# C&D Says...



## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

... next fall for the US S3. 

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/new-cars-for-2014-audi-feature

Hope they're wrong, but mentally preparing for the likelihood that they aren't...


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## aodmisery (Aug 31, 2013)

what happend to the 2.0 180 hp engine


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

You mean the 1.8T? It's interesting that they've omitted that one, and I do wonder if they know something we don't. A couple weeks ago, I referenced an interview from sometime in August in which Scott Keogh suggested a "low 30s" base price for the new A3 in the US. This got a couple of us thinking that they may have decided to can the 1.8T, though nothing official has been said to that end. 

I can't say I'd be disappointed if they've decided to drop the 1.8T base car and instead go with a 2.0T base car for a couple thousand dollars more. I'm anxious for the order guides to leak.


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## MaX PL (Apr 10, 2006)

sounds awful.

i was planning euro delivery to coincide with a wedding i have to attend next summer in poland.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Dan Halen said:


> ... next fall for the US S3.
> 
> http://www.caranddriver.com/news/new-cars-for-2014-audi-feature
> 
> Hope they're wrong, but mentally preparing for the likelihood that they aren't...


I'm not going to say it's 100% gospel, but if I were a betting man, C&D has the right information. 

This jives with what my contacts have said to me in carefully worded statements: the cars will be launched simultaneously but the S3 will not be available until "slightly later".


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Dan Halen said:


> You mean the 1.8T? It's interesting that they've omitted that one, and I do wonder if they know something we don't. A couple weeks ago, I referenced an interview from sometime in August in which Scott Keogh suggested a "low 30s" base price for the new A3 in the US. This got a couple of us thinking that they may have decided to can the 1.8T, though nothing official has been said to that end.
> 
> I can't say I'd be disappointed if they've decided to drop the 1.8T base car and instead go with a 2.0T base car for a couple thousand dollars more. I'm anxious for the order guides to leak.


Yes, that is peculiar that the references to the 1.8T have been dropped here and hinted at in the Keogh interview a few weeks back. We've hashed this discussion here recently, but that move makes sense considering Keogh wants to keep the Audi brand squarely within the premium category. Dipping below $30k works against that, plus if you can add value content for a few bucks more - why not?


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Travis Grundke said:


> I'm not going to say it's 100% gospel, but if I were a betting man, C&D has the right information.
> 
> This jives with what my contacts have said to me in carefully worded statements: the cars will be launched simultaneously but the S3 will not be available until "slightly later".


Well crap. I need to get more serious about offloading the GLI and making do with something sub-$1,000, then. I'd hoped to be able to list it when I get a VIN for my S3, but I don't think it can wait that long if that's going to be September 2014 or so. I can't justify holding onto it for the 100,000-mile hit. Next fall is also likely to be a few to several months too late to take advantage of the current bargain interest rates.

Between the loss of value of my current car and the potential inflation in interest rates, Audi withholding the car for an additional six months could cost me a few thousand dollars. If my money could actually earn anything right now, it wouldn't be so bad. :laugh:


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Dan Halen said:


> Well crap. I need to get more serious about offloading the GLI and making do with something sub-$1,000, then. I'd hoped to be able to list it when I get a VIN for my S3, but I don't think it can wait that long if that's going to be September 2014 or so. I can't justify holding onto it for the 100,000-mile hit. Next fall is also likely to be a few to several months too late to take advantage of the current bargain interest rates.
> 
> Between the loss of value of my current car and the potential inflation in interest rates, Audi withholding the car for an additional six months could cost me a few thousand dollars. If my money could actually earn anything right now, it wouldn't be so bad. :laugh:


Well unfortunately I don't think we're going to know anything more definite until the LA Autoshow in November at the earliest, Detroit in January at the latest. I would expect Audi to make a big show of the A3/S3 at LA since this will be one of their key markets.


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## Cyncris (Aug 12, 2012)

That A3/S3 info was based on the piece that they wrote on the A3/S3 back in March. I don't know that I would put any stock in it.
I am hoping that we will hear some hard dates by the LA show later this year.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Travis Grundke said:


> Well unfortunately I don't think we're going to know anything more definite until the LA Autoshow in November at the earliest, Detroit in January at the latest. I would expect Audi to make a big show of the A3/S3 at LA since this will be one of their key markets.


Yep. I may have already found a buyer for my car; now to find a good '94-'97 Accord for cheap. It's a downgrade, sure, but it's really not a bad place to be. And there's a bit of nostalgia there, too.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Cyncris said:


> That A3/S3 info was based on the piece that they wrote on the A3/S3 back in March. I don't know that I would put any stock in it.
> I am hoping that we will hear some hard dates by the LA show later this year.


Honestly, I wasn't really supposed to get the car until October of next year, anyway... but I've "managed expectations" well enough that I'll be able to get it earlier should it be available earlier. I'm more concerned about losing the good interest rate at this point, really. I can put more down as I'll have more saved the longer it takes for it to get here, but if they're willing to give me cheap money, I'd just planned to sit on my cash.


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## tagsvags (Nov 25, 2005)

Dan Halen said:


> Honestly, I wasn't really supposed to get the car until October of next year, anyway... but I've "managed expectations" well enough that I'll be able to get it earlier should it be available earlier. I'm more concerned about losing the good interest rate at this point, really. I can put more down as I'll have more saved the longer it takes for it to get here, but if they're willing to give me cheap money, I'd just planned to sit on my cash.


X2 The latter that the A3 gets here to NA the more I'll have for a down payment. Do you really think that AOA will offer cheep money hope so, but I may go all cash.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

tagsvags said:


> X2 The latter that the A3 gets here to NA the more I'll have for a down payment. Do you really think that AOA will offer cheep money hope so, but I may go all cash.


I don't really intend to shop Audi's rates as I imagine there won't be incentives on such a new car. My credit union doesn't care how long a car has been out, though; to them, new is new. I just have to bank on their rates staying low. Anything under about 3% for 60 months, and I'll play with their money and let mine work for me.


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## tagsvags (Nov 25, 2005)

I plan on taking advantage of the ACNA discount as I became a member again in June of this year.


