# Water in Front Footwell (Cleaning Air Intake Plenum and Sunroof Drains)



## M5forPhaeton (Jan 26, 2006)

I had a problem every time I went through a car wash...yes, yes, I know, I should handwash, but I just can't every time. That problem seemed to have vanished, but I'm wondering if it's related. ANYWAY, minding my own business, a little rainstorm came along and my engine light came on, followed by the transmission going into emergency mode. A little investigating revealed that water is coming into the front passenger footwell. I'm talking enough water to soak the carpet. Thinking it was a fluke...I shop vacuumed the water out and looked for the source. Couldn't find it. Ok, everything was back to normal until it started raining again...I took another careful look and it seems that water is somehow running in where the front right passenger foot would rest (if there was a foot rest there).
Any ideas? Is this something that would be covered under warranty?
Thanks!
AND for my Christian friends...Merry XMAS (and non-christian friends too).


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Yikes...Water in Footwell (M5forPhaeton)*

Hi Kelly:

I can think of two possible causes for your problem. One would be debris (leaves, pine needles, stuff like that) blocking the water drains that are just below the base of the windshield, and the other would be a plugged drainline from the sunroof.

I'm not sure if you want to investigate the problem yourself, or take the car to your VW dealer. It's 50/50 whether or not debris under the hood would be considered a 'warranty' issue or not, so, you might be better off to do a little investigation on your own first. Here's a quick how-to:

*Cabin Air Intake Plenum*
Air is drawn into the heating and cooling system for delivery to the cabin via the large hole that you can see in the first picture below. This is the hole in the middle of the car, directly behind the engine. That hole has (or should have) a neoprene gasket all around it, very similar to the door gaskets. If that gasket is missing, then you have found your problem.

If that gasket is there and it does not appear to be damaged, have a look at the areas on either side of it. See if there is any debris present on top of the black plastic covers. If the top of the covers are both clear, remove the cover (it is fairly easy to do) and inspect underneath. If you have a garden hose handy, run water into either side of the area directly in front of the windshield - but don't run water into the air intake hole in the middle! See if the water runs out freely - it should drain out onto the ground pretty quickly.

While you are in there, have a look at the two pollen filters that are mounted on the underside of the hood - check and see if they are wet. If they are wet, that is pretty good evidence that water is pooling up in the areas on either side of the central air intake.

*Cabin Air Intake*









If everything appears clean on first inspection, remove the large plastic cover that runs across the back of the engine compartment, over top of the cabin air intake. I have posted instructions below. The 'trick' to removing this cover is to first unlock the four fasteners, then lift the FRONT edge of the cover, then pull the cover forward about an inch as you lift it up.

There is also a fully illustrated post explaining how to remove the plenum chamber cover here:
How to remove the Plenum Chamber Cover 

*Removing the debris screen*
_Twist the four fasteners a quarter of a turn each_









*Example of Debris under the Cover* - in this case, pine needles









*It helps to know where the retaining hooks on the bottom of the debris screen (shown above) are before you try to remove it.*


















Once you have removed this cover, inspect for debris in the wells on either side of the cabin air intake (the middle hole). Perhaps try adding water to the side wells with a garden hose, and observing under the car to see if it is flowing out at an acceptable rate of speed. At the same time, inspect the second gasket that seals the bottom of the debris screen to the perimeter of the cabin air inlet (in the middle of the car) to make sure there are no problems with it.

When you re-install the debris screen, pay attention to how you arrange the rubber flaps at each end - this matters. Note how the rubber flaps fit OVER the big cover, as seen in the photo at the very top. Also, be aware that the raised lip on the aft edge of the debris screen fits under the cover that is attached to the base of the windshield. It is fiddley work to get the cover re-installed, so, take your time and take it easy. There is a way to get it in there without force - it just isn't obvious, that's all.









If you have not discovered any problems in the air intake area, then the source of your leak is likely one of the drain tubes that run from the sunroof down to the bottom of the car. There are four drain tubes in total, one in each corner of the sunroof assembly. They run down the two front A pillars and exit just behind the front wheels, and also run down the two rear C pillars and exit into the upper wheel well area, behind the rear wheel well liners.

Three things can (commonly) go wrong with these drain tubes on any car that has a sunroof:
*1)* Tube opening gets plugged by debris up at the sunroof itself.
*2)* Tube comes apart somewhere between where it leaves the sunroof and where it exits the bottom of the car.
*3)* Opening on the bottom of the car gets blocked, so water backs up the tube and leaks out a joint somewhere.

I have no experience troubleshooting sunroof leaks. The best suggestion I can offer is to open the sunroof glass fully, then get a watering can with a narrow spout and pour water into each side of the sunroof frame assembly, outboard of the hole in the headliner. In order to test all four outlets, you will probably have to find a hill somewhere and park the car nose down and nose up, to cause the water to run out the front and rear outlets on each side. However, if you are getting water infiltration into the front passenger footwell, that kind of suggests that there may be a problem with the front passenger corner tube.

I have posted an illustration below that shows the position and routing of the four water drain hoses in each corner of the Phaeton sunroof. Be aware that the rear two hoses drain from the very aft corners of the sunroof frame - in other words, about two inches outboard and to the rear of where the back of the glass panel will be when the sunroof is open. So, you won't be able to see the drain holes that lead to those two rear hoses when you look in from above... hence the need to do a function-check with a watering can.

My guess is that your problem will be found where I have put the red arrow in the illustration below... the hose has probably come out of the socket in the rubber piece that fits into the engine compartment bulkhead. Although it is fairly easy to get access to the outlet of the front two drain hoses (some further disassembly is required, _which I do not recommend you try yourself due to the risk of breaking the windshield_ - see this post for full details: How to remove the Plenum Chamber Cover), it is a nuisance to get to the two rear outlets - you have to remove the rear wheel and then remove the rear wheel well liner. See the photos below for locations of the sunroof drain outlets.

*Sunroof Drain Design Illustration*









To clean the drain lines, you run a thin, flexible cable (a speedometer cable with a 2mm ball glued on the end is perfect) down the hoses from the sunroof - or, up the hoses from the drain hole, whichever is easier. However, if the tube has come apart from the grommet assembly where it passes through the firewall (front) or body structure (rear), cleaning won't fully solve the problem - you will need to do more disassembly of the interior of the car to get access to the rubber grommet that the drain tube terminates at, where it passes through the metal bulkhead. That level of disassembly is beyond the scope of this reply.

Hope this helps...

Michael

*Location of Sunroof Water Drain - front of car*









*Location of Sunroof Water Drain - rear of car*
_This is an excellent picture for the purpose of showing how the drain hose mates with the grommet. The design is similar at the front. Slight disassembly is required to get access to this, although it is faster and easier to get access to the rear one._


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Yikes...Water in Footwell (PanEuropean)*

Here is a photo that shows the detail of how the sunroof drain tube fits into the bulkhead grommet. Although the blue tube is attached to the rubber grommet with a solvent that actually melts the two components together, it is possible to 'blow them apart' with the force of some high pressure car wash sprays. It's not a design problem, it's just basic hydraulics - if there is a slight blockage in the tube, the tube fills up with (non-compressable) water. The car then moves from the water flood area of the car wash to underneath the high pressure blower to be dried off, and the full air pressure of the drying blowers is transmitted to the end of the drain hose by way of the water that has accumulated in the (partially blocked) drain. This is what blows the fittings apart.

It is reasonably easy to get access to the rear tube and bulkhead grommet - all you have to remove is the rear seatback. It is a real nuisance to get access to the front ones - you have to remove the dashboard.









Michael

*Lower end of sunroof drain tube (rear)*


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## fuse (May 30, 2005)

*Re: Yikes...Water in Footwell (PanEuropean)*

Mine had water in the passenger footwell-it turned out to be something loose in the cowl area. Fixed by the dealer and dry ever since.

*Archival Note: * _See this thread for the explanation about how to solve "something loose in the cowl area":_ Water Leakage into Cabin by way of Electrical Box


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## M5forPhaeton (Jan 26, 2006)

*Re: Yikes...Water in Footwell (PanEuropean)*

Tears of joy are streaming down my face. There was so much debris (pine needles, dirt, misc junk) behind the screen that I must say that's the culprit. I've cleaned it all out and will cross my fingers!
You're too good!
Best,
Kelly :snowcool:


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Yikes...Water in Footwell (M5forPhaeton)*

I'm happy to hear that solved your problem.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Yikes...Water in Footwell (M5forPhaeton)*

Just a follow-up post:

There is a rather large drain (it is possible that there may be two drains, one on either side, I am not sure) to allow water to escape from the cabin air intake plenum. It is entirely normal for water to enter this plenum - you will get water in the plenum every time it rains, and every time you wash the car. Normally the water flows to the lowest part of the plenum on either side of the central air intake (pictured above), then escapes out the rather large drain valve that you can see in the pictures below.

The drain valve is about one inch (2.5 cm) diameter, which is more than large enough to allow small bits of plant and leaf matter to escape. But, if you park in an area that has lots of conifer trees (trees with needle leafs), it is possible that pine needles will get stuck in the opening, and then other debris will form around the pine needles and plug up the drain. If this happens, then you may need to look at the exit point of the drain and consider cleaning it there, in exactly the same manner that you would clean a water downpipe from the roof of a house.

There are three pictures below that show you where you can find the air intake plenum outlet. This is quite easy to find when the car is lifted up if you know where to look for it.

Michael

*Cabin Air Intake Plenum Drain Outlet*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Yikes...Water in Footwell (PanEuropean)*

Another possible way to get access to these two drains is to remove the front suspension, the engine, transmission, and driveline, but this is time-consuming to do and should only be considered as a last resort. 

*Getting access to the Plenum Drain - the hard way*


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## GAIJIN (Jan 4, 2005)

*Re: Yikes...Water in Footwell (PanEuropean)*

same problem.
Tried drainlines bellow windshield. didnt work. water everywhere








now will be trieng sunroof drainlines. 
Will keep you updated.
thanks Michael and Kelly
Regards
Zahid


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## GAIJIN (Jan 4, 2005)

*Re: Yikes...Water in Footwell (PanEuropean)*

what if i try to use a compressor and try to force everything out where it came from with air???


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Yikes...Water in Footwell (GAIJIN)*

You would probably wreck everything.


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## GAIJIN (Jan 4, 2005)

*Re: Yikes...Water in Footwell (PanEuropean)*

ok then.  i will be delicate


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## GS340 (Oct 26, 2007)

*trash, leaf, foreign material suck inside Defroster vent.*

I've been dealing with this issue for a while now, april 08. While driving one day with the AC on I heard this sound like a vacuum sucking something up and now that something is stuck behind the defrost vents. 

Anyone have any ideas how to remove whatever is suck there. I've been to the dealer and they told me this issue isn't covered under warranty and they would have to remove the entire dash... Several thousands in labor and they said they aren't sure if the dash would even go back in correctly. They basically refused to look at it.

Sometimes the auto climate control turns on the defroster and hear that something blowing around in the vents. I can't take it anymore. 

Thoughts? suggestions?

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


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## Waterwerkes (Dec 3, 2002)

*Re: trash, leaf, foreign material suck inside Defroster vent. (GS340)*

I've got the same issue with my car. I find that if I drive with the sunroof open, it shakes and rattles around in there... I know just how annoying it is. I'm just in the process of moving my shop to a new location. As soon as it's done, I'm going to try to remove this nuisance. I don't think the entire dash has to be removed. I have a feeling I'll be able to blow it out backwards. If anyone else has a different solution, please let us know.


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: trash, leaf, foreign material suck inside Defroster vent. (GS340)*

I don't understand how an object could get past the dust/pollen filters unless they are not present. I would confirm that they are in place. Maybe a vacuum used at their location could pull the object out.
I just received a new set of filters to install when I do my 60K service. They ain't cheap! The plugs are pretty pricey as well, but at least you only do them every 60K.
Steven


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: trash, leaf, foreign material suck inside Defroster vent. (GS340)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GS340* »_Thoughts? suggestions? 

Yes, my suggestion is that you check the table of contents first. There is quite a detailed post listed there entitled "Cleaning Air Intake Plenum and Sunroof Drains". I have appended your inquiry onto the end of that post.

Michael


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## GS340 (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: trash, leaf, foreign material suck inside Defroster vent. (PanEuropean)*

Bill Britt VW was able to clean out the leafs in the AC system. Leafs were getting sucked in around the wiper arms. When I dropped the car off the we noticed right away how the leaves were entering the system. There was one leaf half way in around the wiper arm. 
the leafs where stuck to the heater core which required removing the blower fans but after they were out of the way it was easy to clean up.
They also tried to clean out the ducts/vents with a vacuum but no success... 
The tech mention this wasn't the first phaeton he has seen with this issue. Last year a piece of foam insulation from the AC system broke off and got sucked PAST the heater core and got stuck INSIDE the dash. He had to remove the dash to get access to the ducts. Good thing the dash removal was covered under warranty..   



_Modified by GS340 at 3:12 AM 11-3-2008_


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## GS340 (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: trash, leaf, foreign material suck inside Defroster vent. (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Yes, my suggestion is that you check the table of contents first. There is quite a detailed post listed there entitled "Cleaning Air Intake Plenum and Sunroof Drains". I have appended your inquiry onto the end of that post.
Michael

Michael, I did...  I even found copies of the manuals online and tried to clean out the vents myself. My issue was the leafs got past the blower fan and where inside the AC system itself. Not something I could remove and clean out myself.  I was REAL lucky the leafs were stuck to/inside the core vs going around the core. Then the he would had to remove the dash to get to the leafs.

You should take my post out of this thread since my problem was inside the dash vs just cleaning out the junk around the debris screen... 

My issue was when the AC/Heater was on you could hear stuff blowing around INSIDE the car inside the vents. 
thanks! 

Robert



_Modified by GS340 at 3:20 AM 11-3-2008_


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## GS340 (Oct 26, 2007)

*Re: trash, leaf, foreign material suck inside Defroster vent. (GS340)*

On last thing.. .I suggest everyone check their debris screens. Make sure the screen is positioned correctly and secure. If anything gets past the screen REMOVE it immediately. Its much easier to remove the screen vs the blower fans or worse the entire DASH!!!!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: trash, leaf, foreign material suck inside Defroster vent. (GS340)*

*Archival Note:* Related discussion - Water ingress to cabin from the air conditioning system. But, the possibility of water getting into the cabin from the air conditioner condensate drains is quite remote. Other causes should be investigated first, probably in about this order:

*1) Damage to underbody of car, missing drain plugs on underbody of car *- see this post: Lifting the Phaeton on a Hydraulic Lift - Precautions

*2) Blocked drain from air intake plenum *(the big orange drain) - the post you are reading now.

*3) Blocked Sunroof Drains* - also described here, in the post you are reading now.

*4) Electrical Box Cover not correctly installed* (applicable to front passenger footwell leaks only) - Water Leakage into Cabin by way of Electrical Box

Michael


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## Richard Steckly (Mar 6, 2002)

*Re: trash, leaf, foreign material suck inside Defroster vent. (PanEuropean)*

Many thanks, Michael. You're assistance is unmatched.








Richard


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: trash, leaf, foreign material suck inside Defroster vent. (Richard Steckly)*

Hello Everyone:

Apropos of the difficulty that some forum members have been having with water drains getting plugged, I thought it might be a good idea to create some instructions about how to clean the sunroof drains.

This post addresses cleaning the FORWARD sunroof drains. There are four drains in total, one in each corner of the sunroof assembly. The forward two are easily accessible. The aft two are not easily accessible because they begin "one sunroof length" aft of the aperture in the roof. 

Anyway - to clean the forward drains, open the hood, then remove the large screen that covers the area behind the engine. The passenger side sunroof drain is easily visible and easily accessible, although you will probably need a flashlight to find it the first time. The driver side drain is more difficult to get at... so, disregard the driver side drain for the moment.

*Remove the screen aft of the engine compartment*









*Where the drains are*









*What the drain outlet looks like (forward passenger side shown)*









Looking in from the top of the car, inspect the tray surrounding the sunroof. Remove any debris you find in it. Look for the drain hole in the tray, which you can see in the picture below. Make sure there is no debris blocking the drain hole.

*Forward Passenger Side Drain Hole*









Then, using either a garden hose or a watering can, pour some water into the _FORWARD PASSENGER SIDE _corner of the tray. Observe and determine if the water flows down the hole quickly, or if it just puddles up and stays there.

If it does not flow down the hole quickly, reach in and "massage" the tip of the rubber outlet on the passenger side of engine compartment. Chances are that it is just stuck together from heat, dust, lack of use. Water should start to flow out of it after you massage the end of the rubber tube.

Once you get water flowing, squirt some household dish detergent into the roof tray and add some more water to rinse this dish detergent down the tube. Watch for evidence of the detergent coming out at the other end of the tube. The detergent will clean out any dust, pollen, etc. in the tube.

Now move over to the driver side of the car. It is quite difficult to get access to the bottom end of the drain outlet on the driver side (you need to remove the windshield wipers and the plastic trim strip that runs across the bottom of the windshield to be able to get your hand in there - see this post: How to remove the Plenum Chamber Cover). But, rather than doing all that disassembly, just wait until the water runs out of the passenger side drain (leaving you with an empty water tray up at the roof), then, aim your garden hose into the driver side drain and give it a good blast of water. That will most likely blow the other end open.

*Cleaning the driver side drain hole*









Now fill up the water tray surrounding the sunroof aperture and confirm that water drains out of both sides (left and right) at the front of the tray.

Once you have confirmed that the two forward drains in the sunroof water tray are functioning properly, move your hose down to the area where the other end of the drain tubes are (just aft of the engine) and fill those areas up with water. It will take about a gallon of water to fill up each side. Look underneath the car and confirm that water is flooding out the drain outlet, which is approximately in the middle of the car.

