# Project Lucille: Eurovan VR6 build and 5-speed conversion



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

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So this is certainly an adventure and the biggest car project that I have bitten off -- converting my 02 EVW to 5-spd manual using the elusive 02G-AFL transmission. I have fielded a few inquiries as to how this was going and I thought I might start a small thread here to chronicle things as the project gets started. I've been sitting on the parts for over a year -- and finally have the right window to start working on the van. I will certainly get to the details of this, but I just want to start with an intro of sorts.

For years I sat on the sidelines, looking at Vanagons/Dokas and waiting for the "New Microbus" concept to come to fruition. With onset of children and the necessity of a people-hauler, it was actually Cole's original thread that inspired me to go Eurovan -- and specifically look at 24v-VR6 models. Once I saw the front end off the van -- I realized it was no more difficult to work on than any of the other VWs I've owned (all water cooled). Owning something built in this century is a little bit reasuring to my wife, whom I wouldn't want behind the wheel of "classic" car anyways (with concerns of safety, reliability, etc). I don't want to get into the pissing war of Vanagon vs Eurovan - clearly each has merits/detractions. However, I do believe that most people neglect to see how the Eurovan was actually a rebirth for the vw-van platform -- even Volkswagen itself likens the T4's succession of the rear-engine design to that of the Golf replacing the Beetle.

I've owned a good half dozen VW's leading up to the decision, so I was not alarmed to read that there are "some issues" with the model that scare others away. I figure almost all cars have issues -- what sets VW's apart (IMHO) is the dedicated enthusiasts who share their knowledge and impart wisdoms that build user communities. What did keep me a little hesitant - were the automatic trans repair stories - whether or not they are overblown - I don't know. I have never been keen on automatic transmissions -- so I was always thinking of swapping transmissions from the get go. Be it a mTDI or something else - I was dead set on changing it. 

Now even though I'm in Canada (land of funky Eurovans) -- there is a noticeable shortage of long-nose vans and they are impossible to find. I passed on the opportunity to buy a local one owner, ultra-ultra-low mileage 02 EVW in my province -- because the price was close to $30k! I realized I couldn't stomach spending that much on something I would being looking to convert to a manual and started to look stateside for a good deal. In a whirlwind week of van shopping in Vancouver and Seattle - looking at 12 vans - I was lucky enough to find "Lucille" a Tornado Red EVW owned by a true van/bus enthusiast.

The moment I first saw "Lucille" drive across the parking lot -- I was smitten. In hindsight, and knowing her the way I do now -- I can safely say that she looked good from a far... Still, I was convinced of her potential -- and the lowest price 24v-VR6 EVW I had seen in while. Highway mileage at 225k and two owners - with some rust starting on the rocker panel, some banged up interior pieces. The right community-vibe from the owner sealed the deal. He took pride in the EV (while also owning himself a Syncro-High-top) and had gotten Lucille ready to keep before deciding to sell -- putting on new 215/70/16 BFG ATs, Blistein HDs, a Yakima rack, an ARB awning, Pioneer double-din dvd player. To me it was good value on the extras . When I agreed to keep the van named "Lucille" he took another $500 off. Handshake, done deal. 

EDIT: I think the real reason I got $500 off is because there was a second of tires that I couldn't bring back in the van with all the stuff I had -- but it I like remember it the other way.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

My lucky find happened just over a year ago. I was searching for components to do a TDI swap -- and I landed at the Quality German Parts webpage. There, nestled in among the diesel engine components, was a little section devoted to Eurovans. Within it -- a very rare, somewhat rusty - AFL transmission conversion "kit". The parts included the transmission, clutch, shift linkage, pedal set, starter, and axles all for $3k. I thought that was a fair deal cheaper than rebuilding the automatic (not that is a problem - but I had budgeted for it), so I immediately called and sealed the deal. Items were shipped up to Montana, where I went and picked them up and brought them back to Canada. I didn't heed the advice to play dumb at the border -- being an honest schmuck -- and paid the extra 10% import duty.

For those interested in Quality German, there is some good stuff there now -- 1.9td engines and even a 2.5tdi and I believe a rusty syncro setup as well. Just be sure that you call Thomas to discuss things directly as he is not keen on email inquiries and won't respond timely unless you have made the effort to establish contact with them first. Very busy I guess. 

So the parts -- most of them were pretty grimy, with some rust and even some damage. But they are used goods -- so not totally surprised. I can't recall the exact milage, Thomas said that the items had about 150-175k km on them.

*02G-AFL Transmission*








Lots of dirt on this - I'm still cleaning it!

*Shift Linkage or Schaltgestänge*








FYI: This is not the same shift linkage as that found on early Eurovans - although they share components. On this Reverse is found below 5th.

*Pedal set*








This is a set from an early manual T4/Eurovan. The 24v and 2.5tdi vans use a potentiometer on the accelerator pedal. Fortunately - they share the same base plate and you swap the pedals over.

*Axles*








These were pretty rusty -- but I sense that this is normal for used axles. Either way, while I'm in there I plan on replacing these with new ones - although its nice to have them on hand for reference.


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## djnibler (Aug 5, 2005)

Congrats on the purchase and the swap. Looking forward to watching the progress.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

djnibler said:


> Congrats on the purchase and the swap. Looking forward to watching the progress.


Thanks Nibler -- your swap thread was a real inspiration as well. Thanks for making it look easy.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Itsamoto,

this is one seriously good looking Eurovan. Back in the 1990s I once owned a Tornado Red Audi 200TQ. It was gorgeous. It even made it into the European Car magazine when they ran a "best buy" roundup or something like that. 

Godspeed with the conversion! Please document it as well as you can. I for one will be anxiously following every step. As much as I like my Eurovan every time I get behind the wheel I get annoyed by the automatic transmission and my wife refuses to drive it at all cuz she can't stand slushboxes. If you manage to perform this conversion with off the shelf components or with minimal custom fabrication I'll be all over it in mine.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> Itsamoto,
> 
> this is one seriously good looking Eurovan. Back in the 1990s I once owned a Tornado Red Audi 200TQ. It was gorgeous. It even made it into the European Car magazine when they ran a "best buy" roundup or something like that.
> 
> Godspeed with the conversion! Please document it as well as you can. I for one will be anxiously following every step. As much as I like my Eurovan every time I get behind the wheel I get annoyed by the automatic transmission and my wife refuses to drive it at all cuz she can't stand slushboxes. If you manage to perform this conversion with off the shelf components or with minimal custom fabrication I'll be all over it in mine.


When I has van hunting, my wife was hoping that I would find a silver van like the ones I had shown her when I said "we need one of these" -- she didn't know they also came in tornado-red ). Usually I would never choose red -- I've always considered it loud and reserved for genuine sports-cars. Of course the wife hated it a first - but its actually really grown on her. I'm colour-blind so it also helps me overlook the rust a bit more .  So easy to find in a parking lot too! :thumbup:

If anything, with this conversion and then maybe a small turbo, Lucille will earn her "Tornado-Red" stripes.

Yes, don't loose hope on converting to manual. It's doable, and the parts are going to loosen up for these soon. Hopefully this helps others out there looking to do the same.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

With Lucille's high mileage (225k miles @ purchase) -- I considered that the engine would probably need an overhaul and I quickly found signs of an oil/fluid leak. Little drips off the driver side. Little drips off the passenger side. It eluded me for a long time -- because the leaks were happening in multiple places. There were some evap flow codes that I assume were a leak in the pvc tube by evidence of the electrical tape fixes. Chains were getting noisy, lots of oil and sludge in places. So - it was time to hunt for a second engine. I figure having two engines would allow me the time to learn about rebuilding the engine - or sourcing it out without pressure.

It seems like doing a complete rebuild on a 24v vr6 costs almost the same (if not more) as buying a new crate engine. Still - I could not afford either option and I looked for used BDF code engines (found on Mk4 Jettas/Golfs). My second lucky find -- a low mileage 2003 Jetta GLI (130k km or ~80k miles) for $500 CDN (that's ~$400 USD)! A 100 miles away -- parked with a broken axle, torn up front rim/wheel, busted transmission case, and a tear through the oil pan. The owner had run up a ice bank, bought a new car, and was ready to move on. The engine looked clean inside and I picked it up and towed it home on a dolly. 










I have an 2002 Jetta 2.0 as well that I am the original owner - -but it sadly needed some TLC. The GLI nicely fit the bill for a series of upgrades to that car and I transplanted a 3pt leather steering wheel, a full leather interior (nice high bolster, heated seats), replaced a broken side mirror, replaced a rusted front fender panel, trunk, hood, OEM monster mats, aftermarket headlights, and window regulator clips! Whew! 

Then I parted out the following:


Hood (from 2.0) - $50
Magnaflow Muffler w/tips - $50
Downpipes and cat - $60
Rear Bumper - $60
Taillights - $30
Wiper Linkage - Goodwill
Radio - $10
Cup Holders - $10
Passenger mirror - $5

I found a replacement rim for the one that was damaged -- and now I still have a nice set of 17" rims to sell or put on one of my Mk4s. 











UPDATE: I managed to sell the rims for $400! Minus the $ I paid for the 4th wheel, that officially puts me into the "black" with my Jetta purchase.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

For the van -- I kept the engine and its accessories - and set aside the ECU, engine wiring harness and the manifolds.

I was going sell off the accessories, but its actually pretty nice to have an extra AC compressor, 120A alternator and power steering pump. All are similar to the Eurovan's -- save for the pully. The EV pullys are offset about 1 cm from the block , and are slightly wider too (7 groove vs 6) when compared to the BDF. Wider pully and belt. This also goes for the crank pully and water pump. I like the idea of the extra clearance -- but may stick with the BDF parts -- they are in better condition.

The transaxle with the Jetta was an 02M 6spd. I took it out with the engine and compared it to the 02G (Eurovan) and an 02A (mk3 VR6) out of interest. Wish I took some better pics for this...

*Transaxle Comparison *








_From left to right: 02A, 02G-AFL, 02M_

The 02A is much smaller in comparison -- with the differential being about half the size of the other's. If you look at the bolt pattern for mounting -- you can see there is section with a flat/straight edge to it. This is the "top" of the transaxle in normal mounting -- this would align to the top most bolt holes on the engine block -- just below the thermostat housing. So you can see the degree of offset is quite substantial for the 02G-AFL -- compensating for the way the van's engine is rolled forward (15 degrees?).

So if you want to mount a Mk4 transaxle to your van -- the engine rolling forward actually would raise the output shaft. So do this - probably would adjust the engine mounting position -- more vertical and lower to align the output shaft better. Or you can wait for me to get you an 02G-AFL-X. ; )


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## CRAIG1MACK (Mar 26, 2000)

awesome thread, thanks for sharing! i have a 2002 EV GLS.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

From what I've gathered, the clutch that I got in my kit doesn't have much life left in it. The clutch disc is fairly worn, and there is a crack in the pressure plate. While I'm there - I really should be replacing these things... better now while its all apart, rather than later. This is a real oddball clutch though - it's 219mm. I've sourced a replacement (disc, pressure plate and TO bearing) -- here in NA for close to $375 CDN shipped. Or, conversely I can order one from the UK for about $300 CDN shipped. 

*02G kit clutch Condition*








_Hairline crack in pressure plate -- usually a sign of heat stress._









_Worn out disc._


What I'd really like to do is see if I can use another clutch assembly altogether. The 02G-AFL has a 22mm diameter input shaft, which I believe is the same as MK3/Corrado/Passat VR6s. So I'm leaning on finding something from those cars -- perhaps a 228mm disc that will work with some parts I have on hand? From my collection of BDF engines, I actually have one clutch set that is in very good condition. The disc won't work, as it's for the larger 24mm diameter input shaft -- but the flywheel looks good -- just not sure if the pressure plate will fit inside the bell-housing without rubbing. The overall dimensions are very close -- its the taper of the pressure plate. If I could use these parts and just add a disc that works that would be cheaper and more readily available option.

To use the BDF DMF setup -- I ordered a custom made clutch disc from Clutchnet. 240mm dia with the 22mm input shaft. The only problem, is I've been waiting for it for some 7 weeks now... :sly:

*Clutch Comparison*








_Left -- 02G 219 mm clutch, Right --240mm clutch from the 02M_









_Side view_


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Such a pleasure to see a few good pix amidst the ocean of cellphone camera garbage posted everywhere nowadays.

Good move regarding the more mainstream 240mm clutch although you will have to play with the TO bearing and/or slave cylinder pushrod to make the clutch disengage in the sweet spot.

It's good that you don't have to deal with SAC. Just went through the clutch replacement in the wife's 6-speed Allroad. For your entertainment here are the 3 final chapters of the 7 chapter long saga.

http://forums.quattroworld.com/allroad/msgs/230868.phtml
http://forums.quattroworld.com/allroad/msgs/231088.phtml
http://forums.quattroworld.com/allroad/msgs/231432.phtml


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> Such a pleasure to see a few good pix amidst the ocean of cellphone camera garbage posted everywhere nowadays.
> 
> Good move regarding the more mainstream 240mm clutch although you will have to play with the TO bearing and/or slave cylinder pushrod to make the clutch disengage in the sweet spot.
> 
> ...


Wow that is an awesome body of work that you shared - thank you. Detail - I love it! And with lightbox photography as well? -- Whoa! 

Reading your post really makes me think I haven't done enough measuring.  I never even contemplated that the pressure plate fingers have different elasticity ratings - but that makes a lot of sense. I wanted to go with the biggest clutch that I could -- and just so happens I have two of these 240mm setups. Both the van's 02G and the GLI's 02M use a hydraulic throw-out bearing -- but I didn't know they could be adjusted. I think my biggest concern was that the pressure plate itself may cause some interference -- it's a little high in the shoulder area. As for the flywheel, its pretty much bang-on between the two of them for diameter, depth, teeth, pitch, etc. Looks like I may need to dig a bit more on this.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

DO NOT crank the engine if it binds! You'll be risking cracking the bell housing!

A few years back as I was replacing the clutch in my Audi S6 I discovered that the Exidy S6 kit had the A6 pressure plate in it. Fortunately I have a habit of manually turning the engine a few complete revolutions by hand prior to starting it after each clutch replacement. When mine bound I resisted the temptation to start the engine, called it a day and went to bed. Some impatient folks were not as lucky and cracked their bell housings. 

The next day I took the transmission back out of the car, removed the pressure plate and measured its height up against the old original one. Called Rod at TPC (he was a great guy who ran a great parts place back then) and had a lengthy conversation with him. We concluded that Luk/Exidy had transposed the A6 and the S6 p/nos. He sent me the A6 plate which as expected turned out to be the correct size for the S6. Also raised hell with Exidy about their sloppiness and I think Exidy had since gotten its act straight.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*Throw-out Bearing*

Looking at the AFL transmission, there was a lot of grime and build up on it that I have been working away at. Much of it can be sanded off by hand -- but there was a good amount of brake fluid in the clutch housing area. It looks wet in the picture -- only because I've been trying to degrease it slowly and scrub it out. Usually this is a sign that the throwout bearing is leaking fluid -- and so while I'm there it should be replaced. The 02G transmissions differ from the early vans - by use of a hydraulic throw out bearing, as opposed to the hydraulic levered style. This is more in line with MK4 generation transmissions as well - but the mounting pattern of the throw out bearing seems unique to each.

*AFL Transmission*








_Notice throw-out bearing in place_

I pulled the bearing out and inspected it -- and it did show some evidence of leaking from the back. Because of this I decided to order a replacement - but the original design (which is the best quality IMHO) is no longer available. Some where along the line -- the design switched to a cast version of the housing (definitely cheaper to make with less parts). However, the best thing about the original bearing housing is that it can be completely disassembled and rebuilt with new seals. My problem is I can't find the seals anywhere - very hard. And even if I did find one the right size - its not necessarily properly rated for brake fluid and putting it back together without damaging a new seal also pretty tricky - the tolerances here are very exact.

*Original throw-out bearing*

















_Disassasmbled_









_*Quality - machined housing*_









_Even the bearing face was in very good shape._

So I ended up buying a cheap replacement - along with a bunch of other parts (that mostly don't fit  ). I've learned my lesson not buy this junk anymore, but I thought it was worth the little up-front investment to see these Chinese made replacement parts first hand. Logic kicked in - and I realized that I don't want this part to fail prematurely for a difference of $100 - that would be a waste of time/effort to pull the transmission off again. So I ponied up and bought the German-made LUK throw-out bearing. 

Side by side, the cheapo is very much a replica of the LUK - but the visible difference is that the LUK version has machined surfaces, where as the Chinese does not. Its actually not a big deal on the surfacse that I'm showing below - but if thats the same case on the inside, then I can only speculate that will lead to leaking fluid much faster.

*AFL Throw-out bearings*








_From L-R: Original OEM, Cheapo, LUK_









_Side by side -- castings are identical in dimension._

*Chinese version*








_Sorry for lousy picture_

*LUK machined surfaces*


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Awesome pix! Reads like a novel. Keep it coming.

A couple of notes.

1. In taking off the old oil, dirt and grime nothing beats a pressure washer. Cleaning this stuff by hand with chemicals is labour intensive, time consuming, health damaging and expensive material vise. I picked up a 2,500psi pressure washer off my local Craigslist for free because it had a broken leg and needed a carburetor cleaning. Now I can't imagine living w/o one.

2. All kinds of seals made of various materials can be sourced from McMaster. Read the seal dimensions off its front and take a look at their catalogue. You might find what you are looking for. I prefer to rebuild my original parts whenever I can: racks, pumps, calipers, control arms, axles etc. Replacement parts are mostly made in China nowadays, even by once reputable vendors.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> Awesome pix! Reads like a novel. Keep it coming.
> 
> A couple of notes.
> 
> ...


Great idea on the pressure washer - I can easily justify having one around the garage. :thumbup: I would have preferred to rebuild this - not just because its' cheaper, but also because I want to maintain it on subsequent clutch services (thinking long term). 

And, yes I searched religously for that seal for a couple of weeks before caving in and buying the cheapo for insurance. I've contacted the INA reps here locally and none of them can find it. There are some that are very close, but not rated for brake fluid. 

For those interested, the numbers off the oil seal are: _03 16 A F-225 365 341/A INA GERMANY -1011_


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## djnibler (Aug 5, 2005)

Regarding cleaning up parts.... I actually take the combination approach of chemicals AND a pressure washer. I don't have to scrub much though. 

For aluminum, I use Eagle One Etching Mag Wheel Cleaner (it's an acid cleaning agent). I spray it on, then use thick rubber gloves and a kitchen scrubber brush to scrub. Doesn't take much scrubbing. Pressure wash off. Sometimes I have to repeat that one more time. Then I follow it up with some Simple Green Automotive Formula (blue in color) to neutralize any remaining acid from the etching cleaner and pressure wash that off. The aluminum glows and look nearly new after that treatment. Don't use it on a polished surface or it will stain. It's fine for rough castings like transmission case and intake manifolds etc. 

Before:





After:


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## B5.5 4EVER (Jun 11, 2009)

Can you take a picture of the connection between the bearing and the hard line? I think mine is missing a connector or something...


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Itsamoto said:


> For those interested, the numbers off the oil seal are: _03 16 A F-225 365 341/A INA GERMANY -1011_


Trying to make sense of these numbers. Typically manufacturers try to keep the numbers in the format D x d x H or close to it. INA is no exception:
http://medias.schaeffler.de/medias/en!hp.ec.br/G?#G
http://medias.schaeffler.de/medias/en!hp.ec.br/SD?#SD

Do you still have this old seal? I am curious to take a look at it. I always managed to find generic industry standard p/nos for seals and ball bearings in industrial catalogues for the fraction of the cost that Audi wanted. Sometimes the bearing was not even available separately like for example in the Allroad SAI pump. When mine started to squeal on cold winter mornings I replaced the two shaft bearings for like 4 bux total and didn't have to shell several hundred dollars for the new SAI pump.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

djnibler said:


> Regarding cleaning up parts.... I actually take the combination approach of chemicals AND a pressure washer. I don't have to scrub much though.
> 
> For aluminum, I use Eagle One Etching Mag Wheel Cleaner (it's an acid cleaning agent). I spray it on, then use thick rubber gloves and a kitchen scrubber brush to scrub. Doesn't take much scrubbing. Pressure wash off. Sometimes I have to repeat that one more time. Then I follow it up with some Simple Green Automotive Formula (blue in color) to neutralize any remaining acid from the etching cleaner and pressure wash that off. The aluminum glows and look nearly new after that treatment. Don't use it on a polished surface or it will stain. It's fine for rough castings like transmission case and intake manifolds etc.


Looks good indeed.

Last year as I was looking for ways to get rid of the horrible soft touch that tuned the whole interior of the Eurovan into tacky sh!t I came across a few rave reviews of LA Totally Awesome available in dollar stores for one buck. Gave it a try and was extremely impressed by it. After I got rid of the soft touch I began using it on pretty much anything and everything else. It cleans up greasy mess off aluminium castings and road grime and brake dust off alloy wheels really well. With the help of the pressure washer of course. And it's dirt cheap.

My wife has stopped buying Simple Green for the tile floor in the kitchen and the bathrooms and for the hardwood floor in the house and now uses LA Totally Awesome to clean the house. 

Yet another thing that I found to work really well besides the pressure washer is the McCulloch steam cleaner that I picked up from Craigslist when I needed to peel the old tint off the rear window in my S6. I found it to be also useful when pulling the item outside for pressure washing is not an option and you have to somehow degrease it inside the garage. When I pulled the engine and transmission out of my wife's Allroad I used it to clean up the engine bay.


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## jets (Oct 12, 2005)

Itsamoto said:


> I pulled the bearing out and inspected it -- and it did show some evidence of leaking from the back. Because of this I decided to order a replacement - but the original design (which is the best quality IMHO) is no longer available. Some where along the line -- the design switched to a cast version of the housing (definitely cheaper to make with less parts). However, the best thing about the original bearing housing is that it can be completely disassembled and rebuilt with new seals. My problem is I can't find the seals anywhere - very hard. And even if I did find one the right size - its not necessarily properly rated for brake fluid and putting it back together without damaging a new seal also pretty tricky - the tolerances here are very exact.
> Side by side, the cheapo is very much a replica of the LUK - but the visible difference is that the LUK version has machined surfaces, where as the Chinese does not. Its actually not a big deal on the surfacse that I'm showing below - but if thats the same case on the inside, then I can only speculate that will lead to leaking fluid much faster.


