# A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems



## stylngle2003 (Oct 2, 2004)

Hey Gang,
Car in question is a 1993 Cabbie with power windows...
the setup: car had a top leak (fixed by Steve Langford's rails, btw) and filled up to the sills with water during 3 days of rain while the owner was out of town. Since then (the carpets are now dry), the windows will not work.
I pulled out the bentley for it, first checked the 20A fuse wedged way the heck up on top of the relays, it was fine...then I checked at the power window section, and didn't find much except that there is a Power Window Control Unit or something located behind the glovebox. 
So i yanked the Right Front window switch (btw, only the front windows are power), and used my multimeter to check the harness for voltage, using the wiring diagram in the back of the Bentley. also, checked continuity between some of the wires, but thing is...I'm not too well versed in the decrytion of wiring diagrams, so I'm not really sure which wires i should be checking. I am aware that brown is _usually_ ground with VWs, so that was usually the wire that got the black wire from my voltmeter. 
There are also a green/white, blue/gray, red/gray, and gray/black wires at the switch connector, so using brown as ground, and later green/white, i tried to fake the windows into working using a paperclip...to no avail. so i guess that means that the switch isn't the problem. 
now, for me, since both window's stopped working at the same time, i think it must be a problem that is shared by both windows, which leads me to believe it is the (40) ground located under the rear seat, right (according to bentley) or the power window control unit.
can anyone give me any tips about where the ground is (took out the rear seat, didn't see anything taht looked like a ground), and how to test to verify that the control unit is the problem? also, anyone ever had this problem before? what we are experiencing may not be related to the mini-flood, but it just seemed eerily related to it since the windows didn't work after the rain...

Cliffs Notes:
'93 Cab
after rainstorm and mini-flood, windows don't work
checked fuse....ok
checked voltage and continuity at switch, not sure which wires i should check, but had resistance and voltage at several connections
jumped wires at the switch connector, no luck
both windows do not work, not even noise from the motors, no clicks, no nothin, so i think the problem must be something that is mutual with both windows...
anyone had this problem before or can anyone give me tips on which wires to jump/test/check?
thanks
oh, and a pic for views:











_Modified by stylngle2003 at 11:50 AM 8-8-2005_


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

If both motors are not working then it is probably a common problem that you are discribing. 
I would jumper the motors to 12 volts, as that is the way to tell if the motors are causing your condition or not.
The brown /red tracer is the ground of the motor, the black with red is the 12v...The control unit switches the + and - to get the motors to go up, or down. 
I would also try moving the ground closer, as that is a long way to find a good ground, and subject to breakage. I would first try getting a good ground to pin T8b/1 
If you get 12v at 8b/7 and ground at 8b/1 then It would be the controller that is causing your grief, I suspect that your ground has been disconnected tho. The motors are pretty resilient. 
And since you say your fuse is good, then it isn't getting power. Have you verified the fuse with either an ohm meter or 12v continuity on both sides with the key switch on? I don't know how many times I have been kicked for not checking both sides of a fuse. 



_Modified by briano1234 at 1:33 PM 8-7-2005_


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## stylngle2003 (Oct 2, 2004)

*Re: (briano1234)*

Briano,
I have not checked both sides of the fuse yet, as it is super tight up in there, but i will try with some very thin test probes attached to gator clips on my multimeter. 
I know this sounds stupid, but how would I jumper the motors to 12V? do you mean like disconnect thier connectors and ground the brown/red, and connect the black/red right to the battery positive?
Also, since it's not my car (long story...but it's my best friend's girlfriend's), I don't have the bentley or the car infront of me to look at right now, but where is T8b/1? i remember that from the wiring diagram, but just don't remember where it is. I agree tho that it is a very long ground to go from under the back seat to the window motors or control unit.
i will try and check those things and check back, thanks for your support


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## ensone (May 18, 2004)

*Re: (stylngle2003)*

welcome to my world.. i had no flood... but i do have 2 wires going from my battery to the cabin
with the plug type connectors.. 2 wires coming from the motor +- and 2 from the batter +- mark them up


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: (stylngle2003)*

That would be the connector on the power window controller, under the knee pad passengers side.
I would just run two wires from the Battery straight to the motor.


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## stylngle2003 (Oct 2, 2004)

so after putting 12V at the motor, what will happen? will it operate via the switch, or will it go up/down by itself, based on the amount of time it is connected to the battery? it seems to me like this would bypass the control unit, but i am not sure
also, if i remember right, the ground that goes to (40) is a brown wire from the control unit (i think). would it be acceptable to follow this wire back to the ground location, unfasten it, cut it shorter and then ground it at 8b/1? i have done minor electrical work on cars before, mostly installing stereos, but haven't really ever had the privelege of working with a wiring diagram or anyone as knowledgeable as you guys are. thank you again for your help


_Modified by stylngle2003 at 6:24 PM 8-7-2005_


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: (stylngle2003)*

Well if the window is up, whenyou jumper that motor nothing will happen, if you reverse them then the window will go down.
You are bypassing the switch.
I would find the ground lead of the controller, and attach it to the firewall or other good ground like one of the nuts on the knee bar with a circular amp connector. 
I looked at the wiring earlier for the motors, and it is straight forward, through the controller box. The fuse is the first commom failure point. The ground is the second, and if the motors still don't work them I would suspect that the controller toasted itself.


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## stylngle2003 (Oct 2, 2004)

great! that is what i wanted to hear
i will test these tomorrow and get back to the thread.
thanks Briano and Ensone


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## qwikxr (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: (stylngle2003)*

yes! another brick fan! yay!


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## stylngle2003 (Oct 2, 2004)

*Re: (qwikxr)*

what kind of bricks do you like? that's awesome to see another brickster!


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## DropTopVeeDub (May 5, 2003)

*Re: (qwikxr)*

To Tell ya a wierd thing that happened to me with my 92.
I was getting very poor mpg (like 12mpg) and i replaced the blue cts and the O2 sensor (bosch factory plug type) and for a while it ran great ... well to make a long story short my window controller box thing was making a horrible clicking sound that wouldn't stop even after you turned the car off. It wound up being a bad ground on the O2 sensor i put in. its connected to the water jacket on the side of the head.. don't know if it might have any relevance or not. Just sharing an experience and adding somthing else you might want to check.
HTH


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: (DropTopVeeDub)*

wow a ground connected to the water jacket? I'd of never thunked to do that. My o2 is grounded to the valve cover.


