# My Phaeton's electrical problems are now long gone...



## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone*

My 2004 V8 Phaeton is near 25,000 miles. When I bought the car, there was an occasional electrical problem that resolved upon restarting. These various problems have been dicussed before in multiple threads. A funny thing happened somewhere after 12-15000 miles. *My Phaeton has not had any electrical problems over the last several months. Everything works flawlessly.*
Are other Phaeton owners having a similar experience?
speculation: Were the "electrical problems" really very complex systems learning driving habits and clearing fault signals after initial manufacture (e.g. the TPMS has to learn new tire pressures and wheel locations after a change).
The Jurgen Leohold presentation, Communication Requirements for Automotive Systems recently posted on this forum explains very well the complexity of the Phaeton's electrical system. After reading this presentation and driving my Phaeton nearly 25,000 miles, I am amazed at the vehicle's complexity and how well everything works. The Phaeton truly is a modern marvel.


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## BPVWPv8 (Dec 2, 2004)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (iluvmcr)*

I am not sure if what you are describing are really electrical problems; they sound more like software issues manifesting themselves as electrical issues, since that's what you see (i.e. the window that reverses when it closes). Software issues could fix themselves when you restart your car much like your Windows based computer appears to be fixed after you reboot it. I know we have some software gurus on this board (i'm just a cio) and they can confirm this theory. Once my radio and On-Star couldn't be heard. Another time my automatic trunk lid stopped working. But, mysteriously, they both regained their functionality after the car was restarted. 2 more times where I think software was to blame, not the electronics.
IMHO, electrical problems do not fix themselves or go away. As an example, I have had frustrations with an intermittent air bag fault warning. Finally the dealer identified the problem as the steering wheel wiring harness being too tight. So sometimes you won't know which it is until the diagnosis is completed.


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## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (BPVWPv8)*

Yeah, I agree. Probably what I described above are software problems. The term "electrical problems" was used somewhat loosely and interchangably with "software problems" in previous threads, probably because the authors didn't know at the time of writing if the problem was electrical or software and just wanted help with the problem.
In any event, I am glad my car works as well as it does at this point. I would appreciate knowing what your software people think.
It would be nice to tell prospective Phaeton buyers that the "electrical problems" they heard about are usually software problems and that these problems usually correct themselves, or can be easily corrected. That said, I guess I want to know from other Phaeton owners if my experience is similar to their experience - the problems initially encountered quit recurring over time.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (iluvmcr)*

Great to hear that things are OK. I was at the GTG , and I can surely tell you that a slight power drain on the batteries can really get things in a mess in a hurry. Many fault codes popped up in just a few minutes when the switch is left on without the engine running. Much of this due to the DRLs being left on while adjustments are made to our cars. For that reason, we turned them off. Many of us , just after purchasing our cars probably sat in it with the jukebox going at high decibels as we admired our music on this fine stereo. At the same time, we played around with all of the seat functions and sunroof movements, played around with the infotainment system trying to learn how it operates and establish settings all the while the stereo was running for background entertainment. Now that we have gotten used to all that and we use the car routinely for what it was designed for (going to work and back home), we are not placing such a drain on the batteries , faults have been cleared at the workshop (or by a VAG), and, yes, the car has learned from our interactions with it. Unfortunately, many cars were bought back because of these issues when in fact the only problem was a minor drain on the battery.


_Modified by dcowan699 at 9:13 PM 5-10-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (iluvmcr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iluvmcr* »_speculation: Were the "electrical problems" really very complex systems learning driving habits and clearing fault signals after initial manufacture (e.g. the TPMS has to learn new tire pressures and wheel locations after a change).

I think you have made a very sharp observation, and I agree with you.
There might be a few additional factors that have contributed to the various 'gremlins' that folks have experienced during the first few months of ownership - the gremlins that subsequently dissapear on their own:
*1)* The early production versions of the battery management controller (PN 3D0 915 181) with software versions 2500 or 2600 (letter suffixes A or B) did not seem to keep the voltage of the vehicle power supply battery - the left hand battery - as high as it should be. The result of this was that if a new owner sat in their car for half an hour or an hour, with the engine off and the ignition on, voltage would drop and some other controllers would start to generate spurious fault codes due to the low voltage condition. The newest version of the battery management controller, with letter suffix C and software version 2700, seems to do a better job of keeping the vehicle power supply voltage up.
Once an owner gets past the initial exploration and discovery period - the first two months - it's unlikely that they will sit in the car with the ignition on and the engine off for long enough to cause low voltage problems, so, it doesn't really matter for us "long term" owners if we have the 2500 or 2600 software. But, I think that was the cause of a lot of problems that folks encountered back in 2004.
*2)* The Phaeton techs at the dealerships have to be certain to keep a battery maintainer hooked up to the car at all times when they are working on it. There has been some question raised about whether hooking up the battery maintainer to the two terminals under the hood of the car is sufficient - we don't know if that is OK, or if the maintainer needs to be hooked up directly to the terminals of the vehicle power supply battery (the left hand battery). I hope to get an answer to this question in Dresden this month.
*3)* The owner manual - the North American English version, anyway - is "less than ideal". It is so full of baby-talk safety warnings that very few people stick with it and read it all the way through. In some respects, it does not properly explain how the car works. I think this has been the cause of quite a few problems. I note that none of the European Phaeton owners who participate in the German language forums have ever reported the kind of electrical glitches that we have encountered. This is probably because their owner manual is much more factual and 'to the point', and also because they have access to an electronic owner manual on the infotainment screen. As a result, they are better educated owners.
Michael


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
*1)* The early production versions of the battery management controller (PN 3D0 915 181) with software versions 2500 or 2600 (letter suffixes A or B) did not seem to keep the voltage of the vehicle power supply battery - the left hand battery - as high as it should be. The result of this was that if a new owner sat in their car for half an hour or an hour, with the engine off and the ignition on, voltage would drop and some other controllers would start to generate spurious fault codes due to the low voltage condition. The newest version of the battery management controller, with letter suffix C and software version 2700, seems to do a better job of keeping the vehicle power supply voltage up.
*2)* The Phaeton techs at the dealerships have to be certain to keep a battery maintainer hooked up to the car at all times when they are working on it. There has been some question raised about whether hooking up the battery maintainer to the two terminals under the hood of the car is sufficient - we don't know if that is OK, or if the maintainer needs to be hooked up directly to the terminals of the vehicle power supply battery (the left hand battery). I hope to get an answer to this question in Dresden this month.
Michael

Michael, is the software upgrade something that is done when one takes the vehicle in for scheduled maintenance, as a matter of routine? Or, does one have to request it or even pay to have it done?
When in Dresden, could you ask if the solar sunroof is configured to charge the batteries? If their answer is 'yes' is it charging both or just one battery?
Along the same line of thought, I saw a post you did a while back suggesting we ask for a charger from cars that come with them during shipping from the ports. Is this still recommended? If yes, which of the two batteries should it be connected to?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (Paldi)*

Hi Fred:
Good questions, and I regret I don't have a simple or easy answer for them. 

_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_...is the software upgrade something that is done when one takes the vehicle in for scheduled maintenance, as a matter of routine? Or, does one have to request it or even pay to have it done?

Right now, I don't even think there IS capability to flash-upgrade the software of the battery management controller, at least, not in the North American region, anyway. Some folks who have encountered persistent problems with low vehicle power supply battery voltage have had the controller replaced - that upgrades the software, for sure, but it is kind of like buying a new computer when you want to install a minor OS patch. I'm going to ask about this when I am in Dresden. In the meantime, you can stay out of trouble by ensuring that you have the engine running (idling) if you plan to have the ignition power on for any longer than about 5 minutes. If you ever see the message 'PLEASE START ENGINE' on the display between the speedometer and tachometer, then you have hit the first critical low voltage level. See this thread for additional discussion of this subject: Battery Discharge Issues. As to the cost of software upgrades - they are free, included in the 4 year warranty period.

_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_When in Dresden, could you ask if the solar sunroof is configured to charge the batteries? If their answer is 'yes' is it charging both or just one battery?
 
The solar sunroof is not available in North America. In any case, it does not charge the batteries, it just generates power to run the cabin air circulation fan, so that the air in the cabin does not stagnate and the car does not heat up like a solar oven. It brings in outside air, and exhausts the cabin air.

_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_...I saw a post you did a while back suggesting we ask for a charger from cars that come with them during shipping from the ports. Is this still recommended? If yes, which of the two batteries should it be connected to?

