# Haldex Blue in: squirrely under hard accel. What can be done



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

The FrankenTT just got upgraded to the Haldex blue controller. On the test track, the car cannot hold its line when under WOT. The car weaves back and forth like the wheels are coming loose. Unnerving. I assume this is the rear differential not making up its mind about which side to put power to. So it applies it back and forth, making for terrible handling. Is this typical of these upgraded controllers?


----------



## trixx (Dec 23, 2002)

are you running a staggered tire setup or same size all around?

maybe its time for a rear diff


----------



## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Rear diff is open unless you added an LSD, so it's not sending power "back and forth." Tire size and age, suspension, road surface?

PS: Worst review/initial impression of a Haldex upgrade EVAR.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

well, I sure hope I can remedy this. And I completely feel like the square peg complaining like this. But the car was stable and "normal" under acceleration immediately prior. Tires are identical on all corners.

Is there a way to tell the Haldex clutch is actually engaging? Perhaps it's not doing so fully?... What do these cars feel like if they're simply FWD? With no fancy LSD or other? I mean, is it possible this is just torque steer caused by the power going only to one of the front wheels?

Another symptom under slightly lower load (running the turbo on actuator pressure): the power delivery is "lumpy", meaning I can feel the acceleration rate jumping while the engine's at WOT. It's like an invisible hand comes in and goes, "nudge....nudge...nudge".


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Very weird! There no "fancy LSD" in these cars unless you put one. As 20v pointed out the rear diff is open and the front has an Electronic Differential Lock (EDL) that works externally from the drivetrain. In FWD mode, at your power level, you'd be spinning wheels all day. I lost AWD at an event and even with 315 slicks, the front would spin hopelessly without steering input and going perfectly straight. 

You have something else going on, you said that it's squirrelly on the test track? Is that on throttle going straight or turning? Is it possible that you are describing the more aggressive rear engagement of the performance controller? Maybe you can make a video or try to explain a bit better because I'm not fully understanding the condition.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

This is happening under straight-line WOT while data logging. The power delivery destabilizes steering (is this torque steer?) while at he same time you can feel power engaging incrementally. If I didn't know better I'd say it's timing advance notching up, up, up. It's a similar sensation. But a timing up-tick feels gentler. 

So what symptoms do these cars exhibit when their Haldex oil is low? or when the Haldex pump is failing? Would the clutch engagement be spotty during a pull?


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> This is happening under straight-line WOT while data logging. The power delivery destabilizes steering (is this torque steer?) while at he same time you can feel power engaging incrementally. If I didn't know better I'd say it's timing advance notching up, up, up. It's a similar sensation. But a timing up-tick feels gentler.
> 
> So what symptoms do these cars exhibit when their Haldex oil is low? or when the Haldex pump is failing? Would the clutch engagement be spotty during a pull?


It's a wet clutch system and low fluid will definitely make the engagement spotty. A failing pump will whine and you will have binding at low speed full steering (parking lot type of situation). 

How is your suspension, tire, and alignment? With the high degree of rear camber that is the norm on these cars and the resulting toe-in, there is a possibility that the aggressiveness of the torque transfer to the rear is overwhelming the tires on that axle. Torque steer is a front thing that would only manifest at very low speed and high torque transfer (highly improbable in our cars).


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

I tend to think this is on the simple side. It's not extraneous mods to the car such as camber or wheel sizes.

The car DOES bind in tight turns -- it's reminiscent of my previous Nissan 4x4 pickup. So there's one symptom that points to the oil not pressurizing right. My suspicion is the tech simply didn't fill up the reservoir.

Thanks guys for answering Question #1: does the blue haldex stink? I'm pretty sure that's not the case. I'll follow up after doing some investigation.


----------



## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I tend to think this is on the simple side. It's not extraneous mods to the car such as camber or wheel sizes.
> 
> The car DOES bind in tight turns -- it's reminiscent of my previous Nissan 4x4 pickup. So there's one symptom that points to the oil not pressurizing right. My suspicion is the tech simply didn't fill up the reservoir.
> 
> Thanks guys for answering Question #1: does the blue haldex stink? I'm pretty sure that's not the case. I'll follow up after doing some investigation.


Yeah, based on everything you've said, not having changed anything else, and the assumption you're pretty mechanically inclined, sounds like you're on the right track.


----------



## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Kind of a shot in the dark, but while your down there check the connector and see if it's clean. 

(I realize that's pretty basic, not trying to be a prick):beer:


----------



## Charlie_M (Mar 23, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> This is happening under straight-line WOT while data logging. The power delivery destabilizes steering (is this torque steer?) while at he same time you can feel power engaging incrementally. If I didn't know better I'd say it's timing advance notching up, up, up. It's a similar sensation. But a timing up-tick feels gentler.


Does it happen even at low road speed pulls, or is it only at higher speeds?

I would check your rear toe-in, and check the bushings in the front of the trailing arms. Sounds like you are getting some rear toe-out under power to the rear, and you are noticing it now because the blue controller transfers power to the rear much more agressively, not just in the early stages of wheel speed difference.

Rear toe-out could explain the wandering instability at WOT, but not the notchy changes you are feeling.

