# Engine coming out, cam timing chain service interval?



## Dangerrous (Sep 14, 2014)

*V6 3.0ltr Diesel Engine coming out, cam timing chain service interval?*

Hi guys, just getting ready to purchase my bits and pieces for the engine out service.
Can anyone tell me what the VW recommended service life of the chains are?

I'm going to purchase my items from ALL GERMAN PARTS, but I'm open to other recommendations if there are any
cheers in advance
Darren


----------



## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Dangerrous said:


> VW recommended service life of the chains


Hi Darren,

I don't believe there are any "recommended service life of a "chain", "belts" on the other hand (like in the 4.2 engines) must be replaced every 80K miles or 128K Km.

here is the 2005 VW maintenance schedule. 

Regards,

Salah


----------



## Dangerrous (Sep 14, 2014)

thanks
Darren


----------



## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

What engine out service are you undertaking ?


----------



## Dangerrous (Sep 14, 2014)

timing chains, guides, tensioners, rear crank oil seal, complete transmission oil drain, egr valve clean up/change, heat exchange unit clean up, throttle body linkage change/upgrade, water pump, v belt, alternator inspection, powersteering pipe inspection/change etc...
Darren


----------



## doz (Jul 29, 2013)

What sort of mileage has the ar covered to require to chains etc?


----------



## Dangerrous (Sep 14, 2014)

The car has done 165000, but the tensioners were gone when I purchased the car. Apparently the 2005 model has the dodgy tensioners, these were upgraded for the 2006 model. If I'm doing the tensioners I might as well do the chains. 
Darren


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't know about the V6, but on the V8 you can change the tensioners from the top without moving the engine.


----------



## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Dangerrous said:


> The car has done 165000, but the tensioners were gone when I purchased the car. Apparently the 2005 model has the dodgy tensioners, these were upgraded for the 2006 model. If I'm doing the tensioners I might as well do the chains.
> Darren


The good people who manufactured the The 3.0l V6 TDI engine said (here, page 15) that "*The chains are tensioned by sprung, hydraulic chain tensioners; this system is maintenance-free*."

That said, I wouldn't touch anything unless it's defective or it's on its way to be.


----------



## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

An opinion from this thread  might be helpful 





jkuisma said:


> timing chain tensioner is prone to fail, applies to circa 2004-2006 models. When starting a cold engine, there may be a scraping, metallic noise. It goes away in a second or two as the oil pressure rises. This symptom is not immediately fatal but it could eventually cause the timing chain to snap. Usually this is cured by replacing the upper right tensioner. This is no big deal (can be replaced with the engine in place, cost less than 200 euro). But if the noise is from the lower chain tensioner, replacing it will require the removal of the engine.


----------



## Dangerrous (Sep 14, 2014)

I'm doing everything, check out the Golf/Passat forum, there's a lot about vw chains and tensioners failing. I have the crank seal to do and I need to have a look at the front diff. 
Engine and gearbox removal is no big task, don't see what all the fuss is about
Gives me something to do over easter.
All parts ordered from these guys
http://www.allgermanparts.co.uk/common/home
relatively painless, I'll make up my own cam locking tool
cheers
Darren


----------



## AdW14 (Jan 24, 2014)

Timing chains get worn out. Old chevrolets you cant touch a new chain together laying it in a circle...on a worn motor it will just lay down flat. 

Also...im pretty sure the tensioners faîled in ours...its 750 for one and only a few hundred forthe other. I think you are wise to change them if they makeracket. I also see they sell the tips. Maybe that helps quiet them but wont help if its a bad part. Ours has almost130,000. 

Gruvenparts makes a piece thats metal that goes into the oil cooler. I plan to change that on ours since the stock vw plastic one is prone to failure according to others here.


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Different engine. As Darren said, the forums have stories about the engines with the failure problem. The V8 rattles at startup when the tensioner doesn't have pressure, but it doesn't cause the chain to fail. We'd know about it by now if it did.


----------



## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Dangerrous said:


> Can anyone tell me what the VW recommended service life of the chains are?


No fuss Darren. Your specific question was answered specifically. If you wish to replace the chains in your engine, go right ahead. But for any other reader, that's not VW recommendation or requirement unless there's evidence of failure. Having a tensioner issue does not necessarily mean that three chains must be replaced. 

