# All s3 k04 kits chime in please.



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

I am running the apr s3/ed30 kit that i installed about a week ago. I did not want to use the stock intake because its so restrictive IMO. I cannot understand why apr designed it that way but i guess they just tryed to make an oem kit which they did. Anyways I modified a neuspeed intake to work with the kit. I basically had a bung welded on to run the dv relocate. The first time i took it out and jumped on it in third the car started to misfire/fuel cut. I couldnt figure out why. So i was talking back and forth with apr and they said to put the stock intake back on and try. So i did just that and it fixed the issue. Basically there is no air straightener in the neuspeed intake and i guess the car doesnt like that using a k04. My question is to all the others running these kits apr or not. What intakes are you guys running and what software because i know there are a few out there that are not running stock airbox? You guys having any issues? I just cant bring myself to do an upgrade and have to go back to a stock restrictive airbox just to enjoy my car. Thanks for reading....Brandon


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

anyone..... bueler......bueler


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

I will be testing a new intake system on my car eventually and I will let you know if the results are worth it or not.


----------



## BlackRabbit34 (Jun 2, 2007)

*Re: All s3 k04 kits chime in please. (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_I am running the apr s3/ed30 kit that i installed about a week ago. I did not want to use the stock intake because its so restrictive IMO. I cannot understand why apr designed it that way but i guess they just tryed to make an oem kit which they did. Anyways I modified a neuspeed intake to work with the kit. I basically had a bung welded on to run the dv relocate. The first time i took it out and jumped on it in third the car started to misfire/fuel cut. I couldnt figure out why. So i was talking back and forth with apr and they said to put the stock intake back on and try. So i did just that and it fixed the issue. Basically there is no air straightener in the neuspeed intake and i guess the car doesnt like that using a k04. My question is to all the others running these kits apr or not. What intakes are you guys running and what software because i know there are a few out there that are not running stock airbox? You guys having any issues? I just cant bring myself to do an upgrade and have to go back to a stock restrictive airbox just to enjoy my car. Thanks for reading....Brandon










So jealous! I want a ride!!!


----------



## mjptuning (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: All s3 k04 kits chime in please. (Branman)*

i am running forge cai...we have done logs forge vs evoms...forge flowed 20grams more air...


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

are you running a k04 kit?


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

I know there are more k04 cars out there. little help would be great


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: (Branman)*

I wonder if you would have had the same problem if you didnt relocate the DV and kept it in the back.?


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

the s3/ed30 k04 does not have a place for the dv on the turbo. There is no option but to relocate.


----------



## playback (Jun 14, 2007)

*Re: All s3 k04 kits chime in please. (mjptuning)*

I'm also running the Forge CAI and no issue's so far. Also K04 same as MJP. 
Car's in question he's talking about were two identical Cupra's that both have identical mods and maps loaded. 
Forge flowed 20g's more






















And I have never had any misfires http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

are you guys upgrading to these k04s or are they stock? Im only asking the guys that have upgraded to the s3/ed30 k04.


----------



## Lou_Y2mK5 (Apr 6, 2008)

just get the bsh intake w dv relocate and call it a day.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

I would like to actually hear that it will fix it from someone that had a problem using a k04 and switched to the bsh and fixed the issue ya know. I will do whatever to fix the issue but i dont wanna just go blow money on something im not 100% sure it will fix. But then again you gotta pay to play lol


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_I would like to actually hear that it will fix it from someone that had a problem using a k04 and switched to the bsh and fixed the issue ya know. I will do whatever to fix the issue but i dont wanna just go blow money on something im not 100% sure it will fix. But then again you gotta pay to play lol

The BSH intake is a 2.75" maf cross section just like every other filter on a stick. 
I doubt you will see any difference at all. 
When you say "The first time i took it out and jumped on it in third the car started to misfire/fuel cut." Did you try keeping the intake on for awhile to see if the car adapted? 
The neuspeed will affect fuel trims slight from the stock airbox (I'm seeing -3%) so perhaps it was simply an issue of ecu adaptation.
Dave


----------



## Yosh_Cupra (Jun 28, 2008)

I agree with Lou, you can't go wrong with the BSH kit! K04 GTnaaI with BSH = NO HASSLES! Tried and tested...


----------



## marc1171 (Nov 19, 2008)

im using the ATP 3" intake without problems at all


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
The BSH intake is a 2.75" maf cross section just like every other filter on a stick. 
I doubt you will see any difference at all. 
When you say "The first time i took it out and jumped on it in third the car started to misfire/fuel cut." Did you try keeping the intake on for awhile to see if the car adapted? 
The neuspeed will affect fuel trims slight from the stock airbox (I'm seeing -3%) so perhaps it was simply an issue of ecu adaptation.
Dave

Im sorry i guess i should have explained better. I have been using the intake for just over a week now and it still does the exact same thing. It def should have adapted by now but i dont think thats it.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

also another issue might be that others with different software may not have an issue. Apr from what i understand does not change maf settings from oem. There may be other tuning companies that change that stuff around. I know of one guy that has the same exact setup as me but im waiting to here back from him. Its a guy from achtuning his name on here is [email protected]!ing. He is running an apr s3/ed30 kit with a neuspeed intake modified with a dv bung.


----------



## gtiiiiiiii (Mar 6, 2004)

*FV-QR*

Hmm, interesting info. I believe APR is coming out with a new Carbonio intake that will be much less restrictive and work with the K04, but no idea on a release date.
Whatever you find out I'll be following your route for sure. I have the stock airbox on there right now and I also hate having to use it.
How do you like the kit otherwise?


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

kit is great so far. It def has plenty of power where the ko3 fell short.


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: (Branman)*

I am in the same boat. I even have the new elbow from evoms that has the bung already installed. I know the evoms pulls more air. I logged it but it sets soft codes when it gets above 6500 rpms. I am sure with a better intake the APR K04 kit would scream even harder. 


_Modified by Uber-A3 at 12:21 AM 4-20-2009_


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (Branman)*

I am having the same issues with my EuroJet K04 w/APR software. Bucks up top in the rev range! I have a eurosport intake on my car basically looks just like the neuspeed intake. I was told by Arin to run some logs but I have not had the chance to do so. I wonder if not have the air screen in there makes the bucking/misfiring up to in the rev range.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

yes i have put the stock airbox back on my car and i have no issues. I think apr might wanna look into adjusting there software a tad to allow for some aftermarket intakes. This maf on oem setting is way to sensitive it seems. Maybe we can move the maf farther away like where the tsi have the maf so its a straight shot. Maybe unitronic or revo can chime in and see if there changing any of these settings or if they have heard of customers having these issues. It seems to be just apr software is having issues. Maybe they are keeping the oem settings for a reason it would just be nice to know why. I am in no way bashing apr about this, i would like to get to the bottom of the issue whether it be software or a certain type of intake that can be used. Apr has been nothing but helpful Arin has been a great help getting my logs to the right people so they can look into it but basically all that has stopped since it was found to be my neuspeed intake to be causing the issues.


_Modified by Branman at 9:07 AM 4-20-2009_


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (Branman)*

What are you feeling when the revs get higher in the rpm band?


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

basically what you described. It breaks up and cuts power. Also i noticed a difference in the boost gauge it flutters more with the neuspeed on then with the stock airbox


----------



## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_basically what you described. It breaks up and cuts power. Also i noticed a difference in the boost gauge it flutters more with the neuspeed on then with the stock airbox

i dont have a k04 so i didnt ask or comment about ne thing but my boostgauge flutters also....log block 003 and see if ur throttle is closing on its own


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

it does close, i have logged it when apr asked me to. I have not logged it when i put the stock airbox back on to try.


----------



## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: (Branman)*

mine closes also.....even in VW stockmode...sumthing with overboosting and the n75 and the wastegate area people have told me...i am fixing the possible problem tomorrow and we will see


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

My car ran 100% percent before this turbo kit so i dont know if we are having the same issues. Its whatever the apr s3 changed whether its hardware or software.


----------



## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: (Branman)*

my car ran 100% from july till novemeber...again im on stock k03 with a different tuner...i saw the fluttering boost gauge comment and chimed in what i think may be causing my problem thinking it may be the same http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

what are you fixing that may be the problem.


----------



## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: (Branman)*

im changing the N75...checking the crakcing pressure on the wastegate and making sure the wastegate rod actuator is functioning properly


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

Just talked to Unitronic and asked them about there s3 k04 software. He said they tuned there car to work with either a stock airbox or an aftermarket intake. There is a guy that works there that runs the s3 conversion and he is running a aftermarket intake without any issues.


----------



## kayaker10 (Jan 10, 2006)

*Re: All s3 k04 kits chime in please. (Branman)*

I'm running the complete AWE K04 kit with a carbonio intake. Very smooth and strong through the entire rpm range. No fuel cuts or missfires.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

I called revo as well. They said the same thing as unitronic. They tuned there car with an aftermarket intake on. So what that tells me is this issue can be cured with a software change. APR if you are reading this please help us out chime in and let us know if we can get this straightened out.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_Just talked to Unitronic and asked them about there s3 k04 software. He said they tuned there car to work with either a stock airbox or an aftermarket intake. There is a guy that works there that runs the s3 conversion and he is running a aftermarket intake without any issues. 
 
Brandon I looked at your logs the EGT gets hot in the upper RPM range with that aftermarket CAI and its slamming shut the TB IMO.
I would log EGT and MAF reading with CAI and stock intake and compare there differences .








Bob.G
edit to add:
p.s. APR software/ tunning from my experence is very senstive to MAF reading .


_Modified by rracerguy717 at 1:41 PM 4-20-2009_


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
Brandon I looked at your logs the EGT gets hot in the upper RPM range with that aftermarket CAI and its slamming shut the TB IMO.
I would log EGT and MAF reading with CAI and stock intake and compare there differences .







Bob.G

Will do Bob! thanks for looking at the logs.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: All s3 k04 kits chime in please. (kayaker10)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kayaker10* »_I'm running the complete AWE K04 kit with a carbonio intake. Very smooth and strong through the entire rpm range. No fuel cuts or missfires. 

good to hear, thanks for posting up. Im trying to get as much feedback as possible.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 4, 2007)

There are no software changes being made whatsoever that give people the ability to run whatever intake they choose. That's simply not possible!
The way this works is quite simple. The MAF produces a voltage based on the amount of air (and the temperature of the air) flowing across the sensor. This is fixed, it can not be changed. Once a voltage signal is sent to the ECU a look up table is used to correlate the voltage to a mass air flow value (kg/hr, g/s, etc.). This look up table has been defined by the manufacturer to work with the original MAF housing's cross-sectional area, shape and flow straightener. When ANY of these three things are changed, it WILL affect the relationship between MAF voltage and MAF reading. There is no way around this. When we tune Stage 3 cars we have to make significant changes to the software to account for the new MAF housing not only being larger but also being round, not oval, and having a different flow straightener.
So, to summarize, if we were to make an aftermarket intake work (which we could), customers who used the stock intake or any other intake that utilizes the stock MAF housing would have issues. The bottom line is if you want your car to run properly, you have to use the stock MAF housing.
There are customers using aftermarket intakes that currently have no problems. The key word there is currently! It could be that one car will never see an issue whereas another car will experience issues immediately. This could be based on slight differences in the hardware that cause different flow characteristics. None the less, the car and the tuning are designed to work with a specific MAF housing. I completely agree that the stock air box is restrictive (although it's mostly the stock filter) but I encourage every FSI owner (even if they don't want a Carbonio) to retain the stock MAF housing and flow straightener by whatever means necessary.



_Modified by [email protected] at 7:47 AM 4-21-2009_


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

Thank you for the great explanation on this. I know Arin has spoken about a intake you guys are working on. Do you have any info on this setup and how the car will be affected. If you guys are planning on def making a intake that is compatible with the s3 conversion then i would love to just wait it out. I also heard that this might be on the back burner so any more info on that product would be helpful as well for those of us that are against using the stock airbox and just want a product that works well and is compatible with the kits we just spent so much money on. Thanks again Joel for the excellant explanation.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
There are customers using aftermarket intakes that currently have no problems. The key word there is currently!

Any hints on which intakes you may have heard that people are having luck with?


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Will your new intake for the fsi (the one coming out soon) work with software for k04 apr cars?


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: (lour32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_Will your new intake for the fsi (the one coming out soon) work with software for k04 apr cars?

SHHH that IS the secret intake....
The stumble/break up is absolutely due to a bad MAF reading. I had a code set everytime I tool it above 6500 rpms with the evoms. I never before or since have had the code with the stock airbox. I have heard of a few cars running othr intakes with the S3/ed 30 APR kit but they are very few and they probably just got lucky or may not even know there is a problem. I would like to log the MAF on one of these cars and see what is really going on.


_Modified by Uber-A3 at 10:06 PM 4-20-2009_


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (Uber-A3)*


----------



## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: (lour32)*

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4348853


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

worst case i will just change my filter in my stock air box and just pray that APR gets on this new intake.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (08 passat turbo)*

Can't have EJ DV relocation! Have to find other solution!!


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

I have no idea if this solution is even feasible, but what if you guys were to cut the MAF section out of the OEM Air Box and connect it inline with your FOS intakes? I know silicone is pliable, but not sure if it's pliable enough to be clamped around the oval shape of the OEM MAF section.


----------



## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_I have no idea if this solution is even feasible, but what if you guys were to cut the MAF section out of the OEM Air Box and connect it inline with your FOS intakes? I know silicone is pliable, but not sure if it's pliable enough to be clamped around the oval shape of the OEM MAF section.

i wouldnt use silicone...IF!!! someone was to try this i would go with jb weld. i just dont see the silicone adhering to the metal and plastic


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_worst case i will just change my filter in my stock air box and just pray that APR gets on this new intake.

This is what you need for the stock air-box , the K&N frame takes up and blocks the opening when using there drop in.







