# ****The Official TRACKDAY,AUTOCROSS,ROAD RACING Discussion/Info 1.8t thread****



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

*Thought it would be great to start a discussion /info ...
ALL 1.8T frames including swaps . 
ALL Track related talk,questions ,photos videos etc...*


hX27w turbo (GT2860r equivalent)

This turbo seems to be great for Track . Quick spool ,plenty of power .
im not sure how it do on a mk4 frame??




































when old tranny shift fork broke :thumbdown:






cant find other videos but ill have new ones from this weeknd :thumbup::thumbup:


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## Mike Pauciullo (Jan 8, 2009)

Shouldn't we go troll in the drag forum?


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## Mike Pauciullo (Jan 8, 2009)

If you have extra money I would get a set of DSS's.


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

I'll play...

Used to have this:










Now have this:



















Mostly doing autocross now, will return to road racing once I can afford a tow vehicle and trailer.

MK4 (obviously), gutted, down to ~2,100 pounds wet
AWP, re-built block with IE drop-in rods
02J, Peloquin, fx400, smfw, Raxles, DieselGeek
Gonzo GTT K03 turbo, GTTx K04 turbo going on soon

Willwood Dynalite Pro, still testing out pads
Dunlop slicks, Kumho V710 r-comps, or Dunlop Z1 star specs depending on event


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Jeff, what pads are you experimenting with? And are you going with a square or staggered compound?

I'm thinking carbotech XP12 all around on mine (low 2700 lbs wet for now), but I don't want to change the bias too much and start locking the rear first. Instinctively, I'm starting with the square compound, unless I have a reference point to suggest going straight to a staggered setup from the start.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

4ceFed4 said:


> Mostly doing autocross now, will return to road racing once I can afford a tow vehicle and trailer.
> 
> MK4 (obviously), gutted, down to ~2,100 pounds wet
> AWP, re-built block with IE drop-in rods
> ...


eace::thumbup::thumbup:
Hell yeah 
Sick bro!! 

2100lbs?? Wow awesome!! 
How do you like the z1? I'm running r888 
I really wanna build a splinter. Did you make yours? Not sure what to use. .. Alumalite?? 

Awesome toy u got there bro:beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Jeff, what pads are you experimenting with? And are you going with a square or staggered compound?
> 
> I'm thinking carbotech XP12 all around on mine (low 2700 lbs wet for now), but I don't want to change the bias too much and start locking the rear first. Instinctively, I'm starting with the square compound, unless I have a reference point to suggest going straight to a staggered setup from the start.



I was hopping you popped in here max 

I'm only on 10.1" rotors on hawk blue/motul 600 No brake fade!! Yet lol


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

BR_337 said:


> eace::thumbup::thumbup:
> Hell yeah
> Sick bro!!
> 
> ...


Thanks man :beer:

There is a lot of weight yanked out of the car, always looking to do more tho :laugh:

I use the Z1s for the limited amount of street driving I do, wet autocross, and HPDE. Coming from the stickier and wider race tires, they aren't exactly a confidence booster, and they have a little trouble holding on for the first three forward gears.

I inherited the splitter with the shell. PO built race yachts and had extensive experience working in fiber. He utilized a foam core for the integrated splitter and undertray, with two layers of carbon all around it. He wrapped the leading edge and underside with a layer of kevlar for a little extra durability. If I were making one from scratch, I would say either aluminum or plywood, depending on your budget.



Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Jeff, what pads are you experimenting with? And are you going with a square or staggered compound?
> 
> I'm thinking carbotech XP12 all around on mine (low 2700 lbs wet for now), but I don't want to change the bias too much and start locking the rear first. Instinctively, I'm starting with the square compound, unless I have a reference point to suggest going straight to a staggered setup from the start.


Hi Max! I'm starting with the Wilwood pads that were included with the kit and a set of EBC yellows. Both EPC and Hawk have a good number of their compounds available in the #7816 size, so once I unload the new Hawk Porsche pads I have I may pick up some DTCs to try out as well. In keeping the small stock rear rotors with the EBC yellows I've been running, I don't think bias change should be an issue as the rears will continue to do next to nothing.


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## clarkma5 (Mar 2, 2002)

Very cool! Just checking in here, nothing too amazing, my GTI has doubled as my road car and occasional HPDE-er for years (I've got 8 trackdays under my belt in the GTI, plus a day on the Nordschleife in a Rent4Ring car  ) Hoping to pick up a Mk7 in a year or so and then the '04 will get stripped out and really focused on the track stuff B) I've been very happy with this car in near-stock form on the track, being just about the lightest GTI from the factory you can get (scales say 2750 lbs. with full interior and fluids) thanks to having no sunroof or other options. Last track day I went to I had a great discussion with an instructor about suspension dynamics and he applauded what I've done, turned my whole philosophy on tire pressures upside down, and said "you really need a rear sway bar", so that's on the list, along with SEAT Leon Cupra R rear bushings. Going to an 11" rear rotor soon to pair with my 12.3" fronts and then that will probably be it for this car in its road-legal guise.

Buttonwillow Raceway (4x)
Laguna Seca (1x)
Pacific Raceway (1x)
The Ridge (2x)

Ever since I showed up late to my Laguna Seca trackday (first one that required numbers), I've been #142. I know, so glamorous done up in automotive duct tape. Here I am all rolled over in the corkscrew (back when it was on stock springs. Check out muh body rolls yo)


__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view










And a video from an HPDE session at Pacific Raceways in Washington


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

BR_337 said:


> I was hopping you popped in here max
> 
> I'm only on 10.1" rotors on hawk blue/motul 600 No brake fade!! Yet lol


My car is a bit heavier than you FWD guys (27xx lbs) and I think that I need something really agressive in coefficient of friction but with good cold bite. That's why Carbotech's XP lineup is what I'm going with since they offer amazing initial bite characteristics for their aggressive track compounds. I didn't have good luck with the Hawk Blues in my Evo and will not run them in my cars anymore. 

BTW, I would not suggest doing a road racing front splitter out of Alumilite unless you're confident to never go off track. Alumilite will easily get damaged with any agricultural excursion and is not repairable (also on the expensive side compared to plywood for example). IMO, alumilite is a good splitter material for an autocross or time trial car where it's low impact -- road racing, hillclimb, or rally, go with something stronger and repairable (because you will damage it). :beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> My car is a bit heavier than you FWD guys (27xx lbs) and I think that I need something really agressive in coefficient of friction but with good cold bite. That's why Carbotech's XP lineup is what I'm going with since they offer amazing initial bite characteristics for their aggressive track compounds. I didn't have good luck with the Hawk Blues in my Evo and will not run them in my cars anymore.
> 
> BTW, I would not suggest doing a road racing front splitter out of Alumilite unless you're confident to never go off track. Alumilite will easily get damaged with any agricultural excursion and is not repairable (also on the expensive side compared to plywood for example). IMO, alumilite is a good splitter material for an autocross or time trial car where it's low impact -- road racing, hillclimb, or rally, go with something stronger and repairable (because you will damage it). :beer:


No ! i don't plan on road race.at least not anytime soon. I just wanna do track events like trackdays and time trials .

I don't know anything about fiberglass .so i don't know whats my best option


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

clarkma5 said:


> Very cool! Just checking in here, nothing too amazing, my GTI has doubled as my road car and occasional HPDE-er for years (I've got 8 trackdays under my belt in the GTI, plus a day on the Nordschleife in a Rent4Ring car  ) Hoping to pick up a Mk7 in a year or so and then the '04 will get stripped out and really focused on the track stuff B) I've been very happy with this car in near-stock form on the track, being just about the lightest GTI from the factory you can get (scales say 2750 lbs. with full interior and fluids) thanks to having no sunroof or other options. Last track day I went to I had a great discussion with an instructor about suspension dynamics and he applauded what I've done, turned my whole philosophy on tire pressures upside down, and said "you really need a rear sway bar", so that's on the list, along with SEAT Leon Cupra R rear bushings. Going to an 11" rear rotor soon to pair with my 12.3" fronts and then that will probably be it for this car in its road-legal guise.
> 
> Buttonwillow Raceway (4x)
> Laguna Seca (1x)
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

BR_337 said:


> No ! i don't plan on road race.at least not anytime soon. I just wanna do track events like trackdays and time trials .
> 
> I don't know anything about fiberglass .so i don't know whats my best option


I'm using the term road racing as an umbrella for any kind of circuit racing (HPDE/track days, and wheel-to-wheel competition). Going off track, or clipping tall curbing with the inside front will bend an alumilite core and damage it permanently. However, doing the same with plywood, abs plastic, or carbon fiber will likely not do the same damage or be repairable. 

My recommendation is plywood for a budget splitter that will take a beating and be disposable without being too painful to you or your wallet.


PS: Awesome thread topic BTW :thumbup:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I'm using the term road racing as an umbrella for any kind of circuit racing (HPDE/track days, and wheel-to-wheel competition). Going off track, or clipping tall curbing with the inside front will bend an alumilite core and damage it permanently. However, doing the same with plywood, abs plastic, or carbon fiber will likely not do the same damage or be repairable.
> 
> My recommendation is plywood for a budget splitter that will take a beating and be disposable without being too painful to you or your wallet.
> 
> ...


Oh gotcha! ... Plywood would be great. I might actually try to make one by Friday before trackday on sat. 
What size doh ? 3/4 or 1/2 .? 

Thanks bud.:beer:


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

I would say 1/2" tops. It shouldn't extend that far out that it has room to flex.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

4ceFed4 said:


> I would say 1/2" tops. It shouldn't extend that far out that it has room to flex.


I see what you mean by looking at yours. .
Now , is it necessary to have more down force (rear Spoiler ) with the addition of the splitter? Will it make the rear end more tail happy?
Thanks :beer:


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

BR_337 said:


> I see what you mean by looking at yours. .
> Now , is it necessary to have more down force (rear Spoiler ) with the addition of the splitter? Will it make the rear end more tail happy?
> Thanks


That's a very involved topic. The most simple approach is to tack on one piece of aero at a time, so that you can evaluate the effect it has on vehicle dynamics as a whole. Personally, my car feels very light in the front at speed, and traction can disappear quickly on downward grades. Front aero helps to keep the front tires planted on the pavement and alleviate those issues.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

What Jeff said ^^^ The rule of thumb is 2x the ground clearance for the lip horizontal extension past the airdam. Obviously, there will be practical limitations from the ideal and you most likely will have to compromise from there (easy trailer access come to mind). Good support is key as you want to avoid flex. If you're going for the plywood option, a good pointer is to make sure to get birch plywood and to waterproof it with some coating. 

Here is a solid plywood DIY to use as a guide:
http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...642-diy-plywood-front-splitter-evo-8-9-a.html


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

BR_337 said:


> ... with the addition of the splitter? Will it make the rear end more tail happy?


With the front splitter alone, it will definitely make you feel that the front end has become more planted and the rear becoming looser (a balance and feel thing). With the splitter being functional, you're adding front grip (not in a mechanical way, but via aero) - this will allow you to push farther than before and in turns reach the mechanical grip limit of the unassisted rear (in terms of aero). Therefore as Jeff pointed out, get a feel for how much the splitter adds, and affect overall feel, then add rear aero help accordingly.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

4ceFed4 said:


> That's a very involved topic. The most simple approach is to tack on one piece of aero at a time, so that you can evaluate the effect it has on vehicle dynamics as a whole. Personally, my car feels very light in the front at speed, and traction can disappear quickly on downward grades. Front aero helps to keep the front tires planted on the pavement and alleviate those issues.


That makes a lot of sense Jeff. I'll start one at the time :beer:



Marcus_Aurelius said:


> What Jeff said ^^^ The rule of thumb is 2x the ground clearance for the lip horizontal extension past the airdam. Obviously, there will be practical limitations from the ideal and you most likely will have to compromise from there (easy trailer access come to mind). Good support is key as you want to avoid flex. If you're going for the plywood option, a good pointer is to make sure to get birch plywood and to waterproof it with some coating.
> 
> Here is a solid plywood DIY to use as a guide:
> http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...642-diy-plywood-front-splitter-evo-8-9-a.html


I'll use the link as base.
Thanks max


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> With the front splitter alone, it will definitely make you feel that the front end has become more planted and the rear becoming looser (a balance and feel thing). With the splitter being functional, you're adding front grip (not in a mechanical way, but via aero) - this will allow you to push farther than before and in turns reach the mechanical grip limit of the unassisted rear (in terms of aero). Therefore as Jeff pointed out, get a feel for how much the splitter adds, and affect overall feel, then add rear aero help accordingly.


Understood.I'm excited now  
Thank You sir


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Just got back from fun day at the track.
I'll upload videos tomorrow :thumbup::thumbup:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

*Ok guys,
THE FIRST 2 LAPS WAS WARMING UP AND LEARNING THE TRACK.but as u can tell ..i was able to pick it up pretty quickly.

ENJOY! 
First time on this track
first track day on Wavetrac and fx400
15lbs of boost
INTERMEDIATE run grup

*







2nd. 6:05 was close lol :thumbup::laugh:






*This was last run of the day. They bumped me to the advance grup. (first time on this track:thumbup: )*






*Conclusion: LSD MADE A HUGE DIFFERENCE :thumbup: to be honest ,i didnt expected that much difference. Thought it was more of a hype thing:facepalm: But man.. coming off the corners . i could get on throttle and not have HUGE torque steer to the right like before. Now both wheels are equal..SO MUCH BETTER eace: *

*plenty of fun at only 15psi  *


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

awesome vids im in the middle of watching. turn ur key on before startling car lol :laugh:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

elRey said:


> awesome vids im in the middle of watching. turn ur key on before startling car lol :laugh:


I know...:laugh::facepalm:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

:thumbup:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

little improvements ...:thumbup::thumbup:

cant wait to try it

seats 

























SPLITTER :thumbup::thumbup:



















































































































let me know what yall think :beer::beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Looks good, and will serve its purpose. I like the brake cooling duct integration. The only thing I'd do differently is mount the ducts on the inside to avoid creating turbulance and flow separation. Great DIY work, and the best part is if you leave it behind, it won't hurt you because it didn't cost a fortune. :thumbup::thumbup:

I'm pretty sure you might need some struts or cables to solidly brace the leading edge of the splitter so it doesn't droop and sag from the forces in play dynamically (I prefer the cable idea for supporting the front of the splitter since it can be done cheaply with a few feet of cables, a couple of alunminum turnbuckles, fender washers, and bolts). Testing will tell you how much edge bracing is needed (3-point usually does the job). :beer:

PS: I need to get onboard and post some stuff about my car. I have some cool stuff going on right now!


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Max thanks bub. 
What do you mean by running the brake duck on the "inside" ?? 

Can't wait to try it.  
As far as support the front end.. Bro, believe me when i tell you. I can stand on that s.o.b . that thing is sooo solid.
Don't think i need to worry about any kinda flexing . :thumbup:

And yes agreed. Didn't cost much at all. I already have another one ready as a back up 

Pls post some of the tt. Love that thing


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

What I'm saying is the NACA ducts or scoops are by definition low drag items. They are by design suppose to be mounted/bolted on backside or flush with the surface in contact with the airflow. Nothing to loose sleep over, just pointing out that having the flanges on the outer surface of splitter is creating drag and can be improved on (bolting the flange on the back side of the splitter should do the trick). :beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> What I'm saying is the NACA ducts or scoops are by definition low drag items. They are by design suppose to be mounted/bolted on backside or flush with the surface in contact with the airflow. Nothing to loose sleep over, just pointing out that having the flanges on the outer surface of splitter is creating drag and can be improved on (bolting the flange on the back side of the splitter should do the trick). :beer:


Oh gotcha! 
I'll do it on the next one :thumbup:
The first one was really a trial. I'm gonna make another other soon. Want to maybe make it a little wider . 

Thanks max. 
And post your pics :laugh:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Car is a 2001 Audi TT Quattro

-GTT-x hybrid 
- AEM infinty ECU 
-SEM manifold 
-E85-fueled
-Revalved H&R RSS Clubsports with 700/1300 lbs springs
-Custom ball joint extending plates allowing up to -5 degree of static camber
-Custom roll bar
-17x10" FN01-RC wrapped in 315 Hoosier A6 (default tires are 295 wide, but I need the taller gearing of the 315s because I'm running out of gears
-Stripped down to high 2600 lbs


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## clarkma5 (Mar 2, 2002)

What a monster! Love the partial Boxster-Spyder look of it too. Are you Haldex or FWD or what?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

clarkma5 said:


> What a monster! Love the partial Boxster-Spyder look of it too. Are you Haldex or FWD or what?


Thank-you! It's a quattro, so AWD via Haldex all day, every day.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Hell yea Max! 
Car looks great
Can't wait to see it on the track


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

test fitting new Steering wheel :thumbup:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Nice Freddy, what diameter did you go for?


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Nice Freddy, what diameter did you go for?


thanks Max 
13'' 

*what you think about this *

Have seen NIGE's track buid from clubGti?
heres what he told me



Nige said:


> Splitter, I like it.
> 
> Obviously, I`m a little biased
> 
> ...


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

You like big steering wheels... going with a 330mm unit. After being spoiled by a CT9A EVO surgical steering sharpness, small diameter wheels for me to alter/improve the steering response. 

I don't pretend to know much about fluid dynamics, but I think he may be thinking of it in terms of flow only, and discarding the pressures involved. There are dynamic pressure differentials that I think will be working in your advantage, forcing air into the ducts. 

One easy way to test would be to temporarily plumb a spare MAF housing/sensor at the end of the ducting and log it. That way after a test drive at highway speed you'll have a pretty good set of data proving how well they're working (or not) instead of trusting me or him. :laugh:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> You like big steering wheels... going with a 330mm unit. After being spoiled by a CT9A EVO surgical steering sharpness, small diameter wheels for me to alter/improve the steering response.
> 
> I don't pretend to know much about fluid dynamics, but I think he may be thinking of it in terms of flow only, and discarding the pressures involved. There are dynamic pressure differentials that I think will be working in your advantage, forcing air into the ducts.
> 
> One easy way to test would be to temporarily plumb a spare MAF housing/sensor at the end of the ducting and log it. That way after a test drive at highway speed you'll have a pretty good set of data proving how well they're working (or not) instead of trusting me or him. :laugh:


The VWM Autobahn i had before was 355 mm 14" .i was a little big for my taste. Think 330mm is perfect.Though I still need to drive on it .

Don't think i would go thru the trouble. I have seen few race cars using this duct method. I might add some smaller ones in the front bumber in the future. That's depending how brakes Will act on the track u know..


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

That's a low pressure zone. You should pull your ducts from above the splitter. Added benefit for adding winglets to the sides of the splitter to funnel the air in to the "bumper" area


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> That's a low pressure zone. You should pull your ducts from above the splitter. Added benefit for adding winglets to the sides of the splitter to funnel the air in to the "bumper" area


what do you mean exactly pat? move ducts to Front bumber? winglets whats that ?
:facepalm: sorry if ignorant question 
:beer::beer:


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Sorry, I should have been more clear.

The goal of the splitter is to create a low pressure area under the car. It restricts air being reflected around the bumper from rolling underneath the car causing front end lift. A side effect of this is the area above the splitter ( already a high pressure area) increases in pressure.

Your NACA ducts under the splitter won't pick up a whole lot of air flow. Laminar flow under the splitter well just let it skip over the duct, and being low pressure, it won't be forcd in. If you put your ducts above the splitter, you will have a very high pressure feed forcing air through the ducts. You could put them right below your turn signals and it would work fine 

By winglets, I mean something like this









A winglet catches the air rolling of the front edge of the splitter, and forces it over the splitter, instead of just bypassing it. A canard will do the same thing, but the canard will also add downforce, because of it's angle of attack (pointed up), where the winglet is just straight up and down (like the ends of big wings)

Also, for the splitter to be as effective as possible, it needs to be as low as possible. And adding rake, raising the rear up slightly will help increase the rate of airflow under the car, increasing down force.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

By the way, anyone want to try out a torquey intake manifold? 26" long aeb sized intake runners, with .25 liter plenum and stock sized throttle flange?


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Ok now i get it 

already have another one ready to be cut /painted and mounted. so ill make these modifications ..

Thanks a lot Pat :thumbup::beer::beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> By the way, anyone want to try out a torquey intake manifold? 26" long aeb sized intake runners, with .25 liter plenum and stock sized throttle flange?


Damn wish i was AEB


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Sorry, I should have been more clear.
> 
> The goal of the splitter is to create a low pressure area under the car. It restricts air being reflected around the bumper from rolling underneath the car causing front end lift. A side effect of this is the area above the splitter ( already a high pressure area) increases in pressure.
> 
> ...


Exactly, Just came across this thread and was about to post the same thing, but Pat beat me to it. Air ducts feeding from the bottom side of a splitter will have very little flow as that is a low pressure area as mentioned.

Put the ducts intake on the car's vertical valance, just above the top plane of the splitter, and you will get a ton of flow. Top side of a splitter = high pressure, bottom side = low pressure. 

An excellent Technical book for any one starting to experiment in Downforce is called: " Competition Car Downforce " by Simon McBeath. Forward by some dude named " Gordon Murray "...whoever he is   ISBN 0-85429-977-7


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Regarding splitter materiel. Some of our hillclimb guys are using Aluminum Honeycomb panels. You can sometimes find discard sheets at Aircraft Supply Depots near major airports at good prices. You can find some amazing deals there. We found a 4' x 8' sheet for $200. One corner was slightly damaged and it was sold as a " Reject ". 

Aluminum honeycomb is ridiculously light and strong. How strong? It supported the weight of a 3,800 lb Trans-AM when my buddy missed a turn at Knox Mountain and climbed the outside concrete Jo-Jo barriers. Entire front weight of car rested on the splitter. No damage other than some scraped paint. Needless to say that splitter was VERY well supported.

If you're handy with Fiberglass you can also build a splitter out of Carbon Fiber and Kevlar. With some proper thought and Technical guidance ( Get the Simon McBeath book ) , even amateurs can build some very effective downforce devices.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Regarding pads. A lot of the guys that run Track Days up here run PFC's. Heavy and fast cars go straight to the top and run PFC 01's or 03's ( or the new equivalent ). Amatuer racers in a weekend warrior car can actually put as much heat stress on the brakes as a professional in a full blown race car. The reason being that the weekend track day racer normally does not have enough cooling to the brakes and their brake hardware ( BBK rotors etc ) are not of the same size or quality of dedicated race car.

I've found that most brake Tech lines underestimate the requirements of pads for a weekend warrior because of this. Even companies like WilWood. WilWood pads are Meh in my experiences. Hawk Blues are old tech pads that will eat pads when too hot or cold. Same with some Porterfields.

PFC 01's and 03's are very rotor friendly, even when cold. Reasonable stopping power at lower rotor temps as well. Easy to modulate. 

Rotors. If you can, upgrade to a real racing rotor. Most OEM street rotors and High Performance rotors are made of too soft of an alloy for proper racing. Racing rotors are made of much harder and better alloys than OEM rotors to reduce wear and be able to handle the massive heat cycling that racing generates. WilWood, Coleman, Howe, AP, Alcon all make proper racing rotors. Check out Circle track suppliers for good prices on brake parts. 

One of my favorites is http://pitstopusa.com/. You can buy AP 60 vane " J-Hook " rotors there for as little as $115 each.

http://pitstopusa.com/i-5071302-ap-racing-60-vane-late-model-j-hook-brake-rotor-rh-1-25-rotor-thickness-12-19-diameter-8-bolt-x-7-bolt-circle.html

I think most of you already know this, but it bears repeating... Stay away from ALL of the aftermarket *drilled* rotors ( PowerSlot, Stop Tech, etc ) . They will crack from heat fatigue. I've seen some explode on track days. Exceptions are purpose built steel racing rotors by Porsche, Brembo, AP etc. But these are going to cost you around $500+ each for the good stuff. And you still have to monitor these closely for cracking.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Chickenman35 said:


> Exactly, Just came across this thread and was about to post the same thing, but Pat beat me to it. Air ducts feeding from the bottom side of a splitter will have very little flow as that is a low pressure area as mentioned.
> 
> Put on the car's vertical valance just above the top plane of the splitter and you will get a ton of flow. Top side of a splitter = high pressure, bottom side = low pressure.
> 
> An excellent Technical book for any one starting to experiment in Downforce is called: " Competition Car Downforce " by Simon McBeath. Forward by some dude named " Gorden Murray "...whoever he is   ISBN 0-85429-977-7


Thanks for taking the time to post good info brother ... 
thats a great link you posted too :thumbup::thumbup:

will keep it in mind when i get rotors ..
i am running halk blue race pds . i get plenty of stopping power .though im pretty light . 
i had a little bit of brake fade on my last trackday due to the fact of the track having 3 small straights not having too much time to cool brakes .that's why i decided on ducts..

I am ok at a track like Reobling road .even though i hit 150+ mph theres plenty of time to cool the brakes ... where the last track i only hit about 110mph 

:beer::beer:


----------



## clarkma5 (Mar 2, 2002)

My apologies for the cross-post, but thought this was pertinent to this thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-flesh-out-my-HPDE4-TT-NASA-GTS-MkIV-GTI-idea Help me flesh out a game plan for turning my '04 GTI into a dedicated track car.

(Plus this is just a great thread that deserves a bump)


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Sorry, I should have been more clear.
> 
> T
> 
> ...



Just thought I'd throw in some pointers about winglets here. They are designed to prevent loss of pressure differential above and under the wing. Some 90% of the lift in cruise is caused by the low pressure over the wings induced by design (Bernoulli's Principle) and the relative higher pressure under the wing want to go there to equalize, hense the winglets. This loss of pressure differential is reduced in flare due to the proximity of ground, called ground effect. 

Interesting observation; the trailing engine cowling design has a Z pattern on the 787 inspired by Owls as they have the most silent wings for hunting rodents at night. The Z pattern breaks the trailing turbulence which make soundwaves. 

:beer:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Chickenman35 said:


> Regarding pads. A lot of the guys that run Track Days up here run PFC's. Heavy and fast cars go straight to the top and run PFC 01's or 03's ( or the new equivalent ). Amatuer racers in a weekend warrior car can actually put as much heat stress on the brakes as a professional in a full blown race car. The reason being that the weekend track day racer normally does not have enough cooling to the brakes and their brake hardware ( BBK rotors etc ) are not of the same size or quality of dedicated race car.
> 
> I've found that most brake Tech lines underestimate the requirements of pads for a weekend warrior because of this. Even companies like WilWood. WilWood pads are Meh in my experiences. Hawk Blues are old tech pads that will eat pads when too hot or cold. Same with some Porterfields.
> 
> ...


I've ran 2 AP rotors 330x28 last years which all cracked after some heavy trackdays and I decided to buy another brand off Ebay UK this year. Alloy seems to be a bit softer but it havent cracked yet. No indications at all. I can also recommend Ferodo Racing DS2500 pads as they have never faded for me and last 50% longer than the DS3000 ones.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Gulfstream said:


> I've ran 2 AP rotors 330x28 last years which all cracked after some heavy trackdays and I decided to buy another brand off Ebay UK this year. Alloy seems to be a bit softer but it havent cracked yet. No indications at all. I can also recommend Ferodo Racing DS2500 pads as they have never faded for me and last 50% longer than the DS3000 ones.


Have any of guys used or herd about wilwood s BP20 pads ?? 

They came with MMP kit i bought


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Chickenman35 said:


> I think most of you already know this, but it bears repeating... Stay away from ALL of the aftermarket *drilled* rotors ( PowerSlot, Stop Tech, etc ) . They will crack from heat fatigue. I've seen some explode on track days. Exceptions are purpose built steel racing rotors by Porsche, Brembo, AP etc. But these are going to cost you around $500+ each for the good stuff. And you still have to monitor these closely for cracking.


Very true!! My brother's 996 turbo front rotors are cracked in every hole.:thumbdown:


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Ok so...
After my last trackday at TLGP brakes became very low and spongy. 
So, i blead the brakes multiple times with not a whole lot of success. i went ahead and signed up for Road Atlanta
with the addition of the front splitter and brakes ducks ,later modifed to the front bumper:thumbup:

Well, all i can is..i had some scary moments with brake pedal going ALMOST to the floor.:banghead: while still heel toeing..shifted into wrong gear a few times as you can imagine. 

As you can tell i was letting on turn 9. (back straight) 
Boost was Wg pressure 15lbs .

















I still was able to pull decent times ..1:49 ( nasa proam guys do about 1:45 . Couldn't push more due to my brake pedal been so low... 
It was my fist time at Road Atlanta too .so wasn't bad . my brothers 600whp 996 best was 2:01 (of course he's a beginner. 4 trackdays only)


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

After some research and few words with guys here on the forums.. 
I bought a T4 eurovan 25.4mm alumminun master clylinder vs 22mm i had in the car ..

Went ahead and bench bled and installed it . 
Wow.. what a difference Yall. i Haven't even blead to lines and already a huge difference. I can't push the brake pedal beyond 25% unlike before where I could push it all the way down to the floor with car being on or off. 

bad Master Cylinder :thumbdown::thumbdown:

*People say 10.1" with race pads is enough for mk2 . And i agree. But, with 20v and my driving skills improving fast... 
I think I've reached the limit of the OEM brakes.. I know i had a faulty MC , but i dont think there's much left of it ,for me.

So, i'll be taking advantage of the end of the season.. 
and pulled the trigger to upgrade not only MC ,but Calipers too :thumbup:

Time to become faster!! With more stopping power and boost will go up to 17lbs . 
I'm eager to see what times i can pull at Road Atlanta*
















































and this 




















should have brakes installed this week


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## clarkma5 (Mar 2, 2002)

BR_337 said:


> Very true!! My brother's 996 turbo front rotors are cracked in every hole.:thumbdown:


Interesting that you'd say that, are they genuine Porsche rotors? Porsche's hole pattern is proprietary and while I avoid all slotted and drilled rotors for cracking and warping reasons (I recall at Fastivus 2010 riding along in someone's MkIV R32 with aftermarket slotted rotors, and feeling his rotors warp more and more each time he hit the pedal. They were shot before the day was out), Porsche rotors was the one exception I made in my mind.


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

clarkma5 said:


> Interesting that you'd say that, are they genuine Porsche rotors? Porsche's hole pattern is proprietary and while I avoid all slotted and drilled rotors for cracking and warping reasons, Porsche rotors was the one exception I made in my mind.


i believe they are NOT factory rotors .. i also genuine wont crack :thumbup:


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

BR_337 said:


> Have any of guys used or herd about wilwood s BP20 pads ??
> 
> They came with MMP kit i bought


They're kinda.... Meh. For the speeds that you are reaching on your Track Days I would go for a dedicated Racing pad such as PFC's. BP20's are fine for Autocross and " some " Hillclimbs on a light car. They can still be used on the street..which tells you something about their limitations. 

BTW, what brake fluid are you using? Motul RBF 600 or RBF 660 are very, very good. You'll never boil that stuff and price is reasonable for a true racing fluid.


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

where did you get the MC from? i want one!!


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Chickenman35 said:


> They're kinda.... Meh. For the speeds that you are reaching on your Track Days I would go for a dedicated Racing pad such as PFC's. BP20's are fine for Autocross and " some " Hillclimbs on a light car. They can still be used on the street..which tells you something about their limitations.
> 
> BTW, what brake fluid are you using? Motul RBF 600 or RBF 660 are very, very good. You'll never boil that stuff and price is reasonable for a true racing fluid.


i was using 600 now 660:thumbup: 

Yeah youre right ! I figured BP20's where street/track grade. 

Does Pfc makes pads for powerlites ??
ive only seen Ferodo ds2500 or hawk DTC .. 
i only have experience with hawk blues 

of coarse , i want best bang for the buck


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Vegeta Gti said:


> where did you get the MC from? i want one!!


http://www.status-vw.co.uk/t4-van/b...e-master-cylinder-vw-t4-1996-2003-no-abs.html

night a day difference bro:thumbup:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

I'm 22.5 audi. .. but better is better. I'm going from 10 to 11 as we speak up front lol.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Vegeta Gti said:


> I'm 22.5 audi. .. but better is better. I'm going from 10 to 11 as we speak up front lol.


