# 1.8 16v ITBs, need some help? *new here*



## jschlappi82 (Jan 9, 2004)

Hello, my name is Joris. I'm located in the netherlands, so sorry for my english. If you don't understand i'll try to explain...
I drive a Scirocco GT2, and i just swapped my old 8v JH engine for a 16v KR engine.
The 16v engine is totally new, with quicker cams (don't know the term, higher lift, different duration), little head-work, adjustable cam-gear, 4-2-1 exhaust 60mm, and Modular Fuel Injection (Injected Throttle-bodies)
I'm running original 16v CIS, but i don't know what spark-timing i'm supposed to use. I've had it on 6 degrees, standard, and now on 10 degrees. On the 10 degrees ignition timing it's "stronger" when driving away (low revs), but i think the overall power is less than with the standard ignition timing. With the std ignition timing it's backfiring a little bit. Is there a good way to determine the ignition timing? I check the combustion (fuel/air ratio) by checking the spark-plugs.
I hope you understand the story, feel free to ask for better explanation. 
Some pic's:
Exhaust:








ITB's:








The engine in place:


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: 1.8 16v ITBs, need some help? *new here* (jschlappi82)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Black Demon 1.8T (Jul 1, 2002)

nice engine, your timming spark is ok, i use 19 degrees with 283/279 cat cams, and 11.4 je forged pistons. what about your compresion?


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## jschlappi82 (Jan 9, 2004)

I have second oversize bore cilinders and pistons, std Mahle, polished rods. Rods/pistons/crank (fully built with clutch/flywheel/pully's) balanced. 
I can't find the english term for it, but 1.1 mm was "shaved" of the headsurface attaching to the base-engine. Don't know my compression rate now... Std 10:1, now 11:1 11.5:1??
Cams, don't know the nr's, but it's the first step up, sport cams. We have sport, race and rally...
Race clutch/pressure plate. Different material, sinter? (its called that here...)
The tuning company where i bought the goodies had built such an engine couple years ago in a Golf 2 Gti 16v, it produced 206 bhp...
Don't think my engine will produce that, but i'm hoping at least 180 bhp...
If i change the ign timing to about 20 degrees, it's really revving hard, very quickly (Thats the goal eh?) but i'm afraid my pistons or valves will "burn up"?
Hope you understand...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (jschlappi82)*

What distributor are you using? When you say 20deg do you mean initial timing, or total timing?


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## Black Demon 1.8T (Jul 1, 2002)

i have a distributor with out advance timing. 
the inicial and final timing is the same.
right now i have my othe engine 9a, 13.5 je pistons with solid cams and i'm running 33 degres with vp c12 racing gas


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## jschlappi82 (Jan 9, 2004)

I use original distributor and ignition box, i don't know the difference between total and initial timing. When the engine is running idle, my ignition is at 10 degrees.
Now i have the next problem, i must set the co% high when the engine is hot, but now it's too high at cold start, it's "drowning" in petrol at cold start....
Anyone?


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## jschlappi82 (Jan 9, 2004)

Is there a good way to enrichen the fuel mixture at hot phase, but not at cold phase?
I can turn the system-pressure higher by changing the fuel-pressure spring at the fuel-distributor, and i can lower the control pressure with my warm-up regulator. But will it always be enrichening, also at cold phase?
Anyone familiar with itb's and CIS? It can work properly, but i can't reach anyone who has done it...
Engine is running smooth now, and is deliviring lots of power. There was one spark-plug not working... But i do think its not putting out what it should.... 
Should i disengage the timing advance (vacuum line at ignition box) and set the timing earlier? 


_Modified by jschlappi82 at 9:47 AM 9-19-2005_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (jschlappi82)*

No you should be able to leave the vacuum advance and still have it work well. What you should verify though, is that the vacuum line running from the throttles to the ignition box should be AFTER the throttle plates. Before will cause all sorts of funny problems. 6-10deg initial advance at idle should be around where you want to be. 
You should be setting the mixture warm and not cold, everything else should be taken care of by the fuel computer/sensors. If you have it running well hot, but not cold, there's probably a sensor problem.


