# : ) Why NOT to install a turbo on the G60 8v engine that was engineered for a supercharger!



## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

I thought I would stir this topic up a bit... time to bring this back for the 8v guys thinking about real performance  

First of all I want to start with no dis-respect to all of you that have the turbo running on your 8v. We have many turbo customers and we appreciate the business and support. 
I have done more than a few myself and they can at times run correctly and be fun. 
Still this combination is slower than a supercharger on this engine can cause some serious nightmares and frustration. 

I've owned and ran many a turbo car...I have one right now. I'm switching back to SC. As you all know we sell both turbo kits and supercharger kits. 

* The G60 8V engine has very heavy weight internal parts. 
* The crank, rods, pistons and even the harmonic balancer are very heavy and I mean very heavy, tank like. 
* These parts and the engine were specifically engineered for instant, smooth and the long boost curve of a supercharger. The management is also designed and engineered for the boost of a supercharger. This is a very important part of this. 
* The power band on the G60 8v is short...they pull to about 6k RPM. The turbo just starts to go at about the mid point of the RPM band. 
* The flow of the head works better with the smooth linear boost of the supercharger. 
* The digifant 1 G60 management system can have some serious issues trying to deal with the boost curve spiking in and out, jumping around. 
* Any turbo is just a lower performance option, less torque and really works against what was intended here. 

I've done a few of these set ups in our shop here and sold at a least a dozen turbo kits for the G60. So I'm speaking from experience. 

The best choice for this engine is the good old g-lader or another positive displacement supercharger. 

Bottom line, the turbo on this engine will not match the performance of the supercharger FACT! 

I've had a $1000 dollars on the table for anyone that can beat our 1/4 mile time with a supercharger on the G60 8v engine running the digifant management, stock engine internals. The money has sat on the table for now over 10 years! 

Ok, lets flames away....


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Ok I'll bite . 

Things I absolutely agree with: 

1: heavy internals; yes they are and yes it can cause spooling problems especially with a big journal bearing turbo. 

2: management; the factory digi 1 ECU is without question set up for the supercharger and the timing curve especially is not turbo friendly. 

I don't agree with: 

1: Cylinder head flow; Who says you can't have smooth linear boost with a turbo? :screwy: That's what electronic boost control is for. 

2: Power band; Ok the power band is done at 6000 rpms.... big deal, just match the turbo to the power band. I mean come on, stop and think about it, deisels have a narrow power band, and oh wait a minute they also have very heavy internals. But there are turbo deisels out there that make HUGE power. 

Other comments on turbo vs super: 

Turbos are lighter than superchargers and don't eat power to make power. They are also capable of producing and sustaining FAR more boost than a supercharger. They are however more complicated to install in general. 

Comments concerning Digifant 1 engine management in general: 

It's technology that is well over 20 years old, it's fairly primitive and the boards are known to fail. I have over 20 Digi 1 ECUs that are burnt up in a box in the garage. ANY standalone system currently on the market that can control fuel and spark is more capable than Digi 1.


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

Prof315 said:


> Ok I'll bite .
> 
> Things I absolutely agree with:
> 
> ...


 Thank you for biting back  

* My point with the head flow is that it is limited. The turbo will boost up and try to cram more air than the head can flow and hold it back. 

* Your diesel comparo is jut not apples to apples. These engines and vehicles get seriously loaded to assist in getting the boost up early. 

* The old argument that supers take power to turn is really just null and void. Every action of energy requires a equal action... A turbo takes exhaust energy and will hold back the flow to make it. The power consumption is their for both. It is really just about making it efficiently. 

* Your weight point is also really not something that will make a substantial improvement on performance. Pretty sure they are really close to the same weight. 

If someone can make a Stock G60v turbo on stock management run quicker on this engine than the BBM Twin Screw... I have $1000 bucks to give them. 

I have had maybe 6+ turbo cars and I hate the lag....shift....wait...wait...ah boost. Shift.....wait....wait boost. This really sucks on the 8v and makes them slower! 
Even the small ball bearing turbos lag... 
Supercharger comes on like a light switch and nearly instant. Makes for a very quick car and an amazing match for the 8v. 

The bottom line is that a supercharger is quicker on this engine and to this day it is still a fact. 
My main reason for this post is that most people just think otherwise and get caught up in all the turbo hype. 
I'd choose a really good supercharged engine over any turbo engine every time.


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## petethepug (May 25, 2001)

Turbo lag .... It's a thing of the past and there's a ton of ways to get around it now. It's a privilege to have driven a Saab 900 turbo and a 930 turbo. Those motors come alive when the turbo spools up. It's a little embarrassing off the line though.

The bottom line is that early turbo cars didn't have the technology (ecu) or turbine technology that's available today. With that being said, a turbo can easily exceed the limits of a G Ladder. If you put a turbo on a car engineered (ecu) and designed (G60 head flowed for 158 hp) for a positive displacement charger (G Ladder / Lysholm, etc) limits are set on it's performance. Beyond that throw better parts, tuning & cash at anything and you can remedy the turbo lag a turbo G60 is inherent to. Specificly I think that's what Johnny's say'n


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

I have had cars with the latest and greatest ball bearing turbo tech...they still lag and take time to come on. 
Unless you go really small... even then there is a pause for the boost to hit. 
I think the best modern match for a turbo is a car with an automated manual. That keeps them in the boost. 

I'll up my anti.... 
Take a stock G60 engine run any turbo you want with any stand alone. 
I'll still put my money on the supercharger on this engine. 
Turbo no matter what, does not match this engine as well as a supercharger.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

JBETZ said:


> I have had cars with the latest and greatest ball bearing turbo tech...they still lag and take time to come on.
> Unless you go really small... even then there is a pause for the boost to hit.
> I think the best modern match for a turbo is a car with an automated manual. That keeps them in the boost.
> 
> ...


 Damn and I don't have a single PG laying around any more. The last one went to the scrapper in my totalled 90 rado. (as extra weight/money)


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

One thing you stated concerning the PG cylinder head I'm not going to argue too hard about, it is somewhat limited flow wise but that is inherent to most mass produced OEM 2V/cylinder heads. 

And please don't misunderstand me, I like forced induction PERIOD . Turbo, supercharger they both rock. I do think the G-Lader is a misbegotten POS, great idea in theory with horrid execution in reality. Scroll compressors are quite efficient, just ask the A/C industry, but definately not so good for a supercharger.


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## petethepug (May 25, 2001)

I never thought about that. I'm running a Lysholm on my LG (fridge).

That's the intrigue of the G60 though. Just the fact that it runs despite all it's shortcomings. 

The grey market 914-6 I ran a 2.7 w/ 2x3 webers. I enjoyed that same freak as what's going on in my G60. It's a hell of a lot more comfortable not having a 225 hp motor inches away from your back. On 90+ days its was no fun to sit in a black, air cooled car at a stoplight. On the other hand it's the only car you can drive in the rain above 60mph with the top off and stay dry. 

Just the fact my G60 is in performance running condition shocks the $/:! out of most who know what it is. The more obsolete the G60 becomes the higher its value. That's just a VW & Porsche factiod.


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## rodperformance (Oct 9, 2010)

*Power band*

Hi there folk's i think it's a battle of delivery,so everyone is good.you chose between instant power or vtec type of power,my self having run both i like them for diferent reasons like drag i would go turbo but circuit with lots of turns i like the sc.daily drive also would like a sc,later guys Roderick


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

Prof315 said:


> Damn and I don't have a single PG laying around any more. The last one went to the scrapper in my totalled 90 rado. (as extra weight/money)


 We scrapped about ten G60 PG engines when we moved the shop from WA to OR 
Wish we would have kept a few now...:banghead:


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## efritsch (Aug 21, 2002)

I've still got the one that I pulled out of my Syncro with 589,000 on it. I replaced it with an ABA and I have to say, the ABA with the G60 hauls my Syncro Wagon much, much faster but I wouldn't switch to a turbo for the life of me.


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

efritsch said:


> I've still got the one that I pulled out of my Syncro with 589,000 on it. I replaced it with an ABA and I have to say, the ABA with the G60 hauls my Syncro Wagon much, much faster but I wouldn't switch to a turbo for the life of me.


 now is that in km ore miles :laugh: 
the ABA is a nice engine too...10% more displacement, lighter internals and great rod stroke ratio. 
ok, old timer...just how old are you? 
we have had a few customers up in Canada that did the G60 swap into their syncro vanagons...those guys love this engine for the meaty torque. 
:thumbup: to the north


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## KirinC (Jan 11, 2010)

JBETZ said:


> We scrapped about ten G60 PG engines when we moved the shop from WA to OR
> Wish we would have kept a few now...:banghead:


 
Man I wish more than anything you guys were still up here..  

Bought a g60 a year ago and I was also just recently informed you were in auburn, where I live. Could have walked down to your shop with my charger...forget shipping. 
Good thing it needs apex strips now that you're in another state! :facepalm: 

Either way, I have to agree with you; I love the G-lader and would prefer it over a turbo any day- For this motor at least. Everyone else seems to tell me otherwise, and ensure me my charger is going to blow up...Guess they're Jealous. Haha, 20k since a rebuild from you guys and still going strong-ish. Even without 4" of apex strips :thumbup:


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## fox-16v (Jun 30, 2009)

Why could full throttle shifting not alleviate the lag? Good porting of the head and intake manifold with big valves would help wouldn't it? I am building a g60t right now and this thread caught my eye..

Also, you said stock internals but let's here some specifics for this challenge. Any weight reductions? Flywheel mods?


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

fox-16v said:


> Why could full throttle shifting not alleviate the lag? Good porting of the head and intake manifold with big valves would help wouldn't it? I am building a g60t right now and this thread caught my eye..
> 
> Also, you said stock internals but let's here some specifics for this challenge. Any weight reductions? Flywheel mods?


 Your going to full throttle shift with a cable actuated 02A. Hope you have a twelve pack of spare transmissions on hand. 

Sure you could do a lightweight flywheel and harmonic balancer....still no go and little chance. 
You see if you do this with a turbo...well then only fair that it would be done on the supercharger engine that it went against. So turbo will still loose. I'd bet the super engine would still whoop it even with it running a light weight flywheel and balancer.


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

I don't think too many people have a otherwise stock PG converted to turbo. Pretty much all of them end up being some sort of ABA/PG Hybrid turbo. Or even mostly a 2.0 ABA with a turbo and running Digi 1 management. And then almost always some sort of aftermarket cam, and head porting.

It kinda gets to a point when you say, well If I'm changing the head to a crossflow, the G-lader to a turbo and the management to standalone, why not just build a 16v turbo and produce way more power for not much more money?

And that said, if you want to run a fast 1/4 mile time why start with an 8v counter flow? Why not at least start with a 16v or for that matter a VR6 swap is quite easy to source these days, and a budget turbo build on one of them can make a quick 300hp. Hell if you're running standalone anyways, you could put a 1.8T right into your what ever trans your running behind your G60. You could probably buy a complete 1.8T with reasonable miles for about the same as a good turbo to put on an 8v.

I no longer look at this thing as "what can I do with this engine", I look at it like "how fast can I go for X amount of dollars"


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

G60 Carat said:


> I don't think too many people have a otherwise stock PG converted to turbo. Pretty much all of them end up being some sort of ABA/PG Hybrid turbo. Or even mostly a 2.0 ABA with a turbo and running Digi 1 management. And then almost always some sort of aftermarket cam, and head porting.
> 
> It kinda gets to a point when you say, well If I'm changing the head to a crossflow, the G-lader to a turbo and the management to standalone, why not just build a 16v turbo and produce way more power for not much more money?
> 
> ...


I will agree, yes people do all kinds of crazy combos and builds in these VW's.
However I do not agree that most people do all of these crazy custom combinations.
And this is coming from one of the companies that probably makes and sells more crazy combo parts than any other.
The vast majority of people just do bolt on parts and performance...
And yes if some do go crazy with their builds, most people go with the better flowing 16v and 20v engines.
Your point about how fast you can go for X amount of dollars is a good one. Time labor and parts are all part of this equation. So the best bang for your bucks is to keep the G60 8V and strap up a good modified g-lader or the BBM twin screw.


