# **Dry Sump System**



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Ok decided to make a new thread since the previous was me looking for the actual pump.So I managed to get my hands on a Supervee Oil Pump and disected for all to see.

Notice the markings on the rotary vanes are facing upwards.


again,the marks on the rotary vanes are facing upward.



Now I also compiled a price list of the parts I have excountered and who has them.
*1. Moroso Oil Pan* - $400US

*2. ABA IM shaft with Scroll Gear for Oil Pump* - $300US from Bertils Engines.
*3. Moroso Oil Tank* #22687 - $250US (depending on source)
*4. Supervee Oil Pump* - $429US which is available from Pegasus Auto Racing Supplies.

*5. Adapter plate to mate the Pump to the Block* - As you can see I am still working on it.

Bare in mind alot of these parts are coming from places that sell to $1M race teams.I know 99% of you would not pay $300US for an IM shaft...







.Expect minor updates in the near future and hopefully this can become an economical solution for all.
Enjoy...


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*


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## purple-pill (Feb 2, 2003)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*

i think you would have better luck in another forum. as 90% of potential buyers are not turbocharged. try the rallye and roadracing sections....unless of course you already posted there. just my .02$ looks promising.


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## V84LNCH (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (purple-pill)*

nice. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 16ValveInside (Nov 20, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (V84LNCH)*

$1,379 plus adapter plate, for just the basic components.
good example of why these parts are sold to the 1M dollar Race Teams.
props to you for the research and posting the info. good idea that others may benefit from. 
Initially I think the savings would come from sourcing the Oil Pan and Tank from somewhere other than Moroso.
400.00 for an Oil Pan and 250.00 for a tank, this is where we should be able to start to trim the fat so to speak. 
I have to check but I know there are good quality less expensive tanks out there sold in different sizes, and I've seen a oil pan somewhere that would work with some fittings fabbed.
I appreciate the benefits of the Dry Sump System, I would not go to the expense of installing one, but it would be interesting to see how "reasonable" a price we could piece together a system for.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## talx (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*

Grate work isaam you are managing to catch my attention and get my interest in a dry oil sump configuration









What the hell dos Bertils want 300$ for an IM shaft that’s crazy








Now you say you can get the gear from Boston gear you have part # for that?
Would it be pressed onto the IM shaft?
I presume this is how you are going to setup the pump?








You’re going to need to make that mounting plate extremely accurate that’s going to be a hard job
Ore do you have a plate you are copying off?




_Modified by talx at 6:22 PM 12-14-2005_


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## G60syncro (Feb 7, 2001)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (talx)*

I'm sure someone with a MIG and basic welding skill can make a dry-sump oil pan for free (almost) by modifying their stocker... right?? I mean you'd only need a piece of sheetmetal to cap off where you cut the pan open. If you go to any welding shop in town, they's bound to have a small piece to suit your needs that they'll sell you for the spare change in your pocket, no questions asked!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
As far as accuracy of the plate, here's what I do: I bought pairs of shouldered screws for M6, M8, M10 and M12 threads... typical VW bolt sizes used eveywhere. They have a hardened and ground finished shoulder that make accurate measurements easy!! Just screw them in both holes you want to know the distance. For example, an M8 shoulder screw has a 10mm dia. shoulder... screw them in your holes and measure the outside distance of the shoulders with a caliper. Say it gives you 234mm (outside) - 10mm (shoulder diameter) = 224mm center distance.


_Modified by G60syncro at 12:26 PM 12-14-2005_


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (talx)*


_Quote, originally posted by *16ValveInside* »_$1,379 plus adapter plate, for just the basic components.
good example of why these parts are sold to the 1M dollar Race Teams.

Yes because prices are over inflated and race teams have $$ to burn.99.9% of vortex members try to make do with what they can.

_Quote, originally posted by *16ValveInside* »_
400.00 for an Oil Pan and 250.00 for a tank, this is where we should be able to start to trim the fat so to speak.

I can get a Tank and Oil pan made with (1) 8-AN fitting for under $200US and this is quality welding.The IM shaft gear is $19 @ Boston Gear.I can easily do this setup for half the $1379 price quote.

_Quote, originally posted by *talx* »_
What the hell dos Bertils want 300$ for an IM shaft that’s crazy








Now you say you can get the gear from Boston gear you have part # for that?

Not righ now.If I need to,I would buy 2 matching scroll gears and just change the one on the oil pump to match the one I will use on the IM shaft.

_Quote, originally posted by *talx* »_
Would it be pressed onto the IM shaft?

From what I have seen,it appears as though they cut a cast stock shaft into 2 parts and press fit both ends into the scroll gear.When I contacted Bertil,he told me that was incorrect and the shaft was a complete new cast.This I find hard to believe since its illegal to cast VW emblams into a custom part.If it has VW emblems on it then that means it comes from Volkswagen.









_Quote, originally posted by *talx* »_
I presume this is how you are going to setup the pump?
You’re going to need to make that mounting plate extremely accurate that’s going to be a hard job

Thats Powerdubs set up and yes mine will be similar.I am making my own mounting plate because I do not want the oil filter down there.I will remote locate the oil filter and just run a 8-AN return line into the Block.It will be as accurate as it needs to be,I am not making the plate with a nail file.....


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_From what I have seen,it appears as though they cut a cast stock shaft into 2 parts and press fit both ends into the scroll gear.When I contacted Bertil,he told me that was incorrect and the shaft was a complete new cast.This I find hard to believe since its illegal to cast VW emblams into a custom part.If it has VW emblems on it then that means it comes from Volkswagen.


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## Action Jackson (Nov 20, 2001)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (G60syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *G60syncro* »_I'm sure someone with a MIG and basic welding skill can make a dry-sump oil pan for free (almost) by modifying their stocker... right?? I mean you'd only need a piece of sheetmetal to cap off where you cut the pan open. If you go to any welding shop in town, they's bound to have a small piece to suit your needs that they'll sell you for the spare change in your pocket, no questions asked!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Coundn't you just cut it down in height, and throw two spouts on it?
Tell me again why I want a dry sump. Is this only saving on paristic drag of the OEM pump setup?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Action Jackson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Action Jackson* »_Coundn't you just cut it down in height, and throw two spouts on it?

You could but you want it to be as close to the bottom of the block as possible.The only aluminum pan's that is available stateside is the AEB & AGU unit (read...old style block not new style) and there is alot of material to remove from these pans but it will work.


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## talx (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Action Jackson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
You could but you want it to be as close to the bottom of the block as possible.The only aluminum pan's that is available stateside is the AEB & AGU unit (read...old style block not new style) and there is alot of material to remove from these pans but it will work.

I thought we discussed this AGU is a new still internal water pump so the pan will not work









_Quote, originally posted by *Action Jackson* »_
Coundn't you just cut it down in height, and throw two spouts on it?
Tell me again why I want a dry sump. Is this only saving on paristic drag of the OEM pump setup?

I guess you could cut the AEB pan and make a dry sump out of it but how much work would you be saving all you need from the pan is the mounting outer lip and that’s all you can use
Now I can see how the IM shaft is going to be a PITA to fined a solution for it other than purchase one from Bertils
And another question that concerns me is if I do decide to go with the Bertil shaft do they make one for an AEB engine? I am under the impression that AEB engine block uses a different shaft from an ABA

Now an external pump Would have the additional benefit of causing a vacuum in the engine blockby pumping oil out of the block and will eliminate the need in a breather system and ****ty PCV 
this helps pull the rings down and seat them better to prevent blow by


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (talx)*


_Quote, originally posted by *talx* »_I thought we discussed this AGU is a new still internal water pump so the pan will not work









I meant AUG or whatever the VW Passat of that area is.

_Quote, originally posted by *talx* »_
I guess you could cut the AEB pan and make a dry sump out of it but how much work would you be saving all you need from the pan is the mounting outer lip and that’s all you can use

Well the AEB pan also has support casted into it for the gearbox.This is what I was mainly after.