Regards,

Salah


----------



## doz (Jul 29, 2013)

I thought the early 3.0 were subject to service bulletin from VW About the chain rattle?


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

The TB applies to: All 1999 - 2005 1.8T, 2.8L, 4.2L 

It states that the noise is normal and states "DO NOT replace the Camshaft Tensioner(s) or Camshaft Adjuster(s) for the noise concern as described above."

It seems this advice is correct for the Phaeton since I don't think there's been a single case reported in the forum of cam chain failure.


----------



## Dangerrous (Sep 14, 2014)

Sorry didn't mean to stir anything up.

I have been around cars all my life and have seen my dad replace chains on various motors when he used to repair engines etc.. So my thought was first, to see if there was any recommendation from the VW engine service specs and then to check if there had been any failures on the 3.0ltr diesel engine used by the VAG manufacturer, it seems that there is a problem with failures in the Golf and Passat engines but not necessarily the 3.0ltr, we all know about the tensioner problem on the earlier engines (of which mine is one) and the supplier confirmed that my new tensioner is a superseded part no. 
I've got the full chain/tensioner kit, oil seal and transmission filter kit for around £500. Since I purchased the car with this problem AND at trade -noted faults, this was always on my to do list as well as being in the budget. I've also got the added advantage of looking at other bits when the engine and gearbox are out. I'll be changing the headlights to 6000k and looking at the power steering pipe, if there's any sign of stress cracking I'll be on it, Front discs and pads are also on the cards next week.
Darren


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Darren, what are your tensioner symptoms?


----------



## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

invisiblewave said:


> The TB applies to: All 1999 - 2005 1.8T, 2.8L, 4.2L



http://forums.thecarlounge.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1125&d=1308453754


----------



## Dangerrous (Sep 14, 2014)

Each time the engine is started there's substantial rattle until the oil pressure is built up, When I was having the MoT I was inspecting the underside of the car and noted the chain noise, Brin confirmed my suspicion that there was excessive noise when the car was ticking over, he's been under more vehicles that I could even imagine. My girlfriend calls my car the bag of nails!
Darren


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Yeah, I think that's the rattle referred to in the TB. I suspect you're unlikely to have a problem with the chain. Mine was way worse than a bag of nails, my daughter described it as like an AK47! It was so bad that the Fidelity warranty covered the cost of changing the tensioner. I took a look at the chain when the top of the engine was stripped and there's actually not that much play in it, even with the tension off, I think it must run very close to the cover or whatever it rattles against. Worth doing, though, if you think it's that easy to drop the engine! I wish I had that kind of confidence.


----------



## Dangerrous (Sep 14, 2014)

I'll take loads of pics when out and stripped down


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Looking forward to them!


----------



## Dangerrous (Sep 14, 2014)

Read somewhere about the jacking mode, this is great, have to thank Michael for another great post. This made putting the car on axle stands so much easier.
D


----------



## Dangerrous (Sep 14, 2014)

*Another day at the office!*

I could think of a better way of spending Easter but I've had six months thinking about it.

This picture shows my transmission fluid, it's old, but free of deposits and there's no smell. I would have liked to have tested the gearbox before stripping the engine out but last weeks weather put a stop to that.



So as with the A8 the whole front comes off bit by bit leaving a nice hole for the engine to come out, so with all connections separated where possible, double an triple checking we start to get ready to pull the power unit out



Normally we just use seatbelt as strapping around the engine hoist hook, but because VW kindly gives us three lifting eyes I fabbed up a balance beam for extraction



Carefully we edged out the engine+transmission, two points to consider, a) the cat is too big to come out with the engine in, so it was left dangling b) the nearside driveshaft can't be removed without the cat coming out! now that's silly.

The air quality sensor pipes for the exhaust are mounted along the top of the gearbox, the connection is on top of the bellhousing, as we pulled the engine forward the bracket snagged on the heat shield, this was because the bolt that holds the bracket in place was missing, could the transmission have been out before?

Apart from the above, the engine and box came out relatively painlessly, I would have no problem on advising this task to any knowledgeable diy car enthusiast.

