# Mk4 Tie Rod Flip Kit



## Travy (Jan 13, 2004)

I know it just came out, but is anyone running the Tie Rod Flip Kit from Euro Image Tuning yet? Just wondering how much lower people are getting since their site says you will no longer need to notch your frames for tie rod clearance. http://euroimagetuning.myshopify.com/products/mk4-tie-rod-flip-kit


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## 74vwsb (Sep 30, 2004)

I would be concerned with bump steer since you are only flipping the tie rods and not extending the ball joints. The tie rod and control arm are designed to move in a particular "motion". Change one and you should expect bump steer. Guys have been running these on air cooled's for years. I researched these kits in the air cooled, MK2/3 market with limited positive results, even when combined with the ball joint extenders. People complain about it sometime _increasing_ bump steer.

My advice, TT/r32 spindles or H2sport spindles. I have a set of TT spindles waiting for me to put on. I'm not notching anymore.


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## LOW36 (Jan 18, 2008)

I don't mind chopping up my frame.


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## blue bags (Jul 1, 2009)

I intend on running them. hopefully should have them sooner than later. Ill post up once i do


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

I'm curious to see how these work on the mk4. Watching for results opcorn:


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## ForVWLife (Nov 12, 2004)

personally i dont see the need for these

im subframe on ground with room to spare between tie rods and frame

but like stated....a tt or r32 spindle will make these unnecessary


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## ForVWLife (Nov 12, 2004)

i actually may pick up a set of these and use them in an old set of spindles i have

who wants to buy spindles with them already installed? :laugh:


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## Travy (Jan 13, 2004)

blue bags said:


> I intend on running them. hopefully should have them sooner than later. Ill post up once i do


Thanks, Can't wait to see it dude. 



ForVWLife said:


> personally i dont see the need for these
> 
> im subframe on ground with room to spare between tie rods and frame
> 
> but like stated....a tt or r32 spindle will make these unnecessary


$15 vs price of new spindles... Just thought for $15 it might be something worth looking in to, w/o having to hack up my frame. I would love to do a full R/TT front swap so I could get a little camber going too.. but dollar for dollar I wouldn't mind testing this option out first to see how well it works


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## CoopersVR6 (Jul 30, 2007)

i ordered some for the hell of it, have always heard the mk3 people say not to run them cuz they will mess up the steering


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## blue bags (Jul 1, 2009)

my car touches down barely , I had to air hammer my tie rods. but it is resting on the tierods on both sides still, im hoping this will make it lay easier, and not put pressure on them. I think it just depends on the car and the wheel and tire setup.

i would do the R32 spindles, but it doesnt suck the wheels in like the stock ones and i think that will be a crucial element in my new wheels fitting well in the front


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## Retromini (Nov 7, 2004)

Interested in seeing how this goes.

This should also address the crazy toe issue when aired out on mk4's right?


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## Santi (Mar 26, 2004)

Waiting to get mine in.. Ordered 2 sets, hopefully by this weekend... 

I'll have pics of them once they are in, and of install!!


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## AzDubN (Nov 16, 2007)

I got my set on Monday. I'm hoping to get them put in over the weekend.


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## Swoops (Nov 16, 2004)

74vwsb said:


> I would be concerned with bump steer since you are only flipping the tie rods and not extending the ball joints. The tie rod and control arm are designed to move in a particular "motion". Change one and you should expect bump steer. Guys have been running these on air cooled's for years. I researched these kits in the air cooled, MK2/3 market with limited positive results, even when combined with the ball joint extenders. People complain about it sometime _increasing_ bump steer.
> 
> My advice, TT/r32 spindles or H2sport spindles. I have a set of TT spindles waiting for me to put on. I'm not notching anymore.


this exactly. increased bumpsteer will be an issue with just these tierod flip kits.


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## Beitz DUB (Sep 22, 2008)

Give me some bumpsteer. watching:beer:


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## fancy sauce (Jan 28, 2009)

In for results.


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## Aronc (Jan 30, 2006)

Curious to know also


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## BradenE (Aug 25, 2005)

fancy sauce said:


> In for results.


this


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## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

Subscribed


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## SuperBacon (May 8, 2006)

CoopersVR6 said:


> i ordered some for the hell of it, have always heard the mk3 people say not to run them cuz they will mess up the steering


Only if you don't extend the balljoints as well


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## macster9090 (Jul 1, 2008)

show me!


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## jdotlim (Jun 2, 2008)

waiting for results.


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## kilimats (Mar 5, 2006)

jdotlim said:


> waiting for results.


x2


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## Us2bA4dr (Apr 10, 2003)

these and notch would put your car underground travy...do it...


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## martin13 (Apr 20, 2010)

Us2bA4dr said:


> these and notch would put your car underground travy...do it...


you wouldnt need a notch if you got these...


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## jdotlim (Jun 2, 2008)

martin13 said:


> you wouldnt need a notch if you got these...


ignorance sucks...but i am not even sure how this would even be installed. anyone care to share?


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## NDubber (Sep 11, 2006)

jdotlim said:


> ignorance sucks...but i am not even sure how this would even be installed. anyone care to share?


 they are a tapered sleeve, designed to match the taper of the ball joint, what you do is drill out the original ball joint hole and use the sleeve to reverse the taper so that you can "flip" the tie rod and re install it so the ball joint is mounted on the under side of the spindle instead of on top.


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## martin13 (Apr 20, 2010)

jdotlim said:


> ignorance sucks...but i am not even sure how this would even be installed. anyone care to share?


if you're saying im ignorant. i was talking about a tie rod notch, i realize you still need one for the axle...


