# E85 conversions DIY



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*E85 conversions DYI*

http://e85forum.com/viewtopic....rt=15
1 cold start issues - solved by manual switch to 5th injector
cise & e85 gave me headaches restarting. vapor lock mysteries i never solved in the check valves, alcohol or injectors themselves
but the good news is all of this is solved with the manual 5th injector switch (use a fuse please:FIRE)M5IS
2 cis e 20% richer: 
(i don't have an o2)
i personally use a 10k potentiometer in place of the eng temp sensor (i don't trust my sensor)
it could be hooked up in series to the eng temp sensor to always richen only...for warm up only...not me
some might have the best luck adjusting the dpr itself, i've never adjusted mine and wonder if that would narrow the effective range of overall adjustability
with the knob cranked and 5th injector on however, my 16v had no problems starting in 10F with summer blend e, on a tractor battery!
my ISV is hooked up - 16v
i also turn the knob all the way down on the highway to get 30 mpg - the way i drive
the knob extends to both extremes of dpr potential and then some
20% a/f is the total adjustability
3 max power: although not neccessary to drive around fine 
the cis lean problem in high rpms is worse so i added another curve to the "cis funnel"
since the e85 depends on adjusted dpr so heavily, dpr tweak is used up already
in other words, when i reached down to crank the knob fully clockwise on top speed runs, there still wasn't enough on e85 so i had to raise the plate there









_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 4:17 AM 3-26-2009_


_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 3:21 AM 4-13-2010_


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: E85 conversions DIY (EL DRIFTO)*

recurve the fuel dist
i resleaved the cone around the sensor to richen up the big end
10k pot
































this is how i got my 16v scir to rich enough for e85 up top
it restricts the flow 20% (only to the plate) once it's making some power.
plate goes up 20% more to let same air through
i used to see aftermarket sleeves available in the 80s
this is the only corner i could get 2 10mm bolts in after grinding them to clear the plate. 
this na setup (130hp) only pulls the plate up half as high as it could go (210 hp worth of air/160 actual fuel)
on a sc setup i prev had, the fins went to the top of the plate's travel. then it seemed like 160 crank hp (no fmu) had the plate to the top with the 20% restrictor fins in place. 
this works great for me, more fuel only when i need it, seamless
i used a piece of hvac tin, tin snips, sharpie
cut out a v shape with rounded bottom, 4 vertical slits, needle nose, 2 bolts, grinder, thread lock


_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 11:57 PM 3-25-2009_


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: E85 conversions DIY (EL DRIFTO)*

oops forgot to mention the need to regap the spark plugs to 2/3 original gap
for whatever reason, ignition just goes out, like too wide of a gap
i got rid of tripple electrode
you need a colder spark plug because preignition will happen before detonation with e
i have got better mpg out of my scir on e than 93 gas by way overadvancing my timing
the speed of ethanol burns faster the richer 
& slower the leaner so more than usual advance can yield mpg if you barely push on the gas
although that much timing is beyond max power @ wot
2 identicle engines are going down the road, one has gas, another e:
if one engine has less heat coming out of the radiator with the same load, what would a physics geek tell you?

_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 12:28 AM 3-26-2009_


_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 3:27 AM 4-13-2010_


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: E85 conversions DIY (EL DRIFTO)*

as far as the things i've tried it in:
2 cycle was epic fail, although when it did run (wot only) it had a pipe!
the 2 cycle oil attached itself in globs to the bottom of that can in less than a year. i haven't tried any since
o2s are good for e, 100% e compatable, they measure oxygen, they'll help trim if they're on line (with any blend)
in several fords 96 3.8, 2004 4.6, 2005 lincoln
the only thing to do in an obdII car without chip is fool the maf sensor.
this won't help it start (start is from memory, no o2 online) - sux
when it does start, the o2 won't help it until it warms up. this used to be 10 seconds, but with e, it may be 2 mins. i "powerbrake" my van when it's cold, when the o2s come on, it starts to move and good to go
this won't help wot. wot operates off memory, no o2, memory is 20% lean!
up to 3/4 throttle works fine
a year ago, when i passionately hated the oil man (i don't now!), i was filling my work van up with 33 gallons of e ($100 right out of the oil mans pocket every week so i thought)
in that hasty setup, i just cut a 2' section of 1" pvc conduit and stuck it through the maf. the same air had to go 20% faster through the sensor to go around the obstruction, since the o2s agree, obd2 actually sends 20% more fuel, all the time, unless you wot...
thousands of $ of gas avoided later, i use 87 now