So there's a space where the engine used to be



And the engine is ready to be worked on



At no point could I see that you are able to work on the tensioner and chains without taking the engine out, there's no room, the turbo is in the way and the chance of dropping something down the rear of the engine is just too great. Sorry just not prepared to take that chance if there is one. 

Darren


----------



## doz (Jul 29, 2013)

Scary bit is the real work is just starting :wave:

Keep up the good work


----------



## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Great pics Darren.


----------



## Dangerrous (Sep 14, 2014)

*Looks like luck was on my side*

I've stripped off all component parts to reveal the chains and associated parts



I found a small piece of chain guide lodged in the casing, further inspection (pretty much staring me in the face!) and I found where from.



And one stretched chain riding on the sprocket!!!!





I'm going to renew all guides, tensioners but just the two cam drive chains, the guides on the other chains show hardly any wear relative to the cam chains
regards
Darren

Nb. This is exactly what I was expecting, all the TB's in the world can't replace what's staring me in the face, and that's a stretched chain ready to let go with the tensioner and sprocket going with it. Please note as far as I'm aware this predates the newer guides introduced to the later 3.0ltr diesel VAG engine


----------



## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

Great progress, 
I see how the chain has become longer, however, I don't think it is "stretched" this implies the steel links were under so much force that the steel deformed. 

It is probably a case of the links whose holes have become oval,,due to wear (lack of lubrication?) this is usually how they get longer. Not from actually stretching. 

For sure it needs replacing, and maybe the sprockets are worn too? Hard to tell from the photos. I would like to see a new sprocket side by side with yours, if it were me, to make sure all is ok... At this point the parts cost is low overall  

I did this job (very similar) on my BMW M5 engine years ago... The devil is in the details... You never know where you might need a teeny o-ring. The oil supply to the chain can come from all kinds of tricky places.

The BMW engine supplied oil to the chain via hollow pivot pins on the tensioner rails. And as the tensioner moved, it would wear some orings inside the rail. Nobody was replacing the o-rings and the guys selling the repair kits did not include them. The parts diagram did not even show them. If they were leaking, then the oil would flow back down into the sump, and not through the rail to the chain. They were a 2 penny part on a multi thousand dollar job that would make the difference between a temporary repair and permanent fix. 

Looks like you are a details oriented guy, but look at each part inside and out before slapping it all back together .


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Very nice! Is this the back of the engine we're looking at?

Assuming that's the tensioner in the centre of the picture, it's a totally different design to the one to which the TB applies (at least on the V8).


----------



## Dangerrous (Sep 14, 2014)

back of engine, sprockets okay, oil supply to tensioner is direct through the oil passage way, new tensioner is 'simpler' in design. There' s a section of chain which just rides both sprockets, this is where it's damaged.

Also investigating tar deposit from the side of the head, It's diesel tar, my mate's dad had the same problem on his S class, apparently it's an age problem with the mercs and associated users of the same style injector, I hope this is the case with mine, but I need to make an injector extraction tool. The copper sealing washer erodes and allows small deposits of diesel and exhaust to mix and escape making this hard tar like substance. You can get a kit to renew the injector seat and replace the washer with a new measured thicker one. Fingers crossed.
Darren


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

It's easy to see from those pictures just how little slack it requires for the chain to rattle.

Are we looking at two different types of tensioner here? The one in the centre looks like a conventional spring design, but what I assume are also tensioners on the upper chains look more like the V8 design with a slightly curved surface lifted by oil pressure.


----------



## cbh123 (Aug 25, 2013)

4 chains, 4 tensioners, 
Must be hard to know which is making the noise - except the one that is worn is a prime suspect. 
For this V6 diesel, it may not be a tensioner problem. Whatever caused the chain to wear so badly seems to be the big mystery....


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I agree. The broken guide looks suspicious, but it also doesn't look as if it was about to jump a tooth anytime soon. However, the change in part number of the tensioner does suggest some sort of issue with the earlier one. On the V8, I don't believe there was a change in the part number (from memory, I could be wrong).


----------



## Dangerrous (Sep 14, 2014)

I got the info about the superseded tensioners from this forum somewhere.

All the tensioners are of the same design, sprung loaded backed up by oil pressure when running.
The failed rider on the cam tensioner allowed the chain to sit on the aluminium shoe, I'll take some more pictures.

