# LS2/Yukon coil conversion



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

*Update May, 9th,2018. This thread contains a lot of Images that were temporarily lost when Photobucket changed their Third party Hosting process. These can be viewed by installing a Hot Fix for Google Chrome and Mozilla FireFox. Search add-ons or extension for " Photobucket Link Hot Fix ". Install add-on and all of the old hosted pictures will appear!!! *

Thought I'd post my parts list and some links to info for LS2/Yukon coil conversions. This first page will be updated as we find new info. 


I will do a write up of of this, but it will take some time. Slowly gathering parts and money is tight. Plus it's freakin' cold outside and I have one of those Canopy garages in the driveway. 

Here's my parts list so far: 

1: 4 New OEM AC Delco LS2 (D514 ) coils from E-Bay. $16.98 x 4 = $67.92 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/280774335148?item=280774335148&viewitem=&vxp=mtr 

Edit: You can get the LS2 " Truck " coils ( D585 ) with heat-sink for about $25 to $30 on E-Bay or Amazon.com . These are aftermarket brands, but if you search you can find some good deals. Nothing wrong with used coils either. Used = OEM AC Delco and they last forever. *The D585 Truck coils with the heat-sink are the most powerful of the LS2 series coils ( 120 mj's )*. The D514's ( same as D581's ) are a close second ( approx 100 mj's ). 

2: 4 LS2 coil wiring connectors. ( Available up to 24" in length at no extra charge ) $9.00 x 4 =$36.00 . Wrecking yard $10. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LS2-COIL-CO...Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item3a6866a0ec 


3: Updated Mar,4,2012: 

Spark Plug cables can be the biggest challenge, but Vortex members have the answers. Lots of choices now.  

For AEB : 

NGK Spark Plug leads from a 2005 Chevy Optra $41.95 NGK #56006 ( Thanks to A2TDI for this tip :beer: ). 

Edit: These fit AEB valve covers only. AEB's require a shorter spark plug tube because of the deep square well for the coil. Only downside to NGK's is that they are only 7mm....but they are GOOD 7mm wires. And they smell nice :laugh: 

Link to pics of NGK leads on my AEB: 

https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...t-and-Info&p=75783583&viewfull=1#post75783583 


For AWW, AWP etc ( all non-AEB ): 

Note for none AEB valve covers, you can order the AAN plug leads from 034 Motorsport. Specify them unterminated and with LS2 coil boots. approx $135 ( LS2 coil boots may be slight extra cost ) Thanks to Aaron for this tip :beer: Magnecore, Kingsborne and Aurora can also custom make these leads. 

http://www.034motorsport.com/ignition-solutions-plug-wire-set-audi-i5-dis-p-18156.html 

Here is a picture AAN leads on an AWP motor ( Aaron's car ) as supplied from 034 Motorsport: 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6802283066/ 

*Update Mar, 4,2012: 

Spartiati has found that Honda H22-VTEC plug leads fit AWP and AWW motors perfectly. The ability to use Honda leads opens up a huge number of choices for plug leads.  

The H22-VTEC motors where plentiful on Honda Preludes and CRX's of the mid 1990's. NGK makes them in 7mm, and MSD in 8mm as does Taylor, Magnecore and Aurora.. These came on many Honda models in the mid 1990-s including Preludes and CRX's. ( Thanks to Spartiati for this tip :beer: ) 

My custom made Aurora leads with Honda H22 plug well boots and LS2 coil ends: 










NGK part number HE65 ( 8019 ) in 7mm for AWP, AWW motors: 

http://www.ebay.com/ctg/NGK-8019-Spark-Plug-Wire-Set-/76013214 










Note: You will have to cut the coil ends off and crimp on LS2 coil terminals ( or use the " Ghetto " mod as mentioned later in thread ) 

Link to pictures of custom Aurora leads made for AGN valve cover. These are a perfect fit. Order 1995 Honda Prelude plug leads ( DOHC V-tec H22 engine ). Specify length of each plug lead and terminated on coil end with LS2 boots. Or you can specify the leads unterminated and then you cut to length and terminate yourself. 

https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...t-and-Info&p=77073325&viewfull=1#post77073325 

Aurora custom made 8.5mm Ignition wires. Approx $95 cdn: 

http://www.Auror****ctronics.com/Default.htm 

Kingsborne custom made 8mm Ignition wires. Approx $45 us: 

http://www.kingsborne.com/ * 



*Update April, 28,2014. 

Taylor Pro Wires part #79210 apparently fit perfect for Coils mounted on top of Valve Cover. Correct LS2 coil ends and correct boots to seal plug wells. Short length ( 6" ) , but ideal for VC mounting. Wires are from 2003 to 2005 Dodge 5.7L Hemi. Thanks to [email protected] Soundworks for this tip :thumbup:* 














Update Mar,4,2012: 

The LS2 coils have a special small diameter terminal ( Smaller than a spark plug terminal ). 

MSD makes them. So does Kingsborne and other suppliers ( Standard Blue Streak etc ). 
LT1 Optispark and LSx coil connectors are the same size. 

LT1 straight coil terminal and boot = PN 3302 ( 2 per card ) 

LT1 90 degree terminal and boot = PN 3303 ( 2 per card ) 

LSx 45 degree terminal and boot = PN 3304 (2 per card ) 

Link to Kingsborne coil terminals and boots: 

90 degree style. Coil boot. Package of 10 = $15.00 : 

http://www.kingsbornewires.com/product-p/ab55be.htm 

45 degree style. Coil Boot. Package of 10 = $16.00 : 

http://www.kingsbornewires.com/product-p/12163659.htm 


4: 10 ft Techflex 1/8" wire sleeving from 034 Motorsport. $5.80 

http://www.034motorsport.com/wiring-solutions-tape-and-loom-material-techflex-18-section-p-210.html 


5: 6 ft Heat resistant fiberglass wire sheathing, 1/4" diameter. $3.60 

http://www.034motorsport.com/wiring...iberglass-sheathing-heat-resistant-p-272.html 


6: 6 ft Heat resistant fiberglass wire sheathing,1/2" diameter. $11.40 

http://www.034motorsport.com/wiring...aterial-fiberglass-sheathing-12-id-p-273.html 


7: Deutsch terminal blocks. Edit: Going to use one 6 pin terminal blocks. Local supplier. $15.00 

9: 12 v Relay and Circuit breaker . Wire direct to battery with a circuit breaker to eliminate high current load from ECU 12v feed wire. Local Supplier. $20.00 


Edit: Total = $201.67 ( Plus shipping and Tax ). 

So far this is looking pretty reasonable. Have to fabricate a bracket to hold the coils...but that should not cost more than $10. 



*LS2 Pin out's and wiring diagrams:* 










D = 12 V power = The same as 1.8t coil pack No.1 (power from the firewall connectors) 

C = Trigger Sequencer Signal. the 1 to 5 V signal from the ECU = the appropriate color code from the ECU equivalent to the 1.8t coil pack pin 3. 

B = Trigger ground back to ECU, in this case Pin 2 on ECU connector 1, the one with a brown wire with a white stripe, equivalent to the 1.8t coil pack pin 2. 

A = Common ground for the coils, equivalent to pin 4 in the 1.8t coil pack diagram. ( Ground to Valve Cover ). 

*1.8T Coil pin-outs picture:* 








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*Further miscellaneous info:* 


EFI Express Billet Coil Bracket. ( Made for AAN 5 cyl, but seeing if Marc will make one for 4 cylinders. ): 

http://www.efiexpress.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=15&products_id=54 

Source of Aluminium spacers used for making standoffs for brackets and coil spacers.. 

http://www.aluminumspacers.com/ 

Source for all sorts of electrical wiring, braided sleeving, extreme temp wire coverings and connecters: 

http://www.wirecare.com/index.asp? 

* Update: Sept,16,2012. Added Dwell tables from thread* 

Stock ME7 ECU coil dwell. Thanks to Spartiati, ElRay and ejg385. 










LS2 ( D585 ) coil Dwell 

 
StockD585CoilDwell by BlackBird SR71, on Flickr 

*Update April 28,2014. 

Added optimized Dwell Tables ( Aggressive Dwell ) provided by Spartiati ( Steve ) :thumbup: * 
These figures have been run successfully on D585 coils for the past two years, however this is a fairly aggressive Dwell Map on a high boost Hybrid Turbo engine. Always run the minimum Dwell necessary. Note: Read the discussion on maximum coil dwell beginning at Post #497 *Be sure to adjust both RPM x Load and RPM x Voltage tables:* 

Click on link below to view direct link to Dwell Table picture that can be enlarged ( Ctrl & + ): 

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k420/spartiati86/LS2CoilDwellTables_zpscefdeefe.jpg


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Cool conversion. 
I put it in the FAQ


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## cjb88 (Aug 21, 2010)

What is the advantage of this setup vs OE coils or MKVI coils?


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

didn't I mention this yesterday in the 2.0T thread


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

cjb88 said:


> What is the advantage of this setup vs OE coils or MKVI coils?


 No idea...but cool conversion still


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

LS Coils can put a huge gap. They are MUCH more powerful


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)




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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

I want to see pics of this installed!!!


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

we used to use these on 4G63's with DSMlink to make a COP system that worked for anything over 30psi. The change over showed up to a 20whp gain (on the 4G63T) at 35psi on a 3065 snail.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

They also need monster dwell. If you dont have the means to adjust that, stock coils are better.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

need_a_VR6 said:


> They also need monster dwell. If you dont have the means to adjust that, stock coils are better.


 And for people like me that didn't know what dwell time is... 

The dwell time is the amount of time the ignition coil primary has current running through it. So in a points ignition system, it is the amount of time the points are closed. There is only current sent to the spark plug when the points open. So if the dwell time is too short, the current in the primary coils of the ignition coil has not been able to build up far enough so there is not enough magnetic energy stored in the coil to give a good spark.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> They also need monster dwell. If you dont have the means to adjust that, stock coils are better.


 Not according to the rather extensive testing done in the video and in the real world. 

The sweet spot for LS2 coils is 5ms...but they will work fine all the way down to 2.5ms. All tested in the video link and confirmed on other forums. Maximum dwell tested was 10ms, but there were no appreciable gains to be had over 5ms. ( Comparison of 10ms to 5ms dwell time at 10:40 in the video ) 

At 5ms, the LS2/Yukon coils were happily jumping a *.130"* gap ( that is no misprint ) at high RPM. 

3ms is the default dwell on most VAG ECU's. At 3ms dwell the LS2 coils are still far, far more powerful than any VW/Audi COP coil. 

AAN guys ( UR Quattro ) have been using these for years with small dwells. So have DSM, Honda etc.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

From my vague memory the coil posted is the early LS2 coil (non heatsink) and acts like an LS1 coil. Much lower power, and needs 6ms dwell and has a similar, if not lower, output at 3ms dwell compared to stock coils. 

The LS2 truck coil (noticeable by the large heatsink on the backside) is the one you're referring to and needs 5ms total dwell for full spark output. 

[edit, I remember when I got that vid over email. Long time ago, see how vague my memory really is. In any case the heatsink coil is the one to go with, AND I wouldn't bother unless you can change dwell to the proper values]


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> From my vague memory the coil posted is the early LS2 coil (non heatsink) and acts like an LS1 coil. Much lower power, and needs 6ms dwell and has a similar, if not lower, output at 3ms dwell compared to stock coils.
> 
> The LS2 truck coil (noticeable by the large heatsink on the backside) is the one you're referring to and needs 5ms total dwell for full spark output.
> 
> [edit, I remember when I got that vid over email. Long time ago, see how vague my memory really is. In any case the heatsink coil is the one to go with, AND I wouldn't bother unless you can change dwell to the proper values]


 Well I'm going to be e-mailing the author of the LSx coil test video, and ask him what the output is at 3ms, in both output voltage and millijoules. 3ms is typical of early VW/Audi pre-recall ECU's. ( The ones that VW reduced the coil dwell on to make the coils last longer ) 

Actually he tests the coils at the lower level of 3ms in the video, and the Yukon coil is still producing a *substantial spark at .130" gap* if you recall. Later on in the video he switches to 5ms for the real fireworks display. If you can read the oscilloscope value you can see the output voltage at 3ms. The LS2 coil tests very similar to the Yukon coil...not to the LS1 coil. The LS2 coil has much higher output than the LS1 coil. ( Clearly stated at 1:56 into the video ) And the Yukon coils require more dwell and amperage than the LS2 coils...not the other way around. 

Aftermarket ECU vendors such as Eurodyne and Unitronics should easily be able to change dwell. And if you are using stand alone it's a no brainer. 

And I have to disagree that dwell needs to be changes on anything but the highest output cars. The UR Quattro ( AAN 5 cylinder ) group have terribly weak factory coils, even worse than ours. For a while they were experimenting with 1.8T coils, but the consensus now is to just make the switch to LS2 coils. Note that the same factory ECU was driving both the AAN coils ( weaker than 1.8T coils ) , 1.8T coils and LS2 coils. So no dwell issues at all, and the AAN ECU's do NOT have a big dwell. 

The UR Quattro forums have been doing a LOT more testing with these coils than the 1.8T. It is their research that convinced me to go down this path. Both LS2 and Yukon coils have been tried. I have to double check...but I believe that the Yukon coils were causing some issues with the ECU's and LS2's are now the recommended way to go. 

The LS2/Yukon coils have been proven in the field to work at dwell points between 2.5 to 3ms with a *very* substantial spark. 5ms is better...but not 100% necessary. 

Dwell times up to 10ms are useable, with output increasing up to 9ms...but not in a linear fashion. Some ultra high boost ( 40 psi ) drag engines have tried 10ms...but at the expense of shortened coil life. 

I'll post up a DIY ( with results ) after I get all the parts and the weather warms up a bit. I'll also get back with further info from the Video author ( check his links...he has some interesting MAF testing ) and from the AAN forums. 

I am also waiting to hear back from the Maestro Forums to see if dwell can be adjusted through Maestro or if it can be flashed.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

If you haven't watched the Coil testing video...watch it in it's entire lenght. 

Some key points in the video: 

1: At 7:30 min. LS2 coil stated to be 30% more powerful than LS1. 

2: At 7:56 min. LS2 coil at .030" gap. 

3: At 9:14. LS2 coil .030" gap, 3ms dwell, low rpm. 

4: At 10:24. LS2 coil .030" gap, 5ms dwell, low rpm. 

5: At 10:40. LS2 coil at .030" gap, 10ms dwell, low rpm. No appreciable spark output gain over 5ms dwell. ( Note that may change at larger gaps, which simulate higher combustion pressures. ) 

6: At 16:24. Yukon coil at .130" gap, 5ms dwell, high rpm. 

7: At 17:15. LS2 coil at .130" gap, 5ms, high rpm. You can see that the LS2 coil is no slouch compared to the Yukon coil. 


_Note that the author makes a couple of mental hiccups when testing the LS2 and Yukon coils. He gets the names mixed up. Halfway through he calls the LS2 coil an LS1 coil, and the Yukon coil an LS2 coil :screwy: Only does it the one time...but it can be confusing. Remember that he stated that he blew up the LS1 coil ( 6:44 in video ) ...it was never shown being tested._


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I can only get the vid to play to the 11min mark on my phone and then it freezes. I've purged it from my archives at some point, so I'll have to hop back online. 

In the docs that Bruce produced from these tests he lists dwell for both the LS2 versions (truck and early) at 5ms running dwell and the LS1 at 6ms. Inconsistent with some of your snaps from the video. 

It looked like (again on the phone so I can't see real big) that at 3ms the LS2 coil tested was about 2/3 the peak voltage and about 1/2 the duration, and from a spark energy perspective, will be quite lower, as power is proportional to the area under that curve. 

I don't disagree that it might "be plenty" just pointing out that there will be tradeoffs if you can't adjust the dwell. 

The ECU issues were probably caused by some of the noise supplied back on the trigger lines, or they weren't grounded properly. Usually it's best to put some extra caps in when running these coils. 

In any case, no criticism. It's an interesting project and I just wanted you and others to be aware of the differences in these coils vs stock. 

FWIW I have a set of LS2/Truck coils on my Mk3 if I ever get it running again  

PS: if you do talk to Bruce tell him Paul from KPTuned says HI!


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

For anybody interested in doing this, I can do the necessary crimps/splices for you so you're not soldering and hacking together a bunch of flying leads. :beer:


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I can only get the vid to play to the 11min mark on my phone and then it freezes. I've purged it from my archives at some point, so I'll have to hop back online.
> 
> In the docs that Bruce produced from these tests he lists dwell for both the LS2 versions (truck and early) at 5ms running dwell and the LS1 at 6ms. Inconsistent with some of your snaps from the video.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the interest and incite :beer: I would have loved to see Bruce's documentation on this test. 

One question that I have just come across. I'm wondering if the AEB ECU adjusts dwell and primary coil voltage dynamically. My plan was to provide a direct 12v feed through a relay to isolate the ECU. 

However, after reading some of the coil dwell and coil voltage tables on VEMS forums I'm wondering if that is such a good idea. VEMS ( I think it was VEMS...it was late at night ) changes the dwell and coil voltage according to RPM. It's used as a coil cooling strategy. 

I don't know if the AEB ECU uses dynamic voltage control. May be a mute point as I've also read that the LSX coils can do a certain amount of self regulation. 

Bottom line. Will a straight 12v ( from a relay ) to the power terminal of the coil work? Might have to go to the UR Quattro forums to find that info... :banghead:


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Chickenman35 said:


> Thanks for the interest and incite :beer: I would have loved to see Bruce's documentation on this test.
> 
> One question that I have just come across. I'm wondering if the AEB ECU adjusts dwell and primary coil voltage dynamically. My plan was to provide a direct 12v feed through a relay to isolate the ECU.
> 
> ...


 I'm 99.999999999% positive our coils are connected to a flat 12V source.. nothing modified via the ECU. I wouldn't want to give the ECU the chance to mess with coil voltage anyways.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> I'm 99.999999999% positive our coils are connected to a flat 12V source.. nothing modified via the ECU. I wouldn't want to give the ECU the chance to mess with coil voltage anyways.


 Yeah...I might be over thinking this. In Bruce's video he was using a straight 12v feed to the coils. 

Was concerned whether or not the LSx coils " needed " dynamic voltage regulation from the ECU...but I think not.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Generally the dwell will be voltage and rpm/accel compensated. 

I have to find the link to Bruce's docs, its buried in some obscure ms testing stuff.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

http://www.megamanual.com/seq/coils.htm

Yeah that one took a bit to find!


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Chickenman35 said:


> Yeah...I might be over thinking this. In Bruce's video he was using a straight 12v feed to the coils.
> 
> Was concerned whether or not the LSx coils " needed " dynamic voltage regulation from the ECU...but I think not.


 Just checked the Bentley.. ignition coil power is driven by J271 - Motronic ECM power supply relay, which is ground triggered by the ECU and gets power from S237, fuse #37, in the fuse panel. So it's not constant, it's switched. 

My feeling is that even constant 12V would be OK since if the ECU isn't triggered the transistor to conduct.... then no current should be able to flow regardless. It wouldn't just be sitting there charging the coils or something.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

in for a DIY! 

someone should make the wiring harness adapters so they just plug in to the OEM harness and then the LS2 coil. 

Marc could do this I am sure.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

ejg3855 said:


> in for a DIY!
> 
> someone should make the wiring harness adapters so they just plug in to the OEM harness and then the LS2 coil.
> 
> Marc could do this I am sure.


 4 wire 1.8T coils would be a cinch to make a Plug and Play. 

Unfortunately I have an AEB...so I've got some cuttin' and splicin' to do. 

Going to contact Bruce Bowling ( made the LSx coil test video ) with a few technical inquiries. Stay tuned!! opcorn:


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## Enclavet (Jan 13, 2005)

Did this conversion on my 2001 Audi A4 with a standalone. I ran it with stock (3ms) dwell and up to 5ms dwell and didnt notice any difference. I was running Hitatchi coils before and would notice slight bumps in idle. Now all I hear is smooth butter at idle. Could be a placebo effect. 

If you have any questions regarding the wiring etc.. let me know. You should combine this mod with eliminating your ICM also. 

Will post some pics when I get a chance.


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Feel free to shoot me a PM if anybody decides to do this and wants some adapter harness action. I'd wait until Chickenman does his testing, though, before this ends up like the 2.0T coilpack spacer situation with everyone wanting to make stuff before any actual/rigorous testing is done.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

If you want to make a harness up, I can just snag some plug wires and make a quick bracket. I have both ls2 and the truck coils in spades. 

I can post my before and after misfire count.


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

need_a_VR6 said:


> If you want to make a harness up, I can just snag some plug wires and make a quick bracket. I have both ls2 and the truck coils in spades.
> 
> I can post my before and after misfire count.


  

Give me tomorrow to figure out the part numbers, and I'll get something going. I'm assuming you have the normal 4-pin 1.8T coils?


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

I am all for adapters from the MK4 COP harness to the LS2 packs.


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

So odd... the GT 150 Female Sealed connectors only have terminals that go up to 1mm^2 conductors... and some restricted ones that go up to 1.5mm^2, whereas JPT terminals can do like 2.5mm^2. Sucks if you're trying to build a beefy ass harness or something! 

With that said... connectors/terminals/seals for the LS2 coils located.  Just have to find the male connectors to make to the engine side of the 1.8T harness.... hmph!


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Enclavet said:


> Did this conversion on my 2001 Audi A4 with a standalone. I ran it with stock (3ms) dwell and up to 5ms dwell and didn't notice any difference. I was running Hitachi coils before and would notice slight bumps in idle. Now all I hear is smooth butter at idle. Could be a placebo effect.
> 
> If you have any questions regarding the wiring etc.. let me know. You should combine this mod with eliminating your ICM also.
> 
> Will post some pics when I get a chance.


 Would love to see some pictures :beer: 

Some questions on wiring: 

1: Does the trigger ground have to go back to the ECU or can it just go to a ground on engine like the main grounds? Looks like it can just go to a ground on the engine. 

2: Doesn't look like a extra 12v relay is required as 12v to coils goe through a separate relay already. Can you confirm this? 

3: What plug gaps were you able to run before and after the conversion? (3ms dwell ) At what boost levels? 

ICM delete is a given as LSx coils have built in ignition driver circuitry. Would be so much easier if I had 4 wire VW coils as on non-AEB's.


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Chickenman35 said:


> Would love to see some pictures :beer:
> 
> Some questions on wiring:
> 
> ...


 Actually, it's easier / cheaper given that you have the ICM... it's one connector vs four separate ones. If you take a picture of your ICM, I can help you get the necessary connectors to make this a simpler wiring job. :thumbup:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Yeah I have the 4pin coils. Finding a male end for those might prove interesting. I thought they were the same as O2 connectors but on second thought I think those have an offset pin in them.


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Yeah I have the 4pin coils. Finding a male end for those might prove interesting. I thought they were the same as O2 connectors but on second thought I think those have an offset pin in them.


 I've already found the connectors but finding them cheaper is the key. :laugh:


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## abacorrado (Apr 5, 2005)

This is why I love the tex, u guys r the best


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Gonna pull the trigger tomorrow on all the pieces tomorrow. Even just for testing purposes, this is a pretty low cost for me to eat.... which means it should be cheaper for anyone that wants to do it themselves... assuming test results show that they are a worthwhile upgrade.  

need_a_VR6, mind PMing me your address? :beer:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Sent.


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

This is excellent, plug-and-play Chevy coils would be amazing, ignition debate officially ended :laugh:


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

One issue, that .130 gap is under atmospheric conditions. The spark in reality is happening under a compressed charge, usually at least 1bar over atmospheric, and that is just the intake charge before it is compressed via piston. 

Not saying they are worse, in fact I'm sure they beat the poop out of any Bosch coil, since Bosch can't seem to make any sensors or ignition coils that really hold up. 

But the real test, is the gap jump under operating conditions.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

gdoggmoney said:


> One issue, that .130 gap is under atmospheric conditions. The spark in reality is happening under a compressed charge, usually at least 1bar over atmospheric, and that is just the intake charge before it is compressed via piston.
> 
> Not saying they are worse, in fact I'm sure they beat the poop out of any Bosch coil, since Bosch can't seem to make any sensors or ignition coils that really hold up.
> 
> But the real test, is the gap jump under operating conditions.


 So you're saying we need a heated pressure chamber then, right?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

And one full of fuel. 

Who wants to start kicking me money to dyno test with a bunch of different gaps with both style coils... :wave:


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

need_a_VR6 said:


> And one full of fuel.
> 
> Who wants to start kicking me money to dyno test with a bunch of different gaps with both style coils... :wave:


 How much money do you need and if you do have public funding will you be open sourcing all developments for the good of the community?


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

groggory said:


> How much money do you need and if you do have public funding will you be open sourcing all developments for the good of the community?


 i will pitch in a few.


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

I'll throw in a 10 spot with the addition of the adapters I'm building. So long as you get full logs for every run and pictures of the dyno runs and post them up in their entirety, I'll be happy. Ideally multiple runs for each coil type so things can adapt.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

I'm in for 10


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Also, all the parts have been ordered. I actually have enough to make two sets of 4-pin-to-LS2 coil adapters. If someone else is serious about this, Chickenman, whoever... I'll sell you the 2nd kit at parts cost all fully assembled and covered and what not... since Paul is getting the other kit. 

:beer:


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

I've had to deal with a difficult family issue the last couple of days, but I will be contacting Bruce Bowling, the gentleman who made the original video. 

In case you are not familiar with Mr. Bowling, he is a n electrical engineer and is one of the the developers of the DIY Megasquirt EFI system. ( Al Grippo is the other developer ). So the guy knows his stuff. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MegaSquirt 

http://www.megamanual.com/index.html 

I will be asking him some specific questions on dwell figures, but I can tell you that things already look encouraging on that front. 3ms dwell is looking good theoretically, from the research that I've done over the last few days. I'll post back some info on that in the morning. 

I am also going to see if he can do a direct test of the LS2 &Yukon coils vs various VAG coils: 

1: New 1.8T 4 wire latest revision coils. 

2: New FSI 2.0 coils. 

3: New 3 wire AEB coils with ICM 

4: Used 4 wire 1.8T coils and used 3 wire AEB coils 

If we can get some members to loan these parts out to Bruce ( if he agrees to do the testing ), then we can get some hard factual data. 

I will be e-mailing Bruce tomorrow morning.


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> And one full of fuel.
> 
> Who wants to start kicking me money to dyno test with a bunch of different gaps with both style coils... :wave:


 Dyno testing may not prove a thing. It has been stated over and over again that you can make big power with the stock coils...on a Drag Racing car or on a Dyno. In fact it is often repeated ( ad nauseam ) on this Forum, that Mr. XYZ made 700 hp on his drag engine... so the stock coils must be fine. People who are thinking that way are missing the point. 

The point being is that we want to be able to run a hotter spark, with a bigger gap AND with *increased reliability*. You always want the biggest spark kernel that you can get..particularly on High Compression or Forced Induction motors. 

You can make big power, on a NEW set of coils on a Drag Car or on a Dyno... however,those coils are only running for a few seconds at a time, under peak loads. 

Put them in a BT Road Racing car or a BT daily and the stock coils will prematurely fail, particularly if you try and run larger gaps with them. They will eventually fry from internal heat. Most often sooner than later... :banghead: 

The beauty of the LS2 and Yukon coils is that they are *overbuilt*. So you can run big boost and larger gaps without having to carry a trunk load full of spare coils. And at 3ms dwell ...they are " underdriven ", so they run even cooler . If the LS2 and Yukon coils can make the voltage and current numbers at 3ms that we are hoping they can...this is looking really good. And if you have an ECU or standalone that you can adjust to 5ms dwell...then this is a no brainer.


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

gdoggmoney said:


> One issue, that .130 gap is under atmospheric conditions. The spark in reality is happening under a compressed charge, usually at least 1bar over atmospheric, and that is just the intake charge before it is compressed via piston.
> 
> Not saying they are worse, in fact I'm sure they beat the poop out of any Bosch coil, since Bosch can't seem to make any sensors or ignition coils that really hold up.
> 
> But the real test, is the gap jump under operating conditions.


 That is very true..but it very hard to make the necessary pressure chambers to test under cylinder pressures. Nor is it necessary. A simple comparison between coils at atmospheric pressure is still empirical data. 

EG: Coil LSx fires a .130 gap at 7,000 rpm with no problem. Coil VW can only fire a .060 gap at 7,000 rpm. Which one is better? 

The actual figures obtained at atmospheric vs pressurized really doesn't matter. They are both going to decrease proportionally with pressure. 

What you want to do is test coil against coil, with the same dwell and same input voltages. Hook them up to Bruce torture rig ( complete with oscilloscopes ) and let the sparks fly. That is what I intend to talk to Bruce Bowling about. So stay tuned... opcorn:


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Here is a link to a very interesting article on LSx coils and dwell settings. If you scroll down to the bottom of the page, you will find a calculator to find the voltage required to initialize a spark. Note that you can change, spark gap, static compression ratios, boost pressures and air temperature. 

http://www.megamanual.com/seq/coils.htm#ls2 

Note that as air temp goes up, voltage required goes down ( naturally because air is less dense ) 

Lets plug in some numbers for interest. 

1: .028" gap at 15psi boost ( 204.7 kpa ), 9.5 to 1 compression and lets say 85c AIT = 23,928 v. 

Typical of a chipped APR or GIAC stage 1 with stock intercooler. Not sure about AIT. 

2: .025" gap at 20 psi boost ( 239.2 kpa ), 9.5 comp, and 95c AIT ( good intercooler ) = 25,122 v 

3: .022 gap at 25 psi boost ( 271.6 kpa ), 9.5 comp, and 95c AIT ( good intercooler & Meth?? ) = 26,236 v


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Here's some more pertinent information on dwell from Megasquirt ( no it's not a Porno site :laugh: ): 

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/configure.htm#dwell


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Chickenman35 said:


> That is very true..but it very hard to make the necessary pressure chambers to test under cylinder pressures. Nor is it necessary. A simple comparison between coils at atmospheric pressure is still empirical data.
> 
> EG: Coil LSx fires a .130 gap at 7,000 rpm with no problem. Coil VW can only fire a .060 gap at 7,000 rpm. Which one is better?
> 
> ...


 Sure, but how do you account for coil heatsoak in a BT 1.8T bay, and it's impact on performance along with the pressures? You can't. 


So really, the best bet is to "do it live". I'm familiar with Bruce, he's a very sharp guy. But that does not change the test environment any, or facts. I'm sure if you asked him he'd tell you as well with his aura of authority that there really is no test like "do it live". 

I'm not arguing which is better, I honestly don't care because I make nothing of anything here I am just another guy with a few cars that wants reliability, and smooth but massive amounts of power. 

For a daily car, and something I want reliable enough/cheap/not to mess with I'll stick MKV/MKVI coils in it and plug away. 

I'm probably going to do the same for my Audi until it becomes an issue because I'm short on time and a tad lazy. 

It's fairly well known that Bosch coils suck, their sensors suck and their ignition amplifiers are garbage as well. Even the ones built into the coil on plug units.


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

gdoggmoney said:


> Sure, but how do you account for coil heatsoak in a BT 1.8T bay, and it's impact on performance along with the pressures? You can't.
> 
> 
> So really, the best bet is to "do it live". I'm familiar with Bruce, he's a very sharp guy. But that does not change the test environment any, or facts. I'm sure if you asked him he'd tell you as well with his aura of authority that there really is no test like "do it live".
> ...


 Well the idea is that, given successful testing, LS2 coils and the needed wiring/bracket would be not all much more expensive to switch to.  A reliable, overbuilt and *affordable* ignition solution for all the 1.8T guys.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Well the idea is that, given successful testing, LS2 coils and the needed wiring/bracket would be not all much more expensive to switch to.  A reliable, overbuilt and *affordable* ignition solution for all the 1.8T guys.


 Did the price drop massively? I think last time I checked they were like 60$ a coil or 70$ a coil for the heatsink truck coils.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

gdoggmoney said:


> Did the price drop massively? I think last time I checked they were like 60$ a coil or 70$ a coil for the heatsink truck coils.


 What about this from the first post? 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/280774335148?item=280774335148&viewitem=&vxp=mtr 

~$17/coil on ebay


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

groggory said:


> What about this from the first post?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/280774335148?item=280774335148&viewitem=&vxp=mtr
> 
> ~$17/coil on ebay


 I'm not sure if there are "knock off" lesser-quality versions of the LS2 coils but I found D585 (truck coil) replacements for $23/piece at Amazon. 

$92 for new D585 coils vs $62 for new 2.0T coils... so $30 more plus adapters + bracket. I mean, it's an upgrade. Upgrades usualllly cost more... but with the intention that it's better and will last longer. That is precisely the point of investigating these LS2 coils that are overbuilt and heatsinked and provide a stronger spark... better spark but better cooling so ideally longer life. 

It's hard to say how much a conversion would cost in its entirety but those are secondary details compared to whether or not that coils provide a substancially better spark... which they most likely do.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

groggory said:


> What about this from the first post?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/280774335148?item=280774335148&viewitem=&vxp=mtr
> 
> ~$17/coil on ebay


 Not a heatsinked truck coil. The heatsinked truck coils are much more. 


Wow looks like all of these came down in price since I looked. I still dislike plug wires, but know COP packaging has limits.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Here is my dyno angle:

Both coils
Multiple gaps (20,30,40,50+)

Log misfires
Check power

Compare

I am sure that will show some interesting limits, of both types, in an as close to real application test as possible.


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

Converted almost 2 yrs ago. I'll do the same for any other BT project I may do in the future. 

