# raised strut towers (brainstorming)



## hyphytrain203 (Jun 9, 2003)

ok, i've been doing a assload of research lately on bagging my mkIII jetta... as of right now, i'm pretty dissapointed that i haven't seen the mkIII gen lay frame. it seems as though people are having a hard time finding bag/tire clearance which is preventing them from going any lower...
one idea i came up with was raising the strut towers in the bay... im just brainstorming but this task doesnt seem like it would be that hard to accomplish. anyone that has had experience with this or knows of someone that has done something similiar, please chime in...
i know there are hundreds of mkIII's in europe that have been able to lay frame and about 0 in the US... what the hell do they know that we don't???
i'd love bags, but knowing my coilovers right now can go lower than i ever would be able to on bags is turning me away








help me out!


----------



## vwguygti98 (Aug 15, 2003)

*Re: raised strut towers (hyphytrain203)*

Slap some bags over those coilovers and it will go just as low, then you can pick it up, but the best think i can tell you from my expierence with my MKIV is to put the bags on and see what gets in your way when you dump it, then see if you can remove it, then once all that stuff is out of the way, start fabbing up custom mounts


_Modified by vwguygti98 at 12:26 AM 7-24-2008_


----------



## Still Fantana (Jul 16, 2008)

*Re: raised strut towers (vwguygti98)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwguygti98* »_Slap some bags over those coilovers and it will go just as low, then you can pick it up, but the best think i can tell you from my expierence with my MKIV is to put the bags on and see what gets in your way when you dump it, then see if you can remove it, then once all that stuff is out of the way, start fabbing up custom mounts

_Modified by vwguygti98 at 12:26 AM 7-24-2008_

Did you honestly read what this guy wrote?
He seems to have done a good bit of research, you just re-itterated something he had already put in his thread. He knows his coilovers are going to be lower....








Hopefully someone can help you out man http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## EDM_v-dub (Mar 16, 2003)

Might want to jump on some UK boards for specific examples.
You probably know this, but the first problem is that all of the available kits here (until recently) used struts that were too long. Now, like you thought, its just a matter of cutting stuff up and raising. While I have no idea why this hasnt been done as often as in Europe, I have a feeling it comes down to the amount of work involved for us lazy Americans.








Good luck either way!


----------



## hyphytrain203 (Jun 9, 2003)

*Re: (EDM_v-dub)*

thanks for the posts and advice guys, keep em comin http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## vdubfiend (Oct 16, 2001)

*Re: (hyphytrain203)*

cause there arent as many people over here that know what they are doing


----------



## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

*Re: (vdubfiend)*

Doug - sounds like you're on the right track in finding that most off-the-shelf kits will not get you low enough. The standard mk4/mk5 VWVortex Air Suspension forum Aerosports-over-coilovers will *not *get a mk3 any lower than a decent set of coilovers. I have done a ton of research myself, and here is some stuff that will hopefully help you out.
-You need to use an airbag that will fully collapse, unlike the Aerosports which have a 4" minimum height. This means you can't use off-the-shelf coilovers - at least not easily. This means you have to seal against the shock housing and the shock rod, and the shock oil seals will be inside your pressurized volume. You need to find a shock that can handle this. Koni doesn't have any test data on the 8610 Race series strut inserts to say either way if this will work or not. I tend to think it might, and they're easy/cheap to rebuild. Universal Air claims it won't work with any shock. 
-The Easy Street build-it-yourself kits go very low. They meet the 'bag requirements I described above, and the housings are even shorter than a Koni 8610-1436 strut insert. This is a good and cheap option, requires welding, but I've heard lots of bad things about the quality of these struts. I've also heard they don't ride good unless you're running high pressures and ride heights (like stock height). This was all hearsay, but it was enough to discourage me.
-Check out Bagyard Airride. They build custom struts using Bilstein shocks and use custom bags based on the Universal Air Air House 2 (no internal sleeve, 2" min height). If they have a mk2/3 application, they would probably go low. 
-There isn't a whole lot of room between the top of the struts and the bottom of the hood even with a stock setup. You can raise the strut towers easily, but where will you raise them to? This will be your most difficult obstacle if you choose that route. 
-You can _probably _lay frame on a 205-40-16 tire, if your offset is correct, without cutting out the inner fenders. Very doubtful that anything bigger will fit. 
-There is a _lot _of other stuff that needs modification to actually lay subframe. That last 1" to the ground is HUGE. There is a reason why no US cars are laying frame, and the lowest in Europe are running small wheels.
Bobby; I have a question for you about wheel tubs, PM me if you would like


----------



## hyphytrain203 (Jun 9, 2003)

*Re: (Afazz)*

thanks for all the info man http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
i plan on running 165/45/15's on a 15x6 wheel with pretty low offsets
i know this is sort of cheating, but do you think this will allow me to go all the way down?
what do you think a better bag would be to use on my ultra ultra lows?


