# APR Stage 2 Beta Review, A New Hope...TTRS Misfire Conclusion (Return of APR)



## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

Okay TTRS enthusiast, I have the honor of christening the next round of controversy of the search for the perfect tune. I hope we can all take a deep breath and regain our composure and just behave like the friendly people that we really are. 

Here goes. I took my TTRS to European Legacy Motors today. They are one of two APR dealers that I know of in Houston. I was very impressed with both their facility and their professionalism. The owner, Pete, was happy to discuss various topics with me and I think I have found the shop that I will stick with. 

I drove to ELM around 10:15 a.m. and I am happy to report that my old friend the "misfire" had returned from its very short vacation. I dropped off the car around 11 a.m. They had the new DP in an APR box and it was much larger than I expected. I asked them to save the old piping, just in case. They gladly provided a shuttle for me back to my home which is about 25 miles away. At 4 p.m. I called to check on the DP install and updated tune. I left a message and was called back within a couple of minutes (a very good sign). 

I was informed that they were done with the DP, but wanted my permission to remove the ECU because they could not get the programming to load through the OBDII port. I was under the impression that they had to do this anyway because that is what was done with Stage 1. They said that in most cases once a car is flashed, they can use the OBDII port and they were able to do it with a 2012 TTRS a few months ago. At any rate, I authorized them to remove the ECU. I appreciate the fact that they asked. 

About 4:45 the shuttle picked me up. The driver was the same nice lady who did not speak much English. The drive back was quite interesting as she clearly was not accustomed to driving with other cars on major freeways. It was a little hairy riding shot gun in a mini-van about arms length from the car in front of me for most of the drive, but I digress. 

I arrived at ELM and I saw the manager and the owner. They were both as friendly as before. They had the old DP in the APR box for me and we chatted a bit. I asked if they had any issues and they said no. I asked if they drove the car and they said just a little to make sure there were no codes being thrown. They did not do any WOT runs. I was a little hesitant and I should have asked for someone to ride with me for a couple of WOT runs, but I did not. 

So I paid for the install ($400 for DP & $100 for the ECU flash) and I was on my way. I turned the car on and I heard a slightly deeper rumble than before. Things were sounding promising. 

I turned onto the surface street and did a quick first and second pull at about 3/4 throttle. Everything sounds good. Power feels a little stronger. 

Next I was on the freeway in rush hour traffic. I had the opportunity to try my hardest to duplicate the "misfire" from the previous tune. I tried in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th gear. Previously I was so good at duplicating this problem, I could do it almost every time at around 3200 RPM's. I AM HAPPY TO REPORT THAT I COULD NOT FEEL ANY MISFIRES. In about 25 miles back home in 88 degree temps with high humidity, blue skies and birds chirping, everything FELT just fine.

But wait, I heard something new. Was it just the sound of the new DP? Was it just because there was a large jump in power? I could not tell. On the freeway I was mostly in 4th gear and higher and of course there is a lot of freeway noise. Oh and one more thing I had this huge box of old exhaust parts sticking all the way from the back of the car, almost to the dash. 

I got home and everything seemed quite good, except for that nagging sound. So I took all the junk out of my car.. everything. I decided to go out onto some of my favorite back roads near my house. I did several WOT pulls from 2nd and 3rd gear. Now I was sure there was something different and I don't think it is good, but I don't want to cry foul either. It may be something easy to address, perhaps there is something that needs to be adjusted with the DP.

I am attaching a video with 3 pulls and I think that you will be able to clearly hear what I heard. I also think that I did some pretty good narration while driving, shifting and videoing George Lucas watch out!

My guess is that the sound is the clutch slipping, but I have never heard a clutch slip. So I don't know what this sounds like. Nothing felt strange, it just sounded strange. The power was perfect. The power was much stronger than anything before. Power came on earlier. Power was much much more linear. The previous tune had a couple of predictable surges.

So here is the recap of my narrative above:

1. No more misfire
2. Power much stronger in all areas
3. Power more linear 
4. Power comes on earlier (less lag)
5. No check engine lights
6. Odd sound on WOT from about 3000 RPM's to over 6000 RPM's in 2nd and 3rd (maybe others)

A couple of things I have not mentioned yet
1. Gas milage seems way to high. If it is correct, then I am getting at least 8 MPG better. I am afraid that if this is correct, that I may be running utra-lean (I hope not). 
2. I want to restate for the record that this file is called BETA. It definitely has more power, but I do not know if this power is what the final tune will have. I assume, it would be no less than this. 
3. I have not been paid anything by APR and I paid full retail for everything. I respect the Engineering of APR and of other tuners such as UM. 
4. I do not know if there is a NLS or LC on this tune. I have not been told either way.

Someone please listen to this video and tell me what the sound is!


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## canuckttrs (Feb 5, 2012)

yup, odd sound.


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

If the clutch slipping then the engine will rev fast without the car gaining speed in the same rithm. I don't think it will do this once engaged and you would feel it. I would check the intake and more importantly the dp links. I can't hear well in my phone but it sounds like air


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

William, i watched your video a few times and i don't think its the clutch slipping. An easy way to test is 3k in 4th and floor it if the rpms rise faster than the speed you'll feel it. It maybe a rattle from something that's in contact with the down pipe. i think Ive read the fit is tricky and tight.good luck carl


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

Here is a higher res video with a little better sound quality


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## canuckttrs (Feb 5, 2012)

I'd check the dp and it's fitment wrt tolerances. Probably rubbing against something under load. Either bad install or pipe doesn't fit properly.


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

second gear? you need to do a pull in 4th from 3-5k. carl


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

I don't hear anything odd... could it just be the change in the exhaust with a larger downpipe? Do you still have a stock exhaust otherwise?


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Very hard to tell from a video, but I would suspect an exhaust leak since you just had the DP installed. I would also double check all of the intake piping/connections and intercooler connections.

There is very little room to get to the DP to turbo v-band clamp when installing a new DP. It is easy to get to the screw to loosen/tighten the v-band clamp, but difficult to hold the DP in place and position the v-band clamp correctly around the DP and turbo flanges. I had to have someone help hold the DP from above, while I tried to position the v-band clamp using only one hand... total PITA. Next time around I will drop the subframe, which would make it much easier/faster, but that is off topic...

Let us know how it turns out. Definitely take it back to the shop and have them check out the car in any case.


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

1. No more misfire
2. Power much stronger in all areas
3. Power more linear 
4. Power comes on earlier (less lag)


Perfect description of the GIAC tune we've been enjoying for many months! Glad you're experiencing the same!


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

I hope you are all collectively right. If it is just the DP that will be a quick fix. But it seems to happen just under WOT, not 3/4 throttle, not high RPM's without much load

John: In terms of breathing I have a K&N air filter (first major upgrade, worth at least 30hp I reckon), new DP and factory sports exhaust. No I don't think the sound could be normal. 

Can someone put my mind at ease and tell me if they are certain it is not detonation. I have heard detonation before and this does not sound like it, but I suspect detonation can make different sounds. 

Should I just put her to bed for the weekend and take her to the shop on Monday or would it be okay to do some additional test runs?


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

Williamttrs said:


> I hope you are all collectively right. If it is just the DP that will be a quick fix. But it seems to happen just under WOT, not 3/4 throttle, not high RPM's without much load
> 
> John: In terms of breathing I have a K&N air filter (first major upgrade, worth at least 30hp I reckon), new DP and factory sports exhaust. No I don't think the sound could be normal.
> 
> ...


You can run a vagcom log and checkto see if its pulling timing that will tell you if it's detonation . I don't think that's it usually it shows up at high torque in a high gear . Carl 
.


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Williamttrs said:


> John: In terms of breathing I have a K&N air filter (first major upgrade, worth at least 30hp I reckon)


Not sure if joking...


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

I know that when I had my APR DP installed, I had to take mine back due to exhaust leaks. I am guessing this is your issue


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

JohnLZ7W said:


> Not sure if joking...


Yep just kidding. Wow my aluminum crankshaft comment still haunts me.


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

carl44 said:


> You can run a vagcom log and checkto see if its pulling timing that will tell you if it's detonation . I don't think that's it usually it shows up at high torque in a high gear . Carl
> .


vagcom is enroute via USPS, not sure when it will get here, probably not tomorrow though.


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

To be honest I can't really hear anything strange from the video ?
There's no clutch slip anyway.
Clutch slip is easily tested by flooring it at around 3000 rpm in 4th,5th,6th.
I would imagine,if anything something is not sealed correctly,or you are not accustomed to the sound of the new DP.
I know my car sounds completely different with my custom DP


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

jaybyme said:


> To be honest I can't really hear anything strange from the video ?
> There's no clutch slip anyway.
> Clutch slip is easily tested by flooring it at around 3000 rpm in 4th,5th,6th.
> I would imagine,if anything something is not sealed correctly,or you are not accustomed to the sound of the new DP.
> I know my car sounds completely different with my custom DP


It is very encouraging to see that pretty much everyone agrees that the issue is minor and likely to emanate from the DP. The more I think about it and the more I rewatch the video, I tend to agree.

I will definitely do some more runs this weekend and try to meet up with another TTRS owner who has had the DP for a while and get his thoughts. 

So if the DP just needs an adjustment, I can say that I am pleased with the APR stage 2 beta. AND I am happy to join the club of tunes with no misfires! I hope this keeps up and everyone with APR software is able to have the same results.


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

Rasp sounds normal to me for a car with bigger bore downpipe. Usually when combined with stock back boxes the rasp increases, same thing with 2.0tfsi on stage 2 plus software and if you only change the downpipe and keep stock back box.

MPG increase is that with normal driving or hard driving?


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## Sylvain (Mar 17, 2013)

I have the APR DP too with stock Sport Exhaust, first time my DP was installed by the dealer, i had a leek on one of the secondary pipe (after Y pipe provided by APR).
The sound you ear is just the big boost in the 4" big bore (empty as there is no more primary cat inside).
When APR flash back my car to stock tune (but with CEL, i will not gorget this checksum error and the flash counter increased to 1), this sound disappear because the stock tune is never more than 1bar of pressure.
With APR tune, you have 1.55bar (or now 1.54bar with stage 2 beta probably), so the sound is a quite louder in the DP.
So, for me it's juste harmonic's exhaust/flow sound.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

coasting in neutral like that is not proper driving lol, and besides it uses more fuel than decelerating in gear with your foot off the gas (which uses 0 fuel)

if your clutch was slipping you would see your rpms rising and your speedo staying constant, easy


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## crackkills (Mar 10, 2007)

Will you please post another video with the boost guage/bar on display while you flog it?


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## Dan.S (Jan 3, 2012)

Williamttrs said:


> vagcom is enroute via USPS, not sure when it will get here, probably not tomorrow though.


Thread jack: where bought please!?!?


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## lpriley32 (Jul 28, 2012)

Williamttrs said:


> It is very encouraging to see that pretty much everyone agrees that the issue is minor and likely to emanate from the DP. The more I think about it and the more I rewatch the video, I tend to agree.
> 
> I will definitely do some more runs this weekend and try to meet up with another TTRS owner who has had the DP for a while and get his thoughts.
> 
> So if the DP just needs an adjustment, I can say that I am pleased with the APR stage 2 beta. AND I am happy to join the club of tunes with no misfires! I hope this keeps up and everyone with APR software is able to have the same results.


hit me up bro. I will do what I can to help you diagnose the problem/issue. Plus I would love to feel the new tune! Will be around all weekend...sent you a PM.


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

Williamttrs said:


> vagcom is enroute via USPS, not sure when it will get here, probably not tomorrow though.


William, when you get the VC go to advanced measuring blocks . You can do a max of 12 values and do a log with RPM, misfires 1,2,3,4,5 ,timing retard 1,2,3,4,5 and actual boost N75. those 12 will give you a good snapshot of whats going on. Do a pull from 2-6.8 in 3rd and some 4th if you can.
Post the data. carl


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## OldKenzo (Aug 14, 2012)

Dan.S said:


> Thread jack: where bought please!?!?


I bought mine from: http://store.ross-tech.com/shop/VCuCAN.html

The software download there is free once you buy the cable.


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## linuxrc (May 12, 2013)

Sounds good so far but I was under the impression that APR had something interesting for us, or is that not in this BETA?


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Hard to tell exactly what sound you're talking about in the video, but if it's what I think it is, it's probably just an exhaust leak at most.


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

Poverty said:


> Rasp sounds normal to me for a car with bigger bore downpipe. Usually when combined with stock back boxes the rasp increases, same thing with 2.0tfsi on stage 2 plus software and if you only change the downpipe and keep stock back box.
> 
> MPG increase is that with normal driving or hard driving?


Normal driving. I noticed it on the freeway. The instant MPG pretty much stayed in the mid 30's, even on mild acceleration it stayed in the upper 20's.


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

Dan.S said:


> Thread jack: where bought please!?!?


Ross-Tech as recommended by another forum member.


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

OldKenzo said:


> I bought mine from: http://store.ross-tech.com/shop/VCuCAN.html
> 
> The software download there is free once you buy the cable.


Dan: Just passing this on from what I gathered, the version I purchased was the VCDS License
with HEX-USB+CAN Interface $349. I think this includes the software license and some additional functionality. I am not sure, maybe I over paid by $100, but I figured it was a one time purchase and if sometime down the road I needed a feature it would save me from the :banghead: feeling.


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

Sylvain said:


> With APR tune, you have 1.55bar (or now 1.54bar with stage 2 beta probably), so the sound is a quite louder in the DP.
> So, for me it's juste harmonic's exhaust/flow sound.


 ~ 1.8bar peak boost. Depends on what gear and how you drive it. After doing some intercooler testing we've pulled some more timing based on IATs. 6 back to back pulls from 20-130mph gives you some good heat soak data. Glad to hear its working the same as our stg2 dev car! 

Fuel economy . Glad to hear its significant, far more than I would've 
anticipated. No change to target lambda while cruising. I did change target lamda under boost


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

After you install the app you should go to engine-measured blocks: 
It's easy to measure 3 blocks at a time during a wot in 4th gear from ~2500rpm to 7000 rpm 

Block 115 = rpm and boost (i always use this with all measurements) 
Block 020 & 021 = timing retard 
Block 031, 106, 003, 134, 112 ...


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## trichards69 (Feb 8, 2012)

*sound?*

Can you replicate this sound if the car is parked and just rev the engine? Stick your head under there and have someone rev the car while it's stationary. An exhaust leak is fairly easy to identify. It could be a intercooler hose or some kind of leak there. I would check your boost. Its definitly not the clutch.


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

trichards69 said:


> Can you replicate this sound if the car is parked and just rev the engine? Stick your head under there and have someone rev the car while it's stationary. An exhaust leak is fairly easy to identify. It could be a intercooler hose or some kind of leak there. I would check your boost. Its definitly not the clutch.


 Did some more test runs today. It is not the clutch. Everything runs perfectly except for the sound. The sound does not occur while simply revving or even at high RPM's will cruising or under medium acceleration. It only occurs above 3000 RPMS at WOT. I am 70% certain that the issue is related to the DP.


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

RTErnie said:


> ~ 1.8bar peak boost. Depends on what gear and how you drive it. After doing some intercooler testing we've pulled some more timing based on IATs. 6 back to back pulls from 20-130mph gives you some good heat soak data. Glad to hear its working the same as our stg2 dev car!
> 
> Fuel economy . Glad to hear its significant, far more than I would've
> anticipated. No change to target lambda while cruising. I did change target lamda under boost


 Can you verify if this beta file is the final file (assuming it has no problems from me or the other beta testers)? Is this file the 91 or 93 Octane file? Does this file have the "other goodies" that we mentioned before? As far as I remember the "goodies" were never defined, but it was speculated that they may include NLS, LC and/or multiple Octane maps.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

Williamttrs said:


> Can you verify if this beta file is the final file (assuming it has no problems from me or the other beta testers)? Is this file the 91 or 93 Octane file? Does this file have the "other goodies" that we mentioned before? As far as I remember the "goodies" were never defined, but it was speculated that they may include NLS, LC and/or multiple Octane maps.


 You've got a 93 file. We haven't done the 91 file yet, since it's quite difficult for us to get representative fuel. I think we've ordered some and will probably build the file next week. 

We don't yet know if it will be the final file. That depends on the results of the Beta.. hence the term Beta.  If everything is good with it, it will become the production file. 

I wrote an ME9 NLS and LC for a motorsport application last year, but we're still debating whether we want to release it. They're hell on clutches and cats and the gains aren't much. Either way, it won't be in this release. If we do it, it will come after waterfest. 

I personally wrote the ME9 program switching that we'll use on the TT-RS. But, I haven't had two free days to debug and test it on the TT-RS platform. (2013 S4/Q5/A6/A7/A8 release has taken most of my time lately). If I can squeeze out two days next week, then it will make it into this update. If not, it will also come after waterfest.


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

cipsony said:


> After you install the app you should go to engine-measured blocks:
> It's easy to measure 3 blocks at a time during a wot in 4th gear from ~2500rpm to 7000 rpm
> 
> Block 115 = rpm and boost (i always use this with all measurements)
> ...


 
What should the timing retard numbers be? I dont mean to jack, just never know what the values should be when logging;


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> You've got a 93 file. We haven't done the 91 file yet, since it's quite difficult for us to get representative fuel. I think we've ordered some and will probably build the file next week.
> 
> We don't yet know if it will be the final file. That depends on the results of the Beta.. hence the term Beta.  If everything is good with it, it will become the production file.
> 
> ...


 I can 100% say that the power is amazing. No complaints there. Assuming the sound I am hearing is unrelated to the tune, I will be very pleased with this map. What about multiple fuel map interchangeability. There was mention of a race fuel map and valet map. Is that coming? On race fuel I assume the torque would be too high for the stock clutch?


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

Williamttrs said:


> I can 100% say that the power is amazing. No complaints there. Assuming the sound I am hearing is unrelated to the tune, I will be very pleased with this map. What about multiple fuel map interchangeability. There was mention of a race fuel map and valet map. Is that coming? On race fuel I assume the torque would be too high for the stock clutch?


 Program switching = EMCS = fuel map interchangability. 

We don't just do a single limiter or adder for fuel/timing adjustments. We actually have completely separate tunes for each fuel that you can select via the cruise control. But, I need time that I haven't had to debug it on the TT-RS. Aside from the recent 2013 release and the new Golf R and TT-RS cals, we've got several other products launching between now and waterfest. 

I'll try to get to it next week, but no promises. Worst case, I'll do it after we get back from Jersey. 

Have to wait for Ernie to chime in on the race fuel question. I can say that it did make too much torque when testing it. I'm not sure what he finally settled on.


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

Quisp said:


> What should the timing retard numbers be? I dont mean to jack, just never know what the values should be when logging;


 As close to 0 would be great. ideally is to push the engine to the limit but still have 0 timing retard. 
-3 ~ -4 on a certain rpm range would still be ok.


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

RTErnie said:


> ~ 1.8bar peak boost. Depends on what gear and how you drive it. After doing some intercooler testing we've pulled some more timing based on IATs. 6 back to back pulls from 20-130mph gives you some good heat soak data. Glad to hear its working the same as our stg2 dev car!
> 
> Fuel economy . Glad to hear its significant, far more than I would've
> anticipated. No change to target lambda while cruising. I did change target lamda under boost


 During full wot do you request more than one lambda value? If yes then it's pretty cool 
What interval do you request?


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

Quisp said:


> What should the timing retard numbers be? I dont mean to jack, just never know what the values should be when logging;


 Depends on who you talk to .The ecu pulls timing when it feels knock . Could be low octane fuel or to much timing advance in the tune. My car is stock and i see up to -6 but it varies. I talked to one tuner and he said he sees up to -10+. When I tracked a tuned Lotus Exige S we called it octane scaling,same deal ,the ECU pulling timing. In general the less the better. carl 

G020	F0	G020	F1	G020	F2	G020	F3	G021 

-3	571.01	-6	571.01	-3	571.01	-6	571.15	-6 
-3	571.79	-6	571.79	-3	571.79	-5.3	571.94	-6 
-2.3	572.57	-5.3	572.57	-2.3	572.57	-5.3	572.73	-5.3 
-6	733.5	-5.3	733.5	-5.3	733.5	-5.3	733.63	-2.3 
-6	734.27	-5.3	734.27	-5.3	734.27	-5.3	734.4	-2.3 
0	1008.88	-4.5	1008.88	-3	1008.88	0	1009	0 
-1.5	573.36	-4.5	573.36	-1.5	573.36	-4.5	573.48	-4.5 
-1.5	574.12	-4.5	574.12	-1.5	574.12	-3.8	574.26	-4.5 
-5.3	735.05	-4.5	735.05	-4.5	735.05	-4.5	735.2	-1.5 
-5.3	735.83	-4.5	735.83	-4.5	735.83	-4.5	735.96	-4.5 
0	373.5	-3.8	373.5	-1.5	373.5	-1.5	373.64	0 
-3.8	574.9	-3.8	574.9	-3.8	574.9	-3.8	575.03	-3.8 
-3.8	575.69	-3.8	575.69	-3.8	575.69	-3	575.81	-3 
-4.5	736.62	-3.8	736.62	-3.8	736.62	-3.8	736.74	-4.5 
-4.5	737.38	-3.8	737.38	-3.8	737.38	-3.8	737.51	-4.5 
-2.3	669.74	-3	669.74	-6	669.74	-6	669.86	-6


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

As far as i know -12 is the limit. 
It's better to have a properly optimized map than some that works.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

cipsony said:


> As far as i know -12 is the limit.
> It's better to have a properly optimized map than some that works.


 It is actually very important to have a map which has limited timing pull with ones regular fuel at mild temperatures. That way if you get a bad tank of gas or run in much hotter weather, the ECU can still take enough timing out to keep the engine safe from knock. If your tune i running -8 to -10 on a good day, it won't work too well when you get a tank of gas which isn't your normal, expected "premium grade". Or if the tune is pulling that much timing om a mild day, add in a hot simmer day and things could get interesting very quickly!


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## primetime21 (Feb 14, 2013)

Sean, Is there really too much tq on race gas? Are we talking GT260 100 tune or Shell URT 104? I was hoping I could get a 93 tune, 100, and 104 like I have on my S4... Sorry if I missed it but if that is the case what clutch/flywheel is recomended as I want to run race gas full time and will be bummed if I can't... Also, if/when you release LC will it be user adjustable? I'm not overly concerned about NLS... Finally, on a slighly different note should I stick with stock plugs once tuned or make a change to NGK or another brand? Thoughts and if you recomend different plugs who's should I choose? Thanks Ron


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

William, 

I'm so glad you enjoy the software! It's all about having your cake and eating it too. No artificial limiters to avoid the misfire - we're confident we tracked down the multiple sources, made the appropriate fixes, and are now letting our customers enjoy massive midrange torque like none other.  

Ill need to listen to the video on the computer because I couldn't hear anything on my ipad. The video loaded low res too. I'm betting its just the new downpipe sound as it is quite large! 


Ron, 

Ultimately I believe we will release 100 octane software, (Sunoco gt260 based) and it will be up to the customer to understand it my be too much for the stock clutch. This is true for other platforms too. Once you start maxing out the stock turbo, the stock clutch needs attention. In terms of the clutch upgrade, we are in testing now, so I can't give a recommendation quite yet. 

Eric is also testing a few different plugs at the moment. Ill get you the part numbers for the ones that operate best.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Please work on a 91ACN tune (for stage 1, 2, and 3).