Hell yeah! You shoul bro!.. 
With all that power you got :laugh:

I'm gonna try 10.1" with the wilwoods. If not enough ..I'll go to 11 but i think Hope I'll be ok :thumbup:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

my right front on my 10's is starting to drag and sieze so i figured why not. I am going to change my BOV to the new Tial for road racing, and turn the boost down if we don't get boost by gear setup in my car soon.

I would kill to go willwood...i just don't have thast kind of money cos i would go wilwood alla round lol.

I need to get some motul fluid, i've got a stock pile of ATE blue racing fluid i need to use up.

Tire wise are you running street comps, dot R's or slicks? what size? what boost levels are you running currently?


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Vegeta Gti said:


> my right front on my 10's is starting to drag and sieze so i figured why not. I am going to change my BOV to the new Tial for road racing, and turn the boost down if we don't get boost by gear setup in my car soon.
> 
> I would kill to go willwood...i just don't have thast kind of money cos i would go wilwood alla round lol.
> 
> ...


Gotcha! I feel ya bro. The only reason I'm getting wilwoods. now is cause its a Christmas gift from my father in law. He thinks i have a screw loose , and really wants to make sure I'm safe :facepalm:
Other wise, i would have to save for few months...

People say ATE blue is better than motul because it's moisture free unlike Motul 600or 660 . I might switch so i don't have to bleed the brakes that often ..

I'm running toyo r888's 205/50/15 . i would like to go a little wider but they only about $160 in that size u know..
Been running on wg presure 15lbs . but with a little more stopping power..I'm going up to 17lbs


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

BR_337 said:


> (Snip)
> People say ATE blue is better than Motul because it's moisture free unlike Motul 600or 660 . I might switch so i don't have to bleed the brakes that often ..


All Glycol based brake fluids, DOT 3, 4, and 5.1, are hygroscopic. IE: They will absorb water to a certain extent. That's why they list Wet and Dry boiling points. ATE is no different. It still absorbs water, but apparently at a slower rate than Motul.


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

BR_337 said:


> i was using 600 now 660:thumbup:
> 
> Yeah youre right ! I figured BP20's where street/track grade.
> 
> ...


Ah yes... The infamous Hawk Blues :facepalm: I was never too fond of those. Older technology and they love to eat rotors when they operate out of their temperature range. Better products on the Market these days.

Regarding Powerlites and PFC, I'd have to look it up. That's why I always prefer Superlites as they use an Industry wide racing pad size ( 7320 ). Reasonable prices as well for the base Models. Of course you can't beat a gift price. 

Powerlites are a 7912 Pad according to WilWood.

Edit: Looks like the 7912 may be a Miata Spec Series size... still looking.

CarboTech makes pads in this size as does Ferodo and Cobalt. You can get Ferodo in DS2500 and the new DSUNO.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Chickenman35 said:


> Ah yes... The infamous Hawk Blues :facepalm: I was never too fond of those. Older technology and they love to eat rotors when they operate out of their temperature range. Better products on the Market these days.
> 
> Regarding Powerlites and PFC, I'd have to look it up. That's why I always prefer Superlites as they use an Industry wide racing pad size ( 7320 ). Reasonable prices as well for the base Models. Of course you can't beat a gift price.
> 
> ...


Hawk blues did eat my rotors pretty good. Even though ,they where auper old.
Ok .. I'll into fedoro and carbotech. How about hawk DTC?

Thanks for the input brother


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

my last set of dedicated track pads were Hawk HT-10 and i liked them alot. i run HPS now cos the HP+ is no longer available in most sizes :\ but for track days..i may be looking into a new pad. def enjoy seeing more input from different manafacturers you guys are running, something we need more of in here.

can we get a list of your guys cars?

sayyy....


location and local tracks
Model and generation
curb weight with driver
hp/torque
dedicated track or street/track
fuel type
engine mods
brakes
suspension

something like that?


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

@ Vegeta :thumbup:

Location: Atlanta
Tracks: Road Atlanta ,Atlanta motorsports park, Barber Motorsports park, TLGP and Roebling Road.
Make: VW 91 mk2 Gti 
Weight: 1900lbs or so..
HP: 280-300whp
Dedicated Trackcar with little weekend drives 
Fuel : 93pump and 100when tracking for safety
Engine: AWP, Hx27w turbo with supporting mods 
Transmission: 02M 6speed, Wavetrac LSD, Fx400 ,Singlemass Fw, USP steel shift forks ,Custom axles made by: Shawn Dezego
Suspension: St Coilovers ,28mm rear sway bar / upper adjustable towerBrace , poly bushing all around 
Brakes: Wilwoods 4 pot , PB20 pads , Oem rotors , 25.4mm Eurovan master cylinder, 3inch brake ducks mounted to splitter 
Wheel/tires : Ats cup , toyo R888 205/50/15 
Chassis: Kirk Racing rollbar, No rear seats ,light weight bucket seats 

:beer::beer:


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Europe, Nürburgring, Rudskogen, Mantorp
Seat Leon Cupra R mk1 AWD
1500kg with driver
500awhp? dyno this winter
Becoming a dedicated track car
E85
AGU ported bigport, bored & stroked 2008cc, catcams 3651, 2.0 AZG crank, Mahle racing pistons, SEM w/ 80mm TB, PPT mani with a PPT5935R .82ar
AP racing copy 330x28mm rotors on Badger5 bells, Brembo 4pot caliper with Ferodo DS2500 all around
H&R Clubsport coilovers, no front arb, R32 rear arb

:beer:


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## FilxNZ2 (Nov 9, 2009)

Location: Auckland, New Zealand. 
Local circuits: Hampton Downs Circuit, Pukekohe Park Raceway
Model/Gen: VW Vento Mk3
Weight with driver: Approx 1210kg with driver
HP/Torque: Car works best around 200-230kW atw
Used for: Street/track
Fuel: 98RON
Engine: AGU, GT3071R, IE rods, 630cc inj, wideband/DBW with Eurodyne 630cc map
Brakes: Various different brake combos have been tried - most recently Mk4 R32 with Hawk Blue 9012s
Suspension: Bilstein PSS, various poly bushes, adjustable rear ARB
Wheels/Tyres: 17x8 Speedline Corse ET35, 215/40/17 Dunlop Direzza Z1
Chassis: Stripped interior, OMP seats, basic 6 point roll cage, rear door delete


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

:beer::beer::thumbup::thumbup::wave::wave::heart::heart:

awesome guys. if all the regular track heads(TRACK...not STRIPP post up we should have the entire USA covered and great parts of the world, which is awesome to see comparisons not only it setup but hardware and so on.

this could very well be a fun thread with some great insight for our toys.


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## FilxNZ2 (Nov 9, 2009)

Vegeta Gti said:


> :beer::beer::thumbup::thumbup::wave::wave::heart::heart:
> 
> this could very well be a fun thread with some great insight for our toys.


Absolutely. Especially for people in small countries like where I'm from where you can probably count the number of regular VW track cars on the fingers of one hand.

Also thought adding wheel/tyre spec to that list might be useful.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

FilxNZ2 said:


> Absolutely. Especially for people in small countries like where I'm from where you can probably count the number of regular VW track cars on the fingers of one hand.
> 
> Also thought adding wheel/tyre spec to that list might be useful.


Good idea !! I also added DRIVETRAIN and CHASSIS.. 

Keep it up guys ..very useful stuff to be discussed


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Hell yes. Totally forgot about that. 

I need to look into track wheels and tires. .. though my star specs are decent.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Gulfstream said:


> AP racing copy 330x28mm rotors on Badger5 bells, Brembo 4pot caliper with Ferodo DS2500 all aaround


Gulf, how do you like DS2500? How's wear on the rotors?? 
I just got new calipers. Thinking about trying those.. Maybe i'll do one trackday with PB20 to compare 



Vegeta Gti said:


> Hell yes. Totally forgot about that.
> 
> I need to look into track wheels and tires. .. though my star specs are decent.


Whatcha running?


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

15x8 with Direzza 2 star specs.i loved the first ones. 

Probably go r888 in the future.


----------



## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Great thread :thumbup:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Vegeta Gti said:


> 15x8 with Direzza 2 star specs.i loved the first ones.
> 
> Probably go r888 in the future.


Do it!! I love the r888's the RA1's are the same with interchangable patterns..
I know 888's we can find as low as $160 . not sure about RA1


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

It's the pan. .I Gotta get moved and start school and get a job and a place to live first lol. Inside of the next month exactly lol


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Location: Hawaii/California
Tracks: Adams Motorsport PArk, Sonoma, Button Willow, Thunderhill, California Auto club, Williow Springs.
Make/Model: 1984 VW Jetaa GLi
Engine: 1.8t 20v, AEB head worked and built, cat 3651 cams, on AWP block. IE rods. Treadstone manifold, V1 PPT billet gt301r .63, SEM intake manifold w/80mmtb, 1000cc injectors, custom exhaust and AWIC setup. DBW. Custom gonzo flash. IE fuel rail. tial stuff.
Power: 450-475whp/400ft.lbs
Weight: no driver 1946lbs last i checked fully loaded w/spare(15"). maybe have gone down a touch....or up lol
street and track car.
Fuel: 91 pump with direct port meth(50/50), probably run 100 mix at the track for safety.
Transmission: 02J Tdi 5 speed. Peloquin LSD. FX400. cable setup
Suspension: H&R but awaiting my Standard R5TA custom setup, adjustable front tie bar, custom rear triangulated strut bar and 30mm solid rear sway, a mix of delrin,BFIstg2, and spherical bearings all around the car.
Brakes: 11" G60 in front and MKiv 9.4" in the rear with Hawk HPS pads. 23mm Audi MC(soon 24.5!) all braided lines. ATE Blue racing fluid.MK2 8v Gti(92) brake booster, B3 16v passat brake pedal rod, MK3 8v brake booster frame/mount trimmed to fit.
Wheel/Tire: 1552 snowflakes 15x8 with Dunlop Direzza2 star specs
Chassis: I will be making my own cage while at school, at minimum the rear sectionw ith a harness bar. then I will go with a better drivers seat and keep my recaro trophy front and pull my rears. I also plan on doing my own floors and adding in some structural support and safety.

still got soooo much to do even after all these years..always getting better, progressing, improving,etc,etc.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Vegeta Gti said:


> It's the pan. .I Gotta get moved and start school and get a job and a place to live first lol. Inside of the next month exactly lol


So, you're moving from the island to Cali? 
Glad you're be able to track that puppy
Have you ever tracked her or have experience on track?


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

She's seen the strip and a little road course in Nevada right before doing it here. 
I have track day, instruction, and competition experience. But nearly 8 years off. .. is not good for the skills. .. but I find ways.. to. ."practice"


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Vegeta Gti said:


> She's seen the strip and a little road course in Nevada right before doing it here.
> I have track day, instruction, and competition experience. But nearly 8 years off. .. is not good for the skills. .. but I find ways.. to. ."practice"


:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Nmcaruso (Jul 26, 2012)

Denver Colorado, High Plains Raceway, Pikes Peak International Raceway
2002 1.8T
2650 lbs without driver including full Hill climb spec 10pt cage
Track only 
Minimum engine mods (intercooler, chip, intake)
GLI/TT brakes HP+ pads
KW V2 with custom rate Hypercoil springs. Custom rear trailing arm bracing to prevent flex.
Peloquin


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

/\/\/\ Can HPS take the abuse? Find it hard believe unless you're not pushing very hard. What size rotors?


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

i'm going to find out.....the HP+ did well for track days...my car will shed weight soon..so i'm not usually hard on the brakes, as i try to brake as little as possible as i was taught. we will see..if i have to i will def switch pads.


oil.

i'm a motul guy. i currently run 8100xcess 15-40, though i will run 15w50 in the summer for sure. i also use a zddp additive and oem passat 1.8t filter. it can stand the test of 10k services and go more with 7500 filter changes. love it.


----------



## Nmcaruso (Jul 26, 2012)

The HP+ pads have been great, I've never had issues even during 90+ degree days. I push the breaking zones pretty hard, I believe the weight of the car is the big factor on why these work. If the car was heavier, I think they wouldn't be as great.

My next set of pads will most likely be Hawk Blues or similar as I would like a more aggressive pad.


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Vegeta Gti said:


> i'm going to find out.....the HP+ did well for track days...my car will shed weight soon..so i'm not usually hard on the brakes, as i try to brake as little as possible as i was taught. we will see..if i have to i will def switch pads.
> 
> 
> oil.
> ...


Well, actually you wanna be hard on the brakes at first ..then easy it off into turn 
Specially you with all the power you got. 
Of coarse you probably need to bring power down to 300-350whp .anything abouve that on fwd is useless power ..(specially mk1 lol) 
I'm sure you know 

I use same oil !!:thumbup::thumbup:



Nmcaruso said:


> The HP+ pads have been great, I've never had issues even during 90+ degree days. I push the breaking zones pretty hard, I believe the weight of the car is the big factor on why these work. If the car was heavier, I think they wouldn't be as great.
> 
> My next set of pads will most likely be Hawk Blues or similar as I would like a more aggressive pad.


You're right ! With car being so light and chipped 20v . You can get away with it . Not for long through as you improve your driving skills 
I run hawk blues. They do have good stopping power vs hps i use on street driving .
But like MENTIONED earlier hawk DTC has newer technology :thumbup:


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

i'm a late braking kinda guy, i typically don't push my straightaway speeds and prefer to maintain corner speedand of course accelerate out. good ol fwd.

surprisingly enough, even at my power level..it still accelerates regardless of wheel spin. enough to beat bikes lol.

but track days boost would come down, which won't be needed with boost by gear when it's done. my ITS rabbit made 360whp...was plenty fun, fast and sticky.


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Vegeta Gti said:


> i'm going to find out.....the HP+ did well for track days...my car will shed weight soon..so i'm not usually hard on the brakes, as i try to brake as little as possible as i was taught. we will see..if i have to i will def switch pads.
> 
> 
> oil.
> ...





Nmcaruso said:


> The HP+ pads have been great, I've never had issues even during 90+ degree days. I push the breaking zones pretty hard, I believe the weight of the car is the big factor on why these work. If the car was heavier, I think they wouldn't be as great.
> 
> My next set of pads will most likely be Hawk Blues or similar as I would like a more aggressive pad.





Vegeta Gti said:


> i'm a late braking kinda guy, i typically don't push my straightaway speeds and prefer to maintain corner speedand of course accelerate out. good ol fwd.
> 
> surprisingly enough, even at my power level..it still accelerates regardless of wheel spin. enough to beat bikes lol.
> 
> but track days boost would come down, which won't be needed with boost by gear when it's done. my ITS rabbit made 360whp...was plenty fun, fast and sticky.


Boost by gear would be awesome . i was even thinking about getting EBC for Road Atlanta. That back straight needs High boost fun 

360whp ..hmmmm fun!!!


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

I think the HPS can take the track days bring in sub 2000lb and 11 front and 9.4 rear. Especially with that 24.5mm mc coming.

Already planning my first day lol


----------



## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

This thread as got so much win and interesting info in it! Thanks for directing/pointing it out BR will get involved and at the very least follow it


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## stevem589 (Oct 18, 2010)

*nice thread*

I have wanted to do this for a while. Maybe one day in the spring get up to north alabama or Atlanta and meet up with you. 
I run the hawk pads . Dont know which ones with an outlaw brakes 4 piston caliper front and rear on a .810 wilwood rotor at 12.1" for both.
Car weighs 1610 . Old giac tune. With no muffler and a differential.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

stevem589 said:


> I have wanted to do this for a while. Maybe one day in the spring get up to north alabama or Atlanta and meet up with you.
> I run the hawk pads . Dont know which ones with an outlaw brakes 4 piston caliper front and rear on a .810 wilwood rotor at 12.1" for both.
> Car weighs 1610 . Old giac tune. With no muffler and a differential.


you sir, could gain from a modern tune, and some more bolt ons!!


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## stevem589 (Oct 18, 2010)

I know man. Lol. I have to get some new rims first. Next buy for sure. 
But really. I just want to see what the car would do around a track.
I havent been outrun by anything I've come across yet. 
So.. I buying one thing at a time. 
I dont know what bolt ons I could use ??


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

StaceyS3 said:


> This thread as got so much win and interesting info in it! Thanks for directing/pointing it out BR will get involved and at the very least follow it


It Will with you in it  
:beer::beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

stevem589 said:


> I have wanted to do this for a while. Maybe one day in the spring get up to north alabama or Atlanta and meet up with you.
> I run the hawk pads . Dont know which ones with an outlaw brakes 4 piston caliper front and rear on a .810 wilwood rotor at 12.1" for both.
> Car weighs 1610 . Old giac tune. With no muffler and a differential.


Hit me up when u plan on coming down here. . 
Agreed with VEGETA you could use a better tune . if you are in the Alt area, you can always contact my tuner. User name "elRey":thumbup:

Road Atlanta is a blast!!! 
What hawk pads you run? 
What chassis??


----------



## stevem589 (Oct 18, 2010)

Trying not to get off the subject. 
This is why I want to see what it does at the track


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

BR_337 said:


> Gulf, how do you like DS2500? How's wear on the rotors??
> I just got new calipers. Thinking about trying those.. Maybe i'll do one trackday with PB20 to compare
> 
> 
> ...


Honestly couldn't tell you as I've changed rotors and pads before every season. I do like the DS2500 though bot on track and road. Need a proper bed-in and you're good to go. 

Could add to my setup I run on R888 which I strongly recommend on the track. 

Peloquin LSD front and rear.


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

Location: UK

Tracks: Currently only driven the S3 on Bedford Autodrome but have been on others and got others within a couple of hours such as brands hatch, silverstone, donnington, rockingham, snetterton and santa pod

Make: 2002 Audi S3 8L 225

Weight: Hoping to get it to 1300kg

HP: Was 445hp but with new changes am aiming >700

Use : Used to be my daily but will now be for weekends and hopefully a lot more tracking

Fuel : Shell V-power 99ron

Engine: Stroked AGU block 2008cc, IE Je race Pistons, A.L.Developments ported and polished AEB head, Ferrea valvetrain, IECVA1 cams, IE inlet mani, Direct port methanol injection, 80mm hemi TB, 1000cc gen II injectors, TSR tubular mani, HTA3586 with tial .82 AR hotside, Tial mvr 44mm wastegate, 4'-3' DP with 3' system

Transmission: 02M AWD 6 speed, CM FX850, HPA New Haldex controller if they ever ship them, vibratechnic engine mounts,Upgraded shifter forks and modified shifter arms to shorten throw both ways

Brakes: 996TT front calipers with DS3000's on OEM R32 334mm discs, rear Audi S4 308mm discs with DS2500 pads

Suspension: H&R coilovers, H&R ARB's, ground control front top mounts, USRT tubular front control arms, forge rear adjustable tie bars and powerflex bushed all round

Wheel/tires : Asuka 18' alloys till source some nice lightweight ones, Yoko AD08 225/40/18 tyres

Chassis: stripped out with custom cages multipoint cage going in, cobra Suzuka bucket seats and 6 point harness's

Can't wait to eventually get it up and running again but seems like a never ending project


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

The caliber of the cars in this thread is incredible. I honestly had no idea this forum had so many actual race car owners lurking in the shadows!


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Gulfstream said:


> Honestly couldn't tell you as I've changed rotors and pads before every season. I do like the DS2500 though bot on track and road. Need a proper bed-in and you're good to go.
> 
> Could add to my setup I run on R888 which I strongly recommend on the track.
> 
> Peloquin LSD front and rear.


Thanks ok
Yeah I'm r888 Wavetrac lsd:thumbup:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

stevem589 said:


> Trying not to get off the subject.
> This is why I want to see what it does at the track


Makes a lot of sense now...lol 
So that's a 20v ?? I've only seen SR20s abd and K/B series 

BADASS !!! 

Well, if it is.... It belongs in here


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

4ceFed4 said:


> The caliber of the cars in this thread is incredible. I honestly had no idea this forum had so many actual race car owners lurking in the shadows!


Jeff, me either bro lol

We wanna see yours though

:beer:


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## clarkma5 (Mar 2, 2002)

BR_337 said:


> /\/\/\ Can HPS take the abuse? Find it hard believe unless you're not pushing very hard. What size rotors?


My two cents on the HPS, though I'm still in a mostly stock, mostly road-focused car. But with ~2900ish lbs. incl. driver and stock AWP power, my experience is thus:

Stock brakes (11.3" front/9.1" rear) = pedal to the floor in a few 9/10ths hot laps, back to the pits for cooling down. On a 90ish degree day I pushed my sessions a little longer and I cooked the resin out of the stock pads and corduroy'd the rotors.
Stock rotors w/ HPS all around, SS lines, and RBF600 = pedal goes long over 5-6 9/10ths hot laps, but braking power seems to hold steady enough that you can stay out. A cooldown lap or two is advisable to bring them back after 5 or so hot laps.
12.3" front rotors w/ HPS all around, SS lines, and RBF600 = pedal stays manageable and braking performance is steady for 9/10ths lapping.

I've been running the same HPS in the front for 70k miles and 6 trackdays and they're still about half there. The rears don't last as long, as is typical for VWs. But overall the HPS is a great street pad that can handle track work when paired with good fluid, they make no noise and dust less than OEM and stop OK when dead cold. I'm not sure I'd run it on a dedicated track machine because do you really need the dust, noise, and cold running benefits? But for anyone who wants one pad for both worlds, I couldn't imagine something better!


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

clarkma5 said:


> My two cents on the HPS, though I'm still in a mostly stock, mostly road-focused car. But with ~2900ish lbs. incl. driver and stock AWP power, my experience is thus:
> 
> Stock brakes (11.3" front/9.1" rear) = pedal to the floor in a few 9/10ths hot laps, back to the pits for cooling down. On a 90ish degree day I pushed my sessions a little longer and I cooked the resin out of the stock pads and corduroy'd the rotors.
> Stock rotors w/ HPS all around, SS lines, and RBF600 = pedal goes long over 5-6 9/10ths hot laps, but braking power seems to hold steady enough that you can stay out. A cooldown lap or two is advisable to bring them back after 5 or so hot laps.
> ...



the HP+ is superior..it's just hardly available these days and I am in a time crunch so i went with HPS. the thing you're forgetting is i am 1000lbs lighter than you and i have a very robust braking setup. I never smoked my HP+, and that was with smaller brakes and rear drums on several cars, I think it will be fine on such a light car, and if it isn't, oh well, I'll get better pads lol. If you went HP+ you'd love it. i still have meat left on mine..not much actually, but i don't want to put myself in a position to have my car down while at school in SoCAL and not knowing if i'll have a place to work on it,etc.

go HP+.:beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

clarkma5 said:


> My two cents on the HPS, though I'm still in a mostly stock, mostly road-focused car. But with ~2900ish lbs. incl. driver and stock AWP power, my experience is thus:
> 
> Stock brakes (11.3" front/9.1" rear) = pedal to the floor in a few 9/10ths hot laps, back to the pits for cooling down. On a 90ish degree day I pushed my sessions a little longer and I cooked the resin out of the stock pads and corduroy'd the rotors.
> Stock rotors w/ HPS all around, SS lines, and RBF600 = pedal goes long over 5-6 9/10ths hot laps, but braking power seems to hold steady enough that you can stay out. A cooldown lap or two is advisable to bring them back after 5 or so hot laps.
> ...


I agree with you . HPS are great pads . i use them on street driving and some mountain runs. .
Though, you're prob not pushing your car hard at all. . The fact that, you street drove for 70k and did 6 trackdays on the same pads and there's half of meat left??:facepalm:..tells me a lot . 
You can ask ask any hardcore racer or advanced driver like my self. And they will recomend a pair of dedicated race pads .
I know power to weight comes in play. But not on your case at least. 

Not saying they aren't good pads . they really are ! 
It's just not an ideal track brake pads


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

BR_337 said:


> I agree with you . HPS are great pads . i use them on street driving and some mountain runs. .
> Though, you're prob not pushing your car hard at all. . The fact that, you street drove for 70k and did 6 trackdays on the same pads and there's half of meat left??:facepalm:..tells me a lot .
> You can ask ask any hardcore racer or advanced driver like my self. And they will recomend a pair of dedicated race pads .
> I know power to weight comes in play. But not on your case at least.
> ...


+1... I didn't comment about the HPS and HP+ because I didn't want to bring any sort of elitism in a very good thread. From my personal experience, both HPS or HP+ are not pads that should have a place in any real track-oriented discussion. Any aggressive or advanced driving (8/10th to 10/10th) and they will be grossly inadequate, and that's independent of car weight and setup. Real dedicated track pads would be a night and day difference in braking performance over these street-performance pads (I personally hate hawk HP line for the amount of noise and corrosive dust deposit for such low coefficient of friction material). 

Haven't been mentioned, but my pad of choice for tracking is Carbotech's XP line. For my 26xx lbs TT I have settled with XP12 (250*F-1850*F) square for autocross and square XP20 (275*F-2000*F) for circuit racing. Both offer incredible cold initial bite for their respective friction coefficients. 

The XP12 could easily be daily driven if one can get past the occasional low speed cold braking squeal. The XP20 will not go away in 30-50 min races even in a powerful 3,000 lbs car, have great modulation, low pad kickback characteristics for a true race pad, and will literally put you through the windshield from a cold stop if you're not strapped in. Carbotech's XP line is also legendary in that segment for how well they play with rotors wear (it should be known that rotors should be the consumable on a track car instead of the pads since it's a lot less costly to go through rotors than through pads).

*
The Bobcat 1521 would be comparable to the HPS and the AX6 an HP+ equivalent*


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> +1... I didn't comment about the HPS and HP+ because I didn't want to bring any sort of elitism in a very good thread. From my personal experience, both HPS or HP+ are not pads that should have a place in any real track-oriented discussion. Any aggressive or advanced driving (8/10th to 10/10th) and they will be grossly inadequate, and that's independent of car weight and setup. Real dedicated track pads would be a night and day difference in braking performance over these street-performance pads (I personally hate hawk HP line for the amount of noise and corrosive dust deposit for such low coefficient of friction material).
> 
> Haven't been mentioned, but my pad of choice for tracking is Carbotech's XP line. For my 26xx lbs TT I have settled with XP12 (250*F-1850*F) square for autocross and square XP20 (275*F-2000*F) for circuit racing. Both offer incredible cold initial bite for their respective friction coefficients.
> 
> ...



i've personally never had an issue over the years(15 or so)with the HP+ setup at HPDE's and at PDX's, but i would never RACE in them or do time attack/hot lap events. they are superior to OEM for peopel jsut doing track days and not in the black level or higher level groups.


now, these pads you just posted up..that is impressive...that temp range is incredible and i can def agree with the corrosive dust of the hawks. it's fukn annoying. 

**** i may order a set of those XP12's for the front of my car. that is awesome, very interested and as always great input man!!:beer::beer::beer: now post your setup fool


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## clarkma5 (Mar 2, 2002)

BR_337 said:


> I agree with you . HPS are great pads . i use them on street driving and some mountain runs. .
> Though, you're prob not pushing your car hard at all. . The fact that, you street drove for 70k and did 6 trackdays on the same pads and there's half of meat left??:facepalm:..tells me a lot .
> You can ask ask any hardcore racer or advanced driver like my self. And they will recomend a pair of dedicated race pads .
> I know power to weight comes in play. But not on your case at least.
> ...


I disagree about not pushing, I feel I hold back enough to avoid heat soak and complete brake fade and to get the car home at the end of the day and that's the extent of it. Everything up to that point is pushing, and it's pushing enough to be quicker than most guys who show up in their 350/370Zs and E46 M3s and 996 Carreras...not because the car's faster, just because I'm getting as much out of it as I can. I also have some economy to my driving style that helps my pad life on and off track, and maybe 50% there is a bit optimistic...a fat third? But yeah it's overall a different level of pushing in my road car that has to get me home vs. a dedicated track machine. That was kinda the point of my post. The HPS is the pad for the guy who runs a couple trackdays per year and doesn't want to swap pads for it, and it's great for that audience. I am that audience for the time being, though I'd love to get past that (see my GTI HPDE/TT development thread for more on that).

I guess it's fair to say that the HPS is enough pad to enable me to get into HPDE and progress into intermediate run groups, but it's honestly one of the factors holding me back from getting into that final HPDE run group (and beyond). If I were continuing to pursue this "road car that does trackdays" thing, I'd go to Ferodo DS2500s in the front as my next step up. But I think I'd rather just strip it out, put it on a trailer, and run Porterfields or something


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

+2 to what Marcus and BR_377 said. Hawk HPS and HP+ are simply not adequate for an advanced Track Day driver or experienced Road Racer, IMHO. 

You may get away with using HP+ pads on a light car on a high speed flowing Track. But, as an Instructor for Track Days and Time Attack/Sprint events , I find that one of the most common mistakes of newer drivers is that they do not utilize their brakes to full capacity. They are often on the brakes for too long with insufficient pedal pressure. That costs lap time, but is easy on brakes.... and is perfectly acceptable for having a " Fun " lapping day. Going for Quali style FAST LAPS is a whole different story...

For drivers that want to move up into full time racing, I teach advanced methods how to maximize braking to 100%. Once you get to that level consistently, the necessity to utilize dedicated Racing brake pads becomes quickly apparent.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

i agree. the way i learned and have taken my stle to be..i don't brake as much as most people. when is tarted rscing karts as a kdi and into midgets, my grandfather would block the pedal in practice so i could get into the groove and using throttle, intuitive prediction and instinct/reflexes to DRIVE the car instead of relying solely on braking and reaccelerating. 

there are good pads out there, and we all have our preferences and styles and setups. so let's get off the pad thing and keep the thread awesome and progressing and sharing. we each have our own way and style and story so talking about pad choice is kinda fickle as it will vary a lot.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Vegeta Gti said:


> i agree. the way i learned and have taken my stle to be..i don't brake as much as most people. when is tarted rscing karts as a kdi and into midgets, my grandfather would block the pedal in practice so i could get into the groove and using throttle, intuitive prediction and instinct/reflexes to DRIVE the car instead of relying solely on braking and reaccelerating.
> 
> there are good pads out there, and we all have our preferences and styles and setups. so let's get off the pad thing and keep the thread awesome and progressing and sharing. we each have our own way and style and story so talking about pad choice is kinda fickle as it will vary a lot.


I think the thread is awesome as it stands. I don't think there is a problem with discussing pad selection at all. All discussions so far have been informative, respectful and have clear in that there are different levels of driver experience, track layout and car preparation. What may be adequate for one level, may not be adequate for a higher level. No problem in that and and knowledge is always power. Carry on... :beer:

Edit: But I agree that there is probably enough discussion on Pad selection for now, and it's time to move onto other things.More than enough info in this thread to make an informed decision. :thumbup:


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## clarkma5 (Mar 2, 2002)

I find it very interesting to look at any facet of this track car thing in terms of expectations, vehicle weight, vehicle power, and driver skill and see what works in one scenario and doesn't work in another. It's great to get different data points and say "ok, a light weight and low power user with this set of expectations will function with X, but a heavier and higher powered user with THIS set of expectations will demand Y". I'm happy offering my thoughts and hearing what others say for pads, for rotors, for suspension, for power mods, for drivetrain components...you name it!

For a shift in discussion, let's talk tires and tire temperatures. My last couple trackdays on my Michelin Pilot Super Sports, I got a Longacre Racing Products probe pyrometer to evaluate my tire temperatures...inside, middle, and outside, at all four corners. My initial goal was to use it to set my tire pressures to keep my compounds in a happy working range and I was fortunate enough to have a lot of discussion with my HPDE instructor on suspension setup, tire temps, and driving style. He rather turned my view of tire temperatures on its head, because I was using higher pressures to keep the temperatures down, until he pointed out to me that all I was doing was sacrificing ultimate grip in order to reduce the total energy input into my tires, and instead he told me: set your tire pressures to maximize grip and then if you're overheating your compounds, CHANGE YOUR DRIVING STYLE. In hindsight it's glaringly obvious but at the time it was an epiphany.

