# Help Stranded with battery issues! Car won't respond



## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

Hi guys, 

While on a trip to Portugal my car came up with dreaded "System Fault - Workshop" which is usually a sign of the battery being low. However the person who was in my car, and who we won't name!, kept trying to get the car to start to such an extent that both batteries ended up drained. Where we are there is no VW garage for miles and miles and they have taken it to a Peugeot garage where they have recharged the two batteries but they say the car simply doesn't respond. 

What should I tell them to do? They say they have a VW/AUDI scanning device but that at the moment the car doesn't do anything. 

Symptoms - the central screen lights up but the instrument cluster remains dark. It's a 2004 V10, no real probs up to now except with the TPMS. 

Can someone advise me on what to do here? What should I tell them? Is there a secret sequence they have to do this in?

Thanks,

Iain


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

I'd start by checking fuses. Maybe one of those where blown while recharing the batteries.


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## EricAdams (Oct 5, 2009)

Did you try the "hard start" technique--in which you back the key counterclockwise as far as it will go, and then cycle it through clockwise again? My car has been giving similar symptoms when left undriven for more than a few days. If that works, the car may have to be driven more than an hour for it to "take"--otherwise you'll have to repeat it every time. Just spitballing here ...


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Has it rained lately?


- Josh
(yes, sent from my phone..excuse the typos)


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## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

Hi there Josh, Eric and Auzi,

Funny question one of you asked, yes it has rained recently. All day as well. 

I did try the "hard start" but only when the car was already dead. I have a few updates for you. 

1. The car in the garage today has had both batteries charged. Now it responds, after a fashion. They called me to say it is not recognising the key so I took the other one with me. Same thing. Car is locked, alarm on. The kessy doesn't do a thing so you open the car with the key in the "old fashioned" way. When you get in the alarm goes off. It doesn't stop even if you put the key in the ignition. 

Now with key in the ignition the car doesn't repond at all. The instrument cluster put a message up which is "Move Selecter to the P position". It says this all the time, even when it is in P! A solid amber key symbol comes up but not always. 

What is weird is that the main screen display does show that the key is in the car, whether in the ignition or not. It states correctly that Key 2 or Key 1 is in the car. I can go into the settings and look at them, change the name of the key etc. But the brain of the car, shall we say, does not detect the key. 

The guy ran a diagnostic, bear in mind that there is no VW for about 180 miles and he is using a VAG-COM system. He told me got loads of errors in the immobiliser system and in lots of other things that he puts down to the power out. The repeating error is one that comes up with Kessy. As it was late he has left it now and on Monday is going to check again. He has also said he will check fuses. 

Any other ideas for this one? :banghead:


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Yea.. the rain killed your car. 


Stick your head under the driver side door and look up at the floor pan, you will see a black rubber plug about an 1.5 inch diameter.

Stick a screw driver under the edge and pry it out. I bet a bunch of water comes out. If not, just pop the plug back in. Easy enough to check and I bet that is where your problem lies.

Very common (have several friends who are dealer techs, and although they won't go on record..it is *VERY* common)


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

iberkoko said:


> What is weird is that the main screen display does show that the key is in the car, whether in the ignition or not.


Hello Iain,
The good thing of the Kessy is that the car still recognizes your key. That is due to the transponder part of the key. In order to "repair" the remote keyfob, you simply enter the car (in the old fashioned way), then immediately start the car (either with the key or with the keyless start button), and once the engine is running, you simply press the UNLOCK and/or LOCK button of your keyfob. When you do that within 10 or 15 seconds, your car will respond with the flashing turn signals.

As far as the batteries is concerned, I suggest that you take your time to charge the convenience battery first. In normal cases (yours sure is not), you don't need to charge the starter battery because that one barely gets discharged (just a little bit during starting). So leave your car overnight with the charger connected (outside the car) with the bootlid closed and ignition off, otherwise there are many consumers that prevent charging all together.

It would be great when you at least start the car, because then you can again connect the VAG COM and let it do a full scan. Then, you and your technician may be puzzled by all the errors, but the best thing would be to store the log file and then clear all DTC's. Whether or not your car was successfully started earlier, it is best to leave the charger on to make sure that a too low battery voltage again generates a myriad of errors, which is usually the case when voltage gets low.
After you have cleared the DTC's, the VAGCOM will again make a scan (if not, just initiate a new scan), and see what errors are reported. I suggest you then post the saved file (as plain text) on the forum which allows us as forum members to come with possible solutions.
Success!

