# The Thread Build (BuildUp:)



## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*The Thread Build (ABA BuildUp*

So I guess I should start an official "Build Thread". Seems like everyone is doing it anyway. This is going to be a slowly proceeding build. I don't even have the engine and trans out of the donor vehicle yet. I'll post up some more stuff about my progress up to this point some time. I think the next step is a header install. I want to get everything external to the engine installed so I know it will fit and then I can just swap it all over. I guess that means I should test the intake manifold before the swap too... 

Last night's project.
















Didn't get the pass side rear mount changed though. I'm not really sure how to do it. It's kind of hard to get at especially with the exhaust manifold on. 

_Modified by macanic21 at 5:47 AM 11-11-2009_


_Modified by macanic21 at 7:06 AM 11-11-2009_


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## wickedklown (Jun 13, 2006)

go in thruogh the passenger wheel well


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: (wickedklown)*

Thanks man. I got it figured out. I just unbolted the aluminum mount from the block so I could have better access and actually get the mount out once it was unbolted. Piece of cake once that was out of the way. 
WOW! I LOVE these BFI mounts!!! I'm glad that I didn't go with the stage .5 and went with the stealth. I wouldn't want them any stiffer. I think I've heard that they take a while to break in and it would be nice if they did that a little. At idle the car rumbles and there are some RPM's that send vibrations through the car but nothing bad. It's so nice that I can shift smoothly now and when I pull out my exhaust doesn't rattle against the rear swing arm. The only thing bad I have to say is that they cheaped out on the bolts they give you. They don't have stamped in washers and they don't give you washers to use. I wound up reusing some of the old bolts and some of my own washers.
Did I mention that I love these mounts? So far BFI = http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
I can't wait to get the camed engine in so I can feel it lope when at idle.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: (macanic21)*

I Just ordered a BFI stage 2 chip since they were on sale for black Friday. I hope it gets here and I get a chance to install it this week. My internals are still stock but I will be writing a full review as soon as I can.
Side note: Washed my engine bay down the other day and I think I got water in my TB pos. sensor







. It didn't like that to much.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

I ordered a Stage 2 on Friday as well. You are going to love the difference that chip is going to make. More fuel and ignition is going to make you say "Holy sh*t" a couple times. You arent goin gto believe the difference a chip can make. 
What cam are you going with?


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (tdogg74)*

Eventually a 276* with steel retainers and LW lifters. I'll be running a stock cam with the chip until I get the motor built. 
I'm not sure if I want to take the time to port out the OBD II head or take the time to look for an OBD I head. I bought an OBD I head but it was cracked between the valve seats...


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

My opinion: It would be a waste running the stock head with a 276*. Take the time and get, at least, an OBDI head. At least those dont have the valve shrouds. Until you get a good look down the intake port of an OBDII head, you have no idea how tiny the ports are.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (tdogg74)*

Yeah, I'm not going to. I just don't know if it will be easier to grind out all that extra metal out of the OBDII head or look for an OBDI head to port instead. I will be porting either head.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

Get an OBDI head. Dont waste your time grinding out the shrouds. If you dont know what you are doing, you will end up with misshaped ports. At least with and OBDI head, you only need to do a few things yourself and get a good valve job, and you 70% better off.


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_Get an OBDI head. Dont waste your time grinding out the shrouds. If you dont know what you are doing, you will end up with misshaped ports. At least with and OBDI head, you only need to do a few things yourself and get a good valve job, and you 70% better off. 

*^^^^^^^truth^^^^^^^*


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Salsa GTI)*

10-4^^
Well, Swapped the throttle body from the parts car tonight. It made the idle control better but not the RPM's hang more in between shifts.... I swapped it because I'm trying to eliminate my 2k RPM dead spot. It may have helped but it is not completely gone yet. I'll drive it a while and see how it runs. I'm also going to try to figure out how to do a throttle body adaptation on it with VAG-COM. 
It was starting to hang between shifts with the old one on but now its worse. Anyone know why these motors do this?? My dad has a 97 that is Really BAD! and his is stock.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

Simple answer:
You are driving an economy/commuter car. Its designed in the throttle body TPS assembly to do this. You will never completely get away from this. Even going with a lighter flywheel doesnt completely eliminate this.


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (tdogg74)*

it used to drive me nuts....damn electric throttle body...Its fixed now


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Salsa GTI)*

Well that's fine but it used to work great. It has been getting worse recently. These car's don't do this new so I would defiantly argue the "its design" point. It also takes longer for the car to come back to idle even if I don't push the clutch in before 900 RPM. I can actually feel it pulling. I push the clutch in, the R's come up, then slowly settle back to idle... Hopefully this smooths itself out once it gets used to the new TB.
I think the different TB did fix my dead spot issue. It didn't do it once on my 1.5 hour drive home today!! Hopefully it holds out.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (macanic21)*

So I just did a TBA and all went smoothly. 
I wanted to play eith the idle speed just to see if I could. I will be needing to do this when I get my chip in. When I put in a new value and hit Test, it comes up with an error in the new value field. Anyone have any ideas. I've been searching around and havn't found anything, figured I'd start here.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (macanic21)*

No one has any ideas?

So my BFI chip came yesterday! I wasn't expecting the huge fancy holder it comes in but it makes it nice to install in the board. Threw it in in about 10 min. The car fired right up and ran smooth. I have a 272* chip so idle was right at 1080 RMP's. I did a TBA and tried changing the idle speed.  Once again it gave me an error when trying to change the idle speed.... 
Took the car out for a drive. Met a boosted VR at a gas station that ran so bad it was probably slower than my car, pretty funny actually. And the kid was trying to show off with it.







The car defiantly runs smoother through the RPM range. So far I have had no problems with my 2k RPM dead spot. I had a full tank of gas and all my work stuff in the trunk for the first and second drive this morning. I would say it pulls harder that it did with no gas and no junk with the stock chip! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I rolled it in 2nd this morning and went "wow, that actually wasn't that bad".
Sorry Travis, I wouldn't classify it as WOW or HOLY CRAP. It's not like I just threw 10 psi at the thing. Although, I've never tried any other chips and I have a stock engine. That very well might change my perspective. I am very pleased with the chip. 
There is one thing it does do worse though. It may be do due its having no time to adapt yet or my modified TB. When off the gas going down a hill and picking up speed the engine either opens the TB or brings more fuel on or something. It does this stock, but with the new chip it jerks somewhat during this transition. This happens when accelerating or decelerating. I think it may have been better this morning though. We'll see if it works itself out over time. 
I actually feel like i wouldn't be embarrassed to dyno my car now!


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

One thing I have noticed about this chip....if ANY of your sensors are crap, this chip tune will bring the issue out. When I swapped mine in, my MAF was actually bad. Ran fine with the stock chip, but when I threw in the PEM, I had bad light throttle lean issues. Put in a new MAF and it ran perfect. Others have had this issue. Not the chip's fault, but it bring to light any problems. 
Sorry you are so underwhelmed by the chip. I would say my car is considerably lighter than yours because the change from the stock chip to the PEM was dramatic enough to elicit a wow and a holy crap from me. Or maybe it was because my motor was built (at the time) and took to those mods more. Either way, as long as you are happy, thats all that counts. I still think this is the best mail-order tune we can get for these cars.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

Also, Ive had that problem you've had with getting an error when trying to do a TBA. I put in a newer (used) throttle body and it worked. Sounds like the electronics in your TB is funked out.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (tdogg74)*

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm getting the error while trying to change the idle speed. The TBA goes fine and seems to actually do something. It settles down to idle faster after I do the TBA.
I'm defiantly happy with the chip. I just don't have anything to compare it to like you did, and I'm stock. I'm actually theoretically running an incorrect tune for my car so I'm sure that is some of it. It seems to be a quality tune and it defiantly made an improvement. I cleaned the MAF 2 days ago so hopefully that's working alright. I also would like to replace the O2 sensor just for fun. Haven't spent the funds on that yet though. Maybe soon.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (macanic21)*

So here are a few pics of the last few things I did to my car. 1st is the TB smoothing I did. I did this to my TB I was curently running but I think the TPS sensor was on its way out. So, I smoothed this one and swapped it on. 
















Next up we have some pics of the chip install. I didn't expect the crazy holder they had the chip in. It made it nice for installation. BFI really needs to make up some stickers and sent them along. 
































I wish my brother would clean up after himself better... The whole garage is covered in sanding dust and his painting stuff is everywhere. Every time I want to work in there I have to clean first. Guess I need my own place. Hopefully in a year I will.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (macanic21)*









Here ya go Travis. This is my log just after I put the chip in. I didn't register any knock throughout the run. I take back what I said about this chip not having a WOW factor. It's only gotten better now that I have a tank of gas through it. The power is much better everywhere. It feels like a new car. It actually wants to go now instead of me having to flog it everywhere!


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

I dont know what to say about this. Thats a _lot_ of timing....even for an ABA. My data device is connected through the VAG port as well, but I never ever saw timing advance like that. I even have a knock pad on my sensor...which would make my motor less prone to knock retard.


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## Jay-Bee (Sep 22, 2007)

*FV-QR*

Was gonna say the same thing... almost 40*? Or did you scale the graph out too far?
You got a tank of 110 in there?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

Curious...
On the chart, what does "ignition Timing Actual *BTDC *8.3*" mean?


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (tdogg74)*

Those labels are what VAG-COM generated when I did the log. The 8.3* in the label is a screw up on my part when I made the graph. It didn't effect the actual graph. The "ignition Timing Actual" means that that is the actual effective timing after things like knock and what ever else it takes into account. It also gives me a "Timing from Map". Under WOT it tracked almost exactly with the actual timing, so I didn't graph it. It was a few * higher when cruising though. I didn't fool with the scaling at all, what it looks like is what you get. I can post a list of the actual #'s if you guys want to look at them. Or, I could email the spread sheet to you if ya wanna PM your address. 
Since when is 38* a lot of timing?? Especially with a knock sensor.
My CEL came on on the way home today. It didn't run any different so I'm gonna scan it tonight sometime. Interesting.



