# 2017 vw gli oil reccomandation



## Badazstryker (Feb 23, 2017)

Hey Guys
I Know this answer might be tucked away in this forum somewhere but I cant seem to find it so I'm just going to ask it. I have a 2017 Jetta GLI, Sick and tired of taking it to the dealer and paying a ton of $$$$$ for a simple oil change. That being said..I know VW recommends Castrol but, can anyone tell me of a cheaper alternative? Any and all comments are appreciated !


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## avs (May 23, 2012)

Mobil 1 0w40. 5 qts jug is currently 22.88 at Walmart and also there’s a $12 rebate available thru Mobil. https://mobiloil.com/en/promotion/mobil-promotions/17-off-motor-oil-may-2018


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## amurdock23 (May 7, 2018)

*Cost*

We almost switched from Castrol to Valvoline, I know some places have just because the price is lower. The most important factor is that the oil matches the compliance required by Volkswagen (501,502,504, etc...).


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## Thy_Harrowing (Dec 7, 2014)

As said above, if you're looking for bang for your buck than M1 0W40 is all you should even consider. There is NOT a better oil for your 502.00 spec VW for that price point. There are better oils but they are more expensive and not all that much better. I've run at least a half dozen of the best group IV (if that means anything to you), full synthetic oils several times each through my VW, with lab oil analyses for each run, and my choice after all of that is Liquimoly Leichtlauf 5W40 (about $35 for 5L on Amazon). However, the M1 0W40 performs fairly close to as well and is cheaper. I don't try to save money on oil with my car, personally, because if there is one thing you want to NOT cheap out on it is the oil you use and changing it at a proper interval, but if you want to save money and not risk anything with your car then get the M1, period. Make sure you get ONLY an OEM Mann oil filter or you WILL have oil pressure issues and you WILL shorten the life of your motor, guaranteed. There are hundreds of people who've used the Fram or whatever other aftermarket filters for only a few oil changes and that's all it took to spell disaster.

One last note: While M1 0W40 is an excellent oil it has a tendency to sheer faster than most other full synthetics. There are additive packages in the oil that are responsible for protecting your engine and reducing wear as much as possible, as well as detergents to keep the engine clean, and "sheering" refers to them being broken down and becoming less effective. When the additives start to shear the oil is no longer performing as well as it should in your engine and this will increase wear and decrease engine life. I always recommend that people completely ignore VWs B.S. 10K oil change interval nonsense in favor of 5-6K intervals because while the cars certainly CAN go 10K for changes that doesn't mean they SHOULD, the wear rate WILL increase between around 5K and 10K considerably as the additives deplete; however, I ESPECIALLY recommend sticking to the 5K OCI with M1 0W40 since it sheers faster than others and thus does not protect as well for as long. If you plan to take VW at their word (their modern marketing schemes to compete with the other manufacturers) and plan to do 10K OCIs then I DO NOT recommend M1 0W40 at all, I would recommend the Liquimoly Leichtlauf 5W40 since the additives that grant wear resistance/protection last quite a bit longer. If you were to run oil analyses on many kinds of oils and different mileages like I have you'd see that evidence clear as day. The Liquimoly I mentioned (part# 2332 on Amazon) is one of the only oils I'd recommend if you want to run 10K intervals.

This is all assuming you want to keep your pretty new car as long as you possibly can. If that is the case, then there is NOTHING more important than being wise about your oil and oil change interval choices. However, if you're the kind of person who just keeps a car for 3 or 4 years and moves on to the next thing then being a stickler on the options isn't really that important as long as it is a 502.00 spec oil.


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## dmelgar (Jul 10, 2002)

Since this a relatively new thread I thought I'd ask as well. I have a new 2017 Golf Wolfsburg. Have about 6000 miles on it. Have been planning to do oil change on the recommended 10k interval.

I bought but haven't opened yet Mobil 1 0w-40 from Walmart.

I used to own a 2002 TDI and was active on tdiclub. They seemed to do lots of oil analysis. I haven't found an equivalent set of information for non-TDI. Is there such a resource on VWVortex somewhere? Is there a FAQ summarizing results of oil analysis?

Looking on TDIClub, the most recent oil analysis I found seemed to indicate that Castrol did the worst, then Mobil 1 and LiquiMoly did the best.

Any opinions here?

Most other cars I've owned recently have been running lighter weight oil. I have a Dodge Grand Caravan with 190k miles running 0w-20 non-synthetic, changed every 3k miles and the engine hasn't had any issues so far. 

I used to use Mobil Delvac 1 in my 2002 TDI. I sold it at 80k miles, had 10k OCI and never had an issue with the engine.

I'm debating using the Mobil 1 0w-40 that I already have, or trying to find a lighter weight Castrol only because VW recommended them, such as a 0w-30 or 5w-30.

But after reading that analysis I'm now thinking maybe I'm better off getting the LiquiMoly 5w-30 for $35 at Amazon.


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## avs (May 23, 2012)

I’m going with 10k oil change interval with my gti, most of my mileage are highway and using m1 0W40 or whatever vw502/504 spec that’s on sale. Btw, m1 oil are currently on sale for 22.98 from Walmart and 12 rebate from Mobil.


