# APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages!



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

APR is pleased to announce our Transverse 2.0T FSI Audi S3 and VW Edition 30 GTI Engine Conversion Packages!
The S3/ED 30 Converions Package will upgrade your current 200hp and 207lb-ft Transverse 2.0T FSI Engine with all of the necessary OEM components from the European Audi S3 and VW Edition 30 GTI along with APR's FSI High Pressure Fuel Pump and meticulously recalibrated Engine Management to produce 355 horsepower and 368lb-ft of torque!
































APR's S3/ED 30 Conversion Packages are the next level in OEM based performance for your 200hp 2.0T FSI. By upgrading to the APR FSI Fuel Pump our engineers were able to calibrate an amazingly powerful yet drivable and reliable upgrade for those that wish to maintain a flat torque curve throughout the powerband.
Featuring APR's Patented EMCS program switching functionality and Direct Port Programming, APR's Engine Management Calibration for this conversion package allows for a range of Octane and situation specific calibrations to be installed simultaneously on your vehicle's ECU. These programs and features are able to be cycled through via your existing factory cruise control and activated in less than 20 seconds. You will be able to choose 1 to 4 of the following programs: 
Stock Mode = OEM ECU Settings 
91 Octane Performance = 320hp and 320lb ft 
93 Octane Performance = 323hp and 335lb-ft 
100 Octane Performance = 355hp and 368lb-ft 
Valet Mode = Limits rpm to 4500 and MPH to 70
*It is essential to ensure your vehicle is filled with at least the minimum octane rating for each Performance Calibration when activating the program. 
Installation can be performed at any of APR's Authorized Distributor Network and all parts necessary for the installation except for fluids are included.
We have inventory of these OEM parts arriving daily and the price with the APR Fuel Pump is only $4999 and without the APR Fuel Pump for those that have already installed one is $4399.
APR DOES NOT recommend using our FSI Fuel Pump Calibrations with other FSI fuel pump upgrades.
To order today please visit http://www.goapr.com
_Modified by [email protected] at 8:24 AM 3-16-2008_

_Modified by [email protected] at 9:04 AM 3-16-2008_


_Modified by [email protected] at 9:18 AM 3-16-2008_


----------



## brandon0221 (Mar 7, 2007)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! ([email protected])*


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

very interesting, so you get more for your money now. Kinda sucks only stock engine cover is able to work.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

is this the same turbo you offered b4?


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_very interesting, so you get more for your money now. Kinda sucks only stock engine cover is able to work.

Do you mean you can't use a different manufacturers cold air intake? Due to the d.v. relocation? APR prefers to use the oem airbox for several reasons the most important being the manufacturing tolerances associated with the maf housing and shape. If you choose to use an intake that deviates from the oem maf housing, it seems that you can have a bung added to their intake to accomodate the oem d.v. relocation or an intake designed for the ED 30 or Audi S3!


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_is this the same turbo you offered b4?

No sir!
The previous Ko4 was a low volume production turbocharger manufactured in Germany that has become very difficult to source in large quantities.


----------



## rolopuentebigotudo (Mar 7, 2008)

can i use APR downpipe CD 100013 with thhis kit ?


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (rolopuentebigotudo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rolopuentebigotudo* »_can i use APR downpipe CD 100013 with thhis kit ?

Certainly and it is highly recommended to include our cat back as well.


----------



## rolopuentebigotudo (Mar 7, 2008)

what do you need to get those numbers ? obviosly the kit and a downpipe. but are those numbers of a car fitted wit APR`s IC an carbonio intake or stock IC and engine cover ?


----------



## Kid Hobo (Sep 4, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

... wouldn't the Carbonio intake work?...It works with the factory cover and gives you a bit more throttle responsiveness at speed, looks purdy, and the MAF housing is retained. I mean, why sell yourself short?

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Due to the d.v. relocation? APR prefers to use the oem airbox for several reasons the most important being the manufacturing tolerances associated with the maf housing and shape.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (Kid Hobo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kid Hobo* »_... wouldn't the Carbonio intake work?...It works with the factory cover and gives you a bit more throttle responsiveness at speed, looks purdy, and the MAF housing is retained. I mean, why sell yourself short?


Thanks man! I didn't mention it as most are well versed. Looking for a spot with the APR Sales Team?


----------



## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Do you mean you can't use a different manufacturers cold air intake? Due to the d.v. relocation? APR prefers to use the oem airbox for several reasons the most important being the manufacturing tolerances associated with the maf housing and shape. If you choose to use an intake that deviates from the oem maf housing, it seems that you can have a bung added to their intake to accomodate the oem d.v. relocation or an intake designed for the ED 30 or Audi S3!

I'd like to see you do 355 HP with stock airbox....


----------



## MarylandGuy (Dec 16, 2003)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! ([email protected])*

DSG?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 30, 2007)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (MarylandGuy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *MarylandGuy* »_DSG?

I guess you didn't notice the titles on all the dyno grpahs







No worries. 
All of the dynos were done on a DSG car and we currently have an Imola Yellow Audi A3 DSG equipped with this kit as a shop car. All of the engine calibration and testing was done on a DSG-equipped car. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 




_Modified by [email protected] at 3:37 PM 3-16-2008_


----------



## MarylandGuy (Dec 16, 2003)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I guess you didn't notice the titles on all the dyno grpahs







No worries.

LOL! Wow you're right. I read through Keith's post twice, as well as the product description on the website twice, and didn't see DSG mentioned anywhere! Somehow I completely missed it on the dyno graphs...!!








I guess I've become so used to a lack of DSG support I've gotten lazy.
Ah well...







Thanks, Mike, esp. for DSG support! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! ([email protected])*

This is the kit I've been running for months now on my DSG. Great work guys! Excellent numbers! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (Arin)*

Check it out vs the stage 3 kit.
Mark, untill 3800 rpm's your ass is mine.








Check it out vs the stage 3:


----------



## dubsker (Jan 8, 2006)

dsg handling?


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (dubsker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubsker* »_dsg handling?


----------



## dubsker (Jan 8, 2006)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_









can dsg do it reliably?


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (dubsker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubsker* »_
can dsg do it reliably?

So far so good. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I'm cutting down my dsg oil change intervals.


----------



## D.Passat00 (Feb 29, 2004)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_










nice to see that the oem s3/30th has red hose!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 30, 2007)

*Re: (dubsker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dubsker* »_
can dsg do it reliably?

Keith is being too modest. He should tell everyone about his track day at Barber Motorsports Park with our DSG-Equipped A3 running our S3 Turbo upgrade. The way he reported it to me was that it was "flawless". If there's anyone out there that can break a car, it's Keith. So if he tracked our DSG-equipped A3 with 300whp without a hitch, I doubt there's anything anyone can do to break it.








I'll let Keith tell the story though as I don't want to steal his thunder. 
Honestly though, the car has not shown any hiccups in any street or track driving. We ran it for about 4 days straight on the highway, about 6 hours per day, adjusting the DSG shift engagement under full throttle pulls with 300whp. Even before the final adjustments were made, it didn't have any issues. Keep in mind that the shift adjustments were the last thing we did during development and we were making good power before we even paid any attention to shift quality. 
Not to mention the beating we put on Arin's car when we had it...Oops...did I say that out loud? Just kidding, Arin.










_Modified by [email protected] at 10:04 PM 3-16-2008_


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Not to mention the beating we put on Arin's car when we had it...Oops...did I say that out loud? Just kidding, Arin.









Thanks for the new bumper. 
Squirrel?


----------



## Spax MC (Oct 26, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

oh man finally!!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
what is the upgrade price in software going from stage 2 to k04?


----------



## dubsker (Jan 8, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Keith is being too modest. He should tell everyone about his track day at Barber Motorsports Park with our DSG-Equipped A3 running our S3 Turbo upgrade. The way he reported it to me was that it was "flawless". If there's anyone out there that can break a car, it's Keith. So if he tracked our DSG-equipped A3 with 300whp without a hitch, I doubt there's anything anyone can do to break it.








I'll let Keith tell the story though as I don't want to steal his thunder. 
Honestly though, the car has not shown any hiccups in any street or track driving. We ran it for about 4 days straight on the highway, about 6 hours per day, adjusting the DSG shift engagement under full throttle pulls with 300whp. Even before the final adjustments were made, it didn't have any issues. Keep in mind that the shift adjustments were the last thing we did during development and we were making good power before we even paid any attention to shift quality. 
Not to mention the beating we put on Arin's car when we had it...Oops...did I say that out loud? Just kidding, Arin.









_Modified by [email protected] at 10:04 PM 3-16-2008_

so mike, you are saying that the k04 kit will include dsg recalibrations?


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (dubsker)*

Yes, it's the same thing done for all the other cars with the DSG. Values are changed so it shifts smoothly.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 30, 2007)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_Yes, it's the same thing done for all the other cars with the DSG. Values are changed so it shifts smoothly.

Correct. We alter some parameters in the software to deal with the increased torque going through DSG so we can keep the shift feel of the OEM calibration.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Here is how the K04 kit stacks up against pottermans RSS equipped DSG GTI.
The k04 really spools up quickly and the power just lasts and last and lasts. The RSS looks like it has potential, but it take much longer to deliver the power and still is not topping the k04.










_Modified by Arin at 12:23 AM 3-17-2008_


----------



## HDClown (Oct 24, 2001)

Would this be the same turbo used in AWE's K04 kit?
Any power figures with the APR FMIC added on?


_Modified by HDClown at 7:52 AM 3-17-2008_


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (HDClown)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HDClown* »_Would this be the same turbo used in AWE's K04 kit?

Basically yes... a few k04 kits out there just have different mounting locations for the diverter valve. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_Check it out vs the stage 3 kit.
Mark, untill 3800 rpm's your ass is mine.








Check it out vs the stage 3:


....and after 3.8k ?


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (prodigymb)*

You'll start catching up.


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_You'll start catching up.









cant say that about the RSS kit now .......


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (Arin)*

who drops the hammer below 3.8K








BT cars are toads at low speed, but pull so hard up top you hit the rev limiter all the time because the power never drops off.


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_Here is how the K04 kit stacks up against pottermans RSS equipped DSG GTI.
The k04 really spools up quickly and the power just lasts and last and lasts. The RSS looks like it has potential, but it take much longer to deliver the power and still is not topping the k04.

To be fair, overlay it with the 91 octane K04 run, as Potter was on 91 octane as well... Also, IIRC, that should have been an older "lower boost" file version


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
To be fair, overlay it with the 91 octane K04 run, as Potter was on 91 octane as well... Also, IIRC, that should have been an older "lower boost" file version

Ahh good catch! I'll overlay it on the 91 file.
Do you happen to have an updated DSG Rss plot? I've plotted agains the latest APR stage 3 kit so I just wanna see how the small k04 stacks up in general


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2001)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_Do you happen to have an updated DSG Rss plot? I've plotted agains the latest APR stage 3 kit so I just wanna see how the small k04 stacks up in general









I don't, but I would assume [email protected]/Potter or perhaps the GLI in FL may have one.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

refresh the page... I updated the graph.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (rolopuentebigotudo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rolopuentebigotudo* »_what do you need to get those numbers ? obviosly the kit and a downpipe. but are those numbers of a car fitted wit APR`s IC an carbonio intake or stock IC and engine cover ?

Our A3 is equipped with our S3/ED 30 Conversion, APR Full Exhaust, APR Intercooler, APR FSI Fuel Pump and Carbonio cold air intake!


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: (Arin)*

about time








i think this kit has helped me decide to keep my car


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_Here is how the K04 kit stacks up against pottermans RSS equipped DSG GTI.
The k04 really spools up quickly and the power just lasts and last and lasts. The RSS looks like it has potential, but it take much longer to deliver the power and still is not topping the k04.









_Modified by Arin at 12:23 AM 3-17-2008_

The turbocharger, K04, included in our conversion is amazingly flexible for a fixed vane turbo!
Thanks for the overlay Arin. It's pretty impressive how this Ko4 walks all over that GT28RS at every point on the dyno!


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
The turbocharger, K04, included in our conversion is amazingly flexible for a fixed vane turbo!
Thanks for the overlay Arin. It's pretty impressive how this Ko4 walks all over that GT28RS at every point on the dyno!

mainly the difference of 100 lb-ft of torque at 3200rpms !!!!!!
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Our A3 is equipped with our S3/ED 30 Conversion, APR Full Exhaust, APR Intercooler, APR FSI Fuel Pump and Carbonio cold air intake!

I have the same supporting modifications on my GTI.
For clarification, the exhaust is the 'Stealth' version.


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
I have the same supporting modifications on my GTI.
For clarification, the exhaust is the 'Stealth' version.

and mine is 'Super-Stealth'


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: (prodigymb)*

Mike, Keith - do you guys feel the calibrations will work with a 3" catless downpipe into the stock exhaust comfortably? What about a 2.75" milltek turbo back system?


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_Mike, Keith - do you guys feel the calibrations will work with a 3" catless downpipe into the stock exhaust comfortably? What about a 2.75" milltek turbo back system?

We recommend a full exhaust and I would suggest that if you deviate from that recommendation you monitor your EGT's to ensure they are in line. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*

is a 2.75" full exhaust adequate in your opinion?


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_is a 2.75" full exhaust adequate in your opinion?

We've certainly determined that 3" is the way to go on the 2.0T. These engines being rather EGT sensitive, the full 3" system helps to reduce them some and allowws for a little more boost and power. Of course we have a safety margin built in and of course we are aware that some clients will have different exhaust configurations. However, my suggestion is to check your egt's regardless although I am pretty certain a 2.75 will be fine. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
We've certainly determined that 3" is the way to go on the 2.0T. These engines being rather EGT sensitive, the full 3" system helps to reduce them some and allowws for a little more boost and power. Of course we have a safety margin built in and of course we are aware that some clients will have different exhaust configurations. However, my suggestion is to check your egt's regardless although I am pretty certain a 2.75 will be fine. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

as you know i used to have your full 3" stealth setup but sold it because it was too loud - and now i am running the atp 3" downpipe into the stock exhaust - but would consider the milltek 2.75" resonated turbo back as a quiet alternative..


----------



## aeproberts21 (Apr 10, 2007)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (enginerd)*

I'm assuming this package includes software. If you already have APR software is there any break in the price?


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (aeproberts21)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aeproberts21* »_I'm assuming this package includes software. If you already have APR software is there any break in the price?

yes the price includes software - new customers get one program - existing software customers get a fully loaded ecu - no price break.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_
yes the price includes software - new customers get one program - existing software customers get a fully loaded ecu - no price break.

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## JeffreyTT (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Our A3 is equipped with our S3/ED 30 Conversion, APR Full Exhaust, APR Intercooler, APR FSI Fuel Pump and Carbonio cold air intake!

Keith,
So, are these dyno plots of your A3 with all the optional items (APR Intercooler and Carbonio) or are these plots of the base kit? Those optional items amount to another $1300, so it would be nice to know if you're including their benefits in these dyno plots. 
Since the ARP full exhaust is required (per your page), why isn't it bundled in the kit price?


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_
the plots i believe are from arin's 07 gti - which has all the supporting mods - 3" turbo back exhaust, carbino intake and a APR IC

Arin doesn't own an A3


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_
Keith,
So, are these dyno plots of your A3 with all the optional items (APR Intercooler and Carbonio) or are these plots of the base kit? Those optional items amount to another $1300, so it would be nice to know if you're including their benefits in these dyno plots. 
Since the ARP full exhaust is required (per your page), why isn't it bundled in the kit price?


Jeff,
yes, our intercooler and carbonio intake were fitted to our A3. Our engineers relay an upgraded intercooler will help with maintaining the power pull after pull but shouldn't affect the initial peak numbers when on the dyno without one.
We didn't bundle the exhaust as many people have other similar applications that should work fine or may already have our's installed.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Other than the items included in the kit, the only thing you should need is a downpipe IIRC.