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

....or Nitrous. :laugh:


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

G60 Carat said:


> ....or Nitrous. :laugh:


like playing with dynamite on the digifant system


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## efritsch (Aug 21, 2002)

JBETZ said:


> now is that in km ore miles :laugh:
> the ABA is a nice engine too...10% more displacement, lighter internals and great rod stroke ratio.
> ok, old timer...just how old are you?
> we have had a few customers up in Canada that did the G60 swap into their syncro vanagons...those guys love this engine for the meaty torque.
> :thumbup: to the north


It's in km, but it was the original PG that I finally yanked out. ABA with a 13lb flywheel is really nice. It's going to be expensive in gas if I don't stop driving the living hell out of it like I have been the last 4 days.

I am old enough to know better and young enough to do it again. I could not believe how much difference that 7 or 8 lbs off the flywheel and that extra little bit of displacement made. Next stop, aluminum pulley set.

Here's a serious question for you though. Would the change to the ABA account for a drop in boost pressure? When I pulled the PG out (7 months ago) the charger made 11-12lbs. Stage 3 charger, RSR outlet, rebuilt by you in 2010, stock pulley (I was too lazy to swap the 68 back on and was hoping running the stock pulley would prolong its life). Now that the 2.0L is in there, its making 8-9lbs of boost. Sounds fine, not blowing huge amounts of oil or anything.

Also, should I upgrade my injectors? I'm pretty sure that they are stock sized ones.


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

Yes, the 2.0L ABA is 10% larger so 10% less boost with the same size of charger pulley.
At the boost level you are at the stock injectors are just fine.


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## scrapper (Feb 17, 2007)

QUOTE


> *JBETZ*
> I've done a few of these set ups in our shop here and sold at a least a dozen turbo kits for the G60. So I'm speaking from experience.


If you never seen any turbo produce a qtr mile time better then the charger guys what is the best you have seen done? Of course with stock internals etc like you mentioned at your shop.


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

scrapper said:


> QUOTE
> 
> If you never seen any turbo produce a qtr mile time better then the charger guys what is the best you have seen done? Of course with stock internals etc like you mentioned at your shop.


I'll be honest with you. I have never ran one myself at the track....a G60 turbo that is. Ran many of turbo cars tho. I can tell you this I've seen and raced some at the track....they are horribly slower and I mean horribly!

We held an event called Autoblitzkrieg at the Woodburn Or. drag strip... I think four or five years back. I had the $1000 dolla deal down for the ABA 8V Mk3 guys. We ended up racing two identical Mk3 GTI's. Ours had the twin screw BBM Stage III supercharger and the other car had the Kinetic / CTS Turbo Stage III kit. We both ran the exact same tires. Both cars were at about the same hp, the turbo car had a bit more hp. 
We smoked this car so bad... I actually felt bad. Beat it by over 1 full sec on the 1/4 mile track.
These were equal weight, same engine, same tires....same cars. I mean it wasn't even close...it was a slaughter!
Superchargers on the 8v are quick!
To answer your question....haven't ever seen one get into the 13's, they pretty much suck on the G60 engine.
"edit" turbos pretty much suck on all 8v's. Unless you want to spend a ton of money and try to prove something, bad match for the 8'v.


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## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

JBETZ said:


> We scrapped about ten G60 PG engines when we moved the shop from WA to OR
> Wish we would have kept a few now...:banghead:


:what:

:facepalm:


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

I have a hard time believing that a good turbo build couldn't out quarter mile a G60 equipped 8v. But the problem is most turbo PG's I can find use at least ABA heads. (for obvious reasons, but this shouldn't really equal any more power, just easier turbo and intake placement. Valves and ports are the same size. But lots of these ABA/PG 1.80 turbo's put down around 190-210whp.

I've seen dyno charts for ABA turbos putting down 240+ hp. With a head spacer and under 15psi boost. Also seen ABA turbos with forged pistons putting down closer to 275-300hp on high boost and standalone. How can these cars not be faster? 

But then again I have my doubts too many people have done too serious a Turbo counterflow, where would you put the turbo? Tiny little ones fit, but one that could support 20+psi likely wouldn't fit under the intake.


I do know that when my G60 finally goes boom (the charger not the tall block) I will likely be doing something turbo. Either ABA, or 16v/ABA hybrid, or just 16v, hell maybe even VRT. Although a billet displacer could be awfully cool, and maybe would allow for a smaller pulley? The problem I have is almost all my friends have moved onto faster, newer cars. 10 years ago my G60 MKII was competitive or faster then their cars (all running somewhere in the 14's to low 15's, stuff like an H22 and B16 powered EG civic's ) Now they all have cars like MazdaSpeed3, Cobalt SS Turbo, MKV GTi w/APR + bolt ons.

I've been using nitrous for the last 3 years just too keep pace. And let me tell you the G60 with a 55hp shot is basically the same (very slightly quicker) as the APR GTI in a roll on, and still slower then the Cobalt Turbo (beast of engine in those things). So it's become clear I'm going to need somewhere like +75-100hp what my car makes now. (guessing a 68mm an ported charger, it's like 165whp ish) 


If I go 16vT, I'd like to keep running Digi 1 since I'm familiar with it. New injectors, and a 16v turbo chip and it should be possible right? Maybe I need to talk to BBM about a 16v/ABA G60...now that's cool :thumbup: 

It's come down to put together a more powerful engine, or sell the VW and move on to something else. :banghead: (But after over a decade with this car, I'm attached to it like a marriage)


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

Yes, more hp does not make for a quicker car... When we were running our drag Scirocco it would beat turbo cars that had much more hp, even cars that had an additional 100 hp. This red Honda was claiming to make over 350hp. We were making about 240 wheel hp. This chart shows the torque difference and the turbo still has more wheel hp. Also you have to account for turbo lag and believe me turbo lag is always a big deal when going up against a supercharged car.


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## efritsch (Aug 21, 2002)

Wow. I wish I could afford a twin screw.


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

prof315 brought up diesel's.

Imagine a big diesel truck running a 300 hp 280 torque gasoline small block Chevy engine.
The truck would be soooo slow...it might barely even move.

The diesel engine lets say also makes 300 hp...but it also makes 600 ft. lbs of torque. Point being torque is really what moves a vehicle. Hp is a measurement of work performed over a time period. Torque is the ability to turn and move. Torque is key to a quick car....and superchargers rule in the torque dept. The PG G60 engine was engineered for torque, so matches the supercharger perfectly.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

I'm still not convinced that a PG turbo *with a modern ball bearing turbo matched to the powerband and a good exhaust manifold* won't at least equal the performance/ 1/4 mile times of a supercharged car. Sooner or later I'm sure to wind up with another PG and I'll have to try.... 

As far as efficiency goes though, sorry turbos have superchargers beat hands down. Fact: a typical supercharger eats between 15%-50% of the crankshaft horsepower while a turbo only takes 3% to 10%. Example: The MASSIVE roots blower on a 7000hp top fuel dragster requires between 750hp and 1000hp to spin up to 50psi!


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## petethepug (May 25, 2001)

Proofs in the pudding. Pudding eating contest below :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
Lysholm is the apidamy of efficiency. For its time the G-Ladder was impressive. Modifications to increase boost was the writing on the wall for its demise. 









Lysholm 1200A Supercharger

Garrett GT32

Garrett GT32 Press vs Flow

I used the Garrett GT32 as comparison since it's the hot ticket in turbine technology. The charts are the best way to compare apples to apples. For obtaining _immediate, cost effective boost at low rpm_ on a PG (G60) motor, a supercharger is the way to go. A turbo will get you there and more but, the PG was not designed for the characteristics of a turbine from the factory.

Adiabatic Efficiency:
Screw Compressor Approx. 80% 
G-Ladder Approx. 60% 
GT32 Approx 68% - Heat soak will decrease this rating proportionally


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Actually Borg Warner EFR turbos are the current cutting edge in the turbo industry. (We won't talk about their supply problems though ) I'm pretty sure that a 6258 on a good manifold would hold it's own vs a twinscrew on a PG.


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## petethepug (May 25, 2001)

I hear what your saying. The B/W 6258 will run you about $1.5K on the low end _if_ you can find one new. It's easy to spend another $1-1.5K on the essentials for installation. If you opt for a stand alone management system throw down $500 to $1K. After all that you've got a PG head that's limited by flow characteristic once your boost goes up. The PG block is a lump compared to internals of a motor specifically built for a turbo.

A turbo _can_ smoke a built Corrado G60 or Lysholm. The point Johnny's making is that it just costs _a lot more_ to change a G60 to a turbo motor with the _identical or greater performance characteristics_. There's no magic combo to chip and bolt on to a G60 that will make it scream like it does with a STG III kit (cost wise).



A2VW4life said:


> Don't buy a kit, none of them out there are worth what they want for them, put one together yourself its easy, here is a quick list for ya:
> 
> turbo exhaust mani (with or without external waistegate flange thats up to you)
> turbo of your choice
> ...


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## nu2dubbing (May 6, 2006)

For me it was easy......both can and will grenade given enough time and abuse or digi fail. I rather replace a $300 turbo than a $1200 g60. I have never had the pleasure of owning a lysholm but the ability to turn into a paper weight instantly scares the sh!t out of me


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

petethepug said:


> I hear what your saying. The B/W 6258 will run you about $1.5K on the low end _if_ you can find one new. It's easy to spend another $1-1.5K on the essentials for installation. If you opt for a stand alone management system throw down $500 to $1K. After all that you've got a PG head that's limited by flow characteristic once your boost goes up. The PG block is a lump compared to internals of a motor specifically built for a turbo.
> 
> A turbo _can_ smoke a built Corrado G60 or Lysholm. The point Johnny's making is that it just costs _a lot more_ to change a G60 to a turbo motor with the _identical or greater performance characteristics_. There's no magic combo to chip and bolt on to a G60 that will make it scream like it does with a STG III kit (cost wise).


What essentials???? That's one of the many reasons I like the EFR so much..... big internal wastegate (3 different actuators available), built in DV, and a boost control solenoid already mounted and plumbed in. Hang it on the car, plumb it, run 1 vacuum line from the DV to the intake and wire up the boost solenoid DONE!


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## petethepug (May 25, 2001)

Love me the turbo(s), just not for the G60 unless I swap to a 20V. I just rolled 100,000 clicks on the 2.7t and can't wait to Stg II or III it as part of the maintenance. If there was some way to hang a


turbo
intake
and then chip
the stock PG motor and get the linear torque curve of the Allroad or s/c'd G60, I'd build it next. Show me some dyno runs sheets for _just hanging_ a Borg Warner EFR or 6258 on a G60 and I'm a believer.


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## fox-16v (Jun 30, 2009)

I understand the pg wasn't built for a turbo. But why can a lightened crank and lightened flywheel help the motor adapt to the different boost curve. Yes the cylinder head has poor flow, but I've seen some counter flow heads ported with bigger valves make good power.


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

Allroad 2.7T...what turbo lag? :thumbup:

Hell I don't know how people say the 1.8T is laggy, but the one in my old Beetle 1.8T was pretty decent, you could feel it spool up but it was a very fast spool, by the time you did a quick clutch slip launch, it was at full chat. Unlike other turbo cars I have driven extensively. Like a XR4Ti, Mitsu Eclipse, WRX, hell even that Cobalt 2.0T, is like zzzzzzz snore...pfffftthsh...holy F*ckin sh1T. But with no lift shift, that car never drops out of boost once spooled, it's stupid fast for what it is. Faster then a modded GTI and Mazdaspeed, WRX, etc.

Then again with a S/C I don't need no lift shift, full boost as fast as you can get your foot to the floor. Maybe Jbetz is right on this supercharger thing after all.


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

Prof315 said:


> What essentials???? That's one of the many reasons I like the EFR so much..... big internal wastegate (3 different actuators available), built in DV, and a boost control solenoid already mounted and plumbed in. Hang it on the car, plumb it, run 1 vacuum line from the DV to the intake and wire up the boost solenoid DONE!


turbo manifold, down pipe, ic tubing, hoses clamps, air intake with tube, hose clamp filter, oil feed and drain....ect.
those essentials.


