# Forger wastegate actuator w/APR k04 ed30



## 2.0Ginster (Aug 9, 2006)

Anybody running this with APR tune? Any benefits if your wastegate cycle is normal? Worth the hassle of dialing it in, or just leave it stock?


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Forger wastegate actuator w/APR k04 ed30 (2.0Ginster)*

No point really. You'll just overboost significantly at boost onset and you'll get a lot of compressor surge.


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## FSIGTI (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: Forger wastegate actuator w/APR k04 ed30 (2.0Ginster)*

I don't remember much about it but there was someone on either this forum or golfmkv that was testing it. If you do a search you should find it on golfmkv with no problems.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: Forger wastegate actuator w/APR k04 ed30 (FSIGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FSIGTI* »_I don't remember much about it but there was someone on either this forum or golfmkv that was testing it. If you do a search you should find it on golfmkv with no problems. 

That would be me, and as it seems testing is not over yet....
There might still be even more power than previously thought, just waiting on Revo to confirm my thoughts and adjust accordingly...
To be continued....


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## sloMKV (Sep 29, 2008)

FWIW when I installed the Forge WGA I picked up 4mph in the 1/4 mile on the K03 with APR software. My stock actuator was perfectly fine and my N75 and boost logs were great before installing it. When I switched to Revo I picked up another 1.5mph even though I was flashed with the wrong file (stage 2), and expect even better gains when I go back the the stage 2+ file. 
I imagine the gains on the K04 would be even better. APR just bashes whatever Forge makes so don't expect them to tell you it's a good idea. Another guy picked up about 20whp on the K03 with APR as well and his logs were great with none of the issues APR said were inevitable.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (sloMKV)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sloMKV* »_APR just bashes whatever Forge makes so don't expect them to tell you it's a good idea.

Oh I am so tired of this BS. 
First of all, the K04 does not need a stronger wastegate. The wastegate does not blow open. You can throw as much boost at it as you want, it will not open up. You can run the turbo as hard as you want, it will not open up. I specifically experimented on this with my own car and have hit over 30+ lbs of boost with the factory wastegate with only software changes! Result? The turbo surged HARD! It was not good although seeing the needle past 30 was exciting for a second. 
With APR software we map boost onset such that you'll spool very quickly. This will result in a little bit of boost overshoot at boost onset which will taper back down to requested levels. We do this to get the car moving off the line as fast as possible. There is no need to throw in hardware to do this... we can do it with software!
We can request and make a lot more boost down low, however, the fsi head/cam setup is simply not free flowing enough to take advantage of the extra boost down low. Too much boost and you'll end up with compressor surge. It's a fine line you're playing with here. If you ever look at a boost log of the k04 with APR software, you'll notice boost is limited till about 4000 rpm. After this point boost raises up before finally tapering towards redline. Boost is able to raise after about 4k because after this point running higher boost will not cause compressor surge.
Given the way the software is setup, physical properties of the BPY engine and the fact the wastegate on the k04 is perfectly fine, altering is not a good idea. I'd hate to see someone throw down 35psi on their first pull and send a rod out the side of the engine. 
Having first hand knowledge of the k04, our software, and the dangers of replacing the wastegate with an unknown unit not identical to stock is not a good idea in my professional opinion.


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## sloMKV (Sep 29, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*

You guys said all this in the K03 thread a long with a lot of other negative speculation and none of the issues you guys said would be present were there. Then when the logs and dyno results were great Keith said this:

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected];2029588* »_I agree with you about the way we handled the Forge w/g. We should have bought one and destroyed it with data as opposed to arguing theory. The only difference I would point out is that for those that have an understanding of the Bosch EMS, the theory was sound and proven.
However, I will say again, we handled that incorrectly.

Yet you guys did the same thing in the Twintake thread, and now here we are with the K04 actuator.


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## jaycheetwood (Jun 18, 2009)

Slomkv 
what changes did you make in your revo settings when you went to the forge unit. I am looking at it and wondering what i need to look for.


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## kayaker10 (Jan 10, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Having first hand knowledge of the k04, our software, and the dangers of replacing the wastegate with an unknown unit not identical to stock is not a good idea in my professional opinion.

As much as I disagree with some of your marketing techniques on this forum, I generally have respect for some of your staff's knowledge and committiment.
Just so I can separate the wheat from the chaff, can you explain how you have a professional opinion on technical issues? I thought you were in sales. Do you have certification in auto mechanics or engineering?


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## tdotA3mike (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: (kayaker10)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kayaker10* »_
As much as I disagree with some of your marketing techniques on this forum, I generally have respect for some of your staff's knowledge and committiment.
Just so I can separate the wheat from the chaff, can you explain how you have a professional opinion on technical issues? I thought you were in sales. Do you have certification in auto mechanics or engineering? 


you do realize he has run a K04 for a while now, not to mention he can talk to any of the APR engineers to verify this. If you don't believe what he says PM one of the APR engineers and ask them.... If he worked for REVO and was saying this i guarantee no one would have an issue...


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (kayaker10)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sloMKV* »_You guys said all this in the K03 thread a long with a lot of other negative speculation and none of the issues you guys said would be present were there.

The information I relayed about the k03 was different however the main points I relayed were all true. I have many emails and logs from users who were experiencing exactly the issues I outlined. While some may have been able to make it 'work' it does not mean it was or is operating ideally. But that's besides the point. This thread is not about the K03. The k03 is completely different. I will not continue to discuss the K03 in this thread. 
Unlike the K03, the K04 much more susceptible to overboost and surging as it's capable of actually creating tremendously high levels of boost at lower RPM's. I know this because I've tested it in house on the OEM wastegate with only software changes. Also, the PID loop tuning between our K03 software and K04 software is significantly different. By altering the PID loop tuning and other maps in the ECU, you could run any wastegate you'd like. This is not something any end user can do on his or her own. 

_Quote, originally posted by *kayaker10* »_Just so I can separate the wheat from the chaff, can you explain how you have a professional opinion on technical issues? I thought you were in sales. Do you have certification in auto mechanics or engineering? 

