# IDF Tubular Control Arm Thoughts/Review



## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

***Update 10/6/12*** I made it through the car show season with ZERO issues with these control arms. The car made it to SoWo, Cult Classic, VAG Fair, and h2oi (with trips to First Class Fitment and Toys 4 Tots still coming). They've 100% held and I would recommend them to anyone. 

***Update 5/27/12*** Last weekend I made the trek down to SoWo from here near Baltimore (~1300 miles round trip), and these control arms performed flawlessly. If I didn't know they were installed on the car I would not have noticed anything out of the ordinary. Will continue to update through out the summer show season, but anyone thinking about these should not hesitate to grab a set. 

Since not many people are running these control arms, I thought I would make a thread about my experiences with them to get the word out. 

Background: Innovative Design and Fabrication (https://www.facebook.com/innovativefab) makes a tubular control arm with slotted ball joint holes that allow for a small camber adjustment. Their design also eliminates the interference bagged cars encounter between the subframe and the control arms at full drop. In my eyes, they are an alternative to doing the R32/TT spindle and hub swaps. I wanted to eliminate the positive camber that happens when I completely air out, so with that in mind I rang up the guys and IDF and placed an order for a set. 

Initial impressions: Build quality is very impressive. They feel very stout, like something you would find on a race car. I opted for a set with sway bar end link mounting locations (for use with my e-level sensors), and sprung for the rubber heim joint sleeves/boots. 










Prep/installation: Getting the arms set to the proper length is a breeze as IDF provides you with measurements for each heim. The only thing IDF doesn't tell you is that the arms ship with two different sized heim joint inserts. There is a tall set and a short set and it matters where you put them (the shorter of the two bars on each arm get the taller inserts). Aside from that, the install is extremely straightforward. Working with a friend, it took us less than 45 minutes to complete the swap. 










Results/Final Thoughts: After we adjusted the toe-in, the positive camber has been eliminated....but I didn't gain as much negative camber as I had hoped I would. No pictures of the fronts yet, I need to change to slightly smaller spacers to get the front tires off the underside of the fenders. The ride quality/characteristics didn't change much either. I do notice a little more road vibration in the wheel at speed, but I feel like the VF mounts we installed today play a factor in that (and the car still needs a proper alignment). However, the road vibrations I do feel are very minimal. 


Overall I am pretty happy with them so far and will update the thread with more pictures and thoughts as I get more miles on them :beer:


----------



## Miguel Lopez Ma (Mar 12, 2007)

son of planrforrobert said:


> Since not many people are running these control arms, I thought I would make a thread about my experiences with them to get the word out.
> 
> Background: Innovative Design and Fabrication (https://www.facebook.com/innovativefab) makes a tubular control arm with slotted ball joint holes that allow for a small camber adjustment. Their design also eliminates the interference bagged cars encounter between the subframe and the control arms at full drop. In my eyes, they are an alternative to doing the R32/TT spindle and hub swaps. I wanted to eliminate the positive camber that happens when I completely air out, so with that in mind I rang up the guys and IDF and placed an order for a set.
> 
> ...


 : Cerveza: 

: Thumbup:


----------



## NeverEnding... (May 9, 2007)

nice review :thumbup:


----------



## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

Now that I've had a chance to drive on these for a few days, I am happy to report that they are no different ride-wise than your standard control arms. I do feel that I can feel road vibrations a little more than I could previously, but I believe that it is a combination of the new arms and installing VF motor mounts. 

Overall pretty happy with them so far.


----------



## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Yeah i think that most of the increased vibrations are due to the motor mounts with a greater stiffness. 

What i was worried about with these control arms is the wear and tear the heim joint will take over 6 months or a years worth of driving. Get back to us about play in the joints after some serious DD'ing :thumbup:


----------



## .Ant (Jun 7, 2011)

*FV-QR*

I like the IDF control arms, but they do not provide that much camber adjustment from what I hear. They have just as much adjustment as the TT LCAs, which are like $300-400 cheaper. I think I did see that IDF was coming out with a new version that allows more camber though.


