# anyone tuned a 2l 16v ignition advance map on a dyno?



## chadr (Feb 12, 2000)

turbo or non-turbo, I am just interested in what map you found was best. I already know the the map I am using with premium fuel causes my engine to ping and I've messed around with decreasing the advance in order to run regular fuel as well. It costs about $300/hr on a load bearing dyno here in Tampa to do the proper tuning and I'm not ready to spend that money when I will have a turbo installed a few months from now.


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: anyone tuned a 2l 16v ignition advance map on a dyno? (chadr)*

which one are you using?
i have used the same one in about 6 diff cars with no pinging issues and they make a good amount of power...
$300 an hr!!! holy crap


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## chadr (Feb 12, 2000)

*Re: anyone tuned a 2l 16v ignition advance map on a dyno? (VWralley)*

I just posted this in the 16v forum, any way to delete this from here?
The first table in this thread is the one I was using for the past couple months with premium gas. I verified the advance witha timing light so the base timing is good - maybe its the years of carbon buildup in the 220,000 miles on the engine. 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3066334


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: anyone tuned a 2l 16v ignition advance map on a dyno? (chadr)*

you shouldnt have much knock with that map...are u sure its knocking an not valve clatter or something? a knock light may be a real good investment...
http://www.viatrack.ca/


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## chadr (Feb 12, 2000)

*Re: anyone tuned a 2l 16v ignition advance map on a dyno? (VWralley)*

if the ping goes away with less advance then I'd say its not other engine noise








knocksense is on the list of stuff I'll buy sometime soon


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## mjleamy (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: anyone tuned a 2l 16v ignition advance map on a dyno? (VWralley)*

What is valve clatter? Is cit aused by the high-frequency vibrations from engine ping rattling the valve train? That's what I would have thought.


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## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

Your link to your map seems to be down, but I have dyno tuned mine, which is basically a bone stock 2L 16v. 
I'm in utah and run 91 octane fuel. 
I found the map which was floating around had too much timing nearly everywhere. Down low from 1000-2000 rpm I had to pull timing down from 15 degrees to 6 to stop the pinging. I have around 23 degrees at peak torque and it tapers up to 27 degrees at 6500 rpm, following the dropping cylinder pressure with the stock cams and manifolds. 
On this BONE stock 2.0 16v there was absolutely no point to rev it out any further, initially I had the rev limit set to 7200 but ditched that on the dyno. Power is simply falling on its face. 
That is where I found this motor to make best power on 91 octane. 
PS $300 / hr is a ripoff for dyno tuning, and you don't need a load based dyno for tuning WOT, in fact in many ways inertia dyno's work better for that. The only thing load based dyno's really shine for is tuning part throttle.


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## chadr (Feb 12, 2000)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*

the links are now working again, so you can check it out. Can you post your map or msq? I'll pm my email address. Thanks


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## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

Yes- That is the same map I started with IIRC, I found it had too much timing almost everywhere. It picked up power by pulling some timing out, and it was knocking / pinging like crazy if you got the load up in those low rpm bands. I'll plug into my car and get my ignition map. 
It was important to me to tune all the nooks and crannies of the map because its my girlfriends car and she's been known to not bother downshifting when pulling into the bank or whatever. 
Shouldn't have to relearn how to drive because the tuning sucks. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by fast_a2_20v at 6:53 PM 2-19-2007_


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## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*

any chance you could email that msq to [email protected] 
pretty please?


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## chadr (Feb 12, 2000)

*Re: (VW_NUT)*

so only one person had dyno'd and tuned the ignition map on a non-turbo 16v here? did anyone get a an email from fast_a2 ? I sent an im as well, no reply yet. I am just eager to see a good map.


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## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

Sorry my car has no battery in it for a few days as I'm swapping in mk3 accessories. I will get it for you.


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## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*

Going with the serp belt set up? Those 16v accesories suck. There is always one belt that squeels. 
Any time you get a chance that ign map would be awesome..


