# Prototype Cams! [With Dyno!]



## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Prototype Cams!*

The same guys at LateNightTuning that just released a dyno of their CAI just told me that they will be posting up a dyno of their prototype *CAMS* too!
CAMS!
CAMS!
CAMS!
Sorry.








I'm too excited, stay tuned for the dyno jpg. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by @[email protected] at 12:31 AM 2-17-2007_


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## Slipstream (Feb 8, 2002)

*Re: Prototype Cams! [With Dyno!] (@[email protected])*

Dude, I know you're excited, but let them handle their business on here.


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## osteor10 (May 15, 2006)

*Re: Prototype Cams! [With Dyno!] (Slipstream)*

im rdy for that jpg already! lol. going to be interesting to see what they could do with the 2.5


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## the s is silent (Jul 17, 2004)

*Re: Prototype Cams! [With Dyno!] (@[email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *@[email protected]* »_The same guys at LateNightTuning that just released a dyno of their CAI just told me that they will be posting up a dyno of their prototype *CAMS* too!
CAMS!
CAMS!
CAMS!
Sorry.








I'm too excited, stay tuned for the dyno jpg. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I vote this biggest mis-named thread of the week. There are no dynos in here...there aren't even cams. All we have is rumors. 
Settle. Patience grasshoppa.


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: Prototype Cams! [With Dyno!] (the s is silent)*

*They aren't rumors. IM him yourself.*
*[email protected]*
He is a Vortex advertiser and told me he hopes to have the dyno up today or tomorrow. The cams are made already they just need to dyno. They are also the same guys who just dyno'd their CAI and got good gains.
And I posted this for them because the last time they posted the dyno they chose a random turbo thread....











_Modified by @[email protected] at 12:31 AM 2-17-2007_


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## rental_metard (Jul 17, 2006)

GTI I hope you are proven wrong by [email protected] posting a .bmp / .tiff / .png or .gif *pushes up glasses*


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (rental_metard)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rental_metard* »_GTI I hope you are proven wrong by [email protected] posting a .bmp / .tiff / .png or .gif *pushes up glasses*

I hope that was sarcasm... I wanna see what diff cams will do. We got more then expected gains from a filter on a stick, the cams are pretty sleepy and boring too, maybe it too can wake the bunny up. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## tsalani @ lnt (Sep 21, 2005)

*Re: (@[email protected])*

Hey,
Yes it is true. We have been working on cams for the 2.5. We do have a few different sets we will be testing out over the next few months. I hoped to have a dyno today but that did not happen. I should be able to get the car finished and on the dyno by tuesday.
T


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## rental_metard (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: (@[email protected])*

of course that was sarcasm. You said he was posting a .jpg he would prove you wrong if you posted any other image format.


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (rental_metard)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rental_metard* »_of course that was sarcasm. You said he was posting a .jpg he would prove you wrong if you posted any other image format.









The dyno for the CAI he posted was in jpg format! So the odds are on my side!
and see, I told you so! Rumor? Nope.










_Modified by @[email protected] at 3:31 AM 2-17-2007_


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## the s is silent (Jul 17, 2004)

*Re: (@[email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *@[email protected]* »_
The dyno for the CAI he posted was in jpg format! So the odds are on my side!
and see, I told you so! Rumor? Nope.









_Modified by @[email protected] at 3:31 AM 2-17-2007_

Lol...I was just giving you a hard time.








BUT...I still don't see a dyno plot


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (the s is silent)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the s is silent* »_
Lol...I was just giving you a hard time.








BUT...I still don't see a dyno plot









Give they other guy crap, not me.
Don't shoot the messenger!


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## dead0narrivel (Aug 7, 2005)

*Re: (@[email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *@[email protected]* »_
Give they other guy crap, not me.
Don't shoot the messenger!

from a subjective view... (where as i barely post on topics where you make your claims...such as the original posts you had about the intake) your not so much of a messenger as... lets say the boy who cried wolf...
your all about telling people stuff that you cant back up for a little while...as ive always been told the proof is in the pudding..please wait until youve got the proof until you post it... and NO that doesnt mean asking XX
not meaning to hate..we're all on the same team here...it just starts un-needed conflicts


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## ahson (Jul 23, 2000)

*Re: (dead0narrivel)*

Yea, what's up with the thread topic? With dyno? Very misleading.


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (dead0narrivel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dead0narrivel* »_
from a subjective view... (where as i barely post on topics where you make your claims...such as the original posts you had about the intake) your not so much of a messenger as... lets say the boy who cried wolf...
your all about telling people stuff that you cant back up for a little while...as ive always been told the proof is in the pudding..please wait until youve got the proof until you post it... and NO that doesnt mean asking XX
not meaning to hate..we're all on the same team here...it just starts un-needed conflicts

Whats the problem here? You heard from the man himself that it's true. He's an advertiser on here. Whatelse do you want? I was just sharing with everyone that Cams are on their way and a dyno will follow shortly...
When have I cried wolf you douche? http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## dead0narrivel (Aug 7, 2005)

*Re: (@[email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *@[email protected]* »_
Whats the problem here? You heard from the man himself that it's true. He's an advertiser on here. Whatelse do you want? I was just sharing with everyone that Cams are on their way and a dyno will follow shortly...
When have I cried wolf you douche? http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

first of all relax.... i was simply saying you grab everyones attention as much as you can... and dont have solid evidence... alright yea the advertiser came in and vouched for you... but you had your intake post for a couple weeks with skeptical information on it... also the advertiser said it would be a couple months from completion... i understand quality takes time... but you make a thread [With Dyno!]...without a dyno... and it will be a long time before these things are in production... i understand everyone wants to know when new developments are going to be made to mod our cars... 
i guess i was in a bad mood when i replied to the post and i skipped over where the advertiser had come in... like i said before im not meaning to hate 
as for the douche comment it was slightly unnecessary, it is the dirty mouthed attitude like that, that ruins this forum. we get enough **** from the big bad 2.0t owners flaming, and as for the boy who cried wolf comment it was mostly in a sarcastic tone... and i never said you couldnt back your stuff up.. like i said you do, it just takes a long time, and with everyone is obviously going to be skeptical until they see proof...


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## Blacked2.5s (Jan 14, 2007)

*Re: (dead0narrivel)*

Damn, there are some whiney people on these forums. All of you need to relax. Patience! GTI, post whatever the hell you want. You seem to know a lot more than any of these morons on this forum.


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (dead0narrivel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dead0narrivel* »_
first of all relax.... i was simply saying you grab everyones attention as much as you can... and dont have solid evidence... alright yea the advertiser came in and vouched for you... but you had your intake post for a couple weeks with skeptical information on it... also the advertiser said it would be a couple months from completion... i understand quality takes time... but you make a thread [With Dyno!]...without a dyno... and it will be a long time before these things are in production... i understand everyone wants to know when new developments are going to be made to mod our cars... 
i guess i was in a bad mood when i replied to the post and i skipped over where the advertiser had come in... like i said before im not meaning to hate 
as for the douche comment it was slightly unnecessary, it is the dirty mouthed attitude like that, that ruins this forum. we get enough **** from the big bad 2.0t owners flaming, and as for the boy who cried wolf comment it was mostly in a sarcastic tone... and i never said you couldnt back your stuff up.. like i said you do, it just takes a long time, and with everyone is obviously going to be skeptical until they see proof...

I have never posted any skeptical info about the CAI. Never. You and some others decided to be skeptical even though a dyno was provided.
I hardly ever lunge out and make dirty insults towards people, but when i'm constantly being harassed about the dyno's and stuff I post it gets frustrating. Nobody believes anything I say, and I have done nothing but tell the truth. I apologize for that, you didn't deserve that insult.
The advertiser told me he would get the dyno up the same day I made this thread, but he is obviously busy with his work (which is more important) and didn't get around to it.
And I didn't say the cams were finished, I said they're coming, and a dyno is too on Tuesday (According to the LNT advertiser as per this thread) 











_Modified by @[email protected] at 11:36 PM 2-18-2007_


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## dead0narrivel (Aug 7, 2005)

*Re: (@[email protected])*

its all good...water under the bridge... im hoping for great results


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (dead0narrivel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dead0narrivel* »_its all good...water under the bridge... im hoping for great results









That's one thing i'm expecting. I had little hope for mod's making big gains because I treated this motor like the VR6, in N/A form it's hard to push past 200hp. But I was proven wrong with the recent CAI's released, looks like we have a sleeping giant maybe?
The intake system is horrible, with a CAI we open up a whole new ball game.
The cams look Martha Steward_ish_ also so i'm hoping these guys at LNT show us something sexy in terms of gains http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VW_tayder (Oct 4, 2005)

*Re: (tsalani @ lnt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tsalani @ lnt* »_Hey,
Yes it is true. We have been working on cams for the 2.5. We do have a few different sets we will be testing out over the next few months. I hoped to have a dyno today but that did not happen. I should be able to get the car finished and on the dyno by tuesday.
T

u rock..
keep us posted.