This I am not sure of. On the Golf and Jetta products, it is just plugged into the cigarette lighter outlet by the front ashtray, and it re-supplies the battery that way. I will have to ask if it would perform a similar function if it was plugged into one of the 12 volt outlets of the Phaeton. However (try not to laugh too hard here), I don't know if the fact that the Phaeton has special glass on it - to absorb solar radiation - would interfere with the use of this little battery charging gizmo. Again, I will have to ask about this.
Michael


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## vwguild (Feb 15, 2001)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (PanEuropean)*

Michael...I think some of the problems with the No. America Manuals may be secondary to the translation from German to English...If memory serves they are printed in Germany...


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (vwguild)*

Hi Peter:
No, it's not German to English translation that is causing the problem, because the Phaeton owner manual that is distributed in the UK is a first-class document, same as the original German language one.
The problem arises from the need to include numerous 'Caution - Coffee is Hot - do not spill the coffee on yourself or you might burn yourself - this could result in serious injury or death - also, don't drink too much coffee either - and don't put too much sugar in it or you will get fat - oh, and be sure to brush your teeth after you drink the coffee" type messages that are inserted all through the NAR manual by the legal department of VW of A.
Once anyone over the age of 8 reads half a dozen of those stupid messages, they just give up and stop reading the manual. No-one likes to have their time wasted, or to be talked to as if one was an idiot.
Michael


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## vwguild (Feb 15, 2001)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (PanEuropean)*

What was it that Shakespeare said about the lawyers????


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

*Lawyers*

To the new Phaeton owners out there:
Not only is the NA owners manual full of legal stuff that distracts from the key information, but there are some errors in it. Like how to change the settings on the passenger-side exterior rearview mirror park assist feature.
When in doubt: check the FAQ's here or 1-877-PHAETON.
~PC

_Modified by PhaetonChix at 12:29 PM 5-11-2005_


_Modified by PhaetonChix at 12:39 PM 5-11-2005_


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Hi Peter:
The problem arises from the need to include numerous 'Caution - Coffee is Hot - do not spill the coffee on yourself or you might burn yourself - this could result in serious injury or death - also, don't drink too much coffee either - and don't put too much sugar in it or you will get fat - oh, and be sure to brush your teeth after you drink the coffee" type messages that are inserted all through the NAR manual by the legal department of VW of A.

Michael























If you spill your coffee, does the manual mention any particular lawyer for burn litigation hearings? Perhaps the lawyer that demands that we press "ACCEPT" each and every day of our lives on the infotainment screen before I can change radio stations might could help.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (dcowan699)*

Well - I'm not too happy with the effects that the American legal system have had on all vehicles that are imported to North America, but I don't want to get into discussion of that, because it is a political issue, not an automotive one. Plus, I'm not a citizen of America, so it would not be right for me to criticize how the country functions.
I think that the lawyers at VW do the best they can, given the circumstances that they have to cope with. Mr. Hunt told us that the head of the legal department at VW was, in fact, an automotive enthusiast, and that this person really did everything he (or she, I'm not sure) could possibly do to avoid 'de-contenting' the cars.
However - I spend an equal amount of time on both sides of the Atlantic, and it sure does frustrate me to see Phaetons here that have integral phones (your choice, Bluetooth or not), owner manuals in HTML format that you can call up on the infotainment systems, start buttons that are actually installed at the factory (a revolutionary idea), and J523 control heads that you don't have to dismiss a warning on before using the car.
But - we might as well be realistic about it, moaning about this won't do much good, and I don't think VW is very happy with the constant potential for litigation either. It's a social problem, not an automotive one, and this ain't a good place to talk about social problems.
Michael


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## Franklin2 (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Lawyers (PhaetonChix)*

Tell me more about this passenger mirror settings problem. I am having trouble with that on our 2 week old car and I have not had time to take it back to the dealer for help. I looked thru the forum and did not see a Q&A on this. The manual is an exercise in patience, just like tax regulations.
Thanks, Larry


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

Allright guys. Enjoy those Phaetons as I'm outta here. Fred, please enjoy and take care of that Phaeton. You deserve it.








Bye.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (dcowan699)*

Ooops. I forgot to mention, I'll be on vacation next week. I'll have a lot of catching up when I get back. Probably won't touch a computer.


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

*Re: Lawyers (Franklin2)*

Larry,
To get the right hand side rear view mirror to tilt downward while backing up, leave your mirror adjuster in the "R" position. If you don't like the angle the mirror tilts to...ah...here's the tricky part.








First of all, all your other personal settings (seats, mirrors, etc) must be saved to your key fob. Changing the mirror setting modifies the default programming. Is your key "named" in the infotainment system? 
(Argh!







I tossed my notes on this when the Phaeton Touareg Luxury Ambassador program ended. All I remember is that it was kind of like doing the hookey pookey...very convoluted)
Without a car to run thru via trial and error on my end...1-877-Phaeton 
Just remember to keep the car running on engine power or on a maintainer while playing with settings. The Phaeton (and T-Reg) are power hungry. Nothing like getting the dreaded sunroof error code caused by low power.
~PC




_Modified by PhaetonChix at 9:47 AM 5-12-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Lawyers (Franklin2)*

Hi Larry:
Getting all the various settings for the car the way you want them, after you have taken delivery of the car, is not what any of us would call an 'intuitive' process... but, the good news is that you only have to go through the process once.
There is a VERY detailed explanation of the whole process, from start to finsh, at this post: Memory settings again. But, if all you are trying to do is get the passenger side mirror to behave the way you want it when you put the car in reverse - well, that's pretty simple.
First, I'll assume you have the different key fobs assigned to different drivers, and when you get into your Phaeton using *your *key fob (as opposed to your partner's key fob), everything else does what it is supposed to do.
To adjust the passenger mirror 'reverse' setting, start the car, put the mirror selector knob in the R (right) position, then shift into reverse. Now, with the car in reverse gear, adjust the passenger side mirror so it points to what you are interested in looking at - usually, that will be your rather expensive light alloy wheel at the right rear corner of the car. When you shift out of reverse, the mirror will return to the normal 'forward' setting. When you again shift into reverse, the mirror will return to the setting you just set up. You don't have to push any buttons to 'save' anything.
Hope this helps,
Michael


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

Michael,
It is possible to personalize or modify the angle the mirror tilts to in reverse and save it with the rest of your settings. And the steps to save this process are one of the great Phaeton mysteries I called PCC for help with while at a dealership in greater Boston.
~PC


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PhaetonChix)*

PC: 
You are correct, I agree with you 100%. As far as I can recall (being that I am about 4,000 miles from my car, and there are only 10 Phaetons in the country I am in), all you have to do to "set" the mirror position for reversing is just put the car in reverse, turn the knob to R, and adjust it. The car will then remember where you adjusted the mirror to, and return it to that angle next time you move the transmission selector to reverse.
I could be wrong - but I think that's all there is to it.
Michael


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## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
*1)* The early production versions of the battery management controller (PN 3D0 915 181) with software versions 2500 or 2600 (letter suffixes A or B) did not seem to keep the voltage of the vehicle power supply battery - the left hand battery - as high as it should be. The result of this was that if a new owner sat in their car for half an hour or an hour, with the engine off and the ignition on, voltage would drop and some other controllers would start to generate spurious fault codes due to the low voltage condition. The newest version of the battery management controller, with letter suffix C and software version 2700, seems to do a better job of keeping the vehicle power supply voltage up.
Michael

HEY MICHAEL - PLEASE HELP!
I started this thread talking about how trouble free my Phaeton is. Wouldn't you know it? A few days after shooting my mouth off, I go out to start my Phaeton and the electrical system is completely dead. Had to use the key in the door to open it (it was locked). The Aux battery started the car fine. However, the blower motor for the climate control would not stop even when the car was turned off and the key removed.
I drove the car the day before over 80 miles on the highway. Funny thing, while driving the day before, the radio did not want to turn off and the time clock was not correct for the first time ever - suggesting a low bus voltage based on the threads *two bad batteries and report on the first 3000 mile trip (battery controller discussion)*.
I am not sure what drained the battery and how fast. The problem appears to have occured fairly rapidly and in dramatic fashion - in spite of driving the car every day.
My guess is that a controller left something on and drained the battery.
The service tech at my dealership is seeing a boat load of fault codes and doesn't appear to know where to begin.
I feel like I the tech is going to start a shot-gun replacement process and I really don't want my car to be ripped into in that manner.
Having experience troubleshooting F-14 radar, inertial navigation, and missle fire control systems in the past, I appreciate of the comments 
you made on troubleshooting in other threads.
QUESTIONS:
1) In my situation (not really like letting the car sit for 3 days problem), do you think it would be a good idea to simply change the battery control unit to 3DO 915 181 C and the batteries, reset all codes/controllers, carefully observe the car, and monitor my own habits?
2) Or should I just let the tech do his job?
I guess i lack confidence in the tech's troubleshooting and do not want to go back and forth to my dealer, waisting my time.


