# What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose?



## jean malicar (May 5, 2003)

What type of braking system would you choose?
Pics would also be great if you have any. 
Has anyone ever done an 8 or 6 piston front brake conversion?


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## collins_tc (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (jean malicar)*

ECS is coming out with a Stage 5 for Mk.4 cars - it's a six piston Porsche Cayenne caliper (Brembo). Prices aren't out yet, but my guess is around $1800-ish for the kit (calipers, pads, rotors, lines). Their other kits use Boxster or Boxster S calipers, and those are four piston. All in all, the ECS kits are a great value.
T.C.


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## ck_1.8T (Sep 5, 2004)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (collins_tc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *collins_tc* »_ECS is coming out with a Stage 5 for Mk.4 cars - it's a six piston Porsche Cayenne caliper (Brembo). Prices aren't out yet, but my guess is around $1800-ish for the kit (calipers, pads, rotors, lines). Their other kits use Boxster or Boxster S calipers, and those are four piston. All in all, the ECS kits are a great value.
T.C.

I've seen that... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







The rotors are 359mm from ECS as shown in ECS's home page and the caliper a 6-piston brembo as with other Porsches as well (911 GT3) as the Cayenne turbo I guess...








I hate that I recently installed the ECS stage 3 front kit and didn't know to wait for this one ...








The critical issue here is what kind of wheels will clear these giant brakes...







Will these fit in some 18" (for example ET=32) wheels without the need of spacers or will they require 19" wheels...??? The latter (19") will obviously limit the market's interest for this kit for 1.8T cars as very few of these wear 19" wheels...








Great kit otherwise ...







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by ck_1.8T at 2:11 PM 1-11-2005_


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## collins_tc (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (ck_1.8T)*

I would imagine that they would fit under 18" wheels. I know I have the Stage 2v2 upgrade with BBS RE wheels in 18x8 and an offset of et35 (see pics in signature link below). I have a *ton* of clearance. I don't have nearly as much with the stock Monte Carlo wheels. My guess is that they will make them to fit the same kind of wheels as their other kits. And like you, I wish I would have known about this back in July and I would have waited. I actually asked if it were possible to configure the B5 S4 Stage 4 (the new Stage 5 for us) to my car and they said no. Oh well, I'm *more* than happy with the 2v2 and 1R upgrades.








T.C.


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## jean malicar (May 5, 2003)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (collins_tc)*

Nice Red Jetta.. I will go with the 6-piston fronts and I don't know if they make porsche or brembo 4 piston rears.


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## CPISH (Apr 27, 2003)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (ck_1.8T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ck_1.8T* »_
I've seen that... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







The rotors are 359mm from ECS as shown in ECS's home page and the caliper a 6-piston brembo as with other Porsches as well (911 GT3) as the Cayenne turbo I guess...








I hate that I recently installed the ECS stage 3 front kit and didn't know to wait for this one ...








The critical issue here is what kind of wheels will clear these giant brakes...







Will these fit in some 18" (for example ET=32) wheels without the need of spacers or will they require 19" wheels...??? The latter (19") will obviously limit the market's interest for this kit for 1.8T cars as very few of these wear 19" wheels...








Great kit otherwise ...







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Modified by ck_1.8T at 2:11 PM 1-11-2005_

you should be happy with the stage 3 kit, I would love to own that kit, how do you find it?


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## ck_1.8T (Sep 5, 2004)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (CPISH)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CPISH* »_
you should be happy with the stage 3 kit, I would love to own that kit, how do you find it? 

Great ...!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Astonishing stoping distances from whatever (60, 100, 160, ...m/h) and excellent pedal feel...







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Byron N. (Oct 20, 2003)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (jean malicar)*

What are your main objectives? If we are just talking about cool factor I think thats for you to decide. If your talking about pushing a car to its limits on a road course, then you can't go wrong with having more brakes then you might need. To be honest in my non professional opinion not many people are ever going to over drive a set of "Big Reds" on 13" rotors in any VW when combined with the right pad and fluid combo. I've driven and been passanger in many tuned cars with different levels of brake upgrades and the best way to describe it is the faster the car the stronger the brakes the bigger the







just my 2 cents anyway.


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## jean malicar (May 5, 2003)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (Byron N.)*

Bigger is better


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## JoeVeeDubber (Mar 15, 2002)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (jean malicar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jean malicar* »_Nice Red Jetta.. I will go with the 6-piston fronts and I don't know if they make porsche or brembo 4 piston rears.

