# Sticky  FAQ - Carbs



## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

_Quote, originally posted by *GTaye* »_Ever wonder?








(Stolen from Sport-Touring.net):
Basics of Motorcycle Carburetor Operation 
The basic secret of carb function is that inside each carb are thousands of tiny gnomes; each with a small bucket. As you open the 
throttle, more of these gnomes are allowed out of their house and into the float bowl, where they fill the buckets and climb up the carb's passages to the intake, where they empty their buckets into the air stream. 

But, if you don't ride the bike for a while, bad things can happen. 
Tiny bats take up residence in the chambers of the carb, and before 
long the passages are plugged up with guano. This creates a gnome 
traffic jam, and so not enough bucketfuls of fuel can get to the 
engine. If it gets bad enough, the gnomes simply give up and go take a nap. The engine won't run at all at this point. Sometimes you'll hhave a single dedicated gnome still on the job, which is why the bike 
will occasionally fire as the gnome tosses his lone bucket load down 
the intake. 

There has been some research into using tiny dwarves in modern carbs. The advantage is that unlike gnomes, dwarves are miners and can often re-open a clogged passage. Unfortunately, dwarves have a natural fear of earthquakes, as any miner should. In recent tests, the engine vibrations caused the dwarves to evacuate the Harley Davidson test vehicle and make a beeline for the nearest BMW dealership. Sadly, BMW's are fuel injected and so the poor dwarves met an unfortunate end in the rollers of a Bosch fuel pump. 

Other carb problems can also occur. If the level of fuel in the float bowl rises too high, it will wipe out the poorer gnome housing in the lower parts of the carb. The more affluent gnomes build their homes in the diaphragm chamber, and so are unaffected. This is why the bike is said to be "running rich". 

If the fuel bowl level drops, then the gnomes have to walk farther to 
get a bucketful of fuel. This means less fuel gets to the engine. 
Because the gnomes get quite a workout from this additional distance, 
this condition is known as "running lean". 

The use of the device known only as the 'choke' has finally been 
banned by PETG (People for the Ethical Treatment of Gnomes) and 
replaced by a new carb circuit that simply allows more gnomes to carry 
fuel at once when the engine needs to start or warm up. In the 
interests of decorum, I prefer not to explain how the 'choke' 
operated. You would rather not know anyway. 

So, that's how a carburetor works. You may wish to join us here next 
week for basics of electricity, or "How your bike creates cold fusion 
inside the stator, and why the government doesn't want you to know 
about it." 









_Modified by GTaye at 4:59 PM 9-8-2004_

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Later,
Thomas


_Modified by the12for12 at 10:37 AM 6-21-2007_


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## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*

Carbs - The Basic
The usual tuning last for the N/A motor includes for the most part, headers, muffler, exhaust, hi-profile cams, high comp pistons... But have you considered carburetors? Here's a look at the classic but effective form of N/A motor induction.
When one thinks of high performance carburetion applications, we tend to imagine funneled intake making that nice classic induction noise... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
One of the major advantages in using the carburetors is in it's throttle response. This is more apparent in the racing field where no filters or collectors are used in the intake. Also, compared to the single throttle injection, the Mikuni and Weber style side-draft uses dual, 2 barrel throttles for a total of 4 individual throttle mechanisms to mix the fuel and air with more control and immediacy, resulting in a positive production of gasoline/air mixture, and in turn making potentially more torque than single throttle. As you may know, there are 4 throttle, fuel injection mechanism too. And the resulting principle is similar. The two systems do have very similar, and distinct advantage over the single throttle setup. 
*So, what's so hot about using carburetors?* 
Well, here are some characteristics you may find attractive:
First of all, carburetors need no intervention of ECU's which can be both expensive and in most cases limited in adjustability, unless expensive alternatives like those programmable variety is in your budget. Although it takes some practice, setting a carburetor can be as simple as changing the jets and monitoring air/ fuel ratios. The goal is to match the jets within the carburetors to the required spray pattern and volume to desired mixture at a given rpm and vacuum. There are usually main jets and sub jets for various compensation, both of which have to be manually setup.
Second, the carburetors can be adjusted for much wider variety of engine setups using the same unit for the most part. Since the carburetor's adjustment is in the jets alone, it can accommodate almost anything you can imagine...as long as it's normally aspirated. (Well, some forced induction setups exited in the past but all of them are running fuel injection now)
Third and my favorite reason for the carburetors is the esthetics... The setup simply looks really nice!!!! and it sounds mean! Once an addict, you'll never go back. 
*So why don't you install them right away?* 
Well, there are some stuff you should be aware before you jump in.
Since carburetors work with very narrow, optimized range, the more you set it for peak performance in one area, the more you will run into substandard operation in other areas. For example, the carburetors cannot compensate for difference in gasoline or effects of climatic temperatures and pressures on it's own. This adjustment is left to the owner to re-adjust each time. Though carburetors do operate very well in most conditions, the fuel delivery under many different conditions is usually much more accurate with modern electronic fuel injection. And usually much more efficient.
For those who likes to tinker or wants optimum mixtures for a narrowly focused field, this can be much fun. Certainly, you will get attention from those not so inclined when you fiddle with carburetors on the spot and get good results. Race mechanics are often admired for such talent and gets gratification from that alone.
But at the same time, it's certainly a chore for those who likes to me free of maintenance tasks or depend on it to commute every day. You must be frequently prepared to re-jet them or make adjustments when weather changes dramatically. For sure, those who live in areas with drastic seasonal climate changes will have to make adjustments all throughout the year, to keep it in top shape, and sometimes even just to start the engine.
Keeping the above precautions in mind, the carburetors are seriously rewarding piece of equipment, and once it is running correctly, it's hard to beat with even the best fuel injection in terms of response and torque output...
_footnoted from_http://www.club4ag.com/
righton,
Thomas


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## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*

Sidedraft - Data Reference
*1.*In carbs, bigger is not necessary better. Most engines that do not run well have chokes, main jets, accelerator pump discharge jets and/or fuel pressure that are too large for the engine, and running conditions. 
*2.*It is not possible to tune an engine that has some mechanical problem. Well built engines respond perfectly to correctly tuned side drafts. 
*3.*Electronic Injection vs. Carbs: Overall, the performance of these injection systems (if correctly set up) is unmatched by any carburetor but the differences between fuel injection and a well tuned side draft can be very small. 
*4.*It is possible that changing to carbs will mean that your car will no longer comply with exhaust emission control or other regulations in your state or country. 
*5.*An increase in engine power and therefore, performance, will mean that your car’s braking and suspension systems will need to be kept in perfect conditions and up rated as appropriated. 
*6.*Engines last a lot longer if the air admitted into the engine is as clean as possible. Always fit the very best filtration system that you can afford to buy. Wire mesh filters over ram stack offer virtually no protection (except from stones) and can actually upset airflow. 
*7.*Ram tubes, trumpets or air horns (stacks) should always be fitted to a modified engine. As a general rule:
1. Short ram tubes are usually used for high rpm applications. 
2. Longer rams are usually used to maximize mid-range response.
*8.*Webers/Dellortos require high fuel volume not high fuel pressure, i.e., 1.5 to 2.5 pounds per square inch. 
*9.*When tuning your engine the cost of buying parts has to be balanced against the actual cost of getting a specialist firm to carry out this work. It is possible to spend a considerable amount of money on jets, chokes, etc.(new or second-hand) that you will end up not using. 
*10.*Very small choke sizes in large bodies is not a good idea. Overall recommendation: Fit the smallest choke that will give full power. 
*11.*When a slight choke size reduction is necessary to achieve better low end performance (eg: out of a corner pulling power) then fit a choke size that proves best for the overall application. 
*12.*Once the carburetors have been set-up to give optimum performance, you’ll still need to check them occasionally to keep them working at their best. 
Check throttle spindle synchronization, float level, idle mixture and change fuel filter at regular intervals. 
_footnoted from_http://www.club4ag.com/
righton,
Thomas


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## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*

Selection and tuning of Weber DCOE carburettors 
A very popular modification for kit car owners is the fitment of twin Weber DCOE or DCO/SP carburettors; these not only deliver the goods but also look very good. A good deal of mystique surrounds Webers, specifically Weber jetting and tuning. However Weber DCO series carbs are not as complicated as you might imagine, and whereas there is no substitute for a good rolling road session to tune them, there is much you can do to tune them yourself, by selecting the correct choke sizes and initial jet settings according to a fairly simple set of rules. This should get the engine running to a reasonable standard in preparation for the rolling road. 
Arriving at the correct carb/venturi size 
When selecting Webers, the most commonly asked question is "Should I have 40s or 45s" coupled with "Surely the 45s will give more power". This shows a basic misunderstanding of the construction and principles of operation of the DCO series. It is not the barrel size (40 or 45) which determines the airflow and therefore potential horsepower; it is the size of the main venturi or choke. Selection of the correct main venturi size is the first step in selecting the carburettor. 
It is easy to make the assumption that biggest is best when selecting a main venturi size, but the purpose of the main venturi is to increase the vacuum acting on the main jet in order to draw in and effectively atomise the fuel mixture. The smaller the main venturi, the more effective this action is, but a smaller venturi will inhibit flow. A large venturi may give more power right at the top end of the power band, but will give this at the expense of lower RPM tractability. Only a circuit racer will benefit from this sort of compromise, on a road car, driveability is much more important. 95 percent of the time, a road engine is nowhere near its peak power, but is near its peak torque for 75 percent of the time. It is much more important therefore to select the main venturi for best driveability, once the venturi size has been selected, then the appropriate carburettor size can be arrived at.
Here is a small chart showing the available Main Venturi size for Common DCO series carbs
*Size Available Venturi sizes 
40 24-36mm 
42 24-34mm 
45 28-40mm 
48 40-42mm 
48/50SP 42-46mm 
55SP 46-48mm* 
Below is a chart that will allow the correct selection of main venturi size for engines given the engines capacity and the RPM at which peak power is realistically expected to be achieved, for road engines peak power is usually between 5250 and 6500, depending on the cam selection. After the correct venturi size has been arrived at it is a simple matter to determine whether 40/45 or 48 DCOs are required, take the venturi size and multiply by 1.25, the result is then the ideal barrel size which will accommodate the venturi size selected. 
Chart Showing Main Venturi Sizes for Various Engine sizes and RPM ranges 








Carburettor Barrel size calculation 
Venturi/choke size * 1.25 
For example: a two litre engine giving its maximum power at 6000RPM will require a venturi size of 36mm, and therefore an ideal barrel size of 45mm (36 * 1.25). For this application 45 DCOE is the ideal solution, however a 40 DCOE will accommodate a 36mm choke, so if funds are limited and the engine is not going to be tuned further then 40 DCOEs will do the job. 
If you have bought your Webers second-hand, it is important to understand that it is unlikely that they will be 'ready jetted'. However if you do not want the expense of changing the main venturis, you will still need to know their size, this is normally embossed on the venturi itself, so look carefully down through the main barrel of the carb from the air cleaner side. 
 Diagram of Main Jet assembly 








Main Jet and Air Corrector Size Selection 
A useful formula for the calculation of main jet size when the main venturi size is known is to multiply the main venturi size by 4. This will give a starting point for the main jet size which should be 'safe', again as a starting point the emulsion tubes can be selected from the table shown below, although for Pinto F9 or F16 will generally be OK. If your carbs are already equipped with these, then that will save you some money. Air corrector jet initial settings should be around 50 higher than the main jet. 
Main jet size Venturi size * 4 
Air corrector Main jet size + 50 

Using these formulae, a venturi size of 36mm will require a main jet of 145 and an air corrector of around 190. 
Emulsion tube Selection 
Below is a table showing suggested emulsion tube type, for a given single cylinder capacity. 
Cylinder capacity Suggested tube 
250-325 F11 
275-400 F15 
350-475 F9, F16 
450-575 F2 
Using the above formulae, the ideal settings for a 2000cc Pinto with power peaking at 6000RPM (290 degree cam or above) are as follows 
36mm chokes
F16 or F2 Emulsion tubes
145 Main jet
190 Air corrector 
The 2000cc Pinto in just on the cusp of change for emulsion tube type between F16 and F2, if you already have F16 tubes, use them it is not worth the expense of change, they will just cause the main circuit to start marginally earlier. A 2.1 or 2.2 Pinto should however be using F2s although F16s will do the job acceptably well.
Diagram of Idle Jet Assembly 








Idle Jet selection 
Idle jets cause a lot of confusion; although their name suggests that they govern the idle mixture, this is incorrect. It is true that the fuel consumed at idle is drawn through the idle jet, but the idle mixture is metered not by these jets, but by the idle volume screws mounted on top of each barrel. The idle jets control the critical off-idle progression between closed throttle and the main jet circuit, it is this part throttle operation which is so important to smooth progression between closed throttle and acceleration and for part throttle driving. If this circuit is too weak then the engine will stutter or nosedive when opening the throttle, too rich and the engine will hunt and surge especially when hot. The technique for establishing the correct idle jet size is detailed later, but as a starting point 40/45f9 idle jets for a 1600 engine 45/50 f9 for an 1800 and 50/55f9 for a 2000 will get you out of jail free. 
Below is a chart showing approximate idle jet sizes for given engine sizes, this assumes one carb barrel per inlet port E.G. two DCOEs.
Engine size Idle jet size 
1600cc 40/45 
1800cc 45/50 
2000cc 50/55 
2100cc 55/60 
Establishing the correct idle jet for a given engine is not easy but usually an approximation will make the car acceptably driveable. If the progression is weak then the engine will nosedive when moving the accelerator from smaller to larger throttle openings. A certain amount of change (richer/weaker) to progression can be achieved by varying the air jet size on the idle jet; this alters the amount of air that is emulsified with the fuel drawn through the idle jet. If this does not richen the progression sufficiently then the next jet size up, with the same air bleed should be tried. Below is a small chart showing the most commonly used air size designations, running from weak to rich. Generally speaking start your selection with an F9 air bleed. 
Weaker Normal Rich 
F3 , F1 , F7 , F5 ,F2-F4 ,F13 ,F8-F11-F14,F9 , F12 , F6 
The ones in normal use are F2,F8,F9 and F6. 

icandigit,
Thomas
_footnoted_http://members.aol.com/dvandrews/webers.htm


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## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*

Buying second-hand  
When buying Webers second-hand ensure that they are a matched pair. Look carefully at the serial numbers on the top of the carbs, these should be the same, or very similar. If they are not then they are not a matched pair and may well give problems when trying to jet them, as the progression drillings could be different. Inspect the carbs very carefully before parting with your cash, check their general condition, check for fire/heat damage, check that the butterflies open and close smoothly and that the linkages are smooth in operation and the carbs don't stick open. A common problem with Webers is the attachment of the throttle quadrant to the spindle, these can wear and will give an erratic idle and progression which no amount of tuning will cure. It is important to note that Webers are very rarely 'ready jetted' so factor the cost of jets etc. when deciding on your purchase. Check the throttle spindles for wear, excessive wear here will bleed air into the engine and again will affect setting up dramatically. Servicing kits for Webers are relatively cheap so a neglected pair, provided that the above checks are carried out, can be restored to very good condition by a thorough clean and service, the servicing is not difficult but has to be done in a clean environment, using a methodical approach. 
_footnoted_http://members.aol.com/dvandrews/webers.htm
icandigit,
Thomas


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## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*

Fuel Pumps and Fuel Pressure 
Fuel delivery is critical to the proper performance of any Weber carb. From a basic 32/36 DGEV to a set of Triple Sidedraft DCOE's. Webers rely on a stable full float bowl in order to mix the fuel and air correctly. Mechanical pumps very rarely do this. They pulse fuel instead of giving a smooth even delivery and the amount of fuel varies with engine RPM. 
A Proper Electric Fuel pump will give the best performance and most stable tuning for any Weber carb application. We use only High Volme and Low Pressure pumps. Webers work best at approx 4 psi of fuel pressure (Not 2 psi like many of the older books stated.) and you need Volume not Pressure to keep the float bowl full.
We ONLY use the Carter Rotary pumps. They are High Volume (60-70 GPH) but only 4 psi. This is PERFECT for all Weber applications from a Single 32/36 DGV on a Truck, Jeep or Car to a Triple Sidedraft setup on a Road Race car making 300 HP...This pump DOES NOT and SHOULD NOT use a Pressure Regulator for any reason. That is why we use it....
















