# Sway Bar Advice Needed



## mdjenkins (Feb 16, 2010)

I'm not quite a year into my relationship with my 2001 225 coupe so all I've been doing is getting a few of her age kinks out (i.e. Standard mantience and the such). This winter her bones started creaking. After reading the FAQ this is probably the rear sway bar bushings.
On one hand I could just replace the bushings and call it good. On the other hand I am going to be in the suspension and without knowing what the sway bar is made of I might as well replace the bar seeing as this lady is approaching 6 digits in mileage and 9 years of age.
If I go for option 1, it should be simple to figure out what size of bar I have and buy bushings.
Option 2 the choices get more interseting. This is a daily driver for me, with weekend drives through winding canyon roads and the occasional road trip. The roads in Utah are mostly nice with exception of snow plows that like to occasionally mark up a patch here and there. I don't have any desire to pimp my suspension. After all, it's a TT, it's already a sexy ride. But I wouldnt mind going a bit stiffer and gaining a bit more performance when coming down the mountain.
After looking into aftermarket sway bars, Neuspeed are the ones to get. The problem is, what size for my front and what size for my rear? Is there anything else other than front and rear bars, linkage, bushings and maybe struts that I should hit while I'm in there?


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## Neb (Jan 25, 2005)

*Re: Sway Bar Advice Needed (mdjenkins)*

there's a good suspension thread just below yours that has maintenance stuff in it.
Personally I wouldn't upgrade the front bar, I would just do the rear. I can't really help you on the size though, but maybe a 21 or 22mm rear?


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## audiguy01 (Aug 12, 2008)

*Re: Sway Bar Advice Needed (mdjenkins)*

Leave the front alone and do a 19mm in the back would be my suggestion. This is what I did and it works great and reduces the understeer.


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## darrenbyrnes (Jan 4, 2005)

*Re: Sway Bar Advice Needed (audiguy01)*


_Quote, originally posted by *audiguy01* »_Leave the front alone and do a 19mm in the back would be my suggestion. This is what I did and it works great and reduces the understeer.

I did this a month or two ago. EASY install. Now I'm swapping out my front sway bar links...


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## cdougyfresh (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: Sway Bar Advice Needed (darrenbyrnes)*

You guys get the neuspeed one? any source for a cheaper one that neuspeed website? its like $230 there but IIRC you can get for around $175 in other places?
NM i found it








http://www.ttstuff.com/mm5/mer...1PSSB


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## mdjenkins (Feb 16, 2010)

*Re: Sway Bar Advice Needed (darrenbyrnes)*


_Quote »_I did this a month or two ago. EASY install. Now I'm swapping out my front sway bar links...

I must say that I'm a little relieved to hear people saying to leave the front sway alone. From what I was reading in Bentley's that one seems to be a full weekend and case of beer instead of a Saturday afternoon and a six-pack. May I ask your reasons for dipping into that one? Did wear on the front catch up? Did you feel the front wasn't properly compensating now? Did you just like the way the rear was handling now and decided you wanted that up front too?


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

I have Front and Rear H&R ...the minute i drove the car it was an immediate difference, really made it crisp. i will never go back the stock, it really made it a new car. 
consider adjustable ones. it gives you the ability to change the dynamic of the car's handling and also the harshness of the ride. 
for a lil more $$ you can get hollow bars, for those who want to scimp on the weight in any way psble.

http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-...5475/ 


_Modified by DurTTy at 10:21 PM 2-19-2010_


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## darrenbyrnes (Jan 4, 2005)

*Re: Sway Bar Advice Needed (cdougyfresh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cdougyfresh* »_You guys get the neuspeed one? any source for a cheaper one that neuspeed website? its like $230 there but IIRC you can get for around $175 in other places?
NM i found it








http://www.ttstuff.com/mm5/mer...1PSSB

That's where I got mine.
I have some new front end links on order as my front end is sort of "clunking" a bit on the crappy roads this winter.