_Modified by macanic21 at 12:15 PM 12-9-2009_


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

Here is a VAGCOM printout I did a couple years back when I had my old custom TT chip installed. You can see my timing never went as high as yours.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (tdogg74)*

Looks like you needed an upgrade. Keep in mind I'm running the stg 2. Idk if the timing is different or not. It should be due to the lower dynamic compression a hotter cam would create. Timing is pretty much the only way to increase HP without changing anything physical on an engine. Assuming the mixture is ideal (we know its not) stock. If the chip does make more power than any other, I would not be at all supprised if it had the highest timing. 
What are people running with stand alone?
I see you had a little knock in 3rd. what were your engine specs and octane during that run, just out of curiosity.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

My engine was full-out done. Its the set-up I pulled 135whp with. The knock in third was from a faulty #3 plug wire.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (tdogg74)*

Ah, OK. So you could have probably benefited from a little more timing. I just scanned my car and I had a Bank 1 rich p0172... What the heck do I do about that? I guess its time to replace that O2 sensor.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (macanic21)*









Here is the timing map for 89 non E10 gas run. you can see I did have a little KR on 2 and 4. It is far from consistent though and my total timing is still up there. My next log will be with 87 E10 fuel. At this point the only time I'm going to run premium is at the track. 
What do you guys think?


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (macanic21)*

WOOT!! Just took delivery of some Bilstein Sports!!!! Can't wait to get those bad boy's on. They are now hanging out in my room making it look faster.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (macanic21)*

Shocks!
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4744546


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## VWLover1985 (Nov 19, 2008)

Hey man, if you need any 2.0 stuff let me know. I live about 15mins from womelsdorf. I got alot of "goods". A few short runners I built,some cams laying around. I got a few obd1 heads 1 or 2 P&P Obd2 heads with TT valvetrain. Just trying to get rid of some of this stuff locally.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: (VWLover1985)*

Finally Back! The next phase of the build is underway: The Engine and Trans! 
I finally got the engine and trans tore out of the parts car last week. This week I dropped the trans off at APTuning in Lebanon for a rebuild. They only wanted $300 labor to do it so I figured it would be worth it.
Got the engine all tore down except for the distributor. How do you get that darn thing out of the block by the way? 
I ordered a TT 276* and when that comes in I will check bearing clearances and if the head is good I will start porting it and take the block to APTuning to have the machine work done.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: The Thread Build (macanic21)*

















Check out the sweet condition of the pressure plate








Tonight will be a little measuring to make sure my crank is still good. Bearings looked fine so I don't think I will have any problems.
What kind of paint should I put on this thing?
BTW those wheels and tires are for sale if anyone has a real vehicle


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## ENRGZR (Oct 11, 2006)

*Re: The Thread Build (macanic21)*

Lavender


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: The Thread Build (ENRGZR)*

LOL, Yeah I knew I would get some crazy responses from that. What "kind" of paint, not what color. Its going all black BTW. Should i just go with spray bomb stuff or should i use automotive epoxy primer and the factory body color black?


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Re: The Thread Build (macanic21)*

Got the distributor our, just needed a hammer. It's all broken down and ready for a trip to the machine shop. Only 1 main bearing was down to the copper.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

CC'ed the chambers. Got around 33cc's. Does that sound right? Does anyone know any chamber size to comp ratio stuff figures? I've heard people say that these engines are anywhere from 9:1 to 10.7:1 comp ratio stock, what is it?? Of course the search is disabled while they rebuild. 

Got the trans back from the shop Thursday. IDK if it works yet. I can't spin the axles in opposite directions like I assumed I should be able to. Is this normal? Sometime I'll put a shift lever on it and try to run it through the gears. 

Does anyone have a good source to get fittings to install an oil pressure gauge?


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Man I love my camera!


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## vento86 (Oct 13, 2008)

whats the mileage on that motor? i pulled the head off of mine at 120xxx and it looked cleaner than that


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

I think it has about 176k on it. I was surprised at how clean the intake ports were.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

So both heads I have are cracked in #1 chamber between the valve seats... I thought I read of people using the heads like this without problems. One of the heads i bought on a running engine and it ran strong. The concern I have is that i will be putting bigger valve seats in and I don't know if the head will hold up to the machining process. I don't want to have any problems with this thing when i put it back in the car. Should I just look for another head? 

The valve kit I'm going to be using. 
http://techtonicstuninginc.com/main...ct_info&cPath=2_13_61_484_125&products_id=142


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Got my block back from my buddy who glass beaded it for me. Next it's off to the machine shop with the stuff. I'll try to post a pic of the block. A problem I noticed is that the sealing surface where the water pump bolts to the block is corroded where the o-ring sat. Hopefully some good RTV will hold it. It's pretty bad. Any suggestions on a fix?


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)




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## boost_man (Apr 30, 2010)

Looking good. good luck...


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Parts List*

AEG Manifold
OBD I Head
TT 276 cam
Adjustable Cam gear
Light Weight Lifters
Mildly Ported, Port Matched and Polished Runners and Chambers
TT 42mm and 35mm valves
Shaved Head, Amount to be determined
83.5mm Forged Pistons stock comp.
Stock rods & crank
Light Weight Flywheel

Will it make 140whp?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Maybe/maybe not. Hard to say with a stock manifold. You _will_ have retarded low end torque (below 4500rpms).


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Block crank and rods off to APTuning! Going with JE pistons. Gotta schedule some dyno time to get a before reading.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

I was working on port matching the exhaust and tried to set the header on the head and line up the holes.... Once I lined up one port the closest one was 1/8" off:banghead: I hate crappy junk. But, I also hate spending $300 for some tubing. So I'm planning on using lots of heat and maybe having the flanges machined flat once i get them all lined up. 

Stupid OBX!!! :thumbdown: :thumbdown:


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## drracing07 (Nov 5, 2007)

wait wait wait...back on page 1 you said you were using 87 octane gas with the PEM stage 2? correct me if im wrong but dosent that require 93 octane? hence the ricockulous timing?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

drracing07 said:


> wait wait wait...back on page 1 you said you were using 87 octane gas with the PEM stage 2? correct me if im wrong but dosent that require 93 octane? hence the ricockulous timing?


 I ran 87 with the S2 all winter long NO ISSUES. This was on a stock head/cam setup. For the hell of it, I dropped in a tank of 93 and the timing didnt advance all that much more at a lower rpm/load. Maybe 2*? At WOT, it advanced the same...about 27*-30* (rpm-dependent) And up until my car burnt, I was using 89 octane and there was no difference in timing. 

About the header not lining up.....They all come like that. Its not a big deal. You just persuade it on with a rubber mallet. NOT a big deal. I had to do that to both of mine when I put it on. And the OBX isnt a crap header.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Yeah, you are supposed to run 93 with the stg 2. I wanted to see if and how much timing it would pull on 87. I do think it runs better on 93 as opposed to 87.

I did get the header on an old head that still had the studs in it. I think I'm going to sand down the flange to try to get it to seal. When you put a straight edge across the flanges there is also an 1/8 inch gap and one of the flanges isn't even straight. If this isn't a cheap poorly made header, I would hate to see one. But, I cant say I wasn't expecting to have this problem.

Maybe if I was bolting this to a iron head I would be able to draw the nuts down tight enough to make it seal, MAYBE. I don't feel like stripping out the threads on my good ported head....

Got the intake ports finished up last night. Now I just have to figure out if there is anything else I can do with the exhaust ports. I can't really open them up any because the header is the same size as the factory ports. I already did the short side radius.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

FINALLY! Got the head done tonight. Couldn't do much with the exhaust ports because the header so closely matches it. Cleaned up the chamber side as well. Off to get the bigger seats put in and check it out again to make sure everything is still smooth. After that I just have to get on APTuning to get that crap done! 
Then put it all back together...


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Got the header wrapped tonight. I need the tool to tighten the wrap straps... I broke one so now I gotta order more. I think it turned out decent. I'll post some pics then.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Waiting for more straps...


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Does anyone know where i can get a complete parts list of all the seals and things I would need for a rebuild? I have a FelPro kit # CS26164 but it doesn't include every single thing.


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## Juro (Jul 7, 2010)

Love the thread awesome to see another person building a 2.0 good luck!


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Got the block back from the shop. Now waiting on the head and parts.... This had better be good!

I'm the only one I know of who will be running this valve kit. Also, I don't think anyone else will do it with a stock MK3 mani! i will be eventually going to a modified MK4 but i'm hoping it makes some serious tq down low for daily driving with this mani. My cam will be a mis-match, but well see how it runs.

How is the baffle setup in the oil pan. There is a baffle that clips onto the pump pickup right? Whats the purpose? I assume to keep the oil in the sump for cornering and such. Is that all?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Let me know when you're ready to ditch stock manifolds and want to spend the coin on an SRI. {I.E. when you're ready to make some real hp.) :thumbup:


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

I'm pretty sure I won't ever want to do that. If I need more hp than this, I think I'll get something else. It's just not worth it.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Just saying...stock manifolds are a major bottleneck. All that head work and you limit yourself.


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## redzone98 (Jun 10, 2004)

Something is just not rite here with that timing graph. and you were running 87 octane? with 40*+ degrees of time. ?

i call shenanigans


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

looking back at that chart, I just noticed that his timing spiked to 40* right when he let off the gas. So he wanst running WOT when it spiked. His timing looks about right under acceleration low-mid 30's.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

redzone98 said:


> Something is just not rite here with that timing graph. and you were running 87 octane? with 40*+ degrees of time. ?
> 
> i call shenanigans


If there are any shenanigans its VAG-COM not me.

I'm gona swap in a modified MKIV mani once I get it fixed up. We'll see how that goes. 

Got the motor almost ready to come out!


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## redzone98 (Jun 10, 2004)

naaa, its true about the timing relation with being off-FOT. i didnt notice that part.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Thats OK. I just wanted to type shenanigans.