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## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (stylngle2003)*

William,
Boy, thanks a LOT for this thread, VW has certainly over complicated a simple electrical function.
My best guess given your clues, is water in that very expensive window controller. I'd pull it out, open it, clean the circuit board with brake spray, dry it with compressed air. There are no doubt relays inside, they'll need their contacts cleaned too.
T8a, T8b and T8c are all at the ECU, T8a and T8c have the inputs, T8b, the outputs.
The switches don't do anything at all like you'd expect, they are logic switches only, they carry no current to the windows at all. The black/blue and brown wires have nothing at all to do with window operation, they are strictly for the switch illumination.
The common on the left switch is green, green/white on the right. 
Gray/black and gray/red are the up/down signal wires on both sides, both sides connect to each other. Sorry, I don't know, Bentley doesn't say which color is up, which is down. Again, this section is only logic, no current.
The control unit reads up or down on the gray/black or gray red wire, it reads left or right on the green (left) or green/white (right). 
The output side is worse. Brown/red is common to both motors, only one motor can operate at a time. This common brown/red also makes troubleshooting a nuisance. 
The left motor has a black/red from the ECU, the right a black/yellow. Seems the ECU has to open one of these when it operates the other because of the common mentioned paragraph up.
To isolate and test the motors, you'll have to remove the door panels, unplug T2a in the left door, T2b in the right, then you can feed power and ground directly to each motor.
Circled 40 looks to be right next to the ECU.
Looking at my car and the pic, you'll see that the schematic lies. There are two wires in T2c, the diagram shows one. With T2c disconnected, the left window still works, with T2a open, neither window works.
Don't _even_ ask me about amplified speakers, ok?
Ron


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## DropTopVeeDub (May 5, 2003)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (tolusina)*

^^^^
Wow..


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## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (stylngle2003)*

Oh yeah, the ECU needs a key on signal too, it comes in on the black/blue wire to T8b/6.


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## stylngle2003 (Oct 2, 2004)

Ron....wow
I mean, WOW!
That is quite possibly one of the best forum responses I have ever gotten, and I thank you for it. 
One part confused me, but I think that I have figured it out....when you mention ECU, you mean the window control unit, yes? If so, then everything else seems to make sense to me. I will have the car into the "shop" (aka the mosquito resort that is my driveway) at 10am this morning, and will proceed to check everything listed above.
Also, will common "non-chlorinated brake parts cleaner" be fine for the circuit board? if so, good, since I still have some downstairs








And luckily for the both of us, this cabbie doesn't have the amped speakers







Thanks again
oh and based on my newfound knowledge of the way this works, assuming that the control unit isn't filled with water, i guess the only other exterior detail shared by both motors is their dumb common ground, which could very well be corroded or something inside the case also. 
I will post my findings tomorrow...Thanks again!
Billy


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

I wouldn't use brake cleaner to remove moisture, I would use 100 proof alcohol, you can buy it at most hardware stores or the 90 proof stuff, brake cleaner has been known to eat certain plastics.


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## qwikxr (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: (stylngle2003)*


_Quote, originally posted by *stylngle2003* »_Ron....wow
I mean, WOW!
That is quite possibly one of the best forum responses I have ever gotten, and I thank you for it. 

_[get used to it!







]_

_Quote »_One part confused me, but I think that I have figured it out....when you mention ECU, you mean the window control unit, yes? If so, then everything else seems to make sense to me. 

Yep. I'd bet.


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## qwikxr (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: (stylngle2003)*

I'll IM you so as not to clutter the thread


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## stylngle2003 (Oct 2, 2004)

100proof alcohol = isopropyl? aka rubbing alcohol?


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## stylngle2003 (Oct 2, 2004)

ok yea, this control unit looks pretty much sealed, and i jiggled it and didn't hear any water sloshing around


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## stylngle2003 (Oct 2, 2004)

ok new developments....
unplugged the harnesses at the back of the CU, cleaned up the contacts a bit, and plugged everrything back in while the CU hangs there. tried both switches...the left side switch causes the relay inside the CU to click ("click click click click" if i move the switch 4 times), but the right side switch does not. i will pull the right switch out and check its contacts, then retry. so it would seem that at least half the switches are sending their signals to the CU.


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## stylngle2003 (Oct 2, 2004)

even more developments...
removed both door panels and unplugged the window motor harness connectors.
jumped straight to the battery, both motors work just fine, up and down. 
going to test the fuse for 12V and 8b/1 and 8b/7 for 12V and ground


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## qwikxr (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: (stylngle2003)*

cool deal.. keep us posted what you find..


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## stylngle2003 (Oct 2, 2004)

ok, so I probed the brown wire and gray/red wire at the ECU, by sticking a small wiring nail down into the connector with the key on and the ecu plugged in. as above, finding 12V would apparently mean that the ECU was dead, but that was not the case. with my meter on the 10V scale, it read just under 8V.
then moved to the fuse...first off, this is a major bitch unless you have very small hands...plus the door chime relay is oh so annoying. anyway, i removed it temporarily (the #4 relay) and also removed the #13 relay, to make accessing the fuse location easier. using the nails again, i stuck them in the contacts on the fuse panel, then attached gator clips to them and also to the test leads on the meter. now, i saw some flickering of the needle (analog meter), but even on the 5V scale, it would never really measure much more than 1V.....
so i guess that could be the epicenter of the problem right there (thanks, Briano), but i will try again in a few mins to try and get a better connection. oh, and probing the fuse was done with the key in the on posiition (#2 i think). my readings would not have been screwed up bc i removed the #s 4 and 13 relays, would they? any tips would be greatly appreciated
oh, and i think that it is very weird that only the driver's side window switch causes the ECU to click its relays...anyone with me?


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## qwikxr (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: (stylngle2003)*

I can see this thread eventually making it into the FAQs Hall of Fame








Unfortunately, I do not have my Bentley here at work, so I cannot aid much in assistance. 
But, if you take the phillips screw out of the bottom of the fuse panel, you can release the two white clips that retain the fuse panel in it's cradle, and drop it down to a more desirable work level..
This will also allow easier access to the rear of the fuse panel, and allow you to get to the plugs in the back of it, namely "D"..
Since D15 (Blk) and D23 (Blk) are ignition sources, you can verify their voltages at the plug in the back of the panel.
Also, since fuse S17 is fed via the 30 circuit, it should be hot at all times.. If you arent seeing 12vdc on the input side of S17, there's obviously an issue there that needs rectified..
More later...


_Modified by qwikxr at 2:31 PM 8-8-2005_


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## stylngle2003 (Oct 2, 2004)

*Re: (qwikxr)*

ok dude, you are fncking awesome! that makes it so much easier to test this crap. I will try that to see if i can get a better connection at the panel, then report back


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## detvw (Jun 5, 2001)

*Re: (stylngle2003)*

Great to see this topic brought forward. Now to get off topic, does anyone have a Power window control unit for sale? Mine just quit on me. One side still works.


