# New TDi warm up time?



## Harv2002 (May 15, 2008)

We have an 04 Jetta TDi wagon and like the car a lot. The only complaint (my wife's as it's her ride) is that it takes a long time to warm up in the cold months here in Ohio. This winter it's not been so bad but the last two days were a reminder of how long it takes to get heat. Usually we are parked in a heatted garage but right now we are into a home remodel so the garage has a lot of stuff in it so the TDi sits outside. I'm guessing the V6 TDi might make heat sooner as its larger and of course more modern.

Anyon been keeping their Touareg outside in the cold?

How long does it take to get heat?

John


----------



## grohgreg (Jun 12, 2011)

About 25F a few mornings ago. Three miles into town and the temp gauge didn't even move. Continued through town, then another 3 miles and the needle started to rise. Shortly after than a little (very little) heat began to come outa the vents. 15F this morning, I'm glad I don't have to go anywhere. It's my 11th diesel, most of which had engine heaters. This one cold starts better than all of them, but the long warm up time has me thinking engine heater again. That said, I keep forgetting to use my heated seats. 

//greg//


----------



## Harv2002 (May 15, 2008)

Man that stinks. 

It would be cool if they had some sort of electric supplemental heat. Ah in my dreams. 

John


----------



## grohgreg (Jun 12, 2011)

Well, if you don't mind plugging your car in at night - I can highly recommend an oil pan heater sized to the oil capacity of your engine. Being affixed to the lowest point of the engine, it heats - and just as importantly thins - the oil first. Then heat rising off the oil warms the coolant in the engine block, which also happens to be the coolant first to circulate through your heater core. The only potential drawbacks are that a pan heater needs a smooth bottomed oil sump, and that the surface area must be larger than the heading pad itself. I've never been under my Touareg, so I don't know if the bottom of the pan is smooth or ribbed, large surface area or small. 

//greg//


----------



## kleinbus (Sep 9, 2008)

Modern commonrail diesels burn the fuel more efficiently so there is no waste heat like happens on gassers.

Back in Europe where I used to drive TDI's only, we had Webasto (auxiliary fuel heater) always included to TDI's so it was nice to sit down to warm car on every morning no matter was it at freezing point or was it 20 below.

On low temperatures, around 0F and below you should also use the winter covers to reduce the windchill engine gets from driving wind.

Don't use those oil heaters as there is reason why in Europe they don't use those, the approved heater is the unit that goes to block and keeps the coolant warm.


----------



## Yeti35 (May 17, 2006)

I have heat in about a mile or two from my house. My 10 has the heater for coolant for heat only and it works pretty well. Mine sits outside all the time now and it was low 20's here today.


----------



## grohgreg (Jun 12, 2011)

kleinbus said:


> Don't use those oil heaters as there is reason why in Europe they don't use those,


Not sure why, but your view certainly isn't held throughout ALL of Europe. See here. That said, there's nothing wrong with block heaters (screw into a water jacket) or circulating tank type heaters (installed inline on the heater supply hose). They're just harder to install in the crowded Touareg engine bay. For an owner in Ohio USA however, a pan heater makes for the simplest easiest install.

//greg//


----------



## kleinbus (Sep 9, 2008)

All of the Europe? and how many years did you live there?

I lived there 33 years before moving to States, I drove Peugeot diesels, VAG diesels, MB diesels and few BMW diesels and NON of them ever had anything else than block coolant heater as OEM equipment.

Non of current off-highway engine manufacturers here in States (Cummins, CAT) uses anything else than block heaters.

Some aftermarket company promoting their product is just sales crap and there is reason why those "outside" heaters are not used by OEM.


The coolant heater heats the fluid in block cavities and that coolant is right there where the heat is needed. For diesel, the block and head is where the "warmth" is pleasing... :laugh:

Swedish and Finnish car magazines also made many tests and results were pretty same stating one cold start for diesel equals roughly 100 summer starts as it is compression ignition (not sparkplug ignition like gasser) and the compression during cold morning have to overcome the cold head.

The oil heater heats the oil on very bottom of engine and as the oil doesn't reach up to the block itself, it doesn't do much good from "warming" the whole engine. Sure the oil on oilpan is nice and warm but the middle and top of engine structure is still cold, the critical area where the heat is actually needed.


