# Your Haldex Works Powertrak Insert: Review



## LF_gottron (Jan 24, 2013)

Hey guys theres been a few threads on this topic so i teamed up with Your Haldex Works and picked up one of these!

Your Haldex Works has a few products out and specialize in first Gen. Haldex systems. The good news for us is that categorizes MK1 TT and MK4 R32.

Many of you know of HPA's Blue and Orange Haldex system, however they stopped making these years ago and now go for $1000-2000 used on the forums. These Haldex systems give the car up to 50/50 power distribution for the AWD. Our stock system can only go from 90/10 to 70/30 (to my understanding). 
The Powertrak insert modifies the Haldex system to be 50/50 power distribution all the time and at an affordable price! 



*Well installed it 9/10/2013

First off super easy to install. Put the car on a lift, got a short 17mm wrench, spun the old one off (no fluid came out) and then threw the new one in. that it.

First impression, love it. I used to feel the rear kick in on launch's and when cornering, now its always engaged and definitely noticeable. Not much to say, does the job. As for some people saying it would bind, it does not. I did full luck turns both directions forward and backward at low speeds and went in full circles and felt/heard nothing! Very excited about this product. Highly recommend, especially for the price!!*






New bolt (17mm style)


Untitled by adamgott21, on Flickr


Untitled by adamgott21, on Flickr


Old bolt


Untitled by adamgott21, on Flickr


Untitled by adamgott21, on Flickr


Heres some links to *Your Haldex Works *
[email protected]
Facebook Page
Youtube Videos
Store


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## LF_gottron (Jan 24, 2013)

*Copy and Pasted content from them!*

The Powertrack Insert is a new product in the Quattro / 4motions and other brand names of the Haldex LSC AWD first / second generation system world. Powertrack Insert delivers the most rear traction possible of ALL the products available on the market at a fraction of the cost.

How it works: Powertrack Insert changes the tune of the hydraulic system to increase the power delivered to the Haldex clutch instantly. The result is an instant response of the rear traction with a power distribution of 50/50. With Powertrack Insert you get the fastest reaction and strongest rear traction available. Improvements are especially great for modified high powered cars but also for stock cars. Fastest delivery high pressure also reduces clutch wear by limiting clutch slip and low intermediate pressure situation.

While drastically improving snow traction, loose surface traction and launch from stop, it remains smooth enough to be used on a daily drive vehicle and will go unnoticeable on most of the low speed situation like parking or tight turn. Electronic features of your car like: ESP/Traction control and ABS will work as long you don’t disengage it. The Powertrack Insert is also completely reversible, just reinstall your original insert and you are back to stock.

Powertrack Insert installs in about one hour and you don’t have to refill or change Haldex fluid. (While being a good idea if your car is due for maintenance)


* Powertrack Insert can be installed on any OEM controller. Two kind of insert models exist and both are available. Be sure to use the appropriate one. Visit our Youtube channel, a “How to identify the right insert for your car/controller model” video is there to help you. This listing is for the 17 mm hex head, circlip model is also available.

* Powertrack Insert can be also used on an aftermarket controller: If you already have an aftermarket controller, you can still use our product as long you have the appropriate insert type. Therefore you won’t benefit from the variable delivered rear torque provided by your aftermarket controller anymore as it will work exactly like an OEM unit upgraded with the Powertrack Insert.*Powertrack Insert will make a rear axle swap working without the need of electronics. Powertrack Insert can make a rear Haldex LSC work as a “mechanical stand alone” on a car that wasn’t designed to work with the rear Haldex. Contact us if you are doing that kind of project and we will tell you how to easily wire your electronics and enable to select a front/rear 50/50 traction or FWD traction just by the flick of an ON/OFF switch.


We invite you to visit our facebook page and to like it! Lots of questions have been answered there. Also a couple of link to independent customers testimonies.

To see the behaviors of the Powertrack Insert, just type his name on Youtube to see our various videos.


Will fit on all car models that was equipped with the Haldex LSC first / second generation, be sure to use the right insert:

Audi TT Quattro first generation (1998-2006)

Audi A3/S3 Quattro (1999-2003)

Volkswagen R32 MkIV and MkV (2002,2003-2009)

Volkswagen MkIV Bora/Jetta/Golf 4motion

Volkswagen Sharan first gen

Volvo: all models with first generation Haldex

Skoda Octavia: first generation

Seat Leon / Cupra 4: first generation


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Let us know how bad the skipping and binding is at low speed turns with high steering angle.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Let us know how bad the skipping and binding is at low speed turns with high steering angle.


That's what I'm worried about. I get binding and skipping in the rear at tight angles. This would probably make it worse.


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Watching… if these actually work properly I'll happily buy one for the Haldex swap I'm slowly working at.

Why hasn't Gonzo cracked the controller yet?!


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## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

Send me a stock and modified controller and I'll make it happen


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

JohnnyAlpaca said:


> Send me a stock and modified controller and I'll make it happen


I'm on board, stock controller/test mule will come from me! Now, who wants to lend their remapped controllers for the greater goods? A Blue-labeled and Competition unit would be nice so we can maybe have a hybrid version with rear engagement under braking but less aggressive lock characteristic at low speed.

Let's make this happen TT community!


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I'm on board, stock controller/test mule will come from me! Now, who's wants to lend their remapped controllers for the greater goods? A Blue-labeled and Competition unit would be nice so we can maybe have a hybrid version with rear engagement under braking but less aggressive lock characteristic at low speed.
> 
> Let's make this happen TT community!


The solution is in the past Max :thumbup: If I can get it all together this winter, I'll be selling a competition controller


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

DeckManDubs said:


> *The solution* is in the past Max :thumbup: If I can get it all together this winter, I'll be selling a competition controller


What is it Noah?


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> What is it Noah?


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## max13b2 (Jul 24, 2007)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I'm on board, stock controller/test mule will come from me! Now, who's wants to lend their remapped controllers for the greater goods? A Blue-labeled and Competition unit would be nice so we can maybe have a hybrid version with rear engagement under braking but less aggressive lock characteristic at low speed.
> 
> Let's make this happen TT community!


opcorn: Patiently waiting on this to come to fruition... (well, this AND aftermarket Votex side skirts....)


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## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> What is it Noah?


Syncro rear axle (for those who can't tell from the labeled diagram)


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

I like this thread and where its going. ibf the stacecar why do you care you dont drive your car bs. Subterranean TT's can still benefit:laugh:


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## Bago47 (Jul 26, 2012)

I believe OP is wrong, OEM system can distribute as much as 0/100 torque to the rear wheels - that happens if both of the front wheels loose traction. Otherwise, 50/50 under hard acceleration or cornering and 90/10 most of the time.


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

No, the op and the product description was correct. 

As for skipping when turning, wouldn't that only be an issue when the haldex is engaged? This piece doesn't affect the speed or HOW AND WHEN the haldex engages..... It simply always locks 50/50 when the haldex IS engaged, which would only be under hard acceleration and cornering. Meaning it would behave as oem under low speed cruising and whatnot. That's how I understood it anyway...


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## FatAce (Jan 30, 2012)

max13b2 said:


> opcorn: Patiently waiting on this to come to fruition... (well, this AND aftermarket Votex side skirts....)


and a 3.2 bumper. and new headlight lenses.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

barelyboosting1.8t said:


> No, the op and the product description was correct.
> 
> As for skipping when turning, wouldn't that only be an issue when the haldex is engaged? This piece doesn't affect the speed or HOW AND WHEN the haldex engages..... It simply always locks 50/50 when the haldex IS engaged, which would only be under hard acceleration and cornering. Meaning it would behave as oem under low speed cruising and whatnot. That's how I understood it anyway...


That's how I took it, which would eliminate the need for upgraded controllers (for most people), though I like the idea of hacking and reprogramming controllers. Why HPA and the others can't reflash a used controller is beyond stupid.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

barelyboosting1.8t said:


> No, the op and the product description was correct.
> 
> As for skipping when turning, wouldn't that only be an issue when the haldex is engaged? This piece doesn't affect the speed or HOW AND WHEN the haldex engages..... It simply always locks 50/50 when the haldex IS engaged, which would only be under hard acceleration and cornering. Meaning it would behave as oem under low speed cruising and whatnot. That's how I understood it anyway...





20v master said:


> That's how I took it, which would eliminate the need for upgraded controllers (for most people), though I like the idea of hacking and reprogramming controllers. Why HPA and the others can't reflash a used controller is beyond stupid.


This plug essentially is bypassing the internal valving on the haldex controller. So whenever the pump is running, the clutch plates are locked.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

DeckManDubs said:


> This plug essentially is bypassing the internal valving on the haldex controller. So whenever the pump is running, the clutch plates are locked.


Ding ding ding! That's why I sarcastically asked him to report on the low speed binding/skipping that is inevitable with the modified plug. I wouldn't want my discs to be constantly engaged (although that means less slipping and possibly longer fluid change intervals), and I don't know why anyone would want that for their Haldex units (unless using this only temporarily for some off/road, drag, or circuit racing).


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Ding ding ding! That's why I sarcastically asked him to report on the low speed binding/skipping that is inevitable with the modified plug. I wouldn't want my discs to be constantly engaged (although that means less slipping and possibly longer fluid change intervals), and I don't know why anyone would want that for their Haldex units (unless using this only temporarily for some off/road, drag, or circuit racing).


The system is pretty simple, expensive, but not overly complex. Now this mod is more like using a 5lb hammer on your "on switch" to get your computer to turn on.

In short, if you do not understand the basic functions of how it works....Do not touch it or assume that everything you read on the internet is true.


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Ding ding ding! That's why I sarcastically asked him to report on the low speed binding/skipping that is inevitable with the modified plug. I wouldn't want my discs to be constantly engaged (although that means less slipping and possibly longer fluid change intervals), and I don't know why anyone would want that for their Haldex units (unless using this only temporarily for some off/road, drag, or circuit racing).


Doesn't the pump only run when haldex is engaged, though? How low of a speed and tps does haldex engage?


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

barelyboosting1.8t said:


> Doesn't the pump only run when haldex is engaged, though? How low of a speed and tps does haldex engage?


The pump is fed power as soon as engine speed exceeds 400 rpms, so any time the engine is running.


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## barelyboosting1.8t (Nov 18, 2002)

Ahhhhh....... I see. Well, then yes....this would be nothing more than a spool with expensive, breakable internals. Lol. I'm more interested in the adaptation of the synchro setup. Where can I find more info on that and has anyone done it yet??


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

I'm quietly excited for the syncro experiement, to think a Haldex is considered an upgrade otherwise :laugh:


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## LF_gottron (Jan 24, 2013)

INSTALLED, look back at first post


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

I need to dive into that self study PDF about the Haldex. You're saying it doesn't bind, which means its not locked. That tells me this isn't locked all the time, but rather locked at 50/50 WHEN there is slip. If both those parts are true, win win!


