# PMW balljoint extenders



## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Updates on page 2 & 3*
So I finally got them in the mail today. Thanks to Dave @ PMW for the help. They look great; can't wait to get them installed.
http://www.pmwltd.com
One note, the extenders need to be spread open just like the factory slot on the spinder inorder to get the extenders in. Basically just needs to be opened up slightly. Also, its recommended to paint them with a durable paint, light engine paint, to help protect them from surface rust.
If anyone is interested in ordering, you'll need the 19mm extender for the 2.0. I think the VR6 is the same size, but don't quote me. This is a great solution for us mk3 people that can't wait for H2Sport to make new spindles.










_Modified by VWn00b at 7:23 PM 7-8-2008_


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## briang (Mar 10, 1999)

*Re: PMW balljoint extenders (VWn00b)*

Looking forward to a report.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: PMW balljoint extenders (briang)*

Me too. I'm waiting for some more funds so I can send my control arms out to Jarod @ SCCH for some spherical bearings. When those get back its new tie rod ends then off to alignment. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: PMW balljoint extenders (VWn00b)*

Nice. Wonder if they can make the same thing for MkIV...
Do they also make an adapter for the tie-rods? I suspect that this mod along with lowering springs will bring about some bump-steer issues.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: PMW balljoint extenders (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Nice. Wonder if they can make the same thing for MkIV...
Do they also make an adapter for the tie-rods? I suspect that this mod along with lowering springs will bring about some bump-steer issues.

If the Mk4 uses a 19mm or 17mm balljoint, then they should work. He sells both sizes of extenders.
Tie rod adapter? Not sure what you mean.
This mod is supposed to help correct the geometry when lowered; it pushes the control arm down so its more parallel. Not sure how it would cause bump-steer issues. I was under the impression that it helped to lower bump-steer.


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## HilF (Jan 10, 2004)

*Re: PMW balljoint extenders (VWn00b)*

watching this


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: PMW balljoint extenders (VWn00b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWn00b* »_
If the Mk4 uses a 19mm or 17mm balljoint, then they should work. He sells both sizes of extenders.
Tie rod adapter? Not sure what you mean.
This mod is supposed to help correct the geometry when lowered; it pushes the control arm down so its more parallel. Not sure how it would cause bump-steer issues. I was under the impression that it helped to lower bump-steer.

The tie-rods control steering; the LCA and strut control the suspension.
If you modify the suspension without modifying the steering, what happens?
For example if you lower 2" and correct the suspension geometry with these adapters, where does that leave the tie-rods? They are now at a different angle than what the OEM intended = more bump-steer.
I'm not saying this is a bad mod, I just want to know how the testing of bump-steer goes. You can get a bump-steer gauge from Harborfreight or Longacre for not much money. Presumably, this company knows how much bump steer their kit introduces, perhaps its not very much. But they don't list it on their website.


_Modified by phatvw at 3:57 PM 4-3-2008_


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: PMW balljoint extenders (phatvw)*

I get what your saying now. I might look into it. I've still got a few things to get ordered and installed before I can do any testing.


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## HilF (Jan 10, 2004)

*Re: PMW balljoint extenders (VWn00b)*

use a heim joint as the tierod end and space that up with washers as much as needed. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

Something kinda like this? This is for a Porsche, but its the same idea, I guess.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: PMW balljoint extenders (white_r!ce)*


_Quote, originally posted by *white_r!ce* »_use a heim joint as the tierod end and space that up with washers as much as needed. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


Something like that... But I would just use washers for testing, then machine a permanent spacer out of steel or aluminum or something. The fewer surfaces, the better.
Either way its gonna take some testing to figure out the best way.


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## HilF (Jan 10, 2004)

*Re: (VWn00b)*

simpler








_image courtesy of veetarded_


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (white_r!ce)*

Theres no off-the-shelf rod end like that in the picture that fits directly on the factory tie rods is there?
Also, what are the changes that happen when moving the tie rod from the top to the bottom?


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## HilF (Jan 10, 2004)

*Re: (VWn00b)*

you're trying to keep the tie rod parallel with the control arm.
you should be able to go to a good hardware store (nuts and bolts type place) and get a spherical endlink/heim joint that'll fit on your tierob. then put a long bolt through the mf'er








(so i oversimplified that a tad....)


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (white_r!ce)*


_Quote, originally posted by *white_r!ce* »_you're trying to keep the tie rod parallel with the control arm.

If this is what I'm after then I'll wait until i have everything together, then see where I stand.
Thanks for the info though http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (white_r!ce)*


_Quote, originally posted by *white_r!ce* »_you're trying to keep the tie rod parallel with the control arm.



I'm not sure that is entirely correct. I think what you want to do is preserve the OEM relationship between LCA angle and tie-rod angle throughout the compression stroke as much as possible. The tie-rod and LCA are different lengths, so I don't think they will be parallel.
So if you take 5 measurements for the OEM stroke then compare that to the lowered stoke, then you can try to model it on the OEM. But perhaps the OEM setup is non-optimal.
Perhaps I'm full of **** - but armchair tuning is fun


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Perhaps I'm full of **** - but armchair tuning is fun

















I have a track event June 1st, so I'm preparing for that. So we'll see how it goes. Its going to be on the same track I ran last year in the summer with just the coilovers and some hankook street tires. This year I'll have Kuhmo r-compounds, GC camber plates, spherical CA bearings, and these little things, so hopefully I'll have alot more fun. Can't wait to do some testing.


