# "Please Start Engine" problem,and Triangle light indication ON



## Ekremsky (Sep 8, 2010)

Hi all,I am a new VW 2004 4.2 Phaeton owner,since I bought this car 2 monts ago,I am experiencing very strange problems.Even I bought new VCDC cable from Ross Tech,for Fault Codes cleaning...The biggest promlem I have is the "Tiangle indication light" light : 

 

I read all the threads here regarding this problem: 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?2238013 
Even the car is turned off,in the morning when I turn on the ignition key the message appearslease start the engine and somethin:"Suspension Gearshop fault". 

I changed the left battery with brand new,as I saw the battery controller is revision "C"... 
So here are the fault codes I read this morning with VCDC: 

Monday,20,September,2010,08:49:23:40809 
VCDS Version: Release 10.6.1 

Address 71: Battery Charger Labels: 3D0-915-181.lbl 
Control Module Part Number: 3D0 915 181 C 
Component and/or Version: Batteriemanagement 2700 
Software Coding: 
Work Shop Code: WSC 00000 000 00000 
VCID: 234EF2E29BA7 
2 Faults Found: 

00085 - Starter Battery Switch-Over Relay (J580) 
011 - Open Circuit - Intermittent 
00086 - Parallel Battery Connection Relay (J581) 
011 - Open Circuit - Intermittent 


Monday,20,September,2010,08:50:31:40809 
VCDS Version: Release 10.6.1 

Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 3D0-614-517.lbl 
Control Module Part Number: 3D0 614 517 R 
Component and/or Version: ESP 5.7 allrad H33 0043 
Software Coding: 0008376 
Work Shop Code: WSC 70084 000 00000 
VCID: 316208AAD15B 
1 Fault Found: 

18265 - Load Signal: Error Message from ECU 
P1857 - 000 - - 


Monday,20,September,2010,08:52:05:40809 
VCDS Version: Release 10.6.1 

Address 01: Engine Labels: None 
Control Module Part Number: 4D0 907 560 CQ HW: 8E0 907 560 
Component and/or Version: 4.2L V8/5V G 0040 
Software Coding: 0011873 
Work Shop Code: WSC 66565 257 00032 
VCID: 77F6F6B27FBF 
6 Faults Found: 

17538 - Fuel Trim; Bank 2 (Mult): System too Lean 
P1130 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded - Intermittent - MIL ON 
17536 - Fuel Trim; Bank 1 (Mult): System too Lean 
P1128 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded - Intermittent - MIL ON 
17417 - Mass Air Flow Sensor 1/2: Implausible Signal from Load Calculation 
P1009 - 008 - Implausible Signal 
17417 - Mass Air Flow Sensor 1/2: Implausible Signal from Load Calculation 
P1009 - 008 - Implausible Signal 
17547 - Fuel Trim: Bank 2 (Add): System too Rich 
P1139 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded 
17545 - Fuel Trim: Bank 1 (Add): System too Rich 
P1137 - 002 - Lower Limit Exceeded 

Readiness: 0000 1001 

Also I purchased new Mass Air Flow sensor,for the two battery relays I don't know must I purchase them too(even the VW services I went here in Bulgaria can't find the real problem).


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hello, and welcome to the forum. 

I'll try to give you a little bit of help sorting out your fault codes, not based on an expert knowledge of the individual codes, but based on a "prioritizing and grouping" strategy when evaluating fault codes. 

You have listed codes from three different controllers. So, let's begin with the 'big overview': 

*1)* The two codes from the battery management controller (controller 71) both come with the tag "intermittent". Intermittent means that the problem existed at some time in the past, but was not actually present at the time you did the diagnostic scan. 

Intermittent codes can sometimes be very useful for diagnosing problems, and other times (most of the time) they are distractions that can lead you down the wrong path. So, concerning these two codes, make note that they appeared - in other words, save the diagnostic printout - and then clear the fault codes and do not take any further action unless they appear again. It is entirely possible that at some point in the past, a fuse was removed momentarily, or an electrical connector was disconnected momentarily, and this caused the fault code to be reported. 