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> I need to dive into that self study PDF about the Haldex. You're saying it doesn't bind, which means its not locked. That tells me this isn't locked all the time, but rather locked at 50/50 WHEN there is slip. If both those parts are true, win win!


The controllers (stock or not) never took care of the locking as I understand it (I could be off). The pumps (as there are two) prime and provide pressure in the system. While the controllers (stock or with modified mapping), or these mechanical plugs simply control a bypass hole (pressure relief hole to be exact). By allowing more fluid volume to bypass the system, you get less fluid pressure and disc locking - conversely, by allowing less fluid to bypass the system, the pressure is higher and there is more locking. The mapping provides the intelligence and control the ramping rate of that pressure bypass and when it's needed. 

This restricting plug just permanently allow less fluid to escape, so more pressure is built and there is more locking. This completely removes the intelligence and sophistication of the system because it can no longer adapt to the ever changing conditions and what they require (might as well go back in time with the all mechanical Quattro setups). Say, you needed full pressure at WOT before a turn, and suddenly started your turn-in with this restricting plug, the system can't release the pressure rapidly anymore, and you're stuck with full engagement when it's detrimental to the the new dynamics. 

As far as not creating biding at low speed, I am still skeptical. If there was not a lot of fluid pressure, and you try turning at low speed, the biding will not exist (this is why all the competition users get the biding intermittently, depending of the previous state). Come from a condition where there was high front slip angle differential, and lots of pressure in the system, then transition to a low speed turn and you skip like a 4WD because of the high disc lock up. Naturally, if the amount of additional restriction provided by this modified plug is enough to provide full rear lock (or fluid pressure), it can't physically allow pressure to bleed fast enough to prevent the dreaded 4x4 mode in the next sequence.

I'm not the one to argue people's experiences when I have not tried it myself. So, I'll get one to see what it does (or not). Thank you for trying it and sharing your experiences OP! :thumbup:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

This other mechanical fluid restrictor from SQS does basically the same thing (with some minor differences) and can help understand/visualize the process better. The difference with the SQS units is that they allow adjustability to the restrictor instead of being a constant flow restrictor as the plug discussed here. Say someone needed to do a drag race, go full restriction (like the plug provides) and allow full lock to the system since you don't have to turn. Say you wanted to autocross, road race, mountain carving, which includes lots of steering inputs, just dial the knob so there is just enough restriction to not overly preload the system for the specific conditions. I bet the company or someone like Noah can machine a few plugs with various levels of restriction and label/market them as drag/road race/autocross/street etc. (the damn things only adds more or less restriction to a fluid bypass hole and are not rocket science). 

http://www.sqsracing.com/files/fs_files/productdetails/406/assembly-manual-mhr-mhrb_47.pdf


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## tedgram (Jul 2, 2005)

opcorn:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

So yes, this takes the "intelligence" out of the controls, and makes it 50/50 with any slip/wheel speed difference. The downside is it can't bleed off pressure fast enough to unlock in conditions where 50/50 lock would be undesireable. So it's ~sort of an upgrade, IF you don't mind the downsides. I would think this wouldn't even be that great for drag racing, as you don't need 50/50 lock past the 1/8th mile even with BIG power, and that's just more drivetrain loss at that point. I don't know, I've got so much to do that I won't be at a point of needing this for ~6 months and I picked up an old but NIB orange controller recently anyways. Max, we'll be waiting on your testing on the cone course.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

SQS has a electronic version of there manual device (like this one) that allows the quick release of pressure to prevent the binding.

http://www.sqsracing.com/produkt/314:407:haldex-regulator-controler-valve

I have heard YHW is also working on a similar module.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

20v master said:


> Max, we'll be waiting on your testing on the cone course.


This haha. As great of an Idea as it seems I'm seeing more downsides from it:sly:


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

PLAYED TT said:


> This haha. As great of an Idea as it seems I'm seeing more downsides from it:sly:


That is why not only track testing is needed, but long term testing to see how it gets along with other components. I would venture to say a solid 20k-40k of street miles would be a good long term test to see how it gets along with the clutch packs/bearings/any possible heat issues.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

DeckManDubs said:


> That is why not only track testing is needed, but long term testing to see how it gets along with other components. I would venture to say a solid 20k-40k of street miles would be a good long term test to see how it gets along with the clutch packs/bearings/any possible heat issues.


For some reason Noah, I don't see it being an issue for other components and longevity. It's a rather crude and simplistic device and all they do it create a fluid bypass restriction. Having the extra fluid pressure and the wet discs engaged longer can be seen as a good thing for fluid and surface wear. Think about if you were to drive 30k miles with your clutch engaged in one gear vs 30k miles of constant slipping and engagement (heat and wear). The 30k in one gear would be a lot less taxing. This is kind of a similar system in function, being a wet clutch system. Fluid is always moving through, and the more fluid pressure variation there is, the more heat and wear is generated. This restrictors reduce the constant disc slippage and may not be as bad for wear as intuition would dictate. My 2 cents! :beer:


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> For some reason Noah, I don't see it being an issue for other components and longevity. It's a rather crude and simplistic device and all they do it create a fluid bypass restriction. Having the extra fluid pressure and the wet discs engaged longer can be seen as a good thing for fluid and surface wear. Think about if you were to drive 30k miles with your clutch engaged in one gear vs 30k miles of constant slipping and engagement (heat and wear). The 30k in one gear would be a lot less taxing. This is kind of a similar system in function, being a wet clutch system. Fluid is always moving through, and the more fluid pressure variation there is, the more heat and wear is generated. This restrictors reduce the constant disc slippage and may not be as bad for wear as intuition would dictate. My 2 cents! :beer:


Agreed. However, seeing as it acts like a Competition controller which also increases the clamp pressure and maintains it under pretty much all situations. The clutch packs are known to wear out faster. The molybdenum/beryllium coatings do take heat very well which are what a lot of these wet clutch setups use. 

I am not saying it wont be a solution, but I know since I have installed the Competition controller that rear tire wear is much greater than prior. The stickier the tires, the more binding that you have with the pressure stuck in the "high" position. 

I would like to see this work well. Some long term testing is always a good thing for new components. I would suggest that in this test, the haldex fluid be fresh when the install takes place. Then swapped out at say 3000 miles and tested. Then run fresh fluid for 6000 miles and compare the particle % to the 3000 mile test. And keep doing so until the "sweet spot" is found.


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## LF_gottron (Jan 24, 2013)

DeckManDubs said:


> Agreed. However, seeing as it acts like a Competition controller which also increases the clamp pressure and maintains it under pretty much all situations. The clutch packs are known to wear out faster. The molybdenum/beryllium coatings do take heat very well which are what a lot of these wet clutch setups use.
> 
> I am not saying it wont be a solution, but I know since I have installed the Competition controller that rear tire wear is much greater than prior. The stickier the tires, the more binding that you have with the pressure stuck in the "high" position.
> 
> I would like to see this work well. Some long term testing is always a good thing for new components. I would suggest that in this test, the haldex fluid be fresh when the install takes place. Then swapped out at say 3000 miles and tested. Then run fresh fluid for 6000 miles and compare the particle % to the 3000 mile test. And keep doing so until the "sweet spot" is found.


great idea, i actually just changed fluid and filter less than a month ago so i can change the fluid again soon and post up some info


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

LF_gottron said:


> great idea, i actually just changed fluid and filter less than a month ago so i can change the fluid again soon and post up some info


http://www.blackstone-labs.com/


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

DeckManDubs said:


> Agreed. However, seeing as it acts like a Competition controller which also increases the clamp pressure and maintains it under pretty much all situations.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Orange/Competition controllers act similar to OEM except they are more aggressive in application of rear power in that they attempt to anticipate instead of detecting slip then applying power? I know they go to 50/50 under any WOT input, but what about the rest of operation? Aren't they varying in power application at less than WOT high load situation? If so, that would increase disc wear like Max is saying by varying the clamping and allowing a percentage of slip there. If all it does is go from 90/10 directly to 50/50 when it deems more power to the rear is needed with no application between those two levels, then the Orange/Competition is doing the exact same thing as this insert.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

As I understood.

Blue, disconnects during deccel

Orange doesn't.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Orange/Competition controllers act similar to OEM except they are more aggressive in application of rear power in that they attempt to anticipate instead of detecting slip then applying power? I know they go to 50/50 under any WOT input, but what about the rest of operation? Aren't they varying in power application at less than WOT high load situation? If so, that would increase disc wear like Max is saying by varying the clamping and allowing a percentage of slip there. If all it does is go from 90/10 directly to 50/50 when it deems more power to the rear is needed with no application between those two levels, then the Orange/Competition is doing the exact same thing as this insert.


The blue controllers are identical to stock except for the mapping. The orange/competition ones are "mechanically modified internally" and they never revealed in what way (we all know that they likely just modified the fluid restriction through the plug just like everyone else). In essence, you are correct, the orange unit is like the insert (except from the different mapping) and should (in theory) have on/off operation and go 90/10 to 50/50 due to the rectriction modification. What is unknown is if they are as aggressive as the insert we're looking at, or left some acceptable margin for bypass and reaction to make the system react quicker. What would be an interesting find is to know if the new insert is more, equal, or less of a restrictor than what is done to the competition units. Could you remove the plug on your orange controller and snap some pics?



ejg3855 said:


> As I understood.
> 
> Blue, disconnects during deccel
> 
> Orange doesn't.


That's correct, but that is all through the mapping and has nothing to do with the fluid bypass restriction discussed here. The orange/competition also have a much more aggressive reaction rate from detected slip through it's programming.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

It would be cool if this "plug" would actually allow you to go 50/50 without the drawbacks.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> What would be an interesting find is to know if the new insert is more, equal, or less of a restrictor than what is done to the competition units. Could you remove the plug on your orange controller and snap some pics?


Indeed, I can. It'll be a few weeks.


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## LF_gottron (Jan 24, 2013)

New article they just released!
Btw its been a couple weeks now and still working amazingly! :thumbup:
http://audittrs.wordpress.com/2013/...mprove-your-haldex-first-generation-traction/


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

That post lost me at "hey peeps" and "bather" :laugh:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

LF_gottron said:


> New article they just released!
> Btw its been a couple weeks now and still working amazingly! :thumbup:


So no binding at all?


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## G'D60 (Mar 11, 2002)

I'd love to hear what HPA has to say about all of this. Has anyone ever seen a reply, rebuttal from them? Or do they know someone else may have created a better mouse trap?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> So no binding at all?


Curious too!


