# S3 vs. Tuned A3 S-Line



## Jay07GLI (May 27, 2007)

Been lurking on here a while. Really leaning towards picking up an A3 S-line in Q1. Been a VW guy for a long time. This would be my first Audi. Got a couple questions that maybe experienced Audi owners could answer.

1.) Differences between an S3 and a tuned A3 S-line
2.) Do you think auto dimming exterior mirrors will be an option like most other luxury brands? 
Sounds minor but this is a feature I've been wanting for a long time.


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## mike3141 (Feb 16, 1999)

They've been available on A3s for years. AoA however never made them available over here. They're also very expensive.

http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-A3-Quattro-2.0T/Exterior/Mirrors/ES1928106/


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Assuming you mean 2.0TQ, I figure there won't be much difference other than the cosmetics once you reflash the software on the A3, except for...

the warranty.

All indications I've seen point to the "TD1" flag being no joke. I'm very much not interested in setting the TD1 on my car. Of course, that's just secondary to my desire to have the S3 interior and other assorted trim, so I'd still be opting for the S3, anyway.


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## Rudy_H (Jul 6, 2012)

This is what I am kind of on the fence about as well with getting a S3 vs A3 2.0T Quattro S-Line

Very specific list of things I actually want, and if it holds true to typical VW / Audi style, there will be small differences between the S3 and A3 power train.

The unfortunate thing is there is no 2.0T Quattro A3 right now, only the 1.8T by way of reviews, and S3 reviews...

At the end of the day, I have had quite enough with the aftermarket world, I think I might just get a S3 + ECU tune + springs and call it quits (maybe down pipe, and then...)


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Rudy_H said:


> At the end of the day, I have had quite enough with the aftermarket world, *I think I might just get a S3 + ECU tune + springs and call it quits (maybe down pipe, and then...)*


What you did there. I see it. :sly:


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## KnockKnock (Jun 30, 2005)

$745 

I suspect the S3 will have beefed up internals making it worthy of a full Audi warranty à la TT-S of yore. One only has to decide if that has value to them.


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## Chimera (Jul 6, 2002)

Would Stasis be an option for those wanting a tuned ecu but avoid having the car flagged?


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## Rudy_H (Jul 6, 2012)

Dan Halen said:


> What you did there. I see it. :sly:


I have no drug addictions, yet I need to find balance in life with an addiction of other sorts eace:


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Chimera said:


> Would Stasis be an option for those wanting a tuned ecu but avoid having the car flagged?


I believe they're one of the ones that claims to provide a warranty roughly equivalent to the factory warranty, no? I can't immediately find anything on their website, but I think they are.


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## jhatfie (Apr 19, 2011)

I imagine that a tuned Quattro A3 S-Line will be pretty close performance wise to a stock S3. From what I understand the S-Line A4 even uses the same suspension components and sway bars as the S4, so this tactic likely will carry over to the A3/S3. I am not sure how well the new generation 2.0T will tune, but the previous gen at stage 2 is around 273HP/300TQ (crank) which is pretty close. However the S3 could be vastly under rated like the S4 is, meaning it's reported 300HP/280TQ could actually be higher in reality.

The TD1 flag though is no joke and Audi will not hesitate to void your warranty if they detect a tune. With my CPO 2012 A4 S-Line I likely will get the APR tune after my next service as I have a couple minor warranty items to get looked at. But after, due to TD1 flagging, I will never go to the dealer again for any service and will have a local Audi specialized independent shop do my scheduled services. If something comes up that requires warranty work, I will have my APR dealer flash me completely back to stock prior to seeing the dealer ($40 to flash back to stock + $90 to flash back to stage 1 once warranty work is complete).

Next time around though I think I will just spend a little more and get the S3/S4. It costs more up front, but they seem to hold their value a bit better and do not require mods to get them to a more acceptable level of performance and I can avoid the TD1 stress.


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## ChrisFu (Jun 9, 2012)

Chimera said:


> Would Stasis be an option for those wanting a tuned ecu but avoid having the car flagged?





Dan Halen said:


> I believe they're one of the ones that claims to provide a warranty roughly equivalent to the factory warranty, no? I can't immediately find anything on their website, but I think they are.


Stasis "backing" their product with an equivalent warranty is a complete and utter joke.

If you browse the audizine forums for even a few minutes, youll come across horror story after horror story of tuning houses washing their hands when it comes to warranty issues. From the looks of it, its little more than a bunch of lip service.

