# VR6 coilpack atlernative



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*PLEASE: atleast read the first page*
*Most of the answers are right here*
*Updated: 5/11/08*
*Read this thread, atleast the first 10 pages before starting the project.*

_Quote, originally posted by *lamune* »_Hey I just (finally) finished this mod. I wanted to share a couple of notes and points based on this really awesome thread.
First, I think this mod is fairly moderate in complexity, *but if you have no experience troubleshooting electrical problems (and by owning a VW you should be an expert in no time) and you don't know how an ignition system works, I would advise extreme caution in proceeding. You can kill your ECU and/or ICM pretty easily. *
For those who think they can bypass the ICM and run the coils from the ECU and/or use relays...etc...*for the love of God don't even attempt it. I can tell you it won't work and if you're lucky you won't blow up your ECU.*
....

I took this mod further than that, though, which I will get into later. First, I think it's wise to use a ballast resistor when doing this mod. The reason being is that the primary resistance of the MSD coil is about half that of the stock coil. This means that the MSD coil requires twice as much current to drive than stock. Now, combine this with the fact that contrary to popular belief the coils are "on" most of the time and fired by switching them "off".. you can see my point. This is probably why some folks have seen their resistors go up in smoke when switching the ignition on but not starting the engine.
Ideally you should put a .7 ohm resistor between +12 and EACH coil to precisely match the resistance component of each coil. I measured the stock coil at 1.4 ohms and the MSD at .7 ohms. Having one resistor is tricky because as I mentioned before the coils are on at the same time and that makes the circuitry a little more dynamic and complex. However, I think any ballast resistor is better than none. And please DO NOT use those Radio Shack ceramic resistors- use a REAL ballast resistor!
.....
-Mike
'98 GTI VR6 with "Mullet"-style ignition



_Quote, originally posted by *cubix* »_
The following people are running this project (this list is totally not complete)
*AJ* - Cubix - 97 VR6 N/A, stock gap, no resistor
*Walt*- vaporado- 1991 Corrado VR swap was N/A, .050" gap, no resistor
*Lenny* - itb76 - 98 GTI VR6 - NA, nearly stock engine - stock NGK plugs, stock gap, no resistor
*Tony* - xxxfattonyxxx - 98 VR6 N/A, .045" gap, no resistor
*Ryan* - Ryan Sickles - 2000 AFP VR6, N/A, Nearly Stock, .035'' gap, no resistor


*
Quote, originally posted by Ryan Sickles »Think now would be a good time to say this, but there's more than enough amperage in these coils to kill you, so 
be extremely cautious! I've watched my brother get shocked at his 
hand and it arc'd out through his knee & past the bumper to the 
frame.








*
Here is a compilation of the works of dozens of VR6 owners who got tired of replacing their shotty 10kv OEM coil packs with the same part.

*THREAD RULES*
ONLY post relative information, questions, concerns and other information pertanant to the conversation
The people doing this project are regular people and not professional developers, so PLEASE, no flaming, no putting down of the project and no negative comments.
There is nothing worse then putting all this work into creating a viable ign. system and getting hit with a bunch of people who say it doesn't make a difference.
If you don't agree with this project, don't do it.

DO NOT POST ANY INFORMATION ABOUT THE SALE of ANY parts
-If you are looking for information on parts, please, utilize the PM
*Using the GM Coil*
Wiring Information Page 19 at the bottem
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...26240
*MSD Alternative* 
My personal choice for the replacement was using 3 MSD coils to replace the oem coil pack (NOT the icm)
Part numbers are
*For the full custom look*
*MSD 8224* Coil, dual post HEI used on GM models
*MSD 3311* HEI crimp ends
*MSD 31199* Custom 8 cyl wire set, these have straight plug boots
*For the new, much easier project*
*3xMSD 8224* Coil, dual post HEI used on GM models
_The wires and mount are availible from James @ Fourseasontuning.com!
The MSD coil interface module #8870.
http://www.msdignition.com/ins...1.htm

* You do not NEED*_* to use a resistor* - If you decide to, you need a 1ohm *ballast* resistor from an auto parts store, such as summitracing, jegs, etc.
Does anyone have my ICM readings on hand? My only copy was posted on the original thread
.
.
Found this in my email.

_Quote, originally posted by *M511Y VR6* »_

When I first wired up my jegs coils I quickly ran in to a problem. It turns out I fried my ICM and I was only running on 4 of 6 cylinders. I replaced the ICM and since then it has been all systems go. I think the problem may have come from one of my wires grounding out. I made my second coil pack mount out of plactic so it is now almost impossible for a nother grounding problem to come up. Even though it is made of plastic, the mount is still very sturdy. I wonder if this problem has happened to any one else on here.
Oh, One more thing. When I got it all fixed and running my enging would bog down as if I had a governer set at 30 miles an hour. I got a t-body CEL and thought I might need a nw t-body. Turnes out it just needed to be reset and I did this by unpluging the negative terminal for 30 minutes, turning the key as if I was starting the car, then resting the key in the on position. At that point I reconected the battery and I heard a pop coming from the T-body. Then it started recalibrating and the car has been running great ever since. I just wanted to put this info up if anyone else ran in to this problem.
Best of luck.




_Quote, originally posted by *onebdgti* »_Was just wondering if it matters wich side of the coil you put the psitive or negative?
Also what did you all find out what was causing the setup to fry coils?
So far all of the info has been grateful.


The coils are NOT side dependant, however, just to keep things together you can use + on the left and - on the right, we've also been discussing the possibility of stringing the positive sides together, so 15 to coil 1 to coil 2 to coil 3, just to keep it close to oem construction, but I have no results on that.
My personal ICM failures were due to ICM failure, once the ICM was replaced, I was good to go!
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 








*DIY!!!!!*
So here comes a photo DIY of assembling and installing the MSD coils in place of the OE coilpack.
What better way to start with then the materials, Wires/bracket from fourseasontuning.com, coils from summitracing.com. *With the wires from fourseasontuning, you no longer need to buy a universal wire set and measure/cut/crimp on your own connectors.*








As you can see, I have 3 MSD 8224 coils.

Quick continuity check on the bracket, making sure there won’t be a grounding issue.









In spirit of other DIYers, here is my home brew bracket that was originally used in the project.








Here’s my lovely engine, first step is to remove the OE wires








Sometimes, the coil end of the wires gets stuck to the coil pack. An easy way that I’ve found to remove them w/o risk of damage is to use a wrench to drive it out from the back, ensuring nothing sticks








Next, pull the wires off of the plug, using either the plastic puller, or a metal one, DO NOT PULL THE WIRE ITSELF!!!








Here is a pic with the wires removed
As you can see, this was done on the rare 80 degree day, I didn’t even bother putting shoes on… next day there’s 4 inchs of ice…








Remove the 4 6mm allen key bolts from the corners of the coil pack to remove it








So here we have the coil pack and bolts








As you can see, I have cut down some of the bolts ¾” to compensate for the eventual separation of the coil from the ICM








Pry off the plastic nut guard by prying up on the lower part, then sliding the shield up and off








And here is what you have. Remove each of the 4 nuts/washers








Next, flip the coil pack up-side-down, and remove the bottom plate via 2 Phillips screws








This allows the ICM to be removed. Note, the ICM is ONE PIECE with the bottom plate, do not try to separate it, you will destroy it.








Now remove the 6 star screws hold the coil pack to the metal spacer








And you should have the coil pack separated into 3 main components








Screw the ICM/plate back on to the metal spacer via 2 Phillips screws








Another view of the ICM w/spacer, each post is labeled on the bottom of the post with a number indicating 15 for +12v (goes to each coil), 2/5, ¾. 1/6 








Here is a after shot of the ICM side of my harness. The harness is a 6 pin connector, the top row of wires I’ve spliced together into 1 single wire, alternatively you can just as easily solder 3 wires on to the 15 post. The harness is 12g wire. I have installed the 1 ohm resistor using spade connectors for easy replacement/bypass. The series goes, Wire/Male Spade/Female spade/Resistor/Male spade/female spade/wire. This way, if it blew for some reason on the road, I could just as easily pull it, and bypass the connection.
















And here is a shot of the resistor








On the coil end, there are two main ways you can attach the wires. One is a small spade connector, if you get the right size, when you push it in enough, it’ll almost click itself into place. Another method is to take a small dremel bit, and widen the plastic around the connection enough to put the wire into it and solder it in place. I ave both because originally I had all three soldered, but the number of times I’ve had to replace the 1/6 coil because of an unknowingly fault ICM I switched to a spade connection. After attaching the wires, I would recommend putting some hot glue or other non conductive adheasive on it.
As you can see, green yellow and brown I’ve put on what would be the left side of the coil (they are up side down) as the +12v, it doesn’t matter which side you are using, I just wanted to keep it in order and the same for all 3.








Since my old bracket didn’t have spaces to run the wire, and my new one does, I just cut the leads and ran the wires properly. In turn I will use spade connectors to rewire them.








Here they are attached to the bracket








And some pictures of the wiring being attached
























Final coil wiring result with spade connectors.








Next I labeled the coils with a small marker, 1/6, ¾, 2/5. In reality, it doesn’t matter which coils you put where, it all depends on the wiring on the ICM, but to allow the spark plug wires to be run properly, and keep things simple for myself, I mimicked the style of the coil pack. If you look on the top of a coil pack, you’ll notice the posts are labeled with the cylinder number.
I wired the green (+) wire to post 15 on the ICM, and then ran the colored (-) wires to the corresponding posts. I stripped a fair amount of wire and twisted the wires through the slots in the post, then dropped some solder on it, followed by some electrical tape.








Now it’s time to mount it. For my MKIII, I had to pull the brake booster hose, and then re run it under the bracket after the coils were screwed in. It’s a little awkward because of the weight and holding the icm/spacer at the same time, but if you get the top screw in that is closest to you, the rest are simple.








When putting the wires in, adding some dielectric grease to the insides helps prevent them from getting stuck, I put it on both sides of the wire.








Here is the first shot of the set up. *note, I did not finish running the spark plug wires, I just wanted to make sure to get it working before I went back for the details.








I like to start by clearing the ecu. I do this because the MSD coils will be able to burn the F/A mixture better, so I want the ecu to learn the new stats from the beginning. First disconnect the negative, and then the positive side of the battery








Next, make a contact between both battery cables for at least 30 seconds. This drains the remaining power and completely discharges the system.
















And that’s it! Put on the positive terminal, then the negative, and turn the key to the ‘ON’ position (but not started) for a few minutes. *You can avoid the alarm going off if you ensure the hood sensor by the coolant bottle is unplugged.
Once the throttle body finishes clicking around, turn the car off, then start it and let it run for a few minutes on its own while it recompiles the fuel map. After that, start driving!








Check out what happens when you have a bad ICM








Introducing, the first version of the Coil Pack Alternative Troubleshooting guide.
This might now solve your problem completely, but it should get you on the right path.








_Modified by Cubix at 9:44 PM 2-2-2007_

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_Modified by Cubix at 6:36 PM 3-26-2007_

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_Modified by Cubix at 9:04 AM 1-5-2008_

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_Modified by Cubix at 10:11 AM 2-25-2008_

_Modified by Cubix at 3:42 PM 3-12-2008_

_Modified by Cubix at 10:32 AM 3-13-2008_

_Modified by Cubix at 12:23 AM 3-14-2008_

_Modified by Cubix at 1:05 PM 3-15-2008_

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_Modified by Cubix at 3:46 PM 6-5-2008_

_Modified by Cubix at 10:01 PM 8-5-2008_

_Modified by Cubix at 2:41 PM 10-7-2008_

_Modified by Cubix at 2:42 PM 10-7-2008_ 


_Modified by Cubix at 2:39 PM 6-25-2009_


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## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

As Cubix said, *DO NOT MENTION SALES OF BRACKETS.* This is what got the last post locked up. Besides, the bracket is a minor detail compared to the wiring. 
I appreciate the efforts that silentdub has put into this project and I also appreciate jhayesvw for giving us the reason why the last one was locked up. To ensure that this thread doesn't get locked up, stick to the topic of coilpack layouts.
Here's a few pics








































































To summarize what silentdub has been doing, he has started off with the Accel coils and appeared to have burned up 2 of them. It isn't clear is the coils were bad or is a lack of resistor has been the culprit. He has since replaced the Accels with MSD boxes with a resistor. 
So far he's running strong.


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## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (VertigoGTI)*

Good point, 
I burned up THREE MSD coils, they were all on the 1/6 side of the coil.
In my case, I found the problem to be a bad IGN. coil.
This makes it extremely difficult to preceed with this project because there is no way to just buy an ign. coil new, nor is there yet a way to test your icm.
I'm hoping to change the later


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## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

I just wanted to stop in and say that i am glad that this thread has been restarted.
Keep this thread clean and nobody will have any problems with this thread.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (jhayesvw)*

Thanks for restarting it Cubix http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (jamesn67)*

Just trying to do my part








*Benefits* 
Lets jump right into some of the positive results of doing such a project.
Yes, I will admit, we've had a decent number of blow coils
But also, we've had MANY people who have succeeded at this project with no problems (we used to have a list, so if you have done is, PM me and I will add your name)
Some of the results we've seen (repeatedly) is
*Increased Gas mileage
Better throttle response
Faster revving/falling revs engine* 
What I would like to get is some Dyno results (and I will put forth the money to dyno twice solely for this project because I think it does deserve the attention)
Also, Emissions! We never once thought about the possibility of better emissions due to the more complete burning of fuel!

*A word on spark plugs* 
We've all seen the $12 NGK plugs recommended for use in our VR6 engines. Hell, even I am running them! But why? Well, the coils we have are running at around 10,000v. Think thats alot? Well, no, it isn't, many, if not ALL, aftermarket ign systems bump the voltage way above 10,000. The MSD runs at 40,000v!
This increase in power gives you 'play' with the plugs. For one, the higher voltage allows the spark to jump wider gaps, wider gaps allow more of the a/f mixture to run between the plug/electrode, meaning, a better burning of the mixture in the cyl.,
So what should you do?
Well, we've had some success with some people widening their gaps, at a rate of 0.005" at a time. The end result? A 0.060" gap can be obtained before the engine begins to fail at firing. Of course, this is something you should play with yourself, and until we get more feedback from those running such a wide gap.
Until then, you should be able to run 0.050" to 0.055" without a problem, the VR6 is a strong engine with alot of potential, it just has to be found and unlocked.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

I am going to try and continue to update the original post with information so that you won't have to skim through the entire discussion to find the information you need.


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## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

I'm glad that this text got opened up again. Cause I'm going to start on my setup tomorrow. I will be putting on MSD coils and wires. Also with this setup what type of plugs are you guys running?


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## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (onebdgti)*

I'm running the $12 NGK BKR5EKUP.
It's over kill, I bought them 2 years ago, blah.
Slientdub have been running the cheapy plugs with success, so I'm going to go on a limb saying that any plug in the right heat range would suffice.


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## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

I hate to ask, but what are the benefits of running a wider gap on the plugs? I'm still a few months away from doing the conversion as I have some coolant issues to resolve first, but I really would like to get some of the details before I jump into it.


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## crzygreek (Jul 8, 2005)

food for thought: burning up more of the mixture would lead to a leaner condition wouldnt it? so in essence the cars are getting better fuel mileage because they are running leaner across the rev-band?
Im all for this and will try it on my vr but thinking about it, nobody has run a wideband to see the difference in air/fuel ratio before and after.. maybe this would be a good idea?
let me know what you guys think
Theo


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## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (crzygreek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crzygreek* »_food for thought: burning up more of the mixture would lead to a leaner condition wouldnt it? so in essence the cars are getting better fuel mileage because they are running leaner across the rev-band?
Im all for this and will try it on my vr but thinking about it, nobody has run a wideband to see the difference in air/fuel ratio before and after.. maybe this would be a good idea?
let me know what you guys think
Theo

Remember we have O2 sensors that are monitoring the burn ratio so your car will adapt to the prescribed ratio in the ecu. Unless you get to a situation where you are fuel starved you won't run overly lean.


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## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: (jamesn67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesn67* »_
Remember we have O2 sensors that are monitoring the burn ratio so your car will adapt to the prescribed ratio in the ecu. Unless you get to a situation where you are fuel starved you won't run overly lean.

Yup, and we also have the technology thanks to Vag-Com to track our Lambda. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







Word about Fuel Trims
EDIT: Does anyone have a better wiring diagram with the dual post coils other than this one...?


_Modified by Ryan Sickles at 6:05 AM 2-3-2007_


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## crzygreek (Jul 8, 2005)

*Re: (Ryan Sickles)*

can us obd1 guys do the same? we only have one o2 sensor so whats the deal?


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## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: (crzygreek)*

was just wondering if anybody has taken there ignition module off of the aluminum bracket that its mounted on. Cause I did and I think that I just screwed up. Any help in this department would be great.


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## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (onebdgti)*

Ok, so to answer some questions.
The higer gap and better burning of fuel will NOT run the engine lean. Think about it like this, The air is drawn in through the throttle body, and the fuel added through the injectors, both before they enter the cyl. Once the valve is closed, it's done, it is compressed and detonated.
Simply adding a better spark to the mixture in no way changes the A/F mixture entering the cyl. 

Second.
Removing the black ICM from the metal bracket will destroy the coil.
None of us have found a way to properly do it.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by Cubix at 3:19 PM 2-3-2007_


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## crzygreek (Jul 8, 2005)

yes cubix but cause a bigger (note hotter) explosion by opening up the gap does cause leanage.. in the end the leaner you run the hotter the explosion?


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## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: (crzygreek)*

Was just wondering if it matters wich side of the coil you put the psitive or negative?
Also what did you all find out what was causing the setup to fry coils?
So far all of the info has been grateful.


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## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (crzygreek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crzygreek* »_yes cubix but cause a bigger (note hotter) explosion by opening up the gap does cause leanage.. in the end the leaner you run the hotter the explosion?

I personally don't see how a better burning of the mixture will lean the engine. 
Now i'm not saying that this is true, all I'm saying is that I don't see how it would, and everything I think I know about how the engine works says otherwise.
But by far, I don't know everything, so if we can get some science behind it, then that would be great.
The way I see it, you still have the same amount of Oxygen and fuel entering the cyl, same compression just a better spark, so I don't know...


_Modified by Cubix at 12:22 AM 2-4-2007_


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## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (onebdgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *onebdgti* »_Was just wondering if it matters wich side of the coil you put the psitive or negative?
Also what did you all find out what was causing the setup to fry coils?
So far all of the info has been grateful.


The coils are NOT side dependant, however, just to keep things together you can use + on the left and - on the right, we've also been discussing the possibility of stringing the positive sides together, so 15 to coil 1 to coil 2 to coil 3, just to keep it close to oem construction, but I have no results on that.

My specific coil failures was due to a faulty ICM, same with a few others
If you blow one before you even drive it, i'm going to say replace the ICM
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Ryan Sickles)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Ryan Sickles* »_
EDIT: Does anyone have a better wiring diagram with the dual post coils other than this one...?

_Modified by Ryan Sickles at 6:05 AM 2-3-2007_


YES!
It's on my site









edit:
fixed image link,
sorry i have 5 long islands after a 12 hour day @ work










_Modified by Cubix at 12:15 AM 2-4-2007_


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## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Well I just ordered a new ICM because I screwed up and decided to take it off of the aluminum bracket. 
So I learned a very expensive and valuable lesson don't take it apart.
I'm just glad to see this text start up again.


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## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (onebdgti)*

Take some photos of it








Where did you buy just the ICM??????????



_Modified by Cubix at 12:31 AM 2-4-2007_


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## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Couldn'y just find a ICM had to order the whole thing. 
It really sucks that its not sold seperatly.
And when I get it all done I'll post up some pics cause of right now the part won't be here till Tuesday. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_YES!
It's on my site 

Sweetness dude... Pictures coming tonight. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Back to the lean/rich debate: First off, increasing combustion is going to cause a much cleaner burn and when exhaust gases flow past the o2 sensors (for us MKIV guys), the Lambda sensor is going to notice a leaness in the gases because of the fuller burn. Now if our cars didn't have ECUs, then obviously we'd have a leaner running engine...but since we do, the ECU is going to adjust the air/fuel mixture until it likes the values it's recieving from the the sensors.
If it were true that this would cause the car to run lean, then just going from one style of plugs to another is going to cause CEL's...but it doesn't because the ecu can learn and adapt.


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## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

I'm making my own 5-prong connector that plugs into the harness.
Question: Where do I connect the ground, prong #1 (brown wire)? Should I just ground it to the metal chassis that coils bolt to? I'm looking to get it all wired up tonight, so help appreciated. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Ryan Sickles)*

erm, I don't think I'm sure what you are talking about
The 5 pin harness has to goto the ICM, then the ICM to the coils.
Please post pictures to paint a clearer picture


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## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: (Ryan Sickles)*

What it sounds like Ryan is trying to do is bypass the ICM. 
I thought about doing that but I didn't want to fry my new coils.
because if you look a GM ignition module it gets its reference from the 
cam sensor and the crank sensor.
Our cars don't do that they get there signal from the ECU.
So its questionable for what the ICM really does?


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## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (onebdgti)*

You cannot bypass the ICM unless you have something else like a dis-4. 
The icm actually boosts the input signal coming from the ECU
to a value high enough to trigger the coils. The ICM can also be
refered to as the Power Output Stage.


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## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

*You can not just bypass the icm!*
Before I get yelled out for that, yes you can if you set up a stand alone system I believe.
The ICM translates the ecu signal and provides the power/grounding to the coils.
Let me try to explain how the ICM works, from what I've learned from my study of it.
There is a 12v+ that provides the power constantly to icm and coils. And there is a ground.
The ECU sends a 5v signal to the icm on one of the other three pins. This opens a switchs that contacts the ground to the coil, which gounds to the grounding wire.
Because this is how it works, there is NO way to simply bypass the icm because it just doesn't work that way.
You may be able to replace the ICM with 3 relays that open the negative side when 5v is applied to the switch. But that would take further research


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## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

Are we talking the ECU sends a 5v positive signal or negative signal to open the 12v ground connection? I had assumed three ignition relay wires were sending a 12v ground, but I guess I'm wrong.
It seems like VW made it this way to prevent people from doing this...
Guess I'll have to add the ICM vs. $50 for relays.

















_Modified by Ryan Sickles at 5:30 PM 2-5-2007_


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## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

Currently what I've got:








There's a 22-gauge polycarbonate sheet between the aluminum bracket & coils. (Seen pictured with some old coils for mock-up). I'm going to use some new GP Sorensen coils I've got laying around when I get it all wired up, then if I like how it runs, I'll step it up to MSD's.
Adding the ICM won't be an issue. 
How much should I try to isolate the unit from grounding itself out when I start building the bracket?


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## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Ryan Sickles)*

the ecu sends a 5v + signal which opens the negative side.
think of a light switch where the power is constant and the negative is controlled by the switch.
That switch needs to be closed for the negative to meet and the loop to be made, YOU are the 5v+ signal to open that switch.
Kinda funky


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## blu_mk2 (May 4, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Hi, 
Does anyone have a diagram with the resistor installed, or can show/tell me where exactly the resistor should be installed, AND since i've never bought a resistor before







which one do i need exactly?
Thanks!!


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

I noticed that the 98-99 and 00-05 Passat V6 seems to use a coilpack that has 3 separate 2-prong coils on it. Has anyone tried adapting one of those?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (blu_mk2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *blu_mk2* »_Hi, 
Does anyone have a diagram with the resistor installed, or can show/tell me where exactly the resistor should be installed, AND since i've never bought a resistor before







which one do i need exactly?
Thanks!!

Sorry for the delay, simply attach the resistor (1ohm from radioshack) to the 15 post on the ICM, and then wire from there


_Quote, originally posted by *o2bad455* »_I noticed that the 98-99 and 00-05 Passat V6 seems to use a coilpack that has 3 separate 2-prong coils on it. Has anyone tried adapting one of those? 


Isn't that the normal coilpack? It's three sets of 2 post coils in one pack. Post some pics



_Modified by Cubix at 7:36 PM 2-9-2007_


----------



## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

As I am struggling with a similar issue with the wife's VR, I picked up some MSD coils and I am working on the install this weekend.
Few questions, are you guys hard wiring the power/grounds off the ICM to the coils? Meaning, soldering to the ICM posts shown in the diagram on the first page? If not, how are you wiring this?
Also on the resistor, what is the need? Just trying to understand. 1ohm seems pretty small...???
Anything else I should know going in? I worked up a nice alum mount but it sounds like I should be isolating the coils from the bracket, yes?
Much thanks for the help in advance...
Eric


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Fast929)*

Well,
The resistor is just to try and prevent the coils from bruning up in the event of a failure.
And YES, you have to isolate the coils from the bracket, to help with this, I found some MSD coil mounts that they produce, pre wired you just snap in and bolt down, takes all the fuss away.
I have 2 coils hardwired, and one conected with spade connectors (because I had to keep replacing it due to a bad ICM)
good luck and let us know how it goes


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_Isn't that the normal coilpack? It's three sets of 2 post coils in one pack. Post some pics


Nope, it looks different than the VR6 pack. Here's a pic of the Passat V6 00-05 coilpack. I can't find a pic of the 98-99 version, but I think it's just the connector shape that's different (if anything). 
http://yibon.en.alibaba.com/of....html


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (o2bad455)*

Ohhhh!
Thats the same pack they use on the v6 audis, and from what I here, is alot stronger and lasts longer then our oem coil packs, infact, some people mod that pack onto the earlier vr6s.
however, to answer your question, I'm going to say yes, the MSD packs would be able to replace those coils, just pull of the icm and wire it up correctly and you should be golden.


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Just find out if these coils include the "icm"/power output stage in them or if it is external. I think these have the power output stage
built in. If they do you would just need a different MSD coil than the
ones us VR6 folks are using. MSD does make coils that include this.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (jamesn67)*

Which coils include this?
I wonder if they are 3 wire (+,- and signal)
because then...
WE CAN ELIMINATE THE ICM!!!!
yay


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

MSD sells a bunch of single post coils that have it integrated.
Not sure if the VW dual coils shown above are integrated or not.
I just can't see the icm in that pic so I figured I'd mention it.
If those are the same as the Audi V6 ones another place to look
is 034motorsports.com as they offer performance Audi coil options.


----------



## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (jamesn67)*

Was just wondring if anybody has tried MSD #8870.
Just wondering what the 4 wires comming off of the interface are for.
Also I just finished building my bracket lasy weekend and didn't put a capacitor
on # 15 terminal, was just wondering if it was really necessary.
Cause Cubix has stated that he installed it so that it would not fry the coils 
if the ICM fails. Just wondering if this actually works.
By the way even though the coils and bracket are done its been too damn cold to 
install them yeat.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (onebdgti)*

No, no one has used 8870 yet (that I know about), and we definitely want to hear about how it goes. I found it rather recently, last month, and mentioned it in the original post. Only two of the 4 wires are necessary and the instructions should be explained in the manual.
I don't know if the resistor actually does anything, but i guess it's an attempt to prevent what happend to me, I blew 4 msd coils before diagnosing a bad icm. oi


----------



## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Well I just e-mailed MSD about #8870 to find out exactly what the 4 wires are 
used for. Cause I know that one is positive, negative, and one is for reference
but just wondering what the fourth wire is for. Cause this could be our cure for
the ICM. When I hear something back from MSD I will let you all know.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (onebdgti)*

I don't believe that they act as a second stage power output, nor do they that the relay system included, I think it's for the GM cars that have 4 wire coils
but lets wait for the response anyways.
Theres no simple way to cut out the icm


----------



## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

http://i157.photobucket.com/al...0.jpg
hopefully this will help so far from what I see it won't replace the icm.


----------



## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (onebdgti)*


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (silentdub)*

Whoa
I like it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (silentdub)*

Glad you like it Silentdub! Did you have to pay for it or were you able to secure a deal?


----------



## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (jamesn67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesn67* »_Glad you like it Silentdub! Did you have to pay for it or were you able to secure a deal?

Let's not go there, I don't want them to lock Cubix's thread.
I didn't steal them in case anyone is wondering.


----------



## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (onebdgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *onebdgti* »_









I don't believe that this unit takes the place of the module, if it does, then it would be for a GM car right?
I would check with MSD before connecting it to the ECU.


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Hope you dont mind me posting( mods should not lock this as Im a paying advertiser).
I can offer a high quality spark plug wire set for the application in 8mm. Using OE german made Bremi metal ends and GM type boots for the pin type coils mentioned in this thread. The leads can be made longer if needed just let me know the additional length desired if any. Colors available Red, Blue, Yellow and Black.
I prefer the MK3 type end's even on the MK4 as well. The wires are the same length for both, Just no outer plastic puller's. No external plastic except the upper boot. Downside is purchasing a Tool, But these are the better ends of the two styles.
Here is a kit for $120 shipped with the tool.








8MM MK3 MK4 Ignition Wire Set W/GM Ends & Tool $120 shipped 








8MM MK3 MK4 Ignition WireSet W/GM Ends $105 shipped 









8MM MK4 Ignition WireSet W/GM Ends $105 shipped 








MSD Bracket $80 shipped 








$17.99 shipped when purchased w/ wire set 

Spark plug boot removal tool works on MK3 and MK4 style ends. A MK3 wire set will work on a MK4. The only difference is the pull type connectors would not be used ( the leads are the same length).
Visa Mastercard Discover and American Express can be accepted via Paypal
without registration.California residents will be charged 7.75 sales tax.
www.FourSeasonTuning.com
The current site only has a fraction of the parts listed that we carry.Please contact us if the items you seek are not on the site. Competitive pricing, Fast shipping, If you see a lower price let us know, chances are we can work with you.
Questions at 714-997-5842
Email is better than IM
sales(AT)fourseasontuning.com*
Thanks for looking.
James
AKA wld101turkey
Prices edited as supplier is charging a $5.00 drop ship fee. These are still $10.00 less than the 8MM with the standard coil end.




_Modified by FourSeasonTuning.com at 6:09 PM 8-7-2008_


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (FourSeasonTuning.com)*

Now that should def. make this an easier option for some folks for
sure http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Cubix, you running the MSD's again or still stock?
Any failures yet with the resistor?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (jamesn67)*

*Now that is cool!!!* 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Thank you VERY MUCH!!! I think I'll pick up a set in the spring.
Now their is a company thinking about it's customer base!
I'm still running OEM, it is WAY WAY WAY to cold to do work on my car, and I don't have a garage to do the work in, so all projects have been put on hold. So my 500 mile test turned into well over 2000, with and avg of 21.5mpg
But amazingly, yesterday was 50 out, instead of the late 20s and my MPG went up ~4mpg, just shows how rich my engine runs when it's completely freezing outside. I was getting worried when I was getting barely 200 per tank.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

I Pm'd fourseasons asking all the important questions

_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_Have these ends been tested on fitting the accel/msd packs already? Looking at the photos, are those just the stock wires shown, not with the HEI ends? And also, is it possible to get them custom length, or has it been successfully wired on a set up with MSD packs mounted in the (now seems common) stock position of the coil pack, because this is a small difference in positions of the terminals, which may cause the wires not to reach appropriately.

I will let you know the answers I recieve, I would want this information clarified before any fitmint issues arise.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
And I'm SO buying a set


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Please do not mention ANY brackets in this thread. 
unless you post up one you made yourself and ARE NOT SELLING ANY.
thanks


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (jhayesvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jhayesvw* »_Please do not mention ANY brackets in this thread. 
unless you post up one you made yourself and ARE NOT SELLING ANY.
thanks









No one has I believe. Only fourseasons has mentioned plug wires and they are advertisers so it should be ok...but who knows.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (jamesn67)*

Word on Wires:
With the weather looking better, I'm going to throw my MSD packs in tomorrow (granted I find the time ofcourse)
here is my conversation with fourseason


_Quote »_
FourSeasonTuning.com (1:10 PM 2-21-2007): those are reg ends shown. I have supplied custom length coil wires for 16v guys using gm or ford type coils mounted in a different area. what length did you want?
FourSeasonTuning.com (1:12 PM 2-21-2007): these are made to order.
Cubix (1:20 PM 2-21-2007): Well, I'm keeping my coils in the standard coil position, so as long as it fits that, it'll be good. Hopefully if it isn't too cold, I'll do some measurements. What is the standard lengths you're shipping these at?
FourSeasonTuning.com (1:32 PM 2-21-2007): I can measure a standard set for you. I have not sold any of these yet for this app but i know they will work as long as we get the length right when using a standard bracket.
FourSeasonTuning.com (1:35 PM 2-21-2007): If someone was mocking this up using a standard wire they could tell us how much more length is needed ( if needed?). I would have done this mod if needed but my slc has a dist.
Cubix (11:41 PM 2-22-2007): I will measure my MSD wires tomorrow and purchase a set @ those lengths, then we can 'fine tune' it look stock

As most of you know, I've taken this project to heart, buying 7 (







) MSD coils and burning out 3 because of that damn icm, so yea, I'm crazy


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Cubix you could also try IM'ing wallra as I believe he used stock wires with gm ends and a similar style bracket. His lengths might be good
enough.


----------



## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (FourSeasonTuning.com)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FourSeasonTuning.com* »_Hope you dont mind me posting( mods should not lock this as Im a paying advertiser).
I can offer a high quality spark plug wire set for the application in 8mm. Using OE german made Bremi metal ends and GM type boots for the pin type coils mentioned in this thread. The leads can be made longer if needed just let me know the additional length desired if any. Colors available Red, Blue, Yellow and Black.









8MM MK3 Ignition WireSet W/GM Ends $100 shipped 









8MM MK4 Ignition WireSet W/GM Ends $100 shipped 









$17.99 shipped when purchased w/ wire set 

Spark plug boot removal tool works on MK3 and MK4 style ends. A MK3 wire set will work on a MK4. The only difference is the pull type connectors would not be used ( the leads are the same length).
Visa Mastercard Discover and American Express can be accepted via Paypal
without registration.California residents will be charged 7.75 sales tax.
http://www.FourSeasonTuning.com
The current site only has a fraction of the parts listed that we carry.Please contact us if the items you seek are not on the site. Competitive pricing, Fast shipping, If you see a lower price let us know, chances are we can work with you.
Questions at 714-997-5842
Email is better than IM
sales(AT)fourseasontuning.com*
Thanks for looking.
James
AKA wld101turkey



RAAAAAAAMONE! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
There are a lot of people that don't/can't crimp the universal wire sets. I have a post going on vwfixx.com, I will let those guys know that you have these wire sets.
That is of course if you don't mind some extra business


----------



## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (silentdub)*

Thinking of it now, all we need is a wire harness and this could be a 100% plug n play upgrade.
I told paul that I would work on a harness, but looking at what needs to be done, it is easy, but I don't think that I can make it professional enough to make it easy to install.
The coils can use a simple spade connector, but there is nothing to keep it from falling out of the coil, I would need some type of spade connector that has a locking tab similar to a phone cord or network cable.
If anyone has any ideas, I am all ears. Maybe I can fab one up and then give it to some company to make.
I don't even know who does that type of fab work.
Any ideas?


----------



## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (jamesn67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesn67* »_Now that should def. make this an easier option for some folks for
sure http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Cubix, you running the MSD's again or still stock?
Any failures yet with the resistor?


I have no failures with the resistor, I am running a 1.3 ohm resistor now, and after I take some measurements, I may go lower.


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (silentdub)*

the MSD resistor I have is 0.8 ohm if I recall correctly.
As for the wire connections. Certainly a spade with a nut and bolt
would work but I'd be worried about it coming loose. 
Let me IM a2b4guy as he does a lot of electircal work mayb he
can point us to some other type of connector that would make this
more plug and play.


----------



## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (jamesn67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesn67* »_the MSD resistor I have is 0.8 ohm if I recall correctly.
As for the wire connections. Certainly a spade with a nut and bolt
would work but I'd be worried about it coming loose. 
Let me IM a2b4guy as he does a lot of electircal work mayb he
can point us to some other type of connector that would make this
more plug and play.

That is just one side of the connector, we still need to connect it to the coil without having it fall out when you hit a bump.
I soldered mine up and that works great, but not everyone can/will do that.
The bracket if mounted as most are, only gives a little room to connect it to the ICM, I would hate to have someone screw that up.


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (silentdub)*

Best idea for connecting on the coil side would be to fab something
similar to the MSD adapter that could be fastened in place.
Yes, unfortunately not a lot of room of the icm tangs unless you
install it upside down like that one person did.


----------



## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (jamesn67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesn67* »_Best idea for connecting on the coil side would be to fab something
similar to the MSD adapter that could be fastened in place.
Yes, unfortunately not a lot of room of the icm tangs unless you
install it upside down like that one person did.


Ok, That could be easy. Soldering some terminals to a bread board and some connectors, then it can be sandwhiched between the bracket and coils.
At that point, mount the ICM upside down and use a little bolt with a nylon threaded nut to keep it from falling off. Sime heat schrink tube and they are golden.
Unless there is a connector style that will plug in to the ICM. I have to look at it now.


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (silentdub)*

now you guys are talking.
if there was an adapter harness, this setup could be as easy to install as the factory stuff.
then it would be good for the masses.


----------



## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (jhayesvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jhayesvw* »_now you guys are talking.
if there was an adapter harness, this setup could be as easy to install as the factory stuff.
then it would be good for the masses.

That is what I am saying. It is people like us that come up with the idea, and then people like BRAND X and fourseason to take notice and fab stuff up to market a product to the demand.

When I did this install, and fabricated the bracket and harness, I was expecting a few die hard people to ask me for stuff, but it got to a point that I simply couldn't make enough brackets to keep up with demand.
Making stuff by hand is great, but when you need to make up 50 of the same item in a week, that is where the CNC comes in. The CNC can crank brackets out all day.
I was thinging of making the harness, but I know I won't be able to make enough of them, so I will try to prototype it and let someone else make them.
The best thing about this type of mod is quite simple, it is a change that you can feel. It can also save a few bucks too.
There is no need to look at dyno results, and compare to other people and get slanged by advertising, with this mod, you hook it up get in the car and clearly notice the difference over stock.

_Modified by silentdub at 6:07 PM 2-23-2007_


_Modified by jhayesvw at 6:11 PM 2-23-2007_


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (silentdub)*

this is sounding better and better http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## crrdslcvr6 (May 3, 2006)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Great job guys. I love the progress of this topic.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (crrdslcvr6)*

Sorry for the delay in measuring my wires, personal life and weather causing issues with my project. 








I'll take the measurements in an hour or two


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

The measurements are in!
I could use some more from those running the set up.
MSD cutom wires:
Boot height: 3.75"
HEI end: 2.25" to bend
Cyl 1: 34.75"
Cyl 2: 34"
Cyl 3: 38.25"
Cyl 4: 28.25"
Cyl 5: 34.5"
Cyl 6: 28.25"
Now these are my custom cut set, I didn't run them perfect, so I want some more measurements


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

I will measure the oe wire lengths and post the details.
Brackets just Added.








MSD Bracket $80 shipped 


_Modified by FourSeasonTuning.com at 10:42 AM 2-28-2007_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (FourSeasonTuning.com)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Tight


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (FourSeasonTuning.com)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FourSeasonTuning.com* »_I will measure the oe wire lengths and post the details.
Brackets just Added.
MSD Bracket $80 shipped 

Thanks Fourseasons!!! Now we can talk about the dang bracket!
I personally think this one is the best of course


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (jamesn67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesn67* »_
Thanks Fourseasons!!! Now we can talk about the dang bracket!
I personally think this one is the best of course









cool deal.
please keep any bracket talk pertaining only to custom made brackets that are NOT for sale or the one for sale @ Four Seasons only.
Thanks. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## abt cup (Aug 1, 2000)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (FourSeasonTuning.com)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FourSeasonTuning.com* »_I will measure the oe wire lengths and post the details.
Brackets just Added.
MSD Bracket $80 shipped 

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## piran21 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (abt cup)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (piran21)*

Has anyone else measured their wires yet?
Fourseason, do you have those mesaurements too?


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Will have the stock specs up today.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (FourSeasonTuning.com)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_The measurements are in!
I could use some more from those running the set up.
MSD cutom wires:
Boot height: 3.75"
HEI end: 2.25" to bend
Cyl 1: 34.75"
Cyl 2: 34"
Cyl 3: 38.25"
Cyl 4: 28.25"
Cyl 5: 34.5"
Cyl 6: 28.25"
Now these are my custom cut set, I didn't run them perfect, so I want some more measurements


Overall length of stock wires (Includes 3" OE metal end at spark plug) measured to center line of opening on the OE coil side boots.
The OE type coil side boots are 2.0 overall and 1.5 to the center line.
The MSD type coil side boots are 1.75 overall and 1.5 to the center line.
It looks like the MSD type are only a .25 in shorter overall than the OE ones. Can someone let me know if these lengths will work or what is really needed when using the Gruven bracket?
#1 41.75
#2 36.25
#3 36.125
#4 29.125
#5 29.625
#6 21.50


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (FourSeasonTuning.com)*

Did you mean the full list of what's needed to do the swap or just
specifically the wire info?
I owe Paul a DIY write up but have been too busy. Maybe someone
else can write it.


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (jamesn67)*

Correct ignition wire lengths to start. The whole DIY with harness info would be the best.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (FourSeasonTuning.com)*

I think there is still a DIY archived, the lengths I provided were for the bracket placement of the msd coils.
I think anything close to those lengths would work, but I can't be sure.
It'd be great to get a test setup with the bracket & wires together to make sure it is all measured correctly.
I'd do it myself, but I'm a little strapped for cash


----------



## piran21 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Any pics of the said resistor and where it's supposed to go? Anyone take pics of the wiring at all?


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (piran21)*

There are some really nice pics posted by a guy from Florida but
I can't recall his screen name.
as for the resistor you want to use a ballast resistor. MSD sells them,
I believe Acell does, as well as Radio Shack. MSD is 0.8 ohm, Radio shack is 1 Ohm. Not sure on the Acell, ask Siletn dub. I goes between the 15 pin and the coils.


----------



## piran21 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (jamesn67)*

Wasn't it supposed to be between 1.20 and 1.60 ohms? If someone can find that Florida guy's post/pics that'be great!


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (piran21)*

There is not a "supposed" resistor value to use. Actually you are "supposed" to be able to run without it. We have not yet done a study to show the minimum resistor required or yet found the reason why it's even needed. 
I am using a 0.8 ohm as I believe are some others. Some have used the radio shack with I believe is 1 ohm. Silentdub is using the Accel for which I don't know the rating.


----------



## piran21 (Jul 28, 2004)

And using the resistor stops the coils from blowing?


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (piran21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *piran21* »_And using the resistor stops the coils from blowing?

That is why they are being used. However, accodring to MSD they should not be required and some folks have been able to run without
them. At this point it is just a safety measure. I'd really like to find
the root cause and eliminate the resistor but I we haven't done that
yet.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

you know what I was wondering, I wonder if I originally grounded the msd coil, and thats what killed my ICM
hmmmm


----------



## BLKBOX (Jan 17, 2005)

*Re: (jamesn67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesn67* »_
That is why they are being used. However, accodring to MSD they should not be required and some folks have been able to run without
them. At this point it is just a safety measure. I'd really like to find
the root cause and eliminate the resistor but I we haven't done that
yet.

I'm thinking about removing mine from the setup, as well. TekstepVR6 is running without one and hasn't had any problems. The other day I blew my resistor up and just swapped it with another one and it was fine again. I had covered it in shrink wrap so I'd imagine that it didn't get much air to ventilate.


----------



## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

*Re: (FMF)*

we need a DIY... i am somewhat understanding the setup but it is still a little fuzzy... if we could get a decent of pictures and a play by play then it would maybe make it easier for some to inderstand the whole installation ... by the way what is the average price comparison for the oe coil and the msd solution?
and by the way this is great!!!














to the guys trying to make this work and explaining it to the rest of the community....awesome


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (Boost112)*

There are a couple of threads that are nearly a full DIY. 
The original thread with all the most info got black holed
unfortunately.
Cubix has a good amount of the DIY info as does the florida
guy...who for the life of me I can't remember the screen name!!!
Sorry.
Also, silentdub put a post on the vwfixx foumrs whith a lot of
the original info so go look for that one as well.


_Modified by jamesn67 at 11:32 PM 3-2-2007_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

FMF I think
I'll take somepics when I'm reinstalling it


----------



## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Don't forget that the older Chryslers used a ballast resister.
They were always know for going bad. Don't know the resistance
of it but you can pick those up at your local parts stores.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (onebdgti)*

Now that I think about it, I kind of moved my coil positons around on my bracket when I was diagnosing the burning coil.
I'm going to move it back to the way the oem coil is layed out, 
1/6 | 3/4 | 2/5, where as I had it backwards (2/5 | 3/4 | 1/6) . The physical position doesn't matter as long as it's wired correctly, but when I make the write up I'll keep it as close to oem configuration as possible.
I just want to reiterate that point to any people starting this and not fully up to speed, the physical placement of the coil does not matter, just because the 1/6 post on the ICM is on the far side, doesn't mean you can't move the coil to the opposite side of you mounting bracket, just label it and wire it accordingly. There would really be no gains from doing such a thing, I did it to diagnose a possibly ground on my bracket, and just haven't changed it back.


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Wire set shipped yesterday.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (FourSeasonTuning.com)*









Will post DIY w/ many photos next week

This just in: MSD coils let your car run on kittens


----------



## calder (Jun 8, 2003)

*Re: (Cubix)*

look forward to the DIY!!


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (calder)*

Got my bracket from fourseasons
Just waiting on wires.
After some consideration I kept the wires at the oe lengths, most of the measurments were just about the same, the two wires with the big difference came from me just cutting them way way long, so we'll see how it fits together. If anything, I'll fiddle with my placement
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

...still trying to find the brake fluid leak


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (o2bad455)*

So the ECU controls dwell and timing of spark, correct? all the ICM does is amplify it to the required (low) voltage to charge the coil?
Does the ICM do anything 'smarter' than amplify the current, or is it jsut a relay?


_Modified by kevwithoutacorrado at 2:39 PM 3-12-2007_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*

it's basically like a relay, I think I explained it a few posts ago, but I always try to find a way to simplify my explination.
The ECU simply sends 'on' signals, in the form of a +5v burst to the ICM. 
On the ICM end, every coil has constant power to is (+12v), and each post is a (-) ground.
When the ICM receives the +5v burst, it opens a relay that links the Neg post, to the Neg pin on the ICM.
I'll try to work up an animation for it.
I kind of have this theory that we can completely pull out the ICM and replace it with some relays... that would be awesome


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (Cubix)*

yeah, I get exactly what your saying - that answered my question.
I agree - it seems like there would be an easy way to bypass the stock icm using nice little solid state relays or something.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*

I wonder how much the icm increases the voltage.


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (Cubix)*

in other words whats the lowest voltage required to drive the coil and provide enough output still? or...


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*

how much we would need to amp up the voltage so we can phase out the icm


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

Any idea what coil-on-time the Stock ECU is pushing out?
I have asked MSD what duration they recommend for the 8224 GM towers and they suggest 2000 microseconds. I don't think timing is the problem though, but it's nice to know what MSD themselves recommend.
I did also ask what the optimum supply current is for the 8224s, but they omitted to answer that.
We've been conducting tests in the UK with these coils and we have found that the VW ICM is just not good enough for the MSDs. 
A development amplifier is currently in testing and I should find out how it's going in the next week or two. Early signs are encouraging.
The obvious advantages to a custom amp are a neater coil install, no need for ballasting and both stock and standalone ECUs can use it.
I'll keep you posted.


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (kevhayward)*

Now that would be fantastic! Please keep us posted. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (jamesn67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesn67* »_Now that would be fantastic! Please keep us posted. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

+1


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

-7!
muhahaha
So.... apparently I burned 4 coils!!!!! haha








I got everything together, and it started misfiring again, so right away I was like, oh no not again, but the misfire was only on cyl 6. so I swapped wires (1 & 6) tried again, now the misfire was on cyl 1, solution, throwing in a new msd coil (my very last one) and wa-lah, it works wonderfully. The one I had in there was used on the burned ICM, and I guess even though it did not crack, it damaged it enough not to work.
So my bad ICM took out 4 coils in total








*To all of you who didn't follow my problems in the previous threads, ignore what I said above







* 
I had previous problems with a bad ICM, and I refuse to realize it until I blew 200 dollars of msd coils, don't worry, we won't let that happen to all of you doing this project.
The new msd coils are in, and I finally got it running smoothly, thanks to the help of fourseasons it's working great, and once I add the wire spacers it'll be looking great too!
I have tons of pics and information, however, the old company i worked for that I am secretly running my website off of found out and shut down my webspace, so I might need a new place to host them.


_Modified by Cubix at 2:41 PM 3-14-2007_


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Did it blow with the resistor in line?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

Nah this was pre-resistor times


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Sent the pics to fourseason for hosting, hopefully the diy will be up tomorrow

Pic requests, anyone doing the wiring send me the pics so I can include. I reused the old wiring I had, so it's next clear cut step by step, but I'll do my best to explain


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (kevhayward)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevhayward* »_Any idea what coil-on-time the Stock ECU is pushing out?
.

The M2.9 and M5.9 calculation is too convoluted for me to reverse enginner fully.
Its based on deg of crank rotation so actual dwell time is a function of
engine RPM.
The ME7 stuff: 1.7ms at cruze/idle, ramping up to 2.1ms at WOT.
-Jeff


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*

Yeah, I think to get rid of the ICM you would need a standalone.
I think we are stuck with it.
The question is why would the MSD's not be ok with the dwell times
that the ICM puts out while the stock ones are?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

Well, if the msd coil charges up faster, it would need a shorter dwell time and possibly overcharge?
In any instance, 300 mi on my new set up, wires work excellent, took it to the shop to be inspected, emissions went through with a breeze, and they were so





















over my set up


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_In any instance, 300 mi on my new set up, wires work excellent, took it to the shop to be inspected, emissions went through with a breeze, and they were so





















over my set up

 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_Well, if the msd coil charges up faster, it would need a shorter dwell time and possibly overcharge?

 
Yes, but this would be the case in the GM application as well. Or any of their applications for that matter. I just keep scratching my head over this. I need to find the answer to this...it's realling bugging me.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

Major update to first thread.
Major as in DIY is up!
Thank James @ fourseason for helping us out with the project! 
With the wires in place, the set up looks easily professional, and no more cutting and crimping our own from a universal kit. 
Hopefully we can get more people into this project!


_Modified by Cubix at 2:02 PM 3-18-2007_


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Thanks for putting the DIY together Cubix http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

No problem








I'm thinking of turning the coils around to face in rather then out, might make the wiring look better then wrapping around the outside of the coils. Since all the posts are in a straight line, you can't do the 'staggerd' look without them bumping into each other.
hmm....
I'll think about it and take some more shots with what I decided.


----------



## poopooplatter (Jan 15, 2005)

*Re:*

this is a great thread.
My MSD is FINALLY going in today.
I've been waiting months to put it on.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: Re: (poopooplatter)*

Let us know,
you have a turbo installed right?


----------



## poopooplatter (Jan 15, 2005)

*Re: Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_Let us know,
you have a turbo installed right?

yep.
and just dynoed it this past weekend.....so i'll bring it back next weekend and see the difference....if any at all.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: Re: (poopooplatter)*

You are now my favorite
haha
sweet.
Remember to play with the plug gaps to. ".05 should be good, but up it in ".005 incremints to see what works best for your application, we haven't focused on it too much this thread.


----------



## poopooplatter (Jan 15, 2005)

*Re: Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_You are now my favorite
haha
sweet.
Remember to play with the plug gaps to. ".05 should be good, but up it in ".005 incremints to see what works best for your application, we haven't focused on it too much this thread. 

I know that im at .022 or something now........is that big of a jump in the gap going to be smart??
I guess we'll start at .035 and work from there.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: Re: (poopooplatter)*

the .05" comes from other people who have gapped their plugs higher with the MSD packs in the last thread we had.
I don't remember who exactly, but one of the guys started from oe gap and went as high as .06", which is when he started getting misfires.
So .05 should work, but definitely start low and work up, with the greater gap and spark, you should be able to see a nice difference.


----------



## poopooplatter (Jan 15, 2005)

*Re: Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_the .05" comes from other people who have gapped their plugs higher with the MSD packs in the last thread we had.
I don't remember who exactly, but one of the guys started from oe gap and went as high as .06", which is when he started getting misfires.
So .05 should work, but definitely start low and work up, with the greater gap and spark, you should be able to see a nice difference.


I'm excited.


----------



## -Zero- (Mar 11, 2007)

Nice job Cubix. I'm looking forward to giving this a shot.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (-Zero-)*








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
No problem
Still working on running the plug wires a little better, but now I'm on the road for work so I have to wait until I'm home next week.
I'm trying to find a 6 to 4 wire harness, maybe get one custom made, or if anything I'll work on getting those produced w/resistor as well.
Oh, and just incase anyone does need a new coilpack
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...d=1,1


----------



## VR6_00Jetta (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: (Cubix)*



Cubix said:


> Major update to first thread.
> Major as in DIY is up!
> Thank James @ fourseason for helping us out with the project!
> QUOTE]
> Is the DIY still up? I can't find it at Four Seasons or in Gary's (VgRt6)


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (VR6_00Jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6_00Jetta* »_


Cubix said:


> Major update to first thread.
> Major as in DIY is up!
> Thank James @ fourseason for helping us out with the project!
> QUOTE]
> Is the DIY still up? I can't find it at Four Seasons or in Gary's (VgRt6)






Cubix said:


> Well it wouldn't be in Garys because I wrote it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## VR6_00Jetta (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Duh. 
Beauty! 
It's been so long since I'd been back to the beginning (between this thread and the 1st one.) You musta' snuck it in








Thanks, Cubix!


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

Cubix, is there a specific reason you mounted the coils that way instead of flipping them?
I think I'm going to get the MSD coils on the road again, finally....been doing too many things at once.

















_Modified by Ryan Sickles at 9:28 PM 3-19-2007_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Ryan Sickles)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Ryan Sickles* »_Cubix, is there a specific reason you mounted the coils that way instead of flipping them?

Nope, infact, I'm thinking of turning them around so the wires won't need to go around the coils and such. And I can easily do it because of the spade connectors, making for easy replacement if/when necessary.


----------



## thai vr6 (Jan 18, 2003)

I've been following this thread for a while. Thank you very much for DIY write ups. 
I'm curious whether there is a way to check whether the ICM is bad besides blown coils. I'd be nice to know it before installing MSDs.


----------



## poopooplatter (Jan 15, 2005)

*Re: (thai vr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *thai vr6* »_I've been following this thread for a while. Thank you very much for DIY write ups. 
I'm curious whether there is a way to check whether the ICM is bad besides blown coils. I'd be nice to know it before installing MSDs. 


I've heard of some people that are using resistors.


----------



## piran21 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: (poopooplatter)*


----------



## poopooplatter (Jan 15, 2005)

*Re: (piran21)*


----------



## thai vr6 (Jan 18, 2003)

*Re: (poopooplatter)*


_Quote, originally posted by *poopooplatter* »_
I've heard of some people that are using resistors. 

how do I do, using resistors to check whether the ICM is bad? thanks.


----------



## poopooplatter (Jan 15, 2005)

*Re: (thai vr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *thai vr6* »_
how do I do, using resistors to check whether the ICM is bad? thanks.

I'm sorry, i meant they were using them to prevent blowing up the coils


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (poopooplatter)*

You're right, I have a Mallory resistor that I'll be installing once I get the bracket setup I'm looking for. The only thing is that I'm not using the 3 MSD duals, I'm using an MSD pack that's intended for Grand Nationals. Looks damn near stock, but still has the same specs as the duals.
I chose the Mallory because it's variable. I'll be starting it off at 1.2 and seeing where it goes from there.


----------



## AirWater98 (Jan 30, 2003)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_You're right, I have a Mallory resistor that I'll be installing once I get the bracket setup I'm looking for. The only thing is that I'm not using the 3 MSD duals, I'm using an MSD pack that's intended for Grand Nationals. Looks damn near stock, but still has the same specs as the duals.
I chose the Mallory because it's variable. I'll be starting it off at 1.2 and seeing where it goes from there.

I've been running no resistor now for 20+k miles. Still no problems. What is the deal with running it? Any cause for concern?


----------



## thai vr6 (Jan 18, 2003)

*Re: (poopooplatter)*


_Quote, originally posted by *poopooplatter* »_
I'm sorry, i meant they were using them to prevent blowing up the coils

Thank you for clearing that up. If this sounds idiotic, please forgive me. You are saying that there's no way to check the ICM prior the installation, right?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (thai vr6)*

I was looking into it before, but the dwell time is so short, you'd need specific equipment to test it.
The project began getting so complex that it was just easier to buy a new one


----------



## nappent (Oct 16, 2003)

I've been following this project for a while and wanted to say wow! All the work all of you have done is crazy. One questions is what type of MPG increase are we seeing? 1.. 2... 4mpg? 
Fill me in, because that is the type of stuff where I can see that it is worth spending the money to save me money in the future.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (nappent)*

I couldn't tell you.
I think I have an O2 sensor out or something, my gas mileage is REALLY REALLY bad.
On the up side, it's 1~2 mpg better then awful since I put the msd packs in. but I'm getting like 22 on the highway










_Modified by Cubix at 12:21 AM 3-22-2007_


----------



## thai vr6 (Jan 18, 2003)

*Re: (Cubix)*

thank you http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

*Re: (thai vr6)*

These seem pretty easy, but I decided to go the cheap easier route. The epoxy/silicone route. And it worked fine no misfires yet runs like it has a new coilpack on. Cleaned off the coil to find the cracks, used epoxy on the cracks and let dry. Then covered the entire coil surface(not the metal Part) with silicone, installed the ICM and cover and wala. Cost 6 bucks for the epoxy and silicone!
But then again MSD coils are stronger and produce lots more volts than oem which means more spark!


----------



## Tire_Marx (Mar 4, 2004)

slim, while your way is absolutly fine, there does come a point where all the kings horses and all the kings men cant epoxy the coil back together again.
there is where this fix is nice


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Slimjimmn)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slimjimmn* »_These seem pretty easy, but I decided to go the cheap easier route. The epoxy/silicone route. And it worked fine no misfires yet runs like it has a new coilpack on. Cleaned off the coil to find the cracks, used epoxy on the cracks and let dry. Then covered the entire coil surface(not the metal Part) with silicone, installed the ICM and cover and wala. Cost 6 bucks for the epoxy and silicone!

Yea..... 








lol
















After a while the coil burns out and no amount of epoxy helps, but thanks for a great question








(sorry, too much futurama, plus work in Orlando = crazy)


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_After a while the coil burns out and no amount of epoxy helps

Before the coil blows/burns out, anywhere from 50k miles right up till it dies, they get weaker and weaker; causing weak spark & incomplete burn... Which is why checking impedance is always important!


----------



## z3r03d_0ut (Nov 28, 2006)

*Re: (Ryan Sickles)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Ryan Sickles* »_
Before the coil blows/burns out, anywhere from 50k miles right up till it dies, they get weaker and weaker; causing weak spark & incomplete burn... Which is why checking impedance is always important!

My coil died at 195k since I've replaced it my gas mileage has gone up 2 - 3 mpg at least. I'm getting about 300 - 320 a tank whereas before I was getting 285 - 295 a tank. It's much improved, when this coil fails, or if I get a wild hair (and some money) up my ass, I'm definitly gonna give this alternative a shot.


----------



## poopooplatter (Jan 15, 2005)

*Re: (z3r03d_0ut)*


_Quote, originally posted by *z3r03d_0ut* »_
My coil died at 195k since I've replaced it my gas mileage has gone up 2 - 3 mpg at least. I'm getting about 300 - 320 a tank whereas before I was getting 285 - 295 a tank. It's much improved, when this coil fails, or if I get a wild hair (and some money) up my ass, I'm definitly gonna give this alternative a shot.

Are you doing all highway miles?????????????????








I get 180 miles per tank.


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: (poopooplatter)*


_Quote, originally posted by *poopooplatter* »_
Are you doing all highway miles?????????????????








I get 180 miles per tank.









Practically all my driving is city (unless I go on a trip) and seeing just 225 on a tank isn't a surprise...but 180 is like 12MPG. Do you drive heavy-footed at all?


----------



## poopooplatter (Jan 15, 2005)

*Re: (Ryan Sickles)*

yeah but not that much.
Even before i turboed the VR, i was getting 190 a tank.......


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

When I first got my VR I did have an instance where I got like 175ish on a tank, but that was with some really 'spirited' driving...old 8v could do 250 on a tank at WOT all the time...


----------



## z3r03d_0ut (Nov 28, 2006)

*Re: (poopooplatter)*


_Quote, originally posted by *poopooplatter* »_
Are you doing all highway miles?????????????????








I get 180 miles per tank.









I do a fair amount of highway, but even with city driving I get into the high 200s or better. I also drive pretty chill most of the time, I usually rev it slowly to 3500 and then shift. If I drive it hard (aka fun) my mileage drops considerably.


----------



## zcxerxes (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: (poopooplatter)*


_Quote, originally posted by *poopooplatter* »_
Are you doing all highway miles?????????????????








I get 180 miles per tank.










I've been getting around 245 - 260 a tank, almost all city driving. I just put the msd's in this weekend. running alot smoother haven't used up a whole tank yet so not sure of milage.


----------



## piran21 (Jul 28, 2004)

I just got 330 miles on my last tank... i wonder if the MSD's will improve it further or not


----------



## vr6chris (May 26, 2003)

no write up yet? you people are slackin lol


----------



## piran21 (Jul 28, 2004)

check the first page of this thread...


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (vr6chris)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6chris* »_no write up yet? you people are slackin lol

Somebody else want to take this one?


----------



## piran21 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_
Somebody else want to take this one?

see above...


----------



## vr6chris (May 26, 2003)

sry, never checked the 1st page. good lookin out.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (piran21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *piran21* »_
see above...

It took me like 10 minutes to post my post....
This holiday inn is killing me
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

I installed everything but the car won't start and I am not sure if the coils are even putting out power. Any help would be great now.


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lilmikesbigvr* »_I installed everything but the car won't start and I am not sure if the coils are even putting out power. Any help would be great now.

You could either have something wiried incorrectly, bad ICM, or firing order crossed. Double check all your wiring first.
Think now would be a good time to say this, but there's more than enough amperage in these coilds to kill you, so be extremely cautious! I've watched my brother get shocked at his hand and it arc'd out through his knee & past the bumper to the frame.


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lilmikesbigvr* »_I installed everything but the car won't start and I am not sure if the coils are even putting out power. Any help would be great now.

what led you to install the this setup? a pre-existing problem, like no spark? are you sure your ICM works? Have you checked the output of the ECU at the coilpack harness? have you pulled spark plugs to check for spark out of the cylinder?


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (Ryan Sickles)*

I don't have a volt ohm meter to check for voltage at the coils. Is there a way to check for voltage without the meter or should I just start looking at the wiring. I did wire in a ballast resistor I bought from napa(1.2 ohms). I fastened it to the bracket and I ran the line from the power through the resistor and spliced in the three wires with these blue locking things.


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*

The car was misfiring alot and sometimes it would take a long time to turn over. I replaced the plugs and wires also with this setup. my coil pack had some cracks in it also. the car had a big loss in power and when I tried to speed up on the highway it would shake and sometimes if it was bad enough the cel light would blink.


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*

Make sure the resisitor you installed isn't grounding-out, so check the fuses to see if it popped.
If you can post pictures (specifically your wiring, etc.), that'd help out a bunch. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (Ryan Sickles)*

I took pictures and resized them but I don't know how to post them.


----------



## SlowMotion (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*

host then @ photobucket.com


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (SlowMotion)*

http://s150.photobucket.com/al...bigvr/
http://i150.photobucket.com/al...4.jpg
http://i150.photobucket.com/al...3.jpg
http://i150.photobucket.com/al...2.jpg


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*

I took the resistor off and used grommits to keep it seperated from the bracket. should I hook it all back up without bloting it in and see what happens?


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*

The black wires are the 1/6,4/3, and 2/5 from the icm to the coils. The red wire is from the other post on the icm to the ballast resistor and from the ballast resistor is another red wire which I spliced into three yellow wires with blue splice blocks. I really don't know if I did this wrong or backwards but please help me out cause the car cranks but doesn't turn over as if there is no spark.


----------



## phishfud (May 31, 2003)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*

I am gonne be doing this mod pretty soon, and I gotta say the DIY was VERY helpful. Makes much more sense now. Is there a wiring diagram posted anywhere? The wiring is what has me a bit stumped, and didn't know if I mised a diagram or there isn't one. Thanks.
Terry


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (phishfud)*

Theres one on the first page a little lower, I'll have another one posted soon, thanks for reminding me
And thanks to Ryan Sickles for reminding all of us about the amount of power coming from this project, I've put the warning on the topic thread because safety is always number one
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*

So post 15 has the power/red wire going to the resistor then to each
coil? 
All others are negative right?
If that's how it's wire that sounds right. Try it withput the resistor as someone did that once had had success.


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

do you know if there is a way to test for voltage to see if the power is flowing through the resistor to the coils or if there is a way to test the icm?


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*

If anyone has any other ideas post them up and I will look into tomorrow as the night is soon to end for me. Thanks for all the help.


----------



## T99inFL (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*

Have you checked the resistor with a meter to see if it reads its rated value?
Have you checked the fusebox?
Do you ever get 12v on pin 15?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (T99inFL)*

Sorry, it's really hard for my to follow because my internet in this hotel is sooooo bad. Did you say there were pre-existing problems?
Make sure you wired the plug wires into the correct coils.
I marked the post number on the coil so I knew which position was where.

The most important thing is, did it work before you assembled it?
What plug wires are you using??? If you made them yourself, are you sure you crimped them correctly?


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_And thanks to Ryan Sickles for reminding all of us about the amount of power coming from this project, I've put the warning on the topic thread because safety is always number one 

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Cubix, did you solder your wires onto the ICM posts? I kind of like lilmikesbigvr's idea of cutting the tip of the post and using a femal crimp-on connector, but probably will go the soldering route...
Should have pics to report tomorrow night (erm, tonight...







).


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: Re: (poopooplatter)*


_Quote, originally posted by *poopooplatter* »_I know that im at .022 or something now........is that big of a jump in the gap going to be smart??
I guess we'll start at .035 and work from there.









What boost are you running? 
I would start with .030 and see how that runs and then gradually increase it until you start feeling break up / misfiring. 
Don't forget the N/A boys don't need to worry about the spark blowing out, so .060 is fine for them.
I'm pretty sure the MSDs can keep it going on boost @ .060, but work up to it gradually as you don't want to bore wash with the injectors at full chat


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

There was pre-existing problems like long starts in the morning and bucking when driving especiallly if it was raining or is raining. One time I had a flashing CEL light. It did work before I starded this install but I am kind of unsure what to try next. I think I will try and get a hold of a volt/ohm meter today and go from there. I want to know if its getting the power after the resistor or not. I got the wires from fourseasonstuning.com and I got a set of plugs from advance auto parts and everything is installed. I did start pulling fuses last night and that was about the last thing I tried. Everyhting looked fine but I mainly went through the ignition fuses in the interior and the ones with the transmission logo. I have to go to work in a bit but hopefully I will get a chance to come home and troubleshoot. So if I am getting the correct voltage out of the wiring harness I guess I should check of off the resistor to see if it i present there right? Just keep giving me ideas and when I get the time I will look into them all, Thanks for everything guys.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Ryan Sickles)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Ryan Sickles* »_ 
Cubix, did you solder your wires onto the ICM posts? 

I did solder them. I stripped off about 3/4" of the wire, wrapped it through the slots in the post then soldered it on the top. My set up is made in a way that I can easily throw the oe coil back on, or replace any part of it, very simply.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lilmikesbigvr* »_There was pre-existing problems like long starts in the morning and bucking when driving especiallly if it was raining or is raining. One time I had a flashing CEL light. 


Flashing CEL would be coil pack. 
Make sure the ICM harness is connected properly, and check that fuel is getting to the injectors as well. 
Did you reconnect the brake booster hose?


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

^The brake booster line runs into manifold infront of the firewall on an AFP. I'm going to go the solder route, but definetly know what you mean about being about to go back to stock, so think I'll stray from cutting the posts. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
lilmikesbigvr, have you gotten the engine to even attempt to start turning over yet? Try removing/bypassing the resistor...as you very well could have a bad one. Next step is picking up an LED 12v tester which should exactly pinpoint the problem...


----------



## bmxdarcy (Mar 7, 2006)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_

Flashing CEL would be coil pack. 
...and check that fuel is getting to the injectors as well. 

Flashing CEL could also be the fuel issue, as with my VR. *lilmike* your car is misfiring and a misfire of any source will cause CEL blink. This is why mine was:








(the locals used to say welcome to florida f*ckers)
florida ruined *THREE* fuel pumps when i beleived the dealer telling me they cleaned the tank the second time. on the first one i was oblivious to what was going on and finally one day my car didn't start, therefore i bought plugs, wires and a new coil pack and it didn't solve the problem, (my brother's currently running the old coil pack, it was fine). anyway, check your filter screen or go have the fuel pressure tested and you may find the problem. its easy to do. so is cleaning your tank....
i apologize for the long off topic post!



_Modified by bmxdarcy at 12:59 PM 3-27-2007_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (bmxdarcy)*

Word
Blinking CEL is a misfire, but I didn't think fuel would cause it, I usually get it from bad coil pack, and if there is arcing when wet like he said, I figured that would be the culprit.
The ICM could've died, sometimes the damaged coil will take the icm with it.
Good luck man, keep up posted

Edit:
I should've checked to see if he was AFP


_Modified by Cubix at 12:33 PM 3-27-2007_


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

There is a cylindrical component behind the coil pack that is humming and vibrating. Is that normal? I also went out and purchased a volt/ohm meter. Just trying to figure out how to work it and what to exactly test for.


----------



## T99inFL (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lilmikesbigvr* »_There is a cylindrical component behind the coil pack that is humming and vibrating. Is that normal? I also went out and purchased a volt/ohm meter. Just trying to figure out how to work it and what to exactly test for.

That would be your secondary coolant pump, and thats normal.


----------



## T99inFL (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*

Are we guessing that there is an ignition problem preventing you from starting or are there symptoms to confirm that this is so? 
When you open the drivers door, do you hear the fuel pump buzzing?


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (T99inFL)*

i haven't noticed, what should i look for? could a blown fuse be the culprit?


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*

I was checking the resistor i have in place and I did get a 1.6-1.9ohm reading. I was wondering how to check if there is voltage coming off point 15 or how to troubleshoot a bad icm?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*

you try not using the resistor?


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

not yet I was worried that without the resistor I might blow a coil if the icm is bad but if you think I should give it a shot I'll try anything right about now.


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*

is point 15 an AC or DC voltage?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*

Well I think if the ICM is bad it would've blown the resistor
but i'm not sure
try it without the resistor 1.6ohm may be too high
worse that can happen is you'll blow a coil and know exactly what the problem it


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

alright I'll wire it up and then give it another shot.


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*

i was pullin the wire of off the resistor and the crimp fitting i put on point 15 stood but the red wire came out of the fitting.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*

damnnn 2 minutes, hahaha
was that what the problem was?


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*

Do you think i should put it back together and see if it works with the resistor or try it without after I fix my shotty wiring?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*

fix it, try with the resistor, if it still doesn't work try without
just make sure all the wiring is good


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*

Thanks guys for all your great input and my baby has started up and she sounds so sweet but the night is about done for me. I have to go eat dinner now and its already 9pm so again thanks and one more thing there is a little plastic part that I did notice was broken that connects the shifter rod to the actuator arm. Is anyone fabricating that part out of aluminum or metal by any chance or have an extra one cause that is not shifting due to the broken missing part. just let me know and I will check back in the morning.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*

::jewish dance to hava nagila::
tighttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
But you must tell us, what was the cause of the problem?
Wiring or resistor?

*Announcment::*
Hey guys, I want to make a better DIY section of the wiring of the coils, so anyone who is looking to do this project *get in contact with me*, I'll wire the ICM/Coils and mount to the bracket (all of which you must have to send to me).


----------



## T99inFL (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_::jewish dance to hava nagila::
tighttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
But you must tell us, what was the cause of the problem?
Wiring or resistor?


Ten bucks says wiring!










_Modified by T99inFL at 10:06 PM 3-27-2007_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (T99inFL)*

So my next step in this project is the addition of a phenolic spacer either between the coils and bracket, or icm and bracket
more information later http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

So ran into some issues today...was building my bracket out of 14-gauge aluminum and it looks like I'm not going to be able to run my plastic battery box cover, as there isn't enough room for the coils to fit between the block and battery cover. I'll mess with it tomorrow and see if I can figure something out.
*silentdub*, what base are you using/do you have any pics of the base buildup (or anyone that knows what he's running)?
Does anyone know if the bracket from FourSeasons [paying sponsor] will still let me keep the cover? I'd like to keep it as it helps keep the terminals and everything clean.


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_So my next step in this project is the addition of a phenolic spacer either between the coils and bracket, or icm and bracket
more information later http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I'd like to see that http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I put a couple of sheets of gasket
material but I'd rather use the phenolic spacer myself.


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

I think it was the wiring. the heat shrink was holding the wire tight but it was never really in place I guess so when I pullen on it a little harder it just came right out. I crimped a new fitting and soldered it so it won't back out of the fitting this time. So far so good she started and sounds good. Have to put the rest of it together and tske it for a test run this evening. I will post up my findings.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*

Alright, so I've decided the best place to put the phenolic spacer is between the engine and ICM, thus hopefully extending the life of the ICM

On the note of ICMs, I'm getting a lot of questions on how to tell if your ICM is bad or not. 
This is a hard call. I'll tell you this much, if you are getting a misfire on ONE of the TWO cylinders for each section, the your ICM is probably good.
swaping your wires (1 with 6, or 2 and 5, or 3 with 4) and seeing if the misfire moves to that cylinder will tell you if its a coil problem (if it does move) or if it's a wire/plug problem (if it DOESN'T move).
The ICM is most likely damaged if:
-You did the JB weld multiple times
-It STILL misfires 
-It starts misfiring while dry (check plugs/wires first)
-If BOTH cyl. on a section start misfiring
If you start experiencing burning coils. (which hasn't come up for a while, I think I was just really really lucky)
-Make sure you're using at least 14g wire (12 is better)
-Make sure there are no grounds before you start
-Make sure all crimps and solders are good, using a continuity tester (or make one with some wire, a lightbulb and a 9v battery







)
-Replace the ICM, don't waste time, buy a used coil pack and go from there.
A note on my burning coils. 
I started this project because my coil pack was hell. I had jb welded it 3 times in 3 years, it had ~135k on it, and just kept arcing. The last time I welded it I threw on 5 coats of rubber seal, and it STILL misfired. That amount of damage, plus a possible ground from my original set up, just killed my ICM rendering is useless. 
You do take a risk with this project of blowing a coil, no one can deny that, use your head, if you know that your coilpack is old and abused to hell, the risk is higher that something will go wrong, on the other hand, it could be fine.
I really don't know of a way to test the ICM, I had rigged up a pretty sweet system using an old engine harness connected to 2 toggles (12+ and -) and 3 push buttons and then lightbulbs on the icm posts to allow me to 'simulate' the ECU signals. And from the lightbulbs flashing, it looked fine. The problem is the dwell time is something I do not have the equipment to test, the gate has to be open for only a fraction of a second, too long and you'll blow a coil.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Oh, and if you pull the ICM off the metal plate then it definitely won't work and you should take pictures of it and post it because it looks freaky


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Ok, last post of the night i swear.
I'm an idiot to forget about mentioning this.
When I finally settled with the fact that my ICM was bad, I tested this by removing the coil from the ICM, and then using wires to bridge the posts to the coils. Then I rotated which section represented which cylinders. So instead of having 1/6 3/4 2/5, I had 3/4 2/5 1/6 and so on. My 1/6 misfire continued no matter which section of the coil I used as 1/6
Remember, the coil itself is just a coil, it has no bearing on what cylinders are being fired, this depends on which post you wire to that coil.
Thats the best way I can think of to test the ICM
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Those of you who remember my photos of franken-dub know what I'm talking about.
I'll repost the pics as soon as I put up my new web server


_Modified by Cubix at 12:28 AM 3-30-2007_


----------



## T99inFL (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_
When I finally settled with the fact that my ICM was bad, I tested this by removing the coil from the ICM, and then using wires to bridge the posts to the coils. Then I rotated which section represented which cylinders. So instead of having 1/6 3/4 2/5, I had 3/4 2/5 1/6 and so on. My 1/6 misfire continued no matter which section of the coil I used as 1/6
Remember, the coil itself is just a coil, it has no bearing on what cylinders are being fired, this depends on which post you wire to that coil.
Thats the best way I can think of to test the ICM
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


Very concise and accurate description! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## thai vr6 (Jan 18, 2003)

thank you very much indeed...


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## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

so far i haven't had no problems with my setup but i have only been having the misfiring problem since december and instead of jb welding it i was waiting for this setup to develop a little. my jetta is a 2000 glx with a vr-6 and i only have 64,000 on it. i bought it used with 10,300 over 2 years ago. the majority of my miles are highway,traveling between richmond and norfolk naval base when i was active. I think the icm is in good shape though.


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lilmikesbigvr* »_so far i haven't had no problems with my setup but i have only been having the misfiring problem since december and instead of jb welding it i was waiting for this setup to develop a little. my jetta is a 2000 glx with a vr-6 and i only have 64,000 on it. i bought it used with 10,300 over 2 years ago. the majority of my miles are highway,traveling between richmond and norfolk naval base when i was active. I think the icm is in good shape though.

Notice a difference, though? Although it'd be hard with the car being out of comission since December....


----------



## lilmikesbigvr (Feb 28, 2007)

*Re: (Ryan Sickles)*

I did keep on driving it since work was only six munites from the house but when it started to get really bad I got permission from my supervisor to take the company vehicle for a week while I got the parts together and fixed it. She does drive strong now but I feel like it missing something and I am not sure if its that broken part that shifts the shifter rod which supposedly controls air flow for the engine. I am trying to locate that part that connects the rod and the actuator but so far no luck.


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: (lilmikesbigvr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lilmikesbigvr* »_I did keep on driving it since work was only six munites from the house but when it started to get really bad I got permission from my supervisor to take the company vehicle for a week while I got the parts together and fixed it. She does drive strong now but I feel like it missing something and I am not sure if its that broken part that shifts the shifter rod which supposedly controls air flow for the engine. I am trying to locate that part that connects the rod and the actuator but so far no luck. 

A faulty shifter rod will definetly make your car feel like it's missing a pair of cylinders (though the sound is pretty wicked).
Go to the dealership and they can pull it up on the computer (with diagrams and everything, get the actual part number). Even if you don't order from them you can atleast get in and get the part #. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

*VR6 coilpack alternative*

Brackets are now Alloy instead of steel.


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

^You read my mind to bump this thread.
I'm almost at installment point. I'm pretty impressed with what I've got so far; considering I am fortunate enough to have all the materials and some new coils just laying around. Total cost so far is only about $5 at RadioShack on the resistor and connectors. I started out with some 1/8'' aluminum sheet, paint, wires, terminals, screws, etc. I all had laying around.
As I anxiously await some plug wires, allow me to bore everyone with some pictures (note, ICM not wired because I'll be using the one in my car)...
EDIT: I siliconed the wires at the quick-connect, I noticed everyone siliconed the spade terminals at the coils. I'm debating if I should do this or not, as the heatshrink over the spade terminal goes all the way down to the coil. Opinions? 



































_Modified by Ryan Sickles at 10:17 PM 4-5-2007_


----------



## Northren vr6 (May 29, 2004)

*Re: (Ryan Sickles)*

Just about got mine done yesterday.... just the plug wires to do.... ill post pics later tonight http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Northren vr6)*

Looking delicious guys








I'm running strong
over 1000 miles on the pack
My mpg is a little funky, I think because it is still cold
but I went from 230 per tank to 260 per tank (mild/aggressive)
Might need new plugs, but for some reason, the weather decided it was going to snow in april, so it's too cold to do anything








then I did a fuel/oil seafoam and i'm still waiting for this tank to drain
waiting for a warm night to do the intake seafoam


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Lets welcome 'shapiror' to the project
He's been messaging me, he's planning on utilizing the MSD 8870 coil mount
Hopefully pics come soon
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: (Cubix)*

can't wait to see how it works out with the 8870 coil mount. Did MSD tell him
that they would replace the ICM or not.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (onebdgti)*

They don't, it says on the site it fits between stock GM ICM and coil
all it is is a mount


----------



## 631 Corrado (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: (Cubix)*

im selling my brand new set up if anyone isinterested http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3159640


----------



## shapiror (Dec 12, 2005)

*Re: (631 Corrado)*

hey guys... just wanted to say hi. i drew up a wiring diagram in paint and emailed it to cubix, just waiting on a response. i'm still waiting on the funds to roll in for the project, hopefully I'll have pics and everything done soon.
-randy


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (shapiror)*

I got your email, but i'll have to check it tomorrow, gotta back and fly to orlando....
AGAIN...
damn work







and another 3 weeks leaving my car @ a shady parking lot
I'm not sure on the wiring of the msd 8870, it looks as if you wire the 12v in one side then can chain them together, which would work, i'll try and pull up the msd diagram tomorrow after work


_Modified by Cubix at 11:10 PM 4-8-2007_


----------



## shapiror (Dec 12, 2005)

*Re: (Cubix)*

here's the link for the msd diagram: http://store.summitracing.com/...2Epdf. i'm pretty sure the wiring is quite simple. just put the two 12v together and the 2 coil leads together. the only reason there are two 12v and two coil leads is for if the cylinders do not fire at the same time so you can have different spark timing per plug.
since with this engine 2 cylinders fire at the same time, just splice the wires together and have them act as one.
btw, the colors in the diagram i emailed you correspond to the coloring on the msd 8870s.


_Modified by shapiror at 12:00 AM 4-9-2007_


----------



## Philywilly03 (Mar 28, 2007)

*Finally finished*

Just did the upgrade and after a brief scare with two crossed wires, it now runs great. Looks good too. I think I'm going to trim the wires a little more to clean it up. If anyone was wondering, I have the Autotech 10.4mm wires and the MSD ends fit just fine. Thank you to everyone who helped add the the DIY info.









_Modified by Philywilly03 at 8:26 AM 4-15-2007_


_Modified by Philywilly03 at 8:28 AM 4-15-2007_


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: Finally finished (Philywilly03)*

Hey guys, sorry I've not updated this in a while.
I did mine a long time ago and modded a set of Schimmel wires with the GM ends, looks quite neat. I'm also using the 8870 bases, although they are not pictured. The only thing I would say about the 8870s is it makes the whole assembly VERY bulky. You will have space considerations.
The 8870s are worthwhile as they come with insulating pads, bolts, crimps etc etc and you will get a 100% good connection to the coil. Plus they have female spades underneath too, so you can cut the 4 wires off and just use your own male spade loom instead.
Here's my gruven bracket, modded leads and coils. I haven't uploaded the shots of them mounted on the 8870s yet. Will do soon.








My friend is also playing with this amplifier in place of the VW one, so I'll let you know how that goes too. it can support up to 9 amps feed to the coils, which should be plenty. I reckon it is a lot more stable and better quality than the VW one, but time will tell.
http://www.haltech.com/ignmodule.htm
Mine aren't on the car yet, been too busy


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: Finally finished (kevhayward)*

so, is our ecu controling dwell? or is the ICM?


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: Finally finished (kevwithoutacorrado)*

ECU controls the dwell.


----------



## poopooplatter (Jan 15, 2005)

Done!!!!


----------



## Dkline (May 16, 2004)

*Re: (poopooplatter)*

looks nice http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif tell me how it works out i have a vr6t also.


----------



## Northren vr6 (May 29, 2004)

*Re: (Dkline)*

Just finished my setup yesterday. Used msd heatsheild on the rear 3 wires and boots as they sit under the schrick, pretty much ontop of the exhaust heatsheild. You can see the ballast resistor mounted on the rad support. This was its easy to get at, and if i have the time i will wire in a hidden kill switch to the ignition +12v.








Just gotta see if it works now


----------



## poopooplatter (Jan 15, 2005)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD*

*Let me tell you, my car is a totally different car with this set up ( plugs gapped at .40 now)....the powerband is just absolutly perfect....the throttle response is incredible....and there is no such thing as REDLINE
anymore.*


----------



## T99inFL (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (poopooplatter)*


_Quote, originally posted by *poopooplatter* »_*Let me tell you, my car is a totally different car with this set up ( plugs gapped at .40 now)....the powerband is just absolutly perfect....the throttle response is incredible....and there is no such thing as REDLINE
anymore.*


Your plugs gapped at 0.040" and running under boost demonstrates just how powerful this ignition conversion is! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## poopooplatter (Jan 15, 2005)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (T99inFL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T99inFL* »_
Your plugs gapped at 0.040" and running under boost demonstrates just how powerful this ignition conversion is! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

WORD! I absolutly love this set up.


----------



## formulavr6 (Oct 9, 2004)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (T99inFL)*

Stock will miss at 0.026'' under boost, go figure, these can run at 40 thou gap http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (formulavr6)*

Does anyone remember who the person is that originally did this particular conversion?








I know that he posted in one of the earlier threads before they got blackholed. I have a few quick questions before I put the finishing touches on the setup.


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_Does anyone remember who the person is that originally did this particular conversion?


Call Jamie or Pete at Sleepers.
Pete's Vortex ID: CNCPete

-Jeff


----------



## bjettin (May 4, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

hey Im looking to do the MSD coil pack install on my car. You mentioned the MSD coil interface module #8870 would make the install much easier. I don't understand the wiring diagram and was wondering what part of the install does the interface make easier? Is it the wiring?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (bjettin)*

Makes the wiring easier because you don't need spade connectors and grounding stuff, etc, etc.
Responded to all IMs
If you have any other questions, IM me at cubixy2k on aim, I'm on the road traveling so I've been busy busy busy


----------



## clunkyVR6 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

I've got almost 50,000kms on my MSD setup (no resistor) and it's still running super strong. I'm about to change the plugs just as preventative maintenance. I'll probably open up the gaps a bit this time too after reading all of these recent posts.
My question now is: has anyone had to get their car recertified after this modification? I will be moving from Ontario, Canada to Reno, Nevada in a couple of months and will need to get my car safetied and certified down there... and I really don't want to get out there just to find out that I can't keep my car on the road.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (clunkyVR6)*

MSD packs are 50 state legal in the US (Cali must use Cali emission sticker that comes with packs)
I got my car inspected w/emissions and they were really low, and the people in the shop were like





















when they opened my hood. Passed with flying colors


----------



## Roadhog_ (Feb 26, 2007)

*Re: (Northren vr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Northren vr6* »_Just finished my setup yesterday. Used msd heatsheild on the rear 3 wires and boots as they sit under the schrick, pretty much ontop of the exhaust heatsheild. You can see the ballast resistor mounted on the rad support. This was its easy to get at, and if i have the time i will wire in a hidden kill switch to the ignition +12v.








Just gotta see if it works now









What is that battery you are running? And how is it?


----------



## Northren vr6 (May 29, 2004)

*Re: (Roadhog_)*

Its an Odeyssey drycell PC 545. 230 CCA. I think this particular one is for a harley davidson. It works ok, just don't leave your lights or stereo running with the car off.


----------



## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (poopooplatter)*

For those of you who may have a BAD ICM (ignition control module) There is also an alternative for that as well, so you can ditch it when the OEM goes bad.
A guy on the vwfixx in my "alternative coil pack" thread has purchased and used this module.
When my ICM dies, I will look at this one.
http://www.vwfixx.com/forums/i...32150

http://www.haltech.com/ignmodule.htm
I just thought that you guys would like to know.


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (silentdub)*

Hey Silent! Nice to see you. Been forgetting to check your vwfixx post.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (silentdub)*

What's the price on that Haltech ICM? I'd love to ditch the whole coilpack if possible.


----------



## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (VertigoGTI)*

Just put my install Yesterday with the MSD coils and I can't believe the difference it makes your car run. It idles so much smoother and it seems like it revs a little faster. When I get a chance I will take some pics of the install. And thanks guys for all of your help. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (onebdgti)*

those Haltech units are like $140 from what I've seen, but it looks like an icm from a 98 volvo s90 is the same, and half the price.. just have to add a heatsink:
http://replacement.autopartswa...false


----------



## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (Slayer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slayer* »_those Haltech units are like $140 from what I've seen, but it looks like an icm from a 98 volvo s90 is the same, and half the price.. just have to add a heatsink:
http://replacement.autopartswa...false

those ICM look like the ones on the 1.8T.....I had issues with the Bosch one get the Huco ones


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (ricardo)*

Ok, I felt like giving something back to you guys, so I did some more digging.. This icm is a standard Bosch / Hueco (Huco) unit that is used quite a few brands of cars. Probably the easiest one to get ahold of would be from a Volvo.
Volvo# 1367776. 
GM# 90444189 and 904622248, but I couldn't find anything listed for those, so that may be bunk. Either way, any of them would be the Bosch / Huco units
Bosch: 0 227 100 203, 0 227 100 208, or 0 227 100 214 (bosch 0 227 100 124 also looks very similar- used by megasquirt and motec, and found on porsche 928/944, saab 9000/900, and volvo 740/60/80)
Huco: 138403

There are other companies that use them: alfa, ferrari, fiat, lancia, opel, but finding those will probably be impossible and expensive
These are 7 pin icm's, and you can get plugs to make a harness like Haltech includes which are Bosch #1 287 013 005 , or VAG part #071 906 233
I looked to try and find a "male" connector to go into the plug that our VR6 coilpack harness uses so it would be easy to make an adapter harness, but I don't think there is such a thing.. We might just have to snip that plug off and convert it to the bosch 7 pin connector
here's a few more places that I found them for sale at:
http://www.importpartsspec.com...49594
http://www.autopartsworld.com/....html
http://www.fcpgroton.com/sv90/...l.htm
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by Slayer at 12:54 PM 5-1-2007_


----------



## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (Slayer)*

Was just wondering if anybody was having any codes for lean codition when they did thins mod. Cause all of a sudden I have been getting codes for lean codition on my primary O2 sensor.


----------



## SlowMotion (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (Slayer)*

That's a good find http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
maybe this place carry the plug 
eagleday.com
they're (the icu ) is $69 from fcp, but it looks like it's a 7 wire 


_Modified by SlowMotion at 12:43 AM 5-2-2007_


----------



## SlowMotion (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (SlowMotion)*

I got a question 
Where do I check the resistance from the coilpack ?
I got a misfire that refuse to go away on cyl#6 and wanted to test the pack.
I need to know if I could use it for my conversion.


----------



## SlowMotion (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (Slayer)*

I think I found the male 5 pin AMP connector here
http://shop.vetcosurplus.com/c...=6849
take a look at that


----------



## eastofjava (Aug 14, 2006)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_










Is that this coil? http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs...10681


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (SlowMotion)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SlowMotion* »_I got a question 
Where do I check the resistance from the coilpack ?
I got a misfire that refuse to go away on cyl#6 and wanted to test the pack.
I need to know if I could use it for my conversion.


swap wire 1 and 6 on the coil pack see if the misfire moves


----------



## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (eastofjava)*

Is that this coil? http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs...10681
Yes that the same coilpack.


----------



## eastofjava (Aug 14, 2006)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (onebdgti)*

did you have to modify that coil in anyway?
also, is it fundamentally wrong to use a buick part in a vw?


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (eastofjava)*

I didn't have to modify it anymore than the MSDs. It's not really a Buick part either, it's an Accel. If it makes ya feel any better, it was intended for the Grand National!


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (SlowMotion)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SlowMotion* »_That's a good find http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
maybe this place carry the plug 
eagleday.com
they're (the icu ) is $69 from fcp, but it looks like it's a 7 wire 

_Modified by SlowMotion at 12:43 AM 5-2-2007_

eagleday does have the 7pin connector, its listed as a 7-pole female junior timer connector kit for $25 (yes, crazy price but the cheapest elsewhere is australia for $25 and 10 day shipping)
the actual part is an AMP / tyco electronics 144477-1 - http://catalog.tycoelectronics...&I=13
the image is wrong on the page, but if you click the pdf, its actually the correct part


----------



## SlowMotion (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_

swap wire 1 and 6 on the coil pack see if the misfire moves

Cubix I pm you about this issue a couple of weeks ago. The misfire didn't move.


----------



## T99inFL (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (SlowMotion)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SlowMotion* »_
Cubix I pm you about this issue a couple of weeks ago. The misfire didn't move.

If "The misfire didn't move" means the same cylinder misfires, that rules out the coil. My money is on a bad plug or plug wire.


----------



## SlowMotion (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (T99inFL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *T99inFL* »_
If "The misfire didn't move" means the same cylinder misfires, that rules out the coil. My money is on a bad plug or plug wire.

New plugs and wires. I tried with every siingle wire in cyl 6 and it was still there. Also switch the spark plugs with others in the engine and it was still misfiring.
I guess that my coil was good all along, so that gives me one for the convertion http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Now I need to take care of the issue at hand before proceding


----------



## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (SlowMotion)*

The plug that u pulled out of #6 was it wet or dry. Cause if it was wet did it smell like gas or oil. If it was wet then check the compreesion. Wet with oil means bad rings, wet with gas means bad injector or low compression. If it was dry then you might be looking at a bad injector. Hope this helps.


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

I bought a bunch of parts today.. got 3 Accel supercoils, a 98 volvo s90 ignition control module, an AMP 7pin "junior timer" connector & boot, and a bracket and set of wires from fourseasontuning. I am planning to wire it up as follows:








if anyone wants to look at the pdf's and stuff that i downloaded pertaining to this stuff its at http://www.dubnet.org/imgs/vr6ignition/ <- you may have to rt click / save the pdf's instead of just clicking.. otherwise it doesnt d/l


_Modified by Slayer at 11:08 PM 5-3-2007_


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (Slayer)*

So that ignition control module seems to work? Sweeeet news. this is what I was hoping would be found when this thing started! No one is having issues at high rpms with incorrect dwell or anything like that?


