# Fuel Pumps



## adam_richard (Oct 17, 2006)

How much of a difference is there between the fuel pumps and how am I to justify the $1000+ for some of the fuel pumps out there when I'm hearing great things about the KMD and Autotech pumps? Is it really worth the $700+ difference? Will a fuel pump do anything on a stage 1 car or do you really need stage 2+ to feel the difference?


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## brandon0221 (Mar 7, 2007)

*Re: Fuel Pumps (adam_richard)*

No one really knows the difference but I live by my motto and you get what you pay for. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

There are a few differences.
First, APR's $1000 pump is a complete replacement fully tested to be working 100%. You keep your stock pump. If this is too pricey you can always send your stock pump to apr and for $650 they will modify it for you and test.
AT and KMD are pump internal replacement kits. You take your stock pump off, replace some internal parts, and reinstall.
As far as design goes, no pump is closer to OEM designs as APR is. Just look at the plungers and you can clearly see the difference. Arin also posted some interesting documentation on pump design and function that further support APR's decision to design the pump the way they did.
APR also has fuel pump specific software designed to work ideally with their pump. I know Revo is working on software for the AT, but its not out yet.
Honestly, I'm quite anal about what goes on my car, and after a LONG time researching the options and reading information I decided on the APR and have no regrets (heh).
My advice to you if you're looking to compare them all is to search. There are quite a few threads, and if you can weed through the muck, you can come up with some good information to help you make your decision.
Good luck!


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## 2zzge (Aug 16, 2006)

*Re: Fuel Pumps (adam_richard)*

i tried to justify it too and couldn't...there is no justification.
even if you used your own pump and sent that in to APR...they're still over-charging IMO.
one _should_ get what one pays for. the price should match the part's performance, quality, and the company's service.

if you're able to justify buying parts that are no better than anything else on the market...at best they are "on par" with their competitors. most of the stuff they don't even make...outsourced with an APR sticker/plate and then a very big price tag.
its just my opinion and it has nothing to do with anyone or anything specifically. it just seems that some would try to "imply" that anything other than apr is "sub-par"...as if apr has set the standard.
pah-leez.
now now...i'm not saying to not 'goapr'...'im just say that one shouldn't have to struggle to justify spending 2-3-4x as much for a part that doesn't perform 2-3-4x as well.
one shouldn't have to pay extra to follow a bunch of sheep.
OK, seriously....
look into it. its your money and before you make it anyone elses, make sure you're getting what you want...everything you want and that you're getting the best deal for it.
if you're willing to spend $1100 to be one of the...erm, to have 'peace of mind', them by all means spend it.
however, there are some very happy ppl on this floating cosmic dirt ball that sleep very well at night knowing they got everything they wanted for a lot less than their 'neighbor' did.

















_Modified by 2zzge at 3:31 PM 3-19-2008_


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## kayaker10 (Jan 10, 2006)

*Re: Fuel Pumps (2zzge)*

I'm also interested in a fuel pump when going with a stage III later this spring. The APR pump and testing does give me higher sense that it would be problem free. However, since I have GIAC, I would be out about $2,000 bucks having to get APR's tuning to take advantage of their pump (I include the loss of the $500 I already paid for my GIAC tune). I guess if you already have APR tuning, then you just have to justify the $1,000 cost in your own mind. 
Unless other tuners can tune to the APR pump, then the APR option is really only worthwhile for their existing customers, or those who are still stock and not chipped yet. 


_Modified by kayaker10 at 2:10 PM 3-19-2008_


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_I know Revo is working on software for the AT, but its not out yet.


Just to clarify our software is being designed and tested to work with all pumps currently available. You will NOT be limited to any one pump in particular.


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## teriba (Dec 4, 1999)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Why does anybody compare the full APR pump to the price of the AT rebuild? At least compare it to the APR rebuild price.


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## GLIzzie (Sep 6, 2007)

so the revo fp file is compatible with ANY aftermarket fuel pump? must be what's taking so long..


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## 2zzge (Aug 16, 2006)

*Re: (teriba)*


_Quote, originally posted by *teriba* »_Why does anybody compare the full APR pump to the price of the AT rebuild? At least compare it to the APR rebuild price.









you can do the math...i did. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (2zzge)*

check some vw parts sites online. iirc you can buy a new hpfp for around $200. send that in to apr and you got yourself a ~$800-850 apr hpfp and your stock pump.. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## b00stin_02917 (Aug 11, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Just to clarify our software is being designed and tested to work with all pumps currently available. You will NOT be limited to any one pump in particular.