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## Santi (Mar 26, 2004)

I got mine, and was ready to install them until I was looking for a 11/16s drill bit and can't find one anywhere... 

For those of you installing this make sure you have the right tools before you start taking it all apart... 

Hopefully I can find one soon... I would recommend you find it locally before you buy the flip kit otherwise order the bit from Euro Image!!


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## ForVWLife (Nov 12, 2004)

NDubber said:


> they are a tapered sleeve, designed to match the taper of the ball joint, what you do is drill out the original ball joint hole and use the sleeve to reverse the taper so that you can "flip" the tie rod and re install it so the ball joint is mounted on the under side of the spindle instead of on top.



what? this is a tie rod kit....nothing to do with ball joints is touched here


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## Retromini (Nov 7, 2004)

ForVWLife said:


> what? this is a tie rod kit....nothing to do with ball joints is touched here


....the tie rod has a ball joint, which is what you're flipping.:laugh:


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## ForVWLife (Nov 12, 2004)

Retromini said:


> ....the tie rod has a ball joint, which is what you're flipping.:laugh:


:laugh::laugh: ok you got me there.....but "ball joints" usually are these


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## Retromini (Nov 7, 2004)

Santi said:


> Hopefully I can find one soon... !


mcmaster.com Santi :thumbup: They usually ship quickly if you don't have one near by to will-call at.


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## Santi (Mar 26, 2004)

Retromini said:


> mcmaster.com Santi :thumbup: They usually ship quickly if you don't have one near by to will-call at.


good idea!! I saw Sears should have it I'm going to try there... Home Depot didnt, Lowe's didnt.. 

I'm going to try local as much as possible..


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## fancy sauce (Jan 28, 2009)

Gonna check to see if I can get one locally for less than $21 dollars that euro image sells...
Either way 15-36 bucks to avoid adding additionalframe notches definitely seems worth it.


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## fancyTHIS (Sep 30, 2007)

Im for results for sure, ordering a set shortly.


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## Jetta11J (Feb 20, 2005)

watching :beer:


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## NDubber (Sep 11, 2006)

ForVWLife said:


> :laugh::laugh: ok you got me there.....but "ball joints" usually are these


 yes that is a ball joint, but it gets the name from the style of joint it is, so it can be used in multiple locations and still be a ball joint.


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## Vdubed13 (Jun 6, 2008)

installing mine tomorrow :thumbup:


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## jdotlim (Jun 2, 2008)

someone please write-up a DIY when you receive them.


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

Grainger is another good local supplier, they have branches everywhere. 

Does Euro Image recommend gluing these in? If yes, I recommend testing the bumpsteer before gluing.


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## big bentley (Jun 6, 2001)

interesting..


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## NDubber (Sep 11, 2006)

jdotlim said:


> someone please write-up a DIY when you receive them.


 what for? if you cant look at those and figure out how they work, you shouldnt be working on your vehicle.


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## joelzy (Aug 20, 2007)

Afazz said:


> Grainger is another good local supplier, they have branches everywhere.
> 
> Does Euro Image recommend gluing these in? If yes, I recommend testing the bumpsteer before gluing.



i'd be more concerned with drilling out the spindle and not being able to reverse that than gluing.

unless the sleeve can simply be flipped to the underside in order to flip the tie rod back to factory?


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## BradenE (Aug 25, 2005)

what happens if you dont drill the hole perfectly straight?


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## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2009)

joelzy said:


> i'd be more concerned with drilling out the spindle and not being able to reverse that than gluing.
> 
> unless the sleeve can simply be flipped to the underside in order to flip the tie rod back to factory?


The sleeve is more or less press-fit.. no need to glue, and once the tie rod is tightened down it pushes out the material a bit to secure it in place.



BradenE said:


> what happens if you dont drill the hole perfectly straight?


you have a pretty large pilot hole, would be hard to not drill it straight "enough"


side note: we found that aftermarket and oem tie rod ends sometimes have different lengths (internal threaded section) so in some cases the inner tie rod needs to be shortened in order to get alignment into spec.


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## [email protected] (Oct 28, 2009)

joelzy said:


> unless the sleeve can simply be flipped to the underside in order to flip the tie rod back to factory?


And yes Joel, that shouldn't be a problem.


DIY with hints and tips from us should be coming in the next few days. :thumbup:


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## Flat Black VW (Nov 25, 2007)

tuning in to see results


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## Señor BigJuts (May 19, 2005)

waiting for the results


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## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2009)

Flat Black VW said:


> tuning in to see results





Señor BigJuts said:


> waiting for the results


what results? clearance wise.. driving wise?

with drivers side axle hitting the frame tie rods have ~1" of clearance until touching the frame. went from not laying subframe to subframe solid on the ground after finishing up the flip.


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## Señor BigJuts (May 19, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> what results? clearance wise.. driving wise?


Both. Would like to see the difference and the product installed. Would also like to hear comments from people about how the drive is after and what they think of it overall.


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## fancyTHIS (Sep 30, 2007)

I'm waiting to hear about bump steer, apparently its a problem when doing this, havent heard what happens on mk4's though.


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## [email protected] (Feb 19, 2010)

Kevin, I'm excited to test my set


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## jdotlim (Jun 2, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> And yes Joel, that shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> 
> DIY with hints and tips from us should be coming in the next few days. :thumbup:


perfect, waiting on hints.


