# Blowing smoke after 40-50 mi trip



## Kona0915 (Jan 22, 2010)

Last Monday took a 120 mile round trip, stopped off on the way home for a little game of miniature golf with the wife. Get in the car to leave, start it up and smoke just starts pouring out the exhaust and smells really rich like gas. Not being sure what was going on had it towed 33 miles to the delaership I work with. There is no CEL or warning lights of any kind. The only thing they could come up with was possibly a bad coil pack causing it not to burn hot enough to burn off all the fuel. Bought 5 new coils and installed, pulled all the NGK plugs I put in 4 weeks ago and one was fouled pretty bad so changed it. Everything is running great no smoke until...........today. Took a 45 mile trip, stopped off at a rest stop, got back in and boom smoke again. As soon as I revved the engine and started to go the smoke went away and it drove fine. No warning lights again. Drove it 45 mi back home, let it sit 5 minutes went out and started again, again more smoke. It's a fuel heavy smelling smoke

Any clues? Don't want to just start "throwing" parts at it. When the dealership had it they said they ran a scan and came back with no codes. The only thing I keep wondering, and they say it has nothing to do with it, they replaced the N112 Secondary Air Valve 2 weeks before this started happening. Said it was full of carbon deposits. Since this only happens on longer trips and during a restart when hot could that valve be causing a problem?

Looking for some ideas, not burning oil, not burning coolant, not idling rough, no warning lights. Just hit 200 miles on this tank of gas and still have half a tank left. Could a batch of bad gas caused this? 2 weeks ago I had to fill up at a station I NEVER use (Kroger, it's a big grocery chain in Cincinnati that has gas pumps) but didn't have a choice I was running way low and wasn't going to make it back to work.


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## Nettozx (Dec 31, 2015)

What color is the smoke? White? Blueish? Black?


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## Kona0915 (Jan 22, 2010)

Starts White changes to black then goes away with a couple quick revs of the engine


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## Kona0915 (Jan 22, 2010)

Doesn't appear to.be burning oil or losing coolant.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

what year vehicle?
mileage?

a bad coil pack will throw an error code.

a bad fuel injector, may not. you can likely get a relative error code if the test results are past a certain threshold; e.g. a random misfire code or an o2 sensor code. keep in mind that you can get 'pending' codes that can clear themselves if the proper conditions are eventually met. for instance, if you revved the engine and the smoke cleared, then the system is running like it is supposed to, then the pending codes will clear after a few miles.

if you remember which plug had been fouled up, you can probably identify the culprit injector.

was the secondary air valve covered under warranty? were you getting any error codes then? why were they looking there?

give us a little more insight.


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## Kona0915 (Jan 22, 2010)

le0n said:


> what year vehicle?
> mileage?
> 
> a bad coil pack will throw an error code.
> ...


2005 MK5 94,000 miles. It was plug 5 that was fouled ( far right looking at the engine). Secondary air valve was not under warranty and it did throw a code, I'll have to go back and see which code it was but I believe it was P0411


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## Kona0915 (Jan 22, 2010)

It's not idling rough and only smokes after its been on the highway for a 40+ mile trip. Shorter trips it doesn't do it.

All new NGK plugs installed at 93k gapped to 1mm. Oil changes every 10k per manual. Shell 87 octane gas is the only gas other than the one tank of Kroger 3 weeks ago that's been in it.

Was thinking when this tank of gas runs down filling it with 93 octane for a little boost/clean and also doing a seafoam treatment to maybe clear out a clogged or stuck injector


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

the kroger fill-up may just be a coincidence. so it's best to treat it as that for now.

your fuel filter would have sorted out any particulates that could have possibly been in the fuel. i take it that you changed that at 80k miles.

either way, it sounds like an injector is sticking. you can look at your fuel trims in real time when it is running properly vs. smoking and see what the differences are. you may be dumping fuel into that cylinder at a rate that can't be burned off properly.

i suggest inspecting the plugs again and noting any fouling characteristics.