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## qwikxr (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: (detvw)*

detvw - 
dead link in your sig.. btw - cabby lookin fly! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## stylngle2003 (Oct 2, 2004)

Ok, new developments...
pulled down the fuse panel...makes it soooo much easier! anyway, put in some slightly larger, copper nails in the fuse receptacle, but not before installing a new fuse (just in case)...no difference. anyway, with the key off, we have a steady 12V with the positive attached to the left side of the fuse slot, and common on the right. when we turned the keyswitch, voltage dropped down and stayed there! 
so with the meter connected across the fuse slot, and the key switched on, voltage was like 1-2V i think, closer to 1.3V...when operating the drivers side switch (the switch that trips the relay in the PWCU) voltage goes back up to 9V or so. passenger side switch gets nothing....at all. 
so we switched the switches (hehe) and found the same deal, driver's side location still makes ~9V while passenger side is deader than the copper nails in the fuse slot. 
question for Tolusina (Ron):
you mentioned T2c and T2a...we are experiencing what seems to be the left window working, at least more so than the right window, but on the wiring diagram, i didn't see a T2c anywhere...is that just one of the connectors on the PWCU?

cliffs notes:
we have 12V with key off and in position 1, about 1.3 with the key on at the fuse position for the power windows (S17) 
using the left side window switch, we are able to register ~9V whether pressing it up or down, right side switch does nothing....switching switches did not fix the problem, either, nor did it move it to the other side. 
what do people think the problem is?
oh, and how do you get the big white connector out, ours seemed stuck, and i didn't want to break it. 
i am going out right now to unbolt the large brown wire that is grounded right next to the PWCU, and will try cleaning it up and or moving it to a more suitable location
thanks to all so far!


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: (stylngle2003)*

nooooooo
on the fuse panel, you should have to ground (frame) 12v on either side of the fuse.
if you had the positive on the left and the negative on the right with the key on and you read 12v, then you have a bad fuse.........
you should have +12v on the left and the right side of the fuse to frame ground with the key on. 
Make sure of the voltage at the fuse (both sides) before going on.....
Other wise you either have a bad fuse or bad 12v to the ECU for the windows....

If you don't have 12v, then you may have insufficient differential to pick the logic circuits and not enough amperage to pull the motor.....

I suppose you could just gut the damn thing and buy 2 30 amp 12 relays and rewire the switched to pick the relayss, then they inturn drive the motor. ......
be sure the voltage is correct getting to the ecu....I would suspect that that me be the biggest part of your problem. 



_Modified by briano1234 at 4:19 PM 8-8-2005_


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## qwikxr (Feb 9, 2003)

*Re: (stylngle2003)*


_Quote, originally posted by *stylngle2003* »_Ok, new developments...
pulled down the fuse panel...makes it soooo much easier! anyway, put in some slightly larger, copper nails in the fuse receptacle, but not before installing a new fuse (just in case)...no difference. anyway, with the key off, we have a steady 12V with the positive attached to the left side of the fuse slot, and common on the right. when we turned the keyswitch, voltage dropped down and stayed there! 

Like he said.. this is wrong.. with the fuse pulled from its slot, you will only see 12vdc on the feed side, with possibly a ground signal on the other side, as it will feed back through the circuitry until it sees 12vdc *across* the fuse.. Ground the black lead of the meter to a known ground point.. Then use the red lead to test for voltage at the various points, leaving the black lead on ground. With a fuse in it's slot, you should see 12vdc across both sides of the fuse. If not (if you only see it on one side of the fuse) then replace the fuse, retest..
If you *do* see 12vdc across the fuse, but not 12vdc at the WCU (window control unit), then look for an open along the WCU signal wire.
Lets get 12vdc constant and switched to the WCU first, then go from there.









All else fails, I only live an hour or so from you, so you could bring it over on the weekend, and we can troubleshoot it.


_Modified by qwikxr at 4:47 PM 8-8-2005_


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## stylngle2003 (Oct 2, 2004)

*Re: (qwikxr)*

Ohhh, ok, I see what you guys are saying about the fuse...








I will try that method first, seeing as that is the first place in the circuit, makes sense to start there and work forward rather than start at the end and work backwards.
Which connections should I look for 12vdc at the PWCU? 
Thanks for bearing with me, guys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








oh and i have still yet to remove and inspect the ground for the PWCU, as the owner needed to take the car to work, but that is also on the very short list of things to do.


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: (stylngle2003)*

The big honking red lead in the jack. you have 3 jacks on the ECU one brown, one black and one white. Two of them are for the motors the other is for the power in from the fuse and the switches.....look for the big honking red lead.


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## stylngle2003 (Oct 2, 2004)

ok great.
when the floowing quote was mentioned:If you get 12v at 8b/7 and ground at 8b/1 then It would be the controller that is causing your grief
i should check this next after getting 12V switched and constant and checking the grounds, right?


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## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: (stylngle2003)*

William,

_Quote, originally posted by *stylngle2003* »_........
question for Tolusina (Ron):
you mentioned T2c and T2a...we are experiencing what seems to be the left window working, at least more so than the right window, but on the wiring diagram, i didn't see a T2c anywhere...is that just one of the connectors on the PWCU?.........

My Bad, I mis-typed. You are referring to the passage below, it should have read T8x instead of T2x.

_Quote, originally posted by *tolusina* »_.....Looking at my car and the pic, you'll see that the schematic lies. There are two wires in T2c, the diagram shows one. With T2c disconnected, the left window still works, with T2a open, neither window works.......

___________________

_Quote, originally posted by *stylngle2003* »_......so with the meter connected across the fuse slot.......

Wrong test procedure for a voltmeter, ok for an ammeter if you need to know current.
__________________

_Quote, originally posted by *stylngle2003* »_......Which connections should I look for 12vdc at the PWCU?.........