*Carter 4070 Fuel pump with Mounting Bracket *
_*Problem Pump and Regulator setups:*
These are combinations that many of you are using and you could be experiencing problems because of it.
_
Holly Fuel Pumps with Regulator:
This is a very common combination and it has alot of problems. The pump puts out too much pressure so you have to buy a regulator for it. The Regulator is just a restrictor that inhibits flow. This causes a huge loss of Volume and overloads the pump causing alot of noise and premature failure. This results in the float bowl going low or empty under hard acceleration and causes cornering problems.
Facet Fuel Pump:
This is one of those little square pumps with the transistor mounted on top that make a ticking noise all the time. These pumps are TERRIBLE. No volume and High Pressure. These pumps have been sold for many years with Weber and Mikuni conversions and have cause many people alot of tuning problems. They are a pulse type pump that delivers almost no volume (usually less than the stock mechanical pump did) and usually at High Pressure. This cause flooding at idle and lean out conditions under high load. Do not use them....
_footnoted_http://www.racetep.com/weber.html#websynch


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## maschinenvolkg60 (Nov 28, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*

bump for some good info


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## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (maschinenvolkg60)*

Basic weber carburetors settings
chokes; Main jet ; emulsion tube; air corrector; idle jet; pump jet; needle valve;
*DCOE40*
_upto 90 BHP_; 28; 112; F16; 180; 45F9; 35; 150
_upto 120 BHP_; 30; 120; F16; 180; 45F9; 35; 150
_upto 135 BHP_; 32; 125; F16; 180; 45F9; 40; 150
_upto 145 BHP_; 34; 135; F16; 180; 45F9; 40; 150
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Weber DCOM caruburetors require slightly richer idle jets and bigger main jets
*DCOE45*
_upto 145 BHP_; 34; 135; F16; 165; 55F8; 45; 200
_upto 175 BHP_; 36; 145; F16; 165; 55F8; 45; 200
_upto 210 BHP_; 38; 155; F16; 165; 55F8; 45; 200
_upto 220 BHP_; 40; 165; F16; 165; 55F8; 45; 200
*VW16v/20516v&1.9/GM 16v ; 36 choke setting
above 16v engines but modified ; 38 choke setting*
DCOE float level should be set at 7.5mm

*The settings above apply to stock engines.modified engines usually require bigger venturis bigger main jets and ofter bigger pump jets*
Carbureting cars and motorbikes isnt a hard task if its done with the right attitude and patience. 
Its basically all about being able to provide the engine with the correct stechiometric mixture thru all the 3 fases of the carburetor's transitions-idle,progression and main.a 14.7:1 air/fuel mixture is the optimal burning mixture for the engine.performance applications require slightly richer mixture.some simple and easy to remember procedures will solve most of the problems. 
after the carburetos have been jetted at the basic, recomended setting for your specific application the next step is to install the carburetors on the manifold (all the jets can be changed if needed while the carburetors are on the engine-in 99% of all cases). 
after verifying that everything that leads to the carburetors (mainly fuel pressure ,distributor advance settings and fuel pump) and after a simple and fast check that are no air leaks between the carburetors and the intake manifold (can be done with foam or water shaked with soap)the main task of jetting the carbs can be accomplished. **a cheap O2 sensor or a CO tester are most useful at this stage but the job can be also done by checking the spark plugs' color.these last two are to verify the richness or leaness of the mixture**. 
Getting to the basic task of setting the jets just right for the application always divide the procedure in 3 phases;idle,progression and main circuit. 
1.with the engine turned on-the idle screw should be turned out just enough to feed the engine on low revs with the butterflies closed. if the engine requires idle screws turned out too many turns then you are running too small idle jets.depending on the type of carburetors the optimal setting should be 1.5-6 turns out.
2.passing to the progression phase the verification should be done once accelerating slowly to 3000-3500rpm and once fast.there shouldnt be any hesitation on both trials.hesitation on the first slow test-when the pump jets dont come into action may indicate lean/rich idle jets or too small main jets.if the hesitation only occurs on the fast acceleration test then the pump jets are too small.try increasing the pump jets' size,shorten the acceleration pump lever's run or change the pump jets to the form of the that squirts the fuel right to the middle of the cylinders.carburetors with more progression holes require bigger idle jets then carburetors with fewer holes(the increased number of holes was produced in order to have a smoother transition fase from idle to main.An increased number of progression holes and an adjustable pump lever arm provide you with plenty of adjusting possibilities to get the transition right.these two elements are found in all the later types of Italian made carburetors-dellorto,weber (dcom and dcoe) and solex.if factories went out of their way to change the production lines for these last two element changes-there is a good reason for it.technology goes forward in time!(specially when the brand names are weber,dellorto and solex)).bigger main jets enriches the mixture on low and middle range RPM's while small air correctors enriches the mixture at high RPM .
often hesitation can be solved by merely opening the air-by-pass screws.this increases the air flow velocity .cars having long duration cams often require an opening of these air-by-pass screws to increase the idle air speed flow.(its also used to balance the air flow between the barrels).***please note that the air-by-pass screws are present in all the latest types of italian made dual barrel carburetors.sometimes they are stil tapped with very thin alluminum caps-that is how they came out of the factory after settings have been made.a little tap on them with a pointed tool will remove them for inspection and adjustments.always remember to seal them with some silicon to avoid dirt getting inside***.
3. the main circuit is adjusted by changing the main jets,air correctors and/or the emulsion tubes.a optimal setting should have the engine rev up clean with no flat spots.
4. Hesitation is a symptom of a lean or rich mixture in the same transition fase where it occurs.a look at the spark plugs will give you the right direction.correcting it involves change of jets,change of emulsion tubes(please note that lean emulsion tubes can often be adjusted for proper use by installing smaller air correctors),opening/closing the air-by-pass screws,adjusting the pump jet level's run and checking the float level(a higher float level leads to richer mixture and idle inconvenients).
5.99.5% of the italian made carburetors have the cold starting choke option.if you live in cold weather and the engine compartment space permits you to use it-then please use it.its most helpfull in starting the engine in the cold weather.

_footnoted_http://members.ebay.com/ws2/eB...a1750
righton,
Thomas


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## g60vw (Oct 3, 2002)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*

AWESOME info!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Needs to be a sticky.

Garth


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## Redline Evangelist (Jun 30, 2003)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (g60vw)*

Could you cover ignition/rev limiter next http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Redline Evangelist)*

A.*IGNITION *
_How to control the engine's ignition without an ECU is the most asked for answer. There are several way to do this, first being the easiest. _

2.Aftermarket ignition control: Simply buy an MSD 6A(L) or Crane HI-6 ignition box and use the magnetic pick ups from the stock distributor and you will have a working ignition. I have not seen the Crane HI-6 used successfully, but it is cheaper than an MSD 6AL, and comes with a module (pill) less rev-limiter. I personally use the MSD 6A, without rev control. The typical belief of the ignition boxes is that they do not have a built in ignition advance. The 4AGE can run smoothly with around 20-30 BTDC static ignition timing. However, the MSD has a nice built in feature that is not found while reading the instruction manual. By reversing the magnetic leads, the MSD can give you a nice timing advance curve. You simply set the ignition at you want at idle (stock is around 10-15 degrees BTDC). As you blimp the throttle, you will find that the timing jumps to around 20-35 degrees BTDC. For more control over the timing, you can purchase an MSD ignition control box which allows full control of the timing curve.
Another plus feature of going with an aftermarket ignition box is the added spark power (with accompany coil). With carburetion, the fuel is not atomized as well as EFI injectors. Therefore, having a higher power ignition spark can only add power. Don't forget to go with lower resistance spark plug wires as well.
2.Stock ECU: If you already have the stock ECU wired up, there is no need to remove it necessarily. I have heard that the ECU can work the ignition control independently of the fuel system. You might get some error codes because the injectors and stock EFI manifold will be disconnected. This would be a cheaper way of doing the ignition. I have not seen this work personally, but theoretically, it should work. 
_footnoted_http://www.geocities.com/ae82power/FAQ-carbs.html
B.*Ignition Systems, Spark Output and Spark Advance*
_This is a serious topic that seems to get ignored even by professional installers._
The essence of a Weber conversion is that you are putting on a Larger carb that flows more fuel and Air to make more HP. 
Most older cars that are getting these carbs installed on them had very bad Point and Condensor Igntion systems with very low spark output. These systems were barely adequate for a stock carb let alone a performance upgrade. Adding even a single 32/36 carb to an old BMW, Opel, Etc will overload the stock ignitions systems capabilities. 
When you add Dual or Triple carbs you are really causing a problem. You are adding a bunch of extra Fuel and Air but not adding the extra fire needed to burn it properly. This results in jetting problems, rich running conditions, etc. If you are doing a conversion from a later model Fuel Injected car that had a decent Electronic Igntion system on it this will not be as much of a problem although you could have a problem with Spark Advance on these types of vehicles (Read below.)
When doing a Weber conversion on an older Point type Ignition car it is a MUST to at least do an upgrade to Electronic Ignition with a higher output Coil and good wires and plugs. This will allow you to jet and tune the carb to its maximum HP and Fuel Economy potential. 
We use the Pertronix Ignition conversion on most vehicles with the Bosch Red Coil and good plug wires and NGK SPark plugs. On dual and triple carb conversion we highly recommend the use of the MSD Spark Amplifiers with the Electronic Ignition. This will insure you have enough spark to burn all that extra fuel you are throwing at it. The difference in HP, Idle Quality, Cold Starts, and Fuel Economy are all very noticeable when doing the Ignition upgrades.
Spark advance is the other problem you are faced with. Most factory carb equipped cars have vacuum advance distributors. This is fine when installing a 32/36 or 38/38 because they have vacuum advance ports int the carb but when installing sidedrafts you do not have this option.
DO NOT hookup the distributor vacuum advance to the intake Manifold. That does not work and is a common mistake we see. If you do that you will pull full advance at idle then as soon as you open the throttle it loose vacuum and the timing will retard quickly causing a big stumble or flat spot and very bad throttle response. 
When running Sidedrafts you need to either get a centrifugal advance distributor or leave your vacuum advance disconnected and just run more initial timing. You usually need 12-14 degress advance at 1000 RPM and 36 degrees total by 3000 RPM for the carbs to react properly. These timing numbers are baseline estimates only and can vary from car to car. You have to make sure you do not have a detonation problem from too much advance. 
_footnoted_http://www.racetep.com/webfuelspark.html#webspark
icandigit,
Thomas


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## Redline Evangelist (Jun 30, 2003)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*

Thanks


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## vdubjunkie37 (Oct 25, 2003)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (g60vw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *g60vw* »_AWESOME info!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Needs to be a sticky.

Garth

i second that. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Redline Evangelist (Jun 30, 2003)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Redline Evangelist)*

Timing without detonation please.


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## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Redline Evangelist)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Redline Evangelist* »_Timing without detonation please.

*Timing considerations*
If you just add DCOEs to an engine and start it up chances are that it will idle poorly and occasionally spit out the front of the carbs. Modified engines and engines with DCOEs need more than stock advance. Stock advance is 4 degrees BTDC. You will probably need at least 8 degrees BTDC initial timing with a cam and DCOEs. With a cam a good idle speed should be 800-1200 RPM depending upon the duration of the cam. If the timing is too retarded the engine will not perform well below 3000-ish RPM unless you had very big idle jets. A way rich idle jet can mast a lack of spark advance and reduce cab spittings but will drastically decrease fuel mileage.
_footnoted_http://www.cruzers.com/~twakem...o.htm
righton,
Thomas


----------



## 89sport (Oct 1, 2003)

Are these tuning guidelines as far as jets go applicable to all carbs, ie a sportbike setup?


----------



## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: (89sport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *89sport* »_Are these tuning guidelines as far as jets go applicable to all carbs, ie a sportbike setup?








I'm not too sure, but I'll find out for you, OK?


----------



## asnvolks (Mar 30, 2004)

*Re: (the12for12)*

12.........hey kid i was reading the good stuff about the MSD box....i am running that same box, will that short it out reversing the wires?, and will it last if you do that? i bought my A2 with it all good to go and the timing gear rounded out and took out all my intake valves before i got to jump into it further and play with it......do you have the diagram for that box, so i can see if indeed they did that......the car is kind of been half azzed so i am trying to sort thru all the ghetto rigging that they did..........thanks in advance........oh by the way she was running 13.6's before the little mishap.....


----------



## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: (asnvolks)*

asnvolks,
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Kool questions, but I'm running Jacoubs stuff personally http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif . Gimme a minute I find what you're asking for , OK?
icandigit,
Thomas


----------



## wolfsbaum4 (Aug 24, 2002)

*Re: (the12for12)*

Thomas, sent you an IM


----------



## asnvolks (Mar 30, 2004)

*Re: (wolfsbaum4)*

jacobs is the shizzle........i ran that back in the day when i was into aircooled, absoultely loved it........but my car came with the MSD so i am just going to stay with it.......


----------



## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: (asnvolks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *asnvolks* »_12.........hey kid i was reading the good stuff about the MSD box....i am running that same box, will that short it out reversing the wires?, and will it last if you do that? i bought my A2 with it all good to go and the timing gear rounded out and took out all my intake valves before i got to jump into it further and play with it......do you have the diagram for that box, so i can see if indeed they did that......the car is kind of been half azzed so i am trying to sort thru all the ghetto rigging that they did..........thanks in advance........oh by the way she was running 13.6's before the little mishap.....

http://www.msdignition.com/downld1.htm
http://www.msdignition.com/pdf/pn6350.pdf
http://www.msdignition.com/pdf/pn6600.pdf
http://www.msdignition.com/pdf/pn_6462.pdf
http://www.msdignition.com/pdf...r.pdf
http://www.msdignition.com/pdf/tb_top_10.pdf
http://www.msdignition.com/pdf...l.pdf







Hopefully this helps to clarify some of your concerns.
icandigit,
Thomas


----------



## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: (89sport)*


_Quote, originally posted by *89sport* »_Are these tuning guidelines as far as jets go applicable to all carbs, ie a sportbike setup?


http://www.geocities.com/Motor...s.htm


----------



## FastLapRSII (Jul 15, 2001)

*Re: (the12for12)*

What's the fuel PSI of the stock in-tank fuel pump?
Could this be used after eliminating the main pump and housing?


----------



## asnvolks (Mar 30, 2004)

*Re: (FastLapRSII)*

i don't believe so.......i have never heard of anyone using that pump........the pump for carb set up is very cheap.......i ran out and bought a getto pump after this nice expensive pump on the car quit working and have been running with it ever since......auto zone $30 bucks......and of course running a fuel pressure regulator set to 2.5 (didn't have to replace that, but pretty cheap as well i am sure)........


----------



## RaceJetta (Oct 18, 2002)

*Re: (asnvolks)*

I use the intank transfer pump on my Mk2 racecar. With a pressure regulator, it provides more than enough fuel and pressure.


----------



## FastLapRSII (Jul 15, 2001)

*Re: (RaceJetta)*

Seems like a high volume/low pressure pump to me.
Glad to hear someone has tried this!


----------



## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: (RaceJetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RaceJetta* »_I use the intank transfer pump on my Mk2 racecar. With a pressure regulator, it provides more than enough fuel and pressure.

