# 2018 Tiguan 0-60 times after break in?



## bakkwudz (Aug 22, 2016)

Curious if anyone out there with a 2018 Tiguan can comment on their 0-60 times after they put some miles on it? Quite a few on here have commented that the performance lag seems to be almost non existent after a few hundred miles and the transmission has a chance to "learn" so curious to see if it effects 0-60 times. i spoke to a friend that works at a local VW dealership and the transmission learning seems to be true. He drove a new Atlas on a 1500km road trip and he said the difference was night and day from when he started the trip to the end of it.


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## baboondumdum (Apr 15, 2016)

Is this "learning" thing actually a thing, or is this a wives tale + placebo effect? Maybe you just get used to a vehicle over time and it becomes normal? I've rented plenty of different makes and models of cars and at first you always feel it's a little foreign but you get used it by the end of the day + the whole duration of the trip.

I think simply making the throttle more sensitive might be enough to fool the sense of those that say the engine is underpowered. I drove the CX5 recently and it's engine should be no more powerful than the new tiguan, and yet the CX5 immediately felt more 'preppy' than even my first gen tiguan, which has a higher HP engine than both the CX5 and new tig. Should be an easy fix if the throttle response is electronically mapped.


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## bakkwudz (Aug 22, 2016)

baboondumdum said:


> Is this "learning" thing actually a thing, or is this a wives tale + placebo effect? Maybe you just get used to a vehicle over time and it becomes normal? I've rented plenty of different makes and models of cars and at first you always feel it's a little foreign but you get used it by the end of the day + the whole duration of the trip.
> 
> I think simply making the throttle more sensitive might be enough to fool the sense of those that say the engine is underpowered. I drove the CX5 recently and it's engine should be no more powerful than the new tiguan, and yet the CX5 immediately felt more 'preppy' than even my first gen tiguan, which has a higher HP engine than both the CX5 and new tig. Should be an easy fix if the throttle response is electronically mapped.


Hence my curiosity. Trying to separate fact from fiction. 9.1s 0-60 is well below average for the competition so if the "learning" or remapping of the throtte changes this it would be good to know.


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## gtguard (Mar 15, 2005)

100% placebo.


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## TIGSEL (Dec 22, 2011)

"Learning thing" is definitely real and has been in place on VAG and many other vehicles for over a decade. Read here: http://en.volkswagen.com/en/innovat...ical-glossary/dynamisches_schaltprogramm.html


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## YikeGrymon (Sep 12, 2005)

TIGSEL said:


> "Learning thing" is definitely real and has been in place on VAG and many other vehicles for over a decade. Read here: http://en.volkswagen.com/en/innovat...ical-glossary/dynamisches_schaltprogramm.html


uh

*The program also adapts to the driver’s individual style and adjusts the gearshift points accordingly. If the driver adopts a sporty driving style, the engine will be allowed to rev higher through the gears, but if the accelerator is used more lightly, the gearbox will change up earlier. This has no influence on the kickdown function, which is available in every situation.
*
Re-read, and note what's actually stated. Especially in the middle sentence. "Adapting to the driver's individual style" means just that... and at that moment. If a driver exhibits ten different "individual" styles at ten different moments on a two-hour outing, the transmission will "respond" (or perhaps we should more properly say _function_) in ten different ways. Or "adapt" to it by changing shift points. This is what automatic transmissions have done for like 40 years.

The language in this paragraph says nothing about LEARNING, but it seems written in such a way to imply learning, sure. Possibly because that's what people are looking for? Given some of VAG's recent um deceptions, which we don't need to go into here, I'm thinking that sort of misleading is exactly the intention.

Writer-editor/language professional here. But what the hell do I know. I think what baboon said about how we simply get used to the way a certain car functions is actually what's going on. Especially if it's one that you own (or lease) and have for longer-term use than a rental, or whatever he added.


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## baboondumdum (Apr 15, 2016)

YikeGrymon said:


> uh
> 
> *The program also adapts to the driver’s individual style and adjusts the gearshift points accordingly. If the driver adopts a sporty driving style, the engine will be allowed to rev higher through the gears, but if the accelerator is used more lightly, the gearbox will change up earlier. This has no influence on the kickdown function, which is available in every situation.
> *
> ...