_Quote, originally posted by *talx* »_
And another question that concerns me is if I do decide to go with the Bertil shaft do they make one for an AEB engine? I am under the impression that AEB engine block uses a different shaft from an ABA

Well the shaft from Bertils is a 1.8 8V shaft.You can press off the gear for the distributor as well as machine the snout the accept a 16V/early 20V IM shaft gear.


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## talx (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Well the AEB pan also has support casted into it for the gearbox.This is what I was mainly after.


This is true if you are talking about a longdishunal engine because with a transverse engine the AEB oil pan will not bolt up to the 02j trany with out modifying the oil pan 

_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Well the shaft from Bertils is a 1.8 8V shaft.You can press off the gear for the distributor as well as machine the snout the accept a 16V/early 20V IM shaft gear.

$hit man if im going to be sinking 300$ in an IM shaft it should come pimped and covered in gold with diamonds








And no need for me to machine it ore anything of that sort nothing but a flush fit


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## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
From what I have seen,it appears as though they cut a cast stock shaft into 2 parts and press fit both ends into the scroll gear.When I contacted Bertil,he told me that was incorrect and the shaft was a complete new cast.This I find hard to believe since its illegal to cast VW emblams into a custom part.If it has VW emblems on it then that means it comes from Volkswagen.










That IM shaft is an off the shelf VWRacing piece. VWRacing uses the ABA engine in the Formula Volkswagen series in Germany.


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## 130_R (May 24, 2001)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (G60syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *G60syncro* »_I'm sure someone with a MIG and basic welding skill can make a dry-sump oil pan for free (almost) by modifying their stocker... right?? I mean you'd only need a piece of sheetmetal to cap off where you cut the pan open. If you go to any welding shop in town, they's bound to have a small piece to suit your needs that they'll sell you for the spare change in your pocket, no questions asked!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


Considering that to shorten a stock oil pan will require atleast four feet of weld bead, I doubt anyone would wasnt to do that sort of work for free. Not to mention the fittings and sheet would probably cost about 100 bucks just to have it ready to weld, the cost of the Moroso pan is quite reasonable.


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## G60syncro (Feb 7, 2001)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (130_R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *130_R* »_
Considering that to shorten a stock oil pan will require atleast four feet of weld bead, I doubt anyone would wasnt to do that sort of work for free. Not to mention the fittings and sheet would probably cost about 100 bucks just to have it ready to weld, the cost of the Moroso pan is quite reasonable.

I guess I did'nt phrase correctly... I meant if the guy who wanted the dry sump owned a MIG welder... But come on guys, you must at least have some friends somewhere. Or make some!!
Besides, my suggestion would be to make the pan out of steel. It's not like you'd need the heat transfer capacity of aluminium since you're draining the oil out of there anyways!!


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## MorpheusMac (Jan 6, 2001)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*

Eurospec Sport sells their dry sump pan for $369 retail 










_Modified by MorpheusMac at 11:46 AM 12-16-2005_


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (130_R)*


_Quote, originally posted by *130_R* »_That IM shaft is an off the shelf VWRacing piece. VWRacing uses the ABA engine in the Formula Volkswagen series in Germany.

No its not.
Brabham and VWMS cut the IM shafts into 2 parts and press fitted the scroll gears on each end.This made the shaft very unstable.Bertils rectified this by machining off the rear bearing matting surface and sliding the scroll gear onto the shaft.They then press fitted a new bearing surface on the IM shaft making it much more stable.

_Quote, originally posted by *G60syncro* »_Besides, my suggestion would be to make the pan out of steel. It's not like you'd need the heat transfer capacity of aluminium since you're draining the oil out of there anyways!!

Aluminum is alot easier to work with (to me at least).


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## G60syncro (Feb 7, 2001)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (PowerDubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PowerDubs* »_










Dunno if this is right, but there are early VW shafts that have a cam lobe in that area... Could they have gotten rough castings and machined them???


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (G60syncro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *G60syncro* »_Dunno if this is right, but there are early VW shafts that have a cam lobe in that area... Could they have gotten rough castings and machined them???

The early 1.8 8V's had a mechanical fuel pump with a lobe in that area.The location is the same but there is noway you can press a gear onto the lobe without cutting the shaft into 2 pieces @ that area.


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## diddle (Nov 6, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*

When the slip the gear and the new bearing surface on are they welded into place?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (diddle)*


_Quote, originally posted by *diddle* »_When the slip the gear and the new bearing surface on are they welded into place?









Press fitted,doesnt need to be welded but I am going to weld mine.
Looks like the adapter plate is going to be a little more of a challenge than I encountered.It appears that the rear IM shaft bearing is fed by a tiny oil port under the main oil feed port.



and finally...How the scroll gear on the pump *should* be positioned:


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## diddle (Nov 6, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*

Would it be possible to just get an IM shaft and machine a gear onto it?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (diddle)*


_Quote, originally posted by *diddle* »_Would it be possible to just get an IM shaft and machine a gear onto it?

sure but the gear diameter is twice as large as the IM shaft diameter.What do you propose?Any positive input on this topic would be greatly appreciated.
Second Iteration of adapter plate:


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## diddle (Nov 6, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*

Hmmm, if you machined the gearing onto a stock IM shaft and then made the pumps gear larger, wouldn't the gearing between the two be the same?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (diddle)*


_Quote, originally posted by *diddle* »_Hmmm, if you machined the gearing onto a stock IM shaft and then made the pumps gear larger, wouldn't the gearing between the two be the same?









Sure,now find me a scroll gear that small








Third & Final Iteration of the Adapter Plate.The Oil Pump will be secured to this plate and then the plate will be secured to the block.

(click picture for bigger image)
...Anyone got any dry-sump parts they want to sell?


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## RickDat (Nov 4, 2003)

If the scroll gear is too difficult then you can forget the aux shaft driven pump and just have a set of belt driven pumps sitting alongside the engine - like in a conventional racecar setup.


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## RickDat (Nov 4, 2003)

*Re: Dry Sump*

I bought a dry sump setup on Ebay (my first ever Ebay purchase!). I think it cost about $US400 but not sure. This was his ad:
This is a dry sump pump and pan originally used on Super Vee VW Motor. Pump could be adapted to other engines. Water pump is integral, but can be removed. Made by Drake Engineering. Originally aquired to fit to our Rabbit race car, though we never fitted it. Pump turns smoothly and has always had some oil in it for storage. Pan has been professionally repaired at some point, but holds solvent with no sign of leaking. This system inludes the pan and pump assembly as illustrated, tank and lines not included. 
and these were his photos (yes, very small):
























Rick Dathan
Australia


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## euroworks (Jul 15, 2003)

not to sound like an idiot but what benefits do you get with this system and are there any power gains


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*explanation time....*


_Quote, originally posted by *RickDat* »_If the scroll gear is too difficult then you can forget the aux shaft driven pump and just have a set of belt driven pumps sitting alongside the engine - like in a conventional racecar setup. 

I am all about OEM Plus.I like the engines I build to look as though they came from Volkswagen themselves.Hence the reason I went with the IM shaft driven pump.If I wanted to run an external oil pump driven via a toothed belt,I wouldve gone over to the new blocks with an internal water pump.I have an ABF alternator setup that is pretty slick and hopefully I can make this work.
Bertils does have the scroll gear for the IM shaft separate but they want $84US for it.If I have to buy 2 matching scroll gears from Boston gear with the same rotating ratio,then I guess I will have to do that.
By the way your Drake dry-sump set up is RARE!







....very nice components my friend. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 









_Quote, originally posted by *euroworks* »_not to sound like an idiot but what benefits do you get with this system and are there any power gains

*1.* Your able to lower your engine hence making your vehicle have a lower COG.
*2.* Relocation of Oil Weight from the front wheel's to the rear aiding in balancing the car.
*3.* Less Oil for the Crankshaft to rotate through causing less Parastitic Drag on it.
*4.* No Oil starvation under high *G's* which allows the user to maintain a constant oil pressure.
*5.* Vaccuum in the Crankcase.Pressure in the crankcase can cause blow-by which is a no no for Forced Induced Engines.
*6.* It just looks cool








When there is less oil for the crankshaft to "slosh" through,the power the engine makes will be free'ed up so if you were making 150bhp before,you will be making 155bhp now.The gains are not that great but if your a die-hard enthusiast then the gains wouldnt matter...