*2)* The fault code reported by the ABS controller (controller 03) is entirely a consequence of other problems reported by the engine controller (controller 01). In other words, the ABS controller is saying "hey, I can't do my job correctly here because another controller that I depend on is reporting a fault". 

This means that for the moment, you should not direct any of your attention to the ABS controller, instead, you should focus your efforts on solving the problems reported by the engine controller (controller 01). Once controller 01 is trouble-free, you will be able to clear the fault code in controller 03 and it will not return. 

*3)* Finally, concerning controller 01 (the engine controller) - I would know what to do about these codes if your car ran on conventional gasoline (benzine), but you indicate in your profile that your car runs on LPG (liquid petroleum gas). The characteristics of LPG are different to those of gasoline, and the engine controller in the car is programmed to expect combustion characteristics (ratio of fuel to air, calorific value of fuel, emissions characteristics of combustion products, etc.) for gasoline. 

I am not familiar with LPG conversions. I don't know if the same engine controller is used when an LPG conversion is done, or if the engine controller 'chip' needs to be reprogrammed or not. I suggest you take your car to someone who is very familiar with LPG conversions (not necessarily Phaetons). The 4.2 engine is a common engine in the VW/Audi family, perhaps you could look for someone who has experience with an Audi 4.2 engine that has been converted to run on LPG. 

Clearly, what the codes are saying is that the operating characteristics of the engine are not within the parameters set out in the ECU (engine control unit) normal ranges. Hence the engine is saying that the the air/fuel mixture is too rich (this condition was present at the time you did the scan - note that there is no 'intermittent' reference attached to it), then again, some time in the past this same mixture was too lean (note the intermittent reference on these two faults), and that the results of the calculation of engine load - based on air flow rates measured by the MAF (mass airflow sensor) are out of the acceptable range (a logical consequence of the 'too rich' fault). 

I hope this information helps you. 

Michael


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## Ekremsky (Sep 8, 2010)

*Please Start Engine" problem,and Triangle light indication ON*

Thanks for your answer Michael, 

I really didn't know about that "Intermittent" message,I tried to figure out the faults and this "Please Start Engine" problem myself,but I go to nowhere...The LPG system is installed in Germany,"Prince" brand,and as I can see it has own Controller,that somehow is connected to the main Controller of the car.But when I drive the car with normal gasoline option, this fault(the triangle) appears again...May be the Mass Air Flow sensors cause the problem... 
And another thing I notise is when I drive In Sport "S" gear,the car presses the brakes itself,in the "D" gear doesn't ? 
:banghead: 

Ekremsky


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

Ekremski, 
As you point out, an LPG conversion includes a separate engine management controller that interacts with the original one. Which controller takes over when usually is determined by one of two regulators: 

1) a manual switch installed after market somewhere on your dashboard. Often this is a rotary switch with two or more LEDs depicting how much LPG is left in the tank and which fuel is currently being tapped. 

2) a sensor or solenoid which automatically switches to gasoline when starting (especially in cold weather) or when the LPG tank is almost empty. 

Both regulators are typically always present in an LPG conversion. Besides selecting the fuel source, I believe each regulator also selects the appropriate ECU, gasoline or liquid gas. I suspect that the automatic sensor or solenoid (#2 above) is malfunctioning not in the sense of selecting the wrong fuel source but rather in selecting the wrong engine management controller: as a result, you might be running on LPG with the gasoline ECU or viceversa, hence the "too lean / too rich" fault codes. 
Stefano


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

The "Please Start Engine" message means that the left side battery voltage has declined below the normal threshold, and the car is asking you to start the engine to recharge the battery. 

Michael


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## Ekremsky (Sep 8, 2010)

PanEuropean said:


> The "Please Start Engine" message means that the left side battery voltage has declined below the normal threshold, and the car is asking you to start the engine to recharge the battery.
> 
> Michael


 Yes,I replaced the left side battery with a new one 1 week ago,but the problem persists every morning and all the settings are reset,as far as the car is locked in the evening and nothing is working inside,may be it is the Battery Controller causing this problem(even it is revision "C") or the paralel switch relay beside it,don't know. 

