# Real 4X4s w/ 20+ MPG Highway



## rudyr (Nov 29, 2001)

We had a Jeep Liberty for our recent trip to New Mexico. It was the version with the part-time 4WD system that has a 4Lo setting. I was impressed that despite the nothing fancy V6/4-speed auto + boxy exterior that it managed 20MPG w/ 70+ MPH highway cruising. I read that the Liberty's MPG isn't considered stellar vs. cute-utes, but it's obviously in a totally different class in terms of off-road capability. So, had me wondering, what other truck/SUVs with similar off-road capability are good for over 20MPG on the highway.


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## VeeDub_L_U (Feb 3, 2003)

The new 4runner is supposed to be able to achieve that, and some are saying they have, but I don't have experience myself.


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## Syonara_G60Style (Nov 15, 2005)

Touareg TDI


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## jetta4129 (Nov 20, 2003)

I can easily achieve that mpg in my wrangler. I usually average 22 mpg with a 50-50 mix of city highway driving.


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## rudyr (Nov 29, 2001)

I noticed the new Grand Cherokee w/ the V6 is listed at 22mpg highway for the 4x4 version; after my experience w/ the Liberty, I could see myself considering something like this down the road.


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## EC Transplant (Aug 27, 2005)

We have a 2010 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited hardtop. EPA is 15/19, but we have been getting a combined 21 mpg with a 20/80 split of city/hwy driving. On a recent run from San Francisco to Seattle, we were able to average 23.5 mpg both ways, with an average speed of 70-75 mph.


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## onebadbug (Dec 21, 2002)

My 96 Cherokee 4.0 automatic just did 21.2 mpg on each leg of a 575 mile round trip. I was quite happy with that. 

On trips in my wife's 96 Grand Cherokee 4.0 automatic we'd watch the trip computer and wonder IF we'd hit the magic number (20) before getting off the freeway. Most times it ddn't make it. Refueling and doing the math never showed 20 mpgs. 

edit: I should probably add that the GC had the trailer towing package, the C doesn't.


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## ArtieLange (Sep 14, 2008)

Syonara_G60Style said:


> Touareg TDI


 
I just got 28.75 mpg on a 200 mile rt on the freeway. I just had a bunch of the engine apart and had the intakes tanked to get rid of all the tar inside them< i guess that freed up about 4 mpg because my mpg has never been this high.


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## GotEuroCorrado (Apr 28, 2002)

my v10 can do 25mpg at about 70-75mph


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## 2500LSS (Nov 16, 2010)

my gf's 02 overland grand cherokee (4.7 V8 H.0.) gets 17mpg steady - 

not 20mpg.. but with the amount of sack that comes with that V8 - 

it's a home run for us. (close enough to 20 )


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## USN_JeepWK (Sep 1, 2009)

My old diesel '08 Grand Cherokee used to get 23 mpg consistently on the highway at 75 mph, and sometimes as high as 24.5 mpg (though usually at slower speeds). 

My current hemi got around 20 mpg before the lift and tires... Now its slightly (read: drastically) lower.


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## CreeperSleeper (May 29, 2003)

Liberty? Touareg? IFS Grand Cherokee?!? The title says "Real 4x4s"...  

My Dodge gets around 25 mpg on the hwy... (That's hand calculated, not from the lie-o-meter.) And it's on 35's with a real front axle. It also weighs 7500 lbs.


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## 2500LSS (Nov 16, 2010)

CreeperSleeper said:


> Liberty? Touareg? IFS Grand Cherokee?!? The title says "Real 4x4s"...
> 
> My Dodge gets around 25 mpg on the hwy... (That's hand calculated, not from the lie-o-meter.) And it's on 35's with a real front axle. It also weighs 7500 lbs.


 

that's all well and good - 

but if you don't need a truck; if you want something that's good off-road; 

you're going to get an SUV. 


the cummins rams (in mint condition, with low mileage) are difficult to find; and ridiculously expensive. 



(you can't tell me anything - i have a Ram too. it's far too long to be viable off-road; with no weight in it - you MUST be in 4x4 to get around in a snowstorm, i have a hard time getting around in the city - driving is one thing, finding a MASSIVE parking space - is unrealistic at best, etc.) 




the grand cherokee with IFS is bomb off-road; you're barking up the wrong tree here. 


You can't dispute this, with me anyways, since when I look out my window - there's an 01 ram 2500HD with 35's, and an 02 GC overland - stock.


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## nastyhabit16v (Jun 15, 2005)

2500LSS said:


> the grand cherokee with IFS is bomb off-road; you're barking up the wrong tree here.


 :what: 


What type of off-road is an IFS Grand good on? Gravel driveway? Forest service road? :laugh: 

Chad, what year and what mods are on your Ram? What MPG do you get towing? I've been looking for some type of used diesel like a 7.3 PSD or early 2000 Cummins to tow my Cherokee (yes, my little XJ on 32's ).


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## Shomegrown (Feb 26, 2002)

CreeperSleeper said:


> Liberty? Touareg? IFS Grand Cherokee?!? The title says "Real 4x4s"...
> 
> My Dodge gets around 25 mpg on the hwy... (That's hand calculated, not from the lie-o-meter.) And it's on 35's with a real front axle. It also weighs 7500 lbs.


 Cute red truck. 

Here's a stock Touareg TDI with 9,600 lbs of extra weight inside towing 342,000 lbs. 

Show me a stock ram with 10k lbs in the bed towing that much. Your "real" 4x4 will be sitting on the bumpstops. :laugh:


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## CreeperSleeper (May 29, 2003)

2500LSS said:


> that's all well and good -
> 
> but if you don't need a truck; if you want something that's good off-road;
> 
> ...