If any debris floats up (leaves, pine needles, etc.), clean it all up.

Regards,

Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: trash, leaf, foreign material suck inside Defroster vent. (PanEuropean)*

*PS:* For information about how to thoroughly clean out the water drains in the two compartments aft of the engine (perhaps something that should be done *BEFORE *cleaning the sunroof drains), scroll up to the very top of this page.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: trash, leaf, foreign material suck inside Defroster vent. (PanEuropean)*

Just for the record, here is a picture showing where the drain is for the forward driver side (left hand) sunroof drain. 

Before this photo was taken, both windshield wipers were removed, and the plastic cover that runs across the bottom of the windshield was removed.

Michael

*Driver Side (North American Car) Forward Sunroof Water Drain Outlet*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Yikes...Water in Footwell (M5forPhaeton)*

*Archival Note: * related posts that may be of value when troubleshooting water infiltration problems - 
Water leak in cabin footwell
water leaking problem passenger footwell


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## aubergine2004 (Oct 2, 2009)

*cleaning rear sunroof drains*

Hello -- I'm pretty sure I have a rear sunroof drain problem. During a bad storm last week, the liner material between the rear passenger window and the rear window got soaked... plus the floor gets wet.
What is my best plan of action to rectify this situation? Is there something easy I can try before taking on the rear seatback removal?

I also had some blockage in the front main drains which was solved by running warm soapy water throughout the system and vacuming the debris floating up. I guess I should try this for the rears but not sure how.
-paul


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## bobm (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: cleaning rear sunroof drains (aubergine2004)*

I think that you can get this add on from the OEM parts guy:


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## Itzmann (Jan 16, 2006)

*Re: cleaning rear sunroof drains (aubergine2004)*

Had a similar one-time event while going through a car wash. This capped a period of time when the sunroof was squealing as it closed AND had ultimately developed a rather nasty rattle coming from the sunroof area.
Service technician cleaned out the rubber seal and drain channels which were plugged. Gave me a VW rubber/cleaning/lubricant compound for me to use every six months. This solved both the rattle (which was caused, incredibly enough, by the dried out and dirty rubber) and the flooding thing.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: cleaning rear sunroof drains (aubergine2004)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aubergine2004* »_What is my best plan of action to rectify this situation? Is there something easy I can try before taking on the rear seatback removal? 

Hi Paul:

There is a reasonably comprehensive post about cleaning sunroof drains at this link: Water in Front Footwell (Cleaning Air Intake Plenum and Sunroof Drains). Although most of the conversation and all of the photos deal with the front two sunroof drains, the concepts are identical for the ones at the rear.

In a worst-case situation, you might have to remove a few of the fasteners that hold the forward portion of the rear wheel well liners, and stick your hand in there and 'massage' the rubber teat that is the distal end of the rear sunroof drains. It is possible that debris has accumulated at the bottom of the tubing, and this is preventing the rubber teat from opening up and letting the water out.

The photo below shows where the drain line passes through the aft portion of the rear cabin door aperture. It exits on the other side, however, we can't see the exit because of the fabric/hardboard wheel well liners installed in the two rear wheel wells. You should be able to just remove a few fasteners (Torx 25, I believe), and that will enable you to get your hand in there and feel around.

Lift the suspension system up to the highest setting before you begin work, that will increase the clearance between the rear tires and the wheel well liners.

Michael

*Rear Sunroof Drain Exit Point (inside of vehicle)*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Yikes...Water in Footwell (M5forPhaeton)*

Hello Everyone:

There is an additional location in the car that could possibly cause water leakage into the front passenger footwells, The possibility of leakage from this location is remote, and this location should only be checked after you have checked for leaf debris in the air plenum under the wiper motors (far and away the most common cause of water problems), and after you have checked the sunroof drains to ensure that they are operating properly (the second most common cause of water problems).

This additional location is the two water drains that are attached to the evaporator pan at the very bottom of the main HVAC unit. There is a post that provides more information about these drains at this link: Water ingress to cabin from the air conditioning system.

On an entirely different matter, there is a very informative post about possible water infiltration into the passenger footwell via the electrical box that is under the hood - that post is here: Water Leakage into Cabin by way of Electrical Box.

So, to sum up, you have numerous possibilities for water leakage. None are design faults, the leakage is caused by either buildup of debris or failure to properly close something up or attach something correctly following service. In order of probability, here are the things to look for:

*1)* Leaf debris in the cabin air intake plenum (the beginning of this post explains how to locate the plenum, remove the cover, and clean out the debris).
*2)* Blocked sunroof drains (about halfway down this post you will find the explanation about how to clean these drains).
*3)* Improperly fastened cover on electrical box under the hood (discussed at this post: Water Leakage into Cabin by way of Electrical Box).
*4)* Loose connection of drain line to evaporator pan drain spigot (discussed at this post - Water ingress to cabin from the air conditioning system).

Michael


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: Yikes...Water in Footwell (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael,
You forgot to mention missing rubber caps under the car... 

You are absolutely correct, that should have been the first thing on the list. See this post: Lifting the Phaeton on a Hydraulic Lift - Precautions 

Michael


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## Brandini (May 9, 2008)

*Re: Yikes...Water in Footwell (Zaphh)*

Greetings. After torrential rain last night I find myself on the forum this morning. Braking at a red light caused a small splash of water to spill out from under the rear, passenger side seat. After reading this thread I suspect the sunroof drains. Would it be possible to have the relevant images re-hosted? Thank you for all the support you provide us. 
Brandini


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## aubergine2004 (Oct 2, 2009)

*Re: Yikes...Water in Footwell (Brandini)*

Michael:
Thanks for all your help on the water issue. My car is draining much better now. Reaching inside the rear wheel wells and messaging the nipples really worked.

-Paul


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Yikes...Water in Footwell (aubergine2004)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aubergine2004* »_ ...messaging the nipples really worked.

It takes all the self-discipline I can muster to leave that line alone...








Glad you got the problem solved.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Yikes...Water in Footwell (Brandini)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Brandini* »_Would it be possible to have the relevant images re-hosted? 

Hi Brandini:
All the images appear when I look at this post using my computer.
It is possible that your computer's security settings are set such that your browser is not displaying images that are hosted at a third party URL. Some of the images on this thread are not embedded into the content hosted on vwvortex.com, instead, the images are hosted on an imageserver (dubfoto.com), and the message here contains a URL that points to the image at this third site.
Many 'advertisement blocking' programs work by preventing images that are hosted elsewhere than the domain you are looking at from appearing. My guess is that this is what is causing your problem.
Michael


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## phateon (Mar 13, 2009)

my 2004 V8 had water in the driver's well when parked in my driveway pointed down. In my case it was the sunroof. The channels were cleared on both sides and there was not enough water to cause damage. it is important to find out where the water is coming in from. at lesat insurance covered the damage!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Guys: 

Whatever you do, *DON"T TRY TO BLOW OUT THE SUNROOF DRAINS USING COMPRESSED AIR!* 

All you will do is cause the hose that leads from the sunroof rain tray to the nipple on the forward firewall (for the front two drains) or the nipple on the forward face of the rear wheel housing to disconnect. Then you will be in a world of hurt, because 100% of the water will now drain into the cabin. 

To clean sunroof drains - and most especially, to clean BLOCKED sunroof drains - you have to get access to the nipple, then just manipulate it (squeeze it open) to let the crap run out. Then, gently flush the system with water. You can use a household plant watering tool to pour water into the sunroof rain tray to flush the system out. 

The first page of this post explains how to get access to the forward two sunroof drain nipples - the ones that exit forward of the engine firewall. You don't need any tools to get access to these. 

To get access to the aft two nipples, you need to remove the rear wheel well liner (implies also removing the rear wheel). Once you do that, you can easily get access to the drain nipples. 

Please see this post for a tale of woe caused by a mechanic who tried to blow out the sunroof drains with compressed air: Water leak in cabin footwell. 

Michael


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## vwkillingme (May 9, 2011)

*sunroof leak*

....hey guys I need help.......just purchased a 2004 Phaeton and found out I had a sunroof drain problem on the passenger side, after owning the car for 6 weeks, and it's now at the dealer. I tried to start the car after getting gas and nothing happened. Tried a few more times, even tried turning key all the way to the left and then back and nothing. After calling AAA the car's electrical system went bat **** crazy, it even tried to start the car with the key in the neutral position. I disconnected the left rear battery and noticed the smell of burning wires. I noticed there was a class action lawsuit on this issue affecting the Audi A8, but I wasn't part of this for obvious reasons. My question is, will I be resonsible for the repairs or can I turn it into my insurance under water damage, or will VWOA help me. I don't know what the issue is just yet, but after reading on here about the KESSY units, it sounds like what I experienced, any help would be greatly appreciated...Thanks


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

In the 7 years that I have been moderating the Phaeton forum, I have never heard of an electrical fire in a Phaeton. I have no idea what could be causing the problems you have encountered, but I am pretty sure it is not a design or manufacturing problem.

There is no commonality between a Phaeton and an Audi 8 series - the two cars are totally different in every way. The Phaeton is a fraternal twin to the Bentley Continental, not to the Audi.

As for the leaking sunroof (something totally unrelated to your electrical problems), have a look at the Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category), in that list you will find a link to a post that explains how to clean sunroof drains.

Michael


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## vwkillingme (May 9, 2011)

...there wasn't fire, just the burining smell wires from what I think was the starter turning over and over like a machine gun. I did have A LOT of water in the passenger cabin front and rear, and the sunroof drain was blocked. I opened it yesterday right before this happened after testing it to make sure it was clogged, and it seemed like it was sealed at the tip in the engine compartment, but after squeezing the nipple like end the water started to flow freely. I don't know whether the Phaeton is covered by the class action or am I going to have to hire an attorney. I did check the form and that's where I saw the problem with the KESSY, which after reading is how my car reacted. I had the "system fault message and brake failure and even the height adjustment failure, which was describe with kessy failure.


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## vwkillingme (May 9, 2011)

...ps...... I used your diagrams to test the sunroof drain, thanks!!!!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

The best guess I can offer for the cause of what sounds like overheated wiring (this based on your clarification above) is that you may have manually cranked the starter for too long a period of time.

The starting system in the Phaeton (or, for that matter, in any car) is not designed for continuous duty. When you start the car normally - by twisting the key clockwise, or by pressing the START button - the starter begins a timed duty cycle that will terminate either when the engine starts (typically 1 to 3 seconds later) or when a time limit is reached.

When you invoke the 'emergency start' routine by rotating the ignition switch fully clockwise, fully counter-clockwise, then fully clockwise again, you over-rule the timed cycle - the starter will remain engaged as long as you hold the key in the fully clockwise position.

Sounds to me like you kept the starter engaged too long.

The various messages that you describe - suspension fault, etc. - are nothing more than evidence of a discharged battery.

Michael


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## vwkillingme (May 9, 2011)

..thanks again for the info, and here's where my dealer is at with my car. THEY CAN'T GET THE KET OUT OF THE IGNITION!!!! lol!! I told them to take out the black rubber plug under the passenger side footwell, but they didn't yet, and I told them to check for any damage underneath that would let water in, and if they found nothing, please replace the battery. They keep telling me they can't do anything until they get the key out. I had to disconnect the left rear battery to stop the dash from flashing, it was disconnected overnight and has now been reconnected. I referred them to the thread regarding "system fault workshop" on here, but who knows if they looked. I'm not too encouraged by what they are telling me. Is there a way to get the key out if you can't pull it out, turn it at all??? I know there was significant amount water in both the front/rear cabin footwells, enough to soak all carpet, mats, etc., and then the system faulty workshop message, could this all be a coincidence, and could it just be a dead battery, or is the kessy unit shot as well as the battery, and why is the key stuck in the ignition???? This is why I stopped buying VW's ten years ago......


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

You can get the key out by pressing with a ballpoint pen on the small hole next to the key, and turning the key out at the same time.

I would be worried about giving my car to a garage that does not know about this...

The kessy module is under the driver carpet, not the passenger carpet. From what you describe, it is probably corroded. Check out for missing plugs underneath the car and try to find a competent dealer...

P.


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## vwkillingme (May 9, 2011)

..I just called the dealer and they told me the key that's in there is the VALET key, it was the only one they gave when I bought the car from them, so it's the only one I have, don't know if that's a problem. What if they can't get the key to turn, is there any other way to remove it short of taking out the ignition. The dealership is a relatively new VW dealership, so I'm trying to give then the benefit of the doubt. I had water on the passenger side would this still affect the kessy or is this a simple dead battery issue, and would replacing the battery corrct the key problem, but which battery would they replace the left one which still seems to be working, although I don't know how much life is left, or the right side battery which I don't know if it's dead or alive.


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

vwkillingme said:


> ..I just called the dealer and they told me the key that's in there is the VALET key, it was the only one they gave when I bought the car from them, so it's the only one I have, don't know if that's a problem. What if they can't get the key to turn, is there any other way to remove it short of taking out the ignition.


Yes: do what I said. Pressing on the small recess will allow the key to turn and get the key.


> The dealership is a relatively new VW dealership, so I'm trying to give then the benefit of the doubt. I had water on the passenger side would this still affect the kessy


If you have a LHD, the kessy is on the driver side. If you are in the UK, I don't know, but I would guess it is on the passenger side (left side of the car).


> or is this a simple dead battery issue, and would replacing the battery corrct the key problem, but which battery would they replace the left one which still seems to be working, although I don't know how much life is left, or the right side battery which I don't know if it's dead or alive.


I would say that it does not sound like a dead battery...


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## vwkillingme (May 9, 2011)

...they got the key out finally, and I asked them if they checked both batteries and the servce guy told me he THINKS they did, but he'll make sure. He did tell me they saw water coming from the cowl?? I asked how that would happen and he told me if I had the vent open for air to circulate from the outside it would let water in. I just said HUH????? I do know this dealership does NOT have a Phaeton tech, so I'm screwed here, it's poke and hope from the looks of it. They do know there's water in the cabin and tey told me it's gonna cost $750 to just CHECK the modules, and more if they need replaced. I told them if there's water coming in they need to tell me where and how.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

vwkillingme said:


> ...I just called the dealer and they told me the key that's in there is the VALET key, it was the only one they gave when I bought the car from them, so it's the only one I have, don't know if that's a problem.


It shouldn't make any difference whether the key is a valet key or not, however, be aware that not all Phaetons are equipped with the little hole by the ignition switch to allow manual release of the ignition key. Seems that provision of that little hole violated a US FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard) - a person could, in theory, remove the key while the engine was running, and that is a no-no - so, the little hole was deleted from models produced for export to the USA with effect from VIN number WVWAF63D348012171. VW TB 48 04 01 refers.

Note also that if you do have a release hole for the key, and your KESSY module has been replaced with one containing software higher than version 6400, you need to step on the brake pedal to get the key out. VW TB 94 06 22 (Technical Solution 2010565) refers.




vwkillingme said:


> ...I had water on the passenger side, would this still affect...


Yes, the Central Electrical Controller (controller 09) is installed under the floor in the front passenger footwell. But, note that it is not installed under the floor itself (under the flat part of the floor), it is installed fairly high up on the sloping front part of the passenger footwell, where the passenger would rest their feet if they stretched their feet out. So, you might want to have a look in there. Be aware that it would take a heck of a lot of water - I mean a real flood - to get that central electrical controller wet.

There are also a number of high-amperage, self-resetting circuit breakers under the driver seat (under the carpet). Water damage to these could perhaps be the cause of your problem.

If I were you, I would pull out the two front seat carpets and have a look at what is going on underneath there. If the problem is water damage, it has been caused by a heck of a lot more water than what could ever be expected to leak from a sunroof drain. :facepalm:

Michael


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## vwkillingme (May 9, 2011)

..thanks, they're tearing the car apart as I speak. I was told there might be water coming from another source. the amount of rain we've been having is ridiculous, it's something like 7 or 8 inches over the normal amount for the last 2 months. It's come with flooding and all the wonderful things rain brings, andi t's probably been getting in for the last 3 weeks almost nonstop, and add car washes when it stopped raining, it could be a lot of water. I had the floor mats out of the car and in the house after vacuuming them and after 3 days they were still damp. I've never seen a car with the amount of water that was in this one.... I just hope I can get my insurance company to throw a few dollars towards this.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Have a look at this post, it might contain the answer to your problem:

Water in Cabin Footwell (Leakage via Electrical Box in air intake plenum)

Michael


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

Whatever you do, yo​u must dry it out. Biological growth will follow if you don't. There are machines that can remove moisture from the environment. This Audi suffered the same ailment:
http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?t=766671

I would total the Audi as it is not safe to be in even after it was cleaned. Good luck.

Damon


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## vwkillingme (May 9, 2011)

...dealer still has no clue, haven't told me anything useful. The insurance company going out tomorrow afternoon to look at it, there's a conversation I'd like to hear, "what's wrong?, don't know!, what kind of car is this?? Look the carpets wet, hmm, something happened, but what?? don't know, we can't even get the carpets up to check anything. Three days and the dealer keeps talking like they haven't even looked at it. You guys have given me more information on possible trouble. two things I know for sure, an excessive amount of water in the front/rear passenger side foot wells and the electrical system went completely nuts, and I didn't cause either to happen. I do know I'm not going to have the car this weekend, or at least until the middle of next week. My question is, should this take this long to find the problem?? They've had it three days. Granted it took them two days to get the key outta the ignition, geeez. I can't even get a it could be this from them, or what they're even looking at as the problem. Anyone wanna buy a 2004 Phaeton with 43,000 miles...CHEAP!!!!!! And thanks again guys for all your help. I just wish you could talk to them Michael, they really don't seem to have a clue.........


