# FUELING CIS?!



## cnbrown (May 31, 2001)

Topic says most of it...I was about to get into a CIS-e turbo setup, but that flopped...now Im onto a CIS 2.0 turbo setup...although I am pretty knowledgable about the CIS-e injection, i have no knowledge about the CIS... But anyway, what are ways of fueling a CIS motor running aprox. 8-10 psi?? I have heard alot about shimming the fuel distributor and running a hobbs switch...but again, I have no idea how that would work, what the hobbs switch runs off of, etc. SO HELP ME OUT GUYS! Thanx in advance...


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## SeVoN (Jun 18, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (cnbrown)*

Well, what I am planning on doing is running an audi 5000 turbo warmup regulator. It has a vacuum line which goes to the intake manifold and when it senses alot of pressure in the intake manifold, it lowers control pressure thereby increasing fuel flow to the injectors. The great thing about this is that its only used when needed too.
Shimming the fuel distributor is also something that should work well.


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## cnbrown (May 31, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (SeVoN)*

Any ideas on HOW to shim the fuel dizzy???


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## Stephen Webb (Apr 12, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (cnbrown)*

There is a bolt looking thing that screws into the fuel distributor. Unscrew it (fuel will most likely come out - let the car sit for several hours to minimize this). Pull the bolt and mass of washers out, add a washer, screw it back in, etc.
-Steve


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## VW_Adrian (Oct 27, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Stephen Webb)*

now u really lost me there ....
what did u say i have to do ???


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## Stephen Webb (Apr 12, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (VW_Adrian)*

Hmm..
Probably best to buy the Bentley manual for your car. The fuel system chapter has pictures and well thought out instructions on adjusting the system pressure.
-Steve


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## cnbrown (May 31, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Stephen Webb)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Hmm..
Probably best to buy the Bentley manual for your car. The fuel system chapter has pictures and well thought out instructions on adjusting the system pressure.
-Steve[HR][/HR]​ are you running a CIS turbo setup...? What is the deal w/ the hobbs switch and what does that run off of..?


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## Stephen Webb (Apr 12, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (cnbrown)*

I cant really claim I am running one yet. It's in my garage right now, waiting on another downpipe to finish the job.
The hobbs switch idea is basically a pressure switch that activates extra injector(s) to give fueling under boost. There are things called "Extra Injector Controllers" or EIC that some companies sell. They are probably a better solution than just an on-off hobbs switch.
Of course you need an extra injector, a pressure regulated fuel supply, and the controller. The hobbs switch is a hack and probably hard to get right. 
Good luck
-Steve


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## cnbrown (May 31, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Stephen Webb)*

Is there a cold start injector on the CIS or just a warm up regulator...the hobbs switch sounds similar to what i was gunna do on the CIS-e; would in turn add fuel through the cold start injector...what do you mean by pressure regulated fuel supply exactly<--how could i go about that? Thanx again


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## Stephen Webb (Apr 12, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (cnbrown)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Is there a cold start injector on the CIS or just a warm up regulator...the hobbs switch sounds similar to what i was gunna do on the CIS-e; would in turn add fuel through the cold start injector...what do you mean by pressure regulated fuel supply exactly<--how could i go about that? Thanx again [HR][/HR]​Yes, there is a cold start injector on CIS (most of them, anyway). As far as regulating the fuel pressure, I am going to back up on that one a bit. I don't really know what the pressure coming out of the fuel distributor to the CS injector is. Maybe it's already reagulated down to 35 psi or so? 
If it's system pressure (in the 70 PSI range), I'm not sure that most "normal" electronic injectors take well to such high pressures. Again, though, I don't know the pressure going to the CS valve.
-Steve


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## cnbrown (May 31, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Stephen Webb)*

TTT


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (cnbrown)*

there's both a cold start valve and a control pressure regulator on cis, i added a .042" shim and that's all i needed for a n/a 16v setup. each .020" will raise the fuel pressure 4psi. keep that in mind.
my turbo A2 uses an additional injector controller you can see it on the 16v forum if u so please....


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## cnbrown (May 31, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (killa)*

got a link to dat mr. Killa...?


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## oneflygti (Jul 3, 2000)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (cnbrown)*


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## cnbrown (May 31, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (oneflygti)*















http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## cnbrown (May 31, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (cnbrown)*

TTT


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## cnbrown (May 31, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (cnbrown)*

lets stir this topic up again


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## Butcher (Jan 31, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Stephen Webb)*

There is no pressure to the fuel injector. It will flow fuel and the injector will not open till the spring in the injector is forced open. This 'opening pressure' of the injector is usually at 35 psi [or there abouts]. If the injector was opening at a higher rate the fuel pressure in the injector line would be higher. But the fuel distributor does not regulate pressure [to the injectors] just flow.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (cnbrown)*

quote:[HR][/HR]got a link to dat mr. Killa...?[HR][/HR]​No, i dont have a link, but i read it in the Bentley i think. Trust me, it works, i've done it on my rabbit 16v.
each .020" shim will increase cis fuel pressure by 4psi
an audi 5000 warm up regulator would be a nice swap too, just put it in place of the control pressure regulator and like the people said above, it'll sense boost in the manifold through the vaccum line and raise fuel pressure.
hope this helps.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (cnbrown)*

quote:[HR][/HR]got a link to dat mr. Killa...?[HR][/HR]​I'm sorry, you probably meant for a link to the turbo cis-e A2... here it is... http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=157479 
I have since added an 02A tranny, working fine right now.



