# Pipe Dream - 2.5 TDI + manual gearbox in Eurovan



## Motodisiac (Dec 2, 2008)

What can possibly prevent me from buying this car:

http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/s...ALSO_EXPORT&customerIdsAsString=&tabNumber=3&

Get it shipped here, swap all parts into my 2003 Eurovan, sell the rest of parts and my original drivetrain to recoup some $$. Shipping is not too expensive, it's already reduced in size  Get my car registered in South Dakota so I do not have to worry about California smog checks. 

What exactly am I overlooking?


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## eric2006 (Sep 24, 2008)

Shipping will be a lot, but you don't seem to mind that..
If all you want is an engine, though, I think you could save a lot. Much smaller, plus there are some options on this side of the pond. See: http://www.greaseworks.org/tdi.. though I'm not sure what you can do with a newer model.

Obviously, you can't ship a new one because it has to run though crash safety.. etc. Wonder how I'd do on such tests, that van looks like it's in tough shape..


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

What you're overlooking is, unlike your subject, that appears to be a 1.9TDI, no? Doesn't it say 1896cc 102PS, so that's the 1.9 TDI 100hp similar to what we already have in the US in Golfs and Jettas.

There's no point in going for a Euro 1.9 TDI when we have 1.9TDIs here. Then, if you're going to stick that in a T4, you need the 4-cyl engine mounts from a Euro T4 as well, as we got no 4-cyl T4s here at all.

If you were going to go with a Euro TDI engine, I'd get one out of a wrecked T4 (not T5) and I'd get a 2.5L TDI. Why do a 4-cyl from over the pond? If you're already going Over There for something, do a 2.5, not a 1.9.


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## pwschuh (Mar 4, 2009)

Are you overlooking that it is illegal to import that vehicle into the US? It doesn't matter what your state emissions laws are. Federal law prohibits private citizens from importing vehicles into the US that are not compliant with US emissions and safety regulations unless the vehicles are over a certain age (25 years?), which that clearly is not.


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## a1junkie (Apr 26, 2000)

Importing them in pieces is not illegal- and that one is pre-disassembled. Lots of people have imported vehicles with the chassis in one crate and the engine in another.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

pwschuh said:


> Are you overlooking that it is illegal to import that vehicle into the US? It doesn't matter what your state emissions laws are. Federal law prohibits private citizens from importing vehicles into the US that are not compliant with US emissions and safety regulations unless the vehicles are over a certain age (25 years?), which that clearly is not.


It's not illegal to import a vehicle < 25 years old into the US that is non compliant *if* you have a registered importer make it compliant.

However, the reality of getting a T5 US-legal is probably a slim-to-none chance since no version of it was ever offered here to begin with, so certain parts that might have had to have been US-specific (e.g.: headlamps, assuming the Euro ones also won't meet US standards) are simply not available.

For a parts vehicle where you're not going to register it and just use the parts, it might skirt the issue altogether.

I just don't see the point of doing that for a 1.9TDI. A 2.5TDI, (and from a T4 so you have everything T4 specific down to the drive axles) yeah maybe.


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## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

Matt is correct. 

Target a T4 rather than a T5. Mainly because you won't get a T5 driveline under a T4. Whilst the engines are similar, the gearboxes are not. Also the front suspension is different so any differences in dimensions and driveshafts will complicate matters. 

But after all that....the TDi's in the T4 aren't the ducks nuts either. My own 2.5TDi ACV engine from 2001 (basically the one you'll need to source for your EV) has the same outputs as the small 1.9 TDi in base model T5. So....not much. The real killer is the absolute essential (and expensive) requirement of replacing both the timing belt and water pump every 60,000 to 80,000 km (say every 40,000 miles). Volkswagen techs allow eight to ten hours for this operation since it involves taking the front off the van. 

And you'll struggle to find an ACV engine these days that has low miles anyway......and rebuilds aren't that cheap either. 

If thee were me....look after your VR6 engines and gearboxes. When they die a natural death......mourn them and move on.


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## gcwalla (Mar 6, 2005)

hijack: how 'bout this for a pipe dream!


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## eckk1976 (Jul 4, 2010)

Seano said:


> Matt is correct.
> 
> The real killer is the absolute essential (and expensive) requirement of replacing both the timing belt and water pump every 60,000 to 80,000 km (say every 40,000 miles). Volkswagen techs allow eight to ten hours for this operation since it involves taking the front off the van.
> 
> ...


 Well, with the VR6, you have the issue with the timing chain guides. Essentially, looking at removing the tranny every 100K.


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

The more I read these posts (VR6 engines and timing chain guides and/or sprockets) and my own experience w/the VR6, the more and more I'm liking the old 2.5 AAF/ACU from and ease-of-ownership point of view.

I used to have a '00 with the VR6 and while I experienced no issues from purchase at 25K miles to sale at 60K miles, there was always sort of a bit of a threat looming (real or paranoia I'm not quite sure) that I didn't like. Whether it was the VR6 timing chain guides or the mandatory automatic transmission (since no VR6s in North America came with a manual option), I dreaded the day that something big went amiss and I always was waiting for the other shoe to drop. Just looking at the engine itself stuffed in there was a bit intimidating, and while I did replace the spark plugs myself, it was far more difficult that it should have been for a basic maintenance thing.

