# Tyre Wear, Information about Phaeton Wheel Alignment



## pilgrim7777 (Oct 27, 2004)

*Tyre Wear*

Does anybody have any idea of tyre wear mileage life, how miles before replacement because I have a 2mm difference across the surface of the tyre, with wear on the outside front tyres after 8500 miles. at this rate of wear they will need replacing at around 16000 miles.Can I just add most of my mileage is motorways, no dragging away from the lights, no heavy braking, no apex hugging under full acceleration. Comments would helpful.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Tyre Wear (pilgrim7777)*

Hi Terence:
I have never had to purchase a new set of car tires, because I don't drive very much, and usually end up returning the car long before the tires wear out. But, I think that the tires provided with most new cars today last for about 40 to 50 thousand km's (about 25 to 35 thousand miles).
The fact that your tires are wearing unevenly is significant - it suggests that perhaps the wheels on your vehicle may not be properly aligned. You may want to ask your VW dealer to check this for you. Wheel alignment problems are covered under the North American warranty, as long as they have not been caused by something outside of VW's control, such as hitting a curb or adjusting the suspension settings. It's probably similar in the UK.
The Phaeton (and Touareg as well) require a very sophisticated 4 wheel alignment tool in order to do the job properly. I believe that it is a 'brand standard' that every VW dealer who sells these vehicles must have such a tool, however, you may want to do 'due diligence' and make sure that your dealer has the correct equipment. I have posted some photos below that show the equipment at my VW dealer, Volkswagen Richmond Hill, just north of Toronto, Canada. There are, I think, only a handful of alignment tool manufacturers who make alignment equipment that meets the new VW specifications for the Phaeton and Touareg.
A tool such as this is very expensive, I think somewhere in the range of USD $50K, and that does not include the cost of whatever building modifications are required to install the tool. The service manager at my VW dealership does an alignment on every Phaeton and Touareg as part of the PDI inspection process (you can see that the alignment tool is located right next to the PDI area). Her philosophy is that it is simpler and easier for everyone - customer and technician alike - if the alignment is checked and confirmed to be correct when the vehicle is still nice and clean, and the customer doesn't need a service loaner. As a result of this strategy, she rarely gets vehicles coming back with alignment problems after they have been delivered to the customer. My Phaeton (pictured above) needed to have the alignment checked because I lowered the car 10 mm to the European ride height specifications.
Michael
*Phaeton Wheel Alignment Tool - VAG 1944B*








*Display on the Screen of the Alignment tool*
The technician enters the VIN of the Phaeton, and the tool calls up all the correct actions to take, in the proper sequence.








*The device that is attached to each wheel*
This communicates with the central computer by radio frequency - there are no wires or cables. (Finally, Bluetooth on my Phaeton...







>
*One device is attached to each of the 4 wheels*
Adjustment made at one wheel may affect readings at another wheel. It is essential that all 4 wheels are constantly measured at all times while the work is being carried out. This explains why older, 'two wheel' alignment systems are not acceptable for use on a Phaeton or Touareg.








*The tool includes provision for lifting the car and adjusting it, while still measuring everything in real time*








*Example of Software included with this tool*
The tool displays when the calibration is within the allowed specification. In this picture, the measurements are within specification, but the front left camber measurement was only barely within spec. A little bit of fine-tuning and adjustment was needed to get all the values "right in the middle".








*Phaeton Wheel Alignment Tool - VAG 1944*
This is an earlier version of the same tool.


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## pilgrim7777 (Oct 27, 2004)

*Re: Tyre Wear (PanEuropean)*

Thanks Michael for your prompt reply. Yes those were my thoughts particularly since I have just gone through the similar experience with the Touareg. When I spoke to the dealership they expressed the view they did not think it was the wheel alignment however I will try again since there other small items to be sorted out.


_Modified by pilgrim7777 at 3:48 AM 6-15-2005_


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Tyre Wear (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Wheel alignment problems are covered under the North American warranty, as long as they have not been caused by something outside of VW's control, such as hitting a curb or adjusting the suspension settings.

One more condition on that: only as long as the vehicle's within the first 12 months/12000 miles. (see thread on "bumper to bumper" warranty)


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Tyre Wear (chrisj428)*

Ah, thanks for adding that, Chris.
Even if the Phaeton is more than one year old, I can't imagine that the process would be that expensive. I watched as the Phaeton technician at my dealership did the work - it took about an hour to do everything, from bringing the car in to driving the car out. If my car had needed more than just a few minor tweaks (tiny tweaks, to get it right in the middle of the green range), perhaps it might have required two hours of work.
Our Phaetons are still new enough that none of the parts would be worn out - I think that parts removal and replacement (not to mention the cost of the parts themselves) might be what accounts for most of the cost of so called 'front end' or 'alignment' repairs.
As I see it, an hour or two of labour is a pretty inexpensive investment, if it saves having to replace a set of tires prematurely. I am going to guess that the cost of one Phaeton tire, plus the work to install it, is probably equal to about three hours of VW shop labour.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Tyre Wear (PanEuropean)*

Here is a copy of the printout from the VAG 1944B that my dealership gave me after they had completed the wheel alignment on my Phaeton. It shows the 'before' and 'after' as being the same, this is because the test sequence had to be re-run to allow me to take pictures of the screen. No changes were made the second time through.
*VAG 1944B Wheel Alignment Report*


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## calmone (Feb 15, 2006)

*alignment questions*

1) i had very poor wear on one tire, the left front inside tread was down to cord, the other three tires wore evenly. the alignment read out showed only one really odd reading for the left front, that of "toe", which was minus .15 (.16 after alignment). would this cause my problem?
2. as an aside, i before i saw the alignment sheet from the shop that aligned the car, i went to an internet site and downloaded what were allegedly phaeton alignment specs. they differed from what the hunter machine showed as the specified range for front camber. the downloaded specs said front camber to be minus 1.13 plus or minus 0.42. the specs from the hunter machine said front camber should be minus 1.6 to minus 0.7degree. any thoughts on what the actual front camber specs are or why such a difference? i might add the hunter machine was probably not the vw specific machine, but the read out did say the specs were for 04-06 phaetons.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: alignment questions (calmone)*

Here's a printout from the VW-specific Hunter alignment machine at my local VW dealer - this printout was made last time I had the wheel alignment on my car done. The acceptable ranges are at the edges of the green bands. You may need to download and enlarge the photo to read the numbers.


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## v1mbrt (Dec 25, 2007)

*Re: Tyre Wear (pilgrim7777)*

> Does anybody have any idea of tyre wear mileage life, how miles before replacement because I have a 2mm difference across the surface of the tyre, with wear on the outside front tyres after 8500 miles. at this rate of wear they will need replacing at around 16000 miles.Can I just add most of my mileage is motorways, no dragging away from the lights, no heavy braking, no apex hugging under full acceleration. Comments would helpful. 
Same for me, though I do have this with every car. Is caused by my driving style: I do have the tendency to brake when going into a turn . In stead of braking before the corner and accellerating throughout the corner.


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

If you're getting even wear across the tyres then it will be the tread wear rating that will determine the mileage you'll get from them.
I recently replaced the Dunlop SP9000s that the car came with after 33,000 miles with some Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetrics and after long journeys the rubber is noticeably softer so I'm not expecting to get as many miles out of them.
Harry


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Tyre Wear (v1mbrt)*

What is the pattern of the 2mm difference across the surface of the tire? Perhaps inflation is not correct? Excessive wear in the middle suggests over-inflation, and the opposite suggests under-inflation.
It is common for the outside of the fronts to be more worn. You should rotate front to back at around 6k miles or so to minimize this. Ideally all four tires should wear out at the same time.
I doubt your driving habits are accelerating the wear. Which tires are you using and what is the treadwear number on the tire? This is a number usually between 150 and 600.
Steven


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: alignment questions (PanEuropean)*

I just had my car aligned at my VW dealer, and when I got home and looked at the print-out I noticed two things. One is that some of the acceptable "specified ranges' are quite different from those on Michaels' print out in this post. Two, it looks like my right rear camber is still not within spec.
My question is whether they used the incorrect spec ranges? If so, should I point it out to them and have them redo the alignment? Or, if the spec ranges are ok, then should I bother to ask them to correct the right rear camber?
By the way, the reason for the alignment, is that I put on a set of new tires, and just wanted to be sure the car was aligned, even though I was not experiencing any pulling or uneven wear. Here is a copy of my print out. Thanks in advance for your replies.