The honking big red is a 4.0mm cross section wire, should be hot all the time through fuse S37 (20A). It's counterpart is the honking brown 4.0mm.
Key on power that's really just a logic signal telling the ECU that the driver with the key is in the house, it's ok for the windows to work, is a 0.5mm black/blue wire to pin T8b/6. Since you've got relays clattering, this lead is probably ok.
____________________
I just went out and checked voltages at the switches, the logic behind the readings I got totally escapes me, I have a headache now, thank you _so much._
I did jumper/bypass the switches with them completely removed. 
Green (L) and green/white (R) are commons, jump to gray/red to go down, to gray/black to go up.
I still think your ECU is hosed........
Ron


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## stylngle2003 (Oct 2, 2004)

*Re: (tolusina)*

Thanks for clarifying, Ron. sorry bout the headache...hopefully by now it is feeling better








I went to the local VW Stealer, and they listed the part at an msrp of $341.86!! holy crap that's expensive. if it gets to that point, and we can't find a good used one, I think we may go to crank windows...but I don't want to jump to conclusions just yet


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## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: (stylngle2003)*

William,
You already know the motors are good, just wire them up to DPDT switches the old fashioned way.
Someone posted a simple schematic here to do just that a while back, maybe it will re-appear? Dean???
Ron


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## stylngle2003 (Oct 2, 2004)

*Re: (tolusina)*

Never fear, I'll do a search


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

YEP


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## stylngle2003 (Oct 2, 2004)

*Re: (briano1234)*

well, there is a used PWCU for sale, so that is an option i guess, but i would like to know for sure it will fix the problem.
hopefully will get to tests tomorrow, its raining today and i have been busy swapping a full black interior into my friend's jettaIII 2.0


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## stylngle2003 (Oct 2, 2004)

Bump, back on this in about 5 minutes
my list of things to check/do:
pull fuse panel down, check for 12V at both sides of fuse (by grounding black test lead to frame!) with the key off and key on.
pull and inspect the ground location for the PWCU, clean it up some, reinstall
check for 12V const. at the big ass red wire, then check for ground at the big Brown wire
check for 12V switched at the small black/blue wire (T8b/6) 
make conclusions based on that...


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## stylngle2003 (Oct 2, 2004)

ok, so here we go...i think I have ruled out anything but the ECU (yeah, yeah, Ron was right







) 
we have 12V at both sides of the fuse with the fuse in key off and key on.
we have good ground continuity between the big brown wire and it's location, as well as between the big brown wire and the frame, and the big brown wire's ground and the frame (used the door strikers for ground for all tests).
we have 12V continuous at the big red wire, and 12V switched at the little black wire (didnt have a black blue, but this was on the big white connector, so it had to be that one). 
i think it's time for a new ECU...what do you guys think?


_Modified by stylngle2003 at 9:16 PM 8-11-2005_


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: (stylngle2003)*

Yep


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## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: (stylngle2003)*


_Quote, originally posted by *stylngle2003* »_ (yeah, yeah, Ron was right ) 

neener neener


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## stylngle2003 (Oct 2, 2004)

just to clear things up, replacing the PWCU did fix the problems and they work fine now


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## Yoseppi (Aug 28, 2005)

*Re: (stylngle2003)*

Thanks for the update, I'm in the EXACT same scenario as you right now with non functional windows and a clicking PWCM as the suspect after cleaning all grounds and relay connectors related to the windows I could find.


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## Yoseppi (Aug 28, 2005)

*Re: (Yoseppi)*

Just as an update to anyone browsing this thread about the cabriolet PWCM.
I replaced my PWCM, and now my windows work perfectly again.
YEAH!!!!
Just replace that damn PWCM if your stuck with the dreaded clicking module and no power windows.


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## Yoseppi (Aug 28, 2005)

*Re: (Yoseppi)*

Aw **** it, nevermind, they are dead again the same ****ing day I post that they were fixed. After a week solid of rain, a few drops got in around the front window seal, (most likely) and killed my new module.
So now they are dead again, and now I can spend the winter hunting down a new module.
What was the listing of junkyards that someone posted here awhile ago?


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## kuklaki (Sep 10, 2002)

*Re: (Yoseppi)*

Would it be possible to wrap them in the same kind of plastic film as used to insulate the inside of the doors? Or would that cause problems?
If it wouldnt cause problems, that might help keep some water out, right?


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: (kuklaki)*

Christine you always make me think...Thanks, this is a good mod for every one with electric windows.
Take a dvd case and split off the top, The heat the edges so that you can bend them at a 45 degree angle. Then put it on top of the controller as a roof so that any rain or water that hits it is diverted from the assembly and the connectors.

Also it isn't the wihdshield that is probably your problem but check and remove all obstructions from the raintray so that it can drain, also that controller is right below your heater box. Make sure that your heater box's seals are good if not replace them. You can clean the crap away from the edges and runs a 1/4 inch bead of silicone around it.. Where any and all bolts go thru the raintray clean and seal them. 
The lip on the Heater box cut out is only like a 1/4 of an inch, if your drains are clean, then water can go under the seal and over the lip and right on your controller. What you think is the windshield leaking is in fact your heater box fresh air cover.
If you can see daylight from under the car then you gotta get the rust damage repaired. the bad thing is that you have to remove your windshield to do it correctly, and replace the gasket.
Good luck.....


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## Yoseppi (Aug 28, 2005)

*Re: (briano1234)*

My next PWCM will be sealed with silicone around the entire top area, and also sealed around the connectors. Plus I'll also try the DVD rain shield method.















I was thinking about even wrapping it in cling wrap many, many times even after siliconing it. But was curious if that would make any moisuure form inside of it.















Briano, where is this rain tray exaclty located you speak of? I can't see any daylight from inside the car, but don't mind trying anything.















I already siliconed the windshield seal just for extra measure after I had this happen.















Going to start calling online parts recyclers tomorrow to locate another module, even though I disassembled the current one and cleaned it with contact cleaner in hopes of a revival, but I ain't holding my breath.
Thanks for the modding info. Stupid ****ing module.
Later,
Joe


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: (Yoseppi)*

The rain tray is where the fresh air inlet is located and the wiper motor.... there are two holes on the far left and right that may have leaves and crap in them.


----------



## Yoseppi (Aug 28, 2005)

*Re: (briano1234)*

Well I found a spare module AGAIN from a Vortex member.
I put an entire tube of silicone sealant around the airbox to prevent any future leaks.
The drain plugs were clean, but there was some debris (leaves & junk) around the airbox.
When the new module arrives hopefully Mon or Tues, I will silicone the vox itself, silicone the connectors going in, then wrap the box in cling wrap, then a rain shield on top to defect any water. Phew, hopefully this should fix the window problem that seems to plague me.
Damn %$#$%^ module!!!!


----------



## corrado_in_ja (May 23, 2006)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (tolusina)*

Hey All, 
Tolusina gave clear details on this problem & they are great! I have a '90 corrado G60 with the same control unit as the cabbie but the wiring for mine has the plugs missing







& I need to know which wire connects to what pin. Do you have any details for pins 11 thru 28 as I now have to connect them individually







; any help wud be gr8ly apprc even a pic showing which wires go where. Thnks!


----------



## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (corrado_in_ja)*

Louis,

_Quote, originally posted by *corrado_in_ja* »_.......'90 corrado G60 ..........


