# Lean when full bosst hits... 63# 35R setup.



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

My AFR is very good at idle. 14.5-15.1 Same when cruising. When the boost start to build, the AFR is around 11.6-11.9 But when max boost comes on it hits from 12.3 and up to mid 13's......
Same at 15 psi or 28 psi..... 
Lean.... That starnge for me. Always been to rich when problems


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Fuel pressure holding?


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

Yep, I think youi might be in on something there. I have nothing to measure the pressure with.
044 pump is screaming like normal, so it should be that


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Check the recirculation valve and inlet piping between the compressor and MAF sensor for leaks. If you have water-methanol injection then assure it doesn't run dry or it may also potentially introduce un-metered air through the valve. Even a little air getting into the system un-metered will cause a lean condition...


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

DieGTi said:


> Check the recirculation valve and inlet piping between the compressor and MAF sensor for leaks. If you have water-methanol injection then assure it doesn't run dry or it may also potentially introduce un-metered air through the valve. Even a little air getting into the system un-metered will cause a lean condition...


Thanx, un-metered air is a good tip 

Although, I talked to some of the big power Audi 5cyl guys over here, and they are all on standalone, tuning full boost at AFR 12.5+...... I guess Ive been abit "locked" on that high 11's are safe and good. They said high 12's are cleaner and more power with safenes....


----------



## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

I've had issues in the past with a lean spot just before boost hits hard. Even at 5-6psi its still a little lean then rich for full boost ~11.2. It's ben bad enough that the dyno operator told me to shut it down for fear of blowing it up. It's always done that and the 42# software that I have had does that as well. I have never worried about it because the AFRs always drop and EGT's never get hot enough to cause worry.


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

KubotaPowered said:


> I've had issues in the past with a lean spot just before boost hits hard. Even at 5-6psi its still a little lean then rich for full boost ~11.2. It's ben bad enough that the dyno operator told me to shut it down for fear of blowing it up. It's always done that and the 42# software that I have had does that as well. I have never worried about it because the AFRs always drop and EGT's never get hot enough to cause worry.


Yes, I remember you talking about that lean spot. When boost hits hard, and i try to watch the AFR gauge I can see numbers that says 12-12.5-13..... 
I tried to run over 22 psi with the bkr7e 0.24 gap. It just shutters and I loose all the power.
Then I found a set off Bosch motorsport plugs that Foffa told me he used. 
Bosch F2CS. They are SUPER cold, but they really did the jobb up to 27 psi


----------



## VR6rocks (Jun 5, 2004)

Hello Kristian, did you sort out your problem yet?
Are you seeing any hesitations or sputtering when it goes lean? I had this problem and it turned out to be a weak coil/ground, causing the spark to blow out and unburnt oxygen causing lean readings.

By the way, I have that same lean spot with C2 42# software. When it starts bulding boost from 3k rpm, I can still see ~13-12.5 afr from until around 4k rpm before the afrs start to drop to around 11.5 at 7K rpm. I'm personally not worried because boost is about 15psi, running on 8:1 compression, intercooler and water/ethanol injection.


----------



## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

i had this when i fitted an hks mushroom air filter turbulence across the maf was unreal


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

VR6rocks said:


> Hello Kristian, did you sort out your problem yet?
> Are you seeing any hesitations or sputtering when it goes lean? I had this problem and it turned out to be a weak coil/ground, causing the spark to blow out and unburnt oxygen causing lean readings.
> 
> By the way, I have that same lean spot with C2 42# software. When it starts bulding boost from 3k rpm, I can still see ~13-12.5 afr from until around 4k rpm before the afrs start to drop to around 11.5 at 7K rpm. I'm personally not worried because boost is about 15psi, running on 8:1 compression, intercooler and water/ethanol injection.


