# So, my trans is out...Cryo the gears or go Aptuning? Quaife?



## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

Guys,
I'm married, just had a baby (8mos old), and my old lady does the finances (thank God, b/c I'd be broke if she didn't...honestly).
But the downfall to that means she knows EVERYTHING that I spend my coin on (not nec a bad thing...except when it comes to my car).
So...
Most of you know I blew up my gearbox (and still wondering how...that will come soon) and I picked up a used one with 95000 miles on it.
No 2nd gear grind, nothing "wrong" with it (except it's stock).
The one I just broke had all new gears in it (except 5th) and a peloquin...and was just rebuilt about 5k miles back.
I think I broke something in the diff area but don't know what.
Hopefully most of everything is ok (I could drive it fine after the case broke) hah!
but I need to make a decision.
I can have my entire gearbox (and it's internals) cryo-treated for $250 (yep, that's everything inside including the case)...
I can blow a small load and get the aptuning gears.
Or I can blow the mother load and get the Quaife (wifey will flip a lid so I'm not sure that it's in the cards).
What do you guys think I should (or can) do?
Keep in mind:
I NEVER drop the clutch from a stop
I NEVER "chirp" the tires
I NEVER have traction hah.
I ALWAYS wait until I'm totally in gear to put the foot down.
So, it's not like I'm drag-racing out there.
But I will have about 15psi...and I'll be getting a larger turbine housing so boost will come on later (hopefully this will help).
What do you guys think?



_Modified by nater at 7:47 PM 3-26-2006_


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## -:VW:- (Jan 27, 2006)

I think Cryo treating is over kill for what you need it to do. Who put it together 5k ago and do you not suspect an error in the installtion for this kind of failure to have happend withOUT you:
Dropping the clutch from a stop.
NEVER "chirping" the tires.
ALWAYS waiting until I'm totally in gear to put the foot down.
I suppose though if you can get it done for $250 go for it. Slap the Peloquin back in and I would hope you'd be ready for war.



_Modified by -:VW:- at 5:21 PM 3-26-2006_


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: (-:VW*

I never said that I didn't suspect a problem with the rebuild...I was just keeping that out of the post...
Thanks for the info man.


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## AlwaysInBoost (Sep 4, 2001)

*Re: So, my trans is out...Cryo the gears or go Aptuning? Quaife? (nater)*

you know where I stand, I have the quaife 6speed and love it. Its my favorate mod other then the turbo.
Of the 3 options you listed I suggest you DO NOT put the stock gear box back in. Even if it means having the car down for another 6 months. If you put another stock box back in the car its only a matter of time until you break that as well. Not to mention that feeling of driving around with a ticking time bomb, you know what I'm talking about.
Cryo treating used gears I've read isn't the best idea.

_Quote, originally posted by *nater* »_
Keep in mind:
I NEVER drop the clutch from a stop
I NEVER "chirp" the tires
I NEVER have traction hah.
I ALWAYS wait until I'm totally in gear to put the foot down.
So, it's not like I'm drag-racing out there.


The things you listed above are fine but you forgot one very important thing. What about when your in boost on the highway and you hit a bump







bye bye stock gear.


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

Good thread, i'm considering what to do when I have mine out soon.... are there any other gear sets besides the APTuning and 6-speed Quaife?
-m


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## -:VW:- (Jan 27, 2006)

*Re: (maxslug)*


_Quote »_I never said that I didn't suspect a problem with the rebuild...I was just keeping that out of the post...
Thanks for the info man.

Just trying to make a point, that if it didn't break from the way you drive it, why dump all that cash into it. If it was due to installation error only it would still be running judging by the driving habits you've listed. A tar strip or a bump at high speed with the right amount of torque & HP may cost you a gear box, or it may not. There's lots of variables involved there. I'm just like you I don't launch it, I don't ride it. The pedal goes to the floor only when the clutch is completely out. No burn outs, no red light racing. I wait for an open stretch of back country road with nice smooth asphalt and lean into the power. It depends on your driving habits and the roads you drive on. Just my .02, hopefully nothing was taken the wrong way....


