# How practical are ITB's for daily driving?



## GTTechnics (Apr 2, 2003)

Are they okay for a daily driver? Do they require anything special from a standalone or will an SDS work fine?


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## GTTechnics (Apr 2, 2003)

*Re: How practical are ITB's for daily driving? (GTTechnics)*

noone?


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## 84Rocco2bturbo (Feb 13, 2002)

*Re: How practical are ITB's for daily driving? (GTTechnics)*

A properly tuned set-up should be as good if not better than a single throttle body set-up.
I'm not too familiar with SDS, but it should work with ITB.European BMW M3s have ITB from factory.


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: How practical are ITB's for daily driving? (84Rocco2bturbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *84Rocco2bturbo* »_A properly tuned set-up should be as good if not better than a single throttle body set-up.
I'm not too familiar with SDS, but it should work with ITB.European BMW M3s have ITB from factory.

The last generation M5 and the current generation M3 also have ITB's - in the USA.


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## GTTechnics (Apr 2, 2003)

*Re: How practical are ITB's for daily driving? (WolfGTI)*

Thats awesome, do they run it through a large plenum and out to an air box though? I can't imagine them having ram stacks or 6-8 individual filters. Also do they use a map sensor or a MAF sensor?


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## IceBoy (Mar 28, 2003)

they are boxed in, with a large airbox and snorkel to keep temps and noise down i guess.
i can't remember if they run a map or maf after only working on one briefly, sorry.


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (IceBoy)*

ITBs, since they hafta run something programmable for fuel at least, can be tuned to be very streetable. 
BUT-there aren't many streetable ITB cars out there. By the time you get around to doing ITBs, typically the car is gutted, maybe caged, the suspension has 500# springs up front, 400# out back, poly/delrin all over the place, a 6puck and a cam that makes bumper to bumper a bit more work than most enjoy. 
That is to say if the car is developed to really take advantage of those ITBs, it's street manners are compromised toward the perfornance end of things. 
Of course you could add ITBs to a more moderate motor but wheres the fun in that? 


_Modified by Andrew Stauffer at 1:08 PM 5-12-2004_


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## Duberman (Mar 13, 2004)

I'm thinking of putting ITBs on my 2.0 8v. Are there any cons with ITBs? Are any kits avaible in North America? I found a few from the UK.
I originally wanted to SuperCharge my 2.0 but don't have the funds right now for that. I thought maybe ITBs would be a cheaper alternative. I'm doing research on 'em but can't find that much info. 
Any help would be appreciated.


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## JettaAE (Mar 29, 2003)

*Re: (Duberman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Duberman* »_I'm thinking of putting ITBs on my 2.0 8v. Are there any cons with ITBs? Are any kits avaible in North America? I found a few from the UK.
I originally wanted to SuperCharge my 2.0 but don't have the funds right now for that. I thought maybe ITBs would be a cheaper alternative. I'm doing research on 'em but can't find that much info. 
Any help would be appreciated. 
i am with you man...i think itb's would be mean as hell on a little 2.0l 8v. if you turn anything up kits wise or anything like that hit me up.


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## Duberman (Mar 13, 2004)

I've found one supplier in CA
Dynamic Racing Solutions
401 Park Industrial Dr.
La Habra CA 90631
ph 562-694-2226
fx 562-694-5244
http://www.racesolutions.com
They have a kit for the 2.0 8v, they sent me a reply:
"We have a DCOE style individual throttle body kit that will work for your 8V motor. The throttle body set (45mm) and throttle linkage adapter for VW = $1,015. You will need to supply your own DCOE manifold."
------------------------------------------------------------

I was wondering besides the DCOE manifold, is there anything else that I need (I read somewhere I need a high flow fuel pump, fuel rail, fuel return lines)?
Can I use the stock ECU with my GIAC chip?
Any problems running ITBs in winter (I live in Canada, it can pretty cold)



_Modified by Duberman at 10:24 PM 5-17-2004_


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## vdubjim (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Duberman)*

youd think for that money it would come with at least a fuel rail?
I would guess you need custom ECU like megasquirt.


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## 2L Bunny (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: (Andrew Stauffer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Andrew Stauffer* »_ITBs, since they hafta run something programmable for fuel at least, can be tuned to be very streetable. 
BUT-there aren't many streetable ITB cars out there. _Modified by Andrew Stauffer at 1:08 PM 5-12-2004_

Andrew hit that right on the head. I ran the ITB's he's using on my car for about 2 years. Of that time 18 months or so were daily driven, with it being my only car. Trips to school, work, road trips to BC. It can be done and tuned properly the drive ok. Not that I'd let my gf loose in my Rabbit with ITB's. But overall they just aren't THAT streetable. Sure do sound great tho http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (2L Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2L Bunny* »_
But overall they just aren't THAT streetable. Sure do sound great tho http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I take her to work a few days a week, and there's an underpass that I go through...I hafta slow down from a 4th gear cruise, grab 2nd, floor it as I go through the underpass.......you just CANNOT believe the sexy noise this sucker makes. It freakin' SCREAMS, who knew with 8v......