Bob.G
http://www.itgfilters.net/prod...Id=17


----------



## kayaker10 (Jan 10, 2006)

*Re: All s3 k04 kits chime in please. (Branman)*

Keith (APR) was correct about running the carbonio or at least the new filter with the stock box. No matter how much you poo poo the carbonio over the filter on a stick, it works with only minimal differences to other intakes without all the drama. I have experienced none of the issues you all have with other after market intakes. No fuel cuts, missfires, or other crap. It pulls smooth and strong up the the new 7200 redline. Does it cost me a pony or two, maybe, but i want a smooth daily driver that kicks but







I'll post an update later this week on my full AWE K04 kit once I have the GIAC DSG flash and new Jetex exhaust installed this Wed. 
There are a lot of APR lovers on this forum. Why don't you trust what they sell for an intake to compliment their kit? I understand APR is working on their own intake for the bigger turbos, but in the meantime, try a carbonio. I also like the quieter intakes. 


_Modified by kayaker10 at 3:30 PM 4-20-2009_


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*

So willthis cause a problem when a K03 switches to an aftermarket CAI? I just dont see how going from K03 to K04 will cause this with the CAI. I know a bigger MAF tube will cause probs cuz Ive had that on my 1.8T and when I went back to stock size all good. But I am running the Neuspeed with my K03 and no probs, so will I be looking forward to probs in the future?


----------



## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: (sTTeve)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sTTeve* »_So willthis cause a problem when a K03 switches to an aftermarket CAI? I just dont see how going from K03 to K04 will cause this with the CAI. I know a bigger MAF tube will cause probs cuz Ive had that on my 1.8T and when I went back to stock size all good. But I am running the Neuspeed with my K03 and no probs, so will I be looking forward to probs in the future?

did u read the whole thread? the op is having a problem with his APR K04 software and the aftermarket intake...when he puts the stock airbox back everything runs fine....


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (08 passat turbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *08 passat turbo* »_
i wouldnt use silicone...IF!!! someone was to try this i would go with jb weld. i just dont see the silicone adhering to the metal and plastic

I meant a silicone coupler hose Vic.







I know it would not look pretty at all, but it might be allow the end user to implement a FOS intake design with the oval MAF section.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_
This is what you need for the stock air-box , the K&N frame takes up and blocks the opening when using there drop in.







Bob.G
http://www.itgfilters.net/prod...Id=17

good lookin out Bob http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: All s3 k04 kits chime in please. (kayaker10)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kayaker10* »_Keith (APR) was correct about running the carbonio or at least the new filter with the stock box. No matter how much you poo poo the carbonio over the filter on a stick, it works with only minimal differences to other intakes without all the drama. I have experienced none of the issues you all have with other after market intakes. No fuel cuts, missfires, or other crap. It pulls smooth and strong up the the new 7200 redline. Does it cost me a pony or two, maybe, but i want a smooth daily driver that kicks but







I'll post an update later this week on my full AWE K04 kit once I have the GIAC DSG flash and new Jetex exhaust installed this Wed. 
There are a lot of APR lovers on this forum. Why don't you trust what they sell for an intake to compliment their kit? I understand APR is working on their own intake for the bigger turbos, but in the meantime, try a carbonio. I also like the quieter intakes. 

_Modified by kayaker10 at 3:30 PM 4-20-2009_

While the Carbonio does work great with the APR k04 there is still power gains to be made from a filter on a stick. I logged both the carbonio and evoms and noticed quite a bit of more air being metered with the evoms. I removed it however due to the problems it was causing. The carbonio is currently the best intake for the K04 Apr kit.


----------



## gtiiiiiiii (Mar 6, 2004)

*FV-QR*

That is a good point about why having a k04 is different than having a k03 if it's the intake that is changing things. My guess is perhaps the maf's limits are being reached in reference to air flow. I believe someone from APR had mentioned that the k04 is capable of flowing outside those limits, but it's unsafe and therefore not done with their tuning.
Perhaps the other intakes are allowing too much air in and the maf can't handle it?


----------



## mjptuning (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: (Yosh_Cupra)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Yosh_Cupra* »_I agree with Lou, you can't go wrong with the BSH kit! K04 GTnaaI with BSH = NO HASSLES! Tried and tested...

do you guys have a k04 gti with bsh kit in SA to compare with a k04 with forge cai...


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Once again, i feel obliged to pose the same question OVER AND OVER...
Why didn't ANY company come out with an intake that has an exact (oval) duplicate of the OEM MAF housing ??
Is it production costs ??Well i think most of us would be willing to pay an extra (reasonable fee) to get rid of any problem that have to do with MAF readings...
So then, why is it ???


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (GolfRS)*

so are we down to its the shape of the stock intake vs the aftermarket intake that is causing this? So why not make an oval shaped aftermarket to go with the kit? And why isnt it causing probs on the K03? And for that matter why didnt it cause probs on K04s before the 2.0T? Its kinda stange that we are hearing about this now when there are plenty of K04s out that seem to have no probs running aftermarket CAIs.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 30, 2007)

*Re: All s3 k04 kits chime in please. (Uber-A3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Uber-A3* »_
While the Carbonio does work great with the APR k04 there is still power gains to be made from a filter on a stick. I logged both the carbonio and evoms and noticed quite a bit of more air being metered with the evoms. I removed it however due to the problems it was causing. The carbonio is currently the best intake for the K04 Apr kit.

How can you believe the measurements you recorded if you don't know how the cross-sectional area of your EVOMS intake compares to the stock MAF housing? 
I can assure you this...the ECU doesn't know that the cross-sectional area has changed. All it knows is that it is getting a particular signal from the MAF sensor that is _supposed _to be correct for the given sensor and MAF housing combination. In addition, an air density change due to an intake air temperature change could also change the readings from the MAF sensor. Meaning that if you ran your test in different conditions, you should get different results even for the same MAF housing. 
I am not bashing you for your input here but your statement brought out an opportunity for me to make a point about the many threads I have seen in the past where people are logging with their new intakes but haven't considered how the test was being conducted and the fact that the MAF readings may be incorrect with their shiny new intake.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: All s3 k04 kits chime in please. ([email protected])*

Mike, is APR going to manufac. a intake for the 06-08 fsi K03's & K04's?


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

Mike,
Is there anyway for you to post a range for acceptiable g/s MAF readings for each individual stage? I think this would give APR users (w/ VagCom) a chance to see if there intake was performing up to the standards of the OEM intake readings.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_Mike,
Is there anyway for you to post a range for acceptiable g/s MAF readings for each individual stage? I think this would give APR users (w/ VagCom) a chance to see if there intake was performing up to the standards of the OEM intake readings.

Yeah that would be nice, although it would be just a far off comparison even for APR
users, let along other software/hardware combos...


----------



## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_
I meant a silicone coupler hose Vic.







I know it would not look pretty at all, but it might be allow the end user to implement a FOS intake design with the oval MAF section.

well be more specific ryan!! god man!! lol....yea i know what ur saying now...that would be a good idea. who cares about pretty? if i had a k04 all i would care about is the spanking imma give sum1, not how pretty my intake looked


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Yeah that would be nice, although it would be just a far off comparison even for APR
users, let along other software/hardware combos...









Yeah...but a baseline for all APR stages with the OEM intake (MAF housing) would give people an idea as to where they stand with their current hardware.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*

****! I just need something other than stock intake to work with my K04. This cutting/bucking sucks ass!


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

yeah man that is no good. all you guys running apr software with other kits are stuck.


----------



## [email protected]APR (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_all you guys running apr software with other kits are stuck.

Every software manufacturer is in the same boat.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (Branman)*

What are we to do? What power difference will we see going back to stock versus a intake that actually worked without problems?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (lour32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_What are we to do? What power difference will we see going back to stock versus a intake that actually worked without problems?

You'll see more power than you currently are seeing because the car will function properly. I unfortunately cannot theorize against an intake I haven't seen and tested.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Come on Arin tell us something on new intake for fsi?


----------



## jonnyc23 (Oct 5, 2006)

Revo Stage 2+ on a stock K04 Edition 30 with an Evoms intake and it runs fine, no problems what so ever..


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (jonnyc23)*

Is that Revo 2+ made for the K04 or is it for K03 software?


----------



## Yosh_Cupra (Jun 28, 2008)

*Re: (mjptuning)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mjptuning* »_
do you guys have a k04 gti with bsh kit in SA to compare with a k04 with forge cai...

Have done logs on a clients car with the setup...I have BSH kits in stock, you have k04 with Forge = can correlate dataset on ur vehicle to maintain integrity of dataset? Bru we can even do a writeup---I reckon that is a killer idea! Watch reckon Mal?


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Every software manufacturer is in the same boat. 

What do you mean? software in general or k04 software?


----------



## jonnyc23 (Oct 5, 2006)

*Re: (lour32)*

Thats Stage 2+ software made for a car that is already equipped with a K04 turbo, so S3/Cupra/Ed30 etc etc..
I dont see that would make any difference though really..
Good luck with getting it sorted out.. 
Jonny


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
You'll see more power than you currently are seeing because the car will function properly. I unfortunately cannot theorize against an intake I haven't seen and tested. 

I agree with Arin, I currenty have my stock air box on and the car is completely different. It even idles better. The car def has more power now that it is running properly.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: (lour32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_Is that Revo 2+ made for the K04 or is it for K03 software?

revo does have k04 specific software. The hardware is a little different because they are tuning with rs4 injectors.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (Branman)*

I think they tune for S3 injectors


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

they told me yesterday they use rs4 injectors. Unitronic told me there tune works with s3 injectors.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (Branman)*

I guess cars in europe that have K04 stock and using Revo software is different. Because those stock cars have S3 injectors.


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: (Branman)*

But for those who are running an after market and have no probs are probably not seeing the lose you were so they shouldnt have to switch back, only if they start having issues.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (sTTeve)*

who needs a maf, just write that biotch out the software


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*

there you go, that will do it. so then there would just be one map?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (lour32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_I guess cars in europe that have K04 stock and using Revo software is different. Because those stock cars have S3 injectors.

Yes but there are also K03s cars in Europe with K04 conversion and Revo software...


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

Revo in the USA only tunes K04's w/ RS4 injectors!!!


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
You'll see more power than you currently are seeing because the car will function properly. I unfortunately cannot theorize against an intake I haven't seen and tested. 

Arin somehow i don't see that...
You may get some benefit if the ECU sees/reads more air, but the final check is
being performed by the O2 sensor, and even if you aftermarket intake reads -30 g/s , 
it is still drawing in more air than you stock but at +30 g/s.
What this means is that if the O2 sensor reads a leaner condition with the
aftermarket intake, it will offer more fuel, hence make more power.
The problem is if the actual timing pull (if we accept that there is any, still open for discussion)
is robbing more power than what the aftermarket intake is making by sucking in more air than the OEM air box...


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (lour32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_Revo in the USA only tunes K04's w/ RS4 injectors!!!

Yes we have established that already.
What does that have to do with the MAF sizing and/or OEM box making more power.... ??


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

I was just refering to my situation because I have S3 injetors and if the intake problem wouldn't get fixed I would switch software from APR to .... , But I like the APR stuff so I am trying to find solution. I am going to unplug my MAF afterwork and see if the cutting/bucking stops as per Jeff ([email protected]) recommendation!!!


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (lour32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_I was just refering to my situation because I have S3 injetors and if the intake problem wouldn't get fixed I would switch software from APR to .... , But I like the APR stuff so I am trying to find solution. I am going to unplug my MAF afterwork and see if the cutting/bucking stops as per Jeff ([email protected]) recommendation!!!









Having S3 injectors with the K04 setup is probably more of a good thing than a bad one.
I highly doubt the injectors are the source of your problems.
What intake do you have BTW ??
Unplugging the MAF doesn't really do much in way of diagnosis.It just makes the car run
rich, and defaults to a "safe" map AFAIK.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
You'll see more power than you currently are seeing because the car will function properly.


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_Arin somehow i don't see that...









Let me restate that.
You'll probably see more power then you currently are seeing because the car will not be misfiring, bucking, and going bananas. Instead it will likely continue to make power.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

My problem is not using the stock intake as the APR recommends with there S3 K04 it!!!!


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Let me restate that.
You'll probably see more power then you currently are seeing because the car will not be misfiring, bucking, and going bananas. Instead it will likely continue to make power. 


Well if you put it that way maybe, but thats only referring to the cars that are having these
kind of problems.
My thinking around using the OEM MAF casing is actually what was stated above about "reading from the wrong point in the map", and having low timing issues/less power.
I don't have any "working" issues with my intake, and i made tons of power.
But i DO wanna work things as they should be working.


----------



## A[email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (lour32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_I would switch software from APR to ....

You're more than welcome to try that out, but unless the other software tuner is running MAFless software, or has a specific file for every variation of every maf ever created, ever, you'll probably run into the same issue.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_Well if you put it that way maybe, but thats only referring to the cars that are having these
kind of problems.

Yes, that's all I was talking about.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Thats why I said I in a few post up top "I like APR stuff and I am trying to find solution", meaning staying with APR software. like we talked about when I IM you a little while ago!!!


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (lour32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_My problem is not using the stock intake as the APR recommends with there S3 K04 it!!!!

I understand, but besides APR there is no other software provider that "recommends"
a specific intake.
Meanwhile, i highly doubt APR's software can't work as well as any other tuner's
software with aftermarket intake.Thats what adaptation is for.
Now...are you losing power ??Maybe...But until there is proof of that...you could
also be MAKING power...
Food for thought....


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Basically all we've seen is some customers had misfires. When they took off the intake and put on the OEM part, the car worked fine. That leads me to believe the hardware is not designed properly as we do not change anything related to the sizing of the MAF in the software. If the hardware is designed properly, it should work properly with our software. The software shouldn't be changed for something designed incorrectly.


----------



## EuroShowOff (Jan 29, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Basically all we've seen is some customers had misfires. When they took off the intake and put on the OEM part, the car worked fine. That leads me to believe the hardware is not designed properly as we do not change anything related to the sizing of the MAF in the software. If the hardware is designed properly, it should work properly with our software. The software shouldn't be changed for something designed incorrectly. 

not to thread jack, but i am currently running the older ko4 kit from apr and a neuspeed intake, do the same rules apply by APR standards to run the stock airbox? or can i continue with the neuspeed?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Does your car work? If so I don't think you have anything to worry about.