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## glibobbo21 (Nov 11, 2002)

*Re: (the12for12)*

this is great


----------



## RabbitsKin (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: (glibobbo21)*

What do the terms DCOE and IDF mean, when talking about Webers?


----------



## candm (Apr 27, 2003)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*

can i use the bosch fuel pump and accumulator with carbs? i have a 2.0 liter 16 valve motor going in a 79 rabbit with motronic but might switch to carbs. both the accumulator and fuel pump are brand new. thanks


----------



## noypiesky (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (candm)*

Anyone know where I can get parts for dellorto's? Specifically for 45 DHLA? TIA.


----------



## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (noypiesky)*

search Ebay


----------



## Rabbit 16v (Feb 4, 2002)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (candm)*


_Quote, originally posted by *candm* »_can i use the bosch fuel pump and accumulator with carbs? i have a 2.0 liter 16 valve motor going in a 79 rabbit with motronic but might switch to carbs. both the accumulator and fuel pump are brand new. thanks

Absolutely not. You will blow out all the seals and gaskets from the carbs. The FI pump operates around 80 psi. Carbs use between 4 and 7 psi . Anything higher is damaging to the carbs and definitely a fire hazard.


----------



## 2L Bunny (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (noypiesky)*


_Quote, originally posted by *noypiesky* »_Anyone know where I can get parts for dellorto's? Specifically for 45 DHLA? TIA.









If you haven't tried CB Performance they have a lots of Dell parts. Alternetely check out http://www.dellorto.co.uk I ordered my chokes from them and they showed up in like 4 days. I was really impressed.


----------



## sirdUbsalot (Apr 22, 2003)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*

Sorry about that, I've had some **** going on lately that forced me to give in to my brother's demands to trade him my Rabbit for his 92 GTI. Since I've done this and won't have any money in the near future because of medical bills, I will be unable to undertake any big projects.
Oh well, maybe my brother will come by and ask the same question and you'll







at him.


_Modified by sirdUbsalot at 5:03 AM 11-16-2004_


----------



## Rabbit 16v (Feb 4, 2002)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (sirdUbsalot)*

We will first need you to address how much money you have for this venture and what you intend to accomplish.


----------



## a1maker (Aug 2, 2003)

*Re: (asnvolks)*











_Modified by a1maker at 9:28 AM 10-30-2004_


----------



## a1maker (Aug 2, 2003)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*


----------



## Stephen Webb (Apr 12, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the12for12* »_A.*IGNITION *
However, the MSD has a nice built in feature that is not found while reading the instruction manual. By reversing the magnetic leads, the MSD can give you a nice timing advance curve. You simply set the ignition at you want at idle (stock is around 10-15 degrees BTDC). As you blimp the throttle, you will find that the timing jumps to around 20-35 degrees BTDC. ,


I found this in a search, and I thought I would comment.
I don't know for sure what is going on inside the MSD box to cause this, but I have a guess. If my guess is right, this probably isn't the best idea for controlling advance.
As the trigger wheel aproaches the sensor, a positive voltage is generated. As the trigger nears the point where it is closest to the sensor, the voltage rapidly drops and goes negative. (This is the event you want to capture) As the wheel moves away from the sensor, the negative voltage increases as it tends toward the steady state of about 0V. 
If you switch the wires, then you get a voltage response that goes negative, jumps positive, then settles to zero. The MSD unit is probably triggered by a negative going zero crossing. If you have it connected correctly, this corresponds to the point where the trigger wheel is closest. This part of the voltage output curve is very steep and doesn't vary much with RPM -- so the output from the detection circuit is pretty stable.
Switching the wires means that the detection circuit will *not* trigger on the nice crisp transition because it will be a "positive going" transition (starts negative, and goes positive). Instead the circuit will trigger sometime later as the voltage settles back down to near zero. Unfortunately this part of the curve both varies with RPM and isn't very steep. The "varies with RPM" part is what makes it advance the timing. The fact that it isn't a steep curve means that slight variations (including the temperature of the electronics, external "noise", etc.) can have a significant effect on when the circuit will trigger. 
This may be a bit far afield for a carb FAQ, but I thought I would add it. Keep in mind that this is again just my guess based on my understanding of how the ignition system works. And while I'm pretty confident that switching the polarity of the wires is *not* a standard operating mode -- if it works, and it's consistent..go for it. Just be aware of potential problems (I would expect inconsistent advance values)
-Steve


----------



## RaceJetta (Oct 18, 2002)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Stephen Webb)*

First off, if you have a fixed dizzy, you can't advance the timing from the MSD. First off, measuring timing with a timing light is near impossible with an MSD because of the multi-spark to measure the static timing at idle. With a fixed dizzy, I just set my timing above 4k rpm where the multi-spark function of the MSD box doesn't occur. The multispark feature of the box is only below 3000 or something IIRC. I'm not quite sure what is being seen to make the statement that the MSD actually provides a timing curve.


----------



## bigdavevw (Oct 2, 2004)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*

alrite folks would you please be able to give a bit of info on pierburg 2e2,s as mine is playing up.







My car is a golf mk2 1.6 driver and i would like to know if a weber 32/34 dmtl is a direct replacement. Any help would be greatly appreciated. thanx in advance


----------



## 89S216V (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*

Any idea if you can feed this pump with the stock vw CisE transfer pump in the tank, or do you remove it and run the Carter solo? The carter 4070 puts out 5 Psi. Isn't that to much for Webers?
Thanks.


----------



## RaceJetta (Oct 18, 2002)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (89S216V)*

Yes, the Mk2 in tank transfer pump can provide enough pressure and volume to run a car on dual weber dcoe 45 or mikuni phh 44s. Been there done it. Also used a fuel pressure regulator.


----------



## brainjerauld (Oct 21, 2004)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*

OK OK I'm stumped about the whole MSD thing!!!!!!!! I need help bad!!!!!!!!!!!, I have the MSD 6 box but how do I wire it to the distributor







If somebody could give me a diagram on how to do this I would appreciate it


----------



## RaceJetta (Oct 18, 2002)

MSD wiring diagram with OEM ignitor.


----------



## brainjerauld (Oct 21, 2004)

*Re: (RaceJetta)*

Ignition control unit? you mean the stock computer on the golf??? I seem to be missing that..........


----------



## brainjerauld (Oct 21, 2004)

*Re: (brainjerauld)*

I have ripped all of the wires out of the car because I have switched over to the carbs so all I have is the distributor, the MSD, the coil, and a battery,........This setup wont work? what else do I need?







I am no electrician


----------



## RaceJetta (Oct 18, 2002)

*Re: (brainjerauld)*

That's the ignitor. That little black thing right under the rain tray on the driver's side.


----------



## RaceJetta (Oct 18, 2002)

*Re: (brainjerauld)*

That's the ignitor. That little black thing right under the rain tray on the driver's side.
Wire the dizzy to the ignitor, then wire in the MSD between the ignitor and the coil. You need the ignitor because the MSD cannot trigger off the OEM hall sender in the dizzy. Then you will likely need a MSD 8980 timing computer to give your car some low rpm retard. Set the mechanical timing to 30-32 deg BTDC, and then the MSD 8980 will retard it 20 degrees at idle so that it starts and runs easier.
Good luck.


----------



## brainjerauld (Oct 21, 2004)

*Re: (RaceJetta)*

OK,.... I tried the diagram over and over, not missing a thing and still NO SPARK!!!!!







If I get rid of the MSD and just wire the ignition module, coil, and distributor, will that work??? and how do I do it? This seemed like it would be simple







but still no spark!!! There must be a way!


----------



## Flintstone (Jan 9, 2003)

*Re: (brainjerauld)*

Back to the FAQ







Is there a good source to buy a Carter 4070 pump? I can't seem to find one around here. Also I need to buy parts for my DHLA's, maybe someone could post up some links for good sources for Weber and Dellorto carb parts.







Thanks, lots of good info here. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by Flintstone at 9:04 PM 10-31-2005_


----------



## JDIEM (Sep 30, 2003)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (RaceJetta)*

I am very new to carbs. I have a 92 jetta 1.8 digifant. I want to put in a 2.0 with weber 40s that I have. so the way I understand this is that I dont use the fuel pump that is underneath the car on the passenger side. I just use the pre pump in the gas tank for fuel to the webers? Thanks for any help


----------



## Rabbit 16v (Feb 4, 2002)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (JDIEM)*

Use the pump in the tank and add a second pump. Low pressure high volume. Pierburg makes a nice unit for that application.


----------



## Mk2enthusiast (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: (RabbitsKin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RabbitsKin* »_What do the terms DCOE and IDF mean, when talking about Webers? 

*"Weber nomenclature is chaos"*
The prefix is the size of the throttle plate, a 40DCOE has a 40mm plate.
The letters refe,r in italian, to the general type of the carburetor;
*DC* means _doppio corpo_ or double throat
*V/O* means _verticale/orizzontale_ vertical or horizontal respectively
*I* (in IDA) seems to mean _invertito_ or inverted, although there are no updraft webers, the IDA is a downdraft
less consistent single letter designations:
*E* Die-cast carburetor
*F* Ford or Ferrari? application
*V* Weber with a power valve
*A* Water-operated automatic choke
An example of an exception, the 40DCOE in later Alfa use is neither die-cast or equipped with an electric choke. The *E* indicates a trapezoid mounting bolt pattern instead of the rectangular one of the DCO.
or
There may be three, as well as two throats, in a Weber IDA, and there is no choke at all.
Any number after the letters denotes a variation of the basic type, to date there are 10 known variations of the 45DCOE.









_Braden, Pat. Weber Carburetors. HPBooks, 1988_


----------



## OnTheRunDCI (Jan 24, 2004)

*Re: (Mk2enthusiast)*

So is there a list of what I'll need to do dual carbs on this?
Car was 79 diesel rabbit
Have 2L16V motor
Have 84 GTi gas tank (Not sure if I can or cannot use it)


----------



## orlandoperformancevw (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (2L Bunny)*

you can get parts for dellortos at eurocarb uk online .


----------



## vdubspeed (Jul 19, 2002)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (orlandoperformancevw)*

I have some stuff around the shop and I'm trying to make a running vehicle out of it.
engine - low mileage 1.7L
carb - dellorto 40 drla downdraft.
After reading the FAQ I gathered that I should stick to a factory ignition module/hall sensor distributor. But then I have the vacuum advance just always open. Will the advance still be okay?
Also..are there any choke options available for the drla besides the gas pedal?
I just ordered a carb rebuild kit and the dellorto techbook from cb peformance so I will probably answer some of these questions shortly.
edit: 1 more question. I know the12for12 recommends having a carter p4070 electric fuel pump but will the stock mechanical fuel pump be adequate? I'm not looking for power...just to make it a driver.
Thanks, 
Jason


_Modified by vdubspeed at 2:41 PM 3-5-2006_


----------



## jschlappi82 (Jan 9, 2004)

I have an '88 1.8 16v KR engine in my rocco, with ITB's (and CIS, i know...) and i still have the std ignition system. Hall-sensor, ignition box. I connected my vacuum advance to the inlet by 4 little plugs. I now have it running on 21 degrees timing, 44° max. 
If i set the timing to 8 or 10 degrees (as supposed) my engine wont start at cold.
Anyone have a suggestion?


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Big CADDY)*

Nevermind. 
GOt the info myself:
Pierce Manifold and Pierce's waterneck.
Nice pieces. Great guys to do business with.


----------



## vdubmike2 (Sep 21, 2004)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Big CADDY)*

so i get rid of the factory pump under the passenger side then put the carter 4070 pump in its place and keep the in take transfer pump and fueling for carbs is done?


----------



## Mk2enthusiast (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (vdubmike2)*

with a regulator and filter in for good measure you're all set!


----------



## vdubmike2 (Sep 21, 2004)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Mk2enthusiast)*

i thought it says you dont use a regulator with the carter pump that it is set up already for the right psi?


----------



## Mk2enthusiast (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (vdubmike2)*

now that you say that, I'm not sure about the carter pump in particular, but I would use a regulator regardless


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Mk2enthusiast)*

I don't have a regulator with my carter pump setup and it runs....... still fine tuning, but it runs.

Edited post: i have since installed a Holly regulator and valve. made no difference.


_Modified by Big CADDY at 11:42 PM 11-10-2006_


----------



## MoGtheMooGle (May 14, 2005)

*Re: (FastLapRSII)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FastLapRSII* »_Seems like a high volume/low pressure pump to me.
Glad to hear someone has tried this!

yes. I've done it on my GTI. Low pressure/high volume is the way to go.


----------



## jaydubr (Apr 4, 2006)

hey guys i have a 83 16v swap with 45 dcoe's the problem is this i try to sync them and either im doing it wrong or im a dumbass? one carb sux 7 and the other 10 can some 1 tell me how 2 adjust them. oh yeah im running 180corrector, f2 e tubes 165 mains.


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (jaydubr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jaydubr* »_hey guys i have a 83 16v swap with 45 dcoe's the problem is this i try to sync them and either im doing it wrong or im a dumbass? one carb sux 7 and the other 10 can some 1 tell me how 2 adjust them. oh yeah im running 180corrector, f2 e tubes 165 mains.

Any symtoms other then different air flow readings? missing, spitting?

My 16v swap seems to pull more air on the left (facing the car) carb so I set the main idle speed screw all the way out then use the inspection holes to line up the right carb using the sync adjustment screw then adjust the main speed screw and go from there.


----------



## jaydubr (Apr 4, 2006)

pops outta exaust at about 3500 rpm .


----------



## Mk2enthusiast (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: (jaydubr)*

Wiring the Factory tachometer
You can pull off the tach output signal when using an MSD 6AL, depending on the year of the car and the function of the tach, wiring the output strait into the tach's source wire will work, like on older rabbits.
For voltage driven tachs like mine for example, 92 GTI 16v CE2 cluster, MSD PN 8920 Tach Adapter wires in easy and works great.


----------



## vwgareth (Oct 7, 2006)

*Re: (Mk2enthusiast)*

hey i have a golf mk 2 1.6 driver 1991! im looking at geting the most out of the engine and i have been told to go for a twin weber 45 carb! but i dont have a clue







and i dont no if it will even fit! so does any one have any ideas? cheers gareth


----------



## SilverSLine (Aug 13, 2006)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*

A MSD box will hook up to a magnetic pick up distributor, but what about the hall effect senders in VW distributors? Anyone able to do this without using the stock ECM or Ign. control unit?


----------



## Mk2enthusiast (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (SilverSLine)*

you need the ICM to boost the signal from the hall effect, it is an amplifier.


----------



## SilverSLine (Aug 13, 2006)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Mk2enthusiast)*

Thanks for the info. I have a 91 and am trying to eliminate the Motronic harness and ECM. Do any years have ICM's that plug directly into the distributor? I want to keep it as simple as possible.


----------



## aircooled traitor (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*

buy this here($61): http://store.summitracing.com/...w=sku

_Quote, originally posted by *the12for12* »_
We ONLY use the Carter Rotary pumps. They are High Volume (60-70 GPH) but only 4 psi. This is PERFECT for all Weber applications from a Single 32/36 DGV on a Truck, Jeep or Car to a Triple Sidedraft setup on a Road Race car making 300 HP...This pump DOES NOT and SHOULD NOT use a Pressure Regulator for any reason. That is why we use it....
















*Carter 4070 Fuel pump with Mounting Bracket *


----------



## Lowjack (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (aircooled traitor)*

ABF water outlet part number
037 121 132 j
water outlet on front of head that gets in the way


----------



## mark memory (May 12, 2005)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*

What other carbs can be used? Some mikunis or delltoros? And what size? Should they be around the 40-45mm range and side drafts?


----------



## MoGtheMooGle (May 14, 2005)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (mark memory)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mark memory* »_What other carbs can be used? Some mikunis or delltoros? And what size? Should they be around the 40-45mm range and side drafts?