What do you guys do to record/evaluate your tire temperatures, if anything, and how do you use those temperatures to inform your tuning direction, driving styles, and tire choices?


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> +1... I didn't comment about the HPS and HP+ because I didn't want to bring any sort of elitism in a very good thread. From my personal experience, both HPS or HP+ are not pads that should have a place in any real track-oriented discussion. Any aggressive or advanced driving (8/10th to 10/10th) and they will be grossly inadequate, and that's independent of car weight and setup. Real dedicated track pads would be a night and day difference in braking performance over these street-performance pads (I personally hate hawk HP line for the amount of noise and corrosive dust deposit for such low coefficient of friction material).
> 
> Haven't been mentioned, but my pad of choice for tracking is Carbotech's XP line. For my 26xx lbs TT I have settled with XP12 (250*F-1850*F) square for autocross and square XP20 (275*F-2000*F) for circuit racing. Both offer incredible cold initial bite for their respective friction coefficients.
> 
> ...


About time you showed up with your knowledge Max 

Very interesting... I wonder if they make these for Powerlites 



Chickenman35 said:


> +2 to what Marcus and BR_377 said. Hawk HPS and HP+ are simply not adequate for an advanced Track Day driver or experienced Road Racer, IMHO.
> 
> You may get away with using HP+ pads on a light car on a high speed flowing Track. But, as an Instructor for Track Days and Time Attack/Sprint events , I find that one of the most common mistakes of newer drivers is that they do not utilize their brakes to full capacity. They are often on the brakes for too long with insufficient pedal pressure. That costs lap time, but is easy on brakes.... and is perfectly acceptable for having a " Fun " lapping day. Going for Quali style FAST LAPS is a whole different story...
> 
> For drivers that want to move up into full time racing, I teach advanced methods how to maximize braking to 100%. Once you get to that level consistently, the necessity to utilize dedicated Racing brake pads becomes quickly apparent.


Agreed times 100:beer::beer:
Thanks for earlier info bro.:thumbup:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Chickenman35 said:


> I think the thread is awesome as it stands. I don't think there is a problem with discussing pad selection at all. All discussions so far have been informative, respectful and have clear in that there are different levels of driver experience, track layout and car preparation. What may be adequate for one level, may not be adequate for a higher level. No problem in that and and knowledge is always power. Carry on... :beer:
> 
> Edit: But I agree that there is probably enough discussion on Pad selection for now, and it's time to move onto other things.More than enough info in this thread to make an informed decision. :thumbup:


you the man!! :thumbup::thumbup::beer::beer:


Started installing new brakes :thumbup::thumbup:

got drivers side done


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Beautiful


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Vegeta Gti said:


> Beautiful


:beer::beer:

Hopefully,it'll perform as good as it looks :laugh:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Lets Talk Aerodynamics :thumbup::thumbup:

Made some side Diffuses.. 
the mk2 is like a shoebox running tru air, it needs all the help i can get :laugh::facepalm:
Material is 1/2 '' honeycomb plastic street sign 



























Notice the front end part of it tucks in behind the front wheel. This will help with turbulent air escaping :thumbup: 










































let me know what ya thing :beer::beer:

*Brakes are bed in and feels strong:thumbup: though , i ve yet to test them on real racetrack environment .
DS2500 might be on the way soon . Road Atlanta is in 2 weeks *


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

The hps feel like the hp+on the smaller setup with less initial bite. Once i get to cali I'm changing pads immediately lol.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Vegeta Gti said:


> The hps feel like the hp+on the smaller setup with less initial bite. Once i get to cali I'm changing pads immediately lol.


I wanna see a video of that beast soon!!


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

I took one today. .. see if it's worth editing lol.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Vegeta Gti said:


> I took one today. .. see if it's worth editing lol.


Editing? Nah just post it lol


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

BR_337 said:


> Editing? Nah just post it lol


x2. I hate how ppl think photo/video has to be edited. Just post it! RACEKOR

Also, I lkike the body diffusers! great thinking. reminds me of the carbon shields on the bottom of a f1 car

Now to get a hatch wing and rear lower diffuser to further manage the air.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

RodgertheRabit II said:


> x2. I hate how ppl think photo/video has to be edited. Just post it! RACEKOR
> 
> Also, I lkike the body diffusers! great thinking. reminds me of the carbon shields on the bottom of a f1 car
> 
> Now to get a hatch wing and rear lower diffuser to further manage the air.


Thanks man:beer:

I already have a rear diffuser installed:thumbup: all i need to do now is .. To block off few gaps underneath/around fuel tank to again, help with air flow and avoid turbulation... And also in the front end. Force all air tru radiator


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

Bending in those side diffusers is going to create turbulence. As air rushes through the front, its going to push air off to the side and out and then cause air to stall in the tucked area under the car that doesn't have airflow. You either want air to flow under the car as quickly as possible, or you want to stop it from coming in all together, by using a front air dam. Creating areas for it to stall is going to lead to lift. 

If you're serious about aero, creating an air dam or an air dam/splitter combination would be more beneficial. With a properly built air dam/splitter you're also going to need to create some sort of wing or spoiler to control the back end. The car won't need much but even an inch of rear spoiler will really add quite a bit of downforce. 

Squatting the rear of the car will also let air flow over the car quicker thus reducing drag.


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

Cracking work! :beer:

Looking forward to the results


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

rex_racer said:


> Bending in those side diffusers is going to create turbulence. As air rushes through the front, its going to push air off to the side and out and then cause air to stall in the tucked area under the car that doesn't have airflow. You either want air to flow under the car as quickly as possible, or you want to stop it from coming in all together, by using a front air dam. Creating areas for it to stall is going to lead to lift.
> 
> If you're serious about aero, creating an air dam or an air dam/splitter combination would be more beneficial. With a properly built air dam/splitter you're also going to need to create some sort of wing or spoiler to control the back end. The car won't need much but even an inch of rear spoiler will really add quite a bit of downforce.
> 
> Squatting the rear of the car will also let air flow over the car quicker thus reducing drag.


I Already have a front splitter and rear diffuser buddy.
You're correct about bending the diffuser in can create a lot of drag. Though, if you notice. The bends are not very far in . It actually goes almost parallel to the inside of the tire. That way ,its only catching most of the turbulent air from the wheel and pushing it out :thumbup:
So, it wont effect the high velocity air running the middle. 

Good point on the rear though 
Thanks 


StaceyS3 said:


> Cracking work! :beer:
> 
> Looking forward to the results


:beer::beer:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Aero is such a hugely misunderstood aspect of a trsck vehicle. Good to see your simple additions. I've been putting abd planning for ever and it's always changing. If the car becomes dedicated I'll go a different route than street/track machine. 

Great topic addition that can really really help others and well break a lot of false info as well about vehicle dynamics and of course aero.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Vegeta Gti said:


> Aero is such a hugely misunderstood aspect of a trsck vehicle. Good to see your simple additions. I've been putting abd planning for ever and it's always changing. If the car becomes dedicated I'll go a different route than street/track machine.
> 
> Great topic addition that can really really help others and well break a lot of false info as well about vehicle dynamics and of course aero.


opcorn: curious to see what direction you take the mk1. Hopefully full track car :laugh:

Agreed! 
I've been researching/reading a lot on clubGTI. Those guys have been racing dubs for a long ,long time :thumbup:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Fuk yeah


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## superkarl (Dec 18, 2012)

Problem with aero on an amateur level is its all guess work, and mimicking race cars. 
without proper testing and data no one really knows. 
Fluid dynamics is not a simple subject at all, and what may seem logical in diy aero, might not be so. 

its always cringe worthy to read on so many forums of people that think they know the ins and outs. 
Best you can do though is experiment and rely on the feel of the car and/or times. Always good to see experimentation and fun ideas.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

superkarl said:


> Problem with aero on an amateur level is its all guess work, and mimicking race cars.
> without proper testing and data no one really knows.
> Fluid dynamics is not a simple subject at all, and what may seem logical in diy aero, might not be so.
> 
> ...


Although I agree that there is a lot of guesswork involved, I wouldn't say it's about mimicking race cars. 99% of race teams don't have the budget for windtunnel time, let alone fine tuning various components and needed development as things moves along. There are, as you pointed, many ways to test for things at a grassroot/amateur levels. I am an Evo/DSM guy and aero testing done in these platforms at an amateur level is nothing short of spectacular. Let's just say that some communities like ours are leap years behind. 

When a community have an active Motorsports forums (not like the cricket place we do), and collective aero threads that are 30 pages deep of real info with none of the useless posts that are the norm here, there is no doubt that some brands and platforms are more evolved than others (especially with technical contents and development). These links below show what can be done at an amateur level, we're just (like some other platforms) scratching the surface and having that outlook just stops progression. 

http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/motor-sports/282468-evo-aerodynamics-review-30.html

Wool tuft testing Mitsubishi Evo VII - YouTube


In my car for example, between other things, I've been setting up for aero upgrades. I have set marker points in my suspensions as a baseline, this way when aero bits comes in they can be measured over stock and at various angles. Here is a clip of my rear wheel in motion at 65 mph, the red marking shows ride height without rear aero. If a rear wing is tested and is effective it will change that baseline ride level set point -- and if the AoA is changed, it will also be measurable (although finding that happy medium between downforce and drag is key). I have also been looking at the Audi factory headlight sensors, logging them is proving to be an effective way of measuring the aero changes on the chassis (obviously, having solid baseline data is key). 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=aPqXC4NmNNs

I say let's embrace the discussion because I was around when it all started with the DSM/evos and there were people saying it's pointless because of the limitations of doing it at an amateur level. Look at how evolved it is now with that platform...


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

@Superkarl,
yes man!.. that's the plan really .its a budget trackcar and i plan on keep testing and tuning 


@Max , :beer::beer:
The wool tuft test is very useful :thumbup: i have been using information from clubgti's Nige mk2 trackcar wool test on track. So, i use these as well.:thumbup:. 

Other than max, :laugh: i get great info from my buddy Bryson @ Wagenwerks Atl. he's a scca ,nasa racer, pca instructor and trackcar builder . With just the these basic stuff im doing ,he told me he picked up 3mph on the straight at Roebling Road :thumbup:

here is his trackcar 
im gonna go see him on Monday for some tips on finishing rear diffuser 


















And some of the cars he builds


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## clarkma5 (Mar 2, 2002)

The more complex your aero concepts get and the more you chase fine gains, the more you need rigorous testing, modeling, and advanced aerodynamic knowledge. But when it comes to the basic stuff like "here is a front splitter to move the stagnation point farther down", "here is a wing that has an angle to put downforce over the rear axle", it doesn't have to be out of the realm of understanding of the amateur.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Well said


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

This guy has been testing aero on his mk2 for years .. very useful information on build:thumbup::thumbup:

The fender flaring out is also a very useful way of improving airflow from wheels. I might go this route instead , depending on what my Honda buddy tells me. 





























AND wool test on basic wing vents 












*and also this ibiza sprintcar 's aero mods is what i am trying to achieve *:thumbup:



Notice where the side diffuser starts leaving room for the turbulent air to exit from front wheel 





































Side skirt detail :thumbup:


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

BR_337 said:


> This guy has been testing aero on his mk2 for years .. very useful information on build:thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> The fender flaring out is also a very useful way of improving airflow from wheels. I might go this route instead , depending on what my Honda buddy tells me.
> 
> ...


haha small world.
that ibiza is my friends car. Rob.
sold now tho, he's gone and got himself an SR8 now!


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

badger5 said:


> haha small world.
> that ibiza is my friends car. Rob.
> sold now tho, he's gone and got himself an SR8 now!


Yeah i know  ..his sr8 is a dream racecar though :thumbup:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

ordered p12 pads for the front.

but first track session tonight. open time attack.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Vegeta Gti said:


> ordered p12 pads for the front.
> 
> but first track session tonight. open time attack.


:thumbup::thumbup: Hope you brought the go-pro out.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

We don't believe it unless we see some footage


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

2 gopros. I just need a tv to edit on... desktop is hdmi only and well... I'm not made och money to buy a tv while at school lol


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

GOT some 10mm Alumalite to build new splitter 
super light lite and crazy strong :thumbup::thumbup:

No more heavy ass wood 










Sorry . I'll post better pictures tomorrow 

Also ,working on blocking off unwanted air drag


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Looks awesome man. Keep up the good work.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Vegeta Gti said:


> Looks awesome man. Keep up the good work.


:beer::beer::beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

MAN ,this got me fired up :laugh::thumbup: caint wait to get back on a racetrack :thumbup: BARBER MOTORSPORTS PARK in 4 weeks


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## FilxNZ2 (Nov 9, 2009)

I realise this is primarily an engine forum so hope this is OK - I'm looking for some pictures and descriptions of brake ducting setups, ideally for Mk3 Golf/Jetta platform, but anything would be useful. I have been advised to direct air to the hub to force air out through the vanes of the rotor so interested to see how people are mounting the tubing, tubing size, tubing material, notable results pre and post ducting install etc? Thanks in advance!


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

FilxNZ2 said:


> I realise this is primarily an engine forum so hope this is OK - I'm looking for some pictures and descriptions of brake ducting setups, ideally for Mk3 Golf/Jetta platform, but anything would be useful. I have been advised to direct air to the hub to force air out through the vanes of the rotor so interested to see how people are mounting the tubing, tubing size, tubing material, notable results pre and post ducting install etc? Thanks in advance!


Here's how i have mine . 
its a 3inch outter dia. intake tube . Its mounted now to the front lip ,resting on the splitter .
i have not yet test it on new brakes set up .But, old ones helped a ton with brake fade :thumbup:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

*New splitter on *










extra piece :thumbup:



























After Paint and install . made it wider


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Looking good brother! :thumbup::thumbup:

A few things I retained from running these in my Evo, epoxy seal the front leading edge to prevent debris and water to get into the honeycomb. This will prevent it from deteriorating and seperating with age. Glue two flat "bumpers" under the splitter on each leading sides. This provides protection to the alumalite when you rub and saves it against evil driveways etc. (the aluminum sheets are very thin and do too well with repeated rubbing rashes). :beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Looking good brother! :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> A few things I retained from running these in my Evo, epoxy seal the front leading edge to prevent debris and water to get into the honeycomb. This will prevent it from deteriorating and seperating with age. Glue two flat "bumpers" under the splitter on each leading sides. This provides protection to the alumalite when you rub and saves it against evil driveways etc. (the aluminum sheets are very thin and do too well with repeated rubbing rashes). :beer:


 max :thumbup::beer:
so, what kind of epoxy seal should i get? i was actually thinking about using something like ''great stuff'' ( poly urethane foam) to fill those gaps ?? what do you think

when i had the wood one i did srewed two small sheets of galv. should i use the same or thicker alu or plastic?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

3M Fiberglas resin works great (any fiberglass resin would do). The reason I picked resin over silicone sealing is because the resin adds strength besides just weatherproofing the exposed core. Another thing to do when you get a chance is get some vacuum hose and make a cut along the length of it -- that works great (with some glue to secure it) to slip over the entire leading edge of the splitter. With the vacuum hose it will look finished and professional.

As for the bumpers/protectors I used high density rubber and glued it. The rubber provide protection but also squishes/deflects some before transferring forces to the splitter (I guess polyurethane would work too and easy to find at your local speed shop).

PS: I might have some of the rubber bumpers I used to run in my evo splitters in the garage. I'll text you and let you know if I find them and drop them in the mail for you :beer:


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I've used different compounds attaching panels on cars and last year I tried TigerSeal recommended by Bill and it's clearly the best. Much better than any epoxy to hold par example a grill mesh or rear spoiler in place. Just sand down the surface so it can grip and place weights on it for 12hrs and I suspect it will never come off. :thumbup:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> 3M Fiberglas resin works great (any fiberglass resin would do). The reason I picked resin over silicone sealing is because the resin adds strength besides just weatherproofing the exposed core. Another thing to do when you get a chance is get some vacuum hose and make a cut along the length of it -- that works great (with some glue to secure it) to slip over the entire leading edge of the splitter. With the vacuum hose it will look finished and professional.
> 
> As for the bumpers/protectors I used high density rubber and glued it. The rubber provide protection but also squishes/deflects some before transferring forces to the splitter (I guess polyurethane would work too and easy to find at your local speed shop).
> 
> PS: I might have some of the rubber bumpers I used to run in my evo splitters in the garage. I'll text you and let you know if I find them and drop them in the mail for you :beer:



Thanks buddy. . I'm gonna try the resin / bumper and report back. Sounds like it would be ideal.
I don't think i will need much. The way i have it mounted is really stable. Just need to minimize damage with these two things u pointed out :beer:



Gulfstream said:


> I've used different compounds attaching panels on cars and last year I tried TigerSeal recommended by Bill and it's clearly the best. Much better than any epoxy to hold par example a grill mesh or rear spoiler in place. Just sand down the surface so it can grip and place weights on it for 12hrs and I suspect it will never come off. :thumbup:


Interesting, 
Is this something you can find anywhere? 
Thanks


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tiger-Seal-UPol-310ml-Polyurethane/dp/B002SQY852

Not sure if it's on sale anywhere in US.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Gulfstream said:


> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tiger-Seal-UPol-310ml-Polyurethane/dp/B002SQY852
> 
> Not sure if it's on sale anywhere in US.


Found it ! Its pretty cheap. 
Now, are you recommending using this on the splitter or general use ? 

Max's idea of using resin makes sense . are you suggesting using it the same way


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

All I can speak of is my experience with the stuff. I used it to attach a rear spoiler on my Cupra R because it was just way too much hassle to run bolts through the oem spoiler and I've been surprised how well it's stuck. It's not going anywhere! 5 trackdays and half a winter later it's locked in place and I suspect it will never come off. I also have a custom mesh in front of my IC that managed to vibrate itself loose when I used plastic gun, epoxy and other glues until I used tigerseal. Also been stuck like **** on a blanket for 8 months. Yeah, I'm impressed with the stuff. If you sand down the surfaces and let it harden under pressure I think you will be happy. Of course if you can use bolts as well then clearly do it.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Gulfstream said:


> All I can speak of is my experience with the stuff. I used it to attach a rear spoiler on my Cupra R because it was just way too much hassle to run bolts through the oem spoiler and I've been surprised how well it's stuck. It's not going anywhere! 5 trackdays and half a winter later it's locked in place and I suspect it will never come off. I also have a custom mesh in front of my IC that managed to vibrate itself loose when I used plastic gun, epoxy and other glues until I used tigerseal. Also been stuck like **** on a blanket for 8 months. Yeah, I'm impressed with the stuff. If you sand down the surfaces and let it harden under pressure I think you will be happy. Of course if you can use bolts as well then clearly do it.


Gotcha! Thanks for the explanation 
I'm gonna buy it and use it on the bumpers under splitter. :thumbup:

:beer::beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Late to the party... the tiger seal is awesome stuff apparently, I remember Badger5 recommending it. I'd used that to glue the bumpers as you said, but for sealing/filing the alumalite core, I would stick to resin.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

check it out .

New splitter almost done!:thumbup: just waiting for Resin (thanks Max ) to dry so i can lay some paint. 

So, what i ended up doing was cutting a strip of the same thin sheet of aluminum that comes glue to the alumalite boad . glued it and laid 2 layers of resin . Plus 2 coats of paint 
















*VS *




































You can see the layer of Resin . next is paint:thumbup:





























:beer::beer:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Beautiful. I need to make one I can remove and install as I need


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Vegeta Gti said:


> Beautiful. I need to make one I can remove and install as I need


Do it bro!!:thumbup:

Though I'm not sure how you can make one you can remove easy. 
I know pro tace cars are mounted to the bumper. So they can replace the entire front end in one peace. 

mmm.. maybe you can mount it to that new front lip you got and find a way you can remove it.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Looking real good! :thumbup::thumbup:

It's sad I can't do any real work on mine right now and contribute to this thread because of the Northeast weather. 

PS: I'm going to text you something I see for your next evolution of the splitter.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

since i stay in second gear most of the time, i can top on the straights at 72mph. but a fun tight technical track


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Car sounds crazy man ! Badass !! haha :thumbup::thumbup:

Though thats a small little track. The goal in racing is ..you either on the gas or on the brakes . *there's no cruising* .... 
Thats the problem with having too much power (useless ). 

i believe 300whp sub 2000lbs car , 350whp sup 3500lbs car should be the limit on a fwd , And 400-450whp should be the limit on a awd car if you are not a professional.

That's my opinion .

Glad you're having fun though:beer::beer:


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

It pulls hard Cris. Better get some slicks on that thing. :laugh:


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

BR_337 said:


> Car sounds crazy man ! Badass !! haha :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> i believe 300whp sub 2000lbs car , 350whp sup 3500lbs car should be the limit on a fwd , And 400-450whp should be the limit on a awd car if you are not a professional.
> 
> ...


Glad I'm not the only one that feels that way. I've thought plenty hard about wanting vs needing more power. 

Balance is the name of the game IMO.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

spartiati said:


> Glad I'm not the only one that feels that way. I've thought plenty hard about wanting vs needing more power.
> 
> Balance is the name of the game IMO.


yes, that's true. :thumbup:


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

spartiati said:


> Glad I'm not the only one that feels that way. I've thought plenty hard about wanting vs needing more power.
> 
> Balance is the name of the game IMO.


agreed. 325-350whp in my 20th was too much. Wheelspin in 3rd, super squirrelly. Dramatic and fun, but just making noise at that point and too much focus on throttle tokkepp traction. Hence why I moved onto quattro.:laugh:opcorn:opcorn:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

i only brake for the turn out of the pits and the chicane on the back stretch..other than that i'm pedalling or off throttle and engine braking.

my wg is stuck shut and i don't have the resources or tools here at school to diagnosis and fix it. if i could turn it down i would, but i can still out accelerate people while spinning in 2nd or 3rd. the "track prepped" time attack LS3 S14 there runs 52's...for me on that track it's been tire pressure that has been the key. i can't enough heat into to rears and i've slowly got the pressure down to 22psi and it's much nicer. 28 up front.

the killer is also..nights here currently are low 50's high 40's so the track is fukn COLD. 

but thanks guys..it's far too long, i miss racing , let alone track days and so on. 7.5 years is far too long of a break. fukn hawaii.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

i need to figure out how and where to fabricate a solid safe tow hook for the front of my car. the early westy front didn't have a tow spot...weeee...it's a requirement out here for tracks days.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Vegeta Gti said:


> i need to figure out how and where to fabricate a solid safe tow hook for the front of my car. the early westy front didn't have a tow spot...weeee...it's a requirement out here for tracks days.


You can do what i did. 
buy a tow loop , drill and run a 18mm bolt :thumbup:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

My front end is thin. .. damn early Westy


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Thinking of going through my thin bumper into bumper bracket that attaches to the frame rail. One on each side. Balance out the pull


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## FilxNZ2 (Nov 9, 2009)

Vegeta Gti said:


> Thinking of going through my thin bumper into bumper bracket that attaches to the frame rail. One on each side. Balance out the pull


Is there a risk with that kind of setup someone gives it a good yank at some stage and it pulls the frame rails together?


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Vegeta Gti said:


> Thinking of going through my thin bumper into bumper bracket that attaches to the frame rail. One on each side. Balance out the pull


not sure what you mean . one on each side


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

BR_337 said:


> not sure what you mean . one on each side


I think he means two tow hook/straps, one on each side of the front to spread the load more evenly than a single point. The problem is most tracks only hook cars at a single point and will grab whatever is more convenient for the position. I've seen Y tows before, but that was in sanctioned professional spec races where all the cars on the field had the dual hook as a spec. 

I say use a tow strap instead of a hook and securely anchor somewhere structurally sound. The advantage with tow straps is they can be had in much longer length than a typical hook, and they are flexible in the routing to expose the strap. :beer:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Only thing structurally sound. . Is under the car...


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

TODAY WAS 65 degrees here in ATL. 
PERFECT DAY TO TAKE THE RACECAR FOR A SPIN 



























































:beer::beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I think he means two tow hook/straps, one on each side of the front to spread the load more evenly than a single point. The problem is most tracks only hook cars at a single point and will grab whatever is more convenient for the position. I've seen Y tows before, but that was in sanctioned professional spec races where all the cars on the field had the dual hook as a spec.
> 
> I say use a tow strap instead of a hook and securely anchor somewhere structurally sound. The advantage with tow straps is they can be had in much longer length than a typical hook, and they are flexible in the routing to expose the strap. :beer:


Agreed !:beer:


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## FilxNZ2 (Nov 9, 2009)

I got along to a couple o track days in Feb including last Sunday. The Mk4 R32 brakes and Hawk 9012s have sorted out most of the braking issues and I can now do a full session with no fading, though the pedal travel is longer than I would ideally like. But for the moment that is a acceptable and better than anything I have tried previously. At some stage I will move to a 2 piece rotor and some lighter calipers to try and save some unsprung weight. 

The main interesting thing (for me anyway) has been playing around with the boost levels. Our local track has two slow 2nd gear corners, one a right hander that then goes up a short straight, over a sharp crest and into a tightening downhill right hander that is also 2nd gear. Both of those corners I get a lot of wheelspin and understeer out unless I am very careful on the throttle and both ways seemed to be killing the corner exit speed. So I was slowly tuning the boost down to a point where I could get maximum(ish) traction on exit, which turned out to be approx 17psi and I eventually netted my best lap time ever with this strategy.

What I was missing though the shove in the back and pull up the two long straights on the track as I usually run 22-23 psi. So the obvious answer is some sort of selectable boost with a momentary type button that I can push from the steering wheel and release when i want to go back to low boost. The EBC Street boost controller I'm using has the two boost settings and can support an external button. I don't really need anything as flash as boost by individual gear as once into 3rd gear my setup is not making the kind of power that will spin 3rd gear in the dry. I started mucking around trying to make some sort of button mount but that was all ugly, so did some searching and ended up ordering one of these button mounts from here 

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/steering-wheel-bosses-accessories/sparco-steering-wheel-buttons



Not sure how good quality they are but I'll see when it arrives I suppose. Also bear in mind my car is right hand drive which is why the button is on the right. I figure I can use the redundant airbag wiring through the slip ring for a tidy install. After that I will be interested to see the benefit of better traction out of the corners and some extra boost to pull the dirty old Vento (Jetta) along the straights. 

And here's a random pic of the old girl parked in the pits


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Still running a front swaybar? I put $5 the majority of the wheelspin gets tamed (and some of the exit push will also disappear) if you run sans-swaybar. Obviously, to totally nail the ditching-the-bar approach, stiffer front spring would be eventually needed to restore the previous wheel rate -- but even without, this trick has been helping front-heavy FWD McPherson cars turn without roasting the inner fronts for decades. 

Curious, what's your static camber compensation? And how is front roll control at this point?


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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Curious, what's your static camber compensation?


I am also curious how much camber and caster you and some of the other cars are running? Are you running camber/caster plates? What is a good goal, as much negative camber and positive caster as possible?


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I'll run about -3deg camber up front and -1.5 rear. 

9 deg caster


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

ticketed2much said:


> I am also curious how much camber and caster you and some of the other cars are running? Are you running camber/caster plates? What is a good goal, as much negative camber and positive caster as possible?


My current front setup is at -3.7 camber and around 10* of caster. The thing is, you need to balance it out as too much of a good thing can become a bad thing (although dealing with production car suspension designs demands compromising). At some point, I used to have to run upward of 5* of front camber in order to stay in the happy range of the dynamic camber curve. It did help the car turn pretty well (despite the horrible intrinsic dynamic of our McPherson fronts), and tire temperature spread was evenly distributed across the contact patch (an indication that all the tire is doing work). However, braking and on-throttle corner exit traction suffered -- I saw it as a necessary compromise to get the car to turn as I was giving some away to gain a bit more with the front tires working in the meat of the camber curve. So, there is definitely a happy medium and some compromising is needed. 

At some point though, I rolled my skirt up and built some ball joint relocating plates that gave me a good amount of caster over stock. The benefit of caster is dynamic camber gain -- meaning that the outside front tire gains camber with body roll. With this beneficial effect of caster, static camber compensation can be dialed back and the braking and on-throttle negative byproducts can be kept to a minimum. With the added caster, I found that -3.6 degree of camber was enough to give me the same temperature spread as I was getting with 5 degrees without the caster. Win/win! 



Gulfstream said:


> I'll run about -3deg camber up front and -1.5 rear.
> 
> 9 deg caster


That's a good middle of the road setup. With the caster you have, you should have plenty of mid-corner grip and putting power down at exit shouldn't be too problematic with the mild level of camber. :thumbup:


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## FilxNZ2 (Nov 9, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Still running a front swaybar? I put $5 the majority of the wheelspin gets tamed (and some of the exit push will also disappear) if you run sans-swaybar. Obviously, to totally nail the ditching-the-bar approach, stiffer front spring would be eventually needed to restore the previous wheel rate -- but even without, this trick has been helping front-heavy FWD McPherson cars turn without roasting the inner fronts for decades.
> 
> Curious, what's your static camber compensation? And how is front roll control at this point?


Yes I'm running an OEM VR6 front swaybar. Thanks for the advice, I'll try with the front swaybar detached next time and see how that feels.

My static camber is just under 3 degrees which from memory was about the max I could pull out of the factory suspension parts. I can't remember the castor setting but it's also limited by the factory alignment capability. More castor and as little camber as possible would help me as my car is a complete compromise as it does multiple duties - track days, road driving and the occasional drag meet.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

I haven't seen much discussion in terms of batteries that you fellas run in your track/daily cars. I'm currently on an ETX30L with no issues running it through the single digits cold weather we've been having here in the northeast. 

Anyone give those lithium ferous phosphate batteries a try? Pricey but stupid light. 

Max I thought of you actually when I saw these batteries. I remember you running a really small deka in the trunk of the TT that needed a little help to crank over at waterfest. The lithium booster packs are about the size of a desktop hard drive and have plenty of umph to crank over the 1.8t multiple times. I tested mine out and it started the car 39 times back to back before being unable to.

These things average 1-4lbs depending on which one you choose. They just don't like excessively hot temps so relocation is recommended.

Starkpower.com 

That's the one I was thinking of trying out in the spring.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> My current front setup is at -3.7 camber and around 10* of caster. The thing is, you need to balance it out as too much of a good thing can become a bad thing (although dealing with production car suspension designs demands compromising). At some point, I used to have to run upward of 5* of front camber in order to stay in the happy range of the dynamic camber curve. It did help the car turn pretty well (despite the horrible intrinsic dynamic of our McPherson fronts), and tire temperature spread was evenly distributed across the contact patch (an indication that all the tire is doing work). However, braking and on-throttle corner exit traction suffered -- I saw it as a necessary compromise to get the car to turn as I was giving some away to gain a bit more with the front tires working in the meat of the camber curve. So, there is definitely a happy medium and some compromising is needed.
> 
> At some point though, I rolled my skirt up and built some ball joint relocating plates that gave me a good amount of caster over stock. The benefit of caster is dynamic camber gain -- meaning that the outside front tire gains camber with body roll. With this beneficial effect of caster, static camber compensation can be dialed back and the braking and on-throttle negative byproducts can be kept to a minimum. With the added caster, I found that -3.6 degree of camber was enough to give me the same temperature spread as I was getting with 5 degrees without the caster. Win/win! (Snip)


Hi all :wave: Been avoiding the Circus for awhile, but this thread always catches my eye.

With 10 degrees of Castor, do you find any negative effects from weight jacking? That's one of the issues with running a lot of Castor on Mac struts. I've always tried to keep castor below 5 degrees on all of my Autocross/Road race cars, although I don't run FWD.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

spartiati said:


> I haven't seen much discussion in terms of batteries that you fellas run in your track/daily cars. I'm currently on an ETX30L with no issues running it through the single digits cold weather we've been having here in the northeast.
> 
> Anyone give those lithium ferous phosphate batteries a try? Pricey but stupid light.
> 
> ...


Hey Steve, how are you surviving this winter thrown at us this year? That battery at waterfest was a 5+ year old Deka etx-14 that had seen better days. Believe it or not, it served me well in double duty with the evo for a couple of years, than got relegated to the the Satrurn race car for a while, left dead for an entire year, and finally moved to the TT for another few years. Funny thing is I went to Deka to buy a replacement (they're local to me on Long Island), told them the abuse that this little suckers took before giving up, and they handed me a new one for free. 