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Im not completely sure but I think the Neuspeeds piping and MAF section is OEM size, so that shouldnt be the problem. I do know from experience that chaging the size will effect things. I did that on my 1.8T TT. But its the same size so the readings should be accurate.
And again why does this effect K04s and not K03s? And why only some K04s?
Now from what I understand some vendors do have seperate files for different stages that include aftermarket CAIs. I beleive my current file was written with a 3 inch TBE and aftermarket CAI with stock K03.
So even though the aftermarket CAI is the same size piping wise could a less restrictive CAI the same size actually provide less restriction which means more air so the velocity on the MAF sensor is changed causing bad readings? This would make sense as to why some vendors do a file with the aftermarket CAI on.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (sTTeve)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sTTeve* »_Now from what I understand some vendors do have seperate files for different stages that include aftermarket CAIs.

Unless they have specified a specific intake, that's all marketing.


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

That may be true to some degree but if they do tune with a better flowing CAI (and/or TBE) then it would seem reasonable that the tune would incorporate the higher flowing air numbers and be closer to a tune without the same setup. So I would think a tune should be done on stock and aftermarket parts to handle both sides of the spectrum. I do know that with my tune I was told that it was done on the same setup as I am running (although not a K04 of course) so I guess that will help.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (sTTeve)*

Well guys I installed the stock airbox with a carbonio intake and the car is very smooth to redline no cutting /misfiring. So I guess the APR software is tuned only for the stock oval MAF housing w/ air screen. The car seems to be a little slower well not slower but seems bottled up because it does not have the eurosport CAI anymore. I think APR needs to come up with an open CAI intake for the K04 setups fast because they would be more free reving! Do you here this APR http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (lour32)*

Here is what I would try if I were you, if you have a GIAC tuner around I would stop by and ask them to test your car with their tune with your aftermarket intake and see if it does the same. That would be very interesting to see the results. I know they tune specific files for K03s but not sure about K04s.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (sTTeve)*

If I try another software as a trial I will lose APR software and I don't want that. I like APR software! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (lour32)*

well once you pay for a tune you always get updates free, just might have to pay some labor. But in the end how much are you losing by staying stock intake? Probably not much, but I still think you should be able to use aftermarket intakes on tunes. Again not flaming any company but so far I think only one tuner is having this problem. I too want it resolved as I am looking into a K04 soon and APR is a top runner just want to make sure this is resolved, plus I like that they can get rid of cat cel faults. Good luck and keep us posted.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (sTTeve)*

Well if APR every gets the CAI intake as they say - it should rock especiallly in carbon fiber w/bung for DV!!


----------



## ConsFast (May 21, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (lour32)*

lou, please explain what you mean by "bottled up". Thanks!

_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_Well guys I installed the stock airbox with a carbonio intake and the car is very smooth to redline no cutting /misfiring. So I guess the APR software is tuned only for the stock oval MAF housing w/ air screen. *The car seems to be a little slower well not slower but seems bottled up* because it does not have the eurosport CAI anymore. I think APR needs to come up with an open CAI intake for the K04 setups fast because they would be more free reving! Do you here this APR http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## mjptuning (Sep 25, 2007)

*Re: (Yosh_Cupra)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Yosh_Cupra* »_
Have done logs on a clients car with the setup...I have BSH kits in stock, you have k04 with Forge = can correlate dataset on ur vehicle to maintain integrity of dataset? Bru we can even do a writeup---I reckon that is a killer idea! Watch reckon Mal?

sure thing...we can do that to test and compare...


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (ConsFast)*

Feels like the cai tube reved quicker! The stock airbox seems to push less air in even with the carbonio intake! Maybe the computer has to adapt!


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: All s3 k04 kits chime in please. ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
How can you believe the measurements you recorded if you don't know how the cross-sectional area of your EVOMS intake compares to the stock MAF housing? 
I can assure you this...the ECU doesn't know that the cross-sectional area has changed. All it knows is that it is getting a particular signal from the MAF sensor that is _supposed _to be correct for the given sensor and MAF housing combination. In addition, an air density change due to an intake air temperature change could also change the readings from the MAF sensor. Meaning that if you ran your test in different conditions, you should get different results even for the same MAF housing. 
I am not bashing you for your input here but your statement brought out an opportunity for me to make a point about the many threads I have seen in the past where people are logging with their new intakes but haven't considered how the test was being conducted and the fact that the MAF readings may be incorrect with their shiny new intake. 


I understand that now and wasn't aware that I wasn't comparing apples to apples. This was and is the only means of comparsion that I had other than the trusty butt dyno.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: All s3 k04 kits chime in please. (Branman)*

I miss my CAI intake!!!







This stock airbox sucks!!!


----------



## ConsFast (May 21, 2007)

*Re: All s3 k04 kits chime in please. (lour32)*

Would you rather live with the misfires from you CAI?

_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_I miss my CAI intake!!!







This stock airbox sucks!!!


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: All s3 k04 kits chime in please. (ConsFast)*

I know it runs better with the stock airbox but even with the cutting/missing that it had with the CAI, it still seemed faster!


----------



## ConsFast (May 21, 2007)

*Re: All s3 k04 kits chime in please. (lour32)*

Uhmm, how come AWE's kit will work with aftermaket intakes but APR's kit does not? Am I reaching the wrong conclusion?


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: All s3 k04 kits chime in please. (ConsFast)*

Well according to APR they worked there software around the stock MAF housing, so switching to a different intake w/ a different size, shape and no air screen does not work with there software. I do not know how other tuners do the software but I do not know if others here on this board are having trouble as well.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

well im dynoing my car tonight to see if the stock airbox is enough to make over 300whp.


----------



## ConsFast (May 21, 2007)

*Re: (Branman)*

I'v heard this debate before; your dyno may prove nothing bro; just do it for your own reasons.
However let us know when you create an air straightener that works with your APR S3 Conversion kit.

_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_well im dynoing my car tonight to see if the stock airbox is enough to make over 300whp.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

yeah i am mainly going to see what it makes. The guy who is dynoing my car is gonna look at my intake for me. He said he deals with these issues alot and is gonna see if he can make one to work. I report back later tonight after i get home.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

has there even been any apr s3/ed30 kits dyno yet?


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: (Branman)*

Again I think the solution is for tuners to do a file with stock stuff and a file with aftermarket stuff. And a particular CAI probably wont matter as long as it is higher flowing and the tune is for it. I know GIAC tunes this way or atleast they say they do. On the TTs the intake is round but I guess the VWs are oval? So the neuspeed intake is the same MAF size, shape and doesnt come with a screen but they tune with it and all seems good. And I know Im still K03 but I havent heard from any K04s with their tune having this prob, I could be wrong but just havent heard. Again I say try another tuner and if it still does it then we know. IMO.
Oh and Im not saying the Neuspeed is the one to use but that if its tuned with it and most CAIs are about the same then others the same size and shape should work too.


_Modified by sTTeve at 12:55 PM 5-6-2009_


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_has there even been any apr s3/ed30 kits dyno yet?

yeah a bunch. Mine put down 286whp 274wtq on 93 hp. Without the fmic in 85 degree weather. I did a baseline with the stock ko3 and same mods like exhaust, dp and intake and it put down 189 whp 212wtq


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (sTTeve)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ConsFast* »_Uhmm, how come AWE's kit will work with aftermaket intakes but APR's kit does not? Am I reaching the wrong conclusion?

Every tuner will have the same issues as us unless they completely disable the MAF.

_Quote, originally posted by *sTTeve* »_Again I think the solution is for tuners to do a file with stock stuff and a file with aftermarket stuff. And a particular CAI probably wont matter as long as it is higher flowing and the tune is for it. 

No. Here's the issue. If the cross sectional area of the MAF is not identical to stock then the readings will not be correct. If the MAF cross sectional area differs from intake to intake, within the same brand, make and model, as well as from company to company, it's impossible to write a software fix for every option unless every intake is examined on a case by case basis. Even on a case by case basis, there's no software solution in the world, other than disabling the MAF, that will fix some design epic fails. Furthermore, no one should write software to fix some other companies epic fail.
Bottom line, if your car works with the factory intake, and doesnt with your aftermarket intake, rip that crap out of your engine bay and send it back.


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_
has there even been any apr s3/ed30 kits dyno yet? 


Independent dyno by a guy down Florida:








Independent dyno by another customer:


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Well just got back from the dyno and im not happy with the result. I am actually trying not to freak out at the moment. Here is my dyno run from tonight with my dyno run on the stock turbo. This was on the same dyno both times. There is almost no increase at all. APR HELP PLEASE 










_Modified by Branman at 7:57 PM 5-6-2009_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

You're 100% sure you put the turbo on?


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

110% sure. something just doesnt make sense here. We did 4 pulls and all of them were just like this one. I even put the car back into stock and the back into 93 mode and the same result.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Yeah, I saw you were burned on 4/13 and you have the exact same box code as me. I just need to make sure you haven't been reburned at any point.
Could you send me those winpep dyno runs if you have them?


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

I sent the files Arin


----------



## uber_mkv (Oct 23, 2008)

*Re: (Branman)*

does the car feel faster? maybe something is wrong with the dyno?


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

I think it does but it might be the lag that makes it feel different. I never really thought it was a night and day difference like everyone says though. The dyno is fine i did 4 runs and all were exactly the same.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (Branman)*

I am defintley getting a dyno done now! My car does feels alot faster then the stage2+ I had before. We will find out!


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (lour32)*

talk to ed at forcefed lou you can prob stop down their saturday and use the dynojet


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

Yeah im curious what your car puts down


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (Branman)*

I was on AWE site and they even encourage to use a cold air intake on there K04 kit to add 10hp and 11 torque. How does GIAC tune the CAI on the K04!!!!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (lour32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_How does GIAC tune the CAI on the K04!!!!

































_Modified by [email protected] at 8:58 AM 5-7-2009_


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

well to update whats going on apr is asking me to log some things to see whats happening. I hope this gets resolved fast cus it really sucks driving around knowing my $4400 turbo kit is not making my car any faster than when i was on stock turbo.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Arin I am just saying AWE stats w/ a CAI they made more power with the K04 kit. So they must of tuned to a specific CAI, correct. Because you said a while back that you have to have specific tune for every intake.

_Modified by lour32 at 10:36 AM 5-7-2009_


_Modified by lour32 at 10:37 AM 5-7-2009_


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: (lour32)*

I would think they put one on and hook up the diag machine and tweek and tune from the readings they get just like other aspects of the tune get tweeked.
I know for my GIAC tune (on a k03) they did the tune with a 3 inch TBE and the Neuspeed CAI, exactly what I have so all is good. Doesnt seem hard to me, and again most CAIs are about the same so others should work too.
Think about it why didnt the 1.8T K04 upgrades do this? That was just as big of a jump in air intake from their K03 to K04 as ours is. Just seems wierd.
Also, I was thinking that GIAC uses a different fuel injector so just going down and getting their tune might not work.


_Modified by sTTeve at 10:50 AM 5-7-2009_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (lour32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_Arin I am just saying AWE stats w/ a CAI they made more power with the K04 kit. So they must of tuned to a specific CAI, correct. Because you said a while back that you have to have specific tune for every intake.

*IF THE CROSS SECTIONAL AREA ON THE NEW INTAKE IS NOT IDENTICAL TO STOCK, AND/OR IF THE DESIGN OF THE INTAKE IS CAUSING INCORRECT MAF READINGS, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT CAR YOU PUT IT ON, IT WILL NOT OPERATE PROPERLY.*
-------
On our stage 3 kit, we use a massive 4 inch MAF housing. This is incredibly different than stock. Because of this, we need to change setting in the software to reflect this change in the cross sectional area. This would be equivalent to you saying 'APR HAS TUNED FOR A CAI'.
If a stage 3 customer decided he didn't want the APR MAF housing, and threw in any intake on the market with a different side MAF housing, THE CAR WOULD NOT RUN PROPERLY.
Saying these other companies are 'TUNING FOR A CAI' is bunk. If they are changing the cross sectional area of the MAF housing, then every intake would require an identical cross sectional area. Because of this the stock setup would no longer function properly. So far we have seen many of the same intakes, from the same companies, having slightly different MAF cross sectional areas. This is not good since this cross sectional are is crucial. So again, saying they tuned for a CAI is totally bunk. 

_Quote, originally posted by *sTTeve* »_Doesnt seem hard to me, and again most CAIs are about the same so others should work too.

Size is critical. Any deviation will cause an error. 

_Quote »_
Think about it why didnt the 1.8T K04 upgrades do this? That was just as big of a jump in air intake from their K03 to K04 as ours is. Just seems wierd.


The difference between 1.8T K03 to K04 and 2.0T K03 to K04 is huge. The 2.0T K04 is not NOT a tiny upgrade. The 1.8t K04 is a tiny upgrade.


_Modified by [email protected] at 11:10 AM 5-7-2009_


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Arin, so what you are saying is that if a certain company tuned one specific car with one specific CAI the software tune is only good for that car and that specific CAI, correct?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Exactly.

Even if someone bought the same intake from the same company there may be differences between the two due to manufacturing tolerances and many other variables. In those cases, the readings between the two would be different and incorrect.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

logs are sent in so we shall see.


----------



## Erik04gti (Sep 28, 2004)

*Re: (Branman)*

i just gotta change my shorts know!!!


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

haha thanks for going and workin the computer for me and staying on cop lookout...lol


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Looks like a boost leak.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

hmmm where should i start because as far as i know the car had zero issues before i installed the this kit. Maybe the increased boost from the kit caused an issue.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

I dont like that boost spike either.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

the car pulls some timing right at the boost spike it seems also.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_I dont like that boost spike either. 

