# Anyone have experience building an SCCA FSP 1.8JH Rabbit GTI Engine



## StealthVR6GTI (May 1, 2002)

So the rules are fairly straightforward and restrictive on engine.
Basically i can use engine parts from other cars on the same line in the scca rule book which unfortunately limits me to MK1 jettas and Cabriolets
- intake valve passages may be ported to match intake no more than 1" from the outside of the head
- must run a factory cam and valves
- Compression may be raised to 8.6 from 8.5
- Engine components may be balanced via parts bin but not by removing material
- Engine may be bored to last factory overbore .442 over (already have shiny new OEM pistons for this part
- Any type of dry sump or semi-dry sump may be run
- Internal components must be of OEM nature (i.e. no lightweight chromoly rods, connectors etc)
From speaking with the FSP SCCA racers that have been doing this for a while I'm told that I should see approximately 105HP at the wheels. Combined with the allowable weight reductions I should have a car in the sub 1700lb range.
Thanks


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

105 at the wheels? your at sea level(ish) so you would see more power than I, but I'm not sure with drivetrain losses you will see anywhere near 105... 95 _maybe_... not an expert about your setup though. But it seems that you would need cams and more compression to hit that 105.
I'd be curious to see comments about running a VW drysump... what I have seen for most SCCA cars (like the Ford 1600), the drysump setups are ungodly expensive.


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## Tom A (Oct 20, 2004)

*Re: Anyone have experience building an SCCA FSP 1.8JH Rabbit GTI Engine (StealthVR6GTI)*

Except for the dry-sump part, that sounds like an SCCA ITB engine.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: Anyone have experience building an SCCA FSP 1.8JH Rabbit GTI Engine (Tom A)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tom A* »_Except for the dry-sump part, that sounds like an SCCA ITB engine.
Pretty much what an FSP motor is. I think most of the gains on an FSP motor will be in intake and exhaust setups. You could MegaSquirt it and get a real nice header and exhaust and get pretty close to those numbers. Not knocking the CIS, but the MS will be a little more free flowing than the CIS. Our 1.8 w/ JH like CR and a tt dp and a 2.25 exhaust and a cam(SM car) and about 19 years worth of driving/racing made 94whp at a local dyno. So a fresher motor could do better with some tuning. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## StealthVR6GTI (May 1, 2002)

The rules for FSP engines almost exactly mirror those of the ITB cars. I'm hoping to see most of the additional gains after the intake from the increased displacement and compression.
The header and exhaust setup are already on the car via tectonics. I'll either be porting out the intake myself or buying the Scientific Rabbit flow matched intake. 
I have the adjustable cam sprocket ready to install so I can begin playing with timing as well. 
It may get a megasquirt or O34 standalone setup at a later date but those systems mainly allow tunability and driveability throughout the rpm range. From what I have seen there is only 3-4 horses there.


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

EFI fueling _could_ produce more power, but in reality it is more "efficient" fueling... if you tune your CIS to run at 12:1 and your $$$$ EFI setup is tuned to run at 12:1... its still 12:1, power is the same. EFI's greatest benefit is conservation of fuel when power isn't needed (i.e. better MPGs), where CIS would always put out the same degree of richness. If that same EFI setup also controls spark, I could see squeezing a few more ponies out. Or if the setup was boosted, EFI would be a major benefit.
Out of curiosity... with the overbore, what is the final displacement?


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## StealthVR6GTI (May 1, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Southcross)*

I have to check the math again but I believe it is approx 1890CC


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (StealthVR6GTI)*

actually a .040 overbore(that's what you are allowed, the rest is for wear) gets you to about 1835 cc since a JH starts out at 1780cc. Don't waste your money on a drysump setup. a good baffled oil pan and windage tray is all you need as long as the rpms stay under 8300 and with a stock cam you will run out of steam around 7000 at best.


