# Kinetic Stage 1 - Noobie Question



## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

I have been looking all over the forums and google to figure out all of this before I post anything, but I am not too sure on this.

Car is a OBDII VR6 12v mk3.

The kit comes with a 3 inch downpipe, does the factory cat or a 2.5 test pipe mate up to this? If not, what should I use? I have a cat-back Autotech 2.5 exhaust. I believe it is reduced some to fit the factory cat and clamp.

All help is appreciated :thumbup:


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## groundupjetta (Feb 1, 2010)

Your best bet would be to eliminate the cat all together and run a straight pipe to your cat-back. If emission is a problem than you can find a high flow 3" catalystic and put it in there instead


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

I have a 42dd test pipe, would that mate up with the 3inch DP? 
I had it on before with the factory DP, so I would assume it doesnt fit if I can interchange the cat and test pipe?


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## MRosier (Sep 17, 2006)

Anything with the standard 3 bolt flange will mate up. So yes, your factory cat or a 42DD test pipe will work


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

Hm, so the three bolts will all line up good, what about the gasket? Factory gasket should mate up, but thats where it will be reduced from 3 inches to 2.5?


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## Afondo (Dec 13, 2008)

The factory gaskets are oversized so you will have no problem. As previously mentioned by others it will all bolt straight up.

BTW, dont get the stage 1 kit, you want at least stage 3


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

Thanks for the help. I am also assuming I will need to delete my SAI pump? If I can leave it that would be better, I am not sure if the intake hose has a fitting for that?


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## Jo|\| (Jul 3, 2011)

Alingarhs said:


> I am also assuming I will need to delete my SAI pump?


The SAI will have no function if you run a test pipe. It's used to heat the cat up faster during cold starts. So if you remove the cat there is nothing to heat up. 

There is no problem leaving it in, but if you remove it you will need a SAI plug and a tune that will support the delete.


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

Yeah, I am pretty sure the pump doesnt work anymore anyways. I am going to take it out eventually. So thats a yes that the kit comes with a port to hook up the SAI?


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## SparkyRich (Jul 4, 2009)

I am running the same setup on my 86 gti vr6t. I got the stage 2 kit which is the same as the one you want minus the IC. I made a cat delete pipe with the second O2 bung on it. Call the place before you order it the guy from C2 tuning will put any tune in there you want. He added the SAI delete (cat delete) so I don't throw a code and then added enough timing so I can run race gas if I want to rev limiter increase too but it has no traction anyways. This was 2 years ago so it might have changed but I seriously doubt it. I did have a problem with my exhaust where the down pipe's 3 bolt flange was clocked off a bit so I had to correct it to fit the rest of my exhaust with the test pipe. Hope this helps.


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## 2NICE4RICE (Jun 29, 2003)

*Dp*

Good question, I always wondered because I want to swap my 2.5" kinetic for 3" kinetic one day..


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

Ok, I got the kit and have started work.

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The adapter for the oil feed will not screw in all the way, same with the sensor in the adapter and oil feel line.
They all go in about half way, is this going to be a problem?


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## 2NICE4RICE (Jun 29, 2003)

*Turbo*

My guess is you don't have the correct threads....I believe the oem sensors are 10mm and my guess is your T adapter is 1/8"NPT 

Also I think the metric threads usually use a copper crush washer and the 1/8" you can use Teflon tape on


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## groundupjetta (Feb 1, 2010)

Yes just use some Teflon tape on the threads and you will be golden


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## 3WheelnGTi (Jan 19, 2008)

groundupjetta said:


> Yes just use some Teflon tape on the threads and you will be golden


 X2 , That's what I did and it worked out just fine.


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## 3WheelnGTi (Jan 19, 2008)

And I saw you were from the Denver Area also.....



groundupjetta said:


> Your best bet would be to eliminate the cat all together and run a straight pipe to your cat-back. If emission is a problem than you can find a high flow 3" catalystic and put it in there instead


If you go catless , I highly recommend you flange the factory cat to be bolted in or out for emissions.
Ive been there done that with Colorado emissions and I barely passed 'Failed 3 times before that' with 
lots of denatured alcohol and a 1lb spring in the wastegate running a 3" high flow cat. :laugh:


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

Cool, I will put some tape on it. :thumbup:

I am worried about emissions, but I still have another year before I need to get that done again.

From what I heard, the factory cat will bolt up to the 3 inch downpipe?
So I should be able to swap that back on and cross my fingers when emissions come.

