# help with MS1 v2.2(running really rich)



## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

ok here are my settings for fuel. 

i went from a 2.5 bar fpr to a 3.0 bar fpr 
440 cc injectors 
lowered my req_fuel from 7.6m/s to 6.9m/s 
2 squirts 
and my injectors are wired 1-2 and 3-4 (patatron unit) 

im sorry im not at my computer and thats all of the info off the top of my head. 

ok so heres whats going on. When i first connected the laptop with ms i was rushing through the setups. by mistake or just by not thinking i selected a MAF sensor to run with my megasquirt. so it was running stupid rich. flooding fuel out of the exhaust pipe. so i went back and found that and switched it over to speed density. so the car starts up and idles great. i have a ton of gas in my oil from running super rich before, and alot is blowing through the turbo and out the exhaust. my afr reads 7-1 at idle. that is retarded rich for the way the car sounds and is running. im not running the car anymore due to all of the gas in my oil and dont want to destroy my rings or wash down my cylinder walls. so im hoping once i change the oil its not gonna be as rich anymore. 

Any thoughts? 

Concerns? 

What are your engine constants set at? 

i searched and searched and searched. registered at 3 different megasquirt forums and found nothing.


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## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

what wideband?


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

innovate lc-1 

oh yeah forgot to mention that its a 2L 16v. 

little by little im learning alot more. when i started this project i planned on using this ms unit because it had a near perfect tune on it and i was hoping to do very little modifications. the P.O. was using the exact same setup as me but he was using a 2.5 bar fpr and i upped it to a 3.0fpr. i guess nothing is ever what it seems. now i just gotta keep on reading i guess


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## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

did you recalibrate the LC1? 
same ground spots as MS? 
configure ms for Innovate? 
Do you pay and use tuner studio? 
verified there is no exhaust leaks? 
verified there is no intake leaks?


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

lc-1 is recalibrated. reading around 22 when motor is off and super rich when on. 

i have a pinhole exhaust leak where my downpipe meets my wastegate route. i dont think that would matter for now. 

no leaks on the intake side 

i dont pay for tunerstudio. i wish i could work and afford it but this 21 credit school semester is rocking me. 

and yes ms and lc-1 are grounded at the same spot. im using a diyautotune relay board


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## Svedka (Jul 4, 2008)

Have you register at MS runs and post a file and maybe one of the professionals can guide you it could be something simple and overlooked? 

http://msruns.com/


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

thats what im thinking. i have to remember to bring home my laptop next time im at the garage. i appreciate everyone help here on the tex so far though.


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

can anyone post their constants? i would like to see some with close to the same set up as me.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

see my old thread: 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?2242882-16vT-megasquirt-install 
nearly the same setup as yours... with the 3bar fpr as well if i recall correctly. 

(screen shots of my constants and maps are in there near the last couple pages) 

also check out spitfireefi for the msq file - though its for 024s software (really old stuff) so youd have to port it over by hand


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

nice thanks for that thread. when i have a little more time i will sit down and read more of it. alot of good troubleshooting all throughout it. 

quick question about your constants ValveCoverGasket: 

your req_fuel reads 6.8 on the upper and 3.4 on the lower. why the difference in values? when i enter my req_fuel it just sets it for 6.9m/s upper and lower. 

as far as your injector settings we are nearly the same. we might differ in one or two areas. i just dont have my tune in front of me at the moment.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

If you do alt staging, it halves the req_fuel


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

quoted from the megamanual: 

"For example, if you inject simultaneous and one injection, and have the same number of injectors as cylinders [i.e. port injection], then REQ_FUEL on the bottom is the same as REQ_FUEL on top. Same with alternate and two squirts. If you put in simultaneous and two squirts, then REQ_FUEL is divided in half - because you squirt twice, you need to inject 1/2 the fuel on each shot." 

going by the req_fuel calculator in the megamanual if you have it set for alternating staging it will set the bottom and top reQ_fuel levels the same value. 
so that must be my problem i need to switch it to simultaneous staging in order to get the upper box divided by 2 because i have it set up for 2 squirts. having it set up alternating would mean that both squirts are getting 6.8m/s when each squirt should be getting 3.4m/s. 

does this make sense? the megamanual is consuming my life right now i have been reading it non stop.


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

**** sucks. i changed it to run simultaneous and fired it right up. it came right to idle and ran perfectly. wideband was stupid rich still and still having a puddle of fuel under my downpipe. i am starting to think my injectors are constantly on. so i pulled the injector harness and tested if they had power when the key is on but the engine is off, and they do. is this normal? i dont see how the injectors would be on constantly.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

MS grounds the injectors it doesn't power them. Power at the the injectors KOEO is normal.


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

heres my constants table: 









and my VE table: 









can anyone see anything wrong? again the car runs great besides the fuel dumping from the dp. i dont want to run it anymore becaus i just changed my oil again from gas mixing with it.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Nothing looks out of the ordinary. 440cc injectors with a 2 liter is a lot of injector for a fairly small motor. Yeah I know you are turbo so you need them to make power under boost. Try reducing your idle VE values....start tuning it. Just keep an eye on your pulsewidths, 1.8ms or so is as low as you can control a Hi-Z injector.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

I'd also use MS1/Extra code 10gHires if you aren't already. It'll give you better control over the injectors.


