# Educate Me! Why so much hate on a 2.0L ABA KO3 junkyard build?



## El Cletus (Apr 18, 2002)

I posted this in the 2.0L forum too, but the real answers might be here
OK, I picked up a free KO3 off an early A4, the friend I got it from cleaned it up but the next day the shaft wouldn't spin more than 90 degrees, so they wanted no part in it. I figured they just dried out the journal so I let some oil soak in it, and she spins great with no shaft play, verified by another VW tech friend.
So I become a search whore wondering what I can do with my freebie and I see it mounts to an MK3 TDI manifold flipped upside down... cool there's one for $30 close to home, and now for $30 I've got the turbo and the manifold...
BUT all I read is hate on this build, everyone is all hard for a T3/T4 setup saying the KO3 isn't good for more that 15lbs of boost and won't spool over 4k. But if a stock OBDII ABA internals are only good for 10lbs and redlining each gear is a thing of the past for me, why not boost a little? I'm not looking for a 250-300hp setup in my dub, that's my 66 stang, I like riding low and 2.slow.
So educate me, why so much hate? The way I figure it is the hardest part of this setup is the software, the rest is just an integration of a lot of stock parts spanning 15-20 years. Then once the setup this in place half the work of an ABF/ABA Hybrid 16v is their too.


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

*FV-QR*

A t3 with the turbine of .48 will spool much quicker then the transmission can handle
k03 are waste of time.you have to think of it like this
K03=drinkstraw
t3/t4=garden hose
60-1=fire hose
Stock internals of aba are good to over 300whp.
Stock Compression ratio dosnt like much over 14 psi
It gets hated on mainly do to the fact the k03 is a stock turbo,will never make 200whp on anything 1.8t or aba or abf
Erly has a nice setup its a k03s i think its on 7lbs.

Bottom line is if you never wanna go faster then 160whp do the cheap setup


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## Krazy Straw (Jul 5, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (Daskoupe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Daskoupe* »_
A t3 with the turbine of .48 will spool much quicker then the transmission can handle



but they sure are a lot of fun








and ill alwaws be a supporter of piecing together and building a turbo setup yourself over buying a kit. you learn way more and its WAY More satisfying than if someone else did all the hard work.


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## mechsoldier (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: Educate Me! Why so much hate on a 2.0L ABA KO3 junkyard build? (El Cletus)*


_Quote, originally posted by *El Cletus* »_
BUT all I read is hate on this build, everyone is all hard for a T3/T4 setup saying the KO3 isn't good for more that 15lbs of boost and won't spool over 4k. But if a stock OBDII ABA internals are only good for 10lbs and redlining each gear is a thing of the past for me, why not boost a little? I'm not looking for a 250-300hp setup in my dub, that's my 66 stang, I like riding low and 2.slow.
So educate me, why so much hate? 


It's because as others have said a K03 is a tiny baby turbo. To generate anything over 10 psi is going to create heat which is your enemy especially in a car that wasn't designed to be turboed. And as others have said it's probably a bad idea for the transmission because it'll create quick hp spikes which are bad for your already weak transmission.
A bigger turbo will create less heat and won't spool as fast which will make it more driveable on the street as well.
It'll also make more power because the charge air will be a lower temperature.
you need to buy the book "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell.
That being said, if you get the K03 cheap or free then I'd run it personally. If you've already got it run it.


_Modified by mechsoldier at 7:43 PM 2-23-2010_


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## ziddey (Apr 16, 2006)

*Re: Educate Me! Why so much hate on a 2.0L ABA KO3 junkyard build? (mechsoldier)*

considering it was free and you can score a cheap exhaust manifold, why not go for it? If anything, it'd put you in a position where you'd be more easily able to upgrade to something else.
I'm getting a k26 + chopped audi5k manifold for cheap. Seems there's a lot of hate for those too. Slow to spool, can't boost too much. But it's a start, it's cheap, and it'll still give me 50% more hp easily.
Go for it!!
I wonder if there'd be any cheap ecu solutions for you. I guess that'd be where it wouldn't make sense. If you had to spend big $$$ to get the fueling and ignition to work with a turbo that won't yield that much power.


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## mechsoldier (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: Educate Me! Why so much hate on a 2.0L ABA KO3 junkyard build? (ziddey)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ziddey* »_
I'm getting a k26 + chopped audi5k manifold for cheap. Seems there's a lot of hate for those too. Slow to spool, can't boost too much. But it's a start, it's cheap, and it'll still give me 50% more hp easily.


I'm going to run a K24 at first with a chopped audi5k....There's lots of hate for things that don't deserve it anyways. Like for some reason how on the vortex rising rate regulators don't work but almost every other group of enthusiasts have no problems with them.


