# What is a good winter tire?



## stebed (Oct 18, 2001)

I will be buying a 2002 Jetta A/T Silver/Black, Leather, Sunroof, etc..
I live in Montreal, where we get a fair amount of snow, in the city it's half half, pavement on half the roads
snow/ice on the other half. I also do a lot of skiing which means I do a lot of driving during heavy
winter storms.. Meaning lots of snow and black ice, what do you guys suggest?
Thanks


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## jetta_tls (Sep 3, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (stebed)*

Hey STEBED i am also in montreal(west island).I think that for there price the Michelin artic alpin and bridgestone blizzaks are the best ones on snow and ice.I am getting some michelin artic alipins for this winter.At CLUB PRICE a set of four cost 504 $ taxes included.GOOD luck with your purchases.
PS:where from montreal are u.


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## Pimpster (Aug 12, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (jetta_tls)*

Forget Blizaks they are only an all-season, the artic alpin is OK but by no means great. If you are looking for the best snow go with Nokian Hakkapelitta 1(studded) or the Nokian Hakkapeliitta Q(studless), they win every comparison time after time, not to mention possibly the best reputation any tire ever has had the honor of fathering. They are built in the roots of strong customer satisfaction and a terrific product, you will seldom if ever actually see an advertisment for them they would rather put there $$ into R&D and not advertising. There is a reason the Blizak and the Artic alpin are the only snows you here of a lot, advertising and yes you are paying for it. I am sure Nokians will be close to or less then the michelin, I am a Nokian dealer if you are interested email me at [email protected] I will give you a more accurate estamite. But do yourself a favor and DON'T get the Blizak, there wonderful multi-cell compound goes only aprox. 45% of the way through the tire other wise they would wear out way too fast. Good luck and look for a local Nokian dealer if you wish and look at the tires you will be impressed.


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## BoraVR6 (Apr 17, 2000)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (stebed)*

Got my Nokian Hakka Qs from Bruce at http://www.importtire.com 
$501.20 USD for 4 195/65-15 Hakka Q tires, 4 VW OE wheels, and shipping. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## sebz1.8t (Apr 18, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (BoraVR6)*

Nokian Hakka 's, are the best winter tire, the competitors are not even close


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## catalytic (Jul 31, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (stebed)*

It depends on your preference for dry road handling ability vs. ice/snow traction. You have to make compromises here. There is no such thing as a winter tire that is excellent at both dry road performance and ice/snow traction. You have to pick a tire that's excellent at one or the other, or pick a tire that's simply good (but not excellent) at both. 
*MAXIMUM SNOW/ICE TRACTION* 
Despite the hype the Nokian Hakkapelitta Q's get by some people in this forum who have financial incentive to recommend them to you, they are indeed an excellent ice/snow tire. The Blizzak WS-50, Yokohama Guardex 600, and Dunlop Graspic DS-1 are also designed to be excellent in snow traction. The Blizzak MZ-01/02 are designed more for ice traction, so they are not as good in snow. Unfortunately, to maximize snow/ice traction, the manufacturers have to sacrifice dry road performance, so these tires handle like sh*t on dry pavement (the Blizzak WS-50, Guardex 600, and Graspic DS-1 especially).
*SNOW/ICE TRACTION + DRY ROAD PERFORMANCE*
The next step is the intermediate snow tire, i.e., those that are neither the best in snow/ice or in the dry, but are good in both. The Michelin Alpin is the perfect example of this. It is the best balanced winter tire available. They are perfect for Toronto and New York style winters, but I don't know about Montreal. Montreal's winters are a little worse. I had Blizzak WS-15's (the older version of the WS-50) when I lived in Montreal, and found them to be great in snow/ice, but poor in the dry. If I had to do it again, I think I might have gone with the Michelin Alpins to get better dry performance, but I wonder if that is a little risky or not in Montreal. Safety first, performance second, right? Well, depends on your personality, I guess. The Blizzak MZ-01/02 can also be included in this category, as their snow performance is not on par with the other MAX SNOW/ICE TRACTION tires, but they do have better ice traction and dry road performance. Yet, when they are compared against the Alpins, they are not quite as good when it comes to dry road performance.
*MAXIMUM DRY ROAD PERFORMANCE*
The next level is the high performance snow tire. These are designed for dry road performance equalling any all-season tire, but they sacrifice snow/ice traction to get it. I don't think they would be suitable for use in Montreal or any other snowbelt region, but people in milder locations may want to take note. The Blizzak LM-22, Pirelli SnowSport 210/240, Michelin Pilot Alpin, and Dunlop WinterSport M2 are in this category. If you drive primarily on main roads and highways in the Toronto/New York area, or if you live in other places where the roads are relatively clear, these are the tires for you. Remember, however, that if the city's snow removal workers go on strike, you will have to get your buddy to drive you to work in his SUV







These tires will not handle heavy snow/ice at all.