So far the only company offering a 4 piston rear setup is AP RACING. Would be kind of odd to run different kits front and rear. I suppose if you were to do this rear kit it would be recommended to do the corresponding front kit as well, which I believe is offered in either a 13 or 14 inch rotor and also uses a 4 piston caliper. 
Personally I've heard from a well known tuner, AMS, opinions of a 6 piston Porsche Cayenne caliper on a B5 S4. The pedal is not as firm as with a 4 piston and actually kind of mushy. This is what I fear will happen with ECS's Stage 5. Honestly, who is going to need that large a rotor, I can understand for a show car, but even for a car that is driven hard on the track a 13inch rotor kit will do just fine. MK4s are heavy, but they aren't THAT heavy.


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## jean malicar (May 5, 2003)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (JoeVeeDubber)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JoeVeeDubber* »_
So far the only company offering a 4 piston rear setup is AP RACING. Would be kind of odd to run different kits front and rear. I suppose if you were to do this rear kit it would be recommended to do the corresponding front kit as well, which I believe is offered in either a 13 or 14 inch rotor and also uses a 4 piston caliper. 
Personally I've heard from a well known tuner, AMS, opinions of a 6 piston Porsche Cayenne caliper on a B5 S4. The pedal is not as firm as with a 4 piston and actually kind of mushy. This is what I fear will happen with ECS's Stage 5. Honestly, who is going to need that large a rotor, I can understand for a show car, but even for a car that is driven hard on the track a 13inch rotor kit will do just fine. MK4s are heavy, but they aren't THAT heavy.

So then you think it is because of the rotor that you get the mushy feeling. Is there a way that I can fit the actual ceramic disc rotor that is on the high performance porsches to my mk4 jetta? I think Gary H did it but he has the six piston calipers, I want the 6 piston ones.


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## Byron N. (Oct 20, 2003)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (jean malicar)*

The reason the pedal feels softer or "mushier" is usually due to the increased total piston dia. and fluid volume required to sqeeze all 12 of those pistons. There are a couple of ways to correct this.
1. Is to use a larger volume master cylinder to match fluid requirements of the caliper. 
2. Is to size the caliper pistons to match the master cylinder. 
I'm pretty sure that you would have to go with dual masters, 1 for the front and one for the rear, to support upgrading both the front and the rear.


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## jean malicar (May 5, 2003)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (Byron N.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Byron N.* »_The reason the pedal feels softer or "mushier" is usually due to the increased total piston dia. and fluid volume required to sqeeze all 12 of those pistons. There are a couple of ways to correct this.
1. Is to use a larger volume master cylinder to match fluid requirements of the caliper. 
2. Is to size the caliper pistons to match the master cylinder. 
I'm pretty sure that you would have to go with dual masters, 1 for the front and one for the rear, to support upgrading both the front and the rear.

Very nice info. Thanks


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## PolePositionUSA (Oct 29, 2004)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (jean malicar)*

Brembo info
The new 4 piston Brembo caliper has more clamping force and is lighter then the 6 piston porsche caliper.
The 8 piston is heavier compare to the 4 piston, the braking gain is minor.


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## dcomiskey (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (collins_tc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *collins_tc* »_ECS is coming out with a Stage 5 for Mk.4 cars - it's a six piston Porsche Cayenne caliper (Brembo). Prices aren't out yet, but my guess is around $1800-ish for the kit (calipers, pads, rotors, lines). Their other kits use Boxster or Boxster S calipers, and those are four piston. All in all, the ECS kits are a great value.
T.C.

One word: overkill.


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## Byron N. (Oct 20, 2003)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (dcomiskey)*

Just because you may not push your car hard enough to warrant brakes of this size doesn't mean that it is not required for some others who may abuse thiers to its limits. It all depends on the driver.


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## dcomiskey (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (Byron N.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Byron N.* »_Just because you may not push your car hard enough to warrant brakes of this size doesn't mean that it is not required for some others who may abuse thiers to its limits. It all depends on the driver.

There are probably 4 VWs that would require such masive brakes. I push my car plenty hard on road courses and my stock 337 brakes (with pads, etc.) work quite well. I can't fathom a reason why (excpet for bling factor) someone would go with Porsche's largest brake setup over the entry-level ECS kit. Even that is borderline overkill.


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## collins_tc (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (dcomiskey)*

I see what you're saying, but I have to say that my 2v2/1R setup is an improvement over stock. With the ECS kits, it's usually about mechanical leverage, and like you say, I tend to think that Stage 5 kit is overkill. If you read their own literature on it, the braking balance is pretty far from stock, where the other kits are actually close to the stock balance. This is the first kit that ECS has made where I think it's more "car show" than "car go". That said, they do make quality stuff, and truth be told, if the Stage 5 were available when I bought the 2v2 kit, I would have bought the v5.
T.C.