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## CDJetta (May 11, 2004)

*Re: Educate Me! Why so much hate on a 2.0L ABA KO3 junkyard build? (mechsoldier)*

Unless you get a free turbo there's no reason to waste your money on it. You can get much bigger turbos for the same amount of money that you'd pay for a k24 or a K03. For instance, on my TDI, I got TWO gt2056vk's for 100 bucks each. Let me put that in reference for you. A K03 on a TDI makes roughly 130whp MAX. A gt2056vk can make up to 230whp.
T3's can be had for really cheap and make up in the 300-400 range. T3/T4 400-600 range and you can buy them all day for a few hundred. What would be cool to see, dual K03's.







If you can score two of them for free that is.


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## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: Educate Me! Why so much hate on a 2.0L ABA KO3 junkyard build? (mechsoldier)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mechsoldier* »_
I'm going to run a K24 at first with a chopped audi5k....There's lots of hate for things that don't deserve it anyways. Like for some reason how on the vortex rising rate regulators don't work but almost every other group of enthusiasts have no problems with them.


_Quote, originally posted by *ziddey* »_
I'm getting a k26 + chopped audi5k manifold for cheap. Seems there's a lot of hate for those too. Slow to spool, can't boost too much. But it's a start, it's cheap, and it'll still give me 50% more hp easily.


I'm in the same boat as you guys. I'm going with a TD setup k24 on my 8v. ALot of people are giving me grief but really for what I want it's all i need. Going from 74hp to 174hp should be pretty fun.


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

*Re: Educate Me! Why so much hate on a 2.0L ABA KO3 junkyard build? (wantacad)*

K03s is a neuspeed charger alternative at best.


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: Educate Me! Why so much hate on a 2.0L ABA KO3 junkyard build? (elRey)*

there are tons of mk4 1.8ts getting more than 200whp on this turbo, pushing it over 20 psi though but the main issue here is not what turbo to get, its what the OP wants, if he only wants to get 50whp more than he currently has with this turbo at 7psi or whatever it might be I think it is a great idea. I dont know much about tuning his engine but it sure is possible, he has spent $30 and change so far and has two of the bigger things on the hardware I say just do it and show your results and as long as you are happy with them dont listen to what other people negatively say.


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *elRey* »_K03s is a neuspeed charger alternative at best.


from the man who has the setup!


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## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Daskoupe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Daskoupe* »_
from the man who has the setup!

I'd take these nuespeeds for free since everybody hates them. Would work just fine on my lightweight MKI.


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## El Cletus (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Educate Me! Why so much hate on a 2.0L ABA KO3 junkyard build? (elRey)*

I'd love to see and hear elRey's setup
After reading all these responses, I'm starting to wonder about when horsepower no longer becomes unusable... without major upgrades. Remember, spinning isn't winning... and 200hp is going to feel different in a MKI, MKII, MKIII, & MKIV due to chassis stiffness and weight.
Anyone can build a HP monster, but I want a functioning unit, I want to build something still torquey on the low end to pull me out of a corner. I would love to see a dyno sheet of a KO3 vs. T3, I'm curious about the area under the curve and where the usable power is. 300HP is exciting, but it's not usable at 6K with spinning tires. Show me where these babies are at 4500-5000.
Lastly, I had a friend with a Neuspeed charger and it was nice, but not what I expected for the money, I would imagine that a KO3 setup on a MKIII not trying to be CARB would whip that.


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

*Re: Educate Me! Why so much hate on a 2.0L ABA KO3 junkyard build? (El Cletus)*


_Quote, originally posted by *El Cletus* »_I'd love to see and hear elRey's setup
After reading all these responses, I'm starting to wonder about when horsepower no longer becomes unusable... without major upgrades. Remember, spinning isn't winning... and 200hp is going to feel different in a MKI, MKII, MKIII, & MKIV due to chassis stiffness and weight.
Anyone can build a HP monster, but I want a functioning unit, I want to build something still torquey on the low end to pull me out of a corner. I would love to see a dyno sheet of a KO3 vs. T3, I'm curious about the area under the curve and where the usable power is. 300HP is exciting, but it's not usable at 6K with spinning tires. Show me where these babies are at 4500-5000.
Lastly, I had a friend with a Neuspeed charger and it was nice, but not what I expected for the money, I would imagine that a KO3 setup on a MKIII not trying to be CARB would whip that.

do realize that tiny turbos with super quick spool, cause wonderful traction issues in low gears. In your case and in most people's cases who who claim they "only want XXXhp" i suggest a t3 Super 60 with a .48 a/r. Full spool (20psi) in the low 3k rpm range. Or get a .63 a/r and add a couple hundred rpm lag to help traction outta the hole and increase mid-range/top-end power. With a turbo that size expect peak torque in the low~mid 4k rpm range and dependent on cam peak power in the low~mid 5k range.


