# **Upgrade Alternator on '06 Passat 2.0T for 1,000 Watt System?!**



## hunger4more80 (Mar 14, 2010)

This is what I'll be putting in my car:

Pioneer Avh-4300DVD 
2 12" Rockford Fosgate Power Series T112D4 Subs
Rockford Fosgate Punch Series P1000-1bd Mono Amp
Rockford Fosgate 2 Farad Hybrid Digital Cap

I have a few questions, does my alternator need to be swapped out for a higher output one? I'm also interested in upgrading the battery but I've noticed/read that Optima batteries don't fit my b6 Passat. Really don't know where else to look for a deep cycle battery. Don't even have a clue on the amps on my stock alternator. Any info would truly be greatly appreciated. Just wanna do it right the first time, thanks all.


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

hunger4more80 said:


> This is what I'll be putting in my car:
> 
> Pioneer Avh-4300DVD
> 2 12" Rockford Fosgate Power Series T112D4 Subs
> ...


1. Answering a question with no information as far as the amperage of the alternator that's in your car.
2. There are different sizes of Optima batteries, one of which will fit your vehicle.


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## hunger4more80 (Mar 14, 2010)

Sorry if I didn't clearly specify however, my alternator is stock oem on a 2006 Passat 2.0T. One of my original questions was if anyone knew the actual amp rating on an oem alternator in the 2.0T. As far as the Optima Battery issue, I've read that you can find a yellow top w/ similar dimensions to OEM, the problem consists of positive terminal issues & actually mounting/bolting the battery down. I'd love to see someone post & say the "I did it, it worked for me.." line but I just haven't had any luck on finding ppl who successfully did so. On a side note, I am thinking of the idea of just setting my amp at 2 ohms which is about 500 watts RMS, again; still don't know if this would be too much of a hog on my vehicles electrical system.


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

hunger4more80 said:


> Sorry if I didn't clearly specify however, my alternator is stock oem on a 2006 Passat 2.0T. One of my original questions was if anyone knew the actual amp rating on an oem alternator in the 2.0T. As far as the Optima Battery issue, I've read that you can find a yellow top w/ similar dimensions to OEM, the problem consists of positive terminal issues & actually mounting/bolting the battery down. I'd love to see someone post & say the "I did it, it worked for me.." line but I just haven't had any luck on finding ppl who successfully did so. On a side note, I am thinking of the idea of just setting my amp at 2 ohms which is about 500 watts RMS, again; still don't know if this would be too much of a hog on my vehicles electrical system.


You don't SET your amp to a certain resistance. The resistance is dependent on how the sub(s) CAN and ARE wired. Optimas come with standard and reversed terminals. IIRC the last Passat I did for amp/subs the battery was held on by a small plate with a bolt, which the optima can incorporate.


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## hunger4more80 (Mar 14, 2010)

Gotcha, if you can't tell by now...I will be having the setup installed professionally lol. Can you confirm if that Passat your speaking of was a b6 Passat? Perhaps my best bet would be doing the 2 ohms at 500 watts instead of 1 ohm 1,000 watt. Don't wanna damage the electrical system. Thanks for your help.


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

hunger4more80 said:


> Gotcha, if you can't tell by now...I will be having the setup installed professionally lol. Can you confirm if that Passat your speaking of was a b6 Passat? Perhaps my best bet would be doing the 2 ohms at 500 watts instead of 1 ohm 1,000 watt. Don't wanna damage the electrical system. Thanks for your help.


Yes, it was an 07 IIRC. Are they the new T1's? Because 500W RMS is not going to be adequate for 2 new or old T1's.

Not to mention they are DVC 4 ohm woofers (the ones you mentioned) meaning you can only wire each of them to 2 (parallel) or 8 (series) ohms. Together you can only wire them to 1 ohm (parallel) and 4 ohm (series). Those subs are ~700-800w rms (IIRC).


