# 8v head on a 9a 16v block?



## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

Hi guys,
I race a C-Sports Racer in SCCA, currently equipped with a dry sumped 1781cc 8v JH engine, with p&p head, Bertil cam with Alfa shim-under-bucket lifters and a pair of Weber 45 DCOE sidedraft carbs. SCCA recently increased the allowed displacement of the 8v VW engines to 2088cc (16v remains at 1615cc max) to help these engines be a bit more competitive with other engines in the class.
So my question is how to I best exploit this situation on a reasonable budget? There is a 9a 16v short block available locally that looks to be in good shape. The 9a is of course a 16v block, but has a bigger bore and stroke than the JH, so I am wondering if my present 8v head will fit onto it without major headaches? Or is fitting the 9a crankshaft to my engine a better bet, even though it leaves nearly 100cc on the table?
Thanks in advance! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Stan


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (CSRracer)*

Is there a maximum compression ratio rule in your class? The 8v head fits on to the block okay, the distributor and intermediate shaft are the only things you need to mess about with but the 16v's flat topped pistons would give you a very high compression ratio around 14:1 more if your head's been milled. If set-up properly and with good racing fuel, this can make for a very effective race engine in the 200bhp ballpark.
Fitting the 9a crank into your current engine would require new custom pistons because the pin height on the 1.8L pistons would be too big with the additional stroke. 
Personally, if the rules allow the ultra high compression, I'd use the 9a block, along with your current dry sump system. If that's not allowed, I'd get custom 83.5mm pistons for the 9a block that would give you the maximum allowed compression ratio. Or better yet, do that for an obd1 ABA block.


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## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (ABA Scirocco)*

Thanks for the quick reply!








CR is unrestricted in CSR, and most folks in the class are in the 12+ to 14+ to 1 range, so it sounds like this combo might be a good bet. The seller is concerned that the head might not fit the block, though. Are you pretty sure that the JH head will fit the 9a block? (Although to tell the truth I'm not too concerned about being out $50 if I buy the short block and it doesn't fit...







)
In the range of 200 hp would be awesome, as my Mk9 gearbox is rated to 190...though I can upgrade its internals to 240 if needed.
Oops! Forgot to say that I normally run 110 octane leaded racing gas, but can get 112 just as easily. What would need to be done to the distributor and intermediate shaft? I currently use a modified IS to drive my dry sump pump.
Stan


_Modified by CSRracer at 9:16 AM 6-23-2007_


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## L8 APEKS (Feb 2, 2006)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (CSRracer)*

Stan, make sure you DYNO this bad boy if you go through with the conversion! Sounds like a fun one!


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## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (L8 APEKS)*

Here's some eye candy...1200lbs of mid-engine Volkswagen powered fury!


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (CSRracer)*

Yes, I'm 100% certain the JH head fits the 9a block. A friend of mine has been running that combo and similar 8v/16v hybrids on his circle track cars for many years with considerable success. 
You need to run an 1.8L-8v timing belt because it's the belt that's the right length for that engine configuration. But because the belt width, tooth shape and spacing on the 8v belt is different from the 16v belt, you need to swap over the 8v belt sprockets. This is where the problem with the intermediate shaft pops up, the end of the shaft where the sprocket attaches is different on a 16v than it is on an 8v so in order to fit the 8v sprocket, you need to run an 8v intermediate shaft for this, an ABA shaft is your best bet. 
As for the distributor, check out the distributor page on my website, there I outline the distibutor options for the 2.0L block. For a race engine that seldom sees less than 4000rpm, a locked distributor works quite well so I'd suggest an Audi 3a distributor or a modified ABA distributor. These engines (at least my friend's) seem to like about 35° advance, that makes starting a bit difficult so you need to get the engine up to full cranking speed before you energize the ignition circuit. If you want or need an advance curve something like an MSD 8980 or 8981 timing computer will give you that.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (ABA Scirocco)*

I just noticed the bit about the intermediate being modified to run the dry sump system so I guess you'll be wanting to reuse that shaft. In order to do that in a 2.0L block, you'll need to make an additional modification to the shaft that will allow for that, that's covered on my website too. With that shaft, you'll need to run a distributor that has a 1.8L gear on it.


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## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (ABA Scirocco)*

Thanks...I'm reading your dizzy page now, and I'll upload a photo of the "front" side of the engine shortly to show you where everything is. (Of course, that's the left side in my car...)


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## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (CSRracer)*

Here is the left side of the engine as installed in my car. The dry sump pump is at lower center. I have a complete extra dry sump setup, so I will be able to mock everything up on the short block before installation. I have a mill and lathe as well, so can make any adapters I might need.
My present engine's distributor is locked at 36 degrees, so backing it off a smidgin is no sweat. Heck, with the Bertils 604 camshaft (.472 lift and 298 degrees duration) the engine won't even idle below 2000 RPMs, and can be a bit temperamental to start...








THis is sounding like fun! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## racingvw92 (Apr 17, 2003)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (CSRracer)*

Love the car! I currently do not drive on the track but I do crew for a family out here on the east coast racing F-bodies. My love is VW though and I would love to race one soon. I seen many C and D sports, but never know what the power plant is. It be cool if you put a few VW stickers on it. I thought they were all motorcycles engines. Is the are competitive?


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (CSRracer)*

That's almost exactly what I expected to see. To put that dry sump pump on a 9a block, you might need to fabrication a new mounting plate for the pump. Depending the build date on the 9a, the holes in the block in that area may be different. 
For the distributor, I'd modify your intermediate shaft as shown on my website, get an Audi 3a distributor or modified ABA distributor and put the distributor gear from your existing distributor on to the 2.0L distributor. 
If you decide to make an adapter ring for your existing distributor instead, most adapter rings partially block off the lubricating hole on the distributor body, this may be why some people have problems with adapters so, pay special attetion to this area.


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## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

they fit like they were made for each other, which I guess they pretty much were.
















Except for the little piece of the block that hangs out past the head, next to the silver colored piece of the headgasket.


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## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (racingvw92)*

Most DSRs use motorcycle engines, and the latest ones are making 200 hp at about 950 lbs. You can use auto engines in the class, but they are not competitive. Front-line CSRs use an Atlantic engine (usually Toytoa 4age or Cosworth BDD) making about 245 hp at 1300 lbs.
Older CSRs like mine use an array of underpowered engines like my VW. I have fun but I am not competitive. Bumping up from 1781cc to 2032cc would help, though!


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (CSRracer)*

Sounds like blast! Keep us posted.


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## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (ABA Scirocco)*

Thanks for the help, guys...the seller just contacted me and I will be picking up the short-block tomorrow night. I'll bring you up to date then.
Cheers! Stan


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## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (MkIIRoc)*

Kris, I just got done reading your build-thread, and must say that I sure appreciate all your documentation...thanks!
Good to see things have loosened up a bit in on-base housing. Back in the day (I flew Deuces at Beale 20 years ago) you couldn't do anything beyond washing and vacuuming your car in housing...had to go to the self-help center.
I have a question about your build. In this photo...