16v's require sidedrafts, 8v's require downdrafts. typical carbs used on VW's are either Weber's or Dellorto's. a lot of people reccommend the Webers because you can still get parts for them, and I would agree with that statement. I haven't seen any carbs much bigger than the range of 40-45mm.
I used the Dellorto's, and was really impressed with them.


----------



## g60manny (Feb 6, 2006)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (MoGtheMooGle)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MoGtheMooGle* »_
16v's require sidedrafts, 8v's require downdrafts. typical carbs used on VW's are either Weber's or Dellorto's. a lot of people reccommend the Webers because you can still get parts for them, and I would agree with that statement. I haven't seen any carbs much bigger than the range of 40-45mm.
I used the Dellorto's, and was really impressed with them.

sent im http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 2L Bunny (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (MoGtheMooGle)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MoGtheMooGle* »_
16v's require sidedrafts, 8v's require downdrafts. 

Just a correction, 8V's can use sidedrafts just like 16V's. Downdrafts are usually used in factory carb type installations. for performance sidedrafts are the way to go when carbs are concerned on a watercooled VW motor


----------



## MoGtheMooGle (May 14, 2005)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (2L Bunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2L Bunny* »_
Just a correction, 8V's can use sidedrafts just like 16V's. Downdrafts are usually used in factory carb type installations. for performance sidedrafts are the way to go when carbs are concerned on a watercooled VW motor

for an 8v to use a sidedraft setup, wouldn't you be talking about a x-flow motor where the intake is on the front and the exhaust is on the back? otherwise, if you were mounting carbs on a rear-mounted intake setup, you would have to fab up a manifold so that the carbs would be laying flat.
if the sidedraft carbs aren't sitting level, the fuel would flow down the venturis incorrectly.


----------



## Mk2enthusiast (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (MoGtheMooGle)*

Many manifolds exist for counterflow 8v heads and have been used for years. Also, sidedrafts can function properly at a maximum angle of 7 degrees above horizontal.


----------



## 2L Bunny (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Mk2enthusiast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mk2enthusiast* »_Many manifolds exist for counterflow 8v heads and have been used for years. Also, sidedrafts can function properly at a maximum angle of 7 degrees above horizontal.

Yup, I've got a set of Dellorto sidedrafts on my Race rabbit with a counterflow 8V. If you're ever up in Corvallis you're welcome to take a look.


----------



## Dellorto (Jan 16, 2007)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (g60manny)*

You can get parts for the dellortos from the factory in italy if you are prepared to pay some money.


----------



## Red Robertson (Oct 20, 2003)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Dellorto)*

when you guys say that you keep the intank pump as well are you:
1- using only the oem intank pump?
2- Using the carter pump and the intank (wired up and pumping)
3- Using the carter pump only and just leavign the intank pump in the tank and using it as a pickup only for the carter?
Also on aside note about msd, i have a 6al box, can i either
1- use my factory digifant dist. with the icm as pictured in this thread
2- use and older vacuum advance distributer and wire it straight up to the msd box?
thanks Andy


----------



## Mk2enthusiast (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Red Robertson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Red Robertson* »_when you guys say that you keep the intank pump as well are you:
1- using only the oem intank pump?
2- Using the carter pump and the intank (wired up and pumping)
3- Using the carter pump only and just leavign the intank pump in the tank and using it as a pickup only for the carter?
Also on aside note about msd, i have a 6al box, can i either
1- use my factory digifant dist. with the icm as pictured in this thread
2- use and older vacuum advance distributer and wire it straight up to the msd box?
thanks Andy

2/3 are the same but people have done all those fuel configurations with success (in conjunction with a regulator).
If using the stock distributor, the icm only amplifies the signal from the hall effect, allowing a timing comupter (e.g. MSD PN 8980) to deliver an advance curve.


----------



## Red Robertson (Oct 20, 2003)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Mk2enthusiast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mk2enthusiast* »_
If using the stock distributor, the icm only amplifies the signal from the hall effect, allowing a timing comupter (e.g. MSD PN 8980) to deliver an advance curve.

do you think the 8980 would be the best bet? i liked the idea of the adjustable timing controller pn 8680 (knob on the dash) but does it deliver a curve as well or just a straight adjustment?
would the programable timing controller (pn 8981) be of any benifit over the fixed curve?
but would a vacuum advance dist. provide an equivlant curve?


----------



## der hare (Oct 27, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Red Robertson)*

What throttle cable is used when running dcoe on a counterflow 8v?
I'm guessing stock carbuerated throttle cable?
Anyone have a good source for the metal air cleaners for a dcoe setup?


----------



## Red Robertson (Oct 20, 2003)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (der hare)*


_Quote, originally posted by *der hare* »_What throttle cable is used when running dcoe on a counterflow 8v?
I'm guessing stock carbuerated throttle cable?
Anyone have a good source for the metal air cleaners for a dcoe setup?

K&N has them listed on their website


----------



## vdub4life_89 (Dec 2, 2003)

WOW...good info.....well im about to jump feet 1st into the carb world.....i have put a 8v together with a set of solex carbs what would i need to know if i pulled my stock 83 rabbit motor and put this built 8v in??? do i need diff. fuel pump....ect.??? im me please if you have the time and thanks agian guys for all the info
Luke


----------



## Mk2enthusiast (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Red Robertson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Red Robertson* »_do you think the 8980 would be the best bet? i liked the idea of the adjustable timing controller pn 8680 (knob on the dash) but does it deliver a curve as well or just a straight adjustment?
would the programable timing controller (pn 8981) be of any benifit over the fixed curve?
but would a vacuum advance dist. provide an equivlant curve? 

All the MSD boxes are fairly equivilent, adjustablity within 20 degrees of your mechanically set full advance. The programmable (8981) merely allows adjustment in the slope of advance and initial timing within, again, 20 degrees of your mechanical set.








Digging around on here, the net, or in a Bentley you should find the curve of an OEM vaccum advance or mechanical advance distributor. I know people have used one from a Saab as well.
If you're serious about dialing in your own ignition curve, the best route would be a distributorless ignition system like Electromotive for example.
Based on this and your budget you should be able to settle on something http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## OnTheRunDCI (Jan 24, 2004)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Mk2enthusiast)*

So much great info my head is spinning, trying to read as much as possible and have as few questions as possible. Now I'm in need of beer and it's raining ice outside.


----------



## OnTheRunDCI (Jan 24, 2004)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (OnTheRunDCI)*

Ok, question. 
It says the carter feul pump needs no fuel pressure regulator but then it suggests one? Which is it, no fpr or with fpr?


----------



## Red Robertson (Oct 20, 2003)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (OnTheRunDCI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OnTheRunDCI* »_Ok, question. 
It says the carter feul pump needs no fuel pressure regulator but then it suggests one? Which is it, no fpr or with fpr?

I would suggest one, people say its not needed because the max psi rating of the carter pump should not hurt most carbs, but if yould always like constant Fuel pressure, id get a regulator


----------



## OnTheRunDCI (Jan 24, 2004)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Red Robertson)*

Thanks, that's what I thought. Just something to make it work bettah.


----------



## lehr leistung (Mar 8, 2003)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (OnTheRunDCI)*

i recently put a holley 1-4 reg set to 3.5 on mine, i was getting too much fuel in the bowls with just the carter...


----------



## VWCR8ZY (May 10, 2006)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (lehr leistung)*

I am not running a regulator with my set-up, but will be adding one to see if it works.
btw: 1.8 12.5 comp, 270cam, holley 350 with #57 jets, carter pump.
I will update and let you know if anything gets better or worse. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## PNW_Dubbin_Ain't_Easy (May 26, 2005)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (VWCR8ZY)*

ok guys help me out. Im runnin and 8v with a 2 barrol down draft weber. I have everything hooked up but the throttle cable can i see some pics of how you guys have hooked yours up? also anyone want a wiring question that is killin me>? thanks for your time


----------



## PNW_Dubbin_Ain't_Easy (May 26, 2005)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (PNW_Dubbin_Ain't_Easy)*

thought of another question... Where does the wire on the elec choke goto?? the one on the front of the carb?


----------



## vee_dubb_gti (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (PNW_Dubbin_Ain't_Easy)*

the wire goes to 12v key on. (off the coil) if you wnat to see a pic. look in my sig. the one with the webber for sale. that should have a pic of my old one installed.i know it sounds getto, but i used some big nuts as spacers. if you wnat some better pics, let my know.


----------



## PNW_Dubbin_Ain't_Easy (May 26, 2005)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (vee_dubb_gti)*

ya if you could post another pic or 2 of the set up that would be great and thanks for the choke question. now if I could get the damn thing to turn over i'd throw a party!!!


----------



## Mike Ngo (Sep 7, 2002)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (SilverSLine)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SilverSLine* »_Thanks for the info. I have a 91 and am trying to eliminate the Motronic harness and ECM. Do any years have ICM's that plug directly into the distributor? I want to keep it as simple as possible. 

any answers?


----------



## Cynical 1 (Jan 23, 2003)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Mike Ngo)*

my 81 rocco has a direct-to-distributor icm. may try that model.


----------



## OnTheRunDCI (Jan 24, 2004)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (2L Bunny)*

Running a 2L 16V with dual weber 45's and have the carter pump. Which fuel filter should I run? I've heard of a 3 port filter than I can run the nipple on the tank that was for the return line to instead of capping off that nipple.


----------



## mofoco (Dec 6, 2006)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (OnTheRunDCI)*

what about blockin off the frigin injectors how to?


----------



## 2L Bunny (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (OnTheRunDCI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OnTheRunDCI* »_Running a 2L 16V with dual weber 45's and have the carter pump. Which fuel filter should I run? I've heard of a 3 port filter than I can run the nipple on the tank that was for the return line to instead of capping off that nipple. 

I use a ~'89 Maxima fuel filter. It has 5/16 (8mm) nipples on both sides.


----------



## Cynical 1 (Jan 23, 2003)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (mofoco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mofoco* »_what about blockin off the frigin injectors how to?

cheap and dirty - use dimes and some high temp silicone in each injector port. 
or, go buy 4 trans drain plugs from the dealer and screw them in.


----------



## Mike Ngo (Sep 7, 2002)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Cynical 1)*


----------



## 6thGearGLIGuy (Jul 25, 2005)

I got a couple questions about my carb set up
-the carter 4070 pump i got didnt come with any wire harness, where can i get some wires that will hook up to the terminals on the pump?
-I plan on running new fuel lines what size should i go?
-I wanna run a fpr, how much pressure is good for dellorto 40s? 
Thanks very the help


----------



## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: (6thGearGLIGuy)*

Concerning *Flat Slide Motorcycle carbs* 
......to be continued

_Quote, originally posted by *Jeprli* »_Flat slide main jets only come into action at top quarter of throttle, midrange is controlled by the size and position of needle(you move a clip on the needle to a different position, upwards leaner, downwards richer, it basically controls when the main jet will kick in) and for first half of throttle it's all in the a/f mixture screw. If engine is running too rich with these carbs, it will bog down at lets say 4000rpm, if it's too lean it will let you know a lot sooner as it will have hard time starting. These type of carbs use very low fuel pressure as most are gravity fed so don't go crazy with pressure 2-3 psi the most. Oh and there is the float bowl which has a fork that controls these floats, you can bend that tab and allow more fuel into the bowl, but that is only for those who really know what they're doing. Also adding a little bit of high quality 2 stroke oil as a premix to your tank will keep flatslides smooth , and keep them from seizing(16:1-10:1 premix ratio). Balance and lighten your engines when using these as they rev up a lot quicker than fuel injected motor. These are practically impossible to synchronize, so the best you can do is have each one set exactly the same. I'll be doing this for my winter project, using a 2l aba motor with most probably yamaha R1 slides.

All additional info IM the original quoter, Udig?


----------



## chopWet (May 10, 2003)

yep we need more on bike carbs, I have two magazine articles that give an overview of the conversion, if someone could host them they could be put up for refrence....


----------



## Jeprli (Apr 24, 2006)

*Re: (chopWet)*

As for that premix ratio, use between 75:1 - 100:1. I made a mistake, sorry.


----------



## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: (chopWet)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chopWet* »_yep we need more on bike carbs, I have two magazine articles that give an overview of the conversion, if someone could host them they could be put up for refrence....


























http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*

wiring in a 8980 timing computer and a 6A or 6AL. using a VW ICM\











_Modified by Big CADDY at 10:14 PM 1-29-2009_


----------



## bradford_ramage (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Big CADDY)*

i have a 2L 8v counterflow (rv head) im gonna run sidedraft from a cbr 900rr any extra info would be wasome thanks my only main concern now is my ignition comes from my digifant box and i need to know how im gonna get my spark these setups appear to be for a cis or cis-e box help on ignition


_Modified by bradford_ramage at 8:44 PM 9-21-2007_


----------



## GermanRob (Mar 1, 2007)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (bradford_ramage)*

okay, lets take this to the top with some real crazy idea's
I have recently acquired a mk2 8v along with a dual 40mm mukini carb setup and cam.... I really want to run nitrous with that setup and don't even know where to start.
12for12
I'm gonna need ur help on the carb side of this from A to Z, its gonna be rather ground breaking and a spare 8v motor has been donated for the cause to see what this will produce. I have some help from experienced tech's awaiting the neccessary info to install the carb setup. Just lay it out here for them and we'll be testing the nitrous grounds shortly there after.
Yes I said nitrous, everyone can keep their negative comments to themselves.


_Modified by GermanRob at 11:22 PM 10-10-2007_


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (GermanRob)*

I too have a nitrous setup I was thinking of putting on mine.


----------



## jetta1986 (Dec 27, 2004)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Big CADDY)*

hey guys does any one here know how to tune a set of Dellorto 40mm carbs ive got em on a 2.0 x flow it rips all the way till 4th gear and after that it wants to almost die out


----------



## ANDYCABBYRH (Aug 5, 2003)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Big CADDY)*

can the car run with the stock bosh coil, dizzy and no msd or ICM?


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (ANDYCABBYRH)*

no. but wiring in a ICM is simple.


----------



## DriVeWaY2L16V (Dec 26, 2001)

*Re: (RaceJetta)*

I have a 92 16v gti. And a pair of 45dcoe's, now since i have no ignition control unit. Can i just use a MSD6AL with my factory computer and Dizzy? Or will this not work? And what size fuel line are you using from the pump to the front?


_Modified by DriVeWaY2L16V at 1:49 AM 1-11-2008_


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (DriVeWaY2L16V)*

you can use one of the existing lines for fuel, swap out fuel pumps, run a regulator and filter and your good to go. no return needed with 4psi
use the factory dizzy and a MSD 6A or 6AL. you can add the 8990 timing computer for more advance also. the diagrams are above. The ignition control units are a dime a dozen in junk yards.


----------



## DriVeWaY2L16V (Dec 26, 2001)

*Re: (Big CADDY)*

Do i need to wire the Hal sender on the ICM to the one on my Dizzy or anything ? Or do i just add the ICM and i'm good.


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (DriVeWaY2L16V)*

just use the wiring diagram above. pretty simple.


----------



## ANDYCABBYRH (Aug 5, 2003)

*Re: (Big CADDY)*

does the ICM need to be ground it it self to the body or could it be mounted anywere? (it's usually mounted on that alum bracket to a metal bracket)


----------



## Mk2enthusiast (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: (ANDYCABBYRH)*

no mounted anywhere, the metal base carries no current


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (ANDYCABBYRH)*

It was also designed as a heat sink I think.


----------



## C LePoudre (Jan 19, 2005)

*Re: (Big CADDY)*

Stock coolant flange is interfering. Couple of cryptic things on the FAQ about this but I didn't see anything concrete. One mentioned ABF flange, another got a coolant flange from "Pierce". Any advice? 
Also, I'm assuming that if I move the alternator down to the AC mount that this will solve the interference issues...am I correct?


