# WTF is with you people and big brakes?



## TXBDan (Dec 29, 2002)

Never before in my life have i seen a forum with so much talk and desire for BBKs. Whats going on here? I almost feel as though you're all being duped by the sponsors. a 14" Brembo kit on a freaking Golf? Thats the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard. Unless you're simply after the bling factor there is absolutely no reason to go to such an extreme.
Let me be so bold as to post a few opinions.
If you're driving on the street, you don't need bigger brakes. My lowly Rabbit can engage ABS no problem. With street tires youre by far tire limited. I don't care what kind of canyons youre carving, its really tough to induce fade even w/ stock brakes and pads. 
If you're autocrossing, you don't need (or want) bigger brakes. You won't induce fade on a 60 sec autox course. Stock pads bite well and are just fine, especially on street tires. Even with Rcomps, i've had fine luck with stock pads. A good street pad like a Hawk HPS will help w/ modulation w/ rcomps i have found, but its not necessary. MOST IMPORTANTLY, if you're serious enough to want to spend $2k on brakes for autox, you're serious enough to follow the classing rules and figure out where a BBK would land you. Ironically, BBKs arent allowed in the popular rcomp classes (stock and *SP) where they might be wanted, but legal in ST* classes where they would be undesirable due to the low traction street tires.
If you're tracking, you don't need a BBK. If you're doing an HPDE, id certainly recommend a good brake fluid like ATE super blue or Type200 (i prefer type200 cuz the blue is annoying and stains everything). Its unlikely you'd boil even the stock fluid, but its cheap and better safe than sorry. If its your first time, i'd just run stock pads. You probably won't be aggressive enough yet to really get on em, there will be lots of trains, and you won't get as many fast laps in your session time to really overheat them. I've tracked in my 540i which weighs as much as two Golfs and goes a lot faster, in the advanced run group on bone stock fluid and pads before. Yes, i put about 15kmiles of wear on the pads after 5 sessions, but the fluid never boiled and i never felt unsafe, etc. It might feel a little funny at times, but you can back off a notch and theyll come back. 
If you're getting more aggressive on track, then its time for new pads, not brakes. If you run street tires, something like a Hawk HP+ can do fine. Its tempting to go to a real track pad like the HT10, but you might find yourself in ABS too much. It won't hurt anything to runthe HT10s, but you'd get better modulation out of a lesser pad w/ the street tires.
If you're running rcomps on track, go w/ a real track pad like the Hawk HT10. There's nothing better than good pads and good tires. You can drop the F*CKING anchor, i don't care what size rotors you have. I track an 20 year old BMW E30 with Toyo RA1s and Hawk HT10s w/ rotors smaller than my Rabbit's, but itll stop hard and fast all day long. By hard i mean eyeball sucking, 6pt harness required, hard.
Now, beyond this point, (to me anyway) a BBK becomes a distant thought. First, are doing TTs or racing in a class? Does the class allow it? If not or if youre not racing, what will the BBK get me? Basically itll buy you feel and repeatability. Its unlikely you'll stop much faster unless you have super duper tires and a really 'brake oriented' front alignment, etc. What will it cost you? Well the kit itself, yes, but what about consumables? Don't forget to compare pad compounds and options for the caliper, but also pad cost. If youre tracking this much, you're going to be going through pads. Also caliper rebuilt kit costs and time for the additional maintenance.
Choosing a BBK. Is it big and pretty and red? Ok cool. But really, its not as simple as its made out to be. Firstly, you need to check your caliper fluid volumes. The ratio of master cylinder volume displacement to the piston(s) displacement in the caliper is what determines how much pressure and how much travel the of the brake pedal it takes to brake. thats important! if you double the caliper piston's volume, you'll double your pedal travel! I'm not saying a big caliper necessarily has to have big volume, but its something you must consider. If you go big in the caliper, you might need to change your master cylinder to compensate. But wait! the rears! If you leave the rears stock, but increase the front caliper's volume.. you've just added rear brake bias. not something you want dropping anchor w/ aggressive pads. You might be able to balance it out w/ different pad compounds, etc, but it too is something that needs consideration.
Again, this all just my opinion. Its something i searched for but found a lack of on here. I just wanted to post some info to help people have high performance fun and still save some money.


