# MkIV Handling- a different approach



## vanagone (Jun 13, 2002)

For 2 years I've been experimenting with dogbones, motor mounts, alignment settings, etc. trying to get the front end of my 337 to stop understeering and plowing. I had a '92 Jetta GLi that cornered on rails, so I couldn't believe a 337 couldn't do it too. When I'd go real stiff with dogbone bushings and/or tranny & motor mount, the bite of the front end improved alot but the noise was unbearable. After endless experimentation I realized something important. When I stiffened up motor mounts or dogbone bushings it's wasn't the reduced engine movement that improved handling (think about it, why would it be?), it was _the engine acting to reduce movement of the subframe through the dogbone_! A few months ago I removed the subframe from my 337. I was amazed at how flexible the whole thing was and how wimpy the rear subframe bushings were. The subframe and these bushings are the key to getting a MKIV to stop understeering! Those that say "improve your handling by limiting engine motion with our poly dogbone bushings/motor mounts" have it completely backward. It's not less engine movement that aids handling, it's less subframe movement. 
When I had the subframe out, I strengthened it by welding steel bar-stock braces inside and outside. This helped, but the biggest change came from making new rear subframe bushings. It took a lot of trial and error so I can't provide detailed instructions here, but I took polyurethane boat trailer rollers and turned them down on the shaft of a bench grinder. A slightly oversized top and bottom half are put in the subframe then squeezed to hold the subframe tightly when the bolt is torqued down. 
I'm back to a stock dogbone mount and don't need anything tighter. The interior isn't as quiet as stock, but it's far better than with poly dogbone bushings.
What a change in the handling! The steering is far more accurate than my brother's M3 and the front end just won't give up in corners. I can throw the tail out any time I want, or balance it in a 4 wheel drift. Hard accleration creates no front end lift. None. When I get wheel spin, it's both front wheels equally with no wheel hop at all. I just can't believe that all of the other MKIV tweakers out there have missed this one. 
If you're comfortable fabricating and experimenting, give it a try.


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## eggroller (May 25, 2000)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (vanagone)*

Interesting. I just might mess with this idea!


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## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (vanagone)*

VWMS (bildon) used to sell harder rubber bushings for the subframe. I also beleive that powerflex bushings make these in poly.


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (Banditt007)*









something to think about.

food for thought.. how hard would it be fabricating a subframe....


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## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (vanagone)*

That is awesome. Many months ago I modified my dogbone bushings to make them stiffer by shaving one of them thinner and refilling the gap with epoxy and I effed it up at 1st. The length of the dogbone was too short so to get it attached to the car I had to apply over 100 lbs of force...bad-bad-bad BUT it's my only car and I needed to drive it. I instantly felt the steering response was greatly increased and I was stunned & confused about why (I made a thread about on here and got laughed at!







). I figured that the engine itself was acting as a chassis stiffener but not quite sure how. Your explanation that the engine was bracing the subframe & its bushings makes a lot of sense. Sad thing was that after 8 hours something shifted and that >100 lbs of force had relieved itself and took with it the awesome steering response. I then fixed the dogbone length problem but didn't get back the great steering response though I didn't expect to because it was from the tension/compression issue.
What I'm saying is that I accidentally/dangerously got a similar effect that you did with your custom subframe bushings...your method is good though! Can you please provide some pictures or something so we can get a better idea of what your custom bushings look like?
P.S. Just the other day I started making 2 cross braces for my subframe to stiffen it because as you said it's flimsy. I'm not getting my hopes up about how much it will help but at least it's a fun project.
I dug up my thread for anyone interested: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2084259


_Modified by groftja at 3:44 AM 3-18-2006_


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## racer-z (Feb 6, 2004)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (groftja)*

snap some pictures of the braces you are making if you can. I have been thinking about the same thing but haven't had time to fab anything. (BT project has been taking precedence).
vanagone: if you have pics of the stock bushings vs your modified ones please post them. do you think solid subframe spacers would improve it even more than the poly bushings. I know in 300zx's that are set up to race the stock rubber subframe bushings are removed for solid aluminum spacers.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (racer-z)*

Nice! Yeah pics would be greatly appreciated!

I wonder how much VW has improved the rigidity of the MkV frame as that thing has awesome handling/road-holding.



_Modified by phatvw at 4:17 PM 4-8-2006_


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## briang (Mar 10, 1999)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (vanagone)*

Thanks vanagone for the post. 
A summary of your post, if I understand it, is that the MK IV VW A-chassis front subframe is flimsy and handling improves with increasing the rigidity of the subframe and the subframe mounting bushings. 
Is this correct. 
If so, I will have to challange my friends with welding skills to strengthen my front subframe.


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## Banditt007 (Oct 23, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (briang)*

There is a bolt on brace from the TT that diesel geek used to sell that was specifically to stiffen the subframe.


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## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (racer-z)*

racer-z: Sorry for not providing pics...my stiffeners aren't on yet but I have cut them to size. My stiffeners are simply 1/4" thick by ~1" wide pieces (one is ~8" long and other is ~10 " long) of 2024 aluminum that bolt onto the pre-existing threaded holes on the rear of the subframe and they bolt on the other end right next to the rear bushings of the subframe. The latter attachment (next to the rear bushings) will be made by drilling 1/4" diameter holes in the sheetmetal there and use 1/4" Grade 8 bolts/nuts. So the 2 braces are at an angle (about 45 degrees) so I call them cross braces although they don't brace the entire subframe which would be much more effective. What I'm making is similar to the early Audi TT subframe cross braces that I've seen in suframe assembly diagrams of early Audi TT's that Audi Dealerships have in the Parts Department. BTW, the later TT's used a different subframe than our MKIV. This is just a start...I'll decide later if I want to further stiffen it. I do already have an OMP subframe brace that seemed to make an improvement that stiffens the front of the subframe so I decided I should stiffen the rear portion by this method. If I make additional braces, I might tie them into the OMP brace if that looks like a good idea.
If my description makes little sense it should be much clearer if you get under the car and look for the 2 pre-existing threaded holes and the sheet metal lips around the rear bushings of the subframe. 
BTW, there are aftermarket subframe locking bolts available for Subaru Imprezas that are meant for racing only. This eliminates all subframe bushing movement. I'm not sure if they say for racing only because it is hard on something (some part(s) won't last on the street) or it's just so uncomfortable. I got the impression that the reason was the first possibility. On the other hand, poly subframe bushings might be an effective, long lasting method. There's one other option that I've been thinking of. Keep existing subframe bushings, but secure the subframe to the chassis with 2 metal "dogbones" that have stiff rubber or poly bushings on each end (one end bolted to the subframe and the other end bolted to heavy duty mounting plate that is riveted securely to the chassis). I'll have to figure out the finer details of how this could be done.


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## IndigoBlueWagon (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (vanagone)*

Where can I find the OMP subframe brace? It sounds like a combination of that brace and stiffer bushings would make some significant improvement. I was about to stiffen the dogbone mount but this makes a lot more sense to me.
BTW, TDI owners who've added steel skidplates report improved handling. Interesting.


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## vanagone (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (vanagone)*

I hear all you guys asking for photos/details. I don't want to remove the bushings to get pics, but I think I still have set of bushings that i didn't use (discovered a big air bubble in the polyurethane after I turned it down to size). I'll try to get some pics of the subframe and braces too.


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## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

Are you guys sure this is a good idea? I'm sorry but what happens when you rip your undercarriage off your car?
I know this thing is flimsy because of a wreck I had that forced my first one to be replaced. I just hope the rest of the car can hold onto a stiffened up appendage that still uses the exact same, non-additional, non reinforced subframe bolt locations.


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (kungfoojesus)*

here is one... dont crash!


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## RichB (Jun 7, 2003)

*Re: (7thGear)*

Very interesting discussion! I imagine the bushing under discussion is item 2 in the picture below? This is the Audi TT Subframe which shows braces on the subframe (items 30 & 34). I need to do some futher digging in ETKA to see if bushing 2 on the TT subframe is the same one on the Golf subframe.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (RichB)*

*Audi TT* from ETKA page 199-20
1: 8N7199313E sub-frame (coupe/early roadster) ($400+)
1: 8N7199313F sub-frame (late roadster) ($400+)
2: 8N0199282C bonded rubber mounting upper? Why upper/lower - there is only one. ($45)
2: 8N0199282D bonded rubber mounting lower? ($45)
Package (8N1-070 000) This is the brace that dieselgeek used to sell:
30: 8N0199403B brace front lower: ($30)
31: N10467901 bolt M10x50-SW16
32: N90477301 washer B8,4x24x3
33: N90914701 rivetted cap nut M10/1 8-5-A
Brace (there are two of these packages on the roadster)
34: 8N7199401 brace front and rear ($20)
35: N0195024 hex bolt with shoulder M8x25
??: 8N0199399 lock washer 
From different page:
Upper strut bar?
37: 8N0805629B helper reinforcement upper ($142)
*Golf*
1: 1J0199313J sub-frame ($265+)
2: 1J0199429 bonded rubber bushing ($32)



_Modified by phatvw at 1:29 PM 3-19-2006_


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## IndigoBlueWagon (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

It would be great if those #2 mountings are different (read: stiffer) material on the TT. That would be the start of an easy improvement.


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## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (RichB)*

Thanks RichB and phatvw for the info. My 2 braces I'm making are much like Item 34 in Rich's figure, but mine are stiffer. That's where I got the idea in the 1st place. That would be great if either of you could figure out if the TT bushings are stiffer. If they are 2 piece, that seems to indicate they are stiffer...often stiffer bushings must be 2-piece so they can be installed.
Indigo: don't get an OMP brace...I had to enlarge its holes to let the bolts go through it. Other than that it's fine but that sucked that I had to modify it to make it fit. Get a lower brace from Autotech or Neuspeed (only the solid 1-piece kind).


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## IndigoBlueWagon (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: (groftja)*

Will do on the brace. Thanks for the advice. I still want to know about the TT bushings, however.


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## CDN_MKV (Feb 19, 2005)

*Re: (IndigoBlueWagon)*

Also a must upgrade is large control arm bushing. The TT bushing is a direct fit and made a huge difference in initial turn in response and braking was vastly improved also. Much more positive feel all around and it was a cheap upgrade. 
JJ


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## wishboneracing (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (vanagone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vanagone* »_the biggest change came from making new rear subframe bushings. 

Cool, makes plenty sense.








FWIW, it's common on rally cars of all brands to replace the rubber subframe bushings with solid (aluminum) bushings. Of course on these cars vibration transfer and ride harshness don't matter. Only driving precision, and strength. 
Remember, cars didn't have subframes at all at one point (ie. Mk1). The rubber isolated subframes are nice for vibration isolation, and good for assembly line purposes, and good for replacement in case of accident (minimize damage to the shell). And good (if not good enough apparently) at adding strength/stiffness to the front clip. But there's nothing inherently wrong with installing solid subframe bushings. There's still some movement in the wishbone bushes.
Also, BTW like others I really don't recommend polyurethane for suspension bushings. With a bit of pounding from the road, it soon deforms and leaves things sloppy -- very bad. Poly has little elasticity anyway. Those boys at Neuspeed etc created a real nice little money-maker for themselves with those colourful red things.
Cheers
Pete


_Modified by wishboneracing at 9:03 AM 3-21-2006_


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## wishboneracing (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: (CDN_337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CDN_337* »_Also a must upgrade is large control arm bushing. The TT bushing is a direct fit and made a huge difference in initial turn in response and braking was vastly improved also. Much more positive feel all around and it was a cheap upgrade. 
JJ

Cool, there's our answer -- the TT large control arm bushes are stiffer! This sounds like a no-brainer upgrade! Thanks. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (wishboneracing)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wishboneracing* »_Cool, there's our answer -- the TT large control arm bushes are stiffer! This sounds like a no-brainer upgrade! Thanks. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


Yup, and the swap is no prob:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2300853


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## wishboneracing (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_

Yup, and the swap is no prob:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2300853


hmm, looked like a PITA with little noticeable improvement -- any update??


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (wishboneracing)*

Haven't taken my car on the track yet and I have a long-standing alignment issue that I need to get sorted out. So I probably won't ever be able to offer an opinion on that particular mod since I will never have a back-to-back comparison


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## VWChimera (Jul 9, 2004)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (vanagone)*

If someone else was going to attempt this it might be helpful if you can provide some of the dimensions you took for the subframe bushing, the bushing location, and the bushings you used to turn down. Also I'm curious to hear what bushing you used as your starting material? I was thinking a set of LCA bushings might be close in size but I wanted to hear what you used first. Anything you could offer would be greatly appreciated.


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## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

I inquired about the reinforcement bars for the subframe and DG told me to use their panzer skidplate.
I read the description on the plate and it has a bar in the rear of it to help stiffen the frame. No idea what the bar is or how it works! I just know they say its there and it stiffens the flimsy rear of our front subframe.
I guess most people in the suspension forums don't need a skidplate but I just thought it would be sad if some slammed rides ended up with better turn in response just because they were iinadvertently stiffening their front frames in an attempt to otherwise protect their oil pans!
http://www.dieselgeek.com/Detail.bok?no=358


_Modified by kungfoojesus at 9:44 AM 3-23-2006_


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## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re:*

Here is the 1st of my 2 custom subframe braces installed. It is the rectangular piece in the pic.








Close Up:











_Modified by groftja at 6:48 PM 3-23-2006_


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (groftja)*

built those yourself?
more pics!
where did u get that lower tie bar
why is everything but the tie bar green??


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## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (7thGear)*

Yes I built the cross brace myself and put it on last night.
The lower tie bar is from OMP but as I told IndigoBlueWagon, people should get the Autotech or Nuespeed bar instead.
The pics look green because of the camera setting.


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## Turbozo (Nov 17, 2005)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (vanagone)*

Pretty much every manufacture that races (BMW, Honda, Merc, Chevy, etc) has an aftermarket subframe bracing system for motorsport. I known there are many for the old skool MkI and II VWs.
Some are full cross braces like Turner Motorsports:








Some are pannels like King Motorsports :








Or a complete package like this on from GT Spec:








Miata:








Mustang:


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (groftja)*


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## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (7thGear)*

Good idea 7thGear and that is one that I've been considering. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (groftja)*

seems tho the CAT might be in the way








ohh well.. time to bend stuff!


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## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (7thGear)*

Exactly...there isn't much clearance under the cat. Once I get the 2nd brace on, I plan to next brace the subframe to the chassis itself, but still isolated with an off-the-shelf rubber bushing inserted into a custom piece of metal. IOW, picture a rectangular piece of metal that has a rubber bushing installed on one end and the other hand just has a hole for the bolt (no bushing there). I fear that if I did not include any bushing, the lateral (sheer) loads between subframe and chassis would deform the chassis' sheet metal where this brace was mounted (plus cause lots of vibration). Here are some bushings that would work: http://www.avproductsinc.com/b...ndard


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: Re: (groftja)*

Nice work groftja!

_Quote, originally posted by *groftja* »_









Looks just like the braces on the TT roadster. Did you have any truble drilling the extra hole next to the main subframe bolt? I assume you are using a real nut and bolt on both ends rather than a threaded insert or whatnot?


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## VWChimera (Jul 9, 2004)

*Re: (groftja)*


_Quote, originally posted by *groftja* »_Exactly...there isn't much clearance under the cat. Once I get the 2nd brace on, I plan to next brace the subframe to the chassis itself, but still isolated with an off-the-shelf rubber bushing inserted into a custom piece of metal. IOW, picture a rectangular piece of metal that has a rubber bushing installed on one end and the other hand just has a hole for the bolt (no bushing there). I fear that if I did not include any bushing, the lateral (sheer) loads between subframe and chassis would deform the chassis' sheet metal where this brace was mounted (plus cause lots of vibration). Here are some bushings that would work: http://www.avproductsinc.com/b...ndard

The above link could be very helpful for replacing the subframe bushing if we knew what size we need. Does anyone have this information or are we on our own?! I would really like to know if I can find something that is already prefabricated for this location.


_Modified by detailer03 at 5:23 PM 3-23-2006_


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## IndigoBlueWagon (Aug 9, 2004)

*Re: (detailer03)*

Me, too. I'd really like to not have to deal with my Audi dealer, but I think I'll take the diagram on P1 in there and see what they can get me.


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## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Nice work groftja!
Looks just like the braces on the TT roadster. Did you have any truble drilling the extra hole next to the main subframe bolt? I assume you are using a real nut and bolt on both ends rather than a threaded insert or whatnot?


