# Refrigerant use in water-air intercooler???



## wannabdubbin (Nov 22, 2002)

okay, this might be a crazy question, and i'm sure someone else has thought of this, but maybe they haven't done it yet. Or maybe there's some limiting factor that I'm not realizing right now, but here it goes...
Would it be feasible to replumb your A/C system, and re-route the cold side of the system through a water-to-air intercooler? I've been searching for info on those types of intercoolers, PWR seem to be the best, and it seems like they would only be of any real use with ice in the water tank. and since ice melts rather quickly, there has to be another way.








Correct me if I'm wrong, but all of the components in that diagram are already in place in an air conditioned car. (A) the Expansion valve is probably somewhere near the heater core, or wherever the fan blows air across the cool coils to blow cold air into the passenger compartment.
(B) the compressor is belt driven, so there would be some parasitic losses, but that could easily be driven by an electric motor, just like the water pumps in most water to air intercooling systems.
The hot coils are either in front or behind of the radiator, where the ambient air cools the compressed freon. 
So why couldnt the blue coils be inside an intercooler??? Doesn't the inside of an intercooler have a water pipe running through it that tranfers heat from the hot air from the turbo compressor into the cooler water??
call me crazy...
any ideas???


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## Butcher (Jan 31, 2001)

*Re: Refrigerant use in water-air intercooler??? (wannabdubbin)*

The better way is to install the evaporator in the water res. of the A/W system. The A/C could be shut off during those full load situations so you would not have to worry about too much parasitic losses. There should be enough water in the system that could maintain a good 15 sec. run. As for cooling the air I would think that would be too much hassle, difficult to maintain temps and possibly too cold to run during normal driving. I sure have not tried it nor do I have the time to explore it more than just thinking about it. Someone with time and experience could come up with something.


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## wannabdubbin (Nov 22, 2002)

*Re: Refrigerant use in water-air intercooler??? (Butcher)*

Yeah, I thought about that too. 
Something like this:








Where (D) is the water resevoir, and cool the water that way.
I was also thinking this idea would be usefull for more than just drag racers. I was thinking this could be the solution to having a daily driven street car with an air-water intercooler. it could always be cooled, not just 15(or less) seconds at a time.
It would probably take a ton of tweaking, but the system could be designed to only cool the freon to certain point. what would the coldest intake temps you would want on a FI engine? I thought the colder the better. There are gonna be some losses in the plumbing from the exit side of the IC to the throttle body....


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## MigAce312 (Nov 22, 2002)

*Re: Refrigerant use in water-air intercooler??? (wannabdubbin)*

has anyone ever tried a water-air intercooler using liquid nitrogen?...Its been done for cpu cooling in computers...can't imagine it being much different for and intercooler http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## wannabdubbin (Nov 22, 2002)

*Re: Refrigerant use in water-air intercooler??? (MigAce312)*

that stuff is scary








check out this website. these dudes are nutty.
http://www.powerlabs.org/emguns.htm


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## bahnblitz (Jan 18, 2002)

*Re: Refrigerant use in water-air intercooler??? (wannabdubbin)*

First off about 3 pounds of ice and about 2 gallons of water is all you need at the track. You could use dry ice but if you do, I bet performance will suffer. There is a point where everything can be too cold. Remember it is combustion!


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## jung4g (Jun 18, 2003)

*Re: Refrigerant use in water-air intercooler??? (MigAce312)*

The AC system is a horrible Idea, but for the extra hassles and weight of the whole AC system, I don't think its worth the trouble. For the Water to Air Intercooler, just picture a small intercooler (air to air) surrounded by a box with water in it, so instead of air flowing through the core, you've got cool water. Ideally, we want cold water, but without Ice, or some refrigerant system as suggested, cold is hard to obtain. 
Yes Liquid Nitrogen has been used for racing, but is obviously not practical for Daily driving, (also see N-tercooler, sprays Liquid Nitrogen onto an Air-Air i-cooler for extra cooling.).
The Water-Air would be fine for daily driving with it's own radiator and water pump, that way you can simply circulate the water through the radiator (doesn't need to be too big) and and let that water cool the air. Not necessarily as good as a well designed air-air though. But Water-air is very useful when space is a big issue (VR6 turbo in A2







) for piping or whatever, also is stealth. 
Just remember, anything can be done, but whether it should be is always a matter of opinion backed by theory (or at least should be)
Jung


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## wannabdubbin (Nov 22, 2002)

*Re: Refrigerant use in water-air intercooler??? (jung4g)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jung4g* »_The AC system is a horrible Idea

Great, more motivation to make it work


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## wannabdubbin (Nov 22, 2002)

*Re: Refrigerant use in water-air intercooler??? (wannabdubbin)*

okay, probably my last reply for the night, cause i'm leaving work in like 20 minutes.
someone let me know if I'm wrong, but from the ideal gas law, considering Volume and n (number of moles), and R being constant, I got to:
P1/T1=P2/T2
example:
running a standard FMIC, your intake temp is 100F, at 10psi
if the IC could get the temps down to like 60F, then you could run an equivelant of 16.6psi with the same occurence of detonation as the 10psi.
sounds worth it to me.
but I could be using the formula wrong, and assuming too much. 
Just trying to get theory to back up my idea....