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## Neb (Jan 25, 2005)

*Re: Sway Bar Advice Needed (darrenbyrnes)*


_Quote, originally posted by *darrenbyrnes* »_
That's where I got mine.
I have some new front end links on order as my front end is sort of "clunking" a bit on the crappy roads this winter.

Mines doing the same. Although I swapped them out about a year ago..


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## M this 1! (May 17, 2000)

*Re: Sway Bar Advice Needed (Neb)*

clunking is usually strut bearing/rubber. 
The front and rear debate!!
stock 225= 15mm rear/20mm front
Adding the 19mm Neuspeed does wonders! It's 4mm increase or 21%
If you *then* add the Neuspeed 22mm front bar you increased 2mm or 10% biased BACK to the front.
The higher percentage to front adds *understeer*, which can suck.
SO, basically a TT with the front 22mm and rear 19mm is half as fun as a TT with just the 19mm rear. it will feel flatter though.

IF you want the flatter feel AND proper rear percentage biased bar set up, you need:
22mm front
22mm rear, this over stock =
front gained 10%
rear gained 38%, or a 28% overall rear biased that is VERY flat. this set up is giving even more oversteer than the 19mm alone. MORE is not always better as it also means you can end up in the weeds easier.


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## cdougyfresh (Sep 16, 2004)

*Re: Sway Bar Advice Needed (M this 1!)*

Thanks for the breakdown M1... I think a new rear sway will be one of my next purchases.


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## mdjenkins (Feb 16, 2010)

*Re: Sway Bar Advice Needed (M this 1!)*

Thank you M, that was exactly what I was looking for.
I think I understand correctly...
If I go for the 19mm Neuspeed rear and keep the oem 20mm front then I should have approx the same torsion in the rear as I do in the front.
If I go for the 22 Neuspeeds in both front and back I would get close the same effect but I would have a higher elastic limit. Meaning I could crank it to 11 which makes as much sense for my driving as using gold connectors on an optical cable.
So I'm fairly well sold on doing just the 19mm Neuspeed in the rear. This should give me less bias towards the front wheels resulting in level weight distribution when cornering. With this in mind, what about power distribution of a stock Haldex? From what I've read it's biased 80/20 towards the front with a controller that will redistribute it to a straight 50/50 as needed. It seems to me that with closely equal torsion between the front and back, it would be beneficial to mod the Haldex to default 50/50.


_Modified by mdjenkins at 10:42 AM 2/21/2010_


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## M this 1! (May 17, 2000)

*Re: Sway Bar Advice Needed (mdjenkins)*

You are spot on with the swaybar.
the Haldex stock does what you say, but can at the limit go to 50/50, but rarely does. it's set up to save your butt, not be entertaining. it is 95ish % fwd until wheelspin or high torque is detected
the Haldex upgrade no longer waits for wheelspin. if you floor it, the rear is hooked up BEFORE torque is built! and then it holds 50/50 alot more of the time and feels great!!! it still goes to 95% fwd on the freeway which is great for mpg and freeway speed.


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

*Re: Sway Bar Advice Needed (M this 1!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *M this 1!* »_clunking is usually strut bearing/rubber. 
The front and rear debate!!
stock 225= 15mm rear/20mm front
Adding the 19mm Neuspeed does wonders! It's 4mm increase or 21%
If you *then* add the Neuspeed 22mm front bar you increased 2mm or 10% biased BACK to the front.
The higher percentage to front adds *understeer*, which can suck.
SO, basically a TT with the front 22mm and rear 19mm is half as fun as a TT with just the 19mm rear. it will feel flatter though.