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## dead0narrivel (Aug 7, 2005)

*Re: (@[email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *@[email protected]* »_
That's one thing i'm expecting. I had little hope for mod's making big gains because I treated this motor like the VR6, in N/A form it's hard to push past 200hp. But I was proven wrong with the recent CAI's released, looks like we have a sleeping giant maybe?
The intake system is horrible, with a CAI we open up a whole new ball game.
The cams look Martha Steward_ish_ also so i'm hoping these guys at LNT show us something sexy in terms of gains http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

what is the usual price range for a set of cams? and how hardcore is the installation? (if i were to go to a shop to have it done)


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (dead0narrivel)*

I have heard around $700 USD for VR6 Cams, but that's TT and they aren't the cheapest around.
I paid $99 for my MKII Autotech 8v cam








He did say though somewhere that the CAI and Cams will both be powerful, relieable, and affordable...so who knows?
Most companys charge $300+ for CAI's and we saw VWPartsMTL sell em for $250 so maybe since they're a small shop also they can sell for cheaper?
Installation is pretty critical and important. If you miss something that could mean your cams flying around at up to 5,800 rpm, and if not fastened right or lubricated with the special lobe paste, you could do some damage. My mechanic did my cam for me on my 8v and it took like 40 minutes. Remove the valve cover and gasket, undo the bolt on the timing gear, remove old cam, then theres the prep of the new cam and setting of the timing back again. It's more complicated they you'd think.


_Modified by @[email protected] at 1:46 AM 2-19-2007_


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## dead0narrivel (Aug 7, 2005)

yeah ive seen some vr6 cams priced from 200-400 from JS Performance... but how intensive is the installation?


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (dead0narrivel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dead0narrivel* »_yeah I've seen some vr6 cams priced from 200-400 from JS Performance... but how intensive is the installation?


I'd say very intensive compared to a CAI. lol.
I won't do the install myself, I don't trust myself enough. When I think about how fast that spins and the clearance it needs from the valve covers, and how well it's bolted...it scares me.
There is a lot of preparation of the new cams, that's all I can emphasize.


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## huevosrancheros (Dec 13, 2006)

*Re: (@[email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *@[email protected]* »_

There is a lot of preparation of the new cams, that's all I can emphasize.









http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Indeed there is a a lot of prep, work, you have the same mindset as you would have when performing surgery on a person. Precision, precision, precision.


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (huevosrancheros)*


_Quote, originally posted by *huevosrancheros* »_
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Indeed there is a a lot of prep, work, you have the same mindset as you would have when performing surgery on a person. Precision, precision, precision.

Can't stress this enough. I won't touch it, i'm too much of a pansey at this stage to fiddle with a new car that i'm making payments on. If it were my MKII, give me a hammer and a case of 24 and i'm ready to take her under the knife.


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## tsalani @ lnt (Sep 21, 2005)

*Re: (@[email protected])*

Dynoed today however conditions were not the same. Preliminary results do look promising. We will continue testing and I will post up a dyno as soon as I can.
T


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (tsalani @ lnt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tsalani @ lnt* »_Dynoed today however conditions were not the same. Preliminary results do look promising. We will continue testing and I will post up a dyno as soon as I can.
T

Good stuff on getting to the dyno, but what do you mean conditions were not the same? Something wrong with the car unrelated?








Goodluck to you guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## ~kInG~ (Jun 8, 2005)

*Re: (@[email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *@[email protected]* »_
Good stuff on getting to the dyno, but what do you mean conditions were not the same? Something wrong with the car unrelated?








Goodluck to you guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

maybe atmospheric conditions were not the same, ie ambient temperature...


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## the s is silent (Jul 17, 2004)

*Re: (@[email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *@[email protected]* »_
Good stuff on getting to the dyno, but what do you mean conditions were not the same? Something wrong with the car unrelated?








Goodluck to you guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

In order to properly compare dyno results (with cams vs. baseline) you have to remove as many variables as possible. For starters, it needs to be done on the same dyno. For finishers, the ambient conditions have to be the same. Temperature, humidity, barometric pressure(maybe?). Regardless...if any of those change, the differences in the plots will be misleading.
I hope to see results soon. What's the setup of the test car?


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## QuiescentPlunge (Aug 9, 2006)

Will these cams have a specific chipping available for an additional fee?
Also proper valve seats and port polishing? (Ok, I'm only dreaming about those)


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## Giancarlo (Aug 10, 2000)

*Re: (tsalani @ lnt)*

Can you give us a little hint on how promising? like 5hp? 20hp? I know these numbers will not be set in stone one qay or the other as they are prototype results, but it would be great for us to know what you guys are seeing.
Thanks for updating and developing stuff for our 2.5's.


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## herbehop (May 4, 2004)

*Re: (tsalani @ lnt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tsalani @ lnt* »_Dynoed today however conditions were not the same. Preliminary results do look promising. We will continue testing and I will post up a dyno as soon as I can.
T

Exactly ~how promising?


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## tsalani @ lnt (Sep 21, 2005)

*Re: (herbehop)*

I am sure some of you have noticed even though the 2.5 revs up to 5800 rpms, going beyond 5000 is pointless. The car runs out of steam and power drops off quickly. The first set of cams seems to have dramatically reduced that drop off in power. As well we have been seeing an increase of 12peak hp and up to 15hp throughout some parts of the rpm range.
These results should be taken lightly. As stated before conditions were a bit different. Ambient temperature was about 15 degrees cooler than our last dyno and we were running the stock airbox this time around. 
All of our testing has been on the stock ECU, however we will soon be working with GIAC on software for the 2.5.


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (tsalani @ lnt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tsalani @ lnt* »_I am sure some of you have noticed even though the 2.5 revs up to 5800 rpms, going beyond 5000 is pointless. The car runs out of steam and power drops off quickly. The first set of cams seems to have dramatically reduced that drop off in power. As well we have been seeing an increase of *12peak hp and up to 15hp throughout some parts of the rpm range.*
These results should be taken lightly. As stated before conditions were a bit different. Ambient temperature was about 15 degrees cooler than our last dyno and we were running the stock airbox this time around. 
All of our testing has been on the stock ECU, however *we will soon be working with GIAC on software for the 2.5*.

Not bad for a start even though you haven't fully got to it's potential.
And very exciting to see someone else will try to come up with an ECU upgrade for us.
Kudos for the aggressive pursuing of mods for us 2.5 guys. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
You could be the very first company to release a almost all the bolt ons for us. Maybe make a kit some day, Chip, Cam, CAI, and Exhaust?







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by @[email protected] at 1:35 AM 2-21-2007_


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## the s is silent (Jul 17, 2004)

*Re: (tsalani @ lnt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tsalani @ lnt* »_I am sure some of you have noticed even though the 2.5 revs up to 5800 rpms, going beyond 5000 is pointless. The car runs out of steam and power drops off quickly. The first set of cams seems to have dramatically reduced that drop off in power. As well we have been seeing an increase of 12peak hp and up to 15hp throughout some parts of the rpm range.
These results should be taken lightly. As stated before conditions were a bit different. Ambient temperature was about 15 degrees cooler than our last dyno and we were running the stock airbox this time around. 
All of our testing has been on the stock ECU, however we will soon be working with GIAC on software for the 2.5.

I'd really like to see what the cams could do for the powerband with a free flowing exhaust manifold or header instead of the stocker. It looks to be a big part of why the engine won't make power above 5k. Is this the conclusion y'all have come to as well?
If anybody ever has the stock exhaust manifold off a head, could you measure the dimensions of the port for me (or at least give me a straight on picture with a tape measure as a scale reference)? I'm curious to see what kind of flow area (and therefor velocities) we are dealing with.


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (the s is silent)*

I'm interested in seeing how well the cams run with other mods too.
We all know ICE+Cams all work better and more powerful when combined...
If it isn't too much, I'd like to see the cams alone after stock, then combined with a CAI and an exhaust. Bet there's even more to gain. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Giancarlo (Aug 10, 2000)

*Re: (@[email protected])*

OK, I am oficially excited about this, I was really taking a hard look at a turbo kit, but maybe with the CAI (which I will buy next week) and cams with chip we could get to 200hp crank and that might be enough, or maybe the cams plus the turbo gives great gains and I will go that way, but the turbo kit might be way to expensive, so I am really excited about cams and a chip.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Im curous to know...
What over-all durations are being considered for this engine? Lobe centers, centerlines, lifts.....


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## VW_tayder (Oct 4, 2005)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_Im curous to know...
What over-all durations are being considered for this engine? Lobe centers, centerlines, lifts..... 

x 2


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (Giancarlo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Giancarlo* »_OK, I am oficially excited about this, I was really taking a hard look at a turbo kit, but maybe with the CAI (which I will buy next week) and cams with chip we could get to 200hp crank and that might be enough, or maybe the cams plus the turbo gives great gains and I will go that way, but the turbo kit might be way to expensive, so I am really excited about cams and a chip.


Honestly, putting a turbo kit in my brandnew 2.5 that i'm still paying for scares the crap out of me. 
I'm with you bro. I'd rather just put in some Cams, CAI, Exhaust, and maybe Chip (If someone comes out with one!) and push 200hp+ 220tq+ to the crank. I'd be VERY happy with that. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## huevosrancheros (Dec 13, 2006)

*Re: (@[email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *@[email protected]* »_
Honestly, putting a turbo kit in my brandnew 2.5 that i'm still paying for scares the crap out of me. 
I'm with you bro. I'd rather just put in some Cams, CAI, Exhaust, and maybe Chip (If someone comes out with one!) and push 200hp+ 220tq+ to the crank. I'd be VERY happy with that. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


x2, Tired of modding, That's why I got a Rabbit. If there is anything I am going to do, is A CAI, Greddy Exhaust, and a Chip(When available) and definitely a set of nice cams. Then your'e good to go with realiability and dependa







bility.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_Im curous to know...
What over-all durations are being considered for this engine? Lobe centers, centerlines, lifts..... 