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## primetime21 (Feb 14, 2013)

Arin, How funny I just made a post about my first trip to the strip... lol I'll probably call you this week to start discussing mods... Wanna go one piece at a time and see what it nets me... As always appreciate it! Hope all is well... later Ron


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

primetime21 said:


> Arin, How funny I just made a post about my first trip to the strip... lol I'll probably call you this week to start discussing mods... Wanna go one piece at a time and see what it nets me... As always appreciate it! Hope all is well... later Ron


 I'm excited to see how you did. Pm me the link please.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Marty said:


> Please work on a 91ACN tune (for stage 1, 2, and 3).


 Absolutely! It will all be there for the release.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

so when is the 93 file avail to everyone? i still have the original file, need to fix my speed limiter...  i thought a press thing was about to get written up?


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

I would also like to know when the 93 will finally be available to everyone. I will be honest, no offense to William but I am a little disappointed that those of us that have been dealing with this issue for a long time still need to wait while someone that is new to APR with his TTRS gets first crack at the beta fix.

Especially since I have been asking for quite awhile to test it out and Arin knows how frustrated I am with my car.


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

Should the numbers vary from cylinder to cylinder

 




Ignition - Timing Angle
Timing Retardation - Cylinder 1Timing Retardation - Cylinder 2Timing Retardation - Cylinder 3Timing Retardation - Cylinder 4Timing Retardation - Cylinder 5Accel. Pedal Pos. - Sensor 1 (G79)°BTDC°KW°KW°KW°KW°KW%-19.5000045.90.8-2.3000099.6-0.8-2.3-2.3-2.3-2.3099.6-6-5.3-1.5-1.5-5.3-399.6-6-5.3-1.5-1.5-5.3-399.6-2.3-4.5-1.5-4.5-4.5-385.10.8-4.5-0.8-4.5-4.5-5.399.62.3-3.8-3.8-3.8-4.5-5.399.6120-3.8-3.8-3.8-4.589.8 


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

croman44 said:


> I would also like to know when the 93 will finally be available to everyone. I will be honest, no offense to William but I am a little disappointed that those of us that have been dealing with this issue for a long time still need to wait while someone that is new to APR with his TTRS gets first crack at the beta fix.
> 
> Especially since I have been asking for quite awhile to test it out and Arin knows how frustrated I am with my car.


 I am guessing that I was given an early look because I renegotiated the 30 day guarantee, but I was under the impression that APR was offering the beta to any forum member who wanted the beta. I am by no means the most educated beta tester, but I am happy to participate.


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

croman44 said:


> I would also like to know when the 93 will finally be available to everyone. I will be honest, no offense to William but I am a little disappointed that those of us that have been dealing with this issue for a long time still need to wait while someone that is new to APR with his TTRS gets first crack at the beta fix.
> 
> Especially since I have been asking for quite awhile to test it out and Arin knows how frustrated I am with my car.


 I'm just checking in before going to bed. 100 octane and 91 file are due this week. I have a beta tester in California which will be receiving the 91 file. I'm sorry you're disappointed, I've been doing my best to remedy this issue since I started. I want to get some good beta feedback, before sending it out. I want this cal to stand the test of time. 

For the customer who wanted 104, I'll see about that... I think the marketing boys have a barrel of GT260 plus. 

Sean, 
I recommended the plugs in another thread. IKH24's from Denso. I run them in my car. Not required for this tune, but if you're replacing your plugs... They're the Jam. 

William, 
I suspect the noise you're hearing is your wastegate screaming. YouTube open wastegate dump. I think that's what you're hearing. . It means you're making power. 

Good night!


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## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

Quisp said:


> Should the numbers vary from cylinder to cylinder
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All the logs I took of mine back in 2011 when us UK TT-RS owners were obsessed with logs; IAT; BHP etc shows similar output to what you have there. So, I will say this is normal to see different pulls per cyl.

Interestingly, I was told some time back that in fact a *-3* was ideal and that *0* often meant there is more headroom for more timing...engine can be worked a little harder safely. 

In the end there were so many difference of opinions hence I stopped all that endless logging and worrying about this superb & tough 2.5L engine...since giving up on logging I have continued to enjoy my S2 map with no issues 53k miles and counting. 

I digress and apologise Gentlemen, carry on...


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

UPDATE: I went back to my tuner this afternoon to have the sound checked out that I was hearing above 3000 RPM's at WOT. He put the car up on the lift twice and test drove it twice. He said the fitment was good, but he torqued a few bolts down tighter and adjusted the heat shield. That must have been it, the sound is gone. 

He said he was very impressed with the power of the tune. Apparently a lot of the VW's going from stage 1 to stage 2 only have small gains. This tune he said is much stronger than is typical. He also mentioned that he thought the power was very smooth. 

So now I will give my full endorsement of this tune, at least from a seat of the pant perspective. It is exactly what I was hoping for. I look forward to learning how to use the Vagcom and understanding the internal working of the engine and other systems. 

There are two things that I really want to get to the bottom of. 1. Is this tune REALLY increasing my MPG as much as my display says, I cannot imagine that a tune would increase MPG by 30%. 2. What is considered normal misfires from a Vagcom perspective? My first and only log showed some misfires, but my tuners said these are not the same kind of misfires that would throw a code or cause a problem. He said they were totally normal, but that still begs the question why do some cars have more and others have less? AND why is the measurement in there if it does not matter?


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

http://www.1stcallhosting.com/tech/...action=pdf_show&id=404&filext=pdf&currentdb=0 

Page 12 different opinion


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## Optimus812 (May 5, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Ron,
> 
> Ultimately I believe we will release 100 octane software, (Sunoco gt260 based) and it will be up to the customer to understand it my be too much for the stock clutch. This is true for other platforms too. Once you start maxing out the stock turbo, the stock clutch needs attention. In terms of the clutch upgrade, we are in testing now, so I can't give a recommendation quite yet.
> 
> Eric is also testing a few different plugs at the moment. Ill get you the part numbers for the ones that operate best.


 Do you think it would be a problem using Sunoco SS (Super Sport) 100 unleaded from the he pump in lieu of the gt260? This is what we have in cali available from the pump. 

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

carl44 said:


> http://www.1stcallhosting.com/tech/...action=pdf_show&id=404&filext=pdf&currentdb=0
> 
> Page 12 different opinion


 Just had a chance to look at this. At first glance it is a little greek to me, but I am sure it will make more sense as I get some experience and knowledge on the subject. I am out of town until next week, so I won't be able to address this topic again until then.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Williamttrs said:


> Just had a chance to look at this. At first glance it is a little greek to me, but I am sure it will make more sense as I get some experience and knowledge on the subject. I am out of town until next week, so I won't be able to address this topic again until then.


 The Bosch MED 9 document is actually very interesting... I for one did not know how sophisticated recent ECU's are in terms of trying to detect catalyst efficiency and misfires, just to name two issues which come up in aftermarket tuning a lot. 

I do have some experience with a MegaSquirt 3X on a Miata NB 1.8 VVT engine, so I understanding basic tuning principals, but these OEM ECU's are on a totally different level when it comes to fault detection. 

Catalyst efficiency - The MED 9 ECU uses a number of different strategies to "measure" the oxygen absorption capabilities of your catalytic converters and compares them against models of failed or failing cats, based on the current conditions. This testing includes altering the AFR to rich or lean states. 

Misfire detection - The MED 9 ECU measures the time between ignition events on a per cylinder basis, then compares the variance against max "roughness" values to detect misfires. The ignition timing variance is an indication of misfires as the angular velocity of the engine will vary if a cylinder does not fire properly. A particularly interesting point to me is that the ECU uses wheel speed and flywheel data to filter out road surface conditions (ex: pot holes). It does these measurements/decision within 200 or 1000 engine revolutions and on a continuous basis while driving. 

Lot's more in the linked doc, but that is the cliff notes version...


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Optimus812 said:


> Do you think it would be a problem using Sunoco SS (Super Sport) 100 unleaded from the he pump in lieu of the gt260? This is what we have in cali available from the pump.


 I don't see any issues with it. : )


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## Optimus812 (May 5, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> I don't see any issues with it. : )


 Nice!... And then I thought you'd say "as long as your stock clutch holds"  Fingers crossed you guys can get the program switching working soon.


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

hightechrdn said:


> The Bosch MED 9 document is actually very interesting... I for one did not know how sophisticated recent ECU's are in terms of trying to detect catalyst efficiency and misfires, just to name two issues which come up in aftermarket tuning a lot.
> 
> I do have some experience with a MegaSquirt 3X on a Miata NB 1.8 VVT engine, so I understanding basic tuning principals, but these OEM ECU's are on a totally different level when it comes to fault detection.
> 
> ...


 And the MED 9 is old tech! carl


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## OldKenzo (Aug 14, 2012)

Optimus812 said:


> Nice!... And then I thought you'd say "as long as your stock clutch holds"  Fingers crossed you guys can get the program switching working soon.


 +1 for program switching! I live 20 miles from a 100 octane pump and would gladly fill up there so long as I’m not sh!t out luck when I need to refill out of the area at some crappy 91 pump.


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

Been switching for over a year.


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## canuckttrs (Feb 5, 2012)

With my UM tune I can switch octane AND boost whenever I like!!! :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

canuckttrs said:


> With my UM tune I can switch octane AND boost whenever I like!!! :thumbup:


 Adjustable timing and boost limiters != program switching. 

You can turn down the timing or boost, but you can't go up. I'll get switching out soon for the TT-RS. Our 100 octane program wallops.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

Marty said:


> Please work on a 91ACN tune (for stage 1, 2, and 3).


 Eric already built it and it's being tested now.


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> You can turn down the timing or boost, but you can't go up. I'll get switching out soon for the TT-RS. Our 100 octane program wallops.


 Not true. 
Timing set on 7 = ignition timing 22grd @ 7000 rpm 
Timing set on 9 = ignition timing 28grd @ 7000 rpm 

Both these settings are far from your most agressive 100 map.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

cipsony said:


> Not true.
> Timing set on 7 = ignition timing 22grd @ 7000 rpm
> Timing set on 9 = ignition timing 28grd @ 7000 rpm
> 
> Both these settings are far from your most agressive 100 map.


 1. At what RPM/load? 
2. What granularity do you have with those settings? E.g. what is the smallest increment you can change it by? 

For the record, I can't compare since I have no idea what RPM/Load you're referencing. But, the hottest spot on our 100 octane TT-RS tune is 35.25. 

While we're at it.. what's the maximum boost you can dial in with that thing? As Eric already mentioned, we run 26.1psi (1.8bar) peak boost.


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> 1. At what RPM/load?
> 2. What granularity do you have with those settings? E.g. what is the smallest increment you can change it by?
> 
> For the record, I can't compare since I have no idea what RPM/Load you're referencing. But, the hottest spot on our 100 octane TT-RS tune is 35.25.
> ...


 Of course full load and rpm is written. 
Your 1.8 (probably overboost) pressure is something I wouldn't want on my car from the stock turbo but I think Eric is confusing the BT pressures with those from OEM turbo. 
You can post a log of the 100 map ( ignition timing angle + boost requested and actuall boost) ... If you say that your custom map goes beyond what timing & boost cand be dialed in by other maps. If you alter the figures the end users will find out sooner or later when logging their own cars.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

cipsony said:


> Of course full load and rpm


 28 degrees at full load and RPM would melt the cylinders. Nevermind knock sensors.. that's so far out of spec that it would straight up explode. 

Edit: I'm not saying that UM's tune will explode. I'm saying that your reading of the logs and/or evaluation of where max load/rpm are located is incorrect. Give me a specific load amount and RPM and I'll give you a specific number from our table. 



cipsony said:


> Your 1.8 (probably overboost) pressure is something I wouldn't want on my car from the stock turbo


 The overboost code means that the car exceeded a fixed boost limit. There is no hard "if you pass this boost you explode" line. The only line that exists is knock. If you boost too much and the car knocks, it explodes. That's what knock sensors and closed-loop boost control are for. 

We run 1.8 bar day in, day out safely on the stock turbo. Regulated, knock sensor monitored, etc.. exactly as it should be. 



cipsony said:


> You can post a log of the 100 map ( ignition timing angle + boost requested and actuall boost) ... If you say that your custom map goes beyond what timing & boost cand be dialed in by other maps. If you alter the figures the end users will find out sooner or later when logging their own cars.


 Wow.. here we go with the accusations/threats/trolling again. 

We're all about data. We don't go beyond others on timing, the hard limit there for everybody is knock. That 36 degrees is the highest point in the map, but that occurs at 7500 RPM and very low load. At max load and max RPM, we're much lower than 36. So is everybody else that doesn't want melted pistons. 

Our maps (91,93 and 100) all run more boost. I'm not going to go into how we did it, but I will say that it's 100% controlled. 

We don't log with vag-com, and nobody on vortex has ECU Explorer to open the file, so I can't share those logs. Our Stage 2 car is going back to the customer tomorrow, so we probably won't get a chance to do it on there. I'll put it out to our beta guys to log a few pulls with vag-com. If nothing else, as soon as we release it, I'm sure somebody will log it and post.


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

At 28 grd with pump fuel + wmi or race fuel the cylinders will not melt, it's not a 2.0. 
I don't have a UM map and what map I have has no importance as I don't want to reopen the can again. 

If you do one vagcom log to share with us (5 mins job) it would be great --> this can be helpfull to APR users as I'm sure some would like to know what they buy. 

Once I will get back home (currently out of the country) i can post logs as i've done plenty.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

cipsony said:


> If you do one vagcom log to share with us (5 mins job) it would be great --> this can be helpfull to APR users as I'm sure some would like to know what they buy.


 Not a 5 minute job because the car is full of 93 octane for beta driving. I'm not going to pump the tank dry right now. If we manage to burn off most of the fuel before the customer comes to get it, I'll throw some 100 in there and do the logs. 

Either way, if you just tell me what variables you want to know, I'm happy to tell you what it's going to do.


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## willlangford (Nov 30, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> *You can turn down the timing or boost, but you can't go up.* I'll get switching out soon for the TT-RS. Our 100 octane program wallops.


 Of course you can turn it up. There is a range. Every tuner has a maximum boost value that they wish to set. I can adjust it to anything I like within range.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

willlangford said:


> Of course you can turn it up. There is a range. Every tuner has a maximum boost value that they wish to set. I can adjust it to anything I like within range.


 The map has the maximum value, any adjustment actually turns it down. Especially with timing. You can't just randomly add a value to the entire timing map and expect good results. On the TT-RS, the timing map varies from 5 degrees After TDC to 36 Before TDC. Simply adding across the board is a bad idea. 

That's why nobody would do it that way. Adding a limiter and dialing it down is somewhat reasonable. It won't mess with starting/idling timing (which doesn't need changed), but will reduce higher output values to prevent knock with lesser grade fuel. 

My bottom line point is that switching out the map is a significantly better solution. It's much more granular than a single value.


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

So UM is just like Revo? A sliding scale, a sorta basic way of "switching".


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

Poverty said:


> So UM is just like Revo? A sliding scale, a sorta basic way of "switching".


 I haven't dug through it well enough to say that with 100% certainty. My statements were based on my experience with these things that there really isn't any other way to do it. 

I suspect that's how both of them do it. I don't have any Revo files handy and, I don't really have the desire to document UM's code changes to figure it out. So, it's only my humble opinion.


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

I said 1.8 bar. 2800mbar absolute. Stg2 TTRS. 
You won't achieve that if you row through the gears, but a 4th gear pull from 2k certainly will. 

Sean's point in this... Is that you can only turn up the boost on the competitors tune to the maximum value the "tuner" set it to. We're saying that this is still much less than the boost we run. I don't remember what timing the 100oct map runs at redline, but I don't remember it being near 30 degrees BTDC. 

91 & 100 oct tunes done for stg 2. Beta files are out boosting around. Stg 1 TTRS tunes are up next. 

To the guy who wanted to run 104 oct please PM me. 

Thanks William, glad you like it.


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

RTErnie said:


> I said 1.8 bar. 2800mbar absolute. Stg2 TTRS.
> You won't achieve that if you row through the gears, but a 4th gear pull from 2k certainly will.
> 
> Sean's point in this... Is that you can only turn up the boost on the competitors tune to the maximum value the "tuner" set it to. We're saying that this is still much less than the boost we run. I don't remember what timing the 100oct map runs at redline, but I don't remember it being near 30 degrees BTDC.
> ...


 Correct me if i'm wrong: 
Pulls in higher gears from low rpms are bad for the engine and transmission/clutch and these should be avoided especially by tuned cars. High boost at low rpms amplify this effect. 
If you accelerate hard from low rpm if the boost required is higher the engine will get hotter and you will loose up top where it really matters. 
I would prefer a map with a lower boost till 4000-4500 rpm but with more constant delivery in the higher rpm.


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

cipsony said:


> Correct me if i'm wrong:
> Pulls in higher gears from low rpms are bad for the engine and transmission/clutch and these should be avoided especially by tuned cars. High boost at low rpms amplify this effect.
> If you accelerate hard from low rpm if the boost required is higher the engine will get hotter and you will loose up top where it really matters.
> I would prefer a map with a lower boost till 4000-4500 rpm but with more constant delivery in the higher rpm.


 I am no expert, but it sounds like you are making an argument for increasing turbo lag


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

why change the map,just use the gears and throttle if you don't want to stress the clutch with loads of torque low down. 
Not sure what my cars peak boost is,but according to scangauge it just sits at 1.5 bar till the high 5000 rpms


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

i never floor it below 3k if i do its very very rare


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## LynxFX (May 17, 2012)

I'm getting the new 91 Octane beta flashed on Wednesday. I've been living with the stage 2 LO file for quite a while now so I'll be most interested in seeing how much of a power improvement there is.


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## gengo (May 13, 2013)

My understanding is that the combination of high-torque in higher-gears at low-rpm stresses the engine internals. The analogy is your connecting rods will be like how your legs feel if you started pedaling a 10-speed in high-gear from a dead-stop at maximum acceleration. 

I agree that a map with a smooth boost increase (limiting a massive torque spike low in the RPM range rather than maximizing it) seems more prudent for those who prefer longevity. At least this was the general consensus from the Evo world, which I assume translates to the TTRS. 




cipsony said:


> Correct me if i'm wrong:
> Pulls in higher gears from low rpms are bad for the engine and transmission/clutch and these should be avoided especially by tuned cars. High boost at low rpms amplify this effect.
> If you accelerate hard from low rpm if the boost required is higher the engine will get hotter and you will loose up top where it really matters.
> I would prefer a map with a lower boost till 4000-4500 rpm but with more constant delivery in the higher rpm.


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## bzflag (Apr 27, 2003)

gengo said:


> I agree that a map with a smooth boost increase (limiting a massive torque spike low in the RPM range rather than maximizing it) seems more prudent for those who prefer longevity. At least this was the general consensus from the Evo world, which I assume translates to the TTRS.


 This is done to preserve the connecting rods. Torque kills rods, not HP, so limiting torque down low can be beneficial if you're worried about them. This is the reason you see guys putting windows in their block with stock-hybrid and other small frame turbos even thought they aren't making a ton of hp, they spool very quickly and make a ton of torque early. 

I'm unaware of any TTRS that is having rod issues, so there's no reason to limit the torque. The engine can take it and the tuners can concentrate on getting the broadest powerband possible without worry.


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## rp5311 (Jun 28, 2012)

Is the Beta file available for the rest of us? or just a selected few.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

rp5311 said:


> Is the Beta file available for the rest of us? or just a selected few.


 It'll be released in a few days.


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## rp5311 (Jun 28, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> It'll be released in a few days.


 Thats Great thanks for the quick reply.


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## lpriley32 (Jul 28, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> It'll be released in a few days.


 That is better than "two weeks"!


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

lpriley32 said:


> That is better than "two weeks"!


 Ah you might think so, but two weeks is very specific. It is between 10 and 14 days, depending how you count a week. I am unaware of any definition of "a few days."


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

The world was created in a few days


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## LynxFX (May 17, 2012)

cipsony said:


> The world was created in a few days


Give or take...


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

cipsony said:


> The world was created in a few days


What's a few billon years between friends?


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## LynxFX (May 17, 2012)

Well I just got the 91 octane Stage 2 Beta applied.

I've been running the Stage 2 LO (Low Output) file for about 3000 miles. I haven't had any problems with it, but powerwise, it didn't feel any different than Stage 1. It just happened to sound better thanks to the large downpipe and be a bit smoother.

I've only driven for about 30 minutes and I can already tell there is a difference. Before I felt that the turbo would spool, pause, then spool again. Not a misfire or anything, just if you watched the gauge it would bounce and power would come in surges at times. Now I see the turbo gauge fill up almost immediately in 2nd, 3rd and 4th. I haven't been able to do any pulls in 5th. Pulling from 4th just the few times I did it feels much stronger and quite smooth in delivery. Press the pedal and you are going with a steady acceleration. 

I hope to get out this weekend to a couple areas where I can really open it up and put it to the test. So far though I think we may finally have a solid stage 2 tune from APR. :thumbup:


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

do a couple of roughly timed runs using the on board timer.
4th gear 60-100 mph etc, should show what sort torque the new map has.
through the gears 50-100,120 mph etc (if possible)


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## YYC Dubber (Jun 23, 2011)

jaybyme said:


> do a couple of roughly timed runs using the on board timer.
> 4th gear 60-100 mph etc, should show what sort torque the new map has.
> through the gears 50-100,120 mph etc (if possible)


+1 :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## LynxFX (May 17, 2012)

jaybyme said:


> do a couple of roughly timed runs using the on board timer.
> 4th gear 60-100 mph etc, should show what sort torque the new map has.
> through the gears 50-100,120 mph etc (if possible)


I could but the times will all be irrelevant since I didn't time them stock or with the old tune.


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## YYC Dubber (Jun 23, 2011)

as most people realize, the Sport Button doesnt directly control the exhaust flapper on the RS.... Is there any way APR could program the switch to be a truly On/Off solution comparable to the AWE Switchpath?

heres a detailed thread for those looking for more info

http://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=237393


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

LynxFX said:


> I could but the times will all be irrelevant since I didn't time them stock or with the old tune.


irrelevant to compare your maps,but not to compare against other tuned cars.
Not sure if I could use the times to compare against mine,as I think the gearing is different on the Stronic.


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## lpriley32 (Jul 28, 2012)

jaybyme said:


> irrelevant to compare your maps,but not to compare against other tuned cars.
> Not sure if I could use the times to compare against mine,as I think the gearing is different on the Stronic.


or for someone with a stock car to go out and time some runs and compare their stock numbers to the new tune numbers.


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

But it's wayyyyyyy too inaccurate


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## LynxFX (May 17, 2012)

As Poverty said, it is just way too inaccurate and way too many variables to get anything of benefit from. Any difference between one car and another will be well within the margin of error as I expect them to be pretty close. If I get a moment I'll try to post some times but no promises.

However, I'm still in talks with UM and APR to do a same day, stage 2 dyno comparison. We are still working on the logistics and terms that both parties can agree on. Hopefully this will happen sometime in July and will be a comparison of their latest 91 octane maps.


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## linuxrc (May 12, 2013)

How's the gas mileage on it? Notice any improvement?


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## LynxFX (May 17, 2012)

Too soon to say, plus I'm not exactly babying it right now.  Gauge is showing roughly the same as before.


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

Poverty said:


> But it's wayyyyyyy too inaccurate


completely disagree.
Maybe for official forum times comparing different companies and cars,but not for personal use comparing new maps.
If you do half a dozen timed runs on a stretch of road you can take a rough average.
I bet any money the times won't me more than a tenth out at the end of the day, if you do them sensibly and allow for speedo correction.
We are not talking about comparing different company maps and cars here. We are talking about getting a rough idea,that a new map you have paid for, actually gives substantial performance gains.


