# Coil Overs



## vwgti16v84 (May 24, 2003)

I am looking to get a set of coil overs for my '85 4000 Q. What are you guys running, how do you like them, how much were they, where'd you get them and such.


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## OilSpotz (May 14, 2001)

*Re: Coil Overs (vwgti16v84)*

Im actually looking at doing the same thing. Cheapest ive seen is the ground control ones... Id also love to hear any commants on Coilovers, especailly the GC ones. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
http://www.ground-control.com/
Edit - the kit is 4 bills with the springs.


_Modified by OilSpotz at 2:00 PM 3-19-2004_


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## billzcat1 (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: Coil Overs (OilSpotz)*

For the 80/90 cars, Ground Control will not sell directly to you. They have a contract with 2Bennett Audimotive to only sell through 2B. As the 4kq suspension is nearly identical, the same rule should hold true although I can't confirm since I've never tried to buy 4kq coilovers. 2Bennett of course marks them up - retail is $535.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1083383
This is the post I made when I did the assembly of the 2bennett Coilovers. My spring rates are 400 front 380 rear. I haven't posted pics yet but I have them if you need them. My impression is that it is a lot of work, but if you can't live without them you don't have much choice.
One thing I will say up front: if you are going to use coilovers, make the most of your dollar and effort. Setting ride height is just a tertiary benefit. Setting corner weights an choosing spring rates are what coilovers are all about. Once you set the car up how you like it, there shouldn't be much reason to adjust. If you don't care about any of that, I'd say skip all the extra work and money. A set of springs can be installed in 1/4 the time and costs half as much.


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## 4Wdrift (Dec 16, 2001)

*Re: Coil Overs (billzcat1)*

I have the 2B kit (ground control) on my 4kq. My spring rates are 375frt 400rear. Installation is very straight forward. You need a good cut-off wheel, a good grinder, and a welder.
I dislike them and would recomend anyone that wants a serious suspension to look elsewhere for another option. I know there are other companies that sell kits,and that the price is pretty steep, but the 2B kit is very rudimentary.
The handling on smooth surfaces is good and the aforementioned ability to adjust your suspension is cool, but hard cornering and hard driving on rough surfaces causes the poorly designed spring hat/spring perch combination to separate from the spring under suspension droop. When the suspension moves back up, the spring (or hat, I'm not sure which or when) often does not seat properly, resulting in iffy handling and loud clunking when it finally does seat itself.
If I started over, I would machine a spring hat that does not move independently of all other suspension components. Good STEEL threaded sleeves can be purchased from DMS and their proven spring perches as well. Springs can be purchased from any reputable supplier (obviously).
This is my 2 cents, and if you have access to a CNC machine, you could easily build your own coil-overs for a lot cheaper, and better than the 2B kit.
I DO like 2B, they've always been good to me.


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## Bboble (Mar 19, 2002)

*Re: Coil Overs (4Wdrift)*

I have the 2B's aswell, and my 4kq on jackstands, I nearly at complition(unfortunently NO rush when you have other cars)... I heard that you need to wire tie the spring to the hat so they do not become seperated under hard corning I have also heard of people w/out problems, I suppose it has mainly to do with the ride height!


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## StormChaser (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: Coil Overs (Bboble)*

Can somebody explain to me what coilovers really are? The ony definition I've seen is that the spring (coil) goes over the strut...but it's already that way on most cars and is on the Audis...


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## billzcat1 (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: Coil Overs (duandcc)*

Yes, what you say is correct. At the root of the term "Coilover" is the spring behind located over the strut. As people are lazy, we have taken a more complicated word and shortened it. 
A better word would be height-adjustable coilover or fully-adjustable coilover. Fully adjustable would also have some damper adjustment as well.
In the case of 95% of all coilovers, the strut tube is threaded and a collar adjusts up and down to raise and lower the lower spring seat.
Here's some pics of my rears to help explain.
















Black: strut tube
Red: spring
Aluminum at the top: upper spring seat
Silver with red showing through: threaded sleeve covered in anti-seize
Gold: threaded height adjust collar.
Note the top spring seat has been zip tied on. This is to keep them from separating at full droop.
4Wdrift is right, the spring can come unsettled from the lower seat under droop. I know he has a lot of rally experience and I would really hesitate to use this suspension in a rally car. I think for my rarely-tracked street car I won't have any problems. If I do, I'll be sure to report them!
Also something to note: I used the green strut mounts all around. They are about 4mm taller than the blues. Stock uses blue rear and green front. The rears are perhaps too tall. The nylock nut on top of the strut will not engage the nylon locking section, so I was forced to use loctite instead. When I do them again I will use blues for sure.


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## MFZERO (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: Coil Overs (billzcat1)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## glibobbo21 (Nov 11, 2002)

*Re: Coil Overs (MFZERO)*

mmmm i see those in my future


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## [email protected] (Feb 18, 1999)

*Re: Coil Overs (glibobbo21)*

I have no personal experience with either the 2B Ground Control system or FK, but I can tell you something I just learned while in Germany. We went to visit FK and, as I have an '84 that'll probably see project car status in some form or another at some point, I was curious...
Ralf at FK did tell me that they do sell a kit that primarily UrQ owners have bought thus far. They haven't really advertised it yet, but they do have one available. FK North America may or may not have imported some of these (I'd guess they haven't), but they could be ordered I would imagine. I haven't persued it further, don't know which version of their coilovers are offered for the cars, and can't speak much more about them as I've never seen the kit and haven't ridden in a car with them. But they do exist.