I have just visited my Audi Dealership and ordered the rest of the guides, be here Thursday 8am, ALL stock items, including gaskets.

I've made up a pulling tool to remove the injector, a ford Galaxy wheel nut is the correct thread, an M12 nut has been welded on to the end and the slide is a bit of 12mm studding, the slide hammer is a cam idler roller from an old Audi v8 service I did 



Here you can see where the copper washer has been letting by, not unusual for an injector of this age and mileage (reference used from the Mercedes guys).




The seat looks okay, the washer looks to be the only thing that's suffered failure

Here's the seat in the head



And the dirty injector, my mates dads' injectors were a lot worse



Tomorrow it's the turn of the egr valve, and what ever else I find 
Darren


----------



## Dangerrous (Sep 14, 2014)

*Pictures just for info*

Tensioner pulled apart



Old tensioner with new for comparison



Chain riding on Aluminium shoe instead of nylon runner


----------



## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

invisiblewave said:


> Assuming that's the tensioner in the centre of the picture, it's a totally different design to the one to which the TB applies


If you're alluding to the TB that we've mentioned earlier, it concerns *engines 1.8t - 2.8l - 4.2l*.


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Bindaham said:


> If you're alluding to the TB that we've mentioned earlier, it concerns *engines 1.8t - 2.8l - 4.2l*.


I was, but there appear to be two types of tensioner in Darren's engine.

Darren, does the new tensioner rely on good old-fashioned spring pressure, rather than oil, or does the old one also have a spring?


----------



## Dangerrous (Sep 14, 2014)

The actual pressure exerted on the chains is initially a spring then oil pressure when the engine is running, both old and new are the same by principle. all 4 tensioners work the same.

Add on note- injector issue is now sorted, my local diesel injector specialist had a new o ring and copper washer in stock, again the bosch approved part is slightly different from the original with the facing edge being slightly wider. The engineer is old school, he chatted about diesel engines for three hours, he's built a Gardner 11ltr diesel engine in his garage just for fun, needless to say I didn't get much done today.
D


----------



## Dangerrous (Sep 14, 2014)

With all parts in hand I locked up the engine where necessary.

I made the TDC locking tool, the crank has an 8mm hole drilled in one of the webs and the 16mm threaded hole in the sump enables you to confidently lock the engine up.
To turn the engine I made a rough copy of the vag tool which comprised of a 10mm long bolt and 8mm thick 25x25mm plate welded to it



Here's the lock installed



Next I locked up the cams and balancer shaft







Installed all the guides and tensioners plus 3 out of the 4 chains



Just need to apply a small amount of grease to various areas to help with lubrication until the engine starts spraying oil. 

Turned the engine until it was at tdc and all locking pins relocated. All okay.

Next I'm on the EGR valve and gearbox filter, plus extracting the atf out of the torque converter
Darren


----------



## Dangerrous (Sep 14, 2014)

A few months ago I had the mil light come up for the throttle, I carried out the Vaseline lubrication temporary fix and purchased some new linkages from ebay. There's a sprung clip that keeps the linkage tied to the swirl flaps, once I'd popped that off the bottom link fell out, the new ones were a nice tight fit against the bearing collar.
This was particularly easy because I had all the room in the world, I'm not so sure when still in the car, bare in mind that these are located at the back of the engine


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

That looks suspiciously similar to the variable intake arms that break on the V8.


----------



## Dangerrous (Sep 14, 2014)

Well the engine and box are back in the car, all new fluids filled as per vw specs including doing the ATF labourious filling stages.
The engine started straight away, first running lumpy, then on 5 then all smooth, it's never been so quiet. My partner confirmed that the car sounded like a modern diesel rather than an old tractor
The car is still on the stands, I noticed that my washer bottle was empty so I filled it up, only for it to drip back out, the sealing grommets were allowing water to seep out, I didn't have any to hand so some silicone sealer has done the job 

I've also bought some cheap uk made cross drilled and slotted (for visual effect rather than actual benefit) front discs and mintex pads, must admit they look the dogs danglies.
I've yet to test the new 6000k front xenon lights
Pictures to follow later
Darren


----------



## Dangerrous (Sep 14, 2014)

*All Done P back on the road *

So today's jobs were- doing the final level check and topping up of ATF, putting back all the wheel arch liners, bumper cover and underbelly protection

A point to note and not worry about- One of the outside temperature sensors is on the bumper, whilst checking the engine and proceeding with the ATF filling I had to have the engine running to pump the fluid around, at this point both fans run at full speed. Even when I had put everything back together the fans were still running and I had no temperature display in the instrument cluster, I had to reset all the DTC's in the HVAC module before it would take any measurements, once done the fans stopped and the outside temperature began to come to life in the instrument cluster.



