# Lack of mid bass.



## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

98 Jetta with two 6 3/4 drivers in the doors and two more in the rear tray. All for are powered by a Sony GTX-CD310 and puts out 52wx4. And I have a 10 inch sub and amp in the trunk. 
All 6 3/4 drivers have bass blockers rated at 200hz.
My issue is when I set the head unit at 125hz low pass to the sub out I loose a lot of mid bass. The only way it sounds decent is if I let the sub have all the frequencies. To my understanding wont my setup sound better if I leave the low pass on for the sub out and find away to have more mid bass produced from the 6 3/4 drivers?


_Modified by WtErKeWlEdUbbEr at 5:41 PM 11-22-2009_


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## twelvevolt (Oct 29, 2003)

*Re: Lack of mid bass. (WtErKeWlEdUbbEr)*

you're kidding me right? 
you cut the bass from your speakers, and then you actually wonder what happened to it.


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: Lack of mid bass. (1sik95jetta)*

I thought I just cut the low bass out not the mid bass. Is 200hz too high?


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: Lack of mid bass. (WtErKeWlEdUbbEr)*

I just use the bass blocker so I can turn it up loud and not get a lot of distortion when the bass hits. Maybe a adjustable crossover is what I need or high end drivers that don't need bass blockers.


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## Scrambles (Jul 27, 2009)

wow...
the bass can't 'hit' if there is no Signal for that low of a note, if you don't want distortion, get better gear.


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: (Scrambles)*

So better drivers it is. Thanks.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: Lack of mid bass. (WtErKeWlEdUbbEr)*

200hz is what I would actually considered upper midbass.
Good starting slopes would be:
80hz low pass on sub
100hz bass blockers on mids.
Switch to 100hz or 120hz bass blockers and 70 or 80hz on the sub. If you still have a midbass problem with that many mids, you probably are having phasing problems, which would be linked to the install.


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## Hard_Timez (Dec 4, 2004)

*Re: (WtErKeWlEdUbbEr)*

not even better drivers. try installing some amps instead of using that sony, for midbass i'd get some 8"ers , 6 3/4 sound good at 70-80 Hz cut off. try it that low first, you might just like it. you want your midbass to blend right into the sub freq. for great transition.


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## Hard_Timez (Dec 4, 2004)

*Re: (Hard_Timez)*

oops. sorry. pat beat me to it. tu shea.


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: (Hard_Timez)*

I am still using the stock drivers. Where can I find 80hz bass blockers?
Thanks for the advice.


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## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

dont use caps to block the bass....set it on your deck at 80 hz.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

If the deck allows it......


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## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

another option if your deck does not have a HPF for 80hz is to drop the bass on the deck, and turn up the gain/bass boost on the amp.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Most head unit equalizers are centered at 100hz while most bass boost knobs are centered at 40-45. Plus telling someone to turn the bass boost and gain up as compensation for an EQ change is like telling them they need to inject heroin to cure their cold.


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## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

i dunno seems simple to me....back off the bass on the head-unit to keep your speakers from distorting, turn up your amp gains to re-gain the bass volume from the subs. Its good for everything, keeps the head-unit running cooler, keeps the speakers from distorting,sounds better. I find far too many people are running their bass levels too high from the head-unit.


_Modified by harmankardon35 at 11:55 PM 11-26-2009_


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

The problem is the sub setting on the head unit is a gain adjustment, while bass setting is an eq adjustment. 
Increasing the gain on the amp to compensate for reducing sub level on the head unit isn't a problem unless you increase the gain until the point the amp clips or floor noise becomes audible.....
Increasing bass boost on the amp to compensate for reducing the "bass" setting is just retarded, as I outlined above. In addition, bass boost on the amp (or head unit) will cause the amp to clip at a lower gain settings.


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## Non_Affiliated (Feb 12, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Do you mean you have a Sony CDX-GT310








If so your running a Head unit that is rated 4 x 52W *MAX*, Most likely it puts out 18 Watts RMS, 20-25 At best RMS.
Tone controls don't help much as the Low is at 60Hz, Mid is at 1KHz and High Is at 10KHz.
Like mentiond before, First I would get the crossover points lowered as mentioned above. If that doesn't work to your liking you may want to look at getting a 4 Channel amp, and look for one that has a built in X-over that has a high pass that is adjustable from say 50Hz at least, on up.


