# 24v VR6 in Mk1???



## jpautoscope (Mar 2, 2003)

Has anyone doe a Mk1 24v VR6 swap? If so what kind of job am I looking at to shoehorn one in? Thanx


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## J Dubya (Oct 26, 2001)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (jpautoscope)*

I don't think getting the engine in the car is the hard part. Getting all the wiring and immobilizer crap is the hard part. I've only seen one MKII 24v and he said it was a pain in the ass.
Good luck though, it would be sweet.


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## jpautoscope (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (J Dubya)*

Got any pics?


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## scandalous (Jan 4, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (jpautoscope)*









http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=1
Might wanna ask this guy. Seems he's doing a 12v for himself and a 24v for a client. No real details on it in the thread though.


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## BeerChemist (Jan 8, 2004)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (scandalous)*

poor little MK1,...she doesnt deserve that.








i can only put it like this:
Ron Jeremy with Mary Kate Olsen
for those that dont get it,..not such a good match


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## The Kilted Yaksman (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (BeerChemist)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BeerChemist* »_poor little MK1,...she doesnt deserve that.








i can only put it like this:
Ron Jeremy with Mary Kate Olsen
for those that dont get it,..not such a good match









Not for her maybe...


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## reflexbug (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (scandalous)*


_Quote, originally posted by *scandalous* »_








http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=1
Might wanna ask this guy. Seems he's doing a 12v for himself and a 24v for a client. No real details on it in the thread though. 

That's a 12v... but still sick







BOTH of them are sick...


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## Scrubby_4 (Aug 5, 2004)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (The Kilted Yaksman)*















http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## presher (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (Scrubby_4)*

why?


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## scandalous (Jan 4, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (presher)*


_Quote, originally posted by *presher* »_why?























Why not?


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## presher (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (scandalous)*

again, why?,that swap is equivalent to putting a vr6 in the front of a shopping cart







,just a plain waste of time,if it is a street car,will handle like a pos and is also a deathtrap http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## d-bot (Sep 6, 2004)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (presher)*


_Quote, originally posted by *presher* »_again, why?,that swap is equivalent to putting a vr6 in the front of a shopping cart







,just a plain waste of time,if it is a street car,will handle like a pos and is also a deathtrap http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 


powerul, pig heavy, anything eater


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## PimpberryVR6 (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (presher)*


_Quote, originally posted by *presher* »_again, why?,that swap is equivalent to putting a vr6 in the front of a shopping cart







,just a plain waste of time,if it is a street car,will handle like a pos and is also a deathtrap http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

disagree


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## jok3sta (Oct 19, 2000)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (PimpberryVR6)*

i dotn see y ppl say it will handle like crap.. im sure whover does this willnot be using stock suspension.. it wont be as nimble as with the older motor.. but im sure it willbe jus as good for a daily driver.. noone is autocrossing ona daily basis..


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (jok3sta)*

Actually I am the one doing the conversion on the 2 rabbit you are speaking of. I am building this car to be a fun daily driver for myself. I already own a 16V turbo Rabbit that I built that will obviously outhandle the VR rabbit. I have talked to a few VR-A1 owners that have all told me the same thing-Dont believe the nay-sayers about the handling of a VR-A1. People are a little misguide on how heavy this set-up actually is. Most people are very suprised to see how small the VR6 actually is once you take off a few of the things that make it appear so large (Intake manifold, etc.). I would not build something like this for an auto-X car by any means, But I wanted a lot of power in 100% stock engine form without doing the same ol' 1.8T A1 swap that is starting to get so common. I came back from waterwagens and made the descision that this was the way to go for what I wanted. And as for the one that people thought was a 24V, That is my boss's car, and he plans on going turbo to push over 500 HP at the wheels. And his goals are a lot more practical with a VR6 than with a 1.8T or other motor. Plus I had a lot of interest in the fabrication aspect of the project. Here are some pics of mine.....

































And finally, the motor resting on it's final mounting points....











