# MS and itb's onto my 16v CIS-E



## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

well i have started to accumulate parts for my new project. I currently have a 91 GTI 16v with CIS-E. I am planning on turning the motor over to msns-e and itb's. 
Ordered so far are a set of 99 gsxr750 tib's and a 16v lower intake manifold.
i hope to add this build to the others that are out there in hopes to help others that are going this route. I'm still learning about the megasquirt but i hope to order it next week along with couplers and a fuel rail and injectors.
if anyone has parts or input for me let me know! I'd like to be done by june 30 but i have a feeling its not going to be http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif but im going to try
money spent so far (prices include shipping):
99 gsxr750 itb's.......................................115.............ebay
lower 16v intake.......................................25..............vortex person
passat 1.8t fuel rail w/ injectors and fpr.......30.............ebay
digi injector holders (4).............................15..............local parts store
ms 2.2 w/ harness....................................230...........from someone that never used it off of e30tech, i recomend diyautotune for buying new
couplings w/ clamps..................................40............hightempsilicone.com
threaded rod and nuts..............................5...............local fastner place
welding of tabs for fuel rail........................40.............local welder
4 uni air filters.........................................50.............motorcyclyesuperstore.com i think
megasquirt cable and usb adaptor.............30............diyautotune.com
fuel lines and fittings...............................50.............local parts store
innovate wideband w/ gauge....................300............diyautotune.com
total.......................................................930
there are probably a few more dollars spent in other places that i forgot about

pics of current parts and work


























the things i had bookmarked for this adventure

megasquirt wiring and vb921 info (i used this exactly for wiring):
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=1
bike itb directory:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2838896
easytherm values for the stock cts:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3021719
general cis to ms threads (look through links too):
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1377841
http://www.clubgti.co.uk/forum...53889
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2824546
thats pretty much all the info needed to get a megasquirted car running. 
_Modified by gli_ryan at 11:26 PM 5-2-2007_

_Modified by gli_ryan at 12:38 PM 5-3-2007_

_Modified by gli_ryan at 1:32 AM 5-4-2007_

_Modified by gli_ryan at 3:21 PM 5-7-2007_

_Modified by gli_ryan at 5:09 PM 5-7-2007_

_Modified by gli_ryan at 8:17 PM 5-8-2007_

_Modified by gli_ryan at 12:14 AM 5-18-2007_

_Modified by gli_ryan at 9:34 PM 5-22-2007_

_Modified by gli_ryan at 1:27 PM 7-13-2007_

_Modified by gli_ryan at 3:56 PM 8-16-2007_

_Modified by gli_ryan at 4:05 PM 8-16-2007_

_Modified by gli_ryan at 11:16 PM 8-27-2007_


_Modified by gli_ryan at 11:17 PM 8-27-2007_


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

updated with fuel rail and injector holders from digifant car


_Modified by gli_ryan at 12:37 PM 5-3-2007_


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## DigiFaNt (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: MS and itb's onto my 16v CIS-E (gli_ryan)*

if you wanna go cheaper, you could cut the low mani so that you still have something on there to work with like 2 inches and get some silicone Straight Connectors (2.25). 2 sets of 4 ($6.00 ea) use them to hook up the itbs. and use the TPS that came with the ITB's


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

*Re: MS and itb's onto my 16v CIS-E (DigiFaNt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DigiFaNt* »_if you wanna go cheaper, you could cut the low mani so that you still have something on there to work with like 2 inches and get some silicone Straight Connectors (2.25). 2 sets of 4 ($6.00 ea) use them to hook up the itbs. and use the TPS that came with the ITB's

yea thats the plan. im just getting there though. thanks for the info. do you have a link to a good place to get the couplings from?

im working on a deal for ms 2.2 with 10 foot harness...i hope to get that for 230 bux


_Modified by gli_ryan at 3:14 PM 5-3-2007_


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

I'll have to see if I can find my receipt, I got 3" long 2" dia. silicone couplers, and lined hose clamps for a decent price online somewhere (normal hoseclamps will cut into the silicone)


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

updated again with the purchase of megasquirt 2.2 with harness!!!!!! almost there!


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

http://hightempsilicone.zoovy....033RD
$30 for 5 connectors and 10 clamps, package deal is cheaper than if you were to have bought just 4 hoses/clamps
I also bought a silicone vacuum hose kit from them - http://hightempsilicone.zoovy.com/product/SVHMKRD
but turns out I didn't need the 6mm hose at all, just the 3.5mm for all the vacuum lines, and 10mm for the brake booster.