Hi Elie.
No hesitation or anything. It pulls hard and noe issues. Im gonna check my resirculation valve setup. 
And I need Toyo R888's... Went to a local VW/Audi meeting with over 150 cars today. Almost embasasing to have so much power and no traction.
I asume all the big power Quattro guys was having a good laugh with me having no grip until fourth gear


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

magner said:


> i had this when i fitted an hks mushroom air filter turbulence across the maf was unreal


Very good info Magner. Little thing people can forget.
I use the Pro maf filter that came with the setup.


----------



## VR6rocks (Jun 5, 2004)

I'm having the same issues with traction. I don't think the R888 will do much difference, maybe at 15-20psi but not more. I decided to hold off any engine work until I do the 4motion swap.
Spinning 3rd on the street is no fun, and all that power is useless.


----------



## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

Just drive around on slicks, problem solved


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

Just run a good drag radial, tire sizes for these cars are going to be hard to find though. Not sure what sizes the following tires come in, but you'll hook on the street with them. I get a good 5-8,000 miles out of the BFG drag's on my Mustang so they last decently long. People say the Nitto tires are good for 10-12,000.

BFG T/A Drag
Nitto 555R
Nitto NT05R
Mickey Thompson ET Street
Toyo Proxes TQ


----------



## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Norwegian-VR6 said:


> I tried to run over 22 psi with the bkr7e 0.24 gap. It just shutters and I loose all the power.



Seeing that same BS also at the same gap on the same plug on the same boost level.:screwy: About to try tightening the gap and/or using something different for a coil.


----------



## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

You may have a weak coil. I had spark issues with the gaps being too big .028 and after 17psi it would just drop all power. Have you thought about switching to the BKR7EIX plugs?


----------



## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

KubotaPowered said:


> You may have a weak coil. Have you thought about switching to the BKR7EIX plugs?


I want to try a different coil (because I have it and want to experiment). About to try the Ford conversion but need a stock coilpack donor. If the results are still crappy then I'm going to start trying different plugs and/or gap settings. I too am noticing a leaning out immediately following what I believe to be the plugs loosing spark.


----------



## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> I want to try a different coil (because I have it and want to experiment). About to try the Ford conversion but need a stock coilpack donor. If the results are still crappy then I'm going to start trying different plugs and/or gap settings.


My bet is on the coil. I've run over 30psi on the stock coil, BKR7E's gapped to .022 and no issues. Only time I have had problems is when the gap opens up.


----------



## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

KubotaPowered said:


> My bet is on the coil. I've run over 30psi on the stock coil, BKR7E's gapped to .022 and no issues. Only time I have had problems is when the gap opens up.


Agreed, I've been able to get up to 28 psi on the same type of plug on a similar setup. I really don't want to tighten the plug gap up any more so I will try the coil conversion first (or heck if I get impatient I might get another set of plugs and run them at .022 just for a data point). :thumbup:


----------



## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

KubotaPowered said:


> You may have a weak coil. I had spark issues with the gaps being too big .028 and after 17psi it would just drop all power. Have you thought about switching to the BKR7EIX plugs?


For some reason my car HATES the *EIX plugs, it misfires like nobody's business, but it seems to love the regular E's. Beern running the good old BKR7E's for years now. I have had some Denso IK22's or maybe 24's (like 3.5 years ago) and they were nice but they are expensive ....

EDIT: Gapping them all to ~.022


----------



## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

PhReE said:


> EDIT: Gapping them all to ~.022


Think that is the key to your success.


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> I too am noticing a leaning out immediately following what I believe to be the plugs loosing spark.


If the fuel doesn't ignite then a wideband will read the resulting mixture more lean than if it ignited.


----------



## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

DieGTi said:


> If the fuel doesn't ignite then a wideband will read the resulting mixture more lean than if it ignited.


This is true.


----------



## VR6rocks (Jun 5, 2004)

PhReE said:


> This is true.


I can also vouch for that. It happened to me and it turned out to be a weak ground to the coils.
But in my case I was having a bit of hesitation.