----------



## mithong (Feb 24, 2007)

little confusion here... stage3 kit with the intercooler would be 7299..
this s3 conversion kit with the intercooler would be 6000..
why wouldn't someone just pay the extra 1200 to go stage 3???


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: (mithong)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mithong* »_little confusion here... stage3 kit with the intercooler would be 7299..
this s3 conversion kit with the intercooler would be 6000..
why wouldn't someone just pay the extra 1200 to go stage 3???

1. like he said front mount is not a must. 
2. 1300 doesnt lay around on the street
3. stg3 is not yet available to dsg owners
keith i think you guys should add a 3rd option to ur k04 page for the FMIC


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: (mithong)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mithong* »_little confusion here... stage3 kit with the intercooler would be 7299..
this s3 conversion kit with the intercooler would be 6000..
why wouldn't someone just pay the extra 1200 to go stage 3???

not everyone has ANOTHER $1200 laying around... 
also - i prefer the huge flat torque curve offered by the k04 - sure it doesn't make as much peak power as the stage 3 setup - but for my daily driving duties i'd rather the power (read - torque) where my engine spends most of its time.


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

not to mention k04 is uber stealthy


----------



## WetWagen (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_Here is how the K04 kit stacks up against pottermans RSS equipped DSG GTI.
The k04 really spools up quickly and the power just lasts and last and lasts. The RSS looks like it has potential, but it take much longer to deliver the power and still is not topping the k04.









_Modified by Arin at 12:23 AM 3-17-2008_


Why do the VF curves not cross at 5252 RPM? Since you made the overlay - are we sure those graphs are scaled properly?


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (WetWagen)*

Can someone else verify it?








http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...65902


_Modified by Arin at 1:18 PM 3-17-2008_


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

Looks as if the VF graphs don't cross at 5252, probably due to the smoothing that was applied.
Dave


----------



## HDClown (Oct 24, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
We've certainly determined that 3" is the way to go on the 2.0T. These engines being rather EGT sensitive, the full 3" system helps to reduce them some and allowws for a little more boost and power. Of course we have a safety margin built in and of course we are aware that some clients will have different exhaust configurations. However, my suggestion is to check your egt's regardless although I am pretty certain a 2.75 will be fine. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I hate to bring up other tuners in your thread, but I don't mean to do it maliciously. I prefer the sound of AWE's exhaust to APR's, and there's a LARGE price difference. But, I'd rather go with APR"s K04 kit instead of AWE's because I have local support for APR, and AWE would mean a 1 1/2 hour drive. 
Since AWE is tuning the same K04, and their tune seems to be slightly more agressive (more torque), yet they are using their 2.5" exhaust. Is there really going to be anything to worry about if I was not running a 3.0" exhaust with your K04 kit?


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: (Arin)*

does the AWE kit include a fuel pump and injectors? if not they must be running that thing lean and mean (fuel injectors maxed out perhaps?)


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_does the AWE kit include a fuel pump and injectors? if not they must be running that thing lean and mean (fuel injectors maxed out perhaps?)

They don't offer any yet but have hinted they will later.
About the graph... please refresh the page. I redrew the graphs from scratch so hopefully everything is correct. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (HDClown)*


_Quote, originally posted by *HDClown* »_
I hate to bring up other tuners in your thread, but I don't mean to do it maliciously. I prefer the sound of AWE's exhaust to APR's, and there's a LARGE price difference. But, I'd rather go with APR"s K04 kit instead of AWE's because I have local support for APR, and AWE would mean a 1 1/2 hour drive. 
Since AWE is tuning the same K04, and their tune seems to be slightly more agressive (more torque), yet they are using their 2.5" exhaust. Is there really going to be anything to worry about if I was not running a 3.0" exhaust with your K04 kit?

No problem at all. My suggestion would be to simply check your egt's via vag-com once you get it up and running. We have a safety margin built in but its applied to our 3" in system. I am mostly confident you won't have any issues with a 2.5" but we need to verify it with an egt log.


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*

keith - do you have a few minutes for me to call?


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
No problem at all. My suggestion would be to simply check your egt's via vag-com once you get it up and running. We have a safety margin built in but its applied to our 3" in system. I am mostly confident you won't have any issues with a 2.5" but we need to verify it with an egt log.

Keith, this may be a good question for mike or joel, but how closely did your the vag-com EGT's match up to the EGT probe you installed in my k04?
Just to make sure you were not lying about the probe I took off the engine cover, got a mirror, and looked behind the engine and found the plugged egt bunghole.

















_Modified by Arin at 1:54 PM 3-17-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_keith - do you have a few minutes for me to call?

Sure. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
Keith, this may be a good question for mike or joel, but how closely did your the vag-com EGT's match up to the EGT probe you installed in my k04?
Just to make sure you were not lying about the probe I took off the engine cover, got a mirror, and looked behind the engine and found the plugged egt bunghole.
















_Modified by Arin at 1:54 PM 3-17-2008_

this is a good question.


----------



## JeffreyTT (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Jeff,
yes, our intercooler and carbonio intake were fitted to our A3. Our engineers relay an upgraded intercooler will help with maintaining the power pull after pull but shouldn't affect the initial peak numbers when on the dyno without one.
We didn't bundle the exhaust as many people have other similar applications that should work fine or may already have our's installed.

Keith,
No disrespect, as I've always found APR to have great products, but I find it a bit disingenuous to be using dyno/performance plots to sell a $5K kit when the claimed performance comes from $2600 in additional parts ($1300 Exhaust and $1300 IC and Cabonio).
It's nice to see what's possible with all the add-ons if someone is willing to invest north of $7600, but for the $5000 kit you're advertising, you should be displaying the appropriate dyno plots.
Additionally, if you _must_ have the APR exhaust, then it should be included in the kits cost, along with a discounted option if the purchaser already has one i.e. just as you do for your HPFP.
Anyway, looks like a super kit, I just think you need to be honest with your potential customers.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
Keith, this may be a good question for mike or joel, but how closely did your the vag-com EGT's match up to the EGT probe you installed in my k04?
Just to make sure you were not lying about the probe I took off the engine cover, got a mirror, and looked behind the engine and found the plugged egt bunghole.
















_Modified by Arin at 1:54 PM 3-17-2008_

Every hardware configuration that deviates from the oem hardware seems to affect the egt model in the ecu from slightly to majorly.
On a Stage 2+, there is very little delta between the 2. On the Stage 3, which obviously has alot of hardware changes, the delta is rather large. I don't know for sure, but the ED 30 Conversion would be somewhere in between.


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Every hardware configuration that deviates from the oem hardware seems to affect the egt model in the ecu from slightly to majorly.
On a Stage 2+, there is very little delta between the 2. On the Stage 3, which obviously has alot of hardware changes, the delta is rather large. I don't know for sure, but the ED 30 Conversion would be somewhere in between.

is there some way for the calibrators to calibrate the egt model accordingly?


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_
is there some way for the calibrators to calibrate the egt model accordingly?

I'm sure there is some way.....but putting an egt probe is much less time consuming!


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I'm sure there is some way.....but putting an egt probe is much less time consuming!

but aren't there safety precautions built into the management system that rely on accurate egt model information to make decisions?


----------



## keith_r2 (Feb 7, 2002)

What is the key input to the mathmatical model that is built up?


----------



## BUK8TEE (Nov 1, 2002)

*Re: (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_
Keith,
No disrespect, as I've always found APR to have great products, but I find it a bit disingenuous to be using dyno/performance plots to sell a $5K kit when the claimed performance comes from $2600 in additional parts ($1300 Exhaust and $1300 IC and Cabonio).
It's nice to see what's possible with all the add-ons if someone is willing to invest north of $7600, but for the $5000 kit you're advertising, you should be displaying the appropriate dyno plots.
Additionally, if you _must_ have the APR exhaust, then it should be included in the kits cost, along with a discounted option if the purchaser already has one i.e. just as you do for your HPFP.
Anyway, looks like a super kit, I just think you need to be honest with your potential customers.


i agree with this guy 100% http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
still can't get over this $4k k04 turbo upgrade deal








sorry still seems more cost efficient to piece it 2gether if you ask me








love the #'s


----------



## HDClown (Oct 24, 2001)

I don't agree with posting a dyno plot that includes the IC addon and not indicating it, but the exhaust is not a big deal IMO. APR never bundles an exhaust with an upgrade kit, nor does any other tuner that I've ever seen. It's generally implied that you'll need an exhaust with any turbo upgrade kit.


----------



## BUK8TEE (Nov 1, 2002)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! ([email protected])*

for anywhere b/t $3795 - $4395
*i'd take these numbers anyday, and please remember there is no new injectors, new fuel pump or upgraded fuel pump software's on AWE's kit







* 
315 crank hp and 345 crank torque when using the stock airbox and intercooler system 
325 crank hp and 346 crank torque when the Audi S3 intercooler is added
335 crank hp and 357 crank torque when the Audi S3 intercooler and a cold air intake kit is added 
350 crank hp and 363 crank torque when the Audi S3 intercooler and a cold air intake kit on race fuel program 

*vs *
$4999 w/ apr hpfp or $4399 w/o 

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Stock Mode = OEM ECU Settings 
91 Octane Performance = 320hp and 320lb ft 
93 Octane Performance = 323hp and 335lb-ft 
100 Octane Performance = 355hp and 368lb-ft 
Valet Mode = Limits rpm to 4500 and MPH to 70


Disclaimer: APR's kit has APR IC ($1200); APR 3" Exhaust ($1200); carbonio cai ($300) and AWE has 2.5" exhaust ($1000; s3 fmic $550), evo cai ($200)
Simple math will show you that for the $4395 awe w/ s3 fmic + $2100 (s3 injectors, evoms cai, awe exhaust and autotech fuel pump) you'd blow the doors off of apr's fully invested kit!







i'm sure by a good bit of whp and wtq....but i'll let awe do the talking when they finish the k04 W/ fuel pump, injectors and post some dyno numbers








$6500 AWE k04 w/ s3 fmic, s3 injectors, autotech fuel pump, 2.5"-2.75" exhaust, cai (not necessary but wuteva for arguements sake!) 
VS.
$7400 APR K04 w/ APR 3", APR IC, APR HPFP 
****those APR dyno #'s require the above $2400+ upgrade**** where as awe's dyno #'s are spot on w/ the said mods minus fuel pump, etc.....so awe's dyno #'s match up very well for the price and would blow the doors off of APR if they added fuel pump, injectors. $hit they could probably sell it for $4999 like apr's kit and leave the other k04 kits in the dust http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif *****
this is all just so viewer's truly know their options... i wish every and all tuners would go toe to toe, mod for mod on the dyno to really make it fair to us consumers!








sure every tuner can post dyno numbers but to what point if the consumer doesn't really know all the intricate details that led to those numbers. simply slapping a dyno on a thread doesn't truly support what we all want in the world of car tuning. we want cold hard facts!!!


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

BUK8TEE: Without injectors or pump, I'd say that the AWE kit is running dangerously lean + the numbers are inflated -or- their numbers are very very inflated.
Dave


----------



## BUK8TEE (Nov 1, 2002)

*Re: (crew219)*

possible....doubt it....but it's possible








inflation is what make's big business in america profitable so in the end we're screwed no matter we chose, right? who tell's the truth anymore








just saying lb for lb i'd pay to see the two kits go head to head w/ the *same exact mods/bolt-ons* and also the same fuel octane...then and only then will many of us tuners be satisfied. i was never one for dyno queens, more of a purist and like to see things settled on the track whether it be a road-course or drag strip. that's all http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
you'd think spending over $5k on any kit would give us that type of option but..............................................


----------



## SDM (Aug 9, 2007)

Seriously considering doing this new K04 upgrade and was wondering how many of my existing mods can be re-used:
1. Forge DV
2. Dbilas intake (or any filter on a stick design)
3. Eurojets turbo discharge pipe and throttle pipe.
Out of interest was boost is being used?


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (BUK8TEE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BUK8TEE* »_possible....doubt it....but it's possible

EGT probe in my turbo confirmed that w/o injectors and a pump, putting out those numbers is pushing the turbo in to dangerous limits. The thermal efficiency on the k04 is total garbage... you need the extra fueling. AWE even stated in early k04 threads EGT's were getting very hot w/o extra fueling. Stasis obviously found the same and has put out much lower numbers w/o having a fuel pump. Also, lets point out that AWE crank HP numbers are derived from multiplying the wheel HP numbers by 1.15. The APR crank HP numbers were derived by multiplying the wheel HP numbers by 1.08 or 1.09 iirc.
Head to head with the same mods would depend on a few things. If its strict numbers, any tuner can just beat the living hell out of the turbo to get numbers. Keith, what did Joel put down the first time he strapped it on the dyno with pump gas? 350ft-lbs? If its getting the best numbers the safest way, it comes down to the best written software.


_Modified by Arin at 11:45 PM 3-17-2008_


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (SDM)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SDM* »_Seriously considering doing this new K04 upgrade and was wondering how many of my existing mods can be re-used:
1. Forge DV
2. Dbilas intake (or any filter on a stick design)
3. Eurojets turbo discharge pipe and throttle pipe.
Out of interest was boost is being used?

1. No, unless you buy the s3 version.
2. No, unless you install a recirculation bung on the intake.
3a. No, unless you cut part of the pipe (to the best of my knowledge.)
4a. Yes, if it has support for the noise pipe.
Boost, keith, you may want to chime in on that for the production kit numbers. I dont have the latest software yet.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: (Arin)*

I'll try to address some of the questions above.
First, there are several EGT models within Bosch Motoronic and literally hundreds of variables that can be traced back their calculation. To be quite honest it's very difficult to predict which of the models are correct as they can easily vary by more than 100 degrees C. We found one variable that seemed to always be 20 degrees C higher than three of our thermocoupled cars. However, I've recently found that that variable can be drastically affected by much more than just fuel, timing, and boost. I'm actually in England right now and I've been tuning a S3. That particular model was 80 C different between two of my calibrations despite power, fuel, timing, and boost being almost identical. So, long story short we'd simply rather install a thermocouple than play guessing games towards the reliability of our products.
I can guarantee I can get the same power out of this kit with or without an upgraded intercooler. The problem is, as Keith mentioned, it's not repeatable. IATs start to become very hot, so timing is pulled fuel is added and in extreme cases boost is pulled. So, although the car will remain safe regardless, from a long term performance standpoint the IC is a must.
An exhaust is a must, PERIOD. Although I would love for everyone to buy an APR exhaust, I understand people have their preferences. A 3" would be a better choice but it's not a necessity. I spent a lot of time calibrating compensations and feel confident this kit will remain safe regardless of its ability to breathe.
Arin is correct, I was originally making more torque, maybe 330 wtq. The problem was simple (and as usual disappointing). The map sensor was pegged for close to 1000rpm (at boost onset) and from our standpoint, that's not acceptable. The S3 K04 is capable of more than the MAP sensor specified (1550 mBar) but because so many models are based on that limit we've found running above that limit can cause bad things to happen. The main concern being an over boost code that will throw the car into limp mode. I'm not claiming other companies aren't achieving slightly more torque in a safe manor. But, the graphs posted earlier were the most I could get following the guidelines we like to go by.
I've mentioned in the past that K series turbos get hotter than Garrets due to less efficient turbine housings. To account for this increased temperature the obvious solution (without pulling load) is to add fuel. EGTs are our number one enemy and we all know the destruction high EGTs can lead to. To verify EGTs on the vehicles we calibrate we perform a simple yet brutal test. We set our dyno to hold the vehicle at its peak horespower rpm (so for this kit around 5,500), then we take the vehicle to this rpm (in 4th gear) and hold it at WOT until EGTs level out. This usually takes between 1 and 2 minutes. From our experience, the cars certainly do not get this hot on the road or the drag strip and only get close on a road course. Anyway, to run the A/F that was necessary for these conditions the S3 injectors did not leave much headroom and after tuning an addition 30 in England with the stock pump I simply could not make the same power until I added the APR pump. I provided Mike with some data to back these claims up which he should be posting shortly. So, can it be done without upgraded fueling? Sure! Is it safe, we'll leave that up to you!



