# 2006 will be the last year for NAR Phaeton sales (yes, sadly, it is true)



## DCubed (Oct 25, 2004)

*Get em while they are still available*

Well, 
The nay-sayers won, the word from Adrian Hallmark is that the phaetons last year is 2006, low volume and need to concentrate the money to the product launches and to market the volume cars are a couple of the many reasons.
So a







for a car that made it 3 years here in the US, and to many more abroad.

D


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## metro_vw (Dec 18, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (CapoVWSales)*

I just heard the same thing but it's just our market.


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (metro_vw)*

Makes you wonder if being an orphan will raise or lower the resale value. I'm not too concerned as I hope to keep it a long time.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (CapoVWSales)*


_Quote, originally posted by *spockcat* »_Is there some written confirmation of this? A press release perhaps?

Yes, here is a copy of the message sent to the dealer network.




_Modified by PanEuropean at 10:05 AM 11-12-2005_


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## metro_vw (Dec 18, 2004)

VWoA just faxed a letter to all of the dealers


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (bobm)*

I just really don't care. I still own a fine automobile that is exclusive and will become more exclusive as time rocks on. I just hope the depreciation will slow down. 
I plan to keep it as long as I can get service. If that becomes a problem then I will be upset.
I still think the prices on ebay and other auto sites have it priced way too low. When I decide to let it go, most likely from boredom of having the same car, I will sell it on an individual basis at MY price. It's just too good a car to give away!
I really don't see why we couldn't special order these cars, even at MSRP!


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## AusSalzburg (Nov 4, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (dcowan699)*

I find this hard to believe when I see them on a regular basis now.
Too bad the V6 TDI isn't available in the US.
Werner


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (CapoVWSales)*

I have received confirmation from a most reliable source that this sad news is true. After the end of the 2006 model year production run, the Phaeton will no longer be offered in North America. It will, of course, continue to be sold elsewhere.
VW will be contacting current Phaeton owners shortly to advise each of us of this, and to emphasize that they will continue to support out Phaetons.
Ladies and Gentlemen - we now own collectables. I think I am going to buy my lease out when it expires.
Michael


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
....Ladies and Gentlemen - we now own collectables. I think I am going to buy my lease out when it expires.....
Michael

However, I think Michael may have the best answer. I now will drive my truck more than ever.
What month is the end of the 2006 year??




_Modified by dcowan699 at 5:04 PM 11-11-2005_


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## zorang (May 9, 2003)

*Phaeton is dead*

Just let you know , we recived letter from VW Of America.. Today 4.41 P.M.
"In the Nord American market however, for practical and economic reasons, we will be suspending our importartion of Phaeton with the close of the 2006 model year. "
Unglaublich
Zoran


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## DCubed (Oct 25, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (dcowan699)*

The last orders will be processed in feb 2006


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## AusSalzburg (Nov 4, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (dcowan699)*

I just got off the phone with a friend of mine. He says that the Phaeton is only suspended because of exchange rates and costs. It sounds like to me that it may come back when VW is strong again in the US market..
I'm praying for you guys.
Werner


_Modified by AusSalzburg at 3:06 PM 11-11-2005_


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (CapoVWSales)*

Thanks for the quick response. I feel the only downside to this news is going to be service , at least way down the road. I hope that it doesn't turn out that we have to take our cars to a Bentley dealership to get major work done. I don't even know where one is!
I truly believe this works in our favor from a supply and demand perspective. You could put any price on your car now and wait. I know that if I did, I could get a decent price for mine as they are hard to get!
We should all put our cars on Ebay right now for over $80K to stir up things a bit
















I know this thread will be at the top for a long time











_Modified by dcowan699 at 5:12 PM 11-11-2005_


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## phaeton (Nov 30, 2002)

*NEWS FLASH Phaetons last year in NAR confirmed 2006MY*

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2290314


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## TREGinginCO (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: NEWS FLASH Phaetons last year in NAR confirmed 2006MY (phaeton)*

That's too bad.... the Phaeton is simply and awesome vehicle that VW (I think) didn't do enough to get North America excited about the vehicle.


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

*Re: NEWS FLASH Phaetons last year in NAR confirmed 2006MY (TREGinginCO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TREGinginCO* »_That's too bad.... the Phaeton is simply and awesome vehicle that VW (I think) didn't do enough to get North America excited about the vehicle.

Thanks for the kind words RJ. It seems we all lost a champion in Len Hunt...and with him the Phaeton.
~PC


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## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (dcowan699)*

It is very sad to see the Phaeton no longer being imported to the North American marketplace.

Michael,
I have a non-technical question for the people in Dresden...
Can we order a Phaeton to be delivered to North America through VW Individual in the future (beyond MY2006)?? 
I figured when I replace a Phaeton, I would prefer to go through VW Individual and pick the exact options I wanted (headrest DVD, stand heater, different wood, maybe refrigerator, inlays/marquetry, etc...)
I guess this is the time to ask... because time is running out on purchasing a new one...
Douglas
P.S. I know that the Flying Spur is very much the same vehicle, but with a supercharger... However, I would rather not spend an extra 80k-100k for the same thing....


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (dcowan699)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dcowan699* »_What month is the end of the 2006 year??

If past history is any guide, Model Year 2006 production will continue until week 22 of 2006.
Michael


_Modified by PanEuropean at 7:43 PM 11-11-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (copernicus0001)*


_Quote, originally posted by *copernicus0001* »_Can we order a Phaeton to be delivered to North America through VW Individual in the future (beyond MY2006)? 

That is something that would be entirely up to VW of North America to decide - Dresden has no say in that type of thing at all, same as they have no say at all in what options have been offered (or not offered) in different markets. The individual importers are the ones who make all those calls.
Michael


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## Theresias (Feb 11, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_If past history is any guide, Model Year 2006 production will continue until week 22 of 2006.

May 2006 will be the last month of production for MY 2006, so MY 2007 stats with June 1st.


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (CapoVWSales)*

Rotten!!!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif And as I was driving tonight I saw not one but 2 Phaetons out and about!! What did VW expect? No real advertising, not enough publicity...and now a victory for all those badge conscious auto writers to say " I told you so" .....I will not be ready to replace my w12 by next may, but was planning on special ordering via VW individual my next W12...What a shame....this is the best car to come out in many years, and now VW decides to discontinue







...Well let's hope there will be a special order basis for this in the future, and worldwide sales continue growing...sorry to rant...








Ed.


_Modified by viscount at 6:02 PM 11-11-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (viscount)*

I guess it must be official now, if CNN is carrying the story...


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (PanEuropean)*

You're a very evil man







! Only thing is that its not April Fool's Day!!








Ed


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## LongIslander (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (CapoVWSales)*

Derek, do you think VW will provide Phaeton owners with some kind of "loyalty" certificate as GM did with Oldsmobile owners to compensate them for the likely huge drop in resale value of an "orphan" car? (I realize the pride of ownership of a great car like this makes one hope that it becomes a "collectible"....but reality is more likely in the other direction!)


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## phaetonmeister (Jan 16, 2005)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (viscount)*

Sad news.....I've been lurking in this Forum for quite awhile, and have been amazed at the fellowship you proud owners have amassed! i was on the Phaeton Luxury Ambassador Project (The same gig as Phaeton Chix) and I'll have to say with all honesty that the blame for the lackluster sales performance with this gem of an automobile lies primarily with the U.S. dealer network. After visiting over 80 Phaeton dealers from Miami to Washington DC, I can count on one hand the number of dealer principles and management that promoted the vehicle in their markets. VW made it clear that the Phaeton was never intended to be a high volume production car but a halo vehicle. Negativity breeds negativity especially in a close knit dealership. Those dealers that were believers did well with the car and have many, many satisfied customers. It's a sad day for the young gal, but a joyous day for us true Phaeton Fans. Now I'm going straight to http://www.manheim.com and find my Silver Mirror V8.....


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## AusSalzburg (Nov 4, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (phaetonmeister)*

I'm not convinced Phaeton will never be sold again in the US. Doesn't Phaeton outsell Rolls Royce?
Nissan brought back the Z.
VW will bring back the Van, right. It's currenlty sold in Europe, just not in the US. Until the Euro falls more, and VW is selling a lot of cars again, advertise the Phaeton like crazy in the US.


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## workinghard (Apr 10, 2005)

*future plans of vw vis a vis phaeton*

greetings,
so pleased with my phaeton...hearing mixed reports about whether phaeton will be produced in 2007 and beyond....if not, what kind of support can we expect?
workinghard


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## digifant_gli (May 14, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (Paldi)*

This sucks.....I dreampt of owning one of these cars....I mean, I really really wanted to own one someday. Yeah, I'm only 19, but this car kicked but. Sadly, I will never have the chance to own/drive one of these amazing cars...


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (digifant_gli)*

How bout a nice DeLorean? 
Or a used low miles Phaeton in a few years, before the price skyrockets?


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## digifant_gli (May 14, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_How bout a nice DeLorean? 
Or a used low miles Phaeton in a few years, before the price skyrockets?

I really wish that the dealer I worked for was a Phaeton dealer....everyone thought the car would be a failure, and I must say that I disagreed. I thought it had all the makings of a world beater....but it would appear I was wrong...
R.I.P. Phaeton....


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (phaetonmeister)*

I come home from a fun night of bowling with my office staff and family to this.







Now I must look at this with a whole new perspective. I knew what I wanted with the Phaeton, black-W12- 4 seater. Could it be that I, as some others, have a collectible? Time will tell. Best we find out the exact number of cars brought to North America, (per year) and the specs to figure out where we stand. I have no idea how many are out there. Do I park it now to keep the mileage down or just enjoy it and drive it? I feel I'm sitting on something rare, though cars are not a good investment. And it was not intended to be an investment. I feel sad about this whole thing but this could be an opportunity if played out right. Maybe I should buy another one for a daily driver. Now that's a plan.








I'll sit back and watch the auto media frenzy start with the "I told you so" crap. Any news is good news right?
Regards,
Brent


_Modified by W126C at 9:30 PM 11-11-2005_


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## digifant_gli (May 14, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (W126C)*

I can only hope that this is a hoax.....there is nothing on the VW Media website...media.vw.com


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (digifant_gli)*

"Hoax" I don't know. I just walked out to the garage to look at my car and it looks different to me now. So misunderstood. I didn't want some car everybody else has, now I have some car that hardly anybody else will ever have. At least in North America. This is just a DAMN shame. 
Regards,
Brent


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## PC Dave (Nov 29, 2001)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (W126C)*


_Quote, originally posted by *W126C* »_I come home from a fun night of bowling with my office staff and family to this.







Now I must look at this with a whole new perspective. I knew what I wanted with the Phaeton, black-W12- 4 seater. Could it be that I, as some others, have a collectible? Time will tell. Best we find out the exact number of cars brought to North America, (per year) and the specs to figure out where we stand. I have no idea how many are out there. Do I park it now to keep the mileage down or just enjoy it and drive it? I feel I'm sitting on something rare, though cars are not a good investment. And it was not intended to be an investment. I feel sad about this whole thing but this could be an opportunity if played out right. Maybe I should buy another one for a daily driver. Now that's a plan.








Regards,
Brent

Brent, just drive the heck out of it and enjoy it. The Phaeton will never be a collectible, at least not anytime soon (40 years from now, who knows?). It's an orphan car, and it's a 4 door sedan - 4 doors are pretty much never collectible, the only exceptions i can think of in the last 40 years (various M5's, MB 300SEL 6.3, 450SEL 6.9, 500E) came from "prestige" marques and were widely acknowledged at the time as the best sedans in the world which the Phaeton, despite opinions here, just isn't (widely acknowledged, that is). Depreciation was already tough - witness reneetregs' purchase yesterday of a 32k mile '04 W12 for $44k, and it's only going to accelerate for an orphan. The market perception problems are going to get worse - now VW won't spend a dollar to market the Phaeton, most dealers will just want the whole experience to go away, and prestige-centric mainstream Euro-luxury customers previously reluctant to "take a chance" and buy one vs. MB/BMW/Audi will be even less likely to stray from the name brands now that the Phaeton experiment (in the US) is officially deemed a "failure". 
I think a more appropriate analogy (in a very different price class) would be the Merkur Xr4ti and Scorpio from the mid-80's, very good European Fords (esp. compared to US/Japanese cars of the era) that FoMoCo tried to sell through a resistant and unknowing Lincoln/Mercury dealer network for a few years. The dealers didn't understand them and didn't know how to sell them, and the geriatric L/M customer base was baffled by them. Despite decent reviews they didn't sell well, and they were discontinued due to buyer apathy. Used prices dropped like a rock, and people who "got it" bought great cars for nothing for years.
I'm surprised VW announced this now, this should kill '06 sales. if 2000 '04 Phaetons were sold in the US and around 1000 '05s, with this announcement I'll be shocked if they sell 300 '06s. I'm sorry this has happened, and it doesn't change my view of the car - I just look at it as a huge opportunity, not for a collector's item but to get an incredible daily driver at a foolishly low price (already true of my lease deal). I'm going to watch pricing on '04s in particular; if I can get a reasonable extended warranty from VW I'll happily buy my car off-lease or, more likely, a similar one at a much lower price than my residual, and drive an extraordinary car for years for less than the price of a new Passat.


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## Theresias (Feb 11, 2004)

Read 1st, then post.








http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2290187


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: (GripperDon)*

This car is just too good to go down like this...I've never had so many compliments and questions about a car...I think its time for Phaeton owners of the world to unite!! Well we will be moving back to France at some point, I guess I'll just have to try and time it around when I need to trade this one in!!


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## stjarna (Aug 18, 2005)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (W126C)*


_Quote, originally posted by *W126C* »_"Hoax" I don't know. I just walked out to the garage to look at my car and it looks different to me now. So misunderstood. I didn't want some car everybody else has, now I have some car that hardly anybody else will ever have. At least in North America. This is just a DAMN shame. 
Regards,
Brent 

I doubt the Phaeton will ever be a collectible -- a few folks like us are the only folks in NAR who want to buy and own one because it auspicously promotes the VW badge in large form at front and rear. There just no prestige in owning a VW-badged car (partly why I bought it, ironically). I doubt more folks will want to buy it in the future all of a sudden.
The question now is service. That will come down to a decision of each individual Phaeton dealer. They had to invest in special equipment and tools to service the Phaeton so they might try to use the existing pieces as long as they can to generate cash flow from servicing Phaetons. If a piece breaks, will they replace it? Who knows...
One saving grace is that Audi has put the same W12 engine in the A8L now. We could get service at an Audi dealer later, at least on the engine. A Bentley dealer may be an alternative for non-engine components.
I cannot say I am surprised by any of this -- VWoA did a really crappy job of marketing this vehicle. Perhaps they wanted it to fail and only begrudgingly supported it because VW AG was pushing to go luxury and VWoA disagreed. And then VW AG dumped a ridiculous amount of millions into the glass factory; I cannot believe that they ever expected to get an ROI on that investment. They could have built a non-showcase factory for millions less and then used those millions to actually support VWoA in marketing and advertising the car. 
This is the problem when German companies like VW AG are not managed in the interests of shareholders alone -- the Germans include other 'stakeholders' like the unions, the politicians, and others who have no personal capital at risk in the company. In America, a CEO would likely (and hopefully) be fired for dumping millions of shareholder dollars into a show-off factory like the glass factory in Dresden with little hope of generating a competitive ROI. So, perhaps the Phaeton was doomed from the get-go.
Beautiful car created by talented engineers. Too bad the car was also marketed by engineers who know nothing about marketing.
As long as I can find reliable service -- preferably at a Phaeton dealership -- I'll keep my W12.


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## Phat Cat (Dec 25, 2004)

*At least VW is consistent*

Horrible sales experience, poor service and now they leave us w/ an orphan car. Love the car, hate the company and will never deal with VW again.
Maybe its time to bite the bullet and trade before resale goes to 0.


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## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re: (viscount)*

What VW is doing by eliminating the Phaeton from the NA market is covering themselves with the Franchisee's. They can't just go in and tell a current dealer that they are not performing under the current Phaeton agreement.
By not importing the Phaeton for a short time they can regroup and reintroduce the car to NA but only in certain regions and with a limited number of dealers that really want to support the car. This is how Lexus started out. 
VW will put in measurable metrics for the new dealers and any dealer not meeting the metrics is forced to give up the Phaeton franchise.
For example, here in Orange County, CA we only need one Phaeton dealer since there is only one dealer that really supported the car. That being San Juan Capo.
All high-end luxury cars are taking a hit right now. I just saw a commercial on TV from Commonwealth VW advertising $8K off on the new A8, which means that you could probably get $10K off.
This news does suck as VW really does build the best luxury (Phaeton) car in the world for under $150K. Its just that we won't see it again until the '08 model. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by rmg2 at 4:15 PM 11-12-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (W126C)*


_Quote, originally posted by *W126C* »_ ...Could it be that I, as some others, have a collectible?

*Oh Yes...*














... a 4 seater, W12, fully loaded? Not a doubt about it, that *is* a collectible. There are between 3,000 and 4,000 Phaetons on the road in North America right now (accurate number) - perhaps another 300 to 500 in the pipeline (educated guess) - and of those, perhaps 15% are W12 Phaetons (educated guess), and less than half of the W12s are 4 seaters (accurate number).
Don't let that one get away. It will be very interesting to watch prices for the 4 seater W12s, as they are the rarest of the rare.
I'm not at all worried about future service. The Phaeton is being continued in other major world markets. No-one has ever heard of problems getting a Sirocco serviced, or a Corrado serviced, or a VW Bus or Transporter serviced, even though those products have been brought to North America in the past, but are not being imported now. I think that if anything, VW of NA will go out of their way to make sure that we who supported them with this new product will be very well looked after in the future. After all, we are all prospective customers for other VW products. 
Michael


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (loganflatt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *loganflatt* »_And then VW AG dumped a ridiculous amount of millions into the glass factory; I cannot believe that they ever expected to get an ROI on that investment. They could have built a non-showcase factory for millions less and then used those millions to actually support VWoA in marketing and advertising the car. 

One needs to take a global perspective when looking at ROI on the factory in Dresden. Keep in mind, VW could sell each and every Phaeton they produce two times over in Europe. They've recently added a second shift to the factory to keep up with the demand. My understanding is that the Phaetons (TDIs in particular) are flying out the door like hotcakes over there right now, and at a premium I would guess.
Furthermore, we of the NAR like to see ourselves as "big fish", when the reality of it is this market has been a bit of an enigma for VWAG as the US (in particular) buying habits are very markedly different from the rest of the world. Hard to believe, but true. (Michael? Assent?)
VoA needs to focus on core product in the short term or their future in this market will be dire -- remember 1992-1994? Once this market is back on its feet, I'm supremely confident you will see a renaissance and the Phaeton will return. Perhaps the Phoenix would be a good name -- no wait, Pontiac already tried that...nevermind!