_Modified by patatron at 7:09 AM 9-8-2004_


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## jok3sta (Oct 19, 2000)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (patatron)*

good job man.. i dont know what ppl are talkin about.. i think one disbeliever starts up sumthin then everyone believes it and starts a rumor


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (presher)*


_Quote, originally posted by *presher* »_again, why?,that swap is equivalent to putting a vr6 in the front of a shopping cart







,just a plain waste of time,if it is a street car,will handle like a pos and is also a deathtrap http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

Please tell us more as you seem to know alot about this


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (Andrew Stauffer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Andrew Stauffer* »_
Please tell us more as you seem to know alot about this


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (patatron)*

have a few updated pics, nothing exciting but more progress none the less.
Here is a pic of the shifter housing mount welded in and the shifter fully mounted to it.








Here is a pic of Brads VR sitting on it's final resting points.








Here is a pic to show that the hood actually fits over this situation. Although I would rather not discuss how low the oil pans sit in these bastids!
















http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (presher)*


_Quote, originally posted by *presher* »_why?






















`
With your response, I hope you are not refering to poor handling. Because you seem to be driving a Jetta 3 with a VR, and I know for a fact that you are dealing with about a 3800# cub weight.


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## The Kilted Yaksman (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (patatron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_ 
Here is a pic to show that the hood actually fits over this situation. Although I would rather not discuss how low the oil pans sit in these bastids!








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









Two words: *Dry Sump*!


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## The Kilted Yaksman (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (patatron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_`
With your response, I hope you are not refering to poor handling. Because you seem to be driving a Jetta 3 with a VR, and I know for a fact that you are dealing with about a 3800# cub weight.









Ummm...no.








The VR6 MkIV Jetta is only ~3200lbs. And I'm pretty sure that the MkIII is lighter. But still, your point is a good one, since your Rabbit will probably only weigh about 2100-2200lbs. Of course you might have to put a couple hundred pounds of ballast in the rear to keep it from doing an endo under hard braking.










_Modified by The Kilted Yaksman at 8:24 AM 9-9-2004_


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (The Kilted Yaksman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Kilted Yaksman* »_
Ummm...no.








The VR6 MkIV Jetta is only ~3200lbs. And I'm pretty sure that the MkIII is lighter. But still, your point is a good one, since your Rabbit will probably only weigh about 2100-2200lbs. Of course you might have to put a couple hundred pounds of ballast in the rear to keep it from doing an endo under hard braking.











ACtually the official weight of a GLS VR6 jetta in like 00 or 01 from VW was like 2990... and the official weight of an identically equipped 1.8T jetta was about 2920.. I forget the exact numbers but they were 70lbs apart and the 1.8t was low 29XX range.
So a Vr6 really isnt' even that much more weight then anything elseyou could install.. toss on a bigger turbo and a front mount and that 1.8t is getting even closer.. Vr6 weight does sit a little more forward though then a 4 cylinder.. so that 70lbs may be exagerated a little bit.
Pics of the projects look sweet. I was considering doing this with the rabbit shell I have but its 99% flawless and already painted so it wasnt' worth risking.. just gonna do a MK2 swap with the donor I have now and do a rabbit next after I sell the MK2...


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (The Kilted Yaksman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Kilted Yaksman* »_
Ummm...no.








The VR6 MkIV Jetta is only ~3200lbs. And I'm pretty sure that the MkIII is lighter. But still, your point is a good one, since your Rabbit will probably only weigh about 2100-2200lbs. Of course you might have to put a couple hundred pounds of ballast in the rear to keep it from doing an endo under hard braking.









_Modified by The Kilted Yaksman at 8:24 AM 9-9-2004_

I own a MKIII jetta GLX, and the factory listed cub weight is 3870 LBS. I dont know what the MKIV is, But I would assumme it is comparable. I will put up a pic of the factory door sticker if you still dont believe me. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (patatron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_
I own a MKIII jetta GLX, and the factory listed cub weight is 3870 LBS. I dont know what the MKIV is, But I would assumme it is comparable. I will put up a pic of the factory door sticker if you still dont believe me. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









that is nto the curb weight that is the GVWR.. gross vehicle weight raiting.. that means loaded with 4 passengers and luggage the car cannot exceed 3870.
I forget exactly what the weight for each passenger is.. but a MK3 GLX is going to be low to mid 2800lbs... so factor in 4 passengers at 200lbs and 200 lbs of luggage and you have your GVWR or 3870


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (chris86vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_
that is nto the curb weight that is the GVWR.. gross vehicle weight raiting.. that means loaded with 4 passengers and luggage the car cannot exceed 3870.
I forget exactly what the weight for each passenger is.. but a MK3 GLX is going to be low to mid 2800lbs... so factor in 4 passengers at 200lbs and 200 lbs of luggage and you have your GVWR or 3870

You may have me on this one. I looked real quick. I am just glad the rabbit does not sag at all in the front on the stock suspension with the VR in it, That tells me good things.