I now have a '93 2.5 manual 5-speed and while I have had my share of elusive issues in general, they're more due to the age and some past neglect by POs and the only inherent issue that had hit my wallet was the dreaded cracked exhaust manifold. While it can be hard to work on here and there, I look at the engine and see what quite possibly is a mere variant of an 80s 8V 1.8 4-cyl VW engine (bore and stroke out a 1.8 8V to 2.0 and then add another cylinder and ta-da! AAF/ACU 2.5). Apart from the exhaust manifold issue, it seems to me the 2.5 5-speed is a much better option (if in good shape) for longevity and overall DIY-friendliness and cost of ownership over time. Yes there's a timing belt that can break, but it's at least designed with a service interval in mind and designed to be replaceable (although not overly DIY friendly due to some of the high torque specs on the parts involved). And so far, the 2.5 5-speed is consistently delivering 2 mpg better than the VR6 auto did and does it on cheaper regular unleaded.

Honestly if I had my way, my ideal swap would be the AAB 2.4 diesel (or any of its later variants). No ECU, no electronics, and old-school IDI-technology that is biodiesel friendly and veggie oil friendly. Slow as ever though I admit but I could deal with that. I see this simplicity and I wholly like the idea:










The problems with the 2.4D for us USA folks are:

1. Nonexistent

2. Our neighbors to the north got it, but not in great numbers.

3. Buying a Canadian 2.4D van and bringing it to the US might not be that hard on paper (easier than from Europe) but the 2.4D tended to be in cargo vans more so than passenger vans (so if you want a GL, GLS, or MV with it, you'll have to look hard) and the van would be rusty more often than not by now.

4. Finding ANY 2.4D engine from Canada or Europe with lower miles would be nearly impossible.

But once you actually have the engine in your garage, seems to me that that swap into a AAF/ACU van would be a little easier to do and a whole lot easier to own long-term than a TDI 2.5 swap.


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## jets (Oct 12, 2005)

Seano said:


> The real killer is the absolute essential (and expensive) requirement of replacing both the timing belt and water pump every 60,000 to 80,000 km (say every 40,000 miles). Volkswagen techs allow eight to ten hours for this operation since it involves taking the front off the van.
> 
> Sorry Seano, I can't agree with some of your comments. While you may have been charged 8 to 10 hrs, the official time is 3.7 hrs. The front of the van does not have to come off, but the radiator is moved forward as you would an any other engine servicing.
> The water pump does not need to be changed at the mileages you have suggested. Most people would change at every second belt change. My dealer does not automatically change the pump unless found faulty.
> ...


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## Seano (Jan 2, 2003)

I never said it was a bad engine.....just that the ownership experience was expensive due to the short major service intervals. That would only be exascerbated by owing the engine in NA.

My local dealer still has the timing belt/tensioner change at every 60,000km......wasser pump 'never' but agree that every 120,000km is sensible (although mine is still using the original at 155K).

In terms of time.....3.7hrs is just the belt/tensioner.....so this is an add on to the typical labour cost of a service....extra $300 or more each time.


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## davidfrench (Dec 31, 2010)

Hi Motodisiac,
where are you at with your dream engine swap ?
I hear my trans and timing chain asking for the same thing pretty soon...


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## EV99 (Nov 27, 2009)

Motodisiac said:


> Get my car registered in South Dakota so I do not have to worry about California smog checks.
> 
> What exactly am I overlooking?


Since you're down "that road" already in your ideas I might ad that it's fully possible within California too  http://dmv.ca.gov/vr/smogfaq.htm not all counties have smog checks


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## EV99 (Nov 27, 2009)

eric2006 said:


> Shipping will be a lot, but you don't seem to mind that..
> If all you want is an engine, though, I think you could save a lot. Much smaller, plus there are some options on this side of the pond. See: http://www.greaseworks.org/tdi.. though I'm not sure what you can do with a newer model.


I am in the process of slowly but surely starting to convert my own 1999 to Mk3 AHU TDI. When I am done with it I am looking to do my 2002 also. Since I am in CA and in the more stricter smog areas, there is no (legal) way to go around the having to get it smog legal and "smoggable" as such. On the 1999 it's pretty straight forward since Mk3 Jetta's were around until the first part of 1999, also the ECU on those do *NOT* reveal year model nor VIN code so yeah let's just leave it at that  (Mk3 Jetta TDIs 1997-1999 will do) I already have the Mk3 Jetta donor car for the 1999.

_*Now for a newer than 1999 Eurovan and if you are in an area where you will have to smog it*_, there are two options (second being a half theory still for me):

Option *A* sounds simple but isn't really, it is to take a 2002 ALH (Mk4) TDI engine, the problem is these do NOT have the same engine mounts as do the Mk3 (and Eurovans) so you would have to make a custom engine mount setup something like this:










It HAS been done btw (ironically on the other side of the pond where you can buy D, TD & TDI Eurovans  sorry João ) 

http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=87987

The other (major) issue is the oil pan, since the engines in the EVs unlike most other VWs lean FORWARD you need a different oil pan to both get an accurate reading on the dipstick (which is on the rear of the block not front so a hole needs to be drilled!) but also to enable you to get the oil OUT!  now on the Mk3 engines this isn't a problem since there was 4 cylinder engines (2.0 Gas, 1.9D & 1.9TD with the same oil pan configuration) on the Mk4 engine type with aluminum pans I have yet to find a pan that would be suitable. 