[Modified by catalytic, 6:46 PM 10-21-2001]


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## Pimpster (Aug 12, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (catalytic)*

That is a wonderful idea catalytic, but I am affraid I am having a hard time believing you. So to clear things up let it be known that I also sell Bridgestone but I DO NOT sell Blizzak's. Appearently advertising worked on you but the fact are the facts. The Blizzak is good for the first 45% of its tread life, but then becomes an all-season tread compound(if they where to use the multi-cell compound through out the tire would wear out too fast) so after less then half of the tread is wore off there is little if any benefit over a conventional all-season. Now as far as your huge generalization of all snow tires goes, I am unsure of what you are saying??? So there are 3 types of snows?? that is news to me. In your "maximum snow/ice" catagory I don't understand why you neglected to recommend any studded tires, its obvious you know a lot about tires and I am sure you realize the benefits of studs, and the only down fall is more road noise. Which is kept to a minimum with Hakka 1 featuring the eco stud system, which uses a kometa marathon stud which is not only is lighter, but as a carbide type which wears down even with the tread. I don't care what you say you know studs are THE BEST SNOW TIRES. Did you also realize that ice traction is not as important as most think, only 3% of fatal winter accidents are caused by ice, as where 80%+ is caused by a loss of lateral grip(that is to say on snow/slush). Just so you know slush is the second most dangerous winter condition which makes you 13 times more likely to be in an accident, then when on dry roads. Yea I know a thing or two about winter accidents, in order to solve the problem you have to look at what the problem really is first and nokian is the only company that approaches things this way. Did you know Goodyear snow tires where developed and made in 2 weeks in florida!! Scary. Blizzak's advertising about the stopping on the ice rink proves nothing! That is great but it is not a real world problem, that solves 3% of your problems, not great odds. Focus on lateral grip, and then maybe you would have something, but then again that would not make a great commercial either. So yes I sell Nokian tires, but I also sell every other major brand and NOKIAN IS THE BEST. The next thing is that, will I sell tires/make money from anyone at this site selling them tires? NO. I try to help them and point them in the right direction, having a profesional on there side with out the pressure of a sale is like a warm blanket in the cold business of retail. The last point I will make is find some who had nokian tires once and you will find someone who will get another set, I have never taken off Nokians and put anything else back on, think that says something about the product. That being said I have never taken off a set of Blizzak's and put another set back on.


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## MEIN_VW (Jul 29, 2000)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (Pimpster)*

I've got Nokian Hakka 1 studded and they served me very well last winter. I've also used Michelin Arctic Alpins and they were very good and have less road noise then the Hakka's. But I am willing to live with tire noise from the Hakka 1's since they're so damn good in the snow. The Hakka's reduction of latteral acceleration in snow is amazing.


[Modified by MEIN_VW, 6:00 PM 10-24-2001]


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## kurumasuki (Aug 12, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (MEIN_VW)*

MEIN_VW,
Where did you get the Nokian Hakkas from and for how much?
TIA,
quote:[HR][/HR]I've got Nokian Hakka 1 studded and they served me very well last winter. I've also used Michelin Arctic Alpins and they were very good and have less road noise then the Hakka's. But I am willing to live with tire noise from the Hakka 1's since they're so damn good in the snow. The Hakka's reduction of latteral acceleration in snow is amazing.
[Modified by MEIN_VW, 6:00 PM 10-24-2001][HR][/HR]​


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## vwgolfer (Dec 27, 2000)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (stebed)*

I've had three different types of Hakkapeliittas, and I recommend them absolutely, without reservation. On my 1986 Saab 900, I had a set of old Hakkapeliitta 10s. Two were used, and two I bought new. (I was trying to economize.) At the time, I has a set of Pirelli (for Sears) "HP" tires. The difference with the Hakkas was phenomenal. Even after three Winters, the cupped Hakka 10s were so stable in Winter it made the SAAB boring to drive. I couldn't do any fun maneuvers. (Back then, Saabs' handbrakes worked the front wheels! What fun is that??)
On my 1995 Saab 900S, I had a set of Hakkapeliitta NRW "Four-Season" tires. They, too were phenomonal in the snow, but unlike so-called "all-season" tires, the NRWs could be used in the Summer--AND winter.
On my 2000 Golf I have a set of Hakkapeliitta 1s. The Continental CH95s that came on the car weren't up to the job of keeping the Golf on firm footing during a Minnesota winter. I love these Hakkapeliitta tires! Get some!


