# SAI delete?



## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

yesterday, i was bored, and i found this: 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5406184-DIY-SAI-Delete-on-CBFA-Engine 

its simple enough, and i was thinking that INA could make the little plates. 

SAI is Secondary Air Injection, which in truth is a little pump that shoots air into the exhaust to help make a fuller combustion. 

TeamZleep removed his SAI and C2 coded it out. so we know it can be done... properly. 

also, some or a lot of the TSI guys are now doing it, and all they have to report is a CEL. no rough running or anything, asides from fail inspections. 

so, should WE (2.5L) remove our SAI? 
cleaner bay, less isht around. 

edit: 

extra info: 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5243681-Take-that-SAI


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## vwluger22 (Jan 25, 2005)

I have a vw tech friend and he keeps telling me that vw makes those block of plates for the 2.5.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

the question is should we do it?


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## vwluger22 (Jan 25, 2005)

:laugh: I missed that part. 

If it would stop my car from revving up for a min or so every morning when I start it then yes I probably would. If I was to put a turbo back there then yes I would do what I could to remove it and "clean" things up. But this all depends on if someone can make that little check engine light go away because most importantly my car needs to pass inspection so I can drive it. 

Would it cause more wear on other parts because it isnt there idk like the cat? From what I understand it is only used when the car is first started to help warm up the cat and burn extra fuel.


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## HelloMyNameIs (Aug 2, 2011)

My understanding is that it is purely for emissions purposes (to very quickly bring the cat to operating temperature so it can function properly). If that's the case then I'd imagine the only side effect would be poor emissions initially until the cat heats up from normal driving. 

I was thinking about this when I got my intake...I occasionally get looks when the car first starts. Sounds like jet engine :S


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

HelloMyNameIs said:


> My understanding is that it is purely for emissions purposes (to very quickly bring the cat to operating temperature so it can function properly). If that's the case then I'd imagine the only side effect would be poor emissions initially until the cat heats up from normal driving.
> 
> I was thinking about this when I got my intake...I occasionally get looks when the car first starts. Sounds like jet engine :S


 so, you removed it?


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Hi guys, 

We've had these available for 2.5L for quite a while now... We were actually considering discontinuing them as sales on them have been pretty dismal. 

Anyways, the only side effects are poorer emissions on cold start (cat does not heat up as fast), a cleaner engine bay, and questionable legality. 

On the 2.5L it gets rid of a fair bit of stuff due to the fact that the SAI feeds from both sides of the head, etc. 

Here's the appropriate plates: 

http://www.intengineering.com/IE-25l-5-Cylinder-SAI-p9407849.html :thumbup:


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## LampyB (Apr 2, 2007)

if i could get rid of the CEL from Jeff @ United Motorsports I'd definitely consider doing this. The 1.8T Audi guys have been doing this for at least a couple of years without issue. Really cleans up the engine bay nicely. 

here's the link to the DIY on Audizine for the B6 A4 1.8T 

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...e-removal-simplification?highlight=sai+delete


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

this is what got me going. 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5243681-Take-that-SAI.


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## 2tnicrbbt (Jun 27, 2010)

interesting!


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## TylerO28 (Jul 7, 2008)

I have the block off plate and am considering removing it... I know that jeff will remove it for me... The block off plate is so simple...but all of my piping for the turbo has the lines accounted for so i'd have to get those welded shut... Emissions compliance is kind of an issue as well....thats why I did this though cuz if its gonna be there it can at least be kinda pretty


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## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

I would've pulled the SAI if I still lived in Michigan. No emissions, or inspection up north. 
I'm in North Carolina now and I'm not sure what they check during inspection and to what extent they go to to check for alterations to my car. 
I haven't even registered my car to this state yet because I don't want to deal with it yet.


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## Fantomasz (Aug 15, 2001)

vwluger22 said:


> If it would stop my car from revving up for a min or so every morning when I start it then yes .


 x2 
I don't like cold starts on this engine


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## vwluger22 (Jan 25, 2005)

Funny thing is my car doesn't do it as much in the winter but every summer morning it will fire right up.