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## jschlappi82 (Jan 9, 2004)

You mean that the vacuumline is between the throttle-plates and the intake? If you don't do that, you will not have any vacuum though?
I set my mixture at hot, but now its "drowning" at cold, because the warm-up regulator is lowering the control-pressure, and the CO-screw is "higher" (so is the fuel-distributor piston) as it would be with original intake...
You guys understand im running ITB's on CIS? k-jetronic...
I don't have a fuel-computer. Only ignition box...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (jschlappi82)*

Make sure the vac line is between the throttle and the intake valve, not the intake. Hope that clears that up!
I thought you were running the whole 16v management, but it seems you're running CIS, and an early version at that. Do you have your warm up regulator mounted to the side of the head, if not, where is it? Is the heater plug still hooked up on the warm up regulator?


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## jschlappi82 (Jan 9, 2004)

Yes, it is between the throttle-plates and the intake valve. 
And yes i'm running the first version of CIS. It's completely mechanical, i have no lambda-sensor. 
I'm not sure you have this version, in Europe it's common on earlier 16v KR engines.
Yes, my warm-up regulator is mounted on the side of my head, and yes the heater plug is hooked up. I'm not sure its working, i will check that.
I set my co-mixture about 3.5 co, its working then with hot engine, but with cold engine its too much enrichend.
If i drop the control pressure (screw in warm up-regulator) will i also enrichen the fuel at cold phase?
Or can it be my engine "drowns" because of the ignition timing is to late?
When i set my ignition timing to 10 degrees instead of 8 degrees it started better at hot and cold phase....
Greets, Joris.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (jschlappi82)*

Ok, we got that version of CIS, but it was only on very early 8v cars. We never had any straight CIS on a 16v. 
Double check that heater plug, as the head won't warm up the warm up regulator quick enough (if that makes any sense!) and it will think the car is cold longer then usual and colder then it really is.
I've never set the mixture with a CO meter, as most CIS cars have the lambda computer and setting the mixture off of that is fairly simple. I've also never adjusted the warm up regulator, where's this screw that you speak of?
I've had problems with the warm up regulator screen (filter) being clogged with rust causing this exact problem, so you might want to double check that it's clear.
Timing shouldn't be a big issue, especially if you have it set near the factory spec.


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## jschlappi82 (Jan 9, 2004)

Is it possible to compensate the fuel demand of the engine by taking the air-meter valve (?, "air flow sensor") or warm-up regulator, or fuel distributor from another vehicle, ie porsche or audi or something? 
I need to get the fuel mixture right for the enlargened amount of air... (at high revs)
Isn't there anybody who has made CIS ITB's?


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## Kameirocco (Dec 20, 2002)

*Re: (jschlappi82)*

are you noticing alot mroe power with ITBS on CIS? i was debating the same exact swap, well an 8v, but didn't think it would give alot more power..


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (jschlappi82)*

I can't say that I've ever seen it done before. There are Volvo units from turbo cars that are rated for larger airflow rates, but that's a poor flowing 2v motor with boost. I think the wall profile of the fuel distributor wouldn't be the optimal shape. Perhaps a half of a Ferarri V8 with dual CIS units? 
I noticed on my car when I tuned the CIS for good top end the midrange would be a bit rich. I don't think that's something that you can tune out without changing the profile of the FD though. 
Your best bet is to try and find a similar (2L multi valve) car that had straight CIS. Saab 16v maybe?


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## jschlappi82 (Jan 9, 2004)

I've heard along the way that the air-flow meter of a Volkswagen 1600 gti engine has better flow, and a porsche warm-up regulator would also give some fuel enrichment. 
But thats the problem, i hear much more things, that aren't true! (ie a box that gives a current to your chassis to prevent rust...??)
Maybe someone who has been struggling with cis knows this?
Everyone changes to stand-alone, but i don't want to, because of the extra cost, and it can be done with cis.
@Kameirocco: ofcourse you are, ITB's can pass through a LOT more air, but you have to make sure your mixture isn't too lean, because of burning your pistons... I did the complete swap, not one by one, so i don't know the real difference between the std inlet and the ITB's, but i can asure it's moving forward when opening the throttle! And the sound is beatiful!
Only problem: the engine will produce about 30 bhp less, than with stand alone management....


