# S3 Cams - Both Intake & Exhaust vs Just Intake VS CAT Stage 1 Cams ?



## playback (Jun 14, 2007)

So half the people I talk to say the S3 cams make no differances and the other half says it's around 10hp and moves the power further up the rev range.

My intake cam was damaged a while back and we kept using it to see if it was salvagable. Well it is still working but eating cam followers so in the next few months will need to upgrade anway.

1.The primary reason is a different lobe on the cam for the fuel pump which reportedly helps with cam follower wear and slightly more feuling.
2.Reason two would be to try and extract a few more horses ... if available.

So if I just went S3 intake cam number 1 is solved but more hp .... hmmmm. Debatable. 

The question 
i have though is what would be the benefit of going S3 intake and S3 exhaust cam at the same time vs just going S3 intake cam. So if they were matched correctly would your end results be better ?

Any S3 latest gen 2011 cam spec model numbers ? Reportedly these make more HP.:laugh:

Surely the manafacturer would have optimised timing for the slightly bigger Turbo....again debatable .

And what about the TT S cams. They should also be around the same if not higher spec than S3.


Then you also get the CAT and Schrick cams. Schrick and Euro Sport also are very expensive around $1900.

Cat stage 1 I am still yet to see any pricing on them yet.....anyone know off hand ? 
Do these have the same fuel lobe as the S3 ?
HP gain ?


----------



## Slowboat (Feb 12, 2003)

Had a set of S3 cams in my GT3071 setup after bending valves.
Before the failure I had the stock cams.
Between the two I saw no difference in logs (MAF, Timing, Boost, rpm range, etc...) up here on the Reef (1650m) or at the Lowveld (600m). Also with my bum dyno I felt no difference.
Pity I didn't have it on the dyno, before and after.

I bought a set of CAT Cams (Stage 1), for US$1100, end of last year and only recently installed. Those didn't survive more than 7Km in the car . Just sent an email to CAT Cams to see what their response is before posting the failure.

If you have to change the inlet cam most properly get the S3 one, but otherwise, in my opinion, don't buy the S3 cams.


----------



## playback (Jun 14, 2007)

Thanks Volker 

Until you had a failure on the Stage 1 cat cams how did you find them ?

My car is running really really badly at the moment. Check my rides thread on vwclub.

Pulled 12 degrees timing today :thumbdown:


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

S3 inlet cam is the same as the GTI cam. The Fuel lobe has more lift, but that's it. 

The S3 exhaust cam has slightly more duration. 

I have both. I didn't notice a difference. Not much changed with tuning.


----------



## playback (Jun 14, 2007)

Thanks Arin. That's some good info.

Ideally the higher duration on the ham should theoretically help yield more power correct ?

Must be very minor if nobody is noticing any power gain from them.

Anyone else done cat cams stage 1 ?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

playback said:


> Anyone else done cat cams stage 1 ?


Yes. I did. Unless they changed the design per my suggestions, I would not recommend experimenting with the cat cams. I ran into several issues such as keyways in the wrong location and fuel lobes tightened down out of alignment.


----------



## Slowboat (Feb 12, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Yes. I did. Unless they changed the design per my suggestions, I would not recommend experimenting with the cat cams. I ran into several issues such as keyways in the wrong location and fuel lobes tightened down out of alignment.


Yeah, I saw two keyway was cut on the exhaust cam for the timing belt sprocket. At least they were far enough from each to pick out the right one.
My CAT Cam fuel lobes had markings that the cam follower wasn't running 100% center. It was running towards the left hand side.

I bought my end of last year and now I see that they have three new sets. Stage 1, stage 2 and stage 3. Previously they only had two stage 1 and 2. I wonder if they changed any of the design since my cam version.

Need to ask them.

@PlayBack
Unfortunately I didn't have any proper runs on those cams until the cams let me down. 7kms was bearly enough to warmup the engine. I didn't notice any difference on normal driving. Was nippy as ever, but then the engine was still cool so that would help in being nippy.
I was getting ready to setup the EBC with one run to 4000/4500rpm at WOT to make sure that the EBC was working at 0.7Bars, which it did. As I was about to do a full pull to 7000rpm the cam let go at around 3000/3500rpm. Luckily not at 7000rpm. Most properly more damage would have happened there.


----------



## IMAN973 (Jun 1, 2006)

What does the keyway have to do with timing? Has anyone used an adjustable cam gear? there is no timing marks at all so then the position of the keyway doesnt matter. Even the nuespeed crank pully doesnt have timing marks. I just measure tdc myself everytime that way it wont matter if the keyway or the pully doesnt line up with the oem marks.