I have an 02G trans in my van & am enjoying your postings. Keep them coming.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

B5.5 4EVER said:


> Can you take a picture of the connection between the bearing and the hard line? I think mine is missing a connector or something...


Sorry Jack -- I know you were looking for this picture. Here is what I got from my kit for the hydraulic line. I put the throw-out bearing housing there as well to see the whole line (minus the master clutch cylinder).


*02G Clutch Hydraulic Lines*









Now from what I gather, looking at ETKA diagrams and what not -- it looks like I have an extra line included here (the long twisty line shown centre bottom). Otherwise, starting from the bottom right corner, going counter clockwise, the items are:

Pressure pipe 701721461E (goes from clutch master cylinder and passes through firewall) -- has the firewall pass grommet on it.

The top line shown here is actually an assembly of different parts as well.

There is an T connection housing(701721451A), that receives the first pressure pipe line. This T-junction also has bleed valve on it. Looking at ETKA -- this appears to be an optional fitting. From here a short run of pressure pipe (701721462A) connects into a black coupler (no part number) and then to a long pressure line with a flexible portion. This pressure pipe is a variation of part number 7D1721477D - -but which variation probably depends on your transaxle's code. That line then connects to a coupler - shown top left -- that connects the pressure line assembly to the clutch slave cylinder.


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## B5.5 4EVER (Jun 11, 2009)

Itsamoto said:


> Sorry Jack -- I know you were looking for this picture. Here is what I got from my kit for the hydraulic line. I put the throw-out bearing housing there as well to see the whole line (minus the master clutch cylinder).
> 
> 
> *02G Clutch Hydraulic Lines*
> ...


 Is there a part number on the coupler that connects the line to the clutch slave cylinder? I can't find it on the parts list...


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> Trying to make sense of these numbers. Typically manufacturers try to keep the numbers in the format D x d x H or close to it. INA is no exception:
> http://medias.schaeffler.de/medias/en!hp.ec.br/G?#G
> http://medias.schaeffler.de/medias/en!hp.ec.br/SD?#SD
> 
> Do you still have this old seal? I am curious to take a look at it. I always managed to find generic industry standard p/nos for seals and ball bearings in industrial catalogues for the fraction of the cost that Audi wanted. Sometimes the bearing was not even available separately like for example in the Allroad SAI pump. When mine started to squeal on cold winter mornings I replaced the two shaft bearings for like 4 bux total and didn't have to shell several hundred dollars for the new SAI pump.



Thanks KBATTPO --I like your approach to fixing things. You gotta dig. :thumbup: And BTW, you're much more help than the rep from Schaeffler - they can't even get as far a you did. 

So I did look at these catalog numbers, and using my best guess at the dimensions from measuring the shaft and the housing -- makes the seal 47x40x4. But like you pointed out -- its not close at all to what's written on the oil-seal. Perhaps the seal is a VW part number?

Here are the oil-seals I have been trying to get from the local reps:

Product: G40X47X4----
Product: SD40X47X4

The G series has metal reinforcement in it -- my original does not. As for the SD series, do you think I should be worried about it being brake fluid compatible?


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## B5.5 4EVER (Jun 11, 2009)

I found this, I think this is what I am missing...


02F 301 363A I don't see it on the list though...


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Itsamoto,

fist of all let me ask you a silly question as I have never dealt with hydraulically activated TO bearings: what exactly does this seal do? Or more precisely, what kind of medium is behind it?

If it's brake fluid then the sealing compound should be Esther resistant. But then again, no seal known to me is capable of withstanding several tons of pressure exerted by the large diameter/short traveling portion of the slave (in this case the TO bearing itself) of the miniature hydraulic press that the clutch system essentially is. 

If it's oil/friction lining material/dirt and the like then pretty much any compound will do; Viton is probably the best guaranteed catch all material.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

B5.5 4EVER said:


> I found this, I think this is what I am missing...
> 
> 
> 02F 301 363A I don't see it on the list though...


Nice! :thumbup: Good find - I'm ordering one! 

Mine was very crusty - I couldn't read a part number off it and ETKA doesn't have the right drawings for the 02G assembly -- it shows the older style slave cylinder.

EDIT: Here it is on the parts diagram - -item #19


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> Itsamoto,
> 
> fist of all let me ask you a silly question as I have never ever dealt with hydraulically activated TO bearings: what exactly does this seal do? Or more precisely, what kind of medium is behind it?
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure its used to seal in brake fluid -- its internal to the housing. 

Let me see I can explain the function better...

The bearing housing has 3 major components that form a chamber: the main housing, the back plate/guide sleeve, and the diaphragm (not sure what to call this, but its basically the component that moves when pressurized). There are two oil seals and one o-ring in the bearing housing.The O-ring seals the housing against the removable back plate/guide sleeve. Then damaged oil seal is at the top of the bearing housing (hard to see here assembled) -- it seals against the diaphragm. Then there a second oil-seal inside the diaphragm (which looks fine) that seals the diaphragm to the guide sleeve. 










The damaged seal has a very minute tear in it - I can't get a picture with my camera that can show it properly (but's it visible to the eye). From my dissection, the housing was passing fluid out around the diaphragm and into the area behind the bearing. I've cleaned the housing - but originally this was filled with residue.


----------



## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

These seals appear to be similar to the seals (essentially the O-rings with a square crossection) that sit in the grooves of brake calipers.


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Clutch woes -- need some advice.

Well I'm running up against a bit of wall with the clutch plans, and was hoping to get some sound advice from the forum. 

Basically, there are two different standards of input shaft spline on the VR6 transmissions and clutch discs must match -- these standards are 7/8" 28 tooth (sometimes called 22mm or 11/16"), and 15/16" 23 tooth (24mm). Seems that all 12v VR6s (including the Eurovan AFL transmission) are all 7/8"-28T -- while the 24v VR6 are 15/16"-23T. Interestingly though, the Eurovan is on a DMF, while all the other 12v are SMF - 24v is DMF.

The crux is that I've been hoping to use the dual mass flywheel and pressure plate that I have from the GLI -- they are in great condition and this would upgrade the clutch to a stout 240mm (vs 219mm spec). To use this setup requires a custom made 7/8"-28t clutch disc to match the transmission. So currently I have long-outstanding order with vendor (whom I will not name) for a custom disc - but I have some doubts that this is going to be delieverd and must consider other options. Delivery has gone from 2 weeks, then to 1 month and now we're at 2 months - with all sorts of BS as well.

So, here are the options as I see them... 

**1. Find another vendor capable of making the 240mm disc w/ 7/8" 28T spline*_

PRO: Upgrades to 240mm and retains using the DMF flywheel and pressure plate (of which I have 2 sets on hand).
CON: Custom order required ($$$). Still may not fit in the trans housing when all bolted up._ 

*2. Import spec AFL components: NEW 219mm clutch disc and NEW pressure plate *

PRO: Spec fit (for 12v)
CON: Items must be imported. Re-uses original flywheel (very rare). Possible issues dealing with higher output of 24v?

*3. Use a 12v VR6 Clutch kit: NEW SMF flywheel and pressure plate, NEW 228mm clutch disc*

PRO: Lots of choice, easily available and cheaper. Upgrades to 228mm
CON: SMF could induce wear on an already used and rare transmission. Possible issues dealing with higher output of 24v?


Thoughts and ideas?

**EDIT: DOES NOT FIT *:banghead:


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

All else being equal I'd go for the off the shelf factory option (3).

OTOH option 1 seems rather attractive as well. I am wondering if either Sachs or Luk have a 240mm 28T disk in their product line. Not necessarily VAG. Could be a Ford or a BMW part or something else.

Yet another option would be to build some kind of a Frankendisk: rivet the central hub of a 28-tooth disk to the friction plate of a 240mm disk. I vaguely remember reading in a Porsche(?) forum that somebody had successfully fabricated a 924(?) disk out of his old hub and some other perhaps even Japanese (Nissan-?) disk by rivetting the pieces together. Shouldn't be that difficult. Hell, back in the 1980s we used to reline Lada's clutch disks. Out of necessity of course. Spare car parts were scarce in the Soviet Union.


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## djnibler (Aug 5, 2005)

Can't offer much advice on which option to go with but if you need a custom one built, I'd highly suggest giving South Bend Clutch a call. http://www.southbendclutch.com/


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## B5.5 4EVER (Jun 11, 2009)

Itsamoto said:


> Clutch woes -- need some advice.
> 
> Well I'm running up against a bit of wall with the clutch plans, and was hoping to get some sound advice from the forum.
> 
> ...


From what I have researched LUK setup will fit both 140 and 204KM soI decided to go with a stock setup, problem is I have the clutch kit minus a new DMF which I can't buy separately so I am thinking of reusing the used one I got with my swap...LUK kit minus the DMF is available on Ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/281744247113?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


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## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

Do not for love or money re-use the DMF, especially if it's an OE part. Their failure can be reason behind a clutch demise in the first place...

Plenty of punters down under are replacing DMF with SMF (especially in TDI applications) when the time comes with little or no difference in driveline operation...


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Hey thanks for everyone's input and ideas - -it's really appreciated. :beer:

After reading up on some of the DMF failures -- I'm thinking the right way to go is with the 12v VR6 solid flywheel setup. Abundant, proven and easy to obtain -- the OEM setup is rumoured to be good for 300HP/300-Ft/lbs - so no worries there for the van's engine.

I liked the idea of the DMF protecting the transmission a bit more -- that seems like a legitimately good thing. However, it gets me thinking how the original DMF that came with this AFL transmission is anywhere from 15 to 19 years old. And I have also read that these (DMFs) are considered consumables (to be replaced alongside clutch discs and pressure plates). That puts the flywheel in the same category of parts that I don't want to risk failing and have to pull the transmission out of the way for -- its also (as B5.5 mentioned) pretty hard to find a new one.

I reinspected the two 240mm DMF flywheels that I have on hand -- and one is still good, the other is probably on its way out (a lot of play in the disc). Harder to tell on the AFL's 219mm DMF -- not much play there - -but that could also mean its seized up.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*Oil Leak*










Did I mention that Lucille's original engine was leaking oil from time to time? I could never pin point the leaks. A little oil doesn't get me all twisted up, I can tolerate it. Engine noise, leaks and internal condition -- were things that pointed to me that the engine needed some major attention or replacement. Just I was parting out the Jetta -- my failure to properly diagnose Lucille's oil leak caught up with me. Now in hindsight, I believe that I made the cardinal mistake of slowing adding more oil than was actually being consumed/losing -- trying to compensate for a slow leak and nurse some more time out of Lucille. Usually I would add about 1/4 of a quart, every couple of weeks -- but I think I misread a leak from the transmission and sump level, and added almost a full quart to the engine. This turned out to be a very dumb thing to do and caused a major oil leak that I thought was the end to the van's motor. 

When it happened, it was a very frigid winter day, where I had left the van running for about 20 minutes to warm up. Then after pulling away from the garage the dreaded low oil pressure light came on. Luckily I was able return back. Then I thought for sure that the head gasket must have blown - as the oil seepage was basically 3ft wide as it poured down. I parked Lucille until things thawed enough for me to look into the leak. Turns out - the oil leak was actually from a small point -- and oil leaked first into the lower engine cover (the big oil diaper as somebody else once described it) - and that created the illusion that the leak was actually much worse than it really was.

Here is what it was:








Plastic oil filter cover! Like all the plastic components in the engine bay -- these are brittle things.









It absolutely disintegrated on removal -- and luckily I had just acquired a spare filter cover and was able to get things together enough to get Lucille in the garage. Perhaps a billet oil filter cover is worth it?


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

With Lucille in the garage - I opened things up and saw that there was actually a lot of problems under the hood that were contributing to my oil leaks. From this picture you can see the power steering fluid reservoir is a mess (as is the pump) -- and there is oil all along the SAI pressure hose (running down the left side of the engine) from the leaky crank case breather hose.










Then there are some tell-tale signs of extra oil in the system (dipstick tube and the oil filler tube). :-[ In my defence, the front of the oil filler tube was black from the moment I owned her. I wiped it down after seeing on Cole's thread and seeing that his had a white stripe on it. 











The crankcase breather hose was riddled with cracks - but not enough to prevent oil from accumulating in the intake hose, and dribbling back to the MAF 
sensor (which was installed upside down!) and leaking out from there. Next time around, I cam going to reroute the breather hose to catch can and then back to the intake manifold.










The real big oil leak - the one that I had been chasing around actually wasn't from the engine, but rather the transmission's PNP switch (red arrow).


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Pulled Lucille's engine out to replace it with the low mileage BDF that I got from the Jetta. The most daunting thing is the wiring and miles of hoses in there. I can really understand why people like to "delete" things with these engines - if just to makes things more manageable. I can look forward to losing a couple of coolant hoses without the transmission cooler -- but I may go for more deletes (SAI, EGR) along the way. 

*Engine Removed*









*Brittle Plastic Hoses*








Things went ok -- I only wrecked a few things along the way. I damaged the passenger side motor mount (leaked fluid), a couple of terminal connections and breather hose that totally disintegrated. 

I took my time while removing the wiring harness and tried to label things along the way. The nice thing is the harness can all be disconnected and moved out of the way -- basically all to the drivers side. A lot of the labels have fallen off -- but I think the electrical actually is pretty straight forward to put back - because most of the connections are different or the length of the harness does not permit you to mix up certain plugs. We'll see. 

After that I then disconnected the air intake and the accessories -- alternator, AC compressor, power steering pump -- to leave the lines intact. Before putting the van up - I broke the main axles bolts free. Once everything was ready - I went back in and removed the drives shafts. Nice way to get to know the suspension (and see all the little things there that need to be fixed).

*Lucille's Engine & Trans out*









The biggest pain in removal was with the exhaust manifold -- that took me a whole day to get it off. When I pulled the engine from the Jetta -- everything came off easy. On the van - I tried everything I could - but it was very tough. There is one bolt the exhaust manifold that is impossible to work on as the manifold swings out over top of it and there is no room to get it off. I have no tool or ability to reach it properly. I tried cutting it off while in the van - but I just couldn't get to it. Eventually I got myself a long extension and layed under the van and loosened off the downpipes. It took some prying to get them to seperate off the manifold.

*Stubborn Exhaust Manifold *








_Notice the small bolt -- bottom side of the driver side exhaust manifold. Also, this side of the engine block was really ugly - bubbling paint, rust, another oil leak, etc. _

The fussy electrical connectors, brittle pipes and some hard to reach bolts are the worst of it -- really not that bad if you are taking the engine and transmission out together.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Itsamoto said:


> After reading up on some of the DMF failures -- I'm thinking the right way to go is with the 12v VR6 solid flywheel setup. Abundant, proven and easy to obtain -- the OEM setup is rumoured to be good for 300HP/300-Ft/lbs - so no worries there for the van's engine.
> 
> I liked the idea of the DMF protecting the transmission a bit more -- that seems like a legitimately good thing. However, it gets me thinking how the original DMF that came with this AFL transmission is anywhere from 15 to 19 years old. And I have also read that these (DMFs) are considered consumables (to be replaced alongside clutch discs and pressure plates). That puts the flywheel in the same category of parts that I don't want to risk failing and have to pull the transmission out of the way for -- its also (as B5.5 mentioned) pretty hard to find a new one.
> 
> I reinspected the two 240mm DMF flywheels that I have on hand -- and one is still good, the other is probably on its way out (a lot of play in the disc). Harder to tell on the AFL's 219mm DMF -- not much play there - -but that could also mean its seized up.


SMF should be OK if you baby the clutch as you should anyway (as all of us should - sez me to self in shame)

OTOH none of the DMF's in any of my cars have ever failed. Including the one in the wife's 11 y/o Allroad in which I had recently destroyed the clutch disk when I sidestepped the clutch @ 6,000rpms. The DMF in my 18 y/o MTM chipped S6 is fine as well. 

Then again a friend of mine was not so lucky as you can see in this video: http://forums.quattroworld.com/allroad/msgs/226394.phtml

All said and done the option #3 in your choices above does indeed appear to be the most sensible one.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Itsamoto said:


> Pulled Lucille's engine out to replace it with the low mileage BDF that I got from the Jetta. The most daunting thing is the wiring and miles of hoses in there. I can really understand why people like to "delete" things with these engines - if just to makes things more manageable. I can look forward to losing a couple of coolant hoses without the transmission cooler -- but I may go for more deletes (SAI, EGR) along the way.


That is a smart thing to do, but do keep in mind that you'll need to code out from the ECU the parts you delete. You'll need to do a lot of reading there: http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/

When I had the engine and the transmission out of the wife's Allroad for clutch replacement I used that opportunity to delete:
- SAI pump;
- both Kombi valves with hoses, and tapped and plugged their ports in the heads;
- N112;
- both EGT sensors, and plugged their ports in the downpipes;
- both post-cat OXS sensors, and plugged their ports in the main cats;
- still need to delete both pre-cats (gut them out from the downpipes);

I can't believe the amount of clutter I got rid of. Now I can actually access the top of the bell housing and both turbos. The best part is the next clutch replacement will not require pulling that monster engine out of the car. It now can be done by just dropping the transmission like in pretty much any regular car out there.



Itsamoto said:


> *Brittle Plastic Hoses*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can rebuild the breather hose with Si hoses off ebay for next to nothing. If you broke that NORMAQUICK V2 45° connector ring I might have a spare one for you. They are not sold separately (Norma only sells them to OEMs) but I recently scored a few from Michigan. Will be rebuilding my own spider hose soon.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> That is a smart thing to do, but do keep in mind that you'll need to code out from the ECU the parts you delete. You'll need to do a lot of reading there: http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/


Thanks -- that does look like a good resource, I will check it out. :beer:

As for the breather hose -- even though it was broken -- it still had done a job of oiling up in the intake pipe, throttle body, and the intake manifold. I'm thinking I will run a catch can off the valve cover, and then return it back to the manifold by T-fitting it with the EVAP purge line. The nice thing about the Eurovan manifold is that its all aluminum -- and the vacuum hose barbs can be pulled out, the hold tapped, and then replaced with nicer hose fittings. That is a huge bonus when compared to the all-plastic intake manifold on the BDF. :thumbup:


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Now I expected there to be some trial and error with this "build" -- as I'm trying out different parts and combinations -- however this one is pretty stupid on my part. 

After doing a dry fit of the 240mm BDF clutch -- this time mounted to the motor. It does not fit inside the bell housing. :banghead: 

My mistake was that I had previously test fitted the clutch by holding it up to the AFL and checking the clearance. It looked good, just as tight as the spec unit --- but I was just tilting the unit into the housing - not lining it up squarely. Turns out the AFL bell housing throat isn't a perfect circle -- instead it has a couple of small flat spots in it which become a show stopper. Visually the 240mm unit looked the same size as the 219mm spec clutch (but I should have measured it more carefully because it's actually about 4mm larger).

Guess I needn't get all hung up over that custom clutch disc that I will soon be throwing in the garbage. 



QUICK EDIT: Interestingly I did find a thread off the T4UK site whereby somebody talked about shaving the inside of the bell housing in order to make the 240mm fit. Looks like some late 2.5tdi T4s were equipped with the large 240mm DMF and have 23-tooth input shaft as well. So perhaps the 02G-DYA transmission model falls into this category.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*228mm SMF clutch test*









_Shown with 228mm SMF clutch assembly from 12v VR6
_

Successful test fit of the 228mm SMF from a 12v VR6. I picked up a new flywheel yesterday morning, and happened to have a used pressure plate and disc to complete the mock up. 
Everything spun nicely inside the housing. Now, I just need to do a little more work to determine if the starter pinion will throw out far enough as the starter ring on the SMF is closer to the block than two DMF's (which were spot on for distance). Might have to put the starter on a bench, juice it with 12v and measure the throw. 

IAT-USA.com have all the little parts needed to refurbish and convert Bosch starters.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Well my custom ordered clutch arrived today. :facepalm:

*Custom 240mm Clutch Disc w/ 7/8" 28T spline*










Fitment is pretty good on the flywheel -- although it would have to be used upside down. Seems that normally on these DMF, the long/tall side of the centre hub faces into the flywheel. 

*Custom Disc on 240mm DMF from BDF*









Now for your amusment, here is the fitment of the 240mm DMF against the AFL transmission. Looks like it could actually fit if I were to grind out a few mm the interior of the bell-housing. 

*240mm DMF against AFL*









Hmmm... Risk ultra-rare transmission inorder to clearance my custom disc investment? Hmmm...


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly*

With the low mileage BDF engine pulled from the Jetta, I turned around and traded the busted 02M transaxle for a second pooched BDF (for comparative/learning reasons). With those two BDF models, and now Lucille's AXK engine out -- I have three 24v VR6 to play with.  Each has their strengths and purpose. I like to refer to the them as: _The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly._

*The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly*








_From Left: Good BDF, Bad AXK from Lucille, Ugly BDF (junk parts)_

*The Good*
Code BDF, Mileage ~80k (131k km), documented synthetic oil history, original chains/guides.
Outstanding issues: Torn oil pan, leaky thermostat housing, blown/missing plug
Silver lining: Pristine oil condition
Summary: _Enthusiast owned and pampered. _

*The Bad*
Code AXK/AMV?, Mileage 250k (~400k km), undocumented oil history, second set of chains/guides with 140k miles of wear.
Outstanding issues: Oil sludge throughout. 
Silver lining: Possible back up engine after a thorough cleaning/rebuild.
Summary:_ A well traveled engine -- but not as well cared for as it could have been._

*The Ugly*
Code BDF, Mileage ~108k (175k km), undocumented oil history
Outstanding issues: Blown block, thrown rod, bent valves, broken lifter, etc. 
Silver lining: Aluminum water pipe!
Summary: _Tuner owned/serviced - turbo'd and driven hard till the day she died._


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly II*

In pictures:

*The Good BDF*









_Condition when pulled. Shown with 240mm DMF._









_After cleaning up coolant leak mess/crud_









_Oil pan tear/hole_









_Showing missing/blown plug along top/back of engine. _









_Level of oil residue on cam/chain area._



*The Bad AXK*









_Evidence of coolant leak mess/crud_









_Block condition - lots of peeling paint/rust on backside. Excessive heat/Moisture prone area?_









_Level of oil residue on cam/chain area._



*The Ugly BDF*









Aluminum crack pipe!









