# 02M into Mk1-Outer Spline/Hub combinations?



## CrewCabCaddy (Feb 6, 2002)

I understand that the axle will have to be shortened any way I do this, but if reasonably possible, I am trying to keep the 02M axle ends matched together. Also trying to stay with 4x100 lugs. With this in mind...rather than cutting/splicing the outer portion of scirrocco 16V 100 mm axles onto the 02M axle...and fitting that to my 16V spindles/Hubs...
Does anyone know if there are any spindle/hub combinations that I can insert into the rabbit strut/A-arm/Ball joint assembly that would fit an outer 02M/VR6 axle shaft/spline?
Saw one post of a VR6 hub into a corrado spindle, but don't know if corrado spindle will fit into rabbit. Anyone know?
Also remember something a while back about T4 hubs matching the 02m splines? If so, would T4 hubs fit into scirroco 16v spindles?
If I can't find an answer I'll just weld up the 02M/16v combo axle.
_Modified by CrewCabCaddy at 10:57 PM 3-17-2008_

_Modified by CrewCabCaddy at 10:45 PM 3-24-2008_


_Modified by CrewCabCaddy at 11:22 PM 3-30-2008_


----------



## Blk95VR6 (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: 02M into Mk1-Outer Spline/Hub combinations? (CrewCabCaddy)*

I kept 4 lug outers when I went with my O2M swap into my MK III Cabrio and had the ends custom cut from Driveshaftshop; it may be that you can have the end grooves custom cut for the MK I outer joints but I'd call them to make sure. 

Mike


----------



## CrewCabCaddy (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: 02M into Mk1-Outer Spline/Hub combinations? (Blk95VR6)*

thanks Blk95VR6...could be an option.
Any other thoughts out there?


----------



## speeding-g60 (Aug 1, 2004)

*Re: 02M into Mk1-Outer Spline/Hub combinations? (CrewCabCaddy)*

get with Marco of A1CVTech 819-595-0400 tell him Aaron sent you his way http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
hell of a guy. can make you anything.... he is making the stuff for James (BigBoostedBunny) for the 02M/Haldex 4-motion swap he is doing in a MK1 rabbit VR6-T.....

they made my new axles as well...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3674563




_Modified by speeding-g60 at 10:11 PM 3-30-2008_


----------



## CrewCabCaddy (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: 02M into Mk1-Outer Spline/Hub combinations? (speeding-g60)*

Cool! I like the idea of tooling the Mk1 hubs to accept the O2M axle splines. I'll compare the outside diameters of the MK1 100mm and 02m axle splines/shafts. I suppose as long as the 02M splines are larger diameter, and there is enough metal inside the hub to retain strength after the re-tooling this would work quite well. Especially since I am not looking at whopping horsepower, just about 200 to 225 lb-ft of diesel torque on a 3000 lb. vehicle.
Thanks.
Anyone know specs for the T4 vanagon bearings/hubs/splines?


_Modified by CrewCabCaddy at 11:22 PM 3-30-2008_


----------



## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: 02M into Mk1-Outer Spline/Hub combinations? (CrewCabCaddy)*

I saw this thread early on, but was not quite sure how to respond as I don't have all of the info, but this might help out some. The 02m Splines are the same as the Vr and will slip into Vr hubs (say Corrado Vr or Mk3). Now, I know you want to run 4 lug (think you mentioned it above) so they could be redrilled easily as I am not sure if there was ever the Vr spline on 4 lug. Again, I am not sure.
What is the *inner* diameter of your 100mm Mk1 wheel bearings? It has been too many years since I had my old SII apart, but I seem to recall that the 100mm got larger bearings. I know the outer diameter is still smaller than the Mk2/Mk3 bearings, but not sure about the inner. As mentioned, the Mk2/3 4lug and 5 lug both use the same bearings so the hubs will interchange there. As you just eluded to, you might be able to machine a set of Vr hubs (or late large spline hubs) to fit into the Mk1 100mm CV bearing setup. I just don't know w/o measuring the ID of he early bearings and most sites only state the OD. I do have a set of Vr hubs, bearings etc sitting on my garage awaiting my 02m swap, so I could verify the measurements at this end. I think this would be your easiest route if there will still be enough meat left on the hubs.
The only other thing you would need to verify is that the 02M CV will clear the Mk1 ball joints and spindles.
I think the 02M joints are a better way to go than the wimpy early splines.
Shawn