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## chadr (Feb 12, 2000)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*

fast - any luck with getting the map yet?
anyone else, only 1 person with a 16v spark map that has tuned the map on a dyno... amazing. Guess its the honda crowd that is more into having a properly tuned engine


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (chadr)*

i dont know why you are having a pingin problem. i havnt ever had one an used the same base fuel an spark map in many different 16v configurations. they all run well enough an make enough power that a dyno session is almost un-needed, which is seems to be why dyno maps are few an far between.
im getting started on another 16v in a mk2, this car will actually see some good time tuning, ill let you know when i get into it an see if any timing changes are needed. i know this isnt a ton of help right now, but it may help you down the road










_Modified by VWralley at 12:42 PM 3-7-2007_


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (VWralley)*

curious to see some more maps...
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## chadr (Feb 12, 2000)

*Re: (ValveCoverGasket)*

vcg, 
offer up some $$ to fast_a2_20v to get his map. I've done that on im, but got no reply


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (chadr)*

im not going to pay someone for something that i dont really need








but i am curious to take a peak


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## chadr (Feb 12, 2000)

*Re: (ValveCoverGasket)*

I dyno'd my car today using a dyno dynamics system. I didn't even use the fixed rpm / variable load feature much because it was my first time at the dyno and it was much easier to just tune wide open runs from 1500 - 6500 rpm. Here are some things I can remember at the moment
- peak power on the last run at 6500 rpm was 125 (don't even know how that compares to real hp as each dyno is different). Peak power on my first run was 118.
- I could have run to 7k since power hadn't yet started dropping at 6500 rpm
- found there were 3 areas where my afr was getting up to 14, so these areas were richened. That helped smooth out the afr a bit, and also I moved some of the bins to where the leanest afr peaks were reported and dialed back in the fuel table so the afr was close to 13 under load. Maybe about 5 ftlb of torque more found in some areas above 4200 rpm with the afr close to 13.
- power at 5000+ rpm was greatest with the dyno afr reading 12.5. My lc-1 was showing around 11.5?? but I kept it where the most power was made (12.5 on the dyno afr meter) and maybe my lc-1 isn't accurate? When we first started the testing the lc-1 and dyno afr were identical. The operator thought others have noticed the widebands or maybe lc-1 read too rich when hot. 
- best power was made with afr at 13 up to 4500 rpm, and 12.5 from 4500 - max rpm. It may be possible to lean it out a little and still get very close to the max power but we tried 5% richer, 5% leaner on the entire table to find what kind of adjustments would give best power.
- ignition timing i had been using was pretty close to a good map for most power at wide open throttle.  I only did max power tuning since it took 2 hours to do just that.
- at 5000+ rpm I found that my car lost power at 23 degrees advance, so it was set back to 21 where power was gained. 
- knock sensors seem to go off above 5000 rpm but it really could be slight knock. I just set ms to ignore knock above 5000 rpm. 
- my latest msq is posted at the link below
- anyone in the tampa area, I'd recommend these guys at http://ellisautoworkz.com/
- megatune really sucks for tuning since it has minimal multi cell adjustment ability. You have to do the entire table or each cell. I wasted too much time saving the msq, opening mega log viewer, adjusting tables and importing them back to megatune. Megatunix looks much better but I wasn't comfortable enough with it yet to pay dyno time trying it out. Should have don't that but i didn't realize megatune was going to be so cumbersome.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (chadr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chadr* »_
- megatune really sucks for tuning since it has minimal multi cell adjustment ability. You have to do the entire table or each cell. 

you just have to get quick with the shift key and the arrows, no a big deal


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: (chadr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chadr* »_at 5000+ rpm I found that my car lost power at 23 degrees advance, so it was set back to 21 where power was gained. 

pretty surprised at this since 23 is lower than stock @ WOT. good info to think about. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## chadr (Feb 12, 2000)

*Re: (mk2dubbin)*

I have tt cams too, so from what I have read I should run less advance when the cams are in their sweet spot. It makes sense because more air = more density = faster burning. Also, I've read that more fuel than 12:1 has the same effect as retarding the timing. So I may retune for 12.5:1 (indicated on my lc-1 wideband, not the dyno wideband) and take out even more ignition timing to see if power remains the same. In the next month or two I'll stop by the dyno again for testing. There are some good articles here - http://www.innovatemotorsports...=2907


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## chadr (Feb 12, 2000)

*Re: (chadr)*

images of the dyno runs...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (mk2dubbin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk2dubbin* »_
pretty surprised at this since 23 is lower than stock @ WOT. good info to think about. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I would suspect that your ignition timing hasn't been set up right, meaning the trigger angle in MT and the actual trigger are off a bit.
Also make sure with the LC1 you're not using the Innovate 0-5v, 10-20afr it won't work unless you recal the LC1 to LM1 specs. You can also set to LC1 default. I've had a problem with LC1 grounds before as well, make sure all your grounds are tied together and go to a quality engine ground.
In any case you were right to trust the dyno instead of what MS/wideband is telling you.
In one of the newer versions of MT you can dragbox in the VE table and then do a few functions to all those cells.


