# CIS-E cranks a lot before firing



## wikdslo (Mar 13, 2005)

This is a 16V Scirocco running CIS-E.
Previously, I never had this issue. The car would crank and fire right away.
A couple of days after having it out of storage for the winter, I found that I had to crank for several seconds before it would want to fire up.
I had replaced the fuel pump as my old fuel pump had a check valve, that basically had no bits in it to do the job of the check valve, but the issue persisted.
When I yanked the injectors last time, they were shooting dry for the 5 ~ 10 seconds of cranking before it started to fire. 
I checked for fuel leaks, but can't find anything. 
If I start the car when cold or after a long time, this happens. If i shut the car down and fire it back up again, warm or cold, it fires up right away because the residual fuel pressure is there.
I checked my cold start, and it sprays right away when cranking.
Any ideas?


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## wikdslo (Mar 13, 2005)

*Re: CIS-E cranks a lot before firing (wikdslo)*

A bit more diagnostic work here. 
When i cracked the line on the 5th injector, it sprays fuel all over. 
When i crack the line on any other injector, it does nothing. Sometimes a little fuel leaks out eventually.
Should I have some pressure in those lines?


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## wclark (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: CIS-E cranks a lot before firing (wikdslo)*

The cold start injector and sensor is what delivers fuel to start the car right away when cold. Without it almost every CIS-E will exhibit the symptoms you describe. You did indicate the cold start injector seems to be working. Just to be sure check it again.


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## wikdslo (Mar 13, 2005)

*Re: CIS-E cranks a lot before firing (wclark)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wclark* »_The cold start injector and sensor is what delivers fuel to start the car right away when cold. Without it almost every CIS-E will exhibit the symptoms you describe. You did indicate the cold start injector seems to be working. Just to be sure check it again.

Yup, just checked it this afternoon, as soon as the car cranks it was spraying into the tube where it goes to. However, not sure if anything in there could possibly be clogged.
So when the car first cranks should it only be spraying out of the cold start injector and not the 4 other injectors?


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## wclark (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: CIS-E cranks a lot before firing (wikdslo)*

Does the mass air flow sensor plate move freely from its rest position and is its rest position set properly? 
If the residual pressure is low enough you may notice the cold start injector sprays before the main injectors because it will open at a lower pressure (3 bar - CSI vs. 5 bar - main injector), but this should not happen for more than a second or 2 or something is amiss. The cold start injector richens the fuel mix beyond what the main injectors can provide at cranking speeds because the air flowing past the MAS plate during startup is small, but it is not THE source of fuel during startup. 
When cold, if you turn the ignition to on, wiat for the pump to stop then turn the ignition off-on-start, does it start any faster? If so the residual pressure isstill bleeding off too much. If not then it is likely the MAS plate/fuel distributor is misadjusted or sticky.


_Modified by wclark at 8:36 AM 7-7-2009_


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## wikdslo (Mar 13, 2005)

*Re: CIS-E cranks a lot before firing (wclark)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wclark* »_Does the mass air flow sensor plate move freely from its rest position and is its rest position set properly? 

When cold, if you turn the ignition to on, wiat for the pump to stop then turn the ignition off-on-start, does it start any faster? If so the residual pressure isstill bleeding off too much. If not then it is likely the MAS plate/fuel distributor is misadjusted or sticky.

_Modified by wclark at 8:36 AM 7-7-2009_

Yup, the plate is set properly and it moves freely. I cleaned up in around the bowl as well, seems to have a bit of up/down play (about 4 or 5 mm) but sits about 2mm lower than the closed position, or whatever the bentley spec shows.
Also tried the on, of on start method, primed the pump several times, but it does the same thing.
I'm not sure where I'm losing pressure. If i crach the inlet to the fuel filter, and fuel doesnt come bursting out, I would assume that that is where I'm losing the pressure in that line, and thus why my injectors don't shoot as soon as I start to crank?