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## polov8 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: explanation time.... (Wizard-of-OD)*

Must.....resist ......urge......to......buy.......dry......sump.........








Looks sick dude, I want


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## talx (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: explanation time.... (polov8)*

Don’t even try and resist…………….. the force is strong with this one









issam i hate you










_Modified by talx at 8:01 PM 12-21-2005_


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: explanation time.... (talx)*


_Quote, originally posted by *talx* »_Don’t even try and resist…………….. the force is strong with this one









isaam i hate you









Is that why you replied twice and spelt my name wrong?


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## dbreid (Jan 29, 2003)

*Re: Dry Sump (RickDat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RickDat* »_I bought a dry sump setup on Ebay (my first ever Ebay purchase!). I think it cost about $US400 but not sure. This was his ad:
This is a dry sump pump and pan originally used on Super Vee VW Motor. Pump could be adapted to other engines. Water pump is integral, but can be removed. Made by Drake Engineering. Originally aquired to fit to our Rabbit race car, though we never fitted it. Pump turns smoothly and has always had some oil in it for storage. Pan has been professionally repaired at some point, but holds solvent with no sign of leaking. This system inludes the pan and pump assembly as illustrated, tank and lines not included. 
and these were his photos (yes, very small):
























Rick Dathan
Australia

I have the same setup (Drake), but I hope you have the rest of the pieces? There are a bunch of other gears and parts not in those pictures. I cross referenced my parts carefully with the catalogs I have from their stuff. If you ever sell that setup, let me know, and I have ALL the rest of the Drake Pieces for that motor, and would love spares, so I actually have the balls to run the thing.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Dry Sump (dbreid)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dbreid* »_
I have the same setup (Drake), but I hope you have the rest of the pieces? There are a bunch of other gears and parts not in those pictures. I cross referenced my parts carefully with the catalogs I have from their stuff. If you ever sell that setup, let me know, and I have ALL the rest of the Drake Pieces for that motor, and would love spares, so I actually have the balls to run the thing.

Would you be willing to part with any of it?








Also found another source for the Oil Pump,this time from Pace Products over in UK.

The Plate is now being made so that the Oil Pump sits approximately in this location










Thanks to Rodney Huss (rhussjr) the angle has been confirmed @ 18*. (+/- 1*).Decided to clean up the final drawing in solidworks.The good thing about making your own plate is that you can now use Various Dry Sump Oil Pumps.The options are endless

Now I have started working on the Scroll Gear for the IM shaft Pump.
The Angle of twist is ~ 56.3* and the dimensions of the pump gear can be seen in the below diagram:

(click picture for increased resolution)
Merry Christmas all


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## talx (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: Dry Sump (Wizard-of-OD)*

So I have bin joining arms with Wizard-of-OD to get this setup up and working for a reasonable price http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Well with IM shaft there is two solutions one expensive one and one not so expensive that have bin already suggested
The first would be to machine the rear bearing and the shaft then pres the gear and a new bearing
The second solution which is probably going to be expensive would be to machine the whole shaft on a mill 
So I have sketched the im shaft up and will take it to my machine shop that I get most of this type of work don at we shale see how expensive it will really be 
I’m not thinking to expensive probably around 200$ 
We only need to fined out the dimension of gear we are going to need to use with the oil pomp so If any one has some input pleas do not be shay








Next on the list is the oil sump



















_Modified by talx at 3:22 AM 12-28-2005_


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## Scirocco53 (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: Dry Sump (talx)*

You guys have really taken the bull by the horns here. Good job, can't wait to see the final results!


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## talx (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: Dry Sump (Scirocco53)*

Ok oil pan is almost finished I had to figure out a few design flows on the way and I hate working with sheet metal on CAD








The oil pan will work with any 86.4 stroke engine but just an extra 6mm height and it will work with a longer stroke 
I have also designed it to work with a block girdle so there is sufficient clearance for the main cap studs
Something that I forgot to take in account with the first sketch I did and now it will also work with out one


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## sciroccoR (Dec 23, 2003)

*Re: Dry Sump (Wizard-of-OD)*

well, i've been thinking about this. on my motor, an AEB, there's a nice big hole where the distributor would be. the IM shaft already has a helical gear on it that mates awfully nicely with the shaft on a distributor. the bearing system and alignment of the gears is already engineered (courtesy of VW). Now all one has to do is engineer the interface of the dizzy shaft to the shaft of a pump and devise a method (which should be extremely simple) of fixing the pump to prevent rotation.
i think that this would be compact, light, less complex and less expensive than, for example, Bertil's super Vee setup as you don't need a new IM shaft. another benefit is that you could install it with the motor already in the car as you don't need to yank the IM shaft. 
so, wizza (rhymes with pizza?) what do you think about that? can you think of a small, compact pump? it's got to be small so that it clears the intake manifold. 
find me one! if you do, i'll get a used dizzy from somewhere and i'll build a system. it can't be very hard at all.
I LIKE this idea quite a bit.








do you????


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## sciroccoR (Dec 23, 2003)

*Re: Dry Sump (sciroccoR)*

like this one? will it flow enough?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Ford-Twin-...wItem


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## diddle (Nov 6, 2004)

*Re: Dry Sump (sciroccoR)*

I've wondered that too.


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## sciroccoR (Dec 23, 2003)

*Re: Dry Sump (diddle)*

here's one from pegasus that seems perfect...it even has the filter mounted on it. could this be any easier? http://www.pegasusautoracing.c...=3607
anyone have any idea of required flow rates???


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Dry Sump (sciroccoR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sciroccoR* »_the bearing system and alignment of the gears is already engineered (courtesy of VW). Now all one has to do is engineer the interface of the dizzy shaft to the shaft of a pump and devise a method (which should be extremely simple) of fixing the pump to prevent rotation. 

Eurospec's dry sump system was similar to what you are describing.The Oil pump was a single stage unit though and was powered by the IM shaft in the same fashion as the distributor (oil pump is next to the oil pan).








The only stock vw component that I have seen some *close* to this design is the VW 1.6/1.9 Turbo Diesel Vaccuum Pump.
1.6 Diesel Vaccuum Pump
1.6 Diesel Vaccuum Pump Inside
I managed to look @ one and turning it into a 2 Stage oil pump will be a challenge but its definately do-able.

_Quote, originally posted by *sciroccoR* »_like this one? will it flow enough?http://cgi.ebay.com/Ford-Twin-...wItem

Thats the Super-Vee pump Doc.Its found in the Ford 1600,Lotus 1600,VW 1600,Toyota 1600.All carry the same generic pump.Enjoy shipping it from UK


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## the4ork (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: Dry Sump (Wizard-of-OD)*

-adds into watched topics-
so can we get a rough estimate on when this would be up for grabs? will there be any aba/aeb problems or differences?


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## AchtungRacing (Mar 3, 2003)

*Re: Dry Sump (talx)*

Hi Tal, are you going to have the block girdle made or were can it be bought? 
Alex


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## glibobbo21 (Nov 11, 2002)

*Re: Dry Sump (AchtungRacing)*

good work, now find me a way to dry sump a PT


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Mega Tech Post*


_Quote, originally posted by *the4ork* »_will there be any aba/aeb problems or differences?

Not that I know of since all the 4-Cylinder external water pump blocks have a hole in that exact position.So essentially this should work on AEB/ABA/9A/3A/PL/PG/etc
Jason I posted my reply here because I didnt want to soil your For sale thread.Prefer to keep all the technical posts in 1 section.