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

jaybyme said:


> completely disagree.
> Maybe for official forum times comparing different companies and cars,but not for personal use comparing new maps.
> If you do half a dozen timed runs on a stretch of road you can take a rough average.
> I bet any money the times won't me more than a tenth out at the end of the day, if you do them sensibly and allow for speedo correction.
> We are not talking about comparing different company maps and cars here. We are talking about getting a rough idea,that a new map you have paid for, actually gives substantial performance gains.


between stock and mapped perhaphs, but otherwise its like trying to hold a stopwatch, whilst steering, and watching the speedo all at once.


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

yeah you need a quiet straight bit of road,plus it helps having the Stronic,but even in the manual 4th gear runs should be possible.
The gains will be in seconds,not in tenths, if the tuning is good,so pretty easy to see.
When I do 100- 165 km/h,it averages to 4 secs or just below,but I would be surprised if the Pbox would show much difference than 4 secs.


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## LynxFX (May 17, 2012)

I'll add that the high idle on cold start is back. Mine used to idle at 900rpm. Now it is at ~1400rpm. After about 30-45 seconds it calms back down to 900.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

LynxFX said:


> I'll add that the high idle on cold start is back. Mine used to idle at 900rpm. Now it is at ~1400rpm. After about 30-45 seconds it calms back down to 900.


Yep. We had to put that back in. It's not a bad thing though, especially in cold climates.


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## LynxFX (May 17, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Yep. We had to put that back in. It's not a bad thing though, especially in cold climates.


 Yeah I wasn't mentioning it as a negative. I just remembered a few members hoping that it would be back with the update.


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

So is the misfire problem fixed with the APR tunes? carl


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## LynxFX (May 17, 2012)

carl44 said:


> So is the misfire problem fixed with the APR tunes? carl


 It appears that way with the beta I and others have been running. Just a minor tweak that isn't related to any misfires and I'll be 100% satisfied. :thumbup:

I'm sure those from APR will let everyone know when the updated tune will be available to all.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

what is the tweak mr suspense


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## southpole12 (Mar 29, 2012)

Does anyone know when the tune will be released?


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

southpole12 said:


> Does anyone know when the tune will be released?


I believe the file we burned onto our cars today will be the final versions for 3 and 2+. We're going to strip the car down to stock hardware tomorrow and validate the new Stage 1 file.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> I believe the file we burned onto our cars today will be the final versions for 3 and 2+. We're going to strip the car down to stock hardware tomorrow and validate the new Stage 1 file.


Ooo let's hear some more details about that Stage 3 file!


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## 311-in-337 (Feb 19, 2003)

Marty said:


> Ooo let's hear some more details about that Stage 3 file!



...and about the intercooler, and "maybe" intake.


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## southpole12 (Mar 29, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> I believe the file we burned onto our cars today will be the final versions for 3 and 2+. We're going to strip the car down to stock hardware tomorrow and validate the new Stage 1 file.


So I will be able to get my stage 2 lo file upgraded to the new stage 2 like when? This weekend?


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## RSjonny (Jun 27, 2013)

Southpole12:

I spoke with my local APR Dealer today and they confirmed with the APR tech line, that Friday 6/28 the "Revised/Updated" stage 2 file will be available for us.

:thumbup:


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

Can anyone from APR confirm this?


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## [email protected] (Dec 27, 2012)

RSjonny said:


> Southpole12:
> 
> I spoke with my local APR Dealer today and they confirmed with the APR tech line, that Friday 6/28 the "Revised/Updated" stage 2 file will be available for us.
> 
> :thumbup:


I would be the person they spoke to if they called in for tech, I didn't tell anybody that. I do not know the ETA.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

I just drove the Stage 1. Very nice. 

For the record, we don't ever release anything on a Friday. If there were to be an issue with it, we wouldn't know until Monday.

Official APR releases will always be on a Monday, Tuesday or Humpday.


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> I just drove the Stage 1. Very nice.
> 
> For the record, we don't ever release anything on a Friday. If there were to be an issue with it, we wouldn't know until Monday.
> 
> Official APR releases will always be on a Monday, Tuesday or Humpday.


What release? The release was last year. In the past "~ half year" the story moves around a fix to a map. 
Hilarious the whole story though


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## canuckttrs (Feb 5, 2012)

southpole12 said:


> So I will be able to get my stage 2 lo file upgraded to the new stage 2 like when? This weekend?


stage 3 will probably be available before the stage2 file.


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

I have my doubts that stage 3 will ever be officially released. 
With loba you get 500+ hp and the turbo is homologated by Audi.

In order to get a viable stage 3 (considering the price of all the parts which are many) it would need to make at least 600 hp on pump fuel only. Safely producing this figure ... it is not, so therefore i think it will be just a project with the option for some to buy the parts on their own responsibility (without any guarantee).

For a safe 600 you will need: turbo, exhaust manifold, down-pipe, turbo elbow, intake, intercooler, clutch, internals, new map, ...

... time will tell if I'm wrong or not but I don't see a 600 figure on stock internals and I don't see myself (or any sane person) buying a kit that is producing 550hp or something like this.


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## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

cipsony said:


> I have my doubts that stage 3 will ever be officially released.
> With loba you get 500+ hp and the turbo is homologated by Audi.
> 
> In order to get a viable stage 3 (considering the price of all the parts which are many) it would need to make at least 600 hp on pump fuel only. Safely producing this figure ... it is not, so therefore i think it will be just a project with the option for some to buy the parts on their own responsibility (without any guarantee).
> ...



If you really believe that after all this R&D and testing, amounting to god knows how much money..that it wont' be released, you are in even more help than we gathered from your posts.

Put down the laptop, make the call, get the help you need.


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## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

As one of most critical of all the problems with the old file, and wow, there were many...

I can safely say the new file is fantastic and will be worth the wait.


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## lpriley32 (Jul 28, 2012)

joneze93tsi said:


> As one of most critical of all the problems with the old file, and wow, there were many...
> 
> I can safely say the new file is fantastic and will be worth the wait.


are you considering switching back?


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## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

lpriley32 said:


> are you considering switching back?


I've been trying the beta file with very positive results....


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## LynxFX (May 17, 2012)

joneze93tsi said:


> I've been trying the beta file with very positive results....


Same here. It is such an improvement over the stage 2 LO file. Now the power matches the sound put out by the downpipe.


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## lpriley32 (Jul 28, 2012)

great to hear. saving for a wedding in January so new toys are off limits until then but assuming all positive feedback it won't be long after that that I pull the trigger. Have already had the DP installed for a while now.


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## RSjonny (Jun 27, 2013)

lpriley32 said:


> great to hear. saving for a wedding in January so new toys are off limits until then but assuming all positive feedback it won't be long after that that I pull the trigger. Have already had the DP installed for a while now.


Hopefully the updated "fixed" file will be released by then? On a Monday or Tuesday? 






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

cipsony said:


> I have my doubts that stage 3 will ever be officially released.
> With loba you get 500+ hp and the turbo is homologated by Audi.
> 
> In order to get a viable stage 3 (considering the price of all the parts which are many) it would need to make at least 600 hp on pump fuel only. Safely producing this figure ... it is not, so therefore i think it will be just a project with the option for some to buy the parts on their own responsibility (without any guarantee).
> ...



This kit could get homologated by audi too


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

About 2 tanks of gas with the new file and no real problems. I did get a reflash this past Monday because of a minor issue that was corrected (not a misfire). As far as I can tell the tune is as good as it gets. It is more powerful in every way. The power is smooth and linear. Gas milage seems to be very good, but I have yet to verify the readings on my gauge. Absolutely ZERO hiccups or whatever you want to call it. 

On the Beta side of things APR has been great to work with. Very responsive.


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

joneze93tsi said:


> I've been trying the beta file with very positive results....


I have always thought your posts were very fair and level headed. How does the new APR tune compare to UM's?


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## canuckttrs (Feb 5, 2012)

Williamttrs said:


> About 2 tanks of gas with the new file and no real problems. I did get a reflash this past Monday because of a minor issue that was corrected (not a misfire). As far as I can tell the tune is as good as it gets. It is more powerful in every way. The power is smooth and linear. Gas milage seems to be very good, but I have yet to verify the readings on my gauge. Absolutely ZERO hiccups or whatever you want to call it.
> 
> On the Beta side of things APR has been great to work with. Very responsive.


not going to do the comparo after all?


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

canuckttrs said:


> not going to do the comparo after all?


I am still open to it, but last I heard from UM was they were going to check with one of their guys in Houston. I have not heard back. That was about 2 weeks ago. I thought someone else might be doing it and that was why I did not hear anything else.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

cipsony said:


> I have my doubts that stage 3 will ever be officially released.
> With loba you get 500+ hp and the turbo is homologated by Audi.
> 
> In order to get a viable stage 3 (considering the price of all the parts which are many) it would need to make at least 600 hp on pump fuel only. Safely producing this figure ... it is not, so therefore i think it will be just a project with the option for some to buy the parts on their own responsibility (without any guarantee).
> ...



1. It requires even more parts than that.
2. It makes a lot of power. I'm not sure if you're talking crank or wheel.. but, suffice it to say.. it's VERY impressive and well worth the money. Our stage 3 kit pushes the Tt-RS into supercar territory.
3. It's all done, we're building the kits for inventory now. As soon as we have enough of them assembled, it will release.


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## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

Williamttrs said:


> I have always thought your posts were very fair and level headed. How does the new APR tune compare to UM's?


Thanks William.

The APR tune is hard to fault at this point. Insane early torque, without any hiccups any longer.
Initial tip-in is not as sensitive and jumpy, I'm still adjusting to the low end torque this thing produces now. Up top, it's faster than ever, probably due to not worrying about running out of fuel running 10.7 AFR:laugh:. I've been beating the crap out of it and honestly love it and have not had any side effects so far. Can't wait for the next Autocross to see how I drive with it during a race.


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

joneze93tsi said:


> Thanks William.
> 
> The APR tune is hard to fault at this point. Insane early torque, without any hiccups any longer.
> Initial tip-in is not as sensitive and jumpy, I'm still adjusting to the low end torque this thing produces now. Up top, it's faster than ever, probably due to not worrying about running out of fuel running 10.7 AFR:laugh:. I've been beating the crap out of it and honestly love it and have not had any side effects so far. Can't wait for the next Autocross to see how I drive with it during a race.


That is good to know that you have been beating on it. I would say that I drive pretty hard, but I have been out of town a lot and not with my car. My feel for the car is different than when I do my 2400 mile trips in a week. I did about 5K in one month and I have done only a few hundred miles in the past month. It is hard to tell if my excitement when I get in my car is because I am not driving as much lately or is it because hitting that go button is simply amazing. 

So any comparative thoughts on UM tune vs APR tune. I am interested in constructive comments, not to start another war. My prediction was that the UM tune and APR tune would ultimately turn out to be pretty close, with an edge for APR. The reason I expected the edge to be in APR's favor is because they had two cracks at the tune and they had a lot of reputation riding on fixing the problems.


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## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

Williamttrs said:


> That is good to know that you have been beating on it. I would say that I drive pretty hard, but I have been out of town a lot and not with my car. My feel for the car is different than when I do my 2400 mile trips in a week. I did about 5K in one month and I have done only a few hundred miles in the past month. It is hard to tell if my excitement when I get in my car is because I am not driving as much lately or is it because hitting that go button is simply amazing.
> 
> So any comparative thoughts on UM tune vs APR tune. I am interested in constructive comments, not to start another war. My prediction was that the UM tune and APR tune would ultimately turn out to be pretty close, with an edge for APR. The reason I expected the edge to be in APR's favor is because they had two cracks at the tune and they had a lot of reputation riding on fixing the problems.


In all honesty, they are still 2 very different tunes in regards to power delivery.
UM is like a turbine engine that builds over time, APR's is a solid fuel rocket that gets ignited and you just hold on. I'm sure there will be people that will prefer one style to the other.

Without back to back dyno's nobody can definitively say which makes more peak power or torque, which in of itself, isn't entirely useful in determining what you want. I prefer a broad usable power band over peak figures any day.


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

joneze93tsi said:


> In all honesty, they are still 2 very different tunes in regards to power delivery.
> UM is like a turbine engine that builds over time, APR's is a solid fuel rocket that gets ignited and you just hold on. I'm sure there will be people that will prefer one style to the other.
> 
> Without back to back dyno's nobody can definitively say which makes more peak power or torque, which in of itself, isn't entirely useful in determining what you want. I prefer a broad usable power band over peak figures any day.


Yep I like more total power as opposed to a narrow burst. What's that concept? Something about how much space on the dyno chart that is under the line? 

So now we have two good tunes that serve a somewhat different audience. Sounds like a good thing to me and not worth arguing over, but does make for an interesting "adult" discussion.


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## LynxFX (May 17, 2012)

Williamttrs said:


> I am still open to it, but last I heard from UM was they were going to check with one of their guys in Houston. I have not heard back. That was about 2 weeks ago. I thought someone else might be doing it and that was why I did not hear anything else.


I was in talks with them to do a back to back dyno run in California. Both groups seem to be into it but so far they haven't been able to come to an agreement on terms or conditions. A lot of trust issues between the two. I was growing impatient so decided to just get the beta file and test that out instead. I'm still open to lending my car for the shootout, APR and UM just need to come to a conclusion on the logistics. Maybe in July?


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## canuckttrs (Feb 5, 2012)

I think it's time UM came out with an update of their own. Perhaps a Stage 2+?


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

is APR stage 1 fixed also? carl


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

I'm going to be at the Glen July 15-16 with many other TTRS's in various states of tune. We may be able to get some relative real world performance comparos done. I'm running GIAC stage 2. Who else is going and what tune do you have?


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## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

Black BeauTTy said:


> I'm going to be at the Glen July 15-16 with many other TTRS's in various states of tune. We may be able to get some relative real world performance comparos done. I'm running GIAC stage 2. Who else is going and what tune do you have?


Too far, wish I could!


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## smack_ttrs (Mar 24, 2013)

testing the new stage 2 version. coming from stock i have to say it's a very healthy jump in power. also not feeling any misfires or anything strange.

once the guys get back from pikes peak i'll throw the car back on the dyno to see what kind of increase we are seeing over stock and log a few pulls to make sure we don't see anything odd. 

sure wish we had better gas in california. planning on trying out the 100 map as well when i have a chance.

my plan was just to buy their off the shelf tune, but i looked at the um site and unfortunately i didn't see anything about a money back guarantee, so as much as i like all of you i don't think i want to donate that much money in the quest for knowledge.


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

smack_ttrs said:


> testing the new stage 2 version. coming from stock i have to say it's a very healthy jump in power. also not feeling any misfires or anything strange.
> 
> once the guys get back from pikes peak i'll throw the car back on the dyno to see what kind of increase we are seeing over stock and log a few pulls to make sure we don't see anything odd.
> 
> ...


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

From stock, stage 2 is a huge jump. Grin inducing for sure. Can't wait to get mine back on the track to let it loose.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

carl44 said:


> is APR stage 1 fixed also? carl


this, i'm waiting on updated stage1 93


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

tdi-bart said:


> this, i'm waiting on updated stage1 93


We've been testing the new stage 1 for the past week. Looks good too.


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## smack_ttrs (Mar 24, 2013)

carl44 said:


> smack_ttrs said:
> 
> 
> > testing the new stage 2 version. coming from stock i have to say it's a very healthy jump in power. also not feeling any misfires or anything strange.
> ...


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

smack_ttrs said:


> carl44 said:
> 
> 
> > i didn't have the logger setup at that point.
> ...


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## smack_ttrs (Mar 24, 2013)

cipsony said:


> smack_ttrs said:
> 
> 
> > It would be great if you could take the car to the same dyno. If the temp is around 20 grd C is even better.
> ...


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

Great.

The dyno is adjusting the figures according to ambiental temp. but it's best to be as close to 20 grd to reduce the "correcting factor".


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## RSjonny (Jun 27, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> I would be the person they spoke to if they called in for tech, I didn't tell anybody that. I do not know the ETA.












Bronson & Sean,

I just received this e-mail from my authorized APR dealer today. As Sean stated earlier, releases are announced on Mondays. Because today is Monday would this e-mail I just received be accurate?

Thank you.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

I am pretty sure that link is to the old page, unless the HP and Torque are the same from the old tune and the new tune.


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## RSjonny (Jun 27, 2013)

Williamttrs said:


> I am pretty sure that link is to the old page, unless the HP and Torque are the same from the old tune and the new tune.


I'm referencing to the Stage 2 update being available to the general public.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

I can tell you that I was told it would probably be released today. My guess is that it will be announced tomorrow


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

RSjonny said:


> I'm referencing to the Stage 2 update being available to the general public.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Gotcha. I thought you were also referencing the link, which hopefully they will have a new graph out. It will be cool to compare.


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

I'm finishing up the calibrations today. I'll be wrapping the 91, 93, and 100 tunes for S1 and S2 up today. 7100 limiter for stg 1 & 2. We'll release the information to the Dealers first when they're ready. 

Did some tuning on our stage 3 car recently.  teasers coming.


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## primetime21 (Feb 14, 2013)

Will map switching be part of this release? Sorry if I missed it somewhere in the thread...


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

RTErnie said:


> I'm finishing up the calibrations today. I'll be wrapping the 91, 93, and 100 tunes for S1 and S2 up today. 7100 limiter for stg 1 & 2. We'll release the information to the Dealers first when they're ready.
> 
> Did some tuning on our stage 3 car recently.  teasers coming.


If you can, please let us know when the dealers have access to it. Some of us are a good distance away and I know that I do not want to drive all that way to find out its not showing up on their list.

Thanks, its appreciated


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## RSjonny (Jun 27, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> I just drove the Stage 1. Very nice.
> 
> For the record, we don't ever release anything on a Friday. If there were to be an issue with it, we wouldn't know until Monday.
> 
> Official APR releases will always be on a Monday, Tuesday or Humpday.


Today is Tuesday, lets cross our fingers and see.......... 👀


2013 Audi TT RS Ibis White
APR Stage 1



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

Williamttrs said:


> I am pretty sure that link is to the old page, unless the HP and Torque are the same from the old tune and the new tune.


It is to the old one.

Well make an announcement here as soon as we put it out to dealers. This morning we decided to do a couple more little things. So, just a little longer.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

euro dealers have can update us-spec cars? plz don't forget that speed limiter check bit....


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

tdi-bart said:


> euro dealers have can update us-spec cars? plz don't forget that speed limiter check bit....


We're testing euro too. They should all come out about the same time.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

no i mean if you have american bought ttrs in europe, will the european dealer be able to update it? since us spec ecu...


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## twin__turbo (Apr 12, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> We've been testing the new stage 1 for the past week. Looks good too.


Any power increases for the revised Stage 1? Thanks in advance.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

tdi-bart said:


> no i mean if you have american bought ttrs in europe, will the european dealer be able to update it? since us spec ecu...


Yes. This happens quite often actually. US Military guys take their cars with them to Europe and end up wanting a flash while there.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

twin__turbo said:


> Any power increases for the revised Stage 1? Thanks in advance.


Yes, very nice increases.


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Yes. This happens quite often actually. US Military guys take their cars with them to Europe and end up wanting a flash while there.


Are there any differences between the US spec ECU and the European ?
I haven't even seen real proof over here that there is even a difference between the basic 340 ps car and the 360 ps plus version.
All cars seem to produce the same sort of power.
In fact the fastest 0-100 km/h time in a magazine in Germany, was set by one of the first 340 ps stronics, at 3.9 secs


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

american ecus have imperial screws, european have metric haha


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

tdi-bart said:


> american ecus have imperial screws, european have metric haha


They all have Torx.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

i know lol


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

soooooooo new 93 stg1 file must be out next 1-2 days??????


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## RSjonny (Jun 27, 2013)

tdi-bart said:


> soooooooo new 93 stg1 file must be out next 1-2 days??????



Tdi-Bart:
Your kinda looking blue over there holding your breath. We all passed out already holding ours. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

I have already decided that if it does not come out this week to fix my TTRS then I am done with APR and I will take my other car (Q5) to GIAC. I am tired of this "few more days crap". It should not take 6 months to fix something this severe.

What really bothers me is that I truly believe that if UM did not come out with their tune, that APR would have never been motivated to fix theirs. For that I owe UM a big thank you.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

croman44 said:


> I have already decided that if it does not come out this week to fix my TTRS then I am done with APR and I will take my other car (Q5) to GIAC. I am tired of this "few more days crap". It should not take 6 months to fix something this severe.
> 
> What really bothers me is that I truly believe that if UM did not come out with their tune, that APR would have never been motivated to fix theirs. For that I owe UM a big thank you.


I wouldn't punish APR for sharing internal development progress. Folks twist their arm and beg for a hint at a release date, and then berate them for it when the date passes. Yes, companies shouldn't advertise a release date and then miss it. The best solution for this is typically to not advertise any date, unless it is firm, and then stick to it. But then what would we all talk about on here? 

So when is that Stage 3 release date again??


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Marty said:


> I wouldn't punish APR for sharing internal development progress. Folks twist their arm and beg for a hint at a release date, and then berate them for it when the date passes. Yes, companies shouldn't advertise a release date and then miss it. The best solution for this is typically to not advertise any date, unless it is firm, and then stick to it. But then what would we all talk about on here?
> 
> So when is that Stage 3 release date again??


They are habitually bad at hitting their schedules, hence the long standing APR 2 weeks joke.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

JohnLZ7W said:


> They are habitually bad at hitting their schedules, hence the long standing APR 2 weeks joke.


Understood, though I don't recall seeing any official APR commitments to a specific release schedule (just tidbits leaked by the engineering folks).


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Back in mid June, in this thread I think they said it'd be a couple more days


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## canuckttrs (Feb 5, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> It'll be released in a few days.


June 18 to be exact. 

Hoping to see the UM Stage2 update as well shortly but haven't heard of an eta just yet.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

canuckttrs said:


> June 18 to be exact.
> 
> Hoping to see the UM Stage2 update as well shortly but haven't heard of an eta just yet.


We decided to do a few more things. We're almost there guys.


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> We decided to do a few more things. We're almost there guys.


Doesn't this thread go back to November of last year? I would like to get a Tune for my RS but there seems to be a lot of drama to get one that runs properly, 9 months! Maybe I'm wrong but this thread I thought was a continuation of the other misfire thread. Are these two separate issues or a Continuation of the same. Carl


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> We decided to do a few more things. We're almost there guys.


What was that "big surprise" that you guys were talking about back when you started working on this revised tune? I assumed it was program switching, but I don't recall ever seeing a conclusion.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

hey if stg1 is 450hp i can wait 1 more month no problem haha


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

As of now, this is available from all APR dealers. The official release with dyno graphs, etc will be out today or tomorrow.

But, you can go get the software now.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> As of now, this is available from all APR dealers. The official release with dyno graphs, etc will be out today or tomorrow.
> 
> But, you can go get the software now.


so r u saying the new super duper stg1 93 is out? no misfires? no speed limiter?  (i only had the speed limiter problem)


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

tdi-bart said:


> so r u saying the new super duper stg1 93 is out? no misfires? no speed limiter?  (i only had the speed limiter problem)


Yep. It's out. Marketing isn't done with the writeups/graphs yet, but the dealers can flash it.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

are there version numbers the dealers see, cause i have a very long drive to my dealer... so i rather do it right the first time

if i can do the update myself using vcds cable that would be amazing, can you send me the .exe


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

tdi-bart said:


> are there version numbers the dealers see, cause i have a very long drive to my dealer... so i rather do it right the first time
> 
> if i can do the update myself using vcds cable that would be amazing, can you send me the .exe


Version 2.0, but it's the only thing available now for TT-RS boxcodes. They don't have a choice but to flash the new stuff.

Nope, no VCDS cable. There is no EXE to give you.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

Marty said:


> So when is that Stage 3 release date again??