IF you want the flatter feel AND proper rear percentage biased bar set up, you need:
22mm front
22mm rear, this over stock =
front gained 10%
rear gained 38%, or a 28% overall rear biased that is VERY flat. this set up is giving even more oversteer than the 19mm alone. MORE is not always better as it also means you can end up in the weeds easier.

this is true for all bar setups that are *"preset"* from factory 
this is why adjustable bars were made to balance the car's suspension depending on the specific needs of the driver. 
essencially allowing you to jump back and forth with understeer/oversteer until you get where you want. 
But none the less, Great info, very well put together http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 



_Modified by DurTTy at 3:27 PM 2-22-2010_


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

*Re: Sway Bar Advice Needed (Neb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Neb* »_

_Quote »_ originally posted by darrenbyrnes » 
That's where I got mine.
I have some new front end links on order as my front end is sort of "clunking" a bit on the crappy roads this winter.


Mines doing the same. Although I swapped them out about a year ago..



Check your bushings on the front suspension system -- ie :: SB bushing, cotnrol arm bushing, strut bushings ... im sure you will find the clunker in there. 


_Modified by DurTTy at 4:51 PM 2-22-2010_


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## M this 1! (May 17, 2000)

*Re: Sway Bar Advice Needed (DurTTy)*

adjustables great for that. only neg is they don't go big enough. they 'end' stiffest in about the same area as other non adj. ones. I wish their stiff setting was........."u better have big balls for this setting punk!" it is cool they tone it down a good amount though.


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## A4 1.8 Turbo (Feb 28, 2005)

*Re: Sway Bar Advice Needed (M this 1!)*

well this thread was awesome!! Looks as though I'm going to be ordering a 19mm rear as well!


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

the "stiffness" is relative to the tension designed in the bar. 
having said that a larger diameter bar would have a larger "range" for tension adjustability. 
it is impossible to hypothesise that a 21mm bar will have lower "tension/stiffness" compared to a 19MM bar, adjustability brings you into a range below and above the setting of the bar itself along with allowing for a much lower ride for those who are slamming all the way possible.
im just saying that with any adjustable bar setup in the market you can acheive the same and more than a preset bar setup. 
but in the end its up to the consumer to decide what they are going for, the only thing that sucks is getting stuck with a setup that is "preset" and still not acheive what you need. 



_Modified by DurTTy at 4:55 PM 2-22-2010_


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

*Re: Sway Bar Advice Needed (A4 1.8 Turbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *A4 1.8 Turbo* »_well this thread was awesome!! Looks as though I'm going to be ordering a 19mm rear as well!


the 19mm is a great "stock" upgrade. the R32s came in 19mm rears oem. 
which is why the 19mm bars are so "user friendly" 
y not get a nice powdercoated product for a reasonable price.


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

*Re: (TToxic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TToxic* »_The very reason I have H&R 21mm sway - 3 settings helps a bit, not in a major way but nonetheless helps.

in conjuction with an adjustable front, the dynamic will jump even that much more. 
as stated, i run the H&R setup, but there are a few other companies that are just as competent. 
i beleive even neuspeed has adjustables.


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## Neb (Jan 25, 2005)

*Re: (TToxic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TToxic* »_The very reason I have H&R 21mm sway - 3 settings helps a bit, not in a major way but nonetheless helps.

how do you find the 21?


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## mdjenkins (Feb 16, 2010)

*Re: (DurTTy)*


_Quote »_it is impossible to hypothesise that a 21mm bar will have lower "tension/stiffness" compared to a 19MM bar, adjustability brings you into a range below and above the setting of the bar itself along with allowing for a much lower ride for those who are slamming all the way possible.
Along a cross section of the bar I would agree with you about stiffness (except in the case of a large hollow bar versus a solid thin bar). Except we're talking about the torsion of the bar which is twisting it through applied Torque. Torque is the cross product between the applied force and it's distance from the axis ( τ = rFsinθ ). 
So... As the radius from the axis decreases, torque also decreases which in turn decreases torsion (i.e. torsion is directly proportional to torque). Therefore with a lower torque setting, it is possible to achieve less torsion than a thinner bar. Lower torsion means less tension in the system. Conversely... increase the lever applying the force and it's much easier to twist the bar giving you more tension in the system.
What I would like to see is how the adjustable bars actually measure. From what I see on them, I suspect their settings are more like "off", "stock" and "on". As for the adjustable links and I'm thinking in practice they effectively limit/extend the range of θ.

