# Fuel Injected ITB's



## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm currently planning a 16v ABA build, and I want to go with ITB's, but I don't want carbs.

So far, most of the builds I've found all have carbs, and I've spent a lot of time looking for information on google as well, but I guess I'm bad at searching for these things because I can't find any useful information.


Do any of you guys know of a detailed build thread, or just somewhere that I can read about this kind of build and what is required to do it?

Any known issues I should be worried about?
Bad idea in general?


I'm still reading stuff about an ITB set up in general, so any information regarding that would be nice too. Thanks!


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

There are a few different companies that make ITB setups for 16v. Some use Itbs from bikes. You will want to look into standalone engine management to control fuel and spark


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

So basically, I have to deal with getting the ITB's to work properly (opening together, closing, so on) 

Then all I have to do is set the management up to fuel / spark correctly?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

My old boss and I had an SCCA tube frame Scirocco with a 1.8L 8V running GSXR ITBs and a megasquirt2 standalone. It worked quite well and wasn't horrible to set up or tune. But you'll want the ITBs from a 98-02 bike.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

Any reason why I want that year range?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> Any reason why I want that year range?


Yeah those are the only ones that are truly individual... the newer ones are paired like a weber DCOE.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Also be sure to find a set that has the TPS still on it. Limits the range. I found tons of ITBs but only a few had TPS. Luckily they were off a bike and were only $50 :thumbup:


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## airplanewrencher (Oct 14, 2008)

Here is a DIY i did on some local forums regarding GSXR ITBS and a 16v head. Good info on making your manifold and whatnot.

http://dubberz.com/forum/index.php/topic,61149.0.html

Cheers


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

That's awesome! Thanks!

What management are you using?




If I get a set of GSXR TB's, do I want GSXR 750, or 1000?


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> If I get a set of GSXR TB's, do I want GSXR 750, or 1000?


750 and 1000 are the same size and work well for a 1.8-2.0L turning up to ~8000rpms


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

What would you suggest if I was aiming for 9k-10k rpm limit?


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## airplanewrencher (Oct 14, 2008)

I'm using megasquirt( my build isn't quite done)


Do you know how much you want to spend? It gets really expensive making a high rpm high comp na monster. Are you planning on solid lifters? Compression ratio? 94 octane or race gas? Extend of head work?

My setup is this.
Obd1 aba block bored 1mm over
Arp head studs,mainstuds and Conrod bolts
Je 11:1 abf pistons(from integrated engineering)
Gsxr itb's
TT 288 cams
TT hd valve springs
Rest of valve train stock
Very minimal port and polish( more of a cleaning up all the factory cast and machining marks)


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> What would you suggest if I was aiming for 9k-10k rpm limit?


A dry sumped motor and hyabusa ITBs


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

airplanewrencher said:


> I'm using megasquirt( my build isn't quite done)
> 
> 
> Do you know how much you want to spend? It gets really expensive making a high rpm high comp na monster. Are you planning on solid lifters? Compression ratio? 94 octane or race gas? Extend of head work?
> ...


Cost is not a problem, I plan on buying everything piece by piece then building it all at once.

Thinking OBDI ABA bottom end with all new seals and gaskets

ARP bolts / studs on everything

I think ABF pistons, I still want to look into reasonable compression ratios a little more, I'd like to go as high as I can while not risking blowing up my car.

Probably new connecting rods, lighter weight, not sure.

GSXR ITB's

276*cams

Solid lifters

rebuilt valve train, lighter weight, heavy duty parts

Multi-angle valve job

port and polish (probably relatively mild)

With Lugtronic standalone.

The car is going to be a daily, so I would like to keep it on pump gas (hence my compression ratio worries)

I really want to do a 2.0 NA build, but I don't want to spend almost as much on it as I would for a turbo kit, and end up with 30 more HP. I'd like to have a drive-able NA car at around 200hp.




Prof315 said:


> A dry sumped motor and hyabusa ITBs


Any examples? haha, I just kinda want to see it now.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

Any suggestions for where I can read about ignition timing? 

Seeing lots of talk about people having problems with the ignition timing and setting advances and retarding things, and I have no idea what the point of any of it is. 


Thanks.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_timing 

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/MS_Extra_Manual_Index.htm#log 

http://www.tuningmadeeasy.com/tuning/tuning-an-ignition-part-1/ 

Basically, its the tuning aspect if your car that will let you get more power, or completely destroy your engine.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> Cost is not a problem, I plan on buying everything piece by piece then building it all at once.
> 
> Thinking OBDI ABA bottom end with all new seals and gaskets
> 
> ...


 While a drivable 2.0L 200hp N/A motor can be done, you're not going to do it with a 2.0L VW without a dry sump oiling system ( $1500 and up). The factory oiling system is good to about 8000 rpm. You'll need to turn the motor 9000-9500 or more ( like the 2.0L in a Honda S2000) and to do that you HAVE to dry sump it.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

So if i go through with the build using the parts listed, about what kind of power do you think I can expect? 


Thanks.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Without going into pistons or crank, I bet you could do 165 to 175 whp with that setup.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Agreed :thumbup:


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

Found some Helpful seeming threads: 

Dyno Results 
Build thread 

Still reading through everything in the build. 

It looks like he used higher compression pistons and bigger valves than I'm planning, but he was able to hit 195whp after his rebuild, and apparently that is without it being tuned for optimum performance... 


What compression ratio would you guys suggest I aim for? I heard 11:1 and up is risky on pump gas.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

He had bigger pistons, bigger valves, and lighter weight crank. 195 is really, really nice on that setup. With a bigger cam you could start to push some better numbers, along with the bigger valves as well. 

11:1 is fine on pump. My ABA runs at 10.7:1 on 93 with no issues. All it means is you will have to use a tad less timing. But if you are itching for some big numbers, crank that up to 13:1 with 83.5mm pistons and use e85 as your fuel. With 288 cams, good porting, and +.5mm valves, you could crack 200 whp with that puppy. Big bucks though


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Just a note r32 are 11.3:1. You should have no problem with 11:1 on 93


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

Next question I have is about idling.

I feel like this is probably a really stupid question and that I am over-complicating things which is why I am so confused.

How do you get ITB's to idle?

Not Idle smoothly, or consistently, just idle at all. 

The engine I know the best is OBD1 ABA, which uses an IAC / ISV so I'm curious if you use something similar with ITB's, or if its something completely different.


As I said, really stupid question.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> Next question I have is about idling.
> 
> I feel like this is probably a really stupid question and that I am over-complicating things which is why I am so confused.
> 
> ...


Actually all of my ITB/twin sidedraft experience has been that idling is easy even with big cams. Much easier than a plenum manifold and single TB.

That being said, when we did the ITBs on the GTL car we tied the GSXR injector ports together with brass fittings and 3/8 hose and ran them to a digi 1 ISV. but I have put standalone systems on a number of ITB race motors and even without an idle valve they worked fine. Just use the base idle screw on the ITBs


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

Prof315 said:


> Actually all of my ITB/twin sidedraft experience has been that idling is easy even with big cams. Much easier than a plenum manifold and single TB.


its the off idle performance that can be interesting to tune... idle/crank/startup is usually no problem.


they sound wicked... but id probably still do a budget turbo setup. NA power is always more expensive than you think itll be


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

Prof315 said:


> Actually all of my ITB/twin sidedraft experience has been that idling is easy even with big cams. Much easier than a plenum manifold and single TB.
> 
> That being said, when we did the ITBs on the GTL car we tied the GSXR injector ports together with brass fittings and 3/8 hose and ran them to a digi 1 ISV. but I have put standalone systems on a number of ITB race motors and even without an idle valve they worked fine. Just use the base idle screw on the ITBs


Connecting vaccuum lines from each TB to an ISV is actually something I thought of, so good to know I wasn't over complicating haha



ValveCoverGasket said:


> its the off idle performance that can be interesting to tune... idle/crank/startup is usually no problem.
> 
> 
> they sound wicked... but id probably still do a budget turbo setup. NA power is always more expensive than you think itll be



Going boosted is definitely the better bang for your buck, but I do plan on owning more than one car and I feel like starting with NA will help me build a better base knowledge of these cars, or at least the functioning of an engine.