You should. That overshoot is what gets the car moving off the line quickly.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

it does for about 2 seconds and i can feel the power drop off instantly and the boost gauge reads 19psi until redline where it tapers back to about 15-16psi. Does this sound normal or maybe another indication of an issue


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

It's pretty clear you have a leak which is why everything seems a bit strange.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

When i sent the logs before why wasnt this picked up on then. The car doesnt seem any less powerful then it did before.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Your throttle plate was closing, so boost pressure appeared temporarily higher than actual.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

gotcha, because of the intake


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Arin I completly understand the size issuse, I even stated in the beginning that I had changed the size of my MAF on my 1.8T and it didnt run. What I am saying is that there are companies out there that make CAIs the same size as stock and if the car is tuned with that size CAI then all should be good and if you use a CAI that is the same size then it should work cuz the new tune is tweek to deal with the changed air flow (just like you did with your Stage 3). Im not sure but I dont think that these aftermarket CAIs even use screens so that shouldnt change things. But if what you say is true then why doesnt this affect the K03 when you change to an aftermarket CAI? It cant be cuz the K04 pulls in a little more air the the K03. I dont know the answer to this whole delima but again I havent heard of any other K04s with other tunes have this prob thats why I said maybe try another and see what happens, atleast that would confirm or not confirm the tuner side of the house.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

paypal me 900 bucks and i will go try it. You dont even have an s3 kit what are you so worried about. APR designed the kit to use the stock airbox and everyone that has put the stock airbox back on has gotten rid of those issues. Now dont get me wrong it would have been nice to know before hand, but if you dont like it I would suggest getting another kit.


----------



## ConsFast (May 21, 2007)

*Re: (Branman)*

play nice guys; we are all seeking a solution.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (ConsFast)*

He is right APR uses the stock airbox, so we having APR software are doing the change and the cars are working fine now. It's thats great throttle response that I miss from having a CAI!


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: (sTTeve)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sTTeve* »_ It cant be cuz the K04 pulls in a little more air the the K03. I dont know the answer to this whole delima but again I havent heard of any other K04s with other tunes have this prob thats why I said maybe try another and see what happens, atleast that would confirm or not confirm the tuner side of the house.

It is because the K04 pulls more air and this creates more turbulence and incorrect readings. If I leave my car in unchipped mode with the Evoms it won't throw the implausible MAF code ever. As soon as put it in any chipped mode it will start throwing codes. It has to be the extra air the K04 is pulling otherwise stg 1 or 2 ko3 cars would be setting the code and they don't. Simple process of elimination tells you that there is a conflict between hardware and software for a k04 equipped car. Not blaming either party just a conflict of the two.


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: (Uber-A3)*

The amount of air difference bewtween the 2 really isnt that much and putting a car from stock to chipped isnt puliing more air in one mode as compared to the other. The turbo will pull air to its limit in any mode. But I agree there is a mis match between the MAF sensor and the software which is why I think it needs to be tuned with a CAI. Again no other K04s with other tuners have come on here with this prob that I know of. But in the end are you losing much power? No so its not a big lose just a little annoyance I guess for those that cant use their CAI now. Im sure the K04 with stock is still way better than the K03 with CAI so that wont stop me from getting the K04 kit soon but I think I will stay with GIAC since I have them now and they are the closest.


----------



## ConsFast (May 21, 2007)

*Re: (sTTeve)*

So is that how you roll? Just because APR's kit is limited to the stock intake with the Carbonio scoop cup you want to take your business to GAIC who's kit allows you to use after maket intakes?








Well next time just say so cuz we don't buy your <loser voice> "but they are closer to me" excuse.








/jk

_Quote, originally posted by *sTTeve* »_The amount of air difference bewtween the 2 really isnt that much and putting a car from stock to chipped isnt puliing more air in one mode as compared to the other. The turbo will pull air to its limit in any mode. But I agree there is a mis match between the MAF sensor and the software which is why I think it needs to be tuned with a CAI. Again no other K04s with other tuners have come on here with this prob that I know of. But in the end are you losing much power? No so its not a big lose just a little annoyance I guess for those that cant use their CAI now. Im sure the K04 with stock is still way better than the K03 with CAI so that wont stop me from getting the K04 kit soon but I think I will stay with GIAC since I have them now and they are the closest.


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: (ConsFast)*

I just did say so and its nothing against APR as I think they make good products on a whole but I already have GIAC and they are closer like I said in the post. Some like APR, some like GIAC, some like Revo, so sue us.


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: (sTTeve)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sTTeve* »_The amount of air difference bewtween the 2 really isnt that much and putting a car from stock to chipped isnt puliing more air in one mode as compared to the other. The turbo will pull air to its limit in any mode. But I agree there is a mis match between the MAF sensor and the software which is why I think it needs to be tuned with a CAI. Again no other K04s with other tuners have come on here with this prob that I know of. But in the end are you losing much power? No so its not a big lose just a little annoyance I guess for those that cant use their CAI now. Im sure the K04 with stock is still way better than the K03 with CAI so that wont stop me from getting the K04 kit soon but I think I will stay with GIAC since I have them now and they are the closest.

Dude I don't know what more proof you need. I could show up to your house give you a ride and you still wouldn't believe it. I have logged it it is a huge difference.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (ConsFast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ConsFast* »_Just because APR's kit is limited to the stock intake

*Our kit or software is not limited to the stock intake.* It will work with any aftermarket intake that is designed correctly.
Look at it this way. Your car is designed to run on round wheels. If you put square wheels on the car, it will not run correctly. This is not VW's fault.


----------



## ConsFast (May 21, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

So which after-maket intake do you considered designed correctly? Just on this thread alone folks have reported problems with Neuspeed's, Evoms', & Eurojet's intakes. Please let me know cuz I'll be interested in that intake. BTW, did you or your engineers successfully test an after-maket intake on this kit. If so, which one?
Also, what is the maximum gallons of air per second the APR S3 conversion kit will recognize as recorded by the MAF?
Thanks for your responses Arin and sorry for so many questions but I really want to understand my options besides the oem air box.

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
*Our kit or software is not limited to the stock intake.* It will work with any aftermarket intake that is designed correctly.
Look at it this way. Your car is designed to run on round wheels. If you put square wheels on the car, it will not run correctly. This is not VW's fault.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (ConsFast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ConsFast* »_So which after-maket intake do you considered designed correctly? Just on this thread alone folks have reported problems with Neuspeed's, Evoms', & Eurojet's intakes. Please let me know cuz I'll be interested in that intake.
 
This thread has proven they are all flawed. 
If the MAF cross sectional area is different = Fail.
If the MAF sees too much turbulence = Fail.
If the MAF is not angled correctly = Fail.

_Quote »_BTW, did you or your engineers successfully test an after-maket intake on this kit. If so, which one?

The carbonio does not mess with the MAF housing. It works. 

_Quote »_
Also, what is the maximum gallons of air per second the APR S3 conversion kit will recognize as recorded by the MAF?


The same as stock. 
We don't change the value. 
We don't dumb it down. 
We don't disable it.


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: (ConsFast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ConsFast* »_So which after-maket intake do you considered designed correctly? Just on this thread alone folks have reported problems with Neuspeed's, Evoms', & Eurojet's intakes. Please let me know cuz I'll be interested in that intake. BTW, did you or your engineers successfully test an after-maket intake on this kit. If so, which one?


I have asked Mike this before and they said that they never tried another CAI with this kit. I guess since they don't sell any other brand than Carbonio it didn't make sense to try to start developing tunes for other brands. Which I can totally understand but it would be nice to have an option but might not be feasible for APR to develop. I mean Even if they tune for a filter on a a stick some people will still bitch that they don't have a program for xxx brand or now my xxx brand is useless after upgrading to the K04. 
I wonder if the real S3 in Europe can be run with a chip and aftermarket CAI. They do use the same MAF.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (Uber-A3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Uber-A3* »_
I have asked Mike this before and they said that they never tried another CAI with this kit. I guess since they don't sell any other brand than Carbonio it didn't make sense to try to start developing tunes for other brands. Which I can totally understand but it would be nice to have an option but might not be feasible for APR to develop. I mean Even if they tune for a filter on a a stick some people will still bitch that they don't have a program for xxx brand or now my xxx brand is useless after upgrading to the K04. 


Since we've already seen two intakes from the same company can be different, there's no way to 'tune' for each intake unless you have 100000000 tunes for each intake that comes off the assembly line. Even then, if there are other factors that are messing up the readings, you can tune till you're blue in the face and you still will not be making it correct. 

_Quote »_
I wonder if the real S3 in Europe can be run with a chip and aftermarket CAI. They do use the same MAF.

Yup. It's the same. Nothing's changed.


----------



## ConsFast (May 21, 2007)

What do you all think about runing the car without the MAF plugged-in. What are the advantages and disadvantages?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

It's your car... I guess you can do what ever you want.


----------



## ConsFast (May 21, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Play nice Arin. I am only seeking information. Anyone with information on my question please chime in. Thanks!
What do you all think about runing the car without the MAF plugged-in. *What are the advantages and disadvantages?*


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (ConsFast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ConsFast* »_Play nice Arin. I am only seeking information. Anyone with information on my question please chime in. Thanks!
What do you all think about runing the car without the MAF plugged-in. *What are the advantages and disadvantages?*


Keeping information from the ECU, what do you think?


----------



## ConsFast (May 21, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (DK_GTI_racer)*

What are the advantages and disadvantages of running without the MAF plugged-in? Maybe this could be an option for folks who invested in APR's S3 conversion kit for the MKV but don't want to run the OEM air box.



_Modified by ConsFast at 2:47 PM 5-11-2009_


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (ConsFast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ConsFast* »_What are the advantages and disadvantages of running without the MAF plugged-in? Maybe this could be an option for folks who invested in APR's S3 conversion kit for the MKV but don't want to run the OEM air box.
_Modified by ConsFast at 2:47 PM 5-11-2009_

I tought i answer that one, but here goes - when you keep ecu from knowing the amount of air being sucked in by the turbo, you are blindfolding the ecu, wich means when something does go wrong with either boostleak etc the car wont know it and still just run a map program - very dangerus, and you would also need a mafless sw file - its just not a very wise idea - if you wont something other then the stock airbox, get a induction kit from carbonio, bmc or something simular - but i bet the limits in stock airbox is very small and running without a maf is not the answer no matter what.....


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (ConsFast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ConsFast* »_What are the advantages and disadvantages of running without the MAF plugged-in? Maybe this could be an option for folks who invested in APR's S3 conversion kit for the MKV but don't want to run the OEM air box.


Let me rewrite that:

What are the advantages and disadvantages of running without the MAF plugged-in? Maybe this could be an option for folks who invested in *any* S3 conversion kit *that doesn't dumb down the ECU* for the MKV *and want to run an intake that's not designed correctly.*


----------



## ConsFast (May 21, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Say whatever you like Arin, but I am a customer, I have the APR S3 converstion kit installed and it does not work correctly without use of the OEM airbox. So far, all intakes utilized with the APR S3 conversion kit (i.e. evoms, neuspeed, eurosport, etc.) without incorporting the OEM airbox have problems at high RPM, lots of misfires and popping sound or backfires. Please be an honest salesman and understand things from a customer's perspective.
BTW, you've always been a nice guy, what's happening to you? This is not rocket science my friend. Moreover, the APR S3 conversion kit for the MKV is not a small investment. Have some sympathy.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Let me rewrite that:

What are the advantages and disadvantages of running without the MAF plugged-in? Maybe this could be an option for folks who invested in *any* S3 conversion kit *that doesn't dumb down the ECU* for the MKV *and want to run an intake that's not designed correctly.*

I am stepping into this a bit late but what exactly are you saying here?
Is your statement to suggest that the K04 pulls more air then the MAF can read? Is it that all intakes on the market cause issues on the cars? 
If the actual "reason" beyond "not designed correctly...someone elses fault" has been posted I apologize but this starting to get a bit crazy.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (ConsFast)*

Running without the MAF is not the end of the world its just not the best way to go about it. The ECM has maps that it will default too if the MAF is not present. They are on the conservative and rely heavily on the oxygen sensor. In my experience overall timing tends to be a bit lower however that may be negated by the increased flow. Real world to this application I have no comment on, but that should at least give you an answer. 
Best thing to do naturally is just log all your conditions, use your car as it sits now and make changes one at a time to see how things change.


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (ConsFast)*

have you tried the carbonio intakes?


----------



## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (ConsFast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ConsFast* »_What are the advantages and disadvantages of running without the MAF plugged-in? Maybe this could be an option for folks who invested in APR's S3 conversion kit for the MKV but don't want to run the OEM air box.
I dont have the S3 kit but i have ran my car without the MAF and there is just NO power, and NO timing advance (well which is power i guess lol) its putting your car into safe mode so to speak...wait a second i just had a REVOlation...REVO SUX and its not my car, sorry for the digression...just dont do it its not worth the power loss...Accept the fact that APR has the car tuned for the stock airbox, O AND IF ANYONE wats 2 see logs Stock airbox v P-Flow im pretty sure i pulled in more air with the stock airbox
_Modified by ConsFast at 2:47 PM 5-11-2009_

I dont have the S3 kit but i have ran my car without the MAF and there is just NO power, and NO timing advance (well which is power i guess lol) its putting your car into safe mode so to speak...wait a second i just had a REVOlation...REVO SUX and its not my car, sorry for the digression...just dont do it its not worth the power loss...Accept the fact that APR has the car tuned for the stock airbox, O AND IF ANYONE wats 2 see logs Stock airbox v P-Flow im pretty sure i pulled in more air with the stock airbox


----------



## ConsFast (May 21, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (DK_GTI_racer)*

The Carbonio intake uses the OEM air box. If possible, I do not want to run my expensive APR S3 conversion kit with the OEM air box which reduces throttle response when compared with evoms' or neuspeed's intake.

_Quote, originally posted by *DK_GTI_racer* »_have you tried the carbonio intakes?


----------



## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (ConsFast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ConsFast* »_The Carbonio intake uses the OEM air box. If possible, I do not want to run my expensive APR S3 conversion kit with the OEM air box which reduces throttle response when compared with evoms' or neuspeed's intake.


i totally disagree with the throttle response statement...i DEF feel more low end torque and more pull with the stock bix


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (ConsFast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ConsFast* »_Say whatever you like Arin, but I am a customer, I have the APR S3 converstion kit installed and it does not work correctly without use of the OEM airbox. So far, all intakes utilized with the APR S3 conversion kit (i.e. evoms, neuspeed, eurosport, etc.) without incorporting the OEM airbox have problems at high RPM, lots of misfires and popping sound or backfires. Please be an honest salesman and understand things from a customer's perspective.
BTW, you've always been a nice guy, what's happening to you? This is not rocket science my friend. Moreover, the APR S3 conversion kit for the MKV is not a small investment. Have some sympathy.

