# What do I need to run 1600 rms?



## therockdrummer (Mar 23, 2007)

Okay so all my new parts are rolling in and I want to get an opinion on what I may need to buy to help my car run all this power...

I have a 2012 Jetta.

Pioneer AVH-4400BH
Alpine R 6.5comp
Alpine R 6.5 coax
(2)Alpine Type R 10" SVC

Alpine PDX-F4 for doors

Alpine PDX-M12 for subs.

Kicker PKD1 0/1 kit for wiring.

I am concerned with battery life/ dimming lights all that.

What should I fix it with?

Thanks in advance!! :beer: :beer:


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

therockdrummer said:


> Okay so all my new parts are rolling in and I want to get an opinion on what I may need to buy to help my car run all this power...
> 
> I have a 2012 Jetta.
> 
> ...


Start w/ the big 3


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## therockdrummer (Mar 23, 2007)

Okay, I think I can handle that.

But for fun, has anyone completed a DIY for this on a VW?


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

therockdrummer said:


> Okay, I think I can handle that.
> 
> But for fun, has anyone completed a DIY for this on a VW?


I think there was one done a while ago on a MK4, dunno about MK5 or 6. It's rather simple.

1. Upgrade/add battery ground.
2. Upgrade/add engine ground.
3. Upgrade/add power from alternator to battery.


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## NuImageAudio (Jul 9, 2012)

And a good battery. Don't waste your money on capacitors. They are a "band aide". They make you feel better, but don't do any healing. At 1600 watts, good power wire, the big 3 like above mentioned, and a nice battery (red top, stinger, kinetik) will keep you goin. You will probably have just a touch of light dimming when gettin down on it, but at 1600 watts you'll be pulling easily over 100 amps, usually nothing will keep up with that unless you do alt upgrades and more batteries. 
Also Make sure you don't need any specialty interfaces to install the radio. A lot (almost all) of the new vehicles require some form of interface.

Nu Image Audio & Accessories
Salina, ks 67401
(785)309-1617


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

NuImageAudio said:


> at 1600 watts you'll be pulling easily over 100 amps,
> 
> Nu Image Audio & Accessories
> Salina, ks 67401
> (785)309-1617


I highly disagree with you there.

Over 100a would only be if he was playing a sine wave or some other square wave. Normal entertaining/listening music is dynamic and has a ~ 25% duty cycle which would yield ~28A current draw without taking into account the efficiency of the amplifiers (PDX are ~80% efficient IIRC which would raise the current draw to about 35A). 

Now if he was playing a sine wave or some other signal that had a 100% duty cycle, then yes, it could draw a much greater amount of current.

1600 / 14.4 = 111A
111 * .25 = 28A
28A / .8 = 35A

You have to keep in mind that the RMS power is not constant, nor will it always be attained while listening to entertaining/normal music.


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## therockdrummer (Mar 23, 2007)

I was thinking about a battery too, thanks for the recommendation. 

VW.com lists the alternator as 14/140.

This is pretty beefy for a stock car, right?

Based on your info Nfrazier, it seems the big 3 may cover it. But after looking under the hood yesterday, it looks like factory has 4ga already!

I definitely do NOT want any of my other systems affected by the power. It seems I may just have to take it one step at a time after installation.


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

therockdrummer said:


> I was thinking about a battery too, thanks for the recommendation.
> 
> VW.com lists the alternator as 14/140.
> 
> ...


The wire may look like 4 gauge, but the amount of copper, never mind oxygen free copper, is less than full spec 4awg.

It is a larger alternator, but check to make sure it is that size first of all. Second alternators in cars typically have a current rating based on the possible needs of the vehicle (usually the manufacturer puts an alternator that when running at 80% will take care of all the accessories in the car.


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## NuImageAudio (Jul 9, 2012)

NFrazier said:


> The wire may look like 4 gauge, but the amount of copper, never mind oxygen free copper, is less than full spec 4awg.
> 
> It is a larger alternator, but check to make sure it is that size first of all. Second alternators in cars typically have a current rating based on the possible needs of the vehicle (usually the manufacturer puts an alternator that when running at 80% will take care of all the accessories in the car.