Edit: (wrote before I thought) Accelerating torque should cause toe-in to increase, not toe-out. In any case it still sounds to me like you are getting movement somewhere causing alignment change.

Torque steer is FWD only, and it's predictable, always to the same side. Usually caused by one axle 'torquing up' than the other.


----------



## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

I think the blue makes decisions on power transfer based on the traction of the front..if your wheels are starting to slip then the transfer would be compensated for by sending it to the back and then your fronts gain better traction on the front and the cycle continues.
Maybe you should have gone for the comp controller as the power is a 50/50 split even under varying traction whether it is front or back.
Steve


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

sTT eV6 said:


> I think the blue makes decisions on power transfer based on the traction of the front..if your wheels are starting to slip then the transfer would be compensated for by sending it to the back and then your fronts gain better traction on the front and the cycle continues.


Steve, that's the logic in all the controllers including OEM. What changes really is the aggressiveness of that logic. 



sTT eV6 said:


> Maybe you should have gone for the comp controller as the power is a 50/50 split even under varying traction whether it is front or back.


The control logic is the same with the competition controller. It only has one extra feature in that it stays engaged under braking while OEM and blue disengages. There is no constant 50/50 split in various conditions, that's a myth.


----------



## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Steve, that's the logic in all the controllers including OEM. What changes really is the aggressiveness of that logic.
> 
> 
> 
> The control logic is the same with the competition controller. It only has one extra feature in that it stays engaged under braking while OEM and blue disengages. There is no constant 50/50 split in various conditions, that's a myth.


I would say that there is a 50/50 split under various/certain conditions..
Steve


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

sTT eV6 said:


> I would say that there is a 50/50 split under various/certain conditions..
> Steve


Yes there is, if there is full spin registered in the front but that same condition would call for the same rear engagement with blue and OEM controllers. I was mainly pointing out that the conditions that call for a 50/50 split aren't only possible and achieved by the competition controller.


----------



## M this 2! (Feb 8, 2012)

stock and Blue feel exactly the same for the most part.........daily drivng. under hard accel thru a corner you feel the power more to the back as the car is close to getting sideways. launching is better as the power is already connected to the back BEFORE the front wheels break traction (like it did when stock). the blue doesn't smell any different either.......this makes it sound as if oil is low/empty and you're burning something up = BAD.

i'd NOT get on the gas until you have the levels checked, etc. It sounds like you're not hooking up the rears at all. your EDL is creating the squirrely affect as the car is sending power back and forth between the fronts to find traction. The car is so short geared that when it's just fwd, it's easy to spin the tires.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Charlie_M said:


> I would check your rear toe-in, and check the bushings in the front of the trailing arms. ...it still sounds to me like you are getting movement somewhere causing alignment change.


On a car nearing 100k, I think an inspection of the various linkages is probably overdue anyway. What are the usual suspects for wear and replacement? Thx


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> On a car nearing 100k, I think an inspection of the various linkages is probably overdue anyway. What are the usual suspects for wear and replacement? Thx


Swaybar bushings and linkages, control arms bushings, upper strut rubber mounts etc.

As I said before, just like Charlie also pointed out, it's probably the aggressiveness of the new controller that is highlighting other existing weaknesses. With the age on your car, the shocks are probably shot, the spring are sagging creating excessive camber that creates a butchered contact patch dynamically. You add all that to a car that has decent torque early and you could get a squirrelly feel that you are describing.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

UPDATE:

I took the car back in to Chris at Petrescu Motorwerke. I came with a 1litre bottle of Haldex fluid courtesy of my local Volvo dealer, but he suggested firstly pulling the Haldex pump for a looksee. That was a smart call on his part. The intake screen was filthy from 100K of use. He didn't take a picture of my unit, but here's a look at someone else's:











This example has metallic shavings from I-don't-know-what. Mine was simply dirty dirty dirty. With the screen clean and the fluid topped off...I've got traction! Thanks all for your suggestions and advice. :beer:


----------



## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> I took the car back in to Chris at Petrescu Motorwerke. I came with a 1litre bottle of Haldex fluid courtesy of my local Volvo dealer, but he suggested firstly pulling the Haldex pump for a looksee. That was a smart call on his part. The intake screen was filthy from 100K of use. He didn't take a picture of my unit, but here's a look at someone else's:
> 
> ...


Congrats brotha, rock oneace:


----------



## misternoob (Oct 25, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> I took the car back in to Chris at Petrescu Motorwerke. I came with a 1litre bottle of Haldex fluid courtesy of my local Volvo dealer, *but he suggested firstly pulling the Haldex pump for a looksee*. That was a smart call on his part. The intake screen was filthy from 100K of use. He didn't take a picture of my unit, but here's a look at someone else's:
> 
> This example has metallic shavings from I-don't-know-what. Mine was simply dirty dirty dirty. With the screen clean and the fluid topped off...I've got traction! Thanks all for your suggestions and advice. :beer:


How much work is involved with something like this? Hours or a few minutes to do?


----------



## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

misternoob said:


> How much work is involved with something like this? Hours or a few minutes to do?