----------



## SlowMotion (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (onebdgti)*

The spark plugs were dry. I'll try to test the injector by measuring the resistance and the wire for a trigger signal.
Slayer in that wiring pin #2 on hte harness would be the trigger signal from the ecu to the icu and pin 1 would be the trigger signal to the coil ?
BTW I hope this work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (SlowMotion)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SlowMotion* »_The spark plugs were dry. I'll try to test the injector by measuring the resistance and the wire for a trigger signal.
Slayer in that wiring pin #2 on hte harness would be the trigger signal from the ecu to the icu and pin 1 would be the trigger signal to the coil ?
BTW I hope this work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

That's how it should work.. ecu sends 5v square wave to pin2 on icm, it flips pin1 to ground and it completes the circuit which should cause the coil to fire. Will let you know how it goes once I get all the stuff in and wire it in


----------



## swim69bob (Jan 25, 2005)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (Slayer)*

hey fellas, i just finshed my coilpack the other day, car was running like a raped ape, it was working beautiful, then it started misfiring badly,
found one coil to be bad at least i think, raplaced it, worked great again, for about 20 miles, i had the 1ohm resistor in it also, 
could it be the ignition module, or do i need a 1.5 ohm resistor, 
all the coils ohm out the same so i dont think they are bad,
anybody have any input,


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (swim69bob)*

probably ICM, test it out, and test the ECU signals


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (kevwithoutacorrado)*

its good to see that this mod hasnt died.
people are still improving it and its looking better than ever. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## vr6chris (May 26, 2003)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*

Just wondering, for plug wires, why would you buy the universale 8cyl plug wires. Why not buy the 25ft. bulk wire (43019) with the 3311 coil ends and 3301 plug ends. Seems like a cheaper alternative. Just looking to price this out the best I can. Are those the right plug and coil ends I would need? Thanks. btw, main reason I want to do this setup, I have to gap my plugs around .022 to run 16 psi of boost. Car still tends to break up though. Hopefully this setup takes care of that.


----------



## DJP944 (Oct 21, 2005)

alright......i had my car scanned because it threw a cel and was running really rough....i figured it was the coilpack and had it scanned and the tech confirmed it...i went ahead and sealed it with a two part epoxy and it ran good for a while and the cel even went away.....when i drove it later it started running crappy again and the check engine light is back.....i replaced the spark plugs when i sealed the coilpack too. I want to do the msd setup but is it possible that my icm is fried.....or maybe i didnt seal the coilpack as well as i thought.... what could be the issue????? and what should i do now!!!!my car has only 60k on it and i was just in the body shop for a month.....when i brought it in it was running fine, but now it is running extremely rough....!!!!!


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (DJP944)*

a cracked coilpack is junk. 
so, i would say either.

1. buy a new coilpack.
2. do this alternative with the msd stuff.


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*

Ok, got some deliveries... volvo icm, accel coils, and the 7pin plug showed up. No bracket or sparkplug wires yet (my fault, didnt ship to confirmed address so fourseasons needs to verify info). I am going to try and slam something together temporarily tonight so I can see if this works like I am thinking it will.
will keep you posted


----------



## kalare (Dec 9, 2002)

*Re: (DJP944)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DJP944* »_alright......i had my car scanned because it threw a cel and was running really rough....i figured it was the coilpack and had it scanned and the tech confirmed it...i went ahead and sealed it with a two part epoxy and it ran good for a while and the cel even went away.....when i drove it later it started running crappy again and the check engine light is back.....i replaced the spark plugs when i sealed the coilpack too. I want to do the msd setup but is it possible that my icm is fried.....or maybe i didnt seal the coilpack as well as i thought.... what could be the issue????? and what should i do now!!!!my car has only 60k on it and i was just in the body shop for a month.....when i brought it in it was running fine, but now it is running extremely rough....!!!!!

I coated my entire coilpack in JB...the ENTIRE thing and it didn't do junk. Put the msd coils in with my original ICM, and runs much better!


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (kalare)*

The JB weld fix only works on coil packs with superficial damage. Yes, many times, if the plastic is whats cracked, the JB weld can be used to prevent further moisture damage.
This is a per occasion, per coil pack, per situation fix. It worked for me for 15000 miles, and worked for many others, but eventually the coil itself can become damaged, making it useless, regardless of how many times you coat it.
I know I haven't been around, busy working








currently in : Fort Lauderdal


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (Cubix)*

I didn't have time to get anything mocked up and in the car, but I was able to make my harness with temp ends before I cut it to length. If I have time tomorrow, I will attempt to get this mocked up in the car so I can fire it








not pretty yet, but it will be heatshrinked and all that once I verify that this works and cut to length

















going to mount the icm to this aluminum block as the heatsink, and attach that to the gruven bracket


----------



## z3r03d_0ut (Nov 28, 2006)

I dunno man, looks nice and pretty to me!


----------



## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: (z3r03d_0ut)*

Can't wait to see how this works out! And are u gonna use a resistor on it? Hope it works cause it will be cheaper to get the Volve ICM instead of buying VW's expensive coilpack. 
By the way the setup looks kool. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (onebdgti)*

I'm going to try it without the resistor.. I figure it'll be a good test to see if I cook anything


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Slayer)*

that looks kick a$$


----------



## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

*Re: (Slayer)*

that is basically all you need correct?
then you can get rid of the dead weight.... ribbed bracket and even the Gruven bracket..and make it look more stock... unless you like the way the whole set up looks


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (ricardo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ricardo* »_that is basically all you need correct?
then you can get rid of the dead weight.... ribbed bracket and even the Gruven bracket..and make it look more stock... unless you like the way the whole set up looks

yea, I'm going to use the gruven bracket just so all the stuff is in the same area, but if this works out you would be able to run this stuff anywhere you wanted


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (Slayer)*

Anyone else find it amazing that this stuff is happening after 15 years of the VR6's existence?








I wish I didn't buy a new coilpack a while ago, but my ICM was dead... and this was before the new ICM mod


----------



## branicVW (Apr 4, 2002)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*

I wish i knew about this a while ago when i still had my VR6.. I would have loved to try this over the crappy stock setup.


----------



## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

*Re: (Slayer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slayer* »_
yea, I'm going to use the gruven bracket just so all the stuff is in the same area, but if this works out you would be able to run this stuff anywhere you wanted

niiice http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I rather see the coils set up like VW intended it to look like....I remember I saw a set up that way...got to find it
I guess now is more to improve on the design rather then a cheaper more reliable alternative


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (ricardo)*

ok, well I guess I won't be slapping something together tonight to test it.. I forgot that I can't use my stock vr6 wires with these coils.. needs GM ends







just thought about that on my drive home.


----------



## SlowMotion (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: (Slayer)*

Slayer you're right about that harness, it looks like crap. Now when your done testing I'll send you a nice SASE so you could send it my way.
I'm in jersey and we know about garbage








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
That is badass


----------



## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: (SlowMotion)*

Here's a pic of my setup. As u can tell I mounted them the same way the factory did. The bracket isn't very user friendly but I like the look of it.



_Modified by onebdgti at 8:37 PM 5-9-2007_


_Modified by onebdgti at 8:38 PM 5-9-2007_


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (onebdgti)*

i like the look of that too. very discrete.


----------



## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

*Re: (onebdgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *onebdgti* »_Here's a pic of my setup. As u can tell I mounted them the same way the factory did. The bracket isn't very user friendly but I like the look of it.



_Modified by onebdgti at 8:37 PM 5-9-2007_

_Modified by onebdgti at 8:38 PM 5-9-2007_

thats how I want it ...when you have a chance can you show me how you did that?..well I have a MK3 but it should be the same


----------



## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (jamesn67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesn67* »_Hey Silent! Nice to see you. Been forgetting to check your vwfixx post.



At least someone missed me.
I have been busy with the family and fabricating crap for my nitrous install.
Good to see someone using a different ICM, this just opens more doors.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (silentdub)*

his ass misses you too

















yay I finally got to drive my car which has been sitting in airport parking for a month!


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*

I'd try to rotate the coil 90* so the top row of posts runs to back & bottom row runs to the front bank (or opposite that) you'd have less wire crossing also.


----------



## Masta Flash (Feb 2, 2006)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*


----------



## Masta Flash (Feb 2, 2006)

*Re: (Masta Flash)*

slayer any news?


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (Masta Flash)*

still waiting for ups to come with my wires..







should be wednesday. I was all set to try this out but I realized that I couldnt until I had new wires with the GM ends, otherwise I would have posted if this was working already


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (Masta Flash)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Masta Flash* »_










got my gruven bracket today:


----------



## golfvr6power (May 15, 2007)

The ICM that you are using did it come from a 6 cylinder wasted spark application ?
A lot of cars use 7 pin ICMs 




_Modified by golfvr6power at 12:29 PM 5-15-2007_


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (golfvr6power)*


_Quote, originally posted by *golfvr6power* »_The ICM that you are using did it come from a 6 cylinder wasted spark application ?
A lot of cars use 7 pin ICMs

it's from a 98 volvo s90 3.0l 6cyl. are you the guy on vwfixx that posted about the haltech hecu3 icm? if so, this one that i have here should be the same piece.. just haltech relabels it as their own


----------



## z3r03d_0ut (Nov 28, 2006)

Slayer correct me if i am wrong, but you are using the remnants of the stock coil to anchor the bracket to the engine right? Not actually using it for the ICM or anything though?


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (z3r03d_0ut)*


_Quote, originally posted by *z3r03d_0ut* »_Slayer correct me if i am wrong, but you are using the remnants of the stock coil to anchor the bracket to the engine right? Not actually using it for the ICM or anything though?

yea, basically just using it for a spacer. I could use anything to make up the difference, but i already had that so i figured i'd use it


----------



## z3r03d_0ut (Nov 28, 2006)

Cool, looks good, i'm curious to hear how this works out for you.


----------



## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (Slayer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slayer* »_ I looked to try and find a "male" connector to go into the plug that our VR6 coil pack harness uses so it would be easy to make an adapter harness, but I don't think there is such a thing.. We might just have to snip that plug off and convert it to the bosch 7 pin connector

OEM VW 357 972 765








The one to the right.
The Left one corresponds to the engine harness of a 2000 VR6, therefore I'm 99% sure that the right one is what you are looking for.
Make sure that you have the old style of connector like on the pictures in the beginning of this thread.
Otherwise you like myself with the new kind of connector on their coil pack needs the 6X0 973 825 instead.
These are empty housings. Appropriate crimp/solder pins to match these connector housings is needed for a complete setup.
Old type rectangular plug.
000 979 129 for 1.5mm² wire (for 3 wires from ECU)
000 979 219 for 2.5mm² wire
For later version of housing. (with one rounded edge)
000 979 134 for 1.0mm² wire
000 979 134 A for 1.0mm² wire 
000 979 226 for 2.5mm² wire 
000 979 226 A for 2.5mm² wire 
(rubber plug 357 972 841 5,6X7,8)



_Modified by DanielT at 10:22 AM 5-16-2007_


----------



## VR6_00Jetta (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: (Slayer)*

CLEAN! OEM Looking! Please let us know what plug gap works out for you


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (DanielT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DanielT* »_OEM VW 357 972 765








The one to the right.
The Left one corresponds to the engine harness of a 2000 VR6, therefore i'm 99% sure that the right one is what you are looking for.
Make sure that you have the old style of connector like on the pictures in the beginning of this thread.
Otherwise you like myself with the new kind of connector on their coilpack needs the 6X0 973 825 instead.
These are empty housings. Appropriate crimp/solder pins to match these connector housings is needed for a complete setup.

that does in deed look like what i'm after.. i will have to call up a dealer and see if they can get that part
oh, hey did there happen to be a part number for the pin/connectors for this plug? they are slightly different than the type i had to get for the 7 pin plug (junior timer vs junior power timer)


----------



## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (Slayer)*

Sorry, they where on the same place in ETKA, I missed them.
000 979 129 for 1.5mm² wire (for 3 wires from ECU)
000 979 219 for 2.5mm² wire
For later version of housing. (with one rounded edge)
000 979 134 for 1.0mm² wire
000 979 134 A for 1.0mm² wire	
000 979 226 for 2.5mm² wire	
000 979 226 A for 2.5mm² wire	
(rubber plug 357 972 841 5,6X7,8)


----------



## Northren vr6 (May 29, 2004)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (DanielT)*

Fired up the car for the first time in 5 months ..... using the msd coils and a .7 ohm resistor off a ford mustang i beleieve.... runs AWESOME. Haven't driven it yet, but idle is rock-steady as opposed to last year ...


----------



## golfvr6power (May 15, 2007)

*Re: (Slayer)*

Slayer nice find







I am nearly set to do the MSDs, a faulty ecu was not letting the golf start we are getting closer now http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Anyone else running a vortech supercharger with the MSD coils ?







[/URL]
A pic before the MSDs


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (golfvr6power)*

Hmm, I recall some FI pics in the old post but I can't recall the exact set-up.


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

well, bad news so far.. not getting spark. I stood outside in the rain from a thunderstorm (was also tornado watch







) trying to get this going, but all it does is turn over







will mess with it some more tomorrow to see if maybe I have something crossed up


_Modified by Slayer at 6:46 PM 5-16-2007_


----------



## swim69bob (Jan 25, 2005)

*Re: (Slayer)*









this is my setup i finished a while back but had to take it off for now
i can not seem to get it running right
it runs great for about 20 miles then starts to miss bad, 
it droped cyl 6, then i switched the the coiles at the module,
swapped 1/6 with 2/5, 
did the same thing ran great, then dropped cyl 5
so i swapped out the coil with a new one, 
did the same thing, 
i am trying to find a new module to try, 
i have on a good stock coilpack, but i dont want to use it and mess it up


----------



## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (Slayer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slayer* »_well, bad news so far.. not getting spark. I stood outside in the rain from a thunderstorm (was also tornado watch







) trying to get this going, but all it does is turn over







will mess with it some more tomorrow to see if maybe I have something crossed up

Can you check your ECU for fault codes with VAG-com? Perhaps you have fault codes for your ignition pins. (open circuit?)
It might be that the Bosch/Hüco ICM version that you're using does not have internal pull-up/down resistors. The 3 ignition signals from the ECU might be "floating" at the moment. The VW oem ICM unit does have internal pull-up/down.
Someone with more recent electronic skills can verify this. I don't remember if it was pull-up or pull-down I did when I had a piggy-back ECU inline between the ECU and the ICM.


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (DanielT)*

Daniel, thanks for the info, I will check into that. It might just be a pull up resistor because it would almost seem like the icm isn't getting enough signal to actually "wake up" and complete the ground to fire the coils
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by Slayer at 10:33 PM 5-19-2007_


----------



## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (Slayer)*

Slayer:
If you have omitted the ~1ohm resistor that limits the current through the coil AND the ICM you might have blown your ICM.








The Bosch unit (Hüco too?) is rated for only 8-10 ampere. Actually that might be less than the OEM VR6 ICM.


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (DanielT)*

I almost don't think it got that far.. I never got spark, so it hadn't made a complete circuit with the coil in which it could have burned anything out


----------



## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (Slayer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slayer* »_I almost don't think it got that far.. I never got spark, so it hadn't made a complete circuit with the coil in which it could have burned anything out
Let's hope, but current is drawn as soon as the coil starts charging, you might not even get as far as to the first spark.
Exchange each coil with small bulbs, eg. 5watt and check if they light up when 5/12V is applied to the ICM.


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (DanielT)*

will dabble with this a bit more here when i get some time this week and let you guys know what happens


----------



## wideveedub (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: (Slayer)*

hello Im looking for a product to coat my cracked coilpack
Ive seen it in the other thread but dont remember 
anyone ???


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (wideveedub)*

JB weld


----------



## vdubbin4life6 (Jan 22, 2005)

can anyone find the 6 pin connector online somewhere......i went to radioshack and looked around but cant find the 6 pin connector used to wire the msd coils.....if anyone finds one or knows where to find one please let me know!!!!! thank you


----------



## DJP944 (Oct 21, 2005)

i need that 6 pin connector as well.....i went to radioshack and autozone but no luck....anyone locate it?


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (DJP944)*

6 pin connector? what are you guys plugging this into?


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (Slayer)*

Update on this (5/23/07): 
With 12v applied, it works the way it is described and it fires the coils (off the car), so i'm not sure why it metered out backwards last night when I tested it with less voltage


_Modified by Slayer at 10:11 AM 5-23-2007_


----------



## DJP944 (Oct 21, 2005)

the 6 pin connector used in the diy on the first page....if anyone can locate one please let me know


----------



## 708VR6 (May 20, 2006)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Howdy folks...because I just ordered a bracket on ebay, and will be ordering the coils very soon, I wanted to give some input on where to find just about any kind of connector needed, granted I haven't had any luck finding the connector to plug into the cars plug that goes to the ICM, but, there are plenty of other types to choose from to make your own harness if need be.
http://www.newark.com
http://www.digikey.com
http://www.mouser.com
http://www.allied.com
these are companies I deal with on an almost daily basis ordering parts for my company and you will only find top notch stuff, I'll post more companies names as I go thru the countless catalogs we have and will post pics of my progress once I get all the parts in...


----------



## o0bur (Aug 16, 2006)

I dont know if someone has asked this or not, I've skimmed through the posts, but was not able to find it.. Will this coilpack system work with stock ECU?? Thanks.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (o0bur)*


_Quote, originally posted by *o0bur* »_I dont know if someone has asked this or not, I've skimmed through the posts, but was not able to find it.. Will this coilpack system work with stock ECU?? Thanks.

Yes. No standalone needed. Basically, you're taking the coilpack, removing the coils, retaining the spacer and ICM and using coils that won't crack from MSD or another source. I'm in the middle of my swap right now, but I'm waiting to see how this newfound ICM replacement will work. It'll save me the hassle of having to make a bracket to conform to the stock CP location.
Slayer and a few others are trying to replace the ICM as well. That will be awesome when it's completed because that means we're no longer a slave to VWs crappy CP.


----------



## shapiror (Dec 12, 2005)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

I'm just about done with my setup, but i have one question. With the NGK BKR5EKUP spark plugs, should I adjust the gap at all? The package says not to, but I have no idea what the gap is on them out of the box and I want to increase it to .050" since people have had good luck with that with these coils. I decided I want to increase the gap when I installed these coil and didn't really didn't notice a difference over stock.
from what I've read, you get a better power band, more pull, and quicker RPM increase and decrease. I didn't notice any of this.
everything did fire right up and i had absolutely no problems with the install though! the only good thing I did notice is that idle is much more solid now. i used to be able to feel slight vibrations in the seat and steering wheel when the car was idling, but not anymore.


----------



## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

*Re: (shapiror)*

I think people are running cheap single electrode (is that what its called) autolites those are easy to gap the NGK dual electro are tricky to gap....


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

I'm still having trouble getting the huco ICM to work on the car...
I hooked it up to a 12v variable power supply and the huco unit DOES fire (off the car). I was able to turn the voltage down as far as the ps would go to 1.25v and it did open the circuit on the huco unit.. the thing is that it only lets .25v through, so that to me means that it needs 1v to function.
The problem is, on startup the ecu is only sending out .5v on the trigger wires, which isn't enough to cause the huco to complete the circuit and fire the coils. 
I also metered the trigger wires while I had the car running (on stock coilpack) and it was at a steady 1.4v and rose to 2.6v at 2k rpm. So.. it would seem that if I was able to get the car to at least *start*, then the huco would be able to work
I'm trying to find a way to amplify the trigger voltage on startup, or find something that requres .5v or less to actually complete the circuit


----------



## shapiror (Dec 12, 2005)

*Re: (ricardo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ricardo* »_...the NGK dual electro are tricky to gap.... 

how do you gap them? anyone that has these plugs can see that the dual electrodes do not have a flat tip like the regular single elctrodes. they are curved around the tip of the plug. how do you measure the gap between the center tip of the plug and the electrodes and how do you adjust it without damaging the tip?


----------



## 708VR6 (May 20, 2006)

*Re: (ricardo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ricardo* »_ NGK dual electro are tricky to gap.... 

multi-pronged plugs do not get gapped, they come pre-set at the factory, so don't waste your time trying to adjust the gap, you'll end up getting them wrong and most likely ruin what might of been a perfect plug


----------



## SlowMotion (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: (Slayer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slayer* »_I'm still having trouble getting the huco ICM to work on the car...
I hooked it up to a 12v variable power supply and the huco unit DOES fire (off the car). I was able to turn the voltage down as far as the ps would go to 1.25v and it did open the circuit on the huco unit.. the thing is that it only lets .25v through, so that to me means that it needs 1v to function.
The problem is, on startup the ecu is only sending out .5v on the trigger wires, which isn't enough to cause the huco to complete the circuit and fire the coils. 
I also metered the trigger wires while I had the car running (on stock coilpack) and it was at a steady 1.4v and rose to 2.6v at 2k rpm. So.. it would seem that if I was able to get the car to at least *start*, then the huco would be able to work
I'm trying to find a way to amplify the trigger voltage on startup, or find something that requres .5v or less to actually complete the circuit

anyway to find out from a Volvo owner ?
They could measure the voltage and see if it's different from the VW ecu.


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (SlowMotion)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SlowMotion* »_anyway to find out from a Volvo owner ?
They could measure the voltage and see if it's different from the VW ecu.

well, I don't know anyone with a volvo.. let alone one that would actually have this unit


----------



## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (Slayer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slayer* »_I hooked it up to a 12v variable power supply and the huco unit DOES fire (off the car). I was able to turn the voltage down as far as the ps would go to 1.25v and it did open the circuit on the huco unit.. the thing is that it only lets .25v through, so that to me means that it needs 1v to function.
The problem is, on startup the ecu is only sending out .5v on the trigger wires, which isn't enough to cause the huco to complete the circuit and fire the coils. 
I also metered the trigger wires while I had the car running (on stock coilpack) and it was at a steady 1.4v and rose to 2.6v at 2k rpm. So.. it would seem that if I was able to get the car to at least *start*, then the huco would be able to work
I'm trying to find a way to amplify the trigger voltage on startup, or find something that requres .5v or less to actually complete the circuit

Unfortunately I think you've got it completely wrong. It seems that you've measured the voltage with a multimeter, right?
You have to use an oscilloscope to be able to see what the voltage from the ECU is.
Otherwise you will only see how the duty cycle change with RPM, higher RPMs will give you higher voltage when you use a multimeter.
Most likely to happen is: The higher RPMs you have the closer to 5V you will get on the multimeter.
In reality the voltage of the ECU output signal is 5V regardless of RPM. I think we can be quite certain that the ecu output +5V.


----------



## 708VR6 (May 20, 2006)

*Re: (DanielT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DanielT* »_
Unfortunately I think you've got it completely wrong. It seems that you've measured the voltage with a multimeter, right?
You have to use an oscilloscope to be able to see what the voltage from the ECU is.
Otherwise you will only see how the duty cycle change with RPM, higher RPMs will give you higher voltage when you use a multimeter.
Most likely to happen is: The higher RPMs you have the closer to 5V you will get on the multimeter.
In reality the voltage of the ECU output signal is 5V regardless of RPM. I think we can be quite certain that the ecu output +5V.

you just got me thinking, wouldn't the meters higher impedance cause all kinds of screwy things to happen? not to mention damage certain components, where as a o-scope would be the better and safer alternative?


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (DanielT)*

DanielT:
That could definitely be.. unfortunately I don't have an oscilloscope to play around with. so the voltage should always be 5v like was said in the beginning of the thread (and I repeated after)?


----------



## o0bur (Aug 16, 2006)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

Thanks, I'll get started on it!







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VR6_00Jetta (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: (shapiror)*

How to gap your NGK BKR5EKUP Plugs (The definitive answer)
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1458763
Everything you need to know


----------



## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (Slayer)*

Slayer:
I measured 390ohm from pin1 to pin2,3,4 on the VR6 ICM.
It seems that there are 3 pull down resistors (390ohm) integrated in the VR6 ICM.
Check your Hüco, measure from pin1 to each of the 2,3 & 4. If you get a value of several kohm then this is probably why it doesn't work for you yet. Let's hope that your parts are still in working condition.
While you are at it, measure 2,3 & 4 against pin 5 too.
If you get a value below 1000ohm from pin 5 to the driver pins then the Hüco might differ more than we think from the VR6 ICM.
Disclaimer:
I cannot guarantee that you won't destroy all your parts. But If I had a non-working Hüco ICM in my car today, I would have tried to put a 390ohm resistor from each of the 2,3 & 4 pins to pin1 (GND).
Remember that anything that is not done correctly can potentially damage ICM AND/OR Coils.
470ohm resistors will probably also work.


_Modified by DanielT at 8:26 PM 5-24-2007_


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (DanielT)*

I tested the icm itself and I get ~320&#8486 between GND (pin4) and pins 2,5,7 (trigger input)
I cant really test the pin5(12v) pin to the trigger inputs on the huco because it doesnt use 12v in.. its powered by the trigger voltage only


----------



## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (Slayer)*

Not good, it seems to be similar but still it doesn't work for you.
Sorry, as you understood, the pin numbers I was refering to was the VR6 ICM.
You are correct, I forgot that the Hüco doesn't have a power line.


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (DanielT)*

i'm going to try adding a resistor like you suggested to see if anything changes


----------



## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (Slayer)*

Since you allready have 320ohm I don't think you should need or have any more resistors.


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (DanielT)*

I'm just going to try and get it to 390&#8486 by adding 70&#8486 to it.. that shouldnt kill anything. I know its not much of a difference, but I'm willing to try anything at this point


----------



## beenana (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (708VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *708VR6* »_
you just got me thinking, wouldn't the meters higher impedance cause all kinds of screwy things to happen? not to mention damage certain components, where as a o-scope would be the better and safer alternative?

good thought process, wrong hypothesis.. the high impedance of the meter is what prevents it from doing damage to circuitry/components.. a high input impedance on a meter means extremely low current draw, which equates to virtually no change in the circuit/component being measured.. which is a good thing because you don't want the thing you're using to measure something else change the result..


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (beenana)*

It's the old analog meters that you've got to be careful with, right?


----------



## o0bur (Aug 16, 2006)

Well I hope to god that I can get this coil pack to work, cause I already ordered them lol..


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (o0bur)*

sorry I kind of disappeared
been really busy with work and life


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (o0bur)*


_Quote, originally posted by *o0bur* »_Well I hope to god that I can get this coil pack to work, cause I already ordered them lol..
 
edit- if you ordered a huco icm I would probably send it back without opening it.. or be prepared for doing some experimenting


_Modified by Slayer at 10:24 AM 5-25-2007_


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (Slayer)*

Did you mean the Huco icm replacement or just the general MSD coils?


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (jamesn67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesn67* »_Did you mean the Huco icm replacement or just the general MSD coils?

sorry, I meant the icm.. I edited my post so its more specific


----------



## 708VR6 (May 20, 2006)

*Re: (beenana)*


_Quote, originally posted by *beenana* »_
good thought process, wrong hypothesis.. the high impedance of the meter is what prevents it from doing damage to circuitry/components.. a high input impedance on a meter means extremely low current draw, which equates to virtually no change in the circuit/component being measured.. which is a good thing because you don't want the thing you're using to measure something else change the result..



posted a stupid question...got my "thought process" mixed up when I read the post on here and confused it with an article I read here at work about someone using a test light on some sensitive equipment and toasting the sensors they were testing, for some reason I posted my question which after reading it again makes zero sense to me, thanks for rectifying my dumbness, I need a beer


----------



## Northren vr6 (May 29, 2004)

*Re: (708VR6)*

Well got the car out for the first honk of the year. Using the msd coils, 8.5mm wires, .7 ohm ballast resistor, and the factory ICM. Absolutley 0 problems. Idles wayy better then last year (factory coilpack). Intermittant missfires are gone, but that could of been crap bosch replacement wires. Plugs are at stock gap for the time being. Pic fer views.


----------



## beenana (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (708VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *708VR6* »_

posted a stupid question...got my "thought process" mixed up when I read the post on here and confused it with an article I read here at work about someone using a test light on some sensitive equipment and toasting the sensors they were testing, for some reason I posted my question which after reading it again makes zero sense to me, thanks for rectifying my dumbness, I need a beer





































those old incandescant bulb style cheapo test lights are good for cars without computers, or if you know which wire goes where, and you're certain you're not going to fry anything.. the test lights with an LED in them are a different story.. they don't(shouldn't) draw enough current to fry anything..


----------



## 708VR6 (May 20, 2006)

*Re: (beenana)*


_Quote, originally posted by *beenana* »_
those old incandescant bulb style cheapo test lights are good for cars without computers, or if you know which wire goes where, and you're certain you're not going to fry anything.. the test lights with an LED in them are a different story.. they don't(shouldn't) draw enough current to fry anything..









you're right, I just wasn't thinking correctly when I posted the original question...being under the weather didn't help me out either, but, it's all good, thanks


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

Mine's done too. MSD coils straight to DTA P8Pro with no ballast resistor.
Absolutely perfect. 1 hour's driving in torrential rain with no misfires at any rpm or load.
The idle quality compared to the stock pack is MASSIVELY better, as is the low rpm pick up.
On boost, initial pick up is about the same, but I've got a super fast spooling GT3071R so it's hard to say as that thing is kicking butt from 2500rpm. On boost past 4500rpm, it is HUGELY better. The torque used to fluctuate a little pulling hard, but now it flicks round to the limiter super strong and fast.
I'm running Schimmel 8mm leads, Brisk D12S silver plugs with stock gap and a dwell time of 2500ms.
I can run up to 9000ms dwell, but MSD tell me 2000-2500 is best, so I'll keep it there for reliability.


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (kevhayward)*

kev,
do you mean 2-2.5ms? 2000/2500ms would = 2-2.5sec i believe


----------



## DJP944 (Oct 21, 2005)

*Re: (Slayer)*

alright im a little confused....
i am working on my harness as we speak and i just dont think i know exactly how this works....








^^^^alright the light blue wire that is in series with the 1 ohm resistor- is that somehow connected with the red, white and blue wires or are they just connected to each post individually and just taped together with the light blue wire and then connected to each corresponding coil?????








^^^^^^^^ALSO- DO I NEED THE 6 PIN connector in the picture or can i just wire everything up directly? or maybe with male-female disconnects for each individual coil....








^^^^^^LASTLY- the green, brown, and yellow wires- are they just spliced together to the light blue wire????

THANK YOU IN ADVANCE IF YOU CAN HELP ME OUT


----------



## shapiror (Dec 12, 2005)

Just out of curiosity, what plugs are you guys using with the MSD setup? Since you can get better performance from increasing the gap, i assume you are not using the stock plugs with the dual electrodes, correct?
I was thinking of going with the NGK Iridium IX (BKR5EIX).


----------



## DJP944 (Oct 21, 2005)

bump


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (DJP944)*

DJP944:
you don't have to have an actual plug, you can just splice the stuff together. just make sure you do a nice job.. no hack job.
as far as wiring goes, do it like this:
+12v goes to all 3 coils (same side r or l) and it doesnt matter if you splice all 3 to one wire, or run one, and then daisy chain it.
the 3 coil wires get run to the coils from the icm. its pretty simple


----------



## bjettin (May 4, 2001)

*Re: (Slayer)*

has anyone done this diy using the #8870 interface module yet?


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (bjettin)*

Yes, read through the post. It's close to the first few pages or so.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (DJP944)*

DJP944:
3 wires (brown, green and yellow) are spliced together on the other side, these are the 12v+
You don't NEED a harness but with all my spade connectors, they came in handy today!!!
So I'm driving home and all of a sudden my engine loses power. Pull over, crank crank crank, nothing.
With some quick thinking, I say, maybe it's the resistor. And, because of the way I wired it, I was easily able to pull out the resistor, and bypass it in such a way that it's still a water tight usable connection.
The resistor smelled like hell and the E tape was all burnt up. Pulled it out, reconnected the spades and off I went, no problems, no tools, <5 minutes to fix on the side of the road

No idea why it blew the resistor, I'm thinking heat fatigue.


----------



## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_The resistor smelled like hell and the E tape was all burnt up.
...
No idea why it blew the resistor, I'm thinking heat fatigue.









10W 
And where should the heat go when you wrap it up in tape?


----------



## VR6_00Jetta (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Hey, Cubix: I think you're using 12-gauge wire in your setup. Do you, or Anyone, know of any reason's why I couldn't use 14-gauge? I think that's what Silentdub started this with. I'd prefer 12, but I'd also like to wire the "+" in series and the connection of 2 x 12-gauge to a single spade is huge - I'm not sure just how much more Dremel'ing to the MSD I can get away with for a larger spade connector ("measure twice, cut once.") 12-gauge does seem... prudent for this ignition, though. Opinions appreciated...
Thanks.


_Modified by VR6_00Jetta at 11:46 PM 5-29-2007_


----------



## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (VR6_00Jetta)*

Put them in parallell from the resistor to the coils! Why use dremel at all?


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (DanielT)*

I just replaced my beru plugs with NGK cheapo V-power plugs and I gapped them at .050". It runs great and there are no misfires!


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: (Slayer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slayer* »_kev,
do you mean 2-2.5ms? 2000/2500ms would = 2-2.5sec i believe

Sorry, yes I meant 2500 micro seconds, but couldn't figure out how to do the little backwards "u" sign








Anyway, here's my install - 








I was going to use the 8870 bases as they're very neat and makes coil changes easier, but they're too bulky for my application. They might work if I flipped the bracket upside down though.
I like the way they are spaced away from the head, so less susceptible to heat soak, which is probably what kills the VW coilpack. 











_Modified by kevhayward at 3:18 AM 5-30-2007_


----------



## 708VR6 (May 20, 2006)

*Re: (kevhayward)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevhayward* »_








_Modified by kevhayward at 3:18 AM 5-30-2007_

I'm curious as to why you have dielectric putty on the bottom of the coils? That is dielectric putty, right?


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (708VR6)*

Looks like silicone or some other sealant to me.


----------



## o0bur (Aug 16, 2006)

Just picked up my coils today - if you guys got this working, then I'm determined to get it working for me too








- So after all this crazyness you guys have got going, have you determined a better construction - as in resistors needed and whatnot for this?? Or is the DIY on the first page still good??
Thanks.


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

That's not dilectric putty. It's a non-setting, mallable, rubbery mastic for bodywork trims and plastics. Bit like "BluTak" on steroids. I used it to stop the spade terminals from shaking out and to seal them from water.
I ran a bit round the front of the bases just in case water crept underneath, but it seems these MSDs are water resistant anyway. Some GM style coils are not.
o0bur, there's still no definitive answer. This isn't a fully proven conversion yet, although I think one member has covered 50,000km with his so far (no resistor). We need a lot more people doing those kind of mileages really.
The only thing I know for definite is that if you use an aftermarket ECU, you don't need the resistor. 
There's something about the VW ICM that doesn't work well with the coils, whether it be too much current, too much dwell, who knows.....
Give it a try, it's the only way to find out for sure what will work in your application.


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (kevhayward)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevhayward* »_
Sorry, yes I meant 2500 micro seconds, but couldn't figure out how to do the little backwards "u" sign








Anyway, here's my install - 








I was going to use the 8870 bases as they're very neat and makes coil changes easier, but they're too bulky for my application. They might work if I flipped the bracket upside down though.
I like the way they are spaced away from the head, so less susceptible to heat soak, which is probably what kills the VW coilpack. 








_Modified by kevhayward at 3:18 AM 5-30-2007_

Meant to say your install/engine bay look great!!!
Is that a BMC intake hiding on the pass side? 
I just got one of those and need to install it myself.


----------



## swim69bob (Jan 25, 2005)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

has anybody tried these, looks like it woudl make the install a little easier and also with the wiring, i was thinking about getting them when i get some extra money
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...ZWD1V


_Modified by swim69bob at 8:46 AM 5-31-2007_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (swim69bob)*

I'm @ 9000 miles with resistor
1000 without


----------



## o0bur (Aug 16, 2006)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_I'm @ 9000 miles with resistor
1000 without

I'll be doing my install soon, I'll keep you guys updated with my progress... Just having a hard time finding a 1 ohm resistor..


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (o0bur)*

jegs or summit racing carry an MSD Ballast resistor.

And to those who used the MSD wires with the MSD Logo ends...
what's the trick for getting the wire through the end before crimoing???
I can't quite get it out the bottom.


----------



## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

First, you crimp the end then use some dilectric grease and slide the crimped end into the boot. It's a little hard but it works.


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (onebdgti)*

Yes, I see what you mean. Right after I wrote that post I realized you
can crimp first then just slid it in. Thanks!


----------



## shapiror (Dec 12, 2005)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

Just as an FYI:
I have an '01 Jetta GLX w/ the 12v VR6. I installed the NGK Laser Platinum (BKR5EKUP ) plugs with the MSD coils and 8mm racing wires. I increased the gap to .050" and the car ran like absolute crap. It was missing and backfiring and I couldn't get the RPMs over 1500 without a miss. So, I moved the gap to .040". It seemed to be doing better, but when I was really driving the car with some spirit, you could still feel some hesitance and sputtering.
Soooo... I decided to buy the cheap NGK V-Power (BKR5E) plugs. It was the difference between $12 plugs and $1.50 plugs. Surprisingly, the V-Power plugs performed AMAZINGLY. I set the gap at about .042-.043" with a standard round spark plugs gap tool. I say that gap measurement because it was right in between .040" and .045".
In the end, the RPM climb and decent are MUCH smoother and quicker. The idle is rock solid and when I'm really trying to get somewhere, that engine has never sounded better. I highly recommend you don't waste your money on the high dollar Laser Platinum plugs and just stick with the cheap ones.


----------



## jonesyGT (Jan 24, 2007)

Hi Guys
Been following this thread for a while
Im now convinced that this is the way to go with my car as the coil pack is on its way out. Minor cracks etc.
What I would like is to order the bracket & leads but I dont think they are available to be sent to Australia.
Can anyone supply a company that will post OS & maybe a price?
I can get the GM coil packs here for a reasonable price but would like the bracket as well as it looks the goods.
Id rather use it & know it works as you all seem to have had no problems than making up my own as an unknown.
If anyone could let me know if theyll send OS it would be much appreciated
Cheers
Mark


----------



## shapiror (Dec 12, 2005)

*Re: (jonesyGT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jonesyGT* »_Hi Guys
Been following this thread for a while
Im now convinced that this is the way to go with my car as the coil pack is on its way out. Minor cracks etc.
What I would like is to order the bracket & leads but I dont think they are available to be sent to Australia.
Can anyone supply a company that will post OS & maybe a price?
I can get the GM coil packs here for a reasonable price but would like the bracket as well as it looks the goods.
Id rather use it & know it works as you all seem to have had no problems than making up my own as an unknown.
If anyone could let me know if theyll send OS it would be much appreciated
Cheers
Mark 

email Four Season Tuning at [email protected]


----------



## porksoda (Jun 3, 2004)

*Re: (shapiror)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shapiror* »_Just as an FYI:
I have an '01 Jetta GLX w/ the 12v VR6. I installed the NGK Laser Platinum (BKR5EKUP ) plugs with the MSD coils and 8mm racing wires. I increased the gap to .050" and the car ran like absolute crap. It was missing and backfiring and I couldn't get the RPMs over 1500 without a miss. So, I moved the gap to .040". It seemed to be doing better, but when I was really driving the car with some spirit, you could still feel some hesitance and sputtering.
Soooo... I decided to buy the cheap NGK V-Power (BKR5E) plugs. It was the difference between $12 plugs and $1.50 plugs. Surprisingly, the V-Power plugs performed AMAZINGLY. I set the gap at about .042-.043" with a standard round spark plugs gap tool. I say that gap measurement because it was right in between .040" and .045".
In the end, the RPM climb and decent are MUCH smoother and quicker. The idle is rock solid and when I'm really trying to get somewhere, that engine has never sounded better. I highly recommend you don't waste your money on the high dollar Laser Platinum plugs and just stick with the cheap ones.

Weird.
I am not running the MSD setup but i have used both the basic v power and laser platinum on stock coilpack i find the laser platinum to be a bit smoother... but i DID NOT have such a drastic result as you... i guess maybe with the MSD coils you gotta use bottom barrel plugs and just swap em every 20k or so...


----------



## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

You think gapping makes a big difference, wait until you increase the ignition advance to take full advantage of it


----------



## shapiror (Dec 12, 2005)

*Re: (porksoda)*


_Quote, originally posted by *porksoda* »_
Weird.
I am not running the MSD setup but i have used both the basic v power and laser platinum on stock coilpack i find the laser platinum to be a bit smoother... but i DID NOT have such a drastic result as you... i guess maybe with the MSD coils you gotta use bottom barrel plugs and just swap em every 20k or so...


that was the plan. they might not last as long, but they're a he|| of a lot cheaper! $12 = http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif $1.50 = http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## SlowMotion (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: (shapiror)*

Any updates from the new icu ?


----------



## Northren vr6 (May 29, 2004)

*Re: (SlowMotion)*

Update: 3000 km Road trip no problem. logged about 3200km on this setup so far.


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (SlowMotion)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SlowMotion* »_Any updates from the new icu ?
 nothing yet.. I havent had much time to play around with it lately


----------



## MaSeDoGG (Jan 22, 2004)

i want to do this, but i'm still hesitant b/c of my wiring abilities...
also: to the guys that have done this, how much TOTAL does this whole deal cost? $150 in coils?
$80 bracket, $100 wires, $30 plugs?, icm(i've already got 2 from 2 f'd coilpacks, but they might be faulty as well)? wiring? resistor? (anything else??)


----------



## VR6TUNER (May 2, 2000)

*Re: (MaSeDoGG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MaSeDoGG* »_i want to do this, but i'm still hesitant b/c of my wiring abilities...
also: to the guys that have done this, how much TOTAL does this whole deal cost? $150 in coils?
$80 bracket, $100 wires, $30 plugs?, icm(i've already got 2 from 2 f'd coilpacks, but they might be faulty as well)? wiring? resistor? (anything else??)

X2


----------



## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

*Re: (MaSeDoGG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MaSeDoGG* »_i want to do this, but i'm still hesitant b/c of my wiring abilities...
also: to the guys that have done this, how much TOTAL does this whole deal cost? $150 in coils?
$80 bracket, $100 wires, $30 plugs?, icm(i've already got 2 from 2 f'd coilpacks, but they might be faulty as well)? wiring? resistor? (anything else??)

you see, this started as a cheaper alternative to the coilpack..you could have actually done it cheaper than a coilpack
create your own bracket ($25-50?), buy some universal plug cables ($30 ebay) coils ($70) and cheap autolites ($15)
but now it has become a better than a OEM but almost if not more expensive.....but i believe its worth it due to all the testimonials


----------



## bwolfgti (Oct 29, 2002)

*Re: (ricardo)*

bracket-$54.90
wires-$70 (Cubix sold me his used ones)
coils-$133 
wiring,resistor,connectors,etc.-$15
















plus the spade connectors can't come loose from the coils using this setup. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (bwolfgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bwolfgti* »_bracket-$54.90
wires-$70 (Cubix sold me his used ones)
coils-$133 
wiring,resistor,connectors,etc.-$15


Because a major complaint of the OEM piece was price, I have to mention that the stock CP costs about 225-250 vs this 270+ (way + if those are used wires more near 300 with new wires, 250-ish with homemade bracket)
I understand the differences, but people that may have been excited about switching thinking it's a big money saver should know this. I think the development here is awesome, BTW.


----------



## bwolfgti (Oct 29, 2002)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*

Yea probably not going to save alot of money but for smoother revs and idle, not to mention more reliable (hopefully) it will be worth it in the end. At least if one coil goes bad it only costs $40 to replace than $200+ for the stock coil. I would say initial cost is higher but hopefully will be cheaper and better in the long run. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## shapiror (Dec 12, 2005)

*Re: (kevhayward)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevhayward* »_You think gapping makes a big difference, wait until you increase the ignition advance to take full advantage of it










you got me curious now... how do increase the ignition advance, and what exactly does that do? i dont know a whole about this ignition, but i'm learning a lot as i go.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (shapiror)*

Chime.....
It's true, in total doing this set up can be more expensive then the OE set up. But the fact that I don't need to worry about replacing the full coil again is pretty cool, but it has awesome show off points!

Like usual, I haven't been on here because my life has well.... turned to crap. Seems like I can't balance between professional and relationship, now professional is way up, and relationship is way trash (I blame her because she dissed my car on multiple occasions.

Currently I'm still running without a resistor in place. 1800 miles in 4 days with 3 tickets and its nice. I beleive the resisitor died because of heat, it was crazy hot, I had it wrapped in electrical tape w/ no heatsink, and I was driving pretty hard.
I'm liking the ICM info, and I'll start looking into it.

*People who are sure about their wiring abilities* 
Hit me up on AIM @ Cubixy2k, we'll work hand in hand on the condition that you
-Take video or supplemental photos
-I can add our conversations to the front page as relevant to helping others.
If you are in the philly area, give me a shout we can work on it together!


----------



## all-starr-me (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*

Can't you just crimp new GM connectors on your old wires and save $100? Napa has new wire sets for $45, so how much are just the GM ends?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (all-starr-me)*

2 MSD ends are about 6 bucks on ebay
You might be able to crimp them on the old wires, if you have enough slack.
Worth a try if you have the parts and don't mind sacrificing the time/money/material


----------



## poopooplatter (Jan 15, 2005)

*Re:*

I just thought i'd post in here because this setup absolutley RULES.
Smoother powerband & awesome response.
And with my torbo setup (now with my plugs gapped at .044) i never SPUTTER anymore!!!!!!!


















_Modified by poopooplatter at 5:56 AM 6-13-2007_


----------



## swim69bob (Jan 25, 2005)

*Re: (all-starr-me)*


_Quote, originally posted by *all-starr-me* »_Can't you just crimp new GM connectors on your old wires and save $100? Napa has new wire sets for $45, so how much are just the GM ends?

o bought a pack of 9 msd end boots, and 90 degree terminals from summitt for like 25 bucks shipped


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (swim69bob)*









I really like this setup, however, I'm a little worried abut the resistor. It needs to dissipate heat and when it's wrapped up in tape, it can't do it.


----------



## bwolfgti (Oct 29, 2002)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

Thanks. Hopefully it will stay cool, i shouldn't have wrapped it in tape so much maybe. Anyways got it in the car today and it definitely makes a difference at idle and when under boost, definitely smoother. Gotta shorten the plug wires though.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (bwolfgti)*

Yea, I wrapped mine completely in tape and eventually it burned itself out on a really hot day


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (Cubix)*

For what it's worth, I believe Cubix used the radio shack resistor.
The MSD or Accel resistors are much larger and can therfore handle
more heat, but def. don't wrap it either way.


_Modified by jamesn67 at 10:06 PM 6-13-2007_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

Thats correct, I am using the Radio Shack resistor
BTW, I'm selling my car, hit me up for info
Time to get started on jetta the third
edit:
er... was using the radio shack resistor
still not using one
3200 mi+


----------



## mwr02jetta (Dec 30, 2005)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Ive been following this since the original thread. We had a CEL last week. VW dealer tells us we need another coilpack and wires (at $900)!
This will be the cars 4th set if we replace it: original/factory, 2nd set at 38K miles (under warranty), 3rd set at 54K miles (only 14 months after 2nd set!, got 50 percent back from VWoA after some fighting), and now we have 79K miles and only 18 months on the current (3rd) set. Dealer says misfire willl ruin the Cat Cons. 
Im not sure Im ready to go for a complete aftermarket solution but am looking to less expensive alternatives to the dealer. Im sure I can R/R the coil and wires myself. Ive been looking online and found several places that list the coil (VW 021 905 106 C) and wires (VW 021 905 430 DA thru DF). Im not sure if there is a VW part number for a wire set? Id like some feedback on an ad I saw at Ebay for the coil and wires - Im not sure if I posted the link if that violates the thread rules. Please let me know.
Thanks,
Paul


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (mwr02jetta)*

First of all, 900 is ridiculous
You can get OE wires from Fourseasontuning.com and a coil pack (OE) from Rennen.us, that'll be about ~350
I can't see why you'd need to replace it so often, thats pretty crazy.
Find someone in your area to scan your car. and don't take it to that deal again. I mean, if you are replacing with OE, you can do it in all of 30 minutes with 1 allen key and the spark plug wire remover, anyone can do it, seriously.
If your coil is blowing so much, maybe its time to do this alternative


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (Cubix)*

When the same part breaks over and over....IT'S NOT THE PARTS FAULT....that dealer should be figuring out what is causing the coil to break...not just replacing it...


----------



## PunaVr6(Haole) (Sep 8, 2005)

*Re: (mwr02jetta)*

$900?!








are they replacing your wires too every time? if they are your getting definitely screwed cause wires dont fry like that even if your coil blows. one of my vr has 95k and factory wires were perfect while its coilpack was disintegrated with peices of it chipping off.
I even question your coil blowing that frequently. I know they are ****ty but one of my vrs has the stock coil at 90k and it still goes. I had to jb weld some cracks tho. there must be something electrical causing your ICM on the coils to blow or something like that....


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevwithoutacorrado* »_When the same part breaks over and over....IT'S NOT THE PARTS FAULT....that dealer should be figuring out what is causing the coil to break...not just replacing it...









x2.
that is not a coil issue. its something else. plugs perhaps?


----------



## mwr02jetta (Dec 30, 2005)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_First of all, 900 is ridiculous
You can get OE wires from Fourseasontuning.com and a coil pack (OE) from Rennen.us, that'll be about ~350
I can't see why you'd need to replace it so often, thats pretty crazy.
Find someone in your area to scan your car. and don't take it to that deal again. I mean, if you are replacing with OE, you can do it in all of 30 minutes with 1 allen key and the spark plug wire remover, anyone can do it, seriously.
If your coil is blowing so much, maybe its time to do this alternative









Thanks for the reply. We know the dealer is ripping us off but they are ALL crooks. That is how they make a ton of $$$. They just built a brand new building for their dealership. Taj Mahal. We know we are paying for it. They say the CEL we had was the misfire code and that the coil is cracked and arcing. Its my wifes car and its not that she will not allow me to install an aftermarket setup, its that I do not feel comfortable with her driving a car in the city (Boston) with a setup that is not stock and may or may not be reliable...
So I feel the best alternative is to R/R the parts myself using stock replacements and shop for best price. Did I read somewhere that to R/R the coil I need to remove the battery cover and thats a PITA? Also why would I need a spark plug wire remover - the wires we have have the little handles on them.
Perhaps this is a question for the moderator:
I found an 'OEM' coil (Beru) and wire set (Bremi) listing on Ebay for $319 shipped - can I post a link to it for feedback?
Thanks,
Paul


_Modified by mwr02jetta at 11:40 PM 6-14-2007_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (mwr02jetta)*

Best thing to do would probably start up a new thread so we can keep this one on topic.
You can PM me the link, and I'll tell you about the auction


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (mwr02jetta)*

And for what it's worth, several companies won't stock the Beru coil pack because of failure issues.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

Really?
I thought Beru was one of the better quality coils


----------



## leftme2002 (Mar 28, 2004)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Just a warning to everyone, make sure you wrap/heatshrink the terminals coming out of the ICM. Mine rubbed against the bracket (took a couple of weeks to wear off the powder coating) and shorted one of the outputs to +12V and killed my ICM. Got a used ICM and it's working again.
Next step, regapping the plugs.
Clayton


----------



## mwr02jetta (Dec 30, 2005)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Ok,
At this point we have pretty much decided to replace only the coil. I still need to know if I need to remove the battery box to get the coil out. Do I need to remove anything else?
One more sort of off topic question: Who actually is the manufacturer of the stock VW coil? Ive dissassebled one that was replaced at the dealer (I had requested the VW dealer to give it to me). There are three main parts: the coil(pack) itself, a cast aluminum spacer, and the IDM. There is also a small plastic 'cover' over the terminals between the IDM and the coil. The coil has 'BERU' molded onto the bottom of it, the IDM has 'TELEFUNKEN eletronic' molded into the top of it, and the little plascic cover has 'TEMIC' and the part number '021 905 106C' molded on the outside and 'BERU' molded on the inside. I know 021 905 106C is the VW part number for the entire 'coilpack' assembly.
Based on the 'BERU' marking next to the main part number (on the plastic cover) I would say that BERU is the manufacturer, but who is 'TEMIC' and 'TELEFUNKEN electronic'?
Ill bet when I buy the 'Beru' part the only difference from the VW part will be that the little plastic cover does not have the VW part number on it. That and the fact that the VW dealer gets $530 for the part and I can buy the BERU part for $249 shipped.
Thanks,
Paul


----------



## bwolfgti (Oct 29, 2002)

*Re: (mwr02jetta)*

No you don't have to remove the battery box. Just the plastic engine cover over the coil pack and then only 4 screws holding the coilpack to the motor. It is real easy to do and can be done in 20 minutes or so.
Keep your old icm. you can sell that to someone on the vortex im sure.


----------



## mwr02jetta (Dec 30, 2005)

*Re: (bwolfgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bwolfgti* »_No you don't have to remove the battery box. Just the plastic engine cover over the coil pack and then only 4 screws holding the coilpack to the motor. It is real easy to do and can be done in 20 minutes or so.
Keep your old icm. you can sell that to someone on the vortex im sure.

Thanks,
And after I replace this coil I will have TWO old ICMs.
Paul


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (leftme2002)*

So yours was one that was made out of steel?


----------



## leftme2002 (Mar 28, 2004)

*Re: (VRdublove)*

Aluminum, it's the one from 4seasonstuning. I should have used heat shrink the first time, I know better.
Clayton


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (leftme2002)*

Yeah, I also coverd my bracket with the plasti-dip spray stuff as an
extra precaution.


----------



## mwr02jetta (Dec 30, 2005)

*Re: (bwolfgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bwolfgti* »_No you don't have to remove the battery box. Just the plastic engine cover over the coil pack and then only 4 screws holding the coilpack to the motor. It is real easy to do and can be done in 20 minutes or so.


Do I need to remove the entire engine cover (covers?) or can I just remove the part over the coil?
Thanks
Paul


----------



## bwolfgti (Oct 29, 2002)

*Re: (mwr02jetta)*

you will have to remove the cover that is nearest the throttle body and the center cover that says dohc vr6 on it along with the one covering the coil. I think it is only 3 screws that hold them all on.


----------



## Shikaroka (Dec 12, 2002)

*Re: (bwolfgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bwolfgti* »_you will have to remove the cover that is nearest the throttle body and the center cover that says dohc vr6 on it along with the one covering the coil. I think it is only 3 screws that hold them all on.

I think you may be thinking about a MKIII.
MKIVs have 3 plastic cover peices. You will have to remove all of them, but it's easy. The small on on the passenger side and the small one with the "VW" symbol hold down the main one in the middle. And, you'll have to remove that main one to get to the coil pack.


----------



## mwr02jetta (Dec 30, 2005)

*Re: (Shikaroka)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Shikaroka* »_
I think you may be thinking about a MKIII.
MKIVs have 3 plastic cover peices. You will have to remove all of them, but it's easy. The small on on the passenger side and the small one with the "VW" symbol hold down the main one in the middle. And, you'll have to remove that main one to get to the coil pack.

Thanks,
I found a DIY that showed that you need to remove those covers to change the spark plugs too. Is that right?:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1792683
Paul


----------



## Shikaroka (Dec 12, 2002)

*Re: (mwr02jetta)*

Pretty good DIY, but I don't really think you need to remove the covers to change the spark plugs.


----------



## vr6freak (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: (Shikaroka)*









whos car is this? or anyone else running this coil pack


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (vr6freak)*

Thats the GM coilpack
should be discussed early in the thread


----------



## 708VR6 (May 20, 2006)

*Re: (Cubix)*

magnavox coilpack used on grand nationals to be more specific, and a few other fwd buicks as well


_Modified by 708VR6 at 1:22 PM 6-21-2007_


----------



## vr6freak (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: (708VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *708VR6* »_magnavox coilpack used on grand nationals to be more specific, and a few other fdw buicks as well

right i just received mine.
the wiring looks as if it will need to be different than regular msd packs.


----------



## 708VR6 (May 20, 2006)

*Re: (vr6freak)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6freak* »_
right i just received mine.
the wiring looks as if it will need to be different than regular msd packs.

I could kick myself, some lady was selling a brand new one on ebay for $10 and I passed on it...














oh well maybe next time


----------



## DJP944 (Oct 21, 2005)

Thanks to all who have helped me with this swap. Heres some pics of my setup.



























_Modified by DJP944 at 6:23 PM 6-21-2007_


----------



## 708VR6 (May 20, 2006)

*Re: (DJP944)*

how bout some feedback? how does she run now?


----------



## DJP944 (Oct 21, 2005)

she runs like a beast- aka ferrari f50....nah hahah but the spark timing is perfect gapped at .40


----------



## 708VR6 (May 20, 2006)

*Re: (DJP944)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DJP944* »_she runs like a beast- aka ferrari f50....nah hahah but the spark timing is perfect gapped at .40

sweet..oh wait! wheres the biga$$ wing?


----------



## sinisterh22a (Oct 9, 2003)

*Re: (vr6freak)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6freak* »_








whos car is this? or anyone else running this coil pack 

looks like the accel one to me


----------



## 708VR6 (May 20, 2006)

*Re: (sinisterh22a)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sinisterh22a* »_
looks like the accel one to me

accel & stock look identical, still a magnavox style coilpack


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (vr6freak)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6freak* »_








whos car is this? or anyone else running this coil pack 

looks like herbehop's car.
he is a moderator on here.
TONS OF POWER
its an accel pack from a buick grand national. he said it works great.


----------



## all-starr-me (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jhayesvw* »_looks like herbehop's car.
he is a moderator on here.
TONS OF POWER
its an accel pack from a buick grand national. he said it works great.

I want to do one like that but need to know how to wire it up.


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (all-starr-me)*

It's basically the same wiring as the MSD's.


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jhayesvw* »_looks like herbehop's car.
he is a moderator on here.
TONS OF POWER
its an accel pack from a buick grand national. he said it works great.


That is Surfer Jon's car. Another Sleeper's Built car. (They buillt Herbehop's
car)
Its an early '99 Mk4 Black Jetta.
Running NGK Iridium 9 plugs gapped at .030".
This car sees 24-28psi boost everytime it goes on the road.
2 years boosted, head spacer only.

-Jeff


----------



## vr6freak (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: (all-starr-me)*


_Quote, originally posted by *all-starr-me* »_
I want to do one like that but need to know how to wire it up.

i'll have mine wired up this week hopefully


----------



## Vdubsolo (Apr 11, 2004)

*Re: (vr6freak)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6freak* »_








whos car is this? or anyone else running this coil pack 

Can this coilpack be mounted horizontal? Just curious as i think it would look a bit cleaner and more oem..I would assume its all in the bracket..


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Vdubsolo)*

I wasn't able to get it to mount like the OEM location, or at least the way I wanted it to look. The accel pack is a bit bigger and coupled with the CP spacer, it makes for a VERY thick installation.
However, if the ICM conversion is perfected, then it'll mount up fine in the stock location.
Speaking of which, anyone heard from Slayer on this?


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

its a no go with the one that I bought.. I have some other units that I would like to play around with and see if I can get spark. I'm thinking of trying some parts from a 1.8t to see if those will work


_Modified by Slayer at 10:33 AM 6-25-2007_


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (Slayer)*

If anyone wants some MSD Super Conductor wires IM me.
I have a set plus a LOT or the extra connectors.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

haha yea i just sold my set of msd wires too


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Yeah, I don't need mine anymore...figured someone is new to the project that might though.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

What do the conenctors look like? I have a friend that i might building another CP kit for. I could probably use them.


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

I actually have a full set of wires and the ends that have the MSD logo
on them. If you're interested IM me and I can send you some pics.


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re:*

Set is currently built using these ends and look exactly like the pic below. I also have a set of the MSD logo ends as well.








Here is what the MSD Logo ends look like












_Modified by jamesn67 at 8:59 AM 6-26-2007_


----------



## Vdubsolo (Apr 11, 2004)

*Re: Re: (jamesn67)*

I have the ones with the MSD logo on the ends..love em..Not that it matters much but it goes with the coilpacks nicely..I was also thinking in the future about swapping out the accel wires for MSD univirsal wires..just a though..


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: Re: (Vdubsolo)*

How about you buy mine then








I'll make you a very good deal
and will include the nice Logo ends...
IM me


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: Re: (jamesn67)*

Sell it in the classifieds please
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I would hope at this point no one else is having doubts about the project








Got Ims from two more people who got it running


_Modified by Cubix at 10:20 AM 6-26-2007_


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_Sell it in the classifieds please
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I would hope at this point no one else is having doubts about the project








Got Ims from two more people who got it running

_Modified by Cubix at 10:20 AM 6-26-2007_

Yeah, sorry about that. And nope, no doubts on my end


----------



## MaSeDoGG (Jan 22, 2004)

*Re: (MaSeDoGG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MaSeDoGG* »_i want to do this, but i'm still hesitant b/c of my wiring abilities...
also: to the guys that have done this, how much TOTAL does this whole deal cost? $150 in coils?
$80 bracket, $100 wires, $30 plugs?, icm(i've already got 2 from 2 f'd coilpacks, but they might be faulty as well)? wiring? resistor? (anything else??)

haha i'm doin it. the random misfire and bogging in the rain are killin' me.
i ordered all my parts today. here's a recap:
~ $200 shipped for Gruven Bracket, black wires w/ GM ends, and NGK v-power plugs. FOURSEASONS.
then ~ $150 for MSD coils and MSD resistor. JEGS.
auxiliary wires and soldering will be about another $10. 
so about 350 for an entirely new setup.
oem coil $250, oem wires $90, oem plugs (ngk platinum) 50. so thats about $400. 

hopefully the wiring will go just fine. i'm not sure what problems i could run into that haven't occurred sometime throughout this thread, and if i do... i know you guys can help.
i'll post pictures of my setup when i get it installed.
big ups to cubix for this thread. good job man.

edit: i didn't think about the icm as an expense cuz i had an extra one sitting around. 
also, i went with the vpower ngk's cuz i read they are easier to gap (vs. the ngk platinum), they're cheaper, and supposedly they work better on mildly modded v. force fed.


_Modified by MaSeDoGG at 4:25 PM 6-26-2007_


----------



## vr6freak (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: (MaSeDoGG)*

it can all be said and done for around 200


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (vr6freak)*

Wiring is easyyyyyyy








Ok, lets get some info here
I'm putting new plugs in
What are you guys running?
It will definitely be gapped to .055" so it's gotta be something thats gappable


----------



## VWDave88 (Jan 21, 2003)

*Re: (Cubix)*

subscribed didnt notice any info i might have missed it im running a 92 dist 12v and want to do an msd ignition swap keep the dist but loose the coil can it be done the same way just 1 coil and wire in the icm as you all did or is it best to drop the money and by an msd box


----------



## bjettin (May 4, 2001)

*Re: (MaSeDoGG)*

Here's my pics from my set up....this is the first eletrical work I've done on my car (other than jbwelding my old coil) Super easy & Works great!
























































yea yea I know the white liquid tape looks fugly.








One thing I had an issue with is the spades not staying put in the slots for the coils. So I bent the spades to form a 90 degree angle...so when the spade is in the slot the wire laid flat on the body of the coil then I put the bracket ontop of the spades so when I bolted the bracket down the connectors were held in nice and tight.











_Modified by bjettin at 6:47 AM 6-27-2007_


----------



## Vdubsolo (Apr 11, 2004)

*Re: (bjettin)*

I would definitly solder the connections to the ICM terminals..
Other wise it looks alright..minus the white sutff..but seriously consider soldering those connections..


----------



## bjettin (May 4, 2001)

*Re: (Vdubsolo)*

I was thinking about sodering the connections but when I went to take the quick connects off 2 wouldn't come off. i realized that there was a litte bend at the end of the ICM terminals that was keeping them from coming off so I just added the bend to the other 2 and wrapped them up nice an tight...hopefullly they will stay...I will prob soder them when I install my cams in a few weeks.


_Modified by bjettin at 7:59 AM 6-27-2007_


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (bjettin)*

Also make sure the liquid tape is rated to a high enough temp 
as it's going to get fairly hot.


----------



## bjettin (May 4, 2001)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

true I gotta check that thanks for the heads up. If its not I can re do it with black tape cause the white is annoying...not that I can see it when the packs are installed


----------



## all-starr-me (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: (VWDave88)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VWDave88* »_subscribed didnt notice any info i might have missed it im running a 92 dist 12v and want to do an msd ignition swap keep the dist but loose the coil can it be done the same way just 1 coil and wire in the icm as you all did or is it best to drop the money and by an msd box 

for a dizzy car you would replace the coil like in this thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3121426


----------



## bjettin (May 4, 2001)

*Re: (bjettin)*

Huge T-storms tons of flooding all afternoon & through the night last night. Turn the car on this morning the car started and ran like a dream. No mis-fires no crappy acceleration with hesitation http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (bjettin)*

Yea I drove through that last night
It was freaky as hell going through the back roads of NJ, almost no visibility
but atleast my car didn't skip a heartbeat


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (Cubix)*

I'll hopefully have some more icm stuff to play around with in the next week or so.. i'm bidding on some used icms for testing on ebay, and i have some coil driver ic's on the way as well. hopefully we'll find something relatively cheap and easy that works


----------



## Vdubsolo (Apr 11, 2004)

*Re: (bjettin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bjettin* »_I was thinking about sodering the connections but when I went to take the quick connects off 2 wouldn't come off. i realized that there was a litte bend at the end of the ICM terminals that was keeping them from coming off so I just added the bend to the other 2 and wrapped them up nice an tight...hopefullly they will stay...I will prob soder them when I install my cams in a few weeks.

_Modified by bjettin at 7:59 AM 6-27-2007_

Just keep in mind the engine vibrations..


----------



## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_Yea I drove through that last night
It was freaky as hell going through the back roads of NJ, almost no visibility
but atleast my car didn't skip a heartbeat


I got caught in that also, zero vis at any speed for a while. I actually had to pull over once. the MSD setup ran well. Fwiw I don't run a resistor, plugs are gapped at .040, using all crimp connectors and 12 gauge wires. I put heatshrink over the icm leads, whos ends I modified to accept spade terminals.


----------



## RenegadeVW (Feb 16, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Do you know what size the male piece is that goes into the back of the coilpack and where to get some?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (RenegadeVW)*

Radioshack
I used the ones with the pink waterproof cover on them
don't remember the size


----------



## MaSeDoGG (Jan 22, 2004)

word, i just got mine at radio shack too. 
mine have yellow connectors. 
its called "insulated crimp-on quick disconnects."
pt. 64-3137
they are made for 12-10 guage
edit: page 15 y'all.


_Modified by MaSeDoGG at 5:52 PM 7-4-2007_


----------



## bjettin (May 4, 2001)

*Re: (MaSeDoGG)*

Is anyone else experiencing an increase in gas milage. I usually fill up @ a 1/4 tank but I wasn't paying atttention & I just got 347mi on my last tank (I think 330 was my best and that was all highway) My gas light didnt go on til 324mi it usually goes on around 275 -280.


----------



## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: (bjettin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bjettin* »_Is anyone else experiencing an increase in gas milage. I usually fill up @ a 1/4 tank but I wasn't paying atttention & I just got 347mi on my last tank (I think 330 was my best and that was all highway) My gas light didnt go on til 324mi it usually goes on around 275 -280.









That doesn't surprise me. You are getting a hotter spark from these coils than the factory ones.
Bigger wires help out with getting that spark there efficiently.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (bjettin)*

thats crazy high
I usually get 275 to 3/4 a tank


----------



## swim69bob (Jan 25, 2005)

*Re: (Cubix)*

hey slayer i was just thinking you are trying you use only 1 of those volvo icms right, 
well i was thinking you might need to use 2 of them, casue the volvos have 2 icm 1 for cyl 123 and 1 for 456, they each have their own power you might be able to do a individual coil setup if you have 2 icm, maybe something along the lines of a 24v setup,


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (swim69bob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *swim69bob* »_hey slayer i was just thinking you are trying you use only 1 of those volvo icms right, 
well i was thinking you might need to use 2 of them, casue the volvos have 2 icm 1 for cyl 123 and 1 for 456, they each have their own power you might be able to do a individual coil setup if you have 2 icm, maybe something along the lines of a 24v setup, 

swim69bob, are the volvo's you're talking about running 6 coils? The reason I only used one is because we only need to trigger 3 coils (wasted spark), and they were 3 channel units. they are unpowered though (no constant 12v). 
I have 3 powered single channel units that I am going to be working on, and it should work.. only problem is that it would be quite expensive to have to use 3 modules unless you get them used like I did


----------



## swim69bob (Jan 25, 2005)

*Re: (Slayer)*

yeah i have not looked at a diagram for the volvo in a while, but i doint know how they are fired but yeah they have 6 coils, i was just thinking you could get 6 indicividual coils and run both icm,


----------



## bjettin (May 4, 2001)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Im gonna see what the next tank brings...


----------



## MaSeDoGG (Jan 22, 2004)

*Re: (bjettin)*

did the major tune up and got it working.
wired up:








plug wires are a bit long and dont fit into engine cover. i might trim the cover a bit to get them to lay flat.
bay:








haggard spark plug:








mk3 that needs to be lowered and washed:










_Modified by MaSeDoGG at 12:54 PM 7-7-2007_


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

I just did this the other day, and even with spirited driving it seems that I'm not using as much fuel. I'll throw some pictures up soon. I did have a cracked coil pack, but the difference from what I remember the car to be like pre-cracked coil pack is really nice. It's a much cheaper alternative to an OEM coil pack, as you all know.


----------



## swim69bob (Jan 25, 2005)

*Re: (tripwalking)*

i am still expirenceing some bad gas mileage i can not figour it out yet, geting like 20 mpg driving easy,


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: (swim69bob)*

I found this online. Looks like it would help make the wiring easier right?
http://www.shopatron.com/produ...424.0


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (swim69bob)*

20mpg highway? That's low. Must be something else. I assume you have already checked the O2 sensor?


----------



## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

*Re: (jamesn67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesn67* »_20mpg highway? That's low. Must be something else. I assume you have already checked the O2 sensor? 

I get the same mpg 19 city 21 highway







changed wires/plugs O2 sensor......went from 17 to 19 mpg when changed...
I got mostly everything for this just missing the cable plugs.. and the time


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_I found this online. Looks like it would help make the wiring easier right?
http://www.shopatron.com/produ...424.0 









mentioned on first page http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## JettaBoi_VR6 (Oct 24, 2002)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Damn....really bummed that i threw out my oil coil pack now. Is anyone planning on making and selling these? (didn't read all 15 pages)


----------



## swim69bob (Jan 25, 2005)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

its reading correctly, the long term fuel trims are -7, so its running rich, and the short term trims are around -6, i think its either the 02 sensor or the maf,


----------



## Shikaroka (Dec 12, 2002)

*Re: (swim69bob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *swim69bob* »_i am still expirenceing some bad gas mileage i can not figour it out yet, geting like 20 mpg driving easy, 

On which car?


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (ricardo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ricardo* »_
I get the same mpg 19 city 21 highway







changed wires/plugs O2 sensor......went from 17 to 19 mpg when changed...


i get better mileage than that with my VRT and stock coilpack.
i get over 300miles/tank.
280 or so at the orange warning marks.


----------



## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jhayesvw* »_
i get better mileage than that with my VRT and stock coilpack.
i get over 300miles/tank.
280 or so at the orange warning marks.

the funny part is when I reset the computer the second day or so I get 26-28 mpg...... yes the MFA is not accurate but I still dont get more than 200 miles on 10 gallons..


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

*Re: (tripwalking)*


----------



## SlowMotion (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: (tripwalking)*

Danm those is some sick welding 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Clean install to boot


----------



## Tire_Marx (Mar 4, 2004)

*Re: (SlowMotion)*

REAL sick welding, NICELY done to whomever welded that (be it you or someone else)
only thing i'd do is insulate the exposed wiring at the ICM


----------



## leftme2002 (Mar 28, 2004)

*Re: (Tire_Marx)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tire_Marx* »_only thing i'd do is insulate the exposed wiring at the ICM

X2, My ICM shorted and died, needed to get a new one. Learn from my mistakes.

Clayton


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

*Re: (leftme2002)*

I could just put some shrink wrap on the pins just up to the connections... I don't see how it could short unless it touches, but I should err on the side of caution. That's how I roll.


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

*Re: (tripwalking)*

thanks for the compliments... here's a closer one:








playing drums really helps with tig welding. 
and sorry it's a bit off topic, but if you want to check out some videos of me welding, search for "welder series" on YouTube. It's just videos showing how to assemble parts we sell.


_Modified by tripwalking at 4:14 PM 7-11-2007_


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: (tripwalking)*

Nice. Wanna save me $75 too?








Couldn't you just make the opening for the 4 metal parts to go through really big so that there isn't really any risk of them touching anything?


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

I'm not going to touch on the bracket topic... the bracket that's on the market is a nice piece. I have the facilities, so I'm able to make one myself.
The slot for the bus bars is larger than it looks in the picture, but I'll probably still put shrink wrap over them at some point.


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: (tripwalking)*

I know I was kidding about the bracket. Nice work though.
I was just wondering if there was any reason that opening couldn't be made as large and as close to the edge/corner as possible?


----------



## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Really nice weld. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
But don't you guys care about weight at all?








I made one myself out of ~0.12 inch aluminum.


----------



## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: (DanielT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DanielT* »_
But don't you guys care about weight at all?










Are you seriously thinking a bracket that small makes a huge difference in weight?
I don't think that would even be an issue.


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

*Re: (DanielT)*

if this was strapped to a goldfish, it might make a difference...
we should race, then we'd know for sure.

edit:
just checked out your website... that's a nice car! I guess on something like that, I may have made it out of aluminum. I have two car seats in the back, and I even carry a tool kit, so weight isn't something I think about day-to-day. 


_Modified by tripwalking at 10:37 PM 7-11-2007_


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_I know I was kidding about the bracket. Nice work though.
I was just wondering if there was any reason that opening couldn't be made as large and as close to the edge/corner as possible?

The opening for the ICM prongs? It's location and size were picked
to keep some material surrounding it and allow a larger blend radius. I doubt there is much load there but this thing will vibrate so I wanted to avoid any cracking issues. I was also trying to limit the overall height of the bracket. If you were making one for yourself I'd try to
use the larger opening. That way if it cracked no one would complain but yourself.


----------



## clunkyVR6 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

A quick update from no-resistor land:
I now have almost 60,000kms on this setup, including my recent 4,000km/3 day/110 degree trip from Toronto to Reno, and my car is still running strong with a total of 240,000kms.
The only problem I've had so far was when I changed my spark plugs prior to my move out to Reno. In removing the plug boots, all but one of the boots ripped leaving about an inch of the bottom of the boots around the tops of the spark plugs. After some careful surgery including the use of fileting knives and bent and sharpened coat hanger wire, I was able to get the boot residue off of the spark plugs, but the cables were destroyed... and yes, before someone asks, I had used dielectric grease when I first put the boots on.
The wire set that I destroyed was a black Accell set with silver boots. I am not sure exactly what the part number was. I was never happy with this set from the start since they were extremely difficult to seat on the plugs. The boots were almost like gel and as such, they were hard to work with down in the plug holes. 
I replaced the wrecked wires with a set of yellow Accell wires that have smaller and stiffer orange boots. These went on like a dream and are working perfectly... they were also only $35 at Kragens. I'm still running cheapo NGK's that are gapped at .040.


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

I got a set of "aftermarket" plugs from VW... they're their performance set for the VR, and I know they were under $150. They have the stock metal boots with the sliding handles and everything. Good deal!


----------



## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (tripwalking)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tripwalking* »_if this was strapped to a goldfish, it might make a difference...
we should race, then we'd know for sure.

edit:
just checked out your website... that's a nice car! I guess on something like that, I may have made it out of aluminum. I have two car seats in the back, and I even carry a tool kit, so weight isn't something I think about day-to-day. 


From the looks of it, it is more than twice the thickness compared to mine. (mine is actually 0.08inch thick, not 0.12 as I recalled before)
Which in steel means that this piece is probably more than 2lbs heavier than mine.
Mine weigh something like 0.5lbs.
I always have full interior and usually 60-70lbs of tools in the trunk. But if I can I choose to not put 2lbs extra under the hood.


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

it's 3/16" mild steel. I thought the extra weight would put some more traction on my tires.


----------



## vr6freak (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: (tripwalking)*


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (vr6freak)*

^^^ Damn, that looks good. How did you end up doing the wiring on it? My car has been out of commission for the past week and I'm going to redo the wiring on it when I can.
Any pics of the install or anything? Also, did you end up installing the resistor?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (clunkyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *clunkyVR6* »_A quick update from no-resistor land:


Been hot as hell here, and driving like crazy
no resistor
all love








10k miles


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

what coils are those? 

looks great!


----------



## poopooplatter (Jan 15, 2005)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_
Been hot as hell here, and driving like crazy
no resistor
all love








10k miles

SAME HERE!!!!


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (poopooplatter)*

No resistor here either, 2k miles and all smiles.








But I did just blow my slave cylinder!


----------



## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: (VRdublove)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRdublove* »_
But I did just blow my slave cylinder!









and he is still smiling??


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (tripwalking)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tripwalking* »_what coils are those? 

looks great!

Looks like the Accel GM Grand National Coils


----------



## N204life (Aug 7, 2003)

If anyone is worrying about heat, its been 102F here in oregon and i have full independent coils and msd DIS-4 ignition box and ive been driving alot, and aint crap happened. If peoples coils need a resistor because of heat i check your wiring and setup, ever since i put mine in its been nothing but a dream and 30mpg in a mk3 vr6











_Modified by N204life at 10:45 PM 7-12-2007_


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

there's another thread... DIS-4.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (poopooplatter)*























Gotta love it!
Going to be rebuilding my motor soon and finally getting some new and properly gapped plugs in there


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

relating to the coilpack alternative title, can we open up a plug gap discussion for when we're running an alternative to the coilpack?
I'm wondering what gap I can run with the 8224 MSD coils and still be streetable. Has anyone changed their gap a few times to see what runs best? I have the NGK plugs that everyone says to get for the VR.
thanks


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (tripwalking)*

I pretty sure I included the information on the very first post
some people are running up to .055"


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

*Re: (Cubix)*

thanks, just found it again. How about some feedback from the gappers? What gap are you running? What difference did it make?


----------



## N204life (Aug 7, 2003)

*Re: (tripwalking)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tripwalking* »_there's another thread... DIS-4. 

No theres not but i did complete it and i've only seen one other person complete it


----------



## MaSeDoGG (Jan 22, 2004)

well, the NGK plugs everyone says to get have two electrodes ($12 plugs!?!?).. meaning it's nearly impossible (or necessary to gap them). 
i've got the NGK v-power plugs they're like $20 for all six... they're gapped at 0.045" and my gas mileage isn't the best, but i think that it's due to a secondary air injection malfunction.
ALTHOUGH! when i had bosch platinums and stock coilpack ( resulting in a random misfires) i seemed to get a bit better mileage.


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

I just took the spare plugs out of the box and a .060 feeler gauge is loose. They NGK laser platinum with the two electrodes.


_Modified by tripwalking at 4:35 PM 7-13-2007_


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

*Re: (N204life)*

I meant there would be enough info and discussion to start another thread








Here's a good paragraph on spark plug gap:
http://www.openroad.ca/volkswe...15288 


_Modified by tripwalking at 5:14 PM 7-13-2007_


----------



## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

*Re: (MaSeDoGG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MaSeDoGG* »_well, the NGK plugs everyone says to get have two electrodes ($12 plugs!?!?).. meaning it's nearly impossible (or necessary to gap them). 
i've got the NGK v-power plugs they're like $20 for all six... they're gapped at 0.045" and my gas mileage isn't the best, but i think that it's due to a secondary air injection malfunction.
ALTHOUGH! when i had bosch platinums and stock coilpack ( resulting in a random misfires) i seemed to get a bit better mileage.









when you use this type of coilpack you dont need to use the expensive/standard plugs...some say use the $1 autolites is fine


----------



## JettaBoi_VR6 (Oct 24, 2002)

*Re: (ricardo)*

I use NGK iridiums. They're like $6 each and the car runs great with them.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (JettaBoi_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JettaBoi_VR6* »_I use NGK iridiums. They're like $6 each and the car runs great with them.

Are you running the stock coilpack?


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

what gaps are people running with this coil setup? Like I said, both extra plugs I have were pre gapped at over .060! I might try to go a bit more, because it's still running smooth now. But if I can get a bit more spark out of them, I'd at least give it a try.


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

anyone?


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (tripwalking)*

Pregapped at 0.060"! That seems like a crazy gap to be pregapped at. Mine NGK V powers were pregapped around .030", and I gapped them out to .050" and the car runs great with this gap, so I am leaving it as it is. 
No misfires with .060"?


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (ricardo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ricardo* »_
when you use this type of coilpack you dont need to use the expensive/standard plugs...some say use the $1 autolites is fine

i use $1.67 ngk bkr7e plugs with the stock coilpack.


----------



## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jhayesvw* »_
i use $1.67 ngk bkr7e plugs with the stock coilpack.









well I tried other plugs and I had issues..maybe I'll give this a try.. its only 15 bucks


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

*Re: (VRdublove)*

no misfires... runs great. 
I might try to go a bit bigger, and see what happens.


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (ricardo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ricardo* »_
well I tried other plugs and I had issues..maybe I'll give this a try.. its only 15 bucks

my car is a VRT. so i run colder plugs


----------



## Dubbed95 (Jul 23, 2004)

*Re: (tripwalking)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tripwalking* »_what gaps are people running with this coil setup? Like I said, both extra plugs I have were pre gapped at over .060! I might try to go a bit more, because it's still running smooth now. But if I can get a bit more spark out of them, I'd at least give it a try.


Be carful with a gap like that, when u increase tha gap like that you asking alot more outta the coils. this is where u burn em up. the 12-14 supply voltage doesn't do diddly to the life of the coils but the secondary winding (which are capable of 50K+ volts, scan cause the coils to burn up, they run alot hotter too. its great if ur haveing success with it but keep an eye on em.


----------



## JettaBoi_VR6 (Oct 24, 2002)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_
Are you running the stock coilpack?

Yea...mine died a few months ago so i replaced it with another Beru. Wish i would've seen this post back then...


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

*Re: (Dubbed95)*

thanks for the advice.


----------



## Masta Flash (Feb 2, 2006)

*Re: (tripwalking)*

Can someone IM me with a place on where I can get the coils cheap or for a good deal


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Masta Flash)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Masta Flash* »_Can someone IM me with a place on where I can get the coils cheap or for a good deal

I'll save ya the PM and make it public info. Any of the coils (MSD or Accel) are nearly the same price from vendor to vendor.


----------



## T99inFL (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: (Dubbed95)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Dubbed95* »_
Be carful with a gap like that, when u increase tha gap like that you asking alot more outta the coils. this is where u burn em up. the 12-14 supply voltage doesn't do diddly to the life of the coils but the secondary winding (which are capable of 50K+ volts, scan cause the coils to burn up, they run alot hotter too. its great if ur haveing success with it but keep an eye on em.









What documentation can you share to support your premise that increasing the plug gap can cause the coils to burn up and run hotter?


----------



## Dubbed95 (Jul 23, 2004)

*Re: (T99inFL)*

First off, thanks for taking the time to question my statement and not just asume i know what im talking about. props http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif , second, i have no documentation, but experience. Not on vw but GM's and electric motors for that matter. when the gaps were progressively increcreased on the spark plug with some of the older trans ams i used to mess with, u would definitely get better spark and performance not doubting that, but they caused two problems. either the electrodes would get little black/purple spots on the electrode then start misfiring, or one or more of the posts on the coil would crack itself, much like the factory ones. Now most of theose engines were running hot ign systems anyways, i.e mallory, fireballs,HEI. ect,ect,ect so may not hold true to the factory icm. Hince, why i said watch it







U also have to remember, those coils operate to a set dwell time, so they only have so long to build up 50k+ volts b4 they collapse and go sparky, sparky,. by increasing the gap ur adding airspace, i.e resistence, (sp)







which that spark now has to fight harder through.


----------



## T99inFL (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: (Dubbed95)*

Thanks for your response. 
The Accel 140017 coil that I am familiar with, is labeled for use on GM vehicles, 1986-2001, Delco DIS (ACDelco #D555). I looked at the specs for some GM vehicles and the 1999 Pontiac Firebird, V6, 3.8L uses a factory plug gapped at 0.060". There are other models across the GM line that use similar motors and plug gap settings. I also verified the replacement coils and they all come back to the above Accel coil. 
I interpret this to mean that GM considers this coil to work reliably at a gap of 0.060" and by extension, I will say that this coil is rated at a gap of 0.060."
I have no idea what the dwell values on a GM vs a VW are, but it seems to me that the dwell is what would overload and abuse these coils, not the gaps if they do not exceed 0.060."
Way back in this thread (or the original deleted thread), I had introduced the concept of increasing the plug gap. At that time I had measured the electrode gap on my WORN BKR5EKUP and it was greater than 0.060." (I am aware of the documentation that says the gap on these plugs is to be measured between insulator and electrode.)
What were the little black/purple spots on your electrodes?


----------



## Masta Flash (Feb 2, 2006)

*Re: (T99inFL)*

anyone have a bad coil pack I can have....I need to modify the stock bracket due to my supercharger piping


----------



## porksoda (Jun 3, 2004)

*Re: (Masta Flash)*

buy the icm and do the MSD.







i know one person in canada is selling icm in canadian parts classifieds.


----------



## Dubbed95 (Jul 23, 2004)

*Re: (T99inFL)*

I went back over that setup with an old tech i was workin with at that time (couple yrs ago) and forgot to mention wh didn't quite have out fueling 100% right. the spots were on a couple of plugs, which eventually fouled out and from what we remembered it was due to a couple of the injectors leaking. We still had that problem with two of the towers cracking and arcing outside after we played with the gap but i can't rember how far we went. Plus the packs weren't new. the rest of the info is slowly returnig to me but its been a while


----------



## TOPLEVEL (May 8, 2005)

*Re: (Dubbed95)*

Sweet thread, i want to upgrade my spark, Im actually really interested in the gran national coils.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

I was just browsing one of the advertisers sites and found they are selling the oem ICM seperate from the coil pack for 145
http://www.koperformance.com/volkswagen/index.htm 
The site doesn't really navigate well, but its an interesting find


----------



## pubahs (Apr 2, 2002)

Trying to maintain a black color theme in my bay..... does MSD sell black coils that would work with this or is it strictly red?
I know there are these (pic below) my question is, what are these from, and does it get wired up the same as the MSD do?


----------



## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: (pubahs)*

Jegs sells black MSD style coils


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (dubsrphat)*

btw: I haven't deserted my quest to find something to substitute, just been doing other things lately. I should have some test equipment coming in soon so I can setup a benchtop test station that sends the pulses at the correct intervals to mimic the car.. that way I dont have to tear apart my car every time I want to test something


----------



## all-starr-me (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

just finished mine up, now I need to make my wires. I will have some pics up soon though. 
Does polarity matter on these coils? I didn't see any + or - so I just made sure each coil had one common wire from the 15 and one to each pair.


----------



## all-starr-me (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Btw I have a spare mk4 coil thats cracked with connector so you can convert over from square (mk3) to rounded plug (mk4) just by repinning the connector on it without splicing. If anyone wants it or has a mk4 I will let it go cheap.


----------



## MKII16v (Oct 23, 1999)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (all-starr-me)*

The Grand National coil pack does wire up just like the MSD. I heard talk of Flipside customs offering a pre wired coil and bracket assembly for around $150 that included the ends for your plug wires, as well as wiring instructions for the 4 connections at the ICM.


----------



## 15degreeGTI (Mar 13, 2006)

Beru unit from ECStuning


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (all-starr-me)*

re: all-star: 
I was going to give you some tips for the intall, then I read your signature. That's tasteless and I can't believe you think it's funny. 
next


----------



## all-starr-me (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (tripwalking)*

Pssh, I don't care what you think, if you are gonna let your stupid religion and morals get in the way of helping someone out in a technical discussion you are the terrible person. thanks for turning the other cheek, hatemonger


----------



## all-starr-me (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_I was just browsing one of the advertisers sites and found they are selling the oem ICM seperate from the coil pack for 145
http://www.koperformance.com/volkswagen/index.htm 
The site doesn't really navigate well, but its an interesting find

That ICM looks like its for the 1.8T so it wouldn't have enough outputs for us to use.


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (all-starr-me)*

I do feel terrible for speaking out against killing people... gee, what was I thinking?
*polarity doesn't matter, as long as they're consistent.*



_Modified by tripwalking at 3:02 PM 7-30-2007_


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (tripwalking)*

guys, take the pissing match to IM's so the thread doesnt get locked


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

good call


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (tripwalking)*

i think i may finally be looking at replacing my stock coilpack.
im still on the fence about going stock or going with this setup.
what guage wire are you guys using to wire the coils, that arent having any issues for thousands of miles?


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*

I'm not sure that it will really matter... as long as they're not smaller than the ones coming to the ICU, which isn't very big at all. I used a decent size wire - not sure exactly the gauge. 
After a few weeks with this setup, I'm really impressed with the smoothness and driveability. No issues at all.
It's at least half the cost of getting a new coilpack installed at VW, too!


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jhayesvw* »_i think i may finally be looking at replacing my stock coilpack.
im still on the fence about going stock or going with this setup.
what guage wire are you guys using to wire the coils, that arent having any issues for thousands of miles?



I believe we have from 10ga to 14ga. I think many are running 12ga
which is what I would use.


----------



## 15degreeGTI (Mar 13, 2006)

i thought this thread was about to get locked


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (15degreeGTI)*

whys that?
lol

I'm using 12g @ over 14k miles now
running strong no problems even in the craziest weather


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (tripwalking)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tripwalking* »_
After a few weeks with this setup, I'm really impressed with the smoothness and driveability. No issues at all.
It's at least half the cost of getting a new coilpack installed at VW, too!

giving up your left testicle is cheaper than what the dealer would charge for a coilpack and install!!!!
LOL


----------



## abt cup (Aug 1, 2000)

Does anybody have a total cost for everything? My coilpack is only a year old...but if this is something that will be better off in the long run...I'm in.
I'm not sure if everyone knows but...you can get a Borg Warner (pre mk4) coilpack at Pep Boys for 200. If you got a mk3 or older VR6...you'd be nuts to buy from the dealer.


----------



## bjettin (May 4, 2001)

*Re: (Cubix)*

So last week a bolt came loose on my msd setup cause some idiot ddnt use loctite on the bolts & they shorted out causing my car to blow a fuse... I swapped the fuse screwed the bolts back on (w/loctite) & she fired right up. I noticed she wasn't runnin as smooth as she was originally but she was working. So yest I'm runnin her hard & I tap the rev limiter the throttle cuts & goes to re-engage & bam car shuts off again...I thought that was interesting so I try the fuse swap cause the bolts are fine & she fires up & dies again (blew the fuse). I get her towed to my house & swap out the old new ICM for the old ICM I still had in the garage. She fires up but still not as smooth as she was the first time I installed the packs... I'm headin into work creepin along in traffic on 78 & she blows another fuse again...So now I'm waitin for a tow truck to take my crippled ride to my job. So what do u think the problem is? I'm guessing I f'ed up the coils when she shorted out. There are no noticable cracks on them though. I'm gonna order a new ICM & coils & see if a brand new setup fixes the problem...


----------



## all-starr-me (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: (bjettin)*

If your popping fuses I would check the wiring and make sure theres not a short to ground or melted wiring, I had a short and had to replace a bunch of wires in my harness. Get a multi meter and check for ground continuity on all the wires going into the coilpack connector.


----------



## bjettin (May 4, 2001)

*Re: (all-starr-me)*

So your saying I might have fried some wires goin to the coil connector and the packs may be fine? I hope its just the coil pack


----------



## N204life (Aug 7, 2003)

I dont know how anyone is screwing this up, its got to be the easy thing in the world. I did my coil setup in under a half an hour, and then i went and put a msd DIS-4 and nothing has ever gone wrong. Is there no really good step by step instructions, if not i can get some out


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (N204life)*

You mean other then the step by step instructions on the first page of the thread?
and people aren't 'screwing it up'
icm problems lead to dead coils and various issues


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (Cubix)*

has the first post in the thread been updated with the very most recent findings??
wiring diagram, ICM issues, wire gauge to use, etc?


----------



## boner (May 19, 2002)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*

i know i'm coming into this conversation late but i am a very new owner to a coil pack equipped VR6 (the Corrado is a dizzy)
i used to own a '93 Audi S4 that had COP with ICMs on the located on the firewall. the ICM is the same as an audi V6. i think an audi v6 is batch fired. has someone checked those out for their usefulness? when i was having ignintion issues with my S4 i priced them out and they were around $120 canadian. it wasn't the problem on my car but i have heard that they are quite robust.
they also use a nice connector both in and out so it could lend itself to a very clean install.
i am more mechanically inclined so i won't try and understand the electrical aspects of it but if someone is able to say that it could work from theoretical standpoint and tell me where to plug in the wires, i might play with it as a side project.


_Modified by boner at 2:26 PM 8-2-2007_


----------



## N204life (Aug 7, 2003)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_You mean other then the step by step instructions on the first page of the thread?
and people aren't 'screwing it up'
icm problems lead to dead coils and various issues

The whole reason i did this whole swap is because i was blowing ICM's on a monthly basis and ever since then ive never had never had a problem. 
Is there anyone else with a dis-4 on there car, id like to know how its working out for them. From what ive seen ive only seen 2 people with it.


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (N204life)*


_Quote, originally posted by *N204life* »_
The whole reason i did this whole swap is because i was blowing ICM's on a monthly basis and ever since then ive never had never had a problem. 
Is there anyone else with a dis-4 on there car, id like to know how its working out for them. From what ive seen ive only seen 2 people with it.









if you were blowign ICMs on a monthly basis, you have other issues with your car. its not a coilpack.
but if the MSDs happen to allow your car to run, so be it,but i would say you should look at your car for electrical issues.


----------



## VR6_00Jetta (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: (N204life)*

Glad to hear that you're happy with your mod. What plug gap are you running?