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## redzone98 (Jun 10, 2004)

macanic21 said:


> Thats OK. I just wanted to type shenanigans.




i know... its a great word !


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

APTuning is severely aggravating me! They have screwed around for 2 months getting my parts together. Then I went in last week and they told me "yeah, we have all the stuff but we can't find the cam caps..." Great, now the head I spend weeks on is now junk! I'm going in tomorrow and pick up the parts and I'm not paying for them until they produce a ported 8v head! I'm never going to these people again.


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## nextproject (Nov 18, 2007)

bah go grab some off a junkyard head and have a shop line-bore the cam journals. easy peasy.


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## redzone98 (Jun 10, 2004)

macanic21 said:


> APTuning is severely aggravating me! They have screwed around for 2 months getting my parts together. Then I went in last week and they told me "yeah, we have all the stuff but we can't find the cam caps..." Great, now the head I spend weeks on is now junk! I'm going in tomorrow and pick up the parts and I'm not paying for them until they produce a ported 8v head! I'm never going to these people again.



wow that is really unprofessional. what a joke:thumbdown:


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

nextproject said:


> bah go grab some off a junkyard head and have a shop line-bore the cam journals. easy peasy.


Yep.

Get your sh*t back and have them deduct the machining cost of line-boring the new caps on. THen you won't have to deal with them any more.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Thanks for the advice. I'm going in after work today to smack them around a little. Wish me luck...


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Well, they got a new set of cam caps and are going to align hone them. It should be done by the end of this week I hope. I also got a bunch of parts, clutch, cam ect... I think I'm going to like the clutch!


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## Water Boy (Dec 14, 2007)

Good work mate!

Im keen to see more updates and pictures. 

We dont get the ABA here in Mk3's so im keen t know more!


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

FINALLY got the head back from the shop. They "found" my cam caps but I don't think they are mine. They didn't shave the head like I told them too either. I also didn't get my nuts and stud returned either for the caps. I'm going to take it to a machine shop that has done good work for me before and have them check the alignment of the caps and deck the head. 

How much should I have taken off this thing so I'm just at the limit of compression on 91 octane? Keep in mind I have a 276* cam so dynamic compression will be much lower than stock.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

WOW, Finally got the truth from someone, well maybe. They said the machine shop threw away my cam caps with another 8v head that was junk. They are now going to get a new set of caps, align hone them, and discount the machine work...

How much should I deck the head?

Everyone should do bigger valves to these heads. In addition to the bigger valves, it enables the short side radius to be lengthened. Also, the bowl area instead of curving back towards the intake as it comes up to the valve seat, is now straight from the base of the bowl up to the valve seat. I could also expand the sidewalls so that the port does not choke down as much when it makes the turn to the valve. I think this will make a huge difference in the flow numbers. I would love to see flow numbers on ported head with and without these valves and seats.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Dropped the head off at APTuning again. The said it should be done by Tuesday. So, I'm hoping its done by the end of the week. Then I can finally get some motivation to put this thing back together!


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## nextproject (Nov 18, 2007)

i'd like to see some flow numbers when its all said and done if you dont mind. if the machine shop does this enough, they should have the equipment readily available to give you flow numbers with your cam.

very curious as im assembling funds right now to send my OBD1 aba off to SCCH for stage 3 porting as well as the TT 42/35 kit and then swain technologies for coatings, although mine will end up with a turbo setup.

I'd like to know some flow numbers.

If you're going all motor with an aggressive cam, maybe you should even consider a solid lifter conversion to add some RPMs up top. Its pretty pricey from what i've heard/read/been told but theres simply no other way to safely get up past ~7500.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

I also would love to know flow #'s. Unfortunately I don't know of anyone around me that can flow it... I'll give you some HP #'s once I get it together. The only good things that came out of this is that they are going to throw in some free dyno time and discount the machining.


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## SPJosh1890 (Sep 4, 2010)

nice buildopcorn:, pretty close to where i was thinking about taking my aba if i end up deciding against the vr swap. 



P.S. i second that bfi needs to send stickers when you order there stuff. i just spent 300 with them and no stickers lol.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

SPJosh1890 said:


> P.S. i second that bfi needs to send stickers when you order there stuff. i just spent 300 with them and no stickers lol.


 :laugh::laugh: I usually throw them away 

I didn't read every single post, but about your water pump sealing area on your block being pitted from corrosion.... 
RTV may work..... the least cost effective way would be to get it ground/welded and remachined. Welding cast iron blocks is 100% possible, the machine shop I had do my block has welded many many blocks in their experience (farm/tractor/big rig equpitment). Just some info for anyone else who was curious if it already hasen't been said.


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## SPJosh1890 (Sep 4, 2010)

GTijoejoe said:


> :laugh::laugh: I usually throw them away


 well next time your about to toss some ill give you and address to send them to lol 



UPDATES?????


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Surprise! the head isn't done... I'm going to call them tomorrow and tell them I'm picking it up Friday whether its done or not. They seem to work best under an ultimatum.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Finally got my head back! Align honed decked .020" and assembled. Now I have to check the bearing clearances and hope they didn't ruin my head. I think the factory bearing clearance limit is .005-.006" for the cam journals. Does anyone know if I can run more than that safely? 

It was .004" when bought it.

It looks SICK!!


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## SPJosh1890 (Sep 4, 2010)

macanic21 said:


> It looks SICK!!


prove it!:thumbup:


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## nextproject (Nov 18, 2007)

ditto. what he said. i agree. pics are necessary. we will be the judge of the sickness.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

nextproject said:


> ditto. what he said. i agree. pics are necessary. we will be the judge of the sickness.


:laugh:


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

lol yeah, I know. My upload speeds at my house are so SLOW.... I'll have to get some pics on my work laptop and upload them at work. I know I gotta get some pics up....


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5164440478/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5163834355/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5163833779/

IDK if this stuff will work. It used to but flickr changed things.


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## SPJosh1890 (Sep 4, 2010)

well you were right.

big difference

ITS SICK!!!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Answer your damn PM....I got an offer you won't be able to refuse.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Replied


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## nextproject (Nov 18, 2007)

looks pretty damn good. wish it came with flow numbers, but oh well. what are you going with for management? i dont know if a chipped setup will work. you may have already mentioned it but im on the work computer and am too lazy to go back and see if you did.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

I'm running C2 stage 2 chip for 272* and up cam. It should work. Not saying its going to get me as much HP as stand alone, but it should work.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5165911280/

I was thinking as I put my head on tonight:
Is there a way I could get the cam 180* out of phase with the crank? And then what about the distributor? I think the cam will not be an issue as long as I line up the timing marks. Then its just a matter of the distributor. I gotta read through the bently again. Anyone have any advice to make sure I don't bend valves and get it running the first time?


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

The dizzy is a little tricky in my experience and opinion. You get that off by a few teeth and no start :banghead:

You need to losen the belt up and spin that gear until you are certain that the dizzy (rotor) lines up with the timing mark... move it back and forth until you are certain that the middle is the middle (rotate the gear until the rotor moves after the timing mark and than before), and then pull up on the belt tight until it slips into the cog gear than wrap it up to the gear (hold the gear too so it doesn't move as you wrap the belt to the cam). Normally you have to rotate the cam only slightly to get a good tight belt to fit... the timing mark on the cam is not always perfect it will/can be off just slightly but the motor will be timed.

I hope that helps :thumbup:
(I've done it... ALOT)


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

The C2 chip will work perfectly fine with any cam up to a 288* .


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

I'm more worried about bending valves. But, I set #1 to TDC and the mark on the cam gear is lined up with the timing mark on the plastic. Once I get ready to put the belt on I'll put the stock balancer on for temporary reference so that is exact. I really can't see how I could run into any problems??


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

macanic21 said:


> I'm more worried about bending valves. But, I set #1 to TDC and the mark on the cam gear is lined up with the timing mark on the plastic. Once I get ready to put the belt on I'll put the stock balancer on for temporary reference so that is exact. I really can't see how I could run into any problems??


You shouldn't be able to get the cam timing off by that much for bending valves....
If you do, than you'll be band from getting within 10 foot radius from any automobile with tools


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

haha alright alright. 

Got the block painted Monday. Now, I gotta pull the pan off the old motor to make sure of how the pump and stuff goes together. Once that is done I'll put the timing belt on and start on the accessories!


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Good news! I got the timing belt installed and rolled the motor over with not problems and I seem to have compression. I got the thing timed dead on the first time without even having to jump a tooth anywhere. Now I gotta figure out the complicated mess of interwoven bracketry that bolts up to the motor.

I have a new plan of attach with reguards to the AEG manifold. I'm thinking AEG lower and ABA upper with an ABA lower adapter plate  !!! I'm trying to keep the stock TB and PVC configuration and it doesn't look like I can modify the AEG upper easily. I think I may be able to just about get away with porting out the ABA upper and lower adapter plate. It is going to be close on the outer 2 runners. I may have to have someone weld some extra material on there to match the ports.


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## nextproject (Nov 18, 2007)

is the stock intake manifold going to limit the flow of such a modified head? I'd call upon scientific rabbit for a ported manifold. equal flow to all cylinders and i think its something in the neighborhood of 20% more flow? if you have spent the cash on to get an extremely high flowing (relatively speaking) 8v head, why skimp on the intake?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

macanic21 said:


> I have a new plan of attach with regards to the AEG manifold. I'm thinking AEG lower and ABA upper with an ABA lower adapter plate  !!! I'm trying to keep the stock TB and PVC configuration and it doesn't look like I can modify the AEG upper easily. I think I may be able to just about get away with porting out the ABA upper and lower adapter plate. It is going to be close on the outer 2 runners. I may have to have someone weld some extra material on there to match the ports.


I think this is a stupid idea and you are just opening a can of worms here. Either run a full MKIV configuration, or just wait till you have the money for an SRI. 

As long as you have all the proper AEG components, you can use the MKIII throttlebody and STILL have the proper PCV setup. 

Here's an early pic of my MKIV swap. As you can see everything was hooked up and proper. 