Yes, I got the idea from that schematic of the Roadster TT when I saw it over a year ago - finally got around to doing it. That hole next to the main subframe bolt wasn't very hard to drill. To keep the hole where I wanted it while drilling, I had to start with a really small bit, then a midsized bit, then the final 1/4" dia bit. The bolt/nut combo is Grade 8 hardware with lock washer. That extra piece of metal you see sandwiched in the pic (beneath the 1/4" bolt) is a necessary 1/4" thick spacer. On the other end the subframe has threaded hole for a M8-1.25 metric bolt, so that's the bolt I used. Threadlocker compound used on all hardware too.
So phatvw, have you figured out if the TT subframe bushings are the same as the MK4 subframe bushings? Thanks.


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## seesquared (May 4, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw) (groftja)*

So wait, am I understanding this correctly - does the VW Mk IV subframe not have holes in it from the factory for the TT braces? It sounds like you had to make your own holes groftja. I'll have to get mine up on the ramps tonight and see what's already there.
modified to add the last sentence.


_Modified by seesquared at 10:45 AM 3-24-2006_


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## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw) (seesquared)*

The subframe has 2 threaded holes already- the M8-1.25 metric thread holes (in the pic it is the farther away bolt). The 2 thru-holes that you have to drill yourself are next to the subframe's bushings I chose 1/4" thru-hole and 1/4" Grade 8 bolts/nuts. There isn't much room on the lip there next to the bushings so drill the holes right.


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## The Prime Ministah (Nov 7, 2002)

*Re: (phatvw) (groftja)*


_Quote, originally posted by *groftja* »_The subframe has 2 threaded holes already- the M8-1.25 metric thread holes (in the pic it is the farther away bolt). The 2 thru-holes that you have to drill yourself are next to the subframe's bushings I chose 1/4" thru-hole and 1/4" Grade 8 bolts/nuts. There isn't much room on the lip there next to the bushings so drill the holes right.

Looks like an Upcoming project. I want to Do some Braces like this, and also make some sort of make shift skid plate in the process


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (phatvw) (The Prime Ministah)*

keep in mind not to go overboard
i saw a skid plate for sale that was like 22 lb!
22lb is alot, if you end up with like 60 lb in bracing equipment i wonder if its really worth it. espcialy at the front end.


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## The Prime Ministah (Nov 7, 2002)

*Re: (phatvw) (7thGear)*


_Quote, originally posted by *7thGear* »_keep in mind not to go overboard
i saw a skid plate for sale that was like 22 lb!
22lb is alot, if you end up with like 60 lb in bracing equipment i wonder if its really worth it. espcialy at the front end.

well Id like some sort of protection because Im pretty low... my front lip is less than 3 inches off the ground


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (phatvw) (The Prime Ministah)*

if your that low your car handles like crap anyway so whats the point (from a performance perspective)


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## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

*Re: (phatvw) (7thGear)*


_Quote, originally posted by *7thGear* »_if your that low your car handles like crap anyway so whats the point (from a performance perspective)









The point is better handling. Just because you like the 4x4 look and everyone else doesn't, don't get all touchy because a slammed ride wants to handle better. Its all relative.


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## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: (phatvw) (kungfoojesus)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kungfoojesus* »_








The point is better handling. Just because you like the 4x4 look .... 

blah, blah, blah .... 
poke around here for even a short while and you'll learn not to put, "slammed" and "better handling" in the same sentence. These terms just don't go together ....


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## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

Well, yeah...








Anyway, so subframe braces eh? Those look pretty cool. Stiffening the front subframe is my next job. I'm going to take it one step further and reinforce the front bumper too. I figured I would try the bumper just because nobody seems to think strut tower braces do much.


_Modified by kungfoojesus at 5:21 AM 3-26-2006_


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## kungfoojesus (Jan 10, 2005)

*Re: (phatvw) (7thGear)*

Hey man.
I know slammed rides don't handle as well as everyone thinks. However, there's no need to screw up a really good thread with lots of useful information on bracing the subframe just because some guy with a lower than using your brain car came in there. Thanks dude I know you hate thread hijacks too.








I'm about to ship some springs up to Toronto. If I have any problems I'll let you know so you can hunter the guy down. I figure you won't mind because I'm trading my H&R race for H&R sport springs haha.


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## The Prime Ministah (Nov 7, 2002)

*Re: (phatvw) (kungfoojesus)*

here's the thing. I have my car "Slammed" I also show my car. Probably another thing that doesn't go over too well in this forum. 
But I am also en-rout of having some sport spindles. So that should correct for most of my Drop Issues.
I also have a cage and many other things. 
But Id have to say the Cage made a Drastic change in the handling


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## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: (phatvw) (The Prime Ministah)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Prime Ministah* »_here's the thing. I have my car "Slammed" I also show my car. Probably another thing that doesn't go over too well in this forum.

Nope. Not for or against slamming or showing - just dumbfounded when somone slams their car and says it'll outhandle anything on the street.

_Quote, originally posted by *The Prime Ministah* »_I also have a cage ... 
Unless this is a track only car, and you always wear a helmet whenever you drive, this is one of the most UNSAFE things you can do --- mellon meets bar ... guess which one wins?


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## The Prime Ministah (Nov 7, 2002)

*Re: (phatvw) (f1forkvr6)*

3 inch 5 pt Camlock Willans......


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw) (The Prime Ministah)*


_Quote, originally posted by *The Prime Ministah* »_3 inch 5 pt Camlock Willans......










What an odd setup. Whats with the angle of the harness straps behind the seat??? I thought those are supposed to point downward no more than 30° for safety spec. 
Also whats the point of a roll cage in the rear of the car only? Its not protecting the front passengers at all??? Unless I'm missing something in the photograph. Guess I had better see it in person at a local GTG eh? You gonna show it at Waterwagens this year?
Just curious, has this car even been evaluated for SCCA competition rules?


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## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (phatvw) (phatvw)*









with roll cages, either go big or go home, otherwise your just adding weight and not really making the car any safer... altho your stero equipment is definetly gonna survive...
see this picture, TRIANGLES, the more directly connected the better.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw) (7thGear)*


_Quote, originally posted by *7thGear* »_
see this picture, TRIANGLES, the more directly connected the better.


First lesson in CIV 101 at any Engineering school: the _truss_.


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## The Prime Ministah (Nov 7, 2002)

*Re: (phatvw) (7thGear)*


_Quote, originally posted by *7thGear* »_
with roll cages, either go big or go home, otherwise your just adding weight and not really making the car any safer... altho your stero equipment is definetly gonna survive...


Ohh strust me, I understand. I always did good with geometry. 
I guess im trying to cause a fuss here
I like my car, I have made some sacrafices for looks. (IE; too low, not as good of suspension)
the cage is an autopower bar I dont know how certified it is. I got the cage and was pretty cheep. 
I know its not the most effective when It comes to cages. I understand all that bit. But I dont race my car, I just drive it. 
But I did notice a huge difference in handeling by the way.


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## Golf_kris (Dec 2, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw) (The Prime Ministah)*

So my ECS poly dogbone bushings = bad.
Safe way to stiffen subframe = lower tie bar?


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw) (Golf_kris)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Golf_kris* »_So my ECS poly dogbone bushings = bad.
Safe way to stiffen subframe = lower tie bar?

Nothing wrong with a poly dogbone bushing at all. It reduces engine movement and a side effect is to sitffen the subframe via the engine as well.


----------



## meaculpa20v (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw) (phatvw)*

The harnesses installed at that angle will result in injury to the passengers if they ever came into use. it would force your shoulders down and crush your spin. Just as back as the alternative. Smashing your face into the dash. Bad news.

Eric


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw) (meaculpa20v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *meaculpa20v* »_The harnesses installed at that angle will result in injury to the passengers if they ever came into use. it would force your shoulders down and crush your spin. Just as back as the alternative. Smashing your face into the dash. Bad news.

Eric

Hey how does that happen exactly? I was thinking of getting one of those plug-n-play Schroth harnesses a while ago, but was advised against it because of the >30° thing. Are there any crash test dummy video demo's of how the different types of belts protect you in a crash?

Google video just has the standard crash tests:
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=crash+test



_Modified by phatvw at 5:03 PM 3-27-2006_


----------



## meaculpa20v (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw) (phatvw)*

I saw it on one of those Spike TV car shows. If you can imagine, a person sitting down in a seat with harnesses bolted to the floor. The harness is not holding them back against the seat rather they are holding them to the floor. So if you hit something straight on or break really hard your body moves forward but the harness is pulling down on your shoulders. Bad situation
With the harnesses correctly installed behind you the harness is holding you against the seat, the correct way, so if you move forward the harness just pulls your body back. 
I believe the guy who was explaining it was on the show "Trucks!" You maybe able to find it on Spike TV site. 
Eric


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw) (meaculpa20v)*

Oh I get you. good example of bolting it up at the extreme 90° angle directly to the floor. If your seatback had a pully mechanism and guides for the belts, then it wouldn't matter what the angle was right?


----------



## meaculpa20v (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw) (phatvw)*

Wow that is amazing I never thought of that, but yeah a pulley setup would fix that problem and you could theoritically set the harness anywhere. Except I don't think that most harnesses are long enough to be bolted to the floor and reach through a pulley then back to the front seat. Great idea though.
Eric


----------



## VWChimera (Jul 9, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw) (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Oh I get you. good example of bolting it up at the extreme 90° angle directly to the floor. If your seatback had a pully mechanism and guides for the belts, then it wouldn't matter what the angle was right?

Depending on the seat and the height of the person, the slots for the racing harnesses could act in almost the exact same manner as the pulley system you are describing. Then it might not matter if they are bolted to the floor?!


----------



## wishboneracing (Feb 14, 2005)

*Those belts are just wrong*

whoa, hold on. Tho this isn't a safety harness thread, I gotta point out more that's wrong with the pictured setup. 
In addition to the too-low rear mounting, the shoulder harnesses are also crossed -- another definite no-no. In a front impact, crossed harnesses tend to pull together, which isn't a good thing for your neck. Just think about it, if your body is being pushed bigtime towards the dash.... crossed belts become scissors. In this particular case pictured, it's probably not a big deal because of the seat's two harness openings. But why not do it right.
And the whole pulley-on-seattop idea is correct in theory, for understanding the direction of forces, but please don't anybody think it'll work that way in practice. Seats aren't that strong, harness openings aren't that high. Belts must be done right or just don't f*g around with it in the first place. 
Personally, I think cars for show with plain wrong unsafe installs are kinda pathetic. Speaking as someone who has rolled, piroutted, endover'd, head-on'd into trees, etc etc in rally cars while competing. And seen much worse. Don't f*g around with your belts. Stuff happens. Nothing stupider than unsafe safety equipment.
Sorry for foaming at the mouth a bit on this. 
Pete


----------



## meaculpa20v (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: Those belts are just wrong (wishboneracing)*

Sorry for hi-jacking the thread. The bottom line is, just install your harnesses the correct way, it's safer.
Eric


----------



## VWChimera (Jul 9, 2004)

*Re: Those belts are just wrong (wishboneracing)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wishboneracing* »_whoa, hold on. Tho this isn't a safety harness thread, I gotta point out more that's wrong with the pictured setup. 
In addition to the too-low rear mounting, the shoulder harnesses are also crossed -- another definite no-no. In a front impact, crossed harnesses tend to pull together, which isn't a good thing for your neck. Just think about it, if your body is being pushed bigtime towards the dash.... crossed belts become scissors. In this particular case pictured, it's probably not a big deal because of the seat's two harness openings. But why not do it right.
And the whole pulley-on-seattop idea is correct in theory, for understanding the direction of forces, but please don't anybody think it'll work that way in practice. Seats aren't that strong, harness openings aren't that high. Belts must be done right or just don't f*g around with it in the first place. 
Personally, I think cars for show with plain wrong unsafe installs are kinda pathetic. Speaking as someone who has rolled, piroutted, endover'd, head-on'd into trees, etc etc in rally cars while competing. And seen much worse. Don't f*g around with your belts. Stuff happens. Nothing stupider than unsafe safety equipment.
Sorry for foaming at the mouth a bit on this. 
Pete


Great point! As you mentioned I was speaking from theory. In practice it is always best to take the recommended precautions as you just never know what may happen. In short, I have to give a bump for promoting safety and otherwise apologize for getting off topic.
As for the subject at hand does anyone have anymore information for us would be fabricators?


----------



## seesquared (May 4, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw) (groftja)*


_Quote, originally posted by *groftja* »_The subframe has 2 threaded holes already- the M8-1.25 metric thread holes (in the pic it is the farther away bolt). The 2 thru-holes that you have to drill yourself are next to the subframe's bushings I chose 1/4" thru-hole and 1/4" Grade 8 bolts/nuts. There isn't much room on the lip there next to the bushings so drill the holes right.

I finally was able to confirm this on my subframe this morning. I'm getting the parts together to brace up the subframe. I hope that it will stop raining so that I can do some proper before and after testing...


----------



## VWChimera (Jul 9, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw) (seesquared)*


_Quote, originally posted by *seesquared* »_
I finally was able to confirm this on my subframe this morning. I'm getting the parts together to brace up the subframe. I hope that it will stop raining so that I can do some proper before and after testing...

This is just a thought but would it be possible to connect the other arm of your support braces to the large control arm bolt. You would need an elbow in the support beam to clear the subframe itself but then you wouldn't need to drill anything and it would already have the rubber bushing... again this is just a thought.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw) (detailer03)*


_Quote, originally posted by *detailer03* »_This is just a thought but would it be possible to connect the other arm of your support braces to the large control arm bolt. You would need an elbow in the support beam to clear the subframe itself but then you wouldn't need to drill anything and it would already have the rubber bushing... again this is just a thought.

One of the vendors makes a brace that hooks into the front LCA bushing bolt. Have to look it up. IIRC it is a very tight fit with the VR6 oil pan.
Front LCA bolt pic:








Are you talking about hooking into the rear LCA bushing bolt? That would be harder because there is a lip on the subframe. I think you would have to put a big spacer in there and you might not be able to re-use the oem bolt any more since it would be too short.
Rear LCA bolt pic:










_Modified by phatvw at 6:09 PM 3-28-2006_


----------



## performula (Apr 10, 2003)

Someone should make a subframe kit because these parts (bushings, fab work, etc) are confusing.







DIY sticky with instructions!


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (performula)*

Haha sounds like another phatVW FAQ project








Ok what would you like to be included in a FAQ/DIY thread to start? How bout a list of all mods OEM, aftermarket, and custom-fab which stiffen the lower subframe on MkIV *street* cars?
Kinda like my rear swaybar list:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1579554


----------



## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Sounds like a GREAT idea. I wonder how hard it would be to turn up some alu peices.


----------



## VWChimera (Jul 9, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw) (phatvw)*

I meant the bolt circled in the picture below... I guess I'm not sure which bushing it is given the angle of the photo but it could very well be the LCA bushing. After posting I also came to the realization that long bolts and a sizable spacer might be needed but all the same I think it's an interesting idea!








By the way are you saying that an aftermarket bar connected to the front of the LCA's will have the same effect as what you are doing or would this be something total different? I know NS, Eurosport, and Autotech all makes these sort of products but I remember those being more for turn-in than correcting understeer (as mentioned by the original poster).


_Modified by detailer03 at 8:56 PM 3-29-2006_


----------



## sabredylan (Nov 10, 2005)

*Re: (IndigoBlueWagon)*

The TT Roadster bushes are much stiffer. They are made from solid aluminium, with about 1 mm of rubber coating on the contact parts. That subframe won't be moving anywhere. I'd insert an image, but I could work out how to do it.


----------



## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (phatvw) (detailer03)*


_Quote, originally posted by *detailer03* »_I meant the bolt circled in the picture below... I guess I'm not sure which bushing it is given the angle of the photo but it could very well be the LCA bushing. After posting I also came to the realization that long bolts and a sizable spacer might be needed but all the same I think it's an interesting idea!








By the way are you saying that an aftermarket bar connected to the front of the LCA's will have the same effect as what you are doing or would this be something total different? I know NS, Eurosport, and Autotech all makes these sort of products but I remember those being more for turn-in than correcting understeer (as mentioned by the original poster).

_Modified by detailer03 at 8:56 PM 3-29-2006_

thats not the LCA bushing thats the rear subframe bushing, and i would not dare attach it to that bolt... there is enough stress on it, in my opinion.
i think what was done is excelet, or, go 1 step further and do what is done on the TT (from the pictures on the previous pages) and attach it directly to the body of the car.


