# ARRRGH!!!! Effing Hawk pads!



## trh (May 30, 2002)

I just cooked some brand new HP+s last night at the track. It was rainy, low traction, and I still managed to cook them. I'm probably the most careful person at the track when cooling my car and my brakes, and while I brake hard, I don't often get to boil the fluid (sometimes in mid-summer). These pads were 2 weeks old and properly bedded-in.
I have stock size rotors, Motul fluid, and HP+ pads. This was my 3rd and last set of them.
*So...* I'm looking for a recommendation. I drive 60,000 km+ per year, and I don't like the idea of swapping brakes for track days, but I need something that'll take the heat and have the initial bite and feel of the Hawk HP+. Noise isn't really an issue - I don't mind sounding like a bus - but quieter is still better.
Pic for views:


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## Racer_X (Jul 14, 2002)

*Re: ARRRGH!!!! Effing Hawk pads! (trh)*

What do you have for rotors? OEM cast iron rotors? Or some kind of "Bling Bling" plated rotors? In track use (or even just plain hard use) I've seen plated rotors cause problems. The plating can come off in a shower of sparks, and it can melt and accumulate on the brake pads. I've even seen a wheel fire where plated rotors were used with magnesium alloy wheels. The guy was throwing sparks like mad for the first few laps, then there was this really bright, really hot fire in his left front wheel. It was the wheel itself that was burning. Messed the car up really bad, too. I generally recommend plain stock or OEM replacement rotors if your going to be driving hard on a race track.
Also, what do you have for wheels? Stock or aftermarket? Steel or alloy? Good airflow with open spoke pattern? Or nearly solid?


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## dcomiskey (Mar 13, 2002)

*Re: ARRRGH!!!! Effing Hawk pads! (trh)*

Wow, you cooked the HP+? I've had the HPS for street use and track events and they hold up exceptionally well. This sounds like a freak incident, IMO.


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## MikekiM (Aug 21, 2001)

I'd recommend looking into the Carbotech Panther Plus.
They're a good track pad, reasonable street pad. Excellent bite but a bit noisy and dusty.
I ran them at Dubwars last year with excellent results, even in the 90+ temps.


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## trh (May 30, 2002)

*Re: (MikekiM)*

I have plain old rotors, not OEM, but not plated or anything. They're Sebro I think. I have BBS CHs, and they're fairly open spoke. As far as I can tell, I'm not doing anything wrong. There's obviously doing something wrong here, however, since I've cooked a few sets now.
I'm not familiar with Carbotech Panther Plus, are they expensive?


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## MikekiM (Aug 21, 2001)

All good quality pads will cost you a bit. But worth it in the long run to avoid agravation of replacing them.
Check with carbotecheng.com for info, or check purems.com . They both offer them.


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## trh (May 30, 2002)

*Re: (MikekiM)*

Cooked another set of HP+s a couple of weeks ago. I'm trying Hawk Blues next.


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## Racer_X (Jul 14, 2002)

*Re: (trh)*

I'm sorry to hear you're having more problems.
What car is this on? A4 Golf or A4 Jetta? Or something older? Are you cooking the fronts? The rears? Or all 4 corners?


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: ARRRGH!!!! Effing Hawk pads! (trh)*

When you say "cooked", do you mean you had pad fade, you wore through them completely, or something else?


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## Stewz-GTI (Feb 16, 1999)

You need to upgrade your rotors, not the pads. The rotors slotted or drilled or both with disapate the heat and you won't get the fade that you are exeriencing.
As you saw at the track, the ECS rotors I have do just that, and I use Hawk HPS pads. Zero fade.


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## TurboGTI2003 (Apr 29, 2004)

*Re: (Stewz-GTI)*

Interesting, I was going to order hawk hp+ pads and run them with stock rotors. So is it a no-no because rotors heat up too much from the race pads or pads heat up from the stock rotors ?


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## Racer_X (Jul 14, 2002)

*Re: (TurboGTI2003)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TurboGTI2003* »_Interesting, I was going to order hawk hp+ pads and run them with stock rotors. So is it a no-no because rotors heat up too much from the race pads or pads heat up from the stock rotors ?