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

fox-16v said:


> I understand the pg wasn't built for a turbo. But why can a lightened crank and lightened flywheel help the motor adapt to the different boost curve. Yes the cylinder head has poor flow, but I've seen some counter flow heads ported with bigger valves make good power.


sure if you wanted to try to prove some point and spend thousands of extra dollars just to do it...
at this point you might as well install a 16v, 20v or vr6.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

JBETZ said:


> turbo manifold, down pipe, ic tubing, hoses clamps, air intake with tube, hose clamp filter, oil feed and drain....ect.
> those essentials.


Ok, but not another $1000-$1500 that's for sure.


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

Prof315 said:


> Ok, but not another $1000-$1500 that's for sure.


And still a slug on the G60 

I'm sure it just a fluke that we won the 2004 European car 1.8T time attach against oh....a dozen turbo cars when we ran a Supercharger. Same engine size 1.8T, or should I say 1.8SC for us.
And that's a 20v


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

JBETZ said:


> And still a slug on the G60
> 
> I'm sure it just a fluke that we won the 2004 European car 1.8T time attach against oh....a dozen turbo cars when we ran a Supercharger. Same engine size 1.8T, or should I say 1.8SC for us.
> And that's a 20v


Ahaha the proof is in the pudding.

/thread :laugh:


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## Hedo (Feb 25, 2012)

I loved reading all this. I just got involved in the VW thing and bought '91 corrado with some BBM stuff in the engine bay. Having had a stage 3 SRT-4 ACR edition i can say i like the daily driving torque of the gLadder over the turbo i previously had.

I have been doing research on going turbo, 16vt conversions, 20vt conversions, ect,ect but they all seem expensive and overly complicated to install compared to upgrading to a BBM Lysholm for my Corrado. I feel i am more in favor of going with a Lysholm SC after reading this thread.

Now if someone could just quiet it down and make it stealthy


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## wed3k (Feb 22, 2010)

but the real question is: would it be worth cutting everything out of the car to win 1000 dollars?

ill tube frame the car!


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## scrapper (Feb 17, 2007)

JBETZ said:


> And still a slug on the G60
> 
> I'm sure it just a fluke that we won the 2004 European car 1.8T time attach against oh....a dozen turbo cars when we ran a Supercharger. Same engine size 1.8T, or should I say 1.8SC for us.
> And that's a 20v


Thats Awesome and I remember the write up on it in the mag. I might still have it I'll have to look. I remember feeling that all the cars were sorta slow in the magazine and wished Bill Schimmel had built a car for that mix. In 1998 Bill had his car in the 11's and built others in the 9's and here's a bunch of cars in the 13's and 14's qtr mile in 2004. 

Not mocking yaa because I like and appreciate all that BBM has done to the VW scene for yrs and current.:thumbup: 
I just remember thinking there's faster cars at the time that would be a better example for the turbos. I also remember that BBM having the best sounding of the bunch. I also thought BBM had the most hp in the mix. I wanted BBM to win out of that line up or the other Corrado.


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

wed3k said:


> but the real question is: would it be worth cutting everything out of the car to win 1000 dollars?
> 
> ill tube frame the car!


cars have to be equal weight and the same tires....


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

You are correct....all of the cars were running slower than normal. The tarmac temp was over 140 degrees. The heat took out a couple of cars, our car was overheated from the road course by the time we hit the 1/4 mile. All of the quarter mile times were slow from the cars getting the crap beat out of them and the heat from the road course. We went straight to the 1/4 mile and believe me it was a tough day in the sun... Our 1/4 mile time was mis-printed in the magazine. They flip flopped our time with another tuner. The DOT tires they made us run were also pretty bad for traction....and they were wasted by the time we hit the 1/4 mile


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## wed3k (Feb 22, 2010)

when i took the original charger out at 185k, it still put out 4 psi but the innard were destroyed and ready to come apart. i could see the apex seals hanging out on the inlet. 

put a stock rebuild with a 68mm and it can almost fry the tires in 2nd gear. 

id like to go with something aftermarket but the g60 fits from the factory and can still be upgraded if i wanted to.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

One final comment and then I'll shut up . It may well be that a supercharged PG will be the faster car in the 1/4 mile vs a turboed PG, but some people (me included) don't give a hoot about 1/4 mile times. 
Don't get me wrong, I have a good deal of respect for those folks who can run a fast 1/4 but it's not me. I prefer road racing. And in a street car (especially a rado) I'd rather have top speed and good part throttle fuel economy. It's fun to outrun a new Porsche on the interstate and then make the owner sick to his stomach when you tell him that it's a 4 banger that gets 35+mpg at 85 mph . And for those goals a turbo will always win especially combined with a decent standalone.


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## petethepug (May 25, 2001)

No worry Mate! That's the thing about the Corrado. There's a cult following. There's still enough of em to Frankenstein 8V, 16V, 20V, 24V and even one 30V (2.7T). A turbo is just the tip of the TDI, Syncro, Haldex Corrado iceberg. I'd love to see someone stuff a W8 in one of these.


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## DubCorrado (Aug 7, 2009)

Man Im glad that this post was started. I was actually thinking about turbocharging my PG and ditching the Lysholm. But reading this just made me that much more in love with the Lysholm. 

:beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:


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## petethepug (May 25, 2001)

I've got a BBM lysholm silencer kit waiting to go on after my next G Ladder rebuild is out. Between now and then I'll find a lysholm off the classifieds to prep. Repoman's life size Hot Wheels has me motivated to dial up the boost now that I've got the platform to support it.


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## fox-16v (Jun 30, 2009)

If bbm reintroduced their silencer kit, I would go that route instead of turbo. Ill just save my penny's and throw a rotrex setup on a 20v one of these days.


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## petethepug (May 25, 2001)

TEC used one on their Corrado but it was vague on it's performance. I was looking at Rotrex for a while. There were never any dyno sheets available from a Corrado G60 install so I knew not to get in on it. The last article I saw on the inet showed the size that goes in a G60 could only get about 7-8lb boost. 

Edit .. Just got off the phone w/ Jackson Racing who is the Dist in my area. Here's the bottom line with Rotrex on the G60: 

Cost factor w/ exchange rate of the 1 US Dollar = 5.62867 Danish Krone 
Dedicated support solely for the Corrado G60. Per the folks at Rotrex: 

_If you have a problem with your Rotrex supercharger then contact the dealer for advice. Always contact the dealer where you bought the supercharger. Do not contact Rotrex directly as only the dealer will be able to help. 
We do not recommend attempting to repair the Rotrex supercharger. We are aware of some companies offering repairs, however none of these are Rotrex approved. At Rotrex we never repair superchargers or reuse components. 
Please also note that Rotrex does not offer any warranty on superchargers that have been repaired or disassembled_ 

In spite of them being around for a while they're still a small Danish Co and have yet to make it into a production vehicle. Real world road time and the R&D that would come from running a Rotrex in a daily driver would get them to the next level.


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## scrapper (Feb 17, 2007)

Some people who go turbo most likely are not just going to be satisfied with a 14 sec qtr mile pass at full weight. Thats just teasing them to build a turbo engine correctly. Not just throwing on a kit and calling it a day. They are getting a turbo cuz they can surpass a super charger performance with a further upgrades and or possible future build. You hear it all the time. 

If you want a fast street car that only does about High 14. sec qtr mile pass at full weight BBM might be for you. If you gut yr Corrado with further upgrades you might be in the 12's . Also consider you will be stuck in that range or BBM would of built a faster car is my guess. 

If you want something that will keep up with performance of today's standards for an average stock VW's R models BBM can get you there. 

When it comes to drag racing your better off with a turbo in the long run just in case you want to compete with a bit faster cars at the track. You just gotta build the motor. 

I think that's why so many just ditch the motor as a whole and put in a 16 valve or VR6 and start there. 

*Anyone know what the fastest g60 qtr mile time with a BBM super charger is? Full weight or gutted?*


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

fox-16v said:


> If bbm reintroduced their silencer kit, I would go that route instead of turbo. Ill just save my penny's and throw a rotrex setup on a 20v one of these days.


 We can set you up with a BBM twin screw and silencer option  
Rotrex no so great on the G60 8v, had a few in my shop.


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

Prof315 said:


> One final comment and then I'll shut up . It may well be that a supercharged PG will be the faster car in the 1/4 mile vs a turboed PG, but some people (me included) don't give a hoot about 1/4 mile times.
> Don't get me wrong, I have a good deal of respect for those folks who can run a fast 1/4 but it's not me. I prefer road racing. And in a street car (especially a rado) I'd rather have top speed and good part throttle fuel economy. It's fun to outrun a new Porsche on the interstate and then make the owner sick to his stomach when you tell him that it's a 4 banger that gets 35+mpg at 85 mph . And for those goals a turbo will always win especially combined with a decent standalone.


 Also quicker times on the road course...even more of an A$$ kicking than on the 1/4 mile track :laugh:


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## clove911 (Jun 23, 2004)

My only arguement, and why I didn't go with the charger, is for the cost(over$3000) for the charger and then money to install, chip, whatever, depends on what you can do yourself. I am putting in a fully built 16Vt motor in for the same in parts costs comparibly. I understand that I am putting in custom piping which if you can't do yourself can be expensive, but still the over all end result will be much more fun to drive. Alos, with standalone, only thing I need to do down the road is add more fuel and bigger turbo and faster car. 

In relationship to lag, a good hybrid turbo will cost far less than the charger as well. 

Like the one guy said earlier in the thread, its a lot to say "how much power for how much money" 

I'm not a rocket scientist so take my opinion with a grain of salt. 

Also not bashing BBM or their charger/products, as I bought their fuel rail to use with my setup :thumbup:


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

Good points....really also pending on your mechanical skill level and how much you value your time. 
That is even if you have extra time, majority of our customers like to bolt on and go. 
I have a 500hp turbo 16v... GT30R, fun car still lags, so did my 16v GT28R. 
Now I am switching two of my cars back to Supercharger! 
Thanks for all the feed back and input, thought this might be a fun thread


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

Since we are now comparing turbo charged 16v's and 20v's, to the G60 SC 8v, thought I'd add this. 
When we did the very first Mk3 2.0L BBM Supercharger kit. My customer went right to the Stage IV power package. At that time I had a tricked out Mk4 GTI 1.8T. It made about 250+ whp and nearly 300 wheel torque. We did countless side by side drag races. Every time the cars were exactly neck and neck. My 1.8T GTI even had a close ratio six spd. box in it. Once again it didn't matter, the broad torque band made it just as quick. Both cars in full street trim and woofers in the trunk. 
Bottom line is that a properly supercharged 8v can be just as quick as a tricked out 16v or 20v turbo car. Now lets not start comparing water melons too apples here. Of course you have world record high hp, high $$$$$$ custom built turbo and supercharged cars out there. That's not what we are talking about here.


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

clove911 said:


> In relationship to lag, a good hybrid turbo will cost far less than the charger as well.


 I keep seeing this cost comparison.... It's absolutely ridiculous my friend. *I sell turbo gear to 16v guys every single day. *I sell complete packages, just parts, complete engines ect. ect. ect.... they are NOT less money than our $3k charger kit. 
By the time you add it all up they almost always go near the $4-5k mark and you would need to spend this much to even compete against a twin screw kit 8v on the good old G60. 
So back to dollars and cents, time and skill level of the customer....it is beat hands down!


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

scrapper said:


> *Anyone know what the fastest g60 qtr mile time with a BBM super charger is? Full weight or gutted?*


 Yes, pretty sure we have it....the video is in this thread. 
The fastest time I have ever seen on a stock PG 8v G60 engine with stock management is our fastest time of 11.7 sec 1/4 mile. 

I've never seen a quicker time on this engine set up. If someone can show me other wise....my eyes are wide open  

I also know of Double J Motorwerks, he runs low 12's all day long in a drag prepped BBM SC 8v bunny. 
Not sure if he has gone quicker since I last spoke with him 

And we have ran high 12's with full street trim cars running slicks. 
Repoman, I think used to come close to 11's with our 16v SC Ltd. conversion... in full street trim.