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## TeamZleep (Aug 28, 2007)

TylerO28 said:


> I have the block off plate and am considering removing it... I know that jeff will remove it for me... The block off plate is so simple...but all of my piping for the turbo has the lines accounted for so i'd have to get those welded shut... Emissions compliance is kind of an issue as well....thats why I did this though cuz if its gonna be there it can at least be kinda pretty


 You shined my old SAI up SOOOO WELLLLL!!!!!  


You can't just yank/block it off... Something about the SAI being a part of the o2 system. You need the coding for it to work right, and not throw the o2 sensors in a loop. I'll probably do it again if I ever feel the need to do anything performance wise. :thumbup: 

Oh, Integrated... How much are your block off plates?? I'm getting one just in case you guys stop selling them.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

everyone says that yes, you can block it off, but you'll get a cel... nothing else...


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## TeamZleep (Aug 28, 2007)

*FV-QR*

Talk to NLS...


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## TeamZleep (Aug 28, 2007)

*FV-QR*

Maybe an N/A will have better luck, but my Turbo ran funny without it. 

Tyler could slap on the blockoff plate, unplug the SAI pump, block off the SAI tube on the intake and run around for a day and post results!


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## TylerO28 (Jul 7, 2008)

I'm thinking thats an option... I will try it... Was considering just having jeff code it out from the get go


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

tylero28 said:


> i'm thinking thats an option... I will try it... Was considering just having jeff code it out from the get go


 do it. :d


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## vwluger22 (Jan 25, 2005)

TeamZleep said:


> Maybe an N/A will have better luck, but my Turbo ran funny without it.


 Did it run funny before and after coding?


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## TeamZleep (Aug 28, 2007)

*FV-QR*

I never got it coded out actually. After getting the quote for the code I just shrugged my shoulders and tossed it back on. It's a pump, a solenoid, and two hoses... Not worth $400 in coding for me. :/


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

TeamZleep said:


> Talk to NLS...


:wave:
-we did it long ago in mine.
-C2 can flash it out. 
-does NOTHING for perfromance at all
-will STILL rev up for high idle on start up with the parts on or off- is part of the 02 system and CAN NOT be removed totally in programing
-we also have block off plates for this $30 shipped (2 plate kit)


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## define your self (May 23, 2009)

so if there is no performance gains of the sort why would one want to delete it? sorry guys tryin to learn


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

none, zero, zip, nadda, nope, no way, negitive, sorry...no gains, just pretty


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## define your self (May 23, 2009)

i see thanks NLS


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## TeamZleep (Aug 28, 2007)

*FV-QR*

Yup. Just to clean two hoses, one pump (that isn't visible), and one solenoid out of the engine bay. If you're building a full blown track car/show car, then I agree with it. If not? 


Meh. Just leave it there. :beer:


NLS, It's good to know you guys have the blockoff plates too!


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## TylerO28 (Jul 7, 2008)

So today I'm going to remote mount mine... Using the c2 bracket, i am hoping to get it tucked away some how... I'm considering down on the passenger side near the firewall, then running the hose on the side and under the intake manifold...I'll post pics after I figure it all out...getting married on sunday...wish me luck!


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## Brabbit32 (Apr 13, 2009)

i Deleted my SAI, actually got a set of integrated's block off plates. There beautiful pieces, but you cant see them since there on the back of the motor lol. Jeff Attwood is writing it out of my ecu for me, as well as my rear 02 sensors and EGR.