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (patatron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_
You may have me on this one. I looked real quick. I am just glad the rabbit does not sag at all in the front on the stock suspension with the VR in it, That tells me good things.

yup definitly... I"d say with engine trans and addistional bracing its just over a 100lbs more in the front then with a stock engine in a rabbit. no great for an already front heavy car I think is the main point.. but still its not like putting a 5.0 in a miata.


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## Nub (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (chris86vw)*

I too have this project on the go! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I'm wondering what (the guys who have already built there cars) are running for suspensions, or what kind of advice they could give me? Mine will be a 12v


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (Nub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Nub* »_I too have this project on the go! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I'm wondering what (the guys who have already built there cars) are running for suspensions, or what kind of advice they could give me? Mine will be a 12v

Post pics. I wanna see more of these in progress! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Nub (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (patatron)*

I would But I don't know how to post pics in these forums


_Modified by Nub at 2:10 PM 9-11-2004_


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## moneymakin (Sep 14, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (jpautoscope)*

If you have to ask.....then you may be in deep. I'll let everyone else argue about it, but I've done an a1 vr6 and an a2 24v. It's definitely possible and it will definitely handle good although in addition to having properly damped shocks and the right spring rates you should also modify the front strut towers to add more positive caster and increase suspension travel any way possible assuming you will want to lower the car a bit.
I drove my 88 cabriolet vr6 turbo for over 3 years with no driveline problems. People who say the car won't handle right just don't know how to set up suspensions properly, making the vortex a larger pool of disinformation caused by people with no real experience on the subject at hand stating their poor opinions like they were common facts that everyone should know. I speak from experience, I've done over 40 watercooled engine swaps, I know WTF I'm talking about. This swap is definitely a lot of work and is certainly not the easiest way to do it, but it is very unique and if you like the old a1 body, then don't let people ruin it for you just because they like to look knowledgeable.
BTW, the 24v wiring, VSS and immo is not for the faint of heart. Whether you end up doing this swap or not, people should have accurate information about it. Everyone should share what they know from hands on experince not what they think...








Here'e a pic of my car @h20 2002 or 2003 I think....








Here's a pic of the engine bay....








And here's a picture of the 24v vr6 in a 1991 gti that I did recently....








This car flies and it sounds AWESOME!!!!!!
Ryan


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (moneymakin)*

Your projects seem pretty clean. All I have been hearing from people since I started this project were things like its going to be too front heavy, and handle like crap, and as soon as I put the motor in it will be on the ground. But I have had everything in the engine bay, and the car sits perfectly level. I do have a set of ground control coilovers and Koni adjustable struts to help me dial in the front ( I figure I will need the full adjustability to get it just right). And as for the guy that said he did not know how to post pics-E-Mail me them at [email protected] and I will post them up. I want to see as many of these cars on this thread as possible. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## moneymakin (Sep 14, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (patatron)*

Yeah, the "front heavy" argument is pretty common around here from people who have never done or seen an a1 vr6. 
Take an a3 gti for example....comes with a 2.0 and also a 2.8 but no one ever claims that an a3 gti vr6 is "nose heavy" do they?? The factory changes the spring rate, shock dampening, and the caster on the a3 to compensate for the extra 70lbs but more than that it is not the weight but the fact that the vr6 tilts forward and places most of it's weight ahead of the center of the driveline, that's where the extra positive caster is needed for high speed stability. I used bilstein sports for an a1 car with 300/200 springs and the car handled as well as any other vr6 car. With the right shocks and springs the car will be a lot of fun. If you can though, do the caster plates up front to make your front caster 2.5 to 3.5 positive and most camber/caster plates also give you another inch or two of suspension travel, the a1 has less front suspension travel than the a2/a3. I guarentee that it will behave like a factory vr6 car with a sport suspension.

ryan


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (moneymakin)*

I"m not saying agree with it.. but the biggest complaint that every magazine has ever had about a GTI VR6 is that its very nose heavy compared to the previous cars gtis or 4 cylinder Gtis.. or even other 4 cylinders that are usually in the test.