While the car was up on the jacks and I was doing all the necessary checks etc.. The RED warning light come on the info panel with the message RUNNING GEAR FAULT WORKSHOP! Bear in mind I had put the car in jack up mode before stripping it, the batteries were disconnected for sometime. Maybe the car had forgotten it's previously set jack mode, anyway once I had put the car back on it's wheels and allowed it to level itself up, it went back to normal, I just have to drive it to get rid of the ESP warning mil light.



I hope to have a few years of trouble free mechanically related motoring


----------



## Dangerrous (Sep 14, 2014)

*What's the new transmission oil like ?*

So as a few of you may know I have been doing a lot of work to my P and one thing on the list was the transmission, although gear change etc was fine I had two noted issues with the box i) Torque clutch slip shudder and ii) gear change clutch slip shudder between 3 and 4th.

I searched around for possible answers, it seems that the forum has suggestions regarding worn hydraulic shuttle valves or sleeves; namely valve body and a dodgy torque converter, I expanded my search into the newer generation high efficient torque converters and found a large amount of info on the torque clutch slip scenario.
With the engine and box out I took the opportunity to completely flush out the old atf from every component, when auto box was back in I filled it with MANNOL AG55 transmission fluid. The oil seems to be the answer to a lot of associated niggles with an automatic transmissions, it's slip properties heavily relied upon.
My gearbox (as far as I'm aware) has done 165000 miles and from the state of the oil may never have had a fluid change, ZF look to recommend 60,000 miles between oil changes, this being reduced if the car does heavy work, ie. towing. 

I've lived with the car for a week putting it through it's paces with a very heavy right foot at times. The gearbox responds to the extent that I've forgotten about it, the only criticism is that when I decelerate very quickly to a stop and then start off there's a small almost unnoticeable jolt on pull away. 
So can I recommend this bulk buy oil, as opposed to the ridiculously expensive ZF lifeguard6, well it works for me and I can carry out an atf change every time I do an oil change and still be quids in.

Second note totally off the subject are my new xenon lights, another cheap ebay purchase, 6000k. Total transformation and very pleased, they are actually the same light density as my xenon full beam set, my original set were at 4100k and noticeably unimpressive, so if you're going to get a set buy the 6000k, these are a pleasing white light and not in the false looking blue tint spectrum.

Next on the list is my keyless entry system and a new key

Darren


----------



## Dangerrous (Sep 14, 2014)

*Injector seats and copper washers*

Always something to do on the car.....

When I took the engine out I replaced a one of the injector copper washer seals, well low and behold I started getting the faint exhaust gas odour again, having done this job on one of the injectors and reading up on the Mercedes bosch problems I bought myself an injector re-seat reamer tool kit and 6 new washers

Very good value at £18


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261683256940?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

And the copper washers


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290456229576?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

The job is possible with the engine lightly stripped, i.e. top of the air filter removed, and the other side required some of the intake manifold taking off and a couple of other bits, the main problem is not loosing the injector retaining nuts into the head  I lost two!!! So I had to take the rocker cover off and fish them out. This put another two hours on the job. I reamed out the seats and gave the injectors a clean up aswell, all in all not a bad job to do. I suppose it was about six hours work including taking off the rocker cover
End result -no fumes in the cabin-
D


----------



## kicku (Apr 8, 2018)

Great photos, very helpfull.
Missing the photos about emptying the converter of atf oil.

So, how it sounds now the chains / tensioners after all that time? It started to rattle again? If yes, how much was running without doing it?
I have to do the same labour on my P., same on one injector (it's leaking diesel into cylinder :facepalm: ) ...and maybe egr to clean...

I understood that this topic it's from 2015...hope Dangerrous will find a few minutes to answer


----------

