# "RD" hybrid G60 build running CIS-E



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Hello all.
I am adding a thread for my build in this forum as it seems I might find some CIS sympathetics here.
My build is at about 90% and I have some challenges.

History:
86 GTI Stock CIS-E (K Jet)

Added the mechanicals from the G60 and supercharged.
It runs.
It over fuels due to the excess of metered air that leaves through the bypass (dump) in the Corrado T/B
I have been trying to find an arrangment that will keep the FPR from overfueling.
I recently did a system relocation overhaul from the stock draw through setup (FPR, G60, I/C, T/B)
It did not work as well as I hoped (G60, T/B, I/C, FPR) and ended up surging and not holding an idle. And A/F was ~12:1.

I moved the T/B back to the manifold and it runs but runs way too rich due to excess measured air that dumps at the T/B.

I plan on mounting a stock T/B and adding a BOV plumbed just outside the charger outlet.
If there is interest I can post pictures or you can check these out http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5613963-G60-CIS-E-Is-it-possible
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5211847-CIS-E-G-Lader

I am looking for tips on DPR or TPS tuning to dial out or eliminate the sensor plate overtravel I am getting from the forced induction. If I did not care about economy (I get ~24MPG) I could just leave it alone, but this build is now a personal challenge for me to finish what I set out to do, supercharge on CIS-E. To date I have not found any similar builds, so if I can do it, maybe others can referrence it for themselves.

Thanks


----------



## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

you need to dump the return air back into the s/c intake...

if the bypass air is just leaving to the atmosphere, it will run pig rich...


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

It will on digifant I
and does on a draw through setup CIS but not on a blow through like mine dumping pre FPR.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Thanks for the reply


----------



## ziddey (Apr 16, 2006)

Now we're talking. I know some people have blow-through setups with MAFs, but I don't know how well that'd work with CIS.

Is there a reason you're not keeping the CIS metering at the front end of things?


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

ziddey said:


> Now we're talking. I know some people have blow-through setups with MAFs, but I don't know how well that'd work with CIS.
> 
> Is there a reason you're not keeping the CIS metering at the front end of things?


Blow through dumping post MAF will run rich, much like false air metering in CIS.
I Like your question, and I think I can say I have the answer.

I already tried it, and I got the same condition as blow through MAF dump pre T/B. When I dumped to atmosphere, runnnig the FPR ahead of the G60, My Innovate Wideband 02 pegged ~9:1 A/F. Tweaking the DPR, TPS and Mixture screw I still had at best about 10.5:1. when I ran dump to charger inlet (recirc), I had tuneable performance, Idle ~13:1 WOT 15:1 then settleing in at 12.5:1. I did not like the crusing A/F of ~11:1.
The good news, CIS-(E) can deliver the fuel, the bad, a draw through CIS-(E) sucks and economy was ~23 MPG

I did some massive relocation of the CIS-E system and tried a few iterations. (see threads)

1. Air Filter, G60, T/B-Dump, I/C, FPR, Result- A/F ~13:1, but engine surged horribly and all rubber collapsed under vacuum (had to fab aluminum equivalents)

2. Air Filter, G60, I/C, FPR, G60 T/B-Dump Result- A/F ~12:1, lean stumble approaching WOT, No tune-abilty, Almost back to draw through conditions

3. Air Filter, G60, Dual BOV's Dump, I/C, FPR, 8V T/B Result A/F ~12-14:1 less lean stumble, some tune-ability, still fine tuning and need to fab a couple lines hookups for vacuum/boost pre T/B

Conclusion, I am almost there, a working, tune-able, G60 on CIS-E blow through setup.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

_Is there a reason you're not keeping the CIS metering at the front end of things?_ 

Because this only would work in a turbo application. Supercharging CIS-(E) is another animal, and I have not seen anyone do it to a VW.
First..


----------



## Glegor (Mar 31, 2008)

nbvwfan said:


> _Is there a reason you're not keeping the CIS metering at the front end of things?_
> 
> Because this only would work in a turbo application. Supercharging CIS-(E) is another animal, and I have not seen anyone do it to a VW.
> First..


CIS isnt made to be blown thru tho, its made to be sucked thru..

put your fuel dizzy/maf where it should be, and you will be golden..

boost is boost, no matter if its super or turbo boost...


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

I had it in the orignal location and it "sucked" A/F consistently at ~12.5:1 at idle and dropping to ~11:1 at mid and WOT.
Tuning to the DPR and TPS did not affect this that much (CIS-E).
I moved the FPR ahead of the T/B so that the measured air was not air + dump. 
It improved the tuneablilty but caused surging and a flat A/F of ~13:1 so I went with a 8V T/B in stock location and tried BOV's ahead of the I/C. That eliminated surging and helped tuning.