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## moneymakin (Sep 14, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (chris86vw)*

Which magazines, and which issues?? And if so, any written magazine article is still someone's opinion. 
We're not talking about autocrossing here, we're talking about street use and I'm saying the difference is there, but negligible. So by the GTI VR6 argument, a jetta would have more weight at the rear and with a 4-cyl motor up front it could be "rear heavy" right?? What are the corner weight differences between 4 and 6 cylinder cars?? If someone who has that info wants to argue, I'll listen. Again, people with more experince need to speak up instead of "here's what I heard", or "here's what I read", so it must be true.....









ryan


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (moneymakin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *moneymakin* »_ Which magazines, and which issues?? And if so, any written magazine article is still someone's opinion. 

off the top of my head I dont' know.. but I do have the orginal EC article on the VR6 MK3 so I"ll look itup when I get a chance and see if it says it.. any shoot out C&D does that has say the GTI VR6 against the civic SI will always say that its front heavy.

_Quote »_
We're not talking about autocrossing here, we're talking about street use and I'm saying the difference is there, but negligible.


Hey I'm the one who pointed out the ACTUAL weight difference between two identially equipped cars only difference being VR6 vs 1.8t.. so I know very well the overall number is negligible in those cars.. However taking a VR6 from a 2900lbs car and putting it in a 2200 lbs car makes that 70lbs difference a much higher percentage.. You may have built them and you may have set them up.. but that doe not change the ACTUAL numbers... so yes dialed in itmay not seem as front heavy.. but it does not change the fact that it will have more weight in the front... And it does not change the fact that VR6 weight is FURTHER forward then that of a 4cylinder.. so think back to physics on what that can do for rotation speed.


_Quote »_
So by the GTI VR6 argument, a jetta would have more weight at the rear and with a 4-cyl motor up front it could be "rear heavy" right?? What are the corner weight differences between 4 and 6 cylinder cars?? If someone who has that info wants to argue, I'll listen. Again, people with more experince need to speak up instead of "here's what I heard", or "here's what I read", so it must be true.....








ryan

Why can't anyone else have an opinion.. why cant' a magazine author who drives hundreds of cars a year have an opinion to say that the car feels front heavy compared to the other cars inthe test or other cars he has driven.. If he is not entitled to his opinion WTF makes you entitled to one?????
As for the jetta one you just lost your arguement there.. A jetta has more weight in the back yes.. A jetta also is more areodynamic AND has a better weight distribution then any GTI or golf because of its trunk. If you evently removed the weight form a jetta to match that of a GTI and both kept their factory weight distributions a jetta would out handle a GTI.
not to mention the fact that I said I was not arguing you (As in I agreed with you)..... so get your head out of your ass and open your eyes...


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## presher (Jul 6, 2004)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (Andrew Stauffer)*

With your response, I hope you are not refering to poor handling. Because you seem to be driving a Jetta 3 with a VR, and I know for a fact that you are dealing with about a 3800# cub weight. 
__________________________________________________________________
what does seing i own a jetta have to do with the whole issue?
__________________________________________________________________
Please tell us more as you seem to know alot about this 
i know more than you think and yes i have seen and driven in an a1 vr6,as well as numerous a2 cars,and i would never want an a1 with a vr6,how about you,what's your experience? just to sum it up your car is rather unique in its own sense simply because you tackled some issues that would become a problem eventually by all the trouble you went through to reenforce and stiffen the chassis http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ,but just to set some people straight because they are alot of followers here,notice he said he would never build one for an autox car,that means it does not handle well as i stated before,that's why noone goes throgh the trouble of building one.


_Modified by presher at 3:01 AM 9-13-2004_


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## moneymakin (Sep 14, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (chris86vw)*

quote..."so get your head out of your ass and open your eyes..." 
That's real nice. It's easy to insult people when you're behind a computer screen instead of face to face.