*tap tap tap*
Hello-o-o-o.....is this thing on?


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## SuperChicken13 (Dec 6, 2003)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_
*tap tap tap*
Hello-o-o-o.....is this thing on?

Why should they tell you, are you paying for their R&D time?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (SuperChicken13)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SuperChicken13* »_
Why should they tell you, are you paying for their R&D time?

What the hell kind of question is that? Yea, they SHOULD tell me...and everyone reading this post...what durations they plan on going with. They are going to *have* to list the cam specs when they go to sell the cams anyways. Who in their right mind would EVER buy a part as important as a camshaft based on a dyno sheet? Nobody. Anyone building up ther head/valvetrain is going to want to know the grind specs so they can properly built their head...or at the very least, have an idea of how the camshaft will perform before-hand.


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## dead0narrivel (Aug 7, 2005)

patience is the name of the game right now, it will be a long time before the finished product is out and theres no sense in distracted them from their R+D and being annoying with your comments... why push them for numbers and try and make them 1/2 ass stuff just to get results, itll all come out in due time and the product will be better for it... stuff like this just cant be put together in a day


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

I dont think asking what camshaft durations they are working is in the least bit "distracting". If they have time to post this thread to generate interest, they can post what they plan on going with.


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## flynavyj (Jan 26, 2007)

Really get P.O'd every time i see that "entitled" attitude. Dude, chill, They don't HAVE to tell you the specs on anything. And for that matter, what person would buy a camshaft w/o specs, agreed, but hey, you aren't gonna buy it till its on the market, and by the time its on the market, you'll probably have the specs won't ya. Another note, if they freakin wanted to, they wouldn't have to sell the camshaft at all, and guess what...they'd have cams, and you wouldn't...now i bet that get you all roulled up even more than not having specs.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (flynavyj)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flynavyj* »_Really get P.O'd every time i see that "entitled" attitude. Dude, chill, They don't HAVE to tell you the specs on anything. And for that matter, what person would buy a camshaft w/o specs, agreed, but hey, you aren't gonna buy it till its on the market, and by the time its on the market, you'll probably have the specs won't ya. Another note, if they freakin wanted to, they wouldn't have to sell the camshaft at all, and guess what...they'd have cams, and you wouldn't...now i bet that get you all roulled up even more than not having specs. 

Entitled? Are you serious? I'm curious, thats all. In fact, Im shocked that Im the only one asking about this. Do all you guys just read posts from others on this forum with dyno sheets, then run out and buy the part? Seriously. I dont think its out of the question for the manufacturer to fill us in on which durations they are experimenting with. Damn, you all need to lighten up. Im only trying to get more info for us all.
*edit* I PM'd the manufacturer. At least they won't throw **** at me for asking. 


_Modified by tdogg74 at 12:25 PM 2-22-2007_


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## SuperChicken13 (Dec 6, 2003)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_
Entitled? Are you serious? I'm curious, thats all. In fact, Im shocked that Im the only one asking about this. Do all you guys just read posts from others on this forum with dyno sheets, then run out and buy the part? Seriously. I dont think its out of the question for the OP to fill us in on which durations they are experimenting with. Damn, you all need to lighten up. Im only trying to get more info for us all.

A manufacturer doesn't have to tell you everything about their product. If it works, buy it. If it doesn't, don't. Simple.
All they have to do, is identify what application their cams will work with. They could say these are Stage 1 cams, or they could call them OMGWTFBBQ! cams, as long as there was some sort of scale and it related to the RPM range a customer was looking for. Specs are provided as a courtesy, not an obligation.
Think about it, a competitor could be reading this thread (and I'm sure there are), and if LNT posted their cam specs, he could go out and get them cut, and come to market with the cams before LNT did, and it would be perfectly legal because they disclosed their information on a public medium.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (SuperChicken13)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SuperChicken13* »_
A manufacturer doesn't have to tell you everything about their product. If it works, buy it. If it doesn't, don't. Simple.
All they have to do, is identify what application their cams will work with. They could say these are Stage 1 cams, or they could call them OMGWTFBBQ! cams, as long as there was some sort of scale and it related to the RPM range a customer was looking for. Specs are provided as a courtesy, not an obligation.
Think about it, a competitor could be reading this thread (and I'm sure there are), and if LNT posted their cam specs, he could go out and get them cut, and come to market with the cams before LNT did, and it would be perfectly legal because they disclosed their information on a public medium.

This post proves that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You should stop posting, lest you make more of a fool of yourself. 
You CANNOT modify an engine properly unless you know what you are putting in. Information like this is how 'normal' people plan and build up their engines. ALL camshaft manufacturers distribute the grind specs. Courtesy and obligation have nothing to do with it. Nobody is going to buy a camshaft that the manufacturer says Buy this and get 15hp.








All the manufactures that sell camshafts list the specs of their camshafts: Techtonic Tuning, Autotech, Cat Cam, Schrick, Piper, Elgin, Neuspeed, Eurospec Sport, ect.
The specs are put out there for the public so the know what the hell they are buying so the can buy the cam that is going to perform to their goals.


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## BuddyWh (Nov 11, 2006)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_The specs are put out there for the public so the know what the hell they are buying so the can buy the cam that is going to perform to their goals. 
 
Just my observation... I think I see the truth in this. I don't see how there could be anything "magical" about the spec's of a cam, they are easily measured from a sample cam and would probably be impossible to protect under patents, etc.
Spec's aside, what you are buying, when you buy a cam is the reputation of the company that makes it: good metal alloys used, good machining, good heat treatment, knowledge that they have tested their product before throwing it out to an unsuspecting public.
As I said... just my .02c...


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## SuperChicken13 (Dec 6, 2003)

*Re: (BuddyWh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BuddyWh* »_ 
I don't see how there could be anything "magical" about the spec's of a cam, they are easily measured from a sample cam and would probably be impossible to protect under patents, etc.

Exactly, you can measure the specs or just wait for them to be released. What I'm getting at is they don't need to publish them while the product is still in development.


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## BuddyWh (Nov 11, 2006)

*Re:*

This is generating a lot of interest!!
Question... how hard is it to change the cam's in our 2.5l engines? I know the cam chain is at the back of the motors... between motor and tranny... does that complicate things?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (BuddyWh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BuddyWh* »_ 
Just my observation... I think I see the truth in this. I don't see how there could be anything "magical" about the spec's of a cam, they are easily measured from a sample cam and would probably be impossible to protect under patents, etc.

Exactly. All you need is a Cam Doctor and you can send the cam card to anyone who makes custom cams. Its that easy.

_Quote, originally posted by *BuddyWh* »_ Spec's aside, what you are buying, when you buy a cam is the reputation of the company that makes it: good metal alloys used, good machining, good heat treatment, knowledge that they have tested their product before throwing it out to an unsuspecting public.
As I said... just my .02c...

Keep in mind also, just because it's the most expensive on the market, does NOT make it the best. I'm a MKIII 2.0 guy. Of the many cam manufactures that make products for my engine, Schrick is by far the MOST expensive. Any one of their sticks are about $340. I currently run a Techtonics Tuning 276*. Same quality as the Schrick 276*....just way _less_ in price. The difference in power between the two manufactures cams are only noticable on a dyno. (yea, the difference is that small). But there are manufactures that put out under-par product, thats true.
Look, Im just curious to know how aggressive you can go with this engine.


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## SuperChicken13 (Dec 6, 2003)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_
Look, Im just curious to know how aggressive you can go with this engine. 


We're all curious. I see life past 7200 rpm for this motor, but if a shop is going to spend the $ on researching cams, let them profit from their research for a bit before someone goes and copies their specs.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (SuperChicken13)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SuperChicken13* »_
I see life past 7200 rpm for this motor

Compression ratio is 9.5:1, so that eliminates any issues with lift. That means an aggressive lift might be used which would show a gain throughout the entire rpm band. My main concern was the duration. I know in the MKIV 2.0's, duration was limited due to the Motronic ignition not liking the excessive valve overlap. Biggest cam I know of was a 270* with a 112* centerline before it tripped the CEL and ran like poo.
One of my concerns was how aggressive can you go with the duration vs the centerlines before you trip a CEL. If they have to stay relatively mild, than all the added power generated from the cams will be low-mid rpms. You dont get much high rpm gains without a lot of valve overlap.


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## Giancarlo (Aug 10, 2000)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

I would like to hear if they are planning on moving the red line with the cams or just letting the engine breathe better up to the 5800 redline.

25-30hp from cams and CAI realistic? maybe you would have to throw in a chip too, but hey a 30hp increase is GREAT in my book. Sure the turbo will end up having a little more than a 30hp bump, but that will be a lot more $.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Another reason why i ask...all you guys are doing all this modding now, what if you plan on going FI later on. Some cams work, some dont. Info like this now would benefiet you later on.


