# Horsepower increase??



## armohagop (Nov 13, 2008)

how much horsepower does water/methanol injection increase?? and is it a noticable difference or even worth it to get?


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## BLSport (Dec 24, 2005)

*Re: Horsepower increase?? (armohagop)*

All depends on your setup; it doesn't really increase power much by itself, but it allows you to tune more aggressively (e.g., more boost, more advance in ignition timing, higher compression, etc.) by providing supplemental (or primary in some cases) charge cooling, as well as and most importantly, detonation suppression.
If you're tuned to take advantage of it, it is highly beneficial and is most definitely a worthwhile investment. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## theAntiRiced (May 7, 2005)

*FV-QR*

Somewhere around 6.2hp if you take into account wind-speed and latitude. You can compute the exact math by taking engine size in liters, dividing by the psi of the pump, multiplying that by the total size in cc of your wai nozzles, correcting that with the percentage of methanol to water as a function of temperature in degrees Celsius, and finally adding pi over your drivetrain.


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## [email protected] (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Horsepower increase?? (armohagop)*

@TheAntiriced:







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Jokes aside, though, what's been said above is on point. Water/methanol injection is not a power adder. Rather, it's a power ENABLER. You can do with it exactly what you can do with much higher octane and significantly cooler intake air temps. Imagine running race fuel on a cold winter day. What could you do with those advantages? The answer is "A LOT"!
It's up to you to make it happen, though. The easiest way to do this is to purchase a ready-made 100 octane program, for example. Or, get in there with your Lemmiwinks, V-tune, or other ECU tool and do your own thing.


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## true2liter (Jul 22, 2004)

*Re: Horsepower increase?? ([email protected])*

That's me; APR 100 with mild tweaks on 93 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## theAntiRiced (May 7, 2005)

*Re: Horsepower increase?? (true2liter)*


_Quote, originally posted by *true2liter* »_That's me; APR 100 with mild tweaks on 93 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I had a bad time with WAI on APR's 100oct file with 93 in the tank:








When I backed out some timing I still didn't like the pull:








Maybe it would have adapted and partied like a rockstar, but I preferred the 93 oct file + timing


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## GERHARD PETZER (Jan 21, 2004)

I found the same thing with my GIAC race map. It did not work well just with W/M. It needed 100oct to make full use of the map. It did make my pump map work a bit better thou.


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## SnowTech.4 (Oct 23, 2009)

Interesting maps.
I see what you mean by all the timing pull on the 100 tune. The thing that stikes me there is how much getts pulled early on. It looks as if you might need a bit more injection a bit earlier in order to stop the detonation.
What fluid was being used?


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## theAntiRiced (May 7, 2005)

*Re: (SnowTech.4)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SnowTech.4* »_Interesting maps.
I see what you mean by all the timing pull on the 100 tune. The thing that stikes me there is how much getts pulled early on. It looks as if you might need a bit more injection a bit earlier in order to stop the detonation.
What fluid was being used?

I saw that as soon as it started to spool it started pulling timing, but it didn't suddenly drop off once the WAI kicked on so I pretty much abandoned the 100 maps and kept working on the 93 file.
The mixture used was a 50/50 mix of methanol purchased from either a local race track or sourced from HEET bottles and distilled water, then a splash of -40° windshield washer fluid to trip the sensor (-40° is typically 45% methanol). The track had meth for $4/gal so that was the most economical way.


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## SnowTech.4 (Oct 23, 2009)

Was it possible to start injection a bit earlier-on with the system you had?
The fluid sounds good.


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## theAntiRiced (May 7, 2005)

*Re: (SnowTech.4)*

It started spraying around 10 psi; it was MAF based. I could have set it earlier, yea. 
I do miss the GTI sometimes. After the transmission exploded twice I put it back to stock and traded it in. The WAI kit is still in a box in my room...


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## Tommy Verrochi (Jul 20, 2009)

The way I understand it... It is a cooler burning fuel, that packs a bigger explosion as opposed to gas. With timing adjustments it will start to increase your power, plus the fact that it allows you to run higher boost safely. 
Is this correct?


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## SnowTech.4 (Oct 23, 2009)

Close.
The energy content of methanol CC for CC is actually lower than that of gasoline.
Methanol burns much cooler, and is also far less prone to a rapid, disorderly fame front, aka detonation.
By cooling both IATs and cylinder temps, along with this ncie stable burn, you drastically reduce the tendency to detonate in the cylinder, while also acting as an intercooler to get better air charge density and in the end a bit more oxygen in the chamber.
The timing increases are simply taking advantage of all this to get more power. You can also increase boost to take advantage.


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## theAntiRiced (May 7, 2005)

*Re: (SnowTech.4)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SnowTech.4* »_Close.
The energy content of methanol CC for CC is actually lower than that of gasoline.
Methanol burns much cooler, and is also far less prone to a rapid, disorderly fame front, aka detonation.

With the exception of burning temperature, this can also be applied to different octane rated gasolines; by volume, 100 octane has less chemical potential energy than 93 octane, and 93 has less than 87.


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## Jurjen (Oct 9, 2002)

*Re: (theAntiRiced)*

I run APR100 on 93 octane on a stage2+ b5 S4, and the car loves it. 
Its much quicker (although the butt dyno couldn't tell any difference), I'd guestimate 20-30hp gain. Definitely the best bang for the buck mod after ecu tuning.


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## sledge0001 (Oct 7, 2007)

*Re: (Jurjen)*

Actually I noticed a HP increase when just adding W/M to the mix on the dyno...
We ran the car 4 times and it was @ 294WHP after a bit of heat soaking... Then added only W/M and no adjustments and it went to 313WHP
Video Here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBOClLqmPPM
Dyno Sheets Here:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4676716


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