Sorry, I'm not in sales. I respond on the forums because I am an enthusiast, I enjoy answering customer questions and because the Engineers don't have the time to answer all customer questions all day long. The information I have gathered, tested and relayed to customers has come straight from our head of Engineering who is a Mechanical Engineer *P.E.* (*Professional* Engineer) and from my own personal testing. Regarding me, I personally graduated from a private University, studied computer engineering/information systems & physics. I've worked for APR for several years. The beauty of working here is the wealth of technical knowledge directly at my fingertips either though technical documentation not available to the public, the motorsport team and employees experience and our engineering department. One of the greatest advantages is the ability to not 'guess' how the ECU handles hardware changes or reacts in different situations. Being able to see the code directly and work with the engineers who understand it fully makes accelerated learning quite easy. If there is something I don't understand, I just ask. Therefor I'm more than qualified to answer many questions directly and I'm even more qualified type out exactly what our Professional Engineers have told me.


_Modified by [email protected] at 1:13 PM 3-17-2010_


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## kayaker10 (Jan 10, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Therefor I'm more than qualified to answer many questions directly and I'm even more qualified type out exactly what our Professional Engineers have told me.
_Modified by [email protected] at 1:13 PM 3-17-2010_

Don't get me wrong. I never said you were not quailified to answer customer questions in forums. I also work very closely every day with PE's in many disciplines. I represent thier views and others to the public as part of my job for the past 20 years. I write technical/policy documents and present them to elected and appointed officials. However, when asked about the validity of a proposed engineering solution, I would never say "In my professional opinion" in response to a question in a field I was not a true professional. I think it would be fine if you 
said had said, "In our (meaning APR) professinal opinion the wastgate..... "
I don't mean bust your chops. Just that in my field there are potential legal consequences to misrepresentng your qualifications to offering "professional opinions". I also consider myself an enthusiest. I do not claim to be a professional in 2.0T engineering. I'll just chalk it up to the differences between a forum fluffer and the real world.
Arin, I think it just boils down to a general fatigue we all feel being bombarded by info commercials and pop up ads. Best wishes to you and APR. We all want to be the best 

_Modified by kayaker10 at 1:50 PM 3/17/2010_









_Modified by kayaker10 at 2:09 PM 3/17/2010_


_Modified by kayaker10 at 2:33 PM 3/17/2010_


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## kayaker10 (Jan 10, 2006)

*Re: (kayaker10)*

Arin, as a fellow enthusiest, I appeciate your efforts for all the finer elements of unleashing our cars potential. Keep up the best of repping APR. I simply hope you can show some more respect other companies contrbutions to the efforts in giving us options.


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## tdotA3mike (Feb 5, 2009)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *kayaker10* »_Arin, as a fellow enthusiest, I appeciate your efforts for all the finer elements of unleashing our cars potential. Keep up the best of repping APR. I simply hope you can show some more respect other companies contrbutions to the efforts in giving us options.


has he once called out forge in this thread?... nope he is relaying APR's personal experience and beliefs. That come from a company that fields 3 racing teams, works closer with VW then any other aftermarket company. Someone asked if this forge WG can work with an *APR tune * hence Arin gave APR's statement on the subject.... geez... Allow everyone to have there opinion including APR, what you are doing is no worse then what you claim APR does. 
If you are so sure in this product and its application, then you wouldn't be worried about what APR claims. 


_Modified by tdotA3mike at 5:53 PM 3/17/2010_


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## kayaker10 (Jan 10, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (tdotA3mike)*

Arin did call our waste gate issues. Let Arin respond to my posts. You are running the risks of a fan boy. Enthusists only want objective comments and take with a grain of salt those offered by forums sponsers. Point to my claims I know more or slammed APR.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (kayaker10)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kayaker10* »_Arin did call our waste gate issues.

What issue?


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## tdotA3mike (Feb 5, 2009)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *kayaker10* »_Arin did call our waste gate issues. Let Arin respond to my posts. You are running the risks of a fan boy. Enthusists only want objective comments and take with a grain of salt those offered by forums sponsers. Point to my claims I know more or slammed APR. 


Your problem is clear, if anyone doesn't give the answer you are looking for you claim it to be either bashing or fanboyism... APR just like forge just like any other company has the right to voice there opinions. APR does not agree with WG tweaks and they have allot of important data/information to back there reasoning. You keep forgetting that the OP is asking if he should run this on an *APR program*. Because Arin is disagreeing with the idea of a tweaked WG running on an APR car. You think he is going after forge, he is just stating his opinion and APR's. You talk about objective comments but you are throwing away anything APR has to say before understanding there stance, because they are disagreeing with you. If you don't think Arin is able to answer your questions PM one of the engineers at APR and see what they say. 
If you think its okay to run it, thats fine but APR has the right to advise its own clients the risks and reasons why they disagree... 

_Modified by tdotA3mike at 7:10 PM 3/17/2010_


_Modified by tdotA3mike at 7:11 PM 3/17/2010_


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## Forge US (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Oh I am so tired of this BS. 

There are quite a few people tired of YOUR BS too.
APR has done nothing but bash this product as a pointless, detrimental, and catastrophically hazardous modification from the beginning simply to support their corporate position that they are choosing NOT to calibrate their software to take advantage of the PROVEN functional benefits that this product is capable of providing, as MANY other tuners do on a daily basis for dozens of other applications. They would rather sell you cookie cutter "_tunes_" advertised as the ONLY safe and reliable means of "_tuning_" your cars.
In EVERY other facet of the automotive aftermarket, when you make a hardware upgrade to your vehicle, you can and often should or need to recalibrate the ECU to take advantage of it. This happens in the VW and Audi market as well, and within APR's own product range.
Add an intake, then tune for it.
Add an exhaust, then tune for it.
Add a fuel pump, then tune for it.
Add a bigger turbo, then tune for it.
Why can't you add a wastegate actuator *then TUNE FOR IT*?!?!?!?!?!?!?
That's kind of the fundamental definition of the ongoing process of tuning, isn't it?








