# best intake and diverter for my 1.8



## falco4758 (Nov 23, 2011)

just got bakc into vws, ( had an qudi for a little), picked up a 03 stock 1.8, really clean, ive had my share of fast 1.8s but just want a reliable daily driver, i just want a intake, and blowoff valve* i just lvoe the sound), whats the best two for my mk4? thanks anyone


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

I don't understand your question exactly....

You want just a nice reliable 1.8t....but you want to put an intake on it and stuff....

Are you looking for performance or are you looking for a pssffftttt sound?

What are your goals here?


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

if you just want sound get just an intake. cold air or short ram will both give you the sound you want. you dont need to change the stock DV fo sound purposes, but if you insist on buying a new DV get a Forge 008 :thumbup: they are have a sick sale right now too


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Big_Tom said:


> if you just want sound get just an intake. cold air or short ram will both give you the sound you want. you dont need to change the stock DV fo sound purposes, but if you insist on buying a new DV get a Forge 008 :thumbup: they are have a sick sale right now too


No no, he wants a loud pffftp


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

I swore by the Bosch 710Ns - not sure what revision they're on now.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

groggory said:


> No no, he wants a loud pffftp


sounds like a winner for HKS then


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

screwball said:


> I swore by the Bosch 710Ns - not sure what revision they're on now.


Really, why? These things do a better job at being a boost leak at WOT than anything else.


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

Fastest reacting valve I've ever run and I never had any problems with boost leaks.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

The_RoadWarrior said:


> Really, why? These things do a better job at being a boost leak at WOT than anything else.


The 710n's don't go pffftff


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

screwball said:


> Fastest reacting valve I've ever run and I never had any problems with boost leaks.


I've tested to leak boost at only 5 psi of pressure and I'm sure you run more boost than that  !
And you will think they are fast until you try something really fast ( think less than 1 psi to recover full boost after bypass )


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

The_RoadWarrior said:


> I've tested to leak boost at only 5 psi of pressure and I'm sure you run more boost than that  !
> And you will think they are fast until you try something really fast ( think less than 1 psi to recover full boost after bypass )


What do you know of that works that well?


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

For intake, look into the velocity stack intake in my FAQ


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

groggory said:


> What do you know of that works that well?


More details
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...er-Valves&highlight=Let's+talk+diverter+valve

Listed there (Click on Madmax DV)
http://www.mcpii.com/products.html


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Cool. Added both links to my FAQ


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

groggory said:


> The 710n's don't go pffftff


mine did. it sounded awesome with just a cold air intake


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

http://www.s4biturbo.com/art-dvtests.php

Really cool read on the speed differences of different diverter valves.

Not a perfect test...but still neat


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

according to madmax's thread my valve performs well in the tests :thumbup:


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

groggory said:


> http://www.s4biturbo.com/art-dvtests.php
> 
> Really cool read on the speed differences of different diverter valves.
> 
> Not a perfect test...but still neat


Cool test and good find :thumbup:

Although the test only focus is on vacuum operation and travel, it is valuable data. Some stuff could be argued (the various Bosh units are not identical at all) but that is besides the point.

*Spring rates are different as well as diaphragm material and brass diaphragm plate design*
Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

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Since we are on the subject 710N tested at 5 and 10 psi (yes it leaks at only 5 psi and is basically a bleed valve at 10 psi and useless at pressure higher than that)

*5 psi regulated pressure*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVcqp14Jp0s&feature=g-upl&context=G2d23b95AUAAAAAAAHAA

*10 psi regulated pressure but the gauge is struggling to keep up because the leak is so big*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBohq8wTO-M&feature=g-upl&context=G231cdc3AUAAAAAAAIAA

I have more interesting videos of aftermarket valves performing poorly but I don't want to step on anybody's toes, especially the big names that pay to get this forum going (that got me banned already so I won't go there).


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

Big_Tom said:


> according to madmax's thread my valve performs well in the tests :thumbup:


I guess it did OK  ! I got so used to fast recovery (1 psi or less) anything else seem like an eternity to me  .


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## GolfCL Smooth (Jul 9, 2006)

Good to see some legitimate data on DVs, nice posts in here :thumbup:


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## MÄDDNESSS (Oct 18, 2010)

GolfCL Smooth said:


> Good to see some legitimate data on DVs, nice posts in here :thumbup:


X2
OP, ifyou looking for the PPFFT! sound then you might want to look into the Forge Splitter Valve.
40% blows off and the other 60% recirculates.
im not positive on those numbers, but its something like that.
i've had the Forge Splitter Valve on my 03 GTI, 1.8T for over 70K, no probelms with it.
and its got the nice sound to it. the CAI adds to it.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

roadwarrior...one question about those tests.

For a given test...say the 10 PSI test... why isn't there a hose running from the regulated pressure source to the nipple on top of the DV? If that valve was mounted on an actual car the top of the diverter valve would be seeing the same conditions as the intake manifold...in this case 10PSI.


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## bigdreamssmallwallet (Jan 22, 2009)

good point


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

groggory said:


> roadwarrior...one question about those tests.
> 
> For a given test...say the 10 PSI test... why isn't there a hose running from the regulated pressure source to the nipple on top of the DV? If that valve was mounted on an actual car the top of the diverter valve would be seeing the same conditions as the intake manifold...in this case 10PSI.


Very good observation, I was trained to always test for a single variable if I were to have any kind of valid scientific result. In that case I was testing for the internal spring cracking pressure for various valves. I also test for vacuum operation separately but of course do another separate test where both chambers are pressurized. 

If you look at my tester pictures below, you will notice a plugged vacuum hose. That is the hose that gets hooked to the valve's vacuum nipple and pressurize the top chamber. I will upload some tests done that way on the same valve and post them on Monday when I get to my home computer.




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Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/QUOTE]


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

I like your testing methodology.  Yep, plenty of science under my belt too...1 variable at a time is the name of the game.

Here's a few test ideas of mine (and likely yours too)

1) Nipple unplugged. Put a large balloon on the valve outlet. Apply regulated pressure to inlet. Time how long it takes for the balloon to reach a certain size (assuming it's leaking at all). Size can be measured by it reaching a given linear height.
This test will show how effectively each dv holds purely by it's spring pressure.

2) Nipple hooked to large vac res. Hook input up to a regulated pressure source. Use the same balloon as before. For each regulated pressure expose it to various levels of vac. See how long it takes each level of vac to leak the balloon to a given size.
This shows how much vac needs to be pulled in order to open the diverter valve to varying degrees. ...I don't like this methodology so much...but I don't know a better way off the top of my head.

3) ...my favorite cause it seems most real world. Nipple+input hooked to regulated pressure. Increase pressure until boost starts leaking. Use the balloon to gauge how much it's leaking.

New variable for another round of testing....Do all these tests again at various temperatures. Do the tests in the oven. Vary the temps from room temp all the way up to say 375F...which I'd say it a max under hood temperature (just guessing).

New variable. Somehow mimic compressor surge and see if the DVs react to it or not


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

If you're willing to do a comprehensive test I for one would be willing to throw some money your way to help out. Dunno about other people around here.

I'd like to see the ups and downs of all the DV's that are available.


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

groggory said:


> I like your testing methodology.  Yep, plenty of science under my belt too...1 variable at a time is the name of the game.
> 
> Here's a few test ideas of mine (and likely yours too)
> 
> ...