Another question, I have seen most people tap their WG to the compressor housing, mine doesnt have anything for a boost line
so I was thinking about getting those adapters you can punch through the silicone hose between the turbo and throttle body.
Is there a better way to do this?


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## 3WheelnGTi (Jan 19, 2008)

Alingarhs said:


> From what I heard, the factory cat will bolt up to the 3 inch downpipe?
> So I should be able to swap that back on and cross my fingers when emissions come.


When I rolled mine out of the garage , mine was bolted to the factory cat so I don't see why yours would not be able too.



Alingarhs said:


> Another question, I have seen most people tap their WG to the compressor housing, mine doesn't have anything for a boost line
> so I was thinking about getting those adapters you can punch through the silicone house between the turbo and throttle body.
> Is there a better way to do this?


The turbo I had was a PTE so it had to vac port for the wastegate , the adapters such as

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/221388400595?lpid=82

IMO i would not trust nor do...


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## AlexiGTIVR6 (Jul 21, 2000)

Alingarhs said:


> From what I heard, the factory cat will bolt up to the 3 inch downpipe?


Yup



Alingarhs said:


> I was thinking about getting those adapters you can punch through the silicone hose between the turbo and throttle body.
> Is there a better way to do this?


Deff dont do that. For your WG signal (boost source) you get that from the intake manifold. Use the nipple on the manifold that is right after the throttle body. This is where the stock intake pipe PCV valve gets is Vaccum signal and where the Evap line enters the manifold.

If you have any other install questions feel free to ask. I work at CTS turbo which makes the kit


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

Those are "k" threads in the oil filter housing. The Kinetic adapter is the same pitch as the housing, but does not have "k" threads so it will gall out the housing threads and you'll have leaks. You can try to band-aid what you have with sealant or whatever, but if/when that doesn't work out, you'll need an undamaged housing and a fitting with not only the proper thread pitch, but also "k" sized threads.


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

AlexiGTIVR6 said:


> Yup
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That wont cause boost spikes and incorrect readings?
I thought the WG was suppose to be tapped before the throttle body?

Why would CTS include that adapter in a kit made for this car if its not the right threads?

Another question concerning the pcv hose since you reminded me of it, the kit came with just a hose to go from the valve cover to the intake.
What is done with the part of the pcv that has an electrical connection to it? Do I just delete that? I cant imagine that no codes will be thrown.


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## 3WheelnGTi (Jan 19, 2008)

Alingarhs said:


> That wont cause boost spikes and incorrect readings?
> I thought the WG was suppose to be tapped before the throttle body?


It is best to get the boost source before TB but you can use vac from the mani if there is no other source to get it from.



Alingarhs said:


> \
> 
> Why would CTS include that adapter in a kit made for this car if its not the right threads?


Its been some years , but when I talked with Clay he said that the threads are tapered so Teflon tape wasn't needed but I used it anyway.



Alingarhs said:


> Another question concerning the pcv hose since you reminded me of it, the kit came with just a hose to go from the valve cover to the intake.
> What is done with the part of the pcv that has an electrical connection to it? Do I just delete that? I cant imagine that no codes will be thrown.


You can just delete it , hide the connector and no codes.


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## AlexiGTIVR6 (Jul 21, 2000)

Alingarhs said:


> That wont cause boost spikes and incorrect readings?
> I thought the WG was suppose to be tapped before the throttle body?
> 
> .


If you can use before I usually do but either way will work fine. 



Alingarhs said:


> Why would CTS include that adapter in a kit made for this car if its not the right threads?
> .


The threads are actually the same thread pitch. Yes the housing is metric and the brass fitting is tapered pipe thread but seals fine. You'll break the brass fitting if over tightening before you could ever damage the aluminum housing. Ive installed countless amounts of these with no problems. 



Alingarhs said:


> That wont cause boost spikes and incorrect readings?
> 
> Another question concerning the pcv hose since you reminded me of it, the kit came with just a hose to go from the valve cover to the intake.
> What is done with the part of the pcv that has an electrical connection to it? Do I just delete that? I cant imagine that no codes will be thrown.


As stated you just delete it. You will not get any codes


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

Cool, thanks for all of the help guys!

There was a check valve that was included, should I use this at the WG line since the WG is not suppose to see vacuum?


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## 3WheelnGTi (Jan 19, 2008)

Alingarhs said:


> Cool, thanks for all of the help guys!
> 
> There was a check valve that was included, should I use this at the WG line since the WG is not suppose to see vacuum?