_Modified by xr4tic at 8:46 PM 5-6-2007_


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

*Re: (xr4tic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xr4tic* »_http://hightempsilicone.zoovy....033RD
$30 for 5 connectors and 10 clamps, package deal is cheaper than if you were to have bought just 4 hoses/clamps
I also bought a silicone vacuum hose kit from them - http://hightempsilicone.zoovy.com/product/SVHMKRD
but turns out I didn't need the 6mm hose at all, just the 3.5mm for all the vacuum lines, and 10mm for the brake booster.

_Modified by xr4tic at 8:46 PM 5-6-2007_

i dont think i'll even need the vacume hose because my itb's came with vacume hose and a throttle cable and the injectors and the fuel rail. im not using the fuel rail or injectors because my 1.8t came with all that stuff. i'll post a pic of all my stuff tomorrow
but i'll definatly be buying those couplers and clamps


_Modified by gli_ryan at 9:44 PM 5-6-2007_


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## jetta-the-hut (Feb 10, 2007)

*Re: MS and itb's onto my 16v CIS-E (gli_ryan)*

Sounds good so far!
which injectors and fpr came on the 1.8t fuel rail?
Gotta any parts numbers for the ms 2.2 or a link where you got it?


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

the vacuum line isn't necessary, but i wanted something to match my pretty red hoses











plus you still need to run a line from the ITBs to the MS unit


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

zwell i purchased the silicone couplings and clamps, total cost was 39 with shipping. also megasquirt came in today. im just got done cutting the stock manifold, i couldn't find my camera so i haven't taken any pics yet. soon i will though 
jetta-the-hut:
i purchased my megasquirt from a person that decided not to go that route, it was never used so it's brand new. so i got super lucky. otherwise i would recomend diyautotune.com
xr4ti:
how did you space your itb's? i have them all apart and cleaned and im trying to get that figured out
also about the fuel rail. i got one off a 1.8t passat, it came with the injectors and an fpr. does anyone know the flow rate of the 1.8t injectors? i was planning on just using those with my setup

added pics to the first post, so far i've cut down the intake manifold, cleaned the itb's, and tried to figurout how to space the itb's...i need help with that one. also i need to get home and look through my megasquirt and wiring to get an idea of how it's going to go together

_Modified by gli_ryan at 3:22 PM 5-7-2007_

_Modified by gli_ryan at 3:36 PM 5-7-2007_


_Modified by gli_ryan at 5:39 PM 5-7-2007_


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

For mine, I was just able to get some hollow aluminum tubing in the right diameter to make some spacers, with a nylon spacer shoved inside since its sort of a step arrangement.
I think AEB 1.8T stock injectors are 210cc at 3 bar, but have a 4 bar FPR that runs 15% more fuel - http://vwmod.com/fuel.php


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

i guess i have to be spoon fed some of this stuff...because there a few things that i'm not sure how they work, like the megasquirt for example.
anyways i'm reading up on that, did you happen to buy a new screw rod to go through the bodies? 
im gong to pm you my number so i can get some things straight, so give me a call when you can, if i dont answer i might be in class so leave your phone number. if you dont want to call thats fine too, i can probably figure the stuff out

more progress today:
digi injector seats installed, i ran into a problem when i couldn't get a 13mm allan wrench so i picked up a 13mm bolt and nuts and used those. also had a problem with one of the little injector runners, the plastic part, it came out with one of the cis injector squirters and ruined the rubber bushing. i put it back together but i had to be careful, if that rubber bushing isn't in properly do you think there will be a problem?
also tomorrow i will be heading up to my old high school to see if my old teacher will weld me some tabs for the fuel rail and make some spacers for the itb's.




















_Modified by gli_ryan at 8:12 PM 5-8-2007_


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

Sorry, haven't checked the site in a couple days.
Yeah, I had to get some longer bolts, I bought a couple 3' lengths of threaded rod, and cut to the appropriate length, with a nut and washer on each end. My ITBs were held together with 3 long bolts, looks like yours has one bolt, and a plate, which you'll probably have to make.
for the digifant injector cups, the o-ring on the bottom didn't look like it sealed real well against the bottom, so I put a thin coat of silicone sealant on the bottom of each one before threading them in, just to be on the safe side.
There shouldn't be anything left of the CIS injector bung, so I'm not sure what you're saying about a plastic part coming out?


_Modified by xr4tic at 11:15 AM 5-10-2007_


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

the plastic part i am talking about is the one that the cis brass bung pushes down the injector hole. and it sticks out the other end about an inch, mine are blackish in color. you didn't have those?
im getting stuff done at my old high school metal shop, man it's hard after not doing anything like that in about 4 years. i've been watching high schoolers work on my stuff. one of the bastards broke off one of the outside locations where the stud goes through and the nut holds the manifold on. i think it should be ok though...im going to keep my fingers crossed and possibly work on getting something welded on there.


