# My 20v head flow numbers



## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Hi there,

so I've been working on a B6 Audi for a couple of months now, ported a head and got the following numbers from an AEB:

Valve Lift in inches Flow in CFM
.100------------------------150.9
.150------------------------193.36
.200------------------------210.20
.250------------------------240.37
.300------------------------247.34
.350------------------------254.12
.400------------------------254.12

Exhaust aren't as great but but it keeps flowing with more lift

Valve Lift in inches Flow in CFM
0.050----------------------45.16
0.100----------------------80.36
0.150----------------------100.98
0.200----------------------118.05
0.250----------------------140.4
0.300----------------------164.90
0.350----------------------184.36
0.400----------------------201.96
0.450----------------------210.20




























This is hand ported, anyone have a flow chart of a ported AEB head to compare?
Thanks


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## forcefedjetta (Aug 14, 2003)

Cool i would like to see stock awp vs aeb


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

Paul,

Awesome numbers. That's about what my worked 16v flows on the intake side but you can see the signficantly better exhaust design. Your straight up killing me.... I think my head does 180cfm.


You ever get the 16v flowed? Curious on how your +1mm valves worked out for total flow???




E...


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Fast929 said:


> Paul,
> 
> Awesome numbers. That's about what my worked 16v flows on the intake side but you can see the signficantly better exhaust design. Your straight up killing me.... I think my head does 180cfm.
> 
> ...


Hehe, the 16v head will be next, but the size is 2mm bigger, not 1


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

This hand Ported by you or did you send this out?


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## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

Sweet...

All you need is an intake manifold to match those flows


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

screwball said:


> This hand Ported by you or did you send this out?


Ported it myself by hand, stock valve size


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Don R said:


> Sweet...
> 
> All you need is an intake manifold to match those flows


Arnold's making me one but you can send one too


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

Don R said:


> Sweet...
> 
> All you need is an intake manifold to match those flows




Wasn't the intake roughly 170's for flow?


Just asking.


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## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

Fast929 said:


> Wasn't the intake roughly 170's for flow?
> 
> 
> Just asking.


271
275
275
271


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## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

killa said:


> Arnold's making me one but you can send one too


LOL...Right on. It's in good hands


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Don R said:


> LOL...Right on. It's in good hands


But seriously though, i'll take anything for free 

Arnold's playing around with his CNC, can't wait to see what comes of this


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## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

killa said:


> But seriously though, i'll take anything for free
> 
> Arnold's playing around with his CNC, can't wait to see what comes of this


For free!...The SEM Longi's are a limited run 

This is what it looks like installed...


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

Don R said:


> 271
> 275
> 275
> 271


Ahhhh, 270's... My bad!

Seriously nice numbers there and should support significant HP!


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## velocity196 (Feb 19, 2006)

Who did your flow testing and how much does something like this cost? I've got a heavily ported AEB, it's laggy as hell! Prolly great for a track car but for a street car, no bueno!


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

[email protected] should have his flow bench back up, you should hit him up since he's closer to you.


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## velocity196 (Feb 19, 2006)

killa said:


> [email protected] should have his flow bench back up, you should hit him up since he's closer to you.


Thanks :thumbup:


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

killa said:


> Hi there,
> 
> so I've been working on a B6 Audi for a couple of months now, ported a head and got the following numbers from an AEB:
> 
> ...


Here some numbers from Bob Q from back in the day. http://www.qedpower.com/qedDataII.htm bob G.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

rracerguy717 said:


> Here some numbers from Bob Q from back in the day. http://www.qedpower.com/qedDataII.htm bob G.


If I'm seeing the marks along the X axis right my head seems to be outflowing Bob's by a good amount both on intake and exhaust at lower lift.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

I was going to say, I like that your head reaches peak flow at a lift which is usable with hydraulic lifter cams. :thumbup:


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## LightSwitch (May 9, 2008)

Don R said:


> For free!...The SEM Longi's are a limited run
> 
> This is what it looks like installed...


! i thought they weren't going to make these? thats the first one i've seen.


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

They were made, they did specifically ask that you don't find out though. It was in a thread a couple months back somewhere.


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## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

screwball said:


> They were made, they did specifically ask that you don't find out though. It was in a thread a couple months back somewhere.


LOL

Yes they were released...there's thread on Audizine about it.


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## Maui Stylez (Aug 26, 2011)

where is this thread Don?


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## Don R (Oct 4, 2002)

Maui Stylez said:


> where is this thread Don?


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...rottle-body-upgrade-program-***&highlight=INA

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...anifold-DBW-Throttle-Body-Upgrade-Program-***


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> I was going to say, I like that your head reaches peak flow at a lift which is usable with hydraulic lifter cams. :thumbup:


totally, plenty of flow at low lift, good for hydro cams.



