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## 2 doors (Jun 18, 2003)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_

I'm not sure that is entirely correct. I think what you want to do is preserve the OEM relationship between LCA angle and tie-rod angle throughout the compression stroke as much as possible. The tie-rod and LCA are different lengths, so I don't think they will be parallel.
Perhaps I'm full of **** - but armchair tuning is fun










I'll arm chair with you. Bump steer is solely due to the tie rod angles. If the vehicle is lowered 2", it will have bump steer. Adding these ball joint extenders will correct the LCA's but do nothing for the tie rods. However, they should not induce any MORE bump steer. You want the tie rods horizontal (parallel to the ground) period. They move in an arc. When they are horizontal, they have very little X motion (side to side - steer) for a given Y motion (up and down). If they are already angled, any additional Y motion will give more X motion. Hit a bump, suspension travels, tie rods move inboard --> bump steer.
I learned about bump steer from lifting trucks, not lowering cars.


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

*Re: (2 doors)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2 doors* »_
I'll arm chair with you. Bump steer is solely due to the tie rod angles. If the vehicle is lowered 2", it will have bump steer. Adding these ball joint extenders will correct the LCA's but do nothing for the tie rods. However, they should not induce any MORE bump steer. You want the tie rods horizontal (parallel to the ground) period. They move in an arc. When they are horizontal, they have very little X motion (side to side - steer) for a given Y motion (up and down). If they are already angled, any additional Y motion will give more X motion. Hit a bump, suspension travels, tie rods move inboard --> bump steer.
I learned about bump steer from lifting trucks, not lowering cars.









I'm sorry, but you've been misinformed. This is straight-up wrong; especially when talking about mk3 VWs, and even for a lot of trucks. Phatvw's answer is pretty close to correct.
One way of estimating the proper location of the tie rod is to align the tie rod such that if an imaginary line is drawn through the pivot points (inner and outer tie rod ends), it will intersect the instant center (not roll center, instant center) of the strut/control arm. I can further explain this or search for a pic if somebody wants. Another estimation is to keep the tie rod parallel with the lower control arm on a strut car. These are just a rules of thumb however, as everything changes as soon as you compress the suspension or steer. The best way is to figure it out through 3D modeling, trial-and-error (shim washers and a bumpsteer gauge as mentioned earlier), or very ugly linear algebra.
VWn00b - When you IM'ed me a couple days ago, you mentioned the tie rod before you mentioned the balljoint extender, and I forgot to go back on some of the stuff I said. The reason I have bumpsteer with the flipped tie rod is because the angle of the tie rod is much closer to parallel with the ground than the control arm. If you install these lower balljoint extenders, the control arm will now become parallel and the tie rod will also need to become [roughly] parallel with the ground as well. I say roughly, because as I said above it's not a "this is the answer 100% of the time" type of geometry problem. 
Based on my own experience with my mk3, with flipped tie rods, with stock control arm location, lowered ~2-4", the outer tie rod end must go down _slightly _to correct bumpsteer. With lowered balljoints, the outer tie rod end must go down _quite a bit _- possibly enough to warrant flipping it over the spindle. In this case, you will benefit from flipping your tie rod. You may also be able to use just a female threaded M14x1.5 rod end (spherical rod end, heim joint) and the stock jam nut, then just drill out the knuckle and replace it with an M14 bolt. This would eliminate the spacers I made, which enabled me to use a male threaded M14x2.0 rod end.
To those who mentioned tie rod spacers - that won't really work because the tie rod needs to go _down_, toward the ground. It works in some cars, like some Porsches and some Nissans, because the tie rod is mounted to the bottom of the spindle from the factory. Our VWs have the tie rod mounted above the spindle, which requires either flipping + spacing or making new spindles.
p.s. The mk3 VR6 balljoint is a completely different style, these will not work with a mk3 VR6 spindle. The mk4 style would also need to be different, this was discussed in another thread and there are complications involved. 



_Modified by Afazz at 11:18 PM 4-3-2008_


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

*Re: (VWn00b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWn00b* »_Theres no off-the-shelf rod end like that in the picture that fits directly on the factory tie rods is there?


FYI, that rod end is off-the-shelf, and fits the stock tie rods. This is the female M14x1.5 rod end I was talking about above. I think that car is a mk1 though, it may not be M14, but they make a similar item that fits your car.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (Afazz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Afazz* »_
I'm sorry, but you've been misinformed. This is straight-up wrong; especially when talking about mk3 VWs, and even for a lot of trucks. Phatvw's answer is pretty close to correct.
One way of estimating the proper location of the tie rod is to align the tie rod such that if an imaginary line is drawn through the pivot points (inner and outer tie rod ends), it will intersect the instant center (not roll center, instant center) of the strut/control arm. I can further explain this or search for a pic if somebody wants. Another estimation is to keep the tie rod parallel with the lower control arm on a strut car. These are just a rules of thumb however, as everything changes as soon as you compress the suspension or steer. The best way is to figure it out through 3D modeling, trial-and-error (shim washers and a bumpsteer gauge as mentioned earlier), or very ugly linear algebra.
VWn00b - When you IM'ed me a couple days ago, you mentioned the tie rod before you mentioned the balljoint extender, and I forgot to go back on some of the stuff I said. The reason I have bumpsteer with the flipped tie rod is because the angle of the tie rod is much closer to parallel with the ground than the control arm. If you install these lower balljoint extenders, the control arm will now become parallel and the tie rod will also need to become [roughly] parallel with the ground as well. I say roughly, because as I said above it's not a "this is the answer 100% of the time" type of geometry problem. 
Based on my own experience with my mk3, with flipped tie rods, with stock control arm location, lowered ~2-4", the outer tie rod end must go down _slightly _to correct bumpsteer. With lowered balljoints, the outer tie rod end must go down _quite a bit _- possibly enough to warrant flipping it over the spindle. In this case, you will benefit from flipping your tie rod. You may also be able to use just a female threaded M14x1.5 rod end (spherical rod end, heim joint) and the stock jam nut, then just drill out the knuckle and replace it with an M14 bolt. This would eliminate the spacers I made, which enabled me to use a male threaded M14x2.0 rod end.
To those who mentioned tie rod spacers - that won't really work because the tie rod needs to go _down_, toward the ground. It works in some cars, like some Porsches and some Nissans, because the tie rod is mounted to the bottom of the spindle from the factory. Our VWs have the tie rod mounted above the spindle, which requires either flipping + spacing or making new spindles.
p.s. The mk3 VR6 balljoint is a completely different style, these will not work with a mk3 VR6 spindle. The mk4 style would also need to be different, this was discussed in another thread and there are complications involved. 