Exhaust headers -- is this what happens when they run super hot?









Blown block. 









_Level of oil residue on cam/chain area._


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly III (Oil System Components)*

The difference in oil residue and condition is quite noticeable between the good BDF and Lucille's original AXF. I'm taking notes on this, and thought it might be interesting to share the findings from the 3 engines. If anything, it serves as good example of synthetic versus conventional oil.

*Valve train/Cylinder head*









Good BDF









Bad AXF









Ugly BDF

*Crankcase*









Good BDF









Bad AXF

*Valve Cover*








From L-R: _Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF_

Here's a close up of the important detail -- found in the oil vapour filter mesh. Note that the filter on the AXF was so clogged and coked up that I had to adjust the exposure to get any sort of comparison.









_Good BDF _









_Bad AXF_

*Lower Chain Tensioner*









_Good BDF _









_Bad AXF_

*Timing Chain Cover*









From L-R: _Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF_


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Awesome meticulous comparison work.

In the age of synthetics mineral oil should not be used in modern cars. Now imagine what these would look like if these were turbocharged engines.

Plz tell me more about the clutch disk. Is it a love child of a 28 tooth hub and a 240mm disk? If yes, which cars those parts came from?


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> Awesome meticulous comparison work.
> 
> In the age of synthetics mineral oil should not be used in modern cars. Now imagine what these would look like if these were turbocharged engines.
> 
> Plz tell me more about the clutch disk. Is it a love child of a 28 tooth hub and a 24mm disk? If yes, which cars those parts came from?


Thanks - I have some more timing component comparison stuff to share.

This is the custom clutch disk I ordered -- not sure how the parts were sourced but I was told that this company is basically an "all-american" clutch factory. I'm certain some of it must be their own parts with some machining too. It looks, as you had suggested -- that they took a 240mm disc and riveted on a hub with a 7/8" 28T spline. The hub has a lot of wear or it what looks the scraping/gauging around the spline -- so possibly a second-hand hub was used?


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

It appears that they have done exactly that. The metal disk appears to be cut out of ordinary 1/8" flat steel stock. Then a used hub and a new friction ring were riveted to this steel disk. Simple yet effective. A DMFW is mandatory because this disk lacks damping springs. 

If you manage to shave the bell housing for clearance this will be one awesome clutch setup. Another possibility would be to shim the bell housing with a spacer like for example the one that B5S4 and the C5AR use for mating the 2.7T engine to the 01E transmission (01E-103-551-C):


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> It appears that they have done exactly that. The metal disk appears to be cut out of ordinary 1/8" flat steel stock. Then a used hub and a new friction ring were riveted to this steel disk. Simple yet effective. A DMFW is mandatory because this disk lacks damping springs.
> 
> If you manage to shave the bell housing for clearance this will be one awesome clutch setup. Another possibility would be to shim the bell housing with a spacer like for example the one that B5S4 and the C5AR use for mating the 2.7T engine to the 01E transmission (01E-103-551-C):


I think I'm too chicken to grind it out. _If_ I were going to enlarge it, I'd probably resort to pulling the bell housing off and get it done via CNC. I'm already weeks behind my scheduled finished date -- so it might have to wait until the next time.

I keep looking at the suspension - and its crusty enough that I just want to pull it all out and get it like new while the engine is out. What's another delay at this point?


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

I am wondering why the person who made this clutch disk used 8 beefy steel rivets to secure the hub to the steel intermediate plate yet somehow decided to use only 6 smaller rivets of uncertain presumably weaker material to connect the intermediate disk to the outer friction disk. I would expect the opposite since torque = force x leverage or at least the same type of fastening. These 6 small rivets will be subjected to quite a bit of shear force.


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## bigfatgeek (Feb 5, 2005)

Don't void your warranty!



Kidding, great work. Keep the posts coming. :beer:


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> I am wondering why the person who made this clutch disk used 8 beefy steel rivets to secure the hub to the steel intermediate plate yet somehow decided to use only 6 smaller rivets of uncertain presumably weaker material to connect the intermediate disk to the outer friction disk. I would expect the opposite since torque = force x leverage or at least the same type of fastening. These 6 small rivets will be subjected to quite a bit of shear force.


Yes I don't know -- I didn't notice that until you mentioned it. It does look like a weak point -- but all the rivets (other than the one as the hub) are the same size. 

*Custom Disc on 240mm DMF from BDF*









Oh well...


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

bigfatgeek said:


> Don't void your warranty!
> 
> Kidding, great work. Keep the posts coming. :beer:


Thanks BFG. :beer:


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*Oil System Components*

Lucille's oil system components were totally coated in sludge and coke -- I've owned her for 20k miles of pure synthetic oil changed every 7k. Evidently, the idea that running synthetic can help clean sludge out is not evident here. 

More comparison pictures....

*Oil Pan and Pump*









From L-R: _Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF_









_Good BDF: Note the crack/hole in the pan (bottom right) and aluminum chips (~centre)._









_Bad AXF_









_Ugly BDF: Looks good in comparison._









_Ugly BDF: Metal fragments!_

*Oil Pump*









_Good BDF_

This also nicely shows the difference in reach between the BDF and AXF oil pumps. FYI: there is a 3rd, shallower pump style used on some 3.2 VR6 -- about 0.75" shallower than the BDF's. 









_Bad AXF_









_Ugly BDF_









_Ugly BDF -- Crunch!_


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*Oil System Component Cleaning*

As coked and sludged up as Lucille's engine was -- it also meant a lot of part cleaning needed to take place before reassembly. There was no way that I wanted any part of that mess to be transferred - so everything had to be cleaned: valve cover, oil pan, oil sump pump, timing chain covers, etc. If it was coming off the block or getting transferred to the good BDF - it was cleaned as best as I could.

Without a parts washer or decent sandblasting setup (or a good power washer as previously suggested) -- I basically used sand paper, scotch pads, and an assortment of small brushes in combination with vinegar, soapy water, degreaser, mineral spirits, and even Easy-Off oven cleaner. At one point I used a siphon fed air gun to soda blast some off some parts - which works ok but makes a huge white cloud that scares the neighbours.

*AXK Oil Pump Housing*








_Note the imprompto table: a Costco 3-step ladder that I carry in the van for reaching the roof. _  

*Oil Pump Components*








_Lot of coke build-up was removed internally from suction and pressure tubes._

Other than the lower pump housing -- with the pickup tube -- all the other parts of the pump are the same as the BDF. The pump from the good BDF was comparitively in pristine (clean) condition -- and I intended to save time on the cleaning by just swapping the lower housings However, there is one bolt to these that really gave me the fits. The oil pump housing is held together by 5 bolts, one of which is located within a recessed part of the upper housing casting. On all three pumps - this recessed area was always clogged with oil -- and of course I stripped the bolt head off of the good clean pump. Very tricky to get at - so be careful if you're cleaning the oil pump.

*Oil Pump Recessed Bolt*








_Stripped bolt head on right side._

BTW -- Am I the only one who regularly strips 5mm hex bolts? Any other size of hex bolt and I am good to go. Maybe my collection of 5mm bits are done.

Oil pan cleaned too. You can see some of my cleaning tools - a tooth brush and an o-ring pick to get some of the really stubborn bits off. 

*AXK Oil Pan*


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*Crank Seals*

The other parts of the engine that I cleaned up - included the valve cover, timing covers and the small front crank cover. I sanded them down as best as possible - but decided to add some engine paint to them as they still looked slightly pitted (tiny black specs).

I also took the time to replace the front and rear crank seals. I have read some posts that suggest that unless the crank oil seals are leaking - that they can be reused. However - its also very difficult to get the oil seals to go back onto any shaft properly. New seals come with a plastic insert that is tapered at one end and lets you slide the seal on without it folding up on itself. Its not impossible to put on without it - but it helps to keep the insert tool - it will come in handy if the lower timing cover has to be removed. 

*Main Rear Seals*








_L-R: Old seal damaged in removal, new seal with insert_

*Front Crank and Lower Timing Covers*


















Now these are the opposite of how it used to be on Lucille - where they were sludge-black on inside and aluminum on the outside.


----------



## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

I love seeing parts coming clean like this. Plz tell me more about soda blasting at home. Once in a while I have a need to lightly sand blast something small yet I can't justify getting a real sandblast cabinet.

You might be right about rounding off the 5mm Allen bits. I have built my own short and long Allen bit sets out of some Bondhus straight keys and quality US made sockets. Bondhus makes awesome tight tolerance bits, no comparison with the Craftsman garbage that I used to own before.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> I love seeing parts coming clean like this. Plz tell me more about soda blasting at home. Once in a while I have a need to lightly sand blast something small yet I can't justify getting a real sandblast cabinet.
> 
> You might be right about rounding off the 5mm Allen bits. I have built my own short and long Allen bit sets out of some Bondhus straight keys and quality US made sockets. Bondhus makes awesome tight tolerance bits, no comparison with the Craftsman garbage that I used to own before.


Yes I've learned the hard way that good tools make a difference -- although sometimes I am guilty of looking for the cheapest solution/tool for the job. 

For the soda blasting -- I picked up one of these cheap siphon fed guns and a couple of large boxes of baking soda. I paired this with my small Makita compressor (2.5 gallon tank).










It works ok -- certainly took some aluminum pieces down to "like new" finish. -- but as with air tools a bigger and better compressor would have allowed more sustained blasting and faster work. The baking soda seems to gum up and harden in moisture, so without a decent line drier you will need to clean the gun and the pick-up hose out frequently. Also if parts are a bit oily, it can form a gum together. The fun part is rinsing off the parts with vinegar and watching the reaction -- always interesting. 

Oh yeah - it also makes a big white-cloud so wear your favourite PPE while you're at it.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

I have the same wimpy pancake compressor only mine was made by DeWalt. Could you possibly snap a picture of the assembled soda blaster when you get a chance?


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> I have the same wimpy pancake compressor only mine was made by DeWalt. Could you possibly snap a picture of the assembled soda blaster when you get a chance?


Sorry KBATTPO -- I haven't taken a picture of this yet, but its pretty straight forward and my set up was very ghetto. If you look at the picture, the aluminum pick up tube goes into your bucket/reservoir of baking soda (in my case I just bought a 2lb box of generic baking soda), and then you can cut the hose to whatever length (shorter is better) and it attaches the pick up tube to the air-gun (down stream of the air supply). Then your pressurized air connects through the handle and viola -- you're soda blasting! Not ideal by any means - _if I had 240v in my garage, I would opt for big compressor and cabinet._

_Ghetto-blaster_ :laugh:


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*Starter-mania*

So in the pursuit of getting the VR6 single mass flywheel to work, I spent some time messing with the starter. My AFL kit came with a starter, but it doesn't have the right throw to reach the SMF flywheels' starter ring. The offset of the starter rings is different between SMF and DMF - with SMF's being approximately 10mm further inset. So, with just a dry fit, the AFL's starter would only allow for a couple of mm of pinion engagement -- and that's a recipe for having to open things up again. So instead, I went to the junk yard and pulled a VR6 starter off a 2001 12v-VR6 Jetta (uses the same SMF as what I'm toying with). These are pretty easy to work on and the parts are largely interchangeable with like models -- which the AFL's is. :thumbup: 

Not knowing much about starters before I started working on this -- one of the most useful things videos I watched was on a breakdown of changing the brushes on a bosch starter. Excellent video -- and directly applicable to us EV owners.

LINK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJM2veUNBc0

*Starters*








From L-R: _Lucille's 01P starter, 02G-AFL starter, 02J starter_

Looking at this pic, I took Lucille's starter and practiced the disassembly months ago. I sanded down and repainted the case, which is why it looks in much better condition (although it was just as ugly as the others). Some 100-grit sand paper and a spray can of Rustoleum really do wonders for these. 

Now for those who watched the video link, here's the great thing about these starters they are Bosch 110 and 125 series. Just like in the video, I had to sand down the crud to see properly that Lucille's original is a 110 series, and that the 02G and 02J starters were 125 series. Between the 110 and the 125 series, the brushes, brush holder and the top cap with bushing are all interchangeable. The internal armature and the housing are not.

*Part numbers*








L-R: 01P's 110 Series, 02G's 125 series (VW #02B911023D) , 02J's 125 series (VW# 02A911023S)

EDIT: _Incorrectly listed junkyard starter as from an 02M -- should be an 02J transmission._


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*Starter-mania II*

So the idea to create a Frankenstein starter from the available parts - mostly the parts from the two 125 series starters. Combining the longer starter pinion from the 02J starter and the bracket from the 02G-AFL -- is the goal.

*02G Starter Drive*








10-T, CCW, 16-SPL, 11mm ID, 28mm Gear OD, 81mm L

*02G Starter Bracket*








_I haven't dug far enough to know if this starter bracket is the same for all the T4's with 02G transmissions._ 

EDIT: The bosch serial number for this bracket is well worn -- but looks like 005-82?-?65. ETKA does not break down to this part number.

*02J Starter Pinion*








9-T, CCW, 16-SPL, 11mm ID, 25.7mm Gear OD, 90mm L

*02J Starter Bracket*









So the part numbers share in the previous post are for the entire starter assembly - but breaking the starer apart reveals component sub assemblies that can be ordered. So the starter driver for the 02G is actually Bosch 1-006-209-648, and the starter drive for the 02J's is 1-006-209-643. I had painstakingly measured these with my inferior tools and then once I google the part numbers found all the specs. :thumbup:

*02J Starter Solenoid*









One other thing that I really liked about the junk yard 02J starter -- was that the terminals on the starter solenoid were much better protected from corrosion. The car I pulled it from had been sitting outside - exposed to the elements - and looking rough. However, the solenoid terminals have some covering to them and looked good -- much better than Lucille's original 01P starter that got bit by the corrosion bug and started to fail. Semi-interestingly, the other Eurovan starters and solenoids are all stamped as Bosch-Germany (makes sense as all T4s come from Hannover) -- where as this 02J starter is from Pueblo and the starter is marked as Bosch-Mexico with the solenoid unmarked. Still, I like that it's protected the small spade connector with housings, as that was the main culprit when Lucille's starter failed. _Could be a nice little upgrade so I kept the terminal plug._ :thumbup:

EDIT: _Incorrectly listed junkyard starter as from an 02M -- should be an 02J transmission._


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Besides lubricating the Bendix gear and its shaft it is always a good idea to sand the anchor plate and the contacts of the solenoid if you manage to take it apart. Those are always burnt pretty badly.


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*Starter-Mania III*









_L-R: 02J starter parts, 02G starter parts, 01P starter parts. The key part in this picture is the 02G starter mounting bracket -- shown centre bottom_


So the next step is to take it all apart. Now I had already disassembled Lucille's' starter - before watching the Westronics video (that I posted a link to in a previous post) -- and so I pulled the brush holder off of the commutator before realizing what a pain in the arse it is to put them back in. Each brush is held in place by a spring that keeps it tensioned to the commutator -- so it can be tricky to reassemble. Knowing that (and having watched the Westronics vid) -- I knew better the second and third time around to leave the brush box on! 

The big pain with taking these apart is the starter solenoid bolts -- some were held with red thread locker. Both the 125 series starter used a phillips head, and I stripped all of them and ended up having to extract/drill them all out.  The single 110 series (from Lucille's 01P) used torx t-20/25 -- and came out just fine.  

Although the brush boxes are compatible from the 110 and 125 series of starters -- the armatures are different. The 110 series is longer - longer armature, longer case. So really the only parts in play from the 01P starter are the brushes, and the case cap (w/bushing). The brushes from the 01P were actually in very good shape (almost new) - which makes me think Lucille may have had her starter rebuilt -- although the _genuine-bosch parts_ sticker on the solenoid is also a clue. 

*01P Starter Brushes*








_Brushes are loose, but in excellent shape - probably within 80-90% of new size.
_

*02G Starter Brushes*








_Brushes need replacement. 3 brushes with 50% left, one with less than 25%._ Notice, gap in brush holder showing spring.

*02J Starter Brushes *








_Brushes are very good shape - perhaps 75% of new. Springs are tight - noticeably much less brush wear than the 02G._


And this is main reason I went the junk yard - to retrieve this starter drive pinion - used on manual 12v VR6s (which use a 228m clutch on a SMF). This is 9mm longer than the drive pinion on the 02G.

*02M Starter Drive*








_Bosch PN# 1-006-209-643_
Specs: 9-T, CCW, 16-SPL, 11mm ID, 25.7mm Gear OD, 90mm L

Note, that it seems entirely possible to pull these drives ends off of the helical shaft (which is not a part of the drive assembly). The end of the drive shaft has a removable cap, under which a retaining clip holds the drive onto the helical shaft. It's a little more work that I need to do -- I can leave it together and swap all the parts as I am going from like starter models (125 to 125 series). If somebody were going from the 110 series to the 125, then I would need to pull the drive off as the armatures' drive pinion and its subsequent gearing are different between these two series of starters (not to mention that the number of splines on the helical shaft can be different too). 

*02G Starter Drive*








_Bosch PN# 1-006-209-648_
Specs: 10-T, CCW, 16-SPL, 11mm ID, 28mm Gear OD, 81mm L


With that in hand, I cleaned up the other internal components and assembled the rest with the pick of the litter between like components. The starter housing/case was sanded down and painted. One worthy note on this is that both the 125 starter housing had a lot of buildup and corrosion on the inside. There is a small opening along the top -- opposite to where the brush holder wiring exits -- that allows crud and moisture into the housing. So, I will need to future proof this with some sort of plug.

*125 Series Starter interior corrosion*









EDIT: _Incorrectly listed junkyard starter as from an 02M -- should be an 02J transmission._


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> Besides lubricating the Bendix gear and its shaft it is always a good idea to sand the anchor plate and the contacts of the solenoid if you manage to take it apart. Those are always burnt pretty badly.


Good advice - thank you. :thumbup:

I haven't figured out how to get the solenoid cap off -- I would like to. I have seen some examples where the solenoid cap is visibly screwed on - but haven't figured that out yet for these.


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*Starter-Mania IV*

_Behold the Frankenstien starter! IT'S ALIVE!_










For those keeping score I used the following components in creating this hideous creation. And yes, even parts from the 01P got used.

From the 02G:

Starter mounting bracket
Starter drive shaft bearing
Solenoid to drive lift arm and rubber seal
Armature Case

From the 02J:

Starter Armature
Brushes and holder
Drive Pinion Assembly
Unmarked starter solenoid

From the 01P: 

Case top with bearing (I was too lazy to re paint another of these)
Solenoid mounting fasteners T-20/25 (only ones not stripped or drilled)
Case mounting bolts (a mistake as you can see in the picture, they are a tad too long) 


EDIT: _Incorrectly listed junkyard starter as from an 02M -- should be an 02J transmission._


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## B5.5 4EVER (Jun 11, 2009)

Itsamoto said:


> _Behold the Frankenstien starter! IT'S ALIVE!_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So the original AFL starter has 10 teeth and the one you built only has 9? Would that work?


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

B5.5 4EVER said:


> So the original AFL starter has 10 teeth and the one you built only has 9? Would that work?


Still figuring it out -- but things look promising. Basically, it will work if I shim it (currently too deep), but I want a more complete/elegant solution. Remember, this franken-starter is to work with the VR6 SMF - _not the AFL's DMF that came in my kit_ -- although both flywheels are 132 teeth, and approximately the same diameter give or take a few mm.

Its almost getting to the point where I should probably just forget about trying to upgrade the clutch, but I will carry on tinkering for a bit more because it feels close.


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*Starter-Mania V*

Well I'm chalking up some of this experience to learning about fitting a starter. Not everything worked as smooth as I was hoping, but the franken-starter was a necessary step. Ideally the starter drives would have worked as planned -- but will show the oversight that has got me a bit stumped and looking at what options (other than shimming) are available.

*Franken-starter mounted to 02G-AFL*








_Franken-starter too deep_

At this depth, the starter pinion will stay engaged with the starter ring (which spans 32-42mm off the block) with engine running. :banghead: At this depth the pinion will also be bottoming out on the bell-housing -- although I'm not sure if this is a problem or not. _Staying engaged is a big problem though -- and that won't do at all. _

*Franken-starter*








_Franken-starter lays defeated on a paper towel_


So the premise behind the Franken-starter was to make up the ~10mm inward shift in flywheel starter ring depth on the SMF. And I thought I had found the perfect solution in using the 02J starter...

Here is some of what it had going for it:


Same Bosch starter model (125) as the 02G 
Pinion gear would mate properly with the flywheel (both for 12v Vr6)
Pinion gear is longer -- 90mm vs the 81mm of the original driver pinion

At least on paper it seems like a winner, right?

Even when lining both starters up before taking everything apart -- the depth of retracted pinion looked to only be about 1-2mm longer with the 02J -- perfectly acceptable.Well what I did not calculate was that the starter mounting brackets were different sizes.

*Starter Comparison*








_L-R: 02G Starter, 02J Starter_

So by the tape, what made the difference:


*02G starter:*
Armature Case size: ~160mm
Bracket height: 34mm
Retracted Pinion Depth (from mounting surface): ~53mm
Throw: ~+10-12mm
Mounting height (02G): 101mm

*02J starter:*
Armature Case size: ~160mm
Bracket height: 44mm
Retracted Pinion Depth (from mounting surface): ~55mm 
Throw: ~+10-12mm
Mounting height (02A): 97.5mm​
So factoring in the 10mm difference in bracket mounting height, and the difference in mounting heights between the 02G and 02A (pressuming 02J is same), then the Franken-starter pinion would have had a net migration of being 13.5mm closer to the starter ring than it would do so if mounted to an 02A/02J transmission.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

So, you have decided to go with the SMFW + off the shelf 228mm disk because it fits inside the existing bell housing but now need to build a Frankenstarter of sorts whose bendix is capable of retracting further in order to engage the teeth on the flywheel.

I am wondering if shimming the bell housing or machining it for clearance for the DMFW + custom 240mm disk that you already have thus avoiding having to build a one-off starter is easier to accomplish...