At least somebody else understands what's going on:

The test I posted of the Bosh 710N at various regulated pressure is basically your idea of test #1 minus the balloon (great idea btw). I didn't care to measure how much a valve leaked, as long as it was leaking before 25 regulated psi it was no good to me.

Your idea of test #2 is intriguing to me, in real life once there is vacuum the diaphragm/piston is retracted and bypassing pressure. IMO this would only demonstrate volume being bypassed at X amount of vacuum and would need some more accurate tooling to be of any help.

Your idea of test #3, we are on the same page again. That's the one I will post of the same Bosh valve at your requested 10 psi. IIRC, the test was a big disappointment on two separate 710N valves ( used a second valve as a control test). With the top chamber also pressurized, they leak more than having only the bottom chamber under pressure. My theory is that the diaphragm on these valves do a better job at sealing pressure in one direction (pressure under the plate). I think Audi VW realized the issue and started requesting the valves to be reversed ( cheap way to avoid having to recall so many valves). The pronounced leak that happens when both chambers are pressurized is associated with the infamous honking noise on older broken-in valves ( the honk is air escaping in between the diaphragm and the plastic shell).

It would be nice to be able to test a various temperature as you pointed out to see the variance. I do all my test in my garage at room temp. Maybe I'll try testing in an oven preheated to a set temp, but it would be missing having the air heated also, so I don't know how valuable the data would be.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

The_RoadWarrior said:


> At least somebody else understands what's going on:
> 
> The test I posted of the Bosh 710N at various regulated pressure is basically your idea of test #1 minus the balloon (great idea btw). I didn't care to measure how much a valve leaked, as long as it was leaking before 25 regulated psi it was no good to me.
> 
> ...


I think my thoughts on #2 is that IMO...if I am in boost and then I let off the gas I want my boost pressure to blow off ASAP! This means I want my diverter valve to open fully. Personally, I have a Forge 007 and back when I had my N249 hooked up it used to 'squeak' between shifts. This makes me think the plunger was opening partially instead of fully...so that little opening was being used as a whistle. Not good for the turbo...I want ALL the pressure gone ASAP. I want the plunger to be open FULLY as soon as the nipple shows it ANY vacuum. lol, maybe my standards are too hight.

Your findings about the bosch units leaking MORE when the nipple is exposed to pressure is a bad thing for many many people here. We recommend people remove their N249 valves all the time. As such, they are doing exactly what makes the Bosch units leak.

...looking forward to seeing all of your results. If you do a good job here you will have made a major contribution to this forum. Wish I could give out a hat to every user who goes above and beyond. ...hmm...there should be a side fund for that, lol.


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

I ran a synchronic valve for a full year and had nothing but trouble with it. I'd adjusted and rearranged the vac/pressure ports various times per the ST team to no avail. At best it would always flutter on me.


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## burkechrs1 (Dec 1, 2008)

I ran revo stg 2 for 3 years. I used the stock dv, it leaked. The 710N it worked well and sounded ok for a year, then leaked. I used the forge 004, it was ver loud but fluttered(that can be fixed via shims but it was to loud for me), I then used a forge 007 from a friend and finallyy switced to an apr r1.

Apr R1 is the best out of those as far as sound, and reliability in my opinion.

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

groggory said:


> If you're willing to do a comprehensive test I for one would be willing to throw some money your way to help out. Dunno about other people around here.
> 
> I'd like to see the ups and downs of all the DV's that are available.


Although I have quite a few valves tested and have the testing capability to try some more rather easily, I want to keep the testing to the OEM units or companies like Sychronic that actually promote independent testing and learn from it. 

I learned my lesson after stepping on some big toes and getting the poo end of the stick from VMG. I try not to go too deep and point out inherent flaws when some big fishes are involved :beer:.


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## bwdidwhat (Jul 19, 2011)

grog and RoadWarrior, you guys are now the official VW mythbusters. 

Someone needs to change the title of this thread. Quality info in here, and I wouldn't have guessed it from the first post.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

bwdidwhat said:


> grog and RoadWarrior, you guys are now the official VW mythbusters.
> 
> Someone needs to change the title of this thread. Quality info in here, and I wouldn't have guessed it from the first post.


Thanks. I am now a mod so I have certain rules that I have to follow but here is my take on this.

If this is a fair comparison from a purely neutral standpoint and does not pass judgement on any forum sponsor's good...but only shows raw data taken from that forum sponsor...then that is ok.

At no time can this discussion become slanderous or derrogatory towards any of the forum sponsors. I am 100% in favor of full disclosure of data...but you gotta keep it clean and fair.

With that said, let the myth busting begin and let's understand what DV is best for what applications!


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

opcorn:


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## Andaloons (Apr 16, 2004)

Subscribed. :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

If you guys are looking for seal integrity at WOT (_is this thing leaking charged air back into the intake?_), you want to tee off your pressure source so it also goes in the vacuum port at the top of the valve. Equalize pressure up to a good 2bar and see if the seal is holding. Remember that while the DV itself has equal pressure in its chambers, there's still a big differential between the inlet and the recirc outlet.

If you want to test how quickly (roughly/aggressively) the DV will transition from recirc to boost, test the piston's resistance to pressure when there's no equalizing pressure going to the vacuum port. This latter test is more of an indication of the road manners you'd experience. The car's designers wanted smooth power delivery, so they installed a diverter valve with a mild spring -- and they installed an N249 to further modulate it.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Added this discussion to the FAQ. Once there are some results from testing I'll add those too along with some logical conclusions.


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

Bosh 710N at 10 psi with both chambers pressurized:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75x5ENAJ59g&feature=g-upl&context=G28bf20eAUAAAAAAAAAA

As I said I recalled, the valve bleeds more boost when both chambers are pressurized. How much more I'm not sure but the groggory baloon idea will help with that, when I have some spare time to play with this. IMO these valves would be better off ran as *"pop off"* valves (no vacuum/manifold signal, just pressure opening the valve when the spring rate is exceeded) or *"pull style"* oriented (no pressure activation, only relying on vacuum to operate).


For those who asked privately about push vs pull orientation:

*Push orientation (recommended as long as you have a respectable valve)*
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*Pull orientation ( not recommended unless the valve is designed to operate both ways, it's a race car running lots of boost and can't afford to bleed any, or the valve is too weak like the tested Bosh and need reversal to hold any kind of performance)* 

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## babarber (Nov 3, 2008)

i dont understand the physics that allow the valve to open more while pressure is equalized. shouldnt positive pressure from the manifold help to keep it closed rather then force it open?
on a side note. i never realized how much these DVs leak while under pressure. i always assumed they remained sealed until signaled to open. that just pushed a DV way up the priority on my upgrade list.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Wow, that is really surprising.

I assume VW knows about this... and as such, I would think that while under boost they would close the nipple's access to the intake manifold so that the super leak doesn't happen.

Thumbs up to Road Warrior! Good testing.

I'd like to see a whole bunch of the popular DV's put under a set of tests that has concrete data to compare them to each other.


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

groggory said:


> Wow, that is really surprising.
> 
> I assume VW knows about this... and as such, I would think that while under boost they would close the nipple's access to the intake manifold so that the super leak doesn't happen.
> 
> ...


I know for a fact that Audi knows about it, their solution was to issue a TSB that required to flip or reverse the valves at service because of "noise". We both know that reversal of this conventionally designed dv makes it a pull only valve (only operates at vacuum) but that saved them from having to recall them.