But you are incorrect, supercharging is different that turbo charging. While the pressure may be on the same scale, the way it is managed and how the engine pumps it is not the same. Then you have at idle boost excess. Turbo's don't have to worry about this, so a suck though is golden, but when you have recirculation or boost waste you have to do something with it ahead of the FPR. 
If I had not tried blow through I would have no case. At this point I have done this per the approaches in Corki Bells' book and the theory is proving itself correct.
Have you supercharged on CIS. What experience do you have to give this input. Not to start a diatribe, just your input seems kindof direct.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Anybody know the voltage range for the DPR on CIS-E.
I have not seen it in Bently, but wanted to know if it is puslished. I know it has the DPR voltmeter mah test ~5mah bounce. 
Also anyone ever patched in a MAP to signal the DPR to lean on vacuum and richen under load/boost?
That is what I am trying to do this weekend.
I have a Hobbs switch but also bought a 3 bar MAP that ideally want to use for boost A/F control by a overiden DPR current.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

I measured it last night.
It starts at about 7-8V and drops, with temperature to about 4-5V.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Fooled with the Mixture and TPS
Changed out the Mercedes injectors for my originals
Will tune some more this weekend
Wetsanding done
Compounding done
As it sat Sunday


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

No picture updates.
Worked on the miss and stumble.
Went in circles, but I think I found the issue. * My fuel meter is not supplying equal volume of fuel, I have three ports flowing 625-650 ml in 3 minutes at full bore and one port flowing 550ml, this is outside of the standard deviation of the 10% per injector volume tests. *I had thought it was the injectors, it is not, good thing is, out of 12, I have about 10 known good injectors. Bad thing is I will have to split the fuel meter apart and find the one slit that has ethanol crud build up.
Not happy about that but at least I have detirmined the cause of the inconsistent A/F ratio.
More updates later.

Sanding/refinishing quantum snowflakes, toss up between going Alpine white for the relief pattern or Tornado red. Anybody have an opinion on painting this color scheme instead the OEM (carbonite) black?


----------



## Nick Boudin (Jan 5, 2012)

I want pictures of under the hood! :beer::beer::beer:


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

I posted some pictures of under the hood, but I think in another post forum location.
Here are some of the near final layout.


----------



## Mark0ne (May 19, 2012)

That intake "boot" is pretty awesome. :thumbup:


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Thanks,
the "Snake Head" had to go when I was trying to put the T/B ahead of the Fuel Distributor. Even with all the ribbing, they are not rated for 30 inches of vacuum. It literally sucked into the sensor plate cavity at idle. I would not need it now due to moving the T/B back to the manifold to eliminate surging but once I made it I just let it be. I have done too much fabricating and relocation to see the same little issues.
At least next go around I have a base to build from and about 40 hours TIG practice time so it all will be easier when I build my Eaton 16V 84 GTI on CIS-E, and my son and I build his 83 Turbo 8V CIS Basic beast.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Just thought of something and in a search I saw no results. Anyone ever thought of converting individual CIS lines to a common rail approach? As in all lines going to a manifold and then out to a fuel rail with CIS injectors in series. This would equalize flow to all injectors and eliminate lean volume delivery and dirty metering head flow issues.

Can it be done?
I think so.
Only drawback/challenge would be the injector spacing and fuel rail design and line costs.
Might try this at some point.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

More and more circles.
Pulled the inectors again volume tested, and tweaked the fuel distributor individual ports to flow the injectors to ~8% SD and ~10% variance.
Thought that would solve it all. It did not, I continue have pretty heavy overfueling. Messed more with the signal to the DPR, that only made it richer, got as low as 8.5:1 Probed the wiring more and found the O2 wire I tucked was not sending the ECU any variable voltage. Fixed that, and it still overfuels ~11:1.
Pulled the DPR about 5 times adjusting it to leaner. Tried a DPR from a 09A. Bought a 3 bAR MAP sensor, wired it in like my Hobbs circuit and 100ma signal, thinking it would smooth out the stumble, it seems to, but the Fuel distributor is just not designed to move relative to volume under boost.
Maybe another day will uncover something I have not tried.
about ready to pull it all out and buy a lugtronic. Not what I wanted to end up doing, but I beleive I am pretty close to saying CIS-E cannot run supercharged. Not drawthrough, not blowthru, not hybrid.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