----------



## alomI wolleY iTG (Dec 7, 2003)

*Re: (sabredylan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sabredylan* »_The TT Roadster bushes are much stiffer. They are made from solid aluminium, with about 1 mm of rubber coating on the contact parts. That subframe won't be moving anywhere. I'd insert an image, but I could work out how to do it.


o'rly? anyone with pics?
hmm, pretty much explains why, on my '01 jetta 1.8t, the wheel hopping went away after replacing the stock subframe bushing withharder VWMS units
but that was years ago when vwmotorsports.com was in biz, since then they went bust... i bought my entire VWMS bushing kit from them at a great kit price (front/rear CA, strut top, subframe, and rear trailing arm).
now the seller's market charges an arm and a leg for these bushings










_Modified by alomI wolleY iTG at 12:47 PM 4-10-2006_


----------



## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (alomI wolleY iTG)*

so why not just buy OEM TT units.. ahah


----------



## alomI wolleY iTG (Dec 7, 2003)

*Re: (7thGear)*

it's a shame there was never a comparison or a side by side photo comparison of the VW MS, TT coupe, and TT roadster units


----------



## 99golfofpa (Dec 31, 2005)

*Re: Re: (groftja)*


_Quote, originally posted by *groftja* »_Here is the 1st of my 2 custom subframe braces installed. It is the rectangular piece in the pic.
Close Up:










ok, just a few questions:
1. is that 1/4" steel you used for the brace?
2. do you have a dimension of the brace you made, ie length, width, etc?


----------



## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (groftja)*


_Quote, originally posted by *groftja* »_My stiffeners are simply 1/4" thick by ~1" wide pieces (one is ~8" long and other is ~10 " long) of 2024 aluminum that bolt onto the pre-existing threaded holes on the rear of the subframe and they bolt on the other end right next to the rear bushings of the subframe. The latter attachment (next to the rear bushings) will be made by drilling 1/4" diameter holes in the sheetmetal there and use 1/4" Grade 8 bolts/nuts. So the 2 braces are at an angle (about 45 degrees) so I call them cross braces although they don't brace the entire subframe which would be much more effective. 
If my description makes little sense it should be much clearer if you get under the car and look for the 2 pre-existing threaded holes and the sheet metal lips around the rear bushings of the subframe. 


Above is from page 1. In another post, I tell what metric thread the threaded holes are in the subframe. I think it's M8-1.25 but go check for that post...sorry I'm busy at work and half-lazy here right now.


----------



## sabredylan (Nov 10, 2005)

*Re: (alomI wolleY iTG)*

Here's a picture of The TT Roadster bush


----------



## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (sabredylan)*

so its 2 peices?
and do u have the part numbers? if yes can u verify them with the ones given on the 1st page? 
doomo arigatto


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## sabredylan (Nov 10, 2005)

*Re: (7thGear)*

Yes they are 2 piece, compared to the one piece standard bush. They are solid and won't move. You'll need a new subframe bolt, as it has a bigger washer and they are stretch bolts anyway. The part numbers I used are:-
8N0 199 282C - UPPER BUSH (X2)
8N0 199 282D - LOWER BUSH (X2)
N 907 528 01 - SUBFRAME STRETCH BOLT WITH BIGGER WASHER (X2)
I think part numbers are the same worldwide, but please check before you buy.


----------



## seesquared (May 4, 2004)

*Re: (sabredylan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *performula* »_Someone should make a subframe kit because these parts (bushings, fab work, etc) are confusing.







DIY sticky with instructions!

Does this mean that you're volunteering? If you say something like this at a meeting where I work, you've officially volunteered yourself!









_Quote, originally posted by *sabredylan* »_Yes they are 2 piece, compared to the one piece standard bush. They are solid and won't move. You'll need a new subframe bolt, as it has a bigger washer and they are stretch bolts anyway. The part numbers I used are:-
8N0 199 282C - UPPER BUSH (X2)
8N0 199 282D - LOWER BUSH (X2)
N 907 528 01 - SUBFRAME STRETCH BOLT WITH BIGGER WASHER (X2)
I think part numbers are the same worldwide, but please check before you buy.

Thanks for confirming the p/n's sabredylan. 
I purchased and installed the front subframe brace, which is quite easy once you know what you're doing with the rivnuts. You can't use the stretch bolts to install them, and you need a flat and relatively thin (~2mm) piece of metal with a hole in it to hold the rivnut in place. This is something that I did not have, but thankfully my friend had one from when he installed his dieselgeek skid plate. He also had some very strong bolts to use for installing the rivnuts. A big thank you to dieselpower for the tools and pointers on the install.
It was installed several days ago now, and I only notice a difference at the extremes when cornering. On my "unofficial test course" I noticed that the car responds more predictably at the limit. Before the install when I would provoke some off-throttle oversteer, the tires would let go, then grab, let go, then grab - it was a kind of oscillation and not a smooth slide. Now the grab and let go is gone. I can do a controlled slide more predictably and the turn-in is less vague feeling than it was before.
The other suspension mods that were already done to the car are the TT spindles and control arms, SofSport springs, Koni yellows and a Neuspeed 28mm RSB. Once again, thanks to dieselpower for the guidance and assistance!


----------



## Shad (Feb 8, 2003)

*Re: (sabredylan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sabredylan* »_Yes they are 2 piece, compared to the one piece standard bush. They are solid and won't move. You'll need a new subframe bolt, as it has a bigger washer and they are stretch bolts anyway. The part numbers I used are:-
8N0 199 282C - UPPER BUSH (X2)
8N0 199 282D - LOWER BUSH (X2)
N 907 528 01 - SUBFRAME STRETCH BOLT WITH BIGGER WASHER (X2)
I think part numbers are the same worldwide, but please check before you buy.

How much for them?


----------



## sabredylan (Nov 10, 2005)

*Re: (Shad)*

They were £60 UK pounds which is approximately $110 dollars. You might get them cheaper though.


----------



## alomI wolleY iTG (Dec 7, 2003)

*Re: (sabredylan)*

whew... the VW MS parts look better now


----------



## VWChimera (Jul 9, 2004)

*Re: (sabredylan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sabredylan* »_Yes they are 2 piece, compared to the one piece standard bush. They are solid and won't move. You'll need a new subframe bolt, as it has a bigger washer and they are stretch bolts anyway. The part numbers I used are:-
8N0 199 282C - UPPER BUSH (X2)
8N0 199 282D - LOWER BUSH (X2)
N 907 528 01 - SUBFRAME STRETCH BOLT WITH BIGGER WASHER (X2)
I think part numbers are the same worldwide, but please check before you buy.

Where these difficult to install? How much work is involved (time/process)? Since they are two piece do you still need to remove the subframe? Sorry for all the questions but I'm trying to get a feel for how difficult this is and whether or not its worth it. 
That and I just got my car back together and I'm really not ready to take it apart again...


----------



## sabredylan (Nov 10, 2005)

*Re: (detailer03)*

I haven't fitted the bushes yet, so I can't say what's involved. The one piece that is fitted at the moment, is fitted using a special press tool. Provided that this one piece is not in a metal sleeve, it should be easy to cut out with a sharp knife. The two piece should be straight forward then. Once the upper and lower bushes are in place, they will press in as you tighten the bolt. This is what I'm hoping anyway. The only area that you need to know is how to remove the one piece bush with subframe in place. Perhaps "vanagone" who started this post can advise on this, as he has changed these bushes.


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (sabredylan)*

If your going to go through with all of this, you really need to have sold spherical joints in the lower control arms. LCA movement is pretty severe even with eurethane bushing installed. The subframe movement is minimal in comparison. I have tire wear marks in my wheel wells from tires with ~1" of static clearance. Sticky race tires, 3 or even 2 wheeling the car around an auto-x course deforms the bushings big time. Not to mention the eurethane tends to bind up at full extension. 
I picked up these from H2 sport last week. Also included a modified ball joint mounting point. These move the ball joint outward to add another degree of negative camber. Ill be running 3 degrees of negative camber up front for Limerock.


----------



## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (enginerd)*

whats with the zip ties in the bushings??


----------



## alomI wolleY iTG (Dec 7, 2003)

*Re: (7thGear)*

that's how they are shipped to prevent them from moving around during shipping
spherical bearings...


_Modified by alomI wolleY iTG at 11:06 AM 4-11-2006_


----------



## meaculpa20v (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: (enginerd)*

How much did those bad boys run you??
Eric


----------



## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (meaculpa20v)*

409 CAD + tax for those of us up north







from H2 Sport


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (7thGear)*

Give them a call. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## wishboneracing (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: (alomI wolleY iTG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *alomI wolleY iTG* »_spherical bearings...



I'm sure it's been said many times elsewhere -- but spherical bearings are a very high maintenance item, pretty hard core for a street car. Count on changing them regularly, and Feeling the bumps in the road.


----------



## wishboneracing (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (vanagone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vanagone* »_the biggest change came from making new rear subframe bushings.
What a change in the handling! The steering is far more accurate than my brother's M3 and the front end just won't give up in corners. I can throw the tail out any time I want, or balance it in a 4 wheel drift. Hard accleration creates no front end lift. None. When I get wheel spin, it's both front wheels equally with no wheel hop at all. 

I re-read the original post, and am wondering about the no front end lift statement. Hmm. How do stiff subrame bushings do that?


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

*Re: (wishboneracing)*

These look like very quaility pieces. I dont drive in the winter, and put few miles on the car. i expect them to last a long time. SHINE claims a good number of miles on some street driven setups. There are many different kinds of bearings. Teflon lined, Stainless, Sintered Steel with oil impregnation, etc. So I woudl nto generalize and say that they are all junk and wont last very long. True I had some electrodyne endlinks on my sway bar that lasted about 10K miles, but they were junk materials to begin with. 
Ill report back when I get some miles on them.


----------



## wishboneracing (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: (enginerd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *enginerd* »_. I dont drive in the winter, and put few miles on the car.. True I had some electrodyne endlinks on my sway bar that lasted about 10K miles, but they were junk materials to begin with. 
Ill report back when I get some miles on them. 

Let us know, I was just cautioning others. The no-winter, few miles caveat is important for people. And an LCA bearing is a critical, load-bearing app, much more so than an anti-roll bar.
Do any of these brg kits come with protective boots or seals? If the pounding doesn't kill em, the dirt will. But then my background is in rally -- lotsa pounding and even more dirt....different story.
Cheers, Pete


----------



## VWChimera (Jul 9, 2004)

*Re: (sabredylan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sabredylan* »_I haven't fitted the bushes yet, so I can't say what's involved. The one piece that is fitted at the moment, is fitted using a special press tool. Provided that this one piece is not in a metal sleeve, it should be easy to cut out with a sharp knife. The two piece should be straight forward then. Once the upper and lower bushes are in place, they will press in as you tighten the bolt. This is what I'm hoping anyway. The only area that you need to know is how to remove the one piece bush with subframe in place. Perhaps "vanagone" who started this post can advise on this, as he has changed these bushes.

Please keep us posted as to your progress. It will be good to hear how your installation goes.
Vanagone: Can you offer any more input about the bushing removal? Thanks


----------



## VWChimera (Jul 9, 2004)

Has anyone installed the TT bushings yet? Any updates?


----------



## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (detailer03)*

I have an update. I finally got the second of the two cross-braces attached to the subframe 2 days ago. I've been able to drive the car hard many times since then and my review is: wow! The car's precision and composure during hard turns is noticeably improved. Hitting ruts in the road doesn't make a disturbing "bang" noise in the dashboard like it used to; now the same ruts make a light "thump" noise instead. Steering response is improved. The 2nd of the two braces I just added is right behind the dogbone so it's limiting subframe deflection rearward from engine torque and I can feel the transmission of torque is "less delayed/filtered" and shifter seems to engage/disengage smoother. It's similar to adding stiffer dogbone bushings. I'm convinced there is a lot of improvements to be found by reinforcing the subframe and and adding stiffer subframe bushings like the original poster did. I'm thinking of adding TT subframe bushings next.
To those of you with aftermarket lateral lower subframe braces like Autotech, etc., these cross-braces made improvements similar in nature to what your brace did, but it is more noticeable and also makes an improvement to engine response (assuming it's a 1.8T or VR6; the 2.0 is too wimpy likely







).


----------



## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (7thGear)*

Yep, pics comin' right up...gotta go outside and snap them.


----------



## rono1 (Apr 23, 2002)

*Re: (7thGear)*


_Quote, originally posted by *7thGear* »_PiCs

X2.... i'm trying to whip my porker into shape..... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Ohhh ish... page 4 ownerage... i'm a virgin.... hehe.. never again.
by the way great thread boys!!


_Modified by rono1 at 7:57 AM 4-28-2006_


----------



## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (rono1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rono1* »_
X2.... i'm trying to whip my porker into shape..... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Ohhh ish... page 4 ownerage... i'm a virgin.... hehe.. never again.
by the way great thread boys!!

_Modified by rono1 at 7:57 AM 4-28-2006_

nuh huh








page 4 pwng


----------



## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re:*

This is not easy to photograph with the little space available!
Passenger side








Another passenger side pic








Driver side








Driver side again








Driver side-zoom in


----------



## rono1 (Apr 23, 2002)

*Re: (7thGear)*


_Quote, originally posted by *7thGear* »_nuh huh








page 4 pwng


DOH....! you had to go and piss in my cheerio's huh?















I'm goin to buy these braces fairly quickly.. good job on the pics... 
Way to hustle!!!
question on EPC5/ETKA, my copy allows me only to view up to 2001... 
IM if you know of a way to get current...


----------



## enginerd (Dec 15, 2001)

Any reason not to just weld them on there?


----------



## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (enginerd)*

Only reason not to weld is that the subframe already supplies 2 threaded holes which I utilized. But you could just weld to them anyway. I don't have a welder or a lift to create enough space under the car to weld under there.


----------



## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (groftja)*

so you custom fabed the bars tho right? as well as the little square spacers/washers?


----------



## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (7thGear)*

Correct. I have a lot of 1/4" thick 2024 aluminum plate and I just jigsawed it to size and made the spacers out of that too. All I had to buy were bolts, washers, nuts. It was a $5 mod! Grade 8 or comparable hardware preferred so they can be torqued hard-core. The metric bolt that threads into the subframe's existing threaded holes was stainless steel...good enough for that location.
You don't have to use 1/4" thick aluminum. Could use two layers of 1/8" thick steel plate from the hardware store. Whatever you can put there that is decently stiff will work. 


_Modified by groftja at 4:56 PM 4-28-2006_


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## meaculpa20v (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: Re: (groftja)*

I need to do this. How much were parts and where did you get them?? 
Eric


----------



## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (meaculpa20v)*

Cost me a couple bucks for hardware. I already had aluminum plate. Lowes or Home Depot will have what you need.


----------



## don5504 (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: (meaculpa20v) (groftja)*

ok i was going to ask what lengths the bars were. but i've read and found out already. one is 8 inches the other 10 inches. is there any reason you made them different sizes instead of the same length?
also who makes that other bar down there you have?
D


_Modified by don5504 at 2:18 PM 4-28-2006_


----------



## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (don5504)*

Because the subframe is actually assymetric in regards to the locations at which the ends are mounted. That's the only reason. You'll see it if you look under the car.
My other bar is made by OMP (Italian) but people should buy the Autotech bar because it fits without modification unlike mine.


_Modified by groftja at 10:23 PM 4-28-2006_


----------



## asaa (Apr 11, 2005)

*Re: (don5504) (groftja)*


_Quote, originally posted by *groftja* »_Because the subframe is actually assymetric in regards to the locations at which the ends are mounted. That's the only reason. You'll see it if you look under the car.
My other bar is made by OMP (Italian) but people should buy the Autotech bar because it fits without modification unlike mine.

_Modified by groftja at 10:23 PM 4-28-2006_

Is there any noticeable difference when cornering?


_Modified by asaa at 4:16 AM 4-29-2006_


----------



## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (asaa)*

Yes. Check out my review on previous page.


----------



## asaa (Apr 11, 2005)

*Re: (asaa) (groftja)*


_Quote, originally posted by *groftja* »_I have an update. I finally got the second of the two cross-braces attached to the subframe 2 days ago. I've been able to drive the car hard many times since then and my review is: wow! The car's precision and composure during hard turns is noticeably improved. Hitting ruts in the road doesn't make a disturbing "bang" noise in the dashboard like it used to; now the same ruts make a light "thump" noise instead. Steering response is improved. The 2nd of the two braces I just added is right behind the dogbone so it's limiting subframe deflection rearward from engine torque and I can feel the transmission of torque is "less delayed/filtered" and shifter seems to engage/disengage smoother. It's similar to adding stiffer dogbone bushings. I'm convinced there is a lot of improvements to be found by reinforcing the subframe and and adding stiffer subframe bushings like the original poster did. I'm thinking of adding TT subframe bushings next.
To those of you with aftermarket lateral lower subframe braces like Autotech, etc., these cross-braces made improvements similar in nature to what your brace did, but it is more noticeable and also makes an improvement to engine response (assuming it's a 1.8T or VR6; the 2.0 is too wimpy likely







).