I can't say it any better than that. Bigger is always better when it comes to power and ground wires. Think of wire like a water hose....you wouldn't want to fight a fire with a garden hose would you? So why would you want to send massive amounts of power thru tiny wire? Always upgrade the big 3 with AT LEAST the same wire your running to the amplifier(s). When I do big 3s at the shop, its almost always 0ga.

Nu Image Audio & Accessories
Salina, ks 67401
(785)309-1617


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## NuImageAudio (Jul 9, 2012)

NFrazier said:


> I highly disagree with you there.
> 
> Over 100a would only be if he was playing a sine wave or some other square wave. Normal entertaining/listening music is dynamic and has a ~ 25% duty cycle which would yield ~28A current draw without taking into account the efficiency of the amplifiers (PDX are ~80% efficient IIRC which would raise the current draw to about 35A).
> 
> ...


 If that amp wants 100a, its going to try and get it. You have to be prepared for that. I wasn't meaning a constant 100A, but on normal listening the system will peak at 90A-100A I would assume. If its all sub power. If the 1600 is a combination, then it would be lower when getting down on it. I don't know Alpine amp specs, I haven't sold them in years.

Sorry for all the editing, Im multi tasking and keep meaning to say things different lol.

Nu Image Audio & Accessories
Salina, ks 67401
(785)309-1617


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

NFrazier said:


> I highly disagree with you there.
> 
> Over 100a would only be if he was playing a sine wave or some other square wave. Normal entertaining/listening music is dynamic and has a ~ 25% duty cycle which would yield ~28A current draw without taking into account the efficiency of the amplifiers (PDX are ~80% efficient IIRC which would raise the current draw to about 35A).
> 
> ...


True. Even so, a 25% duty cycle would be represent music or other program with a pretty heavily compressed dynamic range! Even pink noise has an average to peak ratio of about 9 to 10 dB.

Power amps don't have to put out a sustained maximum power in real-world conditions--only on a test bench.


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

NuImageAudio said:


> If that amp wants 100a, its going to try and get it. You have to be prepared for that. I wasn't meaning a constant 100A, but on normal listening the system will peak at 90A-100A I would assume. If its all sub power. If the 1600 is a combination, then it would be lower when getting down on it. I don't know Alpine amp specs, I haven't sold them in years.
> 
> Sorry for all the editing, Im multi tasking and keep meaning to say things different lol.
> 
> ...


An amp doesn't "want" something it doesn't need. Yes the current draw is going to vary depending on the frequency (and about ~1000W RMS of the power noted is bass, the other is full-range), but it's still not going to be 100A.


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## NuImageAudio (Jul 9, 2012)

I think we are on the same page, just different paragraphs. If only 1000 watts is sub output, then it will be considerably less amps. An amp wants everything it needs. It will take every last amp it needs to create the power it needs to based on the gains and tuning of the system. It may average 20-30 amps, but it will have peaks of (@1000w sub, 600 highs) probably 70A. If your trying tell me that these amps are going to pull no more than 35A total, including peaks in music and bass, unless he puts in sine or square waves, I'm going to have to simply strongly disagree as well. 

Nu Image Audio & Accessories
Salina, ks 67401
(785)309-1617


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

NuImageAudio said:


> I think we are on the same page, just different paragraphs. If only 1000 watts is sub output, then it will be considerably less amps. An amp wants everything it needs. It will take every last amp it needs to create the power it needs to based on the gains and tuning of the system. It may average 20-30 amps, but it will have peaks of (@1000w sub, 600 highs) probably 70A. If your trying tell me that these amps are going to pull no more than 35A total, including peaks in music and bass, unless he puts in sine or square waves, I'm going to have to simply strongly disagree as well.
> 
> Nu Image Audio & Accessories
> Salina, ks 67401
> (785)309-1617


Nope, not what I'm saying at all. There are going to be peaks and valleys. I'm saying that on average there is not going to be a 100A current draw warranting an expensive H.O. alternator.