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

l88m22vette said:


> That post lost me at "hey peeps" and "bather" :laugh:


Really? I stopped at the title :laugh:


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

PLAYED TT said:


> Really? I stopped at the title :laugh:


lol, I didnt even click the link :laugh:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

warranty225cpe said:


> lol, I didnt even click the link :laugh:


C'mon guys, the chart is the best part! :laugh:


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## LF_gottron (Jan 24, 2013)

20v master said:


> So no binding at all?


nope nothing


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> C'mon guys, the chart is the best part! :laugh:


Hard launch says 50/50 on the stock controller. I'm happy with that


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

l88m22vette said:


> That post lost me at "hey peeps" and "bather" :laugh:


I just read it. And almost stopped after I got that far. You would think a "technical review" would get spell checked.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> C'mon guys, the chart is the best part! :laugh:


The hand brake piece proves my suspicions 

Still only a $25 bolt :screwy:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

With my car out of commission for a little bit, I've been looking into ways to modify/upgrade my stock haldex system. looking at the Haldex PDF, if the modified plug idea is done just right it could be a viable way of getting improved AWD characteristics even with stock mapping.

I think of it (modified bypass plug) as a possible static pressure preload for the system, and when the dynamic motorized pin, or regulating valve as they call it (controlled by mapping) does what it's suppose to do, the effect is amplified because there was already some static pressure built. Now the big question is if the boys at powertrack did their homework and machined the extended pill to still allow some bypass in needed conditions (low speed maneuvers, moderate-to-high speed cruise etc.). Their awkward ways of describing the operation of their modified plug suggests that it restricts the fluid bypass completely at all situations. When they say things like "it gives 50/50 locking to cars with a haldex swap" with no input to control the motorized restriction, or the stupid chart that shows 50/50 locking in all situations, it's hard to assume that they didn't just totally restrict the fluid bypass. 

Anyway, I ordered one that should be here this week and will test and modify it appropriately if needed (let's just hope they did their homework and it's just their description of the product that's not right).

I also understand that most people don't fully comprehend how the control system works because of the lack of open data and the amount on components that makes it happen, but it's rather simple. This video from skullies over the pond shows the motorized fluid bypass restrictor pin and help visualize how pressure is provided to engage the clutches and lock the rear end:

http://s1253.photobucket.com/user/Scullies/media/clipnomusic1.mp4.html

The picture below from the gen1 Haldex PDF shows how the restriction provided by that dynamic pin allow/restric fluid pressure to the clutches. As I explained before in this thread, it simply controls the amount fuid allowed to bypass the system and that's how the appropriate pressure is achieved according to the conditions. If you look at where the stock plug is placed, you can also picture what happens by adding a restricting pin to the plug (like the powertrack). Make it too long and it'll completely close the fluid bypass regardless of the motorized pin position (not smart). Make it just right and there still some bypass happening and the motorized pin is still allowed to function but in a boosted state (clever). 

Pay close attention to the magnifications on lower left. They show the stock plug, the bypass chamber, and the effects of the motorized pin at 3 states (there is also everything in between that's not illustrated)


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> With my car out of commission for a little bit, I've been looking into ways to modify/upgrade my stock haldex system. looking at the Haldex PDF, if the modified plug idea is done just right it could be a viable way of getting improved AWD characteristics even with stock mapping.
> 
> I think of it (modified bypass plug) as a possible static pressure preload for the system, and when the dynamic motorized pin, or regulating valve as they call it (controlled by mapping) does what it's suppose to do, the effect is amplified because there was already some static pressure built. Now the big question is if the boys at powertrack did their homework and machined the extended pill to still allow some bypass in needed conditions (low speed maneuvers, moderate-to-high speed cruise etc.). Their awkward ways of describing the operation of their modified plug suggests that it restricts the fluid bypass completely at all situations. When they say things like "it gives 50/50 locking to cars with a haldex swap" with no input to control the motorized restriction, or the stupid chart that shows 50/50 locking in all situations, it's hard to assume that they didn't just totally restrict the fluid bypass.
> 
> Anyway, I ordered one that should be here this week and will test and modify it appropriately if needed (let's just hope they did their homework and it's just their description of the product that's not right).


opcorn:


----------



## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

:thumbup:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> With my car out of commission for a little bit, I've been looking into ways to modify/upgrade my stock haldex system. looking at the Haldex PDF, if the modified plug idea is done just right it could be a viable way of getting improved AWD characteristics even with stock mapping.


Are you/we/us still interested in getting ahold of the mapping inside an Orange/Competition controller? Hit me up if so, as I have the Orange that isn't being used (yet). :beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> Are you/we/us still interested in getting ahold of the mapping inside an Orange/Competition controller? Hit me up if so, as I have the Orange that isn't being used (yet). :beer:


Yes we are! I also want to find out and measure if they did any modification to the bolt/plug on the orange/competition. Supposedly there are internal modifications with the orange/competition, and if it's the bolt I'm curious to see the difference between that and the extended pin on the powertrack bolt.

PS: text coming your way!


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Yes we are! I also want to find out and measure if they did any modification to the bolt/plug on the orange/competition. Supposedly there are internal modifications with the orange/competition, and if it's the bolt I'm curious to see the difference between that and the extended pin on the powertrack bolt.
> 
> PS: text coming your way!


Good stuff:thumbup:


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

20v master said:


> Are you/we/us still interested in getting ahold of the mapping inside an Orange/Competition controller? Hit me up if so, as I have the Orange that isn't being used (yet). :beer:





Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Yes we are! I also want to find out and measure if they did any modification to the bolt/plug on the orange/competition. Supposedly there are internal modifications with the orange/competition, and if it's the bolt I'm curious to see the difference between that and the extended pin on the powertrack bolt.
> 
> PS: text coming your way!




Sweet - can't wait to hear/see the results :beer:


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## jacobm (Aug 5, 2011)

Max is delving head first into a better solution for our haldex systems. Christmas has truly come early. :laugh: Can't wait to see what you come up with. Keep up the good work :beer:


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## JasonCornett_1 (Oct 27, 2013)

This is some exciting stuff indeed, I would love to contribute in any way possible.

If I can get my hands on one of the Magic Bolts I would definitely do all of the necessary practical testing that everyone is so interested in and put together a nice write up with all of the findings.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

I think Max is already on top of the testing:beer:


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## LF_gottron (Jan 24, 2013)

im still testing this product haha got a couple thousand miles on it with no problems still


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## JasonCornett_1 (Oct 27, 2013)

Man, if that isn't exciting, then I don't know what is. So how would you describe the difference from before the magical plug and after. Are you tuned etc?

BTW, I am new to the forums, but not to VAG my previous car was a B5 S4, and now I have a 2002 225 ALMS soon to be stage 2.


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

warranty225cpe said:


> That's what I'm worried about. I get binding and skipping in the rear at tight angles. This would probably make it worse.


I have addressed this by adding friction modifier that is designed for use in limited slip differentials. It is sold under the Mopar, Amsoil, and many other brand names. You may have to, as I did, experiment with how much to add until the friction plates no longer bind when making tight circles in a parking lot. Note also that the binding loosens up as the operating temperature of the oil increases. I know the Haldex has a temp sensor, so I don't know if the amount of lock-up is processor controlled, or whether it is simply a characteristic of the oil, or whether it has something to do with the tolerances once the unit has warmed up.


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Guys, just to add my 2c in the mix.
I run orange/performance controller and i was experiancing skip and hop and decided to try and find a way round it.
The cause of the hopping/skip is due to differences in the rolling radius of the wheels when on the turn, so, by parking the car on the flat and making marks on the tyres of one side of the TT at 6 o/clock, i rolled the car forward 10 revolutions of the wheels and checked the markings on the tyres..mmmmmm
The front tyre marking was at approx 4 o/clock and the rear at 6 o/clock which equates to 60 degrees divided by 10 = 6 degree error.
My tyre pressures were set to 32 front and 32 rear.
By adjusting tyre pressures and retesting the real world rolling radius test, ive come up with a rolling radius match of better than 1 degree per revolution error.
My tyre size is 225 x 40 x 18 front and 255 x 35 x 18 rear and although staggered are a reasonable match on the calculator, however when on the ground the heavier front end will squash on the fronts more than the back, so to compensate i now have 34 psi front and 32 psi rear. 
Different tyre make and specification will affect rolling radius.
I have not experianced any skipping or hopping since ive balanced my RR out.
Im under the impression that a tolerance of 4% RR difference is allowed for OEM and Blue Haldex, however i think that components that have created a 50/50 AWD should have tighter RR tolerances.
Just my 2c worth.
Steve


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

sTT eV6 said:


> Guys, just to add my 2c in the mix.
> I run orange/performance controller and i was experiancing skip and hop and decided to try and find a way round it.
> The cause of the hopping/skip is due to differences in the rolling radius of the wheels when on the turn, so, by parking the car on the flat and making marks on the tyres of one side of the TT at 6 o/clock, i rolled the car forward 10 revolutions of the wheels and checked the markings on the tyres..mmmmmm
> The front tyre marking was at approx 4 o/clock and the rear at 6 o/clock which equates to 60 degrees divided by 10 = 6 degree error.
> ...


Valuable input Steve! :beer:

As for the testing, I have the modified plug in my possession and will have my controller out this weekend for measurements. I will also report on the differences with this particular restricting plug between stock, orange and powertrack unit.


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Would be interesting to see other peeps RR results in the rear world.
Steve


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

I got a chance to pull my stock haldex controller and see what we're dealing with adding restriction via the Powertrack modified plug approach.


As suspected, the PT insert fully restricts bypass in 99.9% of conditions. This allows the rear diff to remain engaged on most situations at a 50/50 ratio.


This may be good or ideal for some, and not so much for others. Each person would need to decide what they want for their cars if going with this method of adding rear lock.


This is what I did, and it's for my car and the use I have for it. I measured the distance from the top of the plug and the opening of the bypass chamber holes (scattered around the chamber above the return bore). Then compared that measurement with the length of the added restricting pin on the PT insert. This lead me to the conclusion that there is too much restriction, and although it's an improvement over stock in certain situations, it's also a downgrade in conditions where limited rear engagement would be beneficial (the added pin is resting right on top of the fluid return bore, which is too much IMO). 


I then decided to shave some of the pin to allow some reduced amount of bypass. I will test it to see if it's too much and remove more accordingly. (I purposely didn't post any measurements, and will wait until I get some good testing done on the car to find a sweet spot for what I think is an acceptable compromise). 