The reason why i love you guys... " You will NOT be limited to any one pump in particular". This is why you guys just 0wn! Insted of being limited to just one pump..now you can have your pick and the sw to back it up. It is deffently going to be worth the wait.. thanks guys!


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## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (shortydub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shortydub* »_check some vw parts sites online. iirc you can buy a new hpfp for around $200. send that in to apr and you got yourself a ~$800-850 apr hpfp and your stock pump.. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Exactly...1stvwparts.com...$175...APR build...$650...Total (w/20 shipping) $845...FWIW


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## stefanosTFSI (Dec 30, 2006)

The new Audi S3 (TFSI with K04 turbo) with revo chip and exhaust and intake is almost 350 hp, works fine and has the same fuel pump as the 200 hp K03 TFSI engines.
I don't see the reason to upgrade the fuel pump in cars with K03 turbo.


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## 2zzge (Aug 16, 2006)

*Re: (stefanosTFSI)*

see if you say that after you get stg2 chip








i'm safely running more boost and timing AND no longer have fuel-cuts...i'm still getting used to the feeling.
with the stock pump, i've been forced to drive with less than WOT thru' 3K rpms for over a year now. sometimes i could skate thru' sometimes the car would 'cough' a bit then clear its throat into the higher revs.
but now with KMD's pump kit installed, i'm all giddy like a school girl








whoever reads this, just make sure you know what you're paying for...and actually get everything you expect.
i can buy an OEM pump and install KMD's kit in it for less than APR is willing to isntall their kit....i'm happy with my choice.
noregrets and many others are happy with their choice...i'm sure...as am i.
no one is arguing against anyone, but instead we're suggesting one would make an educated choice and make it for your own reasons.
there are options out there that work. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## LEWXCORE (Jul 7, 2007)

*Re: (2zzge)*

more boost and more timing...hmmm....how much boost are you holding till 6k rpm? i'm still waiting for the revo file to come out for my autotech...


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## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (2zzge)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2zzge* »_
with the stock pump, i've been forced to drive with less than WOT thru' 3K rpms for over a year now. sometimes i could skate thru' sometimes the car would 'cough' a bit then clear its throat into the higher revs.


This is exactly how I have been driving for 6 months now...since adding a 3" TBE to my GIAC software. Man oh Man...I can't wait to get a pump. Just waiting to see what AWE's kit looks like and then head in for the plunge.







Thanks 2zzge. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

As they say, different strokes for different folks.
As you so eloquently put it, I am happy with my decision.


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## GTI_time (Mar 18, 2007)

APR = new pump
autotech & KMD = rebuild kit for stock pump
dont tell anyone but I think the rebuild is the better way to go about this, its about 60-100$ labour to get it done, you save at least 700$ this way! go with that!


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## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (GTI_time)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTI_time* »_APR = new pump
autotech & KMD = rebuild kit for stock pump
dont tell anyone but I think the rebuild is the better way to go about this, its about 60-100$ labour to get it done, you save at least 700$ this way! go with that!

I don't get it...why does everyone and their mom think that APR does not offer a re-build program? Yes...you can get an entire new pump assembly from APR for $1100. Or you can send them your current pump, and for $650...they will test the pump functioning and install their pump internals. Or you can buy a brand new pump from 1stvwparts.com (or equivalent) and send that off to APR...hence an entire new pump assembly with APR internals for $850.
Stop comparing a $250-$350 pump repair kit to a fully new pump assembly. Yes...APR rebuild kit runs $300-$400 more, but not $700-$800.


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*

how bout this i will offer a brand new pump rebuilt with the KMD pump kit for $650







does that beat APR's for 1100???? i am serious here who is interested????


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## jamdub (Aug 1, 2007)

Even if you buy the "new" pump from APR, it is still essentially a rebuilt stock pump with upgraded internals just like the rest of them.


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## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_how bout this i will offer a brand new pump rebuilt with the KMD pump kit for $650







does that beat APR's for 1100???? i am serious here who is interested????