----------



## MrDave (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: 02M into Mk1-Outer Spline/Hub combinations? (CrewCabCaddy)*

to quote from somewhere else:
"The older MkII/III/Corrado/Passat platform uses the smaller 25mm splined CV axles compared to the 28mm as found on 02M ones.....The rumor also goes that the early T4 (1991)models had a 108mm CV with a 25mm splined setup"
I've seen photos on Vortex here somewhere, it's a 108mm inner CV that will accept a mk1/mk2 axle spline, and you use your stock outer CVs, but you still have to shorten some axles.
edit: another post
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...62936
-Dave


_Modified by MrDave at 10:31 PM 3-29-2008_


----------



## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: 02M into Mk1-Outer Spline/Hub combinations? (MrDave)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MrDave* »_to quote from somewhere else:
"The older MkII/III/Corrado/Passat platform uses the smaller 25mm splined CV axles compared to the 28mm as found on 02M ones.....The rumor also goes that the early T4 (1991)models had a 108mm CV with a 25mm splined setup"

I am in the midst of an 02m swap into my Corrado. I have a set of Corrado Vr axles and hubs (because i am going to the plus suspension when I do my engine/trans swap) and the 02m "Beetle S" 02m CVs fit right into the Vr Corrado hubs.
S


----------



## CrewCabCaddy (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: 02M into Mk1-Outer Spline/Hub combinations? (sdezego)*

List clarified and added to 3/31/08
thanks Shawn and Dave:
I am not sure what 100 mm CV hub bearing inner diameter is. I'll try to research that.
Dave, I was trying to find that earlier T4 post and was remembering "T3" ...thanks for setting me straight.
FYI for those reading in the future...Mk1 (and early Mk2??) outer CV splines are 25 mm (outside diameter) 22 spline. 02M outer CV splines are 28 mm 33 spline. 
So, my current possible choices (with questions yet to be answered included) for fitting 02M outer CV splines into an MK1 are:
1. Machine 02M 28mm 33 spline CV ends to fit Mk1 hubs...but weakens 02M axle by reducing diameter of splines. And every time the CV needs changing, the spline would need to be re-machined...not a great option.
2. Machine the Mk1 HUBs to accept the 02M 108mm 33 spline outer CV. Similar machining has been completed but I need to verify the 108 mm CV will spin without hitting any protuberances on the back side of the Mk1 spindle/hub. This would result in an approximate 1.5 mm (radius) thinning of the Mk1 hub between the spline and bearing from approximately 4.5 to 3 mm possibly weakening the hub strength a bit, but bearing and spindle help strengthen the area. Likely a good and fairly simple option...ship hubs to shop with appropriate tools...pay the bill.
3. Machine the Mk1 SPINDLEs to accept the VR/beetle 02m wheel bearing and hub. Bearing hole in the Mk1 spindle would have to be bored out from 64 mm up to 72 mm outer diameter of Mk2/3 bearing, a change of 8 mm diameter (4 mm radius). I need to verify Mk1 spindle has enough space around the current bearing to allow 4 mm radius change, then also verify 02M hub and CV will spin freely on the Mk1 spindle without hitting anything. Have to re-drill 02m 5 lug hub to get 4x100 lugs. Likely a good option if all fits/works, and won't result in a potentially weakened spline to bearing area in the hub.
4. Machine 02M HUB "bearing contact" diameter from 40 mm down to 34 mm to fit into Mk1 spindle/wheel bearing, a change of 6 mm diameter (3 mm radius). Outer diameter of 02M hub bearing contact area is 40 mm and axle spline is 28 mm, then there is a 12 mm diameter (6 mm radius) difference and so about 6 mm of metal between the two. Removing 3 mm radius leaves only 3 mm metal remaining between the spline and bearing. Mk1 100 mm axle spline is 25 mm diameter and bearing contact diameter is 34 mm, so when stock there is roughly 4.5 mm of metal thickness between spline and bearing. So, net result of this approach is reducing 02M hub thickness between spline and bearing, to below that of the Mk1, But this is the same thickness as option 2 above.
5. Get 02M compatible hubs in corrado/Mk2 spindles and put these spindles into Mk1 strut/ball joint. After further research, this option is not possible without modifying Mk2 spindles at the strut mount, putting larger ball joints into the Mk1 A-arms, and possible requires use of A2 tie rod ends. 
6. Verify if any T4 Eurovan axle is 108 mm inner CV and indeed has or accepts an MK1 outer 100 mm CV. This would be the easiest option but axle would be weaker than 02m due to the smaller Mk1 spline.
In all cases axle shortening will be required!!
If anyone can answer any of these questions...please post up