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

the setup ran great with a p.o. im just wondering if its a wiring issue. even if my ve table were a little bit high at idle i dont think that would explain all of this extra fuel.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

audib6neusp30 said:


> the setup ran great with a p.o. im just wondering if its a wiring issue. even if my ve table were a little bit high at idle i dont think that would explain all of this extra fuel.


 When you say P.O. do you mean he owned the MS or the MS on this car with this set up?


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

i bought the MS unit and all of the turbo bits. the only thing i changed was the fpr. the whole story on the unit is that it ran great at one point. the car got sold running to some kid who eventually fried a piston ring and then sold the whole car again. so then that owner thought he could just swap a block in there and it would fire right up. but no. so then he gave up and parted the whole setup minus to motor to me. i had a pretty fresh 9a 16v that i installed the whole kit on. so fearing that it was a problem with the patatron unit i sent it out to need_a_vr6 to get it checked out. paul said everything was ok so then i wired it up, adding a relay board to try and make my life easier. towards the end i got a little frustrated with the wiring, and i dropped it off at NLS, to just find out it was a grounding issue. the car fired right up.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Still sounds to me like you need to tune the thing. Fire it up and take a datalog of it running for 30 or 40 seconds and then PM me. I'll shoot you my email and you can send the data log and your msq to me and I'll take a look at them. Do you know what firmware version you are running?


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

ms1 v2.2 running 029y from off the top of my head. 

the patatron unit was previously tuned. all of the numbers in the ve table were previously there. im finding it hard to believe that the tune is that far off thats it dumping raw fuel out of the exhaust.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

audib6neusp30 said:


> ms1 v2.2 running 029y from off the top of my head.
> 
> the patatron unit was previously tuned. all of the numbers in the ve table were previously there. im finding it hard to believe that the tune is that far off thats it dumping raw fuel out of the exhaust.


 Yeah but the only way to figure out what is going on remotely is to look at a datalog and your msq. And right off the bat you've got 2 problems with your set up. 
1: patatron unit 2: relay board . I've heard nothing but horror stories and problems with patatron MS units and all you are doing with a relay board is adding more connections that can fail or be miswired. 

I'm just tryin to help the best way I know how and if you just sit there and go but... but ...but I'll spend my time elsewhere. Not trying to be rude or anything. You're the one asking for help, my MS works just fine as do the 20 or so others I've installed and tuned in the last couple of years.


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

i appreciate all of the help everyone has to offer. im sorry if it seems like im being un-appreciative but im just nervous about destroying my motor. i already had to change the oil once due to alot of gasoline contaminating it.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Well at least post up your msq somewhere people can look at it. You said you had MAF turned on at first. Maybe you have other settings screwed up too.


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

im sorry im trying to read as much as possible. how can i post that file? just locate it and copy paste it?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

register on msruns and make a post and attach it there, link that thread here.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

audib6neusp30 said:


> im finding it hard to believe that the tune is that far off thats it dumping raw fuel out of the exhaust.


unless youve got a dead cylidner or something thats just not igniting...


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

> unless youve got a dead cylidner or something thats just not igniting...


damn now you have me really scared. i will do a compression test after school.

i will also post my msq file after school when im with my laptop.

are there any tests i can do to check if my injectors stay on constantly?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

audib6neusp30 said:


> damn now you have me really scared. i will do a compression test after school.
> 
> i will also post my msq file after school when im with my laptop.
> 
> are there any tests i can do to check if my injectors stay on constantly?


Yes, disconnect all of the injector connectors, either use a test light and paper clip to jump across the 2 terminals ( paper clip in 1 with the aligator clip attached to it and the probe tip in the other terminal) or get a "noid" light and stick it in the injector connector. Crank the motor over, the light should pulse on and off. If it stays on steady then the injectors are staying on.

But if your injectors were staying on you would almost certainly hydrolock the motor especially with 42#ers and I doubt the motor would even start. It's actually pretty hard to hurt a motor by being rich. No washing the cylinders down isn't good but melting the pistons cause you are lean is way worse.


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

i will try all of that right after school. 



> But if your injectors were staying on you would almost certainly hydrolock the motor especially with 42#ers and I doubt the motor would even start.


funny you say that. i only really get one good start on the car. the second crank is usually really violent and then i stop. (motor shakes, starter grinds, sounds terrible) i used to think it was a battery issue or a grounding issue. but i replaced everything, and have great grounds.

either way i will go back and test everything. thanks for all the help guys. if i cant get this going i will be looking for a shop after the holidays.


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

posted and attached my msq file on msruns. here is the link. thank you to everyone that has put in some thoughts on this thread.

http://http://msruns.com/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=23030


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

little update:

compression test is pretty solid.