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

I still don't see a stock cam & valves, minimal porting, 1835cc, and 8.6:1 making 105 at the wheels
a 2.0L 8v (1985cc), stock cam and valves, 10:1... I made 97 (corrected) at the wheels


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Southcross)*

I agree,that could be a tough # to reach on that CR. None of the higher CR cars are on the same line? (Asking and not looking.







) This is a perfect time for and update.


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## blown020 (Jan 9, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (ps2375)*

105 at the wheels is out of reach for a stock compression jh and a stock gti cam. 
I made 93 on the dyno with a 288, stock bore and compression, and a fubarred cis









Something you overlooked was the fact that there are hotter OEM cams. Pick up a "N" Grind cam from a 1.6. They really wake up the jh and you can find them at the yard all the time.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (blown020)*

But not allowed within the rule set he's playing under.


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## blown020 (Jan 9, 2009)

*Re: Anyone have experience building an SCCA FSP 1.8JH Rabbit GTI Engine (StealthVR6GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *StealthVR6GTI* »_So the rules are fairly straightforward and restrictive on engine.
Basically i can use engine parts from other cars on the same line in the scca rule book which unfortunately limits me to MK1 jettas and Cabriolets
- must run a factory cam and valves
- Internal components must be of OEM nature (i.e. no lightweight chromoly rods, connectors etc)



Now tell me where that says only use of GTI cam is permitted.







Read between the lines my friend. ****, you can run a g grind if you really pushed it, considering it never came to america in factory car.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: Anyone have experience building an SCCA FSP 1.8JH Rabbit GTI Engine (blown020)*

In Street Prepared, you can update/backdate only the whole motor, not parts of it. You can overbore only so much and only match port up to 1 inch into the ports. There is no changing piston, cams nor any other internal parts of the motor. And it must be a Domestic Specification, no JDM or Euro only models allowed in SP. As I've been told a few times, "If it doesn't say you can do it, that means you cannot do it ." But anything up to the head is free(intake and exhaust).


_Modified by ps2375 at 9:59 PM 6-27-2009_


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## StealthVR6GTI (May 1, 2002)

I have looked into the cam options and unfortunately if you want to use the cam you have to use the entire head it's connected to as items can only be updated and backdated as an assembly. There is much talk about using the later hydraulic heads from the 90-93 Cabriolet. Unfortunately I haven't seen anything in the numbers that leads me to believe it's a better choice...
There are a million ways to cheat in informal racing like autox. Unfortunately that just isn't the good sportsmanship. I have two other buddies that are building FSP rabbits so when (and if) I can kick their butt I want to know it was all me!!!


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

give Colin at TT a call... I'm SURE he could come up with some ideas for you








A stock hydro cam gives less lift than a solid lifter... but on the mk2 GTI, they use larger valves... one radical upgrade I have seen, is to modify and use solid lifter cams on the hydro head
anywaysies... based on all your "options" do what you can to the engine, then go with race 4-1 headers, no CAT, 2.5" straight exhaust with no muffler. Probably the most you can open it up without hurting torque


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: Anyone have experience building an SCCA FSP 1.8JH Rabbit GTI Engine (blown020)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blown020* »_

Now tell me where that says only use of GTI cam is permitted.







Read between the lines my friend. ****, you can run a g grind if you really pushed it, considering it never came to america in factory car.









The 049 "G" cam IS legal in IT and I feel confident that in street prepared you wouldn't have any problems with it.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (Southcross)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Southcross* »_I still don't see a stock cam & valves, minimal porting, 1835cc, and 8.6:1 making 105 at the wheels
a 2.0L 8v (1985cc), stock cam and valves, 10:1... I made 97 (corrected) at the wheels