I can't see any oil drain holes where the JH head gasket is sitting on the block. Does all this line up and work okay (and I just can't see it in the photo), or did you have to fill in and redrill (like fitting a 1.8 head on a 1.6 block)?
Also, where did you get the fully prepped Eurospec head?
Couple of observations about sidedrafts. First, they are all very sensitive to anything solid intruding into the space in front of the trumpets. If your firewall is within about 3" of the mouths of the trumpet you engine is not getting all the air it could if there was more space. That's one reason why the guy with the 12.2 car has such a huge airbox built for his carbs. The other thing is what size carbs and venturis are you running? IIRC, the thread says the carbs are DHLAs, but doesn't list the size. If you are running 40s, or the venturis are too small, they will choke off high-RPM airflow. The motor won't lean out if it's jetted right, but it quits making power before the cam is done.
Anyway, I am only about an hour west of you and would love to see your car and pick your brain about the engine. Drop me a line at scc1909 at yahoo dot com and let's get together.
Thanks! Stan


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## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

Haha, yes I have a special arrangement with the housing "nazi's". I've recieved some notices, but went there with my supervisor and explained how it's an off road vehicle, on a trailer, and fully inside my carport. And their housing bylaws specifically said this was alright. Problem is, they meant more like 4 wheelers or a boat








Yes, I noticed that when I took the picture...Everything lines up, must have been some funky lighting. If you notice, it looks like the coolant holes are blocked as well, but they're not.
Luckily, I found the eurospec head on ebay for a really good price, as it was brand new in the box.
The sidedrafts have about 3-4" of space, not the best setup. I'm working on cutting the firewall, and pushing it in. Possibly putting an airbox in as well. The carbs are 40mm, as I bought them without doing much research first, and I'm running 37mm chokes that I had custom bored. The car was not leaning out as suspected a few weeks ago, and I'm still learning, as this is my first carbed motor, and I've only made about 10-12 passes with it so far. I'm picking up a new long block from the guy with the rabbit next weekend, so I can go through and over bore this one. Then I will try to find some larger carbs.
I'll shoot you an email with some more info.


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## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (MkIIRoc)*

Cool...I thought it was probably the lighting in the photo since you didn't say there was anything special had to be done to build the JH-9a hybrid.
Yeah, I thought your trap speed looked a bit slow for the e.t., and I would suspect that the engine is laying down at the big end due to lack of air. The 40's are fine for a street/strip car, but aren't really right for a pure racing engine of that displacement and power. 45mm carbs will flow 20% more air at max flow than will 40's, even with the same chokes, so I bet that's part of what's happening. In any case, boxing in the firewall and feeding it cold air from the base of the windshield will help any carb setup.
Couple quick questions...
Have you cc'd the head to get an exact CR?
Do you use a metal head gasket like hondaproof suggests, or a stock one?


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## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

Well, the trap isn't too bad for the time. Most 8v's run a low trap to et. Kossob ran a [email protected] But there is room for improvement. Granted, my vette runs [email protected], but I'm halfway down the track before that thing is off the line. Most of my wins are holeshots. Just about everyone I beat is catching up fast, they just can't get out of the hole like 1700lb car on slicks can








You also have to take into account that I started building this car when I was an E-3 with $500 a paycheck and a wife in college, so 40's seemed pretty good to me








stock will hold up just fine; I use metal because they are easier to find around here. Kragen doesn't stock normal gaskets, and I get stuff from Techtonics on the second day after ordering.
I have not cc'd the head, but I would say around 32-33cc's. A stock JH is about 30. The valves are dished very slightly. The valves are also very lightly unshrouded. I will be cc'ing and polishing/evening them next weekend when I tear it down, so I'll let you know.


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## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (CSRracer)*

Mine is a 9a bottom end with dished pistons and an ABA head with a 3A intermediate shaft and 9A oilpump and drive gear dist is not needed any longer








http://www.hostdub.com/albums/...2.jpg


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## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

I'll be switching to a crank trigger ignition soon as well. I wish I would have written down all the specifics as far as what distributors, jack shafts, oil pumps, etc. work with what setup. I remember that being a headache to trade and buy all the required parts on here, and wouldn't be able to do it again without going through all the ass pain.


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## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (MkIIRoc)*

Kris, I apologize if my comments came off as sounding like criticism, because they certainly weren't meant as such. Instead, I was thinking of the steep learning curve I had to go through to make power with carbs on my engine and was sharing what I've discovered. It was a real eye opener to see the power difference on the dyno with the bigger carbs.
33cc's? Wow...that's like 15:1. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I'm running like 9.5:1 now. No wonder my buddy (14:1 Rabbit) is ragging on me.








eurotrashrabbit, that is one sweet looking setup. Unfortunately, our rules restrict us to non-crossflow heads. But your comments remind me...does the 9a have a crank trigger? That's legal for us (ignition is unrestricted) and the dyno guys say it makes several more hp above about 6500 RPM (I shift the JH at 7500).


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## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

I take everything as criticism. You just have to listen to the good, and ignore the bad







. Your absolutely right about the carbs, I was just pointing out my reason. Trust me, I wish I would have just bought some 45's from the get go. Honestly, I really don't know much about carbs. But it is good fun to learn. That's how I learned about nitrous. Big shot on a cheap engine. Had a few backfires, but I learned my lessons.
Without different points of view, the automotive tuning world would be quite boring and unimaginative.


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## Shrttrackr (Oct 13, 2004)

not to highjack this thread, but what ARP Stud kit should i purchase if i am building a 9a JH setup?
also, will the 1.6/1.7L oil pumps work?
do the 1.6L/1.7L IS's work? or do i have to use the ABA shaft? -- OK just saw ABA's site -- can i machine the IS from the 1.6 the same way or is the 1.8 shaft different yet?
thanks
craig


_Modified by dirtoval.com at 9:40 PM 6-24-2007_


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## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

8v stud kit.
I THINK i'm running an aba oil pump/shaft. I know I'm using a 3a distributor with an MSD timing controller.


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## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: (CSRracer)*

No trigger wheel on a 9a but you can use an ABA block OBD2 2.0l and it has the trigger wheel the only thing is you will have to buy is pistons for higher compression. I am running a 1991 ford escort ignition (Ford EDIS) with megasquirt and mounted the triggerwheel to the crank pulley and made a bracket for the VR sensor







I only twist my 8v to about 7-7500rpms the cam is kind of small 288 duration and .460 lift but the resolution on the ignition is good to 9000 rpms


















_Modified by eurotrashrabbit at 11:25 PM 6-24-2007_


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## hondaproof (Jun 20, 2007)

*Re: (MkIIRoc)*

stock will hold up just fine; I use metal because they are easier to find around here. Kragen doesn't stock normal gaskets, and I get stuff from Techtonics on the second day after ordering.thanks for the answer
do u think the cis is good to run for the street if i set the air box at 5mah


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## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

I have no idea what you just said








5mah?