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## Thy_Harrowing (Dec 7, 2014)

dmelgar said:


> Since this a relatively new thread I thought I'd ask as well. I have a new 2017 Golf Wolfsburg. Have about 6000 miles on it. Have been planning to do oil change on the recommended 10k interval.
> 
> I bought but haven't opened yet Mobil 1 0w-40 from Walmart.
> 
> ...


Literally the post above yours I pretty much tell you half of what you just asked about. As for the other half, just peruse Bob Is the Oil Guy (or BITOG for short) for all the info you need to know on oils and use Blackstone Labs for oil analysis, their site has explanations as to all the aspects and info you need to know for analysis results and what to look for. 

Read my comment above yours for info on considerations between M1 and Liquimoly, as well as the idea of doing 10K intervals. I recommend against 10K intervals, for reasons stated above, but if you insist on doing 10K intervals then I would NOT recommend M1 because it shears faster (also described in more detail in my post above yours). For 10K intervals I would highly recommend spending the extra $10-$12 for Liquimoly Leichtlauf 5W-40 (part# 2332 on Amazon).


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## dmelgar (Jul 10, 2002)

Thy_Harrowing said:


> Literally the post above yours I pretty much tell you half of what you just asked about. As for the other half, just peruse Bob Is the Oil Guy (or BITOG for short) for all the info you need to know on oils and use Blackstone Labs for oil analysis, their site has explanations as to all the aspects and info you need to know for analysis results and what to look for.
> 
> Read my comment above yours for info on considerations between M1 and Liquimoly, as well as the idea of doing 10K intervals. I recommend against 10K intervals, for reasons stated above, but if you insist on doing 10K intervals then I would NOT recommend M1 because it shears faster (also described in more detail in my post above yours). For 10K intervals I would highly recommend spending the extra $10-$12 for Liquimoly Leichtlauf 5W-40 (part# 2332 on Amazon).


Thanks. I had read your post.

The 5w-30 that I included a link to is the same oil that you recommend except different viscosity. Any opinion on 5w-30 vs 5w-40?

I just looked on the BITOG site and the first thread I find talking about European Oils is a bunch of folks saying to use Mobil 1 and skip LiquiMoly. Making fun of anything that says its made in Germany, thats its a marketing gimmick and doesn't really make a difference.

What did you think about the oil analysis I linked to in the previous post? It has an expected column where only LiquiMoly had acceptable characteristics at the end of the oil change interval.


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## Thy_Harrowing (Dec 7, 2014)

dmelgar said:


> Thanks. I had read your post.
> 
> The 5w-30 that I included a link to is the same oil that you recommend except different viscosity. Any opinion on 5w-30 vs 5w-40?



I have not used the 5W-30 personally and, as such, I do not have any oil analyses to compare it to any of the other oils I have run. That being said, I do believe I recall reading about LM oils on BITOG and that there are, as one might expect, several different lines of Liquimoly oils, all fully synthetic but not all created equal. The leichtlauf is the highest quality line with the best additive packages and anti-wear properties so if it doesn't say leichtlauf then it is probably one their other more generic lines like the "special tech" line and is inferior. Only inferior by comparison to the leichtlauf, mind you, still better than many other full synthetics on the market like dealer recommended Castrol, etc. Now if this 5W-30 you are talking about is a leichtlauf 5W-30 and has the same additive packages then it would make fairly little difference which you choose and since VW specifies either 5W30 or 5W40 either is completely safe. Based on my long-term personal experience, as well as many, many other knowledgeable VW enthusiasts on these forums and on BITOG (which is basically the Holy Oil Bible) who all have come to the same conclusions on the leichtlauf 5W40, I would certainly lean towards recommending it just because I KNOW it is excellent first-hand.

Now, if that simple answer isn't satisfactory, we can split hairs. Again, if that 5W-30 is a leichtlauf line and has the same additive packages then it makes fairly little difference which you choose EXCEPT that if we are splitting hairs then the climate where you live and the way you drive can come into play. If you live in an area that is pretty cold year round then the 5W30 would be a better choice. However, if you live in an area where it is pretty mild or warm for a majority of the year than the 5W40 is more ideal. Likewise, if you are a spirited driver and push your car (brings internal temps up) the 5W40 would have the edge.



Edit: How long do you intend to keep this vehicle? Do you intend to keep it for the long haul and try to squeeze as many miles out of it as you can? If so I really, really would recommend you reconsider doing 10K intervals. I know I only got into it a bit in my original post, I can go into more detail as to why I recommend against those 10K intervals if you wish. If you are only planning to use the car for several years and then sell when it starts getting more expensive to maintain, however, then 10K intervals should be fine AS LONG AS you run the Leichtlauf. PLEASE do not run M1 if you do 10K intervals. I am a huge advocate of the M1 0W-40 also, I always recommend it to people looking for the best bang for their buck, but NEVER if they want to do 10K intervals. It's additives deplete and just won't protect as well that long. For $10 more the Leichtlauf is the obvious choice.


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## dmelgar (Jul 10, 2002)

Thy_Harrowing said:


> Edit: How long do you intend to keep this vehicle? Do you intend to keep it for the long haul and try to squeeze as many miles out of it as you can? If so I really, really would recommend you reconsider doing 10K intervals. I know I only got into it a bit in my original post, I can go into more detail as to why I recommend against those 10K intervals if you wish. If you are only planning to use the car for several years and then sell when it starts getting more expensive to maintain, however, then 10K intervals should be fine AS LONG AS you run the Leichtlauf. PLEASE do not run M1 if you do 10K intervals. I am a huge advocate of the M1 0W-40 also, I always recommend it to people looking for the best bang for their buck, but NEVER if they want to do 10K intervals. It's additives deplete and just won't protect as well that long. For $10 more the Leichtlauf is the obvious choice.