More efforts to troubleshoot and tune out the off idle stumble under load.
It is better but not right.
In case anyone cares to know, there are ways to adjust the meter of the fuel distributor. 
The DPR can be adjusted to effect upper and lower volume under demand load. The individual ports can be backed out (to richen) but after opening one of my spare distributors up I found that they equalize each other by cross ports, so this tune is probably moot except to adjust/calibrate out a bad line or partially clogged slit.
For the DPR, I found after 12 iterations starting with 1/2 turn from bottoming out, I got mine to run ~12:1 at WOT under boost and only leaning to about 13:1at as high as 10 PSI. I have left it there for now. I set the plunger to meter distance to 19mm according to the tip in the VW watercooled performance handbook (good book BTW). This helped an off idle rich condition.
I pulled some injectors from my quantum Syncro and soaked them overnight in MEK. I spray tested them and installed them with air shrouds and ran the airshroud line to just after the intercooler. I had to adjust the idle air screw to get it to not race. but the air shrouds seemed to help.
I pulled these injectors and volume tested them to rule out a lean cylinder. All were better than I have had since last post. At full bore fuel pressure, I measure 640cc,630cc,625cc, and 630cc in 3 minutes. This seems to rule the fuel distributor delivery, volume flow rate, and spray pattern out of the equation.
I pulled the distributor which was new a month ago, all the contacts were carboned. I thought I had found the issue. After cleaning I took it out, still no significant change.
I am pretty stumped. I am tired of trying to eliminate this issue, but I am starting to feel it is caused by the blow through setup. While it is good for dump and volume air to fuel metering, it does not seem to respond to vacuum to boost sweeps. I thought I could wire in a MAP signal, but I cannot seem to find a tap that it would be useful.
Anyone know if I can wire it into the ECU to effect the timing and DPR maps, or am I just pioneering something no one has tried nor cares about.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Got a new Distributor and put it in, though it was from MPGAUTO.com and I had to index it 90 degrees before I got the car running. It did not improve anything, in fact, the shaft was bent, and on my test drive I had to turn around due to distributor timing walk. I could hardly believe it, but in about a 1/4 mile it would go from advanced to full retard and would bog to a crawl. 
I pulled it, asked for and RMA, and learned my lesson. My old one went back in and works just fine. 
Sunday, after I had pulled my QSW fuel distributor I started fabricating another air plenum to make the system draw through once again. 
Hated the idea of it having to go pretty much back to where I was in September, but I have exhausted the iterations of a blow through design. I have determined the FD cannot reliably measure volume while under negative to positive pressure changes, it seems the pressure head causes spikes in the metering from sensor plate flutter. I will be sticking with the things that worked though, Dual BOV's and MK2 T/B. 

I know, everyone will chime in now and say I told you so, but I can say to them, I showed you so.. 
Pics of the plenum will be coming soon.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*12-03-2012 Updates*

Did some more work last night on the drawthru airbox. 
Cutout the window for the quantum and line drilled for the bolt pattern. Welded in some fo the bosses to mount it. Mocked up fitting and will be much more room to work with than the last setup. 
Toying with the arrangement for the air filter. I am planning on tucking it inside the fender and frame rail area. It will be a good cold air setup, only drawback will be filter cleaning will require removing the fender liner. 

Was thinking (second guessing) on the way to work today. I have my stock ECU plumbed to the intake manifold. Contemplating if my off idle stumble is due to K Jet not knowing what to do with boost, or actually if it goes to retard when above Atmospheric (14.6PSI). This might be why I could never get it revving right at mid to WOT, and it rarely went to redline on WOT. The engine ignition was/is getting lost and firing way late. I plan on trying a one way vacuum adapter (the little blue ones) plumbed such that the ECU will only see full vacuum to atmospheric pressure. 
Maybe that will fix my blow thru issues. 

Here are a couple pic's from last nights effort. 




























And one of the snowflakes I am trying to restore.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

Thanks to Nothing Leaves Stock for the tips and the Haltech Fuel Management hookup. 
Looking forward to finally getting this thing running right. 
Look for updates on the continued fabrication and progress this weekend when I plumb in the 5 Cylinder Fuel Distributor.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

One shot
Got the main I/C to T/B fabricated.
Have to add the ISV port, and a 5th injector bung, but the hard sizing work is done.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*For CIS interest*

I have posted my updates on the other two threads, but had not for a while in this forum so here is a snapshot of it nearly together from the last overhaul
Overall nearly reassembled











Polished the ISV for kicks











And swapped in the old worked fuel distributor, polished it a bit after welding on some ears for mounting the turtle shell.


----------



## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

Tres Cool! 

I was going say, blow through CIS? It doesn't work that way. But I see you figured that all out. If you run out of fuel with the VW unit, go to a Audi or Volvo CIS unit, which will be able to measure more CFM of air before it maxes out. Turbo cars also have a boost enrichment module you can add in. There is also a shim trick with the regulator on K-Jet cars, but you probably already know this. 