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## hunger4more80 (Mar 14, 2010)

They are '07 model T1's. YIKES!? So your telling me 2 ohm is outta the question? I can only do 1 or 4 ohm?


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

hunger4more80 said:


> They are '07 model T1's. YIKES!? So your telling me 2 ohm is outta the question? I can only do 1 or 4 ohm?


Unless you get the DVC 2 ohm versions of those subwoofers, no.


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## hunger4more80 (Mar 14, 2010)

Thanks for the info. I gotta rethink my gameplan now, lol. Don't really wanna run at 1 ohm because these bad boys are so strong. I think at 4 ohms, the amp only sends out like 250 watts :-/


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

hunger4more80 said:


> Thanks for the info. I gotta rethink my gameplan now, lol. Don't really wanna run at 1 ohm because these bad boys are so strong. I think at 4 ohms, the amp only sends out like 250 watts :-/


That's correct. Did you already buy everything?


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## hunger4more80 (Mar 14, 2010)

I actually have had the subs for over 3 & 1/2 years now. Had them serviced from RF about a year & a half ago. Just recently sent in my p1000.2 amp to RF & they replaced it with an '11 p1000 - 1 channel amp. Spent $176 on the fee from RF when the amp is about $720.00 msrp so I lucked out. My whole fear is 1,000 watts being too much on tha car's elect. system & 250 watts x 1 doesn't even sound worth it? Thinking of selling my subs & getting a pair of p3's (2 ohm) not sure.....I appreciate you helping me out on this thread tho. My minds going back & fourth lol. Purchase a yellow top & run at 1 ohm & hope the alternator will be fine? The capacitor should help I suppose....ah decisions, decisions....


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

hunger4more80 said:


> I actually have had the subs for over 3 & 1/2 years now. Had them serviced from RF about a year & a half ago. Just recently sent in my p1000.2 amp to RF & they replaced it with an '11 p1000 - 1 channel amp. Spent $176 on the fee from RF when the amp is about $720.00 msrp so I lucked out. My whole fear is 1,000 watts being too much on tha car's elect. system & 250 watts x 1 doesn't even sound worth it? Thinking of selling my subs & getting a pair of p3's (2 ohm) not sure.....I appreciate you helping me out on this thread tho. My minds going back & fourth lol. Purchase a yellow top & run at 1 ohm & hope the alternator will be fine? The capacitor should help I suppose....ah decisions, decisions....


If you get two P3's, you are going to use the same amp anyways at the same power. P3's especially the new redesigned ones, are 600W RMS a piece. the P1000.1BD is rated @ 1000W RMS @ 1ohm (typically 1200-1400W actual power - mind you all of this is @ 14.4v).


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## hunger4more80 (Mar 14, 2010)

Well since the RMS ratings are actually higher than what RF says, 4 ohm would be closer to 450-600 watts, no?


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

hunger4more80 said:


> Well since the RMS ratings are actually higher than what RF says, 4 ohm would be closer to 450-600 watts, no?


It varies from amp to amp. It should have came with a birth sheet. I don't think it would be double @ 4 ohms. Typically the lower the resistance the more, over the rated power, you get. I'd say @ 4 ohms, they typically gain 50-75w


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## hunger4more80 (Mar 14, 2010)

Going to try & do 4 ohms. Will keep you all posted. On a side note; I was told in order to put in an optima battery, I am to purchase a new terminal, the biggest one possible & cut the old one off on the two positive cables....


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## quality_sound (May 20, 2002)

You do not need a new battery, alternator, or that capacitor. Do the big 3 upgrade and you'll be more than fine.


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

quality_sound said:


> You do not need a new battery, alternator, or that capacitor. Do the big 3 upgrade and you'll be more than fine.


Capacitor, definitely not. Battery, yes, big 3 yes, alternator, depends on what he is running.

Pretty sure they have 120A alt. in that car. A car's alternator typically has about 20-25% headroom over what is needed for the car. If he is going to run both T1's to it's RMS power, the amperage draw from the amp alone will be pretty decent, and bring it into the upper echelon of admissible strain on the alt.