*note*: running on AWP ECU 



elRey said:


> Just converted to LS2 truck ignition coils to address top-end misfires.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

I know first how long these can last in a stock application, friend of mine had them on his 5.3 for over 200k miles.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

elRey said:


> Converted almost 2 yrs ago. I'll do the same for any other BT project I may do in the future.
> 
> *note*: running on AWP ECU


 Yes.. I remember you thinking about doing that. Yikes...has it been two years? Time flies.... 

So you've got some time on them in the real world. What improvements, other than reliability, have you found. IE: Smoother running, ability to run larger gaps etc? 

Thanks for the note about the AWP ECU. There's one of our our answers folks. Looks like these coils work fine on the factory ECU's. 

Edit: Note from the appearance of the coil mounting brackets I can tell that these are the D585 Yukon coils with the heatsink :thumbup:


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Here is my dyno angle:
> 
> Both coils
> Multiple gaps (20,30,40,50+)
> ...


 Be aware that logging misfires may not show anything.....even when the plugs are actually misfiring. 

The misfire counter is *disabled at WOT* and it takes a BIG misfire to even trigger it at cruise speeds. It is not that sensitive a device, as it is triggered by variations in crankshaft speed. It also takes a given number of misfires over a certain time period to trigger the code. It is also reset after a finite period of time. It is really a gross failure device ( such as a dead plug or injector ) used to protect the Catalytic Convertor from damage. 

Other than that, the tests should be good. Keep a close eye on A/F ratios and injector duty cycle. If you find that the ECU is adding more fuel with larger gaps and or the LSx coils...then that is a good thing . It means that you are getting more complete combustion and that should equate into more power. 

I'm all for Dyno testing...but wanted to confirm results with bench electronic testing first. Less expensive that way :laugh: But if someone is anxious to pull the trigger..then go for it. :beer: 

I think at this point the positives are looking really good. The ONLY downside to this is the 3ms dwell question. And that has almost been fully answered now. IE: It looks like it is not an issue. 

I just wanted Bruce to test these on his bench to give us some factual figures.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> I'm not sure if there are "knock off" lesser-quality versions of the LS2 coils but I found D585 (truck coil) replacements for $23/piece at Amazon.


 Dang..I couldn't find any D585 ( LS2 " Truck " ) coils at that price when I was looking. The D514 LS2 coils are nearly as good..a bit less powerful and no heatsink, but I they are still a kick ass coil. 

Note: It's the LS1 coils that are the weakest coils. Don't buy those :thumbdown:


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Here is my dyno angle:
> 
> Both coils
> Multiple gaps (20,30,40,50+)
> ...


 

Ya ya, hurry up. I gotta wire this POS up here shortly. lol 

OP - Timing is good. I orginally planned to go the route of LS2 coils soley based on the improved durability for a BT/FI application. As with every project - it's cost me 10x what it should and taken twice as long. That said, I'm getting close to firing this baby up so the re-visit regarding this setup couldn't have come at a better time. I "had" planned on just going with FSI coils and new harness most recently as results have been better but still hearing about failures there as well. COP's just don't like the heat. 

So that said, I'm all for going along with this testing and see what comes of it. Reliability is the key ultimately. I'll take an performance benefit's I can get after that. :thumbup:


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

Decided to pull said trigger. D585's on the way


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Chickenman35 said:


> Be aware that logging misfires may not show anything.....even when the plugs are actually misfiring.
> 
> The misfire counter is *disabled at WOT* and it takes a BIG misfire to even trigger it at cruise speeds. It is not that sensitive a device, as it is triggered by variations in crankshaft speed. It also takes a given number of misfires over a certain time period to trigger the code. It is also reset after a finite period of time. It is really a gross failure device ( such as a dead plug or injector ) used to protect the Catalytic Convertor from damage.
> 
> ...


 You are right. It works via crank sensor timing, and or changes in it. The threshold is also very high on these motors, you will get misfire counter increments and it decrements over time if no other misfires are encountered.... so if you get like 5 in 10 seconds, you may get a CEL , but if you get 2 in 10 seconds and it decays back down, the counter decrements after x amount of revolutions/time etc. (whatever Bosch thought was great) back to 0. 

You can watch misfires on a vacuum gauge, and log the misfire counter watching it never increment because the crank speed change is not enough.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

You can see misfires on the dyno too


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

need_a_VR6 said:


> You can see misfires on the dyno too


 Via AFR changes and little drop offs in the power? Makes sense to me if so. But im retarded.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Why is it that when things that are popular (and have been for a very long time) in other car sects come over to the 1.8t forum people act like it's an act of god?:what: 

The LS coil trick has (like I've previously said) been done for a long time and thank you ElRey! That is spot on the easiest way to set up those coils. You find a nice place to put them. Possibly a bracket to hold all 4 and then run plug wires from them. DONE. 

The adapters are EASY to find for using them on the 1.8t I think even 034 sells them. 

Toby, I know you're always trying to make a dollar, but this one is ridiculous... Only way I'd see it being a sales oppourtunity would be to machine a bracket to mount them as stated (like ElRey) and sell a kit including the other bits with or without the coils. 


Or just look at 034's overpriced High output coils... Look familiar Just mounted on a bracket with a wire wrapped around for a makeshift COP solution (ripoff) :sly: 









http://www.034motorsport.com/ignition-solutions-connector-coil-ls2-pin-p-18873.html 
http://www.034motorsport.com/ignition-solutions-wire-set-vw-16v-for-034-wastespark-coil-p-429.html


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

DMVDUB said:


> Why is it that when things that are popular (and have been for a very long time) in other car sects come over to the 1.8t forum people act like it's an act of god?:what:
> 
> The LS coil trick has (like I've previously said) been done for a long time and thank you ElRey! That is spot on the easiest way to set up those coils. You find a nice place to put them. Possibly a bracket to hold all 4 and then run plug wires from them. DONE.
> 
> ...


 Sigh. Everytime you barge in it's like listening to that annoying ass kid in class... trying to correct people when they never even said anything contrary in the first place.  

Nobody said this is was new, or God's Gift To The 1.8T Engine Forum. Someone posted a thread about doing a *do it yourself* conversion... not about who has already done it or who already sells kits for it. As well, this thread is about the *technical* side of the equation. Asking the questions that matter: do these coils work well on the ME7? do they actually need standalone-level control for optimum performance? etc etc If you find a thread that has already gone over this and gotten all the possible data there is... by all means, post a link to it. 

As far as "sales oppourtunities", nobody said anything about selling anything... except for me selling parts, at cost, to people who don't have the means to assemble them properly themselves. 

Next time you post, it should be about you finding the coils for a cheaper price or finding some cheap conversion kit or finding technical specs on the coils when run on ME7 with a 1.8T engine. Besides that, you're just wasting your time and everyone else's time by cluttering this thread. 

Thanks. :beer:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

here since nothing I do is helpful... 

here's where you can get any of the genuine GM coils and pigtails if needed. 

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/catalog/frameset.cfm 

$68 for Delphi 

$37 for Mitsubishi:wave:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Here's a one more since it's so hard to find a decent priced GM coil 
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raf...&partkey=1193940&a=FRc1431996k1193940-3199966 


don't think you'll be finding OEM for under $30.XX 

Oh, and of you really want the heatsink ones... Here $38.89


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

DMVDUB said:


> Here's a one more since it's so hard to find a decent priced GM coil
> http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raf...&partkey=1193940&a=FRc1431996k1193940-3199966
> 
> 
> ...


 See this is what I thought, OEM grade coils are still like 60-70$. That is still cheaper for heatsinked coils than I have ever seen.


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

*hm*

Thats because rockauto kicks ass! :thumbup:


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

I got mine from salvage yard for $15 a piece including pigtails OEM. 

AWP ECU stock will throw 'OPEN CIRCUIT' DTC and CEL. So, those DTC flags need to be modified in the software (4, 1 for each coil). Car runs fine, you just have to stare at the CEL. 

Stock dwell will run the coils and even allow a larger gap in high boost than vag coils *BUT* to get the really hot spark or really large gap, the dwell tables need to be modified with longer dwell times.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

elRey said:


> I got mine from salvage yard for $15 a piece including pigtails OEM.
> 
> AWP ECU stock will throw 'OPEN CIRCUIT' DTC and CEL. So, those DTC flags need to be modified in the software (4, 1 for each coil). Car runs fine, you just have to stare at the CEL.
> 
> Stock dwell will run the coils and even allow a larger gap in high boost than vag coils *BUT* to get the really hot spark or really large gap, the dwell tables need to be modified with longer dwell times.


 Could that be resistored out as part of the conversion harness we're talking about?


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

I don't see why it couldn't.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The stock coils have an internal resistor of ~200ohms from signal to ground fwiw.


----------



## elRey (May 15, 2001)

need_a_VR6 said:


> The stock coils have an internal resistor of ~200ohms from signal to ground fwiw.


 Just measured resistance across #2 and #3 on a spare LS2 truck coil. It read 10K ohms. 

So you'll need a resistor across #2 and #3 leads of 200ohms or 220ohms (which ever is easiest to find).


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

elRey said:


> Just measured resistance across #2 and #3 on a spare LS2 truck coil. It read 10K ohms.
> 
> So you'll need a resistor across #2 and #3 leads of 200ohms or 220ohms (which ever is easiest to find).


 http://ecee.colorado.edu/~mcclurel/resistorsandcaps.pdf 

Both are standard 5% resistors...both should be easy at any decent parts house


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

elRey said:


> Converted almost 2 yrs ago. I'll do the same for any other BT project I may do in the future.
> 
> *note*: running on AWP ECU


 What were the part numbers from Taylor that you used to make up that lead set? TIA 

Richard


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Made some edits to Post #1 with parts list as I gather more parts and info. 

Edit: NGK Optra leads perfect for AEB's


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Keeping a close eye on this for the 5857 car.


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Hmm, stupid post where I was not thinking straight... should have waited more than 5 minutes after I woke up. :laugh:

Parts are still inbound but should be here soon hopefully.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Took a couple of pics showing NGK KRX011 leads fitting on my AEB. They work great and the price was right. Not worried about only being 7mm. Will do for now and I may change to an AGN Valve cover later, which will require different leads.


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Chickenman or Paul... could either of you measure the height and width, roughly, of the connector on the coils? I just got the parts in but these connectors look suspiciously small. I'm just curious if I actually got the right stuff.


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

For spark plug leads for non-AEB's, you can also check out mid 1990's Honda with the DOHC enegine and Nissan 240SX with the KA24DE DOHC engine. 

Update: Spartiati has found the plug leads from a Honda H22 VTEC motor fit AWM and AWP valve covers perfectly. These came on many Honda models in the mid 1990-s including Preludes and CRX's. NGK part number HE65 ( 8019 ) in 7mm

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...t-and-Info&p=76234292&viewfull=1#post76234292

MSD and Taylor usually carry these in 8mm and 8.5mm performance sets. Just snip off the coil ends and replace with LS2 coil terminals. ( Edit: Ghetto Mod. You can also just use standard coil terminals and reduce the diameter with a pair pliers. Not pretty but it works!! )

For custom made plug leads, you are looking for a spark plug boot like this, only with the following dimensions.

Boot seal diameter =30 -32mm or as close as you can get.

Boot length = 127 - 130mm. From bottom of boot to top of sealing ring.










BTW.This is an excellant site to get plug boots and coil boots if you want to build your own wires:

http://www.kingsbornewires.com/main.sc


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Chickenman or Paul... could either of you measure the height and width, roughly, of the connector on the coils? I just got the parts in but these connectors look suspiciously small. I'm just curious if I actually got the right stuff.


They are quite a compact connector.

Width = 14.68mm Not including locating tabs.

Width = 17.40 mm to edge of locating tabs.

Height = 6.18mm

Will take a picture and post in a minute.










This is the connector that you need:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-IGNITION...Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item3a6cc3e712


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Fair enough.... seems like I got the right one then. Everything I got matches what you linked... I just didn't get any TPAs for the connector... should be fine without them, but I'll snag the part number and order some up.

Thanks. I'll get to building these bad boys tonight.


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Here's some pics of the ICM terminals that you wanted. In case someone wants an ICM delete.

ECU to POS: 



POS to Coils:



Richard


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Just to update.... I've been slackin' on my pimpin'. Gonna try to get these adapters made tonight. :beer:


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Adapters made.  Just waiting on the delivery of the male VW connectors + the TPAs for the LS2 coil connectors, which I finally took the time to find, so I can assemble them fully and then I'll be able to ship them off to Paul. :thumbup:


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I gotta get on some plug wires!


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

I'm just waiting on some aluminum spacers for the coil mounts and misc wire sleeving.


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Adapters made.  Just waiting on the delivery of the male VW connectors + the TPAs for the LS2 coil connectors, which I finally took the time to find, so I can assemble them fully and then I'll be able to ship them off to Paul. :thumbup:


What the heck are TPA's?


----------



## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

would something like this work?

http://gruvenparts.com/website/cart/cart.php?target=product&product_id=264&category_id=60


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Use the OEM GM bracket it bolts right up to the firewall or wherever LS2-LS6 will work well and cost almost nothing


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Chickenman35 said:


> What the heck are TPA's?


TPA = terminal position assurance. It's the grey piece that snaps in at the back of the wire. It has tabs to locate and keep the terminals in position... aka keep them from backing out. Delphi connectors are often designed with little internal connector/terminal locking, so they often have TPAs for many of their connector lines.

You'll notice that FEP/Tyco builds this in to the terminals/connectors themselves... many of the JPT terminals have back-out lock prongs on both sides of a terminal... and the connectors that are more critical have the classic purple TPA that usually slides in thru a slot on the side of the connector. It is profiled to go between the mating section and the crimp section of the terminal and effectively locks the terminal in place and prevents its from backing out under tension. The coilpack connectors are a perfect example of this, along with the ECU connectors. Some of the FEP/Tyco connectors have built-in TPAs in the area of the housing where the terminals protrude, and they slide up and down, or slide in and out, to lock the terminals in place. A good example of this style is the 4-pin fan power connector that goes to the FCM or the 14-pin connector on the drivers side, next to the battery box.

End connector history lesson. :laugh:


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

ejg3855 said:


> would something like this work?
> 
> http://gruvenparts.com/website/cart/cart.php?target=product&product_id=264&category_id=60


You'd need two of them to fit all four coils.... or mount two on top and two on the bottom... but I dunno. Sadly, the 034 Motorsport solution is really simple and effective for putting the coils on top of the valve cover and having the plug wires all built-in. Replicating those brackets/wires cheaply would be the simplest solution but there are a lot of bends, so dunno. 

Doesn't really matter where you end up mounting them... as long as they are safe from getting splashed and not hovering over the turbo or something. The cooler the better.


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

I've contacted Bruce Bowling ( LSx coil video producer and MegaSquirt Guru ) regarding testing of the LS2 and Yukon coils. He sounds eager to help our community as best he can...but is very busy for the next month or so. 

Encouraging news is that he thinks the LS2 coils ( especially the Yukon models ) will offer a substantial increase in output over the VW/Audi COP pencil coils.

Excerpt from his reply:

*Hi Richard,

Yes, I need to dust off the cobwebs in my mind, it was a while when I posted the video...

Off the cuff, I think that running the coil at 3ms will be just fine. They already possess a lot of energy and a shorter dwell time will lower this a bit, but it is still enough to be really useful. And the pencil-type COP coils (I think that is what is used on the VW/Audi) are very weak like you say, so the Yukon conversion running at 3ms should be a substantial improvement.

As for testing coils, I have the tester unit still and could run some tests. My only problem is time, for the next month I am totally slammed. Afterwards I would be more than happy to run some of these and get numbers for comparison. The data would be useful, for sure. *

I've suggested that members could probably supply him with the necessary hardware, Coils, harnesses and ICM's to conduct this test. But I will leave it up to Bruce to post to this thread and proceed as he wishes. :thumbup:


----------



## 02337 (May 12, 2009)

Interesting read after spending 3+ hours reading up on this and the 2.0t coilpack thread there's a lot of information to be had concerning my ignition system. Keeping an eye on this for hopeful future use.
Correct if I'm wrong but it seems that this could prove useful on non adjustable tunes at the stock 3ms dwell? 
I may be way off here as it's almost 3 am and information after a while becomes blurry.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

02337 said:


> ( Snip ) Correct if I'm wrong but it seems that this could prove useful on non adjustable tunes at the stock 3ms dwell? (/Snip)


Correct. It's a no-brainer with tunes that the dwell can be adjusted to 5ms. All indications are that this conversion should also be beneficial with non-adjustable dwells that are stuck at 3ms. With Bruce Bowling's help, and some test projects currently in the build stages by members, we hope too be able to confirm that information with some factual data.

Most of us are just waiting for miscellaneous parts to arrive and then hopefully we can then start posting some results.


----------



## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

Chickenman35 said:


> Correct. It's a no-brainer with tunes that the dwell can be adjusted to 5ms. All indications are that this conversion should also be beneficial with non-adjustable dwells that are stuck at 3ms. With Bruce Bowling's help, and some test projects currently in the build stages by members, we hope too be able to confirm that information with some factual data.
> 
> Most of us are just waiting for miscellaneous parts to arrive and then hopefully we can then start posting some results.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Might have to sell my MK5 coils sooner than I thought... :laugh:


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Chickenman35 said:


> I've contacted Bruce Bowling ( LSx coil video producer and MegaSquirt Guru ) regarding testing of the LS2 and Yukon coils. He sounds eager to help our community as best he can...but is very busy for the next month or so.
> 
> Encouraging news is that he thinks the LS2 coils ( especially the Yukon models ) will offer a substantial increase in output over the VW/Audi COP pencil coils.
> 
> ...


If you can give me his contact info / let him know I'll be contacting him, I can supply a 2.0T coil and stock 1.8T coil for him to test with. :thumbup: TPAs should be here soon, so adapters will be going out to Paul shortly. :beer:

EDIT: I'll also spring for one of the "fake" non-AC Delco versions of the truck coils to throw in the mix as well... since it was questionable on whether or not you need a "true" OEM LS2 coil to get the benefits. I have my own opinions, but I'd like to see how the data shakes out. :thumbup:


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

Stock dwell info: the hard max is 3.5ms. However, the base dwell map only request 2.7ms around max torque area of a k03 car and a little les as RPM rise.

RPM x Load in ms


440480100020002520300040005000600017.253.003.003.003.002.702.602.001.601.4020.253.003.002.602.402.101.901.601.401.4025.253.003.002.402.202.001.701.601.501.4034.503.003.002.302.201.901.701.701.601.5069.003.003.002.402.402.202.001.901.801.7085.503.003.002.602.602.402.202.001.901.80102.753.003.002.702.602.502.302.202.001.90120.003.003.002.802.702.602.502.402.202.00137.253.003.002.902.702.702.702.602.502.30165.003.003.002.902.702.702.702.702.602.40


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I have some used truck coils and new "knockoff" ls2 coils it seems. No ls1s but no worries there. Waiting on plug wires and a few spare minutes to make a bracket.


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

elRey said:


> Stock dwell info: the hard max is 3.5ms. However, the base dwell map only request 2.7ms around max torque area of a k03 car and a little les as RPM rise.
> 
> RPM x Load in ms
> 
> ...


What's the map name?


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> What's the map name?


KFTSRL -> RPMxLoad
TSMX -> max


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

elRey said:


> KFTSRL -> RPMxLoad
> TSMX -> max


Word, good to know. :beer:

Order came back out of stock for those super cheap OEM replacement Yukon/D585 coils... so I guess I'll have to keep looking for a super cheap pair.

TPAs should be here this week then the harnesses will be off to Paul. Realized my stock 1.8T coils are actually revision R's and since those are the cream of the crop 1.8T coils... we'll be able to compare the "best" 1.8T coils, albeit used, vs a new 2.0T coil... which will show whether or not the whole 2.0T craze was really worth it... vs a LS2 coil to see what a stock ME7 can do with them over our OEM coilpacks.

Should be a good line-up with a lot of useful output data. 

EDIT: Found some being sold on eBay for $28 a piece, $25/piece for a set of 4. They are another brand, AIP Electronics or something... but they are supposed to be OEM replacements and appear to be Yukon coils. Gonna snag one. :thumbup:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Shoot me a pm with a link, I will get a few as well. 

So far, I am thinking of logging quite a few days commutes. Test both coil types at a few different gaps. Any ideas on limits to set there? .020" lower, maybe .050" or so and see where the stock coils give up and give the ls's a shot?


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Shoot me a pm with a link, I will get a few as well.
> 
> So far, I am thinking of logging quite a few days commutes. Test both coil types at a few different gaps. Any ideas on limits to set there? .020" lower, maybe .050" or so and see where the stock coils give up and give the ls's a shot?


http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Herllux-Ignition-Coil-Single-D585-19005218-/360378742776#ht_2516wt_952

If you browse their store, they have a link to a set of 4 for $100 flat.

As far as plug gaps, I think .020 to .050 is a pretty good range to test out with. Maybe even .025 to .045. I think going any higher, or lower, than those values means you're either trying to band-aid your really weak ignition system by lowering the gap or you're approaching diminishing returns.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Found quite a few New & Used sets of OEM GM Yukon coils. Set of 4 as low as $60.00 

Here's my search:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw...oil&_osacat=33687&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

For $60 to $100 for a set of 4 Yukon D585s, I'd be inclined to go with used OEM GM coils.


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

True. I think the good thing here is that since they are so robust, getting them used shouldn't be an issue in terms of reliability. Even if you blew one and needed to replace it, though... since they are designed to be so robust, the OEM replicas, the non AC Delco ones and what not... they should probably be fine to use, too. At $25 or less for one, they are priced well enough also.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I am going to give the msd 8.5s a try. If they dont work on the 1.8 I will toss em on the vr6.


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I am going to give the msd 8.5s a try. If they dont work on the 1.8 I will toss em on the vr6.


Is there anything specific to the LS2 coils as far as the plug ends go? Compared to say.... the wasted spark ignition pack for the VR6s?


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Is there anything specific to the LS2 coils as far as the plug ends go? Compared to say.... the wasted spark ignition pack for the VR6s?


You mean on the coil end? Yes..the LSx coils have a special small diameter terminal ( Smaller than a spark plug terminal ). Not familiar with what a VR6 uses as a terminal on the coil end.



MSD makes them. LT1 Optispark and LSx coil connectors are the same size.

LT1 straight coil terminal and boot = PN 3302 ( 2 per card )

LT1 90 degree terminal and boot = PN 3303 ( 2 per card )

LSx 45 degree terminal and boot = PN 3304 (2 per card )

Edit: Link to Kingsbourne coil terminals and boots:

90 degree style Package of 10 = $15.00 : http://www.kingsbornewires.com/product.sc?productId=905&categoryId=96

45 degree style. Package of 10 = $16.00 : http://www.kingsbornewires.com/product.sc?productId=978&categoryId=96


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The vr6 has ls2 coils on it just no wires, I was going to get Magnecores 

All the ls coils use the same generic terminal. The only difference I see is the multi angle boot vs straight or 90deg thats typical in most wires.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> The vr6 has ls2 coils on it just no wires, I was going to get Magnecores
> 
> All the ls coils use the same generic terminal. The only difference I see is the multi angle boot vs straight or 90deg thats typical in most wires.


The Magnecores will be nice. :thumbup: They can custom build them with the LSx coil terminals of course. You should be able to get them built with 90 degree LSx boots and terminals if you want.

My expandable wire sleeving and extreme temperature wire sleeving just arrived. I can finally start on assembly work.

TechFlex sent me a catalog. They make some really fine products. Some sweet Military and Aerospace grade stuff: http://www.techflex.com/


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

It'd be nice to get the non CDI or multiple spark test done on one of these:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-8247/


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Yes...but $96.95 each falls out of my budget.  Would be nice to test though.

MSD 8247 are rated at 150mj. 

The Yukon coils are rated at 120mj.

120mj is HUGE coil output BTW.


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## sabbySC (Dec 29, 2009)

gdoggmoney said:


> It'd be nice to get the non CDI or multiple spark test done on one of these:
> 
> http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-8247/



FWIW lots of GM people claim the MSD's are no better than stockers.


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## sabbySC (Dec 29, 2009)

http://www.automotivedesigneng.com/products/coil_pack.html

Here are some decent looking coil mounts for those interested. People could buy a set and split them, or maybe try contacting the vendor and see if they will sell half sets.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Chickenman35 said:


> Yes...but $96.95 each falls out of my budget.  Would be nice to test though.
> 
> MSD 8247 are rated at 150mj.
> 
> ...


That is huge, but look at the size vs a coil on plug unit. 

http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/content/language2/html/2847.htm


Beats any COP stuff Bosch does.


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

TPAs here! Adapters going out to Paul tomorrow.  These things are perty, albeit a little long at around 3.25 ft long a piece. Plenty of length to tuck those truck coils somewhere.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

So I'll assume those are terminated to work with the OE 1.8T coil harness correct?


Look great! I ordered the LS coil harness stuff with simple flying leads and ~8' worth of pigtail. I'm going to wire directly to the high current drivers on my MS3x back to the cabin mounted ECU. Should be clean. 

Gotta get some TechFlex to pretty the whole deal up now. Love how clean that is.



Also, for anyone looking at those relocation brackets for the coils, let me know and I'll split a set with someone. :thumbup:


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Fast929 said:


> So I'll assume those are terminated to work with the OE 1.8T coil harness correct?
> 
> 
> Look great! I ordered the LS coil harness stuff with simple flying leads and ~8' worth of pigtail. I'm going to wire directly to the high current drivers on my MS3x back to the cabin mounted ECU. Should be clean.
> ...


Yeah, these will plug in for Paul to the OEM 4-pin coilpack connectors.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Had I gotten longer plug wires, I would have had to mount the coils under the drivers seat with those adapters


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Had I gotten longer plug wires, I would have had to mount the coils under the drivers seat with those adapters


:laugh: :laugh: Just wanted to give you some flexibility.


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Any idea on pricing? How about group buy?


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> TPAs here! Adapters going out to Paul tomorrow.  These things are perty, albeit a little long at around 3.25 ft long a piece. Plenty of length to tuck those truck coils somewhere.


Very nice work :beer:


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

l88m22vette said:


> Any idea on pricing? How about group buy?


Pricing for what? Not sure if we could manage to get a group buy going for coils. D:


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Chickenman35 said:


> Very nice work :beer:


Thanks! The braided sleeving on those isn't quite top notch, and I seared it a little bit when doing the heatshrink ends... but they are for testing, so whatever.  I'm really moving towards elastomer-based sleeving, though. Stuff like DR-25. Expensive as **** but it's Formula 1 quality. Really really hard to beat. Need to find a cheap supply of it.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks! The braided sleeving on those isn't quite top notch, and I seared it a little bit when doing the heatshrink ends... but they are for testing, so whatever.  I'm really moving towards elastomer-based sleeving, though. Stuff like DR-25. Expensive as **** but it's Formula 1 quality. Really really hard to beat. Need to find a cheap supply of it.


What about fiberglass heat sleeving + 3:1 chemical grade adhesive heat shrink?


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

groggory said:


> What about fiberglass heat sleeving + 3:1 chemical grade adhesive heat shrink?


Fiberglass sleeving is loose... you can add it on, sure, but the DR-25 is what really shines. It's elastomer-based, so the usable operating range is -75 deg C to 150 deg C. Highly chemical resistant. Gives the wire more protection in general than the fiberglass sleeving would, and it's shrunk to the bundle, so it's easily routable.

DR-25 is literally what they use in Formula 1 wiring, amongst other automotive racing groups. If you're worried about the heat from a top-mount turbo or something, sure, you could sleeve that portion in fiberglass stuff... but that's not what you want as the cable sheathing, and the good adhesive-lined heat shrink is the PTFE/Teflon stuff, which is also $$$.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Fiberglass sleeving is loose... you can add it on, sure, but the DR-25 is what really shines. It's elastomer-based, so the usable operating range is -75 deg C to 150 deg C. Highly chemical resistant. Gives the wire more protection in general than the fiberglass sleeving would, and it's shrunk to the bundle, so it's easily routable.
> 
> DR-25 is literally what they use in Formula 1 wiring, amongst other automotive racing groups. If you're worried about the heat from a top-mount turbo or something, sure, you could sleeve that portion in fiberglass stuff... but that's not what you want as the cable sheathing, and the good adhesive-lined heat shrink is the PTFE/Teflon stuff, which is also $$$.


I'd take whatever you made it in, and wrap it in DEI 1500 degree cool tape because not only do I like my engine bay looking like an apollo moon landing, but I am anal about wiring and heat.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Fiberglass sleeving is loose... you can add it on, sure, but the DR-25 is what really shines. It's elastomer-based, so the usable operating range is -75 deg C to 150 deg C. Highly chemical resistant. Gives the wire more protection in general than the fiberglass sleeving would, and it's shrunk to the bundle, so it's easily routable.
> 
> DR-25 is literally what they use in Formula 1 wiring, amongst other automotive racing groups. If you're worried about the heat from a top-mount turbo or something, sure, you could sleeve that portion in fiberglass stuff... but that's not what you want as the cable sheathing, and the good adhesive-lined heat shrink is the PTFE/Teflon stuff, which is also $$$.


Good deal. Yeah...that DR-25 is like $5/ft for 3/8" lol. I think the solution to go for is...

Nice connectors w/ wire plug seals
Good, chemical resistant, high quality wire
Tech flex that is chemical and temperature appropriate
adhesive lined heat shrink to seal the tech flex to the bundle ends

This harness will not have any y's or t's or anything, so properly supporting those won't be an issue.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Go for it


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

groggory said:


> Good deal. Yeah...that DR-25 is like $5/ft for 3/8" lol. I think the solution to go for is...
> 
> Nice connectors w/ wire plug seals
> Good, chemical resistant, high quality wire
> ...




You can get it for like $2.50/ft ish... but of course there's volume discounting and what not. The molded boots are the real money... ~$30 or more for a single Y junction. 

As far as braided expandable sleeving goes... there's tons of versions, and I have been eyeing Halar sleeving for a while now. Plenum rated, chemically inert, self-extinguishing. Really though, for what most people are doing, the regular flame retardant stuff is good enough and nothing short of the fiberglass sleeving or heat-reflective tape is gonna save the wiring from the hot side of a turbo if its an inch away... it's a give and take. 

But yeah, all the connectors, terminals and seals are OEM, production-level crimped.. wiring is TXL so automotive-rated, etc. They should eliminate any chance of bad wiring contributing to bad test results when Paul does his coil testing... that's for sure.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The only thing I dont like about the sleeve is that it can internally accumulate oil that cant really be easily removed. 

Tefzel + dr25 = awesome, but $$$

I am sure itll be fine when I roof mount the coils!


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Pricing for what? Not sure if we could manage to get a group buy going for coils. D:


The LS coil -> OEM harness adapters...


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

need_a_VR6 said:


> The only thing I dont like about the sleeve is that it can internally accumulate oil that cant really be easily removed.
> 
> Tefzel + dr25 = awesome, but $$$
> 
> I am sure itll be fine when I roof mount the coils!


Exactly, stuff is the bomb diggity.

Roof mounted eh? Gonna have a roof vent mounted to keep em cool? 



l88m22vette said:


> The LS coil -> OEM harness adapters...


I'm not an advertiser here so talking about $$$ isn't allowed. You can always message me personally though. :thumbup:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

They'll go on the topside of the roof. Plenty of air for the heatsinks.


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

So the D585 (truck coil) OE replacement arrived today. All in all, build quality appears good and the coil isn't beat up or wimpy and flimsy or anything. I've never seen a true OEM one so I dunno, but this one appears to be top notch. Whether or not the electrical performance is the same is what we can hopefully get answered. 

At this point, I have a used 1.8T coil, new 2.0T coil and new D585/Truck coil OE replacement. Aside from a new 1.8T coil and true legit D585, I think we have a pretty good test bed. Hopefully Bruce will be able to help us out and test them all. 

Here's some pictures:


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

What units did you order and thru who? I snagged a set off amazon not realizing they were an off brand so ended up returning those with plans to order OE replacements through Rock Auto. Hoping for good quality setup so I can do it right - do it once.....

Looks good!


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Fast929 said:


> What units did you order and thru who? I snagged a set off amazon not realizing they were an off brand so ended up returning those with plans to order OE replacements through Rock Auto. Hoping for good quality setup so I can do it right - do it once.....
> 
> Looks good!


I got the coil from alanisdeals on eBay. Here's the link: auction link

They are listed as being Herllux brand, which I have never heard of before. My intention is to see if they are on par with a true D585/truck coil from the dealership.

EDIT: Just ordered an AC Delco D585 off eBay for $35... which is pretty good.  The description said qty of 2 but didn't show two. I figure either way... it's a deal. Now there's four coils to test.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Got the harnesses today, I have some little stuff to take care of this week on the car then its bracket time.


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Got the harnesses today, I have some little stuff to take care of this week on the car then its bracket time.


:thumbup:

Just to note, in general: the connectors I used for the adapters I sent to Paul do indeed fit this D585 replacement coil.. so at least we know we have the right part numbers.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

Just as an fyi, I contacted Robert from automotivedesigneng.com and he's working up a single mounting bracket for a set of 4 coils for my application. ;-)

So if someone else is looking for a clean install on a nice all inclusive bracket, drop him a line.


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Got the OEM AC Delco D585s in today... so now there is a brand new legit D585 to throw into the testing mix. Just need to pick up a brand new 1.8T coil. :thumbup:


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Built some brackets today. Some scrap aluminum that I had laying about, 1/4" ready rod and aluminum spacers from:

http://aluminum-spacers.com/?gclid=CNCwv7nEx64CFYEBRQodbGHFAg

Here's some pics of coils and bracket. Will be mounted to firewall directly behind cylinder head ( Audi A4 ). Overall length is 9.5" to ends of aluminum " U " channel. If I used " L " channel I could get that down to 8". Pretty compact. :thumbup:


----------



## 02337 (May 12, 2009)

i m so ready for these in my life. It'll be nice to not think ignition problems at the first sign of car trouble.