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## [email protected] (Oct 28, 2009)

Got pictures, will have diy written by the end of the day. :thumbup::beer:


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## Flat Black VW (Nov 25, 2007)

^^^thats what ive been waiting for... pictures


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## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2009)

Flat Black VW said:


> ^^^thats what ive been waiting for... pictures


theres pics of the clearance and such that have been up on my fb..
Horrible cell pics, but this one shows clearance when axle it touching frame on drivers side:









and sleeve/tie rod installed:









hopefully thatll tie some of you over for the time being


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

What keeps the insert tight in the knuckle? Just friction from the insert deforming into the 11/16" drilled hole?


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## joelzy (Aug 20, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> The sleeve is more or less press-fit.. no need to glue, and once the tie rod is tightened down it pushes out the material a bit to secure it in place.


that


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## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2009)

joelzy said:


> that


yup. and theres no way of it to come out since theres a nut on one end and the end of the tie rod on the other.


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## NDubber (Sep 11, 2006)

Afazz said:


> What keeps the insert tight in the knuckle? Just friction from the insert deforming into the 11/16" drilled hole?


good catch


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## [email protected] (Sep 15, 2010)

:thumbup: For a Amazing Product


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## Santi (Mar 26, 2004)

can't get my driver's side tie rod off... :banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## fancyTHIS (Sep 30, 2007)

Buddy had to replace both his tie rods, tried heating them up, no good, had to cut them off.


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

Santi said:


> can't get my driver's side tie rod off... :banghead::banghead::banghead:


I use the Dan J. Reed method - hammer from the side rather than from below.
http://faculty.ccp.edu/faculty/dreed/campingart/jettatech/tierods/tierods.htm

This loosens the grip on the taper. Use a big hammer.


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## Santi (Mar 26, 2004)

I did something a little different... 

Lifted car from tierod w/ the nut still in and used hammer from the top and tapped on the spindle and dropped!!! 

I tried everything else and it wouldnt budge and no time or car to get new tie-rod ends, so getting it out was the only option... 

I'll post pics later tonight or tomorrow...


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## jimothy cricket (Jul 9, 2008)

Please do santi!


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## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2009)

tie rods pop out nice an easy with the pickle fork :thumbup:


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## jimothy cricket (Jul 9, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> tie rods pop out nice an easy with the pickle fork :thumbup:


I had just repced both of mine at the dealer, so I guess it will be pretty simple for me to install these little fellas.


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## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2009)

so on the issue of bump steer:

On my car (original test car) there was minimal bump steer, or at least not enough to weigh out the benefits of doing the flip.

On a customers car, he had a different scenario, which had an unacceptable amount of bump steer. 

We are pulling the product from the site until I am able to get a proper alignment and figure out why there was such a great difference between the cars. 

Anyone who has/had already ordered and doesn't want to wait, please email me and I will gladly issue refunds.

I am in no way trying to alarm anyone, I am just personally not comfortable with the huge difference in steering response between the cars and feel there needs to be further investigation before allowing these back on the market.


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## SuperBacon (May 8, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> so on the issue of bump steer:
> 
> On my car (original test car) there was minimal bump steer, or at least not enough to weigh out the benefits of doing the flip.
> 
> ...


It's because you are messing with geometry. On a car, the tie rods and the control arm have to be at the same exact angle. If you mess with one or the other, it throws it all out of whack. Either have to do both flip and extend the balljoints (or get fancy with the control arms) or do neither


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## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2009)

SuperBacon said:


> It's because you are messing with geometry. On a car, the tie rods and the control arm have to be at the same exact angle. If you mess with one or the other, it throws it all out of whack. Either have to do both flip and extend the balljoints (or get fancy with the control arms) or do neither


by extending, you mean spacing them further up or down to allow for proper angle?


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## SuperBacon (May 8, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> by extending, you mean spacing them further up or down to allow for proper angle?


exactly. For my mk3 I had to get balljoint extenders. i'll upload a pic


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## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2009)

SuperBacon said:


> exactly. For my mk3 I had to get balljoint extenders. i'll upload a pic


please do. id much rather make a supplemental piece to allow for the use of these since clearance is greatly improved.


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

As Superbacon said, the control arm and tie rod have to be approximately parallel to minimize bumpsteer. Here is a picture of my mk3 with a flipped tie rod and standard balljoint:










Obviously they are not parallel! When you extend the balljoint down, you can bring them back in to parallel and solve lots of problems. Now the problem with the mk4/mk5/mk3 VR6 balljoints is that you can't really design an extender that can tighten properly in place. The only solutions here are a complete new spindle - like H2 Sport has done - or a weld-in extension with a spherical lower balljoint. There is also this type of solution, this was on an old Erickson Motorsport car that I believe was inspired by the VW Motorsport setup.

















The problem with any sort of extension though, even the bolt-in mk2/3, is that the forces in the OEM spindle are increased and the casting becomes a weak point.


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## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2009)

spent the morning roughing out a prototype and am pretty pleased with the static results of the solution. ill post up pics here in a second. CLOSE to parallel.


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## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2009)

same angle suspension loaded and unloaded.


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## BradenE (Aug 25, 2005)

dope kevin, its always nice to see reliable companies putting out good products.


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## Lower it!! (Aug 1, 2007)

Very nice. *high five*


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

Does it go between the control arm and balljoint or balljoint and spindle?


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## ryanmiller (Apr 13, 2006)

oem flip kit ftw


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## crazymoforz (Jan 19, 2006)

my buddy dogdrive is getting the kit for himself and myself, one thing that has been confusing me is that the tire rods are designated to go on one side, and they are angled at the end for this purpose. Im thinking of switching the tie rods (from left to right) , and then flipping them as well. hopefully bump steer will be virtually not noticed. also by doing this, i wont lose the turning radius. Pic for reference


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## OffLineR (Oct 19, 2010)

Since it is custom why we have to drill the spindle?
Can't we have a flip kit that bolted from bottom and top.
Then we wouldn't have to drill the spindle.


