# 2.0 aba turbo



## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

i am having a problem with what sounds like and seems like compressor surge on my 2.0 turbo. my set up consits of 2.5 inch piping , gt3071r turbo, 38 mm wategate 5lb spring, tt 268 cam, also running lugtroic as a tune for me car with 630 injectors. The car surges in 3rd 4th and 5th only when boosting. i can bang threw 1st and 2nd boosting just fine.i check for boost leakes and the whole nine . I started with stock 1.8t DV and it started surging so i decided to swap to a greddy bov and even after ajusting everything is surges. looking for advice and some direction on how to solve this problem


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

bump


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## rabbitchaser (Sep 20, 2004)

sounds like its time for head work to get the air into the engine instead of backing up on the turbo.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

So far the only thing I have done is 1mm overside intak and exhaust valve. I am running a split cam as well do u think that would cause a problem,being that either the intake or the exhaust valves open more.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

i am running a tt 268/260 cam so my intake is bigger then my exhaust, could this be my problem.


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## jettatech (Oct 26, 2001)

i had an airfilter do this to me years ago.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

by surging do you mean like bucking as it starts to build boost? or actually making the chirping surge sound?

Sometimes this can be caused by a by pass valve opening to early as you are trying to build boost.... and this happens at WOT? or part?

What intake manifold are you using? what TB? where is your BOV vac lines hooked up too?
Are you 100% sure about your boost level (do you have an accurate gauge?), where is the wastegate boost source?

I'm almost thinking you have another problem, its almost impossible (seemingly) to surge at 5psi from that turbo especially with head work.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

no i hasent bucked it just flutters alot in trying to build boost. but its only in 3 ,4,5 gears and only after if i try to bang the gears. Intake manifold i am running a short run, stock TB,my BOV is hooked up to my lines that come from my FPR which is also taped into my lugtroic map sensor. Yes the guage is correct, and i am running a 38 mmWG on a kinetic turbo manifold so its right under the turbo. I also dont really have head work, just a obd1 head with 1mm oversides Intake and exhasut valves. pleas help :beer:


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## JakRabit (Aug 8, 2003)

Show pics of the setup maybe I can help


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)




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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

Where are you hiding your bypass valve?
How large is the Vac line going to it? How long is it? (its hooked up to you manifold right?, post TB?) 

I apologize for any 'stupid' or simple questions that may be assumed by anyone with any FI knowledge, but with such a strange issue trying not to overlook the obvious.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

bypasss valve( you mean BOV?) the vac line is pretty small it fits tight on the nipple. length should be bout 4 inches or so. its is attached to the vac line that comes out of the TB that is also attached to map sensor, so it just post TB but attached the TB.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

up


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## weejunGL (Feb 2, 2005)

steven12345 said:


> bypasss valve( you mean BOV?) the vac line is pretty small it fits tight on the nipple. length should be bout 4 inches or so. its is attached to the vac line that comes out of the TB that is also attached to map sensor, so it just post TB but attached the TB.


mapsensor should have its own feed 

and is the vacuum nipple before or AFTER the butterfly valve?

it should be after. so vacuum can open the bov.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

Yes it after the butterfly valve and I am gonna try giving the map sensor its own line


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

Up


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

weejunGL said:


> mapsensor should have its own feed


Always, shouldn't have anything to do with your problem I would think but just FYI... and bypass valve is just a generic term for either BOV or DV.
Just out of curiosity, what is your vacuum at idle?


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## JakRabit (Aug 8, 2003)

Could be a fueling issue , when is the last time you changed the fuel filter and what pump is in the car.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

vac at idle is at 20psi,brand new fuel filter, and running a stock fuel pump with a walboro inline pump as well


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

my wideband also is telling me my fueling is pretty good as well, in 3rd gear where i am having problem at wot its really rich, donno if a fueling problem or just running really rich casue i am at wot or if something is messed up


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

OK, just to be 100% certain, you can do a full 3rd gear pull til redline, let off and no surge?
If this is possible, there has to be something else, because if there is something mechanical wrong with the system, it should surge no matter what. :screwy: You're problem is screwing with my head :banghead:


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Tighten the screw on the BOV. Sounds like the BOV valve is lifting under boost. If you're using a GReddy then it should have a screw on top. What is your boost levels? Or are you running off the WG?