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## fuse (May 30, 2005)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (chrisj428)*

Sad to see. I'm sure VW won't have anything to replace it with when my lease is over. Having a Phaeton also indirectly led to our buying a CPO passat wagon to replace an old MB wagon. 
VW will effectively be saying goodbye to this whole segment of buyers, especially if resale values tank (which they probably will).
Why not let Phaetons be order-only from the factory, and let Bentley dealers service them?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (fuse)*

By the way, a copy of the letter from VW to the dealers is now posted on page 1 of this thread.


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

I think that service will be a big issue outside of the handful of dealerships that were strong Phaeton dealers. As time goes on, fewer and fewer dealer owners are going to send their techs away to train on a car they no longer sell. So fewer and fewer techs will know anything about the cars. 
I doubt a Bentley dealer will even servicing a Phaeton. Their techs are not trained on the car. They don't have the repair manuals. Their parts departments won't have parts or even the electronic catalog of parts. 
While spare parts will be available in Germany, VWNA will probably stock less and less. So repair times will lengthen. More owners will drop out and it will further depress the value.
It is my understanding that VW heavily supported the leases by giving high residuals. I suspect that once your leases are up, you will look at the market and find that you can buy a similar Phaeton as the one you leased for much less than the residual. So you will not buy your own Phaeton and then have trouble justifying the purchase of an unknown used car. 
Unfortunately, I don't see the future as being very bright for these cars. It is a fantastic car sold by the wrong company in North America. Enjoy it while you own it.


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## Rex Flash (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: (spockcat)*

Somebody here owes me a meal, since my prediction more than a year ago that the Phaeton would fold within three years has come true.
RIP.


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## BHSQSHIP1 (Nov 11, 2005)

Unfortunately in the US market the name or percieved image is what sells almost everthing. How many Lexus would be sold if they carried a Toyota nameplate? Infinite/Nissan? Accura/Honda? I have even had customers tell me they thought the Touareg was beautiful, well made, and a good value, but would not buy one because it's just a Volkswagen. I believe that only time and what VW is doing with it's products now will change US customer's perception of the brand.


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: (spockcat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *spockcat* »_As time goes on, fewer and fewer dealer owners are going to send their techs away to train on a car they no longer sell. So fewer and fewer techs will know anything about the cars. 

Jim,
In the letter from VW at the top of this thread, it states that *free* training will be provided to technicians. Why wouldn't you want to send someone to that? Especially since they're going to have to be maintained & fixed by someone once the warranty is up -- think long term here!


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

*All bets are off...or no free meal*

"Somebody here owes me a meal, since my prediction more than a year ago that the Phaeton would fold within three years has come true."
Rex Flash
Owes you a meal? I'm bitting my tongue here...unless you'd like humble pie perhaps?
MAYBE if someone in here is feeling nice, they'll let you ride in their RARE automobile.
Don't blame VW, Piech, Hunt, Hallmark or even Arnold, the worst automotive ad company to date...or the Phaeton owners or even the mixed bag of dealers. Blame the economy, the exchange rate, the insecure badge loving North American car buyer....








Still a Phaetonchix

_Modified by PhaetonChix at 11:34 AM 11-12-2005_


_Modified by PhaetonChix at 11:35 AM 11-12-2005_


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## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re: All bets are off...or no free meal (PhaetonChix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhaetonChix* »_Owes you a meal? I'm bitting my tongue here...unless you'd like humble pie perhaps?
MAYBE if someone in here is feeling nice, they'll let you ride in their RARE automobile.
Don't blame VW, Piech, Hunt, Hallmark or even Arnold, the worst automotive ad company to date...or the Phaeton owners or even the mixed bag of dealers. Blame the economy, the exchange rate, the insecure badge loving North American car buyer....








Still a Phaetonchix

Don't worry PC. The Phaeton lives; just not in NA. That is not worth a meal.


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## riccone (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_My DeLorean is out in the garage now, speaking with her quietly. I hate when this happens...

















_Modified by Paldi at 11:38 PM 11-11-2005_

You certainly have an ability for picking collectables. Please let us know what car you will buy next; I love collectables!


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_Jim,
In the letter from VW at the top of this thread, it states that *free* training will be provided to technicians. Why wouldn't you want to send someone to that? Especially since they're going to have to be maintained & fixed by someone once the warranty is up -- think long term here!

Chris,
Does VW pay for the time of the tech when they go to the training session? How about the lost profit of that time to the dealership? How about tech turnover? Will a dealer owner bother to have a tech newly trained on a car they no longer sell? 
I am not saying that every dealer owner will do this. But I believe over time fewer and fewer VW dealers will be capable of working on these cars due to the lack of investment on the part of the dealer owners. This will lead to more negativity on the part of owners and ever lower values of the cars.
I think these cars will end up in clusters around 10 to 20 major dealerships in metropolitan areas. As long as the owners do not require service outside of those areas they will be fine. But try getting the car serviced properly in Nebraska or Vermont.


_Modified by spockcat at 12:11 PM 11-12-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (CapoVWSales)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rex Flash* »_Somebody here owes me a meal, since my prediction more than a year ago that the Phaeton would fold within three years has come true.

Hi Rex:
It was I who made the bet with you, so, it's I who will be picking up the cheque. Not sure when I will be in YVR next. Let me know if you have a trip to YYZ coming up.
I'll have my crow medium-rare... 
Michael


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: (Paldi)*

But once the car is out of warranty will the owner need to pay the expense of having to fly in a specialist? 
By the way, do you ship your Delorean all the way to DMC in Texas to repair it if required?


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (spockcat)*

There's a half dozen or more comapnies that sell parts and service/rebuild the D car. Volvo motor, English Ford brakes, reliable Lucas electrics







, no on-board computers... Repairs locally aren't too big a deal really, and the parts are all over the internet too.


_Modified by Paldi at 1:39 PM 11-12-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (spockcat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *spockcat* »_...I believe over time fewer and fewer VW dealers will be capable of working on these cars due to the lack of investment on the part of the dealer owners...

Hi Jim:
Actually, service for the Phaeton is the very least of my concern. I have 'some' familiarity with the vehicle, and I think that 60% of the skills training for the Phaeton is common with the Touareg (suspension, engine, access and start, central comfort, central electrical, etc.) and another 30% is common with the new Jetta and new Golf. That only leaves about 10% as unique to the Phaeton.
What I see as likely to happen is this: Certain dealers will start to specialize in the Phaeton, simply because they have a tech who is keen on the car, or a service manager who is keen on the car, and the word will then start to spread that such and such a dealer is a real wizard. As that word gets around, the overall quality of the service that we experience will actually increase.
Michael


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
Your dealer is one of those exceptional ones. You are also one of the exceptional owners who knows alot about the car. 
What about Joe average Phaeton owner who lives in Central Ohio? They are not among the 2 to 5% of Phaeton owners who know about this forum. They only know what their dealer tells them. Their dealer doesn't keep up their Phaeton knowledge. Their Phaeton tech goes to work for BMW for $5/hr more. I Joe average going to want to drive to Toronto to have his car serviced? I suspect they will just dump the car because it will be too much of a problem.


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## the brit (Jun 23, 2003)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
What I see as likely to happen is this: Certain dealers will start to specialize in the Phaeton, simply because they have a tech who is keen on the car, or a service manager who is keen on the car, and the word will then start to spread that such and such a dealer is a real wizard. As that word gets around, the overall quality of the service that we experience will actually increase.
Michael

Those Realto owners sure catch on fast when they find a decend service department, so i'm sure that Phaeton owners will do the same - if they haven't already done so. Just from casually driving through our lot i've seen three or four difference Phaetons parked in service this week.


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (the brit)*

http://www.forbes.com/vehicles....html
Has anybody read this one before?
Regards,
Brent


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: (W126C)*

Brent
That is a fine article. A bit short, but then it would take a book to fully cover the virtues of the Phaeton. It does a great job in boiling it all down. I am so glad you posted it. and that I have a Phaeton. Now the question is how to get the DVD NAV upgrade when it comes out.
Don


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: (W126C)*

I read it before and still love this quote:

_Quote »_The problem is, no one else seems to be making the same recommendation--at least not according to the Phaeton's sales figures. One concern that potential buyers may have--and one that we understand--is this: Why buy a $70,000 sedan from the guys who are dealing Golfs to college kids? 
This is either something you get over, or you don't. You can either deal with a little ribbing for how much you spent on your VW--all the while knowing you made a smart purchase--or you can't. 

That, along with the statement that, years later, this car will be viewed as being way ahead of its time and that it is "the possessor of a near-perfect interior" only serves to reinforce my belief that in order to improve, one must step out of the box. And the Phaeton, especially its interior, will be renowned for years to come as being truly peerless.


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

*Re: (spockcat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *spockcat* »_
Your dealer is one of those exceptional ones. You are also one of the exceptional owners who knows alot about the car. 
What about Joe average Phaeton owner who lives in Central Ohio? They are not among the 2 to 5% of Phaeton owners who know about this forum. They only know what their dealer tells them. Their dealer doesn't keep up their Phaeton knowledge. Their Phaeton tech goes to work for BMW for $5/hr more. I Joe average going to want to drive to Toronto to have his car serviced? I suspect they will just dump the car because it will be too much of a problem.

Jim,
I guess I could ask the same question about the Touareg...why spend big bucks on a VW when you can have a Porsche or now an Audi Q7? What about the average Touareg owner that does not follow the Internet, has a just ok dealer and has limited experience with the complexities the Touareg has to offer? There are far more Touaregs with poor service issues (and build issues for that matter) than Phaetons.
The Phaeton Touareg project I was involved in showed BOTH vehicles in their best light...why can't you?
~PC 


_Modified by PhaetonChix at 3:21 PM 11-12-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PhaetonChix)*

Yea, exactly. Jim, there is a more public thread about this topic in the Car Lounge - Say goodbye to the Phaeton after 2006 MY(U.S. only) - most of the naysayers seem to be making their posts in that one.
Michael


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (fuse)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuse* »_Sad to see. I'm sure VW won't have anything to replace it with when my lease is over. Having a Phaeton also indirectly led to our buying a CPO passat wagon to replace an old MB wagon. 
VW will effectively be saying goodbye to this whole segment of buyers, especially if resale values tank (which they probably will).
Why not let Phaetons be order-only from the factory, and let Bentley dealers service them? 

Have to agree with you. This is a High End Vehicle. VW does not have anything else out there to satisfy my needs. If I take a big hit on the value it makes me even more unlikely to buy another VW Product. Now maybe if they offer a deal on a Audi A-8 product it might be ok. 
My worry is the cost of parts and service. The dealers really won't want to be servicing a dead car. VW should offer all of us a good deal on extending our warranties to 100,000 miles. But I bet they don't.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_I read it before and still love this quote:
That, along with the statement that, years later, this car will be viewed as being way ahead of its time .....

Maybe the Phaeton will be like the band "Boston"....way ahead of their time but it turns out they were extremely popular years later. 
On my way to Atlanta today, I got stares left and right. You can feel them looking at you partly because they suddenly slow down to get a good look. As cars passed, the passengers would nearly break their necks at they turned and looked hard at the Phaeton.
It almost makes me want to get tinted windows


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## AusSalzburg (Nov 4, 2004)

*Re: (PhaetonChix)*

This whole thing is making me sick.
Why bother owning rare cars such as Ferrari, Rolls Royce or even Bentley if there's not a dealer near you? 
The Phaeton should never leave the US market. It needs to stay within certain areas where there is a market in the US. The presence and support of Phaeton needs to stay. When VW is strong again in the US, spread the Phaeton out to more dealer networks. 
After seeing PanEuropeans pictures of all those sold Phaetons in the Swiss showroom I can see the success of the Phaeton in certain US metro markets. 
I'm praying for Phaeton to stay in the US.
Werner
_URL edited to provide clickable link - Michael_


_Modified by PanEuropean at 4:04 PM 11-12-2005_


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## AusSalzburg (Nov 4, 2004)

*Re: (AusSalzburg)*

PanEuro,
Can you merge those nice Zurich pictures here?
Werner


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (AusSalzburg)*



AusSalzburg said:


> This whole thing is making me sick.
> 
> I'm praying for Phaeton to stay in the US.
> Werner
> ...


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: (dcowan699)*

*GREAT IDEA!!! I'll start: *
2005, V8, 5 Seater, CouCou Grey, Anthricite, Extended Warranty, 800miles, Complete with VAG-COM, No chimes, No DRL, Yellow Fogs, Euro Headlight switch, Refrigerator, Triple Aux sound input system for: Glove Box Mounted-IPod, Center Stowage Box Mounted-Sat Receiver and Laptop Computer Mount, Passenger side floor mounted Fire Extinguisher, $79,900 Firm, Rare Car! Less than a 800 V8 2005 US models ever sold!
Don



_Modified by GripperDon at 6:59 PM 11-12-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (GripperDon)*

Heck, if we liked the car as of Friday morning, why are we even discussing selling the car as of Saturday night? 
I like mine, that's why I got it. I still like it. I'm keeping it.
Michael


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Heck, if we liked the car as of Friday morning, why are we even discussing selling the car as of Saturday night? 
I like mine, that's why I got it. I still like it. I'm keeping it.
Michael

Well Michael, that is a great point and I even wanted to say that yesterday myself, but what my issue is here is short and long term appraisal values. I'm not suggesting anyone sell their cars all of a sudden, I'm just suggesting that when one decides to do so, we should strive to be in control of the market of these cars. We are now the suppliers and we should push the control of the prices....not the dealers.
I am probably blowing hot air of course, but maybe I'm not. How many forum topics have we discussed where we turn out to be the authority on the subject. Why not be the authority on the resale values? The longer we keep our cars the better this plan would work.


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (GripperDon)*

For Sale: 2004 W12, Klavierlack Black / Sonnenbeige / 4-seater /keyless start / 19" wheels / 18" wheels / lowered to euro height / key fob up-down windows and sunroof / too much more to list here. Buy it at todays special price $175,000.00. Required $100,000.00 deposit. CASH (unmarked bills, please)
Note! You can't buy these cars in the US anymore. 
_Now that should keep the price up for a while_








Regards,
Brent 


_Modified by W126C at 6:14 AM 11-13-2005_


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## Rex Flash (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (PanEuropean)*

Thanks Michael, for fessing up! Can I dine with you in either YYZ or ZRH? I'll be in YYZ in the spring, and am in Europe several times a year.
I feel like I took advantage of you, because assessing all the facts at my fingertips, the prediction seemed a safe bet. And now, to go out on a limb, you heard it here first...........the new Passat will encounter buyer resistance in the US and will not sell as well as the prior model.
Oh, and good advice about keeping your Phaetons. I'm in it for the long haul with my W8. That's why I bought it.
All the best!
Rex


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## starcar (Jul 9, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Heck, if we liked the car as of Friday morning, why are we even discussing selling the car as of Saturday night? 
I like mine, that's why I got it. I still like it. I'm keeping it.
Michael


Bravo!!!!
I just returned from an hour long drive. I put the suspension on full sport and the tranny in sport and did the twisties around Sunset Boulevard. The whole time, I knew I was driving one of the best cars ever made! 
I'm no fool. My warranty expires in 2009, and I'm keeping this baby! AND I will insist that VW live up to Mr. Piech's commitment to his car.







It's fun keeping up with you guys, Louis


_Modified by starcar at 5:43 PM 11-12-2005_


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## reneestreg (May 25, 2005)

*Re: (dcowan699)*

I'm praying for Phaeton to stay in the US.
Werner
URL edited to provide clickable link - Michael
I'm praying too. It makes us all sick!!! The main thing is to not panic. I feel this whole thing is getting blown out of proportion in some ways. We still own great cars and the thing to do is just not give in and allow dealers to undermine the value of these cars in the future. If they give you a "slap in the face" quote on wholesale, walk away from them. I'd rather be making two car payments than let a dealer of any brand steal my car at cut throat prices on a trade.
We, the current owners should stand firm and keep the prices stablilized if not actually make the prices go up. I say anyone selling one on Ebay raise the price 10% today. That is the only way to win this battle. Since we, the owners, are now the only source of Phaetons here in the states, we should be the ones in control of the prices. Don't cut yourself short and we can stablilize the depreciation. In fact, like I said before , raise your residuals 10% !!!
What would be wrong with us creating a price list evaluation right here on the forum as a guideline as to what to sell a Phaeton for , if and when you are ready to sell. 
State mileage, year, color, options and we could create our own Blue Book right here on the forum.
Just an idea.

This does work on a limited production car. Look at the blue book on a NSX and then look at what they are really selling for. 
Keeping the value up on the Phaeton would be a very easy task as the amount of Phaetons built are very few.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (Rex Flash)*

Hi Rex:
Great to hear back from you. I'm in Zürich now, and will be back in Canada probably in early December. I'm looking forward to the dinner.
Michael


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: (PhaetonChix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhaetonChix* »_Jim,
I guess I could ask the same question about the Touareg...why spend big bucks on a VW when you can have a Porsche or now an Audi Q7? What about the average Touareg owner that does not follow the Internet, has a just ok dealer and has limited experience with the complexities the Touareg has to offer? There are far more Touaregs with poor service issues (and build issues for that matter) than Phaetons.
The Phaeton Touareg project I was involved in showed BOTH vehicles in their best light...why can't you?
~PC 

_Modified by PhaetonChix at 3:21 PM 11-12-2005_

PC,
You are very correct. There have been tons of technical issues with the Touareg and way too many reports of poor dealer service. This has lead to very poor ratings for the Touareg, alot of reports of buybacks and quite high depreciation. The advantage that the Touareg has going for it is the sales volume is 20 to 30 times higher and VWNA hasn't abandon it, yet. 
Please don't get me wrong. I think the Phaeton is a great car but for whatever reason VWNA has decided to discontinue it in NA. My comments have been on what I believe will happen with the car, general ownership, value and dealer service in the future. Who knows. Maybe the Phaeton will be like the old '91-'94 Audi V8 quattro. It was discontinued for 2 years only to be reintroduced in '97 as the A8. 



_Modified by spockcat at 9:43 PM 11-12-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (spockcat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *spockcat* »_...Maybe the Phaeton will be like the old '91-'94 Audi V8 quattro. It was discontinued for 2 years only to be reintroduced in '97 as the A8. 

