# Maintenance costs for the Phaeton



## americanpolice (Mar 24, 2008)

Hi,
Just doing more research. With a baby on the way and a house with heating oil through the roof, last thing I need is repair headaches.
I'm reading tons of positive comments about the quality and reliability of this car. My question is how much do routine wear and tear repair/parts cost for the Phaeton. I suspect I won't be able to just go down to Mavis or Mieneke for the $89 brake job or $24 oil change.
Thanks again for your input.


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

VW or not, the Phaeton is an AWD luxury sedan. Costs should be in line with what you'd expect to pay to keep any other German (Audi, BMW, MB) luxury sedan in good operating order.
PC


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## VWGlf00GL (Feb 14, 2005)

Hello,
I believe normal wear tear: Oil Change, Tires, Brakes, etc, are items the owner needs to take care of. Depending on the mileage of the car, you'll want to look at an extended warranty (I did).
I purchase my Phaeton 29 days ago, had it a week I had the following problems:
1. Driver side window would not go up or down properly:
Window Regulator and Switch replaced per the warranty I purchased.
2. Car started to overheat: Dropped the car off, they kept it for almost a week and replaced the timing belt and timing belt tensioner. 
Picked up car, drove it home, started to overheat again. I had the car towed from my house to the Dealer again. 
Third Visit; after driving again, they replaced the thermostat and water pump. Driving the car again, the tech said the temperature was just not right (read 240-260). He said everything was replaced and the cooling hoses are fine (per an infrared gun).
He called Phaeton Tech Support and they stated he had to do a "capacitive discharge" to the system. As a result this result the temp. gauge and it's not playing with my emotions anymore. It's pegged at 200 degrees, where it should be.
All this work was done within three weeks of owning the car, I had to driver three loaners from the dealership during this time (that last loaner 2008 Golf GTI was pretty nice!). I highly recommend an extended warranty if you can get one in NY.
I had about $4,000+ done in repair and labor, the warranty was $2,995 for 4 year or 50,000 miles (which ever is first).
On a side note, I purchased gift cards for my dealer for those who have helped me out and we're kind during the whole process. They were completely shocked about my gratitude.
My dealer knows me as the gift car guy, now.. lol..


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Maintenance costs for the Phaeton (americanpolice)*


_Quote, originally posted by *americanpolice* »_Just doing more research. With a baby on the way and a house with heating oil through the roof, last thing I need is repair headaches.

Keep in mind -- even though you may be purchasing the vehicle in the high 20s, low 30s, you're still maintaining a 75-90k vehicle and expectations should be in line with that. At the end of the day, it's a $76,000 German car, regardless of how much you paid to acquire it.


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## Stinky999 (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: Maintenance costs for the Phaeton (americanpolice)*

It is really hard to get credible data regarding Phaetons. There just isn't enough of them out there. As others have said, plan on getting an extended warranty. My experience over the last 18 mos of ownership has been quite good, but the risk is still substantially higher than your typical Asian car. If I had bought a used LS430, I may have been willing to chance it without the warranty. I wouldn't do that with a European or American car.
Just add $2K to the price when your looking at them.


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## itsallbeendonebefore (May 13, 2007)

*Re: Maintenance costs for the Phaeton (americanpolice)*

you have PM


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## itsallbeendonebefore (May 13, 2007)

*Re: (VWGlf00GL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWGlf00GL* »_ I had about $4,000+ done in repair and labor, the warranty was $2,995 for 4 year or 50,000 miles (which ever is first).


do u mean that the 4k was covered under warranty or was it only $2,995?
getting back on topic, i am not sure anyone can give u what the maintenance costs are going to be. it all depends on what decides to go wrong in the car. just remember that the repair is being done for a 75k car. if it gets out of warranty, make sure to check out all resources before going to the dealer to get something replaced...it could be a DIY item and costs significantly less.
Example: if one of the xenon lights (low beam) go out, just get another bulb for $100-$150 and install it yourself instead of taking it to the dealer and have them charge u another $200 for labor which will make it $400 (with tax and surcharge







) when u could have done it for $150 tops saving u $250. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by itsallbeendonebefore at 5:10 PM 3-26-2008_


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## VWGlf00GL (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: (itsallbeendonebefore)*

do u mean that the 4k was covered under warranty or was it only $2,995?
I had 4K in repairs done (give or take a couple hundred) thus far. The Supreme Warranty I paid for the car was $2,995 for 4 years or 50,000 miles (whichever was first). Does that clarify? Sorry for the confusion..


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## itsallbeendonebefore (May 13, 2007)

*Re: (VWGlf00GL)*

yes thanx VWGlf00GL, and i am hoping all that repair was covered?


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## VWGlf00GL (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: (itsallbeendonebefore)*

Hey there, yes all the repair was covered, thank god... I had some serious problems with overheating







.. - Adrian


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## mhoepfin (Dec 20, 2007)

Pretty much everything is expensive on the Phaeton, and the warranty relatively inexpensive comparatively.
I think you'd get the same advice about any car in the Phaeton's class, ie. 7-series, S class, A8, etc. You aren't going to find too many people driving those without a warranty either.


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

And if you think heating oil is expensive, remember the V8 drinks Premium and although the W12 will run on mid grade the extra cost of maintaining it makes the difference meaningless.
Keep in mind there is a new generation Phaeton coming out in about 14 months that will be a lot more pocketbook friendly! (and yes it is going to come to the US, don't ask me how I know).


_Modified by murphybaileysam at 5:45 PM 3-26-2008_


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## sandydennis111 (Dec 27, 2007)

*Re: (VWGlf00GL)*

Was the Phaeton you bought the one from the Stevens Creek VW, the Sunnyvale VW or the Bob Lewis VW?
Curious, I test drove all three.


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## VWGlf00GL (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: (sandydennis111)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sandydennis111* »_Was the Phaeton you bought the one from the Stevens Creek VW, the Sunnyvale VW or the Bob Lewis VW?
Curious, I test drove all three."

Was that for me sandy? If it was, I purchased my Phaeton from Stevens Creek VW.


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## GS340 (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: Maintenance costs for the Phaeton (americanpolice)*

For those in the Dulles VA area Lindsay VW is offereing Lifetime oil changes for $129.00 until 3/31/08... Doesn't matter if you own a Phaeton or a Bug. I can bring the phaeton in every 5000 miles for a oil change...


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

I'd check the fine print on that one REAL close!


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: (murphybaileysam)*

We have some of those in our area -- they use non-OEM filters and recycled oil.
The bottom line is that, as with everything else, *you get what you pay for*. 
Also, keep in mind (I've said this before as well), the purchase price is just a small part of car ownership. If you can't afford to maintain it properly, then it's not the car for you, regardless of how big a deal you're getting on the purchase.


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## GS340 (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: (murphybaileysam)*

I did ask. Don't think I'm going to go cheap on oil and filters. Heck I just invested $12,000 for a new engine for the vette. oil isn't something I go cheap on.
He said VW filters and Synthetic oil per VW Phaeton specifications.


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## GS340 (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: (chrisj428)*

recycled oil? I've never seen or heard of recycled oil being sold. brands... ??? Or are you talking about taking it out of one car and putting it right into another? 

EDIT: Now you have me a little worried. I e-mailed the service writer since I'm in germany this week. Plus I'll have his responce from his dealership e-mail address in writting. Don't think I jump on this deal right away. I did pause and he said I could pay 129 now or pay xx (can't remember how much their oil change was) per visit. it's all the same.




_Modified by GS340 at 3:53 PM 3-28-2008_


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: (GS340)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GS340* »_I did pause and he said I could pay 129 now or pay xx (can't remember how much their oil change was) per visit. it's all the same.

Ok, let's look at this logically for just a second.
If you figure oil at the dealer is, say $5/quart x 8 quarts, that's $40.
The filter has to be somewhere between $10-15, so let's say $14.
There's going to be a _minimum_ of 1/2 hour labor at $80 per (and that's very light), so there's $40.
That's $94 for the oil change before tax & disposal fees.
How they're going to stay in business offering lifetime $94 oil changes for $130 is beyond my ability to comprehend -- I've heard of "loss leaders" before, but this takes the cake. Are they willing to sell me the program and just ship me the oil & filter with no labor involved whenever I need it?
Judge Judy would say that if it doesn't sound like it makes sense, it probably doesn't. I'm a skeptic. Caveat emptor.


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_How they're going to stay in business offering lifetime $94 oil changes for $130 is beyond my ability to comprehend -- I've heard of "loss leaders" before, but this takes the cake. Are they willing to sell me the program and just ship me the oil & filter with no labor involved whenever I need it?
Judge Judy would say that if it doesn't sound like it makes sense, it probably doesn't. I'm a skeptic. Caveat emptor.

Chris, this _is _a "loss leader" but first realize that 99.8% of the cars this will attract will not be Phaetons so the "loss" will be less. And the loss is really based on the dealer's cost for the oil change which is a lot less, perhaps $10 - $15 on average plus labor for most VWs. 
I'm sure the theory here, whether it works or not, is to build traffic and do "free" inspections of the vehicles which will uncover more lucrative repairs. There is nothing wrong with this practice as long as the issues reported are actual. Think of how many repairs they will do on a car over the lifetime of each program.
I suspect a similar thing goes on at the quickie oil change chains as they aren't making any money on $17.95 oil change specials. How many people get out of one without a pitch for an air filter, wiper blades, or something else?
Steven


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## stjarna (Aug 18, 2005)

*Re: Maintenance costs for the Phaeton (americanpolice)*

Ray,
With a baby on the way and a house you gotta pay to own and heat, might I suggest a more modest car? 
I just spent $5,800 on repairs to my Phaeton W12 in the past week. My VW Platinum extended warranty did not cover these repairs because these were repairs to wear and tear items. Also, the extended warranty does not cover labor and these were labor-intensive repairs. Notably, these were items that are the same on both the V8 and W12 models. 
Unless you are comfortable dropping that kind of change on a car repair at a moment's notice, I would advise you to consider a less luxurious, less rare, and more practical car than a used VW Phaeton. Fortunately, you have many wonderful alternatives out there from which to choose.
Kind regards,
Logan.


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## GS340 (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: (car_guy)*

I clearly see they will loose money but they will make up for it other repairs by having customers come back for an oil change. As car guy said. I'll post what the service writer says and I'll put the phaeton on my lift at home and pull the filter... Make sure it's a VW filter. I also send a sample of the oil to blackstone labs for analysis... which i do routinely for my track car.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Maintenance costs for the Phaeton (stjarna)*


_Quote, originally posted by *stjarna* »_...I just spent $5,800 on repairs to my Phaeton W12 in the past week. ... Unless you are comfortable dropping that kind of change on a car repair at a moment's notice, I would advise you to consider a less luxurious, less rare, and more practical car...

Words of Wisdom.
Logan has hit the nail right on the head. Cars that cost $70 to $110K new, which is what the V8 and W12 Phaetons cost new, are expensive to maintain. As Chris has said before, it doesn't matter what you paid for the car, the benchmark to use is what the vehicle cost new.
I could buy a new Cessna 172 (a little piston-engine plane that seats 4) for $300K, or I could buy a used but perfectly serviceable Boeing 727 for $250K. Will the ongoing maintenance and upkeep expenses be similar because the purchase prices are similar? No way. The maintenance cost of the Boeing will reflect its original price when new, which was (in today's dollars) about $50 million.
Michael


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

But in the Cessna you couldn't tell the passengers to put their trays up and their seats in the upright position prior to landing!


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## murphybaileysam (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: Maintenance costs for the Phaeton (stjarna)*

Curious as to just which "wear and tear" items set you back that amount of cash?







I know what tires, brakes and maintenance costs but can't figure the other items amounting to that much. Also how many miles do you have on your car?


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## stjarna (Aug 18, 2005)

*Re: Maintenance costs for the Phaeton (murphybaileysam)*

murphybaileysam,
See here for some of the parts and costs involved: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=2
Cheers,
Logan.


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Maintenance costs for the Phaeton (stjarna)*

I'll scan the invoice from Friday, but my cost for an oil change on my car was $208.


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## Jack Orr (Mar 15, 2000)

*Re: Maintenance costs for the Phaeton (chrisj428)*

I had my last free oil change in the Phaeton 2 weeks ago.
I had my first oil change in the Sonata last week. $21.99 total incl tax etc. 
That's why I got that car. Cheap, and all I need to go to church and to the store and out to eat.


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## papa_vw (Oct 17, 2005)

*Phaeton Maintenance Cost Question*

When I first saw the Volkswagen Phaeton shortly after it first came to the US, I was impressed with how beautiful a car it was. However, a car in the $70,000 price range was completely out of my league financially. Now I see that a good used Phaeton can be had in the $20,000 to low $30,000 range.
My concern is that everyone in this forum who owns one seems to either lease it or own it with a long extended warranty. Either way, it sounds like most of the owners here plan on returning or selling their car at the end of the lease or warranty period. Doesn't any one plan on keeping it and repairing it as needed?
So my question. Is the Phaeton any more expensive to maintain than some other foreign luxury cars like the Mercedes, Audi, or Lexus? 
I know I cringe everytime we take my wife's 2001 Mercedes SLK320 to the Mercedes dealer for service. It's not cheap to keep, but it's a nice car and keeping it up is a lot less than a new car payment. Just trying to get some perspective on this as so many here seem very reluctant to keep their Phaetons long term. Your input regarding your maintenance experiences and costs are most appreciated. Thank you.


