# Has anybody ever seen a forged crank with the updated chain from the 07-12?



## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

My sample size of about 10 motors shows that forged cranks were only in the early 05-06 motors, but I am hoping that isn't the case. Any insight? 

Hank


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## Streetliight (Sep 5, 2011)

I'm pretty sure rabid rally rabbit checked his crank and it was forged. He has a Mk6 Golf 2.5, so that would debunk your theory. 

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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

edit: I was incorrect.

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## killerbunny (Jul 10, 2008)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> My 08 has a forged crank.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


How do you tell if you have a forged crank? When physically looking at the crankshaft what are we looking for?


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Check the counterweights. At the top of the counterweight you'll see a seam. Forged cranks have a wide seam, about 1/2" iirc, while cast cranks have a narrow seam, about 1/8". 

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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

A 6 bolt forged crank is still a 6 bolt forged crank...


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

So? Pin it.

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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

GM LS motors are 6 bolt, with only 11mm fasteners. It isn't a big deal if the proper hardware is used. Most of the problem with VAG 6 bolt stuff is that hte oem hardware and even lots of the ARP offerings are loose fits. That is fastening 101 on how to lose a flywheel.

Any, I'll keep looking. If anybody has an 07-09 forged crank kicking around, PM me. 

Hank


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## slowgti (Jul 15, 2003)

URHank said:


> GM LS motors are 6 bolt, with only 11mm fasteners. It isn't a big deal if the proper hardware is used. Most of the problem with VAG 6 bolt stuff is that hte oem hardware and even lots of the ARP offerings are loose fits. That is fastening 101 on how to lose a flywheel.
> 
> Any, I'll keep looking. If anybody has an 07-09 forged crank kicking around, PM me.
> 
> Hank


The threading on the Vw/Audi cranks is horrible. Pick 10 at random and 6-7 will be so oversized you can wobble the bolt head a couple thou when halfway threaded in. Drilling and tapping to 11mm or 12mm is what I'm doing in my next build.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

If you take it to 11mm, you could use an LS1 arp bolt. The set is only $30, but they don't use flanged head bolts. I wonder if ARP makes shoulder head flanged bolts, then you could machine the flywheel for the shoulder and truly fix bolt head-to-bore slop without having to pin the flywheel.

edit: 1.8t flywheel bolts are already shouldered....

edit2: the 2.5 uses 6x m10x1x22.3mm flywheel bolts. The arp kit 070-107-2802 is m12x1.25x22.2mm and is for the pre-1992 6-bolt 4g63, in case anyone is interested


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## slowgti (Jul 15, 2003)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> If you take it to 11mm, you could use an LS1 arp bolt. The set is only $30, but they don't use flanged head bolts. I wonder if ARP makes shoulder head flanged bolts, then you could machine the flywheel for the shoulder and truly fix bolt head-to-bore slop without having to pin the flywheel.
> 
> edit: 1.8t flywheel bolts are already shouldered....
> 
> edit2: the 2.5 uses 6x m10x1x22.3mm flywheel bolts. The arp kit 070-107-2802 is m12x1.25x22.2mm and is for the pre-1992 6-bolt 4g63, in case anyone is interested


Try 24v vr6 bolts, I've had good luck with them in the last two builds Ive done. I'm thinking B series Honda bolts for the next one. 

I think dowelling the flywheel is a bandaid, it's not an air cooled crank with 4 bolts.

I'm almost positive the 1.8t and vr6 bolts are the same thing. Just 1-2mm length difference


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

VR6 are 10x m10x1x27. 1.8ts use the same m10x1x22.3 as the 2.5.

The ARP 1.8t kit is shouldered but include a master bolt. I don't know offhand, but I assume all the other kits are as well.


I don't see anything wrong with dowling. Honestly, I think dowling and using larger bolts is more elegant than drilling six more holes for smaller bolts, like Aaron did.

I can't speak for BW, but I recall Gabe saying something about using Mustang bolts.