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## dohc (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: (jschlappi82)*

I've used a Audi 5000 Turbo warm-up regulator to give more fuel up top. 
It worked, but it really doesn't like a large overlap cam. There is a vacuum feed on the regulator. When the vacuum between the valve and TB decreases, the cotrol pressure decreases and give more fuel.
I have one if you can't get one, I'm not looking for too much either.
I didn't know the standard WUR had an adjustment feature to them!?!?


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## Kameirocco (Dec 20, 2002)

*Re: (jschlappi82)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jschlappi82* »_
@Kameirocco: ofcourse you are, ITB's can pass through a LOT more air, but you have to make sure your mixture isn't too lean, because of burning your pistons... I did the complete swap, not one by one, so i don't know the real difference between the std inlet and the ITB's, but i can asure it's moving forward when opening the throttle! And the sound is beatiful!
Only problem: the engine will produce about 30 bhp less, than with stand alone management....

i know what ya mean, thanks for the reply!! i'm just curious about these rarely done swaps because i want to have something different but i NEVER want to get rid of my CIS


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## jschlappi82 (Jan 9, 2004)

Yes, everyone who sees my engine says "What the f*ck have you done?" 
What would happen if i disengage the vacuumline of the warm-up regulator?


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## jschlappi82 (Jan 9, 2004)

Maybe i found a problem: when i cold start the engine, my brakes don't work properly, there is no vacuum at the ......(round box at master brake cilinder, vacuum) Than i also don't have vacuum at the WUR, maybe thats why it's "drowning" at cold engine....
I drilled 4 holes in my inlet manifold, where i turned in some pipes (don't know the term..)connected 6mm hoses, which come together in a larger pipe, where i connected the brake (servo?) and the idle adjuster on the other side....
And the WUR vacuum is also on this "pipe"
It has 5 6mm connections (4 from inlet, 1 for wur) and 2 big ones on each side, one for brake servo, one for idle valve....
You can see it in this picture, on the right side....










_Modified by jschlappi82 at 7:25 AM 9-21-2005_


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (jschlappi82)*

I know that on the US cars, the WUR isn't plumbed with vacuum. Have you gotten a chance to double check to see if you're getting 12v at the WUR heater plug?


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## jschlappi82 (Jan 9, 2004)

Must there always be 12v on the heater plug? With ignition on ofcourse...


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## dohc (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: (jschlappi82)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jschlappi82* »_Must there always be 12v on the heater plug? With ignition on ofcourse...

When ever the ignition is one, the WUR should be getting power. In my Bentley, testing the electrical component of the WUR requires checking the resistance. I think its 8Ohms, but don't quote me on that. Too high and its probably open or intermitant, too low and its shorting.
No North American VW's had vacuum ports on the WUR, only Audi's did.


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## jschlappi82 (Jan 9, 2004)

The WUR is connected to the fuelpump relais, it's getting the 12v when turning the ignition on, or startting the engine. The resistance is about 22 Ohms (hot) i think thats alright.


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## jschlappi82 (Jan 9, 2004)

Anyone knows what vacuum you're supposed to have? I have -0.2b when idle. 
When i "close" the idle stabilizer i have -0.4b vacuum.
I connected the idle stab. with the brake servo, i don't know if that matters, but i think vacuum is vacuum, not?
I think i need to find somebody who has made cis itb's, and ask them how they did it...


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## oto1979 (Aug 22, 2004)

I have the same setup in my scirocco, what differentiel pressure regulator do your run, I have put one from a passat 16v, it is much better now and I need to find how put it richer pass 5000rpm!!!