[Modified by killa, 10:34 AM 1-21-2002]


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## cnbrown (May 31, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (killa)*

Thanx guys...So should I expect a rich mixture when not in boost?..even if the 5000 regulator is boost sensitive, It just seems that by shimming the fuel dizzy too would give me a RICH mixture when not in boost...?????? Thanx again


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## cnbrown (May 31, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (cnbrown)*

Last bump and I'll let this post die


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (cnbrown)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Thanx guys...So should I expect a rich mixture when not in boost?..even if the 5000 regulator is boost sensitive, It just seems that by shimming the fuel dizzy too would give me a RICH mixture when not in boost...?????? Thanx again[HR][/HR]​if u shim the fuel dizzy you'll have a rich mixture all through the rpm band. The warm up reg. will only help u when in boost.


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## cnbrown (May 31, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (killa)*

Sweet....thanx...well maybe just the warm up reg would be enough? 10PSI max? Maybe so...then I wouldn't have to be running a rich mixture all of the time


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## arvcube (Aug 11, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (cnbrown)*

my friend ran the turbo audi WUR on with his arkay kit and said it was good only up to 10 psi...im runnin a hobbs switch on my turbo rabbit pickup...crude but works good to 15psi...i dont think the coldstart injector is a good "additional fueler" because: its location sucks. fuel flow will be against boosted air flow so chances of leaning out in cylinders 3 and 4 could be likely. what i did was hook up my hobbs switch to the coolant temp sensor.. under boost, the hobbs switch grounds out the coolant temp sensor wire that runs to the k jetronic box, making the fuel system think the engine is cold...therefore, cold engine fuel enrichment...which equals enrichment through all 4 injections because of the duty cycle change...in my application, its works to about 15psi before the mixture starts to lean out...sorry for long post...


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## cnbrown (May 31, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (arvcube)*

ARVCUBE-I've tried to send you IM's more than a few times because i had a CIS-e turbo setup project and Craig(stealthJetta) told me you were the man to talk to...my screen name is Chainbreakr, so if you see it pop up youll know who it is now







Anyway, great info, but running the switch off the coolant temp sensor doesn't cause problems w/ the cooling system operating normally?


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## psi (Oct 18, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (cnbrown)*

The 5k WUR only changes the control pressure(fuel mixture)under boost.The Volvo 240 turbo will do the same thing.


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## MadGT1 (Jul 22, 2000)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (psi)*

ANyone have a AUdi 5000 Warm up regulator or a Volvo ??? (I need one )


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## cnbrown (May 31, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (MadGT1)*

the Audi unit is probably a little more plug and play as opposed to the volvo one I'm guessing...


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## Stephen Webb (Apr 12, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (cnbrown)*

I have the Volvo 240 turbo one on my setup. I have done a decent amount of research for this setup; I know less about the Audi one. Here goes:
The Audi unit has one vacuum line, I believe. This gets connected to the manifold, and under boost conditions the control pressure lowers, increasing the air flap lift height, and hence more fuel.
The volvo unit has two vacuum connections. One has a check valve in line with it. Both end up going to a vacuum switch that passes manifold vacuum only when the engine is cold. It's fairly complicated, IMO, but the result of all of this is as follows: 
You get cold control pressure when you first start the car (as is normal). After a minute or so, the cold control pressure goes away, and you have normal control pressure. On acceleration, the control pressure drops (this has to do with the one hose having the check valve - that port still sees high vacuum, and the other port sees lower vacuum, resulting in lower control pressure.) On boost, the control pressure increases (more?) also. Giving you cold running acceleration enrichment and cold running boost enrichment. This all goes away once some control circuit determines the engine 
is up to temp, and the vacuum valve gets shut off. 
Having said all of this, I use the Volvo unit on my car, and it seems to work pretty well. I only have one hose connected, and no check valves or vacuum cutout valves. I strictly use it as an on-boost enrichment device. No sign of leaning out whatsoever (7 psi, 6500 RPM), and in fact I think it runs a bit rich for my taste. It *definitely* runs too rich with the full throttle switch in effect too, so I have disable this.
Volvo actually handles the normal boost enrichment with a fixed duty cycle on the frequency valve, similar to the full throttle switch on VWs, though I think they use a different duty cycle, and use a hobbs switch of sorts. I believe that running a hobbs switch to the full throttle switch may give you a good amount of enrichment, though I'm not convinced it's enough alone. However, if you have the volvo computer (and wiring, and have figured out which terminal does what), I believe you could use that setup and do fine - several Volvo folks run with this enrichment and higher than stock boost and do just fine. In addition to the normal enrichment, the Volvo comptuers have a "terminal 11" trick which provides even more duty cycle, hence even richer mixtures. (90% duty cycle? I forget) Most say this is too rich, though. From my poking and prodding at my CIS computer (VW, not Volvo) I suspect that this higher enrichment scheme is avilable - you would have to figure out which pin does it, though. 
That's about all I know about that for now.
-Steve


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## psi (Oct 18, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Stephen Webb)*

Go get-em!All you CIS guys need to watch this project.
Chuck B


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## arvcube (Aug 11, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Stephen Webb)*

the audi WUR does have two ports coming out from the side of it....one hooked up to manifold vacuum(after throttlebody) the other, i think, is left open to atmosphere...this one allows internal diaphragm movement...i think..
do you have the volvo 240 turbo air flow meter and fuel distributor too? i have this and have been wanting to try it...