I'm not trying to not be nice. I don't know what to tell you other than your car works perfectly with the stock hardware, but doesn't function properly when you put something else intake on the car. I've explained what could be happening about 10 times now, but people keep saying "It's all APR's fault, change the software". It's not a software issue. I don't know what more you want me to say.









[edit]Remember, this is the internet. It's hard to read the tone of someones voice over the net. When I've written things in bold, red, or caps, it's because I've said it a bunch of times through the thread and it appears as if people were missing it. I just want people to see it.










_Modified by [email protected] at 3:44 PM 5-11-2009_


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (ConsFast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ConsFast* »_ reduces throttle response when compared with evoms' or neuspeed's intake.


That is BS and PR all in bowl, you dont get faster or better throttle response from not using the oem airbox...a turbo sucks air, its not NA engine...


----------



## ConsFast (May 21, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Thanks Phil. I appreciate your reponses.
Arin, keep us posted if APR creates a non-oem air box intake to work with APR's S3 conversion kit for the MKV. I'm already heavily invested in APR's products including the S3 conversion kit and therefore will wait to it to see if options become available. I will only lose on a trade at this point, but I which I knew this information before diving in.
Also I am a little disappointed with some of the information you keep posting showing a lack of understanding regarding the use of the OEM air box with APR's S3 conversion kit. I am seeking options that will not use the OEM air box. However you persist inaccurately that the OEM air box is not required with the kit although such has not been tested successfully.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I am stepping into this a bit late but what exactly are you saying here?
Is your statement to suggest that the K04 pulls more air then the MAF can read? Is it that all intakes on the market cause issues on the cars? 
If the actual "reason" beyond "not designed correctly...someone elses fault" has been posted I apologize but this starting to get a bit crazy. 

Arin is referencing the difficulties of maintaining the manufacturing tolerances of most aftermarket intakes that replace the oem maf housing.
We have measured several in house across many different manufacturers and have found large deviances, at least large in ECU terms. The ecu is expecting an exact cross sectional surface area of which the maf element receives its airflow. If too much of a deviation occurs, the ecu can get all kinda confused and minor to major running issues can result.
APR chose not to remake the maf housing for our intake offering due to the difficulties of maintaining these tolerances and we publicly announced these findings and relayed a warning to all manufacturers and customers interested in an intake with a remanufactured maf housing on these very forums.
Furthermore, this has been a very well known design requirement for aftermarket intakes since the day closed loop engine management strategies (use of mafs) were begun to be incorporated.
Look at other cars, previous and current generation, and how many intakes replace the maf housing? Its not unique to the 2.0T FSI aftermarket but is found alot more consistently. 1.8T's, 2.7T's, etc. nearly all other engines by VAG that use Bosch Motronic EMS don't typically have intakes that replace the maf housing readily available for these exact reasons.
The integration of the maf housing in the oem airbox spawned this new trend and we are now enjoying the pain of a chance that other companies have taken without doing the proper R&D.
Placement, size and shape of the MAF housing are critical to reliable engine operation.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (ConsFast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ConsFast* »_ However you persist inaccurately that the OEM air box is not required with the kit although such has not been tested successfully. 

Tis not a requirement to use the oem airbox at all. BUT, it is a requirement to use an aftermarket intake that properly sizes the cross sectional area of the housing that the maf element sits in, is placed in the intake stream at a suitable location and is of the proper shape.
You can use any aftermarket intake system you would like as long as it incorporates the proper size, location and placement of the MAF housing. Unfortunately, the way most aftermarket intakes are made, the size of the MAF housing is a crap shoot.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Placement, size and shape of the MAF housing are critical to reliable engine operation.

I agree whole heartedly. However what is making the K04 different then the K03 software? We have tested numerous products on your K03 software with very good results, yet per this thread on the K04 it seems to be totally different? 
My questions aren't meant as a call out, but the responses in here have been a bit crazy without something of substance stating what is actually different. Currently Im running a Revo K04 file on my GT30 setup and am not having this issue at all. What is the actual cause of the code and why is it specific to the K04 software? (Just for the record Id be running a GT30 file if one was available for me, that's a whole other story though) 
Again I may have missed it in the thread.. sorry if this has been covered.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Between the OEM software, APR K03 software and APR K04 software the size of the MAF has not changed. The problems reported are misfires which go away once the intakes are replaced with the OEM unit. No codes are being thrown.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I agree whole heartedly. However what is making the K04 different then the K03 software? We have tested numerous products on your K03 software with very good results, yet per this thread on the K04 it seems to be totally different? 
My questions aren't meant as a call out, but the responses in here have been a bit crazy without something of substance stating what is actually different. Currently Im running a Revo K04 file on my GT30 setup and am not having this issue at all. What is the actual cause of the code and why is it specific to the K04 software? (Just for the record Id be running a GT30 file if one was available for me, that's a whole other story though) 
Again I may have missed it in the thread.. sorry if this has been covered. 

Increased flow (larger turbo flowing more air) = increased turbulence. 
Dave


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I agree whole heartedly. However what is making the K04 different then the K03 software? We have tested numerous products on your K03 software with very good results, yet per this thread on the K04 it seems to be totally different? 
My questions aren't meant as a call out, but the responses in here have been a bit crazy without something of substance stating what is actually different. Currently Im running a Revo K04 file on my GT30 setup and am not having this issue at all. What is the actual cause of the code and why is it specific to the K04 software? (Just for the record Id be running a GT30 file if one was available for me, that's a whole other story though) 
Again I may have missed it in the thread.. sorry if this has been covered. 

I understand where you are coming from Phil and I would love to have the luxury of tasking our Engineering Dept. with discovering the exact specifics of the issue. However, from an Engineering perspective its very simple.
Car runs bad.
MAF housing is wrong.
Put proper MAF housing back in car.
Car runs great.
FWIW, Revo has a history of disabling maf related features with many of their cals.....


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

how many aftermarket cais remember to install a MAF screen/flow straightner?? if they dont, then thats where i think the problem is...both factory and APR installs those for a reason, just my 2 cents.


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (crew219)*

If you increase the air flow and the MAF gets a bad read, then it would not pertain only to the K04. If I add a higher flowing intake on my K03, Im getting more air, which you say is more turbulance so I should get these faults, but I dont. My MAF is looking for a reading tuned with the stock airbox but I have an aftermarket, so why no faults if Im getting more turbulant air (cuz Im actually tuned for more air). If the K04 is tweeked for this extra air then all should be good and again most intakes like neuspeed, evoms, etc and all basically have the same piping size and layout so all should be about the same air flow. So tune for one of these. Also is there anyone with other tunes having this problem on their K04s? Again Im not saying this is or isnt the prob but if no one else is having this prob then I would try another tune just to see what happens.
Honestly I have never heard of this prob till this thread. I went from a K03 to a GT2X (which is slightly bigger than the K04 on my 1.8T) and had Unitronic tune and used an aftermarket CAI and never had this prob.


_Modified by sTTeve at 5:39 PM 5-11-2009_


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (sTTeve)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sTTeve* »_If you increase the air flow and the MAF gets a bad read, then it would not pertain only to the K04. If I add a higher flowing intake on my K03, Im getting more air, which you say is more turbulance so I should get these faults, but I dont. My MAF is looking for a reading tuned with the stock airbox but I have an aftermarket, so why no faults if Im getting more turbulant air (cuz Im actually tuned for more air). If the K04 is tweeked for this extra air then all should be good and again most intakes like neuspeed, evoms, etc and all basically have the same piping size and layout so all should be about the same air flow. So tune for one of these. Also is there anyone with other tunes having this problem on their K04s? Again Im not saying this is or isnt the prob but if no one else is having this prob then I would try another tune just to see what happens.

For what reason do you think that you get more air from installing a cai? they are mostly show and no performance go - but mounting a much bigger turbo like the k04 turbo is on 2.0tfsi will great a hell of lot more turbolence then what you could ever pull out of a k03 - and when heavily tuned sw wise like APR does on that kit, its maxing the airflow of the turbo and turbolence is huge at this point without a proper flow straightner like factory unit...for some reason people see magic numbers and perfomance gains in cai´s...confast a few posts up also mentioned it was only up top he had misfires, wich is where the turbolence is greatest - thats the answer, no tune is made for this and that cai, but MAF will act differently and wrong with turbolence from nut using a flow straightner...


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (sTTeve)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sTTeve* »_If the K04 is tweeked for this extra air then all should be good and again most intakes like neuspeed, evoms, etc and all basically have the same piping size and layout so all should be about the same air flow. So tune for one of these. 

Steve, 
This is not how the system works, therefor what you have proposed will not work. What you're saying in theory sounds good, but since this is now how the system works, it just cannot be applied to this scenario.


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (DK_GTI_racer)*

so you dont think the aftermarket CAI with a bigger free flowing filter isnt allowing more air?







Then I guess aftermarkets performance exhausts arent allowing better flow either? And again I went to a bigger turbo on my 1.8T with what you call an aftermarket CAI that is the same as stock and got no probs and it was pulling more air than the K04.


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

May be true Arin, Im not saying that it is or isnt but I think that trying another tune just might solve this once and for all one way or another. Again I just never heard of this before this thread. So are you saying that tuning a car with an aftermarket CAI on doesnt do anything? (and this is not a smart ass question, its a true question)


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I understand where you are coming from Phil and I would love to have the luxury of tasking our Engineering Dept. with discovering the exact specifics of the issue. However, from an Engineering perspective its very simple.
Car runs bad.
MAF housing is wrong.
Put proper MAF housing back in car.
Car runs great.
FWIW, Revo has a history of disabling maf related features with many of their cals.....

I completely follow your logic but something doesn't add up to me. Not implying or suggesting, its your calibration and no one knows it better than you, however it doesn't pass my logic test. 
What G/S are the K04 kits pulling? Possible its pegging the sensor? If Revo does disable this safety feature, and you do not, and both kits are maxing out the sensor leading to this issue on yours with full protection then that would make sense. Have you seen this be the case? I dont look into the K04 stuff to much to know the details.


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (sTTeve)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sTTeve* »_so you dont think the aftermarket CAI with a bigger free flowing filter isnt allowing more air?







Then I guess aftermarkets performance exhausts arent allowing better flow either? And again I went to a bigger turbo on my 1.8T with what you call an aftermarket CAI that is the same as stock and got no probs and it was pulling more air than the K04.

Have you tested to see if the CAI FLOWS more then stock?! and what ever you experince is, its not the same as what can be achieved with k04, not to mention that the ECU on 1.8T is not at all the same, nor is the engine.....
i run absolutely stock airbox with s3+kit on 1.8T, and i have tried open filter on mine also - 0 gains, infact i lost 1hp with open filter...and exhaust is completly different and many gains to make with a better flowing exhaust...but this is a turbo engine it sucks the air it needs quite good from stock airbox.


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (DK_GTI_racer)*

Of course there has been test about the flow of stock and aftermarket filters, and they do allow more air flow, just as putting in ahigher flowing filter in the stock box does. You know this.
I think the question would be does the K03 need the extra air flow from a better filter?


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (DK_GTI_racer)*

and look at this way, APR dont have any problem running open filter or cai on stage 3 kit for the 2.0, but they also have an entirely different maf housing and the tune is designed for this maf housing, once you change maf housing, car will run crappy and its not sw fault...you can work around it in sw, but its not the proper way, and i bet that any aftermarket cai compared to the carbonio no matter if stock box is used or not will come short as to power gains.....


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (DK_GTI_racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DK_GTI_racer* »_ and the tune is designed for this maf housing, 

Ding Ding Ding. Tune for the new MAF readings.


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (sTTeve)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sTTeve* »_Of course there has been test about the flow of stock and aftermarket filters, and they do allow more air flow, just as putting in ahigher flowing filter in the stock box does. You know this.
I think the question would be does the K03 need the extra air flow from a better filter?

yeah filters do allow better flow for sure, but im disgussin the cais and stock airbox- i doubt that any perfomance gains is to be made or better driveabilty if you just "upgrade" to a cai, and you also need to change sw if the CAI´s using bigger MAF housing or design of that...the carbonio does not change anything other then just giving you what its suppose to, nothing more or less..you might not be able to see how the cai effect the ecu or flow with a k03, but when you push a k04 to the limits, a hole different story...


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (sTTeve)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sTTeve* »_
Ding Ding Ding. Tune for the new MAF readings.

Well seing they offer it as solution to fit the stock MAF housing, they have tuned it for exactly that or are you suggesting that everytime some other aftermarket vendor put a different sized CAI on the market, they should offer specific tune for that CAI? they offer Carbonio system that gives whatever you should expect from CAI and keeps stock airbox and piping -be happy for that and stop biggering.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (sTTeve)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sTTeve* »_May be true Arin, Im not saying that it is or isnt but I think that trying another tune just might solve this once and for all one way or another. 

What do you mean 'another tune'?
1. If the MAF housings cross sectional area is different than stock the readings will be inaccurate. The cross sectional area can be modified in the software as is the case with our stage 3 kit. Every stage 3 kit is identical. Every STOCK intake is identical. Changing this would require every setup to be identical or it would mess up the readings.
2. If the MAF is not positioned properly it will mess up the readings. This cannot be fixed with software.
3. If there is heavy turbulence over the MAF it will mess up the readings. This cannot be fixed with software.
1 is the only thing that can be adjusted in the software, however, every car must have an identical setup. Not a close to identical setup, it must be identical. 2 and 3 are equivalent to sticking your MAF in a cheeseburger and asking the tuner to tune for the cheeseburger. APR will not tune for cheeseburgers. 
So I ask again, what do you mean 'another tune'. How do you tune for something that's incorrectly designed, different between manufacturers and different between samples withing the same intake make and model?

_Quote »_
So are you saying that tuning a car with an aftermarket CAI on doesnt do anything? (and this is not a smart ass question, its a true question)

Adding an intake that's less restrictive will absolutely add power compared to a more restrictive setup. The caveat to that statement is the intake must be designed properly.


----------



## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (sTTeve)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sTTeve* »_so you dont think the aftermarket CAI with a bigger free flowing filter isnt allowing more air?







