# Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

Here are the promised results of my upgraded brake test.
Car: GTI 1.8T, ko4, 3" exhaust, Quaife, springs/shocks/rear bar, 205/55-16 Falken Azenis.
Previous Brake Setup: 11.3" OEM Rotors, Ferodo DS2000 at all 4 corners, Stainless Lines, ATE super blue fluid
New Setup: 12.3" Slotted TT rotors, Ferodo DS2500 up front, Mintex RedBox at rear, Stainless lines, ATE super blue fluid
Results: The brakes definitely worked and felt better. It was my first session of the year, so I wasn't going as fast as I could, but I was working the brakes to test their limits. I could get *slight* lockup when braking full-on after the front straight(Approx. 120-60), but the car was completely controllable. I have to say that using the Redbox out back vs. the DS2000 made the car more controllable as I did not feel the rear lock up once as I had in previous sessions.
The problems I was having with hard pedal and/or uneven brake feel entering the left hander after big bend were mostly eliminated. What remains is due to the camber change of the pavement in that section of track. That was a big plus.
I can't say that brakes wowed me though. I had 4 sessions, all of which were cut short(someone dropped oil in one, one of my IC tubes blew off in another, and I had limp mode in yet another), so again, I did not beat on them properly.







They just did the job that was intended. I am going back to LRP in 2 weeks and will post further results. After that, I'll probably switch BACK to 11.3s and see what happens


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## '89gli (Sep 2, 1999)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (tyrolkid)*

Did you feel any decrease in performance by going to the larger and I assume heavier brake setup. Acceleration, turn-in, ect?
Why did you choose Redbox for the rear?
Good info, thanks. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Crash6 (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock ('89gli)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## jamesb (Mar 14, 2001)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (Crash6)*

Good deal man, glad they balenced things out for you. 
I have to say the 11.3s still hold up, I have no complaints or issues with them ever, I run porterfield R4s front pads and EBC green in the rear, and I could go so much later into the braking zones of VIR then I know I could running greens up front. 
But I been considering 12.3's but it depends on if they can clear my race rims, otherwise ill stay where I am and work on my skill over my need to brake any later.


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## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (tyrolkid)*

Which do you think made the biggest difference? The change from 11.3 to 12.3, or the change from DS2000 to DS2500? Were you running the same wheels/tires? Any additional brake ducting?


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## GTiandrewK (Jan 12, 2003)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (tyrolkid)*

Thanks! Exactly what I was looking for!
So what now? Where are all the naysayers!?


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## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (GTiandrewK)*

quote:[HR][/HR]So what now? Where are all the naysayers!?[HR][/HR]​Hardly a glowing recommendation for the 12.3" rotors. Just nothing bad to say. Several questions remain unanswered ... hold yer horses ....


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## GTiandrewK (Jan 12, 2003)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (f1forkvr6)*

LOL,

Now imagine 13.1inch ECS tuning kit working for you! Which weights less than stock 11.3" rotors.
Well, I think it is done game


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## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (GTiandrewK)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Well, I think it is done game







[HR][/HR]​Then you must have gotten the answers to these questions privately ... 
"Which do you think made the biggest difference? The change from 11.3 to 12.3, or the change from DS2000 to DS2500? Were you running the same wheels/tires? Any additional brake ducting?"
Please share any insight you've gained after analyzing the above ...








Just chill for a bit ... let the test speak for themselves.
Besides - we still haven't seen any before/after lap times ...


[Modified by f1forkvr6, 12:45 AM 3-29-2003]


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## Racer_X (Jul 14, 2002)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (tyrolkid, GTiandrewK)*

*tyrolkid* said:quote:[HR][/HR]Previous Brake Setup: 11.3" OEM Rotors, Ferodo DS2000 at all 4 corners, Stainless Lines, ATE super blue fluid
New Setup: 12.3" Slotted TT rotors, Ferodo DS2500 up front, Mintex RedBox at rear, Stainless lines, ATE super blue fluid
Results: The brakes definitely worked and felt better. ...
The problems I was having with hard pedal and/or uneven brake feel entering the left hander after big bend were mostly eliminated. What remains is due to the camber change of the pavement in that section of track. That was a big plus.
I can't say that brakes wowed me though. ... They just did the job that was intended.[HR][/HR]​I'm glad that things are improved. The water is a little murky about what made the improvement, though. You have 3 changes to the hardware, and maybe one slight change to driving style (suggested on the other thread). It's tough to say which things made the most difference and which made less difference, no difference, or slightly offset the gains. 
To explain the improvements, my money is on the DS-2500/Mintex red box combo as being the dominant factor in the improvements. I doubt the 12.3" rotors hurt the situation much, but I don't think they helped much either.
I'd be really interested in a back to back test between the rotors with everything else as constant as possible. If you were going to Road Atlanta (or even Savannah or Kershaw or VIR) I'd probably volunteer for crew duty to help out. Lime Rock is just to friggin far away for me to make the offer there.
*GTiandrewK* saidquote:[HR][/HR]Thanks! Exactly what I was looking for!
So what now? Where are all the naysayers!?
...
LOL,
Now imagine 13.1inch ECS tuning kit working for you! Which weights less than stock 11.3" rotors.
Well, I think it is done game