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## vw'r'us (Mar 8, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (kurumasuki)*

Go to Wheel & Tire Zone in Toronto. 416-288-1577 ask for Steve. CAD$125.00 each installation included (Hakka 1 195/65-15)...CAD$575.00 out-the-door & down-the-road. It's a bargain! Up here near Ottawa, local Nokian dealers want $160-170 per copy. I'm going to have them installed next time I'm in T.O. Also, they no longer sell the Q's due to poor performance in Ontario winters!!! In Montreal, Merson Auto sells them for CAD$149.00 installed.


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## vw'r'us (Mar 8, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (vw'r'us)*

Forgot to mention that studded tires are illegal in Ontario!


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## catalytic (Jul 31, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (Pimpster)*

quote:[HR][/HR]let it be known that I also sell Bridgestone but I DO NOT sell Blizzak's.[HR][/HR]​I won't hold that against you








quote:[HR][/HR]Appearently advertising worked on you but the fact are the facts. The Blizzak is good for the first 45% of its tread life, but then becomes an all-season tread compound(if they where to use the multi-cell compound through out the tire would wear out too fast) so after less then half of the tread is wore off there is little if any benefit over a conventional all-season.[HR][/HR]​That was almost a good point, but I won't concede this one to you. When you lose half of your tread depth, with any tire, your snow traction starts to go to sh*t anyways, regardless of your compound. I definitely wouldn't recommend anyone to keep their snows much longer after half the tread is gone anyways. I don't know why you're slamming Bridgestone and claiming people like me were misled by their advertising campaign, because in light of the fact that snows start becoming useless after half the tread is gone anyways, it is obvious that Bridgestone made a very intelligent decision to use a dual compound tread. 
quote:[HR][/HR]Now as far as your huge generalization of all snow tires goes, I am unsure of what you are saying??? So there are 3 types of snows?? that is news to me.[HR][/HR]​It shouldn't be if you've been following the winter tire market for the last decade. Granted, these are not "official tire types", but they are valid categorizations nevertheless, and they work very well to help people choose what kind of snow tire they need. If you weren't offended by my earlier dig at you, you might want to try this on your customers








quote:[HR][/HR]In your "maximum snow/ice" catagory I don't understand why you neglected to recommend any studded tires, its obvious you know a lot about tires and I am sure you realize the benefits of studs, and the only down fall is more road noise.[HR][/HR]​Ah, yes, I remember you pushing studs in this forum before. Fact is, studs are banned in many Canadian provinces and American states. I don't talk about studs because it is illegal where I live (Ontario). Now, granted, studs have their place, but generally, they are not necessary for the winter conditions most drivers drive in. That's also why I brought up the fact that a person should look at the conditions they most frequently drive in, and choose a type of snow tire that is appropriate. Studded Hakka 1's are at the extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to snow/ice traction requirement, so keep in mind that not everyone needs studded Hakka 1's.
quote:[HR][/HR]I don't care what you say you know studs are THE BEST SNOW TIRES.[HR][/HR]​For a specific requirement. Like I said before, not everyone has the same winter traction and performance requirements, and that means studded Haka 1's are NOT the best tire for the many drivers in the winter.
quote:[HR][/HR]Blizzak's advertising about the stopping on the ice rink proves nothing![HR][/HR]​Really? Well, the pleasure I had driving around in Blizzaks when I lived in Montreal says otherwise. Here are some excerpts from a study done by the Alaskan DOT:
quote:[HR][/HR]In one test near Fairbanks involving a sedan, a station wagon, and a van under generally icy road conditions (as opposed to the glare ice of a Zamboni-smoothed frozen lake, where studded tires performed best), the Blizzaks brought heavy rear-drive vehicles to a stop from 40 mph in 121 feet, as compared with 141 feet for studded tires and 179 feet for all-season tires. 
On bare pavement, the Blizzaks showed a 2-35 percent stopping-distance advantage over studded tires. In a test with one full-sized sedan, the studded tires had stopping distances more than 40 percent longer than the Blizzaks or the all-season tires. In some bare-pavement stopping tests, the all-season tires were marginally superior, and in other tests the Blizzak tires excelled.
The (Blizzaks) equaled the performance of studded tires in all (winter performance) categories except stopping and accelerating on ice, where it fell short by between 8 and 15 percent. (and you did mention that ice traction is not all it's cracked up to be)
Source: David Junge and Jian Lu of the University of Alaska's Engineering Department and David Esch of Alaska's Department of Transportation. "Evaluation of Winter Traction with Different Types of Tires," Transportation Research Board (74th Annual Meeting, January 22-28, 1995, Paper No. 95 0772).[HR][/HR]​ 
I'm sure you can paste a whole bunch of pro stud results as well, so let's not get into a stats war... just wanted to defend myself! 
quote:[HR][/HR] will I sell tires/make money from anyone at this site selling them tires? NO. I try to help them and point them in the right direction, having a profesional on there side with out the pressure of a sale is like a warm blanket in the cold business of retail. [HR][/HR]​Fair enough. I am sorry for hinting that you may be hyping the Nokians for financial gain. That was for fun, but it wasn't appropriate. I take it back.