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## Aronc (Jan 30, 2006)

OffLineR said:


> Since it is custom why we have to drill the spindle?
> Can't we have a flip kit that bolted from bottom and top.
> Then we wouldn't have to drill the spindle.


The tie rod ends have a slight taper to them, so in order to install them upside down you need to giet rid of the taper or else they would not fit into the knuckle. the part you put in the knuckle that Kevin makes makes the taper now taper from the bottom being the larger portion to it getting smaller on the top, this is opposite stock


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## OffLineR (Oct 19, 2010)

This is what I am suggesting:


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## SuperBacon (May 8, 2006)

idk if the balljoint of the tie rod would work properly that way. And you would have to have some serious custom tie rod ends to get that to work


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## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2009)

drilling the spindle takes no more then 5 mins. not a huge deal.. and making a part like that (if it were to work) would cost FAR too much to make it worthwhile to anyone.

Sidenote:
heading to the shop to knock out a more final version of the balljoint extender. will post pics once i get it finished. trying to get as much done today since ill be out of town tomorrow - tuesday


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## OffLineR (Oct 19, 2010)

I prefer not to alter spindle or buy a new one becuase it is too expensive.
But if the one I suggest works I'll buy the kit.
What would be the price for a kit like that?


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## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

I'd definitely be down for balljoint extenders if they work. Good job Kev.


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## najob08 (Apr 28, 2008)

OffLineR said:


> I prefer not to alter spindle or buy a new one becuase it is too expensive.
> But if the one I suggest works I'll buy the kit.
> What would be the price for a kit like that?


If you "alter" your spindle to fit EuroImageTuning's insert you can easily flip the insert to have the tierod sitting the right way up. :thumbup:


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## 74vwsb (Sep 30, 2004)

Hate to say I told you so, but I told you so. Bump steer is no joke. Those people in this thread who are shrugging it off have never experienced it. It is not just annoying, it's dangerous.

*Glad to see the manufacturer working on a solution to the kit. Hopefully it works out. * 

OfflineR- your suggestion has possibilities, but heim joints suck on a street car. It would also require a "spacer" so that the tie rod can articulate. Then you also have to find a heim joint that can meet the load specs required, articulation angle, and thread pitch of a tie rod end.


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## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

Found an interesting picture...

Many of us know that the ball joints are mounted lower on the TT / R32 spindles but check out where the tie rods bolt up.


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## SMG8vT (Oct 8, 2004)

The H2Sport spindles move the mounting point for the tie rods down even more.


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## NDubber (Sep 11, 2006)

OffLineR said:


> This is what I am suggesting:


 yes, remove the tie rod end ball joint, take it to fastenal and have them match it up to a heim joint. get some hardware to match and be done!


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## JHanna79 (Aug 6, 2006)

Do want. :thumbup:


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## martin13 (Apr 20, 2010)

SMG8vT said:


> Found an interesting picture...
> 
> Many of us know that the ball joints are mounted lower on the TT / R32 spindles but check out where the tie rods bolt up.


exactly. so bottom mount the tie rods on these and you will have good suspension geometry as well as tie rod clearance


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

I believe the TT tie rods are bottom mounted from the factory. H2Sport spindles or TT spindles are probably the single best solution for all these problems - tie rod clearance, control arm binding, bumpsteer, control arm bushing failure, balljoint binding, and tie rod end bending. This shouldn't be a secret, this should be on the top of the list for anyone trying to get really low in a mk4.


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## ryanmiller (Apr 13, 2006)

ive been running the TT spindles for quite some time now. no tie rod notches required but you need to run audi ball joints too. i modified my OEM control arms to fit them, but soon audi tt control arms will find a home under my car.


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## 16v_HOR (Jul 21, 2005)

ryanmiller said:


> i modified my OEM control arms to fit them


 Can you elaborate a bit on this? I would assume it would just be the spacing on the ball joint mounting bolts, but them again I've never compared a TT/R32 and stock mk4 unit side by side.


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## Hustlin (Nov 22, 2004)

Afazz said:


> As Superbacon said, the control arm and tie rod have to be approximately parallel to minimize bumpsteer. Here is a picture of my mk3 with a flipped tie rod and standard balljoint:
> 
> Obviously they are not parallel! When you extend the balljoint down, you can bring them back in to parallel and solve lots of problems. Now the problem with the mk4/mk5/mk3 VR6 balljoints is that you can't really design an extender that can tighten properly in place. The only solutions here are a complete new spindle - like H2 Sport has done - or a weld-in extension with a spherical lower balljoint. There is also this type of solution, this was on an old Erickson Motorsport car that I believe was inspired by the VW Motorsport setup.
> 
> The problem with any sort of extension though, even the bolt-in mk2/3, is that the forces in the OEM spindle are increased and the casting becomes a weak point.



These guys have it exactly right. The only practical way I see this being completely safe / reliable is to weld the ball joint extension on to the spindle. At this point you are pretty much modifying the OEM spindle to mock the TT spindle.

Its a shame that the H2 sport and most TT parts out there are out of many of our price ranges, but a well designed flip kit with ball joint extensions is a viable alternative.

Another thing to consider is the range that this new geometry is designed for.
Without the control arm and tie rod being mounted at the same height in the subframe, there is no way to keep them parallel in the entire range, only where they are supposed to be.

Meaning if you have the car alligned low, you are going to toe in when you air up. Just the opposite of how our cars toe out when you air out. :beer:


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## ryannorris16 (Apr 7, 2008)

i hope these issues get worked out. im sitting on the frame!