_Modified by -:VW:- at 8:24 PM 3-26-2006_


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## nycvr6 (May 4, 1999)

*Re: So, my trans is out...Cryo the gears or go Aptuning? Quaife? (nater)*

My vote is for the quaife gears too.








Really though, they have proven to be the strongest gears available yet for the o2a. For the guy who said "chirp" the tires, obviously youve never driven a turbo vr6. There is no "chirping" going on.


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## OhSnap (Jan 31, 2006)

*Re: So, my trans is out...Cryo the gears or go Aptuning? Quaife? (nater)*

*cough* o2m 6 speed *cough*


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: (-:VW*


_Quote, originally posted by *-:VW:-* »_ Just my .02, hopefully nothing was taken the wrong way....

_Modified by -:VW:- at 8:24 PM 3-26-2006_

I didn't take anything the wrong way. I appreciate the input. I appreciate Alwaysinboosts' input also...
And I know what he's saying there too...I don't mind if my car is out another 6 mos....
I'm also waiting on somebody to help with making brackets for the o2m swap...I may do that.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: (nater)*

APT http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: (killa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_APT http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I'm leaning that way...
Also thinking about the o2m swap.


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## [email protected] (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: So, my trans is out...Cryo the gears or go Aptuning? Quaife? (nater)*

Go APTuning or quaife. I have the APTuning 1-4 with the 3.00 1st gear and I love it.


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: So, my trans is out...Cryo the gears or go Aptuning? Quaife? ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Go APTuning or quaife. I have the APTuning 1-4 with the 3.00 1st gear and I love it. 

Is the 3.00 first gear a wider gear? What is the stock 1st?
For example, what is your max speed in first gear at redline (or around 7K)?


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## [email protected] (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: So, my trans is out...Cryo the gears or go Aptuning? Quaife? (nater)*

O2J 1st gear is a 3.62. APTuning offers a 3.00 and a 2.67. The 3.00 is a more streetable 1st gear, especially when dealing with a puck clutch. 2nd gear hits about 80mph at 7k rpms, but I've never really tried to see what 1st would go to.


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## dtowndubdriver (Mar 20, 2006)

*Re: So, my trans is out...Cryo the gears or go Aptuning? Quaife? ([email protected])*

my stock box was cryo'ed and i have a peliquin with boost and now to be a bottle so far DSS driveshafts and everything have held up great.I will be the first to admit that when i play i play hard and have had a few good high gear grabs that i thought would hurt the tranny and it came away fine.Oh and im running a spec stage 4 disk so theres no give.


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## [email protected] (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: So, my trans is out...Cryo the gears or go Aptuning? Quaife? (dtowndubdriver)*

How long since you had it done and how much power do you have?


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## JETTSET (Oct 16, 2001)

*Re: So, my trans is out...Cryo the gears or go Aptuning? Quaife? ([email protected])*

Quaife, there is no substitute. Save your money and go with the best.


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## DrunkenMunkey (Jun 29, 2005)

*Re: So, my trans is out...Cryo the gears or go Aptuning? Quaife? (JETTSET)*

If you can go new, Id do it that way.


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

Thanks everybody...
I'll keep you all updated but i may have just got my hands on an O2M VR6 6sp for a swap.
I think this is my best "all around" alternative. 
My thoughts:
1) I will never put down "crazy" power (I'll be w/in the high 300whp's.
2) I'll never drag strip it.
3) If I do break something, it's not Quaife stuff I broke and I have options.
And when all is said and done it'll cost a bit less.
I keep thinking about the cost of the aptuning and Quaife gears but then I keep thinking of how I don't want my first experience with assembling a gear box to be with expensive gears...so I'd pay to have it installed.
With a swap, it's all a matter of getting the box in...and I'm not touching the "inards".
Unless you guys can tell me why I shouldn't do it, I think this is the way I'm going.
I think I found a swap (o2m box with shifter box, cables, trans, flywheel, clutch) for high teens (1800-1900) and am working on sourcing the driveshafts and have access to the mounts I need.
*I think*.