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

I had those, but I removed all the CIS injector stuff (broke most of it coming out) did you put any of those bits back in?


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

i was going to put those back in. i had to take them out again though to get the peice machined. should i just leave them out then?


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

hey does anyone know if i have to run a coil driver in my megasquirt to control my ignition system?
i've almost got my itb's ready to be installed. i got my spacers done today. i tried to get a new threaded rod also but the fastner company didn't have one that i need so i will have it tomorrow. im waiting for that and my couplings still!! i ordered those a week ago. i guess i have high expectations for shipping times...


_Modified by gli_ryan at 7:00 PM 5-14-2007_


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

It depends how you want to hook up the ignition. You can install the VB921 coil driver and run the coil directly, or run a bosch driver (7pin) 
Check http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2545204 for some details


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

oh ok, i hate how some of the information is spread out so much. it makes it so hard to get the facts straight. like this coil driver for example, i guess it's just a huge learning experience.
xr4tic:
what did you do to hold your fuel rail on the intake mani?
EDIT: i see you had tabs welded onto the mani. you should show pics if you can of the tabs


_Modified by gli_ryan at 4:39 PM 5-15-2007_


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

*Re: (gli_ryan)*

more progress!!!!
so i finally got my couplings today and i am now pretty much finished with my itb's, i just need to get megasquirt all set. Also i need to plug the gsxr injector holes, and my biggest concern is getting my fuel rail attached to my intake manifold. It's going to need tabs welded or something....im not sure though excatly what im going to do about that. I also have to get the fuel lines set and ready before this car isn't drivable. 
i will have 3 days to do this, do you guys think that that is enough time to install the itb's and megasquirt?
here are the pics









































EDIT: i just dropped off my set up to get some fuel rail tabs welded on


_Modified by gli_ryan at 3:14 PM 5-16-2007_


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

*Re: (gli_ryan)*

i got the itb's and mani back a few hours ago and heres how it looks.
















costed 40 bucks, i also ordered 4 uni air filters for almost 50 bucks. i just need to figure out the damn spark on ms and to get some inline fuse holders. this weekend is coming quick, but not quick enough.....


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

i've been working on it now for about 2.5 hours and im takin a break to eat. im trying to figureout the alternator deal...i think i have to take off the braket and trim down the a/c mount so the alt will mount there. it's going about as difficult/easy as i though. anyone want to chime in on the alternator situation?
i'll post pics when my batteries are charged.


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

got the alternator problem figured out, it turned out pretty good. i just had to hammer the spacer to one side on the right mount and had to grind a little off the mounting braket. it looks good but is off center in terms of the pullies by just a smidge, probably about n 1/8 of an inch. maybe less. do you think it will be ok like that? and i used the stock a/c belt! anyways i had to extend the tensioner braket for the alt, i used part of the a/c braket for an extension. i think it should be ok
input and thoughts are welcome!
EDIT: adding pictures

whats left of the a/c braket









what the alt braket looks like









i forgot to take a pic of the finished alt setup, i'll do that in the morning

grinded down a/c alt braket
sorry for a crap oil filter

















bye bye CIS-E stuff!








i hope to finish tomorrow, maybe i'll have some help











_Modified by gli_ryan at 10:33 PM 5-25-2007_


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

it's not finished yet. all thats left is running the fuel lines and finish up the wiring for megasquirt. i decided to run a vb921 coil driver. thats all soldered up. i still have to add another wire lead to pin 25 because there isn't one there. hopefully it will be driving tomorrow!


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## rbnm3 (Oct 1, 2006)

Sweet, thanks for keeping this updated. I'm thinking about doing the same thing with my 1.8.


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

*Re: (rbnm3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbnm3* »_Sweet, thanks for keeping this updated. I'm thinking about doing the same thing with my 1.8.

well im glad there's at least one person watching this. you should do it up!
heres the pics from yesterday.

































as you can see here it's tight for the vacume lines


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## riegerscirocco (Oct 1, 2002)

i know youre trying to get the car running but come on, cut those vacuum lines to even lengths at least!!!!!!!
haha just busting your balls man great job. i want to do the same exact thing very soon so you inspire me. keep up with the updates im here with yah. 
one little tip though, if you have time, try and taper the ends where you hacked off your intake manifold. you have a very large flat ridge that would cause quite a bit of turbulence (i think??) and some simple dremel work should help a bit. just try and smoothe out your intake tract as much as possible you know??