[HR][/HR]​I think for your priorities, the 13.1" ECS kit is perfect. Your top priorities seem to be:
1) Spend $600
2) Get something that looks really cool
The ECS kit is a perfect match for you.
Others might find the DS-2500/Mintex red box combination much better. I've got an e-mail acquaintance who has been having brake balance problems and fade issues on his New Beetle turbo. He's about to try that pad combo, and I'm pretty sure from tyrolkid's results that it's going to help him a lot.


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (f1forkvr6)*

Andrew-
Just go out and buy the 12.3s already. You know you want to, and you're looking for any shred of evidence that gives you an excuse. 
I am not done testing the 12.3s. I even said I will go back to 11.3s to eliminate some of the variables(brake pad compound). 
The same wheels/tires were used for the before an after test. The only variables were the pads. (DS2000 all around before, DS2500 front, Mintex rear after). I can't honestly say how much of a difference the pads made vs. the rotors. From what I can gather from Ferodo, the difference between the 2000 and 2500 should only be in feel(different Cf) as opposed to fade resistance(close to same temps for both..please correct me if I'm wrong with my assumptions). Given that, the only real variable is the rotors. The car definitely better with the new rotors, but as I learn more about driving this car, and more about Lime Rock, I'm beginning to see that my previous braking problems were due to variables OTHER than the braking system(camber changes in pavement, my driving style, etc.) It will require a few more track days to sort this out, and I will keep everybody posted. I'm back at LRP in two weeks, and then back to Watkins Glen for the ultimate test on May 19.
Cheers.
-Mike P


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## GTiandrewK (Jan 12, 2003)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (tyrolkid)*

13.1inch ECS tuning rotor on order








Thanks for all your info.


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## bxr140 (Jul 18, 2002)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (tyrolkid)*

tyrol, 
thanks for the honest comparo between the 11.3's and 12.3's. even with the variables, its good information (with the proper warnings attached) for those who actually cared about the results in the first place. 
many props. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ECS Tuning-Tom (Oct 2, 2001)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (bxr140)*

While the 12.3" upgrade is a worthwhile upgrade there are a few things about our 13.1" kit that make it superior to all 11.3" & 12.3"
-Big weight savings.
-Rotors are directional unlike the 11.3" & the 12.3"
-Pedal feel is dramatically improved over the 11.3's, when we were testing the kit this was possibly the most surprising & unexpected result that we noticed.
-Rotor is a floating design which gives it the capability to expend & then contract without any warpage


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## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (bxr140)*

quote:[HR][/HR]thanks for the honest comparo between the 11.3's and 12.3's. even with the variables, its good information (with the proper warnings attached) for those who actually cared about the results in the first place. 
many props. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif [HR][/HR]​We owe you a couple of














for taking the time to do some testing (okay, to have a bit of fun at LRP







), and the timely followup posts. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Also props to ECS for staying above the fray in some of these threads ... must've been tough at times. Class Act http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


[Modified by f1forkvr6, 8:42 PM 3-29-2003]


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## Racer_X (Jul 14, 2002)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (ECS Tuning-Tom)*

quote:[HR][/HR]While the 12.3" upgrade is a worthwhile upgrade there are a few things about our 13.1" kit that make it superior to all 11.3" & 12.3"
-Big weight savings.[HR][/HR]​That's actually a big positive for that kit. Most "upgrades" pack on the unsprung weight and the rotating inertia. A true upgrade will reduce both.
quote:[HR][/HR]-Rotors are directional unlike the 11.3" & the 12.3"
-Pedal feel is dramatically improved over the 11.3's, when we were testing the kit this was possibly the most surprising & unexpected result that we noticed.[HR][/HR]​Actually, those two are related. The difference between directional offset vanes and radial vanes in vented rotors is about as big as the difference between vented rotors and solid rotors. That pumping action from the offset vanes moves a heck of a lot of air through the rotor.


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (ECS Tuning-Tom)*

quote:[HR][/HR]While the 12.3" upgrade is a worthwhile upgrade there are a few things about our 13.1" kit that make it superior to all 11.3" & 12.3"
-Big weight savings.
-Rotors are directional unlike the 11.3" & the 12.3"
-Pedal feel is dramatically improved over the 11.3's, when we were testing the kit this was possibly the most surprising & unexpected result that we noticed.
-Rotor is a floating design which gives it the capability to expend & then contract without any warpage[HR][/HR]​Make them fit under 16" wheels, and you'll be my hero








The Powerslot rotors I'm using are directional as well.