Wow, I'm glad there are people like you on forums like these who help people like me















Thanks again for taking one for the team and trying the stiffening out. I'm going to have to add this mod to my list of things to do... It's just too cheap not to


----------



## VWChimera (Jul 9, 2004)

What was the width of the bars you used? I started mocking up a piece today but I didn't know how much room I had to work?!


----------



## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (detailer03)*

Width is about 1.0 inches. My advice is to look over the situation and do what you think is best instead of trying to follow what I did; it will probably be easier that way. Here are some tips though: use strongest bolts/nuts you can find so you can torque them a lot, use lock washers, use strongest threadlocker you can find, drill carefully since the drill bit will want to migrate on the subframe and you don't get many chances, start with a centerpunch mark and a tiny drill bit and work your way up in size, don't drill through a spot weld - drill between them, don't drill too close to the edge of the subframe or too far from the edge, make the clearance holes as small as possible to fit your bolts through, wear eye protection when drilling the subframe (I didn't and got metal in my eye!), paint holes and all other parts so they don't rust/corrode. Lastly, take your time and don't rush it. 


_Modified by groftja at 10:50 PM 5-1-2006_


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## AutoXMan (Aug 7, 2002)

One thing about those braces. While 1/4" steel is pretty strong, any flat stock will be weak in compression due to the tendancy to buckle. You would be much better off with T shape stock, or welding a T brace. You can taper the ends or even cut the T off (making it flat stock) at the very end if needed. The buckling tendancy is a function of the length of unbraced material, so getting the 'T' shape as close to the end as possible will provide most of the reinforcement anyway.


----------



## wishboneracing (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: (AutoXMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AutoXMan* »_any flat stock will be weak in compression due to the tendancy to buckle. You would be much better off with T shape stock.

Technically this is true, tho we're no where near buckling here -- its mainly a potential vibration issue. Go ahead and use thick flat bar, just make sure it is straight! If its bent the compression stiffness falls v v quickly.
Why T shape? Angle stock is much easier to find and use, and achieves the same thing. Or small square tube? Some aluminum extrusion would be best for weight and no rust IMO, easy to get at a metal distributor or even Home Depot I think. The point is a 3d shape to have a bit of stiffness in all directions.
My 2 cents. PS- I add my thanks to groftja for trying this and reporting back.


----------



## amgtorre (Apr 28, 2000)

*Re: (wishboneracing)*

Good thread !! I'm looking how to reduce understeer!
I did some racing this weekend on the track, the biggest area for improvement is understeer ...
I'll look into this modification, as I read this the biggest help came form the TT bushings and then the subframe reinforcements ? right ?
My current suspension setup is :
- Autotech 28mm rear sway bar on the stiffer setup
- Front lower tie bar
- Rear wheel spacers 10mm
- Tires are 225/50/16
- KYB shocks, non-adjustable
- stock springs 
- stock front sway bar
edit: also have urethane bushings on the LCAs and dog bone 
Car is a SEAT Leon 1.8t , mustly a Golf with a different body
Any other recommendation how to reduce understeer?



_Modified by amgtorre at 4:14 PM 5-2-2006_


----------



## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: (amgtorre)*


_Quote, originally posted by *amgtorre* »_Any other recommendation how to reduce understeer?

Ditch the rear spacers.


----------



## redwe-in-wi (Dec 20, 2001)

*Re: (amgtorre)*


_Quote, originally posted by *amgtorre* »_
Any other recommendation how to reduce understeer?
_Modified by amgtorre at 4:14 PM 5-2-2006_

-more static negative camber
-TT/R32 spindles
-lca extenders


----------



## amgtorre (Apr 28, 2000)

*Re: (f1forkvr6)*

yes it will oversteer a little without the rear spacers, I was on this track before without the rear spacers, and it did oversteer when I lifted my foot of the gas, this time it did not. 
Altough I beleive the oversteer was due to less grip on the rear, and not due to more grip in the front. 
This time on the track I did better lap times, 
seems the idea to modify the LCA is more of what I'm looking for.
Thanks!


----------



## wishboneracing (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: (amgtorre)*


_Quote, originally posted by *amgtorre* »_Any other recommendation how to reduce understeer?
_Modified by amgtorre at 4:14 PM 5-2-2006_

Depending on regs of course-- 225s front, 205s rear will help with that understeer issue very simply. I once had a Mini (the real one, 10 foot box) with 165 tires up front, and 145's on rear. It rotated quite easily. Much fun.







Make the front ones 225/17's and you'll go faster too.
Or go rallying. Loose surfaces = back end slip angles = fun. Steer with your left foot. Dry tarmac = tame. yawn... where is that yawn icon??



_Modified by wishboneracing at 3:00 PM 5-2-2006_


----------



## GTItraveler (Apr 24, 2002)

*Re: (wishboneracing)*

Additionally you can run higher tire pressures in the rear than the front. This will make the back end easier to rotate. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## amgtorre (Apr 28, 2000)

*Re: (amgtorre)*

Seems I'll be able to get a set of used TT spindles , I'll should know tomorrow http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Plus the reinforcements to the subframe 
This will get interesting


----------



## pwnt by pat (Oct 21, 2005)

http://video.google.com/videop...+test
anyone else find this funny? 
"Using high tech scientific tools" *BAM!!* swinging hammer slams in to dummy"


----------



## don5504 (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: (pwnt by pat)*

I want my 2 minutes and 11 seconds back.








D


----------



## TheCdn337 (Apr 19, 2006)

*Re: (sabredylan)*

Sabredylan have you installed the bushings yet? It would be great to hear how these things work out for you.


----------



## rono1 (Apr 23, 2002)

*Re: (sabredylan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sabredylan* »_ Perhaps "vanagone" who started this post can advise on this, as he has changed these bushes.

VanaGONE is right! 

Where is the OG poster, i want to try this Boat trailer roller idea!!!


----------



## samwisemueller (Jan 2, 2006)

*Re: (rono1)*

i just finished mounting the TT style braces on the rear of the subframe, i can post pics too, but its very similar to the previous pics anyway. the work went very quickly and the results are astounding to say the least. i have an autotech lower stress bar on the way, which will compliment this setup very well, i highly reccomend that anyone with a little bit of time just does this. thanks to all for your pictures and expertise.


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## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (samwisemueller)*

That's awesome bro! Now I'm not the only one with those on my car. I noticed the nuts gets slightly loose after a week or two of driving and I have to get under the car to tighten them (even though I used thread locker compound and lock washers). So my plan is to epoxy the nuts to the bolts so they only come loose when I want them to.
BTW, I'm from York and still visit there often so it looks like 2 PA guys (I'm still a PA guy in heart) are the only ones who've done this mod. So it's time for others to do it and post their impressions!


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## rono1 (Apr 23, 2002)

i was the home depot, looking st the thick metal strips for the subframe and i came across a square 4 sided aluminum type hollow rod. when i compared both bars square to flat, the square bar wouldn't even flex at all opposed to the flat bar. the flat bent a lil but not that much.
so i thought well if autotech uses them (aluminum) to attached the rear sway... why not use a aluminum square rod to brace up the subframe? it's lighter and seems to be stronger..... what do you think?


----------



## phatalbert (Aug 24, 2003)

So, the subframe already has 2 threaded holes so I wont need to drill my own under the car? If this is the case I will get on this right away. Also, Im curious as to the post above as well.


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## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re:*

Tubing will work. It will hang down lower than thinner flat stock though. Use thick large dia. washers to help spread out the bolts' compressive load on the tubing. 
Two news holes must be drilled in the subframe. Other two are already there and are threaded.


----------



## phatalbert (Aug 24, 2003)

Ive been under the car lately, changing wheels and brake pads, and i looked at the subframe, the front passenger side. I found 2 holes (which arent threaded), but I did not look at the other side yet. Is the other side the one which needs to be drilled?


----------



## samwisemueller (Jan 2, 2006)

*Re: (phatalbert)*

i think the holes you're referring to are just voids in the subframe, look more like punched out holes than anything else. you are looking for 2 holes on the rear of the subframe, can't miss them. peek in from behind the wheel instead of from the front. the braces we've used connect from those two points to matching points at the very rear of the subframe, on the lip that surrounds the subframe to chassis bushing. the photos should be very clear once you're under there, and the work is very very easy to do, and the payoff is huge, i was baffled. keep us posted.


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## phatalbert (Aug 24, 2003)

Hey, Does stiffening up the front of the car reduce understeer?? I know that a stiffer/thicker sway bar in the front INCREASES understeer... Is it a different case when stiffening up the sub-frame?? I want my understeer reduced as much as possible.


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## samcat67 (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: (phatalbert)*

You are on the right track. Increasing the stiffness of the frame is different from increasing the roll stiffness with thicker sway bars.
A stiffer frame means reduced deflection under load so the suspension is better able to function as designed. The flex of a chassis is sometimes called the "5th spring" because its flex under load modifies the effective spring rates of the suspension.


----------



## phatalbert (Aug 24, 2003)

*Re: (samcat67)*

Right. So making the sub-frame stiffer is like making the "5th spring" stiffer, but making the front sway stiffer is like doing nothing to the "5th spring" and putting more stress on the front suspension, instead of this "5th spring"??? In other words, if i want understeer reduced, dont mess with the sway bar in front, only stiffen the subframe, and put a sway bar in the rear in order to lose more traction in the rear, thus keeping the front gripping and improving handling performance??


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## RabbitsKin (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: (phatalbert)*

My contribution to this thread:

































Welded sub-frame stiffener, TT bushings and spindles, LCA extenders with camber set to -1.5, and _no front swaybar_ at the recommendation of Pyce. Car has stiff springs and doesn't need the bar. Hollow oversized rear sway. She turns in crisp and handles like a dream on the twisties, but I don't have any track times for you number crunchers. The dogbone bushings cause a little vibration at idle. 
Removing the front sway not only improved the grip but made the ride MUCH nicer, by the way. No creaks, squeaks, or protests. 


_Modified by RabbitsKin at 11:20 AM 8-16-2006_


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## f1forkvr6 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: (RabbitsKin)*

What spring rates are you running?
If you have "contact" with Peter, say hi for me.


----------



## RabbitsKin (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: (f1forkvr6)*

I believe PSS9's are 400 lb., but I could be wrong. 
No contact with Pyce other than occasionally on this forum!


----------



## TheCdn337 (Apr 19, 2006)

*Re: (RabbitsKin)*

RabbitsKin did you do the TT sub-frame bushings or only the a-arm ones? I want to do the sub-frame bushing's from the TT but haven't heard anything on the fit or the install.


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## RabbitsKin (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: (TheCdn337)*

I didn't replace the subframe bushings. After looking at their design, they looked really robust to me. Not only weren't they worn, but I couldn't see how they could be improved. I did use the TT bushings on the control arms tho.


----------



## ovlaicu (Mar 19, 2005)

*Re: (RabbitsKin)*

Anybody installed the TT subframe bushings yet?


----------



## rono1 (Apr 23, 2002)

*Re: (ovlaicu)*

I believe they are the same.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (rono1)*

Full TT bushing kit are goin in this weekend.
And i will put as many 1/2 support stay on as possible.
And my motor is solid mounted already








Bwtf something that really helped is that i removed my rebar for a custom one that is much stiffer and the car felt like better then ever so ill guess ill be even more satefied with all bushings + support stay


----------



## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Bwtf something that really helped is that i removed my rebar for a custom one that is much stiffer and the car felt like better then ever so ill guess ill be even more satefied with all bushings + support stay


A while back I reinforced my bumper (rebar) and percieved that it gave improved rigidity to the chassis as well. I no longer have it because a few months after doing it, I was in a fender bender and ruined by bumper and had to get another. As an aside, the reinforcement actually took some of the load in the crash as well.
If you look at how the chassis are designed in most cars, you can see that rigidly tying the two front "frame rails" together adds a lot of torsional rigidity to the front end. The stock MK4 bumper is not designed to rigidly tie them together...I could tell by analyzing it's design. The sad part about adding weight there is it's at one of the worst places to do it, so design and material used must be light and effective.


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## ovlaicu (Mar 19, 2005)

*TT subframe bushings vs TDI bushings*

As it was not clear through out this thread if the subframe bushings are any different from a TT to a VW Golf/Jetta and I had to change the steering rack on a TDI, I decided to take out the subframe bushings and check them out.
Here is what I found: They are one piece with a lot of rubber (see pics)
























I am not sure if all MKIV came with the same bushings but it is clear that the TT ones are definetly an improvement over the stock ones.
Mine will go in in a week or so. I will try an post some impressions.


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## zak (Aug 27, 2004)

What's the composition of the TT subframe bushings??


----------



## ovlaicu (Mar 19, 2005)

*Re: (zak)*

Aluminum body covered in a thin layer of rubber and the center shaft is a hard plasticlike teflon I think.
Here are some pics.


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## GTItraveler (Apr 24, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

*foffa2002* : could you provide more information on stiffening the front rebar? pictures would be great and out of curiosity, why do you (and others) feel the stock rebar doesn't reinforce the front of the car enough? TIA


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (GTItraveler)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTItraveler* »_ *foffa2002* : could you provide more information on stiffening the front rebar? pictures would be great and out of curiosity, why do you (and others) feel the stock rebar doesn't reinforce the front of the car enough? TIA

Hi 
I acctually removed mine and made 2x2inch T-bar cross over bar.
T-bar is very stiff and making a X bar with T-bar its uber stiff.
Have no pics .
But it use oem bolt holes and is just a cross (X) style bar.


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## zak (Aug 27, 2004)

*Re: (ovlaicu)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ovlaicu* »_Aluminum body covered in a thin layer of rubber and the center shaft is a hard plasticlike teflon I think.
Here are some pics.

















Did you install the TT subframe bushings yet? A little DIY would be very helpful







! Also, since they are 2-piece, you don't need a press to install them, right?
Thanks!


----------



## ovlaicu (Mar 19, 2005)

*Re: (zak)*

I ordered mine in a hurry and I didn't know that each half has a different part number. So I ordered one of each. Which gave me only a full bushing for a side. So I just ordered the other 2. I think some time this week or weekend they'll all go in so I will put up a nice DIY.
But, when I took the stock one out, I took the 2 rear subframe bolts out completly and just lossened the front ones. (I was swapping a steering rack so I had to take the subframe down completly).
The old ones pop out easy with a screw driver. The new TT ones don't have to be pressed as they are to piece assambley.


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## Vr6Jamesgti (Apr 21, 2006)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (vanagone)*

You raise a very interesting idea about this. I have thought about it too. The 2 braces seem to work well with you. I though of doing something similair but also seam welding the sub frame. I noticed on the frame rail there are 2 large wholes. It looks like the sub frame can be redsigen to be larger and stiffer by make an attachment to reach theses wholes for more support. But then the ridgity of the frame rail and the stress that will be applied to new areas of the frame worries me a bit. Any ideas?


----------



## key888 (Jan 8, 2004)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (Vr6Jamesgti)*

i cant wait to hear how the tt bushings are! i am in the middle of a 24v swap(from a 2.0) and have the sub already out. When i pulled out the motor this weekend i noticed that all my motor mounts were beat. has anyone tried tt motor mounts? I dont mean to thread jack, so if you dont want to reply here please IM or reply here:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zeropost
thanks!


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (key888)*

Got some custom stuff and the regular TT stuff.
Just waiting for the adjustable camber plates to arrive here in sweden








3,5inch exhaust and a bucnh of other TT crap
*Bwtf does anybody know were that nylon or plastic schim in the middle of the pic goes for the vogtland cup kit ?*









_Modified by [email protected] at 9:54 AM 7-3-2007_


_Modified by [email protected] at 9:55 AM 7-3-2007_


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach ([email protected])*

Hi
Here is my STAGE V VR-T MK4 chassi.

1:TT-Rear bars are mounted with M10 Weld nu that is welded on oposite side = you need to remove frame to do this.
reason that i didnt just put normal nut is that the welde i put around the weld nut is strenghtning the entire outer chassi pice vs the bar.
I managed to do a very nice strong pice but didnt capture it on camera








2:TT-Rear bars Inner mounting point is acctually my front down pipe cross bar bracket.
I put 2 M10 weld nuts on it and just drille a hole thru existing bar.
So for other doing same mode you can use any bar as cross section for inne mounting points .
And i did an additional cross over bar .
Rear = TT
Middle = TT
Front = just some custom steel bar in correct type of material for tha job.

