Linear Algebra isn't hard, but I hate math, so I guess I'll have to experiment once I get everything together.
So you think I will most likely need to flip the end over?

_Quote, originally posted by *Afazz* »_
FYI, that rod end is off-the-shelf, and fits the stock tie rods. This is the female M14x1.5 rod end I was talking about above. I think that car is a mk1 though, it may not be M14, but they make a similar item that fits your car.

I asked you about that earlier but you said I needed to do what you did, so it had me confused.








Appreciate the long post. I'll definitely be looking into the heim joint setup.
Pegasus Racing has the ends for $68 a piece








I need to get my control arms out to Jarod so he can make me some spherical bearings. After that I can order the new ends.


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

*Re: (VWn00b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWn00b* »_
So you think I will most likely need to flip the end over?


Cliff's Notes: Yes. I also believe you can just use that $68 rod end from Pegasus and not have to machine the adapter that I did, but I cannot be 100% certain since I have never tried it. You will still have to drill out the taper in the spindle to accept an M14 bolt.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (Afazz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Afazz* »_
Cliff's Notes: Yes. I also believe you can just use that $68 rod end from Pegasus and not have to machine the adapter that I did, but I cannot be 100% certain since I have never tried it. You will still have to drill out the taper in the spindle to accept an M14 bolt.

lol. thanks for the short version http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I'm gonna look into finding some high misalignment female ends. Pegasus doesn't seem to have any.


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## 2 doors (Jun 18, 2003)

*Re: (Afazz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Afazz* »_
I'm sorry, but you've been misinformed. This is straight-up wrong; especially when talking about mk3 VWs, and even for a lot of trucks. Phatvw's answer is pretty close to correct.
One way of estimating the proper location of the tie rod is to align the tie rod such that if an imaginary line is drawn through the pivot points (inner and outer tie rod ends), it will intersect the instant center (not roll center, instant center) of the strut/control arm. I can further explain this or search for a pic if somebody wants. Another estimation is to keep the tie rod parallel with the lower control arm on a strut car. These are just a rules of thumb however, as everything changes as soon as you compress the suspension or steer. The best way is to figure it out through 3D modeling, trial-and-error (shim washers and a bumpsteer gauge as mentioned earlier), or very ugly linear algebra.


I was pretty much talking out of my a$$ on that one. After I posted it, I thought about it some more and realised I was looking at it too simply. I wasn't really thinking about the control arms in relation to to the tie rods. Keeping the LCA and tie rods parallel certainly is an easy place to start. As for me, I'll keep my car at stock height and not worry about it.


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## abawp (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: (Afazz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Afazz* »_
One way of estimating the proper location of the tie rod is to align the tie rod such that if an imaginary line is drawn through the pivot points (inner and outer tie rod ends), it will intersect the instant center (not roll center, instant center) of the strut/control arm. *I can further explain this or search for a pic if somebody wants*. 

Please?


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (abawp)*

http://www.longacreracing.com/...ID=13


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## abawp (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Fascinating, thanks http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## momoVR6 (Jul 11, 2002)

*Re: PMW balljoint extenders (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Nice. Wonder if they can make the same thing for MkIV...

If these will work for a MKIII VR6 then they will work for a MKIV as the MKIII VR6 ball joint part number has been superseded to the MKIV part.


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## blackflygti (Sep 19, 2001)

*Re: PMW balljoint extenders (momoVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *momoVR6* »_If these will work for a MKIII VR6 then they will work for a MKIV as the MKIII VR6 ball joint part number has been superseded to the MKIV part.

...as noted by Afazz:
"p.s. The mk3 VR6 balljoint is a completely different style, these will not work with a mk3 VR6 spindle. The mk4 style would also need to be different, this was discussed in another thread and there are complications involved."


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## blackflygti (Sep 19, 2001)

*Re: (Afazz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Afazz* »_The mk4 style would also need to be different, this was discussed in another thread and there are complications involved.

Do you have a link to this thread?


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

Update:
So I got word from Dave @ PMW the other day about tie rod end relocators.
The sleeves will fit inside the spindle when drilled out to 5/8". Then the tie rod end fits in the bottom, and then torque everything down. Seems simple enough.
I'm waiting to here back from him when he will be able to ship out the first batch.
On a side note, I got my GC plates in earlier this week, and now I'm waiting to get my spare set of control arms out to Jarod @ SCCH so he can make some spherical bearings.


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## nextproject (Nov 18, 2007)

thats funny i guess i didnt search well enough, as i just contacted whiteline regarding making a set of roll center adjusters for our cars! so these will fit any mk2? technically a 90 corrado is a mk2 and these will fit? i'm definitely into fixing my roll center and tie rod angles so i can have a proper handling car!


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## blackflygti (Sep 19, 2001)

*Re: (nextproject)*

Mk4/Mk3VR6 update:
I sent an email to Dave @ PMW. He mentioned that they've completed a design for the Mk4 balljoint but have no plans to make them yet. They're still about a year away from producing them.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (nextproject)*

As a quick update:
Dave is in the process of finishing up his tie rod relocation bushings. They look really good. I should be hearing back from him this week on when he can ship them out. After I get them I just need to take my spindles up to a machine shop to have them drilled out to 5/8.


