mowers:
on the cheap briggs with the butterfly fuel pump in the carb, i just started it with brake clean and kept the choke on. 
this eliminated the ability to adjust the rpms which was a couple of spring adjustments
on a nice bowl carb, just ream out the main jet in the bottom. don't even have to remove the bowl. 
main jet is usually that big 1/2" nut that holds the bowl on


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: E85 conversions DIY (EL DRIFTO)*

EDIT: blending is not straight math 
ethanol has an incredible effect on octane & only slight blends with 67 octane gas will yield way higher octane than straight math
i tuned my scvr on winter e70 
i only remembered that the blend changed when the car started running lean after a fillup


_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 3:31 AM 4-13-2010_


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: E85 conversions DIY (EL DRIFTO)*

EDIT: as far as ignition timing is concerned:
wot maps pretty much stay the same, unless you get more timing from cooler fuel
but the speed of ethanol burn depends on how rich or lean the af ratio is....
so @ lean cruising af, more timing is needed to get good mpg & throttle response


_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 3:33 AM 4-13-2010_


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: E85 conversions DIY (EL DRIFTO)*

i've seen this twin cis pump assembly on cis v6 & v8 mercedes
it should deliver the same volume as a 930 pump
these both have an electronic "fuel charger" (not pictured) that increases the voltage at the pumps, on boost, to 18 volts
more than 1 company makes these, mine is home made








scvr, e85, stock injectors








to get my fmu to rise fast enough, i used a modified central locking pump on a hobb switch to send 10 psi to my fmu
adjustable needle valve on dash, 10k pot, f pres gauge on hood
also runs without a maf, isv, o2, eng temp sns, intake air temp, etc
speed density, 7 psi, 320 hp










_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 12:04 PM 3-26-2009_


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Awesome information.. i'll be watching this.
Steve-


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (BSD)*

i've concluded some fmu behavior
imagine the oe fpr operating, the spring determines the press, the valve opens and closes to keep oe pres in the system, pres can't change, volume only changes. here comes the fmu, it starts slowly, gradually increasing the press behind the reg on the return line. automatically the oe regulator starts to loosen it's valve as the fmu tightens it's. the result is you don't start to see enrichening from the fmu until it overcomes the oe fuel pressure. 
cars work with 35 psi systems or lower all the time. since real cars dont fmu, i've never heard this explantion. 10 psi boost will get you to 120 psi fuel. the reality is with press @ 75 psi, the fmu with the adjuster closed all the way won't actually do anything until 8 psi.
when the return line to the tank is pinched by the fmu to send the fuel pres higher than the reg, the cis dpr return hose, (the third hose to the fpr) has to be rerouted to behind the fmu, (if you don't the dpr return hose get's it's press increased as well for FAIL). this results in the entire system bleeding down when you shut it off like vapor lock, (since the dpr return hose is now unchecked by the fpr when you shut the car off)
5th injector: after some r&d, it seems a manual switch to the 5th injector will always get her started, no matter how vapor locked (i was switching on the fuel pump manually, getting under the hood to push up the cis sensor plate to re prime the injectors...PITA)


_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 4:16 AM 3-27-2009_


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## FAINFAB (Jan 2, 2009)

*Re: (EL DRIFTO)*

WTF? Im lost. Your Crazy Joe







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Did Junkyardracer ever get rid of that GTI shell? PM me about it.