----------



## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

.Ant said:


> I like the IDF control arms, but they do not provide that much camber adjustment from what I hear. They have just as much adjustment as the TT LCAs, which are like $300-400 cheaper. I think I did see that IDF was coming out with a new version that allows more camber though.


 Two things: 

1. Honestly, I feel that the TT/R32 LCA's would offer more camber. But with that said, I am happy with where my camber is with these installed. The only thing the TT swap offers that IDF doesn't is a tie rod flip. For me, there is a fine line between eliminating the positive camber while aired out (my main issue) and building too much camber in and having the tires wear excessively at ride height. 

2. The TT LCA's may be $300-$400 cheaper (if you buy used), but you also will need to buy TT hubs as well (and bearings, to boot). If you can find the TT stuff used, you might end up spending a tick less than what the IDF arms cost new. However, The install for the control arms is significantly less involved than a hub swap.


----------



## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

Last weekend I made the trek down to SoWo from here near Baltimore (~1300 miles round trip), and these control arms performed flawlessly. If I didn't know they were installed on the car I would not have noticed anything out of the ordinary. Will continue to update through out the summer show season, but anyone thinking about these should not hesitate to grab a set. 


One with new Neogen's on the front (me not getting the car aligned before Sowo = chewing up 4 front tires during the trip  ).


----------



## midwest dubin (Feb 18, 2008)

Bummer I was really banking on at least -3 degs.


----------



## Niagara_V_Dub (Sep 25, 2007)

son of planrforrobert said:


> chewing up 4 front tires during the trip  ).


How many front tires do you have on your car? 

And any wear and tear on the control arms?

Anything that you've discovered since having them for a little bit?


----------



## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

When I pulled the wheels off the car once I got back I gave everything a once over and everything was as it should be.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2010)

midwest dubin said:


> Bummer I was really banking on at least -3 degs.


-3 would be doable if you modify the towers to pull the struts in towards the motor.


----------



## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

I'm glad they don't allow for that much adjustment. Right now at ride height, I am somewhere between -2 and -3 and I don't necessarily like the looks of my front wheels at those angles. If he's looking at -3 degrees when aired out, he will be at -5 to -6 degrees while driving, and to me both measurements super are excessive.


----------



## midwest dubin (Feb 18, 2008)

> son of planrforrobert
> 
> I'm glad they don't allow for that much adjustment. Right now at ride height, I am somewhere between -2 and -3 and I don't necessarily like the looks of my front wheels at those angles. If he's looking at -3 degrees when aired out, he will be at -5 to -6 degrees while driving, and to me both measurements super are excessive.


Why would I get more camber as the car goes up? 



> [email protected]
> -3 would be doable if you modify the towers to pull the struts in towards the motor.


Has anyone done this yet?


----------



## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

For the same reason you get less camber as the car goes down....the geometry changes. As an example (my numbers are for sure not exact): To get -1* of negative camber when aired out, you need to dial in -2 to -3 degrees of negative camber at ride height simply because camber goes positive when you lower the suspension. 

Take a look at your camber now with your car at ride height vs. aired out, there will be a noticeable difference.


----------



## midwest dubin (Feb 18, 2008)

> son of planrforrobert
> For the same reason you get less camber as the car goes down....the geometry changes. As an example (my numbers are for sure not exact): To get -1* of negative camber when aired out, you need to dial in -2 to -3 degrees of negative camber at ride height simply because camber goes positive when you lower the suspension.
> 
> Take a look at your camber now with your car at ride height vs. aired out, there will be a noticeable difference.


 I was hoping that maybe they fixed that problem. Would this occur if the strut towers were modified? The front set-up is so weak on our cars! I just want -2 while driving and -3.5 while parked is that so much to ask for hahaopcorn:


----------



## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

There is no way your scenario will work (unless I am really missing something with how our suspensions work). There is no practical way to dial in more negative camber when the car is aired out simply because of how the suspension acts when aired out.