 You're right about the Ram, mine is a pavement princess and I'm okay with it. I couldn't tell you how well it wheels because I will never wheel it. As far as the GC goes, pics or STFU. :bs: 



nastyhabit16v said:


> :what:
> 
> What type of off-road is an IFS Grand good on? Gravel driveway? Forest service road? :laugh:
> 
> Chad, what year and what mods are on your Ram? What MPG do you get towing? I've been looking for some type of used diesel like a 7.3 PSD or early 2000 Cummins to tow my Cherokee (yes, my little XJ on 32's ).


 It's a 2005. Not may mods yet to be honest: Leveling kit, 35's, built trans, 5" turbo-back exhaust, etc, etc... I have a Quadzilla Adrenaline coming tomorrow, so that will be fun! 



Shomegrown said:


> Cute red truck.
> 
> Here's a stock Touareg TDI with 9,600 lbs of extra weight inside towing 342,000 lbs.
> 
> Show me a stock ram with 10k lbs in the bed towing that much. Your "real" 4x4 will be sitting on the bumpstops. :laugh:


 Probably not considering there is no tounge weight on the Touareg... Either way, I wasn't saying anything about it's towing ability. A Touareg is not a true 4x4 vehicle. It's an AWD vehicle with really good electronics and a low range... Kinda like a MB ML-Class. 

That being said, nut up and take your Touerag though the Gammers or Rubicon or Moab. I want to see pics of your "real 4x4" in action! Oh wait! You don't own one....


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## USN_JeepWK (Sep 1, 2009)

CreeperSleeper said:


> Liberty? Touareg? IFS Grand Cherokee?!? The title says "Real 4x4s"...
> 
> My Dodge gets around 25 mpg on the hwy... (That's hand calculated, not from the lie-o-meter.) And it's on 35's with a real front axle. It also weighs 7500 lbs.


 Ok, lets see your offroad pictures! 



nastyhabit16v said:


> :what:
> 
> 
> What type of off-road is an IFS Grand good on? Gravel driveway? Forest service road? :laugh:
> ...


 The kind where ya give the skids a workout  





































I'm a Jeep purist (on my 7th Jeep and 2nd w/ IFS) and used to have those illusions that IFS is not as capable... But considering the WK (with Quadra Drive II) has one of the most capable 4wd systems available with its fully locking differentials and transfer case, I'm sold on its capability.


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## Shomegrown (Feb 26, 2002)

CreeperSleeper said:


> Probably not considering there is no tounge weight on the Touareg... Either way, I wasn't saying anything about it's towing ability. A Touareg is not a true 4x4 vehicle. It's an AWD vehicle with really good electronics and a low range... Kinda like a MB ML-Class.
> 
> That being said, nut up and take your Touerag though the Gammers or Rubicon or Moab. I want to see pics of your "real 4x4" in action! Oh wait! You don't own one....


 I said inside, not on the tongue. It was loaded with about 10,000 lbs of ballast. 

And yes it's a real 4x4 vehicle. It has a locking Borg Warner transfer case with low range. It has locking front and rear differentials. Does your "real" 4x4 have factory locking front and rear differentials?  

Here's Moab - without even engaging the lockers it looks like.


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## USN_JeepWK (Sep 1, 2009)

Shomegrown said:


> I said inside, not on the tongue. It was loaded with about 10,000 lbs of ballast.
> 
> And yes it's a real 4x4 vehicle. It has a locking Borg Warner transfer case with low range. It has locking front and rear differentials. Does your "real" 4x4 have factory locking front and rear differentials?


 But it has IFS and IRS and has no offroad capability and therefore does not belong in this thread.  I mean _real_ offroad vehicles like the Hummer have solid axles


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## nastyhabit16v (Jun 15, 2005)

USN_JeepWK said:


> But it has IFS and IRS and has no offroad capability and therefore does not belong in this thread.  I mean _real_ offroad vehicles like the Hummer have solid axles


 Continuing on this tangent this thread is on those trails are nothing to write home about. While pictures never do justice they look pretty tame nonetheless. Sure an IFS rig can be fun and capable but only to a point. They have huge limitations and will never be as capable as a solid axle rig. Hell, you're lifting a tire on what looks to be nothing more than a dirt mound (just sayin'). If that's all you're going to wheel then as your picture suggest your IFS rig will serve you well. Its just not mine or Creeper's preference (not to put words in your mouth ). 

Also, H2's are IFS and in no way shape are form are considered an offroad vehicle in my book. H1 Hummers and Humvees are though. But I just can't seem to think of a time where I have EVER seen a solid axle Hummer. They must be REALLY rare. Perhaps you can elighten me.  



Shomegrown said:


> I said inside, not on the tongue. It was loaded with about 10,000 lbs of ballast.
> 
> Here's Moab - without even engaging the lockers it looks like.


 Meh. I'll say it again, those lines are nothing to write home about. Take one of those up Potato Salad Hill, though the hot tub, Escalator or Area BFE then come see me. 

IIRC, Touareg's have air suspension. Therefore with the 10,000lbs evenly distributed and the suspension fully inflated it makes sense that it looks flat and level. Sure a 3/4 ton truck w/ the same weight in the bed would likely sag pretty bad, however, with a set of air bags (like the T-reg) I think it could handle it just fine. 

Just playing devil's advocate here...


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## mk4vr6vdubing (Feb 15, 2010)

USN_JeepWK said:


> But it has IFS and IRS and has no offroad capability and therefore does not belong in this thread.  I mean _real_ offroad vehicles like the Hummer have solid axles


 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaoFzTVQcUs&playnext=1&list=PL6199076389BE6A10&index=64 please insert foot in mouth now:laugh:


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## CreeperSleeper (May 29, 2003)

You guys are funny... To me a real 4x4 has to have some key equiptment: a real transfer case (not an AWD case with low range), a real frame (not unibody), axles that will hold up to the strain of off-road (IFS isn't a bad thing, though I wont wheel a rig with IFS. I've done that before and they don't hold up to what I do.)