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## turboquattro (Mar 3, 2002)

*Re: Coil Overs ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_I have no personal experience with either the 2B Ground Control system or FK, but I can tell you something I just learned while in Germany. We went to visit FK and, as I have an '84 that'll probably see project car status in some form or another at some point, I was curious...
Ralf at FK did tell me that they do sell a kit that primarily UrQ owners have bought thus far. They haven't really advertised it yet, but they do have one available. FK North America may or may not have imported some of these (I'd guess they haven't), but they could be ordered I would imagine. I haven't persued it further, don't know which version of their coilovers are offered for the cars, and can't speak much more about them as I've never seen the kit and haven't ridden in a car with them. But they do exist.

My understanding of FK's offerings for the older Audi's such as Type 85's and 44's, involves shipping your strut housings to them to be converted and sent back to you. This is not based on 100% reliable information, but it is the impression I get from what I've read and heard. I think I inquired about it from a vendor of FK stuff and that's what I was told, but my memory is not perfect on that.


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## StormChaser (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: Coil Overs (turboquattro)*

From what I've seen, unless you set them up very carefully, coilovers are NOT all that...


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## billzcat1 (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: Coil Overs (duandcc)*

Well Dave, setting up a suspension incorrectly will make your car handle like crap. Usually the "crap" handling comes from being too low on a MacPherson strut setup. Generally speaking, the lower you go, the lower the center of gravity is (well this is ALWAYS true). Then the lower you go, the higher the roll center is (based on the length and angle of the control arm). The distance between these is called the roll moment and it acts like a lever (highly simplified explanation). The longer the lever, the more roll is induced, so the spring rates have to be increased to prevent roll.
Properly set up, coilovers will outhandle a basic spring kit. Unfortunately, almost no one sets up coilovers correctly.


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## billzcat1 (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: Coil Overs (SRSVW)*

Far be it for me to argue with Dick Shine (who I have a LOT of respect for) But I do disagree on a few points. 

_Quote, originally posted by *SRSVW* »_ First off a properly setup spring\shock will ALWAYS outhandle a coilover!!!


I don't think this is true. A properly set up spring/shock combo will be EQUAL to a properly set up coilover. Unfortunately I've never heard of an aftermarket spring/shock combo that is perfect.

_Quote, originally posted by *SRSVW* »_Second off a proper spring\shock setup will have more travel and less unsprung weight


Again, not true. Travel is determined more by spring rate, ride height, and (to a lesser extent) compressive damping than by what style suspension (adjustable spring perch or not). Pick the same spring rates for a fixed height and coilover suspension, use the same dampers, and have the same ride height and you will have equal travel. 

_Quote, originally posted by *SRSVW* »_ Third. As has been very well been pointed out,most coilovers are never even close to adjusted right.


Preach on, my brother!

_Quote, originally posted by *SRSVW* »_ The design of our suspension dictates the proper height for handling,not some aesthetic whim.


Cool, but you can accomplish the same thing with coilovers. At least good ones. (Not H&R Ultra Low BS) Plus, some of us DO have aesthetic whims, can't avoid that. How to accomdate the aesthetic whim and get the best handling compromise? Coilovers. Or a proper spring/shock combo (which no one sells). You have to realize that people want to look good and handle well, and maybe most of the time looks force a handling compromise. But to make the best of it, I think coilovers would be the best option.

_Quote, originally posted by *SRSVW* »_ They dont even cost an arm and a leg and anyone can put them easily.


I dunno, my coilovers weren't terribly expensive (2bennett/ground control). They were about 20 times more work than a spring install. I think a spring install is pretty easy, but there are some people I don't trust with a screwdriver, much less a spring compressor









_Quote, originally posted by *SRSVW* »_ 
Coilovers are used on some racing cars to balance the corner weights,not to adjust ride height. They are a poor choice for street use.


Indeed, and in some cases where weight distribution is changed (as in my car with a rather odd engine swap) then coilovers seem the only option to properly balance the car.
I agree with your basic point: most people don't need coilover and won't take the time to use them to even 1/10th their potential. Especially when someone like you offers a very good spring application, there's little need for coilovers for most people.
Also, at first I was apprehensive about the sleeve/collar coilover setup. I since realized that in a way it is a lot better than a pre-fab set. You get to choose spring rates, lengths, and have a choice of many more dampers with a setup like this, making it much easier to get the exact suspension characteristics you desire.


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## SRSVW (Jun 28, 2001)

*Re: Coil Overs (billzcat1)*

Blitzcat the reason most coilovers have less travel is quite simple! The spring coilbinds before the shock bottoms! I have my setup in my 91 20V Audi 90 and have tried many coilovers,including ones mentioned in this thread and mine handles significantly better and rides well also. You cant coilbind a proper spring setup before the shock bottoms! I have been fighting this battle for years. Most coilovers dont include boots to protect the shaft and have little or no warranty! Why put up with that? Mine are lifetime warranteed and have a 90 day moneyback. They handle and ride great and you can select several different rates. Where is the advantage of a coilover. I sense you have never tried my products before. As to your comment about people you wouldnt trust with a screwdriver,I hear you there. For some a coilover is the only thing they will accept. Thats fine,but you can get as good or better results with a well designed\engineered spring\shock setup.
Dick Shine


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## OilSpotz (May 14, 2001)

*Re: Coil Overs (SRSVW)*

Id be interested in checking out what you have for a 4k as far as springs go. Do you have a website? thanks!


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## OilSpotz (May 14, 2001)

*Re: Coil Overs (SRSVW)*

Not until i did a quick google search.


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