----------



## midwest dubin (Feb 18, 2008)

```
son of planrforrobert 
 There is no way your scenario will work (unless I am really missing something with how our suspensions work). There is no practical way to dial in more negative camber when the car is aired out simply because of how the suspension acts when aired out.
```
 So what you’re saying is that I should just buy these control arms and be happy with what they give me lol? Can anyone confirm that there is no other possible way to get my desired output of more camber as the car goes down? I really tied now, I sold my camera and won some WeFest tickets that I sold and almost have enough money to buy these, but, if I can’t get what I want I almost just want to put it towards more ink. I’m in a pickle!


----------



## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

By all means send a message to the IDF guys and pose your questions to them, I very well could be missing something with how our cars work...but I don't think I am. 

As you lower the front of our cars, camber goes positive. Because of this you can't start with X degrees of negative camber at ride height, air out your car, and expect the camber to be more negative. 

The IDF control arms are absolutely worth the money. They do almost everything the TT/R32 hub & control arm does, and are typically cheaper to source and even easier to install. If you do buy them, spend the extra money on the little rubber heim joint covers...they are a bitch to get on but keep crap and road grim out of the joints.


----------



## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

To achieve the camber gain you are looking for as the car is lowered, you would need to correct the geometry through the use of ball joint spacers that keep the ball joint at the same position on the arm, but lift the spindle up. This is also slightly accomplished via the TT spindles and more so on H2 sport spindles, however for greatest results a custom solution must be used.


----------



## 01Jetta20VT (Jul 4, 2007)

Nice review Mike! I just stumbled across this thread. :laugh: 
To answer some of the questions here... 
The arms HAVE been redesigned for more camber adjustment! :beer: 
As far as the change in camber throughout the suspension travel... With everyone trying to go sow low with these cars, the geometry is so out of wack on them. What we do to help with this issue, is raise the subframe. We section the mounts on the subframe 1 inch, which raises the control arm mounting points and the steering rack. This brings you back much closer to the original geometry, and allows you to go an inch lower, laying the body on the ground. When the subframe is raised, it not only helps with all the crazy camber change, but it also helps eliminate the positive camber issues. The subframe is something you CAN purchase from us and bolt in with a minimal amount of modification!  

Give us a shout, Were willing to help any and everyone with any problems you may be encountering. [email protected]


----------



## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: 

I'd be interested in seeing a step-by-step on installing your subframe setup.


----------



## DUBgoon (Nov 23, 2008)

son of planrforrobert said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> I'd be interested in seeing a step-by-step on installing your subframe setup.


 great write up I would also love to see a step-by-step on the instalation of the subframe :thumbup:


----------



## jettaaddictionII (Sep 3, 2011)

good write up. 

sub'd


----------



## arethirdytwo (Apr 4, 2007)

1. Car in air

2. Wheels off

3. Dogbone off

4. Remove splash guards (torx)

5. Remove 02 harness cover on trailing edge of subframe (if you have one)

6. Remove the six nuts holding your balls joints to your control arms. 

7. Place jack under the subframe with some padding if you don't want to mar anything.

8. Pull the four steering rack bolts.

9. Loosen the four stretch bolts in the subframe (I think they are like 21/19)

10. Allow subrame to drop some yet remain supported by the jack. 

11. Wiggle loose the steering rack from the subframe, sometimes it's a bit stuck on there.

12. Remove four subframe bolts and make sure the control arms and balljoints are separate.

13. Lower jack.

Then go have some sex.

Opps you said installation. Do that backwards 




DUBgoon said:


> great write up I would also love to see a step-by-step on the instalation of the subframe :thumbup:


----------



## 01Jetta20VT (Jul 4, 2007)

son of planrforrobert said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> I'd be interested in seeing a step-by-step on installing your subframe setup.


We have a customer scheduled in a few weeks for a subframe, we will definitely do a write up! :beer:



arethirdytwo said:


> 1. Car in air
> 
> 2. Wheels off
> 
> ...


There's quite a bit more to it than that :laugh:


----------



## plastic_bullet (Mar 11, 2006)

Like what? And what do they cost?


----------



## arethirdytwo (Apr 4, 2007)

Haha. Please continue? Don't make my tired ass go make a subframe out in 10 minutes video. Are we talking a sectioned subframe? If that's that case... throw in a notch, some tierod clearance :laugh: I'd never play with the sectioned subframe without R/TT spindles. 