It can absolutely be done. We regularly build IT engines (1.6, 1.8 solid,and 1.8 hydo) that put BHP to the wheels or more. A good 3 angle valve job done right frees up a LOT of power.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: Anyone have experience building an SCCA FSP 1.8JH Rabbit GTI Engine (StealthVR6GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *StealthVR6GTI* »_So the rules are fairly straightforward and restrictive on engine.
Basically i can use engine parts from other cars on the same line in the scca rule book which unfortunately limits me to MK1 jettas and Cabriolets
- intake valve passages may be ported to match intake no more than 1" from the outside of the head
- must run a factory cam and valves
- Compression may be raised to 8.6 from 8.5
- Engine components may be balanced via parts bin but not by removing material
- Engine may be bored to last factory overbore .442 over (already have shiny new OEM pistons for this part
- Any type of dry sump or semi-dry sump may be run
- Internal components must be of OEM nature (i.e. no lightweight chromoly rods, connectors etc)
From speaking with the FSP SCCA racers that have been doing this for a while I'm told that I should see approximately 105HP at the wheels. Combined with the allowable weight reductions I should have a car in the sub 1700lb range.
Thanks

Actually weight matching/balancing through grinding IS permitted
"T. Rotating and reciprocating parts may be balanced but not lightened"
H. Camshaft and Valve Gear
1. Any camshaft(s) may be used.
2. Cam timing chains, gears, belts, sprockets, and associated
covers are unrestricted.
3. A timing chain/belt tensioner may be added to those engines
not originally so equipped, provided that it acts upon that
portion of the chain/belt that travels from the crank drive to
the first cam sprocket/gear. The timing chain cover may be
modified to facilitate its use. Adjustable cam timing sprockets
are permitted.
120
4. Any metal valves may be used. Valve sizes are unrestricted.
Valve springs, valve retainers, keepers, seals, and adjusting
shims are unrestricted.
5. Valve rocker arms, shafts and attendant assemblies (such as
rocker stud girdles) are unrestricted.
6. Pushrods are unrestricted except they must be made of
metal.
7. Any cam followers may be used .
8. Any valve covers may be used
Reread the rules my friend you are allowed to do a lot more than you think.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: Anyone have experience building an SCCA FSP 1.8JH Rabbit GTI Engine (Prof315)*

The rule you list are not the same one list in the Solo rule book. Those must be for one of the IT classes. I know IT cars can compete in SP classes, but I don't know the exact cross-overs. Very little of what you list is available as an SP modification, maybe on a dual purpose car, but a dedicated solo car would be protested and lose every time.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: Anyone have experience building an SCCA FSP 1.8JH Rabbit GTI Engine (ps2375)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ps2375* »_The rule you list are not the same one list in the Solo rule book. Those must be for one of the IT classes. I know IT cars can compete in SP classes, but I don't know the exact cross-overs. Very little of what you list is available as an SP modification, maybe on a dual purpose car, but a dedicated solo car would be protested and lose every time.

Those rules were cut and pasted directly from the national solo rules pdf file on scca's webpage.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: Anyone have experience building an SCCA FSP 1.8JH Rabbit GTI Engine (Prof315)*

Really, cause I looked thru my Solo Rule book PDF and didn't see that.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: Anyone have experience building an SCCA FSP 1.8JH Rabbit GTI Engine (Prof315)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Prof315* »_
Those rules were cut and pasted directly from the national solo rules pdf file on scca's webpage. 

You are looking at the Prepared rules, not the Street Prepared rules.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: Anyone have experience building an SCCA FSP 1.8JH Rabbit GTI Engine (ps2375)*

You're right concerning the cam rules.My mistake, but a G gring cam would still be legal as SSCA lists it as an optional cam for the GTI (thank you Stu Brumer at BSI).


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: Anyone have experience building an SCCA FSP 1.8JH Rabbit GTI Engine (Prof315)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Prof315* »_ but a G gring cam would still be legal as SSCA lists it as an optional cam for the GTI (thank you Stu Brumer at BSI).

Really, even though it never came in a stock car to this country?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: Anyone have experience building an SCCA FSP 1.8JH Rabbit GTI Engine (ps2375)*

SHHHHHHH Stu @ BSI convinced the powers that be at SCCA that they WERE on a few cars.