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## Hustlin (Nov 22, 2004)

ryannorris16 said:


> i hope these issues get worked out. im sitting on the frame!


Air hammer  Worked for me


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## Señor BigJuts (May 19, 2005)

Hustlin said:


> Air hammer  Worked for me


winner winner chicken dinner :thumbup:

tie rods dont need much clearance, an air hammer should solve the issue fine.


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## Retromini (Nov 7, 2004)

Señor BigJuts said:


> winner winner chicken dinner :thumbup:
> 
> tie rods dont need much clearance, an air hammer should solve the issue fine.


Doesn't solve your roll center issues though


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## Hustlin (Nov 22, 2004)

Retromini said:


> Doesn't solve your roll center issues though



No but airing up does!

At least until I stumble across a set of TT control arms + spindles. :beer:


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## najob08 (Apr 28, 2008)

16v_HOR said:


> Can you elaborate a bit on this? I would assume it would just be the spacing on the ball joint mounting bolts, but them again I've never compared a TT/R32 and stock mk4 unit side by side.


TT/R32 ball joints look like this:


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## ryanmiller (Apr 13, 2006)

the TT balljoints have a larger hole and the spacing is further out. as well they mount on top of the control arm rather than in between the two a arms


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## VR6OOM (Nov 8, 2002)

opcorn:


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## jimothy cricket (Jul 9, 2008)

Whats the plan kevin? Have you found yet another ingenious solution to this tie rod dilemma?


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## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2009)

jimothy cricket said:


> Whats the plan kevin? Have you found yet another ingenious solution to this tie rod dilemma?


got the final prototypes on the car, just waiting on my friend to take it to get an alignment. the angle of the tie rod and control arm are nearly parallel. (better then the first pic i posted)


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## jimothy cricket (Jul 9, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> got the final prototypes on the car, just waiting on my friend to take it to get an alignment. the angle of the tie rod and control arm are nearly parallel. (better then the first pic i posted)


sweetness. does the car handle at all differently?


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## fancyTHIS (Sep 30, 2007)

Whats the word?

I got 5 kits that I need ordered Stat! if everything is good!


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Yeah i would also like to know. Also how tall is this ball joint extender?? It could be the ticket for some people running into troubles with their front sway bar sitting on their control arms :thumbup:


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## fancyTHIS (Sep 30, 2007)

Any word Kevin?


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## jaso028 (Aug 12, 2007)

Ibeen running this flip kit on my car for about a week now... 
I don’t really care for them too much... I have horrible bump steer!! 
Been taking it slow.. since if I hit a dip in the road I feel like the car wants to do its own thing.. 


car just feels all over.. I have taken it and gotten 2 alignments and it does not improve... 

I am not knocking this product by any means.. I think the concept and idea is great... I just personally do not like the overall steering feel... 

I have also swapped Right side to Left and cut my inners down about 1/2" to get a proper alignment... I am not a fan of the feeling...


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## fancyTHIS (Sep 30, 2007)

jaso028 said:


> Ibeen running this flip kit on my car for about a week now...
> I don’t really care for them too much... I have horrible bump steer!!
> Been taking it slow.. since if I hit a dip in the road I feel like the car wants to do its own thing..
> 
> ...


Are you running the extended ball joints as well? Or just the flip kit?


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## jaso028 (Aug 12, 2007)

Eurotuner. said:


> Are you running the extended ball joints as well? Or just the flip kit?


just the flip kit... never knew about the ball joint extenders till this thread.. lol 
I got an email from them last week explaing what to do with the inners and swapping the outers... 

then I see here they are developing the extenders...


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## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2009)

my car hasnt moved since installing the extenders, awaiting the alignment rack at my friends shop to have a long opening to be able to adjust whats needed to be adjusted and go from there. *fingers crossed* tomorrow is supposed to be the day


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## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2009)

and just to be clear this is one of our top priorities at the moment, i really do not want to make this take any longer then necessary. i am just relying on others for the use of their alignment equipment instead of just going to any old shop, i would rather do the alignment myself and be able to readjust as many times as needed... if need be. if everything works out well we will be shipping out the extender kits to those that ordered for free.


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## jaso028 (Aug 12, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> if everything works out well we will be shipping out the extender kits to those that ordered for free.


Thats awesome... I like how you guys stand behind your stuff!! :thumbup::beer:

for now I will still be flipping mine back over until then...

I assume I can flip the sleeve and all will be well also???


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

Do these extenders go between the control arm and the balljoint, or between the balljoint and the spindle? I'm curious to see what they look like :beer:


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## [email protected] (Oct 28, 2009)

Afazz said:


> Do these extenders go between the control arm and the balljoint, or between the balljoint and the spindle? I'm curious to see what they look like :beer:


Between the control arm and balljoint.



jaso028 said:


> Thats awesome... I like how you guys stand behind your stuff!! :thumbup::beer:
> 
> for now I will still be flipping mine back over until then...
> 
> I assume I can flip the sleeve and all will be well also???


Flipping the sleeve over to run the tierods on top is perfectly fine. :thumbup:


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## jaso028 (Aug 12, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Flipping the sleeve over to run the tierods on top is perfectly fine. :thumbup:


awesome good to know, even though I drilled this huge hole I dont lose out!! lol
now the fun will be pulling these sleves out!! :laugh:


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

If it's between the control arm and balljoint, it will not correct any geometry issues and you will still get bumpsteer. It will help the control arm bushings and balljoints from binding up, which is a good thing, but the geometry will still be weird. It's the same as "Z-ing" the control arms, which lowrider guys have done for years.