So although I did get into NA expecting a cheaper build, as time went on, I kinda stopped caring about the cost haha.


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## 81type53 (Jun 2, 2008)

If you plan on ITB's try TWM's model for the 16v. A friend of mine has them and they are quiTE Impressive. You'll want to run Electromotive Tec-3 I believe to have worry free driving and the hottest spark etc. Super quality yet Expensive stuff. GL 
I run electromotive XDI on a pretty well built 2.1l 16V motor with dual 45 dcoes and after some Initial tunung by the correct people I have been effortlesly driving It for over a year now with no issues and If I am not hammering It too bad the gas mileage Is even bearable.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

I just googled TWM ITB's and looked around for a minute (seriously not long at all) 

One thing I noticed was the Google Shopping links with prices over $1g, and I'm just kind of curious as to why they are so expensive? 

What would the improvements be over GSXR ITB's? 

I also know that those prices are for a new set of ITB's where as the prices I have looked at for the bike throttles are Used prices, but if there aren't $900 worth of reasons to buy the new throttles, I probably wont. 


Anything you can show me with some more info on electromotive? 


Thanks:beer:


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Twm you get a finished product. You bolt it on and you drive the car. The linkage is figured out. The fuel rail. The tps sensor. Extrudabody also makes a similar setup. 

I am suprised someone actually recommends a electromotive unit. It seems they have not updated their system for quite some years and there are products that do a much better job that are more affordable.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

81type53 said:


> If you plan on ITB's try TWM's model for the 16v. A friend of mine has them and they are quiTE Impressive. You'll want to run Electromotive Tec-3 I believe to have worry free driving and the hottest spark etc. Super quality yet Expensive stuff. GL
> I run electromotive XDI on a pretty well built 2.1l 16V motor with dual 45 dcoes and after some Initial tunung by the correct people I have been effortlesly driving It for over a year now with no issues and If I am not hammering It too bad the gas mileage Is even bearable.


 While Electromotive makes a decent SEM, the tuning software is less than stellar and with all Electromotive systems (Full out SEM or standalone ignition) YOU MUST run a 60-2 trigger wheel. No options. Also it ain't cheap. Megasquirt or Lugtronic are the best bang for the buck.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

bonesaw said:


> Twm you get a finished product. You bolt it on and you drive the car. The linkage is figured out. The fuel rail. The tps sensor. Extrudabody also makes a similar setup.
> 
> I am suprised someone actually recommends a electromotive unit. It seems they have not updated their system for quite some years and there are products that do a much better job that are more affordable.



Ah, seems like a lot of money to avoid a little bit of work.


Also, I see you have a link to Lugnuts tuning in your signature, is that you? or are you just promoting someone who does good work?

Only reason I ask is because I know Lugtronic is in Harrisburg (well not know but I've been told) and your profile says rockaway, nj which looks a little closer.


Basically I'm looking for someone who will be able to tune the car (leaning towards a lugtronic set up) that I can get to easily instead of having a map made for me then giving it a shot.


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Lugtronic is located in Harrisburg area but he does do remote tuning support and does travel for street/dyno/track tuning. He works closely with my buddies shop Caste Systems Performance in Norwood, NJ


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

Getting closer to actually starting this build!

Probably going to start with getting an ABA bottom end and stripping it down, having it cleaned, then rebuilding it / having it rebuilt.

Then the same for the 16v head.

Then finishing building the motor out of the car to run a normal 16v ABA swap on stock management.

Then getting the ITB's and while I get that all set up, save the money for the Lugtronic.

Goal is to have it done by next show season.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

These blocks have oiling issues at really high rpm, we've blown up a few of them so I know what of I speak. If you plan to turn them much over 8000 rpm get oversized bearings that increase the main and rod clearance by 0.001". This is one of our 8v grenades, it happened when coming off throttle at about 8700 rpm.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

DAMN. Thats impressive


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

ABA Scirocco said:


> These blocks have oiling issues at really high rpm, we've blown up a few of them so I know what of I speak. If you plan to turn them much over 8000 rpm get oversized bearings that increase the main and rod clearance by 0.001". This is one of our 8v grenades, it happened when coming off throttle at about 8700 rpm.


 It's the oil pump that causes the starvation issue. Around 8500 rpm or so they start to cavitate.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

There may be problem with the stock oil pump, but there's more going on than just that, we've had similar things happen on engines with an external dry sump style oil pump. The problem is at least somewhat related to how much power the engine produces, a 175bhp motor that's turned 8500rpm seems to be much more reliable than a 195 bhp motor that's turned 8500bhp, I have no way of confirming this but I think something is flexing under extreme load, either the crank or the block, a little extra bearing clearance seems to help the engine withstand this. BTW, the blown up engine in my picture was one of our first 200 bhp 8v's, it had standard bearing clearances.


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## vwjunkie42 (Jan 17, 2003)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> Found some Helpful seeming threads:
> 
> Dyno Results
> Build thread
> ...


 hey thats my motor want to buy my itbs im currently looking into the twm's or badger5 itb's. and may be getting rid of the gsxr itb's. i have been running these flawlessly since the build.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

ABA Scirocco said:


> These blocks have oiling issues at really high rpm, we've blown up a few of them so I know what of I speak. If you plan to turn them much over 8000 rpm get oversized bearings that increase the main and rod clearance by 0.001". This is one of our 8v grenades, it happened when coming off throttle at about 8700 rpm.


 Looks like I'll be setting a rev limit of 8000 haha 

Are there any better oil pumps I could get? Not even to step the RPM's up more, just so that the oiling system works a little better. 





vwjunkie42 said:


> hey thats my motor want to buy my itbs im currently looking into the twm's or badger5 itb's. and may be getting rid of the gsxr itb's. i have been running these flawlessly since the build.


 What are you making the switch? 


As for buying the GSXR's from you, PM me about it. :beer:


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## -RalleyTuned- (Nov 17, 2008)

I did the gsxr throttles on my 16v about 5 years ago. The car ran ms1 v2.2 and it ran decently. The biggest issue with them is that it was never consistent. I was constantly under the hood tweaking the throttles to try and retain a good idle. The biggest issue I found was the intake boot would swell and compress and would get leaks no matter what I tried. 

The car ran well and sounded cool, but in the end I switched to a custom built intake with a single 70mm throttle body. The throttle response was very close and the car made a lot better power and torque. 

Like valvecovergasket said, its not so much the basic tune, its getting the off idle and mid range tuned. Consistency with that setup was difficult and I would never run those or suggest running those on a high power engine. On our race car we are making 185whp and 149ft/lbs running a stock 50mm intake, 276 cams, basic port work, 12:1 compression and ms1. That is a car that runs 30min track sessions at nothing under 4000rpm :laugh: If you want to do ITB's, spend the money on a nice set from TWM or Jenvey (jenvey being my preference) and you won't have to screw with trying to make the bike throttles work.


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

I used ae111 throttles from Toyota and have been very happy with them.