----------



## all-starr-me (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*

Heres my pics of the guy I made: 



I used plastic epoxy and glued the ICM spacer to a piece of aluminum and the Accel coil base to the other side then drilled some holes for the wires and mounting screws in the aluminum pieces. This way the ICM and the coil are replaceable. I bent the leads from the ICM 90 degrees so they fit under the spacer. I used a set of wires I already had and soldiered/crimped some new taylor HEI ends on them. Between the coil and ends I have spent $100 so far, I will get it in place and report back with more.


_Modified by all-starr-me at 10:14 PM 8-6-2007_


----------



## all-starr-me (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: (all-starr-me)*

I found some good pics over in this thread: http://www.vwfixx.com/forums/i...66430
the one that shows the wiring for the ICM to coils should be included on the first page.


----------



## dossantos25 (Mar 18, 2005)

*Re: (all-starr-me)*

just a quick question, can i wire the coils directly off the ICM? i saw in the first post, a 1ohm resistor was wired in, why is this?


----------



## The Green (Oct 5, 2002)

*Re: (dossantos25)*

Ok, I do not know enough about coils and stuff, so it is wiser for me to just ask:
can this be done on a PG engine also (4 cyl)? Direct swap or any customisation? (partnumbers maybe?







)
Sorry for the noob question


----------



## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: (The Green)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Green* »_Ok, I do not know enough about coils and stuff, so it is wiser for me to just ask:
can this be done on a PG engine also (4 cyl)? Direct swap or any customisation? (partnumbers maybe?







)
Sorry for the noob question









No, PG has a dizzy.


----------



## all-starr-me (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: (The Green)*

For a dizzy car, 4 & 6 cyl. you can add a higher output coil, like in this thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3121426


----------



## NCEJetta98 (Mar 31, 2006)

is there a big
hp gain??


----------



## DubbleTrubble (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (blu_mk2)*

I just did this mod on my car and I am getting a flashing check engine light anytime I go above 3k rpms. Also there is a strange noise coming from the cat and a fuel smell. That noise turned into a noise that sounds like a spun rod bearing but,I just dumped the oil and no metal shavings there. How long should the car sit in the on position before I turn it over to reset the ecu??? Can anybody help?


_Modified by DubbleTrubble at 6:02 PM 8-12-2007_


----------



## Shikaroka (Dec 12, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (DubbleTrubble)*

Flashing CEL means bad misfires, which would also cause popping noises and the fuel smell from running very rich.
I'd say you have a bad plug wire or it's arcing somewhere. Try running the car at night (dark) with the hood up, and rev it up a little. You may have a little light show going on under your hood.


----------



## DubbleTrubble (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Shikaroka)*

no flashing cel but heavy metalic tapping noise from valvetrain.rewired hei boots to make sure I didnt mess up conductors


----------



## DubbleTrubble (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (DubbleTrubble)*

misfires caused a valve to bend


----------



## Shikaroka (Dec 12, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (DubbleTrubble)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DubbleTrubble* »_misfires caused a valve to bend









I guess anything is possible, but I doubt it.


----------



## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Shikaroka)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Shikaroka* »_
I guess anything is possible, but I doubt it.

The tinkle fairy told him so....


----------



## DubbleTrubble (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (dubsrphat)*


----------



## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

*Re: (NCEJetta98)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NCEJetta98* »_is there a big
hp gain??

You're missing the point...


----------



## solowb5 (Jan 16, 2007)

ive read this whole thread and i went and used gm coils with the 4seasontuning bracket. when i went to radio shack to pick up an ohm resitor they only had .48 ohm and 10 ohm. i went with the .48 and it fried today. roughtly 3 days after i did the coil conversion. i also blew my power wire fuse for my amp. the amp didnt work and i just had power runing to it. it happend when i got on it in second. any recommendations as to what happened here


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (solowb5)*

The Radio Shack resistors aren't really beefy enough. I have the Mallory one.
Nice to see another Nati'an on the boards.


----------



## solowb5 (Jan 16, 2007)

word! u on swov? anyway is the resistor just a thing that will give way before it roast the coils/icm? how dangerous is it to run w/o one? this is the car i use to get to point a to b. my other one isnt streetable so i cant risk messin it up


----------



## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

*Re: (solowb5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *solowb5* »_word! u on swov? anyway is the resistor just a thing that will give way before it roast the coils/icm? how dangerous is it to run w/o one? this is the car i use to get to point a to b. my other one isnt streetable so i cant risk messin it up 

You must have shorted something or hooked up something wrong, as there are a number of us who are running without the resistor, myself included, with no problems. I have seen no proof that we actually need a resistor, other than manufacturers recommendations, and I figure that they are just covering their asses due to so many makes of cars that will use their setups.


----------



## IwannaGTI (Jul 12, 2001)

*Re: ('dubber)*

welp, finally got mine installed tonight, it's sick. plugs gapped at 40 and it's a night and day difference http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
did I mention it's simple as hell


----------



## solowb5 (Jan 16, 2007)

ya i fried the ohm resistor but, it was only a .48 from radio shack. which i guess r pos. its runing fine now w/o it. i just want something there incase it happens again so that i fry that and not my icm or coils. i know i didnt wire it wrong bc there is only one way and if i wired it wrong it wouldnt start. its something else causing it. well see how long it goes this time w/o a problem. im just using the stock gm coils for now till im 100% its in perfect working condition so i dont risk buring a set of msds up


_Modified by solowb5 at 6:02 PM 8-15-2007_


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (solowb5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *solowb5* »_word! u on swov?

Yup, I've been on there since the start. First name (inactive) is vertigobora, current name is itgogitrev.


----------



## solowb5 (Jan 16, 2007)

ya i fried the ohm resistor but, it was only a .48 from radio shack. which i guess r pos. its runing fine now w/o it. i just want something there incase it happens again so that i fry that and not my icm or coils


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

yeah, there's probably another issue than the resistor... there are too many of us using it without. Mine's been resistor-less for over a month with some heavy driving, and no problems.


----------



## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: (tripwalking)*

I've been runing mine with no resistor for at least 5,000 miles and no problems.


----------



## RaraK69 (Jan 16, 2001)

*Re: (all-starr-me)*


_Quote, originally posted by *all-starr-me* »_Heres my pics of the guy I made: 



I used plastic epoxy and glued the ICM spacer to a piece of aluminum and the Accel coil base to the other side then drilled some holes for the wires and mounting screws in the aluminum pieces. This way the ICM and the coil are replaceable. I bent the leads from the ICM 90 degrees so they fit under the spacer. I used a set of wires I already had and soldiered/crimped some new taylor HEI ends on them. Between the coil and ends I have spent $100 so far, I will get it in place and report back with more.

_Modified by all-starr-me at 10:14 PM 8-6-2007_

nice setup, fyi if you on the cheap you can get that same coil, though a stock one not accel for like $35 from an autoparts store, 3.8 buick motor from the late 80's. just saw that same one at work today adn thats what it cost http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
and it looks like theres a spacer piece that can be ordered for like 6 bucks like pictured above.


----------



## Masta Flash (Feb 2, 2006)

*Re: (RaraK69)*

Who built this? it shows that it is using six individual coils... can I run this? whats needed?
http://www.msdignition.com/coil_blaster_2_8230.htm 
The reason im asking is im going to be running a shortrunner intake and I dig the look










_Modified by Masta Flash at 4:11 PM 8-22-2007_


----------



## dubsrphat (May 4, 2004)

*Re: (Masta Flash)*

I think it looks cluttered


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (Masta Flash)*

Looks like Todd / BogeVR6's car

_Quote, originally posted by *Masta Flash* »_Who built this? it shows that it is using six individual coils... can I run this? whats needed?
http://www.msdignition.com/coil_blaster_2_8230.htm 
The reason im asking is im going to be running a shortrunner intake and I dig the look









_Modified by Masta Flash at 4:11 PM 8-22-2007_


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (Slayer)*

i would be a little scared about the engine heating the packs up beyond their safe limit.
i know my engine gets HOT and my turbo isnt as big as that one.


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (Slayer)*

to the original poster...Keep in mind that he is also running standalone engine management.


----------



## DaBeeterEater (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_The Radio Shack resistors aren't really beefy enough. I have the Mallory one.
Nice to see another Nati'an on the boards.

i got a radio shack 1 ohm resistor and i have about 3k or so on it,
but where did you get the mallory one from,


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (DaBeeterEater)*

I got it from Jegs.
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs...11561


----------



## kyle_b (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

so i started mine last night.
does anyone know if permatex ultra copper is non-conductive? i think im gonna seal up where the wires enter the coils with it.


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (kyle_b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kyle_b* »_does anyone know if permatex ultra copper is non-conductive?

Yikes, with COPPER being a very good conductor, I would definitely NOT use that to electrically insulate anything.


----------



## German VR6 (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: (o2bad455)*

I have been running an ACCEL coil pack for the last 3 years without any problems. 
Why are you guys using a resistor for??


----------



## IwannaGTI (Jul 12, 2001)

*Re: (German VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *German VR6* »_I have been running an ACCEL coil pack for the last 3 years without any problems. 
Why are you guys using a resistor for??

cuz cubix told me too


----------



## HOTSKILLET98 (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (kyle_b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kyle_b* »_so i started mine last night.
does anyone know if permatex ultra copper is non-conductive? i think im gonna seal up where the wires enter the coils with it.

















Nice. I am waiting on parts to come in from Summit. Can you explain or post more pictures of how the resisiter is wire in?
Are those 8224 coils? The picture Summit uses for the 8224 has a square coil.
Also the bracket from a "leading source" has more material machine away. Is there a reason for this?








I can get a ebay version for half the price. 








Which one would you reccomend?


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (HOTSKILLET98)*

The resistor is wired inline with the +12v source to all 3 of the coils. As far as the bracket, any of them will work just fine.. I'd go for whichever is cheaper and easier for you to get


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Slayer)*


_Quote »_Also the bracket from a "leading source" has more material machine away. Is there a reason for this?
I can get a ebay version for half the price.
Which one would you reccomend?

Whichever one doesn't get this thread blackholed.


----------



## IwannaGTI (Jul 12, 2001)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

the problem is the fitment of the coils on the plate. They do not like to fit 100% so the singular holes may be a pain in the long run. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## kyle_b (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: (German VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *German VR6* »_I have been running an ACCEL coil pack for the last 3 years without any problems. 
Why are you guys using a resistor for??

im using the resistor b/c the msd coils resistance is lower than the stock one. the resistor acts as a current limiting device as not to draw too much power through the ignitor.

and i went ahead and used the ultra copper gasket stuff.


----------



## kyle_b (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: (kyle_b)*

finished about 20 min ago. 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (kyle_b)*

Yes, the black bracket in your post has slots to allow for ease of assembly. The other material removed is for weight reduction and
in case you chose to run the wires under there. Besides...it looks
snazzier


----------



## kyle_b (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

it was running great..... untill it got hot. then it started misfiring on a couple cylinders. i checked all the plug wires, then the box itself for shorts, ect. i took out the resistor, it was pretty hot, and measured it, 1.7ohms, hmmm. so im geussing the increased resistance caused too much of a voltage drop at the coils to produce adequate spark to fire correctly. in the end, i deleted the resistor and now it runs great, well see how she holds up over the next few days.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (IwannaGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *IwannaGTI* »_
cuz cubix told me too















































It's a preventative thing, I'm not running one anymore either
The attempt was to keep a bad ICM from burning out a coil and vice-a-versa


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Cubix)*

How long have you been resistor free? I wired one in for the hell of it.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

Maybe 5/10k or more
I drive a lot, hard and in hot temps, no misfiring, or problems


----------



## HOTSKILLET98 (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (kyle_b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kyle_b* »_finished about 20 min ago. 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

















What special instructions do I need to mount my coils like that? I ordered the black bracket already. Can I still mount the coils in this format using the the black bracket?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (HOTSKILLET98)*

as you can see he used a simple metal plate, not a bracket, the bracket is a mount bent 90 degrees that holds the coils in an upright position


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 5, 2007)

I am developing a plug and play kit for this with the bracket and our wiring harrness.
It is informational threads like this that keep the VW community growing in the right direction. Keep up the good work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif

_Quote, originally posted by *Moderators* »_*if there is a problem with this post PM me and i'll edit it dont lock a thread with so much good info!*

Also I dont understand the big deal with name droping with company's in this section of the forum... I'm a 1.8t guy and over there we mention company's like there going out of style and no one cares... just my .02
_edited to comform to the standards that are the 2.8L 12v tech section_


_Modified by [email protected] at 7:59 PM 8-31-2007_


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*

I'm not sure why it happened, but the last thread got blackholed over it. Not just locked, we can't even view what was on there before.
I'm sure that they watch this one real careful.
As much as I hate to say it, I think they'll probably pull your post b/c you're not a banner advertiser.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

Please be aware: 
*There is to be no advertising in this thread unless you are a banner advertiser AND talk to me first* 

So Sorry but you're going to have to remove that post please


----------



## kyle_b (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_as you can see he used a simple metal plate, not a bracket, the bracket is a mount bent 90 degrees that holds the coils in an upright position

yup, a 1/4 inch thick piece of aluminum with a bunch of wholes drilled in it. and no wires showing at all. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (kyle_b)*

Looks good, I like it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## HOTSKILLET98 (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (kyle_b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kyle_b* »_
yup, a 1/4 inch thick piece of aluminum with a bunch of wholes drilled in it. and no wires showing at all. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Are you interested in selling me a plate jst like that? Can you sell me a blank piece of aluminum like that?


----------



## kyle_b (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: (HOTSKILLET98)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HOTSKILLET98* »_
Are you interested in selling me a plate jst like that? Can you sell me a blank piece of aluminum like that?

it was a scrap piece my dad found at his work and i dont know where to get stuff like that. please dont bring up buying stuff and getting this thread blackholed again.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (HOTSKILLET98)*





































PM PEOPLE!
If you can't follow the rules *DON'T POST* 
We already lost a LOT of great information


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

I just ordered the red bracket. It was $20 cheaper, but even more important is that I liked the tapped thread feature, and it also looks a bit stronger (1/4" thick) than the black one. I note that it doesn't have as many or as big wire loom holes as the black one. Aluminum should be easy to drill if I have to add more, though. I'll let you all know if there are any problems with wire clearance. I currently have 3 GTI VR6s, and 2 of them can't be driven in the rain due to cracked stock coils. One will be an SCCA ITS car next year, and another should do some AMEC ice racing duty this winter. The third is my daily. Whatever works on the first will probably get copied for the other 2. I plan to use the MSD coils, unless the Accel or others would give a hotter spark. Any opinions?


----------



## uber ally (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: (o2bad455)*

What plug wires are you using for this? Can you still use the stock plug wires? I realize that the only difference will be the connection from the coilpack(s).


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (uber ally)*

According to the present thread, there are 3 options:
1) change the coil ends of the stock or current wires (anyone remember the good ole days when the ends simply twisted off and on?).
2) buy inexpensive wires or crimp-on kit, such as for late 90's GM 5.7 V8 from local auto parts retailer.
3) buy pre-made coil-swap kit from responsive banner advertiser (although I haven't seen it on their website yet).
There may also be two other possibilities:
4) use adapters on ends of current wires without permanently modifying them (I'm thinking of the snap-on type ceramic adapters that I've seen used for plugs in the past, although I'm not positive that those particular ones would work).
5) contact other sellers besides the banner advertiser who may also plan or have coil-swap wiring or kits available, but in the spirit of non-competition or monopoly, such names cannot be posted here or this thread might get deep-sixed again (at least that's my understanding -- or was that only to do with brackets? -- or did that only have to do with the sellers themselves posting and may we still collect and share info as long as we ourselves are not selling? -- this is a useful thread that many have worked hard to resurrect and I would NOT want it to disappear again!).


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

Anyone know the primary and secondary winding specs for the stock, MSD and/or Accel coils? I used to have this info but have since lost it. These specs can be used to determine high tension output voltage as well as current draw and the relative need for added resistance.


----------



## dossantos25 (Mar 18, 2005)

*Re: (kyle_b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kyle_b* »_so i started mine last night.
does anyone know if permatex ultra copper is non-conductive? i think im gonna seal up where the wires enter the coils with it.


















what is that white piece you have all your wires going into?


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (dossantos25)*

ballast resistor


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (German VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *German VR6* »_I have been running an ACCEL coil pack for the last 3 years without any problems. 
Why are you guys using a resistor for??

Have you been running the 6-post GNX type coil pack, or 3 2-post packs? No resistor, eh? Part number(s) please


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

MSD question: Someone said that the MSD spacers have 4 wires so the coil halves can be triggered separately in some non-VW applications, but the MSD coils only seem to have two prongs. What do the other two wires get wired to? I ask because I may use a J&S type ignition module with INDIVIDUAL cylinder knock control, so I'm wondering if that would need coils with different part numbers.


----------



## all-starr-me (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Ok, so I finally got some free time to finish it and get it on the engine. Here are some pics I took of the final assembly, I went back through an used 10 gauge wire but they need more room inside, so instead of the 5 half inch holes through the plate I just cut most of it out with a scroll saw then put it on.











I had to leave the coil off to attach the baseplate first since 2 bolts are under the coilpack so I had some slack in th ewires to move it out of the way, then I tucked the wires in and bolted the coil onto the baseplate. 







So I got it installed without a resistor and promptly drove it 75 miles, then another 25 or so to dyno today. it really pulls smoothly and very hard. I will keep updated on milage and such but today at the dyno I did do get 194 hp and 191 Ft/lbs so it deffinately helped some but i have a lot of other mods.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (all-starr-me)*

Bad ass....
I love that, it's a real clean setup.
(and taking pg 20 too)


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

Almost forgot to ask, what plug ends are you using?


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_I love that, it's a real clean setup.

x2
My L-bracket bracket isn't here yet, but now I'm liking the cleaner look of just using a plate. On the other hand, the stock coils are failing due to heat from the head, correct? So, although I like the clean look of keeping the new coil(s) down there on just a flat plate, it might not fully overcome the original problem (although obviously it will be simpler/cheaper to swap out if it does fail). Hell, I bet even the stock coil would last a lot better if it were mounted with some airspace such as on an L-bracket (unless the failures are due more to vibration, but I doubt it). On that note, I may mount the one of my three stock coils that hasn't cracked yet on an L-bracket just to see if the OEM coil lasts longer that way.


----------



## HOTSKILLET98 (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (Cubix)*

I don't know if the







was posted towards me but I am aware of the stupid blackholed thread. I am trying to learn the best way to convert to other coils which is the original topic of this thread. Aluminum plate is not comonly found in Rheinland Pfalz Germany which is why I asked someone to send me a piece. I don't think asking if someone to send me a scrap piece of aluminum would be grounds to black hole another "how to" thread. 
On that note, ther e is a goo point on using an L bracket vs a flush plate.


----------



## all-starr-me (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

I got Taylor HEI plug ends because they were black and $10 for 9 of them. I used some old wires I had around that were in good condition and cut the old ends off then crimped and soldered the ends on. wire 5 is a little tight but I may switch 4 and 5 around and see if it helps.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (o2bad455)*

The bracket really helps with heat, that's why the plastic casing on the coil fails. As for the ICM dying, I don't know if the vibration has anything to do with it or not.
I like the look of the flush mount, it's a really good OEM look. I did the L-bracket first but I'm looking to relocate the CP altogether.


----------



## possum1 (Aug 25, 2005)

*re*

Just got this mod up and running after problems with my original coil pack, but may have an issue...
A little background info- with the original coil pack, I was getting misfires on 2 and 5 until after 15 or 20 minutes of driving, then they would start firing and it would smooth out. This is after new plugs, wires and JB welding (I had some major cracks).
When I first wired up the MSDs, I used a 1.35 ohm resistor (only one I could fine locally) and the car would not start. I removed the resistor and got it running, but still misfiring on 2 and 5. After checking my wiring (unplugged and replugged the spade connector for the 2/5 coil) I reset the codes and tried it again. After a few minutes (no new codes) it finally started to smooth out. 
I drove around for a while and enjoyed the smooth idle and power. I am letting the car cool down try see if it will make a difference.
I am guessing that the ICM may be going bad, but does it make sense that it will smooth out after driving for awhile with either the old or new setup?








Anyone have similar experience?


----------



## kyle_b (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: re (possum1)*

as far as heat goes between the l-bracket and the plate, i think it really depends how you do it. my plate kind of shields the coils from the engine, either way, it still gets really hot in there.
hotskillet: im sorry if i sounded like a dick, but i wouldnt want to be the cause of another blackhole incident. and i really cant get ahold of more scrap, it was just a freak thing that they had some lying around, for all i know it wasnt even scrap.


_Quote, originally posted by *possum1* »_
Anyone have similar experience?









are you still getting misfires, or does it just idle kind of high and rough sounding. the SAI runs for the fist little bit from a cold start and makes it idle a bit high(850-950) and it sound a little rough.


----------



## possum1 (Aug 25, 2005)

*Re: re (kyle_b)*

I just tried to start it again and it was running rough. 
It is most likely the coil packs because it is throwing a CEL - random misfire, misfire on cyl 2 and cyl 5. Always 2/5. Although since it was not completely cold, it started to smooth out after a few minutes and the CEL stopped flashing.
Next step will be to recheck the wiring yet again and try to find a working used coilpack to see if it may be the ICM.


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: re (possum1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *possum1* »_I am guessing that the ICM may be going bad, but does it make sense that it will smooth out after driving for awhile with either the old or new setup?








Anyone have similar experience?









I have not had that experience yet, but let me ask you whether or not you reset the computer before firing up with the new MSDs? 
If not, I'll give VW the benefit of the doubt that the ECU is probably smart enough to cut fuel to any cylinder that hadn't been firing for a while so as to prevent raw fuel from getting to the cat. 
The computer may be able to reset itself. Have you tried starting and driving it a 2nd or 3rd time? If not, try resetting it (someone spelled out one way earlier in this thread) and let us know if that helps. 
EDIT: We posted in the same minute. Clearing the codes does not necessarily reset the fuel settings. I'd reset the entire ECU. 


_Modified by o2bad455 at 8:38 PM 9-3-2007_


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

To reset the ECU:
1. disconnect battery (at least the negative)
2. let sit a few hours OR turn on key and step on brake pedal for 30 seconds AND/OR turn off key and touch disconnected negative cable to the positive cable for 30 seconds. 
Although codes can be cleared one at a time or en mass using VAG-COM, for example, I don't think we completely reset the ECU using that tool (if I'm mistaken, someone please correct me).


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: re (possum1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *possum1* »_
Anyone have similar experience?









You need a new ICM and a new coil
When your oem coilpack cracks and you start JB welding it, it still changes the resistance to the ICM and burns it up. Granted the OE coil seems to be able to handle ALOT, the msd coils don't adapt to the changes as well, hence why we were hoping the resistor would work.
As a result, the msd coil will misfire and fault internally. Simply replacing the ICM in my case, didn't solve the issue since the coil (in my case 1/6) had already been unsuccessfully used with the faulty ICM for no more then a few minutes.
So get a new coil and new icm and it should work.
The ICM doesn't have to be NEW, infact I replaced mine with a 50,000k+ one on the tex for 20 bux, just the coil can't have any cracks.


As for the heat making the coil burst. I haven't seen that, but it does get really hot up against the engine, so if you are using a flat bracket design, consider using a phenolic spacer between the ICM and engine.
My coils all burst due to the raw amount of energy being dispersed through a bad icm
tear tear tear
But 4 msd coils and a new icm later, still runs hard!

Also, I remember seeing someone in this thread or another talk about extending the gap of the plugs causing increasing resistance on the coils. Seems logical to me and should be considered when gapping above .045".

Found some pics
Here is the wiring diagram again, just for those PMing me









And, from the grave
FrankenDub - My coil pack abo**ion: Learning what could go wrong


















_Modified by Cubix at 9:57 PM 9-3-2007_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: re (Cubix)*

oh and yes I did drive around like that for a week waiting for the new parts
and yes the coil did fall into the shift linkage and kept me from shifting
crazy


----------



## kyle_b (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: re (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_
My coils all burst due to the raw amount of energy being dispersed through a bad icm


yeah, coils cant handle being charged for more than a couple miliseconds, so if the icm becomes slow at opening and closing the ground connection, the coil sees power for too long and overheats.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: re (kyle_b)*

I should've taken pictures before I threw them out, talk about silly crazy


----------



## possum1 (Aug 25, 2005)

*Re: re (Cubix)*

Thanks for the tips, guys. I guess I will have to start hunting for a cheap working coil pack. 
I did pull the battery cable, but only for a few moments, probably not long enough to reset the ECU. I also got it too run nice and smooth for a while, but after shutting it down and letting it cool, the misfiring started up again. 
So, do you really think the MSD coil is trashed?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: re (possum1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *possum1* »_So, do you really think the MSD coil is trashed? 


Well thats what happened to me, and 2 other guys i know how ran into the same series of problems.
I don't know how at risk the ICM would be if the coil is bad, but even so, it would suck to get the new icm and then find out you need a new coil too.
If you could, buy both, and try the old coil and if it works, send the new coil back, but be careful not to fry the replacement ICM
*edit* 
Its also better to be safe then sorry
Those of you who remember when I followed Silentdub on this project I went through FOUR coils until I got it running (Totalling to 7 coils I bought)
ugh!


_Modified by Cubix at 11:16 PM 9-3-2007_


----------



## possum1 (Aug 25, 2005)

*Re: re (Cubix)*

You are right, I should get a ICM and a coil.
I just got back from driving around and after about 15 minutes it starts to smooth out. 
Unfortunately, it will probably cost another $100 to get this running. I have already felt the advantage of the setup so I can't go back to stock now! Besides, I have already cut my cables and put the GM plug ends on!
Oh, and a







to you and all those making this thread work!


_Modified by possum1 at 8:44 PM 9-3-2007_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: re (possum1)*

hahahahaha


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

I am slightly confused about the increase in spark energy for this mod. As I understand it, the ECU controls the duration of primary charge via the ICU. The ICU, in turn, actually does the current switching for the duration that the ECU commands (for the particular instantaneous engine conditions, particularly RPM). Assuming for a moment that the primary resistance of the replacement coils is the same as the stock coil (whether bare or with ballast resistor), the energy stored in the coil will be the same as it ever was. Due to the new coil's ratio of secondary resistance to primary resistance, the output voltage may be closer to 40KV than the stock 10KV. Correct so far? Okay, if the same energy is to be released at a higher voltage, the discharge current and/or duration is going to be significantly reduced. Why wouldn't this actually hurt performance? Although a higher voltage spark can in fact jump a larger spark plug gap, the spark energy seems to be the key factor in combustion efficiency, AFAIK. 
Now, since the primary resistance of an upgrade coil may be less than stock, especially if run without ballast, that's how more current is drawn through the ICU. In that case, there certainly can be more energy discharged by the coil secondary winding through the plugs. If this pushes the ICU beyond its rated power (whatever that actually is), I'd expect to either see them failing (which I don't) and/or not providing enough energy for a high voltage spark at high RPM. Does anyone happen to have any results for high RPM use?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (o2bad455)*

The MSD Coil can draw and store much more energy and release it as compared to the stock coil.
Speaking of which, since it's a wastes spark design, does only 20k v go to each plug?
Maybe it's time to to go to individual packs








Oh and I found my first problem!
Yea, so I was messing around today and accidently bumped one of the coils and it moved, so curiously I looked at my bolts and realized that months of hard driving caused all the nuts to loosen and fall off.
whoops!
Next time I'll use lock-tite or a double bolt it!
(I wouldn't use a lockwasher because it would dig into the bracket and potentially cause grounding)


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Did you use locknuts or standard? I used locknuts and do issues so far but then again haven't checked in a while...


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Should be about 40KV to each plug. The voltage is determined by secondary to primary resistance ratio. I believe that the voltage stays the same for wasted spark, but the current gets cut in half (that is, the 2 are in parallel rather than in series). 
EDIT: Individual packs would be great, but the stock ECU doesn't provide enough outputs, AFAIK. I think the stock coilpack is actually a wasted spark system too. 


_Modified by o2bad455 at 2:51 PM 9-5-2007_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (jamesn67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesn67* »_Did you use locknuts or standard? I used locknuts and do issues so far but then again haven't checked in a while...

I used standard nuts








A little oversight on my behalf, oh well, whats that cost, all of a dollar in new nuts








And no, the ICM doesn't provide enough outputs to do single packs, because even if you bought 6 pack and wired it in, and got that to work, two of the packs would shoot off at a time anyways.
but we can always dream!


----------



## SoFarKingFast (Jul 9, 2003)

*Re: (o2bad455)*


_Quote, originally posted by *o2bad455* »_I am slightly confused about the increase in spark energy for this mod. As I understand it, the ECU controls the duration of primary charge via the ICU. The ICU, in turn, actually does the current switching for the duration that the ECU commands (for the particular instantaneous engine conditions, particularly RPM). Assuming for a moment that the primary resistance of the replacement coils is the same as the stock coil (whether bare or with ballast resistor), the energy stored in the coil will be the same as it ever was. Due to the new coil's ratio of secondary resistance to primary resistance, the output voltage may be closer to 40KV than the stock 10KV. Correct so far? Okay, if the same energy is to be released at a higher voltage, the discharge current and/or duration is going to be significantly reduced. Why wouldn't this actually hurt performance? Although a higher voltage spark can in fact jump a larger spark plug gap, the spark energy seems to be the key factor in combustion efficiency, AFAIK. 
Now, since the primary resistance of an upgrade coil may be less than stock, especially if run without ballast, that's how more current is drawn through the ICU. In that case, there certainly can be more energy discharged by the coil secondary winding through the plugs. If this pushes the ICU beyond its rated power (whatever that actually is), I'd expect to either see them failing (which I don't) and/or not providing enough energy for a high voltage spark at high RPM. Does anyone happen to have any results for high RPM use? 

O2Bad, I'm on board with your thinking. 
Everyone is running these 12 and 10 gauge wires from the ICU prong to their coils for power. But the connector is still only getting it's 13V power from a small 12 gauge switched line to power ALL the coils. The Bentley shows the 5th pin as the power, and it comes straight from a *14 guage* line further down the path from a switched source. So, from bottleneck to bottlneck, the weakest link is the 14 guage off the back of the fuse panel somewhere.
I can only imagine the heat being generated by that small 14 guage line with these coils sucking current more effectively. I imagine that some poeple don't need a resistor since the small diameter of this line lends itself to providing some resistance itself. V/R = I, so if your 13V source is divided by your total resistance from the battery to the coils, the lower your resistance, the better the flow of the current to the coils, the more engergy they can store, and the better-than-stock-system, becomes even better. 
Has anyone thought of bypassing the ICU for the 13V supply to the coils? You still need a 13V supply to the ICU, to power the small solid state relay in there, but the power to the coils could come from a relay powered line off the battery with, say, 10 guage all the way to the coils.
As I read more, I edit more.








So, I may have missed it, but is the resistance of the coils the same as the stock? According to the American Wire Gauge (AWG) a 14 guage line can transmit 5.9 Amps, and a 12 guage line 9.3 amps. Is there a spec as to how many amps the coils need to generate a full 40,000W? As of now, it must be assumed that the stock ICU has some built in resistance, or VW would not have powered the coils with only a 14 guage wire. Has anyone done any thinking on the eletronics behind this scheme?
I don't mean to knock it by any means, I want to make my own. Just want to see if it can be done even better, and maybe also safer. 
Damn it took me a long time to read this whole thread...
I ordered a set of Magnacor wires yesterday, and now I find out they won't fit onto the MSD coils when I make them. I guess I can just call them and get them to custom make the ends with GM style connectors.
Thoughts?
Ryan

_Modified by SoFarKingFast at 2:03 AM 9-6-2007_


_Modified by SoFarKingFast at 2:16 AM 9-6-2007_


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (SoFarKingFast)*

Some of us are already running 14ga wire.
Also, the MSD's are listed as drop-in replacements for GM and
other applications. I am sure they do nut use 10ga wire for their
power source. I suppose they could draw directly from the battery
but I doubt it. So I am still unsure why these coils ever fail. Again
some of us have contacted MSD and they say a resistor is not needed.

I do like your thinking though and would love to see you or someone try it out.


----------



## kyle_b (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

been a few days, bump for this thread. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 250 miles trouble free http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

Some useful specs (please fill in any missing details that you might know):
Coil / Typical Price / Primary Resistance / Secondary Resistance / Maximum Voltage / Inductance / Turns Ratio / Output Energy
Stock VR6 Coil / $350 / unknown*6
MSD 8224 / $46*3 / 0.35ohm / 7.8Kohm / 40KV / 4.2mH / 80:1 / unknown
Accel 140017 / $39*3 / 0.5ohm / 8.0Kohm / 45KV / unknown / 75:1 / unknown
Accel Buick V6 140016 / $92 / 0.7ohm / 12.3Kohm / 42KV / unknown / 86:1 / unknown
JEGs 40120 / $32*3 / 0.36ohm / 6.2Kohm / 40KV / unknown / 87:1 / 56MJ
I've been trying to figure out how an ignition coil actually works. Although it is a type of transformer, the output voltage is more than would be expected based only on the turns ratio. Here's what someone said about determining the maximum output voltage:
"If you apply a step function to it (i.e. switch some voltage V across the primary, the current is time related by: i(t) = V.t/Lp If you dump a capacitor into it, the surge impedance is SQRT(Lp/CP) and the peak current assuming no losses and no energy transfer to the secondary will be i = V.SQRT(Cp/Lp)"
I haven't quite made sense of that yet. 
EDITed to update JEGs coil data.


_Modified by o2bad455 at 2:09 AM 9-12-2007_


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 5, 2007)

Here is the setup coming togeather! Version one! The next version wont use the stock ICM!
































...and here is the template for the bracket! Coming togeather quite nice if I dont say so my self!


----------



## Volksthusiast (Mar 12, 2007)

maybe someone should throw it past MSD to make this set up? instead of having to risk your sixer just on a fubared wire or two


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Volksthusiast)*

There probably isn't the market out there that they need to justify the expense, time and design. 
Besides, what's the fun in tweaking something if there isn't a risk that you're going to blow it up?


----------



## Volksthusiast (Mar 12, 2007)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_There probably isn't the market out there that they need to justify the expense, time and design. 
Besides, what's the fun in tweaking something if there isn't a risk that you're going to blow it up?

Cause i dont have the money to take risks


----------



## 18JettaPower (Oct 24, 2004)

Dont worry complete kit's are coming...
From what I hear


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (18JettaPower)*


_Quote, originally posted by *18JettaPower* »_Dont worry complete kit's are coming...
From what I hear


I feel bittersweet about that.
When Bob first started this it was all people who worked things out on their own and problem solved and searched for answers
I already get tons of PMs all the time from people asking me for 'all the info', which is clearly in this 20 page thread, most of it on the first page even.
Once it becomes a bolt on... I guess it just becomes another one of those things..
but then again, it shows progress.
Finally, whats the point of selling a 'kit'? Isn't it enough of a kit already? We have pre made brackets and wires all you do is supply the icm and wiring, doesn't get much easier then that! Man I have to crimp my own ends, fashion my own bracket (and then a better one I got from bob) and spec out all my own stuff.
lucky kids


----------



## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Look at all of the R & D that u put into this project. And now all of a sudden somebody is going to making a complete kit. So is the person that is making these kit giving you any of the profits for all of the money u and others put into this project.


----------



## Shikaroka (Dec 12, 2002)

*Re: (onebdgti)*

I'm going to try this out on my Corrado when I get her back together.
I'll have to do some back to back dyno runs to determine if I can see any appreciable differences.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Shikaroka)*

I'm in full support of the DIY. And Cubix nailed it on the head, this is basically a kit that needs assembly. When you take the assembly away, it's no longer a kit.


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

If I buy the new "kit" does it come with someone to install if for me








Couldn't resist. It's really an easy mod for those who haven't done it.
Requiring only simple tools and pretty basic knowledge. Of course we still don't really understand why we have had a couple of failures and
if it's ICM related or not. Which is still bugging me. But based on the
number if miles many of us have I guess at this point I am more willing to say it's a wiring issue but I'd really like to know for sure.


----------



## IwannaGTI (Jul 12, 2001)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

Id say its an ICM issue. I had 1 coil go and misfires on cyl 1+6. I bought a new coil ($100 in the classifieds) and wired it back up with a new coil, same wiring no difference, and it works perfect and has for the past ~3-5k miles http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (IwannaGTI)*

I'd just be a shame if the results of the projected start getting skewed by people who are just want to pick up a kit, not think, and try to install it without even knowing what an alen key is and then acting like hot shtuff.
Kind of like a new diver who gets in an accident attempting dives which they don't have a clue about and skewing the overall success of tech diving


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (jamesn67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesn67* »_If I buy the new "kit" does it come with someone to install if for me










Yes, a trained monkey does come with the product
When they are done, they will clean your bathroom
your choice of blue or pink underwear. And when it's done, you just throw it out!!!!
(Orangutan sold separately) 

edit:
I'm stuck in the detroit airport since 6am until 4pm now
WTH!!!!


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Now that's a deal. I better make sure to get one now


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (jamesn67)*


_Quote »_your choice of blue or pink underwear. And when it's done, you just throw it out!!!!

Could I get the 'bondage gear' upgrade? I'm not out for anything twisted, I just think it'd be hilarious to post up a pic of a monkey with a gimp mask and chaps wiring my coilpack together.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

Yes, but theres a backorder on that one








Wow did this ever take an odd turn








edit:
Oh yea, so my shop passed me on inspection without looking at stuff under my hood because they've never seen this kind of set up and didn't want to mess with it
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by Cubix at 1:22 PM 9-17-2007_


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (Cubix)*

To try and get us back on track...anyone see the new Eurotuner?
Take a look at the coilpack set-up on the 24V GTI. They are using 
standalone but 3 seperate coils. Not sure of the coil make though.


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 5, 2007)

well I'm sorry but I thought people would like a higher quality bracket for half the price + shipping ofcourse







, and to have a ore mad ick system with ore made wires if I'm worng someone tell me now!


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Silly question, but what drives the individual coils on a 24v Vr6?
Is there an external ICM or what??
The major problem here being that us that have had our ICM die, still need to buy a VW coilpack if we wanted to do this.


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*

The individual coils on most cars have the 'icm' built in.
It can also be called a power output stage. According to a
VW tech manual and some other sources it's main purpose
is to take the weak signal from the ecu and increase it so that
it has enough power to trigger the coils.


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 5, 2007)

Icm's can be replaced pretty easy, and im sure that there will be a lot of things people can come up with to support the effort


_Modified by [email protected] at 10:31 PM 9-17-2007_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

My skin just crawled at the thought of us getting blackholed


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (jamesn67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesn67* »_The individual coils on most cars have the 'icm' built in.
It can also be called a power output stage. According to a
VW tech manual and some other sources it's main purpose
is to take the weak signal from the ecu and increase it so that
it has enough power to trigger the coils.

Not sure I follow, I'm slow today.
The 24v | 1.8T style 'on the plug' coil takes a signal from the ecu? There is not a ICM / ICU between the ECU and coil?


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 5, 2007)

that is cause it is built in to coil itself!


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*

I believe, if you look at the wires they have their own power stage on it
I would actually love to see some pictures of how the 24v is wired up because I know it's different but I can't find info on the net


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (Cubix)*

That's what I'm wondering.. if they have their own power stage, our ECU is already sending out the weak signal, right? 
The wasted spark setup should not matter, we just fire two individual coils at once... still wasted spark.
What would prevent this from working? The coils might not fit through the manifold?
Just thinking here, since the real road block for the msd swap is when the oem ICU dies...


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*

well because of the wasted spark design on our engines, theres really no benefit to have individual coils (of course i may be wrong).


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Dead ICM = $250 coilpack. . . See where I'm at? That is the prohibitive point of the entire MSD swap! My ICM died. I MUST (did) buy a oem style coilpack. after that, why would I tear it apart and do MSD?
The flaw with the MSD setup talked about here is the reliance on the OEM ICM. If the individual 24v style coils take a weak signal directly, what prevents us from using them?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*

true, the bad part is that it relies on the oem icm
however, I picked up a used pack from the classifieds for 50 bucks, as long as theres not cracks and stuff the icm should work and then the msd coils will prevent it from dying again
my theory is that the icm is dying because the coil breaks and grounds out causing a massive release of energy and weakening the icm.


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_I believe, if you look at the wires they have their own power stage on it
I would actually love to see some pictures of how the 24v is wired up because I know it's different but I can't find info on the net

the COP units most likely have an insulated gate bipolar transistor of some type in them. I played around with them a bit using the vb921zv ic chip that is used in megasquirt systems. I was able to make it spark on the bench, but can't get it to work on the car for some reason.. I didn't have any test equipment at the time, so I couldnt do much else with it. I was able to make it spark with all the way down to a 2.1?v square wave, and the saturation time is pretty low, so it should have worked on the car.
the whole project kinda got lost in the shuffle, and I havent done anything with it in a while. when I get some time, I plan to dig into it a bit more. I recently got some electronics equipment in (oscilliscope, pulse / function generators, and a variable dc power supply) to mess around with this stuff some more


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (Slayer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slayer* »_
the COP units most likely have an insulated gate bipolar transistor of some type in them. I played around with them a bit using the vb921zv ic chip that is used in megasquirt systems. I was able to make it spark on the bench, but can't get it to work on the car for some reason.. I didn't have any test equipment at the time, so I couldnt do much else with it. I was able to make it spark with all the way down to a 2.1?v square wave, and the saturation time is pretty low, so it should have worked on the car.
the whole project kinda got lost in the shuffle, and I havent done anything with it in a while. when I get some time, I plan to dig into it a bit more. I recently got some electronics equipment in (oscilliscope, pulse / function generators, and a variable dc power supply) to mess around with this stuff some more

Yes, you were getting up to some good stuff. Hope you cand find time to do some more.
As for the 24V set-up. They are using a stand alone system on that so the wiring will be different. I believe if we went to the dis-4 system we could also use individual coils as I've seen pics of it...in fact it was in our original post that got black holed. I am unfortunately not sure about the differences between the wasted spark coils versus the individual. They both need a power output stage to fire. The question is does the ecu in the different applications do a different job? The circuitry in the ICM that I've seen leads me to believe it does more than amplifiy the signal. But at the end of the day I am a mechanical engineer not electrical...Which is why I designed the bracket and nothing else


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (jamesn67)*

Here is some more info on that 24V...
It uses an Elctromotive TEC3 standalone. Scroll to the bottom of this
link and see the coils that are included...looks very familiar.
http://www.emi.cc/products/tec3.html


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (jamesn67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesn67* »_Here is some more info on that 24V...
It uses an Elctromotive TEC3 standalone. Scroll to the bottom of this
link and see the coils that are included...looks very familiar.
http://www.emi.cc/products/tec3.html

That's cool, but I'm talking stock. Don't the 1.8T and 24v VR6 both use COP stock?


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*

I know the 1.8T uses them not sure on the 24V.
I am refering to the 24V VR6 engine in the new eurotuner that uses
the Electromotive set-up with MSD wires no less. Looks very similar to
what we are doing on the coil side anyways. 3 waste spark coils. In reference to an earlier post about getting voltage directly from the battery that is what it appears Electromotive
is doing. Here is a link to their installation manual.
http://www.directignition.com/pdf_files/tec3r.pdf

Let me amend this after reading some more. Looks like it still get's power through the ignition circuit. They are supplying 9 amps to the coil.


_Modified by jamesn67 at 10:20 AM 9-19-2007_


----------



## prracer6 (Sep 17, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (VertigoGTI)*

My job has been slow all day, so i decided to get on here and look around. This past weekend i Bought a vr6 motor, trans, and all the goodies to swap into my 92 jetta.
I came across this freakin sweet thread. NICE WORK FELLOW VDUBBERS.
Anyways to the point. Im thinkin of running the setup in the pics bellow. Would i have to put that resistor thats been mentioned in numerous pages on this thread on terminal 15?









_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_


----------



## MaSeDoGG (Jan 22, 2004)

yes, the resistor goes between the power (red) and the 15 terminal.


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (prracer6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *prracer6* »_My job has been slow all day, so i decided to get on here and look around. This past weekend i Bought a vr6 motor, trans, and all the goodies to swap into my 92 jetta.
I came across this freakin sweet thread. NICE WORK FELLOW VDUBBERS.
Anyways to the point. Im thinkin of running the setup in the pics bellow. Would i have to put that resistor thats been mentioned in numerous pages on this thread on terminal 15?










Just bear in mind that set-up is using stand alone engine management and not the stock ICM. I think someone indicated
you cannot run indivicual coils with the stock ICM.


----------



## prracer6 (Sep 17, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (jamesn67)*

Who sells a stand alone for my application?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (prracer6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *prracer6* »_Who sells a stand alone for my application?

MSD does!
I think the DIS-4 works with our engine?
I honestly don't remember, and I'm still whoa from last nights celebrations


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (N204life)*

Hey
Peter here from Australia. I have a 94 VR6 Golf and I'm about to install an MSD DIS-4 (part no 62152) and the GM two tower coils (part no 8224). 
I've been in contact with MSD and they have said I should also use two Tach Adapter (part no 8912) for my application.
Can you give me some more details about your setup please. Did you use the Tach Adapters in your setup? Were did you mount the DIS-4 box in your car?....
I should have mine done soon and I hope to post some pictures here when done.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Peter (ADELDUBBER)


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*

I believe many of us are using this set up on coilpack cars w/o a dizzy
so you might need to post your question in it's own thread
however, i'm sure there are some who will chime in


----------



## RaraK69 (Jan 16, 2001)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sc_rufctr* »_Hey
Peter here from Australia. I have a 94 VR6 Golf and I'm about to install an MSD DIS-4 (part no 62152) and the GM two tower coils (part no 8224). 
I've been in contact with MSD and they have said I should also use two Tach Adapter (part no 8912) for my application.
Can you give me some more details about your setup please. Did you use the Tach Adapters in your setup? Were did you mount the DIS-4 box in your car?....
I should have mine done soon and I hope to post some pictures here when done.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Peter (ADELDUBBER)


there are posts regarding running the dis-4(distributorless ignition) MSD box, yes two tach adapters are needed if i remember correctly.
do a search you should find what you need.


----------



## pubahs (Apr 2, 2002)

Not sure if this has been asked.. but.. can I use my stock wires, and simply recrimp the ends with the MSD plug ends? Will the lengths be alright and will 7mm be enough or would it be better to run 8mm?


----------



## dossantos25 (Mar 18, 2005)

*Re: (pubahs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pubahs* »_Not sure if this has been asked.. but.. can I use my stock wires, and simply recrimp the ends with the MSD plug ends? Will the lengths be alright and will 7mm be enough or would it be better to run 8mm?


you should be ok, your not really pulling the wires that much more (unless you mount the coils so that the posts are beside the valve cover. 8mm would be a bit better as your now using a much higher voltage then stock. 
what are you guys using to hook up power and ground to the MSD coils? i tried using a female spade end but its not fitting into the bottom... i wanna make these removable in case a coil takes a crap.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (dossantos25)*

I had to slightly butcher a female spade connector to get mine going. Once it was solid, I just crimped it a little bit and then I used some heat shrink on it. I think some people use silicone to seal the connections but I think the heatshrink works better. Silicone is a PITA to cut and remove when it really sets in.


----------



## piran21 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

Do you guys think we can use this coil as an alternative to the MSD 8824?
http://store.summitracing.com/...w=sku
anyone know the Accel equivalent?


_Modified by piran21 at 2:58 AM 9-25-2007_


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (piran21)*

Yes, it's a dual post so it'll work just fine. The Accel version is this guy right here.








Accel 1986-98 GM Super DIS Coil


----------



## piran21 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

So the summit racing one is the cheapest one yet!


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (piran21)*

I would guess so, if you're wanting to do 3 dual posts individually. I went with the GN CP because it was $90 and was already halfway put together. It might look a bit stockish (which I prefer) but it gets the job done!


----------



## HOTSKILLET98 (Mar 12, 2002)

I've been through all 22 pages of this thread several times but I Iwanted to confirm that the recommended size/guage wire to use is 10 or 12 guage. I found some nice wire from a local shop that is shielded up to 400 celsius and will support up to 24V. Is this type wire ok? I have all other hardware ready to roll I just need the right wire & connectors.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (HOTSKILLET98)*

Honestly, I think 14G should do it. 12 is more than enough and 10 is just plain overkill.


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

Yeah, I and a few others used 14ga


----------



## DaBeeterEater (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: (piran21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *piran21* »_So the summit racing one is the cheapest one yet!

actually i found mine on amazon.com, and they were cheaper also if you have the hookup at napa you can get them for 38 each, but it takes a while to get them,

also who is running vrt and what are you gaping the plugs at, 
i have the accell ones and i have to gap them at .22 to keep from blowing out the spark, which is kind of wierd should be able to open it up a little more than that


----------



## zcxerxes (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: (DaBeeterEater)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DaBeeterEater* »_
actually i found mine on amazon.com, and they were cheaper also if you have the hookup at napa you can get them for 38 each, but it takes a while to get them,

also who is running vrt and what are you gaping the plugs at, 
i have the accell ones and i have to gap them at .22 to keep from blowing out the spark, which is kind of wierd should be able to open it up a little more than that

i'm a .25 gap on my vrt without any problems . as far as the gauge and type of wire to use i would reccomend 12g machine tool wire. its good for the high/low temp situations and the coating is oil, coolant, and steam rated. you can get it at home depot for only a few ¢ more per foot. and i used slighly modded spade connectors that i trimmed the sides and put a bend in it from tip to crimp part to make it hold better in the coil. as well as a small dab of silicone to shield the elements


----------



## piran21 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: (zcxerxes)*

Another cheap alternative for a coil could be GM part# D-555. Like $15 each on ebay.


_Modified by piran21 at 4:39 AM 9-30-2007_


----------



## IwannaGTI (Jul 12, 2001)

*Re: (piran21)*

im gapped at .44 on my VRT running 15 psi on BKR7E's http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## possum1 (Aug 25, 2005)

Finally got a used coil pack and swapped the ICM. Everything is fine now. I did not replace the MSD coil for 2/5 yet as it did not have any cracks. I suppose it could have been damaged by the bad ICM, but I am going to chance it for now. 
It is nice to have a smooth running VR6 again.















Next item to work on will be that damn secondary air pump.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (possum1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *possum1* »_Next item to work on will be that damn secondary air pump.









ugh...
Lemme know how you fix that one. I need to get that taken care of as well.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_
ugh...
Lemme know how you fix that one. I need to get that taken care of as well.


Kick it








I hear you can cut the top of the combi valve off, clean it, then jb weld it back together
but thats for another thread










_Modified by Cubix at 9:06 PM 10-2-2007_


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_
Kick is








I hear you can cut the top of the combi valve off, clean it, then jb weld it back together
but thats for another thread









Awesome. Thanks for volunteering to start that new post with pics.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

Sweeeeeet!
actually, I will, because my combi valve sucks less then a broken vacuum cleaner (get it, it's broken...)
I want to do a full rebuild diy, I mean EVERYTHING, since i'll be going through all of it from tires to interior... Just need more money and time


----------



## HOTSKILLET98 (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: (HOTSKILLET98)*

Just want to confirm that 15 terminal from ICM can be wired to either the left or right connection of the new coilpacks right? As long as they are consistant across the 3 of them?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (HOTSKILLET98)*

Technically they don't even have to be consistent,
just keep them that way for your benefit
left or right is just fine


----------



## dossantos25 (Mar 18, 2005)

*Re: (Cubix)*

got mine in, noticed a smoother idle and overall drive ability but for some reason the car feels slower. time to hook up the scan port and check it out.


----------



## Mk3GtiVrt (Jan 10, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

i want to do this mod so bad. any ideas on the total price for it.


----------



## dossantos25 (Mar 18, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Mk3GtiVrt)*

3 coils are roughly 80 bucks, the bracket is another 80. the ends i got from taylor came with the boots as well for 14 bucks. use your current wires can save you money or buy new ones. your going to spend probably more then you would on a brand new OEM coilpack but this option means not worry about a crack in 50-100k.


----------



## vr6freak (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (dossantos25)*

im rockin it and love it.
less than 65 bucks into it including the coil. bracket. and plug ends.


----------



## MKII16v (Oct 23, 1999)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (vr6freak)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6freak* »_im rockin it and love it.
less than 65 bucks into it including the coil. bracket. and plug ends.

and its not red.....


----------



## DJP944 (Oct 21, 2005)

my resistor burnt up the other day i believe.....car wouldnt start so i eliminated it from the circuit.....ran good afterwords....any thoughts on running the setup without an inline resistor?


----------



## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: (DJP944)*

I've been running mine with no resistor for bout 15k miles and no problem.


----------



## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: (onebdgti)*

I just noticed that gruvenparts has a little banner on the bottom of the page.









I guess we can say the word "GRUVEN" now without it going to *******
I guess money does make the different in the world, even speech isn't free.



_Modified by silentdub at 2:31 PM 10-22-2007_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (silentdub)*

Its being sold @ fourseasonstuning, which is a sponsor, so yay.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote »_
I just noticed that gruvenparts has a little banner on the bottom of the page.

HA! I saw that a little while ago. I wondered to myself, "When will silentdub be back?"


----------



## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

*Re: (DJP944)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DJP944* »_....any thoughts on running the setup without an inline resistor?


Yep, it works fine.


----------



## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_
HA! I saw that a little while ago. I wondered to myself, "When will silentdub be back?"

all that crap was over a few dollars.
I have been over at mk1love.com
picking up some ideas for my rabbit.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: ('dubber)*

*Quick question for those with the Grand National CP*
Which plug ends are you using? It's a minor detail but the crappy ones that I have on don't really fit right.
Here's the ones I'm looking at.
*MSD*
















*ACCEL*








*Taylor*


----------



## vr6freak (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

heres what honestly worked best for me.
i had the eurosport wires, and just re used the ends off of there after i cut them and crimped the new metal piece on. but that was with 8mm wires.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (vr6freak)*

I have 8mm wire too. The ends I have now were ones that I got off an old set of wires at the autoshop down the street. They were good for 3 months, 2 are cracked, 1 is stretched and the other ones are just plain ugly.


----------



## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_I have 8mm wire too. The ends I have now were ones that I got off an old set of wires at the autoshop down the street. They were good for 3 months, 2 are cracked, 1 is stretched and the other ones are just plain ugly.



Those wires and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.


----------



## all-starr-me (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

I used the taylor ends because they were black and $9 for 9 of them. I crimped and soldered them onto some old wires. been holding up great. the MSD's were gray which didn't fit the look I wanted. 
my number 5 wire is real tight so I may take another longer old wire and cut it so it has some slack in it and make a new one with one of the extra ends I have. of course if you don't run the wire covers its not as tight, and I have been trying to find a schrick intake which will also solve the problem.


----------



## audisnapr (Jul 31, 2004)

*Re: (piran21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *piran21* »_Another cheap alternative for a coil could be GM part# D-555. Like $15 each on ebay.

_Modified by piran21 at 4:39 AM 9-30-2007_

is there any confirmation that these work and have been holding up under testing?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...ZWD1V
<<edit>> also, are there other brands that local stores carry that would do the trick, ie: duralast from autozone? I see autozone also carries Accel, but they are 57/ea










_Modified by audisnapr at 1:00 PM 10-23-2007_


----------



## 708VR6 (May 20, 2006)

*Re: (audisnapr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *audisnapr* »_
is there any confirmation that these work and have been holding up under testing?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...ZWD1V
<<edit>> also, are there other brands that local stores carry that would do the trick, ie: duralast from autozone? I see autozone also carries Accel, but they are 57/ea









_Modified by audisnapr at 1:00 PM 10-23-2007_

the GM coils will work, just so you know, the Accel and MSD coils are direct replacements for the GM coils, but, a higher voltage performance type


_Modified by 708VR6 at 12:11 PM 10-23-2007_


----------



## TOPLEVEL (May 8, 2005)

Well i have an aftermarket set on mine. Standard part number dr39x. Wich is the same as ac delco d555. They work. But im under boost and i cant gap them more than .022 for 9lbs of boost. So im getting rid of them and getting the MSD's
I was thinking save a couple bucks. But id didnt work out right. So just get the msd's or the accels.


_Modified by TOPLEVEL at 11:34 AM 10-23-2007_


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (TOPLEVEL)*


_Quote »_Those wires and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.

Oh, I know








I just used the ends since I couldn't get any at the local AutoJoke. The ends went onto my Magnecors.


----------



## audisnapr (Jul 31, 2004)

*Re: (TOPLEVEL)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TOPLEVEL* »_Well i have an aftermarket set on mine. Standard part number dr39x. Wich is the same as ac delco d555. They work. But im under boost and i cant gap them more than .022 for 9lbs of boost. So im getting rid of them and getting the MSD's
I was thinking save a couple bucks. But id didnt work out right. So just get the msd's or the accels.

_Modified by TOPLEVEL at 11:34 AM 10-23-2007_

good deal. the reason I was asking was because we are under the gun to make sure our track rado is ready for its first track event this friday. I was gonna try and bang this out in the next two nights but don't have time to wait on shipping from places like summit, etc. Was hoping a local Autozone or equal had something like this in stock that would suffice. Having done all the research and listened to feedback such as yours, I think I will wait to get some Accel or MSD's and do it right the first time. We found a lead on a very cheap new OE coilpack that should get us through the day.
thanks for setting me straight. I def. want to do this right, but also don't want our current coil to crap out on its first outing.

BTW, anyone know what implications are associated with changing the factory ignition with regards to SCCA or NASA ruling? Is it allowed?


----------



## kmg108 (Jan 24, 2003)

*Re: (piran21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *piran21* »_Do you guys think we can use this coil as an alternative to the MSD 8824?
http://store.summitracing.com/...w=sku

This is my question as well. I like these because they are black (read specs on the link), support the 40kV output and they're cheap BUT what the link doesnt say is the turn ratios for this unit. I notice the turn ratios for msd and Accel and the Grand National unit range from 75:1-85:1 ratio. The summit coil in the link is 151:1 turn ratio according to the Summit catalog (I dont know why the turn ratio isnt listed on the link). Will this turn ratio be a problem? I think my question could be answered easier if anyone knows the turn ratio of the stock vr6 coilpack so we can compare apples to apples so to speak. All help appreciated. I may just go with MSD since those are proven to work and the summit coils arent immediately available according to the link. I did read about turn ratios on another site but it states to avoid too high of a ratio. I really dont know what that means without knowing the stock coilpack specs.


_Modified by kmg108 at 7:25 AM 10-24-2007_


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (kmg108)*

Where are you seeing this turn ratio at?


----------



## kmg108 (Jan 24, 2003)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_Where are you seeing this turn ratio at?

It's in the Summit Racing catalog that I get every few months. They have these coils listed and it specifically gives the turn ratios associated with the coils (I have no idea why it isnt list3ed with the other data about the coil on the link). The coil in the above link, and few other "Summit brand" coils, all have 151:1 turn ratio, which is double that of the msd and accel coils. It just has me thinking what that could mean for this project. I dont know if thats good or bad but the turn ratio gets at the number of windings on the primary vs the secondary of each coil. Generally a higher turn ratio is better, but thats only true to a certain point. I just want to know what that point is for the stock ECU and ICM.


----------



## kmg108 (Jan 24, 2003)

*Re: (kmg108)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_Where are you seeing this turn ratio at?

Also, here's some links that explain the importance of the proper ignition coil turn ratio. I'm hoping someone will chime it to help explain it because it makes no sense to me. As of right now, I still want to know the turn ratio of the stock vr6 coilpack. Note... the second link below seems to be more informative than the first.
http://www.tispecialty.com/articles/article4.pdf
http://www.hotrod.com/techarti...tech/


----------



## GruvenParts.com (Jul 31, 2007)

*Re: (kmg108)*

Hey guys, after long break we are selling on Vortex.
If you are interested in the coil pack bracket, you can buy from us or Four Seasons Tuning.
The part is very durable and fits great, gives clean factory look.
We also want to supply the parts turn key - the harness and MSD coils so you have everything needed in 1 box. If you guys are interested in that, pls get with me by phone or email (my PMs are screwed). We'd like to work with someone who knows this inside and out to get a kit built.

*CNC Pressed MSD Coil Pack Brackets MK3 and MK4 VR6*
Use this CNC formed, powder coated Aerospace grade aluminum bracket to mount your new MSD coils on MK3 or MK4 VR6 engines. We all know how poorly the OEM Beru units hold up - so get serious about your VR6 ignition and step up to MSD! Leave the cheaply made, overpriced Beru coils for the competition!


----------



## kmg108 (Jan 24, 2003)

*Re: (GruvenParts.com)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GruvenParts.com* »_The part is very durable and fits great, gives clean factory look.
We also want to supply the parts turn key - the harness and MSD coils so you have everything needed in 1 box. If you guys are interested in that, pls get with me by phone or email (my PMs are screwed). We'd like to work with someone who knows this inside and out to get a kit built.

I'm very interested in doing this and theres really nothing holding me back, except determining the best coil versus just getting what everyone else is using. You mention your bracket is a factory look. I think it looks great but it isnt a "factory" look since the coils are mounted horizontally versus the factory vertical mount. I do think your way looks really good, but I have a turbo and my intercooler and piping wont allow this particular mounting style. I'm sending you an email with further discussion of brackets since that seems to be a no-no topic for the thread.



_Modified by kmg108 at 11:29 AM 10-27-2007_


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (kmg108)*


_Quote »_I think it looks great but it isnt a "factory" look since the coils are mounted horizontally versus the factory vertical mount.

Now you're just splitting hairs...
Honestly, one of the reasons why the coilpack case fails is because it sits on the head. It get all of the heat (cheap plastic case expands) and cools (cheap plastic case contracts) as if it were part of the engine block. Taking the CP away from that area and making it a bit more remote would help it last a lot longer.
If you wanted to, you could simply cut the part of the spacer off and kept the ICM intact, you could pretty much put the coilpack wherever you want. It'd be easier if we could get a completely new ICM. Then we wouldn't need the spacer at all.


----------



## GruvenParts.com (Jul 31, 2007)

*Re: (kmg108)*

Sorry, it looks BETTER than factory








And it WORKS better than factory too, which is more important anyways


----------



## kmg108 (Jan 24, 2003)

*Re: (GruvenParts.com)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GruvenParts.com* »_ it WORKS better than factory too, which is more important anyways









This is the only part I care about on a high horsepower car. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Space concerns are the only reason I even brought it up. There are options that will allow me to get around that though.


----------



## GruvenParts.com (Jul 31, 2007)

*Re: (kmg108)*

We'd be happy to design a bracket which holds packs vertical, or whatever orientation ppl want. 
Send sketch via email to me so we can look it over. We'll get you whatever you want


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (GruvenParts.com)*

*WARNING: OT MATERIAL!!!!*
Out of curiousity, does Gruven need a CAD/Solidworks/3D designer? I'm probably moving to Atlanta in the next few months.


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

what is up with MSD 6302 coil ignitors?


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*

Do you mean these: 
http://www.msdignition.com/pdf/6304.pdf
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...ZWD1V
I just came across this in a MSD two step thread, is this a replacement for the stock ICM?


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (VRdublove)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRdublove* »_Do you mean these: 
http://www.msdignition.com/pdf/6304.pdf
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...ZWD1V
I just came across this in a MSD two step thread, is this a replacement for the stock ICM?

According to MSD this (part # 6304) WILL NOT fire the coils without using a DIS-4+ as well.
I am tempted to try it without my DIS-4 connected.... I bet you it will work... At $100US I think it's a bargain... Well worth a try
BTW: This means that it is possible to have a complete MSD ignition system from the trigger output of your Bosche computer to the spark plugs.... Just imagine putting that to bed forever...


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*

I just picked up a DIS 4 the other day, and I am already running the MSD coils, so this piece is the ticket. I would love to completely eliminate that whole problem area.


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (VRdublove)*

this msd stuff does look promising http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif if it does what it says, then this is what we've been waiting for.. and I'd rather spend $100 on something like this than keep trying to figure out how to make something workable because I haven't found it yet


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sc_rufctr* »_
According to MSD this (part # 6304) WILL NOT fire the coils without using a DIS-4+ as well.
I am tempted to try it without my DIS-4 connected.... I bet you it will work... At $100US I think it's a bargain... Well worth a try
BTW: This means that it is possible to have a complete MSD ignition system from the trigger output of your Bosche computer to the spark plugs.... Just imagine putting that to bed forever...


Yes, the 6304 is a signal converter FOR USE WITH DIS-x
I want to know more about 6302, COIL IGNITERS








msd seems to have no info about them except the very vague reference to them in the description of the 6304


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevwithoutacorrado* »_
Yes, the 6304 is a signal converter FOR USE WITH DIS-x
I want to know more about 6302, COIL IGNITERS








msd seems to have no info about them except the very vague reference to them in the description of the 6304


I've been scouring the net and haven't found much myself.. I think they are new enough that noone really has any info on them. one thing though is that they are 2 channel, so it would require two of them since we need 3 channels to fire 3 coils


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (Slayer)*

Ok, so the 6304 is a signal converter for use with the DIS systems, but the ICM will work also with the DIS systems and MSD coils? And to use the MSD signal converter I assume the wires from the ecu have to be spliced, correct? Has anyone confirmed whether or not the tach adapters are necessary to use the DIS-4 system? 
For now, I was planning on trying to run the ECU>Stock ICM>DIS-4>MSD coils>NGK plugs with no tach adapters or MSD signal converter (6304). This should work, right?


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (VRdublove)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRdublove* »_Ok, so the 6304 is a signal converter for use with the DIS systems, but the ICM will work also with the DIS systems and MSD coils? And to use the MSD signal converter I assume the wires from the ecu have to be spliced, correct? Has anyone confirmed whether or not the tach adapters are necessary to use the DIS-4 system? 
For now, I was planning on trying to run the ECU>Stock ICM>DIS-4>MSD coils>NGK plugs with no tach adapters or MSD signal converter (6304). This should work, right? 

There are people using dis4 on vr6's 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3455841
http://s229.photobucket.com/al...6.jpg



_Modified by Slayer at 4:14 PM 11-8-2007_


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*

This is an email I got from MSD this morning.... Looks like we need to do some experimenting.
Sir,
Thank you for your interest in our products.
1. Can you please confirm that \\\"PN 6304\\\" will work when interfaced with a \\\"Bosche OBD1\\\" computer in my car just like the stock VW \\\"ICM - ignitor\\\".
There are no guarantees. You can try adding it but we cannot guarantee its function will be the same or be compatible.
2. Also, Will I still have to use the two MSD \\\"Tach\\\" adapters as well as \\\"PN 6304\\\"?
Probably, the ECU is looking for a high voltage kick back signal that isn’t present when using the DIS-4. The tach adapter recreates the high voltage kick back signal.
3. And finally. How much does your PN 6304 cost? (I will be ordering this item through your Australian distributor)
Since you are in Australia you may want to contact Rocket Industries for pricing and availability. We do not sell directly to the public.
Rocket Industries-
General Sales
Ph: (02) 8825 1900 
Fax: (02) 8825 1911
Email: [email protected]
Web: http://www.rocketind.com

Thank you,
MSD Tech


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*

For those of you who don't want to cut your coilpack bolts or try and space them out, the thread diameter and pitch is M6-1.0. I bought some at 50mm length, I'll post how well they fit.
I didn't use the Gruvenparts bracket, but I made one out of sheetmetal and it should be about the same thickness. It's been working great so far. The only problem is that it was hard to bend (stainless steel.)


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_For those of you who don't want to cut your coilpack bolts or try and space them out, the thread diameter and pitch is M6-1.0. I bought some at 50mm length, I'll post how well they fit.
I didn't use the Gruvenparts bracket, but I made one out of sheetmetal and it should be about the same thickness. It's been working great so far. The only problem is that it was hard to bend (stainless steel.)

I'm making my own bracket too,. Could you post a pic of yours please?


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*

Sure. I'll get one up tomorrow. I left it at the shop to let the paint dry on the contact areas.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (tripwalking)*

Here's the pics of the bracket. Sorry I didn't remove the CP or spacer, but it's about ready to go in.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

Here's a quick question. It seems that one of the coils isn't firing. I'm only getting power on 4 cylinders, no spark on cylinder 2 and 5. I have no resistor and the wires appear to be working. 
What else should I check? Is there a way to test the coilpack? 
Is it possible that an older ICM (possibly failing) could not fire the 2/5 coil but run the rest okay?


_Modified by VertigoGTI at 1:05 PM 11-22-2007_


----------



## devastate vw (Apr 18, 2006)

my coilpack just went def looking into this http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## T99inFL (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_Here's a quick question. It seems that one of the coils isn't firing. I'm only getting power on 4 cylinders, no spark on cylinder 2 and 5. I have no resistor and the wires appear to be working. 
What else should I check? Is there a way to test the coilpack? 
Is it possible that an older ICM (possibly failing) could not fire the 2/5 coil but run the rest okay?
_Modified by VertigoGTI at 1:05 PM 11-22-2007_

I have had coils go bad but NEVER have both cylinders crapped out simultaneously. Recheck the power and ground wires from the icu to the #5&2 coil.
I notice you have the 6in1 coilpack. You still need to check your wires from icm to coilpack, specifically the ground wire for 5&2 and the #15 +12v wire


_Modified by T99inFL at 2:19 PM 11-22-2007_


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (T99inFL)*

I've pulled it apart a few times and I get the same result every time. At first, the connection on one side of the 2-5 was very loose and fell off. It's on nice and tight now.
I've swapped plug wires in an attempt to see if I'd accidentally pulled the crimp connects off of the wires, but they're all fine.
It's got to be the coilpack (brand new) or the ICM (11 years old).


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

When my ICM died, I lost 2 cylinders...
Check the resistance across the coils, and test the output voltage on the icm while the car is running.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*

_I know that this will show how much of a rookie I am, so I'll put my flamesuit on for this question..._
What would I use to test the ICM and coil? A multimeter? How would I do it? I know those are noob-ish questions but I've never done stuff like this before.
I'm currently swapping out the ICM for another one, I hope that does the trick.


_Modified by VertigoGTI at 11:25 PM 11-22-2007_


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

N/M. The culprit was the ICM. Runs like a champ now!


----------



## cxjon (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: (GruvenParts.com)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_Yes, it's a dual post so it'll work just fine. The Accel version is this guy right here.








Accel 1986-98 GM Super DIS Coil

will this coil work with this bracket

_Quote, originally posted by *GruvenParts.com* »_Hey guys, after long break we are selling on Vortex.
If you are interested in the coil pack bracket, you can buy from us or Four Seasons Tuning.
The part is very durable and fits great, gives clean factory look.
We also want to supply the parts turn key - the harness and MSD coils so you have everything needed in 1 box. If you guys are interested in that, pls get with me by phone or email (my PMs are screwed). We'd like to work with someone who knows this inside and out to get a kit built.

*CNC Pressed MSD Coil Pack Brackets MK3 and MK4 VR6*
Use this CNC formed, powder coated Aerospace grade aluminum bracket to mount your new MSD coils on MK3 or MK4 VR6 engines. We all know how poorly the OEM Beru units hold up - so get serious about your VR6 ignition and step up to MSD! Leave the cheaply made, overpriced Beru coils for the competition!


----------



## Action Jackson (Nov 20, 2001)

*Re: (cxjon)*

I'd think so. The brackets got a pretty good slot for adjustment


----------



## Action Jackson (Nov 20, 2001)

*Re: (GruvenParts.com)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GruvenParts.com* »_...We also want to supply the parts turn key - the harness and MSD coils so you have everything needed in 1 box. If you guys are interested in that, pls get with me by phone or email (my PMs are screwed). We'd like to work with someone who knows this inside and out to get a kit built.









I'd like to provide some input into a turn key kit. IMO, it all requires a newer bracket. Not that the one you have now is not good enough but I think we could make this coilpack part swap job completely factory looking, plug and play! It only needs a few things....
1) the bracket should have the ICM wiring built in. So you just need to plug the coilpacks onto the bracket, then secure with the fasteners. So this type of connection to the coilpack:








could be integrated right into the bracket for a plug and play install.
2) There then should be a plug that will connect and cover the OEM posts on the OEM coilpack base which is already wired into the bracket which the MSD coilpacks are secured to. This harness would include the resistor.
Some shots of Cubix's DIY job:
















Last, some customer length bolts to secure the coilpacks to the bracket using cap nuts for a cleanest install look.








I'd like to here if others think this approach to creating a DIY turn key kit is good/bad, needs improvement. I've been watching this thread and the others for some time now and still haven't done the job (mostly because I have other prioreties) but when I do get down to doing this, I want to do something as I described.



_Modified by Action Jackson at 10:39 AM 11-23-2007_


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (Action Jackson)*

Good idea. This has probably been asked before, but what is that red goo that you are using to keep those wires in? I need something to keep mine from falling out. Is that the "brush-on electrical tape"?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (VRdublove)*

It's silicone water gasket, it doesn't hold the wires in at all, the spades click in and stay there.
as for Vertigo GTI, sorry I didn't chime in earlier, it sounded like an ICM problem.. 
Finally, Paul, hit me up on my email - [email protected], I remember we were talking about the harness before, but I've been so backed up with work and now school and scuba I've completely lost track of the project.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif To all those running this


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote »_Vertigo GTI, sorry I didn't chime in earlier, it sounded like an ICM problem

Not a problem at all. It runs great now! I was really worried about it at first because I sold my first one and I really didn't do anything different. The bracket is cleaner, the connections are simpler and it's much more solid all around. I used the same GN Accel CP as well. Oh well, I thought I was really overlooking something last time.
Here's a tip to the people that are making your own brackets. If you drill 6 holes into the bracket that match the spacer, you can bolt it up altogether instead of trying to sandwich it while trying to get the 4 CP bolts in.


----------



## cxjon (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

my buddy has a modded buick regal gs and he says the stock replacement caps make good spark to has anyone used them before


----------



## MKII16v (Oct 23, 1999)

*Re: (cxjon)*

Quite a few of us using the Buick GNX coil pack. Not sure how it compares to the Regal GS one.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: Turn key kit*

*Turn key kit:*

I know my coilpack will die eventually and I'll also have to change plug wires. I'd love to have a kit option which includes:
3 coils
6 spark-plug wires
pre-crimped wiring for ECM -> coil
insulating grommets for ECM -> coil wires
fastener kit
bracket

Customer supplied parts:
working ECM

The OEM ECM is $275 and wires are another $100. So price this kit at under $300 shipped with warranty and I think you'll have a winner.
Make sure to provide an option for black wires and coils to match factory engine bay for West coast folks where bright red coils may draw attention at emissions inspection time.


----------



## 18JettaPower (Oct 24, 2004)

im almost done with the kit


----------



## Das Bar 2k4 (Sep 2, 2005)

*Re: (18JettaPower)*

i need to do this for my turbo build. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif better spark means better burn more power....right


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Das Bar 2k4)*

Power = Super awesome number 1!
Seriously, if you do this mod, girls will swarm you


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_Power = Super awesome number 1!
Seriously, if you do this mod, girls will swarm you









This is true, I had a girl come up to my window the night after I got this new CP in. 
She was wearing all black with a hat, really hot. Had some sort of star on her shirt, I dunno, must've meant 'porn star.' She was acting all badass, like she thought she was an authority figure and asked me all kinds of flirty questions like, "Do you know why I stopped you?" and "You have no license plate lights, are you aware of that?"
Hawt.
_(the sad part is that this really happened. Who gets pulled over for burned out tag lights? Is it 1952?)_


----------



## Dutchsider (Apr 27, 2006)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

definitely plan on doing this over the winter.
What's the typical price range of doing the conversion and using the mass produced bracket?


----------



## kyle_b (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: (Dutchsider)*

my grand total was around 290, using msd coils and wires, but i made the bracket for nothing.


----------



## Action Jackson (Nov 20, 2001)

*Re: (kyle_b)*

Yup that sounds about right. I've been pricing out the peices to do this myself.
3 MSD coil packs @ $60 each
1 set of MSD wires @ $105
1 resistor from local electronics store @ $10 (guessing on that buts its not a big deal)
so $180 for coils + $105 makes $285, add whatever (~$10) for the resistor and then taxes and elbo grease, of course maybe think about another $20 for the connector ends and solder etc if you don't have a supply of that.


----------



## kmg108 (Jan 24, 2003)

*Re: (Action Jackson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Action Jackson* »_Yup that sounds about right. I've been pricing out the peices to do this myself.
3 MSD coil packs @ $60 each
1 set of MSD wires @ $105
1 resistor from local electronics store @ $10 (guessing on that buts its not a big deal)
so $180 for coils + $105 makes $285, add whatever (~$10) for the resistor and then taxes and elbo grease, of course maybe think about another $20 for the connector ends and solder etc if you don't have a supply of that.

save your $10 as it has been said time and time again that the resistor is not needed. In fact, many that have used the resistor end up removing it with no ill effects when it starts causes ignition problems. If you do use the resistor, I would suggest the one sold by Summit and Jegs specifically for ignition components. Each coil manufacturer has their own and they have nice terminals for better contacts.








On a side note, I've yet to see anyone post pics on their setup using the msd 8870 coil interface. I hear it makes great connections but creates a bulky appearance. ANy pics would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## envi (Jul 31, 2005)

*Re: (kmg108)*

Looking into bulk wire. Will 6 feet of plug wire be enough to make a set?


----------



## Lazarus95VR6 (Nov 28, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

I read and use schematics every day...I believe Cubix is correct. You could use "optocouplers" instead of relays. They function like a relay, but use a photosensitive transistor instead of a coil and contacts. Very good for power isolation. Check this link for a description of how they work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opto-isolator The only thing that you will need to check is the "gate" or "trigger" will work with only 5VDC from the ECU ...Hope this helps.


----------



## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

*Re: (envi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *envi* »_Looking into bulk wire. Will 6 feet of plug wire be enough to make a set?

I don't think so, it'd be VERY close.


----------



## envi (Jul 31, 2005)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*

Bah, I thought so. I'll just go with the pre-made. Can't hurt.


----------



## OneLethalVR6 (Feb 9, 2007)

thanks guys, helped out alot


----------



## kmg108 (Jan 24, 2003)

*Re: (kmg108)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kmg108* »_ I've yet to see anyone post pics on their setup using the msd 8870 coil interface. I hear it makes great connections but creates a bulky appearance. Any pics would be greatly appreciated.

anyone have these pics?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (kmg108)*

I think the bigger question is, is anyone sporting this setup?


_Modified by Cubix at 11:48 PM 12-6-2007_


----------



## DubSix3 (Feb 19, 2002)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Not having much confidence with the ICM prongs just hanging out in mid air, with the coil pack wires attached to them, and the vibration from the motor..... I decided it would be good to provide a positive landing spot.
So, I took a piece of pheonelic (plexiglass would work too), drilled some holes into it, put some bolts in it, and made a more rigid mounting tab for all the terminations.








There is a fifth bolt, spaced out from the other four incase, I want to add the resistor between them.
I also made a bracket that covers up the sides of the wiring area and mounts the coils factory style:
















Hope this adds to the value of this thread.


----------



## Soren (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: (DubSix3)*

lookin' good http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Love this thread!


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (DubSix3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DubSix3* »_
Hope this adds to the value of this thread.

Absolutely! I had the same qualms about the wires hanging down there... Great idea with the plexiglas stuff!


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (DubSix3)*

Like your setup DubSix3... 
Any chance of seeing a bigger version of the pics?


----------



## DubSix3 (Feb 19, 2002)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*

Here are some more:


----------



## VR6_00Jetta (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: (DubSix3)*

B E A U T Y !!
That's the best looking / thought out version of this mod, yet. If Gruven commercializes this mod, they should look at this.


----------



## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

*Re: (Lazarus95VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Lazarus95VR6* »_I read and use schematics every day...I believe Cubix is correct. You could use "optocouplers" instead of relays. They function like a relay, but use a photosensitive transistor instead of a coil and contacts. Very good for power isolation. Check this link for a description of how they work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opto-isolator The only thing that you will need to check is the "gate" or "trigger" will work with only 5VDC from the ECU ...Hope this helps.









this would definitely be an evolution in what you guys are trying to do here, very interesting...I don't know enough about them to know if it would work, but it sounds good...


----------



## Action Jackson (Nov 20, 2001)

*Re: (DubSix3)*

DubSix3, what is the material for the bracket that the coilpacks attach to? It doesn't seem to also be pheonelic.


----------



## GruvenParts.com (Jul 31, 2007)

*Re: (VertigoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VertigoGTI* »_*WARNING: OT MATERIAL!!!!*
Out of curiousity, does Gruven need a CAD/Solidworks/3D designer? I'm probably moving to Atlanta in the next few months. 

Yeah man, we need all the help we can get!
Call or email pleeez


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (Action Jackson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Action Jackson* »_DubSix3, what is the material for the bracket that the coilpacks attach to? It doesn't seem to also be pheonelic.

That looks like painted aluminum...


----------



## VR_racer101 (Aug 30, 2007)

great idea here looks nice in the engine bay too. i wish i knew about this before i got rid of my vr6


----------



## DubSix3 (Feb 19, 2002)

*Re: (VR_racer101)*

The coil bracket itself is aluminum, then it was powdercoated in wrinkle black.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VR6TUNER (May 2, 2000)

*Re: (DubSix3)*

I just did this mod and all I gots to say is WOW!
I didn't put in a resistor thats still ok right? I know at first it was required and then it wasn't. Will it be ok without one?


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (VR6TUNER)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6TUNER* »_
I didn't put in a resistor thats still ok right? I know at first it was required and then it wasn't. Will it be ok without one?

I have been running mine for about 6k resistorless and all is good!


----------



## kyle_b (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: (VRdublove)*

mine actually wouldnt run with the resistor in.
about 2.5k miles and counting. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## kyle_b (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: (kyle_b)*


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (kyle_b)*

Looks good, but I would stay away from the zipties on the wires, use wire separators instead.


----------



## VR6TUNER (May 2, 2000)

*Re: (VRdublove)*

Did you guys have any trouble fitting all the coils on straight? I had to kinda wiggle mine around to get all the slots to show through the bracket. You know where you stick in the spade connectors. I think the coil on the back end was a little crooked.


----------



## kyle_b (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: (VRdublove)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRdublove* »_Looks good, but I would stay away from the zipties on the wires, use wire separators instead.

suck my balls


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (kyle_b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kyle_b* »_
suck my balls

Present them!
-No resistor is A-OK in my book. As long as the system is up and running I believe you should be in the clear.


----------



## ALLGORIMSHOW (Jul 1, 2002)

*Re: (kyle_b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kyle_b* »_
suck my balls


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (kyle_b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kyle_b* »_
suck my balls

I will pretend to, then slice them off with a machete!


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (VRdublove)*

What a twist!


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Why the negative??? We are all VW fans... 
Sometimes you read what you want to read in a message instead of what's actually there. It all comes down to your attitude... 
I'm 42 so maybe my view on life is different to someone in their 20s...
(Maybe the Zip tie suggestion was meant to be helpful and not a criticism)


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sc_rufctr* »_(Maybe the Zip tie suggestion was meant to be helpful and not a criticism)









It was, but I guess I can see how it could be taken the wrong way, I've always heard that tying them together can cause interference in the wires.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (VRdublove)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRdublove* »_
It was, but I guess I can see how it could be taken the wrong way 


When I read the reply I thought he was just being a goof, it's something i'd say just to be weird.
I didn't think there was any hostility involves, and if there was, so help me I'll turn this thread around!!








I'm not sure interefence would have too much of an effect on the wires, since it's simply pushing high voltage through, the spacers are usually (in my mind) used to keep wires from rubbing against one another and other things, lowering their useful life span.


----------



## kyle_b (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_

When I read the reply I thought he was just being a goof, it's something i'd say just to be weird.


anyway, back on topic.

and ill keep my zip ties, they are sexy


_Modified by kyle_b at 6:32 PM 12-21-2007_


----------



## 708VR6 (May 20, 2006)

*Re: (Cubix)*

that interference is refered to as crosstalk, it's where the inductance of one of the wires affects the inductance of the wire running parallel to it if they are bunched up together like the ones zip tied. It's not a coincidence that wire seperators keep the wires a certain distance apart from each other when they're run parallel to each other


----------



## all-starr-me (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: (Cubix)*

from all the info I've seen and read lately the resistor is only needed if you have an old points system with condensors, which doesn't apply to us. 
If you run wires close enough together when one fires the voltage running through it creates a magnetic field and can cause the other wires to fire causing loss of voltage on the main wire and backfires on the other cylinders. that said those look to be some heavy wires that won't have much of a problem.


----------



## eurocustomgti01 (Feb 6, 2005)

*Re: (all-starr-me)*

Love what you guys are doing with this mod!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I am doing this mod and i have read this whole thread, I dont see many people using the msd interfaces #8870. I made a bracket to use these with the 8224 coil and not sit to high, how do i wire these to the stock icm? Do i use only to wires or do i use all 4? Why arent there more people use the interface? Seems to make wiring a little cleaner and safe for the coils.Pics coming soon.


----------



## DubbleTrubble (Dec 14, 2001)

can I solder the crimpends???


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: (DubbleTrubble)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DubbleTrubble* »_can I solder the crimpends???

That's what I did...figured it would be a little more permanent. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## JettaBoi_VR6 (Oct 24, 2002)

*Re: (kyle_b)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kyle_b* »_









I want that, make me one, thnx


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (JettaBoi_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JettaBoi_VR6* »_
I want that, make me one, thnx


I love how he didn't really ask 








I <3 how my set up scares the inspection station i go to and they just pass me


----------



## eurocustomgti01 (Feb 6, 2005)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Any one have any info on wiring the 8870 interface


----------



## Wedzinga (Aug 25, 2005)

I have been reading this thread and I am tired of reading so I thought I would just ask haha. Is there ONE place that can sell you everything for this setup?? TIA.


----------



## VR6TUNER (May 2, 2000)

*Re: (Wedzinga)*

Ah no, but there is two places!


----------



## Wedzinga (Aug 25, 2005)

mmm hmm. So if i wanted everything what and where would i need to get it from.


----------



## VR6TUNER (May 2, 2000)

*Re: (Wedzinga)*

Lets see here... I think the very first page of this thread says to go to these two places, but I'm not too sure because the first page was soooo long ago. Hard to remember.. I must be getting old.








http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?category=7&type=2
http://store.summitracing.com/...w=sku
Oh and you'll have to find a local hardware store for the wires/connectors/bolts. No kit out there yet with all that stuff.
Good luck and Merry Christmas!


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (VR6TUNER)*























I think thats three
Wires & bracket @ fourseasonstuning
Coils at summitracing
Nuts and bolts and wires @ hard ware store/radio shack


----------



## LaTEnTConcepT (Jun 9, 2005)

Think i'll dump my complete pack as I can not get it to work in my car. Changed wires, removed resistor, checked for voltage and still no start or spark??? WHAT GIVES!!


----------



## LaTEnTConcepT (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: (LaTEnTConcepT)*

Just noticed fuse keeps blowing WHERE TO CHECK ???


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (LaTEnTConcepT)*

hit me up on PM, or AIM @ cubixy2k to discuss
I'll post the conversation up here so it could benefit other people at the same time, but be faster for latentconcept
to begin, what bracket are you usings, custom vs. the gruven one


----------



## DJP944 (Oct 21, 2005)

i have done this conversion myself and i can personally say that it is a million times better than stock. my girls vr has had a misfire so shes jumping on the wagon and converting to msd







one thing though is that im trying to save some $$$$, by using the existing oem wires. her father has a cnc machine so he will be fabbing up a custom bracket as well








but...which wire ends and boots should i go with, and where do i find them. im wondering if the wire size will matter...if so what size are the stock plug wires







are they 7mm? thanks a million


_Modified by DJP944 at 8:55 PM 12-26-2007_


----------



## kmg108 (Jan 24, 2003)

*Re: (DJP944)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DJP944* »_im wondering if the wire size will matter...if so what size are the stock plug wires







are they 7mm? thanks a million

Despite what anyone tells you, size does matter.








I believe you're correct about the stock wires being 7mm. I'm not sure I would trust that small of a used plug wire to carry this much voltage. With a mod like this, I would encourage you not to cut corners on the actual mechanical components.


----------



## LaTEnTConcepT (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Hi hope this is helpful to others--- Have a dealer supplied pack not sure if its Gurvan but what I have found if I hold the pack in my hand (not screwed to block) I don't trip fuse #29, If I screw it to the block it must ground out and the fuse blows ??







so still searching to a fix. Maybe I'll try to sleeve the bolts and put rubber washers on both sides to see if it helps it from grounding


----------



## DJP944 (Oct 21, 2005)

*Re: (kmg108)*

ive talked to people on here that have used the oem wires for this swap. it worked fine for them http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (DJP944)*

I am having an intermittent problem with my setup, I will try to describe the symptoms and maybe someone can point me in the right direction. The car seems to misfire after 5000 rpm, and it will only do it under load, it won't even do it in first and second gear, only long pulls in 3rd, 4th or 5th. 

Somedays it will misfire 5k thru 7k rpm, other days it will pull smoothly all the way through the redline in 3rd and 4th gears. I have tried two different plugs, and I don't think it is the plugs. All my wiring is in very good shape, all connections are good, and shrinkwrapped. The wires are new, my coils look like they are in good shape, and there is no arcing anywhere when I spray water on the wiring. 
I am using some semi crappy wire separators that knicked the rubber on the wires in a couple areas, but I don't think that would cause this severe of a problem. Could my ICM cause an intermittent problem like this? I have had the battery disconnected and reconnected, and nothing was changed. It did it for two days, ran great for two weeks, and now it is starting again. I just can't figure it out. I am running the DIS-4. Maybe someone can help me out. Thanks!


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (VRdublove)*

Hmm, I'm not too familiar with the dis 4 but it sounds it could actually be your fuel injectors.
If they can't spray enough at high RPM then the cylinder may not fire correctly. I had a similar problem until I got the inj. cleaned @ witchhunter


----------



## LaTEnTConcepT (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: (LaTEnTConcepT)*

OK I'm confused. The pack works when not bolted to engine block so I thought it might be a grounding problem. Shrink wraped screws and all connections,used rubber tire tube on back of ICM, put rubber washers on all ends and in between ICM and coil pack harness but still blows the fuse when bolted to block ? Am I going about this right? Could someone check there packs to see if they have coductivity from ground to factory ICM box? Or do I mount this in another place ? Please HELP!!!


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (LaTEnTConcepT)*

I had a problem like that and it was due to a faulty ICM, once I replaced that I didn't have anymore issues. 
I didn't blow any fuses, but I blew the 1/6 coil 4 times, not good, i refused to believe it wasn't the ICM, once I finally bought a used one and swaped ICM then it worked fine.


----------



## IwannaGTI (Jul 12, 2001)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_I had a problem like that and it was due to a faulty ICM, once I replaced that I didn't have anymore issues. 
I didn't blow any fuses, but I blew the 1/6 coil 4 times, not good, i refused to believe it wasn't the ICM, once I finally bought a used one and swaped ICM then it worked fine.

Had the same problem, (actually at your house







) and then got a new icm and it worked fine. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (IwannaGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *IwannaGTI* »_
Had the same problem, (actually at your house







) and then got a new icm and it worked fine. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

hahah oh yea
glad to see it worked out! Hows the boost


----------



## LaTEnTConcepT (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Weird how it works than it don't . Guess i'll search for cracked pack for just ICM


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_Hmm, I'm not too familiar with the dis 4 but it sounds it could actually be your fuel injectors.
If they can't spray enough at high RPM then the cylinder may not fire correctly. I had a similar problem until I got the inj. cleaned @ witchhunter

I put some BG 44k in the tank today and seems to have cleared up the problem. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## checkit (Aug 8, 2007)

*Re: (VRdublove)*

hey tom what's bg 44k? does that clean your injectors? i'm actually starting to think that dirty fuel injectors could be my problem too...not that i really fixed anything with the coilpack, besides some electrical tape which probably didnt do anything, but before i go screw with the coilpack i thought cleaning the injectors was worth a shot


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (checkit)*

Yeah it's fuel injector cleaner, you can get it at Danny's Garage. Is your coil arcing in the dark?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (LaTEnTConcepT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LaTEnTConcepT* »_Weird how it works than it don't . Guess i'll search for cracked pack for just ICM

DO NOT get a cracked coil pack, a cracked coil pack (the theory goes) causes unusually high stress on the ICM, while the coil may work for a while, problems most likely will occur when paired with hi-draw coils like the MSD ones.
I got a used 'good shape' coil from the tex for 60 bux. happy hunting.
Second - Any fuel injector cleaner additive will at most break up some of the residue in the lines and on the fuel injectors, however, if you really want to get better performance from your injectors, I'd recommend sending them out to get referbed. Like I said, I did mine at witchhunter.com (VgRt6 has a past thread on cleaning injectors for more info), turn around time was about a week (from east coast to west), and the results were nothing short of amazing. I'd highly recommend it to anyone with high mileage (cost was around 90 bucks including shipping IIRC). It's really a great supplement with the coil pack alternative, because now you'll have even full flow to the cylinders ready to be fired.


----------



## LaTEnTConcepT (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: (Cubix)*

I've gone thru 3 ICM's and all do the same thing no fire on 2 & 5 hook it back up to factory pack and all fire fine so ICM's are good. Checked coils Checked wiring, grounds, power etc all go. This is driving me nuts as coils= $140, 2 goodshape used packs= $150, Wires= $115, Bracket =$70, Wire & connectors = $10, So $485 for a mod that don't work







As a last resort I'm going to build a fiberglass bracket (not conductive) and see if that works. ANYONE WANT TO BUY THIS MOD ????


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (LaTEnTConcepT)*

i spent way more on getting mine to work, have you tried getting a new coil for 2/5
Or wiring the 2/5 coil to another post and seeing if the misfire moves, if so, get a new single coil. and it doesn't mean the ICM is fine, the oem coil seems to be able to handle a poorly functioning ICM better then the coils.
I started with strange problems, replaces 4 coils, with each splitting and blowing up, finally i replaced the ICM and still had the same problem until I replaced the coil one more time, then it all worked.