Now there are two (that I know of) 1.8T engines in the EVs in the UK:
http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=46135
http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=52681
(you have to be registered to read any extensively on their forums)

One of those approached the engine mount from the "other end" using the Mk4 setup and "adding" a mount on the van:










Not really how I would want to do it, but it works!

You still would have the issue of the oil pan though which I know at least one of those 1.8T conversions still has an issue with I believe he stated he has to remove the oil through the dipstick tube (which is doable with one of those pumps), there is also another alternative buy a steel oil pan that is available and sold as an "upgrade" out there for the Mk4 ALH engines (requires some mods to fit) and just weld on another oil plug on the other side (remember the engine is leaning the other way), as for oil pump I believe the T5 pickup neck can work. So the T5 (new EVs) do have a 4 cyl TDI in them but a subframe also like other VWs but very much unlike our T4 Eurovans. So one can't use much from the T5 (if anything) for this, I have yet to even know if the engine angle is identical in the T5 compared to the T4.

Option *B* this is where I am still working on the details and I have not run into anything yet that seems to say I could not do this (aside from a referee that happens to be a TDI fan! ). Since the AHU (mk3) and ALH (mk4) TDI engines are very similar (though they use very different blocks and heads) to the extent of having the same pistons etc etc, and since plenty of TDI tuners have used both the ALH (Mk4) turbos & injection pumps on the AHU (mk3), my current idea is to still take a Mk3 engine BUT use all the externals from an ALH including the ECU, now I am not a TDI tuning expert (just yet! ) so I don't know how this will work in reality just yet. But it would give me the best of two world for the EV, that is block compatibility & ALH/ECU smog compatibility. From my research it appears that from 2002.5 the ECU includes the VIN codes, in conjunction with IMMO3 (is it?).


Enough info there?


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## EV99 (Nov 27, 2009)

gcwalla said:


> hijack: how 'bout this for a pipe dream!


Wrong fuel type, engine in the wrong end, and driving the wrong wheels. Aside from that great project


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## EV99 (Nov 27, 2009)

Seano said:


> I never said it was a bad engine.....just that the ownership experience was expensive due to the short major service intervals. That would only be exascerbated by owing the engine in NA.



Yes this is very true and after having had such a "minor foreign" car in the past as a Golf 1.9TD (Canadian spec) and having dealt with "dealer only" parts & prices for a number of small things (this is slowly changing for the better now due to the popularity of the AAZ engines and aftermarket & used parts for them but still), I have decided against my initial dream of a 2.5TDI in my EVs.

For years I have played with the idea of a 4 cyl TDI engine in the T4 in NA but now that Justin (Greaseworks) have shown more or less step-by-step and been very generous to us all with posting his findings publicly on his blog, there's very little to hinder this now.

Also I want to point out how accurate Seano's comment about power is look at the numbers:

Base 2.5TDI 88Hp put in EVs by VW:
*2.5 TDI	AJT; AYY* inline-5 SOHC 10v	2,461 cc (150.2 cu in)	*88 PS (65 kW; 87 bhp)* @ 4,500	*195 N·m (144 ft·lbf) *@ 2,000	1998–2003
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Transporter_(T4)
(this is the one that uses the EWB transmission you will see Justin referring to)

The Mk3/B4 (*1.9 AHU/1Z*) engine:
*66 kilowatts (90 PS; 89 bhp)* @ 4,000 rpm; *202 newton metres (149 ft·lbf)* @ 1,900 rpm — 1Z, AHU
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volkswagen_Group_diesel_engines

So as you can see the HP & TQ numbers are VERY similar, obviously I personally think displacement still helps (meaning the 2.5 has raw power the 1.9 might not though numbers indicate they are near the same).


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## MUNICH_VR6 (Dec 8, 2000)

I just recently picked up a '97 canadian 2.4 diesel 5speed. Not sure how the PO imported it but I have clear title. Best part is it's converted to run wvo with a separate tank. only drawback for me is it's a panel van.


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## EV99 (Nov 27, 2009)

MUNICH_VR6 said:


> I just recently picked up a '97 canadian 2.4 diesel 5speed. Not sure how the PO imported it but I have clear title. Best part is it's converted to run wvo with a separate tank. only drawback for me is it's a panel van.


 How do you like the "performance"?  
What kind of MPGs are you seeing?


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## MUNICH_VR6 (Dec 8, 2000)

Not sure b/c it's not on the road yet. Not even sure I'm gonna keep it. Only took it as a trade for one of my motorcycles b/c I thought it was interesting and a VW! I know it's faster than any of my aircooled busses.


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## EV99 (Nov 27, 2009)

MUNICH_VR6 said:


> Not sure b/c it's not on the road yet. Not even sure I'm gonna keep it. Only took it as a trade for one of my motorcycles b/c I thought it was interesting and a VW! I know it's faster than any of my aircooled busses.


 While I am not into aircooled cars I am pretty sure there are aircooled busses out there that will beat a T4 2.4D NA  

Let me know if you consider selling it!


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## MUNICH_VR6 (Dec 8, 2000)

EV99 said:


> While I am not into aircooled cars I am pretty sure there are aircooled busses out there that will beat a T4 2.4D NA
> 
> Let me know if you consider selling it!


