# Required Conditions for Roof Operation



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

In another post (New Eos or New A4?), Dave (swordfish1) mentioned that he enjoyed driving with the roof down on crisp winter mornings. All well and good, but I just want to bring to everyone's attention that the roof may not operate if the outside air temperature or the temperature of the hydraulic fluid in the hydraulic pump drops below 5°F (about -15°C). This is because at very low temperatures, the fluid in the hydraulic pump may become too thick to circulate freely.
I have attached an Adobe Acrobat PDF document that explains all of the conditions that must be fulfilled in order for the roof to complete an opening or closing cycle. I am sure that the information about the minimum temperature requirement is published in the owner manual, however, this list provides a more comprehensive description of all the prerequisites for roof operation, and it might be useful for determining why the roof won't operate if you are trying to get it to operate.
Michael


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## ialonso (Aug 26, 2006)

PanEuropean, this is great info !! You appear to have some good sources of information, as well as a good research method ! Thanks for sharing all this stuff...
a bit off topic, I wonder if you could share a recently developed window aligning process that was being sent to some dealerships regarding the "window buting the seal" issue.
Thanks again for sharing all this info.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (ialonso)*

Hi Israel:
I have not heard of any new information that has been promulgated about the window issue, but I will try and contact some of our 'forum friends' at VW and see if anything new and useful has come out.
I have been focusing my attention on the Phaeton for the last few days - I was at the assembly plant in Dresden yesterday for meetings with the engineers there. We (the Phaeton forum gang) have a good relationship with the factory, and they do a great job of supporting us when we have questions, concerns, stuff like that. Hopefully we can develop the same relationship between all of us in the Eos forum and the Eos production facility in Portugal. But - I have not had a chance to get to that production facility yet.
Michael


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## Grinder (Feb 6, 2004)

Thank you for the good information Michael. I was uncertain about the requirement for the luggage cover to be latched. I am hppy to see that there is a sensor for this. 
So people might not wat to leave the top down overnight. If it is really cold the next morning it might not go up again, though I am having a hard tim imagining this scenario. Possibly in a cold garage if someone has not used it for some time??
Paul


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Grinder)*

Well, -5°F (-15°C) is pretty friggin' cold, and my guess is that not too many people would ever leave the roof of a parked Eos down during those temperature conditions - if for no reason other than to avoid frost forming on the seats, steering wheel, dashboard, etc.
About the only circumstance I can think of where someone might get 'trapped' is if they are in an area that is subject to quite significant temperature changes within a short period of time (e.g. Southern Alberta, where you sometimes get katabatic winds that can result in a huge temperature drop), and the person left the roof down when it was reasonably warm (e.g. +10°C), then the cold katabatic wind comes through and the temperature drops to -20°C in a three or four hour period. This is not uncommon in mountain ski areas.
I guess the point I was trying to make was 'RTFM', because there is a lot of information in there that owners need to know. I agree that there is a lot of dross in there too (American legal warnings), but it only takes a few hours to sit down, read the book cover to cover, and highlight the critical information with a highlighting pen as you go through.
Michael


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## cb391 (Mar 12, 2006)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Michael, 
Just wanted to confirm that the owner's manual does agree that the air temp must be +5F/-15C and car must be stopped before the top goes down. They also don't want the car moving unless the top is fully up or fully down. They seem to want everyone to know that the top mechanism is fragile....
Andy


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (cb391)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cb391* »_They seem to want everyone to know that the top mechanism is fragile...

Hi Andy:
I don't think the issue is that the roof itself is 'fragile' - I think the issue is that the roof is a pretty big object, and they don't want to subject it to wind loads. If they had to design the roof to withstand the aerodynamic loads that could be imposed if it was operated while the vehicle was in motion, then they would have had to cope with a considerable increase in weight, thickness, etc. of the components.
I'm not familiar with the construction of an Eos roof, but I am really familiar with the construction of landing gear doors on aircraft. They are designed and built to withstand operation in very high wind conditions (meaning, when the aircraft is flying). If Boeing didn't have to worry about wind loading when they designed the landing gear doors, then the landing gear doors could be made as light and as elegant as an Eos roof.