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## Stephen Webb (Apr 12, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (arvcube)*

quote:[HR][/HR]the audi WUR does have two ports coming out from the side of it....one hooked up to manifold vacuum(after throttlebody) the other, i think, is left open to atmosphere...this one allows internal diaphragm movement...i think..
[HR][/HR]​This is the way I have the volvo one hooked up. Just one of the ports hooked up (I forget which one right now), and the other port is open to atmosphere.
quote:[HR][/HR]
do you have the volvo 240 turbo air flow met er and fuel distributor too? i have this and have been wanting to try it...[HR][/HR]​Yes, I have the fuel distributor/flow sensor as well. It bolts right in to the stock VW airbox, but I needed to use some of the fuel lines from the Volvo car to make things fit. In particular the cold start valve line is too short, so I used the Volvo one. Both control pressure lines were too short, and I used the Volvo ones. Two of the injector lines were too short, and I used a few of the "longer" VW ones. A fuel line on the fuel distributor didn't fit, so I bent the Volvo one a bit, and used it. The fuel return line is currently twisted a bit, and I think I will either reposition it a bit, or use the braided steel Volvo line. 
The frequency valve seems to be fine, and the VW control box doesn't seem to have a problem controlling things, though the duty cycle doesn't bounce *nearly* as much as it used to - it adjusts as necessary, but the bounce interval is +/- 1 degree or so. I think this has something to do with my new O2 sensor, as it responds much quicker.
Also, I had to mount the control pressure regulator sort of in a funny way (upside down, I think, and maybe with only one bolt) The two ports coming out of the side interfere with either the coolant lines or the oil cooler. Sort of sucks, but hasn't caused any problems. 
In order to get the air intake to the turbo, I used the Volvo boot, plus two 45 degree silicone elbows (2.25" diameter, I think -- whatever the turbo inlet is) Plus an exhasut adapter piece. (Hose clamps, too, of course). It took a while to get it all figured out, but it works well. I had to bend one of the brake lines slightly back (at the master cylinder). If you can run without a brake booster your life will be way easier, or if there is a different bracket/booster that pushes the booster back toward the firewall a bit, that would work too. 
Good luck.
-Steve


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## cnbrown (May 31, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Stephen Webb)*

this is great guys...


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## cnbrown (May 31, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (cnbrown)*

So you think itd make more sense to get all new lines and fuel distributor instead of shimming the stock one? I guess its all how band aid I wanna go...If i use the Audi regulator, are all of my fuel lines going to have to be changed out like you had to do w/ the volvo reg.? thanx again guys


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## Patrick (Apr 28, 2000)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (cnbrown)*

I have a volvo turbo fuel distributor for sale if anyone is looking to get one for a project.


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## cnbrown (May 31, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Supercharged VR6)*

what are you guys doing about timing?VR6...how much for the turbo distributor


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## cnbrown (May 31, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (cnbrown)*

bump


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## cnbrown (May 31, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (cnbrown)*

s/c'd vr6, you still have that volvo WUR??? New idea guy's...I am thinking of running 5psi on stock compression (10.5:1 right now), and I am wondering if I coulc get away with just shimming the fuel distributor...doable? I relaly wouldnt be going over that


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (cnbrown)*

Hi all,
The 240t injection is finally on the project Cabby to my satisfaction (after a couple of new factory lines). I had the opportunity to start it up tonight - cranked the key and lo and behold she fired right up with the new intake plumbing. Checked for fuel and vac leaks and things looked good (20" vac) so took her for a little spin around the block. Throttle response is better than with the 924 turbo injection, and it no longer suffers from the idle droop problem that I experienced with the Porsche injection. I currently have the OXS temp switch wired to trigger off an adjustable boost switch off the manifold, along with the enrichment furnished by the 924t control pressure regulator. I have the feeling that the motor is getting too much fuel during that transition to boost - tomorrow I'll remove all the boost enrichment vac lines and see how things go. It runs pretty smoothly with zero tuning. I have yet to adjust the lambda to the middle of the range. I really should install the Volvo 240t warm up regulator as well..
Looking forward to tuning this beast...it certainly doesn't sound like a standard Cabby that is for sure...
regards,
Peter Tong

[Modified by Peter Tong, 8:44 PM 5-10-2002]


[Modified by Peter Tong, 8:44 PM 5-10-2002]


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## stevelangford (Apr 22, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Peter Tong)*

I'm running about 12 psi, or a little more with cis and no problems at all, I have the audi 5kt wur and 2 additional injectors (4 stock, 5th stock config and 6th and 7th boost triggered) and it could'nt be better, never got a lean signal but when normal (like off throttle) did not have to modify anything in the fuel dist. or ignition dist, it is actually a little on the rich side because the temperature dropped a bit
Steve


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## psi (Oct 18, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (cnbrown)*

BUMP!!!We don't want this post to get buried under all the ignorant babbling jackass posts.


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (psi)*

I'll throw in some CIS fueling info I just recently discovered..........
I'm not boosted, but this is probably very relevant to those of you that are. I have the frequency valve grounded to the OXS temp switch at full throttle, which gets you a pretty nice fuel dump, TOO much for a normally aspirated motor. You can mitigate and adj this by putting an adj trim pot(Radio Shak, $1.79). Dial one way for leaner, the other way for richer. Cheap, convenient and trick. 
Basically, an adjustable full throttle enrichment. Here's where it gets interesting......
I was wondering "how rich does it actually get?", so I called a buddy that has an FJO wide band O2 sensor. We installed the wbO2, went for a test and low and behold, we saw 11.2 on wb display. That figure was at 7k rpms, 2l motor, heavily ported head, 280 cam, etc-the motor can breath, was spinning at the top of it's range, and STILL giving 11.2-11.5. Pretty rich. Being normally aspirated, I should be able to improve power somewhat by leaning it into the 12.7-13.5range at WOT. 
The point of this post is to *quantify* the additional fueling that is possible with about $3 of parts from Radio Shak. I would think that between the Audi/Volvo cpr and this trick, you could boost pretty nicely and not worry much about fuel. Not sure how that would translate to a boosted machine, but I thought someone might benefit or be interested........