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## vwjunkie42 (Jan 17, 2003)

-RalleyTuned- said:


> I did the gsxr throttles on my 16v about 5 years ago. The car ran ms1 v2.2 and it ran decently. The biggest issue with them is that it was never consistent. I was constantly under the hood tweaking the throttles to try and retain a good idle. The biggest issue I found was the intake boot would swell and compress and would get leaks no matter what I tried.
> 
> The car ran well and sounded cool, but in the end I switched to a custom built intake with a single 70mm throttle body. The throttle response was very close and the car made a lot better power and torque.
> 
> Like valvecovergasket said, its not so much the basic tune, its getting the off idle and mid range tuned. Consistency with that setup was difficult and I would never run those or suggest running those on a high power engine. On our race car we are making 185whp and 149ft/lbs running a stock 50mm intake, 276 cams, basic port work, 12:1 compression and ms1. That is a car that runs 30min track sessions at nothing under 4000rpm :laugh: If you want to do ITB's, spend the money on a nice set from TWM or Jenvey (jenvey being my preference) and you won't have to screw with trying to make the bike throttles work.


 what this guy said. although i disagree with some of what it. i have had no problem with leaks. i have found that after a few years of using as a daily i need to re synch them, but all in all i have been quite happy with them. there are a few reasons i want to go with the jenveys. they are a bit bigger, they look alot cleaner, i will be able to swap trumpets easier. and they will be much easier to keep synched. also i think once i go with the bigger itb and up my fuel pressure i should be able to make over 200 bhp op referred to my build thread in a previous post but for reference specs are 

2L 9A Block 
.040 Wiseco 11:1 pistons 
IE rods 
Balanced crank 
Windage tray 
SCCH intermediate shaft 
Autotech lightweight intermediate gear 
MLS 9A headgasket (stock) 

Ported 1.8L PL Head 
Supertech +.5mm Intake valves backcut to 6.5mm 
Supertech +.5mm Exhaust valves 
Tapered TT guides 
Basic 3-angle valve job 
Supertech valve springs 
Supertech Ti retainers 
German OE lightweight mk4 TDI lifters 
TT 288 cams 
Autotech adj. cam gear @ 3* retarded 
GSXR1000 TB's w/ 3" Velocity of Sound trumpets


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

vwjunkie42 said:


> what this guy said. although i disagree with some of what it. i have had no problem with leaks. i have found that after a few years of using as a daily i need to re synch them, but all in all i have been quite happy with them. there are a few reasons i want to go with the jenveys. they are a bit bigger, they look alot cleaner, i will be able to swap trumpets easier. and they will be much easier to keep synched. also i think once i go with the bigger itb and up my fuel pressure i should be able to make over 200 bhp op referred to my build thread in a previous post but for reference specs are
> 
> 2L 9A Block
> .040 Wiseco 11:1 pistons
> ...


 
Is that your red engine, or the black one? 

Just asking because the beginning of the build for the black motor says you got 11.3:1 pistons


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## vwjunkie42 (Jan 17, 2003)

yes this is the black one and sorry they are 11.3:1


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

I would highly recommend going with TWMs over Jenveys and this is coming from someone that has ran both.


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## vwjunkie42 (Jan 17, 2003)

really, i was looking at the twms as well. a buddy of mine has them on a counterflow 8v and hates them. have you run the dth ones? from the pics i have found it looks like the linkage may not clear the water neck on the front of the head.


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

vwjunkie42 said:


> really, i was looking at the twms as well. a buddy of mine has them on a counterflow 8v and hates them. have you run the dth ones? from the pics i have found it looks like the linkage may not clear the water neck on the front of the head.


 Yes I currently run the dth ones. They come with their own water neck. You can look through my build thread to see this along with pictures of both setups.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

I built this 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...nifold-project-16v-itbs-turbo-intake-manifold page 5 and 6 have the final assembly pics, the first 4 pages are parts gathering and figuring out how to do it. 

what I learned is use the oe injector position, moving the injectors away from the intake valves increases the fuel wall wetting which makes tuning the off idle lean and large throttle close movment over rich impossible to tune out. 

also if you are running a stand alone absolutley make sure you have your wiring dowm pat, no short cuts or you will have electrical noise issues. all sensors should have the the ground wires twisted around the signal wires to prevent inductance issues and the grounds must return to the ecu. you must have a noise free tps signal as there is a drastic change in the fueling for 0-7% throttle position.


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## JakRabit (Aug 8, 2003)

I run jenvey itb setup on my 16v and it came as a kit with fuel rail, injectors, linkage. It costs about 1500 bucks well worth it and it looks badass.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

I think I am going to try to have flanges welded onto the ends of the throttles so I can bolt it to the "manifold" instead of having them connected with silicon couplers.

That way I won't have to deal with them swelling or shifting, which will hopefully make everything work a little smoother.



Now I have heard time and time again that Stand alone is required to run ITB's just because of the difference in sensors used.

Would it be possible to run OEM management with ITB's if I used a plenum?

I would replace the TPS with the TPS for the ITB's, then everything else would be the same.

Think it would work?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> Now I have heard time and time again that Stand alone is required to run ITB's just because of the difference in sensors used.
> 
> Would it be possible to run OEM management with ITB's if I used a plenum?
> 
> ...


Swap the TPS's would only work if they had the same values, it depends upon what OEM management you are considering (it has been done, but I doubt it was very good to drive), and a standalone is generally used due to the fact it is easier to tune for the new setup.


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Do you really want to run cis-e with Itbs? Kinda defeats the purpose.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

bonesaw said:


> Do you really want to run cis-e with Itbs? Kinda defeats the purpose.


:laugh:


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

bonesaw said:


> Do you really want to run cis-e with Itbs? Kinda defeats the purpose.


I might be making an ass out of myself here but,

I don't think I am running CIS-e, the car is already ABA swapped with a matching ECU.

I have never been sure which cars have which fueling though, so that might still be CIS-E.


It wouldn't be the end of the line, just a middle step to get the ITB's on the car and driving sooner rather than later. Pretty much just a random idea I had, and it would be kind of cool if it worked well.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> I might be making an ass out of myself here but,
> 
> I don't think I am running CIS-e, the car is already ABA swapped with a matching ECU.
> 
> ...


ABAs are electronic fuel injection.


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Is the car a 16v or 8v? Either way a plenum is required for maf or fuel management unit


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

Currently the car is an 8v ABA

The motor the ITB's will go on will be a 16v swapped ABA.


If I have to wait until I have everything (mainly the stand alone) I will wait, just trying to think of set ups I can do as steps towards the whole.


Do you think I could get the car running normally (AKA no power loss) with that set up?

Part of the reason I'm even thinking about it is because a friend works for someone who is apparently trying to work out a way to run ITB's on OEM ECU's, although they are going more for OBD2 than OBD1, but I still see it as a step in the right direction if it will work for OBD1...


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

on the newer cars that have MAP sensors sure, but ABA is MAF only and a plenum would be required. You should probability wait until you get the standalone and do it right the first time.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

bonesaw said:


> on the newer cars that have MAP sensors sure, but ABA is MAF only and a plenum would be required. You should probability wait until you get the standalone and do it right the first time.


Getting it to run on the OEM ECU would use a plenum.

That's actually what I was trying to figure out, if it would be possible if I used a plenum to keep the MAF sensor.


None of that is a matter of how I want mine set up, just as a proof of concept really.

Thanks for the help!


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

It MAY work, But without proper tuning it it only going to run as good as a stock ABA.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

bonesaw said:


> It MAY work, But without proper tuning it it only going to run as good as a stock ABA.