Hmmm - that's a very interesting thought!
Michael


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## PC Dave (Nov 29, 2001)

*Re: Copy of the letter from HQ (PanEuropean)*

Michael, thanks for posting that letter. Whatever happens, this will likely stand as the most informed, technically competent and politically"wired" forum that I'll be a member of.
A couple of the comments stand out. The first is that "we will provide ongoing support for the expected life of these vehicles." I hope that Chris and Rick are right that this is a temporary suspension, but that line doesn't give me much confidence. BTW, does anyone know what the "expected life" of the Phaeton is, from VWoA's perspective?
Second, the line "At the end of the model year, we can assure you that the close-out program will be sufficient", referring (I believe) to dealer inventory. In the Schadenfreude thread in the "Car Lounge" forum, somebody noted a dealer ad for a new V8 at $20k off MSRP, before this news came out. I wonder if we'll be playing a game of "how low can it go?" next summer, and even more so if there are unsold cars a year from now. My understanding is that W12's are now only being imported to order, and presumably dealers will be very careful before they put in a W12 order going forward, so few (or no) W12's will still be around at the end of the model year without somebody's name on them. Is that accurate? Could a dealer-affiliated person give a sense of that? That would mean that they're still importing V8's on spec to some degree, so any spec V8's imported in the next several months that are unsold, plus unsold cars out of current inventory (today), could be the bargain of a lifetime if the close-out program is truly "sufficient"; those new car prices will also, by definition, push the prices of used Phaetons down (all those '04's coming off lease). 
If you own a Phaeton now, I agree with Michael that the best thing to do is drive it and enjoy it. If you don't own one yet, or if you're leasing, this could be a great opportunity to buy one of the best cars ever made. I really believe that we will never see this much car for this little money again.


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: Copy of the letter from HQ (PC Dave)*

and here's the link to "the deal of the century" .....they're just blowing them out. This is such an outrage- this vehicle demands more respect. What I wonder is really what is the cost of VW to produce a Phaeton? How much money's involved from start to finish? 
http://www.cobaltnitra.com/web...e=new


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## stjarna (Aug 18, 2005)

*Re: (dcowan699)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dcowan699* »_
On my way to Atlanta today, I got stares left and right. You can feel them looking at you partly because they suddenly slow down to get a good look. As cars passed, the passengers would nearly break their necks at they turned and looked hard at the Phaeton.

I experience this as well. Lots of other cars trying to keep pace with me and/or trying to read the insignias on the car. I get the break-neck action as other cars pass too. Plus, the occassional thumbs up. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Copy of the letter from HQ (PC Dave)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PC Dave* »_..."we will provide ongoing support for the expected life of these vehicles." ... does anyone know what the "expected life" of the Phaeton is, from VWoA's perspective?

I believe that both American and Canadian transportation safety regulations require that an importer provide support for a vehicle for a minimum of 10 years - possibly even as long as 15 years - since the date that the last vehicle was imported. So, that's really a non-issue for us. Besides, VW has a well established history of supporting products - you can still go into any VW shop and get parts for a Corrado, a Sirocco, a Transporter, and in some cases, even for an old air-cooled Beetle. Honestly, parts and service support is the *least *of my concerns. Parts will never be a problem, and service will probably actually improve as certain VW dealers who genuinely like the car begin to emerge as 'service specialists' for the car. For example, my dealer only sold one Phaeton (to me), but now services about 8 Phaetons on a regular basis.

_Quote, originally posted by *PC Dave* »_... "At the end of the model year, we can assure you that the close-out program will be sufficient...

Geez, I don't know anything about auto industry internal double-speak, and that's what that statement sounds like to me. VW of NA has probably already committed to the factory (Automobilemanufactur Dresden GmbH) that they will buy a certain number of 2006 cars, and I am sure there are cars in the pipeline, on the boat, at the port, etc. Likely what VW in Auburn Hills will do is arrange to direct the remainder of the 2006 Phaetons to dealers who have already enjoyed success selling the Phaeton, and they will probably provide marketing support to those dealers. I don't think we're going to see any 'dumping' of 2006 Phaetons. 
There might be the odd dealer out there who has one on a 'floor-plan' (inventory financing scheme) that is rapidly approaching its sell-by date, who will want to cut his or her losses and run - that probably accounts for the link to the single heavily discounted car posted above. I doubt, though, that we will see that across the board. It wouldn't make sense for either the importer or the manufacturer.
Michael


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Copy of the letter from HQ (viscount)*

http://www.cobaltnitra.com/web...e=new
I will not be out done by these volume dealers. I'm now going to raise the price of my car another $20K.
_Doing what I can to keep the price up._ http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Regards,
Brent


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## trekguy (Aug 16, 2004)

*Re: Copy of the letter from HQ (W126C)*

My 1996 MB SL320 lost 78% of its purchase price in the 8 years and 114,000 miles of meticulous ownership. That being said, when my Phaeton reaches a similiar milestone, I won't be surprised from its low residual value.
I say drive them, enjoy them for all they have to offer, and revel in the exclusivity of the model.


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## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Phaeton - An appropriate name if you plan to crash and burn...*

There is a somewhat interesting connection between the naming of the Phaeton and how it crashed and burned in the North American marketplace. 
For those of you unaware of the etymology of the name Phaeton, here it is in a nutshell:
Phaeton
The son of the sun-god Helios. When Phaeton ("the shining one") finally learned who his father was, he went east to meet him. He induced his father to allow him to drive the chariot of the sun across the heavens for one day. The horses, feeling their reins held by a weaker hand, ran wildly out of their course and came close to the earth, threatening to burn it. Zeus noticed the danger and with a thunderbolt he destroyed Phaeton. He fell down into the legendary river Eridanus where he was found by the river nymphs who mourned him and buried him. The tears of these nymphs turned into amber. For the Ethiopians however it was already too late: they were scorched by the heat and their skins had turned black.
for a more complete version of the story, see Blufinch's Mythology

I posted these ramblings in another thread, but perhaps it is more appropriate here...

I think a major reason the Phaeton sold so poorly in North America was that is was never marketed. I bet most people in North America have never heard of a Phaeton AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, don't realize that VW produces a high-end vehicle.
I had never heard of the Phaeton - until one of the guys mentioned it while we were playing poker. I thought he was joking - really joking - except I knew that he really knew his automobiles... I thought all VW made was Beetles (the Love Bug) and vans with a tent that popped up from the roof and a "peace sign" painted on the side. I had this "Cheech and Chong", late 60s, early 70s fuzzy feel about VW.... and I had absolutely no idea that VW produced a high-end automobile.
I had been looking at the S-class, the 7-series, Lexus, Infiniti, Jaguar, Volvo. That is all I really knew... These brands are marketed well... and the public is aware of them. I think most of the people in North America looking to purchase a vehicle of this caliber are just like me in that they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to what is in the marketplace. Since the buyer does not even know to go to a VW dealership to look at one of these cars, they are not going to sell. The people seeing the Phaeton at the dealership are not the people who are potential buyers.
It would be like Wal-Mart selling custom made suits. - I have only been in a Wal-Mart a handful of times (but more times than most people visit a VW dealership - I had never been to a VW dealership before)... and never to buy clothing. I have a tailor that makes my suits.. I know who to call and how to get a suit.... Wal-Mart could be selling the finest custom suits in the world, with tailors from Saville Row... and giving them away too... and I would never buy one if they kept it a secret... Why did VW keep the Phaeton a secret??

So, perhaps we are not giving VW the credit it is due... I can't think of anyone dumb enough to build one of the finest vehicle production facilities in the world, produce one of the finest saloon vehicles the world has ever seen and then not tell anyone about it. It is incomprehensible that the management at VW overlooked marketing in their equation to sell vehicles. (Maybe their Marketing Department was never told about the Phaeton - I wonder how many of them know it exists).
So, perhaps VW fully expected Phaeton to crash and burn... and so appropriately named the vehicle. There are financial upsides as reneestreg pointed out (but not necessarily for the VW Brand).

_Quote, originally posted by *reneestreg* »_
Hey, if I could build a factory to produce one product knowing it would phase out so I could sell the factory off to another corp. I owned for a dollar, write off the expense of building the factory under the first corp. and buy it for pennies under the second corp. I would be all over it.


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## dtwphaeton (Sep 7, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (CapoVWSales)*

I've spent the weekend following the Forum and trying to decide how I feel. It is almost impossible to believe that VWoA is so incompetent that they could let such a truly outstanding vehicle fail like this. But, their almost complete lack of marketing support and their very weak customer service organization tell me that with the exception of a small number of true believers, they never had their heart in this project to begin with. 
That said, I am not the least bit worried about future service and parts support. They have a legal obligation to provide parts and service for many years, and, as Michael and others have pointed out already, there has been no shortage of support for other vehicles they have discontinued or superseded. Whether they supported the Phaeton project appropriately or not, they could not possibly be so short-sighted as to risk alienating a group of customers who could obviously buy any other Volkswagen or Audi product.
Likewise I do not think we really should be too worried about resale value. I have the impression that many of us on the forum leased our cars, so the leasing company is bearing all the residual value risk anyway. For those of us who bought -- well, depreciation on any car in this segment is fairly scary, and we couldn't have anticipated making a killing when we sold in any case. My view is, buy what you like and can afford, and keep it as long as it is giving you reliable and pleasurable service. In the case of the Phaeton, I think that will be a very long time.
On balance, I've decided that as corny as it sounds, I'm going to view the Phaeton and the Phaeton community as a secret, enchanted garden that is thoroughly enjoyable to those very few who know about it. 
Of course, I just hadn't planned on joining quite THIS exclusive a club, but that doesn't make me reqret my decision at all.


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## riccone (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (dtwphaeton)*

I as well have been digesting this information. What I look for when buying a car has not changed; comfort, performance, limited production. I don't like driving a car I see continually on the road. All of the above criteria have not changed. Any well made car will run 200,000 miles today if you take care of it. I would expect to see a short term increase in depreciation IF you sell now. For those of you who leased; can't see where you are hurt. For those of you who paid cash before the discounts; in the short term you will see a decrease in value. I suspect however, these folks were not planning on selling their cars in the short term anyway. For those of us who paid cash after the discounting; why care? On a percentage basis, I can't see anymore depreciation on these cars then other luxury cars. For those of you have said "hold your price" I agree with you. Turning a P Car into a dealer on a trade-in is financial suicide. This is car you advertise and sell yourself. Aren't we almost to the point today that a loaded Passat sells for more then a "used" P Car? Would you buy a new loaded Passat or a P Car used with 30K miles on it?
Is this fact still not true; one would pay more then $100K duplicating this car?
Lastly. Perhaps some of us will change our car buying habits. Instead of buying a new luxury car every 1 or 2 years, why not buy a "daily driver" and save the P Car for long trips? Buying a used daily driver you will have 2 cars, 1 of which will give you great enjoyment and last you 10 years? In addition, you will probably be money ahead. Just compare the depreciation we have all endured buying luxury cars repeatedly and what a second car will cost.


----------



## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (riccone)*

I agree with the last two posts completely. I have a daily car and save my precious Faye to keep until I end this "Tour of duty".(hopefully more than 10 years) I am working even harder to remake the front emblem to say Phaeton in the circle thanks to the advise and drawing I got from the "Enchanted Garden"
Don


----------



## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

*Re: (spockcat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *spockcat* »_Chris,
Does VW pay for the time of the tech when they go to the training session? How about the lost profit of that time to the dealership? How about tech turnover? Will a dealer owner bother to have a tech newly trained on a car they no longer sell? 
I am not saying that every dealer owner will do this. But I believe over time fewer and fewer VW dealers will be capable of working on these cars due to the lack of investment on the part of the dealer owners. This will lead to more negativity on the part of owners and ever lower values of the cars.
I think these cars will end up in clusters around 10 to 20 major dealerships in metropolitan areas. As long as the owners do not require service outside of those areas they will be fine. But try getting the car serviced properly in Nebraska or Vermont.

_Modified by spockcat at 12:11 PM 11-12-2005_

Jim,
Vermont was in theory a part of my territory during the Phaeton Touareg Luxury...just an FYI...there was NO Phaeton dealer in the state of Vermont; however there was a very good Phaeton dealer in Kenne, NH and another good store in Nashua. 
The same dealers that were committed to the Phaeton when it was first introduced will be the same dealers to offer excellent service in the future. I'm sure that will come as no shock to anyone.
And any Audi dealer will be able to service the majority of Phaetons, at least as far as basic maintenance, tranny and drive train issues. I know of a fantastic VW Audi store in Oneonta, NY (basically the middle of the Upstate NY) that I will feel very comfortable taking my car to, even if they no longer carry Phaetons.
~PC


----------



## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (riccone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *riccone* »_I as well have been digesting this information. What I look for when buying a car has not changed; comfort, performance, limited production. I don't like driving a car I see continually on the road. All of the above criteria have not changed. Any well made car will run 200,000 miles today if you take care of it. I would expect to see a short term increase in depreciation IF you sell now. For those of you who leased; can't see where you are hurt. For those of you who paid cash before the discounts; in the short term you will see a decrease in value. I suspect however, these folks were not planning on selling their cars in the short term anyway. For those of us who paid cash after the discounting; why care? On a percentage basis, I can't see anymore depreciation on these cars then other luxury cars. For those of you have said "hold your price" I agree with you. Turning a P Car into a dealer on a trade-in is financial suicide. This is car you advertise and sell yourself. Aren't we almost to the point today that a loaded Passat sells for more then a "used" P Car? Would you buy a new loaded Passat or a P Car used with 30K miles on it?
Is this fact still not true; one would pay more then $100K duplicating this car?
Lastly. Perhaps some of us will change our car buying habits. Instead of buying a new luxury car every 1 or 2 years, why not buy a "daily driver" and save the P Car for long trips? Buying a used daily driver you will have 2 cars, 1 of which will give you great enjoyment and last you 10 years? In addition, you will probably be money ahead. Just compare the depreciation we have all endured buying luxury cars repeatedly and what a second car will cost. 


Excellent post and the last part is so true. In fact, I plan now to drive my truck to work everyday and keeps the miles down on the Phaeton. Other than driving it to keep the battery in shape, I plan to keep it clean and use it for the big trips. Next week my wife and I are going to Destin Florida in it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Again, it's nice to know that people will ask me about this car and now I get to say, "I love it but you can't have one"


----------



## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: (PhaetonChix)*

Dear PhaetonChix,
Based on you excellent knowledge, would you have a recommendation in the Phoenix area. 
Don


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (dcowan699)*

David,
Where is Destin near?
I spent most of my youth in Florida (Go Gators)
Don


----------



## ryangambrill (Aug 1, 2005)

*Re: (GripperDon)*

This is really a sad day. I have a 2005 Touareg, and was looking forward to a Phaeton for my next vehicle.
My only hope is that they bring it back in a few years when VWoA has their marketing act together.
If they do not bring it back, just have to go with the sister vehcile, the A8.


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

*Az Dealers*

Don,
I've lost contact with my training partner that covered your part of the world. I'd call PCC for a referral. I'd think the Scottsdale store would be a good one...
~PC


----------



## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (GripperDon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GripperDon* »_David,
Where is Destin near?
I spent most of my youth in Florida (Go Gators)
Don 

It is just east of Pensacola, FL which is not far from Mobile, AL.
My accountant lets us stay there once a year for free!


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (dcowan699)*

Am I missing something or is it true that their is not a single Phaeton on Ebay right now? I was just curious to see if any prices had dropped or gone up and I can't even find Phaeton as a model option right now in the sub-category list.
All other models of VW are listed but not the Phaeton.
I saw on autotrader.com where someone has a W12 with 8000 miles on it for $88K! You go man!


_Modified by dcowan699 at 1:53 PM 11-13-2005_


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## quiettrader (Dec 10, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (dcowan699)*

You are missing something.At least three on there for sale.


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## stjarna (Aug 18, 2005)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (quiettrader)*

Don't use the categories. There is no category for Phaeton on eBay. Put "Phaeton" in the search box instead. More than eight or nine are on there today.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (loganflatt)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Their is a new campanella white on there that looks pretty hot.


_Modified by dcowan699 at 5:23 PM 11-13-2005_


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## AusSalzburg (Nov 4, 2004)

*Re: (ryangambrill)*

ryangambrill said *"If they do not bring it back, just have to go with the sister vehcile, the A8".*
That is the point I've always made in the past. I DO NOT want to leave the brand for a luxury auto, SUV, or economi car. I want to stay within VW. You Volks need the same in the US. 
I've read many comments about the Phaeton on other Forums like "That is why there's Audi A8". So here is my frustrating 2 euro cents worth.
For North America: Don't bring the EOS. Audi already has the A4 Cabriolet.
Don't bring any more Golf's. Audi already has the A3. Or it can be the other way around. Audi, don't bring the A3 any more. The US already has the Golf, GTI and R32.
Stop with the Touareg. Audi and Porsche have one.
No more Passat and Jetta's while your at it. That's why we have A4's and A6's.
VW might as well call it quits in the US and close the doors.
For the European market: I feel lucky. It's simple.
If you can't afford an Audi model, buy the same as a VW model.
If you can't afford the VW, buy the Seat.
If you can't afford the Seat, buy the Skoda.
I'm deticated to the VW emblem in front of my car and don't care what anybody thinks. For the first time ever, I don't have to leave the brand to buy what I want. VW has it all for me. From the bottom all the way to the top. 
My US friends, keep praying for the same choices soon. Your time is due.
Werner




_Modified by AusSalzburg at 3:43 PM 11-13-2005_


----------



## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (AusSalzburg)*

Werner,
Thanks so much for posting one of the best thought out statements I've seen yet on this forum. What you said seems dead on accurate. Your statement proves that among all the vehicle categories in the U.S., it's the expensive ones that have to have a strong badge to make a difference. That is truly a shame. 
We also have to blame the media for some of the demise of the U.S. Phaeton lovefest. They did all they could to shoot down the Phaeton.
However , Road and Track wrote up an excellent long term update on the Phaeton this month. I was impressed.
Also, Werner could I get you to email me. I have a question for you if you don't mind.
My email address is in my profile.



_Modified by dcowan699 at 5:59 PM 11-13-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (AusSalzburg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AusSalzburg* »_
For the European market: I feel lucky. It's simple.
If you can't afford an Audi model, buy the same as a VW model.
If you can't afford the VW, buy the Seat.
If you can't afford the Seat, buy the Skoda.