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## JOES1.8T (Sep 8, 2003)

I will be placing my order before I do a permanently change of station here back stateside next June. Will be aiming for a august 2015 delivery to get a 2016 MY at 2015 price through Audi military sales program. The beauty is 1% over invoice plus 1k discount on top of that for orders placed 150 days out from requested delivery date. Considering this my gift for being stationed here for 3 years which is amazing to see and drive,going to hate driving back in the states.


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## LWNY (Jul 30, 2008)

Crap. what disaster. The 8P would have be off the market for almost 2 years from the market. They are doing a disservice to the A3 model, where it has pretty much disappeared from people's mindset.


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## FractureCritical (Nov 24, 2009)

Travis Grundke said:


> Yes, that is peculiar that the references to the 1.8T have been dropped here and hinted at in the Keogh interview a few weeks back. We've hashed this discussion here recently, but that move makes sense considering Keogh wants to keep the Audi brand squarely within the premium category. Dipping below $30k works against that, plus if you can add value content for a few bucks more - why not?


kind of a head scratcher since the previous A3 started well under $30k. Starting above $30k, say at around $32k puts the A3 in the same territory as the base A4. Who are they planning on selling the ostensibly smaller A3 to at the same price as the A4? It's not like they don't have the room for a price drop, the damnable thing is made in Mexico.

It does make sense to me that they'd want to bag the 1.8T when when anyone can walk into a VW dealer and get the 2.0T in a GTI for thousands less (I know it's not the same 2.0T, but no one cares)


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## FractureCritical (Nov 24, 2009)

LWNY said:


> Crap. what disaster. The 8P would have be off the market for almost 2 years from the market. They are doing a disservice to the A3 model, where it has pretty much disappeared from people's mindset.


the 8P was never in the people's mindset.
Audi barely marketed the car with loose change found between the couch cushions in the dealer waiting room. They'll spend millions to market the A7 on the tenuous hope of selling them in the dozens, but not a nickel on the A3.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

FractureCritical said:


> kind of a head scratcher since the previous A3 started well under $30k. Starting above $30k, say at around $32k puts the A3 in the same territory as the base A4. Who are they planning on selling the ostensibly smaller A3 to at the same price as the A4? It's not like they don't have the room for a price drop, the damnable thing is made in Mexico.
> 
> It does make sense to me that they'd want to bag the 1.8T when when anyone can walk into a VW dealer and get the 2.0T in a GTI for thousands less (I know it's not the same 2.0T, but no one cares)


Mexico? The A3 models for our market will be built in Györ, Hungary. Also, I imagine the A4 will push upmarket some when we see the B9. I do agree that pricing may compare awkwardly between the two at first, though.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

FractureCritical said:


> kind of a head scratcher since the previous A3 started well under $30k. Starting above $30k, say at around $32k puts the A3 in the same territory as the base A4. Who are they planning on selling the ostensibly smaller A3 to at the same price as the A4? It's not like they don't have the room for a price drop, the damnable thing is made in Mexico.
> 
> It does make sense to me that they'd want to bag the 1.8T when when anyone can walk into a VW dealer and get the 2.0T in a GTI for thousands less (I know it's not the same 2.0T, but no one cares)


The A3 is more of a lifestyle car, similar to how the A7 straddles the A6 and A8 and is marketed toward people who want something a bit more avant garde and unique. 

While no doubt the B9 will move a bit more upmarket and distance itself from the A3 range within the next 18 months, the two cars are targeted at very distinct markets and are significantly different, regardless of price. As examples, the A3 will have a more 'snug' cockpit and rear seat, the A4 will feel roomy in comparison; The A3 will be tuned for a sportier ride where the A4 is more plush; The A3 will feature the s-tronic transmission while the A4 will stick with Tiptronic for the time being; The A3 will have more electronic bells and whistles while the A4 soldiers on with the older MMI system until the B9 replacement.

Put the two cars side by side in the showroom and I guarantee you'll find consumers that will quickly gravitate toward one or the other. I don't think it's a mutually exclusive, zero sum game. No doubt there will be some cannibalization, but as Steve Jobs was fond of saying: if we're going to lose sales of a product, let's lose it to one of our other products.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

FractureCritical said:


> the 8P was never in the people's mindset.
> Audi barely marketed the car with loose change found between the couch cushions in the dealer waiting room. They'll spend millions to market the A7 on the tenuous hope of selling them in the dozens, but not a nickel on the A3.


The A7 has two things going for it: one, it is a halo car to burnish Audi's design credentials and to help build the brand. Two, it has a significantly greater profit margin than the 8P A3 ever did. A 10% margin on a $33,000 car is very different from a 10% margin on a $65,000 car. It's not even a one-to-one, it's greater than that the higher up you go in the food chain. 

Remember, the A3 was brought to the US as an experiment and never really took off until the TDI introduction. It gave them an opportunity to do a lot of testing with regard to packaging and to gauge customer take rates.


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## FractureCritical (Nov 24, 2009)

Dan Halen said:


> Mexico? The A3 models for our market will be built in Györ, Hungary. Also, I imagine the A4 will push upmarket some when we see the B9. I do agree that pricing may compare awkwardly between the two at first, though.


huh. I would have thought that it would be built in the Mexico plant with the Q5. 

I can't see Audi moving the price scale up on the A4. They're only a little cheaper than the 3 series, and Audis get absolutely destroyed by the lease rates BMW offers thanks to BMW's high residual rates. 
Given the very high percentage of people that lease German metal in this country, moving the A4 up market without redoing the lease strategy from scratch is gonna really hurt sales, and I don't see Audi residuals jumping from 55% to 65%.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

FractureCritical said:


> huh. I would have thought that it would be built in the Mexico plant with the Q5.
> 
> I can't see Audi moving the price scale up on the A4. They're only a little cheaper than the 3 series, and Audis get absolutely destroyed by the lease rates BMW offers thanks to BMW's high residual rates.
> Given the very high percentage of people that lease German metal in this country, moving the A4 up market without redoing the lease strategy from scratch is gonna really hurt sales, and I don't see Audi residuals jumping from 55% to 65%.


The 8V A3 sedan will more directly compete with the 3 series while the A4 will move to straddle the A4/A6 marketplace. Audi has always been very cagey about positioning its cars in a such a way that it's difficult to perform a direct 1-1 comparison with the competition. You're going to see that continue. 