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

ya i have to get those vacume lines figured out...and yes im trying to just get the car running and then do the finishing work. 
i dont think i have any pics of the finished intake up close abut they are pretty well smoothed out and have about as smooth as a coupling joint can get. 
i think the car should run tomorrow. we thought the megasquirt wasn't staying on when we turned the key on. the middle l.e.d. would only come on for about 5 seconds and i thought that a light was supposed to be on all the time indicating that the megasquirt had power. also i was not getting any responce from the ms. after my freind took home the ecu he discovered that the light turned off after about 5 seconds but the ecu was still on. he also figured out that i had a setting on megatune that needed to be different in order to allow communication between the ecu and computer.


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

ok so i got it running yesterday. one of my problems was the injectors got grounded instead of getting hooked up to power....dumb. now im using digitalk's ve table im the car runs so rich it burns my eyes. so im trying to figurout how get the afr's to get from 10.0 to an acceptable 14 or higher. i guess i dont fully understand how to yet. any hints/advise?


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

DigitalK's map was alpha-N I thought, did you configure MS properly for it?
You will have to calibrate TPS, and possibly adjust/fix the VE table with the correct TPC raw values.


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

*Re: (xr4tic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xr4tic* »_DigitalK's map was alpha-N I thought, did you configure MS properly for it?
You will have to calibrate TPS, and possibly adjust/fix the VE table with the correct TPC raw values.

no i didn't think there was anything extra i had to do. i think i messed around with a couple settings and changed where you can see the required fuel, i changed that to alpha-n. i know have adjusted my vetable way way lower that digitalk's settings and it runs ok, still way rich but it runs ok, not good by anymeans though. my computer died so it's charging now then i'll be back out there.


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## tbeck (Sep 12, 2004)

*Re: (gli_ryan)*

wow, keep up the good work. im thinking about doing this to my gti, so let me know how it goes! 
goodluck!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (gli_ryan)*

I didn't realize his map was alpha-n. You have to set that in the basic config as well as with the MT Configurator, or mod the settings.ini manually.


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

and i change those how? i changed the settings to try and get the autotune to work but it still doesn't so i guess i still dont know what im doing
also the car is still bucking some. any ideas as to what needs to be changed to help that problem? im also getting a reading of about 10.5 for my afr and i cant get that to come up to something resonable.
oh yea and my brake booster isnt getting enough vacume to let it work http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
positive side is it's running and way before the time i wanted it done by



_Modified by gli_ryan at 5:29 PM 5-30-2007_


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

open MegaTune, File -> Configurator
Depending how you installed MegaTune, you will have Alpha_N, Car1, or both. open up whichever one you are using, go under settings.ini, then settings
Make sure CODE_VARIANT is set to MSnS extensions, LAMBDA_SENSOR is set to what you have, Fueling_Algorithm is set to Alpha_N, and the MAP_SENSOR is set correctly, save the settings
Go back into MegaTune, calibrate the TPS if you haven't already -> Tools, Calibrate TPS, click Get Current on the first box with your foot off the gas, click Get Current on the 2nd box with the pedal at WOT
this will create a throttlefactor.inc file in your MegaSquirt directory somewhere. Open it up (search if you have to) The middle column will be the TPS%, the right column will be raw ADC value. 
The VE Table uses raw ADC values. Make sure the lowest setting is set to what ever 0% equates to, and the highest setting is close to 100%
Low ADC and High ADC on the top of the file are good values to start with


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

*Re: (xr4tic)*

ok, i just did that and everything was ok. i downloaded difitalk program and so i've been using that instead of car1. so do i edit in digitalk's or in car1? also i changed the setting for wideband to narrowband...thats probably why im getting ridiculously low afr's. i'll go out in a bit to try it out.

does anyone know the rating of 1.8t A4 injectors? i got them on a stock 1.8t rail with a 4 bar fpr.

also does anyone elses itb whistle at partial throttle? is it because of a bad tune?
_Modified by gli_ryan at 9:24 AM 5-31-2007_


_Modified by gli_ryan at 9:28 AM 5-31-2007_


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

I think the 1.8T stock injectors are 210cc/min @ 3bar, but flow 240cc/min @ 4 bar.
Are you running a wideband? If you're running a narrowband, make sure you turn off the target AFR table, and set the crossover voltage to ~0.49
whistle or squeal? I'm getting a squeal under part throttle acceleration, and its bugging the hell out of me.


_Modified by xr4tic at 11:24 AM 5-31-2007_


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

maybe like a squeal, i bet it's the same noise. im running narrowband for now. myabe i'll get a wideband soon. also, when my car dies it smokes out the itb's, does that mean it's lean or rich? or normal?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (gli_ryan)*

Stop until you have a wideband, buy, borrow or steal. At the price these days there's no excuse.