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## hunger4more80 (Mar 14, 2010)

& what if I was to just run 1 sub?! Hmmmm...


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## quality_sound (May 20, 2002)

Ok, the ONLY thing a larger battery will do is give him more key-off parking lot listening time. Period. While the car is running the battery is nothing but a load. Assuming his current battery is not failing, installing an Optima will do NOTHING for him. If he's hell-bent in changing his battery, a BatCap 800 would be a much better option. 

Why are you worried about max draw? He's going to listen to music. Music is dynamic. His amps will rarely, if ever, make their maximum power. Not to mention, his amps are Class D. It's not like he's running a large Class AB amp like a 4000SE or something. 

Even if all he had was a 65A alternator, as long as his cables were correctly sized, grounded correctly, and the big 3 done, he would be fine. I know, I've done it. A lot. If he does what I say and he has problems, I'll eat my subs. Literally. 

OP - Running one sub would lower the current draw since you'd either only be running one sub amp Even if you ran one amp per coil each amp would still have a lighter load than before. Either configuration would draw less. Another thing to consider, adding a second amp only gives you 3dB over the max volume potential of a single amp setup. Unless you're running the at full power (you won't be) you'll never see that 3dB.


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

quality_sound said:


> Ok, the ONLY thing a larger battery will do is give him more key-off parking lot listening time. Period. While the car is running the battery is nothing but a load. Assuming his current battery is not failing, installing an Optima will do NOTHING for him. If he's hell-bent in changing his battery, a BatCap 800 would be a much better option.
> 
> Why are you worried about max draw? He's going to listen to music. Music is dynamic. His amps will rarely, if ever, make their maximum power. Not to mention, his amps are Class D. It's not like he's running a large Class AB amp like a 4000SE or something.
> 
> ...


Never said max draw. my figures were at ~ 25% duty cycle (as that's the rough estimate of the duty cycle of normal music).
The amp is NOT a full class D, it's a Class B/Class D hybrid...It's more *efficient*...it still doesn't just create energy that it doesn't have. I'm sure you know ohms law, and I'm sure you know that Class D amps are switching not digital amps. They require less of a heatsink (because of their efficiency they do not produce as much heat in production) which makes them smaller.

I'm referencing a better battery for 1. consumption when the car is off and 2. because if his alternator cannot keep up with the amperage draw its going to draw from the battery, if it draws from the battery and the battery goes below it's operating voltage it will not be able to fully recharge (as it is not a deep cycle). 

SO what you are saying is that just upgrading the big three and making sure his power and ground wires are of sufficient size (and quality) that a lack of amperage won't affect anything?

Unless I read what you put wrong, I find that statement disturbing.

Running one sub MAY have less of a current draw depending on what you're running. Saying definitely yes it will have less draw is absent minded. If you're referencing running 1 T1 at it's suggested power opposed to 2 T1's at it's suggested power, then yes, there will be less current draw.


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## hunger4more80 (Mar 14, 2010)

Truly am loving all this info I'm getting to soak up. I'm definitely going to be telling my installer to do the big 3. I'm still on the fence to whether or not I should buy an optima yellow top. Just don't wanna buy it & go through the BS & the ppl tell me they were unsuccessful in installing it. 

On a side note, do I smell a debate? :laugh:


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

hunger4more80 said:


> Truly am loving all this info I'm getting to soak up. I'm definitely going to be telling my installer to do the big 3. I'm still on the fence to whether or not I should buy an optima yellow top. Just don't wanna buy it & go through the BS & the ppl tell me they were unsuccessful in installing it.
> 
> On a side note, do I smell a debate? :laugh:


Search all of the unsuccessful optima installs on the MK4, mine was successful first shot. I got the appropriate battery, fit not problem.

No debate really.