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## rags2riches (Jan 2, 2010)

define your self said:


> so if there is no performance gains of the sort why would one want to delete it? sorry guys tryin to learn


One thing I can tell you about the SAI delete is that it can save you some money in the long run. I have a 1.8t beetle and the SAI in that thing sucks. It was always throwing a MIL light for poor airflow. First it was the bolts on the outside of the pump splitting allowing air to escape the system. New pump $500. Then it was the Kombi Valve as is known as in the VW crowd. That was another $300. Then after all that on of the air hoses cracked and had to be found and replaced. At the stealership that entails replace every hose one by one till you find the problem. $180. I am well over what it would have cost me to block it off and have it tuned out. I ended up with the block off plate. I don't know as much about the five-pot but if it's similar to the 1.8t then you're better off doing it now then after all the unneeded minor fixes here and there. My beetle passes PA emissions with the SAI delete so really what do you have to lose?


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## _V-Dubber_ (Jan 30, 2007)

I did this 2 years ago. I was going to get a set of the blockoff plates made by Seamless but I had a pair made for half the price and Jeff, when he was still at C2, recoded the ECU to run without SAI/EGR in the program we wrote for my build. Actually, its more of an ECU "block." There is no performance gain and I didnt do it to clean up the engine bay. I dont have a cat on that car so basically the whole SAI system was pointless and I had it removed. The car is running about a MILLION blocks in the ECU coding but I've never gotten a check engine light. Despite the block, the engine still idles high at cold start up. It will always do this no matter what. It's written into the base file. Make sure you get recoded or run a block like I did if you decide to do this or you WILL get a MIL. Now I was able to do all this because at the time we tore apart the entire engine and Jeff spent 9months writing a new base file from the ground up. But if you just have simple bolt-ons, this is a complicated and expensive mod that has no performance gain. And you should NOT do this if you still plan on running a cat on your car. If you delete the SAI/EGR system but still have a cat, basically you're just going to ruin the convertor. You should only be doing this if you're running a test pipe like myself. However, thats very illegal. But then again, I dont really think you care if its legal....right? :laugh:


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## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

Just relocate it and run the hoses down lower


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## TylerO28 (Jul 7, 2008)

Thats my plan, I'm thinking tucked under on the passenger side firewall it'll be out of the way, and unobtrusive. I really dont mind it, but more than anything I hate the hoses going every direction under hood.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

i might be deleting my sai sooner than later... i'll keep you guys posted


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## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

Noones really mentioned this yet but there actually is a very small performance aspect of removing the SAI system. The pump itself is kinda heavy, Id guess around 15-20 pounds. Removing it and all the hoses etc. would actually shave a decent amount of weight off the the front of the car and also clean up the engine bay a bit as others have mentioned. Will you actually notice that weight decrease? Probably not, but if youre trying to cut weight off the car in multiple places then this is just another step in doing that. Delete the SAI system, get a lightweight battery, a lighter exhaust system, a testpipe, and a CF hood (and hatch if you really want to) and youd be looking at around 100 pounds off the car. That will make a difference in performance since our cars are already on the heavy side. Just something to think about.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

*there is ZERO perfromance gain.* 
and ALL the wieght lost is 7.4 lbs. thats deleteing the pump, bracket, tubes, kombi valve, cross tube etc 

the only reason to do it is either ...to just do it! or to clean up a bay.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

I'm going to be deleting the sai for 2 reasons: 
- I broke the connector by mistake, so I can't plug it back... 
- I like a cleaner bay...


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

2 good reasons....


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

lol, yes... option 3 would be to buy a new connector from the dealership... but nah, just might as well delete it now. 

i think that by next weekend, it should be gone.


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

Look at where VW placed the battery. Any weight off the nose of this car is good. Remote battery and SAI pump together prob weight about what a turbo setup adds in front of the front axle. I think this is a worth while mod but maybe that's just me. 

When the MKV revs up on cold starts, it is spraying the injectors wide open to get gas into the cat so that it will burn there. Burning gas in the cat heats it up faster to optimal efficiency. 

If you deleted your cat already, the injectors still spray open but are just spitting gas out your tail pipe so you might as well delete the additional air supply/pump too.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

relocating the battery its a great mod. its funny how the car actually FEELS lighter with the battery on the trunk. 

on my build thread i have some info about this....