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## wclark (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: CIS-E cranks a lot before firing (wikdslo)*

The play as you called it is normal and is there to permit the plunger to seat and seal off fuel to the injectors when the engine is not running. That resting position is called the zero position. VW specified the KE-Jetronic zero position as 1.9mm below the top edge of the vertical portion of the funnel (measured from the top of the plate nearest the fuel distributor) and Motronic is 2.1mm. The other position is called the basic position. That is the point when lifting the plate, that the arm attached to it contacts the control plunger. That point should occur when the top of the plate is even with the top edge of the vertical part of the funnel. This should be checked when there is residual fuel pressure such as right after the engine has been run. 
The zero position is set by moving a rest spring that is below the plate and the basic position is set using the CO adjust (hint: if your DPR current is correct the basic position part is done and fine tuned already - dont move it as the eyeballing to the top edge is just the coarse positioning). Probst says that a car with too low a zero position will be hard to start. That along with your comment about 4-5mm play makes your zero position suspicious to me.


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## wikdslo (Mar 13, 2005)

*Re: CIS-E cranks a lot before firing (wclark)*

So presuming that my dpr plate has some how gone crazy on me, if i were to take off the boot and lift it up a bit higher, then start to crank, i should be able to see fuel spitting out right away, were that my problem?


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## wclark (Mar 28, 2001)

*Re: CIS-E cranks a lot before firing (wikdslo)*

You mean the air flow sensing plate, right? Yes, but you dont need to crank the engine. Just jumper the fuel pump relay and turn the ignition on (so the DPR is something other than zero). You should pull the injectors from the head and put them in jars to collect fuel so it doesnt accumulate in the engine oil. 
Me - Next I would look at that extra couple mm of play between the zero and basic positions of the air flow sensor plate.


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## TooClutchVW (Apr 9, 2004)

*Re: CIS-E cranks a lot before firing (wclark)*

ill throw this into the mix but how are your grounds??


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## ziddey (Apr 16, 2006)

*Re: CIS-E cranks a lot before firing (TooClutchVW)*

does it start right up if you push the throttle when you crank?


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## charcoal grey (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: CIS-E cranks a lot before firing (wikdslo)*

So this started happening after sitting a while. I read this in another post when I had a similar problem with a 16V swap that sat a while. Cleaned the plunger and fired right up.
--Most likely the Control Plunger is stuck if you are not getting any fuel at the injectors. This condition happens when the fuel distributor is not used for a very long time, such as a year or longer. The residual in gas will cause the Control Plunger to stick in its bore. 
The Control Plunger is machined exactly to its bore, and Control Plungers can not be interchanged with different fuel distributors.
Remove all injector lines and fuel hoses from the fuel distributor. Make a diagram of all connections if you have not previously performed this removal. Next remove the three screws that hold the fuel distributor to the top section of the air flow plastic housing. Carefully lift the fuel distributor and place your hand under it in the event the Control Plunger moves freely. However most likely, it is stuck in in its bore.
I have had success with soaking the entire fuel distributor in solvent (ie lacquer thinner, etc) for several days. Prior to soaking, I spray WD-40 in all of the ports. After soaking, I use compressed air to remove the Control Plunger. Place a rag under the bottom of the fuel distributor and blow air into the top center port (control pressure connection), hopefully causing the Control Plunger to move downward from its bore. Do not use pliers in an attempt to pull the Control Plunger out as pliers can cause marks on the plunger and damage it.
You may have to repeat the soaking process several times, depending on the amount of gas residual in the fuel distributor. 
Some of the fuel distributors have four (4) metric allen caps next to each of the injector line ports. If you remove the caps, you will find small filters under the caps. These filters can be cleaned and re-installed. Beneath the filters are metric allen screws that are "factory-adjusted" for the amount of fuel flow from each injector port. Do not attempt to turn these metric allen screws as you will change the amount of fuel flow. I know this from prior experience!!
Once the Control Plunger is removed, clean it with spray carb cleaner, and spray carb cleaner into all of the ports. Then use compressed air to blow the entire unit dry. The Bentley says to put a light coat of fresh gas on the Control Plunger and reassemble the unit.