----------



## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

DieGTi said:


> If the fuel doesn't ignite then a wideband will read the resulting mixture more lean than if it ignited.


The reason is because an A/F meter is an OXYGEN sensor. If the combustion never happens there is excess oxygen, same as having little fuel (lean).


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

KubotaPowered said:


> My bet is on the coil. I've run over 30psi on the stock coil, BKR7E's gapped to .022 and no issues. Only time I have had problems is when the gap opens up.


Running Bosch F2CS super cold plugs now, with OEM gapping.
Turned down the boost to 15 psi. 

Fifth gear, from 2000 rpm and it reads AFR at healthy 12.3 and counts down to 11.7, until full boost hits at 3700-3800 rpm. Then I see 12.8 - 13.1 AFR 

Sometimes when shifting fast in full boost, it can really hasitate and you need to go off the pedal to try again... 

Beru coilpack is from around 2007. Gonna get a new one.
OR, should someone make me a MSD setup that is plugn - play, for me to bolt on :snowcool:


----------



## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Your fuel pressure ok (under load)?


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> Your fuel pressure ok (under load)?


Any good idea how to measure the pressure under load?
A doable way off doing it ?

Maybe the oem intank pump is tired, and need to rest in the garbage can ?


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

If you're running the oem rail then yes, there is a test port you can attach an 8mm hose over to run a gauge. Run a length of hose and secure it outside where you can view safely from the cabin while driving.


----------



## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

Norwegian-VR6 said:


> Any good idea how to measure the pressure under load?
> A doable way off doing it ?
> 
> Maybe the oem intank pump is tired, and need to rest in the garbage can ?


Are you only running the factory intank pump? You really need an inline pump with what you're trying to run.

You can get a fuel pressure gauge to check your pressure. Judging by the info you've shared, your pressure is failing to rise with boost. Could be a lack of fuel, or could be a faulty FPR (Less likely, but easier/cheaper to check).


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

djsheijkdfj said:


> Are you only running the factory intank pump? You really need an inline pump with what you're trying to run.
> 
> You can get a fuel pressure gauge to check your pressure. Judging by the info you've shared, your pressure is failing to rise with boost. Could be a lack of fuel, or could be a faulty FPR (Less likely, but easier/cheaper to check).


Inline Bosch 044 pump has been screaming under the car since 2007. Same noise as always from it.
Maybe hook of the fuel line and give the intank pump 12volt and see how much it will flow for 1 minute...


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

Will fit this, and delete a possible cause/issue.

http://www.spturbo.com/onlinestore/index.php/mk3-intake-fuel-pump.html


----------



## kamahao112 (Nov 17, 2007)

Norwegian-VR6 said:


> Will fit this, and delete a possible cause/issue.
> 
> http://www.spturbo.com/onlinestore/index.php/mk3-intake-fuel-pump.html


:thumbup:


----------



## vr6 nitrous (sweden) (Dec 18, 2002)

why? just measure fuel pressure ,there is no need to buy a new fuel pump if that isent the fault

pressure gauge and a 1m tubing and its all done Kristian


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

I tried a 4bar fpr, and the AFR went down to low 11's... 
So I asume it was the 2year old oem 3bar fpr that was not working correct.
I will try another 3bar and see what happens.
15 psi on the street now, and it almost as fun as 28 psi. Because it hooks pretty good.


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

Been a while since last. 

3 bar fpr @ 15psi, and afr is reading from 12 and up to 12.5.
Sometimes it reads higher than that :what:

Strange thing, is that the boost controller is not working anymore. Kinetic's.
So I went to a friend and fitted a brand new TurboXS boost controller.
Same thing happend, and what happens is that the MBC doesnt control the boost.
Its no limit, so the 35R screams out all it got. Offcourse havent been driving with it like that 

Take the mbc off, and the car boosts from the wg spring set at 15 psi / 1 bar.
Pressure tested the vacum from SRI, via bosch resirculation valve, to the WG. No leaks.