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## SuperChicken13 (Dec 6, 2003)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_Compression ratio is 9.5:1, so that eliminates any issues with lift. That means an aggressive lift might be used which would show a gain throughout the entire rpm band. My main concern was the duration. I know in the MKIV 2.0's, duration was limited due to the Motronic ignition not liking the excessive valve overlap. Biggest cam I know of was a 270* with a 112* centerline before it tripped the CEL and ran like poo.
One of my concerns was how aggressive can you go with the duration vs the centerlines before you trip a CEL. If they have to stay relatively mild, than all the added power generated from the cams will be low-mid rpms. You dont get much high rpm gains without a lot of valve overlap.

True, but what says you have to stay at 9.5:1 compression?
Edit: In my books, if you're going to tune the 2.5 for NA, higher compression is the first thing that has to change. 
The ABA starts with 9.6:1 compression, but drop in some 16v 11:1 pistons for some fun. The Gallardo.....










_Modified by SuperChicken13 at 11:36 AM 2-22-2007_


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Im just saying, the stock compression gives a lot of lee-way with lift variations. Might make up for a little if the duration has to stay somewhat tame.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (SuperChicken13)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SuperChicken13* »_
In my books, if you're going to tune the 2.5 for NA, higher compression is the first thing that has to change. 
The ABA starts with 9.6:1 compression, but drop in some 16v 11:1 pistons for some fun. The Gallardo.....











You will def need higher compression with a big cam to be most efficient. A fast-road cam set wouldnt need a bump really, but of course it will help low end. Like i said, it all depends on what the limitations are of the durations allowed.
The ABA actually has between 9.8-9.9:1. When i rebuilt my head last winter, I CC'd the chambers in a stock head and the new head that was ported & polished at RSD in Germany (It has polished combustion chambers) Both still measured under 10:1. Once I decked the head .04", my compression afterwards was 10.75:1.


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_
Entitled? Are you serious? I'm curious, thats all. In fact, Im shocked that Im the only one asking about this. Do all you guys just read posts from others on this forum with dyno sheets, then run out and buy the part? Seriously. I dont think its out of the question for the manufacturer to fill us in on which durations they are experimenting with. Damn, you all need to lighten up. Im only trying to get more info for us all.
*edit* I PM'd the manufacturer. At least they won't throw **** at me for asking. 

_Modified by tdogg74 at 12:25 PM 2-22-2007_

Rofl, this thing is no where near done yet mang. Read the topic title, *PROTOTYPE*. When and if the results are good enough and we all show interest, details like specs and pricing and all that good stuff will be released to us.
I understand where you're getting at though, but you need to be patient. You're looking for specs like 270 or 268 rught? Something as simple as that?
I plan to *NOT *go turbo ever. 
*My goal:* To have the car run just like the day I bought it, be relieable and have 200hp and 220tq. Cams, Exhaust, CAI, Chip, and maybe a Header would easily put me there. Heck, i'll be @200tq with just the damn CAI.










_Modified by @[email protected] at 12:34 AM 2-23-2007_


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (@[email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *@[email protected]* »_
Rofl, this thing is no where near done yet mang. Read the topic title, *PROTOTYPE*. When and if the results are good enough and we all show interest, details like specs and pricing and all that good stuff will be released to us.


I dont believe I ever asked for results.....just what durations they were considering.


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_
I dont believe I ever asked for results.....just what durations they were considering. 

read carefully, I didn't say you asked for results. I said that *WHEN* the results are good enough, *they will release specs on the cams and other information.*


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: Prototype Cams! [With Dyno!] (@[email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *@[email protected]* »_*They aren't rumors. IM him yourself.*
*[email protected]*
He is a Vortex advertiser and told me he hopes to have the dyno up today or tomorrow. *The cams are made already they just need to dyno.* They are also the same guys who just dyno'd their CAI and got good gains.
And I posted this for them because the last time they posted the dyno they chose a random turbo thread....








_Modified by @[email protected] at 12:31 AM 2-17-2007_

Looks like YOU need to learn how to read. I was originally responding off of YOUR post. If the cams are done like YOU posted and we're just waiting for a dyno, then why is everyone in here jumping up my ass for asking a very simple question? I dont understand.







I dont see why sharing the durations they are using has to be such a ****ing secret. It all just leads me to believe that none of you really give a **** about what you put in your motors, as long as it has a dyno sheet attached to it with high numbers. A _REAL_ motor head would be up their ass bugging for questions. Instead, your all flaming me for my curiosity. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 


_Modified by tdogg74 at 10:47 AM 2-23-2007_


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## the s is silent (Jul 17, 2004)

*Re: Prototype Cams! [With Dyno!] (tdogg74)*

This thread got stupid. The point is...with something as important to an engine as cams, you want to know exactly what you are putting in your engine. Plain and simple. I agree with you tdogg, but I have no plan to put cams in my 2.5 this early, so I'm sitting back watching ya'll bicker like little girls arguing about accessories for your damn barbies. I still have 35k to run out on the warranty, and by then I'll have a few choices, and people will know what this motor does and doesn't like.
In the meantime, can we get along?
This is what tdogg is talking about btw: http://www.cranecams.com/?show...shaft (edit: link didn't work as well as I anticipated...just follow links 2 pages deep)
This is what we expect when buying cams, and it shouldn't be too much to ask for. BUT you also want to see a dyno plot for the cams if at all possible. Because if it came down to a cam that gave me a perfectly flat torque curve and a few peak HP, and a cam that gave me 25 peak hp increase...guess which one I would pick.
Now...lets all just wait patienly for these guys to post results AND specs.










_Modified by the s is silent at 4:19 PM 2-23-2007_


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## dead0narrivel (Aug 7, 2005)

"why cant weeeee be friends.... why cant weeee be friends... why cant we be friends.. why cant WEEEE be friends"


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: Prototype Cams! [With Dyno!] (the s is silent)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the s is silent* »_This thread got stupid. The point is...with something as important to an engine as cams, you want to know exactly what you are putting in your engine. Plain and simple. I agree with you tdogg, but I have no plan to put cams in my 2.5 this early, so I'm sitting back watching ya'll bicker like little girls arguing about accessories for your damn barbies. I still have 35k to run out on the warranty, and by then I'll have a few choices, and people will know what this motor does and doesn't like.
In the meantime, can we get along?
This is what tdogg is talking about btw: http://www.cranecams.com/?show...shaft (edit: link didn't work as well as I anticipated...just follow links 2 pages deep)
This is what we expect when buying cams, and it shouldn't be too much to ask for. BUT you also want to see a dyno plot for the cams if at all possible. Because if it came down to a cam that gave me a perfectly flat torque curve and a few peak HP, and a cam that gave me 25 peak hp increase...guess which one I would pick.
Now...lets all just wait patienly for these guys to post results AND specs.









_Modified by the s is silent at 4:19 PM 2-23-2007_

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Also, here is another example.
http://www.techtonicstuning.com/cams.asp
Everything but lift @ TDC can be figured out by looking at that page. You can pretty much predict what each camshaft will do to your engine by those numbers.


_Modified by tdogg74 at 11:29 AM 2-23-2007_


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## blackflygti (Sep 19, 2001)

*Re: Prototype Cams! [With Dyno!] (the s is silent)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the s is silent* »_This is what we expect when buying cams, and it shouldn't be too much to ask for.

I agree completely and expect to see the specs when they sell the cam. However, they're not done developing anything yet. Let's leave them alone until they finish their research. They don't owe anybody any specs at all on the prototype stuff. They can post some teaser dyno plots if they want...or not...it would be nice but we're not entitled to it.

_Quote, originally posted by *the s is silent* »_Now...lets all just wait patienly for these guys to post results AND specs

Agreed


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: Prototype Cams! [With Dyno!] (blackflygti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackflygti* »_
*However, they're not done developing anything yet. Let's leave them alone until they finish their research.* They don't owe anybody any specs at all on the prototype stuff. They can post some teaser dyno plots if they want...or not...it would be nice but we're not entitled to it.



_Quote, originally posted by *@[email protected]* »_
He is a Vortex advertiser and told me he hopes to have the dyno up today or tomorrow. *The cams are made already they just need to dyno.* They are also the same guys who just dyno'd their CAI and got good gains.
*And I posted this for them* because the last time they posted the dyno they chose a random turbo thread....


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## T62 (Jun 15, 2006)

*Re: Prototype Cams! [With Dyno!] (tdogg74)*

IM confused, they made cams but don't know how to post an image?
Where is the dyno?


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: Prototype Cams! [With Dyno!] (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_
*Playing around with @[email protected]'s words to try and sound like he didn't misread anything*


I said the cams are made already, the prototype cams. I didn't say "Hey the cams are all done and ready to sell as a final product".
Please don't play around with my words to your convenience.
I agree with you, I really do. But I think it's too early for all that now. Let them dyno the prototype and show us some early results to gain some interest. If the feedback is good then I suppose they will try and start producing these for the mass market and until then, we aren't entitled to any info at all. Hell, we they don't even have to show a dyno, but that was the original plan according to him.
Enough with the mix ups! I'm excited about specs and gains and all the sweet things that come with a new mod.
At the end of the day, here we have somebody actually interested in our motor for a change. Let's all drink to that. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: Prototype Cams! [With Dyno!] (T62)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T62* »_IM confused, they made cams but don't know how to post an image?
Where is the dyno?

No, the original idea was to post a dyno sheet showing the gains of the prototype cams they just finished making. But due to the conditions when doing the dynos from stock to cams, the two differed too much when it came to temp and what not so they decided to wait for another try some other time.