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> So, you have decided to go with the SMFW + off the shelf 228mm disk because it fits inside the existing bell housing but now need to build a Frankenstarter of sorts whose bendix is capable of retracting further in order to engage the teeth on the flywheel.
> 
> I am wondering if shimming the bell housing or machining it for clearance for the DMFW + custom 240mm disk that you already have thus avoiding having to build a one-off starter is easier to accomplish...



I haven't done something like this before - but its these little bumps in road that I can learn from. Knowing what I know now about the starter -- even if I went to the 240mm, I think I would need to mess with the stater's lateral position or fit a smaller diameter pinion.


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*Starter Mania Success!*

Well finally some success with the fitting the starter -- and the answer was there all along. I must like to do things the hard way. 

After searching for a different, and more suitable starter drive - I found a good candidate: _Bosch 1-006-209-657_ -- which is listed as a 9T, CCW, 16sp, 11mm ID, 25.5mm Gear OD, 83mm L. This is 2mm longer than the stock 02G-AFL drive that came with my kit, and 7mm shorter than the 02J-starter drive. Theoretically, this would allow the starter pinion to engage close to (if not) 100% of the starter ring. Good to know. :thumbup: And searching for these pinion drives - Bosch doesn't make it easy - its all the starter parts suppliers (who are making knock-off parts) that have categorized and sorted everything. 

Then researching starter shimming -- which seems much more common on GM's -- I read lots of opinion that the drive pinion really only needs to engage 66-75% of the flyhweel ring to work without damaging itself. And I thought, _hey I can do that with original starter. _So, with that in mind I went ahead and reverted the Franken-starter back to the original shorter pinion, bolted it up and applied 12v. Whats the worst that could happen, some nasty pinion mashing? Instead, it was pure butter. I had to double check to see if the crank was rotating is was so quite! 

So as the very least, I learned something about starters, got some almost new brushes in place, and nicer starter solenoid out of the deal. Phew.


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*Timing Chain Components*

For those that haven't seen this already -- here is the content on the timing chain comparison that I did for the 3 24v-Vr6 engines.

Picked up some new, OEM timing chain guides from my local dealership. After looking at online suppliers -- this worked out to be about the same price for the 5 components when I factored in shipping, duty and exchange rates. I'm not exactly thrilled to spend approximately $200 CDN for what amounts to 5 pieces of plastic (OEM chains would have been another $125-150 CDN).  

*New Parts*


















In the comparison of the timing guides - all showed chain contact wear - channels/grooves in the plastic. With the guides from the good BDF - the channels are usually visible, tight/straight, but barely/faintly perceptable by touch. Lucille's (AXF) upper guides were always the worst condition - grooves showed a lot of lateral play and wear on guide - making the depth of groove hard to perceive. The AXF's lower guides were generally in better shape -- deep grooves but straight. The other garbage BDF's guides were almost always nice and straight, with deep pronounced grooves. I tried to use my callipers to get some more empirical data, but it's not the right tool. 

*Chains*








From Top-Bottom: _Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF_

Chains -- by my eyeball and comparison were all very much the same length. I used a calliper in spots (such as the space between pins) and the results were consistently even on all the chains. One interesting note here -- is you can see that the upper chains from both the BDFs have some coloured links in them (to help count 16 rollers?) -- where as the AXF does not. I'm trying to determine if Lucille's had the chains done at all -- this could be a clue . Has anybody else had a coloured chain link from their AXF? 

*Upper Right Guides*








From L-R: _New Guide, Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF_









From L-R: _New Guide, Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF_









From L-R: _Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF_

*Top Left Guide*








From L-R: _New Guide, Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF_

*Top Guide*








From L-R: _New Guide, Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF_

One thing I noticed with all this -- the disproportionate cost of the small upper guide. For it's size and complexity, it was considerably more expensive. I also noticed that this item is not always carried by the typical online suppliers -- and the reason why is that VW doesn't make this part or the cam phaser assembly. 

*Lower Tensioner/Guide*








From L-R: _New Guide, Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF_
Here you can see Lucille's AXF guide which snapped when I tried to loosen the the intermediate sprocket retaining bolt.

*Lower Chain Guide*








From L-R: _New Guide, Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF_

Here you can see the guide from the Good BDF snapped -- these are very brittle -- and three of the used guides had at least a hairline crack in them along the back. Sorry no decent picture of this.

*Intermediate Sprockets*








From L-R: _Good BDF, Bad AXF, Ugly BDF_









_Close up of Bad AXF sprocket wear._

All showed about the same amount of wear on the bigger sprocket that connects to the lower chain. This makes me think that the lower tensioner works very well -- steadily applying pressure to the chain. Where as the smaller sprocket from Lucille's AXF showed a lot of wear. The AXF also has the stiffest upper tensioner bolt -- which I think allowed more chain play -- and hence greater wear on the upper components.


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*Timing Chain Components II: Cam Phaser Module*

_Cam Phaser Module_ - you ask? Yes, if you noticed that cam phasers and the upper timing guide had a unique name stamped on to them: _Hydraulik Ring_. If you google it, eventually you will come to Hilite International's page here: http://www.hilite.com/products/engine-products/camphaser-modules.html  Good to know -- as this could help others find a replacement for the delicate cam phaser oil filter screen, or even a cheaper source for the upper chain guide.

Anyhow I pulled the cam phasers off of the engines -- I was just too curious about the screen condition. Something that probably everyone should at least check if they are deep into a timing chain job. Note, I also looked at the MK4 Jetta/Golf Bentley at this -- and the four bolts that hold the cam phaser housing on to the head are not stretch bolts. In some diagrams - they are referenced as "always replace" and in others there is no mention. The stretch bolts here are the ones that go through the cam phaser hub/sprocket and connect to the camshafts -- and then the large bolt that secures the intermediate sprockets.

Anyhow, the pictures...

*Good BDF*








Clean! 

*Bad AXF*


















Busted screen. I later found small pieces of the screen inside the control valves.

*Ugly BDF*








Filled with metal shards - but intact! :what:

Is this good evidence that sludge is what busts through the screen on these? That filter mesh is so fine -- I can imagine it reaching a point where it is so full of sludge that the incoming oil pressure just blows itself through the screen.

FWIW - I also compared the cam phaser sprockets. There was evidence of wear - but generally all very even and nothing like the AXF intermediate sprocket.


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*Timing Chain Components III*

So -- as I didn't see any evidence of change stretch or degradation between the 3 engines, I decided to just reuse my good BDF chains. I know it goes against conventional wisdom - but I don't always subscribe in replacing parts just because they are "in the kit". Gaskets, stretch bolts -- absolutely, but I have seen little evidence of chain wear and I'm not going to lose any sleep over reusing 80k mile chains here. That being said, there is something interesting to note here when I did the timing chain guide replacement.

On the BDF chains, there were some coloured links, one bright yellow and two that were much more subtle. Well I played a hunch and fiddled around a bit and ended up lining up the faded yellow chain links to the the cam phaser timing marks... and what do you know? -- exactly 16 roller chain pins between the timing marks (which is bang on per Bentley)!










And then, the bright yellow link -- that lines up perfectly with the notched mark on the intermediate sprocket.


----------



## kauboi (Nov 3, 2004)

Thank you so much for this awesome thread, I really like the comparison photos. Cant wait to see a 5 speed van running. Do you anticipate any problems with the ECU/programming going from auto to manual?


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Thanks. Yes I think comparison pictures are pretty useful too. Somebody else here posted a comparison video of their warn chain tensioner vs new -- and that was so helpful. It lets everyone see how parts wear and fail -- so having multiple engines makes it possible for me to share what I find.

From all that I've read into and researched with the swap -- apparently the ECU is reprogrammed through VAG-Com -- and its as simple as just changing a number. There are even some examples from the T4 site of people who have swapped and not reprogrammed.  I'm much more in the dark about re-wiring things - but I'll just take it one thing at a time.


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*BDF vs AXK Ancillary Components*

An important decision that was faced with the engine swap was whether or not to use Lucille's AXK ancillary/auxiliary components -- or to switch over to using the BDF components. The question really isn't about which to use (the BDF parts were in much better condition), but rather what pulley system to use as the components themselves are very similar, some identical or interchangeable save for the pulley system. Water pump is the same (save for pulley), AC compressors are different, PS pumps are interchangeable (save pulley), alternators are same (save for pulley) -- you get the picture.

Why such a big deal - why not just stick to AXK? Well at the time I was working through this I wasn't sure if I would be able to get the crank pulley removed from the BDF. Its really child's play for some - but not for me. The Bentley recommended way is to use the "vw tool 3406" -- or you can use the quick "start" method to breaker-bar the main 27mm bolt free (but that doesn't work for an engine on a stand). I'm too cheap to buy that tool -- so basically, there needs to be a 46mm angle-wrench to counter hold the dampener in order to loosen the bolt. I thought about getting a 46mm socket and then shaving it down enough for a through-hole and then just clamping with a big pipe wrench - but it probably wouldn't have held too easy (these crank pulley bolts are on really tight!). 

Here's a photo shamelessly linked to from Boraspec's VR6 build that shows the correct VW tool:

*VW TOOL 3406*









_In the end, I was able to swap the crank pulley and went with the AXK pulley system. I will share how I removed it on the next post -- but for now, the content below details some of the differences and plus/minuses between the engine aux parts that I was mulling over in the face of a dreaded crank pulley bolt._

_______________________________________________________________


The main difference between the pulley systems is one of pulley width (6 rib on BDF vs 7 rib AXF) and offset from the block.

Here you can (barely) see from Lucille's AXF, how much the crank pulley is offset from the block (there is about a 1cm difference between in comparison).

*Crank pulley offset comparison*








_Bad AXF_









_Good BDF_

That 1cm offset is maintained for just about all the pulleys -- save for the AC compressor (whose position is offset by the ancillary components bracket).

*Ancillary Brackets*








_L-R: BDF bracket, AXF bracket_

The AXF bracket stacks the aux components (alternator, ac compressor and power steering pump) in a more vertically compact way to accommodate the van's engine tilt. I'm not sure if using the BDF's bracket would be too big of a problem (for spacing) -- but it could leave the PS pump and hoses in a much lower, and much more exposed position. 

I'd like to move to the AXF bracket - but as this offsets the spacing of the aux components differently - it means a full pulley system conversion is also required. Staying with the BDF bracket also presents some interference to the intake manifold -- so some filing down is needed. On the BDF, each ancillary component connects to the bracket independent of each other. Where as with the AXF -- the alternator piggy-backs off of a mount that is added onto the AC compressor. 

Here's some alternator info that I've been looking at with Lucille. One of the advantages of staying with the BDF components, is that the alternator is equipped with a clutch pulley - as opposed to the standard pulley on the AXF's. Just from casual research, it seems the clutch pulley not only helps maintain the life of the alternator (reducing the harshness of speed changes) - but also quiets and smooths out belt vibrations. 

*Alternators*








_L-R: 120A BDF with clutch pulley, Upgraded 150A AXF with standard pulley_

I didn't realize Lucille already had an upgraded alternator until I searched the part-number. :thumbup: So the decision on alternator is really about which pulley system will be used. 

*Clutch Pulley*








_There is also a removable cover for these that keeps the inside nice and clean._

*Pulley Offset*








_Top-Bottom: AXF, BDF _

Offset and pulley size are still a factor here -- but if anybody is putting in a new alternator, I think finding a Eurovan compatible clutch pulley is a good idea. I have read lots of stories of alternator failure with the EV -- even Lucille is on (at least) her second alternator.

*Bosch 150A alternator*









One thing from the Bentley in regards to alternator sizing -- there is a fusible link in the engine bay that should be verified before upsizing over a 120A alternator. Seen here in this picture -- the 175A fuse on the far right.

*Alternator Fusible Link*










*Tensioners*








L-R: BDF tensioner, AXF tensioner

Another good thing of sticking with the AXF aux components -- is the belt tensioner. The offset and pulley size issue is also a factor here -- but the sheer spring size is much larger and that is somewhat reassuring as to the "heavier-duty" design of this compared to the BDF tensioner. Not sure if either are plagued with failures - but there are posts that suggest the BDF tensioner does fail after a while.


And here is the big difference between otherwise identicle AC compressors (save for pulley width) -- the AXF's AC compressor casing has a third mounting handle with an extension to piggy back the alternator. This is what helps to tightly pack the AXK's aux components together in the tilted engine scenario. And because the AC unit's pulley isn't offset 1cm (its offset is matched on ancilliary bracket) this AC compressor can be used in either AXK or BDF pulley setup.

*AXF AC Compressor*








_Top: special bracket for alternator attachment_
​


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*Crank Pulley Removal*

So how did I overcome the crank pulley hurdle with the engine conversion?

To remove the pulley, you need a 27mm socket (for the bolt) and a 46mm counter holding wrench. After researching and reading how painful it is to do with the engine out, I was really worried that this might be the show stopper for converting to the AXK ancillary components. Getting stuck with BDF pulleys wouldn't have been all that terrible - but still a compromise to the plan.

Rather than buy the special VW tool (3406) -- I searched for a 46mm offset wrench. _They aren't cheap or easy to find around here_. Cross searching though, it was interesting to find out that the Haldex/4-motion AWD filter wrench is 46mm -- a near perfect substitute for the DIY'er. Luck smiled on me again, and I managed to find a used one locally for $30 CDN. 

*Haldex Filter Wrench*









The only modification needed, was to grind out enough clearance for a 27mm socket.

*Wrench with Socket*









I was still a little skeptical if this would work with the engine on a stand. I tested out the amount of "effort" that would be needed to loosen the bolt on my garbage BDF -- and it wasn't too bad actually. _Socket w/Breaker bar + 4' cheater bar, Haldex wrench + 4' cheater bar = bolt off!_ 

With the "good" engines - I carefully made sure that the loosening forcers were as balanced as possible -- no sense in tipping over the engine at this point.

*Loosening the crank pulley*








_Good BDF_

As per the norm with Lucille's engine block - lots of paint peeling and rust on the block. 

*Lucille's AXK w/ crank pulley removed*









For those keeping score, this sealing plate/ crank cover is actually different between the BDF and AXK -- different part numbers : 021 103 153 vs 021 103 0153 A. The difference (as I can tell) is just to the prying tab locations.


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*Thermostat Housings*

One thing to pass along here, with each of three of the 24v engines on hand the thermostat housing exhibited signs of coolant leak -- the engines all were dirty and grimy right below the housing.










In looking at the housings closely, all of them exhibit signs of leaking or breaking down. Lucille was also sporting a metal impeller water pump -- which I believe was not stock, and thereby she's probably on here second thermostat housing as well! 

*Thermostat Housings*








_Housing from a BDF -- plastic flange is warping and beginning to separate. It's not visible in this picture, but there is gap there where coolant could swap out through._









_Second BDF housing -- flange has separated and broken off._









_Lucille's housing with dried-up coolant on the gasket._

These plastic components become very brittle over time -- makes the Eurowise cast housing pretty desirable. 










Although these are for 12v, they will mount to the 24v fine -- the known issue is that their extended inlet and outlets mean that they can interfere with MK4 shift linkage. A builder on Vortex is planning on using this on his R32 build -- welding up some AN fittings as well. 

As this is for 12v, it also has a 3rd sensor position, meaning it's possible to move the coolant temperature sensor from the rear coolant outlet line to the front/side outlet and clean up the engine bay a bit more.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*Aluminum water pipe*

Just about the only salvageable item from the garbage BDF that I acquired was the water pipe. I suppose an extra oil filter housing and after run coolant pump are ok - - but not sure it was worth that busted up transmission I traded away. At least the damaged block has allowed for me to mess around and test with the heavy fasteners, removing freeze plugs or whatever -- all with "no fear of damage". So I guess that was worth something.

*Aluminum Water Pipe*








_Cleaned out -- sanded and then equipped with new o-rings_

Evidently I don't really see how the plastic ones of these could fail before the thermostat housing - but I guess its plastic and can crack.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

A year ago the warped plastic thermostat housing in the wife's Allroad not only grounded this awesome snowmobile (variable suspension clearance + AWD + aggressive snow rubber + 6-speed manual transmission) in February in all that snow in the mid-Atlantic area; it also caused me to repeat 90% of the engine disassembly including the partial timing belt removal that I had gone through only a few months prior to that during the timing belt replacement. Replaced it with the all-metal housing off an older B5S4 that shares the same 2.7T engine and the problem went away but was I pissed at the VAG's nickel-and-diming at my expense!

This very moment the plastic thermostat housing in my own S6 is slowly weeping coolant. Will be replacing it with the all-metal housing from the earlier type-44 and C4 Audis. 

The fiber clip that holds the temperature sensor inside the housing in your picture had bent and became undone in my wife's Allroad sending the sensor up in the air like a projectile accompanied by a geyser of coolant. In my older S6 these clips are made out of metal and are reliable as a shovel. Curiously they have the same part number (032-121-142) as the later plastic ones. I bought a handful of metal ones off ebay and replaced each and every one I could find in both the Allroad and in the Eurovan.

The metal pipe with a metal petcock in the last picture looks different than in my bus. I am fairly certain that mine is plastic and I am absolutely sure that instead of the metal drain petcock mine has a wimpy plastic screw which I already have partially damaged. A mental note to self: gotta find me one of those metal pipes.

IMO plastic has no place in the cooling system. Over the years it will inevitably become brittle thus turning the vehicle into a ticking time bomb. A sudden coolant leak hundreds or thousands of miles away from home will surely ruin any vacation.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> A year ago the warped plastic thermostat housing in the wife's Allroad not only grounded this awesome snowmobile (variable suspension clearance + AWD + aggressive snow rubber + 6-speed manual transmission) in February in all that snow in the mid-Atlantic area; it also caused me to repeat 90% of the engine disassembly including the partial timing belt removal that I had gone through only a few months prior to that during the timing belt replacement. Replaced it with the all-metal housing off an older B5S4 that shares the same 2.7T engine and the problem went away but was I pissed at the VAG's nickel-and-diming at my expense!
> 
> This very moment the plastic thermostat housing in my own S6 is slowly weeping coolant. Will be replacing it with the all-metal housing from the earlier type-44 and C4 Audis.
> 
> ...


Awful bad luck with the Allroad -- nice to know that you have an option for a factory t-stat housing. On my next trip to the car-yard, I will be hunting around for the metal versions of those clips - I had no idea that they could break so easily - but it makes a lot of sense. I totally agree with your take on plastic in the cooling system - I worry that as it ages, it becomes too brittle to be reliable.

The aluminum water pipe I have is an after-market (looks like Gruvenparts is the mfg). If you are looking for you van, there are lots of options of suppliers there - search for VR6 aluminum crack pipe. Just be aware that they make a 12v and 24v versions that are slightly different in the inlet port position. Most of the resellers carrying the Eurowise metal t-stat housing also offer a package with an aluminum pipe - and this tends to save a few bucks. 

Now because the EV's engine is tilted, I don't think its a problem to run the 12v t-stat housing. In this application, the tilting of the EV engine is favourable as it moves the T-stat housing further away from any shift linkage parts. Thats one thing that I guess is critical to the van's transmission -- that the bell housing is clocked to: 1.) line up with the engine block; and 2.) to let the transaxle be "level" for linkage and the internal oil ways. 

Shown below is the t-stat housing with the metal clips - although those are not included in the kit.

*12v VR6 Aluminum T-stat housing *








_Image linked from Gruvenparts website: http://www.gruvenparts.com/cast-aluminum-12v-vr6-thermo-housing-assemblies/_


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## jets (Oct 12, 2005)

The only problem I have had with plastic in the engine bay was on a 2001 VW Polo where the thermostat housing had expanded in size where a plug is fitted. The hole is used when an auto is installed & mine was a manual. I replaced the O ring & it felt loose & still leaked. A new plug, still leaked. The housing was expensive as it couldn't be bought separately & included a new thermostat & temp. sensor. I finally stopped the leak by using silicone grease on the ring.
For the last 2 or 3 years I have got into the habit of opening the bonnet in the summer months when I park in the garage to reduce heat soak. On the peak of summer it probably reaches 70degrees C in there. I am hoping that long term this will help the plastic parts survive a bit longer.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Itsamoto said:


> The aluminum water pipe I have is an after-market (looks like Gruvenparts is the mfg). If you are looking for you van, there are lots of options of suppliers there - search for VR6 aluminum crack pipe. Just be aware that they make a 12v and 24v versions that are slightly different in the inlet port position. Most of the resellers carrying the Eurowise metal t-stat housing also offer a package with an aluminum pipe - and this tends to save a few bucks.


Duly noted, thanks! Will replace both the next time I have the cooling system drained.

The three metal clips in your last picture are the ones I was talking about. They are easy to find on ebay. I think mine came from a Jetta.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

jets said:


> The only problem I have had with plastic in the engine bay was on a 2001 VW Polo where the thermostat housing had expanded in size where a plug is fitted. The hole is used when an auto is installed & mine was a manual. I replaced the O ring & it felt loose & still leaked. A new plug, still leaked. The housing was expensive as it couldn't be bought separately & included a new thermostat & temp. sensor. I finally stopped the leak by using silicone grease on the ring.
> For the last 2 or 3 years I have got into the habit of opening the bonnet in the summer months when I park in the garage to reduce heat soak. On the peak of summer it probably reaches 70degrees C in there. I am hoping that long term this will help the plastic parts survive a bit longer.


Good advice on the silicone grease. :thumbup: 

I think I have some around for household plumbing -- but sounds like a good thing to add into a take-along toolkit as well.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> Duly noted, thanks! Will replace both the next time I have the cooling system drained.
> 
> The three metal clips in your last picture are the ones I was talking about. They are easy to find on ebay. I think mine came from a Jetta.


As much as I like the idea of the cast housing -- its a luxury item-- I'm going to have to stick with the plastic one for now to keep in budget. The cast version ends up being close to $300 CDN with exchange, duty and freight (no free shipping here). I look at that price and realize that I can buy a car (such as an 03 GLI) for just a couple of hundred more for that one engine part. 

Speaking of cheap cars, how's this for a missed opportunity... Last night I missed out on 03 EV GLS that somebody sold locally for less than $500 CDN. Blown transmission and some body damage on the drivers side - but still nice in the pictures. 20 minutes too late.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Itsamoto said:


> Speaking of cheap cars, how's this for a missed opportunity... Last night I missed out on 03 EV GLS that somebody sold locally for less than $500 CDN. Blown transmission and some body damage on the drivers side - but still nice in the pictures. 20 minutes too late.


