# Keyless - leave engine running without key?



## Appaz (Oct 30, 2009)

Hi guys!

I have a keyless option.
I am used to start my car at mornings, leaving key inside and getting myself back inside for a coffee. 
So later I would get out and have a warmed up engine and I am ready to go immediately.

Today I got outside, started car and as always went back for my morning coffee.
After getting back out in about 15 minutes, I realized that I forgot to leave keys in car. Keys were in my pocket.
I was surprised when I saw the engine still running.

So I wonder - is this meant to be so? I start engine, not driving anywhere, transmission in Park all the time. I leave with keys and engine is left running - it keeps on running even with no key in range?

Or this was some kind of a bug? 

If this is what is meant to happen. Maybe I can start an engine, get out of car with keys in pocket, lock car and leave it locked with engine running while I am back inside for my coffee?

Anybody knows?

(hope my question is clear...  )


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## eurolok003 (Mar 16, 2009)

It is normal behavior for the keyless-equipped Phaeton. The car will operate normally until the ignition is shut off, at which time the car cannot be restarted. 

--Ming


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## Sarmale89 (Dec 15, 2010)

Appaz said:


> Hi guys!
> 
> I have a keyless option.
> I am used to start my car at mornings, leaving key inside and getting myself back inside for a coffee.
> ...


I can't speak to how the Phaeton keyless ignition system works as my NAR Phaeton only has keyless unlocking and locking but I'm very familiar with Mercedes-Benz Keyless Go system as I sold Mercedes for a few years. Also, my wife's 2006 R500 is equipped with keyless go. I would imagine the systems are similar. Mercedes invented this feature and it first appeared in its W220 S-Class (2000-2006) so I would imagine that other systems are patterned after the one from Mercedes.

Yes, the system is designed so that the car will stay running even if the key leaves the vehicle. Here's a real world example of why the system allows this. Husband and wife decided to head out in the Phaeton. The wife brings her key (in her handbag) and sits in the passenger seat. The husband (driver) starts the car and they're on their way. Husband pulls up to store and drops off wife. Wife exits car with handbag in hand (with the key in it). Husband is able to pull away.

If the system weren't set up like this, the husband would be stuck out in front of the store, in traffic, with a dead Phaeton. The system (again, assuming its the same) does not allow you, however, to restart the car, should you decided to turn it off after the key has left the vehicle. I'm not sure if Phaeton's have this warning light, but in Mercedes with keyless go, a beep and a warning that reads "key not in vehicle" comes up on the MFD a few seconds after the key is removed from a running vehicle.

Bobby


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

The Phaeton will display a "KEY NOT FOUND" message if it has been started using keyless go and subsequently cannot find the key.

The message is filtered, in other words, if the car is going down the road at 80 km per hour and you then put the key into a lead-lined box, you won't be bothered. But, if the car is started using keyless go, and a door is subsequently opened, and then the car can't sense the presence of the key, it will provide you with a message that it cannot find the key.

Michael


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## Appaz (Oct 30, 2009)

So it was a normal behavior then! 
Thank you all very much.


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## Jim Morris (Nov 8, 2008)

It's even possible to lock the car when the engine is running, so you can leave it outside without danger of someone opening it up. Just press lock on the fob when you walk away.


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## lyymdusa (Jan 6, 2011)

I don't think the key fob will work after the car is started. You may have to lock the car manually by using the key blade.


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## Prince Ludwig (Mar 24, 2007)

> It's even possible to lock the car when the engine is running, so you can leave it outside without danger of someone opening it up. Just press lock on the fob when you walk away.


I seem to remember that one forum member's wife borrowed his keyless-start W12, parked and locked it to go shopping and when she returned a few hours found the car very warm and the fuel tank very empty 

Harry


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

lyymdusa said:


> I don't think the key fob will work after the car is started. You may have to lock the car manually by using the key blade.


The locking and unlocking function of the key fob that is actuated by pressing the rubber covered buttons on the key fob will work after the car is started. The 'keyless entry' locking and unlocking function that is actuated by touching the door handle or pressing the small button on the door handle will not work once the car is started (and left running) with the keyless go feature.

Michael


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

lyymdusa said:


> I don't think the key fob will work after the car is started. You may have to lock the car manually by using the key blade.


 My Phaeton will definitely still lock with the key fob with the engine running. I didn't expect it to as my previous car (a lowly Ford) would not, although it would with the blade.

I did this many times whilst it defrosted (and to stop the local oiks stealing it) until I mastered the parking heater!


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## Appaz (Oct 30, 2009)

PanEuropean said:


> The locking and unlocking function of the key fob that is actuated by pressing the rubber covered buttons on the key fob will work after the car is started.


Yeah! That's great! Will give it a try!


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## Rowayton (May 29, 2004)

Anyone tried (on a non key less go NA Phaeton) leaving a key in the running car's ignition and then trying to lock the doors by key blade or push button using one of our other two remaining keys? I'd research my question and self answer but my daughter is using my Phaeton for a few days rendering me temporarily Phaeton less.