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

Let the tech do his job. VW needs to document issues like yours. I think Joe in Cincinnati had similar problems; you might want to check with him.
Any sunroof and central locking error codes were caused by rapid power drain and need to be reset to the default.
Make sure the vehicle is properly PDI'd when they replace the battery control unit and batteries (if needed). At the tech event held during the GTG, two of the vehicles were found not to have been properly PDI'd, or at least from the electrical systems point of view. The car needs to be reset as if it were being prepped for delivery.
~PC


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## n-n-n-n (Apr 20, 2004)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (PanEuropean)*

Nothing will beat the "Be sure to remove your neck and head from the door frame area before closing the door. This could result in serious injury or death". I was DYING of laughter when I saw that.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (iluvmcr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iluvmcr* »_QUESTIONS:
1) In my situation (not really like letting the car sit for 3 days problem), do you think it would be a good idea to simply change the battery control unit to 3DO 915 181 C and the batteries, reset all codes/controllers, carefully observe the car, and monitor my own habits?
2) Or should I just let the tech do his job?

Hi Robert:
Sorry to hear about your sudden problem. This one is a little perplexing to me, because most of the folks who have reported the 'battery discharge' problem reported it in the first month or two of ownership - which kind of implies that they ran the battery down themselves, in the normal course of sitting in the car, reading the owner manual, and trying to figure out how things work. Obviously that is not the case with you - you have had the car for some time, it is (generally) trouble-free, and you know how it works.
We had quite a long discussion some months ago about battery discharge when the vehicle is not used. There were some theories floated about the Access and Start Control Module (the Kessy module) being a possible cause, but our "behind the scenes" Phaeton wizard in Dresden told us that whatever the cause of the problem was, it was not the Kessy. That discussion is here: Battery Discharge when Phaeton not used for several days?, but, read it with great skepticism. There is a continuation of that discussion (same subject) here: How long between starting to avoid draining the battery?, and, as you pointed out, two very specific threads about battery *re*-charging (as opposed to dis-charging) issues here: Report on first 3000 mile trip and Two bad batteries.
I really don't know what to suggest. I guess two questions come to mind, apropos of your specific problem: *1)* Did something cause your (presumably healthy and well charged) battery to discharge while the car was sitting for three days, or; *2)* Was your battery (the vehicle power supply battery, the one on the left hand side of the car) not well charged to begin with, and did it just fizzle out over the three days, without any extra-ordinarily drain being placed on it? Those two questions present kind of a 'fork in the road', as far as troubleshooting goes. 
If you have an electrical load present in the car when it is parked, then there's no point replacing anything at all until either you or your technician can identify what is draining the battery. My suggestion is that you first check to make sure you don't have anything plugged into the 12 volt DC power outlets in the car - there are 4 of them altogether, the cigarette lighter one beside the shift lever, one in the small bin between the two front seats, one below the rear seat HVAC controls, and one in the trunk of the car. If you don't find an unintentional (i.e. forgotten, like a radar detector, portable fridge, etc.) load on those outlets, I can tell you what your technician doesn't need to check, that is the Kessy unit. We know that is innocent, even though there was a lot of speculation about it in the earlier threads. You also don't need to worry about lights being left on, the Phaeton is smart enough to turn off any forgotten lights after one hour, regardless of door, lid, or switch position, if no-one has operated a door, lid, or push-button in the preceding hour.
If your problem stems from question 2) above - meaning, there is no extra-ordinary load present, but the vehicle power supply battery (left battery) is not getting charged up well when you drive the car - then, my troubleshooting instincts would take me to the battery management controller. What I found on my Phaeton was that the starter battery (the right hand side battery) was always being well charged up, but the vehicle power supply battery (left hand battery) seemed to be sucking the hind teat, so to speak, as far as getting its fair share of recharging current when the car is running. You can test this theory by hooking up a current measuring device to the left hand battery, and seeing what kind of current is being supplied to it when your car is idling. On my car, the left battery gets less current and charges up to an overall lower voltage level than the right battery. I haven't taken any action (meaning, replaced the battery management controller) yet, because I am waiting to find out if it is possible to flash upgrade the software in the controller, rather than replacing the thing. Hopefully I will get an answer to this question later in the week when I am in Dresden.
So far as how to team up with your Phaeton technician - my suggestion would be that you refer him to these threads, especially the Report on first 3000 mile trip and Two bad batteries ones, and then leave him or her alone to do the diagnostics. It's possible that something might show up as a fault code when a diagnostic scan is done. It's also possible that your technician might discover that your vehicle power supply battery is not getting its fair share of the recharge power - which, to the best of our *current *knowledge, seems to suggest replacement of the battery management controller. But, we have not figured this one out "for sure" just yet.
Hope this helps. I wish I could give you a definitive answer, but I don't have one yet. For sure, I will ask this weekend, at the German Phaeton Owner Get-Together in Dresden.
Michael


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## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (PanEuropean)*

Thanks for the help. It looks like my problems are much deeper than originally thought.
The tech says that 5 fuses are blown from electrically unrelated circuits. She worked on it for 2 days and can't figure out how to stop the Heater/AC blower motor. According to my service manager, the VW engineers have been contacted and they are stumped.
To make matters worse, the tech tore my car apart and then left on vacation for 9 days. I was told she is the only Phaeton certified tech and the car would not be touched for another 9 days. The car is not drivable. I want to keep you posted on this problem but it won't be for another week.
To me, there are power subsystems, controllers, wiring, and electrical/electronic end components. If you have 5 electrically unrelated circuits all fail at the same time, with blown fuses (a short) you can bet they are related by a bad wiring bundle. If you can't remove power from a device then its being supplied by power from a short. Of course, I can't tell the tech this at present.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (iluvmcr)*

Wow - I don't know what to say.
Your hypothesis about the blower motor getting power from a short is possible - but at the same time, the continuing blower motor operation could be totally unrelated. I wonder if resetting either the J255 Climatronic controller or the J523 Front Information Display Control Head - by entering a value of 0 in adaptation channel 00 - might clear the blower motor problem? Just a shot in the dark.
There is another thread that has just started up in the last few days about chafed wiring bundles, it is here: Engine died last night (Engine quits when steering at full lock). I don't know if that might shed any light on the problems you are having.
Michael


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## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Your hypothesis about the blower motor getting power from a short is possible - but at the same time, the continuing blower motor operation could be totally unrelated. I wonder if resetting either the J255 Climatronic controller or the J523 Front Information Display Control Head - by entering a value of 0 in adaptation channel 00 - might clear the blower motor problem? Just a shot in the dark.
Michael

Thanks Michael. I appreciate all of your suggestions. I will check with the tech on these suggestions.
Just a side note - My dealer has been very apologetic. The owner gave me his Phaeton to use as long as required. I know he was planning to drive it to Atlanta (from Indiana) in the near future. My dealer appears to be standing behind the product.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (iluvmcr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iluvmcr* »_My dealer appears to be standing behind the product.

That's great to hear - it makes all the difference in the world. If you have a nice dealer, then just about everything else that can possibly happen becomes just a minor nuisance.
Maybe you might get lucky, and find out that the Phaeton tech took her vacation in Dresden?








Michael


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## iluvmcr (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_I wonder if resetting either the J255 Climatronic controller or the J523 Front Information Display Control Head - by entering a value of 0 in adaptation channel 00 - might clear the blower motor problem? Just a shot in the dark.
Michael

Just a follow up note on my Phaeton's electrical problems. The battery was being drained because my HVAC blower motor was always on. The J255 Climatronic Controller had to be replaced and, once again, my Phaeton's electrical problems are long gone. Everything appears to be working well.
A note about my service experience - My car was at the dealer for 14 days. For 10 days the dealership's only Phaeton certified tech was on vacation. Very frustrating. I told the dealership owner he was not going to sell many Phaetons with that kind of service and they need 2 Phaeton techs. Keep in mind that I bought 6 cars from this guy, including the Phaeton and a V10 TDI Toureg.
However, the dealership owner gave me his Phaeton to drive while mine was being worked on. I had to put about 1000 miles on it. He was OK with that and personally drove my car for about 40 miles on various errands to make sure my car was fixed. Then they *completely* detailed my Phaeton, including wax and buff, tire shine, and carpet shampoo. They also offered to let me drive any vehicle on the lot while the tech was on vacation, including the new Jetta. The dealership owner assures me he will have a 2nd tech and I believe he will.
So, in retrospect, I think it is important to have an ongoing relationship with a dealership, no matter what the make or model. As vehicles become more complex this will become more important. Even though a service deficiency existed, my dealership appeared very concerned about my service experience and responded appropriately. A complex machine is going to break on occasion. I'm OK with that as long as the manufacturer and the dealership stand behind their product.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (iluvmcr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iluvmcr* »_...I think it is important to have an ongoing relationship with a dealership, no matter what the make or model. As vehicles become more complex this will become more important. Even though a service deficiency existed, my dealership appeared very concerned about my service experience and responded appropriately. A complex machine is going to break on occasion. I'm OK with that as long as the manufacturer and the dealership stand behind their product.

