# Ability to remove speed limiter using VAS 5051



## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

Probably password-controlled, but still there, uh?
«The Phaeton is a fun car to drive though, as Jack Baruch will confirm. *Especially with the 12 cylinder W engine and a friend at VW, who hooked up his VAS 5051 and killed the speed limiter*. Even more fun at 300+ km/h in a car that looks deceptively like a Passat in a rear view mirror.»
Source: end of this comment.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.c...83588


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: Ability to remove speed limiter using VAS 5051 (Itzmann)*

When I first got my Phaeton, I met the lead Phaeton tech at my dealership. He was very impressed with my Phaeton knowledge (all of which I gained from lurking around here) and was very open to discussions. One was about the limiter… he said it is definitely possible to eliminate it and said he would be willing to do it if I upgraded my tires. 
Unfortunately, shortly after that he left VW and moved to the local Bentley dealership. I still have his name and roughly know where he lives. I’m going to see if I can track him down… now that I have Bentley wheels








I’m sure this would be a hot topic if someone was able to crack the code. I’m guessing there are more than a few NA owners that would like to see what these cars where designed to do. Also, there will be those with liability and safety concerns.
This could be the single best upgrade yet!


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

You might want to upgrade the brakes to the RoW specification as well


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## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

*Re: Ability to remove speed limiter using VAS 5051 (Auzivision)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Auzivision* »_
I’m sure this would be a hot topic if someone was able to crack the code. I’m guessing there are more than a few NA owners that would like to see what these cars where designed to do. Also, there will be those with liability and safety concerns.


of course only on a closed circuit course















You have to enter the login code in the ecm and change the area coding to european. I don't have the login code though. I remember the g/j/b was 12030 i think...


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## Jim Morris (Nov 8, 2008)

*Re: (Prince Ludwig)*

I had the speed limiter removed on my V10 by a company called Ziptuning (http://www.ziptuning.nl/en/) when they enhanced my engine performance (bumped it to 370HP and 850Nm torque). The tool they used to remove the limiter was different than the one they needed for the performance upgrade, although both were controlled in the car's software (more specifically, the ECU chip). It looked the same as the tool used in my local Phaeton Center so I assume it was a standard VAS-tool. The performance upgrade decreased the car's 0-100km/h sprint to only 6 seconds...
Since my car has RoW brakes it is perfectly capable of handling the new top speed (around 300km/h on the speedometer, not taking into account the correction).
So it is definitely possible by just altering the car's software, and it can be done by a non-VW entity (as Ziptuning has nothing to do with VW).


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Ability to remove speed limiter using VAS 5051 (Itzmann)*

It is not possible to remove the speed limiter from any VW product using a diagnostic scan tool (VAS 5051, VAG-COM, or similar).
To make low-level changes such as this requires use of a different programming tool that is not generally available outside of VW engineering (e.g. Dresden, Wolfsburg, VW of A headquarters, etc.).
Some third party chip tuning vendors claim that they are able to defeat the speed limiter. This is quite possible, because they would need similar technology to re-map the control module that operates the engine.
It would be quite unwise to remove the 130 MPH (210 km/h) speed limiter from the North American Phaeton, because the brakes on the North American Phaeton are not large enough to absorb the energy generated when stopping the car from speeds greater than 130 MPH. The background on the speed limiter / brakes story is this: All NAR VW products are limited to 130 MPH - always have been - because there is no practical reason to permit a higher speed on vehicles exported to NAR. Because of this limitation, VW did not fit the larger brake assemblies used in the Rest of the World to the NAR Phaetons. This decision is certainly in the best interest of the owners - it cut the cost of a brake overhaul in half - but obviously you are going to have problems stopping the vehicle from speeds higher than 130 MPH if you defeat the speed limiter.
Michael


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## Auzivision (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: (Prince Ludwig)*

I wonder if any third party suppliers in the US have cracked the code. I know there wouldn’t be a huge market for this, so probably not worth the effort for them. One can only wish.








