# 8v Build - Need Some Input - OBD1 ABA/16v Pistons/Aba Head/288* Cam/ Weber 45s/



## 01 (Sep 9, 2009)

so im in the process of building this motor. plan is to have a super fun weekend car/track car. 

OBD1 ABA Block 
ODD1 ABA Crankshaft 
ODD1 ABA Rods 
9a 16v Pistons 
2 Head Gaskets 
ABA Head (Not Sure Whats Better OBD1/OBD2?) 
Weber 45s (Vacuum advance ported) 
1.8 Vac Advance Dist 
TT Highflow Head Kit (Valves/Springs/Retainers/Lifters) 
TT 288 Race Cam 
AEG Ehaust Mani/Downpipe 
TT Catback 


i should be expecting 12:1 compression with the stacked head gaskets, and this would be quite a fun motor. what i need to know is would a 50/75 shot of N20 be to much for this guy to handle. being as the compression is high??, would i be asking to much out of my little 8v of fury? 

As well, would E85 perform better and help with pinging/knocking, or should i be sticking with high octane pump gas?


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

Please don't take some of what I say here wrong, I just can't understand some of the obsessions with "OBD" parts. That part will be clears in a little while, but as for the rest here are some comments/questions: 
~ Two (2) headgaskets, bad idea in my opinion. It is kind of the old Dirty Harry saying "Do you feel lucky". It would be even more of a luck pushing issue if you throw in some NO2 as the cylinder pressure is going to climb. 
~ From what I gather from doing research, the OBD1 head has better runners for performance. It could be like the 16v issue in that the newer one is better if you intend to do porting, but from the factory the OBD1 is said to be the best. That is only relayed information as I have no ABA heads here, but I believe they are like the 1.6 crossflows. 
~ 45 Webers (Vacuum advance ported)? Have to say I don't understand this one. I have used and worked with Weber carburetors (DCOE anyway) and have never had any "vacuum advance or seen them ported. Need your help clearing this one up. 
~ Vacuum/mechanical advance distributors are great in my opinion, but do you know just how to set and adjust the advance curve? If so that's good, if not then start reading up on the topic before you dive in. 
~ Now the OBD issue. Just why does everyone have this hang-up with or need to list the parts as OBD when it comes to the cylinder block? OBD has nothing to do with the engine itself, but the management being used. That said there were changes made when the change from OBD1 to OBD2 was done. Seeing as I have no ABA code engines to play with all the research I have done is due to crossing with the European 2E code engine. Everything I can find, except for some people who post in forums, indicates the only difference is the oil squirters or lack of them and the cylinder head (runners and spring setup). This is true for the 2E also except the oil squirters were done away with about a half year sooner (think VW decided they were just not worth the extra cost for 8v engines). Crankshaft - same for all of them, rods - same for all of them and the block itself is the same also except for the machining of the squirters for the older ones. 

E85 will work well I think on this motor, but it will have to be setup and tuned for that fuel. It will also use more fuel, nature of the beast with E85, so which is cheaper by you, high octane or E85?.


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## 01 (Sep 9, 2009)

WaterWheels said:


> Please don't take some of what I say here wrong, I just can't understand some of the obsessions with "OBD" parts. That part will be clears in a little while, but as for the rest here are some comments/questions:
> ~ Two (2) headgaskets, bad idea in my opinion. It is kind of the old Dirty Harry saying "Do you feel lucky". It would be even more of a luck pushing issue if you throw in some NO2 as the cylinder pressure is going to climb.
> ~ From what I gather from doing research, the OBD1 head has better runners for performance. It could be like the 16v issue in that the newer one is better if you intend to do porting, but from the factory the OBD1 is said to be the best. That is only relayed information as I have no ABA heads here, but I believe they are like the 1.6 crossflows.
> ~ 45 Webers (Vacuum advance ported)? Have to say I don't understand this one. I have used and worked with Weber carburetors (DCOE anyway) and have never had any "vacuum advance or seen them ported. Need your help clearing this one up.
> ...


 
OBD1 internals are forged, aka crank and rods, as well as oil squirters, obvious benefits over the later OBD2 parts. 

as for the DCOE's, Local carb shop has modified the housing and tapped it for Vac. allowing me to properly run the early style Vac advace dist.


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## ryanthegasman (Sep 16, 2009)

theres to many chiefs and not enough indians. this looks like a fun build.opcorn:


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

> OBD1 internals are forged, aka crank and rods, as well as oil squirters, obvious benefits over the later OBD2 parts.