Aparently I offended you, my bad. I've been known to be hard on people who make the "but it's still heavier up front" argument because it usually comes from people without experience and because handling is only one issue of many when considering an engine swap. HANDLING IS NOT EVERYTHING!! But all of the other positives seem to get forgotten when people concentrate on the possible weight concern and it's silly because there are thousands of vr6 (or v8 or any car without 50/50 balance) driver's out there with HUGE smiles on their face every time they drive their cars and that's what it's about. If the original poster of this thread wants to do a vr6, don't try to ruin his parade by telling him the car will never handle right when actually it has the potential to handle very well, even next to a 4-cyl car ON THE STREET. Maybe he doesn't even care how it handles, maybe he wants to drag it. Instead, you could tell him that he'll need to do quite a bit of research to set up his suspension properly if he wants to put his new found power down through the corners.
So how much more weight does a car have to have up front for you to consider it "front-heavy?" 70lbs on a 2200 lb car even up front is still negligable but if you insist on arguing a very small percentage, 70 lbs is 3.2% of 2200lbs. You're arguing 3.2%







Now where that weight is placed DOES matter but you mentioned rotational speed.... do you think that extra weight is on the outside of the wheel or something?? . Maybe you could explain to everyone here your "physics of rotation speed" and how it applies to extra weight placement. As for the "ACTUAL" #'s not changing, you're wrong again... setting up the ride height on a car at all 4 corners will change the corner weights, balance and handling of a car. I had my a1 vr6 corner weighted and got the diagonals almost 50/50 and had a f/r balance of 62/38, but these #'s need to be compared to some 4-cyl cars #'s to be significant. The point here is that when you change one variable like the engine, many other variables change simultaneously and they have to recognized, checked, changed and re-checked to suit the needs of the altered chassis. And suspension and braking are high up on the priority list. Basically, you tune to suit. Did anyone ask this guy if handling was his #1 concern?? Nope, but everyone likes to be an expert so here comes the vortex!
People are certainly entitled to an opinion, but the original post asked for info on putting a vr6 in an a1 FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS DONE IT. He didn't say, "hey do you think this is a good idea guys?" or "Do you think my a1 vr6 will handle alright?" So I'm not really stating my opinion here, I'm stating facts based upon my experience after building several cars similar to the one in question here. I've done over 40 watercooled engine swaps and I own a tuning shop so I'm not just an enthusiast. So you read magazines, that's great. I read magazines too and if this guy builds his car, gets it in a magazine and Ian Kuah drives it and says it's a poor handler then I'll shutup. Because if it's written in a magazine, it must be true.
I wasn't arguing that a jetta is rear heavy (i drive one, it even has a 4-cyl!!!), I was only saying that if 70 extra pounds up front makes a vr6 golf nose heavy, then more weight in the rear should make a jetta "rear heavy" compared to a golf. That was the logic you were using. Of course it makes no sense because your argument makes no sense. Sure 50/50 weight distribution is nice, but almost every car on the road has more weight at one end of it. But I guess that pointing out a 3.2% difference makes you a real expert.
Now if you don't have any experince on the subject here, keep reading your magazines and come back and talk after you've spent 10 years building, tuning, and driving cars. Anyways, "presher" said he drove an a1 vr6 and it sucked, so I guess that settles it. Oh, btw what shocks, spring rates, camber, caster, toe, tires, and wheels were on that car that a1 vr6 you drove presher? I've seen many hacked a1 vr6's, just because you drove a bad one doesn't mean that it couldn't be corrected. More people don't build them for the street because it's a lot of work to install the motor correctly AND make it handle. 
ryan
PS- to the original poster of this thread or anyone else considering an a1 vr6...anytime you ask how to do this on the vortex, this is how your thread will end up. too bad if your attached to your a1


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## SvenRasta (Nov 16, 2002)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (moneymakin)*

*moneymakin,*
Hey Boss...I've got respect for you and the effort you put into your work. VR's in A1's ain't the easiest thing but with the proper supsension...can handle their own. I don't think too much trash would be thrown around here if ya built an A1 VRT AWD. I know I'd check the post and pics...might even "right click save as"...werd http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (moneymakin)*