----------



## VW/Porsche Fahrer (Dec 14, 2011)

My Touareg TDI starts to heat the interior in about a mile ( 25F outside) which, to me, is quick for a Diesel. I did notice that if I let the car idle it uses a fair amount of fuel before driving off. I average about 25 to 27 mpg.... over 30mpg on the interstates.

I lived in Germany for about 3.5 years and drove a B5.5 Passat TDI with PD. That car used very little fuel at idle and took much longer to get heat which is more typical of my experience wth Diesels. Diesels are why they invented heated seats


----------



## kleinbus (Sep 9, 2008)

VW/Porsche Fahrer said:


> My Touareg TDI starts to heat the interior in about a mile ( 25F outside) which, to me, is quick for a Diesel....


Yes that is quick and on other forum I saw post that these should have the auxiliary diesel heater to generate the heat (if the temperature knob is turned all the way to hot) so that would explain such quick warm air for interior and ever since I have been trying to pinpoint the unit but no luck so far....


----------



## grohgreg (Jun 12, 2011)

kleinbus said:


> The oil heater heats the oil on very bottom of engine and as the oil doesn't reach up to the block itself, it doesn't do much good from "warming" the whole engine. Sure the oil on oilpan is nice and warm but the middle and top of engine structure is still cold, the critical area where the heat is actually needed.


I only lived there 11 years, sorry. But as far as the "ALL of Europe" statement, I guess you didn't click on the hyperlink to pan heater sales in the UK. Anyway, I'm not talking about OEM. I'm talking aftermarket. If a vehicle didn't come with any kind of engine heater at all, the owner should be free to put on any type he sees fit.

But what you said above is patently false - OR - describes a situation where the owner did not properly match the heater to the oil capacity. When properly sized (by wattage) to the sump capacity, a thermocouple (as opposed to a thermostat) subsequently heats the oil to approximately 125F - and holds it there. More importantly, 125F thins the oil to near-operating viscosity. THAT's what's important to the "_critical area_". Given the incontestable physical law stating "*heat rises*", 125F is more than sufficient to then heat the coolant in the water jackets above the oil pan. That heat eventually transfers to the engine block. After being plugged in overnight, I can put my hand on the side of a block and feel a definite temp difference between there and any other metal under the hood. As I said earlier - as soon as you start the engine - the next place this pre-warmed coolant hits is the heater core.

//greg//


----------



## kleinbus (Sep 9, 2008)

This is getting off from OP's post so I'll try to keep it short.

Yes I clicked the link and saw the aftermarket heating pads.

I have spent last 5 years working with 5L-10L off-road and on-highway engines and its cooling and emission systems.

All I can say is that I hope you have actual experience from engines and cooling systems and you are not one of those who read sales brochures like a bibble?

To make you feel happy lets say you are right and the heating pad element is the greatest invention in the world and I and rest of the OEM R&D engineers working with engines are wrong as we prefer the coil in coolant.


----------



## grohgreg (Jun 12, 2011)

kleinbus said:


> This is getting off from OP's post


In that, you're absolutely correct. I'm an engineer as well, and regrettably fall victim to my own professional prejudices on occasion. In this case, one of us simply doesn't believe that there's room for both OEM and aftermarket in this world. 

//greg//


----------



## Harv2002 (May 15, 2008)

I have an EZ Heat oil sump heatter on my Bonanza and it works very well. Since its fuel injected, cold starts are not a problem but getting oil psi up is. The oil heatter fixed that problem. None of that makes heat as that type of,,,,, vehicle gets heat off the mufflers. 

Anyway, did someone (kleinbus?) mention that the Touareg has a supplemental heatter?

John


----------



## kleinbus (Sep 9, 2008)

> ....did someone mention that the Touareg has a supplemental heatter?



YES and NO


Yes the auxiliary heater is part of European TDI configuration (I checked if from Finnish and few other EU countries VW sites) but so far I'm not sure is it included to North America models.

I have to see if I can find more info from the heater (runs by diesel fuel).