_Quote, originally posted by *bopper* »_ 
1st That's a super vee kit.. and if you know any thing about super vees, then you know that their 1.6l 8v... witch mean that it will not match up to the new blocks... (only 2 bolt mach up on the flange) 
THAT MEANS CUTTING AND WELDING ... 
2nd That means the oil out lets on the flange wont mach up...
MORE CUTTING AND WELDING...

Well to rectify this problem I made an adapter plate in solid works (see above) that allows you to mount the Super Vee/Cosworth/etc pump to either the 9A or ABA block.The oil outlet was a concern @ first but I simply had it welded **** and ran a 12-AN fitting from the opposite side to a remote located oil filter.As you know unlike the 8V,the 16V/20V Intake manifold would hang over that oil filter.Something I really did not want to do.

_Quote, originally posted by *bopper* »_ 
3rd The intermediate shaft drive was in tented to run with a 1.6l crank.So when you use a bigger crank shaft the rods hit the gear.
You can just see it (hope you have a lathe)

Thanks for this information,guess I will have to grind the Gear when it mates to the IM shaft.

_Quote, originally posted by *bopper* »_ 
4th the pan was made for a 1.6l so you need a pan spacer.That was my motor with an OG bertil's super vee set up.

Well I was making my pan from a stock AEB oil pan which worked fine with a TDi crankshaft.Should have something on this before the weekend is over.

_Quote, originally posted by *bopper* »_ 
5th you cant change the shaft speed of the pump.. the only adjustment you have tighten the spring or change it for a stiffer on
(i have 3 different pulleys and an oil perisher adjustment on the pump)

Allthough a Stage-3 pump is better than the Super Vee 2-Stage pump (definately not denying this),I was after an OEM+ set up making the engine look as though it came from Volkswagen themselves.Not many can understand this as I even went as far as to have an ABF adjustable alternator just because I didnt want to use a Nissan unit.
If I was going to use the Moroso Pump on my system I would mount it where a stock PS pump would be and just run an electrical PS Pump.

_Quote, originally posted by *bopper* »_ 
6th -Blow By- with that single scavenge.. you will be lucky to make 1inch pound of vac.. that may cut it on a N/A car. but on a boost car its not going to cut it.

Did you test this yourself?
*Update:*
Special Thanks goes out to *Bobqzzi* for sourcing me an IM shaft gear. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to Uncle Bob

After a couple of minutes with a band saw this was the outcome of the gear:


_Quote, originally posted by *glibobbo21* »_good work, now find me a way to dry sump a PT








...Thats going to be badass


----------



## sciroccoR (Dec 23, 2003)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (Wizard-of-OD)*

ok, so, now you've got the two gears, are you going to measure their pitch and do it properly? also, the gear on the shaft of the pump, it's not removable? if not, couldn't you spin down the shaft and put your own gear set on there?


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (sciroccoR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sciroccoR* »_ok, so, now you've got the two gears, are you going to measure their pitch and do it properly?

Thats what I plan to do.I have been focusing more and getting 12-AN fittings with built in filters as well as the oil pan more than anything.I think bob is going to approve of the oil pan built for 1 scavange pump.

_Quote, originally posted by *sciroccoR* »_
also, the gear on the shaft of the pump, it's not removable? if not, couldn't you spin down the shaft and put your own gear set on there?

The gear on the oil pump itself is removeable as its only secured to the pump shaft via a locking pin,but sourcing the gears are no longer an issue as these pumps came on numourous vehicles.One thing I recently noticed is the pumps ability to have scavenge sections added onto it enabling it to be turned into a 2-scavenge or even 3-scavenge oil pump.







(requires a longer shaft of course)


----------



## Scirocco53 (Mar 9, 2002)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (Wizard-of-OD)*

Are you able to source the scavange sections? I would prefer a 3 stage pump to one any day.


----------



## I-Rocco2 (Dec 8, 2003)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (Wizard-of-OD)*

You could use the OBerg dry sump pump it works really well off a belt drive?


----------



## gti005 (Apr 18, 2004)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (Wizard-of-OD)*

This is great i'm looking to make a race ABA 20V ITB motor, http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
keep us informed on the progress.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (gti005)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scirocco53* »_Are you able to source the scavange sections? I would prefer a 3 stage pump to one any day.

I can source Scavenge sections from damaged pumps but if 1 scavenge is good enough for the Super-Vee then its good enough for me.Ive spoken with a couple of guys who were on super-vee teams and such and they didnt record any oil starvation problems,etc.I figure 2-scavenge & 3-scavenge would be for extra insurance.

_Quote, originally posted by *I-Rocco2* »_You could use the OBerg dry sump pump it works really well off a belt drive?









Yes they work off of belt drive they dont look "OEM" to me.I was actually considering this @ first before I looked into using the Super-Vee set up.Basically mount a *Moroso #25630 Sport compact oil pump* under the alternator in the picture below allowing me to run the outside of the cogged belt along the smooth surface of the VR6 water pump pulley.I would have to remake the water pump vane to rotate the opposite direction which is not really an issue for a plastic maker.








Images of the *VWMS Cogged Accessory gears* can be viewed here.
This setup would be ideal for the internal water pump block (AW"X") but not for the external water pump block as I still have an intermediate shaft that I want to use.Why waste it?
The Super-Vee oil pump worked fine on the 8V engine so I dont see why it wont work well on the 20V engine.My only worry is Vaccuum and if push comes to shove I will rig up something using the 1.6TD vaccuum pump.

_Quote, originally posted by *gti005* »_This is great i'm looking to make a race ABA 20V ITB motor

Have you seen *vwpat's* for sale thread?Could be a good place to start sourcing the required parts.
*As for ITB's,feel free to hit me up via IM for a 20V ITB kit*

_Quote, originally posted by *gti005* »_ keep us informed on the progress.









Well I had wanted to sell the oil pump last week but got seriously lowballed so I would prefer to burn the pump than sell it for $150







.
_Update_ : Chopped up the Oil pan,will post up pictures later http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## sciroccoR (Dec 23, 2003)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (Wizard-of-OD)*

how about some progress??? any news?


----------



## sciroccoR (Dec 23, 2003)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (Wizard-of-OD)*

i wasn't talking about MY updates!








no, i am going to need one very soon. like in a few weeks. (maybe two)
so, i can go with bertil's. maybe bopper's if he decides he wants to sell it. i im-ed him today but no response of yet. anything new on your horizon?


----------



## sciroccoR (Dec 23, 2003)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (Wizard-of-OD)*

i spoke with bertil yesterday. he said his super vee kit would not be good enough for a turbo race motor. bob's idea is to use that kit and make both stages (it's two stage) into scavenge stages. then, use the pressure portion of the internal oil pump to run the pressure up. what do you think about that? what i don't know is if the new jack shaft for bertil's pump will still drive the internal oil pump. what do you think?


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (sciroccoR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sciroccoR* »_i spoke with bertil yesterday. he said his super vee kit would not be good enough for a turbo race motor. bob's idea is to use that kit and make both stages (it's two stage) into scavenge stages. then, use the pressure portion of the internal oil pump to run the pressure up. what do you think about that? what i don't know is if the new jack shaft for bertil's pump will still drive the internal oil pump. what do you think?

That would require you to cut into the oil pan in order to get to the stock oil pump pick up,not an idea I like,the fabrication required would be pointless IMHO.
I would just build an oil pan and run an external 3-Stage pump from moroso under the alternator (unless your running power steering)
Or build 2 Brabham/Cosworth pumps into 1 so that you can achieve 2 scavange sections & 1 pump section.You add onto to the section in the image below.

This should be interested to say the least since you only need to source a blank shaft,cut it and then have half moon keyways cut into it.
_Some updates:_
Managed to score myself a Canton 6" Remote Oil filter (Model # : *#25-106*)

And a Super-vee dry sump cast oil pan.

Now everything is in the hands of Mr. Jarod Legsdin (XKROMX) who has taken NA performance to a whole other level.