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

I just opened up another 5 08-10 motors and they are all cast making my total sample 

05-06- 2/2 forged
07-10 0/14 forged










Yeah, making a flywheel with a press fit on shoulder bolts would be optimal. I don't really think the 6 bolt is as bad as it is made out to be, it is the fastening techniques. 

Hank


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Are you only opening cbta 07-10 motors? It's not a very good shot, but you can see the wide parting line on my CBUA crank here. Maybe I just got a freak?


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

Got a higher Res of that picture?


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## slowgti (Jul 15, 2003)

slowgti said:


> Try 24v vr6 bolts, I've had good luck with them in the last two builds Ive done. I'm thinking B series Honda bolts for the next one.
> 
> I think dowelling the flywheel is a bandaid, it's not an air cooled crank with 4 bolts.
> 
> I'm almost positive the 1.8t and vr6 bolts are the same thing. Just 1-2mm length difference





URHank said:


> I just opened up another 5 08-10 motors and they are all cast making my total sample
> 
> 05-06- 2/2 forged
> 07-10 0/14 forged
> ...


If the vr6 ones are that long then I need to find the part number to the ones I've been using. Hmmm. 

The Nissan ka24 is a 6 bolt crank as well, no problems with those keeping flywheels in the bellhousing. The pcd on those is smaller than the Vw. I believe a proper 12mm bolt with a 90% thread and the proper shoulder will hold more than 99% of people here make power wise.


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

I am sampling a few different part numbers, from Beetle motors to Jettas, Cali motors and non.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

At the moment no, but I'll see if I can dig something up


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

11x1mm would be really nice, as you could get away with not drilling, simply running a tap down the threads of the 10x1mm. Pitch would be the same, so each tooth of the tip would be taking out .5mm or .0195" worth of cut


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

Pat, is that an 07?


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

Grab the PN on the flywheel surface of hte crank. Should be 07k101G or something like that


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## slowgti (Jul 15, 2003)

11mm would be ideal. Have to find a bolt that will work. And measure the shoulder diameter. I'll see if I can dig anything up on an 11mm bolt


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## slowgti (Jul 15, 2003)

B and K series Honda bolts are 12x1.0 and 23mm long. I have a set of k20a flywheel bolts at home, I'll measure them up when I'm home to confirm.


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

Nice. that would be awesome. Thanks!


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## slowgti (Jul 15, 2003)

Hank: it is indeed a 12x1.00mm thread. Uhl is .770". Thread od is 0.469". Shoulder od is .471" shoulder length under the head is .105". OAL is 1.030". It has a very nice radius at the shoulder also. Od of the head is .929" 12pt 17mm head. 

Another question. Does anyone have the pcd and bolt spacing dims for an 8 bolt flywheel?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Are you only opening cbta 07-10 motors? It's not a very good shot, but you can see the wide parting line on my CBUA crank here. Maybe I just got a freak?


That looks like a cast crank to me Pat.


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

Yeah, that is why I was wanting a better resolution. It looks cast to me as well.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

It very well may be. I thought I remembered checking it before sending it out. I don't remember it having the thin parting lines common to most cast cranks, but that was a while ago. I will find out soon, though.

Some more part numbers to throw in to the mix. I wish they listed the differences in p/ns, but alas, they do not. Some quick googling shows each p/n for specific years or platforms at random. Makes sense since they should be 100% cross-compatable. Surprisingly, the 101-F is coming up as the cheapest option...

08 rabbit- 07k105101g
06 beetle- 07k105101f >>31.07.2007
06 beetle- 07k105101L 1.07.2007>>


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Streetliight said:


> I'm pretty sure rabid rally rabbit checked his crank and it was forged. He has a Mk6 Golf 2.5, so that would debunk your theory.
> 
> Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2


I've got a 2013 2.5L and from what I could tell from an oscilloscope --it's forged. When I pull the head off in a few months, I'll say with certainty.

Speaking if cranks, does the TTRS crank fit in the suckers? That would be pretty damn awesome...