Sorry, schematics here are '91 Corrado, the only year I have for Corrados.
Pics are close ups of my '92 Cabriolet.
Text is best I can figure between both schematics, Bentley typos strike again........








You'll also want or need to reference back to the ECU pic on the previous page of this thread.





































____________________________
_______________________
11 through 18, = T8a
15, brown/white = T8a/5
17, grey/red = T8a/7
14, green = T8a/4
16, grey/black = T8a/6
_______________________
21 through 28 = T8c
*22, green/white = T8c/4
24, grey/red = T8c/2
<edit>typo found, 22, 24 are listed reversed here, this section should have read as below</edit>*
22, grey/red = T8c/2
24, green/white = T8c/4
_______________________
31 through 38 , T8b
31, brown = T8b/1
34, black/red = T8b/4
35, brown/red = T8b/5
36, black/blue? = T8b/6
37, red = T8b/7
38, black/yellow = T8b/8
_______________________

Ron


_Modified by tolusina at 11:41 AM 5-28-2006_


----------



## corrado_in_ja (May 23, 2006)

*1990 Corrado G60 power window control unit*

Hey Ron,
Thanks ALOT for the info, The close up pics helped me tremendously http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif . My windows are finally working again but I still have 2 wires that I guess aren't used in the cabbie & I dunno where to put em in my g60. 
They apparently control the switch on the drivers door to operate the right window. Guess they would have to go btwn pins 11 & 28 -Have any idea where they go? One is Red/Yellow & the other is Green/Yellow.
If you don't know then I'm screwed.







Mebbe yu can take a trip to JA & fix it 4 me, drinks on the house








NE way, I'm still grateful for everything you've provided so far. Thanks again man.
Louis.


----------



## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: 1990 Corrado G60 power window control unit (corrado_in_ja)*

Louis,
Try this........
Looking at the schematic, the green/yellow goes to T8a/1, that should be pin 11.
Red/yellow goes to pin T8c/6 (comes from the central locking system switch in the driver's door), pin 26.

Ron


----------



## corrado_in_ja (May 23, 2006)

*Re: 1990 Corrado G60 power window control unit (tolusina)*

Ron,
You saved the day. You need to be inducted into the Vortex hall of fame.







The plugs worked exactly as yu said they wud. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I am mobile again








I doubt there's nething you don't already know about VW's but if yu think I can help free to Email me . 
And if yure ever in Jamaica, gimme a call & I'll give you a tour in the only corrado left on the island.








Thanks Alot,
Louis.


----------



## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: 1990 Corrado G60 power window control unit (corrado_in_ja)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## stylngle2003 (Oct 2, 2004)

*Re: 1990 Corrado G60 power window control unit (tolusina)*

glad to see this post is still going strong. for the record, the '93 cab's windows work still. the only issue is sometimes the passenger side takes a few clicks of the switch before it reacts
-billy


----------



## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (stylngle2003)*

Bump with a schematic to replace the ECU with relays.
You'll no longer have to wait for one window to complete it's run before the other can start.
There will be no more auto-shut off once a door is opened.
The auto-down feature will no longer work.
This circuit differs from some others I've seen in that it includes dynamic braking circuitry, same like manufacturers use to stop motors immediately as soon as power is removed. No coasting after power is off allowed.
A pair of relays needed per window.















_Modified by tolusina at 1:39 AM 8-5-2006_


----------



## DustyGTI (Apr 16, 2005)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (tolusina)*

Can someone elaborate on the Relay system used in the previous picture? one relay makes it so the power wire of the motor gets power and the ground gets ground, making the window go up. Now the other relay makes it so the Power wire of the motor gets ground and the ground gets power making the window go down. Is this right??


----------



## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (DustyGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DustyGTI* »_What relays should i buy? Just 12v relays, 2 for each window motor?

Bosch, Hella, Osram and others all make relays with the standardized pin numbering shown above, pin configurations are standard too.
The relays used in the schematics above differ from the most commonly used 4 pin relay, they have a 5th, "87A" terminal. Look for 5 pins with a normally closed contact set.
Yes, 12volt coils, I'd look for at least a 15 Amp rating or higher, two for each window. 
For switches, any low current SPDT momentary contact switches will work, one per window.
_________

_Quote, originally posted by *DustyGTI* »_LOL here's my diagram. I think this is right. Perty much reverses the polarity of the motor to make it go up and down right?









_Modified by DustyGTI at 1:29 AM 11-12-2006_


_________
Try this......











I've added only the switch for clarity. All the + symbols connect to power, ground symbols all connect direct to ground. 
Depending on how you want the windows to operate, to terminal 85 on both relays you could connect battery direct power (30) so they can run any time, key on power (15) so the key needs to be on or key buzzer circuit (SU) so the key needs to be in but not necessarily on. Operating the relay coil(s) draws little current, source where you choose.
I would connect both relay terminals 87 to FUSED battery power, one inline fuse for both relays would be fine as only one can operate at a time.
The green and blue leads marked "Window Lead" are the only leads connected to the motor leads. If the motor runs opposite what you desire you can invert the switch, swap the switch leads or swap the motor leads.


----------



## DustyGTI (Apr 16, 2005)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (tolusina)*

Ok, makes way more sense now, thanks sooooooooooo much. lol 
*I O U*


----------



## ens (Dec 14, 2006)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (DustyGTI)*

the switch for the window has 5 pins
2 for the lights and 3 for the switch
1- ground 4- 10amp interior light
3- is the power coming into the switch
so im guessing 2 and 5 are sending switched power/grd?
is the momentary switch oem in the diagram above?
im trying to integrate a system for remote power windows running from a car alarm.. and i want to use rons idea of adding relays instead of the vw unit. 



_Modified by ens at 11:16 AM 3-4-2007_


----------



## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (ens)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ens* »_.......
3- is the power coming into the switch
so im guessing 2 and 5 are sending switched power/grd?
is the momentary switch oem in the diagram above?
im trying to integrate a system for remote power windows running from a car alarm.. and i want to use rons idea of adding relays instead of the vw unit. ...........

I don't recall what I found on pin 3 on the switch. I do recall testing voltages on pins 2 and 5, I specifically did NOT find ordinary voltage.ground signals. Readings were gibberish on my DVOM, appeared to be logic signals of some sort beyond the ability of a DVOM to display coherently.
No reason at all the low current rated factory switches couldn't or shouldn't be used with the home brew schematic above.


----------



## sbc63trls250 (Aug 8, 2004)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (tolusina)*

ok so i think i have this problem also. but im not to familar with all this electrical stuff. i'll just explain my situation with this. 
the passenger side window works ok. when i hit the button it makes a clicking noise from under the passengerside dash.
when i hit the driverside button it makes a click and nothing happens. so i first instinct was that the window motor went bad. so i hooked up another motor and that didn't work either.. so thats when i found this thread. any one have any opinions?