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

i wish, i'll have to buy one like this week. now i think i messed up the megasquirt code or something. i wish i was better with computers and programs cuz i'd understand much better then


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## riegerscirocco (Oct 1, 2002)

the whistling at part throttle is the air passing by the throttle plates when its at an angle creating a whistle like effect.....


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

wow, now my car wont run. i think when i tried to redownload the easytherm i downloaded megasquirt without spark and so now i have none. something like that and then to top it off my serial to usb adaptor isn't working...so i'd like to shoot off my head now because im driving a hyundai accent


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## rbnm3 (Oct 1, 2006)

Hope you can get it running man. My mom has an Accent, those things are junk.


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

*Re: (rbnm3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbnm3* »_Hope you can get it running man. My mom has an Accent, those things are junk.


yes they are. when i pulled into the parking lot at work it stalled and i coasted into a parking spot...








I might have found the problem or at least one problem i was having, i found the middle wire came undone from the vb921. so i soldered that back up and crimped the two wires together. tomorrow it will be up and running again. hopefully i can get some tuning in before i work at 2
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for progress on the problem
http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif for driving accents and not vw's


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

*Re: (gli_ryan)*

i figuredout what's going on, partly. when i do the easytherm to adjust for the stock cts my megatune dosn't connect with megasquirt. im not sure if this is getting the megasquirt all funky or not but it's a problem. does anyone have an idea of how to fix this?
i need to just get a thing to put the gm sensor in instead of messin with easytherm


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

*Re: (gli_ryan)*

now i figued out easytherm.
i used these readings and they seem to work perfect
temp res
37 5640
90 1500
214 187.6
the car started easy it seemed, then died. now wont start at all. i think the injectors aren't opening. i doubt it has anything to do with those readings because it's not even trying to start.








EDIT: i checked power at the injectors and i have 12v on both sides....i dont think thats right
that might be right, i think the problem is im not getting spark. i dont know why though because it was working fine just a minute ago and i haven't made any changes.








i think the coil driver fried. i had spark output at not inverted for a while and didn't realize it. then i switched it to inverted, it got super super hot, the car died and didn't start again. now i have to order a new one. gay

another EDIT: i just purchased two coil drivers from diyautotune. i hope they come soon so i can drive this thing again. i hope the coil driver is actually the problem. if not i'll likely go crazy

_Modified by gli_ryan at 10:03 AM 6-4-2007_

_Modified by gli_ryan at 10:15 AM 6-4-2007_

_Modified by gli_ryan at 10:24 AM 6-4-2007_


_Modified by gli_ryan at 10:44 AM 6-4-2007_


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

if you're using a VB921 to fire the stock coil, then you will need inverted spark, and make sure you set the dwell, or you can burn it out.
Cranking: 5.0
Running: 3.0
min discharge: 0.5
These settings are a good start


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

*Re: (xr4tic)*

yea im pretty sure it burnt out. thanks for those settings, i probably would have no idea what they would need to be otherwise


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

well i got a couple new vb921's and soldered one in and the car wont start now. i changed the dwell settings and inverted spark and it wont start. none of the other settings have changed, but the car wont start. it gets really close but it wont. any ideas? i had forgot about the dwell at first and some smoke came from the vb921, i changed the settings and it was fine, i hope. i think it is still working because the car fires a bit, it just wont keep going.


_Modified by gli_ryan at 6:34 PM 6-6-2007_


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (gli_ryan)*

are you getting spark and fuel?
you got a wideband on it?


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

*Re: (VWralley)*

no wideband yet, too expensive unless someone has a used one for sale......i got the car started, a set of super black plugs was the problem then i swapped out my old ones and it ran. i think it ran the best it has today, it's not running good still though. i hope to be able to tune it tomorrow. it runs bad off the low rpm's but isn't too bad when it gets going.
how do i get the logging to work with megasquirt? so i can see what the car does and look back on the info?

EDIT: so i think the car gets really lean when the throttle is opened. i think i need to mess with my required fuel, at the start of that is getting the injectors figured out. i dont know their size so i'll have to pop one off tomorrow and get the part number and find the rating. i also need to figure out the right way to tune, i think i know but i have a feeling the way i think it is done is not the right way.