I'm not in the market right now, but if i was i would be all over this. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 2zzge (Aug 16, 2006)

*Re: (shortydub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shortydub* »_check some vw parts sites online. iirc you can buy a new hpfp for around $200. send that in to apr and you got yourself a ~$800-850 apr hpfp and your stock pump.. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

i know what you're saying and if that works for you, good.
it doesn't work for me tho'.
i have my stock pump now...i'm not using both of them at the same time, nor do i plan to sell either of them (which i understand could be a factor for some).
at any point i can replace the stock internals, just as i can set the ECU to stock mode and be on my way...none the wiser.
...or if i change my mind and decide to sell, i can trade+$$ for someone's working OE pump and save even more money.
the point is i can eliminate an imaginary middle-man, do the labor myself (or even pay someone $50) and save myself and potentially someone else some major cash.
if price is the only reason, then IMO...everyone else > APR.
however, there are other factors and one should be thoughtful in their decision...be mindful of what you are and are not paying for. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
some make $ off of manufacturing that they don't even do.
some make $ off of OE parts that are available to everyone.
some make $ off of assembly.
some make additional $ off of the sale.
in effect, some create a "middle-man" that doesn't need to exist for the sole purpose of making an EXTRA point of profit....some could multiple points of profit.
all of that for a part that is on par with every other part on the market...not better.
as for me, i do not need to pay for an imaginary middle-man. = 2zzge saves BIG $
some ppl like to pay EXTRA money...it makes them feel good and secure like a warm fuzzy blanket. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (2zzge)*

true, i was just trying to stick it to apr a little bit and show people that their "complete and not rebuilt" pump can be had for considerably cheaper than what they offer. this whole "you get what you pay" for thing is getting old.. if you pay for an over priced part that is exactly what you get. an overpriced part. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Edwin T. (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: Fuel Pumps (2zzge)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2zzge* »_most of the stuff they don't even make...outsourced with an APR sticker/plate and then a very big price tag.

Do you honestly believe that VW makes all of their own parts? How about Samsung? General Electric? No one makes all of their own parts. It would take away from their core business to do everything in house. And then you would be getting a lower quality and higher priced part. Is that what you want?


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## 2zzge (Aug 16, 2006)

*Re: Fuel Pumps (Edwin T.)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Edwin T.* »_
Do you honestly believe that VW makes all of their own parts? How about Samsung? General Electric? No one makes all of their own parts. It would take away from their core business to do everything in house. And then you would be getting a lower quality and higher priced part. Is that what you want?

let's see if i still pay the same (or fair markup) if i bought direct.








i've already stated that i'm not paying for labor or an imaginary middle-man...that pretty much cuts apr out doesn't it?


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## shue333 (Feb 19, 2007)

*Re: Fuel Pumps (adam_richard)*


_Quote, originally posted by *adam_richard* »_How much of a difference is there between the fuel pumps and how am I to justify the $1000+ for some of the fuel pumps out there when I'm hearing great things about the KMD and Autotech pumps? Is it really worth the $700+ difference? Will a fuel pump do anything on a stage 1 car or do you really need stage 2+ to feel the difference?

this subject has been beaten to mf-ing death. search it and read http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_how bout this i will offer a brand new pump rebuilt with the KMD pump kit for $650







does that beat APR's for 1100???? i am serious here who is interested????

Will you be able to assemble it in a clean room with all the applicable torque specs, replace the seals, the spring and the retainer to parts designed to match the increased flow?
Will you then run it in on a tester that is system correct and verifies flow rates and efficiency? Will you offer a lifetime warranty? Will you provide detailed installation instructions?
Will you serialize them and provide Technical Support 5 days a week 8am - 7pm CST?
Will you be able to verify through patent documents and design philosophy information that the parts you are installing are truly a good design for the long term operation of the pump?


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Will you be able to assemble it in a clean room *no* with all the applicable torque specs*yes*, replace the seals*why replace when it's brand new*, the spring and the retainer to parts designed to match the increased flow?*not my pump design, i would just be an installer*
Will you then run it in on a tester that is system correct and verifies flow rates and efficiency? *no* Will you offer a lifetime warranty?







Will you provide detailed installation instructions?








Will you serialize them and provide Technical Support 5 days a week 8am - 7pm CST?*people get ahold of me all day long to ask questions 24/7*
Will you be able to verify through patent documents and design philosophy information that the parts you are installing are truly a good design for the long term operation of the pump?*again not my design i would just be an installer*

just an offer to save some money


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## 4wealn (Nov 21, 2005)

I have to sat that I love APR but when I got my rebuilt pump I did not get any instructions, I had to figure it out myself and then I posted something myself. I love APR, and with the new fuel pump she pulls really hard, a noticeable differance. Now what I really want is the S3 upgrade and then I would be happy. The guys at APR are really helpful (from what I have encountered, I am not trying to sell anything from them but I would buy what they are selling.