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## [email protected] (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: (nater)*

I contemplated the O2M swap when I did my APTuning gears, and didn't do the O2M because its still a stock vw tranny. The feel of the O2M when shifting is so much better (I used to have an 03' 24v vr6 with it), but I couldn't put a stock tranny back in there. 
If I were you I would run a short runner intake manifold, larger a/r like you said before, and make sure you are running a boost controller that doesn't torque spike. That should help you avoid the spin and hook issue that loves to break gears.


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## f0xf0702k1 (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: So, my trans is out...Cryo the gears or go Aptuning? Quaife? (nater)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nater* »_
Keep in mind:
I NEVER "chirp" the tires
I NEVER have traction hah.


1. that makes no sense
2. why do you own the car


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: So, my trans is out...Cryo the gears or go Aptuning? Quaife? (f0xf0702k1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *f0xf0702k1* »_
1. that makes no sense
2. why do you own the car









What doesn't make sense about it?
You want me to do burnouts all day long in it? I'm 32 years old. I don't weave in and out of traffic, I don't act like an idiot.
When I'm in gear and beat the isht out of it...But I wait until I'm in gear.


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_If I were you I would run a short runner intake manifold, larger a/r like you said before, and make sure you are running a boost controller that doesn't torque spike. That should help you avoid the spin and hook issue that loves to break gears.

Well,
I'm contemplating that as well. The larger a/r is DEFINITELY in the cards for sure.
But I've already made up my mind on the o2m thing...I'm gonna do it. Even though it is stock.
Like I said, I don't beat the hell outta my box so it'll be ok. Plus, I keep hearing about guys running crazy HP on that box. And I'm not planning on anything crazy (to prove that statement: I've been running 8.5 psi since last year when I installed the turbo).
Thanks for the help http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## -:VW:- (Jan 27, 2006)

_Quote »_I'm contemplating that as well. The larger a/r is DEFINITELY in the cards for sure.

That will be a big help, but will you miss the boost down low, eating a sandwich waiting for the boost to come up? The 6 speed (02m)sounds like the way to go also they are supposed to be a bit stronger. With your power goals, not beating on it, o2m, a quaife, and a good clutch you should be good to go. IMO this is getting a bit silly now you don't race it. If I were you I'd leave the A/R on the hotside be.


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## [email protected] (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: (-:VW*

I think the gearing on the O2M will make up for the larger a/r somewhat.


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## AlwaysInBoost (Sep 4, 2001)

*Re:*

good choice on the tranny. I agree with the statement above on the hotside. If you are only going to be doing daily driving you may regret moving your powerband up that much.


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## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: Re: (AlwaysInBoost)*

Are you going to be doing a diff in the 02m?


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

Maybe I'll just try the a/r as it stands with the o2m...and then see.
What about the o2m diff? Is it stronger then the POS o2a diff? IE...was it held in with bolts or rivets?


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## [email protected] (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: (nater)*

There is a kid around my area with an O2M and a 400+hp 1.8t and he has had stock diff forever. And I know he's been to the track a few times, but just on street tires. I would def do a diff though. And he wants to really bad.


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## OhSnap (Jan 31, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: (OhSnap)*

I'm assuming that's the o2m...and I'm also assuming the diff is a bit stronger than the o2a (sure looks it...right? No rivets).


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## VWAUDITECH (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: (nater)*

What turbine a/r do you have??If you have a .58 I would say kick it up to a .69 or .85 .


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: (nater)*

In the 24v forum there is a guy with a HPA FT400 setup running on the stock tranny (O2M). There are also some guys with the EIP stg1 kit that put ~320whp on the stock tranny and clutch actually. Its pretty dang tough for a stock VW piece, I would say you would be fine with the stock tranny internals for now but a diff would be nice. Are you going to be running the stock 02M clutch? It will work in the mid 300whp range but it wont last forever.