All of the rigs posted in this thread before my post was missing at least one of those. I can go blow for blow with you guys in regards to capability but what would that prove? If you want to prove me wrong, come wheel with me.

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk


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## 2500LSS (Nov 16, 2010)

nastyhabit16v said:


> What type of off-road is an IFS Grand good on? Gravel driveway? Forest service road? :laugh:


 
it's pretty god damn capable. even early critics of the gc nameplate had no choice but to hand it to the Jeep off-road; it's no mud buggy - but it will go where you steer it. point and shoot 


keep in mind, it was competition for a lot of LAME ASS suv's, like the MDX - the mountaineer - and the like... vehicles with ZERO off-road ability 




CreeperSleeper said:


> You're right about the Ram, mine is a pavement princess and I'm okay with it. I couldn't tell you how well it wheels because I will never wheel it. As far as the GC goes, pics or STFU. ...


 

First of all, if you Ever want to get crazy with your ram - might i suggest; MUD! (i tried it once and found out mine's a little piglet - eats it up; and ****s it right back out... nearly perfect) but since mine's shiny, and black, i'm guilty of a pavement princess status as well. 

no pics of THIS GC off-road, it will not go off-road, because it is nice. 

It DOES have the UpCountry suspension, it's not a lift kit per-se, but it does sit considerably taller than a regular GC suspension; it's also got some other little goodies lurking for longer susp travel, stock skid plates, etc. 

however, my friends 97 GC (long since killed off, lasted over 200k) was hardly ever ON-road. in stock form; it was beast 




CreeperSleeper said:


> You guys are funny... To me a real 4x4 has to have some key equiptment: a real transfer case (not an AWD case with low range), a real frame (not unibody), axles that will hold up to the strain of off-road (IFS isn't a bad thing, though I wont wheel a rig with IFS. I've done that before and they don't hold up to what I do.)
> 
> All of the rigs posted in this thread before my post was missing at least one of those. I can go blow for blow with you guys in regards to capability but what would that prove? If you want to prove me wrong, come wheel with me.


 
uh-oh... 

we've got a hypocrite on our hands... 

you just told me your truck was a pavement princess; now you want to go wheeling? where... at wal-mart, over the parking stones? :laugh: 



as far as having a 'real frame' and 'solid axles' - those specific characteristics are DYING OFF; you'll have to get some crappy old ramcharger, K5, or a (too tall, too wide, too long) pickup truck to satisfy that. 


basically, for all intensive purposes - unless your idea of wheeling, is what the competative Rock Crawler teams do every weekend - virtually ANY AWD with 4Low range (like; a grand cherokee) Properly Equipped; will do its job off-road. 


/end banter. 



and btw - say hello to my little friend... 











no, those are not 35's - they're my old 33's  sold, and the new tires are on new rims in the shed at the moment. (nitto grapplers) 

matching ToughCountry bumper for the rear has been ordered - it should be here within 2weeks.


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## USN_JeepWK (Sep 1, 2009)

mk4vr6vdubing said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaoFzTVQcUs&playnext=1&list=PL6199076389BE6A10&index=64 please insert foot in mouth now:laugh:





nastyhabit16v said:


> Continuing on this tangent this thread is on those trails are nothing to write home about. While pictures never do justice they look pretty tame nonetheless. Sure an IFS rig can be fun and capable but only to a point. They have huge limitations and will never be as capable as a solid axle rig. Hell, you're lifting a tire on what looks to be nothing more than a dirt mound (just sayin'). If that's all you're going to wheel then as your picture suggest your IFS rig will serve you well. Its just not mine or Creeper's preference (not to put words in your mouth ).
> 
> Also, H2's are IFS and in no way shape are form are considered an offroad vehicle in my book. H1 Hummers and Humvees are though. But I just can't seem to think of a time where I have EVER seen a solid axle Hummer. They must be REALLY rare. Perhaps you can elighten me.


 I figured everyone would catch the sarcasm of the hummer comment (and by hummer I do mean H1)... I was wrong  

I would agree that the H2 is not a very good offroad vehicle (the plethora of "popped" tie rod videos will back that up pretty well), but the H1 and all of its IFS/IRS glory is definitely a true offroad vehicle... So I get where people bash IFS because of the lack of articulation (which I agree can reduce traction in high articulation situations... I don't think anyone is denying that), but I don't understand how people just flat out refuse to believe it is possible to wheel with IFS. 

Ha, yeah pictures never do situations justice... But no, those pictures aren't what I consider "extreme wheeling" or anything like that either. Yes it was mostly dirt with some rocks thrown in (the joys of being in south east TX) but there were some nice obstacles also. My WK will see Moab and the San Juans in CO before the year is out  



CreeperSleeper said:


> You guys are funny... To me a real 4x4 has to have some key equiptment: a real transfer case (not an AWD case with low range), a real frame (not unibody), axles that will hold up to the strain of off-road (IFS isn't a bad thing, though I wont wheel a rig with IFS. I've done that before and they don't hold up to what I do.)
> 
> All of the rigs posted in this thread before my post was missing at least one of those. I can go blow for blow with you guys in regards to capability but what would that prove? If you want to prove me wrong, come wheel with me.
> 
> Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk


 Wow, this thread went to 4x4 vehicles that can get over 20 mpg to an IFS and unibody bashing thread fast! So by your definition, a XJ cherokee falls short of being an "4x4" while a TJ wrangler fits the bill... Even though the only difference is the fact that the cherokee is unibody? So what? Have you EVER seen a cherokee in a high articulation situation not able to open its doors? I doubt it! So who cares if it is unibody... I've seen some built cherokees that would blow your truck out of the water in any situation. 