_Modified by CrewCabCaddy at 10:41 PM 3-31-2008_


_Modified by CrewCabCaddy at 12:26 AM 4-1-2008_


----------



## speeding-g60 (Aug 1, 2004)

*Re: 02M into Mk1-Outer Spline/Hub combinations? (CrewCabCaddy)*

too many questions for me. here is my only help: 
this pic has 100mm 16v scirocco outer CV that i used in my MK1 Rabbit GTI factory hub/spindle. thats the one in black, the smaller one.
it also has the new, much larger CV from a Cadillac i believe, also uses the same spline pattern/size as Acura Integra. my OEM hubs were machined to accept this larger CV. its huge compared to stock. and it fits in the factory spindle as well.
if you want, i can go out and measure one of the splined sections, and give you a count. there is a tremendous size difference between the two you see, and these were made much cheaper and stronger than the DSS Stage 5 axles... i think the OEM MK1 hubs can be machined to accept the splined section you need.... by the right guys.
James, (BigBoostedBunny) had these guys make his 4-Motion VR6 MK1 GTI axles as well recently. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
EDIT: the bearing ID for the OEM hubs measure 34mm....
OEM splines are ~24mm.... my new ones are almost 28mm, 26 splines. FWIW.












_Modified by speeding-g60 at 4:53 AM 3-31-2008_


----------



## CrewCabCaddy (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: 02M into Mk1-Outer Spline/Hub combinations? (speeding-g60)*

Whoa...I was editing my post to cross post speedingG-60s earlier thread and what do ya know...here he is...








Did you get whole new axle shafts too or did the outer Cadillac/Acura CVs fit onto the Mk1 shafts?
So the machining of the hubs was just to match up the different face of the new CV...because the splines were the same as the originla Mk1.


----------



## speeding-g60 (Aug 1, 2004)

*Re: 02M into Mk1-Outer Spline/Hub combinations? (CrewCabCaddy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CrewCabCaddy* »_
So the machining of the hubs was just to match up the different face of the new CV...because the splines were the same as the originla Mk1.

nope, i edited my above post. the hubs were machined for the new sized splines, OD ~28+ mm with 26 splines. the OEM OD ~24+ mm splines.
and the OEM MK1 wheel bearing ID on mine are 34mm..... FWIW.
and yeah, they made whole new axles. Cadillac FWD shafts and outers, and they took the flanges from my 02A trans and welded the Mazda 626 Turbo CV body to it, and machined it back down to perfection. its a really strong, tripod type inner CV. now my inners are like a honda, they pop in, no more triple square pain in the ass axle bolts

















_Modified by speeding-g60 at 10:10 PM 3-30-2008_


----------



## CrewCabCaddy (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: 02M into Mk1-Outer Spline/Hub combinations? (speeding-g60)*

Thanks for the Bearing ID!
I am checking over on The Samba in a eurovan thread to see if i can get a good response on the T4 CV Joint issue.


----------



## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: 02M into Mk1-Outer Spline/Hub combinations? (CrewCabCaddy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CrewCabCaddy* »_thanks Shawn and Dave:
...
3. Machine the Mk1 SPINDLEs to accept the VR/beetle 02m wheel bearing and hub, but need to verify Mk1 spindle has enough space around the current bearing and verify inner diameter of Mk1 bearing to be sure the appropriate boring can be completed, then also verify larger hub and 108 mm CV will spin freely on the Mk1 spindle without hitting anything. May have to re-drill VR/beetle hub to get 4x100 lugs unless there are 4x100 hubs that also fit the 02M axles?
3. Still exploring this one....put 02M compatible hubs into corrado spindles and put corrado spindles into Mk1 strut/ball joint...
Questions related to #3: sdezego mentioned the Mk2/3 4-lug and 5-lug hubs both fith the corrado spindle. Is this just the later corrado spindle or both the early and later corrado? Does anyone know whether early or later corrado spindles will attach to the Rabbit strut/ball joint? 


