# What is VW thinking?



## rmart (Sep 24, 2008)

I have become increasingly frustrated with VW over the last few years but lately I feel inclined to give up on them. I own an 08 Jetta which I am very happy with. I have been waiting for the new Golf VII TDI as a replacement and now learn that it will have a torsion beam rear suspension. After waiting over a year since release of the VII elsewhere we now get a decontented version for the U.S. once again. And the new Golf is now on sale in the U.S. but VW has not even updated their website with full pricing and content details of the car yet! Are they kidding me? How can they possibly do this?

Looking back at the new Jetta decontenting issues, the current delay in offering the latest Golf to the U.S., the off again on again possibility of the GTD, stripping the new Golf TDI of IRS and lack of new Golf info on their website it makes me wonder if VW has any regard or respect for the U.S. market. It is very disappointing.


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

I feel your pain - but the problem appears to be related to the Urea NO_x conversion technology; it is the same problem in the new Audi A3. I don't have a clue why VW/ Audi were unable to develop a Urea tank that would fit, in the long development time of the new MQB platform, given there is a lot of extra space under the rear hatch/ trunk cover and in the spare wheel tray and surroundings. 

On the flip side, AWD models are rumored, and they will force a new Urea tank design, so I think.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

feels_road said:


> I feel your pain - but the problem appears to be related to the Urea NO_x conversion technology; it is the same problem in the new Audi A3. I don't have a clue why VW/ Audi were unable to develop a Urea tank that would fit, in the long development time of the new MQB platform, given there is a lot of extra space under the rear hatch/ trunk cover and in the spare wheel tray and surroundings.
> 
> On the flip side, AWD models are rumored, and they will force a new Urea tank design, so I think.


Can't imagine modifying the Mk7 Golf MQB for the "loose canon" USA regulations was a priority. Especially with the miniscule Golf sales in the USA. Why should the EU customers give up something for the crazy USA regs?


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## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

I haven't really noticed a huge handling/ride difference in the VW IRS vs. torsion beam rear suspension set ups. It wouldn't stop me, but if you are happy with your current MkV than why get rid of it? Or just wait for the GTD.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

2ohgti said:


> I haven't really noticed a huge handling/ride difference in the VW IRS vs. torsion beam rear suspension set ups.....


Absolutely. Most of the whiners here could never tell the difference without looking.


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## deagle (Feb 22, 2011)

u know, u could live in the US and get an overseas car .... just import it

if its not worth to do it, its not worth it

write to VWOA and your congressman


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## richyrich999 (Oct 20, 2008)

VW is thinking sales and growth! Fact is you're probably not the VW target market or a typical North American car buyer - a lot of people who've enjoyed VWs over the years struggle with this but the facts tell all: big sellers in North America - your "decontented", locally made, bargain-priced Jetta and Passat. Low volume sellers in NA - models built in Europe with somewhat-Euro specs - Touareg, CC, Eos etc. Typical VW buyers simply don't want or value the things you do. VW want to challenge the big boys this side of the pond so they're going to follow the money and that means keeping costs low and volumes high. The vast majority of the people going into a VW showroom couldn't care less what kind of suspension their car has (me included) and certainly don't appreciate paying more for something that has no value to them. You should just face up to it and choose a niche brand where you get (and pay for) the niche features you want.


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

First of all, decontented or not the Jetta has been the top seller for VW since the inception of the Jetta. One can easily argue that the size of the Passat is just as viable reason for it's recent sales increase as is the decontenting. Previous Passats were too small to compete with mid sized cars but costed more than well contented mid sized competion. Now the Jetta and Passat still lag the market leaders in their segments (Jetta - Civic, Corolla, Focus, Cruze, Elantra) (Passat - Camry, Accord, Altima, Fusion, Sonata, Malibu). Neither the Jetta nor the Passat show no signs of presenting a serious threat to the respective market leaders in the US. One can become mislead when looking at VW sales increases without context. Mk4 Jetta sales (high content vs competitive offerings) were fairly strong for a couple of years before disappointing perceived quality started undermining sales. VW has grown sales with both higher and lower content products and have plateaued in sales before experiencing a fall back. 

VW has never had cars that exploited the fat middle of the US market. The current Jetta and Passat were attempts to do so. The current Jetta at its peak is only modestly more successful than the Mk4 Jetta at its peak. There's no real sales boom when looking at current sales within the lens of VWs of the past. VW broke past the 400,000 sales barrier before just to fall back below it just as they are expected to this year. Insufficient quality, reliability, and product depth will get them this time just as it has in the past.