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## NuImageAudio (Jul 9, 2012)

NFrazier said:


> Nope, not what I'm saying at all. There are going to be peaks and valleys. I'm saying that on average there is not going to be a 100A current draw warranting an expensive H.O. alternator.


Now we are on the same page, sentence, and word lol. I never meant it would be a constant draw, I should have been more specific when I said "pull 100A." A H.O. alt is by no means a requirement for this system, but if headlights dimming is truely a major concern for the customer, then it would be the next step after big 3, nice battery, and good wire. I've seen people upgrade for a lesser system than this one. Doesn't bother me, it all makes me $$. 

ORIGINAL POSTER

It sounds like you are in the right track for a nice system. Make sure you don't skip out on sound deadening for the trunk (or hatch) and doors at minimum. Some foam baffles that goes around the speaker is a great way to improve mid bass a bit without spending a ton of money. As stated before, Make sure since you are running 0ga wire that when you complete the big 3 you use 0ga as well.

Nu Image Audio & Accessories
Salina, ks 67401
(785)309-1617


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## RonPopeil (Apr 26, 2012)

why not just look at the fuses on the amps and add up the values. that should be his total drawing ability. trying to sort this out with "RMS" is pretty pointless.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

No, that would be just a total of the fuses' capacities and not an indicator of what the amps would draw.


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

RonPopeil said:


> why not just look at the fuses on the amps and add up the values. that should be his total drawing ability. trying to sort this out with "RMS" is pretty pointless.


You're actually completely wrong and backwards with that statement.


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## hollywood084 (Feb 9, 2010)

Do it right. Big 3, New battery, High Output 200a alternator. Get an Optima Yellowtop, or other brand equivalent.


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## RonPopeil (Apr 26, 2012)

oh yeah, makes sense. why figure how many amps you can draw before you have a mechanical failure? just debate RMS all day. RMS is a totally legit number that manufacturer's are 100% honest about. i mean manufacturer's are so tightly regulated in what they can claim as an amps output, of course you would just argue RMS. nevermind how much current the amp can draw before it fails. 




:facepalm:


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

RonPopeil said:


> oh yeah, makes sense. why figure how many amps you can draw before you have a mechanical failure? just debate RMS all day. RMS is a totally legit number that manufacturer's are 100% honest about. i mean manufacturer's are so tightly regulated in what they can claim as an amps output, of course you would just argue RMS. nevermind how much current the amp can draw before it fails.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There's this crazy thing called CEA ratings....:facepalm: Go read about them. Especially given that it's a reputable brand that we are speaking of. Not to mention that if an amplifier is tuned properly to match the subwoofer and speakers (I use a DMM everytime to check how much power is actually running) then you'll know what the maximum current draw will be of the added audio system along with average. 

Do you know how factory electrical systems are designed? The alternator is designed to power every accessory in the vehicle at 80% capacity. Soooo if a factory alternator is 100A, everything in the car on, is supposed to be around 80A. Leaving 20A of headroom AFTER every accessory.

IIRC the new jettas have a 160A alternator. I could be wrong. Yes a H.O. alternator may be in order, but do the appropriate steps. If the big 3 isn't done, it's not going to mean much when you're trying to suck a milkshake through a coffee stirrer.

Love trolls.


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## RonPopeil (Apr 26, 2012)

NFrazier said:


> There's this crazy thing called CEA ratings....:facepalm: Go read about them. Especially given that it's a reputable brand that we are speaking of. Not to mention that if an amplifier is tuned properly to match the subwoofer and speakers (I use a DMM everytime to check how much power is actually running) then you'll know what the maximum current draw will be of the added audio system along with average.
> 
> Do you know how factory electrical systems are designed? The alternator is designed to power every accessory in the vehicle at 80% capacity. Soooo if a factory alternator is 100A, everything in the car on, is supposed to be around 80A. Leaving 20A of headroom AFTER every accessory.
> 
> ...


love trolls? you're a moron. this guy came in and said he's adding over 100 amps of draw to his car, according to your own math, and is concerned with lights dimming. also, according to you, the kid's 160 amp alt is already at 80% capacity without a stereo. 160 *.8 = 128 amps of draw or 32 amps of over head. the first thing you told him to do was upgrade his wiring. what wiring is going to give him more current? the kid needs a HO alt.