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## quality_sound (May 20, 2002)

NFrazier said:


> Never said max draw. my figures were at ~ 25% duty cycle (as that's the rough estimate of the duty cycle of normal music).
> The amp is NOT a full class D, it's a Class B/Class D hybrid...It's more *efficient*...it still doesn't just create energy that it doesn't have. I'm sure you know ohms law, and I'm sure you know that Class D amps are switching not digital amps. They require less of a heatsink (because of their efficiency they do not produce as much heat in production) which makes them smaller.[\quote]
> 
> I know it's a hybrid. But as all hybrids operate, it will stay in Class B until it's making roughly 10 Watts at which point it switches to Class D. It's going to spend most of the time in Class D.
> ...


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

quality_sound said:


> I know it's a hybrid. But as all hybrids operate, it will stay in Class B until it's making roughly 10 Watts at which point it switches to Class D. It's going to spend most of the time in Class D.


You do realize that just because it's a class D that it doesn't create power. Go read up on ohm's law, do some math, and let me know what you come up with.



quality_sound said:


> So you're saying that if you run a battery below it's nominal operating Voltage it will never fully charge again??? Oy... You need to relearn your battery basics as that is simply not true. While running a standard starting battery completely flat can hurt it, simply running it below it's nominal operating Voltage will not. It happens a lot more than you'd think, especially when it's cold outside.


No, I'm not saying running it below it's nominal operating voltage will cause that, CONSISTENTLY running the battery flat or close to dead will affect the batteries ability to fully recharge.



quality_sound said:


> I didn't say that. I didn't even imply it. I'm saying that he's not lacking for amperage in the first place. Case in point, head over to the Arc Audio website and take a look at their team cars (My old wagon might even still be in there) and let me know if you see a single car with an upgraded alternator. Specifically, look at Fred's 2000 Passat sedan. It has 28, yes 28, BatCap batteries (some 400s and some 800s), and nothing but SE amps, including a 4000SE... All off the original stock alternator and he has ZERO charging problems. We bench tested his particular 4000SE and it was making about a bit over 6000 Watts driving the 3 15-inch subs in his car. Fred, BTW, is Arc's marketing director and the team director. To say his system sees abuse that the OP's will not is the understatement of the century.
> 
> You can continue to argue the semantics of the theory until you're blue in the face. In practice, you're wrong.


You're talking apples and oranges.

Of course having ****ing 28 batcaps with a stock alternator is going to compensate. 

the recharge and discharge rate of a batcap is A LOT faster then a factory battery. Each having a max output of 400-800A a piece.

When you have a factory battery that does NOT have a quick discharge and recharge rate, coupled with the fact that the equipment would be pulling more amperage then the alternator can supply. First, you're going to start to discharge the battery - once the battery can no longer supply the proper amperage the current is coming straight from the alternator - which, if it cannot keep up - will suffer as well.



quality_sound said:


> Apparently you read it wrong.
> 
> No, it's a definite. Don't believe me? Do the test yourself. I already have, more than once. Run 2 subs at a volume level and measure the power going to the subs. Now disconnect one sub and do it again at the same volume level. The single sub WILL be killing less than the pair.


No ****. That's not what I said. Just talking numbers, not equating music duty cycle - If you took 2 T1's and wired it in parallel to 1 ohm and attached it to the p1000bd, the amp will supply 1200-1400WRMS (the average actual power produced via the numerous birth sheets I've seen of these). If you take 1 T1 (which in this case would be wired in parallel to 2 ohms) and attached it to the same amp it'd produce ~600WRMS per birth sheet). Obviously producing HALF, or more then half, of the wattage will affect the amperage it needs to produce said. :sly:


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## quality_sound (May 20, 2002)

NFrazier said:


> You do realize that just because it's a class D that it doesn't create power. Go read up on ohm's law, do some math, and let me know what you come up with.


Who said anything about _creating_ power. The topology is important because Class D _draws less current_ at a given power level than an A, B, or AB. Why do you keep prattling about creating power? It's the second or third time you've brought it up. 