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## SALVO82 (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (collins_tc)*

i have stage 2 version 1 
its awesome becasuse i dont get fad anymore, but the headaches of them arent worth it.
I had a brake leak on the highway doing 120 because a stupid 10 cent washer failed! I lost almost all pedal fell and in slowed down while gushing fluid all over my wheel well
If u dont use good rotors u will eat right through them.
Overall its not worth it unless your a weekend racer because of all the headaches that may come from it, but i still love them.
My buddy had the 993 calipers on his car and it was alot better then the boxster calipers just a note.


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## Byron N. (Oct 20, 2003)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (SALVO82)*

Any properly designed and installed brake kit that uses O.E.M. calipers and fasteners, which most kits these days consist of, should have none of the problems you have encountered. It sounds to me like someone overtorqued or used a crush washer one tomany times on your kit leading to the leak you describe. Another possiblity was that the brake hose on the caliper may not have been correctly positioned and put stress on the fitting. To my knowledge all calipers use the copper crush washer. If this were a common problem then there is no way that Porshe could sell everyone of thier cars with this "flaw". I'm not trying to bust your balls, just trying to clear a couple things up. I have run 2 different sets of big brakes(both sets were custom made for my car by myself so I'm not trying to plug anyones kit) for the last 5 years and have had zero problems. Its all in the details. If the rotors being used are just stock one piece rotors I could see going threw them quickly, but a well designed kit should use a larger diameter and thicker rotor with directional viens to prevent overheating and wear.


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## SALVO82 (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (Byron N.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Byron N.* »_To my knowledge all calipers use the copper crush washer. If this were a common problem then there is no way that Porshe could sell everyone of thier cars with this "flaw". I'm not trying to bust your balls, just trying to clear a couple things up. I have run 2 different sets of big brakes(both sets were custom made for my car by myself so I'm not trying to plug anyones kit) for the last 5 years and have had zero problems.

Iam going to have to disagree with u because if u take a look at the pic








they use different brake lines that are not as movable. When u buy porcshe calipers as we do in big brake kit they are *modifidied* so our steeel braided lines can be used. Iam not bashing ECS, I love my brakes. 


_Modified by SALVO82 at 2:43 PM 1-27-2005_


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## Byron N. (Oct 20, 2003)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (SALVO82)*

Well I just got done removing my foot from my mouth. I'm so used to seeing Porshe calipers with banjo bolts and braided lines that I forget they come with a totally different style of line. Thats what I get for pushing my "knowledge" around.







There are other manufactures that do use the banjo bolt and crush washers though, I'm positve(her I go again) that all my old rear wheel drive chevy stuff used them on their front calipers. I just didn't want someone to get the wrong impression that you have to give up reliability for better braking. I'm sure that some kits are better thought out then others though.


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## SALVO82 (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (Byron N.)*

Totally cool.
A lot of people dont know about that.


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## 91driver (Feb 25, 2004)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (SALVO82)*

Hate to open this can of worms, but can having a significantly heavier brake assembly have negative effects on suspension and rotational weight? What has a bigger impact on braking, better tires or better brakes themselves, considering you have brand new fully function everything?


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## SALVO82 (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (91driver)*

actually they are lighter


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## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: What type of Brembo Brake caliper would you choose? (91driver)*


_Quote, originally posted by *91driver* »_Hate to open this can of worms, but can having a significantly heavier brake assembly have negative effects on suspension and rotational weight? What has a bigger impact on braking, better tires or better brakes themselves, considering you have brand new fully function everything?


First i would go w/ the stock brake set up with correct pads/fluid. Along with the stickiest tires you will be using. If you put the brakes full on, and you cannot engauge ABS or lock up the tires, then i would think of upgrading the brakes. I found with my stock 11.3" rotors (stock mkiv gti setup) with ferrodo ds2500 pads (about as agressive as you can go and still be street driven w/o chewing through rotors) with 225 wide falken azenis, from about 60mph and less the brakes were more powerful than the tires. above that, say 120mph the fronts could use alot more brake force. the rears never had a problem kicking in the abs, b/c of weight transfer/light rear end/ overbias from the factory. and that actually killed your brake force b/c once the rear abs kicks in, the pedal really firms up, and it feels like no matter how hard you press you arent really applying any more braking force to the front









I found if you hit the brakes at a moderate pace and pressed harder and harder, the rear abs would kick in, and it felt like you would never stop. but if you hit the brakes straight to 80% and then press further from there, some how the rear brakes wouldnt kick in the abs, or not nearly as bad, and you would get alot more force out of the front calipers









But even when the car was at 120mph and you hit the brakes hard, even though the fronts would not lock/engauge abs, the car will kind of float around the lane in a squiggly line, and not brake straight. I heard this is actually using too much braking, and you will be faster around the track hitting the brakes less, to not have the car wander in its lane slowing down. THis is most likely due to it being harder to achieve the correct line entering the turn you are braking before. However in a one time stop, you are probably best off with the car weaving and bobbing as it slows.
So with the above desribed situations will a stage 2 version 1 kit from ecs with proper pads/fluid, will i indeed bring my pervious feeling of having enough brakes at 60mph but not at 120mph, up to having enough brakes at 120mph and not 160mph? see what im saying?
I'm really interested in putting together my own ecs stage 2 version 1 kit on my car, but would like to know if the only brake torque increase comes from the larger rotor. and the boxster caliper/extra pistons are predominatly for brake feel/modulation, rather than a true increase in clamping force/brake torque?