_Modified by [email protected] at 4:49 AM 3-18-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 6, 2006)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_Without injectors or pump, I'd say that the AWE kit is running dangerously lean + the numbers are inflated

I'd say you were completely wrong. 
EGTs and other critical parameters were monitored closely on the dyno and street during the development of our kit and are well within Borg Warner’s specifications. Boost levels are also within the limits of the ECU, turbo and fuel system. 
In regards to the numbers, we have published detailed dyno data for multiple hardware setups, not just the best one. We've also provided baseline tests performed on the same development cars so the hp delta is clear and unquestionable. 
Until you have data to back up your analysis please refrain from making more unsupported and misleading claims. 
If anyone has any other questions or concerns about the A.W.E. kit please bring them up in the A.W.E. kit thread. 
Thanks, now back on topic...



_Modified by [email protected] at 5:19 AM 3-18-2008_


----------



## nico81 (Jul 6, 2007)

APR - For those of us who have the older KO4 + fuel pump on our A4's will there be an option for more power by adding injectors and intercooler?


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Chris, my comments were not meant to be a pissing match, so please do not take them as such if you have. I think its fairly important for everyone to understand why APR has chosen to add and require injectors and HPFP only to produce slightly higher numbers than you all while requiring an upgraded fuel pump and injectors. Since people have brought it up in this thread, addressing would really be on topic I believe.
Originally you stated this:

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_We've done ~ 300 whp safely with 103 oct, ~ 290 whp on 93 oct. Stock pump, stock injectors. During testing we've made over 300 whp on 93 octane but we feel the A/F becomes too lean, EGTs too high.


http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...83831
The term _too lean_ and _EGTs too high_ in this situation are contingent upon how the data was obtained (models or physical egt probes) and the testing stages (road pulls, elongated set rpm dyno runs, etc). After reading Joels (the calibrator of the k04 program) post
It's obvious APR has come to a different conclusion than AWE. This is why they have opted to require a fuel pump and injectors and still make similar numbers to those w/o any fuel upgrades at all.


----------



## Tommy1finger (Feb 2, 2007)

*Re: (BUK8TEE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BUK8TEE* »_ blah blah blah 


This thread is about APR's S3 turbo kit, not about what other tuners are doing. You might have some points but this is not the appropriate thread for you to express them. 




_Modified by Tommy1finger at 6:17 AM 3-18-2008_


----------



## JeffreyTT (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_I'll try to address some of the questions above.
I can guarantee I can get the same power out of this kit with or without an upgraded intercooler. The problem is, as Keith mentioned, it's not repeatable. IATs start to become very hot, so timing is pulled fuel is added and in extreme cases boost is pulled. So, although the car will remain safe regardless, from a long term performance standpoint the IC is a must.
An exhaust is a must, PERIOD. Although I would love for everyone to buy an APR exhaust, I understand people have their preferences. A 3" would be a better choice but it's not a necessity. I spent a lot of time calibrating compensations and feel confident this kit will remain safe regardless of its ability to breathe.


So again... For the quoted $5K price, a APR customer will get a one-hit-wonder that _may_ make the published power on the first go, but after that it's not repeatable and the power is going to be pulled back. To me, that says that the kit must be sold with a IC from the start, or the tune supplied as part of the marketed $5K kit needs to be less aggressive so as to give the customer repeatable and consistent power.
And confirming again, an exhaust is a _must_ but the costing is conveniently left out. If you follow your own pricing model that discounts for having a HPFP, then the kit should be $6300 (include pump and ARP exhaust), but then offer a discount for having those parts or compatible 3rd-party pieces.
You've basically confirmed my original claims. The APR kit is not $5K, but closer to $8K if a customer wants to match what APR is publishing as the performance for the kit, and specifically if the customer wants the claimed performance that is consistent and repeatable.
APR - Please don't be deceptive in marketing this kit. Publish dynos for the $5K Kit as your selling it, and not with the $2600 of apparently necessary add-ons. People may still be willing to spend $7600, just be honest that that's the real investment needed to consistently get the numbers you're claiming.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (BUK8TEE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BUK8TEE* »_for anywhere b/t $3795 - $4395
*i'd take these numbers anyday, and please remember there is no new injectors, new fuel pump or upgraded fuel pump software's on AWE's kit







* 
315 crank hp and 345 crank torque when using the stock airbox and intercooler system 
325 crank hp and 346 crank torque when the Audi S3 intercooler is added
335 crank hp and 357 crank torque when the Audi S3 intercooler and a cold air intake kit is added 
350 crank hp and 363 crank torque when the Audi S3 intercooler and a cold air intake kit on race fuel program 

*vs *
$4999 w/ apr hpfp or $4399 w/o 
Disclaimer: APR's kit has APR IC ($1200); APR 3" Exhaust ($1200); carbonio cai ($300) and AWE has 2.5" exhaust ($1000; s3 fmic $550), evo cai ($200)
Simple math will show you that for the $4395 awe w/ s3 fmic + $2100 (s3 injectors, evoms cai, awe exhaust and autotech fuel pump) you'd blow the doors off of apr's fully invested kit!







i'm sure by a good bit of whp and wtq....but i'll let awe do the talking when they finish the k04 W/ fuel pump, injectors and post some dyno numbers








$6500 AWE k04 w/ s3 fmic, s3 injectors, autotech fuel pump, 2.5"-2.75" exhaust, cai (not necessary but wuteva for arguements sake!) 
VS.
$7400 APR K04 w/ APR 3", APR IC, APR HPFP 
****those APR dyno #'s require the above $2400+ upgrade**** where as awe's dyno #'s are spot on w/ the said mods minus fuel pump, etc.....so awe's dyno #'s match up very well for the price and would blow the doors off of APR if they added fuel pump, injectors. $hit they could probably sell it for $4999 like apr's kit and leave the other k04 kits in the dust http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif *****
this is all just so viewer's truly know their options... i wish every and all tuners would go toe to toe, mod for mod on the dyno to really make it fair to us consumers!








sure every tuner can post dyno numbers but to what point if the consumer doesn't really know all the intricate details that led to those numbers. simply slapping a dyno on a thread doesn't truly support what we all want in the world of car tuning. we want cold hard facts!!!









I appreciate your comparison and the time you took write it all out.
However, you must realize AWE uses a 15% drivetrain loss to recalculate back to crank numbers. We use significantly less drivetrain loss to recalc our crank numbers.
For example, this is our wheel numbers converted to crank with a 15% drivetrain loss in comparion to AWE's numbers:
Both APR's Conversion and AWE's kit are advertising numbers with a Full Exhaust, Upgraded Intercooler and Intake.
APR's ED 30 Conversion includes a hpfp and S3 injectors whereas AWE's does not.
APR
91 oct = 338hp and 348trq
93 oct = 339hp and 363trq
100 oct = 373hp and 399trq
AWE
Pump gas = 335hp and 357trq
Race gas = 350hp and 363trq
The race gas numbers are where the APR ED 30 Conversion shows the biggest performance gain over AWE.
Also, with more fuel available the APR calibration is not nearly as aggressive as the AWE has to be and when we compare data logs of the 2 kits there won't be any speculation either way. Maybe they have a magic calibration that addresses the fueling issues and egt issues.








$6500 AWE k04 w/ s3 fmic, s3 injectors, autotech fuel pump, 2.5"-2.75" exhaust, cai 
VS.
$7400 APR K04 w/ APR 3", APR IC, APR HPFP 
This seems about right to me! As they say, you get what you pay for. There will always be cheaper alternatives to APR as you can't do it better, you can only do it cheaper and you have to sacrifice something along the way.
APR's ED 30 is all oem parts except for our complete FSI Fuel Pump Upgrade that includes a new pump, not just internals. The FSI Fuel Pump is run in, certified, assembled by professionals in a clean room environment and has full warranty. Cheap, reliable, fast, pick two!


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 30, 1999)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! ([email protected])*

Comment on the "you get what you pay for" dig:
Our kit has been extensively dyno and street tested for safety and longevity, as with all our turbo kits. Our reputation is sterling in this account.
External data logging was done, including EGT probes, pressure sensors, and wide band air fuel meters, in addition to on board scan tool data acquisition.

Comment on your drivetrain correction claims:
Our correction factor is 13%, not 15%. A 1.15 correction from wheel to crank equals a 13% loss from crank to wheels. We use that same factor for all FWD VWs.
Also, our wheel power numbers from ACTUAL dyno graphs are published on our site (not fabricated excel sheets). Go ahead and take a peak here:








Just for the record...
Good luck with your kit!


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! ([email protected])*

*it would be nice to see af plotted as well on the awe graphs*


_Modified by mwwVW at 1:07 PM 3-18-2008_


----------



## JeffreyTT (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Comment on the "you get what you pay for" dig:
Our kit has been extensively dyno and street tested for safety and longevity, as with all our turbo kits. Our reputation is sterling in this account.
External data logging was done, including EGT probes, pressure sensors, and wide band air fuel meters, in addition to on board scan tool data acquisition.

Comment on your drivetrain correction claims:
Our correction factor is 13%, not 15%. A 1.15 correction from wheel to crank equals a 13% loss from crank to wheels. We use that same factor for all FWD VWs.
Also, our wheel power numbers from ACTUAL dyno graphs are published on our site (not fabricated excel sheets). Go ahead and take a peak here:








Just for the record...
Good luck with your kit! 

Props to A.W.E. for also being honest enough to post dyno numbers for each way the kit is sold, and not based solely on the best case with all the add-on options.


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Cheap, reliable, fast, pick two!


exactly


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 30, 2007)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Also, our wheel power numbers from ACTUAL dyno graphs are published on our site (not fabricated excel sheets). 

There is NOTHING fabricated about the wheel dyno numbers shown for the APR kit. Our dyno allows you to save off a .txt or .csv file that we take into MS Excel to plot the wheel numbers. Nothing more, nothing less. Futhermore, ANY electronic image CAN be fabricated whether or not it says "Dyno Brand X" at the top of the image. 
I am just setting the record straight that the wheel numbers shown here were not falsified, fabricated, or altered in any way shape or form. The came directly from our dyno.


----------



## JeffreyTT (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
There is NOTHING fabricated about the wheel dyno numbers shown for the APR kit. Our dyno allows you to save off a .txt or .csv file that we take into MS Excel to plot the wheel numbers. Nothing more, nothing less. Futhermore, ANY electronic image CAN be fabricated whether or not it says "Dyno Brand X" at the top of the image. 
I am just setting the record straight that the wheel numbers shown here were not falsified, fabricated, or altered in any way shape or form. The came directly from our dyno. 

They are fabricated in the sense that they do not correctly reflect the actual hardware that's was installed at the time of the dyno.
The plots are not from your base $5K kit as is published on your site. They are of your kit with $2600 in additional performance parts.
The plots posted here say "APR S3-Turbo Upgrade w/ ARP FSI Fule Pump and S3 Injectors" and not "APR S3-Turbo Upgrade w/ ARP FSI Fule Pump, S3 Injectors, ARP Intercooler, Carbino Intake."
If you're willing to fudge that (be misleading), there is nothing to say what else is being done.


_Modified by JeffreyTT at 10:19 AM 3/18/2008_


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 4, 2007)

Even Stage 1 and 2 cars loose power after continous runs there's nothing magic about it. Do you have to have an APR intercooler? No. Will you make continous power longer with an APR intercooler? Of course. As I've mentioned already, the kit will make the exact same power with or without an intercooler. However, if you did 10 runs back to back the APR intercooled car would make more power on the 10th run than the Stock Intercooled car. This same statement is true for cars that only have software.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Comment on the "you get what you pay for" dig:
Our kit has been extensively dyno and street tested for safety and longevity, as with all our turbo kits. Our reputation is sterling in this account.
External data logging was done, including EGT probes, pressure sensors, and wide band air fuel meters, in addition to on board scan tool data acquisition.

Comment on your drivetrain correction claims:
Our correction factor is 13%, not 15%. A 1.15 correction from wheel to crank equals a 13% loss from crank to wheels. We use that same factor for all FWD VWs.
Also, our wheel power numbers from ACTUAL dyno graphs are published on our site (not fabricated excel sheets). Go ahead and take a peak here:

Just for the record...
Good luck with your kit! 

Sorry, your math was a little confusing but I did multiply our wheel numbers by 1.15 to compare apples to apples. The proper way to calculate a 13% drivetrain loss would be to divide the wheel numbers by .87. I called it a 15% drivetrain loss when I calculated by multiplying by your recommendation of 1.15.
Its great that you have all of that data. Would you like to share it? I have mine too!







Show me your's, I'll show you mine? I'm gonna show mine anyways though.


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! ([email protected])*

keith - talk about dropping your pants


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_
They are fabricated in the sense that they do not correctly reflect the actual hardware that's was installed at the time of the dyno.
The plots are not from your base $5K kit as is published on your site. They are of your kit with $2600 in additional performance parts.
The plots posted here say "APR S3-Turbo Upgrade w/ ARP FSI Fule Pump and S3 Injectors" and not "APR S3-Turbo Upgrade w/ ARP FSI Fule Pump, S3 Injectors, ARP Intercooler, Carbino Intake."
If you're willing to fudge that (be misleading), there is nothing to say what else is being done.

_Modified by JeffreyTT at 10:19 AM 3/18/2008_


Jeff,
I appreciate your concerns and can let you know that the majority of it stems from my postings. I was unaware that our A3 was fitted with the APR Intercooler during those dyno runs.
However, the explanations from the engineers are very sound and should help to satisfy your concerns. Its been explained that Intercooler's will help keep power longer. Our Carbonio Intake maintains the oem airbox.
When we get into splitting hairs to discredit our accomplishments people will sometimes point out anything to try and bring our products down a notch.
I understand you own the Stasis Power Kit which is somewhat comparable to our S3/ED 30 Conversion Kit only the power numbers are alot lower. It seems that you are trying to find a way to justify your choice as opposed to having an honest concern about the information we relase.
Looking at the Stasis website, there are hairs that can be split there as well. What octane fuel is that dyno produced with? Why don't they list it?, etc. but those don't change much in regards to the enjoyment you will recieve if you purchase the kit for your car.
The information you are concerned about is released on the forums in the same threads as our dyno plots are posted. The way I choose to present our data is my decision. If I was to have said, with only the S3/ED 30 Conversion Kit you will make this power you would have a valid argument. However, I am not hiding the information or refusing to answer or reply to any concerns or questions anyone has.
You are making a mountain out of a mole hill most certainly sir and my only retort at this point forward would be to meet one of our S3/ED 30 Conversion Packages at the track and we'll be able to settle this discussion once and for all. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kei[email protected]* »_
You are making a mountain out of a mole hill most certainly sir and my only retort at this point forward would be to meet one of our S3/ED 30 Conversion Packages at the track and we'll be able to settle this discussion once and for all. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

or see how things are holding together 40k miles from now.
i personally prefer apr's approach - i'd rather spend more and know my car is going to be running safely - for a long time - then spend less and deviate away from things such as the factory AF curve.


_Modified by mwwVW at 1:57 PM 3-18-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_
or see how things are holding together 40k miles from now.
i personally prefer apr's approach - i'd rather spend more and know my car is going to be running safely - for a long time - then spend less and deviate away from things such as the factory AF curve.

_Modified by mwwVW at 1:57 PM 3-18-2008_

And I would also like to point out that forums are more for detailed information and raw data postings whereas we always under-rate the performance of our products at the http://www.goapr.com website.
You won't find wheel hp and trq numbers on our website as we are concerned of different dyno's, different cars, different supporting mods, different ambients, etc. when our customers dyno and we want to be 100% certain they can alway reproduce our advertised numbers as found on our website.
I like to post the wheel numbers on the forums as this is where the majority of the technical clients reside and they typically have a greater understanding of what dyno plots mean. Also, the forums provide a great place for complete and total discussion of the product and offer alot of opportunity to release even more data than our website ever will.
I would beware of the tuners that don't post comprehensive information!