> No, I'm not saying running it below it's nominal operating voltage will cause that, CONSISTENTLY running the battery flat or close to dead will affect the batteries ability to fully recharge.


Agreed, unless it's a deep cycle which you also said. I'M saying that he is not going to flatten his battery unless he's doing a lot of parking lot listening.



> You're talking apples and oranges.
> 
> Of course having ****ing 28 batcaps with a stock alternator is going to compensate.
> 
> the recharge and discharge rate of a batcap is A LOT faster then a factory battery. Each having a max output of 400-800A a piece.


Ugh, try to keep up. The point was if his stock 90A alternator can supply 28 batteries as well as FIVE Class AB amps, one of which being a 4000SE, with no problems, then the OP isn't going to have any issues with his setup. 



> When you have a factory battery that does NOT have a quick discharge and recharge rate, coupled with the fact that the equipment would be pulling more amperage then the alternator can supply. First, you're going to start to discharge the battery - once the battery can no longer supply the proper amperage the current is coming straight from the alternator - which, if it cannot keep up - will suffer as well.


The charge/discharge rate of the battery has NOTHING to do with the current capacity of the alternator, which is the ONLY thing we're concerned about right now. Yes, on the VERY rare occasions he exceeds the output capability of the alternator the battery will need to pick up the slack. My point, since you can't grasp it, is that won't happen enough for it to be an issue. 



> No ****. That's not what I said. Just talking numbers, not equating music duty cycle - If you took 2 T1's and wired it in parallel to 1 ohm and attached it to the p1000bd, the amp will supply 1200-1400WRMS (the average actual power produced via the numerous birth sheets I've seen of these). If you take 1 T1 (which in this case would be wired in parallel to 2 ohms) and attached it to the same amp it'd produce ~600WRMS per birth sheet). Obviously producing HALF, or more then half, of the wattage will affect the amperage it needs to produce said. :sly:


No it won't. It will be _capable_ of making that much, _into a 1 ohm resistive load_ Speakers are NOT resistive during operation. You will rarely, if ever, make the power on those birth sheets, which are made using resistive loads with a 14.4V power supply. Most people don't see over 13.8V at the amp terminals.

Again, since you are missing the details, if you had 2 T1s at 1 Ohm or 1 T1 at 1 Ohm (which according to you would draw the same power) what I said was that they will not. Even though they are the same load the single sub WILL draw less power. It's a fact.


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

quality_sound said:


> Agreed, unless it's a deep cycle which you also said. I'M saying that he is not going to flatten his battery unless he's doing a lot of parking lot listening.


Well apparently we were arguing the same point and didn't know.





quality_sound said:


> Ugh, try to keep up. The point was if his stock 90A alternator can supply 28 batteries as well as FIVE Class AB amps, one of which being a 4000SE, with no problems, then the OP isn't going to have any issues with his setup.


The issue I had with you analogy is that there are 28 batteries in the car, yes with 5 amps. The liklihood of those 28 batteries (14v batteries iirc, designed for these applications) are not analogous with a factory charging system. The factory 90 amp alternator is yes, going to have to do some work, but the brunt of the work, in that setup, comes from the 28 batteries that are _capable_ of 16,800A (at it's peak).




quality_sound said:


> The charge/discharge rate of the battery has NOTHING to do with the current capacity of the alternator, which is the ONLY thing we're concerned about right now. Yes, on the VERY rare occasions he exceeds the output capability of the alternator the battery will need to pick up the slack. My point, since you can't grasp it, is that won't happen enough for it to be an issue.


I'm not saying that it will consistently be an issue, nor am I saying it will consistently happen as the projected current draw, while listening to music, isn't going to be excessively over/barely, if at all, over the capacity of the alternator. I'm saying that if it does happen consistently, there is going to be issues if the charging system cannot keep up. Especially if there is lackluster installation techniques.



quality_sound said:


> No it won't. It will be _capable_ of making that much, _into a 1 ohm resistive load_ Speakers are NOT resistive during operation. You will rarely, if ever, make the power on those birth sheets, which are made using resistive loads with a 14.4V power supply. Most people don't see over 13.8V at the amp terminals.