_Quote, originally posted by *nextproject* »_thats funny i guess i didnt search well enough, as i just contacted whiteline regarding making a set of roll center adjusters for our cars! so these will fit any mk2? technically a 90 corrado is a mk2 and these will fit? i'm definitely into fixing my roll center and tie rod angles so i can have a proper handling car!

Yes Dave makes them for mk1's and mk2's. Send him an email. Last I talked to him he said he had 19mm extenders but not 17mm extenders in stock.


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## epjetta (Sep 19, 2006)

*Re: (VWn00b)*

who do I send the $ to? I need a set of those!


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (epjetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *epjetta* »_who do I send the $ to? I need a set of those!

David Stone @ Performance Machine Works
303-828-4546
[email protected]


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## kevtexmex (Nov 2, 2004)

excuse my ignorance but you lower the front of the car by a shorter spring, then you put a ball joint spacer in and wouldn't this just raise it back up? (not a bad thing) Why not just get non lowering higher rate than stock springs and not have to mess with the ball joints? Just seems like going around your elbow to get to your thumb.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (kevtexmex)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevtexmex* »_excuse my ignorance but you lower the front of the car by a shorter spring, then you put a ball joint spacer in and wouldn't this just raise it back up? (not a bad thing) Why not just get non lowering higher rate than stock springs and not have to mess with the ball joints? Just seems like going around your elbow to get to your thumb.









by adding the ball joint extender, it pushes the lower control arm down. It has nothing to do with the height of the car, nor does it effect the height of the car.
the point of the extenders is the same point that H2Sport made drop spindles for the mk4; it is to correct control arm and tie rod geometry when the car is lowered ~2 inches. with these extenders, coupled with the new tie rod bushings Dave is making, it does the exact same thing for a mk3, mk2, or mk1.


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## kevtexmex (Nov 2, 2004)

I'm an idiot, the shorter lowering spring lowers the distance between the top of the knuckle and body of the car. These go under the knuckle to the control arm. If I thought about it for a second I'd have realized that. These do now look promising. Looking forward to results.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (kevtexmex)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevtexmex* »_I'm an idiot, the shorter lowering spring lowers the distance between the top of the knuckle and body of the car. These go under the knuckle to the control arm. If I thought about it for a second I'd have realized that. These do now look promising. Looking forward to results.

lol its all good http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## kevtexmex (Nov 2, 2004)

I think I'd rather go with the h2sport control arms which correct both the location of the control arm and the tie rods keeping them in unison. How have people been addressing this issue? Pics are worth a thousand words.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

H2Sport control arms for the mk4 don't do any of what you said. They just replace the bushings when spherical units.
If you want suspension geometry correction on the mk4 you need to buy their drop spindles.


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## kevtexmex (Nov 2, 2004)

I meant to say spindles but have had control arms on my mind as I have just replaced them on both cars. The drop spindles look like a nice piece, they level out the control arm even more so than the tt knuckles.


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## zak (Aug 27, 2004)

*Re: (nextproject)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nextproject* »_thats funny i guess i didnt search well enough, as i just contacted whiteline regarding making a set of roll center adjusters for our cars! so these will fit any mk2? technically a 90 corrado is a mk2 and these will fit? i'm definitely into fixing my roll center and tie rod angles so i can have a proper handling car!
The Corrado uses an A2 front (MkII Golf/Jetta). But the rear is B3 (Passat chassis). 
So yes, the ball joint extenders should work fine, but a Corrado is not a MkII. MkII implies that it is the second generation of a model, and there was only one Corrado style.
A Scirocco is either a MkI or MkII, but all were based on the A1 chassis, which is the chassis for MkI Golf/Jettas. MkII Golf/Jettas are based on the A2 chassis.


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## nextproject (Nov 18, 2007)

i guess i am getting a2 confused with mk2. sorry for my ignorance, i cant wait to order a set of those.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

Got an email from Dave saying he shipped the tie rod relocation bushings. Hopefully I should get them this week.
I'll post up pics when I get them.


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## briang (Mar 10, 1999)

*Re: (zak)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zak* »_The Corrado uses an A2 front (MkII Golf/Jetta). * But the rear is B3 * (Passat chassis). 


Not trying to bust zak's balls here:








IIRC, the Corrado uses the MK II A-chassis floor pan and chassis both front and rear. The VR6 SLC Corrado uses the "plus" front suspension with a wider track (just like the MK III A-chassis VR6 cars that followed).
The B3/B4 Passats used a MK II/MK III A-chassis front suspension but a different rear suspension (FWD Typ89 Audi rear suspension maybe?







).


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## Banned wagon (Mar 3, 2004)

*Re: (VWn00b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWn00b* »_Got an email from Dave saying he shipped the tie rod relocation bushings. Hopefully I should get them this week.
I'll post up pics when I get them.

So how is this part any different than this one?
https://www2.cip1.com/ProductD...13-11








Edit: these are the wrong size and wont work on water cooled vw's


_Modified by Banned wagon at 9:10 PM 5-1-2008_


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (Banned wagon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Banned wagon* »_So how is this part any different than this one?

I don't know, as I have never seen those before.
I do know that Dave's tie rod bushings are machined, heat treated, and tested to ensure there will not be any kind of failure over the life of the bushing. They also come with 2 Grade 10.9 washers and new lock nuts for the tie rod. They are also fitted for watercooled tie rods (I only assume aircooled ends are different).
Not sure I could trust a shiny metal bushing sold for $20 bucks to hold my tie rod properly. I've talked to Dave @ PMW personally several times about both extenders and bushings. The quality is there.