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## dcomiskey (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (tyrolkid)*

Tyrol,
Do you know of any other groups going to Watkins Glen this year?? The SCDA dates are sold out already, so I'm kinda pissed. I'll be hitting LRP many times this year (although my dilemma would be solved if I had a job....), and I was looking forward to the Glen in May.


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## bxr140 (Jul 18, 2002)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (ECS Tuning-Tom)*

quote:[HR][/HR]While the 12.3" upgrade is a worthwhile upgrade there are a few things about our 13.1" kit that make it superior to all 11.3" & 12.3"[HR][/HR]​any hard numbers that make them superior? like before/after braking distances, lap times, etc?








quote:[HR][/HR]-Pedal feel is dramatically improved over the 11.3's, when we were testing the kit this was possibly the most surprising & unexpected result that we noticed.[HR][/HR]​what were the other reults?
also, since i'm curious and too lazy to do a search, what are the weight differences between, say, an 11", 11.3, 12.3, and your 13.1" rotors? 
changing the subject a little, but still along the lines of upgrades, i'm sure there are quite a few people that would seriously consider a lightweight/two piece 11.3" rotor over stock replacements. i realize i'm in the minority with my corrado's 5 lug 11" brakes so I won't push that (not to mention the fact that the money is in the pockets of the A4 kids these days) but i would guess there would be a very large market for the 11.3's--basically, the "rest" of the guys here that don't already swoon over your products. not everyone wants to spend hundreds of dollars on an "upgrade" that doesnt really upgrade anything, and i know i for one would consider the [very easy] 11" to 11.3" 'upgrade' if it involved a significantly lighter rotor.
come to think of it, along those same lines, i think there would also be a huge market for lightweight stock sized rear rotors as well... 
just thinking out loud...


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (dcomiskey)*

Dcomiskey-
May 19 at WG with http://www.tracquest.com
come with us!


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## '89gli (Sep 2, 1999)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (bxr140)*

quote:[HR][/HR]changing the subject a little, but still along the lines of upgrades, i'm sure there are quite a few people that would seriously consider a lightweight/two piece 11.3" rotor over stock replacements. i realize i'm in the minority with my corrado's 5 lug 11" brakes so I won't push that (not to mention the fact that the money is in the pockets of the A4 kids these days) but i would guess there would be a very large market for the 11.3's--basically, the "rest" of the guys here that don't already swoon over your products. not everyone wants to spend hundreds of dollars on an "upgrade" that doesnt really upgrade anything, and i know i for one would consider the [very easy] 11" to 11.3" 'upgrade' if it involved a significantly lighter rotor.
come to think of it, along those same lines, i think there would also be a huge market for lightweight stock sized rear rotors as well... [HR][/HR]​I'm with you. Would be nice to see two piece rotors available in stock sizes.http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


[Modified by '89gli, 6:22 PM 3-30-2003]


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## dcomiskey (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (tyrolkid)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Dcomiskey-
May 19 at WG with http://www.tracquest.com
come with us![HR][/HR]​Ooh, OK! I'm not happy about the price, but this will be my only shot until September. Thanks!!


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (dcomiskey)*

The price is well worth it...Tracquest runs a topnotch program....plus great dinner, wine tasting etc included.....quality weekend.....


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## jamesb (Mar 14, 2001)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (tyrolkid)*

man that does seem like a sweet setup they got there.
ill stick to local tracks tough BSR and NASA.

EDIT: yeah tahts my issue with all big kits. get over a 12.3 and my lightweight 16's are useless. Since I like the track and feel of the 16 vs running a 17 on my mk4 this is a constant. So at this point I been playing the pad game, and its been good for the most part, but I suspect int he next 2-3 months ill be running 11.3 or 12.3 with willwood calipers and performance friction 83 compound. 
If they made the mk4 backings I would use them now, they are inexpensive and the pad compound is a great street track mix.


[Modified by jamesb, 11:24 AM 3-31-2003]


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## rxheaven (Jun 14, 2000)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (ECS Tuning-Tom)*

I say give MikeP a free set of those brakes and have him give us real impressions of them.








Then you can say "Tuner Tested Track approved"









[Modified by rxheaven, 5:38 PM 4-3-2003]


[Modified by rxheaven, 5:40 PM 4-3-2003]


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## ECS Tuning-Tom (Oct 2, 2001)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (rxheaven)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I say give MikeP a free set of those brakes and have him give us real impressions of them.








Then you can say "Tuner Tested Track approved"








[HR][/HR]​You would be shocked what kind of on-car road-testing & abuse we put our brakes through here before they are released. We seriously abuse the brakes, we even do all the no-no's in braking, like get the brakes almost red hot & park the car.


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## Electron Man (Sep 21, 1999)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (ECS Tuning-Tom)*

quote:[HR][/HR]...get the brakes almost red hot & park the car[HR][/HR]​Destruction testing (or close to it). Good that this sort of abuse is being handled by ECS before a product is released. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## rxheaven (Jun 14, 2000)

*Re: Results: 12.3" rotor test at Lime Rock (ECS Tuning-Tom)*

Great!


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