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

like the one and only imported 82 GTI here in the states, owned by a guy here in Colorado


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## Tom A (Oct 20, 2004)

*Re: Anyone have experience building an SCCA FSP 1.8JH Rabbit GTI Engine (Prof315)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Prof315* »_SHHHHHHH Stu @ BSI convinced the powers that be at SCCA that they WERE on a few cars.
Where is the rules can this be found? What class?


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## StealthVR6GTI (May 1, 2002)

WOW - I need to get lawyered up on the rule book. I can get into the head and work with valves and cams then I have quite a few cheap horses to be found.
The cam comments are an interpretation of the below text of 15.10.AA
Camshafts and related parts must remain standard except that
alternate cam drive pulleys or gears may be used to adjust cam
timing if no variable cam and/or valve timing system exists as
standard. Type of cam drive (chain, belt, gear) must remain as
standard. Alternate parts of the same general type (e.g. roller
chain in place of “silent” chain) may be substituted. Mating parts
(block, heads, covers, retainers, etc.) may not be altered. Vehicles
equipped with a variable cam and/or valve timing system
as standard may use alternate computer calibration to adjust
cam and/or valve timing but may not change or substitute cam
drive components (hardware).


_Modified by StealthVR6GTI at 8:29 PM 6-30-2009_


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (StealthVR6GTI)*

The valves need to remain stock size for FSP. And you are pushing your luck with a diff cam in FSP, regardless of what Stu has "them" convinced of. The SP rules are pretty restrictive with what can be done inside the motor. Outside of the motor is pretty open, but essentially the inside is STOCK. And a "G" cam is not stock.


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## FatknuckleJoe (Apr 18, 2008)

Andy Hollis got totally slammed for improper shims in ST pro, and you guys are considering changing CAMS in SP???????


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: (ps2375)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ps2375* »_The valves need to remain stock size for FSP. And you are pushing your luck with a diff cam in FSP, regardless of what Stu has "them" convinced of. The SP rules are pretty restrictive with what can be done inside the motor. Outside of the motor is pretty open, but essentially the inside is STOCK. And a "G" cam is not stock.

I guess that is why I club race and don't solo. G cam is legal in IT. (of course now I race a GTL car where almost ANYTHING goes.)


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## StealthVR6GTI (May 1, 2002)

The current game plan is the use the following allowances in the build.
Engine
Bored to 1835 with factory overbore pistons
Head shaved the allowed 0.01 
Headported in 1"
Factory JH cams with factory valves etc
Balanced internals (rods, pistons, crank)
Lightweight adjustable camsprocket
Aftermarket lightweight alternator?
Intake port matched and throated to larger MKII throttlebody
Modified CIS setup from 80's Volvo
TT 2.25" exhaust with 4 into 2 no-cat header
We'll see where that gets me next season - this season is the learning session...


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## FatknuckleJoe (Apr 18, 2008)

You might save some time and money by using a VW Fox intake manifold instead of hogging out the runners in a stock one. That's awfully tedious work, and expensive if you pay someone to do it.


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## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *FatknuckleJoe* »_You might save some time and money by using a VW Fox intake manifold instead of hogging out the runners in a stock one. That's awfully tedious work, and expensive if you pay someone to do it.

if the rules won't let him use a G-grind... they aren't going to let him use a Fox intake-mani LOL


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: (StealthVR6GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *StealthVR6GTI* »_The current game plan is the use the following allowances in the build.
Engine
Bored to 1835 with factory overbore pistons
Head shaved the allowed 0.01 
Headported in 1"
Factory JH cams with factory valves etc
Balanced internals (rods, pistons, crank)
Lightweight adjustable camsprocket
Aftermarket lightweight alternator?
Intake port matched and throated to larger MKII throttlebody
Modified CIS setup from 80's Volvo
TT 2.25" exhaust with 4 into 2 no-cat header
We'll see where that gets me next season - this season is the learning session...


just port match the head to the intake gasket. anything else going only an inch in is a waste of time (that's actually why you CAN port the head 1 inch in) 
find yourself an 049 133 233 E intake manifold and match it to the big throttle body. best non crossflow manifold around and was on the rabbit GTI (emissions motor) you can tell it's correct if it only has 1 big vacuum port on the front of it.