_Modified by FAINFAB at 9:26 AM 3-30-2009_


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## piledriver (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: E85 conversions DIY (EL DRIFTO)*

Thanks for the E85 info, I have been looking for just this.
I have been running CIS-E or CIS-M meters for years now with no computer, and simply by using the CO and DPR curent adjustments (manual set, using a resistor and a pot, or physically adjusting the DPR) you can get ~ any amount of fuel you could possibly need.
I get ~35 MPG in the CIS converted 914, and ditching the CPR was the best thing I ever did.
(The Cabby is still + Lambda/stock, but that will be changing soon)


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (FAINFAB)*

pm sent


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## wclark (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: E85 conversions DYI (EL DRIFTO)*

The author correctly states the 1986 date as that which most manufacturers certified their vehicles were compatible with ethanol. This was in the context of 5-10% ethanol, however the issues of seals and fuel lines degrading in the presence of ethanol would be the similar whether 5% or 85% ethanol is used.
However I found reports online stating such compatibility refer to post-1986 vehicles (in the case of VW and Audi in particular). First thing that hits me is "post-" in the date suggests at earliest, 1987 model year are compatible. At worst vehicles built after 12/31/1986 are compatible. For VW that would be the tail end of the '87 model year build (1/1/87-4/1/87).
So if you have an '88 model year or later the should be no doubt, but there is a question in my mind regarding some vehicles built during the 1986 and 1987 model years. Does anyone have any VW publication referenced info as to exactly when it was that VW product was considered ethanol compatible?
I have very little known experience with ethanol containing fuel in my '86 hilllcimber. Mass started requiring it at minimum 5.9% levels in 2006 but I switched to Sunoco GT100 in 2005 and didnt go back to using pump gas until I installed the 9A the middle of last summer and I used up the GT100 I had on hand. GT100 does not state whether it contains ethanol or not.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: E85 conversions DYI (wclark)*

we've had 10% ethanol blends in various stations around here for 20 years, i've never seen fuel sticky like our 85...
thinking back on my 85 exp, it seems that most of the stickiness was the section of hose returning fuel into the tank down from the pump...
it dissolved it like peanut butter completely, quickly, like the mower fuel hose, instant almost, overnight for sure
black and white difference
i wish i knew what would clean out the stickiness, since it would be quickly found...
no other leaks popped up over several months...
the 85 had that plastic box fuel pump, no problems...
is there a way to tell my vw birthday from the vin?
if you started running something with as much as 25% e in it, a/f ratios wouldn't be the same as 100 gas


_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 4:17 AM 4-1-2009_


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## wclark (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: E85 conversions DYI (EL DRIFTO)*

In a CIS-E or CIS-L system the O2 sensor, being a Lambda sensor doesnt care much what fuel is being burned, it will simply report leaner or richer than stochiometric (lambda 1.0) and the ECU will compensate within the range of the control available to the ECU. As you have demonstrated the CIS-E system, under manual control is capable of adjusting the AFR for E85, so the ECU can do it automatically too. Where CIS-E runs into trouble is open loop. During warmup and WOT, when the O2 sensor is no longer used, instead fuel enrichment (DPR current) is driven by an algorithm of engine coolant temp, RPM and load, assuming standard gasoline as the fuel, the engine will run lean (lambda probably above 1.0 and certainly not in the intended .85-.95 range). One could conceivably compensate for most of this by inserting an added resistance in series with the CTS. That would provide a continuous bias to the open loop enrichment formula by fooling the engine into thinking it is colder than it really is. 
CIS-L could deal with the WOT problem by doing what Klaus at Innovate did to a Cabby he modified for better WOT enrichment. Instead of having the computer go open loop at WOT, he disconnected the WOT switch from the ECU and connected it to a relay. Into the relay he fed NB simulations from an LM-1's analog outputs, one set to produce 4.5Vand Lambda 1.0 and the second to do the same at Lambda .9. At WOT the relay switched in the second set of NB simulations and the engine simply corrected fuel delivery to drive to what it thinks is Lambda 1.0. This is an elegant solution that would work nicely for E85 if compatible with the rest of the vehicle. It doesnt work on the VW spec Bosch CIS-E though. I tried it. The CIS-E computers I tried (for the RD and PL engines) detects the level change, or the momentary open circuit when the relay jumps to the other input and switches to some sort of error detection mode where it initially ignores the input and then over several seconds - assuming the input remains constant - it slowly drives the fuel to the correct (.45V input) level by increasing or decreasing DPR current normally. The result is several seconds of lean operation when initially going WOT, and several seconds of rich operation when lifting back off WOT, not what you want to see. I tried several circuits to smooth the switchover and to keep the ECU input from detecting things like a momentary open, but I couldnt fool it well enough to prevent this behavior.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: E85 conversions DYI (wclark)*