Alright I'll put this in the simplest terms I can,
I AGREED WITH YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE..
why can't you read that I Was simply stating FACTs about the weight change??? REally can you read or can you only type to see yourself type.
I said flat out I had not done one.. nor ridden in one so I could not say what it really was like but the MATH shows that it would be front heavy.. and heavier then a regular rabbit with a 4 cylinder.
Its a well known fact that a FWD front engine car is already weight heavy and trying ot get a good balance is difficult.. unless your about the later FWD front engine V6 caddys most cars with V8s are RWD which balances out the cars a GREAT deal... thats a really horrile comparison.. so you truely due need to get your head out of your ass.
AS for rotation.. as with a wheel the more weight on the outside of the wheel slows the rotation down.. You want the weight of something closest to the cener of the object.. it takes the less energy for to turn something that has the weight towards the center then when its on the outside.. Think back to physics kid sitting on the stool with dumb bells in his hands being held out to the side.. teacher spins him around.. as he starts to slow down from the intial spin the teacher gave him, he is told to pull his arms close to his chest..... instead of continuing ot slow down he actually speeds up... having the engine sticking PAST the front wheels even further now means that the car will rotate SLOWER in a turn.. so yes even if its corner balanced the best it can that split you post is not a very good split, maybe not worse then what a stock VR6 is in a mK4.. but still not good.... and like I pointed out a VR6 if FURTHER forward then a 4 cylinder. So the mass will be very far out from the center where it rotates and this WILL slow down the turning of the car.
For someone who thinks the guy is not concerned with handlig and turning.. you seem to only care about pointing out htat its not bad.. and while it may not be that bad.. its pretty horrible compared to what it used to be or what most cars are. If you tihnk he is only concerned with going in a straight line then you are not argueing yourself becuase the increased weight over the drive wheels would help in traction.. so which is it??? what does he want to know..
Just becuase you have built a car before doesn't mean you are the only one who knows how.. the only one who knows about it.. and certainly not the only one who knows the physics behind something.
The FACTs are it will be heavier up front.. whether YOU think that makes it front heavy or not is your opinion.. that does not change the fact that it will be HEAVIER..


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## moneymakin (Sep 14, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (chris86vw)*

If you would read my post, I never said that it wasn't heavier. I'm saying that all your ramblings are off-topic. Everyone knows that a vr6 is heavier than a 4cyl. Sure, you're stating "FACTS" but why even mention it unless you're implying that it's reason not to do it? If you want to keep arguning your little 3.2%, then go ahead but I don't think our little argument is contributing anything positive to this thread so i'm done. If getting in the last word is your real game, go ahead.

ryan
ps- do you tell people to get their head out of their ass face-to-face or only when you're hiding behind your computer?? That's what I thought...


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## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (moneymakin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *moneymakin* »_ If you would read my post, I never said that it wasn't heavier. I'm saying that all your ramblings are off-topic. Everyone knows that a vr6 is heavier than a 4cyl. Sure, you're stating "FACTS" but why even mention it unless you're implying that it's reason not to do it? If you want to keep arguning your little 3.2%, then go ahead but I don't think our little argument is contributing anything positive to this thread so i'm done. If getting in the last word is your real game, go ahead.

3.2% is alot when your talking about adding it to only one part of the car... not to mention that is just he engine difference between a 1.8T and a VR6..over an engine that came stock in a rabbit its gonna be more then 70lbs.... add in the 20ish lbs an 02A weighs over an 020, the extra bracing needed to hold the engine etc etc.. and that 3.2% is going up and up and up... And that weight balance is also going more towards the front.


_Quote »_
ps- do you tell people to get their head out of their ass face-to-face or only when you're hiding behind your computer?? That's what I thought...

What did you think.. did you thikn that I hide behind a keyboard.. defintly not I will and have said that to peoples faces..I say it like it is.. sorry if you cant' handle it.. becuase what it is, is not what you wanted to hear...


