# what type of potential does the 1.8 8v have



## kiddkool69 (Dec 17, 2002)

i have a 86 scirocco 8v...do you think that it is possible to get the engine up to 160hp...has anyone done this??...what mods would be necessary...i already plan on rebuilding the engine, but i want to know everything i should buy before i start
thanks


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: what type of potential does the 1.8 8v have (kiddkool69)*

sure put a turbo on it, should make 160hp all day.


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## kiddkool69 (Dec 17, 2002)

*Re: what type of potential does the 1.8 8v have (mrkrad)*

don't want to turbo it...just want to squeeze all the power i can out of the little block
and wandering how much power others have been able to achieve


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## Schnell-Corrado (Feb 26, 2001)

*Re: what type of potential does the 1.8 8v have (kiddkool69)*

quote:[HR][/HR]just want to squeeze all the power i can out of the little block[HR][/HR]​yeah, use a turbo


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

*Re: what type of potential does the 1.8 8v have (kiddkool69)*

160 hp normally aspirated is probably a bit too much to ask out of a 1.8L-8v, a street driven one anyways. I've seen 1.8's in the higher 140's, that's with a fair bit of headwork, a big cam and twin side draft carbs. 
The law of diminishing returns applies here, 130hp is reasonably easy, 140hp is doable, 150hp is expensive and the amount of money you'd have to throw at it to get 10hp more on top of that is onerous. Also, past a certain point, drivability goes down rapidly as horsepower goes up.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: what type of potential does the 1.8 8v have (ABA Scirocco)*

I'm aiming for somewhere between 145 and 160 hp with my motor.. hoping i'll see 150+ but i know its tuff with CIS and a 1.8L
Heres whats done to the motor for my 83 GTI
11:1 compression
new once oversize german 10:1 pistons making it an 1800cc block
fully balanced bottom end <including flywheel/pully/pressureplate>
ARP Rod and Head bolts, new german bearings and gaskets
headwork in progress by A1Rocco
ported stock GTI intake, portmatched to largest gasket size, portmatched and knifeedged throttlebody
stage 1 headwork, unshroud valve seats, open up the flow to the intake/exhaust valves.. no combustion chamber polishing etc.
supersprint header into a 2.25" exhaust no cat and a sebring 2.5" muffler
Autotech high lift/rev springs
288 deg cam with 11.2 lift and 108.8 lobe centers
Kent Adjustable Cam gear
stock CIS-Lambda injection
Knock sensing ignition from a 16V
If it makes a solid 140-145hp and lots of torque i'm happy if it makes more i'll let you know. Once its rolling i'll be throwing the car on a dyno and finding out what all the work actually produces.
Keep in mind this is a fully balanced motor with an 8000rpm redline
I will be running 4 poly engine mounts and yes this is a daily driver.. its going to be my work car and an autoX car


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## dfinn (Apr 6, 2001)

*Re: what type of potential does the 1.8 8v have (CdnDub)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Keep in mind this is a fully balanced motor with an 8000rpm redline[HR][/HR]​but will it actually be making power that high?


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: what type of potential does the 1.8 8v have (dfinn)*

I dont know.. but i'll find out..
the 288 cam should make power up to at least 7500rpm.. all the 288's are slightly different.. this one is nearly identical to the TT 288 race cam
and they claim
Rough Idle 4000-7500 powerband and a 15-17 HP gain.. 
I likely wont rev to 8000rpm thats just where the redline is with the balanced bottom end and the high rev springs.. 
If it makes power to 7500 rpm and i miss a shift then at least i've got some buffer room. 
If i run the Kent Cam gear and back off the cam timing 2-3degree's to help idle my power may drop off sooner ie around 7200rpm instead of 7500 but thats ok. as long as the power is there somewhere.


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## kiddkool69 (Dec 17, 2002)

*aba scirocco*

what sort of power are you getting with your 2.O swap (what is the stock horsepower/torque and what are you shooting for)
staying away from turbo is the 2.0l aba 8v swap the cheapest way to get hp and torque above 140?
What cars had the 2.Ol aba 8v engine?


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## kiddkool69 (Dec 17, 2002)

*Re: aba scirocco (kiddkool69)*

how much will i have to spend to get my 1.8l 8v up to 130+
not that i want to do it but has anyone installed a turbo on the 1.8l 8v... what is neccessary to do this and what am i looking at spending


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## dfinn (Apr 6, 2001)

*Re: aba scirocco (kiddkool69)*

quote:[HR][/HR]staying away from turbo is the 2.0l aba 8v swap the cheapest way to get hp and torque above 140?[HR][/HR]​AFAIK, yes. But just adding the 2.0 will not get you there, it will still take alot of work and $$$.
quote:[HR][/HR]What cars had the 2.Ol aba 8v engine?[HR][/HR]​94 and up jettas, golfs and NBs.


