# CIS volvo FD guys....



## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

I am wondering what PSI you all are hitting, and with what parts hooked up and what ones not.
With just the 240FD, and the full throttle switch I can hit 10 PSI. It starts bucking at 11, but A/f isn't going lean. Too much fuel for this PSI? When I hook up the WUR, it bucks much sooner.
I never hit 1450F for EGTS.... SO I know I am not going lean. usually 1350 or so on long uphills at part throttle and 5 psi, and 1400 or so under full boost. 8 psi or even at ten.
So... butcher, peter tong, stevelangford, and Andrew.... I wanna know about your setups, and what your measurements are. I should be able to get 2-3 more PSI out of this I think....
Thanks..
JAmesEDIT: Also, the car surges at about 1750 to 2250 when just trying to MAINTAIN speed. Anyoe else have this issue? Known causes? Works fine in this range when accelerating through it... sign of too much fuel? My plugs are the right color, or at least # 4 is.... help


[Modified by AdidasCU, 8:13 PM 3-13-2003]


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (AdidasCU)*

AdidasCU,
My car is sitting out the winter - but its starting to warm up. Remind me of this and I'll revisit this when I get the car out for the summer...I do have a wideband a/f so I'll be able to tell you when it starts to lean...
I didn't experience a surging problem on my car...a/f ratio was good all around without hooking up the vac/boost to the volvo 240t regulator ie dithering 14.7, then 13.x at transition then 12.x under boost. I have a pressure switch (adjustable) set to put the CIS-Lambda to a steady 60% duty cycle when 1-2 psi hits...
I was able to run 9 psi with the Eurospec head and ABA block (stock pistons) - 10:1 CR... with the previous pulley. Car ran great. Fueling doesn't seem to be a problem - timing was definitely a problem. After the 9:1 JEs were installed the motor needed a bit more advance to idle properly. Throttle response went down. The timing curve on neither the 8v or 16v boxes seemed to match well to the motor. Going to a yet smaller pulley helped mask this a bit - throttle response went back to really good, but I ran into the limits of my VSAM setup (ok for low boost, not high)...
What are you doing for your timing curve? I've got a Crane hi-6TRC thats going on soon as a short/mid term solution. 
regards,
peter tong



[Modified by Peter Tong, 1:07 AM 3-14-2003]


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## purplerabbit (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

I'm also getting surging while trying to remain at a constant speed in that rev range or there abouts. I'm constantly reminded of airleaks so there we go so it doesn't have to be said again. I don't drive my car/fix it while until april but i'm interested in the exact setup you guys have? like do you have all the stock idle crap hooked up etc? In may I'm going to try to convert to crossflow but still use the cis injection. anyways I'm sorry I can't test and tune with you guys but like peter I'm not driving till april. And yes its hell not driving.


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## greggearhead (Jul 28, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (AdidasCU)*

OK, I am not turbo'ed or using a 240 fd, so break me in gently. Adidas - think I met you at a CoSprgs event. Ebay talk.
Anyway, If the 240 fuel distributor functions identically to a VW one, I would think that the fuel delivery curve would be "not quite right" for a small displacement turbo motor. Under boost at all rpms it might be very close, but under very light throttle with light boost, the 1.8 or 2.0 VW motor would require about the same fuel as a non-turboed motor. The 240 fuel would be delivering enough fuel for a 2.4 liter motor, too much. Now, because Adidas is at altitude, it may be exagerating the problem enough so that it shows up. 
A buddy running a blown 22RE Toyota motor added fuel by getting bigger injectors - basically bumping the fuel curve up - similar to a larger deliver FD if I understand it correctly. He washed the cyl walls and had way to much fuel under light boost, and not enough under high boost. 
Now I am going to get hypothetical. In the motor I would like to build, I would use the Audi WUR and if that wasn't enough, see under what conditoins it wasn't enough (under boost, hgh rpm light throttle, whatever) and go from there. 
Something else to consider, the fueling requirements of a turbo vs. a roots type blower should be different - the turbo usually has a more "progressive" power and fuel requirement curve, where the blowers are usually more linear. Therefore the 240 fd might be a better solution for a blower than a turbo. 
Of course, you guys are actually trying this stuff and I a talking out my ass - just thought I would throw some more thoughts into the mix and try and learn something.


[Modified by greggearhead, 9:55 PM 3-14-2003]


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## greggearhead (Jul 28, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (AdidasCU)*

OK, I am not turbo'ed or using a 240 fd, so break me in gently. Adidas - think I met you at a CoSprgs event. Ebay talk.
Anyway, If the 240 fuel distributor functions identically to a VW one, I would think that the fuel delivery curve would be "not quite right" for a small displacement turbo motor. Under boost at all rpms it might be very close, but under very light throttle with light boost, the 1.8 or 2.0 VW motor would require about the same fuel as a non-turboed motor. The 240 fuel would be delivering enough fuel for a 2.4 liter motor, too much. Now, because Adidas is at altitude, it may be exagerating the problem enough so that it shows up. 
A buddy running a blown 22RE Toyota motor added fuel by getting bigger injectors - basically bumping the fuel curve up - similar to a larger deliver FD if I understand it correctly. He washed the cyl walls and had way to much fuel under light boost, and not enough under high boost. 
Now I am going to get hypothetical. In the motor I would like to build, I would use the Audi WUR and if that wasn't enough, see under what conditoins it wasn't enough (under boost, hgh rpm light throttle, whatever) and go from there. 
Something else to consider, the fueling requirements of a turbo vs. a roots type blower should be different - the turbo usually has a more "progressive" power and fuel requirement curve, where the blowers are usually more linear. 
Of course, you guys are actually trying this stuff and I a talking out my ass - just thought I would throw some more thoughts into the mix and try and learn something.


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## kimosullivan (Aug 12, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (greggearhead)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Something else to consider, the fueling requirements of a turbo vs. a roots type blower should be different - the turbo usually has a more "progressive" power and fuel requirement curve, where the blowers are usually more linear. Therefore the 240 fd might be a better solution for a blower than a turbo. 
[HR][/HR]​Actually the fuel requirements for turbo/super/natural are all the same and depend on the fuel. For gasoline, it's 14.7:1 air to fuel. It doesn't matter how that air is put into the engine. All that matters is that the correct ammount of fuel is added along with it. The reason for different power responses with respect to RPM, is the different air mass input. If you're fueling too much for idle with a turbo, it'll still be too much fuel with a super.


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## greggearhead (Jul 28, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (kimosullivan)*

quote:[HR][/HR] The reason for different power responses with respect to RPM, is the different air mass input. If you're fueling too much for idle with a turbo, it'll still be too much fuel with a super.
[HR][/HR]​That's basically what I meant - just didn't word it correctly. The turbo adds more air with higher rpm as a percentage while the blower adds the same amount air for each rpm. So what I was trying to say was that the air/fuel apetite of the two boosted motors was different. 
Probably still aren't communicating what I am trying to, but oh well. My point was really that the Volvo FD probably was of course adding more fuel, but probably not at the rate that the increased airflow required it.


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (AdidasCU)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
JAmesEDIT: Also, the car surges at about 1750 to 2250 when just trying to MAINTAIN speed. Anyoe else have this issue? Known causes? Works fine in this range when accelerating through it... sign of too much fuel? My plugs are the right color, or at least # 4 is.... help
[HR][/HR]​James, you might want to describe exactly what you mean by surge. Do you mean you are cruising along and the car picks up speed without any change in throttle input? Is it repeatable in this rpm range or does it randomly occur?
What does your boost/vacuum gauge say when this occurs? If you have an A/F is it still dithering around 14.7 while this occurs? What is your CIS-Lambda duty cycle last time you checked?


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (greggearhead)*

The volvo fuel dist works fine, it's all dependant upon how much air the motor can take in. Bigger motors take in more air, and the CIS accomodates it by providing more fuel. Smaller motors take in less air, and the CIS accomodates that as well by providing proportionally less fuel. CIS is a very elegant system in that fashion. There are ultimate limits to the flexibility, you couldn't run a 'vette on VW CIS(although you could on a MB or Porsche 928 CIS fuel dist) but a VW 1.8 vs a Volvo 2.1 isn't the limit.


