# VAG 503.01, 504.01, 507.00 - WARNING 5W-30 oil and long service interval can cause severe engine damage



## S4fanq (Dec 28, 2012)

WARNING - Use 5W-30 oil in combination with long service interval (15000-30000 km) will cause abnormal wear on certain structures in many engines, the consequences varies much between models and engine constructions, some are not affected where others suffer severe damage, especially vulnerable and exposed is Timing Chains and Sprockets, Chain Tensioners, Guide Rails, Glide Rails, Oil Pump Sprockets and Chain etc and basicly all structures that are lubricated by oil splatter and depending on that the OIL FILM (boundary lubrication, not oil pressurized) will be strong enough to keep the moving parts away from each other (avoid friction).

All 0W- or 5W-oil i have seen yet is like water after 50000 km and will then fail to lubricate this parts and they will suffer abnormal wear because of that, and in time will end up with total engine failure in many cases.
The viscosity diagram looks very fine on paper but the reality looks different after 5000 km.


** OBS - This is a general problem with many car brands an models today **


The main problem is that the base oil for 0W- or 5W- oils are very thin and will need much additives to make the oil 30W viscosity (thicker) when the motor is hot, the interval between 5W-30 is much larger then for an 10W-40 oil and 10W-40 oil will therefore last futher longer, and will lubricate theese parts much better.

Solution:
1. Use VAG 0W- or 5W-oil and Change the oil in max 5000 km interval (change the oil by yourself between the service interval 30000 km)
2. Use an fully synthetic 10W-40 oil that in all other aspects meet the VAG oil standards and change in 10000-15000 km interval.
3. "Longlife"- Forget that if you care about your engine.

I will illustrate some of the VW/Audi engines that are heavely affected by this problem (last section).


VAG Oil Spec:
http://www.oilspecifications.org/volkswagen.php

VW 504/507 supercedes and effectively replaces

- VW 501.01 (ancient multigrade spec)
- VW 500.00 (ancient friction-modified oil spec)
- VW 502.00 (current friction-modified oil spec)
- VW 503.01 (similar to VW 502, plus ext. drain)
- VW 505.00 (ancient and still current regular diesel spec)
- VW 505.01 (spec for PD diesel and some gas engines)
- VW 503.00 (low HTHS spec for gas engines w/ext. drain)
- VW 506.00 (low HTHS diesel spec for specific engines)
- VW 506.01 (A few engines* still require this low HTHS oil)

VW 504/507- oils are dual-rated 5W-30. HTHS=3.5. 

All VW and Audi engines can use VW 504/507 dualrated oil. Only the R5 and V10 TDI PD VW engine require nothing but VW 506.01. Audi does 

not require VW 506.01 and allows categorically VW 504/507.

504 / 507 adds Diesel Particulate Filter compatibility and it consolidates the VW oil specifications.




Engine oil and long service interval:


1. Why do car manufactures recommend so thin motor oil?

Answer: Because they then protect against engine damage if customers start and drive the car hard direct at the severe cold, cold engine and engine oil, motor oil with higher viscosity (thicker), the hard driving directly when the engine is very cold could cause engine failure in severe cold due that the oil does not reach all lubrication points in small 
channels, the worst affected are con rod bearings (connecting rods to the crankshaft bearings), such a thin oil 5W means that the base oil is very thin and it is additives in the oil that makes it thicker when the oil is hot (30W), the problem is that the additives wear out after approximately 3000-5000 km because it takes a lot of additives to obtain a thin oil become thick as the range or "distance" of the base oil viscosity and 30W are much larger when compared to a 10W-40 oil (low viscosity of the base oil).
After 4000-5000 km is a 0W- or 5W- oil as thin as water constantly and the oil film then is so thin that it fails to lubricates timing chains, guide rails, slide rails enough and abnormal wear and often with engine damage as a result.

Another big reason is that with thin oil becomes less friction in the engine, and draw slightly less fuel and then get somebetter exhaust values (environmental classification and emission values).



2. Why do car manufacturers such long service intervals with so-called "Long Life Oil"?

Answer: Car manufactures want to get the car approved in a higher environmental class = selling argument, most people who have knowledge of motors do not drive the car further than 10000 - 15000 km between oil changes if you also still run on thin oil (as they recommend) you should never run more than the maximum of 5000 km and it lubricates still not enough, but is almost as "Water" when you drop out of it.
It is also matters how the car is driven, long driving (commuting) keeps the oil longer, shorter distances, change more frequently, hard driving, change more frequently.
I recommend running on a good fully synthetic 10W-40 oil that meet the VAG standards except for the 0W-, or 5W- viscosity, and possibly run thinner oil only the coldest period of the year ( below -5 celsius), then run 10W-40 the rest of the year, but is absolutely not necessary if running easy or normal during the warm up, that is recommended behavior anyway for the engine.


3. Why you should never change the oil in the automatic transmission called "Lifetime oil"?
Answer: The same reason, to get the car approved in a higher environmental class, you should ideally change the oil after about 30000 km, or at least after 80000 km, especially the heavier stronger luxury cars or else wear the tranny out prematurely.





Description Oil film:

The main reason for most of the problems due to the recommended oil only manage to lubricate the engine's vital parts well enough that are pressurized with oil pressure (full film lubrication) with hydrostatic or hydrodynamic lubrication which means that the oil keeps moving parts separated from each other and it is the engine oil lubricating film which is really the "bearing".