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## babarber (Nov 3, 2008)

i would like to see the madmax dv and the r1 dv tested.
it would also be beneficial to test the dvs with a vacuum on the release side to simulate the vacuum created at WOT


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## Andaloons (Apr 16, 2004)

Since we are testing DVs with metal pistons why not test out a couple of wastegates oriented the same direction? Why hasn't anyone tried to use a wastegate as a BOV or DV? They function with essentially the same mechanics. This might be a dumb question, but the MMxDV reminds me a whole lot of a wastegate.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

^^^inded they are similar in design and function, but they are definitely not interchangeable


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

babarber said:


> i would like to see the madmax dv and the r1 dv tested.
> it would also be beneficial to test the dvs with a vacuum on the release side to simulate the vacuum created at WOT


I can provide the same test posted on the Bosh 710N for the Madmax valve ( I hope VMG is not going to consider it an infraction of advertisement rules). The R1 and and the popular Forge valves, I am not going to take the chance because people get really defensive when their products are put under the light.

BTW there is no vacuum at WOT in real life, what can be tested by applying vacuum to the top chamber's nipple while the valves are pressurized is reaction speed and amount of vacuum needed to operate the valves at various spring rates (for example I found out that our engine does not generate enough vacuum to safely operate anything stiffer than the Forge yellow spring + a 1mm shim).


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

Big_Tom said:


> ^^^inded they are similar in design and function, but they are definitely not interchangeable


I Agree!

Diverter valves in general could get bigger though and that would narrow the gap between the two ( I know there are packaging limitations but performance is more important ). If you look at all the good performing DV/BOV they are all oversized with larger diameter piston or diaphragm plates (they are almost built like external wastegate valves) - this effectively improve performance without the need of stiffer springs and drivability is retained.


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## babarber (Nov 3, 2008)

i wasnt talking about vacuum at the top chamber i was talking about vacuum simulated by the air intake on the relief side of the DV. that should/or could affect the amount of pressure the valve can hold. my theory is that in real life operation. the vaccum applied tot he underside of the dv witht he spring and pressure holding the top of the valve shut it should affect how much the valve leaks or raise the threshold in which the valve is able to completely seal itself shut


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

babarber said:


> i wasnt talking about vacuum at the top chamber i was talking about vacuum simulated by the air intake on the relief side of the DV. that should/or could affect the amount of pressure the valve can hold. my theory is that in real life operation. the vaccum applied tot he underside of the dv witht he spring and pressure holding the top of the valve shut it should affect how much the valve leaks or raise the threshold in which the valve is able to completely seal itself shut


Questions:

1) I'm confused with your wording of the 'relief side'. I think relief side = intake pipe, yes?

2) Also, what vacuum is applied to the 'underside of the dv'. The only vacuum applied is to the control nipple, yes?

.......

A diverter valve has 3 ports. I'll name them 1) Charge Pipe 2) Intake Pipe 3) Control Nipple

The 3 ports connect to the charge pipe, intake pipe, and the intake manifold (respectively).

...


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

babarber said:


> i wasnt talking about vacuum at the top chamber i was talking about vacuum simulated by the air intake on the relief side of the DV. that should/or could affect the amount of pressure the valve can hold. my theory is that in real life operation. the vaccum applied tot he underside of the dv witht he spring and pressure holding the top of the valve shut it should affect how much the valve leaks or raise the threshold in which the valve is able to completely seal itself shut


Ahhh I see what you meant. In theory it makes sense but I don't know how that translates into practice. 

You gave me an idea though ( I am sure you saw that I only test for single variables at a time) I am going to test for the amount of vacuum that sucks the valve open from the outlet. IMO it will be another another representation of spring tension but in reverse.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

The_RoadWarrior said:


> Ahhh I see what you meant. In theory it makes sense but I don't know how that translates into practice.
> 
> You gave me an idea though ( I am sure you saw that I only test for single variables at a time) I am going to test for the amount of vacuum that sucks the valve open from the outlet. IMO it will be another another representation of spring tension but in reverse.


Aka... my test #2 from earlier in this thread.


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

groggory said:


> Questions:
> 
> 1) I'm confused with your wording of the 'relief side'. I think relief side = intake pipe, yes?
> 
> ...


What he means Greg is that the intake pipe (TIP) is under vacuum on turbo cars (ever saw the collapsing TIP videos?) and should be a factor in the overall DV operation. It makes sense because there is quite a bit of vacuum there at WOT. I have plumbed a line in my TIP to help my brake vacuum assist when I left foot brake at the track ( when the throttle is open there is no vaccum to aid the booster and applying the brakes while on the gas makes for super stiff brake pedal). The only thing is that the vacuum is stronger as you get closer to the turbo inlet and weaker as you approach the air filter - I don't know if vacuum is strong enough where the dv recirculating hose is situated to have a substantial impact (it would be interesting to place a vacuum gauge by that location to have some kind of idea of the vacuum generated).


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

The_RoadWarrior said:


> What he means Greg is that the intake pipe (TIP) is under vacuum on turbo cars (ever saw the collapsing TIP videos?) and should be a factor in the overall DV operation. It makes sense because there is quite a bit of vacuum there at WOT. I have plumbed a line in my TIP to help my brake vacuum assist when I left foot brake at the track ( when the throttle is open there is no vaccum to aid the booster and applying the brakes while on the gas makes for super stiff brake pedal). The only thing is that the vacuum is stronger as you get closer to the turbo inlet and weaker as you approach the air filter - I don't know if vacuum is strong enough where the dv recirculating hose is situated to have a substantial impact (it would be interesting to place a vacuum gauge by that location to have some kind of idea of the vacuum generated).


Wow, I totally forgot how much vacuum the intake sees. Yeah, I remember watching the collapsing TIP videos a long time ago. In my head I was picturing near negligable vac in the TIP...but that makes a lot of sense.

Really cool idea with your brake booster BTW.

TIP -> Check Valve -> T
IM -> Check Valve -> T
T -> Brake Booster

Super Smart!

On my setup I have one nipple plugged on my TIP (see below), but as you said it's kind of close to the air filter. It would make a lot more sense if I were to tap into the metal TIP pipe ~6" from the turbo inlet to maximize the vacuum it would see.










When I have some time I'm going to do that! Once I have that tapped it would be a piece of cake to run it to my in-cabin boost/vac gauge and see what's going on under boost. It would be coolest if we could see these three gauges side by side...
1) vac present at the very end of the TIP
2) vac/boost present in the intake manifold
3) vac present in the brake booster


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Nice discussion guys:thumbup:
Whats the skinny with the videos that Max uploaded? Youtube says they are unlisted so it only plays the audio? Whats the deal?


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Twopnt016v said:


> Nice discussion guys:thumbup:
> Whats the skinny with the videos that Max uploaded? Youtube says they are unlisted so it only plays the audio? Whats the deal?


Dunno... But I took notes on it a post or two after


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

Twopnt016v said:


> Nice discussion guys:thumbup:
> Whats the skinny with the videos that Max uploaded? Youtube says they are unlisted so it only plays the audio? Whats the deal?


That's weird, are you clicking on the links provided? I just tried and all 3 links worked for me.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

The_RoadWarrior said:


> That's weird, are you clicking on the links provided? I just tried and all 3 links worked for me.