Willem


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## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

Hi Willem and others, 

The problem is we can't get the car to start! The car recognises the key in the centre screen but doesn't seem to in the ignition or in the instrument cluster. When you get in the car - using the physical part of the key, it won't respond by touching the door handle or by pressing the remote open button - the alarm goes off. Nothing will stop it either, you put the key in the ignition and it does nothing but say "Move the Selector to P". And it doesn't matter what you do with the selector it keeps saying this. 

The diagnostic scan gives lots of errors, as we know it would. Most of them clear such as the immobiliser and other errors that come up. The one that remains in place is in the KESSY control module. I won't know till Monday if this is a fuse issue or if the module is fried. 

Any other ideas to get the car to recognise the keys? It's only luck that we had both keys with us but the car doesn't want either of them. 

It's a shame to see my woderful car rejecting its friends like this 

Regards,

Iain


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Why don't you try what I suggested? 

The kessy computer is located directly above the drain plug that I referenced, and yes it will be filled with water and ruined.

Been there, done that. (not on my car thank god).


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## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

Hi Josh,

I will try this. The car is a workshop now and I won't be able to get back to it till Monday morning. 

Any other thoughts while we wait?

Thanks,

Iain


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Thoughts?

This is going to cost anywhere from $1500-2,000 to fix off the top of my head depending on who does the work and where you get your parts.


Have all the drains cleared, snip the ends off the nipples to prevent this from happening again.


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Hi,
very sorry to hear of your plight!!! I keep telling folks here that parts ARE READILY AVAILABLE AT GREATLY REDUCED PRICES ON eBay.de Last Kessy unit was about 150 euros!! Do not despair, take a deep breath and be prepared (if you can) to wait and grab the bargains!!!
Good luck and I hope things work out well for you!


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## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

Dear me I didn't fancy a bill like that just now. Josh, when you say this amount is this because we will most likely have to replace the Kessy unit. 

EnglishPhaeton, didn't see your name sorry, what would a TPMS control unit for a Phaeton cost, any idea? 

Regards, 

Iain


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

iberkoko said:


> Dear me I didn't fancy a bill like that just now. Josh, when you say this amount is this because we will most likely have to replace the Kessy unit.
> 
> EnglishPhaeton, didn't see your name sorry, what would a TPMS control unit for a Phaeton cost, any idea?
> 
> ...


Hi Iain,

sorry no tpms on at the moment, however if your Kessy is Kaput, there are two available at the moment for less than €170!! Its almost like insurance to buy one just in case.

Good luck

Stu


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## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

Hi Stu,

Would the Kessy unit work on my car. I was reading this thread here: 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4433216

And it seems it might not work properly. Any ideas? 

Regards,

Iain


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## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

Hello again, 

Ok it has now got to a VW garage and they have said the problem is in the immobiliser control module, ref. is 3D0 909 137 FX 01D. 

They have quoted me 350.62 Euros for this. Any idea if I can get this any cheaper elsewhere? What is its name other than 3D0 etc? 

regards, 

Iain


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

That IS the Kessy.. and the exact problem is what I told you above. 

Simply replacing the Kessy will not fix the car, it needs to be programmed into the security system and matched with the SKC & all the keys. 

When you say 'vw garage', is this a dealer or an independent shop? 

If they had the capability to program the Kessy (which if an independent, they more than likely do not).. unless all the drains on the car are cleared (there are several) the problem will happen again. 

The control module did not fail, it was damaged by water. It is not the cause of the problem, simply a consequence.


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## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

Hi Power, 

Yes now it is in a dealership. They can reprogram etc. In fact they requested both keys. I have now located this item on ebay in Germany: 

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=110659862594 

It is way cheaper than the pricing VW are quoting. I guess as the letters are the same bar a FX 01 that I can buy this and then get VW to do their 300 euros worth of recoding?? 

Any fast help appreciated! 

Iain


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## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

Sorry it is here: 

http://cgi.ebay.de/VW-TOUAREG-PHAET...=130466685581&ps=63&clkid=7755130946028308141 

Let see if this works.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

As you saw from my other post, we had issues with the first Kessy we were sent by 1st Vw Parts (which is a VW dealer) and had to order a 2nd Kessy module by the vehicle VIN from Germany. 

Maybe you will have better luck.. but I am surprised a dealer would put in a 2nd hand part bought off Ebay. They should be able to see in their computer that is states to order by VIN. 

Good luck.


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## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

I saw your issues. My VW dealership are not that forthcoming on whether it will work or not. They say that they can reprogram the unit and are fine with me buying one from someone else. The issue is that the unit be the one for that car, not necessarily that VIN (According to the parts manager. He doesn't know why the 01 appears before the D so is concerned it may be a connector issues. Has not mentioned anything else...) 

Maybe I will ask him if it is posisble to recode KESSY units taken from one car and out in another? 