Edit: damn...630's on a ABA....:thumbup:


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

Your head! Its been pissing me off for a few months.I can ease into 3rd and boosts just fine but 4th and 5th it flutters its way up to 5psi


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

Iv played with the bov tighting with both springs installed, tried with one spring all diffrent tightness aand still have the same problem. My boost level for now is only 5psi till I figure this out so I don't blow stuff up. But yes I am running a external wg 38mm


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Then there's something wrong with your BOV or the BOV vac line. Either the seal or the signal. Sounds like the valve isn't staying shut. So when it builds boost, it's leaking causing the valve to jump up & down. There are only 2 things that could cause this. Maybe to much adjusting on the screw messed it up. It does happen. That's why i don't touch mine.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> Then there's something wrong with your BOV or the BOV vac line. Either the seal or the signal. Sounds like the valve isn't staying shut. So when it builds boost, it's leaking causing the valve to jump up & down. There are only 2 things that could cause this. Maybe to much adjusting on the screw messed it up. It does happen. That's why i don't touch mine.


What's strange is he had a 1.8T DV as well...... measure the vacuum from the signal line that you currently have for the bypass valve at idle.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Are you sure the vac lines are correct? BOV getting a direct signal from the intake. If it's fluttering & you changed it to a BOV (from a DV) then i would recheck the vac. lines.


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## ziddey (Apr 16, 2006)

what rpm, load (WOT?), and boost are you experiencing surge in 3rd/4th/5th? where do you have your reference boost for your boost controller? directly at the turbo? sorry, guess i should just look at your pictures.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

i need to try and get a video somehow. but the way it feels when u boost from 2nd to3rd kinda feels like if u where to accicdentaly shift from like 1st to 5th with a the bov fluttering.thats the best way i could describe it, now if i where to boost in 2nd and like pause into 3rd it will boost fine sometimes. on the highway any kinda boost in 4 and 5 it just flutters and drags it way up to boost.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

I think we understand what it's doing. I think it balls down to the BOV. 

How is your vacuum lines? Where are they routed?


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

Is your WG signal straight from the compressor?


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

wastegate is off my TB nipple. the lines are fine altou i have alot of 3 way tees to distrubute my vaccume to everything that needs it


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## scooter1.8T (Feb 5, 2008)

The bypass valve should not cause the turbo to surge under load its to prevent turbo surge when you let off the throttle. If you were under boost and let off and you have turbo surge i would say you have a bypass valve problem. I would start with the air filter as someone above said possibly to restricted under load.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

ight let me get this clear the BOV should stay cloesed during idle during normal drving and under boost untill you shift does it open to relave presure in the pipes right.


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## ziddey (Apr 16, 2006)

Alright, it looks like I'm not the only one confused by your terminology. Again, what do you mean by surge? It sounds like you're NOT talking about compressor surge, but rather unstable boost (i.e. wastegate opening and closing in rapid succession, or bov opening and closing)?

A BOV should not flutter. If you're hearing "flutter" that's compressor surge. Now that I see, that post, I'm confused again what you're talking about.

No, a BOV, DV, what have you, is NOT supposed to open except when you let off the throttle.

Move the wastegate signal directly to the compressor port instead of your intake manifold. Yes, if you're using an EBC or whatever, your actual boost may be off compared to what's being requested, depending on your restrictions (IC, etc), but at the same time, it'll remove restrictions from causes of compressor surge. Although at high load low rpm fully spooled situations to experience surge, you should be seeing high boost at the manifold anyway.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Like this?