_Quote, originally posted by *X K R O M X* »_Are you sure about this sam? Your concerned that the filter will hit the lower manifold on a 16v engine right?

The oil filter will be placed right under the intake manifold.The 20V Head is taller than the 16V head so imagine all of that under there plus the water manifold from the 16V head.I just dont see it working...








p.s. Jarod I hope you dont mind if we continue the discussion in this topic.


----------



## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (Wizard-of-OD)*

From what I can tell the only real issue is the upper water jacket on the water pump that needs to go up to the head (on a 16v) I will have to wait until I get the stuff from Sam and the other junk I just got and look @ it more closely but I believe the only thing I will have to modify is the hose going to the upper portion of the water pump from the head.
MY existing set up only use the hose from the top jacket of the water pump and it goes directly up the side of the block into the head. worst case scenario i have to weld up a adapter tube. Time will tell.


----------



## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (X K R O M X)*

You know what I just realized you don't even need those two water pump provisions as long as you have the main large on @ the bottom of the pump and the main large on going out of the head to the radiator,There problem solved cap them, weld them then forget about them


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (X K R O M X)*


_Quote, originally posted by *X K R O M X* »_You know what I just realized you don't even need those two water pump provisions as long as you have the main large on @ the bottom of the pump and the main large on going out of the head to the radiator,There problem solved cap them, weld them then forget about them









What you going to do with the thermostat?Those 2 outlets are for the thermostat bypass.You going to eliminate it?


----------



## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (Wizard-of-OD)*

I have never run a T-state anyways.So as far as I can tell those two pasages are usless to me.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (X K R O M X)*


_Quote, originally posted by *X K R O M X* »_I have never run a T-state anyways.So as far as I can tell those two pasages are usless to me.

So you just cancelled the water housing port on the side of the head and just ran the coolant return from the back of the head?Sounds like a good idea for an all out race car but I would have still tried to maintain the thermostat loop.If your going to weld shut the water pump housing then get an AEB unit as they have the coolant drain plug.


----------



## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (Wizard-of-OD)*

You don't need the t-stat, typically I just gut the spring mechanism and use the outer housing to just add a little restriction for the water.My car has only seen 200*F once and that's when I shredded my accesorie pulley belt even then it did not over heat


----------



## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (Wizard-of-OD)*

I am not gonna even use a vw alternator anymore I think I will go with a honda one, the civic alternator's are really tiny.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (X K R O M X)*


_Quote, originally posted by *X K R O M X* »_I am not gonna even use a vw alternator anymore I think I will go with a honda one, the civic alternator's are really tiny.

Nascar light weight units go up on ebay all the time.
Found an interesting PDF files of a *pace dry sump system being fitting to a Peugeot 205 XU9JA engine*

Would be interesting to adapt that pump to the VW oil pan.Would just have to relocate or cancel the Power steering system.


----------



## RickDat (Nov 4, 2003)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (Wizard-of-OD)*

Excellent document by that guy. I like the out-of-the-way mounting of the pumps, but can you believe 12 metres of hose all together?
As I own a 205GTI myself, I have already passed the link onto the Aussie Frogs forum.


----------



## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (Wizard-of-OD)*

This is a cool read, I have just recently establish a relationship with Pace in the Uk,Neil is a decent guy and very helpful with what you need, If I had not got the items I have now I would have ran this type of set up but I will make what I have work and go from there!

_Modified by X K R O M X at 12:53 PM 4-26-2006_


_Modified by X K R O M X at 1:08 PM 4-26-2006_


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (X K R O M X)*


_Quote, originally posted by *X K R O M X* »_If I had not got the items I have now I would have ran this type of set up but I will make what I have work and go from there!

How?
Does Pace make a setup similar to the Peugeot unit for VW's?


----------



## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (Wizard-of-OD)*

Not simular but they have the pump on the set up available, and you could modify it to work with the correct oil pan.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (X K R O M X)*


_Quote, originally posted by *X K R O M X* »_Not simular but they have the pump on the set up available, and you could modify it to work with the correct oil pan.

I would prefer to buy the pump and build the pan from scratch.


----------



## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (Wizard-of-OD)*

exactly my point


----------



## sciroccoR (Dec 23, 2003)

*Re: Mega Tech Post ([email protected])*

i would


----------



## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: Mega Tech Post ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Just guaging an interest here but how many of you would consider purchasing a Dry Sump kit for under $1300US?

i would def be interested! could i afford it in the next year, not likely, but i do know at least 3 others that would want one at some point!


----------



## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: Mega Tech Post (Wizard-of-OD)*

Sorry sam I have been really busy with head work I have not even touched my car in weeks.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Decided to start battling the ALH block since I handed over the ABA project to Jarod.So I got back into the swing of things and fired up the Solidworks again to create the oil filter flange that bolts to the side of the block.The big hole in the centre will be tapped for a 12-AN fitting.








And some eye candy a friend sent me from an ND2002 Autoshow:

According to NORSK the ALH block is popular with the 16V guys


----------



## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Soooo,Here is my latest on the sump system, I recent got a Original Super Vee system and after taking a look @ it there were several differences and things that needed to be changed in order to use it with my 9a block.
#1 the crank case breather on the later blocks (16v) in particular is an issue when trying to use the adapter plate for and 8v So I took some measurement and then had a plate welded to the original adapter and had it milled to block off the open space. As seen below.








#2 I took the original 8v intermediate shaft and had it turned down and notched to work with a 16v intermediate sprocket,i also chopped off the oil pump gear to minimize the weight after weighing the new shaft it is just a little bit lighter them my previous shaft with distributor gear.








Here is a internal pic of the single stage pump mounted up to the adapter with the shaft installed as you can see it's a perfect fit and every thing turns very smoothly.








As for manufacturing these pieces i have not gotten around to it yet I want to use this set up on my car first to be sure it's going to do the job fine when I get some more info I will update you all.









_Modified by X K R O M X at 9:00 AM 6-19-2006_


_Modified by X K R O M X at 9:01 AM 6-19-2006_


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (X K R O M X)*


_Quote, originally posted by *X K R O M X* »_#1 the crank case breather on the later blocks (16v) in particular is an issue when trying to use the adapter plate for and 8v So I took some measurement and then had a plate welded to the original adapter and had it milled to block off the open space. As seen below.


Thats really interesting considering the only difference between the early and late blocks was the top bolt on the oil filter flange.Seems yours was allready adapted for the 9A/ABA blocks.


----------



## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

That is because I rule HARD.


----------



## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

I made what was nessasary to use this on a 16v bottom end,sooooo I Rule hard.


----------



## sciroccoR (Dec 23, 2003)

*Re: (X K R O M X)*


_Quote, originally posted by *X K R O M X* »_I made what was nessasary to use this on a 16v bottom end,sooooo I Rule hard.









man, you ARE A RIOT!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
keep it up, bro! oder, bruder


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (X K R O M X)*


_Quote, originally posted by *X K R O M X* »_sooooo I Rule hard.









Ok well you win!
Here is an update of Jarod's progress.He is even using an Xtrac 216 model Gearbox...








Jarod all you need now is a European S8/A8 valve cover...









_Quote, originally posted by *X K R O M X* »_as for now this weekend I mounted up the X and the dry sump and some existing hard ware.and i thought you would like to see what a real Transmission look like.....








#1 here is the tranny mounted to the rear of the long block( that is what a real differential looks like,also notice how large the ring gear is) as you can see the output shaft for the axle sits considerably higher then the stock location,thus calling for the needed rotation of the motor reward at a35* angle. 








#2 Here is picture of the front(technically the side of the motor) with the dry sump and ITB in place,Believe it or not there is still plenty of room to use the stock 16v non Ac alternator set up with factory alternator and a stock water pump,However I will be running a smaller racing alternator mounted on the rear of the engine below the differential and driven off of the passengers side cv joint, For the water pump I will be running an electric unit I have already made the adapter bracket to mount to the motor. In the event I really want to get this car going sooner I will use the stock components.