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## trekguy (Aug 16, 2004)

*Re: Phaeton Maintenance Cost Question (papa_vw)*

Right now, I am grappling with the same concern. My virtually trouble-free 04 Phaeton will be out of warranty 01-01-09, so I don't know weather to sell or trade or keep.
FYI
rear wheel bearings are around $1000
timing belt costs about the same as well
For me, it is a once-in-a-lifetime car to treasure and own for 83000 miles.


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## mhoepfin (Dec 20, 2007)

I think for most people the engine is not the concern. It's the suspension, electrical, etc.
The extended warranty or CPO coverage is worth the additional cost.
I'm at 52,000 miles with the CPO warranty covering me for another 22,000 or 2 years. After that I will probably move on, not just due to the maintenance costs, but I would expect that finding a good dealer to service may be tough. There were only about 3,000 Phaetons sold in NA, so as time goes on, there is less incentive for dealers to continue to have certified mechanics and other personnel required to maintain them.
The Phaeton is a great car and a treat to own and drive, but service does become a concern for me down the road.


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## udaymohan (Nov 8, 2007)

I have been running a 1yr tally of all expenses thus far on my 04 and should be putting some details up soon.
Hopefully that helps you guys out. And in my case the car is out of warranty due to mileage.


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## udaymohan (Nov 8, 2007)

Ok I took a look at my recordings and here is what I have 2weeks shy of 1 year.
Total Mileage: 175K+
Avg Fuel Economy : 6.92 km/ltr
Avg Fuel Cost : $1.32/ltr
Total Fuel Used: 2853.31 ltrs
Total Fuel Expense: $3925.74
Repairs : $3446.62
- One Tire
- Rear Bearing replacement
- Tensor and Belt Replacement
- Type 3 Service
- Driver Side Regulator replacement
Total Cost (Fuel/Repairs/Maint) - $7516.34
Cost of Ownership - $4.28/100 km
Again keep in mind it's probably not 100% accurate but all the major work and 98% of fill ups have been recorded.
Cheers


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Phaeton Maintenance Cost Question (papa_vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *papa_vw* »_So my question. Is the Phaeton any more expensive to maintain than some other foreign luxury cars like the Mercedes, Audi, or Lexus? 

Generally speaking, no, the maintenance costs are the same as any other car with the same original retail selling price.
The key issue, which many people overlook because of the current low price of used Phaetons, is that maintenance costs on ANY automobile will always be proportionate to the price of the NEW vehicle - not proportionate to whatever price the purchaser paid for the used car.
Consider this: I could buy a new Cessna 172 aircraft (a small 4 passenger plane) for $250,000, or, I could buy a used Boeing 727 for the same price (the desert is full of them). The acquisition price is the same for both - but will the operational maintenance costs be the same? Not likely.


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## Son of Apollo (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: Phaeton Maintenance Cost Question (PanEuropean)*

Hmmm... I think I understand what you're saying. So in a few years, as retail sales of new Civics, Corollas and Elantras continue along, the desert will become littered with our rusted-out, miled-out, rotting Phaetons.
Deep.


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

*Re: (udaymohan)*

Prior to obtaining my recently purchased CPO Phaeton, I recognized that fuel costs, VW prescribed maintenance, and replacement parts would be quite expensive. The unknown factor was of course the frequency and magnitude of repairs. If it were not for the CPO coverage, I would not have purchased my Phaeton. The 2 year/24k warranty gave me the comfort to determine how well the car was driven and maintained. A check of service records by the original owner, indicated very little repairs other than the TSB work and new pads and rotors. So the first 4 years have been quite good for the original owner. If it becomes a money pit and problem prone, I guess I could muster the strength to part with it towards the end of my warranty period - although it will be tough. 
In your cost analysis I noted only 2 true repairs, Rear wheel bearing(s) and driver side window regulator. I was uncertain whether the tensioner and belt replacement was for the timing belt or the accessory belt. If it was a timing belt, that is an expected regular maintenance item at 80k service. However, all in all I would say these repair bills for a vehicle with a little age is good. Keep in mind, if you were driving some cars that are much less refined, you may not have noticed the wheel bearing noise. The other noises common to less refined cars such as, road, wind, chasis, etc. might mask the bearing noise.
As someone mentioned the suspension may be the number one "fear" item for most owners. Engines and transmissions are also brutally expensive. However, it is my hope that through excellent care and maintenace these items will be robust and trouble free for 150-200k miles. Many modern cars will achieve that. 
From what I garner from this forum, Phaeton's are quite reliable and don't seem to have any glaring trouble spots. The most frequent complaint I have seen concerns the TPMS. We as a group are lucky if that is our most frequent problem.


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: Phaeton Maintenance Cost Question (papa_vw)*

I plan to keep my Phaeton indefinitely. So far (a little over 3 yrs and 44kmiles) it has proven quite reliable. I do have an extended warranty. It is a complex and expensive car to maintain, but not impossible provided one takes the time to become familiar with its technical features, especially on the electronic side. The real limiting factor for me will be availability of spare parts: over the years I have had no trouble maintaining my 17yr old Acura Legend Coupe, but then, many more were sold than Phaetons. 
Stefano


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## stevieB (Jul 15, 2006)

maintaniance prices are Ok , but repair cost are huge due to the amount of work involved in doing even the smallest of jobs.
how many times has it been mentioned that engines have to come out for minor part replacements


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## papa_vw (Oct 17, 2005)

I appreciate all the feedback. While I really like the car, I'm not sure I want to run the risks associated with them (high cost of repairs and lack of qualified personnel in the dealerships to maintain them). I experienced some of that, although probably to a lesser degree, with the 2000 VW Eurovan I used to own. Great van that I had up until September 2006 but it wasn't inexpensive when it came time for maintenance and repairs either.
I think I'm leaning toward another new Passat with full warranty. Either that or just sticking with the 04 Passat that I have for a couple more years. 


_Modified by papa_vw at 8:20 AM 10-26-2008_


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## Stinky999 (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: Phaeton Maintenance Cost Question (papa_vw)*

Let's consider the Phaeton vs. LS430 question. I haven't seen data comparing the reliability of a Phaeton to a LS430, at least not statistically credible data. However, I have seen reliability data for brands, including VW and Lexus (JD Power, Consumer Reports, etc.). The brand data clearly shows a difference, with Lexus towards the top (if not the top), and VW towards the bottom. Does this mean that every Phaeton will have more problems than every LS430? Of course not. It just means that a VW is more likely to have a problem than a Lexus. Just like a 16 yr old is more likely to get into an auto accident than a 40 yr old. Some 16 yr olds won't have accidents, and some 40 yr olds will (like my wife!). If your a betting man (or woman), you would put your money on the Phaeton having more problems than the LS430. If you're not comfortable with that risk, you can transfer it to a warranty company, for a price, or get a different car.
For me, a slightly used Phaeton represented an outstanding value, even with the cost of the extended warranty factored in. I am very happy with my decision two years in.


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## papa_vw (Oct 17, 2005)

*Re: Phaeton Maintenance Cost Question (Stinky999)*

I appreciate hearing your perspective on that. I'm on the fence now. My heart say yes, go for the Phaeton. My head says no. 
The prices now seems like such a great value on a wonderful car but after discussing it with my wife, I think we're going to hang onto our 04 Passat (which is paid for) for a couple more years given this economy right now.


_Modified by papa_vw at 4:14 PM 10-26-2008_


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## Stinky999 (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: Phaeton Maintenance Cost Question (papa_vw)*

Can't argue your logic. The best car is one that's paid for. Let's face it, the '04 Passat looks an awful lot like the Phaeton anyway


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## uchiha14 (Oct 14, 2010)

*Looking to buy a used Phaeton..Reliability?*

Hey all, 
I'm looking at purchasing a used phaeton for my aunt and uncle. We've found one with 50k miles.. the question i have is, in your opinion, is the phaeton reliable? The reason I ask is I have a MB s550 and it is always having electrical problems..etc. It's not a problem since the car is under warranty and is paid for by a company. However, my aunt and uncle would buy this phaeton out of warranty and any costs would have to be paid for by them. 
Thought I'd get your opinions on whether or not buying a phaeton is a smart decisions as to buying something like an equus or a used 7-series. Thanks!


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## udaymohan (Nov 8, 2007)

Hi uchiha14, 

In my experience most high end luxury cars such as this including the BMW 7 series etc are expensive to maintain outside of warranty regardless. The car is fairly reliable however, like all European cars (IMO) they do suffer from electrical glitches and this is just part and parcel of the ownership. 

I have had mine for a while and for the most part it has been very reliable, however when it does break the cost is painful hehehehe. 

Hope that helps a bit 
Uday


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## uchiha14 (Oct 14, 2010)

Thanks for the advice! I understand that in general, complicated cars like this will require more maintenance than say, a toyota. I guess what i'm asking is how much, on average, can they expect to pay for to maintain/fix it per year? are there parts that break frequently? is the engine itself reliable?


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## Aren Jay (Jun 9, 2009)

A Phaeton is a car that needs a warranty. See if you can buy a third party or VW warranty for the Phaeton. Otherwise it can be very expensive to fix. (more than the car is worth) See 10 year vet on this site if you can get a VW warranty. 

Can't seem to find any of his posts...?


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## jimay (Aug 1, 2006)

Aren doesn't own a Phaeton. I still do. I'm keeping mine. I don't think I can afford to replace this level of car for what it would cost to keep it. 

Considering the tonnage of technology in the car, it is amazingly reliable. The few common problems are well known to all on this board. Some, like the shocks, are of VW's making and they seem to have shown some willingness to take care of an inventory problem that's entirely of their making. 

The used price on these cars seems to have a huge take-out of dollars related to potential maintenance issues. It's simple economics. I still think the cost takeout on these cars is larger than the likely actual costs. That doesn't mean you won't have to pay through the nose from time to time. It means if you got a used Mercedes/Lexus/Mercury with similar candy, your car+maintenance costs would be higher. 

What you propose to do for your Aunt and Uncle seems like a nice thing to do. You should be complimented for your generosity. Now let me talk you out of doing it. This is an interesting inversion of the question "would you buy a car _from_ a relative?" I bought a Ford Bronco years ago from my wife's mother's cousin. Never again. The car was actually a fine car and the deal was fair, but it created a really wierd vibe every time we saw them. I was warned... I wouldn't do it for a car or even a bicycle not for love not for money.


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## 53 0val (Feb 23, 2010)

jimay said:


> Aren doesn't own a Phaeton. I still do. I'm keeping mine. I don't think I can afford to replace this level of car for what it would cost to keep it.
> 
> Considering the tonnage of technology in the car, it is amazingly reliable. The few common problems are well known to all on this board. Some, like the shocks, are of VW's making and they seem to have shown some willingness to take care of an inventory problem that's entirely of their making.
> 
> ...


 
Excellent advice.....................I wouldn't sell a car to a relative for the same reasons.


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## petermueller (Oct 20, 2006)

*Phaetons are great cars*

This question of reliability comes up often and I'm sure that experiences vary widely, but let me give you mine. 

I own 2 2005 Phaetons. Both were bought used with about 10k miles on them. One car is used by my wife and it has 40K miles on it and has never had any problems-period. My car has 119k miles on it and the only repair has been 1 wheel bearing. 

The cars do go in for standard service and I do replace wear items. 

They are the best cars I have ever owned and that includes many Mercedes and one Bentley Eight. 

Would I sell one to a relative? No, it would be my luck that something terrible would go wrong the next day!


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## aimhii (Oct 5, 2009)

*Sell ya mine*



uchiha14 said:


> Hey all,
> I'm looking at purchasing a used phaeton for my aunt and uncle. We've found one with 50k miles.. the question i have is, in your opinion, is the phaeton reliable? The reason I ask is I have a MB s550 and it is always having electrical problems..etc. It's not a problem since the car is under warranty and is paid for by a company. However, my aunt and uncle would buy this phaeton out of warranty and any costs would have to be paid for by them.
> Thought I'd get your opinions on whether or not buying a phaeton is a smart decisions as to buying something like an equus or a used 7-series. Thanks!


Sell ya mine ....PM Me


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## Aren Jay (Jun 9, 2009)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3648920-The-NEW-VW-RealDriver-extended-contract/page14

found the link.

talk to him Chris and see if you can get a warranty if you can't go third party, Phaetons need warranties unless of course your a VW mechanic.


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## phateon (Mar 13, 2009)

I have had my CPO Phaeton 2004 V8 for one and a half years. I love this car!! When it is in for repair I use my son's car since he is in college. Maintenance costs are high. Make sure there is a VW dealerhip with a Phaeton trained tech close to your relatives. Get an extended warranrty from Chris. At 50000 miles soon it will be necessary to replace all 5 TPMS sernsors at $1000 parts and labor. The batteries last 6 years and one cannot replace with new batteries. New tires are at least $200 each!


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## Rowayton (May 29, 2004)

I've had my V8 Phaeton for almost five years now and have found it to be remarkably reliable (it has every gadget offered). I plan to keep mine until the wheels fall off. Keep in mind that a Phaeton is an entry level Bentley in reality (Bentley is a VW product) and certain parts and service will be expensive (no more so than any of the cars in this class). These cars require a VW Certified tech when service is needed. As stated, make sure a certified tech is available in your area if a purchase is in your future. Only about 3,200 Phaeton's were ever imported to all of North America yet the car is still being manufactured in Dresden, Germany and is selling pretty well in the rest of the world. US badge snobbery and dreadful marketing killed it here - not poor product. The American public could never get a grip on the concept that a Phaeton was a car for the person that likes to wear their designer cloths with the labels on the inside. This site has documented answers and photos to question you didn't know existed. Most VW certified techs use this site and the VW service manuals if service is needed on a Phaeton. This site is that good.
By the way, the Tire Rack price for 5 TPMS sensors is almost half of what VW charges for the parts. If you think you or a relitive would enjoy driving a remarkable and almost totally invisible luxury car take a very close look at a well maintained used Phaeton. As Clarkson stated in a Top Gear review of the Phaeton, "The attention to detail on a Phaeton is staggering!" and we all know Clarkson doesn't like anything.


