handle and see if the running changes. If it does, remove the hose from it, and spray it out with carb cleaner and then WD-40 and try again.

Doesn't sound like a similar problem to the one I'm dealing with. The one I have starts and runs perfect at all times, and then for no apparent reason, just instantly shuts off. It will generally fire right back up on the first start attempt.......and then run perfectly again.:screwy:


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## 21-window (Jun 14, 2004)

Ok you are right it is not exactly the same as your problem.

A little background: bought the "Rialta" about 300 miles ago.. it has always run perfect, but I've only owned it for maybe 5 months fixing things as I test things.

The very last thing I did before all the problems cropped up was build a new exhaust system for it.
The exhaust came out perfect and I was taking it for a test drive to listen for knocking or leaks when all of a sudden it stalls when I come to a stop sign. I go to restart it and now its pinging and reluctant to take throttle right off of idle. Once it revs it is fine. I luckily make it back to my driveway on my 5 mile test loop and again it stalls. I start it and make it back to the shop all the while trying to keep it running.

I don't want to push it too much because the first eurovan I ever had back in 93 was bought used from a dealer in 93, (93 eurovan) that had a holed piston. I rebuilt the engine and took it for a ride and it was pinging wildly (which is why it holed the piston) so I just retarded the timing and we drove it for another 170,000 miles. I never looked into why the timing seemed to change and hole the piston for the previous owner, but this seems very similar and if you continued to try to force drive it, it would also hole a piston.


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## 21-window (Jun 14, 2004)

And thanks. I will test the things you mentioned.

The way it is missing and sputtering all of a sudden it sure seems electrical.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

That's how we found this Eurovan. Dead #3 cylinder. Pulled the head and removed the pistons (110,000mi) and the back side (exhaust side) of #3 was completely eaten off, rings blown out, etc. 2 other pistons were on their way to looking like that. Cylinder walls were still perfect. Through a set of pistons in it, had the head rebuilt, put it back together and it ran great at idle, and just revved up, but had no power during driving. Cut the exhaust system off it and found the cat had broken apart, and the chunks had traveled down the system packing into the muffler, almost completely blocking the exhaust....hence the burned up exhaust side of the pistons. New Bosal system (I'll never install their crap again) and it was perfect.

It's been running perfect, except for a failed set of Denso spark plugs with only 10k on them, ever since. Then all of a sudden, it started this random shut down thing. I'm really pissed that I haven't been able to fix it myself.....and maybe I would have/could have, had I found a computer.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Failure to rev and some of this detonation kinda sounds like ignition timing to me. Has the timing been set properly (these are NOT set at idle...do some googling about setting digifant ign. timing). Must be done in a certain way w/the ECU coolant temp disconnected (but either before or after starting engine I can't remember, but it's important what sequence) and the PCV hose disconnected and plugged and is also set around 2500rpm too.

If that isn't it, then yeah maybe a vacuum leak.


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## 21-window (Jun 14, 2004)

gti_matt said:


> Failure to rev and some of this detonation kinda sounds like ignition timing to me. Has the timing been set properly



I never set it as the car only has 30k miles on it and was running perfectly just before this so I suspect something broke.


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## 21-window (Jun 14, 2004)

austinado16 said:


> That's how we found this Eurovan. Dead #3 cylinder. Pulled the head and removed the pistons (110,000mi) and the back side (exhaust side) of #3 was completely eaten off, rings blown out, etc. 2 other pistons were on their way to looking like that. Cylinder walls were still perfect. Through a set of pistons in it, had the head rebuilt, put it back together and it ran great at idle, and just revved up, but had no power during driving. Cut the exhaust system off it and found the cat had broken apart, and the chunks had traveled down the system packing into the muffler, almost completely blocking the exhaust....hence the burned up exhaust side of the pistons. New Bosal system (I'll never install their crap again) and it was perfect.
> 
> It's been running perfect, except for a failed set of Denso spark plugs with only 10k on them, ever since. Then all of a sudden, it started this random shut down thing. I'm really pissed that I haven't been able to fix it myself.....and maybe I would have/could have, had I found a computer.


Man now you have me thinking maybe the cat took a ****. maybe I will remove new exhaust while it is still fresh and cut the cat apart to see whats up...
Looks like what I'll be doing this weekend. Glad it's my car and not a customers, it would be a money loser for all parties involved.!

I have a VAG COM, but my car has no check engine light on so I don't think I'll see any results.


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## 21-window (Jun 14, 2004)

Ok so here's the latest as of 8:25 am.

Started car this am 69 degrees out (yesterday it was 87) and it starts up and runs perfect.

