# Blue Smoke at Idle, Lots of $$ spent already... need help



## NHVeeDub (May 3, 2004)

Thanks. 

I have a 1997 12v VR6 running 6 pounds of boost that's blowing blue smoke at idle (not under load). I currently have the car at a reputable shop to fix the smoking, and a few other items. They want to replace the turbo, which I already did once to fix the smoking. I'm hoping to get a few ideas here for some other things to have them look at before I green light the work.... some background: 

I had a simple turbo kit on the car, and decided to get the block rebuilt so I could add more boost at a later date and feel relatively confident the car would be reliable One block rebuild later (among a lot of other things) the car is smoking at idle. I added an oil pressure restricter on the oil inlet to the turbo - no dice. Gave up, brought it to this shop, they recommended a new turbo thinking the turbo seals were shot. Bought a brand new Garrett, they dropped it in, still smoking. They recommended a valve job (they had not done the head rebuild) and a catch can. I parked the car at this point.... fast forward two years, I bring the car back to get everything working so I can drive the thing.... valve seals are fine, catch can installed.... still smoking. Recommend new turbo. 

What other things can cause blue smoke at idle I can have them check - assuming they haven't checked already? 

Vacuum clogs? 
Dirty air filter / restricted air pressure at idle? 
Clogged oil drain? 
My oil pressure gauge reads anywhere from zero to 100+... even with the inlet restricter, could there be an oil pressure problem? 
Is it possible the few miles on the turbo without a catch can damaged the turbo enough to make it smoke again? 

Thanks again - any ideas much appreciated.... will be chatting with the shop in the morning to see what they've done, and what options I have:thumbup:


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## dubbinmk2 (Jan 15, 2008)

your engine is shot!!!!!! who ever rebuilt the engine sucked at it.... time to take it all apart


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## Bthornton10 (Apr 27, 2008)

Check your compression.


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## NHVeeDub (May 3, 2004)

*No smoke under load*

Good thought on compression.... this shop rebuilt the bottom end, and there's no smoke under load. I could have them do a compression test.... 

I have a hard time believing 'the engine is shot' since this thing pulls balls out, no problem. Idle is smooth, starts right up.... only problem is smoke on idle. 

Any thoughts on vacuum being the culprit?:thumbup:


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## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

turbo seals or valve seals, separate the turbo from the xhaust manifold and start the engine, if it doesn't smoke you need a new turbo seals, chek the back house on the turbo on the down pipe side, take the down pipe loose and look inside the back house for oil.


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## extremsplvr6 (Mar 26, 2003)

zwogti said:


> turbo seals or valve seals, separate the turbo from the xhaust manifold and start the engine, if it doesn't smoke you need a new turbo seals, chek the back house on the turbo on the down pipe side, take the down pipe loose and look inside the back house for oil.


 X2..


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## NHVeeDub (May 3, 2004)

*...in progress....*

Turbo is coming off for inspection.... stay tuned....:thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

the first thing that should have been down from the get-go after installing the restrictor...would be a leak-down and a compression test. /thread.


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## NumberOne 2nd2none (Jan 30, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> the first thing that should have been down from the get-go after installing the restrictor...would be a leak-down and a compression test. /thread.


Very true! I think a leak-down test will answer all his questions :thumbup:


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## dubbin95 (Mar 18, 2007)

NumberOne 2nd2none said:


> Very true! I think a leak-down test will answer all his questions :thumbup:


 x2 :thumbup:


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## toy_vw (Feb 11, 2006)

if the leak down test comes up good...most likely culprit could be the valve stem seals....they tend to show anger under no load high vacuum situations...


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## Little Golf Mklll (Nov 27, 2007)

toy_vw said:


> if the leak down test comes up good...most likely culprit could be the valve stem seals....they tend to show anger under no load high vacuum situations...


The neoprene ones are pure crap, they never sealed right for me:thumbdown:


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## NHVeeDub (May 3, 2004)

*I mentioned the vacuum issue to the shop....*

Honestly, my vote is for crappy valve seals. 

The car smokes after it's been idling for a few minutes, it does not smoke on start-up or under throttle. 

