# My No Horse$hit Water Meth Dyno Experiment



## totheMax (Jun 11, 2008)

In my attempt to validate the claims that water/meth injection provides added power.. I did a little dyno experiment.

Unfortunately, the Left Coast Diesel dyno could not get the torque numbers so this result is based strictly on HP output.

I got these results with my 03 ALH w/ a RC6 tune, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head, 17/22 turbo, 11 mm pump, R520's nozzles and Devil's Own WMI 250 psi set up w/ a progressive boost controller set to start spraying at 15 psi and reach max spray at 25 psi.

I ran 25% methanol solution.

I did four runs

Run No.2 was with a D03 W/M nozzle and produced 216.89 HP and MAX EGT's of 1190

Run No.3 was with the w/m turned off and produced 214.76 HP and MAX EGT's of 1600

Run No.4 was with a D04 W/M nozzle and produced 216.48 HP and MAX EGT's of 1180

Run No.5 was with a no w/m and some ghetto NOS spraying in the airbox and produced 278.18 HP and MAX EGT's of 1400

The dyno ... Ghetto NOS run  the run on fuel only 

Based on my no Horse$hit experiment, and with all other things beings equal, my conclusions are:

1- WMI has negligible effects on HP output

2- Significant beneficial effects on EGT's

3- My optimum nozzle size is D03. (why go with a larger nozzle if I get essentially the same cooling effects)

You make your own conclusions...


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## Krieger (May 5, 2009)

Yeah, I gained a stunning 1 WHP with a D03 nozzle with my DVC-30 kit. :laugh:


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

I am not questioning your or your tuners knowledge. Did you do any tuning specifically for the W/M injection? i.e. increase boost, lean the AFR, etc? Just curious, thanks.


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## naemcivic (Aug 22, 2010)

^^this guy is running diesel. his tuning would be different from a gasoline engine.


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## ryan mills (May 3, 2002)

Interesting. I'll add my findings as well....I've picked up a whopping 1mph in the quarter mile running methanol. I want to know where this "up to 180 hp at the wheels!!!!!" came from. Probably a 600 cu in blown engine without intercoolers/aftercoolers running 87 octane.


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## naemcivic (Aug 22, 2010)

haha, 180+ HP? just from adding CH303 is just ridiculous. maybe on my Class 8 Peterbilt or Frigeghtliner big rig ok. not on our VW.


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## naemcivic (Aug 22, 2010)

actually adding 1mph trap speed on the 1/4 isn't bad at all.


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## truckinwagen (Nov 30, 2007)

the extra power seen on a diesel with water meth comes from the extra fuel that lowered EGT allows.

if you leave your fueling alone there is little power increase, but if you increase fueling to bring EGT back up to where is was, you can gain alot of power


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## 30rMKIV (May 14, 2010)

truckinwagen said:


> the extra power seen on a diesel with water meth comes from the extra fuel that lowered EGT allows.
> 
> if you leave your fueling alone there is little power increase, but if you increase fueling to bring EGT back up to where is was, you can gain alot of power


x2 :thumbup: Strapping on a meth kit to your car will show you little if any gains without the proper tuning for it. The whole point of meth is to allow you to push your car to the limits by adding more boost and timing while still running your average day to day pump gas  Running meth without the proper tuning is like slaping a GT30r on stock car and claiming you only gained 25whp, everything is in the tuning :beer:


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## totheMax (Jun 11, 2008)

truckinwagen said:


> the extra power seen on a diesel with water meth comes from the extra fuel that lowered EGT allows.
> 
> if you leave your fueling alone there is little power increase, but if you increase fueling to bring EGT back up to where is was, you can gain alot of power


Yes, I agree with your concept. I was just proving that ALL OTHER THINGS REMAINING EQUAL W/M does not do Jack $hit for added whp. It does lower egt's but has a negligent effect on HP. It does allow us to raise fueling thereby producing more HP. 

Also one does not really need a re-tune just to lower the IQ and put more fuel in... Just a minor setting of the vagcom will do that...


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

totheMax said:


> Yes, I agree with your concept. I was just proving that ALL OTHER THINGS REMAINING EQUAL W/M does not do Jack $hit for added whp. It does lower egt's but has a negligent effect on HP. It does allow us to raise fueling thereby producing more HP.
> 
> Also one does not really need a re-tune just to lower the IQ and put more fuel in... Just a minor setting of the vagcom will do that...