I'm not sure what was happening... I finally got to view it when I opened vortex in Firefox. I'm on a mac and use Safari but I've never had a problem before?...:beer::beer:

So just to clarify?...VW mounted the DV in pull orientation from the factory on a 1.8t which must have been to compensate for a weak valve? I run my day to day APR R1 in pull orientation even thought you are saying push is better for daily? Am I getting that right?


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

Twopnt016v said:


> I'm not sure what was happening... I finally got to view it when I opened vortex in Firefox. I'm on a mac and use Safari but I've never had a problem before?...:beer::beer:
> 
> So just to clarify?...VW mounted the DV in pull orientation from the factory on a 1.8t which must have been to compensate for a weak valve? I run my day to day APR R1 in pull orientation even thought you are saying push is better for daily? Am I getting that right?


Yes, you are getting it right! Originally the Bosh valves were designed and mounted in push orientation like they should (at least with Audi). After they started getting complaints and problems, they issued a technical service bulletin that asked for the valve to be reversed at service because of "Honking noise".

Your R1 valve is designed to be mounted in push orientation so you have both vacuum and excess pressure operating the valve. Certain valves are designed to work in both orientations and still retain full functionality but the R1 is not one of them. 

The way you rock it, if you have a vacuum leak that is substantial enough or loose your vacuum signal to the valve for some reason, nothing is protecting your turbo. Part throttle is much better in push style anyway because sometime the TB is not fully closed and the manifold is not seeing vacuum yet; However the pressure outside the TB plate is dangerously high because of the load (going uphill for example) and is in need of bypass to prevent back pressure. These situations are controlled with the push orientation because although there is no vacuum signal, the excessive pressure is bypassed because the spring holding capacity is exceeded.


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## babarber (Nov 3, 2008)

its been a while since i have seen this much good info in a thread! keep it coming :thumbup: 
definitely FAQ worthy


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## Andaloons (Apr 16, 2004)

This thread is exactly why I hang around the vortex. Something so complex is overlooked for a long period of time until somebody starts to ask the right questions. Here we have a diverter valve thread which everyone thought was a dead subject and now a great technical discussion is born!

:thumbup:


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## babarber (Nov 3, 2008)

i think something about xmas time is getting people excited cuz until lately vortex was kinda slow for good info


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

The_RoadWarrior said:


> Yes, you are getting it right! Originally the Bosh valves were designed and mounted in push orientation like they should (at least with Audi). After they started getting complaints and problems, they issued a technical service bulletin that asked for the valve to be reversed at service because of "Honking noise".
> 
> Your R1 valve is designed to be mounted in push orientation so you have both vacuum and excess pressure operating the valve. Certain valves are designed to work in both orientations and still retain full functionality but the R1 is not one of them.
> 
> The way you rock it, if you have a vacuum leak that is substantial enough or loose your vacuum signal to the valve for some reason, nothing is protecting your turbo. Part throttle is much better in push style anyway because sometime the TB is not fully closed and the manifold is not seeing vacuum yet; However the pressure outside the TB plate is dangerously high because of the load (going uphill for example) and is in need of bypass to prevent back pressure. These situations are controlled with the push orientation because although there is no vacuum signal, the excessive pressure is bypassed because the spring holding capacity is exceeded.


Thanks for verifying that Max. That was exactly what I understood when I read your thread about Dv's. I was planning on swapping mine around but I figured it would just leak off too much boost. I hold 23psi to redline and wasn't sure if the R1 would do work orientated that way. I'm going to swap it around before I head to the shop this morning:thumbup: As soon as the holiday dust settles I am getting the gangster madmax dv anyway:laugh::thumbup::beer:

update...swapped the dv around and I must say that part throttle is noticeably better:thumbup: The car would still cruise along and hold 24-25psi but I'm sure the turbo is working extra hard to fulfill boost but at least there wasn't noticeable drops in boost like I imagined. Can't wait to fee the quick recovery time of the MM dv!!


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Wait wait wait.....So you're saying I can flip my TT225 dv over and run it backwards and it will take care of that annoying honking noise it makes at 7" of vacuum??


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

911_fan said:


> Wait wait wait.....So you're saying I can flip my TT225 dv over and run it backwards and it will take care of that annoying honking noise it makes at 7" of vacuum??


LOL, probably


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

Twopnt016v said:


> Thanks for verifying that Max. That was exactly what I understood when I read your thread about Dv's. I was planning on swapping mine around but I figured it would just leak off too much boost. I hold 23psi to redline and wasn't sure if the R1 would do work orientated that way. I'm going to swap it around before I head to the shop this morning:thumbup: As soon as the holiday dust settles I am getting the gangster madmax dv anyway:laugh::thumbup::beer:
> 
> update...swapped the dv around and I must say that part throttle is noticeably better:thumbup: The car would still cruise along and hold 24-25psi but I'm sure the turbo is working extra hard to fulfill boost but at least there wasn't noticeable drops in boost like I imagined. Can't wait to fee the quick recovery time of the MM dv!!


If the turbo is working any harder it's only doing so slightly at WOT, and part throttle is greatly relieved from pressure back up that would be slowing down the blades in pressure differential situations ( its a compromise but I think the advantage here far outweigh the drawback).

PS: I'm sure Madmax has something special for you!


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

The_RoadWarrior said:


> If the turbo is working any harder it's only doing so slightly at WOT, and part throttle is greatly relieved from pressure back up that would be slowing down the blades in pressure differential situations ( its a compromise but I think the advantage here far outweigh the drawback).
> 
> PS: I'm sure Madmax has something special for you!


Those were my thoughts exactly. 

PS: Madmax is my hero!


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

Big_Tom said:


> LOL, probably


He would have to tell us how it's mounted to begin with ( I think )


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

I removed the stock dv and replaced it with the TT225 unit. Same directional placement.

Ever since, it makes this "oooooOOOOOH" noise at approximately 7" of vacuum. Its louder if I run a cone filter. Sounds like its coming from the inter-cooler area, but I started when I upgraded the dv. I just figured it was the TT225 unit that was faulty.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

The_RoadWarrior said:


> He would have to tell us how it's mounted to begin with ( I think )


:beer:


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

This makes me want to get rid of my dual DV setup and just weld a 50mm flange on for a Tial BOV and be done with it on the FWD car with the 3076

A simple MAF unplug and thats that.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

gdoggmoney said:


> This makes me want to get rid of my dual DV setup and just weld a 50mm flange on for a Tial BOV and be done with it on the FWD car with the 3076
> 
> A simple MAF unplug and thats that.


ditch them for a greddy type-s


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

gdoggmoney said:


> This makes me want to get rid of my dual DV setup and just weld a 50mm flange on for a Tial BOV and be done with it on the FWD car with the 3076
> 
> A simple MAF unplug and thats that.


Dual DV setup sounds cool, any pictures?

As far as needing to go with a flanged Tial to have have big boost holding capacity, there are simpler alternatives that will hold insane boost while still reacting and recovering quicker than the Tial.