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## PhOO (May 23, 2000)

*Re: Refrigerant use in water-air intercooler??? (wannabdubbin)*

a cheap way to do this is to use a mercedes benz fuel cooler.. which is a small heat exhanger you have installed in the AC line that runs to your evap and then plumb your IC water line to go through it before it hits your intercooler.. should help knock a couple degrees off the water temp


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## tongboy (Dec 13, 2001)

*Re: Refrigerant use in water-air intercooler??? (MigAce312)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MigAce312* »_has anyone ever tried a water-air intercooler using liquid nitrogen?...Its been done for cpu cooling in computers...can't imagine it being much different for and intercooler http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Nitrogen works well in a computer because there is maybe 100 watts of heat put off by the processor, in a car its miles above that in heat output. Nitrogen can be very cold but it doesn't have the ability of shedding its heat as fast as water does nor can it hold as much heat before it transitions to gas and once its a gas it doesn't cool at all compared to its liquid form.
water is used for cooling because its the cheapest/most available liquid that has the cooling properties. water holds heat well, takes more energy to warm up and sheds heat easily, all things you want in a coolant.


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## bobqzzi (Sep 24, 2003)

*Re: Refrigerant use in water-air intercooler??? (wannabdubbin)*



wannabdubbin said:


> ...
> Would it be feasible to replumb your A/C system, and re-route the cold side of the system through a water-to-air intercooler? I've been searching for info on those types of intercoolers, PWR seem to be the best, and it seems like they would only be of any real use with ice in the water tank. and since ice melts rather quickly, there has to be another way.
> No, it's not feasible. An A/C system doesn't have anywhere near the capacity to chill the volumes of air consumed during combustion, not even within an order of magnitude.
> Now, if you wanted to have it plumbed to a water reservoir that could be chilled slowly between runs, then that would be pretty trick. But it would be easier just to buy some Ice at cumberland farms


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## bahnblitz (Jan 18, 2002)

*Re: Refrigerant use in water-air intercooler??? (bobqzzi)*

Why dont you plumb the chargecooler into the cooling system of the car i.e. radiator? Ive seen a coupe cars setup this way. Also mess around with differnt liquids for the charge cooler. Maybe some evans coolant or alcohol.


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

You guys make it sound like air-to-water is not a valid way to intercool a street car.
Lots of people have good results with air-to-water intercoolers. You just have to design it properly and use a big enough rad, and enough water.


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## tongboy (Dec 13, 2001)

*Re: (Agtronic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Agtronic* »_You guys make it sound like air-to-water is not a valid way to intercool a street car.
Lots of people have good results with air-to-water intercoolers. You just have to design it properly and use a big enough rad, and enough water.

water is the BEST cooling solution assuming its implemented correctly. think about the huge cooling towers, those usually work on evaporative cooling, which is water + some methanol to prevent rust + freezing.


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## wannabdubbin (Nov 22, 2002)

*Re: (tongboy)*

actually, unless you put ice, or something colder than ambient air temp in the cooling resevoir, then air-to-air is the most effiecient IC medium. If you think about it, there's no way that you can get the water in the system down to ambient air temp, no matter how large the radiator, due to heat soak from the engine, and heat exchanger efficiency. So, unless you cool the water in the IC some other way, (ice in the resevoir, cooling lines), then air-to-air is the most efficient form of Intercooling.
I'm NOT saying air-to-water is not a valid way to IC a turbo engine. it produces faster turbo response due to shorter piping, and the less piping you have, the less fittings you have, and the less pressure you'll lose before it gets to the TB. All good things.
Plus not eveyone wants to drive around looking like they're fast and/or furious








I prefer the slow and curious look. 
either way, anyone know what kind of CFM a T3/T4 turbo will output at 15psi? I need to get more information so I can run some calculations and see if it is really possible, or even worth it.
thanks.


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## Wishing on a Vr (Feb 7, 2003)

*Re: Refrigerant use in water-air intercooler??? (wannabdubbin)*

well my idea was to use gel from in gel filled ice packs







but yours sounds more realistic than mine http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for some one with a plan!