Ok, thanks.
In case you couldn't see the links in the earlier post.
The oil analysis from TDIClub: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=5398199&postcount=3467
LiquiMoly 5w-30 on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Liqui-Moly-Special-5W-30-2249/dp/B003FMGSZQ/


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## Thy_Harrowing (Dec 7, 2014)

dmelgar said:


> Ok, thanks.
> In case you couldn't see the links in the earlier post.
> The oil analysis from TDIClub: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=5398199&postcount=3467
> LiquiMoly 5w-30 on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Liqui-Moly-Special-5W-30-2249/dp/B003FMGSZQ/



NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Don't use that that line of LM. That is NOT a fully synthetic. This is exactly what I was talking about above with there being lots of different lines of oils from all different manufacturers and needing to be careful because they aren't all equal. Any time you see "synthese" or any other attempt at implying synthetic without actually straight up saying "fully synthetic" it is NOT synthetic. Companies will play around with the wording all day long to make it tricky but legally they can't say "synthetic" unless it is in fact "fully synthetic" or if they qualify it by saying "semi-synthetic". That oil you have there is a "semi-synthetic" which means it is a half-synthetic/half-conventional blend. It in no way, shape, or form can compare to the oil I recommended to you, the Leichtlauf 5W-40 (link below). That semi-synthetic should never be put in your vehicle, VW specifies ONLY fully synthetic oils. You should switch immediately. A semi-synthetic is NOT at all suitable for 10K intervals.

I would have told you this sooner if I had seen your links. My eyes aren't the best anymore and I missed that you put the links in the text itself in your first post.

Use this and never look back: https://www.amazon.com/Liqui-Moly-2332-Leichtlauf-Engine/dp/B00LIC29H6


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## dmelgar (Jul 10, 2002)

Thy_Harrowing said:


> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Don't use that that line of LM. That is NOT a fully synthetic. This is exactly what I was talking about above with there being lots of different lines of oils from all different manufacturers and needing to be careful because they aren't all equal. Any time you see "synthese" or any other attempt at implying synthetic without actually straight up saying "fully synthetic" it is NOT synthetic. Companies will play around with the wording all day long to make it tricky but legally they can't say "synthetic" unless it is in fact "fully synthetic" or if they qualify it by saying "semi-synthetic". That oil you have there is a "semi-synthetic" which means it is a half-synthetic/half-conventional blend. It in no way, shape, or form can compare to the oil I recommended to you, the Leichtlauf 5W-40 (link below). That semi-synthetic should never be put in your vehicle, VW specifies ONLY fully synthetic oils. You should switch immediately. A semi-synthetic is NOT at all suitable for 10K intervals.
> 
> I would have told you this sooner if I had seen your links. My eyes aren't the best anymore and I missed that you put the links in the text itself in your first post.
> 
> Use this and never look back: https://www.amazon.com/Liqui-Moly-2332-Leichtlauf-Engine/dp/B00LIC29H6


I have no idea what you think you saw. The description says:
"Liqui Moly's Leichtlauf Special LL 5W-30 is a modern multi-purpose low-friction motor oil developed according to the latest technology. "

It complies with:
ACEA A3
ACEA B4
API SL
API CF
BMW Longlife-01
MB-Freigabe 229.5
VW 502 00
VW 505 00


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## Thy_Harrowing (Dec 7, 2014)

dmelgar said:


> I have no idea what you think you saw. The description says:
> "Liqui Moly's Leichtlauf Special LL 5W-30 is a modern multi-purpose low-friction motor oil developed according to the latest technology. "
> 
> It complies with:
> ...



Yeah, and tell me where in that sentence did you see "fully synthetic"? Where on the bottle do you see "fully synthetic"? You don't, because it is not. You need to educate yourself on oils and the laws behind branding for oils in Germany. If you don't wanna trust me then feel free. I've told you the facts, you can do with them what you will.


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## dmelgar (Jul 10, 2002)

Thy_Harrowing said:


> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Don't use that that line of LM. That is NOT a fully synthetic. This is exactly what I was talking about above with there being lots of different lines of oils from all different manufacturers and needing to be careful because they aren't all equal. Any time you see "synthese" or any other attempt at implying synthetic without actually straight up saying "fully synthetic" it is NOT synthetic. Companies will play around with the wording all day long to make it tricky but legally they can't say "synthetic" unless it is in fact "fully synthetic" or if they qualify it by saying "semi-synthetic". That oil you have there is a "semi-synthetic" which means it is a half-synthetic/half-conventional blend. It in no way, shape, or form can compare to the oil I recommended to you, the Leichtlauf 5W-40 (link below). That semi-synthetic should never be put in your vehicle, VW specifies ONLY fully synthetic oils. You should switch immediately. A semi-synthetic is NOT at all suitable for 10K intervals.
> 
> I would have told you this sooner if I had seen your links. My eyes aren't the best anymore and I missed that you put the links in the text itself in your first post.
> 
> Use this and never look back: https://www.amazon.com/Liqui-Moly-2332-Leichtlauf-Engine/dp/B00LIC29H6