----------



## TXBDan (Dec 29, 2002)

Oh, and modern pad compounds don't gas. There is no need whatsoever for slotted or xdrilled rotors. A good OE vented blank is just dandy.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (TXBDan)*

You people????????????
You People?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111
hehe

Why do folks put on a giant wing? Cause of aerodynamics?
Why put on heavy-ass 19" wheels?

You bring up some great points that have been discussed many times before. Check out some of my articles:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2357867
As well as the FAQ: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=955995
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Anyway, I love my big brakes. They're always covered in brake dust after a session on the road coarse and I'm too lazy to clean them - so 100% stealthy










_Modified by phatvw at 9:56 AM 10-4-2007_


----------



## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: WTF is with you people and big brakes? (TXBDan)*

Most people here dont actually care about performance, they just want a mod to add to their sig line or so they can look cool for their friends. 
OT- Your name looks familiar, did you used to drive an R32? I think I met you at an Audi Club DE at VIR a few years ago. If so, hi


----------



## TXBDan (Dec 29, 2002)

^^yeh, i remember your name from a few years ago when i had the R32 and was looking for tech. Are you the guy who did all the mkiv suspension geometry plots, etc? That threads a great read.
^hey man, yep its me. haha hows it going these days?


----------



## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: (TXBDan)*

OT- Good! Like you I got rid of the VW for a more favorable track car. Its an 88 porsche 924S that Im going to be racing with 944 cup. They seem to be about the same speed as your Spec E30 (which was anbother car I considered) Im hoping to do comp school in February so maybe Ill see you at the track again!


----------



## TXBDan (Dec 29, 2002)

Haha awesome. thats a great car.
I have my SpecE30 built as well and i was planning on doing the comp school in Feb as well and racing in '08. However my gf and i are getting married and buying a house his spring/summer so that might not work out as planned :/ Maybe i'll do the comp school anyway. 
After the R32 i got an E36 M3 and got more serious about track stuff and got the BMW bug. Then i didnt like dual dutying the car so i sold it and got the E30 and the 540i/6. I just got the Rabbit as an econo car and now the 540i is for sale. Fun stuff


----------



## 2 doors (Jun 18, 2003)

*Re: (TXBDan)*

Wow. That's some rant.







But good info. Sometimes people just get brake envy though.
Speaking of sponsors, I was cruising this forum's sponsor's site and saw they now offer a 6 piston kit for MkIV's that costs $2300!







Now, I like the sponsor, and have purchased items from them. If they can convince someone to spend $2300 on brakes, more power to them! Personally, I could buy a whole car for that price.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (2 doors)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2 doors* »_Wow. That's some rant.







But good info. Sometimes people just get brake envy though.
Speaking of sponsors, I was cruising this forum's sponsor's site and saw they now offer a 6 piston kit for MkIV's that costs $2300!







Now, I like the sponsor, and have purchased items from them. If they can convince someone to spend $2300 on brakes, more power to them! Personally, I could buy a whole car for that price.

Yeah I thought that was pretty crazy too. It gets even worse when you factor in the cost of a set of rotor rings and pads for each season!

But look at all those Porsche chumps who spend $10,000 on a factory carbon-carbon brake option yet never goto the race track. Now *that* is a waste!


----------



## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: (phatvw)*

No one tracks cars with the carbon brakes because they are too $$ to replace. Ive heard that the rotors are lucky to last a few weekends. Am I the only one that remembers the company that put the carbon brakes on a mk4?


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 7, 2006)

One benefit to BBK's that isn't being mentioned is their ability to shed weight.
On the B7A4's, we were able to shed 8lbs a corner by going with the super bLinG 355mm 6-pot Brembo kit. It wasn't the purpose for the install, but it's a HUGE benefit to have a lighter brake system.
For some of the smaller stock rotors like the MkII's and MkIII's, this might not be doable, but for the guys with bigger stock setups like the R32's, and many of the Audi's, you can certainly shed lots of precious unsprung weight going with a BBK.


----------



## synthetic blinker fluid (Aug 29, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Mike, that is a valid point. There is at least one company that sells a two piece rotor for the G60 size rotors that sheds a few pounds for us mkII people.


----------



## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

i want a BBK because i have a small weiner


----------



## Aquaholic (Apr 16, 2003)

I just want to stop. I want brakes/rotors that will stop as well as my stockers have for the last 100k, but I'm afraid and confused. What happened to the good 'ol days when I could ask for a set of pads at any auto parts store and not be scared with what I walked out with?