And here's the answer to your problem 


> If you are ever WOT and you hear a flutter, THAT, is VERY BAD. It doesn't even have to do with a BOV, as your BOV should be shut during boost, so how is a BOV causing a surge? It means your A/R is too small for the boost you are running (very unlikely as you engine will most likely blow up before this from the hot air), but most likely, your had some dirt or something that over time rounded off/clipped your compressor blade and the 'seal' (blade tip to housing clearance/tolerance) isn't as good and the blade beats/slaps the air vs., pushing it. Like if you cut the compressor blade in half, it would give you a little bit of boost at first, but then it would lose efficiency VERY fast and then it would slap the air, vs. compress and push it. It is not that 'bad' for your engine or turbo... as you turbo is already F'd lol. So it is bad news, and not good to hear, but you’re not damaging anything when you hear flutter/surge under WOT.


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

Another write up...


> This type of surge is quite damaging as your turbo is UNDER exhaust gas pressure to build boost. The cause of the problem is the same, your turbo is moving too much air for your system to handle.
> 
> This has several causes such as:
> 1) Oversized turbo or wheel trim
> ...


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

ziddey said:


> Alright, it looks like I'm not the only one confused by your terminology. Again, what do you mean by surge? It sounds like you're NOT talking about compressor surge, but rather unstable boost (i.e. wastegate opening and closing in rapid succession, or bov opening and closing)?
> 
> A BOV should not flutter. If you're hearing "flutter" that's compressor surge. Now that I see, that post, I'm confused again what you're talking about.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

I've never ran a vac line from the WG to the intake.  That ruins your WG diaphragm. It should go from the side port to the Comp. housing. Top port is only for EBC. MBC t's between the WG & Comp. housing line.


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## papo98jetta (Dec 10, 2008)

Pull apart the bov a check how its sealing inside. Mine fluttered a lot because it had a hole in the rubber inside.

Sent using HTC EVO with tapatalk.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

well i rerouted all my vac lines, even bought that tap thats taps the coupling before the turbo to run to my wastegate, gave my map sensor its own line. also removed the air filter, iv taken the BOV apart a few times no major holes that i seen maybe there a few pin holes or something i did pick it up used from someone.But the problem is still ongoing


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

Did you inspect the compressor to be sure its not damaged? 
We're running out of options it seems. Nothing clogging your IC or pipes? 

You sir have a mystery :screwy:


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

Yea looked the turbo over. Plus the turbo is partctically new maybe I hvae 500 miles on it if anything, and na all the intercooler pipeing is fine. I think its gonna come down to pullling the whole motor and everything out and reinstalling it all over again


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## kevinescobar15 (Apr 27, 2010)

how much boost are you seeing in 3rd/4th/5th? it might be that you have a boost leak also.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

well in 1 and 2 i see only 5 psi casue thats what my wastegate is set at. in 3rd it will only boost if i kinda pause going into 3rd and 4th and 5th it boosts to 5 psi but flutters all the way. also iv checked and dounble checked and even triple checked for boost leaks. its all sealed up


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## Sparknock (Feb 25, 2004)

steven12345 said:


> i am having a problem with what sounds like and seems like compressor surge on my 2.0 turbo. my set up consits of 2.5 inch piping , gt3071r turbo, 38 mm wategate 5lb spring, tt 268 cam, also running lugtroic as a tune for me car with 630 injectors. The car surges in 3rd 4th and 5th only when boosting. i can bang threw 1st and 2nd boosting just fine.i check for boost leakes and the whole nine . I started with stock 1.8t DV and it started surging so i decided to swap to a greddy bov and even after ajusting everything is surges. looking for advice and some direction on how to solve this problem


 you said it was running rich. how rich? cause this can cause the car to bog and do the same thing. have you checked the plugs the see how they look? a spark issue could also be pressent. 
what is your ignition system comprised of? 

if you suspect that the bov is the issue remove it cap the hole and go for a drive. @ 5 psi you won't hurt the compressor wheel. 

i have seen this once but couldn't hurt to mention. the back pressure in the exhaust may be getting to hight and could lift open the wastegate.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

Sparknock said:


> if you suspect that the bov is the issue remove it cap the hole and go for a drive. @ 5 psi you won't hurt the compressor wheel.


 I'd agree @ only 5psi, I'd do this before pulling the motor out... and take your air filter off. 