_Modified by remrem at 11:37 AM 5-20-2008_

_Modified by remrem at 11:39 AM 5-20-2008_


_Modified by remrem at 11:39 AM 5-20-2008_


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: alignment questions (remrem)*

Remrem,
Something else that's interesting about your printout is the noticeable difference in camber between the left and right side of the car, both front and rear. In fact, the front left camber is actually noticeably increased after the adjustment. 
Although technically still within specs, this is a condition I typically try to avoid when having an alignment done for my cars: I usually strive for evenness between the two sides, the only exception being when I try to compensate for uneven wear of suspension components on one side.
The data makes me wonder if the car was properly "seated" on its suspension before running the alignment: sometimes if a car has been lifted and then lowered but not gently pulled down and rolled slightly back and forth a bit on the bridge of the alignment machine, it might sit a bit high on its wheels. Another possibility was some weight on the left side, such as someone sitting in the driver's seat (unlikely) or heavy stuff in the trunk on the left side. From time to time over the years I have experienced some variation of these abnormal conditions with many of my cars, although never yet on the Phaeton: I suppose the self-levelling characteristics of its suspension might make it less likely.
Stefano


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: alignment questions (remrem)*

It appears to me that the specified ranges are identical on both your printout and mine. It also appears to me that the right rear camber on your car is not within the specified range following completion of your wheel alignment.
Michael


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: alignment questions (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_It appears to me that the specified ranges are identical on both your printout and mine. It also appears to me that the right rear camber on your car is not within the specified range following completion of your wheel alignment.
Michael

Thanks very much for your reply Michael, and yours too Motorista, much appreciated. 
I realize that some of the specs are identical, but unless I'm misinterpreting Michael's print out, it appears for instance, that the range for the Front Right Camber on Michael's print out is -1.55' to -.72', whereas on my print out it says -1.23' to -.33' (sorry, I don't know how to make the "degree" symbol







) 
If this is the case, then wouldn't one conclude that my Front Right Camber of -.48' is within spec using my print out , but out of spec using Michaels' print out?
Of course, as Michael pointed out, the Right Rear Camber is definitely out of spec. Also, as Motorista points out, the whole alignment seems a bit skewed, even though it is mostly within spec.
I guess what I'm asking is should I even bother to mention any of this to my VW service techs? They are really good people and I have a great relationship with them, and I just don't want to bother them if this is a non-issue.


_Modified by remrem at 7:01 PM 5-20-2008_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: alignment questions (remrem)*

The possibility exists that VW might have changed the specifications within the last two years. I know that they do put out periodic updates for the software in the alignment machine.
It appears that your dealer's machine has tighter specifications that are shown in the photos of my dealer's machine.
I've posted a screenshot of the machine that my dealer uses - not sure if it is the same machine that your dealer uses. FYI there is more info on this thread: Tyre Wear, Information about Phaeton Wheel Alignment.. if it is OK with you I would like to append this thread (your recent query) onto the end of that existing post, just to keep all the information in one spot.
Michael


_Modified by PanEuropean at 12:37 AM 5-21-2008_


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: alignment questions (PanEuropean)*

Thanks Michael,
Combining the threads sounds good to me.
So, what do you guys suggest I do? Considering that my right rear camber is definitely out, and taking into account Motorista's observations, do you think I should ask my VW service department to re-do the alignment, and get everything in the green? Or, is it close enough? 
I look forward to your replies.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: alignment questions (remrem)*

Threads merged.
Michael


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## ROC DOC (Apr 10, 2002)

*Re: alignment questions (remrem)*


_Quote, originally posted by *remrem* »_I just had my car aligned at my VW dealer, and when I got home and looked at the print-out I noticed two things. One is that some of the acceptable "specified ranges' are quite different from those on Michaels' print out in this post. Two, it looks like my right rear camber is still not within spec.
My question is whether they used the incorrect spec ranges? If so, should I point it out to them and have them redo the alignment? Or, if the spec ranges are ok, then should I bother to ask them to correct the right rear camber?
By the way, the reason for the alignment, is that I put on a set of new tires, and just wanted to be sure the car was aligned, even though I was not experiencing any pulling or uneven wear. Here is a copy of my print out. Thanks in advance for your replies.








_Modified by remrem at 11:37 AM 5-20-2008_

_Modified by remrem at 11:39 AM 5-20-2008_

_Modified by remrem at 11:39 AM 5-20-2008_

I too am looking for the spec sheet for the acceptable ranges allowed. In particular...trust angle for Scirocco's.
Any help/link to spec sheet appreciated!


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: alignment questions (ROC DOC)*

The best I can do is the following for an '82 Scirocco:
Caster Angle +1 1/3 to +2 1/3 deg 
Desired Caster + 1 5/6 deg 
Camber Angle Left -1/6 to +5/6 deg 
Right - 1/6 to +5/6 deg 
Desired Camber Angle Left + 1/3 deg 
Right + 1/3 deg 
Toe -1/12 to -1/2 deg 
Steven


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## rscharf (Jan 19, 2004)

*Re: alignment questions (remrem)*

Michael-
I started thinking about having the air suspension on and off vs. having an alignment done. I haven't seen a conversation on the forum about that. It would seem to me that the air suspension should not be shut off when it is in the lift for an alignment as long as the vehicle is not lifted separately off its wheels.
In your picture above with the title 'Phaeton Wheel Alignment Tool - VAG 1944B', I would think you'd want the air suspension active (the car should probably be left in the 'on' position to, not necessarily running).
In your picture above with the title 'The tool includes provision for lifting the car and adjusting it, while still measuring everything in real time', I would think the air suspension should be turned off (put in 'jack mode') so that the car is not trying to adjust the level of car (which could damage the system I assume?).
If the system is in jack mode for the alignment, I would think that the suspension could be at the wrong height and the alignment would be inaccurate. I guess this brings up the question, when you put the car in 'Jack Mode', does it stay at the height it was when it was put in that mode?
* Please let me know your thoughts.* 
Thanks.
Robert


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

What are your opinions (to all members) regarding the practice of lifting the vehicle while aligning a vehicle? From past practice on Porsche 928's, it is never a good idea to lift that car while doing alignments. Doing so would load suspension bushings and alter the normal ride height while aligning the car even when the car is let down while on the rack. On 928's, the car's suspension should be neutral and settled with ballast to simulate normal load while doing the alignment and must never be lifted while doing so. Is this not a good practice for any vehicle? Michael...are there any specs from the factory/engineers for adding ballast to the car in prep for wheel alignment? I seem to remember that BMW does and Porsche does.


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## mlong1 (Dec 6, 2007)

*Chopped Front Tires*

My 04 Phaeton is chopping the front tires. 
Two months ago I replaced a set of Good Years Eagles F1 tires with 18k miles on them. They were badly chopped. Imagine taking a cheese slicer and slicing at an almost 40 degree angle on the outer edges of the tires.
I hated the tires and thought the new Michelin Pilots would be the cure of the problem.
With almost 2k miles on the car I can tell that these are headed to have the same problem. I must share that these tires are much better quieter tires than the F1s.
I keep close attention to the tire pressure, I check the pressure once a week- old habit of mine. I keep the pressure within the recommended psi.
The dealer would like to do an alignment, I do not mind the $300 service but would like to ask if anyone has had a similar problem?
Marcos


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## vah (Oct 12, 2007)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (mlong1)*

i do an alignment every 30k miles. rotate the tires every 5k miles.
the tires lasting me 30k miles.
victor


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## mlong1 (Dec 6, 2007)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (vah)*

Hello Victor,
I had the tires rotated every 5k miles as well, so then all tires where chopped.... The tires became so noisy that is was like driving an off road truck!
Marcos


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## vah (Oct 12, 2007)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (mlong1)*

sorry i cannot help u.
my tires are very quite. and pleasure to drive on.
maybe the balance was not done right?
victor


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## CLMims (Jul 13, 2007)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (mlong1)*

What are the specs on the new tires? (Particularly the load rating) Anything below 103 will be prone to chopping, I had to replace a set of Pirellis on the car when I got it due to their 99 load rating, they started chopping badly...