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## not SoQuick (Jan 8, 2004)

*Re: (VWAUDITECH)*

I used to never pay attention to these threads......allways was under the assumption the 02a was a strong box,well at least when the aba was struggling with getting to 200 whp and 020's







Now after 3.5k or into my current abf headed aba I start reading about guys stripping the 02a's















internaly the engines built....externaly:tuning etc is gonna be the usual progression but after these hurdles I'm guessing I wont be much better off with 400 whp and the 02a gearbox than I was with a 200 whp and a 020








well in short what I'm asking is this more of a problem with just vr's?or is it just a problem period and if so what kinda #'s do people really start to strip em


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## MarcoVR6SC (May 3, 2003)

*Re: (nater)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nater* »_I'm assuming that's the o2m...and I'm also assuming the diff is a bit stronger than the o2a (sure looks it...right? No rivets).


You should be fine with the gearbox, the 02M with 3 shafts are a lot stronger (and heavier), but that are rivets on the diff.


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## dmiller9254 (Sep 8, 2004)

*Re: (MarcoVR6SC)*

The 02J gearbox, the only one that I've had experience with, will break if driven hard in stock trim. However, after blowing my first one, I had a second one rebuilt (by a pro nitrous-beetle tranny builder) with solid hardware and workmanship: a peloquin diff with the bearings and bolt kit, an upgraded clutch fork (a must with higher clamping force pressure plates), an street/race clutch, and an upgraded dogbone mount. I drive the piss out of the car and have had ZERO problems with the gearbox. I also have it on very good authority that the STOCK GEARS in the 02J gearbox are good for a safe 400whp, driven responsibly. DSS stage two axles along with this setup will make a very affordable and powerful driveline solution. The most important part in keeping your gears intact, in addition to not dropping the clutch at every stop, is to make sure that the weak link in the driveline is either your clutch or your tires. If you're running 400whp with a great clutch and 13-inch wide Mickey Thompsons... expect problems from the gearbox. But unless you're doing that. something like quaiffe is totally overkill. BTW, cryo treatment is god's gift to stock gears. It doesn't matter how old they are, as long as they aren't damaged cryo treatment is fine. My "good authority" has said that cryo treatment takes the threshold of the stock gears from 400whp to 500whp (as long as everything else is up to the challenge). From what I've read I suspect foul play in the rebuild of the tranny because, especially from you're supposed driving habits, there's no way in **** that an 02J should have just given out like that. Another thing to remember with APTuning gears is that, unlike OEM gears, they are designed FOR RACING. Although built for greater strength, they tend to live shorter lives due to things like shallower tooth pitch, and semi-helical gear cuts. One last hint: if a stock tranny's brass syncros were druggies, Redline MT-90 would be their acid-laced crack.










_Modified by dmiller9254 at 12:41 AM 3-31-2006_


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: (PhReE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhReE* »_Are you going to be running the stock 02M clutch? It will work in the mid 300whp range but it wont last forever.

I plan on using the stock clutch to start.
I'll pull the tranny later on and replace the diff and clutch assemblies.
As long as the O2M isn't known for self-destructing the tranny like the o2a one is.


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: (dmiller9254)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dmiller9254* »_ One last hint: if a stock tranny's brass syncros were druggies, Redline MT-90 would be their acid-laced crack.









_Modified by dmiller9254 at 12:41 AM 3-31-2006_

I am planning on using the redline stuff in this trans. Thanks for the tips man.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## AlwaysInBoost (Sep 4, 2001)

*Re: (nater)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nater* »_
I am planning on using the redline stuff in this trans. Thanks for the tips man.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

you should re-think that plan.


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## HOVTroll (Jan 10, 2005)

*Re: (AlwaysInBoost)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AlwaysInBoost* »_you should re-think that plan.

Why?

Also there was a post about being in full boost and then hitting a bump and the saying bye bye to your stock gears..







Can u definatly explain that.. Wouldnt that be a suspension problem?
Cheers


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## AlwaysInBoost (Sep 4, 2001)

*Re: (UBER1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *UBER1.8t* »_
Why?


I've tried to use Redline fluid 75-90 & MTL in both my stock trans and the quaife six speed. In both units it caused gear grinding. Tired GM Snycromesh and that was a 'little' better but not much. Best thing I've used so far has been the Mobil 1 75-90. It cost about $8.00/qt but the trans shifts like butter and there is zero grinding.