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## FatknuckleJoe (Apr 18, 2008)

Yes! You have to come up with the most free flowing intake (in the runners, not just the port matching), or that big throttle body is useless. If you're masterful at the turn-in/lift/rotate/throttle/repeat school of slalom, you could consider individual throttle bodies for instantaneous response. You might gain a tenth or so on a fifty second run. Which speaks to how Street Prepared can tear out your heart and stomp on it. It costs WAY MORE than you think it will when you start down that road. Unless you prepare to the absolute max, you're out there driving your butt off in a car that you know could be a little better. You've already dumped enough money to cause a divorce into the old bunny, but there's that nagging desire for more....ARRGGGHHH!!!!!! And then some diletant in a stock sake sedan turns in the same time.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Southcross)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Southcross* »_if the rules won't let him use a G-grind... they aren't going to let him use a Fox intake-mani LOL


But the do allow it. Up to the head(intake and exhaust are wide open), so ITB's with a SEM, or dual carbs or a single carb are legal, along with any exhaust.


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## FatknuckleJoe (Apr 18, 2008)

Another thing to consider about this project is the status of FSP right now. SCCA isn't really in love with old Vdubs. FSP is sort of slipping away from us. You might want to wait a little while, and see what real-world effect comes from SCCA moving the Neon into FSP, before putting ten to twenty grand (no typos there) into a Rabbit.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: (FatknuckleJoe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FatknuckleJoe* »_Another thing to consider about this project is the status of FSP right now. SCCA isn't really in love with old Vdubs. FSP is sort of slipping away from us. You might want to wait a little while, and see what real-world effect comes from SCCA moving the Neon into FSP, before putting ten to twenty grand (no typos there) into a Rabbit.

Maybe the solo people don't like old dubs but they are a favorite in club racing.


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## epjetta (Sep 19, 2006)

*Re: (StealthVR6GTI)*

instead of the jh cam you should run a 1.6 cam. they have about .020 more lift and just a degree or two more duration on them.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (epjetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *epjetta* »_instead of the jh cam you should run a 1.6 cam. they have about .020 more lift and just a degree or two more duration on them.









Can you "legally" use a 1.6 cam in a 1.8 in FSP. I always understood you have to update/backdate the motor as a whole unit. Not just a head or a block or a cam from what you like (stock of course).
From the rule book"The updating and/or backdating of en-
gines, transmissions or transaxles must be done as a unit; compo-
nent parts of these units may not be interchanged."


_Modified by ps2375 at 6:02 PM 7-3-2009_


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## FatknuckleJoe (Apr 18, 2008)

Do the machine work on the head, install STOCK cam and related parts, and bolt it onto the block. Then install the valve cover, and NEVER THINK ABOUT IT AGAIN.


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## DAVEG (Aug 14, 2001)

*Re: (FatknuckleJoe)*

You can use any 1.8L up to 93 and that would allow the 10:1 later model hyd head engines. The 1.8L engines all had the same block so just change out the pistons revise the cam and intake and exhaust and a valve seat improvement will gain about 15 -20 HP. 
The real improvement in SOLO II should be the handling since the car really never gets to go fast. Reduce lean with higher rate springs and improve response with shocks and tires and light weight wheels. A full cage will reduce lean drastically but hurt any street driving. The advantage of the 83-84 GTI is it weighs around 1800 lbs compared to 2200-2400 for the 85-93. Reduce weight on the front end (no sunroof or AC) and eliminate the sound deadner, relocate the battery to the rear and eliminate the heavy cast iron manifold.