 Oh yeah of course I know there are fast ones, but my two busses were stock and sloooowwwwww! I'll let you know.


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## EV99 (Nov 27, 2009)

MUNICH_VR6 said:


> Oh yeah of course I know there are fast ones, but my two busses were stock and sloooowwwwww! I'll let you know.


 A quick glance at figures tells me that: 
*1980 Vanagon*: 
"0 - 60 mph in *21.2 seconds*" 
http://members.shaw.ca/albell/R&T review '80/80 vanagon_1.html 

*2000 Multivan* 2.4D (Eurovan MV in Europe): 
"0-100kph (62+mph) = *24.7 seconds*" 

2nd & 3rd image: 
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/lit/2000multivan_german.php 

I knew they are _SLOW_


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## MUNICH_VR6 (Dec 8, 2000)

Yikes! but at least the '80 Vanagon had a type IV 2.0 aircooled engine..... I'm talking 1500cc upright aircooled engine with my old '69 bus with full Westy camper equip.


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## EV99 (Nov 27, 2009)

MUNICH_VR6 said:


> Yikes! but at least the '80 Vanagon had a type IV 2.0 aircooled engine..... I'm talking 1500cc upright aircooled engine with my old '69 bus with full Westy camper equip.


 aah so more in the 11 _*minutes*_ range?  










Shot that this weekend btw


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## FrankenCar (Dec 1, 2005)

EV99 said:


> Option *B* this is where I am still working on the details and I have not run into anything yet that seems to say I could not do this ................ (aside the VIN codes, in conjunction with IMMO3 (is it?).
> Enough info there?


This sounds very good... If the ref wil go for it.


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## EV99 (Nov 27, 2009)

FrankenCar said:


> This sounds very good... If the ref wil go for it.


Chances are that could be a tad tricky since emission relevant parts are def not identical on AHU and ALH...


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## tdimeister (Feb 19, 1999)

Option C might be the simplest one of all for installing a 4-cylinder TDI into a US-spec Eurovan. The same Euro-spec version (T4 Transporter) had the option (really, and option??) of a lowly 68 HP 4-cylinder TD(-not I) - indirect injected, engine code ABL. You would just need to have a connection in Europe to salvage parts out of one example (e.g. member "ryanp" over at TDIClub), and a great deal of researching ETKA for exactly what parts were different between the 4- and 5-cylinder versions. My guess is that you would want the whole front subframe at minimum and while you're at at, get a transmission with the proper TDI gear ratios. With this hurdle out of the way, you can install basically any 4-cylinder TDI engine you wish, including the newer PD or even common rail ones with some modifications already mentioned - although my recollection of California smog rules is that you must meet the emissions standards of the NEWER or the vehicle or engine model year. I prefer the ALH engine over the 1Z/AHU because of many internal improvements. ALHs first appeared in the 1998 New Beetle and also in the A4 Jetta from a mid-year 1999.5 intro. The 98 NB ECU - 038 906 018 BD - does not have an Immobilizer and I have seen its use in a 1981 Rabbit Pickup with a TDI conversion.

Option D involves installing the latest and greatest evolution of the 5-cylinder TDI engine and that's from the Crafter cargo van.










The top-rated engine is good for 161 HP out of the box, and best of all, there is a company in the US that has them in stock (or can get them).
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=3333682#post22

That engine should be drop-in as far as the mounting points are concerned, requiring only superficial modifications (e.g. oil pan) for the rest of the installation out of the Eurovan/T4 parts bin.


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## EV99 (Nov 27, 2009)

tdimeister said:


> Option C might be the simplest one of all for installing a 4-cylinder TDI into a US-spec Eurovan. The same Euro-spec version (T4 Transporter) had the option (really, and option??) of a lowly 68 HP 4-cylinder TD(-not I) - indirect injected, engine code ABL.


Yes the ABL and also 1.8 & 2.0 gassers is why this swap is even possible (mounts & oil pan etc) but needless to say such an option (aside from being not at all interesting as a engine option, would NOT do any good on 99 & 02 models that *need* to get refereed and smog tested.



tdimeister said:


> You would just need to have a connection in Europe to salvage parts out of one example (e.g. member "ryanp" over at TDIClub), and a great deal of researching ETKA for exactly what parts were different between the 4- and 5-cylinder versions..


I guess you didn't read my posts above?  



tdimeister said:


> My guess is that you would want the whole front subframe at minimum and while you're at at, get a transmission with the proper TDI gear ratios.


No they are all the same (subframe), here is sorta an overview of the I4 engine (058) into a T4:
http://greaseworks.blogspot.com/2010_05_01_archive.html 

It's been done multiple of times now on both sides of the pond, here in NA on both I5 (where you can "re-use" the original MT) and on VR6 AT's where you need an I5 transmission that also has holes for the I4. Been done by both shops (Justin's linked to above) and several private "DIYers" and several ABL owners in Europe. The subframe has nothing to do with his swap 



tdimeister said:


> With this hurdle out of the way, you can install basically any 4-cylinder TDI engine you wish,


Well there is no such "hurdle" you need a couple of engine mounts, a oil dip stick with it's tube and an oil pan and a oil pump (actually only the pickup but VW doesn't sell it separately as they did on T3/Vanagons)




tdimeister said:


> including the newer PD or even common rail ones with some modifications already mentioned - although my recollection of California smog rules is that you must meet the emissions standards of the NEWER or the vehicle or engine model year.