I think that in the US, at least, we're going to see the A3 series fill the volume role that the A4 traditionally held. Between the A3 and Q3 lineups I wouldn't be surprised to see an additional 50,000 units added to their North American sales. Some of that will come from A4 cannibalization but the vast majority will be new volume.


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## FractureCritical (Nov 24, 2009)

Travis Grundke said:


> The 8V A3 sedan will more directly compete with the 3 series while the A4 will move to straddle the A4/A6 marketplace. Audi has always been very cagey about positioning its cars in a such a way that it's difficult to perform a direct 1-1 comparison with the competition. You're going to see that continue.
> 
> I think that in the US, at least, we're going to see the A3 series fill the volume role that the A4 traditionally held. Between the A3 and Q3 lineups I wouldn't be surprised to see an additional 50,000 units added to their North American sales. Some of that will come from A4 cannibalization but the vast majority will be new volume.


I don't know that I would agree with the volumes and price points we're talking about here, i.e., 2100 units per month in both the Q3 and A3 model lines to support your projection. Looking at the closest compeitor to the Q3, the X1, it moves about 2200 units per month, but it bases as $30k even and the residuals run five points higher on the average. that's a pretty substantial penalty. At Audi residuals, and to move those kind of units, it'll have to start in the mid-high 20's to make the same monthly price point, which would place the car, pricewise, between the X1 and the Verano, possibly within a few pennies of tme Mini Countryman All4. Both those cars hit the 2100/mo sales goal.

I see the same problem with the A3. there's really no comparison vehicle that I can think of for this car. I could cite the ATS, which (I think) does move about 3300 units per month, but it's signficantly more powerful with more options and GM has been very agressive with cash on the hood, which of course has driven the average transaction rate pretty far down. You could argue branding, but that only gets you so far. I could cite the CT200 or 1 Series, but they are largely sales failures. 

So, to meet the 50k sales goal, which pretty much HAS to be new downmarket customers, I kinda see the need for starting prices in the upper $20k range. Audi could go for the low $30's, but that threshold opens up other competition. Sure it's possible to move that kind of metal at that price point, but these need to be really spectacular products in a market of pretty spectacular products. I just don't see it. My guess is that Audi will likely push around 850-1000 of each model per month. It might be more, but like you said, it'll be canibalized A4/Q5 sales.


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## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

One of my "internal" contacts says ordering starts in Feb with deliveries in April/May, and another contact says late summer for S3.

We'll see!


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Travis Grundke said:


> I'm not going to say it's 100% gospel, but if I were a betting man, C&D has the right information.
> 
> This jives with what my contacts have said to me in carefully worded statements: the cars will be launched simultaneously but the S3 will not be available until "slightly later".





FastGTi said:


> One of my "internal" contacts says ordering starts in Feb with deliveries in April/May, and another contact says late summer for S3.
> 
> We'll see!


March for the A3 (if this isn't still current, either, please say so) to begin deliveries, with the S3 "slightly later" makes anytime between May and July sound about right. Much beyond July, and you're really not "slightly" later at that point.

I still can't quite make sense of why they're withholding the lineup from its chief market (second only to markets in Asia, perhaps) for so long, and I really can't quite figure out why they're going to stagger trim level releases after the finally get units rolling around March. Production began in Hungary on June 12, and deliveries begin to Europe "in the fall," I believe, for the A3 sedan (with the S3 sedan arriving in those markets in early 2014). It's a new plant, and that involves a serious amount of time to bring on-line and ramp up safely and efficiently- I know that. But 10+ months after production begins at the plant, and we'll just start seeing the full range of trims in the US, one of Audi's self-professed major markets for this car?

That's probably a question, with a valid answer, that may never be fully understood. I know AoA had substantial say in the design of the A3 and is very close to the internal affairs relating to the launch, and I know they're doing what they can to ensure the US market cars are on the ground as rapidly as possible; it sounds like their bottom line depends on it, quite frankly. They're having record month after record month in the US, but we know they know the importance of this car to their sales targets.

How many more months of armchair quarterbacking, now?


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Dan Halen said:


> March for the A3 (if this isn't still current, either, please say so) to begin deliveries, with the S3 "slightly later" makes anytime between May and July sound about right. Much beyond July, and you're really not "slightly" later at that point.
> 
> I still can't quite make sense of why they're withholding the lineup from its chief market (second only to markets in Asia, perhaps) for so long, and I really can't quite figure out why they're going to stagger trim level releases after the finally get units rolling around March. Production began in Hungary on June 12, and deliveries begin to Europe "in the fall," I believe, for the A3 sedan (with the S3 sedan arriving in those markets in early 2014). It's a new plant, and that involves a serious amount of time to bring on-line and ramp up safely and efficiently- I know that. But 10+ months after production begins at the plant, and we'll just start seeing the full range of trims in the US, one of Audi's self-professed major markets for this car?


IIRC, European deliveries officially start on September 27 for the A3. 

My understanding is that a lot of the delay can be attributed to supply constraints. In particular I know that there are some *massive* delays in GTI deliveries right now - upwards of NINE months from order to delivery in some cases at the moment. From what I have read a lot of that has to do with ramping up the new 2.0TFSI production.


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## BrutusA3 (Jul 10, 2013)

I am sticking to the under 30K to start, I just do not see how Audi will let Merc steal their thunder even if everyone can say you can't get that model with the standard equipment then the Audi.

Look the Audi A3 right now msrp is 27,270 right? It has already been stated in multiple areas that the new A3 will be a couple grand more then the previous model. I think it completely makes sense at 29,270 or thereabouts.

1. already A3 has a built in price people are aware of, no matter how nice the new model is, and they know it starts well under 30K.

2. main car it will be compared to is the Merc right now (which is under 30K), and this is good for Audi as they should beat them at their own game.

3. audi already has a close relative the A4 in the low 30 starting, people can talk all they want how they are 2 very different clientelles, bottomline dude walks into showroom sees a 2.0T A3 which is newer/fresher vs the A4 2.0T and they are close in price and the A3 in fact is better optioned, well there goes the cannibalization of the A4.