#3 Third and finally here is another shot of the tranny mounted to the rear of the engine as you can see the box dwarfs the motor as a whole!!!!






























As promised hear are some shots of the motor and the tranny sitting in it's respected position in the car,I am working on the mounts now.
ENJOY!!!!
























So now you see how far the motor is tilted back...


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Yes he is


----------



## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: (Fast929)*

I'm taking offers before Ebay!!


----------



## Thijs99 (Dec 24, 2006)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*

Hi there,
I've got a question:
How do you've connected your Crankcase ventilation?
because you've to remove the original unit from your engine, you've only got one 'hole'.
I've bought a Dry sump setup from 'Titan', the place of the pump looks like yours, So i'm very intrested.
Do you've also got an extra Vent. on your Valve cover or don't you need that?
Thijs


----------



## NORSK (Feb 26, 2006)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Thijs99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Thijs99* »_Hi there,
I've got a question:
How do you've connected your Crankcase ventilation?
because you've to remove the original unit from your engine, you've only got one 'hole'.
I've bought a Dry sump setup from 'Titan', the place of the pump looks like yours, So i'm very intrested.
Do you've also got an extra Vent. on your Valve cover or don't you need that?
Thijs

A dry sump system must be vented through the oil tank,not directly of the crankcase.


----------



## Thijs99 (Dec 24, 2006)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (NORSK)*

Okay, I didn't know that, but how can I Plug that round hole of the original crankcase vent? A plug, and a lot of loctite? Or welt it in?


----------



## NORSK (Feb 26, 2006)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Thijs99)*

You can use a freeze plug to block the big hole in the crankcase.
And a small oil plug to block the dipstick hole


----------



## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (NORSK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NORSK* »_You can use a freeze plug to block the big hole in the crankcase.
And a small oil plug to block the dipstick hole

NORSK Is correct,I had not seen this thread in a while,I used an SAE freeze plug on the distributor hole and the breather hole.
Here are some more pictures of the engine with the gear box finally in the car with it's new mounts!


----------



## PADILLA (Sep 26, 2000)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (X K R O M X)*

Looking good Jarod http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (PADILLA)*



PADILLA said:


> Looking good Jarod http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (X K R O M X)*

Jarod what COP's are those?Any technical specs?


----------



## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_Jarod what COP's are those?Any technical specs?

COP's? Long Beach police Department I suppose?
What do you mean?








I get it They are Coil On Plugs from a Hyabusa......Dahhhh.


----------



## Freerevving (Sep 29, 2003)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (X K R O M X)*

Well there's a cop I might like


----------



## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*

beats me man,I have several sets there are some that are longer then others(from earlier bikes) which require a smaller spacer on top of the plug,but either way you have to make an adapter you will also need a SAS that is configured to fire them so check with you System manufacturer to assure you are not wasting time or money,and lastly you will need to modify your valve cover to get the seals to fit correctly.have fun.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (X K R O M X)*

More:



(click for larger image)


----------



## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*

looks good.


----------



## sciroccoR (Dec 23, 2003)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (X K R O M X)*


_Quote, originally posted by *X K R O M X* »_looks good.
 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
thanks. i can't wait to put it in the effing chassis.


----------



## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Updates Jarod?

Yes,I have been @ the Race track the last two weekend's and have not had time to look at my car.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*New pan is home!*

Well Jarod is going to be super pissed but yes I am back in the dry sump game after recently purchasing this:


This is the oil pan I had initially wanted but found it extremely difficult to source.Over the 2 years that I had been researching this project I found that ~ 4 different style oil pans were made for the VW Supervee car.Some pans had a single pick up,some had dual pick ups (like the one above),some had 3 pick ups (see page 1).
Now this time around I have decided to go with a Moroso 3-Stage Oil pump and the intended out come should be very similar to the image below:

Now I have been asked via pm _why_ I decided to sell off the supervee set up.Well the choice was made based on the following:
*1.* The Supervee/Brabham/Cosworth/etc oil pump is a single stage pump which works pretty well for a NA engine but for a FI engine you need more scavange.To turn the Supervee pump from single stage scavenge to double stage would have required me to make a custom centre shaft (longer @ ~$150US).Now the cost involved for (2) oil pump + $150US pretty much surpassed a decent second hand 3-stage oil pump so that ruled out the use of the supervee pump.
*2.* No IM shaft.Seeing that I am using 034EFi Stage IIc for the engine,I have no need for the IM shaft or distributor (even if the distributor was used for hall).
The only thing left to fabricate in this project is a block off for the IM shaft inlet + dummy gear.The dry sump pump drive will be sourched from [email protected] who is having a custom run done.
Some Images of the dry sump system for the 06A block:


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: New pan is home! (Wizard-of-OD)*

A buddy of mine is going to be clean out his shop, I know he's got at least 2 or 3 VW drive sump pans, dry sump tanks and other related goodies, all that stuff is going to be up for grabs soon. When it is, I could post up pictures and descriptions of the stuff, if anyone's interested.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: New pan is home! (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_A buddy of mine is going to be clean out his shop, I know he's got at least 2 or 3 VW drive sump pans, dry sump tanks and other related goodies, all that stuff is going to be up for grabs soon. When it is, I could post up pictures and descriptions of the stuff, if anyone's interested.

Sure,I get people asking me all the time to build them kits or even to provide them with parts.I would be interested in at least 1 of the pans and I am sure Jarod would be interested in the other.
Just Let me know when your ready.


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: New pan is home! (Wizard-of-OD)*

Alright then, I'll keep you posted.


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: New pan is home! (Wizard-of-OD)*

I'll send you an update next week.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*

Well just when I thought I had seen every possible dry sump oil pan made for the 058 block,another one shows up.This time around in the form of magnesium.It was interesting to note that the magnesium pan had a VR pickup @ both the rear & the front of the oil pan.
From left to right: Super-Vee Magnesium Oil pan (single pick up),Super-Vee Aluminum Oil Pan (double pick up),RT5 Aluminum Oil Pan (single pick up).

_(click image for larger resolution)_
























Now this is interesting as hell!


_Quote, originally posted by *SCCA GT-Lite Club Racer* »_
1600cc water cooled engine w/ dry sump 
TRE inline 5 speed transmission 
Piper Motorsport engine and trans mounts 
Piper Motorsport drive shaft hoops 
Piper Motorsport SS exhaust manifold and exhaust system 
Piper Motorsport air box 
ATL fuel cell mounted by Piper 
Stef's oil tank mounted by Piper


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

That is interesting as hell!
GT3 car?


----------



## MofoDan (Jul 6, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

It's a GT-Lite car judging by the GTL on the side and the single inlet restrictor.
GTL is what the SCCA calls the combination of GT4 and GT5. It's nice to see new cars being built for GTL. Not to hijack, but do you know who the builder is?
-Dan


_Modified by MofoDan at 6:30 PM 10-31-2007_


----------



## TehLonz (Oct 5, 2006)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (INA)*

160hp @ 8k


----------



## TehLonz (Oct 5, 2006)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (INA)*









I gotta find some info on those small displacment berg cup cars. Im sure they have nice numbers to throw down too.


----------



## Looney-Racing (Feb 7, 2008)

hello,
@wizzard: can you tell me, where i can buy a oil pan like your?
sorry for my bad english








ciao


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## Looney-Racing (Feb 7, 2008)

hi, what pick up can you recommend? until now i heard only about the dual pick up. 
bye


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: (Looney-Racing)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Looney-Racing* »_hi, what pick up can you recommend? until now i heard only about the dual pick up. 
bye

I recommend Dual Pick up.


----------



## Looney-Racing (Feb 7, 2008)

and where can i find the recommend parts for this dry sump kit, which fits in a 1,8t?
thx


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Looney-Racing)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Looney-Racing* »_and where can i find the recommend parts for this dry sump kit, which fits in a 1,8t?
thx

Pans are casted up for the 06A/06B blocks all now.Waiting for the window shoppers to say hi!


