# TDI Ran Out Of Gas - Don't know how to bleed the lines



## Parasyro (Jun 27, 2007)

I work business of fixing local peoples' cars out of my house for extra $. I'm pretty big in the Honda/Acura game but I do enjoy VW's since fixing them is easy (neat & fun).
So I guess you can say I welcome VW's/Audis/Hondas/Acuras more than any other car.
In any event, I know nothing on diesels. This woman dropped a MKIV 1.9TDI outside my house (she had her husband tow it with a dolly here...). She ran out of gas. Now from what i hear (and apparently she heard the same thing), when you run out of gas on a diesel, you can't just fill it up and be on your way, you have to bleed the lines. I heard it's the same crap that you have to do when you change a TDI fuel filter...but I haven't changed one of those either...the GLS is easy...but the TDI is "easy" - but then apparently u gotta bleed the lines and that's a pain.
So I got diesel fuel for this thing, but I need to bleed the lines. I didn't put it in yet as I don't know the proper bleeding order, but I got the fuel, I got the tools, and I got a short amount of time to get this **** done. 
I was VERY surprised when I used the search feature to not find much/any help in the TDI forum under the search term "bleeding" - so Blah.
Someobody's instructions would be good, I find it hard to believe that nobody's written a how-to on it, but I searched for like 45 minutes last night w/o much luck. 
I tried cranking this thing over but it's not going anywhere, ran it like 25 miles past the "0 miles remaining until you're out of fuel" thing on the computer, and she said it was misfiring like crazy for like 20 - so I'm gonna say that this thing is bone f8cking dry.
Help = Thanks.


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## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Use a Mityvac on the return line from the fuel filter, after the white thermostatic tee-fitting on top of the filter, to suck fuel through the whole system. Then after you get the air out, crack all four injector lines loose at the fitting on each injector. Crank the engine until you get fuel spurting out of two of the fittings. Snug the fittings and start the engine (it'll start on two cylinders), that'll work the air out of the rest. Drive it for 10 or 15 minutes to finish getting the air out. Then give the driver a smackdown and tell them not to do it again ...


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## TurboDieselTech (Jul 24, 2005)

*Re: (GoFaster)*

You should never open the injection lines on a TDi and crank the engine. First, it's a total waste of time and unnecessary. The same amount of fuel will be pushed down those lines if the lines are open or not. Remember you're dealing with a pump that precisely meters fuel. Opening the lines won't make the pump deliver any more fuel that it's supposed to. 
Second, and MOST important. Opening the #3 line will cause a code to be stored in the ECU and the engine will run in limp-home mode if it runs at all. The #3 injector has a needle lift sensor and if the ECU sees no movement of the needle, then it will generate a code and put the system in limp-home mode. Meaning, no power and no turbo.
One of our customers had to find this out the hard way. He ended up having the car towed to us... Once I cleared the code for the needle lift sensor, it started and ran just fine.


_Modified by TurboDieselTech at 11:56 AM 11-24-2007_


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## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

If there's air in the injector pump, that #3 injector code will already be stored.
Re disconnecting the lines, what you've said is true as long as the system is PRIMED, but if the system has lost prime, it's hard to get the pump pumping unless the lines "leak" to atmospheric pressure.


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## TurboDieselTech (Jul 24, 2005)

*Re: (GoFaster)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GoFaster* »_If there's air in the injector pump, that #3 injector code will already be stored.
Re disconnecting the lines, what you've said is true as long as the system is PRIMED, but if the system has lost prime, it's hard to get the pump pumping unless the lines "leak" to atmospheric pressure.

I have to differ with you on that point... air will also lift the needle as it escapes the injector. The lift sensor is sensitive enough to detect that lift too. 
The pump is self priming as are all Bosch VE pumps. The pump primes itself with the feed pump, which is an open circuit pump. Meaning... it pumps fuel into the pump housing and expels the fuel AND air through a return line. The fuel pressure inside the housing is about 42 psi at idle, around 20 psi while cranking, when the delivery piston comes back to fill the chamber with fuel, the fuel pressure pushes the air out of the chamber, fills the chamber with fuel, and a metered amount of fuel is forced down the metal pipes to the injectors as the plunger moves into the chamber. So how is air in the lines going to stop or even slow down that fuel being pushed in excess of 250bar (3300psi)?