01Jetta20VT said:


> We have a customer scheduled in a few weeks for a subframe, we will definitely do a write up! :beer:
> 
> 
> 
> There's quite a bit more to it than that :laugh:


----------



## 01Jetta20VT (Jul 4, 2007)

arethirdytwo said:


> Haha. Please continue? Don't make my tired ass go make a subframe out in 10 minutes video. Are we talking a sectioned subframe? If that's that case... throw in a notch, some tierod clearance :laugh: I'd never play with the sectioned subframe without R/TT spindles.


Yes sectioned... You also need to make room for the rack to move up inside the firewall, where the column connects. You dont need R/TT spindles either, the subframe not only lets you go lower, but it brings the geometry back ion check, getting rid of the positive camber with airlift struts.










You can trim the stock rubber seal and flip it.^










This is without R spindles running airlift slam xls ^


----------



## arethirdytwo (Apr 4, 2007)

Nice. Any side shots?


----------



## 01Jetta20VT (Jul 4, 2007)

arethirdytwo said:


> Nice. Any side shots?


I dont have any with his wheels on. This is the only half decent shot I have...


----------



## arethirdytwo (Apr 4, 2007)

Nice. I'd have to bow out, maybe a half inch section? If I went down an inch I would have to trim/section my skirts and bumper. I'd also have to actually tub the inner wells. Would be fun though


----------



## 01Jetta20VT (Jul 4, 2007)

arethirdytwo said:


> Nice. I'd have to bow out, maybe a half inch section? If I went down an inch I would have to trim/section my skirts and bumper. I'd also have to actually tub the inner wells. Would be fun though


With a half inch section, you wouldn't need to trim the firewall for the steering rack


----------



## DUBgoon (Nov 23, 2008)

01Jetta20VT said:


> We have a customer scheduled in a few weeks for a subframe, we will definitely do a write up! :beer:


Any update on a write up?


----------



## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

Reviving this. I made it through the car show season with ZERO issues with these control arms. The car made it to SoWo, Cult Classic, VAG Fair, and h2oi (with trips to First Class Fitment and Toys 4 Tots still coming). They've 100% held and I would recommend them to anyone.


----------



## Culver (Jun 1, 2009)

Anymore info on these IDF Subframes?

would like more info / photos. 

This extra 1 inch of clearence you speak of. I assume thats without motor mount spacers? So just the subframe alone will give you the ability to lay frame rail?

Very Interested :thumbup:


----------



## Twilliams83 (Jan 25, 2011)

CULVER said:


> Anymore info on these IDF Subframes?
> 
> would like more info / photos.
> 
> ...


i believe you run motor mount spacers with these.


----------



## SamS3 (Jun 6, 2011)

Did anyone else have to clean out a load of weld splatter from the thread holes? These things took so long to come, I figured they'd be perfect on arrival. Now I've got to go grab a tap to clean out all the **** in the threads. Awesome work. :facepalm:


----------



## Chriskugel (Apr 22, 2012)

SamS3 said:


> Did anyone else have to clean out a load of weld splatter from the thread holes? These things took so long to come, I figured they'd be perfect on arrival. Now I've got to go grab a tap to clean out all the **** in the threads. Awesome work. :facepalm:


Mine shall be here friday :thumbup: Ill let you know if they have "a load of weld splatter"


----------



## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

Mine had a little bit of splatter in them, but it was nothing a small wire brush and some compressed air couldn't fix.


----------



## SamS3 (Jun 6, 2011)

Apparently it's not spatter but beads from bead blasting. Still, a bit frustrating. Hopefully yours are ok.


----------



## SamS3 (Jun 6, 2011)

Yeah I'll try and get a small wire brush in there.


----------



## Dylan8 (Jul 27, 2010)

Anyone have a copy of the instructions specifying how far to thread the rose joints in?


----------



## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*updates?*

I'm interested in getting these for my 2000 MK4.
I'm about stock ride height, but 
1. have to replace my LCA bushings and 
2. want to be able adjust camber.