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## A1Rocco (Oct 6, 2001)

*Re: what type of potential does the 1.8 8v have (kiddkool69)*

Remember that hp numbers are relative to volumetric efficiency or thruflow. The motor can be designed to produce a high amount of thruflow at relatively high rpm with a lot of orting and a big cam. Torque is relative to compression and displacement aswell as VE. The more you increase the thruflow there will be dimissing returns to the tiorque in the lower and mid range but it will be there higher up with the right cam. It's becomes a matter of putting the power where you want it in the rev range by choosing all the right combination of parts. For the street designing for good mid range torque still seems to be the norm in America, in Europe you will see more radical high rpm engines that use larger cams but those engines won't have the torque we are used to.


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## the governor (Jan 24, 2002)

*Re: what type of potential does the 1.8 8v have (Schnell-Corrado)*

I have ridden in a NA 1.8 8v that had cams, intake, exhaust, blah blah blah and it pulled hard and was a blast to ride in. I can only amagine how fun it would be to drive.


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## sidejam (Feb 24, 2001)

*Re: what type of potential does the 1.8 8v have (kiddkool69)*

I'm hoping to get around 120 WHP with my little '84 GLI. It'll have a 1.8L 8 valve with a 272 (or maybe a 276) cam, adjustable cam gear, P&P hydro head shaved about 2mm, intake manifold from a G60, larger throttle body, lightened flywheel, 2.5" exhaust and running on Digi 1. I don't know if this will be enugh, but I hope so!
I'll also be spraying in about a 60 shot of nitrous when running the 1/4 mile!


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## vwpat (Oct 25, 2000)

*Re: aba scirocco (dfinn)*

quote:[HR][/HR]What cars had the 2.Ol aba 8v engine?
94 and up jettas, golfs and NBs.[HR][/HR]​93-early 99 Golfs/Jettas. NB and 99.5+ Golfs/Jettas use the AEG and similar codes which is a very different engine from the ABA.


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## dfinn (Apr 6, 2001)

*Re: aba scirocco (vwpat)*

could someone fill me in on the differences. It's still 2.0, still 8 valves. I know I'm over simplifying but the only difference i've noticed is the intake runners.


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## Racer_X (Jul 14, 2002)

*Re: what type of potential does the 1.8 8v have (kiddkool69)*

You were the one who just got the Scirocco and was going to drag race it at the local 1/8th mile strip, weren't you?
How does it do now? Take it out and run it a bit to get a baseline.
I see a lot of people have mentioned 2 liter upgrades here. Mostly the ABA block. That's a tough conversion for a Scirocco because the ABA block is taller than your 1.8 liter block. You might have clearance problems with the hood and the rain gutter, and you'll most likely have problems with the exhaust, too, and you'll need some kind of custom exhaust (either a custome downpipe or a custom header) to make that work.
A better alternative, if you can find it, is the Audi 3A block (sometime called the bubble block). It's a 2.0 liter engine, and the block will bolt up to your existing head, or to a JH big valve solid lifter head, or I think even to a 1.8L or 2.0L 16V head. Whatever VW head you put on it, it will fit under your hood and hook up to a standard Scirocco exhaust system without any problems. 
I'll offer a couple of other pieces of advice.
First, have some fun driving the car and getting a baseline of what it can do. If you want to work on incremental stuff, that can be fun trying to better your time every trip to the drag strip. 
Have you taken it to the strip yet? What was your time and speed?
Second, if you're considering an engine rebuild or engine swap and this is also your primary transportation, consider getting a used engine from a junkyard and rebuilding that. Then, when it's ready, you're only without your transportation for the time it takes to swap the engines. Otherwise, you'll be without a car (or need a different car) for the duration of the engine rebuild project. Engine rebuild projects always take longer than you think and cost more than you budget for. 
Good luck with your 'Rocco.