Persistency pays off and another lucky find. After the buyer realized how much it would cost to repair the transmission - I was able to pick it up for a G! 2003 GLS, 128k miles - body damage, snafu'd electrical, and the trans won't go into 4th -- fun stuff. Don't tell Mrs.Itsamoto. 

PS -- this is a Canadian G -- so I'm stoked on this deal!


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*New Clutch Parts*

Received a LUK VR6 clutch kit (LUK 17036) for Lucille. Rockauto -- cost was about 1/3 of what a local trans shop would sell it to me for. I would buy it local (even though it costs more) -- if wasn't for such a flagrant mark up. I'm obviously not in a rush, so I bit on the shipping and wait time. 

*LUK 17036 KIT*


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## B5.5 4EVER (Jun 11, 2009)

Itsamoto said:


> Persistency pays off and another lucky find. After the buyer realized how much it would cost to repair the transmission - I was able to pick it up for a G! 2003 GLS, 128k miles - body damage, snafu'd electrical, and the trans won't go into 4th -- fun stuff. Don't tell Mrs.Itsamoto.
> 
> PS -- this is a Canadian G -- so I'm stoked on this deal!


Damn I smell another swap in the future....


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## B5.5 4EVER (Jun 11, 2009)

Itsamoto said:


> Received a LUK VR6 clutch kit (LUK 17036) for Lucille. Rockauto -- cost was about 1/3 of what a local trans shop would sell it to me for. I would buy it local (even though it costs more) -- if wasn't for such a flagrant mark up. I'm obviously not in a rush, so I bit on the shipping and wait time.
> 
> *LUK 17036 KIT*


So this is the 228mm one, where is the flywheel? Are you going single mass or dual?


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Judging by the sprung disk I'd say single.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Yes - I bought a new Sachs VR6 single mass flywheel and test fitted things with a used/worn VR6 disc and pressure plate that I had lying around. The used parts seemed pretty decent actually -- other than the disc spline being a bit loose.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

B5.5 4EVER said:


> Damn I smell another swap in the future....


Yes, I smell a few of these too.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

I thought so... 

For a moment I had my eyes on the fleet of those diesel T4s for sale but I am not in Canada so between the RI fees and the 2.8% importation duty and transportation expense it was too much trouble to get involved so I dismissed this rather tempting thought quickly. You, OTOH, being in Canada and all...


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> I thought so...
> 
> For a moment I had my eyes on the fleet of those diesel T4s for sale but I am not in Canada so between the RI fees and the 2.8% importation duty and transportation expense it was too much trouble to get involved so I dismissed this rather tempting thought quickly. You, OTOH, being in Canada and all...


LOL -- it was sort of tempting -- but sure to be a parking nightmare. 

Plus for me, it's on the opposite side of Canada -- so it would be a lot of hauling back and forth to bring them all here. 

But what I meant by that comment, is that the parts for these are starting to loosen up and become available -- and I'm sure there are others plotting their conversions.

Now, if I had it my way, I would take the transmission apart - get all the critical dimensional information and develop an adapter to make adapting something like an 02M a reality. Dreaming of "6spd with Haldex" - wouldn't that be a sweet option instead of rebuilding an automatic?


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Honestly -- so much of this would be a lot easier if I just stuck with the using the factory parts, instead of trying to make other things fit. 

Alright - -so I finally had a chance to put the new clutch setup on and I'm pretty happy with the setup. There are issues - things I had overlooked that I am working on. The whole thing has shadows of what I experienced with fitting the starter, where the starter ring placement changed going from DMF to SMF. Well, in this case the depth of the clutch assembles (flywheel, disc, pressure plate) are different as well - which means my concentric slave cylinder (CSC) throw-out bearing may not engage the clutch properly. The 02G's original DMF clutch setup is deeper, sitting at about 85mm when measured from the block to the top of the clutch plate diaphragm springs. The VR6 SMF setup, measures at about 69mm height. And there is also a difference in depth of the bell housing -- with the 02G-AFL being deeper by about 5-8mm. These are some of the factors at play here that I am coming to terms with.

Now my test fitment over the SMF-VR6 went really well. Everything fits nicely, except for the 6-8mm space between the 02G-AFL throwout bearing and the clutch pressure plate. 

*New VR6 Clutch *








_Mounted on Good BDF_

*VR6 Clutch Diaphragm Springs*








_Flat diaphragm springs._

Not sure why this is so flat -- perhaps it will gain height /angle once the pressure plate is torqued down? I assume that the flatter this is, the softer the pedal touch will be (less fulcrum to overcome)?

For a comparison, and to get the total depth measurement, I mounted up the 02G-AFL clutch components to Lucille's original (BAD AXG). This clutch assembly had a total height of about 85mm -- of which some may be attributable to the high-angle of the diaphragm springs. Now, are these steep pitched springs normal (making for a hard clutch pedal) - or is this a sign of warn clutch? This was actually so high that I couldn't test fit the transaxle over top of this without the CSC bearing compressing the diaphragm springs by about 5-8mm - which makes me think this is not right. Very difficult in the test scenario. 

*02G DMF Clutch*








Mounted to Good BDF

*02G DMF Clutch -- Close up*


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

One thing I'm not sure about is how much the throw out bearing should be engaged with the clutch pressure plate. LUK's literature mentions free play of 3-5mm -- however many other sources of diagrams and examples show the throw-out bearing being in constant contact with the pressure plate springs when the clutch is not engaged. Going by the example of test fitting on 02G DMF would have clearly required the throw out bearing to be in constant contact. Yet with the VR6-SMF setup, the throw out bearing is too far away -- and this may result in a very soft, or slipping clutch. For the time being I am aiming for 3-5mm of space between the throw out bearing and the diaphragm springs.

To close the gap, I first thought about using spacers or standoffs on the throw out bearing housing. Then I remembered some items that came off Lucille's good old automatic transmission -- the flex plate had a shim and washer that matched the crankshaft mounting pattern.

*Shim/Compensation Washer*








_PN 021105303C_

It turns out that there are a range of shims used on the VR6s, ranging from 0.4 to 2.4mm thick that I now know could be used to help dial in the bearing engagment. The only issue is that as it mounts behind the flywheel, so it takes a long time to put them on and off. If needed I'll order more (but pricey), or go the yard and look for VR6 automatics to open up. 

021105301 = 0.5mm washer 
021105303 = 0.4mm 
021105303A = 0.8mm
021105303B = 1.2mm
021105303C = 1.6mm
021105303D = 2.0mm
021105303E = 2.4mm​
So, to test I used both the shim (1.6mm thick) and the washer (0.5mm thick) combined to move the flywheel and clutch assembly closer to the throw out bearing. As a bonus, this should also improve the percentage of engagement of the starter gear pinion and ring. :thumbup:

The following picture I took with my phone -- I was able to get a decent shot inside the bell housing through the clutch bleeder opening. With a rough measure, I think I managed to get the free play spacing (distance between CSC bearing and pressure plate down to approximately 4-6mm.

*Bearing to Pressure Plate spacing*








_Shown: concentric slave cylinder bearing housing, to which the bearing face sits flush. _


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## VW_Enthu1 (Oct 23, 2004)

As an engineer, I have always had that insane naivete that I could figure out or understand _anything_. This post brings me back to reality regarding how much I _don't_ know. Nice work on piecing this together - I feel pretty stupid. :beer:


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

VW_Enthu1 said:


> As an engineer, I have always had that insane naivete that I could figure out or understand _anything_. This post brings me back to reality regarding how much I _don't_ know. Nice work on piecing this together - I feel pretty stupid. :beer:


LOL -- don't be so hard on yourself. I don't know any of this, I'm learning as I go -- and the outcome here is not guaranteed by any stretch. 

And sorry for all of you who thought this was going to be a "how to" thread.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Well a small milestone today... I pulled out most of the automatic transmission wiring and the gear selector. I was looking at doing it earlier, but always seem to find another thing that was bit more important at the moment. Funny how something as simple as a hole in the floor can feel like progress. 

*01P Wiring Harness and TCU*









After struggling with it for a while -- I pulled the transmission computer module first, which left lots of room to feed the harness through. It also helps to bend the wiring panel holder out of the way too. :laugh:

*Transmission Computer Cave*









Then everything can simply be disconnected - no need yet to rip anything out from the back of the wiring panel. 

What I haven't removed -- is this little bit of wiring from the automatic selector - it routes back the wiring panel under the carpet. The open connector is probably for for the shift lock solenoid -- but there is also a little "limit" switch here as well -- not sure what this is. Any ideas?

*Transmission selector wiring*


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Itsamoto said:


> The open connector is probably for for the shift lock solenoid


Correct. N110: 2002 => Common Systems =>Automatic Transmission, from December 2000 => page 5/5 (No.7/5)



Itsamoto said:


> -- but there is also a little "limit" switch here as well -- not sure what this is. Any ideas?


It's not the backup switch. I clearly see BRN/YEL (br/ge in the VW nomenclature) but what colour exactly is the second wire? BLU/GRY (bl/gr) or BLU/WHT (bl/ws)?


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> Correct. N110: 2002 => Common Systems =>Automatic Transmission, from December 2000 => page 5/5 (No.7/5)
> 
> 
> It's not the backup switch. I clearly see BRN/YEL (br/ge in the VW nomenclature) but what colour exactly is the second wire? BLU/GRY (bl/gr) or BLU/WHT (bl/ws)?


Thanks Igor :thumbup:

The wires look to be BLUE/GREY and the other is Brown (maybe Red). Which by my 2-volume Bentley -- should be the *kick down switch*? That can't be right -- isn't the kick down switch supposed to be under a pedal?


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

It does indeed look BLUE/GREY. So the other wire is pure BROWN, no stripe? As in chassis ground?


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> It does indeed look BLUE/GREY. So the other wire is pure BROWN, no stripe? As in chassis ground?


Yes I think its brown.  I'm Red-Green colour blind! 

Actually thumbing through my 2-volume bentley, there are some updated schematics included. I think, its actually a shift console light (also on Blue/Grey and Brown wiring) . :facepalm:

It really does look and feel like a switch.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

You are right, it's the L79 bulb on the same Bentley page that I have referenced above.

I missed it because I bought my van with this bulb already burnt and the red Si "condom" missing. Still, I should've known better because I modified this bulb holder to accommodate a super bright red LED instead of the original bulb.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Something of interest, here. I have read lots of threads where automatic transmission problems are sometimes treated with a new TCU. Whether or not that is truly necessary, I don't know. But looking at the cost of these rare items, the resemblance to the 01M transmission computer is uncanny and there is already lots of evidence that these transmissions are programmed similarly. Not sure if anybody has ever tried swapping these -- but I think its worth a shot to pick one up from the scrap yard and take a look if you suspect TCU failure. 

*Transmission Computer*








PN 01P 927 733.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> You are right, it's the L79 bulb on the same Bentley page that I have referenced above.
> 
> I missed it because I bought my van with this bulb already burnt and the red Si "condom" missing. Still, I should've known better because I modified this bulb holder to accommodate a super bright red LED instead of the original bulb.


It would make a really good DIY. :thumbup: I think most of us who bought our vans second hand - never realized that the console was to be illuminated at all.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*Pedal Set Conversion*

While I've started removing the wiring, I also took out the pedal set out to convert over. Gives some room to work there too.

It's all pretty easy stuff actually. In my original kit, I was supplied with the pedal set from an early eurovan - and it included the whole back plate -- which you don't need to change out (unless you like doing things the hard way). 
Its a easy decision to use the Lucille's current pedal set. First off, the potentiometer support bracket is welded in place. Secondly, the newer brake light switches are designed to be non-removable (one time only installation). The existing pedal set already has the necessary mounts for the clutch components already.

This is all pretty straight forward once you remove the pedal cluster (disconnect the brake light switch, brake booster, potentiometer -- and then like 6 bolts (4 on back plate and 2 from above). The hardest is part of which is reaching those top bolts - but all in all very easy.

*Supplied Pedals from kit*









*Automatic Pedal Set*









*Pedal Set Comparison*








L-R: _Supplied Manual Pedals, Clutch Master Cylinder, Automatic Pedal Set _


I bought this cheap knock off master cylinder at the same time I bought the cheap knock off slave cylinder (which I decided not to use). Its a pretty simple device, so I will use it for now. I figure that if it starts to leak - its easy enough to change out. It's the same part number as the OEM -- but for whatever reason its missing the sleave on the plunger. 

*Clutch Master Cylinder*








_PN# 701721401B_

The switch over is pretty straight forward from here -- remove the pedal pin from each and swap over the clutch and thinner brake pedal from the manual set to the pedal set with the potentiometer. 

Just remember -- don't try and remove this brake light switch -- it's one time install item. If you do break it -- its $5 for the knock off version and probably $40 for the OEM.

*Brake Light Switch*








_DO NOT REMOVE THIS!_

Now there is one thing that I got hung up on -- and maybe you guys can fill me in on this. The older, manual pedal set has a brake pedal return spring, while the automatic setup did not. I decided to leave it off, as I figure its probably left off on late model vans that have ABS and ESP -- which are computer manipulated processes of the brake hydraulics. I figure, the spring is left off because it can interfere with those systems. I tried to check my two Jettas (one as ESP, the other does not) -- and the Bentley shows nothing -- but too much of a pain to get at just to "compare" things. I got lazy. 

*Brake Pedal Return Spring w/Sleave*








_To use, or not to use?_

Put all back together and you get this...

*Manual Swap Pedal Set w/Potentiometer*









Once I finish some of the wiring -- I will reinstall!


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Itsamoto, meant to ask you a long time ago: where did you get that honeycomb floor mat material?

I have just pulled the front seats out. The van is undergoing yet another front seat replacement. Once I am at it I'll be peeling the carpet back in order to access the fuel tank door and find the source of that elusive fuel smell. Might as well fabricate custom rubber floor mats in the process now that the front cabin's floor is clear.


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## B5.5 4EVER (Jun 11, 2009)

Itsamoto said:


> While I've started removing the wiring, I also took out the pedal set out to convert over. Gives some room to work there too.
> 
> It's all pretty easy stuff actually. In my original kit, I was supplied with the pedal set from an early eurovan - and it included the whole back plate -- which you don't need to change out (unless you like doing things the hard way).
> Its a easy decision to use the Lucille's current pedal set. First off, the potentiometer support bracket is welded in place. Secondly, the newer brake light switches are designed to be non-removable (one time only installation). The existing pedal set already has the necessary mounts for the clutch components already.
> ...


Was it necessary to pull all of this out, I thought you can just take the brake pin out, remove the bigger brake pedal, swap it with the manual version, add the clutch pedal and install the longer pin on top... That is how I did this on my Passat when I was changing transmissions...I think you will also need one of those brake light switches for the clutch pedal...


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## B5.5 4EVER (Jun 11, 2009)

KBATTPO said:


> Itsamoto, meant to ask you a long time ago: where did you get that honeycomb floor mat material?
> 
> I have just pulled the front seats out. The van is undergoing yet another front seat replacement. Once I am at it I'll be peeling the carpet back in order to access the fuel tank door and find the source of that elusive fuel smell. Might as well fabricate custom rubber floor mats in the process now that the front cabin's floor is clear.


I think those are the mats that LLoyd sells, they are called Rubbertite.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

B5.5 4EVER said:


> Was it necessary to pull all of this out, I thought you can just take the brake pin out, remove the bigger brake pedal, swap it with the manual version, add the clutch pedal and install the longer pin on top... That is how I did this on my Passat when I was changing transmissions...I think you will also need one of those brake light switches for the clutch pedal...


I think it's possible to do it with it in place - and you mentioned this to me before too. 

I did try to get the pin out without removing the pedals, but I couldn't do it. I tried some small c-clamps - but couldn't get it. Then I tried to tap it out with various various "drifts" - but I could never get enough room to get a good angle of attack. So I said "to heck with this" and 6 bolts later its out. 

And one thing always seems to lead to another -- scope creep sets in fast when you see all the parts of the van than need work. So 4 of those 6 bolts are actually from my brake booster.

It looked like this:










So I sanded it down and painted it, and now it looks like this:










So - for me it was worth taking it out. :thumbup:


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> Itsamoto, meant to ask you a long time ago: where did you get that honeycomb floor mat material?
> 
> I have just pulled the front seats out. The van is undergoing yet another front seat replacement. Once I am at it I'll be peeling the carpet back in order to access the fuel tank door and find the source of that elusive fuel smell. Might as well fabricate custom rubber floor mats in the process now that the front cabin's floor is clear.





B5.5 4EVER said:


> I think those are the mats that LLoyd sells, they are called Rubbertite.


Yes I think these are the Lloyd style of mats -- previous owner had put then in. You can get them through Eurocampers here: http://www.eurocampers.com/EuroVan-Rubber-Floor-Mats_c_137.html, or even at GoWesty, here:  http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=4089&category_id=316&category_parent_id=. Seems these are actually on sale at GoWesty.

All that being said, I think they make for lousy floor mats -- especially at winter time. Better than bare carpet - but I would get the OEM's if you're shopping. OEM mats actually on sale at ECS Tuning (I've never seen them this cheap before - I think I will be ordering a set). Linkage: https://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-Eurovan_T4--VR6_24v/Interior/Floor_Mats/ES404225/. Seems these OEM mats (PN 701061501A041) are also on Ebay frequently.

Ideally, with the carpet pulled out, you could source the rubber floor from a commercial Transporter and put that in. To me that is the ultimate - solution. Check the example below from the UK T4 forum, here: http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=87131. An amazing thread.


----------



## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Itsamoto said:


> Yes I think these are the Lloyd style of mats -- previous owner had put then in.
> ...
> All that being said, I think they make for lousy floor mats -- especially at winter time. Better than bare carpet - but I would get the OEM's if you're shopping. OEM mats actually on sale at ECS Tuning (I've never seen them this cheap before - I think I will be ordering a set). Linkage: https://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-Eurovan_T4--VR6_24v/Interior/Floor_Mats/ES404225/. Seems these OEM mats (PN 701061501A041) are also on Ebay frequently.


I thought this much. Thank you for confirming my suspicions. I have rubber OEM Audi mats in my both Audis and couldn't be happier.


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

B5.5 4EVER said:


> I think you will also need one of those brake light switches for the clutch pedal...


Yes -- this is something to figure out for sure. Cruise control aside, I guess that the Motronic setup apparently will adjust/temper throttle when the clutch is engaged.


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*Exhaust Manifold Ports*

So while I have the exhaust manifolds off -- I took a bit of time this weekend to clean them up. The Eurovan's AXK manifold differs in shape and construction from the BDF. The difference in construction is that the BDF manifold is entirely cast -- where as the AXK's is welded together. I don't know what may make one better than the other (weight, airflow?) - but I do know that the Eurovan's had a lot of slag where the flanges and pipes are welded together. The slag bump is significant and easy to feel -- but I don't know if it was really enough to restrict airflow. I am not an expert. Either way, I ground out the slag to smooth the entry and exits of the manifold -- increasing the ports by about about 0.5-1.0mm each. 

*Eurovan AXK Exhaust Manifold*








_Non-ported, shown "normal" exposure_

Hard to see the the amount of slag in the picture (you can certainly feel it by finger). So this increased exposure shows it a bit better.

*Eurovan AXK Exhaust Manifold*








_Non-ported, shown "increased" exposure_


*BDF Cast Exhaust Manifold*








These might be slightly tighter all around, but the ports at least lack the slag ring on the inside.

And the results of the first grinding session...

*Modified -- Eurovan AXK Exhaust Manifold*








_Mildly-ported, shown "normal" exposure_

Much smoother entry, matches the gasket much better now with out the ring of "speed bumps". :thumbup:

An the down pipe side (not shown) also suffers from this, so I if get some better grinding tools I may tackle it as well in the off chance that this helps.


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*Clusters*

*Blue Clock Clusters*








_Top to Bottom: Automatic Eurovan Canadian-market, Manual Jetta Canadian-market -- different but the same.
_

Ok here is some interesting and new stuff regarding the Eurovan "blue clock" cluster. There really isn't much out there on this (as far as I can tell) - there is a thread from back in '04 where some guys were trying to swap an EV cluster into a Cabrio. Interestingly they noted how similar the late model EV was to the 3.5 Cabrio in terms of interior (switches etc) -- sort of caught between Mk3 and Mk4 style evolutions. Maybe this cluster swap info needs its own thread -- an interesting topic that could be fleshed out more. Its actually one of my favourite things about this generation of VW - the blue/red cluster. I've owned a couple of Mk4 Jettas and B5.5 Passat (with a MFA cluster) and now 2 vans -- so the blue cluster feels "right" to me, its second nature. 

As Lucille is originally an American-market van, it's cluster face is predominantly imperial "miles" and here, I would prefer it to be in KM. It sort helps keep the speeding tickets down. :laugh: So shortly after I bought the van - I was collecting parts (rear bench headrests of course) for the van and the seller happened to have a Canadian-market van and had swapped the cluster out for an imperial cluster. So yay for me - metric cluster! I used the famous page from the UK T4 group as a basis for verifying what I was going to buy (Linkage: http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=86937).

So I've had that Canadian-EV cluster on the shelf for quite a while - and never got around to installing it. Then when I parted the 03 MK4 GLI -- I kept the cluster, key and ECU as I knew it was a mated set (for immobilizer 3). Well just on a hunch, I thought we should put these clusters side by side to see if there was more than just a resemblance and see if they were swappable. This works for me as I;m going to a manual setup, but the principle is the same for all the other late-model vans out there - because it means finding a metric or imperial cluster is that much easier, and now you can upgrade to trip computer and nav-integrated clusters as well (such as the MFA and FIS models). I'm not going to touch the material around immobilizer 2 and 3 -- or how to reprogram or delete the immobilizer here. I don't know it well enough -- and there are plenty of good writeups on it that have been generated by hyper-miling tdi fanatics. The trip computers here allow all that fancy mileage tracking, and fuel estimations to be made -- although this mod also requires a special stock-arm that allows the driver to interface with the computer. Worth exploring - this is a good upgrade - Link: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=48366

So here is a quick swap using my two extra clusters to look at...