I get the "Madmax valve" to seal big pressure on spring strength only, mount that thing in push orientation and you got a lightning quick valve that will hold anything you can give it ( Canadian rally team, nationally competitive SCCA cars, and an army of TT all swear by it)

Testing the Madmax DV valve spring holding capacity at various pressure:

http://m.youtube.com/?client=mv-google&rdm=4ozmbjvui&tsp=1#/watch?v=ue9K1rBYWXc

http://m.youtube.com/?client=mv-google&rdm=4ozmbjvui&tsp=1#/watch?v=9VjwIFQqtZY

http://m.youtube.com/?client=mv-google&rdm=4ozmbjvui&tsp=1#/watch?v=LETV3QZOg5Y


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## babarber (Nov 3, 2008)

da effe is up with ur links? they made me think my pc got effed by sum virus or something lol


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

babarber said:


> da effe is up with ur links? they made me think my pc got effed by sum virus or something lol


they are wacky for me too lol :screwy:


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

Big_Tom said:


> they are wacky for me too lol :screwy:


WTF?
I'll see if I can upload other ones if they're not working :banghead:


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## bootymac (Apr 19, 2005)

The_RoadWarrior said:


> WTF?
> I'll see if I can upload other ones if they're not working :banghead:


They work fine. They're links to Youtube Mobile which is throwing people off


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Worked fine on my Mac - impressive test results BTW :thumbup:


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Very nice results.

Now redo the tests but then show how much vac to blow it all off.

PS...here's the non-youtube-mobile links for those that want to see his impressive DV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LETV3QZOg5Y&sns=em 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VjwIFQqtZY&sns=em 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue9K1rBYWXc&sns=em 

... If you have a piston style valve laying around please do the same tests. I don't see it as stepping on anyone's toes...just do the tests...no judgements.

May the best DV win.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Given that it holds the seal closed at 20psi or even 30psi, how does it behave if 10psi of vacuum is applied to the control nipple? Will it still not open if 20psi of boost is pressing against the piston?


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Given that it holds the seal closed at 20psi or even 30psi, how does it behave if 10psi of vacuum is applied to the control nipple? Will it still not open if 20psi of boost is pressing against the piston?


Excellent question.

Also, at 10, 20, and 30 psi ... what vac will cause all pressure to dump?


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## JettaGotBoost (Nov 27, 2010)

go buy a cai pipe and a cone filter from autozone. unplug your stock dv so it blows into atmosphere and getcha vroooom ppshhhhh on lol


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Given that it holds the seal closed at 20psi or even 30psi, how does it behave if 10psi of vacuum is applied to the control nipple? Will it still not open if 20psi of boost is pressing against the piston?


The same way it will behave with an OEM valve. Remember this is based on an OEM DV from Mitsu, the catch is the diaphragm plate that the spring is resting on is oversized (less spring pressure required per area). Just like the oversized Tial for example, a softer spring (needing less vacuum to operate) will hold the seal a lot better than a smaller piston/plate of the same rate. Think of it as enlarging an internal wastegate flap, it holds more pressure with all else equal because that pressure is distributed over a larger surface.

The same tested valve cracks open at OEM range vacuum for a 1.8t


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

The_RoadWarrior said:


> The same way it will behave with an OEM valve. Remember this is based on an OEM DV from Mitsu, the catch is the diaphragm plate that the spring is resting on is oversized (less spring pressure required per area). Just like the oversized Tial for example, a softer spring (needing less vacuum to operate) will hold the seal a lot better than a smaller piston/plate of the same rate. Think of it as enlarging an internal wastegate flap, it holds more pressure with all else equal because that pressure is distributed over a larger surface.
> 
> The same tested valve cracks open at OEM range vacuum for a 1.8t


So if you hook the charge pipe to the vac nipple up top the mad max dv will leak too?

Just to be clear.


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## The_RoadWarrior (Nov 21, 2011)

groggory said:


> So if you hook the charge pipe to the vac nipple up top the mad max dv will leak too?
> 
> Just to be clear.


Do you mean hooking both the inlet and the vacuum nipple with pressure?
If so, the Madmax valve will hold over a 60 psi that way ( I stopped at 60 psi because my rubber hose was dangerously ballooning).

The Bosh valves are leaking just like other plastic valves struggle to make a good seal no matter what you do. Mitsubishi also have a plastic version of the metal valve I use for my modifications, it leaks horribly just like the Bosh valves.That is why Mitsubishi from the EVO IX and up gave up on the plastic shells ( the JDM and MR variants used the metal valves already).


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

The_RoadWarrior said:


> T...the diaphragm plate that the spring is resting on is oversized ... that pressure is distributed over a larger surface.


exactly the answer I was looking for.


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

My take on the MadMax DV...

So I installed the DV (and tried it in both directions) and no matter what I did I kept hearing compressor flutter when getting off the throttle. I installed the stock DV and the flutter was gone. I also didn't see any more boost being held or boost being held longer than normal. Everything was the same. If anything was different it was when shifting at WOT, where the response was just a little better than stock.

I pull a solid 20mm/hg at idle, spike 19-20 psi, and show 12 psi at redline so I'm pretty sure I don't have any leaks. I got the same results with both DVs. The stock one wasn't ripped like I thought it was, the "honking" I kept/keep hearing is a post-cat exhaust leak. I like the construction of this new DV, but the fluttering really concerns me, and I have been using the stock 710N since. I wonder if the preload is just too high for my car. I would like to use the new DV (badly) but again the fluttering doesn't rest well with me.

I'm not sure what to do, especially because Max is getting banned left and right! If you're out there, Max, please chime in!!!


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

^^^relax dude, "max" is still here. have you tried running the DV directly off the intake manifold with a dedicate boost/vacuum source?


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## babarber (Nov 3, 2008)

according to madmax the fluttering is just because the ultra fast response time of the dv. i believe him cuz the stock DV on my wolfsburg does the same thing


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

So really, how bad is surge?
There is generally concern over the effects compressor surge has on the turbo, ranging from:

“OMG, my turbo and/or engine are going to blow up”, to “my turbo’s life is probably going to be shortened, but I love the surging sound”, to “whatever - my turbo’s been surging for years and is still going strong”

So what’s the reality? First of all, engine damage is highly unlikely, unless the turbo fails catastrophically and sends bits of compressor through the engine, but even then it would have to make it through the intercooler first.
The severest form of surge occurs during wide-open throttle (WOT) rather than when closing the throttle - the turbo is surging because it’s cramming air in faster than the engine can take it. In these conditions, the diverter valve has no role to play as it should be shut under WOT conditions. Since the turbo is actually making significant boost, is at high RPM, and the pressure is fluctuating wildly because of the surge, these conditions do have the potential to cause greatly accelerated turbo bearing wear and/or damage to the compressor wheel.

The next level down in severity is having no diverter valve of any type. In this case, the turbo will surge every time the throttle is closed if there is boost pressure in the intercooler. These conditions can cause accelerated turbo bearing wear, however in lightly boosted systems this is unlikely to shorten the turbo’s life a great deal – note that diverter valves were not commonly factory-fitted to turbo cars prior to the early ‘90s, and turbos were still considered to have an acceptable life expectancy. Such turbo systems however were generally running relatively low boost pressures, and it would be fair to say that wear would be greater on a more heavily boosted turbo.

The lowest level of severity would be cars fitted with a diverter valve that sometimes encounters surge at lower RPM, before the turbo has fully spooled up. In these cases, wear associated with the surge could be considered negligible - other factors such as increased boost or even differences in driving style are more likely to have a greater impact of the overall life-span of such a turbo than low RPM surge.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

for what its worth if i let/make my car blow off at around 15 psi or so i get a little flutter sometimes. this only happens when i let it spool up on part throttle and then short shift. some valves/turbo combinations just do that. i know my valve is functioning properly because: 1) it opens even at very light throttle (if it is close to 0 or above it on my boost gauge i will hear it let off). 2) it does not flutter under WOT releases 3) it holds full boost without opening


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Big_Tom said:


> ^^^relax dude, "max" is still here. have you tried running the DV directly off the intake manifold with a dedicate boost/vacuum source?


