# can i reuse headbolts ?



## christian44 (Apr 21, 2008)

ive had some people tell me that i can reuse the headbolts but others say you cant im not to sure i really dont have the funds to buy new ones. there for an 8v motor. im not sure what brand but there not arp they might be the ones that stretch


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## Schaef (Jan 26, 2008)

*Re: can i reuse headbolts ? (christian44)*

You "shouldnt" but you can http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Just take a close look at them, if they arent hour glass shaped ull be fine. As long as they werent torqued past yeild, they will be fine


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## christian44 (Apr 21, 2008)

thanks allot man no they look fine they have only been in the moto for like 3 months but not sure what i should tourqe them back down to should i put loke tight on them or anything ???


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

The head bolts in your motor are what are known as "torque to yeld" bolts. That means when installed correctly they have been torqued to just short of their limit. So re-use them if you like, but be advised that VW and repair manuals, as well as companies that make the bolts, will tell you to replace them. I have never seen a bolt take on an hourglass shape when torqued to their yeld point, but have a bolt checking gauge (lenght) and have found that after one use they are streched. Your money and engine.


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## vr2jetta (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: (WaterWheels)*

Ive reused them before when I was in a bind but they are 'one use only' bolts.


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

*Re: (vr2jetta)*

Ive reused them many of times....Not saying i condone this cuz like said above they are for one time use only ....but i dont see u having a problem if staying with the stock setup or close to it.....When u decide to go turbo plan on including a good head stud kit into ur budget...


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## dubluv3 16v (Aug 1, 2004)

*Re: (TheMajic86GTI)*

i reused them once cause i didnt pay attention and didnt realize they were stretch bolts so ever since then i have always replaced them. kinda like the clutch and flywheel bolts the only time i ever reused them my friend said he never replaces them so i didnt and they broke had to pull the trans again and get new bolts and another clutch


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

You're supposed to replace those?








J/k... I never have though.
Steve-


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## vwfanforlife (Nov 22, 2006)

*Re: (BSD)*

Just my two cents: Generally the torqued bolts can be re used, but ANGLE torqued bolts cannot. I have reused head bolts plenty, but I have a new one I compare the length to, and if the old ones are longer, then I don't re use them.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: (vwfanforlife)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwfanforlife* »_ Generally the torqued bolts can be re used, but ANGLE torqued bolts cannot. 

Exactly where you came up with the term "angle torque bolts" is not important, but that is the same as torque to yeld. The head bolts are tightened to 40Nm, then to 60Nm, then tightened an additional 180° (most times 2 X 90°). You can not tell if a bolt is streched by looking (comparing), they have to be measured before and then after to discover any stretch. I doubt many people can eyeball a few thousands of an inch stretch.


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## vwfanforlife (Nov 22, 2006)

*Re: (WaterWheels)*

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I work on heavy construction machinery, and according to our manuals, any grade 10.9 bolt torqued to the correct torque may be re used provided there is no corrosion or thread damage. An angle torqued bolt may not, as you actually have no control over the final torque applied. The OP has an 85 Gti, and AFAIK that is a straight 3 stage torque sequence, so you know exactly what the final torque is. By the way, my machines use up to M46 grade 10.9 bolts torqued to 4700nm, and grade 12.9 bolts torqued to 5800nm. Imagine trying to pull that on a hand torque wrench!










_Modified by vwfanforlife at 10:20 PM 10-17-2009_


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: (vwfanforlife)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwfanforlife* »_Sorry to burst your bubble, but I work on heavy construction machinery, and according to our manuals, any grade 10.9 bolt torqued to the correct torque may be re used provided there is no corrosion or thread damage. . . The OP has an 85 Gti, and AFAIK that is a straight 3 stage torque sequence 