Questions:
1. How many miles do you(s) have on them?
2. How do you think they will hold up as a daily driver with winters/salt etc?
3. It seems cheaper and easier to do these than the TT LCAs. Can the TTs be done without doing other parts?

Thanks in Advance,
TomJV


----------



## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*IDF done*

Well, they're in. It took me most of two days. (Ha! :45. I guess I'm a loser! LOL)
I agree that the job is "straight forward". I mean it's only a few nuts and bolts right? I've done a million brake jobs, strut swaps motor mounts(no clutches or head work), but this one was a PITA I think. I did run into some probs though.

First off, the product:
My IDF LCas came in a couple of days. I gather they keep one set in stock, because they had them ready to go.
Out of the box IDF LCAs look impressive and high quality. I'd recommend them based on site and feel. The customer service is a bit tight lipped, but the guy is actually very nice when you get used to his style.

Next, the job:
-The rubber boots, while necessary are just a PITA to put on(like all rubbers). 
They go on though(like all rubbers).

-The instructions tell you to measure 1 9/16" (I believe) from the center of the heim to the arm. It's tricky and not exact. The heims have the rubbers on them and they move every which way(which is what they're supposed to do. The conical shims are loose and moving all around also. 
It gets done though.

-The arms don't just slide in. You have to twist/adjust the heims to get both sides to slide in. First, I simply unscrewed one side until they went in. After thinking it over and doing the other side, I decided to unscrew both heims an equal amount(rather than just one the full amt). I therefore had to re-do the first one. No big deal. 
It got done though.

-I found the OEM LCA connection to the ball joint a PITA to get apart. I just needed another 1/4" and it would have popped off. It fought me the whole way. I wound up tapping the triangular ball joint pad with a ball peen(it rotates) and that got it. 
They came off though.

Next, the problems:
1. The passenger side forward control arm bolt hits the oil pan(doesn't come out). You have to drop the subframe or jack the motor. I opted for the latter, which worked fine. It just took an extra bit of time to undo the doggie and motormount bolt.

2. The driver side control arm link attachment hole was not threaded correctly on my product. It took me a couple of trips to some stores and calls to customer service to finally figure it out. I didn't want to just crank it in etc. I wound up buying a 10mm x 1.5 ptich tap(not the easiest thing to find. Most tool stores don't sell any taps let alone metric ones. Service Star had it! A true old fashioned hardware store) and cleaning out the threads. This worked fine.

3. Lastly, the front wheels wound up really splayed! So much so, I couldn't drive it. I had to figure out how to do a pseudo alignment. The tie rods are a rusted mess so it took me a while to get it going. I wound up unscrewing them quite a bit and adjusting the ball joints. How much can you go?

In the end, the car drives weird! A couple of times around the block was not inspiring, on the contrary, it was unnerving. I'm gonna limp to the alignment guy ASAP and see if he can get it going. I didn't notice any extra noise yet though. The knocking sound I had (prolly from the OEM LCA bushings) seems to be gone, horray!































TomJV


----------



## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*Done*

Well I had the aligment done. Actually, I had it pretty close. The guy got up on his haunches because I wanted the r/s camber adjusted. "It's toe only on these cars, sir. That's aftermarket!" Calm down clown! First off, don't call me "sir". I've been coming here for 20 f*&*ing years, my name is "Tom". Second, excuse me for not realizing that the camber adjustment only comes with the MK3 because it's stock. FINE! So I paid $40 extra. WTF . . . Mavis.

Anyway, what really matters, HOW IT DRIVES!

1. Excessive Vibration, NOT! Right off the bat I can tell you(s), the car rides like stock, noise-wise. There's no huge increase in cabin noise and road noise etc. There is some extra "feeback", but it's minimal and totally drivable as a DD. As someone said, the LCAs are most noticeable on bumps with short wave length and high amplitude, like poor expansion joints. Speed bumps, no prob. It's not like the steering wheel is vibrating, but it's "there". If someone put them in your car, you probably wouldn't notice them for a few miles and then you wouldn't think something was broken. 