Your transfer case comment also makes no sense to me... Why would the fact that my transfer case has no 2wd option matter in an offroad situation? Yeah its all wheel drive on the street... But as soon as you are off pavement its the same as putting any other transfer case into 4hi and locks up completely as soon as its in 4lo... Why would that make it any less of an offroad vehicle? 

Strangely your only argument that I even think is relevant at all is the IFS one... I completely agree that if you are doing competition rock crawling (for example) you MUST have solid axles, IFS just wont cut it. I also agree that solid axle vehicles will get better traction in off camber situations than IFS vehicles. I'm not denying that at all! I'm only stating that while you "choose" not to wheel win an IFS vehicle, that does not mean that they are not capable of doing so. 

There are other things that make a vehicle offroad capable than just IFS vs solid or unibody vs frame. For example, you have an incredibly long wheel base which would make something like black bear pass in CO almost impossible... Infact in my opinion a wheel base that long makes real offroading in the mountains or Moab very difficult without body damage. 

I doubt I'm going to prove to you that IFS can be used to offroad... but I'll just leave these here:


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## CreeperSleeper (May 29, 2003)

I didn't say I would wheel the Dodge!

And as far as stout axles and solid frames, they are not dying IMO. (Note: I said" stout" not" solid" axles.)

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk


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## CreeperSleeper (May 29, 2003)

Apparently is wasn't clear enough:

Unibody has no reason to be on a 4x4 vehicle that gets used hard. Period. They end up destroying themselves.

In regards to transfer cases, the one in the GC posted above is a full time 4x4 case, not an AWD case. If you are going to debate with me, read what I post and know what you're talking about. It has nothing to do with having a 2-high spot on the shifter. My wheeler doesn't have one either.

And, again, I said stout axles. IFS can be stout. Most of them out of the box are not. Period.

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk


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## 2500LSS (Nov 16, 2010)

CreeperSleeper said:


> I didn't say I would wheel the Dodge!


 
... well then ... 




CreeperSleeper said:


> If you want to prove me wrong, come wheel with me.


 
were you inviting us on a mountain bike expedition?


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## 2500LSS (Nov 16, 2010)

...and just to irritate the **** out of all you guys, i've been driving this for work - for Yearsss. 


:laugh: 












where's the dirt on THAT motha****a  (honestly; we parked it on grass once.)


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## USN_JeepWK (Sep 1, 2009)

CreeperSleeper said:


> Apparently is wasn't clear enough:
> 
> Unibody has no reason to be on a 4x4 vehicle that gets used hard. Period. They end up destroying themselves.
> 
> ...


 No you aren't being clear... You clearly stated earlier that IFS was rubbish offroad, but now say its ok if its "stout"? Stout enough for ya? 










And don't even start on the difference between "AWD" vs "Full time 4wd". The terms are repeatedly screwed up and I just assumed by the ignorance of your earlier comments that you too had screwed up the term... True AWD transfer cases typically don't have low range, thus confusing your comment even further. 

As far as the unibody comment... Once again, really? Saying they end up destroying themselves is just ignorant. Period. 










Yes in my example a roll cage has been added for increased rigidity... but you'd add a roll cage to a framed vehicle in this situation too.


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## 2500LSS (Nov 16, 2010)

Owner + intended purpose + preparation = use. 

apply to your vehicle; have a great time - and STFU  (myself included)


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## CBJ (Sep 16, 2000)

2500LSS said:


> ... well then ...
> 
> 
> were you inviting us on a mountain bike expedition?


 If you look under Creepers ID on the left you'll see he has a 97 80 Series LC, which I'm sure is more then capable off-road. 

Back on Topic.... I dream of 20 mpg highway. Actually it would be nice to beat 18 but no luck so far and I drive, what many consider a "real" off-road capable vehicle. Even if it says AWD on the back.


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## CreeperSleeper (May 29, 2003)

Someone caught that I have a Cruiser! I was wondering if that would happen...

And you guys are totally right, I'm ignorant and waisting my breath... I'm done now and will go one to more important things like finishing my 3-link design for my customers rock crawler.

Good luck on your quest!

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk


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## Shomegrown (Feb 26, 2002)

nastyhabit16v said:


> Meh. I'll say it again, those lines are nothing to write home about. Take one of those up Potato Salad Hill, though the hot tub, Escalator or Area BFE then come see me.
> 
> IIRC, Touareg's have air suspension. Therefore with the 10,000lbs evenly distributed and the suspension fully inflated it makes sense that it looks flat and level. Sure a 3/4 ton truck w/ the same weight in the bed would likely sag pretty bad, however, with a set of air bags (like the T-reg) I think it could handle it just fine.
> 
> Just playing devil's advocate here...


 You're missing my point. I find it silly to call a vehicle a real locking transfer case, locking front/rear differentials, strong axles, good ground clearance, and more off-road capability than 90% of stock vehicles out there not a "real 4x4" as much of what stock vehicles he does consider real are arguably less capable.


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## EC Transplant (Aug 27, 2005)

[No message]


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## USN_JeepWK (Sep 1, 2009)

CreeperSleeper said:


> Someone caught that I have a Cruiser! I was wondering if that would happen...
> 
> And you guys are totally right, I'm ignorant and waisting my breath... I'm done now and will go one to more important things like finishing my 3-link design for my customers rock crawler.
> 
> ...


 Look, you have a good point or two. But to come in here and flat out say the vehicles posted aren't 4x4 vehicles just because you don't like or prefer their frame or suspension setup *IS* ignorant. This coming from someone who claims a "pavement princess" that is too long and too heavy to do any real offroading is a real 4x4? 