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Fast929 said:


> Just as an fyi, I contacted Robert from automotivedesigneng.com and he's working up a single mounting bracket for a set of 4 coils for my application. ;-)
> 
> So if someone else is looking for a clean install on a nice all inclusive bracket, drop him a line.


That would be sweet. I can see a decent market for these developing fairly soon. :thumbup:


----------



## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Hey chickenman in your first post you make mention of using a terminal block and relay instead of using the ecu's 12v. Is that specifically because you have an earlier AEB 1.8t (I'm assuming early AEB from your previous posts). If I were to get an adaptor for the 1.8t coil harness to the gm coil it should be plug and play no? Or would you recommend tapping the battery with a relay and direct 12v feed.

I'm very interested in trying this out as well and just worried about frying the ECU. haha.


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

I'd be interested in a mount that replaces the power steering bottle with a bracket for the coils. Get them away from the turbo but keep them close enough to not have a ratsnest of wiring. PS seems like a good candidate to remote mount since there are guides for putting it under the frame rail, etc.

Anyways, sent an e-mail to Bruce Bowling laying out the testing we'd want done, etc... hopefully he bites and can get us some numbers down the road.


----------



## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I'd be interested in a mount that replaces the power steering bottle with a bracket for the coils. Get them away from the turbo but keep them close enough to not have a ratsnest of wiring. PS seems like a good candidate to remote mount since there are guides for putting it under the frame rail, etc.
> 
> Anyways, sent an e-mail to Bruce Bowling laying out the testing we'd want done, etc... hopefully he bites and can get us some numbers down the road.


Tobz I was thinking of putting the coils on the driver side next to the head. No need to run tons of wires. The coilpack harness would be right there. Rather than running the harness over the valve cover and then wires back to the valve cover youd have everything on the driverside (and only need 3" long adapters at most) and then the spark plug wires running from the coils to the spark plugs. That's what I'm probably going to end up doing.


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

spartiati said:


> Tobz I was thinking of putting the coils on the driver side next to the head. No need to run tons of wires. The coilpack harness would be right there. Rather than running the harness over the valve cover and then wires back to the valve cover youd have everything on the driverside (and only need 3" long adapters at most) and then the spark plug wires running from the coils to the spark plugs. That's what I'm probably going to end up doing.


Well, if I convert to these, I'd be wiring them up fresh.... think replacement 1.8T coilpack harness but designed specifically for LS2 coils and long enough to reach to the original PS mounting location. That's the only reason I prefer the PS mount over anything else. It's the least cluttered real estate in my engine.


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

spartiati said:


> Hey chickenman in your first post you make mention of using a terminal block and relay instead of using the ecu's 12v. Is that specifically because you have an earlier AEB 1.8t (I'm assuming early AEB from your previous posts). If I were to get an adaptor for the 1.8t coil harness to the gm coil it should be plug and play no? Or would you recommend tapping the battery with a relay and direct 12v feed.
> 
> I'm very interested in trying this out as well and just worried about frying the ECU. haha.


That was my main concern as well. but Toby mentioned in post #23 that the 12v power came through a relay and was fused. So ECU should be safe. 

I do have an AEB but have been too busy to look things up. I'd double check your specific year and model to make sure.

My second consideration is that I want to get as much primary voltage to the coils as possible, especially as we are running below optimal dwell. More voltage = less dwell required. 

Not confident in factory wiring and relays, in regards to voltage drop.

My solution was to run a 12 gauge feed straight off the battery to a fused 30 amp Relay. Trigger for relay would be one of the 12 volt feeds from the factory wiring circuit. Actually I would solder them all together and run one wire to the relay trigger. That way you should not get any MIL codes for open 12v circuit to coils.

Relay will bolt onto the coil bracket I just made, so nice short runs. I have an Audi, so battery is right behind firewall. Easy to get to and short wiring runs. Coils are well away from Turbo and CatConv :thumbup:


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Chickenman35 said:


> That was my main concern as well. but Toby mentioned in post #23 that the 12v power came through a relay and was fused. So ECU should be safe.
> 
> I do have an AEB but have been too busy to look things up. I'd double check your specific year and model to make sure.
> 
> ...


Should be easy enough to check voltage drop of factory wiring. If acceptable I would not hesitate to use a Plug and Play...especially on 4 wire terminals. Toby mentioned that he could make up adapters and harnesses for early 3 wire coils as well.

I'm doing an ICM delete and already have all the harnesses and terminals, so I don't really need a Plug and Play for my AEB. Plus I like tinkering


----------



## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

Don't the 034 option for this modification make sexy little brackets so the coils sit in the OEM location?


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

ejg3855 said:


> Don't the 034 option for this modification make sexy little brackets so the coils sit in the OEM location?


We're using different ( better ) coils and we want them to be away from the OEM location and excess heat.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

I don't think the 034 option looks clean at all. Much prefer a cleanly bracketed set of these remotely mounted to protect them from the heat. Short magnacores should handle the rest ;-)

So fill me in on the relayed high current 12v feeds.... I'm curious how your wiring these up. I picked up full 8' flying leads for direct tie into my ems...


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

I think the simplest option... well, simplest if you have the crimpers and what not but you could splice in as well.. anyways:

- run new wires directly to the trigger pins for all the coils; run these to where you'll have the coils
- also run the ground wire from the ecu to the coils
- run a line from the battery positive to where the coils are
- run a switched positive to where the coils are
- run a fat ground from the head/block to where the coils are
- throw in a relay to provide switched 12v for the coils
- wire up the rest
- ???
- because racecar

I might take a wack at this... I need to nab the proper wire for the trigger signals since they are small diameter but I have all the rest. Should be easy enough and then people would atleast have the gauge/wire lengths at their disposal if they wanted to do it on their own.


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

I'm rolling standalone so I'll direct wire to the ecu for most of it. Feed wise, I'd like to make sure they are properly supplied +12v though. 

Could be a baddddd setup!


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

[email protected]d said:


> I think the simplest option... well, simplest if you have the crimpers and what not but you could splice in as well.. anyways:
> 
> - run new wires directly to the trigger pins for all the coils; run these to where you'll have the coils
> - also run the ground wire from the ecu to the coils
> ...


That's basically what I'll be doing, with an ICM delete to boot ( AEB )

Edit: Just waiting on my Deutsch crimpers now.


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Fast929 said:


> I'm rolling standalone so I'll direct wire to the ecu for most of it. Feed wise, I'd like to make sure they are properly supplied +12v though.
> 
> Could be a baddddd setup!


And with standalone you should be able to adjust the coil dwell to the optimum 5ms. Yowzer!! :thumbup:


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

For the stock ecu guys I dont think a dedicated relay/feed will make a huge difference. Time to start measuring voltages...


----------



## elRey (May 15, 2001)

Chickenman35 said:


> And with standalone you should be able to adjust the coil dwell to the optimum 5ms. Yowzer!! :thumbup:




FYI, any of you guys can send me your *stock* ECU (or spare one) and I can increase your dwell time. Even willing to do it for cost of shipping for the first one for testing. But thread needs to agree on who.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

No way to change the dwell on an already flashed ecm? I have a spare stocker but it wont be a fair comparo vs my stg2 uni ecu due to boost and timing differences at least.


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

need_a_VR6 said:


> No way to change the dwell on an already flashed ecm? I have a spare stocker but it wont be a fair comparo vs my stg2 uni ecu due to boost and timing differences at least.


some tuning companies encrypt their flash or disable reading/flashing over theirs. understandable.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

elRey said:


> some tuning companies encrypt their flash or disable reading/flashing over theirs. understandable.


There are ways around this. Its pretty easy. The spot in the ecu for dwell can be challenging to find, lots of ECU numbers out there and most of them have a slightly different map structure.

None that I have come across "encrypt" (UNI, Tapp, APR, etc)





need_a_VR6 said:


> No way to change the dwell on an already flashed ecm? I have a spare stocker but it wont be a fair comparo vs my stg2 uni ecu due to boost and timing differences at least.


Either get a cable that reads through the "no upload request" (what the tuners use to lock out the ecu) or pull the ecu, pop it open, throw it in boot mode and read the bin with a galletto cable ($15). Then checksum the changes you make to dwell and use galletto or another software to write the bin back to the ecu.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I got one of those... Who wants to help me brick my ecu?


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

So I spent yesterday hopping around trying to find a wire set that works. The manager at Autozone was pissed I was behind the counter (with permission from the other worker there) and asked me to leave in the not so nicest of ways. 

Anyways as luck would have it my neighbor just pulled up in his new car he just picked up. Honda Prelude with I believe an H22 motor. Lets take a look at the pics below





























Basically its the perfect length and it clicks right into the spark plug. The top of the plug has one 32mm rubber disk which seals the hole going down to the spark plug and then the larger one further up completely blocks everything. Basically a perfect fit! My neighbor just changed his wires so he gave me his old set. I'll use the spark plug portion and change the wire and adapter to accomodate the ls2 coil. 

So to recap for those with AWW AWP valve covers the wireset from the honda prelude have the exact plug for the spark plug and valvecover. The length I believe is alittle short .


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Awesome find on the plug wires Steve!!! :beer::beer::beer: I knew that there had to be something else out there that would fit. I'm going to add this info to the first page.

MSD and other High performance wire makers manufacture a TON of items for Honda. So plug wire selection has suddenly become a whole lot easier and cheaper!! :thumbup:


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

ejg3855 said:


> There are ways around this. Its pretty easy. The spot in the ecu for dwell can be challenging to find, lots of ECU numbers out there and most of them have a slightly different map structure.
> 
> None that I have come across "encrypt" (UNI, Tapp, APR, etc)
> 
> ...


This thread just keeps getting better and better :beer::beer:


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

New updates to first page with new plug wire info. Good work guys!! :beer:


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Werd. Good find on the plug ends. :thumbup:

I've e-mailed Bruce and hopefully he'll get back to me soon... but Chickenman has been in contact with him and he has confirmed he is/will be super busy for a while... so dunno if we'll manage to get legit numbers anytime soon. We can try, though!

Time to find two more AC Delco coils, though, then assemble the plug stuff... and figure out how to get a bracket to mount these on top of the engine mount.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Werd. Good find on the plug ends. :thumbup:
> 
> I've e-mailed Bruce and hopefully he'll get back to me soon... but Chickenman has been in contact with him and he has confirmed he is/will be super busy for a while... so dunno if we'll manage to get legit numbers anytime soon. We can try, though!
> 
> Time to find two more AC Delco coils, though, then assemble the plug stuff... and figure out how to get a bracket to mount these on top of the engine mount.


Tobz since you have one of every coil, 1.8t , 2.0t and the GM coil I have an idea. Wish I had the coils to do this myself. Why not unplug all your fuel injector and plug one of every coil into the harness. Then have a spark plug attached to each coil side by side and video record the difference in the arc while you crank the motor. Make sure the spark plug gaps are the same and that should show us at least if the 2.0 is or isn't stronger than the 1.8t coil as well as the GM and how it reacts relative to ours stock coils and its strength at our factory dwell settings.


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

spartiati said:


> Tobz since you have one of every coil, 1.8t , 2.0t and the GM coil I have an idea. Wish I had the coils to do this myself. Why not unplug all your fuel injector and plug one of every coil into the harness. Then have a spark plug attached to each coil side by side and video record the difference in the arc while you crank the motor. Make sure the spark plug gaps are the same and that should show us at least if the 2.0 is or isn't stronger than the 1.8t coil as well as the GM and how it reacts relative to ours stock coils and its strength at our factory dwell settings.


Awesome idea Steve :thumbup: I was just going to send you an E-mail suggesting the exact same procedure. Couple of suggestions.

1: Pull the plugs from the engine to make it easier on the starter.

2: Hook up a good battery charger so that battery voltage remains consistent.

3: Start at say a .028" gap and then increase until spark fails to jump gap.

This should give us a basic idea of what to expect until Bruce can do some bench testing. :beer: and Pizza

Edit: Found me an AGN valve cover, so the Honda plug lead find was perfect timing!!


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

If anything, I'll probably construct a HV probe to measure the voltage with my DMM and drive the coils with an Arduino or something. This will take some time because I don't want to die, though.  Gotta make sure it's done right. :laugh:


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Ok guys so things have just gotten even easier/better. I called Kingsborne wire sets and spoke with them just before I clicked the order button. The total would have been around 60 ish for all the parts I needed to make my own wires (but I'd be limited to the prelude wire lengths). 

So after telling them what I wanted to do I asked them if I gave them the exact lengths and dimensions if they would be able to make me the wires using the prelude head and the LS2 distributor end. They said no problem. Total cost is 45 dollars. plus shipping? Who the hell cares!?

Adding in that I just ordered my yukon coils from autozone. 45 a piece and a 2 year warranty for Delphi brand coils. I'll be measuring wire lengths tonight and placing my order for the ignition wires tomorrow as well as the adapters. Thanks Tobz


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Re: Kingsboune wires. Was that in 8mm? Is it a spiral wound core? Colors?


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Chickenman35 said:


> Re: Kingsboune wires. Was that in 8mm? Is it a spiral wound core? Colors?


Yes that is spiral wound and 8mm wire. They offer it in Black, Red, Blue and Yellow. For the price though to have custom made to order wires is awesome. I am waiting for the coils to come in so I can fab up a bracket. I'll measure the ignition wires tonight and see what looks feasible in terms of mounting these guys in the car. 

I have 4 options:

1) All four by the coolant bubble and power steering reservoir. I would need to relocate the power steering reservoir which isn't difficult. (Probably best choice)

2) Leave the engine bay as it is and put two coils by the coolant reservoir and the other two by the battery. 

3) Put all four by the battery. Not really fond of this idea at all and not really an option

4) Try and keep things clean and mount it under the intake manifold. Most involved in terms of making a bracket but this would keep things real tidy under the hood. Also shortest ignition wires. (My concern with this is the potential electrical interference between the wires and the injectors. Maybe I'm paranoid but who knows.)

Any feedback guys? I'm thinking 1) is probably the best in terms of keeping the coils away from heat and overall simple setup.


----------



## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

I was thinking about mounting under the intake manifold as well (maybe make a bracket to the block?), that would also get the harness away from an exhaust/turbo heat :thumbup:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I was going to mount mine on the vc still. It gets hot but these coils can survive vc mounting in a Corvette.


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Just an update:

Bruce got back to me and thinks he'll be able to test all the coils for us by April. I'm going to be sending them his way around the end of March. He said he'll do the same thing he did for his LS2 coil testing... measurements, videos, etc. He's gonna do it as 3ms dwell, as well, so we can see how good these bad boys will be for people with stock dwell tables. (which is probably 99.999% of us on the board)

At this point the lineup is:

- old 1.8T revision R coil
- new 1.8T revision R coil
- new 2.0T (MKV I believe) coil
- old 2.0T (MKV I believe) coil
- new AC Delco LS2 truck coil
- new random brand LS2 truck coil

I'm also going to send along a pack of NGK BKR7Es since that is the plug of choice amongst the non-hardcore on the board. All in all, this should be testing that would closely mimic most peoples setups, sans any boost obviously, and really show the potential performance difference. :beer:


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Just an update:
> 
> Bruce got back to me and thinks he'll be able to test all the coils for us by April. I'm going to be sending them his way around the end of March. He said he'll do the same thing he did for his LS2 coil testing... measurements, videos, etc. He's gonna do it as 3ms dwell, as well, so we can see how good these bad boys will be for people with stock dwell tables. (which is probably 99.999% of us on the board)
> 
> ...


:thumbup:

Could we get him to throw in a test of the D514's/D581 coils ( standard LS2 coils) as well? Some of thus have gone that route. Would be nice to see how they compare to the D585's at 3ms. He may still have these coils in his stock. 

Thanks for all your work on this Toby :beer:


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

my coils will likely be here friday or saturday. I'll work out where they will mount and then order up the wires. to the proper lengths.


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Chickenman35 said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> Could we get him to throw in a test of the D514's/D581 coils ( standard LS2 coils) as well? Some of thus have gone that route. Would be nice to see how they compare to the D585's at 3ms. He may still have these coils in his stock.
> 
> Thanks for all your work on this Toby :beer:


He seemed very into the idea of getting this data and sharing it so I'm sure if we have the coils, he won't mind testing them. Do you have a spare D514 or D581 to throw into the mix?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I might have some new 514s somewhere.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

:wave:


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

DMVDUB said:


> :wave:


At first I thought those were LS2 coils...but closer inspection looks like those to be Mitsubishi box coils. 

Those were apparently OEM on late 1990's Dodge Neons. ( Info from Megasquirt )


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Missed the delivery on friday and UPS doesnt deliver saturday. That means my coils come in on monday. Damn. I wanted to fab up the brackets and figure out where to place them.

Tobz as soon as I get the coils and fab up the brackets I'll get back to you with those length.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

This is an fyi to anyone doing this swap:

I took a 1.8t running uni830 that's been using ls2 coils for over a year, and tried the 220 ohm resistor between 2 and 3 to get rid of the cel for coil malfunction. These coils measure 10k ohms across pins 2 and 3. Again, this car has been running perfectly for the better part of a year on ls2 truck coils. 

Once the resistors were in, the car misfires like a mother trucker. Take the resistors out, and it's back to normal.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> This is an fyi to anyone doing this swap:
> 
> I took a 1.8t running uni830 that's been using ls2 coils for over a year, and tried the 220 ohm resistor between 2 and 3 to get rid of the cel for coil malfunction. These coils measure 10k ohms across pins 2 and 3. Again, this car has been running perfectly for the better part of a year on ls2 truck coils.
> 
> Once the resistors were in, the car misfires like a mother trucker. Take the resistors out, and it's back to normal.


You rule for posting this. Thanks man. :thumbup:


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> This is an fyi to anyone doing this swap:
> 
> I took a 1.8t running uni830 that's been using ls2 coils for over a year, and tried the 220 ohm resistor between 2 and 3 to get rid of the cel for coil malfunction. These coils measure 10k ohms across pins 2 and 3. Again, this car has been running perfectly for the better part of a year on ls2 truck coils.
> 
> Once the resistors were in, the car misfires like a mother trucker. Take the resistors out, and it's back to normal.


any pics of your setup? I'd love to check it out. Have you changed the dwell settings or left that alone?


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

For anyone on Maestro or getting custom tuned, getting the coil malfunction CEL turned off is probably easier than trying to **** with resistoring pins. :thumbup:

I'm working with spartiati to get him squared away with his LS2 coil swap so hopefully when he's all set up we can see their potential benefit on yet another car. :thumbup:


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

spartiati said:


> So I spent yesterday hopping around trying to find a wire set that works. The manager at Autozone was pissed I was behind the counter (with permission from the other worker there) and asked me to leave in the not so nicest of ways.
> 
> Anyways as luck would have it my neighbor just pulled up in his new car he just picked up. Honda Prelude with I believe an H22 motor. Lets take a look at the pics below.
> 
> ...


Regarding this, the honda civic wires do fit, but the seal at the top of the valve cover needs to be 5mm higher. What ends up happening is the wires push off of the plugs under load. It's bad a bad time. Been down that road. The solution is to use 16v plug wire ends or trim the seal boot off the honda wires. Also, the honda wire coil ends (at least the ones we used) do not fit the ls2 coil ends. You have to crimp them down, and even then, they don't stay on the coils for very long.

Here's the engine that's been running these for a year. It uses 034 wires (ls2 coil, 16v plug, 4" long) and d585 coils. It's a buddies car, and when I'm not around to fix it, it gets riced back together until I get a chance to do it the right way.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> This is an fyi to anyone doing this swap:
> 
> I took a 1.8t running uni830 that's been using ls2 coils for over a year, and tried the 220 ohm resistor between 2 and 3 to get rid of the cel for coil malfunction. These coils measure 10k ohms across pins 2 and 3. Again, this car has been running perfectly for the better part of a year on ls2 truck coils.
> 
> Once the resistors were in, the car misfires like a mother trucker. Take the resistors out, and it's back to normal.


I'm just wondering if it is the resistance across 2 and 3 that is measured by the ECU? I think it could be #4 ( D terminal or +12v ) and ground. I'll post my reasoning later but I have to run right now.

If measurement for open coil is taken from the D terminal and ground then it makes getting rid of the CEL dead easy.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

So you're thinking it's 2 and 4?

I spoke to someone a while back at uni and they said they can code it out of the ecu...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

It should be resistanve between signal and signal ground. I wouldnt try the 200ohm method it will drop the signal level a ton. 

Also stock ls wires are a no-go. Just no good way to get them seated on the plug. Magnecore time.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> (Snip ) Also stock ls wires are a no-go. Just no good way to get them seated on the plug. Magnecore time.


Don't quite get that? Typo? ls wires???


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Regarding this, the Honda civic wires do fit, but the seal at the top of the valve cover needs to be 5mm higher. What ends up happening is the wires push off of the plugs under load. It's bad a bad time. Been down that road. The solution is to use 16v plug wire ends or trim the seal boot off the Honda wires. Also, the Honda wire coil ends (at least the ones we used) do not fit the ls2 coil ends. You have to crimp them down, and even then, they don't stay on the coils for very long.
> 
> Here's the engine that's been running these for a year. It uses 034 wires (ls2 coil, 16v plug, 4" long) and d585 coils. It's a buddies car, and when I'm not around to fix it, it gets riced back together until I get a chance to do it the right way.


You can solve most, if not all, of the boot length issue by using BCPR7ES plugs which are JIS ( Japanese ) standard and 2.5mm longer than BKR series plugs. BKR plugs are ISO standard

It is a given that you have to snip off the coil ends of the Honda ( or most other leads ) and crimp on LS2 terminals. Not a big deal and part numbers and suppliers are in first post.


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## Maxpowerz (Feb 9, 2004)

are these way better then the 2.0t coils?


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Maxpowerz said:


> are these way better then the 2.0t coils?


Testing hasn't finished yet. Stay tuned on the thread to find out.


----------



## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Maxpowerz said:


> are these way better then the 2.0t coils?


Nothing conclusive so far but everything looks great so far. Im About a week away from actual testing.


----------



## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Maxpowerz said:


> are these way better then the 2.0t coils?


More than likely. Just not drop in.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm still excited to see what the 2.0t coils do on the bench. We know the potential of the LS coils. They've been used on multiple applications for years proving their worth. But the difference in the 2.0vs a GOOD 1.8t "R" or what other new revisions should be interesting.


----------



## babarber (Nov 3, 2008)

for those wondering if you can change dwell


----------



## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

ejg3855 said:


>





babarber said:


> for those wondering if you can change dwell


except my way doesnt require an $800 tuning software package


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Chickenman35 said:


> Don't quite get that? Typo? ls wires???


Ls1 wires I meant. I will try the longer plugs might make em work.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Anyone make any progress on their LS2 Coil conversion yet? 

Spartiati: Did you get those Kingsbourne wires yet. How do they look and fit?

Waiting to pick up my AGN valve cover from USRT. :thumbup:

Been crazy busy lately and haven't had any time for an update.


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Chickenman35 said:


> Anyone make any progress on their LS2 Coil conversion yet?
> 
> Spartiati: Did you get those Kingsbourne wires yet. How do they look and fit?
> 
> ...


I will be converting my setup as soon as it stays warm enough outside to let me relocate my PS reservoir and fabricate a basic bracket for the coils. I need to get some new wiring and what not because I'm going to wire my LS2 connectors directly into the harness and right back to the ECU with all new wire.... so that will take a wee bit of time to pull out, put in and wrap back up. 

I'm going to e-mail Bruce today since it's close enough to the end of the month, methinks.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Hey I got the wires from kingsborne. Definetely quality pieces! they.

I haven't posted anything yet because im still waiting on the adapters. Once those come in these are going to be installed. I've worked out that the coils will be placed between the intake manifold and the front frame for the time being. It may be permanent but I just didnt want to go crazy relocating the power steering reservoir or coolant bubble just to test these out. I'll readdress this at a later date. 

If I keep the coils where I am putting them now then I will likely run the coilpack harness down the driver side of the motor and the ignition wires between the runners of the intake manifold. That should complement the AGN valvecover (waiting for it to come from overseas and give me a nice clean look as well.


































Had some leftover wrinkle paint so why not... lol










If the adapters make it here by the weekend then I'll should have everything up and running pretty quickly. Crimping wires isn't exactly rocket science.


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

spartiati said:


> If the adapters make it here by the weekend then I'll should have everything up and running pretty quickly. Crimping wires isn't exactly rocket science.


Damn son... goin' hard up in this thread with these comments. :sly:


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Damn son... goin' hard up in this thread with these comments. :sly:


Lol. Didn't mean anything by my comment Tobz. Just saying if the adapters make it in then all I need to do is crimp the ls2 ends on the ignition wires and I'm in business!

I'll try and line up the 1.8t coil, 2.0t and ls2 coil side by side as well with a spark plug in each and crank it to see if there is a visible spark difference amongst the three. Crude comparison amongst the three ...


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

spartiati said:


> Lol. Didn't mean anything by my comment Tobz. Just saying if the adapters make it in then all I need to do is crimp the ls2 ends on the ignition wires and I'm in business!
> 
> I'll try and line up the 1.8t coil, 2.0t and ls2 coil side by side as well with a spark plug in each and crank it to see if there is a visible spark difference amongst the three. Crude comparison amongst the three ...


I got you, I got you.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I am waiting on custom magnecores. Coil mount is ugly but workable.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I am waiting on custom magnecores. Coil mount is ugly but workable.


Ugly true. But functional. 

Again this will be for testing them out. Ill revisit everything in the future when I see how everything pans out.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Steve: Got any pics of the Kingsbourne wires? How is the fit with the Prelude ends?


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Chickenman35 said:


> Steve: Got any pics of the Kingsbourne wires? How is the fit with the Prelude ends?


Nope. They look pretty solid. I haven't test fitted them as they look identical to the stock ngk prelude wire set. Ill double check and snap some shots when I get home.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Tobz got the adaptors in. They look awesome. Ill test fit them and get some shots of everything hopefully tomorrow.


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

spartiati said:


> Tobz got the adaptors in. They look awesome. Ill test fit them and get some shots of everything hopefully tomorrow.


:thumbup:


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Oh... and I also hit up Bruce again since we're at the end of the month now. Should hopefully have an address soon to send the coils to and then some data shortly down the road.


----------



## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Keep us posted Tobz!!!

I finally got around to dry fitting everything and mounting the coils. I forgot my crimper at the garage so I'll be crimping the ends tomorrow and hopefully getting these things running!

and some shots. 

Now dont everyone breathe down my neck. The stock coilpack harness will remain there for the time being. I will revisit that when I replace the coilpack harness and route it down the driver side of the engine (mines cracking alittle) ... That way the only thing visible will be the ignition cables.

Tobz thanks for those adapters!!!! Quality stuff!!!! I shot you an email about them. Check it out.

Kingsborne wires:


























coils mounted


























Ugly wires. After testing I'll revisit this as I already stated.










This is likely how the wires will end up. I am waiting on an AGN valvecover from europe so that'll be going on as well.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Looking good Steve! I have decided to go this route also, it's good to know that I have a local that did the work already. I am going to be using you for a final parts list and maybe have you come over for the install!


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Looking good Steve! I have decided to go this route also, it's good to know that I have a local that did the work already. I am going to be using you for a final parts list and maybe have you come over for the install!


Yup sure thing buddy.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

spartiati said:


> Keep us posted Tobz!!!
> 
> Ugly wires. After testing I'll revisit this as I already stated.


Juts a tip Steve. You should not run the coil trigger wires any where near the HT Leads. Even with spiral core wires, you can get EMI interference or cross induction to the trigger wires... and that will wreak havoc on the ignition system. 

I know it's just a test setup for now...but route those trigger wires well away from the HT leads before you test fire it. :beer:


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Chickenman35 said:


> Juts a tip Steve. You should not run the coil trigger wires any where near the HT Leads. Even with spiral core wires, you can get EMI interference or cross induction to the trigger wires... and that will wreak havoc on the ignition system.
> 
> I know it's just a test setup for now...but route those trigger wires well away from the HT leads before you test fire it. :beer:


Very good point


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Yup... that's why for now ill run the ignition wires the way they are in the last few pics and then run the harness cables to the outside of cyl 1 for the first two cylinders and to the outside of cyl 4 for cyl 3 and 4


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Ok everyone. Guess who got everything hooked up and running properly. 

First off Huge thanks to [email protected] I looked into getting all the bits and pieces to make my own harness, but honestly in the end of the day he provides a solid OEM looking quality adapter. I told him and showed him a picture of where my coils were going to go and he made them perfectly. 

So I cut the KingsBorne wires to length and tucked them under the intake manifold. Since this was still testing phase and I was going to do some back to back between coil setups I rigged up the harness to allow me to swap back and forth.

Initially I started it up and thought to myself (So it didnt blow up ... Things are looking good)

I initially left the gap to what I had originally which was .024. Did some pulls and everything ran great.

Got back home and decided lets go big I opened up the Gap to .040. On low boost of 15psi it was fine. Felt real strong. Flipped my MBC to high (24psi) and it broke up at boost onset and afew at higher rpms. I swapped back to the 1.8t coils and went out for a spin. Breaking up hard at 15 psi in the higher rpms with the .04 gap. Remember guys I'm running pretty insane advance requesting about 20 degree at 3000 and about 30 degree at redline. 

I decided to up the dwell time on the software via maestro to see if that helps. Brought it up to a max dwell of 5ms and went into the dwell vs load map and increased it everywhere by 1.5ms.

Took the car out and it ran better. Occasional Breakup at .04. I tightened up the Gap to .035 and it ran better; only hiccup when I decided to take the boost up past 26psi which I don't always do. At above 26 psi and a plug gap of .035 it broke up only at boost onset for a quick second and then screamed for that redline. Threw the 1.8t coils back in and it ran ok. Def had afew stumbles even with the increased dwell time (who cares if I melt a stock coil I have afew to spare LOL).

I decided to settle the gap at .032 so that it wont have that little opportunity to breakup at boost onset. Overall I am very impressed with this ignition system. I went the expensive route and got AC Delco D585 coils from Autozone, made my own bracket, Kingsborne supplied the 8mm ignition cable I crimped and TOBZ for the adaptor. The entire upgrade cost me around $300. That's with me spending 195 on the coils cause I wanted OE supplier stuff. Cost would be tons cheaper if you got the coils from ebay. You can get all 4 new for about 75 dollars. That would put the grand total to under 200 if you did it that way. I opted to get them from Autozone since they came with a two year warranty. Not bad! 

Whoever is thinking about this. Don't! Its a great modification. Especially anyone who is tracking there car. With that said you would benefit greatly from something like maestro to be able to increase the dwell to be able to utilize these guys to their full potential. I have a check engine light for an open circuit to the coils but I asked chris at eurodyne to unlock that for me. That should be taken care of shortly. I'll try and get some pics up soon.

Edited to add this last bit of info.
Stock ls2 spark plug gap is .04. Remember this is naturally aspirated. Even the twin Turbo Corvettes running 10 psi making 600+ who run a plug gap of around .028-.032 to not blow out the spark and have symptoms like I was having at larger plug gaps.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Wow, thanks for posting Steve! I was just about to start hoarding parts for this, but for me it would have to work at stock dwell as Maestro or an equivalent is not an option for me at the moment.
I'll be keeping an eye on the progress! :beer:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Good info!

What was your lowest dwell after you adjusted the map? It would be interesting for you to try 5ms all over.


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Wow, thanks for posting Steve! I was just about to start hoarding parts for this, but for me it would have to work at stock dwell as Maestro or an equivalent is not an option for me at the moment.
> I'll be keeping an eye on the progress! :beer:


elRey runs stock dwell, AFAIK, with his LS2 coil conversion, and I believe he is big turbo as well.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> elRey runs stock dwell, AFAIK, with his LS2 coil conversion, and I believe he is big turbo as well.


Not sure but I don't think he is on stock ECU?


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Not sure but I don't think he is on stock ECU?


Max they work perfectly fine at stock dwell. They are still stronger than the stock coils at those dwell times. 

Here's the dwell map That I loaded to the car. I basically went in and added 1.5ms to the entire map over what maestro had in there. 









Temporary setup for the time being. It allows for easy back and forth swapping









I didnt check quality settings on my phone when I recorded the video. You can see how touchy the throttle is. Was never that responsive.



Here's a stock d585 coil dwell table for reference


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

spartiati said:


> Max they work perfectly fine at stock dwell. They are still stronger than the stock coils at those dwell times.
> 
> Here's the dwell map That I loaded to the car. I basically went in and added 1.5ms to the entire map over what maestro had in there.
> 
> ...




Ultramegalike. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

I'd heat sleeve those wires. Good job on this.

it really seems there is no good place to put these coils but you did well.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

thanks man. Yeah it was either start relocating stuff or put them there. Not ideal but def cooler than sitting on top of the valve cover.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

spartiati said:


> thanks man. Yeah it was either start relocating stuff or put them there. Not ideal but def cooler than sitting on top of the valve cover.


Yeah, that is it. The bay is small, and full of heat. These are kind of odd sized too, the bay and motor were designed with pencil coils in mind. 

If you ever decide to and get bored/brainstorm i'd like to see where you hid them and what you do.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

For those of us who found this topic a bit over our heads, I think *this article* is a must-read primer.