Regards, 

Iain


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## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

Stu? Can you tell me if that unit on ebay.de would be suitable? Does ANYONE know what the 01 means before the D? I know that the FX means a reconditioned part so that's fine. 

Someone let me know if they know  

Regards, 

Iain


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

iberkoko said:


> Stu? Can you tell me if that unit on ebay.de would be suitable? Does ANYONE know what the 01 means before the D? I know that the FX means a reconditioned part so that's fine.
> 
> Someone let me know if they know
> 
> ...


 Hi Iain, 
I'm afraid I am not confident enough to say one way or another. Have you tried the UK VW Phaeton customer care line? Just don't tell them you are looking at something on eBay!! 
Stu


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## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

Thanks for your help, Stu. My instinct is that this is probably ok but the problem I have is that I just can't get a clear message back from the vendor - I just don't speak German. does anyone speak German who could send the guy a message for me, just to find out what his reply really is? 

Here is our exchange so far, it seems to me he is being a bit ambigous... 

First email from me plus his brief response (I sent it also translated via GT) 

I have a 2004 VW Phaeton V10 and my VW dealership have told me my KESSY module has malfunctioned and that I need to replace it. They code they have given me is 3D0 909 137 FX 01D. The FX means it is a reconditioned part but I am not sure if the part you have with the code 3D0 909 137 D is the same one. 

Can you tell me if this is the correct KESSY part for a 2004 VW Phaeton?" 

Reply: 

Hallo Das wiese ich nicht 

Next email: 

I asked for him to clarify, apologizing for my terrible german. he said this: 

"ob es funktioniert 
Ich weise nicht ob es funktioniert" 

So, what do we think? Where's Michael nowadays? I believe not only does he know the car, he knows German! 

Regards, 

Iain


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## TX170754 (Jun 5, 2010)

He is saying that he doesn't know if the parts works.


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

Iberkoko: 

Stu has already effectively answered your questions but Google translate gives the following-- 


First reply was 
Hello as I do not 

Next email was 
if it works 
I would not know if it works " 


Jim X


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## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

Ok so sounds like a dead end there. I have seen a forum post on another site about getting the KESSY module _repaired_ 

I just hate being ripped off by VW, I have a MB GL320 and Mercedes never charge me like VW have with the Phaeton!


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

If you saw what the insides looked like on the damaged Kessy module we had, you would understand why repair is off the table. 

Again, keep in mind this wasn't a part failure.. it is a part getting immersed in water while having electrical current hooked up to it. 

I don't know if you've ever seen how thick the space/foam is under the carpet on a Phaeton, but it is probably 4-5 inches and holds a LOT of water.


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## TX170754 (Jun 5, 2010)

Iain, 

If you don't have the parts catalog any dealer should be able to exactly tell you what PN you need, then go on e-bay.de and see if you can find it, there are plenty of Phaetons in Germany, so, you should be able to find a used one. 

Good luck, 
Dan


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## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

Power, 

You were totally correct, they have taken out the KESSY unit and the whole area is soaked and the unit itself saturated with water! 

However, they are trying to tell me that there is something like 20 hours work to be done to fix this. Can you please let me know what we need to do so I can tell them exactly how to get this done. I don't want them charging me the hours they mention when we could guide them with the problem as you have obviously been through this before. 

Regards, 

Iain 

You can get me on my personal email if necessary, just PM here. 

Thanks in advance!


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

They are going to charge what they are going to charge. Telling them what you think they should be doing (and therefor charging) never has good results. 

As I already outlined above.. all the drains in the car need to be cleared, I advise snipping the ends off the nipples as well. The Kessy needs to be replaced and new one programmed. 

You will *never* get the water out of the car so don't even waste time and money on that. Pull all the drain plugs in the floor pan and leave them out for a while. Put a plastic bag over the new module and wrap the end of the bag *extremely* well around the wiring harness sealing it with strong wide tape. 

With all the superb engineers working on this car, I find it a great fault that they put a computer under the carpet where water would run even by something as simple as a drivers side window left down. There are several car models exactly like this, the Phaeton is not the only one.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Hello Iain, 
Based on what Josh was writing, the job could be done much quicker. Just let the water out and wait. As far as the Kessy is concerned, it is just a pity that most technicians don't know how to salvage parts which are soaked with water. Most electronics can be fixed easily by taking them apart, rinse them with distilled water and then with IPA, to get rid of the remaining water. Dealers don't do that because it rarely happens that electronics get soaked. First thing to do is to put the entire control unit (disassembled or not) in a bucket of fresh water. Do not let it dry. The salts in the water then will become concentrated and attack components. Next take it apart, and rinse it with tap water, with distilled water, then with IPA. 
With lint free cloth, you then can take away most of the remaining IPA. 
Leave it at a warm and dry place for about 24 hours, i.e. on a central heater convection unit. Of course, do not put in the oven, it will be too hot. 
It takes about 20 minutes and is worth a try, since you seem to have troubles finding a new one. I suggest that you ask your dealer to let you treat the Kessy unit as you want to give this method a try. 