Then I guess aftermarkets performance exhausts arent allowing better flow either? And again I went to a bigger turbo on my 1.8T with what you call an aftermarket CAI that is the same as stock and got no probs and it was pulling more air than the K04.

i have logs that show the difference is def minimal and sumtimes the stock intake pulls in more air (gps)


----------



## GTi71184 (Mar 16, 2009)

*Re: All s3 k04 kits chime in please. (Branman)*

I have apr 1 and a k& N intake and its awesome could tell a difference and have no problems at all.


----------



## GTi71184 (Mar 16, 2009)

*Re: All s3 k04 kits chime in please. (GTi71184)*

the maf sensor can plug into the K&N air intake


----------



## GTi71184 (Mar 16, 2009)

*Re: All s3 k04 kits chime in please. (GTi71184)*

Another thing when i dropped the K&N in i get 1 to 2 extra boost PSI on my gage.


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 21, 2008)

Suprisingly, we had a customer from Mexico with Pirelli addition GTI show up running all crappy. It had an aftermarket intake, and the car was flashed in US by an APR dealer. After long diagnostics, we put the stock intake back on, car worked flawless. 
and it flies BTW, GO APR http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 805 (May 11, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*









"Since the stock FSI MAF is integrated into the factory airbox, APR developed a new housing that is sized according to engine displacement and maximum power output. The new cast housing allows the proper metering of the additional airflow and to minimize pressure losses. The cast aluminum housing is CNC machined to exacting tolerances and powder-coated to inhibit corrosion. A honeycomb style flow straightener is also added to prevent the MAF from seeing erroneous signals."
Can you guys incorporate this into your cai's?
Are they sold separately?


----------



## gtiiiiiiii (Mar 6, 2004)

*FV-QR*

Good info here I think, after you sort through the random bits of "info" from various people.
For a quick summary of everything in the thread for people who don't fee like reading it all, or don't understand what is being said, read this:
1. The k03 is not really capable of pulling in enough air to cause this issue with the current CAI's on the market because it would seem that the problem is exponential with air flow. So while the CAI's might not have the right MAF housing size, they are close enough that the error allowance of the MAF sensor at k03 air flow levels is able to manage with it.
2. The k04 is capable of pulling much more air through the intake. Now that exponential error gets worse the more air flow that is introduced. Whether it be turbulence or just the fact that the cross section isn't the right size, the problem has now become great enough to cause the car to malfuction. Misfiring and cel's may now ensue. 
3. The stage 3 does not do this because while it uses a different maf housing the sensor is tuned for this particular maf cross section size and the cross section does not differ between any two APR stage 3 maf housing.
4. You can not tune this out and maintain all safe guards because the problem is most likely physically coming from the maf housing not being the size that the maf sensor thinks it is.
5.a. Solution, use oem maf housing and wait for an aftermarket company to make a housing that is the same exact size as oem or somehow obtain a tune for the size of the maf housing you have.
5.b, Other solution. Find a way to extract the oem maf housing and install it on your cai =/


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I completely follow your logic but something doesn't add up to me. Not implying or suggesting, its your calibration and no one knows it better than you, however it doesn't pass my logic test. 
What G/S are the K04 kits pulling? Possible its pegging the sensor? If Revo does disable this safety feature, and you do not, and both kits are maxing out the sensor leading to this issue on yours with full protection then that would make sense. Have you seen this be the case? I dont look into the K04 stuff to much to know the details. 


I can tell you that if that is the case, the maf is getting pegged, the only to way to properly fix it is to change the maf housing to a larger diameter and rescale the maf tables accordingly such as we do with our Stage 3 kits.
If other software works with a pegged maf its because the tuner is turning off some dtc's and allowing the ecu to extrapolate its compensation and operating maps, what some people call "running off the maps" or "running off the tables". The ecu goes into open loop operation at that point and you've got engine control after ignition only based solely from primary o2 feedback.








My suggestion to aftermarket intake manufacturers that would like for their intakes to be compatible with our ED 30 S3 conversion packages would be to test a flow straightener as others have suggested and to verify their tolerance specs for maf housing surface area.


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Keith[email protected])*

so is there any danger to running off the map?


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (sTTeve)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sTTeve* »_so is there any danger to running off the map?

well, your ecu isn't applying fuel and timing based on incoming air anymore, its applying it based on the results of the ignition as presented by the primary o2.



_Modified by [email protected] at 9:43 AM 5-12-2009_


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
well, your ecu isn't applying fuel and timing based on incoming air anymore, its applying it based on the results of the ignition as presented by the primary o2.
_Modified by [email protected] at 9:43 AM 5-12-2009_

keith correct me if im wrong, but that would also mean that putting CAI+s etc on a car without MAF plugged in would be a useless mod, since the MAF cant tell the ecu of the extra amount of air being sucked in(if any), and only 02 sensor would be able to give off some unprecise measurement of this - wrong or dead on?


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I can tell you that if that is the case, the maf is getting pegged, the only to way to properly fix it is to change the maf housing to a larger diameter and rescale the maf tables accordingly such as we do with our Stage 3 kits.
If other software works with a pegged maf its because the tuner is turning off some dtc's and allowing the ecu to extrapolate its compensation and operating maps, what some people call "running off the maps" or "running off the tables". The ecu goes into open loop operation at that point and you've got engine control after ignition only based solely from primary o2 feedback.








My suggestion to aftermarket intake manufacturers that would like for their intakes to be compatible with our ED 30 S3 conversion packages would be to test a flow straightener as others have suggested and to verify their tolerance specs for maf housing surface area. 

I'm asking if the MAF housing is getting pegged, has no one checked for this yet?... if so then there is power being left on the plate. If not then there is something else going on. The logical assumption is the MAF is getting pegged and would like some clarification from either APR or a customer who has an aftermarket intake on their car.
The way to test this would be log the MAF reading starting from a low rpm. If the G/S stops increasing before redline, then there is the issue. The MAF is pegged throwing off the fuel and timing maps. 
We have in the past made flow straightened air intakes like the one below however we have never found a use for them in this application. Cost has also been prohibitive but in this case if its a need item then we have no trouble making them in sizes ranging from 2.5" - 4". I dont fully see this as a viable solution until there is more data showing exactly what it is that is occurring.


----------



## acespizee (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

I know this has nothing to do with the maf area but the Dbilas intake uses a panel filter to avoid turbulence and get a more linear flow of air. Maybe that maybe a much better option if you can afford it.


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (acespizee)*


_Quote, originally posted by *acespizee* »_I know this has nothing to do with the maf area but the Dbilas intake uses a panel filter to avoid turbulence and get a more linear flow of air. Maybe that maybe a much better option if you can afford it.

yeah the debilas system uses a proper maf housing with maf screen and also incoporate design with factory design in mind, just like you would get it with the carbonio system, what the debilas also has is complete pipe solution designed for k04 oem 30th edition GTI and not ko3.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

where can i get one, sign me up.


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_where can i get one, sign me up.

dbilas.com


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (DK_GTI_racer)*

The dbilas intake uses a MAF screen same as the OEM MAF? If so this might be what my APR K04 Passat is looking for!!! Can you guys confirm that the dbilas intake has all these features?


_Modified by lour32 at 11:52 AM 5-12-2009_


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (lour32)*

you still fighting the fact the the maf size may not be the exact same as oem


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: (DK_GTI_racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DK_GTI_racer* »_
dbilas.com









there is no place to order that i can see.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Lets see if we can get somebody to confirm MAF size? I think the OEM MAF circumference size is 2.62" I.D.
I think Bradley here on this forum has the dbilas intake!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (lour32)*

The OEM MAF is an oval.


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_
there is no place to order that i can see. 

Partnr.
01.020.440 TFSI K04

email
[email protected]
and price
439 euro or 595usd 
As with APR products - you pay for quality, but i would still go with the carbonio system.
Just because the carbonio does not have a big fancy bling bling size piping, does not mean it doesn´t get the job done, i bet it does -just look at the gains APR posted with it on their website.
Dont go looking for the greener grass, because it does not get any greener then what you get at opelika


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Arin, I just thought about it now! The dbilas intake could have same circumference but you are right it is definitley not oval like OEM! Sh.. 
I hope APR comes out with a CAI intake the meets up to OEM standards. I think with a well engineered exact like the OEM MAF the K04 will definitley be alot more powerfull with a tuned software made for the mass!!!


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

The dbilas intake is NOT oval-shaped like the OEM intake track. I have no idea if it has a screen built into it as there is no way to view that paricular pipe section of the intake (due to it's one-piece design...I own the first revision which was all one piece). With that said, on my sII+ my LTFT are -0.3 and 0.8 respectively and my g/s at redline are very consistent at 182-185.


----------



## acespizee (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (lour32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_Arin, I just thought about it now! The dbilas intake could have same circumference but you are right it is definitley not oval like OEM! Sh.. 
I hope APR comes out with a CAI intake the meets up to OEM standards. I think with a well engineered exact like the OEM MAF the K04 will definitley be alot more powerfull with a tuned software made for the mass!!!

I have the Dbilas and and the maf area is not oval but it shouldnt give you the turbelance effect. I have no idea if it will help you Ko4 guys as my Leon is a Ko3 car but it should help with the turbelance, and i also believe someone else with a Ko4 equipped leon some where on this forum runs a Dbilas and doesnt seem to have any probs but i think he has Revo but i could be wrong. I believe his name is DanGB.


_Modified by acespizee at 1:21 PM 5-12-2009_


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

I just PM'ed Pitbull on golfmkv.com in regards to a MAF screen since he picked up one the later revisions of the dbilas intake (2-piece) and should be able to see if one is present or not. Will post his response once received.
*No MAF Screen on the Dbilas Intakes*










_Modified by rbradleymedmd at 9:45 AM 5-13-2009_


----------



## Shazsta (Mar 9, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (acespizee)*

this guy has k04 + revo + dbilas intake and is having misfires at high RPMs
who wants to bet that its the same issue?
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4382213


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I'm asking if the MAF housing is getting pegged, has no one checked for this yet?... if so then there is power being left on the plate. If not then there is something else going on. The logical assumption is the MAF is getting pegged and would like some clarification from either APR or a customer who has an aftermarket intake on their car.
The way to test this would be log the MAF reading starting from a low rpm. If the G/S stops increasing before redline, then there is the issue. The MAF is pegged throwing off the fuel and timing maps. 
We have in the past made flow straightened air intakes like the one below however we have never found a use for them in this application. Cost has also been prohibitive but in this case if its a need item then we have no trouble making them in sizes ranging from 2.5" - 4". I dont fully see this as a viable solution until there is more data showing exactly what it is that is occurring. 











Phil,
If you would like us to test something for you please feel free to send a product and we'll do our best to provide results in a timely manner. Unfortunately, we don't keep cars around that use other companies' products very often for obvious reasons.
Running the data logs could be pretty simple for some ED 30 owners if they would like to and we will help them understand the logs and make a recommendation.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Phil,
If you would like us to test something for you please feel free to send a product and we'll do our best to provide results in a timely manner. Unfortunately, we don't keep cars around that use other companies' products very often for obvious reasons.
Running the data logs could be pretty simple for some ED 30 owners if they would like to and we will help them understand the logs and make a recommendation.

Naturally, I was more wondering if customers had sent in info to you or if one of the members in this thread would be able to take the logs requested. 
We can set around here and bench race for the next few weeks, or we can do something about it. The first step is figuring out what it is, the data log I requested would be the first thing I would do in trouble shooting.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Come on Phil







hook Keith up so we can get APR to find what solution there are for people running APR software?

_Modified by lour32 at 11:55 AM 5-13-2009_

_Modified by lour32 at 11:55 AM 5-13-2009_


_Modified by lour32 at 11:56 AM 5-13-2009_


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (lour32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_Come on Phil







hook Keith up so we can get APR to find what solution there are for people running APR software?


APR can hook themselves up, they dont need us doing anything. Im just trying to help you guys get the ball rolling on identifying the cause of the issue and if there is a need for us to make something we can. Even oval pipe.. which I really don't think is necessary but I guess we will find out.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

BSH should come out with something to accomodate the K04 crowd! I know you guys have an intake already with bung hole for DV solution, but maybe if the air screen is the problem the BSH just havw to incorporate air screen in there intake.


_Modified by lour32 at 12:23 PM 5-13-2009_


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

Whomever comes out with a solution that works properly with these cars i will def be one of the first in line to pick this up. I hate this stock engine cover. It makes me feel a little better that I put an ITG panel filter in there but i still would rather a better flowing intake.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Naturally, I was more wondering if customers had sent in info to you or if one of the members in this thread would be able to take the logs requested. 
We can set around here and bench race for the next few weeks, or we can do something about it. The first step is figuring out what it is, the data log I requested would be the first thing I would do in trouble shooting. 


I agree but the burden is not on APR. The burden is on intake manufacturers that have chosen to change/redesign a critical engine management component to insure this change won't affect their potential clients that wish to use it with our ED 30 Conversion.
APR's official position at this time is that these intakes are not designed consistently with the OEM component they are replacing and therefore are incompatible with OEM and APR calibrations.
APR is willing to explore other potential culprits such as pegged MAF readings in an attempt to provide service to our clients if any of our clients would like to present the required data logs.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

I would do the data logs but I traded my CAI for a carbonio intake and I am using the stock airbox again!! Come on Keith get APR to make a nice carbon fiber intake w/ bung for DV relocation as a add on for the Ed 30 kits!! Alot of people would bite http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

I would do this but i gotta wait till my back is better. I had a little accident at work and my car is gonna have to go on hold for a couple of days. Keith if you wanna email me some info on the logs you want to see I would be happy. I have a neuspeed intake that I can try. [email protected]


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: (Branman)*

If anyone with these issues, who has an intake and a vag com could please email me directly I will be happy to get the ball rolling and see if we can come up with a solution for you guys. Thanks.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

I dont have an BSH intake but would my neuspeed do?


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_I dont have an BSH intake but would my neuspeed do? 