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

Hi uchiha14:

I have had my 2004 Phaeton for about 2.5 years and have really enjoyed it. It was purchased from a VW dealer for $25k and came with a CPO warranty. i would not have purchased the car, at least at that price, without the warranty. I have not had many problems with my Phaeton but those that I did have would have been painful without the warranty. My transmission has been replaced and I had about a 20 hour repair on HVAC vents and flaps. However, I am still optimistic that the car will be "good" for many years to come. I do expect a periodic financial hit from such things as the air suspension, alternator, starter, and frontend work among other things. However, VW has been helping with air suspension replacement on the early models and other noted components seem pretty robust.

I would guess my car is worth around $15k at this time. It drives and basically looks like "new". To replace it with anything that I might like nearly as much as the Phaeton would cost $40k and upwards. At the lower end I know I would give up a lot by replacing the Phaeton. So I figure I would have to pay about $25k plus my Phaeton to drive an alternative I would like. 

So I'm playing the lottery and keeping my Phaeton which is now out of any warranty. I do maintain mine per VW requirements at a minimum and only drive it about 6k miles per year. This forum is invaluable. I find it's greatest value is in avoiding repairs by knowing where problem areas are. This includes such things as keeping sunroof drains clean, making sure the plenum area is free of debris, and keeping the wiring loom and conduit working freely in the trunk lid. Any of these areas can cost a thousand or more to remedy a problem if ignored but can possibly be averted by owner maintenace. 

If you are lucky in finding a "good" Phaeton your relatives will surely put you in their will but if you are a bit unlucky you'll wish you had recommended a Honda Accord.


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

For those interested, there is an 04 V8 here in CA advertised with 36k for $23.5k.
I'm not affiliated with the seller, just thought that low mileage examples are getting harder to find.

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/scz/ctd/2008339342.html


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## 04phaeton (Feb 19, 2009)

In my case, not very reliable.

I purchased an 04 2.5 years ago with 70,000 km. I now have 173,000km.

I've had just about everything replaced but here are the major ones:

- headlight assemblies ($2,000 under warranty)
- shifter ($1500 under warranty)
- new transmission 2 weeks ago ($10,000 under warranty)
- prop shaft (I think $500-1000 under warranty)
- kessy module ($900 under warranty)
- center and passenger vents and servos (not sure but under warranty)
- windshield wiper motors (under warranty)
- drivers window regulator ($900 under warranty)
- aerial and remote ($500 under warranty)

I've gone through 3 sets of tires and just did my 3rd brake job (STAY AWAY FROM CERAMIC EBC brake pads as I warped my rotors and just replaced everything as a result).

I've also replaced the timing belt, water pump, and thermostat (it died on me too) - this is a $2,000 service but I lucked out as thermostat was replaced under warranty and I did timing belt at the same time saving me tons of labour.

Thank goodness I still have the extended warranty from 10year vet until almost 190,000km. Best $3,500 I ever spent.

My total warranty work is up over $30,000 in the 2 years I've owned the vehicle.

But having said that, although all the visits for service is a pain in the butt, there is no other car like it and I will likely keep it well past the warranty expires.


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## 53 0val (Feb 23, 2010)

How did you get your headlight assembly replaced? What happened to them?


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## papa_vw (Oct 17, 2005)

As nice as the Phaeton's are, the cost of repairs is really rather ridiculous. They may be comparable with some of the higher end Mercedes and BMWs but it's still expensive. :screwy:

Buy them a new 2011 Volkswagen Jetta with a warranty and enjoy some peace of mind. :thumbup:


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

53 0val said:


> How did you get your headlight assembly replaced? What happened to them?


I had one headlight assembly replaced because it was crazing (small cracks you can only see at an angle and only if you really look-up close). Now my taillights have them. It's difficult to see even if you are less than a foot away.

Damon


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## Jack Orr (Mar 15, 2000)

You mention the possibility of buying them an Equus. That would be my earnest recommendation.

My Genesis has had no problems at all in about 12 mos and 10K miles. But that isn't the real issue, IMO.

The fact is that many of the systems in the Phaeton are years old. The Nav, for example is old world and nowhere near as good as the new DVD based systems. And, so on. On the other hand, the quality of materials is somewhat better in the Phaeton, the sound is some better, and the air system is much better than the Genesis.

I would assume the Equus has better materials , etc, than the Genesis. The V8 in the Genesis is probably superior to the V8 in the Phaeton, but the W12 in a class of it's own.

The reliability of the Equus will be super, I would bet, and they are bringing out a somewhat bigger V8 next year and I would wait for that. On a recent road trip in the Genesis, I got 25-26 mpg, at 75 mph. The Equus is heavier and probably would do a bit less, but still better than a Phaeton by far.

You pays yo money and takes your choice.


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## swphaetonowner (Oct 12, 2010)

*Used Phaeton reliability*

Having bought three used Phaetons I can only relay my experiences which might be of some use. My first was a 5 ltr V10 which I got rid of with 243k miles on the clock. Yes, I did have to pay out for a turbo relacement which is now known to be a common fault on that engine but apart from that and a few sensors understandably wearing out I can't complain.

I now own two 3ltr long wheel bases, one having done over 100k (and the only problem so far is the boot lid motor having to be replaced as its another known fault). My most recent purchase has just turned 50k and is ok so far although I have to be honest and say that I don't think the gearbox is completely right so I'm having it checked out before it goes out of warranty.

I use these cars for my chauffeuring business so reliability is a must for me. The reality is that most of the luxury car marques have problems and in my experience the Phaetons are no worse than the likes of BMW or Merc, etc. The massive difference is the purchase price of used Phaetons against any similar cars, (often with a far inferior spec) so I would personally go for the big VW every time. Maybe I've just been lucky but the Phaetons have given me far less trouble than the two Mercs I owned previously. Just be sure to find a good independent VW specialist who has a Phaeton-trained master tech...that helps enormously as they know what faults might crop up and can advise accordingly.

Hope this helps if I'm not too late!


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## 04phaeton (Feb 19, 2009)

53 Oval,

I don't remember why we had to change the headlight assemblies (almost 2 years ago).

I almost forgot that my nav system had to be replaced as well (it died too).


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## Stinky999 (Sep 14, 2006)

I would not own any European car out of warranty, at least some kind of warranty. For example, I had a Range Rover and a Mazda Millenia before the Phaeton. I estimate the annual average cost of maintennace and repairs (includes extended warranty paid repairs) for these three vehicles as follows, Rover = $2500, Phaeton = $1200, Millenia = $250. I had/have warranties for the Rover and Phaeton, not needed with a Mazda (or any other Asian car).

My Phaeton has had most of the typical maladies discussed on this forum. In contrast, I owned the Millenia for about 5 yrs, 60K, other than oil changes, the only items replaced were tires and brake pads. It NEVER went in for ANY issue at all (same as with a Miata I had previously).

Don't get me wrong, I love the Phaeton. Best car I have ever owned, by a large margin. But I will sell it before my warranty expires at the end of 2012.

Good luck!


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## j3w (Feb 7, 2012)

*Should you buy a Phaeton? A warning to prospective buyers re: reliability and repair costs.*

I recently purchased a low miles (42,000), very well taken care of V8. Full service records, immaculate shape. In the few months I've owned it I've put 7000 miles on it and $11,000 in repairs into it.

If you cannot buy this car with a full CPO, platinum warranty, do not even think about it.

I have no idea what I was thinking buying this thing. It's wiped out a significant portion of my savings and I can hardly bear to see it sitting there in the driveway mocking me. If I were to sell it or trade it in at this point it would be at a steep loss.

Buying a Phaeton was probably the worst business decision I've made in my life so far.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Sounds to me as if you got a bargain! If it was a 2004, you probably paid about $15k for it, plus $11k in getting it up to scratch, so you're now driving around in a $90k car with 42k on the clock for the price of a Golf.


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## m444lyx (May 14, 2012)

j3w said:


> I recently purchased a low miles (42,000), very well taken care of V8. Full service records, immaculate shape. In the few months I've owned it I've put 7000 miles on it and $11,000 in repairs into it.
> 
> If you cannot buy this car with a full CPO, platinum warranty, do not even think about it.
> 
> ...


What went wrong with it? Where was it repaired?


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

j3w said:


> I recently purchased a low miles (42,000), very well taken care of V8. Full service records, immaculate shape. In the few months I've owned it I've put 7000 miles on it and $11,000 in repairs into it.
> 
> If you cannot buy this car with a full CPO, platinum warranty, do not even think about it.
> 
> ...


You did get a very tough break on that transmission problem.

The thermostat problem, while labor-intensive, is DIY-friendly if you do that sort of thing.

I bought my Phaeton knowing she'd be a "high maintenance bitch". I like to tinker, I'd already had and used VCDS for several years beforehand, already had access to service manuals and other resources, and so we're a good fit. Even so, I did pay up for an extended warranty because a used car quite often gets sold for a reason, and that reason might not be apparent when you buy it. I would probably not be as happy with my decision if I wasn't doing most maintenance and repair work on my own.

To each his own. I think it's reasonable to put it out there (again) that you're buying a car that went for $70-$100k, and the repair bills are going to match that, not the depreciated value. I still think they're great cars so long as you go in with your eyes open.

What brought on today's outburst? :laugh: Not something else broken, I hope?

Jason


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## pabraham100 (Nov 8, 2011)

*I second that Jason Young tyhought on that.*

I bought a used 2004 V8 63K miles on it for 17K (sounds high) in 2011. Since then I did a complete oil change (100 USD in parts) transmission fluid change (650 USD) injection clean (50 USD in parts) headlights (500 in parts) and wheel electronics (850) and a navigation anntenae (250) and airfilters (50).

Or about 2700 USD in cost and plenty of hours under the hood. I can tell I was digusted with the previous owners and dealerships lack of proper maintenance even though the records showed the car be serviced every 6 months.

Bottom line my total investment was about 21K

However, once I fixed the car it rides beautifully like a 100K+ car. Better than the Audi A6 I was eyeing prior to this. The engineering is great but it was not designed keeping the service techs point of view


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

How did you manage to do the transmission fluid change for $650?? And why would the car have been serviced every 6 months?


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## sjd9346 (Apr 21, 2004)

*Maintenance Costs*

Two days ago, I spent about $2,200.00 at my local dealer replacing two front headlight bulbs, doing the 50k service, and front rotors/pads (and I had the serpentine belt replaced since the front bumper was off) and replacing a side moulding piece that got caught on a curb when opening the car door. It is just part of the cost of ownership of this type of car. I bought it with about 15,000 miles on it and I have not spent that much to keep it maintained in perfect condition, on a relative basis, given the fact that the window sticker on the car was about $120,000 including tax etc. in 2006. I enjoy each and every minute of driving this car, which here in the U.S. is, I guess, an exotic. 

Steve


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## Victor R (Jan 7, 2010)

I have previously chimed in on costs/warranties, but feel it might be helpful to repeat myself on this thread.

The Phaeton was an expensive car when new. Repair costs of cars, in general, parallel costs of cars when new - both replacement parts and labor, in my experience.

What is now happening is that the only way to get a Phaeton in the US is in the used car market. One can now readily pick one up for under $20,000. The cars are holding up phenomenally well - I still get questions as to: "Is that a new Volkswagen" when people see mine, which are now 7-year old cars. One of mine has over 100,000 miles on it as well. The amazing thing is that I can't tell any difference when driving the one with 20,000 miles compared to the one with 105,000 miles.

Given the age of the Phaeton, many are now approaching or beyond 100,000 miles. If one looks, for one, a Phaeton with about 60,000 miles is considered a relatively low mileage car nowadays.

I have no doubt that with proper maintenance these cars will continue to last a long time. My thinking is possibly even 250,000 miles. There was a recent *thread* on this forum asking if 180,000 miles would be considered high mileage on a Phaeton - the responses were quite illuminating. Thus, I really don't see reliability as an issue with these cars.

The Phaeton's lack of sales and lack of recognition resulted in tremendous depreciation of the cars. This is not bad, as buyers who could have never afforded one of these cars when new (myself included) can now readily afford them. I have seen articles that refer to Phaetons as the best luxury used car buy given the value (Price/quality). The problem is that maintenance costs are often not considered by eager prospective buyers.

Even routine maintenance can run a pretty penny, but I agree that the value the car provides can readily justify these. Big repair costs, however, can drive one into the poor house. That is why I have advocated getting an extended warranty - either CPO or the Fidelity DriveEasy one sold by VW. One further reality, however, is that the cars are now getting so old that it is often not possible to obtain such. (Beware of sleazy extended warranty companies out there otherwise.) Thus, unless one has DIY skills far beyond mine or can set up a rainy day "Phaeton Phund" (couldn't resist), best advice to prospective buyers is to go for one with a warranty, or.... pass.

Victor


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## george777 (Feb 1, 2008)

j3w said:


> ...
> Buying a Phaeton was probably the worst business decision I've made in my life so far.



I think this line says it all. It shouldn't have been a 'business decision'... you must've loved the car to consider buying it. Many times we've mentioned [here] this vehicle is not for the faint of heart.