Shomegrown said:


> You're missing my point. I find it silly to call a vehicle a real locking transfer case, locking front/rear differentials, strong axles, good ground clearance, and more off-road capability than 90% of stock vehicles out there not a "real 4x4" as much of what stock vehicles he does consider real are arguably less capable.


 Exactly...


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## overby (Mar 28, 2009)

CreeperSleeper said:


> Liberty? Touareg? IFS Grand Cherokee?!? The title says "Real 4x4s"...
> 
> My Dodge gets around 25 mpg on the hwy... (That's hand calculated, not from the lie-o-meter.) And it's on 35's with a real front axle. It also weighs 7500 lbs.


 Every time I see a pic of your truck it makes me want one even more


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## Withidlehands (Nov 29, 2007)

Lots of offroad trucks use ifs only. Some arent even 4x4. As long as it isnt rocks then IFS is fine. 










also I have always loved your 80 btw. (creeper)


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## Trike Kid (Sep 28, 2008)

Withidlehands said:


> Lots of offroad trucks use ifs only. Some arent even 4x4. As long as it isnt rocks then IFS is fine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Go fast desert beating and the kind of offroad that CreeperSleeper is talking about are two different things. I mean, my bug can do what those grand Cherocars are doing in the pics, but it won't run the Busywild or the Hammers 

The guy with the WK, yeah, unibodys do destroy themselves, ask anyone that's wheeled one hard. I run into plenty of die-hard cherokee guys in the woods and even they tell me that you better do suspension you can bolt on, because you'll be moving it to another shell in a couple years. Cherokees have two things going for them, being cheap, and the 4.0. After that you have a tin can with axles fit for a barbie jeep. 

and to stay on track, here's a real 4x4 that pulled 20mpg or better on the highway, WITH A CARBURETOR (exactly as it was configured in this pic)


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## USN_JeepWK (Sep 1, 2009)

Trike Kid said:


> Go fast desert beating and the kind of offroad that CreeperSleeper is talking about are two different things. I mean, my bug can do what those grand Cherocars are doing in the pics, but it won't run the Busywild or the Hammers
> 
> The guy with the WK, yeah, unibodys do destroy themselves, ask anyone that's wheeled one hard. I run into plenty of die-hard cherokee guys in the woods and even they tell me that you better do suspension you can bolt on, because you'll be moving it to another shell in a couple years. Cherokees have two things going for them, being cheap, and the 4.0. After that you have a tin can with axles fit for a barbie jeep.
> 
> and to stay on track, here's a real 4x4 that pulled 20mpg or better on the highway, WITH A CARBURETOR (exactly as it was configured in this pic)


 While I agree that a Baja Bug can probably do the trails I posted with my own WK... But the pictures of WK's on Golden Crack, Tipover Challenge, and the other Moab trails? Really? That's one impressive Bug! 

I am a Cherokee guy, I've owned 2 XJ's and an MJ (a unibody truck)... In my 10 years of owning and wheeling Jeeps and posting on internet Jeep forums I've never heard of people complaing about their unibodys "falling apart"... Yes, people have damaged their unibodys beyond repair, but that is usually due to one bad mistake (usually something that would stricken even a framed vehicle), and not years of general offroading or abuse. A properly set up XJ w/ body armor, skids, and a competent driver should have no problem wheeling with the best and getting home in one piece. Sure, there are problem areas (where the steering box mounts for example)... But there are problem areas on many framed vehicles too. And if they are properly taken care of, they will last indefinitely. I *never* claimed a unibody was better than a frame or anything like that. Solid frames do have their benefits. I'm just stating that unibody vehicles are by no means unable to wheel and last. As far as the axles, D44's were options on the rear and in some cases the front of XJ's and MJ's, an axle more than capable of handling the torque and weight of a built cherokee. 

And for the record, this thread is not about racing in the King of the Hammers or extreme rock crawling where a short wheel base and 44's are a must... This thread is just about "offroading" in general. So just because your bug can do the things that these 4x4's are doing does not make them any less of a 4x4... Just makes your bug one beefy baja!  (post some pix, i love Baja's!)


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## 2500LSS (Nov 16, 2010)

USN_JeepWK said:


> A properly set up XJ w/ body armor, skids, and a competent driver should have no problem wheeling with the best and getting home in one piece.


 
precisely. 


if you're tearing parts off your vehicle, no matter what the hell you drive; you're doing it wrong


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## rudyr (Nov 29, 2001)

Wow - didn't know I'd spark so much debate. I guess simplistically for me my definition of a "real" 4x4 was something that isn't available in a FWD version (e.g. transverse engine w/ power to the rear on demand like say a RAV4) + maybe a 4Lo setting. I realize that is lacking for some of the intense uses people are demonstrating here, but I don't think I'd be concerned about getting 20 MPG from a rock crawler. The most intense off-road situations I've encountered are pretty much the limit that I'd expect an off-the-lot vehicle to handle: deep mud in rain forest roads and "4WD required" service roads like I recently drove in during blizzard conditions. Neither of those I would have felt as comfortable doing in a RAV4 but felt pretty confident navigating w/ a little Suzuki jeep-type thing and the Liberty.


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## 2500LSS (Nov 16, 2010)

^ bring blankets and food


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## Justin (Mar 7, 2006)

nastyhabit16v said:


> IIRC, Touareg's have air suspension. Therefore with the 10,000lbs evenly distributed and the suspension fully inflated it makes sense that it looks flat and level. Sure a 3/4 ton truck w/ the same weight in the bed would likely sag pretty bad, however, with a set of air bags (like the T-reg) I think it could handle it just fine.