4. audi is looking to really increase their sales and get younger like everyone is.

5. marketing under 30K and above 30K are 2 different beasts, it is a perception even if they model has every option under the sun for 32K vs a well-equipped model for under 30K. Price points are extremely important in this country in regards to the value perception. I work in sales I see this price issue so much, it still bugs me people can't look past the added-value difference but they do all the time.

I will honestly be completely shocked if they release this car over 30K, even if they remove the 1.8T from the equation and remove some equipment from the 2.0T to get there.

B.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Travis Grundke said:


> IIRC, European deliveries officially start on September 27 for the A3.
> 
> My understanding is that a lot of the delay can be attributed to supply constraints. In particular I know that there are some *massive* delays in GTI deliveries right now - upwards of NINE months from order to delivery in some cases at the moment. From what I have read a lot of that has to do with ramping up the new 2.0TFSI production.


Yep, I figured it had to be something supply-related. While it may seem that the US market should get cars first, if the supply constraints allow only a small number of cars to be built, it'd be a bit silly to move them into the US and appear like you've launched with your pants around your ankles when you don't have nearly enough supply.

While it's obvious that I'm falling into the classic American "give me it na0!" trap of impatience over this car, I'm ultimately happy to let them work out early production and field issues on our guinea pig friends in Europe if it means we'll get a more solid, consistent product with consistent, reasonable delivery times at launch.

Maybe they learned something from the early days of the Q5.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

BrutusA3 said:


> I am sticking to the under 30K to start, I just do not see how Audi will let Merc steal their thunder even if everyone can say you can't get that model with the standard equipment then the Audi.
> 
> Look the Audi A3 right now msrp is 27,270 right? It has already been stated in multiple areas that the new A3 will be a couple grand more then the previous model. I think it completely makes sense at 29,270 or thereabouts.
> 
> ...


The CLA _isn't_ under $30,000, though- unless you can get a dealer to waive destination. From the reviews we've been seeing for the CLA, though, Mercedes better clinch damn tight to that "under $30,000" line, no matter how disingenuous, because that's seemingly all they've got.

I realize it's common practice to price items like Mercedes has priced the CLA, but that doesn't make it any less slimy or underhanded to me. Maybe we'll see Audi do it, too; won't change my opinion of it.

It's funny you mention that $30,000 pain tolerance, by the way. Up until about six months ago, I was firmly in the "I'll not pay more than $30,000 for a car; anything north of that is just a waste." And here I am waiting on the S3 now... :screwy:


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Dan Halen said:


> The CLA _isn't_ under $30,000, though- unless you can get a dealer to waive destination. From the reviews we've been seeing for the CLA, though, Mercedes better clinch damn tight to that "under $30,000" line, no matter how disingenuous, because that's seemingly all they've got.
> 
> I realize it's common practice to price items like Mercedes has priced the CLA, but that doesn't make it any less slimy or underhanded to me. Maybe we'll see Audi do it, too; won't change my opinion of it.
> 
> It's funny you mention that $30,000 pain tolerance, by the way. Up until about six months ago, I was firmly in the "I'll not pay more than $30,000 for a car; anything north of that is just a waste." And here I am waiting on the S3 now... :screwy:


Bingo. Merc is really clinging to that "below $30,000" tag line, even though it's complete bull and everyone knows it. Clearly Merc has built a car to a price point - and it shows. Once the US-spec side by sides start to run in the autorags comparing the CLA to the A3 and the forthcoming 2-series I think it's going to be a slaughter for the CLA.

As for price points, the A3 is aspirational in a similar vein to the S4. The S4 has always been a car that people have been willing to stretch a few dollars more than they otherwise would have in order to get into it. The move from the B7 to B8 made the S4 more affordable, the elimination of the 3.2 V6 from the A4 made it the only way to get into a 6 cylinder in the range, and the increase in content made it very appealing overall. 

I would not be surprised to see Audi do something similar with the A3/S3. The marginal cost to produce the higher trim models is small, but if you package and price it correctly you'll move more people into the higher spec models if the content is worth the price bump.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Dan Halen said:


> Yep, I figured it had to be something supply-related. While it may seem that the US market should get cars first, if the supply constraints allow only a small number of cars to be built, it'd be a bit silly to move them into the US and appear like you've launched with your pants around your ankles when you don't have nearly enough supply.
> 
> While it's obvious that I'm falling into the classic American "give me it na0!" trap of impatience over this car, I'm ultimately happy to let them work out early production and field issues on our guinea pig friends in Europe if it means we'll get a more solid, consistent product with consistent, reasonable delivery times at launch.
> 
> Maybe they learned something from the early days of the Q5.


Well, don't forget we also have the most litigious society on the planet. Better to ensure the product is solid than to deal with the attorneys and class action lawsuits that will result from a shoddy product.


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## BrutusA3 (Jul 10, 2013)

Dan Halen said:


> The CLA _isn't_ under $30,000, though- unless you can get a dealer to waive destination. From the reviews we've been seeing for the CLA, though, Mercedes better clinch damn tight to that "under $30,000" line, no matter how disingenuous, because that's seemingly all they've got.
> 
> I realize it's common practice to price items like Mercedes has priced the CLA, but that doesn't make it any less slimy or underhanded to me. Maybe we'll see Audi do it, too; won't change my opinion of it.
> 
> It's funny you mention that $30,000 pain tolerance, by the way. Up until about six months ago, I was firmly in the "I'll not pay more than $30,000 for a car; anything north of that is just a waste." And here I am waiting on the S3 now... :screwy:


Well this is another argument the whole msrp not including destination, everyone does this whether Merc, Audi, Honda, Toyota or otherwise annoys the **** out of me. Dest is there just include it in the damn price. This is the same tactic used with advertising EPA MPG, you never hear about the city mileage unless it is the better number, it is always the HWY, they will always take the better number. One thing I find annoying with BMW for example is they set a base price yet the car is as bone dry of options as you can get, just so they can meet some virtual price point which you could never ever find at a dealership. Then you read some car mag saying under 40K shootout, yet then you see really the BMW to match up to the other cars options really was 45K, yet this is glossed over.