Ekremsky


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

Have you checked the voltage of the new battery? What does the voltmeter on the dash read when you turn the ignition on? 

Harry


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## Ekremsky (Sep 8, 2010)

Prince Ludwig said:


> Have you checked the voltage of the new battery? What does the voltmeter on the dash read when you turn the ignition on?
> 
> Harry


 On the dash nothing works until I start the engine,it only says "Please start the engine" ,and after that reads 13.8 V near 14 V. 
After that I drive the car all day without problems,this happens only in the morning,when car stays off more than 10-12 hours...


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

Have you tried connecting the battery to a overnight charger? Make sure you use on that has a setting for AGM batteries (if that's what you replaced the left hand battery with). 

Harry


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## Ekremsky (Sep 8, 2010)

Prince Ludwig said:


> Make sure you use on that has a setting for AGM batteries
> 
> Harry


 Thanks for your answers Harry ,but couldn't understand that,what kind of settings?


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

Absorbed Glass Matting (AGM) batteries require a certain charging cycle to prevent degradation of the electrolyte. Most "smart" chargers will have a mode for AGM batteries. 

Harry


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## Ekremsky (Sep 8, 2010)

OK,thanks,I think I understand now..., 
I will put the charger tonight,and as far I can see my generator is not charging well,the voltmeter on the dash shows 13.5,also when I measured with voltmeter shows 13.6 volts,and I think it is not enough to full recharge the battery,I have a friend with Phaeton,that shows 14.2 volts on the dash,tomorrow I will go to the service for a generator test... 

Ekremsky


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Ekremsky: 

We have a really good post here that discusses battery chargers: Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton . 

Be aware that if you leave the ignition on for more than about 10 minutes without running the engine, you are going to encounter battery discharge problems. 

Michael


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## Ekremsky (Sep 8, 2010)

PanEuropean said:


> Ekremsky:
> 
> We have a really good post here that discusses battery chargers: Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton .
> 
> ...


 
Yes,thanks Michael,I read them,I think the problem appear from there:when I bought the car I didn't have such problems,after 2 weeks I left the car in a local service for a regular maintain,may be there the car is left more than 10 mins with ignition turned on... 
I will check tomorrow the generator charge,and will make a recharge with battery charger overnight and will see if the problem persists. 

Ekremsky


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Ah... that sounds like it is quite probably the cause of your problem (the battery becoming discharged while the vehicle was in for service, because the technician did not realize that the battery would discharge if the engine was not started). 

So, here are some general guidelines for you: 

1) Do get a battery charger that is suitable for the AGM batteries - it should not cost you more than 50 Euro, maximum - and occasionally charge the left battery. This will save you a great deal of headaches. The right battery does not need attention because it is only used for engine cranking. 

2) Be aware that if you leave the ignition on for more than about 10 minutes without running the engine, you are going to deplete the (left) battery. The car has a lot of electrical components and puts quite a large demand on the battery when the engine is not running. 

3) Batteries only last 5 years. You might get 7 years out of the right battery (starter battery), but after 5 years, the left battery is due for replacement. 

4) When you replace the left battery, be sure to use the exact VW specification original equipment battery. It is expensive, but there is a reason why VW used that specific type of battery on the left side. 

5) Remember that the two terminals under the hood are only used for jump-starting, you cannot charge a battery from them. To charge the battery, you have to hook up directly to the battery terminals. 

6) "Please Start Engine" means "left battery has low voltage" - it is as simple as that. 

7) It is normal that the left battery will deplete if the car is not used (started) for 3 to 4 weeks or longer. In such cases, you just charge it overnight and the problem is solved. 

8) If the left battery discharges, you will get a whole bunch of fault codes from other controllers. These are all a consequence of the low voltage, they can be disregarded. Just clear all the fault codes then re-scan the car with the engine running. In particular, "Suspension Fault - Workshop" is a common message if the left battery is low. In this case, there is nothing wrong with the suspension, the problem is low voltage to the suspension controller. 