[Modified by catalytic, 10:24 PM 10-24-2001]


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## vw'r'us (Mar 8, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (catalytic)*

Take a pill & relax....breathe deeply!!!! I think you're going a bit overboard....


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## catalytic (Jul 31, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (vw'r'us)*

Pill taken. It's all good. Me and Pimpster are just having a friendly debate


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## MEIN_VW (Jul 29, 2000)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (vw'r'us)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Forgot to mention that studded tires are illegal in Ontario![HR][/HR]​The Hakka 1's are studded but they don't come with studs here. The holes are in the tires to add the Eco-Stud system which of course would be illegal here. 
I got my Hakka 1's last winter at Newmarket Tire for about $130 each installed for 195/65-15.


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## Pimpster (Aug 12, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (catalytic)*

Well catalytic it is obvious I can not point you in the right direction, I must be doing something wrong, I sold less then 2 million dollars in tires last year. If I studdied in your school I could more then likely break that 2 million mark this year, dang it! Get serious and think white(that is a quote from a movie, don't start flaming me), some people like to believe what the believe I prefer the truth, and playing odds you are the only advocator for the blizzaks everyone else rants and raves about the nokians, so your right I don't know what I am talking about. In future posts I will no longer humor your remarks so please try not to get a rise out of me, that is a little childish. I have better things to do with my time, not too sure about you.


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## Pimpster (Aug 12, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (Pimpster)*

Oh yea one last thing, I have been in the tire business for over 10 years now and have never heard snow tires broke down the way you did(into 3 catagories), and trust me I have heard every snow tire pitch out there. So that is not an "industry standard" way of grading snows. Good day


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## vw'r'us (Mar 8, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (Pimpster)*

Can you feel the love??? I can feel the love!!!


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## Kyokushin (Oct 20, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (stebed)*

Michelin Guardex are the best. I have used them for two years now and they griup like hell in mud, rain, slush, snow, and ice. Hope this helps


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## Preppy (May 3, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (stebed)*

Hakkapeliitta Q's are the only way to go...















Reasonable tread wear







Incredible Snow/Ice traction







Maintain winter abilities thru tread wear 


[Modified by Preppy, 9:29 AM 10-25-2001]


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## vw'r'us (Mar 8, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (Preppy)*

If the Q's are so good, why are some tire dealers in Ontario refusing to sell them? Go with the Hakka 1 with studs or without.


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## MatchStick (Nov 16, 2000)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (stebed)*

I've always found people who sell tires, a lot like people who sell cars, don't know that much about tires. Oh well...


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## Barabbus (Oct 24, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (stebed)*

44" Super Swamper Boggers baby, paddle tires all the way.


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## vw'r'us (Mar 8, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (MatchStick)*

I guess that's true if you buys tires at Walmart, Kmart, or PriceClub. The guys I've spoken to at dedicated tire stores are generally well-informed once you get past the B.S.


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## vwgolfer (Dec 27, 2000)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (g-man_ae)*

quote:[HR][/HR]The November issue of *European Car* magazine has a good article on snow tires, covering


the workings and underlying technology of a winter tire
important points to consider in selecting, and driving on, winter tires
brief reviews (mostly speed ratings and sizes) of major manufacturers' winter tires, andsnow tire recommendations listed by automotive make.