I hear you on the lithium batteries, the weight saving is insane and they push a lot of CCA for their physical size. It's one of these things that you have at the bottom of your wish list, and can't justify doing until a replacement for what you already have is needed. It's like cams, I know I want to experiment with them, but I'm not going to pull the valve cover until it's needed for some other reason.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Chickenman35 said:


> Hi all :wave: Been avoiding the Circus for awhile, but this thread always catches my eye.
> 
> With 10 degrees of Castor, do you find any negative effects from weight jacking? That's one of the issues with running a lot of Castor on Mac struts. I've always tried to keep castor below 5 degrees on all of my Autocross/Road race cars, although I don't run FWD.


Hey Richard, I think it's safe to say that this specific thread is safe-zone from the drag Gestapo. They won't venture in here with this kind of thread title and discussion -- words like steering wheel, suspension, brakes, and aero are what silver or a cross are to vampires. 

There is no issue with weight jacking up to 10 degrees of caster with this platform. Let's not froget that there is already 7.5 degrees from the factory, so it's not like we're excessively increasing the parameter. 

What you're saying is generally true though, there is a point of diminishing return with increasing the caster angle on McPherson-based steering axles (say running 10* in cars with the typical 4-5 degrees they use to come with back in the days). Nowadays manufacturers tend to dial way more in their designs. Therefore angles that used to be a red flag before are totally within the norm. It's like the insanely high compression ratio and lean AFR that turbocharged cars run with these days due to the improvement in technology - we would call BS if told 15 years ago that it was factory normal to run 12.5:1 CR with on-boost Lambda leaner than 0.85, but it's nothing for manufacturers nowadays.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Hey Richard, I think it's safe to say that this specific thread is safe-zone from the drag Gestapo. They won't venture in here with this kind of thread title and discussion -- words like steering wheel, suspension, brakes, and aero are what silver or a cross are to vampires.


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

lol


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Great discussion here as always guys ..:thumbup:

Max , I've been thinking about dropping my front sway . But, i think i'll wait until i go up in spring rates . 
Right now, my car actually handes pretty damn good with only -1.5 on r888s 

I do get some wheel spin at low speed mid and exit corner IF i get on WOT too early. But i feel that's normal on any HIGH horsepower or 
high power/ to weight ratio car.. 

I'm basing this on lap times . 
For example: 
My" FIRST "trackday at ROAD Atlanta with NO BRAKES on was 1:49 best.

Nasa /scca miata spec cars (200hp ) run 1:44 -145 
I do have a bit more power (15lbs only on track ) But......... 1 i had almost no brakes. 2. Was my first time there 3. I'm not at their level as a driver . And 4. those are fully track prepped cars . 

So. yes! car is handling very well . Could it get better ? Ohhhhhhh yes :laugh:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Agreed. ..I need more spring rate and just better suspension. 
I'm currently running -1.6 and 4.4 caster up front.

Gotta get camber plates soon. So it's easier to adjust and I can set my tire to strut spacing and still adjust camber.


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## 225TTed (Nov 28, 2014)

Speaking of batteries... 

How would running a starkpower battery in lieu of a normal battery in our cars fair? Anyone run one? I noticed they have a battery that cross references with a Deka etx-14, so I'd lean towards that... I'm just curious how they'd hold up on a car that's driven a few times a week. Sometimes daily for fun blasts outside of track duties. The batteries literally weigh nothing... so that would be a super solid place to kick weight.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

225TTed said:


> Speaking of batteries...
> 
> How would running a starkpower battery in lieu of a normal battery in our cars fair? Anyone run one? I noticed they have a battery that cross references with a Deka etx-14, so I'd lean towards that... I'm just curious how they'd hold up on a car that's driven a few times a week. Sometimes daily for fun blasts outside of track duties. The batteries literally weigh nothing... so that would be a super solid place to kick weight.


They will handle the car fine, many racers have made the switch to lithium and are loving it. I wouldn't suggest using a battery outputing cold CCA matching an ETX-14. Racers use batteries like the ETX-14 as a compromise between power, weight, and size. If you're starting from scratch with a newer technology lithium battery, go with something with more juice since they are already so light and small. This is the one I would run if my Deka kicked the bucket (500A CCA for under $200).

http://store.starkpower.com/12V15Ah...m-Ion-Starter-Battery-FREE-CHARGER-_p_53.html


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

That deka was a beast. I had one etx18l completely die on me. It was my fault for killing it a handful of times. I tried to revive it and it wasn't having it. For daily use I decided to up the amp hours to the etx30l. Its still lighter than OEM, cheap and cranked the car over with no issues last week. Car sat for two weeks since my surgery and it struggled alittle to crank over. It fired up on the morning it was 2 degrees, so I'd count that as a win. I thought of running a line and getting a lithium to put where the CD changer is in the hatch. Plenty of room for those mini batteries in there.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

BR_337 said:


> Great discussion here as always guys ..:thumbup:
> 
> Max , I've been thinking about dropping my front sway . But, i think i'll wait until i go up in spring rates .
> 
> ...


You got that right, there is always room for improvement! 

What you should do the next time you're out, is disconnect the swaybar link for one session after running with it connected for a session. This way you can let the clock tell you how much there is to gain from it. This always is an eye opener experiment... you should give it a whirl.

As for on-throttle lack of traction being normal on high horsepower/low weight vehicles, you know me, I'll never agree. Behavior like that (to me at least) is always a lack of refinement in the setup. There is no reason why, beside lack of development, you shouldn't be able to stand on the throttle past your apex, and have nothing but traction. I never see professional series with cars roasting their inside front tires, although it's quite usual to witness in amateur racing. :beer::beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

spartiati said:


> That deja was a beast. I had one etx28l completely die on me. It was my fault for killing it a handful of times. I tried to revive it and it wasn't having it. For daily use I decided to up the amp hours to the rtx30l. Its still lighter than OEM, cheap and cranked the car over with no issues last week. Car sat for two weeks since my surgery and it struggled to crank over. It fired up on the morning it was 2 degrees, so I'd count that as a win. I thought of running a line and getting a lithium to put where the CD changer is in the hatch. Plenty of room for those mini batteries in there.


Do it !!!


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> You got that right, there is always room for improvement!
> 
> What you should do the next time you're out, is disconnect the swaybar link for one session after running with it connected for a session. This way you can let the clock tell you how much there is to gain from it. This always is an eye opener experiment... you should give it a whirl.
> 
> As for on-throttle lack of traction being normal on high horsepower/low weight vehicles, you know me, I'll never agree. Behavior like that (to me at least) is always a lack of refinement in the setup. There is no reason why, beside lack of development, you shouldn't be able to stand on the throttle past your apex, and have nothing but traction. I never see professional series with cars roasting their inside front tires, although it's quite usual to witness in amateur racing. :beer::beer:


Max, maybe Didn't explain my self correctly. 
I meant Mid corner and Corner exit ( low speed corner At WOT ). Yes, getting on throttle past the apex is always the plan . and i do get on it .but not 100% throttle. Thats what i meant. 

REALLY depends on the turn of course. 

But I'm definitely going to try your idea of disconnecting the front sway at the track. and compare It.
didn't think about that that's a great idea thank you Bro


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

We're on the same page, what I'm saying is it's possible to tune the suspension to be able to stand on the throttle (as in pedal to the metal) from mid-corner out. No feathering or modulating, just plain point and shoot (even low speed WOT stuff). 


Do share your results when you give the front bar delete comparo a try! opcorn:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> We're on the same page, what I'm saying is it's possible to tune the suspension to be able to stand on the throttle (as in pedal to the metal) from mid-corner out. No feathering or modulating, just plain point and shoot (even low speed WOT stuff).
> Do share your results when you give the front bar delete comparo a try! opcorn:


That would be wonderful lol 

I will share for sure brother . :beer:

Though i might have to put a hold on tracking for 7 weeks if i lock up This Fight in April.  ( Imma pro fighter )
But if i don't, ill only fight in may. So ill try to get 2 track events before the may fight  

But ill report back .:beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Nice, I didn't know you were a pro fighter. :thumbup::thumbup: What kind of fighting, MMA?


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Nice, I didn't know you were a pro fighter. :thumbup::thumbup: What kind of fighting, MMA?


Yeah me and my two brothers lol 
My twin actually is number two in the UFC in the bantanweight division. :thumbup:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

dominick cruz?


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## 225TTed (Nov 28, 2014)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> They will handle the car fine, many racers have made the switch to lithium and are loving it. I wouldn't suggest using a battery outputing cold CCA matching an ETX-14. Racers use batteries like the ETX-14 as a compromise between power, weight, and size. If you're starting from scratch with a newer technology lithium battery, go with something with more juice since they are already so light and small. This is the one I would run if my Deka kicked the bucket (500A CCA for under $200).
> 
> http://store.starkpower.com/12V15Ah...m-Ion-Starter-Battery-FREE-CHARGER-_p_53.html



Awesome. I think that's 100% on the list of stuff to start buying.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

While we're on the topic of handling and shaving weight, anyone did or plan to do any mods to shed some unsprung weight from the suspension itself? I know the usual and easy way to do this is with lighter brakes, wheel/tires, but anyone going beyond the usual and tackling suspension components themselves?

I just picked up a set of 800 lbs/in front swift springs to go along with my freshly revalve H&R RSS Clubsports. The reason for the move is multifold, Swift makes the best conventional springs in the market. They are lighter with less coil counts (which also provide more dynamic stroke), and more consistent than any other brand with less than 10 lbs variation in weight through their range of motion. 

The spring I picked are also 5" in length versus the usual 6-8" tall that comes with most MK4 front coilovers. This not only moves the perches/colars upward to clear the inner edge of the wheel/tire combo (thus freeing room for wider wheel/tire) - but also removes quite a bit of unsprung weight by being shorter and ligher. I will also ditch the tender springs that the coilovers came with, further lightening things. 

I'm also thinking of adapting a set of aluminum MK5 control arms to the MK4 front, this will require some fabrication since the rearward attachment point is of a different design, but fabrication doesn't scare me. Thoughts? 


5" Swift springs I'm switching to:












Other conventional 6" springs that I ran before (650 and 700 lbs/in). Notice how the H&R one had saged while the ground control retained their length although with more service life than the original H&R. This proves that not all springs are created equal, and that's where the superiority of the swift will make a tangible difference. 










The useless (for performace at least) tenders that will be ditched. The idea behind them is to provide preload for full droop situations and mostly initially soften the stret ride with their tender rate, something that is useless for pure performance and a car that focuses on track duties. Also a great pic to illustrate the beefiness of inverted monotubes that to me should be the basis of motorport coilovers (if your track coilovers aren't inverted monos you're behind in the game IMO). 










And finally what's been replaced overall by the improved lighter and shorter springs


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I'm also thinking of adapting a set of aluminum MK5 control arms to the MK4 front, this will require some fabrication since the rearward attachment point is of a different design, but fabrication doesn't scare me. Thoughts?



I say do it !! :thumbup: it will def be beneficial.And if new control arm isn't too expensive. 

I'll be in for feed back on new springs as I'm planing to do the same later this year :thumbup:.
You made a good point with the shorter springs. It will give you more room to go wider w/o adding spacers Which is great. And the stiffer rates will help even more with body roll sense your roll bar doesn't help as much as the kind that i have. 

So great choice max!!

If you dont mind me asking 
What's the $ for the reValving and these springs ? 
I need to call ST suspension soon..

:beer::beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Feedback on the swifts are all over, I've done this before with several high end coilovers ( Zeals with the Saturn, Ohlins and AST 5100's with the EVO) the positive results are always hard to believe for such a simple thing. 

Here is a good thread that showcases what the swifts springs are and can do:
http://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/suspension/157535-swift-springs-dynoed.html

The springs are a little under $100 per spring (obviously depending on length, rate etc.) 

As for revalving cost, I don't think I'll be that much help as I only buy/use coilovers that are rebuildable and revalvable from the manufacturer. Every brand has their own price for rebuilding and revalving, some brands like KW/ST are based overseas which complicate things even more (I don't even think they offer revalving on those, they shamelessly try to upsale you into their KW Clubsport or Motorsports which are crap IMO for what they offer at their price point). Bilstein California for example charges $85 per shock to rebuild/revalve and that's including dyno plots. Some brands like Konis can be revalved, serviced pretty much anywhere at around the same cost, but I'm not into twin-tube/oil-based designs anymore (been there done that and graduated from that mess :laugh. 

To be honest, with what you do with the car, when these entry level ST things are done, just upgrade to real Motorsport capable coilovers. The clock will thank you... :beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Feedback on the swifts are all over, I've done this before with several high end coilovers ( Zeals with the Saturn, Ohlins and AST 5100's with the EVO) the positive results are always hard to believe for such a simple thing.
> 
> Here is a good thread that showcases what the swifts springs are and can do:
> http://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/suspension/157535-swift-springs-dynoed.html
> ...


You're right man.. I'm just gonna wait and get an appropriate set of coils. 
I wish i would've spoken with you before i bought the st's. Though , i got them when i first swapped the motor .And the plan was for a street car.
That was before my first ever trackday. Sense then, things have change dramatically lol

:beer:


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## FilxNZ2 (Nov 9, 2009)

Another question if I may - what sort of oil temps and EGTs are acceptable and/or ideal?

I'm typically at ~230F (110C) oil temp creeping to ~240F (115C) if the day is hot (ambient air temp over ~77F/25C) or the sessions are much longer than ~15 mins. For reference my oil temp probe is in the sump. EGTs I get up to 1400F very quickly and then over the course of the session it will work it's way up to 1600F (EGT probe is in the downpipe about 1" after the turbo outlet)

Any advice is much appreciated.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

The thing with both oil temp and EGT monitoring is that the sensor/probe location makes a big difference. Oil temp in the pan will be very different than oil that has cycled through and gone into the oil/coolant exchanger. Same goes for EGT, pre-turbine probing (which is the preffered location) will not compare to post-turbine temp readings. I've heard wild 100-300 average drop in temperature after the turbine (depending on the turbo operating efficiency). Therefore, having some baseline to compare is about the only consistent way to gauge your temperatures when using unconventional sensor/probe locations. 

With that said, I don't worry with good synthetic oil temp until they shoot past 250+*F (at 300*F I usually do some cool down lap to get things resonable again). EGT, 1650*F is a good track cutoff point for me (probing pre-turbine though). I hope this helps.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I regularly see 1750F (collector) when I rev past 7000rpm.... Drops fast with 82 housing and no cat tho... Oil temp around 100C on hot days when I push for 20mins +. Have external oil cooler and the probe is in the sump.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Good info. I haven't monitor oil temp yet. 
I'v been always more worried about oil pressure. And engine temp. Only have those gauges. 

But, i will either get an oil temp gauge or use torque pro to monitor it.


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## FilxNZ2 (Nov 9, 2009)

Thanks guys, good info.

I will look at moving my EGT probe to the collector pre turbo. Sounds like the excuse I need t change to a low mount manifold rather than the high mount currently on there. High mount was not one of my better ideas way back when we built the car, especially in RHD world with the brake booster in the way of the downpipe. :banghead: But I digress..........


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> They will handle the car fine, many racers have made the switch to lithium and are loving it. I wouldn't suggest using a battery outputing cold CCA matching an ETX-14. Racers use batteries like the ETX-14 as a compromise between power, weight, and size. If you're starting from scratch with a newer technology lithium battery, go with something with more juice since they are already so light and small. This is the one I would run if my Deka kicked the bucket (500A CCA for under $200).
> 
> http://store.starkpower.com/12V15Ah...m-Ion-Starter-Battery-FREE-CHARGER-_p_53.html


These look like some wicked battery's and very cheap for the tech in comparison to other brands, I had an oddessey extreme but that discharged to low and swelled like a balloon on charge so am in the market for a new battery 

These look perfect but am a bit cagey if the one linked will be man enough without having to be constantly charged? Plus main other concern will be the amount of power my intank and 2 044's will draw, do you guys think will be better off with 21 or 27ah or is it just not needed?


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

From my understanding the amp hour rating is more a measure of the capacity of the battery. So with the engine not running and you using peripherals, how long can the battery last. 

With that said if its a track car I think the smaller should be fine. The alternator is what is really supplying the necessary amperage when the car is running. 

When my current battery dies (if it does) then I will go for the 27ah only because my car is more of a street car/weekend warrior.


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

Thanks mate think although its not my daily it will still do a lot of road work and weekend drives in the summer as well as fairly long periods of time sitting on the drive and my main concern is that don't want to have to start jumping or charging it everytime has been parked for a few weeks


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

The best part is there isn't much of a weight difference between both options. Also size doesn't increase all that much if I remember offhand. Just costs more.


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

True that 

Another consideration I had was to run two of these in parallel as will have 24Ah capacity and lighter and less cost than the 21Ah

http://store.starkpower.com/12V12Ah...m-Ion-Starter-Battery-FREE-CHARGER-_p_62.html


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Positive MotoIq review so far on these - a little pricey though... https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group.asp?GroupID=BALLISTICAR


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Too pricey IMO when there are much cheaper alternatives. Positive reviews from a trusted group like MotoIQ is great, but at this point, this new battery technology is all uncharted territory to most, therefore an investment is pretty much a gamble. Call me cheap, but I'll gamble on the cheaper ones.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Too pricey IMO when there are much cheaper alternatives. Positive reviews from a trusted group like MotoIQ is great, but at this point, this new battery technology is all uncharted territory to most, therefore an investment is pretty much a gamble. Call me cheap, but I'll gamble on the cheaper ones.


Agreed. Would NEVER pay that much for a battery unless I'm driving an LMP1 on track :laugh:

Sh!t .. Go to Autozone , and grab an miata duralast.
Been using for 2yrs now with no issues. Very small and light. $100


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Too pricey IMO when there are much cheaper alternatives. Positive reviews from a trusted group like MotoIQ is great, but at this point, this new battery technology is all uncharted territory to most, therefore an investment is pretty much a gamble. Call me cheap, but I'll gamble on the cheaper ones.


It is pricey... I mentioned it last post to avoid anyone having a heart attack when they saw the small one is $360 

Aside from the weight, the safety and power characteristics of this product are pretty impressive. Of course, new tech is... unproven and more expensive at first - worth keeping an eye on though. Here's the little article...

http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArtic...-with-a-Pegasus-Racing-Ballistic-Battery.aspx 



BR_337 said:


> Agreed. Would NEVER pay that much for a battery unless I'm driving an LMP1 on track :laugh:
> 
> Sh!t .. Go to Autozone , and grab an miata duralast.
> Been using for 2yrs now with no issues. Very small and light. $100


It is a couple hundred more than the Stark battery linked above but not ridiculous... it really depends what you _need_ out of a battery too. A Miata Duralast is small but not in the same league of product so they're not a good comparison.

For the time being, I'm not really concerned with weight as much as weight balance anyway... one of these days my full sized battery will be moved to the trunk, opposite side of the engine. Then, when weight is more of a concern I can look at the products I'm familiar with to see whats best suited for the job :beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

^^^ The way I see it, with such new technology and every manufacturer promissing the moon, I'd buy two starkpower ones before spending on the ballistic ones. When there is someone cutting a blank check for parts, people have a different outlook on things -- but a battery only need to start and run a track car with consistency (this is the official track thread I think). None of the usage-at-rest/blasting-radio concerns should apply here. I had the same reasoning way back in the day when facing the choice of spending double the cost of a Deka on a Braille or Odyssey... needless to say, I'm glad I went with the cheapest option that can get the job done.


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> ^^^ The way I see it, with such new technology and every manufacturer promissing the moon, I'd buy two starkpower ones before spending on the ballistic ones. When there is someone cutting a blank check for parts, people have a different outlook on things -- but a battery only need to start and run a track car with consistency (this is the official track thread I think). None of the usage-at-rest/blasting-radio concerns should apply here. I had the same reasoning way back in the day when facing the choice of spending double the cost of a Deka on a Braille or Odyssey... needless to say, I'm glad I went with the cheapest option that can get the job done.


I agree, about the manufacturers - it usually doesn't take too long before their claims are proven or exposed by enthusiasts thankfully.

That Starkpower batter looks impressive for sure. It doesn't work for me as I need something that's rated to -40*C... and that Ballistic battery likely doesn't operate that low either. A year or so ago I looked into a Deka which reportedly does work in the harsh winters up here... this isn't a concern for track only cars but many people daily their _trackday_ cars too. Nice to have options either way.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

All_Euro said:


> I agree, about the manufacturers - it usually doesn't take too long before their claims are proven or exposed by enthusiasts thankfully.
> 
> That Starkpower batter looks impressive for sure. It doesn't work for me as I need something that's rated to -40*C... and that Ballistic battery likely doesn't operate that low either. A year or so ago I looked into a Deka which reportedly does work in the harsh winters up here... this isn't a concern for track only cars but many people daily their _trackday_ cars too. Nice to have options either way.


I hear you, and hopelly with more racers adopting these new batteries, we'll know sooner than later which one can take the abuse or not. In your particular case or Steve's (spartiati), I would consider having two dedicated batteries with a modular mount. That's what I did in my evo for a while, and besides having to fabricate mount brackets that can strap both full-size and racing battery, it was a great compromise for a dual duty car. Just unhook the full size and swap for the mini when headed to the track. :thumbup:


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I hear you, and hopelly with more racers adopting these new batteries, we'll know sooner than later which one can take the abuse or not. In your particular case or Steve's (spartiati), I would consider having two dedicated batteries with a modular mount. That's what I did in my evo for a while, and besides having to fabricate mount brackets that can strap both full-size and racing battery, it was a great compromise for a dual duty car. Just unhook the full size and swap for the mini when headed to the track. :thumbup:


I've got something in the works. My friend has a 3d printer at work. I'm going to take some measurements and rig up a mount for my current battery. He'll print it for me and ill figure out how to secure it after. I'll put it in the back where the CD player is suppose to mount. After this semester at school I'll see if I can swing the extra cash for the lithium battery. I have other things I'm looking into buying.

Speaking of which

I'm actually contemplating a set of PSS9's for the car. I figure the lifetime warranty and inverted monotubes make it worth the investment. Thoughts?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

spartiati said:


> Speaking of which
> 
> I'm actually contemplating a set of PSS9's for the car. I figure the lifetime warranty and inverted monotubes make it worth the investment. Thoughts?


PSS9 or even PSS (same struts without the funky adjusting valves) are great buys IMO. They are great shocks being inverted monos, and can be revalved down the road to replace the softy default spring rates. Personally, I wouldn't even bother with the "adjustable dampening" feature of the 9 and use the extra coin saved from going with the PSS to get a revalve from Bilstein California. You could get used coilover metric springs for nothing off ebay and have a really competent coilover.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> PSS9 or even PSS (same struts without the funky adjusting valves) are great buys IMO. They are great shocks being inverted monos, and can be revalved down the road to replace the softy default spring rates. Personally, I wouldn't even bother with the "adjustable dampening" feature of the 9 and use the extra coin saved from going with the PSS to get a revalve from Bilstein California. You could get used coilover metric springs for nothing off ebay and have a really competent coilover.


Im gonna start by buying a used set of pss . and do one thing at a time while i still track the car on st's. 
Max, I'm thinking 700ft./800back spring rates .thoughts?

:beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

BR_337 said:


> Im gonna start by buying a used set of pss . and do one thing at a time while i still track the car on st's.
> Max, I'm thinking 700ft./800back spring rates .thoughts?
> 
> :beer:


That's a good rate for a MK2 track car (had to do a bit of research before feeling confindent in my response). It should land you in the high 2.x Hz range in terms of natural frequency which is the target for a car with aero modifications. 

It seems that there are two school of thoughts when setting up your chassis. A square setup with the same spring rate all around, and using a stiffer than stock rear anti-roll bar -- And as you have chosen, a staggered setup with stiffer rear springs, but using "stockish" rear anti-roll bar rate. I'm sure you know that the PSS will have to be revalved from the start to handle those rates since they fall way outside of the default valving range of these coilovers.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> That's a good rate for a MK2 track car (had to do a bit of research before feeling confindent in my response). It should land you in the high 2.x Hz range in terms of natural frequency which is the target for a car with aero modifications.
> 
> It seems that there are two school of thoughts when setting up your chassis. A square setup with the same spring rate all around, and using a stiffer than stock rear anti-roll bar -- And as you have chosen, a staggered setup with stiffer rear springs, but using "stockish" rear anti-roll bar rate. I'm sure you know that the PSS will have to be revalved from the start to handle those rates since they fall way outside of the default valving range of these coilovers.


Yes! I am aware buddy. I think I can get a good deal on a used set. It'll cost another 700-800 bucks to ship them /revalved and springs . So, it's gonna take some time lol..


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

^^^ :thumbup:


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## CD155MX (Dec 18, 2007)

There is a set of PSS Coils in the Socal Parts For Sale section that look really clean. They are not mine Just a heads up for anyone looking.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7133372-FS-Bilstein-PSS-Coilovers-for-Mk4-R32-or-TTQ


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

I have a gti not an r32. The rear suspension wouldn't work for me. Thanks for the offer


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

my less than 1.5 years old less than 20k fx400 decided to fail without the car even running.....good fun.


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## CD155MX (Dec 18, 2007)

Vegeta Gti said:


> my less than 1.5 years old less than 20k fx400 decided to fail without the car even running.....good fun.


ouch! How'd that happen?


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## CD155MX (Dec 18, 2007)

Hey everyone. I've got a question regarding PSS9 coils on my 20th GTI. I bought the car (with the coils already on the car) and it was about as low as PSS9's could go and the helpers were removed. I'm finishing up refreshing the entire front end on the car this weekend. 

I'm changing the cars setup from show :thumbdown: to go:thumbup:. I will be running the car at a much higher ride height to get the car to handle better. Are the helpers even necessary if I run the adjustment collars up high enough where they engage the spring even at full droop?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Vegeta Gti said:


> my less than 1.5 years old less than 20k fx400 decided to fail without the car even running.....good fun.


Sucks dude, what are you going with now? 



CD155MX said:


> Hey everyone. I've got a question regarding PSS9 coils on my 20th GTI. I bought the car (with the coils already on the car) and it was about as low as PSS9's could go and the helpers were removed. I'm finishing up refreshing the entire front end on the car this weekend.
> 
> I'm changing the cars setup from show :thumbdown: to go:thumbup:. I will be running the car at a much higher ride height to get the car to handle better. Are the helpers even necessary if I run the adjustment collars up high enough where they engage the spring even at full droop?


No, helpers (zero rate springs) are not really needed because all they do is to take up space vacated in full droop. If you can spin the collars to slightly engage the springs, they're pointless and add unnecessary unsprung weight. 

Tenders (low rate springs) however serve a different purpose. They do the same thing as helpers but also contribute to ride characteristcs, they are also accounted for in the valving (basicallly a makeshift progressive rate that allow more civil road manner). Tenders can be ditched too, but the resulting linear rate might not be best suited for what the dampers were vlaved for. 

BTW, I have tenders and helpers you could have for a song if you really wanted.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Sucks dude, what are you going with now?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

*exciting news guys *

Saturday im going to 
http://www.atlantamotorsportspark.com/the-circuits/ as A *member guest*. This means that we have the track to our selfs all day long. *Open Track* So, No run groups. We can literally be on the track for 8hrs straight. :laugh::thumbup:eace:

I've made friends with one of the menbers. He's letting me bring 4 more ttack junkie friends . 
I'm Gonna be doing a lot of testing. Staring with comparison in front sway connected/disconnect , different tire presures ,my new wilwoods calipers , DTC-30 race pads and slight camber adjustment. 
Man, Talk about excitement..  

:beer::beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Lucky bastard, free unlimited test-n-tune. In for a lot of testing results/data and pics. :thumbup:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Lucky bastard, free unlimited test-n-tune. In for a lot of testing results/data and pics. :thumbup:


Ugh, forgot to mention it. We have to pay the track $180 for insurance reasons. But still worth it as a trackday down here runs between $ 250-350 for 5 or 6. 20min sessions.
So yes! I'm still luck i think lol :thumbup:

I'll definitely have videos , and lap timer on different set ups to compare. 
:beer:


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

BR_337 said:


> *exciting news guys *
> 
> Saturday im going to
> http://www.atlantamotorsportspark.com/the-circuits/ as A *member guest*. This means that we have the track to our selfs all day long. *Open Track* So, No run groups. We can literally be on the track for 8hrs straight. :laugh::thumbup:eace:
> ...


Haha that's awesome


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## CD155MX (Dec 18, 2007)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Sucks dude, what are you going with now?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info Marcus :thumbup:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

*Saturday was a blast guys*

We had a lot of track time. cant wait to go back.
Even though , we had to share the track with the bikers . But we had 40min of every hour of the day ,
and the bikers 20min. So not bad at all:thumbup:

Here's few photos from pit lane. 


















As you can see. not many cars out there 











i am in the right lol 










Seth brought his 302 boss later in the day.










Man, 
This camaro was a beast ! 630whp . My buddy Dan only had 2 trackdays under his belt. Even with limited experience, he was out pacing 2 gt3s.. that thing just glue to the ground. Crazy! American cars has come a long way. 
They are also ruling GT racing .. 











*On to the technical suff:*:thumbup:

So, i was getting a little frustrated on the first few runs trying to keep up with the camaro and gt3s . The car was understeering a bunch!
and kept messing up my pace. with that happening , cause me to over braking and heating up the brakes too much :thumbdown:

Here's is the video of one of the first few runs :






As you can see.. bad understeer 


So, i gave our buddy Max a quick call to explain my issues ..
He advise me again to disconnect the FRONT SWAY BAR . So i did !

*WOW!!!! *
Different beast . night and day difference.
The car rotated sooo much better. Understeer was almost gone ,helping me keep and much better pace ,not overbrake etc...

See for your self 
Here's the Video of after disconnecting the sway bar:







So, as i enjoying the car , this happens :



















****king POS pipe broke. scary moment as i thought i blew the motor or a head gasket.


Here is video :banghead:







I got her fixed but by the time i got back from auto parts and fixed it. i was only one 40min session . 
I didnt wanna risk getting back on track as i had to drive her home 










cant wait to go back!! 
and thanks MAX :beer::beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Awesome Freddy, I'm happy I was able to provide insight that lead to positive steps in your track development! Car will be a beast when sorted with the new coilover project of yours. :thumbup::thumbup:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Awesome Freddy, I'm happy I was able to provide insight that lead to positive steps in your track development! Car will be a beast when sorted with the new coilover project of yours. :thumbup::thumbup:


Cant wait.  
And thanks again my friend ! ..

Later, lets talk to the guys here about that " vortex trackday meet " we spoke about 

:beer::beer:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

BR_337 said:


> lets talk to the guys here about that " vortex trackday meet " we spoke about
> 
> :beer::beer:


Keep it near ATL and I'm in!


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

BR_337 said:


> Cant wait.
> And thanks again my friend ! ..
> 
> Later, lets talk to the guys here about that " vortex trackday meet " we spoke about
> ...





20v master said:


> Keep it near ATL and I'm in!


What about VIR? It should be central enough to be within reasonable reach for all east coasters.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> What about VIR? It should be central enough to be within reasonable reach for all east coasters.


You're trying to make this a weekend event, not a day.  With enough notice and planning, it's possible.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> What about VIR? It should be central enough to be within reasonable reach for all east coasters.





20v master said:


> You're trying to make this a weekend event, not a day.  With enough notice and planning, it's possible.


Yes i was thinking the same.
VIR is pretty central for everyone. Think it's a 6 or 7 hr drive from atl .so not bad. 
Plus, i always wanted to track vir  

Summer??


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

If we can do Later in The summer then I will 100% be down to road trip it to Virginia...


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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

BR_337 said:


> So, i was getting a little frustrated on the first few runs trying to keep up with the camaro and gt3s . The car was understeering a bunch!
> and kept messing up my pace. with that happening , cause me to over braking and heating up the brakes too much :thumbdown:
> 
> 
> ...