_Modified by mdjenkins at 11:57 PM 2/22/2010_


_Modified by mdjenkins at 11:58 PM 2/22/2010_


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

there is no "stock" option on a 21mm rear bar or 25mm front. 
any bar that is larger diameter than stock will never have a "stock" option, using such anology is a false premise. 
the bars have an adjustability of "preset", stiffer and stiffest. 
m1 was saying he wished they had an even stiffer setting than the stiffest. 
Adjustable bars are truly the way to wake up your car in more than one way.

in the end, i truly beleive that each product has its own set of users. there is nothing wrong with non adjustable bars. 
it is just important that people understand the products without foregone conclusions.


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

just curious, what did you end up getting? 
if installed how do you like it etc?


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

*Re: (DurTTy)*

Front & Rear H&R swaybars. Fully adjustable & the price is right for the quality your getting.
There's really no other way to go unless you want hotchkiss bars which are more adjustable and maybe a little cheaper but I'm not sure if they are as large...
I personally think my front bar was more of an upgrade then the rear ever was. Don't make such a big deal out of dropping the subframe, I've SWAPPED full subframes in a few hours on a weeknight with work the next day and if all that takes you is a six pack we need to work on your drinking buddy!








BTW: M1this, my front bar decreased understeer on my car. It actually balanced my car out. 25mm front & 21mm rear H&R bars... It was my understanding that the front bar would allow less change in camber heading into a turn and thus increasing grip and decreasing understeer.

TT Toxic: There was a guy on the old audiworld that made his own custom rear end links and he found that it stiffened up the rear way too much and it would come around too fast in turns. While the rear endlinks are junk, the front are worse & longer IMO & I think the front of the car is where most of the weight is shifting around with our 60/40 un-balance... personally I have my rear bar set to the middle setting because on the stiff setting it feels unsafe @ high speeds.


_Modified by DougLoBue at 8:28 AM 3-25-2010_


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## M this 1! (May 17, 2000)

*Re: (DougLoBue)*

You're partially right. You initially gain grip of the camber not changing, the susp not squating, etc. But then as forces increase you lose that grip due to the lack of compliancy. as the sway bar size has increased, you are leaning harder now on that front tire (thru a corner). so it feels a ton better right off, but then gets worse if you increase your aggressiveness thru the corners. so it could be said, that you may love the thing to no end and never get to the adhesion limit i'm speaking of. 
very glad you're happy. always glad to see


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

*Re: (M this 1!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *M this 1!* »_You're partially right. You initially gain grip of the camber not changing, the susp not squating, etc. But then as forces increase you lose that grip due to the lack of compliancy. as the sway bar size has increased, you are leaning harder now on that front tire (thru a corner). so it feels a ton better right off, but then gets worse if you increase your aggressiveness thru the corners. so it could be said, that you may love the thing to no end and never get to the adhesion limit i'm speaking of. 
very glad you're happy. always glad to see

That was an awesome explanation. You're right, I do mostly street driving and I don't push my car to the point where I could eventually loose control. I'm very aggressive for a back road driver, but not like I'm on a track with no consequences.
I do recall the front end not sliding out as much after the addition of the FSB, however, it sounds like your telling me I will completely loose control at a certain point due to the addition of the front bar? So the car is only stable to a point, like reversed snap oversteer? Sounds about right to me because I've had the car come about on me a few times and got lucky... I thought those few times were just user error.