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## Benbuilt4u (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (AdidasCU)*

and to think i was the first to do this on my 16v back 3 years ago and posted it hear and started this fad. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Butcher (Jan 31, 2001)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Andrew Stauffer)*

Like he said. Mine is not running so I can't elaborate on a running Volvo set-up but on paper a fuel dist does not know what engine it has.


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Benbuilt4u)*

I actually got the idea from Tim Thoming on the west coast about 3 years ago. 
Which came first, the Ben or Tim?(not really trying to imply that either of you are chickens OR eggs.....aw nevermind, it was stupid.........


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## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

Sorry... working a lot.
It is like a small surge then bog... almost like a misfire which I've had at high boost before. gets worse the longer I hold that speed and RPM. No vac on my boost gauge, but my A/f bounces during this. I think it may be a dead O2 sensor!?!?!
Thanks for the help guys!


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## purplerabbit (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (AdidasCU)*

that would be sweet if it was just an O2 sensor.
Thank you for keeping us posted on how things are progressing because mines all connected and sort of working I just need to find my air leaks and reroute my bov back to the intake once its warmer out.
I'm quite confident I'll be able to fuel/push 10+psi with this distributor and WOT switch reliably and acurately.
Is the rest of your cars operation good, ie: how's your idle/running below that rev range.
Also if you have a minute could you explain your idle characteristics in detail, what I mean is are you using a aux air reg, if so how is it plumbed, and are you using that idle boosting pod thingy on the passenger side strut tower. How do you have the port that gives air to the injectors connected?
I would really appreciate it if you took the time to explain those things, 
thanks
Sandy http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (purplerabbit)*

quote:[HR][/HR]that would be sweet if it was just an O2 sensor.
Thank you for keeping us posted on how things are progressing because mines all connected and sort of working I just need to find my air leaks and reroute my bov back to the intake once its warmer out.
I'm quite confident I'll be able to fuel/push 10+psi with this distributor and WOT switch reliably and acurately.
Is the rest of your cars operation good, ie: how's your idle/running below that rev range.
Also if you have a minute could you explain your idle characteristics in detail, what I mean is are you using a aux air reg, if so how is it plumbed, and are you using that idle boosting pod thingy on the passenger side strut tower. How do you have the port that gives air to the injectors connected?
I would really appreciate it if you took the time to explain those things, 
thanks
Sandy http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif [HR][/HR]​I am pushing 10PSI rght now...
Strut tower thingy was kick with the AC... CRAP
air shrouded injector line is blocked
Still have the air thingy that goes behind the intake.


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## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (greggearhead)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
Anyway, If the 240 fuel distributor functions identically to a VW one, I would think that the fuel delivery curve would be "not quite right" for a small displacement turbo motor. Under boost at all rpms it might be very close, but under very light throttle with light boost, the 1.8 or 2.0 VW motor would require about the same fuel as a non-turboed motor. The 240 fuel would be delivering enough fuel for a 2.4 liter motor[HR][/HR]​In general this isn't a correct statement. The CIS fuel distributor measures mass air flow, so if you're within the operating range of the FD it will provide the correct A/F ratio. i.e the FD doesn't know the size of the engine, it only knows how much air is going thru it.
Where this statement is not correct is where the metering plate moves past a change in the angle of the wall of the airflow cone. As the wall gets steeper the A/F ratio will get richer. Where this happens may not be where you want it to happen when adapting an FD to a different engine. To restate, the FD is designed to richen at a specific mass airflow, and that amount may or may not match the requirements of a different engine.
In any event the Volvo FD seems to be a good match for an FI VW.
quote:[HR][/HR]A buddy running a blown 22RE Toyota motor added fuel by getting bigger injectors - basically bumping the fuel curve up - similar to a larger deliver FD if I understand it correctly. He washed the cyl walls and had way to much fuel under light boost, and not enough under high boost. 
[HR][/HR]​You're correct here. Adding bigger solenoid injectors will bump up the A/F ratio in proportion to the change in injector flow rate without changes to the fuel map. Fortunately, adapting a bigger FD is not the same as this example.


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## kimosullivan (Aug 12, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (J. Daniel)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
In general this isn't a correct statement. The CIS fuel distributor measures mass air flow, so if you're within the operating range of the FD it will provide the correct A/F ratio.[HR][/HR]​Actually CIS measures the air VOLUME flow, not mass flow. The warm up regulator compensates for air density differences due to altitude and temperature (some what) to adjust the fuel flow and correct for the volume flow basis. But I'm sure that's what you meant.


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## Dr. Dave (Apr 12, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (kimosullivan)*

Dyno results with wideband 02 sensor on my car from sunday in Chicago.
The engine : 1825 cc ( 1.8 .040 overbore ), ported/polished hydraulic head, 260 neuspeed g60 cam, Calloway stage 2 turbo/intercooler, open exaust, Volvo 240 FD (80 psi), Audi WUR ( thanks Adidias cu ). MSD 6BTM ignition
5psi run with 27 degrees total timing with 02 disconnected from cis computer ( for a 50% duty cycle on the frequency valve: 152-153 hp from 6000-6500, peak tq was 134 at 5200 ( 125 + from 3000 to almost 6500 )
A/F was 13 til 4k than 12 at 4.5k dropping below 10 at 5k, then up above 10 at 6k and steadily rising until a max of 11.5 at 6750 ( operator stopped run )
8-9 psi with boost surge ( fluctuating boost due to a misadjusted electronic boost controller ) yielded a peak of 176 hp but A/F was ( with 50% duty cycle on the FV ) down to 11.8 from 3400 to 4600 then steadily rose ( waving due to boost fluctuations ) up to 13.5 at 5500-5600 ( run stopped for safety )
using 65% on FV duty cycle postponed the 13.5 A/F ratio until 6100 but the A/F dropped to below 10 when the prevoius run was 11.8
with about 10psi ( still with wavering boost ) max power was 186. This time we ran with 50% on the FV until abput 5k then switched up to 80% which gave us an A/F of below 10 at 3600, rising above 10 at 4500 to 12 at 5100 -5600then rose above 13 from 5700-6000, 6100 had almost 14 so run was aborted.
My conclusions for my motor were :
run with the volvo FD and Audi WUR with 50% FV duty cycle at 5 psi
up to 7-8 psi run same as above but add a switch to change FV to 80% at 5k
9psi and above ? get my additional injectors installed ( controlled by HKS AIC ) and go back to dyno for more testing !
Hope the info is helpful


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## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Dr. Dave)*

quote:[HR][/HR]My conclusions for my motor were :
run with the volvo FD and Audi WUR with 50% FV duty cycle at 5 psi
up to 7-8 psi run same as above but add a switch to change FV to 80% at 5k
9psi and above ? get my additional injectors installed ( controlled by HKS AIC ) and go back to dyno for more testing !
Hope the info is helpful







[HR][/HR]​So how is this acheived? Why can I get 10 PSI with no problems with no WUR attached, but you need AIC at 9 PSI?
weird


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## Dr. Dave (Apr 12, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (AdidasCU)*

ported and polished head with a bigger cam and open exaust = much more airflow and therefore much more fuel .
Just capping the exaust at 5 psi cost me 15 horepower 
hope that helps


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Dr. Dave)*

Good post, Dr Dave. 
So we have Stephen Webbs JH turbo running the Volvo fuel dist putting out hp in the mid to high 160s and Dr Dave seeing into the 170s albeit with some EIC help. Nice #s showing what the Volvo stuff is capable of.....it would be interesting to add Peter's info when get's some #s for his s'charged motor. Adidas, have you had that baby to the dyno? I can't recall......


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## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Andrew Stauffer)*

nope... sometime this spring.


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## RoccoRcr (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (AdidasCU)*

just wondering, if those numbers andrew put up are whp, or hp? thanks (im obviously dreaming for my setup)


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## Dr. Dave (Apr 12, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Andrew Stauffer)*

Just to clarify I did not use the AIC at all during those tests so they were all done with audi WUR and volvo FD . The only changes to fuel was altering the duty cycle to the frequency valve by altering inputs to the factory computer.
5psi = 153 hp Peaked at 6700 rpm
8-9 psi was 176 hp ( running a little lean after 5 k )
10 psi was 186 hp ( running 12:1 at 5k, up to 14:1 at 6k when run was stopped)
If I had enough fuel at 10 psi it should be good for 195ish hp
all these #s are at the wheels corrected to SAE standard


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Dr. Dave)*

Ah thanks for the clarification, Dr Dave. Great #s for a CIS set up. 
Roccorcr, these are wheel #s, the power that hits the pavement(or chassis dyno rollers) so to speak. Not bad for a CIS car,eh? These guys are putting out better than VR6(and stock 1.8t) power on old school stuff. 