I love it up until 6 months ago comment :laugh:. I would personally love an S3, or CPO S4 but there is no way that will get past my wife, she would say if you want AWD just get a Subaru and save the money. Nothing wrong with a Subie but I do not like the ergonomics and like my cars with a certain look. The A3 seems like the perfect replacement for my TSX, just super bummed about lack of manual, I would pay extra for this, **** I would be pumped if they brought the sportwagon version. Ideal car Sportwagon A3 with manual.

I forgot to mention they other car I think people would cross shop is the Volvo S60 in terms of AWD sport sedan type of thing.

B.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Travis Grundke said:


> Well, don't forget we also have the most litigious society on the planet. Better to ensure the product is solid than to deal with the attorneys and class action lawsuits that will result from a shoddy product.


:laugh:

I don't want anyone to take my prior comment out of context; I don't think for one second that the A3 is anything short of a damn solid car. I just know that small things do creep up as a new model's production ramps up, and I'm glad we should be at least somewhat insulated from those.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

BrutusA3 said:


> I love it up until 6 months ago comment :laugh:. I would personally love an S3, or CPO S4 but there is no way that will get past my wife, she would say if you want AWD just get a Subaru and save the money. Nothing wrong with a Subie but I do not like the ergonomics and like my cars with a certain look. The A3 seems like the perfect replacement for my TSX, just super bummed about lack of manual, I would pay extra for this, **** I would be pumped if they brought the sportwagon version. Ideal car Sportwagon A3 with manual.


My wife wrote the check on this one. I'd been pushing for a used Cayman S for a while, and she just wouldn't budge. We made the compromise on the S3, even after I told her it would cost thousands more than the Cayman S, which I figured I could acquire for roughly $35,000.

Honestly, though, I'm fully invested in the idea of the S3 now. I haven't thought much about the Cayman since she approved this purchase. :wave:


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## BrutusA3 (Jul 10, 2013)

The cayman IMO is the best bang for your buck Porsche, nice thought. I love the shoot for highly unpractical sports car so you can move to the S3, nice job. I got young kids no way I get away with something less then 4 door. I was all about picking up a used Acura NSX but that will not fly and I cannot pull the wool over my wife's eyes.

B.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Aw, c'mon- it's incredibly practical. It has two trunks for groceries! 

Her concern was child-related, mostly. She didn't want me having a car that wouldn't be suitable for child duty, even though we haven't even decided if we're going that route. Then I put the proverbial turd in the punch bowl by telling her she could use her car for baby duty just fine as we usually don't take my car when we go somewhere, anyway.


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## Chimera (Jul 6, 2002)

A 2.0T AWD 3-series starts at 40k+ before a single option is added (328, $43 for "Sport" model). Audi has the potential to poach a TON of 3-series drivers running around. So, it would not surprise if the starting price was $30k+. Maybe they don't need to be competitive with Merc cuz they believe they have a better offering.


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## GTI2Slow (Jun 23, 2007)

To stay under the A4 by a reasonable margin the A3 base will need to start at $30K. The S3 would fall into the upper $30K range.

My only question is if we are going to see a RS3 on US shores.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Dan Halen said:


> :laugh:
> 
> I don't want anyone to take my prior comment out of context; I don't think for one second that the A3 is anything short of a damn solid car. I just know that small things do creep up as a new model's production ramps up, and I'm glad we should be at least somewhat insulated from those.


Oh no, nothing against Audi, but if you know people in international manufacturing they will tell you that there is a general fear when it comes to selling product in the United States due to the potential for class action lawsuits, etc. Think of the rest of the world as the beta testers for us. ;-)


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Chimera said:


> A 2.0T AWD 3-series starts at 40k+ before a single option is added (328, $43 for "Sport" model). Audi has the potential to poach a TON of 3-series drivers running around. So, it would not surprise if the starting price was $30k+. Maybe they don't need to be competitive with Merc cuz they believe they have a better offering.


Based on the European reviews it's a no-contest win for the A3. I think Audi has a huge opportunity to better equip its models and steal a boatload of sales from potential CLA and 3-series buyers. If you read the "What Car?" review, the A3 is surprisingly close in interior dimensions to the 3-series, which I find to be a just-about-right sized cockpit. 

Massive opportunity to bring customers into the fold with this one.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

GTI2Slow said:


> To stay under the A4 by a reasonable margin the A3 base will need to start at $30K. The S3 would fall into the upper $30K range.
> 
> My only question is if we are going to see a RS3 on US shores.


I think the perceived need to price relative to the A4 is in reality a non-issue. Again, we're talking about different demographics, different tastes, different sizes, different levels of refinement and different levels of equipment. No doubt Audi has calculated that the A3 will cannibalize some A4 sales, but so what? 

Even better, you now have an offering for all of those people who have been complaining that the A4 has grown too large in size, too bloated, too soft and cushy. Less expensive to build than the A4, the A3 is a win-win for Audi.

Audi has stated that the S3 should clock in at around $39k. If that's the case it will likely top out at between $43-$45 with all the options ticked off. 

Success of the AMG CLA will determine whether we get the RS3. If I were a betting man I'd suggest we won't get it until the facelift in 3-4 years' time. If you read George's report today it sounds like there are additional (read: more than likely TDI) powertrains coming for the Sportback in the US. Were I in product planning I would prioritize the sedans, the sport back, the convertible and the RS3 at the tail end as a potential halo car. That thing can spit fireballs, but at a likely $50k price, there are a LOT of other cars I would prefer to have.


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## caliatenza (Dec 10, 2006)

Travis Grundke said:


> I think the perceived need to price relative to the A4 is in reality a non-issue. Again, we're talking about different demographics, different tastes, different sizes, different levels of refinement and different levels of equipment. No doubt Audi has calculated that the A3 will cannibalize some A4 sales, but so what?
> 
> Even better, you now have an offering for all of those people who have been complaining that the A4 has grown too large in size, too bloated, too soft and cushy. Less expensive to build than the A4, the A3 is a win-win for Audi.
> 
> ...


man the wait is killer, and that too now if the S3 is only coming next fall, thats gonna suck


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## LWNY (Jul 30, 2008)

FractureCritical said:


> the 8P was never in the people's mindset.
> Audi barely marketed the car with loose change found between the couch cushions in the dealer waiting room. They'll spend millions to market the A7 on the tenuous hope of selling them in the dozens, but not a nickel on the A3.


it definitely was doomed to not succeed, given Audi's lack of marketing let alone lack of factory financed lease, which drove many lease prices to over $600 when it first came out. But the A3 TDI came out and people started noticing it. Now it gets the rug pulled from under it and the name goes into oblivion.