two, not all amps are created equal. AB amps are notoriously inefficient wasting about half the power they draw. even some class D amps are power hungry (zapco C2K, JL HD). rather than worry about how many watts it can put out after amplification worry about how much it can draw off your car. how? well how many amps can it draw before it blows a fuse. alpine probably doesn't want their gear to break so if they're saying it can hold two 45a fuses then 90a is a good figure to start with. 

take RMS with a grain of salt. music isn't a constant draw. you'll never know where your RMS draw is because it fluctuates constantly. worry about safely powering your gear.


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## RonPopeil (Apr 26, 2012)

BassNotes said:


> No, that would be just a total of the fuses' capacities and not an indicator of what the amps would draw.


while technically you're sentence is correct what you're missing is that if the amp tries to draw more than the fuse can handle the fuse blows and the amp cuts off. so, yes, the fuse rating is indicative of an amps drawing ability because the fuse prevents the amp from drawing enough power to fry itself.


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

RonPopeil said:


> love trolls? you're a moron. this guy came in and said he's adding over 100 amps of draw to his car, according to your own math, and is concerned with lights dimming. also, according to you, the kid's 160 amp alt is already at 80% capacity without a stereo. 160 *.8 = 128 amps of draw or 32 amps of over head. the first thing you told him to do was upgrade his wiring. what wiring is going to give him more current? the kid needs a HO alt.


LOL. Do you know what causes lights to dim? He should get a capacitor too right? LOL. I guess you're unfamiliar with how wiring works. The factory wiring for the alternator on the vehicle is ~4-8 gauge of not the greatest quality wiring. So yea you're alternator may have a rating of 160A, but it's getting choked by the inability for the wiring to carry the current adequately.

Once again that's what the manufacturer gives to support all of the accessories in the car, not what the constant charge is from the car's factory electricals. :facepalm:



> two, not all amps are created equal. AB amps are notoriously inefficient wasting about half the power they draw. even some class D amps are power hungry (zapco C2K, JL HD). rather than worry about how many watts it can put out after amplification worry about how much it can draw off your car. how? well how many amps can it draw before it blows a fuse. alpine probably doesn't want their gear to break so if they're saying it can hold two 45a fuses then 90a is a good figure to start with.


I guess you failed to read what I put earlier about efficiency. You do know that as a total efficiency rating the PDX amplifiers (which the OP is using) are 80-90% efficient?



> take RMS with a grain of salt. music isn't a constant draw. you'll never know where your RMS draw is because it fluctuates constantly. worry about safely powering your gear.


RMS power is a starting point. If you tune your amplifiers properly you'll know the maximum output of the amplifier(s) you are using. For instance, I *KNOW * that my mono block is going to put out a maximum of 1321W because I tuned it, I know the figures, I did the math. I *KNOW* my 4 channel is going to produce 111W because of the same.

Music is dynamic, which means the duty cycle of the wave is ever changing. Does that mean that you can't KNOW the maximum current draw? No. If you have the proper tools and you know what you're doing you can KNOW exactly what your system will draw.

Am I saying the OP is not going to run into issues where he has an inadequacy in current draw? No. If you read everything you'd know that, once again, my first suggestions are going to be a cheaper option to the $600-800 alternator. Not to mention he may find that 1200W RMS on the sub channel is way too much and not tune it that high.

Do the big 3 with high quality wire.


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## hollywood084 (Feb 9, 2010)

NFrazier said:


> Do the big 3 with high quality wire.


And get a good HO Alternator.


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

hollywood084 said:


> And get a good HO Alternator.


And then enjoy your added excess of amperage that may be used < 10% of the time.


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## hollywood084 (Feb 9, 2010)

NFrazier said:


> And then enjoy your added excess of amperage that may be used < 10% of the time.


You don't give up do you? Even if that amp is only pulling half of it's max output, let's say 50a for sake of argument (which will probably be normal conditions, and assuming max draw is ~100+a) he will still go over his alternators output even if it's not powering everything possible on the car. And if it is powering everything possible in the car, he can sit back and watch the light show.