And way in the back, in the classifieds section, I found an ad seeling Hakkapeliittas.
Hope this helps







[HR][/HR]​Some other things to consider are:
*Your Location:* Where you live has a huge impact on the sort of weather you get. Someone on the frigid, windswept plains of North Dakota probably has different winter tire needs than someone in southern Illinois. Do you live in a big city, a small town, or in a rural area? Someone out in the country, 40 miles from the nearest town has greatly different needs than someone who lives in downtown Minneapolis, and drives across town out of a heated underground garage.
*Your Car:* Someone with an Audi S4 will likely want different winter tires than someone driving a Vanagon. Wacky comparison, but you catch my drift (snow drift!







)


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (stebed)*

Lets be honest kids, if there was a magic answer out there everyone would use it. There is not a magic answer, there are just answers that work with specific questions. You guys should try a more practical arguement, like is smooth peanut butter better then crunchy....... hehe, have fun, it's why we're here.


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## scooter4343 (Jul 13, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (g-man_ae)*

Hakkas are awesome. Had on my Altima for 3 winters, have ordered 'em for my new Jetta. Wouldn't go through a Minneapolis winter without 'em. (Nope, I don't sell tires . . . work for a TV station.)


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## BananaCo (Sep 16, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (scooter4343)*

Just wondering, anybody here tried Dunlop wintersport M2s??
How are they?
I'm planning to get some...


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## catalytic (Jul 31, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (g-man_ae)*

quote:[HR][/HR]... I like to ski, and thus plan to drive to snowy places like Big Bear and Tahoe. I figure the summer performance tires that I'd run in LA would be worthless in snow-covered mountains. Does this mean I have to change to winter tires before every ski trip, and back from them after every trip?
Thing is, a buddy from St. Louis told me that winter tires on warm pavement will wear out in about 500 miles. So what do I do, as I drive from warm, sunny LA to Tahoe? Start with summer tires, pack a set of winter tires, and change them half way?








I know these sound like stupid questions, but like I said, I have no winter driving experience whatsoever.[HR][/HR]​Ah, yes. I see your problem. Carrying both summer and winter tires on a trip and changing them in mid-trip is something that the most hardcore, anal driving enthusiast would do. It's just not practical or convenient, though. I would recommend that you put your snows on separate rims, invest in a good torque wrench, and swap your tires before and after every trip. But even that may be too much trouble for some people, so I offer two solutions below.
It is true that certain snow tires wear out extremely quickly in hot, dry road conditions, but your friend is exaggerating when he says 500 miles. Nevertheless, we all get the point. Hot, dry roads and very soft tread compounds don't mix. Now which types of snow tires are susceptible to this? Yes, that's right, the Blizzaks. Their soft multicell compound is purposely made very soft and porous to grip on slick and wet winter roads, but they are darn near worthless on hot, dry roads. This is a prime example of how different types of snow tires are designed for different road conditions. Let it be known that the Blizzaks are pure winter weather tires only. Other soft compound snows like the Hakka 1 and Q, Aplin, and pretty much any Q rated high silica compound snow tire with "ice" in its name will also wear more quickly in hot, dry condition, although not nearly as bad as the Blizzaks.
So, what snow tires should you get then? 
Solution 1: One that is designed with dry road usage in mind. If you are lazy and don't want to swap before/after every trip, get a Maximum Dry Performance category tire (see my post above for a list of models). Just know that you will be reducing their lifespan. The Pirelli and Dunlops are probably the most proven for this application, and I have had a very positive personal experience with the Pirelli Winter 210 Asimetrico that I even used for several months of the SUMMER in Toronto. Those Asimetrico handled as good as any all season tire in the dry -- no joke -- and were "acceptable" in the snow. For you Nokian fans out there, the NRW would be a good choice here. Now your heavy snow/ice traction capability won't be nearly as good as with the Maximum Snow/Ice traction tires, but it will be good enough for the occasional ski trip. Just be careful when you're driving on the roads near the ski hills. 
Solution 2: If the distance to the ski hills is not too great, and you want better grip up there, the Michelin Arctic Alpins would be a better choice due to their superior snow/ice traction. However, you MUST swap these off when you get back home unless you want excessive wear.