A very wise observation, Robert. I have a great VW dealer, and that makes all the difference in the world for me, whether we are talking about a Phaeton or a Golf.
I'm glad to hear that the problem got fixed, and that you are back on the road again.
Michael


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## phaeton Also (Feb 12, 2005)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (iluvmcr)*

This is Phaeton also or rodger. I had the controller replaced after I reported on the 3000 mile trip. Since I had the tech replace the original controller with the C version I have not had a problem. We now have 7000 mile on the car and are loving it. We just took a trip of 1000 miles and had perfect performance. 23 miles per gallon and no electrical problems. After the controller was replaced we did have to reset all our personal settings. Thanks to this forum we were able to inform our tech of common electrical complaints and he just went to work and fixed them. I hope this will work for you.


_Modified by phaeton Also at 3:49 PM 5-31-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (phaeton Also)*

Rodger:
Thanks very much for following up and providing that report. As a result of your experience, and thanks to your very thoughtful follow-up report, I went to my VW dealer and had my battery management controller (the J367 controller at address 71, PN 3D0-915-181) replaced today - I had a 'B' revision controller with the 2600 software, now I have a 'C' revision controller with the 2700 software. So, that closes out the plan I made about 6 weeks ago, when I wrote this post in the Two bad batteries thread.
I am optimistic that this will turn out to be the 'silver bullet' fix for electrical discharge problems on Phaetons. The only thing that prevents me from thinking that this is 'for sure' the silver bullet fix is that we are now out of winter season, so loads on the electrical system are down a bit, compared to what they are when the weather is colder. That notwithstanding, I feel about 99% sure that this should solve the problem of the Vehicle Power Supply Battery not fully charging up - which seems to be the root cause of all the electrical problems various folks have reported.
I took a zillion photos of the process, I will write up a post about how the controller is changed, where it is, etc. as soon as I get a bit of time. In the meantime, below is a picture of the controller - it is hidden behind the Vehicle Power Supply Battery (left side battery), you can't see it unless you remove the battery.
Michael
*J367 Battery Management Controller*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (PanEuropean)*

*Archival Note: * Here is a post that explains in detail how to replace the controller shown in the photo above: J367 Battery Monitoring Controller Replacement


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## dadler (May 14, 2005)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (PanEuropean)*

Do not know if I am having the same issues. I just returned from a nice two week trip with my Phaeton through Montreal and Maine. No problem and great car! A few days after being home the car would not unlock with my key, but the valet key would work. Um? The car started very roughly with the valet key and then all sorts of strange message apeared on the heads-up display. Error messages about the raising of the car. All setting were lost on the system like it rest to factory level...The all is is well.


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## Eyecare (Apr 20, 2006)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (iluvmcr)*

Bummer. I came back from two weeks in Hawaii and noticed that my key remote doesn't open the doors anymore. The car still starts (after a small delay). I suspect the aux battery is dead although it might be the voltage controller as well. I kept my car running for a few hours but the security lights on the doors died out within an hour of shutting it down again. I haven't visited the local VW dealer since getting my car but it looks like I'll need to check them out. It'll also give me an opportunity to see what VW here in Germany covers (if anything) since my car has a VWoA warranty.
Speaking of warranties, I noticed from the fine print that VWoA may not cover defects unless you've kept your car serviced as required. This places some of us who've bought non-certified used Phaetons at a disadvantage as previous service work may or may not be annotated in whatever paperwork came with the car. I had a Phaeton manual in my car (US spec and bought in PA) that was in German and had no service information annotated at all. I bought a US manual over the internet that obviously belonged to a different Phaeton and had some service info annotated within. I bought my car with 22.5k miles on it but have no way of knowing whether the 20k service was done or not. Just something to keep in mind.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone (Eyecare)*

Have a look at the technical bulletin that was just recently posted on the J367 Battery Monitoring Controller Replacement thread. Although this would not be the first thing I would suspect as the cause of your problem, it may be of interest to you to read that TB.
It is unlikely that the vehicle power supply battery (left battery) is dead. If it was dead (or had a very low charge, less than 12 volts), you would be seeing spurious warning messages on the display between the speedometer and tachometer.
You don't have to worry about lack of documentation for service history. All VW dealers in North America are tied into a common computer system that records all work ever done on the car. If you contact Phaeton Customer Care in North America, they can probably make your service records available to your local dealer in Germany - assuming the local dealer in Germany hasn't got them already via the same computer network.
There is no reason why the 20K mile service would not have been done in North America by the previous owner - it's free.
As for the warranty - the warranty on your NAR Phaeton is only valid within North America. VW of America *may *(I emphasize the word 'may') elect to extend warranty coverage to you in Europe, but they are certainly under no obligation to do so. The warranty documentation explicitly states that the warranty is only valid in North America. VW in Germany will not take any responsibility for warranty on your vehicle, because warranties are issued by the importer of the vehicle (in your case, VW of A), not by the manufacturer of the vehicle - and, in Germany, the new car warranty on any VW is only one year.
Michael


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## Eyecare (Apr 20, 2006)

I get spurious warning messages, mostly about the car level and the need for maintenance work of some sort or another. They go away after running the engine for a bit.


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## Eyecare (Apr 20, 2006)

*Re: (Eyecare)*

I took it to a local VW dealer here in Heidelberg and they covered the repair stating that it's still under warranty. They also recoded my extra keys free of charge. That was a pleasant surprise. The only problem I had at this dealership was trying to convey to them that I didn't need a loaner car. My German stinks.


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## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

I'm in the process of changing my defective battery management controller (B version) to a new controler (C version). Would the right battery needs to be disconnected or just the left one?

Regards,

Salah


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Salah,

If you haven't already done the job, I strongly recommend disconnecting and later reconnecting both batteries according the factory procedure (see Jason's thread: Battery replacement procedure).

Chris


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## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Hello Chris,

I haven't yet as I'm still waitng for the part to arrive. Many thanks for the advice.

Regards,

Salah


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## ddantes (May 14, 2012)

Hi,

I don't know where to post my problem and because i don't want to open another thread, i'll use this one.

2 years ago i have changed my batteries (both of them) with the correct ones (AGM on left, normal on right). At that moment, the dealer said the charging is ok 13,7v on left and 14,6v on right.
Now, after 2 years, i have made a trip of 3 hours or so on highway and then some heavy traffic. All normal. I stopped at a grocery store for 5 mins, then when got back in car, it didn't want to start...the starter was moving veeery slowly then died. Lights and everything were working ok. It happend i had a voltmeter in my trunk and mesured the batteries...on right 12,2v on left 12v sharp... I have made the emergency start and it started. Measured again...13,4v on both batteries..very low on my oppinion.
I drove for another 20 mins, then got home. Stopped the car then started it again...flawlessly...Measured again, 13,4-13,5v... Went in the house and after 3 hours or so, came back, car started ok, measured and i had 13,6v on left, 14,4v on right....
Next day morning, started the car ok, measured and had 13,8v on left 15,5v on right...

What i did...went to a workshop and replaced the voltage regulator on the alternator, changed some other stuff like the belt and so on. Measured the voltages and we had 13,7v on left and 14,6v on right. Got the battery checked and both are good, no recharge needed.
Now...after a week or so, i started to measure again..and i have always (no matter the generator temperature) 13,5 to 13,8v on left and 14,6 to 15,1v on right battery. 
I have checked with a friend with vcds the measuring blocks of the battery regulator (i have 3D0 915 181 C) and the strange thing is that the current from the MB 2.1 (starter battery current drawn) is showing something like 0.7A or 0 during driving, but the MB 2.2 (comfort battery current drawn) is always 0 no matter what. Also on engine MB 57 or similar i don't have the alternator load..in fact everything is empty. 
I have another battery controller also with C at the end and some relays (432 and 100) and i'll change them also in order to eliminate those also.

Bottom line is that the instrument cluster is showing 14v, but the left battery is getting 13,6v usually (kinda low) and 14,9v the right battery...a little bit high...

What should i look for? What can be the cause?