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## coolstrybrah (Feb 25, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
just an offer to save some money









...There have been tons of AT FP's on the market running without a hitch and there is a reason for that. All I can tell you is make sure your cam lobe is in good condition and install it RIGHT and you will be fine no matter what pump you choose.
What should I do with the extra $400 that I saved







...Thats the real question.


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## LEWXCORE (Jul 7, 2007)

*Re: (my07blkgti)*

haha that's what i'm saying dude i'm about to buy 2,000 chicken nuggets


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (my07blkgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *my07blkgti* »_What should I do with the extra $400 that I saved







...Thats the real question.

bitches and booze


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## 2zzge (Aug 16, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

yeah! ber-ber!


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
just an offer to save some money


I understand completely! Inexpensive things are nice for sure.
I was just listing the differences between your 650 and our 1050. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (WetWagen)*

apr pump is the same dimension and probably weigth as well... they all just replace the internals http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I would really like to see your results http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## WetWagen (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: (shortydub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shortydub* »_apr pump is the same dimension and probably weigth as well... they all just replace the internals http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I would really like to see your results http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

No, they are not all the same. I am speaking of the dimensions of the internal components. APR's differ fairly significantly from the AT/KMD pump. 


_Modified by WetWagen at 10:10 AM 3-21-2008_


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## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (WetWagen)*

ahh my bad, i thought you meant external.. you should post pics since you are prolly one of the very few who have taken apart an apr pump. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (shortydub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shortydub* »_ahh my bad, i thought you meant external.. you should post pics since you are prolly one of the very few who have taken apart an apr pump. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Even externally they are different.


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## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
Even externally they are different.

can you please enlighten me as to how and why?


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## WetWagen (Apr 23, 2006)

*Re: (shortydub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shortydub* »_ahh my bad, i thought you meant external.. you should post pics since you are prolly one of the very few who have taken apart an apr pump. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I have not and will not take the APR pump apart. Don't want to lose warranty on that expensive thing. 
I don't need to take the pump apart to see what things look like in there because APR has pics of their pump internals on their website, and there are one or two somewhere on the forums.


_Modified by WetWagen at 6:29 AM 3-22-2008_


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## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (WetWagen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WetWagen* »_
I am speaking of the dimensions of the internal components. 

_Modified by WetWagen at 10:10 AM 3-21-2008_

how do you know this if you have not taken it apart?


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (Arin)*


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (shortydub)*

Here is the top of the AT pump:








And here is the top of the OEM pump, which is identical to the APR pump:


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## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (Arin)*

thanks. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (shortydub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *shortydub* »_thanks. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

No problem. 
The KMD pump looks the same at the AT pump too.
Here is one used by VF. I don't know if it's been revised at all since their kit is not in production yet. I don't have any other photos of it either.


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## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

So, I guess APR is the only company sticking close to the OEM design. Looks like AT, KMD, and VF all went with the non-pivot design. I'm interested to see which style AWE's pump will follow.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_So, I guess APR is the only company sticking close to the OEM design. Looks like AT, KMD, and VF all went with the non-pivot design. I'm interested to see which style AWE's pump will follow.

I believe the VF one is similar stock also but really it doesn't matter one bit.
Every follower failure I've seen or been sent pictures of running many different pumps have all failed 100% exactly the same and the failure is NOT in the center.
Just putting that out there.. food for thought.


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## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

Also failures are spreading and with cars with B revision of intake cam....


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## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (csih)*

did your apr pump fail?


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## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

Yes but as i told from APR it wasnt the pump that failed but it was A revision intake cam that caused this problem


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## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (csih)*

are you using/gonna use the revision or aftermarket(schrick)?


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## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

No i installed B revision OEM camshaft


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## rbradleymedmd (Feb 24, 2007)

*Re: (csih)*


_Quote, originally posted by *csih* »_Also failures are spreading and with cars with B revision of intake cam....

Wait...so the "B" (latest) version is failing now, too? Does that mean that it's going to be a crap shoot whether or not the cam will fail?


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## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_
Wait...so the "B" (latest) version is failing now, too? Does that mean that it's going to be a crap shoot whether or not the cam will fail?