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## BoostedBunny (Mar 8, 2002)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Andrew Stauffer)*

wow, that's amazing. i had no idea cis was that adaptable to turbocharging. could you possibly make a diagram of this enrichment wiring setup?


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## jassem99 (Feb 1, 2002)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (BoostedBunny)*

I'm really finding this thread interesting. It seems there is hope for the CIS yet. I'm afraid I'm left out since we didn't get the frequency valve thing on 16V KR engines over here.
I've already shimmed the fuel dist. with two washers when I went to a 2.0 from 1.8. Noticeable kick after 6krpm but nothing special. I got the washers from another fuel dist. Is there another way to get those shims without resorting to destroying old fuel dist?


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (psi)*

quote:[HR][/HR]BUMP!!!We don't want this post to get buried under all the ignorant babbling jackass posts.[HR][/HR]​No Kidding volks, lets show what CIS is truly capable of...
regards,
Peter Tong


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## maddassbus (Sep 30, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Andrew Stauffer)*

Hey Andrew I think that quite a few of us would be interested in seeing a diagram of how you wired it up... I've been thinking about wiring up the cold start valve for some extra enrichment thinking it would help out #3,4 cylinder since it's on the opposite side..Any thoughts on this???

[Modified by maddassbus, 6:19 PM 5-15-2002]


[Modified by maddassbus, 6:56 PM 5-15-2002]


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (maddassbus)*

......it used to be up on Mike Lanes site, but has since gone down and I can't seem to provide the link to it anymore. Somewhere at home, I have a hardcopy. If mike doesn't mind, I'll try and have it scanned in and distributed to folks that are interested. You'll be amazed at how simple it is, and it truly works. There's room for improvement and I'm working on addressing those issues now, but it's pretty basic, simple stuff.


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## AdidasCU (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Andrew Stauffer)*

Sounds like a good mod andrew.... I'm only gonna run 7 psi or so, so the Audi WUR should work fine for me....
One thing I noticed about this post, is that people seem to be confusing Audi WUR and Volvo Fuel dist.
The audi WUR replaces your stock one (just left of your oil filter....) and a Volvo Fuel dist. is actually the entire top of the airbox...from a volvo (or at least the silver part....) Could these be used together to obtain 15PSI safely?
James


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## psi (Oct 18, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (AdidasCU)*

The turbo volvo actually uses a WUR thats just like the audi unit(may be the same).


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (AdidasCU)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Sounds like a good mod andrew.... I'm only gonna run 7 psi or so, so the Audi WUR should work fine for me....
One thing I noticed about this post, is that people seem to be confusing Audi WUR and Volvo Fuel dist.
The audi WUR replaces your stock one (just left of your oil filter....) and a Volvo Fuel dist. is actually the entire top of the airbox...from a volvo (or at least the silver part....) Could these be used together to obtain 15PSI safely?
James[HR][/HR]​I have it on good swedish authority that the Volvo FD is good for just over 200hp (perhaps 210hp). The european non lambda B21ET FD flows another 15% more on top of the US one. Those are still available at a price of 5500 SEK. 240t FDs come in different styles - one of the 240t FDs i have (actually Andy Stauffers old one - the one actually on the car) has adjustments for adjusting the pressure diaphrams under each fuel line union. The other one I have as a spare doesn't have these. The Volvo control pressure regulator is different than both the Porsche 924t unit and the Audi 5k unit - has two vacuum/pressure inputs. I've got it running with the 924t warmup regulator and it seems to run just fine. Still I plan on putting the 240t CPR. Stephen Webb has very nicely contributed a bit of his research into how the 240t CPR was originally plumbed.
hope this helps,
Peter Tong


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## J. Daniel (Dec 3, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Peter Tong)*

Couple thoughts.
Seems like adding the Audi or Volvo WUR would get the basic fueling for running moderate boost.
Adding a Volvo or Audi T fuel distributor would let you run really high boost.
Adding Andrew's wiring would give you some adjustability on top of the WUR and FD mods.
So, it seems like there is a lot of potential here.
But, there really is no place for using the cold start injector for enrichment under boost. First, it's on-off so fueling is only going to be right at one load point. Second, distribution is going to suck.
Although I have a Haltech big turbo setup going into my Scirocco I'm getting pretty excited about putting an elcheapo small turbo setup on my nephew's Scirocco. That'll really piss off the other nephew that gave up on that car!


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (J. Daniel)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Seems like adding the Audi or Volvo WUR would get the basic fueling for running moderate boost.
Adding a Volvo or Audi T fuel distributor would let you run really high boost.[HR][/HR]​Sound about right http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
I'm gathering the parts necessary to run all the Volvo 240t stuff on my car w/ and w/o boost. I figure get it work without boost, learn to tune, then go from there. 
Peter, do you think the Audi 5kT WUR would be a comparable part to the 240t unit? The 5k parts are easier to find, imo. How different is the 924 part from both of these as well?
Also, I have the 240t fuel dist, what should I be looking for to check to see if the lines have individual pressure adjustments?