And the car will get the flag regardless if it is ever taken to a dealership. There are no ECU mods that will escape, plus its a one way street - the flag cannot be manually added or removed.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

ChrisFu said:


> Stasis "backing" their product with an equivalent warranty is a complete and utter joke.
> 
> If you browse the audizine forums for even a few minutes, youll come across horror story after horror story of tuning houses washing their hands when it comes to warranty issues. From the looks of it, its little more than a bunch of lip service.


The shock! I'm so surprised!


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## Jay07GLI (May 27, 2007)

Thanks for all the responses. I would rather have the S3 but I don't wanna wait the extra 6-9 months for it. Plus, I've had stage 1 APR software on my Golf R since it had 1K miles and I'm over 20K now with no issues so I feel it's pretty reliable.

If I was flashed and Audi voided my warranty, they'd lose a customer for life. Is the money they'd save on the repair, worth losing a loyal customer that may buy a half dozen or more cars over the course of their life?


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Unless George has heard something to the contrary in the last several weeks, he's been led to believe the S3 won't be a delayed intro like initially anticipated. March is the estimate we've been seeing for the A3 and, at least at this point, the S3- but if not March, not far behind.


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## Jay07GLI (May 27, 2007)

That's great news. Thanks Dan. I think you just made my day.

Does anyone know if the autodimming sideviews would be a plug & play since the light senser is already there for the rearview?


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Jay07GLI said:


> That's great news. Thanks Dan. I think you just made my day.
> 
> Does anyone know if the autodimming sideviews would be a plug & play since the light senser is already there for the rearview?


For citation's sake: http://forums.fourtitude.com/showth...mp-Pricing&p=82185481&viewfull=1#post82185481

I'm hoping the S3 doesn't slip at all, but I'm trying to remain realistic about it.

My guess would be that we'll be missing wiring in our cars for them if they aren't offered on any of our A3s, but a) that hasn't stopped me before and b) guessing whether or not the wiring will be there is nothing short of a crapshoot at this point.


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## ChrisFu (Jun 9, 2012)

Jay07GLI said:


> If I was flashed and Audi voided my warranty, they'd lose a customer for life. Is the money they'd save on the repair, worth losing a loyal customer that may buy a half dozen or more cars over the course of their life?


The TD1 flag exists for Audi *and *VW vehicles. Your Golf R almost certainly has it right now. This began in march 2012. Its flagged whether or not youve flashed back to "stock".

Just a matter of whether or not VW decides to use it against you 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5635710-TD1-warranty-flag


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## Chimera (Jul 6, 2002)

Ah, ok, I thought Audi authorized ecu tunes thru Stasis (hence the high cost and tame performance) and it wasn't a separate warranty. I've never looked far into them.


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## caliatenza (Dec 10, 2006)

Chimera said:


> Ah, ok, I thought Audi authorized ecu tunes thru Stasis (hence the high cost and tame performance) and it wasn't a separate warranty. I've never looked far into them.


i found this on the Stasis website:

"Vehicles modified with STaSIS Signature Series products are clearly flagged in the Audi warranty system to enable faster diagnostics and better customer service. STaSIS customers can have their vehicles serviced and repaired under warranty at any Audi dealership across North America. This is unique to STaSIS."

“Through proper communication, we expect that under no circumstance will a customer be delayed or denied repair
in situations involving STaSIS and Audi products when repair is appropriate.” 
– Mark del Rosso, Chief Operating Officer and Peter Donnellan, Director After Sales, Audi of America, October 5, 2011


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## mike3141 (Feb 16, 1999)

I believe the trick is that there's an arrangement between AoA and Statis such that Statis will compensate AoA for repairs against Statis-supplied equipment that would have normally been rejected for warranty coverage due to alteration.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

You still won't see me touching that with a thirty nine and a half foot pole. No how, no way.


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## mookieblaylock (Sep 25, 2005)

Dan Halen said:


> You still won't see me touching that with a thirty nine and a half foot pole. No how, no way.


if i got one of these i couldn't resist getting a tune so probably better the stasis than the others


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## JGreen76 (Aug 25, 2012)

I plan to get the S3, unless there is a RS. Either way, i plan to flash. I've owned 5 Audi's, and so far no issues.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

I'll have this car ten years. Four years without an upgrade won't kill me.


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## Rudy_H (Jul 6, 2012)

I kind of see why they did it...I remember reading enough about GIAC chips more so then the APR's that were very aggressively tuned. I know my turbo on the S4 lasted under a year... 

I don't like the pricing, and the new strangle hold created that's for sure by Stassis. 

I still think its not fair to completely void warranty due to an ECU tune. Especially if my alternator goes for example. I completely agree on a turbo going because it was my own fault. 