So all this is to say this, "VW is a niche brand in the US in case you haven't noticed it!" You're kidding yourself if you think to the contrary. VW is similar to Mini, Subaru, and Mazda. These brands all have the same problem; not enough product and volume to be mainstream. Niche. The only customers VW can reliably depend upon tend to be people looking niche product. The transitory VW customer can always find a better value in a Kia or Ford, greater reliability in a Honda or Toyota, more flexibility in a Subaru, and more luxury in a BMW or Mini. What does leave VW with; niche buyers (VW enthusiasts who don't represent traditional US buyers) and transitory buyers (no loyalty to the brand) who move with the best value, features, reliability, total cost of ownership or pricing. VW can't hold these transitory buyers with the products they currently sell. Ignoring niche customers can only force VW into a pricing strategy only like the Detroit guys did with cars in the past. Price buyers are low profit buyers.


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## mmmoose (Jan 8, 2014)

As it has already been mentioned, the lack of IRS is due to the addition of the urea tank (not yet a requirement in Europe). VW didn't go out of their way to de-content the car itself just to piss Americans off. It was a change that was necessary with the current design of the Mk7 Golf. Their options were to either downgrade the rear suspension, or simply not offer the Golf TDI in the US market at all. Eventually when Europe catches up with similar diesel emission standards, VW will be forced to redesign certain areas to offer both the urea tank and the IRS.

The upside to all this? The Golf TDI will be re-introduced at a cheaper price point than ever before. It'll even look and feel more upscale than the Jetta TDI Value Edition. It'll also help boost TDI sales and popularize it, since the higher price has always been one of its biggest obstacles in grabbing more of the American market. Yes, I agree it sucks for people who were looking for both an economic AND sporty handling ride, BUT I still wouldn't rule it out just yet.

When they come out test drive it and see for yourself. I've thrown a base 2012 Beetle around several twisty roads packed with potholes, and not once did I even think about the fact that it had a torsion beam rear suspension. The car stayed firmly planted to the road without skipping a beat. My '08 Rabbit (previous car) would bounce and wobble all over the place on the same exact road. So yeah that experience was definitely an eye opener for me.


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

mmmoose said:


> The *upside* to all this? The Golf TDI will be re-introduced at a cheaper price point than ever before.


The *downside*?

I will not sell my MkVI TDI with its brilliant factory sport suspension for a long time. Meaning, I will postpone buying another all-new VW for a long time.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

feels_road said:


> The *downside*? I will not sell my MkVI TDI with its brilliant factory sport suspension for a long time. Meaning, I will postpone buying another all-new VW for a long time.


Seems rather silly to give up the much better Mk7 for too long unless yo just don't have the $$$. Very few if any could tell the difference in IRS and beam unless they peak underneath.


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## mmmoose (Jan 8, 2014)

feels_road said:


> The *downside*?
> 
> I will not sell my MkVI TDI with its brilliant factory sport suspension for a long time. Meaning, I will postpone buying another all-new VW for a long time.


No, I meant what I said. The *upside*. The cheaper price point will help give the diesel market a much needed boost here in America. It'll make it a more appealing option over most hybrids. The Golf/Jetta TDI has always been this niche market car with a fairly high introductory price, pulling it just out of reach for many potential buyers here in America. At the moment it's not exactly the most sustainable (profitable) option for VW to keep putting it on the premium pedestal.

Aside from the torsion beam setup the Mk7 Golf TDI still has the same exterior styling, same upscale interior, new premium alloy wheels, etc. None of the improvements we've seen with the Mk7 have been touched otherwise. You're making it sound like they're completely downgrading the new Golf TDI into some hard plasticky base trim car like the 2.slow Jetta S. That's definitely not the case here.

I imagine that eventually they will offer IRS for it. But seeing as how this is a European developed car we probably won't see that change happen until Europe mandates the usage of the urea tank as well. It's not really VW's fault. It's our own goverment's emissions regulations, for being so damn inconsistent with the rest of the world and causing big headaches for foreign automotive manufacturers. This is partly the reason why we can't have half the cool stuff they get over there!