Probably yes time will show things better


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (rbradleymedmd)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rbradleymedmd* »_
Wait...so the "B" (latest) version is failing now, too? Does that mean that it's going to be a crap shoot whether or not the cam will fail?









No the B version is not failing.
The follower is failing and then the tip if the pump is running directly on the cam and destroying the cam.
I've been trying to get this information out for months but no one wants to listen and just starts brand X vs Y crap and starts flinging poo.
No matter what brand of pump you have I'd highly recommend checking your follower at about 6K miles and every 1K miles after that till its worn off the coating and starts to chew up the metal. If you catch it early enough you can save your cam. If its too late you are talking close to a grand in parts not including labor.
I've gotten more phone, calls, emails and links to pictures then I can count running every pump on the planet in all sorts of conditions and programming etc showing worn cam follower. In cases where its an A cam the lobes are worn down and mangled, often deforming to the sides. In the cases of B cams the follower is just worn or if worn through the cam is then scratched from running directly on the tip of the pump.
I have been sent pictures of followers after 40K on them that look brand new, after 5K with a pump obvious wear. I have yet to see a single car on a stock pump have wear or a break like I have seen. Even the failures with A cams look entirely different.
The wear in the center of the follower is always the same regardless of pump being used. Where it breaks is always the same. 
You want to run a pump, buy anyone you want. You want it to last a long time.. check the follower frequently.
Sucks but thats how it is.. stop bickering over which brand is better and be responsible with your mods.. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

Then with every pump they must give 10 cf's lol


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (csih)*


_Quote, originally posted by *csih* »_Then with every pump they must give 10 cf's lol

That would end up costing more then the pump itself.
It sucks but its how it is.
people start checking their followers and the number of people with failures will cut down.
This cam issue has been around for a long time.. no one cared or heard of it till people started putting pumps in but all cams are always the problem..


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## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

What about aftermarket followers?


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (csih)*


_Quote, originally posted by *csih* »_What about aftermarket followers?

Don't knowm we do software not hardware.
I am working on one solution that is part factory part really heavy modification required. It won't be for the faint of heart and I won't be doing anything beyond posting pictures when its done as I can't be put in a position where I am responsible for other people who try it. Lets just say most other fsi cars are not using this kind of cam follower.


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## b00stin_02917 (Aug 11, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

ugh im lucky then... 40k.. pretty sure its a early o6 build and ive had 0 problems with my pump or follower... i guess im going to have to pop the pump off and check it out... 3 weeks of revo stg1 and 0 problems..i can go up a hill in 5th gear at about 1500rpms and just floor it, and it will not cut.. from 1500 all the way to 3k+. Maybe stg2 will tell a different story but we will see.. thanks chris for you insight on these pumps and followers, its just somthing us 2.0t guys have to stay on top of for sure.


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## 2zzge (Aug 16, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_*
........You want to run a pump, buy anyone you want. You want it to last a long time.. check the follower frequently.
Sucks but thats how it is.. stop bickering over which brand is better and be responsible with your mods.. *http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

yeah ber-ber


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (b00stin_02917)*


_Quote, originally posted by *b00stin_02917* »_ugh im lucky then... 40k.. pretty sure its a early o6 build and ive had 0 problems with my pump or follower... i guess im going to have to pop the pump off and check it out... 3 weeks of revo stg1 and 0 problems..i can go up a hill in 5th gear at about 1500rpms and just floor it, and it will not cut.. from 1500 all the way to 3k+. Maybe stg2 will tell a different story but we will see.. thanks chris for you insight on these pumps and followers, its just somthing us 2.0t guys have to stay on top of for sure.

stock pump I would not worry unless you have the early A cam which has problems. All my comments were based on cars with aftermarket pumps not stock ones.


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## ed j (Mar 11, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
stock pump I would not worry unless you have the early A cam which has problems. All my comments were based on cars with aftermarket pumps not stock ones.

This is the reason why I removed my aftermarket fuel pump. I have the "A" cam and don't have the time nor energy to always check these things.
Too bad, the fuel pump made a difference even without a software for it.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (ed j)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ed j* »_
This is the reason why I removed my aftermarket fuel pump. I have the "A" cam and don't have the time nor energy to always check these things.
Too bad, the fuel pump made a difference even without a software for it.

If you have the A cam you are screwed regardless of which pump you have in.