I'm relaxed, thank you. No I haven't. I would like to retain the stock N249 and its lines.



babarber said:


> according to madmax the fluttering is just because the ultra fast response time of the dv. i believe him cuz the stock DV on my wolfsburg does the same thing


Ultra fast response in what sense? I think, if anything, it's clamping shut too quickly before all of the boost pressure can be released. My stock 710N has ultra fast response with zero part or full throttle surging when the throttle is released.



Twopnt016v said:


> The lowest level of severity...impact of the overall life-span of such a turbo than low RPM surge.


But wouldn't you agree that zero surge is better than even a 'low level of severity' surge? I don't mean to sound pessimistic here; I WANT to utilize this (seemingly) nice (and hyped up) DV I just bought for my car, but the surging compromises some of the turbo's reliability - whether it's extremely severe or not.

If the MadMax DV has a larger diaphragm surface area than the 710N (which it very clearly does), then why is the spring preload so stiff?! :screwy: Isn't the whole philosophy behind the larger diaphragm to allow for a mellower spring stiffness?  I think maybe my MadMax DV has been "crushed" too much, making it difficult to release boost when needed.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

suffocatemymind said:


> But wouldn't you agree that zero surge is better than even a 'low level of severity' surge? I don't mean to sound pessimistic here; I WANT to utilize this (seemingly) nice (and hyped up) DV I just bought for my car, but the surging compromises some of the turbo's reliability - whether it's extremely severe or not.
> 
> If the MadMax DV has a larger diaphragm surface area than the 710N (which it very clearly does), then why is the spring preload so stiff?! :screwy: Isn't the whole philosophy behind the larger diaphragm to allow for a mellower spring stiffness?  I think maybe my MadMax DV has been "crushed" too much, making it difficult to release boost when needed.


I understand where your coming from...
I also have a HKS SSQ BOV and it makes the same minor flutter at low rpm's.
These valves do have stiffer springs to allow for holding more boost.
As stated the damage to the turbo is pretty much no existent at the level. Just because there is noise doesn't mean it is damaging to components. You gotta remember that we are dealing with air here, you can hear your turbo spool/whine but that doesn't mean it is damaging itself. As Tom stated you may want to look into the vac source. As Max stated your system has to be 100% free of leaks for this valve to work perfectly. He even offers to send a free pressure tester to whoever needs it. Most people have multiple leaks when they think they have zero. This may be something you may want to look into doing(pressure test).


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

^^^exactly. vacuum is what opens your valve. if you have leaks it will open slower or not all the way. to be FAIR OP, it's possible your valve was "crushed" too much, but it's unlikely. people have been running these valves for many years on all platforms, and they have proven to be superior to a lot of aftermarket stuff.


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Thanks for the detailed and reassuring responses guys :beer:

While I'm pretty sure I have no leaks, I'm going to stop being stubborn and do a pressure test. This should once and for all rule out the "weak vacuum" variable.

Tom: it is very possible that he over crushed it (they aren't crushed from the factory, FYI...this is a modification). He even said himself that it was a very hit or miss thing in that it takes practice not to over do it. For instance, he had mistakenly over crushed a valve for an Audi TT user (forgot his name...it's in that huge DV thread in the TT forums). People can make mistakes and I totally get that. Hopefully it's just on my end with a leak :wave: I really wanna use this thing.

I'll get to that this weekend and report back.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

suffocatemymind said:


> Thanks for the detailed and reassuring responses guys :beer:
> 
> While I'm pretty sure I have no leaks, I'm going to stop being stubborn and do a pressure test. This should once and for all rule out the "weak vacuum" variable.
> 
> ...


:beer:


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Here to say, you will get some flutter even with something like a Tial Q BOV v2. I had slight surge on a 3071R @ > 20psi with a Tial Q v 2, and when it dumped you HEARD it.


Pics of dual diverter valve setup coming later when I can post them.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Just an fyi...

Did my oil over the weekend and flipped my diverter valve. That annoying ooooOOOO sound @ 7" of vacuum is gone. :thumbup: So glad for threads like this.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

911_fan said:


> Just an fyi...
> 
> Did my oil over the weekend and flipped my diverter valve. That annoying ooooOOOO sound @ 7" of vacuum is gone. :thumbup: So glad for threads like this.


:thumbup:Titties:thumbup:


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

So I did a pressure test this weekend and didn't find any leaks. However, I replaced/tightened up some clamps in the process which definitely (and surprisingly) helped build boost quicker. I also found a cracked PCV piece (the plastic "Y" piece right off the valve cover). Do you think that this would emphasize any issues?

Whatever the case, I'm going to give it another go. Max is too nice of a guy and I'd be too ignorant of a consumer if I didn't do so. Plus, the thing lookS pretty mean!

Haha, I'll report back at the end of the week. Thanks again for all of the wisdom/reassurance guys :beer:


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

suffocatemymind said:


> So I did a pressure test this weekend and didn't find any leaks. However, I replaced/tightened up some clamps in the process which definitely (and surprisingly) helped build boost quicker. I also found a cracked PCV piece (the plastic "Y" piece right off the valve cover). Do you think that this would emphasize any issues?
> 
> Whatever the case, I'm going to give it another go. Max is too nice of a guy and I'd be too ignorant of a consumer if I didn't do so. Plus, the thing lookS pretty mean!
> 
> Haha, I'll report back at the end of the week. Thanks again for all of the wisdom/reassurance guys :beer:


That's a vacuum leak for sure. Once boost builds, the pcv check valves shut.


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Hey guys just wanted to post an update.

I fixed the cracked PCV piece and bypassed the N249 the other day. To be honest, I was really surprised at the difference those changes made. I held more boost (~1.5 psi) and for longer (~200 rpms), and this was with the stock 710N DV.

I then decided to try my MadMax valve with the new set up and wow...amazing! Even more boost, more response, and no "N249 mechanical malfunction" fault code (this popped up with the N249 in the loop). My car has never felt this smooth or responsive before. 

So long story short, I highly recommend the MadMax DV (aka modified Evo valve). It's a game changer.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Very nice!!!:laugh::thumbup: 
Did you follow the DIY I posted to bypass the n249? 
I still get the code but no CEL. I left mine plugged in but no vac lines running to it. I did mine just like the DIY I posted. It's awesome you don't throw a code anymore!!!:thumbup:


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Yes I used that DIY link and studied a vacuum diagram to get things right the first time. Big thanks man :beer:

As for the N249 fault, it wasn't showing a stored code after a few hours of driving (whereas it would pop up in < 5 minutes if driving EVERY time I cleared it with the new valve). However, it's been a few days now so I'll go scan the car now just to be sure it didn't come back :thumbup: ...be right back!


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

So it appears that I do in fact have the N249 mechanical malfunction fault stored. I'm not sure whether it's triggering the CEL because I also have the SAI incorrect flow fault (which definitely triggers the light). I will be replacing my rear o2 within the next week or so to try and clear the SAI fault once and for all. Hopefully this is just a "soft" code like Twopnt016v is experiencing (staring at a light gets old)...because this DV operation is insane haha. I highly, highly recommend it and I really can't stress that enough.