Again, don;'t waste time and your money trying to make this work. At the end of the day, you still have a poor flowing intake manifold. At least with running a MKIV manifold, you get a bit more overall flow and a pretty engine cover to hide the ugliness that is the ABA.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Yeah I know Travis but I want to be different... Looking at the ABA upper and the AEG upper I think the AEG may actually have longer runners. This means that the power loss is not necessarily in the runner length as much as it is in the ridiculously smaller runner diameter of the ABA piece. I will have no problems getting the cross sectional area of the ABA upper up to par and big enough to flow what I need. The runners only neck down about an inch or 2 before the flange and are easily ported. I may actually totally remove the dividers between the runners to shorten the runner length. The only problem I may run into is creating a smooth transition on the outer walls of the outer 2 runners. The AEG setup is wider overall due to the bigger runners. This is where using the ABA lower flange as an adapter plate will help me. The runners are angled in towards each other which will help narrow the setup down to meet the ABA upper. 

Does anyone know what the actual diameter of say a USRT SRI tube is? I'm going to compare the AEG lower to my ports in the head and see where I stand. Remember, I didn't really hog out the upper part of the ports in the head too much. I basically made them the same from the intake flange the whole way down to the seats.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Ever hear the phrase "You can put lipstick on a pig, but at the end of the day, its still a pig." ?

You're not going to gain anything with this project. You're still utilizing the stock manifolds regardless....only you are trying to make something work that isnt going to gain you anything in the long run. Believe me on this....stock manifolds are not the way to make power. Just getting 5-6whp out of a MKIV manifold takes cutting up the plenum to get at the inside, rewelding it, and on top of that, flow benching it to equalize airflow through all four runners. There is no gain to be had with a MKIII upper. 

You're wasting your time bud, but do what you gotta do. :thumbup:


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

I think this is what your looking for http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4687491-TECH-OEM-Intake-manifold-dyno-MKIII-vs-MKIV

The ABA intake is interesting. We ported one - tested with substantial increase in flow but it wasn't worth much power. We replotted the dyno charts so its easier to read here. http://www.scientificrabbit.com/node/27

I think the main issue with the ABA intake is the small diameter at the joint between upper and lower sections. The mk4 lower has much better taper and inside diameter for the sharp turn. I do think in the test pages we list the plenum volumes are different also. Most OEM plenums are to small anyway.
Would be interesting to see a ABA upper mated to the MK4 lower, but they don;t align well/at all. Think I have a picture of them next to each other if you need it.

Would be much easier to take a mk4 intake can cut the plenum and flip the TB to the side you want it on.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Yeah, I guess I should look into what it takes to get a AEG style valve cover on so it will clear the AEG upper. That was what I was planning originally. My point is that If you port out the 2" of runner at the flange of the ABA upper I think it would be able to flow as much as a ported AEG upper. The plenum area would also be much bigger. I know they don't line up well at all. The ABA lower flange adapter plate idea would help that. 

Well Travis I know you might be right. So, post up some dimensions of a SRI runner, and prove it!  The differences between the AEG and ABA lowers are significant. I think the effects will be compounded with a ported big valve head.

So clear something up for me ny. They are just porting the lower manifolds correct? Are the porting out the entire thing or just the lower portion of the lowers? Its kind of confusing the way they word it. Maybe that is by design...


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

What exactly do you want me to prove....my experience?

FWIW, here is my blueprint dimensions for my dual-plenum SRI.


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

I don't think its intentionally written to be confusing, but not much effort was taken to make it clear what work exactly was done. I think our focus was to outline the performance differences.

I would say that 90% of the porting work is done in the lower sections of the mk3/mk4 intakes.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Ah, sweet! It's not that I don't think you know what your talking about Travis. I just wanted to see some #'s behind why you were saying what you were saying. 

So I see that for a AEG lower to be comparable in runner size I would have to expand it about 6mm. Thats quite a difference. I'll have to measure the ports in my head to see where I stand (haven't even really compared them to the AEG piece yet). There's no sense in going bigger on the mani than the head. Hopefully I won't be regretting not taking the head ports out more. Although i don't know that it would have gained me much. They are basically straight to the seats.


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## dudeman08 (Feb 23, 2009)

macanic21 said:


> Ah, OK. So you could have probably benefited from a little more timing. I just scanned my car and I had a Bank 1 rich p0172... What the heck do I do about that? I guess its time to replace that O2 sensor.


i have the stage 2 PEM on my car and until i swapped my head and put my 276* cam in, i had this code. i was running a neuspeed 256* cam and had the code. your cam is too small and not letting enough air in to mix with the fuel. it probably suffers in the bottom end but picks up in the top like mine did. with the 276* cam in now, the only code i get is some stupid error from the chip, but its w/e. my car runs great now though. just gotta put my msd setup on it and try to get in contact with usrt on the long runner intake mani i order almost 2 months ago. still havnt gotten it yet.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

dudeman08 said:


> i have the stage 2 PEM on my car and until i swapped my head and put my 276* cam in, i had this code. i was running a neuspeed 256* cam and had the code. your cam is too small and not letting enough air in to mix with the fuel.


THats the dumbest thing I ever read. You realize thats why you have a MAF sensor...right? The cam duration has nothing to do with that code. :screwy:


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## dudeman08 (Feb 23, 2009)

tdogg74 said:


> THats the dumbest thing I ever read. You realize thats why you have a MAF sensor...right? The cam duration has nothing to do with that code. :screwy:


lol. well, thats the only thing i could think of, and a few people suprisingly agreed with me, so i went with it. couldnt have been the dumbest thing you ever read. sounded good at the time. lol. you dont think very well when youre really tired after a long day at work and then school right after. i just have a funny issue where i have to let my car get to operating temp before i can drive it without any issues like bucking and hesitation and stalling. im not getting a code for rich, i wonder what it is. after its warmed up, its perfectly fine. runs like a raped date and spins wheels in second gear up to 45-50 mph.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

The only thing I was thinking of Travis, was that maybe the air flow was below the range of the chip due to the stock parts and it the chip couldn't pull enough fuel.... Maybe these computers work differently, but with other fuel injection setups they have a range of adjustment and can't go out of that. If the air flow was below the minimum range programmed into the chip, it would have sent fuel to a minimum but it would have still been too much. IDK what the problem was but it happened after I only changed the chip. I hope it doesn't come back with this new motor.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Nope. Cam duration has nothing to do with it, sorry. I ran 4 different cams with my PEM; Stock, 268/260, 276, and a 288. Never ONCE popped a code. Your MAF measures the load on the motor, reports that voltage to the ECU and then the ECU adjusts fuel trim with the aid of your O2 sensor. That's the MAF's job, to measure air density. 

That code is either a MAF issue (dirty or broken) or you got a vacuum leak. The chip takes everything out of the comfy stock "safe" zone and replaced the tables with an aggressive tune. If there are any issues with sensors, they will come out.


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## dudeman08 (Feb 23, 2009)

gottcha. i know i have a small evap leak that im still trying to find, but i doubt thats the problem. maybe my maf is going bad, seeing as how its the original one. its weird though because it runs perfectly fine once its up to operating temp. the idle smooths out a little, even with the big arse cam, and quiets down a bit. ill have to get a vid for you to take a look at.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

dudeman08 said:


> gottcha. i know i have a small evap leak that im still trying to find, but i doubt thats the problem. maybe my maf is going bad, seeing as how its the original one. its weird though because it runs perfectly fine once its up to operating temp. the idle smooths out a little, even with the big arse cam, and quiets down a bit. ill have to get a vid for you to take a look at.


I had a 6 month old MAF when I put in the PEM for the first time. I kept on getting really weird closed-loop, super lean readings on my wideband. Thought the chip was messed up. Swapped to a different MAF, and it went away. Aggressive tunes bring out issues that you thought were non-existent with stock parts. Nature of the beast I guess.


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## dudeman08 (Feb 23, 2009)

yeah, i guess you got a point. ive replaced all the typical sensors that go bad like the oil pressure sensors (high and low), both coolant sensors, and both o2 sensors. i guess maybe i should try a new maf? by having an aggressive tune, like you said, takes the computer out of its "safe" stock parameters and calls on a bigger demand from all the sensors for more engine output. so, im guessing so cant keep up with what the chip needs, untill my car is heated up.i guess id need a vagcom to see everything and how its working. ill have to check my bentley manual and test my maf too to check and see if thats an issue.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Got the lower intake on, and the injectors cleaned and reinstalled. I finally got bolts for the oil pan so I can get that on. I think I finally got everything painted that I need to. Now I have to begin installing accessories onto the block. Who knows when I will be able to work on it again. I'll be busy from now until Monday.... Oh, well.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Oil pan is on, rear main seal is on, accessory bracketry is on as much as is going on before I put the motor back in. I'm going to hang some wiring and sensors on the motor and get the trans put on yet before I clean the engine bay and slap her in!!! 

Got a sweet Christmas present last night! Craftsman 14 drawer bottom box with latching drawers! Its sweet


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Nice. Wife hit Sears on black Friday and got me a new tool set and some specialty tools (the one I lost in the fire) She saved an s-load of money buying the stuff that day!


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Latest problem:

I went to put the clutch together. I got the pressure plate bolted up fine but when I went to put on the Eurospec flywheel, I realized that it had 2 pins instead of 1 like my original. I did some comparing and found that 1 of the pins shared a common location with the stocker, and the stocker fit on the new pressure plate. So, I just cut off the extra pin off and put the thing together. 

Is this going to work?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Yes.

That pin is the difference from the older 020's and the newer 020 trans. No worries.

You get the kit from ECS?


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Alright, thanks. I knew there were differences in the old ones but I wasn't sure if they would interchange like that.

No... Prolly shoulda told them what I wanted but at the time I wasn't sure and figured they would get me something good. Its a Spec SV282. Its a stage 2, the friction material pattern looks pretty good, its a sprung center.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

http://www.lmperformance.com/spec.asp 

Here are the specs on the clutch I got. Its the stage 2, looks decent. 