Interesting to see somebody dabblying with a boosted K-Jet setup. Back in the day, locals here used to put together literal "junkyard special" street racers. Start with low compression GX and MZ 8v, Then hit up the wreckers and pick up a big valve GTI head (RD), and a turbo and manifold off a 1.6TD, A volvo 240 or Audi K-Jet unit (you can just plug the one fuel ports) and with some work you can mount the turbo manifold upside down on the 8v head. It was a funny time. The engines might of only made 150-160hp on the 10psi wastegate spring, but in Rabbits and base model Westy golfs, they beat up on the thoroughbred Integra GSR and Preulde SRV of the time. 

This thread brought back some good memories. :thumbup::thumbup::beer:


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

That's cool to hear, and I am glad you got a kick out of seeing what I have been doing. 
I knew that some elements of this harken back to the 80's-90's when CIS being exploited. 
I had a few say go standalone, but what I was after was doing what may have been done back then, and learn along the way, with the hopes to eventually have something that held its own yet kept the old technology in place, and find some enthusiasts that remembered it done way back when. 
Seems like I found someone who can relate. In hindsight I think I would have been better off doing a CIS Basic and WUR setup, but I wanted to keep the stock KE-Jet and see what was possible. 
I don't have it right, but I am getting close. 

Thanks for the reply.


----------



## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

I just read what you were talking about with common rail, and basically cis is already that. Its a constant batch fire system that increases fuel with the meter flap coming up. Its really a very basic step up from a carbruetor. 

But you probably have already figured that out by now. Evenif you Scrap the ke and go to a Volvo turbo system. But I doubt you will ever get this right on a supercharged motor. The g lader dumps a a lot of air at idle and part throttle off boost. So that's all metered air and then dumped. 

The digifant 1 on the g60 is MAP based for that reason alone. Any MAF or AFM system is going g to have a fit and over fuel. If you think of it like a carb, your pulling air and fuel through it, and then throwing half the air away and keeping the fuel.


----------



## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

Have you tried a silenced style intake setup? 

Basically relocate your throttle body to in front of the charger, and just a straight through boot at the intake manifold. this will throttle the air before it ever goes through the charger. Then use cis unit as a suck through.(exactly how you have it now) Only the air metered will be the air used. However, I do know this is common on roots and lysholm type chargers, I'm not 100% sure how the glader will tolerate this.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

G60 Carat said:


> I just read what you were talking about with common rail, and basically cis is already that. Its a constant batch fire system that increases fuel with the meter flap coming up.
> 
> Have you tried a silenced style intake setup?
> 
> Basically relocate your throttle body to in front of the charger, and just a straight through boot at the intake manifold. this will throttle the air before it ever goes through the charger. Then use cis unit as a suck through.(exactly how you have it now) Only the air metered will be the air used. However, I do know this is common on roots and lysholm type chargers, I'm not 100% sure how the glader will tolerate this.


 I figured out the common rail idea after I opened one up. 
They are in fact common, but they also have individual metering calibration ports . I found this out when I had variance of 22% flow injector to injector. I tweaked each of my individual ports to get that to less than 2%  

for the other reply: 

Not exactly, and I have read up on this and it's use on fixed displacement blowers. The G Lader is "not exactly" fixed displacement but could be set up like this, though the concern would be the vacuum effect on parts normally designed to push air (seals, strips, scroll). 

I did a version of this in my blow thru setup. 
I located the throttle and dump ahead of the fuel meter. 
This worked but I experienced surging and collapsing tubes due to vacuum. 
I ditched it when I could not eliminate/minimize the surging. 

I have not tried T/B ahead of charger and a recirc, mostly because space is severely limited. It is a good idea to consider as that is similar to the Neuspeed setup and is how Mercedes does it. 
I could buy the Mini Cooper S vacuum diverter and shoe horn my T/B and try it, Thinking about it though, I think I would have a challenge getting diverter opening position geometry to match idle CFM. 
I am first going to try the 2.0 16V meter and affecting the sensor plate geometry. I am pretty confident I can improve on the ~12.5:1 idle A/F and minimize over-swing and the lean running at WOT. Once I am at a optimal point, I plan on hooking up the Haltech F5 and fine tuning the boost enrichment. 

The Glader is great at vacuuming air through the meter, so much so I run out of plate lift and pivot travel, even with the DPR pegged.


----------



## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

Have you tried a silenced style intake setup? 

Basically relocate your throttle body to in front of the charger, and just a straight through boot at the intake manifold. this will throttle the air before it ever goes through the charger. Then use cis unit as a suck through.(exactly how you have it now) Only the air metered will be the air used. However, I do know this is common on roots and lysholm type chargers, I'm not 100% sure how the glader will tolerate this.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

No new breakthroughs. Still have rich idle and some of the same prior issues, though not as pronounced. 
From my past post, I filed a sensor plate down, a little making a flat, to let some idle air by. While it works to lean it out (~13.5:1), I had to adjust the mixture screw at idle to eliminate a lean bounce, which put me right back to ~12:1. 
Scratch that theory... 