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## FatknuckleJoe (Apr 18, 2008)

*Re: (DAVEG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DAVEG* »_You can use any 1.8L up to 93 and that would allow the 10:1 later model hyd head engines. The 1.8L engines all had the same block so just change out the pistons revise the cam and intake and exhaust and a valve seat improvement will gain about 15 -20 HP. 
The real improvement in SOLO II should be the handling since the car really never gets to go fast. Reduce lean with higher rate springs and improve response with shocks and tires and light weight wheels. A full cage will reduce lean drastically but hurt any street driving. The advantage of the 83-84 GTI is it weighs around 1800 lbs compared to 2200-2400 for the 85-93. Reduce weight on the front end (no sunroof or AC) and eliminate the sound deadner, relocate the battery to the rear and eliminate the heavy cast iron manifold. 

More clarification is needed here. The cars on the same line in the appendix of the rule book are all supposed to be A1 chassis. Which of the 1992's had the A1 chassis? The Cabby?
This is a tricky area.
From the rules: "The updated/backdated part or the part to which
it is to be attached may not be altered, modified, machined or
otherwise changed to facilitate the updating/backdating allowance.
Standard factory installation methods, locations, and configurations
are allowed. The updating and/or backdating of
engines, transmissions or transaxles must be done as a unit;
component parts of these units may not be interchanged."
_Altering_ valve seats is not expressly allowed. Did you mean that the stock valve seats in the newer motor flow better? Removing sound deadener isn't allowed (unless you're talking about the muffler !







) I assume that you meant that a full cage will reduce flex?
Can someone give input on the '75-'92 A1 chassis thing?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (FatknuckleJoe)*

Yes, the Cabby is on the same line, 75-92. Did the cabby have any of the 100hp motors in them? Did any of the A1 chassis have them?(In this country?)


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## FatknuckleJoe (Apr 18, 2008)

*Re: (ps2375)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ps2375* »_Yes, the Cabby is on the same line, 75-92. Did the cabby have any of the 100hp motors in them? Did any of the A1 chassis have them?(In this country?)

The Cabriolet is also listed on a line by itself. Redundant? If the 1992 Cabriolet is A1 chassis, then it's a valid update. The higher compression motor is "free" horsepower that I wasn't aware of. It would involve a full motor swap, with intake and exhaust free. You'd have to have the knock sensor and newer ECU, Digifant injection, and run it off the old wiring harness, I guess. Did the intake manifold on the '92 Cabriolet flow as well as the Fox or GTI manifold? Maybe it's the same part. Who knows if headers could make more torque than the stock '92 Cabby exhaust manifold? I'd also be curious to know If a motorcycle battery would have any trouble cranking the newer motor... should be OK.


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## DAVEG (Aug 14, 2001)

*Re: (FatknuckleJoe)*

Braille makes a very good gel filled battery that can be rechared indefinately...only 15-17 lbs. Weight balance is critical and checking the corner balance will help but there is limited ways to fix it. Coilovers are allowed if you have an IT car but that is being done anyway. A lowered car doesn't lean as much...but a car with plenty of camber change and toe out will corner great (1 1/2 -3 degrees negative and 1/4-3/8 toe out). You can also go wider in offset in front with your wheels by I think 1/8" each side.


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## StealthVR6GTI (May 1, 2002)

*Ok - so I blew the engine last week - now it's time to get serious*

So some oil starvation issues at mid Ohio this weekend have hastened my engine building project. The stock blkoxke lost the oil scraper rings this weekend rolling down 71 south after a PDX event at the track....

So - questions I need some answers to

I have two JH engines sitting here and the correct overboar pistons for them but I'm told the Cabby engine is the way to go based on higher compression and torque available. 

My buddy has a complete Cabby auto engine that I could pick up cheap (but not free like the ones I have).

I determining what I can do the bottom end while I'm in there in case of either engine

How much balancing and polishing is allowed? Can I run anything non-oem for engine interenals (in the case of the Cabby engine the forged pistons are probably gonna be cheaper than OEM).

The lighweight rods are tempting but I can't see how they would be legal....