So did you notice any less stability in high speed straights with no front sway?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> You're trying to make this a weekend event, not a day.  With enough notice and planning, it's possible.


It's an 8.5 hour drive for me to VIR, so there's no way it could be a one-day affair. 



BR_337 said:


> Yes i was thinking the same.
> VIR is pretty central for everyone. Think it's a 6 or 7 hr drive from atl .so not bad.
> Plus, i always wanted to track vir
> Summer??


Definitely Summer buddy. It's still winter basicallly for us up north. I've never done VIR either, so it won't be boring for me to track. 




spartiati said:


> If we can do Later in The summer then I will 100% be down to road trip it to Virginia...


That's awesome Steve! At least I'll have a ride home if I break something ... as usual.  :beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

ticketed2much said:


> So did you notice any less stability in high speed straights with no front sway?


I'll let Freddy answer, but I don't see how a swaybar can have any effect on straightline stability. Swaybars in the way they work, do not come in play until there is lateral load transfer - which generally only happen when turning. I've done the front bar delete in several MCPherson FWD/AWD platforms and the mod is seemless going down the front straights.


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## 225TTed (Nov 28, 2014)

VIR is a 9-9.5 hour drive for me, so it'd be a weekend event for me too, possibly a 3-day with some time to relax. 

Over the summer would be amazing.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

spartiati said:


> If we can do Later in The summer then I will 100% be down to road trip it to Virginia...


sounds good to me later in the summer . will give me enough time to finish new suspension set up  


ticketed2much said:


> So did you notice any less stability in high speed straights with no front sway?


Not at all! at least at 110-120mph @ AMP . i have not . :beer:



Marcus_Aurelius said:


> It's an 8.5 hour drive for me to VIR, so there's no way it could be a one-day affair.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup:


Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I'll let Freddy answer, but I don't see how a swaybar can have any effect on straightline stability. Swaybars in the way work, do not come in play until there is lateral load transfer - which generally only happen when turning. I've done the front bar delete in several MCPherson FWD/AWD platforms and the mod is seemless going down the front straights.


correct max . ill give feed back once i track at Road Atlanta where i hit 140+ mph on the back straight. but i like you said , dont think i ll any issues .:beer::beer:


225TTed said:


> VIR is a 9-9.5 hour drive for me, so it'd be a weekend event for me too, possibly a 3-day with some time to relax.
> 
> Over the summer would be amazing.


We can meet up sense Atl is on the way for you :thumbup:


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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I'll let Freddy answer, but I don't see how a swaybar can have any effect on straightline stability. Swaybars in the way work, do not come in play until there is lateral load transfer - which generally only happen when turning. I've done the front bar delete in several MCPherson FWD/AWD platforms and the mod is seemless going down the front straights.


Read online that deleting FSB could lead to less high speed stability, haven't tried it yet so I thought I'd ask. I think the idea is if front springs aren't heavy enough, could cause some sway/back and forth motion.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Hey guys. I recently replaced my steering rack after it decided to throw up steering fluid all over my driveway. The seals busted and it was dumping fluid out through the tie rod boot. I spent the money and replaced the rack as well as all the bushings in the front end. I opted for the solid steering rack mount as well as the solid subframe bushings. 

Now here's my little issue. I took the car for an alignment immediately and it seemed that I had more camber on the passenger side. 1.8* passenger vs 1.1* driver side. Car isn't slammed at all but also has the h2sport spindles.

My question is can I still shift the subframe over with the solid (metal) subframe bushings? I don't want to get another alignment for no reason.

Also interesting find on the internet: http://www.amazon.com/Moog-K90488-Cam-Bolt-Kit/dp/B000HPQ1C4

I was looking for sport rear shock mount part numbers on rockauto.com and found that Moog camber plate bushing. It looks identical to the SPC camber plate kit but for 2/3 the price. Considering fixing the alignment now and then installing these with the pss9's to get alittle more camber and keep things civil on the street at the same time.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

ticketed2much said:


> Read online that deleting FSB could lead to less high speed stability, haven't tried it yet so I thought I'd ask. I think the idea is if front springs aren't heavy enough, could cause some sway/back and forth motion.


You'll probably also read online that deletion of swaybars will reverse the earth's rotation, but this is a track/motorsports thread. Setup philosophy will likely deviate from what you typically will read online.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

ticketed2much said:


> Read online that deleting FSB could lead to less high speed stability, haven't tried it yet so I thought I'd ask. I think the idea is if front springs aren't heavy enough, could cause some sway/back and forth motion.





Marcus_Aurelius said:


> You'll probably also read online that deletion of swaybars will reverse the earth's rotation, but this is a track/motorsports thread. Setup philosophy will likely deviate from what you typically will read online.


Agreed with Max. 

Watch my vidoes front this past weekend .
You be the the judge .

:beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

spartiati said:


> Hey guys. I recently replaced my steering rack after it decided to throw up steering fluid all over my driveway. The seals busted and it was dumping fluid out through the tie rod boot. I spent the money and replaced the rack as well as all the bushings in the front end. I opted for the solid steering rack mount as well as the solid subframe bushings.
> 
> Now here's my little issue. I took the car for an alignment immediately and it seemed that I had more camber on the passenger side. 1.8* passenger vs 1.1* driver side. Car isn't slammed at all but also has the h2sport spindles.
> 
> ...


I say yes for both! :thumbup:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

s$hit just got real 










ill be sending these to Bilstien in Ca. to be revalved soon.
i think im gonna go with max's set up of using the swift springs :thumbup::thumbup:
700lbs front /800 lbs back 

ill track the car at least one or two more times on the ST's before im done with the Bilstein's rebuild.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Hey guys,

i think its time for a better cooling system too
I believe the y pipe broke also was because i was running a little too hot. as i forgot also to manually turn the high speed on the radiator fans:banghead::banghead: im planning on adding an hood air duck for better flow . i hope it helps..
If not , than i have to upgrade my radiator i guess...

thoughts?


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

http://m.summitracing.com/parts/flx-31147

My friend ran two of these on his mk1 build. One for each fan. He hasn't had one issue.

Also try and replace all the plastic junctions with metal variants or just replace them all with new ones. I just did the former so I never have to worry about plastic breaking again.


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## 225TTed (Nov 28, 2014)

BR_337 said:


> We can meet up sense Atl is on the way for you :thumbup:


That sounds like a plan! 

Those Bilstiens...  I've debated on picking up a second hand set to have re-valved and just buy swift springs. I'd probably save quite a bit in the long run, and can put the rest towards other needed parts!

As far as cooling, I think metal fittings and maybe a temperature sensor for the high speed fans (I used to forget ALL THE TIME in my 280Z.. haha) would probably do the trick. Ever thought of adding a hood vent like max? That and a little bit of ducting to make sure the heat post-radiator escapes would work well. :beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Freddy, you're going to love the revalved inverted monotube Billies (especially on swift springs). :thumbup::thumbup:

I'm going to have a different view on the fan situation. IMO, *if everything else is optimized, *you actually don't want the fans running (even worse at high speed) while moving on track. The spinning fans are an actual blockage for natural airflow and reduces the overall capacity for the radiator to dissipate heat. The fans running at high speed really work well when moving slowly or not moving at all (think caution flags and pit situations where you can't shut it down yet). 

Now with that said, you have to ensure that airflow efficiently gets to the radiator core, and equally as important, keeps moving after it has moved through the core. So, let's break it down into two points:

1) Getting airflow efficiently to the core

This is a bit straightforward, the more air that moves through your core, the better it is at achieving thermal exchange. Sealing openings around the radiator (pre-core) is the thing that helps the most. People usually don't realize it, but a good 30-40% of the air that makes is through the bumper openings, don't flow through the core but around it. Shrouding around the radiator core can help capture the majority of that wasted airflow. You'd be surprised how much of an effect such an easiy DIY weekend project can make with on-track coolant temp. 

The other thing that helps (maybe to a lesser degree depending of the front end design), is allowing more air to pass through the bumper openings. Go with any grill possible modifications or removal (these are usually busy and restrictive) -- and on a more extreme approach, cutting bigger openings in the bumper (if it's a track dog, it's function > form, look at my poor TT for example :laugh. 


2) Getting airflow to keep moving once it's past the core

This, in my case with the TT, made the most dramatic improvement. Most engine bay act like a sealed air receptacle. At speed, air goes in at a much faster rate than it escapes. This natural condition causes the bay to pressurize and block the fresh air that is trying to enter and move through the radiator. In my TT with its horrible front end for airflow, I never knew how bad it was until I cut the supporting skeleton on the hood to shave weight. After removing the support, the first time I hit 45 mph, the hood literally balloned from pressure inside the bay due to its weaker structure. This helped me realize how much pressurizing was in effect there. It was so bad, that I couldn't even drive the car until I added hood pins to stop the fender-side edges of the hood from flapping around like wings (from the positive bay pressure once moving at moderate speed). I added a hood extracting vent, and overnight the excessive bay pressure disappeared - I could drive at any speed without the pins locked and no more balloning and "flapping wings" of the hood. How much actual coolant temp difference did it make? For me, a big one! The car went from overheating after a few laps at 10/10th, to being able to run at 3/4 on the dummy gauge for extended full load use.

For a visual reference, my car's front end went from this (very busy and blocking lots of airflow):









To that abomination, but it's all worth it (please excuse the half popped out removable lower grill) :


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

Freddie, also evaluate your coolant hose layout. Make sure you have enough slack in each hose to avoid unwanted stress on the fittings/flanges.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

spartiati said:


> http://m.summitracing.com/parts/flx-31147
> 
> My friend ran two of these on his mk1 build. One for each fan. He hasn't had one issue.
> 
> Also try and replace all the plastic junctions with metal variants or just replace them all with new ones. I just did the former so I never have to worry about plastic breaking again.


my brother this on his 240 and always malfunction .. :thumbdown:
ill def will replace the plastic ones with aluminum or brass wherever i can . And the block ones ,ill just replace it :beer: 



225TTed said:


> That sounds like a plan!
> 
> Those Bilstiens...  I've debated on picking up a second hand set to have re-valved and just buy swift springs. I'd probably save quite a bit in the long run, and can put the rest towards other needed parts!
> 
> As far as cooling, I think metal fittings and maybe a temperature sensor for the high speed fans (I used to forget ALL THE TIME in my 280Z.. haha) would probably do the trick. Ever thought of adding a hood vent like max? That and a little bit of ducting to make sure the heat post-radiator escapes would work well. :beer:


yes!! im gonna do exactly what max did. :thumbup::beer::beer: 



Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Freddy, you're going to love the revalved inverted monotube Billies (especially on swift springs). :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> I'm going to have a different view on the fan situation. IMO, *if everything else is optimized, *you actually don't want the fans running (even worse at high speed) while moving on track. The spinning fans are an actual blockage for natural airflow and reduces the overall capacity for the radiator to dissipate heat. The fans running at high speed really works well when moving slowly or not moving at all (think caution flags and pit situations where you can't shut it down yet).
> 
> Now with that said, you have to ensure that airflow efficiently gets to the radiator core, and equally as important, keep moving after it has moved through the core. So, let's break it down into two points:


Max,
As always ,Much appreciated info buddy.:beer::beer:
Man, i am really excited about the new suspension set up 

Going back to Cooling system.
I did try to block off all gaps to force all airflow through the core. see pic bellow!

I'm sure one of my issues, is that i have to intercooler in front of the radiator . So , cutting /making more free air flow space through the front bumper is prob what i am going to have to do as well...Along with the hood duck. :thumbup:

Now, i have my fan as low speed on Ignition and manually high speed
Makes sense what you said how to optimize air flow , they should be off . But what about if i have that interccoler in front of it???

:beer::beer:

@Rey, i think im ok ther. But ill double check everything 
:beer::beer: 
btw, did you change your number ??


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## FilxNZ2 (Nov 9, 2009)

BR_337 said:


> *Saturday was a blast guys*
> 
> So, i gave our buddy Max a quick call to explain my issues ..
> He advise me again to disconnect the FRONT SWAY BAR . So i did !
> ...


^ This has me super excited! I'm back to our local track this week (02/04) for an evening session so will drop the sway bar link and see how it goes on the dirty old Mk3.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

FilxNZ2 said:


> ^ This has me super excited! I'm back to our local track this week (02/04) for an evening session so will drop the sway bar link and see how it goes on the dirty old Mk3.


:thumbup: GL and report back! 
:beer:


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I do confirm at least on the mk4 chassis, Cupra R in my case, removing the front sway bar all together removes some of the understeer. Tnx Max :thumbup: I still run slicks up front to get a good planted front end. 

For those with cooling problems I can suggest a high performance metal water impeller, 80c t-stat, never much above minimum in the reservoir, use distilled water and water wetter in addition to connecting your fans to run at low speed while on the track. I also removed a big part of the rubber gasket that seals the hood above the firewall to allow more flow. I never see above 90c on the track, even after 30mins mistreatment

:beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Gulfstream said:


> I do confirm at least on the mk4 chassis, Cupra R in my case, removing the front sway bar all together removes some of the understeer. Tnx Max :thumbup: I still run slicks up front to get a good planted front end.
> 
> For those with cooling problems I can suggest a high performance metal water impeller, 80c t-stat, never much above minimum in the reservoir, use distilled water and water wetter in addition to connecting your fans to run at low speed while on the track. I also removed a big part of the rubber gasket that seals the hood above the firewall to allow more flow. I never see above 90c on the track, even after 30mins mistreatment
> 
> :beer:


:beer::beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Great article on explaining presure to optimize the cooling system. 

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=2159

Definitely helps understand what needs to be done to improve air flow 
:beer:


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## FilxNZ2 (Nov 9, 2009)

BR_337 said:


> :thumbup: GL and report back!
> :beer:


Well that didn't quite go to plan. After 5 or so years and 20+ track days, some drag days and heaps of road miles the car finally had an issue that caused me to not complete the full event. Basically a crack appeared in the downpipe where the wastegate pipe merges into the main DP and that was me done for the day. I got about one and a half sessions in before the issue arose but was still trying to pull some consistent base laps to compare to without the sway bar. So I never got to try the no swaybar mod.

So I need to pull the engine to fix that issue, which is no major - but as summer down here is nearing an end and I have been mulling over what to do next anyway it is an opportunity to review. At a minimum I'll be changing to a low mount setup from the current top mount. I could V-band the current 3071R or I also have a 5857SP from a few years ago so could add that into the mix and maybe do some cams. But the major decision is whether to continue with the Mk3 or build something else. I have a Mk2 Golf here and I look at that and I can't help thinking it's an easy swap from where I am now and it's probably 200KG lighter. The other option is pick up a Mk1 TT Quattro and swap the bits into that and enjoy the traction benefits. Or build something a bit left field like putting the 1.8T into a Porsche 944.

Anyway some thinking ahead, it would however be interesting to hear peoples thoughts on what you think is the best chassis within the VAG family to base a trackday car on?


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

FilxNZ2 said:


> Anyway some thinking ahead, it would however be interesting to hear peoples thoughts on what you think is the best chassis within the VAG family to base a trackday car on?


Anything thats close to 50/50 weight distribution and not fwd :laugh:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Gulfstream said:


> Anything thats close to 50/50 weight distribution and not fwd :laugh:


Therefore not within the Vag family unless dropping some major coins...:laugh:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

True lol


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I actually think the 1.8T is one of the better motors for trackdays considering how lightweight they are. We have a few 5cyl S2 in my trackday club but they understeer massively in every corner. They are mad in a straight line tho.. 

Within VAG I'd look at a Haldex chassis with a 1.8T engine. TT, A3, S3, Cupra and Quattro A4

Decent performance on the track for a very decent price :beer:


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

If someone has a set of pss9's can they take a set of calipers to measure the putter diameter that goes into the spindle? I fought one side for 6 hours and it just was not going in. Between the spreader tool, pry bar... Basically nothing. I called up GMP and they said they recently revised the pss9's and they are waiting confirmation from bilstein directly. It seems like body is about 1/4" larger in diameter to the coilovers I was replacing.


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## CD155MX (Dec 18, 2007)

spartiati said:


> If someone has a set of pss9's can they take a set of calipers to measure the putter diameter that goes into the spindle? I fought one side for 6 hours and it just was not going in. Between the spreader tool, pry bar... Basically nothing. I called up GMP and they said they recently revised the pss9's and they are waiting confirmation from bilstein directly. It seems like body is about 1/4" larger in diameter to the coilovers I was replacing.


This help? Battery died on the calipers, but I'm getting ~49.5mm


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

CD155MX said:


> This help? Battery died on the calipers, but I'm getting ~49.5mm


Thank you! 

Seems like mine is 51.5mm according to my caliper. 

Going to contact bilstein on Monday.


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## CD155MX (Dec 18, 2007)

spartiati said:


> Thank you!
> 
> Seems like mine is 51.5mm according to my caliper.
> 
> Going to contact bilstein on Monday.


Wow that's a big difference. I'm curious to hear what billstein has to say.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Seems like I'm gonna have to sand down some of the coating in the part that goes into the knuckle. I'm waiting to hear back from Bilstein on Monday. I just want to confirm they sent me the correct shocks to begin with.

I removed the 6 piston 17z calipers from the car and installed the 996tt big reds on my r32 rotors. Night and day difference. Pedal is much firmer than before and the car stops well so far. Still bedding in the pads.

Hopefully I have time during the week to install the rear rotor upgrade I have set up.


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## FilxNZ2 (Nov 9, 2009)

Gulfstream said:


> I actually think the 1.8T is one of the better motors for trackdays considering how lightweight they are. We have a few 5cyl S2 in my trackday club but they understeer massively in every corner. They are mad in a straight line tho..
> 
> Within VAG I'd look at a Haldex chassis with a 1.8T engine. TT, A3, S3, Cupra and Quattro A4
> 
> Decent performance on the track for a very decent price :beer:


Yes agree re 1.8Ts for trackdays as they're cheap, light and can produce good power reliably. 

Re chassis I would class a B5 A4 slightly separately to the Haldex based cars. However one of the key things I'm wondering about is whether a Haldex/Quattro cars extra traction compensates for the weight penalty, or would a light weight, but 2WD Mk2 Golf potentially make for a quicker car?


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

FilxNZ2 said:


> Yes agree re 1.8Ts for trackdays as they're cheap, light and can produce good power reliably.
> 
> Re chassis I would class a B5 A4 slightly separately to the Haldex based cars. However one of the key things I'm wondering about is whether a Haldex/Quattro cars extra traction compensates for the weight penalty, or would a light weight, but 2WD Mk2 Golf potentially make for a quicker car?


I think it comes down to power. If you plan to stay below 300hp fwd might be a good option. Any more there are only benefits by driving a haldex/quattro car.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Scored 4 toyo RA1's (same as r888 with different thread pattern ) for $140 bucks from a spec miata shop.:thumbup::thumbup:
Gotta love 15inch wheels :laugh: ill never buy new tires again


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Anyone follows Pirelli World challange gts class??

The front wheel drive KIA's are very fast . beating Porsche, 302 boss , Camaros etc... 
watching the race today i noticed they run way more negative camber in the rear vs the front. got me thinking why

thoughts ???


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Maybe it's by driver preferences. Here is another fwd cup car:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Yeah ..maybe .
I was thinking suspension design could play a factor too huh


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Pure speculation, but maybe they run a little more toe out in front to make the turn in sharper and more aggressive. To offset the chance of getting the rear to swing out they run more camber?


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

spartiati said:


> Pure speculation, but maybe they run a little more toe out in front to make the turn in sharper and more aggressive. To offset the chance of getting the rear to swing out they run more camber?


Thats a valuable point. 
Those kia's most be tail happy


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

BR_337 said:


> I was thinking suspension design could play a factor too huh


It's track dependent! Looking at pictures of the Kias online, you can see that they set them like that for certain track (likely, the tight technical courses that reward rotation). On other tracks, their setup look more conventional with the amount of rear camber dialed (longer tracks with more sweeping turns). 



spartiati said:


> Pure speculation, but maybe they run a little more toe out in front to make the turn in sharper and more aggressive. To offset the chance of getting the rear to swing out they run more camber?


Steve, that ridiculous amount of camber in the back of FWD cars is usually a desperate attempt at getting rotation. So the aggressive rear does the opposite and removes grip on that axle to allow the rear to slide. It's a band-aid solution, but with not much suspension allowances in a production based class, forces race teams to compromise. 




BR_337 said:


> Those kia's most be tail happy


Quite the opposite. They're understeery by nature and very numb compared to other competitor's platforms due to their long wheelbase. Desperate situations calls for desperate measures!


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Ah i seee
thanks for clarifying it MAx :beer::beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

ST's sold .
ill be shipping the Pss to bilstein Ca. in few weeks for revalve.
In the mean time . 800lbs front /700 back swift springs will be purchased.
Cant wait 










And ill be pulling out the angle grinder for some weight reduction lol


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


>



This is awesome! ^ Max, your TT will be an evo in a few more years:laugh::laugh::laugh::thumbup: Evo DV... Evo FMIC (Installing mine soon!)... and now a Evo style hood!


Ive been toyin around the idea of NACA style ducts for the intake side of my B5 build... Also considered the hood vent, but want to be able to daily it (aka be able to open/close it)


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

RodgertheRabit II said:


> This is awesome! ^ Max, your TT will be an evo in a few more years:laugh::laugh::laugh::thumbup: Evo DV... Evo FMIC (Installing mine soon!)... and now a Evo style hood!
> 
> Ive been toyin around the idea of NACA style ducts for the intake side of my B5 build... Also considered the hood vent, but want to be able to daily it (aka be able to open/close it)


Lol, can't let go of the my DSM/Evo roots! 

NACA ducts will work great sitting on top a boxed cone filter. It's on my project list too for this season (until I can make a dummy headlight box to encase the filter and get ram-air feed).


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

FilxNZ2 said:


> ( Snip )
> 
> Anyway some thinking ahead, it would however be interesting to hear peoples thoughts on what you think is the best chassis within the VAG family to base a track day car on?


Late to the party but probably an Audi B5 series, IMHO. Inline gearbox is stronger, has a mechanical Torsen center diff that arguably is more reliable than a Haldex, better weight distribution and MUCH better engine cooling due to engine being longitudinal instead of transverse. But best of all you can swap in a 4.2 L V8!!! Or even a modern 2.5L 5 cylinder. I've also driven a few S4's set up for Track days with the V6 Turbo and they are bloody quick when Modded. But the 4.2L V8 just sounds so wicked. Engine options are plentiful.

Stripped down the A4 can be made reasonably light. Interior weighs a ton. 

The other option is an R32 although finding a cheap one may be tough. 

The AWD is the only way to go IMHO... especially in the Wet.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Chickenman35 said:


> Late to the party but probably an Audi B5 series, IMHO. Inline gearbox is stronger, has a mechanical Torsen center diff that arguably is more reliable than a Haldex, better weight distribution and MUCH better engine cooling due to engine being longitudinal instead of transverse. But best of all you can swap in a 4.2 L V8!!! Or even a modern 2.5L 5 cylinder. I've also driven a few S4's set up for Track days with the V6 Turbo and they are bloody quick when Modded. But the 4.2L V8 just sounds so wicked. Engine options are plentiful.
> 
> Stripped down the A4 can be made reasonably light. Interior weighs a ton.
> 
> ...




I wouldn't swap in a heavier motor to that chassis. WOuld make it understeer even more than it already does. We have a few 5cyl Audi's in our trackday club and those only like to go straight unless you make a scandinavian flip. 

Btw, I don't know how much drivetrainloss there is on a longitutal quattro setup but I measured 9whp loss in my Haldex gen 1 between FWD and permanent AWD. Kinda blew my mind that one as I had expected MUCH more loss...


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

I agree with O (although the B5 platform is very capable), I would not choose it over the A1/Mk4 AWD chassis. Haldex is very capable and a smart AWD. On top of that, the lower weight, shorter wheelbase, low parasitic drivetrain loss, are advantages that the B5 will not overcome with similar builds for road racing. 

If people only knew the true track potential of a TT for example. The multi-link rear offers tons of grip - with some work, the front can be turned into something very potent. Fix the roll center, remove longitudinal slop in the front control ams, run 3.5+ camber compensation, add some caster, dump the front swaybar, and you'll think that you're cornering a well setup miata. I am working on converting to MK2 TT aluminum control arms and spindles, once that's done I am confident that I will only be out-handled by stuff without fenders. 


Corrected roll center to eliminate the shortcomings of the camber curve









Camber/caster plates to get enough static camber compensation and dynamic camber gains to eliminate understeer


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Lol, can't let go of the my DSM/Evo roots!
> 
> NACA ducts will work great sitting on top a boxed cone filter. It's on my project list too for this season (until I can make a dummy headlight box to encase the filter and get ram-air feed).


Dont Blame you! Ive been adopting LOTs of parts for my 20v...

Heres a few shots of my Intake set up so far... I hooked the 3in pipe under the frame rail and up into the stock box location. Fabbed/painted an aluminum he shield that fits as snug as possible blocking heat. It seals up on the frame rail as well s the hood insulation and works great! 

Ive even thought about venting my fender liners to aid in pulling air/heat out of the area. I just cant find the right size duct that I want. Basically GTR style In size but Im not paying $700 for CF GTR pieces.


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

> Corrected roll center to eliminate the shortcomings of the camber curve


more info plz , link?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

RodgertheRabit II said:


> Dont Blame you! Ive been adopting LOTs of parts for my 20v...
> 
> Heres a few shots of my Intake set up so far... I hooked the 3in pipe under the frame rail and up into the stock box location. Fabbed/painted an aluminum he shield that fits as snug as possible blocking heat. It seals up on the frame rail as well s the hood insulation and works great!
> 
> Ive even thought about venting my fender liners to aid in pulling air/heat out of the area. I just cant find the right size duct that I want. Basically GTR style In size but Im not paying $700 for CF GTR pieces.



Well thought out, and looks good! :thumbup:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

elRey said:


> more info plz , link?


No info that can openly be shared at this point. They are customized (and adapted to TT spindles) prototypes of a coming product. :beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Posted in my build up thread in the TT forum, but I thought I should share this here too. 

Shortened 3.5" aluminum catback to complement my custom 4" expansion-chambered downpipe. The catback comes in at 7 lbs total for 30+ lbs of weight saving over the full-length steel setup. Build to SCCA F-prepared specs that allow the exhaust to terminate after the driver's seating position. The exhaust also needed to meet sound restrictions that can be as low as 95 db at 50 ft. As a result, a standard vibrant aluminum muffler was used as a primary muffling device, and a custom secondary home brew aluminum muffler was added. To complete the setup, a clamp-on turndown was added so it can be directed away from the db meter mic at various tracks. 

Mid-pipe with resonator mated to the 3.5" vibrant aluminum muffler










Fabricated secondary muffler to tuck in the tunnel and leave acceptable ground and driveshaft clearance 










Bolted to the car

















Sound clip at idle:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DKKcMlit0GE


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> No info that can openly be shared at this point. They are customized (and adapted to TT spindles) prototypes of a coming product. :beer:


Tease!


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## CD155MX (Dec 18, 2007)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Corrected roll center to eliminate the shortcomings of the camber curve





Marcus_Aurelius said:


> No info that can openly be shared at this point. They are customized (and adapted to TT spindles) prototypes of a coming product. :beer:


Does this mean that USRT is getting closer to releasing their Roll Center Ball Joint Kit? 

It seems like your ride height is appropriate for good handling and isn't that low yet you're still testing with this type of solution. Would something like this be beneficial even if someone is not running a low ride height? 

http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76_208_221&products_id=1994


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

opcorn:opcorn:

Max , will it fit mk2/3 ?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> Tease!


Says the guy with all the insider info! 



CD155MX said:


> Does this mean that USRT is getting closer to releasing their Roll Center Ball Joint Kit?
> 
> It seems like your ride height is appropriate for good handling and isn't that low yet you're still testing with this type of solution. Would something like this be beneficial even if someone is not running a low ride height?
> 
> http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76_208_221&products_id=1994


Yes, that means that USRT is not far from lauching something. However, there is a lot more to it than that. I don't want to spoil it, so I'll leave it as that. 

As for the roll center correction in relation to ride height, the benefits will always be there. By design, the roll couple is pretty long with the stock geometry (even at factory height). The roll couple, being the distance between the center of gravity and the roll center, acts as a lever arm applying rolling forces over the chassis. Therefore, the longer that roll couple is, the more rolling forces are applied on the car, and the more camber curve movement there is on a given wheel rate. 

Yes, the lower you go, the more you increase that roll couple -- but shortening it at whatever height is a still a big plus. As a result, you can dial less static camber compensation, run softer springs, eliminate front swaybar etc, and still end up with the same roll angles at a fixed Load.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

BR_337 said:


> opcorn:opcorn:
> 
> Max , will it fit mk2/3 ?


Unfortunately, No ....


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Unfortunately, No ....


:banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## CD155MX (Dec 18, 2007)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Yes, that means that USRT is not far from lauching something. However, there is a lot more to it than that. I don't want to spoil it, so I'll leave it as that.
> 
> As for the roll center correction in relation to ride height, the benefits will always be there. By design, the roll couple is pretty long with the stock geometry (even at factory height). The roll couple, being the distance between the center of gravity and the roll center, acts as a lever arm applying rolling forces over the chassis. Therefore, the longer that roll couple is, the more rolling forces are applied on the car, and the more camber curve movement there is on a given wheel rate.
> 
> Yes, the lower you go, the more you increase that roll couple -- but shortening it at whatever height is a still a big plus. As a result, you can dial less static camber compensation, run softer springs, eliminate front swaybar etc, and still end up with the same roll angles at a fixed Load.



Understood, you don't have to spill any beans. We'll all be anxiously awaiting new announcements and info from USRT. It's great to have companies like USRT that invest in testing products with users that put them through their paces. 

Thanks for the info regarding the roll couple and its effects. :thumbup:


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

Max, if you or anyone else here knows wehre I can find a small NACA duct for a fair price let me know.... Ebay and seibon have no results...


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

RodgertheRabit II said:


> Max, if you or anyone else here knows wehre I can find a small NACA duct for a fair price let me know.... Ebay and seibon have no results...


http://autoplicity.com/1926776-pro-...=GSNOFITMENT&gclid=CMuNzb-DncUCFUwA7AodcQUAhg


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

CD155MX said:


> Understood, you don't have to spill any beans. We'll all be anxiously awaiting new announcements and info from USRT. It's great to have companies like USRT that invest in testing products with users that put them through their paces.
> 
> Thanks for the info regarding the roll couple and its effects. :thumbup:


:beer::beer: I agree, USRT is part of the short list of companies serving our cars that believe in real R&D. I'm the suspension maniac, and this will likely be a joint venture of some sort. 

Since we're on the subject, I just finished designing "bumpsteer" correction to go along with the relocated roll center. After a fun full day of testing, I'm delighted to say that the bumpsteer (really more of a roll steer in this particular case), created from altering the geometric relationship between the control arm and the steering linkage arcs, is totally corrected . 



Before, with standard steering link rod ends (planes following completely different dynamic arcs, therefore creating steering with compression and zero inputs). 











After, with redesigned rod ends (the two planes are parallel, and the outer pivots are going through similar arcs throughout the range of motion)











'A' is how it's supposed to be, and what I achieved. 'B' is what I had after the RC relocation, and 'C' is roll steer in the opposite direction


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Keep it coming! I've got a track car to finish! :beer:


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> http://autoplicity.com/1926776-pro-...=GSNOFITMENT&gclid=CMuNzb-DncUCFUwA7AodcQUAhg


those are affective but much too large for the hood/box set up im going for ... I need http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/wm.php/images/pwjdm-naca-gt-r35-on-closeup.jpg


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

20v master said:


> Keep it coming! I've got a track car to finish! :beer:


Plus one lol


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> Keep it coming! I've got a track car to finish! :beer:





BR_337 said:


> Plus one lol


Finish??? You rookies... track cars are never finished - they can only be at certain point of their perpetual evolvement. IMO, they should be renamed 'necessary bottomless money pits' ... kinda like women. :laugh:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Finish??? You rookies... track cars are never finished - they can only be at certain point of their perpetual evolvement. IMO, they should be renamed 'necessary bottomless money pits' ... kinda like women. :laugh:


Okay then, I've got a track car to get off of jack stands! Does that work? :laugh:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> Okay then, I've got a track car to get off of jack stands! Does that work? :laugh:


Much better!