I'm going to try to get an engine hoist tonight so I can get the trans put on. Once I get the engine bay cleaned I'll be ready to drop this thing in!


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

STUPID OBX!!! Remember when I was complaining about that header and how terrible it fit? Then people said that it wasn't so bad, and I said well maybe they are right. Well they weren't! I got the engine in and tried to put the header on. I hits the firewall and the O2 sensor is clocked wrong and hits the cross member. Now i have to completely unwrap my nice fiberglass wrap and cut apart my brand new header!!! Stupid crap, what is so hard about making some tubing with the right bends, its not like this is even a tight engine compartment.... 

The good news is that the engine is in, my clutch works and now all I have to do is put all the accessories back on, connect the wiring and put the radiator and bumper back on!


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Dude, you must have gotten the runt of the litter...I didnt have any contact issues with either of mine. Weird.

What position and location did you weld your O2 bung? It should be as high as possible (without making contact) to keep and condensation from ruining the sensor tip. (Im sure you already know that). I had my bung installed adjacent to the one that was already there on the collector.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

I was talking about the bung that came already welded in the header. They welded it to far towards the bottom of the collector and the end of the O2 sensor hits the cross member that holds the rack. The secondary bung that I have after my "cat" is in the factory location and is fine. I'm glad I bought that stainless welding wire.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

I think I came up with a solution to my header problem. I tried bending and that didn't work. Now that I think about it I think Stainless is one of the harder metals to bend. I'm going to cut about 1/2" out of the primaries right at the flanges. That will bring it off the firewall. Hopefully even with the stupid way they bent it, it wont hit anything when the motor moves. They bent this thing in almost the worst possible way. There is a huge hole there they had to shoot at and they couldn't have missed worse....


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Hacked!*

Didn't spend too much time making it look pretty since I was going to wrap it. My warp job looks terrible. Last time I spent 2 days on it, this time I spent 1 hour... Lets just say I wanted to get the stupid thing done. Just have to hose clamp the wrap and weld in the flex couplers and the exhaust is ready. 









http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5384719737/ 









http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5385319770/ 









http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5385319186/


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Well I thought it was going to be simple, wrong again. 

I welded the flex couplers onto the cat, looked through it and saw that the pipe I had driven through the cat was badly warped and cracked almost in half. I cut the flex couplers back off and now i have to cut the cat off of my parts car and gut that. I guess the pipe just got too hot inside the cat shell. Oh well.

I also have to order more pipe and eliminate my glass pack because it won't fit with the flex couplers.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

HA! my post number was 454! thats a good engine  

Fired the motor up tonight! Tried it a few times and got a cough and backfire. "man that really sounds like its 180* out. "Ugh, you idiot #1 is at the FRONT of the engine!" :banghead:

Once I fixed the timing it fired but is down 1 or 2 cylinders. I exhaust pipe was cold but I think I may have 1 cylinder firing on the intake and one on exhaust, not really sure what the problem is. I haven't looked into it yet. #2 exhaust was cold. I tested the injectors before I put them back in. Could be ignition or fuel i guess. Don't think it would be compression. Anyone have any ideas?

Wish me luck.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Its Running!!*

Got the #2 problem worked out: loose injector connector.

The NEW radiator leaks a littlebut I rolled the dice and took it our for its first spin tonight! And, it made it through the break in pretty well. My only complaint so far is that it is not very snappy or responsive to quick throttle inputs. I'm not sure if the cam timing is off a tooth. It does seem pretty decent up top. I'm gonna start playing with the cam timing to try to improve it.

Is this a common thing with cammed and ported 2.0's? I'll take a video sometime to give you an idea of how it reacts. Even at 3k, if i blip it to the floor it will barely increase RPM. I had hopped for a snappier engine.

The mid range and top end seems pretty strong. Obviously it started to die past stock red line due to the ABA manifold. It feels like it could chirp 2nd but the clutch is still pretty soft. Hopefully it'l get sticky once its broken in.

It doesn't really lope that much either, kinda rough and a little cranky down, which I like!


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

With a ported head you'll have to advance (correct me if I'm wrong) the cam timing a certain amount to achieve a truely timed engine (how much depends on how much you shaved--Travis will know how much). You have an adj. gear.....play around with it a bit until you put the powerband where you want it. For your test drives I'd recommend starting at around 1500rpms in 3rd gear. It will make it easier to tell when the power is coming on and when it falls off.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

porting has nothing to do with timing...that decking the head. 

And when you DO port the head, and run a larger cam (276*?) you do lose that snappy super-low end. All that torque has moved up the power band. But I am curious to see if you arent retarded one tooth. That would certainly make the bottom end feel flat until about 3500-4000.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Yeah, Im wandering if I'm a tooth off as well. I'll play with the cam timing a little. 

Is there a good way to verify the ignition timing on these things or should I just plug in with VAG-COM cuz that will be 100% accurate? I do have a light I that has an advance knob on (need that for tuning real engines  ).

Thanks guys! This is going to be fun to tune.


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

tdogg74 said:


> porting has nothing to do with timing...that decking the head.


Sh*t....hahaha That's what I meant. I'm thinking about too many things behind this damn screen. :laugh:


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Played with the cam timing tonight.

I don't think its off a tooth. When I advance it all the way I get a pretty good bottom end with noticeable sacrifice on top. When I retard it all the way I get a big hit up top but it almost doesn't want to accelerate down low. (do I have the advance/retard direction right?) Straight up is the best of both worlds and it has a pretty smooth power delivery. 

I'm wandering if my 2K RPM dead spot is still there lurking. I think I'm going to try to get another TB. Wheres the best place to get a new one?

The trans is loosening up nicely. Reverse still crunches sometimes though...


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

I have a good used TB for sale that came off my old motor. 

And if your ignition timing was off, you would have a P0341 CEL.


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## jsneed (Jan 26, 2011)

When it comes to adjusting cam timing, it's best to do it a degree or two at a time, not just 0 to +8 or +8 to -8. There is going to be a little comprimise in the middle. The front side of the timing belt gets shorter when you deck a head, so in order to be exactly where you need to be, make sure the tension is right to start with, set the crank to TDC, then check the cam, you will likely have to adjust it forward (advanced) a degree or two. If you want more down low, with a deramped TB and ported head, you'll want to be somewhere in the 3-4 degree range. Try it there.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

ugh, my last post didn't.... I'm going to try to post some pics up soon.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Friday,04,March,2011,10:35:37:46602
VCDS Release 10.6.3: Generic OBD2
Mode 03: Emission related fault codes

Address 10 (Engine): 1 Fault Found:
P1582 - Idle Adaptation Limit Reached

Pending DTC's
Friday,04,March,2011,10:35:59:46602
VCDS Release 10.6.3: Generic OBD2
Mode 07: Pending emission related fault codes

Address 10 (Engine): 2 Faults Found:
P0172 - Fuel Trim; Bank 1: System Too Rich
P0103 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70): Signal too High

New fault codes as of the drive home last Sunday night. I'm going to do a throttle body adaptation in a few minutes. 


Do you guys think I should get another MAF? Should I call C2?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

FWIW I had to replace my MAF when I first ran PEM. 

What does it drive like when you slowly dip into the throttle? (like going from closed to open loop, but without flooring it) Does it hesitate/jerk on you?


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## Rolands76xx (Sep 21, 2009)

Im getting that slight jerk / hesitation on my aeg turbo..., same dtcs for signal too high on maf and running rich, also catalyst under threshold.... Buti just puta brand new maf in and helped a lil .... Maybe exhaust leak?


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

It does slightly hesitate and sometimes spit and sputter at higher RMP. At lower RPM it does sometimes buck a little. It is still having the problem of maintaining a steady RPM. If I hit the gas so the RPM goes to 2500 and then hold it there it will get there and then drop 500, come back to 2500 and then instantly drop back down. It won't hold steady. TB pot 1 voltage was constant but pot 2 was fluctuating.

I also saw a throttle body adaptation out of range code after i did a TBA. Not sure what that means. I'll try to get more info on that. I cleared it and did another TBA. I'll see if it comes back.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

See if you can get your hands on a goof MAF and see what happens.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Latest scan after trying different (used) MAF.*

Friday,04,March,2011,15:43:30:46602
VCDS Version: Release 10.6.3

Address 01: Engine Labels: 037-906-259.lbl
Control Module Part Number: 037 906 259 
Component and/or Version: BFI ABA S2 003 HS V08
Software Coding: 00000
Work Shop Code: WSC 00000 
VCID: D9B7FB4E699F
1 Fault Found:

17990 - Idle Adaptation Limit Reached 
P1582 - 35-00 - - 

Readiness: 0000 0000


After replacing MAF with spare and clearing all codes.

Friday,04,March,2011,15:45:52:46602
VCDS Release 10.6.3: Generic OBD2
Freeze Frame Data for address 10
PID02 DTC that caused freeze frame data storage: P1582 
PID03 Fuel system 1/2 status: Open loop, conditions for closed loop not yet satisfied
PID04 Calculated load value: 8.6 % 
PID05 Engine coolant temperature: 15 °C 
PID06 Short Term Trim - Bank 1: 0.0 % 
PID07 Long Term Trim - Bank 1: 0.0 % 
PID12 Engine RPM: 1424 /min 
PID13 Vehicle speed: 0 km/h 

As soon as I clear the 1582 it comes back.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Swapped the original MAF back in and had the same P1582 problem. Do you think I have a vacuum leak? I'm getting a new MAF tomorrow, however its not from VW.... We'll see if it helps. Still had the idle adaptation out of range thing too.

I unplugged the MAF and the difference was almost unnoticeable (slightly worse RPM Hang and oscillation at 2500 RPM). Got the P1582 and MAF circuit to low code. I'm starting to think its not a MAF problem. No idea what it could be though. I already replaced the solenoid that is mounted to the air box a while ago.

The car has 300 mi on it since it was put back together. the CEL only came on in the last 30.