What were those tq #s like, Dr Dave? 



[Modified by Andrew Stauffer, 3:10 PM 3-20-2003]


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## RoccoRcr (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Andrew Stauffer)*

yeah cis making over 170whp is friggin awesome!







I think its so cool that people can take an older system (that is genius if you ask me) and beable to tune their car to produce some massive power for these light cars. It seems like a lot more fun to me then playing with a puter.
ps: just wanted to say thanks andrew for the deal on the turbo, FD and wur! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 



[Modified by RoccoRcr, 1:26 AM 3-21-2003]


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## Dr. Dave (Apr 12, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Andrew Stauffer)*

5psi = 153 hp @ 6500 and 134 tq @ 5400 ( but made 125 tq at 3000 and didn't drop below 125 until 6300-6400 )
10 psi= 186 hp @ 5600-5800 ( leaning out above 11.5:1 at 5000 rpm ) and 185 tq @ 4900 ( with 160+ tq above 3500 )


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Dr. Dave)*

Very nice #s indeed. Do you happen to have the scans of your dyno sheets - would be very interesting. If I can find a decent chassis dyno I'll try to hit it this summer as well...
I say lets take CIS to the limit...
regards,
peter tong


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## RoccoRcr (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

I am putting a turbo set up in this summer, and i was wondering what the frequency valve is and how does manipulating the duty cylce affect anything, and what does it affect?
also what is a "safe" a/f mixture to run? with out going too lean and with out going too rich. also what is pinging and what fixes it?
(i do have someone who is helping me put this together but i also want to know what hes going to be doing.)
thanks all
mike


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## kimosullivan (Aug 12, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (RoccoRcr)*

quote:[HR][/HR]i was wondering what the frequency valve is and how does manipulating the duty cylce affect anything, and what does it affect?
also what is a "safe" a/f mixture to run? with out going too lean and with out going too rich. also what is pinging and what fixes it?
[HR][/HR]​The frequency valve is used in closed loop systems to fine tune the AFR based on input from the oxygen senesor. The frequency valve is basically like the cold start injector, physically. But, instead of injecting fuel into the manifold, it routes it back to the tank. By varying the duty cycle (ammount of time open versus closed) the flow rate is altered. Altering the flow rate alters the pressure. This pressure is used to push on the top of the piston if the fuel distributor. The more pressure, the less the sensor plate lifts the piston. The less the piston is lifted, the less fuel injected. So, if you want to richen up at the top end, increase the duty cycle, reduce the control pressure, allow the piston to rise more, and get more fuel injected.
A safe AFR is 14.7 for crusing to about 12 for full throttle. Individual oppinions vary. 
Pinging, aka detonation or knock, is abnormal combustion due to high compression and low octane fuel. It causes erratic pressure spikes in the cylinder, and can break ring lands, ring, and rod bearings. It's _bad_.







The tendancy to knock increases with high compression, increased temperature, advanced spark, low octane, high forced induction pressure.
The best fixes are reducing CR, increasing octane, or intercooling on FI setups. Work arounds include retarding spark, injecting extra fuel to cool the intake charge, and alcohol or water injection. Spark retard and extra fuel cause reduced power output and extra pollution. Alcohol/water injection has the possibility of running dry when you least expect it.
Try Bentley Publishers for handy manuals about all the Bosch fuel systems. They're inexpensive and very informative.


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## RoccoRcr (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (kimosullivan)*

thanks kimo for the quick response, yeah with the set up i have sotck jh, with i believe 8.5-1 cr, cant recal exactly. I will also be running FMIC and def will up the octane. for the rest of the setup, volve FD and WUR and t3 50trim, .48a/r (thanks to andrew) so im hoping i can make some real power.








thanks again for the info. 
-mike


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## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (AdidasCU)*

How do you change the Duty Cycle, and what is the optimum one for about 10 PSI? what is it without the WUR, and with the WUR. If I hook up my WUR I get bucking and surging at about 5-6 PSI, where that only happens at 11 w/o the WUR. I waana, and think I should be able to safely hit 12 PSI, but have not found the correct combination.


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## kimosullivan (Aug 12, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (RoccoRcr)*

quote:[HR][/HR]thanks kimo for the quick response 
-mike[HR][/HR]​Quick, yes, but WRONG!







I looked in my book about it last night, and the freq. valve doesn't alter the piston pressure. That is only controlled by the WUR. The freq. valve adjusts the fuel flow by controlling the pressure differential across the metering slits in the piston in the fuel dist. Higher duty cycle means more flow thru freq. valve, lower pressure on the bottom side of the diaphram in the fuel dist., higher pressure differential across the metering slits, more fuel flow. The freq. valve is used to adjust flow based on the O2 sensor.


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## Dr. Dave (Apr 12, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (AdidasCU)*

Duty cycle on the frequency valve normally varies to keep the A/F ratio at 14.7 to 1 . This is controlled by the computer via inputs from the O2 sensor which tells the computer the A/F ratio. It normally operates in the 45%-55% range.
If you disconnect the O2 sensor ( easy to do via a switch ) the duty cycle goes to a flat 50%
When your full throttle switch is activated it goes to a flat 65% ( I have mine hooked to a switch in the car) . 
And if you jump the coolant switch to fool the computer into thinking its cold it goes to a flat 80% ( be sure to disconnect the cold start valve as this may come on if you jump the coolant switch.
Also the audi WUR does not increase the total amount of fuel the system flows. It only changes the control pressure ( decreases under boost ) which pushes down on the airflow plate. Less pressure = more plate movement at a given airflow level resulting in a richer A/F ratio. but when the plate hits the top of its travel it will flow the maxumum amount of fuel it can regardless of the control pressure. It will just reach the end point sooner relative to airflow versus a standard WUR .
The frequency valve allows more ( higher % )/less ( lower % )fuel to return to the tank from the lower chamber in the distributor and less pressure there = more flow to the injector. So increasing duty cycle on the FV increases fuel flow at the injectors.
Sorry I don't have a scanner for the dyno runs.


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## Dr. Dave (Apr 12, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (AdidasCU)*

Adidias, I don't know what your best combo would be but I would suggest setting up switches to control the FV % and then going to a dyno with a wideband O2 meter and experimenting.
My car with the WUR hooked up and 80% FV will load up at 7+ psi
I did do comparison runs with the WUR hooked up in the 8-9 psirange and 50% made significantly more power in the 3500-4500 rpm range ( 20 more hp at 4000 ) versus 65% duty cycle on the FV.
hope that helps.
Later Guys !


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## Dr. Dave (Apr 12, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Dr. Dave)*

Also the better midrange power ( 50% in the above run ) was at an 11.8 A/F ratio, the 65% run was below 10 A/F until both started to rise at 5000 rpm where the power was pretty even.
Based on these #s an A/F ratio of 10:1 vs 12:1 didnt make a big difference in power but below 10:1 lost power quickly and above 12:1 slowly loses power and starts to get risky


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## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Dr. Dave)*

OK... so when I set the idle mixture to avg. 42% on the dwell, that corresonds to what FV %? Too high or too low? Maybe my baseline is off causing problems. So would it be good to kick in the coolant sensor at 10 PSI so I can go under boost longer? If so how do I set it up? This is since the WUR isn't working for me. Shoul I just use the lower port of the WUR since it only changes the control pressure a little relative to the upper port? Maybe we can get some help from Audi 5K turbo guys who know this real well....


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## Dr. Dave (Apr 12, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (AdidasCU)*

The 42% on the dwell meter is 42% on the FV
Try this, while your car is idling and you're monitoring the dwell ( FV % ) activate the full throttle switch and it should go to 65%, this is what happens when you floor it.
When I used the other side port on the WUR i got nochange at all in control pressure so don't bother trying that.
If I remember correctly to get the 80% duty cycle you need to jump the temp switch or you can tap into the wire coming out of the O2 system control unit ( a brown/red wire on 82-84 rabbits ) and ground it.
to see if you've done this right check for a change on your dwell meter.
then try that setup to see if the car runs better or worse.
you may want to hook that up to a rpm/ and - or / boost switch for a little better control.
Doing these tests on a dyno with a sniffer eliminates guessing as to what works better or not so I'd highly recommend dyno testing.