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## rodperformance (Oct 9, 2010)

*Tvs charger*

Hi again mr betz!could you give some thoughts about the tvs charger? Seems like a good compromise (cost perspective) to the buyer,it looks like it could do good and if the price is right there should be some customers,at least i would be!!may be is not as efficient as a lysholm but a lower pricing on a kit like that and missing a few ponies i would go for it.Actually i might do like carat g60 and stuff a 50shot for those times when i feel lucky(punk),hope you and your staff the best and keep bringing good stuff the market later guys! Roderick


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

rodperformance said:


> Hi again mr betz!could you give some thoughts about the tvs charger? Seems like a good compromise (cost perspective) to the buyer,it looks like it could do good and if the price is right there should be some customers,at least i would be!!may be is not as efficient as a lysholm but a lower pricing on a kit like that and missing a few ponies i would go for it.Actually i might do like carat g60 and stuff a 50shot for those times when i feel lucky(punk),hope you and your staff the best and keep bringing good stuff the market later guys! Roderick


 Hi rodperformance...we have some really great customers in Puerto Rico. So shout out to PR  
The TVS is a great charger design.... the smallest unit is the 1320 and it would be a tight shoe horn of a challenge to fit it in the G60. Feel free to email me at [email protected] and we can discuss options


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

JBETZ said:


> Also quicker times on the road course...even more of an A$$ kicking than on the 1/4 mile track :laugh:


 And not legal on a VW in SCCA club racing


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## fox-16v (Jun 30, 2009)

JBETZ said:


> We can set you up with a BBM twin screw and silencer option
> Rotrex no so great on the G60 8v, had a few in my shop.


 Have you dabbled in silenced 20v lysholms?


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## kainoasun (Jan 27, 2005)

*Super charger...*

If we're still talking 1.8 G60's on digi,... I had so many headaches maintaining G60 turbo conversions. But i did not have as many issues maintaining highly boosted supercharged systems running digi. The turbo conversions just had so many more parts, not to mention the extra labor and tuning issues for the turbo conversion. " 

From my experience there was not that much difference in performance when using the 1.8 8v head in turbo or supercharged form. 

It seems the flow of the 8v counter flow head, even when P and P'd with bigger valves has a bottleneck that can only move so much air regardless of how much is boost shoved down its throat. 

If I was to go turbo 1.8, I'd bite the bullet and go factory 1.8T 20 valve with factory or aftermarket management... No question. 

Then again A lysholm 1.8 20 valve is pretty dam awesome making some ridiculous power compared to 1.8T engine..... 

Anyone know which setup dominates??? 






P"


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

fox-16v said:


> Have you dabbled in silenced 20v lysholms?


 the red devil race car video above is a BBM twin screw 20v silenced set up, large custom head unit. 
i think silenced is not exactly the correct word for this. 
putting the t-body in front of the compressor makes it about 50+% quieter. 
you can still hear the blower, but it sounds like music to me


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## scrapper (Feb 17, 2007)

JBETZ said:


> you can still hear the blower, but it sounds like music to me


 Nice :thumbup: I'm the same way  My Corrado has a 4"down pipe wide open and never had the radio on in like 7yrs Hmm Love it! My 928 that I had for many more has never had the radio on I just roll down the windows n the V8 was all music. 

The BBM car must of been a blast to hear, feel and pedal thru going into the turns and coming out.


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## DubCorrado (Aug 7, 2009)

I guess this is the best place to ask this but, how many liters of air does a BBM lysholm push out per revolution? 

Thanks, 
Mark


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

DubCorrado said:


> I guess this is the best place to ask this but, how many liters of air does a BBM lysholm push out per revolution?
> 
> Thanks,
> Mark


 .87lpr


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## vdubCorrado (Nov 8, 2001)

Prof315 said:


> . Scroll compressors are quite efficient, just ask the A/C industry, but definately not so good for a supercharger.


 going to have to disagree... 



as well the fastest 1/4 mile cars in the world are scroll supercharged... 

i'm sure i am just biased but there's nothing like a scroll charger, centrifugal chargers are just outright not fun. i sold my G60 Lysholm back when i was 20 :facepalm: biggest regret of my life thus far.


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

I think we are just mixing up the types of compressors here. 
The video above is the Kenne Bell twin screw lysholm. 

Pretty sure the above is referring to the scroll AC compressor being similar to the g-lader. 

Then you have centrifugal...or basically turbo type blower ran by a belt. 

And then of course you have the Eaton egg beater roots design.... 
Then the newer TVS roots type. 

The twin screw lysholm types are the best positive displacement compressors... 
TVS is next 

Centrifugal such as Vortech, Rotrex....Pro Charger not so great for smaller engines in my opinion. I also wouldn't choose one for larger engines. 

Roots Heaton egg beater.... nick name tells the story


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## vdubCorrado (Nov 8, 2001)

as above i guess i was mistaken, i'm not a heating and air conditioning person haha just in context it seemed as if they were discussing the screw type chargers but after reading he referred to as scroll... my bad... though i would rather a G60 over a centrifugal haha 

though makes me wonder how did the G60 "lysholm" get that nickname? being the charger is clearly an Opcon by the case as opposed to Lysholm chargers having heat sink fins like Eaton has used for years. oh and if we're speaking affiliation Opcon is actually the parent company to Lysholm. Also you, BBM, publicly offer up the info that the charger is an Opcon Autorotor 2087. i have always been baffled by that... really miss mine though :banghead:


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

Lysholm is more fun to say


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## DubCorrado (Aug 7, 2009)

*Billet Pulleys*

For awhile now I been contemplating on purchasing Gruvenparts billet lightweight pulleys. As this was to help put less strain on the Lysholm as well as decreasing the parasitic drain it takes on the engine power to spin it and increasing overall engine efficiency. I been reading this forum and havent seen much praising on this subject, so is it just a complete waste of money to do so? Will it even help enough for me to tell a difference in rev climbs or any other factor? 

I really need to slam a 16v on her :banghead: 

-Mark


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## MKVmyfast (Sep 16, 2008)

DubCorrado said:


> For awhile now I been contemplating on purchasing Gruvenparts billet lightweight pulleys. As this was to help put less strain on the Lysholm as well as decreasing the parasitic drain it takes on the engine power to spin it and increasing overall engine efficiency. I been reading this forum and havent seen much praising on this subject, so is it just a complete waste of money to do so? Will it even help enough for me to tell a difference in rev climbs or any other factor?
> 
> I really need to slam a 16v on her :banghead:
> 
> -Mark


 I have a 16v turbo head for sale if your interested  :wave:

Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk 2


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## vdubCorrado (Nov 8, 2001)

ooh i have a preety nice 16v head setup with cams and i'll even throw in a head gasket  

but from what i have always been reading, only had one VR6 with billet pullies, but people are complaining that they may not be balanced. which as we all know an unbalanced crank is bad mmmkay. so i traded in my MK4 GTI VR6 cause it was smoking. underdrive billet pullies, billet flywheel and 6 puck clutch. later found out every VR i've had smoked :laugh: i actually ran into the MK4's new owner and the car was still running 2 years later with no problems... 

...bottom line is if you have done it already i would not worry about going back to stock


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## MKVmyfast (Sep 16, 2008)

vdubCorrado said:


> ooh i have a preety nice 16v head setup with cams and i'll even throw in a head gasket
> 
> but from what i have always been reading, only had one VR6 with billet pullies, but people are complaining that they may not be balanced. which as we all know an unbalanced crank is bad mmmkay. so i traded in my MK4 GTI VR6 cause it was smoking. underdrive billet pullies, billet flywheel and 6 puck clutch. later found out every VR i've had smoked :laugh: i actually ran into the MK4's new owner and the car was still running 2 years later with no problems...
> 
> ...bottom line is if you have done it already i would not worry about going back to stock


 I had the ECS tuning light weight underdrive crank and power steering pillows on my car for over two years with no issues so today I replaced those along with the stock belt tensioner, alternator and water pump pillows with the complete 5 light weight pulley set from Gruven parts  and I'm very happy with it so far

Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk 2


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## abacorrado (Apr 5, 2005)

What about the reliability issues with the BBM lysholm. By the way i am currently putting a TVS 1900 in a corrado. it fits with A/C just have to cut the radiator shroud.


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## DubCorrado (Aug 7, 2009)

MKVmyfast said:


> I had the ECS tuning light weight underdrive crank and power steering pillows on my car for over two years with no issues so today I replaced those along with the stock belt tensioner, alternator and water pump pillows with the complete 5 light weight pulley set from Gruven parts  and I'm very happy with it so far
> 
> Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk 2


 How is the performance on the car since the lightweight pulleys installed? Im just really looking for increased rev climbs in the low to mid rpms. Do those pulleys work well enough to make my smile larger? :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: 
Or is it a small increase and a buzzkill? :banghead::banghead::banghead: 

Mark


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## MKVmyfast (Sep 16, 2008)

I really like it. I live in downtown and was just at a club close bye and hit it all the way home and I still have a smile on my face but its just the first day to quick to judge ill keep in touch and let you know a little later on what I still think about them. The price for them is steep I will admit that but ill let you know if it was even worth spending all that money for this modification

Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk 2


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## vdubCorrado (Nov 8, 2001)

the lysholm charger is very reliable. don't over rev it and you wont have any problems. by over revv i mean peak and continuous revs. the lysholm is so loud because it is gear timed. same reason a straight cut gear transmission is loud. well the lysholm is excessively loud because it's designed to have the throttle body before the intake of the charger, basically this is what the BBM silencer kit does. it puts the TB before the charger's intake.


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

abacorrado said:


> What about the reliability issues with the BBM lysholm. By the way i am currently putting a TVS 1900 in a corrado. it fits with A/C just have to cut the radiator shroud.


 Every new Lysholm we have sold has come with a full one year warranty. We started this kit back in 1998 so many are getting very old with high mileage. Since 1998 we have replaced or repaired very few 1 in about 100 or only about 1% 

If you have a BBM supercharger that is 4+ years old with high miles or over driven and raced. It is a really good idea to have it rebuilt by us and start a new fresh life with all new bearings and seals. 

If you have a turbo or a supercharger...if you take good care with proper installation / maintenance they take good care of you. Many have gone over 100,000 miles and 100's are still out there boosting cars all around the world. 

It is crazy hard for me to believe that we have had this kit out now for nearly *14 years*


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## DubCorrado (Aug 7, 2009)

MKVmyfast said:


> I really like it. I live in downtown and was just at a club close bye and hit it all the way home and I still have a smile on my face but its just the first day to quick to judge ill keep in touch and let you know a little later on what I still think about them. The price for them is steep I will admit that but ill let you know if it was even worth spending all that money for this modification
> 
> Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk 2


 Sounds good so far man, let me know how things turn out. Very anxious to buy some but scared the performance wont be an even trade off.


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## DubCorrado (Aug 7, 2009)

vdubCorrado said:


> the lysholm charger is very reliable. don't over rev it and you wont have any problems. by over revv i mean peak and continuous revs. the lysholm is so loud because it is gear timed. same reason a straight cut gear transmission is loud. well the lysholm is excessively loud because it's designed to have the throttle body before the intake of the charger, basically this is what the BBM silencer kit does. it puts the TB before the charger's intake.


 Yeah I dont plan on over revving her. I never hit bottom of red line nor do I rev at 7k. I normally shift at about 6200 or sooner, no point revving further. I just need that low to mid rev climb speed. I may purchase a silencer kit one day, for now Im still in love with that whine. :thumbup:


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## vdubCorrado (Nov 8, 2001)

DubCorrado said:


> Yeah I dont plan on over revving her. I never hit bottom of red line nor do I rev at 7k. I normally shift at about 6200 or sooner, no point revving further. I just need that low to mid rev climb speed. I may purchase a silencer kit one day, for now Im still in love with that whine. :thumbup:


 Screw the silencer, that whine is the best part! If I thought I could trade my VR for a lysholm Corrado it would be gone in a heartbeat haha


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## DubCorrado (Aug 7, 2009)

vdubCorrado said:


> Screw the silencer, that whine is the best part! If I thought I could trade my VR for a lysholm Corrado it would be gone in a heartbeat haha


 Hahaha yeah thats true, thats the unique beauty of that lysholm. Why muzzle the beast? 

:thumbup:


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

vdubCorrado said:


> Screw the silencer, that whine is the best part! If I thought I could trade my VR for a lysholm Corrado it would be gone in a heartbeat haha


 You either absolutely love it, hate it....or love it sometimes and hate it other times :laugh: 

I actually like them silenced...not really the correct wording for this. Putting the t-body in front of the inlet of the charger cuts the blower wine down by about 50+%. I personally think they sound just right this way. The one thing that I always love is the massive torque curve and performance


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## eddy.h (Apr 25, 2009)

i am so tempted to get this supercharger kit


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## vdubCorrado (Nov 8, 2001)

eddy.h said:


> i am so tempted to get this supercharger kit


the only regret you will ever have with this kit is selling the car once it's been installed ...or am i the only one who made that mistake?