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## Retromini (Nov 7, 2004)

Yah, in order for it to work you need a balljoint with an extended stud, otherwise just putting a spacer under the balljoint will still have bumpsteer problems. It's the angle of the line drawing between the inner and outer pivot points that matters for the bumpsteer.

You want the extension on the right rather than the spacer shown in the middle if you want to adjust your roll center and bump steer problems.


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## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

depending on how these work out and how rigid they are, I am definitely interested for my track car. It would be nice to drop the front end down and get the control arms level again.


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## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2009)

Retromini said:


> Yah, in order for it to work you need a balljoint with an extended stud, otherwise just putting a spacer under the balljoint will still have bumpsteer problems. It's the angle of the line drawing between the inner and outer pivot points that matters for the bumpsteer.
> 
> You want the extension on the right rather than the spacer shown in the middle if you want to adjust your roll center and bump steer problems.


looks like i know what im doing today


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## vwdgood (Jul 31, 2000)

not to be the debbie downer, but it's pretty clear you guys don't know the correct geometry. i don't think its worth the potential risk when you're selling these for $15 and you don't know exactly how it works.

i think everyone is safer with the smaller notch instead of a product that has no real testing behind it.


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## euro.lo (Oct 19, 2010)

vwdgood said:


> not to be the debbie downer, but it's pretty clear you guys don't know the correct geometry. i don't think its worth the potential risk when you're selling these for $15 and you don't know exactly how it works.
> 
> i think everyone is safer with the smaller notch instead of a product that has no real testing behind it.


If no one where to test and try it, how would we progress?


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## [email protected] (Oct 28, 2009)

vwdgood said:


> not to be the debbie downer, but it's pretty clear you guys don't know the correct geometry. i don't think its worth the potential risk when you're selling these for $15 and you don't know exactly how it works.
> 
> i think everyone is safer with the smaller notch instead of a product that has no real testing behind it.


That's why we pulled them from sales and offered anyone that purchased beforehand a refund. We are back into the beginning stages and will try our hardest to figure out a safe and sound solution. :thumbup:


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## najob08 (Apr 28, 2008)

vwdgood said:


> not to be the debbie downer, but it's pretty clear you guys don't know the correct geometry. i don't think its worth the potential risk when you're selling these for $15 and you don't know exactly how it works.
> 
> i think everyone is safer with the smaller notch instead of a product that has no real testing behind it.


No one is being forced to buy anything. When we modify our cars in anyway it's our decision, not someone's else.


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## SuperBacon (May 8, 2006)

najob08 said:


> No one is being forced to buy anything. When we modify our cars in anyway it's our decision, not someone's else.


that's why 90% of aftermarket parts say "for off road use only"


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## [email protected] (Oct 28, 2009)

http://euroimagetuning.myshopify.com/pages/warranty-returns

Disclaimer at the bottom. :beer:


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## SuperBacon (May 8, 2006)

I rest my case


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## Santi (Mar 26, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> That's why we pulled them from sales and offered anyone that purchased beforehand a refund. We are back into the beginning stages and will try our hardest to figure out a safe and sound solution. :thumbup:


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

You know I'm down to test fit and try anything mk4 related..


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## Vdubed13 (Jun 6, 2008)

Euro Image has the best customer service hands down... what other company would refund you there money for any item....no one oh and let you keep the item and send you the corrected parts once they figure it out.. This stuff doesnt happen over night! Euro Image is a great company with a great bunch of ppl running it and im sure everything will get worked out in the end!:thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2009)

if we were like 99% of the other companies out there we would say, whatever who cares youre modifying your suspension, its to be expected.. 

so today we worked out all the ideas for gettting a ball joint extender that goes between the spindle/balljoint. drawing will be done tomorrow..

bad news.. lathes are tied up with other projects so the prototypes wont be done and tested until next week (probably towards the end of the week)


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## fancyTHIS (Sep 30, 2007)

DAMN!!!!

Knew i should have ordered them right away!


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## [email protected] (Oct 28, 2009)

Vdubed13 said:


> Euro Image has the best customer service hands down... what other company would refund you there money for any item....no one oh and let you keep the item and send you the corrected parts once they figure it out.. This stuff doesnt happen over night! Euro Image is a great company with a great bunch of ppl running it and im sure everything will get worked out in the end!:thumbup:


Thanks for the kind words! We do try our hardest. What most people don't know is that we are a two man operation and on top of that, we're located 1600 miles apart! Working multiple jobs and still keeping EI as successful as it is is not a small feat. When you guys talk about us like that, it really makes us feel accomplished, so thank all of you very much.  :beer:


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## vwdgood (Jul 31, 2000)

najob08 said:


> No one is being forced to buy anything. When we modify our cars in anyway it's our decision, not someone's else.


thanks for clearing that up. i thought i was being forced to buy the product. 

i'm looking out for the public, not some knucklehead that wants to get 1/8" lower with a product that is being designed and reworked with a few people chiming in on vortex because they don't know how to properly produce it.


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## jimothy cricket (Jul 9, 2008)

vwdgood said:


> thanks for clearing that up. i thought i was being forced to buy the product.
> 
> i'm looking out for the public, not some knucklehead that wants to get 1/8" lower with a product that is being designed and reworked with a few people chiming in on vortex because they don't know how to properly produce it.


Im pretty sure no one will DIE from bumpsteer.


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## Vdubed13 (Jun 6, 2008)

vwdgood said:


> thanks for clearing that up. i thought i was being forced to buy the product.
> 
> i'm looking out for the public, not some knucklehead that wants to get 1/8" lower with a product that is being designed and reworked with a few people chiming in on vortex because they don't know how to properly produce it.