_Quote, originally posted by *UBER1.8t* »_Also there was a post about being in full boost and then hitting a bump and the saying bye bye to your stock gears..







Can u definatly explain that.. Wouldnt that be a suspension problem?
Cheers
















Its kind of like spinning the tires and then hooking up on the street... hitting a bump in the road, even an expansion joint _can_ be very bad when your in boost. There are a lot of factors that come into play like wheel weight, tire size, side wall stiffness, gear oil, luck, ect.


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## HOVTroll (Jan 10, 2005)

*Re: (AlwaysInBoost)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AlwaysInBoost* »_I've tried to use Redline fluid 75-90 & MTL in both my stock trans and the quaife six speed. In both units it caused gear grinding. Tired GM Snycromesh and that was a 'little' better but not much. Best thing I've used so far has been the Mobil 1 75-90. It cost about $8.00/qt but the trans shifts like butter and there is zero grinding.

Its kind of like spinning the tires and then hooking up on the street... hitting a bump in the road, even an expansion joint _can_ be very bad when your in boost. There are a lot of factors that come into play like wheel weight, tire size, side wall stiffness, gear oil, luck, ect.

But if your started to spin your wheels wouldnt that cause them to keep spinning when they came into contact with the road surface? I am a little lost in that logic.. Thanks for the info..

Cheers


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## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (UBER1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *UBER1.8t* »_But if your started to spin your wheels wouldnt that cause them to keep spinning when they came into contact with the road surface? I am a little lost in that logic.. Thanks for the info..

Cheers 

Not really. Think of it this way, the road surface is creating friction that prevents the wheels from spinning. Obviously, most VR6T's make enough torque to overcome this friction. However, the friction the road is enacting on your tire is proportional to the weight over the tire. Makes sense right? It should, since it's more difficult to move heavier object over rough surfaces.. When you bounce the car over a bump, this weight changes, and so does the friction force on the tire while this is happening. When this happens very rapidly, you are putting a serious force through the drivetrain. Since it's unlikely to break the tire/wheel, the 'snap' is going to travel through the drivetrain until it finds something willing to break. Usually it gets to the gear set or axle and finds the weak link.


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## -:VW:- (Jan 27, 2006)

*Re: (leebro61)*


_Quote »_Also there was a post about being in full boost and then hitting a bump and the saying bye bye to your stock gears.. Can u definatly explain that.. Wouldnt that be a suspension problem?

When you hit a good bump or tear up a tar strip on the street IN boost at high rpms your tires will loose traction and spin freely UNTIL the rubber comes into contact with the pavement again. When they catch think of the force that puts on EVERYTHING in your drivetrain. Get on a 10 speed bike and put it in 1st gear and start ridding up a steep hill, standing up while pedalling, now quickly shift to tenth gear and tell me what happens. Do you feel the impact in your knees and legs? Did the chain snap or did one of the cogs strip off 10th gear? Similar deal with your transmision.


_Modified by -:VW:- at 3:19 PM 3-31-2006_


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## dmiller9254 (Sep 8, 2004)

*Re: (AlwaysInBoost)*

Redline is not what causes your gears to grind, shifting too fast is what causes your gears to grind. I can attest that redline MT-90 works very well in the stock gearbox, ESPECIALLY when compared to that cow manure that is sold from dealerships. Also, that thing about hitting a bump and saying goodbye to your gearbox makes NO sense to me whatsoever. You've got several safegaurds against that. The dogbone tranny mount, for one, and for two, hitting a bump is only as bad as shock loading the tranny via clutch drop if you get airborne and then rev the engine with the clutch engaged before landing. I strongly disagree that going over expansion joints or bumps is what is going to cause you're transmission to fail. Even if you were to get airborne and shock load your tranny by revving with the clutch engaged, it wouldn't be as stressful as a cluctch drop because of the forward momentum you already have. In other words, there isn't as much inertia to overcome. In the words of the diesel geek tuning company owner, "people kill transmissions", tranny failure isn't just a self-induced driveline failure that occurs for the sole purpose of making you miserable. 