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## FractureCritical (Nov 24, 2009)

LWNY said:


> it definitely was doomed to not succeed, given Audi's lack of marketing let alone lack of factory financed lease, which drove many lease prices to over $600 when it first came out. But the A3 TDI came out and people started noticing it. Now it gets the rug pulled from under it and the name goes into oblivion.


You're describing the 'old' GM marketing strategy:

step 1) make a car and just assume people will buy it without telling them about it. 
step 2) improve the car to the point that it is popular, powerful, attractive.
step 3) realize that the car sells well and IMMIDATELY stop making it.


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## FractureCritical (Nov 24, 2009)

Dan Halen said:


> March for the A3 (if this isn't still current, either, please say so) to begin deliveries, with the S3 "slightly later" makes anytime between May and July sound about right. Much beyond July, and you're really not "slightly" later at that point.
> 
> I still can't quite make sense of why they're withholding the lineup from its chief market (second only to markets in Asia, perhaps) for so long, and I really can't quite figure out why they're going to stagger trim level releases after the finally get units rolling around March. Production began in Hungary on June 12, and deliveries begin to Europe "in the fall," I believe, for the A3 sedan (with the S3 sedan arriving in those markets in early 2014). It's a new plant, and that involves a serious amount of time to bring on-line and ramp up safely and efficiently- I know that. But 10+ months after production begins at the plant, and we'll just start seeing the full range of trims in the US, one of Audi's self-professed major markets for this car?
> 
> ...



I think you nailed it once before when you mentioned how important the A3 is to the US market. combine the new plant with a heavy mix of US specific components and I would like to thingk that Audi would want to work the kinks out in the home market (where premium factory tech service is readily available) before launching in the US. I'm sure the epic disaster that is the VW Chatanooga plant is at the front of their minds, though I might argue that Tennesee is more of a 3rd world nation that Hungary


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## FractureCritical (Nov 24, 2009)

BrutusA3 said:


> I love it up until 6 months ago comment :laugh:. I would personally love an S3, or CPO S4 but there is no way that will get past my wife, she would say if you want AWD just get a Subaru and save the money. Nothing wrong with a Subie but I do not like the ergonomics and like my cars with a certain look. The A3 seems like the perfect replacement for my TSX, just super bummed about lack of manual, I would pay extra for this, **** I would be pumped if they brought the sportwagon version. Ideal car Sportwagon A3 with manual.
> 
> I forgot to mention they other car I think people would cross shop is the Volvo S60 in terms of AWD sport sedan type of thing.
> 
> B.


Has your wife sat in a recent model Subie? My wife did and was not pleased. She described the interior materials (almost entirely rubbery plastics) as seeming like they were made from recycled condoms. :laugh:


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

FractureCritical said:


> I'm sure the epic disaster that is the VW Chatanooga plant is at the front of their minds, though I might argue that Tennesee is more of a 3rd world nation that Hungary


Fracture -

Can you elaborate on what the epic disaster at Chattanooga is, exactly?


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

FractureCritical said:


> Has your wife sat in a recent model Subie? My wife did and was not pleased. She described the interior materials (almost entirely rubbery plastics) as seeming like they were made from recycled condoms. :laugh:


My wife was interested in a Legacy / Impreza sedan last year. She was completely unimpressed with the car, most notably with the massive amounts of wind and road noise on the highway. Very cheap feel, overall. 

The 2012 AWD CRV-EX that she ended up with was *vastly* superior in every imaginable way. Very disappointed in the Subarus.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

LWNY said:


> it definitely was doomed to not succeed, given Audi's lack of marketing let alone lack of factory financed lease, which drove many lease prices to over $600 when it first came out. But the A3 TDI came out and people started noticing it. Now it gets the rug pulled from under it and the name goes into oblivion.


The A3 was an experiment and was brought to the US at a loss in order to gauge market reaction to a small premium wagon in the US. There are two major takeaways from the A3 experiment:

1. It needed something unique to sell it (TDI / fuel economy);
2. Wagons will sell, and will sell profitably.

I would argue that the return of the Allroad is directly attributable to the A3's (relative) success. What the 8P demonstrated was that there is a market for a premium wagon. The Allroad fits this niche and since it sells for a significantly higher price (ATP is $40k versus A3's $33k) Audi has a business case for it. 

The 8V Sportback e-Tron and rumored eventual Sportback TDI will probably become good sellers on par with, if not better than the outgoing 8P. It all has to do with packaging, pricing and being able to sell the product at a profit.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

FractureCritical said:


> I think you nailed it once before when you mentioned how important the A3 is to the US market. combine the new plant with a heavy mix of US specific components and I would like to thingk that Audi would want to work the kinks out in the home market (where premium factory tech service is readily available) before launching in the US. I'm sure the epic disaster that is the VW Chatanooga plant is at the front of their minds, though I might argue that Tennesee is more of a 3rd world nation that Hungary


Someone doesn't realize I live in TN.

I'll give you that some of Memphis is stuck in a third-world rut, but the rest of the state is part of the the real world. It's a shame, because Memphis could be a really nice place if the recurring socioeconomic issues were addressed. 

Anyway, Travis already caught the part I was really curious about. I've got a friend who spent a lot of time at the plant before full production began; I never got the impression that there was any sort of disaster.


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## Rudy_H (Jul 6, 2012)

super disappointing, however, on the bright side...

The rumored 2-series gran coupe might be less of a rumor by then! Plus hopefully will have an indication of whether Subaru decided to truly upgrade the WRX / STi interior from the Impreza as been rumored.

Will solve the 'ah man I should have waited for...' issue I always seem to have after a year owning a car.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Rudy_H said:


> Will solve the 'ah man I should have waited for...' issue I always seem to have after a year owning a car.


I'm damn glad I only have that issue with phones.