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

OK, enough of the whining, already.

If you want to solve a problem with a piece of machinery - whether that is a vehicle, an aircraft, or a computer, it does not matter - you have to approach the problem in a rational and analytical manner, following what is known as 'paths of influence', rather than 'shotgunning' the problem by going at it from every possible direction.

The first step in the process is to gather information about the system you are trying to troubleshoot. In your case, it appears that the problem lies in the vehicle electrical system - not the start control system (the KESSY), but the electrical system.

There are two electrical system (specifically electrical system) components in the vehicle that could be affected by flooding in the passenger cabin. One is the central electrical controller, which is located behind the forward face of the front passenger footwell. The other is a set of high current, self-resetting circuit breakers that is located under the driver seat. There are other electrical components on or under the cabin floor - such as the PTC heaters for the rear seat footwells, and the Keyless Entry and Start System (KESSY), but your problems don't appear to be confined to these components, so disregard them for the moment.

You have indicated that the flood in your vehicle took place within the front passenger footwell. It therefore makes sense that you should first have a close look at the central electrical controller. This is the component that would have the most significant influence on the vehicle electrical system, and also the component that would most likely be affected by a flood in the area you described (front passenger footwell). I have posted a picture of it below.

Next thing you should have a look at - based on 'paths of influence' - is the electrical box (fuse and relay box) that is on the right hand side of the car, under the air intake plenum, just ahead of the firewall. It is known that if the cover has been removed from that box and not correctly reinstalled, water can infiltrate into that electrical box and some of that water can leak into the cabin. But - and this is a big but - there is no possible way that water infiltration arising from a loose cover on that box could create a 'flood'. You might get, at most, 2 or 3 ounces of water coming into the cabin, and that would only happen if you ran the car through an automatic car wash (tunnel wash) when the cover on that electrical box was loose.

I gave you a link a couple of posts further up that provides more information about the cover on that electrical box.

---------------------------------------------------------------

So - have a look at those two issues, in the order that they are presented, and find out if one of them is the cause of your problem. Get the VW dealer to provide you with a diagnostic scan of the vehicle, and post it here. The diagnostic scan will explicitly identify the cause of the problems you are having.

You mentioned that your VW dealership is a relatively new dealer. Although it certainly helps to have experience working on a Phaeton when trying to diagnose Phaeton problems, be aware that the Phaeton electrical system (and components) are remarkably similar to the electrical system and components in the same model year Touaregs. The most significant difference between the two cars is that the components are in different locations. This will obviously affect the diagnostic process when trying to determine the source of flood damage.

-----------------------------------------------

Lastly - a couple of points at a more personal level:

*1)* Be sure that you are levelling with all of us and telling us the whole story. From what you have described, it sounds a lot like the sunroof of your car was left open during a heavy rainstorm or similar. Water infiltration from the sunroof drain system alone could not account for all the problems you have described, and the fact that you were able to drain water from the nipple on the front firewall of the car proves that the sunroof drain tubing is connected (not broken) and working properly.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but: My experience here in the forum - over 6 years of moderating and about 18,000 posts - is that every time someone starts talking about a lawsuit, an attorney, or a class action in their first post on a subject, its usually because they have screwed something up themselves and they know it. So, if you left the sunroof open and the cabin got flooded, fer' Pete's sake be honest and tell us. We're not the VW warranty adjusters or the insurance company, we are fellow Phaeton owners who are trying to share our collective experience with the car to help you solve a problem.

*2) *Take the time to read and consider the comments and links to other posts that forum members have given you before you respond. We are an analytical bunch here - we have to be, it's the only way to solve problems in a text-only communication environment. If someone refers you to another source of information (another thread), read the darn thread carefully and let us know if you think it does or does not apply to the problem you are having.

*3) *We work on a first name basis here, as you may have noticed. Do us the courtesy of signing your posts with your first name.

Michael


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## vwkillingme (May 9, 2011)

..first off I did nothing to make this happen, that is no sunroof open, or windows left open, and since the water is ONLY on the passenger side, and I did find the clogged sunroof drain thanks to you guys, nothing than what I told you has happened, and I'm not whinning. What is happening here is the dealership is only six months old and obviously has no idea what they're doing. I even referred them to this thread several times as a jumping off point, but they haven't taken any advice. I have yet to get VW invovled, but there is a file opened. I wanted to give the service department a chance to get this done beofre getting VWOA into it. I think I've kept a sense of humor through this ordeal, and I've thanked the members here for their input. I can't get the dealership to work any faster on this and that's where my frustration comes in, does it really take a day and half to remove the interior??? The only certain thing I've been told was I won't have the car by the end of the week, as they haven't found the issue, order parts, etc. i do know that if I had some of the people here involved I'd probably be driving my car by now, but since I'm at the mercy of a dealership w/o a trained Phaeton tech the only thing I can do is continue calling them, but all that does is fuel my frustration because of the lack of info I get from them. I'm probably going to have to go there tomorrow if nothing else happens today. It shouldn't take a week to start the process of finding the trouble. I have appreciated everything people have told me and relayed it to the dealer, which has lead to zero action on their part, and that's where I'm at right now. I don't want to pay thousands for something wasn't due to neglect, but to what looks to me at least as some type of manufacturer fault, is that so hard to understand ??


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## vwkillingme (May 9, 2011)

..and I wish I could tell you guys what they've done at the dealership, but they won't even tell me. I keep getting "when we know something we'll let you know" from my service rep., and the system under the glove box looks like it might be the answer, based on where the water was coming in. I didn't know there was anything there. I'll let them know today and find out if they checked it, thanks again......Rock (my name).


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

Rock,
Aside from the service advisor, have you tried to talk to the technician directly? Where is the dealership? Can you also update your profile?
Thanks
Damon


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## vwkillingme (May 9, 2011)

...never asked to speak to the tech, and never thought to ask. I'm in Pittsburgh and the car is at Cochran VW. Haven't called them today was gonna wait until after the insurance adjuster leaves today. Good call on the tech, just wonder if they'll let me talk to him.


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

Rock,
I would insist that you speak to the tech. Print out Michael's recommendations including any info on the subject and simply go over it with the tech, not the advisor. If they do not have a Phaeton tech., ask for the most experienced Touareg tech. If fact, insist on it. On these warranty issues, it is imperative that you work with the tech and service advisor to get all the facts before getting the adjuster involved because misleading or inaccurate information can lead to the claim being denied.
Damon


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## vwkillingme (May 9, 2011)

...insurance adjuster just left the dealer and told me as of now I'm S.O.L. cause the dealer can't tell him how the water got into the car, they don't know. He did tell me they have the carpet up and when he moved the padding it was still dripping water. It looks like I'm gonna be on the hook for these repairs unless VWOA comes thru, but I doubt that, and I'm starting to feel like the dealer is waiting for everything to dry out and that miraculously fixes the problem. I will be going up to the dealership tomorrow to get answers in person, enough of this phone tag garbage. I'll also be on the phone to VWOA........


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Another idea*

Rock,
In addition to Michael's excellent comments and recommendations, there's something else that puzzles me: you indicated that you are stuck with this dealership, yet you are in Pittsburgh (a city I know well) where there are several VW dealerships. While I'm not in a position to opine on Cochran VW's Phaeton expertise (I was not even aware that they had acquired a VW franchise, they are best known as one of the largest GM dealers in the Midwest), there is at least one VW dealer with whom I'm well acquainted and who employs an excellent Phaeton tech: I'm referring to Day Imports (Audi and VW), http://www.importsbyday.com/ 

I've known them for many years, and I've posted about them in the thread "dealers that we Phaeton owners recommend" on this forum. If your primary objective is to resolve the problem, I'm sure that Service Manager Keith Smith and Phaeton Tech Larry Hanlon would provide excellent and knowledgeable service.
Stefano


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## vwkillingme (May 9, 2011)

...bought the car from Cochran, so it stood to reason that's where I'd get it serviced, thru my own ignorance I didn't realize that this car really needs a tech qualified on it. Tomorrow begins their attempt in earnest so hopefully they'll redeem themselves and prove that my fears are unfounded. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I've expressed to them my reservations about what's transpired and also told them they'd probably be hearing from VWOA, so now I wait.


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

If you read Jeremy Clarkson's review of the Phaeton in this post http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...he-Phaeton&p=71323987&viewfull=1#post71323987 you will see that the Phaeton is no VW. It is a Bentley (developed and paid for by VW) that therefore needs special trained technicians to work on such cars.

My advice would be to do yourself (and your car) a favour by taking it away from your current dealer before they damage it, and get some seriously trained Phaeton techs to work on it.

It is obviously not because they sold a car that they can work on it. Especially on this car that was not built to be a VW.


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

Doesn't VWOA only allow certified Phaeton techs to work on the car?
Damon


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

dlouie said:


> Doesn't VWOA only allow certified Phaeton techs to work on the car?
> Damon


Damon:

i assume that was essentially true when the Phaeton was first introduced in NA. However, as they have aged and VW has discontinued selling them here, I think anything can happen. If a VW dealership has a Phaeton certified tech on the staff, I'm sure our cars get him. However, if there are none available, I assume we get the "best" mechanic available, albeit not necessarily trained for the Phaeton. Many repair tasks on the Phaeton, I'd be happy to trust to a "good" mechanic. However, the problem discussed in this thread is not one of them. 

When I purchased mine, I called Phaeton Customer Care and asked which dealerships in the Orlando area had a certified Phaeton tech on the staff. They had that information and luckily both dealerships close to me did have a Phaeton certified tech. In case Phaeton Customer Care's database is outdated, it wouldn't hurt to also ask the dealer about this before starting a repair job. 

Jim X


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

Jxander said:


> ...
> Many repair tasks on the Phaeton, I'd be happy to trust to a "good" mechanic.
> ...
> Jim X


This is true, provided the "good" mechanic has the correct information. If he relies on his extensive knowledge, in a task as simple as taking a wheel off and putting it back, he will then torque the lug nuts at 90Nm which is standard for all cars.

On the Phaeton, however, which is designed to run at speeds nearing 200mph, the lug nuts torque is 120Nm, i.e. 33% more than the standard...

Then, how would he know that before lifting the car, he should shut down the suspension by pressing on the two buttons at the same time for more than 5 seconds ?

No "good" mechanic would know this if he has not had a Phaeton training course first, and would a "good" mechanic go and check in his non-existent Phaeton manuel the torque he should apply on something as simple as wheel nuts ?

So you see, the Phaeton is special in many aspects, down to changing a wheel...

P.


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## vwkillingme (May 9, 2011)

...talked to the dealer about this, and they told me their tech is close to finishing the training on the Phaeton, something equivalent to one course for certification. There's a Bentley dealer less than a mile away, if nothing changes early next week I'll have multiple decisions to make.


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## BustaCuts (Mar 11, 2007)

what you have described is basically the exact situation i am/have been in. march 21st is when i dropped my car off. :banghead: the only difference is that i was able to turn it into my insurance under comprehensive (water damage). 

i had nearly the same symptoms, car wont start, key stuck in ignition, water leak from sun roof, alarm would go off every few minutes, crazy fault codes, etc. once i brought it into the dealership, they didnt really want to deal with it since they didnt know where to start. my insurance initially wanted to total the car out. they have been back in 4 times to add onto the supplemental coverage. as soon as the replacement carpets arrive from germany, i should be getting my car back, 2 months later. (fingers crossed).

in a nutshell, here is what they replaced:
-kessy
-2 batteries
-sun roof
-headliner
-carpet
-misc wires/connectors/housing/etc

close to $10,500. 

my car is at the vw dealership in oakland, ca. you may want to have your tech give them a call. this honestly sounds like the exact same problem. 

good luck!

-chris


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## vwkillingme (May 9, 2011)

.that's seems to be exactly what happened to my car. I'm trying to get the insurance company invovled and VWOA, but both parties tell they can't do anything until the dealer finds out how the water got into the car. I'm gonna give them til the middle of this week, what's the name of the dealership in Oakland ? This sounds just like the nightmare I'm trying to avoid, but it seems like the road I'm heading down. The dealership to this point has no idea what's wrong, what caused it, or how to fix it. Thanks for your information. I was beginning to think I was the only one going through this situation.


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

Rock,
You need to speak to the technician and guide him to the potential causes of the leaks of the leaks. There has been little in terms of photo documentation of these leaks on the Phaeton but there plenty for other VW products. Here are two expamples:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?2115848-Golf-GTI-Rear-Sunroof-Drain-Fix-DIY
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?2839003-DIY-Golf-GTI-Jetta-Front-Sunroof-Drain-Fix
I suspect that it is a clogged or disconnected sunroof drain tube. This design shouldn't be any different than any other VAG product (plenty of docs floating around). Have a good look at the pics in the above links. Even though the tube may still be connected, the fitting may distort due to age and develop a leak. If the drain was clear and free flowing, gravity would have pulled most of the water to the exteior of the car but when the tube is clogged, the water backs all the way up the tube and out the compromised fitting. All that water is now flowing into your 'A' or 'C' pillars eventually finding its way to the lowest point, which is the floor pan where sensitive electronics reside. You would be surprised how much water can be drained from the sunroof channels. Given the fact that the connections are weak, I would be careful not to shove anything through the tube to clear it. Don't even think about using compressed air. Here's an interesting dilema. Rock, you had stated that your drain tubes were clogged and then you cleared them and now water appears to flowing freely. Your tech probably is going to do the same test and since it's flowing, he's going to say that the drain system is not the issue thus he can't find the leak and your insurance won't give you the time of day. When the car is fixed and the tube gets blocked in the future, you'll have another leak and the modules will be ruined again. WORK WITH THE TECH ON THIS BEFORE CALLING THE ADJUSTER BACK! By all means still check the other potential leak areas.

It's interesting that many other car makes have similar issues. The Mercedes R170 has a central locking module/pump in the trunk that is susceptable to similar damage. In that case, the water follows the path of the wiring harness straight into the unit. The fix is to reposition the unit upside down so that the harness connector is on the bottom. Water can't travel up hill. The other precaution is to place the unit in a sealed up plastic bag.

OK, that leads me to another question for all of you. Would it be prudent to put our modules located on the floor in sealed plastic bags? Should there be any concerns about heat generated from these units? Do they require cooling? Thoughts?

Good luck and good day.

Damon


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## madreg98 (Jun 1, 2009)

Damon,

When Josh and I brought my 2004 back to life (extensive interior water damage, 60K service, etc) we sealed the kessy in a plastic bag. It has not proven to be a problem in the last two years.

Dennis


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

madreg98 said:


> Damon,
> 
> When Josh and I brought my 2004 back to life (extensive interior water damage, 60K service, etc) we sealed the kessy in a plastic bag. It has not proven to be a problem in the last two years.
> 
> Dennis


Dennis,

Where again were your source of leaks? Was the source ever confirmed.

Thanks

Damon


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## vwkillingme (May 9, 2011)

.talked with my insurance adjuster and he told me he spoke to the dealer and they told him the leak is coming from the cowl, which completely threw me. The dealer hasn't told me this, and I spoke to them this morning. The adjuster went on to tell me he's going to get more info and will let me know, if this is the problem the insurance won't fix the cowl problem, but they will take care of all resulting damage. I just can't figure out for the life of me where the front cowl could have a leak, is it an vent stuck open, or is there something else there that would allow water to come into the car ??


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

If the present hypothesis is that the leak is coming from the cowl, have a look at these posts:

Water in Cabin Footwell (Cleaning Air Intake Plenum and Sunroof Drains)
Water in Cabin Footwell (Leakage via Electrical Box in air intake plenum)

Michael


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## BustaCuts (Mar 11, 2007)

vwkillingme said:


> .that's seems to be exactly what happened to my car. I'm trying to get the insurance company invovled and VWOA, but both parties tell they can't do anything until the dealer finds out how the water got into the car. I'm gonna give them til the middle of this week, what's the name of the dealership in Oakland ? This sounds just like the nightmare I'm trying to avoid, but it seems like the road I'm heading down. The dealership to this point has no idea what's wrong, what caused it, or how to fix it. Thanks for your information. I was beginning to think I was the only one going through this situation.


it is the vw dealership in oakland. service phone number is 510.302.1414. my reps name is marin. for as much garbage as ive been put through, i feel that your tech should at least give them a call. hopefully it will at least cut down on your service time. for me, its been a nightmare. not looking forward to settling up a 2 month rental car bill. 

if you have any more questions, please let me know. i will do my best to assist you. 

-chris


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## vwkillingme (May 9, 2011)

...was at the dealership today. The tech told me they going to have to remove all the stuff under the hood next to, and including the air cleaner intake to get to the drain to fix it. I'm wondering if he is talking about the plenum drain you can get to from underneath. He told me VW is going to send him directions on how to do this. is there a different drain other than the sunroof and air intake plenum that I don't know about. I saw Miachael's photos of where the drains are located with and w/o engine that's why I can't figure out why they have to remove everything on the cowl.


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

Rock,
How did the determine it was the plenum?
Damon


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## vwkillingme (May 9, 2011)

..they never told me how they came up with this as the problem, but I think they just ran outta options. I'm not sure what drain they were talking about, that's why I asked you guys if there are only the sunroof drains and the plenum, cause nobody here mentioned any other drains and I trust you guys more than them at this point.


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## madreg98 (Jun 1, 2009)

My bundle of joy was a different situation. When I purchased the car it had been slightly trashed. The driver window was open and it had been in a dealer yard for a number of months so there was no question that there was water in it. Although they had some protective film over the front window and door the floor mats were soaked. I did not have any leaks from the sunroof drains. We did clean out the drains below the engine. As I said, we replaced the Kessy and Josh packed it in a PE bag. No problems since. Good luck with the insurance.