3:
Here you can see my 3.5inch down pipe and bracket.
Its using oem exhaust mounts in front also









4:
Over view with 3.5 inch exhaust i buil last weekend.
Its acctually only 20lbs
























5:Stuff mounted on chassi
TT-Bushings used









6:
Vogtland springs mounted.
But the kit seem soft vs my H&R kit ?!?!?!!?















Need to do some street testing but gear box is out of the car so i cant test now .
Spring design is totaly differen vs the H&R kit.









7: changed rear bushings and did some touch up of rear axle.
Its 9 years old ya know
















8:Over view of my 312mm rear disc 
just did a custom bracket last year.
Will do read powder coat on R32 calipers both front and back later tthis year.











_Modified by [email protected] at 1:24 AM 7-8-2007_


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach ([email protected])*

Nice work foffa! Looks like you went all out with the subframes. How much weight did all the subframe stuff add? What motor mounts are you gonna use?
Those Vogtland springs do look rather weak (many coils) But some of those coils may be "dead coils". Take a picture with wheels on the ground and I bet you 3 or 4 coils will be touching each other.


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## chaugner (Jul 13, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach ([email protected])*

very nice on the rear sub braces. Did you consider cutting off the end on each of the rear braces so you are only left with one bolt. This way you may be able to keep it entirely on the sub frame and not go through the middle piece.
I am ordering the braces soon, gonna have to play around with it to see how best to fit them on there.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif awesome stuff


----------



## zak (Aug 27, 2004)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach ([email protected])*

Looks great--could one use a regular bolt and nut set-up and install the TT braces on the subframe while it's still on the car?


----------



## chaugner (Jul 13, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (zak)*

the front one you can install without too much effort, the rear ones are a little more tricky, if you just use the existing bolt from the exhaust hanger and drill the subframe and use a custom brace then you should be able to keep it on the car, if you are using the oem TT braces I would have to say off the car.
FYI here are some part numbers








*Rear*
*34* 8N7199401 x 2 (Sub Frame Brace Rear)
*35* N0195024 x 8 (Bolt)
*35* 8N0199399 x 8 (Nut)
*Front*
*30* 8N0199403B x 1 (Sub Frame Brace Front)
*31* N10467901 x 2 (Bolt)
*32* N90477301 x 2 (washer)
*33* N90914701 x 2 (cap nut)


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (phatvw)*

Hi
Toved the car home yesterday
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif it feels like a totaly new ride















Front design on springs is similar to H&R
Rear is not .









H&R rear design








Vogtland design (its settle 50% of spring and rest is rigid even though it looks this way)
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3195606
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif You can fit 255x45x17 or M/T 26x15* !!!!!!!!!!!!!
*Due to slimmer/higher bottom plate design on the VOGTLAND*








http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif* its f!¤#" higher then stock *




























Will it settle after couple of days ?
*AND HERE IS VW´s new " ca clunk " defender*I didnt use to to car is F!¤#% high as it is with these vogtlands
















One of my TT brackets are cut.
Har to see in the picture.
And i would recomend to remove subfram and weld on some M10 weld nuts and put som extra strenght weld around the mounting hole.
Its very weak were the TT brackets are mounted so it needs some additional work

And ill hope that my car will get lower with some driving time on em like this guy.
He had similar problem.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=1

And i will get 1/4th inch from the ground control plate when i mount it ?!?








And rear rubber top cab for rear springs will give me another 1/4th if i remove it










_Modified by [email protected] at 2:53 AM 7-9-2007_


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (chaugner)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chaugner* »_very nice on the rear sub braces. Did you consider cutting off the end on each of the rear braces so you are only left with one bolt. This way you may be able to keep it entirely on the sub frame and not go through the middle piece.
I am ordering the braces soon, gonna have to play around with it to see how best to fit them on there.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif awesome stuff


Hi
Its acctually no possible to do so.
The round piece hit the subframe before you can reach the holes








And if you cut both ends and get as much angle as possible you end up in a non ridig section of the sub frame.
But ill guess its not totally impossible depending on how you want to cut the bar.
post your pics when you get your solution done http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
//F


----------



## mikebridge (Aug 16, 2000)

could one just use the subframe out of a FWD TT or would that require more modification to fit onto a golf/jetta then bracing the stock subframe?


----------



## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (mikebridge)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mikebridge* »_could one just use the subframe out of a FWD TT or would that require more modification to fit onto a golf/jetta then bracing the stock subframe?

you go FIND a FWD TT subframe to try and install first!


----------



## mikebridge (Aug 16, 2000)

*Re: (7thGear)*


_Quote, originally posted by *7thGear* »_
you go FIND a FWD TT subframe to try and install first! 

are you inferring that the subframe can't be installed easily, or that the subframe is difficult to find, or that no one has tried & the community needs more information? and actually, from what i can see in the ETKA diagarams, the FWD and AWD use the same subframe, LCA, and spindles (but i could very well be overlooking something that is different between the 2), so the question could be broadened to swapping the stock MKiv subframe to any TT subframe, if they are similar enough


----------



## 7thGear (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (mikebridge)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mikebridge* »_are you inferring that the subframe can't be installed easily, or that the subframe is difficult to find, or that no one has tried & the community needs more information? 

the last 2..
and maybe the first









just a rant, all this subframe stiffening will only impact the reduction of alignment changes during deflection. the underlying problem with MK4's is the heavy weight and high(er) center of gravity compared to some of the other cars.


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (7thGear)*

My car has now been tracktested
New TT bushings + all custom braces n stuff were a great upgrade with new vogtland springs and shocks.
Did a custom "shine bar" for my rear axle.
And reflexgti helped me with ground control camber plates http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I love my car now. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Its like a ferrari vs the old H&R chassi.


----------



## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: ([email protected])*

impressive work and effort. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Vdubn_it (Sep 8, 2007)

*Re: (reflexgti)*

I drive a 2.0 Golf and i just recently checked my corner weight and CG at school. My car is lowered around 3 inches and have a O-Bar, Front lower tie bar, rear upper strut bar, and rear c pillar bar. The car weighed around 800 pounds at each front wheel and around 400 pounds at each rear wheel. the center of gravity was 23 inches high. That is right at the bottom of the side windows. For a tiny vehicle that CG is EXTREMELY high but as my teacher said all hatch backs share the same common problem. Our only thoughts were that because of all the glass it kicks it up. 
I also decided to use groftjas idea and modify it a little bit... The results are unbeleiveable the car is a whole new monster. i was able to rip around 25 mph twists at around 75 


























_Modified by Vdubn_it at 2:29 AM 11-11-2007_


----------



## groftja (Jul 19, 2004)

*Re: (Vdubn_it)*

Cool. That's better than mine! Good job. You too, foffa. Good subframe stiffening on the MK4 really does make a difference.


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (Vdubn_it)*

Yeah thats great! You want to make another??


----------



## Vdubn_it (Sep 8, 2007)

Id love to! i was thinking i would sell them for $40 + shipping with all the hardware needed to install them. These are fully welded and ready to go the only mod i had to do was dent in the cat a little bit to clear the rear support and drill the two holes... And omg the difference is astounding. Steering response is there when you need it, traction was improved, and the over all feel is just unbeleiveable


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Vdubn_it)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vdubn_it* »_Id love to! i was thinking i would sell them for $40 + shipping with all the hardware needed to install them. These are fully welded and ready to go the only mod i had to do was dent in the cat a little bit to clear the rear support and drill the two holes... And omg the difference is astounding. Steering response is there when you need it, traction was improved, and the over all feel is just unbeleiveable

Count me in for $40! I'd love to do a double-blind test out here in the rain! How much does it all weigh?
What are you gonna call it? The Vdubn_it subframe mod?
Might I suggest the following design for v2.0?
\----/\-----/
_\--/--\_ /
_-\/----\/
Should be a better stiffness:weight ratio from what I remember from Civil Engineering 101. The 90° angles probably don't really add a lot to the strength. Instead, everything should be triangulated. Check this out: http://www.jhu.edu/~virtlab/bridge/bridge.htm


_Modified by phatvw at 11:09 PM 11-12-2007_


----------



## Christopera (Nov 8, 2007)

*Re: (phatvw)*

And if you add anymore steel to the product it would lower your cg a bit.
Seriously though, I worked on the CG issue by removing the AC pump and kit. Then extended the alternator bracket, removed a large piece of the bracket where the alternator used to be, mounted the alternator where the AC pump was(with the necessary shiiming), and finally fitted the car with the proper size belt. It lowered my alternator a nice 6 inches in all. I gained atleast 3-5 HP from the loss of AC pump and about 25 pounds in total mass that was hanging in front of the wheels.
Not only did the car turn in faster, it was more stable mid corner and I gained some free ponies.
P.S. instead of AC i just drive faster.


----------



## Vdubn_it (Sep 8, 2007)

Sounds good to me lol ill start work on a few more this weekend. ill make 4 or 5 starting out and if demand goes up ill make alot more just write who all wants them... better yet tommorrow ill make a thread just for the sale for these thinge


----------



## chaugner (Jul 13, 2002)

*Re: (Vdubn_it)*

very nice, glad to see more making progress on this. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## tojones (May 6, 2006)

*Re: (chaugner)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Vdubn_it (Sep 8, 2007)

Over the weekend im going to try to make a few of the supports the way phatvw showed them so if anyone is intrested shoot me a PM... the more people wanting them the more ill make because im kinda strapped for money with college... also i will be working on a full subframe reinforcement kit which I hope will have LCA stiffeners, a mid-frams support, and a few other things that i can slap on


----------



## chaugner (Jul 13, 2002)

*Re: (Vdubn_it)*

would also be nice to know weight of the support braces we adding.


----------



## Vdubn_it (Sep 8, 2007)

This weekend ill get weights and everything needed


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (Vdubn_it)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vdubn_it* »_This weekend ill get weights and everything needed

Sounds good! Will it come with mounting screws and bolts? Or will those need to be sourced seperately?


----------



## Vdubn_it (Sep 8, 2007)

Im working on that right now i hope to be able to include bolts and all for $40 for the subfame bracket.


----------



## zak (Aug 27, 2004)

*Re: (Vdubn_it)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vdubn_it* »_Im working on that right now i hope to be able to include bolts and all for $40 for the subfame bracket.
You get my pm?


----------



## Vdubn_it (Sep 8, 2007)

For some reason vortex isnt letting me pm i can only IM any ideas why?


----------



## leperkuan (Oct 3, 2007)

*Re: (Vdubn_it)*

You know, when i pulled out my front subframe i did realize it was a flimsy piece of work. wonder why there is not an aftermarket tube fromt subframe?? someone could make some money here... i would love to see my car gain traction my mk3 handled better than my mk4 which was a suprise i expected more from the mk4 maybe after i do my own front sub frame mods i can change that statement but ill keep in mind my mk3 was bone stock
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif on seeing the obvious that was highly overlooked!


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (leperkuan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *leperkuan* »_You know, when i pulled out my front subframe i did realize it was a flimsy piece of work. wonder why there is not an aftermarket tube fromt subframe?? someone could make some money here... i would love to see my car gain traction my mk3 handled better than my mk4 which was a suprise i expected more from the mk4 maybe after i do my own front sub frame mods i can change that statement but ill keep in mind my mk3 was bone stock
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif on seeing the obvious that was highly overlooked!

Keep in mind the MkIII weighs 300+ pounds less than MkIV. Weight is the biggest factor in handling. The MkIV is much safer with better emissions control - thats what you get for all that extra weight.


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (Vdubn_it)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vdubn_it* »_For some reason vortex isnt letting me pm i can only IM any ideas why?

pop-up blocker probably?
In case you didnt get my PM, Count me in as well. You can check PMs also by going to your the 'My Profile' button and click the instant messenger link it will show you them all text based


_Modified by judoGTI at 2:24 PM 11-16-2007_


----------



## 2K_GLX (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
Count me in for $40! I'd love to do a double-blind test out here in the rain! How much does it all weigh?
What are you gonna call it? The Vdubn_it subframe mod?


I might be down for this as well. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I just discovered this thread and I was thinking of connecting the forward and rear points from the bracing that the OP fabricated, but Vdubn_it took it a step further with the center brace as well. Since the rear points already needed a 1/4" spacer, you might as well connect them with a 1/4" bar.
Edit: on a related note (maybe foffa can answer this if he still monitors this thread) does anyone know if the hardware for the front TT brace (under the dogbone) will fit into the holes in the MKIV subframe? I mean, can I order the Audi hardware and brace and bang in the threaded insert and install the brace with the Audi bolts?


_Modified by 2K_GLX at 11:02 AM 11-16-2007_


----------



## leperkuan (Oct 3, 2007)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
Keep in mind the MkIII weighs 300+ pounds less than MkIV. Weight is the biggest factor in handling. The MkIV is much safer with better emissions control - thats what you get for all that extra weight.

didnt add that factor in i guess i also had better tires.
i will be down for this if you plan on producing them when i get the funds, getting tight around christmas


----------



## Vdubn_it (Sep 8, 2007)

funds are kinda tight this weekend so if im not able to buy steel i will be next week and theyll be ready to ship on monday. Sorry for the delay my boss doesnt like to pay me much


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (2K_GLX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2K_GLX* »_
I might be down for this as well. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I just discovered this thread and I was thinking of connecting the forward and rear points from the bracing that the OP fabricated, but Vdubn_it took it a step further with the center brace as well. Since the rear points already needed a 1/4" spacer, you might as well connect them with a 1/4" bar.
Edit: on a related note (maybe foffa can answer this if he still monitors this thread) does anyone know if the hardware for the front TT brace (under the dogbone) will fit into the holes in the MKIV subframe? I mean, can I order the Audi hardware and brace and bang in the threaded insert and install the brace with the Audi bolts?

_Modified by 2K_GLX at 11:02 AM 11-16-2007_

Hi i used the TT stuff for my MKIV http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
But i really think that its the part under the dog bone that needs to be supportet.
The area behind that mounted to the chassi is already rigid
So try to put atlest 70-80% of the fokus on the front part.
I added both TT-bracket and a custom to the fron .
and then just the TT-rear brackets and a custom center piece to the rear.










_Modified by [email protected] at 3:08 AM 11-17-2007_


----------



## 2K_GLX (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Hi i used the TT stuff for my MKIV http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
But i really think that its the part under the dog bone that needs to be supportet.
The area behind that mounted to the chassi is already rigid
So try to put atlest 70-80% of the fokus on the front part.
I added both TT-bracket and a custom to the fron .
and then just the TT-rear brackets and a custom center piece to the rear.


So is the hardware circled in red the OEM Audi hardware with the part numbers listed in this thread?


----------



## dubweiser1 (Dec 23, 2001)

*Re: (leperkuan)*

vdubn_it count me in for 1 on my 2.0 mk4 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif send me an IM when you have one ready to ship!


----------



## Vdubn_it (Sep 8, 2007)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...54371
Heres my new thread... if you want one reply and theyll be on the way once i get cash!


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (Vdubn_it)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vdubn_it* »_http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...54371
Heres my new thread... if you want one reply and theyll be on the way once i get cash!

That link isnt the one you want posted, I Think you mean this one?
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3548425


----------



## rocco2gti (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: (judoGTI)*

Neither link is working.....







I want to know more about these, and probably buy one. Please make the links work




























http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif















http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif





















http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (2K_GLX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2K_GLX* »_
So is the hardware circled in red the OEM Audi hardware with the part numbers listed in this thread?









yes all oem parts in that circle http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
the front bracket is custom though


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## Vdubn_it (Sep 8, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

My next goal is to make something like this... but with 2 more bars and possibly sheetmetal on the bottom tieing it all together/skid plate


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## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (Vdubn_it)*

got mine in the mail today. Wont have a chance to install it until this weekend however.
Looks good, I'll let everyone know how it goes.


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## jink (Oct 8, 2005)

*Re: (Vdubn_it)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vdubn_it* »_My next goal is to make something like this... but with 2 more bars and possibly sheetmetal on the bottom tieing it all together/skid plate

Consider me first in line!








Look what I got today: http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif


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## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (jink)*

Here is mine, do you think the angle of my center bar is important? Yours looks like its at a 90 degree to the top and bottom bars where as mine is off at an angle. 
Im not familiar enough with suspension geometry to know if it will matter. Off the top of my head I think no, but I wanted to ask you guys?


----------



## GTItraveler (Apr 24, 2002)

*Re: (judoGTI)*

I can't imagine that the angle would make any difference. Please post your impressions after driving with it. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## macosxuser (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: (GTItraveler)*

I need to learn how to weld.