Now where is Google with that Nexus announcement? :facepalm:


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## Cyncris (Aug 12, 2012)

FractureCritical said:


> I think you nailed it once before when you mentioned how important the A3 is to the US market. combine the new plant with a heavy mix of US specific components and I would like to thingk that Audi would want to work the kinks out in the home market (where premium factory tech service is readily available) before launching in the US. I'm sure the epic disaster that is the VW Chatanooga plant is at the front of their minds, though I might argue that Tennesee is more of a 3rd world nation that Hungary


How is TN a 3rd world country?
Chattanooga is one of the first places in the US to offer fiber to the house to the public as well as up to 1GB internet speeds.
It is also one of the cleaner prettier cities that I have visited ever.
And what epic disaster happened at the VW plant?

Also with your argument on price points it sounds like you are only considering leases...
Audi has one of the highest resale values of any car, with the A5 retaining something really high (like 65%) of its value over several years. It is and has always been smarter to buy an Audi and simply sell it when you are ready to move on. 
I have had several salesmen try to talk me into a lease...but if you work out the full cost, you are far better off buying than leasing.


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## Cyncris (Aug 12, 2012)

Dan Halen said:


> My wife wrote the check on this one. I'd been pushing for a used Cayman S for a while, and she just wouldn't budge. We made the compromise on the S3, even after I told her it would cost thousands more than the Cayman S, which I figured I could acquire for roughly $35,000.
> 
> Honestly, though, I'm fully invested in the idea of the S3 now. I haven't thought much about the Cayman since she approved this purchase. :wave:


But a Cayman S at $35,000 would be a 2006 or 07, that is a 6-7 year old premium car that could take a small fortune to keep up properly. You would also be stuck with 7+ year old technology. I would have poo'd on that idea too.
I really liked the Cayman and looked into getting one, but the closest dealer is 70 miles away, which would make servicing and warranty work difficult and the biggest thing that kept me away is that they do not have blue-tooth and radio controls on the steering wheel.....I am too used to having those and feel that I couldn't do without that now.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Cyncris said:


> But a Cayman S at $35,000 would be a 2006 or 07, that is a 6-7 year old premium car that could take a small fortune to keep up properly. You would also be stuck with 7+ year old technology. I would have poo'd on that idea too.
> I really liked the Cayman and looked into getting one, but the closest dealer is 70 miles away, which would make servicing and warranty work difficult and the biggest thing that kept me away is that they do not have blue-tooth and radio controls on the steering wheel.....I am too used to having those and feel that I couldn't do without that now.


Well-equipped MY08 units were appearing near that price point several months ago. It didn't help that I was incredibly picky; the car would have to be Macadamia Metallic. I watched one with the *exact* specs I'd want sell on consignment for $35,000, and it was low miles at that. I could've swung a white, black, red, or silver MY08 example long ago for mid-30s. It seems those are the only colors they produced, sadly. 

At the time, it could have been considered five years old. A friend had a 2006 Boxster S for a bit; I realize that's a car you don't go into looking for the trinkets and baubles that you'd find in many other cars of the same vintage. That's just not what the Boxster/ Cayman are about. Sure, the MY14+ Cayman interior is worlds better than the outgoing car, but I was willing to look past that for the experience of the car.

Cost of ownership on a Cayman actually isn't all that bad based on what I've read. It was something I was willing to deal with.


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## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

Dan Halen said:


> I still can't quite make sense of why they're withholding the lineup from its chief market (second only to markets in Asia, perhaps) for so long, and I really can't quite figure out why they're going to stagger trim level releases after the finally get units rolling around March. Production began in Hungary on June 12, and deliveries begin to Europe "in the fall," I believe, for the A3 sedan (with the S3 sedan arriving in those markets in early 2014). It's a new plant, and that involves a serious amount of time to bring on-line and ramp up safely and efficiently- I know that. But 10+ months after production begins at the plant, and we'll just start seeing the full range of trims in the US, one of Audi's self-professed major markets.


this times elebenty-billion

wtf?


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## eastbayrae (Sep 2, 2012)

Sadly we won't like see the RS3 or the rag top. The US gets screwed on model choices by all manufacturers including US makes. We generally get crap.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

eastbayrae said:


> Sadly we won't like see the RS3 or the rag top. The US gets screwed on model choices by all manufacturers including US makes. We generally get crap.


...except for the fact that Audi has already stated the US will get the A3 convertible starting in fall, 2014. 

RS3 is anyones' guess at this point, considering nobody has any clear intel on that car just yet.


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## ProjectA3 (Aug 12, 2005)

I am guessing the S3 will be available around this time next year, it just kinda makes sense.

we heard a rumor that dealerships (i work at one) may get 1 or 2 A3 sedan demos maybe as early as December. 1 could be used as a service loaner and 1 as a sales demo. this would really make a good effort to get cars ordered for customers ASAP instead of customers waiting until march/april when they go on sale and THEN ordering a car to their liking.

I have a 2013 allroad, 2004 R32, and 96 VW Cabrio now and am already strategizing on what i will do.
My allroad has to stay with me until December this year, because my audi employee lease says i have to keep the car at least a year. So i will most likely take that to the local Carmax and sell it to them and hopefully have a little equity in it.
then I'll drive my R32 daily until the S3 arrives and sell the R32 just before or after the S3 is in my hands.
the cabrio stays because thats a paid for show car and only gets driven once a week or so.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

This time next year will almost certainly see the cost of money being much higher, and that sucks. It would be neat if they had some cars on the ground in December; that's the first I've heard of that.


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## tclky (Aug 22, 2012)

ProjectA3 said:


> I....we heard a rumor that dealerships (i work at one) may get 1 or 2 A3 sedan demos maybe as early as December. 1 could be used as a service loaner and 1 as a sales demo. this would really make a good effort to get cars ordered for customers ASAP instead of customers waiting until march/april when they go on sale and THEN ordering a car to their liking.
> 
> ....


That's good news. If I end up buying one it would likely be a factory order so the reduced wait would be welcome.


