# RPM Drop 2nd Gear Auto Trans



## adam0624 (Jul 13, 2020)

Hello all,

I’ve noticed that whenever I am accelerating from a near/full stop on 2nd gear, at 1500RPM the RPMs will drop slightly and bounce back up. Now if I am just accelerating from a near/full stop on 1st and shift to 2nd, there is no issue as the 2nd gear RPMs climb to 1500 and beyond. It seems to only be when I am driving at a low speed on 2nd... it has definitely been more audible to me since I installed an intake and exhaust this summer. Anyone have any insight in this? 


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## 2.5T\/DUB (Aug 1, 2020)

Are you shifting it into 2nd before take-off? If so, that is meant for low-traction situations like snow and it will keep RPM's low to promote traction.

Or, are you talking about it down-shifting into 2nd and it dropping off?

It could be a tuning issue if you added an air intake and exhaust without ECU re-mapping. Added a cat-back system from a reputable company that's tuned for the 2.5L usually will give you a little more power. BUT, if you cut-out the mid or rear muffler and added your own mufflers or changed the diameter of the pipe, sometimes this screws up factory exhaust scavenging and you'll lose low-end torque. The ECU may be trying to adjust the air/fuel ratio to make up for the extra load so there's a slight drop in RPM's and bounces back when it's adjusted.

Get a ECU & TCM tune, you wouldn't regret it anyway.

Just a thought..


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## adam0624 (Jul 13, 2020)

2.5T\/DUB said:


> Are you shifting it into 2nd before take-off? If so, that is meant for low-traction situations like snow and it will keep RPM's low to promote traction.
> 
> Or, are you talking about it down-shifting into 2nd and it dropping off?
> 
> ...


Yes, it is when I am driving at a low speed. An example would be when I am slowing down to turn around a corner and start accelerating at a low speed in 2nd rather than downshifting... it’ll happen then.

Would an ie stage 1 tune increase the rev limiter as well? Cause if it does then there would be no need for the trans tune.


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## 2.5T\/DUB (Aug 1, 2020)

adam0624 said:


> Yes, it is when I am driving at a low speed. An example would be when I am slowing down to turn around a corner and start accelerating at a low speed in 2nd rather than downshifting... it’ll happen then.
> 
> Would an ie stage 1 tune increase the rev limiter as well? Cause if it does then there would be no need for the trans tune.
> 
> ...



Gotcha, yes a Stage 1 tune from IE will definitely help, many added bonuses over stock, but I would definitely not skip out on the TCM tune; faster shifts, no long 3rd gear, 6800 RPM shifts at WOT. You won't get the most out the RMP range without the TCM tune. A stock tranny will shift too soon and you won't get full power of the tune. It's worth it, anyone on VWVortex with the tune combo will tell you that.


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## 2.5T\/DUB (Aug 1, 2020)

2.5T\/DUB said:


> Gotcha, yes a Stage 1 tune from IE will definitely help, many added bonuses over stock, but I would definitely not skip out on the TCM tune; faster shifts, no long 3rd gear, 6800 RPM shifts at WOT. You won't get the most out the RMP range without the TCM tune. A stock tranny will shift too soon and you won't get full power of the tune. It's worth it, anyone on VWVortex with the tune combo will tell you that.


Obviously, you can still take advantage of some of the tune upgrades without the TCM tune, so don't get discouraged, both can be expensive at once, so getting the ECU tune and then the TCM tune later on is ok too.


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## adam0624 (Jul 13, 2020)

2.5T\/DUB said:


> Obviously, you can still take advantage of some of the tune upgrades without the TCM tune, so don't get discouraged, both can be expensive at once, so getting the ECU tune and then the TCM tune later on is ok too.


I didn’t realize it increased the shift speed as well. That’s definitely something to consider. Yeah getting that ECU stage 1 tune will be first priority to reconcile any issues concerning increased flow.


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## JaxPlanet (Sep 17, 2018)

If the transmission or engine is not working correctly now, performance tuning might amplify the problem.

I think the best starting point is to make sure that the transmission fluid/filter has been properly changed every 50K. If not, have it changed immediately. If it was changed, I would make sure they used the correct fluid, which should be "T-WS" from a major brand, like Genuine VW or Ravenol. In addition, only get this done at the VW dealer or a shop dedicated to VWs or transmissions.

If the problem persisted, I would check for error codes with a code reader or have the place that changed the fluid/filter check it out.

When the car is running well in every aspect and you are ready to tune, I am quite pleased with the IE stage 1 and trans tunes. You don't have to do them at the same time as they stand alone quite well but they are better together.


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## adam0624 (Jul 13, 2020)

JaxPlanet said:


> If the transmission or engine is not working correctly now, performance tuning might amplify the problem.
> 
> I think the best starting point is to make sure that the transmission fluid/filter has been properly changed every 50K. If not, have it changed immediately. If it was changed, I would make sure they used the correct fluid, which should be "T-WS" from a major brand, like Genuine VW or Ravenol. In addition, only get this done at the VW dealer or a shop dedicated to VWs or transmissions.
> 
> ...


