# Frankenturbo



## blkjettavr6 (Nov 7, 2001)

Unfortunately I never got to experience much fun with it. 
I was having an overboost issue I could not figure out. 
Checked all lines multiple time.
Switched n75s. Added boost controller.
Bypassed n75.
Check everything again.
Nothing seemed to help.
Everytime I changed something I needed to see if it still overboosted.
Tried one too many times - see below.










Blah!

Any insight on the overboost issue?


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

cool picture, at least it didn't let loose and put window the block.


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## 20psi now (Feb 26, 2009)

wow i bet it was fun for the time you where trying to find out if you where getting any overboost! great pic, sucks time for some stronger rods!

do you have vag com? maybe you can see what the computer is asking for boost wise..
are you chipped?


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Man that sucks! Sorry to hear.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Damn dude that really sucks.. Can I ask why you didn't drop rods in while you were at it? Seems like insurance that would be worth the money.. Sorry, not trying to rub it in.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Did you figure out what the over boost was? Faulty wastegate?


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## blkjettavr6 (Nov 7, 2001)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

One of these things is not like the other


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## 20psi now (Feb 26, 2009)

Self lowering compression! :laugh:


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## blkjettavr6 (Nov 7, 2001)

hehe. thanks for the laughs. It helps.

I still have no idea about the over boosting... obviously i cant keep testing at the moment 
Apperantly this thing just spools way to fast and the n75 and or boost controller cant keep up.
I wish I was informed of this *prior* to install. This all was avoidable....

I have a vag com but I never got that far. I changed nothing with the turbo swap so it was still looking for apr's 21psi i think. I dont remember.
I added an s4 maf housing and 4 bar to get by until I get my new chip...I was dealing with this overboost and never got to address the fueling.

I did do rods first because I figured I would be on the edge of needing them but still be ok. If it wasnt for the crazy 30+psi overboosting I think i would have gotten away with it.

Ordering part tomorrow.


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## SB_GLI (Oct 17, 2005)

Have you tried running the wastegate straight from boost pressure, instead of through a boost controller (N75 or MBC)? It'd be nice to know if your wastegate is working at all. I think my wastegate (FTH-4) is set around 7-8lbs from Frankenturbo. I wouldn't expect to see > 10lbs if you run the wastegate right off of straight boost pressure.


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## blkjettavr6 (Nov 7, 2001)

SB_GLI said:


> Have you tried running the wastegate straight from boost pressure, instead of through a boost controller (N75 or MBC)? It'd be nice to know if your wastegate is working at all. I think my wastegate (FTH-4) is set around 7-8lbs from Frankenturbo. I wouldn't expect to see > 10lbs if you run the wastegate right off of straight boost pressure.


Yes that was one of the last things I tried.
It ran about 7psi. 
So I ruled out the wastegate there.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

blkjettavr6 said:


> Yes that was one of the last things I tried.
> It ran about 7psi.
> So I ruled out the wastegate there.


That looks like one of the two rods that I bent after switching to E85 (way too much torque for the OEM rods). The massive early boost overshoot that you're getting is because your way of controlling the early spike is not quick enough. My remedy was two MBC, one controls the spike while the second one took care of max boost.


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## blkjettavr6 (Nov 7, 2001)

Update:

Finally got a set of IE rods.
They were back ordered! Just my luck!

Anyway the car runs good. Running line directly to the wastegate. 10psi.
The problem seems to be all software related.

I should have new software tomorrow but we will see about that.


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## deltaP (Jul 26, 2011)

blkjettavr6 said:


> Update:
> 
> Finally got a set of IE rods.
> They were back ordered! Just my luck!
> ...


Please define "software related" as I am running the APR 93 tune...


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## 20psi now (Feb 26, 2009)

deltaP said:


> Please define "software related" as I am running the APR 93 tune...


My guess is a eurodyne 630 tune that slappy has been playing with that eurdyne has made for the f23, Or some type of big turbo tune alike.


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## blkjettavr6 (Nov 7, 2001)

deltaP said:


> Please define "software related" as I am running the APR 93 tune...


APR tune requests too much boost too fast. n75 cant keep up.


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## deltaP (Jul 26, 2011)

I have a Modshack MBC upstream of the N75 on K04 and it runs just fine up to 24 psig, although I most often have it set at 22 psig. Works great!