I am just guessing here, but I would venture to say that the Corrado Spindles will not work due to the chassis generation difference (not even the 4cyl ones). ...just a guess.
To answer your question though: All Corrado Spindles use the same wheel bearings. The 4lug (i.e. 4cyl) Corrado got the non-plus suspension (1" narrower and likely the same width as the Mk1) and smaller spline. The Vr Corrado got the plus suspension and larger splined outer CV's (spline matches the 02m). The lower balljoint is completely different on the Vr/Plus suspension than the 4cyl Corrado non-plus (it's on an angle on the + suspensions).
Again, all Corrados (4 Cyl and Vr) *use the same wheel bearings* and both respective hubs (4cyl/4lug/22spline) and the (Vr/5lug/33 spline) hubs can be pressed into either spindles *(because they use the same bearings)*.
I may have caused some confusion talking about Corrados, but I was trying to illustrate the fact immediately above. I was thinking more of being able to machine down a Vr/02m/33 spline *hub* (i.e. the shoulder that presses into the bearing) so that you can use your existing spindles and bearings but allow you to use the larger spline (02m) CV.
Again, you would need to make sure the ID of your bearings are large enough to allow the hub's shoulder to be machined down. ..and would require re-drilling to 4lug.
Shawn


----------



## CrewCabCaddy (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: 02M into Mk1-Outer Spline/Hub combinations? (sdezego)*

thanks for clarification....the options grow








Added this to list above:
4. Machine 02M hub "bearing contact surface" diameter to fit into Mk1 spindle/wheel bearing. Need verification of whether 02M hub bearing can be machined to 34 mm, which is the inside diameter of a Mk1 wheel bearing, and still have enough material thickness to support the hub/axle. Mk1 100 mm axle spline is 25 mm diameter and bearing is 34 mm, so have roughly 4.5 mm of metal thickness between spline and bearing. 02m spline is 28 mm so, during this machining we would be losing 1.5 mm of the 4.5 mm resulting in 3mm mm hub thickness between the spline and bearing. Anyone know what the inside diameter is of the corrado wheel bearing so I can get a comparison of the spline to bearing metal thickness.


_Modified by CrewCabCaddy at 11:08 PM 4-1-2008_


----------



## CrewCabCaddy (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: 02M into Mk1-Outer Spline/Hub combinations? (sdezego)*

Shawn,
Can you measure the inside diameter of your VR6 wheell bearings?


----------



## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: 02M into Mk1-Outer Spline/Hub combinations? (CrewCabCaddy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CrewCabCaddy* »_Shawn,
Can you measure the inside diameter of your VR6 wheell bearings?


40mm ID
72mm OD


----------



## speeding-g60 (Aug 1, 2004)

*Re: 02M into Mk1-Outer Spline/Hub combinations? (sdezego)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sdezego* »_
40mm ID
72mm OD

and MK 1 
34mm ID
64mm OD
FWIW....


----------



## CrewCabCaddy (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: 02M into Mk1-Outer Spline/Hub combinations? (speeding-g60)*

Okay...I edited/updated/corrected the list of options above based on diameters of the two bearings. While doing this...it occurred to me...
What are the thicknesses of these two bearings? If different, then machining either the Mk1 spindle bearing housing diameter or the 02M hub diameter would have to account for the different bearing thickness. Probably not a problem, unless corrado bearing is too wide to fit side to side, in the Mk1 spindle.
I'll post up on the corrado thread to see if Corrado spindles will fit into Mk1.


----------



## CrewCabCaddy (Feb 6, 2002)

*Re: 02M into Mk1-Outer Spline/Hub combinations? (CrewCabCaddy)*

100 mm hub started in 1985 model year for all Mk1s and Mk2s. 
It appears all Mk2 spindles need to be machined to fit into a MK1 strut (easy to do) and they have a larger ball joint that came out in 1988.
According to this thread http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2502960 Mk2 spindles also have lower tie rod attachment points.

So simple answer to my original question is:
no Mk2/Corrado VR6 spindles will not bolt onto the Mk1 without modification.
Edits made to list above!

_Modified by CrewCabCaddy at 12:22 AM 4-1-2008_


_Modified by CrewCabCaddy at 11:07 PM 4-1-2008_


----------