The car definitely steers quicker and is more responsive. The front end feels lighter. Understeer feels decreased. Overall you feel more connected and confident. Are they worth $600? I'm not going to make that call. I like them and am glad (so far) I did them. I'd recommend them to anyone who considers themselves a driving enthusiast. That said, I'm gonna buy a set of spare heims to have on had, just in case.

Additional: I now have about 100 miles of highway and local miles on them. I can say, I notice them most when doing the local roads that are a mess around here. The roads that the state has seen fit to only blacktop the outer half with a skip coat and over the winter has chipped off and been repatched in spots. It's now a mess and I find it annoying even in my bone stock normally quiet Honda Ridgline. On these streets, I indeed notice the difference. I'M STILL NOT DISSATISFIED. Just putting it out there.

TomJV

I have about 300 miles on these parts now. I have knocking when I brake or accelerate (launch). I thought about it and recalled that I reused the stretch bolts on the LCAs (front and rear). I torqued them all to 52ft/lbs. It didn't feel like it was tight enough to me. It certainly wasn't as tight as I had to loosen them. Anyway, I turned them a 1/4 turn more each(the rears in particular, turned easy) and the noises decreased. I'm gonna call VW today and replace the 4 bolts and re-torque and stretch them properly to see if this helps. 

Aside from all that, the arms are great! The car is just WAY tight. It holds a line better that ever at speed. 
It's harsh on roads that look like acne potmarks, yes. I can feel expansion joints more, yes. 
On twisty parkways (here in NY), on throttle or off, the car holds it's line. If you see a pothole, just flick your wrist and you move 6" over, then hold your new line NP. 
I took a clover leaf the other day(nobody was around and there was a big ugly gaurd rail) at like 60. Zero understeer. I could have pushed it more. I can see why the track guys like these. The front end feels rock solid. The original poster said he could "feel the tires breaking loose", I concur. You can feel the front tires walking across the pavement. The rears are sticking. I mean the tires are the weak point now. The car is very predictable.

TomJV


----------



## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*TCA update*

I said:
I have about 300 miles on these parts now. I have knocking when I brake or accelerate (launch). I thought about it and recalled that I reused the stretch bolts on the LCAs (front and rear). I torqued them all to 52ft/lbs. It didn't feel like it was tight enough to me. It certainly wasn't as tight as I had to loosen them. Anyway, I turned them a 1/4 turn more each(the rears in particular, turned easy) and the noises decreased. I'm gonna call VW today and replace the 4 bolts and re-torque and stretch them properly to see if this helps. 

UPDATE:
I went to VW and bought new LCA bolts for $25. Installed the bolts and all noises are gone.
TomJV


----------



## plastic_bullet (Mar 11, 2006)

I just want to thank you for following through with updates. It seems like nobody ever does. 

So for you sir, uh... I mean Tom. 










Sent from my Apple II using ProTERM.


----------



## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

Hey NP,
I hate reading dead end threads too!
TomJV


----------



## Vee-DubbVR6 (Jul 31, 2007)

great feedback, Tom - thank you! :thumbup::beer:


----------



## son of planrforrobert (Dec 21, 2009)

Bored, checking out old threads. I saw this post Tom made and wanted to add some commentary to what he experienced. My additions to his post are in *BOLD*.



tomjv said:


> Well, they're in. It took me most of two days. (Ha! :45. I guess I'm a loser! LOL)
> I agree that the job is "straight forward". I mean it's only a few nuts and bolts right? I've done a million brake jobs, strut swaps motor mounts(no clutches or head work), but this one was a PITA I think. I did run into some probs though.
> 
> * When Tom and I talked via PM, he indicated that arms did not just drop right in as mine did. I am not sure where the disparity is, but like I mentioned in the original post, install for me was about 45 minutes, including stopping to take photos along the way.*
> ...


----------



## Buck Russell (Feb 24, 2003)

Well, Mike, if you're going to get technical...

Mark and Brandon both work at IDF. Mark handles most of the ordering and admin work, but both individuals are top notch. Sometimes it's a little difficult to get in touch with them, but it's not because they're ignroning people, they're just busy.


----------