Waterfest 2013. It'll blow your ****ing mind.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Product Page*
APR Audi TT RS and RS3 2.5 TFSI ECU Upgrade

APR’s Engineering Teams have finished final testing of new version 2.0 Stage I and Stage II 2.5 TFSI ECU Calibrations for the Audi TT RS and RS3. The new ECU Upgrade improves upon low to mid range torque on top of what was previously a tremendous upgrade over stock. Amidst addressing all previous concerns, additional motorsport features were added to further enhance your driving experience. All updates are now available at APR dealers around the globe and are offered as a FREE update for all APR ECU Upgrade customers!

*Comparison Graph - Same Day - +90F Ambient Dyno Temps - WHP (Front Hubs Only)*










APR’s Engineers found the 2.5 TFSI ECU would suffer a temporary hiccup on some vehicles while producing asphalt sheading levels of torque commonly associated with an ECU upgrade to an engine of this caliber. Other calibrations producing less midrange boost pressure, and ultimately less torque, were less susceptible to replicating the hiccup. However, since limiting boost pressure only masks the issue, these other lower output calibrations were not completely immune to the issues. 

After countless hours of research and development, APR’s pleased to provide the first and only true fix to the 2.5 TFSI “misfire” issue based on our own competitive analysis. APR’s Engineers were able to identify several OEM ECU calculation errors associated with producing high levels of torque. By allowing the ECU to properly read and monitor engine operating parameters, the hiccups, or “misfires”, were completely eliminated. This allowed APR’s Calibration Experts to further increase mid range torque beyond what was previously the highest available option on the market. Expect your TT RS or RS3 to pull you back in your seat like nothing you’ve felt before!

APR’s Calibration and Software Experts focused heavily upon increasing the overall drivability and performance of the 2.5 TFSI well beyond dyno numbers alone. Through implementation of the new patent pending APR Boost Control Strategy shared with our upcoming Stage III Turbocharger System, the ECU is now able to properly control boost pressure levels much higher than possible with the factory code alone. Specific calibration changes were made to enhance turbocharger spool rates, reducing lag to give the drive a more direct and connected feel to the accelerator pedal. Overall volumetric efficiency was enhanced through calibration changes resulting in more ignition advance towards redline, cooler exhaust gases, increased power and torque, and improved fuel economy depending on driving habits. 

To further enhance your driving experience, APR outfitted the 2.5 TFSI with a Quattro GMBH inspired Motorsport Revlimiter as found on all other R and RS models currently being produced. Rather than softly slowing down acceleration several hundred RPM before the rev limiter, the 2.5 TFSI will now freely rev up to the new, clearly identifiable redline at 7,100 RPM and may make all the difference in a competitive head to head sprint on the track!

All checksum routines are fully in place and implemented properly and as before, the factory speed limiter is fully removed. 

To find a local APR dealer, please use our dealer locater tool. 
http://www.goapr.com/dealer/

Go APR


----------



## LynxFX (May 17, 2012)

Good writeup Arin and welcome back. I'm surprised the max WHP is only 2 higher. The increase in torque though is quite the feat! :thumbup:

I'm curious to see what the max speed is now.


----------



## OldKenzo (Aug 14, 2012)

RTErnie said:


> Waterfest 2013. It'll blow your ****ing mind.


Looking forward to it


----------



## Optimus812 (May 5, 2012)

Cool, look forward to trying it out. I'll send in my ecu asap! Nice torque gain. 

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

LynxFX said:


> Good writeup Arin and welcome back. I'm surprised the max WHP is only 2 higher. The increase in torque though is quite the feat! :thumbup:
> 
> I'm curious to see what the max speed is now.


What you'll end up feeling more is the area under the curve, rather than one max point in the entire rev range. Check towards redline and you'll see the gap getting a little larger. The higher redline doesn't hurt either. : )


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Optimus812 said:


> Cool, look forward to trying it out. I'll send in my ecu asap! Nice torque gain.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## lpriley32 (Jul 28, 2012)

Neither of us. Arin posted that back when the car had something like 250 miles on it. Back then, it could take the higher torque. After the clutch had a bit of abuse (about 5k miles or so), it couldn't take it anymore.

That's why we'll probably require an aftermarket clutch for Stage 3. Or, we'll at least strongly suggest it. Most people will likely choose to do the kit first and wait for their stock clutch to burn up before getting an aftermarket one.

My point is, that happens pretty quickly. After a little abuse, the clutch slips consistently at 475 ft lbs. 

Stated by [email protected] on another thread.

476 tq at the crank for the new release...any clutch issues?


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

lpriley32 said:


> Neither of us. Arin posted that back when the car had something like 250 miles on it. Back then, it could take the higher torque. After the clutch had a bit of abuse (about 5k miles or so), it couldn't take it anymore.
> 
> That's why we'll probably require an aftermarket clutch for Stage 3. Or, we'll at least strongly suggest it. Most people will likely choose to do the kit first and wait for their stock clutch to burn up before getting an aftermarket one.
> 
> ...


Not so far on our test car and it's been abused pretty hard. We're at the edge, but that's not a big deal on a clutch. It's either slipping and destroying itself or working as intended. 

In this case, it's working as intended.


----------



## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

RTErnie said:


> Waterfest 2013. It'll blow your ****ing mind.


If I don't faint immediately after seeing the release, I'll be disappointed.


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 8, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Not so far on our test car and it's been abused pretty hard. We're at the edge, but that's not a big deal on a clutch. It's either slipping and destroying itself or working as intended.
> 
> In this case, it's working as intended.


This.

Even our stage three prototype car in the UK ran a stock clutch and low 11s 

It's all about how you drive the car.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

joneze93tsi said:


> If I don't faint immediately after seeing the release, I'll be disappointed.


Might not faint...


----------



## smack_ttrs (Mar 24, 2013)

RTErnie said:


> Might not faint...


more power and weight loss???!!!


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

RTErnie said:


> Waterfest 2013. It'll blow your ****ing mind.


July 20th! Now we're talking.


----------



## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

I have been out of the loop for a week or so. I have the beta release and everything about it is great. I need to get a reflash as the redline is not raised on the beta.

The only thing I still have a question about is "what is the big surprise?" Someone else mentioned that they thought it was going to be program switching. I thought the same, but the write up says nothing about it. 

Please do tell!! I would love to be able to switch from 91 to 93 to race gas.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

Williamttrs said:


> I have been out of the loop for a week or so. I have the beta release and everything about it is great. I need to get a reflash as the redline is not raised on the beta.
> 
> The only thing I still have a question about is "what is the big surprise?" Someone else mentioned that they thought it was going to be program switching. I thought the same, but the write up says nothing about it.
> 
> Please do tell!! I would love to be able to switch from 91 to 93 to race gas.


7100 hard limiter on the new file. 

Who said there would be a big surprise?


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

croman44 said:


> What really bothers me is that I truly believe that if UM did not come out with their tune, that APR would have never been motivated to fix theirs. For that I owe UM a big thank you.


Have GIAC send me an email. I'll tell them how to sort it.




[email protected] said:


> After countless hours of research and development, APR’s pleased to provide the first and only true fix to the 2.5 TFSI “misfire” issue based on our own competitive analysis.


The basis for this was pulled from reverse engineering UM software. Our solution is no less effective. UM software points directly at the cause/solution. See next comment.





[email protected] said:


> APR’s Engineers were able to identify several OEM ECU calculation errors associated with producing high levels of torque.


Filling calculations are capped by internal modeling of the manifold pressure. The OEM code cannot 'see' higher boost pressure than 2560mb, despite having a 3000mb MAP sensor.
So anytime you went ~30mb above this you got a 'misfire'. V1 of apr software had sloppy boost control so the car would often overboost and hit this condition. The 'misfire' was actually the TB closing and re opening, never showing any misfire counts because the engine was behaving exactly as programmed, and did not actually misfire.
In UM software we tuned max boost for 2560mb for this reason. We have re-done TTRS ecu code to allow greater range. This is the miscalculation issue that now apr claim to have the only solution for. 



[email protected] said:


> Through implementation of the new patent pending APR Boost Control Strategy shared with our upcoming Stage III Turbocharger System, the ECU is now able to properly control boost pressure levels much higher than possible with the factory code alone.


You learned how to control by pressure now instead of filling by examining our method of boost control.





[email protected] said:


> APR outfitted the 2.5 TFSI with a Quattro GMBH inspired Motorsport Revlimiter


This was taken from how we implemented launch control. This function is native to ~all ecus back to M5.9 mk3 vw cars ('96).




[email protected] said:


> All checksum routines are fully in place and implemented properly


I fixed a few ex-apr cars where: apr returned the ecu to stock software yet the car had permanent 'goto workshop' messages on the cluster. I got the calls after apr said 'tough luck' to the car owners. 
You now have this fixed? After looking at our solution to the native TTRS tuning protection.




-Jeffrey Atwood


----------



## canuckttrs (Feb 5, 2012)

Jefnes3 said:


> Filling calculations are capped by internal modeling of the manifold pressure. The OEM code cannot 'see' higher boost pressure than 2560mb, despite having a 3000mb MAP sensor.
> So anytime you went ~30mb above this you got a 'misfire'. V1 of apr software had sloppy boost control so the car would often overboost and hit this condition. The 'misfire' was actually the TB closing and re opening, never showing any misfire counts because the engine was behaving exactly as programmed, and did not actually misfire.
> In UM software we tuned max boost for 2560mb for this reason. We have re-done TTRS ecu code to allow greater range. This is the miscalculation issue that now apr claim to have the only solution for.
> 
> ...


Exactly. This is the overboost problem i documented on QW back in March of this year. Glad they finally sorted it out. Perhaps Jeff should get some sort of licence fee


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Jefnes3 said:


> Have GIAC send me an email. I'll tell them how to sort it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Quoted for the response from engineering. Missing on all cylinders Jeff. : )


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

Hey Jeff. Best of luck trying to figure it out. I'm not going to tell you why you're wrong or what you've missed... but rest assured that I know... that you don't know.


----------



## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

Jefnes3 said:


> Have GIAC send me an email. I'll tell them how to sort it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Even I know this is incorrect in regards to map sensors and their range as APR and Revo already addresses what you stated is the "problem" like 2 years ago LOL


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

Jefnes3 said:


> Have GIAC send me an email. I'll tell them how to sort it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. Who is trolling who's thread now?
2. There was nothing in your file worth stealing


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

RTErnie said:


> Hey Jeff. Best of luck trying to figure it out. I'm not going to tell you why you're wrong or what you've missed... but rest assured that I know... that you don't know.


I am sure my explanation is over simplified.

Ernie we sort software 'issues' ~everyday this is no different. 
Do not waste your breath trying to convince me that what you do is somehow 
special / unique or otherwise magical. 
Your word is tainted.
1. you admit you viewed our work, there is NO WAY you can undo your actions. You cannot look at other work that sorts the issues you did not and then say that your 'new improved' version is all original work.
2. you said you would send me my file, you still have not.


I know enough to make a TTRS tune in ~8weeks that was better than your tune
with ~2 years time into. (this is what arin says anyway) 
I know enough to sort issues myself rather than having a look at other work to help me out.

Why not show the world you are clever.


-Jeffrey Atwood


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

Jefnes3 said:


> I am sure my explanation is over simplified.
> 
> Ernie we sort software 'issues' ~everyday this is no different.
> Do not waste your breath trying to convince me that what you do is somehow
> ...


You fail at trolling. Try again.


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> You fail at trolling. Try again.


Why do you think that?
becuase I chose not to add personal insults for attention?

-Jeffrey Atwood


----------



## lpriley32 (Jul 28, 2012)

more pissing matches...as Maclemore says "it smells like R Kelly's sheets" up in here...


----------



## bzflag (Apr 27, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> You fail at trolling. Try again.


Then send the man what he's asking for. He complied when you called him out on writing his own tools. You guys admitted to looking at his file. A hard enough of a look to conclude:



[email protected] said:


> 2. There was nothing in your file worth stealing


I don't understand why you're looking at other competitors tunes when you guys are the ones with the best callibrators and programmers in the industry. Can you give me any insight? If not to do a bit of reverse engineering, why even look at it?

I totally understand having competing products to bench test against, that's standard practice in any industry. Strap the competitors car to the dyno and see where everyone stands, but I still don't understand the point of openeing the code, unless you're trying to learn something.


----------



## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

To rebutt his claims perhaps?


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

bzflag said:


> Then send the man what he's asking for. He complied when you called him out on writing his own tools. You guys admitted to looking at his file. A hard enough of a look to conclude:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He asked Eric to send him the file we extracted, but we're not going to do that. We don't want the customer harassed (files are easy to make uniquely identifiable). He seems to have long ago accepted that we have it though, since he brings it up at every opportunity. 

Several customers have asked for a dyno shootout, but he won't participate. If you want to pressure somebody, pressure him to participate in a fair contest. We'll all agree to the rules in public and settle this once and for all.

Everybody looks at everybody's stuff. That's part of any business. Do you think that Brawny doesn't occasionally buy a pack of Bounty paper towels to see if they're any good?

Furthermore, judging from his post here, he's obviously seen our old one. He knows all about how it worked. So, he's either psychic, or he's seen it (of course, he'll never admit that..).

As for the tools bit, I ended up being correct. He might have posted some screenshots of something, but his file has a WinOLS signature right in it. Proof/pudding/etc.

I extracted the file because after driving the UM tuned car and easily duplicating the misfire issue going up hill, we were quite sure that our original statement was correct. He never fixed it, he just ran less boost so it was harder to cause. I wanted proof of that to settle the debate.




Jefnes3 said:


> Why do you think that?
> becuase I chose not to add personal insults for attention?
> 
> -Jeffrey Atwood


I didn't insult anybody.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Jeff,

It's simple. 

You stated you limit boost because going higher causes throttle closure and what people perceived as a "misfire":



Jefnes3 said:


> In UM software we tuned max boost for 2560mb for this reason.


This was YOUR solution to the problem and it's shared by many out there. 

Our software is NOT limited to 2560mbar and does not "misfire" / close the throttle as we've fixed the issue. 

Your own statements and claims completely contradicts any notion of one copying your work as by your own admission the problem is not fixed in your calibration. 

It's simply avoided by running less boost in the midrange, thus making less torque.

I personally recreated the exact same "misfire" / Throttle closure on a UM tuned customer's car by lugging it out in a high gear up a hill.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

Jefnes3 said:


> Why not show the world you are clever.
> 
> 
> -Jeffrey Atwood


I just did. That's why you're here asking me questions.


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

LOL

who cares what boost we decided to release software at, doesn't actually matter.
If car owners want to see more boost, its easy.

I can match or best apr torque curve with an ~hour of fiddling on the dyno.

ernie, I will be more clear:
I did not intend to ask you for ~anything specific.
I do not believe you know more or could provide us with expertise we do not already have.
I was kindly offering you a chance to earn back some credibility.

re: your ~silly dyno contest
We get to load a copy of the file you want to 'compete' against.
You do not need my participation to conduct such a test.


-Jeffrey Atwood


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

Jefnes3 said:


> LOL
> 
> who cares what boost we decided to release software at, doesn't actually matter.
> If car owners want to see more boost, its easy.
> ...



No need. I did it for you.


----------



## canuckttrs (Feb 5, 2012)

you mean apr did a dyno comparison and theirs came out with more power? holy cow, that's shocking


----------



## lpriley32 (Jul 28, 2012)

APR continues to keep my money in my pocket!


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> Furthermore, judging from his post here, he's obviously seen our old one. He knows all about how it worked. So, he's either psychic, or he's seen it (of course, he'll never admit that..).


I am not psychic.

I will always admit to stuff I done.

By all means, explain how anything I posted is an indicator I've seen your work?
Any info I have was gathered from customer/arin posts. 

you really think a loyal apr customer would bring their car to me to snoop?
as far as I know: no present/past/future apr customer has ever been to my shop. 

snooping files and reverse engineering requires time I do not have. i.e. it takes longer
to reverse engineer your stuff than to just find our own solutions.

Hypothetical:
so you make a calibration and apply some apr made encryption/obusification
to the file. Do you believe we spent the time and have the ability to ~undo 
that AND then once that's done reverse engineer your working code to see what/how you did things? All of this just shoot down version 2? or: all of this to make silly internet postings?

to what end then? if your version 1 is 'not right' and has no value to you, what
value is there for me to to look at it?




-Jeffrey Atwood


----------



## LynxFX (May 17, 2012)

canuckttrs said:


> you mean apr did a dyno comparison and theirs came out with more power? holy cow, that's shocking


I offered my car up for the dyno comparison last month when personally asked by UM and even extended it to this month but neither party seems to be all that interested in actually doing it. Based on the back and forth with them, the lack of trust, and the concerns my local shop even brought up I don't think I'll do it. There is no reason for me to risk my car on a dick measuring contest when it is so easy for them to tweak the tune just for the dyno and possibly beyond the tolerances of the car. 

That said I have the updated APR tune and it is fabulous. If you have the UM tune, then great, you should be out enjoying your car.


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

Jefnes3 said:


> By all means, explain how anything I posted is an indicator I've seen your work?





Jefnes3 said:


> V1 of apr software had sloppy boost control so the car would often overboost and hit this condition.





Jefnes3 said:


> The 'misfire' was actually the TB closing and re opening





Jefnes3 said:


> never showing any misfire counts because the engine was behaving exactly as programmed, and did not actually misfire.





bsmack said:


> This is when I met Jesse, a rep for United Motorsport.
> 
> Before I continue I must say that I am in no way, shape, or form affiliated or associated with UM. At the time I was simply a frustrated APR customer that wanted to fall in love with my car again and was given an opportunity to do so by giving up my car for what seemed like an eternity to me (5 weeks).





bsmack said:


> I owned the UM development TT-RS


Your DEV TT-RS came to you with an APR tune. So, you started everything you did from an APR flashed ECU.



Jefnes3 said:


> as far as I know: no present/past/future apr customer has ever been to my shop.


???

Bottom line, quit with the holier-than-though crap. I live in Alabama. I get enough of that crap from the locals. We've seen yours, you've seen ours and everybody knows it. Admit it and be forgiven.



Jefnes3 said:


> I can match or best apr torque curve with an ~hour of fiddling on the dyno.


1. Sure you can... by using open loop boost. Crank up that waste gate! We make that curve closed loop. Match THAT and we'll talk.
2. We beat your production file with our production file (Both our V1 and our V2). No fiddling, no BS, straight up file that anybody can get from any APR dealer.

Now, I will admit that V1 did have occasional issues in colder climates. V2 makes the power but doesn't have those issues because it runs similar boost levels and it's CLOSED LOOP.



Jefnes3 said:


> re: your ~silly dyno contest
> We get to load a copy of the file you want to 'compete' against.
> You do not need my participation to conduct such a test.


1. It's not ours, a customer request it.
2. Start a thread and we'll hash out the terms. Generally though: I'm not letting you flash our file. You wouldn't let us flash yours. Random customer at any APR dealer is acceptable. They should be random to you as well. They send it in and get your flash, do the dyno. Then, go to an APR
dealer and get it flashed again. They pay for the flash at the dealer, send me their VIN and I'll reimburse the price. If we do this, I refuse to do it in any way that somebody can argue with later. I don't want to know the customer, I don't want to know the VIN, nothing until it's been done.

3. We already did it without your participation and kicked your a$$. You have never accepted this and refuse to even acknowledge that it happened. You love to say that


Jefnes3 said:


> The basis for this was pulled from reverse engineering UM software


 But you still insist that we never had your binary and our dyno run is bullsh1t.

Which is it? Do we have it or do we not? At least make consistent accusations.


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

LynxFX said:


> I offered my car up for the dyno comparison last month when personally asked by UM and even extended it to this month but neither party seems to be all that interested in actually doing it. Based on the back and forth with them, the lack of trust, and the concerns my local shop even brought up I don't think I'll do it. There is no reason for me to risk my car on a dick measuring contest when it is so easy for them to tweak the tune just for the dyno and possibly beyond the tolerances of the car.
> 
> That said I have the updated APR tune and it is fabulous. If you have the UM tune, then great, you should be out enjoying your car.


We're down. Let me know what you need from us.


----------



## LynxFX (May 17, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> We're down. Let me know what you need from us.


Thanks Sean, but I'm out of the dyno comparison. I talked with Eurocode and too many red flags for me to hand over my daily driver. 

Thank you are your team for the great work on the final tune though. :thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

Can someone run a vagcom log with the new tune? Do misfires and timing and run a second one with boost actual and specified . I want to compair to stock I have stock vagcom logs from my car. Carl


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> We make that curve closed loop. Match THAT and we'll talk.


Piece of cake! :thumbup:

When did you guys learn how to tune closed loop boost well?
apr boost control has been sloppy since ~always. (this may not be your work
with apr engineering turnover)



-Jeffrey Atwood


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Putting the tuners wars aside for a moment...

The large swell of torque 3000-4000rpm likely feels great pulling out into a street, but it isn't going to help much/any with a hard launch (revs @ 4000-5000rpm) or once you shift out of the first gear you start the pull from. Let's say you start a rolling pull from 2nd. You are going to shift @ 7000 rpm and fall back what 2k-2.5k rpm or so (didn't check the TT-RS transmission gearing vs road speed calculations)? That will put you in the 4.5k rpm range and out of this newfound low end torque. Point being is that unless you short shift, you won't be in the 3k-4k rpm range for the rest of the pull.

The extra torque is "neat" and likely fun driving around in non-race mode. I just don't see this torque as helping in a 1/4 mile race or even rolling start but for a split second. What would be much more useful is extending the torque plateau past 4k rpm. The TT-RS needs help on the top end more than anything. (Yes, I know that is where the APR Stage 3 and Loba LP500+ kit comes into play.)

Note: I am not bashing APR! The stock turbo can only push so much air before getting way outside its efficiency map.


----------



## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

carl44 said:


> Can someone run a vagcom log with the new tune? Do misfires and timing and run a second one with boost actual and specified . I want to compair to stock I have stock vagcom logs from my car. Carl


I'd really like to see a log email me one and ill email a dupe stock one back to compair. Im just curious and want to see how much timing pull there is before I buy the APR tune. Thanks carl


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

carl44 said:


> I'd really like to see a log email me one and ill email a dupe stock one back to compair. Im just curious and want to see how much timing pull there is before I buy the APR tune. Thanks carl


This is a log from a customer in the UK with a TTRS with the v2.0 file. Excuse him for only getting 4 cylinders out of the 5


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

w00t


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

RTErnie said:


> This is a log from a customer in the UK with a TTRS with the v2.0 file. Excuse him for only getting 4 cylinders out of the 5


Where is the huge boost that has been debated to death? I see a max of 2550mb. Is the log not showing the actual pressure or is 2550mb the actual max boost with the APR V2 Stage 2 tune?


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

hightechrdn said:


> Where is the huge boost that has been debated to death? I see a max of 2550mb. Is the log not showing the actual pressure or is 2550mb the actual max boost with the APR V2 Stage 2 tune?


Ya, vagcom can't read our boost variables. It's on my todo list to put together some docs so Ross tech can add our variables.

Haven't done it yet though.

The other variables are correct.


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Ya, vagcom can't read our boost variables. It's on my todo list to put together some docs so Ross tech can add our variables.
> 
> Haven't done it yet though.
> 
> The other variables are correct.


So how much boost should one expect with the Stage 2 tune? Is a boost curve plot available?


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

hightechrdn said:


> So how much boost should one expect with the Stage 2 tune? Is a boost curve plot available?


I just wrote the code, I didn't calibrate it. So, I don't know exactly what the values are in the shipping version. If he gets time in between waterfest prep, I'm sure Ernie will chime in and give you something.