IMO, stick with the aftermarket companies suggested complimentary mods and you should be fine. For the S4 I didn't and blew the turbo, the Genesis Coupe I did to a 'T', and the vendors made sure you bought your intercooler for example before tossing on their ECU tune, 100,000 later...stock turbo and not a single problem. Otherwise it's at your own risk.


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## mookieblaylock (Sep 25, 2005)

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives...-vs-Audi-S3-vs-BMW-M135i-CAR-Giant-Test-2013/


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## LWNY (Jul 30, 2008)

The tuned A3 usually removes the boost limit, thus giving a more peaky torque curve as opposed to the flat torque curve that they usually have on their force induction cars. You might see a higher peak torque on certain RPM, but much of the other section have lower torque, which they cannot raise unless it has a larger turbo like on the S3.


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## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

Not for nothing but if the stock a3 2.0 t has around 220 hp, and chipping it boosts that figure to 260 or 270 you are still well ahead with an S3. you are literally going to have to add 80 hp with mods to match the power, and still might not match the ratios and other characteristics of the car's setup.

(yes, i know the globe and mail canada article sites the engine as 211 hp but if a gen 7 gti can have 220 the a3 will likely really have 220 even if "rated" at 211.)

Point is, you will have to do more than chip it to touch the S3, don't cheap out- get the real thing.


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## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

ChrisFu said:


> The TD1 flag exists for Audi *and *VW vehicles. Your Golf R almost certainly has it right now. This began in march 2012. Its flagged whether or not youve flashed back to "stock".
> 
> Just a matter of whether or not VW decides to use it against you


Incorrect for the Golf R, but correct for all other VWs.

Because the Golf R utilizes the EA113 from the MKV GTI (albeit heavily modified) it also uses an older ECM which cannot be flagged for TD1. 

You're correct about all other 2011+ VWs though including the new GTI which has an EA888.


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## JGreen76 (Aug 25, 2012)

.......not to mention that you will get better brakes. Brakes can easily be a 3k upgrade.


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## VeeDubbinJetta91 (Aug 19, 2002)

Rudy_H said:


> I kind of see why they did it...I remember reading enough about GIAC chips more so then the APR's that were very aggressively tuned. I know my turbo on the S4 lasted under a year...
> 
> I don't like the pricing, and the new strangle hold created that's for sure by Stassis.
> 
> ...


I am not 100% sure how it works but I do not believe your entire warranty can be void due a "tune" sure the powertrain portion(understandable extra power puts more stress on engine/trans/drivetrain/etc.), but say your ballast fails or your passanger seat breaks in half I am pretty sure you would still be covered under your normal B-2-B warranty


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## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

VeeDubbinJetta91 said:


> I am not 100% sure how it works but I do not believe your entire warranty can be void due a "tune" sure the powertrain portion(understandable extra power puts more stress on engine/trans/drivetrain/etc.), but say your ballast fails or your passanger seat breaks in half I am pretty sure you would still be covered under your normal B-2-B warranty


agreed


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

While correct, I'm past the point in my life where I'm willing to argue with a dealer over that. You're just the little guy, and the burden of proof will be on you. Best case, the dealer refuses to work on your car. If they are the only game in town, then what?


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## cyberpmg (Nov 27, 2001)

If I'm not mistaken (not a lawyer here), there are laws in place here in the US that state that the manufacturer needs to prove that an aftermarket modification/product is responsible for the damage of an OEM item before a warranty can be denied. The manufacturer can quickly flag the car on scanning to detect a tune, but they need to present evidence that it caused the failure. Most people won't follow up on it because of court costs.


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## Jay07GLI (May 27, 2007)

JGreen76 said:


> .......not to mention that you will get better brakes. Brakes can easily be a 3k upgrade.


I'm not sure this is a "pro" for me. Bigger brakes equals more brake dust. Keeping the wheels clean on my R is like a part time job for which I don't really have the time.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

cyberpmg said:


> If I'm not mistaken (not a lawyer here), there are laws in place here in the US that state that the manufacturer needs to prove that an aftermarket modification/product is responsible for the damage of an OEM item before a warranty can be denied. The manufacturer can quickly flag the car on scanning to detect a tune, but they need to present evidence that it caused the failure. *Most people won't follow up on it because of court costs.*


Precisely. Big guy vs. little guy, regardless of what's on the books.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Jay07GLI said:


> I'm not sure this is a "pro" for me. Bigger brakes equals more brake dust. Keeping the wheels clean on my R is like a part time job for which I don't really have the time.


Well, yeah... but a pad change could also go a long way, too.