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

thygreyt said:


> relocating the battery its a great mod. its funny how the car actually FEELS lighter with the battery on the trunk.
> 
> on my build thread i have some info about this....


 
Yeah I wanted a thick rear sway bar, but then I put a class I hitch and relocated the battery. Amazing how much a little better weight distribution and stiffening up the rear "box" of the car can change handling. It is pretty much completely neutral now on stock suspension. No more understeer! No need for sway bar! 

Gutted rabbit w/200lbs added to the trunk? That's some good weight distribution.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

forgive my ignorance, but why do we need 2 plates?? 

1 goes where the say was (on the block, next to the exhaust mani) what about the 2nd plate?


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

one on the d/s of the head and one on the p/s. 
you need 2


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

can the idiot light be coded out for 09+? That is to say, HAS IT BEEN YET? If I knew this was only $50 and only caused a dash light, it would have been done a long time ago. Just got fired yesterday though, starting new job in a few weeks anyway.... Will totally be ordering these then, no lie. 

I'll just stick a piece of black tape "over" the light until its coded out (blocked) or burns out :laugh: This can't be blocked with my vag com?


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> We've had these available for 2.5L for quite a while now... We were actually considering discontinuing them as sales on them have been pretty dismal.
> 
> ...


 Hi, sry. Didn't even know these exist or that the procedure of removing the smog pump was this simple. I will be ordering a set as soon as I can. I want to delete the ugly emissions equipment that doesn't do anything. How long will the catalytic converter withstand the change before it gets disfunctional? Does removing the pump have any effect on the o2 sensors getting fouled out or anything like that by the warm up process?


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

SAI delete plate kit for 2.5L tested and fitted on 06, 07, 08 cars so far. not on 09+ BUT 99.999% sure its all the same. 

*$30 SHIPPED for the kit in the usa* 









_slotted to fit 2 differnt komi valves. uses factory gaskets and hardware._


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> one on the d/s of the head and one on the p/s.
> you need 2


 D/S and P/S stand for?


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

NLS, 

Send me the kit for free and I'll tell you if it fits on 09+  

Thygrey, passenger side and driver side.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

send me $30 for free and i'll tell you if your cash is real or not  

d/s= driver side 
p/s passenger side


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

or i could just send you fake cash. that way we both get something for free 

i'll trade you a torn down 16v 2.0 w/1.8 cylinder head. you pick up  no lie! do u go to the indy motorspeedway? can get u in free... can work a deal come on mang =)


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

no thanks.


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

haha ok. 

anyway ty for making these plates guys. sry to hear nobody is buying many from IE, please don't discontinue them... they're so expensive to get custom made! 

if i didn't get suspended from work last night i would already have ordered a set.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

we won't stop. we figured out how to make them fit many differnt cars for a few differnt things


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## tay272 (Aug 22, 2007)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> *there is ZERO perfromance gain.*
> and ALL the wieght lost is 7.4 lbs. thats deleteing the pump, bracket, tubes, kombi valve, cross tube etc
> 
> the only reason to do it is either ...to just do it! or to clean up a bay.


 Alright so I was alittle off on the weight but like I said, it would be minimal weight reduction and you wouldnt notice it by itself. Im just saying if youre thinking about weight reduction, every little bit helps and it would add up with other bits that are taken off the car. By itself its pretty much only to clean up the bay and get rid of some hoses like you said.


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## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

So what does coding out the SAI system cost? All said and done...


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

talk to C2. i don't know off hand.


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## kevin splits (Aug 23, 2010)

Ok Ill shoot them a pm when I get a chance


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

7.4lbs off the nose of the car, practically forward of the axle, is pretty freaking good imo for a $50 plate. relocating the battery is another savings of a ton. added all up it really does start to make a difference especially off anywhere near or forward of the front axle. 

think of it as 7.4lbs less weight after you've added over 7lbs in piping, intercooler, oil cooler, etc etc all forward as heck and the turbo pretty much cancels out the battery relocation. 

all these lbs we're talking about are dense materials that get heat soaked too. so less heat soak is always a better thing. especially off the line or at the track.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

on the SAI removal. 

i have 2 codes so far. nothing to worry about 









it gets a lil rich on star ups. 









once warm it goes back to normal 









i havent yet gotten my block off plates... but the SAI is disconnected, and so are the hoses. but the thing is just physically there... for now.