Really need to talk to someone who has done one of these builds - looking for the most engine I can build without getting into standalone engine management


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

The 87-89 cabrios had 9:1 CR. The 90-92 had 10:1 CR both are A1 chassis...The Hp differences i see in the manuals were from the head(valve size) mated to these short blocks. Actually i would just use the short blocks u have and swap in the 10:1 pistons as all the Cabrios with higher CR were JH blocks aswell according to the Chilton manual. So it being the same block changing the pistons is the cheapest route..If u use the 10:1 CR all stock with a stock solid lifter big valve head you should be good to go!!!:thumbup:


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## StealthVR6GTI (May 1, 2002)

*JH to 2H Engine Differences*

Hmm - I didn't see two different 2H engines.... 

Assuming the data I'm looking at is correct the difference in Comp is driven wholly by the pistons. The rod length and stroke, and bore are the same between the two engines. This leaves me buying a new set of pistons (as i already have big JH 8.5Comp pistons) and getting a set for the 2H engine. The Counterflow head is supposed to flow a bit better than the JH head so that should also be a bonus. 

The conversion back to CIS doesn't worry me as saw the fix for CIS woes this weekend in the form of a manual fuel pressure regulator maintaining a steady state of tune on the CIS system (keeps it from adjusting all the time).

At this point I'm looking for any tricks people can share with me about having the various internals balanced (via lightening) to match the lightest component of the set....

This will be combined with a nice Bildon baffled pan and crank scraper setup. 

Additional items being addressed are lightweight pulleys, ,lighweight A3 alternator, lightweight A3 starter, and Volvo CIS setup.

Just sztarting to add up the numbers now and it's not looking pretty. Good thing it should be the last motor I build for ten years or so...


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

A digi cabby intake is essentially the same as the fox intake and should be legal.


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## epjetta (Sep 19, 2006)

yes you can. intake and exhaust manifolds are unrestricted.


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## Schrottplatzer (Jun 13, 2009)

I have a JH engine in my MK2 (German Spec car from German junkyard, and JH from a German Scirocco) I put the Weber 32/36 DFEV carb and manifold kit on it, then the dual downpipe off a MK3 car and a techtonics exhaust on it and the car moves pretty good, I beat a MK3 GTI in a 0-100mph run despite the fact that I have an auto tranny. The Weber downdraft (no, not the sexy, but finicky side drafts) carbs are really easy to tune and great economy---puttin around town I get 25mpg, doin 100mph for three hours on the Autobahn with a passenger and luggage I got 31mpg! :thumbup:


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

Schrottplatzer said:


> I have a JH engine in my MK2 (German Spec car from German junkyard, and JH from a German Scirocco) I put the Weber 32/36 DFEV carb and manifold kit on it, then the dual downpipe off a MK3 car and a techtonics exhaust on it and the car moves pretty good, I beat a MK3 GTI in a 0-100mph run despite the fact that I have an auto tranny. The Weber downdraft (no, not the sexy, but finicky side drafts) carbs are really easy to tune and great economy---puttin around town I get 25mpg, doin 100mph for three hours on the Autobahn with a passenger and luggage I got 31mpg! :thumbup:


 ummm ok :screwy:


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## StealthVR6GTI (May 1, 2002)

*Doing some more research*

As I do some more research I found a nice little allowance in the rule book that makes me wonder if I shoudn't be planning on changing the car over to digi to take advantage of the knock sensor and more efficient fuel syste,. 

It seems that the rules allow the head to be decked to the factory minimum thickness. Assuming this is approx 2mil from doing some reading (need to buy a Bentley to confirm) then I can likely get all the compression I can actually handle from decking of the head. The ability to deck the head 2mil could allow me to take advantage of as much as 1.5 points of compression increase. As the Cabby JH digi engine is a 10 to 1 motor stock this could allow me to run 11.5 to 1 compression which may be more than the CIS can handle at lower RPMS. 

Any thoughts on this? Anyone running serious compression with relatively stock fueling system? 

At the moment the plan for the head is to deck as much as 2mil, freshen the valve seats, port to match the intake, port to match the exhaust, and put in fresh lifters. 