:facepalm: did you not see that they are working there hardest to fix the problem...and refunded money.. i mean i dont see you trying to make products for 15 dollars at that not like your paying 80 90 dollars for the item and there saying sorry about you bad luck your on ur own.. They are working on a solution, Kevins a good dude and knows what hes doing and the problem will be fixed :thumbup:


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## Afazz (Feb 10, 2002)

That may be true, which is why I bit my tongue 3 pages ago, but balljoint extenders are serious shiz. EIC seems to be doing the right thing for people who purchased, but customer service and manufacturing capabilities != product design. There are a lot of forces at the balljoint/knuckle interface that get multiplied when you extend the joint in between. This isn't an afternoon worth of work.


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## Vdubed13 (Jun 6, 2008)

Afazz said:


> That may be true, which is why I bit my tongue 3 pages ago, but balljoint extenders are serious shiz. EIC seems to be doing the right thing for people who purchased, but customer service and manufacturing capabilities != product design. There are a lot of forces at the balljoint/knuckle interface that get multiplied when you extend the joint in between. *This isn't an afternoon worth of work*.


This and i think ppl dont realize it takes time!


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## Hustlin (Nov 22, 2004)

It's not rocket science, I or anyone else with a couple years of engineering school can design this piece in an afternoon haha. Personally I don't see it ever working 100% because extending the balljoint the same distance as the tie rod flip is going to throw off camber beyond adjustment (trying to stay cost effective, I am aware that camber adjustment can be done on mk4). By the time custom balljoints are produced you could have had a tt style hub that would work better. Just an outsiders opinion, not looking to bash anyone or be taken too seriously.


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## Retromini (Nov 7, 2004)

jimothy cricket said:


> Im pretty sure no one will DIE from bumpsteer.


A faulty extended balljoint or balljoint spacer could easily lead to your hub/knuckle disconnecting from the car which would inevitably lead to a serious accident if you were driving at speed. Not saying someone is gonna die, but a failure at that balljoint could lead to some serious damage.


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## H2OVWRacr (May 11, 2000)

jimothy cricket said:


> Im pretty sure no one will DIE from bumpsteer.


i guarantee you people HAVE died from bumpsteer....especially severe bumpsteer.

and bumpsteer isn't the only issue that's being talked about. the picture that was posted on their facebook site for their first idea for a "balljoint extender" wouldn't have fixed the problem AND was guaranteed to fail catastrophically. and trust me, when a part failure causes the steering knuckle to no longer be attached to the control arm, it can be catastrophic and fatal.

i'm not bashing the company...they're trying to do the right thing. i'm just saying don't knock the people providing criticism. they're helping and trying to keep people from putting something on their car that could fail or cause an accident.


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## H2OVWRacr (May 11, 2000)

vwdgood said:


> thanks for clearing that up. i thought i was being forced to buy the product.
> 
> i'm looking out for the public, not some knucklehead that wants to get 1/8" lower with a product that is being designed and reworked with a few people chiming in on vortex because they don't know how to properly produce it.


i agree with this. i think the company is trying to their best to do right by their customers, and provide new products. but if you need input from an online car forum about the principles of suspension geometry and load failures to properly design your suspension product, then you probably shouldn't be designing that product.


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## fancyTHIS (Sep 30, 2007)

H2OVWRacr said:


> i agree with this. i think the company is trying to their best to do right by their customers, and provide new products. but if you need input from an online car forum about the principles of suspension geometry and load failures to properly design your suspension product, then you probably shouldn't be designing that product.


You know, they would have done this, seen it didnt work and re-made it.

The forum input just helps skip a step.

Not everyone has the same ideas.


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## [email protected] (Oct 28, 2009)

I assure you all that vortex is not our only source of knowledge.

It is very similar to what Eurotuner. said though; what's wrong with using all of our options as far as seeking advice is concerned? We may not be engineers, but that doesn't mean we aren't capable of learning and producing a solid product. We noticed that a few of you seem quite knowledgeable from some posts in this thread, so why shouldn't we be able to pick your brains to perhaps come across an idea we may have overlooked?

We do not plan on releasing any other products without testing on multiple cars from now on to rule out any type of situation like we ran into with the original flip kit. It was a simple mistake on our part and we owned up to it, trying to right every wrong by giving the customers refunds and letting those who have already drilled their hubs to keep the sleeves so that they can orient their tie rods back to stock position.

We will keep you updated on progress as we try to work out a safe and sound solution. :thumbup:


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## d.tek (Nov 28, 2004)

H2OVWRacr said:


> i agree with this. i think the company is trying to their best to do right by their customers, and provide new products. but if you need input from an online car forum about the principles of suspension geometry and load failures to properly design your suspension product, then you probably shouldn't be designing that product.


what the hell does that even mean? It's a knowledge bank. That's how ANYTHING progresses. The process of sharing knowledge with people is how new and better products become available. 

what better place to get additional help, than a forum dedicated to people who know about this kind of stuff? what the hell is so wrong with getting help from people? There are people like you and vwdgood who's whole mindset would eventually lead to a curb in progress.


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## jaso028 (Aug 12, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> and letting those who have already drilled their hubs to keep the sleeves so that they can orient their tie rods back to stock position.
> 
> We will keep you updated on progress as we try to work out a safe and sound solution. :thumbup:


what a PITA to flip them back though... 

my suggestion to anyone who is flipping them back is to use a 3/8" extension... it will do the least amount of damage to the aluminum sleeve.. they will get stuck on the extension, but once you flip them back it helps as a guide to get them back in... 