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## jsneed (Jan 26, 2011)

sounds like a vacuum leak... do you have a boost guage? check manifold vacuum?


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

What should manifold vacuum be with the 276* cam?


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## jsneed (Jan 26, 2011)

macanic21 said:


> What should manifold vacuum be with the 276* cam?


couldn't say exactly, altitude has a lot to do with it, but I'd say if you're not seeing at least 12 in/hg, you should be looking for vacuum leaks.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Car pulls 12-14" depending on where its idleing. I blocked off all vacuum ports except the FPR port. nothing made a difference. checked all manifold bolts & sprayed WD-40 around seals and found nothing. I don't think its a vac leak. if it is I have no idea where it would be leaking at. I'm going to swap the TB tomorrow and reseal the brass vacuum tap on the TB.

now what....


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Got a new Napa MAF. I think its junk, it threw low signal code immediately. I tried it with that old TB and it hardly ran at all and new MAF. It smelled very rich and stalled a lot. I put the better TB back in and it is better but it still has a problem idling down. When I hit the clutch at about 1500 RPMs (because if I don't it bucks), the idle will actually go up to almost 2k before dropping back to 1500, and then down to 1100 where it is supposed to be. It seemed to get better as I drove longer. I'll see if the MAF code ever goes away. If it doesn't I'm going to try to return the MAF and get a factory one. 

Is there a place to get factory parts other than the dealership? 

Here are the latest codes. I like the 2nd one!

Saturday,05,March,2011,11:45:02:46602
VCDS Version: Release 10.6.3

Address 01: Engine Labels: 037-906-259.lbl
Control Module Part Number: 037 906 259 
Component and/or Version: BFI ABA S2 003 HS V08
Software Coding: 00000
Work Shop Code: WSC 00000 
VCID: D9B7FB4E699F
3 Faults Found:

17990 - Idle Adaptation Limit Reached 
P1582 - 35-00 - - 
00543 - Maximum Engine Speed Exceeded -- Engine Warranty VOID! ;-) 
35-10 - - - Intermittent
16486 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70): Signal too Low 
P0102 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent

Readiness: 0000 0000


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

I went on about a 1 hour drive and found a few things. I found that what the car doesn't like is very light throttle driving. If I drive @ 35 through town, after a few min. it will start bucking and trying to stall. On the way home this happened again and got so bad that it stalled and I couldn't even drive. I restarted it and it ran for a few seconds and died again. I yanked the NAPA MAF and the car started and ran better than it has since I put it in. The idle still hangs a little but seems better. I'm going to try to return the MAF and get a OEM one. Anyone know where I can get one?


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

WELL... Here's the latest.

Messed around with the car tonight and it was totally ignoring the MAF. I could disconnect it and it would run better and the idle would not fluctuate nearly as much. On a whim i went and got the FPR out of the parts car. That was the first part i swapped in that actually made it run better!!. Cleared all codes and took it for a drive. The idle adaptation code is gone, CEL stayed off but here are the codes I pulled.

3 Faults Found:

16487 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70): Signal too High 
P0103 - 35-10 - - - Intermittent
00543 - Maximum Engine Speed Exceeded -- Engine Warranty VOID! ;-) 
35-10 - - - Intermittent
16556 - Fuel Trim; Bank 1: System Too Rich 
P0172 - 35-00 - - 

Readiness: 0000 0000


The fuel trim code only came up after it sat and idled for a while after the run. I used to have the MAF signal too high code.....

I'll post a vid of the way it runs now in a few days hopefully. Should I order a Bosh MAF?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

New MAF 100%. Get new...not a "known good used one".


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Well this last test was with a new MAF from NAPA. Since I'm still getting a code I'm going to swap my old one back in with this new FPR. If I still get a code I'm gona get a Bosh one.


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## mizzuh (Oct 13, 2010)

did you check your blinker fluid? I always have the darndest trouble with keeping that crap topped off.


ps, awesome build!


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSpt_J42XKo

Here's a vid of how its acting now. Sorry about the buzzing in the beginning. I had the camera resting on the steering wheel. Thats why I gotta get rid of the BFI stage .5 rear...


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## MonkeyBusiness (Jun 11, 2009)

When I first had my car flashed it would do something similar to that hang around 1500 then come back down to 1000. My only advise is to drive it around and see if it gets better.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Got the new Bosh FPR and MAF in last night. It is better but still has the same problem. I'm going to call C2 sometime and see what they have to say. I don't see why this would be a problem with my TB, I'm not getting any codes for that. 

Could it bet the coolant temp sensor (a local VW enthusiast said to replace that)? The problem is better after the car warms up.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Called C2 yesterday and they seemed pretty helpful. I emailed Ryan with a description of my problem and he is supposed to get back to me with which blocks he wants me to log. 

All other codes are gone except bank 1 rich.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5661969411/in/photostream
Engine bay pic, sorry about the poor quality...

So apparently I need to be running a bigger MAF housing for this chip. I didn't know that. Did anyone else know what? What exactly do I need to be using and can I make it work with my stock air box?


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## 02vwgolf (Oct 6, 2009)

Yeah i just read this and was wondering if you knew that, i have the c2 chip on my mk4 aegT and i had to get a larger housing for the maf to run it with their chip, I dont have a link to where to find it because i got mine off here used in the forced induction classified but that definitely helped out my car


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

Maniac...Just noticed on youtube that you went to PCT.....Small world, cause that's where I went to take my oral and practical tests to get my Airframe and Powerplant License. :beer:


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## jsneed (Jan 26, 2011)

macanic21 said:


> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5661969411/in/photostream
> Engine bay pic, sorry about the poor quality...
> 
> So apparently I need to be running a bigger MAF housing for this chip. I didn't know that. Did anyone else know what? What exactly do I need to be using and can I make it work with my stock air box?


MAF signal too high... yep, sounds like that's your problem... You should be able to find a bad VR maf pretty easily and put your sensor in it.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Will the VR MAF bolt up to my stock air box?


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## jsneed (Jan 26, 2011)

macanic21 said:


> Will the VR MAF bolt up to my stock air box?


I think no.. I can't remember exactly, but I remember the VR box being different. couse it's the same car, you could always get a whole VR airbox and it would look completely stock.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

macanic21 said:


> So apparently I need to be running a bigger MAF housing for this chip. I didn't know that. Did anyone else know what? What exactly do I need to be using and can I make it work with my stock air box?





macanic21 said:


> I'm running C2 stage 2 chip for 272* and up cam.


Wait....what? Since when do you need to run a VR MAF housing with this tune? Unless I'm way off, or they changed the tune somewhere down the line, the Stage2 C2 is more or less the same as the Stage2 BFI PEM. I never upgraded my MAF.


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

Yea, what's going on here.....The only tune that C2 produces that you would need a VR maf housing for is the 42# turbo software. I thought I kept reading that this car was n/a, then might be turbo for some reason, and back and forth. So what's the dealy?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

C2 website lists nothing for upgrading your MAF on N/A ABA software....just the street/race versions. (which street=all smog eqpt / race=smog delete)

Sorry, not trying to start a debate here, but them saying you need to upgrade your MAF for this software is odd. What's going to probably happen is you will put the bigger MAF on, and it wont even hold idle because it's running so lean. There is something funky going on between your MAF and throttle body. Especially since you mention the light throttle issues. Too bad you don't have a wide band hooked up to see what the A/F is doing. (thats a perfect indicator to see how your MAF is working)


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## jsneed (Jan 26, 2011)

PBWB said:


> Yea, what's going on here.....The only tune that C2 produces that you would need a VR maf housing for is the 42# turbo software. I thought I kept reading that this car was n/a, then might be turbo for some reason, and back and forth. So what's the dealy?


I seem to remember that being refered to as C2 stage 2 for a long time... I assumed it was a turbo car.:facepalm::laugh:


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

"Do you have the required larger maf housing?" (From Ryan @ C2 in a reply to my email)

I actually bought the chip from BFI on their black Friday sale. It is the chip that codes out the rear O2 sensor so you don't get a CEL for cat inefficiency (IDK if this is the race chip???). I was under the impression that they were just reselling the C2 chips. Is this incorrect?

I don't need a wide ban to tell you its rich. Even the stock O2 sensor says its rich. It sets the CEL for Bank 1 Rich! You can smell it, its that rich... Its rich when it idles, its rich when I cruse, its rich when you floor it.

I asked him what housing I need and all he replied was - "Do you have a VAG-COM cable?" So, I don't know what he is going to tell me. I hope its something though....

BTW it IS an NA motor. Biggest valves, P&P, soon to be AEG lower mani w/custom upper


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Let me clear up the C2/BFI chip stuff first.....

C2 has 2 versions of 2 versions of the chip. (confused?) There is the street and street/cam version. The street tune keeps everything smog compliant. I.E. Rear O2 and SIA active. Then there is the race/cam version. Same deal, but with the smog crap coded out. The PEM is like the C2 race version, only they call it stage 1/2. (1 for no cam, 2 for 'any' cam)

Now, you DON'T need anything but the stock MAF for this chip. Remember my motor? Stock 2.0 MAF. PERFECT fueling. I said this a couple pages ago.....when I first put the chip in, I had a lean issue that turned out to be the MAF. And when I replaced it with a new one, my problem went away. This tune will bring out ANY issue your motor has. This goes for worn MAF sensors, vacuum leaks, faulty throttle bodies, ect. 

I would be shocked if putting a larger MAF housing does anything but make you run super lean. I would also suggest PMing Jefnes3 (Jeff Atwood). He programed that software.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Thanks for that Travis!

I thought about the TB being a problem before but I'm tired of just throwing expensive parts at this thing. I have a brand new MAF, O2 and a vac leak would be causing a lean condition, not a rich one. I wanted someone to tell me from experience what is going on with this thing. Thats why I asked Ryan from C2. The TB is not new, but the again there are no codes for it either. 

I defiantly have the race version.