Hi Werner:
Well














- I'm not sure I would go along with that. I'd rather walk than drive an Audi. My experience, in CH at least, is that 4 interlocking rings is the international symbol for an arrogant person behind the wheel. If I can't get another Phaeton from VW in Canada when my current lease is up, I'll just get another Golf TDI, which was what I had before the Phaeton. However - I might try extra-hard to get leather seats in the Golf this time.
Michael


----------



## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Hi Werner:
Well














- I'm not sure I would go along with that. I'd rather walk than drive an Audi. My experience, in CH at least, is that 4 interlocking rings is the international symbol for an arrogant person behind the wheel. If I can't get another Phaeton from VW in Canada when my current lease is up, I'll just get another Golf TDI, which was what I had before the Phaeton. However - I might try extra-hard to get leather seats in the Golf this time.
Michael

Just goes to show you that we all have our bias'


----------



## dtwphaeton (Sep 7, 2004)

*Made the front page of Automotive News at least ...*

Here is the text of their story:
VW yanks Phaeton from U.S. market

By Diana T. Kurylko and Wim Oude Weernink
Automotive News / November 14, 2005
Volkswagen AG is admitting defeat with the Phaeton. VW plans to pull the slow-selling luxury car from the U.S. market next summer. 
The Phaeton is losing money in the United States. "It is not a viable business case anymore," says Hans-Gerd Bode, a VW spokesman at the company's global headquarters in Wolfsburg, Germany. 
The decision to pull the plug was made by Wolfgang Bernhard, head of the VW brand worldwide, and Adrian Hallmark, the new executive vice president of Volkswagen of America Inc. 
The executives decided Volkswagen will focus on being a volume player in the U.S. market instead of trying to move up-market, Bode says. 
"Bernhard and Hallmark said, 'We are a volume producer, and let's go in this direction, beginning with the U.S. market, where we are losing a lot of money,' " Bode says. 
Slumping sales 
The Phaeton's U.S. sales tumbled to 686 in the first 10 months of 2005 from 1,433 in the year-ago period. That's a 52.1 percent drop. 
VW prices the Phaeton at $68,655 for a V-8 model, including a $1,300 gas-guzzler charge. The 12-cylinder version starts at $100,255, including a $3,000 gas guzzler charge. 
By contrast, the most expensive four-door VW Passat sedan starts at $32,515 for a 3.6-liter VR6 model. 
VW plans to announce the Phaeton decision to dealers today, Nov. 14. Wolfsburg expects Phaeton sales to end in the U.S. market next July or August. 
The company will not send the 2007 Phaeton here. 
VW will continue to provide customer support to Phaeton owners, Bode says. 
VW's U.S. market will focus on core vehicles, including the Passat, Jetta, Golf and Touareg, Bode says, along with new models such as the Eos convertible that is due early next year. 
The company's U.S. dealers will get a car above the Passat as part of a product offensive that Bernhard has promised for 2008 and beyond. 
Since VW launched the Phaeton in the U.S. market in 2003, the car has not approached its initial sales target of 5,000 a year. This year, the Phaeton does not appear to be on track to hit its lowered U.S. sales target of 1,000. 
VWoA offered $10,000 in dealer cash last year on 2004 models. 
Bode says it was probably a mistake for VW to launch the Touareg and the Phaeton together. Marketing wasn't sufficient to position both vehicles strategically, he says. 
VWoA's marketing also has been inconsistent, Bode says: "In the last year, we didn't have a good marketing effort in the U.S. Today we do this, and tomorrow we do that." 
Bode says VWoA's continued losses also affected the decision to yank the Phaeton. VW expected to turn around its fortunes in the United States this year with redesigned versions of the Jetta and Passat and a freshened New Beetle. 
This month, though, Wolfsburg announced this year's losses at VWoA are expected to top last year's loss of $1.07 billion. 
Chris Curran, a Volkswagen dealer in Stratford, Conn., says "it's no surprise" VW is dropping the Phaeton. 
"As the volumes got smaller," says Curran, "they decided they didn't have enough funds to support stronger incentive programs." 
Curran says the Phaeton represented too big a jump for traditional VW buyers to make. At the same time, he says, luxury buyers did not gravitate to the car. 
Says Curran: "People in that high-price range are buying prestige and image, and want the logo to represent that."


----------



## JettaWolf03 (Jun 4, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (digifant_gli)*

Honestly, 
It was a mistake to introduce the Phaeton without:
1) significant steady up-market growth
VW introduced the Phaeton nearly alongside the Touareg, which was a large mistake. It was also a large mistake to overshoot the price point of the brand in general, for which VW is continually being critisized. Face it, few people will buy a VW for prestige, so price the car in the mid-40's and watch them fly off the lot. 68K for a VW is rediculous, always has been, always will be. If I had 68K+ to drop on a car I would be after the A8, 7-Series or S-class.
I hope that VW pulls some of the technology and excellent craftsmanship into its other models. The passat and upcoming 'larger than the passat' model could benefit from the lessons learned (good and bad) from building this car. 
Preferrably, I would love for VW to create a true competent 3-series rival for 10-15K less. You then match price point, brand image and style component. This is the direction VW should be going after. It tried to be too much too fast and I am sure the weak dollar didn't help matters.
-wolf


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## Tail Spin (Oct 28, 2004)

Timing was perfect...execution was wrong.
Everyone I know is leaving MB (no longer associated with quality since Chrysler) and BMW (I drive nightmare) for AUDI, LEXUS, or INFINITI.
There is room for Phaeton, just not VW, just like there isn't room for TOYOTA or NISSAN.


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: Made the front page of Automotive News at least ... (dtwphaeton)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dtwphaeton* »_Here is the text of their story:
VW yanks Phaeton from U.S. market

By Diana T. Kurylko and Wim Oude Weernink
Automotive News / November 14, 2005
*"Bernhard and Hallmark said, 'We are a volume producer, and let's go in this direction, beginning with the U.S. market, where we are losing a lot of money,' " Bode says. *

What do you make of this quote? I makes me wonder if VW may eventually end the entire Phaeton program, or change the car so it is no longer a VW?


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (JettaWolf03)*

I totally disagree. The whole reason for failure was the total lack of advertisement. If you see advertising, then you will see more of the cars on the road from time to time, you then feel you are joining a trend and most people will jump onto that trend regardless of brand.
Case in point:
Why would anyone want to buy a pair of jeans that practically fall of your body? That can't be fun walking around pulling up your pants all day, tripping over the excessive material at your feet.... but guess what? That style of jean is advertised, kids buy them and you now see them being worn all over the malls and theaters.
Proper advertising would have done it. It might not have been selling like a Lexus yet, but I know this would have stopped the news we heard last Friday.
If you had seen a Phaeton on a TV ad while watching a prime time TV show or even a football game, you would've said, "Hey, that's that car so-and-so down the street has. I'm gonna have to check that out".
But nobody knows about it.
I don't think timing of product intoduction has anything to do with it. I also don't see how re-introducing a new and improved P car will be successful in a couple of years either if the marketing doesn't change.


----------



## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

What will happen if VW introduces a "a lower cost Phaeton look alike" Could they?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: (GripperDon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GripperDon* »_What will happen if VW introduces a "a lower cost Phaeton look alike" Could they?

Make the models the V6 TDI and the V8 as the top of the line. Compete with the MB E class and BMW 5 series. (Doesn't VW offer a 2wd model in Germany? VW.de doesn't show it in the technical data section.) Maybe even offer a 2wd SWB V6 gas model. Then make the W12 an special order only model once the car is well established.


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## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re: Made the front page of Automotive News at least ... (spockcat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *spockcat* »_
"Bernhard and Hallmark said, 'We are a volume producer, and let's go in this direction, beginning with the U.S. market, where we are losing a lot of money,' " Bode says. 
What do you make of this quote? I makes me wonder if VW may eventually end the entire Phaeton program, or change the car so it is no longer a VW?

That is exactly what I was afraid of when they announced Bernhard (a former BMW man) as the new CEO of VW. They go out and hire someone with a preconceived idea of what they think VW is.
When they speak of volume, certainly they do not plan to take on Toyota Nissan or Honda. They'll lose that for sure. Just look at GM and Ford.
The fact is the market is going towards specialty and unique. Even Toyota understands that and came out with the Sicon brand.
VW has started on the right track. They should gear about half of their production towards everyday volume cara and the other half towards specialty cars in each segment. They need a racing program to build their image in order to move people upscale.
The Phaeton should stay in the USA even if it is offered as a special order only. The Phaeton should be filled with all the latest technology form the racing program and toys for the luxury market. A dealer would only have to order one if they had a client that wanted one.
Unfortunately, like so many people in life it looks like the leadership at VW only sees VW future the same as its past.
This is very sad as it does not have to be this way. That quote above says it all.


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## Gobuster (May 19, 2005)

*Re: (spockcat)*

In reality, the Phaeton of today is competing with the E class and 5 series. I was out checking leases and you can get a P car for less than either. When I leased my 2005 4-seater V8 a few months ago, the lease was the same as for an E 350 with less equipment, a car that stickered at $28,000 less! I agree with David, no advertising = no sales! Only the well informaed know about the Phaeton.
Picture this scenario - as Phaetons become unavailable new, the only source will be used ones. As these cars fall into the hands of those who appreciate what they are, it will become harder and harder to find someone willing to sell at bargain basement prices, so, I suspect, used prices will firm up over the next few years, especially if VW continues to support the car with parts and customer care. 
I'm seriously thinking about leasing a second P car now to replace a BMW going off lease in 12 months but that is a bit of a stretch!


----------



## starcar (Jul 9, 2005)

*Re: (Gobuster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Gobuster* »_... especially if VW continues to support the car with parts and customer care. 

Do you guys think VW will keep 1-877-PHAETON and Phaeton Customer Care, or let it go?


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (spockcat)*

> Is there some written confirmation of this? A press release perhaps?
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtscha....html


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (starcar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *starcar* »_
Do you guys think VW will keep 1-877-PHAETON and Phaeton Customer Care, or let it go?










My bet is on that they will drop that.


----------



## sirAQUAMAN64 (Oct 25, 2004)

*Re: (dcowan699)*

I'm not at all impressed with the new leadership of VW AG or VWoA.
Once Piech is forced out of the board, the Phaeton will disappear. 
A sad, sad day







http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## sirAQUAMAN64 (Oct 25, 2004)

*Re: (AusSalzburg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AusSalzburg* »_ryangambrill said *"If they do not bring it back, just have to go with the sister vehcile, the A8".*
That is the point I've always made in the past. I DO NOT want to leave the brand for a luxury auto, SUV, or economi car. I want to stay within VW. You Volks need the same in the US. 
I've read many comments about the Phaeton on other Forums like "That is why there's Audi A8". So here is my frustrating 2 euro cents worth.
For North America: Don't bring the EOS. Audi already has the A4 Cabriolet.
Don't bring any more Golf's. Audi already has the A3. Or it can be the other way around. Audi, don't bring the A3 any more. The US already has the Golf, GTI and R32.
Stop with the Touareg. Audi and Porsche have one.
No more Passat and Jetta's while your at it. That's why we have A4's and A6's.
VW might as well call it quits in the US and close the doors.
For the European market: I feel lucky. It's simple.
If you can't afford an Audi model, buy the same as a VW model.
If you can't afford the VW, buy the Seat.
If you can't afford the Seat, buy the Skoda.
I'm deticated to the VW emblem in front of my car and don't care what anybody thinks. For the first time ever, I don't have to leave the brand to buy what I want. VW has it all for me. From the bottom all the way to the top. 
My US friends, keep praying for the same choices soon. Your time is due.
Werner


That's how I've felt as well.
VW is the people's car... from bottom to top. The main brand had it all.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (sirAQUAMAN64)*

If they don't bring the Phaeton back, I'll have to go with the 'little cousin' vehicle, the *Golf*. To heck with Audi...


----------



## vwtdipwr (Sep 9, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

wow, i read both posts in the car loung and here and what a difference in community. i gave my .02 in the car lounge. 
love my car and now will keep it for a long time!!!


----------



## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

*Re: (vwtdipwr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwtdipwr* »_wow, i read both posts in the car lounge and here and what a difference in community. i gave my .02 in the car lounge. 
love my car and now will keep it for a long time!!!

The ghouls in the CL have a very negative outlook on everything, except the Polo. I've held off posting anything in their Phaeton thread 'cause THEY JUST DON"T GET IT! They also like to gang up on young folks with nice cars. Frankly, the CL is a hot bed of immaturity.
(jumps off soap box)
~PC


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## Quicks (Jul 22, 2004)

*Volkswagen to Pull Phaeton From U.S. Market Next Year*

November 14, 2005 12:57 p.m. EST
Volkswagen to Pull Phaeton
From U.S. Market Next Year
By JOHN D. STOLL
DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
November 14, 2005 12:57 p.m.
DETROIT -- Volkswagen AG will pull its pricey Phaeton sedan from the U.S. market in February following the car's mediocre reception from American buyers and the company's attempt to focus more intently on offering affordable products.
Volkswagen of America Inc. spokesman Tony Fouladpour said the Phaeton, which sells for between $68,000 and $104,000, "fell a little bit short of our expectations." The company launched the car in late 2003, but sales have not met initial targets. The company is currently selling only 90 Phaetons a month, Mr. Fouladpour said. The company will continue offering the Phaeton in Europe.
The Phaeton came to the U.S. at a time when Volkswagen was trying to retool its brand's image to better chase high-end luxury brands, including German competitors BMW AG and DaimlerChrysler AG's Mercedes brand. It has struggled in the venture, however, partly because Volkswagen also owns Audi, which sells luxury cars in the U.S. that compete with Volkswagen in some cases.
Volkswagen is now focused on emphasizing its cheaper "core products," Mr. Fouladpour said, including the Jetta and Passat sedans.
"I think what you're seeing here are some hard business decisions being made," the spokesman said.
Mr. Fouladpour said the company is readying a product push that will result in between five and 10 new vehicles populating Volkswagen's U.S. product lineup by the end of the decade.
Through October, Volkswagen sales are off 17% compared to the same period in 2004, according to data-tracking firm Autodata Corp. The brand has struggled despite increasing incentives from traditional levels and offering updated models, even while Japanese competitors continue to consume U.S. market share utilizing relatively minimal discounts and rebates.
Volkswagen, like U.S. competitors General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co., is losing money in North American automotive operations while facing high labor and materials costs that are driving up the price of manufacturing in its home market. The company recently has retooled its management ranks, including the naming of Adrian Hallmark to head U.S. operations.
Volkswagen executives concede the company will lose money in North America once again this year, but the auto maker is aiming to restore profitability in the near future. Wolfgang Bernhard, the head of Volkswagen's global operations, recently told U.S. dealers to expect the brand to venture into segments where it currently doesn't compete.
Write to John D. Stoll at [email protected]
URL for this article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/....html
Hyperlinks in this Article:
(1) [email protected] 
Copyright 2005 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved
This copy is for your personal, non-commercial use only. Distribution and use of this material are governed by our Subscriber Agreement and by copyright law. For non-personal use or to order multiple copies, please contact Dow Jones Reprints at


----------



## vwtdipwr (Sep 9, 2001)

*Re: (PhaetonChix)*








how true!!!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Volkswagen to Pull Phaeton From U.S. Market Next Year (spockcat)*

No, Jim, I don't think it is a case of Dow Jones being the last to know. I think it is more a case of Dow Jones taking the time to phone VW and speak to Mr. Fouladpour, whereas the other news organizations simply reprinted the story that Autoweek broke first thing in the morning.
Michael


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## Docroger (Nov 29, 2003)

*Re: Made the front page of Automotive News at least ... (dtwphaeton)*

While the news comes as no surprise, I will lament the passing of this superb automobile. I've got 25K Miles on my V8 now, and it's been completely trouble free! I've got a year left on my lease. I would hope that my VW dealer will continue to provide the service that I expect, including a loaner vehicle, for the duration of my lease. I would seriously consider leasing another VW (maybe a Touareg) based on the superb experience I've had with my Phaeton; however, that would hinge on continuing to receive excellent dealer service.
Of course, with so few sold in the states, I would consider buying the vehicle at the end of lease (or even buying a new one at the end of lease) as I certainly think these will be collectors items in the not too distant future.
And that stereo......


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## viscount (Jan 2, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

how hard is it to buy a car in Europe and ship it over here anyway?
Ed


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## akuska (Sep 1, 2005)

*Re: (sirAQUAMAN64)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sirAQUAMAN64* »_I'm not at all impressed with the new leadership of VW AG or VWoA.
Once Piech is forced out of the board, the Phaeton will disappear. 
A sad, sad day







http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

Remember, it was Piech who bought "Rolls Royce Motor Cars" for over $500 million, and Pischetschrieder who bought the Rolls Royce name for 1/10th that.
Piech is part of the problem. He is behind VW's incestuous relationship with Porsche, and is stacking the supervisory board to leave himself in power much to the chagrin of VW's other shareholders.


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## akuska (Sep 1, 2005)

*Re: (AusSalzburg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AusSalzburg* »_ryangambrill said *"If they do not bring it back, just have to go with the sister vehcile, the A8".*
That is the point I've always made in the past. I DO NOT want to leave the brand for a luxury auto, SUV, or economi car. I want to stay within VW. You Volks need the same in the US. 
I've read many comments about the Phaeton on other Forums like "That is why there's Audi A8". So here is my frustrating 2 euro cents worth.


However, GM tried this in the 1980s and early 1990s, and it still hasn't fully recovered. Oldsmobile and Buick pretty much overlapped Chevy and Cadillac completely.
I like VW's moves to differentiate VW and Audi. Where VW/Audi still overlap (such as the A3 2.0T vs. GLI/GTI), I find it very difficult to differentiate the two and justify the Audi premium.
Putting the Passat on a different platform from the A4 is a good start. Leaving the Phaeton platform for Audi (in the form of the A8) is also a good move. Phaeton threatened A8 pricing, and its dismal sales and high development costs drained resources from VW when they should have been putting out the new Jetta and Passat a year sooner.
Finally, VW should keep Marrakesh to itself, while the Audi Q7 should supplant the Touareg, IMO.
If properly done, VW/Audi differentiation could encourage big city dealerships to sell both VWs and Audis (expanding the Audi network). Right now, doing so would just undermine Audi.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (viscount)*


_Quote, originally posted by *viscount* »_how hard is it to buy a car in Europe and ship it over here anyway?
Ed

My question is the other way around. What happens if we can't get a decent price for a trade- in? Would their be a market in Europe for used Phaetons that might get us a better value for our cars if one were to want to unload one in a year or two? I mean, my gosh, our cars would be a bargain to them now even at what we originally paid.
If they are paying $160K for a W12 brand new, looks like $100K would be a great price to them. This has to be too easy or else someone would've already thought of it even before the news broke Friday.


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## 155VERT83 (Aug 1, 2000)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (car_guy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *car_guy* »_Makes you wonder if being an orphan will raise or lower the resale value. I'm not too concerned as I hope to keep it a long time.
 Probably *lower*. Check out Passat W8 prices.


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## jazzspot (Nov 10, 2005)

Article from the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponlin....html


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## VDUBfanatic (Apr 17, 2000)

*Re: (jazzspot)*

I liked the car @ $80K, I am going to love it @ $40K.

Affordable German Engineering at its finest.


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## 2003Sport (Dec 21, 2003)

*Re: (VDUBfanatic)*

Badge snobs win over true quality engineering. You guys(and gals) who own one might find yourselves with a future desirable piece of history.


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## mkla2000 (Sep 25, 2004)

*European Delivery?*

Since Phaetons will still be available in Europe, what are the chances of getting new ones thru some sort of European delivery program?


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: European Delivery? (mkla2000)*

You probably could , but remember, they are twice the price over there based on posts I've read before. After conversions, it would be extremely expensive.
Just my .02 worth.