Haldex controller regulating valve open with the stock plug removed:


















How I got to measure the stroke of the motorized pin:










Bypass chamber length marked:










Comparison between chamber length and added pin restriction on PT insert:










Measuring and marking distance from return bore opening to the top of the bypass chamber:


















Comparison pic after my first round of shaving on the insert extended pin (you can see that some limited bypass would be allowed vs the return bore measured distance):


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Nice work so far.
Would be interesting to see an adjustable length centre pin, like a bolt in a bolt.
Steve


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## Foolee (Mar 23, 2013)

sTT eV6 said:


> Nice work so far.
> Would be interesting to see an adjustable length centre pin, like a bolt in a bolt.
> Steve


http://www.sqsracing.com/produkt/314:406:haldex-regulator-controler-valve










Something like that? For $100 I'm tempted to pick this thing up once my TT is running again. I was going to get a blue/orange/HPA MS controller but apparently they are out of production?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

sTT eV6 said:


> Nice work so far.
> Would be interesting to see an adjustable length centre pin, like a bolt in a bolt.
> Steve





Foolee said:


> http://www.sqsracing.com/produkt/314:406:haldex-regulator-controler-valve
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I totally agree guys, the adjustable SQS restrictor (which has been around forever) would be much better as it would allow to fine tune the sweet spot for the application and conditions of use. I guess the community is looking for more affordable and readily available solutions to improve the Haldex coupling. 

This also gave me an idea. Instead of fiddling with the Powertrack pin to find a good all around compromise to restrict fluid bypass, I'm going to get the all-mechanical SQS unit to facilitate the testing. Once the various length of pin restriction is tested and sweet spot is found, I'll measure it and post how much to remove off of the powertrack insert as a cheap DIY solution. 

PS: I'm also working with a few people on other alternative solutions to the problem, so stay tuned!


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## Foolee (Mar 23, 2013)

It's to bad we cannot reprogram the stock controller. If we could find a way to flash the stock controller that would be by far the cheapest option. It's possible, HPA Motorsport had there own controller.


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## Foolee (Mar 23, 2013)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3959804-Haldex-flash/page4

Interesting thread it looks like the MKIV R32 guys have been looking into reprogramming.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

why not shave the OD of the pin instead of the length??


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Foolee said:


> It's to bad we cannot reprogram the stock controller. If we could find a way to flash the stock controller that would be by far the cheapest option. It's possible, HPA Motorsport had there own controller.


I'm working with someone with the capability and knowledge to communicate, read, define, and reflash the stock software. It will take a while as communicating/reading is the easy part; making proper definition, identifying the required modification, and finally flashing without the risk of checksum and other possible safeguards stepping in, is much harder. 



Foolee said:


> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3959804-Haldex-flash/page4
> 
> Interesting thread it looks like the MKIV R32 guys have been looking into reprogramming.


I might try to PM the guy that was able to communicate with the haldex computer and see if he want to help and/or join forces, at the end this is to the benefit of both communities. Thanks for the link! :beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Foolee said:


> It's to bad we cannot reprogram the stock controller. If we could find a way to flash the stock controller that would be by far the cheapest option. It's possible, HPA Motorsport had there own controller.





speed51133! said:


> why not shave the OD of the pin instead of the length??


I believed it would achieve the same end result when I looked at it with the open controller. Since putting the pin under my drill press with an end mill is much easier to do, I did it that way (easier for me then having the pin turned on a lathe). Do you think it's better one way or another?


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Well I was busy all weekend and missed the developments here. Max, are you still wanting to see what the insert looks like in the Orange controllers? I didn't make it over to that shop this weekend, but I did get Haldex working again in my daily car with a new controller.  I can stop by one afternoon this week, pop out the insert, and take a picture if you still want to compare it to the Powerpack insert and stock.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> Well I was busy all weekend and missed the developments here. Max, are you still wanting to see what the insert looks like in the Orange controllers? I didn't make it over to that shop this weekend, but I did get Haldex working again in my daily car with a new controller.  I can stop by one afternoon this week, pop out the insert, and take a picture if you still want to compare it to the Powerpack insert and stock.


Yes Adam, I still want to see if the plug was modified with the orange controllers, and if so by how much. They always said that the orange/competition controllers were modified internally, therefore it would be an interesting data point to have (if that's how they went about it). :beer:


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## Foolee (Mar 23, 2013)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I believed it would achieve the same end result when I looked at it with the open controller. Since putting the pin under my drill press with an end mill is much easier to do, I did it that way (easier for me then having the pin turned on a lathe). Do you think it's better one way or another?


I think I would rather have a stock re-flashed controller with a program like VCDS so I can modify my Haldex on the go. It would be nice to drive to the track, change a setting and make the car a 50/50 split and then be able to revert to stock setting to get 40mpg on the way home. Although if they cannot figure out how to modify the stock controller then a plug that I can bolt in seems like the next best option to me. Coding has never been my expertise but I am a Computer Engineering Technician for what it's worth. So if I can help out in some way I'm game.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Yes Adam, I still want to see if the plug was modified with the orange controllers, and if so by how much. They always said that the orange/competition controllers were modified internally, therefore it would be an interesting data point to have (if that's how they went about it). :beer:


Will post pics at some point this week(end). :thumbup:


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

With regard to the reprogramming, I started this thread a while back. 

http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=1001.0


I don't have the technical knowledge of programming, defining, reading the hex code. 

I have a spare controller we could use tho.


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## racin2redline (Sep 25, 2008)

I find it really hard to believe this haldex screw mod (essentially what it is) doesn't bind but a 1200 dollar engineered HPA orange controller does. I also call bs on anyone who has a orange controller or this mod and claims it doesn't bind at least to some extent. 

I've had a orange controller installed for 7500 miles I've ran staggered wheels (1.3%different) stock wheels and all types of combinations of pressures and they all cause the same binding action at slow speed cornering(somethings helped some didn't) In the snow or loose pavement on a tight turn I can actually watch the back inside wheel lock up the same time I feel the haldex clutch "load up " from the differences in wheel speed. The only remedy I found to deal with the binding in everyday driving was pulling the e-brake to override haldex. 
I'm pretty sure the orange controller is nearly locked at all times which gives it the "preload". The only time I think it attempts to unlock is sharp turns where your almost stopped (where the binding occurs) you can feel the drivetrain release then load up again which I believe causes the "hopping" and the dragging of the back wheel I mentioned. 
If anyone has any questions on anything I've stated I will try my best to clarify on what I'm talking about  also I am in no way bad mouthing the powertrac mod I'm just trying to contribute information.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

But did you ever try to match rolling diameters?


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## racin2redline (Sep 25, 2008)

20v master said:


> But did you ever try to match rolling diameters?


Kind of. Not like Steve did a few pages back but I figured the same tires front and rear should have nearly the same rolling diameter and I adjusted the tire pressure(mainly in the front as he stated too because the tire is more squished with the same pressure) accordingly. It still doesn't change the fact that when you corner the inside wheel spins slower than the outside wheel which is also why people say turning off ESP helps too.


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

racin2redline said:


> Kind of. Not like Steve did a few pages back but I figured the same tires front and rear should have nearly the same rolling diameter and I adjusted the tire pressure(mainly in the front as he stated too because the tire is more squished with the same pressure) accordingly. It still doesn't change the fact that when you corner the inside wheel spins slower than the outside wheel which is also why people say turning off ESP helps too.


I agree, that on the turn, especially low speed turning there is an increased chance of mis-match in the rolling radius.
The best you can do is match as closely as possible the rolling radius "in the real world test", using the guide i added earlier.
As the weather is changing in the UK i will be doing the test again as im not sure what effect colder conditions will have.

I am still "skip and bunnyhopping free" at the moment, but i am carefull during tight turns and dont apply full lock to the wheels.
Hopefully others with the Orange/Performance Controller can post up their before and after findings..
Steve


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## Rford71 (Sep 1, 2011)

sTT eV6 said:


> I agree, that on the turn, especially low speed turning there is an increased chance of mis-match in the rolling radius.
> The best you can do is match as closely as possible the rolling radius "in the real world test", using the guide i added earlier.
> As the weather is changing in the UK i will be doing the test again as im not sure what effect colder conditions will have.
> 
> ...



I can feel some binding when making tight turns with the ESP on, other than that I don't get any Bunnyhopping or things like that. I'm running same tires and wheels all the way around. Steve do you know of any haldex controller mods being use on your side of the pond?


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

would installing a LSD do anything in the rear end to prevent or make binding worse?


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## LF_gottron (Jan 24, 2013)

my esp is always turned off cause one of my sensors corroded and i dont want to fix it because i want it off. that could be the reason i dont get binding or hopping but i can assure you it doesnt bind or anything. ive tested at different ride heights at full lock at low speeds and got nothing


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I believed it would achieve the same end result when I looked at it with the open controller. Since putting the pin under my drill press with an end mill is much easier to do, I did it that way (easier for me then having the pin turned on a lathe). Do you think it's better one way or another?


i have no idea on the kind of fluid volume that passes through there. that's what i was thinking. the blunt end is restrictive for fluid to flow around.

I was thinking a taper with a ball end would be nice. just hand done with a belt sander...

probably makes no difference.


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Rford71 said:


> I can feel some binding when making tight turns with the ESP on, other than that I don't get any Bunnyhopping or things like that. I'm running same tires and wheels all the way around. Steve do you know of any haldex controller mods being use on your side of the pond?


Just cos your running same rim and tyres allround have you checked your "real world rolling radius"?
The UK boys are watching whats happening on here for updates.
We are aware of the Powertrak Insert and the SQS option.
No point getting in the way of progress as the subject is being adressed here.
Steve


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

LF_gottron said:


> my esp is always turned off cause one of my sensors corroded and i dont want to fix it because i want it off. that could be the reason i dont get binding or hopping but i can assure you it doesnt bind or anything. ive tested at different ride heights at full lock at low speeds and got nothing


Is your Haldex System actually working..
Steve


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

ejg3855 said:


> With regard to the reprogramming, I started this thread a while back.
> 
> http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=1001.0
> 
> ...


Eric, that's awesome! I am going to PM you so we can arrange the spare controller to come my way. I have another idea brewing and another spare unit would speed up the testing tremendously. I want to try changing the gearing on the motorized pin. By moving the pin up on the motor's pinion engagement, we should in theory be able to have exactly what these insert and adjustable gizmos do using what we already have. If this works, fully retracted, there would still be plenty of fluid bypass, and any programming command would be boosted in terms of achieved restriction (ultimately allowing more rear lock up). 

See below for an idea of what I want to do with the gearing. I also want to see what can be done by intercepting and modifying the electrical signal to the motor too.


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## Rford71 (Sep 1, 2011)

sTT eV6 said:


> Just cos your running same rim and tyres allround have you checked your "real world rolling radius"?
> The UK boys are watching whats happening on here for updates.
> We are aware of the Powertrak Insert and the SQS option.
> No point getting in the way of progress as the subject is being adressed here.
> Steve


I need to but I have not check "real world rolling radius". I will follow you step later this week.


Robert


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

ejg3855 said:


> would installing a LSD do anything in the rear end to prevent or make binding worse?