The manual says that the 09G uses a "lifetime" fluid that doesn't need to be changed... However, there are conflicting opinions on this. I recently had a 120k check and they did not replace the fluid - when I inquired about it, they said it wasn't necessary. The transmission shifts smoothly and there are really no other issues than the small rpm dip in 2nd gear at 1500. I will check for codes and report back.


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## 2.5T\/DUB (Aug 1, 2020)

adam0624 said:


> The manual says that the 09G uses a "lifetime" fluid that doesn't need to be changed... However, there are conflicting opinions on this. I recently had a 120k check and they did not replace the fluid - when I inquired about it, they said it wasn't necessary. The transmission shifts smoothly and there are really no other issues than the small rpm dip in 2nd gear at 1500. I will check for codes and report back.



Ha, I'll let you in on a secret, "lifetime" fluid doesn't actually mean it will last the life of the vehicle, it only means it will last the length of the warranty. Every lubricant breaks down molecularly due to heat, there's no way around it.

Change the fluid/filter in an 09G/09M every 60K miles with OEM fluid if you want it to last. The valve body often shows its age after 100K miles, some sooner or later than others and depends on how hard you drive, but it's better to be safe than sorry. There is a fill-plug in the front to the left down by the pan, it's ironic how it looks exactly like the oil drain plug, you will have to purchase a flexible funnel, and you'll have to drop the pan to change the filter. Every dealer stocks 09G/09M OEM fluid and filters, or hit up USP Motorsports or ECS Tuning for a complete kit.


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## JaxPlanet (Sep 17, 2018)

+1 to "lifetime" meaning the lifetime of the fluid, not you or the car.

As stated above, 60K is the lifetime of most modern transmission fluids. VW recommends 50K as a precaution because customers may put off service for a while or they might be hard on the transmission, like doing a lot of stop and go driving, carrying heavy loads and/or towing.

The VW dealer charged me $300 last fall for fluid/filter change and the DiY kit at Blauparts is $181.

Personally, I hate crawling around under jackstands so I was happy to pay the extra $119 to have VW do the job. They even gave me a loaner to drive while they did the service.

Here's the kit I referred to above and the "Related Helpful Info" tab in the description has excellent instructions you can download:
https://www.blauparts.com/vw-jetta-atf-transmission-fluid-change-kit-aisin.html


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## adam0624 (Jul 13, 2020)

I checked the ecu for any codes and nothing came up fortunately. However, it may be a good idea to look into changing the fluid at some point in the near future. I bought this car last year with about 103k miles on it. It’s been well maintained according to the vehicle history, but I don’t see anything in the history docs saying it had the transmission fluid changed. The order of importance for this car consists as follows:

Change fluid
Install lowering springs
Flash ECU 

Update: I set up an appointment to have the trans flushed Monday. 


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## adam0624 (Jul 13, 2020)

An update;

The car feels a bit peppier and torquier after the flush. However, the problem with the slight rpm drop at 1500 on 2nd still remains. I did not notice this before installing my intake as well as the exhaust, so my conclusion is that I will need a tune to solve this dilemma. 

I am still glad I got the transmission service done to keep it fresh. 


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## JaxPlanet (Sep 17, 2018)

adam0624 said:


> An update;
> 
> The car feels a bit peppier and torquier after the flush. However, the problem with the slight rpm drop at 1500 on 2nd still remains. I did not notice this before installing my intake as well as the exhaust, so my conclusion is that I will need a tune to solve this dilemma.
> 
> ...


What did the shop that serviced the transmission have to say about it?


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## adam0624 (Jul 13, 2020)

JaxPlanet said:


> What did the shop that serviced the transmission have to say about it?


I did not ask them actually, lol. It was a VW dealership. I can always call back and talk to a tech. 


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## adam0624 (Jul 13, 2020)

I wonder if for now, resetting the ECU would fix any issues related to the increase in flow. It may be something to try before going ahead with the tune.


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## JaxPlanet (Sep 17, 2018)

adam0624 said:


> I did not ask them actually, lol. It was a VW dealership. I can always call back and talk to a tech.


Oops! Problems like this are very hard to diagnose over the phone so they might want your car back, which will be more expensive than if they checked it while it was there. Definitely call them, make sure you speak to a tech, and tell them the exact parts of of the exhaust that were replaced. Hopefully, they will be able to rule it in or out as the cause of the problem without having the car.



adam0624 said:


> I wonder if for now, resetting the ECU would fix any issues related to the increase in flow. It may be something to try before going ahead with the tune.


If you are referring to "rebooting" the ECU with a "cap discharge", it wouldn't hurt, except that it will reset your clock, trip counter, and maybe your radio.

If you cut the nylon tie at the bottom of the the front cable they will reach each other so you don't need a jumper wire. Make sure that you re-secure the cable when you are done.


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## adam0624 (Jul 13, 2020)

Yeah I guess the reason I didn’t ask is because I had a feeling they would try to charge for a transmission diagnostic (My mechanic at the dealership wasn’t in today and has apparently been out sick since last week). 