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## hondaproof (Jun 20, 2007)

*Re: (MkIIRoc)*

me either soppose to say 5ma for milliamps on the fuel pres. regulator


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## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*I picked up the 9a block*

I picked up the block last night. The seller told me that the engine had 120,000 miles on it when he pulled the engine. The engine turns over very smoothly, and there are no signs of overheating. The crosshatch still looks fresh, as you can see in this photo.








This thing is going to provide some serious squeeze. The pistons look like they stand proud of the block by about 20-thou...
















A major test was passed when the dry sump pan fit perfectly. I was concerned that the added stroke might result in an interference issue, but the motor turns over fine without any contact. Later I will add some clay to the rod bolt nuts to see just how much clearance there is. If there is enough, I may try a 95.5mm TDI crank in here later. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: I picked up the 9a block (CSRracer)*

You should be ok with a tdi crank but I don't think you will need the extra stroke


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## hondaproof (Jun 20, 2007)

will this motor hold up as a weekend warrior. only drove on fri nite sat nite and some sunday drag racing. please let me know i already have everything. i plan on useing either tt 288 hryo cam or autotech 270 which i already have. my head is done just need to resurface if i break it. loose any info is taken seriuosly. i have been debateing on this setup for awhile now
note to self proofread








_Modified by hondaproof at 4:03 PM 6-25-2007_


_Modified by hondaproof at 4:27 PM 6-25-2007_


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## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: I picked up the 9a block (eurotrashrabbit)*


_Quote »_You should be ok with a tdi crank but I don't think you will need the extra stroke

Built to the limits of the CSR rules, these 8v non-crossflow engines will produce about 100 hp per liter of displacement, so added displacement means more power...to the tune of about 1 hp for every added 10cc of displacement. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
For example, the stock 9a block's bore and stroke is 82.5mm by 92.8mm. That's 4.125x4.125x3.14159x9.28x4 = 1984cc, or roughly roughly 198 hp. Overbore it 1mm and you get 2033cc, or 203 hp. Now, drop in a 95.5mm crank and you get 2092cc with the 1mm overbore, or 209 hp, a jump of 11 hp from the stock bore & stroke.
That's edging past the max allowed displacement, though, so I may have to cut the bore down to .5mm over to keep from busting the limit. Furthermore, my gearbox is rated to only 190 hp, so I don't want to go completely crazy...


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: I picked up the 9a block (CSRracer)*

Relative to a lot of other popular 2.0L engines, VW engines have a fairly long stroke and small pistons, that means there's not a lot of space available for valves and this places a natural upper limit on the amount of air flow the head is capable of, and that of course places an upper limit on the amount of power the head will support. At around 200bhp, you are rapidly approaching maximum power, adding displacement may improve the width and distribution of the power band but peak horsepower will no longer improve in the linear fashion you describe.


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## hondaproof (Jun 20, 2007)

*Re: I picked up the 9a block (ABA Scirocco)*

but is the 1.8 hyrdo head and 9a block reliable


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## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: I picked up the 9a block (ABA Scirocco)*

Actually, my comments are based on dyno results for fully built VW 8v non-crossflow road race engines from 1600cc to 2088cc. The 1.6's will rev to 9000 RPM in road race trim and make 170+ hp, or more than 105 hp per liter. The 1.8L motor is typically shifted at 7500-8000 and makes a bit over 180 hp, or again a bit over 100 hp per liter. Curious about the bigger motors, I called a well known road race engine builder in Maryland today to ask about his 2.1L motors. With good rods and forged pistons they max out at 213 hp, which is just above the 100 hp per liter line. So, at least within the range of displacements we're talking about here, power is pretty linear with displacement on all-out race motors. And since I am up against 250 hp 4AGE and Cosworth engines (at 100 lbs more weight), every little bit helps!


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## hondaproof (Jun 20, 2007)

*Re: I picked up the 9a block (CSRracer)*

please give me the downlow


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## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

honda-
I wouldn't build this for a street car. Gas will start hurtin really bad. I have about 5 miles on mine, and it hasn't blown up. I can't speak for the reliability. I know of people who have road raced the 1.8 16v/8v head combo reliably. That setup is a bit lower compression, though. If your going to build a setup like this, you might as well build to the max. And a beefy setup like this won't have very good street characteristics once you throw a big cam and ported head on.
I've let a few of my friends drive my car around the pits, and our joke is that the car doesn't have an actual throttle. Just a stop/go switch.


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## hondaproof (Jun 20, 2007)

*Re: (MkIIRoc)*

thanks will a 9a tranny hold up to it


_Modified by hondaproof at 10:32 PM 6-25-2007_


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## Shrttrackr (Oct 13, 2004)

so, what would the safe rev limit be on the 2.0?
i'd have stock crank (9A), carrillo rods, custom forged pistons and ARP hardware.
the 9A stock crank is forged, correct?
craig


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## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: (dirtoval.com)*

I am turning mine to 7500 rpms 2.0L 8v 13.5:1 comp and I do run it on the street and yes gas is very expensive $8 a gallon for 114oct. As for reliability it can be as reliable as any other motor. A couple of things to keep in mind is keeping the engine cool is very important evrything gets heat soaked running it for long periods of time ie radiator, manifolds. If a high comp motor detonates they dont last long so octane is really important. I have about 600miles of street driving on mine and only 3 passes on it and I drove it to the track


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## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

well, there you go. Pretty stout sounding.
What kind of times did you pull with your setup?


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## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (dirtoval.com)*

Craig, the crank in the engine I picked up the other day is forged, and a VW road racer friend tells me that as far as he knows, all 9a cranks were forged, so I think you can presume that yours is as well.
With good rods and pistons and a careful balancing job, I think 7500 for short bursts should be okay if you have fuel appropriate to your CR. As a general rule, road racers use an octane that matches or exceeds the CR. Example: 12:1 needs 112 octane gas...14:1 needs 114, etc. Of course, in road racing one is maxing the engine for 30-40 minutes at a time. On the street or strip you may be able to get away with less octane. OTOH maybe not, as MkIIRoc (116 octane) and eurotrashrabbit (114 octane) both appear to be using the same approach as do road racers.