I agree. Based on the language, it appears to be an instantaneous on-demand response to the situation. I don't know if the car actually has "machine learning" over an extended long term ownership period of the car. That's some AI stuff that I doubt is in these VWs. What exactly would they be changing anyway? They learn the guy presses his gas lightly generally so they will do what? Make the gas peddle more sensitive? Less sensitive? What's going on? 

On the other hand, based on that description, it appears they simply just change shift points when you go up/down hill, heavy/light car, etc. Which is obviously done and you feel it in the moment. But Is the car actually going out and changing shift points or changing throttle sensitivity over the long term depending on what they 'learn' from a driver? I think this is the question. Unless that question is specifically addressed, I feel it is a matter of getting used to a foreign vehicle that becomes more familiar over time.


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## TIGSEL (Dec 22, 2011)

YikeGrymon said:


> uh
> 
> *The program also adapts to the driver’s individual style and adjusts the gearshift points accordingly. If the driver adopts a sporty driving style, the engine will be allowed to rev higher through the gears, but if the accelerator is used more lightly, the gearbox will change up earlier. This has no influence on the kickdown function, which is available in every situation.
> *
> ...


Unfortunately it can be interpreted both ways but there only one right way


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## baboondumdum (Apr 15, 2016)

TIGSEL said:


> Unfortunately it can be interpreted both ways but there only one right way


But what exactly is it "learning" and in so doing, what is it "adjusting"?

Lets say we describe the most common user experience and complaint that it is underpowered. I am assuming given the throttle response. So the car detects long term light gas pedal usage and decides to make it more sensitive? Because it reads human emotions and detects the user complaining it is too sluggish and realizes ergonomically the user is most comfortable with a light foot position so it adjusts itself for him? Or it detects user distaste for early shifts and so now it chooses to dwell longer and rev higher RPMs at lower gears? What exactly is it learning and what is it changing? I don't get it.

Conversely, for someone heavy footed, does the car go "hey buddy, you press too hard on the gas so I'm gonna make the gas pedal less responsive for you and maybe up shift faster than normal".

To me, it makes more sense that people get used to a once foreign vehicle and you don't notice things/problems anymore once acclimated to the new environment. Maybe you subconsciously press the gas pedals harder and more decisively and get the appropriate responsiveness you'd like your head. But originally you may have come from a Mazda where the throttle was super responsive, so the VW felt off initially.


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## YikeGrymon (Sep 12, 2005)

^More logical thinking from baboon.^

But let's get to what's _*really*_ going on: Clearly, the cars with a microphone overhead are recording the driver cursing and wondering aloud when the transmission does shht that the lowly/inferior human at the wheel doesn't understand. These remarks and outbursts are then interpreted by the transmission control module and... well you get it. _OF COURSE_ that's how it really works.

----------------------------

Back to reality, okay. I stand by my original thoughts. For a few reasons.

One is that I’m quite close to a certain dealership where there are two Service Advisors who are all sorts of knowledgeable. They have like 35 years of VW between them. They’ve both told me that the whole auto-trans-learning business is “a total myth.” One, the guy who’s been there the longer of the two, added that he’d love to know how the myth originated because he’s heard about it for years now.

Two is that “adapting” and “learning” are two very different ideas. They’re not the same thing at all. ADAPTING is buttoning up your coat when you go outside and find that it's colder than you thought it was. LEARNING is thinking ahead to take your coat with you when you see on the thermometer hanging outside that it's 70 degrees... but it's October and you know it'll dip into the upper 50s when the sun goes down. Semantics R Us though, of course.

Three is that, if VW’s automatic transmissions actually did “learn” an individual’s driving style or habits or tendencies and store that info someplace, and then tweak or update their programming accordingly, _and store that information someplace and base how the transmission operates thereafter on that_… not only would VW say that explicitly everywhere but they’d hype the LS out of it as well, given how they bang on about German Engineering and how clever they are about everything. As it is, they haven’t used the term “learning” at all. They’ve said “adapts.” And most cars don't have one exclusive driver all the time anyway. If things worked as though they did, it'd probably create more problems than "conveniences."