Tweaked the DPR ~1/2 turn CW and the lean stumble is almost gone, but A/F dropped to 11-13:1, and the idle does not settle around 850. It tends to run ~1100, then every so often, it drops, stumbles and cuts out. 
I think I have it pinpointed to the BOV's (DV's) fighting with the idle air screw and ISV. There are three items all doing similar things. I have run the car without the ISV, but I want to keep it for when I use A/C. No progress on that front. 

From some inputs from "alaincopter", I am going back to some of the basics in troubleshooting this. I hooked up my DPR voltmeter harness and checked "bounce". There is none. On my car, I don't have the plate/cone/plunger geometry matched to the CFM. This is why I am going to get a bigger meter. For the time being though, I settled on checking function of the DPR. At mid throttle the current goes positive (~5-10 ma), upon snapping the throttle shut, it goes negative (-0 ma). At idle (and rich), it is at 0 ma. 

I also swapped the ECU and Lambda control unit with a spare, no change, but I left it in as it is from a 16V. 

I tightened up the BOV's and my idle and A/F got better, boost recirc was a bit more stable. 

I was going to change the CAM but its getting colder and I am done for the day. 
I unpacked my stufff from ESC and found they still sold and shipped me the MINI S diverter Valve. 
Good news, I have another boost recirculation item to plumb; bad news, I have another boost recirculation item to plumb. (CIRCLES) 
It is not ideal for this, but I figure I can try it after the intercooler in a section I have some space by means of an intermediary pipe and one more coupler. I will be trying it out, but not as the MINI S runs it. I don't know if it will function any better than my dual BOV's, but its flow and volume will probably be better and that will drop the A/F. 

Guess I will update those sub'd with the progress. 
It should clean up some of the areas I now have little space to work in and eliminate the recirculation temperature that is on the high side. 

Thats enough for now, sorry I did not have any pictures, once it is warmer I will hit this again.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*1-27-2013 evening update*

Did some more pull and swap. 
This time I put the OEM Corrado T/B and Recirculation pipe back in. 
Ditched the BOV's and hooked it all back up. 
Surprise surprise, A/F is about 13.5:1, Idle is smooth, no surge, no off idle stumble, and after warmup everything up, the running manners are pretty good 
Only had to do a bit of leaning to get it around 14:1. 
This has come full circle, and I have a better appreciation for the design of the G Lader boost recirculation. I like how it regulates the intake charge to the point that up to about 1/3 throttle the engine is N/A. After that the boost is smoothly transitioned to the engine and PSI increase is fairly linear. 
Now that I have the meter dialed to deliver equal amounts of fuel to each injector it the CIS seems to respond well to this gradual transition. The irony is after all this I have pretty much the same setup as my first spin, though, now I have better piping and fittings that are less restrictive and cumbersome. 

Next up is to try and get the fuel pump to seal. Even with a new pump 60mm seal it still leaks. 
I am going to pull it and RTV the pump body to build up some of the housing around the seal interface. 
After that I am going to try and resolve the lack of heat. I think my heater core is clogged from coolant sitting when I started this all about two years ago. 
I Just want to get this on the road, but I have some little things I need to address first.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*2-1-2013 update*

Got this day before yesterday.










2.0 16V GLX fuel distributor.
I measured it and it has an extra 1/4" of sensor plate travel due to the longer plunger stroke.
Cone geometry is a single, steeper draft with the same overall outside diameter.
This will work better to eliminate the rich spot at part throttle.
I had tested another one of these meters and it flowed ~260 cc's per minute.
By Peter Tong calculations that is good for ~175HP (1 Liter-min/170HP)
This is without the DPR adjusting for more fuel, I think this is good for over 250HP with the proper fuel enrichment and DPR tune.

Downsides-
It's plunger is sticking and I think the internals need a bath in Seafoam before I do anything to it.
The question is, do I do the fab work to mount it to my Turtle shell or save it for my 16V build?
Now that I have mine running well enough to drive, I am on the fence. I may go ahead and do the work to it to improve it and pair it to my setup instead of saving it for later, partly because I am toying with the idea of a dual charger, dual FD setup on my 16V, wouldn't that be cool? Never saw one of them. :what:


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*2-9-2013 Happy progress update*

Well, I managed to beat the cold and do a few hours in the garage.
I attempted to fix the fuel reservior leak, managed to get it pretty much fixed, just need to pull the feed and change out the checkvalve washers.