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## Gobuster (May 19, 2005)

*Re: European Delivery? (mkla2000)*

Very unlikely, european Phaetons are built to conform to the regulations over there, they don't meet NAR specs and thus can't be imported here (federal issue) without extensive and expensive modifications. 
Rob


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: European Delivery? (Gobuster)*

I might be expecting to get feelers for export from here to there.
don


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## bozoweb (Aug 4, 2005)

*Phaeton ended in US.*

Article in Boston Globe: Because of poor sales and desire to concentrate on Jetta and Passat (75% of US revenue) vw is ending the Phaeton this model year in the US. It will continue to be sold in Europe w/the diesel engine.
Bet those used prices plumet now.


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## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re: European Delivery? (GripperDon)*

Let us know what you find out. It would be interesting.
Although the dollar is now gaining strength vs the Euro recently.


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## phaeton (Nov 30, 2002)

As you can see by the username I'm a Phaeton addict having never seen one in person only in pics you can see I'm in love with this car.
The only way I have seen it is through the A8 or the Bentley and I can tell the Phaeton is something special.
My thoughts on the Phaeton are that it is a vehicle no one will ever come close to in detail, although there will be many imitators.
When the vehicle was concieved Mr Piech wanted to build the best large car in the world because he thought there was no competition in this class.
He did it and along the way the worlds toughest commentator on cars said "You know it pains me to admit it but if I were to buy a big 4 door saloon it wouldn't be the Jag, I would have that Phaeton" Jeremy Clarkson
It's not everyday Jeremy would buy a VW he even bashed the higher up Bentley Flying Spur and mentioned why pay an extra 40,000 pounds when you can have a Phaeton.
The problem with the Phaeton when it 1st came out was no engine options V6 & W12 now 3 years later it has 5 engine options and two body lengths & guess what they're now at full capacity after all the naysayers it's finally making it in Europe. 
Maybe with a 2nd Gen much like Audi with A8 it will break the NA region on second go.
So to a car I have never seen kudos to VW http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif and please don't ruin the next Phaeton by turning it in to a CLS copycat.


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## gizmopop (Feb 6, 2000)

*Re: (akuska)*


_Quote, originally posted by *akuska* »_
However, GM tried this in the 1980s and early 1990s, and it still hasn't fully recovered. Oldsmobile and Buick pretty much overlapped Chevy and Cadillac completely.
I like VW's moves to differentiate VW and Audi. Where VW/Audi still overlap (such as the A3 2.0T vs. GLI/GTI), I find it very difficult to differentiate the two and justify the Audi premium.
Putting the Passat on a different platform from the A4 is a good start. Leaving the Phaeton platform for Audi (in the form of the A8) is also a good move. Phaeton threatened A8 pricing, and its dismal sales and high development costs drained resources from VW when they should have been putting out the new Jetta and Passat a year sooner.
Finally, VW should keep Marrakesh to itself, while the Audi Q7 should supplant the Touareg, IMO.
If properly done, VW/Audi differentiation could encourage big city dealerships to sell both VWs and Audis (expanding the Audi network). Right now, doing so would just undermine Audi.


I think some people do not get the point that some of us will never buy an Audi when an equivalent VW is around. Its the constant (CL) attitude you get when ever a VW that seems to overlap an Audi is in question. 
A 3.6 Passat AWD loaded comes close to $40K(no it never goes over) but it is considered expensive. and inevitably the comment goes out that " for that price I'll go with an Audi". 
Now just examine this for a minute. You can go to Audis website and build a loaded up A4 2.0T Fronttrak and its price will be in the $38K+ range, add Quattro and you've crossed $40K barrier. Is this the Audi that those people intend to get instead of the Passat? or is it a lesser optioned version at say $35K? The same logic holds true for the Passat, if you don't need all the options you can get one for significantly less. The excuse" I'll get an Audi for that much" is just that. the Audi you can get for that price is a smaller car, it is a slower car and isn't built any better than the VW, it just has the Audi badge on it. 
But the greater agrument here is what is VAG doing buy offering cars from 2 makes in the same or similar categories? Are they competing with themselves? 
No, they are competing with BMW and MB and whoever else are in the same segments. Forget price and preconcieved ideals of who VW competes against, they are a German car company and their competitors first and foremost are their German rivals, those being BMW and MB. If you look at the physical dimensions of the various VW cars over their generations, they are nearly identical in size to those offered from BMW and MB in the same generation.
VW usually competes indirectly with value( ie for a similarly equipped and powered vehicle, you pay alot less at VW)
The Jetta is a 3 series/ C-class sized car.
The Passat is a 5 series/E-class sized car.

The Audi offerings are usually larger than their segment competition.
The A4 is slightly larger than the 3 series and C-class.
The A6 is slightly larger than the 5 series and E-class.
Audi competes directly with prestige (same type of dealer treatment and price for a similarly competitive vehicle) 
The Phaeton follows the same method. for the price of a V8 Phaeton you cannot get an equivalent 7 series or S class, you can't get either of those cars at all (lets forget about dealer negotiation as that can apply equally to each brand). The best you can do is get one of those brands midsized offerings..5 series and E-class.
To answer someones comments earlier, the Jetta is the 3 series segment competitor from VW, not its price competition because VW doesn't work that way. the GLI starts at $24K and with packages hits 28-29K. That car should perform in day to day tasks (ie if you take it to the track odds are that a 3 series driving at 10/10ths will get around faster/better than a Jetta GLI driven the same) just as well as the more expensive BMW 325.
I've rambled on...the Phaeton deserves a second shot in the U.S., dealers need to get behind it, it needs to be advertised/exposed to the public properly, and things obviously work for the model in other markets ( V6 TDI diesel models) need to be employed here...


----------



## PassaTT (May 24, 2003)

*Re: Phaeton ended in US. (bozoweb)*

Can you give us an idea how it impacted your W8 resale?


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## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re: (gizmopop)*

Nice post. 
You definitely get it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Sounds like you have been reading VW's marketing plan.
Thank you.


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## bigbugiv (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Phaeton ended in US. (PassaTT)*

Paldi is the resale expert. read the thread pertaining to this line item. i think the W-12 will be the biggest collectable since i believe there are less than 500 in the entire usa. you might want to buy another one for used parts in the future


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: European Delivery? (GripperDon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GripperDon* »_I might be expecting to get feelers for export from here to there.
don

Probably a waste of time. I checked with an exporter in Toronto, Canada today and found that a *BRAND NEW* Phaeton W12 from North America was not selling to Europe (don't know which country) for even $80K. So I know a used one would be hard to sell.
I know their are conversion costs and shipping, but I don't understand why they can't sell a used or new Phaeton for at least half price back overseas.
Their must be some serious underlying costs to ship it back, OR their is just no used car market for Phaetons in Europe, OR I'm getting erroneous impressions of what Phaetons are selling for over there. 
I would like for someone from Germany or Austria to give us some input/knowledge of the retail prices of new and used Phaetons in that part of the world. 
Would you find it a bargain to buy a W12 for $120K U.S. dollars???
Based on previous posts from over the past year, I hear they are new at $160K U. S. Dollars. I also learned today that cars do not depreciate nearly as bad in that area as they do here in USA. So, they are not as inclined to buy used when for just a few more dollars they can drive home a new one.
Based on my conversation with this international exporter, we can't get any more money for our cars in Europe than we can here.








What am I missing in this transaction?? 
Also, keep in mind, this is only one company I've talked to. I may be getting the run-around. Does anyone have a clue as to who would be a good source for handling foreign car exportation? I found 3 companies to talk to, and this one was the only one that I could understand the person on the other end of the phone








The only reason I'm investigating this is because at some point in time, myself or someone holding one of these beauties is going to eventually want to sell, and if so, why not sell to someone who can benefit from our low prices and allow us to not take such a beating in depreciation. Let's face it, in the NA market, we just lost 30-40% of our investment in one year! Some of us didn't lease the cars remember?
A foreign transaction could prevent us from losing so much and at the same time allow someone overseas to save money on a used car.
Any thoughts on this. Personally I plan to keep my car for at least 2 more years, but I have to consider what am I going to do at that time. 
Meanwhile, we are finally getting rain here and I'm driving the truck. Gotta keep the Phaeton clean for my trip to Florida this weekend











_Modified by dcowan699 at 6:26 PM 11-15-2005_


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton ended in US. (bozoweb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bozoweb* »_
Bet those used prices plumet now.

Now why do you think that??? I would think the opposite. The supply will dwindle and demand may go up a tad over time. If anything, I find the prices will creep north a bit after around mid 2006.


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## StevenSH (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: Phaeton ended in US. (bozoweb)*

04 Phaetons at the last Manheim auction with under 20K miles brought $38,000.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton ended in US. (StevenSH)*

I assume you are talking about a V8. If so, that's not a real big drop considering most people got those cars around $58K at retail. If $38K is wholesale, that is very typical drop and considering we are now a 2 year old car.... not bad.


_Modified by dcowan699 at 7:47 PM 11-15-2005_


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton ended in US. (dcowan699)*

Unfortunately for me, it's the W12s that I think are getting the beating. $52K for a $83K car!!! $30K drop in only a year (in my case as I bought mine at the end of the year) is just hideous.
Considering their are fewer of them, you would think they would be the ones holding value the most.


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## kal (Feb 16, 1999)

*Re: Phaeton ended in US. (dcowan699)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dcowan699* »_
Considering their are fewer of them, you would think they would be the ones holding value the most.









You are partly right, it is a case of supply and demand. However, just because there are fewer of them does not mean the value will hold or increase. It looks like there are even fewer people who want them. If you think your W12 is taking a beating right now with resale wait until your car is out of the factory warranty.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton ended in US. (kal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kal* »_
You are partly right, it is a case of supply and demand. However, just because there are fewer of them does not mean the value will hold or increase. It looks like there are even fewer people who want them. If you think your W12 is taking a beating right now with resale wait until your car is out of the factory warranty.

Won't have it by then


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## Gobuster (May 19, 2005)

*Re: European Delivery? (dcowan699)*

David's points are well put and are exactly why I think leasing is the only way to "own" so to speak, luxury cars. For example, I leased my Phaeton 5 months ago for 36 months. The lease end residual was 55% of sticker! So, the depreciation I'll pay over 3 years is 45%, or about what many "buyers" get whopped with after 12-18 months! Factor in the discount and cheap money, and the total cost of Leasing my car for 3 years is less than the actual depreciation after 12 months. Unless you do a lot of mileage or really need to get out of the car in less than 3 years, the lease is superior financially because it basically guarantees the resale value up front no matter what happens. Should the car wind up being worth more than the residual at lease end (IMHO not a chance of this happening with a Phaeton) you can always buy it out. A lessee does not have to worry what happens to his car's resale value, if below the the buyout at lease end, just return the car and walk away, if above, buy out and either keep or resell and pocket the difference. Once when leasing a Lexus, i actually was able to trade it in at lease end and get $3,400 back, not bad after 4 years! 
Someone posted that a Phaeton V8 with a sticker of $76K was available for $2,300 out of pocket and $597 per month for 36 months. This adds up to a total cost of $23,792 to "possess" a Phaeton for 3 years and 36k miles of driving. Even if you could buy the car for $56k, I doubt it will be worth $32k in 3 years so real depreciation alone would equal or exceed the total lease cost including the cost of money, Factor the interest you would pay on a $56k car loan (say $7,500) or, loss of potential earnings if you paid cash (say $6,000) and you can see the lease is a great deal. Plus, there is no uncertainty about that resale value! The only caveats are: if you drive many miles the $0.25 overmileage fee will eat some of the savings, and, if you beat up your car and don't take care of it, you could be hit with an excess wear and tear fee (never happened to me in 20 years of leasing over 11 cars).
Another often overlooked aspect of leasing is that you have better insurance protection. Most leases come with what is called GAP insurance, basically saying that if the car is totalled, the leasing company will accept the insurance company payout as termination of the lease and you just walk away! Now if you own,and say 12 months after purchase the car is totaled, your insurance is only going to pay "market value" to replace the car. If you borrowed $56k you most likely still owe about $50k after a year, and the market is only 45k, you just got nailed for $5k!
The next few months are going to present a wonderful opportunity to get into a Phaeton for the cost of a Passat! If you want one, don't hesitate!
Rob


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## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re: European Delivery? (Gobuster)*

Great explanation.
That is why I always lease expensive cars.
I'm not rich enough to tie up capital in a depreciating asset.
Once I'm ready to retire and my income is fixed I'll be ready to pay cash for my retirement car. Don't want the monthly payment. Until then leasing is the only way to go for me.


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## Gobuster (May 19, 2005)

*Re: European Delivery? (rmg2)*

Rick,
Most leasing companies offer a single payment lease, where you pay the full lease fee in one payment up front, generally somewhat lower than the sum of monthly payments. So you can still enjoy some of the benefits of leasing without monthly payments. Even if you plan to keep the car for years, it's nice to have a predetermined "out" after 3 or 4 just in case!
Rob


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## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re: European Delivery? (Gobuster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Gobuster* »_Rick,
Most leasing companies offer a single payment lease, where you pay the full lease fee in one payment up front, generally somewhat lower than the sum of monthly payments. So you can still enjoy some of the benefits of leasing without monthly payments. Even if you plan to keep the car for years, it's nice to have a predetermined "out" after 3 or 4 just in case!
Rob

Yes, I am aware of that feature.
However depending on when I retire I think I'll prefer to know that I don't have to buy another car if I do not need to. Of course I could always purchase the car out right at the end of the lease with depreciated dollars, which might not be a bad way to go depending on inflation at the time. 
We'll have to wait and see what the economy is like when I retire.
Thank you,
Rick


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## akuska (Sep 1, 2005)

*Re: (rmg2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rmg2* »_Nice post. 
You definitely get it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Sounds like you have been reading VW's marketing plan.
Thank you.

Sometimes the right message isn't the one you want to hear. It's true that the Phaeton was a very good car, and there are some people who won't by an Audi if there is an equivalent VW. However, that doesn't mean that Phaeton was the right car for the US market, or that VW should junk Audi. Quite the contrary.
If VW can get almost as many buyers into a more expensive Audi than a cheaper VW, that's a good thing for the company. Someone might balk at paying $40k for a loaded Passat, but may not balk at paying $43 for a similarly loaded A4 with the Audi interior and the Audi service. Maybe it's the 4 rings, maybe it's the dealer image, maybe it's something else. Nevertheless, Audi has an appeal that VW doesn't. There's a reason Honda created the Acura brand and Toyota created the Lexus. In Japan these brands don't exist, because people there accept a Honda luxury car. In the US, people don't (Hondas are family cars). Honda realizes this. VW should as well. Is it rational? Not entirely. However, that's the market.
By blurring the lines between the luxury brand and the mass-market brand, companies threaten both brands. GM did this by selling re-badged Chevys as Cadillacs (Remember the Cimmaron? Even with a V8 it couldn't shake the "Chevy" image). VW was doing the reverse with the Phaeton. Without proper differentiation, the luxury car seems too downmarket, while the mass-market brand all of a sudden appears less within reach. Someone looking for a $19k Jetta who walks past a $40k Passat or a $70k Phaeton might conclude that they are out of place a nd won't get service since they want to spend "only" $19k. 
Likewise, people in the market for a $70k car don't naturally go to VW dealers. They probably wouldn't go to a Hyundai dealer, either. That's not to say that VW and Hyundai aren't capable of building good $70k cars. It just means that they shouldn't expect people to just accept it up front.
I think that Audi should function as the luxury brand, while VW should function as the mass market brand.


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## stjarna (Aug 18, 2005)

*Re: European Delivery? (Gobuster)*

I think all this fancy financial analyses about cars is silly. As has been stated, cars are depreciating assets (I call them 'wasting assets'). You can spin the lease vs. buy arguments all you want to justify your decision one way or the other, but there is only one true fact:
The only way to come out ahead financially in the car game is to buy and own as few cars in your lifetime as possible.
In other words, you should buy one high quality car every 10 to 15 years and drive it into the ground. Then, repeat the process. If you live to be 80 years old, you've only bought 4 to 6 cars ('wasting assets') in your lifetime. Since cars are a complete waste compared to more productive things you could do with your hard-earned money to build wealth and achieve financial freedom (invest it, for example), such an approach would put you ahead financially over the long term compared to buying or leasing a new car every three or four years.
The worst thing you can do financially is lease the experience of driving a car over and over again. If you simply keep rolling over from lease to lease until you're 80, you've thrown money out the window all of your life. It's no different than renting an apartment all of your life. You might live a nice lifestyle, but you'd own nothing by the time you're 80. You'd have relatively little wealth to live off of and you'd have to keep working to pay your bills.
In contrast, if you buy each car, financing it over 4 years and then driving it for 10 years, you'd have 6 years of monthly car payments that you could divert to investments instead. After the four year finance period, six years of monthly car payments of $750 due at the first of each month invested at 11.7% (long-term return of the S&P 500) would yield you $78,522.44. Comparatively, at the end of 10 years of leasing over and over again, you'd have $0.00 for that same $750 monthly car payment.
Financially speaking, $78,500 beats $0.00 every time. The key is to drive the same car as long as possible with no car payments whatsoever and use the money you save to invest in 'attractive assets' -- assets that increase in value over time.
_Note: I realize that maintenance costs in later years would be higher under the "buy and drive" approach than would be with leasing continuously, but you get the general idea..._
I really don't care what the residual value of a Phaeton is or what the market rate for a used Phaeton will be in two years. I bought for the quality that the Phaeton represents and its ability to keep going for a long time with proper care and feeding. I'm in this baby for the long haul. I hope to keep it for at least 10 years and make some good investments over that same timeframe.