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## Giancarlo (Aug 10, 2000)

*Re: Prototype Cams! [With Dyno!] (@[email protected])*

Could they post some of their findings, not the exact specs, but how about if they are seeing higher red line potential or is the motor to weak to go beyond the 5800rpms? I really think this engine can perform a lot better if they can let it rev to 6800-7200? 
Would chip tunning be essential for these cams? meaning they are finding that they would need to tune the ecu to really make cams produce power or any general info they are finding about the engine.
Giving us the preview of them finding 15hp is cool too!!!


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: Prototype Cams! [With Dyno!] (Giancarlo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Giancarlo* »_Could they post some of their findings, not the exact specs, but how about if they are seeing higher red line potential or is the motor to weak to go beyond the 5800rpms? I really think this engine can perform a lot better if they can let it rev to 6800-7200? 

Th real key here to getting this engine to make _more_ power past 6000rpms is how aggressive the tuners can go with valve overlap before it triggers a CEL. Later versions of Motronic dont take too well to a lot of valve overlap. 

_Quote, originally posted by *Giancarlo* »_Would chip tunning be essential for these cams? meaning they are finding that they would need to tune the ecu to really make cams produce power or any general info they are finding about the engine.

With the increased duration, idle speed is generally raised according to whatever duration is used. (to keep the CEL off). But in genereal, chip tuning is essential with a bigger cam profile. Fueling (low load/high load) needs to be adjusted for the increased airflow, as well as ignition maps can be advanced in mid and high rpms.


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## Giancarlo (Aug 10, 2000)

*Re: Prototype Cams! [With Dyno!] (tdogg74)*

So if we are looking at getting cams, then there is no point in getting a chip now right? (as if there where any availible, but for arguments sake).
to really get this engine to rev at least to 6500rpm, which sounds reasonable and for the extra revs to actually make some power then it would be a chip+cams deal right?


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

I really shouldnt comment on if anyone should chip yet or not. But, in my opinion and experiance, only really mild cams dont need a chip upgrade to work well. Anything in the 260* and up would totally benefeit from a chip programmed to work with the camshafts. This is one of the reasons why I posted in inquiry on what the durations being considered were.
Im wondering now who these guys are dealing with for chip tuning. GIAC, Techtonics, or maybe C2 (Jeff Atwood)?
And for the record, this engine has a 16v head which will flow very well with a decent set of cams. I can see 15whp EASY with a set of fast-road cams (260*-264*) and proper chip tuning.


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_I really shouldnt comment on if anyone should chip yet or not. But, in my opinion and experiance, only really mild cams dont need a chip upgrade to work well. Anything in the 260* and up would totally benefeit from a chip programmed to work with the camshafts. This is one of the reasons why I posted in inquiry on what the durations being considered were.
Im wondering now who these guys are dealing with for chip tuning. GIAC, Techtonics, or maybe C2 (Jeff Atwood)?
And for the record, this engine has a 16v head which will flow very well with a decent set of cams. I can see 15whp EASY with a set of fast-road cams (260*-264*) and proper chip tuning. 

Remember Autotech's 17whp gain on the MKII 16v with their cams? This is very doable here as I agree the 16v head is great for cams. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## rare (Apr 7, 2005)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_And for the record, this engine has a 16v head

What record is that? Last I checked it was 20V. 5 cylinder x 4 valves/cyl = 20 valves.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

DOH! youre right....i was thinking of the old 4cyl 16v heads when i typed that.


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

The more valves the better, I should know...I had an 8v


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## dead0narrivel (Aug 7, 2005)

*Re: (@[email protected])*

not tryin to start this argument again but did they get another run at the dyno or get you a copy of the dyno? just curious about updates...not demanding anything


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (dead0narrivel)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dead0narrivel* »_not tryin to start this argument again but did they get another run at the dyno or get you a copy of the dyno? just curious about updates...not demanding anything

I emailed buddy at LNT about the dyno... No response yet.
I hope this doesn't turn into 99% of all other promising mods... Hot Air!


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## tsalani @ lnt (Sep 21, 2005)

*Re: (@[email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *@[email protected]* »_
I emailed buddy at LNT about the dyno... No response yet.


Who is Buddy?









Here is a preliminary dyno. Conditions were again not ideal. And we are still testing without software and without our intake. Which by the way should be out within 8 weeks. Pics of that to come soon! As far as cam specs go. We will of course release the information at production time.


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (tsalani @ lnt)*

Hmm, I guess this aint really what the final product will produce as you've said the conditons aren't right for a dyno...
Not too bad... Torque is bumped up, Hp flinched, hope you guys get better results when everything is at the ideal scenario to dyno. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
PS: I emailed LNT about results a while back...I didn't know who it was, so I called him buddy.


_Modified by @[email protected] at 4:24 AM 2-28-2007_


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## tsalani @ lnt (Sep 21, 2005)

*Re: (@[email protected])*

Remember these numbers are on stock intake and stock software. We now have a good baseline and as stated before we have a few more profiles to test. These are preliminary numbers and we are a long way from production. After this phase there is still reliability and durability testing to be done.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Look how choppy the tq curve is. What octane gas was used for this run? Ignition looks like its pulling timing bigtime. Proper tuning is going to help in a BIG way and I can see gains being a *lot* higher with a properly tuned chip and intake.


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## Giancarlo (Aug 10, 2000)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

This looks promising, with intake and a chip maybe we can get 200crank hp out of the 2.5 after all.
I would be happy with 200hp.


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## chewy'sjetta (Feb 1, 2004)

is this going to redline? Next time post a graph in rpms not mph.
If its a pull to redline looks like it still has a big drop off in the 5000-5200rpm range.
Not the greatest results, but i'll wait and see what the final product does.







holy crap! Smoothing 5? go to smoothing zero. With my rabbit on the dyno it was smooth like a electric motor on smoothing set for 0.


_Modified by chewy'sjetta at 11:40 AM 2-28-2007_


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## Giancarlo (Aug 10, 2000)

*Re: (chewy'sjetta)*

Any news on this? I would love to know what has happened.


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## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (Giancarlo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Giancarlo* »_Any news on this? I would love to know what has happened.

x2


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (Giancarlo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Giancarlo* »_Any news on this? I would love to know what has happened.

IM him, he's a great guy and very helpful http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Giancarlo (Aug 10, 2000)

*Re: (@[email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *@[email protected]* »_
IM him, he's a great guy and very helpful http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









I don't doubt that, but I thought it would be easier to post it here for everyone to see than to answer 100 IM about the same thing. so unless they can't post it publicly I rather have the info for everyone to see.
Are they working on chip tuning too? have they found that the engine could rev more?



_Modified by Giancarlo at 1:29 PM 3-23-2007_


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (Giancarlo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Giancarlo* »_

Are they working on chip tuning too? have they found that the engine could rev more?


I believe the tuner said earlier that on one dyno run they had another 500-800 rpm of headroom. Also that they were definitely looking at a matching chip.
I say thumbs up to the people working on this, and patience to some of the people watching this thread


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## Giancarlo (Aug 10, 2000)

*Re: (Mr Black)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr Black* »_
I believe the tuner said earlier that on one dyno run they had another 500-800 rpm of headroom. Also that they were definitely looking at a matching chip.
I say thumbs up to the people working on this, and patience to some of the people watching this thread









I second the thumbs up and really try to be patient, it is hard though, I love my car but it does need a little more HP and higher red line.


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (Giancarlo)*

Anyone else not really give a **** about the redline? I don't. I agree, some more power would be nice but high redline doesn't mean high power. This is a torque motor first, the moment you start raising that redline is the moment you lose some of that yummy torque and the longevity of the motor is sacrificed.
5800 is good enough for me, then again my MKII only redlined at 6200 and I never took it past 5400 because it was weaksauce beyond that,


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## flynavyj (Jan 26, 2007)

i'm w/ GTI on the redline. It'd be easier to increase power and torque in the current redline and not have as much strain on the engine trying to turn 7,000 rpm...Has anyone thought why volks doesn't have a 6,000-8,000 rpm redline besides "it doesn't make power up there?" Doubt the valvetrain is really ready for those RPMs without modification...might see springs going (KA-POO-IE!)


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## zukiphile (Oct 28, 2000)

*Re: (flynavyj)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flynavyj* »_i'm w/ GTI on the redline. It'd be easier to increase power and torque in the current redline and not have as much strain on the engine trying to turn 7,000 rpm...Has anyone thought why volks doesn't have a 6,000-8,000 rpm redline besides "it doesn't make power up there?" Doubt the valvetrain is really ready for those RPMs without modification...might see springs going (KA-POO-IE!)

I don't really care, but if you want a an engine with a more usable power band, i.e. one less diesel like, then you will move the torque toward higher engine speeds. If you are giving the torque a shove upwards, a 5,800rpm redline is pretty ridiculous.
I don;t think the 2.5 has a 5,800rpm redline because the engine will explode beyond 6,000rpm. I think letting people spin it to 7,000rpm would have buyers complaining even more bitterly about the lack of high end torque.