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## TOMPASS (Apr 6, 2010)

OK. The MQB Passat TDI accomodates a urea tank and keeps IRS. The MQB Golf TDI doesn't. (Due to the longer wheelbase/stretched platform dimensions?) The urea tank is required to meet US EPA standards due to the US's "dirtier" diesel fuel. Should the US adopt the "cleaner" EU diesel the urea tank won't be necessary, at which time the suspension issue for the Golf TDI goes away. Is this a platform development screwup or what VW is betting on? The use of the beam rear suspension helps keep the cost of the TDI down, making it more affordable. OK, but the same can be said for the gas Golf as well, yet they all get the IRS. And since the suspensions are interchangeable, interior and cargo accommodations aren't affected. After almost thirty years of ownership, I'm quite familiar with VW's history of inexplicable marketing decisions, and this one ranks high on that list.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

TOMPASS said:


> OK. The MQB Passat TDI accomodates a urea tank and keeps IRS. The MQB Golf TDI doesn't. (Due to the longer wheelbase/stretched platform dimensions?) The urea tank is required to meet US EPA standards due to the US's "dirtier" diesel fuel. Should the US adopt the "cleaner" EU diesel the urea tank won't be necessary, at which time the suspension issue for the Golf TDI goes away. Is this a platform development screwup or what VW is betting on? The use of the beam rear suspension helps keep the cost of the TDI down, making it more affordable. OK, but the same can be said for the gas Golf as well, yet they all get the IRS. And since the suspensions are interchangeable, interior and cargo accommodations aren't affected. After almost thirty years of ownership, I'm quite familiar with VW's history of inexplicable marketing decisions, and this one ranks high on that list.


What MQB Passat? Have you seen one? When will it reach the market?


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

TOMPASS said:


> The urea tank is required to meet US EPA standards due to the US's "dirtier" diesel fuel. Should the US adopt the "cleaner" EU diesel the urea tank won't be necessary...


This is not exactly correct. VW used to state that they couldn't bring more diesels to the US because we had too high sulfur content in the fuel. The U.S. EPA changed the allowable diesel Sulfur content to the world's lowest (yes, even lower than the EU) for 2007 and beyond along will decreasing the allowable particulates to a number below the prevailing EU4/EU5 standards at the time. This required a particulate filter be fitted to the TDIs for the US market. The upcoming EU6 standard has particulate standards closer to current EPA standards so by 2016, EU cars will need particulate filters too. Thus, VW will most likely have urea tanks and IRS for the MQB cars at that time. They could've provided a engineering solution for this when they started developing MQB years ago. EPA and EU emissions road maps were well known and there were no surprises in either. VW seems to have taken a different tact and are withholding Urea + IRS until EU6. I guess it's a business decision. 

The US diesel being dirtier is old info. Times and fuel standards have changed.


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## canvwseller (Jun 19, 2014)

*Not so different?*



VR6Now said:


> The US diesel being dirtier is old info. Times and fuel standards have changed.


According to one of VW's product trainers -* Due to the addition of an Adblue reservoir, the rear suspension on all Golf 7 TDI models have been modified to incorporate a new modular lightweight torsion beam rear axle. This suspension is specifically designed in combination with the new MQB (Modular Transverse Matrix) platform. This suspension is also incorporated as standard equipment on the European Golf 7.*

I have not been able to confirm online...


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

canvwseller said:


> According to one of VW's product trainers -* Due to the addition of an Adblue reservoir, the rear suspension on all Golf 7 TDI models have been modified to incorporate a new modular lightweight torsion beam rear axle. This suspension is specifically designed in combination with the new MQB (Modular Transverse Matrix) platform. This suspension is also incorporated as standard equipment on the European Golf 7.*
> 
> I have not been able to confirm online...


EU6 emissions standards are around the corner so Europeans can now enjoy the beam too. None the less, this was known many years ago so VW could've came out with an IRS at launch if they tried. Anyone want to bet that this problem magically goes away with the EU version of the GTD after EU6 implementation.


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## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

VR6Now said:


> VW has never had cars that exploited the fat middle of the US market. The current Jetta and Passat were attempts to do so. The current Jetta at its peak is only modestly more successful than the Mk4 Jetta at its peak. There's no real sales boom when looking at current sales within the lens of VWs of the past. VW broke past the 400,000 sales barrier before just to fall back below it just as they are expected to this year. Insufficient quality, reliability, and product depth will get them this time just as it has in the past.


I just want to give a thumbs up to this sentiment.

I sold VWs for about 5 years back in the MK4 days. It was a real peak for VW at the time, because compared to the sales numbers of the nineties, the numbers we were seeing in the early 2000's were stellar. 