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## DubG60 (Jan 18, 2001)

*Re: (wannabdubbin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wannabdubbin* »_actually, unless you put ice, or something colder than ambient air temp in the cooling resevoir, then air-to-air is the most effiecient IC medium. If you think about it, there's no way that you can get the water in the system down to ambient air temp, no matter how large the radiator, due to heat soak from the engine, and heat exchanger efficiency. So, unless you cool the water in the IC some other way, (ice in the resevoir, cooling lines), then air-to-air is the most efficient form of Intercooling.
 It CAN be made to run at ambient but its VERY tough (ie no resevoir and a VERY fast moving pump etc etc etc) But there have been cases of A/W ICs lowering temps just below ambient without ice, they use methanol and other alcohols mixed with water (I dont know what mixture or how to calculate it yet) But I do know of some instances (STRAIT effing pipes) where you can cool by expansion and compression of air (mostly expansion) but that takes some serious brains to figure out. Air to Air is by far the easiest to cool effieciently but its possible (with HOURS and HOURS of research and experiemnting) to lower A/W temps below ambient on a regular basis.


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## Butcher (Jan 31, 2001)

*Re: (DubG60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DubG60* »_ Air to Air is by far the easiest to cool effieciently but its possible (with HOURS and HOURS of research and experiemnting) to lower A/W temps below ambient on a regular basis.

I am glad you corrected this man since he is wrong. A/W is more efficient than just air. How may air cooled engines are there? What transfers heat better air or water? Well I rest my case. Air to Air is most likely the easiest and cheapest but water to air is the most efficient. A poor A/W is not going to be better than a good A/A.


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## wannabdubbin (Nov 22, 2002)

*Re: (Butcher)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Butcher* »_
I am glad you corrected this man since he is wrong. A/W is more efficient than just air. How may air cooled engines are there? What transfers heat better air or water? Well I rest my case. Air to Air is most likely the easiest and cheapest but water to air is the most efficient. A poor A/W is not going to be better than a good A/A.

So heat soaked water will transfer heat away from pressurized air better than free flowing ambient air? REALLY? I understand that water can hold more heat than air, and it is the main medium for cooling IC(internal combustion) engines, but i believe running A/C lines in the intercooler would be sweet. it would extract more heat from the boosted air. that's all my point is.
the BIGGEST issue I've come across so far is all the condensation that is gonna take place inside the IC with the cold A/C lines running through it.
What do you guys with ice water in the system do? Does it cause condensation? How could you possible drain that is there was? Or does boosted air not condensate on the IC heat Xchanger.
Thanks.


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## kimosullivan (Aug 12, 2002)

*Re: (wannabdubbin)*

All of you guys have brought up several good points in this debate. There are a few things I feel you're missing.
First, the engine sucks a lot more air then the blower for the AC system. The ammount of cooling provided by the AC systems couldn't possibly keep up with the demands of the engine in a steady state application. Now, if you run the AC compresser all the time to build up a sizable ammount of liquid refrigerant, you could then dump all that liquid in a brief period of time to supercool (subambient) the intake charge. The Ford F-150 Lightning does this. It works for about 15 seconds of turbo. That is probably enough for 0-100 mph.
All transport processes are most efficient in the liquid phase. All transport processes are time dependant; heat doesn't move instantly. A/W ICs are better than A/A ICs because even with warm water, the water still picks up heat better/more/faster than the cool air does. As for heat soak of A/W ICs, get a bigger radiator and cooling tank, or just get new water all the time like in marine racing. Ocean/lake water will be colder than the air due to surface evaporation and there's plenty of it. Marine racing will show you some truely insane turbo motors. Also with A/A FMIC, the intake charge is cooled, but the air used to cool the rest of the motor gets heated up. That doesn't make much sense to me. A/W ICs are physically smaller and can be placed more optimally giving shorter intake plumbing and more efficient airflow. The radiator can then be placed anywhere on the vehicle: trunk, underbody, roof... Then the engine radiator doen't have to cool the motor with hot air. For drag racing, you can put rock salt on the ice to force it to melt and get the liquid in the system down to about 0 deg Farenheit. If you could get frozen alcohol, the coolant temperature would be awesomely low.
Ever use air powered tools alot? The get cold after a while. You can't just cool a gas by expanding it. The gas must be forced to do work. (Thompson's classic experiment shows that internal energy is purely a function of temperature.) By adding a second turbo charger with slight shaft power input, you can super heat the air charge in a second compresser, cool it in a radiator, and super cool it by expanding it thru the turbine wheel. This is gas compression refrigeration, and it's horribly inefficient, but dead simple and light weight. It's often used in aviation HVAC systems because of this.
Condensation inside the IC. You really should get a text book on thermodynamics or HVAC for this one. In order for water to condense inside the IC, you need to cool the wet air below its dew point. Now the dew point is dependant on air pressure. If air is compressed at a constant temperature, dew may form. Just like in the shop compresser the boss makes you drain every day. Now, in your turbo charger, compression is less (14 psi by Garrett vs. 120 psi by Craftsman) and faster (not a lot of time for the compressed air to cool). If you are running a lot of boost and very good cooling, you might have condensation. Get a temperature reading and pressure reading after the intercooler along with ambient air wet and dry bulb temps, look through pressure tables of water/steam etc... Most hobbyists need not worry about this. The ammount of condesible water isn't enough to cause hydrolock. Some people even use water injection to cool intake charges.