----------



## LaTEnTConcepT (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: (Cubix)*

yea check the end of this thread
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3600145


----------



## Tire_Marx (Mar 4, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_
Part numbers are
*For the full custom look*
*MSD 8224* Coil, dual post HEI used on GM models
*MSD 3311* HEI crimp ends
*MSD 31199* Custom 8 cyl wire set, these have straight plug boots


so why wont MSD-31189 work? its the same as MSD 31199 as far as i can tell, but comes WITH the ends needed to connect to the coils and is 10 dollars cheaper...


----------



## T99inFL (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: (LaTEnTConcepT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LaTEnTConcepT* »_I've gone thru 3 ICM's and all do the same thing no fire on 2 & 5 hook it back up to factory pack and all fire fine so ICM's are good. Checked coils Checked wiring, grounds, power etc all go. This is driving me nuts as coils= $140, 2 goodshape used packs= $150, Wires= $115, Bracket =$70, Wire & connectors = $10, So $485 for a mod that don't work








As a last resort I'm going to build a fiberglass bracket (not conductive) and see if that works. ANYONE WANT TO BUY THIS MOD ????

Wanna trade?








http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...10942


_Modified by T99inFL at 9:09 AM 1-3-2008_


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*12v VR6 coil-on-plug ignition?*

Has anyone converted the 12v coilpack setup to coil-on-plug ignition like the 24v VR6?
You'd have to buy 6 coils, but putting the coils on top of the valve cover would save prime real-estate. Especially for those with SRI and turbo.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: 12v VR6 coil-on-plug ignition? (phatvw)*









yummy


----------



## Soren (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: 12v VR6 coil-on-plug ignition? (Cubix)*

Woah.. Now that just looks mean.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: 12v VR6 coil-on-plug ignition? (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_








yummy 


Yes! I thought I had seen that before. SO is there any more info about this car? Does it use the OEM ICM? How was the wiring/mounting done, etc? With engine vibration, do the coils pop off like the 1.8T cars, etc etc.
I prefer this approach much more than the angle bracket stuff.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: 12v VR6 coil-on-plug ignition? (Soren)*

not just looks mean
but eats babies too


----------



## IN-FLT (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: 12v VR6 coil-on-plug ignition? (Soren)*

I am in the process of building mine up while working on the rest of the car, but one question keeps popping into my mind.
Why are some people having no issues with this and yet others have nothing _but_ issues?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: 12v VR6 coil-on-plug ignition? (IN-FLT)*

I think it depends on how stressed your ICM is when you do the project, if you previously hasd one that came from a cracked pack, or one thats seen better days, it messes up a coil and in turn causes a mis fire, at which point in many cases the ICM and the coil need to be raplaced in order to get the system fully operational.
The best thing to do would be to find a replacement for the OEM ICM so we don't have to even worry about the anymore and cut out the change that something goes wrongs and costs an additional x hundred dollars in order to get repaired.


----------



## Tire_Marx (Mar 4, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Tire_Marx)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tire_Marx* »_
so why wont MSD-31189 work? its the same as MSD 31199 as far as i can tell, but comes WITH the ends needed to connect to the coils and is 10 dollars cheaper...

littering and?
littering and?
littering and?
bumping a post


----------



## jettaglx91 (Jul 27, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Tire_Marx)*

ive read through anythiig and have a question i didnt see an answer for my question.
Does anyone know how to wire the buick accel coil??
The back just has 6 male terminals, i asumed they would be grouped like msd but no they are kinda like this:
___ ___ ___ 
___ ___ ___
im guessing they work like the msd whereas say use the top row for power and the lower row for triggers but just to be sure. 
i figured i could call accel but i just got it when i got home today and hoping to work on it this weekend
thanks for any help


----------



## jettaglx91 (Jul 27, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (jettaglx91)*

nevermind my previous post i saw all star's back on page 19 and confirmed what i thought


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (jettaglx91)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jettaglx91* »_nevermind my previous post i saw all star's back on page 19 and confirmed what i thought

Awesome to the max, added a link to the first page!
Anyone want to offer to make a table of contents for this thread?


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: 12v VR6 coil-on-plug ignition? (phatvw)*

I can't remember now whose car this was. Sorry...
It uses standalone engine management though.


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: 12v VR6 coil-on-plug ignition? (jamesn67)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jamesn67* »_I can't remember now whose car this was. Sorry...
It uses standalone engine management though.

it was bogevr6's car


----------



## Tire_Marx (Mar 4, 2004)

so, i assume no one knows anything about MSD-31189 wires being used on the coils?


----------



## t101 (Jun 29, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (VertigoGTI)*

great thread Cubix.
I just ordered my MSD coils, Bracket and wires. I got the coils locally and the rest from 4 seasons as suggested.
I have a boosted VR with C2 software and I have been having problems with high load intermittent missfires espeically on humid, wet days. I have replaced the coil with a new OEM one last summer...but it did not stay good for long. The problem really shows on the dyno especially with 4th gear pulls.
looking forward to having this setup in this engine bay.


----------



## vwnobby (Nov 1, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (t101)*

Hello All. Looks like this will be my next project as I'm already having slight issues with my current coil pack. I just had a few questions before I go ahead with this. 
Does anyone know how to test the ICM to make sure it is working properly? I'm concerned because I'll be using an ICM off of one of my old coil packs. If there is a way to test, how exactly is is done? Also, how many of you have, or are currently running this setup with the Jegs coils? Are they worth looking into? Hope to start this project in a few weeks and I usually like to plan well in advance just in case.
Thanks!


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: 12v VR6 coil-on-plug ignition? (Slayer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slayer* »_
it was bogevr6's car

Cool. I'll shoot him an email.

Looks like the setup is not really coil on plug like 1.8T/24v though - Its coil-on valve-cover - cause there are still short spark plug wires going down to the spark plugs. I wonder if we could simply use the 1.8T/24v coils and 24v ECM on our cars?


----------



## IN-FLT (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (vwnobby)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwnobby* »_Hello All. Looks like this will be my next project as I'm already having slight issues with my current coil pack. I just had a few questions before I go ahead with this. 
Does anyone know how to test the ICM to make sure it is working properly? I'm concerned because I'll be using an ICM off of one of my old coil packs. If there is a way to test, how exactly is is done? Also, how many of you have, or are currently running this setup with the Jegs coils? Are they worth looking into? Hope to start this project in a few weeks and I usually like to plan well in advance just in case.
Thanks!

I would like to know this as well... 
I am getting ready to do this project this week. I will post up pics of the progress in here. I found a good source for a plug... if it all works out i will put it in the details.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (IN-FLT)*

As I said before, theres really no known way to test the coil other then it messing things up sadly. Some people never had problems, personal I've had a slew of problems
I guess, if it's all wired correctly and should work but you get a misfire on an entire coil, place the ICM and that coil.... Because the damaged ICM can/will most likely, damage the coil in turn, so if you just replaced the ICM it'll still give you problems.
It seems to be a crop shoot, a few have taken the ICM off a cracked and beaten coil pack and it worked, others haven't been so lucky
The best would be an ICM alternative! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## xxxfattonyxxx (Oct 25, 2003)

*Re: 12v VR6 coil-on-plug ignition? (Slayer)*

Just finished my conversion and so far so good, fired up first try. I will post up some pics when its back together. Sadly I cannot drive it due to 6 inches of snow and a broken mk2 in the way


----------



## xxxfattonyxxx (Oct 25, 2003)

*Re: 12v VR6 coil-on-plug ignition? (xxxfattonyxxx)*

ok, so I just got done bolting the coils up and its running great. Broke out the new 40D Canon for some pictures
































































































Let me know what you think


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: 12v VR6 coil-on-plug ignition? (xxxfattonyxxx)*

you should add blue racing stripes to the coils!!!!
I <3 it! how does it feel?


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: 12v VR6 coil-on-plug ignition? (xxxfattonyxxx)*

That mounting plate is awesome.
Well done...


----------



## xxxfattonyxxx (Oct 25, 2003)

*Re: 12v VR6 coil-on-plug ignition? (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_you should add blue racing stripes to the coils!!!!
I <3 it! how does it feel?

Haha, I thought about it. I cant drive it yet.....to much snow and a broken car in the way


----------



## xxxfattonyxxx (Oct 25, 2003)

*Re: 12v VR6 coil-on-plug ignition? (sc_rufctr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sc_rufctr* »_That mounting plate is awesome.
Well done...









Thank you, It was free


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: 12v VR6 coil-on-plug ignition? (xxxfattonyxxx)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xxxfattonyxxx* »_
Haha, I thought about it. I cant drive it yet.....to much snow and a broken car in the way

Drive over it!


----------



## justanothermk2vr (May 20, 2006)

*Re: (eurocustomgti01)*


_Quote, originally posted by *eurocustomgti01* »_Any one have any info on wiring the 8870 interface

















any one got pics of this setup installed??


----------



## xxxfattonyxxx (Oct 25, 2003)

*Re: 12v VR6 coil-on-plug ignition? (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_
Drive over it!

I'm to low, or its to tall.....








Thanks for all of the info by the way


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (justanothermk2vr)*

My original setup, the MSD coils with cheapo NGK's at .050" and a stock ICM worked great. Then a great deal on a MSD DIS-4 box popped up, so I jumped on it. After wiring up the box, I ran it for a few weeks and began noticing misfires after long runs on the highway at semi high rpm. The misfires would get progressively worse as I did more and more high rpm driving (like the coils were running short on power). 
So, I decided to wire the MSD coils back up like I had them before, the only change this time was that I connected the wires to the ICM with spade connectors, and a spot of solder to hold them in place, rather than just soldering them to the post like I did before. I used 12ga. wire before, and I still am. Now when I drive the car, I get a quick misfire at about 1200 rpm and one at about 2000 rpm that I can almost count on. I also occasionally get one around 3000rpm, but no high RPM misfires. They aren't terrible, but still very annoying. 
The only thing I can figure is that my ICM is on it's way out. If it is the problem, this will be the second one I have replaced while owning the car, the first was with the stock coil. I have tried two different plugs at a couple different gaps and I am still having the same issue, so I doubt it is the plugs. The wires should be ok, although some cheapo Autozone separators that I bought knicked them in a couple spots. 
Does it sound like my problem lies in the ICM? I would love to find an ICM alternative. Sorry for the book I just wrote, keeping it real for my 1000th post.


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (VRdublove)*

The symptoms you've been describing sound like my car before the MSD swap. I got a new ICM (complete coil pack) as a precaution when I swapped to MSD.
I'm using a DIS-4+ with the GM 2 tower coils... and Tach adapters.
I've had no issues. Runs better than ever. I've been running like this for about 5,000km.


----------



## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*

i just found this ,,,,,,
http://www.gyrhead.com/Catalog...ID=54


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (dtm337)*

Well looks like school came in handy
I know have the first verison of the official Coilpack Alternative Troubleshooting guide
Enjoy!


----------



## LaTEnTConcepT (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Ok ---but i'm still have misfires on my pack and 3 ICM's 6 coils later I'm still having some crap. If I bought a new 99 pack what would I have to change to make it work on a 2000. Tried a new pack made for up to 99 and it misfired on mine someone said about jumping wires ? Can pick up new 99 alot cheaper than 99 up and after all the expense so far trying to get this to work figured MAY BE a little MORE $$$ might do it


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (o2bad455)*

It still misfired with just the OE coil pack?


----------



## blubullet509 (Oct 15, 2007)

Anyone know if theres any vehicles that come equipped stock with the coils I need to do this project. I only ask because my buddys mom works for the parts department for all the main dealers in my town and can hook me up with almost wholesale price. 
Also I JB welded my coilpack about 2 months ago and all was good until today. is it a good idea to use the icm I still have


----------



## LaTEnTConcepT (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: (Cubix)*

NO my OE coil fires ok , but my Dad bought me a MK3 coil (new) and that misfired but was told wiring not the same after 99.5 MK4, But new MK3 coil is like $150 as to $275 for a MK4 just wondering what the diff and if firing order is same ??


----------



## LaTEnTConcepT (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: (blubullet509)*

Read post at beginning GM style packs Chevy and the like also the Buick one posted link above looks promising


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (LaTEnTConcepT)*

the MKIII vs the MKIV coil pack difference is in the harness, but is otherwise the same AFAIK. If you are still getting misfires on that MKIII pack then you have issues somewhere else, you also shouldn't be able to hook up the old to the new or vice versa.
I really can't imagine why you're having so many issues, 
*is there anyone in his area that can help him out??*


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*

Great thread guys, even if it did take me three whole lunch hours and two evenings at home reading it all (yes, I read all 27 pages). You all did a lot of good work to develop it to this point.
My second coilpack just started acting up (170K mi on the car), and since I'd never done better than 28 mpg on a tankful I'm going to go ahead with this. I'm ordering parts today, will probably put it together next weekend. It better work 'cause I have to drive 45 miles through no man's land to get to work every day.
Regarding the question of testing ICM's, if all the ICM does is take 5v from the ECU and uses it to switch 12v (at a higher amperage presumably) to the coils, it's basically a transistor, right? A dvm that tests diodes can test a transistor; has anyone tried to test their ICM this way? Could you replace the ICM with three transistors and do the same thing?

_Quote, originally posted by *sc_rufctr* »_I'm 42 so maybe my view on life is different to someone in their 20s...

I'm glad I'm not the only geezer reading this!







I'm 41 and still driving an A3.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (itb76)*

Theres more the ICM does. It not only takes the 12v line and steps it up, but it handles converting the ECU signals and opening up the ground for a specific amount of time, dwell times are in the milliseconds and theres just something else about it that prevents people from simply throwing in a alternate ICM.


----------



## jettaglx91 (Jul 27, 2004)

*Re: (Cubix)*

I read all the pages a couple weeks ago and remember some discussion about icm from other vehicles. 
what about from a coil on plug car. 
Any chance of using an early aeb style? if i remember there may not even be enough outputs but figure someone might know more about it.
or from a 2.7T? didnt know if they also fire batch or all 6 seperate? if they are seperate could the pair be tied together for batch?
just throwing out some possabilities


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

New Accel coils: ballast resistor or no?
Back to the subject of a ballast resistor, I understand that most don't run them with the MSD coils. On the other hand, I seem to recall that some folks have had trouble with the Accel coils without any resistor. 
I ordered a set of the Accel coils because 1) they're rated 45KV (slightly more than the 40KV of the MSD), and 2) they're also available locally at increased price should I ever need a quick replacement. Then I found this quote on the Summit site: "ACCEL ballast resistors are recommended when a new coil is installed." 
Should I take this to mean that a ballast resistor should be used when the coils are new, but can be removed once they're "broken in"? Anyone still running the Accel coils, with or without resistor, and if without, did you start off with a resistor? Thanks in advance.


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Tire_Marx)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Tire_Marx* »_so why wont MSD-31189 work? its the same as MSD 31199 as far as i can tell, but comes WITH the ends needed to connect to the coils and is 10 dollars cheaper...

Did a search but didn't find a picture. Will the plug boots pull out with the stock VW plug wire tool (do they have metal shields)? Also, the application list for MSD-31189 shows mostly Fords and no Chevys, so I'm not sure if the ends would be quite right. 
As an aside, I went with the FourSeasonTuning plug wires so I could use the stock (or metal version) VW plug wire tool. That way I don't have to try to remember what's in the hole and can just use the same tool on all my cars. On the other hand, it would be really nice to have an option to use something immediately available locally should one ever need a quick replacement. 
EDIT: Does the "multi-angle" for this part # refer to the plug boots or the coil boots? We'd want straight or 180 deg for the plug boots, and 90 deg for the coil boots, although multi-angle might be OK.


_Modified by o2bad455 at 12:31 AM 1-12-2008_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (o2bad455)*

You want straight for the plug boots. The reason the 31189 (which is the wires I used originally before working with 4seasons to get oem type wires) are listed as ford/gm is because they obviously weren't designed for this application, but the wonders of universal is, if you can find a use, it'll work.


----------



## LaTEnTConcepT (Jun 9, 2005)

*Re: (Cubix)*

I know !! it has me stumped







If someone lives close or I'll take a ride., maybe I'll try my pack on there's or there's on mine to see if it is a problem. I still can not understand when I put new MK3 pack in I got misfires so I sold it to a MK3er and it worked fine in his car ? Seems my packs only work in mine but updating one or new one cause misfires


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_Theres more the ICM does. It not only takes the 12v line and steps it up, but it handles converting the ECU signals and opening up the ground for a specific amount of time, dwell times are in the milliseconds and theres just something else about it that prevents people from simply throwing in a alternate ICM.

I thought the ECU determined dwell time, but now that I think about it some more, it makes sense that the ICM does more than just switching. The ECU needs feedback for the OBD regarding misfires; the ICM is most likely what handles that.
Ordered coils and a Mallory resistor (just in case) from Jegs yesterday afternoon, got it today! Their free shipping is really fast, even if it isn't really free. Waiting on wires & bracket from fourseason then I'll put it all together.


_Modified by itb76 at 10:41 PM 1-12-2008_


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Is anyone running the 45KV Accel 140017 coils, or has everyone now settled on the 40KV MSD 8224? If running the Accel coils, with or without ballast resistor? If no resistor now, did you start off with a resistor? Any great successes or failures? Thanks.


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (o2bad455)*

I guess there is no way to get a new icm without buying a whole new coilpack?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (VRdublove)*

not really
i just bought a used one off the classifieds w/ no cracks


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

I used twelve guage wire for the wiring, other than it possibly being overkill and a slight waste of money, can it cause any problems?
Also, is there any benefit in wiring the individual coils power wires in a jumper fashion rather than running an individual power wire from the icm to each coil?


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (VRdublove)*

The length of this topic makes me wish there was a way to do a search within the topic. So far. I've only been able to restrict my searches to the entire 2.8l 12v VR6 Engine Forum. Anyone know a trick?
I just got my Accel coils today. The mounting holes in the coils are all metal sleeved, and my bolts thread directly into my aluminum bracket. Thus, it's going to be very difficult to insulate the coils from chassis ground. What are the real issues with that, anyway. Why has everyone been so concerned with insulating the coils from ground? It seems like the coils should actually be grounded in order to provide a fixed ground for the high-tension spark voltage to reference. If not, wouldn't the spark voltage be "floating" and unpredictable?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (o2bad455)*

The coil has a constant 12v supply delivered to it, the ground is the line thats actually switched (opened and closed) this allows the coil to maintain a full charge, and then be ready for immediate discharge. 
Hence, have the coil ground out, will pretty much result in the open flow of power through the coil.


----------



## justanothermk2vr (May 20, 2006)

*Re: (justanothermk2vr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *justanothermk2vr* »_
any one got pics of this setup installed??

i agree with what he said


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (justanothermk2vr)*

of what set up installed?


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (Cubix)*

I havent posted much lately about this since I haven't touched it in months since I'm lazy, have no garage yet and its too ****ing cold out to be outside for any length of time, but I just found something yesterday that looks promising. 
Its actually a ttl driver board for those smash and bash robots that people build, but its got a ds2003 chip on it that is 7 channels and switches +5v signals up to any voltage you feed it up to like 50v. 
http://www.superdroidrobots.co...id=49
(this is not guaranteed to work as it hasnt been tested, so don't waste your money yet.. let me waste mine first) I ordered one and am going to assemble it when it comes in...and if there's a decent day that is above freezing, I'll see if I can get it working
I'm hoping to feed it the +5v ecu signal and +12v with some resistors to drop the voltage down a bit for the V+ step up, and have its outputs trigger vb921vz igbt coil driver chips attached to a coil. I had previously tried various things going directly from the 5v lines but they dont put out enough juice for anything really.
I also found some coils from 034 motorsports that say they have a coil driver built in. problem is they are single output coils, so it would require 6 of em, and they are $70ea... but if someone with a fatter wallet than me wants to try em out, be my guest








http://www.034motorsport.com/p...d=277

It's been slow going, but I haven't given up.... yet 










_Modified by Slayer at 9:45 PM 1-17-2008_


----------



## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

Not sure if this has been talked about, cause 28 pages is alot to go through. If you use these 3 MSD coils, can you use run a bigger gap, like .035, instead of the stock .028?


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (WeeZFan69)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WeeZFan69* »_Not sure if this has been talked about, cause 28 pages is alot to go through. If you use these 3 MSD coils, can you use run a bigger gap, like .035, instead of the stock .028?

yep, more juice so it'll spark across a bigger gap


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (Slayer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slayer* »_ I havent posted much lately about this since I haven't touched it in months since I'm lazy, have no garage yet and its too ****ing cold out to be outside for any length of time, but I just found something yesterday that looks promising. 
Its actually a ttl driver board for those smash and bash robots that people build, but its got a ds2003 chip on it that is 7 channels and switches +5v signals up to any voltage you feed it up to like 50v. 
http://www.superdroidrobots.co...id=49
(this is not guaranteed to work as it hasnt been tested, so don't waste your money yet.. let me waste mine first) I ordered one and am going to assemble it when it comes in...and if there's a decent day that is above freezing, I'll see if I can get it working
I'm hoping to feed it the +5v ecu signal and +12v with some resistors to drop the voltage down a bit for the V+ step up, and have its outputs trigger vb921vz igbt coil driver chips attached to a coil. I had previously tried various things going directly from the 5v lines but they dont put out enough juice for anything really.
I also found some coils from 034 motorsports that say they have a coil driver built in. problem is they are single output coils, so it would require 6 of em, and they are $70ea... but if someone with a fatter wallet than me wants to try em out, be my guest








http://www.034motorsport.com/p...d=277

It's been slow going, but I haven't given up.... yet 









_Modified by Slayer at 9:45 PM 1-17-2008_

Good stuff http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (VRdublove)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRdublove* »_I used twelve guage wire for the wiring, other than it possibly being overkill and a slight waste of money, can it cause any problems?

No, a little overkill is not a bad thing.

_Quote, originally posted by *VRdublove* »_Also, is there any benefit in wiring the individual coils power wires in a jumper fashion rather than running an individual power wire from the icm to each coil?

Electrically these are the same.

_Quote, originally posted by *o2bad455* »_The length of this topic makes me wish there was a way to do a search within the topic. So far. I've only been able to restrict my searches to the entire 2.8l 12v VR6 Engine Forum. Anyone know a trick?

Google the thread number (3057180 in this case) and the term you are searching for, for the site:forums.vwvortex.com. I entered _"3057180 ground site:forums.vwvortex.com"_ and got 32 hits.

_Quote, originally posted by *o2bad455* »_The mounting holes in the coils are all metal sleeved, and my bolts thread directly into my aluminum bracket. Thus, it's going to be very difficult to insulate the coils from chassis ground. What are the real issues with that, anyway.

Take a DVM and see if there's continuity between the sleeves and any terminal on the coil. I'd be surprised if there was. If there is, you will need to insulate them; if not you're good.

_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_The coil has a constant 12v supply delivered to it, the ground is the line thats actually switched (opened and closed) this allows the coil to maintain a full charge, and then be ready for immediate discharge. 

When the circuit is open it doesn't matter whether the coil is connected to +12v or ground, the circuit is still open and the coil won't store a charge. It's just wired that way.
All my parts are here except for the plug wires (coming tomorrow) and the bracket (backordered; I'll fabricate my own). Hope to install this weekend despite single digit temperatures. I'm using the ICM out of my existing coil, no plan B...


----------



## T99inFL (Aug 4, 1999)

*Re: (WeeZFan69)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WeeZFan69* »_Not sure if this has been talked about, cause 28 pages is alot to go through. If you use these 3 MSD coils, can you use run a bigger gap, like .035, instead of the stock .028?

The setup works great with a gap of 0.060"


----------



## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

*Re: (T99inFL)*

wow. really?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (WeeZFan69)*

I'd say .045 is a safe bet


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Yep, mine ran fine on .055, never tried it past that though.


_Modified by VRdublove at 6:31 PM 1-18-2008_


----------



## Action Jackson (Nov 20, 2001)

*Re: (VRdublove)*

What spark plugs would you use?


----------



## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

Did you notice any difference running a bigger gap? It should quicken it up a little bit, because a longer spark is going to ignite the fuel sooner and be bale to ignite more fuel right?


----------



## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (WeeZFan69)*

yep thats true but dont go gapping to 80 or something...


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (dtm337)*

80 is huge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thats like, 6.66 feet
you'd need a lightning producer for that
.......
*Next week in the coil pack alternative!*
How do you get an electrical discharge of 5,000,000 volts in your car? We'll show you!


----------



## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (Cubix)*

i meant like .80


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (dtm337)*

I know
but imagine


----------



## Top-NouchVR6 (Jun 6, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

didnt read the entire thread so if this has been asked plz excuse me 
any body use these http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs...86_-1, if so how would you compare them to the accel or msd models


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (Top-NouchVR6)*

I didn't use them, but I did get the specs directly from JEGs and posted up a while back. They seem to be comparable, just not as pretty. Try a search with "JEGs" and my user ID, and the specs should come up. Cheers.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (o2bad455)*

Id guess that most of these types of coils are fairly comparable in operation .


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (o2bad455)*


_Quote, originally posted by *o2bad455* »_Some useful specs (please fill in any missing details that you might know):
Coil / Typical Price / Primary Resistance / Secondary Resistance / Maximum Voltage / Inductance / Turns Ratio / Output Energy
Stock VR6 Coil / $350 / unknown*6
MSD 8224 / $46*3 / 0.35ohm / 7.8Kohm / 40KV / 4.2mH / 80:1 / unknown
Accel 140017 / $39*3 / 0.5ohm / 8.0Kohm / 45KV / unknown / 75:1 / unknown
Accel Buick V6 140016 / $92 / 0.7ohm / 12.3Kohm / 42KV / unknown / 86:1 / unknown
JEGs 40120 / $32*3 / 0.36ohm / 6.2Kohm / 40KV / unknown / 87:1 / 56MJ


----------



## IN-FLT (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: (o2bad455)*

has anyone tired using the MSD "kit" wire set ... can u get their boot down in the VR head to the plug?


----------



## Top-NouchVR6 (Jun 6, 2007)

*Re: (o2bad455)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif thanks this helps alot i think i'll be goin with the jegs 
when i do it i'll post picks (maybe the all black look wont be to bad??)


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (IN-FLT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *IN-FLT* »_has anyone tired using the MSD "kit" wire set ... can u get their boot down in the VR head to the plug?

As I wrote on the first page, I did originally use the MSD kit wires. They worked fine, however, because of the depth of the plugs and the lack of a metal tongue to grab on to, it was difficult to remove. I'd strongly advice using di-electric grease on the spark plug boots so you can pull them off.
I also used two zip ties on each plug boot at opposite sides of each other to give the OE puller something to grab on two. I don't have any picture, but hopefully you can imagine what I'm talking about


----------



## kmg108 (Jan 24, 2003)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_I also used two zip ties on each plug boot at opposite sides of each other to give the OE puller something to grab on two. I don't have any picture, but hopefully you can imagine what I'm talking about

This is simply genius. No car is complete without a zip tie somewhere.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (kmg108)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kmg108* »_
This is simply genius. No car is complete without a zip tie somewhere.










hehehehe


----------



## DaBeeterEater (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

ok fellas im out of ideas, i have been running the accell coils for a while now, after i got a good ICM i put about 8-9k miles on the setup with no problems at all, 
now all of a sudden one went bad 2/5, replaced it and it was fine,
about 3k later 3/4 went, 
so i found out the wires were arcing to ground, so last night i went back fixed everthing made sure there was no way that they could ground out and everything was great the my car was running awsome, then this moorning i got on it and hit boost and tapped the rev limmiter once and that was it as soon as i hit 15lbs is misses, i have not scanned yet to see what cyl is missing but i know one is bad again.
the setup is a vrt, accell coils, i have a 1.2 ohm resistor in thepower wire. and gap is .24, anything wider than that it blows out the spark,

this sucks ass and im out of ideas guys i need some help.


----------



## kmg108 (Jan 24, 2003)

*Re: (DaBeeterEater)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DaBeeterEater* »_the setup is a vrt, accell coils, i have a 1.2 ohm resistor in thepower wire. and gap is .24, anything wider than that it blows out the spark.

By no means am I an expert on this, but I've read alot about it and started to collect the parts to actually do it.
I think your resistor may be the wrong value. You might try deleting it from the circuit to see if that helps. Also, your gap should be opened to approx .035 -.045 once you remove the resistor. Keep us posted because I have a vrt as well and this will be helpful when I finally take the plunge. 15 lbs is my low setting with a new OEM coilpack. 
Did I read somewhere that these coils have a rev limit?? I wonder if that is a factor since you're using a resistor? 


_Modified by kmg108 at 10:32 AM 1-22-2008_


----------



## DaBeeterEater (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: (kmg108)*

well origoinally i put this setup on before i was turbo, and i did it without a resistor and it woudl fry a coil in a cupple days, 
i measured the voltage to the coils and i dont get over 13v to them, maybe like 13.2 at the most from what i can tell, 
i dont have any resistance to ground either.


----------



## all-starr-me (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: (DaBeeterEater)*

Having that resistor in there is going to bring the voltages way down from 45kV so you can't run a big gap and are back to stock voltages. which will blow out the spark pretty easy at small gaps. if you are blowing coils something else is wrong, like the ICM is bad. either gap down to .022 if you are keeping the resistor, or run without it and take full advantage of the available voltage, possible gaps etc.
The info sheet I got with an msd super 2 coil I used on a dizzy car said the ballast resistor was for old points and condensor setups, not modern stuff like ours so i would ditch it.


----------



## DaBeeterEater (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: (all-starr-me)*

yeah im gonna try taking out the resistor, and i need to buy a new ICM somehow without buying the whole damthing, 
and i think i have another problem and it may be associated with it, now my dash is quitting, the tach and speedo just stop working then come back on and the dash just shuts off and on for no reason so i think its related


----------



## V.R.Lvr (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: (DaBeeterEater)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DaBeeterEater* »_i dont have any resistance to ground either. 

No resistence to ground is a short, unless you mean open or "OFL" displays on your multimeter.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (V.R.Lvr)*

When I was playing around with testing the ECU signals I shorted out and had dash problems and such,turned out to be the ignition switch.
lame


----------



## vr_sex'n (Aug 9, 2007)

just bought all this stuff at cost threw a auto parts store my work has an account at. cost me way cheaper then a coil pack at cost even. BUT instead of using the MSD 3311 i used the 8850 witch comes with the same items but 8 of them total and is only 15.99 retail. Not what i paid but still you get 2 extra for the same price as buying 3 pairs of 3311. i think im gonna make my mount of of plexi glass. FTW msd plug wire crimps are like $80.00!!! F*** that!!! Ill post some pics when i finish tomorrow.


----------



## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (vr_sex'n)*

anyone using the gm style coil pack ,,,,can you post a close up pic of the terminal diagram ,,,,idk if the accell one has the b+ marked on it but the oem one does not ,,, i got the oem one new for 29.00 bucks 
online ...it says it tosses 40k volts so well see ,,,


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (itb76)*

Got it done last weekend, had no time to dump the photos 'til today. So far I'd say it's a qualified success. Doesn't miss in the rain anymore (turned out to be a bad plug wire), of course it's been too cold to rain. Better throttle response, seems to rev better and maybe slightly more power--hard to tell when all the roads are covered in snow. No change in fuel mileage. I got a resistor but did not wire it up.
Anyway on to the pix...
Had to fabricate my own bracket. The diamond plate aluminum is very easy to work with, but proved in the end to make a rather flimsy bracket. As a result on two occasions I had a miss. Fiddling with the wires underneath solved the miss. As a result I've got a Gruven bracket on order.
































I've read too many Carroll Smith books to just cut the old bolts down, so I got new M6x50 socket head bolts from McMaster Carr.








Got to sort out this mess of wires. The wires from Fourseasons fit the terminals great, and are correct in length, but they're larger wires and don't fit the factory guides. I got some of those Accel wire separators, just haven't fitted them yet.
















400 miles on the mod so far. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## IN-FLT (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Well now that the car has been running.... no major issues as of yet!








She runs well and strong! I am running the resistor, no issues.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (IN-FLT)*

PS. I recommend using lock nuts/locking washers on the bolts, I was checking mine out and noticed all 6 nuts are gone
oops.


----------



## xxxfattonyxxx (Oct 25, 2003)

*Re: (Top-NouchVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Top-NouchVR6* »_didnt read the entire thread so if this has been asked plz excuse me 
any body use these http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs...86_-1, if so how would you compare them to the accel or msd models 

I take it you posted this before you PMed me


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Hooray for zip ties! My wires are in much better order now...









_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_PS. I recommend using lock nuts/locking washers on the bolts, I was checking mine out and noticed all 6 nuts are gone
oops.

I used green Loctite on the bolts holding the coil to the bracket. I'd **** if one of those nuts came off....







I recommend against lock washers, they don't really work as well as Loctite or jam nuts IMHO.


----------



## vr_sex'n (Aug 9, 2007)

I spent about $3 a bolt and $2 a nut today on chrome hex style. replaced the OE ones that mount the coil to the head with the same. Cost me about $36 total but it looks alot cleaner.
Also had a quick question about the firing order for the coil packs. They run 1/6 3/4 2/5 it dosn't matter witch two wires you have on each coil pack aslong as its the same two pairs? like 1/6 cant be put on backwards to be 6/1? they both fire at the same time or what? Also hope my ICM is good still from my bad coil pack, we'll see tomorrow I guess


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (itb76)*


_Quote, originally posted by *itb76* »_Hooray for zip ties! My wires are in much better order now...










That looks great!
You can switch sides 1&6, 2&5, 3&4. The coils run as a wasted spark system and fire both sides at once. You can also physically position the coils any way you want (1/6, 2/5, 3/4 or 2/5, 1/6, 3/4, etc, as long as you wire them correctly)


----------



## jettaglx91 (Jul 27, 2004)

*Re: (Cubix)*

some pics of the coil setup i made. i used the buick coil, what do you guys think?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (jettaglx91)*

Nice!!
On another note. I _might_ be selling my set up soon, considering i'll be scrapping my car








Rust....


----------



## kmg108 (Jan 24, 2003)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_Nice!!
On another note. I _might_ be selling my set up soon, considering i'll be scrapping my car








Rust....









Save it for your next vr6...unless you're getting a Honda.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (kmg108)*

Yea I might save it for my next vr6
But I'm thinking of picking up a new 08 wabbit for the time being
so we'll see


----------



## DaBeeterEater (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_When I was playing around with testing the ECU signals I shorted out and had dash problems and such,turned out to be the ignition switch.
lame


i sent you a pm, i think i have the same problem


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: (jettaglx91)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jettaglx91* »_










I like! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Bolt the ICM to the car then the coils to the ICM I assume?


----------



## jettaglx91 (Jul 27, 2004)

*Re: (itb76)*


_Quote, originally posted by *itb76* »_
I like! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Bolt the ICM to the car then the coils to the ICM I assume? 

yea i left enough slack with the wires inside


----------



## kmg108 (Jan 24, 2003)

*Re: (jettaglx91)*

I just came across this thread and wondered if anyone had thoughts about it.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3602953
Does anyone know how to hook these up since each one had (4) wires? I thing 1 is (+) and 1 is (-) 1 is trigger and 1 is constant? Anyone?


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: (kmg108)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kmg108* »_I just came across this thread and wondered if anyone had thoughts about it.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3602953
Does anyone know how to hook these up since each one had (4) wires? I thing 1 is (+) and 1 is (-) 1 is trigger and 1 is constant? Anyone?


_Quote, originally posted by *shapiror* »_here's the link for the msd diagram: http://store.summitracing.com/...2Epdf. i'm pretty sure the wiring is quite simple. just put the two 12v together and the 2 coil leads together. the only reason there are two 12v and two coil leads is for if the cylinders do not fire at the same time so you can have different spark timing per plug.
since with this engine 2 cylinders fire at the same time, just splice the wires together and have them act as one.
btw, the colors in the diagram i emailed you correspond to the coloring on the msd 8870s.

_Modified by shapiror at 12:00 AM 4-9-2007_

I like the concept of the 8870 mount, since the terminals that plug into the coils are not the standard size. I had to trim mine down with tin snips to make them fit. However I don't see how you can easily make everything fit under the hood using the 8870s.


----------



## kmg108 (Jan 24, 2003)

*Re: (itb76)*


_Quote, originally posted by *itb76* »_
I like the concept of the 8870 mount, since the terminals that plug into the coils are not the standard size. I had to trim mine down with tin snips to make them fit. However I don't see how you can easily make everything fit under the hood using the 8870s.

I have the 8870's arriving today and the Gruven bracket will be here very soon as well. I'll get it to fit and then post pics. I was mainly concerned about how to wire them in. I read the install instructions as well, but it only references how to interface them with DIS2/DIS4 units or the factory GM ICM (which I dont believe is a batch fire like the vr6). To simply connect the two black wires together and the two white wires together for each interface seems too easy. I guess I'll find out soon enough.
Thanks for the help.
P>S. Can anyone else confirm the wiring for the 8870's is that simple?


_Modified by kmg108 at 10:14 PM 2-1-2008_


----------



## veearesixxer (Jan 15, 2005)

is there a difference between coil packs, or is it just for looks? because MSD accell summit and jegs all have one, some different prices, are any better then others?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (veearesixxer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *veearesixxer* »_is there a difference between coil packs, or is it just for looks? because MSD accell summit and jegs all have one, some different prices, are any better then others?

I think unless we get dyno runs on the same car with each different coil, I'm not sure anyone could be sure about the actual difference between the coils. I know the accell coils were blowing on Silentdubs vr when he did the mod originally, and thats when MSD became the popular choice for us, but who knows for sure...


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Why this took so long to get here, who knows
*MSD 8870 Instructions*
http://www.msdignition.com/pdf/8870_frm25790.pdf
Looks like you can make on black wire the +12v and the other black wire the trigger, leaving the white ones unused.
At least, thats my understanding of this pdf.


----------



## WobGtiVrSik (Jul 28, 2003)

i have a question. being most of u are very familiar with oem coilpacks.
so i oredered a new one had it put in put all back together. as they were starting up the car. the lights dimmed as if the battery was dead.
tried cranking it. it wouldnt start and started smoking a bit from the ignition area and a small bit from the coil pack itself.
turns out one of the pins on the harness where u plug into the coilpack melted and it would not start at all after so the stock one was put back on and it starts right up.
could the coil pack have been defective?
because even tho the harness itself has a melted pin its plugged into the old stock one now again and works and starts right up.
no smoke no dash lights dimming. (just misfires)


----------



## kmg108 (Jan 24, 2003)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_Why this took so long to get here, who knows
*MSD 8870 Instructions*
http://www.msdignition.com/pdf/8870_frm25790.pdf
Looks like you can make on black wire the +12v and the other black wire the trigger, leaving the white ones unused.
At least, thats my understanding of this pdf.

Thanks alot for the information and help. Ironically, thats the exact opposite of how I was thinking they were to be wird. I need to give this some serious thought cause it cant be too hard. Has anyone successfully wired these in without any issues?


_Modified by kmg108 at 10:11 PM 2-2-2008_


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_Why this took so long to get here, who knows
*MSD 8870 Instructions*
http://www.msdignition.com/pdf/8870_frm25790.pdf
Looks like you can make on black wire the +12v and the other black wire the trigger, leaving the white ones unused.
At least, thats my understanding of this pdf.

My understanding is the opposite, that the black is positive and white is trigger. the instructions are written for the DIS unit and it's difficult to interpret how to use the 8870 _without_ the DIS unit.
If you read the first page of this thread, no one has posted how to successfully use the 8870s.


----------



## kmg108 (Jan 24, 2003)

*Re: (itb76)*

something I noticed in the 8870 instructions were that the GM ICM has two male prongs that actually go into the bottom of the 8870 (just like the two prongs that go into the bottom of each msd coil). Im thinking that is the "input" for power and the wires coming out are "outputs". Can anyone confirm this? If this is the case, I dont see the benefit of using the 8870's because my intention was only to get a better connection without the need for soldering/epoxying the spade terminals into the bottom of the coil. Now I may have to solder/epoxy spade terminals into the bottom of the 8870 interface (which defeats the point).


----------



## squig3273 (Jan 30, 2008)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Dose this application work on the MKVI? I got 2001 VR6 and this looks like a good project







!


----------



## o0bur (Aug 16, 2006)

*Re: (squig3273)*


_Quote, originally posted by *squig3273* »_Dose this application work on the *MKVI?* I got 2001 VR6 and this looks like a good project







!

MKIV - There is no such thing as a 2001 MK6.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (o0bur)*

This will work on all 12v vr6s that us the coilpack setup


----------



## Northren vr6 (May 29, 2004)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_
I think unless we get dyno runs on the same car with each different coil, I'm not sure anyone could be sure about the actual difference between the coils. I know the accell coils were blowing on Silentdubs vr when he did the mod originally, and thats when MSD became the popular choice for us, but who knows for sure...


Dyno wouldn't show ****. Either it works, or it doesn't. Under boost may be a different story tho.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Northren vr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Northren vr6* »_
Dyno wouldn't show ****. Either it works, or it doesn't. Under boost may be a different story tho.

He tooolllddd me..... 























Additional
For those who asked. 
This should be California legal
MSD packs come with a little sticker that says they're super cool number 1 (smog legal)


_Modified by Cubix at 12:34 AM 2-6-2008_


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: (kmg108)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kmg108* »_something I noticed in the 8870 instructions were that the GM ICM has two male prongs that actually go into the bottom of the 8870 (just like the two prongs that go into the bottom of each msd coil). Im thinking that is the "input" for power and the wires coming out are "outputs". Can anyone confirm this? If this is the case, I dont see the benefit of using the 8870's because my intention was only to get a better connection without the need for soldering/epoxying the spade terminals into the bottom of the coil. Now I may have to solder/epoxy spade terminals into the bottom of the 8870 interface (which defeats the point).

Yeah that doesn't make sense, how the 8870 has 4 wires going to 2 prongs. My _guess_ is that the two black wires are the same, and the two white wires are the same. A minute with a volt meter will tell you for sure. Let us know what you find out!


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (itb76)*


_Quote, originally posted by *itb76* »_
Yeah that doesn't make sense, how the 8870 has 4 wires going to 2 prongs. My _guess_ is that the two black wires are the same, and the two white wires are the same. A minute with a volt meter will tell you for sure. Let us know what you find out!


Four wires equals four contact points.... 
2 wires to the tags (male) that go into the bottom of MSD the coils (WHITE WIRES) ... 
and 2 wires that go to the sockets (female) at the bottom of the 8870 (BLACK WIRES)... Not shown in any photos or diagrams yet...
Please don't guess when doing this. Make sure before attempting...
Please re read this...
http://www.msdignition.com/pdf/8870_frm25790.pdf 


_Modified by sc_rufctr at 9:44 PM 2-6-2008_


----------



## squig3273 (Jan 30, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (FourSeasonTuning.com)*

Dose this coil bracket work for a 2001 MK4 VR6?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (squig3273)*

yes sir


----------



## dixierebel0213 (Feb 11, 2008)

Ive got a vr6 corrado the blowed the 1-6 side of the coil pack. I just bought a another coil pack and drove it for about a week and the 3/4 coil quit firing. I was just wondering what could cause a coil pack to blow and what can i do to keep from blowing up another coil and keep from killing another coil before i do the msd conversion?


----------



## Pf3il (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

another convert. we had a few WET days in a row, and then it got pretty cold. i had experienced some misfiring over the past 2 years in wet weather, but it was intermittent and would go away after a few minutes. now it's really bad, can't even drive it. sounds like a subaru and there's no power. tried epoxy and plasti-dip, but no success. i've been doing the research and decided to go this way.








went down to autozone just now. they only had 1 MSD coilpack in stock, so i ordered 2 more and took the 1 home to start fabbing my bracket. i also ordered the MSD wire ends.
i'm stuck on the wires though. they didn't have a whole lot in stock, and of what i saw, none of the spark plug ends of the wires looked like the OEM stuff. what wires do i need to get? i'd prefer to get some generic ones with the proper spark plug end, and cut and crimp to size. thanks.


----------



## Pf3il (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Pf3il)*

anybody? i need to do this tomorrow.


----------



## jettaglx91 (Jul 27, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Pf3il)*

if ur using the gruven bracket i belive you can use the stock wires and change the coil end


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Pf3il)*

I can sell the wire ends and connectors.


----------



## vwnut18t (Jun 5, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (FourSeasonTuning.com)*

Ok fellahs, I have followed this thread since it was holed twice and now onto this one. I am at a point where my coil is taking a crap, and am going to embark on the mod. The question I have is this ground out issue. Are the coils not supposed to ground to the bracket, which in turn grounds to the engine? I was checking out the coils and one of the mounting holes for the coil looks to be made so it does get a ground







I am not an ameture to electrics or mechanics so I can recognize when things are made a certain way. The answer is going to decide how I am going to proceed. I am in the Air National Guard and work Hydraulics so I have some good friends in the Fab/Machine shop that have made the bracket for me out of Aircraft grade aluminum. I also have access to some heavy duty Delrin sheets and can proceed that way too







Thanks in advance http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Pf3il (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (vwnut18t)*

i called MSD about that metal sleeve in the mounting hole between the towers. in the package there's a rubber gasket of sorts that goes under this mounting hole. he told me to use that and i'd be fine. the bolt is still making contact with both the coil and the bracket, and it works fine. i'm guessing it's internally insulated.
for the record, i successfully completed this project. i am not using a resistor. fired up the first time, no issues. i crimped the MSD ends onto my stock wires and fabbed my own bracket (which needs some more tweaking - it's hitting the thermostat right now and i need to shift it up). easy project, especially if you buy a bracket. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif haven't been through a tank of gas yet so i can't comment on mileage, but i've been driving with a heavy foot lately because i'm happy to have my car back.


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Pf3il)*

I took a volt meter and measured to see if there was continuity between this metal sleeve and any terminal on the coil. There is not. If you're going to have grounding issues it's with your wire terminals. The female terminals where your wires go into the coil on the bottom are so close to the mounting bolt it's difficult to keep the wires from touching your bracket or the bolt. That's where I used those rubber gaskets. Insulate those terminals as best you can.
Good luck. My car runs more smoothly but no increase in gas mileage. I still have the stock NGK plugs at the stock gap.


----------



## Top-NouchVR6 (Jun 6, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (FourSeasonTuning.com)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FourSeasonTuning.com* »_I can sell the wire ends and connectors.

youve got pm


----------



## Top-NouchVR6 (Jun 6, 2007)

*Re: (xxxfattonyxxx)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xxxfattonyxxx* »_
I take it you posted this before you PMed me









haha yea and i just pmed u 2day again


----------



## vwnut18t (Jun 5, 2004)

*Re: (Top-NouchVR6)*

Thanks for answering all my questions guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Not gonna do the swap now though unless I get another VR dub. I got hit in the front end yesturday and my passat is done







We will see. Keep up the good thread http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 2slogetta (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (FourSeasonTuning.com)*


_Quote, originally posted by *FourSeasonTuning.com* »_I can sell the wire ends and connectors.

Do you have a Pre-Made Wire Set???
Also, has anyone ever tried the Duralast Coilpacks #C849? Or are they just a hell no










_Modified by 2slogetta at 4:59 PM 2-17-2008_


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (2slogetta)*

Fourseason has a really nice pre-made wire set available in several colors. That's what I got. They're larger diameter than stock so you won't use the stock wire guides. I posted photos a page or two back.


----------



## Yetti 1.8t (Feb 23, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (itb76)*

lets keep this going i'm looking to do it in the near future. my coil seems to be on its way out.


----------



## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

Ho guys, it has been a while since I chimed in here.
I still have the MSD coil set up and still have no ill effects.

I am rolled over 180K miles, and the wheels on this car keep on turning.............


----------



## dmlevel.com (Oct 5, 2005)

i see that this thread is long as F*Ck...
well bought some stuff so here is my set up. if im doing something wrong with this set up let me know? It's foe a 2000 gti VR6 12v
crack 1








crack2








crack 3








epoxy to seal the cracks








spark plugs NGK V power BKR6E copper core








Bahn Brenner BBM 8mm Silicone Spark Plug Wires


----------



## kyle_b (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: (dmlevel.com)*

if anyone with a mkiv needs a spare output stage(ignitior) ive have two in my toolbox at work.


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: (dmlevel.com)*

dmlevel, your fix will work short term but eventually it will fail. This thread is about replacing your cracked coil pack with higher performance units. This approach costs more up front but should last much longer, and the car drives better. Note that stock wires will not work with MSD coils, so if you buy new stock wires now then decide to go with high performance coils you'll be buying new wires again.
IIRC no one has demonstrated that the MSD setup makes more power...


----------



## Smoke Doctor (Aug 12, 2007)

*crazy misfiring*

So i just did the coilpack setup with jegs coils and the nice new bracket and so on. I started her up and it misfires not really bad but enough not to want to drive. Also my resitor gets pretty hot while running for about 5 min. Is that normal. please help. this is my daily driver. O and also i have semi bad wires that i will replace tomorrow there the crimp yourself ones. But it misfires pretty bad.. Lmk if ya have any imput on what could be causing this.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: crazy misfiring (Smoke Doctor)*

I'm guessing you're going to have to lose the semi-bad wires first
are the misfires on paired cylinders?


----------



## dmlevel.com (Oct 5, 2005)

*Re: (itb76)*

itb76
i see that the thread is about replacing the cracked coil pack but i dont think i can actually set up the MSD coils myself. im on a budget







also, the wires im buying are not stock. look at the picture of the wires above.


----------



## jettaglx91 (Jul 27, 2004)

*Re: (dmlevel.com)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dmlevel.com* »_itb76
i see that the thread is about replacing the cracked coil pack but i dont think i can actually set up the MSD coils myself. im on a budget







also, the wires im buying are not stock. look at the picture of the wires above.

what he was refferring to is if you do the msd conversion those new plug wires wont really work 

meaning that if you plan on doing the upgrade dont buy new wires yet.
and there is really no reason to post about epoxy'ing your stock cracked coil, it serves no purpose to the thread


_Modified by jettaglx91 at 2:27 PM 2-22-2008_


----------



## Smoke Doctor (Aug 12, 2007)

OK so all my coils are making spark but it seems like it is running on less cylinders!! no power and its like i have a bad maf but its good. i swapped in a good one.. Maybe injectors?


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: (Smoke Doctor)*

My guess is it's your wires since you said they were marginal. If you replace them make sure the wires going into the coils are not grounding on the bracket or the bolt that holds the coil down. Mine did at first and the car missed badly. 
If these don't check out I'd scan it with VAG-com, or have your local Auto Zone read the codes and report them here.


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: crazy misfiring (Smoke Doctor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Smoke Doctor* »_...Also my resitor gets pretty hot while running for about 5 min. Is that normal...

Did you get the Radio Shack or Accel resistor? I imagine it's normal for the resistor to get hot but I don't run one.


----------



## Smoke Doctor (Aug 12, 2007)

*Re: crazy misfiring (itb76)*

I have the radio shack one. Im making sure nothing is grounding. it is not like a missfire its like nothing is working right. its just putting


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: crazy misfiring (Smoke Doctor)*

radio shack one will burn out, its too small


----------



## Smoke Doctor (Aug 12, 2007)

*Re: crazy misfiring (Cubix)*

isnt that the one most people choose? Were do i get another one.. I wanna run without it but dont wanna fry any coils. But which one can i get and where? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: crazy misfiring (Smoke Doctor)*

You can get it from summit, but honestly I started with the radio shack, it blew, I bypassed it (hence all the spade connectors, they came in handy!) and I've been running without one, no issues


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: crazy misfiring (Smoke Doctor)*

I got an Accel resistor from Jegs but never used it. A "putt putt" is what an ignition miss sounds like (a bad MAF won't do this). If you're certain of the wires and no ground faults have your codes read. That will point you in the right direction.


----------



## nixxxxxxxz (Mar 6, 2007)

*Re: crazy misfiring (itb76)*

Anyone know what the rubber hose is on top of the coil pack is for? Mine came popped off it looks like don't know where to reattach it. Its on an MK4


----------



## dmlevel.com (Oct 5, 2005)

*Re: (jettaglx91)*

ok i got it... why wont the msd coil pack work with those wires?


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: (dmlevel.com)*

The wire ends are different on a VW coil pack compared to the MSD (the spark plug ends are the same). The MSD coil packs we're using are actually designed for a GM application. Since they're not actually made by GM most of our cars keep running after the mod is made....


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (itb76)*


_Quote, originally posted by *itb76* »_Since they're not actually made by GM most of our cars keep running after the mod is made....













































HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Yea, the coils use whats called HEI ends, James at fourseasontuning sells OEM style wires with HEI ends pre-crimped on, they work excellent, 
I need to take a pic of the final look for the first page, I keep forgetting to do that.


----------



## Joey Russo (Apr 9, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

I couldn't find it in this post that well but is there a good place to buy that resistor? What is it called specifically? Radio hack?
Are there any exact wiring diagrams for it to be tapped inline with as well?
Sorry for the n00b question of course


----------



## dmlevel.com (Oct 5, 2005)

*Re: (itb76)*

thanks


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Joey Russo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Joey Russo* »_I couldn't find it in this post that well but is there a good place to buy that resistor? What is it called specifically? Radio hack?
Are there any exact wiring diagrams for it to be tapped inline with as well?
Sorry for the n00b question of course









They sell some at summit
they are called ballast resistors
you really don't need it in this application.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Cubix)*

I should've put this up a looonnnggg time ago, but here's my final set up, I copied the wiring style of one of the members a bunch of pages back









PS, I know its dirty, and looking at the photo, I realized one of the bolt fell out, hahaha


----------



## Dutchsider (Apr 27, 2006)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Just got my setup today. Looking forward to getting all wired up http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Thanks Will


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Dutchsider)*

had my first misfire the other day
lots of rain
cold
hit a puddle
opened the hood and there was seriously a bucket of water sitting on all the coils
let the car sit running for a little bit so it could dry and then it ran fine.
i'm thinking water got between the spade connector and the bracket, rather then it being a problem with the actual coil, will research this upcoming week.


----------



## clunkyVR6 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Immediately after completing my setup I soaked it in a silicon based ignition spray (twice) that I picked up at Canadian Tire (in Canada obviously)... I'm sure Kragens would have something similar down here.
I've hit some torrential rains and massive puddles in the 70,000kms since installing the MSDs and haven't skipped a beat yet http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (clunkyVR6)*

I love canadian tire dollars you can get them everywhere up there!
they just brighten my day


----------



## mchl2121 (Jan 31, 2007)

Is anyone running the Shock Therapy by Autotech(10.4 mm) wire set from MJM with the MSD coil setup? Or will that wire set even work the the MSD coils?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (mchl2121)*

the MSD coils use HEI ends, not the ends that work with the OE pack
wow I feel like I totally stalked your post because I replied all of 30 seconds after you posted


----------



## lamune (Dec 8, 2003)

*Volvo ICM*

For those of you who've used the alternative (Volvo) ICM- did it work? I'm poised to do this mod and I want to bypass the stock ICM entirely without spending $500 on the MSD DIS-4


----------



## mchl2121 (Jan 31, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

If I wanted to use the 10.4 mm wires are there HEI ends that I can use to replace the OE end? 
I also found a thread talking about needing an adapter for the tach..........


----------



## mchl2121 (Jan 31, 2007)

*Re: (mchl2121)*

would this work?
http://store.summitracing.com/...w=sku


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (mchl2121)*

no tach adapters are needed for this project
I believe James over at fourseasontuning can get you the ends
Honestly, I'm not sure you'd see any increase from using the thicker wire, you could just order the pre made set, they work great


----------



## Tire_Marx (Mar 4, 2004)

*Re: (mchl2121)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mchl2121* »_would this work?
http://store.summitracing.com/...w=sku

thats just ONE wire, and its listed as a 48 inch long wire for "any coil"


----------



## mchl2121 (Jan 31, 2007)

ook gotcha, another question........
Does anyone have the detailed dimensions of the bracket that Gruven/FourSeasons sells. I am looking to fabricate my own.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (mchl2121)*

Don't have the details on me, but you can always just make something up, as long as you're fabricating it yourself you can do some wild things


----------



## mchl2121 (Jan 31, 2007)

Right now, my current coil-pack is arching, causing the engine to mis-fire. Can I do the coilpack conversion or do I need to get a new coilpack........


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (mchl2121)*

You can try it, but the ICM may have been damaged due to the arching
For some reason the ICM seems to be my resilient when paired with the oe coil, probably has something to do with the OE coil using a lot less power.


----------



## Top-NouchVR6 (Jun 6, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

when i did the conversion yesterday i drilled into the bottom of the icm a lil bit but right after the car started and ran great no miss nothing....but this morn the car had a nasty miss on the way out when i got back home the car shutt off and now has no spark


----------



## Top-NouchVR6 (Jun 6, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

but im thinkin if i damaged the icm then i wouldnt have ran good last nite...but wat do you guys think? should i just source another icm and try it with that?


----------



## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (Top-NouchVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Top-NouchVR6* »_but im thinkin if i damaged the icm then i wouldnt have ran good last nite...but wat do you guys think? should i just source another icm and try it with that? 

yep i would and check all the connections as well.


----------



## Top-NouchVR6 (Jun 6, 2007)

*Re: (dtm337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dtm337* »_
yep i would and check all the connections as well.

yea that was another problem the connections ddint seem to hold the way i would like either


----------



## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (Top-NouchVR6)*

i just soldered the crap out of it and gave it 3 layers or heat shrink


----------



## Top-NouchVR6 (Jun 6, 2007)

*Re: (dtm337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dtm337* »_i just soldered the crap out of it and gave it 3 layers or heat shrink 

haha yea you have no worries about wires falling out place


----------



## HOTSKILLET98 (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

I did the mod a while back with slight improvement but I still have a slight misfire. Is there a way to test ICM and if the ICM is bad, what is the best alternative, e.g. buy new/used VR6 coil...?
Car is running DTA P8 PRO


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (HOTSKILLET98)*

If you have a volt meter that checks diodes you can test the ICM like it's three transistors. Check each trigger wire against terminal 15 and ground. I don't know what the numbers mean but all three triggers should test the same. To the best of my knowledge no one has found a good alternative to the stock ICM, which is only available as part of the coil pack.








Before you do all that you may want to scan it with VAG-com and verify that the miss is ignition related.


_Modified by itb76 at 10:35 PM 3-9-2008_


----------



## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (itb76)*

ok so after watching this thread for sooooo long and taking into consideration all the input on here i decided how i am going to do this for my car ,,,,im using the gm style coil pack ,,,with the stock mk4 icm 
started playing with some delrin on a cnc and this is what i came up with ,,,,,,
mount the icm to the spacer with the stock bolts then the pack mounts to the spacer ,,,with six bolts all the wireing stays inside the spacer and its plastic so no chance of grounding out ,,,,ps ill use black delrin for the finished product .....lmk what you guys think..



























_Modified by dtm337 at 2:36 PM 3-11-2008_


----------



## IwannaGTI (Jul 12, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (dtm337)*

that's pretty sick. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (dtm337)*

Most excellent! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (dtm337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dtm337* »_ok so after watching this thread for sooooo long and taking into consideration all the input on here i decided how i am going to do this for my car ,,,,im using the gm style coil pack ,,,with the stock mk4 icm 
started playing with some delrin on a cnc and this is what i came up with ,,,,,,
mount the icm to the spacer with the stock bolts then the pack mounts to the spacer ,,,with six bolts all the wireing stays inside the spacer and its plastic so no chance of grounding out ,,,,ps ill use black delrin for the finished product .....lmk what you guys think..

























_Modified by dtm337 at 2:36 PM 3-11-2008_

nice to see a nice design instead of all the crap that other people here are building
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (.therealvrt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *.therealvrt* »_
nice to see a nice design instead of all the crap that other people here are building
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

kinda harsh...


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

I think if more people had access to a CNC machine you would see some very sweet looking designs.
What I like about this mod is that you have a chance to design something original on your car instead of the usual bolt on stuff... And if someone can make something from leftover scraps then that's cool too.
VW modding has always been about individualism and originality.


----------



## vaporado (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (sc_rufctr)*

I did the MSD GM Coils setup with the dis4 when I was NA 12V VR6. I just am finishing up my turbo project and wanted to know if there was anyone else VR6T running this setup and what you have you plugs gapped at. I read through most of this thread but only saw what people were gapping theyre plugs at NA.
TIA


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (vaporado)*

I know theres a few. One thing the previous thread had was a list of all people running the set up, so maybe we should start that here.
If have have the project done, PM me you Name/Vortex name/Year of engine NA or FI/Running gap/Are you running a resistor
AJ - Cubix - 97 VR6 N/A, stock gap, no resistor
Walt- vaporado- 1991 Corrado VR swap was N/A, .050" gap, no resistor


_Modified by Cubix at 3:39 PM 3-12-2008_


----------



## vaporado (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

^ I remember the thread before it vanished into thin air. I am having a few idling issues and random misfires. I dont know what to do about the gap sizing considering there arent a lot of us out there doing this mod. Anyone with any info on the gap size for a VRT would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (vaporado)*

is it a consistent misfire or just here and there
If constant, I'd say gap & ICM
If occasional, maybe a dirty injector or something else not spark related


----------



## cacapino (Apr 6, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Just finished my setup 
















runs so much better, no misfires on startup


----------



## IwannaGTI (Jul 12, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (vaporado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vaporado* »_I did the MSD GM Coils setup with the dis4 when I was NA 12V VR6. I just am finishing up my turbo project and wanted to know if there was anyone else VR6T running this setup and what you have you plugs gapped at. I read through most of this thread but only saw what people were gapping theyre plugs at NA.
TIA









.044 on my vrt http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (cacapino)*

Lookin good cacapino!
Now that I have some money rollin in, I'm going to start looking at new ICMs again, see if we can't get rid of that sucker!


----------



## vaporado (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (IwannaGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *IwannaGTI* »_
.044 on my vrt http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

How long have you been running that gap on your VRT?


----------



## DaBeeterEater (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (IwannaGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *IwannaGTI* »_
.044 on my vrt http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

i dont understand that, i can not run a gap any bigger than .22
any bigger than that and it blows out, how the hell are you running .44 that is insane WTF


----------



## IwannaGTI (Jul 12, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (DaBeeterEater)*

running it for 6+ months (granted the car needs chains and a clutch)


----------



## vaporado (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (DaBeeterEater)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DaBeeterEater* »_
i dont understand that, i can not run a gap any bigger than .22
any bigger than that and it blows out, how the hell are you running .44 that is insane WTF









I have actually heard of people gapping to .060 FI'd. Just cant seem to find it in this long azz thread.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (vaporado)*

yea some people in the last thread were running FI and .060"
It's crazzyyy

_Quote, originally posted by *DaBeeterEater* »_
i dont understand that, i can not run a gap any bigger than .22
any bigger than that and it blows out, how the hell are you running .44 that is insane WTF









what kind of plugs are you running?


----------



## vr_sex'n (Aug 9, 2007)

My setup. Sold my car yesterday tho.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (vr_sex'n)*

the new owners gonna be like 
whoa


----------



## DaBeeterEater (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_yea some people in the last thread were running FI and .060"
It's crazzyyy
what kind of plugs are you running?

im running bkr7e's with .22 gap, works fine but i would love to open up the gap to get better spark out of it but i cant, 
that is why i cant belive it that people are runnning that kind of huge gap, how the hell are they doing it


----------



## tourvdub (Apr 5, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (dtm337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dtm337* »_ok so after watching this thread for sooooo long and taking into consideration all the input on here i decided how i am going to do this for my car ,,,,im using the gm style coil pack ,,,with the stock mk4 icm 
started playing with some delrin on a cnc * and this is what i came up with* ,,,,,,
mount the icm to the spacer with the stock bolts then the pack mounts to the spacer ,,,with six bolts all the wireing stays inside the spacer and its plastic so no chance of grounding out ,,,,ps ill use black delrin for the finished product .....lmk what you guys think..
_Modified by dtm337 at 2:36 PM 3-11-2008_
 

WOW........just wow.......










_Modified by tourvdub at 4:15 AM 3-14-2008_


----------



## xxxfattonyxxx (Oct 25, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (VRdublove)*

So I finally got the car out last week and she runs like a champ. The reason I did the swap was because I had lost a lot of power on the bottom end. After doing the swap I realised it was the fuel filter all along


----------



## HOTSKILLET98 (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (itb76)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HOTSKILLET98* »_Car is running DTA P8 PRO


_Quote, originally posted by *itb76* »_...Before you do all that you may want to scan it with VAG-com and verify that the miss is ignition related.


----------



## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (HOTSKILLET98)*

just built a coilpack for a friend that bought his own bracket
not to my liking ( i like no wires out in the open) but he is happy











_Modified by .therealvrt at 10:27 PM 3-18-2008_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (.therealvrt)*

I like the way you wrapped that a lot


----------



## Yetti 1.8t (Feb 23, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

would these wires work?
http://store.summitracing.com/...w=sku
and i'll be using the accel coil packs. is there any difference in resistors with ehe accel as apposed to the msd?
and what tool do you guys like best for removing and installing wires without the pullers. 
sorry for the questions just wanna make sure i get it right the first time around


----------



## ubercruizinvr6 (Jul 6, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Yetti 1.8t)*

Schley makes a good puller:








Try either http://www.autotech.com or http://www.parts4vws.com, they usually have them in stock. Usually anywhere from $40-$45.00. 


_Modified by ubercruizinvr6 at 1:00 PM 3-19-2008_


----------



## IN-FLT (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (ubercruizinvr6)*

Well ... update on mine.
blew the resistor out. Car just plain died and wouldnt restart. I pretty much figured this is what the issue was.
I took it to a friends shop and his guy there actually tested the ICM and said 1/6 were weak.. the other 2 were fine. So.. there ISSS a way to test the icm!
I know I need a new one and am using a resistor until I can get one. Once I replace the ICM ... I will take out the resistor.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (IN-FLT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *IN-FLT* »_I took it to a friends shop and his guy there actually tested the ICM and said 1/6 were weak.. the other 2 were fine. So.. there ISSS a way to test the icm!

How did he test it?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (itb76)*


_Quote, originally posted by *itb76* »_
How did he test it?

x2 x3 x4 x5 x6


----------



## Yetti 1.8t (Feb 23, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

yea how the hell did he test it. and will the plug wires i said above work???? someone help me out. its 7 am i just got outa work and i'm exhausted. someone has to know if they'll work.


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Yetti 1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Yetti 1.8t* »_and will the plug wires i said above work???? someone help me out. its 7 am i just got outa work and i'm exhausted. someone has to know if they'll work. 
Yeah they'll work. I think I saw that same kit at PepBoys, just make sure you trim them up nice.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Ryan Sickles)*

So, do to some questions I've gotten I want to add some more things to the first page, so heres my
*Information Request*
We know that the MKIII ICM has a Square connector, and MKIV is rounded on one side, are the pins going the same way?
I was under the impression that the MKIII went one way (5-4-3-2-1) and the MKIV goes (1-2-3-4-5)
Also I believe ECSTuning sells the harness to switch between the two generations.
Can we get a photo of the MKIII and MKIV harnesses with an identification of the pins?


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

I just looked to double check. Pin positions are in the exact same place between MKIII and MKIV; it's just the shape of the round/square connection that is different because of the new/old harnesses.


----------



## IN-FLT (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Ryan Sickles)*

Next time I am over there I will ask him how he tested it.. i did see a pretty nice tool sitting out... so I am guessing you will need something like it or know someone with one.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Ryan Sickles)*

Hmm, alright.
Well I guess that won't cause the problem then, though for some reason I remember hearing people having problems when they tried to use a mix of old an new.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (IN-FLT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *IN-FLT* »_Next time I am over there I will ask him how he tested it.. i did see a pretty nice tool sitting out... so I am guessing you will need something like it or know someone with one.

Sorry we stepped on eachother
That'd be really cool, I'd feel bad if there was some super simple way of testing the ICM. Could've saved a lot of time!


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

any word on how they tested the ICM???


----------



## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (ubercruizinvr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ubercruizinvr6* »_Schley makes a good puller:








Try either http://www.autotech.com or http://www.parts4vws.com, they usually have them in stock. Usually anywhere from $40-$45.00. 


Fwiw, you'll have to modify the metal tabs on the plug wires from fourseasons in order to get that puller to fit.


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative ('dubber)*


_Quote, originally posted by *’dubber* »_Fwiw, you'll have to modify the metal tabs on the plug wires from fourseasons in order to get that puller to fit.

Worked fine for me without any modification. YMMV.


----------



## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (itb76)*


_Quote, originally posted by *itb76* »_
Worked fine for me without any modification. YMMV.

Yeah, the tabs on my Schley puller were too tall for the spaces on the metal wires, so I just dremeled them a bit.


----------



## 1fast96gti (Mar 8, 2008)

just to let you guys know i will be running this setup with the coil msd interfaces, but not with the msd coils.. and my own bracket, it should be sweet...


----------



## kmg108 (Jan 24, 2003)

*Re: (1fast96gti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1fast96gti* »_just to let you guys know i will be running this setup with the coil msd interfaces, but not with the msd coils.. and my own bracket, it should be sweet...

what coils do you plan to use?


----------



## 1fast96gti (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: (1fast96gti)*

oem gm(out of a junk yard $20 for all 3) for now otherwise summit brand msd. im also running the volvo icm ($50, $30 for connector- through a link in this post)and msd coil interfaces($31.70 through summit need 3), and my own bracket. ill have a full how to on everything im doing that i will post on here and another local forum. and im converting my obx " extension cords" to gm hei style ends. any of the after market coils have to many problems burning out so im going the cheap way (oem)and still getting the same hp as the msd, accels, and all that crap just not burning out as often. and when they do you dont have to wait a week to get a new one.









_Modified by 1fast96gti at 7:53 PM 4-3-2008_


_Modified by 1fast96gti at 7:53 PM 4-3-2008_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (1fast96gti)*

Do you know the volvo ICM works?
I thought someone hard tried it unsuccessfully before


----------



## 1fast96gti (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: (Cubix)*

ya it works if you wire it right (the only reason it wouldnt work is if you wired it wrong), but its like wiring the vw icm- your completely getting rid of all the vw ignition. theres no bare wires, the 4 prongs from the vw icm that get left exposed are gone, its a much cleaner look and 10x safer.


----------



## Tire_Marx (Mar 4, 2004)

*Re: (1fast96gti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1fast96gti* »_ya it works if you wire it right (the only reason it wouldnt work is if you wired it wrong), but its like wiring the vw icm- your completely getting rid of all the vw ignition. theres no bare wires, the 4 prongs from the vw icm that get left exposed are gone, its a much cleaner look and 10x safer. 

thus begging the question, how do you wire it right?


----------



## 1fast96gti (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: (Tire_Marx)*

good call to hard to explain on here ill make a diagram and try to post it monday night sometime? its not hard i have it written down you just wouldnt understand it(bad hand writing)


----------



## Pf3il (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: (1fast96gti)*

just wanted to say that i've been running on this setup for a few months now. not a single issue. no resistor either. we've had some really wet weather, and it starts up to a purrrrfect idle every time. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 1fast96gti (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: (Pf3il)*

just got my volvo icm and female connector.. how to coming soon


----------



## euro16v (Dec 12, 1999)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Hello, I've been looking into this topic and researching a method to try and eliminate the stock ICM. During research I found many names for what is referred to in this thread as the ICM, most notably they were ignition Amplifier/Power Output Stage/Ignition Control Unit/Ignitor. The most common name, especially to a VW tech would be the Power Output Stage (and yes, oddly the initials are POS). I have found the early 1.8T Power Output Stage (VW Part #4D0 905 351) so be a suitable replacement that is readily available and easily obtainable. Only the early 1.8t cars used these modules as the later 1.8T integrates the POS directly into each coilpack. There are some differences and similarities to point out. I'll post some pics to help clarify things. 








Our factory VR6 POS is a 5 pin input and 4 pin output. The positive of terminal 5 is pretty much just a direct pass through to terminal 15 on the output. You could actually remove the wire from t5 and connect it directly to the coil packs. The way the remaining terminals work is very interesting once you understand them. I'll give a brief description of what the POS actually does. Lets say cylinder 1 is ready to fire, the ECU sends a signal to t2 which closes a transistor inside the POS. Closing this transistor connects 1/6 from the output side to t1 (ground) of the input side. Since the positive of t5 and 15 is always active, you now have a close loop to coil pack for 1/6 and you get spark ignition to those 2 cylinders. Once I realized that is all the POS is doing, not amplifying the signal or anything else I've read in regard to the POS, it was very simple to understand its function. There is a very simple method to test the POS that I will show you momentarily. Here are some pics of the 1.8T POS that will serve as a much cleaner replacement than the VR6 POS we are stuck with.
Here is the input side:








and the output side:








Although it is still a 5 in 4 out setup, the pins are notably different. Most notable is that the positive terminal voltage supply no longer travels through the POS, but instead is wired directly to the coilpacks of the 1.8T (I would guess that they wired the positive into the VR6 for simplicity due to the nature of the POS being strapped to the coilpack on our cars). The ground pin is relocated to t3. The remaining 4 inputs would be wired to corresponding cylinders, t5 = coilpack 1, t4 = coilpack 2, t2 = coilpack 3, t1 = coilpack 4. Since we only have 3 coils to fire, this POS would leave us a spare channel to use. So say incase of a failure of 1/6, you could simple rewire 1/6 over to the spare unused channel and continue using your POS until a 2nd channel fails. The 4 outputs of the 1.8T POS are simply 4 grounds that would each be wired directly to the negative terminal of our coils. Because both ends now have factory connectors we could have very clean wiring jobs with the MSD coilpack setup, no more nasty prongs to worry about massive amounts of solder and heat shrink tubing to protect from shorts and the environment. I just discovered this stuff this weekend and have not yet had time to research factory part numbers for the needed connectors for both ends, but I will head over to the dealer tomorrow and get part numbers for the plastic connectors, the wire ends, and the water seals necessary to make this work. I will post that stuff later when it becomes available. 
Now back on how to test the POS, whether it be 1.8T for VR6, the procedure would be the same.


Things Needed

1.5 Volt battery preferably a "D" cell
1/4" female speaker crimp terminal
Digital Multimeter
piece of wire cut into 2 halves, 12" to 24" should do fineelectrical tape

Procedure
1. First thing you do is strip the ends of the speaker wire and tape one end 
of the wire to the battery. Tape one wire to the + end of the battery 
and the other wire to the (-) end of the battery. At the opposite end of the (+) battery wire, crimp on the 1/4" speaker terminal. The opposite end of the (-) battery wire is simply
stripped. The next step is to wrap the (-) battery wire around the common/ground DMM
probe. At this point, battery voltage can be measured simply by touching
the + DMM probe to the speaker terminal. Now set the
DMM to measure resistance on a KOhm scale.
2. Next, we hook up the speaker terminal to one of the input terminals (t2, t3, or t4 on the VR6 POS input connector).
3. At the same time, touch the ground DMM probe to the ground terminal on the input side(t1 on the VR6 POS input side). This ground DMM probe stays on t1 throughout this entire procedure. Only the speaker terminal and + DMM probe change positions to measure continuity for all 3 channels.
4. On the output connector side, touch the + DMM probe to the output terminal directly opposite the terminal to which the speaker terminal is attached(t2 = 1/6 output, t3 = 3/4 output, and t4 = 2/5 output).
5. At this point you should get an ohm reading, take note of the reading, the actual numbers are not all that important, what were looking for mostly is differences between channels/cylinders. If you come across a channel that is drasticly different (like a reading of 0 or infinite), then that is a dead channel. From what I've seen with a 1.5 volt battery resistance might read around 300 on each channel. 
That would be the simplest method for testing the POS. Here is a link with more description and pictures detailing the actual hookup of the DMM with battery for this test. 
http://forums.audiworld.com/a4/msgs/1594531.phtml
I will post more info once I get a chance to test the 1.8t POS and get proper connectors. I happened to have a 1.8T Power Output Stage laying around that my brother pawned off on me as repayment of debt, never thought it would actually come in handy. 


_Modified by euro16v at 6:56 PM 4-6-2008_


----------



## 1fast96gti (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: (euro16v)*

that first pic is what you go off of? if those 4 prongs are left out in the open thats a little dangerous ya think? im getting rid of all the vw ignition wiring. so there will be nothing left open, and you can unplug the entire harness from the engine harness or just unbolt a coil if one goes out... strongly dont recommend soldering the wires to the terminals of the coil!http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif the interfaces are worth every bit of $31.00- ps this is about an ignition coil conversion (vw/ volvo icm -to- gm 3.8L 2 tower coils (3) not testing the factory vw icm. this is a cost effective way to escape the $400 vw VR6 coil pack- napa gm coil $32... get the drift? ill be posting some pics of how to wire the 7 pin volvo icm to the vw harness tomorrow night sometime...


----------



## euro16v (Dec 12, 1999)

*Re: (1fast96gti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1fast96gti* »_that first pic is what you go off of? if those 4 prongs are left out in the open thats a little dangerous ya think?
If you follow this thread since the beginning you would see that most people that have done this conversion have had to deal with the 4 prongs out in the open. That picture I use is the very 1st picture on this thread from page 1. 


_Quote, originally posted by *1fast96gti* »_I'm getting rid of all the vw ignition wiring. so there will be nothing left open, and you can unplug the entire harness from the engine harness or just unbolt a coil if one goes out...
This is the same thing I am trying to accomplish, I'm just using a 1.8T ICM rather than a Volvo ICM, in my opinion the 1.8T would probably be more readily available to people in this thread being as its a factory VW part. 


_Quote, originally posted by *1fast96gti* »_strongly dont recommend soldering the wires to the terminals of the coil!http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif the interfaces are worth every bit of $31.00-
This thread clearly shows that the solder and heat shrink is for attaching the wires to the prongs of the VR6 ICM, not the coils. This thread from page 1 to 33 mentions use of male spade connectors to attach to the coils.



_Quote, originally posted by *1fast96gti* »_ps this is about an ignition coil conversion (vw/ volvo icm -to- gm 3.8L 2 tower coils (3) not testing the factory vw icm. this is a cost effective way to escape the $400 vw VR6 coil pack- napa gm coil $32... get the drift? ill be posting some pics of how to wire the 7 pin volvo icm to the vw harness tomorrow night sometime...
Obviously its about coil conversion. Along with the coil problem is the ICM problem. VR6 cars have the ICM integrated into the factory coilpack, therefore unfortunately we cannot acquire one seperately with ease. And numerous times people in this thread have asked for a way to test the factory ICM for faults and failures. We'll I found one such method and am posting it here for everyones knowledge. 



Other than that I would like to see how the Volvo ICM works once you have it wired in, should be very similar to the 1.8T setup. With the fully encapsulated ICM units is it now possible to move the coils to a different location should one so desire. One thing I forgot to mention that would be of great importance is to make sure you use and adequate heat sync when you change the ICM. The entire frame of the coilpack structure is a heat sync for the VR6 ICM, I would recommend a heat sync about twice the size of the ICM your using and make it a good 1/4" thick. I would also recommend using CPU paste (the same stuff you use when attaching a fan/heat sync to your processor in your computer) to help transfer heat away from the ICM.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (euro16v)*

Wow......
This is an interesting pas couple of posts.
First - Euro16v
Thanks for posting the methodology of the testing. Have you tried this on a bad vs good ICM and seen results? The reason I asked, way back in the first thread I ran a bunch of readings (Ohm on different post combination, continuity's, etc etc) and couldn't really spot any major differences with the bad ICM between posts.
Second - 1fast96gti
How else are we to wire things without soldering the wires to the terminals? What is your basis for it being such a bad idea. What interfaces are you talking about that are worth every bit?
I still haven't heard from you as to how you're sure the volvo ICM will work, like I said, I remember a couple people trying it and it did not work, what do you know that changes that fact, it would help others looking at a replacement ICM to know why you can get the volvo ICM to work where others have not.


----------



## euro16v (Dec 12, 1999)

*Re: (Cubix)*

From what I've seen across numerous 1.8T posts, both Audi and VW(and more so on the Audi side, and also on other cars besides the 1.8T) this methodology of testing will always pinpoint a bad channel in a POS/ICM. This test can be run on any car that uses a transistorized ignition system. The transistorized meaning the POS/ICM. I have not run the test on a bad POS yes, I did test mine, and got the same KOhm reading from all 3 channels, I will test the 1.8T POS I have just for fun too. I'm still a good 3-4 weeks away from being able to test everying in the live as my VR6 swap project is still not ready yet. But I eagerly await the day I can wire everyhing up and put that 1.8T POS to use finally. 
I'm willing to bet the Volvo ICM works fine as well, as long as its wired up correctly according to how Volvo used the triggers and outputs. Any 3 channel or greater POS should actually work as long as the proper pin in and outs can be found and used. VR6 is the only POS so far I have seen that sends (+) throuhg the POS itself, that is probably what is throwing most ppl off.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (euro16v)*

Well I'll be eagerly awaiting to see what happens


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_Well I'll be eagerly awaiting to see what happens

ME TOO!! If this works i am SO DOING it.


----------



## euro16v (Dec 12, 1999)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevwithoutacorrado* »_
ME TOO!! If this works i am SO DOING it.

Well if anyone is local and willing to come to Spring Valley, I am willing to put the 1.8T Power Output Stage to work.


----------



## ATL_VR6 (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: (euro16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *euro16v* »_which closes a transistor inside the POS. Closing this transistor connects 1/6 from the output side to t1 (ground) of the input side. Since the positive of t5 and 15 is always active, you now have a close loop to coil pack for 1/6 and you get spark ignition to those 2 cylinders. Once I realized that is all the POS is doing, not amplifying the signal or anything else I've read in regard to the POS, it was very simple to understand its function. 

Very good testing!
Just a bit of information about a transistor.. It acts (I use that term loosely) like a relay.. So if that is in effect what is going on, and can determine what transistors it is using, you can build your own "POS" for about 5 bucks with stuff you can get from radio shack (assuming its a decent radio shack). Which would be cool, b/c transistors are kind of like amplifiers as well, and knowing some of the VW specific parameters that went into making the POS would be good knowledge as I assume that the GM POS isn't exactly like the VW POS. For those electronic geeks out there, the hfe value of the transistor!
Keep up the good work!
Does anybody have a picture of the ICM with the plastic removed?
-Kyle


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (ATL_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ATL_VR6* »_
Does anybody have a picture of the ICM with the plastic removed?
-Kyle


there's a bit of circuitry there, but nothing identifiable, and its covered in a thick clear gelatin like goop


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (Slayer)*

I luv how this thread has evolved. Well done Cubix for starting it


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sc_rufctr* »_I luv how this thread has evolved. Well done Cubix for starting it









no no no 
I just started up this version of the thread
Props to SilentDub for originally starting the project a few years ago
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## ATL_VR6 (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: (Slayer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Slayer* »_there's a bit of circuitry there, but nothing identifiable, and its covered in a thick clear gelatin like goop


I wouldn't mind putting my hands on a broken one, with at least one good output to a coil. Anybody wanna mail one to me? I'll paypal you 2 bucks for shipping!
-Kyle


----------



## kmg108 (Jan 24, 2003)

*Re: (ATL_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ATL_VR6* »_

I wouldn't mind putting my hands on a broken one, with at least one good output to a coil. Anybody wanna mail one to me? I'll paypal you 2 bucks for shipping!
-Kyle

I believe I may still have a bad one laying around. I only say it's bad because I opened the coilpack the wrong way and it peeled apart the ICM to expose the "goo" that was previously mentioned. I can get you a pic if you're really interested. Then you can decide if you want it shipped.


----------



## ATL_VR6 (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: (kmg108)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kmg108* »_
I believe I may still have a bad one laying around. I only say it's bad because I opened the coilpack the wrong way and it peeled apart the ICM to expose the "goo" that was previously mentioned. I can get you a pic if you're really interested. Then you can decide if you want it shipped.

Picture!








-Kyle


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (ATL_VR6)*

The small black chips say:
TFK95008
U2225B
45B645
I had to use a 10x eyeloop to read that
the 3 square transistors? have a small lead coming off (like the one on the right) that i think went to the 3 pins for the triggers. I dont remember how the other two were situated.. the thing was kinda smashed in a box from shipping, so it was a bit mangled already


----------



## euro16v (Dec 12, 1999)

*Re: (Slayer)*

Interesting, so the VR6 Power Output Stage is built right into the coilpack housing literally. I thought it was atleast enclosed in the plastic shell and glued to the housing. That makes for a very large heat sync, too bad the heat sync is bolted directly to the cylinder head.


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (euro16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *euro16v* »_Interesting, so the VR6 Power Output Stage is built right into the coilpack housing literally. I thought it was atleast enclosed in the plastic shell and glued to the housing. That makes for a very large heat sync, too bad the heat sync is bolted directly to the cylinder head. 

quite posting here until you get that other POS / ICM working


----------



## dasGolf01 (Aug 23, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Well I got everything in the car tonight and wired up and it tried to start but misfired. So in the morning I'll see if I put something in wrong somewhere or a connection isn't good... a bit frustrating. Ah well. Good write up regardless of my ignition wiring skills.


----------



## LISTO14 (Dec 20, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (dasGolf01)*

*Has anyone found a 6cy coil with european contacts so i can use my stock wires?*


----------



## dasGolf01 (Aug 23, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Can anyone tell me the size/thread of the bolts that hold the whole thing to the block?
I'm not having luck with getting mine started and it "looks" like it's all setup correctly. 
But I need to get my car running again so I'm going to put the old stuff back on then try to get a used ICM if I can and work on this outside the car.
Any help a.s.a.p. would be great so I can try to go find new bolts.
Thanks!


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (dasGolf01)*

I *think* they are M8 size? I went to sears hardware and matched mine up so I could get some shorter ones, but that was like a year ago.


_Quote, originally posted by *dasGolf01* »_Can anyone tell me the size/thread of the bolts that hold the whole thing to the block?
I'm not having luck with getting mine started and it "looks" like it's all setup correctly. 
But I need to get my car running again so I'm going to put the old stuff back on then try to get a used ICM if I can and work on this outside the car.
Any help a.s.a.p. would be great so I can try to go find new bolts.
Thanks!


----------



## dasGolf01 (Aug 23, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Slayer)*

Thanks for the tip. I'll swing by Sears this evening and see if I can pick some up.
Cheers.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (dasGolf01)*

You could always just cut the old ones http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## dasGolf01 (Aug 23, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

I did cut the old ones. I want to put my old stuff back together while I try to figure out what I did wrong as I need my car to run.







I have a friend's car for the day but don't want to play rental friend hehehe.
Thanks!


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (dasGolf01)*

oh oh oh oh 
I missed your other post
Oi, good luck with it, I'm going to go on a limb and say if might've been the ICM, i'll have to come back to that later

Euro16v
Yes the ICM is physically part of the bottom plate, a few have mistakenly opened them and destroyed it.
Why did they do it? Because they can
I guess the engine head is just a little bit cooler then the ICM.... or maybe the ICM is what heats the whole engine!


----------



## dasGolf01 (Aug 23, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

No worries at all. I'm hoping that it will at least run when I get it back together in the old style as I need to move the car for... well, more work on it.. hehehe.
If this doesn't work out, I'm not too terribly upset, but it would be nice and a decent upgrade/mod.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (dasGolf01)*

Just to see, try doing the ICM test as described earlier
Which cylinders are misfiring? It would have to be a pair to signify a problem with the ICM


----------



## dasGolf01 (Aug 23, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Honestly, it's hard to tell.
It turns over, starts to fire then backfires and dies.
I was 99% sure I had the coils setup in the right spots, but tried rearranging the wires to see if I had them out of whack, but then go not firing at all.
I'll have to see if I can do the ICM test, but before I put the MSDs on, I had no problems, just wanted to do this conversion as it seemed like a nice idea.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (dasGolf01)*

In that case, you may have mixed some things up with the wiring
might as well check there first


----------



## dasGolf01 (Aug 23, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

That's what I'm hoping.
I'm going to yank it, strip it and redo it tonight, but get the bolts too just in case that doesn't pan out and I have to put the coilpack back on.
Thanks very much for all your help, advice and simple moral support hehehe. Frustrating having the car not run when you think it should.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (dasGolf01)*

Nope, no moral support here
give up
go on
bye








Good luck with it of course
....and you thought that owning a VR is frustrating enough....


----------



## dasGolf01 (Aug 23, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

LOL
No doubts, just had my crack pipe go, so the front end is gonna be torn down, replace all the coolant parts and hoses while I'm in there with a Samco kit.
Had this VR for almost three years.. All kinds of wacky stuff, but at least it's never stranded me... just decided I didn't do good enough work on this part. Ha!


----------



## 1fast96gti (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: (Cubix)*

I still haven't heard from you as to how you're sure the volvo ICM will work, like I said, I remember a couple people trying it and it did not work, what do you know that changes that fact, it would help others looking at a replacement ICM to know why you can get the volvo ICM to work where others have not.
[/QUOTE] sorry the only reason it wouldnt/ couldnt work is that you would have a 5 cyl icm you need the 6cyl icm they look the same from the 98 s90 as you already know...all you have to do is wire it like your doing the coil conversion? and if it dont work then im gonna be very angry cause i already have everything for it(icm, connector, and coils)


----------



## 1fast96gti (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (dasGolf01)*

just a suggestion? go with the mason tech aluminum crak pipe its awesome im running one.. its like $75-6 on ebay or you can buy it on there site. i bought mine on ebay(they have there own store) http://www.mason-tech.com/crakpipesCW1.asp


----------



## dasGolf01 (Aug 23, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Well I think I figured out a few things... looks like when I "weatherproofed" my leads coming out of the coils, I over did it which moved the wires coming around to the spades from the ICM and was giving an intermittent connection due to the congestion of stuff.
Old coilpack is on and it's running fine. Now that I've seen what I did, I am going to run a more flattened wire coming out of the coils so it won't interfere with the ICM connections. 
Anyhow, thanks for the ideas and it was a bad connection after too much movement and trying to put it back in. When I have the front end apart, it will be easier to get back in there and mount it up right. 
And to 1fast96GTI, I got a another one, very similar to the one you mentioned, which is great too, another friend of mine here has that one, it is a great priced one as well. 
Thanks again http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by dasGolf01 at 10:10 PM 4-8-2008_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (1fast96gti)*

No to any type of advertising here 
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
We're not losing this thread again


----------



## 1fast96gti (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

sorry and thats kinda a poopy policy but oh well?
_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_No to any type of advertising here 
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
We're not losing this thread again


----------



## dasGolf01 (Aug 23, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Post edited, names of companies removed.







Sorry mate.


----------



## euro16v (Dec 12, 1999)

Well I'm stuck when it comes to locating part numbers for the 1.8T POS 4 and 5 pin connectors. Was at the dealer looking through ETKA today for 30 minutes with no luck. Does anyone have access to an early 1.8T ('98 through mid '00 should still have the POS), doesn't matter if its a Beetle, Golf/Jetta, Passat, or an A4. I just need the part numbers off the 4 and 5 pin connectors. The # is on the side in very tiny letters/numbers.


----------



## cacapino (Apr 6, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (euro16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *euro16v* »_Well I'm stuck when it comes to locating part numbers for the 1.8T POS 4 and 5 pin connectors. Was at the dealer looking through ETKA today for 30 minutes with no luck. Does anyone have access to an early 1.8T ('98 through mid '00 should still have the POS), doesn't matter if its a Beetle, Golf/Jetta, Passat, or an A4. I just need the part numbers off the 4 and 5 pin connectors. The # is on the side in very tiny letters/numbers.

i've got 3 of em in my tool box, but its about an hour and a half away, next time i'm home i'll look but someone will probably get the number before that for you


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (euro16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *euro16v* »_Well I'm stuck when it comes to locating part numbers for the 1.8T POS 4 and 5 pin connectors. Was at the dealer looking through ETKA today for 30 minutes with no luck. Does anyone have access to an early 1.8T ('98 through mid '00 should still have the POS), doesn't matter if its a Beetle, Golf/Jetta, Passat, or an A4. I just need the part numbers off the 4 and 5 pin connectors. The # is on the side in very tiny letters/numbers.

I think #051503 and 051504 from http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/680 are what you're looking for... $$ though. also have a look through http://www.dubnet.org/imgs/vr6...s.pdf and see if its listed in there
those are AMP junior power timer housings


----------



## jettaglx91 (Jul 27, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Slayer)*

for what its worth i finally got around to installing my setup today(after sitting on my toolbox for months)
and i gotta say, way more noticable then i was expecting.
figured it would help but its awesome, cleared out the slight "hiccup" at idle(car is a vrt obd2) and the car feels much smoother and crisper at part throttle
ill try to get some pics of it install tommorrow


----------



## knottyvr6jetta (Aug 9, 2006)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (jettaglx91)*

i was wondering if those who have installed the plate as opposed to the bracket, had had any premature failure in their coils from being so hot? i like the more oem look to the msd coils than having that bracket make the coils stick out, but dont want to have to replace coils sooner than later


----------



## audisnapr (Jul 31, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (knottyvr6jetta)*

hey all. I haven't contributed much to this thread, but have been following it for some time. Anyway, I finally tackled this project for the track rado in hopes that i might curb the stutter problem we had at LRP last year; if it doesn't... well we at least have a much better coilpack setup








let me know if anyone sees any problems with my setup.
- 16 gauge steel bracket
- Ceramic engine enamel paint
- 14awg wires
- JEGS 3-pack GM coils








































































































_Modified by audisnapr at 8:17 AM 4-13-2008_


_Modified by audisnapr at 8:25 AM 4-13-2008_


----------



## Soren (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (audisnapr)*

Nice, very clean wiring/insulating/weatherproofing http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## kmg108 (Jan 24, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Soren)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Soren* »_Nice, very clean wiring/insulating/weatherproofing http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

x2...very nice work. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (kmg108)*

Wow








I'll be redoing mine this summer during my rebuild...
If that even gets off the ground this year around


----------



## audisnapr (Jul 31, 2004)

thanks guys - I'm glad it turned out to be an easy project. since we didn't have to buy new plug wires (already bought a set at the beginning of '07) and made our own bracket, this turned out to be a very _affordable_ swap for us. with plug wire ends, 3-set of coils from JEGs, and some hardware (we had everything else in house) this turned out to be a sub $150 mod.
judging from the lack of neg. responses, I assume all looks in order? I thought I had read somewhere in this massive thread that ppl were using some sort of non-conductive material between the OE coilpack housing and the new bracket - and/or - a similar setup between the coilpacks and the bracket??
if not and all is in order, we should be good to go. gotta shorten the OE bolts, do the plug wires up and fire away.
we haven't thought about plugs for our setup (100% stock) - any recommendations? read through all the gapping talk, figure we should be in the .040 range, correct?