... and just before anyone posts "that is a terrible idea, blah blah blah", don't listen to them, it'll be fine, this is only a short period thing on very low boost.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

But if I cap it won't that cause the turbo to surge? The plugs I haven't checked again yet. As forthe exhaust its 2.5 ich downpipe to a gutted cat to a full 2.25 tt exhaust


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

steven12345 said:


> Yea looked the turbo over. Plus the turbo is partctically new maybe I hvae 500 miles on it if anything, and na all the intercooler pipeing is fine. I think its gonna come down to pullling the whole motor and everything out and reinstalling it all over again


 I'd definitely agree with inspecting the blades again. Even if that turbo has 20 miles, it means nothing. The turbo could have eaten something at any point in time. Ask me how I know.  


GTijoejoe said:


> I'd agree @ only 5psi, I'd do this before pulling the motor out... and take your air filter off.
> 
> ... and just before anyone posts "that is a terrible idea, blah blah blah", don't listen to them, it'll be fine, this is only a short period thing on very low boost.


 Yep, it'll be harmless.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

steven12345 said:


> But if I cap it won't that cause the turbo to surge? The plugs I haven't checked again yet. As forthe exhaust its 2.5 ich downpipe to a gutted cat to a full 2.25 tt exhaust


 It will surge only off throttle after a pull. If it doesn't surge through the pull than you figured it out, just take off the vac/boost signal to the bov, tighten it all the way, try it out.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

how would this work to figure out my 2nd to 3rd gear boost problem. i can understand it for 4th and 5th. but being that i boost just fine in 2nd its just from 2nd to 3rd does it bog down take for ever to reach back up to full boost. with the bov closed wont it just cause it surge.i understand it for 4th and 5th gear


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## Sparknock (Feb 25, 2004)

do you have a wide band o2 sensor in the car? we need to know what the fueling looks like. if you are overly rich say below 10.5:1 you will have problems because there is more fuel than oxygen and the flame will extinguish due to the lack of oxygen. if it is super lean the fuel charge can light too fast and burn all the fuel giving you a real bad stumble, sparknock, and or total lack of power. 
check you oil see if it smell like fuel. if it does you are way to rich and the oil will need to be changed. 

whats the timing like in the car while in the load cells that you are in with 3 4 5 
i think part of the reaSON YOU CAN GET boost IN 1&2 gear is because they are shorter and the standalone is not using the load cell that 3 4 5 are using. you should start data loging to compair timing, rpm, fuel, map vac/pressure. all these things can cause problems if they a bit off. 
if you accelerator enrichment is to little the motor will not rev fast under load. 

did you buy the stand alone with this tune in it? 
or was this tuned on the car 
remember no 2 motors will preform the same even if they are alike in every way 
same parts same build one will work better than the other


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

Sparknock said:


> did you buy the stand alone with this tune in it?
> or was this tuned on the car
> remember no 2 motors will preform the same even if they are alike in every way
> same parts same build one will work better than the other


 I'm willing to bet he just has a conservative base map.....No one would be dumb enough to waste their time (especially Kevin) tuning a car for a measly 5psi.


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## groundupjetta (Feb 1, 2010)

Sounds like that could be the problem 

It took me a while to get my car tuned and making power the way it is now, always using the same hardware and as I worked on the tune it kept getting better and better 

Also I tried capping my bov before because I suspected there was a leak at one point and its totaly worth doing, quick and easy you wont damage anything by doing these


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

steven12345 said:


> how would this work to figure out my 2nd to 3rd gear boost problem. i can understand it for 4th and 5th. but being that i boost just fine in 2nd its just from 2nd to 3rd does it bog down take for ever to reach back up to full boost. with the bov closed wont it just cause it surge.i understand it for 4th and 5th gear


 OK, lets back up here. Didn't you explain (as I asked earlier) if you do a solid gear pull it will build boost and 'surge' even before you get to redline? It ONLY happens in between gears? 

Its super hard to understand exactly what your problem is, by now you should of tried to get a very good video of your problem to show.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

I gotta get a video but it happens between 2nd and 3rd on it way to boost and flutter when tryin to build boost in 4th and 5th


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

steven12345 said:


> I gotta get a video but it happens between 2nd and 3rd on it way to boost and flutter when tryin to build boost in 4th and 5th


 Also, can you take logs of A/F, MAP, TPS, and Ign timing during these events?