... and if our S3 comes with the wheels shown on the Misano Red press example, I don't think it'll be nearly as big a deal. The Golf R wheels absolutely blow ass to clean. They'd have been off my car in a hot minute had I bought one. Screw that. :laugh:


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## Cyncris (Aug 12, 2012)

Jay07GLI said:


> I'm not sure this is a "pro" for me. Bigger brakes equals more brake dust. Keeping the wheels clean on my R is like a part time job for which I don't really have the time.


You should try using Armor all Wheel protectant. The wheels on my A4 would become covered in brake dust in just a few miles. With a solid coating of that stuff on, I have been on a 500 mile trip through the mountains, through rain storms, and done some city driving as well and they are cleaner than they would have been through 30 miles of non-protected driving.

That stuff is like $17 a can and you get maybe 4-5 uses of hitting all 4 wheels per can, but well worth it IMO.


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## Rudy_H (Jul 6, 2012)

VeeDubbinJetta91 said:


> I am not 100% sure how it works but I do not believe your entire warranty can be void due a "tune" sure the powertrain portion(understandable extra power puts more stress on engine/trans/drivetrain/etc.), but say your ballast fails or your passanger seat breaks in half I am pretty sure you would still be covered under your normal B-2-B warranty


I would still question that, but regardless yes I think ballast would have been a better example.

From modding cars for so long, and new cars at that, the headaches that go with it. All I want is springs / ECU tune and that's it, seriously. I know I get the mod bite, with wanting to do more, but it's been such a head ache and tossed money away it's not worth it anymore.

Besides, won't be able to get that 'sweet sounding chatter' from a SMF that makes your Audi sound like a diesel, because you more then doubled the stock output of the engine and the clutch couldn't handle it. Who knows how far beyond stock the DSG will SAFELY handle.

This is the one thing I am extremely excited in getting rid of. Love my current car, except when the windows are down.

S3, some day soon, and pray stock it keeps me from wanting to mod for a while.


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## ChrisFu (Jun 9, 2012)

cyberpmg said:


> If I'm not mistaken (not a lawyer here), there are laws in place here in the US that state that the manufacturer needs to prove that an aftermarket modification/product is responsible for the damage of an OEM item before a warranty can be denied. The manufacturer can quickly flag the car on scanning to detect a tune, but they need to present evidence that it caused the failure. Most people won't follow up on it because of court costs.


Its called the moss-magnuson warranty act. But Audi is banking on you not pursuing the claim to that point and paying all the hefty court and attorney fees.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Rudy_H said:


> I would still question that, but regardless yes I think ballast would have been a better example.
> 
> From modding cars for so long, and new cars at that, the headaches that go with it. All I want is springs / ECU tune and that's it, seriously. I know I get the mod bite, with wanting to do more, but it's been such a head ache and tossed money away it's not worth it anymore.
> 
> ...


Nice. :laugh:


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Cyncris said:


> You should try using Armor all Wheel protectant. The wheels on my A4 would become covered in brake dust in just a few miles. With a solid coating of that stuff on, I have been on a 500 mile trip through the mountains, through rain storms, and done some city driving as well and they are cleaner than they would have been through 30 miles of non-protected driving.
> 
> That stuff is like $17 a can and you get maybe 4-5 uses of hitting all 4 wheels per can, but well worth it IMO.


Does it last well through a wash, though? My friend used it on his Golf R's wheels and said it worked well until he washed the wheels. He doesn't use anything particularly harsh on the wheels, though it's also not something I'd spray on my paint; it's a general-purpose degreaser, diluted heavily. He's as AR as I am, which means he wants to apply it to the barrels as well as the faces, so it's just a pain in the back side if it doesn't hold up.

Based on his claims of its ease in washing off, I suspect it's not much more than a glorified consumer-grade spray wax-masquerading-as-a-polymer product. I'll probably use something a bit more permanent on mine; not sure what, but I know there's stuff out there.


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## Cyncris (Aug 12, 2012)

Dan Halen said:


> Does it last well through a wash, though? My friend used it on his Golf R's wheels and said it worked well until he washed the wheels. He doesn't use anything particularly harsh on the wheels, though it's also not something I'd spray on my paint; it's a general-purpose degreaser, diluted heavily. He's as AR as I am, which means he wants to apply it to the barrels as well as the faces, so it's just a pain in the back side if it doesn't hold up.
> 
> Based on his claims of its ease in washing off, I suspect it's not much more than a glorified consumer-grade spray wax-masquerading-as-a-polymer product. I'll probably use something a bit more permanent on mine; not sure what, but I know there's stuff out there.