As long as your having the issue I dont care what brand it is.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Lets get some before and after logs but keep in mind if the MAF housing suffers from the issues I've mentioned before, the reading will be inaccurate. Regardless we may be able to see if the sensor is pegged. 
Logging Condition:
4th Gear
Windows Closed
AC Off
ESP Off
Vag-Com Turbo Mode On
If in 93 octane mode you must only have 93 or higher in the tank
If in 91 octane mode you must only have 91 or higher in the tank
If in 100 octane mode you must only have 100 or higher in the tank
Try to get logs when it misfires.
Variables:
01 - 001-1 - Engine Speed
02 - 054-3 - Accelerator Pedal Position
03 - 054-4 - Throttle Plate Angle
04 - 114-1 - Engine Load (specified)
05 - 114-3 - Engine Load (actual)
06 - 115-3 - Boost Pressure (Specified)
07 - 115-4 - Boost Pressure (Actual)
08 - 003-2 - Intake Air Mass
09 - 014-3 - Misfire Sum
10 - 101-3 - Injection Timing (Median)
11 - 230-2 - Rail Pressure - Actual
12 - 103-1 - Current Fuel Pressure


_Modified by [email protected] at 2:00 PM 5-13-2009_


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Arin when I get my K04 would it be benificial to get a custom tune that compliment my specific mods? And if so, would the tune give me a HP and TQ gain that would be worth the time and money? And how much would a custom tune cost?


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (sTTeve)*

So do you all think VW and Audi did their intake this way (oval) to try and get us not to mod?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (sTTeve)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sTTeve* »_Arin when I get my K04 would it be benificial to get a custom tune that compliment my specific mods? And if so, would the tune give me a HP and TQ gain that would be worth the time and money? And how much would a custom tune cost?

I don't believe a customer tune would be very beneficial. Sitting here at APR I have the option of having this done any day of the week, but I don't, simply because the only way to get more power would be to run the turbo dangerously hot.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (sTTeve)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sTTeve* »_So do you all think VW and Audi did their intake this way (oval) to try and get us not to mod?

It looks more like packaging reasons to me. That or the transition from the engine cover to a round pipe would of been to severe. I put the engine cover in a sealed box and buried it behind the shop a LONG time ago.








If a group of you want oval mafs we can make them no problem, we can add flow straighteners, bows, pictures of animals, etc but without some data to show why there is an issue its worthless.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (sTTeve)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sTTeve* »_So do you all think VW and Audi did their intake this way (oval) to try and get us not to mod?

Prolly not as historically intake manufacturers have really never replaced the maf housing for the reasons we are discussing in this thread. Its only with the 2.0T FSI that incorporates the maf housing in the airbox that aftermarket companies chose to begin re-manufacturing maf housings.
I hope they've relearned this lesson at this point and won't do the same for the TSI as its unnecessary.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

If a group of you want oval mafs we can make them no problem, we can add flow straighteners, bows, pictures of animals, etc but without some data to show why there is an issue its worthless. 

I think you should make pink maf housings shaped like a cheeseburger for Arin.

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
1 is the only thing that can be adjusted in the software, however, every car must have an identical setup. Not a close to identical setup, it must be identical. 2 and 3 are equivalent to sticking your MAF in a cheeseburger and asking the tuner to tune for the cheeseburger. APR will not tune for cheeseburgers.



_Modified by [email protected] at 9:32 AM 5-14-2009_


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I think you should make pink maf housings shaped like a cheeseburger for Arin.

_Modified by [email protected] at 9:32 AM 5-14-2009_


----------



## Andy P (Jan 6, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (sTTeve)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sTTeve* »_so are we down to its the shape of the stock intake vs the aftermarket intake that is causing this? So why not make an oval shaped aftermarket to go with the kit? And why isnt it causing probs on the K03? And for that matter why didnt it cause probs on K04s before the 2.0T? Its kinda stange that we are hearing about this now when there are plenty of K04s out that seem to have no probs running aftermarket CAIs.

im having misfire problems w/apr stg 2 and neuspeed intake. i want to go to the stock air box it see if it's a fix.


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (xandypx)*

The problem on my car isn't actually a missfire. It is a stumble from a bad maf signal. When I hear missfire that usually means a problem with the ignition and that isn't really the case. 
BTW I have run a lot of logs on this with both the carbonio and evoms


----------



## Andy P (Jan 6, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Uber-A3)*


----------



## tdotA3mike (Feb 5, 2009)

*FV-QR*

very interesting thread! allot of different opinions thats for sure! one thing that was failed to be mentioned, sure the stock airbox is designed to work correctly with the MAF, but the stock air box is the biggest POS in the planet!







i have had mine basically fall apart! and kill 2 oil caps... i hate the damn thing! (i have been fighting with my dealer because they said they would fix it...) so it may work correctly but its so damn poorly built its going to get rapped with the added power of a K04







or maybe i just have a really messed up one... cause no one has ever seen one as bad as mine (including other A3's and the dealer) (FYI i have never touched the thing... ever) sorry to get off topic i was just reading this thread and all that talk about the stock airbox started to remind me of mine.... and i got pissed lol 
Also


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
2 and 3 are equivalent to sticking your MAF in a cheeseburger and asking the tuner to tune for the cheeseburger. APR will not tune for cheeseburgers. 


That is just gold!







in my sig now!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Uber-A3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Uber-A3* »_The problem on my car isn't actually a missfire. It is a stumble from a bad maf signal. When I hear missfire that usually means a problem with the ignition and that isn't really the case. 
BTW I have run a lot of logs on this with both the carbonio and evoms 

My car does actually misfire when im using my neuspeed intake. I have logged it many times.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Branman)*

Yes, mine stumbles from bad MAF signal. It does not misfire. I think the bad signal is from the turbulence the aftermarket CAI are causing also not being the same, shape, size and no air straightener. If some company made an *aftermarket intake with oval MAF area with air straightener all same specs as OEM * but even then I think companies would still need to tune the ecu to accomodate more air that the new CAI would be bringing in! Then these K04's would run even better than stock airbox crap!


_Modified by lour32 at 4:36 AM 5-15-2009_


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (lour32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_Yes, mine stumbles from bad MAF signal. It does not misfire. I think the bad signal is from the turbulence the aftermarket CAI are causing also not being the same, shape, size and no air straightener. If some company made an *aftermarket intake with oval MAF area with air straightener all same specs as OEM * but even then I think companies would still need to tune the ecu to accomodate more air that the new CAI would be bringing in! Then these K04's would run even better than stock airbox crap!

_Modified by lour32 at 4:36 AM 5-15-2009_

Dont think that retune would be needed for what ever extra air might be available, as long as the MAf housing is oem size and at the specs of that, its only because MAF cant calculate air correctly if the MAF house is bigger then what the tune was inteded for - take the 1.8T for instance, you can make any kind of adjustments for better airflow before and after MAF housing, but if you change size of MAF housing their is need for a retune because car will run like crap and misfire , its the same - its like keith said the 2.0TFSI has airbox and MAf housing in one unit and thats why a bigger piping a CAI is made of in dimension or other measurments throw of the reading....


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (DK_GTI_racer)*

whats being changed by the bigger or smaller or reshaping of the MAF unit is the velocity of the air that hits the MAF sensor which then cools it slower or faster than before. A bigger pipe less velocity longer to cool, smaller more velocity quicker to cool, etc... So there would be a need for some tweeking to get the readings back on track. At least thats how I understand it. I not sure its the turbulance but more the size shape that needs to be addressed.
But my question is can you tune for one CAI and then just sell that with the kit?


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (sTTeve)*

I tried something last night. I removed the air straigtener out of the stock airbox and the car started acting very funny. It became very jumpy, jerky. It was not smooth. It did not stumble in the upper rpm like with the CAI but the car was not smooth! So imagne a CAI with no air strai. and not oval + an open air filter pushing more air in


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (sTTeve)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sTTeve* »_whats being changed by the bigger or smaller or reshaping of the MAF unit is the velocity of the air that hits the MAF sensor which then cools it slower or faster than before. A bigger pipe less velocity longer to cool, smaller more velocity quicker to cool, etc... So there would be a need for some tweeking to get the readings back on track. At least thats how I understand it. I not sure its the turbulance but more the size shape that needs to be addressed.
But my question is can you tune for one CAI and then just sell that with the kit?

Completly wrong - the MAF HOUSE is the issue, not the bigger pipe before or after, the ECU and MAF sensor can adapt that easy, but the MAF sensor is adjusted accordingly to the MAF house its installed in.
its the housing thats the issue for 10s of millions of time mentioned in this thread, not pipe, filter or anything else....


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (DK_GTI_racer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DK_GTI_racer* »_
Completly wrong - the MAF HOUSE is the issue, not the bigger pipe before or after, the ECU and MAF sensor can adapt that easy, but the MAF sensor is adjusted accordingly to the MAF house its installed in.
its the housing thats the issue for 10s of millions of time mentioned in this thread, not pipe, filter or anything else....


X2
No kidding. the MAF has no idea what it is installed in. As long as it it is the correct cross sectional area and a smooth clean airflow it will be happy.
Unless the MAF signal is being pegged you can tune all day long. It isn't a tuning issue it is a hardware issue.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Uber-A3)*

Well if BSH can make me a intake with MAF housing identical to the OEM attatched to a filter on a stick "so to speak" I am golden!! If we get enough guys on here to get BSH to make such an intake, I think the K04 would be even better! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

I think after we can 100% identify the issue we can then get started on who can make an intake to work if thats the case. I tried to work on my car a little last night but my back is still killing me otherwise i would get the logs that are needed to determine what needs to be done.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (Branman)*

Like Uber said, I dont think the MAF is getting pegged it is a hardware issue not software? I think so, just because after putting the stock airbox/maf back the car did not stumble anymore in the upper rpm band. So that is more of a reason to think that all aftermarket intakes are definitley not like OEM which we know already. If somehow we can get a MAF made attached to a filter on a stick that hooks up to a stock S3 turbo inlet tube, I think that is the ticket!


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

good point, yeah well i dont mind doing logs to make sure what is going on or atleast get as much info as possible.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (Branman)*

I am getting dyno done on tuesday afternoon, but I have the stock airbox on right know. So I will do logs but I do not know since I have all the right stuff on if will will see any changes in the MAF. Because the car is running really good ask we speak. The only thing that is different is the throttle response which is slower since putting stock airbox back on!


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

im looking forward to seeing what your car is putting down


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (Branman)*

If I do not put at least 300 hp and 300 tor to the wheel I will be pissed!


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

like i was lol, I am still tracking down this damn boost issue. Well i hope you put down over 300 and 300 also.


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_good point, yeah well i dont mind doing logs to make sure what is going on or atleast get as much info as possible.

Here is a log I dug up with the Evoms. You can see how the MAF data gets all screwy at redline. Maybe somebody who know can tell if this MAF is getting pegged, I would assume though that if that happened it would be a different fault code. Something like MAF upper limit exceeded.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

I think someone mentioned in a past post that if the maf was pegged basically the numbers would stop climbing with RPM and just stay steady. It looks to me like the MAF is not getting pegged in your logs. Im assuming this was on your s3 conversion. Maybe I dont have to do logs because that info seems to tell it right there.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (Branman)*

It looks from Uber logs that G/S keep rising. So I am assuming the K04 causes alot more turbulence thus causing stumbling in the upper rpm band with a filter on a stick. We might even get away with the same size diameter round pipe with OEM spec air screen right before MAF. What do you think Branman


_Modified by lour32 at 12:47 PM 5-15-2009_


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

I did some quick testing with a screen and air straightener out of a MAF sensor from a land rover lol. Im a tech for Land Rover so thats all i had laying around. The car did not have a positive result. I put the straightener about 2" before the maf. Maybe if it was a little further away who knows for sure.


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: (Branman)*

One idea might be, see what the Audi TTS intake looks like and use it if possible, since its a K04. I dont know if it like ours or more of a filter on a stick.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (sTTeve)*

the TTS has a filter on a stick type w/ round MAF separate from airbox.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

how far does the maf sit from the turbo on the TTS


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (Branman)*

All the way in the front right before the airbox. about 20inches away from the ram air inlet in the front of the car!


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

I've done a lot of testing with and without a straightener, and the results where the same.
But what really causes my car to stumble (maybe even misfire) is the
crazy readings i get from my ABD intake.I see numbers ranging from 1.8 up to 3.4 g/s AT IDLE...
Oh and my MAX g/s is 230...and i make more than 350 flywheel HP...
I am about to go back to the stock airbox.I've had enough of this 
intake BS, and i can't really say i'll be missing the extra...what...10 HP ???WHO CARES ??


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: (lour32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_the TTS has a filter on a stick type w/ round MAF separate from airbox. 

Yeah I asked about this solution to Arin at APR. He said that is what their race cars are running. The whole maf and intake piping but it has to be retuned for the diff MAF


_Modified by Uber-A3 at 2:33 PM 5/15/2009_


----------



## sabba (Oct 25, 2008)

*Re: (Uber-A3)*

Uber-a3 when running logs with carbonio intake is your g/s profile drastically different then the LOG u posted above?


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (sabba)*

Any news on solutions in regards to get a custom MAF/intake built? Have you guys scene Uber's post of logs with evoms on the previous page?

_Modified by lour32 at 11:57 AM 5-18-2009_


_Modified by lour32 at 11:57 AM 5-18-2009_


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

I am having boost issues now i have to fix. When i fix them i will worry about swapping intakes and getting logs. If someone else wants to give it a go be my guest.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

lou you still getting dynoed tomorrow?


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*FV-QR*

part of the problem is the repeatability of manufacturing maf housings. peeps with the same intakes should measure the id of the maf area at multiple points and compare.


----------



## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

man i envy u guys sumwhat and feel ur guys pain at the same time....if all i had to do to fix my "broken" (as revo so eloquently puts it) car was put my stock airbox back on..omg would i be happier that a pig in siht...but u guys spent $ on sumthing thats not working to what u guys want to to be...
APR please make the fsi intake for them..me...us lol


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (Branman)*

Yes, I am still getting dynoed tomorrow!! Will post results on wednesday!


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Only problem Keith is that all aftermarket intake are round not oval! Can I use the stg3 MAF housing with new APR software?