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## elweasel (Jun 9, 2007)

*Re: TDI Ran Out Of Gas - Don't know how to bleed the lines (Parasyro)*

Try searching and/or posting at TDIclub.com. VWVortex is not so good on covering diesel vw's.


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## instg8r (Sep 22, 2003)

*Re: TDI Ran Out Of Gas - Don't know how to bleed the lines (elweasel)*

i dont know if this helps, but i ran out of fuel once on the side of the road with my 96 passat tdi....a farmer gave me some diesel.....i put it in and started the car.
it started up alomst right away and drove fine.


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## Vincent Waldon (Jan 9, 2007)

*Re: TDI Ran Out Of Gas - Don't know how to bleed the lines (Parasyro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Parasyro* »_ 
I was VERY surprised when I used the search feature to not find much/any help in the TDI forum under the search term "bleeding" - so Blah.


Bottom line: the system is self-priming... has been since the late 1970s... so that's why you didn't find much with search. No loss.... what you would find would be people asking "how do I prime" and a bunch of people shouting IT'S SELF-PRIMING DUDE !!!
You can however help it along...
Second-best option: prefill the fuel filter with fuel. Best to do this thru the inlet port, so that whatever diesel you pour in there gets filtered as per normal. In practice easier said than done, since the fittings are all factory one-time clamps.
Best option (and previously suggested): apply suction at the out port of the IP... this draws clean filtered fuel thru the entire system the way the VW gods intended, and if priming is the issue you can rest assured she's primed when you get fuel from the out fitting.
How most people do it: crank in 30 second bursts with a couple of minutes of pause in between to let the starter cool down. Assuming nothing else is or was wrong when it stopped this will eventually work... usually after a couple of cycles max.




_Modified by Vincent Waldon at 7:36 PM 11-24-2007_


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## Parasyro (Jun 27, 2007)

Alright, uhh..
I'm not gonna say I'm not confused, b/c that would be a complete understatement.
I don't have any mighty max pumps or any special VW tools for suckin **** out and pumpin **** in so let's just leave that to rest for now.
So theoretically, I can just go out there, slap a charger on it, put fuel in the tank, and crank (I hear the method is crank for 10 seconds, let it cool off for 10 seconds) until it starts?
I would put fuel in the filter but you mentioned "one time use clamps"
So is that the deal or am I missing something? I was under the impression I had to open the hoses going to the cylinders, I don't know anything about any float needles or any crap though.
Somebody told me '96-'03 won't self prime (as you , vincent said they all primed self primed since the late 70's).
Well there's like 50 different views here with contrasting opinions, methods, and knowledge bases (X is wrong, Y is right; Z is right, Y is wrong, so on and so forth).
Anybody got a final answer here??
****
One person says black, the other says white.


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## TurboDieselTech (Jul 24, 2005)

*Re: (Parasyro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Parasyro* »_....So is that the deal or am I missing something? I was under the impression I had to open the hoses going to the cylinders, I don't know anything about any float needles or any crap though.
Somebody told me '96-'03 won't self prime (as you , vincent said they all primed self primed since the late 70's).


I work in a certified Bosch repair facility and have been rebuilding pumps for almost 10 years. All Bosch VE series injection pumps used on VW and any other automotive application are self priming. There is no need to open any injection lines to prime the pump. If the fuel system is intact with no leaks, has a good fuel filter, and the injection pump isn't worn out, then it will lift the fuel from the tank and prime itself. 
You want a bottom line? Put some fresh diesel fuel in the tank, tow the car down the street at about 20 mph, drop it in 4th gear, turn the key on and slowly let the clutch out. Let the engine spin its a$$ off for about 1/4 mile. If it doesn't start, then there's another problem. and you'll need to come back and tell us.


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## Parasyro (Jun 27, 2007)

*Re: (TurboDieselTech)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TurboDieselTech* »_
I work in a certified Bosch repair facility and have been rebuilding pumps for almost 10 years. All Bosch VE series injection pumps used on VW and any other automotive application are self priming. There is no need to open any injection lines to prime the pump. If the fuel system is intact with no leaks, has a good fuel filter, and the injection pump isn't worn out, then it will lift the fuel from the tank and prime itself. 
You want a bottom line? Put some fresh diesel fuel in the tank, tow the car down the street at about 20 mph, drop it in 4th gear, turn the key on and slowly let the clutch out. Let the engine spin its a$$ off for about 1/4 mile. If it doesn't start, then there's another problem. and you'll need to come back and tell us.