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## eddy.h (Apr 25, 2009)

not looking to sell my corrado hope to have the money in 4 / 6 weeks


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

I want to know more about the twin screw 1.8t earlier in this thread. is it the same charger as fitted to the g60's? or is it a bigger charger?


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

G60 Carat said:


> I want to know more about the twin screw 1.8t earlier in this thread. is it the same charger as fitted to the g60's? or is it a bigger charger?


That was a much larger and very custom set up....made over 400hp to the wheels.


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## fox-16v (Jun 30, 2009)

I'm now convinced to get a lysholm for my rado. Time to count my pennies...


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## eddy.h (Apr 25, 2009)

fox-16v said:


> I'm now convinced to get a lysholm for my rado. Time to count my pennies...


x2


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

Now I want a lysholm 1.8t , Ohhh baby thats tasty!


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## Hurt (May 3, 2011)

They named it the "G60" for a reason!


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

Hurt said:


> They named it the "G60" for a reason!


There is nothing wrong with running the good ol' trusty g-lader.
You can safely run 18 psi...even peak at 20 psi reliably with a good g-lader, no problem.
A much better choice than a turbo on this engine....my opinion. 
But if you really want to rip....nothing will beat a twin screw on this engine.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

reliability with a G lader  now there's an oxymoron if I ever heard one.


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

Wait that much boost with what cam/head work. I've lost a good 2 maybe 3 psi going from a Stock cam to a 272/272. (although the car feels faster, and likes to be reved more)

Lets talk pulley size, what's about the smallest you can safely run up to 6000rpm?


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## mk2stutter (Sep 30, 2003)

my lysholm is over 10 years old. I am honestly not sure of the mileage I am sure its up there. I run a 55mm pulley on it and daily drive it everyday. Its stage 4 I peak at 18lbs of boost but I am losing 2 - 3lbs through the stupid amounts of intercooler piping I have. 

I just wish BBM supplied a sticker along the lines of "Yeah..you're right its my power steering pump"


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

Prof315 said:


> reliability with a G lader  now there's an oxymoron if I ever heard one.


Reliability, absolutely....we get good g-laders in the shop every single week. Unfortunately we also get some bad ones. These are now over 20 yrs old! I'd call that pretty darn reliable for any forced induction unit to run that long, pretty amazing.
Just like any form of forced induction, the condition and reliability is greatly affected by the user and maintenance.
If you run a good air filter that is not rubbing and damaged, the charger will not suck up dirt and wear out prematurely. If you change the oil and keep your boost return misting back into the charger as intended....it will lubricate the apex strips and run strong for a very very long time. The ones the we see broken, worn excessively or damaged are from poor maintenance. Start with a good one, take care of it and get another 20+yrs of reliable run time.


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

G60 Carat said:


> Wait that much boost with what cam/head work. I've lost a good 2 maybe 3 psi going from a Stock cam to a 272/272. (although the car feels faster, and likes to be reved more)
> 
> Lets talk pulley size, what's about the smallest you can safely run up to 6000rpm?


Safely run, has many variables... What is the condition of the unit? How hard is it boosted and the car driven? How much time does it stay in boost? What is the maintenance like....another question mark?
I personally have owned more than a few G60's and have never broken or blown a G60 g-lader. I've ran around with a 58mm. 65mm can be very safe on a good unit....even smaller. Depends on how you treat it. Some people treat G60 PG engines like they are Honda street bike motors and think they should rev the $h1t out of them to the moon. This is not a happy place for the g-lader...bouncing off rev limit a no / no. I shift at 6k and avoid the rev limit. More rpm on this engine is not where the performance is at, grab a gear and use the torque.


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## RedYellowWhite (Apr 21, 2008)

JBETZ said:


> Reliability, absolutely....we get good g-laders in the shop every single week. Unfortunately we also get some bad ones. These are now over 20 yrs old! I'd call that pretty darn reliable for any forced induction unit to run that long, pretty amazing.
> Just like any form of forced induction, the condition and reliability is greatly affected by the user and maintenance.
> If you run a good air filter that is not rubbing and damaged, the charger will not suck up dirt and wear out prematurely. If you change the oil and keep your boost return misting back into the charger as intended....it will lubricate the apex strips and run strong for a very very long time. The ones the we see broken, worn excessively or damaged are from poor maintenance. Start with a good one, take care of it and get another 20+yrs of reliable run time.





JBETZ said:


> Safely run, has many variables... What is the condition of the unit? How hard is it boosted and the car driven? How much time does it stay in boost? What is the maintenance like....another question mark?
> I personally have owned more than a few G60's and have never broken or blown a G60 g-lader. I've ran around with a 58mm. 65mm can be very safe on a good unit....even smaller. Depends on how you treat it. Some people treat G60 PG engines like they are Honda street bike motors and think they should rev the $h1t out of them to the moon. This is not a happy place for the g-lader...bouncing off rev limit a no / no. I shift at 6k and avoid the rev limit. More rpm on this engine is not where the performance is at, grab a gear and use the torque.


^^Absolutely agree :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

JBETZ said:


> Safely run, has many variables... What is the condition of the unit? How hard is it boosted and the car driven? How much time does it stay in boost? What is the maintenance like....another question mark?
> I personally have owned more than a few G60's and have never broken or blown a G60 g-lader. I've ran around with a 58mm. 65mm can be very safe on a good unit....even smaller. Depends on how you treat it. Some people treat G60 PG engines like they are Honda street bike motors and think they should rev the $h1t out of them to the moon. This is not a happy place for the g-lader...bouncing off rev limit a no / no. I shift at 6k and avoid the rev limit. More rpm on this engine is not where the performance is at, grab a gear and use the torque.


Yeah I find it to useless to rev past 6000rpm, I usually grab the next gear just before 6000, so like 5800rpm-ish. Mine seems to be pulling the best in the 4000-5200rpm range anyways. I assume peak torque in that area somewhere.
*
So since I never rev past 6000, I run a 68mm now, and I'm thinking about a change to a 63mm.

Is that a noticeable change?*


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## petethepug (May 25, 2001)

Prof315 said:


> reliability with a G lader  now there's an oxymoron if I ever heard one.


 
The G-Ladders have service interval requirements based upon what they're asked to do. When they don't get rebuilt on that one simple requirement and get run into that G-Ladder Twilight Zone ... THAT's the Oxymoron you hear justifying and blaming the G-Ladder for not rebuilding itself


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## wed3k (Feb 22, 2010)

ive heard running more boost can also be a bad thing if you can't support the airflow and if the intercooler can't handle the additional airflow.

right now im on a fully built motor, ported head, euroboost tubes but stock intercooler, stock rebuilt glader and a 68mm pulley.

i want it to burn the tires in 2nd and right now they only spin when the tires gets light. ive debated on going to a smaller pulley but id like to find power elsewhere considering im not even properly tuned yet, just chipped. methanol injection has crossed my mind but an intercooler is ALWAYS there.


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## 71camaro (Apr 20, 2009)

John, any more details on the 11 second Scirocco? Suspension, interior, that sort of thing?


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

71camaro said:


> John, any more details on the 11 second Scirocco? Suspension, interior, that sort of thing?


heh... i had a 70-1/2 camaro when I was in my teens : )
the scirocco had no interior and ran h&r coil overs... it also had a spool.


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## Mr Roo (Aug 8, 2006)

I know there are benefits and disadvantages to both turbo and superchargers. This is just my opinion, but turbos have gotten so much better in the last couple of years and I think the knowledge around them is so much better as well. The guys that really have issues with turbos and lag have either gone with a cheap ebay or junk yard set ups that dont really fit their application. Basically the guys that have issues go out and pull a turbo from a diesel train and wondering why it doesnt work well or doesnt build any boost until 5k. I think the other achilles heel for older turbos was engine managment, which is leaps and bounds better. The real big selling point of a supercharger was ease of installation/packaging and ability to be in boost very quickly or off idle. Most of the newer turbo cars or guys that did their turbo right, you never feel or notice lag anymore and they dont seem to run out of steam on the top end. Again, I just really think this falls into which school of thought you like. Not that this is 8v related, but I watch a little bit of drag racing. More and more you see the former supercharged guys trying turbos and not going back.


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

Mr Roo said:


> I know there are benefits and disadvantages to both turbo and superchargers. This is just my opinion, but turbos have gotten so much better in the last couple of years and I think the knowledge around them is so much better as well. The guys that really have issues with turbos and lag have either gone with a cheap ebay or junk yard set ups that dont really fit their application. Basically the guys that have issues go out and pull a turbo from a diesel train and wondering why it doesnt work well or doesnt build any boost until 5k. I think the other achilles heel for older turbos was engine managment, which is leaps and bounds better. The real big selling point of a supercharger was ease of installation/packaging and ability to be in boost very quickly or off idle. Most of the newer turbo cars or guys that did their turbo right, you never feel or notice lag anymore and they dont seem to run out of steam on the top end. Again, I just really think this falls into which school of thought you like. Not that this is 8v related, but I watch a little bit of drag racing. More and more you see the former supercharged guys trying turbos and not going back.


Really.... I haven't seen much change in them. EFI and stand alone have been around forever now. I've ran ceramic ball bearing turbos since they came out and the new big deal billet wheel technology. The billet wheel deal is more of an oh boy its new technology marketing. They are a bit better. They still lag and.....pause between shifts.... So not really sure what you are referring to hear. I've got one car with a Garrett ceramic bearing GT30 billet wheel, also ran the GT28 and Precisions versions. Turbos still lag and need to build boost. Please show me this new no lag turbo technology.

You are seeing more turbos in drag racing because Lysholm type twin screws are not allowed in NHRA sanctioned events. They were banned due to what I understand was considered unfair advantage. Go do some research on this and check it out. I'd pull some good info up for you...but we are way slammed this time of year. So my time on here is starting to get limited. Top fuel still fasted cars in the world run superchargers. If they allowed the twin screw in NHRA sanctioned events, you would see these cars as the quickest on the planet.


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## petethepug (May 25, 2001)

Guaranteed no Lag Turbo right here buddy  

Computer Guided, Laser Cut 10 Blade Turbine
Spooling @ 20,000 RPMs+
Maximum Boost in less than 1/10 of a second
2” – 3.5” Rubber Couplers
High-Flow Air Filter
Step-by-step Installation Guide
Batteries not included
Heavy Duty Securing Clamps

What did I here em say about chrome and home?


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

Reason # 100,000,001


http://www.bahnbrenner.com/vw_audi/products/2652/NEW_BBM_G60_SUPERCHARGER_KIT


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

vdubCorrado said:


> as above i guess i was mistaken, i'm not a heating and air conditioning person haha just in context it seemed as if they were discussing the screw type chargers but after reading he referred to as scroll... my bad... though i would rather a G60 over a centrifugal haha
> 
> though makes me wonder how did the G60 "lysholm" get that nickname? being the charger is clearly an Opcon by the case as opposed to Lysholm chargers having heat sink fins like Eaton has used for years. oh and if we're speaking affiliation Opcon is actually the parent company to Lysholm. Also you, BBM, publicly offer up the info that the charger is an Opcon Autorotor 2087. i have always been baffled by that... really miss mine though :banghead:


This is a long and complicated, confusing topic.
The history of Elliott-Lysholm. The screw type charger was invented by another man earlier in history. The technology was not there to mfg. it. Elliott was the first to mfg. a twin screw unit. The article I have in my hands is dated June, 1943 Initially the Lysholm twin screw cooled and exchanged the air in a jet fighter cabin. This technology is also used for air compressor units, we have one that supplies our machine shop. Yes Lysholm sounds cool, SRM owns the rights to this name and we will no longer use it. cheers


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## DubCorrado (Aug 7, 2009)

Damn that new supercharger unit looks so damn sexy 

Is it possible for you to post a side by side comparison of the technical specifications of this new unit with the "old" Autorotor SR 2087? Max air flow, achievable engine output, compression, etc, etc.


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

weekend...:beer:...