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Sorry, your math was a little confusing but I did multiply our wheel numbers by 1.15 to compare apples to apples. The proper way to calculate a 13% drivetrain loss would be to divide the wheel numbers by .87. I called it a 15% drivetrain loss when I calculated by multiplying by your recommendation of 1.15.


100/.87 = 114.94
100*1.15 = 115

Its the same thing when you are talking made up numbers* anyway.
*made up numbers does not in anyway mean someone is making up or lying about the dyno numbers, just simply referring to calculating back to crank from averaged/assumed drivetrain losses.



_Modified by [email protected] at 11:14 AM 3-18-2008_


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

arin why are u sleeping. overlay the awe graphs


----------



## JeffreyTT (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

Jeff,
I appreciate your concerns and can let you know that the majority of it stems from my postings. I was unaware that our A3 was fitted with the APR Intercooler during those dyno runs.
However, the explanations from the engineers are very sound and should help to satisfy your concerns. Its been explained that Intercooler's will help keep power longer. Our Carbonio Intake maintains the oem airbox.
When we get into splitting hairs to discredit our accomplishments people will sometimes point out anything to try and bring our products down a notch.
I understand you own the Stasis Power Kit which is somewhat comparable to our S3/ED 30 Conversion Kit only the power numbers are alot lower. It seems that you are trying to find a way to justify your choice as opposed to having an honest concern about the information we relase.
Looking at the Stasis website, there are hairs that can be split there as well. What octane fuel is that dyno produced with? Why don't they list it?, etc. but those don't change much in regards to the enjoyment you will recieve if you purchase the kit for your car.
The information you are concerned about is released on the forums in the same threads as our dyno plots are posted. The way I choose to present our data is my decision. If I was to have said, with only the S3/ED 30 Conversion Kit you will make this power you would have a valid argument. However, I am not hiding the information or refusing to answer or reply to any concerns or questions anyone has.
You are making a mountain out of a mole hill most certainly sir and my only retort at this point forward would be to meet one of our S3/ED 30 Conversion Packages at the track and we'll be able to settle this discussion once and for all. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Keith,
What gets posted here is one matter, but the other is how you are marketing the kit. Your apr page for the kit this dyno posted:








This is of course an even more excel enhanced (smoothing) of the plots you posted, but again, they are not from the Kit as you advertise it, but from the same A3 with all the extra parts. Correct? 
It's deceptive as in you're claiming it is from the base Kit, but by APR's own admission, all testing was done with the add-on parts.
This has nothing to do with my justifying anything about my purchase. I have a lot of respect for APR, so I don't like to see this slight-of-hand tactics when selling products. I knew, given the history here, that you'd try to deflect the discussion away from the point.
This has to do with APR not being honest about their kit. If you're not deceiving anyone, how about you modify the first post and the APR site, including some disclaimers that the dyno charts don't represent the actual kit, as they have $2600 in other "necessary per APR" pieces installed. How about posting dynos of the kit without those parts. Better yet, how about you post some back-to-back dyno runs of the base kit, as you are marketing it, and let all see how it performs.
If anything, by being honest, people can decide how far they want to go i.e. base kit, maybe I get one good run, add the IC, much better, etc. Nobody wants to invest $5K to then find out that they must invest another $2600 just to get to what you're already claiming.
And if you need a "my member is bigger than your" day at the track to help you feel better, then I'm all for it. Just make sure the car you show up with is as you sell it on your site i.e. no ARP IC, and no Carbino, no exhaust. Where do you want to run? Your still in-construction dirt track? Maybe we could meet at Infineon Raceway? All that boost/power from you kit running through a stock IC and intake should make for an interesting challenge!









_Modified by JeffreyTT at 11:52 AM 3/18/2008_


_Modified by JeffreyTT at 11:53 AM 3/18/2008_


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_Just make sure the car you show up with is as you sell it on your site i.e. no ARP IC, and no Carbino, no exhaust.


_Quote, originally posted by *APR* »_
*For best results*, APR highly recommends using this kit with our Carbonio MkV Intake and an APR Intercooler. *An APR Full Exhaust system is required for this upgrade.*


APR also *REQUIRES* a 2.0t engine, however they do not list it on the site. I see stasis does not require the engine either.


_Modified by Arin at 12:00 PM 3-18-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (JeffreyTT)*
















Truth:
1. all S3 K04 kits by reputable with similar components will make similar ultimate power with some slight variances in drivability, etc. Stripped down kits will make less, those with more stuff (fuel components for instance) will make power.
2. Stasis kit uses the standard S3 K04. Mahle involvement is bologna and is used for marketing.
3. Power claims vary from tuner to tuner. See point 1. Get over it. For valid comparisons (for the most part) compare within a tuners family of products.

We can go back and forth here but in the end these are the facts.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_
Keith,
What gets posted here is one matter, but the other is how you are marketing the kit. Your apr page for the kit this dyno posted:








This is of course an even more excel enhanced (smoothing) of the plots you posted, but again, they are not from the Kit as you advertise it, but from the same A3 with all the extra parts. Correct? 
It's deceptive as in you're claiming it is from the base Kit, but by APR's own admission, all testing was done with the add-on parts.
This has nothing to do with my justifying anything about my purchase. I have a lot of respect for APR, so I don't like to see this slight-of-hand tactics when selling products. I knew, given the history here, that you'd try to deflect the discussion away from the point.
This has to do with APR not being honest about their kit. If you're not deceiving anyone, how about you modify the first post and the APR site, including some disclaimers that the dyno charts don't represent the actual kit, as they have $2600 in other "necessary per APR" pieces installed. How about posting dynos of the kit without those parts. Better yet, how about you post some back-to-back dyno runs of the base kit, as you are marketing it, and let all see how it performs.
If anything, by being honest, people can decide how far they want to go i.e. base kit, maybe I get one good run, add the IC, much better, etc. Nobody wants to invest $5K to then find out that they must invest another $2600 just to get to what you're already claiming.
And if you need a "my member is bigger than your" day at the track to help you feel better, then I'm all for it. Just make sure the car you show up with is as you sell it on your site i.e. no ARP IC, and no Carbino, no exhaust. Where do you want to run? Your still in-construction dirt track? Maybe we could meet at Infineon Raceway? All that boost/power from you kit running through a stock IC and intake should make for an interesting challenge!









_Modified by JeffreyTT at 11:52 AM 3/18/2008_

_Modified by JeffreyTT at 11:53 AM 3/18/2008_

Jeff,
How are you missing the point so terribly?!?








Direct quote from the product page on our website:
"For best results, APR highly recommends using this kit with our Carbonio MkV Intake and an APR Intercooler. An APR Full Exhaust system is required for this upgrade."
Also, the crank numbers quoted at http://www.goapr.com are very conservative and greatly reduced in comparison to a 13% drivetrain calculation. That will more than make up for the use of our intercooler and Carbonio. Please disprove a situation before you call foul!
If someone buys our Conversion and can't hit the quoted http://www.goapr.com website numbers without the Carbonio and Intercooler, you have an argument. Until that happens, you have no logical argument as you have no data! The speculation on your behalf is poor at best.
If it helps you any, please know I personally assure you that you won't have any issues meeting our http://www.goapr.com quoted numbers for our S3/ED 30 kit without our Intercooler and Carbonio all things being apples to apples with your choice of dyno and other variables.










_Modified by [email protected] at 1:22 PM 3-18-2008_


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_
Just make sure the car you show up with is as you sell it on your site i.e. no ARP IC, and no Carbino, no exhaust. 


Strapping on a bigger turbo or even upping the boost significantly on the K03 without an exhaust is a pretty stupid idea to begin with. 
I'm quite sure that it is implied that whenever you change the turbo you should at least have a free-flowing downpipe. 
Dave


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
APR also *REQUIRES* a 2.0t engine, however they do not list it on the site. I see stasis does not require the engine either.

_Modified by Arin at 12:00 PM 3-18-2008_

LOL


----------



## Vdub'07 (Mar 6, 2007)

so this stuff wont work with my neuspeed set up? or i have to make a bung for the DV relocation?


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (enginerd)*

Gotta bung it up.
In the top left hand corner, next to the long tube and the turbo is the pipe that connects from the turbo to the factory air box. On it is a port or bung that is used for recirculating the diverted air. The recirculation tube plugs directly into it. In order to use the neuspeed intake you would need to install a bung for the recirculation.


----------



## Vdub'07 (Mar 6, 2007)

how difficult is that to do?


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 30, 1999)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
100/.87 = 114.94
100*1.15 = 115

Its the same thing when you are talking made up numbers* anyway.
*made up numbers does not in anyway mean someone is making up or lying about the dyno numbers, just simply referring to calculating back to crank from averaged/assumed drivetrain losses.
_Modified by [email protected] at 11:14 AM 3-18-2008_

Well, the correction factors we come up with aren't entirely random. In the past (as I'm sure you remember), we dynoed lots of stock cars and assumed that the factory advertised crank numbers were correct. We then multiplied the wheel power numbers by a correction factor that would equal engine power numbers. In the case of FWD VWs, it was 1.15. 
However, that same 1.15 factor put crank power near 230 when applying it to the 200 whp number we see on FWD 2.0T 6sp cars, so the factory crank numbers must not be as accurate as always claimed...
I do agree that talking crank numbers from a chassis dyno can be misleading without a frame of reference, but so can wheel power numbers themselves if they are arbitrarily compared to other chassis dynos.
The best way to compare apples to apples across dynos is to talk in whp % gains. Since we see 200whp stock on the car in question, we see a maximum gain of 51.5% over stock with our K04 kit in race mode (303whp/200whp).
It would be nice to know what APR has seen for whp on stock FWD 2.0T 6sp car. Then some cross comparisons can be made here...


----------



## Spax MC (Oct 26, 2006)

*Re: (Vdub'07)*

you gotta weld it in brother http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
some people never give up on all this bs








this is a quality kit, its priced very competitively; if you're going to buy it then buy it if not then don't...
if you want higher numbers then go stage 3 or atp kits....gosh










_Modified by Spax MC at 4:44 PM 3-18-2008_


----------



## JeffreyTT (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Jeff,
How are you missing the point so terribly?!?








Direct quote from the product page on our website:
"For best results, APR highly recommends using this kit with our Carbonio MkV Intake and an APR Intercooler. An APR Full Exhaust system is required for this upgrade."
_Modified by [email protected] at 1:22 PM 3-18-2008_

I get it, you are posting performance numbers on you sales page (and here) for a kit that come from a car that had $2600 in additional options. Yes, you make the mention on your site of "For best results..." but you do not state that the purported results you're claiming for the kit are only attainable from a car with those options already installed. You all seem to think it's possible, but it appears it's never been tested that way? 
It's misleading since it implies that $5K investment will net the published numbers, and not that the performance or consistency will be much more limited until the other $2600 is spent.
Step up, and do as A.W.E. is willing to do, and post legitimate dynos for the config as you're selling it. Not some questimate based on a more highly modified car.


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (JeffreyTT)*

awe's dyno plots have a full exhaust as well - i'm sorry but a IC and intake aren't going to made a world of difference on a single pull.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_
I get it, you are posting performance numbers on you sales page (and here) for a kit that come from a car that had $2600 in additional options. Yes, you make the mention on your site of "For best results..." but you do not state that the purported results you're claiming for the kit are only attainable from a car with those options already installed. You all seem to think it's possible, but it appears it's never been tested that way? 
It's misleading since it implies that $5K investment will net the published numbers, and not that the performance or consistency will be much more limited until the other $2600 is spent.
Step up, and do as A.W.E. is willing to do, and post legitimate dynos for the config as you're selling it. Not some questimate based on a more highly modified car.



Jeff,
I understand you feel you must find a way to discredit our accomplishments but this has been beat to death at this point. Thanks for your advice.


----------



## JeffreyTT (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Jeff,
I understand you feel you must find a way to discredit our accomplishments but this has been beat to death at this point. Thanks for your advice.









I'm in no way trying to discredit your accomplishments. As I said before, the kit looks great, and the numbers are impressive with the IC, intake, and Exhaust included. No one is going to be disappointed in it if they make the full investment.
All I'm pointing out is, that even as good as the kit is, it's troubling that you're posting numbers based on someone making the $7600 investment, not the $5K.
Is it a big deal to actually put those disclaimers on the site and/or include the performance dynos based on each of the available options? It reads from the other APR posts, that the kit has never been tested or developed with anything other than the optional parts installed. 
Is this a marketing issue, where the sticker shock of spending $7600 is going to turn people off? Some probably. But how is the guy who gets $5K together for your kit, only to find out that in order to get any consistency, he's got to find some more cash?
Oh well... I guess the APR of old doesn't exist anymore.


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (JeffreyTT)*

Keith, Jeff's whole argument sounds curiously ironic. Could you explain to me why?


----------



## BUK8TEE (Nov 1, 2002)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! ([email protected])*

great kit http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif can't wait till i blow the doors off of it








but seriously all we are asking for is clarification and facts starting from scratch. not after xyz have been added! ya know? 
i'm an apr fan as the level/quality of work are top notch, heck i've been to the annual bbq for how many years now (since '03), so my respect is there for the brand, it's just those that push the brand are







to say the least - reason i've personally stayed away!
it's like getting hit w/ a cheapshot from behind while your having a brew at the bar; it's just downright cowardly at least man up u know!!!!
btw APR...any local tuners in south florida have this kit on a shop car yet???? maybe after i see/feel this kit i'll undastand the mentality of those who push/sell this kit! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (BUK8TEE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BUK8TEE* »_great kit http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif can't wait till i blow the doors off of it








but seriously all we are asking for is clarification and facts starting from scratch. not after xyz have been added! ya know? 
i'm an apr fan as the level/quality of work are top notch, heck i've been to the annual bbq for how many years now (since '03), so my respect is there for the brand, it's just those that push the brand are







to say the least - reason i've personally stayed away!
it's like getting hit w/ a cheapshot from behind while your having a brew at the bar; it's just downright cowardly at least man up u know!!!!
btw APR...any local tuners in south florida have this kit on a shop car yet???? maybe after i see/feel this kit i'll undastand the mentality of those who push/sell this kit! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I am really trying to see it your way but you are telling me that since the wheel dyno's I posted didn't list the full mods on the graphs themselves but were talked about on the same thread, we are liars?
The wheel power made was with an upgraded intercooler, full exhaust and Carbonio intake outside of the kit. The website product information requires the full exhaust, recommends the Carbonio and Intercooler and quotes much lower crank numbers than the actual wheel we collected.








You guys are acting like there is 100hp and trq in the intercooler and Carbonio.
You can very easily accomplish the dyno numbers on our website without the Intercooler and Carbonio.


----------



## bcze1 (Feb 6, 2007)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_
I'm in no way trying to discredit your accomplishments. As I said before, the kit looks great, and the numbers are impressive with the IC, intake, and Exhaust included. No one is going to be disappointed in it if they make the full investment.


Why does only APR have to live by these rules? AWE doesn't include the price of an exhaust in their kit either? Were you in their thread too, trying to discredit them as well for such an egregious oversight?


----------



## lour32 (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (JeffreyTT)*

STOP the APR bashing


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (prodigymb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *prodigymb* »_arin why are u sleeping. overlay the awe graphs



















Red: APR 100 octane (k04 kit, TBE, IC, Carbonio, injectors, pump)
Blue: AWE 104 octane (k04 kit, TBE, IC, Intake)








Red: APR 93 octane (k04 kit, TBE, IC, Carbonio, injectors, pump)
Blue: AWE 93 octane (k04 kit, TBE, IC, Intake)
The 93 graph, which shows very similar numbers, is the reason why I question how hot the awe tune is running given that they have no fueling upgrades. If we see fuel cuts with less power and less g/s from the turbo with the k03, how can you possibly not be running either, very long injector on-time, very lean afr, very high egts or a combination of all three?