I guess you didn't read nor look at the pictures at all? The T4 what we here know as the Eurovan will only take the 058 blocks anything else will require welding or custom engine mounts, and AFTER that you'd still NOT be able to check the oil nor remove the oil in any traditional fashion, and with aluminum pans you could not very easy alter it. The whole oil pan issue has to do with the angle at which a T4 engine sits at, more or less the opposite of how it sits in any I4 TDI car:












tdimeister said:


> I prefer the ALH engine over the 1Z/AHU because of many internal improvements. ALHs first appeared in the 1998 New Beetle and also in the A4 Jetta from a mid-year 1999.5 intro. The 98 NB ECU - 038 906 018 BD - does not have an Immobilizer and I have seen its use in a 1981 Rabbit Pickup with a TDI conversion.
> 
> Option D involves installing the latest and greatest evolution of the 5-cylinder TDI engine and that's from the Crafter cargo van.
> 
> ...



Yes I know I have a NB ALH  

Now the Crafter has nothing to do with the T4 Eurovan they are in completely different categories, the Crafter is a Sprinter brother, the Crafter has a longitudinal engine!












tdimeister said:


> The top-rated engine is good for 161 HP out of the box, and best of all, there is a company in the US that has them in stock (or can get them).
> http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=3333682#post22
> 
> That engine should be drop-in as far as the mounting points are concerned, requiring only superficial modifications (e.g. oil pan) for the rest of the installation out of the Eurovan/T4 parts bin.


While the short block you linked to might be similar (same?) as what was used in the T4/T5s, no the Crafter/LT/Sprinter setups are not in any way or fashion compatible with the T4!

So how about we get back to my question simple one really, AHU engine with ALH ECU, turbo and IP, doable or not?


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## tdimeister (Feb 19, 1999)

EV99 said:


> Yes the ABL and also 1.8 & 2.0 gassers is why this swap is even possible (mounts & oil pan etc) but needless to say such an option (aside from being not at all interesting as a engine option, would NOT do any good on 99 & 02 models that *need* to get refereed and smog tested.


I was not for a second suggesting that one swap in an ABL engine in there. I was simply making the connection that 4-cylinder T4s existed (evidently you know that far better than I do) and with that fact, installing a 4-cylinder TDI of any generation should be relatively straightforward, naturally one off a MkIII being easier than a MkIV or newer.




> I guess you didn't read my posts above?


Yes I did, but evidently not well enough. I got the impression that you were advising that such a swap was much more complicated than it really is. Since I got that wrong, I apologise.




> Where have you been? I thought you were "informed"
> http://greaseworks.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2011-07-28T06:53:00-07:00&max-results=7
> 
> It's been done multiple of times now on both sides of the pond, here in NA on both I5 (where you can "re-use" the original MT) and on VR6 AT's where you need an I5 transmission that also has holes for the I4. Been done by both shops (Justin's linked to above) and several private "DIYers" and several ABL owners in Europe. The subframe has nothing to do with his swap


I guess you thought wrong.  If you are the guy behind Grease Works then I humbly bow to you.



> Well there is no such "hurdle" you need a couple of engine mounts, a oil dip stick with it's tube and an oil pan and a oil pump (actually only the pickup but VW doesn't sell it separately as they did on T3/Vanagons)


Precisely, so why are we arguing for no reason again? Oh, I forgot, we're on Vortex. :laugh:



> I guess you didn't read nor look at the pictures at all? The T4 what we here know as the Eurovan will only take the 058 blocks anything else will require welding or custom engine mounts, and AFTER that you'd still NOT be able to check the oil nor remove the oil in any traditional fashion, and with aluminum pans you could not very easy alter it.


I don't know this for a fact - but I'm sure you do - but I cannot believe that the 058 short block is all that different from an 028 or 038 aside from the dipstick hole, oil pan and other superficialities that can be addressed.



> Now the Crafter has nothing to do with the T4 Eurovan they are in completely different categories, the Crafter is a Sprinter brother, the Crafter has a longitudinal engine!


Sigh yet again, I KNOW THIS. What I'm saying is, the shortblocks are SUFFICIENTLY similar if not identical that with some parts bin diving you CAN get one to fit. Is it drop-in, plug-and-play and forget-about-it? Of course not, and I don't suggest that it is.



> While the short block you linked to might be similar (same?) as what was used in the T4/T5s, no the Crafter/LT/Sprinter setups are not in any way or fashion compatible with the T4!


You know this how? Did you buy a Crafter engine with the intention of a swap into a T4 and found it to be a literal square peg into a round hole?




> So how about we get back to my question simple one really, AHU engine with ALH ECU, turbo and IP, doable or not?


Simple answer. Yes, absolutely. But after tearing apart my post for non-fittability, I'm certain you are not convinced. Maybe I just have your posts and tone read incorrectly. After all the acrimony, I'm not sure I want to post in any of your threads here or at TDIClub anymore...


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## EV99 (Nov 27, 2009)

tdimeister said:


> I was not for a second suggesting that one swap in an ABL engine in there. I was simply making the connection that 4-cylinder T4s existed (evidently you know that far better than I do) and with that fact, installing a 4-cylinder TDI of any generation should be relatively straightforward, naturally one off a MkIII being easier than a MkIV or newer..