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## Estimatd (Feb 15, 2002)

These past 4 pages were a great read, thanks! actually convinced me not to go turbo if I keep the C.


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## scrapper (Feb 17, 2007)

Here's some cool tec stuff that's being used with a turbo set ups for anti lag. It's been around for some time and getting more refined over time. Seems to be working well for Subaru guys. I also talked to some Supra/RX7 guys this weekend using there own design with success. 





 If you wait until the first S12 that appears in the video below, you can hear the engine idle change. They leave the start line at 1800 rpm and 3.5 BAR absoloute boost pressure which is 51.45 PSI of boost. The ford/skoda and Grp N cars leave at 5-6000rpm.


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## Estimatd (Feb 15, 2002)

That's some cool shiz, any explanation of the technology?


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## scrapper (Feb 17, 2007)

Heres some info http://www.racedandrallied.com/tech...tion-of-the-subaru-wrc-rocket-anti-lag-system 

The "rocket" is a device is fitted to the header just in front of the turbo and works as a sophisticated anti-lag system. Air and fuel are fed into a combustion chamber and ignited by a spark on over-run, it can be used in three stages (depending on how long you want the engine to last) and is the cause of the loud banging noise that can be heard as these cars pass by and the flames coming out of the tail pipe. This system is used in conjunction with the boost pack which stores excess pressure in it's own reservoir to be fed back into the engine inlet side of the inter cooler when the throttle is depressed after shut off. All this is coupled to the "flat change" gear shift and launch control system which is of course controlled the the ECU. 

I need something like this for my Corrado SLC that has a GT40r.


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## Estimatd (Feb 15, 2002)

Thanks for the info and read :thumbup: 

The thing that would worry me is the 'how long do you want your engine to last' part...


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## REPOMAN (May 3, 2001)

scrapper said:


> *Anyone know what the fastest g60 qtr mile time with a BBM super charger is? Full weight or gutted?*


Gutted is 11.60 
Full body weight is 13.1
1990 G60 Corrado Front and rear seats. drove it to and from the track
on a Lysholm w/100k on it and over spun most of it's life.


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## nated392 (Mar 15, 2012)

no offense but screw the turbo in a g60 I would give almost ANYTHING to have that new lysholm set up in my car! hell id do almost anything just to get a g60 back in it (damn internals blowing) :'( so hard being a corrado enthusiast as a busser at a restaurant while going to school as well.....


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## petethepug (May 25, 2001)

Off topic ... No worry. Pay (for school) now, play (with your money) later. New study says students earning associates degrees make more. Kudo's to you and thank you to all who serve in our armed forces to use that G.I. bill. :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 25, 2009)

This was a great read. Lots of info just dropped in from no where. In my opinion. After owning a few turbo boosted cars and then buying a g60. I don't really see how you all even argued with this guy. A turbo is a very crude way of forcing air....hot air at that and most know that every 10° drop in intake temp equals about 1 up. Along with that no turbo has been made to "fix" lag. They will always have lag. Why do you think large trucks use a turbo and not a SC. It would be instant power and **** would then snap. Its really not that hard to think about. Yes a turbo will spool much faster and in the end force a higher psi. But its not instant power and a SC is close. Ill be one to say I think its rude andtacky to take a SC platform car and slap in a bunch of bent pipes. Blow off valve and a turbo. Its a corrado guys. Not a Integra.:banghead:


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## macdadmorgan (Jun 6, 2001)

JBETZ said:


> Every new Lysholm we have sold has come with a full one year warranty. We started this kit back in 1998 so many are getting very old with high mileage. Since 1998 we have replaced or repaired very few 1 in about 100 or only about 1%
> 
> If you have a BBM supercharger that is 4+ years old with high miles or over driven and raced. It is a really good idea to have it rebuilt by us and start a new fresh life with all new bearings and seals.
> 
> ...


 

Do you still support these kits? I mean do you rebuild the lysholm that you sold 14 years ago? 
Thanks 
Morgan


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

macdadmorgan said:


> Do you still support these kits? I mean do you rebuild the lysholm that you sold 14 years ago?
> Thanks
> Morgan


 yes we do :thumbup:


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## wed3k (Feb 22, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> This was a great read. Lots of info just dropped in from no where. In my opinion. After owning a few turbo boosted cars and then buying a g60. I don't really see how you all even argued with this guy. A turbo is a very crude way of forcing air....hot air at that and most know that every 10° drop in intake temp equals about 1 up. Along with that no turbo has been made to "fix" lag. They will always have lag. Why do you think large trucks use a turbo and not a SC. It would be instant power and **** would then snap. Its really not that hard to think about. Yes a turbo will spool much faster and in the end force a higher psi. But its not instant power and a SC is close. Ill be one to say I think its rude andtacky to take a SC platform car and slap in a bunch of bent pipes. Blow off valve and a turbo. Its a corrado guys. Not a Integra.:banghead:


 i don't know if it is my setup but i have lag on my build. i was pretty conservative on the port work too. at 3500, it RIPS...like it rips so hard itll break the tires loose in 2nd gear. 68mm stock unported charger too lol. 

however the next motor will be 1.8t


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## scrapper (Feb 17, 2007)

I think JBETz title says it all - Why NOT to install a turbo on the G60 8v engine that was engineered for a supercharger! 

The car was engineered for a supercharger. If you build the motor for a turbo it will be a different story in the straight. 
I have a G60 that rips well 16-18psi  but with my turbo vr Corrado in turbo lag condition is way faster even when I had a small turbo and stock trans. G60 is a fun street car. 

You cant just throw a turbo on a car and expect it to perform properly as some has tried.


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## mateok (Mar 14, 2001)

*: ) Why NOT to install a turbo on the G60 8v engine that was engineered for a s*



wed3k said:


> i don't know if it is my setup but i have lag on my build. i was pretty conservative on the port work too. at 3500, it RIPS...like it rips so hard itll break the tires loose in 2nd gear. 68mm stock unported charger too lol.
> 
> however the next motor will be 1.8t


 Unless you have an SNS chip, that probably Digi-lag you're experiencing.


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

mateok said:


> Unless you have an SNS chip, that probably Digi-lag you're experiencing.


 for the record, digi-lag does not come from the chip tune. great marketing tho! lag comes from issues from something not quite right in the digi 1 system. 
see this thread as these many things cause digi lag. 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?1486100-G60-Tuning-and-Common-G60-Info 
to my knowledge we hold the 1/4 mile G60 world record with our software. we did not do it with lag. Also way up there with the real SAE hp dyno numbers. Gota love it when you see guys claiming 300 whp on g-lader  
peace


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## evosilica (Mar 6, 2012)

JBETZ said:


> for the record, digi-lag does not come from the chip tune. great marketing tho! lag comes from issues from something not quite right in the digi 1 system.


 It comes from the Digi1 program-code, which is contained in the chip. So, yes, it can be corrected with a proper chip.


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## mateok (Mar 14, 2001)

*: ) Why NOT to install a turbo on the G60 8v engine that was engineered for a s*

I won't even begin to portray that I know as much about chip tuning as BBM or SNS. With that being said, I drove my G60 for the entire 90's decade with what I thought was supercharger "lag". 

Mkrad explained to me what caused it and said he could eliminate it. After I installed his chip, that ridiculous hesitation ended. It was explained to me as a built in slight hesitation before it goes into closed loop. What ghost in the machine is responsible, I don't know.


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

if we are talking about the stock chips, yes they are very prone to the lag and it gets worse if you start doing mods. yes i will agree a good program will help to keep the system from the dreaded lag. an improper tune for what combination you are running will most certainly magnify this. however most every Corrado G60 that I have worked on in my shop had the dreaded lag from issues in the system making the ecu go into, lag, rich or lean mode. so yes in away my comment was right and also wrong. curing a car with other issues that are making it lag with a chip, don't think so!


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## wed3k (Feb 22, 2010)

JBETZ said:


> if we are talking about the stock chips, yes they are very prone to the lag and it gets worse if you start doing mods. yes i will agree a good program will help to keep the system from the dreaded lag. an improper tune for what combination you are running will most certainly magnify this. however most every Corrado G60 that I have worked on in my shop had the dreaded lag from issues in the system making the ecu go into, lag, rich or lean mode. so yes in away my comment was right and also wrong. curing a car with other issues that are making it lag with a chip, don't think so!


 bbm stage 4, been tempted on calling BBM and see if they can alter the chip for my 9:1 compression pistons because the stock tune is supposed to accommodate the stock compression. its already running lean at cruise (confirmed with wideband)


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

wed3k said:


> bbm stage 4, been tempted on calling BBM and see if they can alter the chip for my 9:1 compression pistons because the stock tune is supposed to accommodate the stock compression. its already running lean at cruise (confirmed with wideband)


 you can run a standard stage 4 tune at 9:1, if you need to just back your timing off a bit at the distributor and be sure to time it by the G60 procedure.


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## jeffs vw (Apr 29, 2007)

JBETZ said:


> Yes, more hp does not make for a quicker car... When we were running our drag Scirocco it would beat turbo cars that had much more hp, even cars that had an additional 100 hp. This red Honda was claiming to make over 350hp. We were making about 240 wheel hp. This chart shows the torque difference and the turbo still has more wheel hp. Also you have to account for turbo lag and believe me turbo lag is always a big deal when going up against a supercharged car.


 This Video is what i like to see!!!! Turbo Honda getting left by a G60! Enough said!!!!!!:wave 

John i will post a video soon as i finish in the next 2 weeks on my rabbit g60 build.


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## Golfwa78 (Jul 4, 2008)

this thread is great, i was contemplating going turbo with my G60. Not anymore! :beer:


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

Golfwa78 said:


> this thread is great, i was contemplating going turbo with my G60. Not anymore! :beer:


I know several people who have turbo'd their G60. I dont know a single person who regrets it.


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## petethepug (May 25, 2001)

Here's a time capsule ... *G60 turbo = good or bad? *


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

TBT-Syncro said:


> I know several people who have turbo'd their G60. I dont know a single person who regrets it.


I'm in the middle of a Turbo Conversion myself. Guess I'll see what happens.  

I'm doing a crossflow head, on a 9:1 1.8 bottom end. Running a straight T3 50trim (a bit under the normal 60 trim) I'm trying to be realistic about my peak numbers, and the cars driveability. Even though I still will run Nitrous on it, and my friends were pushing for a big dirty T3/T4 since nitrous can spool it almost instantly. I was trying to keep a decent driver with a fast spool. With the Gladder it pulled great from 3000rpm on, and I'd like to keep that. I'd be more then happy if it could put down 200whp off spray, and 250whp on.


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## rodperformance (Oct 9, 2010)

*hi mate*

Hi mate!! Definately,youll get 200hp @ 15psi ir more with the 272 CAM ,my conservative guess Is 250-275 on spray,mine Is holding pretty good,hope yo hear from you mate!!later Roderick.


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## turboSlap (Feb 5, 2009)

*: ) Why NOT to install a turbo on the G60 8v engine that was engineered for a s*

Ip


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## mateok (Mar 14, 2001)

*: ) Why NOT to install a turbo on the G60 8v engine that was engineered for a...*



petethepug said:


> Here's a time capsule ... *G60 turbo = good or bad? *


Good read. The last post sums it up. 


turboconversion said:


> it kicks in later, torque curve is different. you kinda have a peak at +/-3500rpm, below 2500 i find it a lame car... with the turbo that is...


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## connorox (Sep 10, 2013)

I have a better idea then turbo or supercharge... why not both? It's been done in other cars why not the g60?


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

There has been guys that have twin charged on here. Both with a turbo and a supercharger, and one guy with 2 Gladder!

Thinking about this thread now, it's not even titled correctly. The 8v was never technically designed or engineered for a supercharger. If you look at the engine family and what VW did with them. They offered the diesel's in turbo, and the the Audi 5 cyl, which is really a 8v counterflow with another cylinder on the end, and it came turbo well before VW fitted the G60 with a supercharger. There was probably a very specific reason why VW did what they did, but who really knows? Really a K24 or K26 woudl have took them rallye racing just the same, and proven more reliable for us the end user.

The thread is more of a general debate of Turbo's vs Superchargers.


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## petethepug (May 25, 2001)

Unrelated but lysholm specific. 07 Chevy Tahoe with a lysholm twin screw @ 8lb & 400hp.