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## Jim Morris (Nov 8, 2008)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (CLMims)*

Had the same thing happen to me, I felt that my Phaeton was 'out of balance' (it pulled to the right when I let go of the steering wheel and it also vibrated above 90mph) so I took it to a local tire shop to have it checked out. When the mechanic lifted the car the two front tires had chopped edges that were so bad that you could actually see the metallic fiber on the inside of the tire. The right one was almost to the point of bursting.
After applying two brand new Dunlop Sport/Heavy Load tires he balanced the wheels and there was a major deviation on my right front wheel. According to the mechanic the chopping was a result of this misalignment, so he told me to take my Phaeton in for balancing every 25.000km. 
With these heavy load tires costing me 150 euros a piece that's advice I'm sure to follow










_Modified by Jim Morris at 9:47 PM 6-14-2009_


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## ghostshipe (Jun 14, 2009)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (mlong1)*

you should know you cannot track the wheels of a phaeton by normal garage methods it has to be done useing a vag computor so the dealer has got you sorry


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (mlong1)*

Marcos, The uneven wear you are reporting is definitely due to misalignment: you should have an alignment done as quickly as possible. I also wonder if you could let us know at what inflation rating you keep them, as this may have an impact as well.
My experience with the Phaeton's tires has been very different: the OEM Michelins lasted 45k miles and wore perfectly evenly. I just replaced them with Bridgestone Turanza Serenities and took the opportunity for an alignment: the machine reported three wheels within spec and the rear right very slightly out of spec. I now have approximately 2k miles on the new tires, with no signs of wear. 
By the way, $ 300 for an alignment seems on the expensive side: I believe I paid only $99 at my VW dealer, and was present during the procedure. I can confirm that the Phaeton (at least the V8) is not any different from other cars in this respect.
Stefano


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (mlong1)*

Hi Marcos:
I'm not really sure what you mean when you say "chopped", but I'll try and give you some information that might assist you with troubleshooting.
*Tire Pressure: * The Phaeton is a heavy car, well over 5,000 pounds. Recommended tire inflation pressures are up in the 40s. There is a sticker on the driver side B pillar (just to your right when you open the driver door, near the plate that engages the door latch) that lists the recommended pressures for a full load (4 adults). Be sure that the tires are inflated to the correct pressure. Typically, the front two tires have higher inflation pressures than the rear.
*Tire Specification:* You mentioned the brand of tire you are using (Goodyear Eagle F1), but you did not mention the size or the load rating of the tire. Check to make sure that the load rating is appropriate for the weight of the vehicle. 
*Wheel Alignment: * The Phaeton requires a four wheel alignment machine - these are hugely expensive machines (close to $100K for the machine and the installation preparation). Although "in theory" a wheel alignment could be done using any four wheel alignment machine, in practice, a machine that has software in it specific to the Phaeton is needed, because this is where the technician gets both the specifications for the settings and the sequencing of tasks to do the job right. There is more information about wheel alignment at this post - Tyre Wear, Information about Phaeton Wheel Alignment  - in fact, I have taken the liberty of appending your recent post onto the end of the above thread, so, clicking on that link will take you back to the beginning of the discussion.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (Motorista)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Motorista* »_By the way, $ 300 for an alignment seems on the expensive side: I believe I paid only $99 at my VW dealer, and was present during the procedure. I can confirm that the Phaeton (at least the V8) is not any different from other cars in this respect.
Stefano

Hi Stefano:
I'm not so sure I agree with your comment that the Phaeton is "not any different from other cars" concerning alignment. The Touareg and the Phaeton are so different from other VW products that VW mandated that all dealers install the 4 wheel alignment machine shown above when these two vehicles were released in 2003. 
VW was unable to enforce that requirement in the USA due to laws protecting the rights of franchise dealers, however, the requirement to have a four wheel alignment platform was enforced in Canada and the ROW.
Michael


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## Jim Morris (Nov 8, 2008)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_The Phaeton requires a four wheel alignment machine - these are hugely expensive machines (close to $100K for the machine and the installation preparation).

This makes me kindof nervous about the alignment that was performed on my Phaeton last week... I had it done at the local tire shop across the street that has no affiliation with VW. It's a small shop, and I asked him if he could perform the balancing and alignment. He attached four diagnostical machines to the tires (one to each tire) and the computer that hooked up to it had the Phaeton listed as one of the supported car types (even my rare V10 was listed).
I don't think, however, that that shop could afford a $100k diagnostic machine (I don't even think my local Phaeton Centre could afford that







). Is it possible that these machines are way cheaper in Europe or have I been duped? I paid only 33 euros for the alignment (but the car stopped vibrating and doesn't pull to a side anymore).


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## adamkodish (Mar 5, 2006)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (Jim Morris)*

I had an alignment performed at my local wheel/tyre specialist and received a printout that looks the same as the one Michael posted from the VAG 1944B (see earlier in this thread on 29-Dec-2007)
Adam


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (PanEuropean)*

Michael, 
That's interesting - I was not aware of the ROW requirement. I too was concerned that the Phaeton might be more difficult than other cars, which is why I chose to hhave the alignment done by my VW dealer rather than the the tire place that does all of my other cars. 
All I can say is that Larry at my dealer used a late model Hunter 4-wheel machine which appeared to me comparable to the one my regular tire place uses. The video screens also looked almost identical to the ones in this thread, as does the printout with the data before and after. I'm now in Boston but when I return to Pittsburgh early next month to replace my cracked left window glass I will scan the printout and find a way to post it here for reference. I'm sure that if VW requires a special machine there might be a reason - however I also trust Larry whose expertise and knowledge of the Phaeton I've really come to appreciate over the years of my ownership - By the way the car is tracking perfectly and the wheels are perfectly balanced over the last 2k miles with the new tires.
Stefano


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (CLMims)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CLMims* »_What are the specs on the new tires? (Particularly the load rating) Anything below 103 will be prone to chopping, I had to replace a set of Pirellis on the car when I got it due to their 99 load rating, they started chopping badly...

I had the same issue with the Pirellis that were on my car when I bought it. The load rating was incorrect, and the tread was "chunking". Discount Tire put in a claim with Pirelli and they refunded about half the cost of the tires, despite the load rating being insufficient for the weight of the vehicle.


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## mlong1 (Dec 6, 2007)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (Motorista)*

Hello!
I replaced the tires tow months ago with Michelins. I had the car aligned, and the cars is still wearing the outer edges of the front tires.
The shop had to replace the tie rods, the originals were no longer adjustable. After that was done, I began to notice some weird noises from the suspension particularly when putting the car in reverse while on an incline. The shop is telling me that the suspension bushings need to be replaced, and of course they are not covered by the Platinum VW warranty.
The assumption is that some of those bushings may be having an effect on the alignment quality. I would assume that when the car is aligned, the technician should be able to tell if the car is aligned or not. Any thoughts on that?
Anyway, my uneven tire wearing issue continues.











_Modified by mlong1 at 6:19 PM 11-9-2009_


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (mlong1)*

I'd be obliged if you'd report back after the bushings have been done. I have a suspension clunk that has been diagnosed as worn bushings, the solution apparently being a new "control arm", ~$650, and some other suspension part, ~$350. Having eyeballed the bushings, they definitely need to be replaced. The forward one (front left corner) is worn to the point where the rubber is starting to tear. What I don't understand is why, and if, the part they're calling the control arm needs to be replaced, rather than just changing the bushings.


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## mlong1 (Dec 6, 2007)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (invisiblewave)*

How many miles do you have on your car?


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (mlong1)*

63k. That one particular bushing is a bit of a mess. The service advisor said I could leave it for now and just put up with the occasional clunk, but having seen it myself, I don't think I'll be leaving it for long.
What I'm finding frustrating with the various "wear and tear" items is that they don't seem to last as long as they do on other, cheaper cars. Yes, it's a heavy car, yes that puts more strain on the suspension parts, wheel bearings, etc, but doesn't that mean those parts should have had a better specification when designed, especially on such a vehicle??


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (mlong1)*

My tyre wear, btw, is very even so far, despite the condition of the bushings. I put new tyres on it about a year ago, and that bushing has obviously been in a worn condition for some time.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (invisiblewave)*


_Quote, originally posted by *invisiblewave* »_What I'm finding frustrating with the various "wear and tear" items is that they don't seem to last as long as they do on other, cheaper cars... but doesn't that mean those parts should have had a better specification when designed, especially on such a vehicle??

I think it all depends on how comprehensivly you evaluate the vehicle. We have about 5 years of history to look at now, and this history shows that in North America, there are certain parts that we have identified as potentially needing replacement at or prior to 5 years in service. These include the left battery, wheel bearings, upper control arms in the front end, wiper arm mechanisms, and tire pressure sensors.
On the other hand, there are certain parts that I have never heard any reports of people replacing - such as exhaust systems, alternators (well, one report, but that might be shotgunning), major cabin heating and cooling components, and engine cooling system components (though many owners have elected to proactively replace the V8 engine water pump when the timing belt gets replaced).
So, on average, I think that the car is reliable. No model of vehicle is going to be bulletproof - each model of vehicle will eventually write its own history of "what needs replacing when". The trick is to evaluate the track record and ask yourself if *overall*, the car is a reliable vehicle. Remember, when you evaluate the annual maintenance costs of the car, you have to evaluate them in the context of what the car originally sold for, not what the used price of the car was.
Michael


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## cai (Mar 22, 2009)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (PanEuropean)*

Michael:
"that in North America, there are certain parts that we have identified as potentially needing replacement at or prior to 5 years in service. These include the left battery, wheel bearings, upper control arms in the front end, wiper arm mechanisms, and tire pressure sensors."
Excepting the battery, the MTBF of these items should be way beyond 5 years. Do you know if corrective measures were taken for the latter years, 2006, towards increasing the life expectancy of these items?
cai


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
I think it all depends on how comprehensivly you evaluate the vehicle.