Armed with the information I picked up there, I must ask: _does anyone have OEM dwell table information for these coils?_ Because that article points out the vast differences in dwell time specs among varying brands/types of coils.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> For those of us who found this topic a bit over our heads, I think *this article* is a must-read primer.
> 
> Armed with the information I picked up there, I must ask: _does anyone have OEM dwell table information for these coils?_ Because that article points out the vast differences in dwell time specs among varying brands/types of coils.


That link is going to fly over a lot of heads, but that is damn good webpage. The builder should be commended.

ls1 forums.


They have LS1 edit which is basically maestro -- but you know it works and is logical. Someone can give you Ls2 coil information as they have the same deal for all Delphi ECU's... 

Sure the same thing with a yukon guy that has a copy for his ECu.


http://www.carputing.com/


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> For those of us who found this topic a bit over our heads, I think *this article* is a must-read primer.
> 
> Armed with the information I picked up there, I must ask: _does anyone have OEM dwell table information for these coils?_ Because that article points out the vast differences in dwell time specs among varying brands/types of coils.


Doug see my post above. I included a stock d585 dwell table. It's the Dwell vs Voltage map but it give a decent depiction of what these do on a stock ls2


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Wow, thanks for posting Steve! I was just about to start hoarding parts for this, but for me it would have to work at stock dwell as Maestro or an equivalent is not an option for me at the moment.
> I'll be keeping an eye on the progress! :beer:


Don't forget about the increased reliability of the LS2 coils over VW COP. And at 3ms the LS2 coils are being under driven, which means that they will run even cooler.

And the stock ECU map can be accessed and adjusted. I just don't want to discuss it here and possibly get the thread locked. PM me for more details.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Chickenman35 said:


> Don't forget about the increased reliability of the LS2 coils over VW COP. And at 3ms the LS2 coils are being under driven, which means that they will run even cooler.
> 
> And the stock ECU map can be accessed and adjusted. I just don't want to discuss it here and possibly get the thread locked. PM me for more details.


I'm gonna venture a guess here, that the LS coils have a much higher inductance and will be stronger at any given dwell, based on the size.


http://www.ehow.com/how_5646890_measure-inductance-coil.html

Tons of other links out there. 

Let's get some henries on these coils...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I got a meter to read it, who wants to tear apart a coil to measure?


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I got a meter to read it, who wants to tear apart a coil to measure?


No need. All the info is already out there ( Thanks to MegaSquirt again :thumbup: ). Output of Yukon coils is a crusher *120 milliamps*. By comparison, the LS1 coil is 40 millamps...and that is still a very good coil.

" Need-A-VR6 " provided this very informative link way back in Post #22: 

http://www.megamanual.com/seq/coils.htm

Tons more info out there as well. Every good technical forum points to these coils as being absolute crushers. 

Bruce should be able to provide some hard core technical data soon.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Chickenman35 said:


> No need. All the info is already out there ( Thanks to MegaSquirt again :thumbup: ). Output of Yukon coils is a crusher *120 milliamps*. By comparison, the LS1 coil is 40 millamps...and that is still a very good coil.
> 
> " Need-A-VR6 " provided this very informative link way back in Post #22:
> 
> ...



Inductance. I did a quick word search, nothing on that in there.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

gdoggmoney said:


> Inductance. I did a quick word search, nothing on that in there.


The milliamps output is listed. Not quite sure why you need to calculate Henries when you have the output in milliamps.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Chickenman35 said:


> The milliamps output is listed. Not quite sure why you need to calculate Henries when you have the output in milliamps.


If you were planning on modeling the coils using standard circuit practices you'd need inductance, capacitance, and resistance. At these voltages, R,L,&C are all important factors.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

groggory said:


> If you were planning on modeling the coils using standard circuit practices you'd need inductance, capacitance, and resistance. At these voltages, R,L,&C are all important factors.


I'm with everyone else here. I'd just do real world testing of output instead of circuit modeling.


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Bruce Bowling just got back to me... I'll be sending him the coils in about a weeks time and then hopefully by the end of April we'll have definitive answers.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Bruce Bowling just got back to me... I'll be sending him the coils in about a weeks time and then hopefully by the end of April we'll have definitive answers.


Awesome! I'd love to see his numbers on our coils output. I'm very skeptical that there is a difference from the 1.8t to the 2.0t

Chris just got back to me so I can now have the new coils with no check engine light. Sweet! Ill try and do some logging today when I get home from work.


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## sabbySC (Dec 29, 2009)

spartiati said:


> Awesome! I'd love to see his numbers on our coils output. I'm very skeptical that there is a difference from the 1.8t to the 2.0t
> 
> Chris just got back to me so I can now have the new coils with no check engine light. Sweet! Ill try and do some logging today when I get home from work.


What are your driving impressions with the new coils?


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

sabbySC said:


> What are your driving impressions with the new coils?


I haven't done a ton of driving but it feels better. Now yes that is very subjective but I believe the feel is coming from 3 variables, each of which complements the other. I increased the gap from .024 to ..03. I increased the dwell also to use the coils to their full potential. So between coils, gap, and dwell increase the car is smoother at idle. Accelerating from a dead stop seems like its got a little more umph. I haven't really tested full throttle runs as I am limited by traction in 3rd gear and then the other issue is 4th gear from 2000-7500 rpms needs some highway room and by red line its 120+MPH. Ill give it a shot tonight on my "private course" if its available.

But overall I'm happy with the setup.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

sabbySC said:


> What are your driving impressions with the new coils?


Ask him again in 100,000 miles when he hasn't had to replace any :laugh:


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## sabbySC (Dec 29, 2009)

Chickenman35 said:


> Ask him again in 100,000 miles when he hasn't had to replace any :laugh:


I don't care about that, since you'll likely be changing plug wires instead. I care about performance only.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

sabbySC said:


> I don't care about that, since you'll likely be changing plug wires instead. I care about performance only.


Plug wires are only 45 dollars from kingsborne. 100k miles comes along once every 10 years maybe more since I commute with the train to work. Not bad I say.


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## sabbySC (Dec 29, 2009)

spartiati said:


> Plug wires are only 45 dollars from kingsborne. 100k miles comes along once every 10 years maybe more since I commute with the train to work. Not bad I say.


I agree not bad, but I don't mind changing parts as needed, that's all I was really getting at.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

FYI Jeff at Evans Tuning is blowing out some Delco coils for $100/set of four with connectors.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Good deal!


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Deleted...had a great idea for eliminating CEL light...then I had my coffee. Idea not so great after I had woken up :facepalm:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Pm me the details, I have some thoughts on this as well.


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## babarber (Nov 3, 2008)

im not quite ready to try the ls coils just yet but i did switch to the 2.0t coils. i went from .026 gap with misfires and hesitation on 6 month old coils to a .035 gap and the smoothest my car has ever run


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

babarber said:


> im not quite ready to try the ls coils just yet but i did switch to the 2.0t coils. i went from .026 gap with misfires and hesitation on 6 month old coils to a .035 gap and the smoothest my car has ever run


How much boost?


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## babarber (Nov 3, 2008)

spike at 22psi and drops to 17psi at redline


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

babarber said:


> spike at 22psi and drops to 17psi at redline


That's decent for those boost numbers. Hopefully they last for you. 

I'm liking Spartiati's .032" gap at 26 psi with the LS2 coils too. :thumbup:


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

How much timing are you running when you taper? 

Help me out with this. If you run really advanced timing like I am it would increase cylinder pressure. That's a given. I would think the more advanced timing you are running the stronger coil you would need, no? If so then I think that's why everyone is getting away with 2.0 coils and the gaps they are running.


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

You ought to also try modding your spark plugs to side fire. I mean... while we're trying out **** to make our ignition systems better..


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

spartiati said:


> How much timing are you running when you taper?
> 
> Help me out with this. If you run really advanced timing like I am it would increase cylinder pressure. That's a given. I would think the more advanced timing you are running the stronger coil you would need, no? If so then I think that's why everyone is getting away with 2.0 coils and the gaps they are running.


 Yes..advancing the timing increases peak cylinder pressures big time, and the requirement for a strong spark. I think SDS ( Simple Digital Solutions ) has a good article on it's effect. I'll see if I can find it.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

I can contribute this concerning these coils: I ran them on my 20/20t from the time I built it till I rolled it. They were a used set off a 2002 1500 Silverado that I got from the local junkyard for $35 with the bracket and harness. Running an MS3/3X for management and with the dwell set at 5ms I was able to run 15psi boost AND progressive water/meth coming in at 5psi with NGK BKR7EIX plugs gapped to .040" and never once saw a missfire. 

For plug wires I got a set of MSDs for a Silverado. 8 wires for $65


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

spartiati said:


> How much timing are you running when you taper?
> 
> Help me out with this. If you run really advanced timing like I am it would increase cylinder pressure. That's a given. I would think the more advanced timing you are running the stronger coil you would need, no? If so then I think that's why everyone is getting away with 2.0 coils and the gaps they are running.


 Cylinder pressure does go up substancially with increased timing advance. Add higher boost pressures and water injection to the mix and you definitely must run tighter gaps than what is conventional, regardless of coil strength. 

With the high advance that I run (your case is similar but a bit less extreme) what the recommended gap was for the car would just not cut it. Anything bigger than a .022" at the track (where I am sitting on the rev limiter for 5-6 seconds per run) and the car would break up at 33 psi. For regular driving .025 seems to work fine but that is a far cry from .028" to .032" that is the consensus. 

In your particular case, you would still need to keep the gap tighter than usual even with the better ignition. Just run the plugs on the tight side to account for your cyl pressure and enjoy the superior ignition. 

I haven't seen what you run lately for timing advance (maybe you can post it) but I barely run much taper on my car but again I have corn on my side!


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Prof315 said:


> I can contribute this concerning these coils: I ran them on my 20/20t from the time I built it till I rolled it. They were a used set off a 2002 1500 Silverado that I got from the local junkyard for $35 with the bracket and harness. Running an MS3/3X for management and with the dwell set at 5ms I was able to run 15psi boost AND progressive water/meth coming in at 5psi with NGK BKR7EIX plugs gapped to .040" and never once saw a missfire.
> 
> For plug wires I got a set of MSDs for a Silverado. 8 wires for $65


 Prof do you have a snapshot of your dwell table? I found area but they are mostly dwell vs voltage. Curious to see if you have any dwell vs load. My email is [email protected]


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Cylinder pressure does go up substancially with increased timing advance. Add higher boost pressures and water injection to the mix and you definitely must run tighter gaps than what is conventional, regardless of coil strength.
> 
> With the high advance that I run (your case is similar but a bit less extreme) what the recommended gap was for the car would just not cut it. Anything bigger than a .022" at the track (where I am sitting on the rev limiter for 5-6 seconds per run) and the car would break up at 33 psi. For regular driving .025 seems to work fine but that is a far cry from .028" to .032" that is the consensus.
> 
> ...


 I love corn! Too bad none by me. 

Max my car is revving happily to red line with a .032 gap. I'm running 24 psi and ignition timing advance at initial boost onset is around 17-18*. By 5000 its already in the 20's and by red line about 28-29*. Not crazy like you but good numbers for just pump gas and meth.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

spartiati said:


> Prof do you have a snapshot of your dwell table? I found area but they are mostly dwell vs voltage. Curious to see if you have any dwell vs load. My email is [email protected]


 I was wondering if you can just run 5ms across the board?


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Chickenman35 said:


> I was wondering if you can just run 5ms across the board?


 Im sure you can. I came across some dwell tables of the stock yukon coil. The one I had posted earlier in this thread was for the ls2 not the d585 coil. 

I have mine running around in low loads in the 3.6-4.7ms range. under high load it's running at 5ms and slowly dropping to 4.5 ms in the higher load high rpm range. 

What I am trying to figure out is in MAestro there are 3 tables for dwell. Well one is just Max dwell. That's easy I set mine to 5.5ms 

Then we have a dwell vs voltage table. I have a stock dwell table from a yukon. Awesome. 

Here's where the head scratching begins. We have a Dwell vs Load table. Which one does the car use primarily. Is the dwell vs voltage more of a reference as to the max dwell allowed at a certain voltage and the dwell vs Load is the actual one the car is attempting to run? That's the only thing that makes sense in my mind. Any insight guys? 



For reference here are the stock dwell times for the actual d585 coil 









These are the two maps available in maestro. I've tweaked them from what you guys see here but just so you guys get an idea. 


















Also keep in mind that the dwell of 5ms (peak output) is for a 12v charge rating. Our cars run anywhere from 13.5-14.4 depending on what you have running etc etc..... Running 5ms at 12V is likely closer to 4.3-4.5ms at 14V maybe less. Too lazy to work out the physics ...


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Here are some updated pics after yesterdays fun day... New ferrea exhaust valves and whats that? High flow manifold!? Oh yea!!!!! Also ran the coil harness down the driver side... I'll clean it up further when the AGN valve cover gets to my house.


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## babarber (Nov 3, 2008)

i have never seen that manifold brand b4... are you running tt225 turbo or the f23?


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

British Company. Running an F23 which is a k04 framed Turbo.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Not so fast there killer, you are trying to sneak up some parts on us here! :sly: 

How did you get that JBS mani as they only list them as part of their kits? Where are your pre and post impressions? I don't think you thought that we wouldn't take notice, even if you didn't mention. You sneaky lucky bumb...


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Hehe. No they are available .... no kit needed. Just installed it yesterday. Logs look good so far. More testing tomorrow. Ill also be playing with some ev14's and genesis intank fuel pump.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

spartiati said:


> Hehe. No they are available .... no kit needed. Just installed it yesterday. Logs look good so far. More testing tomorrow. Ill also be playing with some ev14's and genesis intank fuel pump.


 Making moves for this season ... Hmmmm! I have a few things up my sleeves too and can't wait to see some data on the manifold. I looked into them in the past but it appeared to be offered only in the kits listed on their website. Did you get it from them and do you have a link or something? :beer:


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Making moves for this season ... Hmmmm! I have a few things up my sleeves too and can't wait to see some data on the manifold. I looked into them in the past but it appeared to be offered only in the kits listed on their website. Did you get it from them and do you have a link or something? :beer:


 Go right to their website and order it from them. I placed the order Monday and had it wed. Not bad for overseas shipping.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

spartiati said:


> Im sure you can. I came across some dwell tables of the stock yukon coil. The one I had posted earlier in this thread was for the ls2 not the d585 coil.
> 
> I have mine running around in low loads in the 3.6-4.7ms range. under high load it's running at 5ms and slowly dropping to 4.5 ms in the higher load high rpm range.
> 
> ...


 Your table seems about right to me. 

The dwell table is a way to limit temperature of the coils to prevent overheating. So on the stock vehicles you only have to worry about voltage compensation and RPM ( X and Y Axis ). However, throw boost (load ) into the equation and that's where you get the 3D mapping ( X,Y and Z Axis ). 

Voltage is pretty stable, so that can be set once after the initial measurement. And don't forget it's voltage at the coils that counts..not battery voltage. You don't need to cut yourself short in dwell because your didn't allow for voltage drop in the factory wiring harness. ( Hence my idea to use a relay to feed the coil 12v line ). 

As RPM goes off the coils duty cycle goes up, temperature of the components go up and you have to add a minus dwell compensation factor to avoid coil overheating. Understandable. 

As for Load ( boost ) this you can play with quite a bit. Because of the ruggedness of the Yukon coils, I think you could easily add .5ms to 1.0ms under boost loads...and of course you could vary it according to boost levels. Road Race cars would have to be more conservative with this adjustment factor than Drag Cars. Hmmm...you could even have one map for street driving with conservative dwell figures...and a more aggressive file for the Strip or Autocross. 

Just don't go over a peak of 9ms. I've seen some EVO and DSM guys try that and it triggers a protection circuit in the coils that massively cuts dwell. Really no need to exceed 7ms from what I have read on cars running up to 40psi boost. 

Since these coils have decent heat sinks and are not sitting on top of the engine, you couldalso build a very simple and effective CAI for your coils. Done all the time on Endurance Road racing cars. They even have forced air fans ( axial ) to cool the coils. Note: Computer cooling fans = :facepalm: :laugh: 

You would have to look at the Maestro tuning for the priority of the Load factor. I would think that it would be a priority override as boost is normally a temporary figure ( At least on the street and on a Drag Car ). On a Drag only car you could be pretty aggressive with the Load compensation figures ( positive with more Load ) 

Note: Can't quite make out the Maestro 3D map in your screenshot...but it looks like it's behaving in that method.


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## babarber (Nov 3, 2008)

spartiati said:


> British Company. Running an F23 which is a k04 framed Turbo.


 yes i am very much aware that the f23 is a k04 framed turbo 

did you have the tt225 manifold b4 or were you using Doug's manifold.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

babarber said:


> yes i am very much aware that the f23 is a k04 framed turbo
> 
> did you have the tt225 manifold b4 or were you using Doug's manifold.


 tt225 ported


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

spartiati said:


> Prof do you have a snapshot of your dwell table? I found area but they are mostly dwell vs voltage. Curious to see if you have any dwell vs load. My email is [email protected]


 No dwell vs. load, just battery correction.


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## zooyork155 (Nov 10, 2003)

Plug wires from the 30V A4/Passat 2.8l fit the LS coils also.


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

zooyork155 said:


> Plug wires from the 30V A4/Passat 2.8l fit the LS coils also.


this is what's on my car at the moment.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

elRey said:


> this is what's on my car at the moment.


Any idea how those would fit in an AGN valve cover?


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## zooyork155 (Nov 10, 2003)

Should fit just like the AWW/AWP. A little loose in the plug holes.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Bruce Bowling just got back to me... I'll be sending him the coils in about a weeks time and then hopefully by the end of April we'll have definitive answers.


 Any word back from Bruce yet? 

How's your conversion coming along? 

I'm going to order plug leads this weekend. So hopefully I'll be up and running soon opcorn:


----------



## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Chickenman35 said:


> Any word back from Bruce yet?
> 
> How's your conversion coming along?
> 
> I'm going to order plug leads this weekend. So hopefully I'll be up and running soon opcorn:


 Awesome! Let me know how you like it dude. So far about 2k miles and afew autocross events and no issues thus far.....


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Not yet.. I've honestly been busy / forgetful and I need to build a flying lead for the LS2 coils this weekend then ship out on Monday. I wanted to give Bruce everything he needed to easily test the coils. 


As far as my conversion... I'm behind a lot. I need to switch to a stock tune and code out all the CELs and force the readiness for emissions stuff. I also need to wire in my new injectors... EV14 connectors wired brand new directly to the ECU connector and then do the same thing for the LS2 coils.


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Anyone know how far down in the main harness do the four 12v feeds to the coils go? Do they remain separate all the way or do they all join at some point down the harness? 

Valve cover is all painted and clear coated. Used SEM self etching primer, VHT Red Caliper paint and finished off with VHT Clear Caliper paint. Looks almost as good as powder coating. :thumbup: 

Main coil looms are all done. Just have to terminate them ( Deutsch connecters ). Used Techflex on the looms with Fire resistant sheathing over a section that runs over top of the Turbo. Same routing as factory loom that runs from POS ( AEB engine.)


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

12v splits right past #4 plug. A couple inches.


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> 12v splits right past #4 plug. A couple inches.


 Thanks. That makes things simple. :beer:


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Wow..just ordered plug leads by phone from Aurora's distributor ( Sudden Impact Performance ). Very impressed with Customer service. Plug leads will be ready tomorrow!! :thumbup: 

A bit more money than the Kingsbourne leads. Aurora's are $95 CDN. But they're local, so I can pickup myself and save shipping costs. All assembled, terminated to the lengths I requested and in 8.5mm ( Red ). Plus if I ever have an issue, they can replace individual wires ( or the whole set ) the same day. Lifetime warranty as well :thumbup: 

Sudden Impact Performance ( Aurora Distributer ): 

http://auroraignitionwires.com/ 

Talk to Gary. Great guy!! Phone: 604-309-4448 between 8:00 AM and 4:00 PM ( Pacific Time ) 

Might be up and running by this weekend :wave:


----------



## George Bush (Nov 13, 2001)

Chickenman35 said:


> Anyone know how far down in the main harness do the four 12v feeds to the coils go? Do they remain separate all the way or do they all join at some point down the harness?
> 
> Valve cover is all painted and clear coated. Used SEM self etching primer, VHT Red Caliper paint and finished off with VHT Clear Caliper paint. Looks almost as good as powder coating. :thumbup:
> 
> Main coil looms are all done. Just have to terminate them ( Deutsch connecters ). Used Techflex on the looms with Fire resistant sheathing over a section that runs over top of the Turbo. Same routing as factory loom that runs from POS ( AEB engine.)


 On my b6 audi the four 12v feeds go seperate all the way to the ecu box and then they are all joined and criped into on sigle cable, to the power relay.


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Picked up my Plug leads from Aurora today. Very impressed with quality...and the 1 day service :thumbup:


----------



## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

looking for an update?


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

ejg3855 said:


> looking for an update?


Coils are finally on the way to Bruce. We'll have some hard coil data in a week or two, hopefully.


----------



## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Coils are finally on the way to Bruce. We'll have some hard coil data in a week or two, hopefully.


Is he going to test different dwells as well as gaps? That would be awesome.

So he's testing:
1.8t coil
2.0t coil 
Ls2 coil 
Yukon coil
?


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

spartiati said:


> Is he going to test different dwells as well as gaps? That would be awesome.
> 
> So he's testing:
> 1.8t coil
> ...


He's going to test one dwell.. but maybe I'll persuade him to try both the stock ME7.5 dwell and an uprated dwell. I originally only mentioned the stock ME7.5 dwell of 3ms because we seemed to be trying to figure out the viability as a drop-in replacement. He seemed very eager to do this for the good of puiblishing the data for all, though, so maybe he'll be willing to do multiple dwell times. 

There is no gap testing to be done because we only really care about spark voltage. The maximum air gap for a spark, as far as I understand it, changes depending on environmental conditions so it's be a disingenuous test to equate free air spark performance to high-boost/high-timing spark performance. 

As far as the coils being tested:

- used 1.8T revision R coil (this gives us a baseline for our old, tired stock 1.8T coils)
- new 2.0T coil (MKV if I remember correctly... here's our baseline to see if 2.0Ts are really better)
- off-brand D585/Yukon coil (do we need to get OEM to get the benefits?)
- true AC Delco D585/Yukon coil (just another data point, mostly, but should be our top performer)


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Can't wait to see the data! BTW thank you for taking the time to do the testing (speaking for the rest of the community that may not realize at this point the value of all this). :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## babarber (Nov 3, 2008)

the class i run in auto-x doesnt allow me to use the yukon coils -_-


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

DMVDUB said:


> Ok... He does autox so... I've complemented the man several times on his setup and info. Don't try and make some accusation like I'm trying to start sh!t. I'm making a valid point if you don't get it im sorry about that.


I'm just making a point that testing period is what drives a lot of people as far as they manage to go. Just because it's not a perfect test doesn't mean that people won't find benefit from it... and Max is a key example of that, hence my reference.



DMVDUB said:


> If you only cared about the ls coils, you would just need to know the experiences from the rest of the tuning community. They've been used on dsm's nissans and toyotas for years... For a reason.


All which have a bevy of cheap or free aftermarket tuning tools... for a lot of people, they're stuck with stock tunes or whatever. Maybe some people don't want to shell out $800 for Eurodyne or maybe they don't want to pay an extra fee to get their dwell tables adjusted... or don't know the best dwell map to have. That is why this test is also designed with the purpose of finding out LS2 coil performance on our stock ECUs with a stock dwell. Some people are tired of eating coils but aren't tired of their tune... so being able to upgrade to better coils and be done with it is a legitimate use case.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> (snip)
> 
> All which have a bevy of cheap or free aftermarket tuning tools... for a lot of people, they're stuck with stock tunes or whatever. Maybe some people don't want to shell out $800 for Eurodyne or maybe they don't want to pay an extra fee to get their dwell tables adjusted... or don't know the best dwell map to have. That is why this test is also designed with the purpose of finding out LS2 coil performance on our stock ECUs with a stock dwell. Some people are tired of eating coils but aren't tired of their tune... so being able to upgrade to better coils and be done with it is a legitimate use case. (/snip)


Couldn't have said it better myself. Exactly the reason why I started this thread. :thumbup: :beer:

A huge thank you to all the members who have contributed to this project :beer::beer::beer:


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## 20vturbslo (Feb 26, 2010)

In for the updates from Bruce, great work toby!


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Updated first page with new links to Aurora plug lead pictures.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Any updates tobz?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

spartiati said:


> Any updates tobz?


 Steve -- would you correlate your improved highway fuel consumption to the upgraded ignition? Or only to the EV14 Bosch injectors?


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

spartiati said:


> Any updates tobz?


 Still waiting on Bruce to get back to me. I've been meaning to send him an e-mail just to see what's up.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Steve -- would you correlate your improved highway fuel consumption to the upgraded ignition? Or only to the EV14 Bosch injectors?


 More so to the injectors but the upgraded ignition def helps 


Tobz no rush just wanted to check in.


----------



## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Steve -- would you correlate your improved highway fuel consumption to the upgraded ignition? Or only to the EV14 Bosch injectors?


 EV14 injectors > * 


Was the tune and stuff like TVUB changed to match and were they mapped injectors with battery offsets and matched?


----------



## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

gdoggmoney said:


> EV14 injectors > *
> 
> 
> Was the tune and stuff like TVUB changed to match and were they mapped injectors with battery offsets and matched?


 Everything tuned to match the 550 specs.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I gotta fix cyl 4's 60psi compression before I go further :banghead: at least I know what is causing the miss.


----------



## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I gotta fix cyl 4's 60psi compression before I go further :banghead: at least I know what is causing the miss.


 That just means cylinder 4 can have that much more boost Paul!


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I think the intake manifold does that already! Hopefully just a hg as the plug looked a bit odd.


----------



## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I think the intake manifold does that already! Hopefully just a hg as the plug looked a bit odd.


 Wait, are you a 20v guy now? No more 12v/24v VR6?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Nope just trying to keep the daily fun-ish. Should have bought a 24v one this 1dot8tee stuff is for the birds!


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Just got an e-mail from Bruce. He has the coils and is planning on testing them next week. No rest for the wicked, I guess.


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

toby lawrence said:


> Just got an e-mail from Bruce. He has the coils and is planning on testing them next week. No rest for the wicked, I guess.


 Heard back from Bruce yet Toby?


----------



## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

Blasphemy!


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

screwball said:


> Blasphemy!


 Damned straight!! Some of us don't worship the VW Gods... Come on over to the Dark Side :laugh: :beer:


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## Dub-Nub (Sep 27, 2005)

Have we had anything new on this?


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Still waiting on results from Bruce. From all accounts, he is 24/7 busy status so even with his estimate of when he could get to this stuff... I figured we'd be waiting a while. Gonna send him yet another e-mail tonight.


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Month-later update... got an e-mail from Bruce today. He had apparently lent some of his testing equipment to a nearby university and just got it back. He's working through a backlog of other coils to test and said he plans to get ours tested on Tuesday.

As a refresher, I sent him a used 1.8T coil (revision R), a new MKV 2.0T coil, a new AC/Delco LS2 D585 (truck) coil and a random brand LS2 D585 coil clone that was really cheap.

I'll update again once I hear back from Bruce. :beer:


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

toby lawrence said:


> Month-later update... got an e-mail from Bruce today. He had apparently lent some of his testing equipment to a nearby university and just got it back. He's working through a backlog of other coils to test and said he plans to get ours tested on Tuesday.
> 
> As a refresher, I sent him a used 1.8T coil (revision R), a new MKV 2.0T coil, a new AC/Delco LS2 D585 (truck) coil and a random brand LS2 D585 coil clone that was really cheap.
> 
> I'll update again once I hear back from Bruce. :beer:


Good to hear. I've been wondering what's been happening. I can understand the delays though. I haven't been able to touch my LS2 setup for months. Just too danged busy with work and life in general :banghead:


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Do you guys mind moving the messed up car alignment chatter back to the original thread / to another thread? :heart:


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

OK.. it's been months but first update from Bruce: OEM vs rando brand LS2 coil. The OEM LS2 coil puts out a nice, clean spark... but the rando brand ones I got was super noisy and Bruce himself said it was hard to make out exactly what the secondary current was looking like.

He didn't send me any numbers (yet) but it seems like we should probably stick to the OEM LS2 coils (AC/Delco or even from the GM parts counter) for those of us actually doing the swap. 

He sent me some videos which are basically just showing the secondary current on his scope as he sweeps from 1ms dweel to 5ms. I'll try and get those posted soon. He said he should have the results for the 1.8T/2.0T coils tomorrow. :beer:


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

This is awesome


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

[No message]


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Chickenman35 said:


> One thing that I'm, worried about is this becoming another 1.8T vs 2.0 coil gong show. I'd like to keep this thread on track as primarily an LSx coil Technical thread. I'd still like to see the comparison between the D585's and the D514's at 3ms. I think Bruce mentioned previously that he had some D514's kicking about.
> 
> For the 1.8T vs 2.0 comparison, I think the results and resultant responses should be posted up in the post about the 1.8T and 2.0 Technical thread. IE: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5711235-2.0t-Coilpacks-on-1.8ts-Technical-Facts
> 
> Thanks all. :beer::beer::beer:



Completely agree! It would be nice to see how these (d585 and d514) compare at stock dwell times, as well as optimal (which we know to be around 5ms)


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

^^ bump for massive reorg into the thread

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5711235-2.0t-Coilpacks-on-1.8ts-Technical-Facts


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

groggory said:


> ^^ bump for massive reorg into the thread
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5711235-2.0t-Coilpacks-on-1.8ts-Technical-Facts


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

spartiati said:


> Im sure you can. I came across some dwell tables of the stock yukon coil. The one I had posted earlier in this thread was for the ls2 not the d585 coil.
> 
> I have mine running around in low loads in the 3.6-4.7ms range. under high load it's running at 5ms and slowly dropping to 4.5 ms in the higher load high rpm range.
> 
> ...





Chickenman35 said:


> You would have to look at the Maestro tuning for the priority of the Load factor. I would think that it would be a priority override as boost is normally a temporary figure ( At least on the street and on a Drag Car ). On a Drag only car you could be pretty aggressive with the Load compensation figures ( positive with more Load )
> 
> Note: Can't quite make out the Maestro 3D map in your screenshot...but it looks like it's behaving in that method.


 Sorry this is a bit late for the questions: http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=1670.0 

in short, the main map is rpmxload


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Here's some unscientific results I've had with the d585 on stock dwell time: 

1.8t, no vvt, stock engine everything, k03s @ 20psi, uni 830, stock side mount 
198 whp, 248 wtq on a mustang dyno 
ngk equivalent [email protected], ran like a bat out of hell 

1.8t, with vvt, stock longblock, custom intake/exhaust manifold, uni830, Holset hy35 @ 20psi, front mount 

bkr6e @ .028: great idle, good off boost performance, as soon as it was in boost, terrible coil breakup 
bkr7e @ .030: fantastic idle, great off boost performance, coil breakup approaching peak boost, but driveable at lower psi 
bkr7e @ .024 (testing): fantastic idle, good off boost performance, no coil breakup, then sent a rod through the block 

I need to get the ECU reflashed for 5ms dwell, and I think the 7 series was still too hot. Once I get a new motor in the car and a reflash, I'll be playing with an 8 series plug and bigger gap.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> I need to get the ECU reflashed for 5ms dwell, and I think the 7 series was still too hot. Once I get a new motor in the car and a reflash, I'll be playing with an 8 series plug and bigger gap.


 Pat, try these! I've had nothing but success with them, and so does my 500 AWHP E85 powered BT buddy that I suggested to try them. I experimented with 7s recently to see if they would help the warm up sequence on E85, they did but also show a nice bump in ECU calculated exhaust temp (not worth increasing EGT for a marginal improvement in start-up and warm-up). Extreme 1.8t setups with high cylinder pressures call for at least an 8 heat range plug to keep in-cylinder temp tamed. :beer: 

*NGK racing plug*


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Nothing makes my bits tingle in a good way like a


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Just a couple of teasers. Finished photos later ( It's 2:35 AM!! ) 

 
DSCN0125 by BlackBird SR71, on Flickr 


 
DSCN0121 by BlackBird SR71, on Flickr


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Time to get this thread rolling again. I've finally finished my LS2 coil conversion and have some interesting observations, which I'll post separately. In the meantime here's the finished product.

1: BTW...Deutsch connectors are the itshz. So easy to assemble and disassemble. 

2: Honda H22 spark plug boots are a *perfect* fit to the AGN valve cover. Coil ends are LS2. I got mine custom made from Aurora. Kingsborne and Magnecore can also make these ( Links on first page ) 


DSCN0135 by BlackBird SR71, on Flickr


DSCN0134 by BlackBird SR71, on Flickr


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Looks really good! :thumbup:

Looking forward to hear your findings with the conversion (too bad I can't do this per SP class restrictions).


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Ok...so now for some observations that I've found so far. Please note that I converted an AEB engine with the early 3 wire coils. This may turn out to be very significant as I am currently sorting some issues. *Edit: AEB engine IS significant. The 3 wire coils without igniters are set up to run MUCH less dwell than 4 wire coils with igniters. See posts below.*

1: I used D514 coils. In retrospect I would recommend using the D585 coils. Note This may change once I get some data back from Bruce Bowling and do some tuning on this system.

2: Grounding: *Separate* grounds for the Primary ground and the Trigger ( Sequence ) grounds are essential. I have my Main ground hooked directly up to the negative battery terminal. I have my Trigger ground hooked up through the factory ground that leads back to the ECU. This may not be correct!!

Following much research, I have found that Bruce Bowling recommends a direct ground to the engine for the LS2 coil trigger grounds. The Trigger ground and Main coil grounds MUST be separate...and preferably a good distance apart. * Edit: Main ground to negative battery terminal Cylinder Head and Trigger ground to Valve Cover seems to produce the best results according to his research *( Insert Linky).