----------



## EDM_v-dub (Mar 16, 2003)

*Re: (vdubfiend)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdubfiend* »_cause there arent as many people over here that know what they are doing









This is the fella to talk to.


----------



## hyphytrain203 (Jun 9, 2003)

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Pmed him


----------



## Shawn W. (May 6, 2007)

*Re: (vdubfiend)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdubfiend* »_cause there arent as many people over here that know what they are doing









I knew you were a lurker







You even touch that car? Rene and I going to have to plan a vacation?


----------



## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

*Re: (hyphytrain203)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hyphytrain203* »_i plan on running 165/45/15's on a 15x6 wheel with pretty low offsets


Holy hell that's small! You actually might get to the ground on Ultra Lows with Aerosports and early 2.0 style upper strut mounts. That's 1.6" smaller than a 205-40-16! Autocross16vrocco was 1/2" or so above ground with Mason-Tech struts (Aerosports over Koni 8610 struts) with 195-45-15 tires and late, VR6 style mounts. This might be worth a try http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## hyphytrain203 (Jun 9, 2003)

*Re: (Afazz)*

are there any shorter bags (when fully compressed) available to go over my h&r's?


----------



## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

*Re: (hyphytrain203)*

Short answer: no. And the Aerosports cannot be modified to be shorter either.


----------



## hyphytrain203 (Jun 9, 2003)

*Re: (Afazz)*

so i guess my best bet is to just use aerosport bags up front and hope that i'll have enough clearance to lay frame... i wish there was another way but i'm not seein one right now...
anyways...
i talked to [email protected] about rear shocks and he suggested using http://www.airassisted.com/pro...d=280
which look very similar to mason-techs rear set-up
pics:
mason-tech








aac universal rear








im not too sure what this person used for the bottom mount of aac's universal set-up, but im guessing i can just cut apart an old shock i have lying around or something to achive this








thoughts on this?


----------



## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

*Re: (hyphytrain203)*

The link you posted was to the Easy Street build-it-yourself kits that I suggested in my first post. These are very similar to the Mason-tech rear kits.


----------



## Plain (Jun 14, 2004)

*FV-QR*

I know of some Panscraper folks that are narrowing the front end on a MKIII, I think they are trying to lay rocker thou. They are pulling the strut towers in.


----------



## hyphytrain203 (Jun 9, 2003)

*Re: (Afazz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Afazz* »_The link you posted was to the Easy Street build-it-yourself kits that I suggested in my first post. These are very similar to the Mason-tech rear kits.

sorry about that... it looks to be exactly the same as mason-techs rear set-up... how do you think they got passed the ****ty ride quality?


----------



## Shawn W. (May 6, 2007)

*Re: (hyphytrain203)*

Talk to Chet Ubetcha 
that is his rear setup photo. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## slo deno (Jul 10, 2007)

*Re: (Shawn W.)*

hope it accumulates to the 2k you need for your trans.


----------



## Shawn W. (May 6, 2007)

*Re: (hyphytrain203)*

BTW
Pnascrapers MKIII blog
Wish I could help more doug http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## hyphytrain203 (Jun 9, 2003)

*Re: (Shawn W.)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif thanks man


----------



## westonie (Mar 8, 2005)

*Re: (hyphytrain203)*

definitely read up on panscrapers. If your gonna lay the pinch on a mk3 the control arms need to be modified as well as shortened axles and tie rods. With the strut assemblies available nowadays, I don't think raising the towers is as much of a problem as it was int the past, esp. with a 165/45. Using the right bag setup you will have a lot more hitting before the bag bottoms out. I know its slightly different, but on my mk2 the c-arms lay on the ground with 165/45's and the struts still have another 1/2-3/4" to work with (stock towers using easystreet struts).