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: (audisnapr)*

Very nicely done, especially the weatherproofing. You're definitely good to go as is. I haven't messed around with different plugs so I'll let others address that. Even with stock plugs you'll notice better throttle response and driveability.


----------



## SoFarKingFast (Jul 9, 2003)

.040 is huge, but for NA I guess it is plausible.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (SoFarKingFast)*

I recommend installing it with the plugs and gap that were in there before starting the project.
As long as they worked, you're removing one less variable if you need to trouble shoot. Once the system is a go, then play around with it.

What ever happened to that Vovlo ICM project....?


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_
What ever happened to that Volvo ICM project....?

I have a feeling it didnt work as he was so sure it would







it might eventually, but there's something missing and it hasnt been found yet. I don't think he read all my posts about it not working


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Slayer)*

I never was quite sure as too why he was so sure it would work.
Well, lets wait and see.


----------



## blu_mk2 (May 4, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (audisnapr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *audisnapr* »_hey all. I haven't contributed much to this thread, but have been following it for some time. Anyway, I finally tackled this project for the track rado in hopes that i might curb the stutter problem we had at LRP last year; if it doesn't... well we at least have a much better coilpack setup








let me know if anyone sees any problems with my setup.
- 16 gauge steel bracket
- Ceramic engine enamel paint
- 14awg wires
- JEGS 3-pack GM coils

_Modified by audisnapr at 8:25 AM 4-13-2008_

Your work is an inspiration to redo my wiring http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## pubahs (Apr 2, 2002)

Anyone using the MSD straight boots on the 8.5mm wires? Any tips on sliding the boots completely over the wires, I seem to get about 1.25" inches then it just stops.
Thanks!


----------



## 1fast96gti (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: (Slayer)*

i havent done it yet... im hoping monday/night- heres my next brain buster- can you use non vw style wires in the coil conversion? i emailed taylor wires about a gm v6 kit they have to see if they were long enough to fit but i want to know if a VR6 will run w/o the metal shields on the spark plug end of the wire before i purch.? granted it will be hard to remove/ install the wires but im only curious if anyone has tried it...


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (1fast96gti)*

the metal shield has no affect on the operation of the wires
I used the MSD universal wires before going with the fourseason wires


----------



## 1fast96gti (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: (Cubix)*

thanks!!! saves me sweet moola


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (1fast96gti)*

I've cought wind that there is a bolt on set up w/ICM that was shown at blowneuroz
Edit


----------



## clunkyVR6 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Hmmm.. defective parts/water damage class action lawsuit?...
http://www.volkswagen-classaction.com/
Anyone heard anything about this? I know my first 3!!! coilpacks all failed during rain storms. Of course the water was only pointing out the cracks in the pack, but still.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (clunkyVR6)*

You know, I saw that a while ago, maybe i should look into it


----------



## clunkyVR6 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Yeah, I went ahead and submitted my case. I figure it can't hurt. I love my VR6, but man, was I disappointed when VW didn't address this issue. Nothing like replacing defective parts with defective parts!


----------



## SoFarKingFast (Jul 9, 2003)

Class action lawsuits only make lawyers money.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (SoFarKingFast)*

And me.
since now I work in class actions..
and you'd be surprised, sometimes clients actually get major money back


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Cubix, any details on that icm unit that was at blowneuroz?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Slayer)*

AFAIK Stock ICM, bracket, MSD coil pre wired bolt on
I wasn't @ bloweuroz, but I was told about it @ the marsh creek VW BBQ and dog show


----------



## dasGolf01 (Aug 23, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Got the coil setup done, looks like something from the Matrix and.. well MSD I guess.. heheh.. then got a shot of a test fit in the car. Filthy because I'm still waiting for other parts, had just got the new thermostat housing on as well as the coils. Now to clean and button him back up. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (dasGolf01)*

your car knows knug foo

Volvo ICM update?????


----------



## halitzor (Dec 26, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

I need a new coil pack and the JB weld fix has failed for me. My choices are spend nearly 400$ for a new coilpack, or do this DIY.
I do not have any wiring knowledge. The DIY does not show anything about wiring the ICM what so ever.... I'm so frustrated.
Could someone who has actually done this on a 12v vr6 (mkIV) email me ?
[email protected]
I would love to have some help with this project, thanks.


----------



## Tire_Marx (Mar 4, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_your car knows knug foo

Volvo ICM update?????









knug foo? similar to ju istju?


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (halitzor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *halitzor* »_I need a new coil pack and the JB weld fix has failed for me. My choices are spend nearly 400$ for a new coilpack, or do this DIY.
I do not have any wiring knowledge. The DIY does not show anything about wiring the ICM what so ever.... I'm so frustrated.
Could someone who has actually done this on a 12v vr6 (mkIV) email me ?
[email protected]
I would love to have some help with this project, thanks.


The first page tells you pretty much everything you need to know. I recommend buying the Gruven bracket, and insulating the wires where they go into the coils thoroughly with silicone gasket. If you're not comfortable modding the icm as described, you should probably have someone do it for you. It's a very good mod if done correctly, even for a daily driver.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (halitzor)*


_Quote, originally posted by *halitzor* »_The DIY does not show anything about wiring the ICM what so ever.... I'm so frustrated.


----------



## SoFarKingFast (Jul 9, 2003)

Got mine running today, first attempt to start, nothing, second attempt, after putting the wires on the correct posts, no problems. 
It is idling way lean, but seems to drive ok so far. Haven't hit any boost, since I don't have my O2 sensor plugged in (old C2 chip) I have to give the ECU some time to figure out the map, then I can apply some right pedal. Although, I'm going to watching my wide-band like a hawk. 
I'm running a .028 gap right now, NGK BKR7E, up from .022, Magnecor wires, and MSD 8224 coils. The wires are WAAAY too long, but I don't care how it looks right now.


----------



## t101 (Jun 29, 2003)

*Re: (SoFarKingFast)*

Mine is running really well.
Re-gapped to .26
Specs
=====
2.9 intake manifold (real euro piece)
Kinetics Kit with 9 lbs
Forge Diverter Valve 
Here are some pics


















_Modified by t101 at 1:30 PM 4-25-2008_


----------



## dasGolf01 (Aug 23, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Just to make sure I did this right as it's all wrapped up now, but I still have time to reverse and redo. 
I had one lead coming from the same side of each coil that then soldered into one and had the one line running to 15 for power. 
Then I took one line from the same side of each coil and ran it to the corresponding spade, I just got a large female connector, slid it over the split spade bit and did some heavy heat shrink tubing for security and water resistance then taped it for good measure. 
That the correct wiring setup?


----------



## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (t101)*


_Quote, originally posted by *t101* »_Mine is running really well.
Re-gapped to .26
Specs
=====
2.9 intake manifold (real euro piece)
Kinetics Kit with 9 lbs
Forge Diverter Valve 
Here are some pics

















_Modified by t101 at 1:30 PM 4-25-2008_

only 9 psi with a fmic? why so low


----------



## t101 (Jun 29, 2003)

*Re: (dtm337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dtm337* »_
only 9 psi with a fmic? why so low

I have not lowered the compression with a head spacer...so staying with C2's recommendations for ther stage 1 fueling


----------



## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (t101)*


_Quote, originally posted by *t101* »_
I have not lowered the compression with a head spacer...so staying with C2's recommendations for ther stage 1 fueling 

gotcha...stage 2 is nice im running stage 4 and love it !!!!!!!!!


----------



## systemshock869 (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: (dtm337)*

don't know if this is common knowledge now or not, but i discovered that napa sells the ICM separate from the coil pack for 200 bucks.
http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPag...352&Description=Ignition+Control+Module+-+New
it seemed like the general consensus was that you can't get it without buying the whole thing..


----------



## systemshock869 (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: (t101)*

With the gruvenpart bracket, do you have to mount the coils with the terminals facing away from the engine, or can you mount them like this?:

_Quote, originally posted by *t101* »_









can't tell if that is a gruvenparts bracket or not.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (systemshock869)*

Either or
Shouldn't matter


----------



## t101 (Jun 29, 2003)

*Re: (systemshock869)*


_Quote, originally posted by *systemshock869* »_With the gruvenpart bracket, do you have to mount the coils with the terminals facing away from the engine, or can you mount them like this?:
can't tell if that is a gruvenparts bracket or not.

I am running the 4 seasons tuning bracket.
It is a wicked tight fit with the intercooler pipes, but it works.
Car is running strong now for over 2 weeks. No misfires...which is what my problem was before under load.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (t101)*

same bracket
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## knottyvr6jetta (Aug 9, 2006)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

does anyone know if my neuspeed plug wires will work with the msd coils?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (knottyvr6jetta)*

Yes
and
no

If it works with stock
it doesn't work with MSD


----------



## kmg108 (Jan 24, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (knottyvr6jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *knottyvr6jetta* »_does anyone know if my neuspeed plug wires will work with the msd coils?

like Cubix said..it will work with stock coilpack (obviously) but it was never intended to fit a GM coil (like the MSD units).
You'll have to order new msd wire ends from Summit or Jegs that were mentioned earlier in the post. (somewhere on the first 300 pages).








Actually, just check the first post on the first page for the part # you need to modify you Neuspeed plug wires to work with this setup. You only have to change one end (unless you want to buy the wires already made for you).


_Modified by kmg108 at 9:51 PM 5-2-2008_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (kmg108)*

Thanks for clarifying what I said,
I'm totally swamped with broken computers, fires, and getting stuff ready to go camping in a few hours
AHHH


----------



## websaabn (May 23, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

got mine done a few days ago, accel painted black.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

So what is the* SINGLE SPARK/COIL *version of the *MSD 8224 *coil ??








For us 5 bangers that cant use the MSD 8224 
//F


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_So what is the* SINGLE SPARK/COIL *version of the *MSD 8224 *coil ??








For us 5 bangers that cant use the MSD 8224 
//F

That would be an 8224 + electrical tape over one of the terminals.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (itb76)*

i will propably go with this unit http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
MSD 8207


----------



## J-Phi (Nov 12, 2007)

*Re: (systemshock869)*


_Quote, originally posted by *systemshock869* »_don't know if this is common knowledge now or not, but i discovered that napa sells the ICM separate from the coil pack for 200 bucks.
http://www.napaonline.com/MasterPag...352&Description=Ignition+Control+Module+-+New
it seemed like the general consensus was that you can't get it without buying the whole thing..

That would be more interesting if you couldn't buy the whole coilpack at Pep Boys for $199... Wouldn't pay $205 just for the ICM...


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (J-Phi)*

It looks like napa got wind that vr6ers want just the icm, so they pulled the icm off and are selling it for the same price as a full blown coilpack
probably selling just the coil part for the same
easy way to make double the money for a single unit!
YAY CAPITALISM!
...eat your turnip


----------



## Soren (Oct 31, 2000)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_It looks like napa got wind that vr6ers want just the icm, so they pulled the icm off and are selling it for the same price as a full blown coilpack
probably selling just the coil part for the same
easy way to make double the money for a single unit!
YAY CAPITALISM!
...eat your turnip

That's hilarious... Looks to be exactly what they're doing. 
For those that need a good icm, I was wary but went ahead and got a new ebay coil pack for $150 shipped. It's not a beru but I think it's hamburg technic which seems to be identical. After having it on for over a week I feel pretty confident saying they ARE identical, so anyone who was worried about ebay coilpacks, don't be. Buy it, rape the ICM and do this mod!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Some were cheaper than the one I got but this guy had good feedback and said it was german... That made me think it was the hamburg one and not the chinese or korean ones. Not that there's anything wrong with china or korea







I found no brand marks, so who knows where it came from, but it works great! 
edit: removed ebay seller's name - remembered the last thread










_Modified by Soren at 9:02 PM 5-4-2008_


----------



## halitzor (Dec 26, 2007)

*Re: (Soren)*

Lucky you, you have a mkIII. The mkIV coilpacks, even on ebay, are over 300$.


----------



## oopseyesharted (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: (o2bad455)*

I didnt read through this whole thing, but does anyone know of a diy to do a blaster 2 coil in a 95 golf 2 liter?
Someone said there was one, but i cant find it.


----------



## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (oopseyesharted)*


_Quote, originally posted by *oopseyesharted* »_I didnt read through this whole thing, but does anyone know of a diy to do a blaster 2 coil in a 95 golf 2 liter?
Someone said there was one, but i cant find it.









search is your freind...
and this is for vr6 coil pack set ups... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (dtm337)*

Does anyone have a spare GM or MSD coil they could send me? I have a bench setup to test required dwell of the stock coilpack and it could be interesting to know how different the GM and MSD ones would 'want' to be. It could be some good information as to why some people have problems with the ICM dying quickly.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Does anyone have a spare GM or MSD coil they could send me? I have a bench setup to test required dwell of the stock coilpack and it could be interesting to know how different the GM and MSD ones would 'want' to be. It could be some good information as to why some people have problems with the ICM dying quickly.


ICM dying quickly?
for the MSD users without the 0.8ohm ballast resistor mounted ?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

ICM dying quickly?
for the MSD users without the 0.8ohm ballast resistor mounted ?

It's not that they die quickly
They are already faulty due to cracked coil packs causing strains on them
If you have a good ICM, it'll last and be great
If you have a faulty ICM, it'll blow the MSD coil, in my case & start up


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Yes, I was thinking about why the ballast resistor might work better, hence my inquiry.


----------



## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

ill send ya my spare gm style ?for testing


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (dtm337)*

For a while it was recommended to use the ballast resistor
Many bought it from Summit, some took it from a Jegs coil
Found it didn't help


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_For a while it was recommended to use the ballast resistor
Many bought it from Summit, some took it from a Jegs coil
Found it didn't help


But still many have used the setup fo over a year without problems.








Ballast resistor 0.8ohm like MSD recomend


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Once you get it working correctly it'll last for a while
The problem with the ICM, if there is one, will show immediately. Once thats taken care of, you're set for who knows how long


----------



## VRsexmeup (May 8, 2008)

PLEASE SOMEBODY HELP!!
I just hooked up the MSD's following the exact instructions from the first page. I had a ballast resistor which measured 1.8 ohms and in the on position, it turned blood red after about 2 mins.
I took it out and tried the system without the resistor, thinking that not enough current was going to the coils.
POOF!! My coils are fine, no cracks, don't know about the icm, but the car isn't starting (it's turning) and now my display (all indicator lights, fuel, coolant level meter) ISN'T WORKING!!!
Anyone else have this problem?? Please HELP ME!!


----------



## VRsexmeup (May 8, 2008)

I reconnected the resistor to check if there is any current coming to the coils and the resistor was still cold after 10 mins. To add to this, I don't here the fuel pump priming when I turn the key to the ON position. Does this mean that I fried my ECU? I don't think that this is just an ICM problem anymore...
Someone Please help.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (VRsexmeup)*

Sounds like you blew a fuse
or your ign switch, which I had done while playing around with it
shouldn't be too big of a deal to find and replace


----------



## VRsexmeup (May 8, 2008)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Fuses all checked out fine. I'll check the IGN switch. Any thoughts on how this may have happened? Was I grounding out? Should the resistor get hot when in the ON position, or only when triggering the coils? Personally, I don't think the coils got any current at all.
Thanks for your info http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (VRsexmeup)*

Well 1.8ohm is way higher then we were using, we were using 1ohm, MSD says .8ohm.
I'd double check your wiring and make sure you're using the (+) posts and (-) signal posts correct.
A major short like that would and could take out a fuse before hitting the ECU
Take it slow and rework it.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Cubix)*

The ballast resistor is used so the primary resistance of the 'new' coil gets closer to primary resistance of the replacement. The resistor is for current reduction more or less. A coil with less resistance will most likely want less dwell (charge time) and keeping it charged for too long will heat up both the ICM and the coil. Unfortunately the dwell is controlled by the stock ECU so the only knob there is for getting the dwell right is changing the coil primary. 
Doing something simple like a CDI or the 7pin Bosch ICM's that do internal dwell might be a good and easy fix.


----------



## VRsexmeup (May 8, 2008)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Checked voltage across pins 1 & 5 on ICM connector in ON position and came up with 2 mV







Meaning that something's messed up before the ICM. The fact that my cluster (with indicator lights) doesn't work worries me because most of these lights are connected to the ECM. I think the IGN switch still works because my headlight switch works when IGN is ON.
I'm at a total loss for now


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (VRsexmeup)*

it sounds like you're coming up with sketchy reasoning to make the problem more then it might be
does the engine turn over when you turn the key on
have you put the stock coilpack back together and tried it
the physical lights being out doesn't mean the ecu/ecm is bad right away
try a new ign switch for the hell of it, whats 10 bucks and 20 minutes of work worht.


----------



## GruvenParts.com (Jul 31, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Hey guys, we're ready to launch a group buy on our coil brackets.
Normally $74, we'll do $61 on qty 10, $55 on qty 20








Email me if interested - [email protected]


----------



## VRsexmeup (May 8, 2008)

*Re: (Cubix)*

The engine turns over, haven't put the old coilpack back because I don't have compatible wires (I converted the old wires with MSD boots)...
Maybe you're right. I'll try the IGN switch.
Thanks for calming me down man because I'm going crazy and thinking even crazier alternatives to the problem (12 gauge to the engine/head/etc..)


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (VRsexmeup)*

Whats the worst that can happen, you buy a used ECU from the tex or carparts4sale.com 
No big deal. It'll be harder and more stressful if you rush through and make it worse in the mean time.
Good luck, keep us posted with how things go.


----------



## VRsexmeup (May 8, 2008)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Understood, however this was meant to be the cheaper alternative to the bloody original coilpack and i STILL have no idea what went wrong! An ECM will run me at least 2 bills and I still don't know if even THAT would solve my current problem.
Anyhow, I'll let you guys know what happens.
Cheers.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (VRsexmeup)*

This is cheaper in the long run when looking at your TCO (total cost of ownership) over, say 100,000 miles
If you go all out with gruven bracket and wires from fourseasontuning and MSD packs and all that work, it turns out to be as much as the OE pack + work + troubleshooting
but in the end, you don't need to keep replacing the pack, and worrying about it cracking.


----------



## VRsexmeup (May 8, 2008)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Cubix, you are a godsend my friend!







Thanks to you i replaced the IGN switch and VOILA! It's alive!
Just need to rework my short. Does current pass through the ballast resistor as soon as you turn the IGN on or, does it pass through only when trigger signals are sent to the coils? My resistor was burning hot after about 1 min with the IGN in the ON position. Just wondering if current is supposed to go through at that point, or that it happened because of a short?
Thanks again! Long live the tex and its brethren! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (VRsexmeup)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
i'm really glad it worked
the positive is always on as soon as you turn the key. Try it w/o the resistor
What kind of resistor is it. You should use the *.8 ohm OR 1 ohm* automotive ballast resistor, that is if you decide to even use one


----------



## VRsexmeup (May 8, 2008)

*Re: (Cubix)*

I know. Damn NAPA...they gave me a 1.8 when I asked for a 1 ohm and the resistor is unmarked so I didn't know it's value until I tested it.


----------



## Top-NouchVR6 (Jun 6, 2007)

*Re: (VRsexmeup)*

hey guys i didnt read the entire theard so if this has be covered i appoligize, but the problem is I put the jegs coilpack on and the car ran fine for about a mile then it began to backfire so i pulled over and one of the connections fell out so i stuck it back in and it drove fine. then the next moring i had the same problem drove fine the 1st mile then a major miss. but this time thier was no loose wires and i drove it back home with the miss. and left for boot camp that weekend







. but now it wont start competely


----------



## Top-NouchVR6 (Jun 6, 2007)

*Re: (Top-NouchVR6)*

my father claims he tested it and the fuse for the ignition system is not getting any current, but im not home to take a look at it my self, juss courious if any had this problem and can give me an idea what damage i may have done driveing with that miss


----------



## 1fast96gti (Mar 8, 2008)

hi all i hooked system up like on page 1 to get things going right off the bat(except i used the coil interfaces) everything is working great -starts up easier all that jaz -BUT im having a miss fire on cyl. No. 2 and i would assume No. 5(same coil) and it causes the car to stall while coasting to a stop (i can go more into detail) does anyone out there know about cams and this conversion? i dont have a cam file yet but it is on its way.. any info is more than helpful.- i can tell you how to wire with the coil interfaces, its a breeze and its much cleaner!










_Modified by 1fast96gti at 6:44 PM 5-12-2008_


----------



## VRsexmeup (May 8, 2008)

Hey all.
Reconned the MSDs, rechecked the wiring and put a 1ohm resistor in there just in case. Last time I removed the resistor, I blew my IGN. With IGN ON, I'm:
1- ballast resistor becomes piping hot once again and the electrical tape around it starts burning (almost imediately)
2- Engine turns but no start
3- seeing 12 V from pins 1 to 5 on ICM connector (isn't it supposed to be lower?)
4- all other ICM connector pins showing trigger ground signal upon IGN start so ECM must be good (according to Haynes)
Essentially, I'm afraid to remove this resistor this time because of what happened last time. I definitely know that my wiring is good this time around with no grounding issues.
Do these symptoms indicate a faulty ICM? Is the resistor supposed to get that hot right away?
Any help would be awesome.
Cheers!


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (VRsexmeup)*

You blew the ign switch again?
Did you get it working on stock setup?
Are you sure you aren't crossing wires somewhere?
pics of set up and wiring would help
Resistor should not get red hot at all


----------



## VRsexmeup (May 8, 2008)

*Re: (Cubix)*

No. The IGN switch blew when I removed the resistor the first time. Wiring is perfect, I'm 100% sure of that. Haven't tried the stock setup because I need stock cables (I converted the old ones).
One thing worries me though....according to the Haynes, attaching an LED check light to pins 2, 3 and 4 of the ICM connector should light it up upon IGN start. It doesn't light up at all, meaning that the ECM is faulty (according to Haynes). 
Is this the case or should I check the harness wiring? 
The harness attaches to the 42 pin engine harness on the right side of the motor, 
but the pins don't have numbers on them so I don't know which one I should be checking...








According to you, I should be getting a 5 V trigger signal from these pins.
Bloody hell!!








Or, maybe my ECU is providing the proper grounding signal in order to 
activate the coils....hmmm...bypass the ICM??


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (VRsexmeup)*

Thats right I forgot about the oe wires
I blew my ign switch trying the LED test, and didn't get any result doing it.
so I wouldn't go that far yet.
Try w/o resistor maybe?


----------



## lamune (Dec 8, 2003)

*Just finished this mod & MSD DIS questions*

Hey I just (finally) finished this mod. I wanted to share a couple of notes and points based on this really awesome thread.
First, I think this mod is fairly moderate in complexity, but if you have no experience troubleshooting electrical problems (and by owning a VW you should be an expert in no time) and you don't know how an ignition system works, I would advise extreme caution in proceeding. You can kill your ECU and/or ICM pretty easily.
For those who think they can bypass the ICM and run the coils from the ECU and/or use relays...etc...for the love of God don't even attempt it. I can tell you it won't work and if you're lucky you won't blow up your ECU.
So, I'm running MSD 8224 coils on the Gruven bracket, using the MSD 8870 coil adapters which I strongly recommend. Yes, you can jam a spade connector into the coil's socket and RTV the thing in place, but if it pops out there's nothing to prevent it from shorting out against the bracket. If it shorts out kiss your ICM goodbye and the $250 to replace it. So spend the $90- it's good insurance and it makes life a lot easier going forward if you need to troubleshoot or replace a coil. I'm using 8mm MSD-to-VW wires I got from one of the advertisers here on Vortex along with the bracket. Don't remember who at the moment.
I took this mod further than that, though, which I will get into later. First, I think it's wise to use a ballast resistor when doing this mod. The reason being is that the primary resistance of the MSD coil is about half that of the stock coil. This means that the MSD coil requires twice as much current to drive than stock. Now, combine this with the fact that contrary to popular belief the coils are "on" most of the time and fired by switching them "off".. you can see my point. This is probably why some folks have seen their resistors go up in smoke when switching the ignition on but not starting the engine.
Ideally you should put a .7 ohm resistor between +12 and EACH coil to precisely match the resistance component of each coil. I measured the stock coil at 1.4 ohms and the MSD at .7 ohms. Having one resistor is tricky because as I mentioned before the coils are on at the same time and that makes the circuitry a little more dynamic and complex. However, I think any ballast resistor is better than none. And please DO NOT use those Radio Shack ceramic resistors- use a REAL ballast resistor!
Without the resistor the amount of current running through the ICM will be significantly increased, therefore making it hotter, and possibly shorten its life. And given that these things suck to begin with, it doesn't make me confident that the stock ICM can handle the MSD coils for a long-term solution...
Which is why I spent the money and got a MSD DIS 4+ ignition system for my car.
This is a great solution because the stock ICM "fires" the DIS+ box and not the coils directly- should mean that the stock ICM should last a lot longer until the heat-soak from the thing being bolted onto the head kills it regardless of what you do. 
I can tell you all that the DIS+ box makes the car run a LOT better than the stock ICM+MSD coil solution, especially at idle, when cold, and the weather is damp.
Only two problems I've encountered that maybe someone here can help clear up:
1- I have no idea where to mount the DIS+ box. Right now it's zip tied onto the battery ground cable and sitting wedged between the headlight and washer reservoir. I need something a little more permanent than that.
2- I tried bypassing the ICM completely by using the MSD 6304 DIS CPC Signal Converter, which should turn ECU pulses into something the DIS+ can use. No joy- when connected as instructed, the car won't run.
Also I wanted to mention that I used Deutsch 6-pin connectors in this setup. I spliced one set into the cable that goes from the engine harness to the ICM, one between the ICM output and the coils- so if the DIS+ blows up I can reattach the stock ICM and still drive home.
If I can't get the CPC box to work I will probably source the Bosch/Volvo ICM listed in this thread and fire the DIS+ with that. I'd mount that ICM somewhere other than on the engine also to keep the heat away. Maybe on the firewall? Not sure yet.
-Mike
'98 GTI VR6 with "Mullet"-style ignition


----------



## lamune (Dec 8, 2003)

*Re: (VRsexmeup)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRsexmeup* »_Understood, however this was meant to be the cheaper alternative to the bloody original coilpack and i STILL have no idea what went wrong! An ECM will run me at least 2 bills and I still don't know if even THAT would solve my current problem.
Anyhow, I'll let you guys know what happens.
Cheers.

Considering that the $250 coilpacks that are out there seem to last about 3 days beyond their warranty period... the logic of this mod becomes clear. Unless you're selling your car of course.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: Just finished this mod & MSD DIS questions (lamune)*

Lamune, some comments on your post.
Firstly, your warning hits the truth right on the head, this is NOT an easy mod to do, as much as some people like to think it is. We've been getting a great deal of people who 'did not read the thread' and then can't get the system working.
*Read the thread People* 
We've moved away from the radioshack resistors, long ago, I just never changed the photo
Also, it was never in question whether the coils are always on (they are, hence the constant 12v), but thanks for reiterating that fact.
The Dis-4 can be used when bypassing the ICM completely with the proper rpm sensors, though this is outside the scope of this particular thread, and something I have no personal experience with
I'm going to add parts of your post to the front page as a notice to others


----------



## VRsexmeup (May 8, 2008)

Conversion successfull! After many headaches and much toil, the MSDs are up and running. Turns out I did have a slight grounding issue which I practically needed a microscope to detect.
I'd like to thank this wicked thread and those that walked me through this; especially Cubix...cheers bud!
Until the next mod...


----------



## lamune (Dec 8, 2003)

*Re: Just finished this mod & MSD DIS questions (Cubix)*

Thanks Cubix.
Just a note: I talked (again) with MSD and they say that the CPC Signal Converter #6304 is not compatible in this application. Well, obviously- it doesn't work. 
I also think that the Tach converters are for newer systems where there is some feedback to the ECU. I've gone back through the thread and I'm not clear as to why that works for some people and not others.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: Just finished this mod & MSD DIS questions (lamune)*

No problems

So today I was driving home in traffic, and all of a sudden my cel is going off and my car runs like poo and sounds like a monster go kart.
Long story short since I'm totally swamped, my spade connector totally corroded through, and the vibrations of almost stalling in bumper to bumper traffic, cuz I was tired and lazy, resulted in me drivin home with 4 cylinders.
Easy 5 min fix, but you guys might want to coat the whole lead with hot glue, or some other sealant
toodles!


----------



## 1fast96gti (Mar 8, 2008)

just to let everyone know that if you experience a "shutter" or miss fire or poor running or "rev and die" check your crank position sensor and connector as my 96 gti VR was doing that and my cps was not getting a full all time connection just to let everyone know cause i sat at the side of the road for 4 hours tryin to figure out why it wouldnt start. it wasnt fun in the least!


----------



## RjVr6 (Nov 9, 2007)

*Re: (1fast96gti)*

i just wanted to ask where could i get one of those resistors ? for the wiring


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Just finished this mod & MSD DIS questions (Cubix)*

Baaah i just finished my single coil pack conversion.
Guess what .... it doesent start because i have 2 x 12v source.
Have no clue what to do now.

1 is in the ICM just like VR6 12v on the brown connector of the ICM.
Its not 12 out of the ICM








1 12v is bolted on to the coil pack








Here is the coil pack + 12v pin bolt








here is ICM 6pin connector 5 cyl + 12v
















Here are the build stages to mount 5 single coil´s in an enginebay that is over filled with other crap lika a 620Hp 2.3L VR












































Here are all 5 coils visable








Gonna call Daniel.T and have him sort this mess out












_Modified by [email protected] at 5:13 AM 5-17-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Just finished this mod & MSD DIS questions ([email protected])*

Ok , its alive
But i used the coil pack pinbolt 12v as 12v source for the coils.
The 6th pin from ICM is not connected .
Hmmmm wonder if this will work
Or atleast for how long it will work before something fail


----------



## RjVr6 (Nov 9, 2007)

*Re: (RjVr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RjVr6* »_i just wanted to ask where could i get one of those resistors ? for the wiring 


never mind i was talking about the wrong piece


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: Just finished this mod & MSD DIS questions ([email protected])*

WOW... Looks like so much work to get that setup working...
I like the use of the single coils but I am concerned about the wiring.
Well done for having a go. Cheers to you


----------



## RjVr6 (Nov 9, 2007)

*Re: (RjVr6)*










i was just wondering what this is called and where i could get one for my MSD project ?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (RjVr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *RjVr6* »_









i was just wondering what this is called and where i could get one for my MSD project ?

Just a 6 pin harness
Auto stores should have it


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Cubix)*

whoa holy crap @ foffa
that project looks crazy, 
I'm going to have to look at it more when I get more then 1 hour of sleep


----------



## SoFarKingFast (Jul 9, 2003)

Looks good Foffa


_Modified by SoFarKingFast at 3:56 PM 5-18-2008_


----------



## systemshock869 (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: (SoFarKingFast)*

I read through this post, among others, and wired it up. Worked like a charm as soon as I plugged it all in.
A couple of questions..
1. In the DIY on page 1, he says he used 12ga wire. Those spade connectors that plug into the bottom of the coil are definitely not 12ga. I had to grind my 12ga connectors down, which caused them to come apart since they are just metal folded over (ground off the folded sides). Can 12ga wire work with these red connectors (18ga, if i'm not mistaken)?
2. The part was recently added about putting a .7amp resistor on EACH coil. I used a single variable ballast resistor that's .7 cold and 1.5 warm. Should I change this? I'm planning on taking it off to silicone the connections and such, now that I know it works (one wiggled out the other day.. that sucked), and i want to make sure it's done right this time.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_whoa holy crap @ foffa
that project looks crazy, 
I'm going to have to look at it more when I get more then 1 hour of sleep

Hi , im getting a bit frustrated .
To make a long story short.
We have just recive E85 104 octane.
I have ran the car on E75 with more ignition amplifier mixed in from factory .
But now with the new E85 blend on the market the car started to missfire at 4500rpm.
Did a bunch of tests last night
1:The MSD didnt cure it . with or without 0.8ohm ballast resistor
2:I regapped the Bosch FS F4´s 0,65mm to 0,85 didnt cure it 
Added OEM 1.8T plugs didnt cure it 
3:Now i replaced the ICM (got 3 VR5´s so i can mix and match parts







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif )
*DIDNT WORK*
4:If it doesent work then im back to tried n true BOSCH FS F3
*DIDNT WORK* ...much better then 1.8T plugs but moved missfire ~1000rpm
5:back to spare OEM coil pack+F3´s+new ICM
BTW had some funny colour on 3 of 5 plug wire connector and 3/5 coil pack connector plugs .











_Modified by [email protected] at 4:52 AM 5-18-2008_


----------



## RjVr6 (Nov 9, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_
Just a 6 pin harness
Auto stores should have it

ok thanks


----------



## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*

foffa what maf are you using to get 600 + cuz the oem one will not support more than 500 ?


----------



## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (dtm337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dtm337* »_foffa what maf are you using to get 600 + cuz the oem one will not support more than 500 ?

Audi N/A


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Hi guys.
First of all car have been running E85 with 620Hp for ~4moths.
Its this summer blend thats the problem and not MAF etc.
I changed all components incl maf for my spare ones and it was the MSD that was making this new problem even larger.

Im back to OEM coils and spark plugs .
Still some missfire on this new blend E85 .
So i lowerd fuel pressure from 4bar to 3.5 bar and added 5litre of gas 99 octane to 21litre of E85 and missfire is ~90% gone http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif









But i need to add another 1-3% of v-power to make it flawless and then my 104 octane E85 has fellen down to ~101 or similar









*
Im gonna call MSD tomorrow and see whats up with my setup.
MSD coil gave less juice then OEM.
BUT might be due to that mystery wire that the VR5 MK4 have from the ICM*


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (dtm337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dtm337* »_foffa what maf are you using to get 600 + cuz the oem one will not support more than 500 ?

100mm housing + RS4 N/A maf = 800hp+


----------



## DanielT (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: ([email protected])*









Difference between the OEM setup and the MSD setup in foffas car.
Is the secondary MSD coil winding internally connected to Negative?
And does the ICM need the connection to the secondary coil to function correctly? (like in the oem setup)
X stand for ignition signal 1-5. There are 5 coils setup like this and in the oem setup all 5 have their secondary coil winding connected together to pin 1 on the ICM. As can be seen on the schematics further up on the page. Might be a bit confusing that I've drawn two pin1 and two pin x (ign 1-5) on the ICM but they are inputs and outputs on top and bottom of ICM.


_Modified by DanielT at 1:43 AM 5-19-2008_


----------



## dasGolf01 (Aug 23, 2004)

*Re: (Cubix)*

So here's the finished product.. all happy now, purrs like a kitten on mild steroids. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (systemshock869)*


_Quote, originally posted by *systemshock869* »_I read through this post, among others, and wired it up. Worked like a charm as soon as I plugged it all in.
A couple of questions..
1. In the DIY on page 1, he says he used 12ga wire. Those spade connectors that plug into the bottom of the coil are definitely not 12ga. I had to grind my 12ga connectors down, which caused them to come apart since they are just metal folded over (ground off the folded sides). Can 12ga wire work with these red connectors (18ga, if i'm not mistaken)?
2. The part was recently added about putting a .7amp resistor on EACH coil. I used a single variable ballast resistor that's .7 cold and 1.5 warm. Should I change this? I'm planning on taking it off to silicone the connections and such, now that I know it works (one wiggled out the other day.. that sucked), and i want to make sure it's done right this time.

1. Yea those spades are smaller, still works, don't ask why I used it, it's what I had lying around, haha
2. Resistor should be fine, many of us are no longer using one


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (DanielT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DanielT* »_
Is the secondary MSD coil winding internally connected to Negative?
And does the ICM need the connection to the secondary coil to function correctly? (like in the oem setup)

Yes, all two wire coils have to be like that to function. The Mk3 and Mk4 12v coilpacks only have 5 connections, +12, gnd and three triggers. This second connection is not present on these coilpacks. I can't think of any good reason to do it this way, perhaps to separate the current from the secondary and primary to differently rated components inside the ICM (cost).


----------



## websaabn (May 23, 2003)

I am having a slight mis under boost and normal driving after the car is warmed up, it has accel coilpacks, with stock wires do you think that the bosch wires might cause it to mis? plugs gapped at .022 I am blanking at the moment on what plugs they are, but they are the same ones i had before i did the coilpacks.
the car is a 1990 cabriolet with ...
1995 passat vr6
-262 cams
-accel coilpacks
-vortech v2 with 2.87 pully
-c2 36lb s/w
-snow performance w/m
-ported exhaust manifold
-dual 2 inch downpipe
- full 3 inch exhaust
the car does not mis when it is at idle, and NO fault codes


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

Did a little test with ignition on .
The mystery wire on VR5 ICM black/purple pin1 is ground.

If its ICM groun then i might have soleved the problem.
If its coil ground or something else then i have no clue what to do


----------



## websaabn (May 23, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*

I changed from bkr7e to a bkr5e and the car is happy http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif no more missin under boost


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: ([email protected])*

See if you get continuity between T6/1 and the coilpack ground wire (not marked on the diagram). If not, then there's something in there switching it most likely.


----------



## DaBeeterEater (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: Just finished this mod & MSD DIS questions ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
here is ICM 6pin connector 5 cyl + 12v









_Modified by [email protected] at 5:13 AM 5-17-2008_

the T6a/1 looks like 30 power to the ICM and the coilpack.
maybe you have to have a hot wire to the coils plus 
each power from the ICM to the coils
what is D52 and where does the black purple wire come from


----------



## 1fast96gti (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: (dasGolf01)*

here is my setup it works awesome with cams totally reliable i went through rush hour stop and go and it never once hinted that it was missing. anyway time to drool!!!! (605 miles on whole setup) sorry for size....


































_Modified by 1fast96gti at 6:29 PM 5-28-2008_


----------



## vr6 nitrous (sweden) (Dec 18, 2002)

*Re: (1fast96gti)*


----------



## vaporado (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: (vr6 nitrous (sweden))*

what are people using for a non-conductive adhesive for the MSD coils? I just had a bad experience with a coil going because I used the liquid tape, I guess it broke down because of heat (since I went turbo the engine bay gets super hot) and one of the spade clips came loose and killed the coil and the wire. So I am revising my setup a bit and wanted to see what people used for an adhesive. I saw glue gun some where what kind of glue stick?
TIA


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: (vaporado)*

Adhesive for the coils or insulation for the wires & terminals? The terminals need insulated because they're so close to the bolts & bracket. I used Permatex Right Stuff to insulate the wires from the bracket and it's holding up OK for now (a couple months, 2500 miles).


----------



## vaporado (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: (itb76)*

^Thanks, I was referring to the wires to the coilpack terminals. Isnt permatex real stuff a gasket maker? Anyone else?


----------



## HOTSKILLET98 (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_As most of you know, I've taken this project to heart, buying 7 (







) MSD coils and burning out 3 because of that damn icm, so yea, I'm crazy









Bump on this. My 1 & 6 plugs are fouling. If the ICM is bad, will it only blow the coil set of coils? 
I installed the MSD 8224's with slight improvement but plugs 1 & 6 are fouling. I'm running a VR6T with DTA standalone but still use the OE ICM. I even tried using the DTA output instead of the OE ICM but have no change. Is there a way to troubleshoot coil for 1 & 6? Can anone help? I've been watching this topic for the lat 5 months but really don't can't comb through the 37 pages. Any help would greatly be appreciated!


----------



## 1fast96gti (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: (vaporado)*

a suggestion? the coil interfaces? they work great and you dont have to use any type of insulation and is well worth it in the long run.... you just have to get 1 1/2" or 2" long bolts to bolt them down


_Modified by 1fast96gti at 6:20 PM 5-27-2008_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (HOTSKILLET98)*

I would check to make sure the DTA is still triggering, though all the VR6 installs I've seen on DTA drive the stock coil section and don't use the amp at all.


----------



## HOTSKILLET98 (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_I would check to make sure the DTA is still triggering, though all the VR6 installs I've seen on DTA drive the stock coil section and don't use the amp at all.

I didn't install the DTA so I'm not up to par on how to do that. I am asumming the DTA is telling the OE ICM which coil pack to fire right? If DTA wasn't triggering, wouldn't all coilpacks be effected?


----------



## vwnut18t (Jun 5, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (HOTSKILLET98)*

OK taking this back a bit. I have read the entire thread, and have followed it since the other ones. 
It was mentioned back in the thread about not grounding out the coils. I am reading into this like I am to make sure the coils are not supposed to ground to the head. Is this correct? The coils have a specific spot to ground to(one of the mounting points). I am working on the mod and just want to get this clear. I have a few different materials I can make the bracket out of and this will determine which material I use.
Thanks http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (vwnut18t)*

The coil should only be grounded through the leads from the ICM, anything else would cause continuous coil discharge, burning out the coil and quite possibly the ICM as well.
I've moved to using zip ties in place of the bolts because they won't come loose, corrode or conduct any electricty.
Boy oh boy does it look like a home job now!


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (HOTSKILLET98)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HOTSKILLET98* »_
I didn't install the DTA so I'm not up to par on how to do that. I am asumming the DTA is telling the OE ICM which coil pack to fire right? If DTA wasn't triggering, wouldn't all coilpacks be effected?

Yes, but there are two ways to do it, one will use the ICM and one won't. All the DTA installs here don't use the ICM. In either case you can have just one section fail and have the others good, or any combination of those. There are three distinct outputs on the DTA for spark, using the amp or not.
You can ground the coil cases, it shouldn't cause any problems, just don't ground the trigger wire.


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_You can ground the coil cases, it shouldn't cause any problems, just don't ground the trigger wire. 

I agree, the coil bodies are plastic, therefore insulating. Insulate the leads as there's not nearly enough room down there...

_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_...I've moved to using zip ties in place of the bolts because they won't come loose, corrode or conduct any electricty.
Boy oh boy does it look like a home job now! 









I did the same, on one side of the coils, mainly for clearance. One bolt and one zip tie on each coil. Actually doesn't look that bad.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (itb76)*

I wrote TYPE R all over it, now I'm getting 29 extra hp at the wheel!


----------



## kmg108 (Jan 24, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

no vw is complete without a zip tie somewhere. I usually keep a few in my pocket.


----------



## vwnut18t (Jun 5, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
Yes, but there are two ways to do it, one will use the ICM and one won't. All the DTA installs here don't use the ICM. In either case you can have just one section fail and have the others good, or any combination of those. There are three distinct outputs on the DTA for spark, using the amp or not.
You can ground the coil cases, it shouldn't cause any problems, just don't ground the trigger wire. 


The reason I ask is because one mounting hole is actually metal with what looks like a metal lead molded into the coil. I will use one bolt and maybe make some delron threaded rods for the other and secure it that way. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Thanks for the responses


----------



## IN-FLT (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (itb76)*


_Quote, originally posted by *itb76* »_
One bolt and one zip tie on each coil. Actually doesn't look that bad.









I think I am heading that route







I think I am losing another coil... random missing at idle... ok at cruise... missing for sure under boost.
Think I am going to get this to try and diagnose which one is going bad before it actually dies 
Waekon 76760


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (IN-FLT)*

Just so you know
Bolt vs zip tie doesn't really change anything except not worrying about the nuts coming off or corroding
It won't make the coils last longer, or change grounding points (on a properly configured set up)


----------



## IN-FLT (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

oh i know that.. i just want it to be easier to change them


----------



## veearesixxer (Jan 15, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (vwnut18t)*

i to have been following it and just got my coils in the mail yesterday, the wireing looks like a sinch, but besides that dont grount the coils other then thru the lead right? and what about a resistor are there more people doin that or not?


----------



## stevegotanewone (Sep 19, 2006)

Stupid question maybe, but it's important. My friend and i got the setup on his car tonight, running and all. a few kinks need to be worked out, relocating things and smooting everything out. My question is this- On the MSD 8224 coil packs, there is a silver pin where one of the mounting bolts goes. Our bracket is made out of steel. Metal bolts were used. If the silver sleeve is a ground, then the coils were definitely grounded to the bracket and engine. everything ran okay- he didn't drive it anywhere because the spade connectors aren't final- didn't want it jumping around on him. Should we use a rubber insulator between the coils and the bracket and some nylon bolts? several peopleshowed insulation in their buildup pictures, but some didn't, with a plain painted bracket and normal bolts.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (stevegotanewone)*

I don't remember what the results of the continuity tests were on that metal *sleeve*.
I think you should be ok with the bolts, but it wouldn't hurt insulating it


_Modified by Cubix at 9:18 AM 6-5-2008_


----------



## audisnapr (Jul 31, 2004)

I asked the same question a while back. the answer was: no, there is no need for the insulation and between the bracket and the coils and using metal nuts/bolts were fine. Many are doing it this way, and like you I still fear it has some evil concequences. I guess time will tell.
BTW, my JEGS equivalent coils also have the metal sleeve in the mounting hole. But there is no way to verify that the sleeve is a ground point. It could just be that using plastic in the mounting hole was not a good design choice by the manufacturer.


----------



## audisnapr (Jul 31, 2004)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_I don't remember what the results of the continuity tests were on that metal bracket.
I think you should be ok with the bolts, but it wouldn't hurt insulating it

haha, beat me to it. but it was you who said there was no need for the insulation when I asked


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (audisnapr)*

I said what now to who?
And there is a way to check. Take your trusty DMM and start playing with the metal sleeve and check continuity to the wire connections, spade connector connections, etc.
I don't think the sleeve cause problems. But then again... It's early
And to fix my early post, I meant sleeve not bracket









..On another note, one of my open water diving students was giving me slack and saying he could smoke me. (he's in highschool), So I ask him what he drives. You know what he says... "Nothing right now..."
Needless to say, his endurance test was longer then everyone elses


----------



## stevegotanewone (Sep 19, 2006)

Thanks, we're gonna button up the system today and i'm gonna test the resistance to the sleeve. I honestly just think that it's a reinforced mounting point. My buddy mr fluke will tell me- he knows everything. Pics to follow


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (stevegotanewone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *stevegotanewone* »_Thanks, we're gonna button up the system today and i'm gonna test the *continuity* to the sleeve. I honestly just think that it's a reinforced mounting point. My buddy mr fluke will tell me- he knows everything. Pics to follow 

See boldface
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I <3 Mr. Fluke, he tells me all about my fiber runs and cat5 and makes me dinner sometimes...


----------



## stevegotanewone (Sep 19, 2006)

Got everything up and running today on my friend's car...
Bracket- used 14 gauge steel painted textured black (super euro= bonus points)
























10 gauge wire to hook it all up, with radioshack resistor (for now)








Put in the car with stock wires- plug ends were bought from napa and put on (really easy to do and 1/4 of the cost of the MSD wires)








The car idles awesome, pulls hard, and sounds more "tuned". He was getting 20 mpg ripping on it, but time will tell. RPMS drop right to where they should be as soon as the clutch is pushed in-no bouncing whatsoever. Plugs weren't touched gap- wise. The metal sleeve on the MSD coil packs isn't a ground- from what i've found, it is just a reinforced mount. 


_Modified by stevegotanewone at 12:02 PM 6-5-2008_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (stevegotanewone)*

I really need to change the photos on the front page
That resistor won't last. Turns out the Radioshack resistors are no good, it'll work for now, but 100% replace it with a ballast resistor (you can pick one up from Summit or any auto parts store)
Looks good


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Get one of these








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Front paged quick fixed


----------



## icer (Aug 5, 2005)

sorry for not reading but this thread is way to long for me lol
HOW MUCH would something like this cost for my 12v vr6 turbo???


----------



## pubahs (Apr 2, 2002)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_Get one of these
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Front paged quick fixed

On the front page it recommends a 0.7, Id imagine the 0.8 shown would suffice? What are the size of these? And only 1 or one for each coil


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (pubahs)*

.7~1.1 would do, only one needed on the pos side
you really dont even NEED one
I don't have one...


----------



## justanothermk2vr (May 20, 2006)

any one running the msd coilpack interfaces what do they do exactly??


----------



## 1fast96gti (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: (justanothermk2vr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *justanothermk2vr* »_any one running the msd coilpack interfaces what do they do exactly??
 refer to page 37 for pics of my setup... it makes wiring the setup much easier and all you do is use the white wires.


----------



## zcxerxes (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: (1fast96gti)*

i know this is the vr6 coilpack alternative thread but...having done this with my vrt it got me thinking is there any reason i couldn't do this on my mk4 2.0l as well?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (zcxerxes)*

I would assume you could throw a single type msd coil in there to replace the single 2.0 coil, not sure


----------



## SoFarKingFast (Jul 9, 2003)

Grounded out the power on my MSD coil setup, and fried my ECU board. Be careful!


----------



## vwnut18t (Jun 5, 2004)

*Re: (zcxerxes)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zcxerxes* »_i know this is the vr6 coilpack alternative thread but...having done this with my vrt it got me thinking is there any reason i couldn't do this on my mk4 2.0l as well? 

The mk4 2.0 is a bit different. I have seen it done though. Somebody in the 2.0 thread I believe has done it. You need to track down a 4 post msd IIRC. I have done the msd on the ABA coil but not the AEG.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (SoFarKingFast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SoFarKingFast* »_Grounded out the power on my MSD coil setup, and fried my ECU board. Be careful!

How did you manage that...??


----------



## SoFarKingFast (Jul 9, 2003)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Don't know, but I'm shopping for a new one. I put my friend's in, and it worked fine. 
Maybe it was something else...but still, be careful of the little prongs if you bend them downward.


----------



## SoFarKingFast (Jul 9, 2003)

Here's my MSD's with FourSeason bracket and Magnecor wires. They cut them a little long, but they work great.
Plugs are NGK BKR7E at .025'.








Thanks for the info, and Cubix for checking up on my problems.








Ryan


----------



## RjVr6 (Nov 9, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

where could i find one of these new resistors ?? what store would i be able to find it at. like a radioshack ??


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (RjVr6)*

summitracing.com or auto shop
ballast resistor


----------



## RjVr6 (Nov 9, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

ok thanks


----------



## 8project4 (Jul 23, 2006)

has anyone messed with 6 individual coils?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (8project4)*

Look at the photos near the bottom of the first page


----------



## billibum (Jun 19, 2008)

Thanks for the information! Good luck!!


----------



## vaporado (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: (billibum)*

Any of you guys running a DIS4?


----------



## farfromugen (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Here is my setup, have yet to drive with it, but it fired right up http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


















_Modified by farfromugen at 7:43 PM 6-20-2008_


----------



## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (farfromugen)*

so after messing around with both setups a bit ,, i think that the gm style pack is a way better option to go with its way cleaner easy to wire with less mess and way less chance of shorting wires / bad grounds or grounding ect.....and it kinda looks stock ...just my 2 cents


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (dtm337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dtm337* »_so after messing around with both setups a bit ,, i think that the gm style pack is a way better option to go with its way cleaner easy to wire with less mess and way less chance of shorting wires / bad grounds or grounding ect.....and it kinda looks stock ...just my 2 cents

I don't see any difference in the wiring, other than getting to use slightly larger connectors. You seem to have a good point about the grounding issues, though. I guess the GNX style coil pack must be better insulated. Only drawback would be having to replace the whole unit rather than one of three. For that semi-stock look, I do agree (although one could also use the black Jegs coils). 


_Modified by o2bad455 at 3:01 AM 6-28-2008_


----------



## farfromugen (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (dtm337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dtm337* »_....and it kinda looks stock ...just my 2 cents]

and you are worried about having a stock looking engine bay?







I'd say that ended with the turbo, SRI, and painted valve cover








(BTW I'm just giving you a hard time, bay looks real nice)


----------



## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (farfromugen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *farfromugen* »_
and you are worried about having a stock looking engine bay?







I'd say that ended with the turbo, SRI, and painted valve cover








(BTW I'm just giving you a hard time, bay looks real nice)

hahah ya i kinda went the other way with that but i meant it seems to flow in a more stock like way...


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (dtm337)*

I love how your engines look
I know I've dropped off the face of the world, tons of school, work and diving, it impedes on my VW time








Looking at getting a new dub though!
Mines...kinda... rusty
wait, how long have I been saying that for??







itll never die!


----------



## MKII16v (Oct 23, 1999)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Been running around for a couple weeks now at 11 psi with no issues. Not running a resistor and running BRK 7's gapped at .035. Great mod for $50!


----------



## vr6freak (Apr 4, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (MKII16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MKII16v* »_Been running around for a couple weeks now at 11 psi with no issues. Not running a resistor and running BRK 7's gapped at .035. Great mod for $50!









bay is lookin good mang http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## nixxxxxxxz (Mar 6, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (vr6freak)*

How do you know if you fried your ecu?


----------



## farfromugen (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (nixxxxxxxz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nixxxxxxxz* »_How do you know if you fried your ecu?

if you don't have a signal from any of the 3 wires @ the harness and your wire to the ecu isn't open. I'm sure there is a pin location directly off the ecu if you want to test there, would need to look it up in a Bently


----------



## nixxxxxxxz (Mar 6, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (farfromugen)*

My starter clicks and the cluster lights up when I try to crank it. Would my cluster light up with a bad ecu? It seems like its not getting enough juice.


----------



## vwnut18t (Jun 5, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (nixxxxxxxz)*

I finally got around to doing my coil pack. I did my buddies a couple weeks ago and it went pretty smooth. I used the Ebay bracket(pretty nice) and bought the coils from autozone. I get military discount so I paid about $43 a piece. I bought the 3311's from my local hot rod shop for about $7 a pair(3 pairs needed) 
My coil pac consisted of using Aircraft structural sheet metal bent in a 90 and putting a 1/4" piece of carbon kevlar to mount the coils too(I eliminated any chance of a grounding issue







) I found some different HEI MSD wire ends that were cheeper. The number is 8849. It is a 9 pack of boot ends and was $12.40. I just modified factory vr plug wires to keep the cost down.
Thanks for the pioneers of this and all R&D that everybody has done on here. This is one of my favorite threads to watch.
Here is my mod...


----------



## farfromugen (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (vwnut18t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwnut18t* »_ The number is 8849. It is a 9 pack of boot ends and was $12.40. I just modified factory vr plug wires to keep the cost down.


Good point, I found a seller on ebay that had them for that and shipped them very quickly. Also note if you choose to use the resistor, Autozone sells them as a special order ballast resistor #8214, they do not list them as a MSD product, but it is in fact an MSD #8214 .08 ballast resistor, was like $6.99 IIRC, cheapest I found them for http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (nixxxxxxxz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nixxxxxxxz* »_My starter clicks and the cluster lights up when I try to crank it. Would my cluster light up with a bad ecu? It seems like its not getting enough juice. 

Either you battery is dead or you blew a fuse or you blew the ign switch, NOT ECU


----------



## nixxxxxxxz (Mar 6, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

The battery is fine, I had it tested as well as starter tested. What fuses should I check, all the ones on the drivers side panel were fine, as well as the 3 green fuses on top of the battery. Could it be I fried the ICM on my current coil? How would I know if the ign switch is bad? The starter clicks when I turn the key all the way.


----------



## farfromugen (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (nixxxxxxxz)*

IT is a starting issue, not ignition related. Even with the ICM disconnected the starter will still turn the engine over. Did you check the solenoid on the starter? How did you have the starter tested (did a shop do it)? Pull the wiring diagrams and start from there, chances are if it is clicking that it is a bad starter or solenoid, but you need to check all the wiring, fuses, and relays first. It could be a problem with the clutch kill switch (neutral safety if auto) or in some cases the ignition switch or even the factory alarm.


_Modified by farfromugen at 10:49 PM 7-5-2008_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (farfromugen)*

If batt is good and starter is good and you turn the key all the way and it sounds like a machine gun clicking you're looking at the ign swtich
10 bucks and 30 minutes and you'll be back up and running. Its easy to blow it when you're doing this mod, I blew mine and it was like D'OH!
Edit:
If it were the clutch safety switch there would be no clicking because that switch prevents the starter from engaging at all


_Modified by Cubix at 7:49 AM 7-6-2008_


----------



## farfromugen (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_
Edit:
If it were the clutch safety switch there would be no clicking because that switch prevents the starter from engaging at all

_Modified by Cubix at 7:49 AM 7-6-2008_

Typically, yes, but I have seen it be the cause of a no start with clicking issue before.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (farfromugen)*

VW=weird like that

Not starting? Check you back left speaker and turn it 22.5*, and switch the headrests in the car to the opposing sides. don't ask me why, just do it!...
(joke)


----------



## farfromugen (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_VW=weird like that

Not starting? Check you back left speaker and turn it 22.5*, and switch the headrests in the car to the opposing sides. don't ask me why, just do it!...
(joke)

haha! Very true! VW=all kinds of electrical gremlins








Good luck with the car! If you have a DVOM, check for continuity on the back of the ignition switch, or go ahead and replace it, it will fail you eventually anyhow. It would be a good idea to follow and test all the wires/components in the starting circuit, and I would not completely rule out the solenoid, especially if the starter itself is clicking (solenoid sits on top of it), just a good idea to perform a few basic tests before replacing too much stuff.


----------



## nixxxxxxxz (Mar 6, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (farfromugen)*

Where do I find an ign switch for $10?


----------



## nixxxxxxxz (Mar 6, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (nixxxxxxxz)*

I tested the plug coming off the starter, put the positive on the terminal, grounded the other. Had someone crank the starter as I tested, the multimeter read 0. Bad ign switch?


----------



## sportydub (Feb 11, 2005)

ok....i've got a mkiv vr and wanted to do this conversion with the msd coils....i have read through everypage and am still up in the air about whether or not to put in a resistor?...does it hurt to put one in?


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (sportydub)*

Cubix is the man to ask but....
The resistor is more an insurance thing. Lots of people are running this conversion without it with no problems but some have had coils burn up so the resistor reduces current to the coils to prevent this.
Good luck with the conversion. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*

As far as I know, the resistor is pretty much snake oil
I've used one, and not used one, no difference
People have used them, and still blown coils, so no help there
People have NOT used them and ran fine
So really, it's up to you, if you want some extra security (which is pretty unsubstantiated), throw it in, otherwise, I doubt it'll hurt w/o one.
I truly think, if the ICM is bad and gonna blow a coil, it's just gonna happen, no way to prevent it.
BTW, what ever happened to the guy who was 'GOING TO DO' the volvo ICM conversion, as well as the other guy who promised the method of testing the ICM???????


----------



## farfromugen (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (Cubix)*

I think you had mentioned early on that the stock coils have a higher resistance than the MSDs. I used the resistor for this reason only, just to keep the current limited to stock spec. I've seen the 12v+ feed to the ICM burn up on cars before, didn't want to risk it.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (farfromugen)*

Yea thats definitely a good point and a good arguement to use them.
At only a couple dollars, theres really no reason not to just throw one in to be safe. However, I've been w/o one for 30k+ miles now and so have a good number of other people and have seen no negative consequences.


----------



## 1fast96gti (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: (Cubix)*

im going on 1,500 miles w/o a resistor and have yet to have a serious problem. knock on wood http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## nixxxxxxxz (Mar 6, 2007)

*Re: (1fast96gti)*

Thank you 12v gods for the good advice on my electricak problem being the ign switch, I couldn't og daignosed my problem with out you guys.


----------



## jettavr6dubbin (Mar 2, 2008)

I'm just starting this project myself after studying this thread extensively for the past few days. I have printed off the DIY and my dad is extremely experienced in electronics and I am not too bad with them myself being a VW owner. If I have any problems, I will be sure to ask you guys. Thanks so much for putting all this information in one easy place. 
edit: I am not new to the forum, my other name wouldn't let me log in anymore so I had to create a new one.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (nixxxxxxxz)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nixxxxxxxz* »_Thank you 12v gods for the good advice on my electricak problem being the ign switch, I couldn't og daignosed my problem with out you guys.























http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Good luck to you guys doing the project.
I love how is matches my mildly polished manifold, and when inspectors open up my hood they don't touch anythingggg!!!


----------



## Oldtype1er (Jun 20, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

I just finished up this project today! Let me tell you. What A Difference! Threw a new set of plugs (starting gap at .045). This thing SCREAMS now! I just want to say thank you for this thread. Probably one of the single best mods you can make! Oh by the way, I hard wired mine, instead of using the trailer plug harness. Call me crazy, but I like solder and heat shrink!


----------



## farfromugen (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Oldtype1er)*

I have yet to change the gap on my plugs...for you F/I guys, have you changed your gap with good results? I have NGK coppers @ .033-.036 IIRC, running a VF Stg2 SC kit @ 8psi. 


_Modified by farfromugen at 6:27 AM 7-14-2008_


----------



## jettavr6dubbin (Mar 2, 2008)

ok i may sound retarded here but how exactly do you put a gap in the plugs? im sure its something obvious but im clueless and i see that other guys are getting great results with gaps. thanks in advance.


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (jettavr6dubbin)*

If you look in the FAQ it tells you how to gap plugs...
But put simply there must be a "gap" between electrode and the core of a spark plug so that and electrical charge can "jump" the gap and create a spark. This is what will ignite the fuel/air mix in your cylinders. (at the right time)
One of the principles or reason for doing this upgrade is because you can increase that gap to larger than stock when your using GM two tower coils instead of the stock VW coil pack. 
The reason for this is that the GM coils (MSD coils) produce a high capacity spark than the stock VW.
And no you don't sound retarded for asking a question like this.
Everybody has starts somewhere. (most people start were you are now)
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Oldtype1er (Jun 20, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (farfromugen)*

When I first finished the project, I left the stock plugs with stock gap in. Drove it about 20 miles. came home, slung a set of NGK GPower plugs #BKREGP gapped at .045, which is stock gap for most GM products I believe. Performance wise, I dont feel anything, but a cleaner burn is better, right? Ive seen some other threads where they are going up to .060, with no ill effects, but I dont want to risk it. I was taught more gap equals more resistance. i just dont want to burn the - electrode off the plug, or preignition if the plug gets too hot.
Please correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## Oldtype1er (Jun 20, 2008)

*Re: (jettavr6dubbin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jettavr6dubbin* »_ok i may sound retarded here but how exactly do you put a gap in the plugs? im sure its something obvious but im clueless and i see that other guys are getting great results with gaps. thanks in advance.
 Just be sure you buy a quality set of feeler guages. the "coin" type they sell on the front counter of Advance and Autozone, make a nice keyring, but are not very accurate. The only "retarded" questions are the ones the go unasked. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## farfromugen (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Oldtype1er)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Oldtype1er* »_ Let me tell you. What A Difference! Threw a new set of plugs (starting gap at .045). This thing SCREAMS now! I just want to say thank you for this thread. Probably one of the single best mods you can make! 

So, here you say it made a huge difference, then you say it made no performance gains?







Just giving you a hard time...I may try gapping to .045, I'm afraid to go too big since I'm running a supercharger, but a more efficient burn is always better. I noticed a smoother idle with this mod, thats probably the biggest benefit so far.


----------



## audisnapr (Jul 31, 2004)

just a little update... we did this conversion to our track corrado (w/o the resister btw) and it worked flawlessly. Noticed no misses and it held up to 8, 20 minute 1.9 lapping sessions at the new Lightening track at NJMP. We abused it and the setup worked out fine.


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (audisnapr)*

Best spark plug wire setup so far... Very secure! Well done.
It seems that most people let them hang all over the place..lol..


----------



## jettavr6dubbin (Mar 2, 2008)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sc_rufctr* »_If you look in the FAQ it tells you how to gap plugs...
But put simply there must be a "gap" between electrode and the core of a spark plug so that and electrical charge can "jump" the gap and create a spark. This is what will ignite the fuel/air mix in your cylinders. (at the right time)
One of the principles or reason for doing this upgrade is because you can increase that gap to larger than stock when your using GM two tower coils instead of the stock VW coil pack. 
The reason for this is that the GM coils (MSD coils) produce a high capacity spark than the stock VW.
And no you don't sound retarded for asking a question like this.
Everybody has starts somewhere. (most people start were you are now)
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

where is the FAQ? i must have looked over it.


----------



## PinoyVR6 (May 24, 2003)

*Re: (vaporado)*

i love this thread im goin to do this on my bros rado now


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (jettavr6dubbin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jettavr6dubbin* »_
where is the FAQ? i must have looked over it.

FAQ (all) http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=736260
How to gap your Plugs (from FAQ) http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1458763


----------



## dragonfli_x (Jul 16, 2002)

noticed some people were asking about how to insulate the coils from the bracket to avoid grounding out the system... When I first got my setup together that silentDub put together for me, couldn't figure out why the ballast resistor was burning my fingers off and car wouldn't crank... it was grounding out - didn't have anything around so I took and split a bit of silicone hose and mounted the coils on top of that to the bracket - it's a little fugly, but I got an ungroundable space now that can no way melt or anything








unfortunately, I need to reread this whole thread because I haven't messed with my car in almost a year and want to get everything ready for my vehicle's rebirth








old pic:
























these were all pics before - hoping it'll be a little cleaner the next go around!


----------



## Oldtype1er (Jun 20, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (farfromugen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *farfromugen* »_
So, here you say it made a huge difference, then you say it made no performance gains?







Just giving you a hard time...I may try gapping to .045, I'm afraid to go too big since I'm running a supercharger, but a more efficient burn is always better. I noticed a smoother idle with this mod, thats probably the biggest benefit so far.
Coilpacks made a difference. I couldnt tell anything with the plugs. I think .045 is a safe gap for essentially a GM ignition system. The NGK plugs I used were not supposed to be gapped either. It runs the risk of damaging the positive electrode, but I did it anyway. I just bought this car in June, (the first W/C VW for me by the way). I am overcoming a huge learning curve about the temperment of these cars thanks to this forum! Lots O' good information on here! Now if I can stop reading these threads and get to work, It would be great! My girlfriend misses me too!


----------



## Oldtype1er (Jun 20, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (farfromugen)*

Mine is NA. My z71 is supercharged though, and I know by dealing with it, they want you to step down a heat range on the plugs so it wont go too lean. For some reason I dont buy that, because you have an ECM that is reading your MAF and O2 sensors and is constantly adjusting for those variables. Plus with any supercharger kit you buy now, you have to have the ECM remapped to that application. So what good does it do?


----------



## nixxxxxxxz (Mar 6, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Oldtype1er)*

What's the point of using the resistor on the coils? To prevent the ign switch from blowing? I think I may wire one in because this is the 2nd time my ign switch has blown.


----------



## nixxxxxxxz (Mar 6, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (nixxxxxxxz)*

Doh!


----------



## jettavr6dubbin (Mar 2, 2008)

so i completed the install and started it up... and to no surprise, the same problem is still apparent as when i had the old coilpack in.... now i have no clue what to do, im going to re-do the computer reconfiguration cause i think i might have gotten a little antsy to drive it.... hopefully thats it..


----------



## jettavr6dubbin (Mar 2, 2008)

i need help asap.. what do you guys think it might be?
heres the problem..
the car vibrates pretty badly unless its going over 35-40mph, it also has no power and is really hard to get the clutch to engage. im thinking maybe the flywheel? but i dont know. i need help


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (jettavr6dubbin)*

Is the CEL blinking?
If it were, means you're misfiring bad
If not
Means it's not a coil issue
either way, it'd be better to post your own thread about it because very few people are gonna get to it 30 pages deep into the coilpack thread

I'm not sure what you mean by really hard to get the clutch to engage, but if theres serious lack of power and the cel is blinking you could have a bad ign problem (I had the wire corrode off of my 1/6 coil and ran home on 4 cyl, sounding like a honda, but still faster)


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Oldtype1er)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Oldtype1er* »_Mine is NA. My z71 is supercharged though, and I know by dealing with it, they want you to step down a heat range on the plugs so it wont go too lean. For some reason I dont buy that, because you have an ECM that is reading your MAF and O2 sensors and is constantly adjusting for those variables. Plus with any supercharger kit you buy now, you have to have the ECM remapped to that application. So what good does it do?

If the cylinder is being used to make significantly more power than stock, no matter how the improvement is reached (supercharging, etc.), then there is also going to be more heat produced in that cylinder. It's basic thermodynamics. Any particular heat range of plugs is designed to dissipate heat away from the tip at the rate corresponding to the heat range of that plug in order to maintain a reasonable tip temperature (i.e., one that should not cause pinging). Thus, a stock range plug in a hotter cylinder may tend to ping (or cause the ECU to overly retard timing to prevent pinging, etc.) because the plug tip got too hot, so a colder heat range plug is often desirable to dissipate the extra heat of such higher output cylinder and maintain a more reasonable tip temperature. Hope that explains it.








EDIT: As for the "go lean" part, they probably just mean that that particular ECU richens the mixture in an attempt to prevent pinging. Richer mixtures CAN prevent pinging by cooling the plug, but it's usually with a loss of power.
EDIT2: The main drawback of a colder range plug is that it might not get hot enough under part load conditions or idling, thus permitting more fouling in those circumstances. Some types are more prone to this than others.


_Modified by o2bad455 at 10:14 AM 7-19-2008_


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## Pete W. (Feb 13, 2005)

Just finished mine today. I am amazed how much it helped.
Thanks to all the guys that put a lot of hard work trouble shooting and maintaining this thread.
As you can see I still need to clean up the engine bay those wires I got from 4 seasons are a bit on the long side.










_Modified by Pete W. at 1:52 PM 7-20-2008_


----------



## Oldtype1er (Jun 20, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (o2bad455)*


_Quote, originally posted by *o2bad455* »_
It's basic thermodynamics. 
_Modified by o2bad455 at 10:14 AM 7-19-2008_

Do they offer remedial thermodynamics? No, really I appreciate the explaination!







Cheers!


----------



## DJP944 (Oct 21, 2005)

if i have a slight misfire w/ this setup.... what are the chances that its the icm????


----------



## dragonfli_x (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (DJP944)*

from reading up on here thus far, I'd say the chances of that happening are possible, but try smaller stuff like gapping your plugs a bit further.
if not, check the wires unless their brand new, then I'd check them anyway to see if the spark is flowing through them or not...
then I'd go back and check to see if your spark plugs are just bad...
after that, check your wiring to make sure nothing's grounding or jumping to the next closest piece of metal...(I know I said that completely wrong, but I think you understand) 
thenmaybe ICM...


----------



## SDKMF (Oct 22, 2002)

*Re: (o2bad455)*

Im sorry if this has been covered. But how does one pull these wire ends off the spark plugs when they are installed through the manifold?


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## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (SDKMF)*

Snap on make a couple of different plug pulling pliers...
Not sure if that would work for a VR6 but maybe worth a try.
http://www1.snapon.com/corporate 
Also... You could fabricate some MK4 style pulls for your MSD wires. (zip ties and some ingenuity)
If I was doing it I would secure the "pulls" around the silicone jacket. (am I being too obvious?) 
Post a pic of your solution. I bet other watching this post would like to know.


----------



## SDKMF (Oct 22, 2002)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*

i understand the solution is the premade wires from fourseasons but i am affraid the are going to be too long.


----------



## Oldtype1er (Jun 20, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Here's a pic of my install. I cut my wires and installed the MSD HEI wire ends. I just finished modding the engine cover to fit. I am happy with except for the part of the cover with the badge. If anyone has an extra on of these lying around, I will be happy to take it off of your hands!







To Cubix and the ones who came before!


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## farfromugen (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Oldtype1er)*

Just for the heck of it, here is mine again, I cut off the new Magnecors I had installed and crimped the MSD ends on them. Pretty easy to do really. I also modded the cover to fit, looks much better this way IMHO


----------



## Oldtype1er (Jun 20, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (farfromugen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *farfromugen* »_Just for the heck of it, here is mine again, I cut off the new Magnecors I had installed and crimped the MSD ends on them. Pretty easy to do really. I also modded the cover to fit, looks much better this way IMHO 








 Very clean! I like it!


----------



## farfromugen (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Oldtype1er)*

Thanks man! Yours looks good too!! I wish more people would modify the cover to fit, its really not that hard, a little patience and a Dremel http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif But, its not about the looks I guess


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## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (SDKMF)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SDKMF* »_Im sorry if this has been covered. But how does one pull these wire ends off the spark plugs when they are installed through the manifold?









Does anybody have a solution for "SDKMF"?
How do you guys pull your wires when using the stock intake manifold?
I have a Schrick Manifold so I don't have this problem.


----------



## Oldtype1er (Jun 20, 2008)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sc_rufctr* »_
Does anybody have a solution for "SDKMF"?
How do you guys pull your wires when using the stock intake manifold?
I have a Schrick Manifold so I don't have this problem.








Try this. http://www.mytoolstore.com/kd/kdbatt01.html


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## Oldtype1er (Jun 20, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (farfromugen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *farfromugen* »_Thanks man! Yours looks good too!! I wish more people would modify the cover to fit, its really not that hard, a little patience and a Dremel http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif But, its not about the looks I guess








 Yeah but I can get kind of anal sometimes. I want to get a new corner cover and cut it again to mate up with the side of the coil. If I would have thought a little more, I could have filled the excess grooves with some Fusor and tex coated it to make it match.


----------



## farfromugen (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Oldtype1er)*

FYI Rustoleum flat black matches the underhood plastics real good http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif The back plastic piece on mine is painted with it and you honestly can't tell


----------



## Oldtype1er (Jun 20, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (farfromugen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *farfromugen* »_FYI Rustoleum flat black matches the underhood plastics real good http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif The back plastic piece on mine is painted with it and you honestly can't tell








 I just noticed your sig! ROLF! I had forgotten all about the cowbell!


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## pubahs (Apr 2, 2002)

I know this thread shouldnt have any for sale posts, but just a note... I have an extra set of wires with pre-fixed 90d ends, and I have 6 multi-angle ends, and a bag full of 90d ends and HEI ends. 
I got stuck with this set, because I accidently bought 2 from ebay. IM me if anyone is looking for a set of 8.5mm wires. My loss is your gain.
Mods, please dont delete this, just this is the only thread where my part really applies.


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## Pete W. (Feb 13, 2005)

Ok I don't know if this is related or if it just happened to happen at the same time. 
Since I did the coil packs my gas gauge drops like a rock. By the time I have gotten 135miles from when I last filled up my gauge is on E. 
Has anyone else had this issue?


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (Pete W.)*

did you change the plugs and what gap if so?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*

CEL?
all plugs firing?
(check with ignition tester)


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: (Pete W.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pete W.* »_Ok I don't know if this is related or if it just happened to happen at the same time. 
Since I did the coil packs my gas gauge drops like a rock. By the time I have gotten 135miles from when I last filled up my gauge is on E. 
Has anyone else had this issue?

My mpg is just as poor as before the mod, 11,000 miles (7 months) ago. No better, no worse. Stock engine & gap though.


----------



## Pete W. (Feb 13, 2005)

*Re: (itb76)*


_Quote, originally posted by *itb76* »_
My mpg is just as poor as before the mod, 11,000 miles (7 months) ago. No better, no worse. Stock engine & gap though.

My mileage has gone up just that the fuel gauge isn't working correctly


----------



## farfromugen (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (Pete W.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pete W.* »_
My mileage has gone up just that the fuel gauge isn't working correctly 

Bad sender or I think sometimes the cluster can go wacko and quit too. I believe you can check the sender @ the pump, check the Bently.


----------



## Pete W. (Feb 13, 2005)

*Re: (farfromugen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *farfromugen* »_
Bad sender or I think sometimes the cluster can go wacko and quit too. I believe you can check the sender @ the pump, check the Bently.

Thanks I hope its not the cluster its only 1 month old and I got it new from the dealer.


----------



## TwiztidPhr34k (Jan 1, 2006)

*Re: (Pete W.)*

Mine works








3 8224's
Homemade bracket
soldered, siliconed, greased
No resistor
Autotech Shock Therapy 10.4mm wires
Plugs gapped at .050
Pictures to come later...cleaning up the engine bay and looking for a clean way to run the wires, thicker wires aren't wanting to cooperate in the little clips


----------



## VRdublove (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: (TwiztidPhr34k)*

I'm looking for a new set of wires for my MSD setup, I'm using the 8224 coils. What do you guys recommend? My old ones are from four season tuning (a great place), but the wires are fairly cheap and the plastic is breaking, the silicone on the wires is also rubbing off. 
Where can a get a good quality set? Preferably black.


----------



## vr6 nitrous (sweden) (Dec 18, 2002)

*Re: (VRdublove)*

stock ,and just get the plug ends to fit msd coils ,no problem to do that at all


----------



## 68redbug2000jetta (Sep 14, 2007)

*Re: (vr6 nitrous (sweden))*

questions....
1st.my car has 119k (2000 jetta vr6) and i think my ICM is bad but i dont want to take a risk and i dont really want to buy a new coil pack just to get the ICM....is there any other type of icm i could use???
2nd.i know the mark4 vr6's had the metal bracket and the SAI pump hoses that mounted to the two upper bolts on the coil pack.do i need to re locate the hoses?thanks


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: (68redbug2000jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *68redbug2000jetta* »_....is there any other type of icm i could use???

Several have tried, but no one has found a different ICM that will work.


----------



## euro16v (Dec 12, 1999)

*Re: (itb76)*


_Quote, originally posted by *itb76* »_
Several have tried, but no one has found a different ICM that will work.

I still have my 1.8T ICM (Power Output Stage) setup ready to go. Only problem is my car is 91 GTI with a 98 VR6 swap. I'm still working on the swap part and haven't been able to put my 1.8T POS to use yet. I have all the wires and connector part numbers that I will post once I can confirm it will work. I had some posts earlier around page 33 I think describing how the 1.8T POS will replace our stock VR6 one.


----------



## jettavr6dubbin (Mar 2, 2008)

well i just found something that made me pretty upset last night... i thought my icm was bad cause i was still misfiring but i noticed the plug for the coilpack wasnt tight.. so i had my friend hold it down while i started it and revved it up, and it ran perfectly.. when he let go, it started misfiring and then stalled... i think i just wasted about 500 dollars when i could have just tried to find a $5 plug


----------



## 1fast96gti (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: (Pete W.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Pete W.* »_Ok I don't know if this is related or if it just happened to happen at the same time. 
Since I did the coil packs my gas gauge drops like a rock. By the time I have gotten 135miles from when I last filled up my gauge is on E. 
Has anyone else had this issue?
 ya kinda it really helps if you dont go over 3k rpms for normal city driving but i have a cammed vr so its kinda hard not to lol but i only get like 200 to a tank so


----------



## chris.y2k.r1 (Mar 8, 2007)

*Re: (1fast96gti)*

I did this modification about 6 months ago and it worked great until one of the wires backed out of one of the coils. The wire shorted out and I believe it fried something when that happened. All fuses check out.
Symptoms:
- No power to the ignition; car cranks but won't start.
- No power windows
- No power to gauge cluster: fuel gauge, temp gauge, engine indicator lights on the dash
Can anyone help? I've been on this for 2 days with no luck.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (chris.y2k.r1)*

ign switch http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## nixxxxxxxz (Mar 6, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*


----------



## MKII16v (Oct 23, 1999)

*Re: (nixxxxxxxz)*

Upate:
I am now running 17 psi with a .035 gap with no issues. GNX pack with no resistor. Still getting around 20 mpg with a mix of city and freeway driving. No complaints http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (MKII16v)*

I did some testing with an alternate Igniter today, and I have some good and some bad news.
Good news: I was able to get a spark with the Volvo igniter during a test (on the car)
Bad news: It won't actually start / run the car for some reason








I had previously cut my 5 plug ICM harness and put in some plugs for easier testing.. Today I tapped into one of the trigger wires from the ecu with a circuit driving a volvo igniter and was able to get a spark while the car was running on a stock ICM / coilpack. The issue is that the circuit and aftermarket igniter seem to work when the car is already running, but won't actually start the car on its own.
Just to be clear, I did NOT have the driver circuit and Volvo igniter plugged into the stock ICM. I had it before it running in parallel from the ecu trigger wires, so that the stock stuff was actually running the car, and the aftermarket stuff was resting on the motor so that we could see the spark.. and it sparked. 
I was all excited after that and swapped all the stuff over to try and start the car with the aftermarket parts, but it just turns over. I'm not sure what exactly is happening, but I am going to see if we can figure it out.. I'm probably going to order some additional electronic parts tonight to see if maybe the stuff I used didn't have a low enough threshold to function on a cold start.. like maybe the startup trigger signals are weaker than when it's running


_Modified by Slayer at 9:41 PM 8-3-2008_


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (Slayer)*

I have posted this before but it may be worth resurrecting...
MSD have a newish product called "Dual Coil Ignitor and CPC Signal Converter"... May be worth a try... I plan to try this on my own car soon but I'm running a DIS4+ with my GM coils.
The big question is would it fire the coils in the coil pack only set-up?
I'm betting it would but as I said I'm running a DIS4+
http://www.msdignition.com/tc_6304.htm 
http://www.msdignition.com/pdf/6304.pdf


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*

hm, thought it was worth a shot, but while googling, i found this (lamune, 2nd from bottom): 
http://forums.fourtitude.com/z...41485 he says he tried one but it didn't work

_Modified by Slayer at 10:26 PM 8-3-2008_


_Modified by Slayer at 10:26 PM 8-3-2008_


----------



## lamune (Dec 8, 2003)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sc_rufctr* »_I have posted this before but it may be worth resurrecting...
MSD have a newish product called "Dual Coil Ignitor and CPC Signal Converter"... May be worth a try... I plan to try this on my own car soon but I'm running a DIS4+ with my GM coils.
The big question is would it fire the coils in the coil pack only set-up?
I'm betting it would but as I said I'm running a DIS4+
http://www.msdignition.com/tc_6304.htm 
http://www.msdignition.com/pdf/6304.pdf 

I have one of these now sitting in a box of crap in my garage. One MSD tech said it would fire the DIS unit, so I got it and tried it and it didn't work. Called them back and a different tech said it wouldn't work, but couldn't explain to me what the hell the thing is actually for. If you want to try it, maybe I'll send it to you. If you figure it out, buy it from me!


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (lamune)*


_Quote, originally posted by *lamune* »_
I have one of these now sitting in a box of crap in my garage. One MSD tech said it would fire the DIS unit, so I got it and tried it and it didn't work. Called them back and a different tech said it wouldn't work, but couldn't explain to me what the hell the thing is actually for. If you want to try it, maybe I'll send it to you. If you figure it out, buy it from me!










Thanks for the offer but I live in Australia... I would be happy to try it but I talked to a local MSD supplier and there'd getting a price for me.
How did you wire it up? Did you use two MSD Tach Adapters too? Do you have a schematic? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*

Also... A quote from the pdf...
"The MSD DIS CPC Signal Converter wires inline on the factory coil harness. It allows for the installation of an MSD DIS-4 Series Ignition Control and Coils on vehicles with factory transistorized/driver style coils. It achieves this by inverting the logic signal from the ECU and creating an output signal designed to trigger the points input of an MSD DIS Ignition. The PN 6304 will not drive a coil."
To me this sounds like an alternative to the VW ICM... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## lamune (Dec 8, 2003)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sc_rufctr* »_
Thanks for the offer but I live in Australia... I would be happy to try it but I talked to a local MSD supplier and there'd getting a price for me.
How did you wire it up? Did you use two MSD Tach Adapters too? Do you have a schematic? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Nope, not using the tach adapters as I don't think a MK3 requires any sort of feedback from the coil unit. Could be wrong there- there is contradictory info in this thread regarding them. I used the schematic that came with the unit, it's pretty straightforward, it just installs in-line with the DIS bullet connectors in the stock harness.
I was wondering where you mounted the DIS unit- can you tell me?


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (lamune)*

My DIS unit is mounted over the top of my battery on it's own tray. 
I also built a cover for it with vent holes in the side because the DIS4 isn't water proof. (and if I'm asked to open my bonnet by the local fuzz It's not so obvious)
I've seen them mounted in the rain tray area next to the ECU but I wouldn't do this because of the reason stated above.
I have the coil adapters and my car works perfectly. No issues at all...
This is a copy of an email I got back from MSD about the "Dual Coil Ignitor and CPC Signal Converter"...
Sir,
Thank you for your interest in our products.
1. Can you please confirm that "PN 6304" will work when interfaced with a "Bosch OBD1" computer in my car just like the stock VW "ICM - ignitor".
There are no guarantees. You can try adding it but we cannot guarantee its function will be the same or be compatible.
2. Also, Will I still have to use the two MSD "Tach" adapters as well as "PN 6304"?
Probably, the ECU is looking for a high voltage kick back signal that isn’t present when using the DIS-4. The tach adapter recreates the high voltage kick back signal.
3. And finally. How much does your PN 6304 cost? (I will be ordering this item through your Australian distributor)
Since you are in Australia you may want to contact Rocket Industries for pricing and availability. We do not sell directly to the public.
Rocket Industries-
General Sales
Ph: (02) 8825 1900 
Fax: (02) 8825 1911
Email: [email protected]
Web: http://www.rocketind.com

Postal Address-
PO Box 6670
Blacktown, NSW 2148
Australia

Thank you,
MSD Tech

-----Original Message-----
From: me.... 
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 11:34 PM
To: MsdTech
Subject: MSD Tech Question
first_name: Peter
last_name: Karnesis
address: 
city: Adelaide
state: SA
zip:
country: Australia
phone:
email:
re_email:
question: Hi
I'm in the process of installing a DIS-4 Plus and three GMH twin tower coils into my car. 
It is a 1994 Volkswagen VR6 Golf, (Bosch OBD1)
This is a coil pack waste spark six cylinder engine.
I have seen your DIS-4 and coils installed on this engine and it works brilliantly.
I was going to wire the DIS-4 into my car using the original VW (Bosch) "ICM - igniter" and two of your Tach adapters as recommended when I called your tech line a few weeks ago but I have noticed you now have a new product that could make installation easier and better. I am concerned that my "ICM - igniter" is now 13 years old and I didn't want to buy a new one because they are not sold separately to the VW Coil Pack.
Your MSD product in question is "DIS CPC Signal Converter (PN 6304)"
I have read the instructions from your web page and it looks like this product will enable me to wire in my "DIS-4 plus" and "GM two tower coils "without using the stock VW "ICM - igniter".
1. Can you please confirm that "PN 6304" will work when interfaced with a "Bosche OBD1" computer in my car just like the stock VW "ICM - ignitor".
2. Also, Will I still have to use the two MSD "Tach" adapters as well as "PN 6304"?
3. And finally. How much does your PN 6304 cost? (I will be ordering this item through your Australian distributor)
Please note this is a waste spark system similar to the GM V6 engine. The difference is that the coils and ICM (ignition control module) are built into one unit but they are easily separated.
I can provide photos and wiring diagrams of my car if needed.
Thanks for your time in advance.
Peter


----------



## Lttljp15 (Jul 25, 2008)

Hey if anyone one knows thats good at making one of these ill buy one and send my old coil pack as a core. this prolly runs about 250 buck plus time so maybe lil over 300 let me know if anyone is down to make one of these bad boys for my VR6T, thanks


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Lttljp15)*









Please don't post that in this thread, PM's only!
We already lost 2 prior threads, and I'm far to busy to start another


----------



## lamune (Dec 8, 2003)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sc_rufctr* »_My DIS unit is mounted over the top of my battery on it's own tray. 
I also built a cover for it with vent holes in the side because the DIS4 isn't water proof. (and if I'm asked to open my bonnet by the local fuzz It's not so obvious)
I've seen them mounted in the rain tray area next to the ECU but I wouldn't do this because of the reason stated above.
I have the coil adapters and my car works perfectly. No issues at all...
This is a copy of an email I got back from MSD about the "Dual Coil Ignitor and CPC Signal Converter"... <snip>


Ok, cool. Mine is bungee-corded onto the battery. Or I should say was. Right now it's back at MSD being fixed due to an intermittent heat-related failure on channel 2. I tried mounting it in the rain gutter but it just won't fit. If I could live without an ECU or wipers it would fit there with no problem.
I guess then your car is OBD1, mine is OBD2. Not sure if that makes a difference, but you've got me wondering if the combination of the tach adapters and the 6304 would result in a functional ignition sans VW igniter.
hmm


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (lamune)*

I'm using an Odyssey battery so I would have more room above my battery than using an OEM sized battery.
This is an older pick of my battery. I was mocking up for the install the MSD DIS4+. I'll take a new pic of my current set-up and post it here (showing alloy tray and cover)...







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by sc_rufctr at 12:36 AM 8-5-2008_


----------



## knottyvr6jetta (Aug 9, 2006)

*FV-QR*

what is this DIS 4+ thing all about? ive searched msd's site and came up with nothing


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (knottyvr6jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *knottyvr6jetta* »_what is this DIS 4+ thing all about? ive searched msd's site and came up with nothing

Try this >>> http://www.msdignition.com/ign...5.htm


----------



## knottyvr6jetta (Aug 9, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (sc_rufctr)*

thanks. i think i could find other things to spend my money on other than a DIS-4 for 5 bills.


----------



## 68redbug2000jetta (Sep 14, 2007)

*Re: (Lttljp15)*

so i guess i could use the dis-4 as a alternative for my ICM????i know my car has 119k on it (mkiv vr6) and id rather not risk it with the old ICM.thanks


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (68redbug2000jetta)*

You have to use your ICM even with a DIS-4+... 
Your stock ICM will fire the DIS-4+.... (if it's not faulty)
What we need to do is find an alternative to the VW ICM and that has proved elusive. The Volvo ICM has been tested but doesn't work.
There is another option... Stand alone ECU... The Lugtronic is a plug and play option for our cars. Tuneable by laptop and at $1400 is real value. It will fire the GM coils directly with no ICM.... And it's a true Plug and Play.
I'm looking at this myself as my Australian delivered car has not got a "chip" options available. My ECU number is 021 906 258 BK. Neither GIAK or TT have a chip for my car.
Check this out >>> http://braunstadt.com/lugtronic/node/13


----------



## 68redbug2000jetta (Sep 14, 2007)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*

well my problem is my car hask 119k and i would rather replace the ICM than re use the one and take a risk but the issue is,is that i would have to buy the entire coil pack just to get the icm and i guess there is no way to find a low milaged good one and test it...


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (68redbug2000jetta)*

Try MJM.... But at $309.00 it's not cheap. Maybe E Bay? (second hand)
http://www.mjmautohaus.com/cat...d=536


----------



## beenana (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sc_rufctr* »_
What we need to do is find an alternative to the VW ICM and that has proved elusive. The Volvo ICM has been tested but doesn't work.


has anyone tried this one from Nology?:








the model from their Profire line that I would imagine works with the VR6 is: 200 003 148 PFM-3A, 3 Channel Module (Module is triggered by 5 Volt square-wave), since they sell the single channel module in a VW specific kit with coil:








not sure if this is similar to the Volvo ICM. I don't see why finding something to drive a DIS4+ would be very difficult. I built a simple transistor circuit(instead of the stock coil ICM) for my dizzy VR6 to work with a Crane Hi-6. 
The reason the DIS4+ doesn't work when you hook it up directly to the ECM is because the ECM outputs are normally low and only go high when its time to fire the coil. The DIS4+ inputs are normally high and are looking for a low to trigger off of. When you connect them directly together, the ECM sees the its ignition output as being shorted to positive +, and throws a CEL code. I know this because I went through it with my Hi-6. I wanted a simple install, but should have known better. The ICM basicly "inverts" the ECM signal into something the DIS4+ wants to see at its inputs. Since there is no direct coil driving involved with the stock ICM and a DIS4+, it should last a long time. 
I made my own circuit because I wanted to be able to revert to stock quickly in case the Hi-6 failed on a long trip. The ICM on the dizzy VRs attaches to the coil, similar to the coilpack ICM. If I was stuck on the highway somewhere, I didn't want to have to muck around with screwing the ICM back onto the coil, etc.. Plug and play is the only way for me, I'm not down with splicing & hacking if I can help it. Hope this helps.
beenana


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (beenana)*

Great find... Who wants to try it out? Maybe if you pealed of the Nology sticker you would find a Bosch part number on there.
200 003 148 ~ PFM-3A, 3 Channel Module High Ampere Amplifier ~ $161.60










_Modified by sc_rufctr at 10:36 PM 8-6-2008_


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (beenana)*

beenana: Nology just takes a bosch type A unit similar to the volvo / bosch 0 227 100 203 and puts their sticker on it. it's got 3 channels, its unpowered (3 trig,3 negative coil,1 gnd)


_Modified by Slayer at 8:36 AM 8-7-2008_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Slayer)*

Honestly, you'd think there'd be something to replace the ICM cheaply and effectively
Has anyone taken an oscilloscope to the ecu?
I used to have one, but the friend that gifted it to me ungifted it to me....
odd how that works


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

That's an old Seinfeld episode... lol


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*

They regifted it to themselves!!

...we're gonna need a new JOHNSON rod over here


----------



## beenana (Jul 14, 2000)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_Honestly, you'd think there'd be something to replace the ICM cheaply and effectively
Has anyone taken an oscilloscope to the ecu?


if you're going DIS4+, all you need is a few transistors(I used 2N3055 for my Hi-6 if I remember correctly). If you're using the stock ICM to drive the MSD coils, you would have to get some high powered IGBTs or something, but I'm no Engineer, so don't quote me on anything..
beenana


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_Honestly, you'd think there'd be something to replace the ICM cheaply and effectively
Has anyone taken an oscilloscope to the ecu?
I used to have one, but the friend that gifted it to me ungifted it to me....
odd how that works









I have one, but its been packed away and buried so I never got a chance to plug it into the car. I'm gonna have to dig it out, too much guesswork here and its probably something simple


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Slayer)*

The VW ecu actually uses trapezoid waves rather then square waves as trigger signals.
However, you need to convert to the rhombus before or else the sin might be off


----------



## 68redbug2000jetta (Sep 14, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

so the nology one wont work either i reckon?


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: (VRdublove)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRdublove* »_I'm looking for a new set of wires for my MSD setup, I'm using the 8224 coils. What do you guys recommend? My old ones are from four season tuning (a great place), but the wires are fairly cheap and the plastic is breaking, the silicone on the wires is also rubbing off. 
Where can a get a good quality set? Preferably black.