Thanks,
Daniel


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Hi Daniel,
With regards to the voltage of both batteries, do not worry much about them. The Phaeton is a very clever machine, and depending on the state of charge of the batteries, the times that you start the car during the day, the outside temperature, the time that the engine has been running, the HVAC current draw, whether the glow plugs are required for starting or not, and a miriad of things, it will adapt the charging voltage accordingly.
I am telling you that because I have monitored the voltage of both batteries using VCDS Scope tool under several circumstances and I have seen a number of different voltage figures from high to low, to even constant if the starter battery was fully charged. Also, bear in mind that the voltmeter in the instrument cluster shows a conditioned signal, not the actual alternator or battery voltage.
Concerning the MVBs try engine MVB 60.1, that should give you the alternator output in watts. I do not know what to say about the battery current draw, I have been wondering about it a few times too.
So provided that your Phaeton fires up without difficulties, and both batteries remain charged, do not worry much. I would also suggest not to start changing parts unless you are sure that they are faulty. 
Also, if you drive your Phaeton for short trips I would recommend to purchase a small battery charger in order to top up both batteries every forthnight or so. Phaetons are very electric power hungry machines, even more TDIs due to the glow plugs and powerful starter motor. That way I am sure that it will not let you down any more.
I hope it helps.

Gabriel


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## ddantes (May 14, 2012)

Hi Gabriel,

The battery controller i had it for spare from a friend so i just swapped it in order to check if there is any improvment.

I'm raising these questions because batteries need recharging and they need a 14.4v ideally in order to get into charging stage. The 13.6-13.8v it's the float stage...just maintaining the battery, not charging.
AGM batteries need to stop the charging stage at 80-90% charged or so and enter float stage in order to slowly go to 100%. For normal batteries you can go to whatever until 100%, but then enter float stage 13.8-14.0v from charging stage at 14.4-15.0v or even 15.6v maximum (2.6v/element) Ideally is 2.4v-2.45v/element...

That's why on P we cannot use normal batteries on left, because it will never charge or will never go to at least to float stage.

But...the questions still exists because it should go to 14.4v until it reaches 80-90% charged...and it's never happening. My left AGM battery it's at 40-50% charged and the tester is saying good & recharge .... so normally the P should go to 14.4v...
Anyway...it's strange...

Daniel


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Hi again Daniel,
Yes, I get your point now.
I have been through some of the tests I performed a while ago with the VC-Scope tool and these are some of my findings with the engine running:
- The on board power supply battery charging voltage is almost a flat line sitting at 14.7-8V appart from some ripples here and there.
- The starter battery charging voltage is more like a sinewave oscillating from 14.38v to 14.81V.
- Once, after a three hour trip I managed to spot the float stage on the starter battery at 13.6V.
So, as you can see these figures a somehow higher that yours... 
Other than a faulty battery monitoring unit I can only think that perhaps the low voltage reading on the left battery is due to the fact that the glow plugs might be running if the engine has just been fired. If that is the case, check the left battery voltage after a short trip, once the engine has warmed up fully.
A fellow member, Perfrej, had some issues with the charging voltage of the left hand battery too. After very thorough investigations he found out that the problem was a corroded cable that run from the B+ pole on the alternator, towards the battery junction where the jump starting knob is. Perhaps it is worth checking too.

Gabriel


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## ddantes (May 14, 2012)

Hmmm...it seems that i do have a problem....

What i have done:
-new batteries -2 years ago
-starter motor rebuild...1 year ago 
-regulator relay inside the generator + generator check..in perfect working order
-battery management module changed
-all relays on left battery changed for testing purposes (without the parallel relay but it's working)

I didn't checked the connections (inside plenum chamber and inside the trunk) but the cable on the alternator looked fine, at least what could be seen there at the alternator. Also the cables inside the trunk and at a first look it's not cracked or something...

For the right battery everything seems ok...for the left one...no... 
I'll investigate further...


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Daniel,
Both batteries, at the ground cable, near the negative post have a thin brown wire bolted onto it. These wires are used by the central electrics control unit to monitor the battery voltage and feedback the alternator and the battery management module accordingly.
Check them, it might well be that that particular cable at the left hand side battery is not properly attached onto the ground cable or that the mating surfaces are dirty.
I hope it helps.

Gabriel


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## ddantes (May 14, 2012)

Hi Gabriel,

I saw those thin wires and they look ok...i'll check them again to be 100% sure.
The thing is that at the left battery i have a 13.6v, at T22 (or T2 ?) i have 13.8v and directly on the alternator 14.1v but i don't know the exact load or consumers if they were on or not. The problem i just found is that the connector is very hot meaning like you cannot stick your finger more than half a second! 
This is a sign of bag connection. The hot point was on the cable where is sertized with the metal piece where those 2 cables are screwed in place. On the screws they were normal but on that point it is very hot. There is no sign of corrosion, no sign of bad insulation..nothing...just is very hot.
And the fact that i have a 0.2v drop from the battery to this point and a 0.3v drop from this to the alternator...it's a sign.. I will be more than happy if i reach 14.0v or 13.9v at the battery after a small rework of this cable...

I'll keep searching...

Thanks,
Daniel


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

That is good news Daniel!
Yeap, I fully agree. If there is a hot spot on a electrical conductor is a clear indication of high resistance at that particular point, which as you know implies a voltage drop. Perhaps it is not a matter of corrosion in your case, but it might well be that the wire is not soldered correctly onto the connector.
I am sure that you are now on working on the right direction, so go for it! :thumbup:
Good luck.

Gabriel


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## ddantes (May 14, 2012)

Forgot to report..... that was the problem. In fact the cable and the connection looked good but probably inside it was a problem. Now i have only a 0.2v drop from the generator to the battery. Still i have 13.88v at the battery but it's ok since now after a 5h drive i have a fully charged left battery. More than that...the car has improved the run considerably and also the fuel consumption has dropped at least 1l/100km.
I could not imagine until now how much the influence of a correct voltage counts. The regulator relay and the cable did the trick.

Thanks again to this great forum.
Daniel


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Can you pinpoint the connector you're talking about?


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Daniel,
What did you do to the cable or connector?

Gabriel


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## ddantes (May 14, 2012)

Hi all,
Sorry for late answer...

The connector is at the cable between the generator and the connection where you jump start the car, and goes to the plenum chamber where connects 2 cables, one for the fuses box and one to the cable that goes into the trunk. It is next to the cable that goes to the starter motor that is a completly different circuit.
The problem was between the cable and the metal piece that actually goes to the plenum chamber.

In the picture below is when the isolation was off and before making the repair. The repair consists in extra wires added 1cm up and 1cm down the cable, soldered very well and no cuts or changes made to the original cable so the extra wires made as a coil and soldered in place take the extra load. Now it's ok, the wire is cold, no voltage drop and so on.










http://i59.tinypic.com/34oxzf7.jpg


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

ddantes said:


> Still i have 13.88v at the battery but it's ok since now after a 5h drive i have a fully charged left battery.


Hi Daniel,
This morning I measured the left battery voltage using a multimeter. Below are the results I got:
- Voltage shortly after starting the engine measured at the battery terminals: 14.4V.
- Voltage five minutes after starting the engine measured at the battery terminals: 14.3V.
- Voltage five minutes after starting the engine measured at the + and - jump start posts: 14.8V.
When did you measure the battery voltage? After your 5h trip while the engine was still running or was the engine switched off?

Gabriel


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## ddantes (May 14, 2012)

Hi Gabriel,

All the time when i measure it it's 13.8 to 14.05. Nothing more, nothing less.
Why i don't have 14.4v....i don't know but for sure the generator is not giving more.

Thanks for your measurements. I'll try to keep an eye at them to see if there is any evolution.


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## rangsudh (Mar 20, 2013)

*Help, I am having a similar problem*

Hello Daniel, Gabriel or anyone else:

I think my 2004 W12 might be having the same problem that Daniel had and (partially) fixed. So I'm trying to find out a little more to help me debug:

1) In post #50, Daniel commented that "The regulator relay and the cable did the trick." I wanted to ask if indeed the ''regulator relay needed to be fixed to solve the overall problem *or* was the subsequent fix to the cable/connector in the engine compartment the only fix needed?

If indeed the regulator relay needs to be fixed as part of the solution, what is its part number, where is it located and is it simple to replace?

2) Some comments mention that the left-hand-side AGM battery needing ~14.4V to charge to ~85% and then dropping down to ~13.7V to enter float stage and get to ~100% charged. Assuming the alternator always puts out 14.4V, how is the reduction to 13.7V accomplished? Is there some series resistor somewhere to reduce the voltage or does the alternator produce two different voltages? In either case, is there a relay to choose between the 14.4V and 13.7V to feed to the battery? (If so, is this relay called the 'regulator relay'?)

Thanks in advance!


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

rangsudh said:


> 1) In post #50, Daniel commented that "The regulator relay and the cable did the trick." I wanted to ask if indeed the ''regulator relay needed to be fixed to solve the overall problem *or* was the subsequent fix to the cable/connector in the engine compartment the only fix needed?
> 
> If indeed the regulator relay needs to be fixed as part of the solution, what is its part number, where is it located and is it simple to replace?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


I don't think Daniel is active on this forum. You could try sending him a PM. 