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## vwkillingme (May 9, 2011)

...does anyone have any idea why they want to remove everything around and including the air intake under the hood to get to where the drain they tell me is the cause of my problem, is there a drain there, or are all the drains the ones Michael has referenced, it seems strange to have to remove all that stuff if there are only sunroof and the plenum drains, and you don't have to remove anything to get to them so why all the labor ???


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

I have not seen your car, therefore, I can't comment with any authority about what needs to be removed and what doesn't need to be removed.

However...

If the cause of your problem is that the main drain for the plenum above the engine firewall is blocked, I think that the technicians could probably clean it out by removing the parts that are shown in the second post on the thread Water in Front Footwell (Cleaning Air Intake Plenum and Sunroof Drains), then; removing the parts that are shown in the thread How to remove the Plenum Chamber Cover (pictures).

It may also be necessary for the technicians to remove the two wiper motors, as shown in the thread Wiper Mechanism Mechanical Failures. That depends on how much crap you have in the plenum.

Once those parts have been removed, the technicians should be able to physically remove the vast majority of any debris (probably pine needles, leaves, and other vegetation) that might be present in the plenum area and preventing water that accumulates there from running out the two large drains in the center of the plenum (see photo below).

After the technicians have removed as much debris as they can (working from the top), it would probably then make sense to lift the car up on a hoist and have one person go underneath and manipulate the red rubber drain outlets, and perhaps shove a soft flexible tool (e.g. a piece of rubber tubing) into the end of those drain outlets to break up any blockages. Once water starts to run out of those red rubber tubes, the technician can then rinse out the entire plenum area - on both sides - using a hose. Small bits of debris should be able to escape on their own out the red rubber tubes. If there are large masses of debris (compacted leaves, mice nests, etc.), then it will be necessary to do a little more work (from both the top and bottom) to clear that debris out.

The photos below shows the plenum drain. It's easy to see when the engine is removed, but it is also quite easy to get at when the engine is in place. I don't think it is even necessary to take off the plastic cover that goes under the engine. Just lift the car up, and look for the red outlets aft of the engine.

This kind of work is not rocket science, it is plumbing. Expect to be charged 'straight time' for this work. My guess is that it will probably take two people about 3 hours... hence 6 hours labour. I've done it before, therefore I know where everything is, and if I had to guess how long it would take me, I would say about 5 hours (working alone).

Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Everyone:

I am going to append this discussion onto the end of the existing Water in Cabin Footwell (Cleaning Air Intake Plenum and Sunroof Drains) discussion thread, because it appears that the cause of the problem has been identified as debris in the Air Intake Plenum.

Michael


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

*Water in cabin footwell nearly sets my car on fire!*

Well to begin with I should say I've read the posts concerning the water entering the cabin's footwells and the temporary solutions of cleaning out the plenum of debris as well as the sunroof drains. I clean them fairly regularly as recent as 3 weeks ago. 
On my ride home (has rained here on and off all week ) I saw a message system workshop fault appear with the symbol of a key. The key symbol remained and then disappeared. Then reappeared. Drove the last mile and a half, shut off car and turned it back on. No message. Went inside. I went back out 15 minutes later and hear the car making a sound like it's trying to crank over! Smoke from under hood! I'm thinking oh boy, what to do.. I grab my cell phone video the car's reaction horn on (alarm) hazards blinking, radio on all with NO KEY in the ignition! I put the key in(thinking it will recognize the key), then it won't release the key, it states to place the car in park BUT it's already in PARK! Kessy must be acting up! Why? Pull up the gummi mats and carpet is soaked! I manually go in the trunk with my spare key (won't release my key ) . Disconnect right side battery (starter battery) horn alarm still blowing so I disconnect the left auxiliary battery. HORN STILL SOUNDS> I HAVE IT ON VIDEO!! So I get out the wet vac and proceed the the plenum. IT"S FULL of water. 2 and a half gallons worth on the right side only! Then I vac up the left side then I check the rear mats- they are wet too. So now what? Go to the dealer that gives me an outrageous repair bill (god knows what electrical component was smoldering so hot it was smoking)?I'm thinking maybe Josh could set me up with a kessy and maybe a starter or starter relay for a reasonable price? Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'd post the video but not sure how to post it on here.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

kend414 said:


> ...Any suggestions would be appreciated.


Well, because the purpose of the forum is to be a technical solutions source, and your problem appears to be caused by water ingress to the cabin footwell, I have appended your post onto the existing discussion of diagnosis, troubleshooting, and rectification of water in the cabin footwells.

Hopefully the existing 3 pages of information on that discussion will provide you with sufficient suggestions to both solve your problem, and prevent it from recurring.

Michael


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

I thought since this was the first time an electrical fire was caused by the entrance of water into the cabin footwells I might post it on a new post to serve as a warning to others . I've tried the advice listed but was still a victim.


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## vwkillingme (May 9, 2011)

..Michael, thanks for the clarification, that sounds like just what the adjuster told me down to the six hours of labor, and kend, welcome to the club. My Phaeton also tried to start itself with the key in the neutral position and it was stuck in the ignition too, but I was there when it happened so I was able to disconnect the battery prior to it smoking. Sounds like the exact thing that happened to me.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

kend414 said:


> ...I've tried the advice listed but was still a victim.


Ken:

Yeah, everybody's a victim these days. :facepalm:

If you own and operate a vehicle that is 8 years old (think about it - your model year 2004 Phaeton was built in 2003), you have to assume responsibility to carry out your own due diligence when it comes to maintaining it.

In particular, if you choose to own and operate an extremely complex 8 year old vehicle, you have to pay a heck of a lot more attention to it than you would need to pay to a very simple 8 year old vehicle.

If you are unwilling to accept responsibility for doing this, then it is not a good decision to buy extremely complex 8 year old used cars. You would be far better off to buy a brand new car if you like extremely complex cars (for example, a new BMW 7 series, or a new Mercedes S series, because you can no longer buy a new Phaeton in North America). Alternatively, you might wish to consider buying a less complex 8 year old vehicle, for example a Golf or a Jetta, if you like Volkswagen products. I can assure you that you will have far fewer technical concerns with a much simpler vehicle that is the same age as your Phaeton.

I'm not trying to be a smart-ass here. I'm just stating the obvious - if you buy an 8 year old Phaeton, and you are not willing or able to ensure that a lot of preventative maintenance is carried out on it, then you are biting off more than you can chew.

Michael


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

Well Michael, it seems somehow it's acceptable to you to have rain enter your cabin because it's such a special car. Matter of fact VW just settled a 65 million dollar settlement to many of their VW models as well as several Audi models. They didn't acknowledge the problem on their own but accepted responsibility after a long legal battle. I guess many,many owners agree that the "duckbill" type "nipples are a POOR DESIGN costing owners millions of dollars and now costs are paid by VW group of America. Funy though that VW group isn't asking owners to do this maintanance but rather they will perform the service and replace the defective designed valves after being forced to. I don't want to sue. I DID clean the drains but I still have a problem. It would be helpful if you asked VW why didn't include the Phaeton in the settlement. If you think it's because the car is 8 ears old then that's your opinion. I know of many,many cars both cheap and expensive that don't leak inside.
Please don't make assumptions as to what I can afford. You paid 80k for a car that has many inherent flaws. I didn't. Who is the wiser now. My advice to all is keep it garaged or else. Well VW, how bout you make it right for Phaeton owners like you did to all your other cars with the same problem??


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

*Are these also also considered extremely complex vehicles, some are only 2 years old?*

The Volkswagen and Audi leaky sunroof class action lawsuit settlement covers hundreds of thousands of cars manufactured over the past 13 years. If you own an Audi or a Volkswagen and have a sunroof it's highly likely you're included in this class action lawsuit. So, who's included?

If you purchased or leased, new or used, one of the vehicles listed below you may be included in the Volkswagen/Audi sunroof class action lawsuit:



• 2001-2007 Volkswagen New Beetle equipped with sunroof (VIN below 3VW---1C-7M514779)

• 2001-2007 Volkswagen Jetta Sedan or Wagon equipped with sunroof

• 2001-2007 Volkswagen Golf, Volkswagen GTI equipped with sunroof

• 1999-2005 Volkswagen Passat.

• 1997-2006 Audi A4 B5 and B6 Platforms (including Cabrio, S and RS versions).

• 1998-2005 Audi A6 C5 Platform (including Allroad, S and RS versions)



Current owners or leasers:

• 1998-2000 and 2007-2009 Volkswagen New Beetle equipped with sunroof (VIN 3VW---1C-7M514779 or higher)

• 1997-2000, and 2008-2009 Volkswagen Jetta Sedan or Wagon equipped with sunroof

• 1997-2000 Volkswagen Golf/GTI and 2008 - 2009 Volkswagen Golf/GTI equipped with sunroof

• 1997 and 2006-2009 Volkswagen Passat equipped with sunroof

• 1998 Volkswagen Passat

• 2004-2009 Volkswagen Touareg

• 2005-2008 Audi A4 B7 equipped with sunroof (including S and RS versions)

• 1997 and 2005-2009 Audi A6 C6 platform equipped with sunroof (including S and RS versions)

• 1997-2009 Audi A8 (including S versions)


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

Ken & Michael:

I think all of us on this forum, shudder when we hear horror stories such as those some have experienced from water intrusion. Such problems in a simpler car would not have involved such extensive repairs since much of the electronic components would have been absent. It does appear from the lawsuit that VW has been negligent in their design or has failed to incorporate required maintenance in their published schedule. If it is a necessary maintenance item, it should be clearly stated in maintenace literature as to mileage or time. This should also be communicated directly to all VW dealers indicating its importance. 

I keep saying that one of the greatest benefits of this forum is that it provides us with maintenance tips that help us avoid such catastrophes. I have read this thread with my eyes wide open as Ken has "cleaned" his plenum and still has had water intrusion and significant damage. However, I have determined that my own cleaning of the plenum area although useful was probably not complete. I did not check to make sure that the drain was actually free. I only cleaned out the existing debris, which was not that plentiful. I have learned a great deal from the unfortunate experiences of others and the sharing that goes on within this forum. My heart goes out to all that have experienced water intrusion and many thanks to all that have shared their experience or technical info on this problem. I plan to be much more complete in my maintenance of plenum and sunroof drains. As an aside, i do keep my Phaeton garaged all the time and i pick stray leaves from the plenum covers regularly. It drives my wife crazy.

Jim X


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Jxander said:


> ...It does appear from the lawsuit that VW has been negligent in their design or has failed to incorporate required maintenance in their published schedule.


I don't know anything at all about any lawsuits involving VW and water leakage. This is probably because I don't live in the USA, and because I spend more than half my time outside of North America and Europe (I've been in the Maldives since the end of March, and will be spending the summer in Peru).

I am familiar with the sunroof drain design and the cabin air intake plenum drain design - this as a result of carrying out preventative maintenance (cleaning) of these two drain systems on my own car. As far back as 2006, I was advocating that Phaeton owners clean these two drain systems on a regular basis - this is evident from the photos and text that I posted on the very first page of this thread (go back to page 1 and look at the date of my original posts).

I do agree with Jim's proposition above that _*"...VW ... has failed to incorporate required maintenance [periodic drain cleaning] in their published schedule."*_ There is no doubt that if a Phaeton is regularly parked outside, underneath trees that shed leaves or needles, some of that debris is going to accumulate in the cabin air intake plenum. Likewise, there is no doubt that given enough time (and 8 years appears to be enough), sunroof drains are probably going to stop operating properly unless they are regularly cleaned out, either by the natural action of water flowing down the drains and keeping the 'duckbill nipples' operating properly, or by deliberate preventative maintenance action that consists of pouring water down the drains to achieve the same effect.

What causes me to get testy and cranky is the suggestion that if a manufacturer (of anything) does not identify and spell out every possible consequence that could arise from use of a product, that manufacturer is negligent. I believe that as adults, we have to accept responsibility for being prudent and carrying out our own due diligence. That's precisely why I went to the trouble of starting this discussion and how-to thread in the first place, when I found leaf debris in the cabin air intake plenum of my own car whilst carrying out repairs on a different system (the wiper system) 5 years ago.

No good will come of an adversarial environment in which manufacturers (of anything) dumb down products because they are concerned that they cannot address every possible risk that could arise in the future. VW's decision to not offer push button start, automatic distance regulation, and some of the more advanced communication features that are available in Rest of World markets to the North American marketplace is a good example of what happens when an adversarial, litigation-driven system is allowed to emerge. Likewise, VW's decision to not publish certain service bulletins (Technical Solutions) in the North American marketplace - documents that contain valuable 'lessons learned' from in-service experience - is also a consequence of working in an adversarial, litigation-driven environment.

Hopefully this explains why I have such total contempt for these kinds of lawsuits. In the case of sunroof drains, it is my opinion that the manufacturer was not careless in the design of the drain... they designed a drain system that any reasonable person would expect to have worked quite well. The problem is that several years down the road, when it became apparent that the drains needed to have water passing through them periodically (either from natural causes or as a result of preventative maintenance action), VW did not promulgate this information. I very strongly suspect that they did not do this because they were concerned that some tort lawyer would immediately grab onto it as cause for litigation. That is the tragedy of it all.

Apropos of the problems that have been discussed recently - gross amounts of water coming into the cabins of Ken's car and Rock's car - I think that the source of these two water leaks was probably not the sunroof drains, but instead, a buildup of water in the cabin air intake plenum. I only mention this so that readers who review this discussion in the future don't overlook the need to keep that cabin air intake plenum clean (free of debris), in addition to the need to periodically confirm (by flushing them out) that the sunroof drains are also operating properly.

Finally, let's not forget the need to periodically inspect the rubber plugs inserted in the bottom of the car. These plugs prevent water from the road from entering the passenger footwells. These plugs can be damaged when the car is lifted on a hoist or secured on a flatbed tow-truck, and can also be damaged by running over objects, or by road debris. See this post: Damage arising from Towing & Flatbed Transportation

Michael


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## BustaCuts (Mar 11, 2007)

well on a brighter note, i got my car back from the dealership today. it drivers perfectly fine, just as it should. on the drive home, i immediately noted a rather deep scuff on the top left part of the leather on my steering wheel. i can guarantee it wasnt there before, since it is where my left hand usually rests. without the car for 2 months, i can honestly say i would remember this. not sure if they will honor it or not, but i will bring it up tomorrow. and once i got it home to do a complete inspection, i found mold in my rear passanger seat, where i first noticed the sunroof leak. this is unacceptable in my opinion. looks like another trip back to the dealership. 

i must say, being without the phaeton for 2 months, i sure do appreciate what an amazing car it really is. 

-chris


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

Having been an avid follower of this (and related) threads for the past 3 years, I must say that I find many of the recent posts distressing for various (and obvious) reasons. I hope that both the tone and the focus of this (merged) thread can revert to a strictly technical and congenial nature.

We have members here who are in serious trouble, and they are likely facing significant expenditures of time, money, and frustration. I understand the desire to point fingers, and the reflexive and emotional responses that such finger pointing evokes, and thus the inevitable debate that ensues. My personal opinion is that so long as it is constructive in nature, helpful in clarifiying and resolving the issues at hand, and mutually respectful, then it is a healthy thing. 

Now that I've put in my 2 cents worth, I'd like to talk about nipples  ... the massaging and/or snipping of nipples :facepalm:

Earlier in this (or a related) thread, some members suggested that the nipples at the ends of the drains be snipped off, so that they won't become clogged so easliy, but I haven't heard any real discussion as to the pros and cons of this approach. Could this be the simplest solution to preventing these horror stories?

Also, probably a stupid question here, but could someone enlighten me as to the function of the sunroof drains? When the sunroof is completely closed, isn't it sealed from the elements by the gasket around the sunroof panel? How and when do these drains become actively exposed to water? I have never found any debris in or around my sunroof drain area, yet because of these discussions I do keep looking for some.

Also, when I first purchased my car (second hand), and having read this thread, I removed every bit of leaves and pine needles I could see or feel in the plenum chamber, and I periodically run water through both sides of the chamber to make sure I see the water draining from beneath the car. However, I've never removed wiper motors (nor do I feel qualified in doing so) or any of the other components in the plenum chamber to see if there is debris lurking beneath, ready to pounce someday and cause me the nightmare that others here are describing.

My overarching question in all of this is - to what lengths can/should those of us who are not weekend mechanics go, in order to prevent these clogged drain problems?

Respectfully,
Ron M.

P.S. - Thanks to Michael's thread about the underbody plugs and tow truck driver's complete disregard for their importance, when I bought my car I also made sure to replace and seal any missing ones. I mention this because I realize this is another aspect of this particular thread which I think bears repeating - Check those plugs! They're dirt cheap, and their absence can cause you a world of hurt!

*Archival Note:* Here's the link leading directly to the post that Ron refers to in the paragraph above: ....Damage arising from Towing & Flatbed Transportation


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

> Earlier in this (or a related) thread, some members suggested that the nipples at the ends of the drains be snipped off, so that they won't become clogged so easliy, but I haven't heard any real discussion as to the pros and cons of this approach. Could this be the simplest solution to preventing these horror stories?


Hi RemRem,

I've read of snipping off the tips of the nipples but then the thought occurred to me that the problem with the design is that it restricts flow and allows buildup of foreign materials. I think a logical solution that requires no surgery is to install a 2" length of preferably semi rigid clear 1/4"plastic tubing sticking into the sunroof drain half way. 