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Dr. Dave)*

So how are everyone's Volvo 240 turbo CIS setups running? Mines working just great...this past saturday I finally got the Lambdaboy wideband O2 meter permanently mounted into the car (underneatht the stock 3 gauge panel). I see exactly 14.6-14.7:1 at cruise. Under boost (with boost switch triggering 80% freq. valve duty cycle) I'm seeing things go pretty rich 10.xx range. I'll be experimenting a bit with the fueling this coming week...will post results...


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## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

I was just about to post a question on the BEST/ideal setup for us with these available parts....
Volvo FD, Audi WUR, Hobbs switch, Full throttle switch, thermotime switch (where)
I think I cracked a ring on my 130K JH bottom.... Swapping it out.... Getting a G60. I dunno if it deid from fuel or age, but I want my fuel to be spot on for the new motor.... So best setups, and how everything is hooked up would be great.
Glad to hear the success of the cabby Peter!


----------



## Dr. Dave (Apr 12, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (AdidasCU)*

With volvo FD and VW WUR, 80% dutycycle on FV, 52 psi control and 82 system pressure, ported/polished head, open exaust calloway intercooled turbo, 260 neuspeed cam/hydraulic head
5 psi = 155 hp and AF at [email protected], [email protected],[email protected], [email protected]
7psi = 169 hp AF at [email protected], [email protected],[email protected], above [email protected] ( run stopped )
7psi thru exaust = 158 hp AF [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]
5spi = 137tq
7psi = 156 ish tq
7 psi thru exaust = 152 tq
runs fine
ran 2 track events @ 7psi thru exaust and no problems other than a broken hub ( obviously not engine related )
hope to get back to dyno soon to use AIC with 2 extra electronic injectors and 14-15 psi range
Adidias, perfect time to build a killer motor !








later
Dave 


_Modified by Dr. Dave at 3:01 AM 6-11-2003_


----------



## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Dr. Dave)*

So shouldn't 10 PSI be easy with the Volvo FD?


----------



## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

Ok reflowed the injectors four more times:
Results for cylinders 1, 2, 3, 4:
139 142 132 151
144 149 141 162
144 149 145 164
137 142 133 145
Above are cc's for 30 seconds, full sensor plate lift, 80% freq duty cycle, stock 1982 CIS pump, using a lab spec graduated cylinder that I purchased esp for the purpose... one of the above injectors is new...
If you take an average of 145cc/30 sec then we are talking 1.16 litres per minute. Assuming 170hp/l then we are good for just over 197hp...or 232hp naturally aspirated... a 290cc/min CIS injector would be equivalent to a 340cc/min pulsed injector at 85% duty cycle...
I rerouted the vac/boost lines to use the volvo 240t CPR and disconnected the pressure switch - will do some testing tomorrow to see what the a/f looks like...


----------



## Dr. Dave (Apr 12, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (AdidasCU)*

I think 10 psi with a volvo FD is reasonable with a closed exaust, stock head and cam. 
I did do a 10 psi run with open exaust and ported head and cam and made 185 tq and 186 hp ( at 5600 rpm ) but it was at AF of [email protected] and [email protected] and almost 14 @6100
these #s are at the wheels so factor up for crank #s
I believe 160-165 would be tha maximum safe wheel hp for a volvo FD car with no other injectors


----------



## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Dr. Dave)*

Dave,
Have you flowed your 240t FD? I've got two of them here (one for a spare, one in the car). The FD in the car has the individual injector pressure adjusters (hex bolts where the fuel lines bolt on). The other does not. I'm curious if there are any flow differences between the two... I also noticed that my spare has fuel line bolts on all 6 fuel ports.
After flowing my injectors last night I took a few minutes to plumb in the extra vac line to the 240 turbo CPR, and disconnect the pressure switch. Initial impressions (only have driven 10 or so miles this way) are that the motor likes this better - with the onset of boost fueling doesn't go rich as fast on the wide band. Seems like it has picked up a bit of extra power at least on the butt dyno. I think I'll keep the pressure switch disconnected for now. If the O2 meter indicates lean I can always connect it back up, and up the pressure setting. One thing I like about running the 240 turbo CPR - the OXS jetronic box is still in closed loop all the time for good economy...car also seems to run a bit smoother...

_Modified by Peter Tong at 11:12 PM 6-11-2003_


_Modified by Peter Tong at 11:14 PM 6-11-2003_


----------



## arvcube (Aug 11, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

has anyone found a difference between the audi 5000t wur and the volvo240t one?


----------



## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (arvcube)*

Hi Arv,
You'd need to have someone that has both of em first who is willing to install them on the car. I can tell you I'm not (as my warmup regulator is buried underneath the charger). One of these days when I get some spare time I'll try to graph out the response of the 240t CPR vs vac and pressure...I think Stephen Webb is running the 5k CPR so maybe he would be willing to do that...
I'd be curious to see the results. I can say now that the way Stephen had it (OXS closed loop always on, and CPR hooked up to manifold) seems to be better than the way I had it - pressure switch...


----------



## Dr. Dave (Apr 12, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

Peter,
I flowed my volvo fd as well as my vw fd. My highly scientific methods ( not ) were to put all the injectors in one container and set the flapper door at full lift and to run the pump for 60 seconds. I don't remember the actual #s but the % increase over the vw unit was 40% or so. My volvo fd doesn't have the hex adjusting screws so its as adjusted as its going to get








on the dyno I picked up some midrange power by not running the boost sensitive wur and a 80% duty cycle versus boost wur and 50% duty cycle ( no o2 hook up )
Keep us posted as to your results and whenever I get mine back on the dyno I'll post for you guys.


----------



## hasenrennen (Feb 15, 2003)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Dr. Dave)*

I've been watching your posts of this discusion for a while, very informative!!! I also have the volvo fpr, audi wur, fts.....It's been on line for the past 4-5 months and have reached 12lbs no problem, but a couple weeks ago when I'm just crusing down the road at 3-4k rpm, my a/f stoich gauge starts dropping to lean and almost falls of the gauge, then if I accelerate it kinda stumbles and then in boost it comes back on line and plenty of fuel?????







Is it possibly a bad wur??? do you have any info on what I should check?? Thanks for the help!!! Andy


----------



## hasenrennen (Feb 15, 2003)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (hasenrennen)*

..............Or is the problem with my frequency valve???? just bypass it with a solid line or just unplug it????????


----------



## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (hasenrennen)*

On the fuel side it could be any number of things in combination including:
temporary fuel pressure drop off
binding sensor plate
electrical fault causing the frequency valve to stay shut...
restrictive control pressure line, etc.
on the air side:
intermittent vacuum leak (crack in one of the rubber boots?)
To give you example I had a boost related problem where my motor would stumble at 4k rpm at the 7 psi level. Changing the charger pulley to a smaller one dropped that to 2.5k. Turned out I could blow right through my aux air regulator as well, also had a leaky charcoal canister line...allowed unmetered air past the CIS flow plate.. I now have check valves on all my idle lines...
Is the problem constant or randomly intermittent?
Have you hooked a dwell up to the duty cycle connector while you drive? I would first check the basic mechanical stuff - ie hook the pressure tester up and flow the injectors to see that things are in spec and that they are flowing equal (so you can trust your O2 meter) at various levels of plate lift.
Just my $.02 worth...


_Modified by Peter Tong at 8:24 PM 6-18-2003_


----------



## hasenrennen (Feb 15, 2003)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

Thanks for the reply, yes it is constant and not random..... I did hook up a pressure test, injector test good! No vacuum leaks....but will probably re-check, the sensor plate is good to go!!!! I was thinking FV problem myself and or a rogue electrical connection due to the that the FD doesn't seem to be staying "pressurized" to feed the injectors..........can you elaborate on the restrictive pressure line!?!?! I did switch out my current FV to an 
Audi 5k......and it seemed to do worse...the original back in!!!