----------



## Slowboat (Feb 12, 2003)

It's the key way slot on the end of the exhaust cam shaft by cylinder one (timing belt cover side) where the timing belt sprocket bolts onto. It had two key way slots to choose from.

The VVT unit has a little pin that will slot into a groove on the opposite side (battery side).

Use the wrong key way slot it will be like a few teeth off on the cam belt, which will mean some bent valves, that's if you follow the OEM timing marks.


----------



## IMAN973 (Jun 1, 2006)

Slowboat said:


> It's the key way slot on the end of the exhaust cam shaft by cylinder one (timing belt cover side) where the timing belt sprocket bolts onto. It had two key way slots to choose from.
> 
> The VVT unit has a little pin that will slot into a groove on the opposite side (battery side).
> 
> Use the wrong key way slot it will be like a few teeth off on the cam belt, which will mean some bent valves, that's if you follow the OEM timing marks.


I already know that... but my point is you can still time the motor with the other slot. Try installing an adjustiable gear.


----------



## Slowboat (Feb 12, 2003)

Sorry miss understood you there.


----------



## IMAN973 (Jun 1, 2006)

Slowboat said:


> Had a set of S3 cams in my GT3071 setup after bending valves.
> Before the failure I had the stock cams.
> Between the two I saw no difference in logs (MAF, Timing, Boost, rpm range, etc...) up here on the Reef (1650m) or at the Lowveld (600m). Also with my bum dyno I felt no difference.
> Pity I didn't have it on the dyno, before and after.
> ...


Who did you buy the cams from? I have personaly installed cat stg 1-3 and haven't had any bad feedback from customers. What were your issues?


----------



## playback (Jun 14, 2007)

Well tomorrow I get to collect my new S intake cam.

I have an AXX model engine. 

I am wondering if it's worthwhile upgrading the exhaust as well. I know the BWA motor it's not worth it but maybe my AXX cams are also dirrerent.

Arin any idea ?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

playback said:


> Well tomorrow I get to collect my new S intake cam.
> 
> I have an AXX model engine.
> 
> ...


I have an AXX engine and i think you should install both.......

P.S. Why would you ask Arin about something like that ??


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

playback said:


> Well tomorrow I get to collect my new S intake cam.
> 
> I have an AXX model engine.
> 
> ...


The intake cam will give you more lift on the fuel pump lobe but no other performance benefits. The Exhaust cam will give you more duration, which should benefit you, however we didn't see much of a gain. I couldn't feel much of a difference either, even with calibration changes. 




GolfRS said:


> P.S. Why would you ask Arin about something like that ??


Because I know more than you GolfRS.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Because I know more than you GolfRS.


No you don't...

You are a photographer.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> No you don't...
> 
> You are a photographer.


You're right. How can I argue with that?


----------



## mrbikle (Jul 2, 2005)

Lmao.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk


----------



## playback (Jun 14, 2007)

Purley as Arin is the first person who I have seen catagorically state that the exhaust cam has more duration. If he knew that then there is a chance he might have known if there was a differance between the AXX exhaust cam and the BWA as well.

What gain if any have you guys seen 5-10hp ? Slight shift in power to the right ? I think RS you once said 10hp ?

Maybe more torque later on in the revs or being held slightly later ?

Arin I know you said software has to be adjusted sligthly. What exactly would be adjusted ? More fueling or timing or ... Just wondering what I should tell my Tuner to try look at ?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

playback said:


> Purley as Arin is the first person who I have seen catagorically state that the exhaust cam has more duration. If he knew that then there is a chance he might have known if there was a differance between the AXX exhaust cam and the BWA as well.
> 
> What gain if any have you guys seen 5-10hp ? Slight shift in power to the right ? I think RS you once said 10hp ?
> 
> ...


Tune will definitely need to be adjusted.

My theory also was that the BWA cams are different than the AXX ones, eventhough they
have the same part number (well the intake cam is an "A" instead of a "B", but i don't know if that
means they are different in other ways than the pump lobe).

What i noticed after the install was a drop in low end torque and had to adjust timing to compensate.
Usually in N/A cars something like that happens when cam overlap has been changed, but as i said
i did not measure the cams myself.Audi states in the S3 release that the exhaust timing has been
improved (i'm guessing thats were Arin got that from also), and also from the fact many of the
Cupra cars have been able to hold fuel pressure better than the older cars might have to do with the
different fuel lobe, rather than the pump as was originally thought.