Ok. This is confusing. 
If you're worried about "synthese", I've found an image of the oil you like with the label sayings its a "synthese technology". https://products.liqui-moly.com/leichtlauf-high-tech-5w-40-5.html#product-media-modal

Its also found a image on the liquipoly site that shows the oil I was linking to as "full synthetic". Go figure. You have to zoom into the image to see it say "full synthetic". https://products.liqui-moly.us/oils/special-tec-ll-sae-5w-30-1.html

Meanwhile, I can get to a page listing 4 5w-30 oils that are all synthetic for similar prices and LiquiMoly doesn't describe how they're different. 
https://products.liqui-moly.us/oils...1497&cat=597&oil_type_usa=3904&viscosity=2796


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## dmelgar (Jul 10, 2002)

Thy_Harrowing said:


> VW specifies ONLY fully synthetic oils.


This is not correct. VW goes out of its way NOT to state that it must be fully synthetic. The only thing they REQUIRE is 502, 503, or 504 compliance. They say the only currently available oils which meet those standards are synthetic.

Here's the quote from the manual, formatting edited because its in a table:

Engine oil specification
Gasoline engines
VW 502 00 VW 503 00 VW 504 00

At the time this Manual was printed, the engine oils available in the U.S. that meet these Volkswagen standards are “synthetic” oils. This does not mean, however, that any “synthetic” engine oil will meet Volkswagen standards. Always use an approved oil that expressly complies with the Volkswagen oil quality standard that applies to your vehicle's engine.​


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## Thy_Harrowing (Dec 7, 2014)

> Ok. This is confusing.
> If you're worried about "synthese", I've found an image of the oil you like with the label sayings its a "synthese technology". https://products.liqui-moly.com/leic...ct-media-modal
> 
> Its also found a image on the liquipoly site that shows the oil I was linking to as "full synthetic". Go figure. You have to zoom into the image to see it say "full synthetic". https://products.liqui-moly.us/oils/...e-5w-30-1.html
> ...


Yes it is confusing, because there are so many different lines of oil these companies carry. It's not by accident, I suspect it is somewhat intentional just like the misleading wording like "synthese" and such is intentional. The purple leichtlauf bottle is a different formula ("synthese"/semi-synthetic) and is NOT the same as the one I linked you too which is the blue Leichtlauf and is fully synthetic as stated on the bottle. Bottom line: if it says fully synthetic it IS, and if it says anything OTHER THAN "fully synthetic" it IS NOT. While the particulars of this line of oil and that line of oil can be confusing, if you go by that bottom line rule of "fully synthetic" vs "anything else" then it is simple enough. 

I see the 5W30 bottle you linked to on their site says fully synthetic. But the one you linked to on Amazon did not. Again, bottom line: pick one that says "fully synthetic" and meets the 502.00 spec and you'll be fine. I personally vouch for the blue bottle leichtlauf 5W40 (part# 2332 on amazon) based on lots of experience and oil analysis. And unless you live in a cold climate year-round you should technically use it over a 5W30 fully synthetic anyway b/c the 5W40 will be slightly better suited viscosity for warmer temps.






dmelgar said:


> This is not correct. VW goes out of its way NOT to state that it must be fully synthetic. The only thing they REQUIRE is 502, 503, or 504 compliance. They say the only currently available oils which meet those standards are synthetic.
> 
> Here's the quote from the manual, formatting edited because its in a table:
> 
> ...


Off the top of my head, I thought that VW 502.00 spec only allowed for fully synthetic oils. If that is what the manual states then you're correct that VW does NOT ONLY specify fully synthetic oils. It would seem that a select few semi-synthetic oils are allowed to meet the VW 502.00 spec, which is very sad indeed. That explains why your semi-synthetic LM 5W-30 is allowed to bear the 502.00 specification, which was a little odd to me before you showed me the manual quote.

HOWEVER, everything else I have stated is a fact. That LM "Special Tech" 5W30 w/ "synthese" technology is a SEMI-synthetic NOT a fully synthetic and it is NOT suitable for 10K oil intervals for reasons I have already stated. While my memory on what VW allowed to meet their specification was shaky (I guess I was giving VW too much credit for their standards), everything else I have explained about how branding and naming conventions of these oils work, how/why fully synthetics are superior to semi-synthetics, and why you should never use a semi-synthetic (or even a fully synthetic that shears quickly like M1 0W-40) if you want to do 10K oil intervals without increasing wear significantly, is all true and factual. Bottom line: You want to go 10K intervals and keep your car as long as possible, with a motor in as good as shape as possible, get the Leichtlauf oil I linked to you. End of story. I wish you the best of luck with your VW ownership, hope all goes well and you enjoy it. Feel free to PM with any questions any time.


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## dmelgar (Jul 10, 2002)

Ok, how about this one. Liqui Moly 2039 Longtime High Tech 5W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil - 5 Liter Jug https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005H28X46/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_BVDaBbHWDWGVE

Says full synthetic. 502. But it’s BMW LL04 instead of LL01. I don’t know what that means yet.


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## Thy_Harrowing (Dec 7, 2014)

dmelgar said:


> Ok, how about this one. Liqui Moly 2039 Longtime High Tech 5W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil - 5 Liter Jug https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005H28X46/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_BVDaBbHWDWGVE
> 
> Says full synthetic. 502. But it’s BMW LL04 instead of LL01. I don’t know what that means yet.