----------



## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Dr. Dave)*

Ok, brought the Cabby in to have it baselined (running the Volvo 240t FD) on the local dynojet.
Completely raw baseline - no adjustments...conservative settings...
boost tube hooked to the Volvo 240t CPR... Lambda circuit functioning (ie I didn't disable the lambda function):
At ~8 psi at 5200 rpm the motor made 158 whp. 
Max wheel torque = 166 at 4500... 
After adjusting the retard knob on the Crane to approx .8 degrees retard per lb of boost, peak whp went up to 167 at 5200 and peak tq to 167 at 4600... 
Max hp occurs at a lowish value. This is because the a/f was going into the 13.x range starting at 5600rpm and transitioning through 14.0 at 6000 rpm. As such I just ran the motor up to ~5500 for most of the runs...probably didn't help that I had the lambda circuit functioning and trying to lean things out...
For the last run I plugged in the pressure switch to trigger 80% frequency valve duty cycle on the Volvo 240 turbo CIS fuel distributor under boost...to see how it helped. Gained about 14 ft lbs in torque at 6200 rpms...and about 20 up top vs the baseline...however with the switch hooked up (along with the CPR seeing boost) a/f went below 10 (killing torque alot) from 2.5k to 5.3k...climbing to 12.2 a/f at 6k, and 13 at 6.3k...
A few data points for the torque curve - 133 at 2300, 144 at 2500, 153 at 2900, then in the 160-166 range from 3600 rpm to 5200... 
My timing curve = 6 degrees initial + ~21 degrees added in by the knock sensor ignition at 4.5k - ~.8 degrees per lb of boost - so about 21 or so degrees... 
I think the motor can handle a bit more advance - I gained about 15 ft.lbs by going from 1 degree retard per lb. to about .8... 
So there are a few things that need to be worked on...my goal is to see 170-175 whp with the existing setup... I think that is the max the CIS will support (may try raising system pressure)...
I thought I'd add another data point to Dave's and Stephen Webb's previous dyno's with the 240t FD...all the above is with a G-grind set at around 3 degrees advance...15" wheels with 205/50/15s...
If anyone has any comments feel free to post...I'd like to see us CIS die hards hit the 190 whp mark soon...



_Modified by Peter Tong at 12:14 AM 7-12-2003_


----------



## Stephen Webb (Apr 12, 2001)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

Peter, what is the displacement on that engine? Impressive numbers for 8 psi supercharged...
If you recall my max HP was 162 @ 11 psi....
-Steve


----------



## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Stephen Webb)*

Steve, its a Eurospec 1.984 litre block - basically an ABA (old style with squirters) but with the stock pistons replaced with 9:1 JEs...capped with Eurospec head (with some flow mods) and G-grind at 3 degrees advanced...
I'm reasonably happy with the results - don't care so much about the boost value - just not exactly happy that she's going abit lean up top. I cranked some extra values into the VSAM to drop control pressure further but no dice. My only explanation for that is that the plunger is hitting top position at around 5500...so dropping control pressure is useless...going to the 80% helped though and keeps things under 13 until about 6300, but floods the motor under 5500 (and just kills torque)...
I might need that gizmo of yours to progressively set the FV at a certain rpm....I'll probably up the fuel pressure a bit and see how that does...
Here are three of the runs (baseline, middle of the road, and 80% FV run with the pressure switch)...I left out the highest run...











_Modified by Peter Tong at 3:09 PM 7-12-2003_


----------



## SavageRocco (Apr 23, 2003)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (AdidasCU)*

I am running a system close to this. I have a VW euro 16v FD ( told it was a motor sport peice, distributor is all aluminum, and there is a funky lip ring under the air meeter vane) with the audi 5000t WUR. I am running 100 PSI fuel pressure and pull hard to 11 PSI. I have a 87 rocco 16v with mostly stock internals. TT rod bolts, raceware head studs and a .050" copper head gasket. 
THe problem I seem to be having is fuel delivery. My pressure drops as the load increases. I think it may be time for the 150K factory fuel pumps to get changed out. 
The car pulls very hard untill 6k, then it starts missing. I am sure it is a fuel deleviry problem now, but sure was a ----- finding it. 








http://www.konnections.com/bns....html 
These are some fab pics, goning to be running hard as soon as I get the fuel delivery worked out. 
Just built a 3" mandrel exhaust system friday night for the car, talk about a lot of cutting and welding... turbos sure do like free flowing exhausts...


----------



## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (SavageRocco)*

Savage,
I replaced my fuel pump prior to dynoing... I'd definitely have the old pump replaced...
Its looking like I'll be purchasing 3 new injectors - currently using 3 used and 1 new. The old ones flow about 38cc's per minute less than the new unit... yes thats a small amount but I need all the flow I can get...flow should go from 1.16 litres/min (good for 12.5 afr at 195hp or 166 whp) to ~ to 1.32l/m (should be good for 12.5 afr up to 224hp or ~191 whp)...more fuel can be had by going to 90% duty cycle on the frequency valve as well...
I'll probably wait to up the system pressure until last...
Peter T.


----------



## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Stephen Webb)*

_Modified by Peter Tong at 2:07 AM 8-11-2003_


----------



## eldorado (Sep 29, 2001)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

Can you completely bypass the frequency valve on the volvo fd's??? I have a volvo turbo fd, but no electronics for the frequency valve and since my car no longer requires an emission test I would rather do with out and make the system 100% mechanical.


----------



## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (eldorado)*

If you mean by completely bypass - plugging up the hole - then I don't think thats a good idea - the whole FD is setup for an approximately 50% leak at that point. Your best bet would be to get some kind of adjustable valve and plumb it in...
The only reason I'm bypassing the FV is because its stealing fuel that would otherwise be mine under boost...at this point I am greedy for all the fuel I can get...


----------



## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

Peter... IYO, is it better to run only the Full throttle switch, or only the WUR for 4-5 PSI? 10 psi?
Also, I wanna hit up a dyno so I don't kill this motor. What variables do I have as options to adjust fuel? Spark? Whatever....
TIA!


----------



## Butcher (Jan 31, 2001)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

I do not know if this helps but during the time of the Grey market cars [80's era] there were several cars that came thru my shop with an aftermarket lambda system. These were plumbed into the warmup regulator line and adjusted the fuel mixture that way. Some of the warmup regulators were adjusted so the lambda had control over both sides [rich and lean]. As time went by the systems would break and since there were no parts to make them work the systems had to be removed and the warmup regulator had to be readjusted so the fuel mixture would not be too rich [or lean]. I would suspect, although I have never tried, that the lambda system might be able to be removed but the warmup regulator would have to be adjusted so the system would not be running too rich/lean. You would loose some of the features that the Bosch lambda system gives you like full throttle enrichment, o2 sensor function, etc. if you removed the lambda system, but I think you could remove it. If it did not work you could still change it back to stock. Of course if you do not have an accurate fuel pressure gauge and had little to none experience you are most likely going to cause you more headaches.


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (AdidasCU)*

AdidasCU,
I never had a chance to dyno with just the full throttle switch...mine was with the CPR hooked up and trying to lean things out under boost (but the CPR overriding it to supply the right mixture). 
Right now I have a double banjo going into the fuel feed line supplying fuel to the FV. Under boost when the stock FV goes to full closed (trying to lean), I have the VSAM staging the second FV to progressively bleed down the lower chamber pressure. 
If I didn't have that I'd used some kind of rpm triggered switch - in line with a pressure switch to switch to 80% at 5400 rpm or so...(where it starts going lean on my car - your car will be different).
When I get to the dyno I'll have an opportunity to test both setups again...

_Modified by Peter Tong at 9:06 AM 8-1-2003_


_Modified by Peter Tong at 9:06 AM 8-1-2003_


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## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

Where can I get a switch that will activate the full throttle switch at a certain RPM?
Or maybe an 80% duty cycle... (What is the hookup?)


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## eldorado (Sep 29, 2001)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (AdidasCU)*

can the frequency valve be removed, and bypassed. My caddy is a cis basic vehicle and I don't want to add any electronics so can the lambda be bypassed completely??