[Modified by catalytic, 7:35 AM 10-27-2001]


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## catalytic (Jul 31, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (BananaCo)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Just wondering, anybody here tried Dunlop wintersport M2s??
How are they?
I'm planning to get some...[HR][/HR]​From what I have heard, these handle almost as good as any all season tire would on dry pavement, but are slightly noisier. Most people love them.
I am thinking of getting the WinterSport M2's myself. However, I am split between these and the Alpins. Most of the time in T.O. we don't really need anything more than the M2's if you stick to the main roads and highways. However, just know that they won't handle the nasty stuff as good as say the Michelin Alpins. I know the Alpins won't handle as well as the M2's on dry roads, but my conservative side makes me lean towards the higher snow traction of the Alpins...
I'll tell you what, though. If I had a quattro or a Quaiffe LSD, I'd get the M2's for sure.


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## catalytic (Jul 31, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (Kyokushin)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Michelin Guardex are the best. I have used them for two years now and they griup like hell in mud, rain, slush, snow, and ice. Hope this helps







[HR][/HR]​You mean Yokohama Guardex? Absolutely. They have phenomenal snow/ice traction. But they also are poor handlers on dry roads.


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## Bimmer (Dec 15, 1999)

*ice compounds in the dry are doable*

You can get by starting out your trip on Blizzak types *IF* you accelerate, brake, and corner like Grandma; this does not mean you can't go fast, just don't push it getting there. Of course, give yourself extra following distance or else you'll be kicking in ABS almost ALL the time. Shoot for travel on rainy days, much less wear.








Gary


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## GeoffD (Aug 13, 2001)

*Re: ice compounds in the dry are doable (Bimmer)*

Just thought I'd point out that the Atlanta guy moving to LA probably hasn't experienced chain restrictions. In California mountain country, they assume all the Californians driving up from the warm lowlands don't have a clue how to drive on snow. If there's the slightest amount of snow on the road, they force you to put on chains to keep all those Dodge Caravans from going 75 mph. For the occasional ski trip from LA, it's pointless to have much better than a good quality all season tire since you'll be trashing your wheel wells with chains anyways if there's snow on the roads.


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## catalytic (Jul 31, 2001)

*Re: ice compounds in the dry are doable (GeoffD)*

Interesting. So what do people do when they get to the mountain and it's snowing? Stop on the side of the road and put on their chains? What a PITA that California legislation is.


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## GeoffD (Aug 13, 2001)

*Re: ice compounds in the dry are doable (catalytic)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Interesting. So what do people do when they get to the mountain and it's snowing? Stop on the side of the road and put on their chains? What a PITA that California legislation is.[HR][/HR]​That's exactly right. Oregon is the same way. There's a flashing chain restriction sign at a pullout area and a CALTRANS or CHIPS guy is there waving the SUVs on and making all the 2wd cars put on chains. You can have snowtires that will let you climb the side of a building and you still need to put on chains. If you don't have chains, you have to buy them at a big markup from a local gas station. There's a cottage industry of people at chain pullouts who will put on or take off chains for you for a fee.
California has several levels of chain restriction:
1- Dry Bare Roads... no restriction at all. Carrying chains recommended
2- Slightly snowy roads... Mud & Snow rated tires required, otherwise chains
3 - Very snowy roads... Chains on 2wd cars required.
4 - Hugely snowy roads... Road closed to 2wd cars. Chains on 4wd cars required.
5 - Road Closed
The Sierras get snow in 3 or 4 foot gobs. I've been out in a level 4 chain restriction in an SUV and the snow was breaking over the hood of the truck. Road clearance in that condition RULES. A VW with chains or even an AWD Audi wouldn't stand a chance. 
As far as I can tell, most California drivers completely suck at driving in snow since it never happens at home. It's incredible how many morons turn their SUVs upside-down in the median strip. They don't seem to understand that when you touch the brakes, an SUV is no better than any other 5,000 pound hunk of metal. The chain restriction also acts to slow the trucks down to 40 mph. The downhill from the Donner Pass down to Auburn must be 60 miles and the truckers will do 80 mph all the way down it in any road condition you can imagine.


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## catalytic (Jul 31, 2001)

*Re: ice compounds in the dry are doable (GeoffD)*

Hmm... well, it does make sense to have restrictions if the snow is that severe. I didn't know the weather could get that freaky in California... I guess it's all about the elevation. Speaking of truckers, they are a crazy bunch, aren't they? I see truckers going above the speed limit all the time in near blizzard conditions. Of course, I'm trying to stay close enough so I can use their tail lights have a Rudolph-like guide so I don't drive off the road, but they are going so fast that following them is hazardous to your health as well.