As for the cold temperature limitation on roof operation - again, that is a tradeoff to keep the mechanism lightweight, simple, and inexpensive. Sure, VW could have designed it to work at -40° temperatures... but they would have had to increase the diameter of all the tubing in the system, and significantly increase the operating pressures - same as an aircraft. This would have boosted weight and increased cost. I think the manufacturer made an intelligent, carefully considered decision when they set -5°C as the design criteria for the low end of the operating temperature range.
Michael


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## ialonso (Aug 26, 2006)

*My opinion on other cosiderations*

On a similar topic, I remember a video from YouTube with the interview to two engineers from VW the afternoon before the launch in some Car Show where the Eos was to be introduced, and they spoke of opening and closing the roof while driving, and the reaction of other drivers around them, and how it was a huge distraction to the driver of the car, and to other drivers around.
I would add to PanEuropean's, comment, that even though it's clear the top could be raised and lowered on a perfectly flat and smooth road, with speed of 10mph (the roof wouldn't distinguish this from a 10mph head wind when the car was stopped,except for the speed limiter.) Perhaps a large pothole being hit while the roof was moving, say, at 15mph, would not be the nicest thing to do to this roof.
I personally wouldn;t mind a 5 mph speed limit,but I also understand it's a risk mitigation measure. How many of you have tried to lower the top with the trunk cover open, and then warned by the system ? I have done it at least 3 times. The same I could operate my top while moving, and encounter a big pothole or seed bump, that makes one of the motors jump a tooth or something, and I'm SOL....
So, I think the issue is that for a production design of this type is that you must be prepared to state that it works 100% of the time, for everyone, when all possible modes of operation are considered. (30mph speed + 40mph head wind = 70mph head wind...)
What do you think ? 
If you disagree, the module is now available, for a meager $500...


_Modified by ialonso at 6:16 AM 11-29-2006_


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## jnhashmi (Nov 26, 2006)

*CSC ROOF stops/fails halfway through retracting process*

I looked in the table of contents and through most of the pages of posts and didn't see a post about this problem with the CSC roof so I am starting a thread here. If I missed a post please let me know!
THE PROBLEM: CSC ROOF stops/fails halfway through retracting process: Starting with the roof closed, I pushed down the lever to start the roof retracting. When the process gets to the point when the sides of the roof should detach from the windshield area, it just stops, and makes a low groaning noise (the motors are still going), as if it is trying to do something but can't. At this point I noticed that the roof is not properly "docked" into the windshield, and that maybe the problem started the last time I closed the roof, and it failed to close properly?
In the owners manual it says to look on the dashboard if there is a problem with the roof and it will say what the problems is, or give some kind of warning, but there was no indication on the dashboard of there being any problem with the roof. It just keeps the "roof closing/opening icon" lit as if nothing is wrong. So that is no help.
I took it to the dealer and they said that they are hoping that they can fix it by resetting the computer. I am awaiting the result.
I bought the car on Saturday, and it was back at the dealer with this problem on Monday. Needless to say I am very disappointed.


_Modified by jnhashmi at 9:30 PM 12-5-2006_


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## darien (Oct 28, 2006)

*Re: CSC ROOF stops/fails halfway through retracting process (jnhashmi)*

Out of curiosity, did you have any issue with the roof before when you test-drove it at the dealership? I've not heard anyone else had this problem. I opened and closed my roof DAILY and never had any problem. 
And when you opened and closed the roof, was your engine on? You might want to try to turn on the ignition/engine first before doing that. HTH.


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## jnhashmi (Nov 26, 2006)

*Re: CSC ROOF stops/fails halfway through retracting process (darien)*

Hi Darien. I didn't have that problem when I test drove it, it opened just fine at that time. And I always make sure the ignition is on whenever I open or close it.


_Modified by jnhashmi at 2:06 PM 12-5-2006_


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## darien (Oct 28, 2006)

*Re: CSC ROOF stops/fails halfway through retracting process (jnhashmi)*

I am sorry to hear about that issue. I hope it will get resolved soon.