----------



## ANDYCABBYRH (Aug 5, 2003)

*Re: (C LePoudre)*

my vw ICM numbers go in or 1-7 not like the one shown in the picture above:
Pins
#1 green wire
#2 brown
#3 brown/white
#4 blk
#5 red/blk
#6 green/white
#7 empty
I'm using a 6AL+msd blaster coil+vw ICM but I need to wiring help. (16v with webers).


----------



## ANDYCABBYRH (Aug 5, 2003)

*Re: (ANDYCABBYRH)*

never mind I got it figure out
Thanks anyhow


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (ANDYCABBYRH)*

I need to correct it in the diagram. I have many people question about that. the ICM or plug has the pin outs on it. My illustration was designed to just go by the numbers, not the order. Just laid out to keep order and not have wires crossing wires to confuse more.


_Modified by Big CADDY at 5:49 PM 1-29-2008_


----------



## dave y (May 2, 2007)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*

I have an old ITC Scirocco 1.6 race car that came with a Weber 32/36 DFV carb. The engine would miss and cut out on right hand turns. It was a little rigged up so I bought a used DGV, rebuilt it and installed it. Then I had the same problem on Left handers. Tried all different kind of float level changes and couldn't correct it.
I picked up a Haynes/Weber manual and started to read from the beginning. In the instalation recommedations it states that the float bowl should face forward and the throlle plate shaft parralel with the crank shaft. This configuration is only possiable with the DFT. Early catalogs showed the kit from Weber used the 32 DFT but later aftermarket suppliers only show the 32/36 DFV.
Was there a design change to make the DFV suitable with a side mount float bowl? I have been able to locate good used DFT. Would that work better for a racing application under hard cornering? I'm afraid the 32 mm primary and secondary might be too small.
Just a couple more notes. I have dual fuel pumps and filters. The engine is highly modified to SCCA H/Production class limits. With the 9 inch wide slicks, it generates tremendious cornering forces. Keep in mind, I am only allowed a single down draft carb on a stock but ported manifold.
Dave Y.


----------



## dubbass33 (Jul 26, 2006)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (dave y)*

about how long would i take for a few people working together to put ITB's on a 16v?


----------



## nolangherity (Dec 22, 2005)

im trying to do a carb setup on my 1.7 liter 8 valve.
i was contemplating three setups.
1. set of 40mm motorcycle carbs.
2. a weber 32/36 down draft
3. a single weber 45
the car would likely just have a lightly port/ polished head (DIY) and a 288 TT cam with the heavier duty valve springs.
i dont want to "under carb" the car. id like it to flow free as possible. anyone have any input of what would work for this setup?
thanks


----------



## elias (Dec 4, 2005)

does the icm wired with the msd accomadate for the ignition advance? making big caddy's wiring diagram the only thing needed for wiring the ignition?
sorry if i missed worded anything im half awake


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (elias)*

The only advance with the MSD setup is a static advance set at the distributor. the timing computer doesn't advance the timing. it retards the signal 20* at idle and decreases the retard amount to 0* at 3000rpm. So if you want a 28* advance at 3000rpm+ you set your static timing to 8* at idle then as the motor revs to 3000rpms the timing computer will reduce the retarded timing bringing your timing to 28*.
I think I had to type that out so I could understand it..
What's listed in the diagram is everything you need and the proper wiring for it. remember that I haven't put all the wires from the ICM in order. don't go by the order. go by the numbers.
I hope this helps ya out.


----------



## nopaddle (Oct 21, 2007)

*Dellorto 45 sidedraft for sale*

I have a 45 dellorto sideraft carb for sale, the carb is in great shape and very clean, comes with a new chrome air cleaner and filter that never got around to being used.... $300


----------



## euro mk2 (Sep 19, 2006)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (mofoco)*

i hve just done a 16v conversion on webbers. we cant get it to fire up tho








we have fuel, a spark and everything is in time... is it necesary to have an msd or is there another way round it?


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (euro mk2)*

you can eliminate the MSD and use just the icm, 
I have a setup like that that I carry in my glove box so if anything happens, I just swap it out. You need to be careful of your timing advance then since there is no change to it. 
Without a bentley I am pretty sure wire 1 on the ICM would go to the Positive on the coil


----------



## elias (Dec 4, 2005)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Big CADDY)*

what is the best way to "incorporate" the icm to that harness? should i use the female part that plugs onto it or just soilder the wires directly to it?


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (elias)*

well, three of the wires go to the Hal Sender on the distributor. One goes to the Ground, one goes to Hot and one is the signal for the coil. so you don't have to really "incorporate" anything everythihng plugs in or connects except for the signal wire that you wire in with a connector of your choice..


----------



## ftwelder (Feb 27, 2008)

I have a 16V MC carb project going right now. I posted a pic of the manifold in progress in the 8V thread. I welded the injector slots in my heads, I also did a gasket match while I was in there. My pendent on my CNC smoked, when the new one arrives, I will post more pics of my manifold.


----------



## iceman2.0 (Mar 28, 2006)

*Re: (frankthewelder)*


_Quote, originally posted by *frankthewelder* »_I have a 16V MC carb project going right now. I posted a pic of the manifold in progress in the 8V thread. I welded the injector slots in my heads, I also did a gasket match while I was in there. My pendent on my CNC smoked, when the new one arrives, I will post more pics of my manifold. 

kool. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## iceman2.0 (Mar 28, 2006)

*Re: (iceman2.0)*

What about venting the gas tank?
I was looking for a vented gas cap, do these exist?


----------



## iceman2.0 (Mar 28, 2006)

*Re: (iceman2.0)*

Can we use the wiring diagram with out the timing control unit?
Or is that necessary? My mech. told me that the facet stye pumps work fine, older carbed BMW's came with them from the factory?


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (iceman2.0)*

you can use it without the timing computer, but you'll be stuck with a static setup. this will work, but once you start advanceing the timing, the harder it will be to start the engine. That's what is nice about the timing computer. it brings the timing back to about stock advance at idle.


----------



## iceman2.0 (Mar 28, 2006)

*Re: (Big CADDY)*

What about the pump?
And I just got RickRolled..nice


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (iceman2.0)*









the facet pumps can work, but double check the pressue readings to not go crazy with fuel pressure. or too little
the price of the facet pumps is about the same as a carter 4070 which is tried and true for the carb setups.


----------



## SpoolinJetta18T (Jul 30, 2004)

ok im ready to do the conversion i have the manifold and new webers 40 DCOEs i have the 4070 fuel pump gaskets and lines what else do i need to get this done this is going in a 8v.....


----------



## keithrash (Aug 12, 2001)

*Re: (SpoolinJetta18T)*

i'm at the same stage, carbs, fuel pump. do we need to modify the ignition?


----------



## JTiberiVR6 (Jan 31, 2002)

*Re: (keithrash)*

Just recommendations off the top of my head: 
Timing & spark control, slimline fan & radiator, oil breather, modified alternator setup for carb & manifold clearances.


----------



## crazy16v (Feb 12, 2005)

*Re: (JTiberiVR6)*

Question on fuel pump. with out the ecu i get no ground at the fuel pump realy. do i just ground to the chassis . willl it be on anytime the ignition is on?i mean the small pin on the relay. not sure if it 86 or 85?how can i get it to do like oe and run for alittle then wait to run when cranked?its getting closer. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## iceman2.0 (Mar 28, 2006)

*Re: (RaceJetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RaceJetta* »_That's the ignitor. That little black thing right under the rain tray on the driver's side.
Wire the dizzy to the ignitor, then wire in the MSD between the ignitor and the coil. You need the ignitor because the MSD cannot trigger off the OEM hall sender in the dizzy. Then you will likely need a MSD 8980 timing computer to give your car some low rpm retard. Set the mechanical timing to 30-32 deg BTDC, and then the MSD 8980 will retard it 20 degrees at idle so that it starts and runs easier.
Good luck.

I have an unmarked flywheel how do i set my static timing to 30-32° ?
i dont wanna put a degree wheeel on cuz the tranny and engine are one ..in the car.....


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (iceman2.0)*

get a timing light that you can adjust.


----------



## crazy16v (Feb 12, 2005)

*Re: (Big CADDY)*

Question. if i set the timing is set to 30-32degrees. how hard will it be to start in the morning? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Mk2enthusiast (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: (crazy16v)*

not at all, I run 35 degrees and it'll start in the dead of cold. 
You can crank the motor to TDC then remove the inspection hole cover and make a mark with white marker etc. Then you'll spot that using a light http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: (Mk2enthusiast)*

http://www.dellorto.it/home.asp


----------



## SpoolinJetta18T (Jul 30, 2004)

ok i have a 1983 rabbit with an 8v, the engine is fully build .40 over forged piston rods, 280 cam etc etc.....im about to do the weber conversion i have a set of NEW 40dcoe here are my Q's 
1. where can i get a cap or screw to plug the CIS injector.
2. do i really need the MSD or can i get by w/o it for now.
3. is it wise to cover the header with that exhaust cloth to keep the heat off the carbs?


----------



## Dirty Jersey (Jan 11, 2007)

*Re: (SpoolinJetta18T)*

Im looking for a carb setup for my 97 gti 2.0 8v does anyone have one thanks


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (Dirty Jersey)*

Here is a great site that really explains things about weber 45 carbs.
every other site is a copy of what was posted in the begining of this list. which is fine but it doesn't really explain it clearly.
http://www.tjwakeman.net/TR/WeberDCOEinfo.htm


----------



## 2mAn (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: (Big CADDY)*

tons of good info here, lots of repeat questions though!







just* read before you post * people! i just did, it doesnt take that long















anyone know where to get a mikuni rebuild kit? ive got a set of mikuni 35s (i think) and i might use em soon. havent had any luck searching for em.


----------



## SpoolinJetta18T (Jul 30, 2004)

ok i got the car running however is running RICH. also what do i do with the return line from the CIS. and how do i adjust the floats? thank you guys


_Modified by SpoolinJetta18T at 12:21 AM 10-24-2008_


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (SpoolinJetta18T)*

round floats or square?
Dual 40 webers right?


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (Big CADDY)*

the return line you can just plug up on the tank and pull it out. That is if you are using a low pressure pump.


----------



## SpoolinJetta18T (Jul 30, 2004)

*Re: (Big CADDY)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Big CADDY* »_the return line you can just plug up on the tank and pull it out. That is if you are using a low pressure pump.

yes im running a carter pump so ill plug it this weekend... as far as the floats i really dont know but they are 40dcoe webers


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (SpoolinJetta18T)*

for 40s
DCOE spec = 1.14 inch (29mm+4.5mm). 
If the depth is NOT correct, the top plate of the carburetor must be removed. Carefully bend the tab on the float assembly that touches the needle valve. Reassemble and test the float level as before.
copied from:
http://www.teglerizer.com/dcoe/tweakingdcoes.htm


----------



## RedRocketMk2 (Oct 1, 2006)

*Re: (Big CADDY)*

great info.
Any pictures of some of your finished setups?
Im running 45 webers on my 2l 16v. 
And am planning on "cleaning" up my engine bay. ideas as to mount fuel pump, msd ignition etc. etc. ??
Also i plan on doing some internal work if not atleast head work. how mildly or majorly built are some of your motors? Dyno numbers??
Thanks before hand guys everything is helpful http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (RedRocketMk2)*

Esher has a pretty slick mouting area for the MSD stuff. He made a rack behind the glove box.


----------



## SpoolinJetta18T (Jul 30, 2004)

*Re: (RedRocketMk2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RedRocketMk2* »_great info.
Any pictures of some of your finished setups?
Im running 45 webers on my 2l 16v. 
And am planning on "cleaning" up my engine bay. ideas as to mount fuel pump, msd ignition etc. etc. ??
Also i plan on doing some internal work if not atleast head work. how mildly or majorly built are some of your motors? Dyno numbers??
Thanks before hand guys everything is helpful http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

















Heres mine and my Engine Specs:
1.8Lt, bored .040 
82mm pistons 
Head shaved .010 
Block decked .025 
280 degree Schrick cam 
Hi-Rev valve springs 
Weber single bore throttle body 
Engine rebuilt at Ron's Parts at approximately 110,000 miles (RPIequipped.com) 
Engine blueprinted by Techtonics 
Battery removed from under hood, placed in enclosure behind passenger seat for better weight distribution 
Transmission and Clutch Assembly 
210mm Clutch


----------



## Justin 123 (Apr 11, 2005)

*FV-QR*

How have you guys gone about wiring up your fuel pumps? I currently have Motronic which grounds the pump through the ecu, but I know older cars relay the fuel pump from the ignition coil and I'd like a setup like that rather than wiring up a switch or something.
Also did you just wire the in-tank pump and the new low pressure pump in parallel?


----------



## SpoolinJetta18T (Jul 30, 2004)

i have mine wired up to come on when the car is turned on.


----------



## Justin 123 (Apr 11, 2005)

*FV-QR*

What about when the key is in the start position? Can the pump prime?


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (Justin 123)*

Mine turns on as soon as I turn the key. I just ran a wire back to the pump and grounded it to the body.
I also put an inline switch under the dash to turn it off if I wanted. It's handy to have that.


----------



## Justin 123 (Apr 11, 2005)

*FV-QR*

So you just replaced the ground-to-ecu and straight up grounded it and it worked fine? Any diagrams? Thanks guys!


----------



## SpoolinJetta18T (Jul 30, 2004)

i don't have an ECU so i don't have to worry about it...lol


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (Justin 123)*

I don't have an ECU either, but I think it just grounds to it for a rev limiter.
come out of your fuse panel with a switched 12V line and connect it to the pos side of the pump. out of the neg side to a ground. put a switch in line for safety and control of the pump if you want. it makes for a good theft device too.


----------



## SpoolinJetta18T (Jul 30, 2004)

^ thats how i did mine


----------



## Justin 123 (Apr 11, 2005)

*FV-QR*

No relay, just switched power to both pumps? Do you get enough pressure when the switch is in the start position?


----------



## chase223 (Sep 26, 2007)

Gentlemen-
I've read 30+ pages of posts here, and my head is going to explode!
I am building a track only car as a school project. 86 GTI, 1.8l. As the car was purchased w/o fuel injection or a distributor, I am going carb(s), MSD, Carter, etc. I am very close to having the car gutted but have a question re: ignition and electronics. I've seen the wiring diagram using the timing computer and the stock ICM, and understand that I may need the ICM to amplify the hall signal, but I would really like to tear all that mess out - ICM, knock box, etc. - and start from scratch. 
I'm looking to some assistance from someone that has successfully done this! If you're willing to guide me through the process, shoot me an email to chaseatchaseoconnordotcom. I will reply with my phone and you can contact me at your convenience.
Thank you.


----------



## JTiberiVR6 (Jan 31, 2002)

*Re: (chase223)*

A holiday bump. 
I'm saving up to buy a few more items to buy from Pierce. 
For now, it's fuel lines and some electrical work...


----------



## SpoolinJetta18T (Jul 30, 2004)

^^^ I went the extra mile and did all my fuel lines, with braided lines, Racing fitings and fabrication cost me 75.00..... good luck post pics man!!!!!! IMO when it comes to fuel and electric stuff be sure you dont go cheap you might regret it later....












_Modified by SpoolinJetta18T at 1:39 PM 12-19-2008_


----------



## AchtungA3 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Big CADDY)*

Got another electrical/ignition question for you fine folks:
Alright, here's my setup. OBD1 ABA in a MKIII. Running Weber 45s with an MSD 6AL and Blaster 2. What kind of spark plugs and wires will benefit from these components? I've read that running lower resistance wires will work best for a carbed setup, so what brands/features should I look for when choosing a plug and wire?


----------



## Mk2enthusiast (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (AchtungA3)*

Nology makes a nice set of shielded and individually grounded wires.
As for plugs, I've run Bosch Platinums in the past with good results, I've NEVER had luck with the 4 prong garbage. They have always detiorated and broken off! Both in a 16v and my audi 2.8. Currently I run NGK iridiums which were a little more expensive, but have been awesome and outlasted the Bosch single prongs.