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## panel (Jan 5, 2003)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Dr. Dave)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Dr. Dave* »_Peter,

on the dyno I picked up some midrange power by not running the boost sensitive wur and a 80% duty cycle versus boost wur and 50% duty cycle ( no o2 hook up )
Keep us posted as to your results and whenever I get mine back on the dyno I'll post for you guys.

Is this how you adjust the duty cycle (3mm allen)....with the 02 sensor disconnected?


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## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (panel)*

Would you recommend an MSD RPM actuator to use as a switch to turn on the WOT switch at about 5200 PRM? Would this level out the fuel for a bit longer????
Should be fairly easy to wire up right?!?!!?


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (AdidasCU)*

Hi,
That would work - I was trying to see if there was something less pricey for you...I'd wire up the pressure switch (ERL makes a nice small one) and the rpm switch in series...what rpm depends on your setup/air flow etc. But ~5400 rpm is where its at on my car...
I'm getting my halfshafts back sometime this week so perhaps can make another dyno session soon...tonight I'll flow the new injectors...
regards,
Peter Tong


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

hi Folks - this evening I had the time to do a run of 12 flow tests on the Volvo 240t CIS system. In my previous tests I was running 3 used injectors + 1 new. 
I ran 8 tests with battery voltage at 11.5v, and 4 at 14v (battery charger connected). I didn't have the pressure gauge plumbed in...
Results:
cylinder 1 2 3 4 (cc/30sec) voltage note
122 124 123 123 - 11.5v - 0% frequency valve, OXS temp switch not jumpered to force 80% frequency valve
133 132 129.5 135 - ~11.5v - VSAM FV bypass 100%, OXS not jumpered
137 134 130 143 - ~11.5v - VSAM FV bypass 50%, OXS jumpered
131 132 131 133 - ~11.5v - VSAM FV bypass 50%, OXS not jumpered
125 127 125 127 - ~11.5v - VSAM FV bypass 25%, OXS not jumpered
123 126 125 125 - ~11.5v - VSAM FV bypass 0%, OXS not jumpered
138 134 134 145.6 - ~11.5v - VSAM FV bypass 0%, OXS jumpered
136 132 133 144 - ~11.5v - VSAM FV bypass 0%, OXS not jumpered, O2 sensor grounded
170 165 165 174 - ~14v - VSAM FV bypass 0%, OXS not jumpered, O2 sensor grounded
169 166 164 174 - ~14v - VSAM FV bypass 0%, OXS jumpered
156 154 155 161 - ~14v - VSAM FV bypass 100%, OXS not jumpered
133 132 133 133 - ~14v - VSAM FV bypass 3%, OXS not jumpered
One thing I had wanted to test was whether or not the frequency valve bypass was working as I thought it would and to ensure that flow was even across all injectors. It turns out that at lower battery voltages as long as the frequency valve duty cycle is kept low injector flow was even (within 4cc's/min) across all 4 injectors. On jumpering the OXS temp switch to bring FV duty cycle to 80% my #4 injector would consistently outflow the others on the order of around 8%. I did notice that #4 is the one closest to the FV fuel outlet port. If these FDs are similar to the VW ones internally the port has a single drilled hole going to the closest lower chamber with all the other lower chambers connected to each other via fuel ports. Once voltage increased #1-3 injectors came in line flow wise with #4 within 3%...
In view of the above - my conclusions are that the running voltage the CIS fuel pump sees is incredibly important when conducting these tests and for fueling performance on the road. Its quite possible on a car running close to the limit while driving with all accessories running and voltage dropping down to 12.x a dangerous lean out condition could occur...with each injector dropping 60cc/minute off its flow rate. Not good!
The other conclusion is that my FV bypass is working and I should be able to control it with my VSAM setup to flatten my air/fuel ratio to a consistent 12.5:1 from 5250rpm til 6300 which should give me a good bit of extra power up top. Even thought the FV bypass is definitely working - it is using the VW style of frequency valve - which evidently flows less than the Volvo 240t/Porsche 924t style of frequency valve. With my FV bypass set to 100% I was only able to lower the lower chamber pressure enough to get within 26cc/min of the standard Volvo 240t unit. In short my bypass needs to use the bigger Volvo valve. I do have a spare 924 turbo FV - so hopefully can plumb that one in. 
In view of the above I should have enough fuel with the existing bypass - 1.252 litres per minute with ~14v to reach 185 whp (then need to subtract Lysholm drag). In order to keep performance at that level I'm thinking I may have to purchase some type of voltage clamp for the fuel pump circuit..
regards,
Peter Tong



_Modified by Peter Tong at 8:53 AM 8-11-2003_


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## arvcube (Aug 11, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

great info peter...you've definitely done some good research on this topic...concerning the voltage clamp...could you possibly use a "kenne bell boost-a pump" to keep constant voltage to the fuel pump to aleviate the voltage fluctuations, thus relieving fuel loss?
here's a link..
http://www.kennebell.net/acces...p.htm


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## SvenRasta (Nov 16, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (arvcube)*

This may be a bit of a silly question but is there a CIS hybrid system out there that anyone know's of that can accomodate up to 320-350hp at the wheels? Just curious...upcomming turbo project.


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Schraml MotorSports)*

There are some 8 pot fuel distributors that should be good for that...the CIS 911 turbo's were running into a wall at around ~420 crank hp using 6 of the 8 pots...I don't know of any that are updraft however...you'd have to replumb for a downdraft setup...I'd love to experiment more with the higher flowing setups but too little time!


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## SvenRasta (Nov 16, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

Should I abandon the CIS and go with G6o injection system...


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## RoccoRcr (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Schraml MotorSports)*

i thought you guys might be interested in my turbo set up, there are a few pictures here http://scirocco.dhs.org/vw/list/D_Bubb/ My uncle and I, mostly my uncle built it. Of course we still arn't finished and still havent had time to test out different combinations of fuel tricks. Currently though i am running the WUR and FD, and about 7 psi. With 6 psi i kept up with my friends 15.4 se-r. And with 4 psi and 12 degrees advanced i kept up with my uncles 132 whp rocco. 
Keep up the great information guys.
_mike


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (RoccoRcr)*

Hi Mike, 
Nice job with the project...Didn't Dan Bubb help Andrew Stauffer with his project Rabbit? Sounds like a good guy! I found four different voltage clamps/constant output voltage regulators, Jacobs Accuvolt, Boost-a-pump (as mentioned) MSD Fuel pump booster and one other. All of them are >$200. I think the less expensive route will be just to insert a shim into the system pressure regulator to give a bit more headroom. This week is quaife week so it will have to wait. If anyone knows of a reasonably priced constant voltage regulator please post!


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## RoccoRcr (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

yup, dan bubb is definetly a good guy to have as an uncle! and how were you controlling your ignition timing?


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (RoccoRcr)*

I'm using VSAM - plugs right into the CIS-E knock box wiring harness and lets you laptop control the stock timing. You can add or retard in .3 degree increments anywhere in the load/rpm map. The built in MAP sensor in the VSAM box doesn't like to see boost though so I have it controlling the NA map, and the knock sensor ignition triggers the Crane which then retards the ignition. Not the best setup but it works!
I'm using the fueling part of VSAM (it has two maps) to control my frequency valve bypass...heres a pic of the laptop screen...












_Modified by Peter Tong at 6:39 PM 8-13-2003_


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## eldorado (Sep 29, 2001)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

I have access to some new audi 200 turbo, non lambda cis fuel distributors. Cost is 150ea. and will only work with the larger audi turbo and volvo turbo air flow sensors. the bolt pattern is different than the vw units. These units are the same units used in the volvo turbo's except 5 holes are used rather than 4 and there are no lambda contols. This eliminates this frequency valve and allows the fuel distributors potential to be fully exploited using the proper WUR regulator. This unit should be capable of flowing 300cc/min. When it comes to cis this is basically the most fuel you're going to flow out of a fuel distributor without going to a mercedes 8 unit and combining 2 outlets into one. I need to buy a min. of 4. Anyone interested please let me know.