[email protected] has openly stated previously that a wastegate modification "_MUST_" be done with corresponding ECU modification.

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected];1777573* »_Here we go! Finally!!
What I've been trying to tell everyone is *now that we have changed the mechanical operation of the w/g we MUST recalibrate the ecu to understand the mechanical change we've made.*
The ecu doesn't know where the wastegate is anymore. It simply thinks it only needs to open and close the w/g alot less for some reason to achieve requested boost. It has no idea whether the w/g is all the way closed, partially open still or what. It just knows it no longer has to send as much of a signal to it but it has no idea why.
The ecu could be holding the wastegate completely closed at say 60% duty cycle now and have no idea its doing so which can cause the turbo to over spin.
You haven't changed the efficiency of the turbo, only the efficiency of the ecu sending the w/g duty signal. You are still pushing the turbo alot more than you were before because the ECU has no idea about the new cracking pressures.

If the most power can be made in the most efficient manner with software tuning alone, more specifically, if simply increasing the duty cycle of the N75 solenoid to over 90% is the best boost control method, why are we seeing an increase in boost and power via mechanical wastegate control/modification?
Keep in mind that higher duty cycle doesn't physically keep the actuator closed tighter against the exhaust gas pressure flowing through the turbo. It does NOT apply vacuum to the actuator to keep it closed. It simply further delays the time until the pressure signal is finally sent to the actuator to open it fully.
An earlier question I posed to APR was concerning the potential shortened life span of the N75 boost control solenoid when it's reprogrammed to operate at +/- 90% duty cycle at wide open throttle conditions with their software as many data logs have shown, as opposed to our actuator taking up some of the mechanical difference allowing the solenoid to perform at 60% or less duty cycle at the same wide open throttle condition while the vehicle is still reaching the same or even a slightly higher peak boost level, but with improvements like QUICKER spool and LESS tapering of boost.
Consider that by increasing the boost pressure entering the motor on the intake side of the system, you will see a similar and corresponding increase in exhaust gas pressure that is exiting the motor into the exhaust manifold to spool the turbo. It is a common practice to upgrade the bypass valve to a stronger unit that will better support the increased boost pressure on the intake side, however, you need to also increase the spring tension of the wastegate actuator to better contain these higher exhaust gas pressures as well.
Keith even openly admits that boost can be increase by mechanical means, and while he wants you to think that we're "_ignoring_" the interconnectivity with the ECU, we have openly stated from the beginning that more power potential is possible when the software being used is properly calibrated for the mechanical change
http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90468

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected];1763405* »_*Yes, it can be increased by mechanical means* but what you are not discussing is the interconnectivity, integration and reliance on the electronics that interface with the hardware.
Changing the way the wastegate mechanically responds to the electrical control by the ecu greatly affects multiple other control strategies inside the ecu and as we've already seen with previous logs creates an overboost condition that the ecu is not prepared to control properly.
Your questions are leading us down a path of debating the merits of electronic engine control versus mechanical engine control which has not been debated in 30 years or so as electronic engine control is widely considered superior by all.
Why do you guys want to try and dumb down the technology found in the modern engine management systems by trying to control boost mechanically?
Correct, there are other control strategies or mapping and compensation tables that affect boost output other than the N75 solenoid mapping alone. However, all of these control strategies are present inside the ecu. There definitely are other ways to control boost mechanically but the problem is that the ecu doesn't know what is happening when you choose to do it that way. Why don't oem's control boost with wastegate spring tension alone? Why did millions of dollars of R&D money get thrown at developing electronic engine management systems? Why weren't turbocharged cars widely available until electronic control strategies were developed?
And that pre-load setting is also very, very specific and is accommodated and dictated by the ecu and its control strategies. It happens to be 6/1000th's of an inch of rod movement at 7.3 psi or some such (don't feel like finding a production guy to get the exact specs). If your wastegate is not set to those specs, the ecu can't control it properly. Does your product not undo this?
Seems to me that you understand commonly accepted engineering principles regarding turbocharged engines from the 70's. Take a look at your calendar, its 2009, technology has advanced a bit.
To do this properly, you would need to recalibrate all of the boost control strategies and other dependent and interconnected control strategies in the ecu to accomodate for the new cracking pressures provided by your product.

Technology has advanced in as much as the mechanical tuning methods are not completely bypassed at all as Keith states. They are still fundamentally necessary and vital components of the systems that are simply now manipulated by electronic solenoids that do nothing more than switch on and off based on the ECU calibration controlling them.
A wastegate actuator is still the fundamental hardware component controlling boost. NOT the ECU nor the N75 solenoid. The actuator is simply manipulated by the N75 valve according to the control perameters built into the ECU for it, which APR adjusts anyway in their tuning.
Just because their current software is not calibrated for it, does NOT mean, by any measure, that there are not gains to be achieved by the incorporation of this product and its inherent mechanical benefits to the system.
It means simply that in order to allow this application to reach its fullest potential with this product incorporated, you will need to have the ability and wherewithal to tune for it.
All of the _strategies, maps and tables_ within the ECU controlling boost, timing and fuel could all be adjusted to take full advantage of this hardware upgrade and its affects on the boost curve. 
*APR simply doesn’t want to do it.*
And by no means are they obligated to in support of our product, however, that does NOT serve as supporting evidence that proves the product doeesn't work nor that it is detrimental.
Here is a dyno showing our actuators providing an increase in boost and power on two otherwise IDENTICALLY modified AND tuned Nissan GTR's.
http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=33815&st=0








Here is a dyno of gains seen on an untuned Mitsubishi Evo X.