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

I have had this one out for nearly 15 years now and still no takers and there never will be, lol 
$1000 bucks on the table to beat the BBM Twin Screw with a turbo in the 1/8 mile or 1/4 mile.
This is using an internally stock 1.8L PG 8v engine on the factory management.
Same tires, same diff, same weight car.
This is not about building a $100k no limit single digit race car against this engine.... :what:


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

JBETZ said:


> I have had this one out for nearly 15 years now and still no takers and there never will be, lol
> $1000 bucks on the table to beat the BBM Twin Screw with a turbo in the 1/8 mile or 1/4 mile.
> This is using an internally stock 1.8L PG 8v engine on the factory management.
> Same tires, same diff, same weight car.
> This is not about building a $100k no limit single digit race car against this engine.... :what:


So what time did it run in the 1/4? And on what tires? What are the specs on the car exactly? 

After finishing my swap to turbo, this is no way in hell I would ever want to go back to a G-lader. Only a +40hp increase at the same exact boost levels, on the same exact management. Lysolm might be a different story with higher CFM and/or efficiency, but this song and dance is dead. Turbos's won. The biggest catch to this challenge is literally nobody is going to build that engine anymore. There is no reason to do a turbo PG, when you have the bigger displacement, better head design ABA's lying around every junkyard. Hell there probably isn't that many PG or Digifant 1 cars kicking around North America anymore, period. I probably came the closest in recent years doing a 1.8 bottom end, running Digi 1 still, but I still switched to a ABA head for obvious reasons. Why would I use a counter flow head and make life harder then it has to be. Same kinda goes for Digi 1, it's already a stumbling point, (already forced to use an extra injector to keep from leaning out at high boost) and standalone is very likely my next purchase.

Hell we have a whole thread on the 'tex about turbo ABA's making 200- 300whp, and even 400whp+. Several of them are 12 and 11 second cars, there is a 10 second ABA turbo rabbit (open diff 020 I believe). And yeah we can argue semantics, and say these aren't PG's, but they are awfully close in design. What I'm getting at it is, if in some weird parallel universe 9 out of 10 mk3's had a PG in them, then we would see PG turbo's putting out 300-400whp and not these ABA's. Then your challenge would have long been smashed. 

Not to mention it's a pretty stacked challenge, it preys on the weakness of Digifant 1 not being able to supply enough fuel at high boost level, you almost need to use a supercharger and make the power under the curve, where you can keep enough fuel in it. The turbo car would make it's ground at high rpm/high boost, where Digifant just isn't capable.

Much prefer turbo noise to Lysholm whine too. It would be hard to live with a twin screw on a car I drive as much as I do my Jetta.


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## petethepug (May 25, 2001)

I just repurchased the lysholm silencer kit I sold a few months ago. A lysholm was thrown into a package deal with it. Oh God, this car is gonna fly when it's done. 2014 was a year of parts hunting. 2015 is build time!


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

G60 Carat said:


> So what time did it run in the 1/4? And on what tires? What are the specs on the car exactly?
> 
> After finishing my swap to turbo, this is no way in hell I would ever want to go back to a G-lader. Only a +40hp increase at the same exact boost levels, on the same exact management. Lysolm might be a different story with higher CFM and/or efficiency, but this song and dance is dead. Turbos's won. The biggest catch to this challenge is literally nobody is going to build that engine anymore. There is no reason to do a turbo PG, when you have the bigger displacement, better head design ABA's lying around every junkyard. Hell there probably isn't that many PG or Digifant 1 cars kicking around North America anymore, period. I probably came the closest in recent years doing a 1.8 bottom end, running Digi 1 still, but I still switched to a ABA head for obvious reasons. Why would I use a counter flow head and make life harder then it has to be. Same kinda goes for Digi 1, it's already a stumbling point, (already forced to use an extra injector to keep from leaning out at high boost) and standalone is very likely my next purchase.
> 
> ...


In 2007 we held an event at the Woodburn drag-strip called the Autoblitzkrieg. 
The same offer was on the table for the Mk3 platform.
I believe someone called me a tool or a db in another thread.... been awhile now 
We ran two identical Mk3 GTI's one with the BBM Twin Screw Stage III and the other was the Stage III Kinetic turbo kit.
The turbo car made I believe 30-40 more wheel hp......didn't help it any, lol 
Both cars ran the same tires and were in street trim with LSD installed.
The BBM Supercharger car beat the turbo car by over 1 full second.
We won the 2004 1.8T challenge against 15 of the top tuner cars in the nation with a large twin screw, some from out of county.
When you start talking about 400 hp this and 10 second that or even single digit cars....that is not what this challange is or ever was about.
It is about taking apples to apples cars one with turbo and one with the twin screw.
We have raced against some pretty high budget 8v race cars....takes allot of money to make them quick with a turbo.
The Mk3 twin screw kit is not very loud at all, the t-body is before the charger inlet. It is about half the sound of the G60 set up.
We have a new kit in the works this year on an undisclosed engine platform using the 500bhp head unit. It too will be pretty quiet with the t-body at the inlet side of the compressor.
And yes there are still a ton of 8v cars running on factory management. We sell tons of parts for these cars every day of the week 24/7 
By the way I also like a nice turbo set up, both are fun but also very different. 
Thanks for your post.


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## wolfcastle (Jul 28, 2006)

There's also such a thing as the real world that needs to be taken into consideration. 

I've been to the track in my old 1.8t and vs. friends, who had more mods than I did, was able to clip times about .8 to 1sec faster. Quarter mile times can vary greatly between drivers and individual cars. It would be helpful to have time slips to compare differences in 60' times and trap speeds. 

Also, if a supercharger head unit breaks, you are pretty much SOL. You hold the lot of old used rebuilt auto rotor units and historically do not sell them individually...unless the customer purchased the whole kit from you....and that is even if you have any in stock at the time. 

A new t series journal bearing oil lubricated turbo goes for around $800-950 bucks. What of your new kit, if you do base it on the aba motor I assume it will be a new sprintex unit? What do those go for? 3k range? pass. I don't really get where you come up with the (aba takes a lot of money to make quick with a turbo." Its essentially the same exact parts minus the head unit/turbo. You have also said yourself that you do not warranty the stage 3 kits and you are going into the "grey area" when spinning them up to 15psi. A turbo can RELIABLY make 15-20 PSI for a long time.

So yeah, I see the case for people going turbo over S/C.

opcorn:


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

Yes we have had some isolated issues with customers over driving our old Opcon units
We have a few of these left new old stock and that will be then end of these units.

Many people would knowingly over drive these units to over 20 psi and over 20k rpm.

Our new and larger Twin Screw Sprintex RS300 will make over 20psi without going past the manufactures recommend 15k rpm limit.
Not sure how much boost we will see with the even larger RS500 units... time will tell.
These will be available this spring.


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## wolfcastle (Jul 28, 2006)

You'll put about 2k of skin into the game between manifold, turbo and downpipe. There are still people out there making manifolds, and used ones have become hard to find.

20psi from a charger on this motor....im assuming that would be your higher stage kit. Hope it comes with a decent set of rods...20psi with that much CFM will create a LOT of torque at the lower range...rod bend territory. 

I would still sleep better knowing that at the end of the day, if my turbo breaks it also does not break my bank...but I may be biased based on my broken supercharger experience.


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

Turbo pricing and availability is another huge factor I didn't even touch on. That's what ultimately lead me to do a turbo conversion, and luckily, no regrets whatsoever.


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

G60 Carat said:


> Turbo pricing and availability is another huge factor I didn't even touch on. That's what ultimately lead me to do a turbo conversion, and luckily, no regrets whatsoever.


Yes as noted the turbo conversion can work and run ok for some people on the G60.
We have sold plenty of turbo kits and also installed them on the G60
Very hit and miss running a turbo on digifant.
Definitely the slower set up running a turbo on a G60 8v
By the way, this is the G60 PG 8v forum, not ABA
And there is no ABA turbo kit on the market....


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## wolfcastle (Jul 28, 2006)

You're the one who brought up mk3's and the Auto rotor units vs. Kinetic in your own thread...figured it was fair game. Kinetic stopped making the kit...boo hoo...manifolds are available. Still tons of people Turboing ABA's

Like G60 said, there are very few PG motors in USA kicking around. Far less that have even tried to do a turbo conversion.

Just listing the benefits of going turbo...easy upgradeability to larger internal turbo's etc., boost pressure changes on demand (not having to change pulleys), Historic reliability and the turbo itself is far less expensive...there's more too. Also like G60 said, Turbo's won the game. Not to say that superchargers cant be cool...But there are definite reason why turbo's are more popular. As usual, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

The title does not say Turbo VS. Supercharger

Yes and we smoked the ABA 8v turbo kit at the track with our supercharger too, also on the 1.8T 

Definitely boo hoo for most people if they want a turbo. Not too many people have the time tools or knowledge to build a forced induction set up from scratch.
I sold a couple of ABA 8v turbo hardware only set ups over the last 30 days. Just hardware alone came in at nearly $3k
This did not include intercooler tubing, intake or down pipe fabrication and fitment.
Doing a good turbo set up from scratch takes way more time and money than people lead on in here.

Yes there are way more turbos out there. Superchargers are more expensive to integrate and require engineering, rather than just bolting a turbo onto a manifold.
A good turbo that might have a chance to compete with a twin screw supercharger is about the same price as a good supercharger head unit.

The real point of the thread is to explain the engineering that went into the G60 engine and management that is in support of a supercharger.


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

JBETZ said:


> By the way, this is the G60 PG 8v forum, not ABA


Yeah, but my car is officially powered by nothing now.

It's 1.8 bottom end (9:1) with an ABA OBDII 'German' or 'S' head,(Ported, TT-HD springs, Schrick 272), and running on SNS chipped Digifant I, and single fogger wet. 

So it's not an ABA, it's not a G60, it's not an 8v, it's a tiny bit of all three. So I browse/post in all 3 forums.


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## yip (Jul 14, 2003)

wolfcastle said:


> You're the one who brought up mk3's and the Auto rotor units vs. Kinetic in your own thread...figured it was fair game. Kinetic stopped making the kit...boo hoo...manifolds are available. Still tons of people Turboing ABA's
> 
> Like G60 said, there are very few PG motors in USA kicking around. Far less that have even tried to do a turbo conversion.
> 
> Just listing the benefits of going turbo...easy upgradeability to larger internal turbo's etc., boost pressure changes on demand (not having to change pulleys), Historic reliability and the turbo itself is far less expensive...there's more too. Also like G60 said, Turbo's won the game. Not to say that superchargers cant be cool...But there are definite reason why turbo's are more popular. As usual, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.


I haven't had any issues finding a PG motor after blowing up the last 3  

Funny that people still bite the bait of this thread years later. Fact is that John has PROOF that apples to apples bolt on kit vs bolt on kit the Lysholm OWNED. 

From my own personal experience I NEVER lost a race with my PG Lysholm setup against any of the local ABA turbo guys with my lysholm bolt on kit at 17psi and still using the factory intercooler. I remember way way back Renner had built my buddies G60 with a T3 Super 60 setup. He spent a TON of money for those guys to build his car. First night out at the races I was hurting his ego so bad he kept turning up the boost until he popped the motor :O

We get it that you guys like your Turbo setups but try not to get so butt hurt over this thread because unfortunately as stated previously John has the proof to back up his claims.


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

This got washed into a BBM twin screw plug.
Not the real point of this thread, a part of it though 
I mentioned this earlier in the thread
The best choice for this engine is the good old g-lader or another positive displacement supercharger.
That is, unless you want to go for lower performance and a high chance of running issues with turbo+ digifant.


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## JagermeisterG60 (Apr 16, 2009)

*G60 setup*

Hey there,

So whats your secret? Since from what I have seen a lot higher HP is achieved going turbo. Mine is still orginal setupd with stage 3 pully kit but I wanted more so was thinking about going turbo or a swap.


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## petethepug (May 25, 2001)

Drop a 1.8t from an early A4 or Mk IV (AEB, AGU) 20V engineered to run a turbo. HP increases are available at a linear rate that graduate with cost = WIN.