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## zak (Aug 27, 2004)

*Re: (briang)*


_Quote, originally posted by *briang* »_
Not trying to bust zak's balls here:








IIRC, the Corrado uses the MK II A-chassis floor pan and chassis both front and rear. The VR6 SLC Corrado uses the "plus" front suspension with a wider track (just like the MK III A-chassis VR6 cars that followed).
The B3/B4 Passats used a MK II/MK III A-chassis front suspension but a different rear suspension (FWD Typ89 Audi rear suspension maybe?







).









Not to bust balls back







but from Wikipedia:

The Corrado used Volkswagen's B3 platform in the rear of the car, while using the A2 platform technology up front, which it shared with the then-current Golf and Jetta. It shared many mechanical parts with other Volkswagen A platform cars as well. 
Of course this source may be wrong.....


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## blackflygti (Sep 19, 2001)

*Re: (zak)*

Wiki is wrong. Corrado suspension components (front & rear) are completely interchangeable with Mk2/Mk3 Golf/Jetta. The Corrado is really just a fancy looking Golf.


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (blackflygti)*

damn totally missed this thread!
i have a set of these on the way, an bought the tie rod kit from jerod at scch-heads.com
im excited


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (VWralley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWralley* »_damn totally missed this thread!
i have a set of these on the way, an bought the tie rod kit from jerod at scch-heads.com
im excited









you have any pictures of the kit you bought from Jarod? I wasn't aware that he made them. I know hes mainly a mk1/mk2 guy though too.


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (VWn00b)*

sure do!


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

wow those look really good. what are they going on?


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (VWn00b)*

my 77 rabbit 16v hillclimb/autox car
















an my buddys road race wabbit


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## briang (Mar 10, 1999)

*Re: (zak)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zak* »_
Not to bust balls back








but from Wikipedia:
<snip>
Of course this source may be wrong.....

I'd say the source is wrong. A corrado can use any MK II/MK III A-Chassis suspension kits, as long as the front spring pig-tail is matched the the correct upper spring perch (i.e. same coilover kit for MK II/MK III Golf/Jetta and the Corrado). This is not so at the rear but is so at the front of a B3/B4 Chassis Passat.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## cool white98 (Apr 23, 2005)

*Re: (epjetta)*

these look like they could be a good option!


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (cool white98)*

Got my tie rod bushings in yesterday. They look great. Can't wait to get them installed. Need to get new tie rod ends from work this week and then I can finally take the spindles to a machine shop and have them installed.


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## dubass (Mar 26, 2003)

*Re: (VWn00b)*

wow i totally slept on this thread. 
nice one


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## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: (VWralley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWralley* »_sure do!

















Hey Ralley thanks for posting in this thread I will have the safety washers out for you by next week with the extra bolts we talked about.
If you guys get a chance click the link in my sig and take a look @ my product page I have worked with several pro race teams and have a goos undertanding of what makes our cars handle better.

Here are some pics of my geration II drop pins with spherical ball joint replacment plates for the factory a arms.
~Jarod


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (X K R O M X)*

Jarod those drop pins look amazing.
Unfortunately I wasn't ready yet to send a set of spindles out to you to have pins welded in. I think these PMW extenders are a good medium between your welded spherical units and the stock ball joints. Easily removable if needed as well.
Tie rods look amazing as always. Good to see some more pictures of your work. I need to pull my spindles out this coming week so I can have the new bushings I got from PMW installed.
I do want to get some control arms out to you for some spherical bushings. Hopefully I can do that in the next coming weeks.


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## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: (VWn00b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWn00b* »_Jarod those drop pins look amazing.
Unfortunately I wasn't ready yet to send a set of spindles out to you to have pins welded in. I think these PMW extenders are a good medium between your welded spherical units and the stock ball joints. Easily removable if needed as well.
Tie rods look amazing as always. Good to see some more pictures of your work. I need to pull my spindles out this coming week so I can have the new bushings I got from PMW installed.
I do want to get some control arms out to you for some spherical bushings. Hopefully I can do that in the next coming weeks.

Thanks for the compliment ! I am glad you like the stuff I make some pretty hardcore stuff and i don't expect everyone to have a need for it so don't sweat it.
~Jarod


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (X K R O M X)*

Update:
Got new tie rod ends the other day, and got the call from my dads friends race shop that I can bring the spindles over in the morning. So decided to take everything apart and get ready for the morning.
















While working on the car, UPS decided to give me a visit.
















See ya'll on the next update.


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## zak (Aug 27, 2004)

*Re: (X K R O M X)*


_Quote, originally posted by *X K R O M X* »_.
~Jarod










Stupid question maybe, but could you thread the top end of that ball joint and use it in an A4? Sure some other dimensions have to change too....


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## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: (zak)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zak* »_
Stupid question maybe, but could you thread the top end of that ball joint and use it in an A4? Sure some other dimensions have to change too....

I am not understanding what you are asking here,I am currently doing a complete bearing kit for my friends A4 Race car and the suspension is totally different,Could you elaborate for me please.
~Jarod.


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## zak (Aug 27, 2004)

*Re: (X K R O M X)*

Sorry--I meant the A4 Chassis (MkIV GTi/Jetta).


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## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: (zak)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zak* »_Sorry--I meant the A4 Chassis (MkIV GTi/Jetta).

Ahhh I see, Unfortunately because of the factory configuration of the ball joint and the upright this will not work as the ball joint sits in a 20* angle in relation to the a arm,H-sport makes some very nice uprights that incorporate a lowered pick up point for the ball joint on those car's you should look into getting them.However I could make something but ot would be a one off and cost you some Bread,preferably toasted..with some garlic salt.
~Jarod.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (X K R O M X)*

Update:
Didn't get a chance to take pictures as I had to get to work 15 minutes after I finished today.