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## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: (MkIIRoc)*

It was 1/8th mile on 195/45/14 street tires. First time I had drag raced with this motor 9.28 2.13 60 ft, 76.1mph







I am still working on getting the rest of the tuning done but right now it just as fast if not faster than my friends 84 Rabbit 2.0L xflow turbo car running on 10lbs and he has over 100 passes on his car







So I think it will go into the 8s on street tires once it is dialed in. I mainly set the car up for auto xing and track events







Not really a drag racer but it is still fun


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## hondaproof (Jun 20, 2007)

*Re: (eurotrashrabbit)*

im doin it the hell with gas prices will the 9a 8valve tranny hold up


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## buggs6153 (Oct 25, 2005)

*Re: (hondaproof)*

just use the 8v clutch... it'll hold up just like any 020 tranny


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## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: (hondaproof)*

Mine does I used a turbo diesel trans with a 3.94 ring and pinion and a clutchnet 6 puck disc


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (eurotrashrabbit)*

With good rod bolts, you can safely turn low to mid 8000's


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## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

I ended up using Scat rods with ARP fasteners but the cam is not huge only 288 duration So I think turning much past 7000-7500 is wearing out the motor. I am going to build another motor with forged pistons , scat rods, knife edged crank, possibly lower compression, and a solid lift cam 304 duration or larger










_Modified by eurotrashrabbit at 5:12 PM 6-26-2007_


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## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

My rev limit is currently set at 8200, I bounce off of it for the burnout, and don't touch it down the track. I shift at 7500, it's about out of steam by then. Stock lower end... pistons, rods, crank. ARP rod bolts for ford 302.
I'll be switching to C12 my next time out. I think the c16 is burning too slow, and my need for timing is showing it.
I too am running a 288* cam for now. My next setup is going to use a cam spec'd after geynes' setup.
My 9a trans holds up fine so far. I had a 4 puck sprung hub in it, but it was used and I smoked it. I put in a stock 8v setup, so I'll see how long it lasts. I'm also running a spool as a bandaid, since I couldn't afford a limited slip or getting it set up.
euro- what's your car weigh? Is it a full interior still?


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## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: (MkIIRoc)*

I estimate the weight right around 1700lbs with no driver, no interior, rear fiberglass hatch,lexan side windows. I did notice a difference running straight 116oct and I ended up cutting it with 93 about 2:1 which definetly helped on the old motor I had in it


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## hondaproof (Jun 20, 2007)

*Re: (eurotrashrabbit)*

anyone looking for a 2.0 16 valve head let me kow cheap or trade for somefin


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_With that shaft, you'll need to run a distributor that has a 1.8L gear on it.

You will also have to clearance the gear so that it does not hit the #4 connecting rod (which it will using the 95.5mm TDI crankshaft).
I will recommend sourcing either a TDi shortblock or an ABA short block since you want to retain an ideal happy reving rod ratio.
Your going to run into problems with the Brabham/Bertile/etc Oil pump to block adapter plate as the 9A has a different crankcase breather compared to your old block.If you want to read up on some good dry sump stuff then click my thread.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (Wizard-of-OD)*

This is the sort of clearancing of the intermediate shaft gear that Wizard-of-od is referring to








And I also agree that an ABA block would be more suitable for a long stroke engine because of it's taller block and longer rods.


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## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (Wizard-of-OD)*

Very cool thread Wizard...thanks for the great documentation. Here is a couple of photos of my spare dry sump pump loosely bolted up to the 9a block. There is about 1/4" between the top of the oil filter and the bottom of the water neck, so I won't even have to plan for a remote filter.
















As you can see in the top photo, the adapter plate doesn't quite cover the crankcase vent hole, so I will need to rig something for that. Wizard, if you still have this drawing, can you shoot me a copy? I have SW2004.








Thanks! Stan
scc1909DELETE at yahoo dot com
(you know what to do with the delete)
PS - Oh yeah, I forgot to say that when I opened the box with my spare dry sump pump stuff in it, the spare IS is unmodified, so I will need to have it done like Wizard's.


_Modified by CSRracer at 9:25 PM 6-27-2007_


----------



## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

I'm picking up another one of these. Here's some pictures. Have to show off my kids!!


----------



## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (MkIIRoc)*

What is that thing? The head looks like a JH, but the block looks like an ABA.


----------



## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

Head is a mexican carb head, ported with 42 intake, 35 exhaust valves by a eurospec tech. Flowed at 165 cfm intake.
The block, is a 2.0 16v, 144 rods. balanced crank, lightened and peened rods, balanced with the pistons. Thermal and friction coated pistons. If I remember correct, 13.8:1 compression running cast alcohol pistons. I think I'm going to throw the eurospec head on for now, and build up the engine I have as an 83.5 bore. Either way, I'm good to go if something blows up







Maybe I'll build a scirocco for my wife to race, too


----------



## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (MkIIRoc)*

Niiiiiccceee!!! 
Sounds like a heck of a "back up" motor.


----------



## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

Well, that will pay me to rely on my imperfect memory. I stated earlier that the max displacement is 2088cc and that we are restricted to non-crossflow 8v heads. Turns out that is not true on either account. Our max displacement is 2134cc, and the head is "unrestricted", so long as it's an 8v.
Sooo, I am now thinking of buying a TDI crank and an ABA head to nudge up against the max displacement and get the benefits of crossflow.








Edit: I presume that since a JH head will fit a 9a block that an ABA head will, as well. Correct? Alternatively, anybody in NorCal have an unloved ABA long-block they are looking to unload? 
(scc1909DELETE at yahoo dot com, and you know what to do...)


_Modified by CSRracer at 7:09 AM 7-1-2007_


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (CSRracer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CSRracer* »_
Edit: I presume that since a JH head will fit a 9a block that an ABA head will, as well. Correct?

That is correct.


----------



## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: (CSRracer)*

That is what I did on my car 9a bottom end with a crossflow head


----------



## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (eurotrashrabbit)*

Very cool...thanks!
I will be going to check out this head this afternoon...ABA Head. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: (CSRracer)*

I recommend to buy an OBD1 head German casting and larger intake valves by .5mm


----------



## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (eurotrashrabbit)*

Good stuff...how do I visually tell an OBD1 head? I understand the head will have Germany or Mexico cast into it...and even I can tell these apart.








I can measure the valves if there is no other way to tell an OBD1 head. What size valves should I be looking for?


----------



## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: (CSRracer)*

Most OBD1 heads are German that is the easiest way to tell and they have dual valve springs


----------



## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (eurotrashrabbit)*

I just spoke with the seller, who said it is a 1999 head from Mexico, part # 037103373AD.


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (CSRracer)*

That head will be a bit more expensive to set up for racing. The OBD2 heads have single coil valve springs that won't stand up under racing conditions and the dual coil springs don't seat properly in those spring pockets. Techtonics and others sell spring kits for those heads that include the dual valve springs and special spring seats specially designed to work in that head.


