# VW is becoming boring!



## Das Schnurrbart (Feb 22, 2012)

*Some say the product line is boring.*

Would you have paid more for a Volkswagen with higher end features?


The purpose of this thread is to have a discussion about the future of VW's (German) product design relative to its competitors as this seems to be an ongoing source of concern for legacy customers. Frustration arises from not having access to cars of the same content level VW's German customers get. As such, "Boring" is intended to be more a reference to car content, material fit and finish rather than exterior appearance or even reliability of the vehicle.


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## blipsman (Nov 20, 2001)

I've always gravitated to VW because it was closer to the German luxury brands in terms of styling, handling, features, etc. even as prices were closer to the mainstream brands. I hate seeing VW chase the mainstream volume with lowest common denominator products like the new Jetta and Passat. My fear is that they'll become another Ford or Toyota, trying to sell bland cars to the masses and leave behind those of us who like VW because it's more European than American, even if that isn't for everyone. Didn't like the size, styling and materials of the new Passat when it came time to replace my 2002 Passat. We ended up in a Tiguan this time. Next time... sounding like it'll finally be time to step up to Audi or BMW.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

blipsman said:


> ....Didn't like the size, styling and materials of the new Passat when it came time to replace my 2002 Passat......Next time... sounding like it'll finally be time to step up to Audi or BMW.


What didn't you like about the CC?


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## Das Schnurrbart (Feb 22, 2012)

Yes blip, moving us to Audi seems to be corporate's objective. It just really stinks for those of us who don't want to buy luxury brands. I would be more than willing to buy a scirocco with the features I want for a little more money than a bunch more money on an Audi.


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## rabbit_rot (Apr 20, 2003)

I feel as if Volkswagen started making boring cars after 1992


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## Vamped (Jan 2, 2003)

Das Schnurrbart said:


> Yes blip, moving us to Audi seems to be corporate's objective. It just really stinks for those of us who don't want to buy luxury brands. I would be more than willing to buy a scirocco with the features I want for a little more money than a bunch more money on an Audi.


Wont happen with me, altho I would love to own an A5, but if VW keeps this up, maybe its time to look elsewhere?


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## Das Schnurrbart (Feb 22, 2012)

rabbit_rot said:


> I feel as if Volkswagen started making boring cars after 1992


This is part of my point. Around the 90's and early 00's they were selling the German models as pseudo luxury cars and that was different. Now the business model is shifting completely. It seemed to me that (the pseudo lux) was what made VW different and was the whole foundation of their business in the U.S. Right now they are scrapping that in favor of German CamCords. Even though they look (subjective), feel (many don't care) and drive better (subjective), I don't see that working long term.


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## Das Schnurrbart (Feb 22, 2012)

Vamped said:


> Wont happen with me, altho I would love to own an A5, but if VW keeps this up, maybe its time to look elsewhere?


I guess so.


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## v b chil-n (Nov 6, 2000)

Sadly Hyundai and Kia seem more euro and stylish than VW nowadays, even ford has stepped 
up their game with the newer models. All we have is the CC as far as I'm concerned and the price
is nearing Audi territory for what is essentially a restyled Passat which is not worth the extra $10k
price tag.

VW needs to inject not only some new models in the US market but some updated style as well.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

Das Schnurrbart said:


> This is part of my point. Around the 90's and early 00's they were selling the German models as pseudo luxury cars and that was different. Now the business model is shifting completely. It seemed to me that (the pseudo lux) was what made VW different and was the whole foundation of their business in the U.S. Right now they are scrapping that in favor of German CamCords. Even though they look (subjective), feel (many don't care) and drive better (subjective), I don't see that working long term.


Guess you have never looked at a CC, Golf or Touareg then?


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## blipsman (Nov 20, 2001)

v b chil-n said:


> VW needs to inject not only some new models in the US market but some updated style as well.


It seems VW wants to emulate Toyota and Honda in terms of being a full-line, volume sales brand. But people buy those brands for their reliability in spite of their boring styling, not because of their boring styling. VW seems to have overlooked the reliability and jumped right to the boring styling with their "mass market" focused models. Worst of both worlds...