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## Turbocrazy (Nov 14, 2002)

*Re: CSC ROOF stops/fails halfway through retracting process (darien)*

Hi Jason,
This happened to me one time. I was coming home from work at night and decided to pull over to put the top down. I went into a residential area and pull over next to the curb. The top got to the point where the side rails should disconnect from the windshield header but they didn't. Same symptoms like you; little groaning noise and nothing specific on the display. The right side of the car was on the smooth concrete right next to the curb, whereas my left tires were on the asphalt. I reversed the roof back to the closed position, backed up a bit so that all 4 tires were on the same level surface, and then the roof went down fine. I'm not sure if the way I was parked had anything to do with it. It wasn't as if one wheel were going up a driveway embankment. But it hasn't even happened again. On a typical day, I probably put the car through at least 3 full cycles (opening and closing). Since it never happened again, I wasn't that worried.
To put things in perspective, my friend bought his C70 convertible a couple months before me and has already had it to the dealer for the roof failing 3 separate times. Each time, the top was already lowered and wouldn't go back up! And one of these times was during a road trip from L.A. to San Fran. He said that each failure was due to separate parts needing replacement (console switch, sensor, etc.) 
I hope everything goes well with your Eos.
Shaun


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## jnhashmi (Nov 26, 2006)

*Re: CSC ROOF stops/fails halfway through retracting process (Turbocrazy)*

Shaun - Thanks. It's good to know I'm not the only one. You know, when I put the top up the night before, the car was pointing slightly uphill. When I tried to lower it the next morning, it was on level ground (I had moved it to level ground on purpose before trying it, even before I knew it wasn't working), but maybe the "damage" was done from the slight uphill closing the night before. However, I don't consider this a failure on my part, as there is nothing at all in the owner's manual about needing to be on level ground, as I was specifically looking out for that in the manual as I live in a hilly area. I think it is reasonable to expect the roof to work adequately on slight uphill or downhill grades, or even slight side-to-side situations like yours. At the very least these situtations should not cause a complete failure, but should cause a warning light to go on first before damamge is done, or work again once on level ground, as yours did.


_Modified by jnhashmi at 4:00 PM 12-5-2006_


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## Malone32 (Sep 5, 2006)

*Re: CSC ROOF stops/fails halfway through retracting process (jnhashmi)*

Yes,
I had this problem happen to me four different times. I took it to the dealer and they ended up tightening the wire that pulls the roof back. I have had the car back for about a week with no problems. But it did take me 3 weeks to get my car back, but I also had a leak on my A-Piliar.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: CSC ROOF stops/fails halfway through retracting process (jnhashmi)*

Hi Jason:
Sorry to hear your roof went on strike, so to speak, halfway through the operating cycle.
About a week or so ago, I made a post entitled Required Conditions for Roof Operation. Attached to the first post of that thread, in PDF format, is a technical description of the conditions that must be present in order for the roof to open or close. Perhaps take a look at it - you might see something there that gives you an 'ah-ha' moment, and explains why the roof didn't complete its cycle. It would be a nice outcome if the car doesn't need to go in for service to resolve the grief.
Good luck...
Michael


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## jnhashmi (Nov 26, 2006)

*Re: CSC ROOF stops/fails halfway through retracting process (PanEuropean)*

Thanks Michael. I downloaded the PDF and I will check it out.
I am happy to report that I got my car back this evening and everything seems to be working fine. (I was afraid it would take weeks, like for user Malone 32 above.)
It was explained to me by the technician that the problem was apparently that the software needed to be reset. He said that if the roof is not allowed to complete its cycle that it may get confused, and that it is important to not interrupt it going up or down. He said there is a "sweet" spot, and that if it is interrupted at this spot, it really can mess it up. He wasn't sure exactly where that spot is. I remember reading in the manual not to interrupt the process, and had been very careful with it, so I am not sure how it got confused, but it seems to be fixed at this point regardless.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: CSC ROOF stops/fails halfway through retracting process (jnhashmi)*

Hi Jason:
Great to hear there was a happy ending!
Michael


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## swordfish1 (Jul 22, 2006)

*Re: CSC ROOF stops/fails halfway through retracting process (Malone32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Malone32* »_Yes,
I had this problem happen to me four different times. I took it to the dealer and they ended up tightening the wire that pulls the roof back. I have had the car back for about a week with no problems. But it did take me 3 weeks to get my car back, but I also had a leak on my A-Piliar. 