This car is only going to pull what it needs from the alternator, so you aren't necessarily going to have an "excess" of amperage all the time. I have a 200a alternator which replaced my stock 120a and my lights still dim. Granted, my amp is rumored to pull ~200a itself, at max output. Is my amp constantly pulling 200a? Hell no, I probably run the sub at


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

hollywood084 said:


> You don't give up do you? Even if that amp is only pulling half of it's max output, let's say 50a for sake of argument (which will probably be normal conditions, and assuming max draw is ~100+a) he will still go over his alternators output even if it's not powering everything possible on the car. And if it is powering everything possible in the car, he can sit back and watch the light show.
> 
> This car is only going to pull what it needs from the alternator, so you aren't necessarily going to have an "excess" of amperage all the time. I have a 200a alternator which replaced my stock 120a and my lights still dim. Granted, my amp is rumored to pull ~200a itself, at max output. Is my amp constantly pulling 200a? Hell no, I probably run the sub at


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## hollywood084 (Feb 9, 2010)

NFrazier said:


> ere's been plenty of cars that I/we have done without changing out the factory alternator that has worked perfectly fine for years running in the 1k-2k range.


Haha go figure, i pretty much had that exact scenario on an old Beretta years ago. 80a alt, 2k rms amp. Never could afford a HO back then.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

RonPopeil said:


> while technically you're sentence is correct what you're missing is that if the amp tries to draw more than the fuse can handle the fuse blows and the amp cuts off. so, yes, the fuse rating is indicative of an amps drawing ability because the fuse prevents the amp from drawing enough power to fry itself.


What _you're _missing is that fuses are protection devices. A manufacturer (a smart one, anyway) will choose a fuse rating that is high enough to not blow in even the extreme worst-case range of normal usage, but low enough to blow quickly if a fault occurs so that any damage is limited.

A 45A fuse suggests that the actual worst-case current draw is probably in the 20–25A range. Two 45A fuses, I'd figure the worst case probably would be in the 40–50A range.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

hollywood084 said:


> And get a good HO Alternator.


It probably isn't necessary.


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## hollywood084 (Feb 9, 2010)

BassNotes said:


> What _you're _missing is that fuses are protection devices. A manufacturer (a smart one, anyway) will choose a fuse rating that is high enough to not blow in even the extreme worst-case range of normal usage, but low enough to blow quickly if a fault occurs so that any damage is limited.
> 
> A 45A fuse suggests that the actual worst-case current draw is probably in the 20–25A range. Two 45A fuses, I'd figure the worst case probably would be in the 40–50A range.


yes, but there is more to it than that. http://www.bcae1.com click on fuses in the side bar then scroll down to fuse opening time.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

hollywood084 said:


> yes, but there is more to it than that. http://www.bcae1.com click on fuses in the side bar then scroll down to fuse opening time.


The first sentence is certainly true: " From my experience (25+ years in the amp repair business), it seems that most people don't fully understand what a fuse does and why it's necessary."


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## hollywood084 (Feb 9, 2010)

BassNotes said:


> The first sentence is certainly true: " From my experience (25+ years in the amp repair business), it seems that most people don't fully understand what a fuse does and why it's necessary."


The only thing I meant by that is your numbers may have been a little off.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

hollywood084 said:


> The only thing I meant by that is your numbers may have been a little off.


And yours weren't?


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## hollywood084 (Feb 9, 2010)

BassNotes said:


> And yours weren't?


i already said they were off...examples. but they werent numbers that would never show up during normal usage. just pointing out that a fuse shouldnt blow with tbe numbers you provided, according to the site.


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## RonPopeil (Apr 26, 2012)

jesus christ!

look, amp makers put fuses on their gear to protect their products. therefore, an amp will have a conservative value fuse to protect the amp from blowing. so how much current does your amp draw? how many amps can the fuse hold before it blows? 

done. that's your draw. that multiplied by your alt's output voltage is NOT your RMS. at best a car audio amp is 90% efficient.

NFrazier, stop posting. you're misleading people and giving people the opposite of what they're here for.