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

blipsman said:


> It seems VW wants to emulate Toyota and Honda in terms of being a full-line, volume sales brand. But people buy those brands for their reliability in spite of their boring styling, not because of their boring styling. VW seems to have overlooked the reliability and jumped right to the boring styling with their "mass market" focused models. Worst of both worlds...


First, VW are as reliable as any other make, and second, the CC, Touareg and Golf are certainly not boring in design and execution.


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## Wagon05 (Feb 7, 2005)

blipsman said:


> It seems VW wants to emulate Toyota and Honda in terms of being a full-line, volume sales brand. But people buy those brands for their reliability in spite of their boring styling, not because of their boring styling. VW seems to have overlooked the reliability and jumped right to the boring styling with their "mass market" focused models. Worst of both worlds...


yes - Subaru seems to be becoming what VW used to be


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## Das Schnurrbart (Feb 22, 2012)

The report on the front page of the vortex on the U.S. Golf 7 sounds promising "Our understanding is that Volkswagen would like to offer some options that we haven’t previously gotten on the Golf before (like adaptive cruise control, park assist, etc., etc.) but those options will come later". I hope this tech goes into a scirocco that's offered in the U.S.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

Wagon05 said:


> yes - Subaru seems to be becoming what VW used to be


Humm, have you not seen the substandard exterior and interior appearance of their models?


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

Das Schnurrbart said:


> ....a scirocco ....in the U.S.


Hummmm, why would they want an unattractive little FWD "coupe" to sell? The Golf is much better looking, and with the Mk7 will be much more modern and sophisticated.


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## ocramida (Nov 26, 2012)

*???*



Wagon05 said:


> yes - Subaru seems to be becoming what VW used to be


Ahhh, Subaru's have ALWAYS been boring IMO. Sure the WRX/STi's have some soul, but at the price of horrific interiors and poor build quality. Chassis and engine are durable for sure but the things are rattle traps.


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## ocramida (Nov 26, 2012)

*You have to make money somehow...*



blipsman said:


> It seems VW wants to emulate Toyota and Honda in terms of being a full-line, volume sales brand. But people buy those brands for their reliability in spite of their boring styling, not because of their boring styling. VW seems to have overlooked the reliability and jumped right to the boring styling with their "mass market" focused models. Worst of both worlds...


Many of the comments here are made by people who have no idea what it takes to make money in this highly competitive economy. One reviewer stated it best with respect to what Porsche is doing with the new Mecan. Porsche loyalists maybe up in arms becasue Porsche appears to be selling out but what they don't realize is that the success of the Mecan and other more mainstream models will finance the cooler, more soulful performance models like the GT3. 

I'm not saying VW doesn't have some work to do, but the new GTI, R, the GTI Concept and rumors of a RS/Evo give some indication that VW isn't just resorting to selling refrigerators. Jeez have some faith. Like any business VW needs to look at the bottom line. Now if they suddenly said "OK, we've decided to kill the GTI, then I'd be worried. All we're waiting for now is VW to fully realize the manufacturing support in the US so they can offer better features and don't have to deal with crazy money to import cars.

Relax.:beer:


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## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

blipsman said:


> It seems VW wants to emulate Toyota and Honda in terms of being a full-line, volume sales brand. But people buy those brands for their reliability in spite of their boring styling, not because of their boring styling. VW seems to have overlooked the reliability and jumped right to the boring styling with their "mass market" focused models. Worst of both worlds...


I agree with this, and this is limited to U.S. buyers. VW has always been a niche market brand with some quirkiness, and usually depends on loyal buyers to keep coming back. New models and some choices would be certainly help sales.