:beer:


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Another update: I cleared my DTCs after my last post on this thread and the N249 Mechanical Malfunction fault has yet to come back. It's very strange...especially since it would show up after only 5 minutes of driving like clockwork.

Either way, I'm almost positive that it doesn't trigger the CEL - and better yet, it might not even become a stored fault if you bypass the N249 (like my current setup - bypass HIGHLY recommended!). Hopefully any of those who were/are on the fence about this DV due to the possible DTC are now worry-free.

So for yet another long story short, I believe that the best DV for 99% of the 1.8T platforms out there (this includes many BT applications) is the MadMax DV with the N249 bypassed...the end!


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## nuff said (Nov 22, 2011)

*Diverter valves*

Ebay sells a forge style 007 type dv.I just bought one .They are top notch,at least as good as forge,but only 50 bucks instead of 120 bucks


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

suffocatemymind said:


> My take on the MadMax DV...
> 
> I'm not sure what to do, especially because Max is getting banned left and right! If you're out there, Max, please chime in!!!


Why do the Mods keep banning him? The guy has a lot of useful information for this Forum. The guy knows his s**t. He's developed a useful product and now the Mods have effectively squashed the knowledge of that product. I'm not impressed with that at all.


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Chickenman35 said:


> Why do the Mods keep banning him? The guy has a lot of useful information for this Forum. The guy knows his s**t. He's developed a useful product and now the Mods have effectively squashed the knowledge of that product. I'm not impressed with that at all.


I really couldn't agree with you more. Before his DV insight/experiments, I had never really thought to "upgrade" mine since I thought it was "fine". Very smart guy, and incredibly helpful when I contacted him via email not too long ago...he just wants to help everyone! Haha, no joke.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

The n249 code does not turn on the cel and my car passed emissions with the fault stored since it was intermittent. 

Max is a cool guy...the "big fish" in the pond are just pissed because Max's valve is better then their valve:laugh: I do miss the technical info that Max would bring to the table:thumbup: It's all politics as with anything:thumbdown:


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## th3 cavalry (Nov 3, 2011)

Great info guys. Subscribed

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk


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## hatetolovemydub (Oct 27, 2009)

Max didn't take $hit. Lotta folks here don't like that.


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## dubinsincuwereindiapers (Jan 16, 2008)

Max would've been banned regardless of him selling a better dv IMO. Really. Look at how many times Aaron has been banned, and the only thing he's ever been guilty of is calling guys out who have no idea what they are talking about, and flaming threads that should've been locked, or moved in the first place. Max was a similar type of forum member IMO


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## tom8thebomb (Nov 28, 2002)

The_RoadWarrior said:


> Very good observation, I was trained to always test for a single variable if I were to have any kind of valid scientific result.


:thumbup:
my advice....add a duck call on a blow off valve.
1.) car runs like sh*t
2.) duck call


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## hatetolovemydub (Oct 27, 2009)

dubinsincuwereindiapers said:


> Max would've been banned regardless of him selling a better dv IMO. Really. Look at how many times Aaron has been banned, and the only thing he's ever been guilty of is calling guys out who have no idea what they are talking about, and flaming threads that should've been locked, or moved in the first place. Max was a similar type of forum member IMO


:thumbup::beer:

There are a few guys here that really know their $hit...^ you included. Most are always on the cusp of being canned for telling it like it is. Sucks donkey balls. Oh well. 


Anyway, just read this thread in it's entirety. Awesome stuff here...


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## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

my $40 ebay TT cold air intake has done a dandy job the last year. :thumbup:


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## iluvbst (Jan 23, 2012)

Aem intake and forge spliter...sounds sick


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

Slimjimmn said:


> my $40 ebay TT cold air intake has done a dandy job the last year. :thumbup:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/CXRACING-99...s=Make:Volkswagen&vxp=mtr&hash=item20c124a052


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## tom8thebomb (Nov 28, 2002)

Big_Tom said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/CXRACING-99...s=Make:Volkswagen&vxp=mtr&hash=item20c124a052


welds look nice....but its guaranteed to use as many hose clamps as possible 

also the cone filters with metal lining on the filter media rust to the point where is restricts air flow. buy a k&n.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

tom8thebomb said:


> welds look nice....but its guaranteed to use as many hose clamps as possible
> 
> also the cone filters with metal lining on the filter media rust to the point where is restricts air flow. buy a k&n.


LOL about the clamps. you're right however one pc intakes can be a bitch to install. my cold air extension is a bitch to get into place sometimes. this should be easier to work into place. about the air filter, i usually just go buy an AEM dryflow when i order an intake from ebay. my turbo kit came with a AFE filter so i'm currently using that. they make awesome filters as well :thumbup:


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## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

my ebay intake fit pretty well. It came with hose clamps and yes the filter was a cheapo, but it works. I want to get a k&n this spring to replace it. Havent looked to see if the end is still on lol


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## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

The_RoadWarrior said:


> Cool test and good find :thumbup:
> 
> Although the test only focus is on vacuum operation and travel, it is valuable data. Some stuff could be argued (the various Bosh units are not identical at all) but that is besides the point.
> 
> ...


shout out to the badass video game CD ya got there. hehe :laugh:


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## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

but that video shows the incorrect way a 710 valve is installed in the car to a pressure test. Yes, in theory, that is the correct way to pressure test it (boost pressure vs spring tension). :sly:


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Slimjimmn said:


> but that video shows the incorrect way a 710 valve is installed in the car to a pressure test. Yes, in theory, that is the correct way to pressure test it (boost pressure vs spring tension). :sly:


I guess you missed the part where vw/audi had to flip the valve around due to it bleeding off boost and the valve making noise. There are two ways to mount a dv...Push orientation and pull orientation. Push is always best especially for street cars. This means that the boost pressure is pushing the diaphragm open and vacuum is applied to the top to help it open. In pull orientation you only have the vac line on top opening the valve. The boost pressure is actually helping the valve stay closed which is not ideal. Most DV's are really only run in pull orientation to make up for a weak valve. :thumbup:


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Twopnt016v said:


> I guess you missed the part where vw/audi had to flip the valve around due to it bleeding off boost and the valve making noise. There are two ways to mount a dv...Push orientation and pull orientation. Push is always best especially for street cars. This means that the boost pressure is pushing the diaphragm open and vacuum is applied to the top to help it open. In pull orientation you only have the vac line on top opening the valve. The boost pressure is actually helping the valve stay closed which is not ideal. Most DV's are really only run in pull orientation to make up for a weak valve. :thumbup:


:thumbup:


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## nuff said (Nov 22, 2011)

*Diverter valves*

Important info here,good work on this ,thanks.I had a 710 n and leaking but listening to people who said the 710 n was good up to 20 psi.I'm glad I did not believe them . I got a forge style dv that is exactly like a 007 valve,new for 50 bucks .Before this my psi was dropping to 10 at top rpms with a giac x plus tune.Now with the new dv and a couple other mods, I'm holding 17 psi at 6500 rpm,
quite a difference.,on a ko3s


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## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

hope you didnt buy an EBAY forge style 007 valve:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5587573-evoms-dv-fail-why-you-only-buy-FORGE-007-valves

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Heart&TTsoul (Mar 23, 2014)