Exactly the same happened the day I picked mine up...outside the showroom as everyone was watching due to it being the first one sold in the area!!
It also was a wire that needed tightening. It took them about half an hour to find and rectify the fault and it has worked perfectly since. Also the fact that they tried it in the workshop numerous times after rectifying it, meant that when it came back outside, it once more would not work. This was only due to there being a safeguard that only allows the top to go up/down within a certain amount of time.
The roof does worry me tho...once the warranty is up


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: CSC ROOF stops/fails halfway through retracting process (swordfish1)*

I think that as cars get more complex, we as owners might just have to get more creative about how we approach electrical or electronic snags.
I spent all day at my VW dealer today, fixing a door handle problem on my Phaeton. I'll spare you the details, but it was a very complex electrical snag that involved several systems. I finally got it fixed and everything now works perfectly. However...
...on the drive home, the sound system didn't work. I was kind of frazzed by this, wondering if I had pinched a wire somewhere, etc., etc. After about 20 minutes of driving, the thought occurred to me that perhaps I should try pressing the RESET button on the central control head. So, I pressed it - and guess what, everything worked perfectly from that point on.
My VW has over 60 different controllers (computers) that are connected to each other by 4 different databuses, including a fiber optic databus. There's a network hub (a gateway) in there to pass information between the busses. An Eos is not far behind - it probably has fewer controllers, but it has a more sophisticated CAN (Controller Area Network) system, and far more powerful and more complex controllers.
We never ever hear people saying "Gee, the damn car didn't start this morning" or "Hmmm, the car backfired today..." - I guess that is the benefit of all these electronic advances. Putting up with the occasional "Why the heck did it do (or not do) that?" problem might be the price we pay for all the fancy systems.
30 years ago, the most common last words heard on aircraft voice recorders just before the accident were "Oh S***!" Today, the most common last words heard are "I wonder what it's doing now?" Seriously - my day job is aviation safety management.
Michael


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## Instynct (Sep 7, 2006)

*Re: CSC ROOF stops/fails halfway through retracting process (jnhashmi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jnhashmi* »_TIt was explained to me by the technician that the problem was apparently that the software needed to be reset. He said that if the roof is not allowed to complete its cycle that it may get confused, and that it is important to not interrupt it going up or down. He said there is a "sweet" spot, and that if it is interrupted at this spot, it really can mess it up. He wasn't sure exactly where that spot is. I remember reading in the manual not to interrupt the process, and had been very careful with it, so I am not sure how it got confused, but it seems to be fixed at this point regardless. 

I've not had any trouble with my roof. But reading this, and knowing how much I hate to HOLD that little handle...
I wish they had made the roof an on off type type thing. Just tap it once and it goes all the way down. Pull it once it goes all the way up. A win win situation, no more holding the handle, and no more danger of hitting the (not so) "sweet spot."
I know there are electrical mods you can get to do this. But it seems like a relatively inexpensive something that could be done in future factory versions as an improvement to the car.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: CSC ROOF stops/fails halfway through retracting process (Instynct)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Instynct* »_I wish they had made the roof an on off type type thing. Just tap it once and it goes all the way down. Pull it once it goes all the way up...