----------



## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

I have a set if you need them but I would really recommend an OBD1 head


----------



## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

Good point, but I have been operating on the presumption that I will need to cut the head for oversized shim-under bucket lash adjusters and double springs anyway, as we do for JH heads, so that wasn't a real big issue for me. The head turned out to be nice and clean, so I made the deal and brought it home. Turns out my headers appear to match up perfectly, as the placement of the exhaust ports seems to be the same as with the JH, so that saves me about $1200. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I will need to fab a new intake manifold for the Webers. though, as the centerlines of the intake ports look to be about a cm wider than those of the JH.


----------



## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: (CSRracer)*

Also intake port shape is a little different and the intake manifold will not get heat soaked by the exaust.


----------



## Shrttrackr (Oct 13, 2004)

*Hi-jack*

sorry guys, but again i need to Hi-jack for a sec.
so i just picked up a 9A to send to my engine builder. (9A/JH build -- big cam, weber 38/38 carb)
here is what i am trying to do and let me know if you think this will work...
First, i noticed that the pistons stick out of the block slightly(did not measure how much) -- but not above the head gasket -- this is normal?
next, the motor builder wants to do custom pistons -- here is the kicker -- i have a set of NOS Carillo Rods from a 1.6/1.7 -- these rods are 10mm longer than stock (146mm) and have the 22mm wrist pin. is there enough room in the 9A (using a custom made piston) to shorten the top of the piston by 2mm to accomodate these rods and larger wrist pin?
also, i am assuming that the 9A 16V Steel head gasket at Bildon is a primo choice.. is this a correct assumption?
any thoughts.....
Craig



_Modified by dirtoval.com at 9:53 PM 7-1-2007_


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: Hi-jack (dirtoval.com)*

They 16v pistons do normally sit very slightly above the deck, they give the engine a dome volume of something like 4 cc's. 
Not sure about your piston question though, it's close and I'm thinking the answer is yes. Anyways, just call J.E. or Wiseco and give them all of the rod and block specs and they'll tell whether or not they can make pistons to meet those specs.
The stock ABA multi layer metal gasket is plenty adequate for this kind of engine.


----------



## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

I don't know about taking that much off the top. I would have to look at my pistons, but I think that will be getting a bit thin. Could work, though


----------



## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: Hi-jack (dirtoval.com)*

What are the journal sizes on the 9a compared to a 1.6L they might be different


----------



## Shrttrackr (Oct 13, 2004)

anyone know what the 9A rod bore is? or what the con rod journal size is on the crank?
i'll post the stats of the carrillo rods are that i have later tonight.


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (dirtoval.com)*

Sure, here you go:http://not2fast.com/vw/stuff/vw_engines.shtml


----------



## Shrttrackr (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

thanks. looks like the 9A is larger....








how far can you turn the rod journals down on the crank?








specs on my Carrillo's are:
PE Bore -- .8672 (22mm)
BE Bore -- 1.9300"
BE Thks -- .980"
Total Weight: 537
Rotating: 378
Reciprocating: 159

Craig


----------



## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (dirtoval.com)*

Given that the 9a has a forged crank, I suspect you can turn the journals down to whatever you need, though it may then need to be nitrided. OTOH, I measured the BE thickness at 25mm, so your rods should fit in that sense.


----------



## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (CSRracer)*

For those wondering what an 8v ABA head looks like on a 16v 9a block, here ya go! Looks like it was made for it... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 








Here I have flipped the ABA head over to show how well matched all the holes are. Sure makes it easy!


----------



## pointfull (Jun 26, 2007)

*Re: I picked up the 9a block (ABA Scirocco)*

I am pretty sure there is an oil passage that is different. You can look at an 8v head gasket vs. 16v's gasket and there is a small passage in the 16v which is not present in the 8v. But I think that going the direction your going it does not matter. Maybe some one already talked about this though because I didn't have time to read all posts. Sounds like a fun engine I may do the same in the future if it is legal for GP cars.


----------



## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: I picked up the 9a block (pointfull)*

I run the same combination and I ended up using an ABA head gasket. All the holes line up between the ABA head and the 9A block


----------



## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: I picked up the 9a block (pointfull)*

Okay, I see the extra oil feed hole now.








Perhaps this passage feeds extra oil to the twin cams in the 9a head and is not needed in the single-cam ABA head. In any case, I will do as eurotrashrabbit suggests and use an ABA head gasket. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: I picked up the 9a block (CSRracer)*

There are NO missing holes. VW has a rather odd way of getting the pressurized oil into the head, it uses one of the head bolt holes as an oil gallery. Have a look at the gasket detail in that area, the oil comes up through that hole in the block, goes through the gap in the gasket into the space around that head bolt and the oil gallery for the head starts at that bolt hole.








BTW, this picture of a 2.0L-16v headgasket but you'll see the exact same detail on any 8v or 16v gasket.


_Modified by ABA Scirocco at 12:21 PM 7-4-2007_


----------



## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: I picked up the 9a block (CSRracer)*

Actually on the 16v head gasket if I am not mistaken does not have this hole in it. I have used both on my motor and not run into any issues with either one


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: I picked up the 9a block (eurotrashrabbit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eurotrashrabbit* »_Actually on the 16v head gasket if I am not mistaken does not have this hole in it. 

That picture IS a 16v head gasket.


----------



## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: I picked up the 9a block (ABA Scirocco)*

ABA Scirocco is correct. Here I have placed a used 8v head gastket on the 9a block and the holes line up perfectly.


----------



## Shrttrackr (Oct 13, 2004)

so what do you use to block the crank case circular hole to the left of the block off plate? i am assuming a freeze plug that fit the hole?
i am assuming that most are venting through the head like most A1's??
Craig


----------



## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (dirtoval.com)*

Yes, on both counts. A freeze plug to block the round crankcase vent hole, and a vent line from the valve cover to (in my case) the dry sump oil tank.


----------



## Shrttrackr (Oct 13, 2004)

Thank you!!
Here is another question --- i am sending my engine to reputable motor builder (at least for 8cylinders) and he wants to open up the clearances in the crank.
for the 1.6, i believe that the wear limit from the bentley is .003. then you need to regrind the crank to the next size and add new bearings.
is the wear limit the same for the 9A? what do you think is a safe clearance to open this up to? .004", .005" -- the more open, the more power potential -- but this can lead to reliability issues (i.e. more frequent rebuilds). i am currenlty looking to run the engine for 1 complete season between rebuilds -- around 20 race nights.
i want to give him a limit as i know that the GM V8s are pretty sloppy whereas our cars have some pretty tight tollerances.
thanks, Craig.