Take it around my 5 mile test loop and once the engine temp gets up at about 2.5 miles it starts with the miss, pinging, not wanting to take throttle down low, but once you get it revving it pulls _*ok*_ but not great.
Got it home disconnected the 02 sensor and it won't even start. Reconnect it and it starts but pings and detonates and misses. if you can work past that it will rev *ok*, but not great.

I also notice the smell of egg or sulfur wafting from the car. :screwy:


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## 21-window (Jun 14, 2004)

Ok

Timeline 9:43 am

Decided to try some simple stuff first . That's usually what gets ya anyway, grounds , plugs, filters, etc.

Put in a set of NGK 1263 BP6ET Triple electrode plugs and it *seems to be fixed!!!!*

Started right up not missing a beat and went around the block fine with no issues.

It had some VW Audi double electrode champions in it and they looked tired honestly.

Anyway I'm jacked as I had planned on spending the whole weekend F-ing with this thing.

I think I'll go have a margarita LOL :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## vanwesty (Mar 23, 2010)

Still working fine after the new plugs?


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## miguel indurain (Jun 13, 1999)

kmorrison said:


> Mr. Indurain, I was so pleased to learn of a possible solution to our problem. Your description, including your initial response, was identical to our experience for the past 2 years. No one has been able to solve this problem. We even asked the Volkswagen Technician to take the van home for a week and naturally, he never experienced the problem. I have become so concerned about stalling unexpectedly while pulling into traffic that we have hesitated to take the kids camping with it. Could you tell me exactly what your mechanic did to correct the problem? Thank you for posting this topic.


'Sorry kmorrison for the very late response to your inquiry from several weeks ago, I'm a somewhat spastic frequenter of this subforum.. Be that as it may, the short answer to your question is that the dealer tech replaced the hall effect sender on the distributor to fix my particular problem. He could very well have replaced everything that austinado16 has gone through in his frustrating journey, but it's the only item that he would own up to, and I think it's the only piece of hardware to show up on the invoice when I collected the van.

If you've been following this thread from beginning to end, you'll have quite a few options to try out in your troubleshooting, but if you think your symptoms are exactly the same as mine then you might want to try a new distributor to see if that makes your issue go away. Good luck.


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## 21-window (Jun 14, 2004)

Yip still running great after a couple hundred miles...




vanwesty said:


> Still working fine after the new plugs?


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Awesome news about the plugs fixing it. I am extremely particular about spark plugs because of sh!t like this. Can't tell you how many driveability issues that I've cured by installing a real set of spark plugs......as I mentioned on page 1, even cured a similar problem with this van a year or so ago, by putting in NGKs.:thumbup:


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

*Update:*

So as you know, I threw in the towel and told him to take it to the dealer. I thought if anything, they might have more training than me, have seen something like this before, or, with a couple of techs and their VAG1552, maybe get it to fail and be able to determine what caused it.

Instead, they note that the temp gauge doesn't work, tell him it needs a new temp sensor and that the current sensor is probably giving bad info to the computer causing the engine to go lean, or rich, and then die. $300 and a week later, he's home with the same problem, a working coolant temp gauge and coolant that looks like some jackass mixed pink with the blue that I had in it.

In a stroke of luck, an 023A ECU showed up on Ebay last Friday, and it arrived here this morning for $179 including shipping. I popped it in this morning, drove from his house to mine, and let it run in the driveway for 3hrs. It drove very different. Smoother acceleration, and much smoother shifting. Weird, eh? Drove it back to his house without issue. He ran their typical route and errands with it today, including using the wheel chair lift for his wife, and again, no issues. He also noticed the improve running and shifting.

So....we're back to that happy place where we think maybe it's fixed. Time will tell.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Well, I think I'm going to call it. It's fixed. No problems whatsoever all week.:thumbup:


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Nice! 

Just curious did you open the old ECU at all? I hear (and I plan to check mine whenever I get the time to play with it for a weekend day) that there's a short vacuum line *inside* the ECU for the MAP sensor and this can cause issues. Just wondering if that line is cracked or leaking and if it wasn't quite a whole ECU problem or if it was a vacuum line (although I guess in your case if a vacuum line it wouldn't be a "runs for 2 hours great and then dies" thing).


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

Haven't popped it open yet, but will. It does have a short length of hose, and I did do a vacuum test on that to confirm it didn't leak....but haven't laid eyes on it.


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## austinado16 (Apr 4, 2003)

*Update: Still Fixed!*

Happy New Year Eurovan friends!

Just thought I'd report in and say that the van is still running perfectly.:thumbup:


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