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## Vdubn_it (Sep 8, 2007)

the angle doesnt make a difference i was just runnin low on steel and fundage so i made the one more straight. I also wanted to get them shipped because i know how bad it sucks to have to wait for stuff lol. and im trying to launch my new company... i sold 4 of these things and only made $60.. The future bars ill be making will be around $70 a piece so if you guys want em PM me up and ill start making more!

_Modified by Vdubn_it at 9:38 PM 12-6-2007_


_Modified by Vdubn_it at 9:48 PM 12-6-2007_


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## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Installed*

Installed mine today. Fit perfectly. Just bolt the first two bolts to line up the holes to mark for your drill.
The only hard part I had was jacking the car up high enough to allow the drill a good angle for the holes. Other than that, it was a breeze.
I did have to repaint one side of mine because there was some tape left on the metal and when it was painted the tape then peeled off exposing raw metal. So I put some exterior spray paint I had laying around on it to prevent rust.
Some of the pics are blurry because I was tired of being under my damned car by this point. lol. basically front and back pics of it installed.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Hey remember how I suggested this alternate design:

_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
\----/\-----/
_\--/--\_ /
_-\/----\/


Well I think you can cut down the amount of metal and get 99% of the strength just based on where the loads are coming from. What about this:
\-----------/
_\-------_/
_-\------/
BTW I don't think I'm gonna do this mod cause there is like zero clearance with my 3" exhaust... Gonna have to double-check the measurements...


_Modified by phatvw at 1:04 PM 12-8-2007_


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## Vdubn_it (Sep 8, 2007)

ill try something like that on my next version. as for clearance i can throw in a few extra spacers if you need them. As for fitment though i run mine with the factory cat which is like 3.5 to 4 inches in diameter and i dont have any problems with it


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## 2K_GLX (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Hey remember how I suggested this alternate design:

Well I think you can cut down the amount of metal and get 99% of the strength just based on where the loads are coming from. What about this:
\-----------/
_\-------_/
_-\------/
BTW I don't think I'm gonna do this mod cause there is like zero clearance with my 3" exhaust... Gonna have to double-check the measurements...


Next time I get under my car, I'm gong to take measurements and make one like that ^^. I don't think the triangulation is necessary, and it may not fit well with the stock cat (I'm not gonna weld it so everything needs to be tied together with M8 bolts).
Oh and also make my own TT front brace with OEM hardware and extra aluminum left over from the rear brace. The OEM bar is >$90 from impex










_Modified by 2K_GLX at 9:53 PM 12-8-2007_


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## jink (Oct 8, 2005)

I installed the bar yesterday during a multitude of other repairs. The installation went smoothly.
Bolt the brace to the front points in the subframe:
























Drill the rear holes in the subframe. Make sure the drill is going STRAIGHT UP. The clearance on the passenger side is very very small. I messed this hole up ever so slightly and the nut would not thread onto the bolt. We had to take off the brace and enlarge the hole in the subframe.








Make sure the shavings are removed from the subframe/brace. This will cause rusting very very quickly. 








Add rear bolt, spacer, nut. Tighten nut down to the point you can't tighten any more. Not sure of the torque specs here, they were not listed in the directions. We just kept tightening until it wouldn't go anymore.


















_Modified by jink at 1:59 PM 12-9-2007_


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## 2K_GLX (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: (jink)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jink* »_I installed the bar yesterday during a multitude of other repairs. The installation went smoothly.


When you get a chance, let us know your driving/handling impressions http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## jink (Oct 8, 2005)

*Re: (2K_GLX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2K_GLX* »_
When you get a chance, let us know your driving/handling impressions http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I have a broken wheel bearing right now, waiting on shipment of a new spindle from ECS. http://youtube.com/watch?v=5khjK0y6PIw The bearing is preventing me from performing any spirited driving.
Once the wheel bearing is fixed I will report!


----------



## teddy1397 (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: (2K_GLX)*

Yeah I helped Jink with the maintanence he did yesterday. That thing went in great, aside from a few minor adjustments to one of the holes. The impression that I got from Jink post-drive was he was vastly impressed with the mod. I'll leave it at that, so he can give you a more personal opinion.
And holy roflcopter man, your sig is funny as gently caress.


_Modified by teddy1397 at 3:44 PM 12-9-2007_


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## Vdubn_it (Sep 8, 2007)

These things are still for sale ill make them as peopel demand them. Theyre gonna run $70 a piece with everything needed for installation. I have to raise the price because i olmost lost money on the other 4 bars i made

Now $70 shipped is for the bars made like jink and judos. I will charge $50 shipped for the bars like Phatvw designed for me.


_Modified by Vdubn_it at 8:15 PM 12-9-2007_


----------



## chaugner (Jul 13, 2002)

*Re: (Vdubn_it)*

I am probably gonna take one of your hands pretty soon


----------



## 2K_GLX (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: (Vdubn_it)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vdubn_it* »_These things are still for sale ill make them as peopel demand them. Theyre gonna run $70 a piece with everything needed for installation. I have to raise the price because i olmost lost money on the other 4 bars i made

Now $70 shipped is for the bars made like jink and judos. I will charge $50 shipped for the bars like Phatvw designed for me.


For $50 shipped, I might be down for the design phatvw posted. Since I was gonna make one like that myself, this would definitely save me some time.
Will the bars be the same thickness as those used on jink's and judos' braces?


_Modified by 2K_GLX at 6:25 PM 12-9-2007_


----------



## Vdubn_it (Sep 8, 2007)

Yup they will all be made iwth 1/4 by 3/4 steel


----------



## jink (Oct 8, 2005)

Vdubn_it: You are welcome to use the images I took during my installation. I took them so you would have some 'stock images' to persuade future customers.








This weekend I will have everything on my car sorted out! It's currently sitting in my driveway, I had to get a ride to work today.


----------



## jink (Oct 8, 2005)

*Re: (2K_GLX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2K_GLX* »_
Oh and also make my own TT front brace with OEM hardware and extra aluminum left over from the rear brace. *The OEM bar is >$90 from impex *

I just ordered the TT front brace, the bolts, nuts and washers from 1stvwparts:
Item: BOLT (N10467901)
Total: $1.34
Item: WASHER (N90477301)
Total: $0.24
Item: NUT (N90914701)
Total: $5.54
Item: SUPPORT (8N0199403B)
Total: $20.34
-----------------------------
*Items Total: $27.46 *


----------



## 2K_GLX (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: (jink)*

Make sure that the last part number is correct. I saw that too and I was very unsure of the last part since:
1. 1stvwparts claims not to supply audi parts anymore
2. the impex price is significantly more (like 3X more)
3. the dealership price is much higher as well
From 1stvwparts: Supercession Information 
Part number 8N0199403b was superceded by part number 8D0199401A.
But impex lists the part 8N0199403b at $84.03 with no supercession info.
And part 8D0199401A is $26.39 with a different impex SKU#








Also, you need two each of the bolts, washers, and rivnuts.
I think the "support" (8D0199401A) is not the correct part, but if it is, post back and let me know, b/c I will order it too!










_Modified by 2K_GLX at 10:17 AM 12-11-2007_


----------



## jink (Oct 8, 2005)

*Re: (2K_GLX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2K_GLX* »_Also, you need two each of the bolts, washers, and rivnuts.
I think the "support" (8D0199401A) is not the correct part, but if it is, post back and let me know, b/c I will order it too!









I have two of the bolts, washers, and nuts. I'll let you know if the brace is correct.
1stvwparts doesn't carry Audi parts, they are shipping this part in from another location.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (jink)*

Audi TT subframe brace: $41:
http://www.tdiparts.com/catalo...d=581


----------



## 2K_GLX (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Audi TT subframe brace: $41:
http://www.tdiparts.com/catalo...d=581


Thanks! Between this and jink's order, I won't have to DIY this brace afterall!
Also, what about making a rear brace like this:
\-----------/
_\_______/
but with one diagonal brace connecting one corner to the other. This should stiffen the brace against twisting, without adding too much extra material. You may have to use longer bolts on those two corners, though.
The only question is whether it will clear the cat










_Modified by 2K_GLX at 11:06 AM 12-11-2007_


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (2K_GLX)*

Yeah I thought of that - an X-brace instead of the trapezoid. I don't think it would be worthwhile to do a trapezoid AND an X-brace... One or the other.
In any case I'm having vdubn_it build me a basic trapezoid version - no cross in the middle - should make it easier to fit with my big-ass exhaust/cat and should 30% lighter than the pictured units.


_Modified by phatvw at 11:39 AM 12-11-2007_


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## 2K_GLX (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Yeah I thought of that - an X-brace instead of the trapezoid. I don't think it would be worthwhile to do a trapezoid AND an X-brace... One or the other.
In any case I'm having vdubn_it build me a basic trapezoid version - no cross in the middle - should make it easier to fit with my big-ass exhaust/cat and should 30% lighter than the pictured units.


When you get it, let me know how well it resists twisting. I think this is the design I'm going to have vdubn_it make for me as well.
I guess since the metal is pretty thick, it shouldn't twist much at all even under cornering.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (2K_GLX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2K_GLX* »_
When you get it, let me know how well it resists twisting. I think this is the design I'm going to have vdubn_it make for me as well.
I guess since the metal is pretty thick, it shouldn't twist much at all even under cornering.

It will still twist, but will twist less than the OEM subframe on its own for sure!


----------



## Vdubn_it (Sep 8, 2007)

Just so you all know i raised the price on the braces with the plus signs because they were a beta test and i lost my ass on material lol. I dont want anyone to think im trying to rip you off these are supposed to be affordable mods and im tryin to get my company up and running


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## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Audi TT subframe brace: $41:
http://www.tdiparts.com/catalo...d=581


Is this the one that goes under the dogbone?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (judoGTI)*

I think so.


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## 2K_GLX (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: (judoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *judoGTI* »_
Is this the one that goes under the dogbone?









Yep that's the one. I think the one in the link doesn't include the hardware necessary to install, but I would call first to confirm. The subframe comes with holes in it to fit the nutserts, which are threaded for the bolts.
Here's a thread with all the part numbers: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1675135


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (2K_GLX)*

And here:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2527106


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (Vdubn_it)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vdubn_it* »_Yup they will all be made iwth 1/4 by 3/4 steel

I was thinking after I installed this, I probably should of thread-loc'd these eh?


----------



## 2K_GLX (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: (judoGTI)*

I would say use blue lock tight just to be safe. Next time you get under your car, just see if they are still tight. 
It would be nice for the rest of us to know how often we should be checking the bolts.


----------



## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

*Re: (2K_GLX)*

Here is my contribution to this thread:
Yes I know... I'm not a professional welder but I think it will be fine and for sure it will better than bolted.
http://i11.photobucket.com/alb...4.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/alb...7.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/alb...8.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/alb...5.jpg
This is polyurethane foam
http://i11.photobucket.com/alb...1.jpg


----------



## GTItraveler (Apr 24, 2002)

*Re: (NeverGiveUp)*

Can we get an update on the performance of this modification? Has anyone been out to push their car after the install? TIA http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 2K_GLX (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: (NeverGiveUp)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NeverGiveUp* »_Here is my contribution to this thread:
Yes I know... I'm not a professional welder but I think it will be fine and for sure it will better than bolted.
http://i11.photobucket.com/alb...4.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/alb...7.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/alb...8.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/alb...5.jpg
This is polyurethane foam
http://i11.photobucket.com/alb...1.jpg

Nice job! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
I really like the idea of filling the subframe with expandable foam.
So WTH did you use to adhere the braces to the subframe








How did all of that bracing and stiffening affect the ride? Do you notice a difference in ride comfort? Is the handling noticeably improved? 


_Modified by 2K_GLX at 5:37 PM 12-11-2007_


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (GTItraveler)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTItraveler* »_Can we get an update on the performance of this modification? Has anyone been out to push their car after the install? TIA http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Its a definite improvement, I dont drive my car hard or at the the track, but just zipping around town it handles way better, and makes for a better driving experience. I recommend it.


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (NeverGiveUp)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NeverGiveUp* »_Here is my contribution to this thread:
Yes I know... I'm not a professional welder but I think it will be fine and for sure it will better than bolted.
http://i11.photobucket.com/alb...4.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/alb...7.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/alb...8.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/alb...5.jpg
This is polyurethane foam
http://i11.photobucket.com/alb...1.jpg

Have you installed that in the car yet? Im curious because the one support looks REALLY close to that dogbone. I wont if it will bang around while driving? I think we might need a bend there just to be sure?


----------



## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

*Re: (2K_GLX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2K_GLX* »_
Nice job! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
I really like the idea of filling the subframe with expandable foam.
So WTH did you use to adhere the braces to the subframe








How did all of that bracing and stiffening affect the ride? Do you notice a difference in ride comfort? Is the handling noticeably improved? 

_Modified by 2K_GLX at 5:37 PM 12-11-2007_

The braces are welded with my little MIG. This subframe is not installed on the car yet (I'm waiting fro my new bilstein PSS9 and camber kit to do the install)


----------



## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

*Re: (judoGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *judoGTI* »_
Have you installed that in the car yet? Im curious because the one support looks REALLY close to that dogbone. I wont if it will bang around while driving? I think we might need a bend there just to be sure?

I used a hammer to flatten this brace where the dogbone is and there is approxiamtively 5mm. I will see if it knocks or not.
If it knocks I will reverse the dogbone as there is more space on the other side.


----------



## Vr6Jamesgti (Apr 21, 2006)

*Re: (jink)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jink* »_
Consider me first in line!








Look what I got today: http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif 










The welds on those look really sloppy, Looks like its mig and the gun went a little crazy. I think the design flaw would be that the metal braces are made out of flat steel. I would think it would still flex witht he sub frame. Im sure it helps but I see improvement upon it. I would think a a tublar design would probably be a bit stronger and less prone to flex as a flat peice of steel would. 


_Modified by Vr6Jamesgti at 7:43 AM 12-13-2007_


----------



## judoGTI (Mar 5, 2002)

*Re: (Vr6Jamesgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Vr6Jamesgti* »_

The welds on those look really sloppy, Looks like its mig and the gun went a little crazy. I think the design flaw would be that the metal braces are made out of flat steel. I would think it would still flex witht he sub frame. Im sure it helps but I see improvement upon it. I would think a a tublar design would probably be a bit stronger and less prone to flex as a flat peice of steel would. 

_Modified by Vr6Jamesgti at 7:43 AM 12-13-2007_

Doesnt matter as the welds arent even really necessary with this mod. The bolts provide the necessary connection to stiffen the subframe. The welding is extra.


----------



## mroberto (Jul 16, 2006)

*Re: (NeverGiveUp)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NeverGiveUp* »_This is polyurethane foam
http://i11.photobucket.com/alb...1.jpg

What is the benefit of filling the subframe with expandable foam?


----------



## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

*Re: (mroberto)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mroberto* »_
What is the benefit of filling the subframe with expandable foam?

Maybe less flex... It's psychological to me.


----------



## mroberto (Jul 16, 2006)

*Re: (NeverGiveUp)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NeverGiveUp* »_
Maybe less flex... It's psychological to me.









Would the foam or the act of stiffening the subframe reduce any of the infamous cabin squeaks or rattles? I read one post where the "dash clunk" was reduced somewhat. My car likes to make lots of noise when one frontn wheel goes over a bump or even both front wheels go over a bump at the same time.
Does anyone else have any experience with less rattles due to a stiffer subframe?


----------



## NeverGiveUp (Jan 6, 2004)

*Re: (mroberto)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mroberto* »_
Would the foam or the act of stiffening the subframe reduce any of the infamous cabin squeaks or rattles? I read one post where the "dash clunk" was reduced somewhat. My car likes to make lots of noise when one frontn wheel goes over a bump or even both front wheels go over a bump at the same time.
Does anyone else have any experience with less rattles due to a stiffer subframe?

I don't know. To be honest I don't care about the noise on this car.


----------



## 2K_GLX (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: (jink)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jink* »_
I just ordered the TT front brace, the bolts, nuts and washers from 1stvwparts:


Jink, did you get these parts yet? Are the part numbers correct?


----------



## jink (Oct 8, 2005)

*Re: (2K_GLX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2K_GLX* »_jnk, did you get these parts yet? Are the part numbers correct?









Wrong part number.


----------



## 2K_GLX (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: (jink)*


_Quote, originally posted by *jink* »_

Wrong part number.