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## El Cletus (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Educate Me! Why so much hate on a 2.0L ABA KO3 junkyard build? ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_do realize that tiny turbos with super quick spool, cause wonderful traction issues in low gears. In your case and in most people's cases who who claim they "only want XXXhp" i suggest a t3 Super 60 with a .48 a/r. Full spool (20psi) in the low 3k rpm range. Or get a .63 a/r and add a couple hundred rpm lag to help traction outta the hole and increase mid-range/top-end power. With a turbo that size expect peak torque in the low~mid 4k rpm range and dependent on cam peak power in the low~mid 5k range.

With this build I was eying a G-Grind cam because I know my Autotech 270 will have too much overlap, probably matched with some G60 injectors. As far as traction goes, between the upgraded sway bars, stiffer struts, upper and lower stress bars and 7.5" rims, I have some traction to spare IMO, which is why I like the idea of the torque from the little guy. On a side note, it's so stiff and sticky I cannot drive it in the snow and she has crazy oversteer and likes to spin out with the stockers on it.


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

*Re: Educate Me! Why so much hate on a 2.0L ABA KO3 junkyard build? (El Cletus)*


_Quote, originally posted by *El Cletus* »_
With this build I was eying a G-Grind cam because I know my Autotech 270 will have too much overlap, probably matched with some G60 injectors. As far as traction goes, between the upgraded sway bars, stiffer struts, upper and lower stress bars and 7.5" rims, I have some traction to spare IMO, which is why I like the idea of the torque from the little guy. On a side note, it's so stiff and sticky I cannot drive it in the snow and she has crazy oversteer and likes to spin out with the stockers on it.
you could never be so wrong about the 270 cam.







read the cam spec charts. And trust me when i say you dont want a k03. It doesnt hold boost. A t3 super60 or reg 60trim t3 would be fine for your setup with plenty of torque to get outta the hole and hold its own well in the straights. Do you have a LSD yet?


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## El Cletus (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Educate Me! Why so much hate on a 2.0L ABA KO3 junkyard build? ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_you could never be so wrong about the 270 cam.







read the cam spec charts. And trust me when i say you dont want a k03. It doesnt hold boost. A t3 super60 or reg 60trim t3 would be fine for your setup with plenty of torque to get outta the hole and hold its own well in the straights. Do you have a LSD yet?

OK you got me, it has been a while since I read the spec sheet







I'll have to dig out my old school red 90's Autotech catalog tonight. 
As for the LSD, I never put one in, but I have left a "Posi" burnout before with it


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: Educate Me! Why so much hate on a 2.0L ABA KO3 junkyard build? ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_do realize that tiny turbos with super quick spool, cause wonderful traction issues in low gears. In your case and in most people's cases who who claim they "only want XXXhp" i suggest a t3 Super 60 with a .48 a/r. Full spool (20psi) in the low 3k rpm range. Or get a .63 a/r and add a couple hundred rpm lag to help traction outta the hole and increase mid-range/top-end power. With a turbo that size expect peak torque in the low~mid 4k rpm range and dependent on cam peak power in the low~mid 5k range.

Super 60 is only made by Turbonetics even though it's advertised by other companies. Turbonetics isn't that good of a turbo company. please do not recommend that turbo to anyone.
If anything just a regular 60 trim.


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

*Re: Educate Me! Why so much hate on a 2.0L ABA KO3 junkyard build? (killa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *killa* »_
Super 60 is only made by Turbonetics even though it's advertised by other companies. Turbonetics isn't that good of a turbo company. please do not recommend that turbo to anyone.
If anything just a regular 60 trim.
hmm good point.


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## El Cletus (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: Educate Me! Why so much hate on a 2.0L ABA KO3 junkyard build? ([email protected])*

So lets say I want to start with the KO3, knowing that I can upgrade at a later date... given the OBDII motor (have a spare OBD 1 parts available) and Autotech 270 cam I want to think about fuel now. I'm sure software choice will go hand in hand with this, but do I want something like a G60 injector or some 440cc injectors, or could a 4 bar of 5 bar FPR do the trick with the stock injectors? 
Ideally I'd like to see something work great with the KO3 but allow an upgrade someday, but if it would be night and day on injector choice for a KO3 vs. a T3 then so be it... I'm committing to this KO3 build if for nothing more than to learn.


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Dude you arent getting it.
You cant cheat or go cheap on a turbo setup you wanna drive everyday
And a 200whp Mk3 with 020 trans will have all kinds of traction issues.