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (presher)*


_Quote, originally posted by *presher* »_With your response, I hope you are not refering to poor handling. Because you seem to be driving a Jetta 3 with a VR, and I know for a fact that you are dealing with about a 3800# cub weight. 
__________________________________________________________________
what does seing i own a jetta have to do with the whole issue?
__________________________________________________________________
Please tell us more as you seem to know alot about this 
i know more than you think and yes i have seen and driven in an a1 vr6,as well as numerous a2 cars,and i would never want an a1 with a vr6,how about you,what's your experience? just to sum it up your car is rather unique in its own sense simply because you tackled some issues that would become a problem eventually by all the trouble you went through to reenforce and stiffen the chassis http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ,but just to set some people straight because they are alot of followers here,notice he said he would never build one for an autox car,that means it does not handle well as i stated before,that's why noone goes throgh the trouble of building one.

_Modified by presher at 3:01 AM 9-13-2004_

If you read the posts in here, you may have noticed I had the wrong info and accepted that, The reason I noted that I had one was because I was able to go out and read the door sticker, but I was reading the wrong number. People are sure getting angry in this thread!







We should get back on topic and start seeing some more sweet ass projects! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## SLC4EVER (Oct 7, 1999)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (patatron)*


_Quote, originally posted by *patatron* »_We should get back on topic and start seeing some more sweet ass projects! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









Exactly. Please try to keep the replies on topic. IM if you need to make a point. This thread has great info in it, let's try to keep it that way. Thank you.


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## jpautoscope (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (moneymakin)*

Thanx for all your opinions and help on this thread I've started but I've decided against putting a VR6 in my Mk1 cuz I just purchased an R32 last night! What a sweet ride! Thanx Jerry P


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## SLC4EVER (Oct 7, 1999)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (jpautoscope)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif You must be excited!


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## jpautoscope (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (SLC4EVER)*

Yep, I'm pretty stoked right now.


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## SLC4EVER (Oct 7, 1999)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (jpautoscope)*

I had that same feeling when I bought the Corrado new.


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## jpautoscope (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (SLC4EVER)*

Yep, and it feels pretty damn good!


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (J Dubya)*

I finally have a few updated pics of the Rabbit. I finally decieded to go 5 lug due to brakes,ABS,etc. ease of compatibility. I just got done istalling the 11" front brakes on w/ the MK3 spindles/calipers, the rear disks, all of the pedal assembly modifications to work with the hydralic clutch/ABS,MK3 booster/VR6 throttle cable. I am still thinking that I am going to run steelies on this car due to the fact that I wanted the outside to look as stock as possible. This was the biggest beef I had with doing the 5 lug swap in the first place. Let me know what you think of the VR Jetta wheels on it.
























http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (chris86vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chris86vw* »_I"m not saying agree with it.. but the biggest complaint that every magazine has ever had about a GTI VR6 is that its very nose heavy compared to the previous cars gtis or 4 cylinder Gtis.. or even other 4 cylinders that are usually in the test.

All other things being equal, more mass in the front, and the further forward the centre of that mass is located, the worse the car will handle. However, VW's stock suspension setups, even the "sport" ones, are generally known to be crap (at least during the Mk3-4 era). The Plus suspensoin obviously helped, and even later Mk3 Golfs and Jettas had that setup like the VR6 Corrado, but despite better geometry they still have underdamped, undersprung suspensions with not enough rear roll stiffness. That exaggerates the feeling of nose heaviness, because the car is set up to understeer.
I have no Mk1 VR6 experience, but I imagine with corrected geometry as described above, good damping and a bit of weight relocation, it could still handle well enough to surprise a lot of people, street, autocross or whatever.


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## Nub (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (Mr Black)*

Great thread, keep it up http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## moneymakin (Sep 14, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (patatron)*

Patatron,
You're using mk3 spindles, does that mean you are using a subframe?? Because if not, you will need to either lower your a1 steering rack or raise the tie-rod end arms on the a3 spindles to the height of the a1 steering rack. I mocked up the a3 spindles in my car when originally doing the swap just to see how they might fit and with the car on the ground, the tie-rods angled down quite a bit to connect to the newer spindles meaning the car would have some really bad bump steer as the wheels would certainly toe-in over any bumps. The struts also appeared to not be quite vertical side to side with the a3 spindle. I ended up keeping the a1 spindle and hubs but drilling my hubs for 5x100, used 11.3" calipers on 11" a1 brake adapters, an a4 gti 11.3" rotor, and machined down the carrier 1/4" and it all bolted together. I gave up on fitting ABS...Probably the same amount of work as fitting the a3 spindles and raising the tie-rod end arm. The jetta wheels look great! Looks like we did the pedal cluster the same way. Sweet project!!!
ryan