_Modified by dmiller9254 at 4:34 PM 3-31-2006_


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## -:VW:- (Jan 27, 2006)

_Quote »_ Also, that thing about hitting a bump and saying goodbye to your gearbox makes NO sense to me whatsoever. You've got several safegaurds against that. The dogbone tranny mount, for one, and for two, hitting a bump is only as bad as shock loading the tranny via clutch drop if you get airborne and then rev the engine with the clutch engaged before landing. I strongly disagree that going over expansion joints or bumps is what is going to cause you're transmission to fail. Even if you were to get airborne and shock load your tranny by revving with the clutch engaged, it wouldn't be as stressful as a cluctch drop because of the forward momentum you already have.

I would agree with you IF we were talking about the car being in stock form, with stock power levels BUT were not. All of these "Safeguards" are meant for the stock engine putting out stock power levels not on a modified engine putting out double or tripple those numbers.


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## dmiller9254 (Sep 8, 2004)

*Re: (-:VW*

All I'm saying is that, no matter what power you're making, the harshest method of putting load on you're transmission, other than rolling backwards and popping the clutch, is popping the clutch from a stand still. There's just no way that I'll ever be convinced that shock loading the transmission by switching the load of kinetic coifficient of friction to static coifficient of friction (no traction to traction while rolling, as was described earlier) would be more harmful than a clutch drop for two reasons. 1) The instantaneous rate of change of force by a clutch drop is much larger than a rolling shock load. 2) When you're rolling you have a forward momentum and thus a reduced inertia to an instantaneous load on the transmission. The only time that a rolling shock load could potentially be worse would be something like a 7K clutch drop at 5mph vs. a 2.5K clutch drop from a dead stop, which is an apples and oranges comparison because a 7K dead stop clutch drop would be much worse than at a 5mph roll. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (dmiller9254)*

Well, I think the difference is that when people are at a stop and they rev their motor and drop the clutch, the tires instantly break loose and they don' find traction again until the driver is off of the throttle. It's not like your burnout hooks and unhooks, and so on. People rarely break parts by spinning the tires. 

_Quote, originally posted by *dmiller9254* »_ 1) The instantaneous rate of change of force by a clutch drop is much larger than a rolling shock load. 2) When you're rolling you have a forward momentum and thus a reduced inertia to an instantaneous load on the transmission. 

About this, are we talking about the force on the drivetrain, or the specific force on the gears? It seems to me that if you drop the clutch and nothing prevents the tires from lighting up, there shouldn't be an overwhelming torque on the gear teeth.
Either way, I have no expertise in this category. If the people breaking gears say that they break after hitting bumps in boost, I won't argue until I start breaking them myself in other ways.


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## AlwaysInBoost (Sep 4, 2001)

*Re: (dmiller9254)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dmiller9254* »_Redline is not what causes your gears to grind, shifting too fast is what causes your gears to grind. I can attest that redline MT-90 works very well in the stock gearbox, ESPECIALLY when compared to that cow manure that is sold from dealerships. Also, that thing about hitting a bump and saying goodbye to your gearbox makes NO sense to me whatsoever. You've got several safegaurds against that. The dogbone tranny mount, for one, and for two, hitting a bump is only as bad as shock loading the tranny via clutch drop if you get airborne and then rev the engine with the clutch engaged before landing. I strongly disagree that going over expansion joints or bumps is what is going to cause you're transmission to fail. Even if you were to get airborne and shock load your tranny by revving with the clutch engaged, it wouldn't be as stressful as a cluctch drop because of the forward momentum you already have. In other words, there isn't as much inertia to overcome. In the words of the diesel geek tuning company owner, "people kill transmissions", tranny failure isn't just a self-induced driveline failure that occurs for the sole purpose of making you miserable. 