I want to try to do another with a bit different port design, I think 270-280 cfm is possible with a bit more work.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

:thumbup::heart:


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

Cool so when can I drop my head off Killa :laugh::laugh:


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

screwball said:


> Cool so when can I drop my head off Killa :laugh::laugh:


You might want to talk to Issam first because according to him no one can get these numbers without using a CNC machine and it'll be impossible to get 280cfm out of these heads even though I've seen it with my own eyes; i think he put it this way: "Bro, if BobQ, VW Racing and someone that I can't remember can't do it then you should quit your day job and do this :laugh:, obviously being sarcastic

But if you're the minority who actually has hands on experience and knows what to touch then thank you for the compliment 

This why I love coming here, the hatorade is always flowing


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## Maui Stylez (Aug 26, 2011)

killa said:


> You might want to talk to Issam first because according to him no one can get these numbers without using a CNC machine and it'll be impossible to get 280cfm out of these heads even though I've seen it with my own eyes; i think he put it this way: "Bro, if BobQ, VW Racing and someone that I can't remember can't do it then you should quit your day job and do this :laugh:, obviously being sarcastic
> 
> But if you're the minority who actually has hands on experience and knows what to touch then thank you for the compliment
> 
> This why I love coming here, the hatorade is always flowing


I LAUGHED HEARTILY!!!!!!!  :wave:


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

How much time have you spent on the valve job / throat area versus the rest of the port? That is a good place to invest some time on these heads. :thumbup:


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Killa, that is some damn fine port work. I started a small port head a while ago, and it ended up pretty much like you did on the one port I started.


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## zerb (Mar 18, 2005)

this is some good **** right here. :beer:


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

killa said:


> i think he put it this way: "Bro, if BobQ, VW Racing and someone that I can't remember can't do it then you should quit your day job and do this :laugh:, obviously being sarcastic


I was not being sarcastic Paul. 
If you can get an AEB head to flow 280cfm's then quit your day job and offer the service. I dealt with 3 of the 4 most renowned cylinder head porting shops in North America over the last 6 years before I got into CNC porting and the average was under 260 cfm's. One of these shops did half if not all the big 20V heads in tri state.

If you get your head to flow 280 cfm's and an indepdant shop flows it and achieves the same #'s I personally will send you (and letting this go on record so that I dont ensue public shame in the future :laugh will send you 10 AEB heads to do for me.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Issam Abed said:


> I was not being sarcastic Paul.
> If you can get an AEB head to flow 280cfm's then quit your day job and offer the service. *I dealt with 3 of the 4 most renowned cylinder head porting shops in North America over the last 6 years before I got into CNC porting and the average was under 260 cfm's.* One of these shops did half if not all the big 20V heads in tri state.
> 
> If you get your head to flow 280 cfm's and an indepdant shop flows it and achieves the same #'s I personally will send you (and letting this go on record so that I dont ensue public shame in the future :laugh will send you 10 AEB heads to do for me.


Issam, Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak. You weren't being sarcastic, you just don't know any better and that makes me laugh, see, If I agreed with you, we'd both be wrong.

Who are these people you use? I've made two quick phone calls and got mid 250cfm flow with the stock valve like i did and 280 with the same grinds that I have in mind, this is not a jab at you, you just don't know any better which is ok but please don't say that you use X,Y and Z "shop" because anyone reading this will laugh at you.

opcorn:


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Issam Abed said:


> If you get your head to flow 280 cfm's and an indepdant shop flows it and achieves the same #'s *I personally will send you (and letting this go on record so that I dont ensue public shame in the future :laugh will send you 10 AEB heads to do for me.*


Really? show me 10 AEB heads, send it to a mutual friend and i'll take them for me, bet?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

killa said:


> you just don't know any better and that makes me laugh, see, If I agreed with you, we'd both be wrong.


Paul,
And if I agreed with you and went "ooh aah 254 cfm's" we would both be wrong.To insinuate that I do not know any better because I stated you can not get 280 cfm's from a hand port is a bit insulting. Would you have preferred for me to be like the rest of forum members on here/Audizine and not question what you do?

I made it very clear. Port your head and flow it. If it flows 280 cfm's then go to an independent shop and get the head flowed. If it flows 280 cfm's at that shop as well then we are open for business. Until then I am going to state that 280 cfm's is not doable by hand. *There is no need to toss out past credentials or who does what because that is not the topic at hand*.

I have had the following cylinder heads done for me in the past:
Grahm @ Canadian Cylinder head - 5 stage Porting job on intake and exhaust - 243 cfm's on intake. Grahm did most of the 1.8T's for the community back in 2004 & 2005
Bob Q - the first to offer CNC heads in North America ~265 cfm's
Tom K @ TK Race - Hand ported (possibly the best hand port job I have ever seen) - we all know TK's work. - 260+ cfm's.

Do I think 280 cfm's is possible? Maybe with an ORECA 20V cast which has different port shape sure but as you can see from the above 280 cfm's is no small feat. That is not a knock at you by any means . I told you that for someone who does not do this as a full time job, your port work is excellent but to throw me under the bus and assume I have no experience "makes me laugh".

You know my work which trumps any hand port work any day of the week.









Not much more to discuss here. When you get the head flowing 280 cfm's ill send you (10) AEB heads.:thumbup:


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Issam Abed said:


> Paul,
> And if I agreed with you and went "ooh aah 254 cfm's" we would both be wrong.To insinuate that I do not know any better because I stated you can not get 280 cfm's from a hand port is a bit insulting. Would you have preferred for me to be like the rest of forum members on here/Audizine and not question what you do?
> 
> I made it very clear. Port your head and flow it. If it flows 280 cfm's then go to an independent shop and get the head flowed. If it flows 280 cfm's at that shop as well then we are open for business. Until then I am going to state that 280 cfm's is not doable by hand. *There is no need to toss out past credentials or who does what because that is not the topic at hand*.
> ...


