# Lugtronic vs C2+OBD2 swap for OBD1 VR6 dizzy rado



## lub_rado (Oct 24, 2011)

I'm at the point where c2 30# dizzy software just isnt cutting it. I was planning on swapping to OBD2 and running the 42# software, but I've recently become interested in Lugtronic. They seem similiar price wise considering the cost of ECU/MAF/etc for the obd2 swap. I've helped tune a few DSM vehicles running on standalone, and I have the basic idea, but I wouldn't call myself a tuning expert by any means. There aren't any tuners in the area (that I know of) that would be able to do it either. Is tuning Lugtonic something that I could do with datalogging and making runs on some back roads? Or should I just stick with the OBD2 swap and run c2?


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

running standalone for 400whp is a waste. Lots of us have been down that road.


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## lub_rado (Oct 24, 2011)

I completely understand that standalone is overkill at the power levels im at. I guess the real question is this: Would be less trouble to install and tune a Lugtronic ecu or to fully swap an OBD1 dizzy corrado to OBD2? While the OBD2 swap doesn't seem too bad, Lugtronic just seems like a simpler option.


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

one of the benefits of standalone is it is tuned for YOUR car not a tune that should work on all cars. It also has the ease of changing components, gets rid of maf and has alot of features a chip tune will not offer. Plug and play install will be quicker than changing your harness to obd2.


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

90% of the cars out there have been tuned the way you describe, with data log and map exchanges. live remote dyno tuning is also available. 
You could also keep your OBD1 TB and ISV as well as the wire harness.


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

I love the driveability of standalone for a daily driver, fatter torque curve, no rev hang, fully programmable and kept AC and cruise control


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

KubotaPowered said:


> no rev hang, and kept AC and cruise control


I'm not advocating either system but is this not all available via chip tuning also? Again, *not *getting into one being better than the other; I just think that part of your post might be miscontrued by others who do not have the experience that some others have. Otherwise I think all the data in the thread in general is spot on. :thumbup:


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## radoman57 (Jan 16, 2007)

Go Lugtronic and don't look back, all you will need to do is fiddle with the fuel map to fine tune it.
You won't get better support than Kevin Black will give you.


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

been using an email tune from Kevin Black (aka mr. Lugtronic) in my Lugtronic Plug n play ecu for my obd1 vrt ... so much more fun to drive than when I first turbo'd my vr6 in 04' using c2's obd1 software... 

Kevin's support is top notch and has the cars to prove it on the street and the track! 

"The choice is clear" with Lugtronic :thumbup:

(_mine is getting updated at the moment, I cant wait to try it out when it gets back_)


-paolo


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> I'm not advocating either system but is this not all available via chip tuning also? Again, *not *getting into one being better than the other; I just think that part of your post might be miscontrued by others who do not have the experience that some others have. Otherwise I think all the data in the thread in general is spot on. :thumbup:


It's available on both chip tune and Lugtronic. However, there is more user adjustability for things like AFRs, timing, idle speed, control water/meth, wastegate duty cycle, gets rid of the MAF, etc etc etc. The only thing Lugtronic won't do is pass OBD2 emissions, that is where the chip comes in.


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

KubotaPowered said:


> It's available on both chip tune and Lugtronic. However, there is more user adjustability for things like AFRs, timing, idle speed, control water/meth, wastegate duty cycle, gets rid of the MAF, etc etc etc. The only thing Lugtronic won't do is pass OBD2 emissions, that is where the chip comes in.


Are you sure about that?


hmm let me refrase that... what is included in your OBD emissions test?
I only need to pass a CO and O2 reading


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

KubotaPowered said:


> no rev hang, and kept AC and cruise control





V-dubbulyuh said:


> I'm not advocating either system but is this not all available via chip tuning also? Again, *not *getting into one being better than the other; I just think that part of your post might be miscontrued by others who do not have the experience that some others have. Otherwise I think all the data in the thread in general is spot on. :thumbup:





KubotaPowered said:


> It's available on both chip tune and Lugtronic. However, there is more user adjustability for things like AFRs, timing, idle speed, control water/meth, wastegate duty cycle, gets rid of the MAF, etc etc etc. The only thing Lugtronic won't do is pass OBD2 emissions, that is where the chip comes in.