This opens it up fully and you can see if it gets clogged and remove it , clean and reinsert it. This is what I've done today. However as Michael has stated correctly you should not get massive amounts of water from a sunroof drain. In fact I hardly ever open my sunroof and the very few times I did it was clean. I mean how much stuff is going to get in there unless the tracks and drains are accessible to debris. The problem is that all the water from the windshield plus any amount of water from the sunroof ALL drain into the plenum. Why the plenum drain is shaped like a flushometer's vacuum breaker, I couldn't say but I would just LOVE to know the name of that engineer that came up with the design (or borrowed the design) that cost VW 65 million dollars. I'd personally like to present the Darwin award to him. I showed my wife the two type drains and she's like,"that's stupid! If you want water to drain quickly you open it up. If your worried water will enter it, so what, it will only run back out"! 

Probably the same guy that insists on his trunk wire harness. I hope he's learned. Oh well. I LOVE this car too much to give up. I'm going to save her. I've gotten tips on replacing the access/start module and with Michael's many contributions of info, I should be able to take it apart. I've built many cars but the complexity of this one is a bit harrowing.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hi Ken:

You have raised a number of very good questions about this whole issue of keeping the duckbill nipples at the end of the sunroof drains functioning properly. I will admit up front that I don't have any answers - certainly no magic answer - but I can throw some thoughts into the discussion that might help us all figure out what the best course of action will be.

First of all, I think that VW must have had a very good reason for putting those self-closing drain nipples on the end of the four sunroof drains. It would have been a heck of a lot simpler, and a heck of a lot less expensive for them to have just terminated an open tube outside of the cabin without any nipple at all on the end of it.

I suspect that the reason the design incorporated a self-closing nipple is control of airflow. In other words, VW wanted to let water flow out, but they did not want to permit air to flow in either direction - in or out. The two nipples in the cabin air intake plenum at the front of the car are located in an area that has high static air pressure when the vehicle is in motion. The two nipples at the rear of the car - in the forward portion of the rear wheel wells - are located in an area that has low static air pressure when the vehicle is in motion.

If we were to cut off the self-sealing duckbills, the four drains might perhaps be more resistant to plugging up when the vehicle is parked, but we would be establishing a path for high static pressure air to enter the front two outlets and then be sucked up the front two tubes, across the sunroof cavity (this implies through the cabin of the car, because the upper end of the four tubes are within the vehicle passenger cabin - they are hidden from view by the headliner, but very much within the passenger cabin), the out the back two drain tubes.

I think the results of this would be disastrous - not only would you have wind noise and a considerable amount of unconditioned, unfiltered ambient air passing through the cabin (between the headliner and the underside of the steel roof and the glass sunroof panel), you would also upset the air balance within the cabin. The vehicle is designed such that positive pressure conditioned and filtered air is provided via the Climate Control system (the HVAC system), and this air exits through one-way vents that are installed in the aft portion of the spare tire well, in an area that has neutral static pressure relative to ambient. In a worst-case scenario, cutting off the duckbills could result in a constant flow of unconditioned, unfiltered air into the front of the headliner, and/or a constant suction pressure from the back two drain tubes... which could significantly disrupt the flow of conditioned, filtered air from the HVAC system, or create a constant, uncontrollable flow of air out of the HVAC system (due to the suction pressure from the back two drain tubes) when the vehicle is in motion.

So, for all those reasons, I think it would be VERY unwise to cut off the duckbills, or to put any form of tubing into them that would keep them open all the time.

------------------------------------

The question, then, is how do we ensure that these duckbill-type water outlets continue to function correctly - letting water out before the water column in the drain tube is high enough to reach up to the sunroof drain tray, and closing up prior to the water column in the drain tube has completely disappeared?

To answer this question, we first need to determine why the self-sealing outlet (the duckbill) may no longer be functioning in accordance with the original design specification.

Several possibilities come to mind: 

First is that the drain tube itself may be plugged prior to the duckbill outlet. The blockage could be up at the beginning of the drain tube in the sunroof drain tray, or perhaps somewhere between the beginning and the end of the tube. In this case, the self-sealing outlet is innocent, it is not the cause of the problem, but the nature of the blockage might be such that the debris in the tube will not pass out of the self-sealing outlet without some intervention and assistance. If this is the case, we can pour a little bit of warm soapy water into the tube using an indoor plant watering can, then massage the distal end of the tube (the duckbill) until the blockage passes out. Once the blockage is cleared, we can then continue to pour warm soapy water down the drain tube, and visually confirm that the self-sealing outlet is functioning properly.

This is not a particularly difficult task, how to do it it is fully described 9with illustrations) earlier in this discussion.

The second possibility is that rubber, by its nature, tends to perish over time. I am sure that all of us have seen examples of this - an air mattress that has decided to stick together when it was stored uninflated for a long period of time, or a rubber fitting that has lost its flexibility. In the case of these self-sealing drain tube terminations on the Phaeton, we can manipulate the end of the fitting by hand to determine if it is still pliable and if the valve still opens properly when squeezed laterally. In a best-case scenario, it might be that a little bit of dust - perhaps a clay-type dust - has ever so slightly 'glued' the two sides of the duckbill together. If this is the case, then running warm soapy water down the tube and massaging the fitting as the water runs out will probably be sufficient to restore normal functionality.

If the self-sealing fitting has actually perished, then we need to order and install a new fitting. This should not be a particularly complex task, although it is a bit of a nuisance to get access to the front two drain terminations. It is much easier to get access (to both sides) of the rear two drain terminations - just remove the rear wheel well liner, and if necessary, remove the trim panel outboard of the rear passenger seats - this will allow access to both sides of the two rear fittings.

Finally, there is the question _"What can we do to ensure that a fitting that has not perished (i.e. a fitting that is working properly, or one that we have cleaned out and restored to working properly) continues to work properly in the future?"_ I think that it might be appropriate to lubricate the INSIDE of the duckbill fitting with some kind of lubricant that will keep it soft and supple, and reduce the risk of the two sides of the fitting sticking to each other. The challenge is to determine what chemical to use to do this. It might be inappropriate to use some types of chemicals (e.g. petroleum jelly), because they might cause long-term degradation of the rubber. Possibly a very thin film of silicone-based lubricant - such as the silicone lubricant that VW supplies for lubricating the sunroof tracks, or the silicone lubricant that VW supplies for lubricating door seals - might be the right chemical to use. Personally, I think that DuPont Krytox lubricant, Part Number G 052 172 A1, which is the lubricant that VW recommends for use on the rubber roof seals of the Eos convertable - would be the very best chemical to use, because it is liquid and it is an inert (non petroleum based) lubricant. However, Krytox is expensive.

As I said at the beginning of this post, I don't claim to have the answers, but perhaps some of these thoughts might serve as a springboard for others to post their suggestions, and collectively, we might be able to come up with the perfect answer to keep the drain system functioning reliably for many years to come.

Michael

*DuPont Krytox Lubricant*









*VW Krytox Liquid as used on the EoS roof rubber seals*









*All Purpose Silicone Lubricant*


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

remrem said:


> ...Earlier in this (or a related) thread, some members suggested that the nipples at the ends of the drains be snipped off, so that they won't become clogged so easliy, but I haven't heard any real discussion as to the pros and cons of this approach. Could this be the simplest solution to preventing these horror stories?...
> 
> ... could someone enlighten me as to the function of the sunroof drains? When the sunroof is completely closed, isn't it sealed from the elements by the gasket around the sunroof panel? How and when do these drains become actively exposed to water? ...
> 
> ... I removed every bit of leaves and pine needles I could see or feel in the plenum chamber, and I periodically run water through both sides of the chamber to make sure I see the water draining from beneath the car. However, I've never removed wiper motors (nor do I feel qualified in doing so) or any of the other components in the plenum chamber to see if there is debris lurking beneath, ready to pounce someday and cause me the nightmare that others here are describing. My overarching question in all of this is - to what lengths can/should those of us who are not weekend mechanics go, in order to prevent these clogged drain problems?...


Hi Michael,

That was a fascinating and compelling explanation as to why we all might want to avoid snipping off the drain nipples, and obviously your being a professional aviator provides insights that would never occur to most of us. :thumbup:

However, I am quoting myself above here, with the hope that you would address the other two questions I posed, if possible.

Lastly, regarding the nipple questions, are the drains beneath the car also subject to nipple obstruction/detioration, and if so should we consider addressing them in a similar manner?

Thanks again.

Best regards,
Ron M.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hi Ron:

I'm glad you found the thoughts I posted useful. As I write this, I am sitting in the Maldives, where I have been for the last 8 weeks, putting a new aircraft into service. It's a complex task, and the first time the new production aircraft has been put into service on saltwater. I guess that is why I am thinking 'problem-solving' right now. :laugh:

It's also been a long time since I drove my Phaeton - I parked it at work at the end of March, when I left for Switzerland, and I probably won't be back in Canada until mid June. As some of you know, my office is on Vancouver Island (a coastal rainforest), and I have to admit that as this discussion thread has progressed over the last few weeks, there have been times I have wondered if my car will look like an aquarium when I get back home - it will have been sitting unattended and unused outside for close to 3 months - fortunately, with no trees nearby.

*There is nothing like work to get one into a 'problem-solving' frame of mind...*
(That's me on the left side of the raft)









Anyway, getting 'round to the questions you posed:

*... could someone enlighten me as to the function of the sunroof drains? When the sunroof is completely closed, isn't it sealed from the elements by the gasket around the sunroof panel? How and when do these drains become actively exposed to water? ..*

The fit between the glass sunroof panel and the steel roof structure surrounding it is not watertight - not on the Phaeton, and not on most other vehicles that have a sunroof panel that retracts downwards and stows below the roof structure. There is a seal of sorts around the perimeter of the glass panel, but it is not a perfect seal, and and it can never be - changes in temperature, flexing of the vehicle body, degradation of the seal material itself over time, etc. all combine to let a little bit of water pass through the gap between the seal surrounding the glass panel and the steel roof structure.

To allow for this, the manufacturer provides a drip tray that surrounds the sunroof aperture. Because the body angle of a parked car cannot be controlled (it might be parked on a sloping road), drains are provided in all four corners of the drip tray. The drains lead to the outside of the vehicle via the shortest possible route - down the A pillars in the case of the front two drains, and down the C pillars in the case of the rear two drains. It is noteworthy that the rear two drains don't originate at the rear corners of the glass panel when the panel is closed, they originate at the rear corners of the glass panel when the panel is fully open (retracted aft).

If the sunroof glass panel is not adjusted to achieve a perfectly flush fit (in the vertical plane) with the edges of the sunroof aperture - most especially if one edge (typically the leading edge) of the sunroof is slightly recessed relative to the steel roof - a little bit of water will gather there when it rains (or when you wash the car), and over time, some of that water will work its way past the seal and into the drip tray. An example of what I mean by adjustment of the glass panel can be seen at this discussion: How to adjust the glass sunroof panel to achieve a flush fit with the roof. In the picture below, which shows my car, note how the the front of the sunroof glass panel is slightly lower than the leading edge of the roof aperture. This is within spec - the spec calls for the panel to be between flush and -1 mm below the leading edge. If the panel was higher than the leading edge, wind noise (and possibly even more water infiltration when driving in the rain) would result.

You can see how water could collect in that little depression at the front of the panel, and then infiltrate past the seal to the drip tray.

*Sunroof Alignment Specifications*









My own personal experience has been that if there is water in the drip tray, the driver will know about it right away - you can hear the water sloshing around above your head when you drive the car. It's unmistakable. I have encountered this twice - both times when I left my car outside at work for more than a month while I was out of the country. In each case, it was wintertime, which meant that average temperatures were below freezing. But, during the day, the sun would come out, melt any snow on the top of the (black!) car, and warm up the roof. A little bit of water would then sneak past the seal... but it couldn't go down the drain tubes, because the water in the drain tubes (which are not exposed to the sun) was frozen. The fix was easy - just park indoors in a heated garage overnight (I used the aircraft hangar at work), let everything warm up, and return the next morning. 

I stress here that in each of these cases, I had left the car alone, outside, unattended and unused, for over a month, in a climate where the prevailing temperature was just below freezing, but not cold enough to prevent the sun from melting (each day) whatever snow accumulated on the roof. I also stress that I detected the presence of the water in the drip trays immediately, the first time I turned a corner with the car - simply by hearing the unusual "water sloshing" noise above my head.

For those reasons, I doubt very much if the problems of GROSS water infiltration into the cabin of the car that have been discussed in this thread over the past month have had anything to do with the sunroof drain systems. If the drip tray overflows, the water is going to fall onto the upper surface of the headliner of the car, or (if the sliding opaque sun-blocking panel under the glass panel is open), onto the head of the driver and passenger. The problem will not go unrecognized, and there will be ample evidence of water damage to the headliner and to the A and C pillar trim long before the water ever makes it to the cabin footwells.

In my opinion, GROSS water infiltration into the cabin can only come from the cabin air intake plenum (discussed and illustrated at the beginning of the first post on page 1 of this thread), or; from below the car, when plugs are missing from the underbody of the car (discussed and illustrated on this thread: Damage arising from Towing & Flatbed Transportation. The balance of probability between the two causes is affected by the following:

*1) Ownership History: *- One owner car? Never been towed? Probably the cabin air intake plenum, especially if you park outside and have trees in your neighborhood (especially pine trees).

*2) Service History:* - Always take it to a VW dealer who is familiar with Phaetons, and pays attention to not damaging the underbody of the car when lifting it? 

*3) Parking: * Do you ever park it under trees (like, every day at work; or every day at home), or do you live in a desert, or perhaps use enclosed parking all the time?

Years ago, when everyone in the forum was the original owner of the car, it was easy to answer the above questions and easy to establish probable cause. Today, many forum members are the 3rd, 4th, or 5th owners of the cars, and it is reasonable to assume that these cars - many of which have been purchased for $20K or so - are not getting the same level of service attention as they got when they were new and the (original) owner had just laid down $70 to $110K at the servicing dealer to buy the car. Many forum members are doing their own service, which is just fine, but unless they happen to own a hydraulic lift, the car is not getting lifted up into the air very frequently, which means that the underbody of the car is not getting inspected very frequently.

There are a heck of a lot of plugs in the bottom of the car - have a look at the photo below:

*Underbody Plugs*









For all the above reasons, I think that the real 'smoking gun' for cabin footwell water infiltration is either missing or loose underbody plugs, or debris in the cabin air intake plenum. I think sunroof drains are a distraction, a red herring, although I do agree that those drains need to be periodically inspected and cleaned in order to avoid the sound of water sloshing about over your head.

You wrote:* ... I removed every bit of leaves and pine needles I could see or feel in the plenum chamber, and I periodically run water through both sides of the chamber to make sure I see the water draining from beneath the car. However, I've never removed wiper motors (nor do I feel qualified in doing so) or any of the other components in the plenum chamber to see if there is debris lurking beneath, ready to pounce someday and cause me the nightmare that others here are describing. My overarching question in all of this is - to what lengths can/should those of us who are not weekend mechanics go, in order to prevent these clogged drain problems?...*

This is a subject that I do have some experience with, because as mentioned earlier, I live in a coastal rainforest, and I park my car outdoors all the time (under trees at home). Every spring, I clean out the cabin air intake plenum. It's really not all that hard to do - I wait for a sunny day, lift up the hood and remove the first panel (the one with the four 90° thumb-turns that does not require any tools to remove), and lift out any leaf debris that I can see. I then get a shop vacuum, put a pointy nozzle on the end, and suck out what I can't reach. Finally, I get a garden hose and begin to fill the whole compartment (the plenum) with water. Soon enough, the head pressure of the water in the plenum opens up the outlets on the two red rubber nipples at the bottom of the plenum, and all the water (and small debris I could not reach) comes flooding out the outlets under the middle of the car.

The outlets on the cabin air intake plenum are NOT duckbill openings, they are very conventional, and they are *HUGE*, relative to the sunroof drains. The rubber drain assembly has TWO outlets (just in case one gets plugged), and each outlet is at least 1.5 inches in diameter at its narrowest point. I have never heard of one of these outlets plugging up. If both of them did plug up, the fix would be simple - just roll underneath the car, shove the hose up the drain outlet, and blow a little water in there to break up any leaf debris that you can't reach from above.

*Cabin Air Intake Plenum Drain Outlets*



























There are two other possible sources of water in the cabin, but I don't think that either of these by themselves will result in huge amounts of water getting into the cabin.

One is failure of someone working on the electrical junction box that is found at the top of the cabin air intake plenum on the passenger side of the car to close the box up properly after opening it. I believe that I have already posted a Technical Solution (TS) from VW describing this problem earlier in this discussion thread. Consider, though, that unless the cabin air intake plenum is plugged up - thus submerging this electrical box when the plenum totally fills with water - it is unlikely that any great amount of water will come into the cabin that way. All sorts of other problems (primarily electrical problems) would arise from water in that junction box, though.

As an aside, I don't ever run my car through automatic (tunnel) car washes. That's not because I am a paint fanatic, it's because the nearest tunnel car wash is over 20 miles away from me. Owners who do run their Phaetons through tunnel car washes need to consider that the tremendous amount of water that flows down onto the car can easily fill up a blocked cabin air intake plenum in 10 to 15 seconds, and that the very high air pressure from the fans that blow the water off the car at the far end of the tunnel car wash will do a heck of a good job of forcing any water in the plenum into the cabin via any possible means - including tiny pin-hole cracks in rubber seals that would otherwise be harmless.

Lastly, there are two evaporator drain tubes that lead from either side of the air conditioner condensate drain tray to the exterior of the vehicle. These tubes have a very short run (only a few inches) and I kind of doubt that they would ever plug up on their own. However, if you - or the previous owner) have ever had the air conditioning system evaporator "cleaned" (to get rid of smells, etc.), then materials left behind in the cleaning process - powders, fluids, etc. - may have blocked one or both of these drains. Troubleshooting them is a story I don't have time to write right now, but the short story is that they work pretty much the same was as the sunroof drains do, except that you need to lift the car up on a hoist to get access to them - or, partially disassemble the trim and carpet on the side of the transmission tunnel (as illustrated at the beginning of the Retrofitting Keyless Start to a North American Phaeton thread) and then go to work on them from above.