[Modified by need_a_VR6, 8:19 AM 5-16-2002]


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## arvcube (Aug 11, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Peter Tong)*

peter,
do you have pics of the two different distributors? i'd like to see what the adjustment screws (or whatever they are) look like...i remember seeing a post about the comparison between the motorsport and euro fuel injection and how the motorsport one has these adjustments as well...thanks..


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (need_a_VR6)*

The differences between the CPRs is control pressures when the CPRs are cold. I haven't hooked a mityvac up to my 924t CPR to see how the control pressure is affected by vac/boost so don't have that info. I think pretty much all of them end up being 49-55psi warm. CIS doesn't care about boost anyways - just air flow. And the 240t units are supposedly good for around 200.
The 924t CPR has the vac/boost port on its bottom (well on my car its upside down so on top), the 240t CPRs have two ports coming off the side. The Audi 5k CPR is another way yet (can't remember anymore). I don't know if the Audi 5k would be comparable to the 240t unit. What I do know is that the 924t CPR runs fine with the 240t FD - not sure if that is helpful...
Arv, as soon as I get a digital camera I'll post pre/post pics with the Cabby with the 924t FI vs the 240t FI...
As for the adjustment screws - some FDs have the fuel line unions on top of a part that juts out of hte top of the fuel distributor. The part that juts up has hex head screw adjusters on these "mounds". Other FDs have no jutting up part with these hex head adjusters but just a round port for the fuel union. 
hope this helps,
Peter T.


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## Chris_P (Apr 14, 2000)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Andrew Stauffer)*

Any tricks for cis-e???
Thanks,
Chris


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## psi (Oct 18, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Chris_P)*

You should be able to take off your differential pressure regulator and block it off.Then run a WUR instead.


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## Chris_P (Apr 14, 2000)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (psi)*

Interesting. Won't the computer go crazy with a disco'd dpr? Do you know anyone who has successfully done this?
Just picked up k26 and wastegate. Back to the yard saturday for me then to get the WUR.
Thanks,
Chris


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## Stephen Webb (Apr 12, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (psi)*

quote:[HR][/HR]You should be able to take off your differential pressure regulator and block it off.Then run a WUR instead.[HR][/HR]​I don't think that would work very well. I could be wrong, but I think that the DPR affects a different thing in the FD than the CPR affects. I think the DPR is more similar to the frequency valve, though does fill in for the CPR in some ways.
I wonder if it would be possible to add a CPR to a CIS-E distributor, leaving the rest intact.
-Steve


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Peter Tong)*

Peter, all I know about the Audi5kT WUR is that it has a vacuum/boost port on it, that's all I know because I haven't tracked one down yet! If the 924 unit worked for you, I might give it a try if I can't find the Volvo unit. 
(thinking out loud) One thought though, if CIS only cares about airflow, why even bother with a boost/vacuum sensitive WUR? If it ends up adding fuel only under boost, it would cause a rich (enrichment) condition that might not be the best for power. Now that I think of it, they might have added it for knock protection under boost as the fuel will cool the charge a bit. Hmm...


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## jasonyates (Nov 23, 2000)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (need_a_VR6)*

Adding fuel under boost is the whole point -- More air, more fuel. (Right?)


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## psi (Oct 18, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Stephen Webb)*

I'm too lazy to look right now,but the DPR is waht alters the control pressure on the electronic units.If this is true then the WUR should do the same thing right?
All you should need is a block off plate on the DPR and a WUR between the upper chamber of the meter head and the return line to the tank.Hell you might not even need to take the DPR off.


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## jassem99 (Feb 1, 2002)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (psi)*

"Hell you might not even need to take the DPR off."
Thats' what I was thinking. Just unplug the thing and the ECU goes into rich limp-home function (i.e. rich) and you get your WUR hooked up like psi said.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (jasonyates)*

Well, due to the nature of CIS, it doesn't really care about a boost level, just the airflow going past the sensor plate. Whether you have 300cfm of NA air or 300cfm of boosted air, CIS gives you the same level of fueling, which is the beauty. As long as your fuel distributor can flow enough fuel to maintain a slightly rich (12:1) mix at your max airflow, I can't see why you'd need extra fuel for just under boost. 
Now if this is all true and good, then why enrich more under boost IF it can really get to 12:1 with just the right FD and a WOT switch, unless something else is going on.


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## arvcube (Aug 11, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (need_a_VR6)*

this is great!
let's also not forget about the airflow sensors...remember, the reason why the euro injection gives more fuel is not only because there is no frequency valve, but the wall in the bowl area is steeper, making the sensor plate rise higher in the bowl for air to pass.. higher plate position = more fuel because the plunger in the FD goes in more... the 16v airflow sensors have a steeper wall compared to the 8v ones. also notice the rim thicknesses... 8v 80mm ones came in a couple of rim thicknesses, thick and thin...the thicker runs a little more rich than the thin...anybody remember those plastic drop in cone deals that used to be advertised in VW/Porsche magazines? same concept...i think volvo does this with some of their race cars running CIS...(drop in cones)
keep it goin!