_Modified by Non_Affiliated at 5:16 PM 11-27-2009_


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## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

you can set your gains/bass boost to wherever it sounds best, lower bass from the h/u = higher gain on the amp. Gains are not some secret knob that should only be touched by a professional. You adjust them to where it sounds best, obviously if its too high it will be dis-proportionately loud compared to the rest of the system. you aren't going to set it to where it sounds good and then BOOM distort your amp, blow your subs and have hell freeze over. If it distorts, your over driving it, regardless of gain setting. Many amps i have run were at 100% gain with bass boost on. NO distortion....you know why? because the bass was turned down on the head-unit. about the only thing you said that has logic is introduction to noise at higher gain levels, but i find that's a rare occurrence when dealing with subs only (mids/highs on an amp are more prone)



_Modified by harmankardon35 at 5:44 PM 11-27-2009_


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## Non_Affiliated (Feb 12, 2002)

*Re: (harmankardon35)*


_Quote, originally posted by *harmankardon35* »_you can set your gains/bass boost to wherever it sounds best, lower bass from the h/u = higher gain on the amp. Gains are not some secret knob that should only be touched by a professional. You adjust them to where it sounds best, obviously if its too high it will be dis-proportionately loud compared to the rest of the system. you aren't going to set it to where it sounds good and then BOOM distort your amp, blow your subs and have hell freeze over. If it distorts, your over driving it, regardless of gain setting. Many amps i have run were at 100% gain with bass boost on. NO distortion....you know why? because the bass was turned down on the head-unit. about the only thing you said that has logic is introduction to noise at higher gain levels, but i find that's a rare occurrence when dealing with subs only (mids/highs on an amp are more prone)

The fact remains that he has already introduced a response dipby having a 200Hz HP on the 6 3/4 and a 125Hz LP on the sub. Now tha fact that we have no idea what the in-car response (Cabin Gain/loss) he could have an even bigger dip in response due to the car enviornment. Another factor would also be what his box response is that can also come into play.
The key thing is have the X-over slopes and Gains properly set.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: (harmankardon35)*


_Quote, originally posted by *harmankardon35* »_
you can set your gains/bass boost to wherever it sounds best, lower bass from the h/u = higher gain on the amp. Gains are not some secret knob that should only be touched by a professional. You adjust them to where it sounds best, obviously if its too high it will be dis-proportionately loud compared to the rest of the system. you aren't going to set it to where it sounds good and then BOOM distort your amp, blow your subs and have hell freeze over. If it distorts, your over driving it, regardless of gain setting. Many amps i have run were at 100% gain with bass boost on. NO distortion....you know why? because the bass was turned down on the head-unit. about the only thing you said that has logic is introduction to noise at higher gain levels, but i find that's a rare occurrence when dealing with subs only (mids/highs on an amp are more prone)
_Modified by harmankardon35 at 5:44 PM 11-27-2009_

You obviously don't know _how_ a gain knob truely works, nor how the power supply in an amplifier works. I never have, and never will say the gain knob is a magical device that should be adjusted by professionals only. Where you got that I will never know.
I'm tired of arguing with ignorance.


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## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

*Re: (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

hey pat, is it that time of the month?







I kid I kid
mobile installer was my job for over 5 years after i spent a year in school for it. Now I do it as a hobby. Trust me, i know how a gain works. I also know how a DC-DC switch mode power supply works in most amplifiers by using PWM to create a stable output voltage, regardless of the input voltage...simple stuff really


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## wishuhadmyvw (Jan 7, 2006)

*Re: (harmankardon35)*


_Quote, originally posted by *harmankardon35* »_hey pat, is it that time of the month?







I kid I kid
mobile installer was my job for over 5 years after i spent a year in school for it. Now I do it as a hobby. Trust me, i know how a gain works. I also know how a DC-DC switch mode power supply works in most amplifiers by using PWM to create a stable output voltage, regardless of the input voltage...simple stuff really









is this guy for real? pat i agree, ignorance must be nice these days. i wish i could be oblivious to the real world and set my gains at 100% **** maybe i'll lose my job and be able to collect unemployment right?


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Best buy, eh








I was feeling kind of guilty so here we go.
It comes down to preamp voltage and noise floor. Lets get past the marketing fluff about higher preamp voltage to sell head units, and get down to higher preamp voltage on the signal line and distortion. 
Sure, there is nothing inherently wrong with dropping sub to -6 on the head unit and maxing gains, providing the amp is not clipping.
What you lose on the preamp side, however, is differentiation of low volume passages on dynamic content. Sort of round of the lowest remainder. With a higher preamp voltage, those lower remainders are higher in power, less likely to be "rounded off" and thus, clarity is maintained. 
Next, while you may use amps that have no audible noise floor, that's not to say all devices don't. If you have a lower preamp voltage and say a 30 band eq and active crossover before the amp, the lower preamp voltage will force a higher gain on each device in the chain. So your crossover is increasing the noise floor of the eq (through gain) and the amp is increasing the noise from the crossover. Rule of the road is _First in the chain, highest possible preamp voltage_
Lets not forget that not all amps have an inaudible noise floor. Anyone ever hear that _hiss_ between tracks, or switching between radio and cd-player? That's the demon. Simply telling someone to lower sub output on the head unit while cranking the gain could make this obnoxious hiss even louder.