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## eldorado (Sep 29, 2001)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (AdidasCU)*

bump


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (eldorado)*

Dan Bubb is definitely a good guy to count as your friend, he's incredibly helpful, knows his schtuff, and it very aggressive when it comes to "doing it and doing it right". He put my Quaiffe in for me in his garage in the course of a Saturday. I still owe him for this incredible favor.....
Mike, I'd love to run you in my Rabbit to get an idea about power. I've got less weight than your uncle's beautiful rocco. Tell him power steering and ac is for senior citizens


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## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Andrew Stauffer)*

Damn young punks! Install a Quaife, get called an old fart! Install a turbo, get called an old fart!
Wish I could add something useful to this thread, but we really haven't pushed the envelope with tuning Roccorcr's car yet.
Did notice that installing the Volvo WUR didn't seem to do anything for WOT A/F ratio, but it did lean out the A/F during non-boosted/high manifold vacuum operation. So, it seems it doesn't do anything for power, but it does help fuel economy quite a bit.
Anybody else with a WB-O2 notice this?
A race between Andrew's Rabbit and Mike's turbo Scirocco (at current boost)would be very interesting. I don't think I'd bet on the outcome.


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (J. Daniel)*

Hi Dan,
I've run with both just a pressure switch to trigger 80% duty cycle and no Volvo CPR, and no pressure switch with the Volvo CPR. The Volvo CPR definitely drops the a/f ratio on my wideband...I saw this on my dyno plots as well...
hope this helps,
Peter T.
PS: Peloquin diff is finally on the way for my project Cabby...hope to get it in ASAP...


----------



## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

Hi Folks, 
I finally got around to getting this:








for my CIS setup... to solve the fuel pump voltage and accompanying pressure drop off when my injector flow hits in the 340-350cc/min range...
More flow tests coming soon to verify that this fixes it...
With luck I'm hoping to hit the magical 200 whp mark on CIS - will see... currently running 57mm Lysholm pulley...



_Modified by Peter Tong at 9:07 PM 6-9-2004_


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (AdidasCU)*

I found a turbo Audi 5K and it has a FV and a 6 hole FD using only 5. Is this the same part as the Volvo stuff everyone refers to?


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (art.clemens)*

Hi Art...
You want the fuel distributor with a bosch part # that ends with 114 and the matching flow plate and frequency valve...
Take it easy fellow old timer r.a.v member


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## 2L Bunny (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Peter Tong* »_Hi Art...
Take it easy fellow old timer r.a.v member









LOL, nothing to add, other then I'm glad I swapped one onto my car when I was running CIS years ago. Since then it's been a swap whore. Still running it Peter?


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (2L Bunny)*

Hi Tim, yup still running your old Volvo 240t unit - yes it runs great...thanks again...


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## panel (Jan 5, 2003)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Peter Tong* »_
You want the fuel distributor with a bosch part # that ends with 114 and the matching flow plate and frequency valve...

 Is this Bosch number from an Audi or a Volvo?


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## BoiseMK1GTI (Jan 28, 2004)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Dr. Dave)*

Question.... sorry about raping your thread, but I need answers FAST....... 
84 GTI with a K26 turbo at 5-6 psi.... what kind of power am i looking at and can my fuel system support it without the volvo 240t dizzy and audi WUR??? I've heard that the stock system can handle like 180 crank hp.... is this true? I am going to turbo my car this week, and need it running by friday, all I need to know is if my fuel system can handle the 5 psi of boost the K26 will put out...? I will be putting a volvo 240t dozzy and audi WUR by the following week, just need the car to run turbo by friday.... Thanks
David


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## panel (Jan 5, 2003)

This guy says he's getting 200hp from an Audi 5k fuel distributor
http://www.ffp-motorsport.com/...x.php


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## panel (Jan 5, 2003)

Well? 200 ponies from a CIS set up? If he can then I think you can too Peter T!


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## aventari (Jul 25, 2000)

*Re: (panel)*

great thread








Here's my JH with a 50 trim T3, volvo 240 FD and CPR and 1-pass Saab 900 IC
5psi right now, I was running 5-8(creep) before I installed the IC(and blew 4 sets of pistons) and now it runs 4-5psi with the intercooler pressue drop.


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (panel)*

Hi Panel, 
I was only about 11 crank hp shy (if you use a 1.15 correction factor on the dynojet whp) of 200 crank. I'd like to hit 200 at the wheels (around 230 crank) on the dynojet with CIS. Given my fuel flow levels it should be possible... keep in mind with the charger pulling about 10% worth of torque off the crank the motor will be making closer to 250 in actuality.


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## panel (Jan 5, 2003)

With the Volvo 240 T FD do you still retain the original VW black box/brain or do you have to take the Volvo one to splice in?


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## Stephen Webb (Apr 12, 2001)

*Re: (panel)*

I kept my stock VW box. I did use the volvo frequency valve, though. (it fits properly on the FD, where the VW one didn't look too easy to adapt).
-Steve


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (Stephen Webb)*

The Volvo frequency valve should be used since its a higher flowing unit...
I found this out when doing testing of my FV bypass. 
Hope this helps,
Peter T.


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## 85roccoZ400 (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: (Peter Tong)*

i have read this forum and been reaching the volvo vs. euro CIS and so far from what i have read from here is that the volvo one is good but i'm running the euro CIS right now.
With a audi 5000 WUR, i have a EGT gauge and i was running 12 PSI before i blew up my tranny.
I didnt get a chance to dyno run it but i was running low 11 EGT temps from 5-6500 with no EIC hooked up.
What do you guy think about this?


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

Well folks...initial impressions with the Kenne Bell BAP... it works...or appears to with the wideband readings. I'm seeing midrange afr readings of 10.x...with brief dips into 9.x:1 in the midrange, where I was previously at 11.x... I've got too much fuel...even with the 57mm Lysholm pulley and the 270 cam...
I will be doing flow testing to verify fuel flow at the top end...



_Modified by Peter Tong at 11:42 PM 9-25-2004_


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## cant get a password (Sep 24, 2004)

can you run a fuel pressure activated switch to energize the boost a pump when the pressure drops off where you need more fuel?Just starting my turbo setup with the volvo fd and cpr so I am reading up all I can before I start was going to run a wideband as well for tuning


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (cant get a password)*

Hi Mike,
The BAP includes a pressure switch thats plumbed to your manifold... I just wired it into the existing Acquamist adjustable switch that was on my manifold already...currently set to activate the BAP at about 2 psi or so...
As far as pressure dropping off, the increased voltage will turn the pump faster so that the stock pressure regulator will get the proper volume necessary to keep up the stock 81 psi system pressure... I found mine was dropping off...down to about 65-68 psi at full sensor plate lift at 12v...
The difference in flow between 12 and 14v is quite significant... on the order of 80+ cc/min per injector on my car...


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## cant get a password (Sep 24, 2004)

another question are you getting your o2 reading from your wideband for the frequency valve or still using the single wire o2?Would the faster responding signal of a wideband have a positive effect on the valve ?


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (cant get a password)*

I've got a Lambdaboy wideband mounted below my stock Cabby gauges full time... with the wideband mounted on an extra bung in the Brospeed header.








Believe it or not I had my Lambdaboy running the CIS using its simulated narrow band O2 feature and it actually responds slower than the narrow band sensor... wide bands have a slower response time...


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

hi fellow CIS diehards...
I thought i'd post up a link to my dyno results on CIS...
The KenneBell BAP definitely works. I did about 4 dyno runs trying it at different settings. Last run actually was too rich on the top end - at the 180-190 whp level...actually lost power due to the overfueling - with the AFR dropping down in the the low 11, high tens range...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1693276
Only two more tricks left to extract more fuel... but I'm confident another 50 cc's worth of fuel per injector per minute can be found







I really do think that the upper limit is 220 whp (with a charger) and 240 whp with a turbo...
I don't think my head in current condition will flow enough...gotta do something about that!


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## MattyDVR6 (Dec 8, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

congrats dude. You rock


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

i finally hit 400+ cc's per minute per injector guys! Woohoo!


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## ErosNJ (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

Do you guys have any idea on the fuel limit on the European Fuel distributors? I have basic CIS no lamda, Only vacuum advance distributor and a ignition module.


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (ErosNJ)*

I've requested that a few of the folks that have the Euro fuel distributors test flow them but then never hear back... unfortunately I don't run the Euro fuel distributor so can't be of any help...


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## 85roccoZ400 (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*









Damn it I will do the flow test when my motor goes back in this week for you


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (85roccoZ400)*

Slacker!