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## stevelangford (Apr 22, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (J. Daniel)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Couple thoughts.
Seems like adding the Audi or Volvo WUR would get the basic fueling for running moderate boost.
Right this is exactly right for about 6-7 psi
--------------------------------
Adding a Volvo or Audi T fuel distributor would let you run really high boost.
Adding Andrew's wiring would give you some adjustability on top of the WUR and FD mods.
So, it seems like there is a lot of potential here.
agreed (even that I'm using the stock one with 12psi and played with it all the way to 15 psi, but ofcourse I have additional cold start valves)
-------------------------------------------------------
But, there really is no place for using the cold start injector for enrichment under boost. First, it's on-off so fueling is only going to be right at one load point. Second, distribution is going to suck.
distribuition sucks in the stock location, but I have two of them staged in 6psi and 10 psi sequence installed in the pipe going into the tb so atomization and distribuition is great to all cylinders, now as for the on-off deal, that's not entirely true if using the audi 5k turbo wur, remember, higher boost, higher fuel delivery
---------------------------------------------
Although I have a Haltech big turbo setup going into my Scirocco I'm getting pretty excited about putting an elcheapo small turbo setup on my nephew's Scirocco. That'll really piss off the other nephew that gave up on that car!
------------------------------------------
my cabriolet with cis runs flawless with this setup, always stoich when it has to be and a little on the rich side.
Steve
[HR][/HR]​


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## jasonyates (Nov 23, 2000)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (need_a_VR6)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Well, due to the nature of CIS, it doesn't really care about a boost level, just the airflow going past the sensor plate. Whether you have 300cfm of NA air or 300cfm of boosted air, CIS gives you the same level of fueling, which is the beauty. As long as your fuel distributor can flow enough fuel to maintain a slightly rich (12:1) mix at your max airflow, I can't see why you'd need extra fuel for just under boost. 
Now if this is all true and good, then why enrich more under boost IF it can really get to 12:1 with just the right FD and a WOT switch, unless something else is going on.[HR][/HR]​What you just described is the whole reason that you DO need a boost sensative method of fueling. Picture a scuba diving tank -- When it's full it's got a lot more air in it than when it's empty. This is the same principal of running boost. You're fitting a lot more air into the same space. Now yes the stock fueling may be enough for a few pounds of boost, after that you need more. This is the same reason Motronic cars use an FMU, it increases the pressure to the fuel rail as the boost increases..


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## Chris_P (Apr 14, 2000)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (psi)*

Come to think of it, I saw a simple diagram in a Bosch jetronic book showing a RRFPR hooked up after the FPR on the side of the CIS-E FD. It simply said you could use this method for boost applications.
So I should, in theory, be able to use the Audi 5kT WUR as the RRFPR, right?
Thanks,
Chris


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (jasonyates)*

Well, the reason to go to the Volvo 240 setup is to be able to provide fuel for more airflow over stock. CIS won't care if it's a V8 being fueled or a .5L boosted 1cyl if it's using the same airflow, it'll still provide the same fueling (without a boost sensitive WUR of course). 
Chris, I think it's the same principal that a rrFPR uses, but I'm not sure if the amount of fueling per psi of boost is the same or adjustable at all.


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## Stephen Webb (Apr 12, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (psi)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I'm too lazy to look right now,but the DPR is waht alters the control pressure on the electronic units.If this is true then the WUR should do the same thing right?
[HR][/HR]​I'm not sure on this. I thought that the DPR modified the differential pressure, which controls how much fuel flows for a given air flap height. I thought that the control pressure regulator affected the pressure on the top of the fuel plunger (connected to the air flap) and controlled how high the air flap went for a given airflow.
I'm too lazy to check too, though. This is just what I thought I had figured out at one point, could be wrong.
-Steve


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## psi (Oct 18, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Stephen Webb)*

I think your right on the dpr,but a warmup reg hooked into the upper chamber should lower the upper pressure and flow more fuel.


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (psi)*

i'm thinking about using the euro cis or volvo system on my car. i'll be running a t3/t4 turbo on a 1.8 16v motor. which one is better and how much boost can a run?


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (tyrone27)*

Go with the Volvo turbo CIS, it was meant for boost where as euro CIS wasn't. Again, just my humble opinion.


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## psi (Oct 18, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Andrew Stauffer)*

I agree http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Andrew Stauffer)*

Does anyone know specific differences between these warm up regulators:
Porsche 924 Turbo
Volvo 240 GLT
Audi 5k Turbo
All are boost sensitive, but do they share part numbers perhaps? What would make them different, maybe the pressure rise per psi of boost is different?
In my internet journeys yesterday, I also read that CIS boost enrichment WAS for anti-detonation NOT for enrichment. Neat eh? Just wish I could find the source of that one again. I think it was a 8911/924 site though.
Any of you all have Probst's CIS book? Worth a read?


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (need_a_VR6)*

Probsts book is very, very, verymuch worth a read. Ask me how I really feel http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Excellent resource. Bentley contains the same amount and degree of info in most cases, but it doesn't elaborate on the points the way that Probst does.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Andrew Stauffer)*

Cool, thanks Andrew!


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## psi (Oct 18, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (need_a_VR6)*

Good to see you guys succeding on the turbo CIS projects.Now I thinl I'm going to turn my attention to the Digifant 2







.


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## MadGT1 (Jul 22, 2000)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (psi)*

Anyone know where can i get the fuel distributor from the volvo turbo??


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## psi (Oct 18, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (MadGT1)*

Anybody have any new news?Also when are you guys going to run more boost?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (psi)*

Nothing really new yet, just working on installing my SDS mixture meter so I can take some better readings. I'll be doing some data collection of air fuel rates (and hopefully EGT if I can get the instrumentation!) before and after the Volvo 240 dist/WUR install. I still need a few fuel lines, and I have to email Peter Tong about which ones I need! Meter will be fully installed this weekend, and the EGT in the next few weeks. My project is taking time, well, because I want it to be CHEAP!








Best place to find the Volvo fuel dist is at the junkyard, though 240GLT's are rare, they're out there!