Ha, yeah, that would do it, I don't have that many people though. It's ice cold and I got crap to do today, so iono what's getting done today.
Though that's just what I'ma do, put the 5 gallon thing o fuel in it, and just do a 10 second hold the turnover, 10 second rest - until it starts. I'll hook up the AC battery charger so it won't go dead.
Sound aight?


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## wjbski (Feb 1, 2003)

*Re: (Parasyro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Parasyro* »_
Ha, yeah, that would do it, I don't have that many people though. It's ice cold and I got crap to do today, so iono what's getting done today.
Though that's just what I'ma do, put the 5 gallon thing o fuel in it, and just do a 10 second hold the turnover, 10 second rest - until it starts. I'll hook up the AC battery charger so it won't go dead.
Sound aight?

sounds like you have no business calling yourself a 'mechanic'- you have no desire to learn about the vehicle that you want to 'fix' and you have no desire to buy the proper tools to fix it. Maybe you should tell the victim, I mean customer, that you don't know the first thing about TDi cars and are unable to fix it. 
If all of the fuel is truly out of that pump, and you start cranking it to get it to prime, that pump has no internal lubrication( that's what the diesel fuel does- it lubricates the internal pieces of the pump) it will harm the pump. Are you ready to shell out $1100 for a pump, plus the price of a competent mechanic/technician to fix your mistake? I didn't think so, because you won't spend $15 to buy a hand held vac pump to bleed this pump right now.


_Modified by wjbski at 9:43 AM 11-25-2007_


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## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

While I agree that the pump is theoretically "self priming", if you are starting with a bone dry fuel system it is going to take A LOT of cranking to get the engine going. During that time, the injector pump is running dry inside.
My method (Mityvac + confirmation of fuel at injectors) will result in the engine starting on the first crank after tightening the lines and NO operation of the injector pump "dry".
Do not worry about the fuel line clamps. Do what you need to do to fill the fuel filter with fuel. If you have no way of doing the Mityvac route, you can pull the thermostatic tee out of the fuel filter and fill the fuel filter directly through a funnel at that point. This will help a lot with starting but still won't be as good as positively filling the fuel pump with the Mityvac. Filling the fuel filter directly, at a minimum, will save you A LOT of time.


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## TurboDieselTech (Jul 24, 2005)

*Re: (GoFaster)*

Nothing theoretical about the pump being self priming... read some of the service manuals on Bosch pumps... it's a fact. I do agree that using a vacuum pump on the return line will speed things up and save wear from lack of lubrication. My only point was opening the injector lines is a waste of time on all VW diesels, and a definite no-no on TDi's.
Just an FYI... when you run out of fuel, the pump isn't really running dry. The pump is around 1/4 full. The gear on the governor drive will splash that around and keep things a little lubricated... definitely not as good as having the pump full, but better than nothing at all.


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## wolfsbur (Dec 11, 2004)

*Re: (wjbski)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wjbski* »_
sounds like you have no business calling yourself a 'mechanic'- you have no desire to learn about the vehicle that you want to 'fix' and you have no desire to buy the proper tools to fix it. Maybe you should tell the victim, I mean customer, that you don't know the first thing about TDi cars and are unable to fix it.

_Modified by wjbski at 9:43 AM 11-25-2007_

Years ago I worked for an auto parts place in East Orange, NJ. We delivered parts to several 'indy' shops, that were in fact little more than a guy with a Pep Boys floor jack and some hand tools.
A few of these indies loved to charge customers for installing new ignition modules (sometimes distributors too) on Fords with the FI pump inertia switch (the roads in the city/Newark/Irvington are pretty much potholes) that would often trip on the rough roads. All that was needed was to reset the switch.
The OP is as least trying to find the correct solution--I know many that wouldn't bother http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Parasyro (Jun 27, 2007)

_Quote, originally posted by *wjbski* »_sounds like you have no business calling yourself a 'mechanic'- you have no desire to learn about the vehicle that you want to 'fix' and you have no desire to buy the proper tools to fix it. Maybe you should tell the victim, I mean customer, that you don't know the first thing about TDi cars and are unable to fix it.
If all of the fuel is truly out of that pump, and you start cranking it to get it to prime, that pump has no internal lubrication( that's what the diesel fuel does- it lubricates the internal pieces of the pump) it will harm the pump. Are you ready to shell out $1100 for a pump, plus the price of a competent mechanic/technician to fix your mistake? I didn't think so, because you won't spend $15 to buy a hand held vac pump to bleed this pump right now.
_Modified by wjbski at 9:43 AM 11-25-2007_