3: Do check the 12v supply to the coils. Although Bentley shows the 12v feed to the main coils as being fed from Relay ( XXX ) there may be voltage drop in the circuit or a dropping resistor designed in. Any drop in voltage is bad as we are already short on Coil Dwell timing with the stock ECU. I'll report back with my findings when I get a chance to take some measurements with my DVM.

4: If you have an AEB motor with the 3 wire coils...I would hold off on doing this Mod. I would also hold off on doing the ICM delete and conversion to 4 wire coils, including MKV FSI. The AEB coils appear to be *MUCH* stronger than they have been given credit for previously. The ICM reliability problem can be cured fairly easily.

Note: I do not want this thread being derailed with 3 wire vs 4 wire VW coil debate here. I will start a separate thread for that when I have corroborated my initial findings with Bruce. ( Insert link to new thread here )


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Does anyone have the Coil Dwell chart for an AEB ECU ( 557 series ) with 3 wire coils? I have a feeling that it significantly different than the 4 wire coil dwell table.

Edit: BTW..AEB ECU's do NOT throw a CEL light when using the LS2 coils :thumbup:


----------



## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

I'm in the process of tuning someone with a GTX3071R. I am currently trying to persuade him to do a LS2 coil conversion (stock coils are having a hard time at 27psi). I will post results if this goes thru :thumbup:


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Thanks Gonzo. Your input would be appreciated.

I've updated the first page with Dwell maps for the Stock VW coils ( ME7 ) and LS2 ( D585 coils ). 

You can see how short the dwell times are on the top end on the VW coil map. Compare the VW and LS2 dwell times at 6,000 rpm. Use LS2 table at 12v x 6,000rpm = 4.38ms. Even at max load( 165 ) the VW table only calls for 2.40ms. Tweak the VW tables to equal that of the LS2 tables for dwell output, and these coils should be crushers for a BT project. 



Here they are for comparison: ( Thanks to Spartiati, ElRay and ejg385 )

Stock ME7 coil dwell:










LS2 ( D585 ) coil dwell.


StockD585CoilDwell by BlackBird SR71, on Flickr


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Now if we could just get someone to pull the dwell tables off of an AEB ME5 for comparison. I'd be really curious to see those. :beer:


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Excellent info, thank you, definitely getting this together for the build :thumbup:


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

Chickenman35 said:


> Now if we could just get someone to pull the dwell tables off of an AEB ME5 for comparison. I'd be really curious to see those. :beer:











Top = ME7
Bottom = ME3.8.3/5.9.2


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Top = ME7
> Bottom = ME3.8.3/5.9.2


Thanks Gonzo :beer::beer:

Well..that answers why I've been having misfire problems with the LS2 coils on anything over 15 psi. AEB coils ( ME5 ) use much less dwell than coils that use ME7 ECU's. 

My old AEB coils with 220,000 km om them ( Original coils and ICM as far as I can tell ) would happily fire worn NGK's ( BKR7E ) with 11,000km om them at an eroded .032" and at 18 psi.

Installed the LS2 coil conversion ( D514's ) and new plugs at .033" ( Stock NGK gap ). Huge misfires above 5 psi. Car would barely run. Re-gapped the plugs to .028" and misfires gone till 15psi. Anything over that and I would get massive misfires again.

ME5 dwell map explains it all. AEB 3 wire coils use much less dwell time than the 4 wire coils. Construction of 3 wire coils must allow for faster charge time than 4 wire coils.

It also brings into question the wisdom of doing an " ICM Delete ". IE: Converting from 3 wire coils to 4 wire coils. The 4 wire coils will want more dwell than the ME5 ECU is mapped to produce. But I don't want to carry that debate on in this thread. I'll make a separate thread for it.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Top = ME7
> Bottom = ME3.8.3/5.9.2


What's the table on the left for the ME5 Gonzo?


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Sorry for the lack of updates. It's been hectic at work and even after a month of being moved in... I'm still finding myself stuck on shopping excursions and grabbing things... it never ends. :laugh:

Bruce hasn't given me any numbers to tout around. Basically, from his testing, the LS2 coils are better than the VW coils. They have more output current. Current is what is giving you the thick spark that doesn't blow out. Not really surprised by this. The OEM (AC/Delco, in this case) LS2 is better than the knockoffs... so you should to those if you plan on doing this conversion.

The real beauty in the conversion, though, is dwell time range. The LS2 coils increase in output current all the way up to 5ms dwell. That lets you run lower dwell under lighter loads. This will presumably help you control heat generation within the coils and increase their stout life even further.. big reliability factor. The VW coils pretty much stop at 3ms dwell. As in... you can increase the dwell all you want but the output current stops going up... not even slows down... it hits a ceiling.

I don't have spark voltages or output currents to list... but it's clear: the LS2 coils are better.


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Thanks Toby. Can you post up the videos when you have a chance? Moving...what fun eh?:banghead::beer:

As stated, output current is the big factor. Aftermarket coil manufacturers starting getting away from the big output voltages and focusing on more current back in the early 1990's. Crane was one of the first to go this route with their PS91/PS92 coil designs. You don't ever need a coil that produces more than 40kv, flash-over occurs well before that. However, current is what sustains the spark and gives it duration. That is the big factor.

With the testing on my AEB and the AEB Dwell charts supplied by Gonzo we now know what the minimum Dwell specs are. ECU's used on 4 wire coils will work fine. ECU's used on 3 wire coils do not have enough dwell time for anything above 15 psi. The fact that I can fire the plugs at .028" gap and 15 psi at *25 percent of the designed dwell time* of the LS2 coils shows just how flexible they are.

I'll be tweaking my dwell tables soon, but for today I'm going to be playing with grounds and checking supply volatges to coils. I'll post an update later


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

Chickenman35 said:


> Thanks Toby. Can you post up the videos when you have a chance? Moving...what fun eh?:banghead::beer:


:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Here's are the videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SZAtr5V-dM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-YCI4u4WXs

First video is the AC/Delco coil. Second video is the cheap random brand (MotorKing) that I found for cheap. As you can see, the AC/Delco coil gives a quality output while the random coil is spurious and questionable.

Also, for posterity, here's a video of the VW coil. This is a MK5 coil - 06H 905 115.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR3enE7UsLA


----------



## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

He's still doing a 1.8t coil correct?


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

DMVDUB said:


> He's still doing a 1.8t coil correct?


He's working on testing one, yes. He had tried but was getting really inconsistent behavior out of the coil... oscillations, etc. The coil may have been really bad but it seemed to be working fine when I removed it from my car. Time will tell.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Let me know, I should have a new in box 1.8t coil I can send.


----------



## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Toby did he mention what the output is of one coil vs the other? Not sure what the scaling is on his oscilloscope.


----------



## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

spartiati said:


> Toby did he mention what the output is of one coil vs the other? Not sure what the scaling is on his oscilloscope.


I'll have to ask him.

I tried deducing it myself as well but he didn't mention the turn ratio on his current transformer so it's just a guess.


----------



## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Not that I am pushy. I love the fact that we have/ are in the process of getting raw data for our ignition systems. It would just be nice to see Vag outputting XX kV vs d585 YY kV.

I am happy that I went with the authentic ac delco from the start.


----------



## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

toby lawrence said:


> He's working on testing one, yes. He had tried but was getting really inconsistent behavior out of the coil... oscillations, etc. The coil may have been really bad but it seemed to be working fine when I removed it from my car. Time will tell.


That sounds like behavior that would cause erratic idle, weird boost building and a lack of smoothness on a 4 cylinder motor with no overlapping power strokes........... :heart:


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

spartiati said:


> Not that I am pushy. I love the fact that we have/ are in the process of getting raw data for our ignition systems. It would just be nice to see Vag outputting XX kV vs d585 YY kV.
> 
> I am happy that I went with the authentic ac delco from the start.


So, your post makes me want to address something that is mostly related to the whole "omg is this bettar than 2.0T coilz?!?!?!". I feel like people using the 2.0T coils over the 1.8T coils was perpetuated by two main things:

- the reliability, or lack thereof, of the 1.8T coils
- the consistency, or lack thereof, in coil performance

The LS2 coil is the clear winner for reliability. Wider dwell range. Heatsinking. Not mounted, unless you choose to, on top of the valve cover. There's really no question in my mind that these will yield you better coil life.

The consistency in performance is a murkier picture here. It depends on what you care about. People were orgasming over being able to open up their gaps in the 2.0T coils. I've yet to see the data of better performance quantified - I'm guessing that it's half placebo and half bad coils being replaced by new ones. Now, if you're worrying about secondary voltage between coils... I'd say you're probably looking at it the wrong way.

The secondary voltage is what gets you or doesn't get you to the given flashover voltage for your spark gap, cylinder pressures, combustion mixture, and what not. Now, in my eyes, trying to compare the voltages directly makes no sense. If you have a coil that only puts out 100mA at 20kV, for example, and another that puts out 50mA at 30kV... sure, you have 50% more secondary voltage from that second coil, but you have only 75% of the actual spark energy of the first coil. The spark energy is what is carrying your spark throughout the whole combustion cycle and keeping it from blowing out. It doesn't matter if you can jump the spark gap at 0.1"... if you can't keep the spark from blowing out, it's worthless.

Now, there are obvious caveats here.. like if the coil had so little secondary voltage that you couldn't jump a 0.010" gap or something... but I'm pretty sure that is not the case here.

I'm certainly not trying to dissuade anyone from trying to get hard numbers... you most of all. I know guys like you and Max and Doug are able to build your set ups BECAUSE of getting all the numbers in front of you. The wording of your post just triggered something that made me want to say all of this.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

I wonder if there's any way of calculating the miilijoules of the VW coils that Bruce tested. If he has a Current draw meter on his setup ( and I believe he does ) then the I think millijoules output of the coil can be calculated. That would give some meaningful numbers on the original VW coils for those that like to see numbers. Edit: Just saw that Toby tried to extrapolate that already.

We already know that the D585's put out 120 millijoules at 5ms...and that is CRUSHER!! 

Edit: IMHO..... the raw numbers would really be to just " satisfy" some of the more....ummmm... " pessimistic " members out there who just *have* to see numbers. ( Not referring to any of the members here BTW ). The rest of us can extrapolate the data we now have and draw our own conclusions


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

That was my point of asking for raw data. I already have the d585's. The data would be for the majority of the forum members who wouldn't undertake this swap.


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

So, what I gather from the videos is that the 2.0T coil has a max dwell resolution of 3ms and max 2nd current of just over 2 units on his scope. and the LS2 coil has a max dwell resolution of 5ms and max 2nd current of just over 3 units.

That's ~ 67% higher dwell resolution and ~48% higher 2nd current.


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

spartiati said:


> That was my point of asking for raw data. I already have the d585's. The data would be for the majority of the forum members who wouldn't undertake this swap.


I've asked Bruce a few times, but realistically, I'm not gonna hound him to give me exact numbers. It took long enough to wait for him to be able to test the coils alone. That was kind of what I was getting at above... if people are still skeptical because we don't have a recorded secondary voltage / output current / etc for the LS2 coil... despite the numerous anecdotal accounts... then meh, they can stick to whatever other fads they want.

I'm not against numbers, just against hounding someone who is time-limited for them. :thumbup:




elRey said:


> So, what I gather from the videos is that the 2.0T coil has a max dwell resolution of 3ms and max 2nd current of just over 2 units on his scope. and the LS2 coil has a max dwell resolution of 5ms and max 2nd current of just over 3 untis.
> 
> That's ~ 67% higher dwell resolution and ~48% higher 2nd current.


Right. Output current is higher but it's not apples to apples without knowing the secondary voltage. Honestly, though, we know the spark voltage is comparable because these coils have worked well for anyone that has used them. Just mentioning the uncertainty for completeness. 

The dwell resolution is definitely way better on the LS2 coil and gives you the ability to really dial in dwell time over RPM/load.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

toby lawrence said:


> Snip..
> I'm not against numbers, just against hounding someone who is time-limited for them. :thumbup:


Exactly. :thumbup: We can't look a gift horse in the mouth . That goes for everyone who has contributed to this thread. :thumbup: :beer::beer:


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

Also something to note from videos...

@ 1ms LS2 coil has a lower 2nd current than 2.0T coil @ same dwell. What does this mean? For those running stock dwell in 1ms areas you are getting LESS current. (AEB anyone)

This also effectively lowers the dwell _resolution_ of the LS2 coils while increasing the dwell effective _range_.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Chickenman35 said:


> Exactly. :thumbup: We can't look a gift horse in the mouth . That goes for everyone who has contributed to this thread. :thumbup: :beer::beer:


Let's pitch together a little fundraiser to send this guy a bottle of the bubbly stuff or something to say thanks. I'd have no problem contributing a small something to say thanks to him for taking the time to do this.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

elRey said:


> Also something to note from videos...
> 
> @ 1ms LS2 coil has a lower 2nd current than 2.0T coil @ same dwell. What does this mean? For those running stock dwell in 1ms areas you are getting LESS current. (AEB anyone)
> 
> This also effectively lowers the dwell _resolution_ of the LS2 coils while increasing the dwell effective _range_.


That's exactly the issue I'm facing ( Danged AEB :banghead: )


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

APR will be suing you in

3...


2..


1.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

DMVDUB said:


> APR will be suing you in
> 
> 3...
> 
> ...



Ssssshhh.....


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Chickenman35 said:


> With the testing on my AEB and the AEB Dwell charts supplied by Gonzo we now know what the minimum Dwell specs are. ECU's used on 4 wire coils will work fine. ECU's used on 3 wire coils do not have enough dwell time for anything above 15 psi. The fact that I can fire the plugs at .028" gap and 15 psi at *25 percent of the designed dwell time* of the LS2 coils shows just how flexible they are.
> 
> I'll be tweaking my dwell tables soon, but for today I'm going to be playing with grounds and checking supply voltages to coils. I'll post an update later


A bit of an update:

1: There was no appreciable voltage drop on the Primary 12v feed to the coils using the stock wiring. So I did not bother with an external relay. 

2: Main grounding of coils. Best solution was to run main ground directly to Valve Cover mount ( I actually used the Chain Tensioner mounting bolts ) and then a 10 gauge ground wire from VC directly to the Negative battery terminal stud. This produced the least electrical noise from what I can deduce. I ran the trigger ground back through the ECU ground as per stock configuration. Megasquirt LS2 coil articles confirm that trigger grounds and main coil grounds need to be kept separate and well away from each other.

So I've got absolutely the worst case senario possible. An AEB ECU that sucks with pathetic dwell timings and the D514 coils. Right now I have to run .025" plug gap with boost limited to 15 PSI...but initial driving impressions show much more responsiveness to throttle and engine has never ran so smooth. Once I can tweak the dwell tables I'm sure it will all come good.


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

I'm not an expert on older Motronic ECU's (I kind of skipped them and started on ME7) but if anyone needs help altering their dwell times or anything else, give me a shout and I might be able to help.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I'm not an expert on older Motronic ECU's (I kind of skipped them and started on ME7) but if anyone needs help altering their dwell times or anything else, give me a shout and I might be able to help.


Gonzo, with your ability to read and write ecu's, could you potentially post the stock dwell tables of the 2.0t? We all have the 1.8t but maybe we can compile what the early aeb 1.8t , Awp and 2.0t run so we have some comparison.


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## lorge1989 (Sep 3, 2008)

Not trying to start anything here, but it seems like a lot of this is not going to gain much when there are OEM options that cost less, and potentially perform better or just as good.

I have been running 2.0T ignition coils for 10k miles on my BT built A4. I was able to run a .044 gap on a 2871 at 25 psi and a 3071 at 20 psi. It wasn't until I began turning the boost way up on the 3071 that I had any issues. Currently running .032 gap and its running great at 27 psi. Also the ultra low emission coils from the California spec Golfs, offer an even greater improvement over the run of the mill 2.0T ignition coils.

Just what I have had experiences with, and I figured its relevant.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

lorge1989 said:


> Not trying to start anything here, but it seems like a lot of this is not going to gain much when there are OEM options that cost less, and potentially perform better or just as good.
> 
> I have been running 2.0T ignition coils for 10k miles on my BT built A4. I was able to run a .044 gap on a 2871 at 25 psi and a 3071 at 20 psi. It wasn't until I began turning the boost way up on the 3071 that I had any issues. Currently running .032 gap and its running great at 27 psi. Also the ultra low emission coils from the California spec Golfs, offer an even greater improvement over the run of the mill 2.0T ignition coils.
> 
> Just what I have had experiences with, and I figured its relevant.




The PZEV cars have a different coil part #?


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

spartiati said:


> Gonzo, with your ability to read and write ecu's, could you potentially post the stock dwell tables of the 2.0t? We all have the 1.8t but maybe we can compile what the early aeb 1.8t , Awp and 2.0t run so we have some comparison.


 Si :thumbup:

I'll have to dig thru and see if I can find them.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Lorge'

There's no comparing an LS coil to a 2.0T coil. They may be working fine but that's not the point. The LS coil can put out a STRONGER charge at a bigger gap, and may allow for some interesting changes in dwell.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

DMVDUB said:


> Lorge'
> 
> There's no comparing an LS coil to a 2.0T coil. They may be working fine but that's not the point. The LS coil can put out a STRONGER charge at a bigger gap, and may allow for some interesting changes in dwell.


I think the best comparison would be seeing what a tuned bt car on vw coils can make vs the same tuned car on ls coils. Tuning done by a good tuner on his software of choice.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Si :thumbup:
> 
> I'll have to dig thru and see if I can find them.


They're in the 2.0T coil thread, stock 2.0T FSI/TSI dwell tables.


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

gdoggmoney said:


> They're in the 2.0T coil thread, stock 2.0T FSI/TSI dwell tables.


 Then never mind :thumbup:


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## Euro Hillbilly (Jul 30, 2008)

Hate to bump up a two-month inactive thread but....

I just finished up my D585 swap. Car started up first start like always and idled great. Took it down the road through all six gears just baby-ing it to make sure everything was kosher. Turned around to head back home, punched third and all four coils misfired at once, followed by smooth revving. Now under any load above 50%-ish throttle position, the coils all miss, followed by smooth power. Threw the old coils back in and the revs just climb without fault.

Has anyone else that's done this swap encountered this problem? I'm not getting any codes other than the given four coil circuit codes. I don't have access to Vag-Com, so kind of screwed on that end. 

Setup is as follows:
D585 Coils
16v 8mm Plug Wires
New NGK Plugs (can't remember the part number)
8" VW-GM coil adapting harnesses
Coils are mounted on a custom bracket mounted 1" above the fuel rail

2003 AWP
Stock ECU/Tune


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

What gap and brand coils?


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## Euro Hillbilly (Jul 30, 2008)

need_a_VR6 said:


> What gap and brand coils?


Sorry: .036" and brand-new OEM AC Delcos straight from the dealer.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

That's way too much gap for stock dwell 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

If you do not have a way of adjusting dwell with the d585 coils you will not gain much. Also for anyone running 20-25+psi of boost you will still not be able to run these large gaps everyone is claiming. Whether you are on the stock or gm coils. I was running a .028 gap on the d585 coils with no issues at 25psi with increased dwell. After swapping cams I had to drop the gap down to .022 to avoid breakup at spool onset.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

I was blowing out at .24 >30 psi hy35. But its worth mentioning again, for a big turbo motor, switching to an 8 heat range should help as well. 

Thanks to Aaron for that tip.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> I was blowing out at .24 >30 psi hy35. But its worth mentioning again, for a big turbo motor, switching to an 8 heat range should help as well.
> 
> Thanks to Aaron for that tip.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


I've been running 8's for a while. They are a great option for those running high psi, 350whp or smaller frame turbos that simply run hot.


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

spartiati said:


> If you do not have a way of adjusting dwell with the d585 coils you will not gain much.


Didn't you have issues with your tune AFTER you significantly increased the dwell? If so, what were the me7 gremlins that popped up?


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Rod Ratio said:


> Didn't you have issues with your tune AFTER you significantly increased the dwell? If so, what were the me7 gremlins that popped up?


No issues. Just need to turn off the CEL's


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

To Euro Hillbilly. Re: Part throttle misfire.

If you look at the ME7 dwell to load tables you will see that the dwell decreases with load decrease. The LS2 coils do not need this dwell reduction. Thus at mid-boost you could run into a situation where the spark blows out, when it does not at high boost. But a .036" plug gap is pushing things. Gap them down to .028" to .030" depending on boost levels. 

I'm going to my friends today and we are going to try and change the Dwell table on my GIAC chipped ME 5 ECU ( AEB 557P ). It's a 440cc BT file, so I may not be able to report right away as I have to swap some other part in ( Injectors, 3 bar FPR and 3" MAF )...and it is bloody cold out today.

The interesting thing about the ME5 ECU is that it does not have a MAP sensor. Thus dwell figures are not adjusted from load...or so it appears. Looks like it's strictly RPM and Voltage compensations. I could be wrong on that, but we'll find out later as we dig deeper into the program.

BTW... I would not recommend an LS2 coil conversion on an ME5 ECU unless you can modify the dwell tables. The early AEB style coils ( 3 wire dumb coils ) are a fast saturation design and the dwell figures are too low to properly drive the LS2 coils.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Now here's something interesting that has come out of our research on the LS2 coil conversions. 

The popular 3 wire to 4 wire Bosch coil conversion with the ICM delete now looks like a really *BAD* idea.

No one bothered to check the dwell tables when this mod was made years back. If you swap in the later coils ( 4 wire ) with ICM delete...you are now running with an ECU ( ME5 ) that supplies significantly LOWER dwell figures than what the later 4 wire coils were designed for ( with ME7 ECU ). The result is going to be a less powerful spark than with the early AEB coils.

The AEB coils have always looked like a decent design to me. They are BEEFY. Much bigger than even the LS2 coils. The alleged poor reliability of the ICM has been addressed before. Keeping the factory air-box system with it's integral Heat Sink cooled by airflow is a must. CAI systems that eliminate the factory's cooling method for the ICM is a very bad idea. The heat sink thermal compound should be renewed every 5 years. 

My car went 220,000 km on the original ICM ( other owners at Audizine etc, report similar findings ). The 220,000 km old AEB coils could still fire worn out NGK plugs at an eroded .035" gap and at 18+ lbs of boost. Now that does not seem like a weak coil design or ICM to me.

Mind you, the AEB coils are not cheap...if and when they fail. 

I should also note that I live in a fairly cool climate ( Pacific Northwest ). Hotter climates may take more of a toll on the ICM. FWIT.


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## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

I only ever replace my coils once on my aeb car in the 200k that I owned it.

I think you're onto something


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

If any one has any further experience with the ME5 dwell maps can they post it up here? Gonzo supplied some dwell maps from an ME3.8/ME5.2...but I can't seem to find the matching maps in any 557P.bin files that I have examined with WinOLS. 

The Hex address would be very helpful. Also if the ME5 actually does use load compensation. It could be calculated from MAF and TPS signal readings I guess. Or the ME5 may not use load compensation at all.

I PM'd Gonzo some time ago,,but I guess he was busy. Any help would be appreciated. TIA :beer:


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## 04VDubGLI (May 20, 2005)

In for info... can't read right now


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Nuts...buddies E-Prom burner not compatible with pin-outs on the Generic GIAC chip. Back to square one.


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## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

Chickenman35 said:


> Nuts...buddies E-Prom burner not compatible with pin-outs on the Generic GIAC chip. Back to square one.


Send me a picture.

I have spare ECU's if you want to mess around.
Higher dwell times will not necessairly yield a performance increase, though.

Some newer 1.8T software runs lower dwell times. I suppose its to increase coil lifetime.


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## Leon mk1 (Aug 29, 2011)

spartiati said:


> No issues. Just need to turn off the CEL's


how can we do that ?
(maestro users)
thanks


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## audis3gr (Feb 23, 2009)

anyone know where i can find the bosch male connectors to make a harness for the ls2 coils?
something like spartiati do


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## [email protected] Performance (Sep 17, 2013)

audis3gr said:


> anyone know where i can find the bosch male connectors to make a harness for the ls2 coils?
> something like spartiati do


034 motorsports sells them


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## toby lawrence (Dec 12, 2011)

ECS or 1stvwparts also has them.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

I picked up a set of regular LS2 coils, Aurora 8.5 mm plug wires that needed some finishing touch, male LS2 coil pigtails, some bracket spacers and joined the club (Thanks Richard!). I made a holding bracket with some spare metal and mounted the coils on the passenger side next to the timing belt cover. I was going to use a VW to GM coil harness conversion, but couldn't easily find the male VW coilpack ends (someone should post links of were to source them). So I rolled up my skirt and hardwired the GM pigtails into my harness, not reversible but I don't think I'll need to go back to VAG COPs.


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I picked up a set of regular LS2 coils, Aurora 8.5 mm plug wires that needed some finishing touch, male LS2 coil pigtails, some bracket spacers and joined the club (Thanks Richard!). I made a holding bracket with some spare metal and mounted the coils on the passenger side next to the timing belt cover. I was going to use a VW to GM coil harness conversion, but couldn't easily find the male VW coilpack ends (someone should post links of were to source them). So I rolled up my skirt and hardwired the GM pigtails into my harness, not reversible but I don't think I'll need to go back to VAG COPs.


PS intake mani?? I thought you had DS? Looks awesome though :thumbup:


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Looking good Max. :thumbup: I'm betting that you've already talked to Steve about the modified dwell table he's running. Should work fine with both D585 and D514 LS2 coils. 

Getting anxious to see this new beast run. How far away from testing do you think you are? :beer:

Edit: Just noticed you have a square coil hole valve cover. If you have a round hole VC from a later motor, those Aurora leads will pop right in and seal as if they're factory made. Or maybe pick up an AGN smooth valve cover. 

I've got a spare AGN one now...but it's too expensive to ship cross border to the USA.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

suffocatemymind said:


> PS intake mani?? I thought you had DS? Looks awesome though :thumbup:


New year, so I decided to switch it for **** and giggles! J/K, I'm doing a 4" TIP with an intake that will feed fresh, outside air, from a dummy DS headlight cover/duct. Therefore, going with a PS mani is going to make routing everything more simple and efficient. :beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Chickenman35 said:


> Looking good Max. :thumbup: I'm betting that you've already talked to Steve about the modified dwell table he's running. Should work fine with both D585 and D514 LS2 coils.
> 
> Getting anxious to see this new beast run. How far away from testing do you think you are? :beer:
> 
> ...


Richard, I've been exchanging ideas with Steve throughout the conversion, but haven't discussed his dwell tables. I know from reading threads on the MS forum that their nominal dwell is 5 ms. I'll start with that at idle/low rpm and gradually tapering to maybe 3.5 ms at higher rpm. 

Testing will have to wait till it gets warmer, I have to fab my intercooler piping and intake first too before I can put the car back together. 

I'm the kind that really could care less about the visual appeal of things under the hood as long as it's solid and practical with everything else in the bay. For now, it's good enough (better than 2.0 coils contraption it replaced), but I'm sure at some point I'll want a powder coated smooth valve cover with the round opening to clean it all up. Thanks again for giving me a head start on doing this! :beer::beer:


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

Are you going to replace the stock intake manifold? I bigger plenum alone will yield some nice results I bet.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

18T_BT said:


> Are you going to replace the stock intake manifold? I bigger plenum alone will yield some nice results I bet.


Been on the parts list for some time, but it's still not fitting in the racing budget for this year (unless SEM wants to cut me some sponsorship deal ).


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I'm the kind that really could care less about the visual appeal of things under the hood as long as it's solid and practical with everything else in the bay. For now, it's good enough (better than 2.0 coils contraption it replaced), but I'm sure at some point I'll want a powder coated smooth valve cover with the round opening to clean it all up. Thanks again for giving me a head start on doing this! :beer::beer:


Yeah...I'm the same way. I like things to look neat, but I'm more concerned with function. 

BTW, off topic, but I just scored an awesome deal on a new Torsen Center diff for my 01A tranny in my 1998 A4. The old one was starting to have some issues. $145 new from www.shopdealerparts.com. Audi America was having a blowout sale on this part. Audi Canada wants $2,200 CDN for this part!!  

Plus it's the later upgraded version from 2000+ models, which are stronger. Score !! :thumbup:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Outfuknstanding

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Chickenman35 said:


> BTW, off topic, but I just scored an awesome deal on a new Torsen Center diff for my 01A tranny in my 1998 A4. The old one was starting to have some issues. $145 new from www.shopdealerparts.com. Audi America was having a blowout sale on this part. Audi Canada wants $2,200 CDN for this part!!
> 
> Plus it's the later upgraded version from 2000+ models, which are stronger. Score !! :thumbup:


Jeez $145, that's a steal... awesome score!


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Wiring done, and the converted coil harness tucked away under the manifold. :thumbup:


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## garytightpants (Jun 14, 2010)

i went through and read this whole thread, its awesome. I'm left with the question, if one were running maestro on the 557P ecu, would you be able to adjust the dwell? and if so, would gains be seen on 3-wire cars, or are they still capped at 15psi?


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

garytightpants said:


> i went through and read this whole thread, its awesome. I'm left with the question, if one were running maestro on the 557P ecu, would you be able to adjust the dwell? and if so, would gains be seen on 3-wire cars, or are they still capped at 15psi?


You would see no gains on AEB 3 wire coils or 4 wires coils by boosting dwell. All you do is create more heat and shorten the life of the coils. They are fast saturation coils and are fully saturated at 2.5ms. And I'm not even sure that Maestro can adjust coil Dwell on the ME5.92 ECU ( More limitations than ME7.0 I believe )

If you have read the article in full, you will see that the AEB coils are a very good unit. Very large and efficient. IMHO, superior to the later 4 wire coils ( which are physically too small ) . Swapping to the later 4 - wire coils is now considered poor advice. The reasons are all in this thread. ( Dwell maps different )

You do have to keep the ICM cool. And that means using the factory Air-box with it's very cleverly designed heat-sink, or designing a much larger HSF if you eliminate the factory Airbox and run a CAI. You must also renew the heat-sink compound. It can dry out with age and heat causes failure of ICM's. 

Now here's where it gets interesting, and where the older 3- wire AEB coils are really a big plus. . The best way to improve a coils efficiency and output is to increase Primary side VOLTAGE. A 1 volt *drop* in Primary voltage ( IE: 14v to 13v ), to a coil, can reduce coil secondary output by 20 percent. Conversely, a 1 volt *increase* ( 14v to 15v ) will increase Secondary output by 20 percent. It's all basic Transformer design and Ohms law. The bonus with increasing voltage ( over Dwell for instance ) is that Transformers/Coils get *more efficient as Primary voltage rises*. So a 20 percent increase in Primary voltage may only result in a 10 percent increase in heat. And if you have " over-built " coils like the AEB style...this can lead to some interesting solutions to improving coil output under boost.

Kenne-Bell has developed a very good package of Fuel Pump and Ignition upgrades for forced induction engines. " Boost A Pump " and " Boost a Spark " . It is ingenious and very simple. When a certain boost level is reached, Primary voltage is increased to the Ignition coils ( in the case of Boost a Spark ). The amount of voltage increase is adjustable, and it is only increased when above a minimum boost level. IE: Have spark blow-out above 15 psi? Adjust the Hobbs switch to turn on below 15 psi and adjust the Primary coil voltage output from 14v ( standard running voltage ) to say 16v ( you can go higher than 16v, but usually not necessary ). No more running ridiculously small plug gaps, and you light off ALL of the mixture.

Google " Kenne-Bell Boost A Spark " and you will find excellent reviews. Seems to be a well tested and reliable product.

http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Accessories_pg/Boost%20A%20Spark/layouts/boostaspark.htm 

The beauty of using this on " Dumb coils " ( 3 wire Coils with an external ICM, like AEB ) is that the ICM is isolated from the primary voltage input. So you can crank up the Primary voltage to the Ignition coil, while the ICM still receives the standard charging voltage.

Now the later 4 -wire coils ( With integrated ICM ) are a lot more complicated. The built in igniter " may " be isolated from the coil primary, but it needs further research. Depends where Bosch pulls the transistor feeds from. 

Scott from USRT is developing a system similar to the Kenne-Bell " Boost a Spark " that may be compatible with the later 4 wire " Smart " coils. Perhaps he can chime in with more details about the USRT solution.

Edit: The Kenne-Bell system comes with a 4 psi Hobbs switch standard. The kit was primarily designed for Ford normally aspirated engines, that had the Kenne- Bell Supercharger system installed ( low boost system ). Replace the standard Hobbs switch with an adjustable one, or a switch with a higher rating for Factory Turbo cars. Only boost the primary ignition voltage when needed ( above 10 - 15 ps generally ) to reduce stress on coils.


----------



## garytightpants (Jun 14, 2010)

Chickenman35 said:


> You would see no gains on AEB 3 wire coils or 4 wires coils by boosting dwell. All you do is create more heat and shorten the life of the coils. They are fast saturation coils and are fully saturated at 2.5ms. And I'm not even sure that Maestro can adjust coil Dwell on the ME5.92 ECU ( More limitations than ME7.0 I believe )
> 
> If you have read the article in full, you will see that the AEB coils are a very good unit. Very large and efficient. IMHO, superior to the later 4 wire coils ( which are physically too small ) . Swapping to the later 4 - wire coils is now considered poor advice. The reasons are all in this thread. ( Dwell maps different )
> 
> ...


Thanks, that's exactly what i was looking for. I already know that the 3-wire coils are a more robust coil, as long as the ICM is cared for properly, which is why one of the first "mods" i did was reinstall a factory airbox with a new ICM and thermal compound. I have no intention of switching to the 4-wire setup, I just like to ask questions in my search for 1.8t knowledge.