_Modified by Arin at 10:14 PM 3-18-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_










Red: APR 100 octane (k04 kit, TBE, IC, Carbonio, injectors, pump)
Blue: AWE 104 octane (k04 kit, TBE, IC, Intake)

What's with the lag on the AWE?
That's quite a bit of area under the curve on the hp.


_Modified by [email protected] at 3:52 PM 3-18-2008_


----------



## [email protected]vo USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (Arin)*

pssss there is problem with the cross over point again..








edit for spelling.


_Modified by [email protected] at 3:54 PM 3-18-2008_


----------



## JeffreyTT (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_awe's dyno plots have a full exhaust as well - i'm sorry but a IC and intake aren't going to made a world of difference on a single pull.

Yes, but the A.W.E dyno plots clearly state what's on the car they are testing, and they posted numbers for each of the options. APR doesn't. A.W.E is also posting a sheet directly from the dyno, not from a excel spreadsheet with unknown alterations.


----------



## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

gotta be no fuel...right? w/o an upgraded pump, I can't see how they can supply enough fuel to make the apr power lower in the rpm. looks similar to the GIAC 3" file...no?


----------



## iSot (Mar 6, 2008)

what's a big deal ?? If someone could not read it and dont understand that very simple rule that as always you change something you could change something more...to get the best result or better... If you know that with remap you could have with K04 kit about 300hp+ from the crank, so is it so difficult to make 1+1=? APR IC is not necessary...and if you going to make change like this for your car you always better replace your exhaust or simply your Down pipe... The good working result is not higher whp.... it is how smooth it is, how the engine turn the power on when you make "WOT'S" and how you feel it... 
If you already have some kind of solution for your car... be happy with it with lower power and lower torque







thats life...thats not the hole idea why/how you choose your products and why not just Choose revo or APR or something else.... Everybody have own dissisions...and always make sure that you know something about that what are you going to buy.....







and in the end... this is only hobby for us so lets not make so F**** big deal with few horses...


_Modified by iSot at 4:02 PM 3-18-2008_


----------



## nico81 (Jul 6, 2007)

Do I have to say something bad about this APR kit to get noticed here?
APR - For those of us who have the older KO4 + fuel pump on our A4's will there be an option for more power by adding injectors and intercooler?


----------



## forcefedvegas (Aug 10, 2007)

Funny how AWE puts out a kit and APR has a new kit that puts down huge numbers. Let the buyer beware. Personaly I think the APR software sprays way too much fuel at full throttle from the get go. Being at stage II I shouldnt have all this carbon and unburnt fuel all over my hatch and bumper. APR put out thier stage II+ software and then said you need to run our new 1500 dollar fuel pump for it to work properly without fuelcut issues. AWE uses a stock pump. Its all just a very expensive pissing contest that is going on here. Someone gets free stuff so he is a just a little biased. All in all we are talking about just a few hp but 3000 dollars in prce difference. I would think most of us would go for lower horses and let the track tell the tale. In my book its a no brainer I will go with AWE when I am ready.


_Modified by forcefedvegas at 4:39 AM 3-19-2008_


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: (forcefedvegas)*


_Quote, originally posted by *forcefedvegas* »_Funny how AWE puts out a kit and APR has a new kit that puts down huge numbers. Let the buyer beware. Personaly I think the APR software sprays way too much fuel at full throttle from the get go. Being at stage II I shouldnt have all this carbon and unburnt fuel all over my hatch and bumper. APR put out thier stage II+ software and then said you need to run our new 1500 dollar fuel pump for it to work properly without fuelcut issues. AWE uses a stock pump. Its all just a very expensive pissing contest that is going on here. Someone gets free stuff so he is a just a little biased. All in all we are talking about just a few hp but 3000 dollars in prce difference. I would think most of us would go for lower horses and let the track tell the tale. In my book its a no brainer I will go with AWE when I am ready.

_Modified by forcefedvegas at 4:39 AM 3-19-2008_

yes - awe runs on the stock pump and injectors - notice the lack of AF plot on their dynos? that thing HAS to be running far leaner then the stock AF curve.
i'm sorry - but i stand behind apr's decision to maintain a very rich curve - just like the oem tune - the oem did it for a reason - who says some tuner that knows how to make more power necessarily knows whats best for your engines longevity.
hell i could make the same amount of power with a big dry shot of nitrous...would it be safe for the life of the motor? 
you can't directly compare the awe kit to the apr kit - its like comparing apples to oranges... the apr kit includes a complete fueling solution - the awe kit does NOT


_Modified by mwwVW at 8:07 AM 3-19-2008_


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (forcefedvegas)*


_Quote, originally posted by *forcefedvegas* »_Funny how AWE puts out a kit and APR has a new kit that puts down huge numbers. Let the buyer beware.

APR made larger numbers than the numbers they have quoted in this thread, on my car, in 2007, before the AWE kit, or any official numbers from awe were ever released. Given that the turbo is an oem part from europe, and given the fact that everyone and their kid sister in the 1.8t world tuned and used the k04s in the past, it's no wonder they used it on the 2.0t. 

_Quote, originally posted by *forcefedvegas* »_Personaly I think the APR software sprays way too much fuel at full throttle from the get go.

I'm not so sure you understand why they do that. Spraying more fuel lowers exhaust gas temperatures. High exhaust gas temperatures can destroy the turbo! with the k03, with out a larger fuel pump, there are a few ways to run more boost w/o getting a fuel cut. You can push the injectors by increasing the time they are spraying, which eventually gets to a point that is bad for the injectors. You can simply not spray as much fuel, which means a higher air fuel ratio, which means hotter exhaust gas temperatures. Or you can increase the pump size, recalibrate, and delivery plenty of fuel while keeping a richer air fuel ratio with lower injector on times, resulting in lower exhaust gas temperatures.
As I stated above, given that at those power levels a chipped k03 setup with stock injectors and stock fuel pump would hit a fuel cut they must be doing something to get similar 93octane numbers to the apr kit which has larger injectors and fuel pump. They must either be simply running a leaner air fuel ratio, pushing the injector on times to the max or allowing way higher exhaust gas temperatures.
I think if people dont understand this, they will not understand why two different setups (one with fueling upgrades and one with out) can make similar figures on the dyno.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (Arin)*

I also want to point out, and I hope I'm not crossing any boundries by saying this, but I believe the original plan was to make the kit in stages.
K04 - stock injectors - stock pump
K04 - K04 injectors - stock pump
K04 - stock injectors - apr pump
K04 - K04 injectors - apr pump
Sort of a pick and choose your stages. I believe this is the path AWE has hinted they are taking.
This could still be done, and since I'm already running the larger injectors and pump, I never cared to ask , however I would absolutely expect to see some rather disappointing numbers compared to the full blown setup. The thermal efficiency of the small k04 just isn't all the great, so cranking up the boost on this system really requires more fueling to operate in a very safe manner. I'm doubting apr would be willing to deviate much from their normal policy on that.
One of the engine calibrators would be a good person to respond to that.


----------



## aussie audi guy (Jan 28, 2003)

*Re: (nico81)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nico81* »_Do I have to say something bad about this APR kit to get noticed here?
APR - For those of us who have the older KO4 + fuel pump on our A4's will there be an option for more power by adding injectors and intercooler?


Nico,
I'm currently working with Joel from APR here in the UK & today we have been doing the calibrating on the A4 on the dyno.
The A4 with the K04 does not get any gains from injectors, the pump supplies what is needed and the injectors cope well.
An intercooler will always help, so that probably your next step after the fuel pump


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 30, 1999)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
The 93 graph, which shows very similar numbers, is the reason why I question how hot the awe tune is running given that they have no fueling upgrades. If we see fuel cuts with less power and less g/s from the turbo with the k03, how can you possibly not be running either, very long injector on-time, very lean afr, very high egts or a combination of all three?

_Modified by Arin at 10:14 PM 3-18-2008_

This is my last post in this thread, as I am growing weary of the insinuations and veiled insults.
We are not newcomers to the world of turbos kits. We have been in business for 17 years, and have numerous in house developed turbo kits and other products.
There is absolutely no track record of us ever releasing dangerously lean, high EGT, overboosting unreliable turbo kits, and just because someone wants to insist that this kit *must* fall into that category does not suddenly make it so.
We have an in house dyno. We have multiple ways of gathering data, including external EGT loggers, wide band air/fuel meters, intake air pressure sensors, etc. The reason it took us so long to release this kit was because of the extensive testing and development we were doing, as with all our kits. 
The last thing we want to do, as always, is release a product to tarnish our reputation. Why would we suddenly reverse direction and become as foolish as you and other posters in this thread are accusing?
Notice that I never once made a cutting or negative comment about APR in this thread, yet the opposite cannot be said. The only reason we stepped into this thread was because of blatantly false statements being made by APR clients and APR employees about us.
I don't have the desire to sink any lower here. 
The market will ultimately vote with their money, and we'll keep providing transparent data with a positive attitude.
Have a great day.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: (Arin)*

That's correct Arin. We had originally discussed doing the kit in stages. Stock fueling, S3 injectors, and finally S3 injectors and APR pump would've been the plan.
When I started tuning Arin's car I started with the complete setup so that I could get an idea of the ultimate power output and the headroom left in the fueling system. I was honestly surprised to find out the injector pulse width (or on time) even at the 130bar supplied pressure was at the upper end of its limit. Anyone with Vag-com can easily verify this for themselves when they get the kit. So, the kit is making aproximately 300whp with the extra fueling and considering some K03 cars have seen 270whp we didn't feel that staging the kit was a reasonable option.
Regardless of other's opinions we feel the extra fueling is necessary and quite frankly a must to run the air/fuel we're running. It's already been proven to safely max out the stock K03, extra fueling is necessary. Other companies besides APR are offering fuel pump software now. So, how can you safely make 30whp more than Stage 2 (which requires a pump) without extra fueling


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Todd, I'm not insulting you in any way, and I'm sorry if my posts have come of that way. You can chalk it up to pure ignorance on my part as I do not understand how it's possible to run a larger turbo, which is flowing more air, producing more power, using the same fueling as the k03 setup given that that fueling setup on the k03 is already at a limit. This is not a jab at AWE at all. You are clearly doing something that I do not understand and clarification would be excellent.


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
This is my last post in this thread, as I am growing weary of the insinuations and veiled insults.
We are not newcomers to the world of turbos kits. We have been in business for 17 years, and have numerous in house developed turbo kits and other products.
There is absolutely no track record of us ever releasing dangerously lean, high EGT, overboosting unreliable turbo kits, and just because someone wants to insist that this kit *must* fall into that category does not suddenly make it so.
We have an in house dyno. We have multiple ways of gathering data, including external EGT loggers, wide band air/fuel meters, intake air pressure sensors, etc. The reason it took us so long to release this kit was because of the extensive testing and development we were doing, as with all our kits. 
The last thing we want to do, as always, is release a product to tarnish our reputation. Why would we suddenly reverse direction and become as foolish as you and other posters in this thread are accusing?
Notice that I never once made a cutting or negative comment about APR in this thread, yet the opposite cannot be said. The only reason we stepped into this thread was because of blatantly false statements being made by APR clients and APR employees about us.
I don't have the desire to sink any lower here. 
The market will ultimately vote with their money, and we'll keep providing transparent data with a positive attitude.
Have a great day.

*so share some data to prove that the kit isn't running lean and or at high egts and everyone will be happy http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif *


_Modified by mwwVW at 11:41 AM 3-19-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (nico81)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nico81* »_Do I have to say something bad about this APR kit to get noticed here?
APR - For those of us who have the older KO4 + fuel pump on our A4's will there be an option for more power by adding injectors and intercooler?


Sorry man! No, I just don't get as fired up, lol.
Not at this time. The S3/ED 30 Converion is not made for the A4. We haven't develped an intercooler at this point either. Our A4 development is geared towards something bigger at this time.


_Modified by [email protected] at 7:36 AM 3-19-2008_


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Sorry man! No, I just don't get as fired up, lol.
Not at this time. The S3/ED 30 Converion is not made for the A4. We haven't develped and intercooler at this point either. Our A4 development is geared towards something bigger at this time.

twins for the s4?


----------



## rastta (Feb 22, 1999)

*Re: (mwwVW)*

Let's keep this discussion focused on APR's kit. If you have questions about AWE's kit - please start another thread. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Let's keep this discussion focused on APR's kit. If you have questions about AWE's kit - please start another thread. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Joe,
I would have no issue with a comparison between our kit and AWE's kit to continue on this thread.
It would be really nice for AWE to post some of the data they have been referencing but not willing to produce.
I think at this point that would give us a much better resolution to the questions in this thread as opposed to keeping the topic limited to only our kit.


----------



## rastta (Feb 22, 1999)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Joe,
I would have no issue with a comparison between our kit and AWE's kit to continue on this thread.
It would be really nice for AWE to post some of the data they have been referencing but not willing to produce.
I think at this point that would give us a much better resolution to the questions in this thread as opposed to keeping the topic limited to only our kit.

As long as *both *parties are willing to participate - that's fine. Let's just not let this get out of hand.


----------



## JeffreyTT (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
As long as *both *parties are willing to participate - that's fine. Let's just not let this get out of hand.









APR won't even post the real dyno plots for the kit, just their excel-enhanced ones with all the add-on parts, so how exactly can there be a fair comparison with A.W.E?


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_
APR won't even post the real dyno plots for the kit, just their excel-enhanced ones with all the add-on parts, so how exactly can there be a fair comparison with A.W.E?

seriously - what difference does it make it they plot a print screen from the dyno - or export the data into excel and plot the lines.... awe could just as easily edit the "real dyno plots" with paint


----------



## JeffreyTT (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_
seriously - what difference does it make it they plot a print screen from the dyno - or export the data into excel and plot the lines.... awe could just as easily edit the "real dyno plots" with paint









How funny... It's very easy to edit numbers in excel and plot whatever you feel. If APR is so confident in their work, post the real sheets. If they match, there is no further argument. And let's see a real plot of the kit without the add-ones.


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_
How funny... It's very easy to edit numbers in excel and plot whatever you feel. If APR is so confident in their work, post the real sheets. If they match, there is no further argument. And let's see a real plot of the kit without the add-ones.


ok - while we wait for that we will continue waiting for awe to post egt and AF information - which is far more important to me then a few HP one way or another.


----------



## JeffreyTT (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_
ok - while we wait for that we will continue waiting for awe to post egt and AF information - which is far more important to me then a few HP one way or another.

I haven't seen APR post that yet.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_
How funny... It's very easy to edit numbers in excel and plot whatever you feel. If APR is so confident in their work, post the real sheets. If they match, there is no further argument. And let's see a real plot of the kit without the add-ones.

Last time I checked, APR's dynos represent what their customers would see on their own setups quite accurately.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...83305
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3732431
On another note, where are dyno charts of your setup? Do they match up with Stasis' claims?
BTW, look at the "sheets" stasis provides. 
http://www.stasisengineering.com/turbo/index.aspx
The latter mustang dyno sheet is hardly the dyno data in its rawest form.
Dave


_Modified by crew219 at 9:36 AM 3-19-2008_


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_
I haven't seen APR post that yet.

none of us are WORRIED about APR running too lean or hot - APR includes a fuel pump and larger injectors that allow them to run a richer AF curve.


_Modified by mwwVW at 12:39 PM 3-19-2008_


----------



## JeffreyTT (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_
none of us are WORRIED about APR running too lean or hot - APR includes a fuel pump and larger injectors that allow them to run a richer AF curve.

_Modified by mwwVW at 12:39 PM 3-19-2008_

That's funny... You believe that just because they can... they did it right.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_
How funny... It's very easy to edit numbers in excel and plot whatever you feel. If APR is so confident in their work, post the real sheets. If they match, there is no further argument. And let's see a real plot of the kit without the add-ones.