I took the plunge and pulled out my "RD" cam. I swapped it for a stock G Lader cam and put everthing back together mining the cam caps and torquing them to 14 ft/lbs.
When I went to slip the timing belt back on I felt the intermediate shaft jump a couple teeth .
This was the case when I set about to fire it up. After fiddling with the position of the distributor I decided to pull it and swap it out for another used one since my orignal hall sender plug was cracked.
I got it in with the proper orientation and rotor lining up withthe notch in the housing. It fired right up.
Surprisingly, the idle was settled at right around 900, the A/F was better at ~13.5:1 and it rev'd much better with the surge eliminated. I took a timing light to it and it was great right around 5 BTDC. Left it alone and jumped in to drive it and warm it up. It is nearly good enoguh to not consider fooling with the mixture or DPR. 
The best part, pulling back in the driveway rolling in first, cracking the throttle not even to half throttle, the tires easily break loose. I did not believe it so I tried it again. I cannot beleive how much improved the power is with the zero overlap G Lader cam. It no longer surges with power after 3500, it has it from idle on up.
I am glad I decided to finally pulll and do the cam swap. It was easier than I anticipated and the results are well worth the trouble.

I plan on taking some video of it once I test it on open road.

More updates soon.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*CIS-E Haltech F5 update*

A little more progress today, though I had to fix our trailblazer fan clutch, replace the Vanagon's ATF, and do an oil change on the WRX.

I pulled the filed sensor plate and put in the OEM. I then tuned the DPR on the leaner side, about 1/2 turn CCW, and then fattened up the mixture to compensate. The goal was to lean out at idle and let the fuel distributor work like the motor is N/A. 
I dove in and finished my double banjo bolt and fed a fuel line to my 5th white top injector. Happily it does not leak at the injector hat. I have a weeping washer on the double banjo connection but I think that with some sanding and new washers it should seal. I broke out the Haltech F5 and wired it up for a mockup. It worked right away and with the factory settings of enrichment trigger at 0 PSI I already see the benefit. It was starting to get dark and getting too cold to keep at it, but glad again to have made some incremental progress.
Thanks again to *NothingLeavesStock* for the tips and the deal on the Haltech F5, well worth it.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*3-9-2013 Warmer weather updates*

Got some stuff done today.
I got started before it warmed up and installed new head unit, nothing fancy, just the basics with a USB port and headphone jack. I am happy with it even if it was a 65$ best buy pioneer base model.

Next up was the leaking fuel pump. I scored a fuel meter and pump and reservoir from another vortexer thumbup: MSamphier :thumbup. I managed to get the pump out and then cleaned it up and installed it in my reservoir. No more leaks and a nice high pitch whine while running.

Took the car out to return the pump I bought that was the wrong size  (53mm Python). The car runs pretty good, A/F at idle was ~14:1 and punched it would drop to 10:1 while in boost. The only thing bugging me is a stutter while on WOT. I think it is my meter not being up to task with the demand of fuel needed while the 5th injector is firing. I tried a couple things, but think it is down to a momentary pressure drop that settles to lower than optimal fuel pressure and probably poor spray patterns at the four CIS injectors. I will start working on the 2.0 fuel meter tomorrow to graft it into the system.

I wanted to address cooling/heat so I drained then flushed the cooling system in hopes it would help my heating issue. It did not, and I still had lukewarm air coming out the vents.

I decided to find then tear apart parts of the climate control to find where my vacuum leak was for the A/C controller. I had to pull the radio but eventually found the issue. My black line that feeds the climate control was blown off the line coming in from the engine. I replaced it with another feed and added my vacuum bottle chamber which I had taken out a while back. With a bunch of finessing I was able to get it all working.

Bummer, though, my A/C compressor high side line decided to loosen up so I have lost my charge of refrigerant . I will deal with that in a couple days.

I got everything cleaned up and put away but the amount of progress I had hoped for was a bit less than I had wanted.

The weather is supposed to be good tomorrow so I plan on hitting the meter and seeing if I can finally get the fuel delivery finished.

Any of those reading have any ideas/confirmation that the stumble while on WOT is a system pressure drop issue? I would like some confirmation if you care to share. The car runs pretty solid all the rest of the time, even to the point of almost driving this tomorrow and then to work this week. But I want the running manners and economy as good as I can get it before Sowo.

That's it for tonight.
:thumbup: thanks for reading.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*3-10-2013 80 mile trip update*

I got the GTI on the road for a 80 mile round trip to my folks for a visit.
It was delayed due to the AN3 fitting deciding it did not like rubbing up against my expansion tank.
I had to re terminate the line to solve the leak. The injector top decided to weep after I got that leak solved but I got it good enough to drive it. I will pop out the oring and replace it with a new one.
On the 40 mile trip out, the WOT poor performance was more pronounced but not enough cause to park it. I drove it out then tweaked the DPR 1/2 turn richer and adjusted the mixture to ~14:1.