_Modified by dirtoval.com at 1:30 PM 7-4-2007_


_Modified by dirtoval.com at 1:31 PM 7-4-2007_


----------



## NORSK (Feb 26, 2006)

*Re: I picked up the 9a block (ABA Scirocco)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABA Scirocco* »_There are NO missing holes. VW has a rather odd way of getting the pressurized oil into the head, it uses one of the head bolt holes as an oil gallery. Have a look at the gasket detail in that area, the oil comes up through that hole in the block, goes through the gap in the gasket into the space around that head bolt and the oil gallery for the head starts at that bolt hole.








BTW, this picture of a 2.0L-16v headgasket but you'll see the exact same detail on any 8v or 16v gasket.

_Modified by ABA Scirocco at 12:21 PM 7-4-2007_


Correct,and if you study the headbolts (especcially on the 16v) you will see that the ARP head studs will reduce the oil stream dramatically,atleast the ARP studs that are not undercut.
Not a big problem for me since i use solid lifters on the 16v,but for those running hydro i believe this can reduce oil flow to the head alot.


----------



## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (dirtoval.com)*

Well, when I ran V8s (12-15 years ago) we set the main and rod bearing clearances at .0024-.0026 during rebuilds, and I typically ran an entire season of races (20+) before freshening the engine over the winter. I once built a Dodge 360 at .003 in search of the last possible hp and spun a rod bearing about half way through that season.








That said, I do not have a Bentley that covers the 9a, so can only offer the fact that I run these same clearances in my 1.8 JH 8v and go 2-3 road racing seasons (20-30 hours of continuous revving to 7500+ RPM with probably 20 gear changes per 2-minute lap) between freshenings with never a problem (I check the valve lash every couple of races).
If you are not running a dry sump motor I strongly urge you to resist the temptation to loosen up the engine. Drag racing? Different story...in drag racing you can run looser because you are only running the engine at max effort for 15 seconds at a time and there are no side loads to sling the engine oil away from the pick-up tube. That's not true in roundy-round and road racing, though, so I recommend against it.
Your mileage may very, of course!


----------



## vw_jason79 (Jul 10, 2006)

*Re: (dirtoval.com)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dirtoval.com* »_so what do you use to block the crank case circular hole to the left of the block off plate? i am assuming a freeze plug that fit the hole?
i am assuming that most are venting through the head like most A1's??
Craig









I used a universal expansion plug to plug the hole to the left of the block off plate. Cost about $3 at NAPA. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Most people use freeze plugs though, including the kit from TT.


----------



## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (vw_jason79)*

Wow...that is super slick, Jason...thanks! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (CSRracer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CSRracer* »_
As you can see in the top photo, the adapter plate doesn't quite cover the crankcase vent hole, so I will need to rig something for that. Wizard, if you still have this drawing, can you shoot me a copy? I have SW2004.

Ok that dry sump oil pump adapter plate was for the 1.7 head,not 1.8 8V head.I recommend starting from scratch using this:








My solidwork files are somehow messing around but if you can get them to open then just shoot me an email and ill see what I can do.


----------



## vw_jason79 (Jul 10, 2006)

*Re: (CSRracer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CSRracer* »_Wow...that is super slick, Jason...thanks! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif























Iwas worried at first about the IM shaft clearance but I mic'd the depth and gave a little extra clearance, works great. No leaking so far but Ive only put about 100 miles on the motor since I rebuilt it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
This is the first positive input of anything Ive tried. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (Wizard-of-OD)*

Wizard, I've send you an IM with my email addy...thanks! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Jason, I'm always on the lookout for innovative and inexpensive ways to fix problems and go faster. And I don't give much worry to what others might think about it. Go for it, man!


----------



## woodrowstar (Jun 17, 2005)

the 1.8 16v heads use that oil port to keep pressure at the oil squirter which is in the top of the cylinder head. 
another thing difference in the _"which is better 1.8/2.0 16v debate"_


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (CSRracer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CSRracer* »_Wizard, I've send you an IM with my email addy...thanks! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

replied.
Enjoy the camshaft


----------



## NORSK (Feb 26, 2006)

*Re: (woodrowstar)*


_Quote, originally posted by *woodrowstar* »_the 1.8 16v heads use that oil port to keep pressure at the oil squirter which is in the top of the cylinder head. 
another thing difference in the _"which is better 1.8/2.0 16v debate"_


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## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (Wizard-of-OD)*

Paypal is you friend...


----------



## Shrttrackr (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (NORSK)*

the 9A has oil squirters??


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (dirtoval.com)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dirtoval.com* »_the 9A has oil squirters??

Yes








Thanks Stan,let me know if you can read the files


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## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Got 'em...and they are all working fine...thanks! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## chois (May 12, 2000)

CSR - I don't have the book in front of me. What are your restrictions in CSR? I beleive you can exceed 100hp/liter, as this is pretty acheiveable in full prep Production motors.
I engineer/crew for a freind that runs a 1.5 in production. We spin it to 9500 on stock ignition parts routinely, but have been meaning to test a crank fire setup. CR on this motor is about 13.5. The number one biggest gains we saw were by working with Jose at porttuning.com on getting the cylinder head right.
There seems to be a bit of a ceiling right now in terms of power gains - we can change the area under the curve, but have some sort of choke. Of course running a CIS type system and stock ported manifold through a stock throttle body creates many opportunitys to hit a flow restriction.


----------



## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: (CSRracer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CSRracer* »_Got 'em...and they are all working fine...thanks! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









If you modify them please add the modifications to my thread,it would be greatly appreciated.Thanks


----------



## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (Wizard-of-OD)*

Will do...thanks! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## LT1M21Stingray (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (CSRracer)*

I built a street 2091cc 9A block/3A head motor for my Scirocco.
I made a thread about the build, hope you can use some info I posted.








Good luck with yours http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3297039


----------



## nairmac (Jan 22, 2004)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (Mtl-Marc)*

Got a question about the intermediate shaft / oil pump. So what i'm getting from things said here is that I can use my 3A shaft with the 9A block and oil pump? I originally was going to build up this 3A block i have, but have decided (mainly because of this thread) to do the 9A 8V instead.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (nairmac)*

Yes you can use a 3A intermediate shaft in a 9A block with a 9A oil pump, that works great if you are running some type of distributor-less ignition but if you plan to run a distributor, you'll need to use an 8v oil pump instead.


----------



## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (nairmac)*

Make sure you use the drive gear also. I run mine on Ford edis


----------



## nairmac (Jan 22, 2004)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (ABA Scirocco)*

Not sure why it wouldn't work. If i used the 3A distributor and crank with the 3A intermediate shaft, the 9A pump still won't work out for me? I'm sure you're right, and i'm just looking for info. Just curious why.....


----------



## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (nairmac)*

Here are some pictures of the way I did it


























_Modified by eurotrashrabbit at 9:49 PM 7-11-2007_


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (nairmac)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nairmac* »_Not sure why it wouldn't work. If i used the 3A distributor and crank with the 3A intermediate shaft, the 9A pump still won't work out for me? I'm sure you're right, and i'm just looking for info. Just curious why.....