Regards,

Michael

*Air Conditioner Evaporator Drip Tray Drains*
There is one drain on each side of the transmission tunnel.









*Illustration showing HVAC (heating and air conditioning) assembly and location of drains in photo above*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Just a post-script here: The siren for the anti-theft alarm is located in the cabin air intake plenum, up towards the top of the plenum, directly below the shaft that the left side (driver side in North America) wiper arm attaches to.

If the plenum fills up with water or debris, the sound that the siren makes is going to be muted. So, if the alarm siren sounds funny - consider that to be a "heads's up" call indicating that you might want to take a look inside the cabin air intake plenum and see what is accumulating in there.

Michael

*Location of Anti-theft Alarm Siren*


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

Michael, thank you for taking the time to write such an informative post. I'm glad we are having a discussion that I feel is making progress.
While reading your thoughts to the design of the duckbill type drains and the concern of preventing low static air from the plenum driving water and air further up in the drain while under speed. I haven't thought of that . I have two thoughts of my own on that.
First, VW's is instructing the service dept to "cut off the ends" of the duck bill type drains. I hope they took into consideration a similar type argument that you've brought forth.

Secondly, I was told the duck bill type ends were to prevent spiders from crawling into and building nests. I'm sure we all heard horror stories of propane gas grills being clogged by spiders,etc.

Also I think your correct in not using petroleum jelly (vaseline) . But not only for the reasons mentioned. You are correct it degrades rubber being a petroleum distillate however, it would be ill advised for another reason. There are substitutes for Petroleum jelly, namely water borne such as KY jelly. The reason this would be a poor choice as well is because dirt will stick to it-causing more of a clog. Same reason locksmith's never-ever use oil in a lock set or cylinder. Graphite is used. 
While I have posted that I placed a semi rigid, clear plastic tube into the duck bill nipples, having read your concerns with an open end, perhaps we take it further and lengthen this "semi rigid tube down, outside the plenum or maybe through the larger plenum drains. The termination of this tube could be fastened pointed towards the rear( away from an oncoming airstream produced while driving forward.
What are your thoughts on this approach? Do you think that would work?
I must admit however that while I respect all of our opinions and efforts to this problem, I do think VW should be addressing this issue for us. Not because I believe in cradle to grave entitlements, but because they are helping all similarly affected vehicles, whether willingly or otherwise. I have confidence that they have come up with an acceptable solution. Before a dealer would take action not specifically directed for a specific model (warranty issues etc) they would need to be authorized. They can only be authorized by one entity. 
If we do make these modifications to our vehicles, will WE be held liable for causing damage? This might be a topic for discussion elsewhere but I don't want a forum member to take action from our thoughts and exacerbate an existing problem and shift the blame unto themselves.

Lastly, I wanted to post a link to the service action circulars VW put out in regards to the water ingress situations. I believe this is what VW has come up with for the models specific to the lawsuit.
https://wateringresssettlement.com/More_Information/Court_Documents.aspx


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

Page 17 of the Service Action-1 instructs the tech to "clip off duck bill end using diagonal cutters. Be sure opening is round."

Note: While this is a similar drain if not the same drain as the Phaeton, VW has _*not*_ authorized this action be taken on *our* cars. Please seek further direction from your dealer or assume responsibility.


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

I own a Touareg that was covered in the class action lawsuit involving water ingress in some VAG vehicles. Since I never experienced any water intrusion problems, the only impact on me was a notice from VW of a revised service bulletin to be added to my owner's info. This of course was long after I had read about this potential problem on this forum as well as the Touareg forums and performed my own cleaning on both vehicles. Again thank goodness for the cooperative spirit of these owner forums. The Touareg VW service bulletin states that the plenum and sunroof drains should be inspected and cleaned every 2 years or 40,000 miles. This is probably a good rule of thumb for Phaeton owners also. Although as mentioned before if your Phaeton is frequently in an adverse environment, more frequent attention might be warranted. Michael cleans his every Spring which is cheap insurance to guard against expensive water intrusion. I also noted in the settlement link posted by Ken in the above post, there was mention of $8 million that was set aside to "help" owners of covered vehicles that had incurred damage from water intrusion. I think the Phaeton was likely excluded(overlooked?) because of its limited numbers and fewer complaints.

Jim X


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

kend414 said:


> ...VW's is instructing the service dept to "cut off the ends" of the duck bill type drains.


Hi Ken:

I realize that you made an effort to point out that this instruction does not apply to Phaeton vehicles in your second post (above), however, just for the benefit of readers who may come along later and only 'skim' the contents of this discussion:* VW has made no recommendation to modify sunroof drains on Phaeton vehicles.* My own personal recommendation, based on my experience (owning and maintaining a Phaetons I purchased new in 2004) is that we clean the drain lines periodically with warm soapy water. Period. Nothing more.



kend414 said:


> ...I was told the duck bill type ends were to prevent spiders from crawling into and building nests.


That is entirely possible, and certainly provides an additional reason to not modify (cut off) the nipples at the end of the sunroof drains.



kend414 said:


> ...While I have posted that I placed a semi rigid, clear plastic tube into the duck bill nipples, having read your concerns with an open end, perhaps we take it further and lengthen this "semi rigid tube down, outside the plenum or maybe through the larger plenum drains. The termination of this tube could be fastened pointed towards the rear (away from an oncoming airstream produced while driving forward. What are your thoughts on this approach? Do you think that would work?


In my field of work (aircraft manufacturing), it is extraordinarily difficult to find a location on or near the outside of the aircraft that has neutral static pressure (neither positive or negative pressure) at all times when the aircraft is in motion. Such a location is needed on every aircraft to enable sensing of static air pressure outside the aircraft.

I think we would have no hope of finding not one but four locations on our Phaetons that are not subject to negative or positive static pressure when the vehicle is in motion.

I spent almost a day going through the German language VW forums looking for reports of problems with the sunroof drain systems. The European cars have the same drain systems that the North American cars have. I could not find any reports of problems with Phaetons, and very little discussion about problems with other VW products.

The only conclusion I can come to is that in Europe, owners and/or maintenance technicians carry out preventative maintenance by pouring warm soapy water down the sunroof drains. I know this to be true because I spend a lot of time in Switzerland and keep a VW Golf there.

So far as we - Phaeton owners in North America - are concerned, I think that the best action for us to take is to carry out preventative maintenance, not to modify the original design of the sunroof drain system.

I also reiterate that I don't think plugged sunroof drains have been the cause of the GROSS water infiltration problems reported earlier in this discussion. I believe that GROSS water infiltration into the cabin is caused by the cabin air inlet plenum drain plugging up with leaf debris, and/or underbody plugs on the car that are missing as a result of towing, improper lifting, or perhaps road hazard damage.

Michael


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## vwkillingme (May 9, 2011)

....UPDATE....as of today the dealer is going to replace the right air distibutor/heater element/adjustment motor for seat belt/side impact sensor...total parts $892.00, and that isn't a guarantee that the problem is fixed, they're not even sure the car will run, there might be more parts to replace as a result. We're at the just replace everything until it works stage


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

PanEuropean said:


> ...
> There is no doubt that if a Phaeton is regularly parked outside, underneath trees that shed leaves or needles, some of that debris is going to accumulate in the cabin air intake plenum. Likewise, there is no doubt that given enough time (and 8 years appears to be enough), sunroof drains are probably going to stop operating properly unless they are regularly cleaned out, either by the natural action of water flowing down the drains and keeping the 'duckbill nipples' operating properly, or by deliberate preventative maintenance action that consists of pouring water down the drains to achieve the same effect.
> ...
> Finally, let's not forget the need to periodically inspect the rubber plugs inserted in the bottom of the car. These plugs prevent water from the road from entering the passenger footwells. These plugs can be damaged when the car is lifted on a hoist or secured on a flatbed tow-truck, and can also be damaged by running over objects, or by road debris.
> Michael


Hi Michael and other moderators,

As Michael rightly said, with our ageing cars, important and costly issues related with water in footwell will most likely appear more and more often.

Would it be possible to include this very extensive and complete thread on this problem in the TOC for easy future reference ?

P.


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

Zaphh said:


> Hi Michael and other moderators,
> 
> As Michael rightly said, with our ageing cars, important and costly issues related with water in footwell will most likely appear more and more often.
> 
> ...


It already is


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

Oops... My fault...

I looked for "water" and "footwell" in the TOC page, but did not notice that the "match case" box was ticked...

Sorry, :facepalm:

P.


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## guybguy (Jul 21, 2005)

*Phaeton Possessed? Need your help, please*

I desperately need the benefit of your experiences and insight to help focus our search and repair process. 

The other day my Phaeton took on a life of its own. It is a 2004 V8 with 69k miles and has been essentially problem free since I bought it new. I do have the Platinum Extended warranty.

Other background
-	wheel bearing replaced within last 2 weeks
-	cabin fan, when blowing hard, has begun to sound a bit noisier than usual
-	I washed the car (touchless drive-through it has been through at least 100 times) two hours or so before the events below started
-	After that is described below took place, the dealer and I noticed water in the rear passenger foot well – and nowhere else. Sunroof had been closed and no sign of leakage around it, etc.

The car was parked in front of my house and had been for an hour and a half or more. I went out front and could hear what sounded like a car trying to start, but could see nothing. Walking toward the street I realized my Phaeton was sitting there with what sounded like the starter working away. No key in the car. Doors locked and alarm on. No, the car does not have remote starting. 

Returning with a key and trying to unlock the car, it would respoond. Manually entering the car, with the alarm screaming and the starter just grinding away, I inserted to key. This had no effect. The starter stopped after several more frustrating minutes, at which time smoke rose from under the hood. 

The key was stuck in the ignition and the car was stuck in park. Turning the wheel, pumping brakes – nothing would change this. Trying to insert things in the key release was similarly ineffective. The car remained in alarm mode. Getting another key out of the house it also failed to unlock doors, take alarm off, etc. 

By this time I had spoken to the dealership and contacted a reputable towing service, dreading how we would deal with a car stuck in park.

I kept going to the car, setting the alarm off as I manually entered, and trying to remove the key and get the thing out of park. Finally for some reason the key was freed up and the gear shift moved, so I put it in neutral so it could be loaded onto the flatbed when it arrived. 

A massive storm hit our area shortly after this, with heavy rain and a drop in temperature from the 80s to the 60s. A neighbor mentioned he had noticed my car running as he walked by it. Running to it I found it was not running, but it sounded like the cooling fans were on. Setting off the alarm as I entered the car, I found the fans blowing in the cabin as well. I inserted the key, again with no result of any kind – and once again it was stuck in place. 

The car was towed away and delivered to the dealer. At this point the key was stuck in the ignition, the car was stuck in gear, and so it stayed for 36 hours or so. Hooking it up to a power source did nothing. They removed the cover to manually free up the gear shift. Which did not work. Their next plan was to get it on dollies and wheel it into their building so they could start on it. Then, as before, it changed its mind, let them put it in neutral, and is now inside and ready for the fun. 

Burning plastic smell under hood – I assume starter and/or related wiring and/or solenoids are fried.

Thoughts on how water might have entered? Do you think this is the culprit? Which controller(s) or other electronics might cause these kinds of behaviors? Least intrusive and time-consuming approaches to working through the process?

My apologies for length and thank you for your help.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Please read this post thoroughly, from start to finish, including the references (links) to other discussions that are embedded in it.

Water in Front Footwell (Cleaning Air Intake Plenum and Sunroof Drains)

Pay particular attention to the recent discussion on page 3 of that thread, but, be sure to read pages 1 and 2 thoroughly first. There you will find all of the information that you need to know to both diagnose and solve your problem.

It will take you between 60 to 90 minutes to do the reading, so, go put the coffee on.


Michael


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## PJB1 (May 13, 2010)

Michael,

Appreciate all the helpful and informative posts here and elsewhere, but don’t know that I am on-board with some of your comments in relation to responsibility for this issue. 


PanEuropean said:


> If you own and operate a vehicle that is 8 years old … you have to assume responsibility to carry out your own due diligence when it comes to maintaining it.


Don't see how responsibility for a VW issue can be placed on the car’s owner. This isn’t a case where a well-designed part eroded over time or an owner improperly maintained his car. The is a design defect issue for which VW settled a major class-action lawsuit and subsequently provided a band-aid fix – for specified models. 



PanEuropean said:


> In particular, if you choose to own and operate an extremely complex 8 year old vehicle, you have to pay a heck of a lot more attention to it than you would need to pay to a very simple 8 year old vehicle.
> 
> Alternatively, you might wish to consider buying a less complex 8 year old vehicle, for example a Golf or a Jetta, if you like Volkswagen products. I can assure you that you will have far fewer technical concerns with a much simpler vehicle that is the same age as your Phaeton.


As you must now know, the problem is even in “very simple” VWs. Alternatively, if your point were that an owner of an 8-year old high-end car should expect to see greater maintenance due to its complexities, frankly, this would be contrary to the reason many people buy these cars. Stating the obvious: Most people who buy high-end luxury cars – other than for status – buy them because they expect reliability and fewer visits to the shop. It’s also well documented that consumers specifically focus on long-term vehicle maintenance reports in their purchase decisions in order to determine what cars incur the fewest problems/lowest cost of ownership over the long-term. No one in this class of customer expects to pay more for increased inconvenience/heartache. 



PanEuropean said:


> I believe that as adults, we have to accept responsibility for being prudent and carrying out our own due diligence.


I agree that we should all take responsibility. But let’s not blame the victims. VW/Audi profited from the sale of thousands and thousands of cars that have this design defect. The defect could lead to catastrophic problems, which could cause a vehicle to be a total loss. In terms of “taking responsibility,” VW took none until forced to by a class-action lawsuit. If a Phaeton in the U.S. experiences this problem and it causes the car to be “totaled,” this could mean a huge monetary loss to the car owner, given depreciation from original purchase price. Therefore, I think the issue here is how to address the real problem – having VW take responsibility for this issue on the Phaeton. 

On a personal note, I own a late 2005. While my car is garaged, meticulously maintained and still under extended warranty, this thread has me very concerned for two key reasons: (a) it’s hard to swallow that this high-end dragon-slayer (supposedly on parallel with the big Benz and BMW) has a potential ticking time-bomb that will result in a nightmare scenario; and (b) as you and many others have pointed out, the VW techs (in general) do not instill a feeling of confidence, and my local VW dealer, with 3 Phaeton-certified techs, has consistently improperly diagnosed just about every single thing and done some unnecessary work to my car. Just sharing my two cents...


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

*Phaeton Possessed? Need your help, please *



Sorry to hear this has happened yet again. You are not crazy. The same symptoms your car exhibited has happened to a few of us Phaeton owners. Luckily there has only been smoke and no flames yet. I'm awaiting a Kessey module. I have removed the plenum drain since despite my best efforts to wet vac the plenum of debris, there remains debris that is unseen and unreachable from above the car. If you can't see the plenum drain, how can you ascertain it is truly debris clear? Since after several, careful wet vac sessions and a car cover (cheapo) I returned after several downpours to observe a plenum full of water hence my removal of the plenum drain. It can always be put back on. BTW the orange plenum drain has two discharge nozzles. These are end caps. Each side simply pulls off and pushes back on. 
I think all affected owners should document their experiences and share them with others via the forum or elsewhere.


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

*A warning to others..*

Just because you've parked your Phaeton in the garage for the evening and tucked the kids in for the night and placed the car's key on a nightstand DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE SAFE. I HAD cleaned my plenum drains 3 weeks prior and several times after realizing I had water entry. My car was smoking and unless I was there to disconnect the batteries I believe it very well could have caught on fire. Luckily it was in the afternoon and it was parked outside when I discovered it trying to start itself and smoking profusely. Which I videotaped with my phone. All this with NO KEY in the ignition. Besides turning the car off and removing the key, what other fire prevention steps should I have known and enacted?


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## vwkillingme (May 9, 2011)

.......I did talk to VWOA today and I was told that the car being out of warranty and VW not resopnsible for wear items, age of car. I tried to explain that it's not a "wear" item like brakes, wipers, etc.. No luck. I even asked for a phone number for the VW rep in my region, and was told there was no number, that all inquiries had to go through the dealer. I gave VW one more try, and now I doubt I'll ever buy another. I'm tried of replacing window regulators, radios, tail light bulbs in just one side, ignition switches, fuse panels, fuel relays, everything involving electronics. Although my car was not purchased with a warranty I've owned it for only nine weeks, and three of that it has been at the dealer for this water issue, and now seeing the small sample here of owners with the same issue it's hard to believe this isn't a design flaw much like the sunroof issue. I've been dealing with water issues in VW's for almost 30yrs off and on. I thought that Phaeton would be above such issues. I'm wondering how long it'll be before another lawsuit for this issue, after all these aren't $100.00 repairs. If this was a freak occurrence I'd gladly pay the freight and go on my merry way, it does make me think that with so few Phaetons sold even the small number of people here with the same issue this should concern VWOA.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

kend414 said:


> ...despite my best efforts to wet vac the plenum of debris, there remains debris that is unseen and unreachable from above the car...


Best way to see the debris that you don't have a direct line of sight to is by using an inspection mirror and a flashlight. Such a tool is available from any Snap-On or Mac tools dealer, and from most large auto supply shops. In my industry (aviation), we always have one in our pocket, because it is impossible to maintain any aircraft without one.

Best way to get rid of anything you see with the mirror is to stuff a hose up the drain hole (from underneath the car) and flush it out that way. At the same time, get a piece of soft, flexible tubing, about 3/4 inch outside diameter, and poke it under the bottom of the HVAC unit to dislodge stubborn debris that may remain there after you flush the plenum out with water.