I've already stated why lowering "Bass" and increasing "bass boost" on the amp is a downhill fight - unlike boost frequencies. 
I, finally, feel I should give another mention to the gain and amplifier clipping. Surely you know that the gain knob adjusts the amplifiers internal gain to input preamp voltage. Once input preamp voltage exceeds the set expected maximum input level (provided signal chain is not clipped and amp is not overrated), the amplifier will clip. The initial clip is virtually inaudible, but as the signal voltage is increased further, distortion will become evident. The clipped signal, in addition to distortion sound, will more than double the required input amperage and because of the higher total power over time, will cause the most modestly built speaker to overheat. Yes, you can have this with too much power, but it's much easier to blow a speaker with clipping than running too much power.


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## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

sounds like you're talking about clipping the input side of the amp? Because that's just signal distortion not true amplifier distortion. It may sound just as bad, but distorting the input will not put excessive DC voltage on the speaker coils like true distortion will. Amplifier distortion comes from one thing: over-driving, you can do this by setting your gains too high or by simply turning up the volume too loud, its one in the same. Just because the gain is set high (or even 100%) does not automatically mean the amp will clip, it just means that it requires less signal to achieve the same volume. A good thing if you have sub control in your deck. I set my gain at 75-100% and generally use the sub volume on the deck to adjust the subs. My sub volume is usually +1 or 2 out of 12, but usually push 6 or 7 on rock music. If my gains are turned down, i don't have enough headroom to play with and ultimately not enough bass on some songs. When we worked with EV pro audio setting up clubs and theatres its the same idea..., you set your amplifiers to the highest gain possible without introducing noise, this both allows available headroom if you need it, and keeps you from over-driving the input trying to get more volume.


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: (harmankardon35)*

Ok now that you guys confused me, I am running the bass blockers because I am still running the OEM 6 3/4 drivers. Now from what I have gathered here I should buy better drivers that handle more power so I don't have to use bass blockers or use bass blockers with the new drivers a 80hz or run a amp with a high pass built in.
I do listen to a lot of metal and I think a 4ch amp would really help out in the heavy guitar department.


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: (WtErKeWlEdUbbEr)*

To me my tweeters sound fine so I was thinking about these 
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/...-2566
or
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/...-1515.
And a amp to run them, but have the head unit run the tweeters?


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Don't buy anything pyramid or pyle branded... ever
Those 6.5's are midranges, and simply do not have the xmax to function as midbass. You also want to find a speaker that has a qts of over .6 for a door install. Interesting looking speakers, bad for door replacements.


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Sorry but I dont have a clue what xmax is or qts is.


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (WtErKeWlEdUbbEr)*

Where can I find mid bass speakers?


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

look at the specs listed on the product page you linked... says XMAX and QTS.


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Does it tell you what they mean? Sorry but I want to learn.
Their site is down.


_Modified by WtErKeWlEdUbbEr at 8:40 AM 11-29-2009_


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## kritiostodd (Nov 21, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (WtErKeWlEdUbbEr)*

It's good that you want to learn. Lots of people on here just want answers for their immediate problems rather than gaining knowledge to help avoid future problems.
I'm in the same boat as you, relatively new to the technical side of car audio, but wanting to know more even if I don't currently have the budget to put the knowledge into practice. 
Check this out: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/....html
Edit: Here's a glossary: http://www.the12volt.com/gloss....html











_Modified by kritiostodd at 1:23 PM 11-30-2009_


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (kritiostodd)*

Thank you.


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Non_Affiliated)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Non_Affiliated* »_Do you mean you have a Sony CDX-GT310








If so your running a Head unit that is rated 4 x 52W *MAX*, Most likely it puts out 18 Watts RMS, 20-25 At best RMS.
Tone controls don't help much as the Low is at 60Hz, Mid is at 1KHz and High Is at 10KHz.
Like mentiond before, First I would get the crossover points lowered as mentioned above. If that doesn't work to your liking you may want to look at getting a 4 Channel amp, and look for one that has a built in X-over that has a high pass that is adjustable from say 50Hz at least, on up.

_Modified by Non_Affiliated at 5:16 PM 11-27-2009_

This stereo has a rear channel pre-out only. Will it be ok to run a 4ch amp on that pre-out?
The plan is to purchase component 6 3/4 setup for doors.
4ch amp with low pass and high pass filters. Set it up for 3 ch to run my sub. Set the cut off at 80hz.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

_Should_ be okay. You won't have fader control. I highly doubt that head unit has any special rear-channel processing.