 
Well at least tdiparts has the right one http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Sutt (Jun 28, 1999)

*Re: (2K_GLX)*

Foffa or anyone that I hope reads this older thread, 
Why weld a bar in front of the TT "lower stress" bar on the subframe? I am talking about the part Foffa and someone else welded on the engine side of the subframe. 
Also, where does a lower stress bar attach on the car, subframe?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Sutt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sutt* »_Foffa or anyone that I hope reads this older thread, 
Why weld a bar in front of the TT "lower stress" bar on the subframe? I am talking about the part Foffa and someone else welded on the engine side of the subframe. 
Also, where does a lower stress bar attach on the car, subframe? 

The aftermarket tie-bars from Autotech, Eurosport, OMP etc. mount to the front-position lower control arm bolts.
Why put two bars? If both bars are flat instead of tubular, then putting one in the vertical plane and one in the horizontal plane will have a similar structural effect as an I-beam, so in theory the whole subframe will resist twisting loads better. With all these extra bars the law of diminishing returns applies - you have to be the judge on how much weight you want to add..


_Modified by phatvw at 3:44 PM 1-15-2008_


----------



## Sutt (Jun 28, 1999)

*Re: (phatvw)*

So does this work for both planes? It looks tubular so that is why I am asking. 








taken from page 5 but I think you know that. 
and thanks for the explanation phatvw


_Modified by Sutt at 9:30 AM 1-16-2008_


----------



## alleghenyman (Nov 20, 2003)

*Re: (Sutt)*

Just curious whether anyone has compared performance with a lower subframe brace alone to performance with a lower and upper brace?
I am installing a WRD lower strut bar that runs between the control arm bolts and wonder whether gains with an upper strut bar will be worth it. I live in the rust belt and I'm reluctant to drill extra holes in my car. Also, the top bar I got is a little cheesy so I'm not sure how strong it is.


----------



## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

*Re: (alleghenyman)*

curious, i just looked on ecstuning and cant find the audi TT control arm bushings?
can anyone verify where they bought them? and maybe about how much?
cheers!


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (gti_1_eight_T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gti_1_eight_T* »_curious, i just looked on ecstuning and cant find the audi TT control arm bushings?
can anyone verify where they bought them? and maybe about how much?
cheers!
 
Here is a good source from a vortex vendor .







Bob.G

http://www.mjmautohaus.com/cat...d=869


----------



## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
Here is a good source from a vortex vendor .







Bob.G

http://www.mjmautohaus.com/cat...d=869


cheers!
but what was the deal w/the ones earlier in the thread that were 2 peice?


----------



## 2K_GLX (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: (gti_1_eight_T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *gti_1_eight_T* »_
cheers!
but what was the deal w/the ones earlier in the thread that were 2 peice?

The two-piece ones posted earlier in the thread are subframe bushings, not control arm.


----------



## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

*Re: (2K_GLX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2K_GLX* »_
The two-piece ones posted earlier in the thread are subframe bushings, not control arm.


pm sent! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vwbias (Jul 19, 2006)

Looking for a source for those TT subframe bushings those things look great. Any help?


----------



## fouckhest (May 22, 2003)

*Re: (vwbias)*

1stvwparts
found them on there today....same part#s as mentioned in pg1...i believe ~$27 each....so little over $100 for set


----------



## vwbias (Jul 19, 2006)

awesome thanks


----------



## VR (Jul 2, 2001)

*Re: (vwbias)*

what was the final result in the search for the audi TT subframe brace part number? very curious. I already have all the TT/R32 control arm bushings and it did make a good inprovement but I still have understeer even with a lower tie bar and BFI mounts ect. I think my FSB is a little to large also though.


----------



## 2K_GLX (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: (VR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR* »_what was the final result in the search for the audi TT subframe brace part number? very curious. I already have all the TT/R32 control arm bushings and it did make a good inprovement but I still have understeer even with a lower tie bar and BFI mounts ect. I think my FSB is a little to large also though.

8N0 199 282C - UPPER
8N0 199 282D - LOWER
You need two of each.


_Modified by 2K_GLX at 5:35 AM 1-23-2008_


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## vwbias (Jul 19, 2006)

Very good thread, who has those TT sub frame bushings installed? how did the car respond to it, 100 dollars is a lot for bushings, however, if they produce good results than it would be worth the investment. Any feedback?


----------



## Papacriss (Apr 11, 2006)

*Re: (samcat67)*








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Papacriss)*

So I finally got around to installing my brace. Ran into a couple issues.
First, either my car is a freak of VW Brazillian assembly or was damaged in an accident, because my subframe doesn't measure up to anything. The measurements compared to every other MkIV subframe is totally different - its like I have an extra 10mm of front track compared to other cars?????
Anyway so vdubn_it's brace did not fit. Talked to him about it and came up with some ideas to adapt it. Went to lowes got a bunch of stuff including a nice hi-speed Hitachi drill bit (21/64")
Went to drill and I totally ****ed up my subframe. I didn't drill through a boxed-in template and the drill bit wandered. So now I can't install any brace and I've compromised the structure of my subframe a little bit.

Vdubn_it's product is good, I'm just a dumbass and very embarassed.

























_Modified by phatvw at 4:52 PM 2-24-2008_


----------



## zak (Aug 27, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

That sucks--and a good reason to use a punch to mark where you want to drill your hole AND to drill a smaller pilot hole first.
I was considering buying this brace before, but I've decided to beef up the forward part first--with a stress bar or the TT piece (or maybe both) and then go to the TT rear bushings.
Anyway, sounds like your subframe was compromised to start, so maybe all this will work out for the best--but new subframes aren't cheap. $290 at 1stvwparts.com. There's gotta be some good used ones in junkyards, though.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (zak)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zak* »_That sucks--and a good reason to use a punch to mark where you want to drill your hole AND to drill a smaller pilot hole first.
I was considering buying this brace before, but I've decided to beef up the forward part first--with a stress bar or the TT piece (or maybe both) and then go to the TT rear bushings.
Anyway, sounds like your subframe was compromised to start, so maybe all this will work out for the best--but new subframes aren't cheap. $290 at 1stvwparts.com. There's gotta be some good used ones in junkyards, though.


When I turn this into a track-only vehicle, I'll build up a new subframe with welded bracing and such - TT bushings as well. Maybe even a full roll-cage too. But its still a daily driver, so I'm not going there yet.


----------



## chaugner (Jul 13, 2002)

*Re: (Sutt)*

Another one .... getting it sandblasted and then repainted soon.


----------



## AK TUNING (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: (Vr6Jamesgti)*

How heavy is that brace?


----------



## TDIstudent (Jun 14, 2008)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (Banditt007)*

Hey Banditt007:
I went to dieselgeek and the only thing that I found to stiffen the chassis was the full metal skid plate. Do you know if dieselgeek has more stuff to stiffen the subframes? I am in the planning stages of setting up a jetta tdi.
Thanks,


----------



## chaugner (Jul 13, 2002)

*Re: MkIV Handling- a different approach (TDIstudent)*









all done and powder coated .... finally, seems everything for me is taking months








FYI pics don;t do the color justice. Dark room and flash don;t mix well


----------



## Satummoo (Oct 20, 2004)

*Re: (2K_GLX)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2K_GLX* »_









Is there any drilling needed for the parts in red? I know TDI parts carry's the bar.
Also, are the two diaganal bars OEM audi TT bars? when reading the thread twice, it seemed like it was the case but It wasn't confirmed weather or not it required drilling


----------



## VeeJ (Jul 2, 2007)

No. But you will need a rivet gun because there are just two empty holes in those locations and the hardware comes with some rivet nuts. I had a friend do it in his shop, and he just told me that he needed a rivet gun for the parts that are meant to go along with it.


----------



## EuroTrash88 (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: (rono1)*

watching


----------



## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: (EuroTrash88)*

i'm thinking of doing something towards this for a independent credit at my college..
maybe like a solidworks designed brace for the subframe, then getting one machined and testing it out.
even if it's a complete failure, i'll get a credit for it because it's a real life situation and project...and i'll be helping this cause out by attempting some r+d http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## cndracer25 (Mar 19, 2009)

*Re: (L.I. Dan)*

would something like this help these car or is this part of the chassis stiff enough. home made job but gives you an idea of what i'm talking about










_Modified by cndracer25 at 12:53 AM 11-20-2009_


----------



## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: (cndracer25)*

so.... i've found myself a spare subframe for 35 bones.
time to take some measurements, and i'm going to spend some time on solidworks to design a nice brace, then bring it to life.
i will be using the TT subframe bushings as well, as they're a no-brainer upgrade
Then comes some before and after testing to see the real world improvements, on a racetrack.
This will be completely documented as it will be doubling as an "Independent Study" Credit at my university towards my Industrial Design degree 
2 birds with 1 stone


----------



## RichB (Jun 7, 2003)

*Re: (L.I. Dan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *L.I. Dan* »_so.... i've found myself a spare subframe for 35 bones.
time to take some measurements, and i'm going to spend some time on solidworks to design a nice brace, then bring it to life.
i will be using the TT subframe bushings as well, as they're a no-brainer upgrade
Then comes some before and after testing to see the real world improvements, on a racetrack.
This will be completely documented as it will be doubling as an "Independent Study" Credit at my university towards my Industrial Design degree 
2 birds with 1 stone









Sounds like a awesome project... Start a thread and update it with your progress (pics) and results!


----------



## bootymac (Apr 19, 2005)

Bumping this up because the archives are back online! I was able to use this thread and make my own subframe bracing out of angle bars. I replicated the horizontal TT brace and made two diagonal braces in the rear of the subframe. Unfortunately I wasn't able to make a horizontal brace in the rear as my catalytic converter was in the way. I'm not too concerned about ground clearance but I'm keeping an eye on things.

I wasn't expecting much when I installed the braces, but I couldn't believe how much of a difference they made. Steering feels tighter and more responsive, while turn in is sharper with less bodyroll. Overall stability is improved and the car feels more solid in the corners and on the highway. 

Another interesting side effect I noticed was that downshifting was easier and smoother, similar to the same benefits of stiffer dog-bone bushings. I guess the reinforced subframe help with engine movement as well.

I still can't believe how much of a difference these braces made, but the angle bars might have had a larger impact as they're significantly stiffer than flat stock.

To put things into context, my GTI already has:
- H&R Race springs w/ Bilstein Sport dampers
- Neuspeed 25mm front sway bar
- Neuspeed 28mm rear sway bar
- Audi TT LCA rear bushings
- Energy Suspension 70a dog-bone bushings


----------



## RichB (Jun 7, 2003)

:thumbup:

Would be interested to see some pics of what you did!


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

An LCA brace will also make big difference; tying the front pivot points together will help your turn-in significantly. Try some TT/R subframe bushings as well.

My car, thanks to this thread and the wealth of other information in the archives, is excellent on track and autocross. I do need to make a few aerodynamic improvements as reverse rake does wonders for weight distribution, not so much for grip in higher speed turns.

R/TT spindles and control arms
R/TT subframe bushings
H2Sport LCA spherical bearings
Koni Yellows
GroundControl sleeve kit with 400 front 350 rear
GroundControl camber plates
LCA brace
Unibrace
no front sway
neuspeed rear sway

Thank you to the gearheads that put all this together!


----------



## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

What differences did you notice from the R/TT Subframe bushings?


----------



## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

Made for a faster turn-in, and a much more solid feel. The stock bushings are mostly rubber, and allow quite a bit of flex, the TT/R bushings have a thin layer of rubber, and are mostly aluminum.


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## bootymac (Apr 19, 2005)

KG18t said:


> An LCA brace will also make big difference; tying the front pivot points together will help your turn-in significantly. Try some TT/R subframe bushings as well.


Are you referring to a lower stress bar? Which bar do you have? I don't think I can make a bar that will clear the dogbone mount so I've been trying to get my hands on one without heim joints.

I'd love to try the TT subframe bushings but they're not cheap! The last time I checked, it was $180 for both sides


----------



## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

That and you have to replace all the subframe bolts 

Autotech. It's a good solid bar.

http://www.autotech.com/prod_susp_stress.htm


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## bootymac (Apr 19, 2005)

Any feedback on the Unibrace? That looks like another solid piece to have


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

It is. Although I don't think anyone's done any real analysis on it... probably the only rear brace that actually does anything useful, although there's one other 4 point that I can't remember the name of at the moment. The chassis stiffness is very noticeable after installation, for instance, you can still open and close doors with no binding when you've got one side of the car jacked up. In terms of on track, I'd have to unbolt one side to give you any decent comparison. I can't remember what the car felt like before or bit by bit, and my only comparison is a bone stock GTI that's my daily. The last bit I plan on doing with bushings is spherical bearings for the rear beam... which is really all that's left that I can do underneath without serious custom work.


----------



## hop-up (Oct 1, 2005)

*Re: Lieutenant Dan*

It's been about 9 months. 

Anyone heard from the good Lieutenant and his SolidWorks project?  

He must have some little light weight CAD machined aluminum carved out beauty by now?? :thumbup: 

Photos?? Progress?? :beer:


----------



## Henni (May 14, 2003)

Love this thread. Lots of good info.


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## mitsui-g (Jul 23, 2003)

I just finished my set of braces( same ideas as the other, but I used Stainless Steel instead), I will post pics of the braces later. Now is the time to drill the wholes in the subframe, does anybody know the correct size of drill bits to use? Should I use steel drill bits or any other reocmmendations?


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

Any joint there would be a very high stress point... What gauge/width are you using? A minimum of grade 8 bolt(s) with tight tolerance drilling, and/or welding the joint would be needed. The problem with just flats is... well, the issues that are addressed with the square beam on the unibrace.


----------



## silver_arrow_jetta (Jul 30, 2004)

for the mk4s owners out there, in case you are looking for tt spindles and control arms, i got a set. let me know:thumbup: looking to install the braces soon. Wondering if a tt r23 wouldn't be a better idea other them drilling on the stock mk4 rack


----------



## 03 jetta GLI (Sep 27, 2006)

sabredylan said:


> Yes they are 2 piece, compared to the one piece standard bush. They are solid and won't move. You'll need a new subframe bolt, as it has a bigger washer and they are stretch bolts anyway. The part numbers I used are:-
> 8N0 199 282C - UPPER BUSH (X2)
> 8N0 199 282D - LOWER BUSH (X2)
> N 907 528 01 - SUBFRAME STRETCH BOLT WITH BIGGER WASHER (X2)
> I think part numbers are the same worldwide, but please check before you buy.


The sum of these parts > $200. Wtf :what:
A little high for some bushings I'd say!

I hate to say Poly, but are there any alternatives? 

Poly would probably be fine here as that TT mount looks rather stiff.


----------



## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

03 jetta GLI said:


> The sum of these parts > $200. Wtf :what:
> A little high for some bushings I'd say!
> 
> I hate to say Poly, but are there any alternatives?
> ...


The real perk is that these bushings are more solid than the OE bushing, ie there is more metal content in this one vs the OE MKIV application. Poly would be a fine alternative, however I question if it is as stiff as the TT bushing which is primarily metal w/ a rubber film around it. Another alternative would be Delrin. In this position, ie a static mount it would be perfectly acceptable and would be similar to running a metal insert. It would also be significantly cheaper than the OE TT parts. All you would need to do is get dimensions and have it machined. To prevent the bolt from allowing the subframe to slip on the Delrin, it might be a better idea to drill the bolt hole the same size as the bolt. An offset bushing to fix the caster at the maximum caster gain position would be optimal.


----------



## FigureFive (Dec 21, 2003)

For anyone serious about the the handling of their MkIV I've got a set of lightly used H2Sport drop spindles for sale. These are ready made for a MkIV Golf or Jetta to fix the suspension geometry when lowered. Follow the link in my sig.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

hop-up said:


> It's been about 9 months.
> 
> Anyone heard from the good Lieutenant and his SolidWorks project?
> 
> ...


IDK if there was some deeper sarcastic meaning to this, as in you think it'll never get done, but believe me it will.

I'm doing this when i'm free from college and work, and using my own daily driver for R+D. So you have to obviously realize that it's tough to bang it out real fast.

Prototyping is going to happen really soon.


----------



## Kiyokix (Dec 16, 2005)

I'm anxiously awaiting your work too good sir (not sarcastic in any way), this thread is awesome and gave me hope that there are still serious car people out there with proper tires on their cars. 

All good things take time, especially when you're using your own daily driver to do them on. You can't just 'try' something...cuz then you might be screwed without vehicle which is usually a bad thing lol.

Kei


----------



## bradmb (May 2, 2006)

Lieutenant Dan said:


> i'm thinking of doing something towards this for a independent credit at my college..
> maybe like a solidworks designed brace for the subframe, then getting one machined and testing it out.
> even if it's a complete failure, i'll get a credit for it because it's a real life situation and project...and i'll be helping this cause out by attempting some r+d http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


to effectively design a subframe brace in solidworks you would need to solidmodel the oem subframe. which would be a PITA. or, you can just measure the mounting points and design it around that. if you go that route you are essentially just making a piece to add on, you wont be able to use FEA effectively. 

if you do make one though, send me the file. 