----------



## Yeti35 (May 17, 2006)

kleinbus said:


> YES and NO
> 
> 
> Yes the auxiliary heater is part of European TDI configuration (I checked if from Finnish and few other EU countries VW sites) but so far I'm not sure is it included to North America models.
> ...


 There is an auxiliary heater of some sort on them, but not sure if it works like a Webasto or is purely something electrical. As I said about I typically have heat a short distance into my drive on a cold morning and it for sure is not due to the car being warmed up. I don't warm it up but rather get in and drive it easy until things warm up.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Yeti35 said:


> There is an auxiliary heater of some sort on them, but not sure if it works like a Webasto or is purely something electrical. As I said about I typically have heat a short distance into my drive on a cold morning and it for sure is not due to the car being warmed up. I don't warm it up but rather get in and drive it easy until things warm up.


edited for content


----------



## Yeti35 (May 17, 2006)

[edited for content]

Nothing needs installed, it already has a auxilary heater in it.


----------



## kleinbus (Sep 9, 2008)

There is something fishy with this as the Jetta thread shows the label on the side of the drivers doorwell and mine doesn't have it nor can I find the exhaust tip from under nor the coding works.

Hold on folks, first we need to clear up few things. the park residual button right next to right temp button (on 2011-2012) is for electric pump that circulatest the hot coolant and this doesn't activate until engine is warm and power is off (as it's meant to be used for 10-20 mins after driver parks the car with warm engine, turns the engine off but stays inside the vehicle).

The "webasto" or blueheat as it is know here in States, is auxiliary heater that runs with diesel fuel by itself (with its own fuel pump) and this unit is used on modern diesels to generate "supplemental" heat right after the start and during really cold temperatures. The coding on Jetta forum is for Webasto and I tried it on mine, saw the aux function on touch screen but nothing happened.

Something doesn't match here as like Yeti said, on cold mornings the cab heater gives warm air within few miles and these diesels doesn't warm that quickly so either there is the Webasto unit or the supplemental heat is generated some other way.

I guess I have to plug the vag-com in again and see if I missed something


----------



## STR3T (Jan 24, 2003)

My engine temp (oil) can be locked down at zero stil, in 15-25F, and I get good heat out of the vents within 1 - 1.5 miles. 

Not sure if this implies auxiliary heat or not...


----------



## Harv2002 (May 15, 2008)

STR3T said:


> My engine temp (oil) can be locked down at zero stil, in 15-25F, and I get good heat out of the vents within 1 - 1.5 miles.
> 
> Not sure if this implies auxiliary heat or not...


Is that with an 11 or 12 TDi Touareg?

John


----------



## TREGinginCO (Jan 4, 2004)

All US VW TDI equipped vehicles.... and Audi for that matter... are equipped with an auxiliary heater to warm up the cabin quickly.

When you get in the car.... Turn the temp knob to high (not the fan)... And within a minute or two... you will start to feel heat coming out of the vents.

If you have the Climate Control in AUTO... the fan will spin up appropriately.


----------



## grohgreg (Jun 12, 2011)

TREGinginCO said:


> All US VW TDI equipped vehicles.... are equipped with an auxiliary heater to warm up the cabin quickly..


Mine apparently doesn't. And I leave the dual zone climate control in AUTO nearly 100% of the time.

That said, there's a dramatic difference between warm-up time at 25F (like I described earlier) and 40F. Just those 15 degrees of difference this morning was enough to start moving the temp gauge needle and start sending warm air out the vents in under three miles (at 55 mph).

//greg/


----------



## Yeti35 (May 17, 2006)

grohgreg said:


> Mine apparently doesn't. And I leave the dual zone climate control in AUTO nearly 100% of the time.
> 
> That said, there's a dramatic difference between warm-up time at 25F (like I described earlier) and 40F. Just those 15 degrees of difference this morning was enough to start moving the temp gauge needle and start sending warm air out the vents in under three miles (at 55 mph).
> 
> //greg/


I think you missed the point where he said the temp setting must be set to HIGH, meaning all the way up for you to get it quickly. Fan in AUTO will just spool the fan gradually to get the heat in.