And there are numerous dynos and datalogs in this thread on another forum showing the potential this upgrade clearly provides with Revo AND even APR software on other actuator equipped FSI cars.
http://golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89839
http://golfmkv.com/forums/show...t=k04
We've proven they work, and continue to do so with every single unit we sell. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Let's get real here. This all boils down to one funamental principle of economies of scale.
Time vs. Money
FACT: It takes time to tune cars. 
FACT: It costs money too.
Why are custom tunes for various hardware modifications not commonplace? Because they cost too much time and money to be effectively marketable. This is why the companies who specialize in custom tuning are typically smaller shops in comparison to the larger "_tuning_" companies.
Why? Because the larger tuning companies spend more time up front to effectively produce more generic but less potent "_tunes_" that are suitable for a wider range of vehicles and modifications and within a wider safety margin, but they effectively market them to the masses at a lower cost as the "_only_" way to safely tune said cars. Because of this, they are able to sell more than smaller companies who spend more time on each and every vehicle dialing in all of the perameters for a more specialized and potent tune.
This holds true not only for the VW and Audi market, but the Japanese market as well. NOT because European cars are more specialized and more difficult to tune as many people would have you believe, but because it's how the market works. 
This doesn't mean custom tunes, and more specifically, the wider range of hardware modifications associated with them are unreliable or problematic. They are just more expensive and less marketable to the masses.


_Modified by [email protected] at 11:58 AM 3-19-2010_


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## marine78 (Feb 12, 2009)

It amazes me how quickly we forget that there has been so many turbo powered vehicles made and the waste gate tweak is one of the mods made to get as much power as possible. Back in the late 80's, Kenne Bell ran a Grand National V6, single turbo, though A 3" exhaust and broke into the 7 second mark. All mods do make a difference, so go for it!


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## jj87 (Jul 13, 2008)

Silly APR.


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## 2.0Ginster (Aug 9, 2006)

*Re: (jj87)*

Thanks for the info Mike. So I have read through a lot of this stuff on the KMV forums and such but don't see much data on the K04 part. Without a custom tune and just using the out of the box APR tune what kind of power increase is normal with this type of upgrade?
Thanks


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## Forge US (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: (2.0Ginster)*

We saw about 20 hp and tq on the K03 equipped APR test car, but no dyno was done on the K04 equipped car, so it's impossible for me to say exactly as of right now.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (2.0Ginster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2.0Ginster* »_Thanks for the info Mike. So I have read through a lot of this stuff on the KMV forums and such but don't see much data on the K04 part. Without a custom tune and just using the out of the box APR tune what kind of power increase is normal with this type of upgrade?
Thanks

If you can be a bit more patient i can have that for you really soon...
Currently trying to iron out some issues with Revo's new flash, and i'll hit the dyno. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_In EVERY other facet of the automotive aftermarket, when you make a hardware upgrade to your vehicle, you can and often should or need to recalibrate the ECU to take advantage of it. 
Why can't you add a wastegate actuator *then TUNE FOR IT*?!?!?!?!?!?!?


Mike,
When you make a change to the wastegate actuator, you need to recalibrate the ECU for it to function properly. It amazes me you’d mention recalibrating the ECU yet you sell this product knowing no one recalibrates the ECU to use it properly. 
In the case of the K04, recalibrating the ECU for a forge wastegate actuator would simply allow the car to run properly with the forge wastegate actuator. There is no ‘advantage’ to running it as there is no issue with the OEM unit.

_Quote »_If the most power can be made in the most efficient manner with software tuning alone, more specifically, if simply increasing the duty cycle of the N75 solenoid to over 90% is the best boost control method, why are we seeing an increase in boost and power via mechanical wastegate control/modification?

Mike,
On the k04 we’ll typically see around 60% duty cycle that will increase to the 70s by redline. Naturally this will be different in different situations but this is just a generalization. If we were to run more duty cycle down low we could make more boost. I’ve tested this on my own car. I was easily able to hit over 30 psi on the factory wastegate just by altering the software. Obviously this is not ideal, which is why we don’t run a higher wastegate duty cycle down low. 
By simply adding the forge wastegate to the k04, the ECU will attempt to run what it’s told to run on the OEM unit. It will significantly overshoot our requested boost levels. You may feel this is an advantage as you are running more boost but this is not ideal in any way! Customers may see 30-35psi boost spikes. The result of this could be catastrophic! Further more, running that much boost low in the rev range will cause the turbocharger to surge as it’s simply too much boost. Like I said, I tried this on my own vehicle with just software changes. I wanted to run a ‘max boost’ file just to see what it felt like. Running that much boost down low is simply too much as the turbocharger surged pretty hard. 
I don’t see how or why anyone would consider this an advantage. And, as I said, this is easily accomplishable with the stock wastegate and tuning. We can run as much boost as the turbo can make at any given time with the factory wastegate. Altering the wastegate offers no advantage on the k04. 


_Quote »_An earlier question I posed to APR was concerning the potential shortened life span of the N75 boost control solenoid when it's reprogrammed to operate at +/- 90% duty cycle at wide open throttle conditions with their software as many data logs have shown, as opposed to our actuator taking up some of the mechanical difference allowing the solenoid to perform at 60% or less duty cycle at the same wide open throttle condition while the vehicle is still reaching the same or even a slightly higher peak boost level, but with improvements like QUICKER spool and LESS tapering of boost.

It’s 2010… how many N75 valves have failed? BTW, this thread is about the k04. I have never seen a log of our K04 software requesting a flatlined 90% to redline w/o a boost leak.

_Quote »_Consider that by increasing the boost pressure entering the motor on the intake side of the system, you will see a similar and corresponding increase in exhaust gas pressure that is exiting the motor into the exhaust manifold to spool the turbo. It is a common practice to upgrade the bypass valve to a stronger unit that will better support the increased boost pressure on the intake side, however, you need to also increase the spring tension of the wastegate actuator to better contain these higher exhaust gas pressures as well.

This would only make sense if there actually were an issue, which there isn’t. 

_Quote »_Keith even openly admits that boost can be increase by mechanical means, and while he wants you to think that we're "_ignoring_" the interconnectivity with the ECU, we have openly stated from the beginning that more power potential is possible when the software being used is properly calibrated for the mechanical change

Mike, 
Everyone knows if you weld the wategate shut you’ll make more boost. The thing is, if we want more boost all we have to do is tell the software to make more boost. The reason we don’t tell the ECU to make a crazy amount of boost in lower RPMs is because it will cause the turbocharger to surge and the reason we don’t up top is because the turbocharger will fall off it’s efficiency range. Resulting EGTs will skyrocket. 