I think it's how comprehensively you've swallowed the Kool Aid. I have a 23 year old 944 Turbo. Taking your list of "reliable" items on the Phaeton, the original exhaust system lasted until 4 years ago, it's still on the original alternator, and the only major cabin heating & cooling component it has ever needed is an a/c pipe a couple of months ago. It has had water pumps, which are changed along with the timing belt and it's had one new control arm, but that wasn't until a couple of years ago. The interesting thing is that many of the parts of it are VW/Audi!!! I don't think any of us here want to "talk down" the car, it's evident that we all love our vehicles, but this constant positive spin is frustrating to read, for me at least!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (cai)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cai* »_Excepting the battery, the MTBF of these items should be way beyond 5 years. 

It would certainly be nice to see these parts last longer than 5 years. What I was trying to get at, though, is that we need to look at the whole car in context. We have already (and quite easily) identified the parts that are prone to early replacement - meaning, replacement at or before 5 years in service. It will take us another 5 years to identify parts that typically last longer than the norm. We can't really make a call on the overall reliability of the vehicle until we have done that. 

_Quote, originally posted by *cai* »_Do you know if corrective measures were taken for the latter years, 2006, towards increasing the life expectancy of these items?

For some of the mentioned items, I am aware of design changes. For example, the wiper arm specification was changed, and the TPMS sensor design was upgraded by a whole generation. I doubt that much can be done about the battery simply because of the heavy loads that the vehicle puts on it, however, 5 years is quite a reasonable service life for an automobile battery. I don't know if VW has done anything about wheel bearings or upper control arms, but the fact that I don't know about it doesn't mean they have not done anything about it.
Keep in mind that these parts are shared with other platforms - notably the Bentley Continental series - so, it certainly is in VW's own self-interest to make improvements whenever an opportunity is identified.
Michael


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (adamkodish)*

Just to add a bit more information to the "can anyone other than dealers do alignment" debate, here are some photos I received from my friend who works in an independent bodyshop in Luton after I expressed skepticism that their Hunter machine could correctly align a Phaeton.









































_Modified by invisiblewave at 10:09 AM 11-11-2009_


_Modified by invisiblewave at 10:09 AM 11-11-2009_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Tyre Wear (pilgrim7777)*


_Quote, originally posted by *invisiblewave* »_Just to add a bit more information to the "can anyone other than dealers do alignment" debate...

Martin:
Go back and look at the posting date of my response on page 1 of this thread, where I wrote:

_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_The Phaeton (and Touareg as well) require a very sophisticated 4 wheel alignment tool ... There are, I think, only a handful of alignment tool manufacturers who make alignment equipment that meets the new VW specifications for the Phaeton...
A tool such as this is very expensive, I think somewhere in the range of USD $50K...

I wrote that in *June of 2005! * That's four and a half years ago! At that time, four wheel alignment machines were very rare, and Hunter (the manufacturer of the two VAG machines pictured on the first page of the thread) only made two machines that had the software required to do a Phaeton or Touareg - and both of those were high-end machines.
I note from your photos above that a newer, less expensive machine (the Hunter HawkEye shown in the photos you posted) is now available. The copyright date on Hunter's website indicates that this machine was brought to market in 2007 or later. It is not surprising that Hunter has the software with the required specifications for the Phaeton - they made both the two original high end (by that I mean more heavy duty, not necessarily better) machines for VW, and they also wrote the software for those machines.
I'm happy to see that a more affordable four-wheel alignment machine is now available, and also happy to see that it comes with trustworthy software that works with a Phaeton.
-----------------------
On a different matter, I'm not impressed by the 'finger' in the photos above. Please edit (crop) the photos to get rid of it. It doesn't fit with the tone of this forum. We're focused on technical solutions - which your information certainly provides - and we very studiously avoid dealer-bashing, which the finger in the above photos implies.
Thank you,
Michael


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: Tyre Wear (PanEuropean)*

I second this request (although I'm not a moderator of this great phorum) as I find this really offensive and gross.
P.

_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
On a different matter, I'm not impressed by the 'finger' in the photos above. Please edit (crop) the photos to get rid of it. It doesn't fit with the tone of this forum. We're focused on technical solutions - which your information certainly provides - and we very studiously avoid dealer-bashing, which the finger in the above photos implies.
Thank you,
Michael


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Tyre Wear (PanEuropean)*

The finger was for me, not the dealer. Delete the post if you find it too offensive.


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## Rowayton (May 29, 2004)

*Re: Tyre Wear (invisiblewave)*

In replying that some readers or Michael ".........find it [the finger in the post ] too offensive" the poster is admitting it was offensive. It makes no difference as to whom it was directed. While I was not personally offended I was disappointed in the lack of maturity the poster displayed in an attempt to be either sarcastic or funny. The poster can and should self edit the entire post and once again be a contributing player in this very useful forum. Simple lesson learned and with no hard feelings







.
Ron


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Tyre Wear (Rowayton)*

Yes, you're right, after posting it I realised I should have omitted the "too", since the finger was actually directed at me, by my friend, and it simply didn't occur to me that others would be so emotionally immature as to be offended by it. I was merely trying to add some more information to the discussion. And thanks for the instruction for how my behaviour should be!
Anyway, do what you like with it, I'm out! See ya!


_Modified by invisiblewave at 9:06 AM 11-12-2009_


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## mlong1 (Dec 6, 2007)

*Re: Tyre Wear (invisiblewave)*

This is a great forum, perhaps one of the best.
Behavior rules are important to keep the right decorum, but I feel that sometimes we preach the decorum rules to an extreme.
This is not a place of worship, a government agency or a corporation with all their rules and regulations.
It is a forum with guys and girls with a passion for a great vehicle.
Lets have fun and allow for some non-politically correct fun once in a while...








I was not offended by post Martin placed on this topic. I gathered it was an inside joke. I am not going to say I liked the gesture with the cordial finger, however, it is no worse that some of the totally *lame* jokes some of us have posted in the forum. 
Marcos 

_Modified by mlong1 at 9:11 PM 11-12-2009_


_Modified by mlong1 at 2:13 PM 11-13-2009_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Tyre Wear (mlong1)*

Hi Marcos:
I do appreciate what you have said above.
For me as a moderator, it is a very tricky job to try and maintain a certain 'tone' (or atmosphere, ambiance, mood, character, whatever) within the forum. Here's what the challenge is, as I see it from my perspective:
*1)* Left alone, car forums tend to degrade very quickly into anarchy. The loudest and most prolific posters will dominate, and almost without exception, the loudest and most prolific posters tend to be whiners. Please note that I don't for a second mean to imply that Martin's post was loud, prolific or whining, I'm making a comment about auto discussion forums in general. Go look in other car forums if you are not sure what I am talking about.
*2)* The consequence of point 1 above is that "bad money drives out the good", in other words, folks that you would like to converse with or folks that have interesting and useful things to contribute won't tolerate the environment described in point 1 above.
*3)* When there is a relatively low rate of new forum member entry, and when all forum members come from a similar demographic, a forum will set its own tone. By example, when the forum started up in 2003, there were very few Phaeton owners, and they all came from the same demographic, which was 'people who bought new cars that cost $70 to $100K'. Once again, I'm not trying to imply that that particular demographic is any better or any worse than any other demographic, I'm simply pointing out that in any environment that has a sense of 'collective oneness', everyone will tend to inherently conform to the same norms. Go visit any forum comprised of very like kinds for an example of this.
*4)* As participants in a group become more diverse, norms have to be established in order to maintain whatever the desired 'tone' is. For example, restaurants might establish a norm that says 'jacket and tie required', or, certain parts of a country (like Vancouver Island, where I live) might establish a norm that says 'jacket and tie forbidden' (seriously, no-one ever wears a jacket and tie to work on this island - you would get mercilessly razzed if you did).
*5)* Even with a diverse group of participants, if the entry rate of new participants is slow, the new participants soon pick up on the norms just from observing the behaviour of everyone else. Newcomers (to anything) will generally adapt to what they see is the prevailing behaviour of a group.
Right now, our forum is expanding exponentially in diversity as the turnover rate of the vehicles increases, and, for reasons I don't fully comprehend, we have had a very sharp increase in the number of new forum members joining every week. Old-timers who were around back in 2004 will remember when we used to think it was a great month when two new members joined the forum.
So.... 
This kind of leaves me in the (unsolicited) role of _maître d'hôtel_, rather than just chief archivist and compiler of the FAQ. I try my best to make new members aware of the unique tone of our forum (which, I think, is substantially different from other automotive forums), and from time to time, will make new members aware of our norms (which, by the way, are spelled out here: Phaeton Forum Objectives, Moderator Role).
Like everyone else, I'm not perfect, and like everyone else, I sometimes have trouble conveying nuance in an asynchronous text-only medium. Sometimes what I write gets interpreted by others in a way I didn't intend.
----------------------
Martin, I very much value your participation in the forum. You have contributed a heck of a lot in the short time that you have been here - the great thread about the vacuum actuator arms, the new information about the aftermarket Hunter alignment machine you posted above, and lots of other thoughtful posts.
I did not mean to give you offense when I asked you to edit the 'finger' out of the pictures above - I just wanted to get the finger out, because I was concerned it didn't fit with our collective goals for forum character, tone, and ambience. In retrospect, I probably should have sent you a private message, rather than posting my request in public. Please appreciate that my lack of finesse was not a result of any desire to be high-handed or autocratic, it was probably an unfortunate side-effect of having worked a 14 hour duty day yesterday, of which 7 hours was spent bouncing around in 'hardball IFR', low level turbulence, fog, light icing, and heavy traffic while carrying out certification flight tests. I was just baffed when I sat down at the computer last night.
Please accept my apologies for not sending you a private message, and please reconsider your decision to leave - all of us would benefit if you stayed.
Michael