That's as far as I would take it. Prove that you can do it on the Stock management, gains or not.

Getting it to actually matter would be up to anybody who actually wanted to run that set up.



I like playing with crazy ideas and thinking up ways to get them to work, just because of what it is more than what it does. 

The actual build plan will stick to what is known to work.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I think the MAF/plenum is probably easier then getting a modded 1 window 16v dizzy working. It seems people even have trouble with that! Make sure you just buy and ABF one to save the headache.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I think the MAF/plenum is probably easier then getting a modded 1 window 16v dizzy working. It seems people even have trouble with that! Make sure you just buy and ABF one to save the headache.


I thought the modified Dizzy was more for the 16v head swap than the ITB's?


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

you really need to check the thread I linked earlier


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

You will need the dizzy mod on stock Motronic management, period.


----------



## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

need_a_VR6 said:


> You will need the dizzy mod on stock Motronic management, period.


I don't think the Op knows that there is no room for the ABA dizzy in the ABA location with a 16V head on the block and the dizzy will have to be in the 16V location, meaning that the 16V dizzy is a 4 window dizzy that will have to be modded to a 1 window dizzy.


----------



## JakRabit (Aug 8, 2003)

I would not advise welding to the t-bodies they will warp. The other problem is you have to run a standalone if you want to make any power on itb's.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

weeblebiker said:


> you really need to check the thread I linked earlier


I looked through it, just haven't had a chance to read it yet.



JakRabit said:


> I would not advise welding to the t-bodies they will warp. The other problem is you have to run a standalone if you want to make any power on itb's.


Didn't think about the throttles warping.. hm 




need_a_VR6 said:


> You will need the dizzy mod on stock Motronic management, period.





ps2375 said:


> I don't think the Op knows that there is no room for the ABA dizzy in the ABA location with a 16V head on the block and the dizzy will have to be in the 16V location, meaning that the 16V dizzy is a 4 window dizzy that will have to be modded to a 1 window dizzy.


I didn't even think about spacing issues.

I was planning on using the 16v dizzy, and I know the windows have to be swapped in from the ABA dizzy, I just wasn't sure why you brought it up.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Because lots of people struggle to make it work.


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## vwjunkie42 (Jan 17, 2003)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Because lots of people struggle to make it work.


listen to this guy he knows what hes talking about. he helped me quite a bit..... hi paul


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

vwjunkie42 said:


> listen to this guy he knows what hes talking about. he helped me quite a bit..... hi paul


Oh I know, I felt special just because he actually responded in the thread to begin with haha.

So far every time I've seen his name he has been dishing out the knowledge :beer::beer:


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Because lots of people struggle to make it work.


I'm still struggling to make it work.


----------



## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

Here's the start of my build thread from 5 years ago:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3176838-16V-MS-ITB-conversion-(lotta-pics)

I've done a bit more to it since I last posted, here's the new ITB manifold, it points the ITBs right into the grill as opposed to the hood like most are setup.










I'm still working on the tuning, once warmed up, it runs great, getting it warmed up is the problem.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

I've been trying to think of how I would like to mount my ITB's if I want to do something like you have and point them directly at the grill, or if I want to do the normal set up.


My main issue is I have read that the length of the runners is very important to the power output of ITB's and that the distance from the throttle to the valves should be controlled and within a certain range to be really effective. 

It could just be the angle of the pictures, but to me your runners look longer than most of the other ones I have seen, and right now I am unsure of exactly how long I would want my runners to be.


Thanks for the link, I should have some free time today to browse through the last few links you guys have posted.


Link to the article talking about runner length

That's the FAQ section on the Jenvey site, they have some information about picking throttle diameter as well as deciding on a runner length.

I haven't tried to figure out what the best length would be, mostly because I want to wait so I can measure everything out myself.


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## xr4tic (Dec 10, 2001)

Good catch on the runner length, I completely forgot about that point.

I had done some calculations and came up with a runner length, but I forget what RPM range I had designed it around and what length numbers I came up with.

I do remember it was MUCH better than just slapping ITBs on and pointing them straight up. Short runners are good for high RPM power, but doing it that way is too short.

My runners are ~9" long from the face of the head to the start of the TB, my original manifold was only 4". Overall length from trumpet to valve ~17" vs ~12"

Plug those numbers into this calculator, and you'll see the difference: http://www.bgsoflex.com/intakeln.html


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

xr4tic said:


> Good catch on the runner length, I completely forgot about that point.
> 
> I had done some calculations and came up with a runner length, but I forget what RPM range I had designed it around and what length numbers I came up with.
> 
> ...



I feel like the throttle diameter would also play a pretty big part in that effect, but that calculator doesn't account for the diameter used to calculate those values.

Unless I'm wrong and the diameter doesn't play a part (which is likely)


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The throat diameter has nothing to do with the resonance frequencies, only in determining the velocity, which matters more once it's "wet" then dry.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

yup diameter doesn't have much to do with harmonics in fluid dynamics. the density of the fluid impacts the harmonic frequency more.


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## ButtedorFrank (Sep 29, 2008)

some usefull information on this thread, I am reading and reading and reading, cause I also want to build a 16v itb ... I wanna build it right without cutting any corners. the plan would be basically to have a good, reliable, peppy engin that I could drive in the summers, go to shows and track and such.its gonna be going into a 4 door mk1 jetta. 

I read that the power you put out has alot to do with the amount of head work you put in. 
does anyone know the difference between the .5mm oversize valves and the 2mm oversize ? I would think better air flow would allow you to put out more power. Could it be too much for an NA engin ? 

I wanna put 288 cams, oversized valves, high compression piston, new bearings, arp bolts, ect. 

the engin I am looking at picking up is out of a b3 passat (9a). 
My question is :why would someone want to take an ABA bottom end instead of a 9a ? from what I had read I thought you could get more out of the 9a bottom end ? 

and I read i'd have to balance the crankshaft, but what is the difference between Autotech 2.1 crank (= OEM TDI crank ?) and the crank in the 9a block ? does the autotech (or tdi) cranks already balanced ? 

sorry for the noob questions, I'm just trying to make sure I understand everything and that I don't miss an important step to make a good motor that will last me a while. 

very usefull thread, keep us updated on your build


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## JakRabit (Aug 8, 2003)

I run almost the exact setup you are talking about but in a mk1 jetta coupe in las vegas. The bottom end is aba though and it runs on e85(ethanol)


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

im running turbo itbs on e85 megasquirt 
just got an aba bottom the main thing is the crank position sensor.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

So I asked about ignition timing a bit ago, and was given some helpful links. 

But now I have another ignition related question; 

So far I have seen people talking about how they are going to control their ignition timing, Map sensor, or alpha-n. 

Alpha-N Explained 
That is the only explanation I have read so far about Alpha-N, but as far as I know, its a pretty solid basic description. 

I have no problems using an aftermarket ignition computer, and I would actually like to head in that direction. 

It seems like people prefer Alpha over MAP as the vacuum advance can be somewhat unreliable? 

Generally, what are the main pro's and con's of each? 
Which will be easier and more dependable in the long run? 
What are the biggest complications of either? 


Thanks guys!


----------



## vwjunkie42 (Jan 17, 2003)

I would also like an answer tonthat question. As I am running Alfa-n for fuel and speed density for spark and feel like its not meshing well.


----------



## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

Also, I just revisited the lugtronic site and saw that it has 8 ignition outputs, does that mean I could use that as the ignition computer as well? 

Also, when I talk about ignition computers I mean things like MSD or Megajolt.