----------



## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

I just went through all of this before posting... Good read!
I have a Mk1 Rocco, that will inherit a 9a in spring... 
Got a pair of DCOE40's, a manifold from Pierce, a Holley pressure regulator 12-803 , the carbs are getting the full rebuild & cleaning as I write this, but I have a problem with the ignition side:
All that I could read, there are 4 basic choices:
1) Use the CIS-e set up with knock sensor, but only use the ignition part . Intersting, as the OEM components, look that they are the most reliable ones... And the budget can be pretty low for an acceptable performance, and VW designed advance curve.
2) MSD 6A(L) with the OEM Widget on the rain tray... (for the hall sender)
Simple set up, but the advance curve, looks like its compromised. 
3) MSD 6A(L) with widget & 8620/8621
Now we are starting to look at too many components to my liking... & advance is fully programmable?
4) Electomotive type distributorless ignition ... Tasty!!! 
Does anyone have experience with the new XDI ?
I am REALLY intersted in this kit (under $1K), but I haven't seen any VW with them on...
Were the hell, do you put the geared wheel sender?
It looks like this set up is the Shizzit, though!
please chime in, as I might have overseen some options for ignition...
Cheers Fred


----------



## mudanddust (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: (Big CADDY)*

do you know if msd makes a timing computer that factors in load of the engine, vac?


----------



## mudanddust (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: (mudanddust)*

anyone?


----------



## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: (mudanddust)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mudanddust* »_anyone?
email them?


----------



## RTCustomz (Dec 20, 2004)

*Re: (SpoolinJetta18T)*

how do you wire your engine uo with carbs without hte ecu? that i dont get and im putting togehter a 2.0 ABA 16v engine. I want to carb or ITB it. Which should i do and how do you rig up the motor without an ecu?


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (mudanddust)*

I have revised the diagram to help a little. I color coded the wires from the ICM plus put each wire in order. I have also added a how to for the ignition timing for those who may have questions
good luck


----------



## iceman2.0 (Mar 28, 2006)

*Re: (Big CADDY)*

thank you holy man. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## junn (May 6, 2008)

*Re: (iceman2.0)*

im looking to buy som mikunis 45 and a friend mecanic told me that parts for mikunis where hard to find and costly what you guys think i should do?


----------



## mudanddust (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: (junn)*

run bike carbs


----------



## mudanddust (Oct 24, 2007)

*Re: (junn)*

run bike carbs; cheaper and require less tuning


----------



## fredybender (Nov 18, 2008)

Webers are so much more than "cheap to run" but you do have a point, but nothing compared to the "Whooo ahhhh" of the euro carb...
Just my 0.02$


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

Found a nice diagram that lays out the basics of the way the jets/air correctors/emulsion tubes work together. There is a bit more to it than this, but this will help with getting the basics of carb tuning down pat http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif.


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (B4S)*

sweet image. good way to explain it better. If you really want your brain to explode, go to the yahoo group sidedraft central. keith is mental about carbs. This guy can diagnose anything, but in his language which I still don't understand. very helpful site.


_Modified by Big CADDY at 10:01 PM 3-31-2009_


----------



## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

*FV-QR*

Yeah, I've been reading sidedraft central for a while now...and still kinda below that guy's level of info, lol.


----------



## the12for12 (Jul 21, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Big CADDY)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Big CADDY* »_sweet image. good way to explain it better. If you really want your brain to explode, go to the yahoo group sidedraft central. keith is mental about carbs. This guy can diagnose anything, but in his language which I still don't understand. very helpful site.
_Modified by Big CADDY at 10:01 PM 3-31-2009_


http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
IM me your email and I'll send you an invite


----------



## BLONJON (Apr 24, 2009)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*

LOOKING FOR SOMEONE IN THE VEGAS AREA TO FINE TUNE MY 45DCOE'S. ANY IDEAS?


----------



## zcxerxes (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (BLONJON)*

sooo......how do you guys fight the heat best in your carbs on a counterflow 8v. i'm running dcoe 40's on a aba/jh in my 64 notchback and the heat is an issue back under the bonnet. as far as i can guess the carbs got so hot today that i lost a gasket and started losing fuel all over my header.

this is all a new setup to the car and i'm slowly working through my issues and this made itself batter up after i got the cooling under wraps.


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (zcxerxes)*

there is a plate you can mount to the base of them to block direct heat, but i think it's a home made thing. 
got any pics of the setup in the notch?


----------



## Mk2enthusiast (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Big CADDY)*

Header wrap makes a huge difference. Here are the plates Tom mentioned:


----------



## zcxerxes (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Big CADDY)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Big CADDY* »_there is a plate you can mount to the base of them to block direct heat, but i think it's a home made thing. 
got any pics of the setup in the notch?
















yes i know there's ins't an upper rad hose this picture was from when i was getting all the brackets made for everything.
i've already got those plates and the header is all wrapped up tight. any other options?
it's a mk4 2.0 manifold that i ground the piss out of to mate with the counterflow head then hacked up the downpipe to make parts for the rest of the exhaust. 



_Modified by zcxerxes at 5:38 PM 5-3-2009_


----------



## Mk2enthusiast (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (zcxerxes)*

that's a tough setup for airflow, very cool though!! I'd look to block off the whole area under the carbs somehow and/or another small electric fan on that side to promote air movement. An airbox for the carbs might help avoid other problems with IATs.


----------



## zcxerxes (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Mk2enthusiast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mk2enthusiast* »_that's a tough setup for airflow, very cool though!! 

thanks. there were a few issues that needed worked through to get it this far and i'm sure there are a few more in my future before i can drive it readily. i didn't think that the heat would be this big of an issue with the carbs as other people run these on counterflow heads and i didn't find that many issues with them when i searched. i've got a couple sheets of phelonic at work and am contemplating making a heat sheild out of that but the header might actually get hot enough to burn that. so i guess there's only one way to find out. can you wrap more than one layer of header wrap without any issues?


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (zcxerxes)*

perfect fix: swap it out for a 16v


----------



## Shawn M. (Oct 15, 2002)

im so glad i found this thread, thank you too all who have added. Im in the process of swapping in a holley 2 barrel and modded oem carb intake onto my 84cabriolet project. i need to go back and read before I ask questions but this is so exciting!


----------



## zcxerxes (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Big CADDY)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Big CADDY* »_perfect fix: swap it out for a 16v









the only thing i'd swap it out for right now would be an aba head and a draw through turbo. i've already got a carb prepped for that and a head to swap in just wannt try to get this working first.


----------



## Y00D00DZ (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (zcxerxes)*

ok so i have a few questions about the fuel pump. 
1. what do you do with the old fuel pump thats in the gas tank?
2. is the new fuel pump such as the Carter electronic? 
3. could you get away with running the stock in tank fuel pump and run the fuel through a fuel like this...
http://www.thehotrodcompany.co...=1290
#3 might be a dumb question but its really something thats been on my mind. 
also in the diagram that is posted for the MSD ignition, is there anything that hooks to the distributor? as far as wires go?




_Modified by Y00D00DZ at 2:54 PM 5-11-2009_


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Y00D00DZ)*

Some have used the intank pump for the carbs. worth a shot.
the carter pump is 12v 
In the diagram the wires 5,6,3 go to the Hal sender on the distributor.


----------



## Y00D00DZ (Apr 1, 2008)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Big CADDY)*

think that fuel block will work if i test how much psi the stock pump is putting out before and after the block. its kind of old fashion but who knows haha
also ignition control box is that after market or is that stock like in the car already


_Modified by Y00D00DZ at 9:29 PM 5-11-2009_


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (Y00D00DZ)*

the ICM is factory. 6 wire type.


----------



## notajetta (Nov 17, 2007)

*Re: (Big CADDY)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Big CADDY* »_









so i'm just getting ready to wire my ignition. i looked at my icm and it only has 4 wires coming out (pins 1,2,4, and 6) and their colors correspond with yours. the rubber boot to seal the connection only has 4 holes, so obviously it was not made with 6 wires. can i just add the missing connections?
next question: i'm not running an msd setup (yet), so then pin 1 should go the + on the coil?
thanks!


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (notajetta)*

I have nerver used the 4 wire type. Was just easier to get the one with the HAL wires attached (for me)


----------



## 2lowcoupedoor (Mar 12, 2003)

*Re: (notajetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *notajetta* »_
so i'm just getting ready to wire my ignition. i looked at my icm and it only has 4 wires coming out (pins 1,2,4, and 6) and their colors correspond with yours. the rubber boot to seal the connection only has 4 holes, so obviously it was not made with 6 wires. can i just add the missing connections?
next question: i'm not running an msd setup (yet), so then pin 1 should go the + on the coil?
thanks!


For the first question, yes you can just add 2 wires to your exhisting plug to make it a 6 wire plug...that is What I had to do too. here is a picture of how I did mine. There is a factory plug that has 6 wires though.


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (2lowcoupedoor)*

Notice:
Version 3.0 of the diagram is out.
Removed the part about getting 12volts from the + side of the coil.. 
creates a short.
sorry



















_Modified by Big CADDY at 11:18 AM 6-3-2009_


----------



## notajetta (Nov 17, 2007)

*Re: (Big CADDY)*

a week from tomorrow i expect to do the grand-'ol "check everything over and see if the darn thing starts".
in the interests of time and budget i went with the simplest ignition possible - just the ICM hooked up to the HAL sender and the coil. so without any kind of ignition curve or timing advance:
what is a reasonable static advance, and what kind of performance (or lack of) and behavior should i expect? i ask so that i won't be dissapointed, and so that i know what behavior is normal/abnormal.
backround info: this is a 16v with dual weber 45's and some sport cams from autotech.
aaaannndddd one last question. it was asked of me, and i think i know the answer... but it made me think. so: do you ever use the knock-sensor setup from the 16v with carbs?


----------



## Mk2enthusiast (Oct 14, 2001)

*Re: (notajetta)*

this will not give your ignition any kind of advance curve, your car will run like doo-doo. 
you need something to advance the timing i.e. MSD 8980, vacuum/centrifugal advance distributer


----------



## notajetta (Nov 17, 2007)

*Re: (Mk2enthusiast)*

yup. i know that. but it will obviously start and run. what i'm asking is for more detail than "doo-doo". i assume it will behave normally below 3k rpm, with a power drop-off after that? how much of a drop? is there an advance that will be a bit of a compromise?


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: (notajetta)*

I keep that exact setup in my glove box as a backup ignition in the case any of my MSD stuff fails.
It will start and run, but the benifits of timing advance won't be there. you could probably get away with a 12* advance. Most of the problem wiht a static advance is getting the car started.. If you have a strong starter/battery you may be ok.
Just try to avoid lugging the engine to avoid any type of ping.
I have a used MSD 6A box if you plan to go that route... I'm gonna put it on Ebay. but I figured I'd offer it here.


----------



## zcxerxes (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: Re: (Big CADDY)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Big CADDY* »_I think I would try a set of 50F8s. 
Also a smaller set of pumps. maybe 45.
bump up the timing a little more maybe.
that's what I'd try. 
Sweet setup. much better then the pancake motors.

thanks for the info i was kinda hoping that was the direction i was going to get advice to head in.
i like the motor. but it doesn"t have the right off idle grunt my 1776 had. past 3500 is alot more fun now.


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: Re: (zcxerxes)*

If you have larger air correctors, try them also. how are you metering your air fuel.


----------



## zcxerxes (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: Re: (Big CADDY)*

wideband in the header collector. what size would you recommend?
i was considering 32mm chokes too as i felt/ still feel the 30's are a bit small but a local aitcooled guy told me i shouldn't because i'd lose to much torque.


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: Re: (zcxerxes)*

yeah, I'd leave it at 36


----------



## Antikrist~86CGT~ (Mar 24, 2009)

*Re: Re: (Big CADDY)*

hmmm, I'll take a pic of my setup and label stuff, I've been a bit confused on how to correctly run my vac system and maybe some of you guys can gimme a hand and getting it sorted. thanks!















Joey


----------



## Antikrist~86CGT~ (Mar 24, 2009)

*Re: Re: (Antikrist~86CGT~)*

oh and 2 quick questions, where would be the best place on the exhaust to put an o2 sensor for an A/F gauge? and what type of o2 sensor will I need? TIA all!
Joey


----------



## zcxerxes (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: Re: (Big CADDY)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Big CADDY* »_yeah, I'd leave it at 36

36mm chokes?


----------



## die hase (May 21, 2007)

*Re: Re: (zcxerxes)*

Okay so i have an 8v with duel Solex 40mm on it. bought it this way. it has the points distributor. was running a mechanical fuel pump but i already changed that out for a Carter 4070. seems to work alot better. but the timing is a bitch.
would the msd 6a fix this problem and what will i need for this? i have a newer distributor with the plug not the condensor. will i need to run that with the MSD? also should i replace the coil with the msd one or is the original one fine?


----------



## notajetta (Nov 17, 2007)

*Re: Re: (die hase)*

the msd alone won't affect timing at all unless you add an msd timing computer (an 8980 is the commonly recommended box). the 8980 will take the info from the HAL sender (i'm assuming that's what you mean by "plug") and will give you spark advance.
there are other ways to do this too. i don't know 8v, but if yours has a knockbox setup, that can be used (with a bit of work) to the same (and some say better) affect.
this is all assuming that a lack of advance is the problem to start with. i wouldn't assuming that the previous owner had timed everything correctly.
can you describe the timing problem better?
btw, go back one page in this thread to see a diagram of the msd setup










_Modified by notajetta at 9:16 AM 10-1-2009_


----------



## die hase (May 21, 2007)

*Re: Re: (notajetta)*

Thanks for the help. that diagram was good to. no it does not have a knockbox setup so just going to get the 8980 box. 
as for the timing problem it will only start if i turn the distributer clockwise a little then when i get it started i have to jump out fast and turn it the other way to keep it running. from what i was reading the msd and the 8980 box will help advance the ingnition timing after it is started. also the cam is only set to 4 deg. BTDC. i think this should be closer to 8. it doe have a 276 cam in it i do believe.


----------



## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

*Re: Re: (Antikrist~86CGT~)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Antikrist~86CGT~* »_oh and 2 quick questions, where would be the best place on the exhaust to put an o2 sensor for an A/F gauge? and what type of o2 sensor will I need? TIA all!
Joey


try to get the o2 sensor at the collector before where the cat would be. I really like the AEM wideband gauge I have. It is the best tool I have for tuning the carbs. 
http://www.aempower.com/ViewCa...ID=67


----------



## franque (Jul 12, 2008)

Would a 40mm DCOE, DHLA, or DRLA get me to 200 CHP on a 16v N/A?


----------



## Antikrist~86CGT~ (Mar 24, 2009)

where do you guys run your crankcase vent to? and how about your valve cover vent? I'm about to make the drastic decision to go back to CIS if I can't get this bastard legal. would replacing my 38 with a 32/36 lower my emissions readouts? I'm thinking yes, but I am not completely certain :\
please help.
;p
Joey


----------



## yvesdemers (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: (Antikrist~86CGT~)*

are weber carbs _no._ refering to build sequence? both _tipo_ are _40dcoe18_ but one is _no.1m_ while the other is _no.2f_... 
will that give any issues?

thanks.