_Modified by gli_ryan at 9:57 PM 6-6-2007_


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

*Re: (gli_ryan)*

so today the car started a little and wouldn't keep going. i had fuel, no spark. i cleaned uot the plugs and it fired right up. the plugs were black with carbon and fuel. 
i then proceeded to time the car. amazingly it was running fairly well. without a bentley i called saddest6day66 to get the correct information on what marks are what. he's been a really good help through all of this, thanks matt. so it was finally timed correctly and running quite good. 
i had been messing with the maps so i started from the beginning with digitalk's maps. and the car ran even better, easily drivable. then i finally got someone else to come drive the car. so it's tuned pretty well now. 
i do have a problem though, when full throttle is applied and the car approaches 6k, it completly dies. i was watching the afr's closely and nothing changed, it stayed right around 14.7. then i have to wait about 10 seconds for the car to have any chance to start, almost like it looses fuel and it takes 10 seconds for the system to start working again. any ideas?


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

14.7 at WOT is too lean, you really need to richen that up.
But you cant trust the narrowband sensor to be accurate at anything but 14.7, so if you have to guess, guess on the rich side.
what is your rev limit set to? does it cut spark or fuel or both? If its set to spark only for 6K, maybe it fouls the plugs out?


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

i think the problem is that the megasquirt shuts off. it did it again, i didnt see the lights on the ms turn off when the car died because i wasn't watching them, but i noticed that none of the lights would flash when i turned the engine over. i got the readings through it though on megatune... i think it might be the coil driver again because when i installed the second one i forgot the dwel settings. i dont know if it did but my guess is when i started the car with out the dwel settings right that the coil driver was maybe damaged. im going to install my 3rd driver now and see what happens
EDIT: that was not the problem because it still does it's little shut off thing with the new coil driver. im thinking possibly an alternator problem and the fluctuating of the possibly bad alternator is making the megasquirt shut down. when i watched the megasquirt shut off when i was driving the two right lights shut off and the left one stayed on for a bit longer. does that give any clues? i have no idea what those lights are for or mean


_Modified by gli_ryan at 10:17 PM 6-7-2007_


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## GLEE60 (Nov 10, 2005)

*Re: MS and itb's onto my 16v CIS-E (gli_ryan)*

bump for tinckering!


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## DJ*GLi (Jun 7, 2005)

*Re: MS and itb's onto my 16v CIS-E (gli_ryan)*

can i use 2001 gsxr 1000 itb for a similar proyect


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

*Re: MS and itb's onto my 16v CIS-E (DJ*GLi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DJ*GLi* »_can i use 2001 gsxr 1000 itb for a similar proyect

yes, you can use pretty much anything. 
heres the motorcycle itb directory
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2838896
it has pretty much all useable bike itb's covered


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

*Re: MS and itb's onto my 16v CIS-E (gli_ryan)*

i have been talking with diyautotune and i sent matt a datalog of a run when the problem occured. he told me that i was having rpm signal loss and said wiring is loose for the hall sender or the hall is bad. after messing with the hall sender we decided it was the sender that was in fact bad. thanks to matt i have now figuered out this crappy problem and spent another 150







. oh well, but it's money out of my turbo e30 project so that sucks. i hope fourseasonstuning ships fast so i can get this part like this week.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: MS and itb's onto my 16v CIS-E (gli_ryan)*

At least you're still making progress though http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

yes, i also just ordered a wideband o2 sensor and gauge. the innovate lc-1 with the digital blue gauge. so i'll see how that goes. are those easy to instal with megasquirt?
ooo, i've spent way more than i expected. oh well, it's all easy to sell stuff


_Modified by gli_ryan at 2:03 PM 6-18-2007_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (gli_ryan)*

Pretty simple, power and ground to the LC1, analog out to the MS, tie all the grounds to the MS ground and install the sensor. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

im still waiting on my lc-1, i was hoping it would be here by now...
my couplings that i have on my itb's contract a bunch at idle, they suck in quite a bit. i wonder if they are going to get worn out because of this. anyone else have this problem? i guess i could shorten the couplings but then my runner length would be basically nothing.


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

I noticed the same thing the other day, the couplings collapsing.
I think I'll get some 2" tubing, and insert it into the couplings so they cant collapse.


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

*Re: (xr4tic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xr4tic* »_I noticed the same thing the other day, the couplings collapsing.
I think I'll get some 2" tubing, and insert it into the couplings so they cant collapse.


wow thats a good idea. i think i got 2.25 couplings so im going to try that. if you beat me to it let me know how it works


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

friggin-a, i just found out a week after i purchased the wideband that they are on back order!!!!!!!!! that makes me way less than happy


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

well i've got my lc-1 installed now. but now i have a problem with reading the correct afr. the gauge starts around 7.0 when cranking and shortly after startup it creeps it's way up to 22.4 and stays there. even when i rev the motor. while the gauge reads that, megatune reads 10.1 or so, that moves some. where am i missing something? i changed the megatune setting to read wideband instead of narrowband. i also checked the lm programer thing and set it.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (gli_ryan)*

The creeping reading could be a missing ground wire. Depending on the version and date of your LC1 it could have some bogus instructions. Older ones tell you to keep the heater and analog grounds separate and that causes problems that could include this one.