Looks good. I haven't had any personal experience with it so I can't vouch for it but I'm sure it is totally fine just by virtue of the fact that it meets the 502 spec and is actually labeled "fully synthetic". Those are the most important factors. Otherwise, I assume since it is called "longtime" it is meant for extended oil change intervals so that is a plus too. So I'd say go for it if you want. That or the dark blue bottle leichtlauf fully synthetic I linked you too on Amazon (part# 2332). Go for either of them based on what you want to spend or whether you want 5w30 vs 5w40. Is there any particular reason you are leaning towards 5w30? Is it the climate you live in?


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## dmelgar (Jul 10, 2002)

Thy_Harrowing said:


> Looks good. I haven't had any personal experience with it so I can't vouch for it but I'm sure it is totally fine just by virtue of the fact that it meets the 502 spec and is actually labeled "fully synthetic". Those are the most important factors. Otherwise, I assume since it is called "longtime" it is meant for extended oil change intervals so that is a plus too. So I'd say go for it if you want. That or the dark blue bottle leichtlauf fully synthetic I linked you too on Amazon (part# 2332). Go for either of them based on what you want to spend or whether you want 5w30 vs 5w40. Is there any particular reason you are leaning towards 5w30? Is it the climate you live in?


Ok, I'm leaning against the long life one that I found. It does not have BMW and MB certifications for use with US gasoline. It is LL04 not LL01, it is MB 229.51 not 229.5. BMW goes out of their way to say you cannot use LL04 oil with US gasoline.

I tried to find some used oil analysis reports. I did find a report for LiquiMoly 2332 with relatively high OCI that was still in great shape, so that speaks very well for it.
I've found multiple reports that are not favorable for Mobil 1 0w-40 especially as approaching 5k miles. It seems to break down and lose viscosity. It has lost BMW LL01 rating which isn't a good sign in my book.

BMW also recommends Castrol. I'm now investigating Castrol Edge A3/B4 0w-30. It is rated 502, BMW LL01, MB 229.5. I haven't been able to find an UOA for this specific viscosity, but Castrol in general has done ok in some reports. Castrol describes it as a full synthetic.

I lean towards a lighter weight oil for better fuel efficiency. I have a 190k mile Dodge Grand Caravan thats run 5w-20 non-synthetic all its life and is doing fine. I traded in a Mini Cooper running 0w-20 synthetic. It didn't consume a drop of oil the whole time I owned it.

I've seen written reports from BMW and a video explanation from a LiquiMoly representative that state that climate has little to not effect on viscosity selection with modern especially synthetic oils. You can run 0w-30 in hot climate just fine. The engine cooling systems are designed to run the engine to operating temperature regardless of outside weather.

I'm also considering doing UOA between oil changes for both the current oil and whatever I use when I change the oil. I can keep better tabs and make an more informed decision on when its best to change it.


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## Thy_Harrowing (Dec 7, 2014)

dmelgar said:


> Ok, I'm leaning against the long life one that I found. It does not have BMW and MB certifications for use with US gasoline. It is LL04 not LL01, it is MB 229.51 not 229.5. BMW goes out of their way to say you cannot use LL04 oil with US gasoline.


Okay then that “longlife” oil is probably more applicable to diesels which have special particulate filters. If it lost those certs from BMW and MB for gasoline then steer clear just to be safe. 



> I tried to find some used oil analysis reports. I did find a report for LiquiMoly 2332 with relatively high OCI that was still in great shape, so that speaks very well for it.
> I've found multiple reports that are not favorable for Mobil 1 0w-40 especially as approaching 5k miles. It seems to break down and lose viscosity. It has lost BMW LL01 rating which isn't a good sign in my book.


Are you just repeating what I already said about LM 2332 and M1 as a clarification? Or did you not read my posts closely enough to see that I already told you in my very first reply to you about what you just pulled up from your research just now. The only thing I didn’t already tell you about why NOT to use the M1 for long intervals is that it lost that cert from BMW, I was unaware of that but that’s because I stopped using it years ago in favor of the LM 2332. 




> BMW also recommends Castrol. I'm now investigating Castrol Edge A3/B4 0w-30. It is rated 502, BMW LL01, MB 229.5. I haven't been able to find an UOA for this specific viscosity, but Castrol in general has done ok in some reports. Castrol describes it as a full synthetic.


Yeah the castrol German manufacturers specify is fully synthetic but it’s got nothing on LM 2332 and barely costs any less either. It’s just more readily available but if you have Amazon Prime no reason not to get LM every time




> I've seen written reports from BMW and a video explanation from a LiquiMoly representative that state that climate has little to not effect on viscosity selection with modern especially synthetic oils. You can run 0w-30 in hot climate just fine. The engine cooling systems are designed to run the engine to operating temperature regardless of outside weather.


Yeah pretty much. That’s why I took care to say that you’d be seriously “splitting hairs” to make the decision on 5w30 over 5w40 based on temps. There’s barely any difference for the modern oils and engine you are looking at. 

Your fuel economy concern is fairly valid (over the life of the vehicle considering even a slight mpg increase adds of over such a span of time) but if you ask me you’re still making this way more difficult than it has to be. I’ve told you what you need to know and the evidence you dug up that corroborates what I was trying to tell you in the beginning is all pointing you to just us the LM 2332 and be done with it. It will perform excellently, it won’t break the bank, it’ll give you peace of mind b/c you know it’s a top notch choice for your vehicle, and it’s that simple. And mind you this is all coming from someone who generally also makes things way more complicated then they have to be so you’re definitely overthinking your options. 