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## j3w (Feb 7, 2012)

Victor R said:


> The Phaeton's lack of sales and lack of recognition resulted in tremendous depreciation of the cars. This is not bad, as buyers who could have never afforded one of these cars when new (myself included) can now readily afford them. I have seen articles that refer to Phaetons as the best luxury used car buy given the value (Price/quality). The problem is that maintenance costs are often not considered by eager prospective buyers.


You are absolutely correct. I bought this car thinking I was getting a Passat XL, for the most part. My warning is for prospective buyers who might be confused by the fact that you get a car that's appointed like a vintage S Class for the price of a Jetta.



george777 said:


> I think this line says it all. It shouldn't have been a 'business decision'... you must've loved the car to consider buying it. Many times we've mentioned [here] this vehicle is not for the faint of heart.


The car is great, but I consider any big purchase to be a business decision. I like the car a lot, but I bought it thinking I could get a well appointed car for a low price and keep it for a long time without putting much into it.


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## j3w (Feb 7, 2012)

invisiblewave said:


> Sounds to me as if you got a bargain! If it was a 2004, you probably paid about $15k for it, plus $11k in getting it up to scratch, so you're now driving around in a $90k car with 42k on the clock for the price of a Golf.


$18k. Was immaculate, full service history, oil changed every 4k miles, 50k mile service done. 4th car in the old guy's garage, so hardly driven.

The flashlight in the console even works.

I'll tell you what, if nothing else breaks for 50k miles I'll revisit this thread bragging about how much I love the car, but today my pockets are $11,000 light and it takes me quite a while to sock away that much green stuff.


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## george777 (Feb 1, 2008)

j3w said:


> The car is great, but I consider any big purchase to be a business decision. I like the car a lot, but I bought it thinking I could get a well appointed car for a low price and keep it for a long time without putting much into it.


There's always a risk with any pre-owned car, whether a Yugo or Bentley, you just don't know what you're getting into. Having said this, and with the amount that you've spent fixing up your car by now, I'm guessing it's up to your liking - or should be. Probably you've already taken care of most major problems by now. But it sounds to me that when you look at it it's just a painful reminder of what you've purchased - which is not a very good feeling (been there, done that). Maybe it's not meant for you to keep it for long...


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi j3w,

I don't detect a lot of brotherly sympathy coming through in this thread! Here's some: I think it's plain bad luck to have bought a car at book value in good faith and then your dealer says to change the gearbox.

Maybe some alternative action other than the dealer's might have eased the financial pain, but at least it's done, and you have a good gearbox with warranty now.

My own car? It is shortly demanding £4500/$7000 of turbos, after the previous owner remained silent on this issue but must have been aware. I go outside and look at it, scratch my head, get in it and immediately forgive everything. So far!

Anyway, assuming you keep the car I really hope you can now get as much luxurious pleasure from it as its creators hoped you would.

Good luck,
Chris


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## Victor R (Jan 7, 2010)

Chris,

You make a good point about lack of sympathy on this thread. I concur that there hasn't been any prior to your comments, though there was sympathy on j3w's *thermostat thread* and his* transmission thread* which preceded this one and addressed the problems with the vehicle.

j3w, I do sympathize with you. Getting hit for $11,000 in repair bills (which, moreover, comes out to more than 60% of the original purchase price) (OUCH!!) is truly bad luck and most unfortunate.

This thread, though, discourages buyers from purchasing a Phaeton based on "reliability and repair costs". Reliability is, in my mind, not the issue, which is a point I tried to make. Repair costs absolutely are, which is something that does need to be pointed out to prospective buyers, especially those who choose to "fly" without the safety net of a warranty.

j3w, assuming that your luck doesn't totally go sour, I would not be surprised that you indeed will get 50K miles of trouble free operation and lots of enjoyment out of the car. I wish you only the best.

Chris, thanks for pointing out that we should not lose sight of the impact of these repair bills on the unlucky and unfortunate.

Victor


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Well said...


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## heisenberg2000 (Mar 26, 2008)

Last Friday, with a broken heart, I traded my W12 for a new Audi A5.

Considering the problems I had with the car I choose not to offer it 
to anybody here on the forum.

I still absolutely love the car. I just could not take the ongoing problems anymore. 
Every few days the check engine light, the subsequent visits to the dealer. 
Recently I started having problems with the TPM system. I really got fast 
with the VAG, it took me only about 3 min. to reset the error code and than 
the TPMS run for an other 3 - 4 days. Than a repeat. ... and so on.

Last Thursday the sunroof suddenly opened during my drive home. 

Then one of the center taillights failed and boy, sometimes you wish back the good old times,
when the only thing you needed then was to replaced the light bulb, but as we know that
is not that simple with our car. 

I looked at other car's, but really nothing compares to the our Phaeton.

I had intended to keep the car for good.

It is my opinion, that the lack of able and caring service facilities is one the biggest 
problems.

I have / had a extended service contract for the car. If I add everything up, I can 
say that the insurance has paid more than $ 15,000.00 on repairs. 
I spend about $ 1,200.00 on car rental and then several thousand's on regular 
oil changes, trans oil changes etc. 

I still have no regrets about buying my Phaeton. 

Here a note from the guy at Audi (he had taken the car home after I traded it in),
he told me the next day: "wow what a car, why do you want to sell it ?". My guess 
the CEL did not come on while he drove it.

So my conclusion, I must have gotten a "Montagsauto".

In the next days I will put up for sale all the parts I bought and so far and did not get
around to install. 
So anyone interested can contact me by email.

-All parts for "keyless start". 
-A have a wireless back up camera with interface module for our infortainment unit. 
-Next is a (latest version) bluetooth module including the modified ON STAR buttons. 
-A full set of OEM Bosch OX sensors (all 8 needed) with the original connectors.
-Both driver side lower A arms with the sway bar link and all 4 upper A arms. 
-And last not least a fuel filter (if wanted with the special tool for the connectors).

On the above list you are able to see how serious a was about keeping that car.


I


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## JulianBenjamin (Jun 22, 2007)

I had similar issues when I first bought my car at 33k miles. It was a CPO, so everything should've been checked and double-checked before selling (according to the VW CPO program). 

Car ended up being in the shop for at least a couple of days every other week, for a whole slew of issues. Brake light went bad and were replaced, headlights were replaced, nav was replaced twice, spare wheel was cracked and was replaced, trim was replaced, batteries were replaced, TPMS sensor and controller was replaced, bumper was replaced (my cost, as the previous selling dealership didn't realize there was an accident, and when they removed the bumper to replace the headlights, a big hole magically appeared from the bondo falling out), finally culminating in a transmission replacement at 70k miles (just under my CPO). Thankfully everything was paid for (except for the bumper) by the CPO warranty.

However, I'm now at 123k miles, and since my transmission replacement, nothing's broken or gone wrong, except for my fuel pump at 120k. And I think it's the greatest car ever.

So don't worry; you'll get there. It just needs some nurturing.

Edit: forgot about replacing 3 cracked wheels at my cost at $500 each. Eventually ended up with Bentley wheels.


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## pabraham100 (Nov 8, 2011)

heisenberg2000 said:


> In the next days I will put up for sale all the parts I bought and so far and did not get
> around to install.
> So anyone interested can contact me by email.
> 
> ...


I am interested in the backup camera, fuel filter with tool and the A arms.


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## StevenFT (Jan 26, 2012)

I'd be interested in the keyless start bits and/or the Bluetooth bits.

Sorry to hear you had to let her go.

Steven


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## j3w (Feb 7, 2012)

JulianBenjamin said:


> However, I'm now at 123k miles, and since my transmission replacement, nothing's broken or gone wrong, except for my fuel pump at 120k. And I think it's the greatest car ever.
> 
> So don't worry; you'll get there. It just needs some nurturing.
> 
> Edit: forgot about replacing 3 cracked wheels at my cost at $500 each. Eventually ended up with Bentley wheels.


I appreciate the kind words and similar stories.

The fact is, when I am driving down the freeway at 90 or 100mph and the cabin is silent enough to use the speaker phone on my cellphone, the climate control system is pumping chilled air at whatever body part I choose, the seat massager is gently rolling my backside...the car is a dream.

I just wanted to clearly warn any prospective buyers that there may be some holes in your research (as there were in mine) and that all this technology costs when it breaks.

In addition to the Money Pit, I have access to a new Accord and a Jetta GLI and I never grab the keys to either, ever. Heck, if the Phaeton had the Bose stereo in the Jetta, I might be even more in love with it. The Accord was over 30 grand I think, and in comparison to the Phaeton it feels cheat, thin, flimsy. It's loud, plasticky...however it never breaks and likely never will.

But there's this underlying feeling...like a pretty girlfriend...that you love...who cheats on you if you go out of town for too long. But, in comparison to the Accord which is an endlessly loyal boring fat girl...


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## Victor R (Jan 7, 2010)

> ...when I am driving down the freeway at 90 or 100mph and the cabin is silent enough to use the speaker phone on my cellphone...




Is it possible that some of the issues with the car may be related to driving style?

Victor


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

I don't think these cars even notice when they are doing 100mph on a motorway. I know I lightly dip the accelerator to pass someone without really thinking much of it and my passenger says 'WHAT speed was that?!" and I have to pull up a bit, being law abiding by intention...

Just check those YouTube videos of young Europeans listening to the CDs while chatting away at 150mph. Worrying, but awesome.

Chris


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't think anybody's doubting the ability of the car to cruise safely at 100+mph, so long as whoever's at the wheel is focused on the road and isn't talking on the phone at the same time!


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## j3w (Feb 7, 2012)

invisiblewave said:


> I don't think anybody's doubting the ability of the car to cruise safely at 100+mph, so long as whoever's at the wheel is focused on the road and isn't talking on the phone at the same time!


Cleaned my snow shields, they were caked with mud.

Please edit to 115+mph.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> Cleaned my snow shields, they were caked with mud.
> 
> Please edit to 115+mph.


Ah, that would be the 4x4 aspects, doing hill climbs ready to reach escape velocity.


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## Victor R (Jan 7, 2010)

> Is it possible that some of the issues with the car may be related to driving style?





> Please edit to 115+mph.


While I am aware that the Phaeton can handle 100 mph sustained speeds on the highway, my thinking is that the postings reflect - shall we say - an aggressive driving style. Typically, such a style would also include rapid acceleration and deceleration. That could potentially wreak havoc on an eight-year old transmission in a car that had not been driven much ("4th car in the old guy's garage" - see post #11 this thread) given its low mileage nor hard (given the "old guy" comment).

Just sayin'...

Victor


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Highly unlikely that driving style could do much to hurt the transmission, imo, since shifts are carefully controlled by software. Also highly unlikely that driving style could do anything else much to hurt a car with design specifications such as this one has, short of taking it on a track for a few hours, and even then I think the worst you'd do is probably boil the brakes. The mechanicals have a similar bullet-proof feeling to Porsche.


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## Victor R (Jan 7, 2010)

> Highly unlikely that driving style could do much to hurt the transmission...


Perhaps...

On the other hand, an interesting article on *How to Extend the Life of Your Car* lists the following as No.1 in their top ten tips:



> Drive gently.
> While this may be the hardest thing to do for your car, it’s something that will pay huge dividends over the life of the vehicle. Adjusting your driving style to minimize wear and tear on your ride can not only give you a few more years of happy motoring, but it can also save you cash in repairs and replacement parts. It might take some of the fun out of driving, but accelerating gently from stop lights and stop signs, avoiding abrupt braking and completing smooth, non-aggressive turns all play a part in keeping your car in one piece and save you gas too.


Other factors clearly apply as well. Also, there are always issues with "lemons" and/or bad luck.

Again, my comments on this thread are trying to focus on the issue of reliability of Phaetons. My first one came with 86,000 miles on it. It was supposedly carefully maintained by a local dealer. When I got it, there were issues my dealer here found when I had them go over the car carefully after I first got it. Moreover, as time went on, it became apparent to me that my first dealer did not do work to my satisfaction on the car, which really makes me wonder about the quality of the work done before I became the owner. 

This speaks to the need for qualified service personnel. One dealership I contacted about doing work on my Phaeton declined, stating that they were not allowed to work on Phaetons as they had no Phaeton trained tech. Other dealerships had far less qualms about tackling the car without a Phaeton trained tech, and gladly offered to do the work. After a lengthy search I found a dealership with a Phaeton trained tech, and met and talked to him before I entrusted the car to him.

I have had no problems with the car since the new service, and the car is running great at 107,000 miles and counting. As noted, however, even routine maintenence is expensive, though worth it, and any big ticket item in need of prophyllactic repair has been covered by the extended warranty. Moreover, while I am also an "old guy", I do appreciate the capabilities of the car and have been *accused of driving aggressively on occasion*.

Nevertheless, as my driving style has mellowed somewhat with age, I do find that cars are indeed lasting longer. Including the original Phaeton, I now have three cars with over 100,000 miles in my fleet, and I am in no hurry to replace any of them as they are running well...

Victor


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

I would side with Victor on this one: driving style (not synonymous with driving slowly) does make a huge difference on longevity and reliability, as does having only one person driving the car for the duration. I bought my Phaeton new almost seven years ago, and to-date it has been spectacularly reliable. Over 61k miles I have had no mechanical or electronic failure with the only exception of the failure of one of the active engine mounts, which had to be replaced under warranty a few years ago, and a pane of glass cracked by a stone on the highway. The total cost of all maintenance amounts to $4,400.84, of which $1,162.08 were for a set of 4 new tires and $480 for five new sensor and valves since the originals' batteries . So, while a feel for our fellow forum member's vicissitudes, I do feel that this thread is not titled correctly: it is really about one particular car's problems, not necessarily indicative of the model's general reliability. Just my two bits.
Stefano


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## j3w (Feb 7, 2012)

Victor R said:


> While I am aware that the Phaeton can handle 100 mph sustained speeds on the highway, my thinking is that the postings reflect - shall we say - an aggressive driving style. Typically, such a style would also include rapid acceleration and deceleration. That could potentially wreak havoc on an eight-year old transmission in a car that had not been driven much ("4th car in the old guy's garage" - see post #11 this thread) given its low mileage nor hard (given the "old guy" comment).
> 
> Just sayin'...
> 
> Victor


Actually the technician at ZF said the exact same thing.