Issam, my terms are easy, ship the 10 heads to someone we both know and trust here in the States and I'll get you 280cfm, not sure how else you want me to put it.
As for your CNC head, buddy, i can make a port look much better and shinier this only proves that you don't know how to get flow out of a head, this is not where you should be playing with :facepalm:

As for the people above, it really doesn't matter what numbers they have, all it matters if 10 heads show up I'll get you the flow.

Now go back to your parts bin and put another motor in an engine stand, I'll keep doing what i do best, do actual work :laugh:


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Issam Abed said:


> Paul,
> *I have had the following cylinder heads done for me in the past:*


Exactly, you HAD


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

killa said:


> I'll keep doing what i do best, do actual work :laugh:


any reason you retorting to petty insults today? Stop posting like you are from Jersey...

Get me that 280 cfm # and we will talk. :thumbup:


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

INA said:


> any reason you retorting to petty insults today? Stop posting like you are from Jersey...
> 
> Get me that 280 cfm # and we will talk. :thumbup:


Now you're talking :thumbup: but you do know that I can't drop everything I'm going to work on this right? it'll take a bit of time as I'm running around, be in Vegas this weekend if anyone's around there... :beer:


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Issam Abed said:


> *There is no need to toss out past credentials or who does what because that is not the topic at hand*.


I don't mean to be a dick but if you want to talk credentials then feel free to do so, we can compare them...... but trust me that it's not a fair fightopcorn:


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Paul,
You made a claim which you were asked to back up. 
Straying out of topic and resorting to petty insults is childish , unprofessional and above you Paul.
I respect your knowledge immensely when it comes to Turbocharger technology but I know what it takes to get an AEB head to flow (hence my skepticism) and I am probably the only person on this forum that has CMM'ed an Octavia WRC cylinder head or an Oreca head which are sitting in my "parts bin".I ported my own head back in 2008 and it only did 242 cfm's and that made 538whp on Snuff's A4 so I know what 280 cfm's is....

Even PITGUY's solid lifter head which I bought only flowed 248 cfm's (and that head was done by a well known tri state cylinder head shop).

My head vs Grahm's head 









Again , I have stated this twice online and privately , *I am in no way discrediting your work. I think 254 cfm's is amazing* but If you want to throw your weight around to enhance your online penis then by all means go right ahead.

I am only interested in seeing 280cfm's.Nothing more ....nothing less. 
280 cfm please?


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Issam Abed said:


> Paul,
> You made a claim which you were asked to back up.
> Straying out of topic and resorting to petty insults is childish , unprofessional and above you Paul.
> I respect your knowledge immensely when it comes to Turbocharger technology but I know what it takes to get an AEB head to flow (hence my skepticism) and I am probably the only person on this forum that has CMM'ed an Octavia WRC cylinder head or an Oreca head which are sitting in my "parts bin".I ported my own head back in 2008 and it only did 242 cfm's and that made 538whp on Snuff's A4 so I know what 280 cfm's is....
> ...


Bob ported Ricky's (Pitguy) head, you might have heard of Bob before and use his name, he's actually local to us and does a lot of local cars, he doesn't however own a flow bench. 
Stop in sometime though, he's on Harrison ave across the street from Spanish Pavillion, the man's got a temper though and ZERO tolerance for BS so watch out.

Come on man, if you really knew what it took to flow you would have built it yourself and not purchased Ricky's head who was done by someone who couldn't care any less about cylinderhead flow. And what do the solid lifters have anything to do with flow? Do explain..... Solid vs Flow

Also, your 583whp comment means nothing, a stock AEB had has put down over 1000whp, we're talking about a variable (hp) that is dependent on two others (tq and rpm), if you want to be correct at least talk torque, never hp.

Back on topic opcorn:


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

killa said:


> Come on man, if you really knew what it took to flow you would have built it yourself and not purchased Ricky's head


Paul,
Maybe the time line confused you but that was 4 years ago. Were you not the one that showed me the head?
Rick knew I was going to purchase a schrick solid lifter kit and gave me the head at a good price. It came with a bonus cylinder head cast which I flowed. I find it funny how the guy now does not care about cylinder head flow but when it was up for sale....you would swear it was ported by jesus himself.

Whatever the case I am pretty confident in my cylinder head work now and others are confident in it as well. This thread seems to be going in circles so I am going to go back into the shadows and return when I see a 280 cfm #.

Good luck bra:thumbup:


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Issam Abed said:


> Competition is a dirty thing. All of a sudden I cant do anything for myself but I can build you a motor that took you to 10.05?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You built him a motor and he's talking **** on you that you don't do work? This thread is strange


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Issam Abed said:


> Paul,
> Maybe the time line confused you but that was 4 years ago. Were you not the one that showed me the head?
> Rick knew I was going to purchase a schrick solid lifter kit and gave me the head at a good price. It came with a bonus cylinder head cast which I flowed. I find it funny how the guy now does not care about cylinder head flow but when it was up for sale....you would swear it was ported by jesus himself.
> 
> ...


If I showed you the solid lifter head then it I showed you the head, I'm sure I didn't tell you how much it flowed because I simply didn't know. You are the one that mentioned his flow. 
Glad you're working on your cylinderhead work, when I can I will build another head to shoot for 280cfm, not because of you but because I want to use it for myself, you have fun doing whatever you do though.