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## Das Schnurrbart (Feb 22, 2012)

ocramida said:


> Many of the comments here are made by people who have no idea what it takes to make money in this highly competitive economy. One reviewer stated it best with respect to what Porsche is doing with the new Mecan. Porsche loyalists maybe up in arms becasue Porsche appears to be selling out but what they don't realize is that the success of the Mecan and other more mainstream models will finance the cooler, more soulful performance models like the GT3.
> 
> I'm not saying VW doesn't have some work to do, but the new GTI, R, the GTI Concept and rumors of a RS/Evo give some indication that VW isn't just resorting to selling refrigerators. Jeez have some faith. Like any business VW needs to look at the bottom line. Now if they suddenly said "OK, we've decided to kill the GTI, then I'd be worried. All we're waiting for now is VW to fully realize the manufacturing support in the US so they can offer better features and don't have to deal with crazy money to import cars.
> 
> Relax.:beer:


The issue is that the works counsel director said there were problems with the product line. While I personally like the new Passat, it was a core model that was modified to suit American tastes. It seems to have worked out in the short term (for me anyway), but companies like Mazda and Ford are coming up fast. If the Passats, Jettas and new crossover were being produced to subsidize the production of sciroccos and mid engine sports cars it would be fine, but it doesn't look like that is going to happen soon.


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## jim_c (Sep 22, 2013)

VW started out boring. It was conceived as a simple and easy to repair utility car the average person could afford. It didn't work out that way thanks to Hitler needing the cash.
I, for one, wish they could still build a car like that. I really don't need the luxury or gadgets. Still looking for an old Bug.


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## Crzyrio (Aug 14, 2013)

I personally like the simplicity of VW.

I have a Jetta SE and while most people think the interior is 'bland' and lack features I love it. I personally thought that is what VW was about but perhaps I am wrong?

My friend has a Mazda 3 and I cringe every time I see the front console, soooooo many buttons and lights its just plain ugly despite having all those 'extras'. I truly hope they don't go that way with their design.

On the other hand, I love the little features that are incorporated. Speed Dependent Volume and wipers. And I feel like they are pushing in to similar features with the 2015 Gold (I can't find that video I saw about it, Ill update this once I find it )


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## mriccucci (Jul 26, 2013)

Coming from an american muscle background, and moving towards euro cars, I cant agree more with the comments about how VW is becoming an average brand, I think they desperately need to bring the Scirocco state side. I believe vw did a huge disservice to the Passat when they made it so bland, and what happened to the wagon? Why cant i buy a polo? For pete sake they sell the snot out of them in the EU. I strongly believe they would go over very well here, and command a large part of market over the other cheapo cars people are buying. I think the obvious lack of care from most of the dealers is a very good example of the fact that VW no longer caters to the customer they cater to their accounting department!


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

mriccucci said:


> Coming from an american muscle background, and moving towards euro cars, I cant agree more with the comments about how VW is becoming an average brand, I think they desperately need to bring the Scirocco state side. I believe vw did a huge disservice to the Passat when they made it so bland, and what happened to the wagon? Why cant i buy a polo? For pete sake they sell the snot out of them in the EU. I strongly believe they would go over very well here, and command a large part of market over the other cheapo cars people are buying. I think the obvious lack of care from most of the dealers is a very good example of the fact that VW no longer caters to the customer they cater to their accounting department!


The business is about making profit. VWoA is doing what is needed to make profit. For the traditional VW enthisiest, there is still the Golf models, the CC, the Tiguan and the Touareg. More great models to follow.

The Scirocco would not sell enough to effort the cert cost (plus it is soooo ugly) The Passat wagon would not sell well in a country of SUVs. Wagons popular in Europe, but not here.


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## deagle (Feb 22, 2011)

wat do you mean by boring ?

not good enough speed .... where limits are typically 65/35 mph hwy/local ?

not good enough handling ... where roads are typically straight ?

is that what tuning and aftermarket is for ?

to make boring , bland, beige colors something eye-catching, and under-performing characteristics improved ?


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## motif (Feb 8, 2014)

silly accusation, "boring" car means practical car and that's what VW stands for.
Fun starts when you drive VW and that's counts the most.


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## Das Schnurrbart (Feb 22, 2012)

deagle said:


> wat do you mean by boring ?
> 
> not good enough speed .... where limits are typically 65/35 mph hwy/local ?
> 
> ...