I agree with you, it certainly would be nice to have a 'one touch' roof. I think, though, that there were some personal safety considerations that ruled out permitting one touch operation.
With a one-touch power window (express up or express down), the window motor can be calibrated to stop and reverse direction before anyone gets injured, if by some chance they happen to have an arm or other body part sticking out of the window when it is closing. In the case of the roof, because of the 'scissors action' of many of the mechanical components, VW can't provide the same pinch protection sensitivity... so, they had no choice but to make it a 'hold button in place to carry out action' type of thing.
We know it's not simply a lawyer deal, because the European roofs work the same way. There are a lot of features that get disabled on USA cars because of legal concerns in the USA, but automatic roof operation was not one of them.
Michael


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## muggo11 (Oct 2, 2006)

I have had the roof "stall" while lowering it 4 or 5 times now. I have had the car for six months now and have the roof up and down every day 2 or 3 times so while the percentage is low, it scares me every time cuz I think it will get stuck halfway down. But it doesn't. It goes back up and once I put it back up and try again, it has always worked the second time.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (muggo11)*

Mention this to your service advisor next time you have the car in for regular scheduled service. The car will record a fault code if problems are encountered with a system, it should be pretty easy for the technician to look at the fault code record and find out why the roof is stopping. It might be something a simple as a bit of crud on a sensor, or a sensor that needs a small adjustment to bring it closer to (or farther away from) a moving component.
The most likely suspect would be the sensors that detect the position of the movable baggage protection barrier in the middle of the trunk - perhaps have a look at that barrier yourself, and make sure there is no dirt or other items present that might prevent the car from confirming that the barrier is in the exact correct (fully down) position when you operate the roof.
Michael


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## fdf123 (Mar 30, 2007)

*Re: CSC ROOF stops/fails halfway through retracting process (jnhashmi)*

Do you know if the computer needs to be reset in the dealer every time the roof fails? Mine has just failed for the 2d time (been to the dealer once, the 1st time, and have to wait a few days for them to take me again for the new prob); I think i met all applicable conditions to use the roof--gets stuck 1/2 way thru opening.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: CSC ROOF stops/fails halfway through retracting process (fdf123)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fdf123* »_Do you know if the computer needs to be reset in the dealer every time the roof fails? 

Well, before addressing the question, we need to define exactly what qualifies as a 'failure'.
If the roof stops moving partway through its travel because one of the various sensors detects that one of the Required Conditions for Roof Operation is not being met, then no, it is not necessary to do anything other than correct the problem - in other words, make sure that all the required conditions are present. In other words, let's say that partway through roof operation, something bumps the movable cover inside the trunk such that it is no longer in the fully down (fully stowed) position - if that happens, all you have to do is resolve the problem (put the cover into the fully stowed position), and everything will then work just perfectly. It may be necessary to reverse the direction of travel, move the roof back to whatever position it was originally in (open or closed), and make another attempt at cycling it, but basically, if you eliminate the condition that caused the roof to stop moving, you have solved the problem. No further diagnostic work, technical intervention, etc. is needed, either by the owner or by a VW technician.
On the other hand, if the roof stops moving because some more serious problem is detected (I can't think of a good example - but, for sake of the discussion, let's say that a sensor is broken, or there is some kind of mechanical failure that requires a repair) - if that is the case, then it will probably not be possible to continue to operate the roof until the problem has been identified and fixed.
We have had relatively few reports of roof operational problems here in the forum since the Eos was introduced to the North American market, and in just about every case when a forum member has reported a problem, they never come back again a few days later with a follow-up post. This tends to suggest that the forum member has resolved the problem on their own, without requiring assistance from a VW dealer.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the key to happiness so far as the Eos convertible roof is concerned can be found in two places:
*1)* The owner manual, and;
*2)* The downloadable PDF that we have here on the forum at the top of this discussion thread (just scroll up to the first post).
This is one of these situations where "knowledge is power" - if you understand what circumstances can cause the roof to stop moving (for safety reasons) are, then there is a 99.9% probability that you can solve the problem yourself in 1 or 2 minutes just by making a visual inspection. I'll give you a perfect example: I was at my VW dealer about a month ago, and a brand new Eos was brought into the service area for PDI (pre-delivery inspection). I tried to open the roof, but nothing would move. I looked everywhere and could not find any obvious problem. Finally, I asked the Eos specialist - he came over to the car, lifted up the movable shelf in the trunk, found that the toolkit was preventing it from reaching the fully down position, and voila, the roof then worked perfectly. I felt like a fool...
Michael


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## fdf123 (Mar 30, 2007)