Four is what I learned (from said two Service Advisors) long ago regarding the DSG in the Jetta that I had for a while: The only thing resembling “learning” that goes on in any of VW’s transmissions concerns something that monitors clutch wear in those DSGs and works toward maximizing the clutch life in them. But word was that that has nothing to do with shift points etc. It was spoken of as “kind of a higher-tech version of how self-adjusting brakes self-adjust as they wear.”

Anyway, I think it can be interpreted either way or both ways, as TIGSEL notes above, only if one assumes that adapting and learning are indeed the same thing. Which, I’m pretty sure, anyone who’s into electronically controlled anything will say is not so.

bla bla, woof woof

This seems to be a discussion of the whole thing in more general terms, commenting on the overall state of the engineering in a “conventional” (i.e., torque-converter) automatic transmission.

/ramblings from one guy who maybe understands this stuff almost as well as he thinks he does... but no guarantees


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## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

Alex on Autos got 7.7 seconds, which is mid-pack.


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## baboondumdum (Apr 15, 2016)

YikeGrymon said:


> ^More logical thinking from baboon.^
> 
> But let's get to what's _*really*_ going on: Clearly, the cars with a microphone overhead are recording the driver cursing and wondering aloud when the transmission does shht that the lowly/inferior human at the wheel doesn't understand. These remarks and outbursts are then interpreted by the transmission control module and... well you get it. _OF COURSE_ that's how it really works.
> 
> ...


iOS keyboard learns common phrases you'd use if you turn suggestion on. But other than that, the car I'd presume is programed to be the most efficient and capable given the demands on the road and input from the user. So the nature of the gear shifting and how long to dwell on each gear given the environment is fixed pretty much I'd imagine (for normal or S mode etc). So what can possibly change over time, other than some ability for the car to determine a user has a desire for more power than is given? Which seems like some mind reading ability is required. Which is pretty high up there in AI.


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## bakkwudz (Aug 22, 2016)

BsickPassat said:


> Alex on Autos got 7.7 seconds, which is mid-pack.


That's a big difference between what car and driver got (2 seconds). What could account for that big a difference, assuming both are accurate?


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## TIGSEL (Dec 22, 2011)

Sometimes, (no matter how ironic it sound) mechanics actually know less than enthusiasts, ask any VW mechanic, lol. We can go back and forth on this topic forever but the fact of the matter is, transmissions can not adapt or learn individual person's style in minutes, it takes time (300-600 miles) for TCU to record data and analyze driving style so that it can change shift points accordingly (S mode isn't learnable). 

Why VW is not raving about it? Well, maybe because this technology has been around and utilized for over a decade in majority of vehicle out there. This isn't news anymore, nor is it something out of ordinary. Who now raves about disc brakes or ABS?

https://www.yourmechanic.com/question/what-is-automatic-transmission-adaptive-learning

Here is a good one (skip to "adaptation learn"), pay more attention to "notes": http://www.atra.com/Webinars/Chrysler/948TE_Introduction.pdf

https://books.google.com/books?id=p...onepage&q=self learning transmissions&f=false Page 196


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## tig11 (Dec 20, 2015)

Things seemed to have gotten directed only on transmission "adaptation/learning". What about the actual feedback regarding acceleration improvement with increased break in/ mileage ?


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## CC'ed (Dec 1, 2009)

The typical after-break-in improvement in 0-60 times is about 0.1 to 0.3 seconds.


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## AIRider (Aug 7, 2001)

I find 0-60 times so irrelevant in day to day drivability, how often do you go 0-60 from red to red. NEVER! I'm more interested in 0-30, and off the line torque. The Tig satisfies me plenty. In S mode, the Tig is plenty good imo.


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## gtguard (Mar 15, 2005)

AIRider said:


> I find 0-60 times so irrelevant in day to day drivability, how often do you go 0-60 from red to red. NEVER! I'm more interested in 0-30, and off the line torque. The Tig satisfies me plenty. In S mode, the Tig is plenty good imo.