_Quote »_Technology has advanced in as much as the mechanical tuning methods are not completely bypassed at all as Keith states. They are still fundamentally necessary and vital components of the systems that are simply now manipulated by electronic solenoids that do nothing more than switch on and off based on the ECU calibration controlling them
A wastegate actuator is still the fundamental hardware component controlling boost. NOT the ECU nor the N75 solenoid. The actuator is simply manipulated by the N75 valve according to the control perameters built into the ECU for it, which APR adjusts anyway in their tuning.


Exactly. Once you swap out the wastegate for something completely different, all those control parameters we’ve spent countless hours altering to be perfect for the OEM wastegate unit attached to the k04 are now completely void. 

_Quote »_Just because their current software is not calibrated for it, does NOT mean, by any measure, that there are not gains to be achieved by the incorporation of this product and its inherent mechanical benefits to the system.

Mike, this would be true if there was an issue, however we have tested the OEM wasteage under particularly brutal conditions. One does not need to alter the wastegate to make more boost than the turbocharger is capable of producing. That being said, we don’t even run as much boost as the turbocharger is capable of producing simply because it’s not safe, ideal, or efficient. I don’t think any tuner worth their salt does!

_Quote »_It means simply that in order to allow this application to reach its fullest potential with this product incorporated, you will need to have the ability and wherewithal to tune for it.

Which no tuner does. There isn’t a single big tuner on the market adjusting the proper parameters for wastegate control specifically for the forge wastegate actuator. Why? There’s no point! The OEM unit is perfectly fine. 

_Quote »_All of the _strategies, maps and tables_ within the ECU controlling boost, timing and fuel could all be adjusted to take full advantage of this hardware upgrade and its affects on the boost curve.

Mike, that would only be true if there was a problem with the OEM wastegate holding boost on the OEM k04. There is no problem. 


_Quote »_Here is a dyno showing our actuators providing an increase in boost and power on two otherwise IDENTICALLY modified AND tuned Nissan GTR's. Here is a dyno of gains seen on an untuned Mitsubishi Evo X. 

Hold up, what does this have to do with the OEM k04? 
Mike, that’s like me saying “I have dyno’s showing an FSI picking up more power by adding our HPFP. Because the FSI picks up more power, the TSI should pick up more power too!”
You are making an assumption there is a problem that can be solved with the addition of your wastegate unit but there isn’t an issue!

_Quote »_And there are numerous dynos and datalogs in this thread on another forum showing the potential this upgrade clearly provides with Revo AND even APR software on other actuator equipped FSI cars.

I’ve seen one log of a k04 with your WGA. He is not running APR software. The guys boost overshoots hard down low and maxes out the map sensor just as I suggested would happen. *Up top he actually makes less boost.* What was the advantage? The reaction to the overboost? You can do that with the OEM unit with software alterations! Here is his graph:









_Quote »_This holds true not only for the VW and Audi market, but the Japanese market as well. NOT because European cars are more specialized and more difficult to tune as many people would have you believe, but because it's how the market works.

Mike, the completely depends on the ECU being used. Are you honestly trying to compare an Evo’s or STI’s ecu to bosch motronic? 

_Modified by [email protected] at 10:01 AM 3-19-2010_


_Modified by [email protected] at 10:01 AM 3-19-2010_


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## Forge US (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

The plain an simple answer to ALL of your questions, Arin, for lack of custom tuning options being available in the market, like they are within every other market, is the option to use Revo's software which permits the ability to adjust the agressiveness of the boost (N75 duty cycle), timing, and fueling perameters beyond what your cookie cutter software permits to better accomodate various mechanical changes and ambient conditions.
This is why the K03 cars with our actuator and Revo software made 40 hp whereas a similarly modified car with APR software only made 20.
I don't know anything about the vehicle from which you suppose this graph is evidence of a catastrophic failure of any kind, so I am curious if you can verify that the actuator was adjusted properly as per our recommendations for all actuator purchases. Additionally, I can't fathom how you suppose that an actuator with a 15 PSI spring will cause 30-35 PSI boost spikes. You have provided no evidence to support this. 
Are you trying to make a electronic vs. floor mat Toyata recall arguement out of this?
Spin/market it any way you want, but you your tunes are more generic for the masses, and people are achieving better results with other options.
Again, here comes the arguement that VW's and Audi's are more complicated and technical with infinitely more advanced ECU's and PID/feedback systems than modern Japanese cars ustilizing the same exact systems of sensors and controls. I wonder why then there are ECU reflashes for these same ECU's/vehicles that accomodate more hardware upgrades than you can comprehend. 
Sorry, but I won't let you continue to pull the wool over this community's eyes that YOUR way is the ONLY way.


_Modified by [email protected] at 11:22 AM 3-19-2010_


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

I’ve seen one log of a k04 with your WGA. He is not running APR software. The guys boost overshoots hard down low and maxes out the map sensor just as I suggested would happen. *Up top he actually makes less boost.* What was the advantage? The reaction to the overboost? You can do that with the OEM unit with software alterations! Here is his graph:










Arin its not really polite to use someone's log without his permission, (mine is this case), MODIFY IT upload it to YOUR site as...what...."evidence" ??
I would kindly ask to to REMOVE that from your site, and not using for any future APR comments.
There are circumstances you are not aware of, and failure to do so will embarrass both you and APR.
P.S.In the case the above graph isn't mine (since you obviously forged it,.. no pun intended) i would also ask you to provide the necessary info of the person that provided you with that graph so the people may ask him all the necessary info you obviously have....









P.S 2 I am always ready to see what crap APR have up their sleeves, but this is taking it too far.....


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_The plain an simple answer to ALL of your questions, Arin, for lack of custom tuning options being available in the market, like they are within every other market, is the option to use Revo's software which permits the ability to adjust the agressiveness of the boost (N75 duty cycle), timing, and fueling perameters beyond what your cookie cutter software permits to better accomodate various mechanical changes and ambient conditions.