Well yes it's A) easier to install and B) actually possible to use the oil pan setup from an I4 out of an T4 whereas the T5 that also use 06A based engines don't seem to be using the same angle of the engine as on T4s (yet to be confirmed) but the T5 use a Mk4 (and on..) engine mount setup which was mimicked in the above pic with welding in the mount on the frame.



tdimeister said:


> Yes I did, but evidently not well enough. I got the impression that you were advising that such a swap was much more complicated than it really is. Since I got that wrong, I apologise.


No worries, Eurovans/T4 aren't that popular VW topic in the NA VW scene much due to the engine and transmission choices VWoA chose to offer...which is directly tied to why we are discussing this LOL.



tdimeister said:


> I guess you thought wrong.  If you are the guy behind Grease Works then I humbly bow to you.


No I am not Justin, he is also on TDIclub but not very active, he's more active under the hood as you can tell by his progress  he's been there done that now plenty of times, and been kind enough to document it for the "public" to see!



tdimeister said:


> Precisely, so why are we arguing for no reason again? Oh, I forgot, we're on Vortex. :laugh:


I've always been told one can only argue about taste, these are facts not taste 



tdimeister said:


> I don't know this for a fact - but I'm sure you do - but I cannot believe that the 058 short block is all that different from an 028 or 038 aside from the dipstick hole, oil pan and other superficialities that can be addressed.


Well yes everything else can be addressed, and as I pointed out above in option A, I am considering using an ALH block and going with this oil pan "upgrade" offered that is of steel and therefore could more easily be modified to have a drain plug on the "wrong side" (the front of it, as in front of car vs the rear as it is on the stock TDI). Due to the angle of the T4 engines they have the drain plug in the "front" I think I have a link above too to the Portuguese ALH swap into a T4 so it can be done but there are are some hurdles with it, and frankly I'd prefer to NOT weld in any engine mounts on my 02 Eurovan...



tdimeister said:


> Sigh yet again, I KNOW THIS. What I'm saying is, the shortblocks are SUFFICIENTLY similar if not identical that with some parts bin diving you CAN get one to fit. Is it drop-in, plug-and-play and forget-about-it? Of course not, and I don't suggest that it is..


I've never looked into it as it usually doesn't work out well to try to fit a longitudinal engine the other way though doable. I *do* know that the I5 from Mk5 will not fit or bolt up in any way to the T4, though a lot of people which they would, meaning an Mk5 2.5 into a 1993 Eurovan, won't work.



tdimeister said:


> You know this how? Did you buy a Crafter engine with the intention of a swap into a T4 and found it to be a literal square peg into a round hole?


The LT/Crafter share a lot of components with the MB Sprinter but shares next into nothing with the T4, they are very different animals, despite being similar on the outside (to some?).

May I return the question and ask if you have installed a Crafter engine into your T4? Do you have a T4? Have you owned a T4? 



tdimeister said:


> Simple answer. Yes, absolutely. But after tearing apart my post for non-fittability, I'm certain you are not convinced. Maybe I just have your posts and tone read incorrectly. After all the acrimony, I'm not sure I want to post in any of your threads here or at TDIClub anymore...


Tearing apart? It would be very hard to comprehend what reply is in ref to what without doing a direct quote and reply, as is commonplace even in email. Not sure what I tore apart and how. Just trying my best to separate fact and fiction, since there's plenty of the latter around T4s in NA unfortunately. 

Well, where you post or not is your prerogative no?  All I am looking for is FACTS not fiction


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## Ozman (Jan 23, 2003)

*No Pipe Dream Here...*



















A friend of mine found one here for sale on Kijiji earlier this year...

2003 Multivan 2.5 TDI 5-speed with the MV weekender setup Very nice van.

My 2000 T4 VR6 gets about 600km / tank the TDI gets ~1000 km/ tank or about 7.0L/100 km
/ 40MPG

Even has a Webasto diesel powered engine heater w/ remote so motor can be pre warmed in winter for a toasty engine and instant heat...

Sounds awesome with the diesel. Too bad this was a one off and no idea how the guy got it registered here in the first place.


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## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

why not sticking with the vr6? i hated it till i got one in a passat with a MT. Now i understand that vw t4 AT are crap, so why not replace it with something outta other vw's? Or from the new mk6 jettas or passats?


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## EV99 (Nov 27, 2009)

manfredwerner said:


> why not sticking with the vr6? i hated it till i got one in a passat with a MT.


I am sure plenty people would not mind doing so (I'm not one), but the only MT you can get for it is in Europe out of newer TDIs and from a VR6 MT one in Europe (extremely rare).

Most people by now are understanding that the ridiculously low fuel prices in NA vs the rest of the world will not last here either...so once you do a swap might as well make it sensible and practical. Already one can see Passats with V6 cost less than ones with 1.8T...



manfredwerner said:


> Now i understand that vw t4 AT are crap, so why not replace it with something outta other vw's? Or from the new mk6 jettas or passats?


There are no other VWs that have the same transmission as the Eurovans.


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## EV99 (Nov 27, 2009)

Ozman said:


> A friend of mine found one here for sale on Kijiji earlier this year...
> 
> 2003 Multivan 2.5 TDI 5-speed with the MV weekender setup Very nice van.
> 
> ...