As far as the German text is concerned: he is saying that he "doesn't know ...whether it will function or not". He doesn't seem to be a great support for you, if I may say so. 

Willem


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

PowerDubs said:


> If you saw what the insides looked like on the damaged Kessy module we had, you would understand why repair is off the table.


 The damage probably was caused by opening the case, then letting it dry. During the drying cycle, the dissolved salts become stronger and improves corrosion of virtually all components and solderings. 

Willem


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## Victor R (Jan 7, 2010)

> ...rinse them with distilled water and then with IPA....


 For the non-chemists here, note that Willem is referring to isopropyl alchohol, not India Pale Ale. Save the latter for after the job is done.  

Victor


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## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

Willem, 

Many thaks for that. I have spoken to them, they said the kessy module looks like it has leaked some sort of green fluid or something. Sulphates they said. They really were not very receptive to the idea of trying to fix it! 

Dubs, they say they will have to try and find where the water came in. As this is not new is there anyway I can sort of tell them that it is via here or there or something? They already say they spent 4 hours to discover it was the KESSY module even though the car went to them from a Portuguese garage saying that the KESSY module didn't work! 

Thanks for all you help guys, especially the IPA definition from Victor. 

Regards, 

Iain


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

While what you speak of is true for drying out and cleaning basic electronics, it won't work in this situation. 

This isn't a cell phone that was dropped in a toilet, it is a control board in a car with an electrical system capable of delivering up to 300amps. Some things don't like getting wet when the power is on. 

You can certainly try anything you want, but don't be surprised to find out you wasted your time. 

There is a reason I knew to ask if it rained and point to the exact problem- I've actually done this before. 

:beer:


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## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

Hi Power, 

You have been right in this so far and I value your input. My fear is that the VW dealership want to take my car apart almost completely. They have said they will have to take out all the seats, lift up all the carpets check all of the wiring and "search for where the water comes in". 

As you have been through this once already what can I tell them? I don't want a bill for thouands here and they are talking now as if the car has been in a swimming pool. Bear in mind that I have not seen it for a few days. 

Let's see if you can help me! What is the minimum that should be done to get this back to me working then I can see how to ensure water doesn't get in again. 

Thanks to everyone for their help. 

Iain


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Unfortunately, your car HAS been in a swimming pool. 

Please reread what I have wrote, as I have said it several times already. 

As I mentioned earlier, the foam padding under the carpet is several inches thick.. it holds a LOT of water and you will never get it dry so don't bother. 

Replace the Kessy module and enclose it in a sturdy plastic bag and wrap tightly with strong wide tape. That will keep it dry and safe. 

Clean out all the drains in the car. There are several..and there are threads on how and where. (sunroof drains, cowl drains, etc.) Cut the ends off the nipples to allow them to flow more freely with less chance of future clogging. 

Even just doing these simple steps will cost thousands from the dealer, there is no getting around that. You can clean the drains yourself if you are handy and replace the Kessy...but you will still need to have someone with the capability of programming the new module to your car and keys.


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## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

Many thanks Powerdubs, 

I am going to get them to replace the KESSY and place it in a bag as you have said and then use another workshop that I know that are cheaper to do the cleaning work and drying work. 

That should stop the "Phaeton tax" that VW charge. 

Regards, 

Iain


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## fdtinc (Dec 31, 2010)

*not helpful really*

"Please reread what I have wrote, as I have said it several times already." 

Josh, iberkoko did read all the previous post, and then asked very appropriate, to the point follow up questions. 

Not to be snide, but all your answers are very parsimonious, and not very helpful. 
You can certainly answer any way you like or not, but one of the points of this forum, is that sharing information is helpful to the community. 

Michael is the excellent example of that: his info posts provide so much useful information, he anwers questions, and points out problem spots, ahead of them being asked or accidentally discovered. 
While his dedication is surely hard to emulate: 

Your answers are the opposite. 
You provide enough information for us to become aware that you really know something about this issue, but leave it at that tease. 
What is the point of that? 
It certainly is not helpful, in the context of sharing individually aquired knowledge in the community. 
Better to not hint at ones knowledge at all, if it doesn't get shared. 

To the point: 

The water damage must obviuosly NOT have been that OBVIOUS, as iberkoko did not notice any of it as a major issue, until you pointed it out. 
And yet, the problem is common enough, for you to have dealt with this once at least, and to permit you to diagnose from afar. 