Mike,
This is false. Revo software does not allow you to modify any wasteage parameters. It only allows you to adjust a multiplier associated with a temperature based boost map.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2005)

Just leave it Mike. They are wrong and it's obvious. Let's not continue to engage them, it's pointless.


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## Noside (Aug 20, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*

well at least you can manipulate your boost and timing maps to actually work together and not be running into ATDC timing with your "perfect OTS software" even when running your suggested components http://golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115971








So yes you can't modify the N75 values but the car takes to it just fine when you start requesting more boost and more timing to take advantage of it. 
Do you want to just stop here since you've just been wrong ever since I first started testing mine, should I remind you how you told me over and over again that my car is a hot mess and near death and destruction when you have basic ko3 stg2+hpfp cars running apr softwarre cracking their exhaust mani's with less mileage and track time then I do lol. 

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Sorry, I'm not in sales. I respond on the forums because I am an enthusiast, I enjoy answering customer questions and because the Engineers don't have the time to answer all customer questions all day long. The information I have gathered, tested and relayed to customers has come straight from our head of Engineering who is a Mechanical Engineer


Just to put this into relation to something, with the subie we change out wga's and ewgs with different spring rates for what boost we plan on or want to run without changing any values for it besides that we want x boost and will make x boost with this. 
Look at Custom BT setup's like unitronic and eurodyne if you want to map boost over the stock map sensor without changing out the factory map sensor they give you a closed loop tune and reccomend an EBC or MBC becasue the closed loop system will take care of the rest. Its cheaper, its easier and it works, simple as that. your implying fear that need not be made. 
First and last post, so Arin go ahead and reply with some more propaganda as it goes un read. 
_Modified by Noside at 9:16 AM 3-19-2010_


_Modified by iThread at 10:10 AM 3-19-2010_


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## Noside (Aug 20, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (tdotA3mike)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdotA3mike* »_
correct me if i am wrong, but [email protected] and [email protected] are "technically" just in sales as well so that would apply to them as well not just Arin.
Also APR's engineers (the ones with the degrees) have posted on this subject in the past, not here though. 

here I'll be brief the difference is Arin could not change his own oil if he wanted to, both mike and especially Angel have a distinguishing history in the motorsport industry. what does arin have a ****ty 2.slow jetta with some bling he probably had someone else put on and a mkv that APR built








APR's engineer posted in my favor previously when arin told me that running a ko3 at those levels with the wga pinned shot would result in early turbo failure. APR techs posts this in reply. 

Waste Gate Duty Cycle - Does anyone here honestly believe that your turbo is safer when the n75 is at 85% duty cycle as oppose to 95%? If your pondering that question, I'll answer it for you, it's not!!! There are countless turbocharged applications that don't even utilize waste gates. The turbos run wide open 100% of the time. That's what they're made for. Turbos die from oil and/or coolant starvation, high EGTs or debris that is fed through them. The primary disadvantage in these cars of running 95% is the lack of head room to cover up small boost leaks or imperfections in the calibration's compensations for ambient pressure and IATs
~ http://golfmkv.com/forums/show...nt=58
see how the middle man can ruin communication! 
Keep in mind at that point I had no atdc timing, but yet another member with apr software shows obvious atdc timing and arin sees no wrong. see my previous link. 




_Modified by Noside at 9:26 AM 3-19-2010_


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## Forge US (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (tdotA3mike)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tdotA3mike* »_
correct me if i am wrong, but [email protected] and [email protected] are "technically" just in sales as well so that would apply to them as well not just Arin. 

Don't let a meager forum username fool you into thinking we're just sales staff.
Angel has more racing experience and car building expertise under his belt than I can even begin to list. If he feels like gloating, he can, but that's just not his style.
And I have worked here for 6 years, having contributed to the design and development of countless products; our actuators included. If anyone knows how they work, it's us,
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## tdotA3mike (Feb 5, 2009)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Don't let a meager forum username fool you into thinking we're just sales staff.
Angel has more racing experience and car building expertise under his belt than I can even begin to list. If he feels like gloating, he can, but that's just not his style.
And I have worked here for 6 years, having contributed to the design and development of countless products; our actuators included. If anyone knows how they work, it's us,
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


Yeah i was not claiming anything. I don't personally know you or Angel. I was just trying to keep this as even keel as possible and not get into the stupid back and forth of name calling.... well this is VWvortex so i guess that its an automatic thing


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## 2.0Ginster (Aug 9, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Noside)*

Why does every thread in this forum asking about a specific company's product or tuning have to turn into this crap? 
Arin I am a big proponent of APR products but your actions are hard to deal with. Your comments and posts often make APR look terrible and childish. I asked is anybody was running this and you flip into a debate on Subi vs VAG ecu's, grabbing at any straw to prove somebody wrong. I honestly think that if you can prove somebody wrong on any aspect of their post than the whole post is wrong. It makes me wonder if APR really knows the stuff you post on this site. If I had a person working like that for me and I became aware of it disciplinary actions would be needed. Bottom line: Other companies make similar products, some better some worse. I don't think this forums benefits from every thread turning into this.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (2.0Ginster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2.0Ginster* »_Why does every thread in this forum asking about a specific company's product or tuning have to turn into this crap? 
Arin I am a big proponent of APR products but your actions are hard to deal with. Your comments and posts often make APR look terrible and childish. I asked is anybody was running this and you flip into a debate on Subi vs VAG ecu's, grabbing at any straw to prove somebody wrong. I honestly think that if you can prove somebody wrong on any aspect of their post than the whole post is wrong. It makes me wonder if APR really knows the stuff you post on this site. If I had a person working like that for me and I became aware of it disciplinary actions would be needed. Bottom line: Other companies make similar products, some better some worse. I don't think this forums benefits from every thread turning into this.

I'm terribly sorry for attempting to answer your question. Any subsequent questions that arrose were from people attacking me for giving you the correct answer. 

Here is an example of a recent technical issue related to the forge WGA.

_Quote, originally posted by *customer* »_
Hi Arin, here is the log i promised using your data logging guide, i am having a very similar problem to MA_GTIMKV. Thanks in advance.




