If your wires are defective we will replace them for you, call for the return info. I prefer the MK3 type end's even on the MK4 as well. The wires are the same length for both, Just no outer plastic puller's. No external plastic except the upper boot. Downside is purchasing a Tool, But these are the better ends of the two styles.
Here is a kit for $120 shipped with the tool.








http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=576 








Red added as well with tool.
http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=602

Wires $105 shipped. 
Black
http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=606
Red
http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=600



_Modified by FourSeasonTuning.com at 11:15 AM 11-13-2008_


----------



## 68redbug2000jetta (Sep 14, 2007)

*Re: (FourSeasonTuning.com)*

hm....i may just have to get that set instead of the stock mark4 ones.....


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_The VW ecu actually uses trapezoid waves rather then square waves as trigger signals.
However, you need to convert to the rhombus before or else the sin might be off

WTF??? (rhombus), Can we have that in English please?


----------



## SoFarKingFast (Jul 9, 2003)

Rhombus is a diamond:


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (SoFarKingFast)*

Science... It works biatches!
The nology one most likely won't work, but then again.....


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

It might be worth emailing Nology and see if they can confirm that it has been used on a VR6... 
MMMM.... My time to shine








I'll post their responce here.


----------



## 68redbug2000jetta (Sep 14, 2007)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*

please do my friend...i would lovee to find out if it works or not.if it does work...i may do that my 2000 vr6...


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (68redbug2000jetta)*

E mail sent....
_Hi
I’m interested in purchasing one of your products.
“ProFire” Ignition Module
Item name: PFM-3A, 3 Channel Module High Ampere Amplifier
Item number: 200 003 148
My car is a 1994, VW, VR6 Golf.
I’m running the MSD DIS-4+ with MSD GM two tower coils. At the moment I’m using the factory VW ignition module to fire the Dis-4+. This is working fine at the moment but they can be flaky and often misfire or fail. I would rather buy your ignition module than buy another VW coil pack. (They don’t sell the ignition module alone)
Will your “ProFire” Ignition Module fire the DIS-4+?
Will your “ProFire” Ignition Module fire just the coils?
Can you please confirm if any of your customers have used your ICM on a VW VR6 engine and have they been successful in doing so?

Thanks in advance
Peter k
_


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sc_rufctr* »_E mail sent....
_Hi
I’m interested in purchasing one of your products.
“ProFire” Ignition Module
Item name: PFM-3A, 3 Channel Module High Ampere Amplifier
Item number: 200 003 148
My car is a 1994, VW, VR6 Golf.
I’m running the MSD DIS-4+ with MSD GM two tower coils. At the moment I’m using the factory VW ignition module to fire the Dis-4+. This is working fine at the moment but they can be flaky and often misfire or fail. I would rather buy your ignition module than buy another VW coil pack. (They don’t sell the ignition module alone)
Will your “ProFire” Ignition Module fire the DIS-4+?
Will your “ProFire” Ignition Module fire just the coils?
Can you please confirm if any of your customers have used your ICM on a VW VR6 engine and have they been successful in doing so?

Thanks in advance
Peter k
_ 


Got the reply back from Nology...
_
PETER WE HAVE NEVER USED THE PFM-3A FOR YOUR APPLICATION. NOT SURE IF IT WOULD WORK WITH THE MSD. 

JEFF KLEIN/SALES_ 
What now?...


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*

The Nology ignition amp is the same thing as you find on a Rabbit, 7 Pin Bosch module just repackaged. 
You could replace the stock ICM with three IGBT's like the Bosch BIP transistors. Packaging would be a concern, however. 
The big problem with the ICM is that it's a heat sink attached to a VERY hot timing chain cover pumping heat into it. Isolate it and most ICM problems go away.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

We had discussed the possibility of a phenolic spacer to put between the ICM/TC cover
maybe still a good idea


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_The Nology ignition amp is the same thing as you find on a Rabbit, 7 Pin Bosch module just repackaged. 
You could replace the stock ICM with three IGBT's like the Bosch BIP transistors. Packaging would be a concern, however. 
The big problem with the ICM is that it's a heat sink attached to a VERY hot timing chain cover pumping heat into it. Isolate it and most ICM problems go away.


The nology unit is more like the bosch unit from the volvo but with a different pinout as it has a ground, 3 triggers and 3 coil neg connections. The ones from a rabbit are a bit different since they actually require a 12v source and are only a single channel since they were use with a distributor.. I think they are 124 modules. I'll check when I get home


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Slayer)*

The spacer behind the stock pack is a good idea. 
The Nology in the 'kit' above uses the module for all the earlier knock box or mechanical advance cars. Not sure what the 3 channel one is used on but it's probably another Bosch unit.


----------



## gardensofsimplicity (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

This is my first time posting on this thread, but I have the same concern for the ignition system. It just needs to be better. Would the products from AEM work? 
AEM Fuel Ignition Controller and Pencil coils
http://www.aempower.com/ViewCa...D=116
http://www.aempower.com/ViewCa...D=123


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (gardensofsimplicity)*

I had a look... WOW... That looks complicated. I'm guessing that would be a first for a VR6.
I'm using the "MSD DIS4+" with GM two tower coils. I have been running it for about 10,000kms and it's great. No problems at all. I did do just the coils first as described in this thread and that worked well but I couldn't help myself...lol... 
http://www.msdignition.com/ 
Also I'm planning to go to a stand alone ECU down the track.
http://braunstadt.com/lugtronic/node/34 
Good luck with it...


----------



## pubahs (Apr 2, 2002)

Just wanted to provide feedback to this thread, the status/details of my install:
- MSD 8224 coils
- MSD wires (not Fourseasons)
- Gruven plate
Idles very smoothly, no hiccups or anything. Mind you I recently rebuilt the head, and its a freshened up motor, but EGR deleted, SAI deleted, PCV deleted. 
I havent had a chance to get the car on the road (other issues pending). But very happy with the swap, ill have to report back when I get it on the road. 
Picture to follow


----------



## drakula13mx (May 20, 2005)

*Re: MY EXPEIENCE WITH MSD (poopooplatter)*

i was looking at this post and saw the pic you put and i have a question about the set up in your turbo,, i been having a little bit of problems with the vaccum lines in my turbo,, i will apriesiate your help i been working in my car by myself and some help of a friend ,everything is set up but the vaccum lines are giving me a hard time,, this a pic of how i have my vaccum lines,,is this correct??


----------



## 1Rustybunny (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

7


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (1Rustybunny)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1Rustybunny* »_7

11


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Bosch BIP 373's seem to trigger off the stock ECU signal without an issue.


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Bosch BIP 373's seem to trigger off the stock ECU signal without an issue.

how did you have it connected? I was able to get a spark from the volvo ecu, but only while it was spliced in before the stock icm on the ecu trigger wires


----------



## HOTSKILLET98 (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Without hunting the 43 page thread, what's the best high temp silicone or adhesive (Can't realy solder) to lock in the spade connectors into the coil pack?


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Bosch BIP 373's seem to trigger off the stock ECU signal without an issue.

How did you wire this up?... Schematic please.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (sc_rufctr)*

On the BIP:
Pin 1 = signal wire from ecu with 330ohm resistor inline
Pin 2 = output to coil
Pin 3 = ground
You need to insulate the case from ground. The pin3/grounds can all tie together to the ground pin on the harness. 12v just passes into the coil. 
This has been bench tested, but not on-car tested as of yet. 
I would feel comfortable using these with any coil as they have built in current limiting as well as thermal shutdown protection. Instead of melting they just 'turn off.' This is an advantage when using different coils with the same dwell settings, nothing will break but the car will cease to run.
I wouldn't be surprised if stock Bosch coils with this type amplifier, isolated from cyl head heat wouldn't be 100% reliable.


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_
Pin 1 = signal wire from ecu with 330ohm resistor inline
Pin 2 = output to coil
Pin 3 = ground


hm, I tested vb921's with a 330ohm resistor last year but wasn't able to get any spark while on the car


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Slayer)*

I honestly don't think they're needed, but they work with the BIPs. Tested on a 93 SLC coilpack ECU. The later trigger voltages could be different, never bothered to scope them.


----------



## HOTSKILLET98 (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (HOTSKILLET98)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HOTSKILLET98* »_Without hunting the 43 page thread, what's the best high temp silicone or adhesive (Can't realy solder) to lock in the spade connectors into the coil pack?

Still need input please


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (HOTSKILLET98)*

Hmmm. 
I don't remember what was originally used when slientdub started the alternative. Maybe squees some RTV seal in the open area of the bracket once the spade connectors are in and the coil is mounted to the bracket.


----------



## HOTSKILLET98 (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Got it. Thanks for the quick response. Also I'm experiencing a slight firing stumble in part throttle between idle and 3000RPM. Could this be due to a bad ground condition that was referenced earlier? Please keep in mind the the setup is on DXTA but still used the OE ICM.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (HOTSKILLET98)*

Which cylinders?
Go through the troubleshooting process
swap wires on posts on coil -> see if it changes
--> If yes, Bad wire/plug 
swap coils -> see if it changes
--> If yes, Bad/Damaged coil
--> If no, maybe ICM


----------



## Project_2501 (Apr 21, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Alright, so I'm ordering up the parts for this upgrade, and the bigger things are fairly obvious, but I'm just not sure on little stuff (I don't want to miss anything, then have it all apart when I realize something isn't present).
I'm going with the bracket and wires w/ tool from fourseasonstuning.com, getting the coils from Jegs ( http://www.jegs.com/p/JEGS/752720/10002/-1), which leaves me with a few questions.
Need that resistor, the first 10-15 pages of this thread were showing between 0.7 and 1.4ohms or so, what's the current recommendation? Also, what's the actual name for the bloody things? I forgot it, could just hunt through previous pages again...
Edit: Did some resistor hunting on jegs, and found a Mallory one that's variable: http://www.jegs.com/i/Mallory/650/700/10002/-1 I'll pick that up, as it seems that's the ideal way of doing this.
What kind of spark plugs are preferred for this setup? I do plan to re-gap them as I go to see where I end up (probably just set .045 and run with it).
I plan to use the ICM out of my coil, even though it has 148k miles on it, it runs perfectly fine when it's dry out, but I have caused it to fall flat on its face on the highway in the rain. It should still be fine, right?
And a more trivial thing: What gauge wire, size spades, insulation material used, etc.
I'm trying to make this an afternoon project, not something that stretches over a few days.
Thanks everybody,
Patrick


_Modified by Project_2501 at 12:27 PM 8-21-2008_


----------



## HOTSKILLET98 (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_Which cylinders?
Go through the troubleshooting process
swap wires on posts on coil -> see if it changes
--> If yes, Bad wire/plug 
swap coils -> see if it changes
--> If yes, Bad/Damaged coil
--> If no, maybe ICM


I've done SOME troubleshooting to include new plugs and wires. I will try putting a different OE coil back in. If a new coil, plugs and wires still result in a misfire, I'm not sure what to do next.


----------



## HOTSKILLET98 (Mar 12, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Just an update for my issue, I've tried new plugs, new wires and an alternate coil and still have a slight mis at idle-part throttle. Under boost is not an issue. Plugs look like I pulled them out of the box. Any ideas?
The motor does have a real low compression ratio; around 7.8:1. Could this me the cause?


----------



## nixxxxxxxz (Mar 6, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (HOTSKILLET98)*

Anyone know why why why my ignition switch keeps shorting? Is that ECU fried?
I want to test the pins on the coil harness 
But can't crank it because I keep shorting switches, I'm on my 8th switch in a month LOL.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (nixxxxxxxz)*

I'm gonna go with a short and the actual testing causing it to blow
bet you're really good at swapping it out though


----------



## nixxxxxxxz (Mar 6, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Is there a way to by pass the switch?


----------



## SoFarKingFast (Jul 9, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (HOTSKILLET98)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HOTSKILLET98* »_Just an update for my issue, I've tried new plugs, new wires and an alternate coil and still have a slight mis at idle-part throttle. Under boost is not an issue. Plugs look like I pulled them out of the box. Any ideas?
The motor does have a real low compression ratio; around 7.8:1. Could this me the cause?

Have you done a compression test lately? I have the same issues, and after a compression test, my #5 cyclinder came up 20psi lower than the rest. My guess is that I have a ring slightly damaged, since I put some oil in the same cylinder to test it again, and the compression was fine.


----------



## loadedagain (Apr 24, 2002)

just a little bump to keep a great thread alive. the bits are in the mail. i'll post some pics once it's together and running.


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_On the BIP:
Pin 1 = signal wire from ecu with 330ohm resistor inline
Pin 2 = output to coil
Pin 3 = ground
You need to insulate the case from ground. The pin3/grounds can all tie together to the ground pin on the harness. 12v just passes into the coil. 
This has been bench tested, but not on-car tested as of yet. 
I would feel comfortable using these with any coil as they have built in current limiting as well as thermal shutdown protection. Instead of melting they just 'turn off.' This is an advantage when using different coils with the same dwell settings, nothing will break but the car will cease to run.
I wouldn't be surprised if stock Bosch coils with this type amplifier, isolated from cyl head heat wouldn't be 100% reliable.


Keep us up to date!
You would need 3 BIP737, correct? 
Buy them here or 
here (UK)
Read about them here


----------



## brubaker_119 (Mar 23, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

hey i will be staring this project...ive been trying to look for a way to put msd in my car but i havent been able to find anything to fit my car....thanks very much for the information....my coil pack right now is about shot...shooting arcs out of it and my car wont pick up for crap and bad gas mileage....


----------



## Project_2501 (Apr 21, 2008)

I've finished installing it on my car. 
I used Jegs coils, works perfectly. The car is noticeably smoother, a touch more powerful, and revs better. 
Gapped .040" on cheapo autolite plugs and 4seasons wires.


----------



## camf1an (Jul 24, 2006)

*Re: (Project_2501)*

What resistor did you end up using? the Malloy from Jegs?


----------



## Project_2501 (Apr 21, 2008)

Yeah, I'm using the .7-1.5ohm variable Mallory found here: http://www.jegs.com/i/Mallory/650/700/10002/-1


----------



## 22bsti (Sep 5, 2008)

*Re: (Project_2501)*

I have a VR6 with all of the classic symptoms, and am planning on doing this very soon, but I don't trust my ICM, Slayer any news on the Volvo ICM? The rest of this project seems pretty straight forward. TIA.


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (22bsti)*

The Volvo ICM is a no go... Maybe your best option is to buy a good second hand coilpack and use the ICM from that.
Good luck with the conversion http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## jetdavdub (Mar 13, 2006)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*

anybody selling these wired up? it looks pretty easy especially with pictures and everything for wiring. Just wondering. TIA I'm in so many projects at once on my baby I just wondered if someone already has some wired up.. PM me if so


----------



## MKeyevee (May 6, 2006)

So I thought I'd post a pic,
Got my parts from Jegs, and gruvenparts, both were great to deal with. It took me about 4 hours to configure everything, and I couldn't be happier. With my spade connectors, I used some dielectric grease, and then sealed with high temp gasket maker to make sure no moisture got in there. 
I also ended up just using champion plugs, which was nice to be able to gap them! I gapped to stock, not sure if I want to go larger...


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (MKeyevee)*

I like the look of your engine without the cover http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## dragonfli_x (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (sc_rufctr)*

I'm having some slight issues with mine, but it's mainly installer error, my wire plug sometimes falls off the ballast resistor and thus far it has happened twice... I probably need to just solder it on there for a more permanent fix, but how/where is everyoen runnign theres? mine is sitting hidden under the coil bracket.


----------



## IN-FLT (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (dragonfli_x)*

OK ..well this is an update.
Rule number one... DO NOT allow your bracket to get dingged up and have exposed metal... it will ground out your coilpacks... 
I am going to work on an idea for making a bracket out of something that will not allow this to happen. 
So.. be careful. Also I recommend using nylon bolts and nuts from lowes or home depot to cut down on the risk.


----------



## clunkyVR6 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (erevlydeux)*

Just FYI, I've got almost 100,000kms and 2 years on my MSD setup and my coils are most definitely grounded to the engine block. They're bolted directly to my metal plate which is bolted directly to the stock coilpack mounting holes on the side of the engine... no insulation anywhere. When I installed them I figured that the metalized mounting holes must have been designed that way in order to provide a good ground, otherwise why are they exposed?
So far so good, the VR6 still runs like new with 275,000kms on it http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## MKII16v (Oct 23, 1999)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (clunkyVR6)*

I am finally blowing spark out a little bit on the top end with the GNX coils. Running 18.5 psi and a .035 gap. Pretty capable coilpack for under $50.
No breakup at 17.5 psi.


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (MKII16v)*

Working on a new coil pack bracket.... (80% done)


----------



## knottyvr6jetta (Aug 9, 2006)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (sc_rufctr)*

looks nice. good work. u gonna powdercoat it or something?


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (knottyvr6jetta)*

No powdercoat. I'm using the MSD coil interfaces. Just need to lighten it some more and finish it off. This bracket will be bolted straight to the engine. The ICM is going onto a bracket near the battery.










_Modified by sc_rufctr at 7:51 PM 9-27-2008_


----------



## TOPLEVEL (May 8, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (knottyvr6jetta)*

Did mine about 8 months ago. Keeps evolving. Im using the stock icm with the four season bracket. Custom length wires and an MSD dis4-HO ign. box.


----------



## clunkyVR6 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (sc_rufctr)*

[/QUOTE]

_Quote, originally posted by *sc_rufctr* »_No powdercoat. I'm using the MSD coil interfaces. Just need to lighten it some more and finish it off. This bracket will be bolted straight to the engine. The ICM is going onto a bracket near the battery.









_Modified by sc_rufctr at 7:51 PM 9-27-2008_

If you have an Ohm meter handy, can you check the continuity between those mounting posts and the ground wires? I'm curious after all of this coilpack insulation talk.
Nice job btw http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## knottyvr6jetta (Aug 9, 2006)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (clunkyVR6)*

what size wires did u guys use going from the icm to the coil?


----------



## clunkyVR6 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (knottyvr6jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *knottyvr6jetta* »_what size wires did u guys use going from the icm to the coil?









I used stranded AWG14. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (clunkyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *clunkyVR6* »_[/QUOTE]
If you have an Ohm meter handy, can you check the continuity between those mounting posts and the ground wires? I'm curious after all of this coilpack insulation talk.
Nice job btw http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

There is no conectivity between the alloy spade tags and the mounting posts. These are completely insulated. The two spade tags feed out to the white wires. The black wires feed to the lower sockets (not visible and not used in our cars).
You should see my battery tray...lol.. (MSD DIS4+, coil adapters and ICM)


_Modified by sc_rufctr at 11:46 PM 9-28-2008_


----------



## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

Bump for James @ FourSeason Tuning
now i got a lot to read lol


----------



## knottyvr6jetta (Aug 9, 2006)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (sc_rufctr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sc_rufctr* »_No powdercoat. I'm using the MSD coil interfaces. Just need to lighten it some more and finish it off. This bracket will be bolted straight to the engine. The ICM is going onto a bracket near the battery.









_Modified by sc_rufctr at 7:51 PM 9-27-2008_

are the coil interfaces seperate from the msd 8224 coils? is it a better way to mount them?


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (knottyvr6jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *knottyvr6jetta* »_
are the coil interfaces seperate from the msd 8224 coils? is it a better way to mount them?

They are separate and considering the problems people have been having with coils grounding out they are a better (safer) way of mounting the coils.
There's no reason you couldn't use these on the Gruven bracket as well.
If you look closely you can see the spade connectors next to bolts. These plug directly into the MSD coils. These interfaces were made by MSD to simplify the installation of a DIS4+ into a GM car...
White wires to top spade connectors. 
Black wires to bottom plug. (can't be seen in this photo)


----------



## knottyvr6jetta (Aug 9, 2006)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (sc_rufctr)*

whats the part number on those. will be interested in that once i have enough money to buy my setup. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (knottyvr6jetta)*

http://www.msdignition.com/product.aspx?id=5119 
USD$40.00 a piece... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## CommieHunter (May 17, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (sc_rufctr)*

So, I've got the bracket and wires on the way from 4 Season (thanks!) and I've got my coilpacks and hardware as well.
I have 2 questions. The guy at Radio Shack didn't know what a Ballast Resistor was. What's the difference between that and a regular resistor?
The 2nd one is more important. This car's 1st coil pack (as far as I know) went out less than 30K miles ago (I'm not sure exactly how much, but 30K is a generous estimate). When it went out, it went out on cylinders 3 and 4. This one ran amazing when I installed it, like a VR6 should. After a while, it started getting just a little rough. I noticed it, no one else did. Then one day, bam. Cylinders 3 and 4 won't fire. So I decided to do this mod.
Now, when I take the coilpack apart, there are no visible cracks or anything else. Does this mean that my ICU is bad and I'm fixing the part that isn't broken?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (CommieHunter)*

Wow, I actually have a chance to post here.
The ballast resistor is sold at auto parts stores, it's a more robust resistor made to handle high use and high heat.
It sounds like you might run into an ICM problem since both matching cylinders are misfiring, but it could be a series of other things as well (worn wire from ecu, etc).
good luck
time to run again.
*eak*


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

BTW, some of these set ups are looking really wicked tight.
(yea I said it like that)
Love it!


----------



## CommieHunter (May 17, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Ok, so I'm still waiting on my bracket and wires, but they're shipping out today. Here are the pictures of what I have now.
All in all, the wiring was simpler than I was expecting. The connector and resistor in the first page DIY make it look harder than it is.

I found out that if I cut the tops of the posts off, then a 12ga Female spade connector fits on tightly. I am using fully insulated connectors, and I put heat-shrink tubing on below the connector.









Here is my wire for the 15 post. I have the solder joints heat-shrinked.








This is the whole setup I have now. I've got the wires to run to the coils, and all my 12v wires in place. I need to get a larger male spade connector than the ones I picked up, and I need to wait for my bracket and wires.


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (CommieHunter)*

Very professional set-up... Well done! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## GOGOVDUBER (May 22, 2001)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (sc_rufctr)*

hey guys im trying to do a similar setup on my 2.0aeg and was wondering if i can use an ICM of a GM and the msd coils would then just bolt on to the gm icm for me. i pulled two different ones at pick a parts the other day, one icm had about ten different wires going to it which i figure is not driven by the ecu and is wired to the cam sensor or something. the other icm i pulled from a saturn and it has i believe 5 wires going to it which is probably get it signal from the ecu like our vws if im not mistaken. im not sure if my original icm from my coilpack is still good. anyone got any suggestions... thanks for the help n i hope i dont sound


----------



## divineVR6 (Mar 21, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (HOTSKILLET98)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HOTSKILLET98* »_Just an update for my issue, I've tried new plugs, new wires and an alternate coil and still have a slight mis at idle-part throttle. Under boost is not an issue. Plugs look like I pulled them out of the box. Any ideas?
The motor does have a real low compression ratio; around 7.8:1. Could this me the cause?

i was having an issue with my number *2* cylinder misfiring. after checking the grounds, plugs, coils, and ECU it ended up being my Injectors.
if you do a search under my name there will be some posts and theres a link to the site i used, only $43 an injector and then a $10 when you turn yours back. so only $33 or so for an injector
my issue was on a stock motor w/o this mod done


----------



## divineVR6 (Mar 21, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (CommieHunter)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CommieHunter* »_









Here is my wire for the 15 post. I have the solder joints heat-shrinked.








This is the whole setup I have now. I've got the wires to run to the coils, and all my 12v wires in place. I need to get a larger male spade connector than the ones I picked up, and I need to wait for my bracket and wires.









did you wire in that resistor as well into that set up?


----------



## CommieHunter (May 17, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (divineVR6)*

I didn't. I figured enough people were running without resistors that they're not really necessary. I can add one before installation if I find one at a parts store and I feel that I should.
It'd just get soldered in on the 1st leg of red wiring.


----------



## onebdgti (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (CommieHunter)*

I wouldn't worry about a resistor. I've had this mod on my car since this thread started without a resistor and have had no problems.


----------



## CommieHunter (May 17, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (onebdgti)*

Ok, so I'm pretty sure my ICM is bad. Got all the new stuff in and I'm still missing on 3 and 4. Hopefully I'll have another one by tonight and I can post back on here how awesome this setup is.


----------



## beachball6 (Apr 22, 2003)

If someone wants to make one of these for me I will obviously pay them OBDI VR6 here.


----------



## CommieHunter (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (beachball6)*

OK, so I installed everything and it ran great for one day. That night, it doesn't want to start.
So I check the 15 post, and I have plenty of volts. And I check my wiring and it's fine, but I've got no spark. I had a little bit of a ground, not a ton, so I insulated everything better, and still no joy.
Are the coils actually bad or did I arc the plugs where the spade goes into the coil?


----------



## CommieHunter (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (CommieHunter)*

I made a double post.
I installed the MSD coils and they ran great for one day. That night, no start. I had power on the 15 post, and power at the end of my wires.
In the end, I got a stock coilpack setup and checked it in my brother's VR6, so I have a stock coilpack that works fine.
I plug it into my car, and no spark. So, just for grins, I switched my plugs with new ones. No spark. So my plugs and wires and coilpack are all verified OK, but I'm still getting no spark.
Is there a loose wire in the 5 prong plug that goes into the ICM, or did I fry my ECU?


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: (CommieHunter)*

Did you check power directly at the 5-pin plug to the ICM? Using a multimeter, stick the electrodes on pin 1 and pin 5 of the plug, switch on the ignition, and see if you get a [12v] power reading.


----------



## CommieHunter (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (Ryan Sickles)*

Yeah, I did that. I was actually getting about 14v at the 15 post with the other electrode on ground.


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: (CommieHunter)*

If you get power AT THE PLUG from the ECU to the ICM, then you can check the individual triggers (pin 2, 3, 4). 
You have to have an LED tester to see the fast flickering of ignition... you'll also need to have a second person hold the ignition so the starter is turning the engine over - so the ECU is sending firing signals. Make sure you cut the fuel supply so you don't flood the engine.
I don't remember the exact procedure, but check with the Bentley.
EDIT: Forgot your fuse panel is totally different than mine...







disregard #32.


_Modified by Ryan Sickles at 11:34 PM 10-14-2008_


----------



## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

so i just got my bracket from GruvenParts and i am eyeing up the coils and it looks like the bolts for the coils will be hitting the bracket.
what size bolts did you guys use to mount the coils?


----------



## CommieHunter (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (boozy)*

I think I used M4 bolts with 10mm locking nuts. They fit in my bracket.
I'm checking my ECU tomorrow, but my guess is maybe the ground wire is bad, I hope.


----------



## IN-FLT (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: (CommieHunter)*

my recommendation is bolts on the back side and a tiewrap on the front where the wires plug into the packs. Works well and helps prevent some possible grounding issues


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (IN-FLT)*

I just used zip ties, holds tight, looks good, not worry of rust, grounding or coming loose.


----------



## IN-FLT (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_I just used zip ties, holds tight, looks good, not worry of rust, grounding or coming loose.

i tried just zip ties on one pack... 
found out on the way up to h20 that will not work out too well... you hit enough rough roads and bumps and they will move around on you. Mine moved to the point where the terminals got close to the edge of the bracket and grounded out.
1 bolt on the back side where there are no terminals fixed it and holds it plenty tight. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (IN-FLT)*

Brain fart 
i have a bolt on the back too


----------



## CommieHunter (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Well, I checked the ground wire on my car today. With a multimiter I'm getting a good ground from the hot wire to the ground wire on the plug to my ICM coming from my ECU.
Unfortunately, I forgot the key so I couldn't start it and test my 2-3-4 pins for starting spark.
Should I do that or do I have enough info to blame the ECU?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (CommieHunter)*

Just so you know, I don't think we've ONCE had an actual ECU failure, yet everyone seems to jump on it.


----------



## CommieHunter (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

OK. I will make sure I actually check the 2-3-4 pin first. I don't really want it to be the ECU.

It's not my stock coilpack, 'cause I tested it in my bother's VR6.
It's not my plugs or wires.







I'll find it eventually.


----------



## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

what side are you guy refering to the "back" side? the side the spade terminals go or the side where the plug wires go


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (boozy)*

ICM side I meant.


----------



## jettaglx91 (Jul 27, 2004)

*Re: (Cubix)*

haven't followed this thread much anymore but just wanted to add that my setup has run flawlessly since early this year. 
plug were originally gapped at .026 i belive have never been back out and get 20mpg daily and 24mpg when adding in highway trips
went to h20, a track 1.5hrs away(made 26 passes), and 3hrs to the jersey shore all in the last month without a hitch




























_Modified by jettaglx91 at 9:34 PM 10-16-2008_


----------



## CommieHunter (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (jettaglx91)*

OK, I don't have an LED tester, but I do have a multimiter. I tested the circuit, and the ground wire in the plug is fine, and I get power with the ignition on.
I checked 2-3-4 pins in the plug, and I was getting barely a flicker on my multimiter. A light showed nothing there.
Is that empirical? Is there another test I should do?
I'm willing to get the parts I need, I just need to find what they are.


----------



## IN-FLT (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: (jettaglx91)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jettaglx91* »_haven't followed this thread much anymore but just wanted to add that my setup has run flawlessly since early this year. 
plug were originally gapped at .026 i belive have never been back out and get 20mpg daily and 24mpg when adding in highway trips
went to h20, a track 1.5hrs away(made 26 passes), and 3hrs to the jersey shore all in the last month without a hitch

























_Modified by jettaglx91 at 9:34 PM 10-16-2008_

any installed pics? that looks good


----------



## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

so i am pretty much wired up and was wondering why cubix only cut two bolts and not all four


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (boozy)*

No i cut all four


----------



## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

as did i
runs good


----------



## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

i think i read about someone rerunning the brake booster line. any pics?


----------



## knottyvr6jetta (Aug 9, 2006)

*Re: (boozy)*

i think u just kinda run it under the bracket. itll have enough flex to it. saving up money for this mod as we speak. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

so i did this. and within 2 hours i popped my hood and the line worked it's way off the manifold


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (boozy)*

Which line?


----------



## CommieHunter (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

The brake booster line.
I just undid mine and routed it under the bracket. If you move the line at the back, it'll slide under the bracket nicely.


----------



## jettaglx91 (Jul 27, 2004)

*Re: (CommieHunter)*

if anyone is interested i have a brand new never used mk3 ignition module just used the coils to swap the coils onto a mk4 with crack ones
IM me if interested


----------



## eurocustomgti01 (Feb 6, 2005)

*Re: (jettaglx91)*

just wanted to say this is a great post, did this mod following all the info on here and had no problems. Car started right up and runs great


























_Modified by eurocustomgti01 at 6:06 PM 11-2-2008_


----------



## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

just put in ngk bkr5e gapped at .044. no probs


----------



## angelod307 (Aug 16, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

nice.


----------



## VRsuper6 (Jul 8, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (angelod307)*

wheres that bracket from?


----------



## eurocustomgti01 (Feb 6, 2005)

custom made


----------



## VRsuper6 (Jul 8, 2007)

*Re: (eurocustomgti01)*

ahh, looks great. i only glanced at it earlier and i thought it said neuspeed on it. now i can read what it says. nice!


----------



## kermani (Jul 1, 2008)

*Re: (VRsuper6)*

That seriously is a slick lookin' bracket. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## eurocustomgti01 (Feb 6, 2005)

*Re: (kermani)*

brackets are full stainless steel and i can make more if i get enuff people that want them.


----------



## VRsuper6 (Jul 8, 2007)

*Re: (eurocustomgti01)*

how much?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (VRsuper6)*

Take it to PM http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## IN-FLT (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: (Cubix)*

how are those bases working out for you?


----------



## hoffmanvr6 (Sep 27, 2006)

*Re: (IN-FLT)*

added to watched topics


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (hoffmanvr6)*


----------



## CommieHunter (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (JackieMoon)*

If you're looking to do this project, let me know. I've got some parts/info that may be helpful.


----------



## olong_us (Nov 3, 2006)

thought i would chim in, i've been running oem gm coil packs from the junk yard for 2 years now, no resistors, and have put 50,000 miles on the set up so far, only had one issue 3 months ago , one coil pack cracked and failed, threw another one i had laying aound on form the junk yard and has been great ever since. just my experience, great alternative


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (JackieMoon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JackieMoon* »_

















Near perfect set-up... Awesome custom bracket... Well done http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## CannuckCorradoVR6T (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: (JackieMoon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JackieMoon* »_

















So is that the Buick base plate you are using here? How does the Grand National coilpack wire up anyhow? I just bought one, but it came without the baseplate.


----------



## JackieMoon (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (CannuckCorradoVR6T)*

pete at sleepers performance in hamden CT made both the bracket and spacer for me http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (JackieMoon)*

poser!!!.....lol pete is the $hit!


----------



## vdubzr32 (Jul 18, 2008)

*Re: (euro16v)*

HEY ON MAKING THE COIL PACKS DO U NEED RESISTORS FOR THE COILS TO RUN THEM ON THE VR6. I HAVE THE COILS FROM THE GM AND EVERYTHING ELSE BUT I DONT KNOW IF THE WIRING NEEDS RESISTORS LMK THANKS


----------



## vdubzr32 (Jul 18, 2008)

*Re: (CommieHunter)*

HEY ON MAKING THE COIL PACKS DO U NEED RESISTORS FOR THE COILS TO RUN THEM ON THE VR6. I HAVE THE COILS FROM THE GM AND EVERYTHING ELSE BUT I DONT KNOW IF THE WIRING NEEDS RESISTORS LMK THANKS AND IF SO WAT TYPES


----------



## CommieHunter (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (vdubzr32)*

Originally, the resistor was a part of the design because the user had a bad ICM, which was blowing coils.
Many many people have been using the setup without a resistor with no problems. As long as your setup is good, you won't need a resistor.


----------



## vr6swap (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (IN-FLT)*

Has anyone conclusively found whether an ICM from either an AEB 1.8T or a CIS-E car will work in place of the VR6 ICM?
I've seen both mentioned several times as possible solutions, but if anybody said anything one way or the other I can't find it. Fifty pages is a lot of info.


----------



## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

*Re: (vdubzr32)*

no problems with no resistor


----------



## CommieHunter (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (boozy)*

I read the whole thread. The other ICMs won't work.


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: (FourSeasonTuning.com)*

Here is a kit for $120 shipped with the tool.








http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=576 








Red added as well with tool.
http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=602

Wires $105 shipped. 
Black
http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=606
Red
http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=600


----------



## canadaru (Jun 27, 2008)

someone please help!!!
I recently came across the msd conversion b/c i needed to replace my bad coil pack.
My entire problem started when my original coil pack burst (sign of a bad icm) the car ran ****ty but got me home on 4 cylinders. I ordered a new stock coil (for the icm) and all other parts for msd conversion, the car ran OK when i simply replaced the coil pack with the new oem . It hesitated to start and took a while to actually get down on the throttle but after a while it seems to adjust fine. I drove the car to work and on the way back it simply died, i pushed the car into a parking lot and disconnected the battery cables, cleared the ecu, and checked all the connections i had messed with. After about 20 minutes in the cold the car started. I got it home and decided i needed to do the conversion and see if i still had the problem. I kept the original pack on the there and wired in the msd packs along with the factory coil, replaced the wires and it hesitated to start but then seemed to run very well, even idling better, i drove it from the lit part of my apartment complex to my parking spot and began to remove the factory coil to have just the msd working. Once i wired everything up AGAIN the car started but i did not let the ecu map anything, i was overly excited and wanted to rev the engine, i did so and the engine sped up, then simply quit, it would not start for the rest of the night, the next day i went and messed around checking connections and what not and again the car started, i let it idle for several minutes and then decided it was time for a drive, i got it and began to back out but the car died and not will not start again. I have a small obd2 engine code checker and my ecu is throwing the message "Ignition/Dist Engine Speed Input Circuit No Signal"
can anyone help diagnose my problem or point me in the right direction please. I have been w/o my car for 2 weeks now








PLEASE HELP!


----------



## canadaru (Jun 27, 2008)

nobody???


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (canadaru)*

Firstly, it seems like you were having problems before putting in the msd packs that you're going to need to solve.
You said when you put in the OEM coil, it ran "OK" but then died.
This is a sign that there is something else at play that needs to be dealt with. Almost sounds like it could be a bad MAF. Try unplugging that and see if there is a change in the way the car runs (or doesn't run)


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: (Cubix)*

_Modified by eurobred at 4:05 PM 12-8-2008_


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: (Cubix)*

my apologies then.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (eurobred)*

No worries, just we've had a bit of a problem in the past and it's important we keep this thread clean as to not lose the wealth of information accumulated.... again


----------



## IN-FLT (Mar 22, 2003)

*FV-QR*

I have found Autozone usually has at least one of these in stock.. as i am sure this has been mentioned before.
In addition to that.. when you call them, they cannot pull up 8224 in their systems, although you can on their website. Sooo.. if you call autozone tell them you are looking for item# 390839 and they can tell u if they have them in stock.


----------



## VRsuper6 (Jul 8, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (IN-FLT)*

so the MSD "base" things are not neccessary with the plastic braket, correct? or do they serve another purpose...


----------



## haygood (Sep 8, 2000)

*Re: FV-QR (VRsuper6)*

I called Autozone and told them I wanted an MSD coilpack, model 8224, and they pulled it right up ($45.99, I think). I did this with O'Reilley as well. It also worked again at Autozone when I showed up to buy it.
The bases are not necessary, but are for convenience. Unfortunately they are way more expensive than I thought they would be, and I think someone here didn't like them because they are tall, though I don't see that being a problem, YMMV.
I need to round up some plug wire ends and I'll be on my way, though I'm still toying with the idea of trying the 1.8t ICM/POS.
Brian


----------



## vdubzr32 (Jul 18, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

hey man your set up is great i tried it wired it up similar to how u did but the car didnt start wat might be the problem im usin oem Gm coils.
can i give me tips thanks


----------



## geeteeisix (Sep 30, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (vdubzr32)*

has anyone tried using stock gm coils as a temp so you dont melt your msd coils, checked p.o. numbers and they match 
the same coils are used on plenty of models so getting them should be easy and cheap as well
here they are on a 2003 chevy impala 3.8 liter


----------



## olong_us (Nov 3, 2006)

ive been using gm coils for over 40k now


----------



## haygood (Sep 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (geeteeisix)*

Good thought, geeteei. I wonder whether the mounting bracket or wiring connections used there would help as well? I'm sure they have a reliable solution for keeping the connections from shorting out on the mounting bolts. 
BH


----------



## VRsuper6 (Jul 8, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (haygood)*

^ good thought, anyone seen the bracket for that car??


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (haygood)*


_Quote, originally posted by *geeteeisix* »_has anyone tried using stock gm coils as a temp so you dont melt your msd coils, checked p.o. numbers and they match

I have. Whether GM/Delco, MSD, or any of the other generics, they all work for that style.

_Quote, originally posted by *haygood* »_ I wonder whether the mounting bracket or wiring connections used there would help as well? I'm sure they have a reliable solution for keeping the connections from shorting out on the mounting bolts. 

GM brackets have the ICM integrated [molded] inside them... so the only way to make them work is to try and use it as a replacement for your OEM ICM.


----------



## olong_us (Nov 3, 2006)

I've been using a gm icm as a soild mounting point and as a means of connecting the coils. I took the gm icm and hogged it out, figgured out what leads when where in it with an ohm meter, and solidered wires to them. ran the wires out and then filled the icm with epoxy.


----------



## geeteeisix (Sep 30, 2008)

so i guess it does work im going to use those from a scrap yard first before i wire in my msd coils 
they are way cheaper than the msd's incase my icm is bad but thanks


----------



## haygood (Sep 8, 2000)

*Re: (geeteeisix)*

So what are our best guesses as to which GM cars come with these coils? 6-cylinders is the first obvious guess








Any info on years and /or models?
Thanks. This is good stuff. (not that the other 800 pages weren't helpful)
Brian


----------



## olong_us (Nov 3, 2006)

they are on almost everything 
pontiac grand am's, grand prix's, vans
chevy cavalier, monte carlo, lumina, beretta
buicks, oldsmobiles
they came on 3.3L, 3100's, 3400's, 3800's they come on almost everything 1990 up finding one at a junk yard should't be a problem


----------



## geeteeisix (Sep 30, 2008)

any idea if the coils from the supercharged ones, if they are the same or any hotter because the boost granted they dont have much but still some


----------



## olong_us (Nov 3, 2006)

same


----------



## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

just run the msd's
if you have icm prob's you'd know


----------



## Drupthop (Dec 9, 2008)

*a different coil option*

Some of you may have already read this?
I was introduced to this website by a car parts guy when I asked questions about a replacement "dual spark ignition box" for our AAA motors.
The car in question in the write up/weblink is an Audi Audi A4 quattro fitted with our very own VR6 motor, turbo charged that produces - 645whp with 523 lb-ft. of torque
They run their own ignition coils per ea cylinder that produce over 100 kv's of energy. 
Enjoy!
http://www.034motorsport.com/a...d=146
DETAILED SPEC SHEET - A4 VR6T Quattro 

ENGINE:
# * Lower Half : The Block & Oiling system AAA Block bored to 82.5mm + align honed Main's
# 82.5mm 9.0:1 JE Pistons
# 90.3mm OEM Crankshaft
# Bildon 164mm/21mm Forged Connecting Rods + ARP bolts
# ARP Main studs
# ARP head studs
# 034 Motorsport Coated connecting rod & Main bearings
# 034 Motorsport VW Touareg modified oil pan
# 034 Motorsport Custom 7-lb Aluminum Flywheel
# 034 Motorsport Custom starter Motor
* Upper Half : The Head
# AAA Cylinder Head - Given 034 Motorsport Stage-3 porting Job
# 034 Motorsport +2mm Intake Valves
# 034 Motorsport +2mm Iconnel Exhaust Valves
# 034 Motorsport High-Rate Valve spring & Ti Retainers
# OEM Lifters
# Techtonics Tuning 268 Camshafts
* Ignition, Turbo, Intake & Fueling System:
# 034EFi Stage IIc SEM system +4Bar Map sensor
# (6) 034EFi HO Direct Fire Coils
# 034 Motorsport Plug Wires
# Garret GT3582R Turbocharger
# 034Motorsport Turbo Exhaust Manifold
# 034 Motorsport Oil + Coolant supply/return kit
# TiAL 38mm Wastegate
# TiAL 50mm Blow-Off Valve
# 034 Motorsport Cast Intake manifold
# Polished 65mm AAA Throttle Body
# 034EFi VR6 Fuel Rails
# 034 Motorsport Fuel Pressure Regulator
# (6) RC Engineering 750cc Injectors
# (2) Bosch 044 MS Fuel pumps
DRIVETRAIN:
# 01E S6+ Gearbox
# Stasis 5:1 Centre Differential
# Audi S4 Centre Driveshaft
# Stasis Clutch Type Rear Differential
# 034 Motorsport Engine cradle + Custom Gearbox Mounts
# Spec Stage 3+ Clutch system
WHEELS, SUSPENSION & BRAKE SYSTEM:
# Rota 17" X 8" rims
# Falken 255 Tyres
# STaSIS Engineering full Coilover system
# STaSIS 14" Alcons @ Front
# 034 Motorsport 13" custom units @ Rear
# Hotchkiss Rear sway bar
# 034 Motorsport front sway bar
EXTERIOR & INTERIOR:
# Reiger Front bumper
# A!Avant Garde side skirts
# Fibre images CF nbonnet
# AIM Pro Dash
# STaSIS Racing seats
# AP Racing Pedal box


----------



## geeteeisix (Sep 30, 2008)

has anyone had any problems with this setup throwing codes for misfire
i just got my set up done with mallory resistor and msd coil packs ran for about a day roughly and was throwing code p1300 which is misfire because of low fuel
im not sure why it would say that when im getting plenty and its also got a borla 2.25 exhaust and neuspeed p-chip
any help is appreciated thanks


----------



## Ronan978 (Dec 1, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

JUST DID THE CONVERSION BUT THE #5 WIRE GROUNDED OUT. NOW I HAVE NO SPARK AT THE COIL. I HAVE POWER GOING TO THE COILS BUT NO SPARK. CHANGED TO A NEW OEM COIL AND STILL NOTHING. EVEN PUT IN A NEW ECU. NADA. SOMEBODY HELP PLEASE!!!!!!


----------



## haygood (Sep 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Ronan978)*

You said you put in a different coil. Did you swap in the coil with ICM, or just the coil? Blown ICM sounds likely


----------



## Ronan978 (Dec 1, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (haygood)*

brand new coil and icm im thinking maybe wiring harness fried when it shorted out but i dont know. going to the junkyard now to collect some parts


----------



## TuRbOgIrL55 (Jan 18, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Ronan978)*

Has anybody done this using the 8870 interface modules but not using a dis4? I was wondering if it was necessary to use both white and black wires or if u can use just one of each. And if thats the case, which ones??? Thanks, this thread has been really helpful


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (TuRbOgIrL55)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TuRbOgIrL55* »_Has anybody done this using the 8870 interface modules but not using a dis4? I was wondering if it was necessary to use both white and black wires or if u can use just one of each. And if thats the case, which ones??? Thanks, this thread has been really helpful

Using the 8870 interface modules makes things a lot easier. If you read the whole thread some people have been having shorting out issues. I use my car for work so it has to be 100% reliable. (I'm also using a DIS4+)
The "white and "black" wires go to the terminals in the bottom and top of the 8870. I think the "white" wires go to the top (from memory) so these will be the ones you'll be using. The "Black wires are used when the 8870 is used in a GM car. They just plug into the coil pack shelf on the engine and then the MSD coils plug into them... If you buy them all this will make sense...lol..
This is a pic of my setup. Hope it works out well for you. 







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

so the black wires are not used without the DIS-4?


----------



## TuRbOgIrL55 (Jan 18, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (sc_rufctr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sc_rufctr* »_
Using the 8870 interface modules makes things a lot easier. If you read the whole thread some people have been having shorting out issues. I use my car for work so it has to be 100% reliable. (I'm also using a DIS4+)
The "white and "black" wires go to the terminals in the bottom and top of the 8870. I think the "white" wires go to the top (from memory) so these will be the ones you'll be using. The "Black wires are used when the 8870 is used in a GM car. They just plug into the coil pack shelf on the engine and then the MSD coils plug into them... If you buy them all this will make sense...lol..
This is a pic of my setup. Hope it works out well for you. 







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I do have the modules sitting in front of me and the installation manual that comes with it is a lil vaguge too, ( in regarding this install) Its seems pretty straight fwd with use of the DIS4. So what im getting is that the black wires are NOT] to be used, so i only have to run one of the white wires to pin 15 and the other white will be one of the triggers?


----------



## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

on my way to work one of the wires came out of one of my coils leading to a very bad miss. it took me a lil to figure out wtf was going on but i spoted it. so at work i popped off the coils and hot glued the wires in and it looks like that will be the last time that happens. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif i have been running the coils in my car for a few months now, no resistor, and no problems until this. 


_Modified by boozy at 3:06 PM 1-14-2009_


----------



## cacapino (Apr 6, 2003)

*Re: (boozy)*

i've had mine on for about a year now with no resistor and no problems, so far.....knock on wood http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 1fast96gti (Mar 8, 2008)

for the msd interfaces you use the white wires. doesnt matter which goes to which...


----------



## vr6newb (Nov 7, 2008)

is there a stock set of wires that can be bought at the parts store that will work with this swap?
ive tried to search for that info and read almost every page of this post and havent found anything that gave the info i was looking for.
i just went to the parts store and had them check out about 8 different GM applications and none of them had enough matching wires to the vr6. 
even I were to buy 2 kits some of them still wouldnt have the right lengths.

does anyone have any ideas?


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: (vr6newb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6newb* »_is there a stock set of wires that can be bought at the parts store that will work with this swap?
ive tried to search for that info and read almost every page of this post and havent found anything that gave the info i was looking for.
i just went to the parts store and had them check out about 8 different GM applications and none of them had enough matching wires to the vr6. 
even I were to buy 2 kits some of them still wouldnt have the right lengths.

does anyone have any ideas?

http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?category=7&type=2


----------



## vr6newb (Nov 7, 2008)

*Re: (vr6newb)*

i am NOT looking to spend $120 for a set of "performance" wires on a stock engine.
thats why i asked if there was something available at the parts store that could work..
for example, a gm v8 application that 6 of the 8 wires will work for this swap.









_Quote, originally posted by *Ryan Sickles* »_
http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?category=7&type=2

reading comprehension owns you...

_Quote, originally posted by *vr6newb* »_is there a stock set of wires that can* be bought at the parts store* that will work with this swap?
ive tried to search for that info and read almost every page of this post and havent found anything that gave the info i was looking for.
i just went to the parts store and had them check out about 8 different GM applications and none of them had enough matching wires to the vr6. 
even I were to buy 2 kits some of them still wouldnt have the right lengths.

does anyone have any ideas?


----------



## olong_us (Nov 3, 2006)

*Re: (vr6newb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6newb* »_i am NOT looking to spend $120 for a set of "performance" wires on a stock engine.
thats why i asked if there was something available at the parts store that could work..
for example, a gm v8 application that 6 of the 8 wires will work for this swap.









reading comprehension owns you...


You can use a universial set of accel wires. i got a set of wires from advance auto. i belive the were part number 4040r but the r stands for red, you have to assemble them. it isnt hard if you have a vice and a hammer. they are a bit hard to get on the spark plugs but it can be done. I used them on my car 2 years ago when i put the gm style coils on, I am now going to order set from four seasons b/c i went to change my plugs today and the first one i pulled, the boot riped apart, around the plug. if these were around when i did this, i would of got the pre made wires form four seasons, would of saved a lot of time on the install and fustration


----------



## haygood (Sep 8, 2000)

*Re: (vr6newb)*

So go to O-Reiley, and ask them to order you some gm plug wire ends. They sell a set of three boots, with three 90 degree ends to fit a GM coil. The set also has three straight ends, as well. Put the ends on your current plug wires. I think each set was something like $5. They will probably have to order them, which mine will do over the phone without prepayment, and it takes them about 24hrs to get stuff.
I'm going on heresay, but that's what I plan to do because someone a few pages back did that. ...But you know that because you read the whole thread.








I'd buy the 4seasons stuff if I didn't already have brand new 8mm wires. The stock VR6, which you make sound so sad, can probably benefit from those a little as well.


----------



## vr6newb (Nov 7, 2008)

thanks for the suggestions, as i do appreciate it. but, let me clarify a bit...

i am not spending $120 on a set of wires that i do not need to buy. i can buy 2 or 3 different sets of wires from autozone and make my own "kit" that will work for less than $75.
i do not want to purchase online, i would like to get this done as soon as possible (read: this weekend).
i am not buying anything that requires me to assemble the wires.

so let me be a bit more specific of what I am asking....

is there a stock application that I can get ONE wire set for, most likely a v8 application, that will have wires that will be close enough to the stock lengths that I can use. 
I dont want to buy the 2 or 3 kits to piece it together, but that looks like that might be the route i may have to take.


----------



## olong_us (Nov 3, 2006)

*Re: (vr6newb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6newb* »_thanks for the suggestions, as i do appreciate it. but, let me clarify a bit...

i am not spending $120 on a set of wires that i do not need to buy. i can buy 2 or 3 different sets of wires from autozone and make my own "kit" that will work for less than $75.
i do not want to purchase online, i would like to get this done as soon as possible (read: this weekend).
i am not buying anything that requires me to assemble the wires.

so let me be a bit more specific of what I am asking....

is there a stock application that I can get ONE wire set for, most likely a v8 application, that will have wires that will be close enough to the stock lengths that I can use. 
I dont want to buy the 2 or 3 kits to piece it together, but that looks like that might be the route i may have to take.


try a set of wires for a 89 5.0 musting, i remember seeing them on my buddies mustang they may work


----------



## haygood (Sep 8, 2000)

*Re: (vr6newb)*

You want fries with that?


----------



## vr6newb (Nov 7, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Oldtype1er)*


_Quote, originally posted by *haygood* »_You want fries with that?









actually, yes i do.
and to honest, i did a little mix and match at the parts store and got a set that works great.
dont have the receipt on me, but i will post the parts later. i'm currently working on getting everything back together on the swap now. 

total out the door was $40.

but i do have a quick question...
as i was pulling stuff off, there is a hose and a coolant tube that is connected by a bracket to the coil pack.
the hose come from the front of the car and then goes rearward and down into the engine bay. 
where does that hose connect to down there? mine came disconnected when removing the stuff and I didnt see where it was connected, i am searched around down in the engine bay to find the other connector that it would attached to and have found nothing.
as my screen name implies, this might be the first time getting that far into this engine.









it is located just to the right of the VW logo on the engine cover. it is ribbed/corrigated (spelling?) and goes from front to back in the engine bay and is connected to the coil pack via a bracket that also has the coolant tube connected to it.
help.



_Modified by vr6newb at 5:01 PM 1-18-2009_


----------



## vr6newb (Nov 7, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (vr6newb)*

got it done.

here are some pics. the last one shows that tube that i posted about in the last post. where does the end go to and what does it connect to? i know its some sore of air duct, but cant find where it connects.












_Modified by vr6newb at 6:44 PM 1-18-2009_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (vr6newb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6newb* »_thanks for the suggestions, as i do appreciate it. but, let me clarify a bit...

i am not spending $120 on a set of wires that i do not need to buy. i can buy 2 or 3 different sets of wires from autozone and make my own "kit" that will work for less than $75.
i do not want to purchase online, i would like to get this done as soon as possible (read: this weekend).
i am not buying anything that requires me to assemble the wires.

so let me be a bit more specific of what I am asking....

is there a stock application that I can get ONE wire set for, most likely a v8 application, that will have wires that will be close enough to the stock lengths that I can use. 
I dont want to buy the 2 or 3 kits to piece it together, but that looks like that might be the route i may have to take.


You can get the MSD universal wires set, P/N on front page
You'll have to cut and crimp tho.. Such is life.


----------



## vr6newb (Nov 7, 2008)

no cutting or cripping needed.

i acutally got it all taken care off the other night.
been driving on these since last night and put about 100 miles on it since last night and today's driving.

all i have to say is wow. it actually pulls noticeably harder.
i have my plugs gapped at .055.


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (vr6newb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6newb* »_









That's why I linked you the Four Season website. 
Even PepBoys carries some Accel and MSD universal kits that you can trim to the proper length.


----------



## Bucket.Racing (Oct 8, 2005)

*Re: (gardensofsimplicity)*

Just another one to add to the page...


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Ryan Sickles)*

Here is a kit for $120 shipped with the tool.








http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=576 








Red added as well with tool.
http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=602

Wires $105 shipped. 
Black
http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=606
Red
http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=600


----------



## jmj5150 (Jul 13, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

nice!


----------



## gotboost88 (May 2, 2008)

FYI . MAKE SURE YOU GROUND THE COILS OR YOUR ICM WILL BE DESTROYED AND IN TURN DESTROY YOUR COILS!!!! for all those that have already done so


----------



## Ronan978 (Dec 1, 2008)

*Re: (gotboost88)*

how do u ground the coils? someone did a continuity test on the coil where the bolt goes, and said it is not a ground.


----------



## MKII16v (Oct 23, 1999)

*Re: (gotboost88)*

I just found that my spark is arching through the boots to the head at the front 3 cylinders intermittently. I was using new Bosch grey wires. I picked up a new set of wires, crimped on a new set of GM ends for the coilpack side and installed them. I still get arcing at the head through the metal plug wire insulator. I wonder if some of the wires out there are just not up to the task of insulating the much stronger spark. Has anyone else ran into this who is not using a thicker, heavier duty wire?


----------



## Cultgti (Nov 17, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

IS the front page cleaned up enough to start this project without having to filter over the last 47 pages of changes and ideas. I would like a nice straight forward how to as there seems to be so many opinions. Also what would help is explain abbreviations like ICM and stuff like that. There seems to be a lot of conflicting information exceptionally with use a resistor or not and should there be an added fuse or not. Is there any way we can clean up and update the first page with most correct and up to date info as I don't want to kill my ecu or 200$ in new parts.


----------



## haygood (Sep 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cultgti)*

Maybe there could be a note on the first page saying when and at what page the summary was last updated? It sure would be nice for the moderator or creator to be able to delete posts.


----------



## Cultgti (Nov 17, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (haygood)*


_Quote, originally posted by *haygood* »_Maybe there could be a note on the first page saying when and at what page the summary was last updated? It sure would be nice for the moderator or creator to be able to delete posts. 

Yes for fun I would like to do this to my car and see if it makes it run a bit less rich and cleaner then it does but its very intimidating to do this when the info is kinda sprinkled over 47 pages.


----------



## vr_sex'n (Aug 9, 2007)

Whats the cheapest anyone has found the OEM gm coil packs? I already have msd ones in my 95 vr but I wanna fix my coil pack problem in my new 98 vr, I plan on selling it after i fix the coil packs so im not looking to do msd again. I found them at autozone for $26 each seems pretty fair


----------



## Cultgti (Nov 17, 2003)

*Re: (vr_sex'n)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr_sex’n* »_Whats the cheapest anyone has found the OEM gm coil packs? I already have msd ones in my 95 vr but I wanna fix my coil pack problem in my new 98 vr, I plan on selling it after i fix the coil packs so im not looking to do msd again. I found them at autozone for $26 each seems pretty fair

So what is your review on this mod..Is it a good idea and makes a big difference or not realy? Also did you use a resistor or not?


----------



## vr_sex'n (Aug 9, 2007)

ive had the msd's little over a year. I think my pictures are all the way back on page 32. Never had a problem, seemed to burn cleaner and over all better gas mileage. As far as performace its hard to tell because I went turbo not long after the install. The only reason I went with this mod is because i got my coil pack we while washing my motor. Now this time again I bought a 98 vr and its been sitting since 04 so the coil pack has prolly collected moisture or thats the reason its been sitting so long is because they couldnt figure out the miss fire.


----------



## Cultgti (Nov 17, 2003)

*Re: (vr_sex'n)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr_sex’n* »_ive had the msd's little over a year. As far as performace its hard to tell because I went turbo not long after the install. The only reason I went with this mod is because i got my coil pack we while washing my motor.

Do you have any issue with the OG ECU and passing emision? This is nice to know there is some one i WA that is familiar with this.


----------



## vr_sex'n (Aug 9, 2007)

200k on the stock motor and it passed with stock cat and eurosport exhaust. if any anything the msd help burn the fuel better with the multispark


----------



## gotboost88 (May 2, 2008)

well, the spot on the coils where the bolts go IS a ground. and it NEEDS to be grounded in order for the waste-spark ignition system to work!


----------



## Ronan978 (Dec 1, 2008)

*Re: (gotboost88)*

i remember someone doing a continuity test and they said it was not a ground. I dont have them grounded and the car runs fine but misfires after 4000rpm. Could that be a reason? What is the waste spark ignition all about?


----------



## haygood (Sep 8, 2000)

*Re: (gotboost88)*

So I did something just totally crazy and asked MSD. The metal part where the bolt goes through IS NOT a ground. It is a reinforcement for the plastic. No grounding is required. That's according to Tex, who answers tech questions for MSD at the phone number listed on the box. 
If you are having arcing or problems with the coil, he added, the most common problem is moisture around the terminals, so make sure everything is dry. 
Of course you might have trouble with the ICM/POS, wires, plugs, or elsewhere, too, but we just talked about the MSD 8224 coil pack.
I know this is an internet forum and we are supposed to all act like experts without actually researching anything, but I hope you will forgive me for actually asking someone who knows the product instead of just spouting off unbased opinions.










_Modified by haygood at 10:39 AM 2-12-2009_


----------



## Ronan978 (Dec 1, 2008)

*Re: (haygood)*

Funny i just got off the phone with them, thats exactly what they said.


----------



## Cultgti (Nov 17, 2003)

*Re: (Ronan978)*

This is nice to see some good clear info on the coil pack change out.


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: (haygood)*


_Quote, originally posted by *haygood* »_So I did something just totally crazy and asked MSD. The metal part where the bolt goes through IS NOT a ground. It is a reinforcement for the plastic. No grounding is required. That's according to Tex, who answers tech questions for MSD at the phone number listed on the box. 
If you are having arcing or problems with the coil, he added, the most common problem is moisture around the terminals, so make sure everything is dry. 
Of course you might have trouble with the ICM/POS, wires, plugs, or elsewhere, too, but we just talked about the MSD 8224 coil pack.
I know this is an internet forum and we are supposed to all act like experts without actually researching anything, but I hope you will forgive me for actually asking someone who knows the product instead of just spouting off unbased opinions.









_Modified by haygood at 10:39 AM 2-12-2009_

Exactly correct. 
That's why Four Season sells the bracket powder coated (and why someone should paint theirs if it's custom), to prevent grounding issues. The brackets themselves shouldn't be able to carry any electrical continuity as a _precautionary_ measure... which this topic is starting to deviate from with all these bare metal brackets.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (haygood)*


_Quote, originally posted by *haygood* »_Maybe there could be a note on the first page saying when and at what page the summary was last updated? It sure would be nice for the moderator or creator to be able to delete posts. 

Kinda like the date at the very top of the first post?








Should be clean enough to start without rummaging through
If someone wants to take new step by step photos with a slimmer design i'd be happy to put them up. I've been busy, for the past few years, insane I know. Infact, my vr's been dead in the drive way for about a month now, not sure if she'll bother running again.


----------



## violentaesthete (Oct 27, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

is anyone running ngk bkr5eku's with the gap adjusted. i read a couple pages and they seemed to say that running a .05 gap was best but i also read that you shouldnt mess with ngk gaps so what is the verdict?


----------



## violentaesthete (Oct 27, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (violentaesthete)*

anything?


----------



## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

i have the four season wires on now but i am gonna make up a set of msd's and was wondering if the msd straight plug ends are a p.i.t.a. to get on the plugs. any info?


----------



## jamesn67 (Nov 15, 2001)

*Re: (boozy)*

I'll trade you my MSD wires for your Four seasons.


----------



## dutchGTIdriver (Jan 10, 2009)

so where can i buy these MSD coils? ... and will my original vw wires work with the MSD coils, or do i need to replace them also??


----------



## haygood (Sep 8, 2000)

*Re: (dutchGTIdriver)*

Autozone seems to have the best price on them ($47, I think), and mine keeps a couple in stock, and can order more. You VW coilpack is female, in a sense, and expects the plug wire end to fit inside it. The MSD coilpacks have male brass studs, so they expect a female end to the plug wire. Rumor has it that you can take a set of eurosport or any other wire and crimp the ends onto them. Sets of wire ends are available from Autozone, O'Reiley and the like. However, MSD is the only source I have found for brass ones. Since their coilpack has bass terminals, that is a good idea from a corrosion prevention standpoint. Anyone else know where I can find brass wire ends that aren't as expensive as the MSD ends?


----------



## vr_sex'n (Aug 9, 2007)

Car is a 98 vr I have GM individual coil packs. Car ran fine for one pull of WOT then bam cylinder 1/6 are not firing, I swapped the coils around and replaced one to make sure it wasn't a bad coil. Is it possible for just 1/6 on the ICM to stop working? I herd of ICM going bad but I thought they usually just crap out all together.


_Quote, originally posted by *haygood* »_Autozone seems to have the best price on them ($47, I think), and mine keeps a couple in stock, and can order more. You VW coilpack is female, in a sense, and expects the plug wire end to fit inside it. The MSD coilpacks have male brass studs, so they expect a female end to the plug wire. Rumor has it that you can take a set of eurosport or any other wire and crimp the ends onto them. Sets of wire ends are available from Autozone, O'Reiley and the like. However, MSD is the only source I have found for brass ones. Since their coilpack has bass terminals, that is a good idea from a corrosion prevention standpoint. Anyone else know where I can find brass wire ends that aren't as expensive as the MSD ends? 

btw the coils at autozone by my house are $26


----------



## wav3form (Dec 7, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (vr6newb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6newb* »_
actually, yes i do.
and to honest, i did a little mix and match at the parts store and got a set that works great.
dont have the receipt on me, but i will post the parts later. i'm currently working on getting everything back together on the swap now. 

total out the door was $40.

but i do have a quick question...
as i was pulling stuff off, there is a hose and a coolant tube that is connected by a bracket to the coil pack.
the hose come from the front of the car and then goes rearward and down into the engine bay. 
where does that hose connect to down there? mine came disconnected when removing the stuff and I didnt see where it was connected, i am searched around down in the engine bay to find the other connector that it would attached to and have found nothing.
as my screen name implies, this might be the first time getting that far into this engine.









it is located just to the right of the VW logo on the engine cover. it is ribbed/corrigated (spelling?) and goes from front to back in the engine bay and is connected to the coil pack via a bracket that also has the coolant tube connected to it.
help.
_Modified by vr6newb at 5:01 PM 1-18-2009_

Please post the part numbers for the wires... i'm waiting for the day for my coils to fail and i'm going to go the aftermarket coil route. Thanks!


----------



## Ryan Sickles (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: (vr_sex'n)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr_sex’n* »_ Is it possible for just 1/6 on the ICM to stop working? 

Yes. You need to figure out why the 1/6 relay would fail inside the ICM (bad wiring, etc) before just putting a new one on.

_Quote, originally posted by *violentaesthete* »_is anyone running ngk bkr5eku's with the gap adjusted. i read a couple pages and they seemed to say that running a .05 gap was best but i also read that you shouldnt mess with ngk gaps so what is the verdict?

Don't touch 'em.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Ryan Sickles)*

1/6 seems to be the coil of choice for ICM failure.
As I recapped on the front page, I blew 3 coils before simply switching out the icm to another and having it run.
If you had coil problems before doing this conversion, then chances are the ICM has had some heavy damage, and as 1/6 is the side which gets hit with the most water while driving, it's typically the first one to you.


----------



## vr_sex'n (Aug 9, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_1/6 seems to be the coil of choice for ICM failure.
As I recapped on the front page, I blew 3 coils before simply switching out the icm to another and having it run.
If you had coil problems before doing this conversion, then chances are the ICM has had some heavy damage, and as 1/6 is the side which gets hit with the most water while driving, it's typically the first one to you.

Thanks ive pretty much read half the post on this whole thread all day. For starters yes I did this mod to replace a bad coil pack. When I bought the car it as running this way, looked like for some time now by the looks of 3 out of the 6 spark plugs. It did run beter once changing the plugs only. Then I did the GM coils and it was better for one pull of WOT then it went back to missing. But a friend of mine is coming over tonight so we can swap out ICM to determine thats the problem. Thanks for all the info guys


_Modified by vr_sex'n at 5:18 PM 2-22-2009_


----------



## veearesixxer (Jan 15, 2005)

Finished mine yesterday, take a look


----------



## vr_sex'n (Aug 9, 2007)

*Re: (veearesixxer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *veearesixxer* »_Finished mine yesterday, take a look

























Now how are you gonna mount it back to the timing cover since you covered the mounting holes?


----------



## veearesixxer (Jan 15, 2005)

got it all figured out, believe me i though about that before i mounted them up, granted the coils do have to come back off to mount it up but just thought i would throw it together so i could give you guys a look


_Modified by veearesixxer at 10:38 AM 2-23-2009_


----------



## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: (veearesixxer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *veearesixxer* »_just thought i would throw it together so i could give you guys a look

Hawtness. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## veearesixxer (Jan 15, 2005)

yeah i opted for a little more compact design then what iv been seeing on average


----------



## violentaesthete (Oct 27, 2008)

*Re: (veearesixxer)*

so i installed my setup today. i let throttle body adapt for like 30s and got antsy so i tried to turn it on. nothing. dead battery. 
i disconnected and reconnected the negative terminal and i am letting it adapt for longer now. what could this be? 
i have a napa resistor, maybe its too big, cause i dont know the value on it.


----------



## violentaesthete (Oct 27, 2008)

*Re: (violentaesthete)*

ok i popped a battery terminal thats what was happening.
but it runs like a two stroke.
i think i need to rewire...


----------



## violentaesthete (Oct 27, 2008)

*Re: (violentaesthete)*

rewired, no resistor, runs great.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (violentaesthete)*

Just rewired for the second time in the packs life.
This time one of the wires had cracked insulation which started grounding out in the cold/rain
I put new wires and put heat shrink on them for extra protection. I also filled the gaps for the coil connections with a resin so that water can't get in and they also can't move.
Works like new again. Something like 70k miles and 3 years on it.
I did notice the powder coating started coming up a bit and corrosion set in. This happens where any of the parts rubbed together. It's not bad, just an observation to remind people to make sure their set up is solid and doesn't vibrate too much


----------



## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

cubix are you running the msd or four season wires? i just want to know how the straight boots are compared to the metal ones


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (boozy)*

I ran both
If you're using the MSD straight boots, you can take 2 zip ties, and put them together so that the square part is facing out, one on each side, then you can use the removal tool as normal.
Operated fine, but when I worked w/ james on the OE style wires I switched to that.
If you don't get what I mean I can try to draw something up


----------



## veedubgolf00 (Dec 6, 2004)

*Re: (Cubix)*

i always check in every now and then on this thread. but anyways how many people aren't using a resistor on theres?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (veedubgolf00)*

I'm gonna say a majority of people


----------



## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

i think i know what you mean. like having the head end on the zip ties at 180 degrees from each other


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (boozy)*

Exactly
That why there is something for the removal tool to grab on to
Kind like wings on the sides. -( )- **
**not drawn to scale, or representative of anything that makes logical sense


----------



## veearesixxer (Jan 15, 2005)

im not going to use one, i have one but doubt ill put it in


----------



## veearesixxer (Jan 15, 2005)

Just got my wires today!


----------



## vr2jetta (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: (veearesixxer)*

So what kind of connectors are you guys using to connect the wires to the ICM/coils? Are you using the metal ones from auto zone or is there a place to get better conductive copper ones? I am sure I can get some copper ones for the ICM from Home Depot but the male spades going into the 8224's I am not sure about. I got my coils in a few days ago and my wires and bracket should be in Friday. Just trying to get a jump before the coil is all apart and I am stuck searching for decent hardware. Thanks!


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (vr2jetta)*

I just used radio shack male spades, or solder them in.


----------



## IN-FLT (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: (Cubix)*

figured i would throw an update on mine... 
after going through a few coil packs etc... everything is working soooo good and strong... my only germlin i had the whole time was the things grounding out on the bracket! 
If you are getting misfires etc... be sure to check your not getting something grounding out somewhere


----------



## vr2jetta (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_I just used radio shack male spades, or solder them in.

You soldered them in the coil? Did you take it apart or am I not understanding something?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (vr2jetta)*

On the original coils I used a dremel to grind aways the plastic and solder the wires into the bottem
It worked, but then they're in there permanently. You can find male spade that fit exactly into the slot and lock, then use sealant to keep moisture out


----------



## vr2jetta (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_It worked, but then they're in there permanently. You can find male spade that fit exactly into the slot and lock, then use sealant to keep moisture out

Cool, thanks. I wasnt sure, I have replaced those coils on a beretta and they just plug in so I didnt think that would be too big of a problem and I did see the setup someone was running in this thread that had used sealant to keep out moisture I just didnt remember seeing anything about what kind of hardware was used, so I brought it up in case anyone else was having the same concern. Thanks alot! I would post pics of mine up when done but it would look like half the ones on here so......LOL!! Thanks again.


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (FourSeasonTuning.com)*

Here is a kit for $120 shipped with the tool.








http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=576 








Red added as well with tool.
http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=602

Wires $105 shipped. 
Black
http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=606
Red
http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=600


----------



## 68redbug2000jetta (Sep 14, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

question for the mk4 vr6 guys..what did you do with the metal thing with pipe for the coolant hose that bolted to the coil pack?thanks


----------



## dasbeast3.0 (Aug 15, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (68redbug2000jetta)*

just spent about 400 billz on all this stuff since ive been wanting to do it 4 a while. picked up some rubber spacers for my coils, autotech shock therapy wires, gm boot ends, gruven bracket etc. even got a nice set of weatherproof connectors. all out faaancy







im gonna run a resistor since i want to reduce the chance of killing a coil...or 3. only had .8's in stock but that will work fine. i doubt a res. is much protection from a fried icm either way though. ill prob be making a nice carbon fiber cover for the lower portion of the bracket to cover up the wiring and such. we'll see how it works out. i was gonna make a carbon bracket, but its really kinda pointless..c/f conducts electricity very well and will still ground out just like a metal bracket..i figured id save myself the work and just buy the metal one. ill post some pics / thoughts when done.


----------



## Coogi13 (Dec 13, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (dasbeast3.0)*

if I was to buy a used setup off of a obd2 VR6 and Im obd1 would it make a difference?


----------



## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (FourSeasonTuning.com)*

FourSeasonTuning.com = http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif +








Awesome to deal with and that metal puller is a must have!
Goes back and forth between my buddies like a cheap hooker...
I have been reading up on the MSD setup and think I might start getting some supplies ready for summer


----------



## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

Damn this thread is still GOING!!!!!
Damn, What did I start.
I am pushing 200K miles on my MSD Coils and MSD Wires with no ill effects. I still run standard plugs with this setup with no decrease in performance or gas milage. I am still getting over 30MPG highway.
I am still using one of my original brackets, even though I have one of Paul's sitting on the bench.
FYI: I have since started http://www.mk1dubz.com in order document my MK1 project, feel free to check it out. Still working on it though.
Keep it going guys!!!!
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (68redbug2000jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *68redbug2000jetta* »_question for the mk4 vr6 guys..what did you do with the metal thing with pipe for the coolant hose that bolted to the coil pack?thanks


Zip Tied mine below the bracket. just sitting there.


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

My 95 GTI VR6 came home on a flatbed today after another stock coilpack failed. Just finished installing 3 yellow Accel coil packs on red anodized eBay bracket with yellow FourSeasonTuning wires. Fired right up and ran perfectly







Looks good and took pics, which I'll try to post at some point. I think it's going to be hard to keep those yellow wires clean, though (note to self -- get darker color next time). A few comments while it's all still fresh in my mind:
1) I used an Accel ballast resistor from Summit, and it didn't come with a washer. First time I started tightening, it cracked. Make sure to use a big flat washer to mount these sandstone resistors. 
2) I mounted my coils with the high-tension posts towards the engine, and the FourSeasonsTuning wires are a bit too long for this orientation. Is either end easily removable to adjust length (e.g., does the spark plug connector screw into the wire, or is it crimped)? 
3) The red aluminum eBay bracket that I used is only held to the base by the 4 mounting bolts that go through to the head. It would be nice to mount it to the base separately to ease installation and reduce the chance of wiring damage. Does the FourSeasonsTuning bracket have that provision?
4) The red aluminum eBay bracket is too long, and hits the aux water pump (on 95 GTI). I actually had to remove the pump to get the bracket in, and then squeezed the pump in behind it. I'll clearance the bracket the next time I take it out (about half an inch off of mounting base). 
Can't wait to take it on a nice long trip tomorrow







I wonder if I'll see a noticeable gain in mileage without having touched the plug gaps. 


_Modified by o2bad455 at 12:03 AM 4-2-2009_


----------



## MKII16v (Oct 23, 1999)

*Re: (o2bad455)*

Update: My GNX coilpack is still rocking. 19 psi and a .032 gap. No blow out.


----------



## haygood (Sep 8, 2000)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (dasbeast3.0)*

Dasbeast;
What rubber spacers? Where d'ya get those? Pics?
BH


----------



## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: (o2bad455)*

Can you give me a link to the bracket you purchased?
The bracket I gave up to Paul at Gruvenparts fits perfectly. The one he made fits better than my original.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (silentdub)*

Who's bracket?
The one @ fourseason is pauls bracket


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (silentdub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *silentdub* »_Can you give me a link to the bracket you purchased?
The bracket I gave up to Paul at Gruvenparts fits perfectly. The one he made fits better than my original.


I'll find it and IM to you. Wouldn't want to risk posting unless the mod okays it first. 
EDIT: Nevermind, I can't find the auction link anymore. Here are some pics of my install, though:
http://s184.photobucket.com/al...acks/ 


_Modified by o2bad455 at 8:34 PM 4-2-2009_


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

The 3rd to the last picture shows a close-up of the bracket clearance issue, and this is after bending the engine harness modular connector bracket back as far as I could. Basically, the extra material on the lower coilpack bracket mounting flange between the black Allen bolts (to head) and the aux water pump needs to be clearanced or cut away. The top of the bracket (where the coils mount) is fine.
http://s184.photobucket.com/al...acks/


----------



## wav3form (Dec 7, 2008)

This is a really dumb noob question. My vr6 has 76k miles now and it's on the same coil pack and it's still running strong. Am I lucky or should I start buying these aftermarket coil packs and get ready for trouble?


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (vr2jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr2jetta* »_
You soldered them in the coil? Did you take it apart or am I not understanding something?

Although some have dremeled and then soldered to the MSD coils, the Accel coils have a small removable plastic cover right there, so no dremeling necessary (just remember to slide cover onto wire before soldering).


----------



## haygood (Sep 8, 2000)

*Re: (wav3form)*

My '95 Passat GLX (VR6) has 118,000 miles on it and had some hairline cracks in the original stock coilpack. I used MEK to melt some plastic and adhere new sheets of black plastic to the sides of the coilpack. It runs fine now. I caught it before it was too late, and didn't experience a sudden failure like some have.
So the problem can be solved in other ways. However, I have also purchased the MSD coils and will fab up mounts and wires for them then switch to that for the performance and efficiency and because I can. 
So its your call. You can probably get past some more miles before you are forced to deal with it. On the other hand, if you plan to keep the car long enough that you will have to do it someday, you might as well do it today before your ICM is fried and enjoy whatever slight efficiency benefit it might provide.


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (wav3form)*

They all seem to fail, and it seems to have very little to do with mileage -- probably more to do with number of heat cycles (say, from a cold engine) and max temperatures in the engine compartment. I'm sure moisture and freezing don't help either. If you can't see any cracks and it's not giving you trouble, count your blessings and bookmark this thread for future use.


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (MKII16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MKII16v* »_Update: My GNX coilpack is still rocking. 19 psi and a .032 gap. No blow out.

Very cool. Are you the only one running that?


----------



## wav3form (Dec 7, 2008)

Points well taken. I plan on keeping the car for quite a while so i'll start replacing the parts that seem to go down as I get the money.


----------



## MKII16v (Oct 23, 1999)

*Re: (o2bad455)*

I think quite a few on here are running the GNX pack. You can find them for about $50-$60.


----------



## VEE-DUBBER (Nov 22, 2000)

*Re: (MKII16v)*

running GNX as well. easy install. as close to factory look as it gets.


----------



## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

*Re: (VEE-DUBBER)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VEE-DUBBER* »_running GNX as well. easy install. as close to factory look as it gets.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4223032 here is another alternative for a stock look


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (ricardo)*

I sooo bought a GTI today








MSD for the 2.0t???? hmmmm


----------



## VRpoweredA2 (Oct 8, 2000)

*Re: (Cubix)*

What kind of gaps are the folks with Turbo who did this mod running?


----------



## hoffmanvr6 (Sep 27, 2006)

*Re: (VRpoweredA2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRpoweredA2* »_What kind of gaps are the folks with Turbo who did this mod running?



.32 worked for me.


----------



## 68redbug2000jetta (Sep 14, 2007)

*Re: (hoffmanvr6)*

i guess i will need silicone to keep the connectors from popping out of the coils?


----------



## BiSiE (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: (68redbug2000jetta)*

I picked up a set of MSD coils and generic ends (GM) for 14 bucks, so excited








does anyone have a template for the MSD bracket? i found it earlier in this thread but pic is out of order. can someone just trace it and scan? i love you long time (in a non gay way), give you TV-remote control, and if you ever come to visit in kazakhstan, you can have my wife, she is niiice, i like.
Thnx


----------



## WolfzGangVR6 (Jan 1, 2002)

*Re: (hoffmanvr6)*

being that the spark is much hotter i can see that working. i would still gap my vr-t in the .22-.26 range.


----------



## IwannaGTI (Jul 12, 2001)

*Re: (VRpoweredA2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRpoweredA2* »_What kind of gaps are the folks with Turbo who did this mod running?

.44 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Das Borgen (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: (IwannaGTI)*

what gauge of wire should you run from the coil to the ICM???? I'm thinking 14g is sufficient and I dunno if I should go for 12....definitely not 10.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Das Borgen)*

I'd say 14g FTW. I used 12g and it's pretty much overkill in my opinion


----------



## Das Borgen (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: (Cubix)*

is 14g the size of the wire from the engine harness to the coilpack? it looks like it is but i'm not sure


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Das Borgen)*

The harness to the ICM is actually more like 16g
But the Harness carriers low voltage signals, like 5v


----------



## Das Borgen (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: (Cubix)*

so 14g for the ICM to coils is fine???


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

I have an interesting problem. Since I did this conversion on my OBD1 95 VR6, the car spewed out black smoke when first started each morning. It was obvious for the first minute or two, but completely gone once I hit the highway a mile from my house. Then it would be fine until the next morning. 
I thought it was just taking a while for the adaptations to catch up, but I finally did a reset by disconnecting the battery and jumpering pos to neg cables for about 20 minutes. To my surprise, no difference at all, even after a few more days. 
Then I used VAG-COM. It showed no relevant codes (other than unrelated SAI, which has been removed). 
Finally put in a good stock coil just for kicks, and suddenly the car is perfectly fine -- no morning richness at all. Now I'm stumped...
Any ideas? My next step could be to put the whole set-up into a different car (maybe an OBD2 97 VR6) to see what it does there, but I guess that wouldn't be conclusive (especially if it's okay there). On the other hand, if it smoked there too, I guess it would at least show that it's got something to do with my coilpacks project.


_Modified by o2bad455 at 5:32 PM 5-9-2009_


----------



## Vortexpert (Apr 17, 2008)

*Re: (o2bad455)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 22bsti (Sep 5, 2008)

I finally did this on my MKIV VR6, and it does seem to rev much smoother, I ended up using the NGK Iridium plugs and so far it seems to rev much smoother and after it warms up seems to idle around 650 or so which is quite abit lower than before (don't know if that's an issue or not) but all seems good. What are the rest of the MKIV users doing with the Throttle Body coolant line and the vacum line from the air box?


----------



## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (MKII16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MKII16v* »_Update: My GNX coilpack is still rocking. 19 psi and a .032 gap. No blow out.

me 2 ! it rocks and looks stock !


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (o2bad455)*


_Quote, originally posted by *o2bad455* »_I have an interesting problem. Since I did this conversion on my OBD1 95 VR6, the car spewed out black smoke when first started each morning. It was obvious for the first minute or two, but completely gone once I hit the highway a mile from my house. Then it would be fine until the next morning. 
I thought it was just taking a while for the adaptations to catch up, but I finally did a reset by disconnecting the battery and jumpering pos to neg cables for about 20 minutes. To my surprise, no difference at all, even after a few more days. 
Then I used VAG-COM. It showed no relevant codes (other than unrelated SAI, which has been removed). 
Finally put in a good stock coil just for kicks, and suddenly the car is perfectly fine -- no morning richness at all. Now I'm stumped...
Any ideas? My next step could be to put the whole set-up into a different car (maybe an OBD2 97 VR6) to see what it does there, but I guess that wouldn't be conclusive (especially if it's okay there). On the other hand, if it smoked there too, I guess it would at least show that it's got something to do with my coilpacks project.

_Modified by o2bad455 at 5:32 PM 5-9-2009_

Sounds like you're having some poor power issues. Check your wiring as said above. Most likely you've got 2 cylinders not burning completely. Could be Wires/coil/coil wiring/icm
Start with your wiring.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## VEE-DUBBER (Nov 22, 2000)

*Re: (o2bad455)*


_Quote, originally posted by *o2bad455* »_I have an interesting problem. Since I did this conversion on my OBD1 95 VR6, the car spewed out black smoke when first started each morning. It was obvious for the first minute or two, but completely gone once I hit the highway a mile from my house. Then it would be fine until the next morning. 
I thought it was just taking a while for the adaptations to catch up, but I finally did a reset by disconnecting the battery and jumpering pos to neg cables for about 20 minutes. To my surprise, no difference at all, even after a few more days. 
Then I used VAG-COM. It showed no relevant codes (other than unrelated SAI, which has been removed). 
Finally put in a good stock coil just for kicks, and suddenly the car is perfectly fine -- no morning richness at all. Now I'm stumped...
Any ideas? My next step could be to put the whole set-up into a different car (maybe an OBD2 97 VR6) to see what it does there, but I guess that wouldn't be conclusive (especially if it's okay there). On the other hand, if it smoked there too, I guess it would at least show that it's got something to do with my coilpacks project.

_Modified by o2bad455 at 5:32 PM 5-9-2009_

similar issue. no black smoke but it runs on 5 cylinders some mornings for about 10-20 seconds. i'd like the throw a stock coilpack on to see if the issue is my gnx setup. something in my own install.


----------



## Das Borgen (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: (dtm337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dtm337* »_
me 2 ! it rocks and looks stock !

pics of the GNX coilpack please?


----------



## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (Das Borgen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Das Borgen* »_
pics of the GNX coilpack please?

here's mines


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_
Sounds like you're having some poor power issues. Check your wiring as said above. Most likely you've got 2 cylinders not burning completely. Could be Wires/coil/coil wiring/icm
Start with your wiring.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Thanks. I checked all the wiring with a fine-toothed DMM ohmmeter, and everything seems okay. Unless I missed something, I guess that leaves either the ICM or a coil. Although my 95 OBD1 car didn't throw any codes, my guess is that an OBD2 car might. If the OBD2 could tell me which cyls were misfiring first thing in the morning, I might be able to determine whether the cause is ICM versus coils by swapping positions of the DIS coil packs. Can anyone tell me if OBD2 (e.g., 97 GTI) might provide that more detailed info (such as using Vag-Com)?


----------



## farfromugen (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (o2bad455)*

^ If you are running with no SAI, the ECU may still be compensating initial fuel trims on start up as if it was still there. The engine is supposed to run rich at first to warm up the cat to get it functioning quicker. Without the SAI to pump in fresh air, you will have a rich condition upon start up. Just something to keep in mind.


----------



## Das Borgen (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: (farfromugen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *farfromugen* »_^ If you are running with no SAI, the ECU may still be compensating initial fuel trims on start up as if it was still there. The engine is supposed to run rich at first to warm up the cat to get it functioning quicker. Without the SAI to pump in fresh air, you will have a rich condition upon start up. Just something to keep in mind.

smart answer, I forgot about that. 
That is in fact, true what farfrommugen said


----------



## JarrettJettaVR6 (Jul 10, 2005)

whew! just got done with my 50 pages of reading over the past few days.....first off thanks for all of you for these postings, help, and keeping this unblackholed
attention cubix, we spoke for a few minutes on the phone the other day, so i would appreciate it if you took a look at each questions specifically expanding on what we talked about
that being said, any help is welcome
also in advance, i'll dig deeper if i need to find sn's and please don't bother me if you think i have a stupid question
as for questions:
1. any updates on the 1.8t icm?
2. any updates on the guy with the carbon cover for the lower portion of the l-bracket? i've thought that this would be a substantial effort to prevent issues from weathering...even though it seems most failures are vibrating or wiring errors
3. other than the two i've seen in the past 15 pages or so with the msd 8870 base, anybody else doing this? can we get a solid detailed answer on how the wiring differs from the 8224 alone? the height is not a clearance issue, correct?
4. the tool from fourseasons...is this for all vr6 wires to replace the plastic piece of junk or just for the msd conversion wire kit?
5. should i wire all this up and have issues, how do you tell what cylinders are misfiring? is a code reader necessary?
6. there is plenty of talk about crimping on the msd gm ends to vr6 wires....can this be done vis versa..say have gm msd wires and attach the metal spark plug ends? or can this not be done?
7. what is the brand of wire used in the fourseason conversion of wires...are they oem wires, msd wires, other? are they msd ends, standard gm ends, other?
8. has anybody relocated the icm elsewhere and run long harnessed wiring to the coils?
9. i currently have issues driving in the rain with misses....i'm going to be installing a brand new vw built longblock....assuming plenty of hiccups with the install to work out and a lot on my plate...i feel that i may want to buy a brand new coilpack...make sure my install goes well...then mod from there with the new icm
that being the most expensive route, what do you guys think of the cheam coilpacks from non oem companies for my particular use? are the coils the cheap part and icm the same? would it hurt to try the new engine on my pack that gives me trouble now in the rain? should i start with that icm? should i start with gm oem coils, and if all works well than go msd? should i go expensive, know it will work, new oem coilpack, see if swap runs well, then mod new icm for msd?
10. last question, i know the resistor talk has been beat to death, but the most promising post i read on the resisitor topic mentioned that the factory coilpack had a 1.4 measured resistance...and that a .7 ohm resistor was necessary to math the current required for the msd coils....has this been expanded upon? does anybody know anything further on this? no resistor in effect provides too much current to the coils, what would be the downside to providing too much current to the msd coils? obviously it's been done successfully but the question still applies
i've seen the variable resistor that ranges from .7 to something with heat, and that seems to work however, assuming it gets hot and stays hot quickly, the resistance is never near the cold .7 mark calculated by the guy quite a few pages back
with not much known, and if not much more comes from this it seems that no resistor has been the common route from the past days of reading
once again i've read all 50 pages in the past few days and doing as much research and question asking as possible...so thanks for all of your help


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: (JarrettJettaVR6)*

I will answer a few of the items regarding the items we sell.

#4 The tool is made for the VW type spark plug end ( replaces the plastic tool with a metal version).

#7 Our wire set's use a German end on the spark plug side ( either Beru or Bremi ) they are 8MM ( 1MM larger than the OE wires). For the coil end its a after market GM style boot for use the MSD pin type coil connection. 100% Silicone Outer Jacket W/ Copper wire.
If you are going to try #6 leave the spark plug ends alone. We can sell the GM boot with fitting that you can crimp on your old set of wires.


----------



## JarrettJettaVR6 (Jul 10, 2005)

*Re: (FourSeasonTuning.com)*

thanks for the quick reply..i was hoping you'd be the one to answer those few. The only reason for #6 would be to use larger wires than stock or at 8mm...say maybe 10mm...That being said, it isn't necessary at this point and may never be, but just wanted a thorough understanding of how that end of the wire works. Definitely would like the metal end and leaning towards your wires at this point


----------



## vwmk2vr6s (Aug 19, 2007)

*Re: (JarrettJettaVR6)*

Got my kit.


----------



## Das Borgen (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: (vwmk2vr6s)*

where u got the ignition wires from
???


----------



## xxxfattonyxxx (Oct 25, 2003)

*Re: (Das Borgen)*

I was just trying to find my old post to figure out what I gaped my plugs to, just found it on page 1







Thanks Cubix


----------



## 2doorV6 (Jan 29, 2003)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

great thread http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (xxxfattonyxxx)*


_Quote, originally posted by *xxxfattonyxxx* »_I was just trying to find my old post to figure out what I gaped my plugs to, just found it on page 1







Thanks Cubix









Yea I totally don't have a vr anymore and there's a hole in my soul...
We'll meet again soon......


----------



## pubahs (Apr 2, 2002)

Just an update - got my car running solid now and the coils are holding up well. Idles very smooth, and no issues whatsoever. 
Very pleased with this mod and always recommend others to do it on their VRs.
Keep this one going!


----------



## atoson (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: (pubahs)*

subs


----------



## IN-FLT (Mar 22, 2003)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_








Yea I totally don't have a vr anymore and there's a hole in my soul...
We'll meet again soon......

me too brotha


----------



## euro16v (Dec 12, 1999)

*Re: (JarrettJettaVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JarrettJettaVR6* »_
as for questions:
1. any updates on the 1.8t icm?


I still have the 1.8T ICM setup in my garage, my project has encountered many delays and and been on hold for the past 6 months now. My project is part of a MK2 VR6 swap that ran into problems when the bolts holding in the rear axle broke and I got married last month so the past 6 months I have had 0 time to work on the project. The plan is to get back into it here in the next 4-6 weeks. So hopefully I get a good chance to test out the 1.8T modules in June or July. I'll definitely post here as soon as I get any solid results. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## JarrettJettaVR6 (Jul 10, 2005)

*Re: (euro16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *euro16v* »_
I still have the 1.8T ICM setup in my garage, my project has encountered many delays and and been on hold for the past 6 months now. My project is part of a MK2 VR6 swap that ran into problems when the bolts holding in the rear axle broke and I got married last month so the past 6 months I have had 0 time to work on the project. The plan is to get back into it here in the next 4-6 weeks. So hopefully I get a good chance to test out the 1.8T modules in June or July. I'll definitely post here as soon as I get any solid results. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

thanks a lot man!


----------



## jettavr6dubbin (Mar 2, 2008)

Alright I bought the coilpack alternative last summer but ran out of time before i went to school to put it in so i was doing it today and i ran into a problem that i was hoping someone on here could help me with.
when i go to start my car all that happens is the starter will keep firing without the engine turning over and starting up. im pretty sure the icm is good because the coil pack was good when i took it apart. 
p.s. - sorry if this has been covered somewhere in these 50 pages, i just simply dont have enough time to read them all
thanks for the help!


----------



## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

make sure the plug to the icm is plugged in, check your wiring, and make sure you have the wires to the right plugs


----------



## jtaulborg (Jan 7, 2009)

*Bottle Fed Passat on MSD*

So I've been doing small projects in my car for some time now...and the next two projects consist of removing the A/C System and the MSD Setup...
ALL PARTS are on order..so just waiting t start.

As for What I got fr the Project:
(3 qty) MSD Ignition COIL INTERFACE 
Part No. 8870
(3 qty) MSD Ignition COIL GM HEI 2 Tower
Part No. 8224
(1 qty) MSD Ignition SUPER CONDUCTOR WIRE 
Part No. 31199
I plan on Measuring the wires and everyting and providing a Detailed report of everything I do...Hopefully to give a grasp on anyone else who is new into the project....
As for my Specs:
1997 VW Passat GLX 2.8L VR6
~Stock Internals
~Airbox Removed, added Short ram Intake with K&N Filter
~No Coolant Lines to Throttle Body (Throttle Body Capped Off)
~No Heater Core
~Flex Upper Radiator Hose - Straight from Radiator to Thermo Housing
~Heater Hoses Replaced with ONE Line (NO Neater Core) and Tees off to Coolant Reservoir
~No Rear O2 Sensor, Only Front - Wideband with AEM Wideband Sensor
~NOS 100hp Shot, Dry with Rev Control and WOT Switch, No button, Only Arm Switch
~ AEM Guages (Oil Pressure, Fuel Pressure, Voltage, Vacuum/Pressure, Wideband A/F, 5" TACH, MSD DashHawk)
SOo...Pretty Much STOCK..lol

Updates with Pics Coming soon!


