# HellaFlush fight starter



## mbaron (Aug 21, 2008)

Driven Daily


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

> TDB says:
> September 9, 2010 at 11:13 am
> 
> It’s so incredibly ironic how this “stance” movement came about. Back in the 80’s and 90’s people started installing stiffer, lower suspensions on their cars to improve handling. The perceived improvement in appearance was an afterthought not the main goal. It all started out with relatively small drops and carefully selected spring rates and valving that actually made vehicles perform better. (What a concept!) Before long people were chopping springs and the super-low springs came around. We started to lose our way…
> ...


 This guy hit the nail on the head.


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## ECS Tuning - Audi (Oct 12, 2009)

The comments are a great read.


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

DeckManDubs said:


> This guy hit the nail on the head.


 
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Fully agree. H&R RSS's at optimal ride height FTW!


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## Mattionals (Mar 9, 2005)

I'm not into the whole stance game, really I like the performance oriented but street car look. Always been that way, most likely always will. I do like having "flush" tires though. And by this I mean flush as in the sidewall is vertical and doesn't bulge out, but still offers protection to the rim of the wheel. No stretch for me.


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## notoriouszig (Jun 14, 2010)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

DeckManDubs said:


> This guy hit the nail on the head.


 
WHAT?? That quote is false....... stance and low has been around the lowrider scene way before most of you have been born.... Stance has always had it's place, like hot rodding, muscle cars, Imports, mini trucks, etc..... 

hating to hate is lame:thumbdown: if a person doesn't like it then don't do iteace: simple as that..... 

I like how these new kids are embracing the car culture... they are doing their own thing and that is awesome!! 

opcorn:


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Hahaha haters. That ford isnt flush at all. Not to mention Shaving the bodywork of your car has nothing to do with stance:facepalm:


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## mbaron (Aug 21, 2008)

It's cool that bags have gone the other direction. At first when cars (not large trucks and buses) started using them, they were for show (Lowriders) or comfort (Town Cars). Now they are building them to the point where they can improve performance when used at the right settings.


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## M-Power M3 (Oct 15, 2007)

I love how one person can have so much fun living their life and doing things for themselves that it pisses someone off to the point they have to write about it. This is why I


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

So true. I hated imports that were non euro and as much as i would never buy one, when done clean they are something to admire


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Hate On Haters! eace:


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## schkyl01 (Jun 9, 2009)

:thumbup:


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## Mattionals (Mar 9, 2005)

I never cared about the whole xxx vs. xxx thing. I guess I just never have been very biased considering I've owned two Japanese made cars, two American made cars/trucks, and now two German made cars. I don't care who thinks what my car looks like is cool, it matters what I think about it, which I think is something I can respect in the Hellaflush movement.

I go about doing up cars like how I think they should be done because it's my car, lol. I admit that I will take concepts from different styles if I find them aesthetically pleasing or performance worthy.

:beer::beer::beer: Here's to being a motorhead!


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## Neb (Jan 25, 2005)

I love the pic the guy puts up in the article. LOL it doesn't represent anything that he talks about.. shaved this and that, wheels tucked in the fenders. the MK3 almost has reverse rake so the guy is 'hating' on something he can't even find a good example of. People need to realize that not everyone buys (and drives) a car the same way or wants the same things out of it. Yeah we drive TT's which are more performance oriented (well that's debatable but still..) but I don't care about going fast or tracking my car. I build it to look rad in my own eyes and that's it.


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

This weekend I went to First Fitment by Cannibeat - a show at an airfield in NJ off of 27 by Parsipany. It was an amazing location and the DJ was playing great tunes, but the cars where not where my heart lies.

The "best in show" award went to a Subaru WRX bug eye with a chromed motor (yes the whole thing), shaved bay & crazy racing seats. The best part of this all was that this car was towed in by the owner on a trailer. The car doesn't turn on. At that point I don't think you should be allowed to compete, it's no longer a car- it's just just a piece of art work that has lost all of it's functionality.

My friend drove his super clean 1990 Z there and although it's a showy car with crazy fitment HRE's it's also a car you can drive and enjoy. With only 63k and not a scratch/dent/ding/rock chip on it - was sadly too clean to win this fast and the furious style car show though. If he had essentially destroyed the car he might have won. Now I'm not saying that this style/culture is wrong, I think some of us are just saying that we can't relate to it. I'm glad they enjoy working on cars though- at least they have a passion for it too.


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## Neb (Jan 25, 2005)

DougLoBue said:


> Now I'm not saying that this style/culture is wrong, *I think some of us are just saying that we can't relate to it.* I'm glad they enjoy working on cars though- at least they have a passion for it too.


See that's the point that most 'haters' miss though (yet you get it). Most people just think the whole thing is stupid and pointless but to each their own right?

Personally I agree with you that if you want to enter a car into the show you have to at least drive it into the grounds to show it works. It's one thing if you trailer it 12 hrs yet it still drives and it's another thing for it to not drive at all.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

In my opinion the whole community has taken the automobile to a slightly abstract level, where they no longer provide convenient transportation. Snow/rain/dirt roads/track days and road trips all the cars I have built have never been compromised to the point where it will create a difficult situation driving them. 