This means others here should take precautionary measures, but which ones? 

Your clean drain, snip nipples reply, is in the context of iberkoko's question, what do I do now, and is thus in the how-to-fix context. 

While that same fix may also be the preventive thing to do, seems logical, there is not a word as to what one should do so this doesn't happen in the first place. 

Finally, if the VW dealers want to access the foam from inside (based upon iberkokos) description, then it would appear at least in part accessible, and thus not really sealed off, from the inside. 
Yet, such a major waterlog was not instantly perceivable by the owner? 
If, as you say it is impossible to ever dry this out, what about a health issue, mold spores etc? 
No mention, though you do know the situation. 
The one you fixed, is it still water logged, and not problem? 

And so on. 
A telling the way Michael did, for ex. on his change-tire in hotel parking lot, shows the m.o. 

To repeat, you have no obligation to do any of that certainly, but then, unhelpful hinting of deeper knowledge not being shared, is best left out too. 
Peace.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

You say I am not helpful, yet I told him the exact cause of his problem and what needs to be done. 

You say it would be better off if I had said nothing at all. I doubt the owner of the car feels the same way. 

I'm sorry that I didn't go into a complete step by step detail, but one thing I learned quickly is that the vast majority of Phaeton owners do not work on their cars and default to a dealer. 

With that in mind, there is no need for details beyond pointing the dealer at the problem and letting them resolve it. 

You ask how to prevent the problem as opposed to resolve it. Logic would dictate that if the drains being clogged caused the water to back up and into the car, keeping them clear in the first place prevents the issues from occurring. 


The dealer 'access' consists of them wanting to remove his entire interior. The reason he did not see any water is because it ran down behind the dash and is all under the carpet (which again is several inched of foam, like a sponge.) 


My favorite part of this whole thing, what really made me sit down and type out a response is that you mention this as a community and how I should be more helpful. Yet in the *6 days* since I first mentioned clearing the drains, not a single person contributed any other information on that, even though it is thoroughly covered in the FAQ. 

Surely, with your stated awareness of Michael's posts, you know what the FAQ is and have probably seen the drain threads. But instead of YOU being helpful and pointing him to the threads or at least the FAQ...you decided to come in here and criticize me, yet contribute absolutely nothing yourself. 

Be assured, if and when the time comes that you have a problem..I'll remember you told me to keep my mouth shut. 

Pity too, as you are a fellow Phaeton owner, live in the same state I am in, and I can fix damn near anything on these cars and have a lift.


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## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

Hi guys, 

I would not want people to fall out over this issue but I would say that FDTINC has touched on something quite right, Power. You did diagnose the problem but in such a way, as he states, that I still ended up being unable to inform VW exactly how to deal with it. They found the KESSY module in water but they insist on cleaning everything, in all four corners of the car, or they will not provide a post labour warranty. It could have been helpful, for example, to indicate where the drains and "nipples" are so I can guide them to specific work. They are quite open in saying they have never seen this problem before so would listen to someone's prior experience. 

I am going there this morning to finally see the car as it has been far from me. I will let you all know what they are up to. 

The most annoying here is the KESSY itself. No one seems to know much about them so we are in VWs hands. 

Regards, 

Iain


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Uh oh!! 

hi guys, having been a contributor (minor and not necessarily the most helpful) and therefore reader and follower of this thread, I fell compelled to add my two cents worth to the above couple of posts. 
I can (not for the sake of being diplomatic) see both points of view, however in defence of PowerDubs I think that we all need to accept that everyone has a way of communicating. It will always be different to to the other guys, its not necessarily wrong or unhelpful. 
I enjoy reading for a hobby, certain authors I find difficult even to tolerate but I persevere because without reading their work I may miss something that is important to me. Other authors are a doddle, in comparison. 
Now don't misunderstand me, I am not categorising anyone on here, in the UK we have an amazing tolerance for most things (we need to)!! I have never personally come across a post or an author of a post that I find unhelpful, misleading or a "tease". Yes sometimes we don't get the response we wanted or needed, sometimes we need to ask a deeper or more meaningful question, but that is our prerogative. 
I LOVE this forum and don't want to see it implode as others have because of niggles, misunderstandings, jealousy, and all of our other human frailties. 
The best thing to say really is we ALL want to see Iain get his beloved Phaeton back on the road as quickly as possible whilst incurring the lowest possible bill!! 

Stu


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

PowerDubs said:


> one thing I learned quickly is that the vast majority of Phaeton owners do not work on their cars and default to a dealer.