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## Optimus812 (May 5, 2012)

Not sure how accurate my bluetooth odb reader is but it shows appx 22.5psi at 4k.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

my scangauge has read 1.5 bar at above 6200 rpm, with my Siemoneit map
Don't think it will be 1,5,as the scangauge is a bit slow with only 3 readings a second.but should still be above 1.4 bar
intakes went to +14c over ambient on that 4th gear run.
This APR map looks good,so I will be happy get an APR map back on my car to try out,once it's been given the OK for the Stronic.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

You'll only read accurate if you have a boost tap and an analog gauge.

Nothing over obd will be right, unless they've added our variables. I've worked with p3 a bit, but were not done. I'll give docs to rosstech at waterfest.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

hightechrdn said:


> So how much boost should one expect with the Stage 2 tune? Is a boost curve plot available?


The only problem with "boost curves" is that they are never identical. Essentially, you don't tell the ECU "Run 25 lbs of boost" and that's it. Depending on altitude, ambient pressure, ambient temperature, humidity and engine mods the values can change. 

When discussing boost, keep in mind the engine is also dynamic in that some parts within the engine can move which will allow the same amount of airflow at lower boost pressures. The key is to move more air through the engine.

Anyways, now that that's out of the way, I looked on my computer for an older log from development. This is fairly close, but I don't know the ambient pressure so I can't convert it to gauge PSI. I assume you could guess around 1000 mbar to get a rough idea. 










Also, this is data taken from the ECU. The ECU can see and read higher than the 2550 mbar limit available via Vag-Com. We use APR ECU Explorer (Our proprietary in house development logging suite) to capture data at high sample rates and we have access to everything inside of the ECU. :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

26-28psi depending on ambient conditions.

If you row through the gears, you may not achieve that boost because the car will only make that boost at lower engine speeds. Boost tapers to redline because the turbo is simply out of breath. Back pressure is steadily increasing and the compressor has no more mass flow left in it.


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## southpole12 (Mar 29, 2012)

*Rough startups*

I just got the new stage 2 version. The old one had an automatic idle at 800 from startup. This one starts at 1200 than revs to like 13 or 14 than back to twelve consistently until it goes to 800 and idles normal. Has anyone seen this also? Arin?


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## southpole12 (Mar 29, 2012)

Btw the car is really fast now. Tune is awesome other than startup.


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

southpole12 said:


> Btw the car is really fast now. Tune is awesome other than startup.


I'm going to redo the cold start on the next revision.... so it's a lot less obnoxious. We didn't touch it on this calibration.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

RTErnie said:


> I'm going to redo the cold start on the next revision.... so it's a lot less obnoxious. We didn't touch it on this calibration.


Why? The obnoxious start is part of the cars character, at least for me...


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

hightechrdn said:


> Why? The obnoxious start is part of the cars character, at least for me...


Because some want it and some don't, so why not! : )

It will be an optional feature.


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## southpole12 (Mar 29, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Because some want it and some don't, so why not! : )
> 
> It will be an optional feature.


Yea it's too obnoxious for me. Sounds like your tapping the pedal without doing it. I would definitely want that. When would that be revised?


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

have the servers been fixed?

why does it oscillate up and down? on my apr v1 it does high rpm cold start but its perfectly constant until it drops below 1k


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

tdi-bart said:


> have the servers been fixed?


The VPN server was rebuilt last week so you're all good to go. 



> why does it oscillate up and down? on my apr v1 it does high rpm cold start but its perfectly constant until it drops below 1k


I'm not sure. I've noticed cold start on the TTRS is pretty rough on some cars, even completely unmodified.


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## southpole12 (Mar 29, 2012)

tdi-bart said:


> have the servers been fixed?
> 
> why does it oscillate up and down? on my apr v1 it does high rpm cold start but its perfectly constant until it drops below 1k


Once it drops to 800 its fine. It is the initial start that fluctuates for a couple of seconds. Also this is the first time this has happened to me since the car was stock and with the past stage 2 tunes.


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## RSjonny (Jun 27, 2013)

Came to USP Motorsports today to get reflashed from S1 v.1 to S1 v.2.0










As I was leaving the place with my new revised tune I felt all happy, as if there was going to be more power (100 miles away from my home), I get on the highway and as I push the throttle in at 75% my TT RS feels like its back to stock, so I do this repeatedly to make sure it isn't. But it is. So then, I get to about 80MPH and push it in 5th & 6th gear WOT and right at 3200RPM my car just goes into limp mode. Took over 16 seconds to get from 80MPH to 100MPH. Meanwhile I'm about 20 miles away from USP Motorsports, so I call, report the problem. They have me turn around to see what the problem is & they confirmed my vehicle is going into limp mode.

They have been on the phone with APR the last 15 minutes trying to get them to send me my old v. 1 file back to them so they can reflash me back.

In waiting room at this moment... Very very frustrating  200 mile trip and 6 hours for nothing.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## canuckttrs (Feb 5, 2012)

oh man, sorry to hear. hope it gets sorted out like right away. :beer:


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

can they re-flash to stock till they sort it out? i thought they had it fixed?carl


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## bsmack (Oct 16, 2008)

RSjonny said:


> Came to USP Motorsports today to get reflashed from S1 v.1 to S1 v.2.0
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, seriously hope that gets resolved. Even worse than the misfire issue.


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## Optimus812 (May 5, 2012)

RSjonny said:


> Came to USP Motorsports today to get reflashed from S1 v.1 to S1 v.2.0
> 
> As I was leaving the place with my new revised tune I felt all happy, as if there was going to be more power (100 miles away from my home), I get on the highway and as I push the throttle in at 75% my TT RS feels like its back to stock, so I do this repeatedly to make sure it isn't. But it is. So then, I get to about 80MPH and push it in 5th & 6th gear WOT and right at 3200RPM my car just goes into limp mode. Took over 16 seconds to get from 80MPH to 100MPH. Meanwhile I'm about 20 miles away from USP Motorsports, so I call, report the problem. They have me turn around to see what the problem is & they confirmed my vehicle is going into limp mode.
> 
> ...



I had mine reflashed to the new version (2.0) Stage II last Wednesday and the car is running stronger than the old version. I haven't run into any limp modes...Was it an overboost fault or something??


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## RSjonny (Jun 27, 2013)

I'm back to v.1.2 Thank God
Heading back home now.











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## southpole12 (Mar 29, 2012)

RSjonny said:


> I'm back to v.1.2 Thank God
> Heading back home now.
> 
> 
> ...


Glad you got it fixed. Overall, disappointed with apr and all the issues even though mine is just a startup issue. It is very annoying. This is the 3rd tune and still with issues.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

southpole12 said:


> Overall, disappointed with apr and all the issues even though mine is just a startup issue.


The startup routine is completely stock. 

That's how the TT RS starts in a cold start.

It's not modified. It's not an APR thing. It's stock.


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## southpole12 (Mar 29, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> The startup routine is completely stock.
> 
> That's how the TT RS starts in a cold start.
> 
> It's not modified. It's not an APR thing. It's stock.


Not true. The car never had this issue stock. The first tune startup was The same as stock. The lo file had an automatic 800 rpm startup. This new tune is the first of the three that has given me a startup issue. Therefore it is a tune issue not a stock issue.


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

southpole12 said:


> Not true. The car never had this issue stock. The first tune startup was The same as stock. The lo file had an automatic 800 rpm startup. This new tune is the first of the three that has given me a startup issue. Therefore it is a tune issue not a stock issue.


I'll take a look at it. Thank you for letting us know.

RSJonny,
EDIT: I just called USP and spoke with them about it. I bet it's underboosting. If you can go back and get a log of the car on v2, I can diagnose it and make a change and have it ready for DPP same day.


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## southpole12 (Mar 29, 2012)

RTErnie said:


> I'll take a look at it. Thank you for letting us know.
> 
> RSJonny,
> What fault code is it throwing via VAG COM?


Ok. I hope it is an easy fix.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

southpole12 said:


> Not true. The car never had this issue stock. The first tune startup was The same as stock. The lo file had an automatic 800 rpm startup. This new tune is the first of the three that has given me a startup issue. Therefore it is a tune issue not a stock issue.


Don't forget the exhaust. Did you have the exhaust installed on your car when the ECU was stock?


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## RSjonny (Jun 27, 2013)

> Originally Posted by RTErnie
> 
> RSJonny,
> 
> What fault code is it throwing via VAG COM?


I just got off the phone with them to answer your question:

Answer: None




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## southpole12 (Mar 29, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Don't forget the exhaust. Did you have the exhaust installed on your car when the ECU was stock?


It was installed with the first stage 2 tune in which it had the same startup as stock.


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

southpole12 said:


> I just got the new stage 2 version. The old one had an automatic idle at 800 from startup. This one starts at 1200 than revs to like 13 or 14 than back to twelve consistently until it goes to 800 and idles normal. Has anyone seen this also? Arin?


I've had that before aswell when I was on Revo. Don't know why it did it every now and again.
Does yours do it every time?


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## southpole12 (Mar 29, 2012)

Poverty said:


> I've had that before aswell when I was on Revo. Don't know why it did it every now and again.
> Does yours do it every time?


Everytime so far.


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## linuxrc (May 12, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> The startup routine is completely stock.
> 
> That's how the TT RS starts in a cold start.
> 
> It's not modified. It's not an APR thing. It's stock.


My car is completely stock. Just wanted to say. Cold start the rpm goes up and remains steady at that rpm. I forget what it is, somewhere around 1200 rpm could be a bit higher but the point is that it is steady. After 90 seconds or something to that effect it goes down to about 800 rpm.


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## southpole12 (Mar 29, 2012)

linuxrc said:


> My car is completely stock. Just wanted to say. Cold start the rpm goes up and remains steady at that rpm. I forget what it is, somewhere around 1200 rpm could be a bit higher but the point is that it is steady. After 90 seconds or something to that effect it goes down to about 800 rpm.


Yea that's normal except mine jumps around 12-14 than goes to 800.


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

1520	39.1 clod start stock. carl
1440	36.8
1400	42.1
1400	43.6
1400	42.1
1400	42.1
1400	42.1
1400	41.4
1360	39.8
1400	39.1
1400	38.3
1360	38.3
1360	38.3
1400	37.6
1360	37.6
1400	36.8
1360	37.6
1360	37.6
1360	36.8
1400	36.8
1400	36.8
1360	36.8
1400	36.8
1400	36.8
1360	36.1
1360	36.1
1360	36.1
1360	36.1


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

1320	31.6	0
1280	31.6	0 end of cold start stock. carl
1200	30.8	0
1160	30.8	0
1120	30.8	0
1040	30.1	0
1000	30.8	0
960	30.1	0
920	30.8	0
880	30.8	0
800	31.6	0
720	27.8	0
720	26.3	0
680	24.8	0
680	23.3	0
680	21.1	0
680	20.3	0
680	18.8	0
680	18	0


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

southpole12 said:


> Once it drops to 800 its fine. It is the initial start that fluctuates for a couple of seconds. Also this is the first time this has happened to me since the car was stock and with the past stage 2 tunes.


Sorry, did catch that it is actually the PRM is actually fluctuating. I was referring to the high idle and extra injection events that give the cars a "racecar" type character on cold starts. 

Though my car doesn't have any RPM fluctuations beyond the high cold idle, it is very easy to stall when cold for the first couple of minutes. Even after the RPM drops down to a normal idle level, the engine struggles a bit when trying to feather the clutch for backing out of a parking space. Once in gear and accelerating, it runs okay, but it acts like a carb'd engine trying to run with too much choke or even one with fouled plugs. After the first 2-3 minutes, it doesn't run like this until the next truly cold start. This is with both the OEM and UM Stage 2 tunes. Audi dealer says its normal for a "RS" car to be high strung when cold... probably BS, but didn't bother me enough to push them when I had the OEM tune.


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

southpole12 said:


> Not true. The car never had this issue stock. The first tune startup was The same as stock. The lo file had an automatic 800 rpm startup. This new tune is the first of the three that has given me a startup issue. Therefore it is a tune issue not a stock issue.


Try a capacitive discharge, it may take care of the start up issue. Disconnect the battery terminals and hold them together for 20-30 seconds. Reconnect and see if it cleared it up.


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

RSjonny said:


> I just got off the phone with them to answer your question:
> 
> Answer: None
> 
> ...


Mine was the same, with the early APR stage 2 map,and an earlier map from a German tuner.
Went into no boost mode virtually every time I put my foot down,so had to take it off the car in the end.
There were never any fault codes,which is why it's been very hard for tuners to fix.
it also seems to only happen on certain cars from what I can tell.
I was hoping APR had this problem licked a long time ago ?
Hope it gets fixed asap


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

hightechrdn said:


> Sorry, did catch that it is actually the PRM is actually fluctuating. I was referring to the high idle and extra injection events that give the cars a "racecar" type character on cold starts.
> 
> Though my car doesn't have any RPM fluctuations beyond the high cold idle, it is very easy to stall when cold for the first couple of minutes. Even after the RPM drops down to a normal idle level, the engine struggles a bit when trying to feather the clutch for backing out of a parking space. Once in gear and accelerating, it runs okay, but it acts like a carb'd engine trying to run with too much choke or even one with fouled plugs. After the first 2-3 minutes, it doesn't run like this until the next truly cold start. This is with both the OEM and UM Stage 2 tunes. Audi dealer says its normal for a "RS" car to be high strung when cold... probably BS, but didn't bother me enough to push them when I had the OEM tune.


The car runs in HSP mode (homogenous split injection) and runs -15 degrees of ignition advance. Which is 15 degrees ATDC. Yeah it won't run that well. It's intended for for catalyst heating... for improved emissions during the cold FTP cycle required by the EPA.


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## 1TT1 (Sep 27, 2007)

RTErnie said:


> I'll take a look at it. Thank you for letting us know.


Make it sing the Anthem to warmup.


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## InTTruder (Mar 28, 2006)

See my thread today. Picked up my car (It is THE mule for APR Stage 2 R&D) with the Stage 2 + RSC + FMIC. I also drove the Stage 3 TT RS. I think (not opine or guess, think) they've done a fine job of identifying and fixing the root cause. I now have over 300 miles of hard charging to make me think that way. These include some serious and repeated pulls way up to the triple nickle.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

RTErnie said:


> The car runs in HSP mode (homogenous split injection) and runs -15 degrees of ignition advance. Which is 15 degrees ATDC. Yeah it won't run that well. It's intended for for catalyst heating... for improved emissions during the cold FTP cycle required by the EPA.


Thanks for the info! I was aware of the split injection events, which is what makes the high idle period loud as heck (which I don't mind). It must be retarding the timing for a couple of minutes after lowering the idle, which explains why it doesn't want to run well (or at all).

Since my cats ran away, I will have to talk to my tuner about the ignition advance during that warm up period. 

I appreciate the tech help!


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

smack_ttrs said:


> testing the new stage 2 version. coming from stock i have to say it's a very healthy jump in power. also not feeling any misfires or anything strange.
> 
> once the guys get back from pikes peak i'll throw the car back on the dyno to see what kind of increase we are seeing over stock and log a few pulls to make sure we don't see anything odd.
> 
> ...


Did you manage to make any dyno? I'm curious about the whp figure.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

We did new flashes on 5 cars and gave the update to 2 at waterfest. I expect some of them will chime in with feedback.


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## Vexige (May 28, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> We did new flashes on 5 cars and gave the update to 2 at waterfest. I expect some of them will chime in with feedback.


I bought my car (2012) with the flash 1.5 month ago. Am the second owner; the original flash was done a year ago on the Waterfest by the previous owner. Got my reflush yesterday from the dealer. Was told that the ECU needs to be removed, b/c I had the first version of Stage 1 and they can't do a reflush with it being in the car... 
Granted, I didn't drive her enough, but my first impression, car feel more "civilized" (starts right away, with old version it took few seconds), but certainly slower, especially at lower RPM (below 2500). Seems like low end torque diminished...
I even called the dealer and APR, asking if by any chance the factory tune was downloaded. They both assured me that this is impossible.
I am more of a carburetor guy, certainly not an expert in contemporary engines, software. So forgive my ignorance, this is a subjective feedback, although based on extensive experience, some of it in racing.

Isaak


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

Vexige said:


> I bought my car (2012) with the flash 1.5 month ago. Am the second owner; the original flash was done a year ago on the Waterfest by the previous owner. Got my reflush yesterday from the dealer. Was told that the ECU needs to be removed, b/c I had the first version of Stage 1 and they can't do a reflush with it being in the car...
> Granted, I didn't drive her enough, but my first impression, car feel more "civilized" (starts right away, with old version it took few seconds), but certainly slower, especially at lower RPM (below 2500). Seems like low end torque diminished...
> I even called the dealer and APR, asking if by any chance the factory tune was downloaded. They both assured me that this is impossible.
> I am more of a carburetor guy, certainly not an expert in contemporary engines, software. So forgive my ignorance, this is a subjective feedback, although based on extensive experience, some of it in racing.
> ...


Below 2500 RPM, the turbo isn't doing anything. Most likely, you're feeling the difference because of the cold start changes and/or the following issue:

On these cars, there is a calibration cycle on some of the hardware functions that happens after starting. If you accelerate immediately after starting (within 10 seconds), everything won't be online and you'll be significantly down in power. 

After you start the car, give it 10 seconds of warmup with no throttle inputs. The difference will be quite noticeable.


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## Vexige (May 28, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> If you accelerate immediately after starting (within 10 seconds), everything won't be online and you'll be significantly down in power.
> After you start the car, give it 10 seconds of warmup with no throttle inputs. The difference will be quite noticeable.


Sean,

I never accelerate hard or push right after start, especially cold start- old habits.
All I am saying, it seems she pulled harder on lower RPM with the previous version.
Yesterday, I tried few pulls on highway and going uphill from lower RPM, after driving slowly for a few miles through town. Again, I need to drive her more. Will be happy to report that I was wrong.
Can you comment on removing an ECU to reflush, since it was the first version?

Thanks, Isaak


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## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

I'm looking to get a tune or maybe jump straight to Stage 3,but my main concern is getting warranty work done. Is there a way to flash the ECU back to stock or have a second ECU so the dealer can do the mandatory scan and my car doesn't get flagged? The dealer is OK with mods, but Audi is a pain.


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## RSjonny (Jun 27, 2013)

Vexige said:


> I bought my car (2012) with the flash 1.5 month ago. Am the second owner; the original flash was done a year ago on the Waterfest by the previous owner. Got my reflush yesterday from the dealer. Was told that the ECU needs to be removed, b/c I had the first version of Stage 1 and they can't do a reflush with it being in the car...
> Granted, I didn't drive her enough, but my first impression, car feel more "civilized" (starts right away, with old version it took few seconds), but certainly slower, especially at lower RPM (below 2500). Seems like low end torque diminished...
> I even called the dealer and APR, asking if by any chance the factory tune was downloaded. They both assured me that this is impossible.
> I am more of a carburetor guy, certainly not an expert in contemporary engines, software. So forgive my ignorance, this is a subjective feedback, although based on extensive experience, some of it in racing.
> ...



2 weeks ago, I drove over 250 miles and 7 hours of my time to get re-flashed from V 1.2 to V 2.0 and got nothing but low power, limp mode etc. halfway home I turned around back to my tuner to get re-flashed back to V 1.2. Got all my power back. Very disappointing & Frustrating.

The conciliation prize was getting a message from RTErnie saying he & Sean would "Fly" down to Florida and log my car personally. And they may be able to bring me an Intercooler for my troubles.

Never heard back from him with his proposal.

I'm skeptical to do anything more to the car now 

2013 Audi TT RS 
APR Stage 1 v1.2




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

RSjonny said:


> 2 weeks ago, I drove over 250 miles and 7 hours of my time to get re-flashed from V 1.2 to V 2.0 and got nothing but low power, limp mode etc. halfway home I turned around back to my tuner to get re-flashed back to V 1.2. Got all my power back. Very disappointing & Frustrating.
> 
> The conciliation prize was getting a message from RTErnie saying he & Sean would "Fly" down to Florida and log my car personally. And they may be able to bring me an Intercooler for my troubles.
> 
> ...


Waterfest jammed us up pretty bad. I'll talk to Ernie and we'll PM you soon. You're the first person to have any issues with the new file and we want to figure it out.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

Vexige said:


> Sean,
> 
> I never accelerate hard or push right after start, especially cold start- old habits.
> All I am saying, it seems she pulled harder on lower RPM with the previous version.
> ...


I'll ping Ernie on this one, but I don't think there's any difference down there once the car is warm. That's down in the un-boosted region and that stuff is pretty straight-forward.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

so whats this about having to remove the ecu again??? i too had my ecu flashed by apr themselves back in august 2012 (i shipped the ecu to them), i need to pull the ecu out again?


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## Vexige (May 28, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> That's down in the un-boosted region and that stuff is pretty straight-forward.


How about ignition timing? Was it pulled back in the new version on lower rpm?


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## IPSA (Dec 25, 2011)

*V2 early thoughts.*

I too just reflashed to V2 and added IC at the same time.

Car is more linear but does seem to have more low end lag whether from standing stop or low RPM to high RPM transition. Thought it might be related to spooling drag by new IC but another thread seems to suggest not. Seems present even without touching pedals during warm up.

Tough to judge whether this version has any better performance but I now feel the need to keep RPM's higher with new tune where I did not feel that need with old tune. 

I realize v2 is designed to solve a problem not necessarily result in better performance so expectations should be in that context.

I do like the new hard limiter.


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## Vexige (May 28, 2013)

IPSA said:


> I too just reflashed to V2 and added IC at the same time.
> 
> Car is more linear but does seem to have more low end lag whether from standing stop or low RPM to high RPM transition.
> *I now feel the need to keep RPM's higher with new tune* where I did not feel that need with old tune.


^^^^ This


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

I always find with a new map the car learns and gets faster after a few days of hard driving


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

tdi-bart said:


> so whats this about having to remove the ecu again??? i too had my ecu flashed by apr themselves back in august 2012 (i shipped the ecu to them), i need to pull the ecu out again?


Some of the very earliest ones will require removal a second time. Your dealer can plug in and determine whether it needs removed or not. Nearly all of them can be updated through the port.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

is there a way over IM we can determine this? my dealer is 200 miles away

i can send you my vin


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

tdi-bart said:


> is there a way over IM we can determine this? my dealer is 200 miles away
> 
> i can send you my vin


Your dealer should have the tools to flash it even if requires pulling. Just ask if they have a CCD.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

here it is vs original stg1 93

does it explain the low down lag and higher up revs needed? scaled the best i could cause they always change the x and y values

i guess if you did max throttle under 2000 rpm you might notice its slower? i never do wot until 3k personally

as for high rpm power the new version seems much better in the graphs anyway, so should require less revving 

the new soft appears to be slacking in the 5-6k range compared to old one, perhaps why it feels more linear now

there is one thing i would like to point out though, in both graphs the stock vs modded power are exactly the same until ~2300rpm, however as you can see overlaying the graphs that isnt the case anymore, but i double checked a few points by hand and they line up sooooo i dunno (you can see the yellow dotted line representing the supposed stock torq from their very first dyno)


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## IPSA (Dec 25, 2011)

Interesting. 

To clarify, I am running Stage 2, 93 oct, with full RSC and IC.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

tdi-bart said:


> here it is vs original stg1 93
> 
> does it explain the low down lag and higher up revs needed? scaled the best i could cause they always change the x and y values
> 
> ...


This comparison is not accurate. The comparison I put on our website was the same car in comparable weather. 

We actually spent time ensuring the turbo spools faster than it did before. The graph on our website illustrates the slight difference in spool attributed to tuning changes. 

The dyno can be setup to start and run from any RPM and for any time period. The way it was setup before, it would slightly spool at the beginning of the run, which is why the graph looks different. 