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: (Aquaholic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Aquaholic* »_What happened to the good 'ol days when I could ask for a set of pads at any auto parts store and not be scared with what I walked out with?

You started caring about the quality of the parts you put on your car








Any "lifetime" pad will outlast OE pads, but they'll be harder, have a lower cF and won't perform to the levels we've grown accustomed to. Friction material is a pretty high tech mfg industry ... we have more options now, and the good stuff costs a bit more ...


----------



## chois (May 12, 2000)

*Re: (NOVAdub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NOVAdub* »_No one tracks cars with the carbon brakes because they are too $$ to replace. Ive heard that the rotors are lucky to last a few weekends. Am I the only one that remembers the company that put the carbon brakes on a mk4? 

Carbon brakes don't wear out. Porsche considers them to have a service life about equal to the car.
I have driven a current 911TT w/carbon-ceramic brakes on the track. HOLY SHT can they suck the eyeballs out of your head.
I have been barely satisfied with Hawk Blue 9012, trying HT-10 next time out, and looking for something with more initial bite (like the old Performance Friction Compound 83 had).


----------



## jamesb (Mar 14, 2001)

*Re: (chois)*

you might like the carbotech xp10. I had them they had great intial bite and held out very well to fade but I didnt like the modulation I had with them (YMMV.)


----------



## chois (May 12, 2000)

We have been making Hawk DTC-70s fit on Chuck's solid rotor car, and it has about the right bite to it. BHP Brakes may have something that works correctly. Chris A will be testing prototypes sometime this week at the Runoffs.


----------



## jamesb (Mar 14, 2001)

*Re: (chois)*

thats not too bad. I dont find the blues wanting and they work for my driving style. that may change as I gain more experience and speed, but for now I think I have what I need.
Though I have thought about carbotechs getting one more try with the xp12s.


----------



## TXBDan (Dec 29, 2002)

Blues have some nasty brake dust and it turns to cement if it gets wet.
HT10s are a solid performer and i'm happy w/ them, but i hear from the bimmerworld guys that the new Hawk DTCs are where its at.


----------



## jamesb (Mar 14, 2001)

*Re: (TXBDan)*

Its a race car, I could care less. I clean the rims every time I have fresh rubber mounted, thats about it.
I may try HT10, but the DTC are probably too much for my car.


----------



## TXBDan (Dec 29, 2002)

Yeh they recommended DTC-60s for the E30 so i'd definitely go w/ those or the HT10s for the Golf, not the DTC70s


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (TXBDan)*

Just got back from the track with my big R32 brakes
Hawk Blue 9012 front pads
Hawk HPS rear pads
Bridgestone RE050A summer street tires
After a cool-down lap, the brake rotor temperatures were ~700°F front and ~350°F rear






















No fade or anything. Works really well!


----------



## cheapthrills (Sep 27, 2005)

I have a question about big brakes. It seems as though I would get an intelligent answer here. Currently on my mk3 S/C golf I have 11 inch rotors with Girling 60 calipers, (I will also be bumping power up significantly). The car is track destined & my drums are shot so I am going to do a rear disc conversion. I thought about the standard 8.9inch swap but I have been hearing about an 11 inch rear disc setup from eurospec. I called Bahn Brenner & they said there is definitely an improvement over the stock disc setup. Would this be untrue? The other thing is that the rotors are drilled & slotted (unfortunately). Would this actually be enough of a reduction in surface area to negate the 11 inch size?
-Looking for intelligent responses & thank you as always


----------



## NOVAdub (Jul 28, 2003)

*Re: (cheapthrills)*

Personally Id leave the rears stock. You dont need big brakes back there.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (cheapthrills)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cheapthrills* »_I have a question about big brakes. It seems as though I would get an intelligent answer here. Currently on my mk3 S/C golf I have 11 inch rotors with Girling 60 calipers, (I will also be bumping power up significantly). The car is track destined & my drums are shot so I am going to do a rear disc conversion. I thought about the standard 8.9inch swap but I have been hearing about an 11 inch rear disc setup from eurospec. I called Bahn Brenner & they said there is definitely an improvement over the stock disc setup. Would this be untrue? The other thing is that the rotors are drilled & slotted (unfortunately). Would this actually be enough of a reduction in surface area to negate the 11 inch size?
-Looking for intelligent responses & thank you as always

11" solid/cross-drilled will have more mass and surface area than an 8.9" solid rotor. If you can possibly get non-drilled that would be ideal of course. Chances are that 8.9" rear with race pads will be OK. The 8.9" rotors are only about $12 each so really no risk in trying them out. You can always buy the 11" later and re-use everything you bought for the 8.9" setup.
You should focus your efforts on the front axle.