Back on topic, low lift and 254cfm, something I haven't seen before.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

good to see yu back on the forums paul.:beer:


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Vegeta Gti said:


> good to see yu back on the forums paul.:beer:


It's good to be back


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## Andaloons (Apr 16, 2004)

groggory said:


> You built him a motor and he's talking **** on you that you don't do work? This thread is strange


Yeah, that IS strange.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Andaloons said:


> Yeah, that IS strange.




It is a Jersey thing. Up there, you beat the crap out of each other, screw each others women, and then go for drinks and hold each others mullets while you puke drinking milwaukees best at the pine barrens listening to whitesnake sitting in the bed of a 1980 F150.

It's just how they roll.


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

gdoggmoney said:


> It is a Jersey thing. Up there, you beat the crap out of each other, screw each others women, and then go for drinks and hold each others mullets while you puke drinking milwaukees best at the pine barrens listening to whitesnake sitting in the bed of a 1980 F150.
> 
> It's just how they roll.


speaking from first hand experience ??? just joking aroundeace: ... dont need it to lead to a digital sucker punch match lol


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## Maui Stylez (Aug 26, 2011)

killa said:


> *Back on topic*, low lift and 254cfm, something I haven't seen before.


makes me wonder what my head flows, really. the small port i use now. maybe i will call Collin and see, they are only like 45 minutes away....


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

Maui Stylez said:


> makes me wonder what my head flows, really. the small port i use now. maybe i will call Collin and see, they are only like 45 minutes away....


small port FTW


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

kamahao112 said:


> speaking from first hand experience ??? just joking aroundeace: ... dont need it to lead to a digital sucker punch match lol


It's an east coast thing. Ship me back west please. At least Midwest.


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

Upppsss, we got a Mormon on here.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> How much time have you spent on the valve job / throat area versus the rest of the port? That is a good place to invest some time on these heads. :thumbup:


Sorry, missed this one, about half and half, it took a long time to take the extra material from the port in order to match the gasket, I'd say that there's a good 30 hours on this head as it sits :thumbup:


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## sabbySC (Dec 29, 2009)

Out of curiosity has anyone done 280 on one of these heads?


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## d-bot (Sep 6, 2004)

I like this magic number in the sky.


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## sabbySC (Dec 29, 2009)

d-bot said:


> I like this magic number in the sky.


Exactly, what I'm getting at is this becoming bench racing? Put up or shut up, such has always been the nature of the automotive world.

Either way I want to see you horse power mongers keep doing what you do :beer:


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

sabbySC said:


> Out of curiosity has anyone done 280 on one of these heads?


I have seen 283 with my own eyes and heard 285 out of an 100% reliable source. I just picked up another large port head and will work on the 280cfm, won't be easy and you can't do it with no CNC machine that can't touch what matters in the port due to the port's design and size, CNC works in Nascar where the head ports are huge and they can get a bit all the way in there but they still have someone go in there and finish it by hand.

I've confirmed this with some of the Nascar teams that i work with in my 9-5, tried to get info out of the McLaren and other F1 teams but that will never happen, got a better chance of sleeping with the pope's wife 

As for being BS and rumors, I assure you that i've been in this scene for a while now and never did I lie about anything, I might not be able to get you 280cfm but it has been done and I will try it, one thing's for sure, these 254cfm numbers have been done before and I will personally put a head together that flows more. :beer:


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## defrag010 (Jul 19, 2006)

Got a couple questions for you guys..

What bore are you all flowing your heads with? The original poster's sheet says 4.03" which will yield excessive numbers. Any bore fixture that is larger than stock bore makes the numbers useless.

Have any of you measured and found where the minimum CSA in these intake ports are?

Have any of you probed your port with a pitot tube? Are there any areas of the port (aside from the dividers) that go sonic?


Lastly.. is welding legal in the 280cfm competition? 

#2 is what I am the most concerned with, since I don't have a head in front of me to measure.. as that number will tell the true story of what the port is capable of flowing.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

defrag010 said:


> Got a couple questions for you guys..
> 
> What bore are you all flowing your heads with? The original poster's sheet says 4.03" which will yield excessive numbers. Any bore fixture that is larger than stock bore makes the numbers useless.
> 
> ...


*Bore*I don't own the flow bench so I cannot answer the bore questions but can tell you that an adapter is used so I wouldn't really go based on that number.

*Useless numbers* The numbers are what they are, I just posted what i was given. I also flowed my big valve 16v head and got [email protected]" lift, this was on a head that i didn't touch, then took it apart and played with the same thing that i played with on the 20v head and the numbers went up to [email protected] the same 0.450" lift, see below, Intake#1 = ported head with bigger valves as i got it, Intake #2 = ported head after i blended everything in.










same applies to the exhaust, these things are horrible with a 90* exit angle...









These heads are averaging anywhere between 220's to 240's so these numbers seem pretty accurate, but take it for what it's worth, Turbodubs on here used one of my heads in his 16v and the car went from chocking up around 7500 to pull hard to 8500.

That's all the info i have now and you can do whatever you want to get 280 but good luck doing it on the stock seats


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Paul, 

I have ampco 45 intake seats on the shelf.


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## MKIII_96 (Nov 25, 2006)

do you have the base numbers that you started with? you should make a DIY how to properly port a head lol


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> Paul,
> 
> I have ampco 45 intake seats on the shelf.