If you going to use it there you'll need another inbetween the evap and mani , the evap system should not the any positive pressure.


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## AlexiGTIVR6 (Jul 21, 2000)

Alingarhs said:


> Cool, thanks for all of the help guys!
> 
> There was a check valve that was included, should I use this at the WG line since the WG is not suppose to see vacuum?


Don't use it on the line going to the WG. The WG can see vacuum. Just one check valve is needed for the line going to the evap purge valve.


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

ok thanks. ive come across another question.
I got the injectors in, but they dont have grooves in them for the clip that secures the injectors to the rail.
Do i need something there or should it be ok without them?


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

AlexiGTIVR6 said:


> If you can use before I usually do but either way will work fine.


Except that you can experience part-throttle over-boost with the signal line placed after the throttle plate.




AlexiGTIVR6 said:


> The threads are actually the same thread pitch. Yes the housing is metric and the brass fitting is tapered pipe thread but seals fine.


The Kinetic/CTS fitting is not properly threaded for the housing, and ends up galling the threads and usually leaking. I know that mine did because of that sh:tty fitting. If you want it done right, you need to match the thread pitch AND the thread thickness. "K" threads are what you want if you want no leaks and an undamaged housing. 



AlexiGTIVR6 said:


> Don't use it on the line going to the WG. The WG can see vacuum. Just one check valve is needed for the line going to the evap purge valve.


It's better for the WG diaphragm if it doesn't see vacuum. I would find another zero-crack valve and put it on the WG signal line.


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

Any tips on getting the manifold bottom nuts on?
It's impossible with a socket, and using an open end wrench will take hours for just 4 bolts. I can barely get 2 full turns in 10 minutes of struggling...


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

Alingarhs said:


> Any tips on getting the manifold bottom nuts on?
> It's impossible with a socket, and using an open end wrench will take hours for just 4 bolts. I can barely get 2 full turns in 10 minutes of struggling...


if the bolts are like my 24v you'll need long ball end hex with 3/8 sockets for torquing

http://www.princessauto.com/pal/Hex...-dr-SAE-Ball-End-Hex-Bit-Socket-Set/8159212.p


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

Can the diverter valve see boost?

( -- = Hose )

purge valve -- check valve -- "T" split -- "T" -- manifold

The 2 "T" splits is for the wastegate and diverter valve.

Would it be better to place the check valve in between the 2 "T" splits so the diverter valve doesn't see positive pressure?
Like so:

purge valve -- "T" split -- check valve -- "T" -- manifold


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## 3WheelnGTi (Jan 19, 2008)

Alingarhs said:


> Can the diverter valve see boost?
> 
> ( -- = Hose )
> 
> ...


Yes , the diverter valve has to see boost/vac to function properly.

Here's mine old vr as a reference pic...


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

Got all the basic's hooked up today and started the car. Runs like ****.
It sounds like it is mis-firing, but no codes.

There is a really bad exhaust leak at the turbo/downpipe because the idiots at CTS dont include one, so I will be fixing that shortly.
I didn't hook a line up to the WG yet because incompetent CTS cant even send me the right "T" split.

I'm pretty sure the injectors and spark plug wires are connected right.

Other than that, I don't know what else to really check, I looked around for unplugged connections or vacuum lines and didn't see any.

Could that exhaust leak cause it to run like that?


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

Ok, solved the bad idle. The MAF was backwards. 
New problem, it's over boosting to at least 16psi, I am almost positive that the 6PSI spring is in the wastegate. 


Sorry, picture is smaller than I thought.

The red mark on the hose goes to the wastegate

The circle is where the checkvalve is.
Does this look right?


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## 3WheelnGTi (Jan 19, 2008)

If any of those tee's has a leak this can "bleed" the boost signal that the wastegate should be seeing ,
which means the wastegate doesn't open as soon/as much as it should which leads to overboosting.


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

Ok. I will try and force those two hoses on more since the "T" is measured on all three nipples at 1/4 inch instead of one of them being 3/8 for the WG. Another stupid flaw the kit comes with...


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

It's still overboosting after I tightened up the boost line. Going to take the WG off and see what spring is in there.


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

Solved the problem, there was a 9 psi spring in there along with a 6psi. Thats why I was doing around 15psi. Took it out and now its running good.

The oil feed at the turbo is leaking a small amount though, even with teflon tape. Any suggestions? I have tightened it down as good as I could.


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## 3WheelnGTi (Jan 19, 2008)

How is it running?


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

Great, been driving it for a week now. 