 I have only put something like 4k in the bed of my F350 but I added 10psi of air into the bags and I couldn't see a difference...couldn't feel it driving either. 

My truck has been off the road, when I needed to make a u-turn


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## Trike Kid (Sep 28, 2008)

2500LSS said:


> precisely.
> 
> 
> if you're tearing parts off your vehicle, no matter what the hell you drive; you're doing it wrong


 No, it means your cage is on the wrong side of the sheet metal. I welcome you to run my local trails in most of the vehicles mentioned in this thread and leave without touching a tree. 

USN_JeepWK, What XJ/MJ's had a 44 front? I looked into building a Comanche for a while and never saw that even mentioned. That was before I sat down and looked at how much more capable a Toyota is, so I haven't glanced that direction in a long time. MJ's are MUCH better than an XJ though,being that they almost have a real frame. 

Best whooped unibody I've ever seen though was a 2 door XJ that a friend of a friend wheels. His shell is to the point he has to pretty much be parked on flat ground to close his doors. Of course, 37's and a stroked 4.0 didn't help it any.


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## USN_JeepWK (Sep 1, 2009)

Trike Kid said:


> USN_JeepWK, What XJ/MJ's had a 44 front? I looked into building a Comanche for a while and never saw that even mentioned. That was before I sat down and looked at how much more capable a Toyota is, so I haven't glanced that direction in a long time. MJ's are MUCH better than an XJ though,being that they almost have a real frame.


 They are rare and mostly (if not all) on export vehicles. But they show up every once and a while here in the states. MJ's are great and I wish I still had mine, someday I'll build one again! And I can contest to the awesomeness of a stroked 4.0! First engine I ever built back in HS in one of my old XJ's.


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## veedubbin (Oct 13, 2001)

> Ok, lets see your offroad pictures!


 Are you doubting a rams off road ability? 

Heres mine, I have a hemi with MDS, I get 19-20mpg @65 
Most are from my cab (sorry)


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## 2500LSS (Nov 16, 2010)

Again... 




2500LSS said:


> Owner + intended purpose + preparation = use.
> 
> apply to your vehicle; have a great time - and STFU  (myself included)


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## 1Point8TDan (Sep 4, 2003)

Perfect size truck. You don't need to slow down much when taking corners and will do +20mpg highway.


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## Elliot (Aug 17, 2000)

VeeDub_L_U said:


> The new 4runner is supposed to be able to achieve that, and some are saying they have, but I don't have experience myself.


 I get 15mpg city, 23-24mpg highway. Not thrilled with the city mileage.


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## Mr. Chaos (Oct 13, 2010)

i believe a suzuki samurai fits your criteria. 4x4, body on frame, gets around 30 mpg on average


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## VeeDub_L_U (Feb 3, 2003)

Elliot said:


> I get 15mpg city, 23-24mpg highway. Not thrilled with the city mileage.


 You have a 5th gen? How do you like it? 

I'm a huge 4runner fanboy. My dad had a 87, 92, 95, 97, 99, and 2003 growing up. I've had a 2000 Limited w/rear diff lock, 2005 sport edition and now a 2007 Limited. I love how versatile they are. I had to give up my 2000 Limited because I needed more towing ability. Ideally I would have bought a 4th gen. with a V8 but they are so expensive new here, so I got a 5.7L Tundra. 13mpg wasn't very much fun so I got a 2005 V8 4runner that handled all my towing duties, but the 2007 with the self levelling rear and V8 is amazing. The new 4runner is nice looking and very capable but they without the v8 I have no interest at all. My next vehicle will either be the new Grand Cherokee or an EcoBoost F150.


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## 2500LSS (Nov 16, 2010)

and,


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## mike in SC (Apr 29, 2004)

My dad keeps a 1991 ford explorer 4x4 ( 5 speed manual ) around as an extra vehicle. In high school and college it regularly got 20-25 mpg with highway traveling. City mileage was only 5 mpg worse. 
It's been extremely reliable too.


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## wRek (Apr 28, 2004)

I think some of you guys are underestimating CreeperSleeper because he has a Dodge Ram that he doesn't wheel. Why would he? Long wheelbase FTL. 

Here's a picture I found of his 80. I think even this one is a couple years old. 


__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view


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## Boostedcorrados (Dec 2, 2003)

20 if i drove it nice before the rebuild. IFS lasted 3 years and trail abuse 4+ times a week. Boulder Carnage was about 10 minutes from my house and I was always pushing it. Broke one tierod and one cv. The cv was my fault for too much droop in the home brew long travel 


















After the rebuild i now daily it. 
















Its swapped now and gets 27-32 on 37's as a daily.


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## CreeperSleeper (May 29, 2003)

wRek said:


> I think some of you guys are underestimating CreeperSleeper because he has a Dodge Ram that he doesn't wheel. Why would he? Long wheelbase FTL.
> 
> Here's a picture I found of his 80. I think even this one is a couple years old.
> 
> ...


Thanks wRek. I appreciate the support. I started out being tounge-in-cheek, then I got defensive when people were not listening to what I was saying! My fault. :thumbup: They don't need to know what or how I wheel. The people fighting me will never put a vehicle in the places I do so they will never understand. That's cool!


Speaking of which, I forgot about my '85 4Runner... It got 25mpg on the hwy on 35's with the A/C on. Now THAT is a true 4x4 with good mileage!


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## Lawrider (May 16, 2010)

While this thread has gotten way off target, the Liberty CRD would be the outstanding option as the lovely diesel can get high 20s on the highway. The key with the CRD is the factory implementation is piss poor so a few simple mods will make it run much nicer, and a tune will bump it to 360tq.


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## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Wrangler Unlimited owner here....