_Modified by DougLoBue at 7:26 PM 3-28-2010_


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## M this 1! (May 17, 2000)

*Re: (DougLoBue)*

I'm not saying it'll fully snap on you. just it'll go from feeling less understeer to more understeer when pushed to the limit. only time these cars can feel alittle snappy is letting off hard mid corner w/ a big rear bar and you'll get quick oversteer.


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## jason bouchard (Aug 25, 2005)

*Re: Sway Bar Advice Needed (DurTTy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DurTTy* »_

the 19mm is a great "stock" upgrade. the R32s came in 19mm rears oem. 


Just an FYI the USDM R32 comes with a 16mm NOT a 19mm RSB 
I made this mistake buying a 16mm one


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

*Re: Sway Bar Advice Needed (jason bouchard)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jason bouchard* »_
Just an FYI the USDM R32 comes with a 16mm NOT a 19mm RSB 
I made this mistake buying a 16mm one 

Yea, its important to mention that it is the Euro R32 with the 19mm bar. 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif good looking out.


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

*Re: (TToxic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TToxic* »_

TT Toxic: There was a guy on the old audiworld that made his own custom rear end links and he found that it stiffened up the rear way too much and it would come around too fast in turns. While the rear endlinks are junk, the front are worse & longer IMO & I think the front of the car is where most of the weight is shifting around with our 60/40 un-balance... personally I have my rear bar set to the middle setting because on the stiff setting it feels unsafe @ high speeds.

_Modified by DougLoBue at 8:28 AM 3-25-2010_

I'am basically using adjustable links for the improved structural integrity, the o.e.m. links did not cut it, bent, popped the joints etc. Although adjustable they are center - center spot on with o.e.m. specs. Adjustability on the fronts in small increments allows a nice dial in. Same here on the middle setting (rear) to unpredictable on the high end with 3rd stiff setting.[/QUOTE]
hey ... where you getting the adjustable sway bar end links? 
link us?


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## darrenbyrnes (Jan 4, 2005)

http://gruvenparts.com/website...id=60


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

yeesh, a little pricy for those lil suckers... consider that *4 plus adjustable rear end arms *4 
:S


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## chaugner (Jul 13, 2002)

*Re: (darrenbyrnes)*


_Quote, originally posted by *darrenbyrnes* »_http://gruvenparts.com/website...id=60

man I wish they had those a year ago when I put my rear end together. I was looking for proper end links for the rear bar but no one has em. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Volkl (Oct 2, 2003)

Bumping up a slightly old thread, but I'm researching a sway bar purchase. Would there be any disadvantage with running a larger sway bar in the rear? 

I'm considering leaving the stock up front, and doing the Neuspeed 22mm in the rear. The price difference is only $5 for the larger bar vs the 19mm. Has anyone run this setup?


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

Volkl said:


> Bumping up a slightly old thread, but I'm researching a sway bar purchase. Would there be any disadvantage with running a larger sway bar in the rear?
> 
> I'm considering leaving the stock up front, and doing the Neuspeed 22mm in the rear. The price difference is only $5 for the larger bar vs the 19mm. Has anyone run this setup?


 depends if your car is quattro or not, and 22mm will give you more oversteer vs 19mm


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## Volkl (Oct 2, 2003)

DurTTy said:


> depends if your car is quattro or not, and 22mm will give you more oversteer vs 19mm


 I have a 225 Quattro roadster


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

like i said a 22mm will give you more oversteer on a quattro vs a 19mm, 

where a 19mm will give you more oversteer vs stock


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## Volkl (Oct 2, 2003)

Right. I was curious if anyone had a similar setup, and what their opinion was of it.


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## DurTTy (Aug 14, 2007)

just be more careful when giving it gas around a turn where you feel the Gs leeching traction from your tires, 
cuz the minute you lose enough of traction (squawking) oversteer will kick your back end out -- not as much as RWD, 

but if you are not ready for it -- it could land you 180Degrees from your intended direction in a hurry

that's why Automakers rely so much on understeer for the every day consumer.


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