Jeff,
You are attacking us like we release power info that noone can make. We've have never ever done that to date in our 11 year history. If we were some fly by night tuner with a poor reputation you could argue that we are attempting to mislead people with our data since we have done it in the past.
However, that is not the case. The way we present our data is up to us and as I've said before, if in the real world someone is not able to match it, then we have a problem.
You have no basis for attacking our credibility or our integrity but for some reason you really seem to want to. And the worst part about it is that you have no evidence or data with which to do so.


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_
That's funny... You believe that just because they can... they did it right.

why is that funny? i run apr software in my car now and have verified with my own two eyes that the car follows a nice rich AF curve - as have others.... why would they deviate from this when running a K04? if they were to deviate from said AF curve they would leave out the fuel pump and injectors...like AWE....


----------



## JeffreyTT (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Jeff,
You are attacking us like we release power info that noone can make. We've have never ever done that to date in our 11 year history. If we were some fly by night tuner with a poor reputation you could argue that we are attempting to mislead people with our data since we have done it in the past.
However, that is not the case. The way we present our data is up to us and as I've said before, if in the real world someone is not able to match it, then we have a problem.
You have no basis for attacking our credibility or our integrity but for some reason you really seem to want to. And the worst part about it is that you have no evidence or data with which to do so.

Keith,
My issue from the start is that the "data as you present it..." is not of the kit your are selling. If those plots on page one of this post said "w/ APR IC, Carbino, and APR Exhaust", then there would be nothing to say. The plots then reflect a different configuration of the kit. If you actually supplied dynos of the kit without the optional parts, there would be nothing to say. If your plot on the APR page said they are estimates based on a car with other options, there would be nothing to say.
The fact that you're not willing to clarify any of this, especially those plots, seems suspicious and misleading. What, it would take you 10 minutes to repost those with the correct information. Does a real dyno exist of this kit without the optional items?
If you have no issues and are proud of the data, including showing what gains there are by adding the optional items, then showcase them. You guys were very proud of your IC, and I remember plots showing the significant difference between it and the stock IC, so why is that data not being supplied for this kit?
Anyway, I'm sorry you're taking this as trying to discredit your work. Given the grief you've constantly leveled at other tuners, including baseless accusations, and asking them to put up or shut up, I think it only fair that you be held to the same standard.


----------



## JeffreyTT (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_
why is that funny? i run apr software in my car now and have verified with my own two eyes that the car follows a nice rich AF curve - as have others.... why would they deviate from this when running a K04? if they were to deviate from said AF curve they would leave out the fuel pump and injectors...like AWE.... 

Super, then APR has no reason not to post that information alongside A.W.E.


----------



## brandon0221 (Mar 7, 2007)

*Re: (JeffreyTT)*

Straight nonsense all this basically is...Jeffery this a thread about APR's S3 conversion turbo kit not about anyone else. If you don't like their kit then don't comment just mind your business and run that almighty stasis kit







. Your nonsense is not welcome here. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_
That's funny... You believe that just because they can... they did it right.


where is your dyno? 
where are your logs?
when will you stop bitching?


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

It's like Microsoft, the only way to compete with the big boys is to try to take them down it seems.
Trashing apr's offerings doesn't help anyones case...just makes them look like a bunch of tools.
PLEASE post the information required to back up claims and let the HARD DATA speak for itself. Only then can anyone make a fair and objective comparison.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_It's very easy to edit numbers in excel and plot whatever you feel.

In your opinion, are APR 'forum only' excel driven graphs less creditable than adobe illustrator graphs provide VW?








What makes a dyno graph creditable? To what length would one need to go in order to make it creditable in your opinion? Do you feel the Stasis website adobe illustrator graph is creditable? If so, why?


----------



## JeffreyTT (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
In your opinion, are APR 'forum only' excel driven graphs less creditable than adobe illustrator graphs provide VW?








What makes a dyno graph creditable? To what length would one need to go in order to make it creditable in your opinion? Do you feel the Stasis website adobe illustrator graph is creditable? If so, why?

This has nothing to do with the numbers or the quality of the APR kit. It has to do with their plots being misleading in that their first post is claiming power levels for their base kit, yet everything displayed has been derived from a car with additional parts.
I'm not claiming the kit is bad, I'm not claiming that APR is a bad company, I'm saying that they are misrepresenting the power levels of their $5K kit by displaying plots from a now admittedly different setup.
This has nothing to do with APR vs <insert tuner here>, or any attempt to say my kit is better. I know my kit doesn't make the same power and that's a given as I'm not running a HPFP. With the same upgrades, all the K04 kits are going to be comparable. There is no debate about this. None.
The issue at hand it that APRs graphs are misleading, nothing more.




_Modified by JeffreyTT at 11:52 AM 3/19/2008_


----------



## JeffreyTT (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: (brandon0221)*


_Quote, originally posted by *brandon0221* »_Straight nonsense all this basically is...Jeffery this a thread about APR's S3 conversion turbo kit not about anyone else. If you don't like their kit then don't comment just mind your business and run that almighty stasis kit







. Your nonsense is not welcome here. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I'm only talking about the APR kit. If you look back, I've said nothing about my setup. It's not about that.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_The issue at hand it that APRs graphs are misleading, nothing more.

Jeff, I'm still not seeing how they are misleading. The only device that could add any real large power gains to the equation is the exhaust, however the website clearly states a full turbo back exhaust is required for the APR K04 kit. They clearly state 'FOR BEST RESULTS' add an IC and the carbonio intake, which is a really nice marketing pitch on their side since they sell the parts.
For best results.... 
Add an intercooler so you dont get heatsoaked after running the car hard for a while.
Add the carbonio intake, which for the MKV is basically just a filter that is better than stock. How many threads have we seen where people say it does nothing and now it's a hot topic?
Honestly if you took a cold car with the stock intercooler and set it onto APR's stationary dyno and then did the same with the APR IC, do you honestly believe after one run the numbers would show any significant variance? Do you realize they put down higher numbers then the one's they have posted but have put down low end numbers so everyone can hit them?
Lastly, I only bring up stasis because you run it and it's another option, can you provide solid reliable information that confirms the graph on their site was created on a bone stock car that has no modifications to the engine at all, meaning STOCK exhaust system, STOCK OEM paper filter, stock spark plugs, stock stock stock etc?


----------



## YoungMedic (Mar 22, 2006)

*Re: (Arin)*

ive never seen so much dyno war-ing in my life.








dyno this, dyno that... take it to the street.. or the track.. sheesh. i know what my next plate is going to say.



_Modified by [email protected] at 12:59 PM 3-19-2008_


----------



## Spax MC (Oct 26, 2006)

*Re: (Arin)*

x2
countless threads on how carbonio does nothing except look good and an ic prevents heat soke







and now all this debating


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_

The issue at hand it that APRs graphs are misleading, nothing more.

_Modified by JeffreyTT at 11:52 AM 3/19/2008_

Excellent and since the graphs have been explained several times at this point I assume you are satisfied and can quit beating this horse. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Excellent and since the graphs have been explained several times at this point I assume you are satisfied and can quit beating this horse. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (prodigymb)*

Arin can you over lay the actual vs. requeted dyno plots...just playin


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Arin can you over lay the actual vs. requeted dyno plots...just playin








lol


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_

a dyno is a dyno who cares if they make it look pretty


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

lol!

I actually have a nice template laid out in photoshop with each dyno plot original, hp, tq, and labels all in their own folders all as separate layers. At this point, adding a new one is really simple.  I would have done it in illustrator and used the pen tool to make the lines nicer but zooming in with a steady hand is good enough


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (Arin)*


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Ooooowwwww! I seee changes






















I gotta make a trip down to load this up soon. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*

looks like AF is in the mid 10s?


----------



## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

I'm starting to get really jealous.
F$#% 2006


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_looks like AF is in the mid 10s?

Yes sir! As always, we prescribe to the OEM determined fueling strategies as our research concurs with that of the VAG engineers.


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_I'm starting to get really jealous.
F$#% 2006









code for 2006 MY is coming - don't worry.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_code for 2006 MY is coming - don't worry.

http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: (mwwVW)*

On this run the A/F was near mid 10s, yes. Now, let me discuss this run. Fueling is typically (and should be) mapped according to what A/F the driver desires and also what A/F is necessary to maintain safe EGTs. Obviously the driver desires lean best torque some where near 12.7:1 A/F. Unfortunately, this is quite unrealistic on a highly boosted car due to excessive temperatures. So, you'll notice while logging A/F the ratio will continue to get lower the longer you push your car (there is however a minium ratio set in place by the tuner). This particular run is a hot run where the vehicle is running an A/F that is lower than driver desired yet the horespower is still there. On cooler runs where the car was able to achieve a slghtly leaner mixture the power was obviously slightly higher. 
To sum things up, there are multiple protections built in the software to prevent excessive EGTs. As you can see above, the fueling kit is completely neccessary to run that A/F. Also, to clarify one point, there is not and cannot be a large delta between driver desired fueling and EGT protection fueling because it would be physically noticeable when the maps switched. So, although mid to high 10s is what you'll see in a hot circumstance low 11s could be expected on a cooler run.
I feel like I'm rambling now, so I hope this somehow helps










_Modified by [email protected] at 2:57 PM 3-19-2008_


----------



## magilson (Apr 18, 2005)

*Re: (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_The issue at hand it that APRs graphs are misleading, nothing more.

Whilst doing some casual reading of the Mustang Dyno Software I found it interesting that they explain explicitly that their dyno puts out crank torque numbers. Wouldn't you call it misleading for AWE to say that you must multiply their results by 1.15 to get crank torque when that's exactly what the dyno gives them? Certainly a bit more suspicious than directly outputing data to excel...
Unless of course they take the crank torque number the dyno provides and then correct it to wheel torque and then expect you to convert it back again...


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*

joel - your technical explanations and expertise are always appreciated...


_Modified by mwwVW at 8:42 AM 3-20-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 6, 2006)

*Re: (magilson)*


_Quote, originally posted by *magilson* »_
Unless of course they take the crank torque number the dyno provides and then correct it to wheel torque and then expect you to convert it back again...








You can't be serious.
Mustang dynos output whp.


----------



## JeffreyTT (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Keith,
Thanks for posting the revised plots with the additional information as to what was on the car tested. It makes the graphs less ambiguous, especially if they were out of the context of this thread. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Next question.
Do you have any plots showing multiple runs of the fully equipped car vs multiple runs without the APR IC? Similar to the data you posted when you released the APR FMIC? It would be nice to see how the FMIC helps with recoverability or repeatability of the power delivery, especially considering the amount of power this kit is making.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_







You can't be serious.
Mustang dynos output whp.


I've been curious about this for a while now too. Looking at the mustang dyno technical documents, it seems it can put out wheel numbers, but also puts out crank.
http://www.mustangdyne.com/pdf...8.pdf
On page 28 I see this:

_Quote, originally posted by *MustangDynoGuide* »_
*The most significant item the user of this screen should be aware of is:* when viewing data that is by-MPH, the
reported torque values are in terms of dynamometer roll-shaft torque, but *when viewing data that is by-RPM, the
reported torque values are in terms of engine-crankshaft torque.* See the section on Dynamometer Concepts for
more information on this important difference.


AWE dyno graphs say engine torque and engine horsepower. Could you clarify this for me?


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_Keith,
Thanks for posting the revised plots with the additional information as to what was on the car tested. It makes the graphs less ambiguous, especially if they were out of the context of this thread. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Next question.
Do you have any plots showing multiple runs of the fully equipped car vs multiple runs without the APR IC? Similar to the data you posted when you released the APR FMIC? It would be nice to see how the FMIC helps with recoverability or repeatability of the power delivery, especially considering the amount of power this kit is making.

Why don't you search for the APR IC release thread?
Dave


----------



## JeffreyTT (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
Why don't you search for the APR IC release thread?
Dave

Have that, but it was based on a Stage II setup, and not the power levels this kit is making.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_
Have that, but it was based on a Stage II setup, and not the power levels this kit is making. 

it would follow very similar patterns becuase the intercooler is good for about 600hp worth of flow


----------



## rastta (Feb 22, 1999)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
I've been curious about this for a while now too. Looking at the mustang dyno technical documents, it seems it can put out wheel numbers, but also puts out crank.
http://www.mustangdyne.com/pdf...8.pdf
On page 28 I see this:
AWE dyno graphs say engine torque and engine horsepower. Could you clarify this for me? 

First of all - This thread isn't about AWE's dyno.
Second of all - the PDF you posted is NOT the same Dyno that AWE has. They have a Mustang AWD-500-SE 4WD chassis dyno.


----------



## crew219 (Oct 18, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
First of all - This thread isn't about AWE's dyno.
Second of all - the PDF you posted is NOT the same Dyno that AWE has. They have a Mustang AWD-500-SE 4WD chassis dyno. 

The MD-7000 is the software / computer that the dyno outputs to. Used for all the mustang dynos.
Dave


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
First of all - This thread isn't about AWE's dyno.
Second of all - the PDF you posted is NOT the same Dyno that AWE has. They have a Mustang AWD-500-SE 4WD chassis dyno. 



http://www.mustangdyne.com/man...l.pdf

_Quote, originally posted by *page 17* »_The host computer system houses the analog/digital conversion boards along with the MD-7000 software package.

Joe, I believe its the same line of software. Also since this discussion has lead to comparing competing products, I think it's appropriate to have as much information as possible. I understand this may cause a bit chaos however that aside, the knowledge can be valuable for everyone and this is the only way most, including myself, will ever learn. Not only that, competition derives pricing and demand for better products. With out competition, where would be be today?


----------



## BUK8TEE (Nov 1, 2002)

*Re: (crew219)*

bunch of know-it-alls in this world. gonna have to call up eurotuner to do a huge issue on all available turbo upgrade kits for the 2.0t and do a shootout.....oh hope's a certain company shows up this time around








.
.
.
but seriously anyone can get in touch w/ eurotuner to do an issue just running all the kits against each other in the same environment???? whether it's the big tuners or customer cars they've personally put their hands on, etc.
APR, REVO/KMD, REVO/ATP, GIAC/VF, AWE, and whoever else has any upgraded turbo kit on the market. 

i.e.
gt28rs kits vs gt28rs kits
gt2871r kits vs gt2871r kits
gt3071r kits vs gt3071r kits
k04 kits vs k04 kits
i'm sure that'd be there highest selling issue to date http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif, heck they could even setup it up for waterfest or something like that since they'll all be in attendance and a racetrack is NEAR by!!! i'd definitely invest in making a trip anywhere to see such a competition!
from the famous fingers of keith: "Put up or shup up!"








all information in this post is copyrighted(c) hhahahhaa


_Modified by BUK8TEE at 7:48 PM 3-19-2008_


----------



## rastta (Feb 22, 1999)

*Re: (crew219)*


_Quote, originally posted by *crew219* »_
The MD-7000 is the software / computer that the dyno outputs to. Used for all the mustang dynos.
Dave

Ooops - I just noticed the first numbers listed and didn't read the "software" part.


----------



## rastta (Feb 22, 1999)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
http://www.mustangdyne.com/man...l.pdf
Joe, I believe its the same line of software. Also since this discussion has lead to comparing competing products, I think it's appropriate to have as much information as possible. I understand this may cause a bit chaos however that aside, the knowledge can be valuable for everyone and this is the only way most, including myself, will ever learn. Not only that, competition derives pricing and demand for better products. With out competition, where would be be today?

My mistake on the software..........
HOWEVER - I'm familiar with Mustang Dyno's - my Project TT has been dyno'd on them and I can verify without any doubt that the numbers reported on Mustang Dyno's are wheel hp and torque numbers - either that or I have a TT which only puts out 190 crank hp - which I know for a fact it doesn't.
Quite frankly, i'm tired of all these dyno "pissing contests". I've been around dyno's for more years than most of you have owned cars. Dyno's are not the end all or be all and can be manipulated in MANY ways. Take the results with a grain of salt and be done with it. 
Oh and for the last time - this thread isn't about AWE's dyno.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (BUK8TEE)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BUK8TEE* »_bunch of know-it-alls in this world. gonna have to call up eurotuner to do a huge issue on all available turbo upgrade kits for the 2.0t and do a shootout..