yep that delay is PITA!
good reason not to use a module for racing
the only set up i had that involved actively changing ETC was supercharged
10k pot, hobb switch just fully opened circut @ 3 psi 
the delay was frustrating although it didn't matter at the time [email protected]
anything but stabbing the clutch at liftoff was face in the windshield super rich, untrackable
it seems like changing ECT with the knob made the delay shorter than opening the circut, not an na problem for me
have you had any exp with disconnecting the wire between the ignition and gas brain (cis e) for diff fuel?
i think the main problem i had with cranking dpr and e85 was the inherent bad funnel angle got unacceptable
the entire dpr range (20% a/f) is used for warm up, that may be 4 times longer and the car's colder all the time on e
so half way to anywhere i was going i couldn't get max power for 20 minutes or ever if it was cold, even if i cranked ECT open
since i haven't had that sc setup for 6 yrs, i forgot all about the delay
in my habbits of sc cars and fooling computers, mainly ECT (pre 94), having to turn the knob up meant fuel wasn't being metered properly
there wasn't boost in the manifold to manipulate the hobb switch like usual
so i went after the meter
anybody that's fooled with dpr knows how much power they're missing up there
my car was way faster on all fuels after my third angle - very happy
i consider the third full load angle a neccessity for performance, like e85










_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 11:32 AM 4-2-2009_


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: E85 conversions DYI (EL DRIFTO)*

this too i guess...
sc application: (no fuel recurve, no fins, all fmu & dpr, 230 chp)
my whole system is based off a 10k pot to the ecu eng temp
this changes the dpr as much as possable
when i was trying to get better mpg, i actually reduced the min to the dpr below 5...it has a "floor" it produces a predetermined min if it's getting any volts at all
the place to start: once the car's warmed up, set the idle co screw to the highest idle with the knob turned all the way down (0 ohms), tune from there
to get the car to start, the knob has to be cranked (10k ohms), unless it's warm or summer
after it starts, it only takes a minute to need the knob cranked all the way down (0 ohms)
hobb switch: at 3 psi boost, a hobb switch opens the knob circut entirely (infinity ohms), this sends max to dpr on boost only
fmu: i also had an fmu on this set up. when the return line to the tank is pinched by the fmu to send the fuel pres higher than the reg, the cis dpr return hose, (the third hose to the fpr) has to be rerouted to behind the fmu, (if you don't the dpr return hose get's it's press increased as well for FAIL). this results in the entire system bleeding down when you shut it off like vapor lock, (since the dpr return hose is now unchecked by the fpr when you shut the car off)
5th injector: after some r&d, it seems a manual switch to the 5th injector will always get her started, no matter how vapor locked (i was switching on the fuel pump manually, getting under the hood to push up the cis sensor plate to re prime the injectors...PITA)
fp gauge: this is all good until the visible, while you're driving, fuel press gauge reveals that you're pressure is starting to go down instead of up on the big end
more pump: i've used cis pumps (my last 230 hp setup was 1 cis pump, 1/4 xylene, 3/4 92 octane gas)
i've used twin cis pumps on my scvr (oe on cis v6, v8 mercedes)
i've used fuel charging circut gizmos that increase the voltage at the pump only under boost (homemade ones even)
i've used xylene (has way more btus than gas)