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

i have the two ground wires attached to a single larger wire and grounded to the motor. the power wire is attached to the positive of the coil. and whatever else to where it needs to go. 
the lc-1 is brand new.


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## atrujillo1991 (May 24, 2006)

*Re: MS and itb's onto my 16v CIS-E (gli_ryan)*

did the TB's mount RIGHT onto the intakeports(fitwise or did you change the direction of the runners a tad)?


_Quote, originally posted by *gli_ryan* »_ my runner length would be basically nothing.

Is ths a problem if you're boosted?


_Modified by atrujillo1991 at 2:49 PM 7-12-2007_


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

*Re: MS and itb's onto my 16v CIS-E (atrujillo1991)*

if the motor is boosted i dont think that the runner length really matters because you have all that piping anyways.
all i did was cut the stock mani so that the runners were as straight as possible so that the itb's weren't pointed upward. i need to work on the itb's a little more because my air filters touch my hood a little. i'll probably not mess with that though, it doesn't really bother me. but what does bother me is that my couplings pulsate really bad. i'll probably do something about that tomorrow.


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

wow, i finally have the wideband hooked up and working through megatune. it is sooo nice. Definatly one of the best things to get for stand alone. i now know why people that have them say it is a must have item. 
my fuel map is getting pretty good. although i have a problem (maybe not a problem) with the afr's randomly going from 15 to like 10 and back to 15 again. why does it just change so crazily? it's not like i mash on the gas and it does it, it does it while cruising


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## GLEE60 (Nov 10, 2005)

Hey Sir... What if one were to want to purchase your car?


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

*Re: (GLEE60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GLEE60* »_Hey Sir... What if one were to want to purchase your car? 


well it happens to be for sale








http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3351886


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: (gli_ryan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gli_ryan* »_although i have a problem (maybe not a problem) with the afr's randomly going from 15 to like 10 and back to 15 again. why does it just change so crazily? it's not like i mash on the gas and it does it, it does it while cruising

sounds like your AE is kicking in on you. perhaps your threshold is too low. itb's are noticeably jumpier than stock, and it doesnt take much to hit a low threshold.


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

ae is kicking in. what is everyone using for their acceleration wizard settings?


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*Re: (gli_ryan)*

Is your TPS reading under cruise stable? I was running a TPSdot of 1ms with no issues, on a 16v Passat Auto TB, and my AE was fine. I recently switched to MAPdot as a trigger, and found that my AE was even better...but then again, I'm running a G60 swap.


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: (gli_ryan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gli_ryan* »_ae is kicking in. what is everyone using for their acceleration wizard settings?

every motor is different, and so are the threshold settings based on the tps youre running. slowly increase the threshold until it stops kicking in randomly and tune from there.


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

well i have it set to 2.0 and it is still doing it. i think because in the accel decel trigger dot i still had it set to mapdot and i adjusted the tpsdot threshold. do i have to change the accel decel trigger dot setting to tpsdot?


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

so i fixed part of the accel wizard, i fixed the cruising part anyways. how do i adjust it so that it doesn't add so much fuel? everytime i hit the gas a bit so much fuel dumps in it that it almost stalls


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

i also worked on the cold starts, they still suck but its better. i still need way more fuel than what im getting. i still need to figure out also the accel wizard. 
im going to treffen this weekend so hopefully i will get some strip times. i need to work on the wide open throttle mixtures some more first, i'll do that during the 10 hour drive.


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

you really need a good base map before messing around with accel and cold start settings.
If you have a wideband, set up the AFR target table, turn off accel enrichment, warm the car up, then just go drive around for 15-20mins while logging.
You can use MegaLogViewer to analyze the datalog and your MSQ, and it will suggest changes to the VE table that you can save
Once your base map is good, you can start playing around with accel enrichments and warmup settings


_Modified by xr4tic at 2:31 PM 8-17-2007_


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

*Re: (xr4tic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xr4tic* »_you really need a good base map before messing around with accel and cold start settings.
If you have a wideband, set up the AFR target table, turn off accel enrichment, warm the car up, then just go drive around for 15-20mins while logging.
You can use MegaLogViewer to analyze the datalog and your MSQ, and it will suggest changes to the VE table that you can save
Once your base map is good, you can start playing around with accel enrichments and warmup settings

_Modified by xr4tic at 2:31 PM 8-17-2007_

ok, that will make a lot more sense. im still trying to learn how to use this whole setup. 
on an exciting note, i just got 35mpg going down the highway!! that was driving easy and for 220 miles. then we drove for about 170 miles and drove the crap out of it and still got 34mpg. so my itb's get great gas milage on the highway, and have lots of power and make me happy.
edit: i got 37 mpg that next fill up. i think i can get 40 with a less full car and since now im running around 17 afr on the highway cruising.