The intent of this thread is to progress the discussion about the future of VW product design relative to what most customers (future and current) want. This has been the subject of debate for years if not decades. There is a lot of tension between moving VW product design in to the mainstream from the niche. Using the Scirocco or CC as a point of reference, many are concerned VW Germany will move the U.S. Away from these "desirable" cars to cars that are less compelling. The works councilman is equally concerned for different reasons.


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## Das Schnurrbart (Feb 22, 2012)

motif said:


> silly accusation, "boring" car means practical car and that's what VW stands for.
> Fun starts when you drive VW and that's counts the most.


I will assume that since you are new you haven't had a chance to drive some of the previous generations of VW's as those of us who have been with the brand for a decade or more have and you may not have experienced some of the upscale features that were in previous cars, although You can still find them on the CC and Toureg. Boring is the opposite of these cars. A car that has a vanilla appearance and few desirable features. I guess the question is if you think a $43,000 CC or a $67,000 Toureg is practical. Some think a Scirroco with its hatchback, tight suspension, electronics upgrades and backseat is practical. Even if it is $36,000.


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## motif (Feb 8, 2014)

Das Schnurrbart said:


> I will assume that since you are new you haven't had a chance to drive some of the previous generations of VW's as those of us who have been with the brand for a decade or more have and you may not have experienced some of the upscale features that were in previous cars, although You can still find them on the CC and Toureg..


may I ask which upscale features you're talking about? I am about to buy a new tiguan and to be honest I cannot point any feature that car doesn't have. In fact for me it has more then I need, e.g. Park Assist etc.


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## Das Schnurrbart (Feb 22, 2012)

motif said:


> may I ask which upscale features you're talking about? I am about to buy a new tiguan and to be honest I cannot point any feature that car doesn't have. In fact for me it has more then I need, e.g. Park Assist etc.


Certainly, the Tiguan is a great example, it has an electronic parking break with automatic lock features. This was standard on the b6 Passat, but unfortunately (to me anyway) has been removed from the b7. The Tiguan is a German model that drives great, but may be discontinued they say. Buying one would be an excellent move.


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## designvs (Sep 21, 2012)

I'll offer a different point of view. I appreciate car design and I refuse to buy any new vehicle I don't find visually appealing. Until about a year and half ago, I had never owned a VW product. I now own a 2013 GLI Autobahn DSG. As a teenager, I liked the Sirocco and Corrado but never gave their other cars any thought. And quite honestly I thought the MKV and MKIV lineup was downright ugly and boring, especially the Jetta's. The current Jetta, in my opinion, is a very nice yet conservative design. But I think that's what makes it unique. Hyundai, Kia, Honda, Toyota, Subaru, Mazda all have cars that are in the same price range. But none of these cars have interesting designs in my opinion...well except the new Mazda 6 which I find to be beautiful. All these other cars look like the designers tried too hard to put in extraneous design elements. While the current VW lineup has a classy ease about it. The current design language for VW is the best the brand has ever had. Again, this is just my opinion.

The current Jetta is by far the most appealing design this model has ever had. I'm not sure why people consider it boring because it's a much better design than the previous models AND it's a much better design than the competition. Also, I find the current GTI to be a rather desirable car. 

So far, the GLI has been perfect without any issues whatsoever. The Honda Accords (both were top of the line EX VTEC models) I owned prior had their issues in the first couple years (rattles, paint problems, crappy fit and finish, recalls). The GLI has had none so far. Not to say that it won't have any issues but so far it's been great. 

So, while you all are concerned about VW becoming "boring", I don't share this view. In my opinion it's most of the other car makers that have become boring.

BTW, my other vehicle is a Jeep Wrangler Unlimited which I also find to be an excellent design. There is no other vehicle like it on the market. That is another brand that seems to have a niche following but people are constantly whining about how it's becoming boring. Not true when you look at the automotive industry in general.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

Das Schnurrbart said:


> ....The Tiguan is a German model that drives great, but may be discontinued they say....


Discontinued? Not likely. The new MQB version will be introduced soon.