No no no, I want an SUV/CUV that can do 0-60 in 4.5 seconds, good tech, and a price of about 30k.


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## socialD (Sep 19, 2011)

*So what is the 0-60? US 2.0TSI*

Reports range from mid 7s(Alex on autos) to more than 10s(consumer reports). Others 8 or 9s.

Just a lot of variability based on traction control, elevation, temps, etc? Or do the various driving modes make a big difference when flat out and reviewers aren?t setting correctly?

Once I?m through break-in I plan to test it out with OBD Link. See folks say that initial lag off the line sorts itself out after learning as well and the review testers may not have been broken in yet.


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## socialD (Sep 19, 2011)

Over 1k miles now. Had a nice empty stretch of a 55mph zone with level ground and was first at the light. Gave it its all in sport mode. OBD Fusion logged a rather disappointing 9.3 seconds. Ambient temps in the 40s. Intake temps in the 50s.


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## bateau (Jun 16, 2013)

gtguard said:


> No no no, I want an SUV/CUV that can do 0-60 in 4.5 seconds, good tech, and a price of about 30k.


So you’re buying a 2015 Macan turbo in 2025. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## socialD (Sep 19, 2011)

Here's the OBD logging info for that run, or at least the portion I can fit in a screen shot.
Topped out at 19.58psi
10.11ft/s^2 so slightly better than if you just drove off a cliff 
Calculated 194hp/217tq peaks


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## LarsTomasson (Jul 2, 2018)

What fuel were you using?


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## LarsTomasson (Jul 2, 2018)

is the speed GPS speed, or speedometer speed?


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## GavinD (Jun 19, 2014)

socialD said:


> Here's the OBD logging info for that run, or at least the portion I can fit in a screen shot.
> Topped out at 19.58psi
> 10.11ft/s^2 so slightly better than if you just drove off a cliff
> Calculated 194hp/217tq peaks


Hate to break it to you, but gravitational acceleration is 32.2ft/s^2 in Freedom Units. You're thinking of 9.8m/s^2... so not faster than driving off a cliff.


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## socialD (Sep 19, 2011)

LarsTomasson said:


> is the speed GPS speed, or speedometer speed?


It's from using an OBD dongle with OBD Fusion. Which I presume uses the speedometer readout from there. Not sure, could also be using the phone's gps. I've logged similar results with both 87 and 93 but it's been awhile. Should retry now that I have more miles on.


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## socialD (Sep 19, 2011)

My 9.3 isn't far off what Car and Driver got either. 9.1 for the 4motion. They got 8.2 for the FWD so the AWD penalty is significant.
https://www.caranddriver.com/review...ving-impressions-review-car-and-driver-page-4


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## buzzindsm (Sep 2, 2017)

I don't know the 0-60 times but I can tell you that the Tiguan is painfully slow and when you do accelerate hard it doesn't sound pretty.


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## socialD (Sep 19, 2011)

The low end torque is good around town. Usually the first person off and away at lights and such just driving casually. But yeah when you're flooring it the experience is rather underwhelming in the higher rpms.


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## mattchatr (Jan 26, 2018)

Just bought a dragy. I don't have any stock run times but I'm in the middle of a transition. I have a 2019 Highline R-line 4 motion with the 3rd row so I'm likely as heavy as a Tiguan can be. However, with the Neuspeed Power Module, 91 octane and factory airbox the best I got was 8.1s so I was a little disappointed to see a 7.7 as someone stated above on a stock Tiguan. The best you can brake torque the car is 2500rpm so it bogs a bit after letting go, definitely no launch control with our 8 speed but best you can do, and with Traction Control off.

That being said, I am going back to stock soon as I have my 15K service up next week. I'll do some runs when I have the PM out to see where things are. I definitely notice a difference with the Power Module and it was a cheap mod but after the 15K service I'm getting a proper Unitronic tune. 

I'll post more later that will include my stock numbers, Neuspeed PM, and then Unitronic Stage 1.

Stay tuned.


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