I will definitely be looking into systems like the boost-a-spark kit.


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## tedgram (Jul 2, 2005)

Love the info. Was a bright sunny day here today temps in the 20's ended up running my wood splitter. We have more days like this and I will be spending them in my garage . Lost out on a bid for a EFR 6758 on eBay last night couldn't stay up to 02:30 to stay ahead. Hope someone from here won it and the seller follows through.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Gonna bump this as a few members have been inquiring about LS2 coils recently. This is also in the FAQ.


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## dspl1236 (May 30, 2007)

*FV-QR*

Chickenman35 , have you done any modification to the ME5 dwell tables for those whom want to use the 4 wire coils?


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

I need to do this when ever my coils fail

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

dspl1236 said:


> Chickenman35 , have you done any modification to the ME5 dwell tables for those whom want to use the 4 wire coils?


No.. As explained in the thread, the ME5 is a bit of a PITA to work on. Eprom cannot be read through OBDII port. You have to de-solder the chip, read the chip on a Programmer, modify the files, Flash the chip on the programmer and then re-solder the chip or use a daughter-board. There are guys here that can probably do it ( ElRay, Reflected, Gonzo to name a few ) but it's become too much of a PITA for me. Plus I'll be concentrating on my 280Z when I get it here 

For the AEB style 3 wire coils, the Kenne-Belle Boost-A-Spark system is an easier and better option IMHO. The AEB coils are pretty strong and they don't seem to overheat.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

D585 have coils made in China. It's this a problem and better to get the other ls2 coil? 

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Gulfstream said:


> D585 have coils made in China. It's this a problem and better to get the other ls2 coil?
> 
> Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


D585 is the generic AC Delco number. They can be made anywhere in the world. Same with D514 coils. The D585 Yukon coils are a bit stronger and have the heat-sink on the back. That's the only real difference between the two part numbers. Do NOT buy LS1 coils. They are far weaker than LS2 coils.

Genuine Factory AC Delco LS2 coils are the best, but may be hard to find in Sweden. And they aren't particularly cheap ( OEM factory made coils ). Nothing wrong with used coils either, but again in Sweden, those are probably going to be hard to find. 

Most aftermarket brand parts are made off shore these days. It's what we have to deal with. Even big names like TRW, and SKF have Chinese/Asian factories. 

Bottom line. Most guys buy the cheaper off shore Chinese/Brazilian/Mexico made brands and have no issues. However, I have heard bad things about the Herko coils and ADP coils. Wells coils seem to be OK.

Edit: I did a bit of searching and best price I found for Genuine AC-Delco D585 coils was $157.92 USD for a set of 4 ( $39.48 ea ). Shipping & Handling?? to Sweden was around $52.00. I don't know if that includes duties as well.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ACDelco-Ignition-Coil-Set-of-4-Fits-LS2-LS4-LS7-Model-Round-Coil-2nd-Design-/131104588226?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1e867141c2&vxp=mtr


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Found some Wells brand D585 coils for $23 each. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Wells-Ignition-Coil-C1251-Chevrolet-GMC-Trucks-1999-2007-/151015495837?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item232939989d&vxp=mtr


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I buy stuff off eBay all the time so no problem buying these. Tnx for the tip. So I need plug wires and a harness. Mby I'll get Kenne Bell boost a spark as well.... Give them 16V on boost 

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

The coils themselves are very stout with out the boostaspark. I'd say give the coils a shot first and if you are still having issues after add that in.

You can also search my user name and check out how I mounted the coils in my build thread....


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

I'm not even sure if the Boost-A-Spark system would work on Logic system coils. BAS is primarily designed for " dumb " coils. You could E-Mail Kenne Belle tech support to find out I guess, but as Spartiati stated, the LS2 coils are really STOUT and it is doubtful that you would need anything else once you convert to LS2 coils.

Gulfstream: Don't be confused about my info to the previous poster about AEB 3 wire coils and the BAS. AEB with the ME5 ECU is a whole different ballgame. The AEB ME5 has certain limitations which the ME7 doesn't have. BAS with AEB coils and ME5 makes sense and is a reasonable Option. It ( BAS ) does not really enter into the equation on an ME7 with LS2 coils.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

BTW.. just a note on Spark Plugs. NGK Iridium fine wire plugs take less voltage to fire than their equivalent " Standard " plug with the normal center electrode . This is true of all Iridium fine wire plugs in general. 

I've reverted back to brand new BERU AEB coils on my DD 1998 A4 for testing purposes. I've been playing with plug types lately. 

I was getting a noticeable misfire at 15+ lbs boost in 3rd and 4th gears with new NGK copper plugs gapped at .028". NGK Iridium plugs at .030" ( .030" to .031" is stock gap out of the box if you check them ) have a barely perceptible misfire in 3rd and 4th...but only when I short shift the motor and really load it up. Zing the engine to 6,000 rpm plus before shifting and shes's smooth as butter at 17 - 18lbs boost.

If I gapped the Iridiums down to .028" I'm sure that the very slight misfire under high load would disappear. But right now I'm testing with .030" plug gaps and will keep it that way. May add a BAS if I ever get around to bolting on my BT setup. But that may never happen once my 280Z arrives :laugh:


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Thoughts on SPDI spark?


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

gdoggmoney said:


> Thoughts on SPDI spark?


Haven't seen any reports on it so can't personally comment. However, it just appears to be a programmable Inductive system with adjustable Dwell and Voltage capabilities. It is a separate ICM just like the early AEB's. You have to supply your own " Dumb "coils or buy SPDI ( SPDI uses Honda coils according to their spec sheet ). Doesn't look like it would work with VW/Audi 4 wire Logic coils and they are the weak link even if it could. A 4 cylinder kit with coils costs $732..which is a bit pricey in my books. The Electromotive HPX and XDI System uses similar technology for adjusting Dwell and spark duration. Nothing new there. 

http://www.electromotive-inc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/XDI_BrochureLR.pdf

Electromotive actually holds several Patents on charging Multi Coil Inductive systems. Ford and GM license their systems using Electromotive technology, although they don't use the full capacity of the Electromotive system. 

I really can't see any advantage to this ( SPDI ) over a LS2 coils and an ME7. The ME7 already allows you to tweak the Dwell vs Load/RPM Tables and the Dwell vs Voltage Tables ( Dwell vs Voltage has limitations. Apparently enabled only at low loads ). And you can DIY far cheaper.

All the talk about " Special " Plasma control and Ionization is just Snake oil sales talk IMHO. A normal Spark firing sequence starts with spark gap flash over, followed by Ionization of the air and an Plasma burn in the second stage of the firing sequence. Hell... a points ignition system still creates a " Plasma Spark ". All sales BS with hyperbole about special " Plasma Spark Plugs " and "Plasma Coils" in my books. 

Edit: Don't get me wrong. The SPDI system should definitely work. I just think there are more cost effective methods and I don't like the Sales pitch with all the Plasma BS. 


Regarding Ignition technical articles. A very good book to get on Ignition systems is:

How to build Hi-Performance Ignition systems
Publisher: SA Designs ( SA79 )
Author: Todd Ryden
ISBN-13 978-1-884089-72-5


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

BTW..I just scored a " lightly used " Kenne Bell Boost-A-Spark on E-Bay for $124. :thumbup: Hope I wasn't bidding against any members from Vortex!! :laugh:

When I get it I'll make a thread on install and results with my AEB coil system. I really think this will be the way to go on the AEB system.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Chickenman35 said:


> BTW..I just scored a " lightly used " Kenne Bell Boost-A-Spark on E-Bay for $124. :thumbup: Hope I wasn't bidding against any members from Vortex!! :laugh:
> 
> When I get it I'll make a thread on install and results with my AEB coil system. I really think this will be the way to go on the AEB system.


I am close to putting in a multi pin connector and testing the AEM CDI box I have sitting around. I have the same Denso/Honda CBR CDI 2 pin coils and would just need to wire it all up. Maybe this weekend for grins.

It came from the "mil spec" harness and was completely wired wrong :|


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

gdoggmoney said:


> I am close to putting in a multi pin connector and testing the AEM CDI box I have sitting around. I have the same Denso/Honda CBR CDI 2 pin coils and would just need to wire it all up. Maybe this weekend for grins.
> 
> It came from the "mil spec" harness and was completely wired wrong :|


The AEM CDI box is supposed to be a good piece. Good Luck with that. :beer:

One thing about CDI boxes. They do not require a variable dwell map from the ECU like an Induction coils system. Usually only a constant dwell to act as a Trigger. Check with AEM to see what that figure is. Probably around 2.0 to 2.5 ms. If it runs fine with the stock 1.8T Dwell table, leave it alone. But if you have issues, you may want to Re-Map the ME7 dwell table to be a constant across all used Cell ranges.

I found this out on my MSD-DIS4. It is designed for a 2.5ms constant dwell. Unfortunately my ME5 only supplied 2.0ms or less, and it became an issue. Took me a while to figure this out as MSD does not list the 2.5 ms requirement ANYWHERE in their literature and MSD Tech Line was absolutely useless. When the MSD did work the car pulled like a Train. Tested free air gap was .500" !!!


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

This needs to be at the top!


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

woodywoods86 said:


> This needs to be at the top!


no doubt :banghead:


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

DMVDUB said:


> no doubt :banghead:


FYI, Only posts by a moderator or a sponsor can be stickied.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

groggory said:


> FYI, Only posts by a moderator or a sponsor can be stickied.


...and it is in the awesome 1.8T FAQ :thumbup::beer:


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Chickenman35 said:


> ...and it is in the awesome 1.8T FAQ :thumbup::beer:


Of course! Way too awesome a thread to not be referenced.

How do I buy you a beer?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

groggory said:


> FYI, Only posts by a moderator or a sponsor can be stickied.


I've seen exceptions! I agree, Richard deserves some beers for his contributions to the community (not just this thread). :beer: :beer:


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I've seen exceptions! I agree, Richard deserves some beers for his contributions to the community (not just this thread). :beer: :beer:


New management is pretty strict on this policy these days.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

groggory said:


> Of course! Way too awesome a thread to not be referenced.
> 
> How do I buy you a beer?


Well I may be down in San Diego for the Z-Con in August with my 280z when it gets here. Plan to do some long distance Cruising this Summer. I just might have to pop in to say Hello :wave:

Audi A4 has started to behave itself. Might decide to keep her after all. Must have gotten wind that I have a new Mistress coming.... :laugh:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

280z you say...  <---- I want mine back!!!!


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

These appear to be D585 coils and mercury marine coils (the hottest coils available apparently.)










http://www.aemelectronics.com/high-output-inductive-dumb-coil-1239









http://www.aemelectronics.com/ignit...rt-coil-63/?osCsid=rblmravnq3shaa3k5c3og17gd3





The AEM CDI says mercury marine coils will blow it. The M&W (iirc that is the name!) will run them and other high dollar CDI units will run the dumb coils. I'ts 5:30am and I am retarded :x


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## jstnGTI (Jan 30, 2012)

How do we feel about, "factory second" AC Delco d585 coils? 

My only concern is, while they're still AC Delco, they will perform like the off-brand that produced sketchy results when tested on the machine. 

Not looking for "factory second" testing data, just looking for opinions / experience with this sort of thing.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

jstnGTI said:


> How do we feel about, "factory second" AC Delco d585 coils?
> 
> My only concern is, while they're still AC Delco, they will perform like the off-brand that produced sketchy results when tested on the machine.
> 
> Not looking for "factory second" testing data, just looking for opinions / experience with this sort of thing.


A few people have commented on running used factory AC Delco coils. Consensus was that the danged things last for ever and is supported by the fact that the Yukon/Suburban is ranked as one of the top 3 reliable vehicles in the industry ( #2 to Ford F250 in recent Consumer Reports). Another factor in their reliability is the fact they they are starting to cost a LOT more from the Auto Wreckers, as enthusiasts from all different motorsport venues start snapping used ones up. Lots of success stories out there with used LS2 coils from many different forums.

I wouldn't hesitate a second in buying a used OEM set if you can get them at a good price. GL :beer:


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## jstnGTI (Jan 30, 2012)

Chickenman35 said:


> A few people have commented on running used factory AC Delco coils. Consensus was that the danged things last for ever and is supported by the fact that the Yukon/Suburban is ranked as one of the top 3 reliable vehicles in the industry ( #2 to Ford F250 in recent Consumer Reports). Another factor in their reliability is the fact they they are starting to cost a LOT more from the Auto Wreckers, as enthusiasts from all different motorsport venues start snapping used ones up. Lots of success stories out there with used LS2 coils from many different forums.
> 
> I wouldn't hesitate a second in buying a used OEM set if you can get them at a good price. GL :beer:


Thanks for the feedback! I actually read the entire thread on a day or two. The coils are technically new, but they have "cosmetic blemishes." i also looked up the technical definition of factory second and it pretty much translates to AC DELCO denying them from the manufacturer because of the quality. 

I'm going to call the customer service number on the ad, and see what they have to say about it. If I end up purchasing from them, I'll leave some feedback when I get the product to and a link to the item for future customers. They're $20 a peice!

EDIT. Went through with the purchase. Called the customer support and was reassured they're AC Delco coils, with cosmetic blemishes by the way they were stored. They're also warranted for 12 months and they take them back for a refund if they don't work. 4 coils, $80. Awesome.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

jstnGTI said:


> Thanks for the feedback! I actually read the entire thread on a day or two. The coils are technically new, but they have "cosmetic blemishes." i also looked up the technical definition of factory second and it pretty much translates to AC DELCO denying them from the manufacturer because of the quality.
> 
> I'm going to call the customer service number on the ad, and see what they have to say about it. If I end up purchasing from them, I'll leave some feedback when I get the product to and a link to the item for future customers. They're $20 a peice!
> 
> EDIT. Went through with the purchase. Called the customer support and was reassured they're AC Delco coils, with cosmetic blemishes by the way they were stored. They're also warranted for 12 months and they take them back for a refund if they don't work. 4 coils, $80. Awesome.


Sounds like you scored a great deal. :thumbup: Maybe post the link right away in case others want to jump on the wagon before they all disappear. How limited is the supply? :beer:


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## jstnGTI (Jan 30, 2012)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400688352358

Hopefully that link works. Says there's more than 10 available. 

Do you know if it's possible to find the spark plug leads by themselves? I'm thinking about building my own wire set with 8.5mm MSD wired and LS2 coil boots, but I can't seem to find the missing peice. 

Said 8.5mm MSD wire - 6ft
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-34039/overview/

Set of 10 ls2 coil boots 
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TAY-46069/

Sweet DIY I found for making your own wires http://www.rx8club.com/series-ii-diy-161/diy-ls2-spark-plug-wires-231080/?styleid=17

Could maybe utilize the screw holes on the valve cover that people use for spacers to create something to seal the wires in. 

do something like this with 180 degree spark plug boots.


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## jstnGTI (Jan 30, 2012)

In the image linked on the first page, there are good dimensions for the spark plug leads. 

25mm sealing diameter
127mm length from top sealing ring to bottom of the boot.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

jstnGTI said:


> In the image linked on the first page, there are good dimensions for the spark plug leads.
> 
> 25mm sealing diameter
> 127mm length from top sealing ring to bottom of the boot.


MSD does not make proper plug well sealing boots for the Honda H22 motor. MSD uses a generic straight boot that leaves a gap. If you order from any of the other suppliers you can get the proper Honda plug well boots that seal properly . I would phone Kingsborne for the best price.

This is a picture of my custom leads made by Aurora. Link was in first post. Kingsborne does similar work as does Magnacore. 










Edit: I think I'll add the above picture to the introduction post.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

If anyone is interested I have some 8.5mm msd wire, summit racing crimper and some coil ends if someone wants to make their own wires...


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

spartiati said:


> If anyone is interested I have some 8.5mm msd wire, summit racing crimper and some coil ends if someone wants to make their own wires...


" silveratljetta " might be interested. Give him a PM.


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

spartiati said:


> If anyone is interested I have some 8.5mm msd wire, summit racing crimper and some coil ends if someone wants to make their own wires...


What is 8.5mm wire going to yield you over 7mm wire?


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

woodywoods86 said:


> What is 8.5mm wire going to yield you over 7mm wire?


technically lower resistance assuming the same quality of wire between the two


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

jstnGTI said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/400688352358
> 
> Hopefully that link works. Says there's more than 10 available.


I also ordered 4 of those over the weekend. Will report on quality when they arrive this week. For wires I plan to have custom 7mm wires made by kingsborne. Seems to be the best bang for the buck.

Last issue will be swapping to the GM wiring harness connectors. I have not decided how I plan to do that yet. Toby hasnt responded to my PM so it looks like the soldering iron will be coming out to play again.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

formerly silveratljetta said:


> technically lower resistance assuming the same quality of wire between the two


Not really. The outside diameter of the silicone insulation has no actual bearing on the inner core resistance. The inner core resistance is dictated more by the number of turns per inch of the helical wiring and the wire type used. And an ultra low resistance is not necessarily a good thing as the Magnacore articles ( and NGK and Aurora ) explain. 

The difference in diameter of the wiring is due to more insulation. Debatable as to whether it is necessary on a DD as NGK makes some very high quality wires in 7mm. And the NGK 7mm silicone leads smell like Bubble Gum. Yummy!! On the flip side, big fat red wires will apparently get you laid according to some Big Name Plug Lead marketing departments... :laugh: 

Magnacore has some good technical no BS articles on the various " qualities " of Helical wires as does Aurora. I'll see if I can find the links.

Magnacore tech articles. Some very good info:

http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/main.htm

Ignition wire conductor technical info:

http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/truth.htm

Aurora Tech articles:

http://www.auror****ctronics.com/Understanding%20Spark%20Plug%20Wires.htm


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## jstnGTI (Jan 30, 2012)

spartiati said:


> If anyone is interested I have some 8.5mm msd wire, summit racing crimper and some coil ends if someone wants to make their own wires...


Interested, if I could find the proper spark plug boots without wires. I might have to make a couple phone calls. Websites aren't of much help as far as product catalogs. If someone could post a link that made their own, that'd be $$$. 



woodywoods86 said:


> What is 8.5mm wire going to yield you over 7mm wire?





Chickenman35 said:


> The difference in diameter of the wiring is due to more insulation


^ this. Supposed to provide more protection against interference, more insulation... Etc. 



> On the flip side, big fat red wires will apparently get
> you laid according to some Big Name Plug Lead marketing departments... :laugh:


aaaand this. haahahaha


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

http://i.imgur.com/QA7jUct.jpg

I think they're ford wires. I'll have to double check. Roughly 6" long, fit ls2 could and (barely). The 20v head. With some 1.5" spacers from McMaster, you get this.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

I have an old set of spark plug wires off of my moms Honda. I'm sure you could probably take them apart and install with the new wires and whatnot... PM me and we'll discuss things further. I'll take some pics as well..


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Civic plug ends fit but need a different coil end. It doesn't fit the ls2s worth a damn


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Civic plug ends fit but need a different coil end. It doesn't fit the ls2s worth a damn


Thought that was perfectly clear?? :beer: :laugh:


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

jstnGTI said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/400688352358


Thanks for this definitely pulled the trigger on 4 four yesterday. There was a 5.3L Suburban in the junkyard that got cleaned out in a matter hours that I missed out on . 



Chickenman35 said:


> Not really. The outside diameter of the silicone insulation has no actual bearing on the inner core resistance. The inner core resistance is dictated more by the number of turns per inch of the helical wiring and the wire type used. And an ultra low resistance is not necessarily a good thing as the Magnacore articles ( and NGK and Aurora ) explain.
> 
> The difference in diameter of the wiring is due to more insulation. Debatable as to whether it is necessary on a DD as NGK makes some very high quality wires in 7mm. And the NGK 7mm silicone leads smell like Bubble Gum. Yummy!! On the flip side, big fat red wires will apparently get you laid according to some Big Name Plug Lead marketing departments... :laugh:
> 
> ...


Appreciate the info! I am headed to a Yard today so if anyone wants some Honda wires I can grab some, I seen quite a bit lately. I have left them until I had a full understanding of this setup.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Chickenman35 said:


> Thought that was perfectly clear?? :beer: :laugh:


I must have misread. I thought someone said they were going to try a different set of Honda wires. Maybe they meant re-crimp the coil end.

I'm still trying to find the info on my wires. 8.5mm, perfect fit, and I $75ish for 8.


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## ramone23456 (Dec 29, 2009)

woodywoods86 said:


> Thanks for this definitely pulled the trigger on 4 four yesterday. There was a 5.3L Suburban in the junkyard that got cleaned out in a matter hours that I missed out on .
> 
> 
> 
> Appreciate the info! I am headed to a Yard today so if anyone wants some Honda wires I can grab some, I seen quite a bit lately. I have left them until I had a full understanding of this setup.


I pulled the trigger on 4 myself. Let me know how that Honda wire search goes.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Stop looking at Honda wires. Forget custom wires...

http://m.summitracing.com/parts/tay-79210

Taylor 79210. 6" long. 90 degree boot ends. 10.4mm diameter *$80 for eight*. Fits without modification.


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Stop looking at Honda wires. Forget custom wires...
> 
> http://m.summitracing.com/parts/tay-79210
> 
> Taylor 79210. 6" long. 90 degree boot ends. 10.4mm diameter *$80 for eight*. Fits without modification.


6 inches doesnt leave much options for coil mounting


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Stop looking at Honda wires. Forget custom wires...
> 
> http://m.summitracing.com/parts/tay-79210
> 
> Taylor 79210. 6" long. 90 degree boot ends. 10.4mm diameter *$80 for eight*. Fits without modification.


Hmmm..... interesting. Thanks Pat. Are the coil ends correct as well? LS2 coils use a proprietory coil terminal that is smaller than a normal HEI terminal.. HEI terminal is is 6.33mm in diameter. LS2 terminal is approx 4.5mm in diameter. What year and model of Dodge do these come on? Edit: 2003 - 2005 Dodge Hemi. But if it is an HEI coil terminal end the diameter may not be right. 

6" may not be long enough for some people. Some guys want to get the coils away from the engine Valve Cover and heat. I moved mine to the firewall on my A4 longitudinal. Much cooler there. I could have moved them to the far Intake side if I removed a W'Wash bottle. Honda H22 has nice long leads which gives more options for mounting coils. And they are cheap and plentiful. LS2 ends are pretty cheap from Kingsborne and other sources. 

Spartiati got custom made 8mm Spiral core wire with Honda Plug Boots ( perfect fit on VW/Audi 1.8T ) with LS2 coil ends for $45 from Kingsborne.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

The coil ends snap on tight. Works perfect. With 1.5" aluminum spacers from McMaster, you can bolt them down right on to the valve cover. Ends up just like the 034 conversion for about 150 total.

I don't see a reason to move the coils, but for those who like to put their turbine housing practically on top of the valve cover, I guess it makes sense, but those people are screwy.


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> The coil ends snap on tight. Works perfect. With 1.5" aluminum spacers from McMaster, you can bolt them down right on to the valve cover. Ends up just like the 034 conversion for about 150 total.
> 
> I don't see a reason to move the coils, but for those who like to put their turbine housing practically on top of the valve cover, I guess it makes sense, but those people are screwy.


Good to know that the coil ends fit properly. I was typing while you were, so we may have some crossed wires LOL

On a Traverse engine relocating the coils and the electrical harness to the much cooler Intake side makes a lot of sense to me. Even on stock Transverse configurations the ignition harness gets baked to a crisp. Longitudinal engines run a much cooler engine bay, but even then there are advantages to relocating coils to a cooler area. But to each his own. Good to know those wires work as well. :beer:

FWIW, Taylor wouldn't be my first choice in wires from past experiences.... but that's just me.


----------



## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Harness to intake side, like my picture, absolutely. I thought you meant relocating all the coils to (say) the airbox area.

:thumbsup:


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Harness to intake side, like my picture, absolutely. I thought you meant relocating all the coils to (say) the airbox area.
> 
> :thumbsup:


I am going the custom kings borne route as soon as the coils arrive.


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

formerly silveratljetta said:


> I am going the custom kings borne route as soon as the coils arrive.


$45 for Kingsborne custom wires sounds like a steal.

I picked up some NGK 7mm from a 24v Gallant for 7 bucks. 034 is local to me and they have the LS2 connectors for 3 or 4 bucks each. $23 in the hole, so far.


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## ramone23456 (Dec 29, 2009)

ramone23456 said:


> I pulled the trigger on 4 myself. Let me know how that Honda wire search goes.


4 coils showed up today. That was quick.
Now on to assembling everything else I need to get these installed.


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## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

Any info on the Tyco/Bosch male connector for harness? I think I may have sourced from EFI Express but it's a really crappy pic and not so cheap.


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

ANT THE KNEE said:


> Any info on the Tyco/Bosch male connector for harness? I think I may have sourced from EFI Express but it's a really crappy pic and not so cheap.


This is a seemingly decent deal:

http://www.wiringspecialties.com/coni.html


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## ramone23456 (Dec 29, 2009)

woodywoods86 said:


> This is a seemingly decent deal:
> 
> http://www.wiringspecialties.com/coni.html


Go here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/LS2-COIL-CON...item3a6866a0ec

They will do up to 24" pigtails for free.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

ANT THE KNEE said:


> Any info on the Tyco/Bosch male connector for harness? I think I may have sourced from EFI Express but it's a really crappy pic and not so cheap.


Have you tried Mouser Electronics and Digi-Key. Both carry Tyco connectors.


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

ramone23456 said:


> Go here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/LS2-COIL-CON...item3a6866a0ec
> 
> They will do up to 24" pigtails for free.


Your page didn't work 

I like wire specialties because you can get individual parts...


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## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

Chickenman35 said:


> Have you tried Mouser Electronics and Digi-Key. Both carry Tyco connectors.


I haven't tried either of them, thanks for the tip. I'll see what I can dig up. Thread seems to be lacking info on those connectors. I did find the gm connectors HERE for a really good price from what I can see. When I get more info on the Tyco connector i'll post up. Funny, I have FSI coils waiting to go in and I'm starting to work on this.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

ANT THE KNEE said:


> I haven't tried either of them, thanks for the tip. I'll see what I can dig up. Thread seems to be lacking info on those connectors. I did find the gm connectors HERE for a really good price from what I can see. When I get more info on the Tyco connector i'll post up. Funny, I have FSI coils waiting to go in and I'm starting to work on this.


I'd just buy the pre-wired GM connectors from Auto Wiring Solutions. Specify 24" leads and cut to length.

http://stores.ebay.com/Auto-Wiring-Solutions?_trksid=p2047675.l2563

4 X GM LS2 coils connectors pre-assembled with 24" leads $36.00:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-IGNITION-COIL-CONNECTOR-TRUCK-D581-D585-LS2-SET-4-/251302441315?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item3a82caf163










I just used Deutsch connectors on the main harness. Easier than Tyco connectors. 

Wirecare.com is a good source for Deutsch connectors. Here's a link to the 4 pin connectors:

http://www.wirecare.com/deutsch-connectors.asp?type=Industrial&series=DTM&contacts=4











Note: Leave sufficient length on the old VW/Audi coil side ignition harness and you can swap back and forth between coil setups if you wish. That's what I did on my AEB.


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## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

I may have found the Tyco/AMP male connector *HERE*/. Can anyone confirm or deny?


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## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

Chickenman35 said:


> I'd just buy the pre-wired GM connectors from Auto Wiring Solutions. Specify 24" leads and cut to length.
> 
> http://stores.ebay.com/Auto-Wiring-Solutions?_trksid=p2047675.l2563
> 
> ...



So your talking about cutting off the factory plugs and wiring in the Deutch connectors I guess. I was really trying to make it plug and play so that the factory harness stays intact.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

ANT THE KNEE said:


> I haven't tried either of them, thanks for the tip. I'll see what I can dig up. Thread seems to be lacking info on those connectors. I did find the gm connectors HERE for a really good price from what I can see. When I get more info on the Tyco connector i'll post up. Funny, I have FSI coils waiting to go in and I'm starting to work on this.


The Plug and Play harness with Tyco connectors was just a nice Option that Toby came up with later on in the thread. And you still have to assemble the ends. If some one added the Tyco part numbers I could include those as well...but no ones stepped forward with that info so far. 

Most of us either hard wire ( solder ) the new GM terminals or use the recommended ( by me ) Deutsch connectors. The Deutsch connectors are easier to wire, cost effective and more readily available, IMHO. :beer:


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

ANT THE KNEE said:


> So your talking about cutting off the factory plugs and wiring in the Deutch connectors I guess. I was really trying to make it plug and play so that the factory harness stays intact.


Yes. Toby came up with the Plug and Play option later on in thread. But I have no part numbers for the Tyco male connectors...

Edit: I was looking around for the Male Bosch connectors a couple of days ago. This might be the one...but I'm not 100% sure:

http://www.bosch-connectors.com/bogscoca/category/121/product/2094










Unfortunately I really don't have any time to research the Bosch/Tyco male connector further...


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## ANT THE KNEE (Aug 25, 2000)

^^^^^ based on that I have a P/N 1 928 403 453 :thumbup:

I'm going to buy some stuff and report back.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

ANT THE KNEE said:


> ^^^^^ based on that I have a P/N 1 928 403 453 :thumbup:
> 
> I'm going to buy some stuff and report back.


DigiKey will sometimes send out free samples... :thumbup:


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

Chickenman35 said:


> The Plug and Play harness with Tyco connectors was just a nice Option that Toby came up with later on in the thread. And you still have to assemble the ends. If some one added the Tyco part numbers I could include those as well...but no ones stepped forward with that info so far.
> 
> Most of us either hard wire ( solder ) the new GM terminals or use the recommended ( by me ) Deutsch connectors. The Deutsch connectors are easier to wire, cost effective and more readily available, IMHO. :beer:


If you want to have swappable harnesses you could either buy this or make your own.










http://store.034motorsport.com/products/ignition-solutions/harness-update-repair-1-8t-4-wire-coil.html

Doing something like this and having one harness with GM Connector and other with Factory connectors. Having a single connector rather than four separate connectors. You also replace the old cracked factory wires.

Also note I am local to 034ms so I use a lot of their stuff and also go to them for a lot parts. I am not telling you to buy their $180 parts, although it is really good quality. You, if savvy enough, could do something similar for about $70-100 and create two harnesses.

I actually just ordered some GM terminals and I am going to direct wire them in.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

I love Deutsch connectors. As I've mentioned before, the beauty of Deutsch connectors is that all of the pins easily remove from the backside of the connector. And no special Pin extraction tools are required, as on Amp, Tyco/Bosch or Weatherpack connectors. A small flat blade screwdriver is all you need. Heck, you can probably disassemble them with a toothpick...which could be why they are so popular on farm and construction vehicles. 

I was doing a lot of testing for this thread, so the ability to rapidly switch setups was important to me. On my setup I can swap between the stock AEB coils, LS2 coils and an MSD DIS-4. All with in minutes. :thumbup:


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

This is exactly what I was thinking of doing. I can carry spare 2.0T coils and a Deutsch connected harness so if the AEM box dies on me? I can just swap it out in a few minutes and roll on.


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

Where is the cheapest place to get 4 gm connectors with the pigtails?


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## ramone23456 (Dec 29, 2009)

formerly silveratljetta said:


> Where is the cheapest place to get 4 gm connectors with the pigtails?


http://www.ebay.com/itm/251302441315?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

They will eave the pigtails up to 24 inches for no charge.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

I wanted to report that I got a chance to run WOT pulls on my ls2 coils. They run great, but at stock dwell, I still needed to bring the gap down to 0.023" to get clean pulls at 30 psi of boost. Next, I'm going to increase the dwell and see how much that allows the optimal gap to grow for that same boost.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

*Sv: LS2/Yukon coil conversion*



Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I wanted to report that I got a chance to run WOT pulls on my ls2 coils. They run great, but at stock dwell, I still needed to bring the gap down to 0.023" to get clean pulls at 30 psi of boost. Next, I'm going to increase the dwell and see how much that allows the optimal gap to grow for that same boost.


You have 2.0ms on top now?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Gulfstream said:


> You have 2.0ms on top now?


2.4ms max up top (load and rpm) per stock dwell table.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Max those coils need at a minimum of 4.0ms dwell ... They can take a good amount ... See if Gonzo can raise that up for you ...


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Stock D585 Dwell Table. It's pasted on the first post for reference ( Thanks to Spartiati ). These are what should be transferred into the Load x RPM table on the ME7. 

Choose a voltage Row value ( IE 14v ) from the GM table, and extrapolate the values into the Load xs RPM table of the ME7. Note ME7 also has a Voltage x RPM table, but this is apparently only used at low load. *However, it should be modified as well to prevent a lean misfire bucking when tipping into throttle from a light load situation.*


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

spartiati said:


> Max those coils need at a minimum of 4.0ms dwell ... They can take a good amount ... See if Gonzo can raise that up for you ...


I will raise the dwell, but not as high as 4+ ms. It has been reported in many platforms that these coils run into a limp mode if overdwelled. 



Chickenman35 said:


> Stock D585 Dwell Table. It's pasted on the first post for reference ( Thanks to Spartiati ). These are what should be transferred into the Load x RPM table on the ME7.
> 
> Choose a voltage Row value ( IE 14v ) from the GM table, and extrapolate the values into the Load xs RPM table of the ME7. Note ME7 also has a Voltage x RPM table, but this is apparently only used at low load. *However, it should be modified as well to prevent a lean misfire bucking when tipping into throttle from a light load situation.*


Yep, 13v is what I'll be targeting for my base dwell increase. So, I'll max out 3.5ms at higher loads and rpm.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I will raise the dwell, but not as high as 4+ ms. It has been reported in many platforms that these coils run into a limp mode if over-dwelled.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, 13v is what I'll be targeting for my base dwell increase. So, I'll max out 3.5ms at higher loads and rpm.