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

The only thing it has is you can set it as a sub out with a low pass filter and level control.
So if am only sending a two channel signal to a 4 channel amp I can get the amp to run in 4 channel and 3 channel mode. Just wanted to clarify. In case I need to buy another receiver. I have never ran a 4 channel amp before just two channel. 


_Modified by WtErKeWlEdUbbEr at 9:46 PM 11-30-2009_


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (WtErKeWlEdUbbEr)*

After doing some more research it looks like I need to just use rca splitters to turn my one pre-out into two pre-outs. Sound logical , but I know if I do that the output signal will also split in half. So just turn the gain up on the amp and no big deal?


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

voltage remains constant, amperage is cut in half. Should be fine with just splitting the signal


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Thank you very much for helping me out with this Pat.


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (WtErKeWlEdUbbEr)*

Since I have a 10inch sub in ported enclosure, where would the best place to run rear midbass drivers? On the rear deck? or in the rear door panels? I have a Jetta and there are places to install them in both places. Or all the above....


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (WtErKeWlEdUbbEr)*

depends what you have your crossover set to and how you have the sub box aimed. 
If the crossover (highpass 12db/octave minimum) is ~225hz, the rear doors will work just fine.
If the crossover is higher than ~225hz or you're using a 6db/octave slope AND the sub is not firing up, the rear deck should be better


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

I have no idea what you just said.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

It's all about how we hear sound based on frequency. Almost all amps have crossovers on them, it will say either hpf, lpf, bpf, or there will be a switch for you to choose. There will also be a knob to adjust what frequency the crossover is set to, with example frequencies at the high and low end. 
Kind of like this


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

I ordered a component setup from Infinity, it's the 6020cs and its rated at 2 ohms. I would like to use a bass blocker rated at 100hz for them which would be a 800uF capacitor. The deck only has two LPF selections for the sub preout 78hz and 125hz and I think I will use 125hz.
Since it's a 2 ohm system I might get away without running an amp with them.
Does this sound good?
This will be my next deck. It has a crossover built in! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

infinitys are known for horrible low end response. That and you never want to run 2 ohm speakers on a deck. 99.9% of the decks out there will not support impedances lower than 4 ohms.


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Oh well I was just going of what their website said. They claimed it was safe with all car stereos. They get down to 53hz which is lower than I need them to go. I must say Pat you are making me feel a little discouraged here.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

They would be safe if you used an amp.... Any moderate or high volume listening and it's no good for the head unit. 

_Quote, originally posted by *"from the infinity website"* »_True Four Ohms— All Reference speakers feature two ohm voice coils. Original factory-installed speaker wiring in many cars is 18-22 gauge. This wire, and heating in the voice coil when power is applied, increase the impedance “seen” by the amplifier or head unit. The impedance of Reference Speakers has been adjusted to compensate for this increase and can be safely driven by any head unit. 

This is bull. The actual DCR of the speaker will be lower than 2 ohms, and once the coil heats up, should be close to or slightly over 2 ohms. IF you're counting on your wiring to increase impedance, you're foolish. If it actually does, you have bad wiring. I do not recall the actual amount, but a standard run of 18 gauge wire in the car should have an incredibly low impedance; something to the tune of roughly .00018 ohms.
You could try 'em, but if all of a sudden the head unit doesn't play then, well. You'll know why.


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Well they already shipped I am just going to have to try them out.


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

I installed my component speakers this past weekend and wow they sound great, lots tight mid bass ,also very clear and detailed sound. The deck puts out plenty of power since the components are rated at 2 ohms. They blend very well with the sub. Very happy with the out come. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (WtErKeWlEdUbbEr)*

I was thinking about using some Dynamat in the front doors. Should it be applied to the doors or the door panels?


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

What problem are you trying to cure with the dynamat?


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

I lose volume and some mid bass at highway speed. I have done this to a old mighty max pick I had back in the day for the same problem but the door panel was completely flat to the door and the MK3 door panel is not.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

*FV-QR*

you need mlv. 1.25lb/sq-ft, 1/8" closed cell foam backed, no adhesive.


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Pat @ Pitt Soundworks)*

Any links of what this stuff is and where to get it? And where do you apply it to since the door speakers are mounted to brackets that sit off the doors. It's like the door panel is the front baffle and the door is sealed with plastic. 


_Modified by WtErKeWlEdUbbEr at 6:33 PM 1-19-2010_


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## WtErKeWlEdUbbEr (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (WtErKeWlEdUbbEr)*

When I turn it up loud I have distortion mostly in the tweeters. Is this because I am running off of deck power? The mids seem to show lots of excursion though. Perhaps they are eating all the power?


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