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

Can't take logs with a vag com cause of the stand alone and cause of my other problem for some reason my stand alone won't take data logs either


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

steven12345 said:


> Can't take logs with a vag com cause of the stand alone and cause of my other problem for some reason my stand alone won't take data logs either


 Well Mr..... you just gotta get that fixed, because for me to understand 100% it is not your tuning (or some factor messing with your tuning) I'm gunna need those logs. Is it Kevin Black? to contact...? I don't remember off hand, but I know the maker of Lugtronics is the man with helping out customers.


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## PBWB (Sep 12, 2004)

steven12345 said:


> Can't take logs with a vag com cause of the stand alone and cause of my other problem for some reason my stand alone won't take data logs either





GTijoejoe said:


> Well Mr..... you just gotta get that fixed, because for me to understand 100% it is not your tuning (or some factor messing with your tuning) I'm gunna need those logs. Is it Kevin Black? to contact...? I don't remember off hand, but I know the maker of Lugtronics is the man with helping out customers.


 Yea, that's more than likely a laptop issue.....Lugtronic VEMS most certainly can log whatever parameters you can monitor, so......Check your ports and make sure everything is straight.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

Belive me iv checked into why it won't let me log and still haven't found a solution iv tired 3 diffrent laptops, check grounds and such.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

steven12345 said:


> Belive me iv checked into why it won't let me log and still haven't found a solution iv tired 3 diffrent laptops, check grounds and such.


 Well let me be straight forward as possible. We have reviewed your setup, tried to think of any possible mechanical issues and gave some simple countermeasures. If you want to take apart your setup and rebuild it, you can, but it most likely could be a huge waste of time. You really need to verify if anything is going on with your rmanagement and/or sensors. In the end a video will help us understand exactly what you're trying to describe, but the logs by far will be the most helpful. 

We are really getting to the end of the rope in helping you... its basically a must to try and find someone who can help you get your logs setup correctly, IMO that is seriously your only next step.


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

well i have come to the conclusion that i do have a surge problem.. i was told a bigger cam might be a way to stop this any ideas?


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

steven12345 said:


> well i have come to the conclusion that i do have a surge problem.. i was told a bigger cam might be a way to stop this any ideas?


hard to believe... 270 is the most popular cam .... of course that doesnt' really say that much as many characteristics can be different. Anyways... lets be logical here, you're speaking about 5psi of surge, while others are running 15-20+ on 50/57/60trims.... :screwy:

This sounds silly but its happened before... you may want to make sure the compressor and turbine wheels are the correct direction on your turbo :laugh:


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

im not running a 270 cam i am running a 268/260 cam. was thinking of moving up to a 270 cam. and yes the wheels are the right way on the turbo. I am actually thinking maybe it is my 2 1/4 tt exhasut i donno if that 1/4 inch is doing anything. could it be that the comes from the 2 1/2 inch dp and down to a 2 1/4 exhasust.


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## groundupjetta (Feb 1, 2010)

I dont think your problem is the exhaust, I have my exhaust the same way as well as others with a similar setup and it doesn't give a problem

Stepping up to the 270 is a good upgrade but I wouldnt do anything until you can figure out whats wrong right now


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

steven12345 said:


> im not running a 270 cam i am running a 268/260 cam. was thinking of moving up to a 270 cam. and yes the wheels are the right way on the turbo. I am actually thinking maybe it is my 2 1/4 tt exhasut i donno if that 1/4 inch is doing anything. could it be that the comes from the 2 1/2 inch dp and down to a 2 1/4 exhasust.


I agree with him ^^^... What I meant is a 270 to 268 isn't that much of a difference.. keep in mind the power you'd be actually making at 5psi.... 160-180whp?
A 2.25" exhaust will easily support 250whp despite what 90% of what the internet thinks.

You've done a compression and leak down test?


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

video us pronto


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## steven12345 (Jul 18, 2006)

yes compression and leak test all checked out.


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