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

RonPopeil said:


> jesus christ!
> 
> look, amp makers put fuses on their gear to protect their products. therefore, an amp will have a conservative value fuse to protect the amp from blowing. so how much current does your amp draw? how many amps can the fuse hold before it blows?
> 
> ...


I'm all set thanks. I've helped out quite a few people on the forum with the TRUTH. Thanks for your concern though. :thumbdown:

Nothing I have said is in any way misleading. Now you on the other hand, that's a different story.

You're right though. Just look at the fuses, that will be your current draw. :facepalm:

You're statements are scattered at best. You _do_ know how ohm's law works right? It's all relative. You can't say that the actual power output of the amplifier has no correlation to the current it's going to draw...


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

hollywood084 said:


> i already said they were off...examples. but they werent numbers that would never show up during normal usage. just pointing out that a fuse shouldnt blow with tbe numbers you provided, according to the site.


I think maybe you'd better read up on what fuses do and how they work.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

RonPopeil said:


> jesus christ!
> 
> look, amp makers put fuses on their gear to protect their products. therefore, an amp will have a conservative value fuse to protect the amp from blowing. so how much current does your amp draw? how many amps can the fuse hold before it blows?
> 
> ...


Fuse rating draw.

True that draw * Valt is not "RMS". But Valt (sorry, apparently we can't do subscripts) is a constant, so what remains to be determined is the current draw.

"RMS" is actually a method of measuring AC voltage or current--not power.


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## hollywood084 (Feb 9, 2010)

sw


BassNotes said:


> I think maybe you'd better read up on what fuses do and how they work.


I already have. I was the one who linked the site. I didnt even bring up fuses. I dont even remember the point i was tryiing to make anymore :/. Maybe the point i was trying to make was not very clear. Or maybe i just misunderstood the guys post when he brought up the fuses. I dont even know what you all think i am implying anymore. You just keep tellng me to read about fuses, and all i did was tell someone else to, mainly because it was a great, informational site...

But regardless of whatever i was trying to say, this ongoing nonsense of who is right and wrong, when bcae1.com ends all arguments, obviously isnt about the OP anymore, so its just wasting space.


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

NFrazier said:


> The wire may look like 4 gauge, but the amount of copper, never mind oxygen free copper, is less than full spec 4awg.


I'd expect that it's a metric wire size; 16 mm^2 (7 strands) would be 31580 circular mils, slightly smaller than 5 AWG, and the next standard size larger, 25 mm^2 (7 or 19 strands), would be 49340 circular mils, a bit larger than 4 AWG.


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## RonPopeil (Apr 26, 2012)

NFrazier said:


> I'm all set thanks. I've helped out quite a few people on the forum with the TRUTH. Thanks for your concern though. :thumbdown:
> 
> Nothing I have said is in any way misleading. Now you on the other hand, that's a different story.
> 
> ...


:screwy:

OP: I want to add over 100 amps of draw to my car and i'm worried about my lights dimming
NFrazier: just upgrade a couple grounds and a power wire off your alt.


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## therockdrummer (Mar 23, 2007)

Thanks for everyones input.

I have it all installed and I have absolutely no problems with the lights dimming whatsoever.



This thread is why I hate car audio forums. Can't we just listen to the music?


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## BassNotes (Mar 16, 2005)

RonPopeil said:


> :screwy:
> 
> OP: I want to add over 100 amps of draw to my car and i'm worried about my lights dimming
> NFrazier: just upgrade a couple grounds and a power wire off your alt.


Over 100 amps? You must be thinking of another OP.


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## NFrazier (Jul 22, 2006)

therockdrummer said:


> Thanks for everyones input.
> 
> I have it all installed and I have absolutely no problems with the lights dimming whatsoever.
> 
> ...


That's impossible! According to the other two (not myself and BassNotes) you need a H.O. alternator....be careful your car will explode soon. :laugh:


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## hollywood084 (Feb 9, 2010)

therockdrummer said:


> Thanks for everyones input.
> 
> I have it all installed and I have absolutely no problems with the lights dimming whatsoever.
> 
> ...


Nice :thumbup:


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