Yes and no.
I have ended up just washing the car and only rinsed the wheels. Doing that I managed to keep it on for a month. If you do anything more than rinse the wheels, it will come off.


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## Rudy_H (Jul 6, 2012)

jhatfie said:


> The TD1 flag though is no joke and Audi will not hesitate to void your warranty if they detect a tune. With my CPO 2012 A4 S-Line I likely will get the APR tune after my next service as I have a couple minor warranty items to get looked at. But after, due to TD1 flagging, I will never go to the dealer again for any service and will have a local Audi specialized independent shop do my scheduled services. If something comes up that requires warranty work, I will have my APR dealer flash me completely back to stock prior to seeing the dealer ($40 to flash back to stock + $90 to flash back to stage 1 once warranty work is complete).


Actually to bring this topic back up...I suppose I could research more, but when the google search turns into a sentence...

Can't you just have a spare ECU? Example, the original ECU stays stock and untouched. Then you have a spare from the first idiot that drives his S3 into a telephone pole with say APR Stage I tune. 

Before putting the car in for service, put the stock ECU in. When your car is returned to you put the APR Stage I ECU in?

This is what some were doing for my current car, but the ECU is driver side under the hood, and is held in with 4 screws, takes about 5 minutes to swap them, not sure where they are hiding the ECU in the MQB


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## ChrisFu (Jun 9, 2012)

Rudy_H said:


> Actually to bring this topic back up...I suppose I could research more, but when the google search turns into a sentence...
> 
> Can't you just have a spare ECU? Example, the original ECU stays stock and untouched. Then you have a spare from the first idiot that drives his S3 into a telephone pole with say APR Stage I tune.
> 
> ...



This has been discussed ad nauseum over on AudiZine. Audi thought of this; apparently ECUs cannot be swapped. 

Plus think about it...if you had been to a dealer already even once before, the checksum of the original ECU was already tied to your VIN or customer number/name (if this was not already done at the factory). Showing up with a different ECU is tantamount to showing up with a flashed original.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Yep, it's been a pain in the side for years on VWs. I could find an identical car to my GLI, and the ECUs wouldn't be interchangeable.


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## LWNY (Jul 30, 2008)

just have the tuner flash back to your orig firmware


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

That will not reverse the TD1 scar.


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## Rudy_H (Jul 6, 2012)

Dan Halen said:


> Yep, it's been a pain in the side for years on VWs. I could find an identical car to my GLI, and the ECUs wouldn't be interchangeable.


So just tossing it out there, say somehow your ECU got fried, don't ask how maybe struck by lightning or something out there...

What would happen? New car?



ChrisFu said:


> Plus think about it...if you had been to a dealer already even once before, the checksum of the original ECU was already tied to your VIN or customer number/name (if this was not already done at the factory). Showing up with a different ECU is tantamount to showing up with a flashed original.


I would flash the new ECU not the original stock I meant. However, no one would carry the spare ECU in their trunk I'm sure.

Sorry playing devils advocate, there's always a way when there's a will


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

Rudy_H said:


> So just tossing it out there, say somehow your ECU got fried, don't ask how maybe struck by lightning or something out there...
> 
> What would happen? New car?


No, but it's an almost-guaranteed expensive repair bill above the cost of the ECU. I haven't had such a repair, thankfully, but I assume it's akin to an instrument cluster replacement in that a link back to some centralized VW computer system is critical for the install.

For the cluster, one used to be able to install themselves with a tool such as "vagtacho" and the SKC (secret key code) for the car. That code used to be attached to the key ring shipped with each new VW. Now, SKCs are handled internally and aren't made available to the buyer. I'm led to believe that even the dealer cannot get a code; it's all done behind the scenes when hooked up to this central node of sorts.

That's a class action suit waiting to happen, except for the fact that clusters generally shouldn't need to be replaced. As the current crop of VWs get to 20+ years of age, it's going to be a minor annoyance as clusters start to crap out, I imagine.

It may not be _quite_ that bad for ECUs. The dealer may be able to order, based on VIN, a unit that will install into a vehicle without additional connections to VW networks and such upon installation. I hope I never have to find out.


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## mike3141 (Feb 16, 1999)

In order to start the ECU replacement the dealer has to plug the diagnostic computer into the OBDII port which is what's hooked into the VAG network.


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## Dan Halen (May 16, 2002)

So... it's not unlike an SKC grab for a cluster replacement...?


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## Rudy_H (Jul 6, 2012)

ya, it sounds like it's more complicated then ever.

I want my old B5 S4 back  hopefully someone forgot about one they just bought and placed in a barn they use to own


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