Held in by two bolts only. How easy it's removed I'm not familiar with as I haven't spent nearly enough time underneath the TT. :laugh:


----------



## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

misternoob said:


> How much work is involved with something like this? Hours or a few minutes to do?



10-30 min :thumbup:


----------



## jason bouchard (Aug 25, 2005)

pics on removal ? I'm interested in doing this just in case :thumbup:

Also from Volvo the haldex fluid is it any cheaper or in a bigger or better container then the VW stupid tube ??


----------



## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

DeckManDubs said:


> 10-30 min :thumbup:


How much fluid is lost from removing the pump, if you're not waiting til you're changing the fluid to inspect the pump?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

The Haldex oil available at Volvo dealers comes in a much larger 1 liter bottle. It still costs ~$25, though, and you are assured of having enough for the job.

The pump comes out relatively quickly and simply. My tech told me the only hiccup was clearance with a damper wheel that interferes with removal. But the damper is soft and can be slightly pressed out of the way. Then the pump slides out.


----------



## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

20v master said:


> How much fluid is lost from removing the pump, if you're not waiting til you're changing the fluid to inspect the pump?


A large amount will be lost if as the pump is located on the low point of the fluid valley. Might as well drain the fluid first as it makes less of a mess. :thumbup:


----------



## Charlie_M (Mar 23, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> UPDATE:
> Mine was simply dirty dirty dirty. With the screen clean and the fluid topped off...I've got traction! Thanks all for your suggestions and advice. :beer:


 I'm glad you got this sorted out! I'm still trying to figure out why you were feeling squirrely in a straight line due to the pulsing torque to the rear (or whatever the haldex & controller was trying to do). 

If your rear suspension was worn enough to react that way with torque (like I first thought), I'm sure you would have felt squirrely under braking too. 

Good info, in any case!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

The instability was owing to the on/off engagement of the clutch under load. So the power was getting passed back and forth on the chassis.


----------



## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Good to hear you got it sorted out Doug. Change the fluid every 10k with a controller. Stock is every 20k. The fluid rapidly degrades with the increase in heat and shock from the increased demand.


----------



## Charlie_M (Mar 23, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> The instability was owing to the on/off engagement of the clutch under load. So the power was getting passed back and forth on the chassis.


 Yep, I know. I can see that upsetting the car balance in a corner. but in a straight line? That's what I don't get. 

But no biggie, I'm glad it's sorted out now and we have another bit of useful TT info to store for the future .......


----------



## theswoleguy (Jan 25, 2006)

the TT just got back on the road (sorry for bumping old thread) 

doug did it feel like a wobble under load kinda squirrely like bad ctrl arm bushings on one side or tq steer trying to pull the car around... thats what mine is doing on the stock haldex controller, 100k miles here too previous owner did zero haldex maint.


----------



## 20v GTI Guy (Aug 20, 2001)

Mine does this as well. Ironically I am having haldex issues as well.


----------



## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

theswoleguy said:


> the TT just got back on the road (sorry for bumping old thread)
> 
> doug did it feel like a wobble under load kinda squirrely like bad ctrl arm bushings on one side or tq steer trying to pull the car around... thats what mine is doing on the stock haldex controller, 100k miles here too previous owner did zero haldex maint.


 I was feeling this when I had bigger tires in the back. Once I got the same size on all 4, it went away.


----------



## theswoleguy (Jan 25, 2006)

warranty225cpe said:


> I was feeling this when I had bigger tires in the back. Once I got the same size on all 4, it went away.


 yea but im running 225 all four corners... under load increasing load about 4k when boost starts to come on its like a separated tire or pulsing torque steer wobble... Nothing changes in the sound of the engine but the wobble is like **** is the care going left or right. My gf says its like when the f250 got lifted and tires and when you hit a bump you can watch the whole truck shimmy and flex.


----------



## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Sounds almost like a bad CV, Josh. Does it do it consistently? I've had weird axle wobble problems before that would sometimes make the whole car shimmy like you're describing under WOT, but it wouldn't do it all the time and that was on FWD 02M. Guessing you got the brake caliper bolts too?


----------



## theswoleguy (Jan 25, 2006)

20v master said:


> Sounds almost like a bad CV, Josh. Does it do it consistently? I've had weird axle wobble problems before that would sometimes make the whole car shimmy like you're describing under WOT, but it wouldn't do it all the time and that was on FWD 02M. Guessing you got the brake caliper bolts too?


 No not constant only on increasing load starting around 3k. Come off throttle seems to cease.

Yes advance auto had them.

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

What I meant was does it do it every time you go WOT? So the other Josh never changed the Haldex fluid? That's not good. I'm assuming you have?


----------



## theswoleguy (Jan 25, 2006)

20v master said:


> What I meant was does it do it every time you go WOT? So the other Josh never changed the Haldex fluid? That's not good. I'm assuming you have?


 Yea only once boost comes on.

Correct no service, I have service stuff to do it.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

theswoleguy said:


> Yea only once boost comes on.
> 
> Correct no service, I have service stuff to do it.
> 
> Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2


 I'd change it and see if it helps. Take pics of what comes out, if anything. :screwy:


----------