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## 20psi now (Feb 26, 2009)

deltaP said:


> I have a Modshack MBC upstream of the N75 on K04 and it runs just fine up to 24 psig, although I most often have it set at 22 psig. Works great!


thats fine for the k04 but what you need to under stand is that the franken turbo can out flow a gt28, the softwear is ment for the k04 and its power level that is gonna put out. now you can run the f23 with the apr but you will need to use the MBC to control max boost/spike and play with unisetting to get fuel and timeing right. the f23 at 22 psi is gonna flow a lot more air then the k04 that is on the car now and it will spool just as fast.


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## deltaP (Jul 26, 2011)

20psi now said:


> thats fine for the k04 but what you need to under stand is that the franken turbo can out flow a gt28, the softwear is ment for the k04 and its power level that is gonna put out. now you can run the f23 with the apr but you will need to use the MBC to control max boost/spike and play with unisetting to get fuel and timeing right. the f23 at 22 psi is gonna flow a lot more air then the k04 that is on the car now and it will spool just as fast.


As a Chemical Engineer (model hydraulic gas systems) your reply could be partially correct. The f23 at any given pressure (22 psig) IS going to flow the same volume of gas on the intake side. Now there might be a different exhaust side pressure drop, but I doubt it. The f23 might compress the gas more efficiently (with less heat) and it might spool faster, but at any given pressure (in a steady state) the flowrate will be the same (due to the equations of state/ideal gas law) provided no other changes have been made except the turbo swap. If you want to flow more gas (air) you must compress more air by increasing the pressure or change the internals/decrease the exhaust side pressure drop.


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## 20psi now (Feb 26, 2009)

deltaP said:


> As a Chemical Engineer (model hydraulic gas systems) your reply could be partially correct. The f23 at any given pressure (22 psig) IS going to flow the same volume of gas on the intake side. Now there might be a different exhaust side pressure drop, but I doubt it. The f23 might compress the gas more efficiently (with less heat) and it might spool faster, but at any given pressure (in a steady state) the flowrate will be the same (due to the equations of state/ideal gas law) provided no other changes have been made except the turbo swap. If you want to flow more gas (air) you must compress more air by increasing the pressure or change the internals/decrease the exhaust side pressure drop.


In thery the f23 is bigger then the k04, if you can flow more from any given turbo you can run less psi to make the same power. It don't matter much any way you look at it a 50trim can flow 35 (ish)lbs in turns make some where around 350hp. The k04 flow less then the f23 like I sad you can use the apr tune but you will have to tweke with unisetting to get fule and timming right. The more air you put in to and engine you have to add fuel, now in turns of turbos any given turbo bigger or smaller will flow a differnt (lbs per min) the bigger the turbo the more lbs per min you flow at a lower boost pressure. Now exhaust (ar) as a play in flow also as it also has a play in temp but the bigger the AR the slower the spool, to tell ya the truth I'm way to drunk right now but you should get what I mean.


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## deltaP (Jul 26, 2011)

20psi now said:


> In thery the f23 is bigger then the k04, if you can flow more from any given turbo you can run less psi to make the same power. It don't matter much any way you look at it a 50trim can flow 35 (ish)lbs in turns make some where around 350hp. The k04 flow less then the f23 like I sad you can use the apr tune but you will have to tweke with unisetting to get fule and timming right. The more air you put in to and engine you have to add fuel, now in turns of turbos any given turbo bigger or smaller will flow a differnt (lbs per min) the bigger the turbo the more lbs per min you flow at a lower boost pressure. Now exhaust (ar) as a play in flow also as it also has a play in temp but the bigger the AR the slower the spool, to tell ya the truth I'm way to drunk right now but you should get what I mean.


Respectfully, The laws of thermodynamics disagree with part of your statement. I should draw a box around the turbo to clearly define and explain what I am seeing. "imaginary box" around the compressor side of the turbo. A compressor is a centrifugal gas compressor. It will compress a gas into a smaller volume (increase in pressure). Lets use the ideal gas law for simplicity. PV=nRT. The intake tract or any given volume of pipe will have a specified volume. Let's also assume for simplicity that we will model this "system" at a steady state. So, we will imagine we will stop the engine and model it under the conditions of normal full throttle operation at 3000 rpm to define the amount of volume of space we must fill. 

As we fill the volume of space in the intake tract (and partial engine internals) the pressure will increase. Compressing the gas increases the pressure futher until 22 psig is reached. (You perform the same test when you pressure test the intake hoses with a home air compressor.) It does not matter what type of compressor, turbo, turbine, or volume bottle you use. The volume of gas will be the same at 22 psig. This is based on thermodynamic laws. 