It's because the 16v engine does not have a block mounted distributor and the 8v does. In an 8v, the oil pump is driven off of the end of the distributor shaft. The 16v's oil pump shaft is much longer it extends into the space that would normally be occupied the distributor shaft of an 8v. 
So, you can use EITHER a 16v oil pump with no block mounted distributor or an 8v distributor with an 8v oil pump. The available space simply doesn't allow for the combination of a 16v oil pump with an 8v distributor.


----------



## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (eurotrashrabbit)*

Wow...I really like the intake setup! Can you share the details with me?








Thanks! Stan


----------



## Fox-N-It (Jul 23, 2003)

TWM ITB's mated to a DOCE carb manifold IIRC.


----------



## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (Fox-N-It)*

Thanks Fox! I run a set of DCOE 45's on my 1.8, so all I would need is one of those spiffy manifolds.
(Opens a new tab for eBay...







)


----------



## nairmac (Jan 22, 2004)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (ABA Scirocco)*

Thank you... i'm kind of a 16V idiot-- they're 'new' to me.


----------



## mittimj (Dec 27, 2006)

Just this last weekend I put a solid lifter 8v head on a 9a 16v bottom end.
I used an 8v oil pump and distributer, and had to modify the 8v pully to go onto the 16v intermediate shaft.
Thing went like a bat outa hell for 15 laps. Got warm so I pulled off the track Melted 1 piston and blew the head gasket.


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (mittimj)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mittimj* »_ and had to modify the 8v pully to go onto the 16v intermediate shaft.

I'd be interested in seeing pictures of that particular mod, got any you could post up? 

_Quote, originally posted by *mittimj* »_ Thing went like a bat outa hell for 15 laps. Got warm so I pulled off the track Melted 1 piston and blew the head gasket.

Bummer. FWIW, these engines can be made to run reliably, a buddy of my had one last almost 3 full seasons.


----------



## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

ABA, did your buddy run the stock 9a pistons with an 8v head...giving him something like 14:1 CR? Or did he put in some dished pistons to lower the CR, and if so, which pistons? Thanks! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (CSRracer)*

Stock 9A pistons and 14:1 ish compression ratio.


----------



## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

Sweet! Did he run any specific fuel or take other special precautions against detonation? I can get 110 octane and 112 octane racing gas, so unless he had to use some super-duper stuff to prevent detonation I should be okay, I'm thinking.


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (CSRracer)*

He doesn't run anything too exotic just VP's C-12 fuel. It's important to get your jetting etc. set up properly so you're never running too lean. He established his baseline set up on an engine dyno and tweaked it at the track. Most people don't have ready access to an engine dyno so if you can get some practice time at the track, bring the engine up to temp, run 2 or 3 laps then shut the engine off and coast into the pits, read the spark plugs, make adjustments as needed and repeat the procedure until you're confident you've got a good set up.


----------



## chois (May 12, 2000)

On the 13.5:1 production motor we will not run anything less than Sunoco 112. Absolutely run it on a dyno to get the fueling and ignition mapping right, and verify that you don't have detonation problems at that time.


----------



## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (CSRracer)*

Chadil manifold I bought it from porttuning. cast is ok but you have to trim the edges of the flange to head to be able to change the plugs I run 114oct Sunoco cam2 for 13.5:1 comp with 9A pistons dished by Collin at TT stock comp on that motor is 14.6:1










_Modified by eurotrashrabbit at 10:05 PM 7-12-2007_


----------



## vw_jason79 (Jul 10, 2006)

*Re: (CSRracer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CSRracer* »_ABA, did your buddy run the stock 9a pistons with an 8v head...giving him something like 14:1 CR? Or did he put in some dished pistons to lower the CR, and if so, which pistons? Thanks! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Wait a min. Using 9A pistons in a ABA block with a counter-flow head. Hmmmm. making me think there.


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (vw_jason79)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vw_jason79* »_
Wait a min. Using 9A pistons in a ABA block with a counter-flow head. Hmmmm. making me think there.









Actually, I was refering to 9A pistons in a 9A block. (A pistons in an ABA block would give a compression ratio in the 12.5:1 neighbourhood because of the difference in pin height.


----------



## vw_jason79 (Jul 10, 2006)

*Re: (ABA Scirocco)*

does the pin height difference raise or lower the piston. If I read it correctly, the 9A has flat topped pistons. Is there any clearance issues with running a counter-flow with a moderate lift cam like a .440". And obviously at about 12.5:1 there wouldnt be to much of a need to shave the head any. I am assuming 112 would be need to run this, or could I go down to something closer to 100? Just curious.
Not to familiar with 9A blocks, but is there a spot in the block to even run a distributor, or do you have to go distributor-less?


----------



## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (eurotrashrabbit)*

Thanks eurotrash...I appreciate the source for an intake manifold! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I see Porttuning lists them as out of stock. Did you call them and have to wait for delivery from Belgium, or did they get it to you pretty quickly?
Those other questions...I'll wait for the experts to answer.








This is an awesome thread, BTW...thanks to all who have contributed!


----------



## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (CSRracer)*

I think the one Porttuning sells come fromRowland Manifolds of South Africa.


----------



## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: 8v head on a 9a 16v block? (ABA Scirocco)*

The one I recieved was made by chadil and it took about 2 weeks to get to me







Rowland is another option


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## Shrttrackr (Oct 13, 2004)

off topic, but kind of not..... are there any aftermarket (or VW motorsport ) ignition boxes similar to a MSD that i can use for a 1.8 ignition? we are not aloud to run an MSD box but i suppose i can get away with something that says VW motorsport or similar....techs would not know the difference ...








of course, i would be using this on my 9a/jh combo.
also, will the crankfire ignition work? where do i find this option at? how expensive? it may not be in my budget for this year, but maybe next.


_Modified by dirtoval.com at 7:18 AM 7-14-2007_


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## Shrttrackr (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (mittimj)*

exactly why i sent mine to a reputable race engine builder. that way, i can get him to come over and tune the motor.....


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## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: (dirtoval.com)*

I like the EDIS ignition it was very simple to wire up and setup


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## Shrttrackr (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (eurotrashrabbit)*

where do you find the EDIS ignition?
thanks, Craig


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## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

Maybe a set of these for slightly lower compression...
They are brazillian, for the 2.0 16v they have down there. Gives 12.5:1 compression with an 8v head. I'm running these in the new engine I'm throwing in today. Pad has been cut off, and block decked to bring compression back up to 13.8:1








The 9a have a very small pad sticking up on the valve relief side of the piston, but are flattop.