_Modified by dmiller9254 at 4:34 PM 3-31-2006_

Shifting too fast has NOTHING to do with gears grinding. I have no idea where you came up with that. If your trans is grinding and you’re running Redline fluids switch to Mobil 1 and your problems will be solved. I can flat shift my car with zero grinding with Mobil 1. I was giving my personal experience on Redline fluids. I've actually tried Redline in my EVO and also had the EXACT same results as the VRT. So have dozens other EVO owners. Brass syncros & redline fluids do not mix. I can't make anyone switch there gear oil so it’s up who ever to decide what they want to use. I've been there and done that.
From your post it sounds like you've never driven a FWD car with 400+ TQ at the wheels. do a search and see how many people have lost a gear while boosting on the highway. 
wheel spin in a VRT happens in an instant. With the car already moving there is no "shock loading the tranny" as you call it. the 'slack' from those drivetrain components I listed above is gone and all the force gets transferred directly to the transmission (this is where those factors I listed in my other post come into play).
when you launch a car from a stand still there are a few driveline parts that transfer the power. Tires, axles, pressure plate and clutch disk just to name a few. Plus you have the clutch which you can modulate and transfer the power. Unless you just drop it which I have done and usually it results in a broken pressure plate.
I don't mind that you disagree with mine or anyone else’s opinion, but do you have any actual facts or real world experience to back up our assumptions?


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## dmiller9254 (Sep 8, 2004)

*Re: (AlwaysInBoost)*

Gear clash IS caused by shifting too fast. Maybe due to you're experience of switching to a gear oil with better frictional qualities and having gear clatter disappear you think that it is not dependent on the speed at which you shift. You have my word that gear clatter is caused by shifting too fast, but it can be helped with things like steel syncros or better transmission fluid. Syncros are overwhelmed when you shift too fast and the gears don't have enough time to align properly. Believe me, I did not pull that out of my arse, it is just part of how a transmission operates. Think about tractors built in the 50s and the reason that you couldn't just switch gears. You had to switch to nuetral, let out the clutch to match the rotating speed of all the gears, and then slowly shift into the desired gear so that the teeth would mesh. Well, thanks to syncros we don't have to do that anymore, but shifting too fast will still cause gear clatter. Assuming that a transmission is not broken and that it has a decent fluid, any gear clatter is either caused by bad timing between the clutch disengagement and shifting, or simply by shifting quicker than the gear teeth have time to align. The phrase that I used when referring to a dead stop launch was "clutch drop." Clutch modulation from a launch is a whole different ballgame. Also, for clarification, shock loading is simply a sudden force induced into a system. You say that when a car is already rolling there is no "shock loading." Well, although not exactly the same as what I was saying, that is direction my argument went to begin with. What I was referring to is when people say they are having wheel spin and then shift from wheel spin to traction and experience a sudden induced load on the transmission. This is due to the sudden change in force experienced by a switch from a situation of kinetic friction (wheelspin) to static friction (traction). Such a load should be gradual with a good tire (thus the term "smooth breakaway"), but with the wrong tire it can be a real problem and can induce a sudden force or "shock load" the transmission (among other driveline parts, but the case in point of this thread is the gearbox). My argument however, is that although such a load can be experienced, it does not compare to the load induced by a dead stop clutch drop. As for rolling start comparisons there is the case when the clutch is already engaged and you punch it, which is puny compared to a dead stop launch. Then the more serious comparison was a rolling 7K clutch drop, or "clutch kick", which is more serious than a rolling punch, but still not as stressful as a dead stop clutch drop because a rolling start reduces forward inertia due to the inversely proportianal relationship between forward inertia and forward momentum. As for real world experience, my car is on it's third transmission, the most recent one has been fully built with the exception of cryo treatment and unstreetable steel syncros. I've lost count of how many clutches I've lost, much less flywheels I've eaten through. However my axles are still solid and only recently, after all the tranny's the car has gone through, have the C/V joints begun to pop in typical FF fashion. And in response to my assumptions, they're more like educated guesses than assumptions. I'm just trying to be helpful because I feel I'm pretty knowledgable on the subject. I've never been real good at putting things so that people can understand what I mean when I say something so I suppose, as in most cases, the misunderstanding lies in communication problems. Sorry 'bout that. 