No bursting of bubbles going on here, more like an old Confucius saying (I believe) which states something like "To be positive is to be wrong at the top of ones voice". The grade of the bolt is irrelevent. Any normal bolt, regardless of it's grade, can be torqued within its elastic zone and return to it's original size when released. Older engines used this type of head bolt torque method, pre somewhere around 79' for Volkswagens, and the bolts could be used over and over until they broke or wore out. An 85' GTi, RD engine I would guess, has moved past those days and uses a torque to yeld bold. 
You posted "AFAIK" which is kind of a bad argument when trying to say someone else is wrong and you are right, but we will leave that aside. I would suggest that instead of referencing you machine manuals for your grounds for telling someone they are wrong about working on a Volkswagen, that you purchase a repair manual and read it. There you will discover, in black and white which you can then use as back-up in the future, the correct torque setting for the bolts in question. As I stated before, and for most VW engine from around 80' to 96' (beyond that I have no hands on experence), step one - all 10 to 40Nm in the correct order, step two - 60Nm in the correct order, step three - an aditional 180° turn (can be done in 2 turns of 90°).
Here is a link to a basic explaination, rather simple but clear and easy to understand for everyone I think: http://www.acl.co.nz/Tech/Torq...s.pdf


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## vwfanforlife (Nov 22, 2006)

*Re: (WaterWheels)*

Please let's not turn this ugly. I merely stated AFAIK because I come from South Africa, and we used those head bolts up to 1993. And as to your reference that the bolt grade is irrelevant, a grade 8.8 and grade 12.9 are not torque to yield, where a grade 10.9 is, and generally regarded as a once only use. I never claimed to be an expert on volkswagen engines, but what difference does it make in engineering principles? VW buys their bolts from bolt manufacturers, who have to make them industry compliant. Now that I think of it, I think the old hex head bolts were 8.8 grade bolts, anyway. Now they use tri square (torx to us mere South Africans) and they are 10.9 grade bolts. All the new ones are torque to yield (once again, angle torque to us South Africans), But I have re used the 10.9 bolts, and have not had a failure yet. To the OP, U now have a few opinions. To be really safe, replace the bolts. Sorry I tried to save you money by applying basic engineering principles to a machine. Obviously VW and the bolt manufacturers have done their jobs by advertising and selling bolts to the masses. I for one will believe the manuals I have, and continue to use bolts within design specs.


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: (vwfanforlife)*

Someone please explain to me why it is that almost every time someone is shown to be misinformed or just plain old wrong and someone else points it out they try to play this “just trying to help”, “you don’t have to get personal”, “lets not turn this ugly” card? Why would you say that you hope this does not turn ugly? I have no intentions of doing that nor did I think I was pouncing on you about what you first said. I was however hoping that you would regress from this childish soap box kind of display that I can only assume is an attempt to let everyone know you are taking Engineering at school. Not that I wanted any kind of response from you at all, but maybe it would be refreshing to see you act like an adult and say “Ops, I made a mistake” or “Oh, I must have read things wrong” or some other form of saving face without relying on doing a Tap Dance.
I know you’re no expert on Volkswagens, nobody that I can think of is and doubt that anyone here or elsewhere really is either. I do know a lot about water cooled Volkswagens up to about the early 90’s as that is what I have and do work on. I also have parts programs which include South Africa and the torque to yield head bolts have been used there just as long as everywhere else. So if you have ever repaired or rebuilt one of these engines then you should have used these bolts and this torque method. Unless you bought after market ones like from ARP which are different altogether.
The original post is a question about whether the bolts can or can not be used more than once. Not about their grade, torque to yield bolts are most times ISO grade 10.9 but do not have to be, or about what a manual at work tells you to do when fixing a machine or about grades of bolts in general. Much of what you have posted is correct, but has nothing to do with installing cylinder head bolts on an 85 Volkswagen or following a repair manual for one. The simple answer is that they are not intended to be re-used according to repair manuals for these cars/engines and the vehicle manufacturer, period.
Now if you want to discuss this in greater detail I would be more than happy to do so but I think a separate topic should be started. Then you can state your case for re-using Volkswagen head bolts and we can all hash out the idea while sticking to that topic.


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## LT1M21Stingray (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: can i reuse headbolts ? (christian44)*

Short answer. No
Long answer. No, unless you are stuck, and need to get moving.


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## Mk1 fa'days (Apr 24, 2008)

Aren't new OEM ones like $20????


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## christian44 (Apr 21, 2008)

i wish u out find em dor me for 20 bucks


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (christian44)*

They're widely available on-line for under $2.50 each, you need 10.