Well, if it's free it's for me :laugh:


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

MKIII_96 said:


> do you have the base numbers that you started with? you should make a DIY how to properly port a head lol


I didn't get the base numbers but the machine shop owner flowed his at 220 IIRC, that's pretty much what everyone's getting.

You can just read up on porting and figure it out yourself, just don't expect it to get it right from the start and keep in mind that you will spend countless hours around these things even after you already have some practice.

The guy that taught me went to the Mondello porting school
http://www.mondello.com/


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## tedgram (Jul 2, 2005)

CNC makes the job go faster. They all need hand finishing. I'll keep watch on this thread for the real #.


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Sweet! Some interesting tech, and a good ole fashion id=27 pissing match all rolled into one :heart:


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## defrag010 (Jul 19, 2006)

killa said:


> *Bore*I don't own the flow bench so I cannot answer the bore questions but can tell you that an adapter is used so I wouldn't really go based on that number.
> 
> *Useless numbers* The numbers are what they are, I just posted what i was given. I also flowed my big valve 16v head and got [email protected]" lift, this was on a head that i didn't touch, then took it apart and played with the same thing that i played with on the 20v head and the numbers went up to [email protected] the same 0.450" lift, see below, Intake#1 = ported head with bigger valves as i got it, Intake #2 = ported head after i blended everything in.
> 
> ...


I'm not calling BS or trying to instigate anything at all.. I just have a lot of time on a flowbench and I know how many variables there are and how they can affect the readings. I messed up once and got some insane numbers from a 4g63.. I was so stoked... until I did the math and realized that the numbers I got were showing ~125 cfm/in^2 past the valves (SAE declares that 146 cfm/in^2 is the theoretical maximum). Turns out I forgot to put the dang spark plug in. lol :banghead: Bore size has a moderate effect on flow numbers, which is why I asked about it. 

That is why I asked if anyone had measured and found the minimum CSA in the port (whether it is in the port itself, or the throat), because one can calculate the theoretical maximum that the port can flow (whether 280cfm is even possible or not) from that number and where it is located in the port. Since the theoretical maximum flow past a valve is 146 cfm/in^2, three stock 1.059" valves have a theoretical max of 391 cfm.. but ~110 cfm/in^2 is a realistic "maximum" number for multi valve heads so that works out to ~290cfm. That is at the valve only, not taking the port into consideration. 

I have 2 thoughts based on looking at pictures of these intake ports: try a 50-55 degree seat on the middle valve, and weld up the dividers to make them as long as possible. 

I really only butted in because the 280cfm call out kinda interested me.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

defrag010 said:


> I'm not calling BS or trying to instigate anything at all.. I just have a lot of time on a flowbench and I know how many variables there are and how they can affect the readings. I messed up once and got some insane numbers from a 4g63.. I was so stoked... until I did the math and realized that the numbers I got were showing ~125 cfm/in^2 past the valves (SAE declares that 146 cfm/in^2 is the theoretical maximum). Turns out I forgot to put the dang spark plug in. lol :banghead: Bore size has a moderate effect on flow numbers, which is why I asked about it.
> 
> That is why I asked if anyone had measured and found the minimum CSA in the port (whether it is in the port itself, or the throat), because one can calculate the theoretical maximum that the port can flow (whether 280cfm is even possible or not) from that number and where it is located in the port. Since the theoretical maximum flow past a valve is 146 cfm/in^2, three stock 1.059" valves have a theoretical max of 391 cfm.. but ~110 cfm/in^2 is a realistic "maximum" number for multi valve heads so that works out to ~290cfm. That is at the valve only, not taking the port into consideration.
> 
> ...


Let me put it this way, your feedback is appreciated, that's why I went back and looked then posted my 16v head results done on the same flow bench, they're actually low compared to other heads even when the other heads have stock valves, I then spent hours working on the SSR of both the intake and exhaust, noticed that the peak angle of the SSR not only was it very sharp but very close to the guide and a clear bottleneck, i blended that down as much as i could and picked up 15cfm on the intake. I think that the final result of 248cfm out of a head with +2mm valves on the intake and -1.5mm stem sounds very conservative considering that the best heads out there are flowing that with stock valves but the SSR blending and taking the material out most. def. made a difference.

On the exhaust side i just blended it in hard since you really can't do much with that thing, end result is going from 158 to 180, seems very credible considering the +0.5mm bigger valve and others are making that and up to 10more cfm on a stock valve.

*Dividers* Can't say i thought of welding material there, I looked at them and thought of just smoothing the semi rough casting but welding anything there never crossed my mind, sounds like a good idea but not one that i'll be doing for sure.

*Valve Job* I didn't touch the valve job, it was the machinest who cut his own with supertech valves.

Thanks for the input, I'm left to one spare AEB head left after cutting another large port down for some cylinder head gasket testing, hopefully someone comes through and I'll try some other small things :thumbup:


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## Harry Sax (Apr 21, 2011)

whatchu need Paul?

another AEB head to massage? i got a spare or more


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## xtremvw3 (Jun 10, 2011)

280cfm can be done Tom at TK got us 272cfm but when he got more flow where he needed to port the water jacket wall collapse, no materiel there, so imo you get 280cfm not sure how reliable it will be under extrme condition, im very happy with my 260+cfm head from him, reliable makes power and spools faster. im sure Killa heads will be good in real time also..