_Quote, originally posted by *me* »_
What mods do you have?



_Quote, originally posted by *customer* »_
3" ATP d/p into milltek, custom twin-intake, forge actuator (set almost like stock), forge twin-intercooler, autotech hpfp, S3 intercooler, neuspeed pulley and forge D.V.



_Quote, originally posted by *me* »_
That's what I suspected. It's likely the forge wastegate actuator. Actual boost is way above request. The ECU is trying to get boost back in control but it unable to do so. Because of this, it closes the throttle plate so you don't lean out and burn up the motor. When the throttle plate closes down, boost also appears much higher than normal. I'd suggest removing it, reinstalling the OEM unit, reconfirming the OEM unit is calibrated exactly the same way it was from the factory, and then log again.
-Arin



_Quote, originally posted by *customer* »_
I did think this aswell but i only put the forge actuator in as my oem unit was shot and i couldnt get past 16 psi. The boost issue started just before my oem actuator went funny. Getting the actuator in and out was a long job so not looking forward to it. lol. Could i not wind back the actuator a bit until requested and actual boost are more in line and then log. If it helps i use forge's 10 psi spring, not the much stiffer 15 psi spring. Thanks again in advance.



_Quote, originally posted by *me* »_
I'd use the weaker spring but I doubt it will be ideal. The wastegate is a finely tuned item in the software. It's just like changing injectors or a turbo. If it's changed, the software needs to be recalibrated for it to run properly.
Sent from my iPhone



_Quote, originally posted by *customer* »_
kay thanks, i will start with turning down the actuator and if that doesnt work i will go back to stock. Thanks for your help mate, i will get back to you when i've done this. Thanks again.


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## Noside (Aug 20, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I'm terribly sorry for attempting to answer your question. Any subsequent questions that arrose were from people attacking me for giving you the correct answer. 

Here is an example of a recent technical issue related to the forge WGA.


this is just proof of user error lol. simple as that you already posted this once on golfmkv as I know the individual personally he had to ask me which way to move the nut to release tension on the rod. 
Please try again lol. If any one doesn't believe me for knowing them personally shoot me an IM and I'll get you in contact with him 
Arin come on















notice arins response first thing to point at "its likely the Forge WGA" not helping him since the customer obviously wanted to run the product. Instead you could have actually offered some assistance since its already been tested on apr software by a qualified mechanic and shows it works with your software and said hmm well it worked on this guys car just fine even made more power from the looks of it something is installed incorrectly. 

another reason why your are completely unqualified to offer assistance on much less these cars any type of automobile haha keep digging



_Modified by Noside at 10:05 AM 3-19-2010_


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## Forge US (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Here is an example of a recent technical issue related to the forge WGA.


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_.....so I am curious if you can verify that the actuator was adjusted properly as per our recommendations for all actuator purchases.

I called the problem as a misadjusted actuator, did I not?
And no where do I see any 30-35 PSI boost spikes!


_Modified by [email protected] at 1:06 PM 3-19-2010_


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## kayaker10 (Jan 10, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Arin, "I'm terribly sorry for attempting to answer your question. Any subsequent questions that arrose were from people attacking me for giving you the correct answer."


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## iThread (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (kayaker10)*

Ok folks, this is pretty close to being locked. The personal attacks and sniping have got to stop. You can disagree with someone or a company but, making personal attacks is not allowed.


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## jj87 (Jul 13, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Quote, originally posted by me »
I'd use the weaker spring but I doubt it will be ideal. The wastegate is a finely tuned item in the software. It's just like changing injectors or a turbo. If it's changed, the software needs to be recalibrated for it to run properly.
Sent from my iPhone

Sounds like what Mike has been saying....


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Noside)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Noside* »_notice arins response first thing to point at "its likely the Forge WGA" not helping him since the customer obviously wanted to run the product.

Noside, I told the customer to remove the Forge WGA and relog with the oem unit to see if he actually had an issue with our software. 

_Quote »_
Instead you could have actually offered some assistance since its already been tested on apr software by a qualified mechanic and shows it works with your software and said hmm well it worked on this guys car just fine even made more power from the looks of it something is installed incorrectly.

Offer assistance with what? Something I know is not designed to work correctly on the car with that software to begin with? Why am I giving support on someone elses product? The customer wanted to know if he had problems with his software. HE DIDNT. He has problems with the hardware he installed on the car. I offered two potential solutions. 
1) Remove it.
2) Mess with it till it works. 
I'm gunna go get a competitors software, jam a banana in in my maf housing and then complain to the tuner when it doesn't work right. I'm sure they'll go on a huge anti-banana campaign. Total bastards. Who do they think they are?


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## tdotA3mike (Feb 5, 2009)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I'm gunna go get a competitors software, jam a banana in in my maf housing and then complain to the tuner when it doesn't work right. I'm sure they'll go on a huge anti-banana campaign. Total bastards. Who do they think they are?










i would pay to see that!


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I'm gunna go get a competitors software, jam a banana in in my maf housing and then complain to the tuner when it doesn't work right. I'm sure they'll go on a huge anti-banana campaign. Total bastards. Who do they think they are?

That for sure is gonna be an issue...
But for sure we can count on APR to come up with a "tested on a specifically made chamber that no one else has" and hence precisely tuned "banana MAF casing..."
No ???


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## tdotA3mike (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
That for sure is gonna be an issue...
But for sure we can count on APR to come up with a "tested on a specifically made chamber that no one else has" and hence precisely tuned "banana MAF casing..."
No ???










you trust the engine dyno at Uni? or the mustang dyno that AWE uses...








you can't be paranoid only in one direction


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## Noside (Aug 20, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I'm gunna go get a competitors software, jam a banana in in my maf housing and then complain to the tuner when it doesn't work right. I'm sure they'll go on a huge anti-banana campaign. Total bastards. Who do they think they are?

here's the difference the forge wga was already proven dyno tested back to back using your software and components all of them besides the wga, proven to work and provide gains as a result of it being installed. not to mention along with proven power gains that the individual also logged the car on the dyno both pre and post following the order your company says to do so and wouldn't you know that showed gains in MAF, boost pressure while maintaining AFR and still making close to the same spark advance as it did prior. 
You saying you know it was not designed to work properly is just blowing off the facts that have been spoon fed to you showing gains along with proper operation when the part is installed correctly. 
Its done on dozens of other cars makes and models, no one cries like you, so why? Its an obvious notion of what your intentions are to another company and its sad to see. I've never seen you post in a stock wga tweak thread










_Modified by iThread at 11:14 AM 3-19-2010_


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## jaycheetwood (Jun 18, 2009)

Noside, 
Its easy.
APR doesnt make one so it cant be a good product. lol. jk.. sorta..
Vw people fear change.