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## UCFQuattroguy (Jul 5, 2005)

20v master said:


> Okay then, I've got a track car to get off of jack stands! Does that work? :laugh:


Dang...and I thought I was bad with my "Yea...the new rear bar is in the car....if being in the trunk counts..." :banghead:
With kid #2 being born 1 month ago, the priorities have shifted a bit...


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Much better!


Lol .. 
Seriously. 
I'm gonna get everything that needs to be done with the before putting car back on track. 

In the mean time . gotta take care of some business

http://www.mmaweekly.com/titan-fc-inks-featherweight-prospect-freddy-assuncao


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Take care of business Freddy! :thumbup::beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

UCFQuattroguy said:


> Dang...and I thought I was bad with my "Yea...the new rear bar is in the car....if being in the trunk counts..." :banghead:
> With kid #2 being born 1 month ago, the priorities have shifted a bit...


 Congratulations Justin! Hopefully you can get back in the game quickly ...:beer:


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## UCFQuattroguy (Jul 5, 2005)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Congratulations Justin! Hopefully you can get back in the game quickly ...:beer:


Thanks, Max! Baby steps (punny...I know...). I *JUST* got back on the bike after almost 2 months (to keep my light/girlish-figure). Installing car stuffs should come soon enough. Hope to be able to run an autocross event at some point this summer.

In full disclosure...for the sake of being able to say I've tried it both ways...I went against the "Max Approved" method of suspension tuning and picked up an 034MS rear bar for the B5. The reality is that I'm just simply not running enough spring rate to reduce the amount of roll stiffness contributed by bars. The car would probably be pretty darn good on R-Comp tires as it sits...as the fronts would benefit from the heating in the early part of the run. 

I'll be sure to report back whenever it's in and I've driven on it.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

UCFQuattroguy said:


> Thanks, Max! Baby steps (punny...I know...). I *JUST* got back on the bike after almost 2 months (to keep my light/girlish-figure). Installing car stuffs should come soon enough. Hope to be able to run an autocross event at some point this summer.
> 
> In full disclosure...for the sake of being able to say I've tried it both ways...I went against the "Max Approved" method of suspension tuning and picked up an 034MS rear bar for the B5. The reality is that I'm just simply not running enough spring rate to reduce the amount of roll stiffness contributed by bars. The car would probably be pretty darn good on R-Comp tires as it sits...as the fronts would benefit from the heating in the early part of the run.
> 
> I'll be sure to report back whenever it's in and I've driven on it.


There is always more than one way to skin a cat ... some are just more effective than others.  Set up on a track car also have to reflect, and work with, the components in the car. Therefore, compromises will always be part of of the balancing act! :beer:


While we're talking setup, I just did the alignment on mine with some pretty significant changes from before. I went with:

Front:
Negative 5 deg of camber (from -3.8 previously)
Zero toe

Rear: 
Negative 1.6 deg of camber (-1.3 before)
1/16" of toe-in (1/8" before)


The bump in static front camber is because I'm sticking with R-compounds (at least for now), and they really like, and work better with that much camber on a McPherson steering axle. I'm dialing out some rear toe-in in anticipation of adding rear aero grip. The idea is to make the rear looser to get more rotation on the slow stuff, but rely on the added aero grip to keep the rear end in check at higher speed. 

I can already tell the difference, braking hard from 90 mph after the alignment, the unloaded tail is much more alive than before. Really demands some attention and some minor steering corrections to keep straight while threshold braking.


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Good stuff Max.
eager for the results. that's a lot of camber :thumbup:
Have you tracked the car on previous set up or just autoX? 

How do like the rss /swift srings so far? 

:beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

I have tracked and auto-x the car before with the previous setup. However, the 5 deg of camber is something I ran previously as well (years ago before I added dynamic camber gain via added caster), so it's not totally new to me. That's also how I know that the race tires work so well even with what would appear to be a lot of camber. What I'm really testing is the effect of having less rear toe-in than usual to go along with the rear aero project. Should be interesting!


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I have tracked and auto-x the car before with the previous setup. However, the 5 deg of camber is something I ran previously as well (years ago before I added dynamic camber gain via added caster), so it's not totally new to me. That's also how I know that the race tires work so well even with what would appear to be a lot of camber. What I'm really testing is the effect of having less rear toe-in than usual to go along with the rear aero project. Should be interesting!


I see :thumbup::thumbup:
In for results opcorn:

What about coils /swift springs on those rates ?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

BR_337 said:


> I see :thumbup::thumbup:
> In for results opcorn:
> 
> What about coils /swift springs on those rates ?


Nothing to really report in street driving since the shocks were revalved to accept the bump in spring rates. They are well mannered in the streets, the real test will come at the track. :thumbup:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Nothing to really report in street driving since the shocks were revalved to accept the bump in spring rates. They are well mannered in the streets, the real test will come at the track. :thumbup:


Yeah.. Figured. But didn't know for sure if you had snuck on a trackday for testing it. Lol

Got a date?


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## Converted2VW (Apr 8, 2009)

Trying new rear sway set up and wheel/tire combination in the Texas heat.
Felt like mid 80s temps take away a lot of power (compared to mid 70's in March
Here's a quick snap from a friend


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Converted2VW said:


> Trying new rear sway set up and wheel/tire combination in the Texas heat.
> Felt like mid 80s temps take away a lot of power (compared to mid 70's in March
> Here's a quick snap from a friend


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Fabbed a legal spoiler for SCCA Street Prepared, and Prepared classes. Airfoil wings are not legal in these classes, so in order to get downforce at low speed (like auto-x) spoilers attached to the rear deck is the weapon. AoA is unrestricted and anything up to 10" tall is legal (as long as it stays within the body lines looking from above). 

They are nobody's cup of tea in terms of look, but highly efficient even at low speed. If you're looking to be competitive in classes with spoiler allowances, they become an ugly necessity. I decided to go with lexan in mine, but some people fab them out of aluminum sheets or alumalite. I prefer lexan because it allows rearward visibility and the third brake light is still visible for street driving legality. 

Testing at 25-70 mph there is rear grip on tap - the more you push, the more planted the tail becomes. The downforce and load resulting from the spoiler alone is buckling the trunk lid at the mounts even with large fender washers supporting it. I'm adding reward support braces to aid the forward ones and prevent further damage to the trunk. There is so much more rear grip that a front spoiler has to go on right away to restore a more neutral balance. If anyone is looking for an easy DIY way to supplement rear Aero to their mechanical grip, and can get past the look, this is the ticket. 


Base mounted


















With forward supports


























A few examples of cars running that type of spoiler:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

:thumbup::thumbup:

I like the idea Max. 
Very functional and cost effective. 

Wonder. How would behave on in a hatch and on track ?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Freddy, it would perform the same as it's the same principle. Since you're mainly catching fresh air on top of a hatch roof, less surface area is needed. Make it adjustable and you can dial the AoA to tailor the specifics of the track you're running (generally would need way less AoA when road racing due to downforce/drag coefficient working against you on the front straights). 


Here is an example on a hatch -- you can see how less surface area is needed and the AoA is less aggressive than what a coupe needs:


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

I've been using a spoiler on the hatch for years. Just an inch of spoiler makes a significant impact on the rear of the car. It will keep the rear very planted and heavy. The feeling of drag is also extremely noticeable.

The key is mounting and allowing the spoiler to keep its shape under load. Be careful with how you mount it as it will lead to damage of the body.

If you can get some airflow under the spoiler, you can effectively turn it into a wing and get more downforce with less drag. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

For those who have been on the ring and felt the rear end start to float in the high speed corners up Kesselchen og Mutkurve know how important read downforce is while racing. The spoiler I added on my little hatchback made a huge improvement even if it's not a prominent piece:


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

*Camaro Splitter and Spoiler*

Here's a few pictures of the front splitter and rear spoiler that I ran on my Camaro in the mid-2000's. Simple ABS plastic, but worked very well. Rear spoiler was 9" tall from Deck of rear hatch. These Mods were worth about 2 seconds at Knox Mountain Hillclimb. Simple but surprisingly effective: 

Front Splitter 001 by Chickenman35, on Flickr

79660872.r08wfZoD by Chickenman35, on Flickr

79660868.ZS07L4tl by Chickenman35, on Flickr

131780_334844476613100_1339271152_o by Chickenman35, on Flickr

And a " Before " picture of my Buddies 620HP 1981 Trans-Am. Note: Front splitter is an Aluminium Honeycomb composite. Three 200 lb guys can stand on it and it won't deflect at all. 

Knowx 2009 003 by Chickenman35, on Flickr


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

And the After... 

11629896321 by Chickenman35, on Flickr


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Chickenman35 said:


> And the After...
> 
> 11629896321 by Chickenman35, on Flickr



Very ouch.... Hillclimb is on my to-do list. Might have to take a trip to Austria this summer.


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

thanks for the imput guys :beer::beer:
im gonna start shopping for a dedicated spoiler for sure


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

In the mean time . 
Here is few things ive been doing ,while im waiting for the coils to come back from Bilstein Ca. 

*Fresh wheel bearings and hubs *











*In place along with A new Set of bmw E30 race grade wheel studs and buts *:thumbup:



















*NEXT WAS IMPROVING AIR FLOW TO RADIATORS *


*First was hood . thanks Max for tips on the hood duck*



























*NOW time to move intercooler down to allow more air flow on the radiators *

BEFORE 










BUMBER cut off for space and weight savings 



















*New Home*











*Bumper Cut out (GRILL NOT YET ATTACHED ) *


























*Interior being Striped as well ... All Unnecessary sheet metal will be cut out *


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Awesome car development Freddy! Believe me, your lap times will be rewarded for all of your efforts. :thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Awesome car development Freddy! Believe me, your lap times will be rewarded for all of your efforts. :thumbup::thumbup:


I hope so Max . thanks for everything Buddy . 
All thanks to you always pointing me in the right direction.:beer::beer:


----------



## FilxNZ2 (Nov 9, 2009)

Really enjoying watching the development of some of the cars here, very motivating! 

I haven't done anything with the Vento as I'm still mulling over various options. This thing about going to Haldex or not is kind of a key question for me so thought I better dip my toe in the water before committing to anything major. 

So I acquired this Golf 2.8 V6 4Motion (apologies for the non 1.8T content), it's got a bunch of minor things wrong with it that need attention which I am in the process of fixing. I figure after that I'll use it for a couple of open days and see what it's like.


However sometimes life is a bit like waiting for a bus, nothing for ages and then two show up at once. So I also grabbed this 2002 Audi S3 when it came along. It has had a decent old punt up the jacksie and I'm not sure how good the rear haldex and all that will be but I figured it was worth a shot as it opens up a wide possibility of mix and match options. Time will tell if I get around to any of it though.


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## UCFQuattroguy (Jul 5, 2005)

I figured I would bring this back to life with a contribution. 034MS rear bar installed on the B5 A4 paired with the standard/non-sport front bar. Yes...tripoding does occur on the tighter spots, but I did not experience any washing out of the front after this weight transfer took place. When throttle would be applied, the clutch-plate rear LSD took car of any freewheeling immediately and the car would track wherever I pointed it. Aside from old tires, I'd say this is the best the car has ever been from a balance perspective. If I wanted to continue fine-tuning, the rear bar can go softer, and I have the 'sport/S4' front bar sitting in my garage.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Looking good Justin!


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)




----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

I am interested in knowing how some of you "dial in" tire pressures for track use. I will be in a FWD car so front needs max traction, while rear may need less traction to pivot?

Thanks


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

ticketed2much said:


> I am interested in knowing how some of you "dial in" tire pressures for track use. I will be in a FWD car so front needs max traction, while rear may need less traction to pivot?
> 
> Thanks


That's a hard question to answer because optimal tire pressure will be very setup-dependent (especially with tire characteristics varying widely from one brand to next, even when they are of similar/competing construction, and compound). 

With that said, after getting a neutral baseline where you're not rolling on the sidewalls or overheating outer or middle sections of the contact patch, adding pressure removes grip on the chosen axle -- while removing pressure adds grip, although usually at the expense of some transitional sharpness. So in your case, once you find a good pressure baseline with the car being neutral or understeery, you could add rear pressure to promote rotation as needed. 

A probe type pyrometer, some chalk, a skidpad, and a friend handling the clock or using some data acquisition will give you your optimal pressure and balance for the tested surface. Be aware that what is optimal on slick asphalt could be considerably different if testing on grippy concrete for example, so test for the type of surface and conditions that you normally run). :beer:


----------



## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

:thumbup: thanks thats what I was looking for.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Once again Max is 100% correct!!
Adding pressure to rear tires is the key to rotate fwd car. 
I didn't know that. But talking with multiple racers in Europe on club gti. That's the key. 

My freshly revalved PSS are finally arriving today :thumbup:
Still need to buy The Springs . but first , i gotta kick some dudes Ass on Sat night on UFCfightPass. 

Ill post pics of struts when i get back in town from my fight . 

Vegeta, hell yeah bro !! 
Make sure those instructors give good foundation on getting started. 
Most of them are freaking lazy lol


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Not an instructor, my buddy riding along. I drive in the instructor group though.


----------



## UCFQuattroguy (Jul 5, 2005)

A couple of pics from my last auto-x event. At least based on my initial observations, contrary to what works on a Mk1 TT...the B5 chassis needs a big rear bar unless you're running crazy high spring rates (due to the motion ratios). I'm currently running 750/1000. The wheels rates work out to 360/340 or something like that. It's 2.0Hz and 2.3Hz front/rear for stiffness.


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Justin, motion ratio is a killer in your platform. You would have to run some crazy high spring rates to get the roll control (around 3 Hz) needed on springs only. In your particular case, I totally agree, having the rear bar help cary some good load is necessary (it's at a cost but a healthy compromise). Car looks good! :thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## UCFQuattroguy (Jul 5, 2005)

Thank you, Sir!

This thing would be a hoot on some 'real rubber' (275+ width A6/7) and more power. Ambient temps that day were 95+...and my usual 'race setup' using the APR 100oct map with water injection only made the car less slow, instead of the usual mountain of torque. :banghead:


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Time to contribute to the thread sense i'm through my fight from last weekend (BTW i finished my opponent in 2nd round :wave

Anyways .. 
been shredding some more weight from the interior :thumbup:


























*this is a work in progress . not yet finished. will be tested at Road Atlanta next week. Will have lap times to compare from the 1:49 last time i was at RA . 
New Suspension will be tested as well :thumbup::thumbup: EXCITED !! *

here one 










































Winglets not final. just testing some looks :screwy:



AND CHRISTMAS is HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




























From shock dyno 











So, 2 rears are new ! was just revalved. fronts where rebuilt and revalved. #700lbs all around for now .. 
reason for new ones at rear was because my old ones were rusted inside . (not repairable )
long story short .... Bilstein hooked me up! they really did helped a bunch. recommend them to anyone :thumbup::thumbup::heart: 
awesome people :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


JUST WAITING ON THE SWIFT SPRINGS TO GET HERE FOR REASSEMBLE ...



























:beer::beer:


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Glad to hear about your win Freddy! Everything is looking good with the car, keep the development going, and before you know it you'll have a monster in your hands. :beer:


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Glad to hear about your win Freddy! Everything is looking good with the car, keep the development going, and before you know it you'll have a monster in your hands. :beer:


:thumbup: Thanks max .
I will brother ..and Really hope so !

:beer::beer:


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Since everyone is contributing to one of the last good thread in the 1.8t section, I spaced out my front fenders close to 2" to bring the front tires under the body. No more front tires poking out, some rear flares will finish it off later. 





























Here are some action shots from my last autocross


























And a short cabin video of what it's like strapped inside the coffin. Too much sun glare to properly see the course, but the video is great to illustrate pedal footwork and left foot braking. You get a good idea of throttle/brake modulation to keep the turbo spooled while braking, or inducing rear rotation.


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)




----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)




----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Badass Vegeta .
Glad your having fun


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

I've missed it. 7 years no track. ...fukn horrible


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Max, 
looks good !! keep it up buddy :thumbup::thumbup:

we def need to keep the only good thread in this forum:thumbdown:


----------



## Nmcaruso (Jul 26, 2012)

@ Marcus, how did you space the fenders? Im looking for a way to get a little more tire without cutting or custom fenders.

Improvements from last year, Wing swapped out to carbon APR, hood venting, new rear bushings.





Car last year


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

OIL Cooler mounted :thumbup::thumbup:































TIME TO PUT AN OLD STREET SIGN TO GOOD USE ?:laugh:










AND FINISHED PRODUCT 

















































WING WILL BE TESTED ON TRACK. i WILL do a session with it and without




SUN ROOF DELETE. needs rest of rivets and paint!!:thumbdown:


----------



## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

Had a pre Tech Inspection today, everything looks good, except the tech told me to put the sway link back on:banghead:

Also mentioned W/M may not last a full 25minute session, due to using the 3L windshield washer reservoir, and having two nozzles. Did a quick test tonight, the two nozzles(175,100) used 5oz in 20 seconds at 150psi. This is the lowest psi the screw in the pump will allow me to go. So at full pressure I will only last, well not real long. 

Just wanted to know how much W/M are some others using on track? Realistically I won't be using W/M !00% of the time, but since this will be my first experience, I have no idea how much I will need. 

I may need a bigger reservoir or to go back to one nozzle for track events. I mostly got the second nozzle so I could use the race file on pump gas, but I was not planning to use that file for track yet.

Thanks


----------



## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

ticketed2much said:


> Had a pre Tech Inspection today, everything looks good, except the tech told me to put the sway link back on:banghead:
> 
> Also mentioned W/M may not last a full 25minute session, due to using the 3L windshield washer reservoir, and having two nozzles. Did a quick test tonight, the two nozzles(175,100) used 5oz in 20 seconds at 150psi. This is the lowest psi the screw in the pump will allow me to go. So at full pressure I will only last, well not real long.
> 
> ...


I don't know if 3L will cut it honestly. I would go through about 3.5-4L in a 25min session. I put in a 5.5L euro washer reservoir and all is well.


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

ALL set and ready for Road Atlanta tomorrow :thumbup::thumbup:

Got the Swif Springs and assembled. 














































Getting alignment . 




















All ready for track tomorrow :thumbup::thumbup:
will post results of new suspension ..

With this new struts /springs , new alignment with more negative camber and all the weight reduction...
The car literally been TRANSFORMED !!!!  i love the way it drives now . even with super stiff springs on the street, feels soo glued to the ground :thumbup::thumbup:

The real test will be tomorrow!!:thumbup:opcorn:


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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

spartiati said:


> I don't know if 3L will cut it honestly. I would go through about 3.5-4L in a 25min session. I put in a 5.5L euro washer reservoir and all is well.




Thanks, I will have to pick up one of them.:thumbup:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

BR_337 said:


> The real test will be tomorrow!!:thumbup:opcorn:



Love the car and progress, good luck tomorrow! :beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

OK Guys,
Finally got some time to type about Road Atlanta Trackday...

*The Good news:*

Car was extremely fast , pretty lively in the rear.:thumbup:
The new suspension felt awesome :thumbup: i think i know how to make a mk2 move really well on track now

ready for *first session*



















*The bad:*
After little over 10min .. my day was ruined 



















Car was doing very well.!! 
this was all driver error:thumbdown: i let my ego get in the way of my driving . As i was still testing the car , i should never had passed that Very fast Nissan. My problem is that im fearless .. My fault! i have learned the hard way. and yes i have learned from this mistake.

time to build another :thumbup::thumbup:

Already striped the shell and i have a Red one lined up :thumbup:






























































































All going in the trailer to meets its new home :thumbup::thumbup:












Here is a quick snap of new/old shell.. (freebee)
ill make her look good again...














Addition to the shell will be :

All Around 

















http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76_206_219&products_id=1210









http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/Whee...&autoModel=Corrado&autoYear=1990&autoModClar=

R888 s 225/50/15









eurospec 11'' rear rotors vs 8.9'' oem








http://store.blackforestindustries.com/eu11mkreroup.html

Corrado 11'' front rotor vs oem 10''


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## Converted2VW (Apr 8, 2009)

Oh man I'm sorry it ended up this quick and this way!

Glad you are ok and that you are already moving forward though !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

THat sucks bigtime man. I suggest you go step by step next time. Find the slip limits of the car at different speeds before you go do some hotlaps. :thumbup:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Converted2VW said:


> Oh man I'm sorry it ended up this quick and this way!
> 
> Glad you are ok and that you are already moving forward though !
> 
> ...


it sucked:thumbdown:
but i learned to be a more patient. 

thanks man


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Gulfstream said:


> THat sucks bigtime man. I suggest you go step by step next time. Find the slip limits of the car at different speeds before you go do some hotlaps. :thumbup:


agreed bro:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Freddy, may I ask why you decided to go with the R888 and that size wheel/tire combo? Don't know if you're a die hard Toyo fan and set on that size, but there are much better tires in that segment. The Nitto NT01 is a better tire, similar compound/hardness, and a better price value.

http://www.discounttiredirect.com/d...m&tmn=NT-01&typ=Passenger/Performance&ev_mt=b

I'd think that wider tires (wider front footprint at least) would be more suitable at the stage that you are now. No?


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I've tested different trackday tires (not for auto X) and find R888 to be the best performance/value I could get. Not tested the Nitto as I need a tire with minimum protection against hydroplanning. New R888R is out these days as well.




http://www.toyo.co.uk/tire/pattern/proxes-r888r


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Freddy, may I ask why you decided to go with the R888 and that size wheel/tire combo? Don't know if you're a die hard Toyo fan and set on that size, but there are much better tires in that segment. The Nitto NT01 is a better tire, similar compound/hardness, and a better price value.
> 
> http://www.discounttiredirect.com/d...m&tmn=NT-01&typ=Passenger/Performance&ev_mt=b
> 
> I'd think that wider tires (wider front footprint at least) would be more suitable at the stage that you are now. No?


Max, 
to be honest i wasn't even thinking about other brands bro. thanks for the heads up.
like you told me after the accident . i really need wider tires .but at the moment , i can only go up to 225 for now due to $ ..
the plan is to take it easier ( believe it or not :laugh and go up to 245 front /225 rear on full slicks..


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Gulfstream said:


> I've tested different trackday tires (not for auto X) and find R888 to be the best performance/value I could get. Not tested the Nitto as I need a tire with minimum protection against hydroplanning. New R888R is out these days as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


sick :thumbup:


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

BR_337 said:


> it sucked:thumbdown:
> but i learned to be a more patient.


Great attitude - thanks for sharing though and looking forward to the rebuild :beer:


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

All_Euro said:


> Great attitude - thanks for sharing though and looking forward to the rebuild :beer:


:beer::beer:


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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

Just wanted to thank everyone for their input over the last several months. 

Finally got some track time at Dub Deliverance, Summit Point, and it was awesome. First two sessions were really overwhelming and I was having trouble with everything. After riding with an instructor something clicked and the next two sessions were a blast. Jetta performed flawlessly for a FWD car, but the driver needs more seat time

Anyway looking forward to more events!


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## 303gti (May 28, 2015)

How do you like the GTT turbo, has it been reliable, and did you ever get it dyno'd?


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

That's my stomping grounds. Grew up at summit point racing.


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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

Vegeta Gti said:


> That's my stomping grounds. Grew up at summit point racing.



It seems like a good VW track, lots of corners and less real long straits like Pocono, which is real close to me. I really liked it, ready to go back when finances allow.

Sorry to see about your car. You were lucky, you had a lot of time to slow down before impact. Good luck with the rebuild.


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

BR_337 said:


> it sucked:thumbdown:
> but i learned to be a more patient.
> 
> thanks man


Total bummer man, the car was looking really good :thumbup:

Don't give up!


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

suffocatemymind said:


> Total bummer man, the car was looking really good :thumbup:
> 
> Don't give up!


thanks man:beer::beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

damn... 
i wish i had the $

all 3 nls racecars for sale http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7233350-FS-3-GTI-racecars


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## WyGuy1.8T (Oct 29, 2013)

I will say I haven't gone as far as you guys have as far as the "track car" status goes lol (mainly because I'm a senior in highschool)... but here is my build so far. 

2003 VW Passat 1.8T GLS

Mods: Engine
Motoza 1+ Custom Tune (soon to be 750cc E85)
Stock k03
Peak 20 psi
ECS 2.0 FSI coils
FMIC
EvolutionRacewerks TIP
3" Cold Air Intake
Forge 007 DV
Black Forest Industries snub mount
3" downpipe
2.5" Exhaust with High Flow Cat with Magnaflow Resonator/Muffler
Bosch 440cc EV14 42LB Injectors
IE catch can
Stock MAF

Transmission:
Quaife LSD
Southbend stage 3 daily (currently diagnosing whether it has failed or not, already went through a stage 2 daily in 16k miles, only have 6k miles on this one :banghead: )

Suspension:
H&R Springs
Bilstein sport shocks
28mm Autotech Rear Anti-sway bar
A bunch of polyurethane Bushings
Steel Tie Rod ends
S4 upper control arms

Brakes Tires and wheels:
Alzor 17x7.5 (too heavy, planning on running o.z. Ultraleggeras in the spring)
225/45 Dunlop Direzza z2 (want to run RE-71Rs)
Audi A8 Big Brake Kit
Slotted Rotors
Hawk HPS 5.0 Pads

Weight Reducton: 
Spare tire & Trunk Carpeting removed
Rear Seats removed
Other non-necessities removed

Here are the results for Waterfest 21 autocross. I took 1st in D class, and 7th for FTD (+/-2 seconds behind FTD) http://autox4u.com/results/2015/Waterfest 2015.htm



And just a couple photos


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## Converted2VW (Apr 8, 2009)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

WyGuy1.8T said:


> I will say I haven't gone as far as you guys have as far as the "track car" status goes lol (mainly because I'm a senior in highschool)... but here is my build so far.


Great Job buddy. At such a young age..

You did good on adding more reliable power and bigger brakes.:thumbup::thumbup:

Yes ,lighter wheels and wider tires should be next on the list AFTER stiffer springs.
looking into it. you have a lot of body roll based on the picture. So,youll need to get the car a little stiffer to behave better in the corners.

if your Bilstein shocks where bought new. they have a lifetime warranty . so even if you blow the shocks with the stiffer springs (and you would have to go way stiffer to actually blow'em ) they will still rebuild them for ya.

GL :beer:


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## WyGuy1.8T (Oct 29, 2013)

BR_337 said:


> Great Job buddy. At such a young age..
> 
> You did good on adding more reliable power and bigger brakes.:thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> ...


yes, the shocks were bought new about 5 years ago. The car was an ongoing project of my father's and mine for a while. 

I was thinking too that I needed to go stiffer, but I have kind of came to the conclusion that I don't want to. The car has a really nice and controllable lift off oversteer right now that is great for the long sweepers. If you look in the photo, the rear right is in the air, while the front inside tire is planted fairly well. That is great because I do have an LSD, and when exiting the corners I'm putting down my power. If I go any stiffer (I already swapped form eibachs to h&rs a while back), I feel like it wont have that little rotation that it does now, and that it will have the tendency to understeer rather.


----------



## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

WyGuy1.8T said:


> yes, the shocks were bought new about 5 years ago. The car was an ongoing project of my father's and mine for a while.
> 
> I was thinking too that I needed to go stiffer, but I have kind of came to the conclusion that I don't want to. The car has a really nice and controllable lift off oversteer right now that is great for the long sweepers. If you look in the photo, the rear right is in the air, while the front inside tire is planted fairly well. That is great because I do have an LSD, and when exiting the corners I'm putting down my power. If I go any stiffer (I already swapped form eibachs to h&rs a while back), I feel like it wont have that little rotation that it does now, and that it will have the tendency to understeer rather.


It feels like its rotating better because only 1/2 of your traction surface in the rear is being used. This also transfers a lot of the load to BOTH front tires. While you have an LSD that can apply power to both front wheels while turning, you're still overloading the outer front tire. Is your rear sway adjustable or can you disconnect it easily to try it out without it affecting wheel rate in the rear?


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Got my new coil overs but fuel line has multiple leaks. Going to get it sorted for next round of red line time attack


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

*Hey guys , i have decided to go different route with the trackcar . therefore , im selling this bada$$ Swap.
I'll be posting more pics of it. But you can see you previous pictures and have a good idea of all parts ..
evething in great working order as you can tell by the video from 4 weeks AGO *


----------



## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Like? ?


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

I'm selling the entire swap.

Awp 1.8t 
Holset hx27w turb (gt2860r equivalent)
Custom log manifold
Turbo Smart BOV and MBC , Tial 38mm WG 
630 cc injections 
034 fuel rail
Aeromtotive fpr
Mishimoto fans 

Fully built tranny:
02m 6 speed
Wavetrac LSD
USP motorsports steel shift forks
FX400 with lightweight FW
Diesel geek billet short shifter

6peed shifter box and cables with knob /boot
Corrado G60:
Brake booster bracket
Pedal cluster with 1.8t gas pedal
Clutch master cylinder

Eurovan 25.4mm aluminum Master cylinder

Mk2/mk3:
Bilstein PSS coilovers( less than 100miles on it)
Custom valved by Bilstein USA for 675lbs
Brand new Swift Racing Springs (less than 100miles on it)
675lbs spring rates all around.
These are prob the best set up you could ever put on a mk2 or mk3. They performed great in the only short 10min session i had them on the car before wrecking. 
I'm very proud of these to be honest. Great combo.!

Kirk racing 4 point roll bar.


MMP wilwood 4 piston caliper kit 
Fits mk2 16v or mk3 2.0 
bp10 pads steet driving
Hawk DTC-30 HPDE or Auto X 
New (less than 100miles ) Zimmerman 10.1" rotos 
Mk3 knuckles with new hubs/bearings 


3- ATS 15x7. 4x100 wheels. 
The 4th is broken . not sure if it can be repaired.
2 - 50% life Toyo R888s 
3- 75% life RA1s

Real Race Grade (purchasted from Harrison Motorsports)
E30 wheels studs and nuts 
Fits mk2/mk3


Pm if interested. 
I'm gonna post link of for sale post .
More specs on my Build thread . 
Thanks Freddy


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Vegeta Gti said:


> Like? ?


Getting a Boxster S bro. 
Gonna build for track .


----------



## BlkMk2Jetta (Aug 25, 2008)

BR_337 said:


>


Where did you get this hood scoop? Would you recommend it on a daily driver? :laugh:


----------



## BlkMk2Jetta (Aug 25, 2008)

Best recommend MKIV Jetta rear sway bar? I was looking at the Shine racing one.

Best recommended light weight battery for a MKIV daily driver? This sucker needs to get me to work and back everyday so. No fancy radio, but it will have to power my factory Monsoon system and all other accessories.


----------



## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

BR_337 said:


> Getting a Boxster S bro.
> Gonna build for track .


Ambitious :thumbup:

would you or Veg hint me to wehr e you bought the hood vent? i want it like yesterday for the audi!


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

RodgertheRabit II said:


> Ambitious :thumbup:
> 
> would you or Veg hint me to wehr e you bought the hood vent? i want it like yesterday for the audi!


I'm not sure what vent Veg runs, but the one on Freddy car is the same one I run on my TT. It's from a Ford Mustang GT500 and can be purchased at any Ford dealership for around $100 - $150.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I'm not sure what vent Veg runs, but the one on Freddy car is the same one I run on my TT. It's from a Ford Mustang GT500 and can be purchased at any Ford dealership for around $100 - $150.


Yes!! :thumbup:

Max, car is looking awesome bro.
Need to touch base with you about new project.


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

Oh man, I was thinking about max's car and saw Veg's user name!!! sorry dude:facepalm: haha.

Im gonna pick one up. my turbo just had an issue so itll wait.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Lol


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

I put the beat down on a few Miata's this weekend, chased and caught an E46 M3, and an Arial Atom. Couldn't quite catch a spec E30, and got run down pretty hard by a 350awhp WRX, but other than the normal wearing the brakes and tires, it was a great day.