Now I do agree that the f23 has the potential to flow more gas overall, hence the larger size, but for a given downstream pressure drop (1.8L engine), the gasflow rate is the same at any given equal pressure between the two turbo's. This can be seen by the K04 struggling to produce 35 psig (and falling) approaching 8000 rpm, on the f23 it should hold 35 psig easily. 

The density of a gas or the mass flowrate (lbs/min) of any two turbo's will be the same at the same pressure if the downstream pressure drop is unchanged (1.8L engine).

If you placed both turbo's on a 5.0L engine. The f23 might boost to 20 psig where the K04 would never come close to that pressure.

Does the f23 flow more gas? Overall yes, at the same pressure as the K04? No, it can't do to the gas laws.

The power increase from the f23 must be derived from a lower pressure drop on the exhaust turbine side of the housing. It also might spool much quicker. I don't doubt that the f23 might produce more power, but it does not flow more gas than the K04 at the same pressure. Many people have tried to break the laws of physics and thermodynamics, but up to this point, only the aliens have succeeded.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Using thermodynamics to explain won't get you very far. :laugh: People just don't grasp the concepts. For example, a K03 Sport on a 180HP 1.8T has the same compressor wheel as a K04-001, yet the K04 makes ~10-15 more HP by virtue of the larger more efficient turbine. It's all about the efficiency of the turbine and the work it does on the compressor side.


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## venmousracer (Dec 31, 2007)

you should p/m iTech on here, this guy knows his stuff. He is working directly with the guys at frankenturbo, on coming up with a software tune and new goodies…. Eddie


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## deltaP (Jul 26, 2011)

20v master said:


> Using thermodynamics to explain won't get you very far. :laugh: People just don't grasp the concepts. For example, a K03 Sport on a 180HP 1.8T has the same compressor wheel as a K04-001, yet the K04 makes ~10-15 more HP by virtue of the larger more efficient turbine. It's all about the efficiency of the turbine and the work it does on the compressor side.


I agree completely.


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## 20psi now (Feb 26, 2009)

yeah (deltap) you good sir have me lost! :laugh: i can understand some stuff but i dont understand what you have posted.. i guess now im gonna have to try and learn some new stuff so i can some what have a comment back to ya :beer:


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## deltaP (Jul 26, 2011)

20psi now said:


> yeah (deltap) you good sir have me lost! :laugh: i can understand some stuff but i dont understand what you have posted.. i guess now im gonna have to try and learn some new stuff so i can some what have a comment back to ya :beer:


No worries. I learn something new everyday. That is why I'm reading posts on the forum.:beer:


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## deltaP (Jul 26, 2011)

20psi now said:


> yeah (deltap) you good sir have me lost! :laugh: i can understand some stuff but i dont understand what you have posted.. i guess now im gonna have to try and learn some new stuff so i can some what have a comment back to ya :beer:


A good place to start is the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mytvt0wlZK8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-Iz414g-ro&feature=related


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## deltaP (Jul 26, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mC0v6uHFpk&feature=related


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## blkjettavr6 (Nov 7, 2001)

None of that matters....
First hand expirence proves it spools MUCH faster.
Read all the books you want and do the math... in the end the f23 spools significately faster than the ko4.


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## deltaP (Jul 26, 2011)

blkjettavr6 said:


> None of that matters....
> First hand expirence proves it spools MUCH faster.
> Read all the books you want and do the math... in the end the f23 spools significately faster than the ko4.


Nice. That is what I needed to know.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

you all know that bad detonation will destroy rods, any rods. aftermarket rods would not have saved him.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

speed51133! said:


> you all know that bad detonation will destroy rods, any rods. aftermarket rods would not have saved him.


Let me help here!
Bad detonation is most likely create hot spots on top of the pistons, power loss, pinging noise and if sustained for a long, loooong time, punch a hole in one of the piston and lead to engine failure. What will do what you describe (destroy rods) is two things:
1) big early torque spikes
2) Pre-ignition 

1) Is the OP's problem and why he bent the OEM rod. 30 psi of overboost at onset is way more than what the stock rods can handle. The torque spike that they are subjected to, in such a condition, is just too great and they twist. I have done it first hand with E85 (no chance of detonation even at MBT), good monitered AFR and low calculated EGTs. The early torque output from 30+ psi just bent two rods in my case (IE rods, in the exact tune and a lot more timing and abuse, are surviving lovely.)