_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 10:39 PM 4-7-2009_


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: E85 conversions DYI (EL DRIFTO)*

to run 2.0 16v with 1.8 16v ig brain max power:
unplug the knock sensor to get away from the ig computer setting it's own base timing at every start up
this retards timing 12 degrees so you'll have to crank the dist up 12 degrees right away
although the computer defaults to full knock ignition retard (12 degrees), the basic 1.8 ignition advance curve remains
this allows manual timing adjustment, since the computer normally sets it's own base with map
unplug the vac line to ig brain-
this line only advances timing when there's vacuum in the manifold - partial throttle
that's why the idle goes up when you connect it
this will keep any extra advance away for dyno tuning safely
keeping in mind the volumetric eff/timing vs rpms differences of the 2.0 vs the 1.8, watch for detonation in mid range rpms
set timing
i have an ass dyno
when that's good, reconnecting the ig vac line for gas mileage will probably cause detonation so,
install an adjustable bleeder valve on a T in line from manifold to ig brain to "bleed off" vac adv
no knock sensor...


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: E85 conversions DYI (EL DRIFTO)*

another way to richen cis-e.
do the airflow meter adjustment by the dpr milliamp reading thing, then there is also a alen set screw under a flat head screw on the dpr between the o-rings. it adjusts the flow through the dpr. then use a wot enrichmont relay.
some interesting research would be to see if cis-e was ever used in the Brazil after Brazil got into ethanol.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: E85 conversions DYI (weeblebiker)*

has cis been in brazil in the last 30 yrs...
according to aeromotive
paper fuel filters swell in alcohol
get a metal fuel filter
if you have volume problems (1100hp)
oe filters are paper inside


_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 2:07 PM 6-6-2009_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: E85 conversions DYI (EL DRIFTO)*

hmm any metal drop in replacement fuel filter?
I am running E85 also since last August
in a '87 scirocco
stock fuel system (including filter)
2L16v
a bit higher than stock compression (head and block decked for cleanup and aba gasket)
megasquirt 2-extra code v2.2 box
55lb low impedance injectors
td04-14T turbo










_Modified by weeblebiker at 1:27 AM 6-13-2009_


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: E85 conversions DYI (weeblebiker)*

i haven't had any problems under 300 hp range with our oe filters
the tunershop guys showed me some clear reuseable ones
i didn't get any info
they had mentioned an 1100 whp TT mustang "seizing" the pumps once the filters swelled from the, new to the mustang, e
the story was the e85 let them turn the boost up from 15 to 20 psi,
then the e85 freaked out the pumps which was actually the filters...
aeromotive mentioned the solution


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: E85 conversions DYI (EL DRIFTO)*

in that hasty setup, i just cut a 2' section of 1" pvc conduit and stuck it through the maf. the same air had to go 20% faster through the sensor to go around the obstruction, since the o2s agree, obd2 actually sends 20% more fuel, all the time, unless you wot...








after discovering that the 02s bring it all together, if the sensor in the meter is seeing 20% more velocity, tossing more it's way was just the same with a piece of hvac tin. my biggest concern was it getting sucked into the motor, more than 1 yr in place...

























i'm currently getting 15 mpg this way since OBD2 ignores bad maf readings for perfect 02 reading. IF i were to pour e85 in, which i have, it's seamlessly flexfuel (except for cold starts, CEL and any throttle over 75%)
EDIT:
1. the pic i shot this morn rushing out the door was 1/2" conduit stuffed into the maf, not 1" conduit, which is 20% of the maf ID
2. 15 mpg on 5000 lb ford e250 electrical van
3. the hvac tin is about 3"x1/4" strip with 2 fangs cut in 1/2" up to grab 1 side of sensor, the rest wraps around to the other side tight


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