Below is a picture of what the plenum looks like when all of the various accessories (wipers, HVAC unit, etc.) are not present - I think this will enable you to visualize where the remaining debris is. There will be quite a large opening present if you have removed the orange drain hose assembly - you should be able to poke/flush out any remaining debris without difficulty.

You will know you have got it "clean enough" when you can run your garden hose at full flow into either side of the plenum (either side of the HVAC unit) and not have any water back up in the plenum - in other words, all the water flows out the hole.

Although I feel bad that you are having these difficulties, it sure sounds to me like whoever owned the car before you did (keeping in mind that there might have been multiple owners) did not do a very good job of carrying out preventative maintenance. It is unfortunate that the consequences of this have fallen on you.

Michael

*Plenum Assembly without Components Installed*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

PJB1 said:


> Appreciate all the helpful and informative posts here and elsewhere, but don’t know that I am on-board with some of your comments in relation to responsibility for this issue.


No problem with that - it's perfectly OK to have different opinions, and I respect yours, even though it is contrary to my own.

What I would like everyone to please keep in mind here is something that I have written many times before: *We are a solution-focused forum, not a problem-focused forum.*

In other words, we keep the focus of what we do on finding, documenting, and sharing *SOLUTIONS* to problems. We don't perseverate on the problem.

Michael


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

Michael, thank you for the drawing. I used a Rigid brand lighted scope with camera on the tip. Sort of an endoscope. I was not able to view under the hvac fresh air intake from above the car. I was able to spot a glimpse of the orange plenum drain by routing the camera past the passenger wheel and into a metallic heat shield. The shield appears u -shaped and runs from the passenger side to the driver's side. I can appreciate your thinking the previous owner didn't provide much preventative maintenance but in reality, what would ever cause him to believe it necessary to flush such things. I know it was maintained at the dealership but I don't think I could even fault the techs. I only knew to clear debris from reading your post on the subject. Water in the cabin is a pain for sure, but a parked and locked unattended vehicle that begins smoldering is certainly cause for concern. I certainly don't want to see anyone injured. I'm not certain yet which electrical component or harness was affected with certainty but I do feel if I hadn't caught it in time something serious would have followed. Just because an owner isn't fortunate to have the benefit of the knowledge of this forum, it just isn't acceptable for himself and his family to be put at risk. The risk is very much real. I don't know what else to say. I'm sure even the vw tech's are not aware of Kessey modules being fried simply because of his or his dealer's ignorance of maintaining a plenum drain.I doubt the vw techs would even take things seriously until_ they_ have to put out a fire from a vehicle parked in the corner-without keys in it no less!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Archival Note:*

*Possibly a related discussion:* Car won't unlock, recognize key, release key from ignition, or start (wet controllers?)

*A discussion about another possible (but less common) source of water infiltration into the cabin: *Accessing the evaporator drain / Liquid "sloshing" sound in cabin. This discussion is worth a read if you have evidence of water in the front seat footwells.

It appears that there are four possible sources of water infiltration into the cabin. In order of priority (probability) for troubleshooting purposes, they are as follows:

Highest probability

- Water building up in the cabin air intake plenum (below the windshield wipers) due to vegetative debris blocking the plenum drain.

- Water building up in the sunroof drains due to the nipple ends of the sunroof drain tubes sticking together.

Lower Probability

- Water leaking into the left passenger footwell via the electrical fuse and relay box in the air intake plenum, this due to the cover not being properly closed and sealed on that electrical box.

- Water leaking into either the left or right front footwell due to water buildup in the air conditioner evaporator drain tray (could be caused by a plugged drain, or a drain tube coming loose).

Michael


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## maciathc (Feb 5, 2008)

*lots of usefull info, Thanks!*

:thumbup:


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## guybguy (Jul 21, 2005)

*Unhappy ($13,000!!??) Discovery on Water Ingress*

I had sent earlier messages about events 1 and 2. Unfortunately the saga has continued and 

1 -- In May I experienced the electrical mayhem caused by water getting into the cabin. The water was attributed to the air intake plenum being clogged. After a long time at the dealer and the considerable expense of replacing the Kessy module, the starter, the ECU, etc. I got the car back. 

2 -- after having air conditioning alternately working and not working I once again had water in the passenger footwell, this time attributed to the evaporator drain being clogged. This was resolved, and an under warranty condenser and air quality module replacement took place. I got the car back again. 

A very heavy rain came on two days later, and I discovered water in the passenger foot well the next morning, so back to the dealer it goes. The electrical box has been identified as the source of the water. I am told that water has corroded the wiring harness and that the harness must be replace. This is estimated to cost $13,000 - PLUS LABOR which will be huge!!! And it will take a very long time to get it, not to mention the time required to "re-wire the car". I got this news while traveling and will see the car tomorrow. I am staggered by this and wonder if anyone has any knowledge or experience that might be helpful. Any miracles available out there? 

Guy


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hello Guy: 

In an attempt to keep all related discussion of water ingress in the same place (this to make it easier for others to find this information), I have appended your recent post (above) to the existing 'Water in Front Footwell' discussion. 

Michael


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

guybguy said:


> The electrical box has been identified as the source of the water. I am told that water has corroded the wiring harness and that the harness must be replace. This is estimated to cost $13,000 - PLUS LABOR ...And it will take a very long time to get it, not to mention the time required to "re-wire the car".


 Hi Guy, 
The dealer quoted this very high price to you because they have strict rules to almost always do repairs by replacing the faulty component. Any component or assembly that cannot be disassembled in a simple way, i.e. by unscrewing/disconnecting etc., therefore must be replaced as a complete assembly. For defective electrical wiring, only repair wires are allowed as an exception to this rule. 
This implies that the dealer, for example, will not cut cable harnesses in order to attach a new connector with repair wires. Also, it means that your dealer may have to rip apart just about the whole car when it is about the main wiring harness, going from back to front. 

It is not a hopeless situation though. Your dealer, no matter how skilled the technicians are, just isn't the best place for an economical repair for the above reason. 
Alternative places to go to are enterprises which are specialized in car electronics. Companies who do after market installation of car stereo may have the proper tools and component resources to help you with your problem. 

What exactly is "the electrical box"? Is it one of the wiring stations? It would be interesting to see a photo of this box, what the problem is and where it is located in the car. 

Willem


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## guybguy (Jul 21, 2005)

*Electrical Box description and location*

This thread discusses the problem and includes a photo of the box on a W12 (mine is a V8). The box, while somewhat different, is in the same basic location - on the passenger side and near the windshield, wipers, etc. 
I take some hope from your message. I will see the car today and try to get a better sense of how much wire is corroded, etc.


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## guybguy (Jul 21, 2005)

*sorry, thread is...*

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-into-Cabin-by-way-of-Electrical-Box-TOC-done


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

WillemBal said:


> What exactly is "the electrical box"? Is it one of the wiring stations? It would be interesting to see a photo of this box, what the problem is and where it is located in the car.


 Hi Willem: 

I suspect that what Guy is referring to is the fuse and relay box that is located in the air intake plenum area, on the right hand side of a LHD car. The photo below shows this box - please disregard the callout on the photo identifying the J329 relay, I put that callout there for another thread but failed to keep the original picture without the callout overlaid. 

Anyway - this box is located fairly high up in the plenum. It is a waterproof container, because it is exposed to the elements. Normally, it will stay waterproof unless someone removes the cover and then fails to properly re-install the cover. VW has published a service bulletin emphasizing the importance of properly sealing up the cover on this box if it is opened, and they have even developed a secondary (back-up) securing clip to install on the box if it is opened after the car leaves the factory. That Service Bulletin is attached to the thread referenced in the post directly above (Water Leakage into Cabin by way of Electrical Box). 

There is no need to open this box for regular, routine service. There is also virtually no need to open this box for troubleshooting purposes - the only time it would be necessary to open it would be to replace a fuse or a relay that has been identified as defective by a diagnostic scan. Despite this, some technicians have, I guess, opened the box up to have a look in there, and then failed to properly close it up... perhaps they are unaware that it needs to remain sealed against water infiltration, but heck, that ought to be obvious to anyone simply from the fact that it is not located in a dry, protected area. 

If water gets into the box, that water can then seep into the cabin by capillary action, flowing along the (sealed up) electrical cable bundles that lead from the box, through the front firewall of the cabin, and then into (amongst other places) the Central Electrical Controller, which is located on the sloping forward portion of the passenger side footwell. There are several cable bundles that lead directly from this electrical box to the Central Electrical Controller. 

Michael 

*Electronics Box in Right Plenum Chamber (See Wiring Diagram 1, pages 15 to 20 inclusive)*


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## guybguy (Jul 21, 2005)

*Update*

I am, cautiously, feeling a bit better. 

I saw the car today, and am hopeful we can resolve this far short of re-wiring the entire vehicle. 

They are willing to work creatively, so are going to remove the clips and corroded connections within the box and examine to see how far the corrosion actually extends beneath the insulation of the wire. 

This leak is a new problem, so it is not as though significant runs of wire have been submerged for any length of time. We are hopeful we can work within that area and resolve it. 

We will do some examination of wiring on the cabin side of the firewall, particularly if what we find in the box shows corrosion running very far in the wire. 

Oh yes, and we have ordered a new top for the box with its integrated seal. The old seal has definitely been flattened in spots due to time and pressure. 

At least there seems to be a logical step short of re-wiring the entire thing.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

guybguy said:


> I am, cautiously, feeling a bit better....At least there seems to be a logical step short of re-wiring the entire thing.


 Hi Guy, 
Well, that is good to hear. I read your previous horror story which you described back in May in post 106 
There you wrote that the Kessy module, the starter, and the ECU was replaced by the dealer after a horror scenario with an engine trying to start itself during heavy rain. Besides replacing these defective components and taking away the cause of the problem, did your dealer also perform preventive measures? (to check possible other sources of water ingress with the potential of causing similar problems). The damaged cover with integrated seal apparently is the cause of water ingress now. 

Another question is whether you brought the car because it was leaking water again, or because you were experiencing any problems with the engine or the transmission? Almost all of the relays and fuses in the electronics box (in the right plenum chamber) are there to supply power to engine/transmission components. If you haven't been experiencing any problems, other than just water in the left footwell, there doesn't seem to be an urgency to replace or even repair cabling. Then all your dealer needs to do besides removing water, is to replace the cover with seal and make sure it is tight. 

Willem


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## guybguy (Jul 21, 2005)

Willem, 
I have had the pleasure of experiencing water in the cabin from 3 of the 4 known means of its. getting there. Only the first of these came to light due to electronics issues, the subsequent two thankfully were a matter of detecting water - immediately - and before any electronics problems. 

The first event was due to the clogged air intake plenum. When that happened the event surfaced due to the crazy behavior of the car, and the water was discovered afterward. 
At that time the sunroof drains were checked and cleaned. 

After having the car back for two days I had one case of erratic air conditioner behavior and then detected the sound of sloshing water. This was attributed to a clogged evaporator drain. I had a list of smaller nagging items that we dealt with while the car was in. 

Having the car back for a weekend and following heavy rain, I found water in the passenger footwell. There were not electronics issues. The box was the source of this leak. How was the seal compromised? I do not know. There has certainly been a lot of activity under the hood these last few months, so perhaps that is how it happened. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the seal is clearly flat in some areas and not in others. 

There is water in the box. There is some corrosion (green oxidation) at two points where the wire is exposed. My hope is that water has been present for a sufficiently short duration that it is very isolated. Certainly I hope that the disastrous scenario suggested by the regional VW guy is not where we end up. 

I appreciate your interest and am interested in any thoughts you or anyone else might offer. Keep your fingers crossed for me as they get into the wires next week.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

guybguy said:


> Willem,
> I have had the pleasure of experiencing water in the cabin from 3 of the 4 known means of its. getting there.


 Do you live in Atlantis?!!  

I drove through a highway puddle at speed yesterday, enough to trigger the ABS, now I am worrying about splash. 

Is it a general view that we should ask the dealer to do these checks, or will their prodding about just disturb what isn't broken? 

Chris


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## jkuisma (Nov 23, 2009)

> There is water in the box. There is some corrosion (green oxidation) at two points where the wire is exposed. My hope is that water has been present for a sufficiently short duration that it is very isolated.


 I wish the best of luck for the troubleshooting sessions with your car. And I think my experiences with water and resulting corrosion are pretty encouraging... 

Plain water is not even nearly as bad as the wintertime road spray (with road salt and dirt). The salt is a magic substance which accelerates the corrosive process exponentially. 

If you expose a (plain, electrolytically zinc-coated) VAG-type connector pin to water, it will oxidate. If the exposure lasts only a few days and everything then dries up, there will be visible oxidation and even some minor contact problems. But, in this case, you can count on that a few squirts of CRC or similar contact spray and wiping off the oxidation will cure the contact problem. I have been working on maaaaany older cars, with poorly shielded connectors, and which have been driven in our pretty brutal fall/winter conditions. Nearly all contact problems I have encountered have been fixed simply by taking the connectors apart (by extracting the pins from the connector body) and then applying contact spray and filing away any corrosion. 

I have seen more serious cases, though. One example was my previous Audi A6. After four years of use, the headlight auto-levelling no longer worked. My investigations revealed a poor seal on the headlight connector. The seal had let water in the connector and this had been going on (probably) since the car was new. The upper pins - carrying power to the lamp filaments - had only minor surface oxidation. The lower pins, responsible for the auto-levelling signalling, had been submerged in water for who knows how long and were completely corroded away! Only the loose wires were hanging in there. In this case, as in many other cases I have tackled, repair was simple: as you strip off the cable isolation, you'll notice that the water will not get much further than half an inch or so from the end of the cable - this is even if the cable is angled downwards. All you need to do, in this case, is to cut away the first half inch of corroded copper conductor and crimp on a new connector pin. And keep your fingers crossed that the shortened cable still reaches the connector. 

But, all in all, I have NEVER seen a case where the water damage to wiring would have extended much further inside the copper conductor core. Not even if the cable had been totally submerged. And having water inside the "wiring loom" (meaning the bunch of cables, wrapped in hockey tape) does not do any harm at all. The plastic cover of each individual wire will keep the conductors dry. 

I would be amazed if your repair involves more than finding all the connectors which have been exposed to water, taking them apart, thoroughly cleaning all pins, and replacing a few pins here and there, if necessary. 

As is already mentioned here, no-one in their sane mind would seriously consider replacing the whole wiring loom to fix your issue - even though it is the official recommended procedure. 

Jouko


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Paximus said:


> Is it a general view that we should ask the dealer to do these checks, or will their prodding about just disturb what isn't broken?


 Hi Chris, 
What you wrote is probably all true.  Normally mechanics do not service things which aren't defective, except for regular maintenance checks and additional work according to a technical bulletin. 
To prevent dealer prodding, some members, including myself, would do these checks themselves. It only little work, and with the aid of the many useful information in this thread even fun to do. But I'm sure you can trust the dealer when you explain your concern and show him the relevant technical bulletins and the various threads which explain how to keep the sunroof and plenum chamber drains clean. 

Willem


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

guybguy said:


> Willem,
> I have had the pleasure of experiencing water in the cabin from 3 of the 4 known means of its. getting there. Only the first of these came to light due to electronics issues, the subsequent two thankfully were a matter of detecting water - immediately - and before any electronics problems.


 Guy, 
I think in the UK they call that a hat-trick.  Good that you were able to prevent another event with electric failures. My experience is that when no electrical failures occurred yet, the chance is small that they will arise in the future... if the cause of the problem is taken away. But I would clean the contacts anyway, in the way Jouko described. And to make sure that there is no water in the relays. 



guybguy said:


> The box was the source of this leak. How was the seal compromised? I do not know. There has certainly been a lot of activity under the hood these last few months, so perhaps that is how it happened. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the seal is clearly flat in some areas and not in others.


 The dealer has to make sure that this cover is properly shut. There is a TB about it. 



guybguy said:


> There is water in the box. There is some corrosion (green oxidation) at two points where the wire is exposed. My hope is that water has been present for a sufficiently short duration that it is very isolated.


 Many church roofs in Europe are made of copper and last for at least 30 years. Many rain water drain systems of houses in the mountains are made of copper too. The surface turn green very fast, however it takes very long time to corrode. 

No not start with drying the wires, connectors relays etc. First flush or drown them with distilled water. The purpose of this is to remove salts and acids which were present in the water, responsible for the corrosion. Then us alcohol or IPA (main ingredient of window shield washing liquid - not Indian Pale Ale). The alcohol absorbs the remaining water quickly and then dries. 
While typing the above and looking for CRC products on the internet, I bumped into a good guide for water damage treatment by CRC in *This Link*. 
When you consider to let your dealer do this for you, please make sure he has done it before and is familiar with treating this type of water damage. If not, there is a chance that he introduces new problems instead of preventing them...:banghead: 

Willem


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

I used to work on aviation navaid troubleshooting. I was once called out by a local team where a DME transmitter had been held powered on during several days of flooding. 

The major damage wasn't corrosion, it was electrolytic transfer of the conducting copper between points held at different DC potentials for many hours.  

In that instance the only cure was to replace the lost copper parts, ie most of it! But this would not alter the excellent advice above. I am sure only small pieces of wiring near the terminals would be affected like that, for example the disappearing headlight motor plug pins that Jouko mentioned above. 

Chris


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## johnt26 (Dec 3, 2009)

*Same issue in a Volvo*

Hello All,

Happy Thanksgiving to those that celebrate!