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## germanrox (Mar 30, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (stebed)*

So what rim/tyre combo would be good on a 95 vr6 sitting on a cupkit?? I live fairly close to sealevel so I get mostly slush and light snow, but I'm close enough to the foothills/mountains to be able to get into some deep stuff. Thanks, and yes I can feel the love in this post!














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## GeoffD (Aug 13, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (germanrox)*

Stanwood, Wa? My sister lives 1 1/2 hours north of you in Vancouver. Some 15' outrigger pontoons and a 30 hp outboard engine might be the hot setup to get you through the puddles. You guys live in some serious wet country.








Seriously, I'd think you'd want to optimize for wet road driving since you get so much of it. Some narrow (185 or less) wheels might be less prone to hydroplane. Narrow is also good in snow. You don't get the pot hole problem we see in the Northeast so you don't have to run 15" steel wheels like I do. No matter what, don't get studded snowtires. You'll be doing pirouettes down the highway in the rain. There are probably 10 agressive all season tires that would work for you since you get the same weather they see in parts of Europe in the winter.


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## germanrox (Mar 30, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (GeoffD)*

Don't even get me started about the rain here! It's basically crap from August till the following May or so. Snow is unpredictable, some years it just rains, and some years we get snow off and on for 2 months.







So 185 tyres would work fairly well then? What about rim selection, 14", 15"? What kind of cost am I looking at here for wheel/tyre? Actually Stanwood sits below sealevel, only protected by some ***** (ha!) and you actually can motor about town in a dingy some years! The Highschool has sandbaging as community service..... it's wet here


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## GeoffD (Aug 13, 2001)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (germanrox)*

The reason you go to smaller diameter rims is to get more protection from pot holes. In the half-dozen times I've driven around where you live, it seemed that winter doesn't trash your roads... the ground doesn't freeze very often. If that's the case, you can run pretty much whatever you want. With 15" wheels, you'll find countless decent choices in tire. With 17" wheels, the selection will narrow considerably and the price of tires will go up. It's also tough to find 17" wheels that are narrow enough for your application. If you drop down to 14", you'll have so much sidewall that your VW will handle like your father's Oldsmobile. 
I'd start by trying to find a deal on some nice used 15" wheels. You might find a crashed VW in a junk yard that has nice 15" rims that'll take a 185 or 195. You can also surf eBay and all sorts of online classifieds but beware that shipping can run you $50+. I think you'd be crazy to buy new ones unless they're steel. Everybody will point you at a different tire. I'm a Nokian bigot so I'd suggest the Nokian NRW. That'll cost about $85 per tire mounted. There are probably a dozen other agressive all season tires out there that would work equally well for you and some will cost significantly less. I don't shop based on rain performance so I'm not really up on what's best at the different price points.


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## GeoffD (Aug 13, 2001)

*Re: ice compounds in the dry are doable (g-man_ae)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I see... so when I go skiing out there, I guess I'm forgetting about snow tires and instead renting a 4x4 truck for the weekend...?[HR][/HR]​Nope. If you ski a lot in the Sierras, just be prepared to get stuck crawling under your car to put on chains every once in a while. My friends who ski Tahoe every weekend have coveralls, gloves, and chains in the trunk and expect to have to put on chains several times per season. As I said, you can pay somebody at the chain pullout to put 'em on for you and stay toasty-warm inside your car.
The 4x4 is more useful at 7am after a huge dump. You'll be sitting there waiting for the plow so you can get out of the parking lot. The 4x4 owner will be in the ski resort parking lot booted up ready for first chair and face shots in waist-deep powder. Weekend skiers only get a few of those days per season at best and it'd be painful to miss them.


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## mphat (Feb 20, 1999)

*Re: What is a good winter tire? (GeoffD)*

Does anyone have any experience with the BFGoodrich Winter Slalom either with or without studs? I can get 205/55/16's at the local Costco for $76. We don't get much snow in my immediate location because we're only 300' above sealevel but if you go 20 miles in any direction you'll be 1000 feet and if your heading West you soon have to cross the Cascade mountains. We tend to get a couple days of freezing rain each year that are far worse to drive in than the snowy days.
I'd appreciate any info on this particular tire.
Thanks


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