I took my brother out for a test drive since he leaves for germany tonight.
He did a 0-60 test with me and the GTI scoots to 60 in ~6.5 seconds.
Not as fast as I thought but not bad considering the WOT stumble and nearly 30 year old components.
Boost is a solid 8 PSI, but it is hard to say 10 PSI, since I have to look down while WOT so estimating on the low end. 

I drove it home this way and I am happy to have gotten 80 miles on it to confirm some bugs are worked out. Not at 100%, but better than when I took it off the road in October.

My TO DO list is still pretty long in preparation for Sowo. I don't want to back out, but there is a lot I want to cover before doing a 500+ mile each way trip.

Install 2.0 fuel meter (need)
Add 2.25" flexpipe and ditch the socket ball (need)
I need to upgrade the exhaust or fix the hangers (want not need)
A/C will need to be charged (want not need)
Bay Tidy (want, but how)
Stereo finished (need)
Fuel failure proofed (need)
Shortlist the incidentals that could fail to take with me or do over the next several weeks. (need)
Smaller tires and a taller 5th (want)
HD Clutch (want)
Fix the mixer flap foam (want)
Sunroof seal R&R (need)
Doorcards (want)
Resolve the rattles (want, want, want)
Spot color sand (want)
final compound and wax (need)
Fender flares (want or TBD)
Red stripe bumper (want)
Toolkit packed (need)
Trans end cap replaced (need)
Oils and fluids change (want)
Re-install raintray (need)
Detail the rubber and remove the compound residue (want)
Install badging (want)
...
The list goes on and is daunting.
That's enough for now

to 60 in ..6.5 seconds... 
I will add a picture from today once it is uploaded.
Before paint ~September 2012










Today 3-10-2013
(EDIT: Also realized, my 8PSI is due to my BOV's set to open apparently at 8 PSI)


----------



## G60 Carat (May 14, 2004)

Still following this project :thumbup::thumbup:

That's a good 0-60 time. You won't go much faster 0-60 on street tires. I have a Gtech Pro-SS, and it's one of the better G style meters at that nonsense. And for the most part my best is a 5.9, but mostly 6.0 and 6.1's, it's hard to get any grip in 1st gear to get it out of the hole. That's with no spray, since you can't use any spray in the 1st or 2nd gear anyways.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

G60 Carat said:


> Still following this project :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> That's a good 0-60 time. You won't go much faster 0-60 on street tires. I have a Gtech Pro-SS, and it's one of the better G style meters at that nonsense. And for the most part my best is a 5.9, but mostly 6.0 and 6.1's, it's hard to get any grip in 1st gear to get it out of the hole. That's with no spray, since you can't use any spray in the 1st or 2nd gear anyways.


I agree.
I am targeting sub 6 seconds, but that is at the high side (5.9-6.1)
We did the test with a cell phone timer, and it was on the heavy side of 6.5, but it is a number I can gauge from the original "seat of the pants" grin gauge
I am already thinking what tires I can get in place of the skinny 195/65/14's and how to improve launch.
I am no drag racer, but all this is peaking my interest and I might dabble with it at some point.
Future plans would be to do a haldex AWD in the rabbit I will build, or if it fits, (doubtful) a longitudinal mounted G60-16V-G60 (twin charged) with a syncro from my QSW.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*3-16-2013 Updates*

I managed to get started on grafting in the 2.0 16V meter. 
Beforehand I did some measurements. It seems the pivot bearing sits about .100" deeper, although the plunger/pivot stroke is the same Also the Cone to sensor plate base is also about .100" deeper. Maybe that makes no sense, but it does confirm that the distributors are not interchangeable. 

I went ahead and welded on the same type of mounting ears I have two other times. 
Once that was done, I transferred over the lines and wired up my switch to trigger the fuel pump so I could do some flow/volume testing. 
I was disappointed to find that at full bore for three minutes this meter flowed less than my worked 8V unit (500cc vs 625cc). Before I worked in circles I did three more tests with the 3rd and 4th each turning the mixture screw in 1/2 turn to take up plunger free play. 
No change, but at least I knew the meter was consistent across all injectors with a variance of less than 3%. 

I put the injectors back in and hooked everything up. 
I am not going to say it runs better.. I cannot readily tell. 
What I see is my A/F seems more proportional to the actual airflow though. 
I drove it up and down the road to see if the stumble still persisted. 
I am not going to say it does or does not, again I could not tell. 

I guess my drive tomorrow will determine if this was an improvement, or just a waste of my time and money. For today though, one noteworthy improvement is apparent, it starts and idles a lot better. 

Tomorrow I will do my 80 mile trip and tweak the Haltech F5 as it might be a combination of that and today's efforts to get this right/right. 
For now, my guess is the taller cone and the more substantial internals (higher flow/plunger pressure) of the meter will improve the floating body principle of the draw through. 