----------



## Das Borgen (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: Bottle Fed Passat on MSD (jtaulborg)*

come down to columbus and we can compare our setups


----------



## jtaulborg (Jan 7, 2009)

*Re: Bottle Fed Passat on MSD (Das Borgen)*

As soon as it is Done...Definite.....Where abouts in Columbus?


----------



## Das Borgen (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: Bottle Fed Passat on MSD (jtaulborg)*

it s in my profile (see under my name on the left here)


----------



## Do Werk (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Bottle Fed Passat on MSD (Das Borgen)*

Hey guys. I tried this and so far have been unsuccessful....
My car will just crank but no spark.
I'm getting fuel, I'm getting the 12v signal on the right pole on the ICM and everything. Take a look at my wiring...Let me know if I'm doing something stupid wrong..


----------



## ConverseOnFire (Feb 6, 2004)

*Re: Bottle Fed Passat on MSD (Do Werk)*

It looks like it might be hopping over and grounding somewhere. Heatshrink those connections and then resealant them.


----------



## Do Werk (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Bottle Fed Passat on MSD (ConverseOnFire)*

Could the fact that I used JBweld cause that? Should I get rid of all that and use an epoxy instead?


----------



## kraftaroni (Feb 1, 2005)

Yea, I'm almost positive JB-WELD is conductive.... You def- have a short.


----------



## Do Werk (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: (kraftaroni)*

Weak. I saw some people were soldering the connections to keep them in... I guess I'll dig all the crap out and start over. The rest of the wiring looks good though right?


----------



## ConverseOnFire (Feb 6, 2004)

*Re: (Do Werk)*

looks good to me.....not that i've done this yet.....
But I've read all 50 pages, so I feel like an expert!


----------



## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

use hot glue


----------



## jettavr6dubbin (Mar 2, 2008)

*Re: Bottle Fed Passat on MSD (Do Werk)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Do Werk* »_Hey guys. I tried this and so far have been unsuccessful....
My car will just crank but no spark.
I'm getting fuel, I'm getting the 12v signal on the right pole on the ICM and everything. Take a look at my wiring...Let me know if I'm doing something stupid wrong..


Mine is doing the same thing, but I thought it to be a bad ICM. Does that sound right as well? I mean if it was a bad ICM would it still run but do so roughly or would it do what ours are doing?


----------



## Do Werk (Feb 23, 2009)

Yeah so I redid the wiring. I didn't get the soldering stuff yet but I pretty much had everything temporarily assembled in my engine bay the correct way with nothing near eachother all sitting on my plastic intake manifold...
Now my car sounds like a toy machine gun and my gauges dim.....so I'm pretty sure I blew an something..... ignition switch? I checked the fuse box and the fuse that blew before was fine..

Any ideas?



_Modified by Do Werk at 6:08 PM 6-3-2009_


----------



## jtaulborg (Jan 7, 2009)

*Re: (Do Werk)*

Sounds like a toy chine gun huh??? I would say that you have cylinders that are not firing.....double check your wires and how they are set up...and of course..there is always the chance to ended the life of your ICM....check the voltage coming from each Pole on the ICM...see what it says


----------



## Do Werk (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: (jtaulborg)*

More like not firing on any cylinders..
I think my battery might just be dead. I've tried to start it so many times over the past two weeks haha. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 
I'm going to try my friends battery and see if that helps any.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Do Werk)*

Yea I would say battery died before the ign switch died
Though I did blow my switch during the project, but that was because I tried to do an ECU test


----------



## jtaulborg (Jan 7, 2009)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Sooo.....here is the "Prebuild" of my MSD Coilpack Setup...
3 MSD 8870 Interfaces
3 MSD 8224 Coilpacks
and an ICM From a 1988 Buick LeSabre (Good Mount to make your own bracket)

























and the Finished Setup Ready to go in:


































_Modified by jtaulborg at 11:36 AM 6-4-2009_


----------



## audisnapr (Jul 31, 2004)

posting just to let ppl know that I've beaten the piss out of the coils a few times now they haven't skipped a beat.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (audisnapr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *audisnapr* »_posting just to let ppl know that I've beaten the piss out of the coils a few times now they haven't skipped a beat.
   



sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet


----------



## LC5P_GLX (Jul 4, 2001)

*Re: (Cubix)*

no way? this thread is _still kickin' around?_ 
NICE!


----------



## Das Borgen (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: (LC5P_GLX)*

that's what happens when you're legit


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Das Borgen)*

If you add up the views from this thread, and the last 3 threads that were black holed, it's the most viewed thread on the tex.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Cubix)*

I think that deserves a sticky finally.
We have support from 2 advertisers (Fourseasons and Gruven) and tons of users.
sticky!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Do Werk (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Okay so I tore apart EVERYTHNG and pretty much started from scratch again. I scraped and sanded the bracket then sprayed it with plasti dip. It came out great. Then I wired everything together using female spade connectors and heat shrink tube and heres a picture..








Used my friends battery because mine was dead. Set it to "ON" for a few minutes then tried to start it.... It just cranks and nothing....... 
There are no fuses blown at all. 
Still getting 12v from the harness and after the ICM.... wtf could it be? I even took the resistor out since it has no purpose and same thing. UGH!


----------



## Dutchsider (Apr 27, 2006)

*Re: (Do Werk)*

I've tracked this thread for a while now. I've got a nice MSD setup that I love. Problem is, I'm trying to find an adapter plate to mount the coils to the stock aluminum coilpack base so that the coils sit flat in an oem manner. Is my only option to have a piece cut with a plasma cutter and get it powdercoated?


----------



## BiSiE (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: (Dutchsider)*

did mine yesterday, almost no result (well except for smooth running in the rain) 
took me about 6 hours which included making my own bracket.


Here are some more pics:
http://s16.photobucket.com/alb...=grid
Still gotta do some rounding of the corners, will scan a template for everyone to use after.

P.S. I have a question, whats the proper way to crimp the GM connectors? do you just strip it long, bend it back and squeeze the wire; Or do you strip it long and leave the wire in the connector so that it gets sandwiched between the coil terminal and the connector?
Also, I noticed one of the MSD coil bolt holes has a metal ring in it, like it wants to be grounded, is that required?


_Modified by BiSiE at 1:04 PM 6-11-2009_


----------



## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

bend the inner wire back under the terminal and crimp it


----------



## billiethebutcher (Sep 24, 2002)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

im almost rady to do mine!


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (FourSeasonTuning.com)*

Here is a kit for $120 shipped with the tool.








http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=576 








Red added as well with tool.
http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=602

Wires $105 shipped. 
Black
http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=606
Red
http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=600


----------



## Pf3il (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: Bottle Fed Passat on MSD (Do Werk)*

so i had been driving on my MSD setup for a year with the coilpacks hanging from the ignition wires (i know, i know). i ordered the gruven bracket last week and put it on yesterday. the car fired right up and i drove it to the grocery and back with no problems. 
the car started fine this morning, but mid-commute i started misfiring.







i pulled all the spade connectors and reseated them, and pulled all the connectors off the coils and reseated them. no dice. any ideas? i'm going to slice off the heatshrink tonight and check the soldering, but i'm baffled.


----------



## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

got to experience a bad icm/failed coil pack first hand on Friday afternoon. The center coil pack melted itself to bits and I lost 2 and 4 or whatever cylinders the center one handles. $300 at pep boys later and I made it home.
I am interested in returning this pack and using a early 1.8t ignition amplifier/icm and a set of grand national coils. I dont know if anyone has used that icm successfully yet however?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

Out of curiosity, where is everyone getting the impression that the 1.8t works to replace the vr ICM?
Theres a lot of talk for no show about it.
BTW i got some new OE wires if anyone needs em.


----------



## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

someone claimed it in here and it seems logical that it should work based on what he described.


----------



## panran (Aug 14, 2007)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

I just had to ask are you using a ballast resistor? I think my ICM is bad, but I am wired to resistor and no melt down, but on the same 3/4 middle coil. I used to run 
msd on my chevy's with a resistor, and sometimes the resistor would get very hot but not fry the coil.


----------



## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

the center coil of my stock coilpack melted down so I am leary to use mds coils is what im saying


----------



## Do Werk (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

Is there supposed to be a certain impedance reading on the msds? Like if you use a multimeter. Let me know. I am going to be testing everything again on my set up as I was never able to get it to work.


----------



## farfromugen (Dec 6, 2001)

*Re: (Do Werk)*

Resistance on the MSD is primary .35 ohms, secondary 7.8k ohms, however, IIRC the measured resistance from the terminal is roughly .7 ohms.


----------



## Pf3il (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: (farfromugen)*

forgive me for not reading all 50 pages, but what is the consensus on plugs and wires to run with this setup? cheap autozone stuff ok? OEM stuff recommended? running mostly stock with C2 NA chip.


----------



## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

seems like people run 7ish heat range single electrode copper plugs


----------



## Pf3il (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

and for wires? are there any generic wires available at autozone that have the right spark plug connectors?


----------



## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

no, four seasons sells a very nice set for 100ish
if you want to go another route, you can buy the ends and a universal crimper for less than 50 bucks


----------



## Pf3il (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

i thought this whole thing was supposed to be less expensive than the OEM setup.
bough a set of universal wires, and now see the reason for the metal sleeves on vr6-specific wires. any tricks for getting a set of regular wires on there without pulling the manifold?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Pf3il)*

2 zip ties around the neck to make something for the OE tool to catch on to


----------



## Pf3il (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: (Cubix)*

brilliant! why didn't i think of that?


----------



## Do Werk (Feb 23, 2009)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *farfromugen* »_Resistance on the MSD is primary .35 ohms, secondary 7.8k ohms, however, IIRC the measured resistance from the terminal is roughly .7 ohms.



Thanks. And if the coils went because of a grounding issue would that reading be different? less?


----------



## Pf3il (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (Do Werk)*

can an ICM fail on one lead only? i don't get any spark at cylinders 3 and 4. i swapped the packs around and still no dice. i didn't try different wires (it's possible that i crimped them poorly) but i did all 6 wires the same way so i'm leaning towards the ICM.


----------



## SGelshawno (Apr 10, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (Pf3il)*

my coilpack just failed and im jb welding it right now. But ive been shopping around for coilpacks and i just found a site that sells them for 100 bucks for a 12v vr


----------



## panran (Aug 14, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (SGelshawno)*

$100. bucks? can you let me know the place. my icm is bad and I have to buy the coilpack.


----------



## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

ebay 
deutsche parts for like 125


----------



## Do Werk (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*

Make sure it is the right one for your car. Normally the cheaper ones like that are for the obd2 mk3s/b4 passats. The coilpack itself will work but the connector from the ICM to the wiring harness is different for the mk4s If you rip off the plastic on the connector on the ICM part it should still work but then it'll be all ugly and broken.


----------



## clunkyVR6 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Failed Setup?*

After almost 200,000kms my MSD setup appears to have failed. I haven't torn into it yet to diagnose the problem, but wondered if anyone else has had a similar failure:
The car started running really rough and blowing smoke that smelled like my catalytic converter was shot for a couple of minutes, then ran and smelled perfectly fine for the 10 minute drive home. Once I got home I checked all the major obvious stuff over and all looked good. I started the car to go for a quick test drive, got about a kilometer away from home and the engine completely died. No indicators on the dash, just nothing. The engine turns over and over but doesn't even attempt to start. There is no spark on at least one of my coils (the only one I've checked so far).
I'll be working on it over the next couple of days. Any advice on where I should start? Should I just replace the coils and see what happens?... the existing ones certainly don't owe me anything after so many kms of reliable driving.


----------



## SGelshawno (Apr 10, 2009)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_ebay 
deutsche parts for like 125 

no not ebay lol 
http://1stvwparts.com/
it first says 164 but then drops to 99 bucks


----------



## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

*Re: Failed Setup? (clunkyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *clunkyVR6* »_After almost 200,000kms my MSD setup appears to have failed. I haven't torn into it yet to diagnose the problem, but wondered if anyone else has had a similar failure:
The car started running really rough and blowing smoke that smelled like my catalytic converter was shot for a couple of minutes, then ran and smelled perfectly fine for the 10 minute drive home. Once I got home I checked all the major obvious stuff over and all looked good. I started the car to go for a quick test drive, got about a kilometer away from home and the engine completely died. No indicators on the dash, just nothing. The engine turns over and over but doesn't even attempt to start. There is no spark on at least one of my coils (the only one I've checked so far).
I'll be working on it over the next couple of days. Any advice on where I should start? Should I just replace the coils and see what happens?... the existing ones certainly don't owe me anything after so many kms of reliable driving.


its probably the icm it could have killed your coils though


----------



## stealthmk3 (Nov 30, 2007)

Picked up some free coils so i can get rid of those crappy oem units...








Got a free bracket as well that just needs a few more holes in it and started mocking it up...


----------



## tacothesurerocco (Oct 23, 2007)

*Re: (stealthmk3)*

hey robert are those msd? they look like them but painted black?


----------



## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

those are regular gm coils


----------



## stealthmk3 (Nov 30, 2007)

*Re: (chrisbmx68)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisbmx68* »_those are regular gm coils 

correct, late model chevy minivan.


----------



## Pf3il (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: (stealthmk3)*

for the record, a new (used) ICM fixed my problem. pulls strong with the BKR5E's gapped to ~.032 and the street fire (made by MSD) cut & crimp wires. i used the metal sleeves off my old plug wires and put them on the new wires. works a treat putting them on, taking them off you have to yank the wire though. no biggie, the kit was for an 8-cylinder so i have 2 spare wires. total cost: $70 including the ICM.










_Modified by Pf3il at 9:21 PM 7-1-2009_


----------



## clunkyVR6 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: (Pf3il)*

Pf3il, where did you get an ICM for less than $70? Are there more where that one came from?


----------



## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (clunkyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *clunkyVR6* »_Pf3il, where did you get an ICM for less than $70? Are there more where that one came from?

looks like he bought a used coilpack from someone.
this mod still is tough for me to stomach as it isnt much cheaper than a stock setup and the stock setup will support over 600 wheel HP.
i do see the support for this though. replacing only parts of the coilpack later is nice.
i guess if i could get a 100% functional setup going before i took my car apart, it would be cool to do.
i just dont want to pull my car apart only to mess with coilpacks, resistors, and such for days to get it working right.


----------



## stealthmk3 (Nov 30, 2007)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*

yea, the reason im doing it is because im tired of replacing those crappy ones that came with my car. Theyre just poorly made and allways crack, id rather do this setup and have a more reliable setup and after youve done it, replacing parts is much cheaper/easier. Just go to the junkyard and strap a new coil on. Plus, its personally much better looking.


----------



## billiethebutcher (Sep 24, 2002)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jhayesvw* »_
looks like he bought a used coilpack from someone.
this mod still is tough for me to stomach as it isnt much cheaper than a stock setup and the stock setup will support over 600 wheel HP.
i do see the support for this though. replacing only parts of the coilpack later is nice.
i guess if i could get a 100% functional setup going before i took my car apart, it would be cool to do.
i just dont want to pull my car apart only to mess with coilpacks, resistors, and such for days to get it working right.

jeremy sack up!








im gonna put one together, ill let you know how it works. good ill call, bad ill call










_Quote, originally posted by *stealthmk3* »_yea, the reason im doing it is its personally much better looking.

there stealth i fixed it








the only reason im doing mine


----------



## Werked (Jun 13, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

The only way a different icm will work is by amplifying the small signal from the ecm enough to trigger the "new" icm. Do that and you can use whatever 3 channel icm you want.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Werked)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Werked* »_The only way a different icm will work is by amplifying the small signal from the ecm enough to trigger the "new" icm. Do that and you can use whatever 3 channel icm you want.

Actually 'signal strength' as you are referring, has nothing to do with it. As explained many pages ago, the VR6 ICM works differently then other ICMs, where the positive is always applied and the signal closes the negative contacts. Further, the duration of the signal, v/amps of the pos line, and several other factors all come in to play when setting off the ignition spark. Therefore, you can't simply 'amplify' the signal and stick in any ICM.
If you could, we woulda done it a long time ago.


----------



## clunkyVR6 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: (SGelshawno)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SGelshawno* »_
no not ebay lol 
http://1stvwparts.com/
it first says 164 but then drops to 99 bucks


I tried to order the "coil" from 1stvwparts.com and it did show as $99 in my cart, however I got this email from 1stvwparts this morning:
"According to the VIN provided, the incorrect ignition coil was ordered. The correct item for your car is $432.00. Please let us know what you would like us to do with the order. Thanks..."
The coil that I tried to order was for a 2001 GTI 2.8L 12V, which is what my car is. Has anyone else with a MK4 12V ordered this $99 coil and got what they expected?








If not, does anyone have a used ICM kicking around for sale?


----------



## vaporado (Aug 14, 2005)

*Re: (vwvr6-31)*

^you might have a better chance of selling the setup in the classifieds


----------



## vwvr6-31 (Mar 27, 2009)

*Re: (vaporado)*

Thanks didn't even look for a classified section.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (vwvr6-31)*

Please delete that original post, this is not a classified thread.


----------



## clunkyVR6 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: (clunkyVR6)*

Begrudgingly I just bought a new coilpack on ebay for $215. What happens if one or more of my MSD coils is/are bad and I plug them into my brand new ($215!!!) ICM?
Is there a way to test the MSD coils? I searched the forum for such a procedure but didn't find anything. None of my coils are cracked, but I have no idea if they are still good.
I hate to say it, but I'm considering reverting to stock to get the GTI on the road again.


----------



## Pf3il (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: (clunkyVR6)*

yeah, i bought a working coilpack off a friend for $20.


----------



## clunkyVR6 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: (clunkyVR6)*

Begrudgingly I just bought a new coilpack on ebay for $215. What happens if one or more of my MSD coils is/are bad and I plug them into my brand new ($215!!!) ICM?
Is there a way to test the MSD coils? I searched the forum for such a procedure but didn't find anything. None of my coils are cracked, but I have no idea if they are still good.
I hate to say it, but I'm considering reverting to stock to get the GTI on the road again.


----------



## clunkyVR6 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: (clunkyVR6)*

Weird, I didn't know that refreshing my browser could repost a post from days ago... that had already been responded to


----------



## John_mk3 vr6 (Jan 16, 2009)

*Re: (clunkyVR6)*

sweet setup


----------



## Werked (Jun 13, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Been running fine for a while now. I have pretty much confirmed the huco/vw 3ch icm works as long as you amplify the ecm outputs to it. Just have to finalize packaging. All the icm does is on-off. It's a swicth. Thats all. Any/all dwell,timing changes are done at the ecm. http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif 


_Modified by Werked at 2:36 AM 7-11-2009_


----------



## Do Werk (Feb 23, 2009)

*FV-QR*

Hey guys.. does anyone want to experiment using this... http://www.034motorsport.com/p...d=278
It's a 6 cylinder coilpack from 034 motorsports. It has a 4 pin connector without a ground...so would we need to ground it from the 5 prong connector? I'm not sure but this could be another cheaper solution than OEM


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (Werked)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Werked* »_Been running fine for a while now. I have pretty much confirmed the huco/vw 3ch icm works as long as you amplify the ecm outputs to it. Just have to finalize packaging. All the icm does is on-off. It's a swicth. Thats all. Any/all dwell,timing changes are done at the ecm. 

have you actually run it successfully on a car? I goofed around with this for a while with various off the shelf icm's, and even a few of my own design and wasn't able to get anything to work on the car. everything I triedi worked on the bench, but stick it on the car and nothing happens. I'm not an electronics wiz, but it seemed like there was something we were missing. on paper it looks really simple in concept though.


----------



## panran (Aug 14, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Do Werk)*

FAR OUT! I'm glad to see some other brothers, working to figure this ICM replacement to workout. I racked my brain for several months, Finally gave in and bought a HUCO coilpack around $200. just for the ICM, but I know one day WE will figure this out. Power in #


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Werked)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Werked* »_Been running fine for a while now. I have pretty much confirmed the huco/vw 3ch icm works as long as you amplify the ecm outputs to it. Just have to finalize packaging. All the icm does is on-off. It's a swicth. Thats all. Any/all dwell,timing changes are done at the ecm. 

Pretty much confirmed meaning what?
Have you run it?
Not the first time some ones 'pretty much confirmed' something
As they say on the 'tex
Pics or GTFO


----------



## clunkyVR6 (Apr 14, 2004)

*New coilpack and wires didn't fix it*

I just installed a new coilpack and a new set of OEM wires thinking that the reason my car wasn't running was due to a bad ICM with my MSD setup (no 12V on the power pin).
Unfortunately the coilpack and wires didn't fix the problem. It just turns over forever. The plugs look ok, but they are not wet with fuel like I would expect them to be. Also, after about 10 seconds of turning the engine over, the LED display says "STOP" and the oil can light starts flashing.
Has anyone seen this before?


----------



## Werked (Jun 13, 2007)

*Re: (Cubix)*

I've been running it for a month now. It works. End of story.


----------



## Slayer (Aug 8, 2000)

*Re: (Werked)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Werked* »_I've been running it for a month now. It works. End of story.









sweet! what did you use to amplifiy the signal to the icm?


----------



## Werked (Jun 13, 2007)

*Re: (Slayer)*

I used a small signal transistor for each channel. I plan to make a few of these at a later date but for right now i'm in full out test mode. I want to be sure this is it. I was working on it whenever i could but just been very busy. Glad it's all good though.


----------



## tacothesurerocco (Oct 23, 2007)

*Re: (Werked)*

All done with my setup. Thought I would let you guys see it. I love it. running the cheap ngk plugs at .050 










_Modified by tacothesurerocco at 1:02 PM 7-19-2009_


----------



## kevwithoutacorrado (Jun 9, 2000)

*Re: (Werked)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Werked* »_I used a small signal transistor for each channel. I plan to make a few of these at a later date but for right now i'm in full out test mode. I want to be sure this is it. I was working on it whenever i could but just been very busy. Glad it's all good though.

pics, diagrams, and part numbers or no way.


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (kevwithoutacorrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kevwithoutacorrado* »_
pics, diagrams, and part numbers or no way.

It's entirely possible. The stock coilpack needs a 5v trigger, you ground the signal to start the coil charge, and going high will fire. There are quite a few other ignitiers that work this way, including earlier VW modules (7 pin ignition amplifier, and the 9A/ABA/VR6 single coil Motronic igniter). 
To use an inverted amplifier (high to charge, ground to trigger) you would just need to use an inverting transistor. One would actually have to scope the coil dwell though to make sure that it's being held at high rpm. 
One of the caveats of doing things this way is that even if you're triggering at the right time at low rpm, if you've managed to do something half backwards (right trigger time but on the wrong signal edge) you can have problems as the revs rise including timing offset and jitter. 
With all the effort involved though, I don't see why people just don't get a new, stock, coilpack. Sure it's 'doomed to fail' but I'd like to see an MSD and prepackaged 'aftermarket' ignition module setup cheaper.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: New coilpack and wires didn't fix it (clunkyVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *clunkyVR6* »_I just installed a new coilpack and a new set of OEM wires thinking that the reason my car wasn't running was due to a bad ICM with my MSD setup (no 12V on the power pin).
Unfortunately the coilpack and wires didn't fix the problem. It just turns over forever. The plugs look ok, but they are not wet with fuel like I would expect them to be. Also, after about 10 seconds of turning the engine over, the LED display says "STOP" and the oil can light starts flashing.
Has anyone seen this before?

Maybe a bad ground or blown ECU fuse.
Check those and go point by point.
It's easy to blow a fuse with a wiring mishap.
Also could be an ign switch if you blew it bad enough


----------



## clunkyVR6 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: New coilpack and wires didn't fix it (Cubix)*

Thanks Cubix, I will check these tonight. I almost dragged it to the stealership this weekend but thankfully didn't get around to it.


----------



## clunkyVR6 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: New coilpack and wires didn't fix it (Cubix)*

Cubix you were right. One of the 15A ECM fuses (didn't realize there were so many) was blown. I replaced it with the heated seats 15A fuse and now the car kicks and struggles to run, but dies after about 2 seconds. If I give it some throttle, it revs up but then just dies in the same amount of time.
The only light that comes on in the instrument cluster is the check engine light. 
Also, after reconnecting the battery, my throttle body made a high-pitch squealing noise for about 5 minutes until I decided to try turning it over. 
I changed the plugs but it is still acting the same way. Have you seen this before?


_Modified by clunkyVR6 at 5:10 AM 7-22-2009_


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: New coilpack and wires didn't fix it (clunkyVR6)*

Did you replace the brake booster vacuum hose when you installed the setup?


----------



## clunkyVR6 (Apr 14, 2004)

*Re: New coilpack and wires didn't fix it (Cubix)*

I didn't disconnect the brake booster vacuum hose at any point during the conversion back to stock... but I'll check to make sure it isn't loose or cracked.
After running the MSDs for so long I hate the way the stock setup looks now... I don't think it'll be long before I'm running MSDs again. Once I get it running at all that is.


----------



## dpe415 (Nov 28, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Just bought the parts today and looking forward to doing this to my '01 Jetta GLX as soon as they arrive.
A couple of questions that I have:
1. When mounting the MSD 8224 coils to the Four Seasons Tuning bracket, do I need to be concerned about shorts and/or is there something I should apply between the coils & the bracket? I'm not using the MSD 8870 Coil Interfaces as I'm concerned about clearances under the hood (and they add an extra $110+ to the cost of the mod).
2. If I plan to use the spade connectors on to the MSD coils, should I be coating or encasing the completed connection in some sort of insulating material? I assume that moisture can potentially get inside these connections and cause a short, or is that wrong? What kind of insulator should I use?
Thanks to everyone for another great DIY! I'll post back with how it went.
DaveE


_Modified by dpe415 at 10:30 AM 7-28-2009_


----------



## CorvetteKillerVr6 (May 9, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (dpe415)*

#1
the coils ground them selves to your bracket with a bolt so nothing in between is required.

#2 use non-conductive RTV silicone to completely seal all the electrical connections as moisture WILL cause issues, and the RTV will help stop loose connections caused by vibration.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (CorvetteKillerVr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CorvetteKillerVr6* »_#1
the coils ground them selves to your bracket with a bolt so nothing in between is required.


The coils do *not* ground themselves to the bracket. If they do, it'll be an extremely quick way to burn a lot of things up.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## CorvetteKillerVr6 (May 9, 2007)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

i beg to differ. 
the trigger grounds do not touch the bracket but the body of the coil itself does.
i use the MSD 8224 and the have a bolt hole at the end of each one that doubles as a chassis ground for them, and ive had them bolted to there for over 2 years now going strong, no ballast resistor.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (CorvetteKillerVr6)*

Body of the coil is plastic.
The metal sleeve is not attached internally to the ground.
Refer to pages 1 through 12 for the information
The ICM provides constant +12. If you had the coil grounding out, then you would have an open circuit = BAD
Thats why the gruven bracket is powder coated for decreased/minimal/non-existant conductivity.
Whether or not the ICM uses the engine as a ground is another story, but the coils most definitely do not.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Do Werk)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Do Werk* »_Hey guys.. does anyone want to experiment using this... http://www.034motorsport.com/p...d=278
It's a 6 cylinder coilpack from 034 motorsports. It has a 4 pin connector without a ground...so would we need to ground it from the 5 prong connector? I'm not sure but this could be another cheaper solution than OEM

anybody?



_Modified by Boost112 at 10:03 AM 8-4-2009_


----------



## CorvetteKillerVr6 (May 9, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Boost112)*

i agreed with that.
i know the wired ground is not suppost to touch ANYTHING.
but where it bolts up, is a metal peice the bolt goes through, and it touches and i have no problem.
everything else wiring wise, MUST be insulated, RTV worked great for me, just try not to make a mess with it


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (CorvetteKillerVr6)*

Yea that metal sleeve is separated from the electronics. I'm not actually sure why it's there, other then reinforcement?
Maybe the GM cars that are actually meant to be used by this application have some use for it.
Shrug


----------



## dpe415 (Nov 28, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Cubix)*

Got mine up and running this morning. Man, is that smooth! I can't wait to see what kind of MPG improvements I get. It helps (or maybe hinders) having the little on-board computer thingy that come on the GLX. I always get to see how much gas I'm using and averages, too. I had been getting about 24 _tops_ over an average 3 hour trip. In the winter or against the wind it was usually 21-23.
Thanks for all the input, help & ideas everyone! I'll post photos soon. I gotta do a bit better job running the new plug wires (they don't fit in tracks on the Mk4 engine cover).


----------



## SoFarKingFast (Jul 9, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (CorvetteKillerVr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CorvetteKillerVr6* »_
but where it bolts up, is a metal peice the bolt goes through, and it touches and i have no problem.


The sleeve probably there so you can't crush the coil if you bolt it down too hard.


----------



## MarKist (Oct 7, 2008)

Damn just read all 53 pages nice work guys!
this should be "STICKY" fo sure


----------



## chrisbmx68 (Aug 14, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (SoFarKingFast)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SoFarKingFast* »_
The sleeve probably there so you can't crush the coil if you bolt it down too hard.

correct answer http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## dpe415 (Nov 28, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (dpe415)*

Well, just wanted to give a quick update on mine... Got it all done last week in preparation for a road trip to Yellowstone this week. We left _early_ last Saturday morning and it was raining. She ran beautifully right up until I hydroplaned into the center guard rail and totaled the car. Arg!






















Nothing like new coils, wires, plugs & tires to be wasted in less than three days. Thankfully insurance has covered us well. Now I'm out shopping for a new one!
As promised, here's some pics of the mod:
























And our wrecked VR6 for kicks (the front end was dinged up too; just not as bad):

























_Modified by dpe415 at 1:17 AM 8-14-2009_


_Modified by dpe415 at 1:20 AM 8-14-2009_


----------



## v.i.massive (Oct 16, 2006)

*FV-QR*

ouch nice coils sorry about the car


----------



## panofish (Apr 23, 2006)

*video of repair*

Video of coil pack repair...
http://panofish.net/ignition-coil-pack-repair/


----------



## kingslinky (Sep 13, 2007)

*FV-QR*

nice vid, it should be a sticky in the MK3 diy thread. 
the beru's have not been highly regarded for coilpacks, is the 'case cracking' their only flaw?


----------



## panofish (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (kingslinky)*

I have tried several makes of coil pack and they ALL suffer from a plastic case that will crack over time. I think heat from the engine is a major factor causing the cracking. As far as I know, the cracking plastic case, is the only problem.


----------



## oldskoolracer (Mar 6, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (Do Werk)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Do Werk* »_Hey guys.. does anyone want to experiment using this... http://www.034motorsport.com/p...d=278
It's a 6 cylinder coilpack from 034 motorsports. It has a 4 pin connector without a ground...so would we need to ground it from the 5 prong connector? I'm not sure but this could be another cheaper solution than OEM

Looks like a chrysler coil to me...90-92 chrysler and eagle... I didnt reaqd all 53 pages but, the few I did I didnt see too much on the ford coil... Literally took me (actual working time) about 3 hrs... I have pics, and another post on here if any one is interested... theres no resistors to be made, no custom brackets, and only 4 wires to plug in... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Get some wire ends off almost any ford from about 95 and up (4cyl rangers, 6 cyl everything, and some 8 cyl engines)...


----------



## ZachA (Mar 18, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (oldskoolracer)*

I've been wanting to do MSD for a while now and wondering what if anything has changed from cubix's first DIY. Is everyone running the same parts or have you found better solutions to problems? I look at this thread and I see a lot of blown coils, and at $50 a pop things could get $$$ fast. Also I only have one car so I kinda need it to work most of the time. Has anyone with the 1 ohm resister ever blew a coil? What do the 8870 - MSD Coil Interface do? I'm assuming mount the coils, whats the point of that? My car now is running with the stock coil pack just fine, so at least I would be starting off good. Thanks guys


----------



## SoFarKingFast (Jul 9, 2003)

Well, I blew my first ICM after about 2000 miles. It happened in the rain, so I'm sure it just shorted out. 
2000 miles was about a year and 2 months for me...so it is working well.
But, it still sucks that in order to replace the ICM, I had to buy a whole new coilpack! Now I have this brand new coilpack. Anyone able to sell theirs to someone who has cracked plastic?
Ryan


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (ZachA)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ZachA* »_I've been wanting to do MSD for a while now and wondering what if anything has changed from cubix's first DIY. Is everyone running the same parts or have you found better solutions to problems? 

Pretty much things have stayed the same, though set ups have evolved to become cleaner and neater

_Quote, originally posted by *ZachA* »_ look at this thread and I see a lot of blown coils, and at $50 a pop things could get $$$ fast. 

I think most of them were from me









_Quote, originally posted by *ZachA* »_ Also I only have one car so I kinda need it to work most of the time. Has anyone with the 1 ohm resister ever blew a coil? What do the 8870 - MSD Coil Interface do? I'm assuming mount the coils, whats the point of that? 

The 1 ohm resistor has shown no evidence of preventing coil damage due to faulty ICMs or wiring. The 8870 helps keep wiring nice and tight, but I've yet to hear of any actually benefits in this particular application.


----------



## DaBeeterEater (Aug 17, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (Cubix)*

i think a big problme with popping coils is not haveing good insulated wires, i kept blowing them and found that i had wires arching to ground,(not plug wires) I insulated the crap out of them and put rubber underneath the coils and i have not had a problem since and i was using it for about 12-15k miles ish,
turboed and n/a


----------



## ZachA (Mar 18, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR (DaBeeterEater)*

thanks guys. I was also wondering which size spade connector is the one that "clicks" into the coils?


----------



## barrysauce (Sep 17, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Cubix, Or anyone able to assist!
I have done the vr6 coilpack mod. The car does fire up but it will sputter and misfire. I changed to using female spade connectors on the icm from the ring connectors. No change...
The people that have done the mod and got it working there are 2 different ways to wire up the plug wires. This is what I have looked at in the pictures posted.
Does it matter how the coil packs are wired? As long as one side is power and one side is ground? It can't be mixed up correct? I have also seen people wiring it up different on the coil packs.
I have read about a lot of blown icm's.. My coilpack went out and a vw tech read the codes with his computer. Said my MAF is bad ($$$) and plugs 3/4 are misfiring. That can't be 2 bad nkg plugs at the same time. Thats too strange. It has to be the coil pack. Mine really wasn't cracked that I could see. So it HAS to be the icm? Make sense to you guys?
Please contact me for I have been trying to get a hold of you for some time now.
Please help me out... Thanks..


_Modified by barrysauce at 1:11 PM 9-5-2009_


----------



## panofish (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (barrysauce)*

For your oem coilpack... it is almost certainly cracks. The cracks don't have to be big for a spark to exit them. Mine were almost imperceptible. You can repair the oem coilpacks with epoxy...
http://panofish.net/ignition-coil-pack-repair/
I can't offer significant advice on a coilpack mod since I haven't done one. Just be absolutely sure everything including connectors are WELL insulated. Otherwise the a spark will jump to ground before it can get to your spark plug.


----------



## barrysauce (Sep 17, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (panofish)*

Thanks for responding!
Everything is very well insulated. I went back and used 1/4 female weatherproof disconnects. They come with heat-shrink already. I used those and lots of heat-shrink tubing to make sure no sparks where jumping.
I will have to put up some pics. Pics will get more people to look at it anyway.


----------



## barrysauce (Sep 17, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (barrysauce)*

I have tried everything except a new coil pack. It has to be a bad icm. Thats the only thing I can think about. More advice and tips would be helpful... Thanks


----------



## panofish (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (barrysauce)*

Another possibility is the spark plug wires. Are they old or new? Did you pull the wires off the plugs with the proper tool. If you pull them off incorrectly ... you can rupture the insulation near the boot and you can get shorts there. Just a thought.


----------



## barrysauce (Sep 17, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (panofish)*

Yah thanks man. I got the set from fourseason's. I got the wires and the special tool. Did that right. I pulled them off and checked. I just haven't checked the plugs though. But .. the car was running fine when the coil pack went out.
I have the wires for the # 15 all wrapped around one another though. Thats for the 3 of them. The wiring for it is correct I know it!! I need to buy a coil pack but just going to have to wait..
Thanks for the help..


----------



## ZachA (Mar 18, 2009)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_ so it's gotta be something thats gappable

Some questions...
I'm running Bosch Platinum+4 plugs, gappable or not? I don't think they are, would it be worth it to get gappable ones? And which ones are good?
The best way to make sure you don't burn up a ICM is to wrap/heatshrink the terminals coming out of the ICM, what do you guys use?
I going to use the 8870 interfaces, is there a wire diagram i didnt see?
thanks hopefully going to get this stuff together this weekend


----------



## ExtremeVR6 (Sep 6, 2001)

so after reading a thread on using a ford coilpack, I thought to take a look at this one... the question that's come up is ... why go through all this when the Ford coilpack is such an easier install? Is it for the benefit of a hotter spark? From what i'm understanding the MSD coils are fragile with reference to a faulty ICM (maybe any coil will be)... 
It's been mentioned here, but I think I'll ask anyways... when I got the ford coilpacks I didn't have the 7mm socket to take the pack right off of it's bracket, but instead took the whole mounting bracket... I understand that for this "GM" build the bracket is for an entirely different purpose, but what I'm wondering is if it's the heat from being directly up against the engine/head? Anyone simply tried relocating their stock coil to a cooler area? Since I've got a CAI, I don't have the stock airbox... which leaves a TON of room on the other side of the car... seems to me like you could even drill some holes and bolt the coilpack directly to the frame rail even... some zipties to keep the spark plug wires away from spinning parts and you're in business... I don't even think it's necessary to get different/longer plug wires, just switch em around a bit... 
lastly, in the ford coilpack thread there was a question/wish that someone would take a dwell reading on the coilpack and see how it compares to the stock coilpack... I assume that this would end up being the 10k volts<?> vs 40k comparison? Has anyone done this comparison to know just what the differences are between the different coils?


----------



## Nevaeh_Speed (Jul 9, 2004)

It's cool to jimmy rig your stock coil if need be, but I think the ford coil idea is much better, plus easier to get, and much cheaper...


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (Nevaeh_Speed)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ZachA* »_
Some questions...
I'm running Bosch Platinum+4 plugs, gappable or not? I don't think they are, would it be worth it to get gappable ones? And which ones are good?



IIRC VR6+Bosch P +4 =








I used NGK's (the cheaper ones), Bob used $.35 (thats 35 cents, not .35 cents for those of you who work at verizon) plugs and they worked fine


_Quote, originally posted by *ZachA* »_
The best way to make sure you don't burn up a ICM is to wrap/heatshrink the terminals coming out of the ICM, what do you guys use?
I going to use the 8870 interfaces, is there a wire diagram i didnt see?


No one really knows why the ICM's are blowing, mostly it's thought to be internal damage.
I used the regular heatsink @ radioshack

I didn't have any diagrams of the 8870, maybe someone can post one up and I'll stick it to the front page


----------



## ZachA (Mar 18, 2009)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_
I used the regular heatsink @ radioshack


I read some where in this thread that people thought icms were burning up becasue of gounding issues, thats why i posted it. 
Do you mean this tube of silicone? http://www.radioshack.com/prod...02858


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (ZachA)*

I meant heatshrink tubing
sorry at work
it may have been a grounding issue as well, too many variables behind it


----------



## ZachA (Mar 18, 2009)

*Re: (Cubix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_I meant heatshrink tubing
sorry at work


ok thats what i meant.


----------



## ZachA (Mar 18, 2009)

*Re: (ZachA)*




























_Modified by ZachA at 8:52 AM 9-18-2009_


----------



## ZachA (Mar 18, 2009)

*Re: (ZachA)*

Installed MSD's thursday night. Now I have a problem. When i'm hard on the throttle over say 3k or 3.5krpm the engine bucks. Also in second gear passed 4k hard on the throttle the engine just bogs out it wont rev any higher. I running msds with bosch Platinum+4 plugs, at stock gap. Any Ideas???
_Modified by ZachA at 12:17 AM 9-20-2009_


_Modified by ZachA at 7:27 PM 9-20-2009_


----------



## ZachA (Mar 18, 2009)

*Re: (ZachA)*

anyone got anything?


----------



## eurobred (Jun 10, 2005)

*Re: (ZachA)*

where are the ford coils at? everything just does the MSD thing?


----------



## vr6boyirl (Feb 21, 2006)

*Re: (ZachA)*

I had this problem also and reverted back to stock coilpack well over a year ago now and I was running ngk plugs 
AFAIK the 034 coilpack needs an OEM ICM to power it up 
I have heard a nissan skyline coilpack igniter will work with MSD coils and bypass the VW ICM but never got around to getting one


----------



## itb76 (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (panofish)*

I put the MSD coils in back in January of '08, and posted the results back then. Ran them until last July for over 28,000 miles with no issues. In a moment of weakness and bad diagnostics, I went back to a *brand new* stock coilpack, plugs, and wires, and the engine would miss every time it rained. After seven weeks/2,800 miles of that nonsense, I'm back to the MSD coils. No difference in fuel mileage, and the car is not discernably quicker, but besides running better in wet weather, the engine feels smoother and idles better. This compared to a brand new coilpack, with brand new Bosch wires.
No resistor in my install, used really heavy wire from Home Depot, and Right Stuff gasket maker to keep all the connections dry and electrically insulated. This is my daily driver; reliability is a must.
Looks like the Ford coilpacks are here...


_Modified by itb76 at 10:33 PM 9-23-2009_


----------



## supersonicvwtdi (Jul 10, 2008)

*help help help help help help help*

ok, 6 months ago i had a cylinder six misfire and i thought i just had a bad sparkplug so i go out and buy 6 of the fancy bosch platnim +4. when i replaced all 6 plugs i noticed i got another missfire on cyl 1. I double check the plugs and everything seams fine so i do the water test on my coilpack and noticed small sparks when the coil pack is soaked but instead of loosing power only when it rains i was loosing power constently.So the next thing I do is I epoxy my coilpack and that didnt help at all. so now i bought the msd 8224 coils and im kinda of afraid to install it because of the posts i been reading, about icm's being bad and blown coils. 
Is my icm bad already? because the epoxy should of fixed my coil packs sparking?right?
Where do i buy a good resistor?and what volt?
help please


----------



## supersonicvwtdi (Jul 10, 2008)

*Re: help help help help help help help (supersonicvwtdi)*

and i also would like to add that i have a 2000 mk4 vr6 and not a mk3 vr6.and i only heard that the mk3 had coilpack problems?


----------



## panofish (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: help help help help help help help (supersonicvwtdi)*

I can only speak to the coilpack epoxy solution.
It worked 100% perfect in my case. I've owned my VW since 98 and I gone through 4 coilpacks ... so I'm very familiar with the hesitation misfires (especially in the morning dew). My coilpack crack was almost imperceptible.
Did you carefully clean and epoxy all surfaces?
In my case I only had to epoxy the side of the coil pack where the terminals are located (see my video). In my experience the ICM NEVER goes bad (unless your playing with msd coilpacks and the like). I've had 4 coilpacks and all eventually showed cracks which caused misfires.
http://panofish.net/ignition-coil-pack-repair/


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: help help help help help help help (panofish)*

Somehow the stock coilpack can take much more abuse from the icm then when you add any other brand to it (GM, MSD, jeg, etc)


----------



## panran (Aug 14, 2007)

*Re: help help help help help help help (supersonicvwtdi)*

My guess would be the icm is bad. I did a msd change and it ran fine for a while, about 6-8 months, then my rack & pinion went out it was winter and sat for about 2 months (went back and forth, because they shipped some wrong parts). Anyhow after it I repaired the steering...my 3/4 was miss firing...maybe from sitting? So to get a icm I had to buy a new coil pack, and I figure I'll use it till it cracks...then put the msd back on. But I'm watching this subject....waiting for an alternative icm that works.


----------



## supersonicvwtdi (Jul 10, 2008)

*Re: help help help help help help help (Cubix)*

ok so if my icm is bad already and i install the msd coils then the coils will blow if i dont have a 1 ohm resistor? right?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: help help help help help help help (supersonicvwtdi)*

1 ohm resistor may or may not prevent it
probably not


----------



## supersonicvwtdi (Jul 10, 2008)

*Re: help help help help help help help (Cubix)*

i got a 1 ohm 10 watt resistor from radio shack. is dat going to be good enough? 
And did anyone try to figure out a method of checking the icm to see if its good or not?


----------



## xxxfattonyxxx (Oct 25, 2003)

*Re: help help help help help help help (supersonicvwtdi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *supersonicvwtdi* »_ok so if my icm is bad already and i install the msd coils then the coils will blow if i dont have a 1 ohm resistor? right?

I have lost 2 ICM's without losing a single coil (no resistor) so it's hard to tell


----------



## supersonicvwtdi (Jul 10, 2008)

*Re: help help help help help help help (xxxfattonyxxx)*

ok so what do u guys think i should do? should i just continue with the instalation and pray it works or shoul i get another coil pack?


----------



## supersonicvwtdi (Jul 10, 2008)

*Re: help help help help help help help (supersonicvwtdi)*

did anyone try to figure out a method of checking the icm to see if its good or not?
did anyone open one up when it went bad?


----------



## panran (Aug 14, 2007)

*Re: help help help help help help help (supersonicvwtdi)*

I tried....I would not again....pry it open a bunch of silicone....just destroyed whatever connection there was...like stepping on a daddy long leg spyder.


----------



## millerspcrepair (Mar 16, 2009)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Does This Method work or is it more of a headache


----------



## barrysauce (Sep 17, 2004)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (millerspcrepair)*

Update....
I got a brand new beru coil pack and the car fired right up. Warning to some people that have a bad coil pack and might have to buy a brand new one just to get the msd mod to work. Or getting very lucky and buying a used coil pack and getting that working. Either way it gets very expensive to do the mod.


----------



## veearesixxer (Jan 15, 2005)

Hey guys I think one of my coils took a sh*t, I'm runnnin the MSD's with no resistor. My car was idleing in the driveway then 2cyl just went out, both on the same coil. It's possible it could have shorted out but I'm not positive. Does this sound like the coil? Or something else goin on?


----------



## mikmot (Apr 21, 2008)

*Re: (veearesixxer)*

i tried using an automotive 1 ohm resistor from jegs on my turbo VR.
crazy misfire on all cylinders under full boost.
removed the resistor, the car runs perfect.


----------



## vr2jetta (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: (mikmot)*

I just finished mine a little while ago. I was wondering what kind of spark plugs are being used by you guys? I am still running stock replacement NGK 3 prong plugs, but was wondering if you guys had any success running different ones? Maybe a different heat range? The only other plugs I would consider using is a silver core plug but they cost big bucks. Any ideas?


----------



## xxxfattonyxxx (Oct 25, 2003)

*Re: (veearesixxer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *veearesixxer* »_Hey guys I think one of my coils took a sh*t, I'm runnnin the MSD's with no resistor. My car was idleing in the driveway then 2cyl just went out, both on the same coil. It's possible it could have shorted out but I'm not positive. Does this sound like the coil? Or something else goin on?

Could be the coil or your ICM. Check to see if there is power coming from the ICM to said coil. If not it's your ICM


----------



## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: (vr2jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr2jetta* »_










Hawtness. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## veearesixxer (Jan 15, 2005)

*Re: (xxxfattonyxxx)*

i will def check that, whats the best way?


----------



## piran21 (Jul 28, 2004)

*Re: (veearesixxer)*

Is it me or does the Ford coilpack conversion just seem easier and more problem-free?


----------



## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

*Re: (vr2jetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr2jetta* »_I just finished mine a little while ago. I was wondering what kind of spark plugs are being used by you guys? I am still running stock replacement NGK 3 prong plugs, but was wondering if you guys had any success running different ones? Maybe a different heat range? The only other plugs I would consider using is a silver core plug but they cost big bucks. Any ideas?









you should put a heatshield on that........you can use cheap 3923 sparkplugs about $2


----------



## vortexpert. (Sep 27, 2009)

*Re: (ricardo)*

figured i would bump this. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
almost done with mine


----------



## supersonicvwtdi (Jul 10, 2008)

*Re: help help help help help help help (supersonicvwtdi)*

ok I opend up my coil pack todaqy. And i found that there was a small amount of rust on the 1/6 coil and thats where I was having a misfire. So im preaty sure my icm is good and its only that coil that is bad. What u guys think???


----------



## 97golf3 (Dec 6, 2007)

*Re: help help help help help help help (supersonicvwtdi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *supersonicvwtdi* »_ok I opend up my coil pack todaqy. And i found that there was a small amount of rust on the 1/6 coil and thats where I was having a misfire. So im preaty sure my icm is good and its only that coil that is bad. What u guys think??? 


I had the same problem, coil 1/6 was misfiring in boost, and when I took it apart it was rusty. Did the JB weld mod to the stock coilpack, that didn't work. Now I followed this thread and did the MSD conversion, but I made the bracket myself and bought the coils seperate from an auto parts store, and a set of GM plug wires and crimped the ends onto my wires. All in all it was a pretty easy task! I've only been running it a day now but it works great. 13psi will spin tires at 100km/h .. Didn't do that before


----------



## supersonicvwtdi (Jul 10, 2008)

*Re: help help help help help help help (97golf3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *97golf3* »_

I had the same problem, coil 1/6 was misfiring in boost, and when I took it apart it was rusty. Did the JB weld mod to the stock coilpack, that didn't work. Now I followed this thread and did the MSD conversion, but I made the bracket myself and bought the coils seperate from an auto parts store, and a set of GM plug wires and crimped the ends onto my wires. All in all it was a pretty easy task! I've only been running it a day now but it works great. 13psi will spin tires at 100km/h .. Didn't do that before










Hell yea. thank you my man. I am doing the whole thing just like you just with out the boost.


----------



## supersonicvwtdi (Jul 10, 2008)

*Re: help help help help help help help (97golf3)*

What kind of metal r u using for your bracket??? cuz im using a thin peice of steel and idk if its strong enough since its easily bendable?


----------



## violentaesthete (Oct 27, 2008)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr2jetta* »_I just finished mine a little while ago. I was wondering what kind of spark plugs are being used by you guys? 



i run stock plugs gapped a bit bigger than stock spec because of the hotter spark this provides.


----------



## supersonicvwtdi (Jul 10, 2008)

*Re: help help help help help help help (supersonicvwtdi)*

ok i got my msd ignition in my car today and i triple checked everything but i still wasent able to start it up??? what is wrong?


----------



## vr2jetta (Dec 16, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (violentaesthete)*


_Quote, originally posted by *violentaesthete* »_

i run stock plugs gapped a bit bigger than stock spec because of the hotter spark this provides.

How do you gap them bigger? Arent you using the 3 prong NGK's? How would you go about measuring the gap? What gap are you running now?
I was thinking in that direction too but I havent taken the time to learn about spark gap and stuff like that, so please, enlighten me.


----------



## itschrisb (Jun 7, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (vr2jetta)*

i have a 95 jetta glx, the original motor was swapped out for a lower mileage vr from a 98 passat. The ecu is still the original one making it obd1. Will this conversion work? I think my coilpack is crack bc i have some bogging issue when its raining so i planned to buy a different one to do this conversion. Would i need an obd1 or obd2. I dont know much about this stuff always had 2.0.
Thanks


----------



## pubahs (Apr 2, 2002)

Need to shorten my wires now that I ditched the stock manifold. Also wanted to get some Moroso wire guides/holders but they are back ordered until December :S


----------



## sc_rufctr (Jun 28, 2007)

*Re: (pubahs)*

55 Pages on this one mod... no excuse not to do this.


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: (sc_rufctr)*

And thats if you're not counting the three threads prior to this one


----------



## ZachA (Mar 18, 2009)

*Re: (Cubix)*

Is it suppose to be like this? (meaning the electrode is not flush)








those are bosch 4 platnium plugs, running msd for maybe 1000 miles, what you think?


----------



## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

*Re: (ZachA)*

dont get +4 change plugs to coppers or OEM


----------



## pretzelogic (Nov 14, 2009)

*Re: (ricardo)*

So I swapped back to oem becasue I was getting 15mpg on msds with new gapped plugs







Maybe there was a short in the wiring becuase when i first put them on i was getting mid 20 mpgs.


----------



## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

*Re: (pretzelogic)*


_Quote, originally posted by *pretzelogic* »_So I swapped back to oem becasue I was getting 15mpg on msds with new gapped plugs







Maybe there was a short in the wiring becuase when i first put them on i was getting mid 20 mpgs. 

make sure you reset the computer.....when I changed the gap from .028 to .032 the car would not run right... reset the computer and it ran great with better MPG..


----------



## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

to the people running obd2..you guys can skip the hole coilpac and go with 6*single coils from vr6 24v..they have build in igniters and runs easy wasted spark on the 3 stock channels.


----------



## ghostling (May 27, 2003)

*Re: (VR6-GT42RS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6-GT42RS* »_to the people running obd2..you guys can skip the hole coilpac and go with 6*single coils from vr6 24v..they have build in igniters and runs easy wasted spark on the 3 stock channels.

Really, 
Are hyou saying I can get ride of my vr6 12v coil pack and go to a 24v type system with no ill effect other then not forking over 900 to the dealer every now and then?


----------



## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

*Re: (ghostling)*

im running it that way..you need to do the wireing but it is easy..you have the power you need from the stock wires allready. but im not sure if there is space for the stock intake manifold,but with sri,no problem.


_Modified by VR6-GT42RS at 2:42 AM 12-24-2009_


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*FV-QR*

Not sure you can do that on stock management. The 12v coilpack I fire by pulling the ICM to ground, the 24v coils I pullup to 5v to fire.


----------



## xxxfattonyxxx (Oct 25, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*

While installing my new manifold I found that the last time I lost my ICM 2 coils exploded. Never even noticed lol


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

Here is a kit for $120 shipped with the tool.








http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=576 








Red added as well with tool.
http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=602

Wires $105 shipped. 
Black
http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=606
Red
http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=600
*New Items for EDIS coil
Wire sets now available for Ford EDIS coils. 8MM with German spark plug end and clip type coil end.
Wire sets with and without removal tool.*








8MM Wire set for EDIS coil $110 Shipped Ground








8MM Wire set for EDIS coil W/ Tool $130 Shipped Ground 



_Modified by FourSeasonTuning.com at 11:00 PM 4-14-2010_


----------



## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (FourSeasonTuning.com)*

^^^ Great price considering you get the tool as well http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Let me present an answer to protecting & prolonging the life of your expensive coil pack:
During recent testing we witnessed a temperature drop of 62 degrees Fahrenheit between the timing chain cover and the mating surface of the coil pack.
















Works with both 12v and 24v VR6s. Price includes shipping within the U.S. and Canada.
Order: Coil Pack Spacer 

_Modified by [email protected] at 5:34 PM 1-23-2010_


_Modified by [email protected] at 4:35 PM 1-24-2010_


----------



## oldskoolracer (Mar 6, 2009)

*Re: (piran21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *piran21* »_Is it me or does the Ford coilpack conversion just seem easier and more problem-free?


It still seems that way to me.... Ive been running mine with the ford coil for about a year now, havnt had a single issue what so ever (knocks on wood).... MSD is now offering a performance EDIS coil too for about $80- $100 depending on were you get it..... PIC for KICKS....


----------



## mk3pete (Jan 16, 2010)

*Re: (oldskoolracer)*

just thought id share this in this thread
i made it trying to figure out why cylinders 3/4 wouldnt fire
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...23714


----------



## bogabogaboo! (Sep 22, 2009)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

got a quick question. i did the msd coilpack mod, when i put everything back together, i was attempting to start the car. after several attempts i decided to switch the cylinder banks so that the firing order was the opposite (where 1 was across from its normal postion and so on) im not really sure why i decided to do this but it seems like a very stupid decision now that i look back. anyways on my first attempt to crank the engine over it started to crank then stopped suddenly with a quite, sorta, bang. now i do not seem to have power to anything. although my dc outlet inside the car does. when i turn the key in the ignition no lights blink on the dash. the battery does have power, the coil packs are not getting anything. my question is what could have blown, a fuse or a relay or something?


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_^^^ Great price considering you get the tool as well http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Let me present an answer to protecting & prolonging the life of your expensive coil pack:
During recent testing we witnessed a temperature drop of 62 degrees Fahrenheit between the timing chain cover and the mating surface of the coil pack.
















Works with both 12v and 24v VR6s. Price includes shipping within the U.S. and Canada.
Order: Coil Pack Spacer 

_Modified by [email protected] at 5:34 PM 1-23-2010_

_Modified by [email protected] at 4:35 PM 1-24-2010_


Thats the same idea i had back when we started this!


----------



## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (Cubix)*

BTW; Hi everybody!
Yes I'm still alive, no haven't been around around lately, I'm now part of the 2.0T crowd, but haven't had too much time to go on the tex.
Still miss my vr6 though...


----------



## megaDan (Jul 11, 2007)

Got mine up and running!!!!
Bought it used, and the PO mislabeled two packs. After I had a nasty misfire, I came on here to check everything out and realized his middle coilpack was 3/6. Swapped wires and all is good. 
Gonna gap the plugs tomorrow I think. I'm tempted to gap them .005" per tank and see how it changes, but my driving isn't consistent enough. I think I'll push it straight to .047" or something and see how my mileage increases.
The car runs SOOOO much smoother. I know its not a placebo. I had a cracked coilpack, but it only misfired in the rain. But lately the motors been running just a hair rough with no loss in power so I kinda didn't do anything about it. As soon as I fired it up with the wires in the right places...wow. It purrs like a VR again all the way past 7k.
I. Love. This. Mod.

Thanx Cubix!!!!!!










_Modified by megaDan at 7:16 PM 2-19-2010_


----------



## edness503 (Feb 24, 2010)

hey i have been looking at this thread for days wanting to do it like real real bad because i think i have a prob already my car has a 420 code for my cat but my cat is brand new and its not the cheap one ive been told its running rough which it kinda is but there is no misfire code. i want to do this thread cause i was told i need a new coil any way but i dont know if my icm is bad. alot of people have been saying those are bad on here so any advise out there shold i try to pick up a new coil/icm at the salvage yard or just do the thread and risk it (i am broke already)


----------



## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

*Re: (edness503)*

now the Ford coilpack is easier !! wihtha 2003 ford windstar/mustang coilpack no need to change the wires


----------



## megaDan (Jul 11, 2007)

*Re: (ricardo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ricardo* »_now the Ford coilpack is easier !!

Doesn't look as good though








And are those coils as strong as the MSD ones? I'm looking forward to see what kind of MPG gains (if any) I can get from gapping my plugs.


----------



## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

*Re: (megaDan)*

I rather go for a stock look.. once you put the cover on you cant tell the difference and the MSD is going for $200-300 when all is said and done..
as far as strong goes.. I gaped my spark plugs at .032 and I get 6 mpg better than stock (my regular MPG) with the same spark plugs


----------



## GTIVRob6 (Jan 28, 2010)

*Re: (ricardo)*

someone want to make and sell me a kit?


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

I've now got this mod on an OBD2 car and I'm having some issues. Engine is randomly misfiring, particularly at 1500-2000 rpm and approaching redline. Minor bucking from standing starts. It seems much better around 3000 rpm. Anyone seen this before? No ignition-related codes yet. 
I'm using the 3 Accel coilpacks. Not sure if it might be an Accel vs. MSD issue or something else. Versus a good stock pack, top speed is off by about 15 mph (125 vs. 140), and fuel mileage is off by about 2-3 mpg (23 vs. 26). Already tried the second ICM from the good stock pack, but no difference.


----------



## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

*Re: (o2bad455)*

make sure you reset the computer


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (ricardo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ricardo* »_make sure you reset the computer 

Thanks for that reminder. I cleared codes using VAG-COM, but didn't actually disconnect the battery. Anyone know for sure if just clearing codes is sufficient or not?


----------



## dandy's vr6 (Oct 11, 2009)

so if i pay you could you make me one for my 98 vr6


----------



## Standbackimapro (Mar 8, 2010)

Can someone link me to a better wiring diagram for the msd setup? I just cant tell whats going on in those first pics


----------



## Yetti 1.8t (Feb 23, 2005)

*Re: (Standbackimapro)*

really really not trying to be a dick but if you can't figure this out by the first post alone you probably shouldn't attempt this. imo


----------



## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

*Re: (Yetti 1.8t)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Yetti 1.8t* »_really really not trying to be a dick but if you can't figure this out by the first post alone you probably shouldn't attempt this. imo

x2 and I suggest you do the ford coilpack , easier and waay cheaper to do... and its just as powerful as I mistakenly gapped by autolites 3923 to 0.046 and the car ran fine..


----------



## DG NEMESIS (Jan 18, 2008)

Im looking to purchase a Msd coilpaick setup for a Mk3 vr6 obd2 anyone willing to make me a kit or sell what they have ? pm me with details please


----------



## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

*FV-QR*

nice post


----------



## master.roly (Apr 14, 2010)

Could someone please tell me on what page of this really long thread I can find the ford coilpack diagram or how to do guide? Thanks in advance.


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: (oldskoolracer)*

Wire sets now available for Ford EDIS coils. 8MM with German spark plug end and clip type coil end.
Wire sets with and without removal tool.








8MM Wire set for EDIS coil $110 Shipped Ground








8MM Wire set for EDIS coil W/ Tool $130 Shipped Ground 


_Modified by FourSeasonTuning.com at 10:57 PM 4-14-2010_


----------



## VR6-GT42RS (Jun 4, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_Not sure you can do that on stock management. The 12v coilpack I fire by pulling the ICM to ground, the 24v coils I pullup to 5v to fire.

sounds strange to me.. i have done that..and it works.


----------



## stealthmk1 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (VR6-GT42RS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6-GT42RS* »_
sounds strange to me.. i have done that..and it works.

details/wiring schematics?


----------



## iMAHLON (Feb 14, 2009)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *Cubix* »_
*MSD Alternative* 
My personal choice for the replacement was using 3 MSD coils to replace the oem coil pack (NOT the icm)
Part numbers are
*For the full custom look*
*MSD 8224* Coil, dual post HEI used on GM models
*MSD 3311* HEI crimp ends
*MSD 31199* Custom 8 cyl wire set, these have straight plug boots
*For the new, much easier project*
*3xMSD 8224* Coil, dual post HEI used on GM models


--- What is the point of buying "MSD 3311 HEI crimp ends"?
Also...
How do you put on and remove the "MSD 31199 Custom 8 cyl wire set, these have straight plug boots"?


----------



## adamfujita (Jan 14, 2010)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (jhayesvw)*

there is a way to test your coil and icm before you install the. You use a dvom and a automotive oscilliscope, a local well known shop should have one.


----------



## g60manny (Feb 6, 2006)

*Re: VR6 coilpack atlernative (adamfujita)*

who here haves instale one of this


----------



## IHookItUuup (Aug 6, 2008)

Anyone else running the Ford EDIS coils with success?


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

ttt


----------



## Trict GTi (Oct 24, 2005)

i know someone has tried these but is there a diy for it?
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/40125/10002/-1?parentProductId=1167168


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

bump


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

http://www.fourseasontuning.com


----------



## 98ginster (Dec 20, 2005)

what exactly is the reason for the coil interface module? just easier install? I want to do this setup but dont want to spend the extra $120 for three of these.


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

As an update, my upgrade is now working great with 3 Accel DIS coilpacks. I was initially having low rpm issues, but removing the resistor helped and then removing the vaseline from the multi-pin connector solved my issue completely (apparently the melting point of the vaseline was too low -- guess it's time to spring for some legit dielectric grease).


----------



## vortexpert. (Sep 27, 2009)

i like this


----------



## rpierson51 (Oct 12, 2007)

ive been thinking of going this route for a long time but my stock coil works perfect... now my question is for people who have done this successfully, is there a noticeable performance gain? because if its not a big difference im probably gona stick to the stock since it works perfect... if it aint broke dont fix it right?


----------



## vortexpert. (Sep 27, 2009)

im getting ready to install it on my s/c car.
word around the camp fire is you get a little better throttle response. based on what your doing to the car the coil should have a better spark and thus create better performance.ill let you know how my car goes.


----------



## vr604 (Feb 19, 2003)

Finally got mine done today. I had to reroute the brake booster hose to get it all to fir but no big deal.
I have a lapping day tomorrow so it should be a good test for the coils and their efficiency. I kept the factory plugs and gap for the time being just so that I dont make a whole bunch of changes at once. I like to wait and see if I notice the small details.


----------



## Standbackimapro (Mar 8, 2010)

I have done the Ford coil pack, and i deffinetly noticed a difference in throttle response, gas mileage, and overall runability.

I would like to do the MSD or accel packs, but for now the ford pack is working fine

I gapped the plugs up to .60 also, since i figured more spark, bigger gap to help burn air/fuel mixture better


----------



## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

Standbackimapro said:


> I would like to do the MSD or accel packs, but for now the ford pack is working fine


I dont see how the MSD setup would be "better" pricewise :sly:


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Read all 57 pages *wipes eyes* and subscribed to thread...cuz smart tuners do their homework.


----------



## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

vr6pilot said:


> Read all 57 pages *wipes eyes* and subscribed to thread...cuz smart tuners do their homework.


Care to write a summary of all 57 pages? :laugh: Just kidding...

I'd like to do this MSD swap here soon. I think it'll cure the problem that I've been having with hesitation.


----------



## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

vr6pilot said:


> Read all 57 pages *wipes eyes* and subscribed to thread...cuz smart tuners do their homework.



I hope you compare it to the Ford coilpack conversion..


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

Ford coil pack thread here.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4223032-Ford-Coil-Pack-on-VR6-with-Pics.


----------



## jeuro (Mar 6, 2008)

Where do you pick up coils at?


----------



## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

For the MSD Swap???

MSD Coils: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-8224

Plug Wires for MSD Coils: http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=600

Mounting Bracket for MSD Coils: http://www.fourseasontuning.com/?product=240


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

jeuro said:


> Where do you pick up coils at?


dude, seriously...read the thread.


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

www.FourSeasonTuning.com


----------



## tepid1 (May 16, 2010)

I just did this mod over the weekend. I used the FourSeasons bracket, MSD coils and the FourSeasons wires.... came out great! Overall, the drivability is smoother. I'll have to see what happens with my fuel economy. 

I'm glad I ran across this thread. 

Thanks all!


----------



## SDKMF (Oct 22, 2002)

Just wanted to share my project. PM me with any questions you may have.

To be used with a GM style 6 post coilpack.









I dont have the coilpack yet but when it comes I will drill and tap the gray plastic to mount it in OEM orientation.

What do you think? :thumbup: :thumbdown:


----------



## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

USMCFieldMP said:


> Care to write a summary of all 57 pages? :laugh: Just kidding...
> 
> I'd like to do this MSD swap here soon. I think it'll cure the problem that I've been having with hesitation.



This!!! 

The first post in this thread is full of burnt coilpacks! :laugh::laugh:


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

syntrix said:


> This!!!
> 
> The first post in this thread is full of burnt coilpacks! :laugh::laugh:


...and people who thought the coilpack bodies needed to be grounded. 
Just because this was done, doesn't mean it was done right.


----------



## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

vr6pilot said:


> ...and people who thought the coilpack bodies needed to be grounded.
> Just because this was done, doesn't mean it was done right.



Doesn't answer the question.


----------



## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

I've got 2 out of 3 MSD Coilpacks already. Just waiting on some money to get the third. Then I'll order the MSD Wire Terminals from Summit, and I need a bracket. Not sure what I'm going to do about the bracket.


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

syntrix said:


> Doesn't answer the question.


There was a question?

USMC...

I found this website, www.vr6coilbracket.com They are selling a pre-made wire set to connect the ICM to the coils for ten bucks. That's worth it to me to save time and gas running around to get wire (more than I'd need) and terminals to fit. They're already shrink wrapped and everything. Ordered yesterday along with the coils and boot ends from Jegs. Start on this next week. :thumbup:


----------



## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

I've actually already got that site Bookmarked. Lemme know when they show up... I'll probably end up ordering mine through them, as well.


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Change one...

The guy just contacted me wanting another 10 bills because "the wiring was meant to be an add-on to the bracket and so no separate shipping was figured".

So, if you're going to buy the wiring alone, it's 20 bucks. For me, the lack of cost-effectiveness took all the convenience out of it. Fact is, I can solder all day and probably have everything I need in the garage or basement. For $10 I just figured I'd let someone save me 20 minutes on the bench. My coils will be here Saturday...I'll marry up the right sized connectors with some nice thick primary wire and heat shrink. It'll be good.

syntrix, I'm not sure if it's pessimism I'm getting from you. the original poster blew up 3 coils before figuring out he had a bad ICM causing it. When you weigh that against the many people who've completed the swap successfully...I feel pretty confident that it's a completely workable solution to ignition woes. I may eat my words but I've got enough information and experience that I'm good with moving forward on it.


----------



## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

Nope.

I'm seeing you guys warning against the first post, but nobody has corrected the first post. Is that what I'm hearing?


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Sorry, I'm just not sure what you're asking. If you mean the first post in this thread...then I don't know what you mean about warning against it.

I will say, that first page has not been updated in over 2 years. Cubix probably got sick of this ish and decided to go drive his car. Couldn't blame him.

Even that first page is a tad convoluted. One need not post an entire paragraph to make a bullet statement like "don't use a resistor" or "3311 is the MSD part number for the 90degree boots"...etc.

It appears to me that the key to success is ISOLATION. By that I mean preventing any unintended contact of wires with grounds, with 12V+, or with each other. Thickly insulated wires, some non-conductive material around the edges of any metal pass-thru's and so on. Heat shrink alone is not a very good safeguard against a wire chafing thru it's jacket and shorting against the bracket. I mean to get obsessive about insulation when I do mine.

Yes I'll post pics and maybe even start a new thread with all 57 pages boiled down. Should be good for a few :thumbup:'s


----------



## cyclemofo (Aug 4, 2010)

*little trouble*

hey there new here !st post just put my msd coils on today still have a misfire . i bought msd coils four sesions bracket an wires . 1st thought maybe was bad plugs so changed them with bosch plat 4 . any ideas on what im doing wrong or did wrong thanks .


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

bosch plat 4's are all marketing. Nobody here is running them. You didn't read the whole thread. You get an F for the day.

Now, on to your problem...
I dunno. But it sounds like it is not coil related since the same problem exists that did before the swap.


----------



## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

NGK Copper plugs are where its at.

I believe its the BKR6E... I could be wrong on that one though. I've been drinking tonight.

Also, interesting on the whole wire thing. I'm just gonna get the bracket from them... but I wanna do the wires myself. I'm new to wiring and I really want some practice doing it.


----------



## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

USMCFieldMP said:


> NGK Copper plugs are where its at.


Cheap and effective. :thumbup:


----------



## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

vr6pilot said:


> Change one...
> 
> The guy just contacted me wanting another 10 bills because "the wiring was meant to be an add-on to the bracket and so no separate shipping was figured".
> 
> ...


ok ok let me get this strait, you didnt end up going with the wires here but your in the process of making them yourself, so my question is are you completely bypassing the 1 ohm resistor? if so do you still run the risk of blowing the coil?

I have read up on the frist 10 pages and have been following this post for some time now, i do understand that Cubix had a bad ICM so if I have all the wireing done up right I wont blow coils?

I dont really have the cash to dish out to keep on blowing coils


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

My coils and boots came today. That's where I am in the install. I am NOT using a resistor. The current wisdom suggests that the resistor is, at best, unnecessary and, at worst, causes problems at low rpm. So, definitely no resistor.

I checked the boot ends. msd #8850 is the same wire end as the 3311. Just sold in pack of 9 instead of the 3311 which is a 2-pack. I checked the wire tips and they snap onto the MSD coils real nice.


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Polishing the ICM mount. Not sure if I'm going to finish this.










Spent 2 hours at Lowe's getting my hardware and mounting plan together. My goal is to mount the coils so that I can use stock wires and NOT cut the VR's engine cover.

Update: I emailed the guy at the website and told him "thanks, but no thanks...just cancel the deal" but he had already shipped the wires. Now I feel like a dyck. I will still post a review of the product when it shows; maybe help the guy get some sales. :beer:


----------



## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

Sweet. I hope to get my last Coil and then the Bracket this week.


----------



## israelvzla (Aug 1, 2010)

Does anybody have the ICM pinout? I looking to test one before take any risk, because MSD coilpacks are very expensive around here


----------



## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

You can probably find it on here: http://www.a2resource.com/electrical/management/motronicvr6aba.html


----------



## israelvzla (Aug 1, 2010)

USMCFieldMP said:


> You can probably find it on here: http://www.a2resource.com/electrical/management/motronicvr6aba.html


Very good info, but not coilpack info :laugh:


----------



## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

vr6pilot said:


> Polishing the ICM mount. Not sure if I'm going to finish this.
> 
> Update: I emailed the guy at the website and told him "thanks, but no thanks...just cancel the deal" but he had already shipped the wires. Now I feel like a dyck. I will still post a review of the product when it shows; maybe help the guy get some sales. :beer:


any luck on getting the wires yet?

I'd like to hear a review of this becuase I would like to buy my bracket and wires from him if his work is legit


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

ups tracking says: the 19th.
Incidentally, the guy is in Canada. He totally owned up to his mistake of not clarifying the shipping cost with the wires and sent the parts out without being paid for said shipping. The guy is totally legit and I'll look over his wires tomorrow.


----------



## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

good stuff, I look forward to hearing about it


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

can someone tell me how far into the factory boot I can cut to get the most length on my stock wires?


----------



## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

israelvzla said:


> Very good info, but not coilpack info :laugh:


O Rly? Isn't this it?



> 8	Coil Pack Pin 2 (VR6 Coilpack) Black/Brown	-	-	Black/Brown





> 52	Coil Pack Pin 4	Black/Violet	-	-	Black/Violet





> 60	Coil Pack Pin 3	Black/Blue	-	-	Black/Blue


Either way, there's a picture in the VERY first post that tells which wires are which:


----------



## israelvzla (Aug 1, 2010)

I saw this picture before, but just the upper part , I feel stupid lol

Aparently the logic way I see right now to test the ICM module is with an ohmeter, measuring each coil trigger output to the metal case ground, you should see a very high resistance if the unit works good, if its low then is garbage.

Correct me if I wrong


----------



## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

I'm not 100% sure. I'm just getting into Wiring and Electronics. Haha. If you find out how to properly test it, lemme know... because I'll need to test mine too.


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

vr6pilot said:


> can someone tell me how far into the factory boot I can cut to get the most length on my stock wires?


haaaalllpp


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## DaBeeterEater (Aug 17, 2007)

ok im just sick of reading so im gonna ask

who has used the msd interface modules and how did you wire them 
did you reallly have to put power and ground to the 2 outside wires and power and trigger to the black ones ??

i cant get this setup to work and need some help please !!!!!!!


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

If you're wanting to reuse the factory plug wires, I'd slice the boot off the wire then trim it at the factory terminal. 

VW plug wires are cheap, too, if you're unable to use the ones on there now. 

I went to a Taylor 8mm wire on mine, but they don't fit in the engine cover grooves very well.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Thank you very much....I got on to see if I had an answer to my Q and then ask another...you answered both.

I actually had just taken the plunge and cut the black boot off the wire to reveal the grey plastic elbow underneath and cut the wire right up to it. In some cases, that's longer than I'll need as I want a real tidy install.

I was wondering how well 8mm wires would fit in the Mk4 engine cover. Guess I'll stick with stock for now: mine aren't old at all...maybe 18,000miles on 'em.

The way I have my coils oriented, I can't use those wires I got last Thursday. Not long enough. I have the coils oriented with the output posts toward the engine. I figure 10" length for what I need and I'm working on them now.

USMC: you want 'em?


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

argh :banghead: That's too bad... I'd be glad to do a longer set up for you if you like. I tried to keep them as tidy as possible with my bracket - there's not a lot of slack.

Sorry they didn't work out.


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## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

ok, so I'm about to roder my stuff, Ima order the coils from whatever site was on the first page I think, and the bracket from four seasons, then Im gonna make up the wires myself I''m not sure Ima go with the guy thats offering wires and the bracket


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

If they orient the coils the way you want them too, he's got a real slick looking bracket. :thumbup:

Wait till you see how I did mine: I elevated the center coil 1/2" above the others so the wire boots wouldn't bump into each other and I can still retain my Mk4 engine cover!


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

vr6pilot said:


> If they orient the coils the way you want them too, he's got a real slick looking bracket. :thumbup:
> 
> Wait till you see how I did mine: I elevated the center coil 1/2" above the others so the wire boots wouldn't bump into each other and I can still retain my Mk4 engine cover!


Nice. Look forward to seeing the pictures. My 3rd coil is on its way now. Got all 3 off of eBay. $35 shipped each. Best price I could find. I just had to buy them one at a time.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Is this going into the Mk2? And is it a Mk3 or Mk4 VR?


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## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

vr6pilot said:


> Is this going into the Mk2? And is it a Mk3 or Mk4 VR?


its gonna be on a mk4, but yea I may as well wait to see ur's frist, I should just order the coils for now


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

vr6pilot said:


> Is this going into the Mk2? And is it a Mk3 or Mk4 VR?


Actually, i was asking USMCfieldMP 'cause he's got a MK2 w/VR swap.

But as for yours...you're doing a straight up Mk4? If you're interested in retaining the engine cover as original as possible...I'll be sure to put up some pics tonight when I get off. I could not find a practical way to do it without cutting the cover but I only trimmed the side. In other words, looking straight down from above, you don't see any cuts but looking in from the driver's side, you would see that I raised it about 1.5 inches. Honestly, I think you'd have to have two engines side-by-side to tell the diff.

The hardest part, for me, was arranging how the wires approach the coils. I tried to meet the following criteria:
A) Use stock wires, crimp new terminals.
B) Retain stock engine cover
C) Orient the wire boots in a visually pleasing arrangement (no bird's nest)
D) Keep wires in the engine cover's grooves.

If you look at my coils from the driver's side, the boots look like this:

/ / \ / \ \ plus, my coils are spread out more than anyone's done so far. It won't be vortex-approved, to be sure! :laugh:


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## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

vr6pilot said:


> / / \ / \ \ plus, my coils are spread out more than anyone's done so far. It won't be vortex-approved, to be sure! :laugh:


hey you gotta start somewhere, I'm not worried about having a stock look, I just want my performance!!

lookin forward to seeing the pics


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Pics!


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

vr6pilot said:


> Is this going into the Mk2? And is it a Mk3 or Mk4 VR?


Its going in my MK2. Motor is out of a 95 Passat. I don't care too much about retaining the engine cover, but I was thinking about how I was going to do the wires the other day.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Not sure what the engine cover looks like on the Passat motor but the Mk4 cover extends a long way over the top of the stock coilpack. the Mk3 VR guys aren't having any probs.

tripwalking: you will not be impressed by my bracket afting seeing yours. :thumbup:

either way, sorry I didn't get any pics yesterday...try maybe at lunch today. Nothing's wired yet but the coils are "_physically_" mounted.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Okay...shot 2 nice pics of the setup. Probably clean up the base plate, either brushed effect or polishing, before it's all said and done.



















Alright, I'm ready....whatcha all think?


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

Looks good. I still need to find myself a bracket... or make one. Haven't decided what I wanna do just yet.


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## israelvzla (Aug 1, 2010)

That´s Crap, do you know why? because that engine is not in my car :laugh::laugh: LOL

Looks exelent.


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## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

looks good i'm assuming you went with the bracket from the one guy we were talking about before

also the raised look in the center looks sweet


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Negative, ghostrider...I fabbed my own bracket. Essentially, it is this:

Two thick 1.5" wide aluminum strips bent 90 degrees form the basic mount. They bolt on top of the factory ICM housing with some 1/2" spacers in between to allow clearance for the 4 electrical terminals ( I said I was going to be real crazy about preventing electrical shorts) and the spacers also help eat up the extra length of the stock bolts. I've also got a phenolic plate between the timing cover and the ICM to reduce heat transfer to the ICM itself and everything beyond, to include the coils.

then I made a base plate from actual aircraft sheet aluminum (I work at an Army heliport...too easy). The plate is very rigid...not that flimsy ish you get at Lowe's. Very careful marking and drilling to accomodate the stainless steel hardware and self-locking nuts and passages for the primary wires.

The center coil rides on the spacers so the plug wires can overlap. I may switch them out with nylon spacers...I have a few laying around.

Did up the primary wires last night. 12 ga. and liberal use of thick heat shrink and solder. Also, added a nylon wire retainer under the base plate to minimize wire movement, dangling, and to just keep it tidy.

So far so good. I'm just giddy that the coils match the Flash Red so well. :thumbup:


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## defprun (Aug 2, 2009)

I just finished swapping my stock coilpack for the newer Ford coilpack 2001+. And wow what a difference that makes!! The windstar shares the same coilpack as the taurus with the 3.0 but only after 2000. Taurus's coilpack is much easier to access since its right on top of the motor right on the valve cover closest to the rad support. Windstar's is behind the intake plenum, the one i got mine from was smashed in so it was a pain in the ass...but I wanted to make sure they were both the same. Lol.


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Looks slick!

Now would be a good time to scribe the side profile of the front and rear coils so you can trim the excess off the bracket (if that's important to you). 

Another thing to keep in mind in running the plug wires overlapping like that: I know it's pretty well impossible to do, but if you can keep some gap in between the plug wires that will help prevent arcing.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Here's a crappy ms paint version of how I plan to build an air filter housing to 'fill' up the driver's side of the bay. The coils setup will sit nicely between the engine shroud and airbox.

Haven't decided if I want to leave the box "brushed" aluminum, paint it red, or wrap it in the same carbon fiber as the intake mani. thoughts?


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Some detail pics of the bracket. Keep in mind...I haven't finished cleaning anything up yet. Once done, everything will have smooth flowing edges. I'm a nut with a dremel!




























Plug wires done as of tonight. Engine start set for tomorrow evening...


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

remember to plug the ECU back in before you start :laugh: :banghead:

I couldn't figure out why the thing kept turning over but wouldn't fire! Thought I messed something up big time... yup, that one little plug...

Looks good!


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

[No message]


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

Good stuff. I've got all 3 Coilpacks now. Making a bracket sounds like an inexpensive alternative... but I might just end up ordering a bracket. Less of a chance I'll screw something up... which has been the case for the last few weeks. I've really been off my game. Haha.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Heading out. Whether it starts tonight or not, I'll have some pics up of the complete assy. with all the plug boots and such. After I get my :beer: on, that is.


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## 12V_VR (Aug 11, 2010)

got mines done:


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## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

ahhh now that I see the second set of pics, it looks sick, the bracket was very nicley done, mad props to ya:thumbup::thumbup:

just like USMC said, I think I may be able to make it myself, but I think ima order one so I dont mess anything up, think I may just go with the package deal this guy has http://www.vr6coilbracket.com/


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

I think you could use his bracket, and still elevate the center coil with spacers from Lowe's if you needed to.
I didn't do diddley last night. But I'm heading to the store and then getting back to work on it.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

*MSD Coilpack Mod, complete.*

Okay, here's what I got:

The coils...









The clear vinyl tubing...you can see it in two places...used to prevent wires from chaffing against the mount...









The engine..._running!_










The celebration...










Startup went well. Turned key to ON and let the car sit for a fefw seconds while the throttle body made its re-calibration (series of clicks), then OFF, then fired her up. Of course, she idled like poo for several minutes while the ECU did its "_WTF?_ ", then "_hmmm_", then "_oh, I see_", then "_lets try this_", then "_oh yeah, that's the ticket_." I just let it do its thing, get up to operating temp, then revved it several times _gently_. She backfired a bit at first but even that went away finally settling into a solid 700RPM idle.

I still have some finish work to do and would like to do more tweaks to ensure no possibility of grounding out but wanted just to see if it would even run before I put that extra time in.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Oh, and that aluminum base plate, yeah, it looks nice but I think I'm going to build a new one from ABS plastic sheet. I'm concerned about the primary wires shorting against the plate where they plug into the coils underneath. I just don't like it.


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Congrats! I can remember how exciting the first start was (after I remembered to plug the ECU in  )


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

My ABS plastic will be in my mailbox today and I'll start the shaping on it tonight. I really don't want to drive the car with a metal mounting plate under those coils. :thumbdown:

My plugs are still gap'd where they were before I started this...about .025 and for the first 20 seconds after startup, it burbles and pops and generally idles like sh]t. Will the larger gap help here? Or what's the deal with that? Anyone know? My car has GOT to run right if I'm gonna make the drive to H2O.


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## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

ok so here's where I stand right now, MSD coils are ordered so is the bracket and wires, I had been doing some reading and I think Im gonna strip down the bracket when I get it and spray it with prasti dip so that I wount short out my setup with the the bracket

thats where I stand for now if any one has any other suggestions feel free to let me know, I am not a pro on the subject and am open to anything (almost anything)


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

I didn't have any issues with wires shorting out, and all the local guys running this setup are fine with a ton of miles. 

It's up to you though


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## SDKMF (Oct 22, 2002)

*Plug wires*

I need some help guys. 

I need to pick out some spark plug wires to run in my coilpack setup. I wanted to buy a wire kit that was over length and would allow me to cut the wires to exact length and crimp my own ends on.

Does anyone know if the wires that can be had from one particular forum sponsor here are longer than usual mk3 wires?

Any suggestions please?


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Taylor has a universal wire kit with crimp on ends.


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## peuro (Sep 3, 2010)

ah...this 'splains why I haven't seen that red car around. dude, get your **** back on the road!


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## SDKMF (Oct 22, 2002)

peuro said:


> ah...this 'splains why I haven't seen that red car around. dude, get your **** back on the road!


my car is together and on the road. look in the engine bay thread


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## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

I should have known this was gonna happen, I have all my parts ordered and was gonna install them as soon as I get them but now I'm haveing clutch problems so that is gonna put this on hold now


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## vortexpert. (Sep 27, 2009)

vr6pilot said:


> Okay, here's what I got:
> 
> The coils...
> 
> ...


^hard... harder than 3 week old cake!


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

eh? I finished up the whole proj today with the plastic base plate. I feel waaaayyy better about the primary wires never shorting against anything. I'll get pics up soonish but I'm liking the new look of the black ABS. I cut the piece larger than the alum plate in the interest of engine bay cleanupage. Didn't try starting it...I already know it works...need to pull the plugs and reset the gaps.


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## peuro (Sep 3, 2010)

SDKMF said:


> my car is together and on the road. look in the engine bay thread


I meant the one pictured on this page ^^ Feel free to whore up here as well, tho :thumbup:


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

tripwalking said:


> Looks slick!
> 
> Now would be a good time to scribe the side profile of the front and rear coils so you can trim the excess off the bracket (if that's important to you).
> 
> Another thing to keep in mind in running the plug wires overlapping like that: I know it's pretty well impossible to do, but if you can keep some gap in between the plug wires that will help prevent arcing.


Not impossible. I'm on it, batman.


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## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

alright so I just got my coils in and was just messin around with my wires and coils and figured out that the wires I bought (was for my stock car, before I decided to go with this setup) does not fit and now were I bought them from will not let me return any electronics, so I do feel confident enough to cut off the ends and re-crimp them myself, now I dont know what size ends to get, I think this was answered once before on here or mentioned but i cant quite find it so could you guys help me out and send me a link or the product that you fellas used for the end of ur wires

thanks in advance


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

I'd get the same brand ends as the coils... if you're using MSD coils, get MSD crimp-on connectors. Otherwise, if you get Taylor wires, they will come with two different styles of connectors and one will fit on the MSD coils. That's what I did - I used Taylor wires with the included connectors and I bought MSD boots (sold separately).


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## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

Thats what I was gonna go with initially but didnt know if there is different sizes, so any MSD end will do?


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Double check with who you buy them from... I can tell you they'll fit, but if they don't then I have nothing invested in making sure you have the right parts other than being fellow enthusiasts . If the person you buy them from tells you they'll fit but they don't, you have leverage.


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## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

yea true , I'll keep you guys posted


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

MSD #8850 is what I used. Its a pack of 9...so you can screw up 3 times and still be good to go. It's boots and crimps.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Up and running again on the plastic plate and .041 gap.


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

I've got 3 MSD Coil Packs (8224's)... $120 shipped, if anyone is interested.

All brand new, took them out of the box in preparation to put on... and then lost interest.


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## tepid1 (May 16, 2010)

Mine is still running great!

I've got about 2000 miles on it already and I'm also seeing an increase in fuel economy. I didn't change the gap on the plugs from the OEM specs.... should I?

FWIW I'm getting about 388 miles to a tank of gas in my VR6 12v.... is that good compared to others? Before I was getting about 350 to a tank.


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## swagger rob (Aug 13, 2009)

Yea pretty good compared to me, i get a solid...220.


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## tepid1 (May 16, 2010)

I should add that those numbers were on the highway. Around town and to/from work I get about 350ish. Before I was only getting 350 to the tank on the highway.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

USMCFieldMP said:


> All brand new, took them out of the box in preparation to put on... and then lost interest.


I kind of understand. My car's running fine with them but I do have this nagging sense that the car is going to leave me stranded somewhere without warning.  Just hopefully not enroute to H2Oi. :thumbdown:


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

I just finished the turbo downpipe on my Cobalt, so I have an exhaust on it again. 

22psi from a Billet HP5557... putting out about 380-400whp. I dunno, just lost interest in the GTI. I'm about to do some stuff to it, but there are quite a few things that I need to fix on it before I start messing around with adding performance.


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## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

bump


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## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

FourSeasonTuning.com said:


> bump


 
I can't believe how far this has come. I started this years ago...... 


I have well over 100K miles on my MSD coils with no troubles. I am also no longer running a resistor


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

drove up to fayetteville, NC from Enterprise, AL yesterday. No worries and hot as hell outside.


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

So what exactly does the msd coil interface do? part number 8870. whats its purpose?


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

My opinion: if you're swapping MSD's into your VR6...you don't need them. But to answer your question, they provide a mounting platform to enable you to install the coil without plugging in little wires that may loosen and fall off. Most of us have smeared like an RTV or other 'adhesive' to prevent the wires from dropping out of the bottom of the coils and keep out moisture. the interface would negate this as you would permanently connect the primaries to the mounts. good?


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

Thanks for the answer.. that what I figured. But got a little confused seeing that they have four wires on the interface, but the coils only have two plugs. Why four wires?


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

WeeZFan69 said:


> Thanks for the answer.. that what I figured. But got a little confused seeing that they have four wires on the interface, but the coils only have two plugs. Why four wires?


I'd presume these are the same as the four pins coming out of the ECU... three signals and a ground.


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

Summit says: "These modules go between the factory GM ignition module and coil packs. They have color-coded wires that connect to the DIS wiring, are molded using Arathane Polyurethane for its high dielectric strength, and connect directly to the factory terminals."

FYI, I've still got 3 MSD Coils for sale... any offers?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

silentdub said:


> I can't believe how far this has come. I started this years ago......
> 
> 
> I have well over 100K miles on my MSD coils with no troubles. I am also no longer running a resistor


I still cant believe people are doing this, I'm still on the same stock coilpack


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I still cant believe people are doing this, I'm still on the same stock coilpack


...and so was I until this summer on my 11-year old GTI. For quite some time, the first start of the day would see my car running a tad rough for about 1 minute. Thought it might be the coilpack since everybody and their dog was filing similar complaints on the 'tex. Upon closer inspection...I found numerous hairline cracks throughout the body of the coilpack. My assumption was that moisture was settling in overnight (humidity :thumbdown: ) and causing some jazz with the current flow. Since I had to fix it anyway...I did mine for a little less $$ than buying a new stock pack...plus I get a big :thumbup: for the bling factor. Of course, all that is moot if it doesn't run right but...I just rolled 2,000 miles to make it to H2O and back. No worries.


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I still cant believe people are doing this, I'm still on the same stock coilpack


Cause your NA. try boost on a stock coilpack it didnt work out for me


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

WeeZFan69 said:


> Cause your NA. try boost on a stock coilpack it didnt work out for me


how much boost? I ran stage 1 (6 lbs.) no problem. You sure spark was the issue?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

WeeZFan69 said:


> Cause your NA. try boost on a stock coilpack it didnt work out for me


You can make a lot of power with a stock coilpack, even with distributor and stock coil. I'll do a back to back test one of these days but I still don't see the need for these conversions based on my experiences.


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

vr6pilot said:


> how much boost? I ran stage 1 (6 lbs.) no problem. You sure spark was the issue?


If I want to run 18psi I had to gap them at .018... and that BARELY works... it help on the street but not the dyno. And after 2 weeks I just have to keep turning the boost down because it gets worse and worse. 14lbs was even doing it with a gap of .018... thats embarassing. I heard people saying you cant run over like a .025 gap boosted on the stock coilpack. .025 is weak. 
And yes I know for a fact that spark is my problem because when I close up the gap it fixes it. But who wants to run a gap that tight?

Plus these are wayyyy cheaper than a stock coilpack and I can run a gap of .035 boosted. Thats why this conversion is great... to bad no one makes it more plug and play.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Strange, bench testing there's not much difference in the GM vs VR6 coils and the MSD ones are barely stronger then those (especially if you add the ballast resistor). If you want a strong coil the LS1/LS2/LS Truck coils will blow any of those out of the water and trigger the same as a stock VR6 coil. Bit harder to make a bracket though.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

I think it is surprisingly plug-n-play given the amount of actual handiwork that needs to be done just to put it all together. A 60-page thread encompassing everything from concept to R&D to execution probably makes it look more daunting than it really is. That said, I did put more into mine because I was aware of the potential pitfalls and wanted to eliminate as many of them as possible.

I had heard that boost (enough of it) does tend to require a hotter (stronger) spark. That explains why I had to bring my gap down a tad from stock for the 5.8 actual psi I'm pushing into the cylinders. Now, I'm on .041" gap and she runs real nice with the new coils.