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## mlong1 (Dec 6, 2007)

*Re: Tyre Wear (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
I very much appreciated your post as well.
I am sure that I speak not only for myself but for the majority of  group members when I say- THANK YOU!
Thank you for the dedication and work that you give this forum. I am amazed at the level of effort that you consistently provide. Your contribution is a major factor that makes this the *best* forum I know.
Without a doubt, you also bear the thankless role of patrolling the forum for undesirable behavior, and there again I only have praise for how well you handle the situations. I admire your patience. If I placed a fraction of your effort in this group, I would be incredibly protective of the tone and content as well. 
In hindsight, I think I should have sent you an IM instead of posting my statement last night. 
I hope we can all move forward and keep this great group growing.
Martin- I also hope to see your continued participation. I agree with Michael, I have found your contribution very valuable. You make guys like me look like slackers!









Marcos


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## the airbrush dude (Nov 14, 2009)

Ow for Christ sake dudes lighten up . we are all adults hear , fist of all let me just say those are my fat fingers in the pictures martin posted the other day , and anything i say or do are my thoughts and have no reflection on martin what so ever. 
So let me introduce myself before i leave for good , my name is heath and i was a V.A.G specialist for 8 years as well as working on porche through the karmen connection , before i went to work for porche for another 8 years , martin is a very good friend of mine and i enjoy the banter and friendship we have . being both English our humour is very similar .so when martin told me that this website told him that pharton (thats another joke by the way ) could only be aligned on a very expensive and rare 4 wheel alignment system at a great cost of around 300 bucks . i told him bollocks (thats English for no way dude ) i told him this is something we do as a matter of course . he did not believe me because this site had told him different . and he doubted that my machine would have the relevant data and tools . well i took them pics on my phone that same night and emailed them to him . he then put them on your site to try and save you guys some money . if you guys are happy being conned out of $300 for 1 hours work then carry on . and what’s the point of this site if it isn’t to help people?
Im confused you find a finger offensive! i find paying $300 to turn a spanner more offensive .
I would take offence at you calling my machine cheep but thats more your ignorance than mine . when buying the machine the cost was not an option , we just needed one that would do the job accurately . Because we was having nothing but trouble with the one we had . which by the way was the same one you had pictured , the same one i personally tossed in the skip .
My new machine is about a year old and technology does get cheaper 
Im glad you have apologised to martin , he is a very clever man with many resources at hand to draw from. he gives a lot without taking much at all and im sure this site needs people like him . 
On a personal note drop the my bat my ball attitude otherwise people will go and play in someone else’s sandbox 
And another note the guy who’s tires are wearing out. its not your driving its your toeing angle go get it sorted , and don’t pay $300 hee hee 
Also check they have the correct updates for the machine . a quick look at the old machine leaves me doubting 
Have good night people 
Lots of love 
The fat fingered airbrush dude 
Ps 
Sorry for getting you into trouble martin


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## jf4251 (Dec 15, 2009)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (invisiblewave)*

hi
Just wondering can anyone help with this. I am looking to get the wheel alignment specifications on an Irish registered VW Phaeton. The tyres are wearing and the irish dealerships can not get me the correct specifications.
Thanks
Aisling


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## HunterST (Dec 11, 2008)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (jf4251)*

I've got a small problem, hoping for some good advice. Brought my baby down to National Tire and Battery today to have my TPMS sensors moved from my stock wheels to my new Bentley wheels, and the machine tore a hole in the sidewall of one of my "new" tires when the tech was attempting to remove it from the wheel. The shop manager blamed it on the tires and said the bead had "bonded" to the wheel because they'd been in storage, and wasn't willing to replace the tire. After some heated debate and me asking to speak to the owner he finally relented and ordered me a new (identical) tire: Pirelli P-Zero Rosso. Interestingly, he said the "bentley version" is the same load rating as the "bmw version" but technically different. Whatever... I suspect the BMW version is a 101y vs. the 105y for the bentley.
Anyway, here's my question: these tires have gone about 5k miles (according to the previous owner) and have about 7/32" of tread left. A new tire will have 9/32". Is it a problem for me to have 2/32" more tread on one of my tires? Should I be asking him to buy 2? Or 4? Or is that a nominal enough difference that I shouldn't worry?


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (HunterST)*

It depends on how often you change your toothbrush. If you change it every month, then yes, the 2/32" makes a difference.










_Modified by invisiblewave at 1:40 PM 2-10-2010_


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (HunterST)*

One other piece of "advice"! Next time, go to Discount Tire. One TPMS sensor went out shortly after my tyres were changed, so I assumed it was something to do with what they'd done to it. After some "discussion", the manager agreed to order a new one for me and fitted it, even though he knew damn well that it wasn't anything they'd done. TPMS was fine for about another month, then the batteries went in the other sensors as well.


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## HunterST (Dec 11, 2008)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (invisiblewave)*

New tire scheduled to arrive today. I called my local Discount Tire and they were super helpful, agreed that the ripped tire was probably caused by lack of finesse by the operator.
So I'm going to have NTB install the new tire back onto the wheel, and leave the bentley tpms's on there - I believe from looking at them and shopping for replacements on ebay that they are the exact same sensors as the stock phaeton sensors.
I suspect my TMPS Fault error is being caused by the pressure differential between the new 275's (45 psi) and the old Michelin spare (35 psi).


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: Chopped Front Tires (HunterST)*

If you check the Beru site, or do a web search, there's a list of which sensor goes with which model. From memory, I think the Phaeton is the 007, but it might be 001. I seem to remember that there's a difference in the sensor between Phaeton model years as well, so it may well be that the Bentley ones don't work. I ordered some from Belle Tire on Ebay then discovered the Beru list and realised I'd ordered the wrong ones, although Belle were good enough to switch them before sending them out. It might be best to check now if you're able to eyeball one of them, I think the model number is stamped on the sensor. I think I paid $68 per sensor and Discount Tire fitted them for about $40.


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## FINGERS20 (Mar 15, 2010)

I have had major tyre wear/alignment problems throughout the 4000miles I have done in my 3.0 TDI. Alignment was off from new and despite repeated requests I was assured there was no problem. This came to light at 12000miles when the excessively uneven front tyre wear meant tracking was checked and proven to be off. VW coughed up for two tyres but the same thing happened at first MOT . Again the track was off and again I needed new tyres! Much argument with VW meant that fee was waived but it cost me 4 new tyres. They tried to blame me for driving over rough roads and not avoiding traffic calming speed bumps. I ask you!! It's not a Fiat 500. 
Don't know just quite what is going on. Suggest you keep a close eye on tyre wear and rotate wheels regularly. Any doubts then I suggest paying for a proffesional alignment by VW.


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## brosen (Jun 21, 2009)

VW dealer (Westside) is busy for almost 3 more weeks and I have to do an alignment to my Phaeton as soon as possible, the car is pulling left. 