I'll have pictures later tonight or Sunday.
Got the spindles over to my friends shop. I need to email Dave, but the bushings are fitted for 3/4" holes, not 5/8". One bushing was 1/1000 smaller and the other was 3/1000 smaller. I had Rick (owner) weld the bushings in place. Everything looks good.
Got home and installed my new balljoints with extenders, reinstalled the brakes, new tie-rods, etc. Also installed my GC camber plates too. They dropped the car about another 1/2 to 3/4 inches.
Steering feels good. No binding or knocking. I need to mess with my camber on the plates. Its really negative right now. Once I readjust my height and camber to a reasonable amount I can go get an alignment. 


_Quote, originally posted by *X K R O M X* »_
Ahhh I see, Unfortunately because of the factory configuration of the ball joint and the upright this will not work as the ball joint sits in a 20* angle in relation to the a arm,H-sport makes some very nice uprights that incorporate a lowered pick up point for the ball joint on those car's you should look into getting them.However I could make something but ot would be a one off and cost you some Bread,preferably toasted..with some garlic salt.
~Jarod.

Garlic butter is better http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

Quick pictures I took today. I have to work on the car again tomorrow to make some major adjustments to the coilovers and camber plates. The first picture shows how low its sitting in the front right now. The GC Camber plates really take alot out compared to the stock strut mounts. The controls are sitting without any adjustment to the coilovers. For as low as I am, the control arm angle is much better than the typical shots you see around the forums of super low cars. This will obviously not be the final ride height. Its probably going to sit about 1-1.5 inches higher once I get finished tomorrow.
My plans for tomorrow:
Take apart the coils and camber plates to retorque and hopefully find out this small metallic noise I have.
Adjust coils so the control arms are level.
Adjust the rear coils with a slight rake to the front.
Set my camber at about -2 degrees
Eyeball the toe so I can have a decent ride until I can get it aligned in the next week.
In the second picture you can see the flipped tierod end, and were he welded a little bit. I'll try to get some pictures tomorrow of the extenders installed as well, and some better pictures of the tierod install.


























_Modified by VWn00b at 3:29 PM 5-17-2008_


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (VWn00b)*

Just another update:
Did my first HPDE with the new setup. Also, it was my first time with r-compound tires, which was very interesting.
Went to Motorsports Ranch in Cresson, Tx with Apex and Metro VW (Hagstead racing family) all day June 1st for track time.
First session Apex had the novice and intermediate (I was novice because I have never driven with Apex before) groups do a slalom and braking session.
The second session out I was able to drive and get a feel for the car. I had way too much oversteer. It was still driveable, but it was very easy to rotate the rear end.
Third session I made some adjustments to the car. Put the RSB to full soft (reason for oversteer). This helped alot to reduce my oversteer, but the car still felt like there was too much weight transfer to the front when braking hard and on deceleration. I was able to drive the car much easier than the second session however.
Fourth session I made one more adjustment after lunch. I lowered the rear 5 threads and this helped alot. There wasn't nearly as much front weight transfer during braking, and in certain turns the car actually started to push.
Fifth session was short for me, as I ran out of gas. I was tired though, so I was ready to call it quits.
The last 2 sessions the instructor let me go solo, and he told me he hadn't driven with someone that was as smooth or had that much control over the car in awhile. I was happy.








As far as the PMW parts are concerned, no adverse clunks or noises heard throughout the entire day. Everything worked perfectly and stayed together. The picture below shows how low the car still is, yet the control arms are still level. With the added GC camber plates, I still have alot of shock movement available as well. Camber was around -2.5° and toe was as close to zero as possible. Temps were 33/34 cold and stayed at 40°F all day. I didn't have a temp gauge handy do I don't know whether or not my camber helped or hurt, but the car felt good overall.


















_Modified by VWn00b at 2:16 PM 6-23-2008_


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## HilF (Jan 10, 2004)

*Re: (VWn00b)*

awesome, keep updating http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (white_r!ce)*

Subscribed to this, hope there is some light at the end of the tunnel for us Mk3 VR6 people!
What kind of LCA angle do you have now?


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (Mr Black)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr Black* »_Subscribed to this, hope there is some light at the end of the tunnel for us Mk3 VR6 people!
What kind of LCA angle do you have now?

Mk3 VR shouldn't be that much different. My suggestion would be to get in contact with Dave @ PMW and see if he has any information. Might take him a day or 2 to respond. Hes the only one there I think.
LCA is basically level, maybe angled up a few degrees, but not much.


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (blackflygti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blackflygti* »_Mk4/Mk3VR6 update:
I sent an email to Dave @ PMW. He mentioned that they've completed a design for the Mk4 balljoint but have no plans to make them yet. They're still about a year away from producing them.

Aw crap I just sent a similar email through his website.... guess I'm going to get the same answer. Maybe if enough people bug him he will step up the pace?
It's funny that the H2Sport spindles take care of the Mk4 guys, and the PMW pieces and also XKROMX's pieces cater to the Mk1/Mk2 guys, but the Mk3 platform (or maybe just the VR6 models) are the odd man out!


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## blackflygti (Sep 19, 2001)

*Re: (Mr Black)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr Black* »_Maybe if enough people bug him he will step up the pace?

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Sounds like a plan


_Quote »_the Mk3 platform (or maybe just the VR6 models) are the odd man out!

It's just the Mk3 VR6 that's left out. By the same token, the Mk4 2.0L/TDI (same balljoint as the Mk3 VR6) can't use the H2Sport spindles without upgrading to 1.8t/VR6 brakes. So in that sense, the mk4 2.0L/TDI is left out as well until someone makes a balljoint.