Weather and other variables will play into why the numbers are higher at some RPM's than others. Basically it's not a realistic comparison all things considered. 

This is an accurate comparison between the old and new software:


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Below 2500 RPM, the turbo isn't doing anything. Most likely, you're feeling the difference because of the cold start changes and/or the following issue:
> 
> On these cars, there is a calibration cycle on some of the hardware functions that happens after starting. If you accelerate immediately after starting (within 10 seconds), everything won't be online and you'll be significantly down in power.
> 
> After you start the car, give it 10 seconds of warmup with no throttle inputs. The difference will be quite noticeable.


I thought the Audi literature stated that at 1600 RPM's the engine was at full torque? I could be wrong. My car definitely has turbo power below 2500 RPM's though.


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Some of the very earliest ones will require removal a second time. Your dealer can plug in and determine whether it needs removed or not. Nearly all of them can be updated through the port.


My car was purchased at the end of March 2013 and flashed to stage 1.2 in April of 2013. I received the Beta 2.0 flash and then the Beta 2.01 flash. In each instance my ECU was removed. I am assuming when I go back for the final flash, the same thing will happen. Although, I am not sure if I will do this anytime soon since I was told the only difference between the Beta I have and the final is the rev limit increase.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

Williamttrs said:


> My car was purchased at the end of March 2013 and flashed to stage 1.2 in April of 2013. I received the Beta 2.0 flash and then the Beta 2.01 flash. In each instance my ECU was removed. I am assuming when I go back for the final flash, the same thing will happen. Although, I am not sure if I will do this anytime soon since I was told the only difference between the Beta I have and the final is the rev limit increase.


that's right max torq stock starts from 1600, here is audi's dyno


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> This comparison is not accurate.


well, besides the mystery thats going on up until 2500rpm your before and after seems to corroborate my overlays:

-more power at redline
-more torq from 3-4.5k
-dip in power @ 5k

just like i drew it


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

A lot of that depends how the engine is loaded on the dyno. If the turbo has a moment spool (kinda like brake torquing) it could show it spooling faster.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

Williamttrs said:


> My car was purchased at the end of March 2013 and flashed to stage 1.2 in April of 2013. I received the Beta 2.0 flash and then the Beta 2.01 flash. In each instance my ECU was removed. I am assuming when I go back for the final flash, the same thing will happen. Although, I am not sure if I will do this anytime soon since I was told the only difference between the Beta I have and the final is the rev limit increase.


That shouldn't have been necessary. PM me your dealer and I'll check with them.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

Eric on Sean's account here.

The dyno pulls this time were done from 1500 RPMS, not 2000 RPMS. So if you look at the old dyno plots, they look deceivingly better than they actually are. So take that with a grain of salt. 

Reason why you perceive the car is slower at lower engine speeds is because of the dramatic increase in midrange torque.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

here is the first graph, seems to start at 1500 to me? i'm pro apr but so far the answers given for the low rpm discrepancy seem sketchy to me

someone go do a before and after dyno if you can if you are upgrading your chip from the original...


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

tdi-bart said:


> here is the first graph, seems to start at 1500 to me? i'm pro apr but so far the answers given for the low rpm discrepancy seem sketchy to me
> 
> someone go do a before and after dyno if you can if you are upgrading your chip from the original...


Why are people even at full throttle at such low RPM? It will only kill your clutch quicker, use the gears!!!


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Poverty said:


> Why are people even at full throttle at such low RPM? It will only kill your clutch quicker, use the gears!!!


What would that have any effect on your clutch life? If I floor at 2000 RPM in 2nd gear vs. 6th gear, the torque at the clutch is actually higher in 6th.


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

Marty said:


> What would that have any effect on your clutch life? If I floor at 2000 RPM in 2nd gear vs. 6th gear, the torque at the clutch is actually higher in 6th.


That's the whole point.

Full throttle at 2000rpm in 3rd 4th 5th 6th is just stupid. The clutch won't last long driving it like you're taking part in tractor pulling.

Btw is this what people are experience.

Say you are rolling along in 1st, clutch engaged, no throttle, rolling along on idle speed, then when you floor the throttle, would you say you could count 1,2 and then the car throws you back into the seat? Is this what you guys mean?


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Poverty said:


> That's the whole point.
> 
> Full throttle at 2000rpm in 3rd 4th 5th 6th is just stupid. The clutch won't last long driving it like you're taking part in tractor pulling.
> 
> ...


But the above dyno curve shows that the torque at 2000 RPM is actually less than at 5000 RPM, so why would flooring it at 2000 RPM be worse?


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

Marty said:


> But the above dyno curve shows that the torque at 2000 RPM is actually less than at 5000 RPM, so why would flooring it at 2000 RPM be worse?


Load lugging. At 5000rpm the engine/clutch doesn't labour as much as from 2000rpm.

It's the same principle as to why the transporter van has the same clutch as the TTRS even though it has nowhere near the same torque. The transporter will be used for load lugging.


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## IPSA (Dec 25, 2011)

While total torque appears higher, the arc of the curve seems similar thus more torque at the top will not likely change perception of more lag at the bottom and well up the curve until the top of the old curve. Thus, I do not agree with the perception response. Let's see what others say as more v2's replace earlier v's.

Why would you post a dyno plot that gives info that is ..."deceivingly better than they actually are?" Eric's words not mine.

I am an APR supporter and so vote with my wallet. But when we experience issues and try to help APR, and ourselves at the same time of course, and we get answers like we have seen of late we (user option here) _______.

Most folks here have driven fast cars for some time and want faster cars, that is why we spend the $ we do and support co,s like APR. That is also why we spend time on the web and exchange ideas , thoughts and give co's like APR free feedback. WE are not experts but we are the reason you exist and we hope you remember that from time to time. Most of us are not here to throw grenades just to learn and consume. Help us to do so.

Look forward to Stage 3 and a lot less ink.


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## Optimus812 (May 5, 2012)

I have the updated stage II tune and it feels more powerful than the old version to me, especially between 3k and 5k rpm. I'm really liking it so far.


Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Poverty said:


> Load lugging. At 5000rpm the engine/clutch doesn't labour as much as from 2000rpm.
> 
> It's the same principle as to why the transporter van has the same clutch as the TTRS even though it has nowhere near the same torque. The transporter will be used for load lugging.


That doesn't make any sense to me. F = m*a.


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

IPSA said:


> Why would you post a dyno plot that gives info that is ..."deceivingly better than they actually are?" Eric's words not mine.


Maybe I should explain better... The original TTRS dyno plots we published (before i worked here) were from our Dynapack starting the run at 2k rpms. Because the turbo makes peak torque at 2500, the dyno loads the engine at 2k and the turbo is able to spool up and build quite a bit of boost. It makes the torque curve deceivingly good... Like its always 300+ and doesn't appear to ever "build up". If you start the dyno run at 1500rpms the turbo isn't in boost yet, and the dyno doesn't build boost on the engine like it would at 2k rpms. Ends up producing what looks like a "normal" dyno plot. I compared v1.0, v1.1, v1.2, and version v1.2lo against my calibration. I also benchmarked it against a competitors tune. Our published numbers are taken from my dyno tests done on our Dynapack Dyno. 

I'm not here to make fluff, just here to explain my method of comparing and measuring the engine's performance.

I will say that the stage 3 car has given me a tremendous advantage when it comes to the stg 1/2 cars. I'm happy to say that it improves ALL of APR tunes and that's not just limited to the TTRS.


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

Hopefully your working on the stronic and stage 3 ?
I know it's not available in the US,but I bet a stage 2 stronic will give any stage 3 car a run for it's money up to 120 mph.
A stage 3 stronic is going to hit 100 mph in well under 7 secs


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## IPSA (Dec 25, 2011)

Thanks for the clarification.

Is it fair to say there was no adjustment at the lower RPM range between the various versions?

If there is a difference can you tell us what it is, or at a minimum what the result should be.


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

Marty said:


> That doesn't make any sense to me. F = m*a.


Do you know how a mechanic will check a clutch for slippage?


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

exactly how some people seem to drive on here lol

if you have a 1.6-2.0 tdi wot


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

tdi-bart said:


> exactly how some people seem to drive on here lol
> 
> if you have a 1.6-2.0 tdi wot


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

IPSA said:


> Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> Is it fair to say there was no adjustment at the lower RPM range between the various versions?
> 
> If there is a difference can you tell us what it is, or at a minimum what the result should be.


Below 2500 rpms no... not really. There is a validated improvement that was made down there, but really shouldn't be that much different. There's not a lot of fruit to be had in that area from my dyno testing. 

Stronic question relating to the Stage 3. I believe I will be going to the UK soon for some ROW love. I have not put the 104 file on an S-tronic no... I would like to try


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

Can any one post a VAG COM scan with the new APR tune that shows the SN of the engine software ? Im considering stage 1 but want to see what the scan looks like . Below is my stock scan. thanks carl

Address 01: Engine (CEP) Labels: 07K-907-404-CEP.clb
Part No SW: 8J0 907 404 R HW: 8J0 907 404 M
Component: 2.5l R5/4V TFSI 0010
Revision: F7H07--- Serial number: AUX7Z0L9FNP08M
Coding: 0113000A180F0160
Shop #: WSC 01236 785 00200
VCID: 3C77EB437FF732F83D4


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

RTErnie said:


> Below 2500 rpms no... not really. There is a validated improvement that was made down there, but really shouldn't be that much different. There's not a lot of fruit to be had in that area from my dyno testing.
> 
> Stronic question relating to the Stage 3. I believe I will be going to the UK soon for some ROW love. I have not put the 104 file on an S-tronic no... I would like to try


Ooooohhh I'm guessing a frozen matte grey TTRS, a white TTRS and perhaps a Suzuka s-tronic


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

Wish it would be my Suzuka Grey Stronic.
I'll be in the UK next week hopefully for ten days.
Can't see how any tuned cars can be really tested in the UK,you need the German Autobahns to really put the cars to a test.I think that was proven when I first had the stage 2 map on my car a year ago.
I'm sure some gearbox mods would be needed on the stronic for stage 3,even if it's just software, raising hydraulic pressure ?


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

jaybyme said:


> Wish it would be my Suzuka Grey Stronic.
> I'll be in the UK next week hopefully for ten days.
> Can't see how any tuned cars can be really tested in the UK,you need the German Autobahns to really put the cars to a test.I think that was proven when I first had the stage 2 map on my car a year ago.
> I'm sure some gearbox mods would be needed on the stronic for stage 3,even if it's just software, raising hydraulic pressure ?


You dont need the autobahn, we have bruntignthorpe down the road, and a few of the forum users in the UK around london, go for hard 2-3 am runs, where they do as they please.


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

bet they don't get to rev hard in 5th,6th very often,or test the speed limiter repeatedly after a couple of thousand km
The Hockenheimring is just around the corner from me,but My car is not going to have much chance of getting above 250 km/h there,and not even gets into 6th
On the Autobahn,sometimes the car is at full power for minutes,not seconds
Maps can only be fault free,once they have been tested for thousands of miles on Autobahns imop


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

jaybyme said:


> bet they don't get to rev hard in 5th,6th very often,or test the speed limiter repeatedly after a couple of thousand km
> The Hockenheimring is just around the corner from me,but My car is not going to have much chance of getting above 250 km/h there,and not even gets into 6th
> On the Autobahn,sometimes the car is at full power for minutes,not seconds
> Maps can only be fault free,once they have been tested for thousands of miles on Autobahns imop


Actually they do it every weekend. Very active underground scene in around London where cars hit up to 200mph.

Because of some of these guys some of the well known tuners have had to revise their maps. If there is a issue, these hard drivers usually find it.


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## jibbed (Dec 3, 2011)

"allegedly" 



Poverty said:


> Actually they do it every weekend. Very active underground scene in around London where cars hit up to 200mph.
> 
> Because of some of these guys some of the well known tuners have had to revise their maps. If there is a issue, these hard drivers usually find it.


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

Mmmm,not exactly the same as testing on the autobahns though is it.
If I wanted to, just on a short daily commute I could accelerate up to 170 mph + 20 times ,which shows up most problems.
Now if you repeat that over months,and months,without problems,you can safely say a map is good.
I'll be back in the UK next week.With luck, I might be able to rev the car above 4000 rpm for a few seconds without having my picture taken or losing my license 
Mind you I always get very good MPG when I'm back home


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

guess what happened 

iI have the original apr file v1, no problems for a year, did many autobahn blasts only to constantly hit the speed limiter

yesterday finally ran into a gtr, a few pulls later car went into limp mode twice (overboost) code 

had to restart it driving 200 kph haha boost came back 

the only thing this time that was different then times before was that it was really hot out, +35

the log seems to indicate intake temp was +65 @ 245kph when the code triggered


```
1 Fault Found:

000564 - Boost Pressure Regulation 
               P0234 - 001 - Limit Exceeded (Overboost Condition) - Intermittent
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00100001
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 2
                    Mileage: 24603 km
                    Time Indication: 0
                    Date: 2013.07.28
                    Time: 19:27:56

             Freeze Frame:
                    RPM: 5739 /min
                    Load: 87.0 %
                    Speed: 245.0 km/h
                    Temperature: 95.0°C
                    Temperature: 63.0°C
                    Absolute Pres.: 1000.0 mbar
                    Voltage: 14.224 V
```


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

jaybyme said:


> Mmmm,not exactly the same as testing on the autobahns though is it.
> If I wanted to, just on a short daily commute I could accelerate up to 170 mph + 20 times ,which shows up most problems.
> Now if you repeat that over months,and months,without problems,you can safely say a map is good.
> I'll be back in the UK next week.With luck, I might be able to rev the car above 4000 rpm for a few seconds without having my picture taken or losing my license
> Mind you I always get very good MPG when I'm back home


170 plus daily isnt an issue in the UK if you know where to go. Heck the underground scence stipulates the rules for running is 40-160. They do it every weekend at the same place weather permitting. If theres speed cameras where you are trying to go fast then its deffo the wrong area to be speeding in the first place! The americans seem to do the same looking at their youtube videos.

I found if there is a problem with the map, it will rear its head pretty much in the first few days of hard driving.

I recall the time I got given a experimental map, car was tested by two others for a few days, I got it back 2 hours later I found a issue.

Or i dont remember if you recall on vagoc, I was constantly having issues with my revo map that others werent, turns out because they didnt drive theirs as hard so it never came up.

All allegedly ofcourse


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

The main problem that you can't find straight away,is the speed limiter coming back in.
Deactivating the speed limiter completely is still a problem for many tuners.
The other problems I had with my APR map were obvious after the first 30 miles,but they did get worse on long journeys.
On my trip back to Germany last year,I was going into limp mode virtually every time I wanted to accelerate.
On short journeys it didn't happen always,which was strange.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Speed limiter is easy. :thumbup:


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

it wasn't for you a year ago 
glad to know it's solved now though.
been trying to get in contact with Evan ?,is no one in the Uk at the moment.
Need to start testing your new cooler next week,if possible ?


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

jaybyme said:


> it wasn't for you a year ago
> glad to know it's solved now though.
> been trying to get in contact with Evan ?,is no one in the Uk at the moment.
> Need to start testing your new cooler next week,if possible ?


I think both Keith and Evan are out of the country. Apparently awesome GTI have one in stock? Reserve that one?


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

sent them an email.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

jaybyme said:


> it wasn't for you a year ago


Not quite. 

We raised the limiter like every other platform and it worked. However, there's something different about it on the TT RS, and I'm not going to openly discuss what that is. When I saw the first report of it not working, I asked engineering to look into it. I think it took under a day to figure out what was different before a change was made.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

i dunno about a day...


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## lpriley32 (Jul 28, 2012)

tdi-bart said:


> i dunno about a day...


maybe two weeks?


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## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

yeah,the way it came back in after so many miles or hours was quite strange.


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

wow! It is so awesome to see Brits and Europeans posting on the 'tex! One the most difficult parts of my job in the UK is chasing the dozens of forums you guys have with 10 active members each. Its so very good to have alot of people in one spot, cuts down on repetition and the he said, she said. 

Jay, get at me man. I need your car. Good stuff for you in return.


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## 311-in-337 (Feb 19, 2003)

APR, 

Did you get rid of the annoying rev-hang in 1st gear when going slow with your tune? 




Does anyone else find this extremely annoying? Why does it rev so slow unless you are going about 20mph or faster?


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

today I got v2, more info coming later today, but in summary I have dyno to backup my earlier Photoshop graphs

at least speed limiter is fixed I hit 308kph and I like the new rev limiter


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

OK

exactly 1 month ago i posted some pchopped graphs on page9 in this thread of the original apr stg1 (v1.1) vs v2.0, mr arin said they were wrong or something (different days, weather, rpms)? well today i confirmed via dyno, now before anyone mentions weather, strap downs, etc car was put on dyno, base was taken from the v1.1, CAR REMAINED ON DYNO, ecu pulled, flashed, dyno pulls for v2.0, plus a bunch of driving on the dyno in case of adaptation etc etc chart is below, bold lines are the new version

the only reason i got the flash because the speed limiter was annoying, otherwise i had no other problems

during dynoing v2, i noticed right away in the range 5-6k the rpms "slowed" down, the car sounded as though it could pull harder but it wasn't wanting to, then past 6k rpms started rising faster again

later went for a drive, i can feel less power in higher gears for the rpm range in question

i assume apr did this on purpose because of all the whiners saying it wasn't linear?? well its linear now but i have like 20hp less for 2k rpms... screw that

pros:
-better rev limiter
-no speed limiter
-more power at redline

cons:
-less power mid-range

don't cares:
-the torqs under 3k (i don't really get on the power until 3k)



this is what i would like to see and it will be perfect -> power from 4-6.5k rpm from the v1.1 file put into v2.0


tidbit: i was also shown dyno graphs from an rs3 at the facility, it had a similar "dip"


what have you got to say now apr? no excuses this time


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## OldKenzo (Aug 14, 2012)

tdi-bart said:


> OK
> 
> i assume apr did this on purpose because of all the whiners saying it wasn't linear?? well its linear now but i have like 20hp less for 2k rpms... screw that


Honestly I have to agree with you. After going from stage 2 “original” to the stage 2 “version 2.0” plus APR FMIC I feel the newly revised tune feels almost too linear. I miss the explosiveness of the older stage 2 and how it made the car feel more alive. Some of this may be due to slightly slower spooling due to having the larger FMIC now (the APR intercooler is HUGE), but the liveliness of the previous tune seems gone, especially in the mid range.


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

This is engine power or wheel ?


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

tdi-bart said:


> OK
> 
> exactly 1 month ago i posted some pchopped graphs on page9 in this thread of the original apr stg1 (v1.1) vs v2.0, mr arin said they were wrong or something (different days, weather, rpms)? well today i confirmed via dyno, now before anyone mentions weather, strap downs, etc car was put on dyno, base was taken from the v1.1, CAR REMAINED ON DYNO, ecu pulled, flashed, dyno pulls for v2.0, plus a bunch of driving on the dyno in case of adaptation etc etc chart is below, bold lines are the new version
> 
> ...


I'm working on it. I'll update you guys here when I have the smoking gun.


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

tdi-bart said:


> OK
> 
> 
> during dynoing v2, i noticed right away in the range 5-6k the rpms "slowed" down, the car sounded as though it could pull harder but it wasn't wanting to, then past 6k rpms started rising faster again
> ...




This sounds exactly like the problems I have had with my power drop-off after hitting 4k RPM's. Sean at APR has been working on the issue but we still do not have any definitive answers. His theory for my situation was the oil leakage from the PCV in to the intake "watering down" the octane of our already poor quality gasoline in California causing the knock sensor to cut boost to save engine damage.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

I don't think the graph is being read correctly. 

The crank comparison should be *thrown out*. Look at the green lines at the bottom. This is drivetrain loss in HP across the entire run. It's estimated during a roll down test on this type of dyno. The figures should be IDENTICAL, however one is higher than the other, which is impossible. It's the same car, same day, same dyno, just hours apart with different tunes. So either the vehicles tie down strap resistance changed or something was dragging during one of the roll down tests, causing more resistance and higher 'loss' figures. If the strap tie downs changes, that could very well account for the sudden loss of power on the after dyno. That may be all we are seeing. 

So, with that said, here's the WHP vs WHP graphs. 

As you can see, the new file spools WAY faster and makes more top end power. In the midrange, there is a point where the older figures are higher. This could be from IAT's (Something you'll battle more on the dyno than the road) due to the new cal producing more power earlier, but without more data it's difficult to see why. 










I just wanted to clear that up.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

sent rternie PM with some logs, if apr wants me to do some more detailed logging no problem let me know 

re: the rundown line the operator says he never seen that spike happen before you can see early on, i don't know

also a couple times during the dyno run i observed some black smoke at 4k rpm exactly, a quick puff, what does that mean? knocking? we did a bunch of runs, once the IAT got up to 90C, so we setup 3 jet fans and used a lot of water to cool the car down to 35-40C, and ran again


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Is the gain in power at the top end mostly attributed to the change in redline behavior? If so I'd love to get a stock map with that changed, that's a decent chunk of power left on the table!


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

this would be nice... :thumbup:


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

here's another person just dynoed in the uk, you can really see their power dip in their graph...

http://www.vagoc.co.uk/vb/showthread.php?t=13397


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

tdi-bart said:


> here's another person just dynoed in the uk, you can really see their power dip in their graph...
> 
> http://www.vagoc.co.uk/vb/showthread.php?t=13397


yes it is clear there is an issue... I wonder what is different with the others that have the APR tune and do not experience this same drop-off??


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

With either of the tune versions, until you test them on the road with a vbox or something you will never know which is actually faster.

My question is: how come your dyno figure (~ 280 whp) is so much different from the dyno figures provided by APR (~380 whp)?

http://i1244.photobucket.com/albums/gg580/Ciprian_Chete/Untitled-1_zps48536e97.jpg

I know that different dyno's give different figures but in this case it's a huge difference! So far, on the same dyno different software's gave similar results EXCEPT when APR tested their software against competitors one!

The cars (DSG with MRC and APR) tested on the 30-130 event in UK ended with a similar time (the MRC being actually faster).

I'm not saying that APR is worse or better than the others but I'm intrigued by how APR IS STATING THEIR MAP IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN THE COMPETITORS MAP.

I think that WE (the end buyers that pay with REAL money for all the parts and software) deserve to get the REAL figures related to a product (be it APR / REVO / GIAC / MRC ...) --> When we will pay with "false money" the product may be advertised with "false figures" !!! 

Just my .2 cents.


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## lpriley32 (Jul 28, 2012)

280 whp sounds below what stock would even be at the wheels.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

i'm not concerned with the 280whp figure, who knows it might be reading 20-40hp lower, i am just interested in the deltas from one version to the other

on v1.1 i was faster than a panamera turbo so its not bad for "280whp" lol


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

280 whp is a bit more than stock whp and if the dyno reads low there is nothing to worry about. The other figure I don't know where it came.

Back on topic: You have to test the car on the road with both maps because when the engine gets the real air + encounters the real road / wind / own weight resistance + heats up while revving in few consecutive gears the things may be different --> at this point you can't tell if one map is faster than the other and you can't tell if "tweaking" one map will get the torque/power curve you desire as more power at XX rpm ==> more heat ==> and then less power at YY rpm.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

Eric and I took a trip yesterday to work on this. We're not complete, but we're making progress.

Any of you that have experienced it, can you please PM me your VINs? I want to see if there is a pattern in which flashes are affected.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

a couple more observations after driving tonight on a rather chilly summer night (16C)

the turbo spool is definitely faster, very good

the 5k range is not as strong as it was before, its almost like a micro-limiter coming on, thats the best way i can describe it, feels that way too, in 3rd gear or higher to notice

so far i did some vcds logging 80-120kph range in 3rd gear, i get 2.4s, i will do some higher ranges in a single gear for a more accurate reading of power to compare against any future updates or just other people, say 5th gear from 3k-7k etc

anyway, once apr does a ctrl-c & ctrl-v between files then :laugh: :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

lpriley32 said:


> 280 whp sounds below what stock would even be at the wheels.