170-170-180-170psi

as far as the test light, i rigged up a noid type light on each plug of the injectors. with the key on i got a solid light, when cranking the light seemed to stay constant, it kind of dimmed but not really. i was using just a regular test light, not an led light. 
so right now im leaning towards a stuck open injector. tomorrow i will tear apart my injector harness and go from there.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

LED light would be best... but if the light is on bright and solid with the key on and the engine off... youre most likely holding the injectors wide open


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> LED light would be best... but if the light is on bright and solid with the key on and the engine off... youre most likely holding the injectors wide open


x2 check you wiring at the relay board


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

the link up top wasnt working for some reason. here is another: http://www.msruns.com/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=23030

im going to take some pictures tonight of my relay board and wiring. it all seems too simple to mess up, but we will see.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

I went thru something like this when I installed my Patatron V2.2 unit. Seems there was an excess amount of solder flux around the injector drivers on the board causing a short circuit. Cleaning the area on the board solved that problem.


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## CrankDaBewstmun (Jul 24, 2008)

audib6neusp30 said:


> i will try all of that right after school.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If the motor is locking up during starting you either have too far advanced ignition timing (adjust timing table in the idle region) or you are hydrolocking (lower crank pulsewidth). You could try and play with the starting parameters such as cranking pulsewidth and afterstart enrichment. Are you getting a rich reading all the time or only the first few minutes of warmup? 

You can check for a stuck injector just by checking the spark plug for raw fuel. 

Ultimately the VE table will allow you to richen or lean the mixture. If you have a WB02 run a datalog then download MegaLogviewer and use the VEanalyze feature. It will adjust your VE table to match AFR entries. Great program :thumbup:


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

-spark plugs were soaked when i took them out.


no real updates, i bought a bosch noid light, and a led test light today. it was too dark to mess around with the injector harness, so thats gotta wait.

took some pictures of my relay board, you can see the 4 powers to the injectors along with the signal wires.



















i been talking to paul(need_a_vr6) if it turns out to be a flyback error or something corrupt on the board i will be shipping it out asap. still kind of crossing my fingers but i think it really has to do with the injector drivers on the ms board.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Check for flyback failure the easy and dangerous way:

Pull fuel rail
Put each injector into an empty beer bottle
Jumper fuel pump relay
Key on

If your injectors constantly spray, it's broke.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

audib6neusp30 said:


> i been talking to paul(need_a_vr6) if it turns out to be a flyback error or something corrupt on the board i will be shipping it out asap.


paul will definitely get it taken care of :thumbup:


i just fixed one (a v2.2) the other week that had U7 cracked nearly in half along the seam... without any sign of heat damage.

but it had one bank of injectors not firing at all, and one bank locked on solid.

bit of an odd failure... considering the drivers themselves were fine


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> i just fixed one (a v2.2) the other week that had U7 cracked nearly in half along the seam... without any sign of heat damage.
> 
> but it had one bank of injectors not firing at all, and one bank locked on solid.


yeah that's what alot of people are saying on the ms forums. everyone that has similar problems with their injectors staying open and not pulsing traced their problem back to U7.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Strange, I've never seen a failed U7 even on 2.2's with massive other flyback problems.


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

ok quick update: all tests were performed with a bosch noid light

injector bank 1 (injector 1 and injector 2)
key on engine not running- light stays constant
key cranking-light stays constant

injector bank 2 (injector 3 and injector 4)
key on engine not running - light quickly flickers on as soon as power is applied but then goes out.
key cranking- light is pulsing like it should.

i took apart the whole injector harness, everything is correct. i will trace it back to the relay board and mess around with the signal wires on the first bank. 

paul if thats not it i will be sending the ecu first thing next week, if thats ok with you.

thanks for reading guys, hopefully this thread is a huge help to someone else out there in my same position.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Have you cleaned the solder flux from around the injector drivers? Do you know how to do resistance checks to see if the drivers are good or bad or if the circuit is shorted?


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Strange, I've never seen a failed U7 even on 2.2's with massive other flyback problems.


thats what i thought too... first time id seen one without having additional driver issues...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Ready for your board, keep me posted.


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

ps2375 said:


> Have you cleaned the solder flux from around the injector drivers? Do you know how to do resistance checks to see if the drivers are good or bad or if the circuit is shorted?


im just gonna leave that up to the professionals. knowing my luck i would probably produce some kind of static electricity and fry something else on there.


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

well i been tracing all of my wiring and everything is correct. shes all yours paul.


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

update: the ecu got shipped to paul. so im just waiting on a word back. getting kind of nervous because the stim says everything is fine, but its obviously not.

-doing another test tonight. going to test the continuity/resistance between INJ1 Bank on the relay board to the injector harness. i want to see if they is any disturbances between that signal.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Stim tests fine, but that's not true load. It's not the 'regular' flyback failure that's common on 2.2s. I'm going to rig up a real load for it in the morning.


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

nice thanks paul.

i ran a resistance/continuity test tonight: both injectors grounds on INJ1 bank have continuity.:thumbup:


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## audib6neusp30 (Mar 2, 2008)

bringing this back from the dead:vampire:

-everything checked out fine with my ecu.

-my wiring is flawless, along with the relay board.

so im getting my ecu back anyday now and im just going to pray that it works.

p.s. thank you paul for all the help you have provided through the year. if this doesnt somehow work im probably going to donate the whole car to you


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