Zeb: I was telling Kevin via email or IM... forgot which one.. :laugh:
I noticed when mine where flipped my traction control would activate randomly here or there as well... I don’t know if this is an issue you guys have noticed or not... but random cruising I would hear what sounded like the ABS but the TC light was coming on and the car was bogging down... 

now that they are normal, the issue is gone... So I am not sure there....


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## [email protected] (Oct 28, 2009)

TC initiating like that can be attributed to alignment. I've had it happen before on cars after installing coils from stock height which puts alignment way out when going from stock height to really low. :thumbup:


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## vwdgood (Jul 31, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> I assure you all that vortex is not our only source of knowledge.
> 
> It is very similar to what Eurotuner. said though; what's wrong with using all of our options as far as seeking advice is concerned? *We may not be engineers*, but that doesn't mean we aren't capable of learning and producing a solid product. We noticed that a few of you seem quite knowledgeable from some posts in this thread, so why shouldn't we be able to pick your brains to perhaps come across an idea we may have overlooked?
> 
> ...


if that's not scary, i don't know what is :laugh:

seems like euroimagetuning is a bunch of good guys with great service, but some of the people's defenses for them in this thread are straight up laughable given the nature of this product.


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## jaso028 (Aug 12, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> TC initiating like that can be attributed to alignment. I've had it happen before on cars after installing coils from stock height which puts alignment way out when going from stock height to really low. :thumbup:


I was thinking that.. but it came out dead on all 3 times.. lol 
yes 3x's... but now that they are normal, tc is normal...


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## SuperBacon (May 8, 2006)

jaso028 said:


> I was thinking that.. but it came out dead on all 3 times.. lol
> yes 3x's... but now that they are normal, tc is normal...


traction control? What's that? :laugh:

FU to all the haters in this thread, you go open a business and see how hard it is


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## jaso028 (Aug 12, 2007)

SuperBacon said:


> traction control? What's that? :laugh:


I dont usually have it on.. but the few times I have the last few days I have noticed it...


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## SuperBacon (May 8, 2006)

jaso028 said:


> I dont usually have it on.. but the few times I have the last few days I have noticed it...


traction control and ABS are for wussies


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## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

If EuroImage is looking for engineers to help in the development of new products i am more than willing to lend my services as a Mechanical Engineer. I am currently helping Whiteline develop a FSB that doesn't rub on the control arms when lowered but still gives adjustability and i would love to get some more random product experience. 

Let me know, i do solidworks, inventor, ANSYS and COSMOS stress analysis and a whole bunch more :thumbup:


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## OffLineR (Oct 19, 2010)

I love this community :thumbup:


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## jaso028 (Aug 12, 2007)

SuperBacon said:


> traction control and ABS are for wussies


I like the TC on those snow days!! thats about it... I hate when I forget to turn it off and I get on it, then go to bang 2nd and she falls flat on her face for a split second!! drives me crazy!! 

as far as ABS, I CANT STAND IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :thumbdown::banghead::thumbdown::banghead::thumbdown:
is there a non abs set up for the MKIV? lol 

without triggering the light....


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## 16v_HOR (Jul 21, 2005)

jaso028 said:


> is there a non abs set up for the MKIV?


 Unplug the sensors or cut the abs wire......I personally wouldn't suggest either


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## jaso028 (Aug 12, 2007)

16v_HOR said:


> Unplug the sensors or cut the abs wire......I personally wouldn't suggest either



I would never do either... HA!


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## J.Owen (May 31, 2001)

jaso028 said:


> is there a non abs set up for the MKIV? lol


Although I wouldn't recommend it for a DD or road car, early 98 new beetles had ABS as an option and their is a mk4 non ABS master cylinder.


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## SuperBacon (May 8, 2006)

J.Owen said:


> Although I wouldn't recommend it for a DD or road car, early 98 new beetles had ABS as an option and their is a mk4 non ABS master cylinder.


daily driven mk3 non abs non traction. :thumbup:


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## reynolds9000 (Oct 16, 2003)

I have no ABS or traction control on my car either..


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## Hustlin (Nov 22, 2004)

Thats not the point, the point is that proper geometry is not going to turn one wheel that much faster than the others to the point where the traction control cuts in haha


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## jaso028 (Aug 12, 2007)

Hustlin said:


> Thats not the point, the point is that proper geometry is not going to turn one wheel that much faster than the others to the point where the traction control cuts in haha


thats the answer I was looking for!! :thumbup:

I figured that was the case but I was not 100% sure... but now it kind of makes sense in that simple description!


Thank you!!!


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## Hustlin (Nov 22, 2004)

I'm not sure if those cars have steering angle sensors, that would make it more sensitive.


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## jaso028 (Aug 12, 2007)

Yeah I am not sure either.. 

its just weird to me it could affect it that much.. there where some points even driving straight it would just start going nuts.. but it was only the right wheel!! lol 

either way now they are flipped back to normal and all is well no more issues!! :laugh:


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## 03redgti (Feb 18, 2006)

opcorn:


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## Zach! (Jan 8, 2010)

First off, to anyone doubting Kevin's abilities, take a look at the site, these parts are not just thrown together or dreamt up and spit out. I received a set of center caps from kevin last week that stunned me in quality, fit, and finish. 

In regards to the traction control coming on, my car was out of alignment by 3 degrees due to new tie rod ends and the traction control became stuck on until an alignment was performed.

:thumbup:


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## fancyTHIS (Sep 30, 2007)

Any updates?


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## 2.slowdubbin (Nov 17, 2009)

Anything new? :thumbup:


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## Flat Black VW (Nov 25, 2007)

2.slowdubbin said:


> Anything new? :thumbup:



x2


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## President Lincoln (Jun 27, 2005)

opcorn:


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## artspeed (Dec 19, 2005)

subscribed


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