_Modified by need_a_VR6 at 8:42 AM 4-24-2007_


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
In one of the newer versions of MT you can dragbox in the VE table and then do a few functions to all those cells.


which version is this?


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## chadr (Feb 12, 2000)

*Re: (ValveCoverGasket)*

i use megalogviewer to do this, but i don't this can be done in megatune.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (ValveCoverGasket)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ValveCoverGasket* »_
which version is this?

2.25 full release P1 rings a bell. The log viewer is nice but I always go back to MT for tweaks, the cell rope makes things easier.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

ill have to go poke around some more...
i was pretty sure i had the latest version but ill check again


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (ValveCoverGasket)*

You have to click in a strange (for me at least) spot to get it to work. I didn't notice it until someone else showed me.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

i cant seem to find it


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (ValveCoverGasket)*

Just for reference, under WOT 12.8 - 13.2 AF should be where the best power is made. I'd try to get your fueling set there and adjust the ignition accordingly.
For boost slightly fatter, 12.0-12.5'ish is best.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Fast929)*

12.8:1 and 32deg total timing worked well enough on a mostly stock abf to go 13.58 and trap 97.. there's good power there.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Yep! Even when I was racing motorcycles we would tune for 12.8 - 13.2 depending on the weather and altitude and run the necessary timing to suit. My 929 track bike made 146.2 @ 11.8k at the wheel so there is plenty of power there.
What I have seen is much fatter than that and you start to fall off the curve pretty quickly in the other direction. You can't bring enough advance in to compensate for the fuel and good luck with getting it to pass anything smog related







Mileage suffers accordingly. I once got 27mi on a full tank of fuel (4.9gal) at the track.
I'm hoping my 16v build follows suit (powerwise).


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## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

*Re: (Fast929)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Fast929* »_Just for reference, under WOT 12.8 - 13.2 AF should be where the best power is made. I'd try to get your fueling set there and adjust the ignition accordingly.
For boost slightly fatter, 12.0-12.5'ish is best. 

I was back on the dyno fiddling around with mine today, and being 13:1 cost me 10whp versus 12:1.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (fast_a2_20v)*

I think manifold pressure might have something to do with that one.


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## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

How so? I did a pull and made ~125 whp... I leaned out the entire map via scaling to around ~13:1 and dropped to ~115whp. 
Within 10 minutes so I don't think the manifold pressure was any different. Water / IAT's were about the same although IAT was climbing slowly throughout the tuning session of about ~15 pulls. 
These were roughly in the ~middle. 
BTW is there a way to pull timing with coolant temp? I saw some ways to add it as coolant temp is low- but none to remove it as temp climbs. 
My fans came unplugged the other day, and I got pissed off at some people gawking at an accident making my water temp go skyhigh. When the road cleared I rolled into it and got a bunch of pinging- coolant temp was probably ~230-235 degrees.


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## fast_a2_20v (Jun 25, 2004)

**Disclaimer- This is a stock 9a and I do mean STOCK. This map was tuned on 91 octane at 4500 feet altitude- Anything over ~85kpa on the maps is PURE SPECULATION! If you want to be safe scale this whole map down 2 degrees of timing- At least my timing / temp correction on my ECU doesn't work well at all- so this is a bit aggressive when the coolant temps get really hot. aka 230+ ***
Dyno: 
P.S. As I was saying above, WOT leaning out cost power on this particular car on this particular day. It also would not allow as much timing. *The numbers on this chart below are POST catalytic- the onboard wb02 dances around 12.0:1 *









fuel map: 








Thats 60psi base pressure, ~14.6 Req Fuel, some stock dodge neon injectors. 
Timing: 








Thats a junkyard 9a on 91 octane. I had to pull a lot of timing down low to stop it from pinging like crazy. Watch out on this map if your water temps get out of control it will ping. 
Other then the 0 degrees down low and the 25's in super vacuum- stuff i'm just tinkering with- everything else has been dyno sorted out.

Download .msq here: http://www.integrated-engineer...d=180 

_Modified by fast_a2_20v at 2:28 AM 5-2-2007_


_Modified by fast_a2_20v at 2:30 AM 5-2-2007_


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