Looking at the cluster shape -- the plastic lens are at such dramatically different angles, and the overall shape seems so much different, different mounting tabs, etc -- that you would think these are two different animals. But if you look at them from behind, they use the same connections, and the cluster actually splits in half (front/back) and that's what makes the cluster swap possible. _BTW - these are both VDO made clusters, apparently there are also Bosch-made blue clusters (MAF and FIS models I suspect)._

*Rear Harness Connection*








_Top to Bottom: Eurovan Canadian-market, Jetta Canadian-market_

*Cluster Case Clips*








_Top to Bottom: Eurovan Canadian-market, Jetta Canadian-market_

Lined up back to back -- there are 4 clips along the top, and then (not shown) there are 2 clips on the bottom and then 2 T10 screws on the side that hold/separate the front fascia half from the cluster electronics half. 

*Cluster Electronics*








_Top to Bottom: Eurovan Canadian-market, Jetta Canadian-market_

So for me -- this swap basically gets me metric and drops the transmission selector display (it will also align my milage indicator with the motor). And if you didn't know this yet, but those cluster faces are removable - and there are bunches of after-market customizable clock faces available for the Mk4 platform. 

Now there are some differences to these in terms of warning lights/locations - but I think the addressing is the same (so less of an issue). I used a flash light and peeled the face plates up enough to illuminate the panel.

Where the EV has this...

*Eurovan EPC dash light*









The MK4 has this...

*Mk4 Immobilzer dash light*









And, where the EV has this...

*Eurovan: 6 warning lights in "centre"*









The MK4 has this...

*Mk4: 8 warning lights in "centre"*








The extras here being "door open", "hood open" and "bulb out indicator" .

Guess we'll have to wait and see if these will stay out if I install it in the van. 

And finally... swap the front fascia and snap it back together....

*Manual cluster for EV*









EDIT -- I just noticed that on the new assembly -- that the control knobs are longer on the MK4 cluster and so stick out even further (+ 8-10mm) on the EV fascia. Certainly something that can be easily swapped as well.


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Excellent FAQ on MK4 clusters here on the Vortex: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3568883


----------



## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Do you know the SKC for both clusters?


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> Do you know the SKC for both clusters?


No, not yet but I am reading up on Vag-tacho and Vag-dash-com -- although, as I have the matching ECU and key - I'm going to try a straight swap first. It's a brain transplant with the Jetta. :laugh:


----------



## VW_Enthu1 (Oct 23, 2004)

When you were a little kid, you were one of those (myself included in this group) that took apart your Fisher Price Tick Tock clock just to see how it worked weren't you..


----------



## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Some of us when we were little kids built our own clocks


----------



## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Itsamoto said:


> No, not yet but I am reading up on Vag-tacho and Vag-dash-com -- although, as I have the matching ECU and key - I'm going to try a straight swap first. It's a brain transplant with the Jetta. :laugh:


If the ECU goes along with the IC then they should handshake w/o a problem; else you'll need to marry them. I myself had used Uwe's great write-up on this subject when I swapped in a Canadian metric cluster in one of my cars before shipping it to Europe when I took an overseas job for a few years.

In the old days (late 1990s) I would desolder the M93C86 EEPROM from the cluster and read it in my EEPROM reader. Nowadays you can get the SKC with a VAG K+CAN.


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

VW_Enthu1 said:


> When you were a little kid, you were one of those (myself included in this group) that took apart your Fisher Price Tick Tock clock just to see how it worked weren't you..


I'm good at the dismantling part -- its the putting it back together part that has me worried. :laugh:


----------



## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

I am the other way around. Dismantling things takes more time because you still don't know how it has been assembled. Putting back together is much easier because you know exactly where each bit goes.


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> If the ECU goes along with the IC then they should handshake w/o a problem; else you'll need to marry them. I myself had used Uwe's great write-up on this subject when I swapped in a Canadian metric cluster in one of my cars before shipping it to Europe when I took an overseas job for a few years.
> 
> In the old days (late 1990s) I would desolder the M93C86 EEPROM from the cluster and read it in my EEPROM reader. Nowadays you can get the SKC with a VAG K+CAN.


Yes - cluster, ECU and key all from the same car (03 GLI) -- which was Motronic 7.1 system with 24v VR6. I'm glad I kept these parts around. :thumbup:

Yes the reprogramming of the immobilizer is so well documented these days - I can't believe it. There are local guys and shops here that will do vag-com work -- so that was always an option. I'm getting to that point where I have enough VWs to probably warrant having VCDS vag-com. Although this knock-off version ( vag dash com" seems to do it all (SKU retrieval as well).


----------



## B5.5 4EVER (Jun 11, 2009)

I was reading somewhere that the Eurovan does not have the immobilizer tied to the cluster so swapping clusters is supposedly easier then other cars... I have an euro manual EV VR6 cluster with MFA that I am planning on installing while doing the tranny swap...


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

B5.5 4EVER said:


> I was reading somewhere that the Eurovan does not have the immobilizer tied to the cluster so swapping clusters is supposedly easier then other cars... I have an euro manual EV VR6 cluster with MFA that I am planning on installing while doing the tranny swap...


Nice one Jack thats great! :thumbup:

Immobilizer 2 -- so by most accounts the "easier" part of it means you just need to retrieve the SKU of the cluster you're adding in, and not the one that you are replacing.


----------



## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

The EV is like the Cabrio. The immpbilizer is a separate unit behind the dash. It's pretty much like a BMW where their immobilizer is called an EWS and it's a separate unit too. It actually looks quite similar.


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

jjvincent said:


> The EV is like the Cabrio. The immpbilizer is a separate unit behind the dash. It's pretty much like a BMW where their immobilizer is called an EWS and it's a separate unit too. It actually looks quite similar.


So this weekend I went to look at a local 2002 GLS (~100k miles, one owner). The owned has replaced the iginition switch and got new keys with it -- but haven't adapted them to the immobilizer. So the car turns over and starts for one second and then cuts out -- seems like standard immo activation/deactivation. Well I thought I could outsmart the car -- I pulled apart covers around the steering wheel and the lower knee-panel so I could disconnect the iginition switch. Then I put the original van key into the ignition (to be read by the coil - it can't turn the cylinder) and then hot-wired the ignition switch. It cranks away tirelessly -- but no spark/fuel. Is there a tie-in to the fuel pump here that I have missed? I know on my Jetta, just getting into the car beqins a sequence of the priming the fuel pump (which I can hear). Is there something similar on the Eurovan?


----------



## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

Sounds like some other issue. It should attempt to start even if there's no key in it whatsoever (like how you explained where it starts and then shuts off). If you want to trick your EV into thinking you are starting it without the key (or the wrong key), insert the key, push the switchblade button on the key, fold the key 90 degrees and then try to start the van. It'll start and then shut down. Run the codes on the immobilizer, it will have one in there telling you the immobilizer blocked the van from starting.

As for it running the pump before you start it, I have no idea. I just went out and tried it both ways (regular and tricking the immobilizer) and I can only hear the chime and the water pump under the hood.

Maybe sticking in a new ignition switch, put the original key in the tumbler and operating the switch with a screw driver and giving it a go might be a quick and easy way to diagnose what's going on.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

jjvincent said:


> Sounds like some other issue. It should attempt to start even if there's no key in it whatsoever (like how you explained where it starts and then shuts off). If you want to trick your EV into thinking you are starting it without the key (or the wrong key), insert the key, push the switchblade button on the key, fold the key 90 degrees and then try to start the van. It'll start and then shut down. Run the codes on the immobilizer, it will have one in there telling you the immobilizer blocked the van from starting.
> 
> As for it running the pump before you start it, I have no idea. I just went out and tried it both ways (regular and tricking the immobilizer) and I can only hear the chime and the water pump under the hood.
> 
> Maybe sticking in a new ignition switch, put the original key in the tumbler and operating the switch with a screw driver and giving it a go might be a quick and easy way to diagnose what's going on.


Some good ideas here - thank you. :beer:

I think I will cut a key -- no immobilizer transponder -- and then crack open the existing key and place that "correct" transponder on the ignition ring and give that a try.

Van has also been sitting for a year -- so there could very well be other issues with fuel delivery.


----------



## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

A recent trip to the local scrap yard proved fruitful for gathering some of the little bits still needed. I picked up a reverse light wiring connector -- its same as on MK3 and some early Mk4 manuals. It was it pretty dirty -- but I also saw that Mk3 golfs have the same electrical connector used for a hood-closed switch -- which was much cleaner being up at the top of the engine housing. And I walked around a picked up some of these metal temperature sensor clips -- to replace the plastic ones currently used to hold sensors in the thermostat housing. Big thanks to KBATTPO for that tip. :thumbup:

*Junk Yard Bits*









And I also picked up the clutch switch out of a MK4 Jetta. You can use one from a Mk3 as well -- the difference is the Mk3 will have a vacuum line attached for cruise control. Fits perfectly with the T4 pedal set. I had thought of leaving it out as I just don't really use cruise control -- but apparently the Motronic 7 ECU tempers throttle when the clutch is engaged (so gotta have it).

*Clutch Switch MK4*









*Fitted Switch*









One thing I found interesting while rummaging in an old Passat -- was the shift knob looked very familiar... 

*Passat and EV Shift Knobs*









_Identical to the EV shifter!_ 

However, for the 02G setup though, I found this new through the local dealership for about $11. 

*02G Shift Knob*








_02G w/reverse below 5th_

Surely not necessary, but a nice touch and it will help keep Mrs.Itsamoto from getting stuck in the parking lot.


----------



## xinnar (Feb 12, 2002)

Awesome progress! I'm definitely following this thread with a lot of interest. This has been on my wish list for a little while.

Also, I can confirm that the immobilizer is NOT inside the cluster on the EV.


----------



## B5.5 4EVER (Jun 11, 2009)

Itsamoto said:


> However, for the 02G setup though, I found this new through the local dealership for about $11.
> 
> *02G Shift Knob*
> 
> ...


What's the part number on this? I would love to find a leather version of this...


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

I owned several older Audis with the same 1-5 shifting pattern. Perhaps this knob would fit Eurovan:

443-711-141-Q (leather)











893-711-141-P (wood)


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

B5.5 4EVER said:


> What's the part number on this? I would love to find a leather version of this...


I think this is PN#: 701711141B -- possibly 701711141B-01C.

There is a leather version available too -- I haven't searched the dealer for it ($$$) - but have seen it online. PN#: 7D0711141E 01C










Linkage: http://www.t4srus.co.uk/genuine-vw-t4-acv-leather-gear-knob-in-gloss-black-and-chrome-years-90---03-22560-p.asp



You could also go for something like this -- and illuminated gear knob... using that shift housing light connection for your power source.










Linkage: http://www.ebay.ie/itm/VW-T4-Bus-shift-gear-knob-gaiter-illuminated-leather-real-leather-LED-NEW-/370743042855?hash=item565201e327


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> I owned several older Audis with the same 1-5 shifting pattern. Perhaps this knob would fit Eurovan:
> 
> 443-711-141-Q (leather)
> 
> 893-711-141-P (wood)


These are good options too -- I read on the UK Forum that the thread pitch for the transporter knob is M14 x 1.5mm.


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## B5.5 4EVER (Jun 11, 2009)

Itsamoto said:


> I think this is PN#: 701711141B -- possibly 701711141B-01C.
> 
> There is a leather version available too -- I haven't searched the dealer for it ($$$) - but have seen it online. PN#: 7D0711141E 01C
> 
> ...


Thanks for the part numbers, I saw that illuminated one and love it but I also have a Projektzwo console installed so the boot will be way too long... But that leather one looks good and not too crazy expensive, I will get that...


----------



## B5.5 4EVER (Jun 11, 2009)

KBATTPO said:


> I owned several older Audis with the same 1-5 shifting pattern. Perhaps this knob would fit Eurovan:
> 
> 443-711-141-Q (leather)
> 
> ...


That leather one looks even better as it doesn't have the chrome on it, which I don't like too much...


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

I had that leather knob in several Audis and I liked it a lot. The legend is Chrome plating on a plastic insert, tho...

In the wife's old A4 I replaced the original knob with the MOMO Race Air knob. It felt great. 










In my own car I have a Carbon Fibre knob that I bought in Ingolstadt in the Audi boutique at the plant during the factory tour. It is similar to this one:










No legend, but since my car has the same shift pattern as my wife's car Mrs.KBATTPO is not at a risk of confusing the gears when she borrows it.


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## B5.5 4EVER (Jun 11, 2009)

A bit of chrome is OK but that Audi knob is $140... I think I will stick with a VW leather option... The part number you posted I think is for a plastic version not leather, I think a correct part number for a leather version is 7D0711141A E74 looking at this:
http://vagpart.com/vw/eurovan-eu-us-2003-71145-selector-mechanism/#p-vw-7d0711141ae74


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*New 2002 gls*

Another lucky find. 

*2002 EV GLS*









So I went back to that van that I found locally and managed to get it started. I had called in a local "vw-tuner" to come and adapt the keys to the immobilizer for me, but he was unsuccessful. He used Vag-tacho (gosh that is such a bad name) to try and pull the SKC which is needed to login to VCDS when adapting new keys. No dice. We worked on if for a hour or so -- and he confessed he didn't know how to retrieve it from the Van (despite a couple days of researching it ahead of time). :banghead: I guess that pulling the SKC from these is not the cake walk I thought it would be.

Anyhow -- I took the keys with me and sat down for dinner. :beer: Using a small screwdriver, I was able to open up the existing key and split open the new key -- swapping the transponder chips. Returned to the car (one last time - I thought) -- and it started on the first try and I drove it home! Drivetrain is smooth! :thumbup:

Paid $2500 CDN -- for a one owner van with a scant 165k km (~103k miles) -- less than half the mileage that Lucille has on her! Owner is an older man and himself a Eurovan enthusiast -- this was his second Eurovan, the previous a 1992 LWB with double sliders that he had also bought new. He said he had to special order the van through the dealership as these years were so scarce in Canada -- paying $50k CDN for it back then (holy bad exchange rate). His family then used the van primarily for transporting their son who is wheel-chair bound - and that the van had transmission problems at 90k km and the dealership bungled the transmission repair job twice. The second time they used a rebuilt transmission and the torque converter "came apart" damaging both the engine and the transmission. So I guess the dealership ended up replacing the engine and he got a new transmission air-freighted in from Germany -- all about 40k km ago!!! Its almost too good to be true -- so I will have to get in there and see if I can find some build-date codes off of the transmission. 

Now it's not all roses... the key issue is a good example of that. With 3 keys for the van -- the original can open the doors, and then one converted iginition key can be used to start the van. I'm going to have to get the keys properly adapted and then probably talk to a locksmith about getting matching lock cores.

*New Ignition Switch *








_Covers still off from a night of trying everything I got to get her going.
_
*Interior Folded Down*








_Notice blue seatbelt restraint on RHS -- used for wheelchaired passengers_

Check out this awful rust patch on the drivers side -- easily the size of a softball.

*Rust Ball*









The passenger area has four of these wheel chair tie downs installed - a good reason to rip out the rear carpet and install some rubber flooring.

*Wheel Chair Tie Down*









Interior is a bit worn as well -- here you can see the drivers seat cushion has been damaged -- there is basically a hole in the cushion where my finger is. I'll try pulling the seat cushion from one of the middle row captains chairs for a replacement.

*Worn Drivers Seat Cushion*









Drivers side door arm-rest -- worn down to nothing. I guess some people really like to use this. 

*Worn Arm-rest*









Some other issues inside (to be anticipated) -- 2 broken armrests, dirty carpet and enough dog hair to knit a sweater.

And last but not least, some nice bonuses that came along with the van. New filters -- Oil, Fuel, Air and Cabin. New centre-caps for the wheels. 1.5L of G12 coolant.

*Filters!*









Oh and I got this too -- hopefully I can transfer the license over. :thumbup:

*Bentley EV DVD*


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Good catch, Itsamoto. You seem to be growing them on trees...

I can help you retrieve the SKC using a non-destructive method. Shoot me an email and I'll send a few files your way.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> Good catch, Itsamoto. You seem to be growing them on trees...
> 
> I can help you retrieve the SKC using a non-destructive method. Shoot me an email and I'll send a few files your way.


Yes, I can't believe how many cheap vans I have found -- and these late-model years are very rare around here. I think there is so much potential for each van - I can't help myself.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

I spent some time last night cleaning the 2002 GLS that I picked up. Found some interesting things in the engine bay that I thought worth sharing. Mainly obvious stuff, but some of these things I'm starting to recognize as I keep seeing on other 24v EVs. 

*2002 VW EV GLS*









First thing here, and I haven't seen if on my other vans, is this coolant leak from the throttle body. The hose at the top is the coolant return line, the supply line enters from underneath. 

BTW - _you can also sort of make out the corrosion setting in around the brake booster as well. _

*Leaking Coolant Hose*









In the regular VR6 world -- the discussion of deleting these lines comes up now and then. Their purpose is to heat/warm the throttle body to prevent it from freezing and getting stuck -- ironically from the crankcase vapours that are fed in upstream.  Since I'm re-routing my crankcase vapours to be downstream of the throttle body - I'm going to delete these lines and thin out some hoses. If you're in a hot climate -- I wouldn't lose any sleep at deleting this. In colder climates, unless you reroute the crankcase vapours I would leave it in. Either way, just make sure you clean the throttle body out once in a while. 

From the garage -- here's a comparison of AXK and BDF throttle bodies (which I first cleaned a lot of oil grime out of).

*Throttle Bodies*








_L-R: AXK version, BDF version_

These are basically the same thing between the two platforms, the difference is in how the coolant lines are routed. At one end, there is common coolant exit/entry, at at the other end a option (at installation) of 3 different exits/entries. Before examining it, I imagined these "lines" would have been better integrated to the throttle body with less stand off. _Honestly, it doesn't even look that effective in the first place! _ 

As I'm in "delete" mode, I tried to pull the hose barbs with some vice-grips but they broke off and I ended up drilling them out. The other benefit of this delete, is it eliminates the need for the fragile T-connection that connects the supply line. :thumbup:

*Throttle Body Coolant Line*








_Barbs removed!_


Back to the new van....

Here you can see the EVAP line that runs from the N80 valve to the intake looks "wet". Can I safely pressume that some leaking was happening here ? -- the van does throw a P0441 code when I scan it. 

*Leaking EVAP line?*









This is where I want to reroute my crankcase vapours -- putting it downstream of the TB. On Lucille, my plan is to basically pull the EVAP hose barb from this part of the manifold-extension and replace it with a tapped fitting. Possibly a T or Y fitting to maintain the EVAP line.

And then, just like Lucille's engine, the oil filler tube is covered in a nice amount of oil.  I take it that the cap also vents -- but this seems a little too common place. Anybody else seeing this on their own van? I take it that crank case gases are getting trapped up in the long tube and then venting through the cap. 

*Dirty Oil Filler Tube*









And then, I haven't seen a van that doesn't have this yet....

*Dirty Power Steering Fluid Tank*









Why is this? Crumby plastic components? Are the vans over pressurizing the line, is there too much fluid in the system? 

From the garage, here's Lucille's leaky PS tank.

*Lucille's Dirty Power Steering Fluid Tank*










Anyhow -- just some all to common break downs of the EV system. Anybody else seeing similar issues?


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## B5.5 4EVER (Jun 11, 2009)

My power steering fluid tank looks like that too, I had wiped it many times but it comes back...That seat cushion is no longer available but if you need one let me know I found a source in Europe...


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

A few things:
PS reservoir: First used on a 1980 Audi 5000. They all look like that when people overfill them. Suggestion, go 1" below the minimum line when the van is cold. Problem goes away. This is the same thing with the "Leakmaster Pro" PS reservoir that ZF made that's installed on numerous Porsches and BMW's. Same problem, same solution.

Usually the seal is bad or a sloppy person filling it is the reason for oil all around the cap.

If you reroute the crankcase vapors downstream, make sure that oil cap is sealed well (if not, you'll have a big intake leak). Another option is to run the crankcase line to a catch can and then to the intake.

Every EV looks oily on the evap line. VW chose the wrong material for that hose, thus it sweats.

I suggest looking at the brake booster line. They crack and leak. Plus, all of the vacuum lines. Most of them are ready to give up the ghost by now.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

jjvincent said:


> A few things:
> PS reservoir: First used on a 1980 Audi 5000. They all look like that when people overfill them. Suggestion, go 1" below the minimum line when the van is cold. Problem goes away. This is the same thing with the "Leakmaster Pro" PS reservoir that ZF made that's installed on numerous Porsches and BMW's. Same problem, same solution.
> 
> Usually the seal is bad or a sloppy person filling it is the reason for oil all around the cap.
> ...


Thanks JJ. Great advice and knowledge. :beer:


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Small update here. 

Regarding the brake booster line -- seems very common that plastic hose dosen't last on the van. Lucille's was no exception -- I suspected a leak in the vacuum system for a while with the regular symptoms.

*EV Brake Booster Line*









To remedy this, I plan on replacing the plastic line from the brake booster to the manifold with braided line -- and then rerouting some of the other vacuum items. 

To start I'm replacing the hose barb/adapter that's on the brake booster itself. I ordered a check valve from Summit racing, here: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G1465. This will provide -6AN fitting to plumb off of - and at the manifold side I will pull the barb and thread in another adapter (possibly a T fitting).

*Brake Booster Line Adapters*








L-R: Plastic OEM adapter, Summit G1465 adapter

Swap the rubber grommets between the two -- and then the fit will be nice and snug with the brake booster.

*Summit Adapter with Grommet swap*









And... here it is installed to the brake booster. Once the engine is back in, I will fit the braided line to length. 

*Summit Adapter in EV Brake Booster*









It's a bit "bling" -- but I think its ok here because its actually replacing a prone-to-fail plastic item. There is probably a thousand other ways to do this (and many of them cheaper too) -- but this nicely permits both -AN fitting and check valve combined into one item. This also highlights one the benefits of the EV's engine manifold (vs the plastic BDF manifold) -- as it's aluminum makes it a bit more friendly to adapting the line fittings from barbs to something else. :thumbup:


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

For anyone wanting to repair the line, a foot of this heat shrink works (along with some tip ties on the outside after you put the heat shrink on):
http://www.mcmaster.com/#2595k6/=zjbk04


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Something that has been bothering me for while -- with the access to Lucille's engine bay, I couldn't help but notice how much of mess the power steering system is. This stems from removing the engine and really getting access to all these other sub systems. You get greater access than ever before and you can inspect everything in the bay (for better or for worse).