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## LT1M21Stingray (Sep 14, 2006)

*Re: (christian44)*


_Quote, originally posted by *christian44* »_i wish u out find em dor me for 20 bucks


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## MK2SnowPilot (Sep 8, 2005)

*Re: (Mtl-Marc)*

And the definitive answer from the Bentley:

_Quote, originally posted by *Bentley Publishers* »_CAUTION-
On diesel and 16-valve gasoline engines, the head bolts are designed to be used only once. Always replace them with new head bolts when removing cylinder head.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: (MK2SnowPilot)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MK2SnowPilot* »_And the definitive answer from the Bentley:
Quote, originally posted by Bentley Publishers »


CAUTION-
On diesel and 16-valve gasoline engines, the head bolts are designed to be used only once. Always replace them with new head bolts when removing cylinder head.
 


Oh good, I thought I was going nuts when I couldn't find any such reference in there concerning 8V head bolts.


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## vwfanforlife (Nov 22, 2006)

*Re: (WaterWheels)*

Hi Waterwheels. Okay then, I apologize. Nowhere in a VW repair manual does it specifically state that you can reuse head bolts, except in an '85 diesel motor. I attach a few excerpts from a few manuals I have in my possession from VW, Ford, Toyota and Peugeot. End of the day, maybe most people feel safer with new bolts. Maybe most people would also feel safer with new brakes every service? Or new airbags every 2 years? The problem is to balance necessary and unnecessary costs. Best advice is to follow the manual for your specific vehicle. Haynes manuals always state to replace head bolts, but what about a mini, a fiat500 or a vw beetle? They use studs and nuts...


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## TheMajic86GTI (Aug 9, 2009)

*Re: can i reuse headbolts ? (christian44)*

Why is this thread still even going????





















But ill add fuel to the fire anyways.....






















This is per my 1990 Chiltons manual:
NOTE: 12 point socket stretch type head bolts are now used in place of the older 6 point bolts. These should be used in complete sets only and need not be retorqued after any mileage interval. These bolts may only be used once and should be replaced at every overhaul. THROW THE OLD BOLTS AWAY!!! These bolts do not need retorquing after any mileage interval.
Thats the way its written straight out of the manual....

Now on the other hand in the Haynes manual no where does it state anything about getting new head bolts just the removal and installation procedures....
In the Bentley the only thing i could find like stated above is this...
CAUTION-
On diesel and 16-valve gasoline engines, the head bolts are designed to be used only once. Always replace them with new head bolts when removing cylinder head. 
Nothing about the 8 valve gasoline motor!!!
So theirs all 3 common manuals...and only 1 out of the 3 give a definitive answer..... 
My opinion, i reuse them!!! and ive never ever ever had a problem.... The only time i use new head bolts is when i do a newly rebuilt motor....


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## WaterWheels (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: (vwfanforlife)*

I think you should have stopped here "Okay then, I apologize". As except for one other thing you said above, the rest is just a bit more of that tap dance I was talking about. I think the issue of if or if not to re-use cylinder head bolts when working on a *Volkswagen*has nothing to do with a Ford, Toyota or Peugeot. If the question were about one of those other makes then the answer just might have been different, right? But this is however a forum for Volkswagens and the responses when given cover this make of car. The bit about new brakes every service or air bags every two years is just plain old foolish ranting. And there is no balance here between necessary or unnecessary costs, it's just plain old doing what should be done vs. cutting corners (no matter the reason). I mean using your logic one should re-use their piston rings when installing new pistons if the seal on the old pistons was OK or re-use the old o-ring seal when replacing a waterpump because the old seal was still not leaking or how about just draining the old oil and dumping it back in the engine during an oil change, and re-use the filter too while your at it as they were still lubricating the engine, right? Heck, you could save lots of money on _unnecessary_ parts doing things this way.
You can twist it around this way or that way to attempt to make it seem in your mind like what you said before was correct, but it never will be. You tried to come off like Mr. Wizzard by claiming someone was wrong when they were not and attempting to back up your claim with repair methods for heavy machines and other makes of cars. The best and most intelligent thing you have said so far is this; "Best advice is to follow the manual for your specific vehicle". Now why did you not use this advice yourself instead of all this other crap your trying to feed everyone?


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## vwfanforlife (Nov 22, 2006)

*Re: (WaterWheels)*

http://www.enginebuildermag.co....aspx


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