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Correct me if I'm wrong:

So a TTRS crank fits, but you'd have to use a newer 8-bolt flywheel? Seems like a win-win IMHO...


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> It very well may be. I thought I remembered checking it before sending it out. I don't remember it having the thin parting lines common to most cast cranks, but that was a while ago. I will find out soon, though.


Here is the TTRS Crankshaft:
Engine Code : CEPA / CEPB
Part #'s : 


07K105101P 
07K105101H 
07K105101N


Notice the 8 bolt Hub for the flywheel similar to the 2.0 TSI timing chain motors. Also has the updated chain drive system.









Here is the forging line. This is what to look for as cast cranks simply have a line running through the middle of them about 1mm thick.









p.s. The Code GBBWWB is for the main bearing portion of the main cap so:


G = Yellow
B = Blue
B = Blue
W = White
W = White
B = Blue

Considering this won't be going in the original block it came from (I want to prove what the CBUA/BGP motors can make as much as the CEPA motors) The block will get an align hone and the bearings will be the same colour across the board.



Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> edit2: the 2.5 uses 6x m10x1x22.3mm flywheel bolts. The arp kit 070-107-2802 is m12x1.25x22.2mm and is for the pre-1992 6-bolt 4g63, in case anyone is interested


Anyone suggesting an M11 x 1.5 or similar would need a 9.5mm drill bit which really would not clean up the threads once a 10mm drill bit runs through it. I am not a fan of cutting threads into somewhat existing threads.
For the M10 x 1.0 x 20mm we use ARP : *P7AM0.800-1* 
ARP does make an M10 x 1.0 x 25mm flanged head bolt which is perfect for tight spots (VR6 , TTRS etc) but if I did drill and tap I would go an M12 x 1.25 as suggested above if you want a flanged head bolt not the typical low profile bolt that requires a bulky socket. (you don't need to buy "mitsubishi" kits as you allready know )



Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong:
> So a TTRS crank fits, but you'd have to use a newer 8-bolt flywheel? Seems like a win-win IMHO...


TTRS Crankshaft fits. Built a motor allready using one and yes all you would need is to specify what flywheel you want. The one I did the customer was using an 02J based gearbox so we used an 02S based flywheel from a European 1.8 TSI motor. 


HTH
Issam


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

As always, great information there Issam.

The only forged 6 bolts I have found so far have xxxx101e on the crank. I'd love to know of another known forged, and have the number off that crank.


Is there a 11x1.0mm x 25mm ARP offering with a shoulder that is tight enough to press fit into flywheels?


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

URHank said:


> As always, great information there Issam.
> 
> The only forged 6 bolts I have found so far have xxxx101e on the crank. I'd love to know of another known forged, and have the number off that crank.
> 
> ...


My plan right now is to install a snail over Xmas break and build the motor over Spring break. I'll have everything apart come March to give you a conclusive andwer on mine.

--I may be doing a trans swap at the same time I do my motor --I like the idea of a better fly/clutch combo.


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## iowarabbit (Mar 29, 2007)

URHank said:


> The only forged 6 bolts I have found so far have xxxx101e on the crank.


 i have yet to open her up and check the tooling seams, but give me a day or two and i can add to the sample size... i've got an 07K101E crank in an '06 jetta bgp block.


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

The 07k101e crank is a forged from everything I have seen. Wish it had the later lower chains, but I think proper oil change intervals and the nature of high hp motors being checked more often, using an early motor for build up isn't a big deal.

Hank


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

URHank said:


> The 07k101e crank is a forged from everything I have seen. Wish it had the later lower chains, but I think proper oil change intervals and the nature of high hp motors being checked more often, using an early motor for build up isn't a big deal.
> 
> Hank


Can't you just update the chains?


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> Can't you just update the chains?


Not without changing the gear on the crankshaft and the construction of the crank does not allow the gear to be changed. If you want a forged crankshaft with updated chains/guides then you need to go TTRS unless someone found a crank part # we can use.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Issam Abed said:


> Not without changing the gear on the crankshaft and the construction of the crank does not allow the gear to be changed. If you want a forged crankshaft with updated chains/guides then you need to go TTRS unless someone found a crank part # we can use.