Who knew?

I bought my previous car, a Cayenne S, from a rich guy's small fleet as well and it had 80K on the clock. I drove it like a Porsche and sold it at 175k miles with no major mechanical failures.

I have owned a fair number of cars and they all reached ripe old ages, in fact I've never sold a car with less than 100k on the clock and I've never encountered these kinds of issues.

To be clear, where I live there are lots of long, straight, wide open freeways and most of my driving is at very off peak hours, so going a little faster than the posted limit isn't indicative of anything other than having 5 lanes to myself.

On a scale of drivers, I'd say I'm actually very mechanically sympathetic.

But really, if you have to drive like a little old lady, what's the point of owning a big German sedan with a V8?


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## j3w (Feb 7, 2012)

Paximus said:


> Ah, that would be the 4x4 aspects, doing hill climbs ready to reach escape velocity.


The previous owner vacationed in Aspen and had a ranch in S. Dakota. When I bought the car it had SD plates, so it's certainly seen some snow in its lifetime.

I was actually quite surprised how dirty they were...they were completely clogged. But reading the *headlight thread* I recalled that the air filter indicators in mine always seemed to be red, even though filters were done 4000 miles ago AND when I got the thermostat, belts, roller, water pump replaced.

A quick look and sure enough, they were completely clogged.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

j3w said:


> But really, if you have to drive like a little old lady, what's the point of owning a big German sedan with a V8?


Indeed. I'd like to see some actual evidence of gentle driving extending the longevity of a Phaeton. Mine's driven relatively hard and hasn't shown any ill-effects so far other than excessive tyre wear!


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## stefanuk (Jul 7, 2010)

I have to say that driving slowly/carefully can also have it's downfall............brakes get glazed and need replacing sooner than they should, engines that never get extended throughout the rev range suffer due to not burning off carbon, only short journeys let water collect in the engine/oil as it doesn't get burned off, DPF's will need repair/replacement as they don't get up to temperature/revs to burn off the deposits.
Lack of use can also lead to perished rubber parts, water gets into the fuel/oil setting off corrosion in the fuel tank and lines.
Basically use the car. occasionally give it a hard run, make sure you always warm it up fully before driving hard, but not just idling on the drive, always let the turbo cool down after a long hard run so it doesn't seize.
So i guess what i'm saying is just use the car, service regularly, have some mechanical empathy.......don't let anyone else drive it!! ...........and hope luck is on your side

Stefan


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## Victor R (Jan 7, 2010)

> But really, if you have to drive like a little old lady, what's the point of owning a big German sedan with a V8?


There is a *huge* difference between driving like an old lady and driving like a maniac.

Regardless of empty roads, 115 + mph, or "over 120 mph" on the *transmission thread* represents an extreme of driving. 

A quick view of State speeding limits:









Even on the Autobahn, speed limits are now 130 kph (81 mph).

Again, everybody here should recognize that the claimed speed is 40 mph above the maximum legal speed limit in the country and for the Autobahn, and 45 miles per hour (!) above the maximum speed limit for the entire US with the exception of Utah and a small section in Texas.

When coupled with the cellphone comment, one has to at least consider the term "reckless". (Law enforcement sure would...)

As noted, my own driving style is not that of a little old lady and I was not advocating that at all. Even driving a car hard, however, would go nowhere near the claimed speeds noted here. How many members here have had their cars above 110 mph for even a short time?

Chris, back to your lack of brotherly love comment. I confess I have little sympathy for someone who claims to drive a used eight year old car that weighs over 5000 pounds at breakneck speeds while talking on the cell phone and then cries in his beer about the lack of reliability of the car when expensive parts fail.

Victor


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

> Even on the Autobahn, speed limits are now 130 kph (81 mph).


That's the recommended limit - there are still quite a few stretches of derestricted autobahn.

Harry


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## Francis007 (Aug 20, 2006)

Prince Ludwig said:


> - there are still quite a few stretches of derestricted autobahn.
> 
> Harry


Evening Harry

One being the last 100 miles or so to Dresden eh ,when your boy is heading back to the place of his birth ! 

Frank


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Here is tonight's homily.

I usually drive a particular journey late at night when there's little traffic, and I religiously put the cruise just below the well-known speed the police informally suggest is lower than their stop alert under normal circumstances. (That's the way things seem to run here, once you are in a 'derestricted' zone, which means 70 or whatever joke speed the speedo tells you at that velocity).

I estimate that about 25% of the traffic is driving between 80 and 85 mph in every car from a Smart upwards, mostly 1.6 and 2 litre family cars. Of course the Porsches, BMWs and also the lane-dodging kiddie racers doing one interval on the motorway in their flat out 15-year old body-kitted 1.4 runabouts do about 90.

In that context the P is simply loafing along, and in terms of wear and tear certainly wouldn't care whether it was doing 80 or 110.

After all, even those other 1.6 cars can be expected to live a normal life to 130k + miles.

But if we are talking traffic light burnouts and 60mph down winding lanes, then the suspension, UJs and tyres are going to be hit. But they can be expected to be replaced in due course. But I doubt the gearbox will be stressed beyond design tolerance? As Invisiblewave says, it's fitted with a very strong box, all monitored and controlled, and knowing the Phaeton, it would probably flag a fault and limp home if the design torque was exceeded!

I've forgotten what point I was making.  

Chris


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

j3w said:


> But really, if you have to drive like a little old lady, what's the point of owning a big German sedan with a V8?


Absolutley agree! That's why I had to have a V10. Interesting to see in Chris Paximus's posting earlier that there are only 18 V8s in the UK. Explains why I've never seen one!

Regards

M


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## j3w (Feb 7, 2012)

Victor R said:


> When coupled with the cellphone comment, one has to at least consider the term "reckless". (Law enforcement sure would...)


I think you misread the comment and assumed I speed and talk on the phone, what I said was:



j3w said:


> ...the cabin is silent enough to use the speaker phone on my cellphone...


At no point does it say, "I regularly speed and talk on the phone." and while I take your point that you are a humorless fuddy duddy, I do in fact drive at 90 or 100 on the freeway when possible and will continue to do so. It seems silly to crawl along at 70 on a wide open 5 lane freeway at 11P on a weeknight.

I get the impression that your picture me ripping away from stop lights and threading through traffic while texting with one hand and feeding myself a latte with the other. Stomping the gas through every hole in traffic to achieve some top speed record with every freeway dash.

That is not the case. 

And as far as the law is concerned, I haven't gotten ticketed in perhaps 4-5 years and the last time I did it was for doing 38 in a 35.


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## Victor R (Jan 7, 2010)

Fuddy Duddy perhaps, but definitely not humorless.

In fact, I find this exchange quite amusing....

:laugh:

Victor


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Confession time: one of the other numerous windows open on my desktop is a Tejas defensive driving website..... Couldn't do the deferred adjudication nonsense this time since it's less than 12 months since my last probation ended! Transmission still shifting fine despite all that (I have flappy paddles, too). I tend to view speeding tickets as an occupational hazard. The doughnut-muncher even complimented the car this time (it was the 944, not the Phaeton, last time it was the Phaeton) as he walked back to his computer to check my details and print the ticket.

For those in the UK reading this, US drivers have numerous options for avoiding points on licences. Deferred adjudication allows you to pay a higher fine, go on 90 or 180 days' probation (depending on just how fast your Phaeton was travelling when lasered), and the online defensive driving course is 6 hours of tedium. Both result in the offence not appearing on your driving record, and hence not affecting your insurance. In fact, completion of said course results in a lower insurance premium, I believe.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Fwiw, I think any lack of brotherly love shown here comes more from the title of the thread than any judgement about driving habits.


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## Passat2001_5lover (Dec 11, 2001)

*Should you buy a used Phaeton?*

Back to the original post...should you buy a used Phaeton in North America where they have not been imported since 2006?

What makes a Phaeton *different* than buying any used vehicle in NA that is an '04-'06 model?

1. Original price over $60K to over $100K
2. None imported to NA since '06
3. Lack of trained (certified) *Phaeton-specific* VW mechanics. 
4. Difficulty getting replacement parts from Germany, *as only about 3,300 total Phaetons were ever sold in North America.*

What makes a Phaeton *the same* as buying any used vehicle in NA that is an 04-06 model?
1. Wear and tear
2. Expensive to buy = expensive to repair
3. Hidden/undisclosed damage or repair history
4. Cost, and even availability, of an extended service warranty
5. If its an import, it may be difficult getting replacement parts
6. '04 models are "first model year" and all such are riskier than non-1st model years.

Oh, there are undoubtedly more points, proving that it is risky buying a used Phaeton, as it is *buying any used vehicle*, regardless of the original manufacturer's list price.

Did these facts keep me from buying my used '04 Phaeton? NOPE. It was emotional, certainly not logical. 
Did I enjoy paying about 73% less for it than it cost new?  YEP 
Do I love my Phaeton? :laugh: YEP!

While I own an '01 VW Passat and '05 VW Touareg (both bought new), and the Phaeton, I have never recommended anyone buy any VW. They were right, in fact, almost PERFECT, for me, when I bought each of them. All have had mechanical or service issues. Each of the issues I can and have dealt with. Will I replace them with more VW's? Probably not (my local VW dealership lost their license to sell VWs), because I would have to drive out of my county to get to the nearest VW dealership. But that is a *convenience* issue, not a mechanical issue.

Good luck to anyone considering buying a Phaeton. May you be as happy as me, or happier (if that is even possible) with your purchase. :wave:

Regards, Tim

PS. If VW again imports Phaetons, I will most likely trade mine in for one. I will have to drive out of the county for service, but it is at the same dealership that I now service my Phaeton. Yes it is an inconvenience, and yes, it will be an emotional purchase!


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

How does the cost of parts & service compare between the three? From what I've seen on the Phaeton, the hourly rate is the same, although some jobs may take a bit longer than on other cars, and parts aren't that much more expensive than on other vehicles, it just has more parts hence more to go wrong.


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## Victor R (Jan 7, 2010)

Tim,

Nice post.

I would, however, edit your list:



> What makes a Phaeton different than buying any used vehicle in NA that is an '04-'06 model?
> 
> 1. Original price over $60K to over $100K
> 2. None imported to NA since '06
> ...


1. Massive depreciation (70-80% of original price) 
_It is not the original sales price that is the differentiator; there were other 2004-6 cars sold at the $60K - $100K+ price. It is the relative affordability of the Phaeton to relatively inexperienced buyers that is the issue._
2. True
3. Lack of *Phaeton* trained (certifed) mechanics
_There are lots of trained VW mechanics around but they work on Golfs, Jettas, etc._
4. Difficulty of getting replacement parts *as only 3300 of these cars were ever sold in the US*
_There are many other cars where replacement parts come from Germany; the problem is that the rarity of the Phaeton means that is makes no economic sense for US dealers to have an extensive stock of parts._

I have no edits on your list of issues involved in buying any used vehicle in NA.

Again, well said.

Victor


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## Passat2001_5lover (Dec 11, 2001)

Victor, 

Those are good issues. I have edited my post with most of your recommended edits. 

My intent was to educate anyone researching used Phaetons to buy... and hopefully, they can see the cons in said actual purchase. From what I have read here in these posts over the years, the Original price of any car helps determine the cost of upkeep. So perhaps I should have put the original cost point under *any used car purchase* (then again, that higher initial MSRP does differentiate a Phaeton from most used cars purchased in North America--my guess is about 80-90% of them or so cost less than the Phaeton, when new.) 

I have no idea how many current wanna be purchasers spent years, especially back in 2003-2004, obsessing over the Phaeton--from design to testing to actual release--like I did. I remember drooling over Michael's photos from inside the Glass Factory...oh how jealous I was (well, still am, I think!) 

I love my Phaeton, despite the known and perceived costs-to-own it. I know that eventually, I will have to get rid of my Phaeton. The person I bought it from had "Seller's Remorse" and I will too. And just like my seller, I sure hope whomever buys it from me treats it nice...I know this is silly... 

Tim 

PS..and to answer the question: I have had no mechanical problems with the Phaeton in my 1 year and 2 months of ownership-just regular maintenance. And, the exact regular maintenance was equivalent to my $49K Touareg for that issue. And, the Passat has cost less to maintain than both others, at each particular mileage point. Hope this helps.


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## j3w (Feb 7, 2012)

Victor R said:


> 1. Massive depreciation (70-80% of original price)
> _It is not the original sales price that is the differentiator; there were other 2004-6 cars sold at the $60K - $100K+ price. It is the relative affordability of the Phaeton to relatively inexperienced buyers that is the issue._


 My thread in a nutshell, right here.


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## seawind3000 (Sep 17, 2010)

Hi, I have never passed a car doing 100+. Too many cell phones to call in a report. But on a nice stretch of road, I will open the barn doors to let a few poney's out, 120 - 130 are not un-familiar. I love how the car runs at these speeds. 

Mike


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

Tim's post, edited by Victor, says it all. 