_Modified by loganflatt at 12:47 AM 11-16-2005_


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## versatec95 (Nov 16, 2004)

*Mis-statement from today's Detroit News?..*

"The goal was to sell 10,000 Phaetons a year in the United States by 2004."
_10K units by 2004YE? Is this accurate? The vehicle was launched in 2003 as a MY2004._
VW's Phaeton will fade out
*Failure to meet goals leads Europe's biggest carmaker to end the luxury sedan's sales in America in 2006.*
By Chad Thomas/Bloomberg News 
[email protected]
Volkswagen AG, Europe's biggest carmaker, will stop selling the $66,700 Phaeton sedan in the United States next year after failing to compete with luxury models from BMW and DaimlerChrysler AG's Mercedes-Benz. 
Volkswagen will pull the Phaeton out of the world's largest market, where it never met sales targets, by September 2006, said Hans-Gerd Bode, a spokesman at the Wolfsburg, Germany-based automaker. The model's 10-month U.S. sales totaled 686 cars. The goal was to sell 10,000 Phaetons a year in the United States by 2004. 
"They are simply not willing to spend additional money on this car in the U.S.," said Patrick Juchemich, an analyst with Sal Oppenheim in Frankfurt. "It would have required a huge marketing offensive." 
CEO Bernd Pischetsrieder is trying to return Volkswagen to profit in the United States amid sales that declined 11 percent in the first 10 months of 2005 even after the introduction of new Jetta and Passat cars. 
Former CEO Ferdinand Piech, now the chairman of Volkswagen's supervisory board, created the Phaeton as part of his effort to take the Volkswagen brand into the luxury market. 
The carmaker offers an 8-cylinder Phaeton for $66,700 and a 12-cylinder model for $96,600, according to the company's U.S. Web site. That compares with Mercedes-Benz's competing S-Class, which starts at $65,675 in the United States, Bayerische Motoren Werke AG's 7-Series at $71,800 and Volkswagen's Audi division's A8 at $68,850, according to the carmakers' Web sites. 
"At that price, the Volkswagen Phaeton, well built as it is, can only be described as an inferior product," said Stephen Pope, head an analyst with Cantor Fitzgerald in London. "The U.S. is the most dynamic consumer market in the world, and if it won't work there, it won't work anywhere. They should just stop it completely." 
Shares of Volkswagen fell 38 cents, or 0.8 percent, to 45.25 euros. The stock is up 36 percent this year, valuing the carmaker at 18 billion euros ($21 billion). 
Final assembly of the Phaeton, named after the son of the mythological Greek god Helios, is done at a Dresden, Germany, factory built of glass that has become a tourist attraction in the city. 
http://www.detnews.com/2005/au...0.htm


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## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re: (akuska)*


_Quote, originally posted by *akuska* »_ I think that Audi should function as the luxury brand, while VW should function as the mass market brand. 

That is a point of view but that is not the way VW describe themselves. the VW brand was to compete with Mercedes and Audi was to compete with BMW. That has been their marketing strategy.
As for VW being a mass market brand, I guess that would be relative since if you mean mass market among the German brands.
Certainly the Japanese brands are more mass market than VW will ever be here in the USA.
People tend to have preconceived ideas about people and companies. I would suggest that it is possible for VW to compete as a luxury brand. It will just take some time. It has taken BMW over 20 years to develop their reputation as the "Ultimate Driving Machine". Having worked for BMW I can assure that not all their cars were the "Ultimate Driving Machine". It has taken Mercedes over 40 years to be seen as a leader in luxury and technology instead of a Truck and Taxi company.
I guess we'll never know if the Phaeton would have been a success since VW did not put much marketing behind the car and did not give it 10-years to catch on in the USA like Audi did with the A8.
In an age of instant opinion without reflection and the need for immediate perceived success it is very difficult to launch something new much less re-invent yourself.
It seems to me that since the Phaeton appears to be taking market share everywhere but here in the USA that the issue is not whether VW should have created a luxury car but whether Americans are smart enough to understand a great value when they see it. And, whether VW has the backbone to stay the course on what they created. Of course without the required in your face marketing here in the USA it was hard for a number of people to see the Phaeton, which leads us down another path of which I will not travel.


----------



## Arroyo (Dec 7, 1999)

*Phaeton as a Collector Car*

*FATE OF THE PHAETON *
November 15, 2005 
Volkswagen AG announced that it will pull sales of its premium luxury sedan, the Phaeton, by September 2006. The car was the brainchild of former VW CEO (and now the Chairman of VW;s supervisory board) Ferdinand Piech. The Phaeton was the centerpiece of a vision to take the Volkswagen brand further upscale. 
From the very beginning, skeptics said it would never work. The image of Volkswagen as the "people's car" was said to be too ingrained in the minds of the car-buying community. Ultimately, the skeptics proved to be correct. Volkswagen never found enough luxury sedan customers who didn't care about the badge it carried.
It's unfortunate, since the Phaeton is a remarkable piece of work. The quality of its components and the execution of its interior are second to none. The premium sound system was judged to be the best in the industry last year. Even the trunk hinges look like a work of art. The car itself feels as solid as a bank vault. In the end, all this was not enough to succeed in the luxury car market.
The upside to this turn of events is that you can now buy a Phaeton for a steeply discounted price. If you can find a used one (there weren't that many sold in the USA), the prices are even better. As fate would have it, the slow-selling Phaeton has become one of the all-time best buys in its class. Let's put it another way: For the prices they are now selling this car, you cannot buy a better luxury sedan. 
Eventually, the Phaeton will be regarded as a collector car. Owners will parade it at classic car shows, and show goers will be amazed at what the makers of the "people's car" once made. Mark my word: It will happen. Unfortunately for Volkswagen, it won't be soon enough. 
- LACB










_Modified by Arroyo at 3:44 AM 11-16-2005_


----------



## anothercar (Dec 20, 2002)

*Re: Phaeton as Collector Car (Arroyo)*

He didnt mention the HVAC, how can you write up the Phaeton, extolling a few of its many virtues without mentioning the HVAC?


----------



## hmorse (Nov 14, 2004)

*2006 Last Year??*

I don't want to start a panic but...... assuming this is true, no more of these wonderful vehicles after 2006, is it best to dispose of the vehicle now or wait? I have 2004 to which I have added xm radio, bluetooth phone and gorgeous wheels. My vehicle only has 20,000 miles at this time. I would like to know the group's concensus here. I was going to sell it in 2006 anyway..... This is an unexpected kick in the pants because VW promised manufacture through at least 2007. 
VW screwed up one of the best cars on the road by improper marketing in the US. They didn't provide a luxury label, kept it as a "vw". No advertising. Kind of reminds me what the French did when they brought the Citroen over. They were too inflexible to market to Americans properly and folded operations here. VW should obviously know better, much better!


----------



## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: 2006 Last Year?? (hmorse)*

I'll give you $30k for it.








(Just kidding, but hey, it was worth a try!







)


----------



## bobm (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton as Collector Car (anothercar)*

I finally figured out the real reason VW is pulling the Phaeton. It's the only car in their stable that's technically reliable! God forbid that they change their reputation.


----------



## w12phatreg10v (May 6, 2005)

*Re: 2006 Last Year?? (hmorse)*

I got my letter from VW via Fedex this morning about not continuing to market the vehicle in the US after 2006.
What a sad letter. I personally think this is truely the finbest car I have ever owned. I have bought 3 other VW's since buying the car because I was so impressed.
It is so sad people are brand snobs because this car is far greater than the others.


----------



## anothercar (Dec 20, 2002)

*Re: Phaeton as Collector Car (bobm)*

Youre a funny man!


----------



## gizmopop (Feb 6, 2000)

*Re: (rmg2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rmg2* »_
People tend to have preconceived ideas about people and companies. I would suggest that it is possible for VW to compete as a luxury brand. It will just take some time. It has taken BMW over 20 years to develop their reputation as the "Ultimate Driving Machine". Having worked for BMW I can assure that not all their cars were the "Ultimate Driving Machine". It has taken Mercedes over 40 years to be seen as a leader in luxury and technology instead of a Truck and Taxi company.
I guess we'll never know if the Phaeton would have been a success since VW did not put much marketing behind the car and did not give it 10-years to catch on in the USA like Audi did with the A8.
In an age of instant opinion without reflection and the need for immediate perceived success it is very difficult to launch something new much less re-invent yourself.
It seems to me that since the Phaeton appears to be taking market share everywhere but here in the USA that the issue is not whether VW should have created a luxury car but whether Americans are smart enough to understand a great value when they see it. And, whether VW has the backbone to stay the course on what they created. Of course without the required in your face marketing here in the USA it was hard for a number of people to see the Phaeton, which leads us down another path of which I will not travel.









These are points that people seem to forget, those brands didn't do things overnight, even the relative newcomers like Infiniti and Lexus have been at it for over a decade now. I say give VW time, I'm sure that the Phaeton will acquit itself beyond North America. 
Everyone expects things to happen overnight and it just doesn't work that way. 
VWoAs blame in this is improper exposure of the Phaeton. I've said it countless times, you have get this car out in the public eye. My suggestion was a drive event where you can see VWs entire lineup, how they fit together, how technology from the Phaeton and Touareg filter down in the rest of the lineup...make it nationwide, if you're throwing marketing $$ at football games and other sporting events (where i've seen VWs sponsorship) make the effort to have these drive events going on simultaneously or earlier the same day. Get potential customers to go and see the cars in situations they wouldn't typically be looking for it...as stated here and in many other threads, luxury buyers aren't inclined to go to VWs dealer to see the Phaeton unless they found out about it secondhand.
I never thought VW was trying to re-invent themselves, they were just filling in the empty spots in their lineup.


----------



## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: European Delivery? (loganflatt)*

*Right On Loganflatt!*

Don


----------



## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Phaeton as Collector Car (bobm)*

Bobm
You are not only funny but at least 1/2 right.
Don


----------



## reneestreg (May 25, 2005)

*Re: European Delivery? (loganflatt)*

posted by...loganflatt
The only way to come out ahead financially in the car game is to buy and own as few cars in your lifetime as possible.
...................................................................................................
Where's the fun in that?
I agree with much of what you say, cars are a terrible waste of money. I just wish I could be happy with a Ford Tempo AWD, but I can't.
I waste a ludicrous amount of money on cars. I wish I didn't but experiencing many different vehicles is what keeps me happy.
Here is a list of vehicle I have owned this year.
Acura NSX, Benz S500, Ford Lightning pickup, Nissan Murano, BMW X-5 4.4, VW Touareg V-8, Audi A-6 4.2, Nissan Titan and a Sebring Convertible. Soon a W12 Phaeton.
50 years hopefully more, it won't matter how much money I have in the bank. Hopefully the last check I write bounces.


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## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re: European Delivery? (loganflatt)*

Hi LFLATT,
Nice post and you are correct in terms of buying fewer depreciating assets in order to build wealth.
However, I'm in a business where I need a car and I do drive them into the ground (relatively speaking). For me a car is a necessary expense and I treat them as such; the same as utilities, food, etc.
Secondly, your analysis does not take into account the tax breaks I'm allowed nor does it take into account currency inflation. And what about loss of the use of your capital up front? A dollar today is not what it was worth 20 years ago. However, if productivity goes up I can purchase a better equipped and built car in the future for the same dollar amount but those dollars are deflated, in essence for less cost.
The problem with your apartment analysis is that if I were renting I could not write off my rent on my taxes but I can write off a percentage of my home interest and taxes. Also, my home ownership continues to grow albeit in inflated dollars where my car ownership continues to be worth less the longer I own it (unless its a Ferrari or something like it).
My CPA and tax attorney do a great job working thru the tax code for me. Therefore, my cost to drive a Phaeton does require me to pay up front but at the end of the year I realize most of my money back.
That is a trade off I'm willing to live with.








Remember, there is a reason why leasing is around and its not because it does not make sense. If leasing fits your needs and psychology then lease. If your of the mind to own it all then own it all.
The case you presented reminds me more of the debate in life insurance where some say it is better to purchase Term Insurance rather than Whole Life Insurance and invest the difference you saved buying the Term Insurance into a a long term high yield investment.
I'm not even going there!!











_Modified by rmg2 at 6:35 PM 11-16-2005_


----------



## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: European Delivery? (reneestreg)*


_Quote, originally posted by *reneestreg* »_I wish I didn't but experiencing many different vehicles is what keeps me happy.

I couldn't possibly agree with you more! Cars are my only _real_ vice.

_Quote, originally posted by *reneestreg* »_Hopefully the last check I write bounces.
 
Someone's been watching _Ocean's Twelve_


----------



## bobm (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton as Collector Car (GripperDon)*

Can we see a sequel coming?


----------



## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: European Delivery? (rmg2)*

Since I am retired I buy, no tax breaks. The one value of a lease in my opinion is in the case of the Phaeton. When the resale poos out then you can buy it cheaper than if you bought it before the announcement, or just let it go by bye.
For me I still buy less hassle and I have lots better things to do with my tie that argue with some guy that I have unusual wear and tear or having to watch my miles.
To each his own. Now when it comes to boats...........


----------



## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re: European Delivery? (GripperDon)*

Hi Don,
That is exactly what I said about retirement.

_Quote, originally posted by *rmg2* »_However depending on when I retire I think I'll prefer to know that I don't have to buy another car if I do not need to. 

We're on the same page.
The uncertainity of the Phaeton was another plus for me to lease it.
Rick


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## JML (Jun 19, 2000)

*The true reason*

In Braunschweiger Zeitung, the daily of the Braunschweig/Wolfsburg area, there was the following interview with Wolfgang Bernhard about the discontinuation of the Phaeton in the U.S. I translated it for the English folks. Unfortunately they seemed to have taken it off the website by now.

_Quote, originally posted by *Braunschweiger Zeitung* »_
*Bernhard committed to luxury segment *

Wolfsburg (dpa) – The head of the VW-brand, Wolfgang Bernhard, continues to stand by Volkswagen’s controversial luxury segment engagement. VW will not abandon the Phaeton as a “bridgehead in the luxury class”, Bernhard commented to [German news agency] dpa. “The Phaeton will have a successor in due time.” Volkswagen announced on Monday that it will stop offering the Phaeton in the North American market in the summer of 2006. Sales figures were significantly lower than expected. Bernhard said that Volkswagen had not made the decision to end North American Phaeton sales “on short notice.” “In the North American market, the VW brand must return to its former vigor as fast as possible.” That applies to volume and margin. To achieve this goal, VW will now concentrate on the marketing of its two main products for the U.S. market, Jetta and Passat. “Beyond that, we are developing new models at great pace which aim at the preferences of the North American customers.”
Within the [Volkswagen] Group, the appropriations for capital expenditures are limited, Bernhard said. VW must reduce the losses in North America “as fast as possible.” *The new emissions regulations would have tied up a significant amount of capital to continue the sale of the Phaeton in the U.S. beyond 2006. “ We would have had to completely reengineer the U.S. engine lineup for the vehicle. Given the challenging sales situation in the U.S. and the Dollar exchange rate, such an expenditure was not justifiable.”*
Total U.S. sales of the VW brand declined by 17 percent to 180,000 units for the period January to October 2005. Phaeton sales dropped to only 686 units for the first ten months [of 2005] – a minus of 50 percent. VW anticipates a loss of close to a billion dollars for the U.S. business in FY 2005.
Bernhard elaborated that the situation for the Phaeton is “completely different” in Western Europe. Here, the sales of the car have continuously improved over the last months. In the first eight months of 2005, Phaeton sales jumped by 50 percent. In Germany, segmental market share [of the Phaeton] reached 18 percent in the same period. Considering the strong competition in the luxury segment, this is a “very good development.” The Phaeton was introduced in 2002. The VW luxury segment also includes Bentley and Bugatti.


----------



## jmdpjd1 (Aug 18, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton as Collector Car (bobm)*

Bobm,
Shouldn't that say the Loved Bug?


----------



## Jack Orr (Mar 15, 2000)

*Re: The true reason (JML)*

I think an item everyone has overlooked is the cost of compliance with 2007 government regs. This, plus exchange rate problems have driven the decision to retire the Phaeton.
Still, VW is the best way for an American buyer to go who wants 'German engineering' at reasonable cost, ie cheaper than BMW and M-B models.
I intend to reply to the letter from Adrian Hallmark in a nice way.


----------



## bobm (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton as Collector Car (jmdpjd1)*

I'll take that challange:


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## culverwood (May 20, 2005)

*Re: European Delivery? (dcowan699)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dcowan699* »_
I checked with an exporter in Toronto, Canada today and found that a *BRAND NEW* Phaeton W12 from North America was not selling to Europe (don't know which country) for even $80K. So I know a used one would be hard to sell.
I know their are conversion costs and shipping, but I don't understand why they can't sell a used or new Phaeton for at least half price back overseas.
Their must be some serious underlying costs to ship it back, OR their is just no used car market for Phaetons in Europe, OR I'm getting erroneous impressions of what Phaetons are selling for over there. 
I would like for someone from Germany or Austria to give us some input/knowledge of the retail prices of new and used Phaetons in that part of the world. 
Would you find it a bargain to buy a W12 for $120K U.S. dollars???
_Modified by dcowan699 at 6:26 PM 11-15-2005_

There is not really a much of a second-hand market in Europe (or the UK at least) for large luxury cars with huge engines and even less for Phaetons. Fuel costs a fortune and the smaller engined versions or diesel ones sell for a much greater proportion of their initial value. If money is no object that type of buyer will prefer a new car anyway and probably not a VW. 
As has been mentioned a few times 90-95% of Phaetons sold are V6TDI or V6 and the top of the range models have only ever sold in minute numbers here. Second hand W12s would be about $60k if you could find one, depending on age but not much more when you can buy a new V6TDI for the same price and have much lower running costs. 
As well as that North American Phaetons are LWB and on our smaller more crowded roads the SWB version is already much bigger than nearly every other car.
William


----------



## fuse (May 30, 2005)

*Re: The true reason (JML)*

The business about the 2007 regs seems like BS to me-doesn't VW have to deal with the 4.2 V8 in the audis that use them too? Seems like the work to get the powerplant up to 2007 spec is going to be done redardless. Just sort of a "it's not really our fault..." thing.
My Phaeton is a great car regardless-Driving home from Baltimore last night on slick roads with the surround sound on, in the left lane I thought this has to be the best "failure" ever


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## MrGTI (Feb 14, 2000)

It was a good car. The brand just wasn't ready for it yet. Hopefully in a few years when VW gets the model line up working, maybe they'll be able to bring it back. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re: The true reason (fuse)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuse* »_The business about the 2007 regs seems like BS to me-doesn't VW have to deal with the 4.2 V8 in the audis that use them too? Seems like the work to get the powerplant up to 2007 spec is going to be done redardless. Just sort of a "it's not really our fault..." thing.
My Phaeton is a great car regardless-Driving home from Baltimore last night on slick roads with the surround sound on, in the left lane I thought this has to be the best "failure" ever 

Actually, the 4.2 in the A8 is different than the one in the Phaeton.