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## MKIII_96 (Nov 25, 2006)

xtremvw3 said:


> 280cfm can be done Tom at TK got us 272cfm but when he got more flow where he needed to port the water jacket wall collapse, no materiel there, so imo you get 280cfm not sure how reliable it will be under extrme condition, im very happy with my 260+cfm head from him, reliable makes power and spools faster. im sure Killa heads will be good in real time also..


aaron had posted some pics of a head he cut apart and you could see in the bowl area theres only about 5mm or so of material to take away. from what i read the bowl area is where most of the flow can be increased, my luck i would go right through that lol. id like to do some porting on my head without spending big $$ at a machine shop, im not made of money. maybe i could just get rid of the casting edges inside the port and blend it a little, should flow a little better. wish i had heads laying around to practice on.


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## MKIII_96 (Nov 25, 2006)




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## defrag010 (Jul 19, 2006)

killa said:


> Let me put it this way, your feedback is appreciated, that's why I went back and looked then posted my 16v head results done on the same flow bench, they're actually low compared to other heads even when the other heads have stock valves, I then spent hours working on the SSR of both the intake and exhaust, noticed that the peak angle of the SSR not only was it very sharp but very close to the guide and a clear bottleneck, i blended that down as much as i could and picked up 15cfm on the intake. I think that the final result of 248cfm out of a head with +2mm valves on the intake and -1.5mm stem sounds very conservative considering that the best heads out there are flowing that with stock valves but the SSR blending and taking the material out most. def. made a difference.
> 
> On the exhaust side i just blended it in hard since you really can't do much with that thing, end result is going from 158 to 180, seems very credible considering the +0.5mm bigger valve and others are making that and up to 10more cfm on a stock valve.
> 
> ...


Yeah, man.. your results are very credible! Especially since you know where to grind and what to change. :thumbup:

It would be interesting to see one of these ports mapped with a pitot tube to see the velocity distribution. Dividers not only create a restriction, but they also create pressure differences and reflections depending on the shape. The farther away this is from the valve means the air has more time to become laminar before it reaches the valve. What is fun about dividers - you can shape them (think airplane wing) to manipulate the velocity/pressure at different parts of the port to even them out.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

defrag010 said:


> Yeah, man.. your results are very credible! Especially since you know where to grind and what to change. :thumbup:
> 
> It would be interesting to see one of these ports mapped with a pitot tube to see the velocity distribution. Dividers not only create a restriction, but they also create pressure differences and reflections depending on the shape. The farther away this is from the valve means the air has more time to become laminar before it reaches the valve. What is fun about dividers - you can shape them (think airplane wing) to manipulate the velocity/pressure at different parts of the port to even them out.


I see a lot of people knife edging the dividers but I don't do that, you say "think airplane wing", I say "think airplane nose" or "what's more aerodynamic than a rain drop?"

Only thing i consider knife edging is in the exhaust, I think we both think the same way here.

Now I'm thinking that i can get 260+ out of my 16v intake but the exhaust flows horribly, I'm gonna leave it like that:thumbup:


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Harry Sax said:


> whatchu need Paul?
> 
> another AEB head to massage? i got a spare or more


stop trying to gimme work man  let's talk after i put together the audi.


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## mescaline (Jul 15, 2005)

air plane nose? rain drop?

Are you porting that head commercial airplane style or supersonic? 










lol raindrop is the way it has to be...if it could choose it would probably one sharp...amount of water.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

mescaline said:


> air plane nose? rain drop?
> 
> Are you porting that head commercial airplane style or supersonic?
> 
> ...


Didn't take long for the thread to get stupid, congrats :beer:


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## mescaline (Jul 15, 2005)

What..ever


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## 04VDubGLI (May 20, 2005)

I have some flowbench numbers of a "stock" AEB as well as my personal AEB head (pretty well worked exhaust, mild intake). I don't have them on me at the moment though - so I'm sub'ing for tonight. (the shop where the flowing occurred - http://www.pandrengine.com/Cylinder_Heads.html)

However, I have a few questions:

1) A lot of people flow them @ 28", is that what your head was flowed at?
2) Do you have any means of finding out what bore dimensions were used? I know I'm not the first to ask this question, but I have seen as much as probably a 10% deviation with an incorrectly large bore. 4.030" vs 3.190" is pretty substantial. IIRC a Superflow 600 has a 4" opening - no adapter plate adds up.
3) Did you do any work in the CC? Any unshrouding of valves?
4) Did you remove any seat material? I've noticed a lot of variation in the placement of seats and thicknesses of available seat face (relative to what could be removed).

I'm just trying to get an idea so whatever numbers I have can have some amount of relevancy for comparison sake. The "stock" AEB numbers I have and my personal head (as well as another ported AEB) all come from the same Superflow, same adapter plate, etc... The one thing I recall from looking at Bob's numbers compared to mine before is he had way more flow down low than I do - which was disappointing given the cam profile I have. I suspect the same out of your setup.

I roughly estimated these to be Bob's numbers based upon the graph he had posted for his fully-worked AEB:

INT
.050" = 95 CFM
.100 = 135 CFM
.150 = 170 CFM
.200 = 196 CFM
.250 = 223 CFM
.300 = 237 CFM
.350 = 255 CFM
.400 = 262 CFM
.450 = 270 CFM
EXT
.050" = 80 CFM
.100 = 112 CFM
.150 = 130 CFM
.200 = 157 CFM
.250 = 172 CFM
.300 = 187 CFM
.350 = 202 CFM
.400 = 212 CFM
.450 = 220 CFM


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## i2ickei242 (May 31, 2004)

As much as I enjoy reading VERY WELL RESPECTED users bicker back and forth like little kids about whos better, I could only manage half way thru the second page....