I think it would actually make it worse.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

sTT eV6 said:


> Is your Haldex System actually working..
> Steve


Thats a good question, I wondered the same thing too.


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I think it would actually make it worse.


+1


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## racin2redline (Sep 25, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Thats a good question, I wondered the same thing too.


Yeah if be second guessing if your system is even engaging. And max I have another stock controller you can play with if you want. It's my stock one. I'm local to you too I think.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

racin2redline said:


> Yeah if be second guessing if your system is even engaging. And max I have another stock controller you can play with if you want. It's my stock one. I'm local to you too I think.


Awesome! Yeah, we're local to each other and never got a chance to meet. I'll shoot you a PM with my info so we can make it happen. :thumbup::thumbup:


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## Teeguzi (Jul 22, 2011)

sTT eV6 said:


> +1


I might have a little useful input about the binding vs. ESP for comparison. I have a Haldex Competition controller and no ESP (never installed with recall). I definitely have slow speed tight turn binding.

Cheers!


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Same low speed binding here. Worse with slicks than it is with street tires. Now a limited slip might cause more binding if it is a clutch pack, but if it is a planetary gear setup it might not. I was thinking of ditching the Haldex clutch pack on one of my rear ends and putting in a viscous coupling in its place. Technically it should work, but I have not had any real time as to mess around with the idea.


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## sTT eV6 (Oct 26, 2010)

For those of you that are binding, check your front inside tyre wear as this is where the wheels will skip on you and you will find excess wear. If thats the case, check your RR and adjust tyre pressures to improve the difference in tyre sizes.
Steve


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

sTT eV6 said:


> For those of you that are binding, check your front inside tyre wear as this is where the wheels will skip on you and you will find excess wear. If thats the case, check your RR and adjust tyre pressures to improve the difference in tyre sizes.
> Steve


Steve,

Right rear for wear is the worst offender. On track tire pressures differentials seem to play a lot into the binding/clunking of the rear haldex, but this is still on slicks. It seems like the rear differential from side to side is not allowing any slip as though it has a locker in it and thus causes the clutch pack to get extra pre-load. 

I have experienced if you turn into a parking spot and dont allow the car to roll forward/backward in neutral and then turn it off, there is preload on the prop-shaft that makes a loud bang when you turn the car off.

:thumbup:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

DeckManDubs said:


> Steve,
> 
> Right rear for wear is the worst offender. On track tire pressures differentials seem to play a lot into the binding/clunking of the rear haldex, but this is still on slicks. It seems like the rear differential from side to side is not allowing any slip as though it has a locker in it and thus causes the clutch pack to get extra pre-load.
> 
> ...


Ouch! Sounds like my dad's 4X4 I used to drive in high school when taking girls out on a date.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

I made a U-turn on the way home yesterday and could hear and feel binding. And Im on a stock controller. And my fluid is only about 5k miles old.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

warranty225cpe said:


> I made a U-turn on the way home yesterday and could hear and feel binding. And Im on a stock controller. And my fluid is only about 5k miles old.


We slapped a competition controller on your car overnight as a joke! :laugh:

J/K if you were really binding and skipping at low speed, you'd know. It feels like the rear end wants to rip apart from the car, and throttle is applied the thing starts skipping and hopping like crazy. I drove an R32 with an orange controller at an autocross event, and besides skipping through tight turns on course, bringing the car the paddock was a real challenge. Trust me if you had that, you would stop driving your car until it's fixed. I'd do a fluid change and check your tire pressure (if your rolling diameter front/rear is on point).


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Ouch! Sounds like my dad's 4X4 I used to drive in high school when taking girls out on a date.


Yeah, its annoying in parking lots. But on the track in the dry and in the rain it is awesome. I personally think the pressure on the clutch packs has caused them to not dis-engage at low speed.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

Max- IF you have a local with a spare controller do you still need another? Let me know.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> We slapped a competition controller on your car overnight as a joke! :laugh:
> 
> J/K if you were really binding and skipping at low speed, you'd know. It feels like the rear end wants to rip apart from the car, and throttle is applied the thing starts skipping and hopping like crazy. I drove an R32 with an orange controller at an autocross event, and besides skipping through tight turns on course, bringing the car the paddock was a real challenge. Trust me if you had that, you would stop driving your car until it's fixed. I'd do a fluid change and check your tire pressure (if your rolling diameter front/rear is on point).


I can actually feel it stutter from the back end when turning in a tight circle. I can imagine it would be anything else.


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

warranty225cpe said:


> I can actually feel it stutter from the back end when turning in a tight circle. I can imagine it would be anything else.


As mentioned above, I add friction modifier one ounce at a time until the binding stops. Been doing this for 5 or 6 years, and she's great in the snow.


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## racin2redline (Sep 25, 2008)

esoxlucios said:


> As mentioned above, I add friction modifier one ounce at a time until the binding stops. Been doing this for 5 or 6 years, and she's great in the snow.


Interesting idea. Never thought about it because it's an open diff. I'm due for a haldex fluid change maybe ill overhaul the whole rear end. Probably going to use redline MT-90 stuffs amazing! What kind of additive like lubromoly ?


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

racin2redline said:


> Interesting idea. Never thought about it because it's an open diff. I'm due for a haldex fluid change maybe ill overhaul the whole rear end. Probably going to use redline MT-90 stuffs amazing! What kind of additive like lubromoly ?


The diff is open, but the Haldex has six clutch plates, IIRC, like a LSD. I replaced the mystery Haldex fluid with Amsoil "Powershift" that closely resembles the Blackstone findings (IIRC, straight synthetic 20 weight). Then I start with 5 oz. of the Amsoil "Slip Lock" friction modifier (http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/gear-lube/slip-lock-gear-oil-additive/) and add an add'l ounce at a time 'til the binding stops.


----------



## racin2redline (Sep 25, 2008)

esoxlucios said:


> The diff is open, but the Haldex has six clutch plates, IIRC, like a LSD. I replaced the mystery Haldex fluid with Amsoil "Powershift" that closely resembles the Blackstone findings (IIRC, straight synthetic 20 weight). Then I start with 5 oz. of the Amsoil "Slip Lock" friction modifier (http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/gear-lube/slip-lock-gear-oil-additive/) and add an add'l ounce at a time 'til the binding stops.


Interesting I've always been afraid to use something other than haldex fluid I thought It may damage the pump or the discs? I may just try this thanks for the tip :thumbup:


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## YHW (Nov 9, 2013)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I got a chance to pull my stock haldex controller and see what we're dealing with adding restriction via the Powertrack modified plug approach.
> 
> 
> As suspected, the PT insert fully restricts bypass in 99.9% of conditions. This allows the rear diff to remain engaged on most situations at a 50/50 ratio.
> ...


Hi everyone, we, from Your Haldex Works try to not be involved very much on the multiples enthusiats forums because we think it's more a place for individuals to share theirs opinions and experiences. Therefore, in some situation, we have to intervene. 

First of all, to Marcus-Aurelius, because you have one of our product, you are one of our customers and we would like to thank you for your purchase. We always respect our customers and try to make them happy with their purchases.

Where we are not confortable is when unfunded theories that discredit the function, efficiency or behavior of our product are exposed as if they were the truth. 

For your information, the fluid caracteristics and their impacts have all been evaluated in the design, fabrication and testing processes. The Powertrack Insert as it is when you purchase it, is already optimized. All the potential problems that you may be scared by were all taken into considerations and have been adressed. We did more than our homeworks, we passed the test hands down. 

It is very important for you to know that if you modify the Powertrack Insert from it's original shape, you decrease by very fast it's efficiency (exponentially). Also, you directly increase the chances of burning the clutch pack in your unit by creating more intermediate pressure conditions resulting in clutch slip. 

The development involved in that product was the result of the combined efforts of a team of specialists; european car mecanics, engineering technian and mechanical engineer. The tool we use to measure and fabricate our product are able to precision to the tenth thousand of an inch and could measure and fabricate parts that could be used to send shuttle in space. We seriously doubt that a couple of bold red marker lines on the tail of a pen refill cartridge could suggest an improvement of any kind or be used to evaluate the fluid restriction percentage to the tenth of a percent as you did. For your information, sorry to have to say that but even if you would have the proper tool, what you were measuring, how you measured it, is not a dimension that you could use to conclude anything because it is not a dimension involved in any given function. Sorry one time more and no offence but it just shows you don't know how the system works. 

So far, all the customers who tried our product as we are selling it are very happy and no one so far had binding and skipping problems. We still advise they may happen, but so far, no complain and no occurence. You could want to know why our product is as much efficient when compared to the well known HPA unit while on the other hand it creates none to very less tire skip and skid? That is just the result of hard working and optimized conception. 

Marcus, before ruining, with the goal to improve, your "not even tried" Powertrack Insert by sanding and cutting it, we encourage you very much to install it on your car and to enjoy all the improvements it has been designed to do. We bet you will like it very much as our other customers do. Therefore, you paid for it and it's totally yours. Therefore, you can't discredit its design or efficiency without real good reasons and/or proofs. Even more because you did not even tried it yet. If you are not happy with it, we have a great aftersale service and we will be glad to hear from you on what you didn't like about it and we will do our best to make you happy with your purchase. We are sure you understand our position on that. Also, by modifying it, you take the chance to damage your Haldex clutches and to not even have any benifits of the Powertrack Insert. 

For everyone that have questions about first generation Haldex, you are all welcome to visit our facebook page or ebay store and to send us any questions you could have. Beware of the self proclamed "Haldex gurus" that everyone are trying to find around on every forums. We would like to stay as much humble as possible, but from lots of misinformations we red right and left, we think we are what is the closest to be "Haldex gurus". We repaired lots of Haldex systems, helped customers all around the world to diagnose lots of Haldex problems and now we are selling product to modify and improve your systems.

We have more and more happy customers because we really care about what we sell and about our customers satisfaction. Marcus you are always welcome to send us your questions and it is the same for anyone who have questions about our products or about Haldex system.

Thank you very much everyone for the time you took to read that reply and we hope it will help you to make wise decision.

YHW team


----------



## LF_gottron (Jan 24, 2013)

sTT eV6 said:


> Is your Haldex System actually working..
> Steve





Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Thats a good question, I wondered the same thing too.


lol yes it is, have you seen the video i posted. ive been doing launches like that almost every week just to test it out


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

YHW said:


> For your information, . . . the tool we use to measure and fabricate our product are able to precision to the tenth thousand of an inch and could measure and fabricate parts that could be used to send shuttle in space. We seriously doubt that a couple of bold red marker lines on the tail of a pen refill cartridge could suggest an improvement of any kind or be used to evaluate the fluid restriction percentage to the tenth of a percent as you did. For your information, sorry to have to say that but even if you would have the proper tool, what you were measuring, how you measured it, is not a dimension that you could use to conclude anything because it is not a dimension involved in any given function. Sorry one time more and no offence but it just shows you don't know how the system works.