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## Nettozx (Dec 31, 2015)

Kona0915 said:


> Starts White changes to black then goes away with a couple quick revs of the engine


White usually means coolant, and black usually means fuel.
For the black smoke I would start with getting some fuel injector cleaner and dumping that in the tank, also if you haven't changed your fuel filter in the last 50k I would do that. 
White smoke is usually more dangerous (if its not just water vapor), I would check for any signs of damage on the engine and see if you can log information from the obdii port.


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## Kona0915 (Jan 22, 2010)

I missed the fuel filter change :banghead: Have to do that.

Unfortunately don't have a scanner, have considered picking a basic one up to read codes but doubt that will help in this situation or will it? Just came in from moving my car into the driveway and it smells rich. Not blowing smoke and hasn't all day, my trip to work isn't long enough. I'll pull the plugs again this weekend and look, I have a feeling if any are fouled it will be #5 again.

Will dump a can of seafoam in the next tank which this one will run low enough in the next day or so to fill up. It can't hurt only help (fingers crossed)

If it is an injector how much of a nightmare is it to change one? Also what would cause one to stick aren't they electronically controlled?


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

The $8 shipped bluetooth elm-327 (can-bus) obd2 scanner would work wonders with an android phone or device. 

I always have mine. 

Search ebay for a US shipper to get it pretty quickly.

The Android app: "Torque" has a free version.

Edit: the injectors are right there on top. Not difficult to get to.


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## Kona0915 (Jan 22, 2010)

le0n said:


> The $8 shipped bluetooth elm-327 (can-bus) obd2 scanner would work wonders with an android phone or device.
> 
> I always have mine.
> 
> ...


Holy crap that's incredible, thought a scanner to do this would run some big bucks!!!


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

if you get the paid version of Torque, i think you get access to a few more pids (e.g., "boost" if you have a turbo). plus you'll be able to access some other custom settings.

i can't remember. i bought the app a long time ago for $5. the guy is always making updates to it too.

i use it to check/clear codes, mainly. it also has real-time logging and some other cool features.


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## Kona0915 (Jan 22, 2010)

Looks.like I'm ordering one of those today!! 

Any of you ever replaced an injector on a 2.5L non turbo? Amy special tools required or tips you care to share?


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

^^ take a peak at my intake manifold removal tutorial: http://www.europeanag.com/forum/index.php/topic,34064.0.html

look at all of the photos/captions in the first post and you should have a really good understanding of what you need to do.

just ignore the stuff about the intake manifold


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## Kona0915 (Jan 22, 2010)

le0n said:


> ^^ take a peak at my intake manifold removal tutorial: http://www.europeanag.com/forum/index.php/topic,34064.0.html
> 
> look at all of the photos/captions in the first post and you should have a really good understanding of what you need to do.
> 
> just ignore the stuff about the intake manifold



Looks like I need a 10mm triple square drive. How does the injector disconnect from the fuel rail? Anything that needs to be done before or after removal and replacement?

Just ordered a scanner 

When testing the fuel trim like was mentioned before. Do I just leave it in while I'm driving or when it's idle? Just asking as I'll have to make about a 40 mi one way trip before I notice the issues. Didn't know if it would record while driving?

Also filled up with 93 octane today and put a can of seafoam in the tank just to try it. Plan on pulling the plugs again this weekend to look at them as well as hopefully have some info from the scanner.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

the 'logging' might only be enabled when you get the paid app. but yes, you can have it begin logging the moment the car starts and then email/review the data in excel after your trip. if for some reason it doesn't act up, you just do it again. the files aren't big and the bluetooth doesn't burn your battery like wifi or gps radios can.

when i hyper-mile, i take logs just to see how things are working.

here's an example:








i annotated the chart afterward.

you just pick a few PIDs to log and it saves them. i think you can specify the logging interval in seconds too.


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## Kona0915 (Jan 22, 2010)

Got the scanner yesterday, downloaded torque lite for now. I see fuel trim short term and fuel trims with Bank numbers which would be best to use


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## Kona0915 (Jan 22, 2010)

Bought the full version of Torque today. Wow!