----------



## BigEnos (Nov 19, 2004)

I left work today and decided to give this a try. My 2010 Golf TDI does take a while to get to operating temp on a cold day. I wound the temp to "HI" and in just about 2 miles I had warm air coming out the vents. I feel like a dummy now for suffering through some cold mornings in my car. It was not super cold today, around 40, but the air coming out of my vents was genuinely hot long before I had temp in the coolant.


----------



## grohgreg (Jun 12, 2011)

Yeti35 said:


> I think you missed the point where he said the temp setting must be set to HIGH, meaning all the way up for you to get it quickly. Fan in AUTO will just spool the fan gradually to get the heat in.


I think you missed the point where I said *climate control*, which implies "automatic". There is no HIGH setting per se, only selectable target temperatures. AUTO in this case controls *both* temp _and_ fan speed.

Or are you trying to say that I should _*over-ride* AUTO_, and rotate the temperature select to the stop? If yes, that sorta takes the "automatic" outa _automatic climate control_ - doesn't it?

//greg//


----------



## kleinbus (Sep 9, 2008)

grohgreg said:


> I think you missed the point where I said *climate control*, which implies "automatic". There is no HIGH setting per se, only selectable target temperatures. AUTO in this case controls *both* temp _and_ fan speed.



Actually Yeti is correct.....

The HI is activated when the heat knob is turned clockwise till HI appears to temperature display.

AUTO is not the ultimate answer for every situation.


----------



## grohgreg (Jun 12, 2011)

kleinbus said:


> The HI is activated when the heat knob is turned clockwise till HI appears to temperature display.


Thank you, that cleared it up for me. Supplemental heat is not covered in the owner manual, and I never had occasion to seek 87F temps in the cabin. Didn't realize that the HI you mention actually comes next (after 87F). 

Figured out the REST function while I was at it. Three months into cold season, and I've never used it. Same reason - insufficient coverage in the owner manual

//greg//


----------



## grohgreg (Jun 12, 2011)

Followup. Found a shortcut that works even better. Rather than pushing the button to gang the passenger heat control - then rotating the AUTO knob all the way to HI - then reversing all that once heat is flowing - I now just push the defrost button located to the upper right of the AUTO knob. As well as hitting the windshield, there's plenty airflow coming out the vents. As long as that yellow defrost LED is illuminated, the system over-rides any AUTO setting and goes to HI heat and high fan. Soon as there's enough heat coming out the vents, I push the button again. The system resets itself to the current AUTO settings.

//greg//


----------



## w0by (Dec 12, 2013)

*2013 Jetta TDI*

I have a new 2013 Jetta TDI, it sits outside and it's been like 3F in the mornings, my car starts to blow out hot air once I'm down the street. I'm happy with it!


----------



## Yeti35 (May 17, 2006)

w0by said:


> I have a new 2013 Jetta TDI, it sits outside and it's been like 3F in the mornings, my car starts to blow out hot air once I'm down the street. I'm happy with it!


Wholly old thread! It was not about the Jetta in the first place... Yes, you have the same type of auxilary heater as the Touareg and that is why you have heat quickly.


----------



## VW/Porsche Fahrer (Dec 14, 2011)

With my 2012 Touareg TDI, all I do is press the defrost button and my windshield is clear and the cabin warming in about .5 to 1.0 mile.


----------



## Tutti57 (Jun 20, 2011)

Is the aux heater only in the tdi models? I know diesels are known to suck in the heat dept so it makes sense but my t2 seems to heat up pretty fast when it's cold out. Much faster than my passat


----------



## Yeti35 (May 17, 2006)

Tutti57 said:


> Is the aux heater only in the tdi models? I know diesels are known to suck in the heat dept so it makes sense but my t2 seems to heat up pretty fast when it's cold out. Much faster than my passat


As far as I know only a TDI thing due to the fact they don't heat up quickly at all. I doubt your gas V6 has one at all unless a previous owner installed something.


----------



## TREGinginCO (Jan 4, 2004)

I have a 2013 Audi allroad with the 2.0T gasser engine.... it has the aux heater ----- for what it's worth. I wish it has a REST feature like the Touareg ---- that is still one of my favorite features, especially this time of year.


----------

