# All alone...



## 79MK1Scirocco (Aug 23, 2011)

So where do people go to have thier modified VW's tuned or even put on a sniffer? 

I have A 79 Scirocco with a turbo making abiut 5psi and stroked 1.8l, 8v motor.
CIS injection with a audi 5000 WUR and TB. 

I have tried a couple of vw / audi shops and the latest said "I won't touch it", I think the door hit my ass on the way out!
They did say to get a wide band and tune it with that. I would rather have it done by someone who has done it before.
Nobody wants to work on it because they don't remember or because it is modified. 

I have "tuned" it by checking the spark plugs and checking all of the system pressures, but I really don't think that is good enough. All of the books say to hook it up to a sun machine but who has that kind of cash!

How does everyone else tune thier old school VWs?

Btw I am in Denver.


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## Butcher (Jan 31, 2001)

Most work on their own cars/engines. 

It's hard to find someone that is willing to work on a CIS car. I have a shop and I interview every potential client that has an older car for me to work on. Most do not have the money for me to work on it. The last thing I want is to invest a bunch of my time and the client says "That's too expensive". This applies to older D Jetronic or mechanical fuel injection system.

So that is why they say NO! Too many bad past experiences. The other issue is that there is no 'book' to check the specs. So what happens you are burning up a lot of hours just to check timing, fuel pressures, etc. Then once you get it running right, you have to play with the fuel pressures to tune it from there. What happens if something goes wrong and the engine goes bad? Who do you think you'll blame? It's just not financially worth it. Believe it or not, a shop is in business to make money. You got to make enough to keep the wheels turning and older cars that have been modified usually takes away from the good stuff.

If you want an older car, nobody will give a crap more than you about it. You need to learn how the system works, learn how to weld [so you can put a wide band sensor in the exhaust], and start playing with the system until you get the idea how it works. If you are not willing to dive in deep, then you need to have deep pockets. The internet is a great tool to look for some shop that can. It may be out of state since Denver I believe has some tough emissions laws.


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## 79MK1Scirocco (Aug 23, 2011)

Hey butcher,
I have a book that tells me exactly where all of my system pressures need to be and so forth. There are really only a few adjustments to be made on CIS fuel injection from what they say. I was actually able to sort out and tune a bad WUR from the book and internet like you said.
The books all say to connect to a SUN machine to properly tune. 
I have looked into the wide band before but was not not totally sold on it. 
It is starting to look like my only option though. 

It is too bad nobody wants to do that work. It makes me wonder what the future holds for today's more sophisticated cars.My ford focus requires 6 specialty tools to replace the clutch on top of "teaching"the computer to drive again. From what I understand there are different methods for doing that too. 
CIS is very basic compared to many things in cars being pumped out now


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## Butcher (Jan 31, 2001)

I'm old enough to know what a Sun machine is and I have used one for many years [many would not use it]. I used it so much, it was parked next to my stall all the time. There are many hand held devices that can do the same or even more than a Sun could ever do.

The Sun machine is not the tool you need to tune your car. Why?
1] It's too big to fit in your car on the test drive.
2] It will only show you your ignition timing and the ignition pattern.
3] It will not be able to analyze your exhaust emissions. Therefore you will not know if it's too lean/rich.

Now, if you have a dyno, then a Sun may help with the ignition pattern. 

Mostly what a wide band will do is give you real time knowledge about the fuel mixture. You probably do not need to know that information at idle and normal loads but when you are under boost, you need to know if you are not too lean [or too rich where you are loosing power]. You are assuming that you have all the adjustments set properly to specs. There are no specs for your engine. Period. You are assuming that everything is set right. How do you know that? The answer is you do not. You need to accept that as fact because it's true.

You do have an Audi warm up regulator that was used on their 5 cylinder turbo engine. Your's is a 4 cylinder. You have a fuel distributor that was never designed to be used with your warm up regulator. You also have a fuel distributor that is not designed for your turbo set up. Nothing you have were designed to work together. You seem to have an assumption that your system is set perfectly and that is the flaw in your thinking process. Nothing you have was ever designed to be mated together.

Does that mean it will not work? No, but that does not mean you can tweak the fuel pressures to get the optimum set up. Maybe you are running a bit too rich cold, maybe too lean hot. What happens if you raise the system pressure? Will it be too rich? What happens if you want to add more boost, can your system provide the fuel needed? How do you know? 

So, I'm not a salesman for wide band sensors, but if you do not understand what the benefits it can give you, then you need to study it more. You do not need it, but if I was going to tune a vehicle, I certainly would want to have one.


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## RevolutionMotorsportsCt (Nov 17, 2011)

The reason most shops wont touch a cis car, let alone turbo, is because most of them don't know how to work on them or how they operate. All you need is the Bentley, that will help you daig 95% of the probs with cis. 

Anyways, to tune any cis or cis turbo fuel system only, you need a wide band o2 and a boost gauge. A dyno makes it way easier because the data is recorded. Tools needed are a fuel psi tester to check the system pressure, a 3 or 4mm allen key to adjust to idle co, this is done at the air box lift plate for the fuel distributor (its the one adjustment all shops try to play with to get the car to pass emissions, and they make probs worse usually), a punch and hammer. 

Check the fuel psi is to factory specs first, and see what o2 readings are. If they are off, you can raise the main system psi by shimming the system regulator. FOLLOW the Bentley instructions. After that you can bump the plug on the wur to raise/tune the pressure. I usually drill and tap the wur plug so I don't have to take it off if I go too far. You use a bolt and nut to pull the plug back out, or you unbolt the wur from the block and there's a hole in the back to tap the plug back out. That's is all you have to do to tune the fuel part of the cis with a wur (NOT cis-e or motronic, they are different to tune).

You have the right parts for cis turbo, audi 5000 wur is the big thing, just make sure the boost port is connect to boost only and you have it on the correct port.

Next is timing, there is no way to tune the factory cis distributor to pull timing under boost unless you use an old style vac advance distributor. Otherwise you need an msd timing retard unit to pull timing properly under boost Or cb performance make a really nice modern unit.

This should be all you need to tune the system, you will run out of fuel depending what size turbo you have at around 10 - 15 psi. This is because the factory injectors only flow so much. you can loop more cold start valves in off a hobbs switch or get crazy with adding a Mercedes v8 distributor, but that's a whole other level of fab which in the end isn't worth the time due to much cheaper ways to fuel for boost.

Hope this helps, if you have any questions email me at, 

[email protected] or ig @ revolutionmotorsportsct

Im not on the forums to much, so thats the best way to contact.

Ive made and tuned many of these setups, just know they have there limits 

you are not alone

Bill


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