Ron


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

Jim Morris said:


> It's even possible to lock the car when the engine is running, so you can leave it outside without danger of someone opening it up. Just press lock on the fob when you walk away.


I routinely do this while checking my mailbox. Figure am saving fuel plus am conserving one start away from the dreaded day when the starter dies and I have to spend $2500 to get it fixed.


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

PanEuropean said:


> The 'keyless entry' locking and unlocking function that is actuated by touching the door handle or pressing the small button on the door handle will not work once the car is started (and left running) with the keyless go feature.



Michael, this is 100% absolutely *not* the case with my 04 P (W12 built Nov 03) nor my 06 T.

While engine is on, and car in P, egress via driver's door, close door.
Lock car via keyfob remote (button on door handle does not lock car).
Hear locking mechanism actuate.
Go away.
Come back.
Pull handle, *door opens*.

I've even tested this by leaving the key a few meters away and reapproaching car. Car is most certainly locked with engine running.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Do you know what the software level of your Access and Start Control (Kessy) controller (controller 05) is? There are a number of different software revisions out there, ranging from 6400 (what the cars originally shipped with) to 67xx. It is possible that the early controllers supported what you report, and the later controllers do not.

Other differences between controller 05 software include the requirement to step on the brake pedal before starting the car, etc.

Michael


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## johnt26 (Dec 3, 2009)

PanEuropean said:


> D
> Other differences between controller 05 software include the requirement to step on the brake pedal before starting the car, etc.
> 
> Michael


Hi Michael...is there a way to update my controller so that I do not need to step on the brake to start the car? I have not installed the keyless start but I will in the future.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 05: Acc/Start Auth. Labels: 3D0-909-13x-05.lbl
Part No SW: 3D0 909 137 G HW: 3D0 909 137 G
Component: Kessy 6850 
Revision: 00H22070 Serial number: VWZ3Z0C7144693
Coding: 0137452
Shop #: WSC 09460 444 999999
VCID: 2B5E002DF379

Part No: 4E0 905 852 E
Component: ELV 2141


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

johnt26 said:


> ...is there a way to update my controller so that I do not need to step on the brake to start the car?


Hi John:

Actually, you're looking through the wrong end of the telescope -  - the _OLD_ controllers that had software 6400 did not require the driver to step on the parking brake prior to starting the car, that oversight was corrected with controllers that have a higher software level than 6400. You have software 6850, which is the highest software version I have seen, which means your car complies with all of the current safety requirements.

Michael


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## johnt26 (Dec 3, 2009)

Thanks Michael!
I haven't had another VW/Audi product that requires stepping on the brake to start the car, only to shift it from Park.
Is that part of the kessey keyless start system?

Are you still "floating around" in the Indian Ocean?


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## Sarmale89 (Dec 15, 2010)

johnt26 said:


> Thanks Michael!
> I haven't had another VW/Audi product that requires stepping on the brake to start the car, only to shift it from Park.
> Is that part of the kessey keyless start system?
> 
> Are you still "floating around" in the Indian Ocean?


John,

Again, I can't offer VW-specific expertise (I'll leave that to Michael), but I know the Mercedes system inside and out (as I used to sell MBs) and by everything I've seen and read, the VW system seems to be patterned after the MB one. 

Depressing the brake pedal is a prerequisite to starting a car with the MB Keyless Go system. This, as Michael eluded to, is a safety consideration. They want to make sure you're in the car when you start it. I believe on the MB system you also have to be sitting in the seat (as measured by the airbag weight sensor in the seat). This desire to have drivers in the driver's seat before ignition explains why no German automaker (that I can think of) offers a remote start function like GM and other American automakers do. Why this requirement is a safety consideration? I don't know. Don't question German engineers. They always know best. 

Bobby


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

johnt26 said:


> I haven't had another VW/Audi product that requires stepping on the brake to start the car, only to shift it from Park. Is that part of the kessey keyless start system?


Hi John:

The requirement to depress the brake pedal prior to starting the car is, I believe, a federal safety standard (FMVSS) that came into effect in the early part of this decade. It is a pretty common requirement nowadays in most vehicles. I recently rented a car in Switzerland (a 2010 VW Golf) that was equipped with a standard transmission, and in that car, it was obligatory to depress the clutch pedal before starting the car, regardless of what gear the transmission was or was not in.

The whole business of sensing whether the various prerequsites for starting have been met (authorized key, transmission in park, brake pedal depressed, etc.) is managed by the Access and Start Control Controller (controller 05), without regard to whether or not the vehicle is equipped with the *K*eyless *E*ntry and *S*tart *Sy*stem (KESSY), which is also managed by controller 05 (if so equipped).

The whole idea of using software to ensure that appropriate safety related steps are taken prior to engine start is not limited to cars - I recently specified software for a new aircraft I am responsible for that monitors the position of the fuel levers, some circuit breakers, and the doorwarning system prior to aircraft engine start. If any of these controls are not in the correct position and the starter is engaged, the pilot is presented with an aural alert and a CAS message when the start sequence is initiated.