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## Duberman (Mar 13, 2004)

Would you guys recommend ITBs for a daily driver and weekend racer car?


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## vdubjim (Jan 30, 2000)

*Re: (Andrew Stauffer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Andrew Stauffer* »_
.......you just CANNOT believe the sexy noise this sucker makes. It freakin' SCREAMS, who knew with 8v......

Kinda like my 16v on carbs








Id say that carbs properly adjusted are very streetable on a 16v.
id hate to have em on a 8v and get stuck in rush hour standstill traffic at 95 degrees http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif Nice and toasty exhaust mani.


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (vdubjim)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdubjim* »_Kinda like my 16v on carbs








Id say that carbs properly adjusted are very streetable on a 16v.
id hate to have em on a 8v and get stuck in rush hour standstill traffic at 95 degrees http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif Nice and toasty exhaust mani.

Unless you have them on a cross flow 8v


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## 2L Bunny (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: (Andrew Stauffer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Andrew Stauffer* »_
I take her to work a few days a week, and there's an underpass that I go through...I hafta slow down from a 4th gear cruise, grab 2nd, floor it as I go through the underpass.......you just CANNOT believe the sexy noise this sucker makes. It freakin' SCREAMS, who knew with 8v......

Oops, I meant that as they aren't that bad. Still drivable, but not something you want to get stuck in traffic with.


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (2L Bunny)*

Yeah, they can perform very smoothly, but it's a lot of work on the driver to make them so. Although in my case, it''s also a case of a 6 puck clutch disc, lightened flywheel, etc, that makes the car a bit "edgy". With a mild supsension, factory flywheel and clutch,and a G grind, she'd probably be daily driver smooth. 
Yeah, those intake air temps really suffer in stop and go. But EFI handles it well enough.........


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (Andrew Stauffer)*

Off idle tip in is the hardest area to tune especially since you'll likely have a BIG cam to match up to those ITB's along with headwork.. along with that goes very little vacuum at idle.
This makes tuning tip in and fueling around the idle mark difficult.. which in turn translates to either too rich or too lean and stumbling or stalling if you hit the gas wrong.
AT least thats what i'm finding. I'm sure with lots of tuning time and experimentation you can tune it out and its the next area i'm focusing on. I think i need to remove my Vacuum reservoir and just run the restrictor to increase the response time from my ECU to more closely match how fast the motor responds.
Overall Andrews right.. my car is caged, full poly, 500lb springs, bilstein sports, very tight.. and very very Fast.. and That ITB sound at WOT.. its sexy very very SEXY.. until you start to realize your ears are ringing when you get out of the car lol.
Only downside i've got so far is that the damn things make you drive faster than you normally would.
On the plus side.. my cammed 8V with ITb's and a 2.5" exhaust with nearly no restriction is actually very very quiet at idle and cruise even with no interior. Makes it easy to sneak up on unsuspecting victims
My stock 83 533i BMW is louder with a straight thru exhaust.


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## vwdohc993 (Dec 4, 2001)

*Re: (Duberman)*

TWMINDUCTION should have a web site thats easy to find they sell top notch stuff I have a set of 50mm ITBs on my scirocco they use a webber carb manifold which they sell also, my set was 1800 new but maybe the price came down its been about 4 years










_Modified by vwdohc993 at 1:10 PM 6-3-2004_


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (vwdohc993)*

I've heard TWM's quality isnt that high.. sleeve bushings instead of roller bearings on their TB's which arent even up to OEM VW quality.
Trying to recall the name of the company in australia that sells really nice TB's cheaper than them
think it may be here altho i dont have flash or shockwave at work and cant see their product list
http://www.speed-technology.com/


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## blackmkIII (May 18, 2004)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

8v crossflow guys twminduction.com now has a kit for that engine its like 2000.00 though. comes with manifold rail tb's fuel pressure reg etc.


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## bahnblitz (Jan 18, 2002)

*Re: (blackmkIII)*

Badger5 also makes ITBS located in england if im correct might wanna check them out!


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## CL111583 (Mar 21, 2003)

how much more power are you looking to make with an ITB set up in the 8v ?


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (ChadMk3)*

My goal is 150whp on a stock bottom end. It has been...elusive.....abut you've gotta have goals.......


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## 2L Bunny (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: (bahnblitz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bahnblitz* »_Badger5 also makes ITBS located in england if im correct might wanna check them out!

Unless something's changed, Badger 5's are just Jenvey's. They take Jenvey's and make a kit around them specifically for 16V's.
hth,


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (2L Bunny)*

I thought Badger5's were just rebadged Jenvey's setup for the 16V..