Obviously you will never make the power on the birth sheets. Especially since they are using a 14.4v constant power source and they typically use sine waves to test them, not a source as dynamic and possessing less duty cycle as music does. Like I had wrote, I was just using comparative numbers, not stating that it would actually happen, maybe I didn't make myself clear. 



quality_sound said:


> Again, since you are missing the details, if you had 2 T1s at 1 Ohm or 1 T1 at 1 Ohm (which according to you would draw the same power) what I said was that they will not. Even though they are the same load the single sub WILL draw less power. It's a fact.


You are correct, I'm not disputing that. However, in THIS APPLICATION using 1 4ohm DVC T1 opposed to using 2 4 ohm DVC T1's IS going to be a different story.


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## quality_sound (May 20, 2002)

NFrazier said:


> Well apparently we were arguing the same point and didn't know.


It happens. :laugh:



> The issue I had with you analogy is that there are 28 batteries in the car, yes with 5 amps. The liklihood of those 28 batteries (14v batteries iirc, designed for these applications) are not analogous with a factory charging system. The factory 90 amp alternator is yes, going to have to do some work, but the brunt of the work, in that setup, comes from the 28 batteries that are _capable_ of 16,800A (at it's peak).


No, when the car is running, the alternator is still doing all of the work. Those batteries, unless the car is off, are nothing but an additional load. In addition to having to power those 5 amps it also has to charge 28 batteries. If it can do that with no problems, 2 amps and 1 battery is not going to be an issue.



> I'm not saying that it will consistently be an issue, nor am I saying it will consistently happen as the projected current draw, while listening to music, isn't going to be excessively over/barely, if at all, over the capacity of the alternator. I'm saying that if it does happen consistently, there is going to be issues if the charging system cannot keep up. Especially if there is lackluster installation techniques.


Maybe it's just me, but I NEVER recommend someone spend money "just in case" something that will probably never be an issue, could possibly happen. 



> Obviously you will never make the power on the birth sheets. Especially since they are using a 14.4v constant power source and they typically use sine waves to test them, not a source as dynamic and possessing less duty cycle as music does. Like I had wrote, I was just using comparative numbers, not stating that it would actually happen, maybe I didn't make myself clear.


Fair enough, but you did always use those max numbers in your calculations which was part of what I had an issue with. If you go with a 25% duty cycle on the amps I think we can both agree that 2 250-Watt amps (25% of 1000 Watts x 2 amps) is not going to cause any problems. 



> You are correct, I'm not disputing that. However, in THIS APPLICATION using 1 4ohm DVC T1 opposed to using 2 4 ohm DVC T1's IS going to be a different story.


I was pointing out that even in the worst case scenario a single sub setup will not pull as much as a dual sub setup. The subs he has just further prove the point.


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

quality_sound said:


> No, when the car is running, the alternator is still doing all of the work. Those batteries, unless the car is off, are nothing but an additional load. In addition to having to power those 5 amps it also has to charge 28 batteries. If it can do that with no problems, 2 amps and 1 battery is not going to be an issue.


Correct, UNLESS the alternator cannot keep up. In that case the charge stored in the battery will be used to compensate. I'm saying the the 28 battery scenario the chances of those batteries (designed for this specific application) not being "dipped into" for compensation is slim and second the chances that those 28 batteries being "dipped into" enough to render them useless and see the effect of inadequacy is slim.

Yes the battery supplies power to start the vehicle and the alternator does the rest from there, but in the case of 28 batteries, those batteries are not designed to start the car, they are designed to power the audio equipment. It's like an ice cube tray. There are 12 (or whatever) slots, if you start pouring water into one of those slots, once that is full the water starts to migrate to other slots and fill those up. In the case of the 28 batteries its almost the opposite. Even if you have someone with a straw taking out a little water here and a little water there, you'll almost never get to the point where the faucet can't keep up to the consumption because of the vast amount of water that is already there. 