> I'm also considering doing UOA between oil changes for both the current oil and whatever I use when I change the oil. I can keep better tabs and make an more informed decision on when its best to change it.


Yes always a good idea. And as said in the beginning of this thread this is the basis of all my claims. Not just what I’ve read but dozens of UOAs comparing oils and intervals based on as strict of valid testing methodology as possible. And on that note of methodology just bear in mind comparing 1 single UOA of what you have in now versus what you choose (hopefully LM 2332) is not going to be a totally representative sample because there are so many factors that affect the results of a UOA. Multiple samples of each are required for truly generalizable, representative, and valid results. As I’ve done for my UOAs. That’s testing methodology 101.


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## dmelgar (Jul 10, 2002)

Thy_Harrowing said:


> Are you just repeating what I already said about LM 2332 and M1 as a clarification? Or did you not read my posts closely enough to see that I already told you in my very first reply to you about what you just pulled up from your research just now.


This isn't all about you. I don't take anyone's word as gospel.

I'm posting what I have found. I thought you'd be happy that it agrees with what you've already said, but its not necessarily meant as a reply to you.

I'm surprised there isn't anyone else chiming in to discuss oils. I thought that was always a hot debate topic. I guess most folks just get M1 from Walmart and are done, or let the dealer put in whatever.


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## avs (May 23, 2012)

dmelgar said:


> This isn't all about you. I don't take anyone's word as gospel.
> 
> I'm posting what I have found. I thought you'd be happy that it agrees with what you've already said, but its not necessarily meant as a reply to you.
> 
> I'm surprised there isn't anyone else chiming in to discuss oils. I thought that was always a hot debate topic. I guess most folks just get M1 from Walmart and are done, or let the dealer put in whatever.


M1 from Walmart is ~10 for 5 qts. After rebate. It’s a no brainer for us running mainly a stock or mildly tune motor.


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

dmelgar said:


> Ok, how about this one. Liqui Moly 2039 Longtime High Tech 5W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil - 5 Liter Jug https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005H28X46/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_BVDaBbHWDWGVE
> 
> Says full synthetic. 502. But it’s BMW LL04 instead of LL01. I don’t know what that means yet.


LL-04 is for European low sulfur gasoline (<10ppm), and used for ULSD applications.
LL-01 is for normal US gasoline (30 ppm)

But supposedly, in 2017, 10 ppm gasoline started to roll, as mandated by the EPA.

LL-04 isn't made for the combustion byproducts of 30ppm sulfur gasoline. BMW recommends against using it. LL-04 is like the equivalent of VW504.00/507.00

What it ultimately means? You're not going to get the long OCI you want.

The first thing you worry about is not the UOA's, but the VOA's which gives you the indication of the additive package of the oil.


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## Thy_Harrowing (Dec 7, 2014)

> This isn't all about you. I don't take anyone's word as gospel.


Totally fair, I typically don't either UNTIL that person demonstrates their knowledge/experience and/or evidence enough that I feel comfortable taking their word to the bank. Now, perhaps I was being presumptuous, but I was pretty sure I had demonstrated that sufficiently hence I was a a tad miffed that you were just now believing what I've taken time out of my last few days to try to explain to you already to save you the time and research (which you put in anyway). At the end of the day I can't fault you for wanting to get information from multiple sources so it is what it is. Glad you concur.





> M1 from Walmart is ~10 for 5 qts. After rebate. It’s a no brainer for us running mainly a stock or mildly tune motor.


Not if you plan to run that M1 more than 5K miles between oil changes bud. Read the thread more thoroughly.





> LL-04 is for European low sulfur gasoline (<10ppm), and used for ULSD applications.
> LL-01 is for normal US gasoline (30 ppm)
> 
> But supposedly, in 2017, 10 ppm gasoline started to roll, as mandated by the EPA.
> ...



Exactly. It's all about the additive packages and how long they last before they sheer and eventually deplete, then the UOA information comes in to play as it indicates to what extent wear is impacted.


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## dmelgar (Jul 10, 2002)

Thy_Harrowing said:


> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Don't use that that line of LM. That is NOT a fully synthetic. This is exactly what I was talking about above with there being lots of different lines of oils from all different manufacturers and needing to be careful because they aren't all equal. Any time you see "synthese" or any other attempt at implying synthetic without actually straight up saying "fully synthetic" it is NOT synthetic. Companies will play around with the wording all day long to make it tricky but legally they can't say "synthetic" unless it is in fact "fully synthetic" or if they qualify it by saying "semi-synthetic". That oil you have there is a "semi-synthetic" which means it is a half-synthetic/half-conventional blend. It in no way, shape, or form can compare to the oil I recommended to you, the Leichtlauf 5W-40 (link below). That semi-synthetic should never be put in your vehicle, VW specifies ONLY fully synthetic oils. You should switch immediately. A semi-synthetic is NOT at all suitable for 10K intervals.
> 
> I would have told you this sooner if I had seen your links. My eyes aren't the best anymore and I missed that you put the links in the text itself in your first post.
> 
> Use this and never look back: https://www.amazon.com/Liqui-Moly-2332-Leichtlauf-Engine/dp/B00LIC29H6


Back to where I started, I emailed LiquiMoly regarding oil suggestions for my new Golf. They replied suggesting this very oil, the Special Tec LL 5W-30. They included a data sheet that starts with:

Description
*Fully synthetic*, high-tech low-viscosity motor oil. With advanced wear-protection formula. Fastest cold-start oiling during starting and minimum friction during daily driving ensure an extremely long engine service life. Provides the ideal oil pressure under all operating conditions. Keeps oil consumption low. Exceeds the strict test requirements demanded by renowned manufacturers.