The lack of smoke under throttle, plus the bottom end being rebuilt by this shop, leads me to believe the problem is not piston related. 

The lack of smoke at start-up leads the shop to believe it's not the valve seals, which is why they believe the problem is in the turbo seals.

Lastly, I had the head rebuilt by a low-end, non-VW specialty place, and I just have a feeling they went el-cheapo, and likely didn't know what they were doing.:laugh:

Once my shop looks at the turbo, and realizes the problem is not in the turbo-which is what I expect, is there any kind of valve-seal test I can have them do? I read somewhere you can check the vacuum cause by removing the oil dipstick and seeing if the smoke continues under idle... sounds suspect to me, but I'm no mechanic. If the seals do get replaced, I'm gathering there are grades of replacement seals - what brand/variety/type should I be looking for?

Thanks all, much appreciated


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## MarcoVR6SC (May 3, 2003)

You can easily check if your pistons have too much blow-by; when the engine is idling remove the oil filler cap, put your hand on the oil filler neck, and check if you have pressure coming out when removing your hand(there shouldn’t be any, also if you see a lot of smoke coming out of it, then you have a piston ring seal problem).

Checking the valve stem seals isn’t really possible without removing them, or at least removing the intake runner. When idling and the smoke begins, you should stop the engine, remove the intake runner and look for oil in the intake ports, and be sure it doesn’t come from the turbo by looking at the compressor outlet plumbing.


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

NumberOne 2nd2none said:


> Very true! I think a leak-down test will answer all his questions :thumbup:


Unfortunately it will not. 

Oil burning is one of the hardest things to diagnose. Leak down is only used to isolate the cause of a failed compression test. Cars that burn oil often have good compression.

Like was said above. Valve seals or turbo. Was the head rebuilt and do you have cams? Bigger cams will often crush the valve seals if new guides were installed.

Where is the turbo draining to? Is it clear? How high is your oil level?


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

Easiest and cheapest "try" if you cant figure it out are valve seals. Some labor, but the head doesn't have to come off and the seals are cheap.

Much cheaper than a turbo or bottom end work.


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## NHVeeDub (May 3, 2004)

slcturbo said:


> Was the head rebuilt and do you have cams? Where is the turbo draining to? Is it clear? How high is your oil level?


The head was 'remanufactured,' which supposedly means rebuilt. I'm running stock cams. The turbo is a gravity drain straight to the oil reservoir - it's a hell of a big tube. I have asked them to check the drain, which they state is clear. The oil level - when I had the car - was never too high. The shop did an an oil change for me during the current visit, and I'm certain they have filled to the correct level.:thumbup:

My gut tells me cheap valve seals. The turbo in the car now is a 3 year old Garrett with about 300-500 miles on it. I have a hard time believing my little 6lbs of boost, and 9:1 compression (via headgasket) car, which I simply drive as a regular car (ie. I don't track it) blew the seals on a new turbo. 



slcturbo said:


> Easiest and cheapest "try" if you cant figure it out are valve seals.


I'm with you. Sounds like I have a pretty good case here.:beer:


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## NHVeeDub (May 3, 2004)

*Information from Garrett*

Garrett FAQ's

"Blue/black smoke can be caused by numerous conditions, and one of them could be a turbocharger worn past its useful service life. The following are potential reasons that blue/black smoke could occur:"

Clogged air filter element or obstructed air intake duct. This condition creates a vacuum due to high differential pressure resulting in oil drawn into the compressor and subsequently burned during engine combustion.

Engine component problems; i.e. worn piston rings or liners, valve seals, fuel pump, fuel injectors, etc.