I called a third party shop in Minneapolis (Samaritan Tire), they are very professional, they installed my current tires and TPMS sensors. They said they have a computerized equipment that will be able to properly align the Phaeton (I asked for them many times), they mentioned they can control CASTER, CAMBER, TOE OUT, TOE IN and THRUST ANGLE, those variables seems to be the same variables as the VW VAS equipment.

Any concern regarding an alignment outside the VW dealership netwrok ?, they provide 12,000 miles / 1 year of warranty as well, thanks


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

FINGERS20 said:


> I have had major tyre wear/alignment problems throughout the 4000miles I have done in my 3.0 TDI. Alignment was off from new and despite repeated requests I was assured there was no problem. This came to light at 12000miles when the excessively uneven front tyre wear meant tracking was checked and proven to be off. VW coughed up for two tyres but the same thing happened at first MOT . Again the track was off and again I needed new tyres! Much argument with VW meant that fee was waived but it cost me 4 new tyres. They tried to blame me for driving over rough roads and not avoiding traffic calming speed bumps. I ask you!! It's not a Fiat 500.
> Don't know just quite what is going on. Suggest you keep a close eye on tyre wear and rotate wheels regularly. Any doubts then I suggest paying for a proffesional alignment by VW.


Judging by the discussions we've been having for some time now, it looks as if this isn't an alignment problem, it appears to be a characteristic of the vehicle that it wears the front tyres very excessively on the outside edges. Last time mine went in, the dealer put 52lbs in the fronts and 46lbs in the rears to try to alleviate it. It does appear to be helping a bit, although I haven't done a lot of mileage since so it's hard to tell for sure. Interesting that they found your tracking off twice though. Perhaps there's something that regularly causes the tracking to get out of alignment??


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

brosen said:


> VW dealer (Westside) is busy for almost 3 more weeks and I have to do an alignment to my Phaeton as soon as possible, the car is pulling left.
> 
> I called a third party shop in Minneapolis (Samaritan Tire), they are very professional, they installed my current tires and TPMS sensors. They said they have a computerized equipment that will be able to properly align the Phaeton (I asked for them many times), they mentioned they can control CASTER, CAMBER, TOE OUT, TOE IN and THRUST ANGLE, those variables seems to be the same variables as the VW VAS equipment.
> 
> Any concern regarding an alignment outside the VW dealership netwrok ?, they provide 12,000 miles / 1 year of warranty as well, thanks


I have a friend who works in an independent body shop who says they align Phaetons and that it's really no different from any other vehicle. I've posted shots he gave me of the computer screen showing the Phaeton listed with the specs, along with a digitus impudicus that some of the more delicate flowers here objected to.


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## adamkodish (Mar 5, 2006)

pilgrim7777 said:


> Does anybody have any idea of tyre wear mileage life, how miles before replacement because I have a 2mm difference across the surface of the tyre, with wear on the outside front tyres after 8500 miles. at this rate of wear they will need replacing at around 16000 miles.Can I just add most of my mileage is motorways, no dragging away from the lights, no heavy braking, no apex hugging under full acceleration. Comments would helpful.


 I just got 16K miles from a set of 235/50/18 101XL Kumho KU31s on the front wheels of my V10. 
Both inside edges were badly worn and the central part of the treads had about 4mm left.

The alignment was within specs when they were first fitted.
I'm getting the alignment checked (and fixed) tomorrow.

How does this wear rate compare to other V10s?

Adam


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## gartracescort (Apr 4, 2010)

A bit better than mine, but I enjoy the performance a lot. I run 52 psi front otherwise they get wrecked (46 rear too as previously posted). 

Approx 30 miles per day on lanes, A roads and town, with different stuff at weekends. I use a great local guy in town and buy part-worns (have done for the last 15 years) for pennies. He knows his stuff, offers a great warranty (3 in this time with no quibble) as he gets them from Germany twice per month in containers and he checks them all himself. £63 per corner fitted and they are heavy duty rated too, unlike the ones it came on when I bought it. Mind you, those didn't give a problem other than to wear out a bit fast. They were at 35psi and felt fine, but the outside edges didn't like it at all. 

I don't worry about tyres thank goodness!


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## adamkodish (Mar 5, 2006)

adamkodish said:


> I just got 16K miles from a set of 235/50/18 101XL Kumho KU31s on the front wheels of my V10.
> Both inside edges were badly worn and the central part of the treads had about 4mm left.
> 
> The alignment was within specs when they were first fitted.
> ...


 To follow on from my previous post, the alignment check showed the front right had too much toe, which is consistent with the additionally bad wear on the inside of the tyre.

I found a great outfit near Brentwood, Essex to check and correct the alignment using the usual Hunter equipment and the cost is far lower than other specialists I've used before. PM me for more details.

Adam


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

*Gold plated alignment*

Put the winter tyres on on Sunday. Noticed that the summer tyres had a little uneven wear on the front shoulders - which probably means the tracking isn't quite right.

Rang the VW agent I normally use and was aghast to find that for them to check the tracking would be two hours labour and £210.

I was a little surprised... and made them check.... definitely two hours labour.

Is there something odd about how the wheel alignment is done on Phaetons, or even other modern cars, that entails this amount of work.....

Be grateful for views!

Thanks

M


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Yeah, a full alignment is expensive. The warranty paid for my wheel bearing, but not the $350 for the alignment that goes with it. I'm not sure the alignment helps much with the shoulder wear on the fronts, I've always had that problem and it's showing signs that the alignment didn't make much difference to it, although it's hard to say since the car's been at the dealer more than it's been in my garage since then.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

n968412L said:


> ...was aghast to find that for them to check the tracking would be two hours labour and £210.
> 
> I was a little surprised... and made them check.... definitely two hours labour.
> 
> Is there something odd about how the wheel alignment is done on Phaetons, or even other modern cars, that entails this amount of work.....


It takes about two hours to complete a Phaeton wheel alignment. A machine capable of doing a 4 wheel alignment is needed.

I am going to guess that the cost you were quoted (£210) is slightly higher than the normal cost of two hours of labour, because the VW dealer is attempting to amortize the rather high cost of the machine, and cover the expenses associated with needing to maintain a dedicated service bay for this machine only.

See the first page of this thread for photos and more details about the four wheel alignment process.

Michael


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Michael - thanks for picking this up into a useful related thread. Much appreciated.

M


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## stefanuk (Jul 7, 2010)

If it helps, i had my wheel alignment completed at a VW dealership for £120, which if iremember rightly did take around 2 hours, however the first 2 dealers quoted £210. 
I'm sure you're also aware that during an alignment that all the suspension parts/bushes are checked for wear/damage as otherwise the adjustements would either just go out of spec again or they would not be able to adjust correctly.

Stefan


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

Then, there is also the additional problem that if your car is equipped with ACC or ADR, wheel alignment may have an influence on the alignment of the radar...

If everything goes well, the radar should still be precise in telling when a car crosses the lane towards your lane or leaves your lane to a different lane.

Beyond a certain threshold, the radar needs to be adjusted as well, and it can become a pain in the ...


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## conmoto (Jul 8, 2009)

*Camber - Another Set of Tires Cupped*

2 sets of Continental DWS tires in 30k miles. I'm not happy. Here's what I know: 

The car is aligned...TWICE 
Suspension components have been checked by two VW dealers and one independent shop 
Noise (due to cupping) begins about 2k miles after the first rotation (I rotate at 4k) 
I think the noise os mostly from the rear 
Nearly all of my road time is done on the Interstate in a straight line 

The independent shop adjusted the rear to 1 neg vs stock camber of 1.25 neg, but he said not much could be done with the front. Does anyone know why the front isn't as adjustable as the rear? 

I understand why many Euro cars have so much negative camber, and yes, the cars were designed to run on those specs, but I refuse to believe I am placing myself in danger with .25 degree. 

Can I prolong the cupping if I increase the PSI slightly? Assuming the wear is worse in front, should I not rotate my tires and just replace the fronts? I don't know if the wear happens in front and I don't hear it until they're in back. 

This is a stretch, but if the car is aligned in the lowered (VAGCOM adjusted to Euro spec, 2004 only) and I drive it in the dial adjusted raised position, will it decrease negative camber? Someone must know what I'm talking about. 

I'm still in love with this car, but so frustrated with the amount of rubber I'm going through. I can't imagine dealing with the cupping noise for 40k miles. Before I trash my current tires I'm increasing the PSI to see if wear evens out a little. 

Thoughts?


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## conmoto (Jul 8, 2009)

*Engine Cradle Causing Cupping?*

The Autobarn in Chicago suggested getting the engine cradle assessed if all other suspension components are fine. Does anyone have experience with this?