No business calling myself a mechanic? Guess it's a good thing I didn't then, eh? 
Look man, you can think of me as an ******* all you want, I'm a student and don't have cash coming out my *******, especially to buy special parts (like the cam shaft depressing crap tool to hold the cams in position so you can slide the timing belt over them on the newer Audis) that I'll only use once.
I don't know how things are where you guys are, but here the TDI is damn near illegal because it fails emissions test, and you're lucky if you see one once a month. I think it's safe to say I see more (DIFFERENT) Vipers on a regular basis than I do 1.9 TDI's. I work on this woman's car regularly but never had to do anything with the fuel system, and chances are I'm not gonna get a lot of $$ for getting it started anyways...
Also, the fuel is never out of the pump, even if you run it bone dry, it may not be on full lube detail, but it won't be like running it bone dry, it can't pump it all out, it's not possible, it needs more pressure from what it's sucking up. So it may not be the best thing in the world, but it's not running it dry.
Moving right along to the important responses:

_Quote, originally posted by *GoFaster* »_While I agree that the pump is theoretically "self priming", if you are starting with a bone dry fuel system it is going to take A LOT of cranking to get the engine going. During that time, the injector pump is running dry inside.
My method (Mityvac + confirmation of fuel at injectors) will result in the engine starting on the first crank after tightening the lines and NO operation of the injector pump "dry".
Do not worry about the fuel line clamps. Do what you need to do to fill the fuel filter with fuel. If you have no way of doing the Mityvac route, you can pull the thermostatic tee out of the fuel filter and fill the fuel filter directly through a funnel at that point. This will help a lot with starting but still won't be as good as positively filling the fuel pump with the Mityvac. Filling the fuel filter directly, at a minimum, will save you A LOT of time.

Why the heck does it take so long to force it out of the lines?
Yeah, I'll pull the tee and fill up the filter, that's a given.

_Quote, originally posted by *TurboDieselTech* »_Nothing theoretical about the pump being self priming... read some of the service manuals on Bosch pumps... it's a fact. I do agree that using a vacuum pump on the return line will speed things up and save wear from lack of lubrication. My only point was opening the injector lines is a waste of time on all VW diesels, and a definite no-no on TDi's.
Just an FYI... when you run out of fuel, the pump isn't really running dry. The pump is around 1/4 full. The gear on the governor drive will splash that around and keep things a little lubricated... definitely not as good as having the pump full, but better than nothing at all.

If they prime themselves, what would happen if I just turned the key to stage II (where the fuel pump usually primes) and leave it like that (with the dummy lights on and such) for a few?


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## wjbski (Feb 1, 2003)

*Re: TDI Ran Out Of Gas - Don't know how to bleed the lines (Parasyro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Parasyro* »_I work business of fixing local peoples' cars out of my house for extra $. 

isn't that what a mechanic is? A contractor a person (customer) hires to fix a specific issue? You just seem to want to make excuses for your lack of caring to use a tool that will help fix this issue. You would never use a minivac to check something on a honduh/acura? Tell the customer that you need this tool to fix the car and include it in the price of the repair.
Folks have even tried to help you by explaining how to take off the thermostat 'T' on the FF and refill the filter with fuel. I'd love to what you'll do when you lose the 'mickey mouse' ear clip and you can't re-seat the fitting, because I'm sure you won't want drive to VW and spend the $2 for a new one.
Do you own a pair of pliers? remove the reusable spring clamp on the return line on the filter and backfill the pump with fuel by putting a small funnel into the rubber line and pouring some diesel into the funnel.


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## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

*Re: (Parasyro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Parasyro* »_If they prime themselves, what would happen if I just turned the key to stage II (where the fuel pump usually primes) and leave it like that (with the dummy lights on and such) for a few?

You are still in the mind-set of the car having an electric fuel pump.
The pump inside the main injector pump only rotates when the engine is rotating. You can leave the key in whatever position you want with the engine not running until the cows come home, and the whole thing will happily sit there doing absolutely NOTHING!
Prime the system and make your life easier.


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## 89 (May 4, 2005)

*Re: (GoFaster)*

This may not be vortex approved but it has worked for me.
Get yourself a fully charged jump pack and put it on the car. Next just crank the motor until it starts only stopping to let the starter cool down every once in a while


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