Hypothetically speaking under closed course conditions, one wouldn’t need to go from Vmax to Vmin rapidly so braking issue is irrelevant. To me brakes are an overated waste of energy, I strive not to use them as often as possible.


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## zenmoused (Nov 6, 2008)

Just wondering if anyone knows- What is the max un-limited speed of our Phaetons (W12 and V8)? We've all seen Clarkson claim the W12 does 201 however I have my doubts.


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

Well, I remember reading an account from someone else who'd been invited to the Dubai launch who said he was egged on by the engineers to floor it and also got it up to about 200mph.
Harry


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## adamkodish (Mar 5, 2006)

*Re: (zenmoused)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zenmoused* »_Just wondering if anyone knows- What is the max un-limited speed of our Phaetons (W12 and V8)? We've all seen Clarkson claim the W12 does 201 however I have my doubts.

MTM Tuning claim to enable a vmax of 276 Km/h on a W12, 272 Km/h for the V8 and 276 Km/h on an uprated Phaeton V10. They claim 290 Km/h for the A8 W12.
Autocar ran a 'standard' Flying Spur with 4 blokes in it at just over 320 Km/h at Nardo. The Speed model can go even faster than that. The two turbos give the Spur a significant power advantage over a normally aspirated W12.


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## plastech (May 3, 2006)

*Re: (zenmoused)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zenmoused* »_Just wondering if anyone knows- What is the max un-limited speed of our Phaetons (W12 and V8)? We've all seen Clarkson claim the W12 does 201 however I have my doubts.

Hi You don't need to have any doubts a W12 will do 197 MPH 








Tony


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: (adamkodish)*


_Quote, originally posted by *adamkodish* »_
MTM Tuning claim to enable a vmax of 276 Km/h on a W12, 272 Km/h for the V8


So there would not be any difference between a V8 and a W12 ?
This doesn't sound right.
As for the V8, the figure is probably right seeing how seeing how easily I can bring it to 250.
P.


_Modified by Zaphh at 3:14 PM 5-16-2009_


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: (adamkodish)*


_Quote, originally posted by *adamkodish* »_
MTM Tuning claim to enable a vmax of 276 Km/h on a W12, 272 Km/h for the V8


So there would not be any difference between a V8 and a W12 ?
This doesn't sound right.
As for the V8, the figure is probably right seeing how seeing how easily I can bring it to 250.
P.
Oops... Sorry for the stutter...


_Modified by Zaphh at 3:14 PM 5-16-2009_


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## zenmoused (Nov 6, 2008)

Interesting. So in mph, that's about 200mph for the W12 and 170 for the V8? That's really impressive for a car as heavy as ours.


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

The weight of a car doesn't have much bearing on top speed but rather on the acceleration.
Harry


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## zenmoused (Nov 6, 2008)

Harry,
I suppose you are right. Your answer made me pull out my old Physics book and remember aerodynamics. Maybe I should amend my previous statement to read "that's impressive that a car as heavy as ours can find a road long enough to accelerate to that speed."








Brian


_Modified by zenmoused at 7:56 PM 5-16-2009_


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: (zenmoused)*

Then think of the amount of heat that must dissipated to decelerate such a car to a full stop !


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## adamkodish (Mar 5, 2006)

*Re: (Zaphh)*

Gear ratios are a factor in determining top speed.
Here's a speed calculator spreadsheet which will give an idea of the theoretical speeds in each gear:
http://www.gearboxman.co.uk/inforatios.html
There are also web based calculators you can use.
To get you started, I've looked up some ratios:
V10: 1=4.15; 2=2.37; 3=1.56; 4=1.16; 5=0.86; 6=0.69; final=2.86
W12: 1=3.57; 2=2.00; 3=1.51; 4=1.00; 5=0.80; final=2.91 *
V8: 1=4.17; 2=2.34; 3=1.52; 4=1.14; 5=0.88; 6=0.69; final=3.65
V6 TDi: 1=4.15; 2=2.37; 3=1.56; 4=1.16; 5=0.86; 6=0.69; final=3.33 **
* earlier model W12s are shown as having final ratio = 3.12
** ratio for 2004 model V6 TDi
When I plugged the V10 numbers into the spreadsheet it showed a top speed of 185mph. The top speeds in the lower gears (1-3) seem fairly close to actual performance, but I'm unable to comment on the higher gears.
Adam