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## jschlappi82 (Jan 9, 2004)

Whats a differential pressure regulator? You mean the warm-up regulator?


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## dredward (Nov 11, 2001)

*Re: 1.8 16v ITBs, need some help? *new here* (jschlappi82)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jschlappi82* »_Hello, my name is Joris. I'm located in the netherlands, so sorry for my english. If you don't understand i'll try to explain...
I drive a Scirocco GT2, and i just swapped my old 8v JH engine for a 16v KR engine.
The 16v engine is totally new, with quicker cams (don't know the term, higher lift, different duration), little head-work, adjustable cam-gear, 4-2-1 exhaust 60mm, and Modular Fuel Injection (Injected Throttle-bodies)
I'm running original 16v CIS, but i don't know what spark-timing i'm supposed to use. I've had it on 6 degrees, standard, and now on 10 degrees. On the 10 degrees ignition timing it's "stronger" when driving away (low revs), but i think the overall power is less than with the standard ignition timing. With the std ignition timing it's backfiring a little bit. Is there a good way to determine the ignition timing? I check the combustion (fuel/air ratio) by checking the spark-plugs.
I hope you understand the story, feel free to ask for better explanation. 
Some pic's:
Exhaust:








ITB's:








The engine in place:









where did you get your throttle bodies?


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## jschlappi82 (Jan 9, 2004)

From a tuner nearby, it's coming from a belgium manufacturer (!?), called chadil.
Look at http://www.chadil.be ....


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

*Re: (jschlappi82)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jschlappi82* »_
@Kameirocco: ofcourse you are, ITB's can pass through a LOT more air, but you have to make sure your mixture isn't too lean, because of burning your pistons... I did the complete swap, not one by one, so i don't know the real difference between the std inlet and the ITB's, but i can asure it's moving forward when opening the throttle! And the sound is beatiful!
Only problem: the engine will produce about 30 bhp less, than with stand alone management....

The thing is.... the potential airflow from 4 x throttle plates is just that a potential airflow. The mechanical aspects of the motor to be able to "pump" the air is what makes power (with fueling/ignition to match obviously) - 
Typically more aggressive cams, higher rpm's, but the downside to the CIS with this is lumpy performance cams will upset the metering head, with fueling all over the shop from the pulsations.
Intreresting to see your setup, but not a path I would have followed for the cost.
I started with slide throttle on my 16v, developed onto direct to head throttle bodies, but the key was the mappable management to drive it and make it run nice.
good luck. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by badger5 at 8:31 AM 9-23-2005_


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## dredward (Nov 11, 2001)

*Re: (jschlappi82)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jschlappi82* »_From a tuner nearby, it's coming from a belgium manufacturer (!?), called chadil.
Look at http://www.chadil.be ....


I checked the site. Some is in English and some is in French. I am correct in saying french? I don't speak fren


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## 2035cc16v (May 18, 2000)

*Re: (badger5)*

I am forced to agree with Mr. Brockbank.
















While you have a good idea a little more digging and you could have had a much better system at what appears to be a competetive price...
All that being said though its very possible to make that setup run adequately but it will never be "fantastic" due to basic design flaws...
Strait CIS is a simple beast but its important to control voltages, vacuum and fuel pressures as thats all you got.


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## MK3_16V (Oct 14, 2003)

*Re: (jschlappi82)*

one of the best overhere


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## dredward (Nov 11, 2001)

*Re: (jschlappi82)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jschlappi82* »_From a tuner nearby, it's coming from a belgium manufacturer (!?), called chadil.
Look at http://www.chadil.be ....

Thanx for link http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







. I gotta assume this is a Belgium tuner?


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

*Re: (2035cc16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2035cc16v* »_I am forced to agree with Mr. Brockbank.
















While you have a good idea a little more digging and you could have had a much better system at what appears to be a competetive price...
All that being said though its very possible to make that setup run adequately but it will never be "fantastic" due to basic design flaws...
Strait CIS is a simple beast but its important to control voltages, vacuum and fuel pressures as thats all you got.