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## Mr Black (Jan 20, 2002)

*Re: (blackflygti)*

Fingers crossed http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Hey n00B.... looks like your rear ride height is noticeably higher than the front. Any reason for that? Common knowledge seems to be to slam the rear as much as possible since it doesn't affect roll centre


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## X K R O M X (Jan 19, 2006)

*Re: (VWn00b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWn00b* »_
Mk3 VR shouldn't be that much different. My suggestion would be to get in contact with Dave @ PMW and see if he has any information. Might take him a day or 2 to respond. Hes the only one there I think.
LCA is basically level, maybe angled up a few degrees, but not much.

The Vr6 Is very different as the ball joint form the factory sits @ a 20* angle in relation to the upright,In order to effectively ,make a drop pin for that upright you would need to box in a whole new pick up point for the ball joint,However I do have a solution for you Vr6 guys but it requires some slight changes in the car,please feel free to e-mail or PM me and we could talk about it.
~Jarod.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (Mr Black)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Mr Black* »_Fingers crossed http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Hey n00B.... looks like your rear ride height is noticeably higher than the front. Any reason for that? Common knowledge seems to be to slam the rear as much as possible since it doesn't affect roll centre

The picture taken from the paddock was before I made all the adjustments.
The rear end was probably about 1/2" lower than that when I adjusted the threads. I also didn't want to go too low in the rear as I still have the factory proportioning valve, and didn't want to end up getting too much brake in the rear. I know it wouldn't have affected that much, but I didn't want to push it and risk throwing the rear end out again. I probably could have gotten a little lower in the last session and still have seen a change in handling.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (VWn00b)*

*Update*
I guess wheel bearings with 95,000 miles on them don't like alot of negative camber, because my drivers side makes noise like a dying cat. Its pretty horrid. I noticed it about a week ago, and it started small and almost no existent, but now, oh my.








Also, started developing a loud popping noise on the passenger side. Pretty sure its the tender spring making the noise, as I forgot to put it under the main spring, like i did the drivers side. Doh!
As far as PMW parts related news, nothing new yet. Extenders are holding strong, and the tierod bushings look good as well. I need to work on the car sometime this week to fix the spring issue as well as get the wheel bearing done. I'll see if I can get some better pictures of my setup then too.
After that I need an alignment bad. Surprised my 512's haven't gone bald yet. No idea what my toe settings have been the past 3 weeks.
Still want to get 2 more goodies for the car, suspension wise. Jarod's spherical LCA bearings and rear beam bearings too. After that I think I'll be set for awhile until I'm ready to order new suspension. Probably break down and order something decent from GC built to what I want, but we'll see.
As far as more track event updates, probably won't see one until September. Should be making it to Eagles Canyon, for a 2 day, 8 session event. Its a fast track with alot of elevation change, and I'll have some better brakes by then, so I'll be able to push the car a little more. I should also have a new set of r-compounds by then as well, either Hankooks Z211 or Kumhos 710s. Will be nice to get on some new tires.
Until next time http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by VWn00b at 9:26 PM 6-24-2008_


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (VWn00b)*

just got word from dave, my extenders are in the mail


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (VWralley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWralley* »_just got word from dave, my extenders are in the mail
















Nice. Do you already have the tierod situation sorted? Hope you like the extenders. I just checked mine and they are doing fine. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (VWn00b)*

got the bump steer kit from jerod about a month ago http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (VWralley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWralley* »_got the bump steer kit from jerod about a month ago http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Nice.
On side note, my wheel bearing problem doesn't seem to be fully fixed.
Old hub was in pretty bad shape, and the race didn't want to come off the hub. So, bought a new hub and got it all secured. Put everything back together, and the noise I was hearing before is gone, yet when I load the drivers side it makes a roaring noise. Not very loud, but noticeable. Also, I don't think my impact gun gets very good torque, because I can still tighten my lug bolts up to 90lbs after hitting them with the impact gun. Might be time for a new one. Not sure what the air pressure coming out of my tank is, but I guess either that or the gun isn't getting it done.
I'm going to have one of the techs zip down the axle nut tonight and see if its really too loose or I have another problem.


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (VWn00b)*

now just because i literally just had this problem, ill mention it








had a noise, had probably 5 people hear all agreed'd. ds wheel bearing. replaced it, no fix. new axle. no fix. other side axle, no fix. turned out to be the pass. side wheel bearing, but it seriously sounded without a doubt to be coming from the drivers side.
just a thought, may want to do both front bearings to make sure


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (VWralley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWralley* »_now just because i literally just had this problem, ill mention it








had a noise, had probably 5 people hear all agreed'd. ds wheel bearing. replaced it, no fix. new axle. no fix. other side axle, no fix. turned out to be the pass. side wheel bearing, but it seriously sounded without a doubt to be coming from the drivers side.
just a thought, may want to do both front bearings to make sure

Well thats what I'm worried about. VW dealership I work at had a new hub, but no new bearing (which surprised me). Went to Vatozone and picked up a new bearing.
Again, the noise isn't there anymore unless I load the drivers side, which now makes a roaring noise. Before, it was a rotating noise that was speed related. When I pulled the old hub off, it was obvious it was bad.
I really don't want to have to repeat the same process on the passenger side. The hubs aren't cheap, even with my discount. Only reason I bought from VW Parts/Vatozone was because if I didn't I wasn't driving for the next few days.
I might just order a new hub and bearing from GAP and do it anyway. I'm at work now, and I'll check tonight the axle nut torque and see how it goes after that.
Whats also kinda funny, is that you can't get a non-ABS hub at all. Its the same part number for both setups. You get a hub with ABS ring, and just take it off if you don't need it.