----------



## Synclo (May 19, 2005)

*Re: (Shawn W.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Shawn W.* »_Talk to Chet Ubetcha 
that is his rear setup photo. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

i might as well explain that strut a little more for anyone interested
i cut about .5" off the bottom of the strut from AAC, and cut the bottom mount off of a mk1 strut since the syncro mounts are different from a regular B3 or mkIII but very similar to mkI's, welded the mount onto the strut and ¡Viola! and i could probably lay pinchweld/gas tank(







) in the rear but my control arm rests on the arched part of the pinchweld at about 30psi or so, and if i cut any more ill have the start welding plates in, and ill save that for a later time as ill have to move the brake lines out of the way as well...and the front Mason Tech struts will definitely go low enough to lay pinchweld/oil pan...my lip is about 3/4" off the ground all the way down and i have about 3.5"-4" of threads left to go down....im also on 15x6"s and 165/45's



_Modified by Chet Ubetcha at 9:31 PM 7-27-2008_


----------



## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

*Re: (Chet Ubetcha)*

I've been thinking about this all weekend, and I really think you'll be able to lay subframe up front with a Universal Air Aerosport between the spring seats of your H&R coilovers, as long as you're using a 165-45-15 tire. 
The thing with airride is that 1" smaller OD tires will result in an extra 1" of drop. You can crank the 'bag mounts down 1/2" plus the extra 1/2" you get from the radius of the tire being smaller. Basically, smaller tires make a HUGE difference.
One way to test the drop is to go to the hardware store, buy some schedule 40 PVC pipe that's at least 60mm ID (2-1/2" schedule 40 should work), cut it to 4" long, plop it in place of your springs, and see how low it gets. Make sure your lower spring seat is above the top of your tire. You could get a test fit for about $5 instead of wasting $200 on an Aerosport just to try it out. Just a suggestion, but I think it would work.


----------



## hyphytrain203 (Jun 9, 2003)

*Re: (Afazz)*

damn, thanks a lot for all the good info guys... helping me out a lot http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## outrunnerriley (Jun 4, 2005)

*Re: (hyphytrain203)*

im pretty sure i got my car to lay out on bags, pinch rails were sitting on the ground and control arms, same overall height as 165/45 15's, my gf's car almost lays pinch rails too with 195/45 15's on a 8" wheel. its not that hard


----------



## hyphytrain203 (Jun 9, 2003)

*Re: (outrunnerriley)*

you're running macpherson universal rear struts up front though aren't you? you think that would be that much different than running aerosport bags on my coils? it seems like rear setups have a smaller bag diameter which im guessing helps the tire bag clearance issue...
anyone?


----------



## Retromini (Nov 7, 2004)

*Re: (hyphytrain203)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hyphytrain203* »_ it seems like rear setups have a smaller bag diameter which im guessing helps the tire bag clearance issue...


The rear sleeve style setups are 5.1" in diameter versus the 5.875" diameter of the aero sports.


----------



## hyphytrain203 (Jun 9, 2003)

*Re: (Retromini)*

thanks man http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
hmmm...


----------



## EDM_v-dub (Mar 16, 2003)

*Re: (hyphytrain203)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hyphytrain203* »_you're running macpherson universal rear struts up front though aren't you? you think that would be that much different than running aerosport bags on my coils? it seems like rear setups have a smaller bag diameter which im guessing helps the tire bag clearance issue...
anyone?

I've always wondered what this guys setup is, seems to be a bit secretive about it though,


----------



## hyphytrain203 (Jun 9, 2003)

*Re: (EDM_v-dub)*

i just talked to [email protected] this morning and he told me its imposible to run macpherson universal rear struts up front due to terrible ride quality and the simple fact that *your car won't be able to turn*








so hes def holding something back on us


----------



## Shawn W. (May 6, 2007)

*Re: (hyphytrain203)*

I know he was going to bag my old b4 before its untimely demise.







I was looking forward to that.


----------



## EDM_v-dub (Mar 16, 2003)

I think that someone with a MK3 chassis just needs to be the guinea pig (hint, hint...), we just need to see what it is that actually gets in the way up front.