The problem is multi-headed, but basically the PS system has leaked so much -- everything in the vicinity has some power steering fluid on in. I get that the ps pump is designed to build pressure in the system -- thats what aids/powers the steering rack. But it seems that this pressure also results in a lot of leaks. I honestly thought about dropping the power steering systems in favour of a "de-powered" setup or even just a manual rack -- and then I came to my senses that this is a van and power steering is probably a good thing.


The resevoir itself is major point of leaking -- its so dirty I can't tell if its leaking from the top or the bottom (probably both). Even the mounting bracket it attaches to was covered in PS fluid. 

*Power Steering Resevoir*










There are are other problems as well -- deeper into the system (closer to steering rack) the pressure line shows a leak.

*Pressure Line*









Worst of all was the pump itself -- the supply line was leaking steadily and once I removed the pulley, I found a lot of twine wrapped around the pump shaft. Maybe this was something that got sucked up into the engine bay (I also found string around the water pump) - and hopefully not some homespun way of holding hoses out of danger. 

*Power Steering Pump*









So I pulled the reservoir to start -- its held into the bracket via some clips at the the bottom and it should just slide out the top. For me that didn't work, so I drained it and then pried it out with flathead screwdriver. What a mess this thing is! Not sure what I will replace this with -- perhaps something off another car, maybe a diy container. 

*Reservoir Pulled*









So why does this leak so much? I was asking this before and I think I know some of the answer to this now -- and its rather obvious. The first is that the system is under pressure -- and as JJvincent pointed out - overfilled from the factory. The second thing, obvious to me once I held the cap up to the light...

*Power Steering Reservoir Cap*









Yep -- and tiny f'n hole in the middle of it. I never noticed it before because the cap was so completely covered in dried up power steering fluid. :laugh:

Beneath the cap -- there is a little breather filter. This works about as good as the crank case ventilation filter -- letting vapour crap escape. 

*Cap Filter*


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

The twine that wrapped around the pump shaft is a pain. There is actually enough there to cause noticeable resistance when turning the pump by hand. So I removed the PS pump and compared it with the one I have from the GLI (which turns easily)-- just in case I need to use this.

*Power Steering Pump Comparison*








_L-R: AXK pump, BDF pump_

For the most part the pumps are probably interchangeable. Their mounts to the ancillary bracket are the same -- the pulley mount is the same. The pressure line outlet (the threaded port shown pointing up) is the same - same thread too so I can use the banjo bolt from Lucille. The only thing that presents a challenge is the supply line inlet -- on the AXK's it angles out towards the passenger side, where as the BDF version faces full on to the drivers side. I may try and pull the hose barb, tap the hole and then fit something like AN fitting that can hold the pressure and reroute the line. Deleting the PS fluid hard cooler-line is also a thought - if it helps with routing.

Specification wise, the pumps are slightly different. The AXK is rated for 106 BAR, and the BDF pump is rated for 100 BAR. So this might be a good thing -- a downgrade to lower line pressure in order to reduce the chance of leaks? 

*Pump Backs*








_L-R: AXK pump, BDF pump_


The AXK PS pump reminds me of the quality difference that I saw in comparing the original clutch throw out bearing with the available replacements -- where the original component is superior quality with tight tolerances in the casting, serviceable back and machined surfaces. The BDF PS pump (a Delphi?) is cast and unless there is something under that sticker, it cannot be opened up. Perhaps a nothing point (moot ) - because really, how many reasons can you find that require the pump to be opened and inspected? Still the ability to do that makes me think the original pump is better quality (for the reasons mentioned above). Where as the cast pump, I notice a small amount of fluid is visible through that back surface. Perhaps this is a left over from me storing it in a pile of oily parts, or perhaps a slow leak (and its not even under pressure yet!).

And finally, here is the pump pulled apart. 

*AXK PS Pump Disassembled*









You can see how much twine I was able to pull off the shaft -- end to end thats at least a couple of feet. Unfortunately, after getting it all out , the pump was still somewhat difficult to turn and I suspect the bearing is shot and will need to be replaced.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

That twine on the PS pump is actually the cord that is on the inside of a serpentine belt. So, at one time the belt destroyed itself and someone didn't take the time to get rid of everything that was wrapped around it.

That PS pump on the EX is a run of the mill ZF unit used on Audi's, Porsche's, MB's and BMW's. Other companies make the pump but it's been around in one way shape or form since the early 80's. Even the rack is just a variation of an old ZF unit. If you really wanted to be trick, just get an electric power steering pump from a Porsche or MB. The you can eliminate the engine driven pump.

If you are looking for a really good leak free PS reservoir, then get one from a 76 or 77 Audi 100LS or a 78 or 79 Audi 5000. They are metal and should slide right in. Audi went with the plastic one on the 5000 in 1980.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

jjvincent said:


> That twine on the PS pump is actually the cord that is on the inside of a serpentine belt. So, at one time the belt destroyed itself and someone didn't take the time to get rid of everything that was wrapped around it.


Is that what thats from? Grrrrrr!!!!  



jjvincent said:


> That PS pump on the EX is a run of the mill ZF unit used on Audi's, Porsche's, MB's and BMW's. Other companies make the pump but it's been around in one way shape or form since the early 80's. Even the rack is just a variation of an old ZF unit. If you really wanted to be trick, just get an electric power steering pump from a Porsche or MB. The you can eliminate the engine driven pump.


Yeah, I suppose that ZF unit is run of the mill (looking online) - but still so much nicer than the rough cast one from the BDF engine. I like the idea of the electric pump -- potential gas savings there as well. New ones aren't cheap (especially off a Porsche or MB), I may look in the junkyard for one (I believe Mazda 3s sport these -- and they are plentiful in the yard).



jjvincent said:


> If you are looking for a really good leak free PS reservoir, then get one from a 76 or 77 Audi 100LS or a 78 or 79 Audi 5000. They are metal and should slide right in. Audi went with the plastic one on the 5000 in 1980.


I would love to find a metal one -- but those cars are impossible to find locally. An aluminum one off of eBay with a proper pressure release valve (instead of just a vent) may be easier to find. I will dig around for an Audi one though. 


BTW - you are fountain of knowledge. Thank you for your inputs. :beer:


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## B5.5 4EVER (Jun 11, 2009)

Did you see this?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Swap...579751?hash=item2104ed46a7:g:pr0AAOSw5ZBWNRVz


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

B5.5 4EVER said:


> Did you see this?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Swap...579751?hash=item2104ed46a7:g:pr0AAOSw5ZBWNRVz


I've read about this before... 

Here's a quote from 2011 - a thread regarding the use of BDF engines in Eurovans:



rensho said:


> I made this swap about 3 years ago.
> 
> You need a block from a MANUAL donor car, or else the tranny mounting will be 1 hole off. I bought an auto block and had to fabricate a mounting location on the block.
> 
> ...


Maybe that's Rensho's ad on Ebay! 

I don't think that the BDF equipped cars (GTI/GLI) were available with an automatic transmission -- so maybe late model MK4 GLX's could be outfitted that way.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Itsamoto said:


> I don't think that the BDF equipped cars (GTI/GLI) were available with an automatic transmission -- so maybe late model MK4 GLX's could be outfitted that way.


Not sure of the engine code but the GLI did indeed come with a 24V VR6 auto for a period of time. I specifically remember going with my sister-in-law on a test drive of one back around 2002.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

Maybe just do an LS swap. They seem to put them things in everything.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

jjvincent said:


> Maybe just do an LS swap. They seem to put them things in everything.


I didn't really have any idea of the LS world out there until I watched this video on what makes the LS so damn good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsmbbuSq9m0

Note to self: _I must expand my vehicle horizons._


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

So I mentioned before that I wanted to run an oil catch can off the valve cover. I think it makes a lot of sense after seeing all the oil vapour sludge that gets into the manifold and throttle body -- not to mention what it did to Lucille's engine bay -- coating and destroying the van's original PCV hose and also draining oil upstream towards the MAF sensor.

Here's a flashback:

*Damaged PCV Hose*









*Oil Soaked MAF Sensor*







_Notice that the MAF is installed upside down?_ It's a nice little way to drain oil into all the hard to reach places of the engine bay. 


So a catch can seems like a good idea not only to keep the intake components clean, after some sage advice from Eric D in the 24v 2.8L VR6 technical forum -- its also a good way to keep that oil sludge from accumulating inside the engine. 

There are multiple ways to do this by running a hose in place of the PCV to the the catch can -- some involve just clamping a new hose to the barb, or you can remove the hose barb to fit an adapter. I have even seen a thread or two whereby the valve cover is cut open and modified for greater ventilation (and oil separation?). Lots of techniques -- there is no shortage of imagination. I went with the "after market" adapter route as I'd like to run some nice -AN fittings with some upgrade hoses eventually. I toyed with the idea of pulling the barb and threading the hole -- but the cost for the tap alone was going to much higher than the $15 adapter and the fitting probably wouldn't have worked as nice either.

So, here's what I ordered:

*CTS -10AN Valve Cover Breather Adapter*








Item page: http://www.ctsturbo.com/cart/products/CTS_10AN_Valve_Cover_Breather_Adapter_For_06A_1_8T-4839-581.html

CTS Turbo lists these as for 1.8t engines, but I called them and asked that they measure the diameter of the input side which was a clean 20mm. Which makes this the same as the one offered by Integrated Engineering (specified for 24v VR6) but for $5 less. 

The interesting thing is that the IE page describes the install as just a press-in fit. As I have 2 extra BDF valve covers just lying around, I decided to measure things first. I pulled the hose barb with some lock pliers and true to form the inside diameter was pretty much 20.0mm. A quick test on the BDF valve cover confirmed it was going to be a push-to-fit adapter. However, when I went to install on AXK valve cover -- its actually like 0.1mm larger in diameter and so the fit was looser.

*Valve Cover Adapter and AXK Hose Barb*









Here's why I think the adapter would actually work better than threading in another adapter... If you look at this picture, it shows (from the inside) the outlet hole where the hose barb is pressed in.










And then with the adapter sitting in place (sorry lame photo) - you can see that the adapter's depth is also a perfect match for the valve cover. Some the options I was pursuing with tapping and threading an adapter in -- would have further protruded into the valve cover by probably .125-.75" -- restricting the vapour flow.










And installed to the valve cover, I used some cold weld to create the seal and make up the 0.1mm difference.

*Breather Adapter Installed*


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

One option is to vent it to a Peterson Breather catch can and then run the drain back to the oil pan. That way, all blow by liquid will go back where it needs to be. It's a trick ost racers use when you run a really loose piston to cylinder wall gap (thus lots of blow by).


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

jjvincent said:


> One option is to vent it to a Peterson Breather catch can and then run the drain back to the oil pan. That way, all blow by liquid will go back where it needs to be. It's a trick ost racers use when you run a really loose piston to cylinder wall gap (thus lots of blow by).


The often imitated but never quite duplicated catch can. Yes I had an old Greddy catch can on hand that I was going to use - but need to make an internal baffle for it. Perhaps I will replace with something newer. I was just planning on routing back the vapour return to the goose-neck of the manifold -- which already has 4 vacuum ports to it. If I ever get this thing finished, maybe I can revisit plumbing back to the sump (with a turbo). 

Interesting about the blow-by. By your comments, do you think that adding a catch can is just masking another problem? 

I didn't want to open up the engine on this job -- thought it would add too much to my timeline and budget as this was supposed to be quick project.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

Pretty much every 24V VR6 EV will have oil in that pipe, through the MAF and onto the oil filter. VW did not go the route like other manufacturers where they pull a vacuum on the crankcase and the vent is routed downstream of the throttle plate. For example a BMW has it routed to the intake manifold and there is a drain that allows the liquid to go back down to the oil pan.

If you take that pipe off every few years and wipe it out, no problem with it getting to the MAF.


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## xinnar (Feb 12, 2002)

Any updates on this thread? Did you pause the project because of the holidays?


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

xinnar said:


> Any updates on this thread? Did you pause the project because of the holidays?


Yes -- the pressures of the holidays and my real life necessitated a break -- no time to work on the van and no time to spend online either. 

The good news was that I got to spend quality time with my family and demonstrate to them that I'm not addicted to the computer (and we all need a little less screen time)! I also got to spend more time with my blue GLS -- which was a superb replacement for Lucille over the holidays and was awesome running full loads out to the mountains for skiing and other holiday adventures. I got to say -- the second row passengers are much happier riding 2hrs in the GLS than in the weekender.


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## xinnar (Feb 12, 2002)

Itsamoto said:


> we all need a little less screen time



Definitely agree with you there! Glad to hear the holidays were relaxing. I do agree - the GLS seats are great for long trips. I'm lucky (or unlucky?) in that I'm not carrying around passengers very often. 

I did some driving in my MV in the Boston blizzard weather and the van handled surprisingly well on the not-so-great-for-snow tires I had. Was my first nasty conditions drive in the thing and all was well.

Couldn't help but think it would have been a bit smoother and easier with a manual transmission, though.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

xinnar said:


> Definitely agree with you there! Glad to hear the holidays were relaxing. I do agree - the GLS seats are great for long trips. I'm lucky (or unlucky?) in that I'm not carrying around passengers very often.
> 
> I did some driving in my MV in the Boston blizzard weather and the van handled surprisingly well on the not-so-great-for-snow tires I had. Was my first nasty conditions drive in the thing and all was well.
> 
> Couldn't help but think it would have been a bit smoother and easier with a manual transmission, though.


The late model vans with ESP traction control -- really handle the ice and snow excellent. ESP is essentially like having half a 4motion set up .

My blue van is paired with Nokians -- all seaons -- and was awesome this winter, even in some fairly scary road conditions. I had read the accolades that others made about the Nokians -- and after half a winter on them I got to agree that it's a great choice of tire.

Don't give up hope on getting your manual parts inline -- they are out there (although rare) and I have a very good reason to believe that swap using another VW transmission could be made to work.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

You can't beat the TC and stability control on a EV. It is an older system with the separate diff pump but it does work well. With an automatic I think it works better because all you got to do is plant your foot on the throttle and let the electronics do the work for you. Don't need to shift or take your hands off the wheel.

Only time I ever got the EV hung up was when we were skiing at Pico and it snowed a foot while we were skiing. They couldn't plow the lot because it was full of cars. I first dug the van out and then it got stuck in a few feet later. I rocked it back and forth. A minute later it started going and was just fine. It was like an obstetrical course in the lot with all of the other stuck vehicles. Got to hand it to the snow tires on that one plus the TC was working overtime.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

jjvincent said:


> You can't beat the TC and stability control on a EV. It is an older system with the separate diff pump but it does work well. With an automatic I think it works better because all you got to do is plant your foot on the throttle and let the electronics do the work for you. Don't need to shift or take your hands off the wheel.


So true - I never thought to much about this. I have the traction control (or EPS pr ESP?) on my VW wagons (B5.5 Passat and Mk4 Jetta) and those are/were manuals. The first time the TC kicked in on one of them I wasn't sure what the correct response is as the driver. I think when driving standard, and the road conditions are slippery - you can feel the car lose traction better but the first instinct is probably to engage the clutch or hesitate some how. Anyhow, I got used to it -- and now its second nature (to keep going) when it comes on. Definitely with the Eurovan (my first automatic car) its almost seamless when it comes on - it works fast and good - and I rarely sense the feedback in the car that the conditions are slippery.


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## d-9 (Apr 24, 2012)

Just dropping in from the T4forum, thanks for taking the time to document this conversion. There has been a lot of talk of a manual transmission conversion for a v6 eurovan over the years, but no real pictures or info, this is really helpful. 

If you still need help getting your skc from your clusters, drop me a pm and I can talk you through it. 


And traction control? Urghhh can't stand it on my a6 2.7T, cuts the power, lets you spin wheels and won't let the car dig itself out, my C4 Quattro was far more effective on mud.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Ditto that. I own both the C4 and the C5 quattros and don't like it when the ESP interferes and takes power from the wheels when it feels like it. Thank god for the ESP-OFF button in the C5 but the ABS-OFF button I had to retrofit into my C4 myself and I haven't gotten around to doing the same to the C5.

The old Type-44 quattros (2 of the 3 differentials could be locked, no ESP, ABS could be switched off) were unsurpassed in snow. The newer ones are a far cry from those.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

OTOH the V6 Eurovan is automatic and this drawback severely cripples its snow going ability. To add insult to injury it only has two driven wheels - yet another disadvantage further diminishing its surefootness in snow. Perhaps ESP is a justifiable band-aid under such circumstances for the lack of a better word.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

I'd be a fool to argue against the logic here -- the Eurovan is no quattro thats for sure.  

But, for a FWD van -- that ESP works great. I mean somebody really earned their cupcake at work that day because its a sort of abstraction of what an ABS system does. I think its a fascinatingly smart little parcel of technology - it works so well for so little investment (above ABS).

Here's a VW training piece that explains ESP: http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_204.pdf

If you were on the the fence about getting a Eurovan (or what year of van) -- this feature of the late model vans is really quite valuable.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

d-9 said:


> Just dropping in from the T4forum, thanks for taking the time to document this conversion. There has been a lot of talk of a manual transmission conversion for a v6 eurovan over the years, but no real pictures or info, this is really helpful.
> 
> If you still need help getting your skc from your clusters, drop me a pm and I can talk you through it.
> 
> ...


Thanks D-9 -- the T4forum is awesome (I could spend days in awe of the projects that happen there). I think most of the fellows on there bugging around for conversion information are actually guys here in North America stuck with the automatic.


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

In racing, we have knobs to adjust the amount of ABS, TC and ESP. It's amazing how well the systems work today. Even the new M4 (plus other cars) allow you to adjust those parameters too. So, it allows the best of everything. No manual gearbox (you can shift faster and not screw up) and adjustable electronics. It really makes tracking a car today so much more fun and an example of a practical use of technology that is so much better than what a human thinks they can overcome.


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## d-9 (Apr 24, 2012)

Cheers, but this is super useful, we only got the auto transmission with the VR6/V6 in the UK too and we get people most months talking about how their auto transmission are blown. This is really interesting becaues it looks like your gearbox is just a regular 02g, if that is correct a '6 will bolt up to any van gearbox, so I have arranged to borrow a spare 2.8 block off a buddy and will offer it up to my spare transmission 

Thats a really useful document on traction control, I admit I've never driven a Eurovan with ESP (its a super rare option over here), but I can see it has potential. I am about to embark on a syncro or 4motion conversion for my 1.8t van as I'm having traction issues with it in the wet. If anyone is interested, there is a howto for the 1.8t conversion here: http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=408537


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

d-9 said:


> Cheers, but this is super useful, we only got the auto transmission with the VR6/V6 in the UK too and we get people most months talking about how their auto transmission are blown. This is really interesting becaues it looks like your gearbox is just a regular 02g, if that is correct a '6 will bolt up to any van gearbox, so I have arranged to borrow a spare 2.8 block off a buddy and will offer it up to my spare transmission
> 
> Thats a really useful document on traction control, I admit I've never driven a Eurovan with ESP (its a super rare option over here), but I can see it has potential. I am about to embark on a syncro or 4motion conversion for my 1.8t van as I'm having traction issues with it in the wet. If anyone is interested, there is a howto for the 1.8t conversion here: http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=408537



WHOAH -- I didn't realize that was your thread on the conversion. :thumbup::beer::thumbup::beer:

We had a collective drool over it on the Samba here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=538990

The transmission I'm using for the VR6 eurovan is an 02G-AFL -- it has a different bellhousing that mates the VR6's bolt pattern.


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## d-9 (Apr 24, 2012)

Yeah that was me, cheers it was a fun project  Totally silly but great to drive. That is interesting commentary on the rod issue - personally I think the first couple of vans that threw rods were due to bad tunes and hard driving on abused engines, I firmly believe the gearbox will explode before the engine! 

Now you've ruined my day with all this talk of different bellhousings! I've just taken a proper side-by-side look at the pictures and see what you mean  Still, this is a massive step forwards at least knowing what 02g box you need for the VR6.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

d-9 said:


> If anyone is interested, there is a howto for the 1.8t conversion here: http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=408537


Amazing work. Reads like a novel.

The wife's previous car was a 1998 A4 1.8t quattro 5-speed (AEB with cable throttle). I took the engine apart after it suffered the dreaded T-belt lock-up due to the poorly designed original tensioner and after I replaced the bent valves and reassembled the engine the car became surprisingly quick for such a modest engine displacement. These engines are probably a dime a dozen at junkyards nowadays. It is an interesting option indeed.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> Amazing work. Reads like a novel.
> 
> The wife's previous car was a 1998 A4 1.8t quattro 5-speed (AEB with cable throttle). I took the engine apart after it suffered the dreaded T-belt lock-up due to the poorly designed original tensioner and after I replaced the bent valves and reassembled the engine the car became surprisingly quick for such a modest engine displacement. These engines are probably a dime a dozen at junkyards nowadays. It is an interesting option indeed.


Yes an interesting option -- and I believe it would probably mate to the 5-spd 02B as well. Although I wonder if it's got enough low end torque to move up to use on a much larger vehicle? 

I have the "180HP" 1.8t (AWP) in my MkIV wagon and its certainly got some pep going for it -- but I can certainly feel the difference when I have adults in the back row. Curb weight on the Jetta wagon is about 3000 lbs - and curb weight on the Eurovan is going to be about 4200-4300 lbs. It might be pretty taxing on the 1.8t.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Well it seems to have been ages since I updated this post. I have lots to share from some things I did to Lucille in the fall (good things that take time) but did not get up to posting. And while some progress has been made, since then -- much of the spare "car work" time has been put into other cars (both my own and others) -- and of course it also doesn't help speed things up when you pick up another van either. :screwy:

Anyhow, I hope to update the thread with some of the developments for Lucille. And know that for some of you watching this to figure out your own conversion will be happy to see some new tidbits get posted here.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

*Symmetrical Mirrors*









_Can you tell what's different about this van?_

I have to say that I am so happy with the blue '02 GLS that I picked up in the fall -- it's filled in admirably with my van needs while Lucille is out of commission. No camping trips, but a lot of people moving, furniture moving, garbage hauling and just about daily use for when I have my kids with me. I've mentioned it before - but the second row captains chairs seem to be much more appreciated by passengers rather than sitting backwards in Lucille. And I also like how much easier it is to remove the bench seat for the 3 times I've helped friends move this year. :thumbup:

I've actually put in some time to getting this van up to snuff cosemetically -- cleaning it like mad (it's endless), ripping up the unsalvageable rear carpet and working my way through some nasty blemishes. I've also outfitted the van with a few easy upgrades - including the dash board cubby and this latest thing that I was able to do this long weekend -- _achieve symmetrical mirrors_! 