 Exactly the issue I was talking about, it's rubbish. They all, all 2.0L engines use the same crankshaft and rods, part number for part number. Yes the older engines had oil squirters, but if VW decided to drop the function with 8v engines it must have not been worth it, and I believe that to be true. European and US (Mexican or from Brazil) all use fordged crankshafts and rods. VW has not made cast crankshafts in more years than I care to remember and I don't think they ever used cast rods, can't think of any engines that use cast rods really. But if you really want to believe that the newer 2.0L engines have cast crankshafts then don't worry as cast crankshafts are really almost as strong as fordged ones in most cases. 

It is not so much the internals that cause me to ask questions or make these responses, but the constant use of the "OBD" thing when talking about engine parts. What an engine has inside is not based on the fuel management it uses. Take the intermeadiate shafts on 1.8L engines. Everybody called the one without the fuel pump lobe "16V" shafts. But when they started showing up in fuel injected 8v engines, because the stock of old ones ran out, "Ops", now what :what: 



> . . . as for the DCOE's, Local carb shop has modified the housing and tapped it for Vac. allowing me to properly run the early style Vac advace dist.


 That can be done just by purchasing a manifold with a vacuum port, lots of them out there, or drilling and tapping the manifold. There is not much room, too much risk of damage to an expensive carburetor, added cost and no need to try doing something like that in my opinion when it's already been done. Besides that you will discover that things will run better without the vacuum advance, in fact if set up correct the vacuum advance is worthless and really will not function, only the mechanical will/should be used on the motor you describe above. 

Like I said above, don't take what I said wrong, but I've been there, believe it or not, and just want to help save you from the mistakes and keep you on track


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## Schrottplatzer (Jun 13, 2009)

E85 requires about 33% more fuel to make the same hp, which means you'll have to watch your jets on the carbs, but since you've got overkill 45s (too big, but they look good) that shouldn't be a problem, just keep that in mind when you fill up with regular gasoline. 

Stacking gaskets is bad, just get a thicker one if you're trying to lower compression. How are you getting such high compression with stacked gaskets? 12:1 is really high, like running over 95 Octane (I forget where the math webistes are.


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## 01 (Sep 9, 2009)

WaterWheels said:


> That can be done just by purchasing a manifold with a vacuum port, lots of them out there, or drilling and tapping the manifold. There is not much room, too much risk of damage to an expensive carburetor, added cost and no need to try doing something like that in my opinion when it's already been done. Besides that you will discover that things will run better without the vacuum advance, in fact if set up correct the vacuum advance is worthless and really will not function, only the mechanical will/should be used on the motor you describe above.
> 
> Like I said above, don't take what I said wrong, but I've been there, believe it or not, and just want to help save you from the mistakes and keep you on track


 

if you tap the manifold you would be pulling full advance at idle, no wonder you think it will run better without it. 

there is a reason to tap the carb, at idle there is little to no vacuum, this would be completely ****ty and incorrect if i tapped the manifold. :screwy::screwy:


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

You know, I had a long winded response to your last post which I decided to just delete. Not because my opinion has really changed, but because it seems to me that you have not had any real dealings with this kind of carburetor or have not researched working with and tuning them or just plain old got some bad poop from the carburetor guy that did or is going to do the “vacuum port” on it. So rather then try and teach, I’ll just leave you to learn by the old “school of hard knocks”. Before I leave you to your project though may I throw a little bit your way just for kicks? 
~ You are talking it seems about porting, as in drill and tap, the barrels of side draft carburetors. Inside the barrel however, there is a choke and aux air venturi slid in and secured. You would have to drill through at least two parts, the body and one of the parts slid in, probibly the choke, and then try to thread the two. There is not all that much material, it is cast metal and very easy to break, does not take to tapping very well, tightening a fitting into the hole could crack one of the two and this would also render the parts usless for anywhere except this set-up. Can it be done? Yea I guess with luck it could. But why? There is enough material at the mounting base to do this and some factory installed carbs did have a small vacuum port installed there. Some tuners have used the carburetor mounting base to set up a tube system to equalize the multiple barrels also. But this would be still manifold vacuum. In fact any port made between the point where the throttle blade touches the inside of the carburetor barrel to the valves would be manifold vacuum. But that leads to the next bit. 
~ After doing this gee-wiz vacuum port, what have you gained? Nothing that could not have been gained by just using a manifold with a vacuum port. You have indicated that manifold vacuum would be “pulling full advance”. So that indicates, or I assume, that this port you are having made is intended to be ported vacuum (venturi vacuum), before the throttle blade. Well sit down because guess what? They are the same thing really. The only difference between the two is that ported vacuum is “turned off” while the throttle blades are closed. So in effect you will be taking a carburetor and making it usless for re-sale or tuning for a different engine (think you can change chokes, drill the new choke and get the threads to line up perfect? Doubt it really. Again this leads to the next thing. 
~ If you will be using a vacuum advance distributor, as you seem dead set on doing, you want manifold vacuum. Manifold vacuum is much more sensitive to load changes so it responds sooner. So if you must have a vacuum advance then use it with manifold vacuum. Which of course brings us to the following. 
~ Just how much vacuum and how steady do you think it will be with the camshaft you spoke of using, 288°? Is this a daily driver with this cam, no. You are going to have to set the idle rather high with this setup, maybe 1200RPM, maybe more and the throttle blades will be open a little (air by-pass never seems to get the job done). So your “ported” vacuum is gone now anyway. Then there is the need for as much initial advance as you can live with, ported vacuum losses out here also. 