The problem is that the oil viscosity is too thin (how "thick" or "viscous" oil is) is that the parts that are not pressurized but lubricated with "splash lubrication" such as timing chains, slide rails, guide rails and similar structures where oil film building up because oil is sprinkled on the parts and is dependent on the so-called Boundary lubrication not lubricated good enough because the lubricating film is too thin / weak and under load from the gears, chains etc. fails to maintain lubricating film without "breaks through" the lubricating film and friction occurs when the metal makes contact against the metal with abnormally high wear as a consequence.

The "red thread" is short for excessive wear and if all car owner used the good synthetic motor oil with higher viscosity of the base oil 10W- instead 0W- or 5W- and shorter service intervals we would avoid many of the known problems with engine damage and damage to the engine and not have to be affected by the expensive engine repairs to 
damaged timing chains constructs with the drive and tensioner etc.

** Note that this is a general problem in many cars where some models affected more than others depending on construction **


Make automakers 'wrong' ?, - We can have many opinions about this but there is big money involved and they protect their interests and are controlled by the game rules of competitive bidding. 
The solution must be that we car owners themselves first of all become aware of the problem (take a position on it) and completely simply replace the oil ourself between car manufacturers established "Service Intervals", or better yet change oil i after 4000 km with 

10W-40 oil, and after that by 10000 km interval so we avoid expensive and unnecessary repairs.

Think that all car owners have the right to be informed about the problems and can themselves decide it, and hope this means that in all cases, some car owners to be able to avoid unnecessary problems and costs.




All of this problems specified below is caused by poor/insufficient lubrication.
Practicle all engines with Timing chain are affected, espcially them with long chains like VW/Audi V8/V10 are overrepresented.
If they are proper lubricated the will last much longer and will instead be very durable.
Even oil pressured parts will suffer problems when the oil become extremely thin and problems with oil film, such as camshaft in some engines like 2.4 V6

Short Descriptions and Google search Keywords:

"Audi S4 4.2L V8 B6/B7 Timing chain problem", "Audi S8 5.2L V10 Timing chain problem"
This engine is extremely vulnerable for poor lubrication and have problems with the timing chains.
OBS run this engine with low oil pressure means high risk for total engine failure because of poor timing chain tensioner function when 

the oil is thin, timing chains then got slack and shock the chain guides that will break and then increase the problem untilengine 

failure is an fact. This engine need 10W-40 oil (absolutely critical).


"2.0T FSI engine problem" - Lot of search result on internet..
"2.0T FSI Fuel pump Cap" - Fuel pump Cap and camshaft failure because of poor lubrication.
"2.0T FSI Timing chain" - Transmission chain between the camshafts and chain tensioner
"2.0 TDi Oil pump problems" - Chain and sprockets wear down.

"3.2L V6 Timing chain problems" - The tensioner wear out and cause engine failure.
"VR6 Timing chain problems" - 
"2.4L V6 Camshaft problems" - 

"BMW 2.0 Diesel Timing chain problems" and so on.....


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## S4fanq (Dec 28, 2012)

Modern engines are not "designed" for thin oils and long service intervals, but it's environmental directives
and laws and market forces behind this, and not what is best for our engines.

Internet is crawling with repair manuals and job descriptions for wrecked engines.

*Would be better if instead avoids the cause of the problems, that we care for them better*


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## alexkod22 (Sep 1, 2011)

Nice article. Thanks


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## Victor Huge (Aug 21, 2009)

These are some wild theories, have any proof? What are your credentials? Unless you make engine oil for a living and can prove 10w-40 isn't dangerous to a modern engine, i think it's best people follow their user manual.


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## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

10W40 in modern engines IS dangerous.

The flow rate is lower, thus does not optimally carry heat away from internals.
The thicker oil will also flow slower through the smaller oil galleys. You can 
have all the oil up in the head, and it not getting back to the sump fast enough
when it's cold. Todays engines have smaller galleys for the lighter weight
oils, and 10W40 isn't going to flow back down fast enough cold. 

The spacing in the bearings is tighter, the thicker oil can cause flow issues here too. 

Thicker oil causes more drag on the engine, reduces MPG.

Climate: If you're going below ZERO, with today's engines, will have very bad cold
starts, insufficient lubrication with 10W40.

You will get more sludge with 10W40, especially short trips.

Any motor calling for a 0W20 should never use 10W40.

Some people switch to when they got high miles, quiets the motor, and helps with any
irregularities in lobe and bearing wear, a temporary fix. Basically, they commonly use 
10W-40 motor oil in vehicles with higher mileage because the oil is thicker, while the 
engine is hot; this helps lubricate older moving parts. The 10W-40 oil is not as reliable 
for engine start-up in colder winter climates as 5W-40 is.

If you can FIND a 10W40 with a VW spec on it? Then you can use it in the summer,
or all areas that never go below 10c.

I would never use it in my '15 TSI.


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## GmadGman (Jan 31, 2021)

I know this thread is old, but volkswagen engines were designed for thicker oils in mind and this is still true, its a cast iron engine, cannot dissipate heat as quickly as an aluminum engine with cylinder liners. Our oil pumps are made to pump really hard, it all comes down to climate temperatures.

Ford F150's a while back when they started using 5w20 saw alot of accelerated wear in their engines when used heavily in towing and so fourth, even just driving them.


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