Max, put down the red marker and ink pen refill, and nobody has to get hurt. We are here to help you.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

esoxlucios said:


> Max, put down the red marker and ink pen refill, and nobody has to get hurt. We are here to help you.


LMAO!


----------



## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

YHW said:


> The development involved in that product was the result of the combined efforts of a team of specialists; european car mecanics, engineering technian and mechanical engineer. The tool we use to measure and fabricate our product are able to precision to the tenth thousand of an inch and could measure and fabricate parts that could be used to send shuttle in space. We seriously doubt that a couple of bold red marker lines on the tail of a pen refill cartridge could suggest an improvement of any kind or be used to evaluate the fluid restriction percentage to the tenth of a percent as you did. For your information, sorry to have to say that but even if you would have the proper tool, what you were measuring, how you measured it, is not a dimension that you could use to conclude anything because it is not a dimension involved in any given function. Sorry one time more and no offence but it just shows you don't know how the system works.



Many of us here are engineers, have access to better equipment than you do, so I'd suggest that before you claim we don't understand a system or have the capability to modify parts and measure them properly to see the results of what we are doing that you understand who we are and what we do (not saying max has the right idea with a marker and sandpaper). 

So as I understand it the purpose of this community is to learn and improve our understanding of not only your product but the system which it works in. So while we appreciate your input it be great if you could interject facts/data/research that you claim you did, how you tested these things, etc. Rather than "yea we did that".

Other wise we will continue to learn and modify things as we see fit to better our knowledge. Sometimes you have to break something to understand how it works.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

esoxlucios said:


> Max, put down the red marker and ink pen refill, and nobody has to get hurt. We are here to help you.


:laugh::laugh:



DeckManDubs said:


> LMAO!


Isn't this hilarious Noah? :laugh:



ejg3855 said:


> Many of us here are engineers, have access to better equipment than you do, so I'd suggest that before you claim we don't understand a system or have the capability to modify parts and measure them properly to see the results of what we are doing that you understand who we are and what we do (not saying max has the right idea with a marker and sandpaper).
> 
> So as I understand it the purpose of this community is to learn and improve our understanding of not only your product but the system which it works in. So while we appreciate your input it be great if you could interject facts/data/research that you claim you did, how you tested these things, etc. Rather than "yea we did that".
> 
> Other wise we will continue to learn and modify things as we see fit to better our knowledge. Sometimes you have to break something to understand how it works.


I live in the Stone Age where people sending shuttle into space haven't invented a measuring caliper yet. 


I was really struggling to find the proper way to approach and answer that post from YHW. I like to give a product and company the benefit of the doubt and to be honest, I have nothing against the powertrack unit. It becomes laughable though when they think or assume that a vernier caliper with a depth probe is something that is not available to me or the average enthusiast. It becomes even more of a joke when a company thinks they're the only one with enough knowledge to understand how a simple system like the Haldex works and function. I see it time and time again where a someone or a company makes a product and believe that there is no room for improvement on the design. 


As for YHW, I am not sure why you guys get so caught up in thinking the fluid control on the haldex system is to be static, while in reality it's a very dynamic one. Even in cruise state and the controller fully open for fluid bypass, there is quite a bit of intermediate action going on. It is not a desirable thing (both in terms or performance or reliability) to have the wet clutch staying engaged in most states. Everything posted by YHW (including that chart that demonstrates the amount of locking in various conditions), as well as measurements made on the insert, suggests that it restricts fluid bypass and forces full engagement way too much in all conditions. The beauty of a smart and evolved AWD system (in comparison to old mechanical all-time systems) is that it's able to provide locking when needed and disengagement in all the other real life situations where having the rear locked isn't wanted (which is a performance disadvantage). 


As far as knowing what I'm doing and risking damage to my system, I'll take my chances (an educated risk just like modifying anything from OEM). I've tested and made enough custom parts for my car (that is track abused) and others to know and be able evaluate the implications of what I'm doing. I pointed in my post that I purposely didn't show and give any of the measurements taken because I didn't want anyone to go and try to replicate something that I'm TESTING. The red paint pen idea is about the only way I can illustrate what is going on, short of showing the caliper made measurements. It's like VW/Audi or HPA telling me not to try to read and flash the controller because it takes rocket scientists to achieve such a feat...I'll take my chances! 


If YHW is so kind and caring, how about they send me another space engineered plug that I will leave un-modified and test/compare vs the modified ones. Yeah, I said one(s) because just to prove the point that a $20 plug isn't rocket science, there will be about a dozen made at various restricting pins so I can test (0.5 mm increments).


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

ejg3855 said:


> Max- IF you have a local with a spare controller do you still need another? Let me know.


I got it settled, I have a local donation of a spare controller to do more testing and experimentation. Modifying the pin gearing on the motor's pinion is going to get done on this one, as well as the first attempt to read and flash. If I need more, I'll let you know. I appreciate the help! :beer:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

ejg3855 said:


> So while we appreciate your input it be great if you could interject facts/data/research that you claim you did, how you tested these things, etc. Rather than "yea we did that".


Nailed it.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

20v master said:


> Nailed it.


x2:thumbup:


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## racin2redline (Sep 25, 2008)

Clearly YHM is confused because the TT closely resembles a spaceship from the jetsons. Totally understandable. 
only rocket scientists can understand such a complex system....


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

racin2redline said:


> Clearly YHM is confused because the TT closely resembles a spaceship from the jetsons. Totally understandable.
> Clearly only rocket scientists can understand such a complex system....


Yeah especially because the diagrams in the Bentley we all own plus other resources aren't available to us. 

to YHW: None of us have anything against your product. You have to realize we would all be skeptical because its a cheap alternative that pops up some 13 years after the gen 1 haldex was introduced. 90% of us have a background or at least the knowledge to understand the concept and what it is the plug does, however we are interested in any accelerated wear on other parts and interested to see how this plug compares to the orange controller mechanically. Simply put, feed us all the knowledge you can and we'll absorb it like a wet sponge assuming its true...youd be surprised how nice and civilized we can be when we have factual data


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

PLAYED TT said:


> Yeah especially because the diagrams in the Bentley we all own plus other resources aren't available to us.
> 
> 
> to YHW: None of us have anything against your product. You have to realize we would all be skeptical because its a cheap alternative that pops up some 13 years after the gen 1 haldex was introduced. 90% of us have a background or at least the knowledge to understand the concept and what it is the plug does, however we are interested in any accelerated wear on other parts and interested to see how this plug compares to the orange controller mechanically. Simply put, feed us all the knowledge you can and we'll absorb it like a wet sponge assuming its true...youd be surprised how nice and civilized we can be when we have factual data



What I'd like to see, since YHW did spacecraft level engineering and testing on adding a simple pin retrictor to a plug, is data showing input and controller reaction dynamically. This will show and prove that having intermediate fluid bypass to the clutches is detrimental to the system's longevity, or not.


They're proposing that allowing some dynamic bypass (like it's done with an OEM mapped controller) will cause premature damage. According to them, having zero bypass with their plug, and forcing fluid pressure to continuously lock the rear, is totally fine and a desirable overall performance improvement. If this was the case the OEM controller would burn the clutch the quickest because it's allowing intermediate pressure (via bypass) the majority of the time AFAIK. And let's not even go there that their product doesn't fully restrict bypass in the return bore (all gloves are off now):


2.12 mm is the distance from the opening of the port to the bypass orifice floor (therefore 2.12 mm completely blocks the return bore and fully restricts bypass).











And this what the PT unit is in comparison to 2.12 mm (no red marker involved).


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Looks like witchcraft to me opcorn:


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

max can we all pitch in and get you a decent set of mitutoyo calipers?


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

I would think that full pressure on the clutches 100% of the time would create no slipping, thus greatly reducing wear. Am I off my rocker?


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

ejg3855 said:


> I would think that full pressure on the clutches 100% of the time would create no slipping, thus greatly reducing wear. Am I off my rocker?


But any friction surface being engaged all the time would cause more use and wear of the friction surface..?


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

ejg3855 said:


> max can we all pitch in and get you a decent set of mitutoyo calipers?


:laugh: I get pretty good discounts on Mitutoyo stuff 




ejg3855 said:


> I would think that full pressure on the clutches 100% of the time would create no slipping, thus greatly reducing wear. Am I off my rocker?


Well almost no slip, something will slip, either the clutches causing wear or the tires creating extra wear that seems to be mostly focused on the right rear.



warranty225cpe said:


> But any friction surface being engaged all the time would cause more use and wear of the friction surface..?


More friction, more heat and more wear, requiring more frequent fluid changes to prevent contaminants getting into the pump and ruining the brushes.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

ejg3855 said:


> I would think that full pressure on the clutches 100% of the time would create no slipping, thus greatly reducing wear. Am I off my rocker?


You're not off, and I said it before in the thread, having full discs lock up will minimize slipping and to some degree reduce wear and fluid change intervals. 



Marcus_Aurelius said:


> ... I wouldn't want my discs to be constantly engaged (although that means less slipping and possibly longer fluid change intervals), and I don't know why anyone would want that ...


What's wrong IMO is to propose that having intermediate pressure (like it is with OEM) isn't a desired function overall, and somehow will cause premature damage or failure of the system. The short interval fluid change and the resulting dirty fluid and filter (full of shavings) is evidence that the wet clutches, in stock form, are constantly slipping/grabbing/releasing to make the system work smartly as it should. So it becomes obvious that completely restricting bypass will provide full pressure and lock up with limited wear, but it's not good for performance overall because there are many real life situations where this is not desirable.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> And let's not even go there that their product doesn't fully restrict bypass in the return bore (all gloves are off now):
> 
> 
> 2.12 mm is the distance from the opening of the port to the bypass orifice floor (therefore 2.12 mm completely blocks the return bore and fully restricts bypass).


So if their product only partially blocks the pressure then will it allow the clutches to slip at all? Or is the pressure still to high for that to be allowed? What amount of pressure is the system under? Because that could spell disaster at high pressure if there was a failure no? Edumacate me please


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

PLAYED TT said:


> So if their product only partially blocks the pressure then will it allow the clutches to slip at all? Or is the pressure still to high for that to be allowed? What amount of pressure is the system under? Because that could spell disaster at high pressure if there was a failure no? Edumacate me please


James, its fully blocking locking it in "full engagement" at the 2.12mm from what I am reading, sort of like a Competition controller but without anyway to allow excess pressure to release. Granted, the plunger might be able to be re-designed to have a spring release point to allow at "X" pressure to release preventing to allow a slight reprieve to the friction pressure.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

DeckManDubs said:


> James, its fully blocking locking it in "full engagement" at the 2.12mm from what I am reading, sort of like a Competition controller but without anyway to allow excess pressure to release. Granted, the plunger might be able to be re-designed to have a spring release point to allow at "X" pressure to release preventing to allow a slight reprieve to the friction pressure.