For the engine the game plan is 
-Do the 0.40 overbore and add in the large pistons at factory compression 
- Blueprint the all the rotating internals (lighten to the lightest component in the set to balance all parts) 
- High speed balance the crank and intermediate shaft 
- Add a Bildon baffled pan with crank scraper 

Bolt ons are as follows 
- Eurosport large primary 4 into 2 into 1 catless header 
- TT 2.25 exhaust 
- ported intake 
- adjustable cam sprocket 
- lightweight crank pulley 
- MKIII lightweight alternator 
- MKIII lightweight starter 
- lightened flywheel with 16 valve pressure plate and 4 spring 4 puck disk 

Suspension and rims are pretty setup but will benefit from a GC coilover setup


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

The fuel system (any fuel system) can handle any CR. It is the fuel octane and the amount of timing advance that you'll have to worry about. And I would go MS way before I ever would ever think of going digi.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

ps2375 said:


> The fuel system (any fuel system) can handle any CR. It is the fuel octane and the amount of timing advance that you'll have to worry about. And I would go MS way before I ever would ever think of going digi.


 Agreed :thumbup:


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

I don't know the FSP rules, but the comment on page one about 3 angle valve job doesn't fly in the IT rules. No worries though, your goals are totaly attainable. If the high compression is an option you should be able to add 10 to the target IMO. 

I would definitely move to the digi efi setup (and convert to aftermarket ecu such as megasquirt or SDS) if the digi cabby is on the same line for an autox car. I would not expect more power, but area under the curve and driveability will be improved.


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## StealthVR6GTI (May 1, 2002)

*Adding Digi*

Yeah it would seem that adding the Digi injection might allow a bit more tuneability and the knock sensor systems might allow me to run the higher compression without the low RPM issues that come with it.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

StealthVR6GTI said:


> Yeah it would seem that adding the Digi injection might allow a bit more tuneability and the knock sensor systems might allow me to run the higher compression without the low RPM issues that come with it.


As I said before, the MS will give a much easier way to tune for power and drive-ability, and if you run premium fuel, the CR will not be a problem at any RPM. And, if it is, you can easily tune for it. And the intake is not hampered by any type of metering/measuring device.


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

I would not bother with a knock sensor. I would just run good fuel and tune it right.


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## StealthVR6GTI (May 1, 2002)

*Update to the build*

So I pulled the 2H motor from the Digi cabby this weekend and it's currently stripped down for a cleaning and ready to pull the head and pan.

Was happy to find it was the big head with the 40mm intake and the largest Hydro cam the "G"

I'll be pulling the head to have it decked 0.021 which will bring me from 10 to 1 up to 10.5 to 1 compression. I'll port matching the intake and exhaust while I'm at it. 

I'm waiting for the following goodies to arrive from TT
TT baffled pan
Oil intake to head restriction kit
4puck unsprung clutch and 16v pressure plate

Gotta call Bildon today and order the cnc crank scraper from them as well

The Vortex gods have yielded the following goodies that are currently enroute to my place
eurospec lightened flywheel
G60 throttle body
Scientific Rabbit intake
Serp belt kit using OEM lightweight goodies from the 2.0, VR6, and G60
MKIII lightweight alternator and starter
Crane Hi 6 ignition

Gotta get onto Ebay and source the following
Adjustable FPR - to cheat CIS and run inline at the fuel setup
lightweight plastic fan setup to save some more weight

Next steps are to have my buddy order all the standard stuff at his shop discount
seals and gasket kit
belts
headstuds
exhaust studs
cooling system plastics
waterpump

As I'll be skipping the bore and balance steps my hp goals have decreased from 105hp to 95 at the wheels.

Can't wait to get this project going as it is getting pretty close now...


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Why skip the balance?It is apart and will make it sooo much smoother when revving it out.


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## StealthVR6GTI (May 1, 2002)

*update*

Unfortunately my timeframe to get the build was just drastically reduced so in the interest of time and cost I'll be skipping tearing the engine down for the bore and balance. 

I'm still pretty excited about the project and now expect the output to be more like 95/97 at the wheels....


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