The lack symmetry in the mirrors has always been a gripe that I have with the Eurovan -- and something that I wanted to change with Lucille as well. I'm sure at the time VW was doing these asymmetrical mirrors it was a time of "form follows function" - because they are ergonomically better for the driver. That being said, they still look "wonky" and unbalanced and to me an eyesore. And besides that, being that its the passenger mirror, I wasn't as worried about trading some visibility because I have some old driving habits (called shoulder checking) that some people have never heard of. :laugh:

For a while, I'd been looking for a straight-up mirror trade with anyone from he UK - but had no takers. I inquired with a couple of parts dealers - but I think it was small potatoes so not a lot of callbacks on that. So eventually, I ordered myself 2 drivers side mirrors from the UK -- to get a full "low" mirror look. I wouldn't mind trying a full "high mirror" set on Lucille -- as that van is lifted, I think it might be a bit more "truck-like" -- but perhaps a bit more harder to be fitted with the correct mirror. 

After looking at the steep prices for the heated/power mirrors -- I decided I could buy 2 manual mirrors (RHD drivers side) for less than half of what the full function mirror costs. I really don't care that much about the heated/defrost function -- but I wouldn't mind retaining power mirror option (still need to figure that one out). 

*Test Fitting*









Removal of the old mirror is straight forward -- but the door card has to be removed to reach the wiring pigtails. Don't just undo the mirror and try and pull the wiring up and out as it will break the clips off inside the door. 

You can see here that the replacement mirror that I got is textured -- where as the late model vans are smooth. Maybe because it was new, but the texture seems a little heavier that the black mirrors that I've seen on the early vans.

*Mirror Glass*









One of the things that goes against this sort of upgrade is retaining visibility out of the passenger side mirror -- which is normally convex. However, these mirrors are actually split between being planar with the outer portion aspheric (for better blind spot checking when used on the drivers side). I mounted them up and test drove with them for about a week with no issues once I got used to things not _"being closer than they appear"_. Eventually I may try and find a heated convex mirror for this side and restore the defrost. I'm pretty certain it exists -- I just need to dig a bit for it.

*Smoothing the Housing*









To get the texture of the mirror housing smooth - I first carefully removed the mirror, taped off the black trim and then just sanded down the housing starting with some 180 grit sand paper and worked it down to a 320/400 grit. Then I primed it to fill in the sanding marks, and sanded the primer with 600 grit.

*Super Smooth!*









Then I got a spray can of colour-code matched paint made up at the local auto body paint supply store ($$$) and painted it slowly.

*Painted Mirror Housing*








_L-R: Original housing, Replacement housing_

And this picture (above) is actually a second paint job I did on the mirror. The first one, the clear coat spray can clogged up and basically barfed all over the housing. I screwed it up even more trying to fix it -- forcing me to sand it all the way back down and build up again. :banghead:

*Mirror Motor Mount Pattern*









I was going to move over the power mirror motor and pigtail from the original mirror housing -- but it turned out that there is a slight difference in the mounting bolt pattern that made it not possible. The original motor is held to the housing with a 4 bolt pattern (I think this is an older motor design as its the same as what can be found in a Vanagon or older VW) -- while the new housing was prepped for a 3 bolt mount (which is the same as Mk3/4 golfs).

*Mirror Motor and Pigtails*








_Top: MK3 Mirror Motor and Pigtail_
_Bottom: Eurovan Power Mirror Pigtail_

So from the junkyard I went and sourced the motor and pigtail from a Mk3 golf (I had to cut the pigtail free as I was in a hurry) and the pigtail from a Eurovan to keep the connections inside the door intact. Both use a total of 5 wires -- 3 for the motor and 2 for the mirror heating element - so you figure it would be a straight ahead swap. There is a difference that has me stumped that I could use some pointers on -- while the wring of the Mk3's power mirror is straight ahead (2 wires to heating element, 3 to the motor) the Eurovan's wiring runs 4 wires to the motor (magnetic clutch?). 

*Mk3 Mirror Motor Pigtail*








_Pins 5-4 Heating Element, Pins 3-1 to Mirror Motor_

*Eurovan Mirror Motor Pigtail*








_2-Wire Terminal: Pin1 Magnetic Clutch (back to other mirror), Pin 2 Heater Mirror Element _
_3-Wire Terminal: Pin 1 (Blue) Mirror Motor, Pin 2 (Black), Pin 3 (Brown) Ground._

I couldn't figure it out and have put off fully wiring the motor up until I get more information on how the MK3 mirror switch is wired. I have the Bentley for the Mk4 (same mirror motor), where it describes the mirror motor as being 2 motors, with the whole motor/heater element using 5 wires on a 12pin connector. Maybe I'm missing something (after all those paint fumes) -- perhaps the mirror selection switch plays a bigger role to all of this -- or there may be fundamental differences in the mirror-motors that make this more difficult. Anyhow -- I'm still happily running (with no defrost and no power adjustment) for now. 

*Mounted*









*View*









*Symmetrical Mirrors*


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## B5.5 4EVER (Jun 11, 2009)

Haha I diid that a long time ago but I used the tall passenger side mirrors to achieve the symmetry :thumbup: It bothered me a lot to have two different size mirrors on the van...


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

> I was going to move over the power mirror motor and pigtail from the original mirror housing -- but it turned out that there is a slight difference in the mounting bolt pattern that made it not possible. The original motor is held to the housing with a 4 bolt pattern (I think this is an older motor design as its the same as what can be found in a Vanagon or older VW) -- while the new housing was prepped for a 3 bolt mount (which is the same as Mk3/4 golfs).


I'd try to reuse the original Eurovan motor by adding metal stand-offs or threaded spacers to the cast metal plate in positions required by the original motor.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> I'd try to reuse the original Eurovan motor by adding metal stand-offs or threaded spacers to the cast metal plate in positions required by the original motor.


Good idea -- thank you. :thumbup:

In the RHD replacement mirror -- that internal bracket is abs plastic, and not metal like the OEM mirrors -- so it actually might be even easier to just remount the original motor type. It was also get me past my motor wiring issue.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

B5.5 4EVER said:


> Haha I diid that a long time ago but I used the tall passenger side mirrors to achieve the symmetry :thumbup: It bothered me a lot to have two different size mirrors on the van...


Post a picture -- I'd love to see it!

I like the idea of two tall mirrors (that would have been my first choice) -- but I'm still happier with two wide/low mirrors over the asymmetrical design.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

You, people, are Monkish. 

Glad I am not the only one with the OCD around here.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Asymmetrical mirrors = the real reason why Eurovan sales tanked in the states. :laugh:


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## jjvincent (Dec 8, 2003)

Itsamoto said:


> Asymmetrical mirrors = the real reason why Eurovan sales tanked in the states. :laugh:


 The real reason was that VW decided no not offer a cassette deck in the EV that would have utilized the DAT audio cassette. We were forced to use analog tape and that optional overpriced CD changer. Plus, if VW would have offered screens in the back of the front headrests then hooked up to a Betamax VCR, they would have been ahead of the curve when it came to entertainment systems.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

jjvincent said:


> The real reason was that VW decided no not offer a cassette deck in the EV that would have utilized the DAT audio cassette. We were forced to use analog tape and that optional overpriced CD changer. Plus, if VW would have offered screens in the back of the front headrests then hooked up to a Betamax VCR, they would have been ahead of the curve when it came to entertainment systems.


LOL -- I'm happy there are no screens in the back! I want to keep my kids in a bubble as long as possible. One ball and one doll -- that's all they get. Their entertainment consists of their own imagination or listening to Dad talking away.

One day when they are all grown up, and if all goes according to plan, they will come to me and say: _"What do you mean we're not Amish?"_


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## B5.5 4EVER (Jun 11, 2009)

Itsamoto said:


> Post a picture -- I'd love to see it!
> 
> I like the idea of two tall mirrors (that would have been my first choice) -- but I'm still happier with two wide/low mirrors over the asymmetrical design.


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## digginthevan (Sep 15, 2005)

Funny... I always like the asymmetry of the original mirror setup. It never bothered me.
Anywhoo, rock on!


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Yes this is just one of those "fun" little upgrades to do. There aren't a lot of cheap little upgrades out there for us. 

I'm going to keep the old mirror around -- in case I change my mind, but right now the more I look at it - the more I like it. 

I had found times when I felt the vertical mirror, combined with the A-pillar and the grab handle -- all combined to make a bit of a blind area. We're talking a minor - minor inconvenience. So, dare I say that the front visibility is improved by the smidgen of difference?


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

B5.5 4EVER said:


>



Leather seats too? 

Once again confirming my suspicion that you're the man that has everything.


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## B5.5 4EVER (Jun 11, 2009)

Itsamoto said:


> Leather seats too?
> 
> Once again confirming my suspicion that you're the man that has everything.


Haha no those are custom made seat covers that were made from leatherette/alcantara...


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

Sorry for the dirty van pics, but I think I found a nice compliment to symmetrical mirrors here -- the Depo Angel Eyes.

I'm very happy with them -- they update the van quite a bit. I don't really care so much for the halos -- not trying to look like BMW or something -- but I love the quad lights, that's what I wanted. It totally reminds me of my first VW (a minty 1979
Mk1 Scirocco [email protected] km :facepalm: ) -- and of course the South African grill on the Vanagon (which really ignited that desire to have a VW van). :thumbup:



















Now its not a total love affair -- I do have some issues with these lights. While the main housing is excellent quality, the side marker is a plastic lens -- and because its clear it looks a little sloppy especially on the leading edge (that butts against the lamp). I know that there is the DRL light that is a one piece design -- and its too bad this housing wasn't made in that fashion either. The other thing is that the turn signal bulb holders are different on the other side of the world -- not using the P21/5w housing and so the fit is loose. As it was written by others that they got their lamps in there snug enough, I thought I did too -- but after a short test drive, it was enough to knock one of the bulbs loose and melt some of the lamp housing. 

To fix it I had to cut away the melt and then I basically drilled a couple of holes in each lamp so I could put a set screw into the bulb holder. Damaged a bit, but now it's set.


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## B5.5 4EVER (Jun 11, 2009)

Itsamoto said:


> Sorry for the dirty van pics, but I think I found a nice compliment to symmetrical mirrors here -- the Depo Angel Eyes.
> 
> I'm very happy with them -- they update the van quite a bit. I don't really care so much for the halos -- not trying to look like BMW or something -- but I love the quad lights, that's what I wanted. It totally reminds me of my first VW (a minty 1979
> Mk1 Scirocco [email protected] km :facepalm: ) -- and of course the South African grill on the Vanagon (which really ignited that desire to have a VW van). :thumbup:
> ...


get a set of DEPO smoked ones and proper bulb holders and call it done... Lights do look nice, I see you gave up on the tranny swap and got sidetracked by the new van... lol...


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Looks good, Itsamoto. Where did you get the headlights?

I might have an idea why the directional light socket did not fit.

In the US the front orange 5w directionals are combined with the front orange 21w turn signals hence the dual filament 21w/5w bulb (a.k.a. 1157) sitting in the 3-pin socket 7D0-953-123-A in the corner lamp.









In Europe the dedicated front white 5w directionals are separate from the dedicated front orange 21w turn signals (as it should be for obvious reasons) hence the single filament 21w bulb (a.k.a. 1156) sitting in the 2-pin socket 701-953-123 in the corner lamp.









I always replace the US spec headlights in my cars with the European ones and I always replace the sockets at the same time so that I can install the proper dedicated turn-signal-only single filament 21w bulbs into the corner lamps. Perhaps there is a slight difference in the shape or the diameter or the bayonet tab locations between the two sockets hence the trouble? Maybe the proper 701-953-123 would've fit better?


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## B5.5 4EVER (Jun 11, 2009)

KBATTPO said:


> Looks good, Itsamoto. Where did you get the headlights?
> 
> I might have an idea why the directional light socket did not fit.
> 
> ...


That is exactly what's needed... I went through this while mounting my Projektzwo lights...


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

B5.5 4EVER said:


> get a set of DEPO smoked ones and proper bulb holders and call it done... Lights do look nice, I see you gave up on the tranny swap and got sidetracked by the new van... lol...


A little side tracked yes (I got to unload some cars here!). 

I'm trying to ease my way back into the garage. See I do things the hard way, I take everything apart (like everything - every pump, every starter, etc) down to the component level -- and leave them in piles on my work bench for 3-6 months. Then relying purely on memory (because I'm too stupid to catalog everything or label them) - put things back together. It works fine as long nobody else disturbs the piles. :laugh:


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> Looks good, Itsamoto. Where did you get the headlights?
> 
> I might have an idea why the directional light socket did not fit.
> 
> ...


Thank you - this is the better way to go - - I couldn't find that part number. The bayonet/housing is different -- just enough that they won't work. 

As the one housing is now melted - - I will do this on the next go around. 

These lights are available at ECS Tuning, FK-shop.de and Ebay.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Itsamoto said:


> A little side tracked yes (I got to unload some cars here!).
> 
> I'm trying to ease my way back into the garage. See I do things the hard way, I take everything apart (like everything - every pump, every starter, etc) down to the component level -- and leave them in piles on my work bench for 3-6 months. Then relying purely on memory (because I'm too stupid to catalog everything or label them) - put things back together. It works fine as long nobody else disturbs the piles. :laugh:


That's why I always try to finish the project as quickly as I can w/o sidetracking. Otherwise will be inevitably scratching my head, whether this part goes in first or that one (took a friend's 65" HDTV apart over at his house several months ago and only recently managed to find the time to repair the motherboard, so now I need to figure out where each of those gazillion screws goes, especially after his wife has "neatened up" the room a bit).

Yet another trick that I have learned over the years is to meticulously photo document everything. I have a Canon 60D DSLR with macro tethered to a computer so instead of documenting where each part goes I simply go snap-snap-snap and then take stuff apart w/o fear.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Itsamoto said:


> These lights are available at ECS Tuning, FK-shop.de and Ebay.


Thanks! The ECS ones are back ordered so I left a request for notification. Will email the FK folks in Germany or buy from Ebay. These angel eyed headlights have grown on me. I would probably prefer them to the one piece design with the low beam projector and the LED wave - those look too "ricey" to me for the lack of a better word. Will probably get the ones with the black inserts behind reflectors as the ones that you have chosen - they resemble the Allroad headlights that make them stand out from the regular C5 A6.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> Thanks! The ECS ones are back ordered so I left a request for notification. Will email the FK folks in Germany or buy from Ebay. These angel eyed headlights have grown on me. I would probably prefer them to the one piece design with the low beam projector and the LED wave - those look too "ricey" to me for the lack of a better word. Will probably get the ones with the black inserts behind reflectors as the ones that you have chosen - they resemble the Allroad headlights that make them stand out from the regular C5 A6.


Yes the "DRL" style ones are very busy -- but I like the one piece design. So it's a trade off -- but the quad lights are certainly easy on the eye.

For what its worth - if you want to comparison shop, I paid 131 Euros for my set (includes the side lamps) on ebay -- with free shipping inside Germany. Looking at todays prices - that was a stellar deal. If you like I will contact the seller to see if they have more at this price. The box is huge - so its wasn't cheap to bring it over, but I did it along with some oem floor mats and eurovan dashboard cubbies to sell (shameless plug) - so the financial damage was spread out.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

€131 is a great deal. Yes, I would be interested, but how did you get them from Germany?


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> €131 is a great deal. Yes, I would be interested, but how did you get them from Germany?


He's sold out -- he had 76 units and sold them all (wow). Perhaps explains why there are now so many on eBay.

I have a friend of a friend in Germany who helped me once and sent some things to me -- but its a lot to ask of people (when the shipments are larger). So, then I moved on to using a freight forwarder based in Germany (mailboxde.com) where you get a mailing address inside of Germany. They will receive and consolidate shipments for a fee -- but its only worth it if you are bringing in a bunch of things at once (or you found something that the seller isn't prepared to ship out of Germany).


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

That's what I thought. Thanks! Will be getting them from ebay then.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

The caveat to doing this is that buying and shipping inside Europe (which is what you do with mail forwarder) -- you will be paying the VAT. So if you find somebody who ships them to North America (such as FK) then you don't pay VAT it can actually be the cheaper (and more dependable route). So price it out, shop around -- it can be wash with the fees, shipping and VAT. 

FWIW: I see FK sells these in a pallet of 8 pairs -- so that might be the way to go if there is enough interest.

Originally I was going to buy through ECS tuning -- a north american distributor - but they don't ship free to Canada, and so those lights would have cost me like $400 CAD.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Still on the subject of US vs Euro lights in front, just stumbled on these. "US Design" LOL...no US T4 lamp looked like this.:screwy:










I guess it's "US Design" though if you want your T4 to look like a 1998 Corolla.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Fresh from the press, had a near miss a few hours ago.

Was driving home today, clear road, brisk pace, suddenly construction with a one lane bottleneck in front, Honda minivan on my right suddenly begins to drift towards me, I am like "WTF"? hit the brakes, let it in front of me and only then see the flashing blinker. Yes, she did switch the turn signal on, no, she did not tap the brakes to let me clear the left lane first, but this is all irrelevant because WHY THERE ARE NO DAMNED FENDER MOUNTED SIDE BLINKERS HERE IN THE U.S.? They have been mandatory in Europe ever since I remember myself. At least the rear blinkers on that Honda were of the proper orange ON-OFF type, not the silly antique all-red ones, combined with either the stop signals or the directionals flashing brighter-dimmer red instead.

Thanks for listening.


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## Itsamoto (May 1, 2014)

KBATTPO said:


> Fresh from the press, had a near miss a few hours ago.
> 
> Was driving home today, clear road, brisk pace, suddenly a construction with a one lane bottleneck in front, Honda minivan on my right suddenly begins to drift towards me, I am like "WTF"? hit the brakes, let it in front of me and only then see the flashing blinker. Yes, she did switch the turn signal on, no, she did not tap the brakes to let me clear the left lane, but this is all irrelevant because WHY THERE ARE NO DAMNED FENDER MOUNTED SIDE BLINKERS HERE IN THE U.S.? They have been mandatory in Europe ever since I remember myself. At least the rear blinkers on that Honda were proper orange ON-OFF type, not the silly antique red ones, combined with either the directionals or worse yet, with the stop signals, flashing brighter-dimmer red instead.
> 
> Thanks for listening.


Makes sense that side blinkers should be there or visible from slightly behind a car (not just perpendicular), good example. I guess its the design of "wrap-around-headlights" that blur this, or don't do this as effectively as old school cars with more traditional (and less fancy molded) lighting housings.

I know my Mk4 Jetta has a very flat headlight design, but is also has a side marker blinker on the side of the front bumper and the little reflector up from the front wheel. So do you think adding side blinkers to a Eurovan is a good idea, seems like a simple enough job to fit something there? It seems like that is the purpose of the little bump out on the European model corner lamps -- to allow adjacent drivers behind the front of the car to see the signal.


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## Phae Phae (Apr 22, 2008)

KBATTPO said:


> Fresh from the press, had a near miss a few hours ago.
> 
> Was driving home today, clear road, brisk pace, suddenly a construction with a one lane bottleneck in front, Honda minivan on my right suddenly begins to drift towards me, I am like "WTF"? hit the brakes, let it in front of me and only then see the flashing blinker. Yes, she did switch the turn signal on, no, she did not tap the brakes to let me clear the left lane, but this is all irrelevant because WHY THERE ARE NO DAMNED FENDER MOUNTED SIDE BLINKERS HERE IN THE U.S.? They have been mandatory in Europe ever since I remember myself. At least the rear blinkers on that Honda were proper orange ON-OFF type, not the silly antique red ones, combined with either the directionals or worse yet, with the stop signals, flashing brighter-dimmer red instead.
> 
> Thanks for listening.


Many newer cars have blinker on the side mirrors now. I try to pay attention to the mirrors. Glad you made it out unscathed.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

The tiny LED mirror blinkers are better than nothing, but the regular fender mounted blinkers IMO are more visible.
Here's a Corvette modified in compliance with the European lighting code.

Fender blinkers:










Dedicated orange ON-OFF rear blinkers:










Nowadays I even see the European asymmetrical low beam on some newer cars around here so DOT while kicking and screaming must be gradually adopting the European code. The days of the horrific and weak 4 little square sealed beams that were mandated by DOT to replace the one piece original aero headlights of the Audi 100 once it crossed the US border and became Audi 5000 are thankfully over.


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## KBATTPO (Jan 15, 2001)

Itsamoto said:


> So do you think adding side blinkers to a Eurovan is a good idea, seems like a simple enough job to fit something there? It seems like that is the purpose of the little bump out on the European model corner lamps -- to allow adjacent drivers behind the front of the car to see the signal.


If this were Audi with its 100% galvanised body I'd probably consider doing this but in the so-prone-to-rusting Eurovan I'd be extremely reluctant to.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

KBATTPO said:


> The tiny LED mirror blinkers are better than nothing, but the regular fender mounted blinkers IMO are more visible.


Probably depends on how much the mirror blinkers wrap around the housing. Most wrap around quite a bit.

I remember thinking that when I first saw this nearly 20 years ago on the E-class (first car I saw it on) I thought it gimmicky but now I think it's a clean and effective design.



KBATTPO said:


> Nowadays I even see the European asymmetrical low beam on some newer cars around here so DOT while kicking and screaming must be gradually adopting the European code.


Sort of yeah, sort of no. It's not entirely about the beam shape but about how much light is in the beam, glare control, etc. US regulations still allow more upward glare than e-code lamps. US permission of the 9003/HB2 bulb (near twin of a European H4 bulb) also encouraged a euro-like beam to some degree, but it's still two different standards.


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## greggearhead (Jul 28, 2002)

OK, 3+ year old thread, I know. Want to thank the OP for the pics and info, as I am quickly heading down the same road. I've got all the parts for a manual swap (I think) and need to do the chains as well, on my 2002. 

Any updates?


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