One thing you should be careful though is the installation.I have noticed increased wear on the S3
cams (Arin did you recheck yours btw ??), something that wasn't there with my original cams.When i talked to MTM Greece about the cam installation they told me the cams "don't fit" our cylinder head.After that i heard the cams do fit, but only in the AXX head and not in the BWA one.I cannot confirm any of the above, and after having my cylinder head though a machine shop, they never said anything about the cams not fitting so....

As for the power gains i can tell you i made 365 on the maha before cams and wg, and made 385 after
installing those.Also the car became much more linear, but as i said i did notice a drop in torque down low and had to adjust both the wg and timing to compensate (thanks SPS Plus..).


----------



## bificus99 (Aug 2, 2008)

Some good info. Subscribed.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

playback said:


> Arin I know you said software has to be adjusted sligthly. What exactly would be adjusted ? More fueling or timing or ... Just wondering what I should tell my Tuner to try look at ?


The fuel lobe profile is specifically defined in the software and the new profile needs to be specified. 

As for the exhaust cam, it can work without adjustment, however you can get a little more out of it with some slight timing adjustment. I don't think we saw much of a difference though, and I don't recall the need for any load or boost adjustments either.


----------



## playback (Jun 14, 2007)

:thumbup:Golf RS & Arin :thumbup:


----------



## playback (Jun 14, 2007)

GolfRS said:


> One thing you should be careful though is the installation.I have noticed increased wear on the S3
> cams (Arin did you recheck yours btw ??), something that wasn't there with my original cams.


When you say u had increased wear did you mean on the cam follower ?

What else could or would wear ?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

playback said:


> When you say u had increased wear did you mean on the cam follower ?
> 
> What else could or would wear ?


I had increased wear on the whole cam (besides the cam lobe that was normal)
meaning where the cam contacts the cylinder head and lifters.

At first it was thought it might be an oil starvation issue, but oil seemed to reach the cams
just fine....This is something i am keeping my eyes on, and most probably will
have to face sometime down the line....


----------



## 2DR16VT (Mar 16, 2006)

Excellent info ! How do the NA 2.0FSI cams compare in terms of lift and duration to the stock cams and S3 cams and stage 1 Cat cams ?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

2DR16VT said:


> Excellent info ! How do the NA 2.0FSI cams compare in terms of lift and duration to the stock cams and S3 cams and stage 1 Cat cams ?


 The N/A 2 liter cams don't fit the TFSI head, so that is the end of that...


----------



## 2DR16VT (Mar 16, 2006)

Have you tried fitting them ? What is the difference in the heads ?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

2DR16VT said:


> Have you tried fitting them ? What is the difference in the heads ?


 They are completely different.

Let's just leave it at that...


----------



## 2DR16VT (Mar 16, 2006)

GolfRS said:


> They are completely different.
> 
> Let's just leave it at that...


 
If only every response on this forum was this informative:screwy:


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

2DR16VT said:


> If only every response on this forum was this informative:screwy:


 Isn't "completely different" informative enough for you ??

How about "don't fit"...Is that any better ?


----------



## 2DR16VT (Mar 16, 2006)

Dude why are you so abrasive ? The point of a forum is to help others and to improve ones knowledge. Instead taking the time to respond "they don't fit leave it at that " Why not explain why they dont fit. I wanted to know how they are different from the turbo cams and why they are not interchangeable when every other component between the turbo and NA head are interchangeable even the port sizes are the same.. I've just put full Ferrea valve train into an na head and it all fits. 
This head will be used for turbo purposes. I'm fitting this to a built 058 block with a 6765 turbo and 1600 cc injectors fueling via the aftermarket intake manifold. I wanted to know what OEM cam otions i have as this will be a problem trying to get over 700whp. I have had a look at the cat cams but also hear about problems people have had with them.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

2DR16VT said:


> Dude why are you so abrasive ? The point of a forum is to help others and to improve ones knowledge. Instead taking the time to respond "they don't fit leave it at that " Why not explain why they dont fit. I wanted to know how they are different from the turbo cams and why they are not interchangeable when every other component between the turbo and NA head are interchangeable even the port sizes are the same.. I've just put full Ferrea valve train into an na head and it all fits.
> This head will be used for turbo purposes. I'm fitting this to a built 058 block with a 6765 turbo and 1600 cc injectors fueling via the aftermarket intake manifold. I wanted to know what OEM cam otions i have as this will be a problem trying to get over 700whp. I have had a look at the cat cams but also hear about problems people have had with them.