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## ocramida (Nov 26, 2012)

*More timeless*

One could argue that VW offers a more timeless design, compared to say a Hyundai Sonata which looks like an explosion in an origami factory.  Mazda is about the only Japanese manufacturer who seems to know how to style a car without going overboard IMO. But I find my R is quite beautiful from a industrial, machine-like perspective. I actually find it looks good even when it's dirty. More stylized cars seem to need constant cleaning to look their best. I enjoy cleaning my car as much as the next OCD car lover, but it's also nice to feel like you can leave it for a week if life or family requires more attention.  IMO.


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## blipsman (Nov 20, 2001)

motif said:


> may I ask which upscale features you're talking about? I am about to buy a new tiguan and to be honest I cannot point any feature that car doesn't have. In fact for me it has more then I need, e.g. Park Assist etc.


The Tiguan is a vehicle that's still in the higher quality camp vs. the new Passat and Jetta that have been stripped down to price in line with mainstream competitors. That's why we went with a Tiguan last time around, instead of the new Passat. The Tiguan has base features like a peppy 2.0T engine, and an overall high build quality. The Passat was saddled with a rough 5-cyl. base engine, the interior materials were noticeably cheaper feeling than my '02 model, and they cut little things like the hydraulic hinges on the trunk lid, reduced insulation/sound deadening, etc. They have added back some of the features since the new Passat's introduction, like rear heat/ac vents and now a 1.8T engine.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

blipsman said:


> .....the new Passat and Jetta that have been stripped down to price in line with mainstream competitors. That's why we went with a Tiguan last time around, instead of the new Passat......The Passat was saddled with a rough 5-cyl. base engine, the interior materials were noticeably cheaper feeling than my '02 model, and they cut little things like the hydraulic hinges on the trunk lid, reduced insulation/sound deadening, etc. They have added back some of the features since the new Passat's introduction, like rear heat/ac vents and now a 1.8T engine.


Have you checked the sales of these Passat and Jetta? Look like a big success to me. The money they make pays for the models we want, like the CC, Golf, Tiguan and Touareg.


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

blipsman said:


> They have added back some of the features since the new Passat's introduction, like rear heat/ac vents and now a 1.8T engine.


Same with the Jetta - now almost all models have the upgraded interior materials, rear independent suspension, and rear disc brakes.

Other models besides the Tiguan, Tuareg, Sportswagen and EOS that are still rather European in materials and built quality are the CC and the Golf/ TDI/ GTI/ R and the very soon appearing MkVII Golf and new, MQB-based wagon. The Beetle now that initial problems have been fixed isn't really bad, either, at all.


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## AufMitDemSpiel (Nov 15, 2012)

Well I traded in my 'properly German' 2010 Golf for an 'Americanized' 2012 Passat. I thought the SE package had a significantly higher level of standard equipment for the price over VW's of the past, and the US-only 2.5 5 cylinder is (was) one of the most reliable long-term motors made by VW AG. I think if the North American Passat was sold in Europe it would be a completely different story...


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## vr6fanatic (Apr 5, 2003)

Volkswagen has been behind the eight ball for quite some time. Here in the North East sales for Volkswagen has not been stellar for the past 4-8 months, Volkswagen needs to implement a team for marketing, Give the customer Incentives, bring these forbidden vehicles to our side of the pond, More variety for the customer.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

vr6fanatic said:


> Volkswagen has been behind the eight ball for quite some time. Here in the North East sales for Volkswagen has not been stellar for the past 4-8 months, Volkswagen needs to implement a team for marketing, Give the customer Incentives, bring these forbidden vehicles to our side of the pond, More variety for the customer.


How is it you know more than VW about what they should do? What is your background in this? 

Have you compared the number of units VS is selling in the USA compared to the percent change from last year? Look at the number of units sold, not how many more than 12 months ago.

In a year or two, your "recommendation" will look pretty silly.


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## BoyoUK (Dec 3, 2012)

I'd agree with the person who says VW make "timeless" designs, rather than "boring". Over in the UK it's the same story with each generation of VW model that's released: "oh that car looks so BORING". Each and every time. That in itself gets boring.