The following remarks are just me trying to compile what he wrote:

In post #42, he mentioned he was going to replace relays 100 and 432. J579 has the number 432 on it and J580 has the number 100 on it . Those are battery switch-over relays. 

Here is the fuse thread. In post #16, you will find a downloadable .PDF file with most if not all fuses and relays:

https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3001224

In post #46 he writes "-regulator relay inside the generator + generator check..in perfect working order". 

In post #50, he says it's all fixed. He is asked which cable or connector he fixed.

In post #53, he shows a cable he repaired by adding more wires to it. 



rangsudh said:


> 2) Some comments mention that the left-hand-side AGM battery needing ~14.4V to charge to ~85% and then dropping down to ~13.7V to enter float stage and get to ~100% charged. Assuming the alternator always puts out 14.4V, how is the reduction to 13.7V accomplished? Is there some series resistor somewhere to reduce the voltage or does the alternator produce two different voltages? In either case, is there a relay to choose between the 14.4V and 13.7V to feed to the battery? (If so, is this relay called the 'regulator relay'?)
> 
> Thanks in advance!


I think that it's handled by the battery controller. What version of controller do you have? Mine are both suffix D and I have problems keeping my left batteries charged but neither of mine are daily drivers.


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## rangsudh (Mar 20, 2013)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> I don't think Daniel is active on this forum. You could try sending him a PM.
> 
> The following remarks are just me trying to compile what he wrote:
> 
> ...


Thank you so much. I have also just PMed Daniel.

Just like Daniel, I am seeing low alternator voltage between 13.8 and 14.05V (when revving the engine). But I am not able to locate the hotspot he alluded to, since the photo from his post #53 is missing. I do understand which cable he is talking about but a picture would help to see if I have a similar hot spot in the cable.

As far as I could find out, the Phaeton alternator has an inbuilt regulator and does not have any relays inside it. So could not find a part number or procedure.

Is there any way to check the voltage coming out of the alternator directly? It seems to be very much hidden behind the alternator and not sure it has any exposed metal terminals even if I could get under the car and accessed the backside of the alternator.

My battery controller is suffix D with software version 2800. So that should not be the issue. The problems are recent, as the left side battery has aged but is still good. However, I have never bothered to check the charging voltage before, so not sure if it was always 14.05V or has been degrading over time. I suspect a new battery will be a temporary fix if there is not enough alternator voltage to keep it charged. I do have a battery charger but am not willing to use it every day as I believe I do enough driving to keep the battery charged, which was the case for many years.

I did check the smoothing capacitor and it seems fine, no parasitic drains either.

I wonder if the serpentine belt is loose and slipping, which causes lower output voltage? Is that even something that happens in any car?

Thanks.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

rangsudh said:


> Just like Daniel, I am seeing low alternator voltage between 13.8 and 14.05V (when revving the engine). But I am not able to locate the hotspot he alluded to, since the photo from his post #53 is missing. I do understand which cable he is talking about but a picture would help to see if I have a similar hot spot in the cable. Thanks.


Right now I am using EDGE and the picture _is_ missing, but I checked out this page on Internet Explorer 11 and the picture was still there.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

rangsudh said:


> Thank you so much. I have also just PMed Daniel.
> 
> Just like Daniel, I am seeing low alternator voltage between 13.8 and 14.05V (when revving the engine). But I am not able to locate the hotspot he alluded to, since the photo from his post #53 is missing. I do understand which cable he is talking about but a picture would help to see if I have a similar hot spot in the cable.
> 
> ...


I think he was referring to the cable getting hot. More specifically, the connector on the cable. 

It would be very hard to check the voltage coming right out of my alternator. I'd probably have to put a ring terminal on the end of my multimeter lead and attach that to the alternator so I could check voltage without shorting anything out. The voltage has to be correct at the battery end of the cable anyway. If it's not correct there, you go upstream to see if there are any losses in the cable.

I plan to check continuity on the power and ground cables while my batteries are completely disconnected. I can even compare readings from with two identical Phaetons. I don't think my problems are the cables but I might as well check. I don't think the Bentley has any resistance specifications for the cables but I'll check. Other wiring diagrams and schematics show stuff like that, but I haven't ever checked to see if the Bentley Current Flow Diagrams have that info. 


The poly V belt checking procedure says to check for cracks, oil on it and separation of the layers. The procedure says to put a ratchet on the crank pulley to turn it but if the belt is cracked you can probably tell without having to rotate the engine. I didn't notice anything about checking tension but that was probably left out because the automatic tensioner should take care of that. I guess they figure the mechanics can figure out if the tensioner needs replacement. 


I'm not sure what engine you have so I looked up the W12. I had the dealer mechanic replace the serpentine belt, tensioner and a pulley on one of mine. (I didn't know it had two pulleys but the other one was still good anyway.) The mechanic showed me how my belt was all cracked at the annual inspection so I had him replace it after I bought the parts. The hydraulic cylinder on the old tensioner was still too stiff to compress by hand.


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## rangsudh (Mar 20, 2013)

My belt seems to be in good shape. I have a W12.

Thanks for the info and please post if you do find a resistance spec for the cables.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

rangsudh said:


> My belt seems to be in good shape. I have a W12.
> 
> Thanks for the info and please post if you do find a resistance spec for the cables.


You're welcome,

I don't think the wiring diagrams have any specifications like that. I had the Bentley manual open last night and didn't even think to look. I am going to compare readings on mine but they are both 2004s so they are both probably about the same. 

As both of my starter batteries were both fully charged I wouldn't think there would be much of a problem with the battery cables on a typical Phaeton. 

Since it's getting warmer (apart from this week) , it will probably be next winter by the time I find out if anything I tried made a difference. I came down with a cold this week so I am not planning on doing anything to my Phaetons until next week except possibly order parts. 

I think if I was restoring a Phaeton, I would have the alternator rebuilt by a shop that does that work. See what they think about tweaking the regulator voltage.


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## Juhani (Sep 15, 2012)

rangsudh said:


> Hello Daniel, Gabriel or anyone else:
> 
> I think my 2004 W12 might be having the same problem that Daniel had and (partially) fixed. So I'm trying to find out a little more to help me debug:
> 
> ...


If you dont drive continiously for days no need to worry about system not going float mode. That is important feature in boat connected to shore power for days or weeks.
Battery controller J367 does nothing to left battery. It only takes care of right battery. Newer cars typically have better battery controllers those you have to reset when you install new battery, much like again battery computer in boat where you can read capacity left or time to full etc. 
check these:
https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5943810-Aaargh!-Battery-Mystery
https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...ry-charging-issue-Another-known-Phaeton-fault
https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?9283299-New-attack-on-battery-drain-in-cold-weather-!


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## rangsudh (Mar 20, 2013)

1) Thanks Juhani -- I also got your PM. It is clear that the Phaeton LHS battery has no provision to go to float mode after being fully charged (unlike the boat batteries you describe). This is fine as no car will be operated (and thus its batteries charged) for more than a few hours continuously.

2) I'd like to document some things for future reference:

The LHS (on-board power supply) battery is charged by direct always-on cable connection to the vehicle alternator, just like most cars of that era. There is no sophisticated battery charging algorithm used for the LHS battery. If your alternator is delivering insufficient voltage to the LHS battery OR the vehicle is insufficiently driven, then the LHS battery may not fully charge. This could then result in electrical gremlins and WILL result in early battery failure.

As Juhani said, the J367 Battery Management Controller is used only to charge the RHS (starter) battery. The Phaeton SSP 272 technical documentation PDF describes how this works. The J367 usually charges the starter battery by connecting the alternator/LHS-battery output to it via internal transistor circuitry that provides the correct "float" voltage of 13.x V. If J367 detects that RHS battery is too depleted to be topped off using just "float" charging, it uses an internal step-up DC-DC converter to provide a higher absorption charging voltage of 14.x or 15.x V to the RHS battery.

On the other hand, the LHS battery will need absorption charging much more often, as opposed to just being topped after an engine start. Putting a non-AGM flooded battery in there means it is MORE likely to be undercharged, degrading the battery even faster than AGM. This is further exacerbated because Phaeton alternators and/or wiring frequently degrade with age [or faults, explained later] and end up providing just <14V charging voltage to the LHS battery, nowhere close to the "absorption" voltage needed of 14.xV. Secondly, given the higher load currents, battery currents, relays/fuses and arcing possibilities near the LHS battery, a flooded battery with liquid electrolyte [either sealed/vented or unsealed] could pose a larger safety hazard of explosion due to gassing. The LHS battery also has to be tilted at a more severe angle to get it in and out, and unsealed flooded batteries could leak electrolyte. Lastly, an AGM battery can sometimes accept charge and recover to fully-charge state faster [without excessive temperatures or gassing], which means higher charging current, which non-AGM (i.e. vented) flooded batteries cannot support. Since the LHS battery is fed directly from an alternator capable of 190A sustained and 300A peak, if it outputs a high-enough charging voltage, it could drive dangerously-high charging currents into the LHS battery and that is unsafe.