_Modified by dmiller9254 at 12:13 AM 4-1-2006_


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## MarcoVR6SC (May 3, 2003)

*Re: (dmiller9254)*

Gear clash Is caused... blablabla.
As you explain it (the tractor), if the two or three shafts or better, the gears, are at the same speed, you cannot shift to fast. It all depends on the configuration like flywheel, pulleys, gear ratio, whatever. But even then, at that moment you switch gears (the clutch is pressed in), there is almost no stress on the gearbox and drive train, so shift as fast as you can, if you’re to fast it just won’t go in. That's not what is breaking gear boxes, it’s the power and torque.
Like AlwaysInBoost says, you don’t have to buy that oil, buy your self a bear (if you may) and cool down.
Sorry Nate, off topic.


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## mechsoldier (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: (MarcoVR6SC)*

Shifting too fast absolutely does cause grinding, if you say it doesn't then you've never rebuilt them and don't know how they work. The faster you shift the more you wear the syncros because they have less time to work their magic, causes more wear and they can't do their job as well. And if they aren't speed matched and try to mesh that will cause gear wear/chipped teeth and stuff. Double clutching helps by matching the speeds of the gears without really using the syncros much.


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: (MarcoVR6SC)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MarcoVR6SC* »_
Sorry Nate, off topic.


No biggie. Although my head just emitted a little puff of smoke as this conversation is well out of my league.
All I know is that I *try* not to boost it AT ALL on "common" rough pavement (ie. pavement that I've known to be rough in my area).
I keep it to the smooth surfaces.
Whether or not that causes the failure, I couldn't give to isht's







. All I know is that I need something tougher all-around.
Thanks for the info.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## HOVTroll (Jan 10, 2005)

*Re: (nater)*

**Off-Topic**
Is there any sites besides ATP Tuning that offers any good tranny upgrade parts?(such as upgraded shift forks?) For an O2M Tranny? 

Cheers


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## maxslug (May 22, 2005)

So here's what I'm getting out of this thread...
1. Bumpy roads + VRTs = Stripped gears? 
This was new to me.
2. I could pull out my stock 02A gears and get them cryo treated and expect them to stand up to more torque/hp?
-m


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: (maxslug)*


_Quote, originally posted by *maxslug* »_2. I could pull out my stock 02A gears and get them cryo treated and expect them to stand up to more torque/hp?
-m

I would say that #2 would be an incorrect assumption from this thread. I think that could be debated for another decade. 
What I know to be true is that the o2m is stronger then the o2a, which is why I just ordered my complete o2m swap







.
cryo treating may help get a bit more holding power but how much I think is the real question....


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## vgtiw18t (Mar 17, 2005)

*Re: (UBER1.8t)*

EIP has clutch forks.


_Modified by vgtiw18t at 8:50 PM 4-10-2006_


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## dmiller9254 (Sep 8, 2004)

*Re: (vgtiw18t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vgtiw18t* »_EIP has clutch forks.

_Modified by vgtiw18t at 8:50 PM 4-10-2006_

They work very well


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

Who PM'd me and was going to make me the mounts????
PM me again...I've sourced my conversion and will be needing these mounts fabbed.
Thanks!!!


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## HOTSKILLET98 (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: So, my trans is out...Cryo the gears or go Aptuning? Quaife? (nater)*

bumping. I'm in the same boat losing 3rd gear on the track yesterday.


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## shortshiften (Mar 29, 2005)

i just put a quaife 6 speed in and lsd and i love it it make the car fun all over again. and it was acuatly fun to put all the gears together. a fun little project. well worth the money


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## jettaflair (Jan 7, 2006)

back to the original questions... are you talking straight cryo or a cryo/rem treatment? both will recuce parasitic drag and allow more power to the wheels where it matters, but you really should slap a LSD in there to help with traction and braking. that's a great price on Cryo but it really needs a LSD along with it too. Wait another month and drop the $800 at USRT for a peloquin and you won't regret it. In fact I'd say buy the LSD and the cryo treatment will be the icing.


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

I just ended up putting an O2M tranny in it. Still get the 6 gears and OEM parts if anything breaks - plus, I heard it can handle some power.
So, I actually went in a totally different direction then my original question.


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## shortshiften (Mar 29, 2005)

*Re: (OhSnap)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OhSnap* »_

that looks so much different that the o2j''s 
looks alot beefier


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