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## nico81 (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
No the B version is not failing.
The follower is failing and then the tip if the pump is running directly on the cam and destroying the cam.
I've been trying to get this information out for months but no one wants to listen and just starts brand X vs Y crap and starts flinging poo.
No matter what brand of pump you have I'd highly recommend checking your follower at about 6K miles and every 1K miles after that till its worn off the coating and starts to chew up the metal. If you catch it early enough you can save your cam. If its too late you are talking close to a grand in parts not including labor.
I've gotten more phone, calls, emails and links to pictures then I can count running every pump on the planet in all sorts of conditions and programming etc showing worn cam follower. In cases where its an A cam the lobes are worn down and mangled, often deforming to the sides. In the cases of B cams the follower is just worn or if worn through the cam is then scratched from running directly on the tip of the pump.
I have been sent pictures of followers after 40K on them that look brand new, after 5K with a pump obvious wear. I have yet to see a single car on a stock pump have wear or a break like I have seen. Even the failures with A cams look entirely different.
The wear in the center of the follower is always the same regardless of pump being used. Where it breaks is always the same. 
You want to run a pump, buy anyone you want. You want it to last a long time.. check the follower frequently.
Sucks but thats how it is.. stop bickering over which brand is better and be responsible with your mods.. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I asked APR about this ages ago but to no avail. It makes sense to me that to achieve a higher pressure without increasing the volume of the pump or the RPM of the cam the force of each pump must be higher therefore more pressure on the lobe.


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## nico81 (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Just to clarify our software is being designed and tested to work with all pumps currently available. You will NOT be limited to any one pump in particular.

How much will the software cost for existing/new REVO customers?


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## VW03Getta (Jan 27, 2007)

can someone post a picture of the factory cam follower? I think i may have a fix for you guys. I made a very interesting observation yesterday.


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (VW03Getta)*

Here is JC's


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## SJA3 (Feb 8, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

How do I know if I have the A or the B version? I just got the car back from the dealer were they replaced my DV that was causing a boost leak, now the car is running as strong as the first day I flashed it with GIAC but with major fuel cuts!


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (nico81)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nico81* »_
How much will the software cost for existing/new REVO customers?

Nothing has been decided yet so I Cannot say just yet.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (SJA3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SJA3* »_How do I know if I have the A or the B version? I just got the car back from the dealer were they replaced my DV that was causing a boost leak, now the car is running as strong as the first day I flashed it with GIAC but with major fuel cuts!

Pull the valve cover and look for the part number, or pull the vacuum pump that runs off the cam and see if its a one piece A cam, or 2 piece B cam.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_Here is JC's


Which of course after I post and say all the ones I have seen have failed the same, his fails different.


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## NoRegrets78 (Jul 6, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Pull the valve cover and look for the part number, or pull the vacuum pump that runs off the cam and see if its a one piece A cam, or 2 piece B cam.

Was it confirmed that pulling the vac pump works to allow you to check? DIY?


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (NoRegrets78)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoRegrets78* »_
Was it confirmed that pulling the vac pump works to allow you to check? DIY?

yes, it drives off the end of the cam where you can see whether its the 1pc or 2 pc cam.
My engine is 90% back together and I'll be putting the cam chain cover on shortly. Once that is on i'll snap a few picks through the hole.


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## coolstrybrah (Feb 25, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Pull the valve cover and look for the part number, or pull the vacuum pump that runs off the cam and see if its a one piece A cam, or 2 piece B cam.

So let me get this straight with the B cam and an upgraded HPFP there should be no issues? but its the Cam A that is giving issues with or without a upgraded FP?


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (my07blkgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *my07blkgti* »_
So let me get this straight with the B cam and an upgraded HPFP there should be no issues? but its the Cam A that is giving issues with or without a upgraded FP?

If you have a bone stock car with an A cam and stock pump it wil more then likely fail
If you have a modified car with an A cam and stock pump it will more then likely fail sooner.
If you have a modified car with an A cam and aftermarket pump.. nothing short of a miracle will prevent your failure.
If you have a stock car with a B cam and stock pump, you should be fine unless you really have bad karma.
If you have a modified car with a B cam and stock pump See previous line about karma
IF you have a modified car with a B cam and aftermarket pump, from my research lately you will have a failure of your follower at some point.
I have seen worn to the point of almost failing as early as 6K miles. I have seen completly broken through at 10k.. I think if you are pushing 15k on a full modified setup you should hit the tables.