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

Conmoto, 

Something is definitely not right. You'll have to do a serious fine tooth comb type of inspection on every suspension compoment. Rubber that may appear to be visually ok will most definitely deform or perform out of spec when under dynamic loads. I am a firm believer that a car needs to be settled and never lifted while an alignment is performed. It should also be aligned with the whatever base ride height you set it at. eg., you wouldn't align the car at the highest height setting. Another issue that could contribute to your isssue is that if any of the suspension components have been replaced, they may have been torqued when the car was off the ground. Some components need to be torqued at its static state such as if the car was on the loaded on the ground. These are my opinions and I make them do it when I get an alignment on any car. Hope this helps. 

Damon


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

I may be mistaken, but I believe that the VW multilink front suspension is sometimes affected by alignment problems with the subframe. It might be worth seeing if you can have a dealer check whether it's within spec on your car. 

As for torquing of suspension components, the only ones that need to be torqued under load are the two lower suspension arms. 

Harry


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Archival Note: * More information about wheel alignment here - Ride Quality 17" vs 18" and Altered Alignment Update 

Michael 

_Also, photos re-hosted..._


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## Kuwaity (Apr 2, 2004)

Hi all 

I don't think that the phaeton eats tires fast but the problem with the phaeton is that the front toe quickly changes after alignment. 

In my case, I changed the factory fitted tires at around 25,000km ( after 5 years) and there was no sign of wear in the in side. 

Second set of tires showed sever wear in the front after only 20,000 km. I changed the tires then sent it to the dealer for alignment. It was clear that the excessive toe in was the cause of the tire in the front ( 0.54'. Total toe). 

This week found that the front tires are worn in the inside after 25,000 km of 90% highway driving. I checked the alignment and the front toe was (-0.10 total) which is toe out ! 

Now it is at 0.24' total toe in after alignment and i'm going to drive for 2000km and check again to see how quickly the front toe changes while driving and the suspensions components are fine. 

We need more information about the tire wear and whether the newer phaetons are suffering from tire wear or not. 

I'll keep updating ....


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## Kuwaity (Apr 2, 2004)

Update:

After around a month and approx. 2000 km, the left toe change again from 0.12' to 0.22'. that is more toe-in than the spec.

I found that the front toe is affected with rough roads, bumps and potholes. I'm not sure if new Phaetons are affected like old ones. Any ideas?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hi Ahmad:

I wonder if perhaps some of the parts in the front end of your car are wearing out, and that is why the car is not "holding" the calibration that is set when you have the wheels aligned.

I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the geometry of the front end of the car, or the various parts involved, but I have seen posts from other users that describe certain front end parts wearing out - most especially parts that have rubber components - here are some links to discussions that might give you further food for thought:

Replacing front Antiroll (aka Sway) Bar Droplinks
Suspension - Control Arm Replacement

Michael


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## Kuwaity (Apr 2, 2004)

Hi Michael,

Yes probably the whole car is wearing out, I always wanted a new Phaeton although my car is running fine at the moment. The only problem is that I’m going to build a house which will cost a lot and a new Phaeton is not cheap. I should wait a little more before replacing my Phaeton.


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## Kuwaity (Apr 2, 2004)

More info. about tire wear


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## AdW14 (Jan 24, 2014)

*Allignment*

The tires we took off had some uneven wear so we figured we better get an allignment. We called the base auto hobby and they wont do it. We called les schwab and they dont do it but recommended a foreign auto repiair. I asked on the pnw regional forums and someone suggested the dealer. Hubby just called dealer and they said sixty bucks for frontend and they will give an estimate on rear after seeing what it takes to reprogram computer. The dealership recommended is 60 miles away. The foreign auto is 30. The foreign auto has good reviews...but he said he hadnt seen a phaeton. The foreign auto said he would check it and it may not need anything...but max would be 130 bucks....we scheduled for next wednesday but now wonder if we should just take to the dealer...


What do you experts recommend? Hubby is trying to fix the wiper and get the vag com all figured out so I figured I would ask you guys for him. We aren't driving it so it is no bid deal to wait until wednesday.

Thanks
Angie


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

A full 4 wheel alignment at a dealer is about $350.


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

Any place that has the Hunter alignment machine and computer can do it. Adjusting the car doesn't require any special tools or computer interfaces. The Hunter computer tells the tech exactly what to do. I've seen the script when my tire shop works on my car. The only Phaeton magic things it asks for is for the tech to raise and lower the car once using the normal button the driver uses, just to force it to level itself, and then do a quick measurement of the wheel to fender to verify the result. Other than that it's no more complex than aligning my Passat.

Jason


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## AdW14 (Jan 24, 2014)

Great. Thanks. I saw that machine in the TOC...we will ask tomorrow to see if the shop we have an appt at has the machine. A guy over on the pacific northwest region said he got his toureg done at the vw dealer in post falls for 70 bucks...that sounds too good to be true, lol.. mmayve he just needed the front.

Thanks again. Trying to get it sorted out....plus working on our antique cars and remodelling...ugh...what did we get ourselves into??? Just kidding...we love the car and know it will be great when we get all the kinks worked out. We really appreciate the help.


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## snapdragon (Aug 8, 2006)

The front toe adjusters are often seized and difficult to heat without damaging adjacent rubber parts and it *may* just be worth replacing the tie rod ends as a prerequisite of the process. 
Rear axle toe adjusters are usually seized but much more room to break them free.


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## cai (Mar 22, 2009)

I am not sure about the $350.00 cost. My dealer charges me about $119.00 and I believe it is for all four wheels. Make sure that the car is in jack-up position. 

From this forum I have gathered that shops with the Hunter and Corghi alignment machines can do the job properly. If possible, wait until the pot-hole season is over before doing the alignment.

cai


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## Cantrellc123 (Aug 5, 2012)

I took one of my P's to my closest VW Dealer and once there after telling me no problem for an alignment over the phone informed me they could not do it due to the wheels on the car, stock OEM wheels at that.

Is this valid at all or were they THAT ignorant?

Cantrell


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## Stephen weaver (Jan 24, 2014)

*Wheels*



Cantrellc123 said:


> I took one of my P's to my closest VW Dealer and once there after telling me no problem for an alignment over the phone informed me they could not do it due to the wheels on the car, stock OEM wheels at that.
> 
> Is this valid at all or were they THAT ignorant?
> 
> Cantrell


We are taking our phaeton (with 20 inch wheels) to the v.w. , they have the correct machine, so time will tell! I'll post about our trip.
Stephen


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## AdW14 (Jan 24, 2014)

Thanks for the info. The dealer says they have the machine and it should be 70 bucks...we will see. 

Sad thing is here around Spokane it is always pothole season...lol Luckily we live 30 miles out on a good hwy and dont go to town much. A lot of our miles are on dirt roads, just crusing around...and right now they are nice and packed with snow.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

conmoto said:


> 2 sets of Continental DWS tires in 30k miles. I'm not happy. Here's what I know:
> 
> The car is aligned...TWICE
> Suspension components have been checked by two VW dealers and one independent shop
> ...


It's a bit late to be posting a reply to this question, however, I just noticed the question today. The answer - specific to the Continental Extreme Contact DW and DWS tires - can be found at post #349, on page 10 of the Tires - discussion about choosing replacement tires for a Phaeton discussion. There is a fair amount of information about the Conti Extreme Contact tires on pages 10 and 11 of that thread.

Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

I had a wheel alignment carried out on my car this week, using the same machine as shown in post #2 on the first page of this discussion. I was pleasantly surprised to find that only a few minor tweaks were required to bring everything back into specification. The right rear wheel was a bit out of spec, and a small adjustment was needed to one setting only for both of the front wheels.

The report, printed from the Hunter Alignment Tool (VAS 1944B), is shown below. If you have a wheel alignment carried out at your VW dealer, do ask for a colour printout of the alignment results. It is interesting to look at, and gives you a reference point for problems that may come up in the future.

Michael

*VAS 1944B Alignment Report - Michael's Car
*


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## JCJ (Nov 26, 2013)

If you want your alignment doing properly dont trust a VW dealer - they will do the minimum to get your £150/£200. You need to get your camber equal either side, otherwise it will pull to one side. You need to move the subframe to get the result below. The car now tracks straight. Ninemeister set up new BAC Mono trackcars from the factory and I can highly recommend them.

Best Regards
John


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

John - that's helpful.... I've had V10 done 3 times now by VW... I think it was worse after the first....

The front tyre scrubbing has xferred from right to left....

Never been convinced... so my try Ninemeister sometime...

Ta

M


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

My steering wheel is still off-centre after three attempts to get it right at the dealer.....


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## JCJ (Nov 26, 2013)

n968412L said:


> John - that's helpful.... I've had V10 done 3 times now by VW... I think it was worse after the first....
> 
> The front tyre scrubbing has xferred from right to left....
> 
> ...