This forum is even helping Volvo owners! We are celebrating Thanksgiving at my sister-in-law's home. She mentioned that her Volvo XC-90 has a smell and interior fog issue. Right away, I think sunroof drains. We found a nice DIY here for unclogging the drains. They are similar to the Phaeton's only they terminate in the base of the "A" pillars.

My son and I followed the procedure for locating the drains, sure enough both drains were clogged at multiple locations. We cleaned them out with some wire and removed the 90 degree elbow fittings and cleaned those with high pressure water.

We found water in the driver's footwell and several gallons in the floor area just forward of the rear hatch. After cleaning that up we cleaned the mold that had started growing in various areas throughout the vehicle.

It has been mentioned previously by Michael and others that Phaetons/VWs are not the only vehicles that need their drain systems maintained, this is another example of the issue!

I'm Thankful for many things, including this excellent forum!!:beer:


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## ttowles (Jan 18, 2012)

Is it possible to get the pics for the sunroof and plenum drains put on here again/rehosted??


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## wiztell (Jul 1, 2012)

*hi can you help me i have water in my w12 06*

can you email me pics of the best way to clean out the drains

thanks
David


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## seawind3000 (Sep 17, 2010)

*Water coming in Sunroof switch!*

Well I went to my Phaeton this morning only to find water all over my center gear console and still dripping from my dome lights / sunroof switch. I suspect the sunroof drains are blocked. So I removed the "A' and "C" post trims to get at the drain systems. I'm still on the drivers side. The rear drain runs but the blue hose/ball connection is leaking at the blue hose. The "C" post trim is wet, I will repair the blue hose. 

I disconnected the front blue hose, lower "A" post, and the drain flows well to that point. I have run a thin plastic line 45 inches out towards the fender, their was moderate resistance the last 15 inches. I then ran compressed air (20psi) from the "A" post connection out towards the front, all went well. I will test the front drain tomorrow, if all is well, I will start on the right side. 

Can I post pictures here, it would be nice while I have all the trim off. 

Mike


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## laser21 (Jan 25, 2012)

Yes, please post some pictures!!!


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Sounds like you are being thorough! Pics would be interesting... 

Don't forget that (according to various posts) use of compressed air on the rear drains can pop the junction half way down the pipe run and cause another leak. 

Best, 
Chris


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

ttowles said:


> Is it possible to get the pics for the sunroof and plenum drains put on here again/rehosted??


 Photos have been re-hosted. 

Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

seawind3000 said:


> Can I post pictures here, it would be nice while I have all the trim off.


 Mike: 

As you can see, I appended your new discussion of sunroof drain cleaning onto the existing thread that is listed in the Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category). My goal here is to keep all the information on this topic together in one place, to make it easier for people to find the information in the future. 

I have also re-hosted all of the pictures on page 1 of this thread - the pictures that were lost when Rich at OEM Plus ended support for photo hosting. 

Michael


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## seawind3000 (Sep 17, 2010)

Thanks for re-hosting the pictures. I thought the front drains were lower on the bulk-head. 

As a note, both rear blue hoses were split just aft of the ball connection. Both "C" post trims were damp to wet on the inside. It is only 6 bolts to remove the A to C post trim to check the drain hose. "DON'T TOUCH THE CURTAIN AIR BAG SYSTEMS !!!" there are warning signs.  

Mike


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## anthonymck (Mar 8, 2012)

*water in front passenger footwell*

I continue to have this problem - during heavy rains. I know it's not from the rubber fittings underneath the vehicle, since the car has been parked the last two times during heavy downpours and subsequently found water in the footwell. Additionally, I purchased a speedometer cable and twisted it down the passenger sunroof drain until i saw it appear through the front drain exit.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Anthony,

Have you also ruled out water coming from the front electronics box, and perhaps the A/C evaporator drain? These also feature in the forum TOC page (once in that page use your browser's text search function, usually Ctrl-F, and look for the words _water in cabin_).

Chris


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

With Rain finally predicted for this week in the SF Bay Area , I went ahead and cleaned the sunroof and air intake plenum drains last weekend. This was the first time I did that and I wanted to share my experience. First I cleaned the air intake plenum drains and it was hard getting a vacuum cleaner nozzle in the tight space below the brake master cylinder/booster but this tool was very helpful and made it easy to pull leaves out that were too big to be flushed down the drain.
http://www.harborfreight.com/24-inch-2-in-1-pickup-tool-94162.html (I used it without the magnetic tip).

For the sunroof drains I found clear plastic tubing that fit perfectly in the holes at the sunroof. That way I avoided having to put water into the sunroof drain tray and any associated spills. 

Hope this helps anybody who does this in the future.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Over the past few years, I have notice that a considerable number of the plenum debris covers that I have removed from Phaetons have missing engagement tabs on the underside of the cover. Where these tabs have gone I do not know, although I suspect that most of them are probably at the bottom of the plenum chamber (probably blocking the drain) as a result of people tugging at the cover without first properly disengaging the retention tabs.

The tabs I am speaking of are on the bottom side of the cover, directly underneath the four twist-fasteners that are called out in the photo below.

*Plenum Chamber Debris Screen*









This is what the retention tab looks like when it is installed:

*Retention tab on underside*









I have since discovered that it is possible to order replacement retention tabs from the VW parts department. The replacement tabs are cheap, about $3 each. The part number, 3B5 867 468, is clearly visible on the tab.

*Replacement Tabs*









So, if you notice any missing tabs when you undertake the annual "Spring Cleaning of the Air Intake Plenum" - a task you should do every spring - now you know it is easy to get replacement tabs. They just press to fit onto the remaining twist-fastener that sticks through the cover, no tools are required. When fitting the replacement tab, look carefully and you will see a small curved, recessed channel on the tab and a matching pin sticking out on the twist-fastener - you need to correctly line these up, then orient the tab to the correct direction (to engage the metal tab on the chassis of the car) before you press the tab into the square channel of the twist-fastener.

Michael


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## anthonymck (Mar 8, 2012)

*Water in Front Footwell*

Chris - after a few more "soakings" - and observing now the water coming into the driver footwell from near the parking brake, I do believe it is in fact the air intake plenum (not the direct intake, but the area under the hood near the hood hinge arms). I had cleaned out the plenum on the passenger side, and need to do so on the drivers side. I noticed a pool of water underneath the drivers side wiper arm, which I believe is the source of the water. I am not clear, though - whether the large red drain outlets underneath the car are designed to serve as the conduits for this pooling water? Or is there another drain access somewhere that should be opened up when I clean out the driver side debris? 

Getting there -


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Anthony:

The two large red drain outlets in the center of the car drain all water from the air intake plenum. But...

There is a nipple on the firewall that delivers water from the sunroof drain into that air intake plenum. The nipple has a hose attached to the other side of it. Check to see if water drains out of that nipple after you pour a little water (perhaps 8 ounces or so, using an indoor plant watering can) into the front corner of the sunroof area (with the glass panel fully open). You might need to massage that nipple a bit to release any debris that has been trapped in there and is causing water to back up in the tube leading from the front corner of the sunroof assembly to the nipple. The photos below show the nipples that drain into the air intake plenum - there is one on each side of the car. Be aware that these are photos of a LHD car, so the location of other stuff in the plenum area might be a little different on your RHD car. But, the nipples should be in the same place on the firewall, more or less.

If you go back to page 1 of this discussion and study the pictures there, I think you will be able to find these drain nipples and confirm that they are not blocked by debris. Whatever you do, DON'T try to remove them.

*Forward Sunroof Drain Nipples
*_Driver Side of *LHD *Car shown._









_Passenger Side of *LHD *Car shown._


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## T Spataru (May 1, 2013)

*Problem solved*

Thanks for sharing. 
Problem solved
:wave:


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## jenvee828 (Jun 25, 2011)

Hi Michael, 

Just another photo re-host request. Working on a related issue with my Phaeton.

Thanks!


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Jen,

Please can you let me know the post numbers where there are the missing photos or attachments that you need, and I'll see what can be done.

The numbers I need are the "#99' type of label at the top right of each post, between the edit icon and the tick box which allows you to select the post.

Regards,
Chris


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

*Rear Sunroof Drain Leak*

Found another way for the sunroof drains to leak into the car. After the last few rain storms I noticed a lot of condensation on the inside windows of my newly acquired parts car. It was to the point that drops were coming off the windshield and onto the dash. I also notice a few tiny spots of mold on the rear seat so pulled out the rear seat bottom cushion and sure enough there was standing water on both sides. After some trouble shooting it turns out the water was leaking from both rear sunroof drains. I had removed the C-Pillar headliner covers on both side to get access to where the rear sunroof drain tubing connects to the sunroof tray. I checked both drains and they were clear but during the last storm I checked and noticed that the water was dripping out between the blue tubing and the yellowish rubber connector to attaches to the sunroof tray. I put some duct tape over it and sure enough that did the trick. I think the leak was pronounced on my car because it's sitting in my driveway at a slight incline so all the water that makes it through the sunroof seal goes out the rear sunroof drains. Hope this helps someone in the future when troubleshooting water intrusion in the backseat area.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Stephan,

Thanks a lot for showing us this cause of water ingress. There's always something new to learn!

Regards,
Chris


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## dlouie (Oct 31, 2008)

Well it seems that I have developed the same leak just today.

Damon


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

I noticed it when I saw water drops on the rear grab handles. Taking the C-Pillar trim off is not particularly difficult if you know where the fasteners are. The Bentley manual shows it pretty well, let me know if you want photos of the attachment points, I still have the covers off.


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## Odd Egil (Apr 5, 2016)

*Front sunroof drain problem*

Hello. I'm new to this forum, having bought my 02' Phaeton just a year ago. 
(I'm not especially steady in English, but I hope to be understood anyvay)

I've stumbled upon this thread due to having problems with water intrusion on the front driver-side footwell.
I recon that the front drain tubes on driver side has cracked up due to age. This is because approx 90% of the water ends up in the cabin, but there is still some drops of water coming out from the outlet vent in the engine compartment. (I have poured water from a bottle down the drain-pipe) So, as I've already understood, there is not a "quick fix" on this problem. Anyway, I'm interested to know what other owners have ended up choosing as solution? Have any of you for example succeeded in solving the problem by stepping down a smaller rubber tube inside the original? Could an alterntive option be to plug up the hole in which the relevant tube starts from at the sunroof, and in that way prevent any water from channelling down the relevant tube? (The other three drain-tubes on my car is still working properly) 
Or is the common opinion here, that there is no way around this problem, then an very expansive repair / change of tubes which I also assume includes disassembly of the entire dashboard?

Please write to me if you have any experience to share with me. 
I've rented a dry garage for it for now, and I havent come across any electrical problems yet.


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## pgoober (Jan 4, 2009)

*Clearing a blocked sunroof drain*

Step I would take immediately: Check the end of the drain that is in the engine plenum. It should terminate at a rubber plug. The exit hole in the tip of this rubber piece is smaller than the inner diameter of the drain tube. If you cut the end off the rubber plug, this will create a wider exit hole and help pass whatever solid material is blocking the flow of water from your sunroof drain.

The set up is very similar to the set up in other VW products (many of which suffer from similar problems with plugged sunroof drains in older cars). With the caveat that phaeton disassembly is more difficult, most of the solutions folks use for other VW products also work here. 

-brian


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## Phaetonlvr (Feb 26, 2013)

I would check that the cover of the fuse box that is right next to the sunroof drain outlet in the engine plenum, is secure, see post #18 in this thread.

If you think the tubing inside the A-pillar is broken than you should be able to get to it by removing the A-pillar cover which is not too tricky as long as you have access to the Bentley manual that describes the location of the fasteners pretty well.


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## johnnyjiang (Feb 24, 2014)

Mine cracked few months ago and I did not notice soon enough. I found my kessy stopped working all of a sudden fisrt, then when I reached down there to feel the carpet, it was soaked wet. It ends up cost me 1400 dollars in total, about 300 in diagnosing where was the leak from, 300 in gluing the tube, and 800 in replacing the kessy and reprogramming it. It was not even 2 years since I replaced the previous Kessy module in 2015.. So it was a very expensive repair.

Johnny


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## rrussell (Sep 9, 2003)

I just a saw a small leak from the passenger side rear, water coming from the ceiling. It stopped but I need to investigate.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Odd Egil (Apr 5, 2016)

*Reconnected Sunroof drain-tube driver side*

Sunroof-drain tube on driver side:

Couldn't find a way to post the images, but today I managed to reconnect the drain pipe to the hose on the driver side.
I can't really understand why some people in here, is posting that this is especially difficult, and that it is necessary to dismantle parts of the dashboard to access the drain-tube exit hose. 

You only have to remove the A-pillar cover and loosen the drain-tube from that side. Then, and once you have disconnected the wipers, and got rid of the wiper-cover tray, you will have plenty of room (I worked with both hands) to access the exit-hose from the engine-compartment. 
Simply remove the rubber hose from the firewall, stick your hand through the hole in the wall, and pull out the drain-pipe so that you can reconnect the two from the engine compartment. Just be aware not to pull it too far. I was able to reach both ends with my hands to ensure that I didn't pull it too far and out of sight from the inside of the car. I used pressured air to clean the tube, and glued it together with the hose so that it wouldn't fall off again. As soon as I had assured that the hose was properly assembled to the firewall again, I reconnected the other side of the drain tube at the A pillar. The whole job took approx. 1 hour, and doesn`t require any special skills. 


Odd Egil

4/10 17: Uploaded pictures here:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/J3UB1wd6GcdIzzkz1


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

To post the pictures, first upload them to a photo hosting site, make them public, then post the link to them here.

I can think of at least two reasons why people might find the procedure difficult, the first being the removal of the A pillar cover, and the second being the removal of the strip along the bottom of the windscreen.


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## Odd Egil (Apr 5, 2016)

invisiblewave said:


> To post the pictures, first upload them to a photo hosting site, make them public, then post the link to them here.
> 
> I can think of at least two reasons why people might find the procedure difficult, the first being the removal of the A pillar cover, and the second being the removal of the strip along the bottom of the windscreen.


Well, the A-pillar cover sits a little tighter then on other cars. But that is mainly because the clips are stronger (and longer). I studied a picture of the backside of the part, and then used a bit force at the right spot.
After a few minutes of testing, it came off quite easy in one piece. I spent more time getting it back on though. Because you will have to make sure that all clips are at the exact correct point before pressing the cover back on. Ore else, you wil risk getting holes in the upper drain-pipe section.


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## Odd Egil (Apr 5, 2016)

invisiblewave said:


> To post the pictures, first upload them to a photo hosting site, make them public, then post the link to them here.


Ok, any suggestions of sites I may use? (This is really difficult though  )


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't really know, I don't use them, I run a webserver to serve mine up. Any photo upload site will work, Google Photos for example.


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## phlover (Jun 2, 2017)

simple question 

cant we just cut the sunrrof drains a liitle bit mor open , and the air intake aswell ? 

regards


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## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Odd Egil said:


> Well, the A-pillar cover sits a little tighter then on other cars. But that is mainly because the clips are stronger (and longer). I studied a picture of the backside of the part, and then used a bit force at the right spot.
> After a few minutes of testing, it came off quite easy in one piece. I spent more time getting it back on though. Because you will have to make sure that all clips are at the exact correct point before pressing the cover back on. Ore else, you wil risk getting holes in the upper drain-pipe section.


Can you explain in more detail which A-pillar cover you're talking about? Michael's post on the first page suggests that the dashboard needs to come out for access.


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## Odd Egil (Apr 5, 2016)

invisiblewave said:


> Can you explain in more detail which A-pillar cover you're talking about? Michael's post on the first page suggests that the dashboard needs to come out for access.


The dashboard does not have to come out to solve this problem.
See the pictures in this link...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/J3UB1wd6GcdIzzkz1


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## Redbaron536 (Aug 9, 2018)

PanEuropean said:


> *Re: Yikes...Water in Footwell (M5forPhaeton)*
> 
> Just a follow-up post:
> 
> ...


Thanks for perfect pictures Michael. My 2012 3.0 TDI had the same issue, even so bad that it ran out from the ducting's for the rear seats, plus both sides up front. Cleaned out what I found up front with a clever little claw, but was not so much. Filled with water on both sides and could see it just came a few drops below. Lifted the car, went under, found the outlets, pierced with a steel wire, and out came two litres of water, perfect Flushed afterwards to clean out all. 
For info the left and right bay are interconnected so basically you should be relatively ok with only one side open, although not ideal. The left side is a bit harder to get to and pierce open due to the exhaust manifold and cat, but goes with some patience. Now both fully open

PS: Also had the issue with trunk lights out, opened the insulation and found several to be broken. Reason on my car was that cables were twisted hard from factory, causing much more tension than if they had been side by side. Now all good.


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## Redbaron536 (Aug 9, 2018)

PanEuropean said:


> *Re: Yikes...Water in Footwell (PanEuropean)*
> 
> Another possible way to get access to these two drains is to remove the front suspension, the engine, transmission, and driveline, but this is time-consuming to do and should only be considered as a last resort.
> 
> *Getting access to the Plenum Drain - the hard way*


Thanks for perfect pictures Michael. My 2012 3.0 TDI had the same issue, even so bad that it ran out from the ducting's for the rear seats, plus both sides up front. Cleaned out what I found up front with a clever little claw, but was not so much. Filled with water on both sides and could see it just came a few drops below. Lifted the car, went under, found the outlets, pierced with a steel wire, and out came two litres of water, perfect Flushed afterwards to clean out all.
For info the left and right bay are interconnected so basically you should be relatively ok with only one side open, although not ideal. The left side is a bit harder to get to and pierce open due to the exhaust manifold and cat, but goes with some patience. Now both fully open

PS: Also had the issue with trunk lights out, opened the insulation and found several to be broken. Reason on my car was that cables were twisted hard from factory, causing much more tension than if they had been side by side. Now all good.


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