_Modified by gli_ryan at 11:29 PM 8-27-2007_


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

well i have been getting about 1 question a day about my build on this. so i have been updating this thread just about every time i get a question so that this thread can possibly become "the thread that has all the information posted or linked to about itb's and megasquirt". that way it'll be easier to understand. keep those questions coming, i dont mind but sometimes im busy and can't answer right away.
im adding here that for my brake booster to work at all i put some vacume hose straight into where the stock injectors for the itb's once were and connected them all together. i then ran them to the brake booster. that is how i got the brakes to work properly

also one of the most important things to do when your car starts running is to make sure it is timed correctly. that was my first big problem. to time it go into spark from megatune. then go to spark settings. set the fixed angle to 0 or 6. what ever number you set that too is what you need to time the car at. so say you set it too 0. when your timing the car and turning the dis for your spark advance, you need to time it to top dead center. i think it's the line on the flywheel. it helps to have another person to rev the motor, it just makes it easier and more precise. after the car is timed set the fixed angle back to -10. that means that the megasquirt will use the settings in the msq. file that you are using. it sounds hard but is really easy. i thought i could get away without doing this but it ended up holding me back much longer than i had imagined.
_Modified by gli_ryan at 11:27 PM 8-27-2007_

_Modified by gli_ryan at 11:27 PM 8-27-2007_


_Modified by gli_ryan at 11:45 PM 8-27-2007_


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

*Re: (gli_ryan)*

So to get the brake booster working properly you just used the stock injector ports from the ITBS and fit a hose in each one and connected them all together and ran them to the Master Cylinder ? Right now I'm having my pops Machine me an intake manifold up and I was wondering instead of using the stock injector ports on the ITB's if you could just run one fitting from the intake manifold to the MC? Do you understand what i'm trying to ask or did i not explain it right lol


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

I only have 1 injector port on the #4 ITB tapped for a vacuum line going to the master cylinder, it seems to work good so far. Others have done it this way as well.


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

hmmm think i may just do that then...what size tubing did you use?


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

hmm, yea i never tried just one vacume line. so i just used all four injector ports. i tried using the four small ports on the bottom of my itb's but that didn't provide enough vacume.


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

I think it's 10mm silicone tubing, and I used 3/8" barbed fittings to hook it up.


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif awesome thanks man!!! I'm drawing up the plans for my intake manifold right now and i was wondering about the brake booster lol thanks for answering my question guys lol


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

im sure you are but i wanted to make sure of this, your putting your brake booster in between your throttles and your motor right? not between the air cleaner and the throttle, right? i hope im sure you know but you dont get vacume between the air cleaner and the throttle body....just making sure....not saying your dumb...but making sure...


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

*Re: (gli_ryan)*

lol yeah i know straight from the ITB Injector port to the Mastercylinder right


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

yes


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## riegerscirocco (Oct 1, 2002)

please tell me you have a check valve in that vacuum line to the master cylinder???? just checking!!
(is it in that black line that looks connected to it?)


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

yeah, that black plastic line is the factory line to the brake booster. There is a yellow/black check valve in it.


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## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: (gli_ryan)*

Just wanted to say thanks for posting all this info up, over this winter I plan on going this same route with my 87 GTI. You really awnsered alot of the little questions I had. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

sweet! glad to hear some feedback. if you have any other questions let me know. the only thing i never got to do was fine tune the cold starts. i tried but it wasn't responding the way i wanted. but now the car is sold....and i miss it


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## 83Coupe (Dec 4, 2004)

*Re: (gli_ryan)*








very helpful http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## gli_ryan (Nov 12, 2005)

good! im still around. sold the car though so i haven't been adding to this. i think it is pretty complete thread though with most of vital information. if you have any questions ask me and i'll help if possible


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## Sinner44 (Oct 11, 2006)

it is extremely helpful....my project is just about to get back onto its feet...had a few setbacks with school...no beuno


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## nic_s (Dec 8, 2003)

This thread rocks.


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## dmitry88 (Apr 26, 2006)

*Re: (nic_s)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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