I presume "here"=Canada? There it is a lot more doable than in the US. Interestingly the Bentley manual for the Eurovan covers the 2.5TDI!


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## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

Then, the only option that we have is to go bigger, my second love after vw is a Mercedes Sprinter, short base high roof with 2.7 5 inline td!


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## EV99 (Nov 27, 2009)

manfredwerner said:


> Then, the only option that we have is to go bigger, my second love after vw is a Mercedes Sprinter, short base high roof with 2.7 5 inline td!


Why would that have to be the ONLY option? 

That is the next class up which is the Crafter in current VW language and sold as close as Mexico (where the new T5, next generation Eurovan is sold also with MT 4cyl TDI I might add).

The current Sprinters use a V6 CDI engines, the earlier one had I5 engines yes.

I personally have no need for such a huge vehicle and it doesn't get any where close to the fuel efficiency I want. For anyone who isn't in actual need of the added capacity be it weight or/and volume the Sprinter does not really make much sense at the end of the day. It's a purely commercial vehicle size, unlike the Eurovan size. Unlike the Sprinter, the Eurovan will fit into any parking garage etc that is designed for "passenger vehicles" (unless you raised it up as I did then you have to watch it I can manage in most but not in all garages), same goes for the overall length etc.


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## EUROBORA8V (May 16, 2005)

I keep reading that 2.5TDIs have problems with uneven wear either on camshafts and/or cylinder heads.


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## EUROBORA8V (May 16, 2005)

Ozman said:


> A friend of mine found one here for sale on Kijiji earlier this year...
> 
> 2003 Multivan 2.5 TDI 5-speed with the MV weekender setup Very nice van.
> 
> ...


:heart::beer:


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## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

because i like it, look at the bigger picture here, it is square, it is td, it has sliding doors, the room in the back is great for a sofa and a big tv-family cruiser!
I once drove a long sprinter from NYC to Pennsilvania auto auction 180 miles and back 180 miles, flooring it all the way, i fueled up at only 35$ and when i came back to NYC i had a quarter of the tank left...
the fuel economy for its size is great , the parts are plenty all over the place, the parking is not bad at all, i park big vans every day, suburbans and e-350's, even in brooklyn it is not bad at all.


But, just a question, so they do make t5 in Mexico? How about importing one?


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

manfredwerner said:


> But, just a question, so they do make t5 in Mexico? How about importing one?


They are not made there, but they are sold there.

Importing one would be about as hard (save for the shipping costs) as from Europe since the regulations on importing from another country are the same for Mexico as Europe or almost anywhere else in the world. Canada --> USA is different because their regulations overlap or exceed US specifications on close to everything, so that's why Canada --> USA is easier.


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## EUROBORA8V (May 16, 2005)

gti_matt said:


> They are not made there, but they are sold there.
> 
> Importing one would be about as hard (save for the shipping costs) as from Europe since the regulations on importing from another country are the same for Mexico as Europe or almost anywhere else in the world. *Canada --> USA is different because their regulations overlap or exceed US specifications on close to everything, so that's why Canada --> USA is easier.*


 
So importing a B-class would be easy?


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

EUROBORA8V said:


> So importing a B-class would be easy?


Most likely, yes.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/VIG_Canada03262010.pdf



> A motor vehicle that bears a label certifying compliance with all applicable
> Canadian motor vehicle safety standards (CMVSS), but not with the FMVSS, can still be
> imported as a conforming motor vehicle under Box 2B on the HS-7 Declaration form to be
> presented to U.S. Customs and Border Protection (Customs) at the time of entry if the following
> ...


Read the rest of that page too but that was the most important part.


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## EUROBORA8V (May 16, 2005)

gti_matt said:


> Most likely, yes.
> 
> http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/VIG_Canada03262010.pdf
> 
> ...


:thumbup:

Thank you Sir


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## Ozman (Jan 23, 2003)

Sorry yes "here" is Canada... Ontario specifically


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## jets (Oct 12, 2005)

EUROBORA8V said:


> I keep reading that 2.5TDIs have problems with uneven wear either on camshafts and/or cylinder heads.


Which engine are you referring to, the 2.5TDI in the T4 or T5?


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## EUROBORA8V (May 16, 2005)

jets said:


> Which engine are you referring to, the 2.5TDI in the T4 or T5?


2.5TDI in the T4s. 

It also has a lot of problems in the B5/C5 application.


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## manfredwerner (Jan 30, 2007)

i'd like to read about that, where are the articles published? is it at www.volkswagen.msk.ru ?


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## EUROBORA8V (May 16, 2005)

manfredwerner said:


> i'd like to read about that, where are the articles published? is it at www.volkswagen.msk.ru ?


looking for one.

There is a good overview of problems on of the pages on drive2.ru

Black Multivan with the city code 116.


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## irsa76 (Mar 28, 2003)

EV99 said:


> While I am not into aircooled cars I am pretty sure there are aircooled busses out there that will beat a T4 2.4D NA
> 
> Let me know if you consider selling it!


Try a NA 2.4D LWB Syncro Camper running oversized offroad tires! Had to do some work on one at the dealer and it was slow! Our 2.5 TDI auto breakdown van was faster even when towing a dead Nissan Patrol!