The basis for most of the compare/contrast of these kits does not lie in performance. Anyone can put out a kit that can blow off competitors doors, however that's not what we are debating. We are debating the calibration/kit to the health of the engine, turbo, injectors etc... This is not something that would be obvious by a single dyno war, track war, quarter mile war, etc...


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
My mistake on the software..........
HOWEVER - I'm familiar with Mustang Dyno's - my Project TT has been dyno'd on them and I can verify without any doubt that the numbers reported on Mustang Dyno's are wheel hp and torque numbers - either that or I have a TT which only puts out 190 crank hp - which I know for a fact it doesn't.
Quite frankly, i'm tired of all these dyno "pissing contests". I've been around dyno's for more years than most of you have owned cars. Dyno's are not the end all or be all and can be manipulated in MANY ways. Take the results with a grain of salt and be done with it. 
Oh and for the last time - this thread isn't about AWE's dyno. 

I understand all of that, however I'm curious about the information I've quoted. If you know why it say engine power, and why the manual says it's engine power and not wheel power, could you please pm me the answer.


----------



## rastta (Feb 22, 1999)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
I understand all of that, however I'm curious about the information I've quoted. If you know why it say engine power, and why the manual says it's engine power and not wheel power, could you please pm me the answer.

Just go to the source:
Mustang Dynamometer 2300 Pinnacle Parkway Twinsburg, OH 44087 
Toll Free: (888)468-7826 
Now we can get back to the normally scheduled programming and discuss the APR kit.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Sorry Joe, but I believe I can put this dyno thing to a rest. All chassis dynamometers measure wheel numbers. However, many are capable of accurately calculating crank numbers. To do this is simple. At the end of a power run, leave the vehicle in its current gear and apply the dyno brake. Let the vehicle coast down close to idle and clutch in. The dyno will use the rate of deceleration to calculate a drivetrain loss. From that the crank numbers can be calculated.
Okay, now back to our kit. I'm ready to see some data for comparison.
Arin, give Keith or Mike a call and have a reflash set up


----------



## nico81 (Jul 6, 2007)

Thanks Guy & Keith.


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Joel, that run down procedure makes a number of assumptions and is certainly not 100% accurate at all.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 4, 2007)

Yes Brett, there are many other compensations that go in to the final calculation of A/F. The two I mentioned above are I'd say the most basic. However, the way this specific car was tuned, a slighlty safer Lambda surface will be used when a certain temperature model reaches a certain value and within two months of tuning and mapping this out, I found it to be accuarte 100% of the time.
With that said, regardless of the surface being used, either driver desired or EGT protection, there are, as you mentioned, numerous other factors that contribute to the achieved ratio.



_Modified by [email protected] at 8:32 AM 3-20-2008_


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*

joel - i think brett was talking about the dyno procedure for calculating drive train loss?


----------



## rastta (Feb 22, 1999)

*Re: (mwwVW)*

Dyno Forum


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

*Re: (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_joel - i think brett was talking about the dyno procedure for calculating drive train loss?

Yes, thank you. But thanks for the schooling anyways Joel, LOL.


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 4, 2007)

LOL, sorry. That's what I get for trying to stay on topic and off the whole dyno thing so I apologize Brett for the misunderstanding. 
Anyway, back to the kit!!!!


----------



## SDM (Aug 9, 2007)

Could somebody who's done this mod (Arin??)upload a pic of the DV setup, showing from throttle body to intake, thanks.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (SDM)*



























_Modified by Arin at 11:01 PM 3-20-2008_


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

arin u should frown upon those pics


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (prodigymb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *prodigymb* »_arin u should frown upon those pics









Oh I do. 
The moon is almost full and the clouds were moving really fast outside. I thought about setting up the tripod and getting a really hot shot of the engine bay but just said F it. 
I'll bring my camera this weekend and get as shot of you on the dyno. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
Oh I do. 
The moon is almost full and the clouds were moving really fast outside. I thought about setting up the tripod and getting a really hot shot of the engine bay but just said F it. 
I'll bring my camera this weekend and get as shot of you on the dyno. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

.....and u can show me how to use mine


----------



## SDM (Aug 9, 2007)

Thanks Arin, appreciate the pics. Trying to see if I could modify my intake to accept that recirc pipe, looks like I'll need the other EJ thottle body pipe that has the "noise" extension. Trying to save some $$ when I switch to K04.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (SDM)*

Doesnt seem too difficult. I think I've seen elbow T fitting silicon hoses with bungs built into them. It would require you cutting your intake, or drilling a hole in it, but if the bung is wide enough, you could just install a metal tube in it and connect it to the factory recirculation pipe. Clamp it down and you are good to go.








Something like this.


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

drill a hole in the intake and jb weld


----------



## JeffreyTT (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_

























_Modified by Arin at 11:01 PM 3-20-2008_

You need to ditch those pep-boys hose clamps and get yourself a set of the OEM ones.


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: (JeffreyTT)*

those are much nicer


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_You need to ditch those pep-boys hose clamps and get yourself a set of the OEM ones.










They are preproduction and cost me nothing... I'll deal with it.
BTW, you wouldn't happen to have the parts numbers for those, would you ;-)


----------



## JeffreyTT (Jun 11, 2001)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
They are preproduction and cost me nothing... I'll deal with it.
BTW, you wouldn't happen to have the parts numbers for those, would you ;-)

Of course I have the numbers, but I think the world will collapse if I post them! ;-)


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (JeffreyTT)*

N90687101 $3.23 at any dealer 32x12 spring clamp for recirc pipe part number 1K0145693B


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*



[email protected] said:


> N90687101 $3.23 at any dealer 32x12 spring clamp for recirc pipe part number 1K0145693B[/QUOT
> you need to add these to your k04 thread, arin http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (mwwVW)*

I probably have those on the parts number image. I was only kidding. ;-)


----------



## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (JeffreyTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *JeffreyTT* »_
You need to ditch those pep-boys hose clamps and get yourself a set of the OEM ones.










As much as I hate the non rolled edge open hole style screw clamps. I'd still run them over the spring clamps.
The spring ones lose there tension over time and are a pain to work with in a pinch. 
Since its not under pressure really a zip tie would work just fine


----------



## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
As much as I hate the non rolled edge open hole style screw clamps. I'd still run them over the spring clamps.
The spring ones lose there tension over time and are a pain to work with in a pinch. 
Since its not under pressure really a zip tie would work just fine









x2 hate the spring clamps. before i had a tool to remove them, i cut them off


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*FV-QR*

Here are two videos I did w/ the kit on the track:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giiuvz7p0fE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7_2mAlXizw


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

What about the PCV issues? Does this kit address this?


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*FV-QR*

no need. I've never had a PCV problem. The latest revision seems to do very well.


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Arin)*

What is actually done for the PCV system? My car is currently stage 2 with stock dv and pcv. I know the dv is replaced but what about the pcv system, is it included in the kit?


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*FV-QR*

Both are stock.


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Arin)*

Can you run the stock dv or is it a good idea to switch to a forge unit at time of installation?


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*FV-QR*

I switched from forge back to stock when installing this kit. Besides from the revisions made to the stock DV, some have speculated part of the reason the stock unit was prone to fail had something to do with it being directly on the hot turbo. The S3 kit relocates the DV to the front of the car away from the turbo. It's in a much cooler location.


_Modified by Arin at 5:31 PM 7-7-2008_


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Arin)*

Is this where it is on a stock S3? You have had no issues with your stock dv failing?


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*FV-QR*

It's the same location/setup as the stock s3. I've had no issues.


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_It's the same location/setup as the stock s3. I've had no issues. 

Ok good to know. I just ordered a kit with it being on sale. Any other tips or parts needed for the install. I am gonna put on the S3 intercooler.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*FV-QR*

I went with the APR intercooler because when you think about it, the S3 intercooler came with the stock S3 which is at stock S3 power levels.... this kit is beyond those power levels so extra cooling wouldn't hurt.
The kit comes with all the parts you need to bolt it right up and go so you'll be all set in that department. VW does have a special took for removing the injectors but you can still get them out w/o it. It's just a pain in the butt.


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Arin)*

Yeah I thought about that with the intercooler but I am going to try to leave it as stealth as can be.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (BlownM3)*

Good thing about the APR IC is that it is stealth. It sits exactly where the S3 IC does.


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: FV-QR (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_Good thing about the APR IC is that it is stealth. It sits exactly where the S3 IC does.









I kinda mean stealth from the dealer.


----------



## FlyingTurtle (Mar 26, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (BlownM3)*

i am looking forward to this probably towards the end of the year


----------



## wale (Jun 24, 2007)

hey there, dnt know if sum1 has asked b4 but can we get a video of the stage3 and s3 kits against eachother?
we know how the graphs look, but a video comparison will be the answer to alot of peoples questions...


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (wale)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wale* »_hey there, dnt know if sum1 has asked b4 but can we get a video of the stage3 and s3 kits against eachother?
we know how the graphs look, but a video comparison will be the answer to alot of peoples questions...

Awesome request! Since I have a DSG ED30 K04 and APR has an A3 DSG stage 3 I really wanted to go head to head with it to see how everything matched up. I'll be in the area in the next two weeks so I'll see if I can shoot a video. I'm just as interested as everyone else.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## wale (Jun 24, 2007)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
Awesome request! Since I have a DSG ED30 K04 and APR has an A3 DSG stage 3 I really wanted to go head to head with it to see how everything matched up. I'll be in the area in the next two weeks so I'll see if I can shoot a video. I'm just as interested as everyone else.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

that would be soo f-ing awsome... i personally believe s3 k04 would be enough power, but u cnt really ignore the temptation of more power, especially after seeing the apr stage 3 videos..


----------



## Vdub'07 (Mar 6, 2007)

i have a question about the recirculating DV, 3 questions actually.
1. i can see in the pictures on this page that it kind of bungs off the throttle body pipe (or upper intercooler pipe as neuspeed calls it). i have the neuspeed pipe with no bung, what after market pipes are there that have it or is it worth it to make one?
2. will W/M injection be bad to have with this recirculating set up?
3. i have the forge DV and spacer right now but plan to switch to the bulletproof recirculating DV, will that work well with this kit?
thanx for any info!


----------



## JD GTI (Sep 17, 2006)

*Re:*

FYI--This kit is mentioned in the "Gear" section of the September issue of European Car. They had nice things to say about it, and having ridden in a car with this same setup, I am inclined to agree with them. (also, the price they listed in the mag includes a fuel pump--if you already have one, the kit costs less than they listed) http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## cky89 (Oct 1, 2007)

Any 1/4 mile times?


----------



## cky89 (Oct 1, 2007)

oh, and this can't be used on a 2006?!


----------



## anguishxiii (Jun 8, 2007)

*Re: (cky89)*


_Quote, originally posted by *cky89* »_oh, and this can't be used on a 2006?!

2006 kit was released mid-july, so yes it can.


----------



## cky89 (Oct 1, 2007)

oh awesome, they haven't updated it yet on the site. I was sad for a minute







lol


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

So I ordered a kit while it was on sale last month. I opened the boxes and to my suprise found no installation instructions. I called APR and they told me 2 things that shocked me. First they never made directions since everything is a direct replacement. Second that a noise pipe from a GTI is needed and not included in the A3 kit for an additional $129.
Even if the kit is a direct replacement don't you think directions are required? How do you relocate the dv? That is not a swap out. Also illustrations or pictures of where all these little pieces and clips and torque specs would be helpfull
How can this kit be advertised for use with an A3 if an additional pipe is needed and never made a not of. That is like saying the kit will work with a 3.2l you just need to swap it to a 2.0 first.


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 8, 2007)

*Re: (BlownM3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlownM3* »_So I ordered a kit while it was on sale last month. I opened the boxes and to my suprise found no installation instructions. I called APR and they told me 2 things that shocked me. First they never made directions since everything is a direct replacement. Second that a noise pipe from a GTI is needed and not included in the A3 kit for an additional $129.
Even if the kit is a direct replacement don't you think directions are required? How do you relocate the dv? That is not a swap out. Also illustrations or pictures of where all these little pieces and clips and torque specs would be helpfull
How can this kit be advertised for use with an A3 if an additional pipe is needed and never made a not of. That is like saying the kit will work with a 3.2l you just need to swap it to a 2.0 first. 

Sean,
I am very sorry you were uninformed that the extra part was needed to complete your kit and because of this situation we have added this to our website to inform potential customers of the extra pipe that is needed. As you can see it is already up and listed on the site.
APR ED30/S3 KO4 Kit 
In regards to the instructions, APR has never included instructions with OEM turbo kits as the installation is very easy and straight forward. If you would like you can go to ebahn and get a couple day access to all the info you need for installing OEM turbo components including the DV relocation kit which is a factory ED30/S3 part for about $30. 
Or you can contact our friendly technical support department Monday-Friday from 8am-7pm CST and we can help you with any questions you may have. For the weekends if you get stuck on something, PM me and I will give you my personal cell number and step you through any parts of the installation you may have trouble with. 
Again, I am sorry for the slight discomfort you have experienced and if there is anything I can do for you please don't hesitate to ask!


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Sean,
I am very sorry you were uninformed that the extra part was needed to complete your kit and because of this situation we have added this to our website to inform potential customers of the extra pipe that is needed. As you can see it is already up and listed on the site.
APR ED30/S3 KO4 Kit 
In regards to the instructions, APR has never included instructions with OEM turbo kits as the installation is very easy and straight forward. If you would like you can go to ebahn and get a couple day access to all the info you need for installing OEM turbo components including the DV relocation kit which is a factory ED30/S3 part for about $30. 
Or you can contact our friendly technical support department Monday-Friday from 8am-7pm CST and we can help you with any questions you may have. For the weekends if you get stuck on something, PM me and I will give you my personal cell number and step you through any parts of the installation you may have trouble with. 
Again, I am sorry for the slight discomfort you have experienced and if there is anything I can do for you please don't hesitate to ask!









Thanks for your concern. Well I located a used "y" pipe and that solved that problem. I also ordered a Bentley dvd manual so I should be good to go. I just need to get my stock pcv fixed so I can get a baseline dyno before attacking the kit. Thanks


----------



## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

What's that long wire next to the fuel pump in the first pic with the kit ? Also, from the air pipe (wich is the same on GTI and S3) there's another small hose before that flange that holds the DV (this one is different as compared to the one found on GTI (the one on GTI is followed by the noise pipe) !


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: (fuscobal)*

.
_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_What's that long wire next to the fuel pump in the first pic with the kit ? Also, from the air pipe (wich is the same on GTI and S3) there's another small hose before that flange that holds the DV (this one is different as compared to the one found on GTI (the one on GTI is followed by the noise pipe) !

The wire is the extension for the dv relocation. It plugs into the factory harness at the turbo where the dv originally was and lengthens it so it will reach the new place up front. Yes there is a small elbow hose that goes between the stock GTI y pipe and the dv holder/flange. On the USA version GTI this originally goes to the noise pipe


----------



## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

I guessed that wire would be for the relocated DV but wasn't sure. Thanks for clarification. Yes, I have that elbow for the noise pipe but on S3 engines, instead of that elbow there's a short hose between the y pipe and the DV flange. That small hose cannot be seen in the kit. What happens witj it ? Should it be ordered separately ?


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: (fuscobal)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fuscobal* »_I guessed that wire would be for the relocated DV but wasn't sure. Thanks for clarification. Yes, I have that elbow for the noise pipe but on S3 engines, instead of that elbow there's a short hose between the y pipe and the DV flange. That small hose cannot be seen in the kit. What happens witj it ? Should it be ordered separately ?

It is not seen but it is included in the kit. The only things I needed other than the kit were 1 gallon of antifreeze. I also changed my plugs to one step colder. Other than that every piece down to the last bolt is included.