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Ability to remove speed limiter using VAS 5051 (Itzmann)*


_Quote, originally posted by *adamkodish* »_...MTM Tuning claim to enable a vmax of 276 Km/h on a W12, 272 Km/h for the V8...

I don't put much trust in the claims of the tuning companies.
I have been a passenger in a 100% stock W12 (one of the GMD's demonstrators) that reached 280 km/h on a flat stretch of highway with no modification other than the speed limiter removed. The OAT was ISA +5° at close to standard pressure.
I quite doubt that the V8 (stock or chipped) produces the horsepower necessary to overcome the aerodynamic drag (wind resistance) that is encountered at speeds greater than about 250 km/h. The only benefit of a W12 engine vs. a V8 or a V10 is that the W12 produces more horsepower. Horsepower is what you need to achieve high top speeds, unless, of course, you are operating in a vacuum. 
Aerodynamic drag increases proportionate to the square of the speed - that's where the extra (stock) horsepower of the W12 is useful.
Michael


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## Kuwaity (Apr 2, 2004)

I did 270 km/h (Speedo meter reading) in my stock V8. I even took a video clip of it. I think the W12 can do more than 300 km/h.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Kuwaity)*

Sure, easy for you to accomplish at ISA + 30°







- not so easy for those of us in colder climates.
Michael


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael,
You are pointing your finger on something I never quite understood.
It seems that the colder OAT, the higher consumption... However, in physics terms, I would really have thought that the colder OAT, the larger difference between combustion temp and air intake temp, and therefore, the more delivered power. We see this everyday in small planes where power drops when we pull on carb heat...
So why on earth is it the opposite in cars







Why would it be easier for Kuwaity to drive at 270km/h in his 30°C+ climate than you in Vancouver at -10 ?








Enquiring minds want to know








P.
Ps : Aha : just had an idea: would it be because of thinner air, and therefore, less drag ? So in Kuwait, less power but less drag, and power does not go down as the same rate as drag at these speeds, so all in all, he is better off ? But I have doubts on this explanations, since in the winter, I have observed that even when driving in town (where drag simply isn't there), consumption seems to be higher...

_Modified by Zaphh at 10:49 AM 5-18-2009_


_Modified by Zaphh at 10:49 AM 5-18-2009_


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## Kuwaity (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re:*

This is quite interesting. The temp. at that time was 1x.x C (not clear in the video), much less than what we used to in Kuwait summer. 
The air density will inversely increase with temperature. Jet fighter pilots really can feel the difference in very cold climates compared to warm climates. But the temp difference between 5 C and say 20 C is not much. isn’t it?
We know that the lower the air temp. the more air density (more O2 molecules). Also, the maximum water vapor saturation will change depends on air temp. and I think that this is the reason. I know some friends who always dyno their cars after any modifications, they say that in the hot, humid weather their car’s power drops couple of horsepower.
Here in Kuwait the humidity change quickly depends on the location. Our house is about 400 meters from the beach (which is very humid in the summer), while the road that I topped my Phaeton is near Kuwait international air port (which is much dryer). Michael probably went there and knows the elevation from the sea level?