ANYWAY, my AEB head was "supposably" fully ported and polished by TMTuning way back in 2004ish. I figure since I'm pulling the engine to refresh the bay this winter, I wouldn't mind paying to see what my head flows. MY QUESTION: Where does one go to get a head bench flow tested and how much should it cost?


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## 04VDubGLI (May 20, 2005)

i2ickei242 said:


> As much as I enjoy reading VERY WELL RESPECTED users bicker back and forth like little kids about whos better, I could only manage half way thru the second page....
> 
> ANYWAY, my AEB head was "supposably" fully ported and polished by TMTuning way back in 2004ish. I figure since I'm pulling the engine to refresh the bay this winter, I wouldn't mind paying to see what my head flows. MY QUESTION: Where does one go to get a head bench flow tested and how much should it cost?


The place I linked to above would flow it for you. I'm not sure of the cost though. Where in Ohio are you located?


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## i2ickei242 (May 31, 2004)

I am in NE Ohio, PA is literally my backyard. Pitts is only about 35-40 mins away.

*EDIT* That place come up about 1hr 45mins away. IF its cheap $50-$60 then the trip might be worth it but I'm sure there is a place closer.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

i2ickei242 said:


> As much as I enjoy reading VERY WELL RESPECTED users bicker back and forth like little kids about whos better, I could only manage half way thru the second page....
> 
> ANYWAY, my AEB head was "supposably" fully ported and polished by TMTuning way back in 2004ish. I figure since I'm pulling the engine to refresh the bay this winter, I wouldn't mind paying to see what my head flows. MY QUESTION: Where does one go to get a head bench flow tested and how much should it cost?



Me and Issam were going at the start of the thread but NEVER DID I SAY THAT I WAS BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE, I simply posted some numbers that I got and said "take it for what it's worth" The thread went back to being technical or at least having some good arguments.
Your intake shape looks really good :thumbup:


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

04VDubGLI said:


> 1) A lot of people flow them @ 28", is that what your head was flowed at?
> 2) Do you have any means of finding out what bore dimensions were used? I know I'm not the first to ask this question, but I have seen as much as probably a 10% deviation with an incorrectly large bore. 4.030" vs 3.190" is pretty substantial. IIRC a Superflow 600 has a 4" opening - no adapter plate adds up.
> 3) Did you do any work in the CC? Any unshrouding of valves?
> 4) Did you remove any seat material? I've noticed a lot of variation in the placement of seats and thicknesses of available seat face (relative to what could be removed).


28" of water and I'll find out about the bore next week for you guys. :thumbup:

I'm not getting into the anything else since simply because I had to grind and study the port for a while and no one that ports heads shared anything with me, I do have to say that whatever areas that should be touched were already mentioned here :thumbup:


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Just spoke with the machinest, the 4" bore was there from a previous setup, it has nothing to do with my flow result as I suspected.

The base numbers are just in line with the other heads previously flown, the 16v head that I had and re-did shows it as well.

Thanks for the input and I learned quite a bit on how to get flow, I'm confident that getting more flow both from the intake and exhaust is possible, I'll be more than glad to post another chart once i get time to work on another head.

As for now back to putting cars together :thumbup:


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## 04VDubGLI (May 20, 2005)

Here are my numbers - they were flowed at 25", not 28". I've read that you can add 6% to roughly achieve 28" numbers - not sure how accurately that works out. These were flowed through an 81mm hole as well. The setup is from here (http://www.pandrengine.com/Cylinder_Heads.html)










Lift: Int: Exh
.050 30 37
.100 68 75
.150 131 101
.200 163 123
.250 181 142
.300 196 159
.350 205 172
.400 208 181
.450 212 187

At some point I'm going to take the head back and flow it at 28" to get a more standardized reading. FWIW, I have a set of Cat cams and my "usable" lift is


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## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

Knife edging the intake ports will separate the air causing turbulent currents just after the point of incidence decreasing the effective flow area. Knife edging the exhaust side is ideal :thumbup:


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## 04VDubGLI (May 20, 2005)

Don® said:


> Knife edging the intake ports will separate the air causing turbulent currents just after the point of incidence decreasing the effective flow area. Knife edging the exhaust side is ideal :thumbup:


I had read a TON about exactly this. There was something I was reading where they had put a pilot tube in a port and had measured a bunch of turbulence at a knife-edged intake port. They actually noted no positive airflow to even reversion IIRC. Basically the knife-edge had caused a low-pressure point just past it's edge that caused almost something hurricane looking in fashion against the wall. Whereas a nice radiused edge caused airflow to "stick" to the wall and continue flowing forward. I do wonder how that plays out in these 20v heads because of the 3 intake valves and lack of material to work with. 

On the exhaust side - I'm actually not sure I agree with a knife edged wall there either. You don't want airflow to "wrap" around a radiused wall, but at the same time I don't know that a pure knife-edge wouldn't cause a lot of turbulence (and not in the forward direction) when the valve's air meets upon exit. A lot of material removal to knife-edge would give you airflow that flows like this /\ as opposed to (). I don't know - my theory. If you have specifics I'm all ears as I love learning this stuff!