We hit kind of a glass ceiling, though. The Jetta and Passat in those days were hot items, and the Beetle was rolling out the door nicely. This was, say, 2000-2005 ish. The problem was, that although our cars drove better than the other guys cars, and had all kinds of fancy schmancy details like hydraulic trunk hinges and 5 way heated seats and everything like that...our prices were just high enough for the average Joe and Jane that we could only sell so many cars. Add to this the limited product range. Honda and Toyota had CUVs that were selling like wildfire, right at the right time. CR-V and RAV4. We had nothing. HUGE lapse by VW. Also, we had no competitive minivan, something VW wrote the book on. The Odyssey and Sienna were hot, we had nothing. Other than niche cars like the Beetle and GTI, we basically had two cars to sell in any volume. Jetta and Passat. Two products are not enough to carry you to huge sales numbers, especially when they are premium priced, relatively.

Oh, I forgot two things. The last bugaboos from the salesperson perspective: Size. Jetta 4 shoppers wanted to put a car seat in the back. The Jetta of the day quite frankly sucked balls for those with car seats. The Passat was too pricey to move most people into. So rear seat room was a killer to a lot of Jetta shoppers. #2 --reliability. I lived through the Beetle window regulator debacle, the 1.8T coil disaster. The horrible early Touaregs with finicky TMPS issues and distorted windshields. The Beetle convertibles with power tops that broke and we could't get parts. 2000-2005 were not great times from a quality viewpoint. You don't know how many clients I had who had not owned a VW for years, came back, and got a POS that left them stranded 3 separate times in the winter with kids in the car. Those people were so ticked after a while that I don't think they'll ever come back after being burned.

We on the sales side, as much as we liked being able to show clients toys and thoughtful features on our cars, pined for a mainstream, budget priced, roomy back seat, somewhat decontented car to compete with the Accord / Camry. Also something cheaper, on the idea of the old Fox, to hit Elantra and Accent and Corolla shoppers. I remember several of us expressing this sentiment to VW brass at a Sales Guild meeting in 2003 or 2004. Keep in mind, this was right during the push upmarket with the Touareg and Phaeton, so we were laughed out of the place and dismissed. Nobody wanted to hear it. 

When the decontented Jetta and Passat came out a few years ago, although I was no longer selling cars, I was like YES as were several people I know who are still in the VW biz. It was exactly what a lot of people said we needed to do ten years ago but everyone at VW pooh-pooed.

Sure, they might have carried it a bit far, but they had the right idea, in general, in my book.


So, to today. You're VW. Your overriding goal is to sell 800k cars in the USA. In my view, you need several things to do this. You need good, reliable, competitively priced products in most of the major market segments that Honda, Toyota, and Hyundai play in. Jetta, Passat, a compact SUV like a RAV4. A minivan to compete with the Odyssey. Maybe a larger crossovery SUV like the Pilot / Highlander. Period. The Tiguan totally does not work. A rebadged Caravan does not work. High dollar offering like Touareg does not work. You want to be a volume player, you look at what the other volume players are doing and follow their playbook. You want to be a relative niche player and sell 300k cars a year, fine, use the mindset from 10 years ago.

Until VW has a competitive car in the Jetta segment, Passat segment, CRV segment, and minivan segment OR Santa Fe / Pilot segment, they will never hit anything close to their # goal. And those offerings better be pretty bulletproof. None of the attitude of the early 2000's where the factory figured you could suck up some repair grief since the car was so fun to drive and had cute windows that would open with the key from outside.

In summary, just like you said. Product range too narrow, reliability too low. I might add prices too high if you want to sell in bulk.

my 2c, fwiw


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## ZPayne (Jan 8, 2014)

VR6Now said:


> EU6 emissions standards are around the corner so Europeans can now enjoy the beam too. None the less, this was known many years ago so VW could've came out with an IRS at launch if they tried. Anyone want to bet that this problem magically goes away with the EU version of the GTD after EU6 implementation.


Yeah they'll fiddle with MQB a bit in order to get IRS for the 2.0 tdi and GTD for europe with euro6 emissions coming up, that's when they'll probably update our TDI's with IRS and give us the GTD. I'd say MY 2016.5 or 2017


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## SUVAGEN (Aug 13, 2011)

The new website is a juvenile disaster. You can't figure out what colors and options go together. There is no vehicle comparison. There is no searching of dealerships other than the ones they serve up. The Golf VII was absent until today when they added a look-see of the car - and all the pictures are of a "European Model". But the car is at a dealer? People have bought them and been driving them for weeks! I don't know but it smacks of a very disorganized immature web management team. I have contacted customer service and they told me VW wanted the vehicle selection process to be like "online dating". Seriously? Someone needs to be fired. God love 'em, but they are way off base.