2) pre-ignition is a rare but different condition from detonation (they are often confused with each other). They are both classed under "Knock" over the internet because their frequencies are picked up by the noise sensors on the block. They are caused by different things, happen at different time and have totally different outcome. Pre-ignition, if sustained will distroy an engine almost instantly (melted plugs, trashed head, snapped rods and even bent crank). In tuning school, we tested two similar engines to see the effect of detonation vs pre-ignition; the pre-igniting motor lasted minutes while the detonating one lasted days (never really completly failed before we pulled the plug, so really bad detonation is not as bad as most people think but still not ideal).


To solve your overboost issue OP, forget about softwares as they are only using the N75 to control wastegate duty and boost. You need to:
a) bench test your wastegate actuation preload pressure and fine tune it, if you plan to keep using the N75 as your boost control

b)use a more controlled method to set boost. A overboost MBC (ball and spring that bleeds boost when the desired pressure is reached) will work wonders if set properly, EBC will also do an excellent job at setting both onset and maximun boost held (they even have tunable rpm ramp maps to set boost control).


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

deltaP said:


> Respectfully, The laws of thermodynamics disagree with part of your statement. I should draw a box around the turbo to clearly define and explain what I am seeing. "imaginary box" around the compressor side of the turbo. A compressor is a centrifugal gas compressor. It will compress a gas into a smaller volume (increase in pressure). Lets use the ideal gas law for simplicity. PV=nRT. The intake tract or any given volume of pipe will have a specified volume. Let's also assume for simplicity that we will model this "system" at a steady state. So, we will imagine we will stop the engine and model it under the conditions of normal full throttle operation at 3000 rpm to define the amount of volume of space we must fill.
> 
> As we fill the volume of space in the intake tract (and partial engine internals) the pressure will increase. Compressing the gas increases the pressure futher until 22 psig is reached. (You perform the same test when you pressure test the intake hoses with a home air compressor.) It does not matter what type of compressor, turbo, turbine, or volume bottle you use. The volume of gas will be the same at 22 psig. This is based on thermodynamic laws.


Great post, and I admire a good technical explanation for things with laws of physics behind it :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:!



deltaP said:


> Now I do agree that the f23 has the potential to flow more gas overall, hence the larger size, but for a given downstream pressure drop (1.8L engine), the gasflow rate is the same at any given equal pressure between the two turbo's. This can be seen by the K04 struggling to produce 35 psig (and falling) approaching 8000 rpm, on the f23 it should hold 35 psig easily.
> 
> The density of a gas or the mass flowrate (lbs/min) of any two turbo's will be the same at the same pressure if the downstream pressure drop is unchanged (1.8L engine).
> 
> ...



There are a few things here that puzzled me a little bit. What happen to heat and efficiency?
I totally agree that the flow rate will remain the same between the two turbos if pressure is constant. However, what happens if that pressure is say 35 psi between a stock turbo and a FT?

My educated guess is that the OEM turbo will go past it's wheel efficiency as the rpms go up, hit surge line and choke and stall. While the same thing may happen to the FT, it'll occur way later in the rev range (the compressor wheel on an F23 are a lot more efficient than the OEM blades in various aspect beside inducer and exducer sizes; backing plate, blade profile and tip angles are all improved). So staying on the compressor side of things and keeping turbines constant, IMO although the gas laws dictates that flow rate is unchanged between the two turbos at the 35 psi, the FT will be a lot more efficient than OEM and make more power from the cold side only.

Another point that seemed to be left out is heat. 33 psi from my k04 is lava and not usable, I have to intercool it, than chemically cool it some more with water injection, and then run a fuel that burns 200 degrees cooler to be be able to make use of it. On a FT, with bigger more efficient compressor wheels, that 33 psi will be cooler and denser in O2 molecules and netting me more power with no other variables. My 2cents!


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

blkjettavr6 said:


>


You have to make a wall mount for that :thumbup:


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## deltaP (Jul 26, 2011)

madmax199 said:


> Great post, and I admire a good technical explanation for things with laws of physics behind it :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice Max. I completely agree!!


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## deltaP (Jul 26, 2011)

l88m22vette said:


> You have to make a wall mount for that :thumbup:


I agree! That would be great for an office!:beer:


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## HolvTT (Feb 22, 2011)

Just a noobish question, but how much (rough estimate) power can one make from a f23 with stock manifolds, 3inch exhasut, short ram intake, and lets say a unitronic 630cc tune?


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

300/300


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