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## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (MkIIRoc)*

Oooh, those look good, Kris! Where did you order them from and how much is a set? 83.5mm?
Thanks! Stan


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## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

I'm not sure how they were ordered, there was a set in my motor and this spare set. I can ask, though. I think they are priced decently. 82.5, but you can order in factory oversizes


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## vw_jason79 (Jul 10, 2006)

*Re: (MkIIRoc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MkIIRoc* »_I'm not sure how they were ordered, there was a set in my motor and this spare set. I can ask, though. I think they are priced decently. 82.5, but you can order in factory oversizes

Those are awesome, that would make me a little bit more comfortable than running the 9A flat tops. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: (vw_jason79)*

I had mine dished by Collin at techtonics for about $100


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## Shrttrackr (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (eurotrashrabbit)*

OK...another side note.
with all this compression, is a heavy duty starter needed? is there a HD starter for a VW?
is the Diesel starter HD compared to a gas starter? or are they the same?
for the racers -- are you running with or w/o an alternator on this engine?
thanks, Craig


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## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

I run an alternator. The diesel starter is the way to go. I could barely get mine to crank with a gas starter. The diesel one cranks slower than a gas starter on a stock motor, but fast enough to start every time. It has an internal gearset underdriving it, from what I understand,.


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

We run a smaller Toyota alternator with a 5" pully and a 3.5" crank pully.
Just use the small starter - look up 92 Jetta 16v to find it in most aftermarke parts computer systems, choose the later vin.


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## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: (chois)*

I personnally like the mk2 diesel starters. They are small like the 16v's but have a lot of torque I replaced the stock starter in my 1990 GLI 16v with the diesel unit







Pressing a wp hub onto a VW alternator works too and then use a larger wp pulley


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## Shrttrackr (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (eurotrashrabbit)*

they all bolt up the same, correct? does it matter what size flywheel that you have?


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## nairmac (Jan 22, 2004)

*Re: (dirtoval.com)*

I was trying to figure out how to do this swap and end up with a more realistic-for-street-driving compression ratio. Any ideas what ABA pistons in a 9A block would end up working out to?


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## mittimj (Dec 27, 2006)

wicked low compresion ratio from what I understand.
They are ment for a longer stroke and longer rods. swap them out with shorter stroke and shorter rods and you have no compresion.
Mabie someone eltse can verify


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (mittimj)*

If we're still talking about an 8v head on a 9A block, the problem with ABA pistons in that block isn't the compression ratio, that'd be around 10:1, it's the piston pin height. The pins on 9a/3a pistons are about 1mm higher than ABA pistons so installing ABA pistons would have the pistons sitting about 1mm above the deck at TDC, you'd need to machine a bit off the top of the piston to compensate for that.. And that shortens the distance between the top of the piston and the first ring weakening a critical area of the piston perhaps negatively effecting reliability. Also the pin diameters are different so the 9a rods would need to be rebushed to accomodate the ABA pins.


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## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

*Re: (dirtoval.com)*

Bolt up the same and flywheels work


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## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

Yep, the cam arrived safe and sound and looks to be in good condition. Them are some biiiiiggg lobes...!


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## Shrttrackr (Oct 13, 2004)

OK... so my motor builder will be complete around the first of september. in the meantime, i am putting another one together by myself.
i am taking a 90K shortblock and just bolting a rebuilt JH head (286 cam) on it for a couple of weeks. for this engine, i will be running the CIS system out of my 80 MK1. Will there be any fuel starvation or will the CIS be OK with this setup?
this engine will be my backup for the race motor.
Craig


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## Shrttrackr (Oct 13, 2004)

bump


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## VW Peter (Jul 6, 2006)

*Re: (eurotrashrabbit)*

hmm well im about to buy a jetta with a 9a 8v swap 
for $200
wheel see how mayny miles i get


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## Shrttrackr (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (VW Peter)*

OMG, it LIVES. i just put in my backup 9A/JH. holey smoke, this thing has some throttle response.








it's a 90K Mile shortblock w/ a fresh rebuilt head -- HD Springs and a autotech 286 cam.
stock CIS injection<<-- hopefully, this will take it....i just picked up a 16V fuel dizzy from the yard to put in just in case.
testing this saturday night at the local track, then it is off to a couple of big shows to end the year. 

BTW...if anyone wonders --- i used the Super VEE ARP kit and it worked fine -=-- no one wants these and you can pick them up on ebay for 76 bones.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by Shrttrackr at 9:15 PM 9-17-2007_


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## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

Sweet. Yeah, I ran a 9a/ stock JH head combo with carburetors. best was a [email protected] mph before switching heads. Ran pretty good for a stock head. Stock CIS should be just fine. You should be running diesel-like torque now


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## MkIIRoc (Feb 20, 2005)

*Re: (eurotrashrabbit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eurotrashrabbit* »_I had mine dished by Collin at techtonics for about $100

















nice shoes. I have the same ones.


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## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

Very cool, Shrttrackr! 
My 95.5mm crank should be here any day now, which will give me 2092cc. I won't begin to build the engine until after the SCCA Runoffs next month, though. Too much work getting my other car ready for the big race.
Have fun! Stan


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## chois (May 12, 2000)

Stan, I will try to find you in Topeka next month. What does your car look like?
I will be with the orange Rabbit, also spending some time with the yellow Golf.
247-Parts.com is hosting a VW racer's party on Friday night at Mathis' paddock (orange Rabbit). Shoot me an email at fvgngn(at)sbcglobal.net, and tell me how many folks you have between yourself and crew and I will send the details out to you when we finalize them.


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## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (chois)*

Thanks for the invite, Chris. Unfortunately, I will not be bringing my VW-powered CSR to the Runoffs. Instead, I will bring my Toyota-powered Ralt RT-41 CSR, as it is way faster.
















We will be in the Toyota tent in the north paddock. I own the car, but my son is driving it at the Runoffs.
I saw something about the VW party on another forum, but can't find it now. Can you point me to it? Anyway, the Sports Racer party is also Friday...but I can make time to drop by the VW party!








Cheers! Stan


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## vw_jason79 (Jul 10, 2006)

*Re: (CSRracer)*

Hey Stan do you go to any other SCCA or NASA events accross the nation or just the runoffs/nationals? Just curious cause I make it out to every SCCA/NASA event at Road Atlanta and it would be cool to run into someone that was such an 8v enthusiast.


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## CSRracer (Jun 23, 2007)

*Re: (vw_jason79)*

Yeah, I run SCCA races (Regionals and Nationals) out on the Left Coast, from Buttonwillow Raceway Park near Bakersfield, California to Pacific Raceway outside Seattle. I typically do 8-10 races a year, plus crew for my son at the Runoffs. I'd like to bring my Zink next year and run it with the 8V, but to do so it needs more oats than I can get from the 1781cc JH. That's why I'm building up the 2092cc "Big Block".


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