The over-dwell protection only occurs around 9ms Max Dwell from the info I have researched. Have you found out different Max? ( I'm wondering if there is a Thermal protection strategy ). You " should " be able to bump dwell significantly beyond stock Dwell D585 Dwell Table , particularly in the mid-RPM x High Load range of the corresponding ME7 dwell table. You should be able to get pretty aggressive there ( between 3,000 to 4,500 RPM ) at high loads, as coils will only be seeing those higher temperature values for a short period as engine accelerates through that range. 

Of course only push the Dwell values beyond the stock D585 values if needed. More dwell than required only creates more unnecessary heat ( Just an FYI for newer readers... As most of you regulars already know about heat issues and Dwell ) :thumbup:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Richard, from my research, there has been issues of self-discharge of the coil as low as 5ms at high load and rpm. There also seem to be some inconsistencies as to when it occurs, the variance seems either voltage related, coil production related, and there has even been speculations of the self-discharge point varying with the coil health.

What is scary is that when it happens, the coil self-discharge when they need, and that could be totally off-sequence and cause some serious damage if sustained on an aggressively tuned motor (think auto-ignition type of pressure spikes). I would not personally push them past 3.5ms at higher load and revolutions for the obvious sated reason (unless you are supplying them with very low voltage that's untypical of what a 1.8t normally puts out). :beer:


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Max they will not discharge even when ran at 5ms on the VW 1.8t... I was testing them when first installed and had them running 5ms almost throughout the full throttle range @25psi. I kept it like that for a week until I found the actual GM dwell tables and made changes accordingly...

These have been my dwell settings for the past 2 years and have not had any issues at all with them. I just upped the dwell time in the 2500-3000 rpm range for boost onset, but I'm sure I can dial that back down...

<a href="http://s326.photobucket.com/user/spartiati86/media/LS2CoilDwellTables_zpscefdeefe.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k420/spartiati86/LS2CoilDwellTables_zpscefdeefe.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo LS2CoilDwellTables_zpscefdeefe.jpg"/></a>


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Taylor wires with 1.5" aluminum spacers


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Thanks Pat. I've been pretty busy the past week, but I'll be sure to add the Taylor Wires and info to the front page. Those look pretty nice. :thumbup:

Steves Dwell maps as well. :thumbup:

Edit: First page updated.


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

I will be ordering new kingsborne wire set tomorrow as well as the ls2 wiring harness hoping to get things cranking this weekend


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The coils will discharge as part of the internal protection feature. If that occurs, they are HOT, very hot. Be that engine bay temps, over dwell, etc. IMHO 5.5ms is a completely safe max dwell on these coils. However, I do suspect that non OEM coils might not be as good at shedding heat, or their thermal protection temp cutoff is lower than the OE coils. I have had the best luck with OE junkard coils and AC Delco aftermarket coils.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

need_a_VR6 said:


> The coils will discharge as part of the internal protection feature. If that occurs, they are HOT, very hot. Be that engine bay temps, over dwell, etc. IMHO 5.5ms is a completely safe max dwell on these coils. However, I do suspect that non OEM coils might not be as good at shedding heat, or their thermal protection temp cutoff is lower than the OE coils. I have had the best luck with OE junkard coils and AC Delco aftermarket coils.


That's what I was trying to say, it seems that they could start to self-discharge randomly when pushed for long periods (road racing type of applications). Other platforms that have tried (OEM ones), speculated that it could be production inconsistencies as it happens on some coils while the next ones take it with no problem. I'm by no mean trying to discredit what Steve is reporting with his (and thanks for sharing your maps with us), but I think it's wise to cap them at 4ms up top to be safe from the reported inconsistencies, or continued elevetated temp in racing applications. The coils are powerful as it is, and not running them near that protection threshold (leaving a safety net) will provide plenty of juice for our 1.8t while keeping them clear of any issues (boost onset and early midrange could be fattened more with a nice taper increasing revs/loads). :beer:


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Did a brief search on Google for " LS2 coil self discharge ". Some very interesting reading on the subject.

One of the more informative discussions:

http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7894&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

The dwell vs voltage table is taken almost directly from the factory GM dwell table (12-15V is verbatim).

The max dwell I set as per Bruce's video claiming 5.5 to be the sweet spot.

The dwell vs load table I had increased the higher load column to try and solve a breakup at boost onset over the winter (turned out to be fouled plugs). I need to lower it a touch more. But I've never once had any spark breakup even when I had the last column set to 5ms almost across the board. I wouldn't recommend it just stating my observation. I'm sure running them at 5ms in the summer heat on a road course would start to cause issues.


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Chickenman35 said:


> Did a brief search on Google for " LS2 coil self discharge ". Some very interesting reading on the subject.
> 
> One of the more informative discussions:
> 
> http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7894&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


That's consistent with concerns raised by others racing on these coils. Like mentioned, it seems to be random and vary depending on the coil production or health. Since there is no fix and consistent threshold point, I feel that it would be advisable to cap the dwell at 4ms to keep clear of any potential issues. Spark is increased so much from what we're coming from with the vag stuff, that I don't see the point pushing them (especially knowing the possible self-discharge behavior at higher dwell figures). 



spartiati said:


> The dwell vs voltage table is taken almost directly from the factory GM dwell table (12-15V is verbatim).
> 
> The max dwell I set as per Bruce's video claiming 5.5 to be the sweet spot.
> 
> The dwell vs load table I had increased the higher load column to try and solve a breakup at boost onset over the winter (turned out to be fouled plugs). I need to lower it a touch more. But I've never once had any spark breakup even when I had the last column set to 5ms almost across the board. I wouldn't recommend it just stating my observation. I'm sure running them at 5ms in the summer heat on a road course would start to cause issues.


I understand what you're saying Steve, and I'm not trying to argue the fact that you have not have any issues. What I'm saying is that others have had problems running these dwell figures, and there are some possible inconsistencies... just a word of caution. The link Richard posted is yet another group reporting the same thing.

As far as what Bruce's bench test revealed, well it's a bench test, and should be viewed as that. It's like taking a shock performance on a dyno and not accounting for real life drop-offs that always happen with continuous use, age, heat, resulting cavitation, etc. Personally, I will cap my max dwell at 4 ms and have plenty of spark compared to the oil COP, but I'll also have the confidence that I left a safety net just in case one of my coils were to be prone for self-discharging. :beer:


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Max. when you say you are capping the maximum dwell at 4 ms, I'm assuming you mean at high rpm only? There should be no need to cap the Dwell below 5ms at lower RPM's.

The other thing is, in my short time researching this issue, the problem seems to keep popping up on Megasquirt forums. It could very well be a MS ECU issue. MS still does not have proper coil drivers for the VW COP.

It is a recognized problem and they are developing a new MS-3 Extra circuit board specifically to drive the VW coils properly. It is now a known issue at MS, that the VW coils pull more current than the MS-3 Extra drivers can provide and that the ME7 ECU has coil drivers that can handle much more current. Could be a similar problem with the LS2 coils when they are driven hard...

Do you have any info with this issue popping up on DSM forums, or RX7/RX8 forums, Haltech forums etc? Would be good to know if this is in fact limited to MegaSquirt ECU's or if it has been reported with other factory and Aftermarket ECU's.

It seems odd that the DSM and RX7/RX8 guys can reportedly run these coils at really high Dwell figures ( up to 7ms ) with no issues. Of course it could very well be a production issue. IE: Poor quality offshore parts. Bruce Bowling did note that the offshore coils did have a much more " dirty" scope trace than the factory AC Delco coils.


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

An interesting article with " inside " information to the problems that MSD had with their original designs of LSx coils. Todd Ryden is the source information in this article, so the information can be taken as accurate. Todd is an MSD engineer and Author of the SA Design manual " How to build High Performance Ignition Systems " :

http://www.amazon.com/MSD-82878-LS2-Series-Coil/product-reviews/B00B81O3SA

Note the reference to increasing the +12v wire size from a 20 gauge to a 14 gauge with the MSD coils to handle the extra current draw.


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

I've been running used OEM truck coils for 4 yrs now. I have mine set @ 4.7ms up top. I don't road race, but I beat on it almost every night. No issues.

Just my experience. I can't say all will have the same experience.


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

I ordered a set of custom 8mm wires from Kingsborne today. $40 for the wire set plus shipping. Can't beat that!

I asked for the LS2 plug ends and honda h22 boots. Hopefully they will all get here by the weekend


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

In response to the MS drivers being the issue; I am not convinced. I have customers running all sorts of coils well over 100hp/cyl on various MS drivers. Included are ls2/truck and early Hitachi bolt down VAG coils on the ms3x driver and legacy ms drivers (low current). 

The late rev push down coils are a problem with MS due to the 200ohm pulldown resistor in them. The 5v regulator cant supply enough current to keep the 5v supply stable enough to work. Now the driver in the ms can be changed to fix it (pnp sourcing 5v direct) but I am unsure of stabity of more than 6 coils like that. I have tested up to 75hp/cyl like that so far with no issues. I will go further once my customer upgrades some other hardware. 

Its likely you are getting more results from the MS camp because people are actually using things and discussing them!


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

I think it all eventually comes down to quality control of the coils. That throws a huge Monkey Wrench into the equation. :banghead:


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

Can someone post the pinout diagram for the stock coilpack harness? I need to match them up with the LS2 coil harness when I solder everything together this weekend. Bruce bowling describes the LS2 pinouts in his test video so I think I have that part covered.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

LS2 pin-outs and matching VW pin-outs are in Post #1

The first post is updated as new information becomes available. Pretty much everything you need to know for the conversion is listed in the first post.



> D = 12 V power = The same as 1.8t coil pack No.1 (power from the firewall connectors)
> 
> C = Trigger Sequencer Signal. the 1 to 5 V signal from the ECU = the appropriate color code from the ECU equivalent to the 1.8t coil pack pin 3.
> 
> ...


----------



## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

Chickenman35 said:


> LS2 pin-outs and matching VW pin-outs are in Post #1
> 
> The first post is updated as new information becomes available. Pretty much everything you need to know for the conversion is listed in the first post.


I saw the diagram for the LS2 connector. If I am looking at the VW connector which is Pin 1 and which is pin 4?


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

formerly silveratljetta said:


> I saw the diagram for the LS2 connector. If I am looking at the VW connector which is Pin 1 and which is pin 4?


The stock connectors should be numbered. If connectors aren't numbered ( Aftermarket harness change ), pull a coil out and look directly at the pins. They are numbered left to right 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 . I usually need a magnifying glass though... :laugh:

Look very carefully ( Magnify ) and you should be able to see the pin numbering as in this picture. ( Trust me it's there ) :




Here's a schematic: Edit: For coil pin-out reference only. Please ignore MegaSquirt wiring to left as it is for waste-spark. As soon as I can modify picture with MS Paint I will.


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

Thank you I can't wait to get this conversion done


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

Got the coils in and working on a custom bracket to mount them.


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

Got my Yukon coils mounted in a custom bracket on the driver side fender.

Picking up the custom kingsborne 8mm wires today then hardwiring the stock ignition coils with ls2 connectors


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

^^ Looking good! :thumbup:


----------



## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Max, looking at your latest Dyno figures I'd say you've got your LS2 setup working pretty good. Just curious what Dwell settings and plug gap you are able to run on E85, with what... 30psi of boost? :beer:


----------



## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

formerly silveratljetta said:


> Got my Yukon coils mounted in a custom bracket on the driver side fender.
> 
> Picking up the custom kingsborne 8mm wires today then hardwiring the stock ignition coils with ls2 connectors


Home Depot Racing!!! Haha jk, that's a cool spot to put them.


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

suffocatemymind said:


> Home Depot Racing!!! Haha jk, that's a cool spot to put them.


Hey thanks. Yes I am hoping to get constant airflow to them and keep them away from the vibration and engine heat


----------



## One-Eight GTI (Jan 5, 2010)

Looking forward to seeing if they make a difference on your car Richard:thumbup:


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

formerly silveratljetta said:


> Hey thanks. Yes I am hoping to get constant airflow to them and keep them away from the vibration and engine heat


:thumbup:


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Chickenman35 said:


> Max, looking at your latest Dyno figures I'd say you've got your LS2 setup working pretty good. Just curious what Dwell settings and plug gap you are able to run on E85, with what... 30psi of boost? :beer:


Richard, I will do a full review on them here once I increase the dwell. I have been running them at factory dwell and .025" gap with no problem at 30 psi. Cold start have not changed much, maybe a tick harder to start, but nothing really needing immediate attention (I plan to play with my cranking fuel enrichments to see if I can improve the cold starting after the dwell bump). 

One thing that is noticeably better is the warm up sequence (zero change done to the warm up fuel enrichment). Before, on the Vag COP, regardless of what I did to the warm up enrichments, the idle would stumble in cycles until out of the warm up sequence. Now, it's smooth like butter, you can actually drive the car right after it starts. It's a big improvement, and I'm anticipating it being even better with more charging time than the factory tables. :beer:


----------



## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Richard, I will do a full review on them here once I increase the dwell. I have been running them at factory dwell and .025" gap with no problem at 30 psi. Cold start have not changed much, maybe a tick harder to start, but nothing really needing immediate attention (I plan to play with my cranking fuel enrichments to see if I can improve the cold starting after the dwell bump).
> 
> One thing that is noticeably better is the warm up sequence (zero change done to the warm up fuel enrichment). Before, on the Vag COP, regardless of what I did to the warm up enrichments, the idle would stumble in cycles until out of the warm up sequence. Now, it's smooth like butter, you can actually drive the car right after it starts. It's a big improvement, and I'm anticipating it being even better with more charging time than the factory tables. :beer:


What changes should I make in maestro to help with cold start?


----------



## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

I hardwired the ls2 connectors into the harness but I don't think I am getting any spark. Here is a picture of the stock 1.8t connector. Can someone please identify each wire and compare it to my notes below? Can I just pull one of the spark plugs out and turn the car over with the spark plug wire connected to see if it is arcing?


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

formerly silveratljetta said:


> What changes should I make in maestro to help with cold start?


On E85 I assume? 

If so:

1) increase the fuel enrichments (IPW, primer, etc.) by a good chunk. Don't be afraid to add a lot, when cold you're only firing the 15% of gas in the mix. So, you need to add a lot more fuel to get enough gas to fire a cold engine. 

2) lower the cold ignition trim (ign vs coolant) as much as possible if Maestro gives access to them. Haven't done this in the 1.8t since I'm only using Unisettings to dial my cold start, but it helped tremendously with my Evo for example.


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

I am on gasoline right now. I pulled the spark plugs and grounded them to the valve cover. The plugs are arcing when I crank the car so that does not appear to be the problem. A couple of the plugs look fouled so I will change them all out and give it another shot


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> On E85 I assume?
> 
> If so:
> 
> ...



So pull timing during cold start, or cold warmup? Latter of the two we have access via a map labeled, Timing vs Coolant Temp


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Dave926 said:


> So pull timing during cold start, or cold warmup? Latter of the two we have access via a map labeled, Timing vs Coolant Temp


Yes, warm up! Timing vs lower coolant temp can be dialed down in the warm up range (rpm and/or load) to eliminate the usual bucking when instantly driving an E85 car cold during warm up sequence (especially under 40*).


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

I got the coils installed and the car is running strong! I adjusted the stock coil dwell v. load and dwell v. voltage to mimick the LS2 tables. The coils are firing at 4ms or greater on the entire rev range. Holy cow it feels like a completely different car in the low load areas.

I have some fuel tweaking to do in the higher rpm range but for now all is good. 

Sorry for the dirty engine bay I havent washed it in over a month


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## One-Eight GTI (Jan 5, 2010)

Looks awesome Richard. Nice to hear they make it run better


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Yes, warm up! Timing vs lower coolant temp can be dialed down in the warm up range (rpm and/or load) to eliminate the usual bucking when instantly driving an E85 car cold during warm up sequence (especially under 40*).


How much We talking here, because now that you mention the cold bucking, I get to deal with that daily


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> One thing that is noticeably better is the warm up sequence (zero change done to the warm up fuel enrichment). Before, on the Vag COP, regardless of what I did to the warm up enrichments, the idle would stumble in cycles until out of the warm up sequence. Now, it's smooth like butter, you can actually drive the car right after it starts. It's a big improvement, and I'm anticipating it being even better with more charging time than the factory tables. :beer:


When you say "stumble" do mean a action similar to "hunting" during warm-up. Just wondering because I was thinking about doing LS2 on my B5 (AEB) also. I don't dare touch the gas pedal until at least three minutes after initial start up.


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

Maybe I am missing it...where on the Kingsborne site can you order custom wires?

What have most gone with length wise. I am shooting for installing under the intake manifold.

Joe


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

RabbitGTDguy said:


> Maybe I am missing it...where on the Kingsborne site can you order custom wires?
> 
> What have most gone with length wise. I am shooting for installing under the intake manifold.
> 
> Joe


I believe you have to call


----------



## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

RabbitGTDguy said:


> Maybe I am missing it...where on the Kingsborne site can you order custom wires?
> 
> What have most gone with length wise. I am shooting for installing under the intake manifold.
> 
> Joe


I ordered over the phone. 30. 34, 38 and 42 inch wires. $40 plus shipping for 8mm wires.

You should measure your own lengths depending on where you plan to mount the coils.


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

Thanks! Will do that then!

Maybe eventually someone like 42DD would machine a nice bracket for is to hold them in with the way this has taken root in the VAG community!

Joe


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

RabbitGTDguy said:


> Thanks! Will do that then!
> 
> Maybe eventually someone like 42DD would machine a nice bracket for is to hold them in with the way this has taken root in the VAG community!
> 
> Joe


There are already a few out on the market that I've found. LS coil relocation brackets. Everything from Home Depot specials to some really nice CNC machined customs:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=LS2+coil+bracket&client=firefox-a&hs=D2V&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=qYJvU_amHNbooASAtoD4CA&ved=0CCkQsAQ&biw=1344&bih=670

Here's a nice E-Bay one at a reasonable price:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CBM-11012-LS2-LS3-coil-relocation-bracket-valve-cover-side-mount-4-cylinder-only-/221034634685


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

I am trying to understand the necessity of this modification? I see a lot of folks making a lot of HP on stock coils, for instance Ed @ FFE. Is it easier for him because he is running aftermarket EMS? Is this the cats meow for people using motronic?


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

People can make high HP with oem coils and run super tight gaps...

But also understand that these cars see 60-120 SECONDS of use each time with the only full throttle being burnout and then the run (say 9-10 seconds for the run and 10-15 for burnout?) ...

Its far different from someone on a road course staying on the throttle for 20-30 minutes continuously. The heat is what gets these things...


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## scarboroughdub (Jul 8, 2002)

Chickenman35 said:


> I think it all eventually comes down to quality control of the coils. That throws a huge Monkey Wrench into the equation. :banghead:




Hey guys just reading through this thread a bit, im a big vag tuner but also do alot of skylines. my personal race car has had these d585 coils and we recently ditched them for vag coils as the d585 did auto discharge randomly. i had dwell set as low as 3ms and auto discharge would still occur around my peak load point.

Just a heads up.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

I've used the factory gm coil dwell map with the d585 coils. I am able to run a larger gap and haven't had a single issue in well over a year.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

scarboroughdub said:


> Hey guys just reading through this thread a bit, im a big vag tuner but also do alot of skylines. my personal race car has had these d585 coils and we recently ditched them for vag coils as the d585 did auto discharge randomly. i had dwell set as low as 3ms and auto discharge would still occur around my peak load point.
> 
> Just a heads up.


If they're discharging at 3ms, the coils must be damaged or defective. It actually the current load that triggers the auto discharge. Over heating ( with too high of a dwell setting initially ) damages internal components. This creates more current draw and triggers the over load protection circuit ( Auto Discharge )

Edit: Another way that coils are damaged is trying to run too large of a plug gap. If you get the gap too big under high boost the spark cannot jump the plug gap. All that energy has to go somewhere, and it arcs over internally. That will severely damage a coil in fairly short period of time.

As noted, some of the aftermarket units vary in quality a lot. The factory GM ones though seem to last forever. Not to say that they can't be damaged by running too high of a dwell setting, but the factory ones appear to handle abuse a lot better than some aftermarket brands.


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

Ive been running these for awhile now. I just changed my whole coil dwell map to 4.5ms and the car pulls hard as hell all the way to redline. No spark blowout anymore.


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## HusseinHollnad (Feb 26, 2015)

Read through the thread over the past few days.

I'm interested because I'm using these (AC D585 coils, Kingsborne 8mm custom wires) on my 5cyl Volvo, and have some breakup/blowout issues when I get into peak torque range (5K).

'98 Volvo V70AWD 2.3L, 5 cyl., FR7DPP+ plugs @ .030" with PTE6262bb .82a/r running 26psi (dyno'd previously @ 450AWHP @ 21psi) M4.4 Tuned using TunerPro.

My dwell table was based on measured values of an original coil on an oscilloscope - 

Optimum charge times are: 
Volt - ms
6 - 12,5
8 - 8,7
10 - 6.8
11 - 6
11,5 - 5,6
12 - 5,3
12,5 - 4,9
13 - 4,6
13,5 - 4,25
14 - 4

12v/2.3ms example spark:










accounting for the 5cyl max (dwell) degrees available, and coil discharge time (1ms) needed.

This is the dwell time map










..based on the degree values available, and taking into consideration the M4.4 software was not intended for COP . Red areas are where I tried reducing the dwell to compensate for the breakup/blowout










I'm curious if anyone has any suggestions regarding suitable dwell changes I might try.

I switched back to the Bosch (ME7) coil packs and dwell tables used on 99- coil packs, and the breakup went away, so it's definitely dwell related.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Before you go crazy chasing a ghost, are the coils OEM? People have found that these coils are not created equal. With a strong aftermarket presence, it is possible to get these coils come with quality ranging from poor to good depending on the manufacturer. Coil health is also to consider, one tired coil can wreck havoc, so keep that in mind (especially if magic is expected with wide gaps on high cylinder pressures). I would try giving a fresh set of coil whirl to see if the problem persist, than move back to investigating the dwells and plug gaps etc. GL! :beer:


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## HusseinHollnad (Feb 26, 2015)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Before you go crazy chasing a ghost, are the coils OEM? People have found that these coils are not created equal. With a strong aftermarket presence, it is possible to get these coil with quality ranging from poor to good depending on the manufacturer. Coil health is also to consider, one tired coil can wreck havoc, so keep that in mind (especially if magic is expected with wide gaps on high cylinder pressures). I would try giving a fresh set of coil whirl to see if the problem persist, than move back to investigating the dwells and plug gaps etc. GL! :beer:


Hi

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, the coils are OEM GM coils, I first had used ones, then I bought brand new AC Delco packaged D585 coil packs. I had read up on the bootleg varieties before I even started the conversion.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

TRying to understand the dwell table you have posted. The d585 coils take alittle more dwell time to charge up. Rich had issues on his Aeb ecu because it was locked into such a low dwell setting. 

You may need to up the dwell to charge up the coils enough to get them to fire. I run them at 3.8-4 ms around town and up to 4.5-4.6ms at peak torque tapering to 4.2ms by redline.


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## HusseinHollnad (Feb 26, 2015)

spartiati said:


> TRying to understand the dwell table you have posted. The d585 coils take alittle more dwell time to charge up. Rich had issues on his Aeb ecu because it was locked into such a low dwell setting.
> 
> You may need to up the dwell to charge up the coils enough to get them to fire. I run them at 3.8-4 ms around town and up to 4.5-4.6ms at peak torque tapering to 4.2ms by redline.


Thank you for your input - 

That's the problem - I can't raise the dwell over what is available based on degrees of dwell - for example:

At 6600RPM the crank rotates in 1 ms: (6600*360)/60000=39.6 degr. ( 1 minute=60.000 ms).
That means that 144 degr takes 144/36.9 = 3.9 ms
That means that there is only 3.9 ms per coil available to get loaded and to discharge.
It looks like these coils need at least 1 ms to discharge, so there is only 2.9 ms left for loading the coil.
In 2.9 ms at 6600 RPM the crank rotates 2.9*39.6= 114,84 degr.

If I raise the dwell time up top, it won't have enough discharge time, based on the math.

I'm not sure that is where the problem lies though, since I get the breakup around 4500 - 5K, where I have 5.3 - 4.4ms dwell.


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## HusseinHollnad (Feb 26, 2015)

This was the dwell table posted on page ten:










My stock tables all use voltage/rpm scaling rather than load/rpm

I was wondering what changes you guys had to make to the stock ME7 dwell table to work with the D585's - in my case, the entire dwell table is revised as I mentioned, my M4.4 was never designed for COP, so the standard dwell table was all wrong. 


It was mentioned that changes were made to offset the breakup, but I can't find any screenshots of modified tables to look at for reference.


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## ChrisAudi80 (Apr 18, 2011)

Chickenman35 said:


> Now here's something interesting that has come out of our research on the LS2 coil conversions.
> 
> The popular 3 wire to 4 wire Bosch coil conversion with the ICM delete now looks like a really *BAD* idea.
> 
> ...


I hope Chickenman is still around to answer this post.

My stock AEB coils are on the way out, I believe. They are the original coils on the motor with 190k km. I already had a set of 06A 905 115D 4 pin coils and have ordered plugs with connectors to convert my harness.
However, after reading this, I am worried that I have spent 50 bucks (more) for nothing. 

Is there absolutely no benefit in swapping to D coils and eliminating the ICM on the AEB? I still use the stock airbox.

I am running a stock AEB with original turbo, 630cc Dekas on E85. Not chipped, but using a MAP-ECU3 piggyback and a N75 H valve. I am peaking at 11psi now. I have the fuel dialed in OK. I do have the odd misfire and unstable AFRs and unstable manifold vacuum/boost. I gapped down the FR7KPP33U plugs that were in the engine to 0.7mm. After that, the AFRs stabilized a little. Would this indicate the AEB coils are weak now?

BTW, would F5DPORs be better?


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

You eliminate a failure prone ICM.

IMHO I'd rather carry spare coils and swap them than coils and an ICM.


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

AEB motors are also pushing almost 20 years old now so I expect parts availability to drop off. 

My 2c


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## ChrisAudi80 (Apr 18, 2011)

gdoggmoney said:


> You eliminate a failure prone ICM.
> 
> IMHO I'd rather carry spare coils and swap them than coils and an ICM.


Spare coils? I thought that the AEB dwell time was too short for full effectiveness of the 115D coils?
To summarize:
From what I have been able to determine after copious searching and reading is that the AEB has a dwell time of about 2.0-2.5ms, while SOME of the later 4 pin coils need 4ms for full effect. However, some 4 pin coils DO work well with AEB style dwell. Now, if I install VEMS, this is no issue anymore, but I am not doing that anytime soon.

I just cannot get a clear answer whether the D coils work good with 2.0-2.5ms dwell or not.


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## Chris164935 (Jan 10, 2004)

HusseinHollnad said:


> Thank you for your input -
> 
> That's the problem - I can't raise the dwell over what is available based on degrees of dwell - for example:
> 
> ...


Did you get your problem figured out?

I was reading your post and looking at the math. Now, I'm not an expert tuner or super familiar with coil dwell times, etc (still learning a lot of this myself). But, I do know that it takes a cylinder 2 rotations to complete a full cycle (4 stroke engine: suck, squish, bang, blow). So, for your math, you are assuming that the coil fires every 360 degrees of the crankshaft spinning (AKA, 1 rotation). Shouldn't it be 720 degrees (AKA, 2 rotations)? Basically, it would seem to me that you have double the time available than you thought you did. 3.9ms*2=7.8 ms. After taking into account the 1 ms discharge time, you have at least 8.8 ms of charge time, more than enough to get the 4-5 ms dwell time. Thus, it seems like you were fighting yourself more than the hardware. This is just me thinking out loud though...


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

No, because two cyls fire together every 360°, you're assuming they all fire at once.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

ChrisAudi80 said:


> Spare coils? I thought that the AEB dwell time was too short for full effectiveness of the 115D coils?
> To summarize:
> From what I have been able to determine after copious searching and reading is that the AEB has a dwell time of about 2.0-2.5ms, while SOME of the later 4 pin coils need 4ms for full effect. However, some 4 pin coils DO work well with AEB style dwell. Now, if I install VEMS, this is no issue anymore, but I am not doing that anytime soon.
> 
> I just cannot get a clear answer whether the D coils work good with 2.0-2.5ms dwell or not.


Hmmm..just popped in for a look see. We did a lot of research on coils in this thread, and the AEB coils are a LOT better than people give them credit for. A large size physically which is what you want for good turns ratio with larger wire size and good heat dissipation. And yes they do use a *very* short dwell time. You will lose some secondary output if you replace AEB coils with 4 wire coils. The only reason people saw an better spark with the newer 4 wire coils is because the coils were new. In most cases the AEB coils were very old and were just getting tired. 


The ICM is NOT an issue. IF you keep the stock ICM heatsink and the the stock airbox. VW/Audi did a lot of clever engineering to ensure adequate airflow over the heatsink fins in the Airbox. Eliminating the factory airbox for a CAI and not providing adequate cooling for the ICM is the #1 cause of failure. Audi forums report a lot less problems with the ICM than VW forums as the Audi members tend not to bother with CAI's as much. The Audi airboxes have very good air-flow. #2 cause of failure is the factory thermal paste between the heatsink and the ICM drying out. It should be replaced at least every 5 years with a good quality CPU heat sink thermal compound like Arctic Silver 5. 

BTW... I still have the factory ICM on my Audi A4 and it's still going strong at 245,000 KM. Replaced the heatsink compound when I got the car in 2006 and found it was all dried out. Car had 126,000 KM on it then. Replaced the OEM AEB coils at 233,000Km with brand new OEM Beru Coils ( $54 CDN each from my Local supplier ) trying to solve a high boost ( 15 - 18 lbs ) missfire problem. New coils really didn't help. Turned out problem was a combination of a hidden vacuum leak ( surprise, surprise ) and a bad injector.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

gdoggmoney said:


> You eliminate a failure prone ICM.
> 
> IMHO I'd rather carry spare coils and swap them than coils and an ICM.


ICM's are not failure prone. That's been proven a fallacy. CAI's and not replacing thermal paste when they dry out cause the failures. The ICM's them selves are very robust. AEB coils hardly EVER fail. The OEM AEB coils are much more robust than the later 4 wire coils.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

l88m22vette said:


> No, because two cyls fire together every 360°, you're assuming they all fire at once.


??? Not sure who you were responding to. But a 4 cycle engine has an ignition cycle once every 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation....unless you're running Waste spark. COP engines behave as a single cylinder engine as far as plug firing. 

To the poster with the Volvo. With COP you have a lot more Dwell time available for coil charging than you estimated. That is the main advantage of running COP or CNP . Chris 164935 was spot on with his observation. You have 720 degrees of crank rotation per ignition cycle. Not 360 degrees. Plenty of time to charge the COP coils to higher figures.


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

This thread has been absolutely amazing!

Just finished up my harness. This was a 034 repair harness for 4 wire coils. I bought the LS2 connectors disassembled off ebay. Took about an hour.


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## Ryan Bollin (Dec 8, 2014)

This is cool but seams like its a pain to do, I bought a coil pack from ecs tuning, i have an mk4 1.8 and its alot better then the oem. The only thing is that your better off getting the 2.0 coil pack for the 1.8 cause it fires better, ecs also sells a conversion kit for the 2.0 to fit the 1.8 which is nice. It gives some what more of a gap doesn't result in a huge increase in power but im sure on a tuned car it gives some.

http://www.ecstuning.com/News/MKIV18t_CoilpackOptions/


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Ryan Bollin said:


> This is cool but seams like its a pain to do, I bought a coil pack from ecs tuning, i have an mk4 1.8 and its alot better then the oem. The only thing is that your better off getting the 2.0 coil pack for the 1.8 cause it fires better, ecs also sells a conversion kit for the 2.0 to fit the 1.8 which is nice. It gives some what more of a gap doesn't result in a huge increase in power but im sure on a tuned car it gives some.
> 
> http://www.ecstuning.com/News/MKIV18t_CoilpackOptions/


Great 5th post, thank you for enlightening us! :banghead:

Would you happen to have a write up about how I can re-do my harness to switch back to these great 2.0 coils? Because I can't wait for going back to failing COPs and blowing spark under load. :screwy:


----------



## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Great 5th post, thank you for enlightening us! :banghead:
> 
> Would you happen to have a write up about how I can re-do my harness to switch back to these great 2.0 coils? Because I can't wait for going back to failing COPs and blowing spark under load. :screwy:


Have a cup of coffee and go easy on the newb. lol.


----------



## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

For those who still think there is a difference between the 1.8t and 2.0t coils just don't bother. I actually measured them on a dyno. Same day, same engine, same temp, same fuel and same effect. No difference whatsoever. They are the same and a pointless "upgrade" on the 1.8t. They are not an upgrade at all. Same-same. 

ic:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

groggory said:


> Have a cup of coffee and go easy on the newb. lol.


LMAO, that was actually going easy on him, it's not like he got the Aaron treatment ...



Gulfstream said:


> For those who still think there is a difference between the 1.8t and 2.0t coils just don't bother. I actually measured them on a dyno. Same day, same engine, same temp, same fuel and same effect. No difference whatsoever. They are the same and a pointless "upgrade" on the 1.8t. They are not an upgrade at all. Same-same.
> 
> ic:


:thumbup::thumbup: 

Same here, I did back-to-back-to back tests and at 30 psi on both coils, I was able to grow the gap from 0.020" to 0.025" before experiencing spark blowout. Same day, same stretch of road etc. Big exercise in futility!