Who does Jeff work for?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

He went out on his own and is the founder of United Motorsports. (I think)


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## 02vwgolf (Oct 6, 2009)

Im sorry i said he had to upgrade like i did because i also thought he was saying he was running the #42 turbo software, which is what i have


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

jeff got back to me and said he cant help me because he isnt part owner anymore. Ryan from C2 said he will get me some blocks to log by noon today he also said that he thought I was FI but since im not i dont need the larger MAF housing.


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

macanic21 said:


> Ryan from C2 said he will get me some blocks to log by noon today he also said that he thought I was FI but since im not i dont need the larger MAF housing.


Exactamundo.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Yeah, thats all great and everything but he didn't get back to me..... I hope this doesn't turn into another APTuning affair.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Did you every buy/install a wide band AFR gauge? 

If not, you are just wasting time chasing your tail. That thing will tell you what/when/where you are going lean/rich.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

No I haven't done that. If I ever get serious into a carbureted real engine that will be one of the first purchases. If I don't have one that can log than whats the point? I'm not the one tuning the chip so unless I can get somebody who is doing the tuning in the car with me I'm not really going to be able to tell them specifically enough to help am I?

I did the logs Ryan wanted me to. I can email them to people if you guys want to see them. I'm not sure how to post them without making a graph and that is a pian... He had me log 1,2,5 1,3,5 25,10,3 for at least 5 miles each. I hope he gets back to me soon.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

tdogg74 said:


> He went out on his own and is the founder of United Motorsports. (I think)


Correct. And guess who he referred me to... APTuning. HA, if thats the only way I can get a hold of his stuff he can forget it!


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Something I noticed. When I try to hold it at 2k RPM and it flutters, the mode is jumping from idle to part throttle to overrun. IDK if this means anything or is just normal.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

I send another set of logs to Ryan. Hopefully he gets back to me this week with some info.

The first set he wanted was (1,2,5), (1,3,5), (25,10,3). The second was (1,2,3), (1,3,5), (1,25,5). I don't know if that means anything to anybody or not. Like I said, If you want to see them I'll send them to ya.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

I finally put a Borla muffler on tonight! It does sound much better than the Hooker and the Flowmaster. I wish it was a little louder and had a little more bark, but it has a nice growl when you are on it all through the RPM range. It is pretty quiet inside when cruising, but is still loud enough outside to let people know you are there when you mash it. The weld quality is pretty iffy though, its all OK but looks cheap...

Nothing back from Ryan yet.


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## CrazyMikeJr14 (Apr 12, 2008)

#700! 
THanks. 
Free Bump :laugh:


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## dudeman08 (Feb 23, 2009)

yo, i had the same light throttle and cruising issue you have and the flutering at 2000 rpms and about 2800 rpms. i bought a brand new tb and it went away and throttle response is amazing. i have this chip with head work, 276* cam and a full exhaust from the header back and a usrt long runner. it runs great now. ecs has the oem vdo brand (vdo is the oem manufacture for the vw part) for a little less than 300, compared to the same tb that has a vw logo and part number on it for 700. trust me dude, thisll fix a bunch of your problems. i did a data log before i got a new tb and it was sayin at idle that the throttle plate was open 66% and that it was closing the more you got on the gas. it doesnt do that anymore.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Thanks for the reply man^ Been a while since I've been on here (gettin married, house bla bla bla...). Anyway, I just ordered and installed a brand new VDO TB. Cleared the codes and have P1582 TB idle adaptation limit reached. I haven't done a TB adaptation with VAG-COM yet, hopefully that will fix it tomorrow. I have my doubts. The car is better with the new TB but still sucks....


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

HA!!! ive been chasing that p0172 code since waterfest which was when i dropped in a new head with a 270 cam and bfi stage2 chip....been going crazy replaced just about everything in there...like seriously evertthing....except that damn maf cause its like 3 hundo (did buy a new ebay one but i dont trust it...ill swap it out again tomorrow)...im afraid with the OEM im gonna buy it swap it in and still have that code pop up givin me the finger...swapped out like 3 tbs...evap purge valves...i could go on for hrs...but im still in the **** and its not lookin good...but im gonna fill u's guys in if i find the holy grail:banghead::banghead:


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

I found the holy grail! Remove the BFI chip. Swapped in my stock chip last night. Guess what, no bucking, stupid idle, and no P1582 code... I'm going to email C2 today.


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

stock chip with upgraded cam?


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Yep, lost a lot of power but I can drive it in town now.. It still bucks a little around 1500 RPM, especially when I'm in 1st gear in a parking lot or something. The idle doesn't hang and I can hold the RPM's steady without them fluttering at all. I set the cam to +8* so it would idle better and have some low end left. I burned half a tank and still don't have a CEL... I'm sure I will cuz i'm running no cat.


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

Yeah the one benefit with the chip is the ignoring of the rear o2 sensor...well I swapped in the eBay maf and now I got the p0172 and p0103 ones running rich the other maf high output....I'm not trusting this puppy gonna have to break down and get a new Bosch maf from gap.com...but for some reason I think I'm just gonna have to suck it up and let that bastid move in for good cause it don't seem like he's leaving...good luck with the car bro


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

I spoke with Chris from C2 and he said there really isn't anything he can do for me. He doesn't know why the chip doesn't work and he said he can try to set up with BFI so I can return it.... Guess I have to start looking around for someone who can burn me a custom setup that plays nice with the rest of the electronics. And don't say APTuning!


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## gtiswapped96 (Dec 6, 2009)

Unitronics perhaps?


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Will they be able to provide the kind of aggressive tune I want, aka 30* or more of timing?


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

MMMM found 2 dealers near me but I'm wandering if Unitronic does NA tuning?? All their stuff on their website seems to be for turbo applications....


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

FYI I've had the same throttle issues and I suspected it was my deramped TB (stepper motor becoming faulty), but as it turns out what actually fixed the issue was swapping ECUs. I transferred the BFI chip over and everything and it worked fine.

So with this throttle issue there are 3 main fixes: Replace either the chip, ecu, or TB....do all 3 and you're guaranteed to get it right. lol



macanic21 said:


> MMMM found 2 dealers near me but I'm wandering if Unitronic does NA tuning?? All their stuff on their website seems to be for turbo applications....


Uni only does flash tunes.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Well, my dad has a 97 I could try to swap that ECU in. Everything else is new. I just think its stupid that the chip runs like it does, especially since they advertise better idle control.... 

Get this! The stock chip didn't set a CEL for the CAT inefficiency either! I'm CEL free for the first time since I rebuilt this thing!

Thanks


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

subscribed!! 

will have to read through later though...gotta run errands...hope to get to bottom of bfi/c2 chip woes as well!!


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Alright guys, just to update this thing a little bit. It's been a while since I have done anything to the car. It has been running great except for the chip issue. My stock A-arm bushings finally gave it up after 200k mi and auto-crossing. I put in some Prothane polyurethane bushings and I like them. I haven't driven them much yet but the front end is Much tighter. It didn't seem harsh at all over bumps or when transitioning from power to braking. 

My computer died and i swapped in an R out of a 98. That promptly died after I hit 6k RPM on the test drive. I concluded that something in my ignition circuit is killing the computer. The last time this happened was due to the coil wire falling off. I ordered a stock coil, wire set, and new cap and rotor. I had previously been running and MSD and crappy aftermarket Taylor wires. I really hope this fixes it because Im down to my last spare computer.... 

I need to fix some rust in the coming months and I also want to get this AEG lower intake swap done. I have some ideas of how to be tricky with it  I'm going to do something I haven't saw before.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

So I'm having problems getting this thing back on the road. It took out 2 ECU's so i replaced all the ignition with factory stuff. It runs now on a year correct ECU (no letter code). The problem is that I now have a cam position sensor code.... I'm going to check the timing tomorrow. It runs smooth now, almost too smooth. I'm wandering if it jumped a tooth or sheared a key. It's just funny that it killed 2 computers and threw this code all at the same time. :banghead: 

Anyone have any guesses?


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

I discovered tonight that my timing has slipped somehow. It seams that the intermediate shaft and cam are in sync but the crank is not. The key in the cam is fine. I just need to get socket tomorrow so I can remove the crank bolt and check that key. If the key is good it would have had to jump teeth at the crank. I did notice the belt seemed a little loose although not by much. 

Could this have killed my computers?


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Hey guys, need some major help on this one!

I fixed my timing, checked and re-checked the distributor, cam and crank, all are good. 

I keep getting P0341 cam position sensor code and my computers keep dieing! I have killed 3 computers now and have replaced all ignition components as well as the distributor. 

What could be causing my P0341 and killing the ignition circuit in my computers??? I have no idea what to check next....


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## vento86 (Oct 13, 2008)

You not having proper power or grounds is killing your ecus. I would check voltage all across the fuse box and ecu. And timing can't kill an ecu. That p code is for hall sensor. Make sure you're timed right on the dizzy


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Alright. But, I've killed an ECU just by having the coil wire come off. If there is a problem in the ignition circuit that will kill them as well. I guess I'm going to have to get some sand paper and go over all the connections with a fine tooth comb. 

When I'm at TDC comp stroke the rotor is pointed dead on @ #1 plug wire on the cap. The only thing I'm thinking is that it needs to be a tooth or 2 more advanced since the spark doesn't actually fire @ TDC.

Thanks for the advice man! Any other ideas?


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

macanic21 said:


> When I'm at TDC comp stroke the rotor is pointed dead on @ #1 plug wire on the cap. The only thing I'm thinking is that it needs to be a tooth or 2 more advanced since the spark doesn't actually fire @ TDC.
> 
> Thanks for the advice man! Any other ideas?


No go. Just visually set TDC on the crank and go about things that way. As far as the dist. goes, line that up on the mark....there is a tolerance window where you won't throw a code (IIRC it was like 14* or something). If your head has been decked for whatever reason your cam will appear off around half a tooth (depending on how much you shaved).....also running a spacer OR stacking gaskets will throw things off a bit.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Yeah, I figured. However, the cam position should have nothing to do with the cam position code. This code is derived from the position of the distributor which is monitored by the hall effect sensor in the distributor. This can be changed independently of the cam due to the dist. being driven off the intermediate shaft. These engines have only a crank position sensor and a "distributor position sensor" (aka cam position sensor). Therefore, if you are getting a code it can only be related to these two sensors and the positions of the crank and distributor. You can set the cam anywhere and the ECU will not know the difference.