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## loudgli (Aug 3, 2005)

*Re: (jaycheetwood)*

I have to side with Arin on this.
Is it not recommended by Forge that a custom tune be done to make this work correctly? Even though it "can" be done without.
How many people are going to pay for a custom tune on a k04?
If APR has proven (they say they have) that they can make the same adjustments with software that Forge says they have with a mechanical part whats the point? Other than running the turbo past the range of efficiency with boost spikes and surging?
Even if you were ok with this, would any tuner really tune your car past what most tuners have already spec'd out for a k04? As far as boost onset and boost pressure. I really doubt it. 
Not knocking what Forge is doing but it seems to me that if their was a "problem" with the stock w/g that a tuners would have seen this as a weak link and come up with a solution? Have any tuners looked at Forge's w/g or a w/g upgrade in general and seen any benefit? The only info we really have is APR's comments about it NOT being beneficial and therefore they get slammed for it. 
Just some random thoughts.


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## Forge US (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: (loudgli)*

Here's a few more random thoughts for you then:
- Nowhere on any of the cars with this component properly installed and adjusted have we seen any abnormal boost spikes nor surging. In APR's only supposed "_evidence_" to-date of such issues, it is clear that the actuator wasn't adjusted properly. Even considering that fact, the MINOR boost spikes seen on that car where actual boost exceed requested are no more severe than on other vehicles without this modification that also have actual boost exceeding requested at certain points.
- In no way does this product take the turbo outside of it's efficiency range when used in conjunction with the stock N75 boost control solenoid. Since the ECU is still controlling boost, PEAK output will not increase beyond a reasonable level. You just reach that peak value sooner and sustain it for longer. 
- Custom tuning would be "_ideal_" for this product, yes, but for lack of that option being available in this market, we feel that REVO software is the best option as it allows for the user to adjust various settings to be ideally suited to the new changes to the boost curve provided by the actuator. We have proven the potential with this. It is a known fact that vehicles with properly adjusted boost, timing, and fueling settings, which are the primary perameters modified in a custom tune anyway, will produce more power and still reliably with none of the problems APR continues to claim. APR can repeat themselves over and over again that they feel this product is detrimental, but they have no evidence to support that claim that refutes what we have seen in the real world on actual cars. 
- Not to mention APR continues to contradict themselves repeatedly by openly admitting that tuning adjustments are required to best take advantage of this product and that is EXACTLY what we are able to do with REVO software. To a lesser degree than possible with a full custom tune, but still to a more advanced degree than APR offers!


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_- Not to mention APR continues to contradict themselves repeatedly by openly admitting that tuning adjustments are required to best take advantage of this product and that is EXACTLY what we are able to do with REVO software. To a lesser degree than possible with a full custom tune, but still to a more advanced degree than APR offers!

This is 100% incorrect and truly shows how little about Bosch ME9 tuning you know and understand. Revo SPS+ software has absolutely no adjustments related to wastegate PID loop tuning.
I can't wait till we see the Forge TwinGate Dual Wastegate setup. That'll be a huge hit every sucker will gobble up.










_Modified by [email protected] at 5:09 PM 3-20-2010_


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## tdotA3mike (Feb 5, 2009)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
This is 100% incorrect and truly shows how little about Bosch ME9 tuning you know and understand. Revo SPS+ software has absolutely no adjustments related to wastegate PID loop tuning.


Arin is correct here all software options with every tuner is locked down beyond minor tweaks with REVO through the SPS (fuel, boost, timing)
I am sure you could go out and get a "custom" tune to fit those needs.


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## Forge US (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (tdotA3mike)*

It's curious then, then those "_minor tweaks_" show actual improvements on a boost gauge, and a dyno beyond what APR software is capable of! Making jokes and snide remarks that get a little snicker doesn't support thier claims that this nor our other products don't work, and that their methods are wholely superior, and it only serves to show how little they know about that which they're talking, and how little tact they have. Follow them if you wish, when he refers to you, the collective customer base, as "_suckers_", as if you're not capable of understanding the simple truth that this product works. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by [email protected] at 1:32 PM 3-21-2010_


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## 2.0Ginster (Aug 9, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_It's curious then, then those "_minor tweaks_" show actual improvements on a boost gauge, and a dyno beyond what APR software is capable of! Making jokes a snide remarks that get a little snicker doesn't support thier claims that this nor our other products don't work, and that their methods are wholely superior, and only serves to show how little they know about that which they're talking, and how little tact tact have. Follow them if you wish, when he refers to you, the collective customer base, as "_suckers_", as if you're not capable of understanding the simple truth that this product works. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Modified by [email protected] at 11:36 AM 3-21-2010_

No kidding, do you think Nasa lets the photographer do their talking?


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (2.0Ginster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2.0Ginster* »_
No kidding, do you think Nasa lets the photographer do their talking? 

I peed myself....


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## jpimp61 (Mar 22, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I'm gunna go get a competitors software, jam a banana in in my maf housing and then complain to the tuner when it doesn't work right. I'm sure they'll go on a huge anti-banana campaign. Total bastards. Who do they think they are?

where can I buy said banana and how much is it?


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## dj_spark (Mar 5, 2011)

Back from the deads !!!

I have a shot wastegate on my K04 and I'm still not chipped so :
- should I try to adjust the Forge wga the closest to the OEM one and use a generic tune ?
OR
- custom tune is my only solution ?


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