So if I understand you correctly, you are saying you have proved what all of the W/M injection sellers have openly said - If you install a W/M injection system and do not tune for it, you will see little to no gain and possible even a loss.

So are you now going to tune for it and post those results?


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## totheMax (Jun 11, 2008)

Fast VW said:


> So if I understand you correctly, you are saying you have proved what all of the W/M injection sellers have openly said - If you install a W/M injection system and do not tune for it, you will see little to no gain and possible even a loss.
> 
> So are you now going to tune for it and post those results?


That's not a bad idea for the next time I dyno... I ran out of time last time and was trying to find out the optimal nozzle size for the turbo I was running... found it at a D03. All I was changing is the nozzle size and the water meth on or off. This is the results I posted.

Since then I have a 2260vk turbo kit under fabrication and since it will deliver a ton more air and a high boost (+- 38 psi) so I will have to start all over again.... But that's not a bad idea for the nxt time .. after I identify best nozzle size, I can run the dyno with different fueling to see what kinds of curve and HP output I get... however, with that turbo, I will be maxing out my 11 mm pump and will most likely have to go to a 12 mm pump... so I may not be able to increase fueling that much... Plus the 2260vk can take some pretty high EGT's and the benefits of w/m may be not as good as with my current turbo..

The thing that gets me is statements like "Buy this w/m set up and you'll get 15% more HP" ... That statement is misleading to noobs and is complete horse$hit.

A more accurate and true statement would be... If you install the w/m, it will lower your EGT's significantly, thereby allowing you to run more fuel and put out more HP... That may necessitate larger injectors, larger fuel pump, lower IQ or re-mapping. 

Many of the ads I see out there and the posts by w/m vendors, showing dynos with Vs without w/m imply that only putting the w/m will get you an added 15% HP output.... total BS....


The other BS is the 15% increase in power they claim to deliver... I really have to see that... Using a 50/50 mix, the most that I have seen is in the 5 to 10 HP for a +-200 hp car ... that's a far stretch from the 15% claimed...

If anybody has data.... not just words... .to support this 15% claim... pls post it and we can talk facts... I am very open to reconsider my position on this as long as it's backed up by facts and just words or claims by w/m vendors. I base my opinion on my and my buddy's dyno's.... not on the claims made by sellers of w/m set up.


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## Fast VW (Sep 24, 2002)

The actual data you have posted here is greatly appreciated! Anymore that you can provide (i.e. after being tuned for the W/M) would also be great. Thanks.:thumbup:


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## totheMax (Jun 11, 2008)

Fast VW said:


> The actual data you have posted here is greatly appreciated! Anymore that you can provide (i.e. after being tuned for the W/M) would also be great. Thanks.:thumbup:


 Tnx partner... I will do that for sure after I get my new turbo... I will try to run a few different IQ settings and vary the fuel and see that what kind of EGT's and power output I get..


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

"If you install the w/m, it will lower your EGT's significantly, thereby allowing you to run more fuel and put out more HP... That may necessitate larger injectors, larger fuel pump, lower IQ or re-mapping."

That would apply to only people who's running Diesel..no? That statement would be lying to those using gas...no?

Oh...from the Devil's Own thread.....
_"•Proper tuning is required to achieve maximum results"_


You're taking the ad the wrong way. Did you ever think that they meant 10-15% add is from indirect HP gains. The ad was copied & pasted from Devil's Own i'm sure and it being a popular product, i'm sure they've done a boatload of R&D.

I'm not trying to be a dick or anything but from what i've read, i never took it as i would instantly gain HP just by slapping it on. Also, If you are a noob and think that, that person is an asshat. If you're at the point where you would need W/M, you aren't a noob anymore...agree?

No different then say a standalone. technically if you bolt it in, it give you up to 50whp (example). Common sense will tell you that there's some tunning involved to reach that 50whp.

Don't be so quick to jump in a paid advertisers thread and dispute something they posted which you took the wrong way.

I still can't believe you thought it would give you instant power.....HAHAHAHA..:laugh::laugh:


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## totheMax (Jun 11, 2008)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> .......
> I still can't believe you thought it would give you instant power.....HAHAHAHA..:laugh::laugh:


How did you figure that ???? If you take a look at my mods, you will see that I did not get W/M for added power.

I only got W/M because of the lower EGT's it provides.

I just get pissed off at the BS claims made by the W/M vendors... like "this will give you 15% more power" and that kind of BS.