----------



## backinthegame (Dec 14, 2004)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (sbc63trls250)*

First, try swapping the switches to eliminate the possibility of a bad switch. If that doesn't work, read this whole thread.


----------



## thegek (Oct 16, 2004)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (stylngle2003)*

It's been some time since the original post, so I hope you're still active. This is my first time responding to this forum. 
I'm having similar problems with the power windows in my 92 Cabriolet. My testing has shown that the control unit may be bad. However, I cannot find the 20A fuse (S37 in the Bentley manual) for the lifters. My owner's manual shows a 10A fuse (#17) for the switches and a 20A separate fuse for the lifters above the fuse panel, but I cannot find it. Is it the same type as fuse 17? Or does it look more like a relay? Thanks.
The gek


----------



## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (thegek)*

Page 3!! No way.......
---
The schematics back on the 1st page of this thread show only fuse S37, no separate fuse for the switches. No fuse is needed for the switches, they carry only very low current signaling voltages, all the high current draws of the motor are handled by the relays inside the ECU.

kamzcab86's marvelous http://cabbyinfo.com electrical page
http://dana.ucc.nau.edu/~kaw5/electrical.htm
shows the fuse in location 13. 
I just checked my '92, found S37 in location 17 where the power top fuse is shown, it is indeed the power window fuse, it is a conventional style fuse. My '92 has no power top.
Fuse S17 on the electrical page above is shown blank. Bentley's '91 up schematic shows fuse S17 as for the DigiFant Control Unit Relay.
Back out in my '92, I find a fuse in the S17 location, when removed, the car still runs and the windows operate so it is neither window or DigiFant related. I don't know what S17 does, maybe it should be blank but the fuse present appears factory original.
I'm 100% certain the Bentley main schematic is wrong regarding the DigiFant relay power, it actually is fed power through the air bag controller harness, that diagram is in the extras in the back of the book.


----------



## thegek (Oct 16, 2004)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (tolusina)*

Thanks, Tolusina, for the quick feedback. There seems to be more than one wiring scheme for this model. I eventually found the PW lifter fuse (20A) on top of the fusebox. My car also has a 10A fuse at position 17 for the switches. 
Sure enough, the 20A fuse was blown and I replaced it, but it did not fix my problem. I removed the Control Unit, opened it and found some corrosion in the terminals, which I cleaned off. Also relay #2 showed a high resistance, which disappeared when I cleaned the contact points.. However, the windows still do not work properly. I can power the windows down, but not up. I can see the contacts closing, but apparently not enough current flows to power the window up! Obviously, the two wires from the controller to the motor plug are ok, otherwise I would not be able to power the window down. 
Before I invest in another control unit does anyone have any suggestions on what might be wrong. I'm almost certain the problem is limited to the control unit. Thanks


----------



## StantonGTI (Dec 11, 2002)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (thegek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *thegek* »_Thanks, Tolusina, for the quick feedback. There seems to be more than one wiring scheme for this model. I eventually found the PW lifter fuse (20A) on top of the fusebox. My car also has a 10A fuse at position 17 for the switches. 
Sure enough, the 20A fuse was blown and I replaced it, but it did not fix my problem. I removed the Control Unit, opened it and found some corrosion in the terminals, which I cleaned off. Also relay #2 showed a high resistance, which disappeared when I cleaned the contact points.. However, the windows still do not work properly. I can power the windows down, but not up. I can see the contacts closing, but apparently not enough current flows to power the window up! Obviously, the two wires from the controller to the motor plug are ok, otherwise I would not be able to power the window down. 
Before I invest in another control unit does anyone have any suggestions on what might be wrong. I'm almost certain the problem is limited to the control unit. Thanks 

The Gek,
I just got a new Power Window Module, mine was still working, but it was causing a key off draw. Any way, if you paypal me shipping, I 'll send you my old module for free.
This way you'll be able to see if the module is the issue without having to track one down, or spend the money. Of course, if my module does fix the problem, you'll still need to get a new one, because mine will cause your battery to go dead in three days








Also, when looking for a new one, try to get one from a Scirocco, Jetta or Passat. They are the same part number and have not been rained on.


----------



## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (thegek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *thegek* »_........I can see the contacts closing, but apparently not enough current flows to power the window up! .... 

Sounds as though all the input control circuitry is fine, I agree, not enough current is passing for up operation.
Clean all the contacts you can, especially the ones you see closing for up operation, follow the paths from the relay contacts to the circuit board, then to the power output terminals, look for cracked traces and/or broken solder joints. Don't be shy about re-flowing any or all questionable solder joints, sometimes a shotgun approach is the only way to fix an open joint that cannot be seen otherwise. Should you find a broken trace, there's little but imagination (or lack of) to prevent bypassing such breaks with a bit of wire.


----------



## kamzcab86 (Feb 14, 2002)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (tolusina)*


_Quote, originally posted by *tolusina* »_kamzcab86's marvelous http://cabbyinfo.com electrical page
http://dana.ucc.nau.edu/~kaw5/electrical.htm
shows the fuse in location 13. 

That page is primarily based on Bentley's listings. A couple of errors have been corrected, but 90% of it still either in the air or actually correct (did that make any sense?







)

_Quote, originally posted by *tolusina* »_the Bentley main schematic is wrong

No surprise there...















Bentley is the best of the manuals, but it needs a serious re-write.


----------



## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (kamzcab86)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kamzcab86* »_......
Bentley is the best of the manuals, but it needs a serious re-write.










I just read that a revised edition release has just been announced. Oh wait, I was dreaming, it was such a nice nap too. I had 450k on an A1 with original fuel and coolant pumps, mounts and head gasket, the car was manufacturing ignition switches to sell to Honda and Toyota owners.
















---
Really, parts of Bentley remind me of 14th Century maps when the World was still flat, unexplored areas beyond the horizon were marked _"Demons Go There"_ .


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## thegek (Oct 16, 2004)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (StantonGTI)*

Stanton; Interestingly, I have had battery problems with this car for many years. It dies if I park it for 2-3 days. I did test the fuses for voltage drop, but didn't find anything useful. Two "mechanics" failed to resolve the issue. Perhaps the voltage drop was due to the power window CU gathering corrosion over theyears. My daughter (U of Penna grad student) uses the car, so I put a quick disconnect on the battery terminal to deal with the problem.
Did you try to fix your old CU? Did you buy a new or used unit? How expensive? 
.
Thanks for the offer. I will be travelling between Norristown and Phila Wed, Thur and Fri next week. Any chance of hooking up?