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## DoctorT (May 6, 2005)

I'm running a T3/T4 on my JH engine 15psi boost with Volvo fuel distributor, Audi WUR, Volvo frequency valve and it's way to rich at over 4500 rpm going under 10 A/F and starts misfiring. I have the boost line connected to the WUR is that the problem?


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (DoctorT)*

Is your CIS enrichment switch still connected?


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## DoctorT (May 6, 2005)

If you mean the full throttle switch yes it's disconnected.
I unplugged the boost line to the WUR today and at cruising i have 14.6 A/F and at full boost around 12.7 A/F.
Fuel ratio is fine now but i still get missfiring over 4500 rpm.


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (DoctorT)*

I would check ignition components... coil, rotor, cap...
What plugs are you running? I use W6DPO...


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## vfarren (Sep 11, 2000)

*Re: (Peter Tong)*

Also check plug gap, it should be around .028 - .030
You might be a prime candidate for some sort of CDI. The Bosch stuff works great when it works right, especially in NA applications, but you might need more juice for boosted conditions.

_Quote, originally posted by *Peter Tong* »_I would check ignition components... coil, rotor, cap...
What plugs are you running? I use W6DPO...


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## Cabby-Blitz (Sep 2, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (85roccoZ400)*

Id love to hear some flow numbers for the euro fuel dist. I have running on the car now also. If I were able to pull the injectors I would test it. But last time I tried I wasnt able to pull them and also new injector orings were installed and I dont really want to mess those up.


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## Stephen Webb (Apr 12, 2001)

*Re: (DoctorT)*

I have been having some missfire problems lately myself.
I am running the enrichment switch but not running the boost line to the CPR. I was getting misfire in the 5-6000 RPM range when running about 11 psi. I have an adjustable duty cycle gadget that I was setting to 50-60% or so (down from the stock 70%) duty cycle, and I was able to clear up the misfire for the most part. I still get some misfire, though, and I'm considering some sort of high performance ignition system.
I have changed the plugs, cap and rotor. The wires are new, etc...
Hope that helps...
-Steve


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (Stephen Webb)*

If you have a 16v Scirocco coil lying around you might try it... otherwise I'd upgrade to a CD ignition... I've had good performance with the Crane Hi-6 with retard unit...W6DPO plugs, and Magnecor 7mm wires...
On a different note boost wise. I tried putting on my new 54mm Autorotor/Lysholm pulley for more boost and it turns out this bugger needs to be machined to clear my non extension front housing... 








Looking forward to getting it on - to see how the CIS copes with it fueling wise... my Lysholm spreadsheet model indicates I should break through 200 whp at around 4600 rpm...and pass 100 whp at around 2500 rpm... I am very interested in seeing if I can dial the fuel curve in at a flat 11.9:1 across the board this time...
HTH,
Peter T.


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## 85roccoZ400 (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Cabby-Blitz)*

I will be doing some testing in a few weeks.
I will post my results.
Peter sounds good, can wait to see the car up over 200 whp.
Can wait to bring my pig to the dyno either.


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## gtivdubdude (Mar 20, 2005)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

Here is my dumb question. I'm getting ready to turbo my scirocco. (hopefully I win the auctions for the good's I need form adidas!) I have been reading this for a while and I'm kinda confused. Where is the FV located at? I'm having a fuel issue right now and my engine is still stock, with the exception of exhaust, K&N, and A2 throttle body. When my car idles the a/f gauge goes from stoch to lean rapidly, but most of the time it drops right off the scale and then comes back up. I have checked many thinks, and I'm still stumped....And when im at WOT the gauge only goes into the first light of rich when I know it should go all the way to rich. Any Idea of this problem? Will the volvo FD and audi WUR take care of this problem?
Chris


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## Residentevol (Sep 19, 2000)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (gtivdubdude)*

okay the FV is on the distributor (fuel) its got a little plug hooked up to it...i cant really help your other problem you say its not turbo'd yet so why are you worried about not running rich yet? maybe i read it wrong


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Residentevol)*

Hi Folks,
Got my smaller pulley back today.... with luck it will fit and I will be pushing 17 psi... looking forward to wideband measurements under boost to see how the CIS is doing...
Peter


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## Residentevol (Sep 19, 2000)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

awesome man...ive been looking into an updated AIC possibly the SS one...the thing is i already have an extra injector mounted before my T-body and i might as well take advantage it...


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## gtivdubdude (Mar 20, 2005)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Residentevol)*

Well I have almost everything to boost my rocco. I was wondering if anyone would have detailed pictures of the fuel lines going to the volvo FD. I can see I have to bend some lines arround but I just want to make sure I get them in the right place. And also where should the two vac/boost lines go off of the WUR? And one more thing where do I hook up the other vac/boost line off of the back of the advance/retard can?
Chris


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## Cabby-Blitz (Sep 2, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (gtivdubdude)*


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## gtivdubdude (Mar 20, 2005)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Cabby-Blitz)*

Perfect!
Chris


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## ABA Mk2 (Nov 24, 2003)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (gtivdubdude)*

Just wanted to thank you gentlemen for the most informative cis turbo thread there is. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (ABA Mk2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Mk2* »_Just wanted to thank you gentlemen for the most informative cis turbo thread there is. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Well its not done yet! I (and hopefully a few others - like Stephen Webb) have to hit 220whp on CIS yet


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## 85roccoZ400 (Jan 27, 2002)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

Any other dyno?


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## Stephen Webb (Apr 12, 2001)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Peter Tong* »_Well its not done yet! I (and hopefully a few others - like Stephen Webb) have to hit 220whp on CIS yet









Haha...I'm still working on it. I'm shooting for 200whp first, though. I've been struggling with transmission problems (finally fixed), and engine oil leaks. I'm also still dealing with a high boost misfire problem. Hopefully I can hit the dyno soon, but it may have to be a 180WHP run for now -- I'm hoping the dyno run can illuminate potential causes of my high boost miss...
-Steve


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Stephen Webb)*

I know you'll do it Steve... the goal is 220 whp on CIS or bust...








What plugs are you running?
I just had my stock VW TB boot crack so replaced the VW boot/metal inlet tube with this 3" silicone tubing from the CIS to the charger inlet ... seems to work well.... I do wonder how much the straighter shot out of the CIS will help... dyno will tell...
Right now I'm having some part throttle fueling problems... too rich under part throttle partial boost region... gotta fix it...
Peter










_Modified by Peter Tong at 10:26 AM 7-16-2005_


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## ErosNJ (Oct 21, 2002)

*G60 cam*

Will a G60 cam show any gains on a turbo/SC motor? I have one laying around from a g60 cam swap.


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## gtivdubdude (Mar 20, 2005)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (gtivdubdude)*

Well I'm now getting ready to hook everything up. If anyone can give me some help as to where to hook all the vac/boost lines at I would be very pleased...
Very new at this turbo thing....Chris


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (gtivdubdude)*

Anyone have new flow test results to report?


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## Residentevol (Sep 19, 2000)

no but one question which side on the CPR is the bleed down line? when looking from the front left or right?
I was still having my problem of car starting running fine then after about 1 minute it would stumble out and die. My stabs in the dark so far have been to drop the gas tank and completely clean it out....replace fuel pump/accumulator fuel filter and my next thing will be injectors/o-rings I hope this fixes my problem....Peter still got some of those injectors?


_Modified by Residentevol at 2:48 AM 8-8-2005_


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## dohc (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: (Residentevol)*

What are the highest flow injectors for CIS?
So the FV has its own port on the FD?
Or is it basically the same port that a fully mechanical CIS uses for the fuel return?
So the FV hooks up to the lower chamber and the fuel return line?


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## Residentevol (Sep 19, 2000)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (arvcube)*

Just to bring this back from the dead just wondering how all of your guys cars are running..My car is running really well no bucking or surging at 10psi with a volvo240 FD and a callaway microfueler (ancient technology I know but I think its better then nothing) I also have a crane Hi-6 (thanks for hte idea peter) controlling my timing and im still saving up for my wideband so I can take the guesswork out of my fueling.. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Residentevol)*

Wow...
I'm not sure why this one was blackholed originally (as there was alot of good info in here)... but thanks for bringing it back from the dead...
Peter


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## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: CIS volvo FD guys.... (Peter Tong)*

Bump for some very useful data!


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