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## kiddkool69 (Dec 17, 2002)

*Re: what type of potential does the 1.8 8v have (Racer_X)*

yeah i am the guy who just got my scirocco...haven't run it yet...thanks for the advice Racer_X...it's not my primary transportation...the engine seems strong so i was going to stick with it and rebuild it...if i can get the motor to about 115-120hp that would be good..looking now into some sort of forced induction most likely a supercharger...any suggestions...i figure that can tack on another 50 ponies...power to weight at that point would be awsome...any advice on the supercharger would be greatly appreciated...thanks again


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## Racer_X (Jul 14, 2002)

*Re: what type of potential does the 1.8 8v have (kiddkool69)*

Which engine do you have? 
If it's a JH or one of the other 8.5:1 or 9:1 engines, boost is pretty easy. Well, boost with CIS or CIS-Lambda is still a bit of a challenge, but not all that difficult if you know which aisles to shop at the junkyard. 50 additional HP under boost is pretty easy for these engines if you get the right mixture of Audi, Volvo, Porsche and Mercedes parts.
If you have an RD engine, or any of the other 10:1 engines, boost is a bit more difficult due to the higher compression.
As for easy mods for the short term, Audi throttle body and intake manifolds are good for a few extra ponies.
Also, if you have CIS, opening up the air intake with a larger, smooth pipe going from the airbox to the hole in the radiator support helps a lot. You can also enlarge the holes in front of the radiator on the radiator support to let more air in or put scoops on those holes for a "ram air" effect. A larger piece of pipe between the air box and the throttle body will help.
On the exhaust side, headers and a straight pipe if it's a pure track driven car, or a good high flow exhaust system (muffled) if it's also driven on the street. If you drive it to the track, but there's no noise limits at the track, consider clamping a supertrap or a muffler of some kind on the end of a straight pipe and taking it off for the drag runs.
And get all the weight you can out of the car. I'd also consider a rear disc upgrade for a drag car. It adds a pound or twwo to the overall weight, but takes a lot of inertia out of the rear wheels. If it's a dragstrip only car, you can even take a significant amount of weight and inertia out of the rotors. I'll post some pics of what I have on my diesel if you want some ideas. I don't recommend this if you're going to drive it fast on the street, though, because that weight is there to soak up heat and if you take too much out, brake fade under severe use is an issue. But on a drag strip, you only have to make one stop and it's usually not that critical that it be a really short stop.


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## kiddkool69 (Dec 17, 2002)

*Re: what type of potential does the 1.8 8v have (Racer_X)*

it has a JH engine so i should be good there...Audi, Volvo, Porsche and Mercedes parts...knowing which ones would help me alot...i had already planned on going to discs in the rear, your pictures would help me a good bit...weight reduction of course...if it doesnt make go or make it safe its unneccessary...i spent $500 on the car, and my goal is not to spend more than $1500 on mods less if possible
thanks again


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## Racer_X (Jul 14, 2002)

*Re: what type of potential does the 1.8 8v have (kiddkool69)*

Yours has CIS-Lambda most likely. When you're ready to add boost, check the search feature and look in the Forced Induction forum for threads about CIS. 
The most important part for running boost with CIS is a boost sensitive control pressure regulator (also called a warm up regulator). This part allows for mixture enrichment under boost. Turbo Volvos, Turbo Audis and some Porsche Turbos with CIS had these bits, and you can bolt one up where your existing control pressure regulator is. Theres some extra ports on it to hook up to the intake manifold so that it can sense boost (or vacuum) and adjust the control pressure (and resulting air/fuel mixture) accordingly. 
Your fuel distributor will work well up into the 160-170 hp range. A 16V Scirocco distributor is slightly larger and good for a little bit more. A Turbo Volvo or Turbo Audi fuel distributor is good for significantly more boost and HP. I've heard up to 220-240 or maybe more, but that's still being explored. The ultimate might be a fuel distributor and air box from a Mercedes 450SEL V8 and running two injectors per cylinder.
If you're thinking about boost, get the book "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell, and if you're going to keep the CIS injection, there are a couple of good books about Bosch fuel injection that cover CIS and all its different flavors. 
I'll try to get pictures of my rear brakes on the Jetta for you, but it'll be after Christmas before I get to that.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: what type of potential does the 1.8 8v have (Racer_X)*

Racer_X are you talking about the Motronic/CIS 16V rocco distributor? i assume you just swap over the fuel distributor section and use the rest of the CIS-Lambda bits from the rabbit?
I'm interested in that point since i have a spare scirocco setup and i dont want things to get lean in the higher rpm's once i get this 1.8L together.. if it starts getting lean and knocks with the higher compression then the whole point of the motor is pointless..
Just thought i'd ask.