----------



## ens (Dec 14, 2006)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

aba 16v kit hi!


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: (ens)*

i bought one...will be here soon


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## ens (Dec 14, 2006)

*Re: (speed51133!)*

what setup?


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: (ens)*

aba 16v


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## ens (Dec 14, 2006)

*Re: (speed51133!)*

saving now


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## ens (Dec 14, 2006)

*Re: (ens)*

post pics when you get it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

i got some parts...waiting on some more....
pics will come...got a sweet engine put together, and sweet driveline.
issam, i need a breather block off with oring like you got.
hit me up.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*









So happy to be FINALLY DONE,kits are now available for all engines.


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## bdcoombs (Jul 28, 2002)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*

wow that is impressive http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (bdcoombs)*

i ordered mine...have some parts, awaiting others....in the middle of a aba16v build...


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## mad rallye (Apr 29, 2007)

Isaam
Can this set up be used on a daily driving or is pure track mate?
Nas


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## meventos (Jul 30, 2008)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

hey, somebody said they can get the IM gear for $ 19, can I get the info on the part # for the gear and where to get it from.
Thanks


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mad rallye* »_Isaam
Can this set up be used on a daily driving or is pure track mate?
Nas

Nas can be used on anything but why would you want a dry sump on a daily driver?Got a porsche?









_Quote, originally posted by *meventos* »_hey, somebody said they can get the IM gear for $ 19, can I get the info on the part # for the gear and where to get it from.
Thanks

The IM shaft gear you can get from an old Ford 1600 with the externally mounted oil pump.


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## gogogadget (Apr 14, 2007)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*

This was an awesome read


----------



## VAG_Lowrider (Jun 13, 2005)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_








So happy to be FINALLY DONE,kits are now available for all engines.

Im interested in this kit!!
Can you IM me?


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## diceman469 (Sep 3, 2003)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*

Wow, I wish I could run this.
If only for the ground clearance!


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (diceman469)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VAG_Lowrider* »_
Im interested in this kit!!
Can you IM me?

email me http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *diceman469* »_Wow, I wish I could run this.
If only for the ground clearance!

Dry sump is not for you then.


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## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
email me http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Dry sump is not for you then.

spoken like a true man,I know there was some reason to still like you Sam.........


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (X K R O M X)*


_Quote, originally posted by *X K R O M X* »_
spoken like a true man,I know there was some reason to still like you Sam.........

Not going to sell a dry sump kit to someone who wants to bottom out there VW.Simply raise the engine...


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Not going to sell a dry sump kit to someone who wants to bottom out there VW.Simply raise the engine...









So what about the guy that wants all the go-fast parts on a not-so-go-fast car?


----------



## diceman469 (Sep 3, 2003)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Not going to sell a dry sump kit to someone who wants to bottom out there VW.Simply raise the engine...









Couldn't use it anyway, I'd have to part with my power steering


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (diceman469)*


_Quote, originally posted by *diceman469* »_
Couldn't use it anyway, I'd have to part with my power steering









No you would not.


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## diceman469 (Sep 3, 2003)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
No you would not.

Really? Wow...I assumed...eh nevermind.
The more I post in this thread the stupider I feel...I think I'm done now


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (diceman469)*

You have a 16V Turbo so your excused
Boost > NA


----------



## skidplate (May 4, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_








So happy to be FINALLY DONE,kits are now available for all engines.








Oooohhh Me likey.


----------



## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_








So happy to be FINALLY DONE,kits are now available for all engines.

Hey sam are you intending to run at least one of those cog pulleys with a guide lips to prevent the belt from walking ,Loss of oil pressure can lead to well you know.








`Jarod.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (X K R O M X)*


_Quote, originally posted by *X K R O M X* »_
Hey sam are you intending to run at least one of those cog pulleys with a guide lips to prevent the belt from walking ,Loss of oil pressure can lead to well you know.








`Jarod.

Jarod the kits I sell have larger washers over the crankshaft cog to prevent the belt from walking off the gear.You can see in my design that the pump can move in and out to adjust belt [email protected] told me that the belt should be slip on,not tensioned so I did a 1 up


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Wizard-of-OD)*

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=5
BUMP for ALL MOTOR forum


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## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

nice work Issam. I should live in your town.,


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## Craige-O (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (frankthewelder)*

Price on system please:
[email protected]


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## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

someone needs to pick this up
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...sting
issam?
scooter racing is selling it


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (Craige-O)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Craige-O* »_Price on system please:
[email protected]

Emailed...no reply

_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_someone needs to pick this up
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...sting
issam?
scooter racing is selling it 

Good price wow








Do you guys think I should leave this thread here or move it to the NA motor forum?


----------



## mcdub (Jun 19, 2005)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Emailed...no reply
Good price wow








Do you guys think I should leave this thread here or move it to the NA motor forum?

wow I would buy that.


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## VAG_Lowrider (Jun 13, 2005)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
Do you guys think I should leave this thread here or move it to the NA motor forum?

Leave it here... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## secondgen (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: (VAG_Lowrider)*

Move it. I http://****************.com/smile/emlove.gif the all motor forum.


----------



## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Issam Abed)*

ill have my car running with this setup soon.....its all installed already....just making final adjustments...
i actually was concerend with belt walking off, and put a larger washer on the crank cog to hole it on incase...


----------



## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (speed51133!)*

































its like 90% done. i can drive it and all, but i need to really "massage" the wiring and get it all routed nice and clean. I also need to make and put in a catch can for the tank.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (speed51133!)*

Looking good Mike!
Is that Jimmy's manifold?


----------



## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Issam Abed)*

jim sold me the unwelded parts. i welded it up, and also made the throttle body adapter.


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## robingohtt (Nov 6, 2005)

Issam,
can u list down what your dry sump kit consists of?
I am evaluating this kit - costs and coversion parts, etc..
and what do I need to remove, modify from my exisiting 1.8T block
for the benefit for everyone interested as well.
many thanks


----------



## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: (robingohtt)*

Issam did an awesome job with me, and helped hold my hand for many questions i had. totally reccomend him.
he can supply you with a turn key kit which is:
pan
tank
pump
totally custom bracket to mount pump
gimler pulley for crank
gimler for pump
belt
sandwich plate for oil filter
thats basically all the parts. all you need after that is the hoses and hose fittings. i would imagine he can supply you with that too, but that dictates where you mount the tank. i chose to be on my own for that so i could decide where to mount the tank. Issam mounted his in his trunk. I guess thats what road racers like to do for weight balance and for looks too, no tank in bay looks nice. I just wanted it all up in the engine bay. The tank you see in my pic is also something i found on my own.
Honestly, it got to be a bit of a pain to source parts from different people. Id reccomend getting it all from Issam, so he can steer you in the right direction when you have questions, becaus ehe knows your setup.
hope i diddnt step on your toes issam.
EDIT
Id like to add that I chose to eliminate the coolant sandwich plate oil cooler in my setup. I couldnt find hoses to bypass it so i just put plugs in the coolant lines. maybe issam can set you up with thoes too???
ALSO: i want to add i always had issues with my turbo getting backed up with oil and smoking. now with the dry sump, that does not happen. which is a plus.
_Modified by speed51133! at 8:49 AM 6-10-2009_


_Modified by speed51133! at 8:56 AM 6-10-2009_


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (robingohtt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *robingohtt* »_Issam,
can u list down what your dry sump kit consists of?
I am evaluating this kit - costs and coversion parts, etc..
and what do I need to remove, modify from my exisiting 1.8T block
for the benefit for everyone interested as well.
many thanks

Dry sump kit consists of:
* 3 Stage Oil pump
* Drive accessory for 06A crankshaft pulley
* Cogged gears for pump & drive
* cogged belt for pump drive
* Dry sump oil pan with 2 pick ups
* (2) solid stainless steel lines from pan to pump
* Bracket for oil pump for 06A application
* Adapter plate for oil filter housing
* Braided SS line from pump to oil filter housing
* Fittings and o-rings
* Moroso Oil resevoir
...etc


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## robingohtt (Nov 6, 2005)

thanks issam..
let my team mull over it..if the mid engine audi tt project materialises
yr kit allows the engine to be mounted lower without a stock pan height which is very important in race applications http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
and in mid engine config, allows better weight distribution
but then I have to get rid of your baffled oil pan..haha..but I am sure my workshop guys would love it! they have been drooling over it








speed51133!..any pics of yr setup? thanks mate!