When pads finally overheat, they produce gasses and float on the rotor like pucks on an air hockey table. What slots and holes do is give the gasses a place to escape so that most of the pad surface can still apply force to the rotor. 
When properly engineered, slotted or drilled rotors will significantly reduce fade by allowing the pads to stay in better contact with the rotors. They will also cause things to run marginally hotter because of the slight reduction in mass of the rotor. This is usually insignificant, though.
However, if the engineering behind the slots or drilling pattern isn't exactly right, drilled and/or slotted rotors can cause a lot of problems. So you have to be very careful shopping for drilled and/or slotted rotors. For slotted rotors, the ATE PowerDiscs are a pretty good design. For drilled rotors, some of the Brembos and some of the Zimmerman rotors have a good drilling pattern. I've never seen a drilled *and* slotted rotor that had both the holes and the slots anywhere close to right. Usually, both the slots and the holes are poorly placed and can cause problems.
The best thing to do is run stock rotors with pads that don't overheat when you drive. That way the pads don't gas out and you don't get compound fade (hard pedal fade). Hawk HPS are good for most street and autocross driving, but they are pretty easy to overdrive on a race track. HP+ are better, but still not full racing pads. Ferodo DS2000 are on par with the HP+. The Ferodo DS2500 are a full out racing pad that works up to about 1200F, but will also work well as cool as 150F. That's about the most exotic pad you want to run on the street. Carbotech Panther Plus are also excellent. But both the Panther Plus and the DS2500 are full race compounds and might be a bit noisey and dusty for some peoples tastes on a street driven car.
*Note:* If you want more information about what to look for in a drilled and/or slotted rotor, send me an email that says something like "I have a VW GTI (or whatever your car is) and I'm shopping for upgraded brake rotors. I'd like some information for personal use to evaluate what's available.". I don't mind sharing the information with Vortexers who are shopping for rotors. If you manufacture drilled and/or slotted rotors and want design advice or evaluations of your products, email me and we can work something out. I don' work on commercial ventures for free, though. That's also why I don't post everything about rotor designs on this forum.


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## Racewagon (Aug 22, 2001)

*Re: (Racer_X)*

My wife and I both drive at the track days we go to , sometimes putting on 200+ track miles in one day in our 337. I've had the brakes hot enough to melt the caliper dust boot, and hot enough to shatter a Zimmerman cross-drilled rotor (see below). I have sloved my brake fade issues with a few things:
1. Have adequately sized rotors- the 12.3" on my 337 are great. I did upgrade to ECS floating rotors in the stock 12.3" size because the shattered rotor spooked me a bit, and floating rotors relieve stress in the rotor hat area where I had my failure
2. Take off the front rotor shields on the inside of the rotor for better airflow (for summer/track use.
3. Lighten the car as possible. The rear seats, spare, and jack are over 120#. I also went to a lightweight battery, wheels, and the aluminum-hatted ECS rotors.
4. Good pads and fluid. For me, I use Motul 600, and bleed & flush it often. This cannot be overemphasized - racing fluid picks up moisture quickly, and needs to be bled often. For me the HP+ pads work great, even on a track known to be hard on brakes (Blackhawk Farms Raceway).
Maybe a 12.3" upgrade would be the way to go.











_Modified by Racewagon at 9:13 PM 6-15-2004_


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## TurboGTI2003 (Apr 29, 2004)

*Re: (Racewagon)*

I am going to installing hawk hp+ front and rear on stock rotors soon, we'll see how they work.


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## troze1200 (Oct 12, 2000)

my mk3 2.0 has 11.3" brembo x-drilled (cast) and slotted rotors with mintex reds. I love them, I've used hawk, ebc, and pagid. The mintex feel better, resist fade much better than the others, much much better, and i don't have dust either. They are also very managable on the street, actually they are used with the idiot ease of a stock pad.


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## Racewagon (Aug 22, 2001)

*Re: (troze1200)*


_Quote, originally posted by *troze1200* »_my mk3 2.0 has 11.3" brembo x-drilled (cast) and slotted rotors with mintex reds. I love them, I've used hawk, ebc, and pagid. The mintex feel better, resist fade much better than the others, much much better, and i don't have dust either. They are also very managable on the street, actually they are used with the idiot ease of a stock pad. 

I use Mintex Redbox on the street, but not on the track - they are not a track pad, and have been known to disintegrate and catch fire on the track.


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## Dog_Eater (May 20, 2003)

*Re: (troze1200)*


_Quote, originally posted by *troze1200* »_my mk3 2.0 has 11.3" brembo x-drilled (cast) and slotted rotors with mintex reds. I love them, I've used hawk, ebc, and pagid. The mintex feel better, resist fade much better than the others, much much better, and i don't have dust either. They are also very managable on the street, actually they are used with the idiot ease of a stock pad. 

My red mintex will fade on the street after 4 hard stops.


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## machschnellGTI (Mar 17, 2004)

*Re: (Dog_Eater)*

Have you guys tried Axxis Ultimates?


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## maxrev (Nov 20, 2000)

*Re: ARRRGH!!!! Effing Hawk pads! (trh)*

I used to ran Porterfield R4 on my stock 11.3" Vr brakes. I switched to Hawk Blues because they were slightly cheaper and they seem to be similar in performance. 
Even with Motul FBR600 fluid and R4/Blues, I will experience brake fade at the track after 6 hard "time attack" laps.


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