No Sir, you completely missed the context of my post. I highlighted specifically that *keeping AC and cruise control was nothing unique to standalone*. That is why I quoted only that section of your comment. Trust me I've been around long enough to know the ins and outs of both chip tuning and standalone. What is misleading is that from the quotation it appears that AC and cruise control can't be retained on a chip tune and that rev-hang is problematic. You of all people have run Jeff's Pro-Maf and you know that rev-hang is not an issue. I have multiple VRt's and am actually in the process of building yet another one and ALL of them have AC and cruise control. I do fully agree with all else you have said though in terms of adjustability of OTHER parameters.

I know that you've been around here for a long time too and therefore you have more knowledge than some of the newer people. You have done a lot of testing and know various setups. A lot of details that are obvious to some of us that have been around FI for a while are not obvious to some of the newer guys. I get a lot of PM's and see a lot of useless ass threads proving that. Someone reading this thread might misinterpret some of what you said, that's all. :thumbup:


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

i think what he was trying to say was alot of people have the misconception that you must get rid of cruise control and AC with standalone, which obviously is not the case.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Understood... the misconceptions go both ways (ie chips and standalone). Kubota def knows what he is talking about and I have even asked him electrical related stuff in the past. Just trying to keep things clear so people don't run into problems.


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

I've run both and dyno tuned the Lugtronic. If you want to plug in a chip and turn the key, C2 software is for you OR need to pass OBD2 emissions. If you want to tune your way to more power and have the ability to upgrade your setup, just swap injectors and retune, no need for a chip swap. I thought that there was no rev hang or part throttle issues whatsoever until driving a Lugtronic setup. The cruising difference, torque curve, and rev up between a Lugtronic car and C2 car is night and day. You think you have no rev hang, part throttle cruising hiccups or decel fueling issues, I will give you the keys and let you decide 



pimS said:


> Are you sure about that?
> 
> 
> hmm let me refrase that... what is included in your OBD emissions test?
> I only need to pass a CO and O2 reading


I'm 100% positive. Here in AZ we show up to the emissions station and they inspect for a catalytic converter, test the gas cap seal, and plug into the OBD2 port to look for CELs and passed readiness.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

I'm pretty familiar with your last "big" dyno you did back in the day on your VR. Since then I know you have done a SC setup also. Do you have a comparable dyno for the standalone on a setup similar to your old turbo build? Just wondering power wise how much more you were able to gain.


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> I'm pretty familiar with your last "big" dyno you did back in the day on your VR. Since then I know you have done a SC setup also. Do you have a comparable dyno for the standalone on a setup similar to your old turbo build? Just wondering power wise how much more you were able to gain.


I have comparable SC dynos as the turbo car is still running C2 ProMAF and will stay on the ProMAF. Turbo car hasn't changed at all since the big dyno. I will dig up C2 and Lugtronic Vortech dyno plots. IIRC C2 dyno'd 9whp higher but Lugtronic picked up about 30wtq all the way through the powerband. I'm not trying to start another C2 vs Lugtronic debate, just first person opinions on both setups.


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## lub_rado (Oct 24, 2011)

Well, now that that's settled I think I'm going with Lugtronic pretty soon. It's similiar cost wise compared to an OBD2 swap + software, and I'd much rather spend some time tuning than with my head under the dash running a new harness to the fuse box, and it lets me keep my existing distributor, throttle body, etc. Looks similiar enough to the ECMlink software I've used before that I don't think I'll have any issue. :thumbup:


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

KubotaPowered said:


> IIRC C2 dyno'd 9whp higher but Lugtronic picked up about 30wtq all the way through the powerband.


Thanks and good info. :thumbup:


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## pimS (Jan 7, 2009)

KubotaPowered
I'm 100% positive. Here in AZ we show up to the emissions station and they inspect for a catalytic converter said:


> Thats actuually good news, over here they just check emissions no obd port read-out , you need a cat but if you pass emissions they wont even look for it.


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## BlownGinster (Jun 23, 2002)

Lugtronic  I ran the c2 promaf before and it ran great. I run lugtronic now and couldn't be happier. I had some issues when I first installed it, but it was car related and Kevin worked through it with me. Support is A+. Just need to fix tranny now before it completly dies


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