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

I vote for vortex unblocking Aaron. This place could need some colorful commentary on a regular basis. Becoming cricket city.


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> ... it's not like he got the Aaron treatment ...





Gulfstream said:


> I vote for vortex unblocking Aaron. This place could need some colorful commentary on a regular basis. Becoming cricket city.



I didn't find him bad at all... I've seen others go off on some serious tangents and it was overlooked or they were given a little slap 

I think Mr. 5posts has learned his lesson though :laugh:


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

Hey I just realized one of my coils is missing the little metal tabs that connects the bracket and gently touches the heat sink.

Should I be overly concerned?


----------



## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

Gulfstream said:


> I vote for vortex unblocking Aaron. This place could need some colorful commentary on a regular basis. Becoming cricket city.


Aaron doesn't want to come back. Or he would have by now


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

Anyone get an igniton malfunction code for their LS2 setup?

They run fine, it might be some other aspect of my setup. I do get cylinder correction so that could have some to do with my cam. 

Just wondering.


----------



## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

woodywoods86 said:


> Anyone get an igniton malfunction code for their LS2 setup?
> 
> They run fine, it might be some other aspect of my setup. I do get cylinder correction so that could have some to do with my cam.
> 
> Just wondering.


No, malfunction at all for me. The ecu doesn't even know there was a change (both at factory 1.8t COP dwell, and optimized GM dwell).


----------



## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> No, malfunction at all for me. The ecu doesn't even know there was a change (both at factory 1.8t COP dwell, and optimized GM dwell).


Hmmm. Maybe I will get another set of coils and see what happens. The problem is it is happening to all four. I am like 40% sure it has something to do with my intake cam.


----------



## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

No malfunction for me


----------



## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

No issues at all on my end. Been running them for about 2-3 years already.


----------



## AmIdYfReAk (Nov 8, 2006)

Think your hitting the safety discharge?


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

I believe he is referring to the ignition - open circuit DTCs you get on DBW cars without software or tune that doesn't code those out.


----------



## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

AmIdYfReAk said:


> Think your hitting the safety discharge?


I only adjusted the dwell up by about 15% across the board for now. Max dwell is set at 4.7. Plug gaps are .023


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

elRey said:


> I believe he is referring to the ignition - open circuit DTCs you get on DBW cars without software or tune that doesn't code those out.


No open circuit, but definitely didn't write the codes down. Just said ignition coil malfunction.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

woodywoods86 said:


> No open circuit, but definitely didn't write the codes down. Just said ignition coil malfunction.


Check your grounds. Main ground from Coils ( not trigger sensor ground ) should run directly to Valve cover. Then run two auxiliary ground wires ( 12 gauge preferred ) from the Valve cover directly to Chassis ground and the Negative terminal of the battery. 

Even if it doesn't correct the Code errors, it is a good procedure to follow.

Edit: Make sure that the coil harness wires are not too close to the HT leads. Keep them well separated.

EMI does strange things. You absolutely must use Spiral core HT Leads. Solid core or carbon core HT Leads cause too much EMI.


----------



## ramone23456 (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm about set to do this on my car. I've assembled everything I need.
My question is on the dwell table settings. What's the consensus on best settings? I'm running a F23 Frankenturbo on a 2.0 liter stroker.
Yes I've read the thread about 10 different times. I just want to be sure before I tear into my harness.
Thanks.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

woodywoods86 said:


> No open circuit, but definitely didn't write the codes down. Just said ignition coil malfunction.


Where are you taking your +12V feed for the LS2 coils from? Should be tapped into the +12V feed from from the ECU. If you're using a different feed source that would cause a code. You can run a Relay to the 4 x 12V ECU feed then connect that to the battery.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

ramone23456 said:


> I'm about set to do this on my car. I've assembled everything I need.
> My question is on the dwell table settings. What's the consensus on best settings? I'm running a F23 Frankenturbo on a 2.0 liter stroker.
> Yes I've read the thread about 10 different times. I just want to be sure before I tear into my harness.
> Thanks.


Spartiati is a pretty smart cookie. His dwell table is on Post #1. I'd suggest using that. Just linked some RB26 guys from MegaSquirt to it.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Chickenman35 said:


> Spartiati is a pretty smart cookie. His dwell table is on Post #1. I'd suggest using that. Just linked some RB26 guys from MegaSquirt to it.


Yep, and here is mine on AEM infinity standalone ECU.


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## ramone23456 (Dec 29, 2009)

Thanks guys. :thumbup:


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Chickenman35 said:


> Spartiati is a pretty smart cookie. His dwell table is on Post #1. I'd suggest using that. Just linked some RB26 guys from MegaSquirt to it.


Thanks for the kind words Rich! Hope all is well on your end! How's the 280 doing?


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## punkrider99 (Jan 16, 2004)

Max, you can probably get away with a lot less dwell than what you're running. Running more dwell than necessary just adds heat into coil. FWIW, on my 1000+whp 2JZ Bonneville race car that runs 30+psi of boost, I run 3ms of dwell at all voltages and rpm. Just a totally flat table at 3ms everywhere. Just sayin'.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

spartiati said:


> Thanks for the kind words Rich! Hope all is well on your end! How's the 280 doing?


Just taking it out of Winter hibernation. Installed some new ( Stock ) injectors and taking it to the Dyno in about 2 weeks. Want to get a baseline on the engine on the stock ECU, then I have a Haltech E11 ECU that I'll be installing.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

punkrider99 said:


> Max, you can probably get away with a lot less dwell than what you're running. Running more dwell than necessary just adds heat into coil. FWIW, on my 1000+whp 2JZ Bonneville race car that runs 30+psi of boost, I run 3ms of dwell at all voltages and rpm. Just a totally flat table at 3ms everywhere. Just sayin'.


On LS2 Yukon coils ( D585 ) or something different? What plug gap are you able to run?

Edit: I forgot. Max is running D514 LS2 coils. ( My old AEB setup that didn't pan out because of peculiarities of the AEB ECU ) 

One variable that is very important Primary voltage. A Primary voltage of 14.5 volts requires considerably less dwell than 12 volts. It's quite common for some Drag cars to use 16 volt systems to boost Spark energy. 

I've still got that Kenne Bell " Boost A Spark " system to install on my AEB. Just never seem to have the time.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

Chickenman35 said:


> Just taking it out of Winter hibernation. Installed some new ( Stock ) injectors and taking it to the Dyno in about 2 weeks. Want to get a baseline on the engine on the stock ECU, then I have a Haltech E11 ECU that I'll be installing.


Fantastic Rich. Shoot me an email when you get the results. Would love to see how it's going. Should be a fun project.


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## punkrider99 (Jan 16, 2004)

Chickenman35 said:


> On LS2 Yukon coils ( D585 ) or something different? What plug gap are you able to run?


LQ9 truck coils with the heat sinks. Not sure of the part number. Think we run .020" or so.


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

^ Yeah, LQ9 are the same as D585's I believe.

I'm pretty sure that Max and Spartiati are running larger than .020" gap at 30 psi boost. You need a bit more dwell than 3.0ms for bigger gaps. I think they run about .024", but thye can chime in and confirm. It's worked out well for them as they've been running these for a number of years with no failure. But always smart to run the minimum dwell that you can. 4.0 to 4.5ms shouldn't be an issue for these coils though, as long as they have some cooling off periods at light load conditions. Don't forget that these cars are also DD. That makes a huge difference from a race only car.

Both Max and Steve do Track days as well with sessions running 30+ minutes. That puts a lot more Heat strain on the coils than Drag racing or even Bonneville, where time running is quite short.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

I currently run .024 for my plug gap. 

Under full throttle I have the dwell taper up from 4.2 to 4.6 during peak torque and then tapering back down towards 4.2 towards redline. This is only during WOT runs. Even at high rpm and mid throttle (lighter loads), I've been running 3.9-4.1 for dwell to help with keeping the coils cooler. Not that it was ever an issue, just taking some preemptive safety measures. For idle and daily driving it sits between 3.6-4.0.


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

FINALLY got around to doing the Yukon/Ls2 coil conversion. 

Took more of an aesthetic approach to it. Waiting for bumper to come back from paint to really test but an initial run up the road, down and around the neighborhood here yields a SMOOTH run and NO misfires to speak of... updated the DWELL maps with Steve's maps as well. 

My take on it used:

-4 D585 coils (heat sink style)
-1 GM coil side harness and 1 car/truck side harness
-Taylor 79210 wires (bought/split set of 8 with someone)
-034 coil cover modified for the coils themselves and re-powdercoated
-1/4-20 hardware with coupler nuts, flat pan screws for bottom side, stainless hardware topside

Hardest parts...unwrapping the damn GM harness and figuring out Cyl 2/3 on my original "AMU" Mk1 TT harness as the input/trigger wires are coded the same way. 

Rest of it was just patience and time marking things out, cutting once, labeling and piecing things together the way I wanted it to look. The 79210 wires work really well for this setup. Someday, might do another GM wiring harness to try and THIN out the wiring a bit to tuck it better being the coils themselves, but its nice the way it is for now. Clean. 

Here is a link to the album...

http://s18.photobucket.com/user/joeallison_99/library/My%202001%20Audi%20TT%20225Q%20Roadster/D585%20Coilpack%20Conversion-March%202016

A few pics...

Mocking it up... 














































Frankenstein lab sorta test to make sure the wiring was right before buttoning up the harness and such...










Finished harness...and part of the reason why I may "remake" my own/thinner version down the road. The GM harness consolidates the power wires 12v switched into a single connection on the GM connector vs. the 1.8T harness had 4 wires coming from the coil pack harness from as far back as I went with it (may consolidated elsewhere) and they were heavier gauge. So, I trimmed out the consolidation for the switched power source on the GM side and soldered in a dedicated power wire for each coil....for piece of mind...










had the couplers, heat shield and the D585 brackets re PC'd again in black texture...



















Pulled the coil ends off the Taylor's to make this all work as per my vision... re crimped and heat shrunk each of these ends as I put them through the cover grommets...



















Putting it back together...




























Finished product...updating file...




























Can't wait to really give these a good go. 

Joe


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## One-Eight GTI (Jan 5, 2010)

Beautiful work. I need to do this someday. Thanks for posting pics


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Very nice work. Love your coil mounting bracket using the standoffs. I may use that method on my 280Z if I decide to go with Direct Fire coils on my 280Z. 

I'm a little concerned about the sharp kink of the plug leads connecting to the coils. That could be an issue down the road. You may find the jacket splits from heat exposure and the tight bend . Keep an eye on it. 

One thing to note on the D585 coils. You must use the outer metal bracket with the coils. It acts as an EMI shield. Some of the standalone ECU guys have had huge problems with EMI emissions from these particular coils after removing the mounting brackets. 

There was an article about it on EFI University. I'll see if I kind find the link...


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

I thought about TG at bend and where they are with relative to heat (and the bend I knew they would need with the way I wanted to do it) was why I chose the Taylor wires. 

Supposedly that 10.4mm rating provides continuous heat protection up to 600-degrees Fahrenheit. I have not put a IR measurement on the heat back there, but I am pretty sure it is it is under 600 deg. 

102,000 volts dielectric strength and are recommended for extreme under hood temperatures and open wheel racing. All their "409" series wires are. So, hoping that advertising holds up to that fact!

They are thick. 

I did read similar on the d585 brackets...

I am glad it came together the way they did 

Joe


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

Here is a very good technical thread from EFI University on CDI Ignitions vs Inductive systems. Some very interesting discussions on the complexity of matching Inductive Coils to Engine characteristics ( much more complicated than you would initially think ), the importance of isolating all electrical components from EMI radiation, particularly with CDI systems , and a general Pro's and Cons of each type of system. Well worth reading from start to finish:

http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=390

Another good article from EFI University on LS2 coils:

http://efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6653&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

Wow, thanks for this! Had seen the one article there but not the other. That's really informative!


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## BeasTToftheEast (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm about to purchase all the parts and was wondering if you had a list of part numbers for anything that wasn't obvious Rabbit?


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## BeasTToftheEast (Sep 20, 2007)

I just wanted to let others know that I'm in the middle of piecing together a kit for myself similar to the one on the previous page, but as earlier stated I'm going to end up with extra parts including Taylor 79210 cables and extra pigtails for the D585 LS2 coils. I'm not looking to make a profit off anyone, just defray the costs a bit for both of our projects. For both I would be asking $65 shipped, just let me know


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

Hi all, 

Any chance on your feedback on these coils and how your finding them some time on? Read the whole thread and seems like a mixed bag of reviews from various people long and short term. I will be easilly able to adjust the dwell etc so not a problem of being able to utilise them there. One problem i did see what length of dwell time and saw a calc for 6k iirc leaving 8.xms and started to question if will hit issues reving to north of 9k?

I've found i'm killing OEM ones in under a 20 mile drive at times now on cylinder 4, heat from the wastegate and manifold is the obvious reason why 2 have died in quick succession.





Long term the manifold will be ceramic coated as well as additional heat shielding but in the mean while it seemed like the logical time to be moving over to coil packs.

Here in the UK they are very sparce and theres not a lot of knowledge about the GM stuff just due to not being present here, with this being the case sourcing from over the pond id the logical step.

Would anyone be able to advise if both of these are genuine and what I'm after?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221957490121?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&fromMakeTrack=true (questioned if these are genuine or good quality)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4pcs-BSC120...ash=item4b06d2cb64:g:0B0AAOSwIgNXu0bA&vxp=mtr (these are next best option have found but aren't the stronger 120mA ones)

Leads wise i was going to get in contact with http://www.kingsborne.com/ as seemed like good value for money and hopefully speedy turn around.

Last but not least my biggest isssue is what ever i buy or go with i need it at Cali in by the end of the week ideally as got some dates booked up for the car and need to assure its ready.

Thanks in advance


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

Just looked at my dwell times on the OEM COP coils and to me they seem quite high in comparison to most. It done 5k plus last year on these settings with no issues?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I have only had good luck with used coils and straight from dealer replacements (Delphi). Lots of problems with others.


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I have only had good luck with used coils and straight from dealer replacements (Delphi). Lots of problems with others.


Fair play and thanks for getting back to me, found some delphi units on ebay that could try.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Delphi-...ash=item280a181587:g:UHcAAOSwZJBYAA99&vxp=mtr

These seem like a winner to you?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Yes, though the crustiest of used ones have served me well at 200whp/cyl.


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## watersbluebird (May 17, 2017)

Can anyone help? After converting to the LS2 coils, I have had a CEL (open circuit on all 4 cylinders) and the yellow oil pressure sensor warning has been on the dashpod. When I reinstalled the TT coil, the fault for that cylinder vanished.


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## watersbluebird (May 17, 2017)

Can anyone help with my conversion, please? I'm getting a CEL (open circuit cylinder errors on all 4 which disappears as soon as I put the TT coils back in) and a yellow oil pressure sensor warning on the dash pod.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

The internal reistance is different between the factory and GM coils. I fixed the problem by turning off the CEL codes in my Eurodyne maestro file. Without maestro I would think you would need to wire in some kind of resistor.


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## watersbluebird (May 17, 2017)

spartiati said:


> The internal reistance is different between the factory and GM coils. I fixed the problem by turning off the CEL codes in my Eurodyne maestro file. Without maestro I would think you would need to wire in some kind of resistor.


I've known the resistance is different and always wondered if this was the issue. I don't have a clue how I would wire a resistor in. On this thread, someone says about wiring across pins 2 and 3; not sure what this means. 
Thanks Spartiati.


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## ParkerPerformance (May 8, 2017)

I have a complete set of D585 coils with plug wires if you are interested. I parted out my old car and don't need them anymore. I will ship overseas. PM me if interested:thumbup:


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

ParkerPerformance said:


> I have a complete set of D585 coils with plug wires if you are interested. I parted out my old car and don't need them anymore. I will ship overseas. PM me if interested:thumbup:


Ahh man 

Just finished ordering all my bits, how much you want for them shipped to CA? Team mate may want them off you


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## 1fast2liter (Apr 4, 2005)

I messaged him to but no responce yet

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


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## ParkerPerformance (May 8, 2017)

StaceyS3 said:


> Ahh man
> 
> Just finished ordering all my bits, how much you want for them shipped to CA? Team mate may want them off you


150 for everything 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

*Attention. Photo re-posting*

Do to the antics of Photobucket, a lot of valuable pictures in this thread have disappeared. I'd like to ask all contributors to repost their Photo's on a different site such as Google Drive or Microsoft One Drive. Yahoo photos is still free as well. Owners can still view and download ( recover ) their photos from Photo-Arse.

Lets not let let this valuable tech info get lost.

Richard Boyk


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

watersbluebird said:


> Can anyone help with my conversion, please? I'm getting a CEL (open circuit cylinder errors on all 4 which disappears as soon as I put the TT coils back in) and a yellow oil pressure sensor warning on the dash pod.


Make sure you have the pinouts correct. Especially the A and B grounds. Picture on first page of article.

You have a Trigger sensor ground ( B ) which must go back to the ECU. And then an extra main ground ( A ) that must go to the Valve cover. If either of these wires is not connected, or connected wrong, that could cause the code issue. Impedance imbalance. Lots of guys running these coils with no Error code issues... so it's likely its a wiring issue. 

Photobucket arseholes have ruined a lot of the pictures. I'm slowly going thru mine and re-posting what has been lost. Hope all the wiring diagrams are still up. The first Post I update with new info. So check their in a bit..

*LS2 coil pinout*










D = 12 V power = The same as 1.8t coil pack No.1 (power from the firewall connectors) 

C = Trigger Sequencer Signal. the 1 to 5 V signal from the ECU = the appropriate color code from the ECU equivalent to the 1.8t coil pack pin 3. 

B = Trigger ground back to ECU, in this case Pin 2 on ECU connector 1, the one with a brown wire with a white stripe, equivalent to the 1.8t coil pack pin 2. 

A = Common ground for the coils, equivalent to pin 4 in the 1.8t coil pack diagram. ( Ground to Valve Cover ).


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## azenor (Dec 22, 2015)

*D585 CEL Issues/Misfires*

I have the D585 coils installed in my Audi TT 1.8T, getting the CEL same as others. Open circuit on all 4 cylinders, someone said put a resistor but im not sure exactly where?

The care runs like a complete beast on the 2.0T coils. I bought a second ignition coil harness (034) and replaced the ends with LS2 plugs (per the diagram on the first page). 
Car runs great until around 4.5k RPM where it begins to miss really bad. The car begins to buck back and forth, becomes undrivable under WOT. I switch back to my 2.0T coils and harness, not a single misfire and pulls like a champ.


I did attempt to wire in some resistors (200OHM) afterwards as a test (directly on the ignition signal wire). I now get a prim/secondary circuit malfunction, but the misfires at WOT are nearly gone. She pulls well with a few misfires from time to time (1-3 misfires every 2-3 pulls). Any idea what would cause all of this?


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

azenor said:


> I have the D585 coils installed in my Audi TT 1.8T, getting the CEL same as others. Open circuit on all 4 cylinders, someone said put a resistor but im not sure exactly where?
> 
> The care runs like a complete beast on the 2.0T coils. I bought a second ignition coil harness (034) and replaced the ends with LS2 plugs (per the diagram on the first page).
> Car runs great until around 4.5k RPM where it begins to miss really bad. The car begins to buck back and forth, becomes undrivable under WOT. I switch back to my 2.0T coils and harness, not a single misfire and pulls like a champ.
> ...


If you haven't adjusted the dwell time in the appropriate maps, then that is why you were bucking at around 4500rpms. The coils didn't charge up enough to give an adequate enough spark.


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## 1fast2liter (Apr 4, 2005)

So I run a older eurydyne tapp 1000cc file. If I do the conversion will I get the same misfire issues? With the Hitachi bolt downs iam getti g really bad missfires at peak boost be it 18psi or 35psi. So trying to figure out the best plan of action. Already has a brand new coil harness in it. Ran great till I went with the built motor at 8.5-1 and web head and 3652 catcams. Maybe the cams were the cause? 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

1fast2liter said:


> So I run a older eurydyne tapp 1000cc file. If I do the conversion will I get the same misfire issues? With the Hitachi bolt downs iam getti g really bad missfires at peak boost be it 18psi or 35psi. So trying to figure out the best plan of action. Already has a brand new coil harness in it. Ran great till I went with the built motor at 8.5-1 and web head and 3652 catcams. Maybe the cams were the cause?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


 You have to modify the Coil Dwell tables. See Spartiati's and Max'x dwell tables. Apply the Photobucket Hot Fix!!!!


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## mat3833 (Jan 30, 2008)

Just ordered a set of the Taylor wires and picked up a bank of coils from a Ls2 truck motor that included connectors and everything. I've read a good bit of the thread but I'm planning on testing the coils on my current tune this weekend and just need to know if I can pull the pins from my vag cables and re-pin them into the ls coils to test drive the setup?

I'm planning on asking Dave to adjust the dwell to something more suitable, but Im not sure if there is anything else I actually need to do to make these coils perform. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

mat3833 said:


> Just ordered a set of the Taylor wires and picked up a bank of coils from a Ls2 truck motor that included connectors and everything. I've read a good bit of the thread but I'm planning on testing the coils on my current tune this weekend and just need to know if I can pull the pins from my vag cables and re-pin them into the ls coils to test drive the setup?
> 
> I'm planning on asking Dave to adjust the dwell to something more suitable, but Im not sure if there is anything else I actually need to do to make these coils perform.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Performance will be decreased if you do not adjust the dwell tables. The factory dwell time isn't enough under load to keep from blowing the spark out on the larger coils.


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## mat3833 (Jan 30, 2008)

spartiati said:


> Performance will be decreased if you do not adjust the dwell tables. The factory dwell time isn't enough under load to keep from blowing the spark out on the larger coils.


Yea, from what I gather 5ms is the sweet spot? I was planning in sending Dave your dwell table for reference if he hasn't already seen it. But besides the dwell change can I just pin the coils and call it a day? 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

mat3833 said:


> Yea, from what I gather 5ms is the sweet spot? I was planning in sending Dave your dwell table for reference if he hasn't already seen it. But besides the dwell change can I just pin the coils and call it a day?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Pins cannot be transferred from one connector to another. Your options are to cut and splice or make an adaptor.


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## mat3833 (Jan 30, 2008)

I'm planning on making an adaptor. I already ordered a new female and male plug for my "upgrade/repair" harness from 034. I'm going to chop the end off the Ls2 harness and put on the new plug.

Thanks for the info, man. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Chickenman35 (Jul 28, 2006)

StaceyS3 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Any chance on your feedback on these coils and how your finding them some time on? Read the whole thread and seems like a mixed bag of reviews from various people long and short term. I will be easilly able to adjust the dwell etc so not a problem of being able to utilise them there. One problem i did see what length of dwell time and saw a calc for 6k iirc leaving 8.xms and started to question if will hit issues reving to north of 9k?
> 
> ...



I know I'm very late to replying to this, but I believe you can see why the #4 coil is constantly failing. It's the proximity of the Turbine outlet to Coil #4.

i"m sure you've fixed the situation by now, but here is a tip for other users who may be thinking about doing an LS2 coil conversion. Especially Road Racers who have heat soak issues causing repeated failure of ignition coils.

1: Do not mount the coils near extreme heat sources such as exhaust manifolds or Turbo's . In fact, do not even mount them on top of the engine. Instead use longer HT leads and move the coils to a cooler location in the engine bay. In this particular situation, a good location would be to Tig weld a bracket on to the Catch Tank assembly and mount the coils under the hose. Far away from the glowing Turbo.

2: Just like brakes, duct some cool outside air to the coils. It's amazing how a little air flow will dramatically reduce coil temperatures. You could even use a small blower fan to get some air flow if you can't fit some ducting. A 90 mm or 120 mm CPU fan can blow a surprising amount of air running at full tilt. But outside air ducting is preferred.

3: Edit. Boat Bilge blowers are ideal for cooling coils ( and injector and Fuel Rails ) . A inline blower works nicely. Add some duct hose from outside air and keep those coils cool.

https://pitstopusa.com/c-132241-brake-system-brake-ducts-hose-brake-cooler-fans.html


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## livingez_123 (Nov 3, 2014)

Been into Vw's for over thirty years and finally got into a 1.8t. within the first week I had multiple missfires and a failed coil pack. So I got to thinking why not move the coil pack away from the heat? Then since I own a LS powered vehical a light bulb went off...use the LS coil packs and remote mount them.
Then I come across this thread and suddenly all the wind has left my sails. I guess I'm a few years later to the party. So after 5hrs of reading I realized that I already have all the parts to make this work. I have an extra set of 8 coil packs from my Denali, extra wiring harness for both the GM and VW coil packs now I just need to find the room to mount them in a Beetles engine compartment. I'm going to look and see if I have room under the cowl cover. This is a great thread, glad I found it!


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## LilyVonVolsung (Jan 17, 2021)

this just sounds like 1 more bad idea in the long long list of 1.8t ignition setups. gotta be some other answer than this. any ideas?


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

LilyVonVolsung said:


> this just sounds like 1 more bad idea in the long long list of 1.8t ignition setups. gotta be some other answer than this. any ideas?


You have one post, so, tell how how and why you know that is a bad idea and what is better?

I personally have never had issues with the oem system. 

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## LilyVonVolsung (Jan 17, 2021)

at one time I thought the same thing and then I installed new coils and could not believe the difference. @ 1.5-1.8 bar stock coils last about a week for me. ive come up with something different im trying out. my ideas are really getting crazy at this point hahaha


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

more than likely it is your plugs, not your coils. I'm running 30+ psi and going over 8000rpm for limiter(used to be 9k) and I would go through plugs more than coils. 

Feel free to elaborate on your different ideas and crazy testing and setup.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

LilyVonVolsung said:


> at one time I thought the same thing and then I installed new coils and could not believe the difference. @ 1.5-1.8 bar stock coils last about a week for me. ive come up with something different im trying out. my ideas are really getting crazy at this point hahaha


Not going to elaborate?

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## vdubguy97 (Sep 13, 2003)

I run factory ignition coils latest revision what ever that is and have yet to have a coil fail on me. 30psi on GT30 with 8500 rpm. I do change my plugs every 5k miles. probably overkill but its cheap insurance


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

Agreed and same here. 

This thread is extremely informative 

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## LilyVonVolsung (Jan 17, 2021)

so after reading about some other cars doing this same coil swap I decided to give it a try. I found some 585 coils out of a Yukon and some HT leads out of a vtec prelude the guy at the wrecking yard just gave them to me so that was nice. took me a while to splice the leads is kinda a pain in the ass there are some plastic inserts in the ls2 leads that are near impossible to get to fit but I managed somehow. I had the entire harness from one side of the yukon's motor so I cut the coil harness on the car down at the transmission where it is only 6 wires and soldered the the plug for the harness in that way (had to switch the ground wire cause it doesnt go down there it just bolts to the valve cover) took a couple hours to solder and wire it all but turned out ok. 
to be honest I didnt think this was gonna work but when I turned the key the damn car fired right up and is running better than it ever has. but ive seen that before so we will see. but ill try let ya know if I have any issues. I dont expect performance gains really I just am tired of replacing coils that seem to die for no reason. what you call a spark plug issue is just ridiculous to think that way coils should fire under any spark plug ive seen ht leads direct to ground that dont kill coils. the problen is just poor engineering I think and well a lack of folks calling bull**** on it hahaha. but thats my opinion I know. it could be something with my tune or who knows what else there are endless possibilities but I think I finally got it sorted.. I hope.. (knocks wood) hahaha


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## LilyVonVolsung (Jan 17, 2021)

I just remebered something maybe has somethin to do with all this but back in the day with the old muscle cars if you drove your car around alot and never really opened it up, when you did finally floor it they would miss like crazy because the plugs would get gas fouled. the higher compression the motor was, the more likely this was to happen. seems like the plugs would get a glaze on them and when under heavy load would suddenly fail. Or at least thats how it was explained to me. im not sure what really happens but I know that it does because ive dealt with it before, and simply cleaning the plugs makes it go away for a little while. but this would explain why in a car that is raced all the time the coils have no issues but in a daily driver there can be problems especially if you turn up the boost... anyway just a thought...


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

That old school hot rod scenario, doesn't apply here unlees you're terribly tuned

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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

You could've had a **** coil(s) have and bad grounds, etc. 


My harness is from an 03. Closing in on 300k on the harness. But I've been crazy with keeping it clean, protected and checking it frequenting for age damage, etc. I don't have ignition issues and I'm swapped lol.

Everyone quickly blames coild because it's an easy out to figuring out the real problem. Which could be a coil, but too frequently isn't. 






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## LilyVonVolsung (Jan 17, 2021)

yeah hot rod scene for me is just played out, there are some fantastic cars and stuff but its just not for me. 
so sorry took so long to follow up on this been working to much and havent had time to tinker with this car. 
So after I drove it the next day I got in and went to the store and the engine light was on. I dunno who started this thread but after going over everything a 100 times and looking at what happens you cant just swap in ls2 coils by matching wires and not get a check engine light. it could be the version of ls2 coils I have as ive not tried with different kinds but looking at the coils one problem is the resistance across pins is not the same at all or better yet vw coils have resistance values across some pins that ls2 coils dont and the engine light gets set within the first 1 second of running for all four coils, not sure why nobody mention this but damn thats an issue for me. some guys can drive around with that light on and it dont seem to bother them but I cant do that it makes me crazy. I want to know when something breaks not find out about it later broken down on the side of the road. the sad thing is the car runs like a cut dog. im even getting better fuel milage. I knew there would be a big difference when the first time I started it after the swap the car exhaust sounds a whole octave lower. so.... so so so what to do? right now I think im going to try to figure out just what the ecu is looking for as far as why the code gets set. im guessing that its because there is no resistance between the positive and negative on the ls2 coils, well at least not for a minute or two of running then the diode breaks down and there is a reading but problem is the code gets set immediately upon starting so I dunno. Ill keep playing with it and see what happens.
I really appreciate the suggestions though ive had to go back to basics a bit and make sure its not some basic thing like plugs and wires its easy to get caught up in what your doing and not notice an obvious problem. personally I just think I need to swear at it some more that usually seems to help, its not exactly lady like but then again neither is the way I drive hahaha... ah hell this car been towed so many times it thinks its a boat maybe thats it...


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## LilyVonVolsung (Jan 17, 2021)

so finally got the check engine light off. apparently the ecu checks resistance across the signal wire and the ecu ground wire (pins 2 and 3 on oem coils) on my car. not sure if its the same with other years and models but based on the fact that all the oem coils I tested and even some r8 coils all have the same resistance across those pins I would guess all the ecu's do this test. dunno why this wasnt mentioned in the original post but whatever. So this is what I did. 1st found out what the resistance is on oem coils so id know what to aim for... 2nd found the resistance on the ls2 coils... 3rd came up with some resistors that when coupled with ls2 coils the resistance is the same as oem coils.... which as it turned out was about 400 ohms when combined in parralel with ls2 coils @ 98k or somethin like that... it isnt exact but within 10% of what I was aiming for... wired all 4 of them in across the signal and ecu ground wires and no more check engine light. pretty easy and straight forward really just takes some time to get the right numbers. car runs better than ever. just one more upgrade to go with this and then ill be done messin with it. since it is no longer cop opens up a couple options, but ill let ya know if it works out... Long story short. If your gonna do this swap your more than likely gonna need to use some resistors across pins 2 and 3... 400 ohms worked for me but your coils may be different.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

May depend on the year, the early vag coils were about 1k signal to ground (similar to ls) but that evolved as the newer coils were developed. Likely 150hp models are old enough to be ok and not trigger a cel.


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## LilyVonVolsung (Jan 17, 2021)

yeah the older ya go the less there seems to be built into the ecu to check for mine only checks the resistance from the signal wire to the wire going back to the ecu ground (pins 2 and 3). I tested alot of coils to like 30 or so (no I didnt burn up all of them up myself.... I had help hahaha) everyone of them were nearly identical at 388 ohms across pins 2 and 3, maybe 388 is some engineers fav number or somethin. I was a little worried running a resistor between the 2 lines that it might diminish the spark output somehow but that has not been the case. 
I really been torture testing this thing for the sake of science and stuff.... 
I must admit it has been fun as hell. Best of all no more hiccups in any situation ive come across so far.
I anticipate these will cause my spark plugs to wear out alot sooner than before but that cant be helped.
so far very pleased with the results but time will tell if this is really worth doing or just a novelty... I really do like how it has made the car sound though Ill see if I can figure out how to send a sound file its molta bella... try this .. getting on the freeway and being obnoxious for a sec...


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

So how will you provide a back to back comparison across plugs types and gaps for each coil type?


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## vdubguy97 (Sep 13, 2003)

Vegeta Gti said:


> So how will you provide a back to back comparison across plugs types and gaps for each coil type?


By the butt dyno...the most consistent of all


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## LilyVonVolsung (Jan 17, 2021)

hehehe yeah exactly... your right though I wish I had a better way to provide exact numbers. the only exact number is the number of times ive seen the ignition failing to fire which is zero, which was the goal for me. Ive never come across much in the way of power gains from someone improving ignition systems if they do its usually negligible like 5-10 hp. for me though when i went bigger turbo and turned up the boost and stuff I kept having missfires and now that is gone thats all I know. dont really need a dyno for that. but your right I wish I could tell ya if there is any sort of improvment in power output going from oem to ls2 when both systems are working properly. if I had to guess though, to be honest, I would say no. if the oems are working well in your car this is alot of work for very little gains as far as power output goes I would think. for me this was more of a repair than an upgrade cause the problem i kept having with the coils just wasnt going away.


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