----------



## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

you will find with an ITB car the car runs too differently from 92 kpa to 94 kpa to 96 kpa where on a regular NA car it does not vary to much. To remedy this you will use alpha-N. I can tell you at the track we were originally using the MAP sensor and the car went slow because of the MAP sensor and made adjustments and next run picked up 3 seconds.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The smaller the throttles the less effect like that you get, but there is no way around it. If your car idles ~50kpa you might have a shot as long as you dont want different afr targets in that range. On this kind of tune getting it close and using full time o2 correction is your friend.


----------



## vwjunkie42 (Jan 17, 2003)

question for you paul. 
i dont want to thread jack but thought the info would be good to add here 

i am having trouble tuning my cruising area. when i am cruising at partial throttle and give it a bit more, like to get up a hill, my afr goes lean. i am running alpha-n for fuel. and ign-load or map for ignition. i think whats happening is. that as map goes up timing is advancing and demanding more fuel from the same cells that are fine at lower kph. is there a work around for this. should switch my ignition to alpha-n as well, if so what should my table look like? should i smooth out my ign table so that advance stays constant in an rpm range. i have ego correction on. i may have it set to mild. 
i have posted below screen shots of my ign table and ve table.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

I can't make up my mind on the specifics of this! I keep making small changes to what I want over all.

I am currently waiting to hear from a friend, who is waiting to hear from a friend, about getting a couple of 16v swapped ABA's, so I should be starting some of this build soon. Hopefully.

So far, here is the new plan:


OBDI ABA bottom end with all new seals, gaskets, bearings

ARP bolts / studs on everything

12:1 pistons (I have not looked into this at all, probably unrealistic on pump gas)

Lighter forged rods

Jenvey ITB's (their 16v direct to head kit is now $900, comes with the fuel rail and linkages)

276*cams

Solid lifters (not sure about these, no point in building a head to go to 9k RPM if I can only get to ~8k)

rebuilt valve train, lighter weight, heavy duty parts

Big Valves (was originally against this as I was trying to keep the 16v head close to stock so if I chose to boost I wouldn't have effected anything)

Multi-angle valve job

port and polish (probably relatively mild)

Water Meth, set to kick in at higher RPMS (almost no research for this either, so I'm not sure what would be most effective.)

With Lugtronic standalone.


----------



## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> I can't make up my mind on the specifics of this! I keep making small changes to what I want over all.
> 
> I am currently waiting to hear from a friend, who is waiting to hear from a friend, about getting a couple of 16v swapped ABA's, so I should be starting some of this build soon. Hopefully.
> 
> ...


 :thumbup:


----------



## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

The meth was more because of the high compression on 93 octane, as I said, I haven't looked into compression that high so I am unsure of how safe it is to run regularly, so I threw the meth in as a safety net.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

The 20/20 I tuned ran great at 12:1 on 93 at 32deg total timing (dyno tuned).


----------



## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

ABA Scirocco said:


> These blocks have oiling issues at really high rpm, we've blown up a few of them so I know what of I speak. If you plan to turn them much over 8000 rpm get oversized bearings that increase the main and rod clearance by 0.001". This is one of our 8v grenades, it happened when coming off throttle at about 8700 rpm.


Has anyone else done or heard of the oversized bearings being used?

Even worth looking into if I plan on limiting my revs at 8k?

Are there any improvements I can make to the oiling system? A better OEM pump or anything?


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

We use stock bearings and stock oil pumps. Revving motors to 9k with no issues


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## simon-says (Oct 21, 2007)

That pile of parts looks to me like a rod bolt failure. The head is missing off of one bolt. There can be many reasons why it happened, but to me. 8700rpms to low rpms at full vacuum = rod bolt stretch.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

simon-says said:


> That pile of parts looks to me like a rod bolt failure. The head is missing off of one bolt. There can be many reasons why it happened, but to me. 8700rpms to low rpms at full vacuum = rod bolt stretch.


Would ARP hardware resolve this possibility?




bonesaw said:


> We use stock bearings and stock oil pumps. Revving motors to 9k with no issues


Are there any upgrade options for the pump? 

any difference between the ABA and the 16v pumps?


----------



## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> Would ARP hardware resolve this possibility?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ARP hardware (especially rod bolts and head bolts/studs) is ALWAYS a good idea on a high revving motor.

The safest way to build a high revving (over 8000 rpm) VW 4 cylinder water cooled engine is to use a dry sump. For drag racing or street use where you aren't hanging the motor at 9000 for a couple of minutes you _should_ be ok with a stock oil pump. BUT, if something goes wrong thing will come apart in a hurry and you can probably write off the tranny as well as the engine.

ABA and 16V oil pumps have different ends on the drive shaft. You can however retrofit a 16V oil pump into an ABA if you grab a 2.0L 16V oil pump drive and plug.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

Prof315 said:


> ARP hardware (especially rod bolts and head bolts/studs) is ALWAYS a good idea on a high revving motor.
> 
> The safest way to build a high revving (over 8000 rpm) VW 4 cylinder water cooled engine is to use a dry sump. For drag racing or street use where you aren't hanging the motor at 9000 for a couple of minutes you _should_ be ok with a stock oil pump. BUT, if something goes wrong thing will come apart in a hurry and you can probably write off the tranny as well as the engine.
> 
> ABA and 16V oil pumps have different ends on the drive shaft. You can however retrofit a 16V oil pump into an ABA if you grab a 2.0L 16V oil pump drive and plug.


The reason I asked about the difference in pumps is because the two ways the 16v head swap can be done. One way using the 16v pump and IM shaft, and the other way, using the BBM Dizzy Gizzy and retaining the ABA pump.


I am leaning more towards retaining the ABA pump, just so there is a bit less mix and matching.


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## ABA Scirocco (May 30, 2001)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> I am leaning more towards retaining the ABA pump, just so there is a bit less mix and matching.


I'd be leaning the other way stock 16v parts are cheaper, at least as good and a fair bit easier to use. Using the dizzy gizzy also requires you to get the BBM intermediate shaft sprocket as the normal 16v sprocket doesn't fit the ABA intermediate shaft so you'll be sending at least $240 to BBM just to drive the oil pump when there are perfectly suitable stock parts that can be had for a fraction of that especially if you've got parts from the engine that donated your 16v head.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

So last night I made the first big move towards getting this started.

Paid for most of this:

EXTRAS:
1x OBD1 ABA (complete)
1x OBD1 16v/ABA disassembled:
Ported 16v head w/ Ti retainers/HD springs
Eurospec main bearings (New in box)
OE rod bearings (NIB)
ARP main studs (NIB)
ARP rod bolts (NIB)
ARP head studs (NIB)
AWIC intercooler
AMS 16V manifold
Eurosport underdrive pulley clearanced for 16v/ABA



As part of a group buy a friend and I are doing. Also getting a set of GSXR ITB's with the deal too.

Now I just need to get it from 10 hours away :[


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

This is now turbo AND Itbs?


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

bonesaw said:


> This is now turbo AND Itbs?


No, but the 16v ABA was originally being built for boost.

It is part of a much larger deal, a friend of a friend (seller) is moving, so he is trying to get everything out of his house before he leaves.

My friend was interested in it because he is getting a monty green gti thats wired for a VR swap, a VR, a whole bunch of other parts, then the stuff I posted.

I wanted the ABA stuff, so we set up a group thing where I buy this stuff, he gets the shell and VR, and other people we know are getting other odds and ends.