If you would like, we can have a discussion about ignition systems and ignition advance types, how they work and what their pros and cons are, but that would more or less delete your original posting (or at least push it to the rear). And that is only if you would like to, you don't have to. So do what you want. It is your money and your plan. I doubt anybody will fault you for trying to do something, I sure wouldn’t, but why knock your head against a wall when others have done it and told you it hurts?


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

WaterWheels said:


> why knock your head against a wall when others have done it and told you it hurts?


 lmao, best thing ive heard all week!


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## bluntman220 (Feb 21, 2007)

*obd*

there are diff:screwy: 




tdogg74 said:


> Joint effort by me and Jeff.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

bluntman220 said:


> there are diff:screwy:


 I would say you are correct in one way, there are different opinions. If by diff you mean different. I however do not work with engines based on opinions when it comes to buying or replacing parts. What you never see, and if someone has done this please direct me there so I can cross-reference them, is post pictures and/or part numbers showing the different crankshafts. I have and have had 4 different versions of ETKA, three versions (up-grades) of ETOS and have emailed and visited many different Volkswagen people/places (from Europe to Brazil and lots in between). Not one source or person will say, admit, indicate or prove that cast crankshafts were installed in any 2.0L engine. So I'm open for facts, but have ask for and never recieved any "proof" or maybe proof that they do exist. Until I see the proof I will always tell people that the information is incorrect.


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

Aside from wut waterwheels is telling u why dont u leave the compression at 14:1 eliminating the stacked gasket and run C16 gas as this is going to be a weekend/track car??? and yes u can shoot a 50 shot of N2O if its absolutely necessary but i would invest in a set of forged pistons as the cast ones are not gona last long(better make sure the car is tuned 100% aswell or byebye), i dont see a head stud kit in ur plans, i would fit that into the budget. Get rid of the cat, the type of motor ur building wont like the restriction and why even hav it if its a track car????:screwy: also with that type of bottom end ull benefit more from a solid lifter head...just sumtin to think about....


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## 01 (Sep 9, 2009)

TheMajic86GTI said:


> Aside from wut waterwheels is telling u why dont u leave the compression at 14:1 eliminating the stacked gasket and run C16 gas as this is going to be a weekend/track car??? and yes u can shoot a 50 shot of N2O if its absolutely necessary but i would invest in a set of forged pistons as the cast ones are not gona last long(better make sure the car is tuned 100% aswell or byebye), i dont see a head stud kit in ur plans, i would fit that into the budget. Get rid of the cat, the type of motor ur building wont like the restriction and why even hav it if its a track car????:screwy: also with that type of bottom end ull benefit more from a solid lifter head...just sumtin to think about....


 heh, arp head bolts are in the plan. just figured it was assumed with a build like this. 


i have the 16v pistons and rods sitting next to my block now, now im just trying to find info on what rods to use.. 

are the aba/9a rods the same, or is one shorter than the other?


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

01 said:


> heh, arp head bolts are in the plan. just figured it was assumed with a build like this.
> 
> 
> i have the 16v pistons and rods sitting next to my block now, now im just trying to find info on what rods to use..
> ...


 pretty sure the 9a uses shorter rods than the ABA.. 99% positive.


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

01 said:


> are the aba/9a rods the same, or is one shorter than the other?