But what are the combinations of air temp, atmospheric pressure and the relative humidity makes more or less power?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Re: (Kuwaity)*

It's all related to air density (thickness, so to speak). At higher temperatures, the air is less dense, so the engine does not have to work as hard to push the air out of the way. The same concept applies as altitude increases - the air becomes less dense.
You can see the effect of this demonstrated on the airspeed indicator of an aircraft. If you are taking off from a hot temperature, high elevation airport (for example, Mexico city), the indicated airspeed of the aircraft will be considerably less than the actual surface speed (groundspeed).
The flip side of the coin is that a normally aspirated (non-turbocharged) engine will develop less horsepower when the air is less dense.
Michael


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## ramtor (Jan 1, 2006)

*Re: Re: (PanEuropean)*

I disagree Michael; unlikely density altitude at 30 degrees/0 MSL even in a dry desert will reduce parasite drag enough to even compensate for engine output/ rpm drop.
I think its just a fast car
DA = PA + (120 Vt)
where
DA = density altitude, PA = pressure altitude at the level you desire density altitude, 120 = a temperature constant (120 feet per 1°C), and Vt = actual temperature minus standard temperature at the level of the pressure altitude
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...e.png


_Modified by ramtor at 9:14 PM 5-19-2009_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Re: (ramtor)*

I am perplexed by your reference to "120 = a temperature constant (120 feet per 1°C)". My understanding is that the standard lapse rate is 1.98°C per 1,000 feet of elevation.
I'm not (yet) disagreeing with your postulate, I'm just trying to figure it out.
Michael


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## MadMacStew (Apr 20, 2009)

The W12 Phaeton was definitely designed for a vmax of 300 kph, but bear in mind that RoW versions are still speed limited, but to 155 mph (250 kph) rather than the 130 mph of NAR versions. The brakes are sized accordingly. Anyone taking off the limiter on a W12 should really upgrade not to RoW Phaeton brakes but to Bentley brakes (and rubber, of course), since they are designed to stop the car repeatedly from 200 mph.
BTW, aerodynamic drag, and hence power required to overcome it, varies as the cube of velocity, so to go from the 300 kph vmax of a W12 Phaeton to the 325 kph vmax of a Silver Spur requires a power increase of 27%. The W12 Phaeton has 444 bhp in RoW trim, the Bentley has 554 bhp, which is a difference of just under 25%. Ain't maths wunnerful?


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## ramtor (Jan 1, 2006)

*Re: Re: (PanEuropean)*

Michael temperature in this formula is not related to lapse rate, we ignore the humidity value (probably 0%, dry)
Density altitude is defined as the altitude at which a given air density is found in the standard atmosphere. For a given altitude, density altitude changes with changes in pressure, air temperature, and humidity. An increase in pressure increases air density, so it decreases density altitude. An increase in temperature decreases air density, so it increases density altitude. An increase in humidity decreases air density, so it increases density altitude. Changes in pressure and temperature have the greatest effect on density altitude, and changes in humidity have the least effect.
DA = PA + (120 Vt)
DA = 2,010 feet + [120(3°C - 11°C)]
DA = 2,010 + 120(19)
DA = 2,010 + 2,280
DA = 4,290 feet-will not provide any sufficient reduction of of parasite drag (or power reduction), example for you as a flight engineer would be turboprop/turbojet aircraft efficiency and ground speed factors, maximizes at the altitudes above 20,000-30,000 ft due to factors mentioned. But without turbocharger our poor Phaetons will not do very well there.


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## KonaJack (Feb 1, 2009)

*Re: (adamkodish)*

A neat Spreadsheet - but appears to only calculate the Rolling Radius (Circumference) of the Wheel Rim (not including the tire = 2x width x profile). When I manually added in the 9 inches of diameter my tire adds to my 18 inch rims - I get a theoretical top speed of 208 MPH at Redline in 6th (which it can't of course achieve but looks correct), but only 139 MPH when I don't make the adjustment (which is of course, incorrect.)


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Re: (ramtor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ramtor* »_Michael temperature in this formula is not related to lapse rate, we ignore the humidity value (probably 0%, dry)

Hi Dima:
Ah-ha, OK, now I understand, thanks for the very clear explanation.
I am so used to including lapse rate in everything I do (for practical purposes), I could not figure out the equation when it was presented without lapse rate.
Doh.....








But *now *I understand.








Michael


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