Michael


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## johnt26 (Dec 3, 2009)

Thanks for the info gents.
Funny that you brought up remote start Bobby, that's a bit of my problem.
My Ford Flex(ible Flyer) has remote start. Stepping on the brake in that car when I enter it while it's running remotely shuts the engine down! So I'm try to train my foot to wait until the key is turned in that car before depressing the brake.


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## robkassab (Apr 24, 2011)

*Lock doors while eng. running with KESSY*

I live in sunny South Florida and because of the heat, when I leave my car parked for any length of time with my dog in it; I would like to lock the car with the engine running and a/c on. KESSY, on my 2012 JSW, does not let you lock the doors while the engine is running, even though the key fob is in your pocket. Locking can however be accomplished by removing the cap over the driver’s door cylinder lock and mechanically locking the door with the metal key. Anyone know if the ECM allows a reprogram to allow for KESSY locking while the engine is running?


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

robkassab said:


> I would like to lock the car with the engine running and a/c on. KESSY, on my 2012 JSW, does not let you lock the doors while the engine is running, even though the key fob is in your pocket.


When you have keyless-go, it might be possible, at least on mine. With the engine running, I leave the car and press "lock" on the keyfob. No beeps are audible in this case, but the car is locked.
When I get back a minute later, the engine still runs of course, but the only way to get in is by using the "open" button on the keyfob. The doors unlock with the normal double beep announcement. So I guess that is possible, depending on firmware version and coding.

Willem


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## robkassab (Apr 24, 2011)

I think you have an older version because I cannot lock the doors while the engine is running under any circumstances.


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

WillemBal said:


> When I get back a minute later, the engine still runs of course, but the only way to get in is by using the "open" button on the keyfob. The doors unlock with the normal double beep announcement.



Ha!

My 04W12 locks with engine running the same as you but it unlocks by _either_ pulling the handle _or_ with the unlock button on the key fob.

The doors unlock without any beep announcement if the engine is running.

Car built Nov 03.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

I don't know if it is due to an old controller. My 04W12 is of practically the same build date as yours. Below information is about the Kessy:
Address 05: Acc/Start Auth. Labels: 3D0-909-13x-05.lbl
Part No SW: 3D0 909 135 L HW: 5WK 470 22
Component: Kessy 6400 
Coding: 0213228
Shop #: WSC 01065 000 00000
VCID: 2E580CE6864D536C

Perhaps the secret is in the coding, which is rather mysterious anyway. For instance, my W12 is a ROW type with coding 0213228. The NAR version (W12) has coding 0133356.
The difference between W12 and V8 is also very large: 
0213228 for ROW, + Keyless access + 5 speed transmission + left hand drive vehicle
0218348 for ROW + Keyless access + 6 speed transmission + left hand drive vehicle

The logic behind this coding doesn't make sense to me at all.
Willem


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

How I wish I could respond with CANBus data, but alas!, I never did buy the gizmo. 

Here's the serial:

WVWAXXXXXXXX09073

Where the A is for 5 seater and if it had a B it would be 4 seater


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

WillemBal said:


> I don't know if it is due to an old controller... Below information is about the Kessy:
> 
> Address 05: Acc/Start Auth. Labels: 3D0-909-13x-05.lbl
> Part No SW: 3D0 909 135 L HW: 5WK 470 22
> ...


Hi Willem:

My car behaves the same way as yours: If I have started the car using the keyless start feature (the start button), I can then leave the engine running and lock the car doors using the pushbutton on the key fob (but not the pushbutton on the door handle), and I can subsequently unlock the car using the other pushbutton on the key fob (but not by touching the door handle).

I have a newer KESSY in my car (software version 6700), but my car behaves the same way yours does. This leads me to believe that there may be some other variable involved here. That variable could be any one of the following:

*1)* Presence of the start button (never offered as a factory install on the NAR vehicles, only available by owner retrofit - see here: Retrofitting Keyless Start to Phaetons that are equipped with Keyless Entry)

*2)* Adaptation settings (not controller coding) for Controller 05.

*3)* Software and hardware status of controller 46 (the central comfort controller), in particular, the part number suffix of this controller. See the very extensive discussion about how this influences the capability of the remote key fob, at this link: How to enable window operation using the Remote Key Fob

*4)* Adaptation settings (not controller coding) for Controller 46 - in particular, the adaptation setting for channel 25, which is discussed at the link referenced in point 3) above.

For the record, here's the details for controllers 05 and 46 installed in my car:

Address 05: Acc/Start Auth. Labels: 3D0-909-13x-05.lbl
Part No SW: 3D0 909 137 A HW: 5WK 470 19
Component: Kessy 6700 
Revision: 67005614 Serial number: VWZ3Z0C7093074
Coding: 0133356
Shop #: WSC 91426 999 83920
VCID: 254B87B29571

Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 3D0-959-933.lbl
Part No: 3D0 959 933 F
Component: 1A HSG 0100 
Coding: 0000040
Shop #: WSC 98765 666 38212
VCID: 336F69EA2BA5

It is noteworthy that VW has always been much more conservative about enabling advanced functionality and features in cars shipped to the NAR - this because of problems with litigation in the USA. 

Michael


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