My experiment was just to prove that that claim is complete Horse$hit. 

ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, and simply adding water meth, provides negligible added power.... not 15%.

Any by the way... "•Proper tuning is required to achieve maximum results" I doubt that Proper tuning + Water Meth along will give you 15% more power.... 

You will also need a bigger turbo, bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, larger air piping, both TIP and IC piping ALONG with the proper tuning...


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## erice1984 (May 10, 2010)

to stay on the safe side, make sure you ALWAYS have enough water/meth mixture on hand and make sure you have a tune with and without in the unfortunate event you don't have access to any mixture, so you can get your a$$ to wherever to get some.

I didn't see any mention of this but, methanol increases the effective octane rating, added water acts to cool the combustion chamber rather than typical "fuel dumping" (running rich) tuners use in gasoline engines to keep them cool.

I have no idea how the octane rating affects diesels if it is the same or if its equivalent is cetane rating. I am new to diesels. I do know that diesels are opposite of gasoline, add more fuel in gasoline engine to keep EGTs low. Diesels you remove fuel to keep EGTs low.


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## veedubbinn (Jan 25, 2009)

talk to USRT about this them seem to be the most knowledgeable.


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## hodfolly (Jun 15, 2010)

w/m is such a rip off guys. in order to make power you have to tweek the timing, which will very day to day, gas station to gas station and is not worth it in the end. 

wanna make some real power???? 
lower AIT temps 
better fuel economy. 
greatly improved throttle responce. 

convert to a hybrid setup like w/m, except use propane. and i have been lucky going preturbo with the setup. 

wanna know something else, egt temps remained about the same, 
and no adjustments are needed, thats why there is 02 sensors...........


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## sledge0001 (Oct 7, 2007)

Well... I have dyno video proof to show that WHP can be made just from adding water and meth... 

Devils Own DVC-30 Progressive kit 50/50 mix. 

294WHP base dyno run now add water and meth... See Video for results... 





 

Now lets add some timing with water and meth... 





 
Net result water and meth alone gave me 19WHP.... 

And then 
6 degrees Timing + water and meth gave me 51WHP...


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## srgtlord (Jun 4, 2010)

The old ww2 planes used water injection to increase horsepower, so this isnt too surprising.


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## hodfolly (Jun 15, 2010)

propane is cheap and is 110 oct. vw calls it bi fuel in there 2011 european cars. and if w/m added that much hp, propane will add 2x.


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## scott66 (Jul 5, 2003)

hodfolly said:


> propane is cheap and is 110 oct. vw calls it bi fuel in there 2011 european cars. and if w/m added that much hp, propane will add 2x.


are you sure of your statement? Propaine is predominately used in Diesel applications for fuel efficiancy and moderate to low HP gains. The is data out there for gas engines running propaine, but nothing to the tune of 2x more than W/I.


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## hodfolly (Jun 15, 2010)

its how you use it. and its not so much about w/m vs LPG, its more about how the montronic ecu will adapt too it. propane for some reason agrees 2x times better then water meth. not to mention the easy installation, low cost, improved fuel economy, lower ait temps, a greatly improved throttle responce and low end tq through redline, egt temps are fine,.

no pumps, no tuning, no bs, LPG, way to easy. 

not to mention im testing LPG preturbo,. .

my personal experiance with W/M was that it wasn't worth the effort. the engine just felt liked it bogged down or "vapor locked". i used vag com and gauges to test my setup out, and all i can say is that it works, but not well, and not worth doing to your engine.

LPG on the other hand, is a little more ideal, and the MPG increase is a nice bonus.


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## PernellGTI (Jan 1, 2010)

WAI does work, proven fact.... Even F1 cars used this in the past so there is no BS about this. The problem is not who advertise it but who buys it thinking they will have a rocket by only installing this, I believe if you are in for buying WAI, flashing your ECU, Exhaust blah blah blah is because you already know a bit about making HP. 

Also, 90% of us go and google $hit up all the time, WAI is not a power adder but allows you to make more Power by increasing timing, boost and so on and so forth.

So, for all those poor souls reading this searching for magic answers, yeah WAI helps A LOT, it will reduce your intake temps a lot, it will get rid of timing pull if well calibrated and it will allow you to turn that boost and timing up among others making you some power as a result.

I run an AEM kit on my GT28RS setup and thanks to it I was able to make extra 22 HP by tuning my engine on a Dyno.


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