Hello Friend.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## dredward (Nov 11, 2001)

*Re: 1.8 16v ITBs, need some help? *new here* (jschlappi82)*

Joris i am an idiot. I didn't read your original. You're Dutch http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







. I spent my Honeymoon in the Netherlands. I was in Den Haag, Leiden, Utrecht, and Amsterdam. 
On topic you should look into Mega squirt to fuel your throttle bodies. However it will be interesting to see you fuel it with cis as i've never seen it done. I will keep my eyes on this one. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## jschlappi82 (Jan 9, 2004)

I know i should megasquirt them, but that will cost me about 2500 euro extra.
It can be done with CIS, there are many competetions here, where they use itb and cis....
@dredward: Liked your vacation?


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## Clint VW VW wood (Oct 28, 2003)

Doesnt the MAF setup for CIS cars negate the benefit of having 4 TB's?? The old "Bottleneck" syndrome...
My idea was use standalone with ITBs on a 16v and make a box without a top on it that goes around them.. then cut a small scoop in the hood where the box meets it. Some rubber sealant and an airfilter and boom outside fresh air.
I wish the CIS fuel dizzy would work upside down.


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## oto1979 (Aug 22, 2004)

The differentiel pressure regulator is in the side of the CIS Unit, the 2 pin plug!!!


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## dohc (Sep 28, 2001)

*Re: (oto1979)*


_Quote, originally posted by *oto1979* »_The differentiel pressure regulator is in the side of the CIS Unit, the 2 pin plug!!!

But he says he's using CIS basic, which doesn't have a DPR, but a WUR.


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## jschlappi82 (Jan 9, 2004)

Yes dohc, that's right.
The fourth injector was leaking, fixed this.
Maybe my cams aren't in the right timing.
I first have to fix the duct-tape and inlet, then i need to fix the throttle-cable and idle adj. screw. Then the cams need to be clocked, and then i can adjust the cis....


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## mr.brown (Oct 26, 2003)

*Re: (jschlappi82)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jschlappi82* »_I know i should megasquirt them, but that will cost me about 2500 euro extra

That's cheap. Just for my ITBs I gave Mr.Brockbank nearly a grand








Yay for ITBs in Sciroccos BTW. Here's mine in my mk1 (not running yet) -










_Modified by mr.brown at 1:56 AM 9-29-2005_


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## dredward (Nov 11, 2001)

*Re: (jschlappi82)*

I loved it so much i didn't want to leave. I took several rolls of vw and car pics. I am glad i didn't get caught up in just Amsterdam and was able to see Holland. I have a few good dutch friend from the U.S. and the Netherlands. One of my cousins went to the communications school in Leiden. To quote a fello dubber "If it aint Dutch it aint much" http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







I hope to go to Germany and holland again in nxt few yrs. I want to get an international liscense and drive cause i will be haveing a child soon http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif . Cheers my dutch friend http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## jschlappi82 (Jan 9, 2004)

Yeah, party on!
I carefully read the manual another time, as i come by a section wich gives the control pressure by the wur. It said: Vacuumline attached: 3.5 to 3.8 bar control pressure. The next line: Vacuumline NOT attached: 2.55 to 2.75 bar.
So by disconnecting the vacuum of the WUR, i dropped the control pressure. It's now on 75% "choke" as you will.
It's driving much better now, i have a wider range of torque and power. It's strong at low revs, and fly's at high revs.
Next week the inlet will be ready. (Goodbye duct-tape) 
Little by little i'm getting further...
Greets, Joris


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## jschlappi82 (Jan 9, 2004)

Inlet is ready, complete alum. till the meter-valve (one hose)
Adjusted my thottle-valves (synchronise..)
It's driving much better now, but still not optimal. I changed my oil, and there was some metal-parts in it! Very little parts, so i had to clear everything, i hope no crucial components were damaged. 
I'll change it another time, but i think theres no more metal in there...
Drove it to top-speed, 230 km/h on the speedo. Not very nice speeds to drive such an old booger! 
Ill post pics soon...


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