_Modified by kimosullivan at 3:47 PM 10-20-2003_


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## Butcher (Jan 31, 2001)

*Re: (kimosullivan)*

Kimosullivan, Thanks for setting it straight and saying it in a way that makes sense to us all. I agree with you and you stated it in a way I could never have done.


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## Cause4panic (Jun 18, 2003)

i was thinking about something like this, almost like a poor mans halo or nter cooler. if you were at the track take a plant sprayer and a bottle used for paintball that held co2. spray water and co2 on the intercooler and make it a nice block of ice. wonder if that would help ure ets lol
just a thought


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## gliplow (Feb 19, 2002)

*Re: (Cause4panic)*

Just run a huge radiator and 20% alcohol mix in your water and go run some 11's.


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## Cabrio1.8T (Jan 6, 2003)

*Re: Refrigerant use in water-air intercooler??? (wannabdubbin)*

Check out the new Ford SVT lightning (?I believe?) The have this new system, that you arm, then mash the gas and it sends A/C "coolness" through the I/C to cool it down. I think tht mght be close to it, or way off, Just search for it








Edit: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=713265 


_Modified by Cabrio1.8T at 1:02 PM 10-31-2003_


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## a2-8v-pgh (Aug 16, 2003)

*Re: Refrigerant use in water-air intercooler??? (Cabrio1.8T)*

ok for all of you, im a straight up computer nerd. over the past few years ive been into hardware and overclocking. this raises the tempeture of your processor by upping its voltage and clock. there for you dont want it to over heat and fry. so bigger fans come into play, then comes watercooling, then phase-change. so i have spent the past 2 years on forums aim and the phone with engineers discussing concepts of the design of waterblocks(mount on processor), flow, pressure, liquids to use, metals and everything else. here is what i would say...
one dont submerge your evaporator in a resovior filled with water with a pump to pass the "chilled" water into the turbo. dont submerge your intercooler in a resovior that is chilled. the more times you have to transfer the heat through metal the longer it will take to cool it. unless you are taking the water to some absurdly low temperatures do not mix the water with another liquid.so glipco that water alcohol mixture wont help. not cold enough it will actually hurt the thermal properties. if you do choose to mix the water with another liquid enthynol and glycol have proven to work well, however make sure you check the thermal changes that occur do to the percentage mixed. water has an amazing convection level plus an amazing specific heat level. water can hold so much heat it is simply unbeatable on a standard level. if you want to straight up refridgerate your turbo make sure you do all of the math correctly. how many watts of heat the turbo produces vs the amount of heat the compressor of the phase change system is able to pump to its condenser. how many watts of heat the condenser is able to evaporate into the air. the type of refridgerant used also means a lot. so does the amount of refridgerant filled into the system. you also want to check how much horse power your car will loose to power a compressor for that application. no machine is one hundred percent efficient, always remember that. if u want any help with more information or the formula's that you need to figure out a lot of this just im me or my aim name is dnigro341. i think this is an awesome idea however a lot of time and experimenting would have to be put into it...
kimosullivan, if u want to try to figure some of this out and help them drop me an im. i have a lot of people who would be able to help with the serious math and the actual building of what ever we would decide would work the best.
and for who ever said a really fast pump. you want to watch about water pumps. check the head level and heat output of it. you may screw up the whole idea with how hot the pump gets. however on an application like this i doubt it. and check its operating temp. for instance my processor probably puts out a good 125 watts of heat.(i havent recalculated latley) and my pump generates 65 watts of heat. it has a gallon per hour rating or 700. and i think 18.5' of head pressure. i have no 90 degree bends in the tubing and a heater core instead of snake coild raidiator due to 1 flow and 2 heat dissipation. also make sure you dont mix aluminum and copper. well pretty much if u have copper only mix brass with it or you may experience the dreaded "BATTERY EFFECT" with causes corrosion(i forget the proper name) but anyway if u properly anodize the aluminum it wont happen but you never know. also if anyone is interested i may be able to get an anodizing kit or have something anodized.

_Modified by a2-8v-pgh at 8:29 PM 10-31-2003_


_Modified by a2-8v-pgh at 8:36 PM 10-31-2003_


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