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## 1.8turboB5 (May 1, 2002)

*Re: (gizmopop)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gizmopop* »_
I've rambled on...the Phaeton deserves a second shot in the U.S., dealers need to get behind it, it needs to be advertised/exposed to the public properly, and things obviously work for the model in other markets ( V6 TDI diesel models) need to be employed here...


exactemundo. the dealers themselves saw the Phaeton as a cruel joke.. and the fact of the matter is gentlemen.. and the naysayers maynot believe this.. but many many phaeton autherized dealers stopped ordering Phaetons around when the New Jetta came out. Phaeton sales are down because of not only lack of inventory but because of lack of even wanting Phaeton inventory. i could have sold about 4 Phaetons in the last four months alone. But we didnt have them, and from the attitude i gathered we didnt want them.
In short ......*THE Phaeton did not fail. The VW Dealers Failed the Phaeton. *


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## JML (Jun 19, 2000)

*Re: The true reason (fuse)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuse* »_The business about the 2007 regs seems like BS to me-doesn't VW have to deal with the 4.2 V8 in the audis that use them too? Seems like the work to get the powerplant up to 2007 spec is going to be done redardless. Just sort of a "it's not really our fault..." thing.
My Phaeton is a great car regardless-Driving home from Baltimore last night on slick roads with the surround sound on, in the left lane I thought this has to be the best "failure" ever 

If I remember right, if one changes a major component of a car (and the engine definitely accounts for that), the entire certification for sale in the U.S. has to be redone (save the crash tests). This is supposedly one of the reasons why you find only limited engine options on import cars. If you only estimate to sell 1,000 cars/year and you have to spends a couple of thousands of dollars on (re-) certification it becomes unviable. I once read VW makes EUR 200 profit on a Golf. For argument's sake let's pretend they'd net $500 on a Phaeton (they'd make more on the individual car, but factor in cost of warranty spread of number of cars sold). If certification costs, say, $50,000 and they sell 1,00 cars per year, Phaeton will begin to be profitable in year 11 - if they wouldn't ned to make a change requiring recertification.
That being said, where VW failed was in Phaeton marketing and introduction. They failed in Europe by not offering a V8 for the first two model years (!) in a market segment where approx. 60-70% of cars bought have an eight-banger. By the time VW rectified this issue (they allegedly planned the Phaeton as a W8, but that died when the guzzling W8 did and it took time to adjust the Audi V8 to the Phaeton), Phaeton was already considered as this century's Edsel. And the vibes just transferred accross the 'pond when it was introduced here. And then there were the dealers..... In Germany, there are only a selected (and very thoroughly reviewed) number of dealers who _are offered to_ sell Phaeton. All of these have to fulfil ridiculous quality requirements (have dedicated Phaeton sales booths, pick-up/drop-off service with Phaeton loaners offered to customers, special Phaeton 24h hotline etc.) which I understand U.S. dealers didn't have to fulfil. In Germany, Phaeton customers are treated better than any other customers this side of Bentley and Rolls-Royce.


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

*Re: The true reason (rmg2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rmg2* »_Actually, the 4.2 in the A8 is different than the one in the Phaeton.









Other than minor modifications, the 4.2 V8 is used in the A8, the Allroad and the Touareg. I don't buy the 2007 regulation story at all. Poor sales, a non supportive dealer network, a sluggish economy and the loss of NA corporate support killed the Phaeton. 
I'm with fuse on this one, it's a very poor excuse. 
~PC


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## gizmopop (Feb 6, 2000)

*Re: The true reason (PhaetonChix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhaetonChix* »_
Other than minor modifications, the 4.2 V8 is used in the A8, the Allroad and the Touareg. I don't buy the 2007 regulation story at all. Poor sales, a non supportive dealer network, a sluggish economy and the loss of NA corporate support killed the Phaeton. 
I'm with fuse on this one, it's a very poor excuse. 
~PC

Poor excuse indeed...I think the only difference is the one of the engines runs dry sump, the other wet...


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## Jack Orr (Mar 15, 2000)

*Re: The true reason (gizmopop)*

The dry/wet sump difference is the W12 engine only. But, the '06 W12 in the Phaeton is supposed to be wet sump.


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## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re: The true reason (PhaetonChix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhaetonChix* »_
Other than minor modifications, the 4.2 V8 is used in the A8, the Allroad and the Touareg. I don't buy the 2007 regulation story at all. Poor sales, a non supportive dealer network, a sluggish economy and the loss of NA corporate support killed the Phaeton. 
I'm with fuse on this one, it's a very poor excuse. 
~PC

Hi PC,
Sorry to differ but . . 
The V8 in the Phaeton is the old style 4.2 block with the timing belt in the front.
The D3 A8's use the new block design with a timing chain (no belt) in the rear of the engine.
Very little is interchangeable between the two 4.2's.











_Modified by rmg2 at 9:22 PM 11-17-2005_


----------



## PassaTT (May 24, 2003)

*Re: The true reason (rmg2)*

I can confirm this as my timing belt was changed yesterday.


----------



## trekguy (Aug 16, 2004)

*Re: The true reason (PassaTT)*

Why was your timing belt changed so soon? I thought they should last at least 90,000 miles?
Thanks
Tony


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## ryangambrill (Aug 1, 2005)

*Re: The true reason (PhaetonChix)*

I hope that they reinvent the Phaeton in the future, and bring it back to the US market. I know that VW/Audi can do this. Just look at the difference between the current A8, and the previous model.


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## PassaTT (May 24, 2003)

*Re: The true reason (trekguy)*

Working on a very weird intermittant problem. See my post titled Waiting for a Flatbed


----------



## fuse (May 30, 2005)

*Re: The true reason (rmg2)*

My understanding is the A6 uses the 4.2 with the timing belt (bet it has something to do with how hard it is to change). Still, I bet the emission issues have little to do with how the valvetrain is driven from the crankshaft.
Any solution audi uses to put a 4.2 into an A4, A6 or A8 could be used for the phaeton. They just aren't doing it-


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## Tail Spin (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: The true reason (fuse)*

So is the Phaeton 8cyl inferior to the Audi 8cyl or simply different for design/installation purposes?
Thanks.


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: The true reason (Tail Spin)*

The location of the device (belt, chain) was moved to the rear of the engine to enable Audi to fit the engine into the S4. Audi wanted to do away with the service interval as the rear of the engine is buried under the cowl and would most likely have required removal of the engine in order to change the belt. 
Packaging restrictions of that platform would not allow them to have the mechanicals up front. (Gee...wonder why they came up with the W8???







(It was those exact packaging restrictions on the B5 platform that formed the rationale behind its development -- along as being a test mule for the W engine concept before the W12 was developed for the Phaeton.)
Timing belts are preferable from a NVH perspective, chains from a maintenance perspective. I wouldn't say one is more or less superior to the other.


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## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re: The true reason (Tail Spin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tail Spin* »_So is the Phaeton 8cyl inferior to the Audi 8cyl or simply different for design/installation purposes?
Thanks. 

Its not that the the Phaeton V8 is inferior just the older design.
The reason it was probably used in the Phaeton over the newer 4.2 design is because the Phaeton was designed and released before the new D3 A8 platform and the newer 4.2 engines were ready. Therefore, the older 4.2 was already developed and ready for certification.
If I recall correctly, the newer 4.2 was developed to meet all emission requirements thru 2010.
I had hoped that for 2007 VW would have moved to the newer design 4.2 in the re-refreshed Phaeton and perhaps that is what they were planning to do. Thus, as the letter to the Phaeton owners stated,* ". . . and the incremental cost of 2007 model year regulatory compliance simply put the Phaeton outside the scope of the Brand in North America for now."*
As Chris also mentioned the newer design also helped Audi put the 4.2 into the new S4 and RS 4 models.
I also believe that the newer A6 design uses the newer 4.2 engine as will the re-designed Allroad.



_Modified by rmg2 at 4:40 PM 11-18-2005_


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*)*

After reading my letter from VW, it does seem worded as if this is a temporary discontinuation of the Phaeton (or some type of high end car). Just wait and see I guess.


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## Tail Spin (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: ) (dcowan699)*

Thanks guys, very informative.
Also, the way I see it...de-badge, new grill (which you guys will figure out in very short order I;m sure), new wheels and we are sty'ln in an unbelievably unique ride that no-one will figure out at a fraction of the cost that the Maybach, Ferrari, Bentley and RR guys have to spend a fortune to accomplish.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: ) (Tail Spin)*

I like that grill that Michael posted the other night except I think I'd rather have it in chrome. Just last night I bought a "pimpin" type magazine looking over new wheels. Really hard to decide on anything but you're right.... a few special touches here and there and this thing is bad to the bone.








The main problem for W12 owners is making sure the wheels can accept the extra weight.
I'm in Florida at this time and the stares were enormous on the drive down. 
Damn, if VW had just advertised, I know this car would've been a big hit with just a little more time. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Tail Spin (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: ) (dcowan699)*

How long does Manufacturer have to produce spare parts for?
That is my only concern.


----------



## sirAQUAMAN64 (Oct 25, 2004)

*Re: (1.8turboB5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8turboB5* »_
In short ......*THE Phaeton did not fail. The VW Dealers Failed the Phaeton. *









Yeap.








My local dealer said that when someone drove one, they bought it. But, they normally had to order it and the lead time was a least 4 months. In North America people don't want to wait that long, and even a factory build shouldn't take that long.
VWoA intentionally limited imports of them, and the dealers allowed it to happen.


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## gizmopop (Feb 6, 2000)

*Re: (sirAQUAMAN64)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sirAQUAMAN64* »_
Yeap.








My local dealer said that when someone drove one, they bought it. But, they normally had to order it and the lead time was a least 4 months. In North America people don't want to wait that long, and even a factory build shouldn't take that long.
VWoA intentionally limited imports of them, and the dealers allowed it to happen.

See this I don't get either, ask the people in Europe about ordering their cars, most want a tailor made car and are willing to wait months for them. 
Thats the whole thing with the Phaeton as well, these are supposed to be built to order...meaning the dealers selling them should have one or two around for customers to sample and for owners to use when their cars are being serviced, and the rest should be ordered when a customer purchases one. there shouldn't be a cost of importing fee to deal with because thats taken care of when someone buys the car....You aren't supposed to market and sell it like a volume car because the market for it hasn't built up speed yet...


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: European Delivery? (dcowan699)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dcowan699* »_ I checked with an exporter in Toronto, Canada today and found that a *BRAND NEW* Phaeton W12 from North America was not selling to Europe (don't know which country) for even $80K.

Hi David:
That's probably because the person who imports the car would have to spend tens of thousands of dollars to make the car compliant with European safety specifications. Some of the things that would need to be changed would be:
*1)* Both rear tail-lamps - to support operation of a rear fog-light.
*2)* Both front head-lamps - to comply with the more advanced EC spec for beam pattern.
*3)* 5 new tires - all season tires are not acceptable in many EC countries.
*4)* Addition of minor items (EC compliant first aid kit, triangle, etc.)
*5)*Both front brakes (calipers, rotors, etc.)
*6)* Kessey (keyless access) changed to EC frequency specification.
Once all that was done, you would have a W12 Phaeton that is limited to only 210 km/h, and does not have much of the functionality that a European Phaeton has - for example, no TMC (traffic advisory), no phone, AM radio frequency spacing is off, etc.
Why go to all that trouble when you can buy a new one that already meets European specifications for $140K?
Michael


----------



## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: European Delivery? (PanEuropean)*

Yes I agree Michael. Thanks for the detailed explaination. I just was thinking of this as an eventual backup process for me or anyone else. It does looks at though it is just not realistically possible. 
I plan to just keep my car and enjoy it.


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: European Delivery? (dcowan699)*

David, remember I always wanted a Black W12 with a black interior. Still do.


----------



## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: The true reason (PhaetonChix)*

FORBES SAY'S WE HAVE A tURKEY!


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Chris says the VW logo doesn't represent prestige and image.*

Chris Curran, a Volkswagen dealer in Stratford, Conn., says "it's no surprise" VW is dropping the Phaeton.
"As the volumes got smaller," says Curran, "they decided they didn't have enough funds to support stronger incentive programs."
Curran says the Phaeton represented too big a jump for traditional VW buyers to make. At the same time, he says, luxury buyers did not gravitate to the car.
Says Curran: "People in that high-price range are buying prestige and image, and want the logo to represent that."


----------



## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Chris says the VW logo doesn't represent prestige and image. (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_
......"As the volumes got smaller," says Curran, "they decided they didn't have enough funds to support stronger incentive programs."
......"

*They weren't supposed to support stronger incentive programs!!!*
We were told at Auburn Hills that the discounts were over. What a lie!!
I've always said that the prices should've crept back towards MSRP. I've preached this for months. This cheapens the car when you keep it discounted . 
If the car had been sold at or near MSRP, I guarantee you folks with money would've grabbed it because they would've seen VW as not desperate and it's perceived value would have gone up (even though we know it has real value in terms of quality).
*Of course we also needed ADVERTISING TO COMPLIMENT THIS ACTION*
Paying MSRP is no problem at MB, Lexus, BMW , etc. so why not VW. 
Gosh I wish I could've had a shot at Len Hunt's position after he left!


_Modified by dcowan699 at 10:23 PM 11-18-2005_


----------



## IchBinDarren (Nov 5, 2005)

I can totally understand why the Phaeton isnt doing that well. If I were to pay 70k for a car, I want a BMW, Mercedes etc.... Its hard to spend that kind of money on a car whos maker is named "peoples car" So I think an expensive large luxury car is a little out of character for VW. Although I still do think they are a great car.


----------



## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: Chris says the VW logo doesn't represent prestige and image. (dcowan699)*

Those other brands are supported by massive advertising programs. Phaeton never seemed to have any advertising.


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## mr.vw (Oct 9, 2003)

*Re: (PhaetonChix)*

Quote, originally posted by spockcat » 
Your dealer is one of those exceptional ones. You are also one of the exceptional owners who knows alot about the car. 
What about Joe average Phaeton owner who lives in Central Ohio? They are not among the 2 to 5% of Phaeton owners who know about this forum. They only know what their dealer tells them. Their dealer doesn't keep up their Phaeton knowledge. Their Phaeton tech goes to work for BMW for $5/hr more. I Joe average going to want to drive to Toronto to have his car serviced? I suspect they will just dump the car because it will be too much of a problem.

Jim,
I guess I could ask the same question about the Touareg...why spend big bucks on a VW when you can have a Porsche or now an Audi Q7? What about the average Touareg owner that does not follow the Internet, has a just ok dealer and has limited experience with the complexities the Touareg has to offer? There are far more Touaregs with poor service issues (and build issues for that matter) than Phaetons.
The Phaeton Touareg project I was involved in showed BOTH vehicles in their best light...why can't you?
~PC 

Your wasting your breath on him...any chance to knock VW....
I've called virtually EVERY one of my Phaeton clients this past week...none are really all that concerned. They LOVE their Phaetons...most questioned if I'd have a replacement in 07/08
We've been selling quite a few *pre-owned* Phaetons lately...click the link

http://www.courant.com/classif...story


----------



## W8powered (Dec 8, 2004)

I can feel for all of you Phaeton owners. The Passat W8 suffered from poor marketing as well as the public's perception of VW as a non luxury carmaker. I drove by a Phaeton last night on I-5 heading north toward Sacramento. I didn't recognize the taillight pattern at first glance, then drove closer and saw this beautiful vehicle.


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: (mr.vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mr.vw* »_
Your wasting your breath on him...any chance to knock VW....

Although you screwed up the Vortex quote system, I assume that you are talking about me in this post. If so, I guess you don't recall my work on the Touareg forum. Over there I am accused by people who don't like the Touareg as being a VW shill. I don't think you can knock VW at any chance and shill for VW too. I guess I must have finally found the middle ground (or a sore spot).


----------



## StormChaser (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: (spockcat)*

I was hoping the rumors in TCL were untrue. How sad...but not totally unexpected. In a way, this MIGHT be a good thing for some people. I'd bet V8 Phaetons will be under $25,000 for a ~3 yer old lease-return in great condition with under 45,000 miles...think I just found my Passat replacement...


----------



## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: The true reason (PhaetonChix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhaetonChix* »_
Other than minor modifications, the 4.2 V8 is used in the A8, the Allroad and the Touareg. I don't buy the 2007 regulation story at all. Poor sales, a non supportive dealer network, a sluggish economy and the loss of NA corporate support killed the Phaeton. 
I'm with fuse on this one, it's a very poor excuse. 
~PC

I'm with fuse and PhaetonChix on this also. 
*I would like to make one thing very clear on this forum and subject.*
I absolutely love my Phaeton. I traded a great Mercedes in on it for a low trade in value. I just sold "The most Modified Murano in the World" (NissanMurano.org) to keep it. I have had a brand new Mercedes of just about every model they make in the last 15 years.
What I desperately want to do is: To be able to think of the VW organization as having the class of the Mercedes organization. One time Mercedes replaced a SLK 320 after 3500 miles with a brand new one because of a single engine problem.
They even flew over their head of Air Conditioning to hear my fix on my new 2000 S class and then implement it.
It just seems that I have been overwhelmed at all the horror stories coming out of VW: Len Hunt essentially being forced to quit, Corporate malfeasance Scandals that are actually treated, even in Germany, as big deals, Poor or no advertising by VW of A for the Phaeton, monstrous losses year after year in North America. Now the "Dropping of the best car in the world for twice the money" All of this makes it so hard to defend the company and it's importer with any rational argument. I am not a zealot that can defend them no matter what, others can be and that is fine with me and their right.* I also do not in any way have it in for VW in any way what soever. I am just disappointed and actually saddened by the VW actions, and so wanted them to be a company I could say good things about.







*
Don 

_Modified by GripperDon at 11:03 AM 11-20-2005_


_Modified by GripperDon at 9:50 AM 11-28-2005_


----------



## StormChaser (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_Dream on buddy.









Why do you say that? A 3 year old MB S-clas with 45,000 is worth only $32,000 now...do you really think a Phaeton is going to keep up with a S-clas in terms of value retention? Especaially now that VW has abandoned it? I mean an 04 Phaeton in average condition and with average miles for an 04 has already droped to a Black Book loan value of $35,903


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## JML (Jun 19, 2000)

*Re: The true reason (GripperDon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GripperDon* »_

I am just disappointed and actually saddened by the VW actions, and so wanted them to be a company I could say good things about.








Don 



They are getting there - one day. Mind that exactly 12 years ago VW was on the brink of insolvency with an old model lineup of mediocre cars and getting squeased out on margin by Japanese imports. Piech remodelled the company, but many of the people who grew up on Volkswagen's decade long German ad slogan _"Volkswagen - because you'll know what you're getting"_ (I kid you not) are still working there. The V8 introduction blunder, the silly marketing, all that is the result of decision makers still in place (and unable to be layed off thanks to German job protection laws) who wouldn't dream about driving a Phaeton unless it was as a company car (and you know how service at car manufacturers is when Head of Whatever _Herr Professor Dr._ Whatever calls with an a/c problem - as opposed to some schmuck who bought the car and dared to complain on a Friday at 1 PM). Once these people are gone, you'll see a different, improved Volkswagen (or no Volkswagen at all). 
As for the Phaeton and its successor, Volkswagen (and all other European/U.S. car makers) has to move upwards if they want to survive due to Chinese and Indian competition. A Chinese company called Landwind recently introduced a V6 powered leather power-everything SUV for under EUR 15,000 in Germany. You compete on price against that - you'll lose. And the purpose of the original Phaeton was according to some people inside VW not to make money on itself, but to make M3 drivers contemplate a R32. In last month's auto, motor und sport magazine, the Golf R32 blew away the BMW 130i (would have been the M1 if BMW wouldn't have had a similarly named car 20 years ago). Before the Phaeton/Touareg, magazines would have never dared to put a Volkswagen against a Bimmer. Just the thought...