 ABA Rod 159 WP 21 
9A Rod 144 WP 20 

So no not the same 
ANd the wrist pins are a different size too 
Look in here might hav sum useful info 

http://www.not2fast.com/vw/stuff/vw_engines.shtml


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

TheMajic86GTI said:


> Aside from wut waterwheels is telling u why dont u leave the compression at 14:1 eliminating the stacked gasket and run C16 gas as this is going to be a weekend/track car??? and yes u can shoot a 50 shot of N2O if its absolutely necessary but i would invest in a set of forged pistons as the cast ones are not gona last long(better make sure the car is tuned 100% aswell or byebye), i dont see a head stud kit in ur plans, i would fit that into the budget. Get rid of the cat, the type of motor ur building wont like the restriction and why even hav it if its a track car????:screwy: also with that type of bottom end ull benefit more from a solid lifter head...just sumtin to think about....


 the compression ratio will be around 12:1 with that combo. 

Waterwheels: That link is correct and I have seen cast cranks in the 96+ engines. I am not surprised that there is not a part number difference or reference on EKTA, etc. This is all for NA spec engines (esp. US) and the differences are related to the OBD 1 and 2 change which is why most people refer to the engines that way. I have heard and it seems plausible that the oil squirters were throwing erroneous OBD 2 codes is the reason VW stopped utilizing them (the galley is there if you want to install them.)


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

Like I said above in a round about way, I'm open for solid proof. I more or less know you are smart when it comes to VW stuff, but for me that is not enough when I have done a lot of looking into this, in my spare time. I was at Autostadt many time, maybe 8, and took the plant tour 3 times. There and also at the Kassel engine plant near me I asked some questions. One was if and in what engines VW installed cast crankshafts. My answer was that for their own engines no cast crankshafts are installed, only for "out sourced" engines if cost is an issue. I have to believe this if nothing except for word of mouth is given, even yours just like I am sure you will not take mine. I also can't believe that if there were two crankshafts, that they would not be listed with seperate part numbers. After all, VW has a part number for everything, even when a tiny change is made or two parts will fit and work the same, they both will have a number. Heck, even the light bulbs have their own part number. It just is so with VW and has been for a long long time. I mean, just how would you feel if you ordered a brand spanking new crankshaft for your project and they shipped you a cast crank? Would you fall for the line that that part number is for both a cast and fordged crank and you just happened to get a cast one? Doubt it. Any how, I will change my tune only when I see it in black and white (or color). Hope everyone understands my position. 

I tend to believe that the squirter thing is cost driven. Other engines with on board diagnostics still got oil squirters, just the "every day" engines like the common 8v lost them it seems. But oil squirters are minor stuff to fret about and I just noted it as a known difference based on the year it was built. I would really like to see some 100% proof of the crankshaft thing to set the record straight, but until that day come I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that issue. No hard feelings everybody, I hope.


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

vwpat said:


> the compression ratio will be around 12:1 with that combo.


 My understanding was a 9A with an 8v head is 14:1?? If u stack the gaskets it will bring it down to 12:1 which is what im NOT recommending...


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

TheMajic86GTI said:


> My understanding was a 9A with an 8v head is 14:1??


 that is correct but he is using an ABA block with 9A pistons which cause them to sit 1 mm+ lower in the block and lowers compression by ~1.2 points.


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

vwpat said:


> that is correct but he is using an ABA block with 9A pistons which cause them to sit 1 mm+ lower in the block and lowers compression by ~1.6 points.


 Gotcha but wouldnt that put it at 8.5:1 ????


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## 01 (Sep 9, 2009)

im wondering what my final comp will be as well, ive heard conflicting numbers.


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

TheMajic86GTI said:


> Gotcha but wouldnt that put it at 8.5:1 ????


 the 8V head on 9A bottom end yields `~14:1 as you said. The 9A pistons in an ABA block with 16V head yields ~9.2:1 I said ~1.6 lower (9A are advertised at 10.8:1 but CC out to 10.2-10.4:1) but should have said ~1-1.2 lower so ~13:1 or a little under for his combo.


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## 01 (Sep 9, 2009)

vwpat said:


> the 8V head on 9A bottom end yields `~14:1 as you said. The 9A pistons in an ABA block with 16V head yields ~9.2:1 I said ~1.6 lower (9A are advertised at 10.8:1 but CC out to 10.2-10.4:1) but should have said ~1-1.2 lower so ~13:1 or a little under for his combo.


13:1 eh


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