It works we'll because that's what those 20V motors were designed for. John's point is that 1.8T vs 1.8 g lader (PG) vs a 1.8 (PG) swap'd to a turbo are different animals. Every time someone throws a turbo on a PG motor they're already behind what a 1.8T motor swap would do for the car in comparable dollars. The flow rate of a 2V PG head is so far behind a 5V AEB it's not funny. It's rewarding to get a 1.8 PG to out perform a g lader car. It can be done, and there's nothing wrong with doing it. It's best said that a turbo PG motor needs more dyno numbers and a build list to accurately calculate an apples to apples comparison for a clear winner in this thread. 


BTW sorry to get all geeked up about the lysholm in this thread. It's a magic potion for the g60 with an intoxicating swan song. It gives the g60 big swinging balls and legend status as they become less common.


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## rabbitturdracer (Jan 15, 2004)

ok jbetz, I've been following this thread forever for the amusement I guess. It is pretty funny. These motors, like you say, are "tank like" built, almost exact looking to the 1.6 diesels and 1.7l. I've never upgraded the bottom ends, other than hardware, They are plenty strong. I'm bored and game for your challenge. Lay your rules down, and be detailed. What are your numbers? hp/tq, qt mile?

Motor has to be totally stock? no arp, no cam, no timing gear, no porting?
ecm=digi 1? stock, stock map sensor, no sensor mods, injectors? tuning?
trans? code, gear ratio, diff, poor man posi, stock axles?
tires? street, drag radial, slicks?
platform? mk1,2, corrado? weight? mods?

My current setup is:
83 gti 1800lbs, 1950 rtr
14" mt drag radials
gy 4 speed trans, w/ poor man posi, stock axles
stock internal pg no port work, arp hardware all around, 276 cam, cam gear
precision 5431 running 30lbs
Good ol' budget digi 1 tuned by me (thanks to the guys on ecu connections for getting me started, you know who you are:thumbup, 3 bar map, 2 step
3.5bar fpr, 42lb fm injectors

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16090118893/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16502778237/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16710068665/

Match my setup? or i'll compromise to yours? either way I'm staying mk1, that's what I own a lot of. I'll add weight if needed.

Let the fun begin


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

yip said:


> From my own personal experience I NEVER lost a race with my PG Lysholm setup against any of the local ABA turbo guys


Maybe you just have a bunch of slow local guys?

The Turbo ABA thread is full of cars running anywhere from 10's (Drag rabbit) to low 15's. (full weight, low boost MK3) Several like Daskoupes MK2, are just stock junkyard ABA's. That car has ran many 12.2's.


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## wolfcastle (Jul 28, 2006)

rabbitturdracer said:


> ok jbetz, I've been following this thread forever for the amusement I guess. It is pretty funny. These motors, like you say, are "tank like" built, almost exact looking to the 1.6 diesels and 1.7l. I've never upgraded the bottom ends, other than hardware, They are plenty strong. I'm bored and game for your challenge. Lay your rules down, and be detailed. What are your numbers? hp/tq, qt mile?
> 
> Motor has to be totally stock? no arp, no cam, no timing gear, no porting?
> ecm=digi 1? stock, stock map sensor, no sensor mods, injectors? tuning?
> ...


Nice setup!


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

G60 Carat said:


> Maybe you just have a bunch of slow local guys?
> 
> The Turbo ABA thread is full of cars running anywhere from 10's (Drag rabbit) to low 15's. (full weight, low boost MK3) Several like Daskoupes MK2, are just stock junkyard ABA's. That car has ran many 12.2's.


This one seems to always go way off point and topic.
This is not about building the quickest all in 8v 1/4 mile car.
It is about running equal cars, stock engines and stock management running off the shelf bolt on forced induction kits.
There is no off the shelf ABA kit at this time, when there was we beat it.
The majority of people do not build these one-off 1/4 mile set ups.
I do love seeing super quick FWD 1/4 mile cars.
These challenges have already been done on the PG and the ABA, also time attack style on the 1.8T
At this time we are working on supercharger projects on engines with more than 8 valves.
If you have a G60 PG engine just keep in mind that if you go turbo your car will be slower than a good g-lader and might possibly run really bad. If you want a smoking fast PG 8v, there is nothing on planet earth quicker than a BBM Twin Screw


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

rabbitturdracer

love your rabbit, nice build :thumbup:


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## wolfcastle (Jul 28, 2006)

Why the emphasis on discrediting cars that have been built and not an off the shelf kit?

Just because it doesn't fit within the confines of your "game" does not make it irrelevant. And a high horsepower aba or PG turbo is not a "1/4 mile car" one trick pony. I would argue that these turbo cars are more daily driveable, reliable and streetable than the highest horsepower, stage 3 or more, BBM car.

Im saying this because stage 3 18psi or 20psi on a autorotor, like you have said, is like "predicting Chaos" and going past the "Engineered limits"



Put a journal bearing t3/t4 up to 20 psi all day long. Garrets are usually bullet proof. Put $1000 on that one.


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## jeffs vw (Apr 29, 2007)

*Lysholm*

Interesting topic.
Im a fan of both Supercharged & Turbo Old motor I built 
Twin Screw 8V PG motor....... LOVED IT INSTANT POWER...... Was never beat that I could recall versus 500 to 600HP Turbo Hondas Muscle Cars and even a Tesla at Socal Euro etc:laugh:




New Motor I just built now for ****s and giggles which is about to come out of my car to go back to a Lysholm 16v with Bigger BBM Lysholm Unit on Megasquirt!


Please don't get me wrong either turbos are fun but not like a charger! Just my .02 but im old and still playing with 20+Year old motors


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## JBETZ (Feb 17, 2000)

I like both a good turbo car and supercharged engine too 
My daily driver right now is a turbo car, I've owned a half dozen or more now.
Turbo does really well with the double clutch cars....helps to keep in the booost.
We also sell parts for turbo customers every single day.
Point of the thread as the title states "G60 8v"
My next 4 cyl. project is with the big RS-500 unit
Jeff that thing is ridiculous and I see some BBM turbo parts on there!


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## rabbitturdracer (Jan 15, 2004)

thanks, its budget built less than 2k into it. some ebay china stuff, some good stuff. that setup is for the 1/4 and street pulls. I use a smaller turbo for auto cross. takes under an hour to switch it out.
that's a lot of stuff under the hood jeff, but clean:thumbup:. 16vt is sick too!! I love the old motors they take a lot more abuse, and are cheap.

im still in to play the turbo game whats the magic number?


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## jeffs vw (Apr 29, 2007)

rabbitturdracer said:


> thanks, its budget built less than 2k into it. some ebay china stuff, some good stuff. that setup is for the 1/4 and street pulls. I use a smaller turbo for auto cross. takes under an hour to switch it out.
> that's a lot of stuff under the hood jeff, but clean:thumbup:. 16vt is sick too!! I love the old motors they take a lot more abuse, and are cheap.
> 
> im still in to play the turbo game whats the magic number?


Ive been avoiding it lately cause been trying to finish my caddy but we played with it on my fabricators shop dyno which is all wheel drive mustang dyno. at 10 psi it made 327HP 22psi putting down 406HP and kept smoking tires so we stopped tuning gonna go back with my slicks on it. Not fully tuned yet either but in no hurry.


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

rabbitturdracer said:


> ok jbetz, I've been following this thread forever for the amusement I guess. It is pretty funny. These motors, like you say, are "tank like" built, almost exact looking to the 1.6 diesels and 1.7l. I've never upgraded the bottom ends, other than hardware, They are plenty strong. I'm bored and game for your challenge. Lay your rules down, and be detailed. What are your numbers? hp/tq, qt mile?
> 
> Motor has to be totally stock? no arp, no cam, no timing gear, no porting?
> ecm=digi 1? stock, stock map sensor, no sensor mods, injectors? tuning?
> ...


Before I switch to standalone, I'd love to hear how you got a 3 bar MAP to work with Digi 1. I'm pretty happy with how my car runs, but I'm at the limit of what I can run for boost levels. I'd like to be able to run 20, up to maybe even 25psi. I have the fuel system, intercooler, head work, cam, and even my current turbo would be happier at 20+. Digi 1 is what's holding me back from going to the next level. It's why I'm still relying on nitrous to get me to where I want to be.


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## rabbitturdracer (Jan 15, 2004)

I was where your at a while ago when I built my aba 16vt before they were a though of swap. Digi 1 is a ok budget system for boost. It has it's limits, but can go pretty far. Its batch fired so all the injectors spray at once not the greatest for economy but it works. My car gets 25-32 mpg depending how I drive. 
Check out ecu connections a lot of good info is there. Pretty much soldier in a 3bar map sensor and change the linerization code of the maps. Remember Digi 1 uses the map sensor for quite a bit of operations, they all have to be changed. If your only looking for 22-25 lbs go with a 2.5 bar. That's what I use to run, no point in running a Bigger sensor if yor not using all the Cells in the map. You'll need a few things to do your own tuning but it's pretty easy. I'm not a software/coding engineer, if I figured it out anybody can just do some research. 
I can help, but won't hold your hand. You wont learn anything that way


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## Albert87 (Sep 15, 2011)

Just adding some info about the head flow

there is a A head and P Head
and the P head has bigger vales and ports
and still plenty of meat for porting it a little bit bigger/better

for the rest interesting topic this learned a few things here :thumbup:


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

rabbitturdracer said:


> I was where your at a while ago when I built my aba 16vt before they were a though of swap. Digi 1 is a ok budget system for boost. It has it's limits, but can go pretty far. Its batch fired so all the injectors spray at once not the greatest for economy but it works. My car gets 25-32 mpg depending how I drive.
> Check out ecu connections a lot of good info is there. Pretty much soldier in a 3bar map sensor and change the linerization code of the maps. Remember Digi 1 uses the map sensor for quite a bit of operations, they all have to be changed. If your only looking for 22-25 lbs go with a 2.5 bar. That's what I use to run, no point in running a Bigger sensor if yor not using all the Cells in the map. You'll need a few things to do your own tuning but it's pretty easy. I'm not a software/coding engineer, if I figured it out anybody can just do some research.
> I can help, but won't hold your hand. You wont learn anything that way


I thought about this, but then I realized it's not the best idea. Even if I bought my own eprom programmer, and soldered in a 3 bar, or adapted it to use an external MAP sensor. It would be a great experience, but I wouldn't be learning anything useful. Nothing I could to apply to other builds later on down the road.

Best to just learn MS2/MS3, Haltech, AEM EMS 4, or the like and go from there. If I decide to build a turbo Toyota down the road, at least that is experience I can take with me. Digifant hacking is a pretty niche skill.


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## eagc (Feb 24, 2008)

Hey Johnny

since i have reading this thread, I have a question.... how about supercharge a awp block, with g60 head ??


asking because I have the g60 with your stage 5 parts, with head, but I have a 1.8t awp block
have you ever done something like that ?

cheers


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## eagc (Feb 24, 2008)

Never mind, just saw it cant be done


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## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

eagc said:


> Hey Johnny
> 
> since i have reading this thread, I have a question.... how about supercharge a awp block, with g60 head ??
> 
> ...


If you used 1.8t pistons under a G60 head, you would have 12.25:1 compression ratio, but I feel there is likely a million little things to address to make it work. I personally feel there is no advantage here. the 1.8t bottom end is not any bigger, and not really any stronger than a PG. An ABA bottom end would probably net more power gains. Bigger displacement, and higher compression. (Higher than PG block, but still suitable for boost)


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

You could put the G60 rods and Pistons in the AWP block and use the G60 head but why? And it would take some fabbing to mount the G60.


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## eagc (Feb 24, 2008)

I mean, is there any mod for the internal watter pump ?
I saw in older threads only can be use thos old 1.8t blocks for been external watter pump




G60 Carat said:


> If you used 1.8t pistons under a G60 head, you would have 12.25:1 compression ratio, but I feel there is likely a million little things to address to make it work. I personally feel there is no advantage here. the 1.8t bottom end is not any bigger, and not really any stronger than a PG. An ABA bottom end would probably net more power gains. Bigger displacement, and higher compression. (Higher than PG block, but still suitable for boost)





vwpat said:


> You could put the G60 rods and Pistons in the AWP block and use the G60 head but why? And it would take some fabbing to mount the G60.


I have the G60 head
G60 pistons with rods
stage 5 BBM camshaft


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

I am not sure how the brackets would bolt to an O6A block. Maybe INA or someone else has looked into it.


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