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## khartman2394 (May 20, 2009)

*Re: CIS-E cranks a lot before firing (charcoal grey)*

The filters you talk about in the dizzy, do you think they may be a cause for my 85 Cabby not reving when the car is first started up (4-5 mins)







Once it is warmed up real good, there is no problem reving but when first sarted and cold engine it chokes out. Think cleaning them will help or do you have another idea? It will start fine and idle smoothly but no reving allowed. Thanks.


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## charcoal grey (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: CIS-E cranks a lot before firing (khartman2394)*

I would think that would be more likely of a coolant temp sensor, maybe stuck so it reads that the car is at operating temp all the time, and causing it to run lean when it is cold. I would start there.


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## khartman2394 (May 20, 2009)

*Re: CIS-E cranks a lot before firing (charcoal grey)*

That seems to make sense too. My temp gauge reads good but then again, the car sat for a long time and there could be all kinds of funky things going on with it. I will replace the sender and see if that helps. This thing really has me baffled. Thaks for your input.


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## gbisus13 (Aug 16, 2005)

*Re: CIS-E cranks a lot before firing (khartman2394)*

Just curious, if the cam's were out of position, could this make a similar dificult to start situation? I've gone thru the entire fuel system replaced filters cleaned dizzies and injectors, the fuel flows just fine, but it takes it a bit to start (ie 3 extended cranking sessions with multiple fuel pump primes) after sitting for awhile (overnight). A cue that I think the cams are off is I have to turn the spark distributor all the way clockwise to make the car run at all, and under about 1500 rpm, the car has serious bogging issues. However at high rpms, picks up and goes very nicely.
In re: to post above, my temp gauge almost never comes out of freakin' cold. Just a few times doing alot of downtown stop and go it came up to a normal middle position.
The PO replaced the head after warping it due to prodigious use of radiator stop leak (coolant system now runs clean, that took awhile) and also attempted to rewire most of the car (I've since gotten most of the harness in a more or less OEM arrangment for all the things that go to the engine. Lights etc on the other hand are still totally bonkers







)
Car is a 86 16V scirocco btw.


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## khartman2394 (May 20, 2009)

*Re: CIS-E cranks a lot before firing (gbisus13)*

Does your car have a cold start valve? That is basically a 5th injector that sprays fuel into the plenum to aid cold starting. It could be going bad since you are having to crank multiple times. On the distributor, have you checked the timing? On my Cabby ther are 3 gears, one on the crank, one on the cam, and one that controls the distributor. If yours is the same the distrib one may be off a tooth or two. If you can, check to see that the cam and crank marks are alligned with top dead center and then check to see where your distributor rotor is pointing. It may be that one or more of the gears have slipped a bit. In my case, I have to run mine at about 12-13 degrees BTC, which is a loit counterclockwise. Good luck with it.


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## gbisus13 (Aug 16, 2005)

*Re: CIS-E cranks a lot before firing (khartman2394)*

CSV works, I've swapped in 2 diff ones from other cars and all have sprayed fuel.
I have my spark distributor turned all the ways clockwise, the only way the car runs at all basically. 
I guess I need to pull the valve cover and check all the timing. Hopefully this weekend.







So you're saying there are 3 gears? one for each cam and a third one going to where the distributor slots in? I assumed the groove that the distributor slots into for it's rotation was just cut in the end of the camshaft. I guess it will be clear enough when I pull the cover what needs adjusting.
Thanks!


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## khartman2394 (May 20, 2009)

*Re: CIS-E cranks a lot before firing (gbisus13)*

I don't have double cams, mine is single, so I am not sure if you will have a gear that turns the distributor or not. My gears are on the cam, crankshaft, and the one for the distributor. Hopefully when you get into it you will see what is up. Good luck.


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## prom king (Aug 14, 2004)

I'm having the same problem. After it cranks about 10 times fires right up, and drives great. It's just a hard start, both hot and cold.


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