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (need_a_VR6)*

Out of curiousity, I have a Volvo enthusiast telling me that the Volvo turbo fuel dist and the 6cyl volvo CIS fuel dist are the same deal, save for the two blocked ports on the turbo unit. Can anyone confirm or deny this? I'd love it to be true, it would make sourcing the appropriate fuel dist alot easier, but then again, it sounds too good to be true....


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Andrew Stauffer)*

Andrew, I have also "heard" the same thing, but haven't confirmed it. It definitely looks like a 6cyl unit with just the two ports not being drilled out and tapped for lines. Now when those lines aren't drilled (or blocked) does fuel go the same place? 
If the sensor plate, cone, yadda, cis, yadda are all the same, then blocking two ports on a 6cyl one "should" do the same thing.
Who wants to find a V8 Merc distributor and do the same thing to see if it'll just be a 4cyl one or flow too much fuel? 
Nice idea though!


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## Andrew Stauffer (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (need_a_VR6)*

It would depend on whether the ports that the fuel lines thread into are connected internally. If two of the six are blocked but they are all connected, I'd think you'd get more fuel for a given airflow/plate lift. If they aren't connected internally, I'd imagine that you just get more fuel being returned to the tank. 
Isn't VWVortex a sister site to Swedespeed? time to do a little legwork....... 
Also, haven't heard this one mentioned yet, but the Audi 5k turbo fuel dist could probably be made to work. Block on line, or use it as a 5th injector, squirting into the tb. Ghetto for sure, but I'm not opposed to that *IF* it works reliably.......


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## Autocratic_1st_Gen (May 29, 2002)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Andrew Stauffer)*

Okay, I am new to this. Could somebody figure out some cliff notes? Too many acronymes.
Here is a diagram I made up of the entire CIS system to my knowledge:








WOuld somebody explain which VW, Audi, and Volvo parts are the ones in the pic, and which are most desirable. I tried but I am too new to the system and ept getting confused.
-Thanks!


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## Stephen Webb (Apr 12, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Andrew Stauffer)*

I have a volvo turbo unit in my car. I can tell you that it is a 6 cylinder casting with two ports blocked off. Similar to the 5 cylinder unit being a 6 cylinder casting with one port blocked off. The question is (as others have mentioned) can I block off two ports of a 6 cylinder unit with some bolts, and have the same thing?
I don't know the answer, but I'm inclined to say no, being cautious if nothing else. 
I'm not sure how much detail the Bentley manual goes into, but I will take a look at it.
(I am now the proud owner of a Volvo 240, and hence the proud owner of a Volvo 240 Bentley manual [which happens to cover the turbo models too])
Check out http://www.brickboard.com 
You might be able to find a volvo 240 turbo fuel distributor more easily than you think. I know you can find th "cobra" hose there.
-Steve


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## psi (Oct 18, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Stephen Webb)*

Here is my take on the CIS fuel dist.How many ports the meter has is more of an indication of how many HP the meter will flow(6 port flows enough fuel for 6cyl NA).The cone in the meter is what decides how much fuel will flow per air flow(along with the pressure issues).
CIS/CISjetronic/CIS KE jetronic/CIS motronic all use the same basic fuel pressures.Thats why a DPR will work on any CIS fuel dist.All you need to do is hook it up in the proper place(I'll look more into this for you guys).
So can we use a 8 port fuel dist to fuel our motor?
Yes we can.
The fuel pressures will be correct up to a point of how much the injector will flow(240 injectors will flow over 200whp worth,and I believe they are the same as VW ones).There are other injectors avail,but it seems it would be more likely to find a huge gold nugget in your back yard(CIS Gold injectors).Some of the Volvo sites still claim they exist







.
If someone has a 240 turbo fuel dist set up and can run this car on a dyno that has a wideband af meter,I will give them one of the WUR I have for free.All I ask is that you raise the boost until it starts to lean out.


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (psi)*

The fuel pressures will be correct up to a point of how much the injector will flow(240 injectors will flow over 200whp worth,and I believe they are the same as VW ones).There are other injectors avail,but it seems it would be more likely to find a huge gold nugget in your back yard(CIS Gold injectors).Some of the Volvo sites still claim they exist







.
If someone has a 240 turbo fuel dist set up and can run this car on a dyno that has a wideband af meter,I will give them one of the WUR I have for free.All I ask is that you raise the boost until it starts to lean out.[/QUOTE]
Psi,
Just want to confirm that the Volvo 240t used 015 injectors - same as what is on the Rabbits (according to my Bosch book).
regards,
Peter Tong



[Modified by Peter Tong, 8:40 PM 5-29-2002]


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## Autocratic_1st_Gen (May 29, 2002)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Peter Tong)*

here, i made my own cliff notes:
http://www.geocities.com/krustindumm/CIS.htm
Share and Enjoy







(douglas adams humor-i feel like a nerd)
That is also pretty much my "shopping list"
-Dustin


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## psi (Oct 18, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Peter Tong)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
Psi,
Just want to confirm that the Volvo 240t used 015 injectors - same as what is on the Rabbits (according to my Bosch book).
Funk if I know???
[Modified by Peter Tong, 8:40 PM 5-29-2002][HR][/HR]​


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## jasonyates (Nov 23, 2000)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (psi)*

Has anyone tried the K-Star unit? Usually stand-alone is the best, but it requires a large investment as far as switching a bunch of sensors and your injectors and whatnot, not to mention the unit itself. The K-Star thing seems to plug in, work with the stock systems, and is fully programmable for fueling and ignition. Seems to run about $500 bucks (300 pounds UK). Sounds like a good compromise and not very expensive either.. I'll probably try this out in the near future I'm just curious if anyone else is running it..