----------



## Giancarlo (Aug 10, 2000)

*Re: (zukiphile)*

Hey if the engine can only rev to 5800 then fine, let that be, but I really think this engine CAN make more power up there, it has a multi valve head that should flow decent enough. And yes I would like a 6500 redline or 6800, it would make a longer power band and also increase top speed, as it is now 130mph comes at 5100 rpms or such.
If there is no HP to be found up there, or you would have to change all the internals, then fine, but what if the engine CAN rev more and VW lowered the redline as part of their detuning.
I want to know the potential of this engine in all the rpm range and not just what VW allowed.


----------



## tsalani @ lnt (Sep 21, 2005)

*Re: (Giancarlo)*

Had some issues with the rpm pick up on the dyno today. Here is a horsepower dyno. Mild cams, 91 octane, no ecu tuning. 5hp peak gain as well as holding a lot more power up top.


----------



## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

Not too bad LNT








Keep at her, eventually you'll figure out the sweet spot. Eventhough peak HP is improved by a frog's hair, holding hp up high is important, especially for us 2.5 guys who always complain it's kinda sluggish up top.


----------



## tewkewl74 (Apr 24, 2006)

*Re: (tsalani @ lnt)*

Hey LNT guys,
I'm in a rental MKV while my real one is in the shop. if you wanna see how some ecu mods work, you can use my car as a test car. I'm available weeknights and on the weekend. private chat me, i live in san bruno. the only thing i ask in return is that once you figure something out, you flash my real car when I get it back. i'll have this rental for a month. 
and of course, if you can, flash my car back to stock before i take it in to a dealer.


----------



## chewy'sjetta (Feb 1, 2004)

GIVE ME RPM!!!! i could care less about speed
i'm guessing 5800rpm at 80ish making barely no power. lets get springs and more cam. 276?


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (tsalani @ lnt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tsalani @ lnt* »_*Mild cams*, 91 octane, no ecu tuning. 

Hate to sound like a broken record, buuuuut......
What duration/lift cams did you use? And hurry up and get a proper ECU tuning....you will be able to get back the low end you lost with more fueling and more ignition advance.


----------



## Giancarlo (Aug 10, 2000)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

For those that have more experience, how big a change can ECU tunning do to the HP curve?


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Adding in more ignition advance and the appropriate/proper fueling under WOT can significantly add a lot more power.


----------



## Giancarlo (Aug 10, 2000)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

Hypotetically how much? 10hp? would a chip AND cams give us 20-30hp? Didn't Unitronic say they where getting close to 15 or 20 with just the chip?
Can we expect 200whp from this engine? crank?


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

With this engine, I've no clue. If I was to speculate, I would guess another 10 is entirely possible. It just depends how aggressive they will make the chip. But keep this in mind, mass market, cookie-cutter chips are not going to be super aggressive. For that, you would have to get a custom tune. 
Take this as an example...
For my 2.0 ABA, the average hp gain is about 6-8whp from any of the leading chip tuners. (Of course, the more you do to the engine, the chip can be reflashed/updated to better take advantage of your mods.) Now, a custom tune, thats a different story all together. I was talking with the guy that does the tuning for C2, and he told me how he was able to tweak a bone stock, 97whp ABA 2.0 to 123whp with _just_ advancing ignition and fine tuning the A/F throughout the entire rpm.


----------



## Giancarlo (Aug 10, 2000)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

WOW, 25 hp from just chip tunning that is great. 
What I see in this engine is a multi valve setup with large (ok, not that large but large enough to make more than 150hp), a very low redline and last minute changes to lower the hp by 20hp.
Will cams a chip and a CAI give us close to 200whp?
I really think this engine has a lot of power bottled up, but did VW do something with the ECU that is making it impossible to tune?
Considering that the CAI is dyoning at 168whp, a chip and cams could get us the extra 32hp?


----------



## whatsyourbeef (Jan 2, 2007)

*Re: (Giancarlo)*

A well designed exhaust header could get you another 15-18hp and maybe 20 ft-lbs. so, this engine can reach 200hp NA without a lot of trouble. Now down the road add hi-compression pistons, some head work with larger valves and maybe you get another 20 - 25hp. Of course this is all very expensive, I was looking at a set of pistons of similar size for the 2.5 they were $300+ each!! it is going to be a while before all this come to pass...


----------



## Giancarlo (Aug 10, 2000)

*Re: (whatsyourbeef)*

I would be happy with 200whp, especially if I don't have to get into expensive things like pistons and such.
More bolt on things, maybe something bolt on like a turbo later!!!!


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

15-18hp for a header? You're dreaming. I can see with a proper port & polish another 10-15hp. 
All in all, if one was to spend the money and do this properly, I can see 200whp. (as long as you can rev passed 7000rpm. 
Hell, I got 40whp out of my engine with the proper mods and tuning.


----------



## jetbug (Aug 30, 2006)

i dont want to sound like a noob, but there wont be a way for the dealer to know about the mod. right?
and how are these going to affect throttle response?


----------



## thumper07 (Aug 27, 2006)

*Re: (jetbug)*

no i dont think you can hide cams from your dealer unless they are really smooth and they dont drive you car real hard.


----------



## M3NTAL Kev (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: (tsalani @ lnt)*

?
_Quote, originally posted by *tsalani @ lnt* »_
Who is Buddy?









Here is a preliminary dyno. Conditions were again not ideal. And we are still testing without software and without our intake. Which by the way should be out within 8 weeks. Pics of that to come soon! As far as cam specs go. We will of course release the information at production time.

Just curious if you're intentionally posting graphs with a mph x-axis rather than rpm?
BTW, keep up the great work.


_Modified by M3NTAL Kev at 6:33 PM 4-1-2007_


----------



## chewy'sjetta (Feb 1, 2004)

*Re: (jetbug)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jetbug* »_i dont want to sound like a noob, but there wont be a way for the dealer to know about the mod. right?
and how are these going to affect throttle response?

Most techs won't notice a mild cam.


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

What you all might not understand is that a lot of idle lope, attributed by longer durations (valve overlap), can be smoothed out by raising the idle to an appropriate rpm. This is general practice within the industry. So a mild duration (say in the 256-264* range) can be made to idle almost factory smooth by raising the idle 100-150rpms. This also keeps your check engine light from tripping as well.


----------



## Giancarlo (Aug 10, 2000)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

I wouldn't mind a 150rpm increase in iddle for a 1000 rps addition to red line and more hp!!!!!!!!!!!!
Keep up the good work and keep us updated!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

*Re: (Giancarlo)*

Giancarlo, i'm with you...i'm pretty sure 200hp is doable with bolt ons. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## thumper07 (Aug 27, 2006)

*Re: (@[email protected])*

any updates yet?? i am really interested if it can get me near the 200whp mark. 
-matt


----------



## LightningBunny (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: (thumper07)*

im thinking 215 with bolt-ons


----------



## T62 (Jun 15, 2006)

*Re: (LightningBunny)*

Its looking like either the Intake manifold, or the Head itself is a major culprit.
Even with Mild cams, there should be a significant shift in the power band. However if the intake Mach numbers ( Intake velocity) is at its peak ~ .49 mach, then cams may not help very much...


----------



## chewy'sjetta (Feb 1, 2004)

Bump. any head pictures would be nice. intake ports cams ect.


----------



## Giancarlo (Aug 10, 2000)

*Re: (chewy'sjetta)*

Any updates on this?


----------



## Mass Nerder (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: (Giancarlo)*

HAHA.

Fargin' pathetic.


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

sweet, another LNT dyno done in the wrong gear!


----------



## 2point5 (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_sweet, another LNT dyno done in the wrong gear!

Haha this is great....dont these people know how to post a correct dyno....Im sure they didnt expect anyone to see that.....hahaha....YOU MUST DYNO THE CAR IN THE GEAR CLOSEST TO A 1:1 RATIO....Ive also heard that if you dont tie the car down to the dyno very tight, it will show you have more HP...they were probably afraid it would fly off the dyno at 111mph with their loose straps...hahaha....


----------



## blackhawk 76 (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: (2point5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2point5* »_
Haha this is great....dont these people know how to post a correct dyno....Im sure they didnt expect anyone to see that.....hahaha....YOU MUST DYNO THE CAR IN THE GEAR CLOSEST TO A 1:1 RATIO....Ive also heard that if you dont tie the car down to the dyno very tight, it will show you have more HP...they were probably afraid it would fly off the dyno at 111mph with their loose straps...hahaha....









Well they probably have a legitimate reason to why they are running in third gear. No disrespect to you but what right do you have to bash on a company, one of the very few, that are actually putting R&D into the 2.5l? They have been nothing but good to us so far and have been keeping us updated with what has been up with all their projects. So, not trying to rant or anything, but I feel that you have no right to bash and ridicule them at all, even though your entitled to your own opinion and I'm all for that, but don't bash them just to up your post cost to a whopping 21 posts.


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (blackhawk 76)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackhawk 76* »_
Well they probably have a legitimate reason to why they are running in third gear. No disrespect to you but what right do you have to bash on a company, one of the very few, that are actually putting R&D into the 2.5l? They have been nothing but good to us so far and have been keeping us updated with what has been up with all their projects. So, not trying to rant or anything, but I feel that you have no right to bash and ridicule them at all, even though your entitled to your own opinion and I'm all for that, but don't bash them just to up your post cost to a whopping 21 posts.

lol. With that logic I just completely understood the mkiv forums.
You're right. It's only money and your car and a product that will require both. Buyer beware is apparently meaningless to you guys.