Hi Mike,

I had it done at Lookers in Blackburn before Xmas and it still pulled slightly - over the next few weeks it started taking the edge of the outside of the OSF tyre. The Ninemeister guys said that camber on VWs needs to be evened up by moving the subframe. So I bought a set of subframe bolts (£35 ish) which need replacing once undone and got them to move the subframe. I think that dealers cant be bothered with the hassle - as long as it meets the tolerance on the machine then its OK, but the VW spec allows 30' of difference in camber between both sides.

Ninemeister have two workshops - the one with the alignment kit is actually behind the Holiday Inn at Woolston. 12 Chesford Grange, Warrington WA1 4RE
01925 242342. It was £144 inc VAT.

Regards
John


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## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Finally I decided to change all tires on my ROW 4.2 V8. Zeroed on Perelli and went for the CINTURATO P7. The previous tires were Westlake, complete waste of space in this universe. Once the Ps were on the P, it was night and day difference in driving and corners etc. 

Did an alignment (Hoffman machine), here are the results.










The highlight of the day came when the alignment technician said "*This is a Bentley*". 

Regards,

Salah


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## Kuwaity (Apr 2, 2004)

Hi Bo Jarrah,

Mabrook for the new set, looks neat.

These tires are among the best summer touring tires I've ever used, except that they create a loud buzzy noise on some tarmacs. Strange. 

However, i have a certain belief that VW specs the wrong tires for (at least for LWB V8, 2350 kg car) the Phaeton with 235/55 17 99W or Y tires. 
They simply cannot handle the dynamic weight of the car and therefore won't last more than 30,000 km.

After the forth set of (99 load) tire failures with always full load pressure, I've decided to switch to 103 XL rated tires. Currently using Michelin Primacy HP 235/55 R17 103W XL and never been happier. Actually I did so many hard miles and they became almost bald and looking forward for new similar set. 


Here is my tires history:

- Factory fit Bridgestone RE 030 (235/55 17 99Y), failed after around 20,000 km.

- Exact OEM RE030 replacement, failure after around 25,000km.

- Pirelli P7 235/55 17 99W, failed after 20,000km mostly on Dubai's smooth motorways with full load pressure and low loads. 

- Michelin Primacy HP 235/55 R17 99W. About 25,000km.

All looks almost like new but the rubber was cracked all over with internal damage which causes sudden air loss. 

Current set: Michelin Primacy HP 235/55 R17 103W XL. Still looks OK with no cracks or damage but became hard (dry) and nearly bald after intentionally aggressive driving.


I hope this help Phaeton owners when deciding new 17in tires.


BTW, the alignment better to be done with the engine running just to avoid camber change when the car changes its ride height after shutting off engine.


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## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Salam Ahmad,

Nice to have heard from you and wish you an early Ramadan Mubarak. Interesting take on the load! Of course the ones I took were 99, will see what happens and report. I tell you those Ps are an amazing upgrade to the ones were put on by the previous owner, absolute night and day.

Yes indeed, I noticed the technician turned the engine on in the middle of the process. Nice people at Perelli Center.

Always value the advice of the local dean. 

Regards,

Salah


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## trogdor1138 (Apr 13, 2015)

For what it's worth, I'm currently at the VW dealer having new Continental ExtremeContact DWS 255/45R18 103Y fitted. The car had Continental ContiProContact 255/45R18 99Y fitted when I bought it and they are absolutely shredded and unevenly worn. It's of course impossible to say which is really to blame, whether lack of maintenance by previous owners or improper tires, but I don't think I would fit anything under the 103Y load rating.

-Brandon


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I thought the specification was for a 103 load rating? Mine also had Pirellis with a load rating of 99 fitted when I bought it, and the tread literally "chunked" off within a couple of months. Pirelli gave me 50% of the cost of the tyres back and I had new tyres fitted with a 103 rating (which Pirelli don't/didn't do). Since then I've been fitting Conti DWS, they're good and they also come with a 50k mileage warranty, which means when I go back with a fully worn set after 15k, I get another 50% discount off the next set.


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## Kuwaity (Apr 2, 2004)

That's my car's fuel cap sticker. The 17's are 99 rated.


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## trogdor1138 (Apr 13, 2015)

Kuwaity said:


> That's my car's fuel cap sticker. The 17's are 99 rated.


What pressures do/did you usually run with the 99's? Did you change it depending on load or just run a usual pressure? Just curious about your experience


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Oh yeah, I forget people still run 17 inches! I don't think upping the load rating will help with longevity though, the longest mine ever last is 15k, even with regular rotations.

The wear on my current set is much better than before now I'm running them at the pressures mentioned on your sticker (36/33 psi), rather than those on the US sticker.


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

Love my 17". Toyed with the idea of 16"... but rumour has it they only fit the two wheel drive version because of brake caliper size....


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I have nothing against 17s, just unusual to see them these days. I run 17 inch rims on my 951.


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## Kuwaity (Apr 2, 2004)

trogdor1138 said:


> What pressures do/did you usually run with the 99's? Did you change it depending on load or just run a usual pressure? Just curious about your experience


After years of driving, I have sticked to 40 psi all-round. The car mostly lightly loaded. 

A side note, there is actually no benefit of increasing the pressure beyond 36 psi (for standard load tires) since the maximum load handling is achived at 36psi then it saturates, the increase in pressure alters the handling only. 

Extra load (XL), or reinforced tires achieve Max load at 42 psi though. 

I prefer the hi-profile tires for everyday driving since you get better ride, you can get "touring" tires (not sports tires), and they have less chance of damage when you hit a path hole.


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## trogdor1138 (Apr 13, 2015)

I've had the Conti DWS on for a day now and the difference from the old ones is night and day. I need new control arms, as mentioned in another thread, but the road noise is still greatly diminished. I believe I've seen other recommendations for this tire, and I would completely agree.

I also feel better having a XL load tire fitted.


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## JCJ (Nov 26, 2013)

*Do I need to replace all 4 tyres if just replacing the fronts?*

Hi Everyone,

My car needs a new set of front tyres to pass the MOT. Should I be replacing the rears as well? - they have about 2mm on them according to the garage. Will it have a negative effect on the transmission if I dont change them?

Your advice much appreciated.

Cheers
John


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## bobster1969 (Apr 18, 2015)

JCJ said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> My car needs a new set of front tyres to pass the MOT. Should I be replacing the rears as well? - they have about 2mm on them according to the garage. Will it have a negative effect on the transmission if I dont change them?
> 
> ...


From what I have read the phaeton benefits from 4 tyres when replacing then it is better to get a rotation going every 6 months to keep tyre wear even. 
This is more expensive but if you can get a deal for 4 sometimes discounts can be had from UK suppliers. 
On a side note I also read that the differ ant tyres with noise ratings can make a big difference on this car so the cheapest option not always the best option. 
I'm a newbie here so just going off what I have read.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Yes, you need to do all four, or risk the differential!


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

JCJ said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> My car needs a new set of front tyres to pass the MOT. Should I be replacing the rears as well? - they have about 2mm on them according to the garage. Will it have a negative effect on the transmission if I dont change them?
> 
> ...


Hi John- there are different schools of thought about the effect on the transmission of different tyre sizes. Clearly having different rolling radius at either end of the vehicle means the centre diff has to do a bit of work... and continuously... but that's why it's there. Absent a clear and definitive statement from an appropriate VW professional mechanical engineer (as opposed to hand book arse covering warnings) I remain unshakeable in my belief that a 7mm difference in diameter will not affect the transmission. I can't say those of different opinion are wrong, I just don't have that much evidence, and I would agree that it's undesirable.

On the other hand... for other reasons, I've always rotated the tyres to keep the wear even- so I'm not putting my money where my mouth is. 

Regards

Mike


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## JCJ (Nov 26, 2013)

Hi Mike,

I chickened out and replaced all four. There is a slight imbalance in the fronts so I need to get that sorted. Hope you are well.

Regards
John


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## JCJ (Nov 26, 2013)

Just had my alignment done again, this time by moving the subframe. Camber should be equal both sides, not just within the tolerance allowed by the machine. This isn’t quite perfect then.


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## JCJ (Nov 26, 2013)

Cost of the subframe bolts and alignment 


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Wow, they changed the bolts!! I've had mine aligned numerous times by the dealer, and I've yet to be charged for the single-use bolts.....


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## JCJ (Nov 26, 2013)

invisiblewave said:


> Wow, they changed the bolts!! I've had mine aligned numerous times by the dealer, and I've yet to be charged for the single-use bolts.....


Bolts are part of the VIP service! 


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I've always chosen to believe that I'm special and they threw the bolts in for free.....


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