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## VR6Now (Dec 31, 2000)

SUVAGEN said:


> The new website is a juvenile disaster. You can't figure out what colors and options go together. There is no vehicle comparison. There is no searching of dealerships other than the ones they serve up. The Golf VII was absent until today when they added a look-see of the car - and all the pictures are of a "European Model". But the car is at a dealer? People have bought them and been driving them for weeks! I don't know but it smacks of a very disorganized immature web management team. I have contacted customer service and they told me VW wanted the vehicle selection process to be like "online dating". Seriously? Someone needs to be fired. God love 'em, but they are way off base.


It was created by people who have training/education credentials and not enough common sense and perception of customer needs. 'We don't want to confuse the customer with too much information' mindset.

It reminds of the GM of the 70's, 80's, 90's, and 00's. GM hired people with great grades in engineering, marketing, and business schools. They place great value in that fact. Yet, a large percentage of the end product was mediocre and sales were on a reliable, steady decline. Too much corporate focus in their chosen 'process' and not enough in the results and customer wants.

There is little point in visiting a web site for cars if I can't build my own or see available options. VW's approach is like on-line dating...you can choose between the clowns available in your area because you can't specify and get what you want.


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## Wagon05 (Feb 7, 2005)

syncro87 said:


> I just want to give a thumbs up to this sentiment.
> 
> I sold VWs for about 5 years back in the MK4 days. It was a real peak for VW at the time, because compared to the sales numbers of the nineties, the numbers we were seeing in the early 2000's were stellar.
> 
> ...


This is absolutely Spot ON - I have been buying VWs since 1985 (thats 30 years ) and I am disgusted. Loved my 08 wagon as it gave me everything I wanted. Jetta sport wagon = too small. Tiguan (my wife has one ) too small , not flexible. Toureg - don't need a 50 k SUV. So what is left for me ? One thing VW does better than anyone else is interior trim quality, ergonomics and esthetics - but that can't stand on it's own. VW needed something like a Subaru Outback - they basically had it by blowing up a Passat wagon - but had zero (or clouded) vision.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

Wagon05 said:


> This is absolutely Spot ON - I have been buying VWs since 1985 (thats 30 years ) and I am disgusted. Loved my 08 wagon as it gave me everything I wanted. Jetta sport wagon = too small. Tiguan (my wife has one ) too small , not flexible. Toureg - don't need a 50 k SUV. So what is left for me ? One thing VW does better than anyone else is interior trim quality, ergonomics and esthetics - but that can't stand on it's own. VW needed something like a Subaru Outback - they basically had it by blowing up a Passat wagon - but had zero (or clouded) vision.


It appears you have not noticed which current VW models sell the best in the USA market.


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## JDub8 (May 24, 2008)

It's hard to have a car like the jetta with a roomy back seat, people care about trunk space (we're always burying hookers and roomates in 'murica). 

I had an idea awhile back, why does the interior have to be symmetrical? Why not have the seat behind the drivers seat scrunched up close and the seat(s) behind the passenger seat set further back sacrificing some trunk space. That way you'd have good legroom for 3-4 people and the shortest person could sit behind the driver.

Only other way is to build a longer, heavier and even less fuel efficient car. Frankly VW needs to get on the MPG bandwagon, I was always annoyed that my MK3 Jetta was only a little bigger and heavier than a civic yet got 31mpg to the civic/corolla's 38~.


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## kleineGTI (Jan 24, 2001)

JDub8 said:


> Only other way is to build a longer, heavier and even less fuel efficient car. Frankly VW needs to get on the MPG bandwagon, I was always annoyed that my MK3 Jetta was only a little bigger and heavier than a civic yet got 31mpg to the civic/corolla's 38~.


Your MK3 Jetta offered substantially superior performance in exchange for its lesser MPG. That's a trade-off I'll make every time.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

JDub8 said:


> ....I had an idea awhile back, why does the interior have to be symmetrical? Why not have the seat behind the drivers seat scrunched up close and the seat(s) behind the passenger seat set further back sacrificing some trunk space. That way you'd have good legroom for 3-4 people and the shortest person could sit behind the driver......


Has it not occurred to you that the rear seat is positioned as far back as the rear wheels will allow? You need to use common sense.


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## Mark O. (Aug 25, 2014)

rmart said:


> And the new Golf is now on sale in the U.S. but VW has not even updated their website with full pricing and content details of the car yet!


The website is still lacking tech specs and options of the new Golf. There is at least a picture of the front half of each Golf. :laugh: Wonder if CGI did their website? ...ah, the 1st world problems we have!


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## SUVAGEN (Aug 13, 2011)

Just try and do something logical like compare specs on different engines and trims.. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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