As for the truck coils....too much of a good thing maybe? Based on the gaps people have posted in this thread, I would have to say that there is plenty of evidence to support that the MSD coils are putting out more energy than the stock pack. Try running .050 on a stock pack. Misfire anyone? But that doesn't mean that you need 70,000 volts output power or that it will do any better. Okay, you can gap your plugs so wide that they touch the top of the piston...whatever.

And as for need...hey, I did it cheaper than a replacement coilpack. Just barely, but cheaper. And I dig the look under the hood. It's win/win if it works and, so far, I'm daily reliable.

.....oh, on that note: After H20i, I drove home sunday afternoon into evening in some VERY heavy rain, the storm thats been on the news all week, and the car plowed thru it without a hiccup. :thumbup:

edit: and I'd like to go back (if I could) and delete all that talk about the resistor. It has just confused the issue and *YOU DO NOT NEED IT*. Not for this app. My 1972 Plymouth V8 had one. That's why MSD makes 'em.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

If the LS coils are 'too much spark' then how are the MSD's not?

I run .042 gap on my plugs @ 11.3:1 compression with no problems. I've pulled off two MSD setups on customer cars and installed new OE coils with better results (both NA). Boost might be a different story (not on any car I've done, I just lower the gap) but in my experience the effort doesn't really justify the result.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Okay. I'm not arguing with ya, bro. And sure, I could have R&R'd a new coilpack into my car in minutes vs. the time it took fabbing a bracket and soldering up some primaries. But if saving time is the factor...I could have saved literally months of time not painting my calipers, not getting aftermarket wheels, not replacing both bumpers, adding sideskirts, dropping the car and the resultant repaints my bumpers needed for scrape damage.......I think you get my point. Its _modding_, and if I didn't do it, I have a really great stock daily with a new coilpack and probably be a better guitar player. Just sayin.

So I'll agree with you that, in terms of just a replacement ignition for the daily...its a fail. Good?


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

vr6pilot said:


> Okay. I'm not arguing with ya, bro. And sure, I could have R&R'd a new coilpack into my car in minutes vs. the time it took fabbing a bracket and soldering up some primaries. But if saving time is the factor...I could have saved literally months of time not painting my calipers, not getting aftermarket wheels, not replacing both bumpers, adding sideskirts, dropping the car and the resultant repaints my bumpers needed for scrape damage.......I think you get my point. Its _modding_, and if I didn't do it, I have a really great stock daily with a new coilpack and probably be a better guitar player. Just sayin.
> 
> So I'll agree with you that, in terms of just a replacement ignition for the daily...its a fail. Good?


but for BOOOST its a must in my opinion


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

On boosted cars I just reduce the gap and they're good to go. Maybe I just have exceptional luck...


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

need_a_VR6 said:


> On boosted cars I just reduce the gap and they're good to go. Maybe I just have exceptional luck...


you must. or i have an extra crappy stock coilpack cause I was still having problems at an .018 gap. Do the stock coils get weak after time?


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## hyperformancevw (Mar 15, 2007)

in my experience on a high boost/high hp vr, the stock coil can not cut it. we went through 3 stock ones. it would run great for a week or 2 and then start breaking up. put on a new coil and plugs and still the same issue. changed the plug wires twice with taylor wires and then msd. finally we went the msd coil route and this WAS THE WORST THING I HAVE EVER SEEN. two coils burned up and two modules burned up even WITH the resistor on the second module within 3 weeks. finally we went to the junkyard and ripped a coil off a 98 ford windstar and just slapped it on with no resistor or anything and the car has been running perfect for the last 3 months of total abuse. nkg bkr9es gaped to .030 and it runs perfect all the way to 20psi on a holset hx52 and we havent touched a thing since. the used for coil cost us $20 with the stock ford windstar plug ends clamped onto the msd wires. also you dont need to make a goofy bracket, you can just mod the stock coil housing for the ford coil to fit in for stock appearance.

btw, the new stock coils were beck arnley and cost over $200...and the modules arent available separate :thumbdown:


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

hyperformancevw said:


> in my experience on a high boost/high hp vr, the stock coil can not cut it. we went through 3 stock ones. it would run great for a week or 2 and then start breaking up. put on a new coil and plugs and still the same issue. changed the plug wires twice with taylor wires and then msd. finally we went the msd coil route and this WAS THE WORST THING I HAVE EVER SEEN. two coils burned up and two modules burned up even WITH the resistor on the second module within 3 weeks. finally we went to the junkyard and ripped a coil off a 98 ford windstar and just slapped it on with no resistor or anything and the car has been running perfect for the last 3 months of total abuse. nkg bkr9es gaped to .030 and it runs perfect all the way to 20psi on a holset hx52 and we havent touched a thing since. the used for coil cost us $20 with the stock ford windstar plug ends clamped onto the msd wires. also you dont need to make a goofy bracket, you can just mod the stock coil housing for the ford coil to fit in for stock appearance.
> 
> btw, the new stock coils were beck arnley and cost over $200...and the modules arent available separate :thumbdown:


lol sounds like you did something wrong with those msds...


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## WeeZFan69 (Aug 3, 2003)

I just got my MSD coils, and I'm having trouble finding some connectors to fit into the MSD coils, I don't really wanna start opening up the coils and soldering but cant find connectors that are long enough to plug in. Someone give me some ideas??


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## hyperformancevw (Mar 15, 2007)

i doubt it...its not rocket science.  all we did was put the 4 wires to the ford coil and been trouble free since. they seem to be hit or miss. if you want good connectors, use the steel strips that come in a wiper blade refill and cut them in pieces to fit. they slide in the coil slots perfectly and then epoxy them in.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

ford coil pack = ugly. just sayin.


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## hyperformancevw (Mar 15, 2007)

it looks like stock


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## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

vr6pilot said:


> ford coil pack = ugly. just sayin.


x2


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## defprun (Aug 2, 2009)

hyperformancevw said:


> it looks like stock


:thumbup:


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## yeahbob (Jan 25, 2010)

just got mine done a few days ago, running without a resistor and it runs great ^_^


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

If nobody buys these MSD's from me in the next couple weeks... maybe I'll just go ahead and put them on.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

USMCFieldMP said:


> If nobody buys these MSD's from me in the next couple weeks... maybe I'll just go ahead and put them on.


you'll have to if you want to join the cool kids club. 

yeahbob, clean install - bull**** 1.3mp phone pic. wtf? edit that shish.


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## Das Borgen (Sep 10, 2008)

for anybody with an E36 or E30 who tracks

gruvenparts currently is running a group buy on front brake backing plates and duct for brake cooling for track purposes

well worth it


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## yeahbob (Jan 25, 2010)

vr6pilot said:


> you'll have to if you want to join the cool kids club.
> 
> yeahbob, clean install - bull**** 1.3mp phone pic. wtf? edit that shish.





better?


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## Pete O. Arguelles (Jul 5, 2000)

Anyone find a solution to repalcing the ICM. As of now if my ICM goes I have to buy an entire coilpack. I should have pics up soon of my accel coilpack installation with yellow neuspeed wires. Im tempted to give the ICM a shot if not a good buddy of mine his brother is an electrical engineer maybe he can help.


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## tepid1 (May 16, 2010)

yeahbob said:


> better?


Yes, but replace those zip ties.... please!


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## yeahbob (Jan 25, 2010)

tepid1 said:


> Yes, but replace those zip ties.... please!


 lol don't wanna risk having more grounding problems. 

EDIT for page ownage ^_^


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Is "alternative" misspelled on purpose?


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## MK2G60T (Jul 17, 2003)

So whats the risk of running this setup without the resistor?


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

There are many of us who have run this setup for tonnes of miles with no resistor... I don't think there's a big risk.


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## megaDan (Jul 11, 2007)

Update:

Bought my setup used, not sure how many miles were on it...but I've put ~25k miles on it so far without a hiccup. This mod is a MUST DO for all who have the slightest misfire when its wet.


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## brit mk2t (Feb 11, 2007)

Has anyone tried using Nology wires with this setup...? I seem to be having a issue with my boosted VR, it breaks up as soon as it hits boost, running MSD coilpacks and a .024 gap, oh i also have the Nology spark plugs... i was running 12lbs of boost for a few weeks, ran fine but had to dial it back to 7.... ran fine for a while but now it's starting to break up again under boost....


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## tepid1 (May 16, 2010)

Nology plugs are a waste of money.

What heat range plugs are you running now?


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## brit mk2t (Feb 11, 2007)

tepid1 said:


> Nology plugs are a waste of money.
> 
> What heat range plugs are you running now?


I just told the guy at nology what i had and he matched them to that... i think they are 7 but not 100% sure, but i did put my NGK's back in tonight (the ones i got with the kinetic kit) and gapped them down to .020 just to see how it would run, and it ran great, and i was also able to run at 14lbs of boost... i guess now i can start gapping them back up and see how it runs.... any suggestions on a gap to run.....?


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## tepid1 (May 16, 2010)

Just keep opening the gap until it starts blowing out the spark. Once you get to that point close them up a bit. Every turbo is going to be different based on boost pressure and flow ratings.

I've had great luck with the NGK BKR7E plugs in the past. They are cheap to replace too.


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## MK2G60T (Jul 17, 2003)

Is anyone using the interface module piece with the MSD coils that connects to the bottom of the coils #8870? Waste of money? If not how are you connecting your home brew harness from the ICM? Spade connectors?

I bought some spade connectors but it seems they are to small to properly secure into the MSD coil. Maybe try some slighlty bigger connectors.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Using spades. Look for 3/16" on the package, male spades. they plug right in to the bottom of the coils but not a bad idea to add a dab of some kind of adhesive sealer (like reg silicone) to ensure they don't fall out.


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## MK2G60T (Jul 17, 2003)

vr6pilot said:


> Using spades. Look for 3/16" on the package, male spades. they plug right in to the bottom of the coils but not a bad idea to add a dab of some kind of adhesive sealer (like reg silicone) to ensure they don't fall out.


Thanks for the info man:thumbup:


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## DBL_TKE (Sep 2, 2010)

Can you provide the exact part numbers or at least specific details to the spade connectors that you're using? I had to trim some 14/16 gauge spade connectors because they are too wide, and they are definitely not making a good contact and can easily slip right out. Has anyone tried taking apart a GM ICM in order to use the plate/connectors?


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

You need two dimensions: the gage of wire you are using (e.g. 12, 14) and the width of the spade itself. The correct width is 3/16". If they are loose fitting (different brands...who knows) you could apply a thin layer of solder to them to increase the thickness of the spade. 

I bought a package of spade terminals at Lowe's. Don't waste your time at Radio Shack. The way they have their ish packaged will drive you nuts.


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## MK2G60T (Jul 17, 2003)

vr6pilot said:


> . Don't waste your time at Radio Shack. The way they have their ish packaged will drive you nuts.


Thanks for telling me this after i wasted my time.:laugh: I was about two seconds from kicking their shelves over


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## DBL_TKE (Sep 2, 2010)

Thanks for the info. I rewired my setup and replaced all the spade connectors. Now everything is making a much more solid contact. Unfortunately it didn't fix my problem with my engine. :banghead:


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Realized I never put up a pic with the new plastic baseplate. Here it is, sitting in the field at H2Oi...


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## MK2G60T (Jul 17, 2003)

vr6pilot said:


> Realized I never put up a pic with the new plastic baseplate. Here it is, sitting in the field at H2Oi...


Nice install!


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Thanks! Just tryin' to keep it clean in there.


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## MK2G60T (Jul 17, 2003)

Looks clean enough to eat off of. Pretty cool how you spaced the middle coil higher to clear the boot caps.:thumbup:


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## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

yep looks sweet!! I can't wait to get mine done, school has been insane


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## kelchm (Feb 9, 2010)

vr6pilot said:


> Thanks! Just tryin' to keep it clean in there.


 That looks incredible. I've saved it for inspiration. Do you think you can post a few more shots somewhere?

Also... where did you get the plug wires, or did you make them yourself?


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Thanks! I appreciate the comments. It takes some special kind of love to keep a daily looking like that :screwy:

Yep, the spacers are nylon to eliminate another ground pathway and made fitting those huge msd boots a lot easier. The wires are just the stock wires that I had on before. They only had about 18,000 on them when I did the mod...I hated the thought of tossing perfectly good wires.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

the pic above is the best one I have...here's some runner ups.



















Here's one from back in 'the day'. 2005


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Very nice! I like the "filler" piece to hide the wires and stuff.


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## MK2G60T (Jul 17, 2003)

dang, very clean for a daily, i wish my daily looked that clean


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Yeh, the filler is the base plate...just larger. I like the look better than my more 'trimmed' plate that I started off with....










11 years old, 122,000 miles, orig. owner and proud father 

Still need to find a way to delete that white zip tie on the catch can :thumbdown:


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## Ekim19vw (Dec 1, 2010)

*Vr6 coil packs questions*

Has anyone try spraying the top of the bracket with rubberized coating to prevent grounding and is the resistor suppose to be used or was that just a attempt to save the icm


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## Ekim19vw (Dec 1, 2010)

And is their a way to set up a fuse between the coils and th icm to prevent burning out the icm because their much more expensive then just buy another coil pack


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

dunno about a fuse. the resistor is not needed....its been said over and over and over and over. I know there's alot to read here but you DON'T NEED A RESISTOR. 

The 'trick' to saving your ICM is to prevent inadvertant shorts. 
Where the primary wires connect to the coils, they have to pass thru the metal base plate (the ones being prefabbed and sold by most dealers). This is the most likely point at which a short or inadvertent ground will occur. Wrap the wires; secure the wires...to prevent chaffing thru the wire's jacketing. Look at the image below...it clearly illustrates this problem area. While no primary wires are shown, look closely at the two holes on either side of the mounting bolt.










this was a prototype which I dumped in favor of an ABS plastic coil mount.


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## Ekim19vw (Dec 1, 2010)

Alright thank you I've got the gm coil packs in car now but want to upgrade to msd but I'm going to rewire the harness for them because when you move the coil pack it makes the car go off i think who ever put these in the car before did a ****y job


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## defprun (Aug 2, 2009)

I had a short, the bracket i made didnt have a clearance for the wires sauldered at the ICM and I didnt wrap them and the ignition switch got fried along with one of the wires all the way back to the fusebox. If you are using the stock ICM there is no use for a resistor, it is basically just 4 fuses inside there that blow at a certain amperage...i dont know what that is because my car started on fire before it even hurt them, its still good...


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## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

alright fellas so right now I am working on wiring my ICM to the coils, I have found a good spade connector to connect the wires to the coils and wanted to see what some of you guys were doing to wire to the ICM
I do know it is extremely important to make sure they don't come out so that it does not short out

just wanted see what you guys were doing weather you're just soldering the wires to the ICM or using a spade connector or something


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

You can snip the 'fork' off the end and use a wide, female spade connector. Another way to do it is to crimp a terminal with a hole on the wire, then bolt the terminal through the 'fork' in the end of the ICM lead.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

If you have the GM coils, there's nothing to gain by putting MSDs in. That said, the USMC guy is still selling his, unused.


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## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

tripwalking said:


> You can snip the 'fork' off the end and use a wide, female spade connector. Another way to do it is to crimp a terminal with a hole on the wire, then bolt the terminal through the 'fork' in the end of the ICM lead.


I wasn't to sure about snipping the end of the fork, but I might as well just go ahead and snip em, any pictures of anyone doing this?


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## SHAG WAGON (Jun 15, 2004)

I am running my setup with the resistor but now after a couple of years I am not getting power to the MSD coils.

Can the resistor go bad??


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Just take a pair of side cutters and clip them just behind the 'fork'. You'll be fine


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

A resistor can, in fact, go bad. Especially after several heat up and cool down cycles. I think that resistor gets really hot. But since I'm running without, I wouldn't know.


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## Ekim19vw (Dec 1, 2010)

*Coilpacks*

Do you have his link so that I could purchase those from him


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## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

www.FourSeasonTuning.com


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## jesters22 (Sep 16, 2009)

on my mk3 jetta i have the msd setup, i was getting a misfire and turns out my 3/4 coil pack was cracked down the entire body. i read in this thread that if your coil pack has a huge crack down the side its probably a bad icm.

my question is will a bad icm only crack 1 coil pack? or will it always crack all 3?

i have purchased a new coil pack but b4 i install it i am curious as to if the icm is bad? or was the coil pack just bad at blew up?

any help would be greatly appreciated.


update ****

i installed my new coil pack, and i am not getting power to that coil.. i switched the new coil to the other coil wires, and i got spark on the plug so i know my wiring on the new coil is good. i looked at the wiring under the coil and it looks "un healthy" if that is even a word. although i don't have a wire tester to see if those wires have power.

should i go buy that already premade wire harness that was discussed in the thread for 10$ or 20$ which ever it is? and throw it in? i also believe i have a resistor on my setup. could my resistor have gone bad and not give power to the 3/4 coil? 



if anyone can help me please feel free to throw me your input


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

Well, a few months after selling my 3 MSD Coilpacks after losing interest in the project... here I am... with a cracked stock coilpack.

Ordered the Bare Bracket and Wiring Kit from vr6coilbracket.com... and then 3 MSD Coilpacks and 3 MSD Spark Plug Boots and Terminals from SummitRacing.com. (Jegs has better pricing... but I always order from Summit... so I have coupons and stuff that I use. And Summit ALWAYS has the parts at my door the very next day.)

I believe the Bracket and Wires shipped today... and I know the Coilpacks and Boots arrived today (only I wasn't home to sign, so I have to wait until tomorrow ).

Should be a pretty straight forward install, I take it. Anyone have any suggestions for stripping my old Plug Wires and crimping on the MSD Terminals? I have the STI Plug Wires that GermanAutoParts.com offers. I almost ordered the pre-made Plug Wires from Four Season... but I'm trying to save a bit of money where I can (my water pump and crack pipe also started leaking, so I'm replacing them, as well).



jesters22 said:


> should i go buy that already premade wire harness that was discussed in the thread for 10$ or 20$ which ever it is? and throw it in? i also believe i have a resistor on my setup. could my resistor have gone bad and not give power to the 3/4 coil?


Resistors can go bad, yes.


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## jesters22 (Sep 16, 2009)

here is a picture of my wires.. im thinking i may just redo the wires first. and see how that turns out. i have wire and male/female plugs.. 










if its not my wiring, then it has to be my icm, bc im getting power to 2 out of the 3 coils..


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Lose the resistor. If you got anything out of this thread, it should have been that.

Wires do not have to be pretty, they must be electrically conductive.

The only recommendation I have for doing the plug wires is to cut the old boots off as far into the boot as you can so as to leave the maximum amount of plug wire. After that, it's as easy as pie.


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## jesters22 (Sep 16, 2009)

re did all the wires, from the coil pack right down to the icm, made the exact copy of the diagram on vr6coilbracket.com and im still not getting spark to my 3/4 coil which is the middle.. and that is my brand new coil pack i just got yesterday.

so now i have replaced plugs, wires, coil pack on 3/4, and wiring.. i guess my icm is bad then??


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

that, of course, is a possibility. I do not believe that a bad ICM can crack a coil tower, though.

You still running a resistor?


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

vr6pilot said:


> that, of course, is a possibility. I do not believe that a bad ICM can crack a coil tower, though.
> 
> You still running a resistor?


Unless the info changed somewhere in this thread, the OP mentioned that having a bad ICM will crack a tower.



> Check out what happens when you have a bad ICM


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## jesters22 (Sep 16, 2009)

no more resistor, 3 wires from the coil packs directly to the terminals on the icm, and then the 3 ground wire together piece.

all with fresh wires, and fresh crimp connectors. and i siliconed all the ends so no water could get in. 

if i replace my icm with a working icm, and its not the problem i might just sell the car to be honest.


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

w00t! Coilpacks and Terminals showed up today... looks like I might have the Bracket and Wires tomorrow, if not, then Friday.


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Just received an email that the bracket arrived  

dw


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

Yes they did! I'm excited! I wanna do all my parts installs in one shot... but BFI took their time shipping me my Water Pump, Cooling Kit, and new Belt. Doesn't look like I'll have that stuff until next week. 

Can't really drive anywhere with a leaking water pump.


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

Took everything apart tonight... then put it all back together with the MSD Set-up. First start up was not successful. She runs and idles... but sound like its only on 4 or 5 cylinders. Checked all my connections and made sure I had all the wires on the right coils. Was getting late, so I said to hell with it, I'll fix it in the morning. I'm wondering if one of the MSD Terminals doesn't have a good connection with a plug wire... or two. Iono. I'll find out tomorrow, I suppose. I REALLY hope I don't have to tear it all apart tomorrow.

:banghead:


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

did it clear up after awhile? after the engine warmed?


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Double check that the spark plug wires are all snapped down tight on the coils... It can be fidgety. Is there any noticeable clicking at the coils? ie. Electrical shorts you can hear?


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

vr6pilot said:


> did it clear up after awhile? after the engine warmed?


I didn't let it run long enough to find out.



tripwalking said:


> Double check that the spark plug wires are all snapped down tight on the coils... It can be fidgety. Is there any noticeable clicking at the coils? ie. Electrical shorts you can hear?


That was my first thought as well, so I took the boots off of the terminals... haven't left it running long enough to check for shorts.

I've got my multimeter now, and I'm redoing the hot gluing of the Wires to the bottom of the Coilpacks. Once I'm done with that, I'm gonna keep it running this time and check each Coilpack post for spark.


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

Success. She is running on all 6 again. :laugh: Gonna take her for a spin her in a little bit.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Dude...that's weak. What was the deal???

and by the way....now that you've made a clean spot...you have to do the whole thing, now! :laugh:


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

vr6pilot said:


> Dude...that's weak. What was the deal???
> 
> and by the way....now that you've made a clean spot...you have to do the whole thing, now! :laugh:


I dunno if it was just a loose connection in the bottom of a coilpack... or if it just needed the deep press of the throttle that I gave it. Drove around town for an hour or so. Seems to run good. The misfire/hesitation/grumble at part throttle tip-in is 98% gone now. Seemed to progressively get better the longer that I drove it, as well.

And what do you mean by "do the whole thing"?


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## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

USMCFieldMP said:


> And what do you mean by "do the whole thing"?


Clean the entire engine and bay, now that you have clean parts installed


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

Oh, duuuuuuh. Haha... yeah. I've got a long trip coming up... planning on doing it after that.


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Glad to hear it's running well! Looks good with the ICM painted black, too.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Happy to hear its in the good. The next essential test is to let her sit overnight (so the engine is completely cold) and see if the problem reccurs at startup. Do post.


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

vr6pilot said:


> Happy to hear its in the good. The next essential test is to let her sit overnight (so the engine is completely cold) and see if the problem reccurs at startup. Do post.







46*F outside. It has never liked idling on a cold start... gotta hold the rpm's around 1000 for a minute, then it'll idle by itself. Otherwise it'll sputter out and die... like it did.


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## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

bump


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## Danielj-MKIV (Sep 22, 2010)

*Fuse?*

I was wondering if you can tell me what type of fuse that is being used on the msd coil pack and were i can get it? (Its the long fuse inside the white box with ingntion wire on each end)


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Wow...lurker status.

I know of no fuse. It sounds like you are referring to the resistor that some people have used in their setups. White rectangular thing about 2~3 inches long?


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

A week later, she's still running strong. Haven't had any problems with the MSD set-up.



Danielj-MKIV said:


> I was wondering if you can tell me what type of fuse that is being used on the msd coil pack and were i can get it? (Its the long fuse inside the white box with ingntion wire on each end)


Don't need it.


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## VRJordan (Oct 21, 2009)

just finished my install a few hours ago, and surprisingly initial start up went great. i hadn't even touched the car in about two weeks, it was about 34 degrees outside and snowing, and it just started up and ran fine. 



coils mounted on the bracket i made

wires are a little long


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## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

Update -- mine's running better than ever with the 3 Accel 140017 (1986-98 GM) Super DIS Coils. I did have one coil go bad (interestingly, just one of its two HT terminals developed an internal open circuit), but was able to get a next day replacement from the local Pep Boys. I permanently removed the resistor when replacing that coil, and all's been great for several months and thousands of miles


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## fookerbob (Nov 29, 2005)

:wave:


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

congrats, bob. 

and yeah, if you haven't read the whole thing....no resistor!!


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## VW NUTTS (Jun 12, 2003)

Anyone ever use the msd 8870? That's the base these coils plug into instead of male spade connectors which don't fit good. The bases have 4 wires coming out of it just use 2. I called msd today just to see if just two wires coils be used out if the four. I will pick the ones I ordered, tomorrow. Should make a neat job. Will see and post pics when done. Does add a bit more cost at $40 each.


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

I've never used the base, but they look like they add some thickness to the package though. 

I just found this: http://www.msdignition.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14615 

There are male spade terminals that fit fine... I've never had any disconnect from the coils in tens of thousands of miles.


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## VW NUTTS (Jun 12, 2003)

They do add thickness but the ease of install and neatness are very nice. They work great. Had keep the plugs gaped at 28-30 with the boost. Will Post a pic when I get a chance.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

I skipped them due to space limitations under the hood. Plus I was going for some originality and neatness. 

How much boost? I'm at 6 lbs and my gap is like .041.


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## VW NUTTS (Jun 12, 2003)

12-16 lbs. here are a couple of pics. works great easily taken apart for repairs.


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Clean!


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## itskmill06 (Dec 23, 2005)

good stuff! might do this in the future... after doublechecking everything


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

I've been having trouble with spark grounding out in the rain. I think the MSD Terminal boots aren't sealing with the wires all the way... and then the water is giving the spark a path to ground out to the hood/block. 

So I need to come up with a clean solution for that. I think I might just use ZIp-ties to fix it temporarily. If it works, then I know that is my problem for sure.


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## fookerbob (Nov 29, 2005)




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## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

www.FourSeasonTuning.com


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## koccorey (Jun 15, 2010)

*Help!! with MSD coil pack set-up.*

I just recently finished this set up with the bracket and new sparkplugs. The car misfires at idle and the car sounds like a go-kart. It stumbles for a minute when I give it gas. Overall there is an erratic idle and it sounds like the timing is off. I tried moving the sparkplug wires around but the same results no matter what. I checked the resistance for beach coil and it was about 5.6ohms each coil. Is there any other test I can do? Do these symptoms sound familiar to anyone who's fixed this? 

I've done just about all the do-it-yourself upgrades except cams and would really like to get my 95 passat wagon back on the road. 

Any help would be appreciated.


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## Nitestalkerz (Dec 8, 2006)

MSD's look kool, but I did the Ford coil conversion instead. Got the DUI coilpack that gives 45k and less hassle, and installed in less than 20 minutes.:laugh: MSD;s are nice, but fk that. U gotta mess with resitors, and run the chance of fking up something. props on it tho:beer:


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## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

koccorey said:


> I just recently finished this set up with the bracket and new sparkplugs. The car misfires at idle and the car sounds like a go-kart. It stumbles for a minute when I give it gas. Overall there is an erratic idle and it sounds like the timing is off. I tried moving the sparkplug wires around but the same results no matter what. I checked the resistance for beach coil and it was about 5.6ohms each coil. Is there any other test I can do? Do these symptoms sound familiar to anyone who's fixed this?
> 
> I've done just about all the do-it-yourself upgrades except cams and would really like to get my 95 passat wagon back on the road.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated.


Some coils get damaged in shipping and/or or simply defective. I've had a bad one that tested fine but gave intermittant trouble until it finally failed completely enough for me to figure it out. If it's not a bad wire or plug, then I'd suspect one of the coils. I'd try picking up one spare and swapping it in for each one until she smooths out.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

MSDs are red. 



ftw


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## koccorey (Jun 15, 2010)

*Help.*

Exactly how do you test the msd coils?


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Are you running a resistor? If so, for f**k's sake take it out. 
Otherwise, your prob sounds a lot like when I had a poor connection to my battery. Check your connections, grounds, and cables. Given the age of your car, the cables may need replacing in the interest of improving conductivity. What may have worked okay before may not now as the new coils pull more current.

TEST: Does the engine run more smoothly once you get it up above 1,500 rpm?
If so then it could be what I stated above as the alternator will begin putting out sufficient juice for proper running once it is sped up above idle.

good luck


----------



## koccorey (Jun 15, 2010)

*Help.*

I'm not running a resistor, and the connections are good, checked the voltage with a multi-meter. I also checked the harness voltage and it was aproximatley the same voltage as the battery. I'll try making a direct ground from the battery to the icm housing. I think maybe 1 and 6 are'nt firing which would mean a bad coil right? I really don't want to guess and just keep throwing money at it. I'll try looking into if MSD gives a way to test the coils. 

Appreciate the help. Let me know if anyone has anything else. With all the work I've done, I really want to get it back on the road. I'm planning on entering it into a few shows when the season starts back up.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

If one and six are bad, then it is probably the coil. Try moving that coil to the 2/5 position. If the problem moves with it...its the coil.


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## koccorey (Jun 15, 2010)

*Help*

Played with it a bit last night with the multi-meter and it looks like its a wiring issue. While I was checking the grounds I noticed when I checked for grounding at the bolts that hold the coils to the bracket and on two of the coils there was no ground on 1 side of both. When I moved the wiring that goes into the bottom of the coil the ground came on. So looks like I don't have good contact on two of the coils. I'll have to take evrything back apart because I used silicone to secure them into the coils. Is the a better spade connector to use or something besides the msd coil interfaces? I thought about using them but it looks like they would raise the coils up to high where the would rub against the hood.


----------



## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

koccorey said:


> Played with it a bit last night with the multi-meter and it looks like its a wiring issue. While I was checking the grounds I noticed when I checked for grounding at the bolts that hold the coils to the bracket and on two of the coils there was no ground on 1 side of both. When I moved the wiring that goes into the bottom of the coil the ground came on. So looks like I don't have good contact on two of the coils. I'll have to take evrything back apart because I used silicone to secure them into the coils. Is the a better spade connector to use or something besides the msd coil interfaces? I thought about using them but it looks like they would raise the coils up to high where the would rub against the hood.


I had that problem myself... poor wiring connection. That's my one real gripe with these coils. I used Hot Glue to hold mine in though. It took a couple times to get it just right... but I haven't had any problems in a couple weeks now... so I'm hoping they are gone for good.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

koccorey said:


> Played with it a bit last night with the multi-meter and it looks like its a wiring issue. While I was checking the grounds I noticed when I checked for grounding at the bolts that hold the coils to the bracket and on two of the coils there was no ground on 1 side of both. When I moved the wiring that goes into the bottom of the coil the ground came on. So looks like I don't have good contact on two of the coils. I'll have to take evrything back apart because I used silicone to secure them into the coils. Is the a better spade connector to use or something besides the msd coil interfaces? I thought about using them but it looks like they would raise the coils up to high where the would rub against the hood.



The wording of this post concerns me deeply. I want to be sure that you understand that there should be *no* "grounding" of the coils to the bracket. The coilpacks and connections should show infinite resistance between them and the bracket. If one of your coils has a "good ground" to the bracket....that is your problem. They cannot be allowed to touch. The coils are made of a non-conductive epoxy for this reason. The only ground should be between one side of each coil, thru it's respective wire, to the ground terminal on the ICM.


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## koccorey (Jun 15, 2010)

*Help.*

I thought of using hot glue but I thought they would come loose from the under hood temps. Anyone know how high the interfaces would raise the coils? It looks to be about an inch maybe an inch and a half.


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## koccorey (Jun 15, 2010)

vr6pilot said:


> The wording of this post concerns me deeply. I want to be sure that you understand that there should be *no* "grounding" of the coils to the bracket. The coilpacks and connections should show infinite resistance between them and the bracket. If one of your coils has a "good ground" to the bracket....that is your problem. They cannot be allowed to touch. The coils are made of a non-conductive epoxy for this reason. The only ground should be between one side of each coil, thru it's respective wire, to the ground terminal on the ICM.


I was talking about the bolts used to secure them to the bracket. I noticed the coils have a metal sleeve inside the holes that the bolts must pass thru. Maybe I'll try unbolting them and see how it runs that way I know for sure. Is there still no test that can be performed?


----------



## 12V_VR (Aug 11, 2010)

has anyone found a good set of spade terminals for the coils, i still cant find anything that will correctly fit inside the coil


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## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

koccorey said:


> I thought of using hot glue but I thought they would come loose from the under hood temps. Anyone know how high the interfaces would raise the coils? It looks to be about an inch maybe an inch and a half.


i used hot glue with no problems


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

koccorey said:


> I was talking about the bolts used to secure them to the bracket. I noticed the coils have a metal sleeve inside the holes that the bolts must pass thru. Maybe I'll try unbolting them and see how it runs that way I know for sure. Is there still no test that can be performed?


The sleeve is just for anti-crush... The only ground should be at the terminal, as was already said. The terminals I use have been used without glue, but feel free to glue them for extra security


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

3/16th inch width male spade terminals. Got mine at Lowe's. You can 'tin' them with solder which will make them a tad thicker. Plus, the solder is softer so the female slot inside the coils will bite into the spade slightly thus improving grip.


----------



## koccorey (Jun 15, 2010)

*Blown*

Well looks like I'm gonna have to buy new coilpacks and an ICM. I tried re-wiring everything but still got the the same results. When I looked inside the slots in 2 of the MSD coils I found out that 1 of the wire bridge contacts are broken (like a blown fuse). So since I don't know if the ICM did this or bad wiring I'm gonna replace everything since theirs no way for me to test the ICM.


----------



## VW NUTTS (Jun 12, 2003)

Mine still doing fine. Had a bad msd wire right out he box had a pin hole and it causes a miss in 3 rd gear and a steady miss after that. Changed the wire and problem went away. First pulled each plug the suspect wire going to #1 plug, plug Wassermann after 2 days of sitting and the other 5 plugs were all dry. That wet plug confirmed my suspicion. About that wire. All good now. Those interface bases are the way to go.


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

...or an electrically non-conductive mounting base. :thumbup::thumbup::beer:


----------



## koccorey (Jun 15, 2010)

vr6pilot said:


> ...or an electrically non-conductive mounting base. :thumbup::thumbup::beer:


Yeah, the coil bracket I got from fourseasons scratched up pretty easily. Are'nt these supposed to be powdercoated? If so its a pretty thin coating. I may go back over it with the DEI silicone exhaust spray paint and bake it. I've used this on a set of headers, an intake manifold and a valve cover and its pretty tough and it keeps heat out also.


----------



## VW NUTTS (Jun 12, 2003)

Vr6bracket.com $71 shipped.


----------



## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

Its vr6coilbracket.com... and that's where I got mine. Very good quality, paint is holding up well.


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

pwnage on 64. epic thread.


----------



## syntrix (Aug 20, 2000)

vr6pilot said:


> pwnage on 64. epic thread.


/unsubscribe lol


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## koccorey (Jun 15, 2010)

koccorey said:


> Well looks like I'm gonna have to buy new coilpacks and an ICM. I tried re-wiring everything but still got the the same results. When I looked inside the slots in 2 of the MSD coils I found out that 1 of the wire bridge contacts are broken (like a blown fuse). So since I don't know if the ICM did this or bad wiring I'm gonna replace everything since theirs no way for me to test the ICM.


Unfortunately my car is still doing the exact same thing after hooking up a pack a fellow vortexer sent me and changing a speed sensor that gave intermittent failure codes before. I'm gonna try switching out a few more sensors this weekend. If any one can help me out in anyway I'd appreciate it. I really would like to get the car running this weekend. 

Does anyone know where I can rent a code scanner for obd1?


----------



## Nitestalkerz (Dec 8, 2006)

People still fking with these coils? Do the ford conversion, and get the DUI upgrade. 45k per spark, and takes all 1/2 hour from start to end, and looks 100x better than the MSDead set up:thumbup:


----------



## VW NUTTS (Jun 12, 2003)

Ok, lets get the details and lets see some pics.


----------



## Nitestalkerz (Dec 8, 2006)

And if you want the red look. Pretty sure MSD makes this coil for the mustang too. But why bother . MSD is way infeior than DUI products.



Brand Davis Unified Ignition 
Manufacturer's Part Number 31738 
Part Type Ignition Coils 
Product Line Davis Unified Ignition Screamin' Demon Coils 
Summit Racing Part Number DUI-31738 

Coil Wire Attachment Female/Socket 
Coil Style Coil pack 
Coil Internal Construction Epoxy 
Coil Color Black 
Maximum Voltage 45,000 V 
Mounting Bracket Included No 
Coil Wire Included No 
Ballast Resistor Included No 
Coil Shape Square 
Height (in) 3.310 in. 
Length (in) 5.920 in. 
Width (in) 3.670 in. 
Quantity Sold individually. 
Notes Mounts in original factory bracket. 


The little devil in you will enjoy tormenting the competition with extreme Screamin' Demon coils from Performance Distributors. These coils allow you to widen your plug gaps up to a whopping .065 in. You get an intense spark through the entire rpm range to keep you "screaming" down the road without a loss of power. And your spark plugs stay cleaner longer! The brass terminals of these coils are more conductive than stock aluminum and resist corrosion longer, too. Demon coils are hot stuff and you'll need a better-than-stock set of wires to deliver that hotter spark to your plugs. So, turn up the heat on performance with Screamin' Demon coils from Performance Distributors.









And this is what powers my EDM vr6 check out vid..[video]http://s497.photobucket.com/albums/rr338/nitestalkerct76/?action=view&current=100_1821.mp4[/video]


----------



## MKIVRedline (Sep 10, 2009)

Is it a noticeable difference between the stock coil? Did you open up your plugs at all?

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk


----------



## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

Nitestalkerz said:


> People still fking with these coils? Do the ford conversion, and get the DUI upgrade. 45k per spark, and takes all 1/2 hour from start to end, and looks 100x better than the MSDead set up:thumbup:


REALLY considering selling my MSD set-up and doing the Ford Conversion. I'm SOOOOO tired of connections coming loose in the bottom of the coilpack. They'll run great for a month or two, and then one day out of the blue, it'll drop to 4 cylinders. The part that really pisses me off is that I can barely touch the troublesome wire and it'll jump back up to 6 cylinders.

Anyone have any recommendations on something else to hold the wires besides Hot Glue? I think it just becomes to pliable over time.


----------



## Nitestalkerz (Dec 8, 2006)

MKIVRedline said:


> Is it a noticeable difference between the stock coil? Did you open up your plugs at all?
> 
> Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk


The stock bosh coil is around 26,000 i think, someone correct me if wrong. The stock ford coilpack is like 39k witch right there is alot stronger. I pulled the end boot off the coil while it was running and the spark jump like 2 inches . As for my gap, I went to a healthy .035 from the stock .028. I guess with an all motor vr you can experament with bigger gaps , and FI vr's can do the same with a smaller gap, knowing the spark will be good. Dont get me wrong I like the MSD's but the hassel, and its always on your mind if they will blow. Least with this coil conversion, u can drive with almost no worry. Look for the Ford conversion on the forums to fill in any questions:beer:


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## MKIVRedline (Sep 10, 2009)

Nitestalkerz said:


> The stock bosh coil is around 26,000 i think, someone correct me if wrong. The stock ford coilpack is like 39k witch right there is alot stronger. I pulled the end boot off the coil while it was running and the spark jump like 2 inches . As for my gap, I went to a healthy .035 from the stock .028. I guess with an all motor vr you can experament with bigger gaps , and FI vr's can do the same with a smaller gap, knowing the spark will be good. Dont get me wrong I like the MSD's but the hassel, and its always on your mind if they will blow. Least with this coil conversion, u can drive with almost no worry. Look for the Ford conversion on the forums to fill in any questions:beer:


Alright, awesome, thanks for the answer man


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Wutevahs.


----------



## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

So what's everyone else using to hold the wires in? Because Hot Glue isn't cutting it. It seems like it just gets too pliable after about a month or so... and I don't think I have enough room to use the MSD bases.

I've considered trying something like, putting a nylon washer underneath the spade connector, but above the bracket... so that the Nylon Washer holds the connector in place. I might actually give that a try today.

Any other suggestions? I'm starting to wonder if my Coils just had loose connectors from the factory, or something. I'm starting to get really upset with these things. I think a heat shield under the coils to protect the hot glue from the heat of the radiator hoses would probably help me out too. I think I'll use that as a last ditch effort.


----------



## 12V_VR (Aug 11, 2010)

Nitestalkerz said:


> And if you want the red look. Pretty sure MSD makes this coil for the mustang too. But why bother . MSD is way infeior than DUI products.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Where can I find one and how much work is it compared to the msd's. I had a problem with my msd connections coming apart aswell I cleaned them and re-hot glued them, no probs so far...*knock on wood*


----------



## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Summit carries a similar piece, if not in fact that same one. The work for a "Ford" conversion is minimal compared to MSD.


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> Summit carries a similar piece, if not in fact that same one. The work for a "Ford" conversion is minimal compared to MSD.


Reading through the "How-To"... it looked like it was more work for the initial set-up.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

USMCFieldMP said:


> Reading through the "How-To"... it looked like it was more work for the initial set-up.


It's all perspective... The Ford conversion is no more labor intensive than the MSD. However considering that you don't need to fabricate/purchase a custom bracket or get "special plug wires" my vote is with the Ford. :thumbup:


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## VW NUTTS (Jun 12, 2003)

If keeping the wires connected in the msd coil is a problem, just get the bases that are made to go under the coils. Its very simple to wire one white wire from each base goes to the 12v termial on the icm then the other white wire from each base goes to each of the other icm terminal, one to one. No more problems with wires coming out of the coil.


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## Nitestalkerz (Dec 8, 2006)

Whats this hot glue Im hearing about? Hot glue is for arts in crafts


----------



## mk3pete (Jan 16, 2010)

Nitestalkerz said:


> Whats this hot glue Im hearing about? Hot glue is for arts in crafts


haha
not being rude but you would be silly use it!
think about how hot your motor gets its just going to melt it
use a heat resistant rtv or mastik:thumbup:


----------



## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

VW NUTTS said:


> If keeping the wires connected in the msd coil is a problem, just get the bases that are made to go under the coils. Its very simple to wire one white wire from each base goes to the 12v termial on the icm then the other white wire from each base goes to each of the other icm terminal, one to one. No more problems with wires coming out of the coil.


Not enough room under the hood. The bases would make the coils stick up too high, in my application, at least.



mk3pete said:


> haha
> not being rude but you would be silly use it!
> think about how hot your motor gets its just going to melt it
> use a heat resistant rtv or mastik:thumbup:


The Hot Glue doesn't melt... it just doesn't get stiff enough... that's the problem. Its too pliable. Many have used it with great success.


----------



## VW NUTTS (Jun 12, 2003)

Mine fits fine under the hood of my mk2. It is close but it has not touched the underside of the hood.


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

VW NUTTS said:


> Mine fits fine under the hood of my mk2. It is close but it has not touched the underside of the hood.


Maybe the person who swapped mine did something wrong. My hood is propped up in the rear... and it still used to rub the Valve Cover's Cover.

Notice the sweet JDM prop in the rear:












Notice the chunk missing:












And from looking at this... I just didn't think they'd fit with the bases... and its a lot of money to potentially WASTE if they don't fit. Maybe if my latest attempt doesn't work:


----------



## VW NUTTS (Jun 12, 2003)

Looks like your rear motor mount needs to be cut down about 3/4". If your rear subframe is a mk3 Jetta/ golf you have to cut the rear mount down to get motor to set level. Plus I have turn 2 mounts which are like the bfi green mounts. Look back one page on this tread mine sits level and I cut 3/4" off the rear mount, been that way since 2003. With all the people posting about the wires coming out the bases are the easiest way to go.


----------



## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

VW NUTTS said:


> Looks like your rear motor mount needs to be cut down about 3/4". If your rear subframe is a mk3 Jetta/ golf you have to cut the rear mount down to get motor to set level. Plus I have turn 2 mounts which are like the bfi green mounts. Look back one page on this tread mine sits level and I cut 3/4" off the rear mount, been that way since 2003. With all the people posting about the wires coming out the bases are the easiest way to go.


I see. I have no idea which subframe I've got. Pretty sure its a MK3 Passat one. I know its still got a MK2 Front Mount. I don't like buying other people's projects... but this was a near perfect running MK2 VR6 for $1,000.  Couldn't pass it up.

And I agree that it'd be 1000x's easier with the bases.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Have you tried to 'tin' the male spades with solder? It will make them thicker, resulting in a more snug fit into the female. Were it only so easy for humans.


----------



## VW NUTTS (Jun 12, 2003)

Passat rear frame wont bolt up. Passat front frame is what should be there or Corrado vr6. Yes, that was a good buy.


----------



## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

VW NUTTS said:


> Passat rear frame wont bolt up. Passat front frame is what should be there or Corrado vr6. Yes, that was a good buy.


Right, I misread the A2 VR6 FAQ Thread.

Pretty sure its the A3 K-Member & A-Arms because they sit pretty wide, which makes me think I have the +1" on each side, A3 set-up with the 5-Lug Swap. The motor and trans are out of a Passat.


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## VW NUTTS (Jun 12, 2003)

Take the rear mount out and cut 3/4" from the center post. Can be done easily. Support the motor, take the 4 bolts from the bracket bolted to rear of motor, take out the two 13mm head bolts that holds the mount in the cup take out as a unit, cut it off and put back in reverse order.


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## sundayshadow (Jun 28, 2010)

my only question is how would u attach say a 6a or 6al in this set up


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

Nitestalkerz said:


> And if you want the red look. Pretty sure MSD makes this coil for the mustang too. But why bother . MSD is way infeior than DUI products.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


had these coil packs on my mark 8... they worked well.


----------



## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

VRJordan said:


> just finished my install a few hours ago, and surprisingly initial start up went great. i hadn't even touched the car in about two weeks, it was about 34 degrees outside and snowing, and it just started up and ran fine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lmao whats with the Heineken intake!?


----------



## flylwsi (Oct 8, 2007)

so with the coilpack setup sitting upside down, and the connections "in", should i just go ahead and liberally apply rtv to the connector where it goes into the coilpack? 

or get some bigger connectors and crimp em on?


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## jocel66 (Oct 22, 2010)

Nitestalkerz said:


> And if you want the red look. Pretty sure MSD makes this coil for the mustang too. But why bother . MSD is way infeior than DUI products.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Anyone currently running this Coil on there VR??


----------



## Nitestalkerz (Dec 8, 2006)

me


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## VR6 GLX Man (May 20, 2008)

And this is what powers my EDM vr6 check out vid..[video]http://s497.photobucket.com/albums/rr338/nitestalkerct76/?action=view&current=100_1821.mp4[/video][/QUOTE]


Anyone got info on how this is setup compared to stock, not too familiar with all theses different setups


----------



## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

sundayshadow said:


> my only question is how would u attach say a 6a or 6al in this set up


wont work. you'd need the DIS-4


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

I mean this in the un-snarky-est way possible: it's legit to post your url because you're a forum sponsor, but psssst: you spelled it wrong :beer:


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

:laugh: *giggles*


----------



## Radioactiveman (May 13, 2010)

I recently removed my charger kit from my car. I am running the MSD coil set up, and have been running it for about 6 months. Anyways after the removal, I started the car and it was missing. So I made sure all the plug wires were seated, which they appeared to be. I thought that maybe it might be a clogged or stuck injector, because I put the stock ones back in after they had been sitting for almost a year. I started it back up, still misfiring, and reved it up to about 3k, there was a pop and now I have no spark coming from all three coils. There is power at the connector on the harness that feeds the coils, but no sparks from the coils. Could I have damaged all three??? Or is there something else that I am missing. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Also all three coils still show resistance at about 0.6 ohms if I remember correctly.


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

I suppose you could get new coils, try them out, and if it works great... If not, you could probably turn them over pretty quick on here. 
Not sure what else to suggest... Hope you get it worked out!


----------



## Radioactiveman (May 13, 2010)

It was the ICM. New ICM and the problem is solved.
Thanks


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Beauty!


----------



## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

I think some one asked this and it was never answered. Can a bad ICM kill just one coil or does it kill all three?


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

Decided to try some new things, so I'm selling my set-up, if anyone is interested. 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5291051-FS-Complete-MSD-Coilpack-Set-up


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

www.unsubscribed.com


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## KindaOEM (Apr 23, 2011)

Whats the thread that has the DIY for the Ford coil swap?


----------



## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

KindaOEM said:


> Whats the thread that has the DIY for the Ford coil swap?


www.lemonparty.org


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

KindaOEM said:


> Whats the thread that has the DIY for the Ford coil swap?


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4223032-Ford-Coil-Pack-on-VR6-with-Pics.

There's a bit more customization involved, imo. You'll probably need to have a Dremel available.

But I'm loving my Ford coilpack a lot.



boozy said:


> www.lemonparty.org


----------



## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

Oh the drunk posts are the best the day after


----------



## beaniepoper (Nov 1, 2007)

just did this to the vr i picked up. (ignore the ugly manifold for the moment)








runs nice and smooth again!


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Looks great!


----------



## beaniepoper (Nov 1, 2007)

thanks man.:beer: gotta figure out how to get the wires to stay down snug now..


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## beaniepoper (Nov 1, 2007)

eventually welding a 2.9 clone and polishing it. but until then


----------



## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

very nice.


----------



## beaniepoper (Nov 1, 2007)

:beer:tahnks


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## ricardo (Feb 19, 1999)

Nitestalkerz said:


> People still fking with these coils? Do the ford conversion, and get the DUI upgrade. 45k per spark, and takes all 1/2 hour from start to end, and looks 100x better than the MSDead set up:thumbup:


 
use the 2003+ Ford coilpack and its easier than the above pre-2003 coilpack..just cut the base a bit for the sparkplug wires to fit nicely connect Ford connector, splice wires and youre done :thumbup::laugh:opcorn:


----------



## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

www.FourSeasonTuning.com


----------



## Ultramagnus0001 (Jun 22, 2006)

Nitestalkerz said:


> And if you want the red look. Pretty sure MSD makes this coil for the mustang too. But why bother . MSD is way infeior than DUI products.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Anyone have any tips on using this with the VW VR6 --edit--
After I decided to use my brain, I remembered these threads from the last time I had to epoxy my coil pack.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4223032
http://www.gti-vr6.net/library/engine/using_1999_Ford_Windstar_3.8L_coil_pack/


----------



## masterkdrifter (Dec 30, 2010)

Have any of you "built" the spark plug wires?


----------



## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

masterkdrifter said:


> Have any of you "built" the spark plug wires?


 Yes. Its simple. Cut. Strip. Crimp. Cover.


----------



## Ultramagnus0001 (Jun 22, 2006)

USMCFieldMP said:


> Yes. Its simple. Cut. Strip. Crimp. Cover.


 How do you crimp the shiny part the goes to the spark plug? Where can I get that shiny part? The coilpack side sounds easy.


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## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

Ultramagnus0001 said:


> How do you crimp the shiny part the goes to the spark plug? Where can I get that shiny part? The coilpack side sounds easy.


 I run these- http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-3301/?rtype=10


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## masterkdrifter (Dec 30, 2010)

Honestly, im afraid of cutting and crimping 70 dollar wires. I think im just being extra, but it dont want to ruin this.


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## Ultramagnus0001 (Jun 22, 2006)

masterkdrifter said:


> Honestly, im afraid of cutting and crimping 70 dollar wires. I think im just being extra, but it dont want to ruin this.


 I'm probably gonna just buy this, but I was hoping to reuse the wires I have now. I think after cutting them it might get too short.


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## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

Ultramagnus0001 said:


> I'm probably gonna just buy this, but I was hoping to reuse the wires I have now. I think after cutting them it might get too short.


 if you have a speed shop near you, you can buy msd wire by the foot and both ends. MSD makes a crimping tool but it's a little costly so i'd ask the speed shop to borrow it or have them do it. that is if they have one.


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Pliers work fine if you take your time and do it right.


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## Ultramagnus0001 (Jun 22, 2006)

boozy said:


> if you have a speed shop near you, you can buy msd wire by the foot and both ends. MSD makes a crimping tool but it's a little costly so i'd ask the speed shop to borrow it or have them do it. that is if they have one.


How would I crimp the part with the resistor(shiny part that goes on the spark plug) on to the new wire? 
I assume it's like putting an end to RG6 TV cable


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

If you are worried about screwing up the wires... just order premade wires from Four Season Tuning.


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## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

or look at my sig...


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## VRRRRR6 (Jul 26, 2007)

*Crimping ignition wires*

I'm planning on using the Ford coil. I was thinking of making some ignition wires, but the spark plug end seems to be an issue. If you have new ends like they sell here http://www.autopartsway.com/PartLis...rk_Plug_Connector,_Non-resistor/pagenum1/tabS

how do you crimp them? This is a BIG question! I took apart an old OEM ignition wire that I had lying around, and found that the the shiny metal sheath can be removed fairly easily, but once you've taken that off, you're faced with an ignition wire end encased in black rubber. The black rubber is very difficult/impossible to remove intact. I had to cut it off. Once past that, you'll find the part that is crimped to the wire is encased in a plastic insulator that can't be removed. So, you can't do anything with it! Does anyone know if the wire ends sold at the above link are different in some manner from OEM, ie. can they be crimped easily by the average schmo? Or do they require special tools which are far out of the ordinary? And does anyone know how to crimp them onto bulk-style ignition wire- with pics!?


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

The vr6 ignition wire set from VW will come with the spark plug terminals crimped on. The coil terminals are easy to crimp to the wires.


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## Audi_SoupeGT (Oct 9, 2008)

Very Helpful Thanks!!:beer::beer:


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Here's the actual MSD instructions for crimping the terminals.


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## Em1TypeR (May 24, 2010)

just did mine. picked up a coil at the local scrapyard from a ford that looked like it had been replaced on that vehicle.  $20


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## Radioactiveman (May 13, 2010)

*Take this off my hands*

I have an msd set up for sale just need your ICM. I sold the car, and removed this before I did. All three coils ohm at 13.5 if I remember correctly. Wires and bracket are from four seasons, and the coils from summitt.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...oil-Set-Up-Everything-you-need-except-the-ICM


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## koccorey (Jun 15, 2010)

koccorey said:


> Unfortunately my car is still doing the exact same thing after hooking up a pack a fellow vortexer sent me and changing a speed sensor that gave intermittent failure codes before. I'm gonna try switching out a few more sensors this weekend. If any one can help me out in anyway I'd appreciate it. I really would like to get the car running this weekend.
> 
> Does anyone know where I can rent a code scanner for obd1?


Well, I decided to give this a go again. I went to the junk yard and got two ICM's. I came home and tested them on my car and they work. The crazy thing is the ICM I used before works also when hooked up to the stock coils and all the ICM's gave the same ohm reading about 3.5 ohm's or so. So that leaves me to believe that the MSD coils are bad or maybe bad wiring. I tested the MSD coils that I originally used for the set-up and also tested a brand new set I have and they all gave around 5.63 ohm resistance when tested at the spark plug terminals so I'm thinking there good. I'm gonna take the wires out and see if I can get better contact. If I'm missing something would someone point me in the right direction? Thanks for any help.


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## koccorey (Jun 15, 2010)

After looking thru this thread again I think I may have figured out my problem. I've read that it does'nt matter what side you wire the positive and negative on the MSD coils but after looking at a few set ups on here I think it will effect the firing order so what I'm going to do is switch the negative and postive wires and see how it runs then.


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## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

koccorey said:


> After looking thru this thread again I think I may have figured out my problem. I've read that it does'nt matter what side you wire the positive and negative on the MSD coils but after looking at a few set ups on here I think it will effect the firing order so what I'm going to do is switch the negative and postive wires and see how it runs then.


I don't think +/- could affect the firing order, but I would try to do all 3 the same. I've been having pretty good luck with my 3 accel coils (without resistor), which seemed to spec out better than the MSDs. I have had one issue where one output terminal (of 2) on one coil (of 3) has failed twice in about 2 years -- same coil and terminal both times (the furthest back). I suspect an installation or plug wire issue, possibly aggravated by driving fast in the rain, but it's hard to tell for sure.


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## koccorey (Jun 15, 2010)

After testing everything and everything turning out to be working (ICM's & coilpacks) I figured I'd try this with new wiring. If the + and - don't effect the firing order the only other thing I think it could be is a connection problem with the wiring. So I'm gonna re-wire it and use different spade connectors to go into the bottom of the coils so I'm sure there making contact. I should have this done this evening so hopefully I'll have this set-up working.

Thanks


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

+ and - doesn't matter, as long as all three are wired the same.


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## koccorey (Jun 15, 2010)

Well I finally got this working. Rewired it and it started right up! My problem was that the spade terminals were'nt making full contact in the bottom of the coils. I had to widen the openings a little with my dremmel so they would seat all the way in the terminals. I have'nt driven with this set-up yet but it seemed to idle better. I have them set-up on the aftermarket coil mount bracket that everyone uses but I want to see if I can mount them in the stock location so I can put all my engine covers on for a clean look. I was looking into ways to do this last night and I saw that I could put three bolts thru the inside of the original ICM/coil housing were the stock coils bolt in. That way I can put the ICM/coil housing back in the stock location first then bolt the MSD's to the ICM/coil housing so everythings in the stock location. 

Question for people using the MSD ignition box in addition to the MSD coils, have you noticed a difference? What are your impressions with this set-up?

Thanks everybody for the help and suggestions. I'm glad I finally got this working.


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## koccorey (Jun 15, 2010)

koccorey said:


> Well I finally got this working. Rewired it and it started right up! My problem was that the spade terminals were'nt making full contact in the bottom of the coils. I had to widen the openings a little with my dremmel so they would seat all the way in the terminals. I have'nt driven with this set-up yet but it seemed to idle better. I have them set-up on the aftermarket coil mount bracket that everyone uses but I want to see if I can mount them in the stock location so I can put all my engine covers on for a clean look. I was looking into ways to do this last night and I saw that I could put three bolts thru the inside of the original ICM/coil housing were the stock coils bolt in. That way I can put the ICM/coil housing back in the stock location first then bolt the MSD's to the ICM/coil housing so everythings in the stock location.
> 
> Question for people using the MSD ignition box in addition to the MSD coils, have you noticed a difference? What are your impressions with this set-up?
> 
> Thanks everybody for the help and suggestions. I'm glad I finally got this working.


Anyone?


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## koccorey (Jun 15, 2010)

Well started driving the car with this set up the last few days. I noticed a better idle and better throttle response so far. Can't really say if the mileage is better yet because lately I've been rushing everywhere. I ended up leaving them on the aftermarket coil bracket for now. I mounted them with the sparkplug terminals facing the driver side. I was able to get the plastic coil cover on this way with a little trimming to clear the MSD's. I'm using the factory 7mm Mk4 wires and Bosch Iridium Fuzion 4 tip plugs right now but I plan on trying this set up with the Denso Iridium's since I've seen good performance with them before. I've never tried the factory vr6 plugs since I had the car. Which plugs work best with this set-up?


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## koccorey (Jun 15, 2010)

Is everybody moving over to the ford coilpacks or what?


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## zcg666 (Feb 26, 2010)

Well im still watchimg this one. Till everyone works all the kinks out before i take a shot at it. or until i have enough money to dump on blown ICMs. Just got through with installing the new timing chains and tensioners and clutch. Vr6 beast running smooth as hell now dont wanna **** it up yet


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## koccorey (Jun 15, 2010)

I hear you man. I had tried this before a few months earlier with no success so I put the project on the shelf and did my timing chains, 262 cams and a few other things. You'll realize it's really not that complicated once you get it done. Just make sure everything is well insulated by using high quality parts ; silicone instead of hot glue, use heat shrink tubing on the ends so there's no chance of things arcing also use some liquid electrical tape and make sure you have good contacts in the bottom of the coils and you should be good.


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## camo_vw (Oct 10, 2004)

my coilpack was dying so i picked up an msd conversion(was already assembled)...
Installed it...









Went to start it, then nothing...had my firing order wrong(followed the normal order just had them on the wrong posts)

took it for a spin(after the throttle body adaptation period) and it was smooth until i was getting on the freeway and buck nasty started. miss firing worse than my oem cracked coilpack(luckily i had all the old bits in my car and swapped it all back on the side of the freeway in the dark). started up. guess i will be looking into why i am having problems tomorrow..


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## USMCFieldMP (Jun 26, 2008)

This reminds me of why I'm glad I run the Ford Coilpack now. I got so tired of hunting down problems on the MSD's.


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## camo_vw (Oct 10, 2004)

turned out to be a bad ICM 

purrs like a kitten again


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## koccorey (Jun 15, 2010)

camo_vw said:


> turned out to be a bad ICM
> 
> purrs like a kitten again


 That's cool man. I have'nt had any problems so far. I bought a set of factory ngk platinum plugs I want to try soon as soon as I learn how to properly gap them wider. I'm thinking about taking the gap to 0.4.


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## GTI Jay (Feb 11, 2010)

I see many people have been having problems with this setup. I really don't understand why. I installed this setup to my car back in november. Just thought I'd give my input here since I found the msd setup here and used the information and made it work for me. My current setup is Bosch iridium plugs stock gap, autotech shock therapy wires and msd coils with a bracket from vr6coilbracket.com. Very good quality bracket. During the installation I used the msd wire crimping tool to get the msd boots on the end of the shock therapy wires. I can honestly say that everything went perfectly for me. Disassembled the stock coil as described, wired everything up as described. I did NOT use a resistor as mentioned at the beginning of the thread. When everything was all assembeld I reset the ecu by disconnecting the battery and touching the 2 terminals together with ignition in the on position to drain any existing power in the system so the ecu can re learn everything from scratch. Connected the battery and it started instantly. Idled smoother than ever rpms revved and fell faster than ever. Pulls quite a bit harder at higher rpm it seems like. Stock coilpack was replaced once before my last stock coil. I have never had one problem with this. Ever since I installed it about 6,000 miles now I have never once had a problem with a misfire due to the coils/wires after this install. Pretty reliable so far for me. I have to say I am quite happy that I found this thread and successfully did this. Just kindof wondering why people are so reluctant to try it because they are afraid it's unreliable? Quite happy with the performance. I'd say it was worth my time and $$. Don't really see why people are scared of cutting 70$ wires where I cut 150$ wires and I have never once done something like this. It was really quite easy. Thank you very much for this thread. hope I helped someone out.


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## 8716v (Sep 10, 2006)

looking forward to doing this. got my msd's on order. will make my own bracket at work, then on the car it will go.


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Glad it worked out for you jay! I drove my vr with msds daily too, never had one issue either. It should be completely reliable if installed correctly (just like anything else!).


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## dubguy420 (Apr 15, 2011)

Were can I buy just an Icm?


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## atoson (Dec 29, 2002)

bump and I will read this topic latter.


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## HAPPYnotEMO (Jul 29, 2004)

in to track. Might be doing this soon


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## HAPPYnotEMO (Jul 29, 2004)

I want to note that after pricing it all to "DIY" you cant beat the price on the kit (without wires) from vr6coilbracket.com unless there is something I missed somewhere. 

I haven't purchased anything yet, and no I have no association with the owner/friends/relatives. 
This is obviously a very good step to make when trying to get the most out of your motor. 
Hitting a point where you can start tuning with trial and error with different plugs for the a/f ratio is awesome :beer:


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## GTI Jay (Feb 11, 2010)

I have been reading this quite a bit I might have missed this but what are plugs are you guys running? I currently have Bosch iridium gapped at .055 and it's running great. And as far as iridium plugs go I know they tend to last the longest. What would be the best spark plug for use with the msd coils as far as brand, electrode metal type, heat range? I have no problems whatsoever with my setup currently. Just looking to see if there is anything else I could do to get more out of it. I was thinking about going with the stock ngk plugs and open the gap up but I don't know if it would make much difference. Someone have any info on this?


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## K1vr6 (May 27, 2010)

Some here is using the Msd 62153 dis 4 please I need info


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## 00mk4 (Oct 5, 2010)

just finish this swap on my mk4 huge improvement!


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Any pics?


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## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

Success!! Got mine finally done after having the parts for over a year and the ride is much much smoother pics










It's a bit messy and needs to be cleaned up some but it's done


Sent from space through a satellite


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## jungle (May 6, 2002)

i'd really like to see a back to back comparison....it sounds like most of you who have good things to say about this conversion are going from a bad oem coil pack to this one....and well of coarse the car will seem better.


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## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

jungle said:


> i'd really like to see a back to back comparison....it sounds like most of you who have good things to say about this conversion are going from a bad oem coil pack to this one....and well of coarse the car will seem better.


 My old coil pack ran just fine but it was an upgrad


Sent from space through a satellite


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## DigitalN. (Sep 14, 2007)

Just finished putting in my MSD kit, super easy to do. I bought the bracket and MSD wire ends from the VR6 bracket site, and all I had to do was make my own wiring since that is easy enough for me. Took me about an all to put it all together, and it runs like a top now! Going to space out my spark plugs this weekend and see how big of a gap I can start running as well.


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## alex1.9tjet (Feb 23, 2009)

just finished mine on friday and the car pull like hell at 10 psi. It seems to pull better at 10psi compare to 15 psi with the boost controller. I have to sort that thing out, too many changes at a time. 
NGK BKR7E gapped at 0.40 with 8.5msd wires and msd coil from keystone. Did my own bracket in S.S. and put it over the brake booster with some heat sink under the bracket. 
Didn't use a resistor at all since I had the same resistance on the oem coil and on the msd. The car runs at 14.6 on the wideband on idle, but I'm having fuel issues with the stock mk4 fuel pump over 12 psi and 4500 rpm in 3rd gear, searching for an in-tank walbro to save the situation. 

Some times to times, seems to have a little misfire around 80-100 km/h but I need to re-route the wire since I don't like the look of it. I'll probably shorten some of the wires, change to a tighter booth and check if it does the job. 

But damn the car run even better than with the stock non-cracked coilpack 

Thanks for the write-up.


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## molesky2.slow (Oct 17, 2011)

*need some help*

i was wondering if it was possible to run the msd set up in my 92 vr6 corrado. let me know if you can help me out


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## molesky2.slow (Oct 17, 2011)

just confused because all the pictures online are of distributerless vr's


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

You can use a single tower MSD coil instead of your stock dizzy one if you take the ignition amp off the stock coil (bolts are under the cover). You will need a custom coil wire with a GM/Ford/whatever end.


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## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

So I've just run into issues with my 1/6 coil which I see is the usually screw up coil. I changed out to another icm and still have no spark to 1/6. The problem has been intermittent for about a week now and more presistance when hot out. 

I swapped the control for 1/6 and the wires to rule the coil out. The problem follows the coils. I've been running it for about a year without the resistor.  

I also noticed the bolt for the cam sensor was missing so I used a spare off a parts engine. Not to sure if that's gonna mess it up as its localized to one coil. 

At this point I'm guessing it's a good assumption that the signal from the ecu is being messed up. Anyone agree with me. Pretty pissed now so I'm gonna go get drunk


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## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

Whoa.

I can't believe how big this thread has gotten.

Did anyone ever figure out a way to prevent the coils from exploding?

I got rid of my VR almost 4 years ago


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## RadoCC (Apr 8, 2003)

masterqaz said:


> So I've just run into issues with my 1/6 coil which I see is the usually screw up coil. I changed out to another icm and still have no spark to 1/6. The problem has been intermittent for about a week now and more presistance when hot out.
> 
> I swapped the control for 1/6 and the wires to rule the coil out. The problem follows the coils. I've been running it for about a year without the resistor.
> 
> ...


I'm running into a similar issue with the 1/6 coil. Constant misfires. I swapped and replaced that coil, and nothing. I think I'm going back to OEM. I've only had this for a couple of years, and already having issues. The stock coil lasted me several years.


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## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

molesky2.slow said:


> i was wondering if it was possible to run the msd set up in my 92 vr6 corrado. let me know if you can help me out


If your engine is with a distributor then you won't be able to run MSD ignition just like that. You would have to get another engine that uses coil packs along with wiring harness and swap, but then again why swap a distributor VR for a coil pack VR. I love distributor VR's. The have double row upper timing chains and that alone is a very great advantage over the coil pack VR's that use single row upper timing chains. I had a 1992 Golf VR6 with distributor and that car was mean!! She revved up way faster than my AFP. And she would breathe fire from the exhaust like a dragon!!


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## dub_m_d (Apr 14, 2013)

Just ordered my MSD goodies! This thread has been so much help :thumbup: still gotta figure out (read more) the resistor option. I hate electronics so I cant decide if I want to take the risk and run the setup without it or take the time to get one and wire it in.


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## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

RadoCC said:


> I'm running into a similar issue with the 1/6 coil. Constant misfires. I swapped and replaced that coil, and nothing. I think I'm going back to OEM. I've only had this for a couple of years, and already having issues. The stock coil lasted me several years.


I'm glad to hear this!! Very glad!! Stock OEM Coilpacks are the best. Stop whining about the price because guess what, you own a VW not a Toyota, Hyundai, Mazda or FORD.


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## Bubble Block (Sep 19, 2009)

*I know, no one asked me, but...*



Boogie_manVR6 said:


> I'm glad to hear this!! Very glad!! Stock OEM Coilpacks are the best. Stop whining about the price because guess what, you own a VW not a Toyota, Hyundai, Mazda or FORD.


I have to agree with Bookie_manVR6 on this one :thumbup:


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## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

Bubble Block said:


> I have to agree with Bookie_manVR6 on this one :thumbup:


Thanks man, by the way it's Boogie_ManVR6, I'm not a Bookie!! :laugh:eace:


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## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

FourSeasonTuning.com said:


> Coil pack bracket for MSD coils.
> 
> http://www.fourseasontuning.com/product.php?id=240&product_code=gruven500


opcorn::thumbup::laugh:


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## RadoCC (Apr 8, 2003)

Boogie_manVR6 said:


> I'm glad to hear this!! Very glad!! Stock OEM Coilpacks are the best. Stop whining about the price because guess what, you own a VW not a Toyota, Hyundai, Mazda or FORD.


Lesson learned.


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## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

RadoCC said:


> Lesson learned.


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

FourSeasonTuning.com said:


> Coil pack bracket for MSD coils.
> 
> http://www.fourseasontuning.com/product.php?id=240&product_code=gruven500


opcorn:eace:


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## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

Coil pack bracket for MSD coils.

http://www.fourseasontuning.com/gruven500-msd-coil-pack-bracket.html


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## Rapid Decompression (Dec 5, 2004)

I was under the impression for doing this mod..was not so much to save cost, but to have the added benefits of a high powered coil. Like for forced induction or high compression builds. Just saying..


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## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

Replacement coil packs on eBay for an affordable price and not $300.00

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230867552405?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

eace:


----------



## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

Rapid Decompression said:


> I was under the impression for doing this mod..was not so much to save cost, but to have the added benefits of a high powered coil. Like for forced induction or high compression builds. Just saying..


I always learned that MSD Ignition works better with Forced Induction applications due to the fact that you need more voltage to create a bigger spark, along with the multiple spark discharge at lower RPM's to help burn the A/F mixture and to avoid running rich.
I'm daring everyone out there that has a FORD coil pack on a N/A VR6 motor to produce some dyno results so that everyone can see that it's not worth the hassle to swap to a FORD coil pack on a N/A VR6 motor. Doesn't matter if you have cams or not just bring the proof to the table, after all numbers don't lie but people do.
The MSD might give a bit better result than the FORD because of it's functionality but it's not going to be a major improvement on a N/A VR6 motor. Yes you will get better throttle response and save maybe 1 to 3 MPG but that's it.
So get cracking boys and let's see what the numbers will tell.
Until then to me it's just pure :bs:


----------



## Rapid Decompression (Dec 5, 2004)

Boogie_manVR6 said:


> I always learned that MSD Ignition works better with Forced Induction applications due to the fact that you need more voltage to create a bigger spark, along with the multiple spark discharge at lower RPM's to help burn the A/F mixture and to avoid running rich.
> I'm daring everyone out there that has a FORD coil pack on a N/A VR6 motor to produce some dyno results so that everyone can see that it's not worth the hassle to swap to a FORD coil pack on a N/A VR6 motor. Doesn't matter if you have cams or not just bring the proof to the table, after all numbers don't lie but people do.
> The MSD might give a bit better result than the FORD because of it's functionality but it's not going to be a major improvement on a N/A VR6 motor. Yes you will get better throttle response and save maybe 1 to 3 MPG but that's it.
> So get cracking boys and let's see what the numbers will tell.
> Until then to me it's just pure :bs:


Ok...but it does not look like anyone cares what you have to say though. :laugh:


You are welcome to look through the thread and see documented info regarding the gap they can use. Not sure what cams have to do with it...I guess you are learning. And again...I think it is more about forced induction and the OEM units not being able to provide enough spark. Not so much a "power adder"


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## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

Rapid Decompression said:


> Ok...but it does not look like anyone cares what you have to say though. :laugh:
> 
> 
> You are welcome to look through the thread and see documented info regarding the gap they can use. Not sure what cams have to do with it...I guess you are learning. And again...I think it is more about forced induction and the OEM units not being able to provide enough spark. Not so much a "power adder"



I've learned over the years working on VW VR6 engines (AAA's, ABV & AFP mostly) is that there are many ways that OEM VW coil packs fail or get burnt up, but the most common causes that I have encountered are neglect of replacing the valve cover seal which causes hot oil to slowly work its way on the coil packs or by poor electrical connections or wire harness breaks. New connectors should be installed when replacing ignition coils especially if more than one coil pack fails. A loose connection can cause a voltage spike which may destroy or burn up the coil pack as well and can cause for failure of neighboring coil packs as well because wire harness connections may become bridged together due exposed wires, etc.
With regards to gaps, cams and thinking, obviously we all know that an OEM coil pack has it's limitations and the anyone out there knows that forced induction requires more fuel, more fuel requires more spark, more spark requires, more juice etc. What about the N/A engines? That's what I was referring to.
Anyways coil pack failure is mostly caused by neglect of replacing the valve cover seal or poor electrical connections or wire harness breaks. Also a loose connection can cause a voltage spike which may destroy or burn up the coil pack. Neighboring coil packs can also fail because wire harness connections bridging together due to exposed wires.
And on a final not since you said it's not so much a "power adder", what's the rave about these Ford Coil Packs?
Oh they're cheap, affordable, provide better gas mileage and throttle response and some even claim that their car just sounded different and drove better.
Oh well, yeah.


----------



## Rapid Decompression (Dec 5, 2004)

Boogie_manVR6 said:


> I've learned over the years working on VW VR6 engines (AAA's, ABV & AFP mostly) is that there are many ways that OEM VW coil packs fail or get burnt up, but the most common causes that I have encountered are neglect of replacing the valve cover seal which causes hot oil to slowly work its way on the coil packs or by poor electrical connections or wire harness breaks. New connectors should be installed when replacing ignition coils especially if more than one coil pack fails. A loose connection can cause a voltage spike which may destroy or burn up the coil pack as well and can cause for failure of neighboring coil packs as well because wire harness connections may become bridged together due exposed wires, etc.
> With regards to gaps, cams and thinking, obviously we all know that an OEM coil pack has it's limitations and the anyone out there knows that forced induction requires more fuel, more fuel requires more spark, more spark requires, more juice etc. What about the N/A engines? That's what I was referring to.
> Anyways coil pack failure is mostly caused by neglect of replacing the valve cover seal or poor electrical connections or wire harness breaks. Also a loose connection can cause a voltage spike which may destroy or burn up the coil pack. Neighboring coil packs can also fail because wire harness connections bridging together due to exposed wires.
> And on a final not since you said it's not so much a "power adder", what's the rave about these Ford Coil Packs?
> ...




Yeah..oh well. I gotta block this guy. This is by far one of the most foolish and tail chasing trolls I have seen in a while.


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## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

Rapid Decompression said:


> Yeah..oh well. I gotta block this guy. This is by far one of the most foolish and tail chasing trolls I have seen in a while.


 :screwy:

Only a troll like you yourself because you're responding to all of my posts like it's your mission to send a message.
You can block me because that only shows your arrogance and prejudice towards other people. 
I never asked you for your input nor opinion anyways so good riddens.


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## trillsx88 (Nov 27, 2007)

Boogie_manVR6 said:


> Replacement coil packs on eBay for an affordable price and not $300.00
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/230867552405?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> 
> eace:


Will this work for mk3?


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## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

trillsx88 said:


> Will this work for mk3?


That specific one in the link is for a MK4 VR6, which can work on a MK3 VR6 but you will need to change the pug that goes into the Ignition Control Module.


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## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

Seven years and going strong! Holy Moly!

Anyone ever figure out why they sometimes blow, and sometimes go?

I miss my VR


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## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

Cubix said:


> Seven years and going strong! Holy Moly!
> 
> Anyone ever figure out why they sometimes blow, and sometimes go?
> 
> I miss my VR


One reason why coil packs go bad is because of the valve cover seal leaking oil and owners being negligent to replace the seal before it gets worse. Once the coil pack doesn't get any HOT OIL or any other OIL at all it can last you for life basically. Also you must not touch or work around the coil pack when engine is still warm because the heat soak can make the parts weak and brittle. Always work on a cool engine when working around that area, prevention is better than cure.
I'm still running on my OEM coil pack in a 2001 VW GTI GLX and not 1 issue up to this date. I'm just waiting to see how long it will really last, 97K miles and counting.


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

I don't think I've ever seen an oil line going to the coil pack... . Do you mean the valve cover can leak oil on to the coil pack and that causes failure?


Sent from a product designed in California.


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## Boogie_manVR6 (Dec 31, 2013)

tripwalking said:


> I don't think I've ever seen an oil line going to the coil pack... . Do you mean the valve cover can leak oil on to the coil pack and that causes failure?
> 
> 
> Sent from a product designed in California.



Well guess you haven't seen it all!! If you are a person that doesn't neglect your engine then you won't see this either. I've seen bad valve cover seals literally flow oil out of the head and onto the coil pack and sparkplugs on 12 valve engines. These are like endurance engines, just check the oil and top off if necessary and let's keep driving it until she blows apart.
So yes I've even seen MK5 R32's with a bit over 80K miles and the valve cover seal is already slowly sweating/ bleeding the oil out of the head.

Sent from a product designed in California, but made in CHINA!!:laugh:


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## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

And time to unsubscribe now, to much annoying advertisement bumps


Sent from space through a satellite


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Still running solid since August, 2010.

As for the new argument: my feeling about the mod is that the MSD stacks might be more reliable than the stock crackers and if one should go out, you can replace _just that one_ for a lot less than a complete stock unit. No frustrating intermittent running issues when its wet out and you are just discovering your pack has hairline cracks in it. I was turbo...now I'm not. Car just runs great. No CELs, no misfires.


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Same here... Most of the time since 2007 has been a daily driven vr with msd. Zero issues.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

tripwalking said:


> Same here... Most of the time since 2007 has been a daily driven vr with msd. Zero issues.


trip...are you an original owner with that car?


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

No, it went through (I think) blackflygti, Dreamstate, and audiphile before I got it. I installed the 8224s when Rick still had it. The first car I did msd on was my black mkiv Jetta. 
Do you know the Golf?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

I do not


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## noskeh (Mar 11, 2004)

Just want to say I used to run a stock coilpack and when I went turbo at 7psi I would get spark blow out. I now run the Davis Unified with Bkr7eIX-11 (44mm Gap) at 12 psi and have absolutely no issues. Avg 25mpg too.
I run the plug wires from fourseasons also.


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## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

www.FourSeasonTuning.com


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

is "spark blow out" even real? Its a spark, not a bic lighter.


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

I think it happens when you run less than a 4.4 cm plug gap.


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## noskeh (Mar 11, 2004)

vr6pilot said:


> is "spark blow out" even real? Its a spark, not a bic lighter.


Sure feels real when you get into boost and all of a sudden your car spudders and pings like all hell. But if you've never driven a turbo VR you would have no idea what im talking about I guess.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Santa Claus feels real when there's presents under the tree. And I did own a turbo VR, thank you very much, but I wouldn't need to in order to understand that the air velocity inside the combustion chamber is approximately zero when the spark plug fires. So, lesson to you - owning a turbo does not equate to understanding one. Sounds to me like your problem is (was) more related to octane or tuning as forced induction does raise compression.


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Lighten up noskeh  I think he was joking... I certainly was. We know what you mean


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Fourseasontuning.com


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## noskeh (Mar 11, 2004)

Santa claus never feels real, but then maybe that's just me. The whole owning a turbo VR was just to prove my point as most other cars don't seem to have weak coilpacks like ours.
Funny thing actually happened today my ICM went out on my modded coilpack had to barrow a stocker until my new one came from worldpac past 7psi it was back to pinging/sputtering. Got the new ICM modded it for my davis coilpack and what do you know 12psi all day no problems. If that's tunning and fuel related then I guess you are right I know nothing about a turbo car.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

I never said you knew "nothing". 
What I AM saying is that your reply above was the most pretentious douchebaggery I've seen on the vortex in a long time and, as you know, that's saying a lot. Made further amusing that you fired it at the wrong guy. Easy to see, within this very thread, that I was running a turbo VR. 
Bottom line: There is no such thing as spark blow-out. Your problem lies elsewhere. I would have been nicer about it if you weren't such a toole.


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

P.S. fourseasontuning.com


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

tripwalking said:


> P.S. fourseasontuning.com
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Fourseasontuning.com


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

About time. 


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Four season threadbomber dot com


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## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

vr6pilot said:


> Four season threadbomber dot com


www.fourseasontuning.com :laugh:


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Might as well change the title of the thread... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

agreed. think I'm gonna change it to "unsubscribed".


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## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

Oh SCHNAPPPPP This thread is still here??? Let me load up my guns!


There were some conversations related to premature coil failure and some people started adding resistors in series to lower the voltage to the coils. After some long careful observations and testing, the issue with cracks and burned up MSD or Accel coils is related to the amount of HEAT!!!

Quick Fix: Install nylon spacers between the coil and mount. I have over 100K miles on my coils with 0 failurs and no resistors.















Thread for reference: http://www.mk1dubz.com/forums/showthread.php?1339-VR6-amp-MSD-Coils&p=7786#post7786


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Good info. I've never run spacers on mine with an equal amount of failures (0) . It would probably help to keep them cooler but in my experience it hasn't been necessary. 

I can tell the future:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

fourseasonstuning.com

So...I do have a phenolic plate between my head and the mount but the fact that my coils sit up and away from the engine in basically free air probably has much to do with keeping the coils cooler.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

fourseasontuning.com


even better, mo serious spacer useage promotes cool...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Whats funny is four little phenolic washers keep a stock coil alive indefinitely.


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## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Whats funny is four little phenolic washers keep a stock coil alive indefinitely.





maybe.... but when you have a failed OEM pack... this works very very well. I can even run regular cheap plugs in the motor if I wanted too.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Whats funny is four little phenolic washers keep a stock coil alive indefinitely.


But you get a "wow" factor of +0 at car shows. :laugh:


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

I think the opposite. Look its a working stock coilpack!!


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## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

need_a_VR6 said:


> I think the opposite. Look its a working stock coilpack!!



1. If we all knew to space out the OEM type 'PRIOR' to the failure, then great.
2. The MSD coils have lasted longer than the OEM from VW (on my vehicle)
3. VW should use a little better plastic.


Either way, both coil setups work, in this case, cheaper to replace when failed and you can replace 1 if needed, not to mention a standard GM coil can be had at any local parts store in the event you are stuck somewhere.

I havea spare VR that the coil pack is missing, half the cost to go with an MSD setup and obviously just as reliable.


On a side note also, the battery on the MKIV being so close, I upgraded to a larger battery with better reserve capacity and had to move it to the trunk because the heat was killing them too.

Again, personal preference, neither setup appears to be wrong or have any long term negative affects. From a high level, the mods done to my car have increased my MPG, I can still get (when driven normally) 408 miles to a tank of premium  2000 GTi VR, 240K Miles.


Live and learn.


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## atoson (Dec 29, 2002)

FourSeasonTuning.com said:


> www.fourseasontuning.com


Is that what forum sponsors do all day long?


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

FourSeasonTuning.com said:


> www.fourseasontuning.com


 ..


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## EAD0001 (Mar 6, 2006)

Question for the gurus on here: 

For the second time this year, cylinders 3 & 4 have stopped firing. The first time, I replaced the entire coilpack. That seemed to work. The car ran fine for about 5 or 6 months. Then all of a sudden, it happened again. This time I replaced the coilpack and upgraded the wires. I also added a phenolic spacer for good measure. Start the car and still missing on cylinders 3 & 4. I am absolutely lost on what it could be. I have replaced the plugs recently (about the time it went out the first time) and also put extra grounds in the engine bay. 

Does anyone have any other suggestions or areas to look at? I appreciate any help.

EDIT: Found the issue. It was the big round connector. There was a bad connection. Ended up cutting the wires and making a new connector.


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

EAD0001 said:


> EDIT: Found the issue. It was the big round connector. There was a bad connection. Ended up cutting the wires and making a new connector.


The big round connector on the firewall side of the coilpack? Thanks for the update - good spot to include in troubleshooting.


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## cruizer34 (Sep 26, 2011)

Is there a difference between a mkiii icm and a mkiv icm? I was able to pick up a new coilpack for cheap that is for a mkiii vr. Got everything in the car and now it won't start. Car is a 01 jetta 12v vr6


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## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

cruizer34 said:


> Is there a difference between a mkiii icm and a mkiv icm? I was able to pick up a new coilpack for cheap that is for a mkiii vr. Got everything in the car and now it won't start. Car is a 01 jetta 12v vr6


MK3 Plug is a retangular plug and the MK4 is D shaped. Same function.


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## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

www.fourseasontuning.com


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

I don't think the coil pack will care which icm you're using... It should be interchangeable as far as I know. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

So, I have had this set up for years. Blown the middle coil a few times. as you can tell from the picture, middle is newest. car started missing again, figured the same coil went. Meaning a bad ICM, but low and behold that coil was fine. This is what I found... 
So I am thinking heat now. those that are running spacers, what are you using?


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## EAD0001 (Mar 6, 2006)

tripwalking said:


> The big round connector on the firewall side of the coilpack? Thanks for the update - good spot to include in troubleshooting.


Yes sir :thumbup:


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## EAD0001 (Mar 6, 2006)

boozy said:


> So, I have had this set up for years. Blown the middle coil a few times. as you can tell from the picture, middle is newest. car started missing again, figured the same coil went. Meaning a bad ICM, but low and behold that coil was fine. This is what I found...
> So I am thinking heat now. those that are running spacers, what are you using?


I just got this....

http://www.verdictmotorsports.com/Volkswagen_12v_VR6_Coil_Insulator_Saver_low_temp_p/0137.htm


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## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

thank you! I will also be running the MSD 8870s. Anyone else run them?


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

That looks like a Gruven bracket to me... Can you confirm?


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## jd_600 (May 31, 2015)

I have a beru coil pack if anyone wants it. PM me


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## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

tripwalking said:


> That looks like a Gruven bracket to me... Can you confirm?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It is


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## EPilot (Jul 27, 1999)

Instead of running a phenolic plate under the coil pack that would still transfer heat over time, why not use phenolic tubes?
You'd still have the less heat transfer and that air gap to help lessen the heat transfer.


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## 161324 (Jul 28, 2004)

I have nylon spacers between the coil and bracket and have had 0 issues. I've since moved my battery to the trunk as well due to heat issues. (Larger battery)


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## FourSeasonTuning (Oct 22, 2005)

www.fourseasontuning.com


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## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

Now I remember why I unsubscribed from this thread, keeps on getting bumped with not any useful additions to the thread


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## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

www.fourseasontuning.com


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## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

Skimmer0220 said:


> Now I remember why I unsubscribed from this thread, keeps on getting bumped with not any useful additions to the thread


Yup


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## Pitchwayne (May 3, 2014)

What kit is this? Was it relatively simple to install? Thinking of doing it to my Mk4 12v VR and all the research I find is on Mk3 VR's


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## Pitchwayne (May 3, 2014)

Skimmer0220 said:


> Success!! Got mine finally done after having the parts for over a year and the ride is much much smoother pics
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What kit did you use? The same as the Mk3 kit? and how was the install?


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## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

Pitchwayne said:


> What kit did you use? The same as the Mk3 kit? and how was the install?


I kinda pieced my own kit together, found the coils and then bought the bracket from http://www.vr6coilbracket.com/

for the coils I had believe I bought them strait from MSD Performance, the wires I bought nuespeed wires that I thought I was going to use with my stock setup but when I went this rout I grabbed the MSD boots and cut and crimped my own wires

the VR6 coil bracket site has a nice kit but it can be bought for less the that, 4seasons has the bracket as well but to be honest it's not a nice as the coilbracket sites one and more expensive


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## Pitchwayne (May 3, 2014)

Skimmer0220 said:


> I kinda pieced my own kit together, found the coils and then bought the bracket from http://www.vr6coilbracket.com/
> 
> for the coils I had believe I bought them strait from MSD Performance, the wires I bought nuespeed wires that I thought I was going to use with my stock setup but when I went this rout I grabbed the MSD boots and cut and crimped my own wires
> 
> the VR6 coil bracket site has a nice kit but it can be bought for less the that, 4seasons has the bracket as well but to be honest it's not a nice as the coilbracket sites one and more expensive


So make it myself or buy a kit from that cite, thanks bud

Sent from my LG-E980 using Tapatalk


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## Skimmer0220 (Oct 12, 2009)

Pitchwayne said:


> So make it myself or buy a kit from that cite, thanks bud
> 
> Sent from my LG-E980 using Tapatalk


yea, it can be bought for less then the kit they have but if you buy the kit you wont have to worry about missing any parts


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## Cubix (Jul 26, 2002)

Holy moly, this is still going strong!

Has anyone ever figured out what the deal was with the coils burning out?

How about draw rates for the MSD packs vs what the ICM can pump out?

I noticed none of my photos in the first page work, I'll try to find them and get them back up.


Not only do I not on my VR anymore, I don't even have a VW


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Yup, a special thanks to four seasons for their constant attention to this thread


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## boozy (Jun 20, 2007)

Cubix said:


> Holy moly, this is still going strong!
> 
> Has anyone ever figured out what the deal was with the coils burning out?
> 
> ...


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## VertigoGTI (Apr 1, 2001)

Cubix said:


> Holy moly, this is still going strong!
> 
> Has anyone ever figured out what the deal was with the coils burning out?
> 
> ...



I'm in the same boat. I still get emails from people asking me if I can snap pics of my setup. I haven't owned that car in 8 years. 


The culprit is a combination of heat and vibration... both off the engine. People will think I'm crazy for thinking that, but I revised my bracket with high-temp silicone 'bumpers' to isolate the Accel CP from the vibrations. 

The car is still kicking with the same coilpack. No resistor in the line either.


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## 97veearrsixx (Apr 7, 2016)

!!!!!!!Anyone having trouble keeping their leads on the tabs from the stock coil!!!!!!!

I drilled holes in mine with a 2.5mm drill bit then used small ring terminals with 2mm bolts through the holes tighten bolts properly end of problem. I'm currently running this set up and would be glad to answer any and all questions anyone may have email is [email protected] happy dubbing everyone


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## attack chicken (Sep 3, 2006)

Here's my contribution... Pretty much the same thing everyone else has, I made everything from parts I had laying around so the cost was a no brainer. I used a coil bracket from a 3100 or 3400.. I can't remember. I don't have any spacers and don't have any resistors. The plug wires were the ones that came with the car I just put GM style ends on them. It ran great for a month or 2 then one of the wires came off the icm while I was driving. After that I drilled a small hole through the icm terminals with the female wire connectors in place and just pinned them on with cotter pins and haven't had any problem since. That was 3 years ago and about 80000 miles.



Now it's on my AFP swap with mk4 wires and GM ends crimped on.


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## PeruEuro (Dec 28, 2006)

I bought the MSD coils from vr6coilpack.com. and they blow my ICMs almost instantly. any ideas?


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## indigenus (Aug 24, 2009)

Has anyone come across an aftermarket icm that has been reliable? MSD? Haltech? I'm running pretty much the same setup on the 4cyl but I keep killing ICMs. The wiring and signal is not much different, just 1 less coil. I seem to get about 3k miles out of them, then nothing. I have been buying the cheaper coil packs to separate the ICM from though. So before I drop the bucks on a legit one just wanted to see if there was an aftermarket one the might work.

PS... I looked through the first 20 or so pages and saw the volvo ones but they were for the 6cyls and the links for the haltech icms were broken so no luck there.


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## euro16v (Dec 12, 1999)

indigenus said:


> Has anyone come across an aftermarket icm that has been reliable? MSD? Haltech? I'm running pretty much the same setup on the 4cyl but I keep killing ICMs. The wiring and signal is not much different, just 1 less coil. I seem to get about 3k miles out of them, then nothing. I have been buying the cheaper coil packs to separate the ICM from though. So before I drop the bucks on a legit one just wanted to see if there was an aftermarket one the might work.
> 
> PS... I looked through the first 20 or so pages and saw the volvo ones but they were for the 6cyls and the links for the haltech icms were broken so no luck there.


I've been running the MSD 6302 igniters on my Subaru for 2 years now. I converted it to an MSD coil pack just like this VR6 mod. I also have the MSD 6304 igniter on my VR6 although it looks like that 4 channel model is not currently available.


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Sorry, I haven't been watching this thread as much since ^



PeruEuro said:


> I bought the MSD coils from vr6coilpack.com. and they blow my ICMs almost instantly. any ideas?


I think we sorted this out over email back then, and I hope you'd let me know if you're still having issues. Looks like you got some helpful links in your other thread too. Mods, please delete this comment if you need to.


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## tripwalking (Apr 28, 2004)

Happy 10th anniversary to my first MSD install! Still on the road... current owner has it up for sale.

No resistor, coils mounted directly to bracket, driven year round (four seasons, if you will). 



























Let's see how many posts we can get in (regarding MSD ignition on a VR6 of course) before the autoreply.


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## Mustillo (Nov 23, 2015)

Got it all wired in, car pulls harder but some of my old leads were gone and it would misfire occasionally. I’m thinking of ditching the earth that runs through the ICM connector loom by just crimping and bolting it to the bracket


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## Ajfrassetto (May 17, 2017)

I am running ls1 coil on plugs this season. so far so good, 0 issues. :thumbup:


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## colombia00vr6 (Oct 6, 2004)

*Bad MSD 8224*

Is there a way to test the coil (MSD 8224) before installing it?


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## FourSeasonTuning.com (Jan 12, 2005)

www.FourSeasonTuning.com


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