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## CmteFabio (Jun 7, 2010)

Hi, my name is Fabio, I'm from Brazil and I want help.
My car is 2010 Jetta 2.5 with MAP system.
Since one year old the car start a apperas a MIL light, in the first time was dianogsted a SAI sensor fail, was changed a light was off.
Three months later same thing, change again.
Today, three months later again and the MIL light appears again in the same circunstances.
I will scanner and, if the DTC was the same the other times, I will change the SAI sensor for myself for the third time.
I can't handle anymore spending money with a system that works only on a cold start.
So, my question is, there some kind of programation on VCDS for the system doesn't make the MIL light turns on? I don't wanna take off all system, but I want system not operational.
In the city I live theres emissions verification every year, only with the engine hot, but the MIL light makes the car not pass.
Theres a way to do this?
Thanks in advance.
Fabio.


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## TeamZleep (Aug 28, 2007)

*FV-QR*

Greyt, what codes did you get? I'm super curious.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

TeamZleep said:


> Greyt, what codes did you get? I'm super curious.


pmed


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

just a note:

i was reading the Bentley manual (for fun) and i discovered that the SAI system is different on 09+ engines.

to be more specific:

BGP, BGQ, CBUA have a different SAI system.

thr tube that you are seeing along the coolant tube connects to the P/S on the cylinder head.









on the CBTA (09+ engine) the say is different: since the SAI connects at the cylinder head (or block) and has a hose to a motor under the Throttle body, and then another hose to the intake. So, for me, i think i'd only need 1 plate to cover the sai.










i guess this sort of helps explain more differences on the engines, and why different side effects.


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## TylerO28 (Jul 7, 2008)

Yup. My motor has 2 locations. newer ones have one and they have a little map sensor in the long hose where as mine does not


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

TylerO28 said:


> Yup. My motor has 2 locations. newer ones have one and they have a little map sensor in the long hose where as mine does not


i "removed" that sensor. its the cause of 1 of the 2 codes... the other code is for the sai itself


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## RedRumGTI (Dec 6, 2003)

I asked Chris at c2 a while back about coding out the sai and he said they don't offer that anymore because of legal issues


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## TeamZleep (Aug 28, 2007)

*FV-QR*

Chris was going to do mine... ????


My SAI has only one port on the driver's side of the engine, no map sensor, nada. Just that one port, and the one on the intake. So essentially I'd get a code for the pump, and the SAI housing not being plugged in. Since I'm going to be inspected yearly now (  ) I'll probably just leave it unless I can block it from tossing CEL's.


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

Bummer. Its kind of illegal to do a lot of things we do. Good to know the tuners are on board and willing to make it happen! :facepalm:


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

tuners can only do so much when the goverment is involved....


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## pennsydubbin (Mar 3, 2010)

too much government control :thumbdown:


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## spdfrek (Feb 28, 2002)

But if they sold the software "for offroad use only" then everyone is happy.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

thats not the issue....unless you don't want you car to pass emissions. cali, ny and nj now have a differnt test. doesn't just check readiness as before. it test readiness AND supported. which it has to be there....


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

but if you live in florida, where inspection is a myth...


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

can't make a product for one state....


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## TrillyPop (Jan 27, 2010)

NLS - can I still get one of the SAI block-off plates? let me know, thanks.


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## spdfrek (Feb 28, 2002)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> can't make a product for one state....


again I say



spdfrek said:


> But if they sold the software "for offroad use only" then everyone is happy.


just like test pipes


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

Yup. You need 2 correct?


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