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (jasonyates)*

Well, after looking at the Kstar stuff, I'll be passing on it. $500 is halfway to full SDS! Sure it would be nice to keep the CIS stuff and have it be programmable, but that's not my intention with CIS. I'll just use it to the limit then move on. No use in improving things unless you're already maxing out what you have!
Anyone using anything other than stock dist/coil for timing control? I was thinking about moving up to an Accel unit and adding boost retard. Ideas? Price is high, but I could keep the coil when I outgrow CIS.


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## Bonanza Gti (Jan 3, 2002)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Peter Tong)*

quote:[HR][/HR]The fuel pressures will be correct up to a point of how much the injector will flow(240 injectors will flow over 200whp worth,and I believe they are the same as VW ones).There are other injectors avail,but it seems it would be more likely to find a huge gold nugget in your back yard(CIS Gold injectors).Some of the Volvo sites still claim they exist







.
[HR][/HR]​I have gold injectors, in color with about 2miles on them before I took them offhttp://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Andrew Stauffer)*

Here are some better pics of the Volvo 240t install in my Autorotor/Lysholm Cabby...hope you CIS fans like em
































It runs pretty well now that I've fixed a few vacuum leaks. I've got to go over all the electrical connections back of the fuse box, but other than that its just about ready to start tuning...this weekend I'll pull the 924t CPR and replace it with the proper Volvo 240 unit...
regards,
Peter Tong



[Modified by Peter Tong, 6:57 PM 5-31-2002]


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## VW_Adrian (Oct 27, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Peter Tong)*

what kind of rad is that ???


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (VW_Adrian)*

quote:[HR][/HR]what kind of rad is that ???







[HR][/HR]​Sorry for the OT - the rad that is visible is the upper rad - its a custom Howe Racing dual core aluminum rad (3" thick,each core has 1.25" rectangular coolant passages for more surface area than the stock VW rads). Below that is another custom Howe rad (dual pass and lots wider) that runs underneath both the IC and top rad. The high flow SPAL fan sucks through both top and bottom rads, and a smaller SPAL fan sucks through the bottom rad only... both fans are triggered with the only GM part I have on the car - stock Chevy temperature ground switch).
regards,
Peter T.


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## tyrone27 (Sep 7, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Peter Tong)*

I have an idea. why can't u use the stock CIS system and just change the injectors to the volvo ones then use a pacton or vortech fuel rising rate pressure regulator. a friend of mine told me about that and he ran a 13.1 with forced induction on street tires.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Peter Tong)*

Peter, thanks for the pics! That second freq valve got me worried before I noticed what it was and was for







Good luck with the tuning and keep us updated.
In other news, I got my SDS mixture meter hooked up on Saturday with no problems at all. Mixture is as was expected on a stock motor/management setup. Just using it to troubleshoot a problem or two I thought might be caused my a fuel pump going bad. 
Mixtures are as follows:
Cruising 16-14:1 varying
Off throttle decel: 17:1 or off gauge
WOT before 4k: 13:1
WOT after 4k: 12.5:1
Mix shows no indications of lean at any conditions of WOT. We'll see how that changes (and hopefully doesn't) after the install of the 240t fuel dizzy


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## Autocratic_1st_Gen (May 29, 2002)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (need_a_VR6)*

Installed the 240T dizzy yet?
-Dustin


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Autocratic_1st_Gen)*

Not yet, steering rack took a pooh and I have to fix that first







That and Peter said I need two #1 injector lines, so I need one more still. Soon, soon


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## cnbrown (May 31, 2001)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (need_a_VR6)*

Lets bring this post back to life!
Does anyone know have some EGT numbers that could be matched up to wideband 02 readings?
For example:1600f = 12.5:1
maybe a cheaper solution to answering some of these rich/lean issues without the cost of wideband 02 tests?
Just some random questions to resurface this post


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## vwmikelvw (Oct 28, 2000)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (Andrew Stauffer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Andrew Stauffer* »_......it used to be up on Mike Lanes site, but has since gone down and I can't seem to provide the link to it anymore. Somewhere at home, I have a hardcopy. If mike doesn't mind, I'll try and have it scanned in and distributed to folks that are interested. You'll be amazed at how simple it is, and it truly works. There's room for improvement and I'm working on addressing those issues now, but it's pretty basic, simple stuff. 

For anyone that might be interested, I'm thinking about making some of the 16v power modules. They would be adjustable, and cheap in comparison to the TT and Autotech ones. I'm currently working on a circuit to directly influence fueling on cis-e cars via the differential pressure regulator with reference from a map sensor. I finally converted to cis-e on my Rabbit GTI (callaway stage 2) and am impressed by the much improved driveability and idle characteristics. It seems to start going lean right after the wastegate opens (11psi right now). I haven't attempted any enrichment just yet. My goal is to avoid using the fueler if possible because the more I depend on it, the less power I'm likely to make. IM me if you're interested in the modules. Thanks.


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: FUELING CIS?! (vwmikelvw)*

Mike,
Have you had a chance to flow test your CIS-E setup? I'm curious how well CIS-E in stock form does...
I will be reflow testing my Volvo 240t setup this coming week with all new Porsche injectors...will post results...I've got the VSAM plumbed as a FV bypass and plan on doing one flow test with the stock FV set at 80% as well as the VSAM set at 90%...this should reduce lower chamber pressure more than is possible using the stock setup - hoping for more fuel...


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