However, I think once I get the 16v in my car, I'm going to start building another motor for boost. :beer:


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

:thumbup: for turbo'd ITBs. Those things sound amazing. :thumbdown: on having to build the plenum for them


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

SirSpectre said:


> :thumbup: for turbo'd ITBs. Those things sound amazing. :thumbdown: on having to build the plenum for them


Maybe one day, but for now, I'm all N/A.


Jenvey sells plenums I think btw :beer:


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## vwjunkie42 (Jan 17, 2003)

Idont think the jenvey plenums are made to hold boost.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

http://www.jenvey.co.uk/home/turbo-plenum

They make plenums for boost as well as normal ones. :beer:


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

83.5mm pistons.
Yay or Nay?

If I have done the math right, it should bring my overall displacement from 1984cc to 2032cc as well as bring my bore / stroke ratio to ~0.90:1 from 0.89:1 stock.

And from what I can tell, the closer to square / Oversquare, the better? (allows for easier revving to high RPMs)

Although I guess since I'm not changing the stroke, it really wouldn't matter in that aspect.


----------



## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

So after my last post, I started reading about compression ratios, and how to raise or lower them.

Realized I literally had no idea what I was dealing with,, and that my last post is kinda dumb.


So I am trying to do as much research as I can before I actually get my parts, but I realized I can't really do many theory measurements, as when I get the head I am going to have bigger valves put in as well as a multi-angle valve job, and I feel like this is going to alter the CC's of the combustion chamber. Will any changes to the volume be significant enough that I should wait to get the head work done and measure, or would I be safe to do some rough guesses using values for the combustion chamber I have found?


_Quote, originally posted by *CrackerX* »_I measured the cylinder head combustion chambers of a 1.8L and 2.0L head with a Bosh triple copper plug installed. The 1.8L head was 41.6cc's on average, and the 2.0L head was 43.4cc's on average with a +-.2 cc error margin. Very different from the 45cc "accepted" value. Neither head had been shaved as far as I could tell...


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

Going to pick up the engine and various other parts for this this weekend. 

Then its time to start stockpiling parts!


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

Over the weekend I drove out to Ohio and came back with enough parts to have a 16v ABA on ITB's assembled by the end of next month. BUT, that would be all stock internals, and no more head work than just a PnP. 

Unfortunately, now that I have most of the parts I need to get started, I have to deal with a more serious problem with my car. Floors need to be replaced ASAP. UGH:banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## Rdoppie (Dec 9, 2004)

good luck 
opcorn:always been a dream project for me to Build a spare 16v 2.1L on ITBs 
never had the :banghead: to actually start it


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

Alrighty, So its time to buy my valve train. But the question is have now is, should I have the head flow benched before I decide on valve sizes?


----------



## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Depends how much money you want to spend.


----------



## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

ITBs LOVE big valves. Go over sized either way. Don't bother flowbench before porting IMO.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

bonesaw said:


> Depends how much money you want to spend.


Would it be worth the money though?




SirSpectre said:


> ITBs LOVE big valves. Go over sized either way. Don't bother flowbench before porting IMO.


The head has already been PnP'ed, I just don't want to go too big on the valves and end up with terrible velocity. 

32.5mm Intake / 28mm Exhaust
34mm Intake 28.5 Exhaust

Or should I piece together a valve train instead of buying a kit?


----------



## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

So far the build threads I have read on here, including the ones linked earlier, and some I found, they have used +.5mm valves, so that's what I'm going to use.

Downside, I found a pretty good deal on a completely unrelated part, so I might have to pick that up before I can buy my valve train.

Yay for parts ADD :banghead::banghead:


----------



## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Anything good?


----------



## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

bonesaw said:


> Anything good?


020 trans with a quaife LSD and the same Trans code I had in my jetta and loved.


----------



## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

I hope 3.94.


----------



## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

Code 1st. 2nd. 3rd. 4th. 5th. R&P Notes
CHE 3.45 1.94 1.28 0.97 0.80 3.67 From '93 115hp,Large input shaft

"Borrowed" from Broke's site.


----------



## vwjunkie42 (Jan 17, 2003)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> So far the build threads I have read on here, including the ones linked earlier, and some I found, they have used +.5mm valves, so that's what I'm going to use.
> 
> Downside, I found a pretty good deal on a completely unrelated part, so I might have to pick that up before I can buy my valve train.
> 
> Yay for parts ADD :banghead::banghead:


You can often find deals on super tech valves on eBay. I went with the +.5 undercut, and if your spending the money go with the tapered guides as well.


----------



## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

vwjunkie42 said:


> You can often find deals on super tech valves on eBay. I went with the +.5 undercut, and if your spending the money go with the tapered guides as well.


Because the head has already been PnP'd, I think I'm going to have it flow benched to get some base line numbers before I buy anything.

Before I bought the head I was told it was "very port and polished" so now I'm terrified that I'm going to spend a bunch of money on valves, and end up with a head that flows like garbage for what I'm trying to do.


----------



## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Don't worry about velocity for ITBs. They will give very high velocities either way.


----------



## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> Because the head has already been PnP'd, I think I'm going to have it flow benched to get some base line numbers before I buy anything.
> 
> Before I bought the head I was told it was "very port and polished" so now I'm terrified that I'm going to spend a bunch of money on valves, and end up with a head that flows like garbage for what I'm trying to do.


I would recommend using SCCH for your headwork. Jarod can also flow bench your head before and after to show you the difference.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

frechem said:


> I would recommend using SCCH for your headwork. Jarod can also flow bench your head before and after to show you the difference.


didnt he move somewhat recently? i thought i tried looking him up a while back and he wasnt on the west coast anymore...


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

frechem said:


> I would recommend using SCCH for your headwork. Jarod can also flow bench your head before and after to show you the difference.


This involves shipping the head out, then shipping the parts to him if he is assembling the head (which I plan on having done by the shop) 
Budz Motorsports

This is the machine shop I had planned on using as it is 10 minutes from my house.



ValveCoverGasket said:


> didnt he move somewhat recently? i thought i tried looking him up a while back and he wasnt on the west coast anymore...


Yes he did move (just checked the site) and he moved to the East Coast which would make shipping a little easier and faster, but not close enough that I would no longer have to ship the parts to him.


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> This involves shipping the head out, then shipping the parts to him if he is assembling the head (which I plan on having done by the shop)
> Budz Motorsports
> 
> This is the machine shop I had planned on using as it is 10 minutes from my house.
> ...


I'm telling you it's worth it. My first P&P was done by a local shop in WA and it actually flowed worse than a stock head in certain valve lift ranges. The head had a second go-round by Jarod at SCCH and he made a HUGE improvement.

Here are some flow graphs for my head,


----------



## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Sweet baby J  I think When I get my head PnP'd, definitely going that route.


----------



## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

Damn you Frechem.

Why am I mad at you? Because when I started planning this I made the decision that what ever I'm doing, I'm going to do the best way I can, and now you're screwing things up by hating on the machine chop I was thinking of using and pointing out the throttles I was looking at aren't very good.

:banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

He is just trying to help from his experience. Maybe the machine shop will be fine but many have found machinists that specialize in VWs many times do it better.

I would also steer away from bike ITBs. they make throttle response very touchy and the throw is extremely short.


----------



## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

bonesaw said:


> I would also steer away from bike ITBs. they make throttle response very touchy and the throw is extremely short.


That can be remedied by modifying the throttle cam that the cable attaches to.