Obstructed oil drain on turbocharger resulting in pressure building inside the center housing and forcing oil past the turbocharger seals

Damaged turbocharger or turbocharger worn past its useful service life

Black smoke is also sometimes indicative of too rich an air/fuel mixture.​


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## cubanvr6jetta (Oct 22, 2009)

IS it only at idle??
how long it takes to start smoking?
after u run it for a lil bit goes away??
after u run it (if was not smoking diring the run) how long take u to see smoke again??

let me know the answers and ill give u the diagnostic.

most like valve seals but let me kno


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## NHVeeDub (May 3, 2004)

Only smokes at idle.
Will start in about five minutes.
Does not go away - it gets a lot worse (during idle). Does not smoke at speed, though smokes at a stop light within 10 seconds, and lets of a huge cloud of blue smoke when I take off.
:beer:


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## cubanvr6jetta (Oct 22, 2009)

With ur eyes closed u can take of the head and send it out for a rebuild, cheap way to do it buy valve guides and seals in ecs tuning and sent the head out for clean up inspection, crack check and intallation of the guides and seals the most is gonna cost u is 350 done with resurface, valve grind ans seated


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## VR6225 (May 9, 2004)

NHVeeDub said:


> Only smokes at idle.
> Will start in about five minutes.
> Does not go away - it gets a lot worse (during idle). Does not smoke at speed, though smokes at a stop light within 10 seconds, and lets of a huge cloud of blue smoke when I take off.
> :beer:


My buddies 12V turbo had the same issue a couple years ago. You most likely need new valve seals, thats what fixed it for him.


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## NHVeeDub (May 3, 2004)

*..and I'm back*

Got the car back today. I asked them to do valve guides/seals, and the bastard is still smoking. :thumbdown: 

I drained the catch can for the first time after driving about 70 miles, which must be helping as the smoking has decreased... I was quite surprised how much oil drained out - with that much oil in the catch can on that few miles, it can't just be blow-by... Something is pulling oil into the catch can.....

I just cleaned the air filter and am waiting for it to dry - I have my doubts on this being the culprit, but I'm willing to try just about anything at this point....

Questions/thoughts:
I lowered the compression during my rebuild and didn't change/update my software - problem?
Oil pressure reads 140 on startup... 70-90 once fully warmed up... ok there?
Boost gauge reads -20 on the highway with no load/or in gear & off the gas at speed... normal?

Already done:
New turbo
Valve/guides and seals
Catch can
General tune-up, including new wires

Grab a beer and play 'find the oil' with me:beer::beer::beer:


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## Raddoboy (Sep 18, 2002)

Had the bottom end rebuilt? My initial thoughts on first reading this thread were turbo seals and valve seals. After all the redone work Im thinking the gap on the rings is off. It doesnt happen often but you CAN hit a gray spot in gapping rings which can cause this. Think about it. At idle or light light load, the rings have just enough space to blow by oil. Under load the rings heat up(which is why you gap rings in the first place) and seals everything off. This is my guess.


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## Raddoboy (Sep 18, 2002)

What are you tuning this car with too?


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## NHVeeDub (May 3, 2004)

*sounds expensive*

The car is running C2 Motorsports software that was supplied with the Kinetics Stage 1 kit. The only thing I have changed spec-wise since running that kit prior to the rebuild, is lowering the compression via headgasket.

...compression test eh?.... hhmmmm... sounds expensive

BTW, cleaned the air filter, no change. I'm driving this car anyway, screw it. It goes like stink and it's been sitting far too long


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## MarcoVR6SC (May 3, 2003)

To test for cylinder blow-by, then do a leak down test, it's a rather simple test.

Another simple test is to open the oil fill cap when you have the blue smoke, and feel with your hand if theres any pressure coming out of it(there shouldn't be any pressure).

You're sure the engine hasn't too much oil in it?


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## Raddoboy (Sep 18, 2002)

Yeah leak it down and check compression, when its cold. Should surface some problem. And if you dropped the CR and are running the same tuning, get it switched out to make it worth it. Money sucks so get your blow by figured out first. Then retune.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Seems like too much pressure at idle going into the turbo. Chances are good your oil pressureguage is before the restrictor so that makes the reading useless. 

What size drain are you running?


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## 2pt. slo (Jan 4, 2004)

Sounds like a bad turbo to me. The 3 turbos that I had prior to the NIB Garret i bought all had blue smoke at idle and not during throttle. The first 3 were all used when bought and all failed and your description was the exact description of what i went through. The new Garret was the answer for me.


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## thepoloplaya (Sep 4, 2006)

does anyone else think that is an excess amount of oil pressure? Chances are you could be pushing oil through the seals...i know you checked your oil return, but I would recheck it just to make sure.