My mind was set on being in and out with the flush. But I do have a feeling it is something ecu related. I reset the ecu earlier this afternoon so we will see if this makes a difference when I take a drive later. I haven’t done anything with the battery connection since installing the exhaust and intake.


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## adam0624 (Jul 13, 2020)

The reset didn’t do much. However, after driving tonight I had an interesting discovery. The little rpm blip on 2nd only seems to be prevalent when I’m not putting that much gas on the pedal... if I’m putting 35% or more on the throttle there is no issue. This leads me to believe it may be some sort of throttle issue... could a throttle issue be caused by excessive, unregistered air flow?


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## JaxPlanet (Sep 17, 2018)

adam0624 said:


> The reset didn’t do much. However, after driving tonight I had an interesting discovery. The little rpm blip on 2nd only seems to be prevalent when I’m not putting that much gas on the pedal... if I’m putting 35% or more on the throttle there is no issue. This leads me to believe it may be some sort of throttle issue... could a throttle issue be caused by excessive, unregistered air flow?


When my TB failed around 50K / 8-years, it happened immediately and was intermittently unresponsive in all gears. It wasn't specific to any gear so you might be able to rule out the TB as the cause. Hopefully, one of the millions of people who know more than I do will chime in with a recommendation.

Otherwise, pay an expert to do the diagnostic and do the work yourself with OEM parts. I kept many an old BMW alive for less with this approach


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## adam0624 (Jul 13, 2020)

JaxPlanet said:


> When my TB failed around 50K / 8-years, it happened immediately and was intermittently unresponsive in all gears. It wasn't specific to any gear so you might be able to rule out the TB as the cause. Hopefully, one of the millions of people who know more than I do will chime in with a recommendation.
> 
> Otherwise, pay an expert to do the diagnostic and do the work yourself with OEM parts. I kept many an old BMW alive for less with this approach


Yes I ruled out the throttle body myself as well because I unplugged and cleaned it with intake cleaner. I also cleaned the MAP sensor which wasn’t really even that dirty. What I also did yesterday was plug the old stock airbox back in to see if I could rule out the intake... I saw no difference with the blip and if anything I noticed a loss of high end torque with the stock setup . 

My assumption is that it has something to do with the custom exhaust setup I have. I’ve read around that some people have a similar “stumbling” issue at low rpms after installing their exhaust due to the computer trying to regulate the new A/F ratio. And some people have it much worse than I do because the stumbling happens much more often. The common fix to this that I’ve seen and [mention]2.5T\/DUB [/mention] pointed out earlier in the thread is reflashing the ECU with new software AKA a tune. 


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## Wes0014 (10 mo ago)

adam0624 said:


> Yes I ruled out the throttle body myself as well because I unplugged and cleaned it with intake cleaner. I also cleaned the MAP sensor which wasn’t really even that dirty. What I also did yesterday was plug the old stock airbox back in to see if I could rule out the intake... I saw no difference with the blip and if anything I noticed a loss of high end torque with the stock setup .
> 
> My assumption is that it has something to do with the custom exhaust setup I have. I’ve read around that some people have a similar “stumbling” issue at low rpms after installing their exhaust due to the computer trying to regulate the new A/F ratio. And some people have it much worse than I do because the stumbling happens much more often. The common fix to this that I’ve seen and [mention]2.5T\/DUB [/mention] pointed out earlier in the thread is reflashing the ECU with new software AKA a tune.
> 
> ...


Hello,

Did you have any luck solving this? My 2015 Passat is doing exactly what you have described and sometimes it downshifts hard to 2nd gear.


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## Boomer Guy (Mar 26, 2021)

This may apply to the above problem and it may not. Anyway, I hope this information is helpful for preventive maintenance.

A fluid change without the filter is only about 2.5 quarts. With the filter change - which requires removing the sump pan - the amount changed is up to 4.0 quarts. Note that the entire quantity of the transmission (*VW 09G Transmission (Aisin-Warner TF-60SN)* is a lot more than that. So, only one ATF change is only replacing part of the total amount. 

When I bought my new-to-me 2008 VW Rabbit with 142K miles on it, I immediately changed the fluid and filter following VW's procedure. The shifting immediately improved. 
At the next 5K miles, I changed the ATF again without changing the filter and there was still some noticeable improvement in quick and smooth shifts.
At the next 5K miles, I changed the ATF again without changing the filter because I wanted to switch to a full synthetic fluid. I had been using* Aisin T-4 aka Aisin T-IV* which is factory recommended. I now use *Amsoil OE ATF* which also has the code *VW G 055 025* and the shifting got even smoother. 
Now I change at 15K mile intervals (no filter change) because I only drive about 7K miles a year and a lot of it is stop-and-go driving. At this rate, I am slowly turning over the fluid in the entire transmission and changing it every 2 years is not expensive since I do it myself.

Note that research has shown that automatic transmissions in cars and light trucks that are not abused and have the fluid changed regularly do not need the filter changed.


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