At the very least you need C2 software


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## CDJetta (May 11, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Daskoupe)*

That 020 is gunna blow up is what's going to happen.


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## Daskoupe (Oct 9, 2006)

*FV-QR*

mines hasnt failed yet

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view









but the diff has a little play in it


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (Daskoupe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Daskoupe* »_mines hasnt failed yet

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view









but the diff has a little play in it








shut up you!


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## El Cletus (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Daskoupe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Daskoupe* »_Dude you arent getting it.
You cant cheat or go cheap on a turbo setup you wanna drive everyday
And a 200whp Mk3 with 020 trans will have all kinds of traction issues.

At the very least you need C2 software

It's only a daily in the summer, but this goes back to the route of the question... it's one big contradiction... AHHHHHHH








The ABA driveline without major mods can't handle more than 200, yet a K03 is too small cause it won't make over 200HP


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## rweird (Apr 10, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (El Cletus)*

the 02o can hold more than 200 hp. many have done it. its just a matter of how long. im at 18psi right now 250whp+


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## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

dont think HP... THINK TORQUE.


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## rweird (Apr 10, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*

truth. but it still comes down to how you drive. but in the end it will break at some point.


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## El Cletus (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: (rweird)*

First off, love or hate the idea, let me say I am really enjoying the discussion here. It's nice to not be told my 70mm drop in the front is not low enough...
So let me ask this...








Technician A says a K03ed ABA, much like the Neuspeed charger, is a safe BIG power upgrade to the stock 8V. Technician B says the ABA can handle more power than that lil' snail can throw, but be prepared for further upgrades all around.
A. Technician A
B. Technician B
C. Both A and B
D. Neither A nor B
However, the whole idea has hit it's first road bump as apparently there are two KO3 triangle flange designs and the AHU TDI manifold UPS brought me today does not match up... http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## rweird (Apr 10, 2004)

*Re: (El Cletus)*

i say dont waste money/time making a ko3 fit. if but more likely when you want more power you will have to buy/make a different manifold,dp, and possibly charge pipes. not worth it.


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

*Re: (rweird)*

We got just over 200whp on a 1.8T with a ko3s ~ 19psi on standalone... IMO it is just not worth making that setup work on an ABA.
It will give you good torque, I believe we made over 250, but it just runs out of breathe, your dyno plot most likely will look like a mountain (which I've seen in the past).
If you want small turbo, get a standard t3, or a t3super60. very good turbos for ABA motor's not looking for power north of 250whp.
T3/T4 is a great turbo for >250whp.


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## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: (GTijoejoe)*

So in the end everyone is saying you should spend money, spend more money oh and while you are at it, spend some more money. Just be on the safe side, spend lots of money.


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

*Re: (wantacad)*

no. With a stock ko3 you are pigeon holed. There is not upgrade path without buying EVERYTHING again.
Start with a standard turbo and spend a hair more, but have a great upgrade path that allows OP to just drop in a bigger turbo later on.
Seems the only thing cost wise that ko3 has over any other turbo in the OP's situation is that the ko3 didn't cost him anything. He still has to buy everything else. So, $$$ difference is only 1 turbo. He can sell it and buy another and be just a little more out of pocket.
If fact is HARDER for him to piece together a system around a k03 that a standard turbo.
time = $$, right? 


_Modified by elRey at 12:03 PM 2-27-2010_


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## El Cletus (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: (elRey)*


_Quote, originally posted by *elRey* »_
Seems the only thing cost wise that ko3 has over any other turbo in the OP's situation is that the ko3 didn't cost him anything. He still has to buy everything else. So, $$$ difference is only 1 turbo. He can sell it and buy another and be just a little more out of pocket.


You have a very valid point... I could probably part with the manifold and turbo and have a good place to start... decisions decisions


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## instg8r (Sep 22, 2003)

*Re: (El Cletus)*

Ko3 is a waste of time, and money.


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## El Cletus (Apr 18, 2002)

*Re: (instg8r)*

So I've been a search whore the past few days waiting for a few parts to arrive and i found this...
it's an ABA with a newer MKIV TDI swap on it... I gotta say, this is a pretty nice in my mind... 220ftlbs of torque and 167 HP... I bet this could be tuned to get closer to 180... and as for running out of breath on the top end, so it dies after 5k, I'll trade 700 rpms of HP for all that area under the curve sooner
















thanks *Funken_Groovin*










_Modified by El Cletus at 12:36 AM 3-6-2010_


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## El Cletus (Apr 18, 2002)

oh ya, he was running a TDI turbo/mani from an 04 TDI (VNT 15) running external 38mm wastegate, C2 software, 30lb injectors, on 11lbs of boost, stock compression.


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