----------



## fuscobal (Nov 24, 2004)

Aha, get it now. Anything else included in the kit and not shown on that pic ?


----------



## thonczarenko (Aug 26, 2006)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (enginerd)*

So what are the retail prices of the Stage 3, and the new setup?


----------



## EL_3grab (Mar 25, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Arin is correct, I was originally making more torque, maybe 330 wtq. The problem was simple (and as usual disappointing). The map sensor was pegged for close to 1000rpm (at boost onset) and from our standpoint, that's not acceptable. *The S3 K04 is capable of more than the MAP sensor specified (1550 mBar)* but because so many models are based on that limit we've found running above that limit can cause bad things to happen. The main concern being an over boost code that will throw the car into limp mode. I'm not claiming other companies aren't achieving slightly more torque in a safe manor. But, the graphs posted earlier were the most I could get following the guidelines we like to go by.

Any info how much more, and anyway to get around it








I would love 380whp from K04 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 




_Modified by EL_3grab at 8:36 AM 9-26-2008_


----------



## iSot (Mar 6, 2008)

I have just installed (by APR Finland) K04 stage 2+ 93oct program with hpfp and testpipe file to Seat Leon Cupra Mk2. I'm very pleased and happy for the results.







The car pulls now so much harder than before and of course that is good. The only problem is now, that my nearest APR dealer says, that there is no other APR programs or EMCS options available for my Ecu. 
I placed that Apr software and product order at the time, when there was APR moving sale. I have also ordered 2 programs more, which means, that I get overall 4 programs and all EMCS options free. 
Couple of months ago I had an instant message conversation with you Keith (if you remember) and you said, that it is possible to make for K04 even higher octane Race program than 100oct => 104oct and thats what I'm looking for my Cupra








Firstly is there a little chance to get more programs for my K04 system ?? Example these: 100oct Race program and "custom" 104oct Race program and wallet mode for brother and car service







It would be nice, if I could get those all EMCS options too. The Only program what I have At the moment is that 93oct program ( Stage 2+ )
For these Race Programs I'm going to use W/M system and Race Fuel or mixing toluene with regular 94oct Shell V-power, so the octane levels and needs is going to fill. I want and need more power for the Track use. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Currently of course I'm very pleased for the Apr 93oct program and It gives great power band for my Cupra, but It could be more nicer to have all those "missing" programs, what I could/should have. These higher octane Race programs would be good and handy on Race Track. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
I think so you guys already have my Ecu information and number in your database ? My nearest dealer said that he could help me and would also tell more about the situation. 
I could give my email by using instant message. If you need to know more... Feel free to ask....
Thanx and regards... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif











_Modified by iSot at 2:47 AM 10-13-2008_


----------



## Waffle (Mar 5, 2008)

*1/4 Time*

Anyone run the quarter mile with this kit yet? 
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Uber-A3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
Awesome request! Since I have a DSG ED30 K04 and APR has an A3 DSG stage 3 I really wanted to go head to head with it to see how everything matched up. I'll be in the area in the next two weeks so I'll see if I can shoot a video. I'm just as interested as everyone else.







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Did this ever happen?


----------



## gtiiiiiiii (Mar 6, 2004)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *EL_3grab* »_
Any info how much more, and anyway to get around it








I would love 380whp from K04 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Bump for some info on this. A lot of good questions never answered in here.


----------



## Plat (Apr 29, 2009)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! ([email protected])*

OMG...I N.E.E.D. this in my life


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: APR Announces Audi S3 and VW ED 30 Conversion Packages! (Plat)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Plat* »_OMG...I N.E.E.D. this in my life

















http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Plat (Apr 29, 2009)

how much would this be in cdn dollars do you think?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Plat, can you give us a call? Phone: (800) 680-7921 Local Phone: (334) 502-5181


----------



## Weedo (Jul 8, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Also curious about what the 1/4 mile was run in...


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

I have not taken my car to the track.


----------



## Weedo (Jul 8, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_I have not taken my car to the track.

For me, that's what will sell the product. I'm debating going with a kit like this one but want to see more than just dyno numbers. Keep in mind mine isn't a 1/4 mile car but that, to me, is the real judge of the power. It may be traction limited but the mph will show the power.
At the very least it would be nice to see before/after numbers on something like a GTech timer. I use it for every car I've owned, and every time I add a modification. It's proven dead accurate to what horse power levels I've gone to from mod to mod on my other cars.
Just a suggestion of course, but I think it'll help!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

We just picked up a driftbox and will begin reviewing some of our products. I can probably use it on my own car. I'll even throw on a set of factory huff's.


----------



## Weedo (Jul 8, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_We just picked up a driftbox and will begin reviewing some of our products. I can probably use it on my own car. I'll even throw on a set of factory huff's.









.......and some drag radials while you're at it!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (Weedo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Weedo* »_
.......and some drag radials while you're at it!









Hmm, this would take a bit longer to do, but I do have a customer in town with stage II+. If we both use the same wheels the rotational mass between the two cars would be fairly even. We could test both to give a good feel how it goes from stage II+ to the K04. I may even be able to throw him into stock mode as well. We are also both DSG so that should take care of shifting differences between the two.


----------



## Weedo (Jul 8, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Hmm, this would take a bit longer to do, but I do have a customer in town with stage II+. If we both use the same wheels the rotational mass between the two cars would be fairly even. We could test both to give a good feel how it goes from stage II+ to the K04. I may even be able to throw him into stock mode as well. We are also both DSG so that should take care of shifting differences between the two.









Great idea! I'm not as concerned with drag radials as most won't run them on the street or at the track. Then again, when you're up that far in power and stages, it would be tough _not _to change to drag radials.
Would love to see your results, especially if you can do before/after, or even have someone with a similar stock car run at the same day and same time.


----------



## gtiiiiiiii (Mar 6, 2004)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *Weedo* »_
Great idea! I'm not as concerned with drag radials as most won't run them on the street or at the track. Then again, when you're up that far in power and stages, it would be tough _not _to change to drag radials.
Would love to see your results, especially if you can do before/after, or even have someone with a similar stock car run at the same day and same time.


I ran a 13.7 in my stage 2 gti with a 2.1 60 ft. I was unable to get a clean run in with my car after the k04 since I broke a motor mount on the second pass. The first pass had a really bad launch where I managed to bog the car down (very large amount of VHT was used on the track) and get a 2.4 60 ft. Still managed a [email protected] letting off right at the end.
It was my first time at this track and the end looks like it ends before it does.
I think the car is easily low 13's with high 12's capable with a skilled driver on street tires.
I can tell you that the car is just so much stronger than stage 2, especially up top.
I feel it was money very well spent.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

I feel 12's are easily doable on pump fuel.


----------



## Weedo (Jul 8, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (gtiiiiiiii)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gtiiiiiiii* »_
I ran a 13.7 in my stage 2 gti with a 2.1 60 ft. I was unable to get a clean run in with my car after the k04 since I broke a motor mount on the second pass. The first pass had a really bad launch where I managed to bog the car down (very large amount of VHT was used on the track) and get a 2.4 60 ft. Still managed a [email protected] letting off right at the end.
It was my first time at this track and the end looks like it ends before it does.
I think the car is easily low 13's with high 12's capable with a skilled driver on street tires.
I can tell you that the car is just so much stronger than stage 2, especially up top.
I feel it was money very well spent.

So you gained .8 and 6mph (roughly 60-70hp if you're speaking in those terms) not including your issues. Hard to say for sure since your car/launch/track wasn't ideal. And we all know it's more than 60-70hp at the motor for your gains! It'll be fun to see what you can run with a normal launch and a better motor mount!


----------



## sirsycott (May 16, 2007)

will this kit allow me to use my OEM "D" piston operated diverter valve?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Yes.


----------



## handsome rob is taken (Apr 7, 2009)

me thinks my turbo is getting close to being toast. what do us passat guys do with the noise pipe since our cars never came with one?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*FV-QR*

Get one of these:
http://store.goapr.com/product....html


----------



## AF778 (Jan 20, 2009)

Will this conversion kit fit a right hand drive vehicle?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (AF778)*

Yes


----------



## mkim (Jun 17, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*

i might pull a trigger on the s3 turbo kit for my audi a3 with hpfp kit. Are you guys going to have any sale or can hook me up? I have a giac ecu flash right now but since i'm switching can i also get a discount on the program too? hook me up please! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif















uberA3 makes me want to put this damn k04 on my car too!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (mkim)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mkim* »_i might pull a trigger on the s3 turbo kit for my audi a3 with hpfp kit. Are you guys going to have any sale or can hook me up? I have a giac ecu flash right now but since i'm switching can i also get a discount on the program too? hook me up please! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif















uberA3 makes me want to put this damn k04 on my car too!









PM Sent!


----------



## mkim (Jun 17, 2008)

i pmed back let me know asap


----------



## AF778 (Jan 20, 2009)

*Need help in Installlation*

My workshop is having some problems in figuring out how to install the DV relocation for the conversion. Below are some pictures that are associated with the questions. 
Picture 1: This part of the K04 turbo seems to be different from the K03. (Missing housing for the harness)








Picture 2: My workshop has no idea what this particular part is for.








Picture 3: Same problem as my workshop cant figure out what this part is for.








I suspect that my workshop has no idea how to do a relocation of the DV for the conversion. Can anyone give us a simple step by step explanation on how to do it cause we have no access to a workshop manual. Thanks.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: Need help in Installlation (AF778)*

Your Diverter Valve attaches to the silver piece you posted. It's a DV housing. IT's no longer mounted on the turbo. 
There is a bung coming off your throttle body pipe which connects to the nose pipe. Disconnect the noise pipe and attach the silver DV housing to the throttle body pipe bung with the supplied silicon hose. 
Then attach that long silicon hose from the DV housing and route it all the way around to the new supplied turbo inlet pipe with bung. 
It will look like this:
DV Area (front of car)









Overview:









Turbo Inlet Closeup:


----------



## AF778 (Jan 20, 2009)

*Re: FV-QR ([email protected])*

Thanks for the detailed instructions. We got it now.








except one last thing. It appears that my throttle body pipe doesn't have a bung on it. Is that normal for a 2008 EU spec GTI? Anyways, I guess I have to get the one with the bung. Can I get some help with the VW part number for it so that I can order it asap from my local VW dealership. 
Picture of my current throttle body pipe:


----------



## mkim (Jun 17, 2008)

has apr ever ran intake other than carbonio? please help. i'm installing my apr kit i got last week and i need answers from APR!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (AF778)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AF778* »_Can I get some help with the VW part number for it so that I can order it asap from my local VW dealership. 


1k0 145 770 p


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (mkim)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mkim* »_has apr ever ran intake other than carbonio? please help. i'm installing my apr kit i got last week and i need answers from APR!

yes


----------



## mkim (Jun 17, 2008)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Could you tell me which intake? I ask b/c my friend tried evom but it kept on giving him CEL. I personally got the bsh true seal k04 version.








i can't wait to put this beast on!


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (mkim)*

I'm sure customers have tried many different intakes. We personally don't try others hardware.


----------



## mkim (Jun 17, 2008)

Hi was hoping for atleast a sticker to come with that huge packaging but no..i didn't see anything. Can anyone from apr send me a sticker


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Re: (mkim)*

send me an email with your info.
[email protected]


----------



## S3 Audi (May 28, 2010)

*???*

Hi, APR
I have an Audi S3 with the stock k04, do you sell the software for my car so i can get those numbers?? I'm currently at 320 WHP (on a mustang dyno) with superchips / mybluefin software ( http://www.mybluefin.co.uk/ ) 

thx :thumbup:


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

S3 Audi said:


> Hi, APR
> I have an Audi S3 with the stock k04, do you sell the software for my car so i can get those numbers?? I'm currently at 320 WHP (on a mustang dyno) with superchips / mybluefin software ( http://www.mybluefin.co.uk/ )
> 
> thx :thumbup:


 Here is the software we sell for your car: 
http://www.goapr.com/products/ecu_upgrade_20tfsi_trans_265hp.html 

Stage 2+ on race fuel will get you 362 HP!


----------



## tautvydasv (Mar 13, 2007)

It is not 320whp, it is flywheel


----------



## tautvydasv (Mar 13, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Here is the software we sell for your car:
> http://www.goapr.com/products/ecu_upgrade_20tfsi_trans_265hp.html
> 
> Stage 2+ on race fuel will get you 362 HP!


What about on Euro 98 ? I would guess around 330 hp?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

tautvydasv said:


> What about on Euro 98 ? I would guess around 330 hp?


Euro 98 will be slightly better than US 93.


----------



## tautvydasv (Mar 13, 2007)

I am really intrested in Euro numbers.

I have pirelli edition with practically all supporting mods, except intercooler.


----------



## tautvydasv (Mar 13, 2007)

Anyone in Europe with ED30/Pirelli specific software from APR? What are your dyno proven gains?


----------



## MFT-Motorsport (May 14, 2007)

Hi tautvydasv,

we (APR Germany) burned tons of E30 and Pirellis here since they are out and one of our shop cars runs the APR Stage 3 Kit. In general we see a bit better result with 98 (Super Plus) or especially with 100/102 (ARAL Ultimate/ SHELL V-Power) petrol as the US Guys with 93. But don’t compare just the numbers, the counting is different, so 93 is similar to our 95/98 octane. RON/MON Octane rating System. I recommend going straight to APRs stage 2+, the HPFP Tune and the great RSC Exhaust will kick the ass out of the stock K04, it’s awesome! :laugh:

Check our Pirelli here: APR Pirelli GT400


----------



## tautvydasv (Mar 13, 2007)

If it is a gain till 335 hp, then for me it is not worth paying 800-900eur for it. I have at the moment around 320 as I am using bluefin stage 3 remap.

As for exhaust system, I have catless dp of 76mm and turbo back by milltek it ends up with 70mm, so I am sure it is really good quality. Other mods include autotech fuel pump, BSH cold intake, rs4 high pressure fuel release valve.

Now on my target I have dsg remap, r32 brakes (current ones are too weak for track day), and maybe later a new remap.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

tautvydasv said:


> If it is a gain till 335 hp, then for me it is not worth paying 800-900eur for it.



Tautvydasv,

This kit and software is designed for a GTI which does not have this turbocharger from the factory. 

Your car comes with this turbo and as such we make software for your car just like you have with your current reflash. 

We also offer a reflash for adding an exhaust and finally one for adding a high pressure fuel pump.


The stage 3 kit APR Germany posted does well over 400 hp on your engine especially with your awesome european fuels!


----------



## ZGTIBT (Oct 4, 2010)

Arin on APR Germany they mention with Stage 3 Rods are required in Motorsport --> mean 100 Oct only ? ..


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

ZGTIBT said:


> Arin on APR Germany they mention with Stage 3 Rods are required in Motorsport --> mean 100 Oct only ? ..


The website does not say 'required'.


----------



## MFT-Motorsport (May 14, 2007)

Hi ZGTIBT,

feel free to ask us direct if you have any questions about our website! Simple use [email protected] We are happy to answer! Regarding your question now, we correct it to: "If you want to use the APR Stage 3 in Motorsports and / or with the Race Fuel tune, we suggest to use stronger the rods!" Just to be on the safe side....


----------



## ZGTIBT (Oct 4, 2010)

APR Germany said:


> Hi ZGTIBT,
> 
> feel free to ask us direct if you have any questions about our website! Simple use [email protected] We are happy to answer! Regarding your question now, we correct it to: "If you want to use the APR Stage 3 in Motorsports and / or with the Race Fuel tune, we suggest to use stronger the rods!" Just to be on the safe side....


Cool, thx _''When using the Stage 3 Turbo kit in the motor sport and / or with the race for 102 + octane gasoline vote recommend the use of reinforced connecting rods!''_

btw the yellow GTI aka GTI400 looks amazing :thumbup:

Deutschland gehen !! :laugh::thumbup:


----------