Properties
- tested for turbochargers and catalytic converters - high lubrication reliability
- outstanding engine cleanliness
*- optimum stability to aging*
*- high shear stability*
- rapid oil delivery at low temperatures
- saves fuel and reduces pollutant emissions​
It then lists specs, approvals.


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

dmelgar said:


> Back to where I started, I emailed LiquiMoly regarding oil suggestions for my new Golf. They replied suggesting this very oil, the Special Tec LL 5W-30. They included a data sheet that starts with:
> 
> Description
> *Fully synthetic*, high-tech low-viscosity motor oil. With advanced wear-protection formula. Fastest cold-start oiling during starting and minimum friction during daily driving ensure an extremely long engine service life. Provides the ideal oil pressure under all operating conditions. Keeps oil consumption low. Exceeds the strict test requirements demanded by renowned manufacturers.
> ...


If it's this:, https://www.amazon.com/Liqui-Moly-Special-5W-30-2249/dp/B003FMGSZQ
Then it is a Group III basestock.

Since they are claiming high shear stability, what's the HTHS at? If it's 3.5, then that's the bare minimum to meet 502.00/ACEA A3/B4 spec


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## Thy_Harrowing (Dec 7, 2014)

Look two people who know their **** and have a lot of experience to back it up, as well as significant evidence from BITOG gurus are all pointing you to NOT use the stuff that oil LM suggested and to instead use the LM 2332 we have discussed. We’ve been over all of this already and we’re going in circles now. The 2332 is your best option from LM and probably one of your best options at large and there is loads of evidence to support that assertion. I will buy your next car if you aren’t completely pleased with the performance of that oil I recommended. I’ll sign an official document stating such. Just put this to rest, you’ll be glad you did later and you won’t have so much of a headache from overthinking it to death (b/c some people have already done that for you).


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

Thy_Harrowing said:


> Look two people who know their **** and have a lot of experience to back it up, as well as significant evidence from BITOG gurus are all pointing you to NOT use the stuff that oil LM suggested and to instead use the LM 2332 we have discussed. We’ve been over all of this already and we’re going in circles now. The 2332 is your best option from LM and probably one of your best options at large and there is loads of evidence to support that assertion. I will buy your next car if you aren’t completely pleased with the performance of that oil I recommended. I’ll sign an official document stating such. Just put this to rest, you’ll be glad you did later and you won’t have so much of a headache from overthinking it to death (b/c some people have already done that for you).


The BITOG folks are also saying 2332 Leichlauf is a Group III oil. 

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3734351/Liqui_Moly_Leichtlauf_High_Tec

Here is a SDS that confirms it

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjACegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw1RDsUEad8WTe3ttv9jsMKA

Castrol Edge FST 0w40 A3/B4 is a PAO oil.

Mobil 1 0w40 FS is a combo of mostly GTL with some PAO.

Castrol 0w40 and the Mobil 1 0w40 FS uses 1 decene homopolymer hydrogenated, which is a PAO (Group IV basestock).


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## Thy_Harrowing (Dec 7, 2014)

BsickPassat said:


> The BITOG folks are also saying 2332 Leichlauf is a Group III oil.
> 
> https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3734351/Liqui_Moly_Leichtlauf_High_Tec
> 
> ...


While group III > group IV is a good rule of thumb, it’s not always that black and white. Some, defunitely not many but some, group IIIs perform better than group IVs. It’s also worth pointing out that there are a few different “Liquimoly Leichtlauf High Tech” formulas and some are better than others. I don’t remember where/how b/c it has been too long but I confirmed the one I run and recommend is the best of them and I do believe it is group IV. I wish I could provide a source but I don’t recall where and I’m not gonna dig it up. You’ll just have to take my word for it, that I wouldn’t put it in my car or recommend it if extensive research hadn’t been in favor of it AND I wouldn’t have decided to stick with it versus the other very high end group IV oils I’ve run which it consitently proved to perform slightly better than. No matter which way you slice it this particular LM formula I’m recommending has an extremely good track record anywhere you look or ask.


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## dmelgar (Jul 10, 2002)

BsickPassat said:


> The BITOG folks are also saying 2332 Leichlauf is a Group III oil.
> 
> https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3734351/Liqui_Moly_Leichtlauf_High_Tec
> 
> ...


Pardon the noob question, but how can you tell from the SDS that its a group III oil?

I've also been looking at Castrol Edge 0w30 A3/B4. Is that also a PAO oil? Its SDS is here. The SDS looks the same between 0w-30 and 0w-40. The 0w-40 SDS is here. 

The Castrol lists as primary ingredient, " Pentadecane, 7-methylene-, mixed with 1-tetradecene, dimers and trimers, hydrogenated". That sounds like a PAO.
The LiquiMoly oils (both of them) list "paraffinic distillate" as the primary base. Is that a group III? The Tech LL oil I've been considering has its SDS here. 