----------



## Antikrist~86CGT~ (Mar 24, 2009)

*cross post...*

soooo it's been awhile. the car FINALLY passed emissions at the DMV, after retarding the F##K out of the timing and struggling to keep it from stalling out the whole time so now I can focus on getting the carb tuned and running PROPERLY. 
so now of course because I got even a twinge of optimism, I have another problem arise 
when she's run and warmed up, it seems to be starving out when I let off throttle to brake for stops, etc. and have to give it a blip to keep it running. it'll also bog down and run real rough if I'm in a higher gear at low RPM, AND the damn idle will just NOT stabilize and be consistent. I sorted the vacuum leaks and the only thing I know to be wrong with the motor is the rear crank seal is whining around 1000rpms. could that be my culprit? or maybe that I have just the carter fuel pump under the hood with no pre-pump? my see thru fuel filter after the pump doesn't stay full, it'll drain to the carb and the line going in to refill it is just a fast trickle at best :\ I was thinking of moving it to the stock location and see if that'll solve the problem. as it will be pushing instead of pulling. any suggestions? maybe hook the hot water manifold under the carb back up?
I know I need to get an A/F gauge and re-jet the carb it's just lack of funds and all 
oh and lines are all good, FPR is good, both fuel filters are new/good, pump is consistent/good.


----------



## NAVI51 (Aug 18, 2008)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*

I have a 93 Cabriolet running on Digifart II. I hate Digifant so I decided to buy a carb setup but I'm pretty much new to carbs and their wiring. The carb that I bought was from a 75 Rabbit and it comes with its manifold, but I still have many questions since I know this is not easy to do and like I stated before I'm new to carbs.
-I need to know if it would be better to keep my ignition plugged to the ECU from the Digi II or should I change my ignition? If I need to change my ignition, off which cars should I get the ignition and how do I need to run the wiring? I got a Bently but it's not very specific, where could I get a specific wiring diagram from the 75 Rabbit?. 
-I know that Digi utilizes many sensors for the RPM on the tachometer and I really wanna keep my RPM gauge on the tach, what can I do to get this done? 
-Where should I be able to find a carb kit for my new carb and some new jets and the specs of the jets?
-What fuel pump should I use and where can I get it? I have a Chevrolet fuel pump on my car but deffenetly that would hurt the carb
-Any other helpful recomendations that you guys want to add I will be happy to listen to.
Thanks in advance http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## SpoolinJetta18T (Jul 30, 2004)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (NAVI51)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NAVI51* »_I have a 93 Cabriolet running on Digifart II. I hate Digifant so I decided to buy a carb setup but I'm pretty much new to carbs and their wiring. *The carb that I bought was from a 75 Rabbit and it comes with its manifold*, but I still have many questions since I know this is not easy to do and like I stated before I'm new to carbs.
-I need to know if it would be better to keep my ignition plugged to the ECU from the Digi II or should I change my ignition? If I need to change my ignition, off which cars should I get the ignition and how do I need to run the wiring? I got a Bently but it's not very specific, where could I get a specific wiring diagram from the 75 Rabbit?. 
-I know that Digi utilizes many sensors for the RPM on the tachometer and I really wanna keep my RPM gauge on the tach, what can I do to get this done? 
*-Where should I be able to find a carb kit for my new carb and some new jets and the specs of the jets?*
-*What fuel pump should I use and where can I get it? I have a Chevrolet fuel pump on my car but deffenetly that would hurt the carb*

-Any other helpful recomendations that you guys want to add I will be happy to listen to.
Thanks in advance http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

*
The carb that I bought was from a 75 Rabbit and it comes with its manifold*
what type of carb set up os it? the original '75 carb set? webers?
-*What fuel pump should I use and where can I get it? I have a Chevrolet fuel pump on my car but deffenetly that would hurt the carb*
SEARCH...lol most of us use Carter Pumps if you are going to use a chevy fuel pump you will need a FPR.
*-Where should I be able to find a carb kit for my new carb and some new jets and the specs of the jets?*
Again it all depends on the carburator set up. you can check 
http://www.germanaotuparts.com
http://www.racetep.com
http://www.redline.com
Good Luck in your swap i went from CIS to webers and i love it.


----------



## NAVI51 (Aug 18, 2008)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (SpoolinJetta18T)*

-The carb is the original carb from a 75 Rabbit, later I will be looking to upgrade to a weber.
The fuel pump problem got fixed today, I talked to a frien who is experience with fuel pumps for carbs and he gave me a mechanical fuel pump, that way I don't have to worry about any 2 fuel pump system. It mounts up where the block-off plate goes and utilizes the lobe of the intermediate shaft to creat a vacuum system and pumps it into the carb. It's pretty much like the fuel pump from an aircooled so all i need to do is run a pick up hose inside the tank http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## littlegti84 (Aug 18, 2001)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (NAVI51)*

I have a pair of DCOE 40's on my somewhat built JH motor in a '77 Scirocco. I'm switching from a stupid little facet pump to the Carter 4070, but am having trouble figuring out where to mount the dang thing. Any suggestions? Pics?


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## notajetta (Nov 17, 2007)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (littlegti84)*

you can see where i put mine:








it isn't the most efficient place to put the pump (it wants to be lower down) but it will still provide plenty of gas for 40's.
see the most recent page of this thread http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...ge=21 for a little discussion about placement and using a FPR (fuel pressure regulator) ... and you should use a FPR.


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## painter (Nov 24, 2003)

*Re: FAQ - Carbs (the12for12)*


_Quote, originally posted by *the12for12* »_A.*IGNITION *
2.Aftermarket ignition control: Simply buy an MSD 6A(L) or Crane HI-6 ignition box and use the magnetic pick ups from the stock distributor and you will have a working ignition. 
The typical belief of the ignition boxes is that they do not have a built in ignition advance. 
However, the MSD has a nice built in feature that is not found while reading the instruction manual. By reversing the magnetic leads, the MSD can give you a nice timing advance curve. You simply set the ignition at you want at idle (stock is around 10-15 degrees BTDC). As you blimp the throttle, you will find that the timing jumps to around 20-35 degrees BTDC. 


Well I have been speaking with MSD about this option of reversing the magnetic leads on the MSD 6 box for a "Nice Advance curve" and here's what they told me on the phone 
Yes you can reverse the leads and it will advance the timing but the problem with this is 
In the normal (per instructions) position of the wires the spark happens at the beginning of the timing cycle and it works great on 99.9% of all cars 
but by reversing the leads, yes, you give the car a timing advance but now the spark happens at the end of the timing cycle and you will have one hell of a time getting the timing tuned properly if at all 
So basically Yes it dose advance the timing but it really doesn't do it properly and more than likely it won't function correctly


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## shibubba (Apr 14, 2005)

I have a set of weber dcoe 45's available and I want to build an ABA w/276 cam hd springs etc. 

Just wondering if I was to run a 28-30mm chokes and appropriate jets etc would these carbs be okay for my application? Or am I not seeing the big picture? I have read the first page of the FAQ and saw this chart. I was going to jet according to the bold text ( I understand that it is for a 40, but I can get all these sizes of chokes etc... for the 45's) 

I just really dont want to go through the hassle of selling these. 

DCOE40 

upto 90 BHP; 28; 112; F16; 180; 45F9; 35; 150 
*upto 120 BHP; 30; 120; F16; 180; 45F9; 35; 150* 
upto 135 BHP; 32; 125; F16; 180; 45F9; 40; 150 
upto 145 BHP; 34; 135; F16; 180; 45F9; 40; 150 

Weber DCOM caruburetors require slightly richer idle jets and bigger main jets 

DCOE45 

upto 145 BHP; 34; 135; F16; 165; 55F8; 45; 200 
upto 175 BHP; 36; 145; F16; 165; 55F8; 45; 200 
upto 210 BHP; 38; 155; F16; 165; 55F8; 45; 200 
upto 220 BHP; 40; 165; F16; 165; 55F8; 45; 200


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## supershqipa (Apr 15, 2009)

Anyone know where to get carbs for 12V VR's????


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## SpoolinJetta18T (Jul 30, 2004)

Well last night my 83 GTI came alive with the 16v swap and the webers WOW big difference from the 1.8/8v to the 2.0/16v the power band is ridiculous after 4k rpm’s. i do need to work the kinks out of it before SOWO.... then is party time..... wooo hoo!!!!!


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## WolfzGangVR6 (Jan 1, 2002)

here is something i didn't see mentioned. tack signals? if your eliminating the factory ecu then how is your cluster picking up tach readings??? 
i have a ce1 car and goiing to do the carb setup but didn't have that portion covered....


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## jettawolfsburg88 (May 5, 2006)

Big CADDY said:


> Notice:
> Version 3.0 of the diagram is out.
> Removed the part about getting 12volts from the + side of the coil..
> creates a short.
> ...


Are the grounds in this diagram with respect to the engine? or can I just ground to the chassis?


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## notajetta (Nov 17, 2007)

WolfzGangVR6 said:


> here is something i didn't see mentioned. tack signals? if your eliminating the factory ecu then how is your cluster picking up tach readings???
> i have a ce1 car and goiing to do the carb setup but didn't have that portion covered....


With the MSD setup the 6AL has a tach output that works just fine.


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## notajetta (Nov 17, 2007)

jettawolfsburg88 said:


> Are the grounds in this diagram with respect to the engine? or can I just ground to the chassis?


You can just ground to the chassis... Just ground it well. Bad grounds will give you very bad days.


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## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

THe MSD 8980 is no longer available from MSD. you can still find them on ebay. 

I have created a new diagram for those who would use the new 8982. MSDs replacement. 

It works about the same except it allows for either 10 or 25* retard for starting below 1300RPMs 

you can add pills for the top end if you plan nitrous or just want to back down your timing at high RPMS. 

This is version 1 so I may change it if I see any errors. notice the Violet start retard wired needs 12V to activate it. (switched)


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

I have something I'd like to add to the FAQ. It's a recurring theme that I'd like to address.

*IF YOU'VE SWAPPED OUT YOUR EFI BECAUSE IT'S , AND YOU THINK CARBS WILL BE EASIER...YOU WILL SOON BE DISAPPOINTED AND DISILLUSIONED.*

Carb 'kits' for these cars (such as the ones currently for sale by BFI) do NOT come jetted for your engine, and even if they did, it would be wrong. Every engine requires different jets, and every carb will tune differently due to slight differences in casting (especially since there is far less effort put into their design and manufacture now). If you expect to enjoy your carbed car, you MUST learn how to tune it. Shops with talented carb tuners are very few and far between now, and if you cannot tune it yourself, then you will be parting your car out very shortly. We here in the carb forum would appreciate dibs on your equipment.

Thank you.


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## IRDangerDave (Sep 22, 2010)

shibubba said:


> I have a set of weber dcoe 45's available and I want to build an ABA w/276 cam hd springs etc.
> 
> Just wondering if I was to run a 28-30mm chokes and appropriate jets etc would these carbs be okay for my application? Or am I not seeing the big picture? I have read the first page of the FAQ and saw this chart. I was going to jet according to the bold text ( I understand that it is for a 40, but I can get all these sizes of chokes etc... for the 45's)
> 
> ...


The trick here is that a 40 with a 32mm choke will actually flow more air than a 45 with a 32mm choke. I know, it sounds backwards, but that's physics for you. You're probably best to run a 34 at smallest in the 45s. Properly jetted, most folks are doing just fine on 36s. If you're going to be running cams, you may even want a 38 or 40.


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## hinshu (May 29, 2001)

Just came into possession of a mk1 with a ABF swap. Will be using this forum a lot to figure out which way I will be heading.

Dual weber 45 DCOE's look to be the ideal route, but I see people using R1 carbs as well.

Thoughts and input on the two would be greatly appreciated. :thumbup:


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## prom king (Aug 14, 2004)

Can I see pictures of what people did with their Brake Booster VAC lines?

Thank you


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## lilredcabby (Mar 28, 2010)

im ganna be putting r1 carbs on my 1.8l 16v and im ganna be using a holley fpr because im using this fpr do i have to change my fuel pump or accumulator? btw the fpr regulates from 1-4 psi i was told to only feed the carbs with 3psi.


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## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

Personally I'd just eliminate the accumulator and your existing pump and just run a line to a low pressure high volume pump.


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## lilredcabby (Mar 28, 2010)

this is a very limited budget build


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

carter 4070 is what you want


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## burritowagen (Dec 12, 2005)

Can someone school me on how to set up my fueling. I'm having a hard time understanding what I need to do with my current set up. I have a mk1 on cis. So I'm assuming I would just bypass all the stock junk running a line straight from the tank to my carter to my fpr to the carbs?....am I missing something?


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## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

Just a filter.


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## vwgroundpilot (Mar 7, 2004)

burritowagen said:


> Can someone school me on how to set up my fueling. I'm having a hard time understanding what I need to do with my current set up. I have a mk1 on cis. So I'm assuming I would just bypass all the stock junk running a line straight from the tank to my carter to my fpr to the carbs?....am I missing something?


You can get a Malpassi Filter King FPR that includes a fuel filter, then you've got both FPR and filtration in one neat-looking unit. The glass filter bowl is a nice touch, too.

If this is a budget build and you haven't bought the Carter pump, you can use the stock in-tank transfer pump and run it through the FPR. Several folks on here have run their that way with success. I plan on trying that with mine. I bought the Filter King, will be keeping/using the stock in-tank pump, and deleting the high-pressure pump that sits under the passenger side in front of the rear axle.


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## vwgroundpilot (Mar 7, 2004)

*Ignition/timing question*

So I've ordered my carb kit and awaiting anxiously for it to arrive so I can tear into my car. In the meantime, I'm trying to plan out my ignition system. There is a lot of unclear information surrounding the timing.

First question: what part of a 1986 GTI CIS-E ignition is providing the timing advance? My understanding is that it's electronic, since the dizzy has a simple hall sender. I don't think there's a mechanical advance under there, but I'm not 100% sure.

What i'm wondering is if I buy the MSD Digital 6AL and 8910 tach adapter, then wire as follows, will the Ignition Control Module provide the spark advance curve, or is this a "locked out" setup?









MSD also sells the 6AL-2 Digital Programmable (6530) with the PC-programmable advance curve for locked-out dizzys. It's $100 more, so I'd prefer to avoid that expense if possible.

Thanks!


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## cubanvr6jetta (Oct 22, 2009)

im about to start my carb set up and still cant find straight answer for Fuel pump install im going the carter route and my question is.. 

-- do i remove the oem pump ?? if i do so how is the carter pump gonna get fuel if is all the way in the front... 


Please help me with this


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## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

Where is your existing pump?

You should have room back by the tank for a pump. I would put it as far away as possible because they are noisey.

maybe even some rubber mounts.


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## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

The CIS uses a static timing advance setting at the distributor. The Knock sensor made the adjustments but that was only to retard the timing when it senses a knock.

Your diagram has no timing advance or retard.


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## cubanvr6jetta (Oct 22, 2009)

Big CADDY said:


> Where is your existing pump?
> 
> You should have room back by the tank for a pump. I would put it as far away as possible because they are noisey.
> 
> maybe even some rubber mounts.


still have the in tank pump on it i just dont know if the carter will be able to pull the fuel out of the tank being out side of it and no in tank pump to push fuel out


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## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

It would be fine. Maybe try to used the in tank pump instead of the carter.


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## cubanvr6jetta (Oct 22, 2009)

HELP!!!!

i got aba with rowland manifold and dual solex on it try to put it on but the alternator is on the way what can i do is this normal?


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## Riknish Niorkin (Jan 20, 2012)

Yes that is normal, I made a custom bracket so I could mount the alt. on the waterpump. Then an extended arm thingy... try post pics later


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## notajetta (Nov 17, 2007)

cubanvr6jetta said:


> still have the in tank pump on it i just dont know if the carter will be able to pull the fuel out of the tank being out side of it and no in tank pump to push fuel out


 I have my carter pump mounted on the passenger side firewall and it pulls it up just fine... In tank pump is just unplugged.