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## bahnblitz (Jan 18, 2002)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

can anyone say echo?


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## 2manvr6 (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: (Duberman)*

echo









_Quote, originally posted by *Duberman* »_
You will need to supply your own DCOE manifold

whats a DCOE manifold?


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## bahnblitz (Jan 18, 2002)

*Re: (2manvr6)*

DCOE refers to the weber side draft carb its the model of the carb itself


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## 2manvr6 (Sep 28, 2002)

*Re: (bahnblitz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bahnblitz* »_DCOE refers to the weber side draft carb its the model of the carb itself


so it has nothing to do with the elec. fuel injected cars?


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## bahnblitz (Jan 18, 2002)

*Re: (2manvr6)*

Well the manifold is meant for the DCOE but some throttle bodies have the same "footprint' as the DCOE series so the TBs are a straight bolt up deal


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## kevinmacd (Sep 4, 2003)

*Re: (Andrew Stauffer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Andrew Stauffer* »_
I take her to work a few days a week, and there's an underpass that I go through...I hafta slow down from a 4th gear cruise, grab 2nd, floor it as I go through the underpass.......you just CANNOT believe the sexy noise this sucker makes. It freakin' SCREAMS, who knew with 8v......

you have no idea how true this is especially with my VR6 ones!!! I actually drove to work this morning and did a 4th gear pull through a 1/2 mile tunnel


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (kevinmacd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevinmacd* »_
you have no idea how true this is especially with my VR6 ones!!! I actually drove to work this morning and did a 4th gear pull through a 1/2 mile tunnel
















I get freakin' goosebumps thinking about it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## JettaAE (Mar 29, 2003)

*Re: (Andrew Stauffer)*

i need some video or sound clips cuz i wanna hear!!!


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## stock77 (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (JettaAE)*

You can get Jenveys from a a guy in Canada, as he is an importer for them. He can also do manifolds, etc. for a 2L 8V set-up. But he is a small shop and can only deal with pretty serious people. If anyone is really serious about it they can look him up im me for info. He is on the web.


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## kevinmacd (Sep 4, 2003)

*Re: (JettaAE)*

search on my SN there are vids out there!


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## WolfGTI (Jun 16, 1999)

*Re: (stock77)*

You are speaking of Lance Hayward @ Hayward Performance - I have been in contact with him - very knowledgeable guy and very willing to share his knowledge.


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## VWGOD (Jun 10, 2001)

*Re: (WolfGTI)*

Wow 2200usd for a set up. Is that what the going rate for itbs for a vr6 is?


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## kevinmacd (Sep 4, 2003)

*Re: (VWGOD)*

i made mine from scratch so i would not know the going rate!


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## VWGOD (Jun 10, 2001)

*Re: (kevinmacd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevinmacd* »_i made mine from scratch so i would not know the going rate!

What did it end up costing it total? If you would mind divulging.


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## kevinmacd (Sep 4, 2003)

*Re: (VWGOD)*

as i've said in numerous other posts a magician never tells his secret


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## VWGOD (Jun 10, 2001)

*Re: (kevinmacd)*

Oh come on man!!







I'm trying to get an idea of how much I would be looking at to do this. So far the only price I have is 2200us which to me seems a bit high. I was just wondering about a ball park figure. I'm not asking how you did it.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (VWGOD)*

My ITB setup on my 8V 1.8L cost me $100 for the ITB's, $160 for the ITG megaflow airfilter, about $400 for megasquirt, $100 for injectors, misc amounts for the diff sensors and digi fuel rail, etc etc..
about $50 in steel tube, and 50-60hours of time to fab the manifold, and another $100 in clamps and hose..
I'd assume you might need two sets of ITB's for a VR6 so you could take them apart and make a longer set of 6.. but i cant assume it would cost much more than what i've suggested so far.


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## diygti (May 4, 2001)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

I just scored a set of GSXR ITB's off ebay for $65.00. My car runs on megasquirt right now for a total investment of about $250. I have universal air filter material from a motorcycle shop (Great source for cheap air filters for this) that I got for $15.00. All I have to buy after the manifold is fabricated is hose and hose clamps. ITB's and programmable EFI for about $350 (Not including free labor and manifold materials) How is that for cheap?


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## VWGOD (Jun 10, 2001)

*Re: (diygti)*

Wicked thanks guys that's the info I was looking for!!







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VR6TurboProject (May 10, 2004)

Man i want ITB's.. I don't even know where to start. I just started educating myself.


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## vokeswaagin (Jul 23, 2003)

*Re: (VR6TurboProject)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6TurboProject* »_Man i want ITB's.. I don't even know where to start. I just started educating myself.

you and me both..
as was said before, looking for somthing cheaper than a supercharger, buts still impressive... ITB's are up my ally...