----------



## StantonGTI (Dec 11, 2002)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (thegek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *thegek* »_Stanton; Interestingly, I have had battery problems with this car for many years. It dies if I park it for 2-3 days. I did test the fuses for voltage drop, but didn't find anything useful. Two "mechanics" failed to resolve the issue. Perhaps the voltage drop was due to the power window CU gathering corrosion over theyears. My daughter (U of Penna grad student) uses the car, so I put a quick disconnect on the battery terminal to deal with the problem.
Did you try to fix your old CU? Did you buy a new or used unit? How expensive? 
.
Thanks for the offer. I will be travelling between Norristown and Phila Wed, Thur and Fri next week. Any chance of hooking up?

TheGek-
I bought a used one out of a Corrado for $9. I've seen them on eBay for anywhere from $10-$50. Here's one on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...ZWDVW
I work in Conshohocken, and live in East Falls (just of of Kelly). Let me know if you want to hook up. Any day but tomorrow will work.


----------



## thegek (Oct 16, 2004)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (StantonGTI)*

Stanton: 
I have found three sources via the internet. I'll also check the one you found. Although I don't like buying units from cars other than my exact model, I guess if they have the same part # the risk is small. Nevertheless, I would like to watch how the relays in your unit work and compare it to mine, and perhaps I can figure out why they're not working. 
I'll be in Plymouth Meeting Wednesday and Thursday - an easy ride to Conshy or East Falls. My niece lives on Hector St near the Fayette St bridge. I can be reached at 215-825-7668 or [email protected] Thanks for the offer. George


----------



## CwazyWabbit (Mar 22, 2008)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (stylngle2003)*

I have a 1990 with the same problem, I took the window control out 
pulled the box open and found moisture had collected and the relays
were rusty. One of the springs was gone, I went to Ace picked up a 
spring cut it to length (compared to the others) installed all back in the car and the windows work perfect. The control box is not potted or sealed in any way, when I put it back together I sealed it with silicone and put dielectric grease on the plugs to prevent corrosion. Its an easy fix, hope this helps.


----------



## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (CwazyWabbit)*

The reason it had moisture is that your heater box exterior has a crappy seal and your rain tray drains are plugged allowing water to back up and enter your heater plenum and then pour over the controller.








Re-route the hoses that may be in the rain drain.








Then you may want to locate or create a leaf shield, to keep your drains clean.








the D-I-Y is here:
http://mk1dubs.com/modules.php...utter


----------



## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (CwazyWabbit)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CwazyWabbit* »_I have a 1990 with the same problem, I took the window control out 
pulled the box open and found moisture had collected and the relays
were rusty. One of the springs was gone, I went to Ace picked up a 
spring cut it to length (compared to the others) installed all back in the car and the windows work perfect. The control box is not potted or sealed in any way, when I put it back together I sealed it with silicone and put dielectric grease on the plugs to prevent corrosion. Its an easy fix, hope this helps.
















Nice!! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## fonamna (Jul 21, 2008)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (tolusina)*

My window works when it is cold outside but not at all in these hot AZ summer days. I was wondering where the control unit is located exactly? So I can see if there is any water in it. I was thinking maybe moisture freezes in the CU allowing the window to work.
Is this it and where is it?








John


----------



## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems (fonamna)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fonamna* »_..... I was wondering where the control unit is located exactly? .....


That pic and this thread all refer to A1 *Cabriolet* power window operation.

Your '97 is an A3 *Cabrio*. 

A3s don't use a single controller for all windows, instead, each window has it's own controller integral with the motor assembly.


----------



## sennasixty8 (Nov 18, 2007)

tolusina, 
did you ever post up a relay schem, using/utilizing the stock window switches....? 
I have a close family friend who's window CU died, I pulled th cU, cleaned it, used dielectric grease, and it still only clicked, regardless of which switch, up or down. 
I ended up jumping the plugs to get the windows UP, but want to build relays for the car, utilizing the stock switch wiring, IF possible.
please advise...


----------



## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: (sennasixty8)*


_Quote, originally posted by *sennasixty8* »_.....a relay schem, using/utilizing the stock window switches....? .....


Yup. It's on page 2, looks like this........









Schematic is for one window, duplicate it for the second window. The low current rated stock switches should work fine. I'll try and remember to double check the stock switch functions tomorrow, they happen to be very handy at the moment, Fluke meter is less than handy.

---

_Quote, originally posted by *sennasixty8* »_...... window CU died, I pulled th cU, cleaned it, used dielectric grease, and it still only clicked, regardless of which switch, up or down. ...
 

Did you get far enough inside the ECU that you could clean the relay contacts? Since they click, all that's left for them to do is switch, they do that through the contacts. Also, with a magnifier and good light as needed, follow the circuit traces from the relay contacts out to the external connection contacts, look for cold or broken solder joints, re-solder with a low wattage iron.


----------



## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*Re: (tolusina)*

From IM.........
_"(7:30 PM 2-22-2010) jason92300: I have a question about relaying the power windows in my 90 cabby. Ok, I've pretty much got it all done with four relays (2 per window). First small issue I ran into was the wiring for the door motors which had a blk/ylw, blk/red, brn/red. The brn/red seems to be shared between both left and right motors and is joined together close to the control unit. I cut the brn/red at the union so that i'll have a brn/red, blk/ylw for the right window and the blk/red, brn/red for the left. Ok now for the question, I trying to figure out the best way to control the relays via the switches. There is a green(left) and a green/white(right) for those wires I grounded them. Then there is a gray/blk, gray/red that again seems to be shared between both switches. So do I use the gray/red, gray/blk for one side then run two new wires from the other switch to the other set of relays? I keep thinking I might be missing something but I thought i'd check with you first to be sure. Sorry about the length of this IM."_

Maybe all your questions are answered by the pic in the post above, if not, read through the whole thread, post up questions that remain. 
From your IM, it sounds like you are very close.


----------



## jason92300 (Jan 28, 2004)

*Re: (tolusina)*

Thanks for your help, but this post mostly covers cleaning and replacing the control unit. Not alot of info on ditching the control unit then using standard 5 pin bosch relays as per your diagram. My power windows work, I was looking for someone that has done this and was just curious to what they have done to signal the relays from right to left sides. At the harness (were the control unit was and relays are now) there is only one gray/black and one gray/red which is from the switches and both (left & right sides) are wired together. So to anyone that has done this, did you run two new wires from one of the switches to one pair of relays and then use the factory gray/blk, gray/red to signal the other set? Or is there another way i'm not aware of?