----------



## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

That's what I was going to say but the terminology escaped me


----------



## vwjunkie42 (Jan 17, 2003)

I would not do bike itbs. I ran gxxr itbs on my car for almost two years and yes the made good power. And can be done on the cheap. But now that I have my badger 5 set up it is like night and day. The drivability and easy tuning made me wish that I had just spent the extra 500 or so more, years ago. Do your self a favor do it the right way the first time or in a few years if you still want itbs you will end up buying new ones. I did and can't be happier.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

At this point I might run the bike ITB's as a temporary set up just to get it running on ITB's, as I already own a set of bike throttles (included in the parts pick up I did a few weeks ago)

End game I will be going with either the TWM's or the Jenvey ITB's (aren't Badger5 throttles the same as the Jenvey throttles?)

I was originally going to go with the Jenvey's, but Frechem pointed out a handful of flaws in them, so now I'm going to look into the TWM's a bit more, even though they cost more than I paid for the car itself :banghead:


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

There's no n in my name.


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## vwjunkie42 (Jan 17, 2003)

Yes badger 5 and jenvey are the same itbs. Bill at badger 5 gets them grime jenvey and installs his linkage so you can use the stock Vw cable. As for flaws the only thing I did not like about them was the fuel rail but with some custom brackets I was able to run a Vw 1.8t rail.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

frechem said:


> There's no n in my name.


Sorry about that, I'll go back and fix it haha



vwjunkie42 said:


> Yes badger 5 and jenvey are the same itbs. Bill at badger 5 gets them grime jenvey and installs his linkage so you can use the stock Vw cable. As for flaws the only thing I did not like about them was the fuel rail but with some custom brackets I was able to run a Vw 1.8t rail.


Here is the post from *Frechem* when I asked why he preferred the TWM's over the Jenvey's;



frechem said:


> Sure. Here are a few pros and cons off the top of my head.
> 
> Jenvey Pro
> 
> ...


Before I had even asked him, I had noticed that you need to tap the Jenvey's for vacuum off the bat, and I was kind of unhappy about the idea of taking my brand new $1g part and drilling holes in it when I just spent $800 more than I would have on bike throttles just so they would be a direct bolt on.


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## vwjunkie42 (Jan 17, 2003)

All good points. Taping wasn't that bad. I'm running a 1.8t rail with stock Vw fpr. jenvey sells a dished filter plate. maching them wasn't so bad and the badger linkage works real nice. I see where he is coming from but with a little DIY knowage i found it nice not to spend the extra $. Plus when I went to order the twm ones the where back ordered till the end of the year.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

vwjunkie42 said:


> All good points. Taping wasn't that bad. I'm running a 1.8t rail with stock Vw fpr. jenvey sells a dished filter plate. maching them wasn't so bad and the badger linkage works real nice. I see where he is coming from but with a little DIY knowage i found it nice not to spend the extra $. Plus when I went to order the twm ones the where back ordered till the end of the year.


Part of the reason I decided to step away from bike throttles was for a direct bolt on application, I'm not a fan of the idea of paying 10x as much for a set of throttles, and still have to do do 75% of the modification the bike throttles would have required. 

then again, the throttles and stand alone are going to be some of the last things I get for this, so I still have plenty of time to really make up my mind.


Hopefully picking up this transmission this weekend, then all extra money I get will be getting set aside for the valve train and head work.

I'm going to start talking to Jarod at SCCH about some work and some prices, turn around times, and all sorts of other fun stuff.


Frechem, what was your power at the wheels last time you dyno'd it? Last graph I saw was from 2010 and had you at ~165

I saw that you went with the stg4 head from SCCH, which is what I'm going to be doing, but I also saw that you have your rev limit at ~7500.

I'm beginning to get kinda worried that my power goals are unrealistic.


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> Frechem, what was your power at the wheels last time you dyno'd it? Last graph I saw was from 2010 and had you at ~165
> 
> I saw that you went with the stg4 head from SCCH, which is what I'm going to be doing, but I also saw that you have your rev limit at ~7500.
> 
> I'm beginning to get kinda worried that my power goals are unrealistic.


That graph is from the last time I dyno'd my car. I haven't done anything to the motor since then except for some tuning. 

I have my rev limit set at 7500 because I don't need to go any higher. From my other dyno runs I can tell I start losing power around that point so that's where I set it. I'm sure the head could take it but my bottom end isn't built for high RPMs.

If you're looking for 200 whp then be willing to spend a MAJOR amount of money. A 9000 RPM motor will help you get to 200 whp but that will be a very high sprung race motor.

I would not recommend chasing numbers. That can be a huge waste of time and money.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

frechem said:


> That graph is from the last time I dyno'd my car. I haven't done anything to the motor since then except for some tuning.
> 
> I have my rev limit set at 7500 because I don't need to go any higher. From my other dyno runs I can tell I start losing power around that point so that's where I set it. I'm sure the head could take it but my bottom end isn't built for high RPMs.
> 
> ...


When you dyno'd the higher rev limit, which throttles were you using? the 45mm or the 48mm? Just curious if it would make a difference.

I'm going to have my Rev limit set at 8500 so I would be shifting just after 8k.


I'm also going to be using an OBD1 ABA bottom end which I'm also building towards higher revs and high compression.

I would absolutely love to run 12:1 CR, but at the same time, I'm worried that at some point in time I'll end up getting some bad gas and having things go wrong.

I've been thinking about stepping down to 11.5:1 and seeing how that works out, and if I'm unhappy with it, going up to 12.


as I said, I'll be contacting Jarod shortly about the build and see what he suggests.


Thanks again for all your help, I don't want to bother you, you just have a but load of experience in this area as you've tried different things.


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> When you dyno'd the higher rev limit, which throttles were you using? the 45mm or the 48mm? Just curious if it would make a difference.
> 
> I'm going to have my Rev limit set at 8500 so I would be shifting just after 8k.
> 
> ...


I found out my limit on both sizes and set my rev limit accordingly. 

Contacting Jarod would be a great idea as he has a wealth of knowledge on the subject.

Also, I'm not sure an ABA block would be the best for a high reving motor. It is a tall block and therefore has a longer rod length I believe. This is good for torque but not so much for revs. I know the FI guys like it because of the forged crank and oil squirters but that is something you might want to research.

I'll keep answering your questions to the best of my abilities. You're not bothering me at all. That's why we're here, to learn from one another. :thumbup:


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

frechem said:


> I found out my limit on both sizes and set my rev limit accordingly.
> 
> Contacting Jarod would be a great idea as he has a wealth of knowledge on the subject.
> 
> ...


I know there are better blocks for higher revs, but there is just something about the ABA that I love. And I figure the shorter stroke makes it more reliable as there is less wear on the parts because they don't need to move as fast, but I won't be revving out to 7g+ constantly, so I feel like I'll be fine using the ABA.

I'm going to re-read vwjunkie's build thread for the motor he got to 195whp on bike throttles, see what he did, and go from there. 

Will you be going to Waterfest next year? I'm pretty mad I missed you at h20, I would have loved to see your car in person!