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## Raddoboy (Sep 18, 2002)

Have you checked your IC plumbing? If youve got seals blown on the turbo 9x out of 10 oils gonna be pooled everywhere in you plumbing.


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## TheBossQ (Aug 15, 2009)

NHVeeDub said:


> Questions/thoughts:
> I lowered the compression during my rebuild and didn't change/update my software - problem?
> Oil pressure reads 140 on startup... 70-90 once fully warmed up... ok there?


 WHAT?!?!?? PSI?!?!?! Are your numbers some other unit of measure? This has to be the problem. This oil pressure is crazy high. I honestly don't know how it's engineered on your car, but typically on the oil pump body (can be elsewhere within the oiling system) there is a pressure relief valve that ensures your pressure stays within spec. 60 PSI is usually the MAX and 40/45 PSI is a typical value for idle. Some cars operate at the same pressure the entire time, and that's regulated by that relief valve.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

NHVeeDub said:


> Oil pressure reads 140 on startup... 70-90 once fully warmed up... ok there?


 IGNORE EVERYTHING ELSE !!!!!!! 

thats your problem.


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## toy_vw (Feb 11, 2006)

most importantly...when does it read those pressures...at idle or 5000 RPM???? also electric gauge or mechanical...double check with mechanical to be SURE


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## dubbin95 (Mar 18, 2007)

wow umm that oil pressure is crazy high! i agree it shud be somewhere in the 60 range even on a really tight motor it shouldnt be that high. you have clearence issues with bearings or your oil pump is really overworking. did you have any machine work done to the crank? and what bearings did you put in? standard or undersized? you have something really screwed up. get a new oil pressure gauge and reassure yourself and the readings first before we go any further.


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## kompressorgolf (Dec 6, 2005)

Im running into the exact problem here, 97 Jetta VR6 motor, only mine is NA, full rebuild, minus headwork. only (mod) is a mk4 headgasket. i show 190-205 PSI compression. runs great. but same thing, oil pressure is really high. up into the 120's when cold still goes up to 90 (reving it) after the fans have cycled a few times. it was rebuilt compeetely with parts from GAP. we used standard bore rings, and all standard bearings. cylinders only needed a re-honing. it smoked immediately so we figured it was the head that needed rebuilt. so had a valve job done, and had the valve seals replaced, (dry cracked), thought we had it licked too, still an issue bump for more info. I cant see how a stock oil pump can go overboard but, in for more info!


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## brianstrawberry (Jun 3, 2009)

*I am having same problem, no oil gauge though*

I am running a VRT in my 2000 Jetta and have been dealing with smoke since I bought the car last year. I am in nearly $3000 between a headgasket and a new turbo. The new turbo helped for the past three months and now the smoke is comming back. 

Is there any resolution here? Was it the oil pressure?


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## NHVeeDub (May 3, 2004)

*Hands in air*

I've largely given up for this year. I was just driving it anyway when a new strange noise appeared that's either a simple loose splash guard ratcheting against my serpentine belt or something far more tragic involving a clutch, or who knows what else. I've got a house under renovation and simply don't need this aggravation, so I parked the damned thing until Spring. 

Regarding the oil pressure, one recommendation I've gotten that sounds interesting is installing a 'High Volume' oil pump, versus a 'High Pressure' oil pump. This came from a non-VW oriented race-car mechanic. The theory being that high pressure pumps move the oil too fast... I'm not 100% sold on this theory - I need to do more research.... but I'm need deep in bulkheads, drywalling, installing flooring, breathing dust in every corner of my home, and living out of a sunroom - this VW money pit is the last thing on my mind :banghead: 

That and I need a new project-car-oriented garage in New Hampshire - I get the feeling my current haunt has grown tired of my smoke-spewing problem-pit. 

Oh, when I replaced my turbo, the smoke started up again instantly. Dunno if the source is simply not the turbo, OR if something is causing the seals to instantly go bad. Either choice has merit. It's been suggested my rebuild was 'too tight,' which has caused the high oil pressure. I was working towards ideas on how to lower the oil pressure... which is how I get the 'High Volume' oil pump theory. 

Best of luck - sounds like we both need it:beer:


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