Each to his/her own, but a automobile should be able to be driven across the country without having to replace your oil pan/pump (these are not normal wear items) 

If it cannot do this, then there is no real reason in my book that it needs to have plates on it.


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## bklnstunt718 (May 30, 2007)

i just recently bagged my car.. 
i drive it nooo differently than when i had coilovers in... 
still whip turns.. 
still do 150mph pulls on my way to pa.. 
car feels awesome!!!
i also get to look pretty hehe


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

bklnstunt718 said:


> i just recently bagged my car..
> i drive it nooo differently than when i had coilovers in...
> still whip turns..
> still do 150mph pulls on my way to pa..
> ...


Sounds practical to meh:thumbup:


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## bklnstunt718 (May 30, 2007)

lovin the miata you posted


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## darrenbyrnes (Jan 4, 2005)




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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

bklnstunt718 said:


> lovin the miata you posted


Thanks. I love the stance it has. The motor sticking up just seals the deal. Reminds me of the dark green one that was down at h20


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## falling angel (Oct 9, 2009)

I believe I read somewhere that the TT performs best when the lower control arms are pretty much parallel. Though I can't remember for the life of me where I read this. Made sends with the geometry and that's as low as I plan on going, maybe a smidge higher for these lovely NY roads.


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

Yup the A platform up to the mk5 have 90' rotated front control arm, rear position bushings. Mk1's, 2's, 3's, & 4's including the Corrado, Scirocco, & TT. 

Essentially when you lower the car beyond parallel the bushings functionality becomes limited and they break down over time. There's a HUGE technical thread on the mk4 suspension geometry somewhere on here from YEARS ago.

I run my car at this height, while it doesn't look slammed it drives very well. I need to snap a picture of it not on a lift/jackstands. There's probably a finger or two of gap all around.

For illustration purposes:

MK4 front control arm:










Ford control arm (I think focus svt):










The MK4 arm has the rear position bushing at the top of the picture (the larger flat bushing that has the H2 sport metal inserts in it). Notice how the ford control arm joints aren't rotated like that. They have the same type of function at almost any ride height.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

I believe that goes for any car. Control arms being parallel=better control.


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## falling angel (Oct 9, 2009)

though there are some cars that have a geometry as such that if the control arms go anywhere past parallel the handling suffers. Ie, you have to raise the car a little so while in turns the suspension can compress a little. 

Don't quote me, but I think this has something to do with the camber being negatively affected past a certain point.


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

yea pictures were bad, nevermind, I'll repost.

The lower you go the more negative camber you can achieve- which is a good thing on our cars...


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

falling angel said:


> though there are some cars that have a geometry as such that if the control arms go anywhere past parallel the handling suffers. Ie, you have to raise the car a little so while in turns the suspension can compress a little.
> 
> Don't quote me, but I think this has something to do with the camber being negatively affected past a certain point.


If the control arms are below parallel it will induce large amounts of bump steer. This is the last thing you want when going into a corner hot and having a bump in it that will cause the car to become un-glued from the road way.


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## ILLA NOIZ (Jul 2, 2007)

I think everyone has to remember that it's an opinion and for the most part - no matter what you like to look at/own, the statements are true.

It falls in the category of "all show, no go"... If the suspension geometry is compromised, then the functionality suffers. So, in theory - it's about looks. For a show car, that's great and obviously for a track car/ driving enthusiast it's bad.

In my opinion - the poke and stretch movement is even worse. It's nothing more that an excuse to install wheels that do NOT fit on the car. :banghead: While some may "like" the look - in this case safety is compromised. :thumbdown:


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

True, but for some cars laying down 400hp+ they need more traction. And the best way for that is wider wheels all around. I know that stretch and poke movement has nothing to do with them tho. That movement came straight from overseas.


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

But there was a reason for it overseas as most of us know... According to regulations you can't use a wider tire than the car came with in certain countries in Europe. So people were buying 10" wide wheels and using stock sized 7" wide tires (as an example).

I like how this thread has become about good handling :thumbup:


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

DougLoBue said:


> But there was a reason for it overseas as most of us know... According to regulations you can't use a wider tire than the car came with in certain countries in Europe. So people were buying 10" wide wheels and using stock sized 7" wide tires (as an example).
> 
> I like how this thread has become about good handling :thumbup:


Most states require the wheel not to be outside the edge of the fender. Too wide and a high speed bump can cause the fender to cut the tire and cause a blow out (def not a good thing at 120+) 

Wider tires def help with putting the power down, as well as proper tire selection for compound. 10 Sec S4's only use 8.5's but with NT01's. 

Weight I think tends to be the biggest factor. 1lb drop in rotational mass = 6lbs of static weight. So you drop 10 lbs per wheel x 4 wheels = 40lbs or rotational mass = 240lbs of static weight.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Yeah I would be more than happy sitting flush with 8.5" all around. The fat fives just dont do it for me anymore


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