_Modified by moneymakin at 4:56 PM 9-19-2004_


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## Boostedcorrados (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (moneymakin)*










VR6T????That must have been stupid fast and fun as hell to roll topdown.....If you wouldnt mind talking more about the swap you did and if you have pics or more info you would want to share please IM me im thinking about taking this on now after looking at the pics. Im just wondering how hard it really will be to do.I will have a full doner car to do it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Russell


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## GTi2OV (Oct 10, 2002)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (Boostedcorrados)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Boostedcorrados* »_
VR6T????That must have been stupid fast and fun as hell to roll topdown.....If you wouldnt mind talking more about the swap you did and if you have pics or more info you would want to share please IM me im thinking about taking this on now after looking at the pics. Im just wondering how hard it really will be to do.I will have a full doner car to do it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Russell

You are crazy dude.















Gonna have 2 projects at once eh?


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (moneymakin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *moneymakin* »_Patatron,
You're using mk3 spindles, does that mean you are using a subframe?? Because if not, you will need to either lower your a1 steering rack or raise the tie-rod end arms on the a3 spindles to the height of the a1 steering rack. I mocked up the a3 spindles in my car when originally doing the swap just to see how they might fit and with the car on the ground, the tie-rods angled down quite a bit to connect to the newer spindles meaning the car would have some really bad bump steer as the wheels would certainly toe-in over any bumps. The struts also appeared to not be quite vertical side to side with the a3 spindle. I ended up keeping the a1 spindle and hubs but drilling my hubs for 5x100, used 11.3" calipers on 11" a1 brake adapters, an a4 gti 11.3" rotor, and machined down the carrier 1/4" and it all bolted together. I gave up on fitting ABS...Probably the same amount of work as fitting the a3 spindles and raising the tie-rod end arm. The jetta wheels look great! Looks like we did the pedal cluster the same way. Sweet project!!!
ryan

_Modified by moneymakin at 4:56 PM 9-19-2004_

I am still fabbing a few temporary parts to make sure this is the way I want to go, as for yours, there is a company that sells 5 lug hubs specifically for use on converting a1 cars to 5 lug. I am already planning on building custom a-arms and am looking into what I have to do with the steering tie rods. I will post again when I have come to a conclusion on this. P.S. No subframe-see pics.


_Modified by patatron at 2:19 AM 9-21-2004_


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (patatron)*

I just double checked the angle of the tie rod arms on my MK3 spindle set-up, and the tie rods sit so level with the a-arms that I would not relocate them if I could do it by magic. I am using MK3 jetta spindles, and the only mod I have to make is the lower a-arms are going to have the ball joint re-located aboutr 1" forward.


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## Boostedcorrados (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (GTiG6O)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTiG6O* »_
You are crazy dude.















Gonna have 2 projects at once eh?

there are a total of 3 going right now







corrado,mk2,an 83gti







i was keeping it under covers incase it didnt happen but it was droped off a few days ago motors already out and theres been some cutting going on and some welding


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## patatron (Aug 10, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (Boostedcorrados)*

Multiple projects can sure put a strain on a guy! The VR6 Bunny I am showing pics of here is actually my tamer of 2 Bunnies!










_Modified by patatron at 6:32 AM 9-21-2004_


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## Boostedcorrados (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (patatron)*

yeah your telling me. It makes money tight aswell. not only that anything else you need to do becomes 2nd because you make it a must do to work on the car










_Modified by Boostedcorrados at 5:02 AM 9-21-2004_


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## GTi2OV (Oct 10, 2002)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (Boostedcorrados)*

man, you are nuts. It was bad enough with 2, now you wont focus on the rado anymore again!!


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## Boostedcorrados (Dec 2, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (GTiG6O)*

no thats first! I have had a wild hair up my ass to sell all of it and get a 930 tho


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## the4ork (Mar 10, 2003)

*Re: 24v VR6 in Mk1??? (Boostedcorrados)*

Where did all the pics go?


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## wellDAMN (Oct 24, 2009)

Anyone do this yet?


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