Ran a 45 mile trip today and did real time logging. After the trip shut the car off, restarted, not the usual amount of smoke just a little. Here's a screen shot of the readout from when I restarted my car after the trip. Sorry I'm not versed in Excel and don't know how to make graphs, I tried but didn't work

You can see the fuel trim at startup hit 10.125 then dropped.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

it's a neat app, huh?

check out this page i found:http://www.easterncatalytic.com/education/tech-tips/fuel-trim-can-be-a-valuable-diagnostic-tool/
note the area where it talks about raising the rpms to 2500 too.

here's what the long term and short term fuel trims should look like at idle:









pm me if you want me to read the excel file in its raw form.


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## Kona0915 (Jan 22, 2010)

Shout out to Le0n for reading the raw Excel file and giving me some tips via PM. I ran a tank of 93 octane through along with seafoam in the tank. Still running rich. Rain held off long enough tonight to pull the plugs and look at them. Plug 5 was fouled pretty bad after the first smoking incident. Here's what they look like now ( I replaced plug 5 about 2 weeks ago when I put new coil packs in)


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## Kona0915 (Jan 22, 2010)

Here is what plug 5 looked like before I changed the coil packs. I replaced this plug when I put the new coils in. Ignore the hair you are seeing, just remembered I had thrown it in the trash in my shop and we'll I have a dog and some of her fur that was swept up was in the can

Keep in mind this plug was 3 weeks old


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## Ronny Bensys (Apr 17, 2014)

Smells like timing chain. What is your OCI?


Here is what Bosch says about its plugs.

Sooted — Carbon-fouled
Insulator nose, electrodes and spark plug shell covered with velvet-like dull black soot deposits.
Cause: Incorrect mixture setting (carburetor fuel injection); mixture too rich, air filter very dirty, automatic choke not in order or manual choke pulled too long, mainly short-distance driving, spark plug too cold, heat-range code number too low.
Effects: Misfiring, difficult cold-starting.
Remedy: Adjust A/F mixture and choke device, check air filter.


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## Kona0915 (Jan 22, 2010)

Ronny Bensys said:


> Smells like timing chain. What is your OCI?
> 
> 
> Here is what Bosch says about its plugs.
> ...


OCI is 8000-10000. Which the manual calls for 10,000. All oil changes either done at the dealership or by me using factory Castrol Syntec Edge oil.

The timing chain jumped time somewhere in the 40-50k range, have to go back and look at me records. Luckily no damage to the engine. New timing chain and tensioners when that happened so would be surprised if it's that.

Haven't had an opportunity to make any longer trips the past few weeks, schedule has just had to many things on it. Not smelling as rich as it was and seems to be running o.k. I do have another realtime scan I ran that I need to download and look at, ran the same thing on the wife's '09 Jetta to compare numbers with.


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## Ronny Bensys (Apr 17, 2014)

In my opinion it is the timing chain. 10,000 miles OCI over 94,000 miles obviously couldn't keep it longer. Did you replace slide rails too when you changed timing chain and tensioners?

I wouldn't go beyond 6500 miles (10,000 km) OCI as timing chain is critical part of 2.5Ls that needs regular change intervals and synthetic 5w-40. 10,000 mile OCI is way over our engines.


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## Kona0915 (Jan 22, 2010)

Threw a code today P0411 which is what it threw when they replaced the N112


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

per Ross-tech: http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/16795/P0411/001041


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## Kona0915 (Jan 22, 2010)

So what I read is that this goody secondary air system is pretty much for start up and helping get the engine up to temp. My question is depending on cost is it worth doing it or can it be bypassed and removed and not have to deal with it? I'm guessing if it's removed it has to be chipped so it can be programmed to not throw a CEL because it's not connected.


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## Ronny Bensys (Apr 17, 2014)

P0411 - Secondary Air Injection System: Incorrect Flow Detected. The code doesn't necessarily mean the pump is faulty. It is rather wrong ignition timing and misfires causing the incorrect flow. It is likely P0411 is a consequence of bad combustion and exhaust timing. Ignore it for now.


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## Kona0915 (Jan 22, 2010)

According to the dealer, upper secondary air injection hose. Anyone replaced one. They quoted me $485 :-o

Here's the part
https://www.eeuroparts.com/Parts/64...azxWu8eGfbnOWTmeEFxIhcdiHlkyCjSPB0aAp1d8P8HAQ


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