 Not necessarily true PowerDubs: I almost always do my own work on the Phaeton, as on every other car I have ever owned. And I know several other members of this forum do too. One should never jump to conclusions. 
Stefano


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## BustaCuts (Mar 11, 2007)

oh boy, looks like i am in the same boat. 

was out doing some local wine tasting yesterday. drove to my second winery, got out, and noticed my car did not lock with my key. so i hit the button a few more times, nothing. got into the car, and put the key in the ignition, and couldnt get it to start. nothing. wasnt even trying to turn over. then the alarm started going off. this wasnt embarrassing at all  i tried the emergency 'hard' start. nothing. about 30 minutes later, it magically started. not sure why or how, but i got the heck back home. right as i pulled into my driveway, i got this message in red: STOP! IGNITION LOCK. 

so today i did a little reading up. i had been getting water in my car, which i thought was a leak in the back window. wrong, it was the sunroof, as i found out here. unplugged the plug under the drivers side, and water did come out. then i figured, what the heck, lets try to start it up. bad idea. it wouldnt start, not even turning over. now i cant get my key out of the ignition! its stuck. and to top it off, the alarm is going off every minute or so. neighbors are loving me. not sure what else to do, so i unhooked both batteries. at least the alarm is off. my key is stuck in the ignition. and i will be calling AAA in the morning. 

so when i show up to the dealership tomorrow, i will be telling them this: 
1. the sunroof drains are clogged. they need to be cleared, and nipples snipped to prevent this from happening again. 
2. most likely shorted out the KESSY module, which will need to be replaced. have them seal it in a bag to prevent this from happening again. 
3. anything else? 

i appreciate all the knowledge that is on the board. 

-chris


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

You can get the key back. There is a small pin-size cup on the ring around the key. If you press on it using a penball while turning the key and pulling it out, it will come out. 

P.


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## BustaCuts (Mar 11, 2007)

thanks zaphh! worked like a charm. 

-chris


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## iberkoko (Oct 27, 2009)

Ok update. This is starting to become a proper nightmare now. I had to get VW to order the Kessy and it arrived on Friday. They have mounted the unit and... nothing. The car won't recognise it and they don't know what the problem is. They have just called me to request permission to do what they have clearly being dying to do - take my car apart at 80 Euros an hour to check, and I quote, every wire, every connection, every IT module" to find the problem. 

Any other ideas from fellow Phaeton guys? I can't see how I can do any of this myself nor that a non VW (ie cheaper) workshop could do for me... 

I will keep you posted and if anyone thinks, "yep that happened to me all it was in the end was..." please let me know! 

Have a good day! 

Iain


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

PowerDubs said:


> ...With all the superb engineers working on this car, I find it a great fault that they put a computer under the carpet where water would run even by something as simple as a drivers side window left down. There are several car models exactly like this, the Phaeton is not the only one.


 The cause of water accumulating under the carpet and damaging the Access and Start Controller (the KESSY) is *NOT *infiltration of water from leaving a window open or leaving a sunroof open. The floor covering (carpet) in the footwells of the vehicle is waterproof - you can fill it up with about 4 or 5 inches of water, and that water will not permeate further down than the base of the fabric that makes up the carpet surface. If the carpet surface has been punctured, the water will not permeate down to the floorpan through the 6 inches or so of foam underneath the carpet, because the foam is closed-cell foam. 

Water infiltration into the area between the floorpan and the carpet comes from *BELOW *the car, almost always as a result of damage caused to the underbody of the car either as a result of lifting the car incorrectly, or tow truck drivers popping out floor plan plugs to chain a vehicle down on a flatbed transporter, or by the driver running the car body over objects such as curb stops. This has been extensively discussed and documented on this forum before - in fact, there is even a post in the Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category) that addresses this exact problem, and shows a damaged KESSY controller: 

Lifting the Phaeton on a Hydraulic Lift - Precautions 

Just to make the point clear, and to eliminate any doubt that might have been created by statements made in earlier posts: The problem is *NOT *caused by water getting in from above. The problem is caused by water getting in from *BELOW*. Water gets in from below when the underbody of the car is damaged, and you can see evidence of that damage on the post I referenced above. 

Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Here is some additional information that will show you exactly what I mean in my post directly above. Note that the large black part visible in the picture below is the Access and Start Controller (the KESSY). 

When you leave an unplugged hole in the underside of the car the size of the one in the picture above, and that hole is located very close to an electronic component, you are going to get water infiltration from BELOW, and that is going to damage the car. 