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## aodmisery (Aug 31, 2013)

the a3 will be my first audi, currently drive a acura. but with audi you can order the specific car you want with the options you want? i ask because with acura they dont let you do that, you kinda have to choose from the models they have at dealer or in the near area


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## Cyncris (Aug 12, 2012)

aodmisery said:


> the a3 will be my first audi, currently drive a acura. but with audi you can order the specific car you want with the options you want? i ask because with acura they dont let you do that, you kinda have to choose from the models they have at dealer or in the near area


It depends on the dealer.
My local dealer is very much that way. They want you to adjust your taste to what they currently have on the lot. So I drive about 120 miles away, where they will offer to order me anything I want, or even search for a CPO car that I would want.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

aodmisery said:


> the a3 will be my first audi, currently drive a acura. but with audi you can order the specific car you want with the options you want? i ask because with acura they dont let you do that, you kinda have to choose from the models they have at dealer or in the near area


Within reason, yes. It's unlikely that we'll see the Audi Exclusive program with the A3, so you won't be able to order _anything_ you want. Factory-specified colors and options, sure- but probably nothing above and beyond that.

I consider that to mean you aren't able to custom-order the car. You can have a dealer place an order on your behalf, sure- but it'll still be a factory-approved pre-defined configuration.


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## BrutusA3 (Jul 10, 2013)

ProjectA3 said:


> we heard a rumor that dealerships (i work at one) may get 1 or 2 A3 sedan demos maybe as early as December. 1 could be used as a service loaner and 1 as a sales demo. this would really make a good effort to get cars ordered for customers ASAP instead of customers waiting until march/april when they go on sale and THEN ordering a car to their liking.


This would be awesome at least it would give us a taste of the car before waiting for spring when they roll into dealerships. Anyway to confirm it with your sources?

B.


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## eastbayrae (Sep 2, 2012)

Travis Grundke said:


> ...except for the fact that Audi has already stated the US will get the A3 convertible starting in fall, 2014.
> 
> RS3 is anyones' guess at this point, considering nobody has any clear intel on that car just yet.


I can wait for an RS3.


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## chiphead (May 12, 2011)

I'd rather Audi lowered their premium packaging prices. Not really interested in their stripper models. As a whole, Audi needs to keep a certain level of exclusivity, and selling a sub $30k stripper model will not burnish their image any. The budget conscious buyers can go for The People's Car.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

chiphead said:


> I'd rather Audi lowered their premium packaging prices. Not really interested in their stripper models. As a whole, Audi needs to keep a certain level of exclusivity, and selling a sub $30k stripper model will not burnish their image any. The budget conscious buyers can go for The People's Car.


Agreed. This is precisely how they should be segmenting the brands, IMO. The inherent risk with the A3 sedan is that it commoditizes the brand without being anything special. The key to making the car a 'big deal' is to price it appropriately but to also make it something special in the eyes of buyer, much like the old MK IV Volkswagens were back around 1999-2000. 

...without the incredibly poor quality, of course. ;-)

You can run into some serious headaches when you bring value buyers into a premium brand: they will demand the sky because they think they're getting a true luxury product and be nothing but a PITA throughout the ownership experience. Service departments hate it because they do nothing but complain about the cost of oil changes and scheduled maintenance.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Travis Grundke said:


> MK IV


:laugh: I expected you of all people to know better, Travis.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Dan Halen said:


> :laugh: I expected you of all people to know better, Travis.


Ohhhh, trust me - I do. The tales of my '00 Jetta GLS VR6 are legendary. Just ask VW Legal. 

But, joking aside, the MK IV was a breakthrough product in the way it made people feel. Compared to the competition, once you stepped inside of one of these (or the B5 Passat for that matter) you felt like you were in a car two classes higher than they were. This has been one of my criticisms of the dumbed-down Jetta and Passat: they're now no more special than your average run of the mill Camry and I would argue decidedly subpar when compared to the new Accord, Mazda 3, Mazda 6, Hyundai Elantra or Sonata. Volkswagen still hasn't gotten the content and design right on these.

An interesting study in the brands is the Volkswagen CC, a car that on the surface looks like it should be a winner. Granted, it's riding on an 8+ year old platform, but I guarantee you that Audi will sell far more A3s at a higher margin than Volkswagen has been selling CCs. I'm curious to see what VW does with the CC in North America once it is refreshed - I find it to be a really interesting product but one that exemplifies VW's overall problem in North America right now: stale product without any killer feature that makes it a better buy than the alternative.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

I was referring to how you typed that. You don't read that as "EM-KAY," do you? Surely not... 

We always used to harass a friend of ours for saying "em-kay four" this or "em-kay five" that.


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## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Dan Halen said:


> I was referring to how you typed that. You don't read that as "EM-KAY," do you? Surely not...
> 
> We always used to harass a friend of ours for saying "em-kay four" this or "em-kay five" that.


Ha! The "em-kay" meme is one that will outlast everyone at TCL. 

No, rest assured I have never, ever, used that pronunciation in any way other than as a perjorative.


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## ProjectA3 (Aug 12, 2005)

aodmisery said:


> the a3 will be my first audi, currently drive a acura. but with audi you can order the specific car you want with the options you want? i ask because with acura they dont let you do that, you kinda have to choose from the models they have at dealer or in the near area


If ANY Audi dealer tells you that you can't do this, go to another one. EVERY dealership has the ability to order a car from scratch for any customer.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

ProjectA3 said:


> If ANY Audi dealer tells you that you can't do this, go to another one. EVERY dealership has the ability to order a car from scratch for any customer.


It *does* depend, in some capacity, on available allocation, though, right? I have an expectation that, if a dealer takes an order for a car for me, it should be available in reasonable time. You can't just leap-frog your allocation, right? I know the savvy guys can always find a way to get it done, but they're probably the ones that move enough volume to not need that skill, anyway.


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## Leke (Jul 29, 2013)

Dan Halen said:


> It *does* depend, in some capacity, on available allocation, though, right? I have an expectation that, if a dealer takes an order for a car for me, it should be available in reasonable time. You can't just leap-frog your allocation, right? I know the savvy guys can always find a way to get it done, but they're probably the ones that move enough volume to not need that skill, anyway.


You're right about allocation. Since it is largely based upon the dealership's previous sales numbers, their ability (or lack thereof in this scenario) can be used as an informal barometer to gauge that dealership's overall performance, quality, reputation, etc.


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