Not to mention the batcaps have a lower internal resistance, to recharge them takes less "effort" then a standard battery.

I hope that came out as I intended.



quality_sound said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I NEVER recommend someone spend money "just in case" something that will probably never be an issue, could possibly happen.


I'm not saying he needs to go and spend major money. But what if something else fails causing an increase in resistance requiring more current to do the same job.

If you're on the cusp, then you'll start running into issues. This isn't a competition car, it's his daily driver (from what it sounds like). If there is an issue and something dies or malfunctions it's a bigger deal then if a comp car has an issue. 

A little "preventative maintenance" never hurt anyone. My motto is that it's always better to be safe then sorry.


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## quality_sound (May 20, 2002)

NFrazier said:


> Correct, UNLESS the alternator cannot keep up. In that case the charge stored in the battery will be used to compensate. I'm saying the the 28 battery scenario the chances of those batteries (designed for this specific application) not being "dipped into" for compensation is slim and second the chances that those 28 batteries being "dipped into" enough to render them useless and see the effect of inadequacy is slim.
> 
> Yes the battery supplies power to start the vehicle and the alternator does the rest from there, but in the case of 28 batteries, those batteries are not designed to start the car, they are designed to power the audio equipment. It's like an ice cube tray. There are 12 (or whatever) slots, if you start pouring water into one of those slots, once that is full the water starts to migrate to other slots and fill those up. In the case of the 28 batteries its almost the opposite. Even if you have someone with a straw taking out a little water here and a little water there, you'll almost never get to the point where the faucet can't keep up to the consumption because of the vast amount of water that is already there.
> 
> ...


I know what you're saying. However, you're still missing the point. If the stock 90A alternator on a 12-year old Passat can power 5 SEs making somewhere on the order of 10x the power as the OP is planning on, why do you think the OP will have a problem?



> I'm not saying he needs to go and spend major money. But what if something else fails causing an increase in resistance requiring more current to do the same job.
> 
> If you're on the cusp, then you'll start running into issues. This isn't a competition car, it's his daily driver (from what it sounds like). If there is an issue and something dies or malfunctions it's a bigger deal then if a comp car has an issue.
> 
> A little "preventative maintenance" never hurt anyone. My motto is that it's always better to be safe then sorry.


It's not like all of a sudden it'll die and leave him stranded. If the battery is starting to go south he'll notice things like hard starting well in advance of a failure. 

I agree that being prepared is best but you have to draw the line somewhere or the things I could suggest "to be safe" would cost him more than his car did. :laugh:


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

quality_sound said:


> It's not like all of a sudden it'll die and leave him stranded. If the battery is starting to go south he'll notice things like hard starting well in advance of a failure.
> 
> I agree that being prepared is best but you have to draw the line somewhere or the things I could suggest "to be safe" would cost him more than his car did. :laugh:


You say that. But you probably KNOW to notice signs of wear. I have dealt with SO MANY customers who don't notice, or if they do notice, they don't know it's an issue - they just think that's how it is when a car gets older.

And if the suggestions would cost more then the car did, they he got a crazy hella awesome deal on the car. :laugh:


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## quality_sound (May 20, 2002)

You make a good point but generally I don't group forum surfers into that bunch because they tend to be much more into their cars. The average owner has no idea car forums even exist. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## hunger4more80 (Mar 14, 2010)

once again, i need help from you two geniuses. the guy who will be installing my system in the car actually is the sponsor of this particular audio/electronics forum....their called enfig car stereo. anywho, i called him up & told him i want to do an upgrade on the "big 3" & his response to me was to find some links that detail exactly what items to use & so fourth & then he'll give me the updated quote. since you two both know a world full of info, anything i can send this guy to help? again, i appreciate all/any info & help....u guys really are appreciated.