Don't get me wrong, even as a VW salesman I look at the Passat and Jetta and think to myself that it could do with a little more "oomph" in the looks department, but then we sell quite a lot of them (well, more Passat than Jetta in the UK) and I realise that the Passat is the unit-shifter, which allows VW to work on the designs for the more flamboyant designs.

I mean, the Beetle, Scirocco, Corrado, anything "R" (have you seen the new 4WD 250PS Polo R that's just been announced!?!?), the Eos and the Camper - they're hardly boring. You need a lot of money in order to invest in design and technology, and to get money you need to sell a lot of cars.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

BoyoUK said:


> ....Don't get me wrong, even as a VW salesman I look at the Passat and Jetta and think to myself that it could do with a little more "oomph" in the looks department,....


I think you are confusing boring with sophisticated. Even at it's lowered spec in the USA, the Passat is the class of it's competitors in the looks department.


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## Das Schnurrbart (Feb 22, 2012)

BoyoUK said:


> I'd agree with the person who says VW make "timeless" designs, rather than "boring". Over in the UK it's the same story with each generation of VW model that's released: "oh that car looks so BORING". Each and every time. That in itself gets boring.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, even as a VW salesman I look at the Passat and Jetta and think to myself that it could do with a little more "oomph" in the looks department, but then we sell quite a lot of them (well, more Passat than Jetta in the UK) and I realise that the Passat is the unit-shifter, which allows VW to work on the designs for the more flamboyant designs.
> 
> I mean, the Beetle, Scirocco, Corrado, anything "R" (have you seen the new 4WD 250PS Polo R that's just been announced!?!?), the Eos and the Camper - they're hardly boring. You need a lot of money in order to invest in design and technology, and to get money you need to sell a lot of cars.



The "desirable" models you are referring to are exactly the models we do not get here in the U.S. If Europeans had the selection of cars we have here in the states it's doubtful VW would sell very many cars there either. We have been asking for the Scirroco for some time and have been pretty much told we will never see a Polo much less an R-line one. This while Honda can't seem to make the Fit (the Jazz over there) fast enough. This is what confounds VW's legacy customers here.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

Das Schnurrbart said:


> The "desirable" models you are referring to are exactly the models we do not get here in the U.S. If Europeans had the selection of cars we have here in the states it's doubtful VW would sell very many cars there either. We have been asking for the Scirroco for some time and have been pretty much told we will never see a Polo much less an R-line one. This while Honda can't seem to make the Fit (the Jazz over there) fast enough. This is what confounds VW's legacy customers here.


Be assured that VW marketing knows a lot more about what would sell here and what would be profitable than you ever will.


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## amancuso (Jul 23, 2011)

I have a 2014 Jetta SE. It's priced slightly higher than the usual Asian brands, yet has less electronic gadgetry. I preferred the simple styling, however I do wish it had at least bluetooth telephony as standard.


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## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

amancuso said:


> I have a 2014 Jetta SE. It's priced slightly higher than the usual Asian brands, yet has less electronic gadgetry. I preferred the simple styling, however I do wish it had at least bluetooth telephony as standard.


Yeah, you would have to pay almost $2,000 more to get that (and other items included in the package). I'd look into installing the OEM bluetooth module separately. Perhaps the *MkVI Jetta forum* can help.


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## Das Schnurrbart (Feb 22, 2012)

This is a good reason to restructure the packaging. VW has gotten away from alas cart feature offerings, but it needs to be replaced.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

Das Schnurrbart said:


> This is a good reason to restructure the packaging. VW has gotten away from alas cart feature offerings, but it needs to be replaced.


And what mainline European maker does that?


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## gman1868 (Apr 9, 2015)

Thread resurrection!

I'm currently looking at the 2015 Passat, but confused in the difference in appearance between the German Passat and the US version. The German model is much more attractive and it's disappointing that they don't sell the same car here.

One thing I'm glad they didn't bring over here? The price! A well-equipped 2WD TDI is north of $48000!! A fully loaded version is over $50k. That is before the VAT they pay of around 15% plus sales tax.

Might as well buy an Audi instead?


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