Look, I appreciate the attributes of two solid axles in extreme offroading. But a hardcore rock-crawling rig is just one way to set up a "real 4x4." Look at Baja trucks and prerunners, or vehicles like the F-150 Raptor. And let's face it: you can have a lot of fun exploring incredible places on milder trails where IFS or solid axles wouldn't really matter either way. There are a lot of tough, capable vehicles I'd happily take into some very rough country that have IFS. And they usually end up being better all-round vehicles - more comfortable on pavement, washboarded dirt, and more efficient. 

Frankly, I wouldn't mind if my Wrangler had IFS. Heresy, I know, but for what I use it for, it wouldn't really make a difference. Unless it's a dedicated trail rig, I'd prefer a slightly better on-road ride and handling balance. 

Now, all that said: I think the new Grand Cherokee is an amazing vehicle - X5 luxury, Range Rover offroad chops, GC pricing. And my rental got an honest to god 23mpg, at 75mph, at high altitude in Wyoming. And it also took on a pretty damn rugged fire trail when I got where I was going. It was a better all-rounder than my Wrangler, no question, and it had legitimate low range, great ground clearance, and skid plates.


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## jmvar (Nov 19, 2001)

How are you guys calculating MPG? It is amazing how internet MGP #'s are so different from real life :what::what::what::what:


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## EC Transplant (Aug 27, 2005)

Turbiodiesel! said:


> Wrangler Unlimited owner here....
> 
> Look, I appreciate the attributes of two solid axles in extreme offroading. But a hardcore rock-crawling rig is just one way to set up a "real 4x4." Look at Baja trucks and prerunners, or vehicles like the F-150 Raptor. And let's face it: you can have a lot of fun exploring incredible places on milder trails where IFS or solid axles wouldn't really matter either way. There are a lot of tough, capable vehicles I'd happily take into some very rough country that have IFS. And they usually end up being better all-round vehicles - more comfortable on pavement, washboarded dirt, and more efficient.
> 
> ...


*After having owned a JK Unlimited as well for going on a year now, I still would wholeheartedly agree with you.

For my wife and I (and future kid), the new Grand Cherokee would have been a better vehicle. Aside from the actual on-road handling and better overall content, the main reason is really having the v8 vs. the anemic (for the Wrangler anyway) v6--more power and better mileage.

However, the GC is no Wrangler, and the wife really likes the idea of Jeeps looking like "Jeeps." *



jmvar said:


> How are you guys calculating MPG? It is amazing how internet MGP #'s are so different from real life :what::what::what::what:


*Reset the trip meter, fill the tank to full until cut-off, squeeze again until cut-off (doesn't really matter what you do, just as long as you're consistent and go to the same station). At the next fill up, record trip mileage, repeat fuelling steps above, take mileage/gallons. Repeat. Using this method, I have found that the "AVG MPG" computer is actually within 0.2 MPG of actual, hand calculated mileage.*


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## flygliii (Jun 29, 2006)

I had a 1980 Toyota 4x4 pickup, (regretfully) sold it in 1995. It had a carbureted I-4 , solid axles w/ leaf springs, long-bed, 5 speed, manual hubs, 2 range transfer case in addition to aftermarket goodies. It would get slightly better than 20 mpg on the highway, IIRC, especially when barely loaded and no shell, but had no power going up hills (at least at highway speeds). Off-road was another story, she was an absolute goat. A ewe? (failed Dodge Ram joke...sorry)

Am currently looking for an 80 series TLC which Creeper (and others) has been helping me with info, etc. 

There are some great vehicles on this thread and we are fortunate to have so many varieties to choose from to meet our individual needs. :beer:


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## 04RSR32 (Feb 20, 2004)

onebadbug said:


> My 96 Cherokee 4.0 automatic just did 21.2 mpg on each leg of a 575 mile round trip. I was quite happy with that.


Is it stock? I get 15.5 maybe 16 on average.


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## Smoltz (Sep 6, 2002)

My 04 Tacoma DC (V6 Auto) definitely average over 20 straight highway. I was very close to 20 combined (75/25) over the summer when I was keeping track.

-Adam


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## Elliot (Aug 17, 2000)

VeeDub_L_U said:


> You have a 5th gen? How do you like it?
> 
> I'm a huge 4runner fanboy. My dad had a 87, 92, 95, 97, 99, and 2003 growing up. I've had a 2000 Limited w/rear diff lock, 2005 sport edition and now a 2007 Limited. I love how versatile they are. I had to give up my 2000 Limited because I needed more towing ability. Ideally I would have bought a 4th gen. with a V8 but they are so expensive new here, so I got a 5.7L Tundra. 13mpg wasn't very much fun so I got a 2005 V8 4runner that handled all my towing duties, but the 2007 with the self levelling rear and V8 is amazing. The new 4runner is nice looking and very capable but they without the v8 I have no interest at all. My next vehicle will either be the new Grand Cherokee or an EcoBoost F150.


I like it and the lack of V8 doesn't bother me at all. If you look at the numbers it up on HP and only lost 12ft*lb on the torque side over the 4th gen V8. Towing is down slightly but if you were towing anywhere near the limit anyway you might be better served looking at a bigger SUV/truck anyway. The 5th gen is a little low rent compared to the 4th (no LED tails, more hard plastic, possibly even thinner sheet metal) but it's significantly bigger inside and I just don't fit well in a 4th (6'4" with broad shoulders). I bought a Limited rather than a Trail Ed. because I value my marriage and the creature comforts were important. If I was doing serious offroading I'd have the thing so far modded anyway that it wouldn't matter how it started life. The biggest "issue" I have is that the Limited only has the 20" wheel option and I really, really want the 17"s from the Trail (or the SR5). Toytec has lifts available already that don't interfere with XREAS and you're starting to see more and more mods. I don't think you'll see much in the way of replacement bumpers anytime soon, though, since the whole front end would likely have to be replaced.