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

I can attest to not chasing #s. I really wanted to make 200whp. On the dyno I made 178whp on a superflow. It may be closer to 200whp on a dynojet but havent had the time to redyno. I was a little bummed but the car still boogies. Pulls to 8700rpm. It didnt gain much power past 8200 but it did not lose. I am running 20v head with AE111 45mm ITBs. No porting has been done yet. 12:1 using a mk4 2.0 block. if this is going into mk2 or later it may be something to look into. Internal waterpump. already 2.0. shorter rods. Some have oil squirters. Internal trigger wheel over a 16v block. ABA will also work out fine but not the only option. my recommendation is to continue doing research so you can do it right the first time.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

frechem said:


> I would not recommend chasing numbers. That can be a huge waste of time and money.


indeed, and its unlikely youll really feel the last 10hp on the street anyway... let alone be operating up there often enough to notice


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

What I currently Have:

PnP'd 16v head, completely disassembled
OBD1 ABA bottom end, completely disassembled
Freshly balanced ABA crank
ARP head bolts, rod bolts, and I believe Main bolts
16v manifold flange
All of the internals for the ABA16v, still not 100% on what they are out of.
Eurospec underdrive LW crank pulley (not sure if I'll be using this)
All accessories

What I own but don't have in my possession yet:
GSXR ITB's no idea what all is on them, still haven't seen them 


Shopping list:
Complete Valvetrain (not sure if parts are included in the cost listed on SSCH)
Cams (276 or 288)
All gaskets and seals for the block
All Bearings for the block
Rods
Pistons 83.5mm 11.3-12:1 CR (leaning more towards 11.3 now because of VWjunkie's build)
Lugtronic ECU
TWM ITB's (45mm unless I know I will benefit from going larger)
Any remaining ARP hardware
Custom "tuned" header


Those are the main things I'm going to be getting off the top of my head, I know there is more, I'll just have to get it when I realize I don't have it already.

I still need to look into fueling, but as far as I can tell I will only need an adjustable FPR, or possible injectors.


I've started setting money aside for this, and will probably start making moves once I have enough for the head work.


I hate how close I am to being able to do this, but at the same time, I'm pretty far away. :banghead:


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> What I currently Have:
> 
> PnP'd 16v head, completely disassembled
> OBD1 ABA bottom end, completely disassembled
> ...


Parts are not included into the price of a SCCH head. However, he might be able to get some deals for you on stuff if you order everything through him. If you go with TWM ITBs you won't need an FPR as they already have one. If you are increasing your displacement and/or CR and running 288 cams then I would suggest going with 48mm bodies. I would only run 45s on a "stockish" motor.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

frechem said:


> Parts are not included into the price of a SCCH head. However, he might be able to get some deals for you on stuff if you order everything through him. If you go with TWM ITBs you won't need an FPR as they already have one. If you are increasing your displacement and/or CR and running 288 cams then I would suggest going with 48mm bodies. I would only run 45s on a "stockish" motor.


Wow, that was honestly the only reason I could see the price tag on the stg4 head being $2,500

I can get the same work done, as well as get a ferrea valve train and pay less than or about that at the shop around here.


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> Wow, that was honestly the only reason I could see the price tag on the stg4 head being $2,500
> 
> I can get the same work done, as well as get a ferrea valve train and pay less than or about that at the shop around here.


Maybe it is then.  I thought it wasn't but I may be wrong. Better ask him just to be certain.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

bonesaw said:


> I can attest to not chasing #s. I really wanted to make 200whp. On the dyno I made 178whp on a superflow. It may be closer to 200whp on a dynojet but havent had the time to redyno. I was a little bummed but the car still boogies. Pulls to 8700rpm. It didnt gain much power past 8200 but it did not lose. I am running 20v head with AE111 45mm ITBs. No porting has been done yet. 12:1 using a mk4 2.0 block. if this is going into mk2 or later it may be something to look into. Internal waterpump. already 2.0. shorter rods. Some have oil squirters. Internal trigger wheel over a 16v block. ABA will also work out fine but not the only option. my recommendation is to continue doing research so you can do it right the first time.


Do you still run a hydro head?


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> Do you still run a hydro head?


Yes


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## redrbt2.5 (May 11, 2009)

frechem said:


> Maybe it is then.  I thought it wasn't but I may be wrong. Better ask him just to be certain.


I just called jarod yesterday for work on my head and for his stage 3, .5mm oversized valves, adjustable can gear, and various other valve train parts he quoted 2500. Also a 3 month wait

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

redrbt2.5 said:


> I just called jarod yesterday for work on my head and for his stage 3, .5mm oversized valves, adjustable can gear, and various other valve train parts he quoted 2500. Also a 3 month wait
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Last E-mail I got from him told me the price on his page is old, and the parts are not included in the price. Didn't give me the updated price though.

Still trying to figure out if I'm going to do a solid head conversion or keep it hydro.

Jarod is saying go solid, but Bonesaw is revving up to 8700 on a Hydro head...


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

I am 20v though. It also depends on what you are using the car for.


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

bonesaw said:


> I am 20v though. It also depends on what you are using the car for.


True. It also depends on your bottom end as well.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

bonesaw said:


> I am 20v though. It also depends on what you are using the car for.


Yea, right after I posted I thought I remembered you saying you were 20v not 16, so the Solid head choice is pretty much up to Jarod haha.

I have no problems with going to a solid head, so if I need to do it to rev as high as I would like, I'll do it.


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Mk4 2.0 bottom end. 92.8mm crank 144mm rods. 82.7mm pistons. 12.3:1 CR


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

We spun Mendras to 9300 but we permanently collapsed the intake lifters the week later while street tuning it.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

need_a_VR6 said:


> We spun Mendras to 9300 but we permanently collapsed the intake lifters the week later while street tuning it.


So are you voting Hydro or Solid to rev to 8500?


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Sycoticmynd29 said:


> So are you voting Hydro or Solid to rev to 8500?


Depends on your budget and what you plan on doing with the car. Is it a street car? Drag? Road race? ???


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Street car, hydro and keep the revs down. Race car, do solid. Its that simple.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

bonesaw said:


> Depends on your budget and what you plan on doing with the car. Is it a street car? Drag? Road race? ???





need_a_VR6 said:


> Street car, hydro and keep the revs down. Race car, do solid. Its that simple.


Going to be a daily that sees the track.

Why keep it hydro if its a street car?


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Hydro is drive the car. its that simple. Solid may need to be adjusted, rechecked, re shimmed every X amount of miles.


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## frechem (Oct 19, 2002)

There is no need to go solid given your intentions for the car.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

Motor that is currently in the car decided to develop a healthy case of rod knock.

Awesome. :banghead:

Waiting for room at my friend's shop, then checking the cylinder walls.

Clean cylinders and I'll be replacing what ever internals I need to.

Not clean cylinders and I'll be putting in another ABA.


Huge pain the my ass, but I already have the other engine, so this is more a matter of time to get it done than it is cost to get it done.


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## Sycoticmynd29 (Jan 17, 2011)

So I'm trying to buy another car.

My mk2 is way too unreliable and I have way too big of a project to consider keeping it as my daily, and regardless if the motor in the mk2 is shot or not, I would need a second car eventually anyway, just so I'd have something while doing body work and bigger parts of the project. Currently I have an opportunity to pick up a 2000 GTI 1.8t with low mileage, adult owned, well maintained, and in over all good shape, for the awesome price of $2,500. So that's what I'm hoping for in the meantime.

I'm also trying to make up my mind with how to proceed with this. It's pretty clear I don't know enough now to really build this motor as well as I want this motor built. I also have a bunch of other things going on which require my financial attention in places other than my car, so I currently don't have the funds to build the motor I want to.

I am kinda leaning towards rethinking the project all together. I still want a high revving, high compression motor on ITB's, but as we talked about earlier in this thread, the ABA may not be the best base for it. I kind of want to look into the other options as far as starting point go, to see if there is something better out there that will make the same kind of power with less strain on the motor.

In the meantime, I would assemble the 16v ABA I have already, throw some cams in it, get a chip, and run that while I do other things to the car, such as the body work. It will be a much cheaper build (I have almost everything already) and will allow me to continue saving up money for the real build, as well as get some of the much needed body work done to my car.


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