I took a peek at mine with a scope my friends have at their shop. Wish I'd have taken pics, but we thought it looked like a forged crank --that said I'm not exactly an expert on cranks, so I won't be certain until I get the head off this sucker.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

I'll have pictures of my crank in the morning. Anyone have any idea about this? The casting p/n on my head is 07k 103 373 d and the block is 07k 103 023. My ETKA doesn't list any p/ns for these. Seems weird.


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

Look at the number on the flywheel mating surface. You arel ooking for a number that looks like 07k101 and then a letter after it. If you give me that number, I can likely tell you what you have.

Hank


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Chalk up another 08 cast. My memory apparently hasn't been serving me too well as of late. No forging lines. No casting lines for that matter. Ring test sounds good on #1, but poor on 2-5.

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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

So what's the options? TTRS or fall back to the BGP cranks with the older chains?


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> So what's the options? TTRS or fall back to the BGP cranks with the older chains?


From what Isam has said, that's what I'm thinking. The TTRS crank gets you to an 8-bolt fly too.


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## iowarabbit (Mar 29, 2007)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> From what Isam has said, that's what I'm thinking. The TTRS crank gets you to an 8-bolt fly too.


 for the low, low price of $1300. :banghead:
that's a pretty tough swallow.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

iowarabbit said:


> for the low, low price of $1300. :banghead:
> that's a pretty tough swallow.


VW dealers can order Audi parts. Try calling Keffer.


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## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

1300$ for a crank is chump change in the grand scheme of things. In 10 years when the 07k is discontinued and we are all left with the million or so 07k's that are roaming around junk yards, we are all going to wish the NLA 07k TTRS crank was available for 1300. 

In the oldschool i5 20v community, the somewhat rare 92.8 cranks are fetching 1500-2000$ used and oversided pretty easily in the marketplace 20 years later. I remember when you could get those from Eurospec new for 695$, and I remember people balking at the price. I was one of them.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

Oh definitely. On a car with 20-30k in parts, 1k for a crank is nothing. Even then though, as a one time upfront cost, it still hurts. But not as bad as dropping 4k for an ecu, or 10k in to a tranny, 3-5k in to a clutch. God forbid you're paying labor....


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Oh definitely. On a car with 20-30k in parts, 1k for a crank is nothing. Even then though, as a one time upfront cost, it still hurts. But not as bad as dropping 4k for an ecu, or 10k in to a tranny, 3-5k in to a clutch. God forbid you're paying labor....


What ECU are you running Pat? I'm really thinking about running standalone sliced into he stock harness. 

This hobby is why I'm never going to be a rich man. I can't stop.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

None right now - I'm still building. The plan is an m600


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## iowarabbit (Mar 29, 2007)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Oh definitely. On a car with 20-30k in parts, 1k for a crank is nothing. Even then though, as a one time upfront cost, it still hurts.


 oh i'll probably end up coughing it up, but yeah i'm working on a pretty shoestring budget. i'd be curious to hear some input from the bluewater crew since they've been beating on a few high output 2.5T's for awhile now and tore one down fairly recently.


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

I would be surprised if the 800+ car still has a stock cast crank


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> ...or 3-5k in to a clutch. God forbid you're paying labor....


 AINT THAT THE DANG TRUTH!:banghead:


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

/tangent

One of my coworkers is build a Subaru track car. He's doing PRI now to get his racing licence. The car is a first or second gen wrx. It's not important. What is important is that he paid somewhere around $25k for the car when it was new. Since then, he has put $75k in to the car. You would expect a tube frame race car making 700+whp on a motec (or whatever) ecu. Nope. The car has rods and pistons, injectors, small factory-framed turbo upgrade, that $1200 racing spoiler, a bolt in cage, racing seats and wheels, and an exhaust. Last spring, he paid $4k for a used drysump kit, and another 1500 to have it installed. It makes just north of 300whp. But he's super proud of it - it's his baby; but that's not the point. He probably 15k in all extra parts. The rest is just labor....