In fact, if anybody has the suspension geometry mounting points for the mk4, send them to me and Ill put them in ADAMS and show you guys how our suspension really works. Ill even do it for a lowered car.


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## VW2.0NY (Sep 16, 2003)

Solid subframe bushings for Mk4

http://www.tyrolsport.com/index.php?p=product&id=241&parent=70


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## bootymac (Apr 19, 2005)

VW2.0NY said:


> Solid subframe bushings for Mk4
> 
> http://www.tyrolsport.com/index.php?p=product&id=241&parent=70


 Nice find. Has anyone tried these yet?


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## 02VWGTIVR6 (Jan 31, 2002)

bootymac said:


> Nice find. Has anyone tried these yet?


i am going to tyrolsport next week to have them install a set. i will post some info.


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## climiefish (Mar 16, 2007)

02VWGTIVR6 said:


> i am going to tyrolsport next week to have them install a set. i will post some info.


In for the info:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Col-Buddy-Greenleaf (Jun 27, 2007)

I'm not sure I get the point of "solid" subframe bushing vs an R32 stiffer subframe bushing when there is so much flex in the stock subframe. I guess if your car is not a daily driver, just for racing, then every bit of stiffness helps.


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

Col-Buddy-Greenleaf said:


> I'm not sure I get the point of "solid" subframe bushing vs an R32 stiffer subframe bushing when there is so much flex in the stock subframe. I guess if your car is not a daily driver, just for racing, then every bit of stiffness helps.


 Well, other than being significantly cheaper than R bushings... The point is to reduce the flex of the subframe, and increasing steering responsiveness. Part of the excessive flex in the subframe is due to the stock rear bushings.


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## bootymac (Apr 19, 2005)

I saw this DIY lower tie bar and figured it should work on our vehicles to complement the subframe brace:










Thoughts? Doesn't look too shabby for


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

bootymac said:


> I saw this DIY lower tie bar and figured it should work on our vehicles to complement the subframe brace:
> 
> Thoughts? Doesn't look too shabby for


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## bootymac (Apr 19, 2005)

KG18t said:


> Not a bad idea, but if that is indeed EMT (which I think it would have to be to crush like that)... you're looking at pretty flimsy stuff (especially at the crush points on the ends). Yes, it's $20, but I think this is one of those times when you're going to get $20 performance out of it.


I definitely disagree with the material he used for the brace as well. An angle bar (same as what I already used for my subframe brace) could be substituted without incurring any additional costs, and it should be substantially stiffer.


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## chilll14me (May 31, 2009)

guys worried about flat stock bowing in the middle...how about using 3/16" 6061 aluminum and drilling holes and stamping with dimple dies. that adds a lot of strength in a part. would be ultra light, and stronger than 1/4 steel flat stock.


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## 02VWGTIVR6 (Jan 31, 2002)

climiefish said:


> In for the info:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


i posted this in another thread:

i had tyrolsport install a set for me about 2 weeks ago. so far the biggest thing i noticed is that the car does not vibrate any more than stock, and it definitely has better road feel through the steering. before when the car started understeering, it would take me a second to feel the scrub through the steering wheel. now i feel what the tires are doing right away. i don't know if this is supposed to be a benefit to the bushing, but i am very happy with the improvement. 

to add to that, now that the roads are clear, it definitely is a noticeable improvement in feel. hard to describe exactly, but mostly in steering. when i drive my friends porsche cayman, i always love how good the steering feels. now the steering in my mk4 is much better. still no porsche though.


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## bootymac (Apr 19, 2005)

02VWGTIVR6 said:


> i posted this in another thread:
> 
> i had tyrolsport install a set for me about 2 weeks ago. so far the biggest thing i noticed is that the car does not vibrate any more than stock, and it definitely has better road feel through the steering. before when the car started understeering, it would take me a second to feel the scrub through the steering wheel. now i feel what the tires are doing right away. i don't know if this is supposed to be a benefit to the bushing, but i am very happy with the improvement.
> 
> to add to that, now that the roads are clear, it definitely is a noticeable improvement in feel. hard to describe exactly, but mostly in steering. when i drive my friends porsche cayman, i always love how good the steering feels. now the steering in my mk4 is much better. still no porsche though.


Thanks for sharing. The Tyrolsport bushings are a great alternative to the TT bushings!


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## saltymkiv (Jan 13, 2009)

updatez?


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

saltymkiv said:


> updatez?


 What updates? There's plenty of information in here. What do you want updates on?


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## saltymkiv (Jan 13, 2009)

KG18t said:


> What updates? There's plenty of information in here. What do you want updates on?


 Sorry for my lack of clarification. I was inquiring about Lieutenant Dan's solidworks project :beer:


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## boraspecvr6 (Jun 17, 2005)

*MKIV subframe measurements*

an anyone get me exact dimensions from of the MKIV jetta subframe stock mounting points. From the center of the bushings , as detailed as possible. I saw this thread and it was very interesting. Im a third year mechanical engineering student. I have a lot of background with cars. 
Especially vw. Im looking to do something car related for my senior ME design class. Im looking to do some chassis brace setups. I have too many tools at my disposal from school. 

Once a mock up of the set up is done, i can do a stress analysis test on the chassis brace. What that can help me do is make the design better to reduce stress and fatigue. Im part of the SAE Baja club in school. We're building a new frame based on my design. SO if anyone can help with any dimensions, please let me know, if you want to had sketch that would be even better/. 

I drive an MKIV jetta dailey, whihc is why I cant pull my subframe down. I dont have the room either to do measurements. Thanks.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

saltymkiv said:


> Sorry for my lack of clarification. I was inquiring about Lieutenant Dan's solidworks project :beer:


Nothing yet  Things are a bit complicated since the last time i've posted about this project. It's still in the works but there's a long ways ahead of me and I can't get my hands on it for a while :beer:


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Thought I would bump this to show a new finding in the subframe and chassis bracing department.

It's about $150 from what I've been gathering. Worth a try?


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## bootymac (Apr 19, 2005)

I've always wanted to try the UR braces, but they seem to reduce ground clearance by a lot


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## GOT R32? (May 24, 2011)

*Does any of this apply to the R32?*

I just spent a lot of time reading through this thread, and it brings up some questions. Does any one have any experience with the UR braces? Also would the brace fit a MkIV R32? It would make sense since the subframe is the same and it hangs under the subframe so no drive shaft interference. Is the TT Roadster bushings any better or worse than the R32 bushings? Aftermarket? Groftja and Vdubn_it both had there own braces, and once a gain would it fit an R32 and will it make a difference? 

My set up is Neuspeed Racing Rear Anti Sway Bar (25 mm), HPA Rear Stress Bar, VF Engineering Motor Mounts, Neuspeed Short Shifter, and HPA Competition Haldex Controller. I'm getting a KILLER deal on Tien Super Street Coilovers, and 15 pound Volk Racing wheels. Does anyone have experience with Tien suspensions on a VW? 

When I get the suspension I also plan on getting Neuspeed: Front Anti Sway Bar, Lower Tie Bar, Upper Strut Tie Bar, and Rear Lower Control Arms. My .:R is a semi daily driver that I track about every 2 months. The goal is a kick ass track car that I can drive when ever I want. I can live with a rough ride and vibrations on a daily basis just to have the bliss that is a great track experience. UNDER STEER is the bane of my existence!!!! It must go!!! Any and all advice is greatly appreciated.


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

UR, no. Would it fit an R, yes. The TT bushings are the same as the R bushings. There are a few places that make solid brass bushings, but the R/TT are mostly solid anyway. Beyond a regular front LCA brace, I'm not sure the UR brace would be that much of a benefit. Don't bother with a heavier front sway, it'll hurt more than help. 



GOT R32? said:


> I just spent a lot of time reading through this thread, and it brings up some questions. Does any one have any experience with the UR braces? Also would the brace fit a MkIV R32? It would make sense since the subframe is the same and it hangs under the subframe so no drive shaft interference. Is the TT Roadster bushings any better or worse than the R32 bushings? Aftermarket? Groftja and Vdubn_it both had there own braces, and once a gain would it fit an R32 and will it make a difference?
> 
> My set up is Neuspeed Racing Rear Anti Sway Bar (25 mm), HPA Rear Stress Bar, VF Engineering Motor Mounts, Neuspeed Short Shifter, and HPA Competition Haldex Controller. I'm getting a KILLER deal on Tien Super Street Coilovers, and 15 pound Volk Racing wheels. Does anyone have experience with Tien suspensions on a VW?
> 
> When I get the suspension I also plan on getting Neuspeed: Front Anti Sway Bar, Lower Tie Bar, Upper Strut Tie Bar, and Rear Lower Control Arms. My .:R is a semi daily driver that I track about every 2 months. The goal is a kick ass track car that I can drive when ever I want. I can live with a rough ride and vibrations on a daily basis just to have the bliss that is a great track experience. UNDER STEER is the bane of my existence!!!! It must go!!! Any and all advice is greatly appreciated.


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## GOT R32? (May 24, 2011)

KG18t Thanks for the great information! The theory behind me getting the UR Brace is it would make sense to combine a Lower Front Tie Bar with a subframe brace. Its knocking out tow birds with one stone..................... at least in theory anyway. If it doesn't work why would that be? Is it the brace isn't strong enough? Connected in the wrong points? Not enough points? Also would it be better to go with one of the "Homemade" options in this thread? Thank you for all of the good advise and keep it coming!!

UNDER-STEER MUST DIE!!!!


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

I say that more in the sense of... I'm not sure it's worth that much more compared to a good LCA brace. Once you put solid (or r/tt) bushings in the back, you've essentially got two hard mounting points very close to the pivots of the control arms, not much room for flex to begin with. Overcoming understeer in one of these cars is a combination of not making it look pretty as far as most of the VW world is concerned, and knowing how to drive the car. #1 cause of understeer is over driving the corner entrance. It doesn't matter what the car is, if you over-cook the corner, you're going to plow through it.


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## GOT R32? (May 24, 2011)

Points well taken!! The first thing I'm doing to fight under steer that I didn't mention is getting quality driver coaching/tutoring. Every time I go to the track I have a QUALIFIED PROFESSIONAL/INSTRUCTOR ride with me to coach me up. I'm getting better and better with every session. I totally understand where you are coming from now. As usual keep the good advice coming!!!

UNDER STEER MUST DIE!!!


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## HxC_KID (Nov 7, 2005)

Bump for an awesome read and thread that is over 6 years old! A LOT of GREAT information on all 10 pages :thumbup:

Cheers

-Matt :beer:


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## rommeldawg (May 25, 2009)

i just installed these http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76_208_164&products_id=1270
and am working on a kit for the subframe. hopefully usrt will take the prototype and make it available in the near future.


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## HxC_KID (Nov 7, 2005)

rommeldawg said:


> i just installed these http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76_208_164&products_id=1270
> and am working on a kit for the subframe. hopefully usrt will take the prototype and make it available in the near future.


Nice dude! 

I will be installing a set next weekend, along with TT rear CA bushings can't wait to feel the difference! Next will be some kind of lower CA/sub-frame braces :thumbup:

cheers

-Matt:beer:


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## FACTORYBOOST (Sep 12, 2011)

This thread is full of win! 
I'm kind of bummed that the subframe reinforcements didn't take off that much


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

rommeldawg said:


> i just installed these http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76_208_164&products_id=1270
> and am working on a kit for the subframe. hopefully usrt will take the prototype and make it available in the near future.


Its too bad no one makes subframe mounts in Delrin, they would be class compliant for some of the more serious autoxers out there and still have all the benefits of a metal bushing.


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## BSD (Jul 8, 2008)

rex_racer said:


> Its too bad no one makes subframe mounts in Delrin, they would be class compliant for some of the more serious autoxers out there and still have all the benefits of a metal bushing.


Just pick up delrin and have the bushings made. :thumbup:


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## rex_racer (May 19, 2001)

BSD said:


> Just pick up delrin and have the bushings made. :thumbup:


The lazy in me doesn't want to have to buy delrin, measure and machine lol.


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## rommeldawg (May 25, 2009)

here are the other things i have done. http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5560791-r32-rack-in-mk4-jetta thursday i installed k-macs and its at another shop for alignment. 0 toe, -1.5 degree camber and +8 degree caster.


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## vwtechr32 (Apr 9, 2006)

Heads up a Co. has a rear sub-frame brace coming out PM if interested in details.











Sneek peek :snowcool:


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## bootymac (Apr 19, 2005)

034 aluminum subframe bushings:

http://www.034motorsport.com/chassi...-aluminum-mk4-volkswagen-8l-audi-p-21362.html

Another member made bushings out of delrin:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5888277-Homemade-Delrin-Subframe-Bushings&p=79808310


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## vwtechr32 (Apr 9, 2006)

Yep the bushings are a great great improvement indeed. Trouble is every time you start stiffening things up bushings, control arms, dogbog this just further exacerbates the flex into the sub-frame. The brace mentioned above TOTALLY eliminates torque (higher hp motors) and load induced (hard corning) sub-frame flex. The concept and R&D stems from this thread but unlike the DIY bracing this is a true Uni-body to sub-frame brace not just a bracing of the sub-frame itself placing all the load then onto the rear bushing. This bracing nearly reduces all the under-steer of the PQ34 chassis that is caused by the failings of suspension. anyone with serious interest can PM me and I will direct you to the Co developing this :thumbup:


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## Bouhlee (Nov 27, 2011)

vwtechr32 said:


> Heads up a Co. has a rear sub-frame brace coming out PM if interested in details.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i need one of these !!!!!!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Henni (May 14, 2003)

Maby USRT could possibly develope a tubular K-frame. Anything is better than what we have.


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## vwtechr32 (Apr 9, 2006)

Ultra Racing did develop a tubular one. However the is is a huge loss is ground clearance, I've only ever seen one user post up use of the brace and they ended up removing it because of that issue and the bars were beat because of it. Can't find the thread at the moment but here is a pic of one on a TT










And in this THREAD you can read how a privios owner claims how poorly made they are as well as having ground clearence issues on his Versa


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

vwtechr32 said:


> Heads up a Co. has a rear sub-frame brace coming out PM if interested in details.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Would they fit a TT subframe with provision for factory diagonal braces (TT roadster and 3.2) ??? 






vwtechr32 said:


> Ultra Racing did develop a tubular one. However the is is a huge loss is ground clearance, I've only ever seen one user post up use of the brace and they ended up removing it because of that issue and the bars were beat because of it. Can't find the thread at the moment but here is a pic of one on a TT
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Happen to have a link of the manufacturer or distributor(s) ?


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## vwtechr32 (Apr 9, 2006)

The mfg has shipped out all the pre-orders.


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## bootymac (Apr 19, 2005)

Bumping an old thread to share my subframe braces. 

They're made of 1"x0.065" A36 steel square tubing from Home Depot Motorsports. Much stiffer than flat or angle bars! A 4' bar (<$15) is enough to do both the front (~25.5") and rear (~22.5") braces.

The front brace is mounted using the Audi TT hardware and the rear is bolted on with M8x45 8.8 bolts and nyloc nuts. Ground clearance might be an issue if you're low but I'm on Eibach Pro Kit springs.










Car is in storage right now so no driving impressions yet. 

I also have a Neuspeed strut bar on the way because the early Mk4 model year strut towers aren't reinforced like the newer models. This might explain why the TT and S3 had factory strut bars. 

I'll order solid subframe bushings and poly strut mounts in the near future too


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## mk1E_V_A_N (Sep 6, 2002)

bootymac said:


> Bumping an old thread to share my subframe braces.
> 
> They're made of 1"x0.065" A36 steel square tubing from Home Depot Motorsports. Much stiffer than flat or angle bars! A 4' bar (<$15) is enough to do both the front (~25.5") and rear (~22.5") braces.
> 
> ...


Any updates on this bootymac?
I'm thinking of making some myself, especially the rear subframe brace-unless you want to sell me one


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## bootymac (Apr 19, 2005)

I don't sell the braces but they're just steel square tubing from Home Depot. I've used them as chassis braces on other cars with very good results.

The subframe braces really helped tighten up the front end. I also added a Neuspeed front upper strut brace and Powerflex polyurethane strut mount bushings shortly after and both made very noticeable improvements to steering and handling feel. Note that my early model Mk4 lacks the strut tower bracing that came on later models. 

I haven't done solid subframe bushings yet.


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## RTDSG (Apr 26, 2014)

still have them ?


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