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

04VDubGLI said:


> I had read a TON about exactly this. There was something I was reading where they had put a pilot tube in a port and had measured a bunch of turbulence at a knife-edged intake port. They actually noted no positive airflow to even reversion IIRC. Basically the knife-edge had caused a low-pressure point just past it's edge that caused almost something hurricane looking in fashion against the wall. Whereas a nice radiused edge caused airflow to "stick" to the wall and continue flowing forward. I do wonder how that plays out in these 20v heads because of the 3 intake valves and lack of material to work with.
> 
> On the exhaust side - I'm actually not sure I agree with a knife edged wall there either. You don't want airflow to "wrap" around a radiused wall, but at the same time I don't know that a pure knife-edge wouldn't cause a lot of turbulence (and not in the forward direction) when the valve's air meets upon exit. A lot of material removal to knife-edge would give you airflow that flows like this /\ as opposed to (). I don't know - my theory. If you have specifics I'm all ears as I love learning this stuff!



You can't do much on the intake, think airplane nose.

Don't think of a fighter jet though. Knife Edging the exhaust serves for two things.

Man, I don't want to spend more time doing these things but I've learned a couple of more things......


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## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

If anyone is feeling adventurous, you can build up the areas with weld where the ports separate to re-shape the edges. As killa said you can only do so much with the stock casting.

I've worked on reconfiguring port profiles and splitters before using digitized data for other platforms. It would be nice to get something like this for our heads


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Don® said:


> If anyone is feeling adventurous, you can build up the areas with weld where the ports separate to re-shape the edges. As killa said you can only do so much with the stock casting.
> 
> I've worked on reconfiguring port profiles and splitters before using digitized data for other platforms. It would be nice to get something like this for our heads


Good stuff Don, What ports are those? 16v setup with good degreed intake and exhaust...


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

killa said:


> Good stuff Don, What ports are those? 16v setup with good degreed intake and exhaust...


Looking like fsi/tsi head. My next long term project


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## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

Sorry guys, that's data taken for a EVO 9 head. I only used it for an example.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

Don® said:


> Sorry guys, that's data taken for a EVO 9 head. I only used it for an example.


Real head. Damn.....


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Don® said:


> Sorry guys, that's data taken for a EVO 9 head. I only used it for an example.


Good head, however the best 4cyl head i've seen (numbers wise) is the 1st gen DSM's 4G63T, 300+ on the intake and 250 on the exhaust ported.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

What if you were to fill in the stock castings with this...

http://www.alvinproducts.com/Products/Products.asp?id=2

Then develop a cnc program to carve them out just the way you want them?


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

killa said:


> Good head, however the best 4cyl head i've seen (numbers wise) is the 1st gen DSM's 4G63T, 300+ on the intake and 250 on the exhaust ported.


K series too...


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> K series too...


k series is no joke there is a local cat here k20 eg hatch 35r and he does 615 wheel on a completely stock motor 

not to mention stock ls7 heads flow pretty awesome for having a single intake and exhaust valve :laugh:


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

kamahao112 said:


> k series is no joke there is a local cat here k20 eg hatch 35r and he does 615 wheel on a completely stock motor


Holy Farckas! Link?


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

dubinsincuwereindiapers said:


> Holy Farckas! Link?


sorry meant to say ek not eg but any way the guys name is Jr. and he stays pretty under ground and i cant find and vids of his car but i have seen it in person and talked to him on a few occasions and the car is pretty animo lol burn outs till 140 lol


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## bluebomb3r (May 8, 2010)




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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

^^^ thats the one :thumbup:


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> K series too...


Not from this flow bench, k-series i saw was flowing [email protected] same 28" IIRC, I've seen a very famous Honda head porter get high 340's from a K-series but at 0.600" lift and [email protected]"


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

kamahao112 said:


> k series is no joke there is a local cat here k20 eg hatch 35r and he does 615 wheel on a completely stock motor
> 
> not to mention stock ls7 heads flow pretty awesome for having a single intake and exhaust valve :laugh:


I've joked with Paul on this...

I pop my motor in the rabbit and I swear I'm going built k20 swap...... Tranny and all.... :thumbup:


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## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

Fast929 said:


> I've joked with Paul on this...
> 
> I pop my motor in the rabbit and I swear I'm going built k20 swap...... Tranny and all.... :thumbup:


DO IT !!
http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=83825


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## defrag010 (Jul 19, 2006)

Don® said:


> Knife edging the intake ports will separate the air causing turbulent currents just after the point of incidence decreasing the effective flow area. Knife edging the exhaust side is ideal :thumbup:


I semi-disagree with this because dividers are not universal and it depends on the port. One can only come to a conclusion like this after mapping the velocity distribution of a port with a pitot tube. When I mentioned airplane wing earlier, it was in reference to high/low pressures and the manipulation of such pressures by giving the divider a biased airfoil. Another factor to take into consideration when planning dividers is the change in CSA at the divider.. a thick bluntly shaped divider creates a sudden change in cross section whereas a thin or knife edge will make the transition more gradual. Like I said, though, all of this is 100% dependent on the velocity distribution of the port.


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## MKIII_96 (Nov 25, 2006)

killa what size/type of bits or tools are you using to do this?


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

MKIII_96 said:


> killa what size/type of bits or tools are you using to do this?


Loaned carbides, sandpaper roll, sandpaper cartridge, cross buffs


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