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## cubanvr6jetta (Oct 22, 2009)

notajetta said:


> I have my carter pump mounted on the passenger side firewall and it pulls it up just fine... In tank pump is just unplugged.


 thanks finally someone answer thanks dude


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## InfamousAdam (Jun 17, 2009)

Okay this will be a long post. I recently got a 84 gti with a 16v 2l swap. Now this engine ran carbs from 2 owners ago the previous owner was going to run carbs again and did not have the time for it. A friend picked it up for parts and in bought it from him. Now I picked up a set of weber dcoe 40 with the manifold adapter there is Holley fuel reg along with a Holley fuel pump which I was deciding on changing over to a carter. Now I don't know what carbs he ran but he had both outlet valves hooked up on the reg and nothing to the return along with a hookup for a icm. There is nothing for the spark advance that i can see but he has a Bosch coil that is wired up to the icm and then over to the distributor. The water neck doesn't look like its in the way but I will replace that. Also for the brake booster what do I do about the hook up since there will be no vacuum. I have attached pics the best I have please help and if you have questions I will answer the best I can


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## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

The way he has it set up will work fine. There is no need for a return to the tank with such low pressure. The ICM will work fine like he has it as well. You just aren't getting the full advantage of a curve.. I actually carried that ICM setup in my glove box as a backup for my MSD. THe water neck looks pretty good. I'd pull it off and check it over for cracks and use it. The brake booster hookup can be pulled from one of the runners like #4. Drill and tap it and use a barbed insert to connect the hose.

here is a pic I found. Notice the AN connector. IF you are looking for bling grab a chrome toilet filler line.


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## InfamousAdam (Jun 17, 2009)

Big CADDY said:


> The way he has it set up will work fine. There is no need for a return to the tank with such low pressure. The ICM will work fine like he has it as well. You just aren't getting the full advantage of a curve.. I actually carried that ICM setup in my glove box as a backup for my MSD. THe water neck looks pretty good. I'd pull it off and check it over for cracks and use it. The brake booster hookup can be pulled from one of the runners like #4. Drill and tap it and use a barbed insert to connect the hose.
> 
> here is a pic I found. Notice the AN connector. IF you are looking for bling grab a chrome toilet filler line.


Thank you. As for the regulator should I put a plug on the one side of the reg since I only need to pull fuel from the one side? Also the distributor should I get one with a vacuum advance?


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## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

Plug the extra line or stick a pressue gauge on it. 

Don't do a vacuum distributor since there isn't a proper vacuum 

Get the car running properly with a static advance of like 8-12*. Then move on to that part.


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## GLiwant a vr6 (Apr 25, 2007)

alright i have question about wiring.


i have a 8v rabbit with a single weber dcoe set up with a msd 6al, msd coil and msd timing control.

can i get rid of the hall effect distributor and icm by getting a points distributor with a Pertronix Ignition conversion to simplify the wiring even further


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## Big CADDY (Aug 28, 2001)

Pertronix has two wires. HAL has three. I wouldn't waste time on that.


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## GLiwant a vr6 (Apr 25, 2007)

Big CADDY said:


> Pertronix has two wires. HAL has three. I wouldn't waste time on that.


this is true 

i meant more would it get rid of the icm.


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## vrally (Dec 15, 2005)

Cynical 1 said:


> _Quote, originally posted by *mofoco* »_what about blockin off the frigin injectors how to?
> 
> cheap and dirty - use dimes and some high temp silicone in each injector port.
> or, go buy 4 trans drain plugs from the dealer and screw them in.


Transmission drain plugs don't fit, but that was my initial assumption as wall. It's a 1/2" NPT (national pipe thread) I threaded a reducer bushing (for clearance issues) to reduce it to 3/8" I used a little JB weld on the threads because they were questionable. From there thread a barbed fitting into that bushing giving me a vaccume port pre throttle plate to sync the carbs and more than abundant vaccume for the brake booster.
I modded a lower intake manifold on my 9a 16v 2.0 and got r1 carbs to just clear the hood, but just. 
Any advice on throttle cable?
I'm thinking of stealing the lines off my old BMX (never used them any way)


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## vrally (Dec 15, 2005)

Here's where I'm at.
My 89' GTI I swaped a 2.0 16v 9a into it. 
I ran it on the 1.8 PL's CIS-e system with some sucess but the fuel distributor was always an issue as was the injectors, I had a o2 guage hooked up and it would jump arround more than a rabbit at a dog show.
I bought Mikuni 40's off a yamaha r1. Cut the lower intake manifold down to about an inch from where the molding injector cups was about an inch away from the end of the runner. Now the carbs were alligned narrower than the runners but with good 3" 5 ply sylicon 2" to 1 3/4" reducers and a little trimming I got a manifold that I have relative faith in. And was able to shut the hood with the cone air filter just tuching the hood when closed.
The old injector cups removed a 1/2" to 3/8" NPT steel hardware store variety reducer bushing was threaded into. a 3/8 thread to 1/2" barbed fitting threaded into that. From there 1/2" fuel hose and 1/2" L and T fittings were configured and compiled in series and leading to the vaccume port for the brake booster, while also alowing for access to each individual port for dynamic vaccume syncronization of the throttle plates. 
Fueling is: in-tank transfer pump to 3/8 (AN-6) fuel line to clear glass fuel filter to holly 140 GPH low pressure pump to a T fitting , 1 to low pressure regulator set at 3.5 psi leading to large canister style fuel filter (to act as a fuel pulse damper) them to the carbs themselves, other line to cheep high pressure regulator set at arround 10 psi leading to return line to the fuel tank.
Fuel vent line from the charcol is run to a vaccum port placed in the top of the cone air filter along with the catch can vent for the crankcase and the various vents for the carbs.
Ignition is to be the stock knock sensor & electronics of the cis-e system. Am I hereing this right that there is no advance on this system? I'll be consitering a vaccume advance dizzy of so.
What car can I steal one from. Volvo turbo?
Need more info on an initial tune as carbs to manifold installing is an off the car endevor with my manifold to carb alignment. I want to get pretty close to start. No cat stock 1.8 2 1/8" exhaust mufflers, Stock 9a engine, R1 carbs on a short runner. Looking for midrange / low end over peak hp for now. 
Also throttle cable help. A part # would rock. I'm about to take brake cables off BMX and try it.
Am I missing anything??
I want to pull the choke from the dash. Farm and Home tractor choke cable was my first thought.
Thoughts?


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## crazy16v (Feb 12, 2005)

*ms1 v3*

Set up for Aba 16v
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5870872-Ms1-v3&p=79521196#post79521196


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## VW_RAT_VW (May 22, 2007)

I have one question that I just cant seam to find the answer to from anyone, everything Ive found provides indirect and sketchy answers so if someone can please just answer me this would be awesome. I have Dellorto 45 carbs that I plan on running on a 16v motor in my mk2 jetta and I will be running the oem fuel pump. So far I have: Carbs, manifold, fuel pressure regulator, oem IMC and a basic harness made to run it with a vacuum advanced dizzy however Im still missing a saab dizzy. So my question is can I just run it with what I have just basic and mechanical, with out all the MSD stuff?? And the saab distributor that I need to get is it off of a turbo or non turbo car?? Thanks in advance


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## BATComm1 (Apr 17, 2010)

*Hopfully have everything to go to carbs..*

Been doing allot of reading and hope I now have everything to do my swap..

Going to the R1 carbs on my 91 16v 2.0 9a..

Going with the Carter pump with the Holley bypass fpr, for ignition I have the CB Performance "Black Box" going to use the stock distributor and coil, manifold is tapped for vacuum. That's the major stuff, going to go with aftermarket tach and the Black Box has wiring for that, btw, this will be in my 82 caddy. Doing mechanical oil,alt and temp gauges in the center console.

I'm not getting in a hurry doing a mild "freshing" of the 16v before the install as well as all new external items, water pump,ect.. Head will be port matched with Techtonics 268 cams. 5 spd tranny, should be a fun little ride!!!

Any tips on a clutch kit, would like to go with a Stage 2 but I'm sure a stock would be just fine..places to buy??


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## funkymonkeybooze (Jun 30, 2012)

*1.8 GU 8v twin DCOE 40s*

Weber DCOE experts please; I'm trying to jet my carbs so suggestions. I hope this helps others as it is very difficult to find anything on 8 valves with effect on drivability/performance. Here's my progress/trial and error write-up:-

Car is 1989 1.8GL UK right hand drive (brake servo in the way of cylinder 1 intake).

Facet 60104 fuel pump (inherited, not by choice).
Malpassi 3-way fuel regulator with return, guage set to 1.5psi, reasonably steady control.
Mangoletsi manifold, ported/port matched.
Massively ported GU head with old inlet manifold coolant feed blocked off. Exhaust/inlet on same side (rear of engine).
Standard valves, springs, hydraulic lifters, seats standard (throats have been widened/blended).
Camshaft is Newman 272 duration, 10.8mm? lift
Timing/ignition is standard GU distributor, vac advance connected to cyl 4 on Mangoletsi manifold with big green ball (from Pierburg 2E2) as vac pulse compensator.
Timing set to standard flywheel mark with vac disconnected from distributor at idle (is 18 degrees BTDC?).
Twin DCOE 40s only identification on them is '3K', possibly Toyota? They have 3 progression holes and originally had 30mm chokes.

Jetting:-
My starting point, more or less book guide values.
Chokes: 34mm
Mains: 135
Air Correctors: 185 (i.e, + 50 over mains)
Idles: 50 F9
Pump Jets (in carb already) : 35 (small?).
Emulsions: F16

What did it drive like? Very jerky on acceleration, almost like random missfire very scarey. Setting the idle screws, they were only 0.75 turns out (rich?).
Problems arise on transition about 2500rpm. Then no power and quiet running after 3000rpm, at wide open throttle to 4000rpm, too scared to go beyond 4000rpm. Otherwise was a pleasant drive around town.

I assumed the idle jets were too rich and the mains were way too lean. I already had some 180 air correctors from the old carb setup. I plonked these in to see if it helped richen the main circuit. The difference was barely noticable, but did make some small improvement (less jerking/missfire/smoother).

Next step I tried was 145 mains, I bought 125s as backup in case I was wrong too . This made a drastic change to the whole setup especially at 3000-5000rpm where there was noticably more power, yay! However, drivability low down took a nose dive (stalling) and there was still alot of bucking/jerking.

Next I had already some 45 F8s from the old carb setup so swapped these in. Significant smoother town driving, however is still jerky at slow throttle transitioning to wide open throttle. No noticable difference from 3000-5000rpm. Wide open throttle sounds lean to me as in there isn't a roar of power, more like the sound of drawing air. Idle screws now set about 1 full turn out on each barrel. The 45 F8 has a massive air hole versus the 50 F9 so is leaner.

Current Jetting:-
Chokes: 34mm
Mains: 145
Air Correctors: 180
Idles: 45 F8
Pump Jets (in carb already) : 35 (small?).
Emulsions: F16

Guys, what is my next move? Here is my personal jet 'arsenal' to play with:-

Chokes: 30, 34
Emulsions: F16
Idles: 50 F9, 45 F8
Mains: 115, 125, 135, 145
Airs: 180, 185, 200
Pump Jets: 35

My gut feeling is that the mains can go richer still. +10 on the mains improved alot of the mid-range/top end. I ordered in some 160 air correctors, but some div sent me 1x160 and 3 x 100s, I could get a set of drill-bits I suppose and solder? Save me buying more jets.
Is it worth up-sizing the pump jets? These are more expensive parts.


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## littlegti84 (Aug 18, 2001)

I have a similar setup and will look at my notes of my current jetting and such but just a couple things off the bat... I had a facet pump and I had nothing but problems. Fuel pressure should be set at about 4 psi. And what do the plugs look like?


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## funkymonkeybooze (Jun 30, 2012)

Will try 4psi thanks. I moved to the Malpassi regulator as the Sytec Pro-Flow (with a dial) pressure was all over the place, especially as my suspension is pretty solid.

If you can find out your jetting setup that would be awesome! It will give me some grounding as to which way to head.

I think the pulsations of the Facet pump/rocking of 4 pot engine play havoc on the fuel level in the carbs, to the point that you end up with the "bucking" I'm getting. Just a theory. Will look for a "volume" pump.


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## funkymonkeybooze (Jun 30, 2012)

Tried 4psi, not any real noticable difference.
Took out the plugs, they are as black as night, not wet, just a coating of dry soot. Too rich then, where next?


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## funkymonkeybooze (Jun 30, 2012)

All four spark plugs look like this


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

If it's a straight vac advance distributor, then feeding it manifold vacuum will play funky games with the timing. It requires ported vacuum, which the webers can't provide.


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## funkymonkeybooze (Jun 30, 2012)

B4S said:


> If it's a straight vac advance distributor, then feeding it manifold vacuum will play funky games with the timing. It requires ported vacuum, which the webers can't provide.


The old Pierburg carb took the vacuum where I have it taken from, just now its a single port so no smooth VAC signal. The old manifold had a tube with a tiny hole in it, using this might help to smooth out the pressure variations? Or add VAC pipes on the trumpets? Think this would be wrong anyway, great for checking balance tho.

Could try moving the timing about, if so what am I looking for as regards noises to avoid  (pinking). Want me to post the timing at each rpm I'm currently getting?


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

Well, maybe a reading at idle, since that's where the highest timing is going to be recorded if the vac signal is wrong. If the original carb fed it the same way, then I guess it's not that big of a deal, but it's always good to check .


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## funkymonkeybooze (Jun 30, 2012)

Ok SHES ALIVE!

Finally bit the bullet and removed the brake servo to make way for trumpet #1. Saw a few guys running without them and figured the breaks couldn't get that much worse...ok they do, you don't appreciate the extra effort from it until its gone . Practically had to remove the whole front subframe to tilt the engine far enough forward to get the servo outta there.

However, what a monster, and the sound too! 3000rpm to 4000 is rapid, I used to have a Lotus esprit S3, about 160 bhp? Must be near to that easily. Feels like it runs out of puff about 4500rpm, so maybe richer mains...currently at 145 and airs are at 200.

It was the foam filter. Blocking #1 when at full throttle with the venturi jiggling around inside that barrel.


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## skizo (Apr 1, 2015)

This is my version: 
Car: Audi 80 B3 88'

2.0 9A + 1.8 KR head + ABF camshafts with Yamaha R1 Mikuni carb 

exhaust 4-1 2,25 inch


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## Alderstorm (Jan 17, 2004)

I'm using a Daytona Sensors TCS-1 instead of a MSD 8980 or 8982. I modified BigCaddy's diagram to reflect my setup. I also included the timing parameters and timing table I'm using. I just got the car running so I'm not positive this is the best timing curve. Car is an 82 Scirocco with a 9A on twin dellorto DHLA 45's. Fueling taken care of by a Carter 4070 fuel pump with Malpassi regulator. (Still trying to get the fuel pump relay to work. 6AL is driving tach just fine but not fuel pump relay, waiting on a NOS relay vice the 20$ aftermarket version available right now.

Chokes - 37
Idle Jet Holder - 7850.2
Idle Jet - 55
Air Corrector Jet - 195
Emulsion Tube - 7772.5
Main Jet - 145
Pump Jet - 40
Needle Valve - 2.00

Car is running good but leans out under heavy acceleration. Going to bump up the main jets. Also a tad rich at idle and mixture screws are only open 1 5/8 turns, going to bump down on the idle jets


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## Zhorik (Feb 9, 2014)

Is jet choose on bike carbs is the same as for webers?


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## joshuaj (Jun 22, 2016)

Please don't chastise me for this but after reading 15 pages of this post i have found a plethora of very useful information, but not the answers I'm looking for. 
1. When carb - ing, what does one do about MAF sensor? Is the only way to run some form of stand alone engine management? 
2. What is done about PCV and crank case breathing? My current engine came to me with one of those little filters in place of PCV, and an oil leak from the base of the distributor. When i reinstalled a factory PCV plumbed to intake, the oil leak stopped permanently.

I have been gathering parts for about a year to swap my ABA hybrid from an mk2 gti into an mk1 cabby, what I've realized is there is not enough space for the stock passenger side airbox. Only ideas ihave at this point are build a different head or carb/itb the one I've already got...

Suggestions? 

Thank you


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