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## JoeVeeDubber (Mar 15, 2002)

The increased number of pistons is the main reason for the increased brake torque. Just think of it this way, right now you have just 1 pistion applying force. With a 4 piston you have 4 pistons applying force, 2 on each side. Even though the pistons are smaller they produce a lot more force since there are more of them working. Modulation is also improved on a 4 piston since you are controlling not just one piston but four. True they squish the same distance, but you have more finer control since 4 pistons can be controlled with more increments than 1 can. Pad compound also contributes to modulation in the way they grip, there "grip graph" you could say. 
At the last track event I was at there was a 350Z with stock brakes running with Porterfield R4 race pads. He went off course pretty bad at the end of a long straight. Reason? Well, after being towed out and making it back to the pit he discovered that his passenger front brakes, the inner pad (piston side) had worn completely away, down to the backing plate and had cooked itself to the piston, basically melded itself to the pistion. The outer pad still had material on it. This makes me wonder about 1 piston setups, if they truly are applying force to both pads equally. I've seen posts of people experiencing uneven wear with stock setups as well, just street driven cars. This is another advantage to setups with pistons on both sides. There is less chance of uneven pad wear due to calipers binding up on their guide pins.
The way I see it is like this when it comes to brakes. Increase in rotor size is needed if you are overheating your current rotor (unless you find ways to improve cooling, like ducting). Better calipers with more brake torque are needed if you don't have enough brake torque to stop from XXX speed in YYY distance (in the case you are already using the MOST aggresive pad and it still doesn't cut it)


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## 91driver (Feb 25, 2004)

*Re: (JoeVeeDubber)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JoeVeeDubber* »_
Well, after being towed out and making it back to the pit he discovered that his passenger front brakes, the inner pad (piston side) had worn completely away, down to the backing plate and had cooked itself to the piston, basically melded itself to the pistion. The outer pad still had material on it. This makes me wonder about 1 piston setups, if they truly are applying force to both pads equally. I've seen posts of people experiencing uneven wear with stock setups as well, just street driven cars. This is another advantage to setups with pistons on both sides. There is less chance of uneven pad wear due to calipers binding up on their guide pins.


Can uneven pad wear result from something other than poorl lubricated or malfunctioning pins? Is one pad down to the backing and the other in decent shape (aside from a missing 1/4) due to the piston and not the pins? On all 2/4/6/8 piston calipers are the pistons distributed between both sides of the caliper?


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## collins_tc (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (91driver)*

Check out ECS's own research on mechanical advantage and the increased ability of the various stages above that of the OE system. With the Stage 1, 2, 2v2 and 4, the piston size isn't really that much larger than stock - the advantage comes from larger diameter rotors and the fact that the pistons are a) applying pressure on both pads rather than one, and b) more spread out than one piston, therefore applying pressure on a larger area of pad.
I can tell you that the pedal feel of my 2v2 / 1R set up is far better and more reactive than the stock brakes. I have used them to their limits on the highway at 70+mph on two occasions, and I honestly feel that if I would have had the stock brakes, I would have hit a deer the first time and a minivan the second. Both times the ABS didn't engage and braking was very controlled - the car easily went where I needed it to go.
Here's the ECS link: http://www.ecstuning.com/stage...e%204
T.C.


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## Byron N. (Oct 20, 2003)

*Re: (91driver)*

Well I'm not sure why the pads would wear uneven if the piston and slides were in good working order, unless they are just being abused beyond what they were designed for. Single piston floating calipers or any floating calipers for that matter are designed to meet both build cost and tolerances for oem manufacturing. They are not designed for all out performance. Thats why high end cars use rigid mount calipers from Brembo and Alcon, but these cars sell at a price that allows for higher quality components to be used. 
Allthough there are some 2 piston floating calipers with both pistons on the same side for the most part the number of pistons are split evenly to each side. Another important thing to be sure of is that the pistons taper in dia. on each side of the caliper front to rear, this will ensure proper pad wear (front to rear on the pad). This is usualy only a problem on some of the "low budget" stuff, not anything a Brembo or Alcon would have.


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