However, I personally could only recommend an aging Phaeton, or for that matter any luxury car, to a "special" type of buyer. Most of my good friends would not qualify. The ideal buyer should be a car lover that appreciates excellent engineering. The buyer should be willing to tolerate the Phaeton's idiosyncracies, such as self-correcting eletrical gremlins. In addition a willingness to get one's hands dirty doing at least the type of maintenance that is often overlooked by even certified Phaeton techs is a necessity. These items are the things we discuss regularly on the forum, such as lubricating the fabric covered wireloom and knuckle in the trunk, preventing water intrusion, etc. Most buyers do not want to mess with such stuff and when the associated problems occur they are very unhappy with the car and VW. 

So can I recommend a used Phaeton? The answer is yes and no. It depends totally on the buyer. For the right buyer, a good used Phaeton is the bargain of the century. 

For what it's worth my Phaeton has never been over 90 mph(at least during my 4 years of ownership), but I'd love to cruise at that speed all day long if I could. 

Jim X


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## Investments18 (Dec 20, 2012)

*Phaetons Are The Worst*

My dealer friend told me not to buy these cars but I didn't listen and bought 2 of them at the same time cause they were relatively cheap for what you get. In the past year I've spent over $10k in repairs on each and problems never stop. I fix one thing and 2 more break. Everything from cup holders, to TPMS failures ( twice replaced) to drivers seat moving on its own, rear doors don't open from outiside, overheating in winter even though I replaced water pump and thermostat sensors. Headlight modules are going out, heater sometimes works and at times does not. I'm losing my mind with these cars. Sold one to a friend and dealing with mine. Yes they ride nicely and are large and good value for the money but you will spend more on repairs then you paid for it. Worst cars I've ever owned and at 49 years of age, I've owned maybe upwards of 50 cars or more.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

> Worst cars I've ever owned


Hi,

Welcome to the forum.

You have my sympathies, but owning any $100,000 vehicle is going to attract commensurate running costs.

Most people's experiences are that an average or below average number of problems occur with the Phaeton when compared to any other fully-equipped luxury car, (Bentley, Mercedes, Rolls Royce, Jaguar, BMW, Maserati etc).

There are often two methods of approaching the problem, an expensive fix by dropping it off at a dealer to apply computer-aided fault-finding with swap-until-gone, and a pragmatic fix using the experience of other owners who can usually achieve the result at lower cost using an independent approach based on learning about the car's systems.

I suggest that a Bentley dealer will charge double the cost of a Phaeton-approved VW dealer who will charge double the cost of an experienced independent who is informed and assisted with the information available in this forum.

Anyway, I sincerely hope you have a more rewarding experience with cars no. 52 and 53, whatever their brands!

Chris


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Investments18 said:


> ...they were relatively cheap for what you get. In the past year I've spent over $10k in repairs on each and problems never stop.


I wonder if perhaps the two Phaetons you bought were "too cheap" for what you get.

I bought one Phaeton, once, and paid $130,000 for it (new). That was in 2005. I took it into the VW dealer for service in October this year, to have a few problems fixed, and the bill came to $3,000. That is the first time I have ever had to spend money to repair this car (routine maintenance of wear items such as oil changes, tires, and brakes excluded).

So - I've got 7 years of service and 90,000 km out of this rather complex 12 cylinder car and only spent $3,000 fixing stuff that has broke. That's $425 a year for unscheduled maintenance, which I think is not too bad for a 12 cylinder car.

I guess that there is a sweet spot somewhere in the middle, and it sounds like you didn't hit it. By that I mean maybe you paid too little for the cars (you bought beaters), and that is why your maintenance costs were so high.

Michael


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## MichaelGa (Dec 1, 2009)

It's unfortunate for you but sounds like these cars may have not be properly maintained perhaps. I for one have never had a single problem with my Pheaton ever. I only take it in for VW schedule maintenance and that's it. If I could, I would buy this car again. It's the best trouble free car I've ever owned. I realize they are not cheap to maintain, but neither is any other luxury car.



Investments18 said:


> My dealer friend told me not to buy these cars but I didn't listen and bought 2 of them at the same time cause they were relatively cheap for what you get. In the past year I've spent over $10k in repairs on each and problems never stop. I fix one thing and 2 more break. Everything from cup holders, to TPMS failures ( twice replaced) to drivers seat moving on its own, rear doors don't open from outiside, overheating in winter even though I replaced water pump and thermostat sensors. Headlight modules are going out, heater sometimes works and at times does not. I'm losing my mind with these cars. Sold one to a friend and dealing with mine. Yes they ride nicely and are large and good value for the money but you will spend more on repairs then you paid for it. Worst cars I've ever owned and at 49 years of age, I've owned maybe upwards of 50 cars or more.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Investments18 said:


> Everything from cup holders, to TPMS failures ( twice replaced)



For what it is worth, the cup holders typically don't actually break..but the pin that pivots the actuator slides out of position. It is easy enough to remove and slide the pin back into position. Most repair shops won't know that though, or bother to look. They will just order a new assembly and swap it out.

Also, TPMS on any car is a time bomb. The batteries in the sensors have an expected life span and eventually die requiring replacement. The best answer is simply to disable the system so the car doesn't even know it is there. No more lights on the dash, no worries. Check the tires the old fashioned way, it worked fine for 80+ years. There is a thread on here in the FAQ that explains how to do the job. I highly recommend it.

I propose we make a 'common Phaeton quirk' thread and sticky it. List a quick blurb about each known item and link to the thread involving/resolving it. 

I know most of the issues are covered individually and listed in the FAQ, but the vast amount of info there is overwhelming for the general person who is quickly researching the car for possible purchase. 

I'd be hesitant to call it an 'issue' or 'problem' thread, as I feel that things such as the TPMS or clogged drains, or bulging lower door door trim are minor quirks. Every car has _something_ it is known for, and once addressed with proper information on how to prevent/handle the situation, all is well.


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## 53 0val (Feb 23, 2010)

Welcome back Josh!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Welcome back, Josh! 

Michael


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## Jim_CT (Jan 25, 2006)

PowerDubs said:


> I propose we make a 'common Phaeton quirk' thread and sticky it. List a quick blurb about each known item and link to the thread involving/resolving it.
> 
> I know most of the issues are covered individually and listed in the FAQ, but the vast amount of info there is overwhelming for the general person who is quickly researching the car for possible purchase.


I believe this is a good idea. Michael has put together a tremendous resource on the cars and most of us are adept at getting around the FAQs/theads and working through issues as they arise. Or maybe we have overcome these quirks, either through the forum or on our own, and then forgotten how we did so. But ownership of the cars is changing, and at least some new owners most likely won't have the enthusiasm to search through the forum for solutions to their problems. One approoach would be to tell'em, "work it out, it's all in the FAQ" (a very true statement); another approach would be to give them a cheat sheet, or an FAQ guide, to the known quirks and their fixes, and tell'em, "start here".

Jim


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

Happy New Year Josh.


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## Phat One (Jul 10, 2009)

ditto


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Thanks guys. Glad to be back. :wave:


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## mik15 (Dec 18, 2012)

Event though i am new to Phaeton world i am not new to owning an expensive to maintain car, my other car is a 2004 Audi RS6, and it's anything but cheap to maintain , at least it doesn't have any electric/electronic gremlins but sometimes i would prefer those instead of a mechanical failure ! Reading around here i've seen that some of the problems Phaeton owners have/had are quite similar to the ones on the RS6, i.e. the gearbox problems, mainly on the W12 engines because the early models are using the same 5 speed ZF gearbox, 5hp24a, which is known for the weak torque converter which in the end leads to ruining the gearbox if the issue is not observed early!

My Phaeton is a baby Phaeton, if i may call it like this, because it's only a 3.2 engine, chain driven, with FWD, therefore a small engine which doesn't really push the gearbox too much, so from this point of view shouldn't be any problems on long term. The main problem that might come up, could be the suspension, but hopefully won't be very soon , otherwise the car should be pretty reliable. It does have a few electric gremlins but hopefully will be sorted out soon and that doesn't make it undriveable.

Definitely who buys a car which used to cost new over 100k should think that maintenance, even after 8 years, is still expensive and if big bills could be a problem then he shouldn't go for it. Luckily for most of you an aftermarket warranty is available, so you should go for it if you have this option, here there is no such thing for a car of this age, so every penny comes out of my own pocket, not to mention that cars like the RS6 or Phaeton here are as rare as rain falls(it usually rains once a few years  ) so the know how of the VW/Audi dealership techs is really at a low and limited level, so for me a forum like this or the one for the RS6 is invaluable! If it wasn't for such forums, i don't think i would've bought these cars while being in this part of the world!


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## SoundsoftheSuburbs (Jan 17, 2017)

*Anyone experienced with Phaeton service and maintenance expenses?*

Hi,

Looking at a pre-owned 2004 Phaeton. It has a few known issues. I have an inspection report, but I would like to communicate with an experienced Phaeton owner/mechanic before I buy. I would like to have a better idea of what exactly I am getting myself into.

Thanks,

MBE


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## gwiken65 (Jul 8, 2016)

Mercedes-Benz Enthusiast said:


> Hi,
> 
> Looking at a pre-owned 2004 Phaeton. It has a few known issues. I have an inspection report, but I would like to communicate with an experienced Phaeton owner/mechanic before I buy. I would like to have a better idea of what exactly I am getting myself into.
> 
> ...


Hi.
Do you want to service the Phaeton yourself, or you plan to let the dealer do all the service? 

Skickat från min D6603 via Tapatalk


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## notwise (Nov 17, 2016)

My 2004 has 75k on the clock and I bought it 3 months ago. While it presented very well, here's what I have done:
1. Driver door window regulator
2. Intake control linkages
3. All filters - cleaned snow screens 
4. Both low beam headlights
5. iPod adapter for the stereo
6. 80k service ($1500 - includes timing belt, serpentine, etc etc)
7. Valve cover gaskets
8. Rear seat climate control
9. Fuel pumps 
10. Front suspension arms
11. Ignition coils (warranty)
12. Spark plugs 
13. Tires 

At this point, I've got $5k of bills. 

Scott


---
Scott Fergusson
Dulcius Ex Asperis
www.chapmansbrewing.com


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## SoundsoftheSuburbs (Jan 17, 2017)

gwiken65 said:


> Hi.
> Do you want to service the Phaeton yourself, or you plan to let the dealer do all the service?
> 
> Skickat från min D6603 via Tapatalk


I would rely on the dealer or an independent mechanic to do the most intense work, meaning anything above basic diagnostics and cosmetic work. I am not very handy when it comes to automobiles, but more than most. I am blessed to know someone who has worked extensively on Bentley Continentals and is also a factory trained Mercedes-Benz mechanic.


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## SoundsoftheSuburbs (Jan 17, 2017)

notwise said:


> My 2004 has 75k on the clock and I bought it 3 months ago. While it presented very well, here's what I have done:
> 1. Driver door window regulator
> 2. Intake control linkages
> 3. All filters - cleaned snow screens
> ...


None of that sounds out of the ordinary. I am concerned about being slammed with a bill of $3000 or something that I've become accustomed to with owning Mercedes-Benzes. I do not need that in a fourth car. My Phaeton fits nearly the same profile as yours, based upon the mileage.

How was your trunk wiring?


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## notwise (Nov 17, 2016)

I don't think the repair costs are out of line, either. The trunk wiring looks fine - I've examined it and thankfully there is no fraying or cuts. 

I am suprised at the sound the doors make when a passenger slams them - it doesn't sound very nice at all - like a slapping sound. 


---
Scott Fergusson
Dulcius Ex Asperis
www.chapmansbrewing.com


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## SoundsoftheSuburbs (Jan 17, 2017)

notwise said:


> I don't think the repair costs are out of line, either. The trunk wiring looks fine - I've examined it and thankfully there is no fraying or cuts.
> 
> I am suprised at the sound the doors make when a passenger slams them - it doesn't sound very nice at all - like a slapping sound.
> 
> ...


Not what you were expecting from a luxury car, eh? It doesn't sound like the Mercedes-Benz thunk? I've not been able to see my Phaeton in person, yet.


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## notwise (Nov 17, 2016)

Agreed - my 280SE 3.5 Coupe sounds like a bank vault shutting. Heck, my 300CE sounds just as good. Makes me wonder if I can adjust it somehow. 


---
Scott Fergusson
Dulcius Ex Asperis
www.chapmansbrewing.com


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

notwise said:


> I don't think the repair costs are out of line, either. The trunk wiring looks fine - I've examined it and thankfully there is no fraying or cuts.
> 
> I am suprised at the sound the doors make when a passenger slams them - it doesn't sound very nice at all - like a slapping sound.
> 
> ...


I had a long response typed out, but it disappeared.

To summarize:

Mine are both 2004s and the doors close themselves if I just let go of the handles at about half way open. 

Tell your passengers not to slam them. Say "That's why we can't have nice things."

If there is anything in the door pockets, that could account for the slapping sound. 

If people have been slamming your doors long enough, they could have dislodged something.

-Eric


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

notwise said:


> Agreed - my 280SE 3.5 Coupe sounds like a bank vault shutting. Heck, my 300CE sounds just as good. Makes me wonder if I can adjust it somehow.
> 
> 
> ---
> ...


The strikers on the body are adjustable. You need a triple square. I think they are 10mm, but I could be wrong. My rear passenger door wasn't quite flush with the body. It took several tries to get it right. I could get it flush but then the seals were keeping it from closing by itself. If I adjusted it out, it would close by itself but not be flush. I finally got it perfect so I could once again let go of the door and it would close flush.