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## quality_sound (May 20, 2002)

If your installer doesn't know what the big three is, you need to find a new installer. In short: 1) alternator positive to battery positive, 2) battery negative to chassis, and 3) engine ground to chassis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL-9o5kSgv4


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## hunger4more80 (Mar 14, 2010)

I thought that for a sec. However, I think he meant like what kind of materials to use. Maybe he was unsure of a certain gage? Beats me...


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## quality_sound (May 20, 2002)

I sure hope that's what he meant. lol

I have used up to 1/0 before but that was on cars sponsored by Monster Cable. Anything larger than 4 gauge runs into diminishing returns really quickly.


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

quality_sound said:


> I sure hope that's what he meant. lol
> 
> I have used up to 1/0 before but that was on cars sponsored by Monster Cable. Anything larger than 4 gauge runs into diminishing returns really quickly.


Yea. Typically I use 2-4 gauge. Not to mention trying to use anything above 2 gauge (larger wire) would be a bitch in certain situations in the engine bay.

I really hope he knows what the big 3 is. If he doesn't get someone else. He's going to have to remove the battery anyway to get through the firewall as those cars arn't too fun to get wire through.


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## hunger4more80 (Mar 14, 2010)

So for my particular setup, what Gauge do you suggest I use? Also, what could I expect in labor? Typically, how many hours to do big 3?

EDIT: Wish I lived closer to either of you's lmao. I'd say screw it & have you install it all.


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

hunger4more80 said:


> So for my particular setup, what Gauge do you suggest I use? Also, what could I expect in labor? Typically, how many hours to do big 3?
> 
> EDIT: Wish I lived closer to either of you's lmao. I'd say screw it & have you install it all.


It appears I am 5-6 hrs and he is across the pond. haha.

On that car, if he knew what he was doing, 1.5 hrs. (depending on the engine the alt may be harder to get at). The upgraded battery ground and engine ground is cake..mmm cake. 

Where I work it's $80 a hour. so $120 (if it takes him that long) - I only bill for the time I actually spend on the vehicle for "custom labor"


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

NFrazier said:


> It appears I am 5-6 hrs and he is across the pond. haha.
> 
> On that car, if he knew what he was doing, 1.5 hrs. (depending on the engine the alt may be harder to get at). The upgraded battery ground and engine ground is cake..mmm cake.
> 
> Where I work it's $80 a hour. so $120 (if it takes him that long) - I only bill for the time I actually spend on the vehicle for "custom labor"


4 should be more then efficient given the length of wire being used.


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## hunger4more80 (Mar 14, 2010)

Successfully got the Optima Yellow Top installed today, along w/ an APR Stage 1 Tune + revised oem diverter valve


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

hunger4more80 said:


> Successfully got the Optima Yellow Top installed today, along w/ an APR Stage 1 Tune + revised oem diverter valve


 Told ya, as long as u get the right battery, it fits. Good job!


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## hunger4more80 (Mar 14, 2010)

NFrazier said:


> Told ya, as long as u get the right battery, it fits. Good job!


YES SIR!!! Can honestly say that without your "nudge" you gave me concerning this issue, probably would of never tried due to the majority of ppl saying it couldn't be done. Also, exactly where is this shop you work at? Sent the installer a few emails regarding the big 3 upgrade & he has yet to contact me. It's been almost 3 days. Possibly might go elsewhere. I'm in NYC every week. I can't see you being too far away from NYC.


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

hunger4more80 said:


> YES SIR!!! Can honestly say that without your "nudge" you gave me concerning this issue, probably would of never tried due to the majority of ppl saying it couldn't be done. Also, exactly where is this shop you work at? Sent the installer a few emails regarding the big 3 upgrade & he has yet to contact me. It's been almost 3 days. Possibly might go elsewhere. I'm in NYC every week. I can't see you being too far away from NYC.


Believe it or not, it is. I'm about 45 minutes east of Providence, RI. My girlfriend has a '11 Cooper S and there was some Mini Rally on New Year's Eve and it was about a 4-5 hour drive to NYC WITHOUT traffic.


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