I can't possibly imagine a reason a company selling a product would dyno in the wrong gear. I encourage you to think of one and get back to us.
Or they could just chime in themselves and let everyone know.


----------



## blackhawk 76 (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: (magilson)*

Yea, I also see what you are talking about and have no idea what the reason is and/or why they pull in third. yea yea yea caveat emptor...


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (blackhawk 76)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackhawk 76* »_Yea, I also see what you are talking about and have no idea what the reason is and/or why they pull in third. yea yea yea caveat emptor...

I'm sure they make good gains, in fact I'm positive after the developments I've seen. But when you're paying hundreds of dollars, at least have the backbone to question what you're looking at. I realize they are one of few tuners addressing this young market, but you can't just sit back. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (magilson)*

i like grasshoppers http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## blackhawk 76 (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: (mujjuman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mujjuman* »_i like grasshoppers http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

well I myself are fond of Praying matids


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

*Re: (blackhawk 76)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackhawk 76* »_
well I myself are fond of Praying matids

Praying what? Mantis?
This thread is a waste of bandwidth. Almost 5 pages, and STILL not ounce of info on the camshafts. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## blackhawk 76 (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: (tdogg74)*

yea the plural for praying mantis is mantids.... google it... i couldn't figure out what it is mantices, mantises, but its mantids


----------



## 2point5 (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: (tdogg74)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdogg74* »_
This thread is a waste of bandwidth. Almost 5 pages, and STILL not ounce of info on the camshafts. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 


Im sure there's nothing special about their camshafts....they probably just gorund the backside of the Intake lobes on a stock cam....lets the engine use all of its compresion to make more power....used to do that on the old Biggs n starton engines....it works ok...makeing a whole new set of cams is WAY expensive....


----------



## ninety9gl (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: Prototype Cams! (@[email protected])*

Here's a curious question... how much more involved would this cam install be considering that the 2.5L has a timing chain and not a belt? It shouldn't be too much different, but some other chain-driven cars (non-VW engines) are harder to get to.
And it's DOHC, which always makes timing a little more annoying.


_Modified by ninety9gl at 11:08 PM 5-5-2007_


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: Prototype Cams! (ninety9gl)*

The _really_ big question I have is that if the 2.5 is anything like the new 2.0T FSI motor, the cams are held in by a single cam cap which is essentially the top bearing surface for each cam bearing as well as a fairly important seal for the valve cover gasket, so is the 2.5 the same? Not exactly fun to work with.


----------



## ninety9gl (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: Prototype Cams! (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_The _really_ big question I have is that if the 2.5 is anything like the new 2.0T FSI motor, the cams are held in by a single cam cap which is essentially the top bearing surface for each cam bearing as well as a fairly important seal for the valve cover gasket, so is the 2.5 the same? Not exactly fun to work with.

That would be very true... I didn't even think about the fact that it's a twin-cam, though... that would definitely explain more R&D time... not only do you have to figure out what's best for the intake, but what's best for the exhaust... then the best way for them to work together.
So they've got working prototypes... that's a good step. You'll still probably be waiting a year before they're in production, though.
The proto's may be re-grinds, but it wouldn't make sense as a production part to basically buy OEM cams and grind them all down as opposed to actually manufacture them at the size you want.
Hopefully the chain is easy to get to... but being a DOHC and, from what you're saying about the GTI cam cap, potentially being annoying to even remove the caps... could be a very tedious install, not to mention maintaining proper timing between the cams.
If I'm not mistaken, didn't the 2.0L 16v DOHC actually have a chain connecting the two cams to make timing them easier?


----------



## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: Prototype Cams! (ninety9gl)*

honestly, i wish my 2.5 had VTEC... it would really help after 5k rpm


----------



## ninety9gl (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: Prototype Cams! (mujjuman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mujjuman* »_honestly, i wish my 2.5 had VTEC... it would really help after 5k rpm

VTEC is just Honda's name for variable valve timing... honestly, I'm surprised it's not used... Even the Dodge Caliber has vvt... (the same dual continuously variable valve timing from the Diamler-Benz E-class).
Cams should help, though. Move the power band up the rpm range.


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: Prototype Cams! (ninety9gl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ninety9gl* »_If I'm not mistaken, didn't the 2.0L 16v DOHC actually have a chain connecting the two cams to make timing them easier?

yep


----------



## pslawinski (Dec 28, 2006)

*Re: Prototype Cams! (ninety9gl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ninety9gl* »_
VTEC is just Honda's name for variable valve timing... honestly, I'm surprised it's not used... Even the Dodge Caliber has vvt... (the same dual continuously variable valve timing from the Diamler-Benz E-class).
Cams should help, though. Move the power band up the rpm range.

I'm not a Honda expert, or a car expert by any means but I know this. VTEC is much more than just variable valve timing. In some motors the camshafts move to different lobes at certain RPM ranges. Also the K series motors have fancy intake manifolds with variable length intake runners.
More information about VTEC is availible.


_Modified by pslawinski at 10:27 PM 5-6-2007_


----------



## sharons03jetta (Jul 6, 2005)

*Re: Prototype Cams! (pslawinski)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pslawinski* »_
I'm not a Honda expert, or a car expert by any means but I know this. VTEC is much more than just variable valve timing. In some motors the camshafts move to different lobes at certain RPM ranges. Also the K series motors have fancy intake manifolds with variable length intake runners.

yeah the old GSR integras did that with the intake runners....dont the OBD2 VR6 intake manifolds do that...?


----------



## ninety9gl (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: Prototype Cams! (pslawinski)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pslawinski* »_
I'm not a Honda expert, or a car expert by any means but I know this. VTEC is much more than just variable valve timing. In some motors the camshafts move to different lobes at certain RPM ranges. Also the K series motors have fancy intake manifolds with variable length intake runners.

Um, yeah... it changes between camshaft profiles or advances/retards the timing... thus changing the operation of the valves. That's what variable valve timing is. No matter how the car does it or what the manufacturer calls it, the end result is a variation of the valve timing.
Wikipedia - VVT copyright names
The Dodge/Mercedes name isn't on there... I think it's CVVTi or something like that.
I don't believe the shifting in intake runners is considered part of the VTEC system... though, regardless, the VR6 (at least the 24v) switches between shorter and longer (actually, vice versa) too.



_Modified by ninety9gl at 11:36 PM 5-6-2007_


----------



## pslawinski (Dec 28, 2006)

*Re: Prototype Cams! (ninety9gl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ninety9gl* »_
Uhh... That IS variable valve timing. It shifts between two camshaft profiles, but that's how it varies the timing... No matter what method the manufacturer uses, the end result is changing the valve timing - thus making it variable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...names
I don't believe the shifting in intake runners is considered part of the VTEC system... though, regardless, the VR6 (at least the 24v) switches between shorter and longer (actually, vice versa) too.

_Modified by ninety9gl at 11:28 PM 5-6-2007_

My understanding is that VVT is where the camshaft angle changes. VTEC actually moves to different cams at certian RPM ranges.


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: Prototype Cams! (pslawinski)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pslawinski* »_
My understanding is that VVT is where the camshaft angle changes. VTEC actually moves to different cams at certian RPM ranges.

no.


----------



## ninety9gl (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: Prototype Cams! (pslawinski)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pslawinski* »_
My understanding is that VVT is where the camshaft angle changes. VTEC actually moves to different cams at certian RPM ranges.

It's just a different means to the same end - the different cam profiles (I don't know if they're wholly seperate cams or just another set of lobes on the same cam) are used to achieve different valve timing.
A lot of manufacturers use different ways to do it... Probably because some of the methods are copyrighted.
I think, technically, Honda says the lift changes aren't "variable valve timing"... they're kind of right on that, I guess. It's not really a timing change, but it's still used on other types of VVT.


_Modified by ninety9gl at 11:40 PM 5-6-2007_


----------



## pslawinski (Dec 28, 2006)

*Re: Prototype Cams! (ninety9gl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ninety9gl* »_
It's just a different means to the same end - the different cam profiles (I don't know if they're wholly seperate cams or just another set of lobes on the same cam) are used to achieve different valve timing.
A lot of manufacturers use different ways to do it... Probably because some of the methods are copyrighted.

VTEC is in addition to VVT. The angle changes in addition to the different cam profiles on iVTEC engines. Read the site I recommended above.


_Modified by pslawinski at 10:45 PM 5-6-2007_


----------



## ninety9gl (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: Prototype Cams! (pslawinski)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pslawinski* »_
VTEC is in addition to VVT. The angle changes in addition to the different cam profiles on iVTEC engines. Read the site I recommended above.


Once again, this is how most VVT systems operate - at least to the same end result. Read about some other systems and compare them. Slightly different methods and approaches, same general concept and effect, same end result.
VVT affects the actual timing, lift and duration - which is what VTEC does. Regardless of how it goes about it, that's what it does and that's what VVT is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_valve_timing 
There's a link at the bottom there that talks about variable length intake manifolds, too, if you're interested in seeing some applications.


_Modified by ninety9gl at 11:49 PM 5-6-2007_


----------



## 2point5 (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: Prototype Cams! (ninety9gl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ninety9gl* »_
Once again, this is how most VVT systems operate - at least to the same end result. Read about some other systems and compare them. Slightly different methods and approaches, same general concept and effect, same end result.
VVT affects the actual timing, lift and duration - which is what VTEC does. Regardless of how it goes about it, that's what it does and that's what VVT is.