-Eric


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## s2kvondeutschland (Mar 19, 2011)

The original owner of my Phaeton, who was one of my customers at VW, racked up an impressive $42k in maintenance and repairs over the first 12 years of the car's life. 

In the last year and a half I have driven it 5000 miles and performed a few oil changes, a transmission+differential service, and installed new wheels and tires to the tune of about $3k. 

Costs all depend on who performs the services and to what level of performance you expect to maintain the car to. 

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

The 4 year warranty on mine paid out $26k in total. If you're afraid of a $3k bill and you're not likely to do the work yourself, the Phaeton is probably not the car for you.


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## SoundsoftheSuburbs (Jan 17, 2017)

invisiblewave said:


> The 4 year warranty on mine paid out $26k in total. If you're afraid of a $3k bill and you're not likely to do the work yourself, the Phaeton is probably not the car for you.


Was the vehicle in serious disrepair? That just does not seem reasonable, nor does it jibe with some of the quotes I've gotten. $26k into a $10k or less vehicle is nonsensical. Are you in the United States?


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Yes, I'm in the US, and no, the vehicle was not by any means in a state of serious disrepair, it had been regularly serviced by a VW dealer and when I bought the extended warranty it had only been out of manufacturer's warranty for a year. Most major jobs, assuming you use a dealer, are about $3k & up. For example; a single strut replacement, a transmission replacement or repair of pretty much any kind, a cam chain tensioner, an ABS controller, valve cover gaskets, etc, etc, etc. Just replacing the brakes at a dealer will cost you well over $1k, which is one good example of why I mentioned working on the car yourself.


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## RocketVol (Oct 7, 2014)

Another possible source of the slapping sound on the door is that the screw on the bottom of the interior door panel is gone or broken thru the plastic it goes thru. This was the case on my right front door, and every time it was closed it would make a slapping sound as the interior door card did slap the door frame. Bought an entire set of interior door panels (only needed one, but the deal was great and figured I might need them), replaced it and the thunk with no slap is back. But from the looks of it, the plastic the screw held against was not the strongest stuff around.

John


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

The fasteners holding on the door panel also break, it's almost impossible to remove the panel without breaking some of them. I thought I'd fixed all mine when I last took the driver's door apart, but I'm pretty sure the one at the top corner is unattached, which causes a sound every time I close the door. Rattles when I'm driving bother me, but I really don't care about sounds when I close the door, otherwise I would have pulled the panel off again.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> The strikers on the body are adjustable. You need a triple square. I think they are 10mm, but I could be wrong. My rear passenger door wasn't quite flush with the body. It took several tries to get it right. I could get it flush but then the seals were keeping it from closing by itself. If I adjusted it out, it would close by itself but not be flush. I finally got it perfect so I could once again let go of the door and it would close flush.
> 
> -Eric


I did the same job on mine, Eric. There was a complaint early on in one of the service invoices about the driver's door not closing easily enough, so the dealer had adjusted it so that it wasn't flush by a couple of millimeters. It wasn't difficult to just loosen that triple-square bolt and muck around with it until it was flush and also easy to close.


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## gwiken65 (Jul 8, 2016)

invisiblewave said:


> I did the same job on mine, Eric. There was a complaint early on in one of the service invoices about the driver's door not closing easily enough, so the dealer had adjusted it so that it wasn't flush by a couple of millimeters. It wasn't difficult to just loosen that triple-square bolt and muck around with it until it was flush and also easy to close.


Hi all. 
This is good info. My driver door is hard to close, and this is one more thing to test as soon as it gets warmer.
You guys are simply the best. 
Wiken  

Skickat från min D6603 via Tapatalk


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I found the best way was to loosen it only very slightly, then tap it with a rubber hammer. That way you can test close it (carefully) without moving the striker until it's flush.


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## gwiken65 (Jul 8, 2016)

invisiblewave said:


> I found the best way was to loosen it only very slightly, then tap it with a rubber hammer. That way you can test close it (carefully) without moving the striker until it's flush.


Coool.
Wiken  

Skickat från min D6603 via Tapatalk


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

invisiblewave said:


> I found the best way was to loosen it only very slightly, then tap it with a rubber hammer. That way you can test close it (carefully) without moving the striker until it's flush.


I usually loosen it and retighten it enough so it won't move by hand. I allow the door to move it into the ideal position when it closes. Then I tighten it down fully. 

That's how I adjusted the strikers on all of my other cars when they needed it.


I tried that on my Phaeton, but the striker plate wouldn't move unless it was completely loose. I took it off completely to see what was catching or sticking.

This is what the back of it looks like:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Holder-VW...242329?hash=item4b0e497519:g:FS8AAOSwEzxYVRrC

I think the clear plastic film keeps it from sliding, but removing it might scratch the paint. 

When it was loose enough to move, the door wouldn't close flush. The striker would move to the place of least resistance which was closed but not flush (due to the door seals pushing it out).

I ended up loosening the striker plate enough to move, then tightening it down fully and letting the door close by itself to see if it would work. It took several tries. 

-Eric


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

invisiblewave said:


> I did the same job on mine, Eric. There was a complaint early on in one of the service invoices about the driver's door not closing easily enough, so the dealer had adjusted it so that it wasn't flush by a couple of millimeters. It wasn't difficult to just loosen that triple-square bolt and muck around with it until it was flush and also easy to close.


Is yours also a 2004 without soft close doors like mine?

The way my doors close by just letting go of them makes me wonder why the soft close feature was even needed.

I imagine the soft close feature is like when the latch on the trunk lid sucks it closed. 

-Eric


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## wobegong (Dec 30, 2014)

Mercedes-Benz Enthusiast said:


> Hi,
> 
> Looking at a pre-owned 2004 Phaeton. It has a few known issues. I have an inspection report, but I would like to communicate with an experienced Phaeton owner/mechanic before I buy. I would like to have a better idea of what exactly I am getting myself into.
> 
> ...


Hi - I have a 2004/5 3.2 which I purchased in late 2014 - now has approx 77k (miles) on the clock.

To date have had a gearbox oil seal replaced (minor leak spotted during service) + standard servicing at a main dealer (last service was approx GBP750 including the gearbox leak job and an MOT).

Car is not used all year (I spend most of my time abroad) but has been around Scotland, down to Valencia in southern Spain, Cornwall etc.

(Touch wood) everything works and no issues to date but I know I am luckier than some on this forum (no suspension issues........yet).

Good luck with your purchase.


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## notwise (Nov 17, 2016)

This is good stuff - I am going to propose something different here: I am going to record the sound, from the inside, that the door makes when someone shuts it 'normally'. I'll then post it here - if anyone on this thread gets a chance, listen to the sound and tell me whether I just need to get over it or whether I can make it sound better. 


---
Scott Fergusson
Dulcius Ex Asperis
www.chapmansbrewing.com


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Scott,

My doors (which have just been replaced under warranty) close with a single thump, not quite as tuned as Mercedes seek to achieve but certainly built to Ferdinand Piëch's satisfaction.

For the V10, over 5 years and 60k miles my maintenance account stands at £8,638. Fuel cost was £11,702, so the total was 33.9 pence per mile. Those costs exclude annual vehicle tax and insurance, of course.

This compares with the Jeep Hemi, which cost £6,363 on maintenance over 8 years and 31k miles. Fuel cost was £12,123. So that's 59.6 pence per mile.

As a "budget car" comparison, the old Mercedes A Class runabout cost £1,053 in maintenance over 8.5k miles, and £1,405 in fuel, so that's 28.9 pence per mile.

Edit: I just corrected a figure, I thought the Phaeton was cheaper than the runabout, but alas, life is not like that... But there's not that much in it! 

Chris


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*11 1/2 years' total cost*

I've owned mine 11 and a half years (from new) now with 83600 miles on the clock. The total cost of repairs (including everything except gas and depreciation) as of today is $ 11,305. $1,954 of these were spent six months ago for the timing belt service and ancillaries (done by a VW dealer). I regard this cost as very reasonable and the car as exceptionally reliable. Then again, I'm the only one driving it, which may make a difference.

Some metrics stand out:
- Tires: only two sets, the OEM ones and one more, over 82,000 miles (I just put on my third set), which, in my view, is exceptional for such a heavy car.
- No electrical faults whatsoever: all switches, accessories, window regulators, wiper motors etc. work just fine
- Only three, minor, repairs under warranty: the trunk wiring harness, the latch of front central cubbyhole and the TPMS controller.
- No rattles, creaking noises or vibrations: the car runs quietly and solidly down the road just like the day I took delivery.
So, over 11 years on I'm still as happy with the Phaeton as I was when I bought it. I'm not surprised, though, having visited the transparent factory in Dresden three times and personally observed how these cars were assembled (including the occasional Bentley coming down the same line): it's a real shame that the new generation had to shelved and factory mothballed to offset some of the cost of the ludicrous diesel scandal, not to mention the 600 Dresden employees. I believe they were all given the option of early retirement or other VW jobs in different cities, but this wonderful, unique experiment came to a premature end because of dishonesty and stupidity.
Stefano


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## Indianajohns (Oct 26, 2016)

*IPOD adaptor*

Hi Scott, I'm a fellow new 04 Phaeton owner in the Columbus IN area.
What IPOD adaptor did you install and do you like it?
Thanks,
John


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## SoundsoftheSuburbs (Jan 17, 2017)

*Dealer quote*

My local dealer quoted me $1188 for 80k service. Is that something I should jump at?


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## Phat One (Jul 10, 2009)

Mercedes-Benz Enthusiast said:


> My local dealer quoted me $1188 for 80k service. Is that something I should jump at?


Definitely get thermostat changed at the same time if not included. Water pump too but they are sturdy looking pumps, not sure if any have failed on a Phaeton. I changed all the rollers, tensioners etc and the serpentine belt and both coolant sensors when I did mine.

Graham


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Depends what it includes. If they're doing the timing belt then yes, you should absolutely jump at it. As Graham says though, definitely make sure they include the thermostat, water pump and all the rollers & tensioners.


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## SoundsoftheSuburbs (Jan 17, 2017)

invisiblewave said:


> Depends what it includes. If they're doing the timing belt then yes, you should absolutely jump at it. As Graham says though, definitely make sure they include the thermostat, water pump and all the rollers & tensioners.





Phat One said:


> Definitely get thermostat changed at the same time if not included. Water pump too but they are sturdy looking pumps, not sure if any have failed on a Phaeton. I changed all the rollers, tensioners etc and the serpentine belt and both coolant sensors when I did mine.
> 
> Graham


I got my parts kit from Blau Parts using a 20% off coupon I found I got the most expensive kit with the antifreeze for $409 with shipping. Now, I am having the challenge of finding someone to do the work for me. 

My first call to an independent mechanic told me that they would not do any work without supplying their own parts... Goodbye... 

An earlier call to a local VW dealer quoted me $900 parts + $1400 labor. That was when I decided buying my own parts was the way to go.


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## notwise (Nov 17, 2016)

*Anyone experienced with Phaeton service and maintenance expenses?*



Indianajohns said:


> Hi Scott, I'm a fellow new 04 Phaeton owner in the Columbus IN area.
> What IPOD adaptor did you install and do you like it?
> Thanks,
> John


I got the Dension gateway lite with USB to lightning cable. All in, $120. 

Not dissatisfied with it - installation was a snap. 

My challenge is that - follow me here - that some music has low enough bass notes that the digital to analog conversion of the Dension causes static distortion. It's only on really low notes - if I burn the track to a CD and play it, I get no distortion at all. So, it's not the Phaeton's audio amp, but the conversion that the Dension does....I think. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## gwiken65 (Jul 8, 2016)

notwise said:


> I got the Dension gateway lite with USB to lightning cable. All in, $120.
> 
> Not dissatisfied with it - installation was a snap.
> 
> ...


Hi.
If the signal into the DAC of the converter is a little high, the DAC can only output the highest number it has that is 2 to the power of number of bits of the DAC. Badly developed systems don't have a check for this. A compressor could be used in the design to control this phenomenon, but it alters the sound a bit. 

If possible you could lower the input signal to the unit. 

Wiken  

Skickat från min D6603 via Tapatalk


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## Indianajohns (Oct 26, 2016)

notwise said:


> I got the Dension gateway lite with USB to lightning cable. All in, $120.
> 
> Not dissatisfied with it - installation was a snap.
> 
> ...


Thanks I'll check it out.
john


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## notwise (Nov 17, 2016)

*Anyone experienced with Phaeton service and maintenance expenses?*



gwiken65 said:


> Hi.
> If the signal into the DAC of the converter is a little high, the DAC can only output the highest number it has that is 2 to the power of number of bits of the DAC. Badly developed systems don't have a check for this. A compressor could be used in the design to control this phenomenon, but it alters the sound a bit.
> 
> If possible you could lower the input signal to the unit.
> ...


Not sure I understand what you are saying - if the input to the DAC is digital, then how can the signal be 'high'? My thought is that Dension's DAC is a cheaper one that has a limited resolution - it can't model the super low end, so it produces static.

If I could tell the iPhone to limit the frequency range of its digital output by chopping off (compressing) the low end, then the Dension DAC could handle it. But to your point, sound quality would suffer. 

What I want to is get a better DAC!


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## gwiken65 (Jul 8, 2016)

notwise said:


> Not sure I understand what you are saying - if the input to the DAC is digital, then how can the signal be 'high'? My thought is that Dension's DAC is a cheaper one that has a limited resolution - it can't model the super low end, so it produces static.
> 
> If I could tell the iPhone to limit the frequency range of its digital output by chopping off (compressing) the low end, then the Dension DAC could handle it. But to your point, sound quality would suffer.
> 
> What I want to is get a better DAC!