In normal operation, the RHS battery will not be discharged much unless there are cold starts or warm-but-frequent starts draining it [possibly due to a chronically depleted LHS battery calling for emergency start assist]. But even with considerable discharge, the RHS battery can usually charge back to 100% full as the J367 will drive it with a stepped-up absorption voltage rather than float voltage. This means that a short-drive can charge it up even if the alternator voltage is severely degraded and the RHS battery considerably drained. This explains why our RHS batteries almost never go bad and almost never need early replacement -- they are being charged by a smart, regulated charger inside the J367, a luxury not afforded to the LHS battery.

From the various early posts in this and other threads, including some by PanEuropean, it is IMPLIED that insufficient charging of the LHS battery could be due to a faulty J367 (suffix A/v2500 or B/v2600 are faulty; C/2700 and D/2800 are good). But how can that be if the LHS battery is ALWAYS directly charged by the alternator and not by the J367?

Well, as usual with the Phaeton, the answer is very subtle. The J367 recall TB actually states the following:

"No Start, Load Intervention Faults, Electrical Consumers Not Functioning Properly
Vehicle will not start under normal starting procedure (not emergency start procedure). Load intervention faults and electrical consumers not functioning properly.

Technical Background
The Battery Manager Control Module -J367- may lose CAN communication and prevent the starter battery from being charged due to a software issue. This condition may also cause the On-Board accessory battery not to charge properly."

Note that the primary problem description is failure of normal start and improper charging of the RHS battery. It is only the last sentence which mentions that somehow the LHS battery MAY also fail to charge due to a faulty J367.

So what seems to be happening is that a faulty J367 fails to charge the RHS battery. Every time the vehicle attempts to start, even normally, this condition causes the battery paralleling relay to kick in and augment the RHS battery with the LHS battery. Over time, this weakens the LHS battery and prevents it from charging back fully. Indeed, if the battery paralleling relay stays on indefinitely rather than a brief augmentation period, we may expect even more havoc, as the two batteries are not supposed to be shorted together often, especially because we then have the differing LHS charging voltage and RHS charging voltages shorted together. Over time, the weakened LHS battery begins to cause electrical gremlins and deteriorates further, a vicious cycle.

Thus, for some people, electrical gremlins due to LHS battery MIGHT be solved by changing J367 even though J367 directly charges only the RHS battery.

3) For many, there is an additional possible failure mode, already alluded to above:

The alternator in some Phaetons fails to deliver >14 V to the LHS battery, let alone the 14.4V to 14.7V needed for proper absorption charging. There can be multiple causes for this:

Faulty regulation inside the alternator is one possibility. Seems more common for TDI owners. Phaetons with TDI engine, such as Juhani's, have the alternator gear-driven and placed in the V of the engine, so it is possible to reach it somewhat more easily than other engines. But modifying the alternator regulator to trick it into supplying higher voltages is pretty much impossible for W12 cars, given the alternator location.

In some cases, the cable from the alternator increases in resistance at the TV22 junction and the charging voltage reaching the LHS battery (and the J367 in order to charge the RHS battery) degrades below 14V. This does not affect the RHS battery charging much, as the weakened voltage is boosted/regulated by J367 to 14V/15V.

By far, the most common failure mode for non-TDI owners is coolant leaks at the alternator that damage the regulator. (Relocating the coolant ports to the bottom of the alternator [instead of the top] would have been a nice defensive design, as the dripping coolant would not have entered the alternator electronics. Higher quality O-rings should have been used, preferably Viton, to prevent the leaks in the first place, but I suspect that even Viton may not hold up for long at the high engine temps of the W12. So the best solution may have been to weld the metal connection tubes to the alternator ports, since anyway a rubber hose with clamps is used beyond the tubes.)

Bottom-line: Many Phaetons suffer from a charging problem, not a load or battery problem!

Undercharging can severely degrade battery life and hurt the alternator itself. See here:








Automotive Alternators vs. Deep Cycle Batteries by Compass Marine How To






pbase.com





Insufficient charging voltage <14V reaches the LHS battery in the absence of any step-up regulation and adverse/improper temperature compensation. This is not enough for the absorption charging required by a heavily depleted battery. Even for a lightly depleted battery, the low charging voltage may require driving the car for a few non-stop hours per day to get back to full charge. But such long running times cannot be counted on for all owners. This means our LHS batteries are frequently in a partial state of charge (PSOC). This is murder on the battery's lifetime, as explained here:









Fighting Sulfation in AGMs - Practical Sailor


Since 1974, Practical Sailor’s independent testing has taken the guesswork out of boat and gear buying.




www.practical-sailor.com





Many fixes might be possible for this situation:

a) Fix the charging system/alternator
b) Place the LHS battery on a charger/maintainer every once in a while, maybe every week
c) Use a good solar smart charger, which will top off the LHS battery every day

Of course, the proper long-term fix is a). If it is b) the cable/connector issue, it may be fixable as Daniel has outlined in this thread. For others like Juhani, tweaking the alternator regulator to increase output voltage might be an option but there are multiple models of Phaeton alternator and the W12 version does not seem to be tweakable. Lastly, the alternator could of course be faulty and need replacement. Factory specifies the whole engine to be dropped which is many hours of labor and many thousands of dollars. However, some on this forum have managed to change out the alternator without dropping the engine, but that is still an elaborate procedure requiring the front-end of the car to come off.

As an electrical engineer, (but not yet a battery or alternator expert), I am astounded that the Phaeton engineers designed such an elaborate dual-battery system with jump start, normal start, cold start, assisted start and emergency start capabilities but decided to provide an UNREGULATED charging voltage to the all-important LHS battery. Had they simply provided a well-regulated alternator or a smart-charger as they did via the J367 for the RHS battery, much pain for many owners could have been avoided.

One potential reason why it was done this way is that some (not all) AGM batteries can take pretty high charging currents and the designers wanted the LHS battery to be able to take such higher currents and recover quickly when driving for shorter periods of time. To achieve high charging voltages, one would need a solid-state smart charger that could deal with 40A of current or similar, technology that was not cheap at that time. It would also have required cooling that would not be very easy in the cramped LHS battery compartment. Even today, inexpensive chargers with more than 20A capability are rare. Thus, connecting the LHS battery to the alternator directly, as had been common practice for decades, would allow a high but unregulated charging current to go from the alternator directly into the LHS battery. But I question if this was really necessary, given the cost-no-bar commandment, they could have done better with some solid-state electronics, perhaps placed in the engine compartment or elsewhere.

Given that the alternator is directly wired to the LHS battery, it is even more inexplicable why they seem to not even have invested in a sense wire from the LHS battery to the alternator that would feedback actual charging voltage to the alternator and command it to raise voltage, if need be. Ideally, the actual temperature of the LHS battery should also factor into the desired alternator output voltage, whereas currently it seems the alternator is using its own internal temperature to regulate its output voltage, which will inevitably be forced down given the high engine compartment temperatures of our Phaetons.

From some links to the ST regulator ICs Juhani posted, at least it appears that the 25 degC regulated voltage setpoint for the alternator is governed to a higher-than-usual 14.8V but the 70 degC setpoint is just the normal 14.1V. Accounting for about 0.2V drop in the cabling to the LHS battery, the alternator should yield 14.6V at the LHS battery terminals _if the regulator was held at the 25 degC of the luggage compartment_, and 13.9V if the engine compartment were at 70 degC. [I'm not sure of the exact temps reached in the engine compartment near the alternator, but 70 degC seems like it would be in the ballpark.]

More research also seems to indicate that the less-sophisticated dual-battery marine charging systems or RV setups charge the starter battery directly from the alternator rather than the service battery. This prioritizes the starter battery. If so, Phaeton seems to be the other way around, not sure why. Partly, it may have something to do with the original single-battery Phaeton models, where the LHS battery would become the starter battery and thus always be charged directly from alternator -- the most reliable option. Indeed, while the Phaeton seems to have been designed for two batteries from the start, given the W12/TDI options, the dual-battery setup may have been a bit of a later change and not field-proven as much in the early internal testing, that may have focused more on the single-battery setup.

4) Yet another failure mode that some have experienced is the smoothing capacitor that filters the alternator output goes bad with time. It then imposes a parasitic load on the alternator output and a residual drain on the LHS battery even when the car is off.