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## Converted2VW (Apr 8, 2009)

That looks like a nice day to be at the track 20v!


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

20v master said:


> I put the beat down on a few Miata's this weekend, chased and caught an E46 M3, and an Arial Atom. Couldn't quite catch a spec E30, and got run down pretty hard by a 350awhp WRX, but other than the normal wearing the brakes and tires, it was a great day.




Where's the video? ic:


And do you have a build thread?


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Gulfstream said:


> Where's the video? ic:
> 
> 
> And do you have a build thread?


I only took a little video early in the day, and the track was mostly empty and I was learning the current setup. That said, this is just my daily driver, 225 TT K04 with a few bolts on's. I got better as the day went on and was chasing down Mustangs, E46 M3, etc, but didn't film any of it. Build thread for my other TT is here, but progress has been slow lately as I've been travelling a lot for work.

Not much to look at, but since you asked: https://youtu.be/G05a3CCZxOs

Hopefully one day my track car will be on your track car's level. :beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

20v master said:


> I only took a little video early in the day, and the track was mostly empty and I was learning the current setup. That said, this is just my daily driver, 225 TT K04 with a few bolts on's. I got better as the day went on and was chasing down Mustangs, E46 M3, etc, but didn't film any of it. Build thread for my other TT is here, but progress has been slow lately as I've been travelling a lot for work.
> 
> Not much to look at, but since you asked: https://youtu.be/G05a3CCZxOs
> 
> Hopefully one day my track car will be on your track car's level. :beer:


Who did you go to TGPR with ?
i love that little track. Horrible on tires but fun :thumbup:
next time you go let me know


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Hey guys , 
wanna show yall new project and some of improvements ive made in the last few weeks :thumbup:

996TT 
EPL Billet turbors ( pretty much a hybrid with billet wheel for vws )
EPL TUNE
72lbs inj
FVD straight pipes (loud as $hit lol)
Bilstein PSS10 











































next to my brothers 996tt


































little improvements so far :


TRACK studs 










just finished seat and steering wheel today 










vs


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

Very nice 

Interested to see your future works and development on this

Must be night and day different to the VW


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

I'll be around here  
Yeah man .. So ,so ...different . The feel of all that weight in the back ,feels like your driving a fast tank :laugh:
It hauls a$$ with the upgraded turbos and 
This thing is so well balanced .it just glues to the ground ,it's insane . 
I love it ! Can't wait to track it :thumbup:


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## Converted2VW (Apr 8, 2009)

That thing looks amazing BR_337! Enjoy!


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

not what I was expecting... but FUKC YES! that thing looks stupid clean.:vampire:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Glue to the ground and to your ass first into a wall lol. Regardless I still love them


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Time to start weight loss on that thing


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Converted2VW said:


> That thing looks amazing BR_337! Enjoy!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks bud :beer::beer:



RodgertheRabit II said:


> not what I was expecting... but FUKC YES! that thing looks stupid clean.:vampire:


Appreciate that brother :thumbup: it is even cleaner in person man. Love this thing 
I get a so so much attention on it . Feels like I'm driving a Ferrari .its only a 30k car  .
The turbo in white, it is pretty rare though . Got lucky with this one as they go for 40+



Vegeta Gti said:


> Time to start weight loss on that thing


Haha .. Yeah a little bit


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Mmhhmm


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## Converted2VW (Apr 8, 2009)

Last track day took a toll on the "consumables" 









Camber wear on front tire, maybe I was trying too hard.

Rear pads replaced, front ones being replaced tomorrow 


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Luis, can't really tell in the pic, is that the inner portion of the tire that corded? If so, typically there is not enough negative front camber in this chassis to kill tire from excessive camber. So wear like this on an inner front tire is from toe out. 

If it's the outer portion of the tire, then it's normal. Just means that you could use more static negative camber and/or more positive caster at your roll rate and geometry.


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## Converted2VW (Apr 8, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Luis, can't really tell in the pic, is that the inner portion of the tire that corded? If so, typically there is not enough negative front camber in this chassis to kill tire from excessive camber. So wear like this on an inner front tire is from toe out.
> 
> If it's the outer portion of the tire, then it's normal. Just means that you could use more static negative camber and/or more positive caster at your roll rate and geometry.


Marcus, yes that's the inner portion corded.

Camber comments was more joke than anything. This was me trying too hard at 2 hairpins during my last track day.

I will however follow up on your comment with an alignment. It has been a while.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Converted2VW said:


> Marcus, yes that's the inner portion corded.
> 
> Camber comments was more joke than anything. This was me trying too hard at 2 hairpins during my last track day.
> 
> ...


Yeah, definitely some unwanted toe-out if it's the inner portion of the thread. Get on it, because toe out will kill your new tires in a hurry.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

BR_337 said:


> Getting a Boxster S bro.
> Gonna build for track .


996TT is a big upgrade over a Boxster S. Too good of a deal to pass up?? :beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Chickenman35 said:


> 996TT is a big upgrade over a Boxster S. Too good of a deal to pass up?? :beer:


Yeah bro, 30k couldn't pass it. As they go for 37-40 k . Plus the Boxster has no re sell value compared to the TT you know ?
Love the car ! Went to Road Atlanta last weekend .It was raining and boy,The car felt more stable in the rain then the mK2 in the dry with sticky tires


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)




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## elRey (May 15, 2001)




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## Converted2VW (Apr 8, 2009)

Cool videos


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

*I'm back!!!*

So, here is next Track project. 
b6 Quattro 5 spd 

*plans:
my old mk2 power pack. turbo,wg , bov etc..
a8 or rs4 brakes
Fully stripped to the bone:thumbup:
265 wide tires
Aero pack splitter, wing , diffuser*


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## Converted2VW (Apr 8, 2009)

Love B6s! Yeah Porsche race cars ain't cheap!


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## Three3Se7en (Jul 2, 2007)

Dang you've went through some cars!


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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

BR_337 said:


> *IM BACK :wave: *
> 
> Sold The Porsche. Enjoyed it ,but cant push a car like that to its limit . Way too much $$$:facepalm:
> 
> ...


How light do you think you can get it and what are you HP goals? Curious to see how you like this compared to the MK2.


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

Good to see you back over here! 

Shame about getting rid of the Porsche but it's not the same with such a dear car, I'd be scared to start cutting and modding things to the level that would be happy doing on another car.

Look forward to you updates on the new one


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Three3Se7en said:


> Dang you've went through some cars!






ticketed2much said:


> How light do you think you can get it and what are you HP goals? Curious to see how you like this compared to the MK2.


I'm curious as well .. So far I like it . I've driven a little and it rotates really nice on tight turns with just Bilsteins ylws and H&R springs . 
I hope I can get it down to 2700 lbs ..
Everything is going out !!
Full interior , power windows ,pw locks , sunroof ,headliner, carpet , AC Compressor, condensor , lines , wires ...
bumpers , exhaust will be lighter (one resonator ) . On interior a lot of unnecessary sheet metal, brackets , wires , will be removed . In the engine bay ,All emissions related stuff ,cruise control ,wires ,brackets , hoses ,check valves will be removed as well .. A lot of work to do :banghead:



StaceyS3 said:


> Good to see you back over here!
> 
> Shame about getting rid of the Porsche but it's not the same with such a dear car, I'd be scared to start cutting and modding things to the level that would be happy doing on another car.
> 
> Look forward to you updates on the new one


Thanks man :beer:
That think was sweet .But in reality, I couldn't aford to ever brake anything on that car cause everything is so damn expensive . :thumbdown:


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## UCFQuattroguy (Jul 5, 2005)

Took the 'sled' for some cone dodging yesterday at what some are considering the best (or one of the best sites) in the southeast. 

Was still knocking some of the rust off of myself on the last run. I was constantly battling getting behind on a few of the offset elements on both sides of the course (the B5's slow steering ratio doesn't help, either).

Just for reference, there were nationally competitive FRS/BRZs on slightly wider very fresh RE-71Rs (I'm on VERY old/tired Dunlop Z2s from 2013) that were running 7 seconds quicker than me! Fresh rubber would probably only account for 2-3 seconds of that. The rest is power/weight ratio and the level of 'awesome' behind the steering wheel. Those guys are serious rock stars. One of which was a good friend of mine. The top 3 in that class were separated by 0.1sec...on a 1 mile autocross course!!! The astounding part is on that type and length of course, time lost adds up VERY quickly.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

UCFQuattroguy said:


> Took the 'sled' for some cone dodging yesterday at what some are considering the best (or one of the best sites) in the southeast.
> 
> Was still knocking some of the rust off of myself on the last run. I was constantly battling getting behind on a few of the offset elements on both sides of the course (the B5's slow steering ratio doesn't help, either).
> 
> Just for reference, there were nationally competitive FRS/BRZs on slightly wider very fresh RE-71Rs (I'm on VERY old/tired Dunlop Z2s from 2013) that were running 7 seconds quicker than me! Fresh rubber would probably only account for 2-3 seconds of that. The rest is power/weight ratio and the level of 'awesome' behind the steering wheel. Those guys are serious rock stars. One of which was a good friend of mine. The top 3 in that class were separated by 0.1sec...on a 1 mile autocross course!!! The astounding part is on that type and length of course, time lost adds up VERY quickly.


Good driving . That's a cool coarse . 👍🏻
Can't wait to get b6 ready for Road Atlanta


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## Converted2VW (Apr 8, 2009)

That's a long ass course! Good driving!


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## UCFQuattroguy (Jul 5, 2005)

Thanks Guys!


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

With a very mild winter this year, I got a chance to play with the car. I attacked the bulk of the Aero package by making the rear diffuser and front splitter. Functional side skirts and wheel spats are next! Also did some headlight deletes 15 lbs weight saving). 


Some ajustable support rods are in transit to brake the overhang, but the mounts are structurally sound and chassis mounted









Diffuser

































Headlight deletes:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Max :thumbupimp bro.
Awesome work. I'll be applying some of your ideas to the Quattro build


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

BR_337 said:


> Max :thumbupimp bro.
> Awesome work. I'll be applying some of your ideas to the Quattro build


Hell yeah, Quattro is where it's at!


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## Converted2VW (Apr 8, 2009)

Rocked the wet track this weekend in the Quattro TT (not anywhere close to Max's though!)

Only got passed by a k24 swapped Miata 










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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Wet track days rule!


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Fun fun ...Can't wait to finish mine


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Here is a decent session from fastivus 2016 in all of my sandbagging, being a ****ing bastard guy, unholiness.
This is about 18 PSI on pump gas and the meth never goes to full, which, I think I should have adjusted to help because oh how ****ing hot outside it was, and as you can tell I'm not fully accelerating or braking. You can tell when I go, real, Full Throttle vs what I'm normally doing and you can also tell that I'm not accelerating nearly as long as I should be or braking nearly as late as I could be, and with purpose. It's a little sketchy around beginners out there, I like my car to slide a little bit LOL I prefer more rear brake biasing.

Yada yada. The black vet, silver flame throwing R32, and silver S6(Apr stg3 car) were fast.



https://youtu.be/ZMlhBUM_NV4


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Hey guys , it's been a couples of months I haven't been in here . Busy with fighting , opening my own gym etc.. 
I'm finally back to working on the car and shouldn't be much longer . Got her fired up with new MALONE base tune , quality parts been added to the car little by little . 

Parts list sense I last updated 

Ohlins Stasis motorsports coils Fully adjustable with external reservoirs 
Porsche 18z brakes 
He221w turbo upgrade (bigger billet compressor wheel ) 
Jegs catch can 
TSW rotary forged wheels 
New lines 
CX racing intercooler 
New pipping 
Sunroof delete 
Hood duck 

To do :
Roll cage 
Build splitter , diffuser , side skirts 
Brake ducks 
Headlight duck
Hood pin
Bumper support 
Tow hooks 
More weight reduction


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## URIN 2ND (Oct 29, 2001)

This thread is awesome. 

I'm actually picking up my first 1.8T powered VW tomorrow. It's a '92 GTI with one of the 150hp variants, 02A, all stock. PSS-9 coilovers. Rave green paint. That's about all I know about it.

Plans are mild. 205/50/15 BFG g-Force Rival-S rubber on the BBS RA's, swaybars, braces, and some weight reduction (maybe 2250 or so...I need to keep a heater for now, and the budget is too tight to go full tilt).

Power-wise, I'll probably just run a tune and exhaust. Maybe 200 to 225 crank all said and done. I don't want a wheel-spinning monster, and I won't be able to afford a differential for a while.

Hoping to make some local HPDE's in the spring (PNW, western WA). :wave:


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## Converted2VW (Apr 8, 2009)

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## Converted2VW (Apr 8, 2009)

Had an amazing weekend at the track! 










Lowered my PB, Chased down miatas, boxsters, and during a wet session killed many other high hp cars struggling to put power down...then this sucker decided to crack towards the end of Saturday on track










Talk about getting coolant blowup on the windshield at speed!

Luckily my local shop (1.5hrs away) had a 1.8T car to salvage the part from and my brother was awesome in bringing it out to the track. Had the car running by 7pm and ready for Sunday!

Track never gets old!



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## GasInMyVeins (Jul 11, 2010)

There are a couple places that sell cast aluminum versions of that coolant piece. After blowing mine open just driving down the damn street, it's a nice peace of mind upgrade.


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## Converted2VW (Apr 8, 2009)

GasInMyVeins said:


> There are a couple places that sell cast aluminum versions of that coolant piece. After blowing mine open just driving down the damn street, it's a nice peace of mind upgrade.


Thanks! 
Looking into it actually! Also considering getting the cast version of the thermostat housing and the coolant flange.

I need to replace all coolant hoses too...these have held up fine for 15 years


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Had the exact thing happen to my at the track 👎🏻The video is a few pages back. Sucks ! 
Glad to got her fixed . Keep it up !!👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

I've blown 2 plastic Coolant head flanges and 1 plastic thermostat housing and it looks like the plastic impeller on the W/P has finally failed. Stoopid German cars and their plastic coolant parts. Waiting for rad end tanks to start leaking. :banghead:

Meanwhile, my 40 year old Datsun 280Z still has all of the original aluminum coolant and thermostat flanges and they'll probably last another 40 years. They polish up nice as well. :thumbup:

Original 40 year old Datsun W/pump was still good, but we decided to swap in a new one. NOS Datsun part. Next DD car is going to be Japanese or a Cheby.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Gotta admit though... I do love the Quattro AWD. When it rains out here ( which it does a lot ) I'm usually a contender for FTD at the local Autocrosses.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Why are you even still running any of that stuff?


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Lots of aluminum parts available for transverse engines. Not so much for longitudinal AEB's. I do have an aluminium coolant flange on it now from URO. The last time I replaced the coolant flange ( April 2013 with a Mehle plastic part. Orly lasted 20k km ) the aluminium ones weren't made for AEB's. No aluminium thermostat housings that I have found. 

I think the W/Pump just went, and I'm assuming it has a plastic impeller. Going to have a closer look at it this week.... hopefully. Been driving the Z all summer, and quite frankly it's a hoot. Audi's been put on the back burner since end of April.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Yeah same here man. Theres many options for the transverse engines but not Longitudinal .. 
I'm talking to issam about this it. I need to upgrade all these junk plastic to alu.


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## GasInMyVeins (Jul 11, 2010)

Converted2VW said:


> Thanks!
> Looking into it actually! Also considering getting the cast version of the thermostat housing and the coolant flange.
> 
> I need to replace all coolant hoses too...these have held up fine for 15 years


Yeah, I swapped all of them at once. Those three, plus the little Y-pipe by the coolant ball.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

If I can get a new plastic, want me to weld a couple longitudinal ones up?


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Vegeta Gti said:


> If I can get a new plastic, want me to weld a couple longitudinal ones up?


Yes 🙏


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

: beer:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Got a plastic a4 coolant flange to use for mock up.

I gotta finish these, make a few mufflers, then I can begin playing with making an aluminum version.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)




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## Converted2VW (Apr 8, 2009)

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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

👍🏻👍🏻


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

BR_337 said:


>


Hey guys , it's been a while I've posted here . Car is almost ready. I'm gonna post some picture and explain progress. "Keir (Malone Tuning) and I have been working on the tune . Man ,What can I say about these guys . They are legit! Badass tunes . Nothing but great experience I've had with them . If you want a tuner that provides a great products and has by far the best support/customer service out of all these companies out there. . Go check them out .
Malone tuning is where is at !!! 

While I'm finishing the build. I had a chance to do "Skip Barber " 3 day racing school. What a blast ! Learned a bunch . Great program! I'll be applying for my scca novice racing license.










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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

BR_337 said:


> Hey guys , it's been a while I've posted here . Car is almost ready. I'm gonna post some picture and explain progress. "Keir (Malone Tuning) and I have been working on the tune . Man ,What can I say about these guys . They are legit! Badass tunes . Nothing but great experience I've had with them . If you want a tuner that provides a great products and has by far the best support/customer service out of all these companies out there. . Go check them out .
> Malone tuning is where is at !!!
> 
> While I'm finishing the build. I had a chance to do "Skip Barber " 3 day racing school. What a blast ! Learned a bunch . Great program! I'll be applying for my scca novice racing license.
> ...


So much fun https://vimeo.com/188935542


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

BR_337 said:


> So much fun https://vimeo.com/188935542
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


https://vimeo.com/188935621

Passing exercise on the back straight at Road Atlanta 



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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)




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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

I really need to get to the rear suspension changes on my pile of shiat death rocket. Almost finished with my new awic reservoir.stoked, coupled with the buffet awic, it'll be nice to see efficiency gains. TOO many track days this year with temps over 105 outside lol


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## [email protected] (Mar 28, 2016)

BR_337 said:


> Hey guys , it's been a while I've posted here . Car is almost ready. I'm gonna post some picture and explain progress. "Keir (Malone Tuning) and I have been working on the tune . Man ,What can I say about these guys . They are legit! Badass tunes . Nothing but great experience I've had with them . If you want a tuner that provides a great products and has by far the best support/customer service out of all these companies out there. . Go check them out .
> Malone tuning is where is at !!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks! 

Glad we could help and looking forward to seeing that beast on a track!


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Glad we could help and looking forward to seeing that beast on a track!





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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

BR_337 said:


>


Nice work. Where did you get the hood scoop?


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Thanks. She's almost ready to go . I'll post pictures of her on the ground later today. 

It's from a gt500 . They cost about 100 bucks 


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

Hi Everyone,
Shameless plug but we have the baffled 06A 1.8T oil pans back in stock.


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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

BR_337 said:


> Thanks. She's almost ready to go . I'll post pictures of her on the ground later today.
> 
> It's from a gt500 . They cost about 100 bucks
> 
> ...


Thanks, going to see if I can fit one on the Jetta. Was seeing slightly elevated temps this summer in 90+ degree weather.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

It'll sure help! 
I'm sure you can fit it . Anyone run these things on all sorts of cars 


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

So, not its self, be careful who you buy turbos from. Long story short. This guy sold me a chra from the U.K.. turn out it's a China crap . Turbo won't hold 10lbs . 

Already have a genuine on the way from a cummins distributor in Cali. Will be here Wed. 

It's an upgrade from my old hx27w .

This one is a holset He221w . 
Almost identical specs as an GTX2860r 
Can't wait!!



















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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

BR_337 said:


> So, not its self, be careful who you buy turbos from. Long story short. This guy sold me a chra from the U.K.. turn out it's a China crap . Turbo won't hold 10lbs .
> 
> Already have a genuine on the way from a cummins distributor in Cali. Will be here Wed.
> 
> ...


While I'm waiting for new turbo. Getting splitter, side and rear defuser done . I'll post pictures after paint tomorrow. This took me all day lol










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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Pretty impressive map for the He221w... love how the widest point is at a pressure ratio of 3.0 - next phase?... http://www.eurotrashmotorsports.com/?product=holset-compound-kits


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Really? I don't know how to read Maps so thanks for the feedback lol 
I loved my hx27w. Now with the 221w I'm super excited to see 
How it performs. The one I got is the new models that comes with the billet compressor wheel. 


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## 92volkswagengti (Apr 28, 2010)

BR_337 said:


> Really? I don't know how to read Maps so thanks for the feedback lol
> I loved my hx27w. Now with the 221w I'm super excited to see
> How it performs. The one I got is the new models that comes with the billet compressor wheel.
> 
> ...


So no more mk2 race cars?


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

92volkswagengti said:


> So no more mk2 race cars?


No! Hit a wall at road Atlanta.
I'm building an A4 Quattro. 


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## 92volkswagengti (Apr 28, 2010)

BR_337 said:


> No! Hit a wall at road Atlanta.
> I'm building an A4 Quattro.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ya I saw that maybe I missed something but I thought you had a red one and were going to transfer everything over?


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

92volkswagengti said:


> Ya I saw that maybe I missed something but I thought you had a red one and were going to transfer everything over?


Yes I was .. but decided to try something different you know. .. we'll see how she does. I do loved and miss my mk2 . Blowing blow 911s and z06's on track lol 


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## 92volkswagengti (Apr 28, 2010)

BR_337 said:


> Yes I was .. but decided to try something different you know. .. we'll see how she does. I do loved and miss my mk2 . Blowing blow 911s and z06's on track lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ya I love mine. Not quite as hardcore as your car but it performs very well on track. My biggest problem is I'm under powered I'm only running a 16v with about 150hp but it corners amazing


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

92volkswagengti said:


> Ya I love mine. Not quite as hardcore as your car but it performs very well on track. My biggest problem is I'm under powered I'm only running a 16v with about 150hp but it corners amazing


Yeah ,there are a lot of fun. However, you need a little more power to really have a blast lol . 

Mine cornered well for an 25 year old Fwd car . I ran custom Bilstein coils 700lbs spring rates all around. 
The reason I went with a different car because I wanted something more competitive. 


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## 92volkswagengti (Apr 28, 2010)

BR_337 said:


> Yeah ,there are a lot of fun. However, you need a little more power to really have a blast lol .
> 
> Mine cornered well for an 25 year old Fwd car . I ran custom Bilstein coils 700lbs spring rates all around.
> The reason I went with a different car because I wanted something more competitive.
> ...


Ya I get that. Biggest difference for my car was building the weld in cage really tied the whole car together nicely


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

92volkswagengti said:


> Ya I get that. Biggest difference for my car was building the weld in cage really tied the whole car together nicely


That looks awesome! Im sure makes the car super ridget . i only had a 4 point roll bar on the mk2. the Quattro is getting full welded cage :thumbup:


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## 92volkswagengti (Apr 28, 2010)

BR_337 said:


> That looks awesome! Im sure makes the car super ridget . i only had a 4 point roll bar on the mk2. the Quattro is getting full welded cage :thumbup:
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nice! You'll have to post up pics when it's done. I love seeing other people's cages


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

92volkswagengti said:


> Nice! You'll have to post up pics when it's done. I love seeing other people's cages


For sure! 👍🏻🍻🍻


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Please ask questions though. I do this **** for a living, and safety is paramount and on that mk2....I see several no-no's. 

...probably this main reason I still haven't caged ghost. Been making cardboard and scrap monster mock ups and documenting them then putting them into a program and crashing the car.

Tube placement, bends, bend placement, number off bends....there is so much to take into account. Also random cages typically have no impact, longevity, safety and vehicle rigidity research tied into them.

Then could in the materials, will it pass fia, scca nasa, etc rules and restriction as well as minimum requirements?

Using DOM? Chromoly? What sizes and sidewall tubing? Tig or mig? Did you weld the seat base into the cage? Did the wider over head or under penetrate?

I've learned a lot building legit racing cages for high end year round race cars. Not only from school, relative, classes, seminars and studies but from guys posting the envelope and breaking the bad and constantly wrong info out there.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Defuser almost done! Almost time to start testing her. 

Vegeta, Thanks for the info. I have a pretty experienced race shop building my cage So I'm not worried. 



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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Christmas came early  

Can't wait! 











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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Wet day at Barber Motorsports Park yesterday...


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

20v master said:


> Wet day at Barber Motorsports Park yesterday...


Itrack? I was gonna go instruct but had a family weeding to attend.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Off to cage build. 











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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

BR_337 said:


> Itrack? I was gonna go instruct but had a family weeding to attend.


Yes, Itrack's Santa Run. How many family members did you weed out? :laugh:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Fun!!


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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

20v master said:


> Wet day at Barber Motorsports Park yesterday...


Car looks great. You BT or K04?


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

20v master said:


> Yes, Itrack's Santa Run. How many family members did you weed out? :laugh:


Ops! Lol *wedding


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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

BR_337 said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


BR_337 and others, what plastic is suitable for undercarriage aero mods? And where do you get it? Not doing anything major, but want to smooth out the undercarriage airflow.

Thanks


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

ticketed2much said:


> BR_337 and others, what plastic is suitable for undercarriage aero mods? And where do you get it? Not doing anything major, but want to smooth out the undercarriage airflow.
> 
> Thanks


I used aluminum in mine. The diffuser in the pic you posted has aluminum center section and alumalite sides. Both materials light enough and suitable for the job.


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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I used aluminum in mine. The diffuser in the pic you posted has aluminum center section and alumalite sides. Both materials light enough and suitable for the job.


Thanks for the reply. Was originally thinking plastic since thats what most car companies use, I'll have to look into aluminum/alumalite.


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

ticketed2much said:


> Thanks for the reply. Was originally thinking plastic since thats what most car companies use, I'll have to look into aluminum/alumalite.


If you want any of the aero benefits you will avoid plastic. Unless you are using a very thick piece of plastic, the plastic will deform and lose all benefit. Sheet metal and alumalite are much better options.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)




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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

ticketed2much said:


> BR_337 and others, what plastic is suitable for undercarriage aero mods? And where do you get it? Not doing anything major, but want to smooth out the undercarriage airflow.
> 
> Thanks


Yes Alumacore is best material for splitter other than Carbon fiber and 1/8" aluminum panel for diffuser :beer::beer:

I'm gonna modify mine a little. Just waiting on cage to be done . I'll post better pics :thumbup:


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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

BR_337 said:


> Yes Alumacore is best material for splitter other than Carbon fiber and 1/8" aluminum panel for diffuser :beer::beer:
> 
> I'm gonna modify mine a little. Just waiting on cage to be done . I'll post better pics :thumbup:


Picked up a piece of alumalite from the local sign shop, stuff is real nice to work with and seems very stiff. Thanks


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

ticketed2much said:


> Picked up a piece of alumalite from the local sign shop, stuff is real nice to work with and seems very stiff. Thanks


Nice! :beer:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Getting great ideas from all of you, keep it up!! Now I just need to work less so I can play more with the gli


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Not sure how I missed this for so long...

VW Golf mk2 1986 (was a GTi 16V)
1.8T AGU
Brute Rods, other than that it's stock.
S3 intake manifold to have the throttle to the driver side.
Injectors Siemens Deka 630cc
Turbo Garrett T3T4 50 trim Stage 3
Intercooler Mishimoto Race line.
388hp 475nm before I installed the intercooler(it was a drastic change) so I believe it's way way better now.
Megasquirt MS2 installed and tuned by me.
I installed some cheapo JOM NJT (height and damp adjustable) and the car felt really good compared with the old Bilstein B4 and Vogtland springs.
21mm from the floor to the chassis right after the wheel, and 22mm rear right before the wheel.
The front arms are already pointing a bit up.
Nankang NS-2R 195/50R15 with 1.8bar cold.
2.15º camber in the front, stock rear.

For next trackday:
Power steering is already installed and it feels like a great improvement!! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
Quaife LSD to be installed for next trackday.
EBC Yellow Stuff pads installed aready
Rear strut bar to be installed as well
Rear beam bushes (stock) to be installed and utherane inserts as well.
Golf mk3 rear discs and calipers to change the somewhat messed up mk2 stuff.
Will test to disconnect both end links of the front sway bar during the next trackday. Only have the stock 16V one in the rear.



















































































Couple laps in the Estoril Race track last October and some other clips.






Let me know if you think there is something I should or should not use, install, etc


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Looking good brother!!👍🏻👍🏻
Keep up the fun ! 
What's future plans for the car ? 
You should look into at least a rollbar will help stiffen the old chassis. Welded cage is best but if it's mainly a street car, 4 point roll bar will do. 
Did you try disconnecting the front sway?


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Yeah, 4 point should be good, but not sure where I can get that around here. I'll have to have a look at it!
Not disconnected the front sway yet. Will test this on my next Trackday, 8th of April, if all goes well 

Future is as I mentioned before. LSD, and some parts, and seat time, that I think it's missing


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## 4ceFed4 (Apr 3, 2002)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I used aluminum in mine. The diffuser in the pic you posted has aluminum center section and alumalite sides. Both materials light enough and suitable for the job.


Max that looks awesome! Did you abandon the Prepared class for something else, or are you just planning on pulling the rear diffuser for events?


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

:beer:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb0cdzBWfEA

Chasing down a 3.8L swapped Cayman S. Two sessions later my OEM K04 blew. :thumbdown:


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Sorry to hear about the turbo. You were pushing the **** out of it though. How much boost do you run at the track?


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

spartiati said:


> Sorry to hear about the turbo. You were pushing the **** out of it though. How much boost do you run at the track?


Well my EBC is set to max. :laugh: It was spiking 24/25 and tapering from there, basically holding all it would give on the stock WG with one helper spring and not adjusting preload.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

I usually keep my F23 around 16psi for track use. With my FWD, it gets a little twitchy accelerating out of the corners if I run more than that. 

Well, at least now you have an excuse to upgrade... :laugh::laugh:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

spartiati said:


> I usually keep my F23 around 16psi for track use. With my FWD, it gets a little twitchy accelerating out of the corners if I run more than that.
> 
> Well, at least now you have an excuse to upgrade... :laugh::laugh:


I just placed an order for an F23.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

20v master said:


> I just placed an order for an F23.


You won't be disappointed! It's a nice upgrade over a stock K04-02x.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

youre a talker on track hun lol Sorry to hear about the turbo. But nothing like an upgraded snail :thumbup::thumbup:
little tally its a fun little track. what was your lap times?


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

BR_337 said:


> youre a talker on track hun lol Sorry to hear about the turbo. But nothing like an upgraded snail :thumbup::thumbup:
> little tally its a fun little track. what was your lap times?


Wifey is mad she was talking in this clip about her ass cheeks burning from trying to stay in the seat. :laugh: Just broke under 1:11 on my last session.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Spent the weekend on big willow at willow springs.

It was cold and wet but incredibly fun. Saw rain and lots if wind and a high temp of 52*. Def makes for interesting track conditions.

I decided to do something different this weekend and I'm glad.

Normally on the street I run 22-27 PSI and ruin people's day. I decided that I was going to run less than 17 PSI and instead of using pump gas like normal I was going to turn down my meth and run a mix of 91 and VP ms109. Thankfully due to the cool temperatures I saw awesome IAT's, and had great fun with the power once the gas was mixed correctly and the car adapted.

There is nothing like pulling away from New 5.0 Mustangs and new ZO6 Corvettes on the straightaways. Which leads me to my other changes.

I've been playing with rear alignment shims on my beam in order to get a good amount of camber and fix my toe issues that are natural and such an older car that constantly sees abuse and has high power output. The difference it has made is quite nice as I am able to manipulate the rear end with throttle as I originally intended and maintain and put more heat into the rear tires providing a lot better rear grip. As most of you guys know I'm not running a front sway or strut bar but I have a lower adjustable tie bar. Yet in the rear I have the BSI rear sway bar and an old VW Motorsport 32 millimeters solid rear sway bar along with a triangulated rear strut Tower bar that is 30 millimeters that I made. So I have a lot of off throttle oversteer that I thoroughly enjoy.

One thing I have been battling is that my front right spindle and Co eccentric bolt do not like to stay tight. I don't have the wheel bearing issues other guys have but this has been plaguing me for over a year. I continually lose right front negative camber throughout the day and have to pull the wheel reset it tighten it with Loctite and then wait a session or two before it decides to give up and I go into positive camber again. It's incredibly frustrating and I believe I have found a way to fix that. Needless to say it wasn't as bad this weekend as one it's incredibly hot for some reason.