It's a MAHA. The results at the wheels don't typically match what we see to the wheels in the US on other dyno types. 

Look at MTM for example. It's uncommon to see one of their graphs displaying 240 HP at redline which somehow translates to almost 500 HP at the crank. Example, click me


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

always wondered what audi themselves pushed this motor to with just software, vln is 380hp, i'm sure they know all the tricks to make it run right with lots of power, 450 maybe?


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

tdi-bart said:


> a couple more observations after driving tonight on a rather chilly summer night (16C)
> 
> the turbo spool is definitely faster, very good
> 
> ...


There are two issues. One is actual lambda going excessively rich... Far below the target. Car will richen up to .68 lambda. This is the minor (20hp) power loss or (linear power complaint). We have verified the fix on this. 

The second issue is related to plausibility and diagnoses checks that fail and request zero wastegate duty cycle (no boost). We thought we had this fixed during our trip... However the customer reported having the same issue again. 

We are still working to fix the last issue. Luckily some of these issues we have already seen in our stage 3 calibration work, so expect many improvements over the next few months... Including LC and Gear cut (wot shifting). 

As Sean stated please send your VIN to Sean if you're having an issue. Please also include any extra information related to your car or what problems you've experienced. We really want to get this perfect for you guys and I apologize for the issues, please know we are working on this issue diligently. 

-Eric Urness


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## IPSA (Dec 25, 2011)

Does this mean we will have a new version and need to flash again?


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## OldKenzo (Aug 14, 2012)

RTErnie said:


> There are two issues. One is actual lambda going excessively rich... Far below the target. Car will richen up to .68 lambda. This is the minor (20hp) power loss or (linear power complaint). We have verified the fix on this.
> 
> As Sean stated please send your VIN to Sean if you're having an issue. Please also include any extra information related to your car or what problems you've experienced. We really want to get this perfect for you guys and I apologize for the issues, please know we are working on this issue diligently.
> 
> -Eric Urness


Great to see you guys are on top of this! I sent Sean my VIN too. :thumbup:


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## OldKenzo (Aug 14, 2012)

IPSA said:


> Does this mean we will have a new version and need to flash again?


Well the car aint gonna flash itself. Some day perhaps we’ll get over-the-air flash updates via our phones or computers. Wouldn’t that be sweet


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

IPSA said:


> Does this mean we will have a new version and need to flash again?


If you're having the issue, yes. But, this isn't just a minor reduction in "power". What some people are seeing is just the turbo running out of breath at higher RPM. That's normal. Boost should taper from 5k on with the stock turbo.

This issue happens at lower RPM (3.5-4k) and it's much more noticeable. If the car feels like you completely released the throttle over 4k, you're having it. If it feels like it was let up a bit around 5k, that's normal and a result of the size of the turbo.


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## IPSA (Dec 25, 2011)

I have no issues in the 4k range.
However I have the IC which may mask a problem if it is charge temp related.

I had no issues with V1 either. 

Please keep us advised on whether we should re-flash and when.


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## IPSA (Dec 25, 2011)

I have also noticed of late after driving for a while the RPM's at idle are around 1100. If I turn the car off and restart they fall to std =900.

Doing it regularly now. Did not at first. Had IC installed at same time.

Thoughts ?


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> If you're having the issue, yes. But, this isn't just a minor reduction in "power". What some people are seeing is just the turbo running out of breath at higher RPM. That's normal. Boost should taper from 5k on with the stock turbo.
> 
> This issue happens at lower RPM (3.5-4k) and it's much more noticeable. If the car feels like you completely released the throttle over 4k, you're having it. If it feels like it was let up a bit around 5k, that's normal and a result of the size of the turbo.


what is happening is between 4.5-6k the car starts shaking mmmmmm kay, give it a shot in 6th gear


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## OldKenzo (Aug 14, 2012)

tdi-bart said:


> what is happening is between 4.5-6k the car starts shaking mmmmmm kay, give it a shot in 6th gear


Yesterday while going WOT at around 2800 RPM in 6th, I watched my boost quickly spool to 20 PSI, then quickly snap down to 8 PSI and the car felt completely deflated. I reproduced this twice in 6th gear, but not in 5th. Similar?


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

i did some extensive logging tonight, i dont have any boost problems, my problem is what rternie said and that its running too rich, between him, arin and sean he is the only one that is making sense to me haha its not weak turbo, or oil in your intake, or bad gas, or high IAT, etc etc

but i rarely if at all max the gas in the 2k range, only in 1st, 2nd gear maybe 3rd, otherwise i keep it above 3k for wot, did do it tonight for logging purposes in 5th gear, haven't tried 6th

did you have to restart your car to fix your turbo? that is limp mode usually happens if you underboost or overboost, it happened to me on v1.1 two times only on the same day i was racing a GTR and it was like +36C outside, otherwise it never ever happened, and it was high rpm range not 2k


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## jibbed (Dec 3, 2011)

I get that consistently on my car... Problem is it's difficult to reproduce, as it only does it at the top of 4th (either when you hit the limiter, or shift to 5th just before the limiter).

So I can't just go out for a drive (without risking going to jail) to log it. Only happens at a racetrack obviously 



tdi-bart said:


> did you have to restart your car to fix your turbo? that is limp mode usually happens if you underboost or overboost, it happened to me on v1.1 two times only on the same day i was racing a GTR and it was like +36C outside, otherwise it never ever happened, and it was high rpm range not 2k


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

tdi-bart said:


> i did some extensive logging tonight, i dont have any boost problems, my problem is what rternie said and that its running too rich, between him, arin and sean he is the only one that is making sense to me haha its not weak turbo, or oil in your intake, or bad gas, or high IAT, etc etc
> 
> but i rarely if at all max the gas in the 2k range, only in 1st, 2nd gear maybe 3rd, otherwise i keep it above 3k for wot, did do it tonight for logging purposes in 5th gear, haven't tried 6th
> 
> did you have to restart your car to fix your turbo? that is limp mode usually happens if you underboost or overboost, it happened to me on v1.1 two times only on the same day i was racing a GTR and it was like +36C outside, otherwise it never ever happened, and it was high rpm range not 2k


My goal was just to collect data points for Eric (RTErnie) and relay something that we'd seen before. He's the calibrator for this, I just write the code. 

After our Friday trip, we're sure that the oil thing is not the issue. It does happen and it's something to be cognizant of, but it's not the cause of this. We'll make more updates when we have it completely figured out.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

jibbed said:


> I get that consistently on my car... Problem is it's difficult to reproduce, as it only does it at the top of 4th (either when you hit the limiter, or shift to 5th just before the limiter).
> 
> So I can't just go out for a drive (without risking going to jail) to log it. Only happens at a racetrack obviously


in Australia if you hit limiter in 2nd you goto jail lol 

where I live you can be going vmax no matter what speed limit you have and the max fine is $150, no suspension, life is good haha


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> After our Friday trip, we're sure that the oil thing is not the issue. It does happen and it's something to be cognizant of, but it's not the cause of this.


This is great news.:thumbup:


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> After our Friday trip, we're sure that the oil thing is not the issue. It does happen and it's something to be cognizant of, but it's not the cause of this. We'll make more updates when we have it completely figured out.


yes, good thing that it is not the oil thing. My issue starts with heavy acceleration above 4k RPM
sent my Vin #


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

Regarding the Oil "thing": LOL

Even if the car would loose 1L of oil at 2000Km (which actually doesn't happen) and if that entire 1 L is thrown through the intake (and none is lost elsewhere) the Ron figure of the fuel will be decreased with maximum 0.2 (basically 98 Ron will become 97.8 Ron)


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

cipsony said:


> Regarding the Oil "thing": LOL
> 
> Even if the car would loose 1L of oil at 2000Km (which actually doesn't happen) and if that entire 1 L is thrown through the intake (and none is lost elsewhere) the Ron figure of the fuel will be decreased with maximum 0.2 (basically 98 Ron will become 97.8 Ron)


The issue we relayed is what it is. A highly tracked vehicle with high miles on an old batch of oil was achieving very little ignition advance, even with stock software. Running race fuel corrected the problem indicating the issue was related to octane and further backed that theory once returning to 93 octane as the poor advance continued. The problem was finally rectified once the oil was completely changed. 

Again, this was on completely stock software and modified software.


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

It is a higher possibility that you just fueled the car with a bad quality fuel. Sometimes even the same rated fuel from the same refinery is different from one batch to another.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

its not fuel, because i had the same fuel in my tank on the dyno

like i said before, its not oil in the intake, high air intakes, weak turbo, or whatever funny nonsense lol

it might be high egt or knocking, those are just my guess why its happening i dont know, faster turbo spool requires more fuel? so maybe now we have a side effect as a result, i am curious to hear what the real reason was


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

cipsony said:


> It is a higher possibility that you just fueled the car with a bad quality fuel. Sometimes even the same rated fuel from the same refinery is different from one batch to another.


That wasn't the case. This was on multiple occasions, multiple dates, multiple gas stations, multiple locations.


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## jibbed (Dec 3, 2011)

LOL - True 



tdi-bart said:


> in Australia if you hit limiter in 2nd you goto jail lol
> 
> where I live you can be going vmax no matter what speed limit you have and the max fine is $150, no suspension, life is good haha


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

updatessssssss plz

care to share why the afr was off?


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

tdi-bart said:


> updatessssssss plz
> 
> care to share why the afr was off?


Still working on it. We've got more answers and we're testing the fixes. We've contacted a few customers to test the fix. I'll let you know more when we do.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

am I gonna damage the motor blasting away at 180mph for extended periods until the fix is out?


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

tdi-bart said:


> am I gonna damage the motor blasting away at 180mph for extended periods until the fix is out?


Running no boost certainly won't damage the engine  

We have a fix file available for s1/s2 customers experiencing these issues. It's available at your APR dealer now. :thumbup:


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## jibbed (Dec 3, 2011)

Any luck for us aussies?



RTErnie said:


> Running no boost certainly won't damage the engine
> 
> We have a fix file available for s1/s2 customers experiencing these issues. It's available at your APR dealer now. :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

jibbed said:


> Any luck for us aussies?


RTErnie is in the UK right now finishing testing on ROW TT-RS software.


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

Any update on when we may get switching?


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## jibbed (Dec 3, 2011)

Awesome - thanks for the reply Sean!



[email protected] said:


> RTErnie is in the UK right now finishing testing on ROW TT-RS software.


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

RTErnie said:


> Running no boost certainly won't damage the engine
> 
> We have a fix file available for s1/s2 customers experiencing these issues. It's available at your APR dealer now. :thumbup:


so what was the issue that caused the boost cut?


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

psabo said:


> so what was the issue that caused the boost cut?


On the North American TT-RS, there are two "boxcodes", or ECU part numbers. They have basically the same stuff in them, but it's in slightly different locations. Our normal procedure is to tune one and copy/paste into the other boxcodes.

99.9% of the time that works flawlessly.

Unfortunately, on the TT-RS, our binary creation software made a mistake when creating the R boxcode software. All of our test cars were Q boxcode, so we never encountered the problem here.

The variable that got misplaced was "Map Sensor Plausibility Limit". The stock limit is lower than the amount of boost we request, so we turn this value up. Unfortunately, in the R boxcode file, we changed it, but since our layout was wrong for that variable, our change didn't actually do what it should have done.

So, when a car would generate enough boost, it would hit the plausibility limit and the ECU would turn boost completely off thinking that the map sensor failed. After a key cycle, it would reset.

Eric and I flew to Florida and tested on a car there. We duplicated the problem, verified the calibration value and made a few other changes that Eric thought might work. On the way back from Florida, we got a message from the customer that it was harder to do, but still possible to get it to cut. I chewed on it a bit and figured the only remaining possibility was that our layout was wrong. I had one of my guys (the guy that builds our layout files) go over it by hand and he found the mistake. We fixed the layout, changed the plausibility limit and we're golden.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

croman44 said:


> Any update on when we may get switching?


It works on the Bench, but I need a car to test on and don't have one I can use at the moment. I'll get it out soon.


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

Super impressed by the customer focus and diligence APR is displaying right now relative to this "prickly" issue. Great work by the whole team!


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Black BeauTTy said:


> Super impressed by the customer focus and diligence APR is displaying right now relative to this "prickly" issue. Great work by the whole team!


Agreed. The technical details that show the fixes aren't voodoo are great.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

ok, i can report power is back, i have the Q ecu, so i never had boost cut problem, but the linear feeling mid range lack of v1.1 power, well its back 

the version number hasnt changed, its still 2.0, had to pull the ecu out though, was unable to port flash, so something to consider before you go in until apr update their PC software

i was unable to dyno, there were some problems with a roller

it is faster though, 50-75mph before was 2.4s, now its 2.3s

i am now happy, dont plan on any more flashing unless someone else finds major bugs, not interested in the program switching just yet personally

thanks apr :thumbup:

now for before and after afr graphs


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Excellent! : ) :thumbup:


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## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

:thumbup:
Glad it's back!

Got our first chill day here in a while 65 and in the 50's tonight.
Car feels insane in these temps with the WMI, good riddance summer, bring on the fall boost weather!


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## jibbed (Dec 3, 2011)

Awesome work APR.

Love that you're providing insights into just how tricky this stuff is and am itching to get the new stage 2 into mine.


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

jibbed said:


> Awesome work APR.
> 
> Love that you're providing insights into just how tricky this stuff is and am itching to get the new stage 2 into mine.


I'm still in the UK, but I got the chance to spend more time looking at the over fueling phenomenom. I knew how to fix it, but wasn't sure what caused it. I was lucky enough to have a customer from London come up to APR UK and let me figure it out last night. It appears to be another intentionally calibrated trap for people re-mapping/flashing TTRS's. Without giving it away to the competition, rest assured our files will never suffer from that issue again :thumbup:

Jonny Cocker's Stage 3 TTRS at Bruntingthorp Airfield.... 
https://www.facebook.com/video/embed?video_id=10151822835569464


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

RTErnie said:


> Jonny Cocker's Stage 3 TTRS at Bruntingthorp Airfield....
> https://www.facebook.com/video/embed?video_id=10151822835569464


That is SICK.


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## jibbed (Dec 3, 2011)

RTErnie said:


> I'm still in the UK, but I got the chance to spend more time looking at the over fueling phenomenom. I knew how to fix it, but wasn't sure what caused it. I was lucky enough to have a customer from London come up to APR UK and let me figure it out last night. It appears to be another intentionally calibrated trap for people re-mapping/flashing TTRS's. Without giving it away to the competition, rest assured our files will never suffer from that issue again :thumbup:


Very excellent - I'm eagerly awaiting the update. I know you guys don't like giving out dates, but I've got another track day at the end of the month (28th)... What are the chances your ROW update will be out by then?

Cheers,
matt


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

jibbed said:


> Very excellent - I'm eagerly awaiting the update. I know you guys don't like giving out dates, but I've got another track day at the end of the month (28th)... What are the chances your ROW update will be out by then?
> 
> Cheers,
> matt


I'll make it a priority to get the ball rolling on Monday. ROW requires some beta testing due to the massive number of box codes for ROW. Send me your VIN and we can have you beta test the new file. Thank you


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## Timster (May 23, 2012)

so, when I get my updated stage I do I need to know what boxcode my ECU is before flashng? Also, does the ECU need to be taken out or can it be flashed while still in the car? 

Also, what's a fair price to get the tune updated? I know the software upgrade is free, just wondering about installation.


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## cornike (Jul 14, 2013)

*APR Stage 1*

So APR, I got my Stage 1, v 1.1, upgrade last month by Goodspeed in Phoenix. Based on this recent thread, how is one to know what ECU type one has and whether or not a future upgrade of the flash is necessary? And if one will be, will this be covered by APR?


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## jibbed (Dec 3, 2011)

Excellent - sounds good.

You've got PM.



RTErnie said:


> I'll make it a priority to get the ball rolling on Monday. ROW requires some beta testing due to the massive number of box codes for ROW. Send me your VIN and we can have you beta test the new file. Thank you


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

Timster said:


> so, when I get my updated stage I do I need to know what boxcode my ECU is before flashng? Also, does the ECU need to be taken out or can it be flashed while still in the car?
> 
> Also, what's a fair price to get the tune updated? I know the software upgrade is free, just wondering about installation.


Q is fixed, don't know about R

as for the labor, i think its just up to the shop, whatever they decide to charge for labor, or you can try taking it out yourself and driving it over, or just wait until apr update their PC software


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

cornike said:


> So APR, I got my Stage 1, v 1.1, upgrade last month by Goodspeed in Phoenix. Based on this recent thread, how is one to know what ECU type one has and whether or not a future upgrade of the flash is necessary? And if one will be, will this be covered by APR?


If you've got 1.1, you should certainly go for the update. V2.0 is a noticeable improvement.

As to the R boxcode thing, that didn't apply to V1.1, only V2.0.

If you have a VCDS, you can check your boxcode with that or you can PM your VIN to any of us @apr and we'll check it for you.

Our updates are always free. Some of the dealers charge labor for the flash, we can't control that.


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## cornike (Jul 14, 2013)

*APR Stage 1*

HI Sean, thanks for your response. I believe I have V2, not 1.1. As I stated I just got the upgrade last month at Goodspeed in Phoenix. 

If you could let me know if my ECU is of the type referenced in this thread and thus in need of an update I would appreciate it.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

cornike said:


> If you could let me know if my ECU is of the type referenced in this thread and thus in need of an update I would appreciate it.


You have the R box code and v2.0. You can get the update just made the other day. I'd remove your vin from the thread. :thumbup:


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## Vexige (May 28, 2013)

Arin,

I emailed you my VIN. Please let me know if I need an update, mine was done ~one month ago
Thanks,

Isaak


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## OldKenzo (Aug 14, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> You have the R box code and v2.0. You can get the update just made the other day. I'd remove your vin from the thread. :thumbup:


Thanks for the info APR folks! VCDS says I’ve got an R box code on my stage 2 v2.0. I’ll be making a trip back to 034 as soon as you guys roll out program switching


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## Vexige (May 28, 2013)

Arin,

You have another PM. I think I misspelled (missed 2) in my VIN.

Thank you


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

OldKenzo said:


> Thanks for the info APR folks! VCDS says I’ve got an R box code on my stage 2 v2.0. I’ll be making a trip back to 034 as soon as you guys roll out program switching


Please release program switching!


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

Marty said:


> Please release program shipping!


Working on it.


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## Timster (May 23, 2012)

Arin, your IM inbox if full. Please delete some IMs so i can send you my vin.

Thanks


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

I am getting re-flashed today at 034 Motorsports!!!!


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## TunaTT (Oct 25, 2010)

psabo said:


> I am getting re-flashed today at 034 Motorsports!!!!


Interested in how the re-flash went? 
I've been holding off until it looks like the challenges with tuning the RS is figured out. I was looking at 034 Motorsports for both their down pipe and having them do the APR Flash as I'm also here in the bay area. Your thoughts on their shop and service would be appreciated.


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## OldKenzo (Aug 14, 2012)

TunaTT said:


> Interested in how the re-flash went?
> I've been holding off until it looks like the challenges with tuning the RS is figured out. I was looking at 034 Motorsports for both their down pipe and having them do the APR Flash as I'm also here in the bay area. Your thoughts on their shop and service would be appreciated.


I’ve been taking my TT-RS to 034 Motorsports since day one, and have had nothing but stellar service. Given they even fabricate their own TT-RS parts you are going to be hard pressed to find a more qualified shop


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

TunaTT said:


> Interested in how the re-flash went?
> I've been holding off until it looks like the challenges with tuning the RS is figured out. I was looking at 034 Motorsports for both their down pipe and having them do the APR Flash as I'm also here in the bay area. Your thoughts on their shop and service would be appreciated.


The re-flash went great, no issues at all. As far as 034 goes, the shop is top in my view; Everyone I have dealt with there has been extremely knowledgeable, helpful and great to deal with. Also, 034 has modified several TTRS's and they really know the car. I felt great knowing that they have worked on several TTRS's since it is a rare car. You cannot pick a better shop for your TTRS in my view.

The downpipe really looks interesting as well. I talked to them about it a bit yesterday and it looks like a great upgrade.


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## smack_ttrs (Mar 24, 2013)

i too highly recommend 034 motorsports. i've known javad and christian for many years and they are both great guys and the shop does excellent work.


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## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

psabo said:


> The downpipe really looks interesting as well. I talked to them about it a bit yesterday and it looks like a great upgrade.



I was one of the early adopters of the 034 downpipe, and can say it takes up every available bit of space. Never will you question if your downpipe is big enough... It seems to retain a certain character in the exhaust that gets lost when you go to a single pipe. I run the 034 Downpipe w/ Mid Cat Deletes & Factory "sport" exhaust. Sounds amazing!


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## TunaTT (Oct 25, 2010)

OldKenzo said:


> I’ve been taking my TT-RS to 034 Motorsports since day one, and have had nothing but stellar service. Given they even fabricate their own TT-RS parts you are going to be hard pressed to find a more qualified shop


I have heard good things about them, thanks for the feed back.


psabo said:


> The re-flash went great, no issues at all. As far as 034 goes, the shop is top in my view; Everyone I have dealt with there has been extremely knowledgeable, helpful and great to deal with. Also, 034 has modified several TTRS's and they really know the car. I felt great knowing that they have worked on several TTRS's since it is a rare car. You cannot pick a better shop for your TTRS in my view.
> Nice to hear that the re-flash went well, I'm realy close to pulling the trigger.
> The downpipe really looks interesting as well. I talked to them about it a bit yesterday and it looks like a great upgrade.


I like the looks of thir DP. 


smack_ttrs said:


> i too highly recommend 034 motorsports. i've known javad and christian for many years and they are both great guys and the shop does excellent work.


Thanks for the feed back, I stopped by their open house that they had a few weeks back and the couple of guy I talked to were very knowledgeable. I also like the fact that thie have a "Shop" TTRS that they have used for parts development and testing. 


joneze93tsi said:


> I was one of the early adopters of the 034 downpipe, and can say it takes up every available bit of space. Never will you question if your downpipe is big enough... It seems to retain a certain character in the exhaust that gets lost when you go to a single pipe. I run the 034 Downpipe w/ Mid Cat Deletes & Factory "sport" exhaust. Sounds amazing!


Your set up is what one of the options I'm concidering, the other would be to run their DP but leave the mid cats? Would love to hear the set up you are running in person. I could always put the mid cat pipes back on the car if it was a little too loud


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

joneze93tsi said:


> I was one of the early adopters of the 034 downpipe, and can say it takes up every available bit of space. Never will you question if your downpipe is big enough... It seems to retain a certain character in the exhaust that gets lost when you go to a single pipe. I run the 034 Downpipe w/ Mid Cat Deletes & Factory "sport" exhaust. Sounds amazing!


It sounds even meaner with the Borla cat back + 034 DP! With dual pipes all the way back from the DP, it lets through the 5 cylinder sound through loud and clear. I have had this setup since May of this year and still love the sound every time that I drive the car!


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## cornike (Jul 14, 2013)

*V 2.1 update*

Sean, Had Goodspeed do the ECU update V2.1 yesterday. Significantly noticeable difference in the power band and had no idea what I was missing in the V2. Much smoother power band all the way up to 6000 where before there was a much reduced response. Thank you for identifying this issue and making the update available so quickly.