_Modified by VWn00b at 4:43 PM 6-25-2008_


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (VWn00b)*

yeah normally it makes noise on the bad side when you load it up, an thats EXACTLY how mine was. turned out the pass. side only made noise when id remove the load







oh well eventually found it an it was on a 82 rabbit so all that stuff needed replacing anyways


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (VWralley)*

we got em! they look gorgeous. getting a new set of spindles to modify an press in new hubs an bearings...ill post up once we get it all installed. may be a few weeks on my car, but we'll get em on the race car asap


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## VWralley (Mar 30, 2002)

*Re: (VWralley)*

my shocks are too long
















but these work awesome! huge difference in driving. even got out to an autox to test em out. loving them so far


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (VWralley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWralley* »_my shocks are too long
















but these work awesome! huge difference in driving. even got out to an autox to test em out. loving them so far









damn. I'm at work and can't see the pictures.
Glad you like them though. Dave is a good guy and hope he keeps making new things for VWs.
On a side note, I think I'm going to be doing another HPDE soon. Will have a new set of tires, roll bar and harness, and readjusted ride heights and better camber, so I'll be updating soon.
Edit: Tighten up those tierod lock nuts http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by VWn00b at 1:13 AM 8-14-2008_


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## pawa_k2001 (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (VWn00b)*

Sorry to bump the thread but, any word on lower ball joint extenders for MK4 VWs? 1.8t.
Tired to call PMW but no answer.


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## meb58 (Jun 22, 2009)

*Re: (Afazz)*

sorry - I thought I copied a post from above

Exactly!!! The tie rods must point to the instant center, that is the fulcrum. 
A horizontal LCA orientation allows for an equal or symetrical arc above and below horizontal. As the LCA moves up and down - away from horizontal it cause the tires to scrub laterally since trakc width is slightly narrower. If the LCAs are angled up fro example - too low - the trie in bound and the other in rebound posses different scrub and will also cause some nasty steering response - mostly on bumpy or undulating roads.
As an aside, fully correcting roll center and instant centers is nearly impossble - in my experience. But the ball joint extenders move things in the right direction...but too low is too low.


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## pawa_k2001 (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (pawa_k2001)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pawa_k2001* »_Sorry to bump the thread but, any word on lower ball joint extenders for MK4 VWs? 1.8t.
Tired to call PMW but no answer.


__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view


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## pawa_k2001 (Feb 3, 2003)

*Re: (pawa_k2001)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pawa_k2001* »_Sorry to bump the thread but, any word on lower ball joint extenders for MK4 VWs? 1.8t.
Tired to call PMW but no answer.


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## TrackDaze (Dec 5, 2003)

*Re: (pawa_k2001)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pawa_k2001* »_Sorry to bump the thread but, any word on lower ball joint extenders for MK4 VWs? 1.8t.
Tired to call PMW but no answer.

Why would you consider ball joint extenders when there are other options for MKIV (TT and H2Sport spindles)?
Are you looking to put these on a street car? If your looking for them for a track car, do the rules you run under allow them?


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (TrackDaze)*

These would allow for far greater geometry correction and greater gains while being considerably cheaper than the alternatives.


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

*Re: (rex_racer)*

How far do the H2Sport spindles lower the balljoint? The PMW style extenders will not work on the mk4 or the mk3 VR6 because the balljoint is a taper style instead of a clamp style and there would be no way to easily assemble it.


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## TrackDaze (Dec 5, 2003)

*Re: (Afazz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Afazz* »_How far do the H2Sport spindles lower the balljoint? The PMW style extenders will not work on the mk4 or the mk3 VR6 because the balljoint is a taper style instead of a clamp style and there would be no way to easily assemble it.

The H2Sport spindles drop the balljoint attachment point by two inches. (... which is more than the ball joint extenders do, I think. 1.5")
Personally, I would not put balljoint extenders on a street car (and I totally respect the quality of the PMW piece).


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

*Re: (TrackDaze)*

I agree, custom cast spindles are the best way to do it. The problem isn't necessarily the extenders themselves, it's the stock casting also. I run them on a rarely driven street car, but certainly wouldn't trust them for daily driving.


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: (Afazz)*

Rumor was that H2Sport was casting new Mk3 spindles, but that was a few years ago I think.
New spindles is the 100% best solution, but aside from converting to custom race hubs, the extenders and flipped rods are the only solution right now.
I'd love a custom race solution like this:










_Modified by VWn00b at 3:57 PM 1-25-2010_


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## Draxus (Jan 6, 2009)

Ohhh, any chance of getting some of these for my R32?


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## kyle VR6 farthing (Nov 2, 2005)

does anyone run these ball joint extenders on a daily driver? I know the h2sport spindles are the best option to correct the geometry after lowering a car. But these are a much more affordable fix.. i know you have to pay to play, but there has to be someone out there who runs these on a daily driver who has some input, positive or negative


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## VWn00b (Mar 4, 2005)

Wow, didn't expect to see this open.

The extenders from PMW are for off-road use only, and Dave says this on the website and in the instructions he sends with the parts.

However I'm still going strong with the extenders and flip kit. I drive this car everyday and have been since I first posted in this thread. Been to many trackdays as well as extreme Texas cold & heat.

Getting married soon and hopefully picking up a truck so I can finally turn the Jetta into the racecar I so badly want.


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## Draxus (Jan 6, 2009)

Can anyone answer me if there is a version that would work with the MK4 R32?


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## greyhare (Dec 24, 2003)

No, there is not a version for the Mk4.


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## ekwong (Jun 12, 2000)

Rise from the dead. Any new updates on potential MK3 VR6 solutions?


----------