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## JettaAE (Mar 29, 2003)

*Re: (vokeswaagin)*

yea i think itb's are very impressive cuz when u open the hook people just say wow whats that lol


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## Vento_Gareth (Feb 3, 2003)

ITB's can be used as daily drivers my 24v Vento is running 45-42 Jenveys direct to head via http://www.grantmotorsport.com There is a full feature in the June 2004 issue of PVW I've been running this set-up for 18 months and it hasn't let me down once and I've been hitting the 7,200 rev limiter all too often if you know what I mean!!!


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## dubass (Mar 26, 2003)

*Re: (Vento_Gareth)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vento_Gareth* »_ITB's can be used as daily drivers my 24v Vento is running 45-42 Jenveys direct to head via http://www.grantmotorsport.com There is a full feature in the June 2004 issue of PVW I've been running this set-up for 18 months and it hasn't let me down once and I've been hitting the 7,200 rev limiter all too often if you know what I mean!!!

















sick. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

*Re: (CdnDub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CdnDub* »_I thought Badger5's were just rebadged Jenvey's setup for the 16V..

they are, but Jenvey makes a killer set of ITBs. My friend uses them on his Zetec powered Lotus7


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## DubUnit (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: (Chapel)*

So what exactly do ITB's do for you? The gains are not as good as a supercharger or a turbo. Im going to guess you still have somewhat stock reliability, but for the money, it doesnt seem like they give that much power.







Educate me.


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

individually metered air per cylinder. perfect for high revving applications and mandatory for total all motor power.
It's nice because you can run a hot cam and still get good idle because each cylinder is sucking in just what it needs rather than what a simple single throttle and idle control system will do.


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: (Chapel)*

Ultimately, boost will do more bang for your buck than ITBs, but some of us enjoy all motor. There's nothing like the sound of ITBs or carbs screaming past 7k rpms. Okay, maybe a Ferrari V-10 3liter spinning at 18k rpms is better, but that costs millions of bux, not the coupla grand that an ITB engine costs. 
The other thing to consider is the hp made with ITBs can rival a factory turbo set up for #. Lotsa stock 1.8t cars dyno in the 120-150whp range, depending on if they were the 150 or 180 crank hp version. Dave just made 153whp on his 1.8 8v, so it's fun to be the underdog and achieve respectable #s. 
And on top of htat, when Ferrari and BMW and a few others use ITBs as an OEM intake set up, well, it's a good endorsement. 
There's more bang for the buck out there, but if you love all motor set ups, there's little better than an ITB engine......


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

and, you can always turbo ITBs








that makes for some evil evil evil potential.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (Chapel)*

One thing no one has really driven home yet.. Is that All motor setups are way way better for carving the twisties and driveability overall.
When you have "INSTANT" power available at the touch of the pedal it makes for a much Safer and driveable car when you know exactly how the power will come on and when.
Think of it this way .. Porsche 930 turbo's are known for being one of the hardest cars to drive.. mostly because they had huge turbo's and very low compression.. <this is an example of an extreme> when you got on the gas in a corner the boost wasnt there right away and you'd be counting on power to pull you around <or push you in that case>.. you suddenly hit boost 2/3 of the way thru the corner and spin out because you just gained 100hp in 200rpm
NA lets you control exactly how much power you put down and when by modulating the throttle precisely.. makes for a more more precise driving experience.
Dont get me wrong.. boost is fun too.. Its just different.


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## bahnblitz (Jan 18, 2002)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

two words: throttle response
as touched on by CdnDub
power delivery is much more linear and less peaky than a turbo motor 
unless you like the idea of coming onto boost before the apex of a turn and finding yourself face to face with a curb


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## JettaAE (Mar 29, 2003)

*Re: (CdnDub)*

i agree totally!!!! thats why someone needs to sell me their itb's and system management


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## BuZnEE (Jan 5, 2002)

*Re: (JettaAE)*

how about carbs? doesnt it give you pretty much what ITBs give you?


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: (BuZnEE)*

they give you a similar airflow potential.. and perhaps top end power, but definitely not driveability.. ITB's rely on electronic fuel injection rather than mechanical
Basically the diff between CIS and EFI..
CIS works but its not as efficient as say Digi1


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## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

now if I can only find a Weber 3X DCOE intake manifold for a BMW M20 engine I can run the new Weber DCOE ITBs


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (bahnblitz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bahnblitz* »_two words: throttle response
as touched on by CdnDub
power delivery is much more linear and less peaky than a turbo motor 
unless you like the idea of coming onto boost before the apex of a turn and finding yourself face to face with a curb









Thats why the ultimate setup would be ITB manifold with custom big plenum and twin screw charger... instant response and instant big boost...


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## bahnblitz (Jan 18, 2002)

*Re: (Peter Tong)*








shhhh . . . keep it on the DL!!!


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