*Damage to Front Left Corner of Car (Inside)*

*Damage to Front Left Corner of Car (Outside) Note that there are TWO missing plugs in the bottom of this car - possibly pulled out by a flatbed tow truck operator, but more likely a result of the driver driving over a curb, or careless use of a hydraulic lift. Look at the extent of the damage to the underbody.*

*Damage to Rear Left Corner of Car (Outside)*
_Note that this car had been towed (transported) quite a long distance on a flatbed, this likely accounts for the deformation of the lifting point - probably a chain was attached there._


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

BustaCuts said:


> oh boy, looks like i am in the same boat.
> 
> so when i show up to the dealership tomorrow, i will be telling them this:
> 1. the sunroof drains are clogged. they need to be cleared, and nipples snipped to prevent this from happening again.
> 2. most likely shorted out the KESSY module, which will need to be replaced.  have them seal it in a bag to prevent this from happening again.


 Chris: 

I suggest you don't say what you are planning to say, because the logic is fallacious. 

The only way a sunroof drain could cause water to get into a footwell (any of the four footwells) would be if the drain hose disconnected from the drain nipple. There are posts here in the forum (listed in the FAQ) that discuss water infiltration and what the possible causes may be. If the sunroof drain is simply plugged (and not disconnected), you will hear water sloshing around in the roof above you. 

I live on Vancouver Island, on the Pacific Coast, in a coastal rainforest. It's like living in a friggin' carwash out here. My sunroof drains plug up every year or two (as a result of rain, moss, pine needles, etc.), and I have never encountered any water infiltration into the cabin... I always hear the water sloshing around above me in the sunroof enclosure. The fix is simple, as detailed in the link below - just remove the air plenum cover, reach in, massage the rubber nipples (yeah, I know, it sounds funny), and wait for the water to come shooting out. Then, run some clear water through the system to flush out the rest of the debris, and put everything back together. 

Water damage to the KESSY is almost always caused by physical damage to the underside of the vehicle, and/or missing rubber covers on the various holes on the underside of the vehicle that are there for assembly purposes (all cars have such holes). 

Below are some pictures that show the various plugs in the bottom of the Phaeton, and a listing of the part numbers for the plugs. These plugs cost about $1 each. They need to be sprayed with liquid wax, then installed, then the exterior sprayed with liquid wax again... that is how the factory seals the bottom of the car up. 

Here are some links that will give you further information about the subject: 

Water in Cabin Footwell (Cleaning Air Intake Plenum and Sunroof Drains) 
....Water in Cabin Footwell (Leakage via Electrical Box in air intake plenum) 

Sunroof - adjusting the glass panel to fit flush with the roof 

Towing - How to tow a Phaeton (it must be transported on a flatbed car carrier) 

Lifting the Phaeton on a Hydraulic Lift - Precautions 

finally, see this post to get further information about the wax spray used to seal up underbody plugs when you replace missing or damaged plugs: 

Corrosion Prevention Precautions when removing and replacing Phaeton wheels 

*General overview of Phaeton Underbody* 
Arrows indicate where to lift the car 









*Additional views of the underbody, showing plugs* 
These photos also shows why the holes are there in the first place... they are essential for manufacturing. 


















*Part Numbers for Underbody Plugs* 









Regards, 

Michael


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Hi Michael, 

thank you so VERY much for your continued ability to answer questions that even VW baulk at! I suppose that I am lucky in not having encountered some of these situations (at least with my Phaeton). 
I am sure however that ALL members of this forum should count themselves VERY lucky to be able to benefit from your knowledge! 
Now, when can you pop over to Blighty and service the old girl? 

Many thanks 
Stu (on behalf of all forum members)


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## BustaCuts (Mar 11, 2007)

thank you for all the extra information michael. i really appreciate it. 

-chris


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Thank you for setting the record straight*

Michael,
let me join the other forum friends in thanking you for setting the record straight on this matter, and also for highlighting the importance of checking the rubber plugs from time to time and keeping some extras handy. A little over a year ago while the car was on the lift I noticed that one of the rear oval ones was missing and ordered a full set: this is a very inexpensive item and worth keeping handy. I especially appreciate your posting the parts numbers, as it there was some confusion when I first ordered them.
Your vast knowledge of this car, and the manner in which you share it, are greatly appreciated!
Stefano


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

EnglishPhaeton said:


> Now, when can you pop over to Blighty and service the old girl?


Hi Stu:

Uh, well...

I'm on Vancouver Island today. I'll be in Toronto Saturday, Zürich Monday and Tuesday of next week, Vienna Wednesday, then in the Maldives for the month of April. Uganda for the first week of May, and Peru for the last couple of weeks of May (now you know why I only put 900 km a year on my car...). So, if you're going to be in any of those places, maybe we can meet up for a coffee. 