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> /tangent
> 
> One of my coworkers is build a Subaru track car. He's doing PRI now to get his racing licence. The car is a first or second gen wrx. It's not important. What is important is that he paid somewhere around $25k for the car when it was new. Since then, he has put $75k in to the car. You would expect a tube frame race car making 700+whp on a motec (or whatever) ecu. Nope. The car has rods and pistons, injectors, small factory-framed turbo upgrade, that $1200 racing spoiler, a bolt in cage, racing seats and wheels, and an exhaust. Last spring, he paid $4k for a used drysump kit, and another 1500 to have it installed. It makes just north of 300whp. But he's super proud of it - it's his baby; but that's not the point. He probably 15k in all extra parts. The rest is just labor....


Yeah, I'm thinking it'll be a better long term financial decision for me to go back to having two cars when I pay this sucker off. I don't pay labor very often, but when I do it's always because I have to get back on the road quickly for work. 2 cars prevents that. 

Good mechanics are hard to find --the problem is they know it just as well as we do.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

iowarabbit said:


> for the low, low price of $1300. :banghead:
> that's a pretty tough swallow.


I am going to quote this post for you so that in 5 years (if you stuck around) you can look back at this post and laugh. The projects and the parts required do not get cheaper. You want to use a newer block then get the newer forged crankshaft. When I first got into the scene I had a KKK K24 turbocharger new for $550 and I thought that was insane.....paying $2500 for a new turbocharger today is the norm and I am sure I speak for all the veterans here when I say there is a shelf in the corner of your garage with at least 2 unused Garrett GT turbochargers.

P.S. Hank lets get a VIN# / Engine Code table started with forged or cast. 
All CBUA's I pulled apart were cast.


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## iowarabbit (Mar 29, 2007)

true, it's more relative to where i'm at in parts acquisition. if i didn't still need to shell out for transmission, clutch, and building up the head, it wouldn't seem like such a hit. but i digress...

:beer:


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## JamesS (Nov 18, 2008)

I think I won the crank lottery today. From an early engine so it isn't that impressive.










Looks forged to me.


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## DUBlclutch (Apr 6, 2012)

Back from the dead. Any updates? Was there ever a table created to list forged vs. Non? I recently picked up a late model cbua and assume it's got a cast crank. I'm looking at picking up an early model forged 07k crank. I've found an '07, so hopefully it has an updated chain drive; but I'll assume it doesn't. What are the limitations due to the older chains/guides? 

Thanks,

DUB

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## LVPainterZ (Nov 28, 2012)

*Forged crank theory*

Fun fact.

try to debunk if you guys want.

the oil pan bolts will tell you

T30=Forged
10mm =Cast

does not apply to the ttrs

I've gone through about 60 motors and not been wrong once.


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## DUBlclutch (Apr 6, 2012)

What's a good price for a forged 07k crank?

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## biggerbigben (Jan 21, 2004)

It's not the end of the world to go TTRS forged crank and update to later lower chains. About to pull my motor apart to make the change. Cost about $1800 all in with parts from Audi. I guess the issue for most is the bolt hole difference on the crankshaft to flywheel face. Would need a custom flywheel.. I got an 02m flywheel drilled to fit the 8 bolt arrangement.


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## dorkage (Jul 7, 2009)

biggerbigben said:


> Would need a custom flywheel.. I got an 02m flywheel drilled to fit the 8 bolt arrangement.


Why can't you use a EA888 flywheel? Those engines come with both 228mm 02A/J and 240mm 02M style flywheels.


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## ebradley (Apr 14, 2018)

Does this look cast or forged?

https://prnt.sc/jpcfqg

https://prnt.sc/jpcfp5

https://prnt.sc/jpcfnx

https://prnt.sc/jpcfma

"07k101G"


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## stef 4x4 (Jan 8, 2012)

It looks cast.


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