Correct?

The only other thing I can think of that would cause this cam code is the wiring between the sensor and the ECU.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

On our LeMons race Golf we have stock aba engine and it was off a tooth or two on the cam gear and we got a cam position/sensor code CEL...we loosened tensioner and slipped belt off, re-aligned cam/gear and put belt back on etc and code went away. We had some Volvo guys helping us and none of them believed me that the cam pos sensor was on the dizzy until i showed them...ha.

As i PMed ya my personal Golf aba head was milled .040 and thats about 2 degree retarded if you line everything up at TDC (so you advance and reset your 0)....as PBWB was asking--are you milled at all?? If not you might be running too far advanced and freaking out the sensor pulling a code. The 276 cam generally likes to run advanced 2-4 degrees as well...but maybe just try setting yours back to 4 degrees advanced (total) and see if the code clears. If your dizzy is lined up and no cracks in rotor or messy cap etc and your crank is lined up then thats all i could see..? Does this change between ecu chips? If you put the c2/bfi chip in does this code go away and you get the p1582 idle code instead?


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

As for ecu and grounds...check the ground strap from ignition coil to head (corner of valve cover)? Is it exposed?? You can take off and put some new shrink tube over...and check the grounds on the block...mine were nasty and had to be cleaned...i try to spray em w some wd40 every now and then to keep em clean and so they dont corrode again. I even sprayed wd40 on the grounds for my tail lights and it "solved" some grounding issue i was having back there (prob from using too much dielectric grease i discovered)...

Also check all your grounds and wiring?
http://faculty.ccp.edu/faculty/dreed/Campingart/jettatech/techset/index.htm


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Does anyone know where the 3 wires from the CPS are located on the ECU connector?


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Check all grounds. I had some minor conductivity between the power on pin 3 and pin 1 at the CPS. I wired 12V separately to the sensor. I disconnected the O2 sensors as well. Charging the battery tonight so I can try it again tomorrow....


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Car has been running with the CPS power feed rewired to the battery and now tapped into the yellow and black switch power that feeds the ECU. O2 sensors plugged back in and the car is running good. I am also back to running the C2 chip and for some reason, it seems to be running better... We'll see after I get some more miles on it. 

The ECU i'm running is throwing a p1613. I believe due to the fact that it is out of an auto car.


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

everything else sorted out? hows the thing been running? 

did a quick search online and your theory seems good for why ya getting that code since a manual trans doesnt have the sensor like the auto trans. 



macanic21 said:


> Car has been running with the CPS power feed rewired to the battery and now tapped into the yellow and black switch power that feeds the ECU. O2 sensors plugged back in and the car is running good. I am also back to running the C2 chip and for some reason, it seems to be running better... We'll see after I get some more miles on it.
> 
> The ECU i'm running is throwing a p1613. I believe due to the fact that it is out of an auto car.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*FV-QR*

You can recode the ECU via VAGCOM 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/allmotor8v/decodepump.jpg


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## The Big V (Jul 11, 1999)

911_fan said:


> You can recode the ECU via VAGCOM
> 
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/allmotor8v/decodepump.jpg


 Thats super useful. Why is there a difference w some Cabrio coding vs Golf/Jetta? I've heard different coding for adjusting idle say for expl between later Cabrio (mk3.5) and wonder if 98-99 mk3's follow similar coding/blocks...? This is all in Bentley or different guide? I'm a vagcom noob and gonna try to setup on a netbook asap.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

^ wish I knew how to do all that stuff. If it sets the CEL I'll eventually try to figure it out. If not, I don't have that many spare hours..... 

The car has been running great with the chip in this new ECU. I haven't driven it much yet but it has been through a few heat cycles and the idle control is great. We'll see if it screws itself up or not. I wired the CPS back to switched power so the problem is permanently fixed. 

I can't wait to start driving this thing again. Looking forward to autocross this year! Gotta buy another set of tires, guess I'm going to go with the Nitto 555's again. The Prothane A-arm bushings seem really nice. The front end seems much more controlled and precise. I'm going to have it aligned and the camber set to -.5. I know thats not a lot but it still needs to not kill the tires as it will be mostly street driven. 

My heater core blew up I think. Lots of fog out the vents. I bypassed it and haven't had a problem since. I bet that's a pain to replace....


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Long Time No See*

Hey guys, been a while since I was on here. I've been working on a 6 month long project to repair the rust and repaint my car. Also, never got anything figured out with the C2 chip! And still have a second gear problem which I think is a clutch problem. But, who knows, APTuning did have their hands in the trans.... That probably won't be fixed until it breaks. Paints not done yet but here are a few pics of the process.
Photos are newest to oldest in this post.
Put a light smoke on the lights. I'll do this for anyone that wants as well.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yy140ikurez1kbd/2014-02-15 14.24.37.jpg
Comparison in the clear of the back up light to the clear of an un-smoked light.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b39uz5ixueli4f8/2014-02-15 17.02.59.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cy1w6fob76bo74a/2014-02-15 14.25.37.jpg
High-build, 1 coat on body. We took a short cut here and didn't block the body. I just didn't feel like spending the time since its a driver.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/txy4ab1jfz990rs/2014-02-01 19.12.37.jpg
Wrapped for multiple coats of high-build on the rockers. I cut and welded sections so they had filler and we blocked them.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ww7lyltsw2nk84/2014-01-23 18.10.29.jpg
Hungry Hungry VW. Finally found a bat that worked.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1v9zo5f8sao8p85/2014-01-18 15.58.25.jpg


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Work on the rockers.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/o7m3ld7m6t6dv7l/2014-01-12 18.37.48.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s1654gdojpfii43/2014-01-12 18.37.38.jpg
Just the car.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cnpr57dbyppu3tq/2014-01-10 18.53.51.jpg
Its all 1 color again!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/annc4ttso4pxah2/2014-02-14 20.38.13.jpg
That's about all for now. I have a cool intake project to finish up once the body is done. Then auto cross this year and hopefully a dyno run when this is back on the road.
I'm using Deltron 9700 pre-mixed black and Deltron clear. Used PPG shop line sealer and high build.


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

https://www.dropbox.com/sc/wjp9uybk3gu2ogn/ai3oj-DRVG
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/ll9w8fbpa1a9s1a/_XSDmFVLs7
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/c9i9dvgq1zox2bb/9pbDHcdNJc

Don't know why pics won't imbed from Dropbox anymore...


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

looks great :thumbup:


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Thanks man!
Got the car prepped for paint tonight. Final color going on tomorrow and the painting will be DONE!!


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Paint laid down! We put almost 5 quarts of clear on including the under-side of the hood. 2 coats of black. There is a lot of dirt in some spots, hopefully it will come out and we won't have to re-clear anything. The wheels look better now that its shiny. Now back to the work, sanding and buffing.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ylzafhx9qcf890k/2014-02-22 17.41.55.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/o3sc3hdyu75kuam/2014-02-22 17.40.56.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/htke6mkjc8o6vgq/2014-02-22 17.40.39.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/npo2mtbhsbp3hka/2014-02-22 17.40.02.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mp26qdv949iurq0/2014-02-22 17.39.19.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/29onw8150tctrpo/2014-02-19 05.19.18.jpg

I've been thinking, has anyone done an aftermarket stand alone ECU such as MS using the factory plug? This would be so I could plug the factory ECU back in for emissions if I would need it. If I were to build one what MS should I go with? I didn't find any MS PNP ECU's for this thing.


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

you want a VEMS lugtronic setup. He makes a PNP setup so you can maintain your old wiring and simply plug in the standalone system


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

WOW, thats crazy expensive! Yeah, I want that but I'm not paying for it. I'll buy another C2 chip to try before I do that. I could turbo this thing for less....
A pic of clear sanding.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ww86ddumzj99md5/2014-03-01 15.06.29.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i7bmtczst4cdmrx/2014-02-28 14.04.36.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wllhmb1gtlu1mj8/2014-02-28 14.04.18.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0tpi5cml4hn17fa/2014-02-28 14.03.36.jpg
Hopefully my buffer setup will be here by the end of the week so we can buff a panel and see how it looks.


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

Pics aren't working on my taps talk :thumbdown: 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Sorry, they are just links to my dropbox. I used be able to imbed from there, but dropbox doesn't give me the url anymore so I can't figure out how.

Perhaps an easier way to view them, folder.
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/f0x0wtbqooptots/tKRNMcrbsH


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## 1broknrado (Jul 6, 2005)

Go into Dropbox. Open picture. Then right click on the picture and open in new window. You should be able to use that URL to embed it 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)




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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

HA! R-click, view origonal, copy image location!
















Although, half the time I get "cannot display because image contains errors....."


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Man, thats a good looking car, and I don't mean the VW. This is when I was welding up the new rockers. My brother had the camaro rolled outside and the sun came out!








Trunk buffed
















Hood and fender, hood is dirty in these pics.


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## werfu (Dec 18, 2005)

Nice build man opcorn: Just read it from first post. Got to say it gives me a lot of idea what to do on my '97 Trek. Keep up the good work :thumbup:


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)




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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*DONE!!*


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

*Back to the engine!*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFI5jG5OuXw&list=UUhbHzVO0rqy-zFRkat2FClg


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

I would have still welded that manifold.....JB weld doesn't hold up to higher temperatures from heat soak for long periods of time (over hundreds of heat cycles), and it inevitably will crack, causing a leak.

-Apple
via Tapatalk


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## macanic21 (Feb 20, 2007)

Yeah, we will see what happens. With the way I tapped the bolt holes, I could have just used some grey RTV. It would have been a pain to hold it for the machining though. Have you welded cast aluminum?


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

I don't TIG but I've seen many people do it with very little issue....

-Apple
via Tapatalk


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