 Just because some parts "might" be interchangeable doesn't mean cams should be too.

Also what does port size or the fact valves might fit have to do with the cams ?

As previously mentioned in this forum (do a search) the 2.0 TFSI engine is NOT
the turboed version of the 2.0 FSI (N/A) engine.These are two different engines.

If what you are asking are the complete specs of the N/A cams, i haven't measured them.
You can buy a set and measure them and let us know too.

What i CAN and DID tell you is the fact they DON'T FIT.What more do you want beyond that ?
If i told you the TSI cams DON'T fit the TFSI, would you also keep asking the question ??

FFS !!! :facepalm:


----------



## 2DR16VT (Mar 16, 2006)

I asked a simple question, why they won't fit , since the head casting is almost the same , just the intake port angles vary slightly. If you had any sense of how to actually communicate and respond to a question you could have simply said the cams won't fit because : 
A. I heard it somewhere and don't actually know why. 
B. The cam sprocket is different 
C. The keyway doesn't line up 
D. The cam lobes are completely different 
Etc etc. 

Do you always make it a point of being as argumentative as possible without adding any value :banghead: 

So rather not respond to my question and let someone else provide some insight.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

2DR16VT said:


> So rather not respond to my question and let someone else provide some insight.


 Sure thing man. :thumbup:

If you find anyone let me know...


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> The N/A 2 liter cams don't fit the TFSI head, so that is the end of that...


 Are you sure about that? 

IIRC we tested a schrick NA FSI exhaust cam. 

The intake cam on the other hand should be a 2 lobe fuel lobe vs 3 lobe like the FSI, so that should not work.


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Are you sure about that?
> 
> IIRC we tested a schrick NA FSI exhaust cam.
> 
> The intake cam on the other hand should be a 2 lobe fuel lobe vs 3 lobe like the FSI, so that should not work.


 Yes i am POSITIVE..

Or maybe you want me to post a pic of MY N/A SCHRICK EXHAUST CAM for you to compare ??

I don't claim stuff i don't know Arin, contrary to you that just repeats what others in your company tell you....


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> Yes i am POSITIVE..
> 
> Or maybe you want me to post a pic of MY N/A SCHRICK EXHAUST CAM for you to compare ??
> 
> I don't claim stuff i don't know Arin, contrary to you that just repeats what others in your company tell you....


 Thank you for confirming you are completely incapable of actually holding a normal discussion without resorting to personal attacks. :thumbup:


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Thank you for confirming you are completely incapable of actually holding a normal discussion without resorting to personal attacks. :thumbup:


 Ohhh....F*** off man... :facepalm:

First you imply i'm bluffing or bull****ting , asking if "i'm sure about that..." and stating "APR tested..whatever" and then when i call you out saying i ALREADY HAVE A N/A SCHRICK CAM...you
go bitching about how i don't cut you any slack and how i am..."incapable of normal discussion.."

How exactly do you expect me to "normally discuss" with you insulting my intelligence ??

I don't even care to discuss with you....


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

GolfRS said:


> Ohhh....F*** off man... :facepalm:
> 
> First you imply i'm bluffing or bull****ting , asking if "i'm sure about that..." and stating "APR tested..whatever" and then when i call you out saying i ALREADY HAVE A N/A SCHRICK CAM...you
> go bitching about how i don't cut you any slack and how i am..."incapable of normal discussion.."
> ...


 GolfRS, when someone disagrees with you, or questions what was said, they are not necessarily calling "BS", arguing, screaming, getting upset or looking for a way to make you look like an idiot. In normal life, it's often typical for people to be mistaken or to have contradicting information. When this happens, normal people have "discussions". They discuss and share information. No one knocks the other down and pisses all over their face when they believe they are correct and the other is wrong. That's not how normal people operate. This is not a competition. This is a discussion. 

The reason I asked if you were sure the NA cams did not physically fit was because we've tested NA Schrick cams and they did fit, and did function, however there was a risk of binding the factory T FSI valve springs. Did you install factory NA cams? What issues did you run into? 2DR16VT asked the same question so if you have first hand information, please share! 

In the case of the intake cam, the NA FSI should have a dual-lobe fuel pump cam while the TFSI has a tri-lobe fuel pump cam. Because the TFSI needs the tri-lobe setup, the intake cam would not be an acceptable option, even if it fit and/or had a more aggressive/better profile.


----------