----------



## gizmopop (Feb 6, 2000)

*Re: The true reason (JML)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JML* »_
And the purpose of the original Phaeton was according to some people inside VW not to make money on itself, but to make M3 drivers contemplate a R32. In last month's auto, motor und sport magazine, the Golf R32 blew away the BMW 130i (would have been the M1 if BMW wouldn't have had a similarly named car 20 years ago). Before the Phaeton/Touareg, magazines would have never dared to put a Volkswagen against a Bimmer. Just the thought...

You might have a point here, While I've always viewed VWs line-up as direct competitors to other German makes (VWs costing much less was just VWs thing) my view isn't the predominant one. If you look at VWs cars going back to the MK3/B4 generation, you will see that they pretty much matched up perfectly with BMWs lineup (save the 7 series which VW didn't have a vehicle in the segment) dimension wise the VWs were always a bit taller while the BMWs were always a bit wider. everything else was usually within an inch of each other....obviously VW didn't have a V-8 or any M-type cars in their lineup then. But you're right the attitude towards VW has shifted a bit in some places...in others (the U.S.) it still has along way to go...
BTW the one of the original reasons the Phaeton came to be was that Piech was tire going to German Auto Industry meetings in a decked out Passat while his contemporaries at BMW/MB arrives in 7 series/ S-class...(and don't say he should have gone in the Audi 8..







)


----------



## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: The true reason (JML)*

I hope you are right! I really do.
Don


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## JML (Jun 19, 2000)

*Re: The true reason (GripperDon)*

I just saw another article in which a Jetta 2.0T Sportline was set up against a 320i. The test ended with an encouraging "do you really need to pay an extra E 6,000 for the BMW? You don't - but you can, if you want." The downside of this is that you can shell out E 50k for a top-of-the-line Golf with all options nowadays (100,000 Marks? For a Golf??). What made this upscaling difficult to convey in the U.S. is the fact that your dealer network is mostly shoite (German VW dealerships look more upscale than BMW and Mercedes dealers) and that the Vee-Dub you know ("Drivers Wanted"TM) is called Skoda in Europe (and its a great success - The Passat Plus-based Skoda Superb once beat the Mercedes E-Class in a comparison test, while the Fabia [sub-compact] and Octavia [compact] sell like the Golf and Jetta MK IV did here a few years ago), while Volkswagen ("For the Love of Automobiles"TM) is the better-value Mercedes.


----------



## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

I found it so ironic that after never having personally seen an ad for the Phaeton that my latest issue of Fortune dated 11/28/05 ( advance date for subscribers) has a full page add for the Phaeton in it. Touting Phaeton #609 in Georgia. With the owner disappointed because she has seen a second one.
Talk about whatever.








Don


_Modified by GripperDon at 3:39 PM 11-23-2005_


----------



## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: (GripperDon)*

I'd love to see the ad. Anyway to post it?


----------



## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (car_guy)*

Oh, please post that. Such a rare thing to see. I ditto the request. I doubt by now we could get a copy of the magazine without a special request from the mag. company.


----------



## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: (dcowan699)*

OK I'll Scan it and Post it.
Don


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: (GripperDon)*

Here we are, November 28 Isue of fortune, Page 39.
 [URL="http://www.hostdub.com/Gripp...bums/GripperDon/phaetonadd001.sized.jpg[/IMG] [/URL]
The text below the Phaetone reads: "
Phaeton#609. Coucou Gray over Krystall Gray leather. Equipped with a 335 horsepower V8, all wheel drive, and a 4 zone climate control system, all standard purchased by Carol Duren of Savannah, Georga, whose only disappointment to date was the day sge saw another Phaeton while leaving her local market, because she "liked having the only one in town.*
At the bottom of the page some of the ext includes, 2004 Phaeton V8 shown, Some features may be different for 2005. Dealer sets actual price. The phaeton is available in limited quanities, ...








Hey thats what it says.
Don


_Modified by GripperDon at 8:56 AM 11-24-2005_


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Another viewpoint on the number sold...*

From August 2004.
Pischetsrieder Slams Phaeton; U.S. Sales in Jeopardy 
Volkswagen AG chairman Bernd Pischetsrieder, who has meticulously avoided overt criticism of the Phaeton sedan hatched by his predecessor, has ended his silence. 
In an interview published in the August issue of British magazine CAR, Pischetsrieder says, "The Phaeton fails to sell because it is not distinctive enough," adding that the next generation could be a blend of estate car and coupe. "It will definitely not be a normal saloon," he said. 
The former BMW chairman who succeeded Ferdinand Piech as head of VW, said VW engineers had conceived the slow-selling Phaeton differently than it turned out. "The marketing people said the luxury buyers would insist on a saloon. That was a mistake," Pischetsrieder said. 
At last January's Detroit Auto Show, Pischetsrieder responded to questions centered on the ill-received Phaeton with more caution. Asked whether he would have approved the program or thought it was correct for the VW brand, Pischetsrieder said, "If I didn't think it was, it would not be useful to say so, would it? You have to sell what you have today, not what you wish you had." 
The Phaeton was the brainchild of Piech who developed the $70,000-$100,000 luxury sedan for the Volkswagen brand after Mercedes-Benz began invading Volkswagen's traditional market segments with vehicles like the A-Class and Smart cars. 
Phaeton sales in Europe have been disappointing, as have reviews in the auto press. In the U.S., sales are even slower. And VW, say sources, is considering suspending exports to the U.S. next year if interest doesn't pick up. -Jim Burt 










_Modified by Paldi at 12:55 PM 11-25-2005_


----------



## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Another viewpoint on the number sold... (Paldi)*

Fred
What's your take on his comments?
Don


----------



## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

*Re: Another viewpoint on the number sold... (GripperDon)*

Don, 
Please note the article is dated August 2004, before European Phaeton sales took off.
~PC


----------



## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Another viewpoint on the number sold... (PhaetonChix)*

PC, Glad to hear from you !
The screwy thing is, it is not a article or a news story it's an *ad.* Can't conceive of an add using such out dated info? Even the copyright on the ad is 2004! Very unusal for a company to not copyright for the year being published, even if it is a repeat ad. My larger wonder is, guess they didn't think ahead. (gee now unusual) running a *rare* ad to appear after 2006's are out and refering to the 2005 model saying "some features may differ for 2005", further irony it appearing after they announce the cessation of importation.
The whole thing smacks of incompetence. ( PS, I am well aware of publishing lead times, planing for that would require thinking from the wonderful VWoA marketing department and the financial masters)
Anyway I'll keep it as a collectors item, as it is probably the last ad for Phaeton to appear in US press.
Well folks wanted to see it so there it is, no more comment from me on this,







Don 


_Modified by GripperDon at 9:31 AM 11-24-2005_


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Another viewpoint on the number sold... (GripperDon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GripperDon* »_The screwy thing is, it is not a article or a news story it's an *ad.*

I think PC's referring to the article that Fred posted three above.


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Another viewpoint on the number sold... (chrisj428)*

Chris,
You may be right.
But since she started off saying Don.
I thought PC was refering to the Add, but now I see it easily could have been my comment re. the Fred Article, Sorry about that.
Well the comments re. the Ad are still viewpoints.
Hope you had a Good Thanksgiving.








Don



_Modified by GripperDon at 10:28 AM 11-25-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Another viewpoint on the number sold... (chrisj428)*

All I want for Christmas is to see this depressing thread die a natural death, and roll off page 1 of the forum.








Michael


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Another viewpoint on the number sold... (PanEuropean)*

Just before clicking on the subject line, I was thinking the same thing.







Their is really nothing left to be said.


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

With 5800+ views it is still of interest to many, Even more view than the Bird Dog Price updates.
It depresses me also, but pretending it did not happen will not change things, Time will pass and it will die away, folks can concentrate on modding the car again. Unfortunately right now a mod all want is a reprieve of it's death sentence.
A good discussion of how to upgrade the NAV system to a DVD based unit would really help distract folks. The 42 reviews on the Edmunds site list that as the #1 complaint on the Car, Not bad, IMO it also had review of about 9.8 overall Great. Some of us gave it a 10.



_Modified by GripperDon at 4:19 PM 11-25-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (GripperDon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GripperDon* »_ A good discussion of how to upgrade the NAV system to a DVD based unit would really help...

That cannot be done.
The navigation system in the Phaeton comprises two different controllers. One is the J401 navigation processor, which is built into the CD player that we load the various navigation discs into. The other is the J523 Front Information Display Control Head, which serves only to display the information created and/or read by the J401.
At present, there is no DVD based navigation controller available from VW that will provide an output that the J523 can display. It is possible - and this is just theoretical speculation, nothing more - that if VW carries over the existing J523 into the 2007 Phaeton model year, but replaces the J401 with a DVD based unit, that we might be able to retrofit a newer J401 at that time. I kind of doubt, though, that they would do an engineering refresh on the J401 without also doing an engineering refresh on the J523 - specifically, a faster processor. This makes it kind of unlikely that a newer J401 would be compatible with our existing J523 units.
Not to mention the matter of getting DVD based cartography for North America that will support a vehicle that is not sold in North America.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

But, if anyone wants to start *another thread* (hint, hint) about such topics, so this one can die and roll off page 1... hey, we can look at it there.
Michael


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Might be possible to take the output of my laptop Computer running in the glove box with the DVD based NAV software I have on it and feed the video out from the Laptop in put it into one of the video adapters available for the Phaeton Infotainment unit completely by passing the computing, NAV and display functions of the current controllers.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (GripperDon)*

Might be simpler, cheaper, and less Rube Goldberg to just get an aftermarket GPS if you feel the OEM one is unsuitable.
But... If you did that, then this thread might finally die off... and then what would you do?


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Using the Laptop allows, GPS, Rear camera, VAG-Com Display, video, etc.
All very handy an a utilization of available technology. Plus elimintaes a driveing view obstruction and wires hanging all over the place as well as being a possible hazard is a collision.


_Modified by GripperDon at 9:38 AM 11-28-2005_


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (GripperDon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GripperDon* »_
BTW, What is your problem, Go get a life. If you want the *tread* to die quit posting on it.


*Uhh, I think Michael has a life.* He does more real work on the Phaeton than any of us could imagine.


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## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re: (dcowan699)*

I thought this thread was suppose to die?


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (rmg2)*

It's like that cow in the movie "_Me, Myself, and Irene_". It seemingly has 9 lives


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## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re: (dcowan699)*

Oh!


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## W126C (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: (rmg2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rmg2* »_I thought this thread was suppose to die? 

Now that Thanksgiving is over, let the _turkey_ die!
Regards,
Brent


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## Four Speed Fox (May 16, 2005)

*Re: (mr.vw)*

I know this thread is supposed to die, but...

_Quote, originally posted by *mr.vw* »_What about Joe average Phaeton owner who lives in Central Ohio? They are not among the 2 to 5% of Phaeton owners who know about this forum. They only know what their dealer tells them. Their dealer doesn't keep up their Phaeton knowledge. Their Phaeton tech goes to work for BMW for $5/hr more. I Joe average going to want to drive to Toronto to have his car serviced? I suspect they will just dump the car because it will be too much of a problem.

There may be something about which I am not aware, but...
I live in Central Ohio. I was born and raised on the East Coast and I am aware that "central Ohio" is some kind of synonym for "land of the ignorant hicks" among the blue-staters. That being said, the Phaeton dealer in central Ohio is likely to be this dealer:
http://www.magcars.com
In the last couple weeks they've delivered a Carrera GT, a Flying Spur, two Continental GTs, and an Aston DB7 AR. I'm working with them on a Phaeton right now and it's tough because they've typically sold them within a week of hitting the ground. 
You could do a little worse than to deal with these folks, central Ohio or no


----------



## anothercar (Dec 20, 2002)

*Re: (Four Speed Fox)*

The biggest issue with the Phaeton and Touareg is their dealers inability to fix them. Often a fix will require several trips to the dealer, and sometimes we just have to wait 4 months for a TSB to be issued that allows the service techs to "follow the steps" and get the job done right.
The problem isnt the car itself, as mentioned by Alan (4 x 4, treg owner) the problem is the inconsistency of VW dealership service departments (ok...window regulators and coilpacks aside). Find out where in Mass he goes, and bring your car there...








Most industries are not judged properly until something goes wrong, and they are forced to show us how they perform. In both cars cases, with the dealers in the NY area, VW failed miserably. We owned them for years, maintained them meticulously, and have moved on. I loved the cars...loved them. 
You are at the mercy of your dealer, unless you can do all the service yourself, which isnt as easy as it was 15 yrs ago. I hope your Ohio dealer is up to the job. That will make all the difference.


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: (anothercar)*

Damn I hate winter...
Come on down to Scottsdale.


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (CapoVWSales)*

Suggestion to all:
If you insist on posting to this thread (or in fact, any thread), can you at least keep it on-topic? 
I'll remind everyone, the topic of this thread is "2006 will be the last year for NAR Phaeton sales (yes, sadly, it is true)". If you want to post a comment on a different subject, please find an existing thread or open a new one. It makes finding material later much easier.
Thanks


----------



## marcelito (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (PC Dave)*

Got the phone call to from the Phaeton center







, and ask them what is going to happen with us Phaeton clients. His response was that they are open and are lisning to all options we offer. For example he told me that there is a chance that the Phaeton clients get a coupon or a larger incentive to the Audi A8, but nothing is solid regarding this he says.








Also the fee you pay on the end of the lease I think is $300,00 should be waved, because there is no other car that I would take from VW after my Phaeton goes back







. So I went to the Audi dealer and ask about the A8 the car is nice but not even close to the Phaeton. What shock me that is most things are options and have a high price tag







. Means we will never get a deal we have on a Phaeton.


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## Kcmover (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (marcelito)*

I have yet to received a call or be sent the letter. So I am hopeful that I get my change to go on record on what options they might offer Phaeton owners. For my satisfaction and to keep the price of the vehicle up I would hope it would be some extended warranty at a fair and reasonable price. 
Larry


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (Kcmover)*

* copernus0001* made a neat comment in another thread about the Phaeton still being available under the Flying Spur Logo.
Wouldn't it be great if we could have Phaeton Service transferred to the Bentley Dealer. They might have even better compatibility than an Audi dealer.
An official move to transfer the service responsibility to them might be the best way to ensure quality service into the future. Is VWoA the Importer for Bentley?
What is the general response to that? Is that a request that the group would support. Since I don't want a credit toward any other VW's and some folks Say the A8 is a lot less vehicle and others thing poorly of Audi Owners maybe a BIG credit toward a Bentley would be the ticket. 
Don


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## dubbluvr (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: Get em while they are still available (CapoVWSales)*

This is too bad. I love this car. I just wish I had the income/wealth to buy one.


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## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re:*

Just for the record, everyone should know that the Phaeton may yet live in the NA market.
Can't say more at this time but there is a 50/50 chance that VW may reconsider. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Bottom-line is that those who would like to see the Phaeton remain in the NA market need to let their opinions be known to VWNA.
They are listening.
Stay tuned, this thread may die yet, but with a different ending.











_Modified by rmg2 at 6:11 AM 11-29-2005_


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Re: (rmg2)*

If it comes back, they must Advertise, advertise, advertise AND Support, support , support. What a great Christmas Present that would be.


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## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re: Re: (GripperDon)*

Don,
If it comes back it will be as an on order bases only. The goal would be to allow the Phaeton to define its own market presence and volume.
Only those dealers who want the car would order the car. We're hoping that since the Phaeton would be available as an on order bases only that VW will open up the Individual program. This will set the Phaeton apart from the S Mercedes and the 7 series.
My argument to VWNA is that the A8 has been imported to the USA for over 10 years now and Audi still only sells a few thousand of them with a marketing budget, what did they expect from a Phaeton with a VW badge.
It seems VWNA is trying to work it out with the parent company in Germany.
But do not look for any advertising or promotional dollars as the Phaeton would be a low priority car until such time as VW can regain some momentum on their volume cars (Jetta/Passat, etc.
The Phaeton customer care would stay in place.
All I can say is that if you Phaeton owners are serious about keeping the Phaeton in the NA market then I suggest you write or call VWNA to express your support. Be polite and but firm with your conversation.


_Modified by rmg2 at 3:09 AM 11-29-2005_


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Re: (rmg2)*

Calling tomorrow. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Thanks, Don


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Re: (GripperDon)*






















Also calling tomorrow!






















We will take care of the marketing ourselves if need be. Any ideas? New thread perhaps???


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Re: (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_ New thread perhaps???

Insh'Allah...


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Re: (Paldi)*

Sounds good to me an it gives me a chance to Make Michael Happy, and despite his thoughts to the otherwise, I respect his knowledge and efforts, I was only hurt by the comments about my country and my motives and abilities. I am *sorry* if I aggravated him in any way it was never my intention to do so, I love the Phaeton and the Forum 

So let the New Thread Roll. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Don


_Modified by GripperDon at 10:29 PM 11-28-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Re: (GripperDon)*

Thanks Don, it is kind of you to say that.
I also apologize for the way I phrased my earlier remark about 'The American Way' - I can appreciate why you took offence, though it was not my intention to give offence.
Michael


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

*Re: Re: (PanEuropean)*

Wouldn't it be grand, if the special order option came thru. Wow! I could still look forward to the possibility of getting a after mid model refresh Phaeton AND just the way I wanted this first time around, but could not find.
Don 



_Modified by GripperDon at 12:29 PM 12-6-2005_


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## trekguy (Aug 16, 2004)

*Re: Re: (GripperDon)*

You guys are now getting my hopes up!
Instead of looking toward the new S-Class ready to debut in the USA, I can wish for a new Phaeton and stay loyal to the VW Brand.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Re: (rmg2)*

Rick, is their a specific phone number , email , or address we should take our correspondences to?
Also, this info needs to be placed on that new thread about starting the Phaeton back up (can't remember the title). Just started today I think.


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## AusSalzburg (Nov 4, 2004)

*Re: Re: (dcowan699)*

Help me to understand this.
If VW is losing money right now on every Phaeton they sell in the US, then why would it matter if they sold a lot more every year?
Also, if VW is selling Phaetons right now without advertising (I think I saw 800 Phaeton's this year) then what is the problem? 
I'm confused, because 800 Phaeton's sold a year just in the US market seems like a lot for and exotic car.
Werner


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## ryangambrill (Aug 1, 2005)

*Re: Re: (AusSalzburg)*

I have read a few posts that claim one of the main reasons for the demise of the Phaeton in the USA is because of the exchange rates. 
I do agree that the US$ lost ground against the Euro over the past 5 years. But, if you look at the trend, we are currently at a 12 month high, and very close to a 24 month high (US$ vs. Euro). 
Why would you pull a product for this reason, just as we start to gain steam? As the fed increases the interest rates, our currency is going to keep gaining.


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