*MadMax DV*

I read this entire thread and went into this thread with an incredible amount of hesitation doing this mod or not in replacement of my forge 007 DV to the MadMax DV which seems to be the talk of the town in my TT world and other 1.8 engines. I'm not incredibly tech savy in understanding everything for the push or pull location and how much its "Crushed" or not? but what I got out of all of this is that its a valve that was recreated by hand to be much quicker of a reacting valve than all others. See if somone can help me. I have a BMC intake and 3" downpipe and cat back exhaust and a bunch of other things including a APR tune. I Just really want to know if I buy this valve if it wont be crushed enough or not. theres no quality control or anything like a warranty I can go off of if anything goes wrong. and I'm not savy enough to just say oh this went wrong and i just have to do blank to fix it. I just want to know if i can retrofit this MadMax DV in such a way that I wont ever have to worry about it again and that its not going to damage any of my car prematurely in comparison to my 007 dv right now. I don't want to read anymore threads I just keep getting more confused and thinking I just shouldn't do it but every time i go for WOT it takes my car like 3.5 sec till I reach full boost and if someone is claiming that there's a dv that can eliminate that to like 1 to 2 sec that would be kinda nice without having to compromise any reliability. Please help somone


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Heart&TTsoul said:


> I read this entire thread and went into this thread with an incredible amount of hesitation doing this mod or not in replacement of my forge 007 DV to the MadMax DV which seems to be the talk of the town in my TT world and other 1.8 engines. I'm not incredibly tech savy in understanding everything for the push or pull location and how much its "Crushed" or not? but what I got out of all of this is that its a valve that was recreated by hand to be much quicker of a reacting valve than all others. See if somone can help me. I have a BMC intake and 3" downpipe and cat back exhaust and a bunch of other things including a APR tune. I Just really want to know if I buy this valve if it wont be crushed enough or not. theres no quality control or anything like a warranty I can go off of if anything goes wrong. and I'm not savy enough to just say oh this went wrong and i just have to do blank to fix it. I just want to know if i can retrofit this MadMax DV in such a way that I wont ever have to worry about it again and that its not going to damage any of my car prematurely in comparison to my 007 dv right now. I don't want to read anymore threads I just keep getting more confused and thinking I just shouldn't do it but every time i go for WOT it takes my car like 3.5 sec till I reach full boost and if someone is claiming that there's a dv that can eliminate that to like 1 to 2 sec that would be kinda nice without having to compromise any reliability. Please help somone


I love the stream of consciousness vibe of this post, but the kernel of it is based on the assumption your DV has an impact on boost onset performance. It doesn't. So long as you're running an operational diverter valve, your boost behavior will be determined by other factors, such as the type of turbo you are running on a 1.8T displacement.


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Heart&TTsoul said:


> I read this entire thread and went into this thread with an incredible amount of hesitation doing this mod or not in replacement of my forge 007 DV to the MadMax DV which seems to be the talk of the town in my TT world and other 1.8 engines. I'm not incredibly tech savy in understanding everything for the push or pull location and how much its "Crushed" or not? but what I got out of all of this is that its a valve that was recreated by hand to be much quicker of a reacting valve than all others. See if somone can help me. I have a BMC intake and 3" downpipe and cat back exhaust and a bunch of other things including a APR tune. I Just really want to know if I buy this valve if it wont be crushed enough or not. theres no quality control or anything like a warranty I can go off of if anything goes wrong. and I'm not savy enough to just say oh this went wrong and i just have to do blank to fix it. I just want to know if i can retrofit this MadMax DV in such a way that I wont ever have to worry about it again and that its not going to damage any of my car prematurely in comparison to my 007 dv right now. I don't want to read anymore threads I just keep getting more confused and thinking I just shouldn't do it but every time i go for WOT it takes my car like 3.5 sec till I reach full boost and if someone is claiming that there's a dv that can eliminate that to like 1 to 2 sec that would be kinda nice without having to compromise any reliability. Please help somone


I've been dailying this DV for 3 years, so there's no "initial fluff" in what I'm about to say.

You really need to have zero boost/vac leaks and bypass the N249 in order for this unit to run 100% without issues. I'll say it again - you will need to. If that is over your head, then stick with your Forge valve. There's nothing wrong with it. They are "tried and true". Not trying to get into the diaphragm vs. piston DV debate, both have their place, but a proper diaphragm DV WILL outperform a piston DV in terms of boost recovery and onset response, and that's simple physics. There are many threads that go in to detail about this and I'm sorry to tell you "check this thread" again rather than spelling it out. The MMDV is truly a proper diaphragm valve.

The MMDV is actually pretty amazing when you get it going, but it'll take some fiddling with the barbs/connectors/vac line for the nipple (aka you'll probably have to run a new one). It will not bolt up to your current setup without the aforementioned minor work + bypassing your N249 + ensuring you have ZERO boost leaks. I also recommend using a hand vac pump (or the like) to test the crack vac before installing it. Make sure it is no more than 19inHg (more on this later).

The MMDV boost recovery between shifts is lightening fast and that is the biggest thing that I noticed. Boost onset does seem to come on quicker as well since it's only bypassing air at ~19 inHg, meaning it is clamped shut longer to help the turbo spool up. This all happens in fractions of a second, so it's not "unbelievable!", but you do notice it. In the correct "push" orientation (aka boost is pushing up the bottom of the valve aka backwards from stock aka how it should be), it holds well over 35 psi without the slightest fizzle of a leak, unlike pretty much everything else, including your Forge valve. That means that the turbo will not be working as hard to reach the desired boost of your tune since none of it is "wasted" back in the the intake. This also translates to lower EGTs, which is a plus for both performance and equipment longevity. I've noticed my car holds 1-2psi more boost and for longer. So yeah, it works.

Something worth noting since people seem to care is that it's loud. The big metal body really resonates more than plastic alternatives. I'm sure the 1.25" (or whatever it is) inlet and outlet add here too. I'm a fan of the stock airbox and I can hear this thing pop off no problem...like no problem. I actually love it. It's nothing like slapping a cone filter on there, but it's surely louder than stock...nice and not obnoxious. I'm sure it'd sound pretty sweet with a cone filter, too, if that's what you're in to.

I ran into some troubles with my MMDV and Max was nothing but incredibly helpful and easy to work with. First one was over-crushed. Second one was defective from the Mitsu factory (crazy leak when pressure tested). Third one has been perfect for 3 years. I am pretty sure I'm the only one who's had these issues and I'm telling you it was like dealing with a big name vendor. I paid for only 1 valve and he didn't waste anytime to get it rectified all on his dime. This will likely not happen with you, but if it does, you're in good hands.

It still performs flawlessly. It is seriously heavy duty and I have zero concern that it'll ever fail, unlike other diaphragm valves. Bear in mind that it's just a DV and not a tune or bigger turbo. Probably not the best for cammed engines as this thing really needs both good vac pulling on it and boost pushing on it in order for it to shine. For what it is, it's the best DV on the market for engines with at least 19inHg IMHO.

That's all I got - hope it helps.


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I love the stream of consciousness vibe of this post, but the kernel of it is based on the assumption your DV has an impact on boost onset performance. It doesn't. So long as you're running an operational diverter valve, your boost behavior will be determined by other factors, such as the type of turbo you are running on a 1.8T displacement.


It does if the valve is weak or has failed. But otherwise I agree with you.


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## Heart&TTsoul (Mar 23, 2014)

Thanks suffocate that was how I needed it broken down and personalized to my set up. I really like everything about it and hope that I won't get a defective one. But I'm going to have to really want to try it to risk having problems for a small gain maybe when it's warmer out ill see  Thanks for the reply


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