Thats what my understanding was, but the way Max has it worded it seems different. Thats why I was confused


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## 034Motorsport (Apr 16, 2012)

Having a locked diff is rather 1980s, isn't it?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

PLAYED TT said:


> So if their product only partially blocks the pressure then will it allow the clutches to slip at all? Or is the pressure still to high for that to be allowed? What amount of pressure is the system under? Because that could spell disaster at high pressure if there was a failure no? Edumacate me please





DeckManDubs said:


> James, its fully blocking locking it in "full engagement" at the 2.12mm from what I am reading, sort of like a Competition controller but without anyway to allow excess pressure to release. Granted, the plunger might be able to be re-designed to have a spring release point to allow at "X" pressure to release preventing to allow a slight reprieve to the friction pressure.


Thats correct, it's blocking all fluid bypass at 2.12mm (the 2.12mm being the distance from the top of the port to the floor of the bypass bore). Sorry if the wording was a little confusing.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Having a locked diff is rather 1908s, isn't it?


As far as we all know it is very 1908s to want your rear fully engaged in most conditions! However, according to this clever chart made by the super engineers at YHW, we could all be wrong (go directly to the bottom of the paper for the chart, or you risk being sent into space if you read through he whole thing): http://auditttuning.org/2013/09/19/...mprove-your-haldex-first-generation-traction/


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

All the mis-spelled words makes my head hurt, perhaps it will make more sense with alcohol. Off to drink some Scotch, will report back!


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Thats correct, it's blocking all fluid bypass at 2.12mm (the 2.12mm being the distance from the top of the port to the floor of the bypass bore). Sorry if the wording was a little confusing.


Ok no problem I got it now:thumbup:


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Love the "Hey peeps" lmao


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

why don't we use the creative power and know how of us fine folks in this forum to create a unit like the SQS unit that has the quick pressure release. I can design/draft/ and get things machined. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

ejg3855 said:


> why don't we use the creative power and know how of us fine folks in this forum to create a unit like the SQS unit that has the quick pressure release. I can design/draft/ and get things machined.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk


Perfect! I do have some machining capabilities :beer:


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## TToxic (Nov 15, 2008)

Why bother making up various length plugs? Take a stock oem plug, drill & tap it and run a stud with a lock nut on the outside. You could adjust to your hearts content. When you find the sweet spot - pull the plug and have that machined / duplicated. That plug is a joke for any competent machine shop to reproduce for a better price.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

TToxic said:


> Why bother making up various length plugs? Take a stock oem plug, drill & tap it and run a stud with a lock nut on the outside. You could adjust to your hearts content. When you find the sweet spot - pull the plug and have that machined / duplicated. That plug is a joke for any competent machine shop to reproduce for a better price.


It all needs to be o-ringed along the length of adjustment, which adds to the complexity. Its not just like a DIY MBC.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

DeckManDubs said:


> Perfect! I do have some machining capabilities :beer:


:bs: :laugh:


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## TToxic (Nov 15, 2008)

I'am aware its not a DIY MBC lol. Ive overhauled several of these Haldex units. O-rings are a no problem with a lathe. Mechanical manipulation allows you to find the increments / sweep of full lock to stock. Then you can produce a SQS knock off. YHW & SQS know these settings for sure but they will never offer them up. The one setting for full lock you have with the YHW plug. THe SQS pc. is a full operational sweep without damage that's what is nice with it. Simply threw an idea out there as opposed to sanding the YHW plug.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

Yes, I'm still desiring the pressure release version of the SQS unit. While the mechanical adjustable unit is interesting the ability to disconnect the rear end is far more desirable IMO.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

I would be down for a SQS type unit. Why cant we use the SQS?


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

i think its funny how people here will ream out a user for buying an ebay clone, or accuse a company like gruven for selling arms that supposedly copied aspects of another company....

BUT

Will encourage cloning YHW plug as a community because it is an overpriced plug. If it is such a stupid plug, then why didn't anyone of you make one before? People always talk about supporting ingenuity when companies make new parts for our cars (Say like IE) knowing full well that the parts can easily be cloned....

ME, I could care less about cloning ANYONE's stuff. Doesn't bother me. Just pointing out some hypocrisy.

Carry on....


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

speed51133! said:


> i think its funny how people here will ream out a user for buying an ebay clone, or accuse a company like gruven for selling arms that supposedly copied aspects of another company....
> 
> BUT
> 
> ...



Wait no one said or intends to "clone" the YHW plug, infact most of us think its a good price for what it does. 

What we here are looking for is a SQS Style Plug that comes in at a price point closer to the YHW plug.

What I would like to do is figure out how to get a SQS Style Plug With Pressure release solenoid. 

So I think you are mistaken as to what the desired outcome of this thread is.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

speed51133! said:


> i think its funny how people here will ream out a user for buying an ebay clone, or accuse a company like gruven for selling arms that supposedly copied aspects of another company....
> 
> BUT
> 
> ...


Im willing to bet that if YHW came on here singing a different tune and didnt piss people off, the outcome could have been different. Using your first post to ruffle feathers is a great way for the "community" to justify going the DIY route.


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## Foolee (Mar 23, 2013)

Just a thought but if the YHW team has done so much R&D how come they don't have a list that says what years, makes and model had screw in style plugs vs the "c" clip plug. I'm not a rocket scientist but I'm willing to bet there was a crossover year where Haldex changed their design for one reason or another.


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

I find it funny that so many folks agree with the theory of it, as it works on the same premise the other controllers work. Yet so many others are knocking it and are skeptical before trying it. 

Some reputable folks just need to spend the couple bucks and try it and let folks know. I know when I'm ready I'll be trying it.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

speed51133! said:


> i think its funny how people here will ream out a user for buying an ebay clone, or accuse a company like gruven for selling arms that supposedly copied aspects of another company....


Well Gruven ignored my solution to the problem over 4 years ago when I pointed out the issue with the spherical bearings. Max then created the solution that Paul quickly copied to save face. However the damage was already done when he copied CPT's arms but failed to use the correct bearings (thus why they were cheaper) at the cost of safety.




speed51133! said:


> BUT
> 
> Will encourage cloning YHW plug as a community because it is an overpriced plug. If it is such a stupid plug, then why didn't anyone of you make one before? People always talk about supporting ingenuity when companies make new parts for our cars (Say like IE) knowing full well that the parts can easily be cloned....
> 
> ...



Testing needs to be done. YHW clearly does not have the testing abilities the few of us who are involved in the engineering/modification part of this. After knowing what damage my competition controller is doing to my rear clutch packs and bearings, I can tell you that as this plug is sold from YHW, it will destroy the clutch packs in a very short period of time.




ejg3855 said:


> Wait no one said or intends to "clone" the YHW plug, infact most of us think its a good price for what it does.
> 
> What we here are looking for is a SQS Style Plug that comes in at a price point closer to the YHW plug.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:




warranty225cpe said:


> Im willing to bet that if YHW came on here singing a different tune and didnt piss people off, the outcome could have been different. Using your first post to ruffle feathers is a great way for the "community" to justify going the DIY route.


More of this ^^^ As the post below comes reads to me "You idiot TT owners/internet engineers do not understand how the Haldex works, so leave it to us professionals, we are the engineieireers" 



YHW said:


> Hi everyone, we, from Your Haldex Works try to not be involved very much on the multiples enthusiats forums because we think it's more a place for individuals to share theirs opinions and experiences. Therefore, in some situation, we have to intervene.
> 
> First of all, to Marcus-Aurelius, because you have one of our product, you are one of our customers and we would like to thank you for your purchase. We always respect our customers and try to make them happy with their purchases.
> 
> ...


One very badly written sales pitch by sales people. Please bring actual engineering experience to the table. And also please spell check!


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

i think they are french canadian....

anyways, point taken. i still think they brought a somewhat innovative product to an almost untapped, 10 year old + market, stagnant, declining market. Which is nice for us.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

speed51133! said:


> i think they are french canadian....


ROFL, well that explains a thing of two eace: 



speed51133! said:


> anyways, point taken. i still think they brought a somewhat innovative product to an almost untapped, 10 year old + market, stagnant, declining market. Which is nice for us.


Agreed, thus why we are talking about it and if it can be improved :thumbup::thumbup::beer::beer:


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## 034Motorsport (Apr 16, 2012)

speed51133! said:


> anyways, point taken. i still think they brought a somewhat innovative product to an almost untapped, 10 year old + market, stagnant, declining market. Which is nice for us.


I wouldn't call turning a modern Haldex AWD car into something with a locked diff "innovative" but to each their own.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> I wouldn't call turning a modern Haldex AWD car into something with a locked diff "innovative" but to each their own.


:thumbup:


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## TToxic (Nov 15, 2008)

speed51133! said:


> i think its funny how people here will ream out a user for buying an ebay clone, or accuse a company like gruven for selling arms that supposedly copied aspects of another company....
> 
> BUT
> 
> ...


FYI - Enthusiasts have been back yard engineering gizmo's for full lock for as long as Audi has been using Haldex units, all with different approaches yet the same goal achieved full lock. The interest here is full manipulation of the unit beyond the blue, orange, red controllers or a plug for full locked and how this may potentially improve the handling characteristics of our TT's. Before anything electrically driven can be designed for adjustability (knob on the dash etc.) the mechanical aspects/increments must be known. I don't really see any copying or knock off going on. If that was the case I could take a YHW plug and have it reproduced for half the price by the bin full. That's not the interest.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> I wouldn't call turning a modern Haldex AWD car into something with a locked diff "innovative" but to each their own.


Whille this is true, there isn't a cost effective solution on the market. A unit that cost 1K+ to control the characteristics of the haldex is way OP'ed in my opinion. Its also why the TT still has the stock unit.

I personally am watching this because I am in the process of swapping a haldex rear end into a mk2 and I don't feel like carrying over the ABS system, so a pure mechanical solution is very desirable to me.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

TToxic said:


> FYI - I don't really see any copying or knock off going on. If that was the case I could take a YHW plug and have it reproduced for half the price by the bin full. That's not the interest.


It takes people that are truely interested in what's possible to engineer something that takes everything into account. Less knock-off, more "doing what should have been done from the beginning".