Oh, it should be ADC of course. I'm so tired sometimes, with too much work in my head.  
I understand your confusion.

The ADC will convert the input signal from any analogue source, and the input level is important.
If the sound cracks, the signal could be too high, but it can also be impedance problem, if you use the headphone output from a mobile phone.
If the cracking becomes less when lowering the volume, the input stage of the unit is overdrivven. If it does'nt help, the problem happens in the unit. The load on the output can also be too high, causing problems, that might need adjusting circuit.
Wow, that was way too much I feel. 

Just keep trying some combinations, like lower the phone volume, try to lower the level of the file if you don't have a volume control. 
I'm sure you find the solution.
Wiken  

Skickat från min D6603 via Tapatalk


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## notwise (Nov 17, 2016)

gwiken65 said:


> Oh, it should be ADC of course. I'm so tired sometimes, with too much work in my head.
> I understand your confusion.
> 
> The ADC will convert the input signal from any analogue source, and the input level is important.
> ...


Ok - I have an update: when I play the same tracks through the igateway's headphone jack, there is no static or distortion at all. 

So, my 'lightning to dension' adapter is the culprit or the igateway if it does the DAC. 

If I look at the pinout of the cd changer cable, I see CD audio left and right - I'm wondering if I can leave the igateway there to handshake with the car and jack my new DAC directly into the cd audio pins?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## gwiken65 (Jul 8, 2016)

notwise said:


> Ok - I have an update: when I play the same tracks through the igateway's headphone jack, there is no static or distortion at all.
> 
> So, my 'lightning to dension' adapter is the culprit or the igateway if it does the DAC.
> 
> ...


All audio inputs have 667mV at 0dB over 600 ohms. This means when sending a signal of 667mV into a unit, like a tape-deck, the VU-meter shall point at 0 dB. If the impedance is missmatched and not 600 ohms, the signal might be very low, or it can also distort the sound. This if the impedance is far off.

Sorry for a long outlay.
If you try to connect and you get distortion or very low sound, you know why. 
Most units has input amplifiers and output amplifiers that compensates for the impedance. So it depends on the devices you connect together. 

But be careful, try another device first if you feel that something might break. 

Most modern electronics has very durable inputs and outputs, but something can break. 
If your DAC has no output amp, you can get an unwanted result.
Wiken 😁 

Skickat från min D6603 via Tapatalk


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## notwise (Nov 17, 2016)

gwiken65 said:


> All audio inputs have 667mV at 0dB over 600 ohms. This means when sending a signal of 667mV into a unit, like a tape-deck, the VU-meter shall point at 0 dB. If the impedance is missmatched and not 600 ohms, the signal might be very low, or it can also distort the sound. This if the impedance is far off.
> 
> Sorry for a long outlay.
> If you try to connect and you get distortion or very low sound, you know why.
> ...


That is good advice - thank you!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Melvivio (Feb 12, 2017)

I'll consider my self lucky than, that I can do some work myself. Since last saturday 18-02 I own a March 2005 short wheel base Phaeton v8, with currently 95.000 KM or 59.000 miles. Since '07 the car has missed out on proper dealer visits, so maintenance was questionable. 
What had been changed was:
Oil+ filters, interior carbon airfilters, brakepads front -discs have been re-used without flattening them, so some vibration is there-.

Luckily the car seems really solid, but for my own mindset I decided to do myself right away:
- sparkplug -were still factory-
- serpetine belt -was factory belt-
- brakefluid -wasn't changed for atleast five year-
- Engine airfilters -seemed to be replaced ones, but were dirty-
- Rain repellant on the windows -really do this..-
- fuel additive for cleaning injectors

Currently the bill on parts is just $300 excluding VAT, so $350,- when I'm done.
The car is checked with vagcom vdcs something and has zero faults & everything works.

What I plan to do:
- Some bushings seem to have some play in them
- Allignment
- HID xenon lights
- gearbox oil

This should be another $300,-. After this, a proper clean in and out and than the car is solid.

To me, the Phaeton can be run quite cheap. I did not expect that...


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

If you do it yourself, any car can be cheap! If you're going to do front control arm bushings, go with the OE or OEM ones, don't get aftermarket. I put the Powerflex on and I'm now regretting it to the point where I'm thinking about doing the job again with OE bushings. They're a bit more tricky because you have to orient them correctly, but considering how easy it was to push them out, I'm thinking it shouldn't be a big deal to push them in.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

invisiblewave said:


> If you do it yourself, any car can be cheap! If you're going to do front control arm bushings, go with the OE or OEM ones, don't get aftermarket. I put the Powerflex on and I'm now regretting it to the point where I'm thinking about doing the job again with OE bushings. They're a bit more tricky because you have to orient them correctly, but considering how easy it was to push them out, I'm thinking it shouldn't be a big deal to push them in.


I thought Powerflex were heavier duty than OEM. 

Aren't they U.K. made bushings? I think I heard of them being sold for E-Types. 


-Eric


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I've no idea where they're made or how "heavy duty" they are. They squeak like a ****ing banshee and they cause the tyres to wear on the inner edges.


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## s2kvondeutschland (Mar 19, 2011)

invisiblewave said:


> I've no idea where they're made or how "heavy duty" they are. They squeak like a ****ing banshee and they cause the tyres to wear on the inner edges.


Squealing is, unfortunately, par.for the course with poly bushings. You can try taking them out and slathering them with marine grease. 

As far as the tire wear goes... That's an alignment issue. What the bushings are made of has no impact on tire wear, only final geometry does. 

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

s2kvondeutschland said:


> Squealing is, unfortunately, par.for the course with poly bushings. You can try taking them out and slathering them with marine grease.
> 
> As far as the tire wear goes... That's an alignment issue. What the bushings are made of has no impact on tire wear, only final geometry does.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


I think I was confusing Powerflex with Metalastik, now that you mention Powerflex being poly bushings. 

-Eric


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

s2kvondeutschland said:


> Squealing is, unfortunately, par.for the course with poly bushings. You can try taking them out and slathering them with marine grease.
> 
> As far as the tire wear goes... That's an alignment issue. What the bushings are made of has no impact on tire wear, only final geometry does.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


Yes, I believe the bushings are affecting the geometry, they're allowing too much movement of the arms.


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## gwiken65 (Jul 8, 2016)

invisiblewave said:


> Yes, I believe the bushings are affecting the geometry, they're allowing too much movement of the arms.


The weight of the car is important, the P is quite heavy. 
Wiken  

Skickat från min D6603 via Tapatalk


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

gwiken65 said:


> The weight of the car is important, the P is quite heavy.
> Wiken
> 
> Skickat från min D6603 via Tapatalk


Yes, I suspect the weight has something to do with it, there's just a little more play in the bushings than in the OE ones.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Here's a video posted in Official Phaeton video thread by Paul, VWVortex user _Clearwater_:








I just merged this group of threads relating to Phaeton Running Costs, so here might be a good place to post any comments and personal experiences.

Chris


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Briefly, his costs over 4 years and 70,000 km (44,000 miles) were quoted as being like this (taking 1CHF=1USD) :

$220,000 original new cost of 4-seat W12 Phaeton in Switzerland
$21k purchase cost at 6 years old
$28.8k Maintenance & Repairs
$19.8k Fuel
$7.2k Insurance
$3.6k Taxes
$12k Depreciation


Chris


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## gwiken65 (Jul 8, 2016)

I have done all the service myself, and the things I replaced wasn't that drastic. 
I do have a garage with lift and a tire machine, so I can do it myself.
In my opinion there are 2 ways to own a P, one is leave it to the dealer and pay the bill, the other is to do it oneself.
I have not had any major breakdowns, beside some sensors I replaced and the break switch.
Wiken 



Skickat från min SM-G955F via Tapatalk


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

The video shows overall costs of $1 per mile.


My own 2005 V10 has cost the following amount through 71k miles driven since I bought it in Q3 2011:

£18,362 Maintenance and Repairs (mostly, but not all, main dealer. Largest cost was a new steering rack).
£16,151 Diesel fuel at about 30mpg Imperial
£10,450 Depreciation, estimated
£7,200 Taxes and Insurance

There were also 2 episodes of door skin repairs or replacements under the 12-year body warranty at 5 years old and 11 years old, at no cost to me.

That works out at 73.5 pence per mile (£52,163 / 71,000) which is $0.95 per mile.



Talking of 6-litre cars, my Jeep Hemi cost more per mile over 9 years and 35k miles.

£8,262 Maintenance and Repairs
£13,028 Petrol fuel at about 14 mpg Imperial
£6,300 Depreciation
£7,200 Taxes and Insurance

That's 99.4 pence per mile (£34,790 / 35,000) which is $1.30 per mile.



It would be interesting to hear other folk's experiences with Phaetons or other comparative cars.

Chris


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

gwiken65 said:


> I have done all the service myself, and the things I replaced wasn't that drastic.
> I do have a garage with lift and a tire machine, so I can do it myself.
> In my opinion there are 2 ways to own a P, one is leave it to the dealer and pay the bill, the other is to do it oneself.


Right. This guy just likes spending money. The dealer must have been rubbing their grubby hands every time he showed up.


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## gwiken65 (Jul 8, 2016)

invisiblewave said:


> Right. This guy just likes spending money. The dealer must have been rubbing their grubby hands every time he showed up.




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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

invisiblewave said:


> Right. This guy just likes spending money. The dealer must have been rubbing their grubby hands every time he showed up.


If I had a shop, I would do all of my own work also but I probably saved enough money fixing my washer and my oven last week to pay for the last time I had the dealer do something I couldn't do. (Checking my "spare" AGM batteries cost $60.00 + tax.) 

Two major appliances I bought new decided to break around the same time.

The washer broke the middle of last month but I had to wait until the end of the month to order parts. I didn't want porch pirates to steal washer parts when I was out of town. The oven broke early this month but I fixed it without having to buy anything.


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## Jim_CT (Jan 25, 2006)

According to the IRS, an average car in the US costs 57.5cts/mile. The Phaeton is more expensive, but I believe it is within my expectations for total ownership costs; it's my daily driver, I have 215K on it, and it's over 15 years old.

The biggest unexpected expense was a fistful of speeding tickets which, of course, is not my fault (the car is too smooth and the entire state of New York is a speed trap). Fortunately, after only a couple of years, I adapted. Last year I looked at other cars, but stuck with repairing the Phaeton. That turned out to be a relatively expensive decision, but still less than a new comparable car. I have a VAG-COM and do a lot of small things - like the headlight replacements - as a DIY. For bigger jobs, that plenty of members would do on their home lifts or at their local shops, my local dealer has been very good for me. 

The Forum has been the single greatest factor in diagnosing problems and reducing repair costs. We also get to see some very interesting things with owners fixing complicated problems in innovative ways.

Jim


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

Jim_CT said:


> Last year I looked at other cars, but stuck with repairing the Phaeton. That turned out to be a relatively expensive decision, but still less than a new comparable car.
> 
> Jim


If you throw new cars into the mix, it's no contest. Depreciation + new car insurance + new car payments would be more than the average cost of Phaeton ownership. A used car always wins that round. I have bought used cars that needed a bunch of repairs upfront but then they were good for years. 

If you buy a new comparable car you are limited to a Bentley Continental Flying Spur with no extras. 

I would want everything VWOA wouldn't let us get on a Phaeton that was available in ROW. Rear seat tray tables, rear headrest monitors, paddle shifters, keyless start, contrasting piping on the seats, fridge, etc...



Coming down a bit but still staying "Continental":

I like the Lincoln Continental but it doesn't even have a V8. 

The optional engine on the 2020 Lincoln Continental Black Label is a 3.0 liter twin turbo, so half the engine of a Bentley Continental.

The lease on that Black Label for 48 months is $819.00 a month. That's to lease it. 

To finance it over 72 months is $992.00 a month. That's after a $7,120 down payment. Go for 36 months at 0% interest rate +$500.00 and it's $1,767.00 a month.


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

For the last couple of years, other than oil, mine's only needed the combi valve vacuum lines. The last big job I did was the oil cooler pipe. Anyone who pays dealer prices for brakes has more money than sense.


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

invisiblewave said:


> Anyone who pays dealer prices for brakes has more money than sense.


That's for sure. Didn't you use Zimmerman rotors?

Another thing I'd try to get cheaper is the suspension arms. You can find them for les money but it's piece by piece. 

A Bentley web site has everything in a kit, but some of the parts are by Meyle. That kit is still bloody expensive.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

There are lots of parts shared with Bentley Continental and Flying Spur, but that's hardly a route to a discount...

The V10 front disks are expensive but only available from VW, no aftermarket parts exist, although they are shared by a Lamborghini. Ditto the steering rack, which has a different spec for each weight of Phaeton, and the V10 version can't be easily refurbished by a third party because the bore seems to be unique.

Some sensor parts are also shared with the VW Polo, which was the first VAG higher-volume car to incorporate the P wave of technology developments way back.

Chris


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> That's for sure. Didn't you use Zimmerman rotors?
> 
> Another thing I'd try to get cheaper is the suspension arms. You can find them for les money but it's piece by piece.
> 
> A Bentley web site has everything in a kit, but some of the parts are by Meyle. That kit is still bloody expensive.


Right. Any half-decent mechanic can change the control arms. I do, indeed, have Zimmerman rotors on the front at the moment. The car in the video is a Euro W12, so it has the bigger brakes, but there's nothing difficult about changing them, you could get them done anywhere, no need for a dealer.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

Tons of wear item parts are readily available non-dealer for waaay less money.


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