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (lour32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_Only problem Keith is that all aftermarket intake are round not oval! Can I use the stg3 MAF housing with new APR software?

if we were to make software to do so, yes. However, that's a cast aluminum peice and is rather expensive. I don't see many peeps wanting to pay $5-600 for an intake.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_Only problem Keith is that all aftermarket intake are round not oval! Can I use the stg3 MAF housing with new APR software?


the roundness doesn't create entire issue as long as the cross sectional area is the same.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Are you guys going to come out with the carbon fiber intake w/bung like you talked about a couple of months ago? Also if the alum. intake maf would give me more power I might consider it!


_Modified by lour32 at 4:54 PM 5-18-2009_


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (lour32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_Are you guys going to come out with the carbon fiber intake w/bung like you talked about a couple of months ago? Also if the alum. intake maf would give me more power I might consider it!

_Modified by lour32 at 4:54 PM 5-18-2009_

we are working to develop the stage 2 intake however we have found some issues with the maf sizing, go figure







, and are continuing our testing to find a resolution.
if we chose to go the route of current intakes on the market we would just start shipping them but alas we are APR so you are just going to have to wait until it works perfectly. sorry for the inconvenience.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

What if I made an intake that is a full carbon fiber intake with an OEM MAF housing w/ flow straightener that would REQUIRE a software change, would be expensive, and would only work 100% correctly if you were running software that had this change. Would people want this?


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

why carbon fiber, cant use something that is cheaper but still works? CF is nice and all but not really needed IMO under the hood if its just for looks.
Id be in for it when I get my K04. You could offer it as part of yalls kit.


_Modified by sTTeve at 6:22 PM 5-18-2009_


----------



## tdotA3mike (Feb 5, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (sTTeve)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_Are you guys going to come out with the carbon fiber intake w/bung like you talked about a couple of months ago? Also if the alum. intake maf would give me more power I might consider it!

_Modified by lour32 at 4:54 PM 5-18-2009_


_Quote, originally posted by *sTTeve* »_why carbon fiber, cant use something that is cheaper but still works? CF is nice and all but not really needed IMO under the hood if its just for looks.
Id be in for it when I get my K04. You could offer it as part of yalls kit.

_Modified by sTTeve at 6:22 PM 5-18-2009_

i think he was referring to that post about the CF.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

I would buy it Arin!!!!! Not just me either. People with K04 kit too will buy


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

I would buy it as well Arin, that is if i dont go crazy trying to fix my boost issue.


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

Pic taken from a gentleman who originally bought the Fujita Intake (obvious MAF issues) and customized it to work with the OEM MAF housing...maybe something you guys could come up with using the k04 inlet tube APR supplies with their kits.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*

That is exactly what I was thinking of doing! Brad do you know who did this and where did the person get the oval to round silicone coupler. I looked all over the web for this kind of coupler!!! Did the person have good results with this setup?


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (lour32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_That is exactly what I was thinking of doing! Brad do you know who did this and where did the person get the oval to round silicone coupler. I looked all over the web for this kind of coupler!!! Did the person have good results with this setup?

No idea on the details...here is the link to the OP's Ebay FMIC thread on the golfmkv - page 6 (where the pic was posted)...
http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/...age=6
You will want to contact user: abe2003


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (lour32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_That is exactly what I was thinking of doing! Brad do you know who did this and where did the person get the oval to round silicone coupler. I looked all over the web for this kind of coupler!!! Did the person have good results with this setup?

It's just a round silicone coupler made to fit. 
Dave


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
It's just a round silicone coupler made to fit. 
Dave

Thats what it looks like to me also


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (crew219)*

The idea above is an ok one (one of my original thoughts), but 
it still requires you to hack up your engine cover to remove the MAF housing.
My second idea, and something i am working at at the moment, is actually making an 
"internal adapter" to internally connect the inlet to the MAF, to
the other side of the cover, to the "tube" formed by the two cover pieces.
I'm pretty sure a company can spend A MINUTE AMOUNT of money to
make something like that, so people can use it with whatever filter element they
like...
Oh and its ok i don't need the copyright, just a free piece when its done


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
It's just a round silicone coupler made to fit. 
Dave

Correct, just a 2.75" diameter hose @ 12" length. Golf, interested to see your design if you decide to fab one up.


----------



## ConsFast (May 21, 2007)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

how is your idea different from the Carbonio solution?

_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_The idea above is an ok one (one of my original thoughts), but 
it still requires you to hack up your engine cover to remove the MAF housing.
My second idea, and something i am working at at the moment, is actually making an 
"internal adapter" to internally connect the inlet to the MAF, to
the other side of the cover, to the "tube" formed by the two cover pieces.
I'm pretty sure a company can spend A MINUTE AMOUNT of money to
make something like that, so people can use it with whatever filter element they
like...
Oh and its ok i don't need the copyright, just a free piece when its done


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (ConsFast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ConsFast* »_how is your idea different from the Carbonio solution?


The Carbonio just uses a CF "adapter" at the front, and just a panel filter
in the airbox.
I am talking about making a form of "inside airbox" tubing, to
simulate the "filter on a stick effect", without using a panel filter.
Completely different setup.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (GolfRS)*

I am confused, so you would not hack out the MAF just make a tube to fit inside the stock airbox to go to a filter on a stick? I am a CAD designer by trade with alot of experience, I am think of making an exact replica of the OEM MAF out of aluminum that can be incorporated to a CAI. I am going to start drawing something up in CAD soon. But very interested in your idea GolfRS! 


_Modified by lour32 at 10:31 AM 5-20-2009_


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (lour32)*

i got it all figured out


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (lour32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_I am confused, so you would not hack out the MAF just make a tube to fit inside the stock airbox to go to a filter on a stick? I am a CAD designer by trade with alot of experience, I am think of making an exact replica of the OEM MAF out of aluminum that can be incorporated to a CAI. I am going to start drawing something up in CAD soon. But very interested in your idea GolfRS! 

_Modified by lour32 at 10:31 AM 5-20-2009_

Yes that is the idea.
Basically you design some sort of tubing to fit inside the stock airbox, with 
the proper fitting to connect it to the OEM MAF inlet.Another
plus in the whole procedure is the fact the piece where the mesh is situated
is REMOVABLE, so maybe a small adapter can be made to replace the whole 
mesh assembly with an "oval to round" adapter, and then just use 
regular round tubing exit the box.
I get lots of ideas like that, just to bored to actually make them.
I am also thinking about making an adapter about using a roller follower....


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*

JC, maybe I should try that next time I get a dyno done! Is that what you used to get 500 whp on you GTI! LOL


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (lour32)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lour32* »_JC, maybe I should try that next time I get a dyno done! Is that what you used to get 500 whp on you GTI! LOL









i use it in place of the 35R


----------



## ConsFast (May 21, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

where did you get this? does it work?

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_i got it all figured out


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (ConsFast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ConsFast* »_where did you get this? does it work?


Ehhhhh???


----------



## ConsFast (May 21, 2007)

*Re: (ConsFast)*

*Update:* I installed the oem air box and my car runs nicely. Still wish there was a none oem air box solution. I find myself down shifting more with the oem air box installed. Anyway, it works for now.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

glad to see your car is running good


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (ConsFast)*

I hope Confast evoms intake works w/Uni tune!!!! I will dyno Uni w/stock airbox first then w/evoms CAI - If not I will go back to APR software!!!!


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

any luck with those logs man.


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: (Branman)*

I will try and log Monday after work! boost actuall, requested, n75 wastegate, I didnt forget!!


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

So my whole "theory" about aftermarket intakes,MAF sizing etc
seems to be perfectly sound.
It still amazes me no aftermarket company has come forth with an oval (perfect match) intake.
Maybe they don't wanna open this can of worms....
I will probably be going back to stock also, cause i wanna be trouble free when i do my cams before summer...


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_What if I made an intake that is a full carbon fiber intake with an OEM MAF housing w/ flow straightener that would REQUIRE a software change, would be expensive, and would only work 100% correctly if you were running software that had this change. Would people want this? 

Bump this back up. Arin, Anymore info on if and when this may be a possibility.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_
Bump this back up. Arin, Anymore info on if and when this may be a possibility. 

Technically we could just use the tts piping/maf/and the APR TSI intake along with new software for the new maf. Like I said, expensive, but it would work. 


_Modified by [email protected] at 12:48 PM 6-1-2009_


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

what range we talking here? 400-600 bucks maybe


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

What Price Range do you estimate Arin?


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

Have you guys considered contacting a vendor such as 42DD and see if they can make you a couple one-off pipe sections? Seems that all you would need is a 8" piece of 2.75" OD piping...have them measure the properties of the OEM airbox (I would imagine they have one lying around somewhere), and press the inner section of the pipe to an oval shape (as similar as possible to the OEM section). This would leave the outer portions of the pipe at round 2.75" and be very easy to connect (weld or coupler) to your current intakes. Hell, they could probably even weld a air-straightener in-line for you. It couldn't cost more than $100.


----------



## 805 (May 11, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
the roundness doesn't create entire issue as long as the cross sectional area is the same.

Does it even need to be oval? Is it the interior volume and maybe how for the sensor is inserted in the piping?


----------



## gtiiiiiiii (Mar 6, 2004)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_Have you guys considered contacting a vendor such as 42DD and see if they can make you a couple one-off pipe sections? Seems that all you would need is a 8" piece of 2.75" OD piping...have them measure the properties of the OEM airbox (I would imagine they have one lying around somewhere), and press the inner section of the pipe to an oval shape (as similar as possible to the OEM section). This would leave the outer portions of the pipe at round 2.75" and be very easy to connect (weld or coupler) to your current intakes. Hell, they could probably even weld a air-straightener in-line for you. It couldn't cost more than $100. 


I dunno why APR would need to outsource work they can do themselves really...
It'd be like Jesse James contracting out his next car project to MTV's Pimp My Ride.


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (gtiiiiiiii)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gtiiiiiiii* »_
I dunno why APR would need to outsource work they can do themselves really...
It'd be like Jesse James contracting out his next car project to MTV's Pimp My Ride.









My reference to 42DD was for the individuals (Lou, Brandon, etc) who were looking into solutions. I completely realize that APR wouldn't have to go this route, but a couple individuals wanting a couple one-off productions made, might have to look into other alternatives.


----------



## 805 (May 11, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (rbradleymedmd)*

So if the internal measurements of the oem maf measaure 2.08 in tall and 3.12 in wide , what does that equal in a round tube?
Anybody good at math?


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (805)*


_Quote, originally posted by *805* »_So if the internal measurements of the oem maf measaure 2.08 in tall and 3.12 in wide , what does that equal in a round tube?
Anybody good at math?

Not quite that simple. It isn't the overall cross sectional area, it is the way the air flows through an oval vs a circle.


----------



## 805 (May 11, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
the roundness doesn't create entire issue as long as the cross sectional area is the same.

I was going off this ^


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (805)*


_Quote, originally posted by *805* »_
I was going off this ^

ahh ok I was just told that it wasnt simple as that. If it was it would make sense that somebody would have done the math maybe, don't really know myself.


----------



## 805 (May 11, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Uber-A3)*

yeah, I just go by what APR has said. I think they looked into it a bit.
i know you read all this, but what i get out of it is, size matters, shape doesn't, and how close to original does it have to be? hundreds,thousands of a inch?
IF THE CROSS SECTIONAL AREA ON THE NEW INTAKE IS NOT IDENTICAL TO STOCK, AND/OR IF THE DESIGN OF THE INTAKE IS CAUSING INCORRECT MAF READINGS, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT CAR YOU PUT IT ON, IT WILL NOT OPERATE PROPERLY.
Size is critical. Any deviation will cause an error. 
Even if someone bought the same intake from the same company there may be differences between the two due to manufacturing tolerances and many other variables. In those cases, the readings between the two would be different and incorrect.
Placement, size and shape of the MAF housing are critical to reliable engine operation.
test a flow straightener as others have suggested and to verify their tolerance specs for maf housing surface area. 

If the MAF cross sectional area is different = Fail.
If the MAF sees too much turbulence = Fail.
If the MAF is not angled correctly = Fail.
part of the problem is the repeatability of manufacturing maf housings. peeps with the same intakes should measure the id of the maf area at multiple points and compare.


----------



## sTTeve (May 13, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

So is the TTS piping round or oval? So you can go round but you just need to tune for it?


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (sTTeve)*

Yes the TTS MAF is round, same as the one on the new TSI GTI engine. Correct a new TSI MAF would require a tune based off that particular MAF housing!


----------



## sloMKV (Sep 29, 2008)

Someone just linked me to this thread I just got done reading it. I have been having the same issues with a maxed out K03. At the top of 5th gear sometimes even 4th, the car would misfire and break up and sometimes even cut boost/power. Today I put the stock intake on and although it's noticeably slower, so far it's been without issue on some 4th gear pulls. 
I've got VAG COM on the way, and will be logging both intakes back to back on 4th and 5th gear pulls.


----------



## acespizee (Dec 19, 2007)

*Re: (sloMKV)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sloMKV* »_Someone just linked me to this thread I just got done reading it. I have been having the same issues with a maxed out K03. At the top of 5th gear sometimes even 4th, the car would misfire and break up and sometimes even cut boost/power. Today I put the stock intake on and although it's noticeably slower, so far it's been without issue on some 4th gear pulls. 
I've got VAG COM on the way, and will be logging both intakes back to back on 4th and 5th gear pulls.

Very interested in what you find out as i'm on a K03 but dont have a vag-com, i dont have the symptoms your are describing but would love to find out whats happening either way. I was thinking of just hacking of my MAF housing on the OEM air box and bolting that to my intake.


----------



## Shazsta (Mar 9, 2006)

*Re: (acespizee)*

hey fellas check out this thread on forges new twintake
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4451947
johnnyc has it on his k04. 
check at [email protected]'s comment on maf readings


----------



## skateboy918 (Apr 26, 2008)

*Re: (Uber-A3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Uber-A3* »_
Here is a log I dug up with the Evoms. You can see how the MAF data gets all screwy at redline. Maybe somebody who know can tell if this MAF is getting pegged, I would assume though that if that happened it would be a different fault code. Something like MAF upper limit exceeded.










why does it jump from 3320 rpm to 5040rpm? looks like the time stamp is not consistent


----------