_Modified by phatvw at 3:39 PM 10-15-2007_


----------



## cheapthrills (Sep 27, 2005)

I was thinking the same thing about going bigger later, but the kit that its sold in has diiferent bearings, at least from what I understand. That is why I want to make the right choice now. What im really getting at is if there would be an negative effect in having rear rotors the same size as in the front? Or would there be zero benefit to this?
-thanks


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (cheapthrills)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cheapthrills* »_I was thinking the same thing about going bigger later, but the kit that its sold in has diiferent bearings, at least from what I understand. That is why I want to make the right choice now. What im really getting at is if there would be an negative effect in having rear rotors the same size as in the front? Or would there be zero benefit to this?
-thanks

Negative is the added unsprung weight and you may lose the ability to use 14" wheels which are nice and lightweight for the track!
Other than that, you can fine-tune brake bias with a valve or different pad choice on front axle vs rear axle. But you have to TEST all this on YOUR car. Don't expect miracles with bigger brakes. You can actually reduce your braking performance if the bias isn't setup right.
Test, test, and test again. The time investment is more important than the dollar investment.


_Modified by phatvw at 6:49 PM 10-15-2007_


----------



## gomi_otaku (Apr 18, 2004)

*Re: WTF is with you people and big brakes? (TXBDan)*

And the point of this rant is ? Why do we do anything to our vehicles?


----------



## jamesb (Mar 14, 2001)

*Re: WTF is with you people and big brakes? (gomi_otaku)*

Because many of us hear that someone needs a BBK before they can hit the track. Which is completely untrue. I race 10/10ths with stock MK2 front vented disks with a very agressive compound on it and stock rear disks with the cheapest set of pads I could find and I still can manage my brake fade for 16 laps racing someone hard. At a track day you may push the car but your not trying to out-brake people into a corner so you can always afford to drive 9/10ths to keep that little bit of braking reserve for that one lap when you need it.


----------



## collins_tc (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: (TXBDan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TXBDan* »_Blues have some nasty brake dust and it turns to cement if it gets wet.

I can verify this. It looked like Silly Putty was forced into where the spokes meet the barrel part of the wheel. It took me an hour to clean one wheel.









_Quote, originally posted by *gomi_otaku* »_And the point of this rant is ? Why do we do anything to our vehicles?









I tend to agree with this. True, the OEM brakes are quite good and more than adequate for the track with a fluid and pad upgrade, but there are those of us who do car shows in addition to HPDEs.


_Modified by collins_tc at 3:55 PM 10-16-2007_


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (collins_tc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *collins_tc* »_
I tend to agree with this. True, the OEM brakes are quite good and more than adequate for the track with a fluid and pad upgrade, but there are those of us who do car shows in addition to HPDEs.


An important qualifier is that OEM brakes are only good for OEM cars. Once you upgrade the tires, suspension, and power, you need to upgrade the brakes too.
So if you add an exhaust, chip, intake, suspension, and sticky summer tires, guess what the weak link becomes? Sometimes upgraded pads just don't cut it anymore, especially on the heavier cars. Some folks with R32 cars on r-compounds easily burn out the OEM brakes even full race pads! So bigger brakes have their merits.
But for the vast majority of folks, a BBK is a waste of money in terms of performance.


----------



## skydaman (Dec 16, 2005)

*Re: (phatvw)*

I installed bigger brakes on my MKIV because I also built the engine/trans and installed a larger turbo almost tripling the stock horsepower so the stock brakes just weren't holding up hauling it back down from 150+mph. I used a two piece lightweight slotted rotor from ECS that was a little over an inch bigger than stock, calipers from an audi tt, stainless lines, Motul fluid, and metalmaster pads. Seemed to do the job quite well.
Now on my track car a Scirocco I have Hawk Blue pads, ATE superblue fluid, stainless lines, and factory calipers & rotor blanks that also work quite well but the car only weighs 2100lbs with me in it. Its not all that fast but its a great momentum racer.
To the OP: Great post! I see big brakes all too often by people that just want to say they have them or for bling factor at shows.


----------