Michael


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

Just as addemdum to Michael's post, when using a smart charger on my Phaeton's battery, I found that the battery didn't fully charge unless it was disconnected from the car. This may just have been a quirk of the charger I got (a Ring RSC16) but it may be worth doing the same with your car (it's not as if you'll generate that many more error codes!) 

Harry


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## adamkodish (Mar 5, 2006)

Prince Ludwig said:


> Just as addemdum to Michael's post, when using a smart charger on my Phaeton's battery, I found that the battery didn't fully charge unless it was disconnected from the car. This may just have been a quirk of the charger I got (a Ring RSC16) but it may be worth doing the same with your car (it's not as if you'll generate that many more error codes!)
> 
> Harry


 I get the same behaviour as Harry, with both a RSC16 and a CTEK XS3600, with the RSC16 seeming to do a better job than the XS3600.

Adam


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## Ekremsky (Sep 8, 2010)

Hi,many thanks to all for the great help!!! 

Firstly I will buy one from these chargers  
Second I will go to service to check up the generator why it shows 13.5 volts! 

I hope these problem will go away! 

Regards, 
Ekremsky


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## Mogens (May 9, 2010)

Hi, I'm certainly not as qualified or experienced as the "oracles" of this forum, but I've had the same issues that you've had and replaced my utility battery. This resolved all the problems for me.

I think your charging capacity while the engine is running is always between 13.5 and 14 volts ... should be fine.

However, as I know it is important that you use the correct capacity and type of battery (you don't write which one you have, so better double check) .... and, the most important, check the voltage on the battery itself (with the engine off). If the voltage comes below 12.2 the Phaeton starts a prioritized shutdown of systems which consumes battery power .... and the result .... well, that's possibly what you're seeing now.

So, if I was you, before going out to buy any chargers etc., check with a simple voltmeter if the battery output with the engine off is higher than 12.2 volts. When I changed mine, it showed 12 volts exactly .... the new one I bought from VW for 450 USD (!!!) shows 12.9 volts.

Good luck!

Mogens


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

As a note, Usually state of charge voltages should be taken with the battery disconnected (no load).
Damon


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## PeterMills (Sep 1, 2006)

Adam/Harry,

When you say that the "battery didn't fully charge" do you mean as shown on the charger display or by some other test?

Using my CTEK (XS7000, slightly larger than the XS3600) I charge my LH battery around monthly through the winter. I have never disconnected the battery for this exercise and the CTEK has always got to full charge indication on its display after 12-24 hours, so I am puzzled by what you say. 


PETER M


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

The charger would say it was finished but the final voltage would always be lower than it was if the battery was disconnected during the charging process.

Harry


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## PeterMills (Sep 1, 2006)

Harry,

Thanks, now I understand. I have not yet graduated to a voltmeter, but now that my car is nearly 5 years old I think I will, so that I can keep an eye on the battery and anticipate its decline (between 5&7 years Michel suggests).

I went onto Amazon and entered voltmeter and was shown a confusing number all pretty economically priced. Have you, or has anyone else in the UK, got a good suggestion for a voltmeter/multimeter for general battery testing?

PETER M


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

I've got a couple of multimeters at home but for testing the car battery I just used the charger I bought - if you connect the leads to the battery without the charger plugged in it tells you the battery's voltage.

Harry


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## PeterMills (Sep 1, 2006)

Harry,

That is a good reason to get a Ring RSC16 rather than the CTEK.

I get the best value multimeter I can find (all suggestions welcome) I have often thought of getting one.

PETER M


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## Ekremsky (Sep 8, 2010)

opcorn: Today I went to service and they found the problem in the Parallel Switch Relay:


This relay switches between the two batteries,but in my case doesn't switchesn the Starter Battery shows 14.3 volts when car works,but in the Main Battery always shows 13,6 or 13,7 volts,and they said that it is not enough to fully charge the battery!Inside on the dash shows also 13,6 volts,but in my friends Phaeton shows 14,2 always (In VCDC the problem was in the parralel switch too:Open circuit).They said that they will open and try to repair the relay,if not new one will make job.


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## Jorgsphaeton (Sep 8, 2009)

What was the solution for the engine problem. I got the same problem, I hope you can help me.

Jorg


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