I noticed that one of my filler neck overfill lines is leaking and it caused a couple of exciting spins and left hand turns and I also finally fell victim to the dreaded right hand turn fuel starvation that the MK1 can have. Which I'm going to fix when I get back to California by building a fuel cell.

I enjoyed the wet cool weather even though it was a bit frustrating with getting heat into the tires and my best run of the day was a 1:44.00, which I am super stoked to get as it was my first time on the Big Willow course and only running 15 to 17 PSI the car was stupid fast on the gas and I am no longer going to run pump gas at the track.

I am now seriously going to attack building my own control arms and finishing the 4motion situation in the car. Which I think I will begin with mounting that whole system up and getting it all going suspension geometry wise as a fully independent suspension car in the rear before actually doing all the crazy stuff to make it all wheel drive. I plan on using my roll cage setup to be the actual mounting for the rear suspension. Eliminating that rear beam is going to be a huge Improvement for the car in terms of control and handling.

I did have one bad thing happened this weekend and that is that I split my exhaust manifold into two pieces which was quite funny. I started getting sudden compressor surge and was looking around and spotted the crack creeping up and was like holy **** I didn't one more session and it was all the way around between 2 + 3. When I get back and take it off I will definitely post pictures.

This is voice to text because I am lazy but I wanted to add that I love seeing everyone who really is contributing in this thread because you guys inspire me and give me a different point of view for everything that I do hopefully when I start really posting some pictures and videos of stuff that I do not only at work but all my own crap I can do the same for you guys. Keep it up you guys are awesome.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Hounding these guys for point by, they were in a "faster class" for the time trials.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

> One thing I have been battling is that my front right spindle and Co eccentric bolt do not like to stay tight.


Wonder if the bolt is getting stretchy? If they've already been replaced with new ones, can you Tack weld the eccentric washer to the CO flange?


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Vegeta, I'm glad you're getting out there and tracking. There's no replacement for seat time . By far the best upgrade we get . I know the struggle tracking the old fwd cars .. it's a ton of fun until you wanna go a little faster and can't put the power down off mid to corner exits. 
I'm really interested in the synchro , independent set up . Keep it up brother! We motivated each other here :thumbup::beer:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Chickenman35 said:


> Wonder if the bolt is getting stretchy? If they've already been replaced with new ones, can you Tack weld the eccentric washer to the CO flange?


See I thought about that but I don't want to weld anything if I don't have to.

I have a new set of coeccentric bolts, I'm going to replace the passenger side and see if it helps.


Yeah..4motion was the plan 8/9 years ago but it isn't a weekend tasking lol so I feel you man.I really need to get it done. Wife said to me the other day "why isn't it caged and awd again??"

I was like Wttfffffffff


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Vegeta Gti said:


> See I thought about that but I don't want to weld anything if I don't have to.
> 
> I have a new set of coeccentric bolts, I'm going to replace the passenger side and see if it helps.
> 
> ...


Hahahaha there you go . Do it !


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

If she says do it, you do it lol 

Happy wife, happy life


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Diffuser mock up , weight reduction lol and made some carnards today. Plus a much need car wash 












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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Yesssssss


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Whoah!! That is going to a real race car  :thumbup: :beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Vegeta Gti said:


> Yesssssss


🍻🍻



HidRo said:


> Whoah!! That is going to a real race car  :thumbup: :beer:


Little bit of street driven hehe


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

I drive to and from the track lol.

I usually go really slow, act like it's giving me problems, etc. **** with all the other guys lol.

It's nice living 20 minutes from willow springs.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Vegeta Gti said:


> I drive to and from the track lol.
> 
> I usually go really slow, act like it's giving me problems, etc. **** with all the other guys lol.
> 
> It's nice living 20 minutes from willow springs.


Lol 

Dang , that's cool . Shoot, I might come we should meet at Superlap battle 😎🍺 
I'm 30 minutes from Atlanta motorsports Park , 1 hour from Road Atlanta 🙌🏻


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Yesssssss


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

That's the good thing of tracks nearby!
I also live like 25km from the Estoril Racetrack here in Portugal.
I also drive to and from the track! It's great


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Hell yeah man


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

My next trackday will be 8th of April.
Hope to see some improvements.
LSD, Yellow stuff braking, rear axle inserts and new bushings.
Hope to get a better time on it


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

HidRo said:


> My next trackday will be 8th of April.
> Hope to see some improvements.
> LSD, Yellow stuff braking, rear axle inserts and new bushings.
> Hope to get a better time on it


Nice ! You should have a nice improvement. I remember when I installed the LSD on the mk2 its was an awesome feel. Not necessary instant faster lap times but much easier to put the power down. 👍🏻 

Good luck and report back! 🍻


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Just for the fact that I can put the power down in a better way, I should improve the lap times a bit.
There are a couple of corners at the Estoril Racetrack that will actually make me spin like I'm on ice 
The gearbox is already out, and the differential is with me to get it ready.
Should be able to drive it next week, if all goes well


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Where are you guys getting your 02m steel forks from?


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## craigalangibson (Dec 27, 2003)

OEM is pretty cheap.

02M311549Q

http://www.jimellisvwparts.com/prod...-shaft-with-selecfork/5148320/02M311549Q.html

02M311559P

http://www.jimellisvwparts.com/products/Selector-shaft-with-selecfork/5136195/02M311559P.html


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

I'll be trying out these controls arms . It's from a off road jeep company só should be pretty heavy duty. We'll see who it goes 

http://www.lmperformance.com/660115...ibcEYO5sVszg9G-v6DhQP13IA7kjAIjtTUaArfr8P8HAQ

While getting the car corner balance , alignment and the powerflex race bushings installed.
I will also find out how much she weighs


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)




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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

Is that a SmartStrings kit, or another brand, or something you DIYed?

With regards to the arms, hopefully they are high misalignment, I've heard from arm manufacturers that some did not have enough misalignment available and would cause the arm/bearing to snap. Ensuring you have full travel would be ideal.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

rex_racer said:


> Is that a SmartStrings kit, or another brand, or something you DIYed?
> 
> With regards to the arms, hopefully they are high misalignment, I've heard from arm manufacturers that some did not have enough misalignment available and would cause the arm/bearing to snap. Ensuring you have full travel would be ideal.


No That's an Porsche race shop. 

Yeah I'm little skeptical about it . I'll find out from the guys at the shop today. The plan was to go the 034 Motorsports Route. But we'll see. I appreciate the info


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Hi guys, 

I'm on a short deadline (this Saturday the 8th) to the trackday, and the car is not behaving as it should even after the LSD installation.

When I pull "hardish" (maybe 290hp with 0.8bar setup) on a straight line, even if I hold the steering wheel straight, the car seems to be hovering around. The front seems to be chasing something. I thought that this would be corrected with the LSD making it pull straight all the time but it seems to go side to side, even with the steering wheel straight. I have no whishbone slack, new top mounts, new suspension, no issues with the engine/gearbox mounts, rear bean is in good shape and no slack as well.
Car was aligned (-2.15º camber, stock caster and toe). I have no idea of what it can be....
Do any of you suffer from this or have you suffered in the past and corrected it?
Thanks a lot!


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

HidRo said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm on a short deadline (this Saturday the 8th) to the trackday, and the car is not behaving as it should even after the LSD installation.
> 
> ...


What LSD did you install?

Make sure the road is completely flat with no grooves. Mine wants to zig zag as well when there's grooves in the road from heavy traffic.


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> What LSD did you install?
> 
> Make sure the road is completely flat with no grooves. Mine wants to zig zag as well when there's grooves in the road from heavy traffic.


I installed a Quaife one.

The road I tested has no grooves, it has actually new tarmac over it. It does the same on highways, etc. It's kind of scary now, not sure if it's due to the LSD (it will go directly where you point it to and way faster than before).


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

HidRo said:


> I installed a Quaife one.
> 
> The road I tested has no grooves, it has actually new tarmac over it. It does the same on highways, etc. It's kind of scary now, not sure if it's due to the LSD (it will go directly where you point it to and way faster than before).


Well, if the road is perfectly flat then you should look into alignment and perhaps LSD operation. I might have heard some LSD's can act up a bit like that.... I'm sure some racers can chime in.


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> Well, if the road is perfectly flat then you should look into alignment and perhaps LSD operation. I might have heard some LSD's can act up a bit like that.... I'm sure some racers can chime in.


The thing is I've had this before installing the LSD. Also, shouldn't the LSD correct the strange behavior the open diff does? (something like what I'm experiencing?)
The car was aligned 3 days ago. I hope it's good though... I'll need to test with higher tyre pressure, just to make sure it's not it.
BTW, tyre pressure is set to 1.8bar (26psi) cold. Maybe that is too low? 195/50R15


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

A bad inner CV can influence torque steer greatly. As in it almost snatches the steering wheel out of your hand on one throttle/pedal application, then let off, and repeat, and no odd behavior. Check your axles.


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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

HidRo said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm on a short deadline (this Saturday the 8th) to the trackday, and the car is not behaving as it should even after the LSD installation.
> 
> ...


My Jetta with peloquin diff did the same thing as you describe, I was really surprised also. 20V Master may be onto something as I had mismatched axles, not really worn out though.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

That's odd my MK2 even with custom welded axles didn't do that. has the car ever been hit?


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

The axles do have a little bit of play so that might be something. I know the car was hit before it was mine. But I did not feel this since the beginning. So the axles could be worn out now due to the power that hits them.
About mismatch axles. How to spot that?

Sent from my Redmi Pro using Tapatalk


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Have you check the transmission input backlash? Very common for those to develop a lot of play which would also cause similar symptoms. Backlash should be less than a 1/4" (zero ideally), if you have backlash you need to shim the inlut bearing.


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Here is a short video of the CV play, although, from the sound of it seems more of a differential play (which I believe is normal?)


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Also, do Power Steering and non-Power Steering alignments differ from one and other?
I have a 1986 mk2 (non PA) but with a PA installed recently. Could this make any difference?


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

HidRo said:


> Here is a short video of the CV play, although, from the sound of it seems more of a differential play (which I believe is normal?)


That's pretty normal to me bro. 
Check everything related , axle , steering rack , bearings, tires ,alignment etc


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

BR_337 said:


> That's pretty normal to me bro.
> Check everything related , axle , steering rack , bearings, tires ,alignment etc


I have checked everything I can think of.
Rear has no play (poly bush in stock kind of worn bushings).
Front, all the bushings are good.
Steering rack does not have any play (UJ has a tiny bit but this was also happening before the change to Power Steering).
Wheel bearings have no play. Tires are newish (1 trackday on them only, and I had the issue before as well). 
Alignment done last week, and the issue was present before.

Ufff...

Today I'll check, set the dumping in the shock to the max to the rear (tested it full max in the front) to try to understand what creates this issue.
Will check tire pressure. currently in 26psi in Nankang's NS2R. Will set it to 35psi to test.


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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

HidRo said:


> So the axles could be worn out now due to the power that hits them.
> About mismatch axles. How to spot that?
> 
> Sent from my Redmi Pro using Tapatalk


I had one OEM and one bulletproof raxle, mismatched. From what I understand since the axles are different lengths from left to right they flex different which causes torque steer, which seems to be what you are getting. Different quality axles may aggravate the situation. The torque spike you are getting at boost onset is probably pretty big.

Matching heavy duty axles like 337 had may help. Have you tracked the car much? Reason I ask is that even though I noticed it on the street, I really didn't notice it on the track.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

ticketed2much said:


> I had one OEM and one bulletproof raxle, mismatched. From what I understand since the axles are different lengths from left to right they flex different which causes torque steer, which seems to be what you are getting. Different quality axles may aggravate the situation. The torque spike you are getting at boost onset is probably pretty big.
> 
> Matching heavy duty axles like 337 had may help. Have you tracked the car much? Reason I ask is that even though I noticed it on the street, I really didn't notice it on the track.


Same here ! Bad torque steer on the road but expected . On track didn't notice that much . I ran 300whp or so for year including track and no wear on the axles . I think that not the case unless there's something really wrong with them bro


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

I do 2 maybe 3 trackdays a year. Not more than that. Some drag races, maybe 2 or 3 a year as well.
I don't believe the axles are shot, but will check tomorrow.
Also, I feel this in the track, maybe not that much? but might be a mind trick.

I went out to test some more stuff:
- damping set to the hardest in front, softest rear - Same issue.
- damping set to the hardest in the rear, softest front - same issue (although seems a bit better).
- damping set to the max all around, same issue.
checked tire pressure, was to 31psi although I asked to set to 26... raised to 36. same issue.

Tested a 3rd gear spool, still at 0.8bar (12psi) and when boost kicks in, it will rotate the steering wheel to the right. When cruising soft, it goes to the left.
When I'm hammering it in a straight line, I need to correct it constantly.
I'll need to test (did not have time to do so) the tires at 26psi.
Any input is VERY appreciated!


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

This is the alignment report.


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Have you check the transmission input backlash? Very common for those to develop a lot of play which would also cause similar symptoms. Backlash should be less than a 1/4" (zero ideally), if you have backlash you need to shim the inlut bearing.


Can you elaborate on this? I have never heard of this before and would like to learn more.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

I believe your issue is your caster. Increasing your caster will increase your straight line stability. Decreasing it will make the car far more twitchy.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

spartiati said:


> I believe your issue is your caster. Increasing your caster will increase your straight line stability. Decreasing it will make the car far more twitchy.


Didn't catch that! Yes that's totally correct. ! Even too much toe upfront will affect straight line . 

I'll post the video But when I wrecked the mk2 at Road Atl. You can see in the video. First few laps .I was having a hard time keeping the car straight after I got a new alignment with too much toe up front.


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

spartiati said:


> I believe your issue is your caster. Increasing your caster will increase your straight line stability. Decreasing it will make the car far more twitchy.


But caster on a bone stock mk2 is not adjustable, is it? Only a tiny bit (few millimeters) pushing the cross member forward, right?


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Toe in can add straight line stability at the expense of turn in sharpness.

Toe out will make the car feel much more nimble and sharper with less steering input. 

I'm not familiar with the MKII suspension but I would assume you wouldn't be able to adjust it that much to recitfy your issue. Are there strut mounts that can add some adjustability?


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Yes, there are some racing strut mounts to do camber and caster changes.
something like this:
https://silverproject.eu/en/shop/vw-2/regulatory-katalw-camber-plates-golf-mk2-mk3-15mm-camber-15/

Although the toe seems OK in the alignment sheet, it does "feel to me" it's toe out.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Those can work. 

You can try to shift the subframe to get as much as you can out of it as is if you wanted to try. Keep the Toe to 0deg for now. 

After you correct the Caster you can see if playing with the Toe angle is necessary. I doubt it will be.


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

spartiati said:


> Those can work.
> 
> You can try to shift the subframe to get as much as you can out of it as is if you wanted to try. Keep the Toe to 0deg for now.
> 
> After you correct the Caster you can see if playing with the Toe angle is necessary. I doubt it will be.


I'll try the subframe move tomorrow if all goes well.
Now, after reading this, it seems that I might have an issue with the wheels OFFSET making.
Scrub radius, and offset importance
http://clubgti.com/showthread.php?228182-Scrub-radius-and-offset-importance

(this has pictures and all, which facilitates the sync in process).

I do have an extra set of 15" wheels that are ET37. Would this be a safe bet to test?

BTW, I did install the wheels close to the time I put the engine in.


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Easy explanation of suspension dynamics here 

http://www.rapid-racer.com/suspension-tuning.php


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

I went to school for all of this, apply
it fairly regularly, I need to read this from that beginning, the issue.


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

HidRo said:


> Yes, there are some racing strut mounts to do camber and caster changes.
> something like this:
> https://silverproject.eu/en/shop/vw-2/regulatory-katalw-camber-plates-golf-mk2-mk3-15mm-camber-15/
> 
> Although the toe seems OK in the alignment sheet, it does "feel to me" it's toe out.


If you're going to get camber plates, at least get the real deal from Ground Control, http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=727/CA=88, and not a copy like the one you linked above. GC supports the racing community and makes standup products. It also looks like the clone you linked places all the load onto the main bearing. Typical GC plates utilize a dual bearing mount design so that the load is not placed directly on to the locating bearing, but onto the mount instead.

The issue you are experiencing is more than likely due to your caster settings. Why are they so far off from factory specs? You have less than 1/2 a degree of caster, when the spec calls for 1-2 degrees. The car must feel like a shopping cart. It would be best to sort out the issue on the car currently before throwing parts at it to try to compensate. If you want even more stabilty, which I would recommend given all the adjustments possible on the car you could get the GC plates, twist them and use all the camber adjustment as caster adjustment and then add camber through the eccentric bolts on the strut. You end up with a far more stable ride, a lot more dynamic camber and a good amount of static camber to start with. Your toe values should be fine.


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

rex_racer said:


> If you're going to get camber plates, at least get the real deal from Ground Control, http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=727/CA=88, and not a copy like the one you linked above. GC supports the racing community and makes standup products. It also looks like the clone you linked places all the load onto the main bearing. Typical GC plates utilize a dual bearing mount design so that the load is not placed directly on to the locating bearing, but onto the mount instead.
> 
> The issue you are experiencing is more than likely due to your caster settings. Why are they so far off from factory specs? You have less than 1/2 a degree of caster, when the spec calls for 1-2 degrees. The car must feel like a shopping cart. It would be best to sort out the issue on the car currently before throwing parts at it to try to compensate. If you want even more stabilty, which I would recommend given all the adjustments possible on the car you could get the GC plates, twist them and use all the camber adjustment as caster adjustment and then add camber through the eccentric bolts on the strut. You end up with a far more stable ride, a lot more dynamic camber and a good amount of static camber to start with. Your toe values should be fine.


Thanks for that rex_racer!

Update from yesterday.
We raised the front 2cm, up to the control arms started pointing down just a tiny bit.
Didn't seem to make much of a difference.
We checked everything once more, and everything is in check. No play in bushes, nothing.

Went for a drive (although might be a little miss aligned as we raised it) it has the same problem...
Did a test, fully pushing it in 2nd and 3rd without the hands in the wheel, and it snaps so quickly to one of the sides (does to both sides) it's not even funny. Going ahead, hard 2nd gear and I would hit front first on a 3rd lane car...

Checking old alignment sheets, I saw the following:
With shock and spring kit (Bilstein B4 + Vogtland 40mm) it was aligned to 0 toe and -1 camber. Caster was 1.41º (which is within specs)
Then changed to Coilovers. JOM JNT (height and damp) and mk3 VR6 top mounts.
It was aligned to 0 toe and -2.25 camber. Caster was 0.34º.
This last alignment was set to the same.

Question: Camber has such impact in Caster in a stock mk2, or the coils+top mounts changed the caster?


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

You can see at around 0.45m that whenever I push a bit more on the pedal, the steering wheel turns like it has life of its own.
If I push some more, it will be a lot worse.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

HidRo said:


> You can see at around 0.45m that whenever I push a bit more on the pedal, the steering wheel turns like it has life of its own.
> If I push some more, it will be a lot worse.


Well, I can immediately see whats wrong with your car. You're driving upside-down! 


:wave:


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Ahahha, well i thought that Youtube would be a bit quicker on the edit. It's good now


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/what-the-heck-is-torque-steer-abcs-of-car-tech/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Bq0FFsXpuI


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Although Torque Steer might be present of course, in this situation I'm not pushing hard. Maybe max 200hp?
The car was not like this before. And with the stock engine (139hp) it showed NOTHING like this what so ever.
I find it hard to believe that everyone with let's say 250hp golf mk2 will suffer from this.
Still, being torque steer, there is really nothing you can do to correct it, right?


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

HidRo said:


> Thanks for that rex_racer!
> 
> Update from yesterday.
> We raised the front 2cm, up to the control arms started pointing down just a tiny bit.
> ...


Raising it isn't going to do anything, if anything it will make the car more responsive as the car gets back to what would be considered more "proper" geometry. You haven't done anything to adjust the caster, the relationship between upper mount and the lower mount. 

Coilovers won't make a difference in caster alignment, unless the eccentric bolts were adjusted such that the car would have minimal caster. It looks like the upper mounts are the same for the MK2 and MK3. The VR6 mounts shouldn't have done anything. Was the subframe ever shifted between the time of spring/shock and coilover? The eccentrics should only be adjusting camber independently of caster. The coilovers could have only adjusted caster if they were improperly made which is unlikely.

For general driving, I personally feel that caster is far more important than camber. Caster provides steering stability and weight, when you have very little caster the wheel will want to turn very easily, similar to what you are seeing now, or what you see with a shopping cart. When you have high caster, the steering will self center. Equal caster left to right also allows the steering to feel more neutral as you turn side to side. Have you changed the front control arms? Do you have the right arms on the car?


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

rex_racer said:


> Raising it isn't going to do anything, if anything it will make the car more responsive as the car gets back to what would be considered more "proper" geometry. You haven't done anything to adjust the caster, the relationship between upper mount and the lower mount.
> 
> Coilovers won't make a difference in caster alignment, unless the eccentric bolts were adjusted such that the car would have minimal caster. It looks like the upper mounts are the same for the MK2 and MK3. The VR6 mounts shouldn't have done anything. Was the subframe ever shifted between the time of spring/shock and coilover? The eccentrics should only be adjusting camber independently of caster. The coilovers could have only adjusted caster if they were improperly made which is unlikely.
> 
> For general driving, I personally feel that caster is far more important than camber. Caster provides steering stability and weight, when you have very little caster the wheel will want to turn very easily, similar to what you are seeing now, or what you see with a shopping cart. When you have high caster, the steering will self center. Equal caster left to right also allows the steering to feel more neutral as you turn side to side. Have you changed the front control arms? Do you have the right arms on the car?


No change to the subframe between spring/shock combo. Was only messed with between alignments with coils (to install powersteering). 
Front control arms were changed years ago, not recently. We had the rear bushings in a couple years as well.
They should be the right ones for the car as they were bought to a mk2 Golf, but I cannot say much about it.

I will align it today, and pull the subframe forward to see if something changes. I hope it does...


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Update!

So, got the car aligned again today (several times).
First we checked to leave toe out without changing anything else.
This changed nothing.

Then, got it to -1º camber, it set it to 1º caster (this is due to the geometry) and left it at -0.05º toe out.

The car runs fine now! When I hit it harder I can feel that there is a little bit of torque steer, but not the massive issue I got in the beginning!
Also, we discovered that the coilovers have a play in the shaft, which I believe it's not supposed to be there. i'll need to contact the guys about that.

Tomorrow is the big day, photos and videos should be up in the following days!
Thanks everyone!!


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

Glad to hear fixing the caster sorted things out. I would still try to get more, something still doesn't seem right. Is the subframe aligned properly?


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## GasInMyVeins (Jul 11, 2010)

Glad you sorted it! Custom LCAs to add some more caster would probably be a solid investment.



I don't get to contribute often to this thread, but I took my GTI to an autocross this weekend. She ran great, and the driver is still the biggest limiting factor. :laugh: I had to keep the car running for my whole heat (1.5 hours-ish) because of battery issues, so my coolant temps were rarely under 200 (though easily cooled when the fans came on). It was only in the high 60s outside though, so I'm a bit worried about Florida summer. My plan is to add a GT500 vent, and I'd like to figure out how to add a manual fan switch without killing the OE fan switch. Intake temps were also up to 130* by the end, so I need to get a heat shield or airbox in there (OE won't fit anymore because of other mods).


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

It is, but we will check better afterwards.
Trackday went on without much issues (coolant temp going a bit over what it should), powersteering fluid boiling due to being close to the downpipe, and spilling to the brake... Car did not brake much...
Other than that, I managed to get 8s off my last time, so did a 2.10m in the Estoril race track. Not bad at all 

Oh, and a massive exhaust leak (turbo to manifold bolts coming undone) that made me lift the pedal on every session, whenever the issue started again.


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Installed a Quaife diff:

























Power steering:









EBC Yellow Stuff:

















Did another trackday, and improved my times in 8seconds!
2:10:39
Best lap of each session, but unfortunately, did not record the fastest... 





Still need to improve the driving skills.
Had a braking issue (powersteering fluid going over the brakes), very high coolant temps (120+C) due to the smallest Golf mk2 radiator. considering buying the biggest (430mm vs 625mm length), and exhaust leaks (turbo to manifold bolts undoing.)

Other than that, it was a blast 

Edit:
Entire video clips of the sessions to whoever is bored enough to see it :laugh:


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

8 seconds is a huge improvement. Money well spent for sure. A set of dedicated track pads though would make a huge difference. I used yellowstuff on the track before and they held up ok, but nothing like a true track pad.


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

spartiati said:


> 8 seconds is a huge improvement. Money well spent for sure. A set of dedicated track pads though would make a huge difference. I used yellowstuff on the track before and they held up ok, but nothing like a true track pad.


What is a true trackpad that you used? DS2500? DS3000? Anything else?
Remind you that I have the 280mm setup, and there are a couple track pads that are not available for me (like BlueStuff and OrangeStuff)

It was for sure a great improvement! Now I feel that the car does not do a massive burnout exiting corners eheheh. It was great fun!!


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

HidRo said:


> What is a true trackpad that you used? DS2500? DS3000? Anything else?
> Remind you that I have the 280mm setup, and there are a couple track pads that are not available for me (like BlueStuff and OrangeStuff)
> 
> It was for sure a great improvement! Now I feel that the car does not do a massive burnout exiting corners eheheh. It was great fun!!


I've tried Hawk DTC pads a long while back on factory R32 brakes and they were an insane upgrade over the yellowstuff. They shrieked like banshees on the street on the way to the track though. :laugh:


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Will check the availability of those for the vag 280mm system.
Thanks!


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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

So I am interested in some opinions on brake upgrades. I have a haldex MK4 Jetta. So far TT front and rear brakes with Hawk hp+ pads have been great. No brake fade, good stopping power. As I get faster I may want to upgrade. 

Just curious what other people have done? Are TT brakes going to hold up long term? The Jetta sportwagen I have is much more rear brake biased than my MK4, and stops great on stock pads. I was thinking maybe Madmax rear brake upgrade should be next? Or should I focus on something like wilwood 4 piston front brakes?


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

I enjoy the R5 and r5 from ... can't remember. 

I've run the ht-10 hawks. Serious pad. 

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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

Vegeta Gti said:


> I enjoy the R5 and r5 from ... can't remember.
> 
> I've run the ht-10 hawks. Serious pad.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Looks like R5 are from Touaregs? Seems like conflicting info online about them. Are they single or multi piston?



Read thru th first few pages again, good info on brakes there. Looks like I could get a more aggressive pad if needed.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

I'm only talking about pads, lol

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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

Vegeta Gti said:


> I'm only talking about pads, lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk



Yeah I googled R5 and Touareg calipers came up. I'll look for the pads:banghead:


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

I did another trackday on this 1st October.
It was a good trackday, managed to drop 1s to my best time but only when I was alone (it was the last session as well). Did a 2.09.94.

Issues...
The water temp raised up to 108C at the last session.
It was 99, 106, 102 on the other sessions.
MAT was 39, 42, 45 and 46 on each of the 4 session.
This was with around 28C maximum outside temps.

I had an exhaust leak I could hear, but could not identify where, and instead of doing 0.8bar it was doing 0.66 and instead of high boost 1.5bar, it was doing 1.2bar.

So, still not perfect for the water I would say. MAT is really good I believe.

Oil temps, whenever I looked, was at around 86 etc. So not over 100 for sure. The sensor is the one corresponding to the cluster.
Could it be due to the low position of the sump?

The car it self, "boats" around a bit. I believe I'll need stiffer springs. Going any lower than it is will get the a-arms pointing up, which is not good. I locked the damp setting to the max, and was ok with it, but the rocking movement is still very noticeable.
I might test some front coilover springs in the rear, stiffing the rear a bit.

Other than that, good fun!

Videos:
Estoril Experience 01 Outubro 2017 VW Golf mk2 GTI - Fastest lap and best drive by's - YouTube





And the 4 sessions, in boring long videos 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jha_SE4M9L4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po9Ha3nxDFo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVvO51l0N-I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOtA8QxLW2k


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)




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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

I finally have body work coming and paint bought. Building my rotisserie in the next couple weeks. 

Cage is all done measurement and scrap fit minus actual purchase of the chrmoly tubing and installation.

Can't wait to post Moyer stuff in with you guys. Thigh in in amk1 with bt20v.... which..i have a new bottom end ready and turbo needs to go off to Arnold for the 73mm wheel and then my upgraded awic system I've been making. 

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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

Vegeta Gti said:


> I finally have body work coming and paint bought. Building my rotisserie in the next couple weeks.
> 
> Cage is all done measurement and scrap fit minus actual purchase of the chrmoly tubing and installation.
> 
> ...


opcorn::thumbup:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

HidRo said:


> I did another trackday on this 1st October.
> It was a good trackday, managed to drop 1s to my best time but only when I was alone (it was the last session as well). Did a 2.09.94.
> 
> Issues...
> ...


Car looks good bro. What springs and tires are you running?


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## HidRo (Sep 19, 2003)

Tires are Nankang NS-2R in 120 compound.
Springs are Spax Coilover springs in a JOM NJT coilover. It's really cheap combo  I think I need stiffer springs. A lot stiffer!


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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

I think my DMF is on its way out. I will be replacing it with a SMF, and I told myself that next time the trans was out I was going to get longer gearing. Highway at 3K+ sucks. I’ve been messaging Mainstay, he loves his long gears for road use and helped me in deciding if what I was thinking was good. Also messaged Vegata and he loves his TDI gears.

TDI gears would be great for street but how about the track? I usually use 3 and 4 on track. This trans would hit 75 in second and 120 in third, so those are the gears I’d be in mostly. Second would be nice since sometimes 3rd is a little too high in corners, and the first half of third may be slower with the newer gearing. I think for my current 300whp they are a little long, but I would like to go BT and hit 400 as finances allow. Mostly thinking of this now for street use, how will it be on track?


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

I say keep the gear ratio you have But change your final drive to something taller.

That way you can increase everything just a little bit instead of going with a full on TDI Box. There are all sorts of different finals out there and you can use a calculator to get a good estimation of what it's going to do for you speed by gear wise. But the longer your spool wait is, the worse that will be for you versus ailing the issue. If youre spooling 3800/4k.....big gears will suck ass

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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Single mass flywheel will definitely be an improvement and less prone to failure as compared to the DMF. I definitely think longer gearing on the 02M will benefit you on the track as you will be able to utilize your powerband more effectively without having to constantly change gears. But others with track experience might disagree with me. I know on the street, my taller geared 02J with G-Force race gearset is hard to beat!


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## mainstayinc (Oct 4, 2006)

Vegeta Gti said:


> I say keep the gear ratio you have But change your final drive to something taller.
> 
> That way you can increase everything just a little bit instead of going with a full on TDI Box. There are all sorts of different finals out there and you can use a calculator to get a good estimation of what it's going to do for you speed by gear wise. But the longer your spool wait is, the worse that will be for you versus ailing the issue. If youre spooling 3800/4k.....big gears will suck ass
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


He's got a FT and has good spoolup.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Like I had sent to you in our pm's, For me it's album Apex power that I need and I really love how much stuff is set up but I am going to change my fist and keep my taller middle years and go and a barely shorter final. 

With the new Turbo and the new bottom end, I should see a lot more power and a bit more spool so that'll help as well. But I'm also carrying around about 1000 pounds less weight in the vehicle lol

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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

mainstayinc said:


> He's got a FT and has good spoolup.


Yeah, that’s one good thing about the FT, spooled by 3500. Holding boost at the high end could be more of an issue.

I did look into getting TDI finals. To get [email protected] the gearing lined up almost exactly with what I am getting in the tdi trans.box.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

My pag v1 3071 was 20psi by 3400 and thats with the compression of the bottom end around 165 all the way across after 200k+ of 30psi lol started life with comp @210 on all 4 cylinders. I'm making the same if not better power at that rpm than an FT is might i add. I have to double check. 

I'm pulling around a 1900lb car and i feel like i would benefit from better spool, I'd love to have more power/torque @2800-3000 rpm. 

With the extra 550-950 pounds you pull around... that will be exaggerated for you lead sled drivers.


Food for thought



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