Does anyone happen to know for sure what oil comes from the factory in a new car? As I send my oil for analysis, not sure if I should describe it as Castrol Edge 0w-30 or 0w-40 or something else.


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

dmelgar said:


> Pardon the noob question, but how can you tell from the SDS that its a group III oil?
> 
> I've also been looking at Castrol Edge 0w30 A3/B4. Is that also a PAO oil? Its SDS is here. The SDS looks the same between 0w-30 and 0w-40. The 0w-40 SDS is here.
> 
> ...


You find out using Google.


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## dmelgar (Jul 10, 2002)

BsickPassat said:


> You find out using Google.


I've obviously googled the heck out of everything so far. I guess what I wrote must be correct or you don't know.
Thanks


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## avs (May 23, 2012)

Here’s a list of approved motor oil for vag. If you pick any one of the vw spec 502 etc you’re safe as far as warranty concerns. https://www.audiusa.com/content/dam...2017-Technical-Service-Bulletin-1.22.2018.pdf


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## dmelgar (Jul 10, 2002)

*Determining if an oil is Group III or PAO (Group IV)*

From what I've been able to gather from Googling so far as a running log of what I'm gathering,

To determine if an oil is Group III or Group IV (PAO), 

- find its SDS (Safety Data Sheet). Most are available online.
- looks for its primary ingredient, typically >50%.

Group IV: (PAO) will contain or more of the following chemicals or related. They will often say hydrogenated. The goal is to make the chemical more stable, less reactive with fewer stray hydrogen bonds possible. They are alpha olefins.
- *decene*
- Penta*decane*
- tetra*decene*


Group III: If the primary ingredient says one of the following, it can likely be considered non PAO, likely group III if they claim synthetic.
- *distillates*
- paraffinic *distillate*


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## dmelgar (Jul 10, 2002)

avs said:


> Here’s a list of approved motor oil for vag. If you pick any one of the vw spec 502 etc you’re safe as far as warranty concerns. https://www.audiusa.com/content/dam...2017-Technical-Service-Bulletin-1.22.2018.pdf


Thanks. True.

All the oils we've been discussing in this thread are 502 approved.

Mobil 1 0w-40
Castrol Edge A3/B4 0w-30
Castrol Edge A3/B4 0w-40
LiquiMoly Tech LL 0w-30
LiquiMoly 2332 Leichtlauf High Tech 5W-40 
There are a ton of others as evidenced by the list you linked.


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

dmelgar said:


> I've obviously googled the heck out of everything so far. I guess what I wrote must be correct or you don't know.
> Thanks


I can't access liqui moly's site at work.

And I already told you the Liqui Moly's you linked are Group III. That's why if you don't believe someone, you Google it yourself.


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## dmelgar (Jul 10, 2002)

BsickPassat said:


> I can't access liqui moly's site at work.
> 
> And I already told you the Liqui Moly's you linked are Group III. That's why if you don't believe someone, you Google it yourself.


Why are folks uptight on "believing" or not. I never said I didn't believe you. I asked a more general question, not specific to LiquiMoly and you said you don't know & to Google it, so I'm trying to look it up and share the info.


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

dmelgar said:


> Why are folks uptight on "believing" or not. I never said I didn't believe you. I asked a more general question, not specific to LiquiMoly and you said you don't know & to Google it, so I'm trying to look it up and share the info.


Why were you a little uptight when I didn't respond to you in a "reasonable" manner or time?

That's what Google is for, to help you research things.


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## Thy_Harrowing (Dec 7, 2014)

dmelgar said:


> Why are folks uptight on "believing" or not. I never said I didn't believe you.


In my case, and I'll hazard a guess that in Bsick's case as well, the reason is that we're both fairly regular posters who spend a decent amount of time out of our days sharing what we know and doing our best to give people sound advice based on the research and experience that we've taken even more time in gaining and trying to pass that along to people like yourself. Yet, here we are basically going around in circles on a subject that we've basically done to death by this point, or at least I feel we have. Trust me, I understand and respect that you want to do some research to corroborate our advice before you take it to the bank and that you want to ask clarifying questions, but at some point (a point I believe has already passed) you have to realize that you've already got the knowledge transfer - as we call it in the Software Engineering field - from us, and you've got a call to make now. Understand that past a certain point it can start to seem like you distrust us when we've already spent time and energy giving you the best advice we know how but you're still belaboring points that are already answered and that that can be a bit annoying considering we're just here to help and you're don't seem to be taking it. That's how it looks on our side, try to understand; likewise, I try to understand that on your side you're just looking to make the most informed decision possible whatever way you can, which is why I've been stressing that I genuinely believe you've got the info you need to make a decision now.

I'm not sure that I have anything else I can contribute to the conversation at this point but I'll keep tabs on it in case something does come up. I hope whatever you choose, that in the end you are happy with your choice and so is your car.


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## A.Junkie (Sep 19, 2019)

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pennzoil-Platinum-Euro-L-5W-30-Full-Synthetic-Motor-Oil-5-qt/179202222


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## Leirk (Oct 1, 2020)

A.Junkie said:


> https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pennzoil-Platinum-Euro-L-5W-30-Full-Synthetic-Motor-Oil-5-qt/179202222
> 
> 
> View attachment 79202


I’m sure this is a great oil. But it is NOT VW approved.


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