The truck drives like a... truck, but it is smooth and responsive on the road. Importantly for me, I can fit two rear-facing carseats in the second row (I bought one with only 2 rows, though you can get 3 if you like).

What else would you like to know?


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## 88Subi4x4 (Sep 24, 2010)

26 MPG 
with a EJ2.2 swap and 235/75 15s


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## gonkey (Jan 15, 2011)

this:










/thread


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## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

My BJ60 Cruiser does this all day long in the city or on the highway and its a "real" 4x4.


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## kweetech (Apr 20, 2001)

Smoltz said:


> My 04 Tacoma DC (V6 Auto) definitely average over 20 straight highway. I was very close to 20 combined (75/25) over the summer when I was keeping track.
> 
> -Adam


man, I dream of that kind of mileage..I can pull 17 on the hwy on a good day with my DC Taco


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## mlochab (May 29, 2010)

over 300,000 miles, never let us down, been on hundreds of offroads trips since 2001 in kenya/Tanzania/Uganda/ Sudan only thing we have changed since new are the brakes, and upgraded the suspension


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## JTI23 (Jul 21, 2010)

overby said:


> Every time I see a pic of your truck it makes me want one even more


^ every time i hear someone say this i want to punch them in the face and ceepersleeper, you are a idiot


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## Smoltz (Sep 6, 2002)

kweetech said:


> man, I dream of that kind of mileage..I can pull 17 on the hwy on a good day with my DC Taco


Ya know it's interesting, since this thread, I've been watching my mileage, probably doing 50\50 and I went up a size (diameter) on tires and with a more aggressive tire. Also been spending a bit of time in 4WD but I've barely been getting 17 as well. Hmmm.

-Adam


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## CreeperSleeper (May 29, 2003)

JTI23 said:


> ^ every time i hear someone say this i want to punch them in the face and ceepersleeper, you are a idiot


Duly noted LOL... Oh, and it's "CreeperSleeper".


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## wildcar (Dec 5, 2003)

CreeperSleeper said:


> You guys are funny... To me a real 4x4 has to have some key equiptment: a real transfer case (not an AWD case with low range), a real frame (not unibody), axles that will hold up to the strain of off-road (IFS isn't a bad thing, though I wont wheel a rig with IFS. I've done that before and they don't hold up to what I do.)
> 
> All of the rigs posted in this thread before my post was missing at least one of those. I can go blow for blow with you guys in regards to capability but what would that prove? If you want to prove me wrong, come wheel with me.
> 
> Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk


 the only thing you make no sense on is the no unibody rule, so basically your excluding some of the best off road vehicles someone can buy for a decent price. XJ's, Land cruisers, and 4 runners to name a few. all can be had at amazing prices and are extremely good off road with minimal mods that are cheap to buy. hell you can even build lift kits from junk yard parts of other trucks. the uni body is as strong as most framed trucks if not better in some cases and can be strenghtened if needed. and comparing a newer $30,000+ truck to an XJ is a bad case for and argument, it just proves how good a deal it is to wheel a XJ,cruiser , runner instead of a full size truck. 
And lets not start on how the hell are you gonna fit a full size on some trails that one of the ones i mentioned will walk right through with no problem. And lets not bring up your break over angle on a 20+ foot long full size.


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## Trike Kid (Sep 28, 2008)

First of all Creeper Sleeper doesn't wheel that Dodge, he tows his wheeler with it. But, for building a cheap wheeler, a 3/4 ton or 1 ton fullsize is actually a great place to start, you just have to not give a damn about the body, or better yet, get rid of most of it. My Samurai is going to end up on full width axles by the time I'm done, and it'll still fit pretty much wherever I feel like making it fit. 

Of course since you brought up a fruity term like "break over angle" you're probably the type that is afraid to rub a tree unless you have some dorky "armor" on every inch of your rig. 

Land Cruisers and 4-Runners have frames, they're not a unibody CAR like a Cherokee is.


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## CreeperSleeper (May 29, 2003)

wildcar said:


> the only thing you make no sense on is the no unibody rule, so basically your excluding some of the best off road vehicles someone can buy for a decent price. XJ's, Land cruisers, and 4 runners to name a few. all can be had at amazing prices and are extremely good off road with minimal mods that are cheap to buy. hell you can even build lift kits from junk yard parts of other trucks. the uni body is as strong as most framed trucks if not better in some cases and can be strenghtened if needed. and comparing a newer $30,000+ truck to an XJ is a bad case for and argument, it just proves how good a deal it is to wheel a XJ,cruiser , runner instead of a full size truck.
> And lets not start on how the hell are you gonna fit a full size on some trails that one of the ones i mentioned will walk right through with no problem. And lets not bring up your break over angle on a 20+ foot long full size.


 As stated, 4Runner and Land Cruisers have frames. The reason why unibodies don't work well off road is they will eventually fatigue and break. Try taking a piece of metal, grab at opposite ends and bend it back and forth. Eventually it will break. XJ's are cheap to buy because they are cheaply made. If you wheel one hard, it will start cracking the unibody. Period. That is why I don't consider them a real 4x4. They will not hold up in the long run.

As for wheeling the Dodge, I wouldn't know. The most it sees is a dirt road with a trailer behind it. Also as stated, I wheel a Land Cruiser. I have also wheeled 4Runners, Toyota pickups, a TJ, a couple CJ5's, a J20 and a couple full sized Chevys (just for the record). Anytime you would like to show me how well your budget built XJ wheels, let me know. I will bring a few extra straps and go with you.

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk


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