_Modified by robingohtt at 11:41 AM 6-10-2009_


----------



## robingohtt (Nov 6, 2005)

can I ask what happened to the air-con condenser? yr pix doesnt show it
power steering seems to be there still
so is this a pure race application?


_Modified by robingohtt at 12:17 PM 6-10-2009_


----------



## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: (robingohtt)*

my pics are above. you cant really see thye pump and stuff.
if your asking me if i have p.s. and stuff, no. no power steering, no a/c. its a daily driver, but i just dont drive it daily.
jhaha


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (robingohtt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_
hope i diddnt step on your toes issam.

Not at all bro BUT you did post faster than me! check the times! I did not even realise until I checked it today









_Quote, originally posted by *robingohtt* »_can I ask what happened to the air-con condenser? yr pix doesnt show it
power steering seems to be there still
so is this a pure race application?

You want A/C and dry sump? Sell the TT and buy a 911








The 06A applications (which is what you have) allow for the use of power steering.A/C is the only component that needs to be deleted but then again most people put these on race cars,not daily drivers..


----------



## robingohtt (Nov 6, 2005)

wait 911 comes with aircon, right..haha..last I checked with my brother's car..
: )
yeah..I am slowly realizing why the 911 costs so much - dry sump is like standard
http://www.caranddriver.com/re...ature
the aston martin has a dry sump and a A/C..BTW,,road model Vantage V-8
http://www.astonmartin.com/eng...13c9f 
reason I am asking is because the mid engine project is a feasibility project. we are thinking of creating a new mid engine car. For race and for daily..base on the 1.8T..so we need to lower it at the back position so yr dry sump helps a lot. 
so do you reckon it can be done? AC and dry sump? 
It's gonna look horrid with extra belts and brackets, I know...haha


_Modified by robingohtt at 2:59 AM 6-11-2009_


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (robingohtt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *robingohtt* »_
so do you reckon it can be done? AC and dry sump? 
It's gonna look horrid with extra belts and brackets

Well if you create more room infront of the engine I can basically build a bracket to hold the pump right infront the AC compressor.


----------



## thepaintcanman (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*

want


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (thepaintcanman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *thepaintcanman* »_want

call a brother!


----------



## thepaintcanman (Feb 26, 2009)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*

i have the us number is sitll canada


----------



## ugli.glx (Dec 12, 2008)

Hi, Im here for the party


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (ugli.glx)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ugli.glx* »_Hi, Im here for the party

All are invited


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*FV-QR*

interested in a kit for a carb'd 16v.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Digital K.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Digital K.* »_interested in a kit for a carb'd 16v.

What accessories?


----------



## sciroccoR (Dec 23, 2003)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (Issam Abed)*

this is THAT old???


----------



## pileofredparts (Mar 20, 2009)

*Re: **Dry Sump System** (sciroccoR)*

PM me a price please


----------



## vento3883 (Nov 2, 2002)

price please, also, how do you lower the entire engine/tranny setup?


----------



## m_eventos (Nov 9, 2007)

*Re: (Issam Abed)*

I have a 16v (9A) with dual weber 48mm, single belt running water pump and alternator and also a 034 motorsports crank trigger for my electromotive ignition. do you have a dry sump for this setup and how much?
[email protected]


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (m_eventos)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sciroccoR* »_this is THAT old???

HI!!!!
Whats your new digits Doc.We need to speak









_Quote, originally posted by *vento3883* »_price please, also, how do you lower the entire engine/tranny setup? 

it is best to email me to get an accurate quote based on your configuration. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *m_eventos* »_I have a 16v (9A) with dual weber 48mm, single belt running water pump and alternator and also a 034 motorsports crank trigger for my electromotive ignition. do you have a dry sump for this setup and how much?
[email protected]

emailed http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## mudanddust (Oct 24, 2007)

x2


----------



## Scirocco53 (Mar 9, 2002)

you have any pumps that you have no use for?


----------



## Jetmugg (Nov 6, 2011)

I'm interested in running a dry sump setup on my VW diesel engine (Yes, diesel). It's a 1.6 Turbodiesel hydraulic block, with 1.5L rotating assembly, and a 1.9L AAZ cylinder head. Garret GT2056 turbo. I'm making 167 HP right now. This is for a land speed racing application (H/DT class at Bonneville).

I just ran at The Ohio Mile, where I am the current recordholder. I ran into some loss of oil pressure at high rpm's, I believe due to oil starvation.

Getting the vehicle as close to the ground as possible is important for aerodynamics. Right now, even using the early 3qt oil pan, the pan is the limiting factor to going lower.

I'm running a "low mount" alternator setup from a non-A/C VW Rabbit application...










This photo does not show the actual Bosch alternator, just a GM alternator that I was using for mockup.

I have also ditched the factory crank v-belt pulley in favor of a Lella autosports smaller diameter pulley.

I'm trying to brainstorm if there is enough room under the existing alternator for a dry sump pump, or if I should consider other mounting options. 

Since I have gutted the factory vacuum pump, that seems like a decent place to drive a dry sump pump, but it seems like no one ever came up with a solution that works from that location.

I'd also be interested in any of those "wall art" older dry sump tanks, even if just for mocking up and trial fitment purposes.

Just trying to kick-start a brainstorming session.

Steve.


----------



## Jetmugg (Nov 6, 2011)

I suppose that I could ditch the alternator entirely (I'm mainly using it to tension the water pump belt), and figure out a mounting system to put the oil pump in place of the alternator.... hmmmmm.

Some custom made pullies to drive the gilmer belt, and it just might work...


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Scirocco53 said:


> you have any pumps that you have no use for?


Ha! Why not come and see what I have no use for 
That being said all sold. 


Jetmugg said:


> I'm interested in running a dry sump setup on my VW diesel engine (Yes, diesel). It's a 1.6 Turbodiesel hydraulic block, with 1.5L rotating assembly, and a 1.9L AAZ cylinder head. Garret GT2056 turbo. I'm making 167 HP right now. This is for a land speed racing application (H/DT class at Bonneville).
> 
> I just ran at The Ohio Mile, where I am the current recordholder. I ran into some loss of oil pressure at high rpm's, I believe due to oil starvation.
> 
> ...


Hi Steve,
If it was me , I would source an AFN bracket which would allow you to use the ABA dry sump kit currently on the market. I would be more afraid that the spline gear to turn the vaccuum pump would snap like a twig trying to rotate a 3 stage pump. Is this in a MK1 caddy?


----------



## Jetmugg (Nov 6, 2011)

It's actually a Dodge Rampage- very similar to a caddy. Posting from my phone now - I'll post more in the morning.


----------



## Jetmugg (Nov 6, 2011)

A couple of pics....










On a little test drive around the neighborhood.










Parked on the street.

I just ran at The Ohio Mile last weekend. A friend took a bunch of pics, but hasn't shared them yet.

Steve.


----------



## Jetmugg (Nov 6, 2011)

Issam Abed said:


> Ha! Why not come and see what I have no use for
> That being said all sold.
> 
> Hi Steve,
> If it was me , I would source an AFN bracket which would allow you to use the ABA dry sump kit currently on the market. I would be more afraid that the spline gear to turn the vaccuum pump would snap like a twig trying to rotate a 3 stage pump. Is this in a MK1 caddy?


I'm trying to get up to speed on the parts and designations. Is this the AFN bracket that you are talking about?











In the grand scheme, I don't really need an alternator. I can run a deep cycle battery, which is only used to circulate the intercooler water one the truck is ready to compete.


Steve.


----------