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Which of course after I post and say all the ones I have seen have failed the same, his fails different.



Doesn't JC rev his car out to 8000ish? Since this is not something most people do, could that be why it's different?


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## coolstrybrah (Feb 25, 2007)

*Re: (Arin)*

Thanks for the reply Chris! I understand it now. I am at 30k miles and had the cam and cam lobe checked out they were A-OKAY.
I have been revo stage 2 since 15k miles, I guess I should check my follower. The follower is on the FP itself right?
Chris what would you recommend as in an interval for checking the follower if I have Cam B with lets say KMD/AT FP. Or should I stray away from the FP's for now until a solution comes up.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
Doesn't JC rev his car out to 8000ish? Since this is not something most people do, could that be why it's different?

Possibly a reason, we are both reving out to about 8K though (really like 7800) but mine wore like the rest of them not like jeffs. Which just brings in more questions.


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (my07blkgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *my07blkgti* »_Thanks for the reply Chris! I understand it now. I am at 30k miles and had the cam and cam lobe checked out they were A-OKAY.
I have been revo stage 2 since 15k miles, I guess I should check my follower. The follower is on the FP itself right?

If you have the B cam, stock pump and just software honestly I would not be too woried.


_Quote »_
Chris what would you recommend as in an interval for checking the follower if I have Cam B with lets say KMD/AT FP. Or should I stray away from the FP's for now until a solution comes up.

I wouldn't say stay away from it but I would say if you have it be responsible and check. There were so many arguements about pumps for so long that I didn't want to get in the middle. But failures are becoming more and more common and I didn't want to keep my mouth shut anymore.
Unfortunately if i start giving recomended intervals of checks I'll be held accountable for it by someone down the road.
For most though I give the generic check it at 5K and every 1K after that till you replace it.
That is what I'll be doing on my car and what I do on all the cars we have in the office.


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

well i will put a new one in tonight and beat the piss out of it for about 1k before i check it again and see what it looks like


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_There were so many arguements about pumps for so long that I didn't want to get in the middle. But failures are becoming more and more common and I didn't want to keep my mouth shut anymore.

From day one providing as much info possible to avoid damage for anyone has been my concern. I appreciate any legwork done by the community to make everything safer. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] USA (May 17, 2007)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
From day one providing as much info possible to avoid damage for anyone has been my concern. I appreciate any legwork done by the community to make everything safer. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I hate to be blunt but most of your posts on the topic have been completely one side and defending one pump and its design over the other. Every time pumps come up you are quick to point out tip design which in the end seems to play no role in why followers are failing.
When I have mentioned other possible causes/factors that may be leading to early failure I recall you being on my back that I can't be right. I've left those details out because I need to do more research on it, but those ideas are not completely ruled out.
I am sorry if that sounded harsh, honestly I am, but you are specifically one of the people who has caused me not to post as much on this topic in the past and kept it in until now.
But back to the point, everyone needs to stop looking at brand and look at the failures and what might be the cause.


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I hate to be blunt but most of your posts on the topic have been completely one side and defending one pump and its design over the other. Every time pumps come up you are quick to point out tip design which in the end seems to play no role in why followers are failing.
When I have mentioned other possible causes/factors that may be leading to early failure I recall you being on my back that I can't be right. I've left those details out because I need to do more research on it, but those ideas are not completely ruled out.
I am sorry if that sounded harsh, honestly I am, but you are specifically one of the people who has caused me not to post as much on this topic in the past and kept it in until now.
But back to the point, everyone needs to stop looking at brand and look at the failures and what might be the cause.

Chris, according to everything I've read I stand by all the statements I've made and my "quickness" to point out design differences. My comment above was a complement to you for sharing more information which may or may not make what I've said correct or incorrect. My goal is not to simply be correct, it's to share as much information as possible with safety in mind.


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## rippie74 (Sep 26, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
If you have the A cam you are screwed regardless of which pump you have in.

I was doing my 1st time ever check of the dreaded cam follower, it took me 5 minutes to pull it apart... I called the dealership to get a new follower & they said "bring it in let us check it out" 
So the story goes like this... 
*My factory A Camshaft & factory hpfp failed @ 11,000 miles*







(_$3000.00_ worth of warranty work) They had my car for a week


_Modified by rippie74 at 4:35 PM 4-28-2009_


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