*Re: CSC ROOF stops/fails halfway through retracting process (PanEuropean)*

Right now there's absolutely nothing in my trunk, nothing near the back bumper, the trunk shelf is securely in the down position, and the mechanism fails 1/2 thru--tailgate assembly extends, one can hear the motor continue to whir, and after 15 seconds or so of no further movement of the roof assembly (i.e., the roof rails never disengage from the windshield pillars) the error message comes on. This makes me think that maybe "a wire needs to be tightened" like 2 others posted, or some other mechanical failure. The dealer will take the car in tomorrow and hopefully they can find the fault. They were unable to find a fault last time either, but after "taking everything apart" and lubing everything that could be lubed it started working again. The computer showed faults but nothing that could pinpoint where the problem arose.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: CSC ROOF stops/fails halfway through retracting process (fdf123)*

Please do come back and let us know what the VW dealer found and what they did to correct the problem - this information will probably be of great value to other forum members in the future.
Michael


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## fdf123 (Mar 30, 2007)

*Re: CSC ROOF stops/fails halfway through retracting process (PanEuropean)*

Duplicate post (cross-post) removed - click here to go to original post.
Michael


_Modified by PanEuropean at 8:56 PM 4-3-2007_


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## Lashed To The Mast (Jul 17, 2011)

I know this is an old thread, but I don't see the PDF download link about opening/closing the roof properly that was in the first post. Actually I don't see any of the pdf's that Michael (PanEuropean) and others have shared. Nor do I see his photos from old threads! Maybe a Mac thing? 

Anyways, can someone post that pdf about the roof? Is there a place on this site where all these pdfs exist for download? 

Love reading this forum! Thanks!!!


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## sapphirexae (Apr 25, 2010)

Maybe there is something I'm missing here but all of this information is in the owner's manual.


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## Lashed To The Mast (Jul 17, 2011)

It would help if my car _came_ with an owners manual!


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## DavidPaul (Nov 28, 2009)

Lashed To The Mast said:


> It would help if my car _came_ with an owners manual!


 This post is not meant to be sarcastic. It is true. 

Your owner's manual, and I really mean *your* onwer's manual can probably be found on ebay. 

There have been many owner's manuals stolen out of new cars and conveniently not been included in a trade in vehicle. 

Then after a very short time, the owner's manuals mysteriously show up on ebay. 

Most dealerships are no longer putting the manuals into the new cars until after the purchase. 

I know that money is tight for most of us but I implore you to not purchase a stolen manual off of ebay. Go to the dealer and pay the price. 

If a manual is not available for your year vehicle, get a newer one. There has been little change over the years.


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## sapphirexae (Apr 25, 2010)

:facepalm: 

I completely disagree with the above. Get it on eBay. Just because a car part / accessory is on eBay, it's stolen? I used to work at an auto dealer (years ago) and we never put the manuals in the cars to begin with. I collect cars as a hobby and have sold many, many, many cars over the years. Several times I have forgotten to give the new owner the manual set (as I often store them in my home, not the car) and found them years later. I have put them on eBay. I own them, not stolen and have them for sale. By the above poster's logic, no one should buy them from me. That is absurd. Heck, at the dealership, we would sell old manuals that got lost or misplaced over the years and found in the warehouse. So no one should buy those either? In addition, my local VW dealership sells manual sets that they have found over the years. Should no one buy those because the dealership 'stole' them out of trade-ins and such? Silly.


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## cb391 (Mar 12, 2006)

When you buy a New car, the manual set should be with the car. Cars not made here are checked at the port they enter by a third party company for scratches, dents, and contents before going on to the dealer. When the dealer gets the car they are supposed to double check that the car has everything it is supposed to have. A Used car may not because the owner didn't include it or someone at the dealer took it. We can't include collector cars because depending on how many owners the car went through, Manuals could get lost. Good collectors will make sure the manuals are with the car when they buy or sell the car. Keeping don't make them dishonest and certainly manuals on Ebay don't mean they are stolen. If you buy a car you should make sure everything is with the car before you sign for it. If not don't buy the car.


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## sapphirexae (Apr 25, 2010)

I totally agree.


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