----------



## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *jason92300* »_.......... there is only one gray/black and one gray/red which is from the switches and both (left & right sides) are wired together. So to anyone that has done this, did you run two new wires from one of the switches to one pair of relays and then use the factory gray/blk, gray/red to signal the other set?....

Thanks to the way the factory wired up the standard switches to be logic switches with multiple common wires, yes, you've pretty much got your solution already, separate wires for each switch would be the simplest effective circuit.


----------



## jason92300 (Jan 28, 2004)

*Re: FV-QR (tolusina)*

Thanks, thats what I figured. Now if you pull the switches out you can see that the wires (gray/red, gray/black) are indeed serperated but somewhere in the harness (that disappears behind the dash) they are unioned. Does anyone know where that location might be? I would rather splice in there than splicing near the switches.


----------



## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*FV-QR*

Last I saw of that harness (and the rest of the power window stuff) the_mad_rabbit was loading it up, he may still have the harness laying around, maybe he'll chime in.


----------



## KFo86 (Feb 14, 2012)

lookin for the relays to do this but they're all special order.. does anyone have a part number?


----------



## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*FV-QR*

http://www.rallylights.com/hella/Hella 12V SPDT Relays.aspx


----------



## KFo86 (Feb 14, 2012)

Thanks Tolusina. This all seems pretty simple , and cheap to do. 

I know It requires a SPDT Toggle Switch, but do I want one with the ON/OFF/ON or just ON/ON . The way I'm picturing it in my head is if the switch can only go UP or DOWN.. it will always be trying to run the motor. 

This is why I'd want a cheap toggle switch that can go back to center?


----------



## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*FV-QR*

Yeah, what I drew up there, SPDT, center off, probably be best to have momentary contact too I'd think.


----------



## PainKiller (Oct 3, 2007)

sorry for bringing this back from the dead but one of my windows is stuck down and the other up. Im getting a 'clicking' from both switches ...Ill read these 3 pages and see if I cant figure it out

Im not good at electrical work so I might have to recruit some help but Ill post up once I figure it out ! 

thanks in advance guys ! cabby forums sure beat the sh*t out of the MKIV pages :laugh:


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

Clicking means that the controller is half good, and half bad.
Clean out your Rain Drains and reseal the Fresh air plenum.
If you don't have a Rain divertor then you need to get one as that channels water off the hood via the fresh air vents in to the divertor and over to the drains. If the drains are clogged then you get water backing up and into your fresh air plenum and right over your window controller box.

The Jetta, and Passant Both use the same controller so you may be able to find one in the Yards.

Chances are that if you take your controller apart, you can clean it up and get it working again.

Clean vent and drains.









Clean vent, hoses routed out of the drain, and snap of divertor:









How water can back up:










See making a Debris guard to keep debris out of it.


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## tolusina (Oct 19, 2004)

*FV-QR*

A click from the switch is just a mechanical click, doesn't mean much at all.
When operating either switch, listen for relay click sounds from the top right area of the dash, that's where the controller is located. Expect a short delay when switching from one side to the other.

If the controller clicks from both switches, then the switches and their wiring are fine (the system's inputs), the problem is in the output side. 
The output side includes the controller, the motors and the wiring between.

The controller looks like this, you'll have to look way up above the kneebar on the right side to see it...........
















.


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## briano1234 (Feb 20, 2004)

My Passenger side window started acting up as in rolling down with no Key, 
no switch movement, and only occasionally opening the drivers door would the 
window move down some.

I was resolved to fix it.

The controller is on the passenger side under the knee bar.









Remove the passenger side vent, and duct (you can see what you are doing and get your arm in there.
Remove the 2 10mm nuts holding the unit to the frame.

Now you have the controller down disconnect the wires.
The brown and black have clips that you push in, and are Keyed (can't get them in wrong)
The large white one is a mother, and considerable wiggling and pulling (it isn't a lock connector)


























To open the case you have to use 3 flat blade screw drivers to get the box off the circuit board.








Pry and push a bit to release the 3 catches, then on the edge pry up. This will release it a git on either end, then you go and
insert a screw driver on the other side to release the catch and pry up, it will pop out.









The back side, see the surface mounted components.









The front side:









They are all single throw relays.
The components I couldn't find listed in Mouser but they are:

Main IC 
Intel 5396 201650 dsd9201V5 (1977)

The next IC is TI 321CA
Crystal Phillips 3.0mhz 019079208

1 c875 Transistor
2 c517 Transistor

1 Toshiba descrete 7900s

3 22Mic 25V electrolytic caps
1 1Mic 63V electrolytic cap

1 heat sinked descrete BD438

There are a bunch of surface mount diodes and caps on the bottom


I went over my controller with a fine tooth comb and didn't see any water or cold soldered joints.

So I decided that we needed to see a truth table for the relays.
I reconnected the power and switches and got this:










I buttoned it back up and I added one more thing. A WATER SHIELD. to make sure that the controller don't get wet.
I took the vinyl outer wrapper off a DVD case, and Poked 2 holes in it.

















Here it is all mounted up notice that I made a channel for the water to run off and away from the unit.









Now back to my original issue I decided to cut the little Brown/White wire back off the connector, and tape off both ends.

Here is the cool part about this mod.

Do you occasionally turn off your car and open the doors only to remember that you didn't roll up the windows?
Well this little brown/white wire is the door open ground from the driver door. So now for a few minutes you can roll up or down your windows with the drivers door open or closed.


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## Newcabby (Jun 7, 2016)

*Same but different?*

Hey folks,
Thanks for all your wisdom as I am new to VW ownership and to this site! Bought the wifey a 90 cab with power front windows and manual rear (no power top). first day driving and the pass window went down but wouldn't raise. I have read through this and am especially interested in Briano's last diagram of the relays. I pulled the PWCM down and opened up. everything looks great as this cab has been garaged for last 15 years and only has 51k original miles. With cover off and connections remade the relays give same activity as Briano lists in his diagram. Driver window works. I also swapped dash switches with no success. I then removed the door panel and put direct power to motor and the window came up. So my question is: The switch is good, PWCM under dash appears to be functioning and it does click. The motor works with direct power and ground, So what do I do now? Thank you in advance for your assistance


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## AndyTnT (Jun 12, 2018)

*A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems Check leads and connections*



tolusina said:


> A click from the switch is just a mechanical click, doesn't mean much at all.
> When operating either switch, listen for relay click sounds from the top right area of the dash, that's where the controller is located. Expect a short delay when switching from one side to the other.
> 
> If the controller clicks from both switches, then the switches and their wiring are fine (the system's inputs), the problem is in the output side.
> ...















This was my problem Check your Leads and connections 

Check the relays for functionality


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