----------



## hyphytrain203 (Jun 9, 2003)

*Re: (EDM_v-dub)*

yeah, im pretty determined to get this to work... just need to sell my wheels and i'll start buying/installing/working on problems


----------



## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

*Re: (hyphytrain203)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hyphytrain203* »_i just talked to [email protected] this morning and he told me its imposible to run macpherson universal rear struts up front due to terrible ride quality and the simple fact that *your car won't be able to turn*








so hes def holding something back on us









According to the Replacement Parts list in the installation manuals of both kits, the struts themselves are the same in the Easy Street Macpherson Front and Macpherson Rear kits. The differences are in the bags (sleeve vs. dual convoluted) and the upper mounting hardware. You can (and should, in my opinion) use stock strut bearings/mounts for a mk3 upper mount. In that case, the only difference is the bags themselves. If you're using the fabrication kits exactly as intended, using the Easy Street supplied bearings and bushings, then yes the rear kit will not turn. If you're using stock upper mounts, it doesn't matter which kit you're using. I think you'll need to machine a bushing for the upper end, I think the ES kits use 1/2" thread and stock is M14 (.551").
Edit: the bushing is a little more complicated than I described above, it would need to look like the stock bushing/nut except 1/2-20 threaded. This is the piece you would need to remake:










_Modified by Afazz at 10:49 PM 7-29-2008_


----------



## Plain (Jun 14, 2004)

*FV-QR*

Panscrapers http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3205137


----------



## hyphytrain203 (Jun 9, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Plain)*

seen it, thanks for the link though http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
i scratched my original plan with aerosport bags over my h&r's, im going with bagyard


----------



## switches bitshis (Sep 14, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (hyphytrain203)*

so you guys dont think that with a univerasl bag set up from kevin over a b&g coil over in the front u can lay frame?? yes u have to notch frame but if you cut a stock strut mount and do some other little things i dont see why this cant happen i am about to order a set up from kevin my goal is not to lay from well yea but as long as i get fender sitting on the lip of the rim im happy and incase u want to know rim and tire its a 16x8.5 with a falken 512 205/40 and a 16x9 with the same tire i am convinced i can get the fenders on the lips on the coils now i only have about an 1.5'' to go in the front before the the fender touches lip


----------



## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (SD auto NY)*

Lay frame on 205-40-16 with B&G/Aerosport with unmodified early 2.0 strut mounts? I'd say no.
Lay the tire on the fender on 205-40-16 with B&G/Aerosport with unmodified early 2.0 strut mounts? I'd say yes, depending on your offset. 
Also, double check that the B&G's are less than 2.14" diameter or whatever the max strut diameter of the Aerosports is.
Disclaimer: I haven't done this myself, but I've taken a bunch of measurements, run very low on coils, and seriously considered airride. I'm pretty confident in both answers.


----------



## Still Fantana (Jul 16, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Afazz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Afazz* »_
Also, double check that the B&G's are less than 2.14" diameter or whatever the max strut diameter of the Aerosports is.
. 

My buddy put my UA bag over a b&g and it was fine http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
That was a four tho, dont know if the 3 has the same diameter but couldnt imagine it being different or THAT off


----------



## switches bitshis (Sep 14, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (Still Fantana)*

its the same diametor. i actually had mk4 front coilover B&G shafts on my car for like a week again as long as i can get frnder on rim im happy im doing this to make my life easyer driving the car everyday


----------



## vdubfiend (Oct 16, 2001)

*Re: (outrunnerriley)*


_Quote, originally posted by *outrunnerriley* »_im pretty sure i got my car to lay out on bags, pinch rails were sitting on the ground and control arms, same overall height as 165/45 15's, my gf's car almost lays pinch rails too with 195/45 15's on a 8" wheel. its not that hard

























hahahaha cheater... 165/45s 
my car is lower than that on 17s


----------



## Still Fantana (Jul 16, 2008)

*Re: (vdubfiend)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdubfiend* »_
hahahaha cheater... 165/45s 
my car is lower than that on 17s









Is that on bags?


----------



## Shawn W. (May 6, 2007)

*Re: (Still Fantana)*

Yes I have seen this


----------



## hyphytrain203 (Jun 9, 2003)

so what do you guys think the best way to raise the strut towers would be? i was thinking of hacking up a junk mkIII's towers and sectioning in the cut pieces... any thoughts on this?


----------



## Shawn W. (May 6, 2007)

*Re: (hyphytrain203)*

either that or bending your own peices.


----------



## JDM-JTI (Sep 23, 2004)

*Re: (Shawn W.)*

crazy ass mo fo


----------