Only problem I have now is the flex tube they sent me for the WG is too small and pops off constantly. It's almost 3 inches too small.

I looked around the auto stores today for a correct size and cant find any in 1.5 inch diameter flex tube. 
So I have no clue where to find it locally. 

Somehow I doubt driving it with an open WG and a 1 1/2 hole from the down-pipe is good for fuel trims.


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

Open dump won't affect AFRs, the o2 sensor is reading a ratio, not a total volume.

If that flex tube is still long enough to reach and overlap both pipes, here is what I did.

Here is a solution for anyone at odds with leaky Kinetic wastegate flex tubes because of the crappy clamps that are tack welded to the pipe, which is too big to start with anyway. Twisting the pipe down worked a little, but I ripped those clamps off of there and found some
"DX Engineering" stainless steel and aluminum antenna mast clamps. I have one at each end, and just had to cut a little notch in the flex tubing so it would overlap and take up evenly all the way around.










Made in the U.S.A.











Or, I have a 1 1/2" stainless "basket-weave" flex section and stainless tubing and stainless WG flange for sale, if you want to buy it and weld it up. New and unused, I never got around to installing it since my antenna clamp solution worked for me. PM me if you're interested.


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

Thanks for the info, I want to set it up like you have in your pictures, but if I were to put at least and inch onto the down-pipe, the flex tube is about an 1 1/2 or 2 inches short of covering at least an inch on the WG.

It annoys me that all I can find at local auto stores is a 2 inch flex tube or bigger. 


As for the open wastegate, I was figuring that since the O2 sensor is post wastegate dump, I dont have the welded pipe from the down-pipe capped off so there is a horrible exhaust leak there. I figured there would be suction and that would cause a incorrect reading from my O2 sensor because if the extra oxygen entering the exhaust and hitting that O2 sensor.


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

That tube seems to be a constant source of frustration, at least the one that they sent me was long enough, despite the fact that it would not seal until I implemented my own clamps and a couple of small pie cuts. 
I think that vibrant distributes lengths of 1.5" stainless flex tubing if you want to stick with that style.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

Huh? It's not welded?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3WheelnGTi (Jan 19, 2008)

24vGTiVR6 said:


> Huh? It's not welded?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nope


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

Finally found the tube at NAPA. Got it running nice and quiet. 
I think I like the sound of the turbo more, rather than the wastegate.


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

So a problem has starting happening yesterday.

The car would not stay on after the warm to cold weather we just had here. It cranks fine and starts, but once it starts it almost immediately cuts out and dies.
I tried to start it 4-5 times yesterday morning and it wouldn't stay on. Came out 3 hours later and it started right up and ran good .

Same thing this morning, although I got it to start and stay on after the 3rd try. I gave it some gas when I started it and I heard what I think to be a backfire?
It was a loud "pop" and then it ran fine. I could also hear a couple small mis-fires while it was warming up, maybe one every 30 seconds for 2 minutes. Once it is warm it runs and starts fine.

So I am thinking it is either my spark plugs or coilpack.

I didnt smell gas when this was happening.
I sprayed my coil pack with water and didn't see and arching.
I checked to make sure there was a good connections between the wires.

Could the spark plug gap be to blame here?
The kit came with new ones (I forget which) that I gapped at .024 (per Bentley)

I remember hearing turbos run better with a larger gap, but not to informative in that.

Thanks.


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

So this issue went away on its own, but now its back.

So far it has not been so bad I cant get it start, but when it does start cold the idle will fluctuate really bad between 400rpms and 2000.

It only does it on cold starts and after about 30 seconds it will idle fine. I checked for vacuum leaks and there are no codes being thrown.
Car runs really good when I drive it so I have no clue what this could be.
What should I check?


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## 8vbunny (Oct 2, 2002)

Alingarhs said:


> So this issue went away on its own, but now its back.
> 
> So far it has not been so bad I cant get it start, but when it does start cold the idle will fluctuate really bad between 400rpms and 2000.
> 
> ...


Manifold gasket, between the upper and the lower, tb gasket if you pulled the tb off for whatever reason. Also make sure the injectors are in there nice and tight and that the o-rings and not split.


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## 3WheelnGTi (Jan 19, 2008)

Did you solve the issue?


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## Alingarhs (Dec 2, 2010)

I tried a different gap on the plugs from .024 to .030 and it does run smoother on startups.

Although when I drive the car for a bit and go to restart it not much later it has a weak start to it, I think its just hot and causing some fuel to evaporate.


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