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## Racer_X (Jul 14, 2002)

*Re: what type of potential does the 1.8 8v have (CdnDub)*

I'm really not sure. I'm just relating what I remember reading before. I haven't seen what folks have done with the 16V Scirocco fuel distributors. I would imagine that you could just pull the fuel distribution block off of it and fit it to the airbox of your Rabbit or Rabbit GTI, but I really don't know for sure. If you already have the parts, you could probably look at them closely and figure out what might work and what won't work. 
Actually, the Turbo Volvo and Audi fuel distributors seem to be more common for the turbo folks needing more fuel than the stock VW CIS basic or CIS-Lambda setup. Some people swap the fuel distribution blocks only, others use the whole "mixture control unit," air box, flap and fuel distributer and everything attached there. I'm getting back to my turbo-Jetta project when I get back from the holidays, and I've got the whole mixture control unit from a Mercedes V8 for that. I don't think there's any way the air/fuel mixture would be right with a VW flap and airbox attached to that fuel distributor block, so I pulled the whole unit to try. I've also got an Audi manifold that's drilled for injectors, so I'll run 2 injectors per cylinder (along with probably 20-25psi of boost). 
I know this doesn't help you clean out your old parts closet, but that's all I remember.


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## CdnDub (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: what type of potential does the 1.8 8v have (Racer_X)*

The dual injector setup sounds really interesting.. i'm getting a callaway A2 motor in trade for a 16V 9A block.. <i do the swap and make it run> and i get the callaway engine for the work.. they want something more reliable for their daily.. and i'd like to eventually swap this into my 83 gti in place of the 1.8L motor i'm building up now..
I like the simplicity of the CIS system so a dual injector setup sounds really interesting to get the extra fuel you would need. i guess there is no way to make it progresive since it would be doubling the fuel right from idle..
Sounds like an interesting setup though i'd love to hear how it works out.
Dave


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## Racer_X (Jul 14, 2002)

*Re: what type of potential does the 1.8 8v have (CdnDub)*

Actually, I think it's going to idle pretty good. At least I hope so. I sort of hooked the Mercedes fuel dizzy up with duct tape and plastic sheeting on the air side and some questionable plumbing fittings that didn't leak much on the fuel side and hooked it to the JH GTI engine I'm using the head from for this project before I pulled the head. I was able to start the engine and it didn't run badly. Of course, it wasn't really that good with all the air leaks and fuel leaks. Still, it showed some serious potential.
The beauty of this system is that CIS doesn't care how many cylinders, injectors or whatnot is downstream from the mixture controller. The airflap measure how much air goes in and the fuel distributor puts in an amount of fuel roughly correct for the optimum mixture, plus adjustments from the warmup regulator (and lambda sensor in a CIS-Lambda system). As long as all of the air through the flap mixes with all the fuel from the injection lines, the mixture is going to be about right. Also, those 4.5 liter Mercedes V8's with automatic transmissions only idled at around 500-650 RPM in or so in Drive, so those mixture control units and fuel distributors can measure and flow relatively small amounts of fuel as well as handling the larger quantities for full throttle operation. 
I'll keep everyone here posted on the results when I get back to this project in late January and into the spring.


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## 84_GLI_coupe (Apr 3, 2001)

*Re: what type of potential does the 1.8 8v have (CdnDub)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I'm aiming for somewhere between 145 and 160 hp with my motor.. hoping i'll see 150+ but i know its tuff with CIS and a 1.8L
Heres whats done to the motor for my 83 GTI
11:1 compression
new once oversize german 10:1 pistons making it an 1800cc block
fully balanced bottom end <including flywheel/pully/pressureplate>
ARP Rod and Head bolts, new german bearings and gaskets
headwork in progress by A1Rocco
ported stock GTI intake, portmatched to largest gasket size, portmatched and knifeedged throttlebody
stage 1 headwork, unshroud valve seats, open up the flow to the intake/exhaust valves.. no combustion chamber polishing etc.
supersprint header into a 2.25" exhaust no cat and a sebring 2.5" muffler
Autotech high lift/rev springs
288 deg cam with 11.2 lift and 108.8 lobe centers
Kent Adjustable Cam gear
stock CIS-Lambda injection
Knock sensing ignition from a 16V
If it makes a solid 140-145hp and lots of torque i'm happy if it makes more i'll let you know. Once its rolling i'll be throwing the car on a dyno and finding out what all the work actually produces.
Keep in mind this is a fully balanced motor with an 8000rpm redline
I will be running 4 poly engine mounts and yes this is a daily driver.. its going to be my work car and an autoX car[HR][/HR]​Sounds a lot like the engine I just built this summer!







It's sitting on the floor in my dad's shop, beside my car. If I had a spare CIS-Lambda harness lying around, I'd stick my engine on my dad's engine dyno! I wish I had a spare harness.







I doubt there's one at the wreckers around here, there aren't many Rabbits left, as we all know.


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