[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_valve_timing[/url] 

_Modified by ninety9gl at 11:48 PM 5-6-2007_

And all this has what to do with the 2.5.....since we dont have it...


----------



## sharons03jetta (Jul 6, 2005)

*Re: Prototype Cams! (ninety9gl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ninety9gl* »_
Actually... According to spec sheets (and Wiki), the BGP does have variable timing on the intake cam. They probably don't have the other code listed (I forget it) but it shouldn't be different.
List of Volkswagen engines (aimed at the 2.5 href)

_Modified by ninety9gl at 11:53 PM 5-6-2007_

yeah according to that we have a cast aluminum intake manifold.....not sure were they got that...


----------



## ninety9gl (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: Prototype Cams! (sharons03jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *whatsyourbeef* »_The bently manual says the '07 rabbit has a 10:1 compression ratio
Engine code BGP BGQ
Manufactured 01.06 01.06
Displacement, cm³ 2480 2480
Output, kW at 1/rpm 110/5000 110/5000
Torque, Nm at rpm 228/3750 228/3750
Bore, dia. mm 82.5 82.5
Stroke mm 92.8 92.8
Compression ratio 10.0 10.0
Valves per cylinder 4 4
RON, min. 91 91
Fuel, ignition, Motronic ME 7.1.1 ME 7.1.1
Knock control 2 sensors 2 sensors
*Variable valve timing yes yes*
Oxygen sensor regulation 2 sensors 3 sensors
Catalytic converter yes yes
Exhaust gas recirc no no
Secondary Air Injection (AIR) system yes yes
2006 / 2007 rabbit specs



_Modified by ninety9gl at 1:31 AM 5-8-2007_


----------



## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: Prototype Cams! (ninety9gl)*

the only difference between the two 5cyl engines is thefact that 1 has 3 O2 sensors and the other has 2 O2 sensors right?
but do our engines have VVT or not... i dont think so, or atleast i dont think its aggressive at all for higher rpm band


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

the mkv gti has VVT on the exhuast cam and if I remember right it really only has to do with emmissions.


----------



## Geo (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: (ninety9gl)*

how does only one cam have VVT when they are connected with a chain?


----------



## ninety9gl (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: (Geo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Geo* »_how does only one cam have VVT when they are connected with a chain?

Are they?
I know the 2.0L/1.8L 16v is set up like that, but those are MKII motors.
Regardless, VVT motors still have a belt or chain connecting the timing components... Even if one cam is on the timing set and the other is connected to that cam, they're both still, in one way or another, connected.
Now it's down to confirming the VVT info out there and then seeing if the cams are connected to each other or both on the timing set.
The mk4 2.0L that had VVT had a different kind of cam gear. I'd imagine that would be the way to implement it.
Looking into it...


_Modified by ninety9gl at 1:53 AM 5-8-2007_


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (ninety9gl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ninety9gl* »_
Are they?
I know the 2.0L/1.8L 16v is set up like that, but those are MKII motors.
I don't know about the 2.0T 20v or the 2.5L 16v... I'm gonna venture to say that I wouldn't guess they would be, considering that we KNOW the 2.0T has VVT on the exhaust side and it LOOKS LIKE the 2.5 is supposed to have it on the intake side.

Eh, he could be right, it may affect both. To be quite honest this is my first vehicle with adjustable valve timing.


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (ninety9gl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ninety9gl* »_having the 3 exhaust valves adjust to that intake would probably help emissions/efficiency, though.

dude. You really need to spend some time reading in the 2.0T FSI forums. it's a 16v. two intake, two exhaust per cylinder. Besides, the third valve didn't do for the 1.8 nearly what replacing it with a direct injector does for the 2.0T FSI... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (ninety9gl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ninety9gl* »_Do you have any idea what's involved it making a head work with direct injection as opposed to standard fuel injection?

I can only say what it takes based on what I know of what VW has done and the little I have read about what BMW and GM have done.
Essentially you are talking injectors in the diesel style range. Capable of well over 100 bar (yes, nearly 2,000 PSI). At this point that means a mechanical fuel pump, in VW's case driven off of the intake cam. In the ideal world of engineering a DI system you can then inject the fuel just before you plan to ignite it, so say 300+ degrees (of rotation, with 360 being TDC of the compression stroke). VW chose to use a 10.5:1 compression ratio to help with low end power, GM chose 9.5:1 to allow for more timing to do the work. On this kind of motor timing is critical. You obviously can't ignite the fuel before you inject it, so ignition timing can only get so close to the time of injection. Essentially though the major difference is the injectors and the need for a high and low fuel pressure system. However I am way off topic for a 2.5l inline 5 forum.


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (ninety9gl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ninety9gl* »_It doesn't matter how many valves are there in this case anyway.

It does when you have an injector in it's place


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (ninety9gl)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ninety9gl* »_
1. That doesn't even make any sense.
2. What does this have to do with cams or, apparently, whether or not the 2.5 has VVT?

_Modified by ninety9gl at 12:39 AM 5-8-2007_

don't get mad cuz you're wrong. I didn't take this off topic, I just provided some actual facts. I'm not sure what you'd call the info you've been sharing... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

lol


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## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (magilson)*

you know that crazy sound we hear after 3500rpm? its like a whistling sound..... is that the VVT or something?


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## CeD18 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: (mujjuman)*

No, it's your transmission.


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## ninety9gl (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: Prototype Cams! (ninety9gl)*

*As per VW, yes on intake-end variable valve timing on the 2.5.*
No info on if one cam is just connected to the other or if they're both on the timing chain...


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## mujjuman (Jul 29, 2004)

*Re: (CeD18)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CeD18* »_No, it's your transmission.

oh ok... ive heard that before. i have the Automatic... does the manual do this?


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## Giancarlo (Aug 10, 2000)

*Re: (mujjuman)*

Any updates on this?


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## jetta2pointfive (Sep 28, 2006)

*Re: (Giancarlo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Giancarlo* »_Any updates on this?

x2 
and does anyone how know much cams would go for? maybe its been said already but i dont feel like reading 5 pages to find out


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## @[email protected] (Aug 29, 2003)

VR cams are like $600.... So maybe $499?


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## ninety9gl (Nov 27, 2005)

*Re: (jetta2pointfive)*

You have to take consideration the VVT and how the 2 cams work with each other... And then tuning the ECU accordingly. That, and this is a whole new motor as opposed to, say, a 4-cyl 8v with hydraulic lifters.
I wouldn't expect production cams for probably a year. I could be wrong, though.


_Modified by ninety9gl at 5:55 PM 5-28-2007_


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## Giancarlo (Aug 10, 2000)

*Re: (ninety9gl)*

The thing is they already had prototypes and such, so maybe an update on how everything is working out, with different profiles, are they working on ECU yet or still testing degrees, etc...?
We are not saying they should be ready by now, great if they are, but I think we mostly want to be kept up to day on how things are working out.
I know I am seriously considering this as an option to not go FI.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (Giancarlo)*

so....one year later and...no cams?


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## husm (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: (twopointone)*

damn, has it really been one year. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif for no cam update but http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif if you can release the turbo kit soon


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## 883sportster (Jun 1, 2007)

*Re: (tsalani @ lnt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tsalani @ lnt* »_
Who is Buddy?









Here is a preliminary dyno. Conditions were again not ideal. And we are still testing without software and without our intake. Which by the way should be out within 8 weeks. Pics of that to come soon! As far as cam specs go. We will of course release the information at production time.

8 weeks








I get my bonus next week and i'm ordering my CAI hope this comes out by then


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (husm)*

dont bet the farm.


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## rangerbrown (Jul 12, 2007)

i really hope no one plans to spend money with this company


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## RabidHare (Aug 25, 2007)

*Re: (rangerbrown)*

What ever happend to all of this stuff cams and intake are they on the market... and do peple still think that the rabbit is capable of 200whp with bolt ons


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## turbomonkeyexpress (Nov 26, 2004)

the new 08's were tweaked a bit and get 170hp. I see the 200 mark possible with the right goodies. Intake, a headder, and maybe an exhaust with some cams and chiptuning?


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## fierostetz (Nov 19, 2007)

Posting a misleading thread makes the OP a ****head.


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## rental_metard (Jul 17, 2006)

thats alright the OP doesn't come around these parts anymore


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## studio19sound (Dec 14, 2006)

*Re: (rental_metard)*

whatevr DID happen to @[email protected] ?
he's been gone for like 4 months.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: (turbomonkeyexpress)*


_Quote, originally posted by *turbomonkeyexpress* »_the new 08's were tweaked a bit and get 170hp. I see the 200 mark possible with the right goodies. Intake, a headder, and maybe an exhaust with some cams and chiptuning?

not w/out headwork.


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## vr_vento95 (Nov 26, 2004)

*Re: (twopointone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *twopointone* »_
not w/out headwork.

easy without headwork, BOOST!!!


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## sl33pyb (Jan 15, 2007)

*Re: (vr_vento95)*

we need cams made for a 6700 rpm redline!!!!!!!!!!! better mpg on the free way(if you cruise at 90) and it will sound mean. plz make cams for a chipped redline


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## elf911 (Jul 27, 2007)

anything else about cams coming into production for the 2.5L?
Elf


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