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## EUROBORA8V (May 16, 2005)

manfredwerner said:


> i'd like to read about that, where are the articles published? is it at www.volkswagen.msk.ru ?


 http://www.drive2.ru/cars/volkswagen/caravelle/caravelle_t4/evgenyr/


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## EV99 (Nov 27, 2009)

irsa76 said:


> Try a NA 2.4D LWB Syncro Camper running oversized offroad tires!


 Been in one of those yeah, it takes a few minutes for something to "happen"


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## EV99 (Nov 27, 2009)

EUROBORA8V said:


> http://www.drive2.ru/cars/volkswagen/caravelle/caravelle_t4/evgenyr/


 Those Audi A8 "winter" alloy (yep not steel wheels!) are very light, I had a set but sold them a few years back. Very hard to find nowadays...


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## bhtooefr (Dec 23, 2005)

EUROBORA8V said:


> 2.5TDI in the T4s.
> 
> It also has a lot of problems in the B5/C5 application.


Completely different engine.

The C3, C4, T4, and Volvo 850 family is a 2.5 inline 5, SOHC 10v, VE pump, belt-driven cam, with the pump driven by a second belt off the cam.

The B5, C5, D2 family is a 2.5 V6, DOHC 24v, VP44 pump, single timing belt driving the cams (I believe it uses the old 16v/1.8T/EA113 2.0T-style chain between the cams) and the pump, and that has oiling issues in the head.

The T5 family is a 2.5 inline 5, SOHC 10v, PD system, with a single belt. It's based on the C3/C4/T4/Volvo engine. I assume that that has the same camshaft wear issues that the other PD engines have.

The Touareg family is also a 2.5 inline 5, SOHC 10v, PD system, with timing gears, and an aluminum block. The V10, which this is half of, has the camshaft wear issues, so...

Finally, the Crafter family is a 2.5 inline 5, SOHC 10v, CR system. Not sure how the belt layout is on that engine, although given its origins, I'd be surprised if it's any different from the C3/C4/T4/Volvo engine that it would be based on. *Edit:* Well, I'll be damned - they moved the pump to accessory side.


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## irsa76 (Mar 28, 2003)

Ozman said:


> A friend of mine found one here for sale on Kijiji earlier this year...
> 
> 2003 Multivan 2.5 TDI 5-speed with the MV weekender setup Very nice van.
> 
> ...


 Not just any TDI, but the high output one, can't rememeber engine code.


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## EUROBORA8V (May 16, 2005)

bhtooefr said:


> Completely different engine.
> 
> The C3, C4, T4, and Volvo 850 family is a 2.5 inline 5, SOHC 10v, VE pump, belt-driven cam, with the pump driven by a second belt off the cam.
> 
> ...


Thank you for a valuable lesson!

Give this man a beer. :beer:


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## EV99 (Nov 27, 2009)

irsa76 said:


> Not just any TDI, but the high output one, can't rememeber engine code.


http://www.t4-wiki.de/wiki/Motorkennbuchstabe

http://translate.google.com/transla...8Ld&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns


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## Dancv (Feb 20, 2014)

*Hi*



EV99 said:


> http://www.t4-wiki.de/wiki/Motorkennbuchstabe
> 
> http://translate.google.com/transla...8Ld&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns


Hi everyone. I'm new here and I got a questions. I'm trying to find and buy VW eurovan for work and I'm looking to buy one and put Diesel engine in it. What engine will fit it? From what cars and models? And which one is easiest to install? What year of the eurovan should I be looking for so i wouldn't have any problems with gear box and wires? What transition can I use? Or should I replace it with engine? How can I pass a smog check? And do I need one if car is from 1996-1999?


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## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Dancv said:


> Hi everyone. I'm new here and I got a questions. I'm trying to find and buy VW eurovan for work and I'm looking to buy one and put Diesel engine in it. What engine will fit it? From what cars and models? And which one is easiest to install? What year of the eurovan should I be looking for so i wouldn't have any problems with gear box and wires? What transition can I use? Or should I replace it with engine? How can I pass a smog check? And do I need one if car is from 1996-1999?


Smog check (if you need one) is up to your state or local laws. We won't be able to answer that here.

Older 4-cylinder diesels from Golfs and Jettas and Passats should bolt right in as long as you get the 4-cylinder passenger side motor mount extension and get the right oil pan and oil pump pickup, all from a European 4-cylinder T4 van. The motor in a Eurovan sits at a very tilted-forward angle and you need the right oil pickup and pan for that. Mk3 Jetta TDI motors are semi-popular for doing this and converting it to a mechanical "mTDI" motor is popular for keeping things simple.

A diesel 2.4 5-cylinder AAB motor (available in Canada) will bolt right in too, although it's a IDI non-turbo unit so the power isn't that great. These motors aren't all that cheap and plentiful and given they're not that powerful, they may not be the best option.

All of the above will bolt up to the 02B manual transmissions in older Eurovans. Probably will bolt up to the 098 automatic in older Eurovans too. Not sure if they bolt up to the 01P trans in newer VR6 Eurovans though but I suspect they will.

Eurovan electrical systems are similar to the late Mk2 Golf/Jetta and Mk3 Golf/Jettas. Don't go too much into the Mk4 Golf/Jetta as donors...probably won't work...too new.


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