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## Juhani (Sep 15, 2012)

Good write up.
J367 can if faulty degrade state of LHS battery, or if RHS battery is faulty also weaken state of LHS.
I still have orginal VW Varta RHS battery from 2003 and 300tKM, this proofs how well J367 works,
it measures even RHS temp and adjust DC-DC convversion accordingly. In V10 start paralelling
solenoid energises always under 0 c. 
This all makes sense, I have had few times when LHS has been completely dained, you need to go in
with key and use key to arm emergency start, has worked fine. Have to remember that this is top of line car,
difficult to tow or move without its own power.
Have used orginal J367 2600B and 2800D found no difference in their performance, nor inside components.
With all this it wuold have been easy to measure also temp from LHS and control alternator output accordingly.
Optimal led acic battery charge voltage depends on bat temp.
Idea of temp compensated alt regulators comes from that in past battery was usually placed in engine bay,
this usually is no problem exept that heat kills batterys, this is rarely problem here in Finland.
Germans adopded in eightees low charging voltages typically 13,3 13,6v to avoid varranty problems with batterys
in hot engine bays cooking off, for colder times it was good enough that battery was half full. Also less burned lamps.
In USA atleast GM started to use tempereture compensated regulators, when aircooled alt reg in hot engine bay got hot
it lowered voltage as battery in same place also got hot, most US regs also have S-sense possibility you run wire
from connection point or bat terminal to S to compensate resistance in wiring.
New cars have different systems mainly to preserve energy, they only charge for ex. when engine braking or not when they think battery is full
2012 Camaro does that and goes to float 12.7v
Most cars now have battery not in engine bay just like P.
As described earlier I tried different things to fix LHS charge, and final solution is US Delco regulator in ambient air stream going to HVAC,
it now mimics temperature of battery in booth and adjusts charge voltage accordingly.
For a year this has worked superbly and I have not have had any problem with running webasto in mornings, waiting in car with residual heat, stereo ,lights on 
Finaly car takes care of batterys no need to chargers or nothing. 
The voltage meter in instrument cluster reads exactly right but you have to remember that it shows voltage in clusters controller input, with multimeter or VCDS same result.
Even so it is good indicator whats happening, most of the time in my P LHS battery is 0,3V lower than reading when engine on, engine off its opposite this is just from resistanse reasons.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> I have tried with Chrome, Edge, Firefox and Opera browsers and still cannot see the connector picture from post #53. Could someone who can see it on their computer please save it and PM it to me or host it somewhere I can take a look?


Photo re-hosted.

Chris


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

rangsudh said:


> As Juhani said, the J367 Battery Management Controller is used only to charge the RHS battery. The Phaeton SSP 272 technical documentation PDF describes how this works. The J367 usually charges the starter battery by connecting the alternator/LHS-battery output to it via an internal transistor that provides a small voltage drop to accommodate the difference in battery chemistries. If J367 detects that alternator/LHS-battery output is insufficient to charge the RHS battery properly, it uses an internal step-up DC-DC converter to provide a higher charging voltage to the RHS battery.


I just skimmed through SSP 272 again and it mentions relays J579 and J580 for switching the power supply battery and starter battery. Those could fail to switch fully. 

Reading further, it seems that J519 Onboard Power Supply Control Unit takes care of the left battery. On page 26, it says that the J519 monitors the charge state of the onboard power supply battery and increases the RPM of the engine in critical situations. In very critical situations J519 starts switching off convenience equipment.


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## rangsudh (Mar 20, 2013)

Thanks, Chris, for rehosting the photos.

Eric, yes, the LHS battery voltage is monitored and engine idle rpm can be increased (to up the alternator voltage) or load shedding (intervention management) applied -- but not by J367.

Juhani, could you please elaborate on what exactly you did when you said "As described earlier I tried different things to fix LHS charge, and final solution is US Delco regulator in ambient air stream going to HVAC" --

1) What new components need to be purchased?
2) Where and how are they installed?
3) Will it work on any possible Phaeton alternator? (Since we know there is a wide variety of alternators that were used across the Phaeton range, sometimes even on the same model year or different geographies).

Thanks.


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## Juhani (Sep 15, 2012)

Gentlemen,

Yes J519 looks LHS battery, if it thinks voltage is getting low it does cut power of convience like stereo, HVAC, lights, when motor not running, when motor is running it looks DF signal from ALT, and if it shows full load, then cuts power from rear PTC elements, they consume 70A, heated windshield, heated rear window, seat heating and such.
So DF signal from ALT regulator goes to J519, its pulsetrain signal, so from that its knows ALT load which is amount of magnetizing current probably something like 5-7A, if magnetizing is all out but voltage too low it then can raise idle, have not notised this in V10 it idles rock steady 500rpm..

This just the thing, with two controllers and all, ALT is directly connected to LHS bat there is 300A fuse in line but thats that. Alt regulator has no outside provision for voltage adjustment, measuring what goes where I think Chip originally used is this: https://www.st.com/en/automotive-analog-and-power/l9466.html, it should have temp compensation but mine was stuck 13.6v and anyway in its placement its over 90c most of the time, there is about 1meter cable from alt to underhood connection point cable is 16mm2 voltage loss was about 0,3V on 100A.
First I cut connection from alt output and chip +input and runned wire 6mm2 from underhood connection point to chip +in, this did away loss of output cable and raised voltage to 13,8V, better but no cigar, I then I put Schotty Diod in feed wire these diods have very linear non load dependant voltage loss. That fooled chip to regulate to 14,3V. This was good enough and worked for two years, until chip died for old age I think.
Beacause ALT is in V of V10 and you can with great difficulty reach brushes and regulator by removing oilfilter and cooling hoses, to take out alt then you need take out intake manifolds and lot of other stuff not too funny. I decided to put regulator on easier to play with position, just wire to +brush, wire to DF, Lamp, and one phase. I placed reg near underhood connection point in HVAC air stream.
Reg is from 2005 Chevy V8 pick up 160A Delco alt I happened to have unused. I think it has this chip: https://www.st.com/en/automotive-analog-and-power/l9409.html In this orginal Delco reg ofcourse there is no marking what so ever on IC, but pin layout and performance is similar. These chips are something like 5$ each so you can build reg easy with some suitable small cooling element. Alt in V10 is Delco France, has sliprings and reg behind rear bearring,easy to get at under plastic dust cover. Water cooled and geardriven like everything in V10, no belts or even chains at all. Alt has 12 diods so its either with douple three phase or six phase, this makes good even output. Reg is very similar looking as Delco US and actually US reg wuold fit in mounting. I just wanted to place reg in easy place and so it reads ambient temp, its electronics and better of in cool place than in 100c in valley. Alternators are very simple, all usually three phase and rotor magnetized with sliprings, Delco used to regulate with - brush from -60tees to 1995 or so, actually even that does matter, you can use L9409 for nearly anything just connect -brush to ground and regulation to otherone. I have read that Hitachi Alt used in P has also Neodym in rotor, this cuts needed mag. current, I dont know does Delco have Neodym too, in US models they dont have. Maybe Hitachi has S-sense possibility, jap alts many times have or you can swap reg which has. I think you can get alt out from W12 without taking motor out. I have pics how reg is mounted now but dont remember how to put them here. Juhani


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Juhani said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> I have read that Hitachi Alt used in P has also Neodym in rotor, this cuts needed mag. current, I dont know does Delco have Neodym too, in US models they dont have. Maybe Hitachi has S-sense possibility, jap alts many times have or you can swap reg which has.


So you think the Hitachi alternators have rare earth magnets? 

I haven't researched which alternators I have. Do you have any idea about the Delphi alternators?

Thanks.

-Eric


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## Juhani (Sep 15, 2012)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> So you think the Hitachi alternators have rare earth magnets?
> 
> I haven't researched which alternators I have. Do you have any idea about the Delphi alternators?
> 
> ...


AAh yeah, I am sorry, I am so used to "Delco" it used to be "AC Delco" its now Delphi same GM company.


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## Juhani (Sep 15, 2012)

Anyway, in US you can go to ALT shop, and they will tveak our ALT to your liking. Tveaked Delphi alts for stereo use or whatever are readilly avaiable, like used to be 140A now tveaked 200A whatever output voltage you like.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Juhani said:


> Anyway, in US you can go to ALT shop, and they will tveak our ALT to your liking. Tveaked Delphi alts for stereo use or whatever are readilly avaiable, like used to be 140A now tveaked 200A whatever output voltage you like.


I would do that as a last resort, but see post #62.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Juhani said:


> AAh yeah, I am sorry, I am so used to "Delco" it used to be "AC Delco" its now Delphi same GM company.


I didn't know AC Delco became Delphi or maybe I didn't notice. 

My dad had 3 Chevys and I have had 4 GM cars with AC Delco parts.


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