I can also play with plunger stop depth to gain more stroke and slit height, though the DPR and the Lambda unit should be controlling that. 
My other 2.0 16V distributor, before I sold it, tested at about 800CC's each injector in 3 minutes with the plunger bottomed out. By Peter Tong's math (170HP/L/Minute) that is 181 HP without the DPR. 

Enough for now, I take it this is mostly me just documenting the work and hopeful progress. 
Maybe someone will find it useful someday. 
Will post again tomorrow.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

I will summarize. 
Took it out for my 80 mile run. Things were improved over last Sunday. Only a couple mild stumbles and several slips of the clutch in 4th and 5th. 
I got some gas at the end of my trip and pulling out, it acted up. 
Don't know what for, maybe it has some refueling system pressure issues. 
Drove it home. 
Decided to think it over and fix my heat. 
Found both flappers foamless and naked   
After a couple scrapes and cuts, I manged to get 1/8 PSA foam put over the majority of the culprits. 
Heat Finally  
That was enough to wrap it up. 
Reluctant to take it out on a workday, but it is pretty close to ready. 
I might fool with the manners tomorrow, but I will have to gauge based on the weather. 

Questions/comments/requests? 

It is a blast to drive even with a slipping OEM clutch, and stumble and just a detuned 8 PSI. 
Nothing compares to surprising the yuppie in the 735i or the unsuspecting tinted MK4. Puts a grin all the way to 80MPH


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*3-21-2013 Parts arrival updates*

Got some late model GTI Red Stripe doorcards in yesterday. They are much better than my early model chrome stripe and have the 6.5" speaker pockets. A good deal from a good vortexer, thanks 71camaro. :thumbup: 
Got my .76 ratio 5th gear sets from BrokeVW, great guy who was willing to exchange ideas and information in several back and forth emails. :thumbup: 
Now it's time to read up on the conversion in preparation for it to be done on my 4K and 9A (020's). 
Hoping to order the Stage 2+ clutch from Spec this weekend. 
Plans are to install it next weekend. 
Up next is priming for the sunroof seal R&R, and other incidentals. I got some input from a fuel meter rebuilding house that confirmed I might resolve the fuel pressure dip by moving the 5th injector line to the input feed instead of the return to FPR feed. Thanks to Jason, at kmipetrolinjection.co.uk :thumbup: Hoping to try that out tomorrow. 
More updates this weekend.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*3-24-2013 Updates*

Well,
I had three videos I shot, but they all sucked.
I will try and make this update less wordy.
Relocated the fifth injector feed to the inlet line. No significant change to running manners.
Installed late model door cards and sound deadening panels.
I went from 68 Db to 63Db at 65 MPH 
Played with the timing. Advancing it seemed to help everything, but also seemed to introduce some pinging. Filled it up and clocked 27.5 MPG which is a big improvement from my low 20's this fall.
I am looking into the ignition and what I can do to affect Boost retard as I think my stumble is due to the knock box retarding and N/A stock ECU timing maps.
Don't really know what I can do. There are no CIS-E ECU's that are boost capable.
Would it be good to source an MSD boost retard or am I pretty much at the point of 
a. Trying a dual port vacuum distributor
b. Reverting to CIS-Lambda
c. plunk down the cash and go standalone.

Thoughts anyone?


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

My other threads have the latest updates.
But here is a shot of a detail of what I got done today.
How does it look?


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

*5-5-2013 Picture Update*

Some pictures from today. 
I spare the essay.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

It's been a while since I updated this thread as most of the details are in the MK2 forum.
I've been daily driving this car for quite a while, but some highlights:

Managed to hit over 30 MPG on a couple tanks
Still running CIS-E
Stock pullied G-Lader consistently runs 10PSI (really 12 but due to cam timing its 10)
Updated the exhaust with a home-made 2.5" SST V-Band setup running a Vibrant resonator and Dynomax VT muffler
About to undertake conversion to twin screw
Just about refinished some beach weathered snowflakes.

Pictures of the progress on them.
Before, During, Nearly Finished









The set of 4 that I will paint the centers soon









I will try to keep this thread updated periodically.


----------



## nbvwfan (Aug 15, 2007)

It's been a while since I updated this thread as most of the details are in the MK2 forum.
I've been daily driving this car for quite a while, but some highlights:

Managed to hit over 30 MPG on a couple tanks
Still running CIS-E
Stock pullied G-Lader consistently runs 10PSI (really 12 but due to cam timing its 10)
Updated the exhaust with a home-made 2.5" SST V-Band setup running a Vibrant resonator and Dynomax VT muffler
About to undertake conversion to twin screw
Just about refinished some beach weathered snowflakes.

Pictures of the progress on them.
Before, During, Nearly Finished









The set of 4 that I will paint the centers soon


I will try to keep this thread updated periodically.


----------