Thanks to you, Chris, and Stefano for your kind words. Way, way back in 2004 and 2005, when the Phaeton was not getting a lot of support in North America, I was fortunate enough to be passing through Dresden on a fairly regular basis, and I got to know many people at the Phaeton assembly plant. VW headquarters (Germany) and the folks at the Transparent Factory in Dresden have always provided superb technical support for the car. The hitch is that they only provide support directly to the 'importers' - VW of America, VW UK, etc., not directly to the owners, except in the country Germany. Some importers, such as VW of America, are not importing the car anymore, and as a result, the level of expertise available to the end user (from the importer) has declined a little bit.

Anyway, because I like my car and intend to keep it for quite a while (it's not like I am going to wear it out at the rate I am driving it... heck, I spend more money on oil changes each year than I do on fuel), I'm happy to stay active in the forum and help out when I can.

We have a nice group of people here - everyone is always willing to help out everyone else, especially the newcomers - and the forum runs on a first-name basis, which is also very pleasant. 

Michael


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

PanEuropean said:


> Hi Stu:
> 
> Uh, well...
> 
> ...


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## BustaCuts (Mar 11, 2007)

well, after two days of being neglected at oakland vw, they finally took a look at my car today. they suggest turning it into my insurance under water damage and suggest totalling it out. first i need to see if i have that insuarnace coverage. they think something fried due to water damage, but are not sure what. they want to charge me $600 to take off the headliner to see where the leak originated. 

anyone want to buy my ride? lol


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## EnglishPhaeton (Dec 6, 2010)

Iain,

did you get sorted? I keep looking for the update with fingers crossed!

Stu


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## BustaCuts (Mar 11, 2007)

update on mine.

yesterday, my claims adjuster was set to total mine out. today, his supervisor decided it would be best to look deeper into the damage the water leak has done. 

fingers crossed they can get this all sorted out. 

-chris


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

PanEuropean said:


> The cause of water accumulating under the carpet and damaging the Access and Start Controller (the KESSY) is *NOT *infiltration of water from leaving a window open or leaving a sunroof open. The floor covering (carpet) in the footwells of the vehicle is waterproof - you can fill it up with about 4 or 5 inches of water, and that water will not permeate further down than the base of the fabric that makes up the carpet surface. If the carpet surface has been punctured, the water will not permeate down to the floorpan through the 6 inches or so of foam underneath the carpet, because the foam is closed-cell foam.
> 
> Water infiltration into the area between the floorpan and the carpet comes from *BELOW *the car, almost always as a result of damage caused to the underbody of the car either as a result of lifting the car incorrectly, or tow truck drivers popping out floor plan plugs to chain a vehicle down on a flatbed transporter, or by the driver running the car body over objects such as curb stops. This has been extensively discussed and documented on this forum before - in fact, there is even a post in the Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category) that addresses this exact problem, and shows a damaged KESSY controller:
> 
> ...


Hi Michael and other moderators,

While trying to help out "Comfortably numb" by having him check out the integrity of the rubber caps under the car, I found out that there was no link in the TOC on this specific topic (or at least I could not find it)...

Maybe this thread could serve to make newcomers understand what the issue is ? (and therefore, could you add it to the TOC under some understandable title possibly including the words Kessy, underbody plugs, water ingress, ...)

P.


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

PanEuropean said:


> The cause of water accumulating under the carpet and damaging the Access and Start Controller (the KESSY) is *NOT *infiltration of water from leaving a window open or leaving a sunroof open. The floor covering (carpet) in the footwells of the vehicle is waterproof - you can fill it up with about 4 or 5 inches of water, and that water will not permeate further down than the base of the fabric that makes up the carpet surface. If the carpet surface has been punctured, the water will not permeate down to the floorpan through the 6 inches or so of foam underneath the carpet, because the foam is closed-cell foam.
> 
> Water infiltration into the area between the floorpan and the carpet comes from *BELOW *the car, almost always as a result of damage caused to the underbody of the car either as a result of lifting the car incorrectly, or tow truck drivers popping out floor plan plugs to chain a vehicle down on a flatbed transporter, or by the driver running the car body over objects such as curb stops.
> 
> Michael, I want to state that I agree that the foam is closed cell as I too had water that entered my 05 and found both front footwells with water levels of a half inch or so. Even though I was utilizing the gummi mats, the water had seeped over the hold downs and behind the mats saturating the carpets. I removed the mats and used a wet-vac to remove almost all traces of the water. I continue to pray I have no issues with the Kessy. I cleaned many leaves and debris from under the cowl "screen". I also cleared the drains of the front sunroof drains by "snaking a speedometer cable with a small plastic ball attached the the end. My sunroof drains were also clogged as no water drained until I massaged the nipples and the ball poked thru. However the only item I did not find was any water entry from below the car. No damage anywhere, all plugs sealed. I think every owner should clear those two areas annually. As always, thanks for the help you've provided over the years.


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