Im gonna take the hole front off today, and check if I find any bad hoses and re torque the SRI.
New-South performance gasket is used on the SRI. Maybe its leaking ?

There will always be something........ :snowcool:


----------



## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

There's a local car with a similar problem, it's getting something more tuneable


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

Tube from the turbo didnt look that good. Lets change it, and see what happens.


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

Replaced the hose from the turbo. No luck. Now my 38mm tial wg has started to make strange noises. When I use the boost controller it hits full boost with no restriction. Max what the 35R can do. And when I take the MBC off, it hits the spring pressure. So I changed the Kinetic mbc to a brand new TurboXS mbc. No luck at all. Still max boosting, and doesnt matter what i set it on high/low boost. 

Now... My 38mm tial wg has started to make strange noises. Never heard the wg that much before. Took it off, and saw that the plastic/rubber seal inside has been a little scweezed, when I changed the spring last summer. So I was happy and thought THERE we have the problem.
Friend of mine had a brand new 38mm Tial wg in the garage, so I fitted it.

NO luck  Same stuff happens when adding a mbc = full boost.
Same ****ty wg sound is coming also.. Doesnt matter what PSI im at. Same crap anyway :sly:

I have a big Forge valve that I really wanna fit, but its NO space with the Kinetic IC setup.
So I use a oem Bosch plastic valve... 


Help ?


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

How do you have the boost controller and wastegate vacuum routed?


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

DieGTi said:


> How do you have the boost controller and wastegate vacuum routed?


Vacum line from the SRI into a T. One line goes to the diverter and one to the wg. Between the T and wg the MBC is fitted. It used to work before....... Thats the strange thing.


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Are you using just one of the two ports on the wastegate?


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

Just the one on the side. Top port is out in free air.


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Set it up like this:










:thumbup:


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

Yeah, Ive seen the TIAL diagram. Strange thing, is that ive been running my setup for so long now, with the mbc, and it has been working  Thanx Andrew


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

No problem. I have the same setup. 8mm line from intake manifold and matched to the diagram with Tial wastegate and Tial Type BOV. I'm using a home-made bleeder type boost controller similar to those you're using. Works well. :beer:


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

This past winter, when the car stood without a trans, the chains that was holding the engine up was hooked to the lower SRI...... Might try to tighten it. Thing is I FORGOT to to that last time the front was off :laugh: I have a "New South performance gasket" 

Solution:

Pull off the front. Throw away all lines, buy new ones. Check SRI bolts. Change the tiny vacum nipels on the Juan SRI to something a little bigger.
Iron Maiden was in town yesterday. Im tired


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

How is it?


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

DieGTi said:


> How is it?


 Boost leak test today. Found a small leak. Car does not run any smoother. 

When you hear the turbo starts to spin and building up max boost, I went off the pedal and floored it again. When I floored it right away again, the afr reads extremly lean 16-17, engine shutters and doesnt have any power, before it all off the sudden runs like it should and all the power comes on at the same time :screwy: AFRs are still in the 12s. From 12.1 - 13 @ full boost. So strange...


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

That's the nature of a maf sensor as the primary load system. When you close the throttle plate you stall the air passing by the maf sensor element. When you stab the throttle during decel you may achieve a lean condition due to sensor lag with a large volume of air between the sensor and intake valve.


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

Yep, but I cant understand why it will run so lean. 
Is my intake pump starting to die on me. I thought a fuelpump was either working like it should, or not working at all... ?


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

http://www.jegs.com/i/Russell/799/661440/10002/-1 
+ 
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance+Products/555/41013/10002/-1 
+ 
http://www.jegs.com/i/Russell/799/697010/10002/-1 
=


----------



## Norwegian-VR6 (Feb 6, 2002)

DieGTi said:


> http://www.jegs.com/i/Russell/799/661440/10002/-1
> +
> http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance+Products/555/41013/10002/-1
> +
> ...


 hehehe... Thanx


----------