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## as350 (Nov 8, 2011)

hightechrdn said:


> It sounds even meaner with the Borla cat back + 034 DP! With dual pipes all the way back from the DP, it lets through the 5 cylinder sound through loud and clear. I have had this setup since May of this year and still love the sound every time that I drive the car!


I currently have the Borla cat back and 034 straight pipes. The sound is great. I have a 034 DP ready to go on as well but am a bit concerned that it'll end up being too much. Do you have any experience with the change in volume going from OEM DP and straight pipes + Borla to your current setup?


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

034 is one of our top dealers. Excellent service. :thumbup:


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

as350 said:


> I currently have the Borla cat back and 034 straight pipes. The sound is great. I have a 034 DP ready to go on as well but am a bit concerned that it'll end up being too much. Do you have any experience with the change in volume going from OEM DP and straight pipes + Borla to your current setup?


Sorry, I went from the OEM sport exhaust to the full DP-mid pipes-cat back all at once.

The full combo is louder than stock, but it isn't loud like a small block chevy with glass pack mufflers or a ricey import with a fart can exhaust tip 

Inside the car, the combo is noticeable, but doesn't drone or make it so you have to raise your voice to talk. With the windows up and AC going, you can hear the exhaust in the background more than OEM. However, I can still use the handsfree calling through the OEM headunit to make calls.

Outside the car, people will notice when you drive by, but I haven't been hassled by local law enforcement. I do make a point to keep the revs down, which greatly reduces the volume. I have no issues making an order at a drive through window, if that helps give you an idea that the volume at idle is reasonable. Cold starts are a different matter though. The car sounds 2x as loud for the first 1-2 minutes before the idle is brought down and the ECU stops the double fuel injection pulses. 

The exhaust is a thing of beauty in parking garages and tunnels. Driving on the open road, the quality of the exhaust note is fantastic.


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## 311-in-337 (Feb 19, 2003)

hightechrdn said:


> Sorry, I went from the OEM sport exhaust to the full DP-mid pipes-cat back all at once.
> 
> The full combo is louder than stock, but it isn't loud like a small block chevy with glass pack mufflers or a ricey import with a fart can exhaust tip
> 
> ...



I agree with hightechrdn on many accounts. :wave:

However, this just goes to show how "sound" and what is considered "loud" is subjective.

I have the Borla catback, and installed the AWE catless midpipes to go with the stock DP. I was shocked how loud this setup was...like to the point of embarrassed during morning cold start-ups. But you have to understand, I'm relatively young (32  ), and like my cars to have an aggressive sound. I even like to use it as a weapon when passing slow moving crotch-starrers to give them a wake-up call. But the Borla/cattless mids/stock DP was still too loud.

So I reinstalled the stock mids, and took the AWE mids to my buddys shop to have some resonators installed. NIGHT and DAY difference with the resonators installed. It smoothed out the tone a bit, while leaving the beautiful aggressive 5-cyl sound that the Borla enhances.

Now I am not afraid to put on a 034 Motorsport DP. Just gotta save some $$$ first.


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## as350 (Nov 8, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback. I have come to enjoy my current setup of straight pipes plus Borla cat-back. It sounds like adding a 034 DP isn't going to increase the already significant sound signature by much.


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## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

hightechrdn said:


> Sorry, I went from the OEM sport exhaust to the full DP-mid pipes-cat back all at once.
> 
> The full combo is louder than stock, but it isn't loud like a small block chevy with glass pack mufflers or a ricey import with a fart can exhaust tip
> 
> ...


So, how much does the full system help with turbo spool up and response time? Is it a little better or A LOT better?

I am thinking about going with an APR Stage 2 with the full turbo back exhaust.


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

FYI, 
Version 2.1 is available for all box codes in NA. If you're ROW(rest of (the)world), the new version is available. Please PM me your VIN (row only) to check that we have your specific binary available on the server. 

V2.1 is very similar to v2.0, but better. . 

Thank you guys again! Keep an eye out for our carbon-carbon twin plate clutch! It's built to impress. We'll be doing some 1.5x 60' testing with it soon.


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## TunaTT (Oct 25, 2010)

RTErnie said:


> FYI,
> Version 2.1 is available for all box codes in NA. If you're ROW(rest of (the)world), the new version is available. Please PM me your VIN (row only) to check that we have your specific binary available on the server.
> 
> V2.1 is very similar to v2.0, but better. .
> ...


I am really close to doing a stage 1 but will probably go right to stage 2, I know you guy's have been working on program switching and I would rather not have to go back to be reflashed, could you update on your progress. Thank you.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

TunaTT said:


> I am really close to doing a stage 1 but will probably go right to stage 2, I know you guy's have been working on program switching and I would rather not have to go back to be reflashed, could you update on your progress. Thank you.


Switching works on the bench, but I've had a bit of trouble lately getting the car testing done. When I have the time to work on it, I've not had a car available. When I've had a car available, I've not had the time.

With any luck, in the next day or two, I should have both and am going to try to get it wrapped up.


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## TunaTT (Oct 25, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Switching works on the bench, but I've had a bit of trouble lately getting the car testing done. When I have the time to work on it, I've not had a car available. When I've had a car available, I've not had the time.
> 
> With any luck, in the next day or two, I should have both and am going to try to get it wrapped up.


Sounds great, looking forward to adding a little additional power. Thoughts on Stage 1 vs. going straight to Stage 2 and have you found an additional benefits to adding the HPFP to Stage 2? Thanks again.


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## jibbed (Dec 3, 2011)

G'day RTErnie, thanks excellent news. I PM'd you my VIN the other week. Are you able to confirm whether the binary is available for my car please?

Thanks!
matt



RTErnie said:


> FYI,
> Version 2.1 is available for all box codes in NA. If you're ROW(rest of (the)world), the new version is available. Please PM me your VIN (row only) to check that we have your specific binary available on the server.
> 
> V2.1 is very similar to v2.0, but better. .
> ...


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## TunaTT (Oct 25, 2010)

joneze93tsi said:


> I was one of the early adopters of the 034 downpipe, and can say it takes up every available bit of space. Never will you question if your downpipe is big enough... It seems to retain a certain character in the exhaust that gets lost when you go to a single pipe. I run the 034 Downpipe w/ Mid Cat Deletes & Factory "sport" exhaust. Sounds amazing!


Your set up is what one of the options I'm concidering, the other would be to run their DP but leave the mid cats? Would love to hear the set up you are running in person. I could always put the mid cat pipes back on the car if it was a little too loud.

Another thought / Question: 
I was looking at RS Worx Stage 3 build thread and one of the things they said was the the factory DP inlet is 5 inches and looking at the pictures it looks like gutting the Factory DP might be a great option as it looks like it splits at a point where it is still 5" or at least vary close to that. Has anyone gone this route? and or is there better gains to be achived with sticking with my first choice of the 034 DP? Any feedback would be appreciated.


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## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

TunaTT said:


> Your set up is what one of the options I'm concidering, the other would be to run their DP but leave the mid cats? Would love to hear the set up you are running in person. I could always put the mid cat pipes back on the car if it was a little too loud.
> 
> Another thought / Question:
> I was looking at RS Worx Stage 3 build thread and one of the things they said was the the factory DP inlet is 5 inches and looking at the pictures it looks like gutting the Factory DP might be a great option as it looks like it splits at a point where it is still 5" or at least vary close to that. Has anyone gone this route? and or is there better gains to be achived with sticking with my first choice of the 034 DP? Any feedback would be appreciated.


A gutted stock pipe is a viable option certainly.
But if you are going through all that work, the 034 secondary pipes are massively larger than the stock pipes. I don't have a side by side, but when I had them both out, it was huge. The 034 pipe also stays at 4"+ much longer than the stock pipe.


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## TunaTT (Oct 25, 2010)

joneze93tsi said:


> A gutted stock pipe is a viable option certainly.
> But if you are going through all that work, the 034 secondary pipes are massively larger than the stock pipes. I don't have a side by side, but when I had them both out, it was huge. The 034 pipe also stays at 4"+ much longer than the stock pipe.


Appreciate the feed back. Talked to 034 today. Just need to give APR time to make their switching stage 2 available and I ready to go.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

RTErnie said:


> V2.1 is very similar to v2.0, but better. .


how so?

and question, if i have 93 prog, and put in 95 will the soft give me a bit more oooomph or no?


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

tdi-bart said:


> how so?
> 
> and question, if i have 93 prog, and put in 95 will the soft give me a bit more oooomph or no?


95 RON is roughly equivalent to 91 (Mon+Ron)/2 in the USA. If you are in europe (you are if I remember correctly), you need to run 98 RON or higher.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> 95 RON is roughly equivalent to 91 (Mon+Ron)/2 in the USA. If you are in europe (you are if I remember correctly), you need to run 98 RON or higher.


yes i'm already converting to american 

here i can buy 100 and 102 RON, hence my question...


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

tdi-bart said:


> yes i'm already converting to american
> 
> here i can buy 100 and 102 RON, hence my question...


Maybe. ME9's don't have octane measurement instruments and won't advance timing beyond what is specified in the file. We tune to capabilities of the rated fuel, but not beyond it.

So, I can't really answer your question without a log from your car. If you've got a Vagcom, log your ignition retard from knock for all cylinders. If there is a value in there greater than 0, yes, higher octane fuel will give you a few more ponies. If they are all 0, you won't get anything more.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

i've logged it before, have seen negatives, never anything above a 0.0

sample:

,1.40s,3320rpm,0.0,-1.5,-3.8,-3.0,-5.3,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

tdi-bart said:


> i've logged it before, have seen negatives, never anything above a 0.0
> 
> sample:
> 
> ,1.40s,3320rpm,0.0,-1.5,-3.8,-3.0,-5.3,,,,,,,,,,,,,


He was speaking in terms of absolute value. So, something other than 0. If you have something other than 0, better gas will give you better results.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> Maybe. ME9's don't have octane measurement instruments and won't advance timing beyond what is specified in the file. We tune to capabilities of the rated fuel, but not beyond it.
> 
> So, I can't really answer your question without a log from your car. If you've got a Vagcom, log your ignition retard from knock for all cylinders. If there is a value in there greater than 0, yes, higher octane fuel will give you a few more ponies. If they are all 0, you won't get anything more.


Hey Sean, how is the program switching work going?? Where's the love!


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

Marty said:


> Hey Sean, how is the program switching work going?? Where's the love!


Also super anxious for this


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## jibbed (Dec 3, 2011)

Still waiting for the ROW stuff for 2.1! 

Any word on when we're likely to see it? This boost cut issue is a pain in the @rse. Hitting the limiter in 4th or getting close to the limiter in 5th now gives me zero boost. 

Can you have a look at the aussie roms pretty please!!!!!!


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

jibbed said:


> Still waiting for the ROW stuff for 2.1!
> 
> Any word on when we're likely to see it? This boost cut issue is a pain in the @rse. Hitting the limiter in 4th or getting close to the limiter in 5th now gives me zero boost.
> 
> Can you have a look at the aussie roms pretty please!!!!!!


working on getting cars to our Main distributors in UK and Australia to test the binaries and give us some data and feedback. 

Just fixed cold start on TTRS's


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## jibbed (Dec 3, 2011)

Thanks RTErnie!

Happy to have a word to Guy Harding to use my car to test if you'd like?


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## TunaTT (Oct 25, 2010)

Marty said:


> Hey Sean, how is the program switching work going?? Where's the love!





croman44 said:


> Also super anxious for this


Please add me to the list.


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## [email protected] (Sep 28, 2004)

jibbed said:


> Thanks RTErnie!
> 
> Happy to have a word to Guy Harding to use my car to test if you'd like?


I would most certainly appreciate that! That would help us out tremendously to finish the ROW calibration.


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## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

How much of a DB increase is there from a stage 2 cat-back only VS a stage 2 w/full turbo back system?

I know there is a different in tone and a more raspy sound between cat-back only and turbo back, but I care more about how much louder it is.

I can't decide which route to take. I need to decide in the next few days.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

TRZ06 said:


> How much of a DB increase is there from a stage 2 cat-back only VS a stage 2 w/full turbo back system?
> 
> I know there is a different in tone and a more raspy sound between cat-back only and turbo back, but I care more about how much louder it is.
> 
> I can't decide which route to take. I need to decide in the next few days.


Stage 2 requires a high flow downpipe. The cat back is the optional part... If you want quite, then go with the downpipe and leave the stock cat back. The OEM sports exhaust is supposed to sound great with that configuration. 

APR and other vendors offer exhaust systems/components which don't add a lot of rasp. Borla, AWE, APR, and 034 Motorsport are all good choices. 


Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

just an update

been over a month since my "updated" v2 flash, recently noticed a burning oil smell when i stop or reverse, there is nothing dripping onto the ground, i looked real hard, the only thing i can see is a tiny amount of seepage out of the back valve cover gasket, perhaps thats it

at first i was wondering if i was pushing the car too hard, lately had lots of moments of doing 190+ mph non stop now that they fixed the speed limiter with v2 (ie wot for 5 mins straight)

i checked the oil lastnight, it was darker than normal and had a gas smell, after some thinking, i assume the gas smell is from the very first v2 flash where the car was running too rich for 1-2 weeks until i got the fix, and i wonder if this is what caused a leaky valve gasket i dont know?

going for oil change thurs and hopefully get it more checked out and the leak fixed


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

190 for 5 min? Speechless.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

lets just say traffic was light that evening haha


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## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

Thats some hardcore and intensive (on the motor) driving. That's probably equivalent to 30K+ miles/wear on a normal driven daily driver 

I plan on doing an APR stage 2, but mine is a daily driver and will never see those speeds. 

My guess is the amount of time at WOT might play into that, as the stock internals are holding up fine in the 600hp stage kit it seems.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

TRZ06 said:


> Thats some hardcore and intensive (on the motor) driving. That's probably equivalent to 30K+ miles/wear on a normal driven daily driver
> 
> I plan on doing an APR stage 2, but mine is a daily driver and will never see those speeds.
> 
> My guess is the amount of time at WOT might play into that, as the stock internals are holding up fine in the 600hp stage kit it seems.


It is more wear and tear than normal daily street driving, but it isn't 30k miles either.

A rule of thumb which I came across recently, is that engine wear is about 10x when comparing hours under race conditions to street usage. So for example, a engine with 100 race hours will show wear equivalent to 1000 hours of street driving. The real world results are going to vary based on the conditions, specific engine type, maintenance etc. of course, but this provides at least a sense of relative scale.

The 10x rule of thumb came from a respected vendor in the Miata world, who builds and runs cars in various racing organizations on the west coast. His shop also builds engines and cars for street usage, so he has the experience needed to make this kind of comparison.


Thank you


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Hey APR, how's the program switching going??


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

Marty said:


> Hey APR, how's the program switching going??


Working on it today.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

TRZ06 said:


> Thats some hardcore and intensive (on the motor) driving. That's probably equivalent to 30K+ miles/wear on a normal driven daily driver
> 
> I plan on doing an APR stage 2, but mine is a daily driver and will never see those speeds.
> 
> My guess is the amount of time at WOT might play into that, as the stock internals are holding up fine in the 600hp stage kit it seems.


i also have a 1.6 tdi vw touran, 90hp only, top speed is about 110mph, that car gets WOT for periods of 30-60mins because the lower top speed lol, its hilarious poor turbo i keep thinking haha

its 1 year old now with 30k miles and so far so good, purchased a 5 year unlimited mile warranty for it just in case from the dealer haha


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## smack_ttrs (Mar 24, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Working on it today.


woohoo!


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## Optimus812 (May 5, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Working on it today.


Good stuff, my race fuel misses me lol.. 

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 4


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## kozani (Dec 28, 2006)

Do you think that the dealers will have the software for program switching within the next couple of weeks? I want to put my car away for the winter as soon as the weather turns ugly. It would be nice to have the program before I do that. Thanks.


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## YYC Dubber (Jun 23, 2011)

Black BeauTTy said:


> 190 for 5 min? Speechless.


Europe, where people still know how to drive and can drive as fast as they want....


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

kozani said:


> Do you think that the dealers will have the software for program switching within the next couple of weeks? I want to put my car away for the winter as soon as the weather turns ugly. It would be nice to have the program before I do that. Thanks.


Testing it on the car tomorrow. I'll let ya'll know.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

put ttrs away for winter? lol mine comes out for winter hahaha ontario is bad, salt central, not calgary at least its dry here cars dont rust, they just get a ton of rock chips :banghead:


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Testing it on the car tomorrow. I'll let ya'll know.


It works. If we don't have any problems in next weeks beta, it will be available the week following the BBQ.


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## TunaTT (Oct 25, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> It works. If we don't have any problems in next weeks beta, it will be available the week following the BBQ.


Great News!!!! Looking forward to doing a DP and Stage 2 with at least a 91 (got to love our Cailfornia fuel), 100 & Stock tunes.


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## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

TunaTT said:


> Great News!!!! Looking forward to doing a DP and Stage 2 with at least a 91 (got to love our Cailfornia fuel), 100 & Stock tunes.


I am going to also get the stage 2 as well, and one thing I was thinking about with this program switching is how would that work with a DP / turbo-back system?

Isn't the whole reason for a stage 2 tune with DP / Turbo back exhaust to adjust the A/F ratios for proper mixture? How would switching to the stock tune (for say a dealer visit) w/ a DP / Turbo-back system affect how it runs? I would think it would throw everything way out of whack.

I could see switching octane maps, but not stock tune w/ a DP


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## TunaTT (Oct 25, 2010)

TRZ06 said:


> I am going to also get the stage 2 as well, and one thing I was thinking about with this program switching is how would that work with a DP / turbo-back system?
> 
> Isn't the whole reason for a stage 2 tune with DP / Turbo back exhaust to adjust the A/F ratios for proper mixture? How would switching to the stock tune (for say a dealer visit) w/ a DP / Turbo-back system affect how it runs? I would think it would throw everything way out of whack.
> 
> I could see switching octane maps, but not stock tune w/ a DP


The idea of having the stock tune as one of the options is exactly what you said, for Dealer visits. I had switching (with stock as an option) on my 2.0 Stage 2 with full turbo back exhaust and had no issues with how it ran in stock tune and infact when I sold it I put it in stock tune and had it smogged with out an issue.
My understanding is that the OEM Cat back on our TTRS's is quite good and there is little to no gain in performance in running an aftermarket, the difference is the tone/sound of the different aftermarket options. The major restriction in flow is the down pipe and is what needs to be replaced to run a stage 2 tune. I've also been told that replacing the mid pipes / cats is optional as there is again little or no gain in performance but again the difference is the tone of the exhaust, I'm going to try both and see which I perfer. Hope this helps a little.


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## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

TunaTT said:


> The idea of having the stock tune as one of the options is exactly what you said, for Dealer visits. I had switching (with stock as an option) on my 2.0 Stage 2 with full turbo back exhaust and had no issues with how it ran in stock tune and infact when I sold it I put it in stock tune and had it smogged with out an issue.
> My understanding is that the OEM Cat back on our TTRS's is quite good and there is little to no gain in performance in running an aftermarket, the difference is the tone/sound of the different aftermarket options. The major restriction in flow is the down pipe and is what needs to be replaced to run a stage 2 tune. I've also been told that replacing the mid pipes / cats is optional as there is again little or no gain in performance but again the difference is the tone of the exhaust, I'm going to try both and see which I perfer. Hope this helps a little.


I thought that going to a DP with deleting cats creates a lean condition. In the same way that tuning to enrichen the mixture with a DP and then going back to stock would make it overly rich.

Also, I know that most of the gains are in the stage 1. The exhaust is all for sound and the DP is all for quicker throttle response and turbo spool time (thus making it closer to the feel of a N/A motor)


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## TunaTT (Oct 25, 2010)

TRZ06 said:


> I thought that going to a DP with deleting cats creates a lean condition. In the same way that tuning to enrichen the mixture with a DP and then going back to stock would make it overly rich.
> 
> Also, I know that most of the gains are in the stage 1. The exhaust is all for sound and the DP is all for quicker throttle response and turbo spool time (thus making it closer to the feel of a N/A motor)


My understanding is that the stage 2 tunes whether in stock or different octane mapping has programming to compensate for the running w/o the cat(s) but APR would better be able to confirm / answer the questions.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

TRZ06 said:


> I thought that going to a DP with deleting cats creates a lean condition. In the same way that tuning to enrichen the mixture with a DP and then going back to stock would make it overly rich.
> 
> Also, I know that most of the gains are in the stage 1. The exhaust is all for sound and the DP is all for quicker throttle response and turbo spool time (thus making it closer to the feel of a N/A motor)


Sorry, but this is not accurate information. The ECM will compensate for changes in back pressure if you install an aftermarket downpipe. The ECM is fueling based on a large number of factors and controlling the pressure/boost electronically, so changes like no cats or high flow cats just cause the ECM to change the adaptation values to hit the desired AFR values. There are limits to the adaptation values, but the ECM's used in recent VAG engines can handle exhaust changes. Plenty of people have run stock tunes with high flow downpipe with only a CEL for cat efficiency out of range.

Changing the downpipe for an aftermarket piece does allow much more aggressive tuning, as back pressure is reduced, along with exhaust gas temperatures. This allows for significant power gains with stage 2 tunes over stage 1. 



Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

hightechrdn said:


> Sorry, but this is not accurate information. The ECM will compensate for changes in back pressure if you install an aftermarket downpipe. The ECM is fueling based on a large number of factors and controlling the pressure/boost electronically, so changes like no cats or high flow cats just cause the ECM to change the adaptation values to hit the desired AFR values. There are limits to the adaptation values, but the ECM's used in recent VAG engines can handle exhaust changes. Plenty of people have run stock tunes with high flow downpipe with only a CEL for cat efficiency out of range.
> 
> Changing the downpipe for an aftermarket piece does allow much more aggressive tuning, as back pressure is reduced, along with exhaust gas temperatures. This allows for significant power gains with stage 2 tunes over stage 1.
> 
> ...


Yep.. he nailed it. The ECU will hit the requested AFR pretty much independent of hardware. They're quite smart little buggers.


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## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

hightechrdn said:


> Sorry, but this is not accurate information. The ECM will compensate for changes in back pressure if you install an aftermarket downpipe. The ECM is fueling based on a large number of factors and controlling the pressure/boost electronically, so changes like no cats or high flow cats just cause the ECM to change the adaptation values to hit the desired AFR values. There are limits to the adaptation values, but the ECM's used in recent VAG engines can handle exhaust changes. Plenty of people have run stock tunes with high flow downpipe with only a CEL for cat efficiency out of range.
> 
> Changing the downpipe for an aftermarket piece does allow much more aggressive tuning, as back pressure is reduced, along with exhaust gas temperatures. This allows for significant power gains with stage 2 tunes over stage 1.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the clarification.


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## kozani (Dec 28, 2006)

Hey Sean,

Do you think the APR dealers in Canada will have the program switching by next Saturday? 

Have a great weekend.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

kozani said:


> Hey Sean,
> 
> Do you think the APR dealers in Canada will have the program switching by next Saturday?
> 
> Have a great weekend.


I'm trying to work out a beta to test switching on an R boxcode car. I've got a guy, we just need our schedules to match up. The BBQ got in the way last week. Once that's done, it'll release for NA. ROW will come probably 2 weeks or so after that.


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## Optimus812 (May 5, 2012)

Cool can't wait!

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk


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## OldKenzo (Aug 14, 2012)

According to [email protected] in a private thread, the new program switching file was to be posted last night! Might not hurt to check with your local dealers and see if they see it on the VPN.


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

Sean. Can you confirm this? I will happen to be in the area of my APR shop tomorrow and would love to get this done. Do we know a cost of the upgrade?


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

Guess it is official

http://www.goapr.com/products/ecu_upgrade_25tfsi_ttrs.html


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)




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