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## ModsTTand (Jul 8, 2009)

Greetings i'm following this Haldex Modification threads on other forum hope it'll be beneficial to this thread http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-...al-question-any-haldex-controller-experts.htm


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## ModsTTand (Jul 8, 2009)

ModsTTand said:


> Greetings i'm following this Haldex Modification threads on other forum hope it'll be beneficial to this thread http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-...al-question-any-haldex-controller-experts.htm


more links http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...l-question-any-haldex-controller-experts.html


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## WhanAB (Jul 29, 2012)

*Have been reading what folks are saying*

all I know...... is nobody knows who you are and what fields your in So how can anyone be negative towards folks

can point out things that do not make sense and ask for clarification as that seems a nice why ... But I learn so much

by everyone especially kids 5 years old and up Well in fact from my 21 month Just how much fun trying to do dishes

are with hands aND ARMS FLYING THRU THE WATER LOL

Any way anybody has a idea can help out with a few skills I continually learn more about Not really old but not young either

always willing to listen and once in a while actually bring something to the table..... In the UK forum this is a thread as well

as some of you know....... 

email me anytime [email protected]


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

esoxlucios said:


> The diff is open, but the Haldex has six clutch plates, IIRC, like a LSD. I replaced the mystery Haldex fluid with Amsoil "Powershift" that closely resembles the Blackstone findings (IIRC, straight synthetic 20 weight). Then I start with 5 oz. of the Amsoil "Slip Lock" friction modifier (http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/gear-lube/slip-lock-gear-oil-additive/) and add an add'l ounce at a time 'til the binding stops.


Some have asked. This is what I've been using for 5-6 years with the Slip-Lock additive on a blue HPA controller.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

esoxlucios said:


> Some have asked. This is what I've been using for 5-6 years with the Slip-Lock additive on a blue HPA controller.


Thanks. This is on my short list:thumbup:


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

WOuld you mind sharing what you have determined to be the best amount of slip lock?


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

ejg3855 said:


> WOuld you mind sharing what you have determined to be the best amount of slip lock?


A good starting point (what I use each fluid change) is 220ml of the Power Shift and 50ml of the Slip Lock. I then test out by getting up to operating temperature and doing tight circles in a parking lot. If I continue to hear binding, I add an ounce at a time of Slip Lock until it's gone.

To repeat, I've been doing this for 5-6 years, and my winter performance is great.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Some Haldex Clutch plate info


























:beer:


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## YHW (Nov 9, 2013)

Hi again everyone, 

we taught it could be a good idea to come back and write more in order to help you understand how the system works and the impact of our product with it. We did not came here to pretend you guys don't have capacity or equipement to understand or modify an Haldex system. As we said, the point for us was to clarify that our product works great and that every design aspect have been considered. 

This intervention is not done with the goal to argue with anyone but to answer questions that we are reading. As previously said, anyone is always welcome to come to our facebook page or ebay store and ask their questions there. We are here to help you understand what you are buying. We especially care about you guys as a forum community and VAG enthusiats. These kinds of products are developped for you that are, we hope, as we are, VAG lovers who enjoy driving their cars.

We sorted few quotes where we taught we could give some helpfull inputs. 


Marcus_Aurelius
Quote: "As for YHW, I am not sure why you guys get so caught up in thinking the fluid control on the haldex system is to be static, while in reality it's a very dynamic one. Even in cruise state and the controller fully open for fluid bypass, there is quite a bit of intermediate action going on. It is not a desirable thing (both in terms or performance or reliability) to have the wet clutch staying engaged in most states. Everything posted by YHW (including that chart that demonstrates the amount of locking in various conditions), as well as measurements made on the insert, suggests that it restricts fluid bypass and forces full engagement way too much in all conditions."

Comment: *In fact we did not say the fluid won't circulate. We therefore understand your point when you are refering to that chart that is brushing situations and reactions of the unit. It's been illustrated in the "working pressure point of view" but it's true that hydraulic oil in the Haldex unit is always circulating, even with the Powertrack Insert installed the oil will continu irculating in the system as much as it is in the stock configuration.

Quote: "What I'd like to see, since YHW did spacecraft level engineering and testing on adding a simple pin retrictor to a plug, is data showing input and controller reaction dynamically. This will show and prove that having intermediate fluid bypass to the clutches is detrimental to the system's longevity, or not. They're proposing that allowing some dynamic bypass (like it's done with an OEM mapped controller) will cause premature damage. According to them, having zero bypass with their plug, and forcing fluid pressure to continuously lock the rear, is totally fine and a desirable overall performance improvement. If this was the case the OEM controller would burn the clutch the quickest because it's allowing intermediate pressure (via bypass) the majority of the time AFAIK. And let's not even go there that their product doesn't fully restrict bypass in the return bore (all gloves are off now):" 

Comment: *Intermediate pressure position is bad for clutches that is undeniable. Therefore, the question is what you are doing as a driver when your Haldex unit is having an intermediate position. You are decelerating? No problem. You are constant speed cruising? No problem. You slowly accelerate? Not even a concern. You are flooring it? There you have a problem. Now we know that, the question you have to ask to yourself is when I'm accelerating full throttle what does it happen in my Haldex unit depending on how it is equipped. If you have an OEM controller the pressure will progressively increase and eventually stop the clutch slip. Same thing with an aftermarket controller but it happens faster or instanly. Instant reaction is what is happen with a Powertrack Insert. When you create a intermediate position/intermediate pressure that never stops, there you are creating lot of clutch slip, lots of heat and wear. There is the main problem of intermediate pressure. If you modify a Powertrack Insert in order to do that, you won't create that much of a problem because if you have a control module that is properly working, it will back up that intermediate pressure and eventually stop the slip that is happening. When you use a SQS, you are stand alone there and it will always remains at the same position. SQS should be used completely closed or open particularly on high output horsepower cars. Also, SQS is not supporting the electrical function of the Haldex system. We do not want to do the process of the SQS, they have their products as we have ours and as HPA do. We just want to illustrate some important difference.

Quote: "2.12 mm is the distance from the opening of the port to the bypass orifice floor (therefore 2.12 mm completely blocks the return bore and fully restricts bypass)."
Comment: *Just as an input, 2.12mm is not a distance of anything. We can't blame trying to find something thouh! 

Quote: "What's wrong IMO is to propose that having intermediate pressure (like it is with OEM) isn't a desired function overall, and somehow will cause premature damage or failure of the system. The short interval fluid change and the resulting dirty fluid and filter (full of shavings) is evidence that the wet clutches, in stock form, are constantly slipping/grabbing/releasing to make the system work smartly as it should. So it becomes obvious that completely restricting bypass will provide full pressure and lock up with limited wear, but it's not good for performance overall because there are many real life situations where this is not desirable."

Comment: *Let us explain in a other way how intermediate pressure is detrimental for your system. Think about any clucth. Let's figure a dry clutch between an engine and a transmission. Everything that is the most basic. You do some start-stop city driving. Each time you apply and release the clutch pedal a slight slip is happening on the clutch. That is not too bad because you are dosing the throttle pedal accordingly and care about preserving your components. It provides a smooth enough operation. That is about the stock Haldex controller is working. In theses circomptances, most of the clutches will probably last the life of the car if there is no other problem to the system. Now second story, city crusing but you are rushed. Full throttle all the time at every start-stop, therefore, the speed reaction of your left foot for some reason doesn't adapt and continue to engage and realease the clutch at the same speed. You will still have that "smooth" operation but the slip, heat and wear is increased. The clutch will last a time, quite a long time but eventually it will begin to not hook as it should and you will have to replace it. An intermediate position that never stops is like having a defective clutch or a worn clutch or a better example, it's like having your foot all the time on the clutch pedal half down. You will be able to put your car in movement, it will definitively operate smootly. Therefore the problem is when you ask more from it. You are crusing30 mph then you go full throttle, you will smoke everything around. It's the same thing for the wet clutches in the Haldex unit. If you create an intermediate pressure you will kill it. Because car dynamics send more power to the rear when you are launching the car, your front wheels will more likely spin and even more power goes to the rear. With not enough pressure applied to the clutch it will produce internal wear, performance reduction and eventually complete fail of the system. As a matter of comparison, our product should be see like a race clutch for your car.


Played_TT
Quote: "to YHW: None of us have anything against your product. You have to realize we would all be skeptical because its a cheap alternative that pops up some 13 years after the gen 1 haldex was introduced. 90% of us have a background or at least the knowledge to understand the concept and what it is the plug does, however we are interested in any accelerated wear on other parts and interested to see how this plug compares to the orange controller mechanically. Simply put, feed us all the knowledge you can and we'll absorb it like a wet sponge assuming its true...youd be surprised how nice and civilized we can be when we have factual data"

Comment: *This is a good observation when pointing why that product arrives on the market after 13 years from the introduction of the technology. One of the main reason it's because we were more involved in the service and repair. HPA who make great product dicontinued their controller according to what we red. With that said, by working a lot with these systems we had an "outside the box" view that allowed us to develop the product. Always keep in mind what were our objectives. It's affordable (even if we've been critized on the price we are selling the insert), it's completely mechanic while supporting electronic features of the car and on top of that it allows completely mechanical working of the unit for rear swap purposes. We think that is a great package! 

Quote: "So if their product only partially blocks the pressure then will it allow the clutches to slip at all? Or is the pressure still to high for that to be allowed? What amount of pressure is the system under? Because that could spell disaster at high pressure if there was a failure no? Edumacate me please

Comment: *With our product, clutches are working at maximum pressure. Maximum pressure doesn't mean over pressure. The hydraulic pressure in the Haldex system is limited via a pressure limiting valve. That valve is always involved in the process when rear traction request is sustained even when stock. That is also the reason why the oil is circulating even with the Powertrack Insert installed. Even with a restricted bypass, internal pressure decrease very fast under certain circomptances. With that in mind we designed our product in order to minimize tire skip and skids. We still advise they may happen.


ejg3855
Quote: "I would think that full pressure on the clutches 100% of the time would create no slipping, thus greatly reducing wear. Am I off my rocker?
warranty22cpe
Quote: "But any friction surface being engaged all the time would cause more use and wear of the friction surface..?
DeckManDubs
Quote: "More friction, more heat and more wear, requiring more frequent fluid changes to prevent contaminants getting into the pump and ruining the brushes

Comment: *Just want to repeat the engine to transmission clutch comparison. Your car clutch won't wear if it won't slip. Slipping creates heat, heat means power loss and wear.
Friction is not the problem, the problem is not having enough friction.


DeckManDubs
Quote: "Love the "Hey peeps" lmao" 
Comment: *Ok, on that, to our defense, that word and some others were those of the person who did the blog and who kindly ask us to write a technical article on our product. Sorry for the misspell or typoes we think it's a good article where we share good informations.

DeckManDubs
Quote: "Testing needs to be done. YHW clearly does not have the testing abilities the few of us who are involved in the engineering/modification part of this. After knowing what damage my competition controller is doing to my rear clutch packs and bearings, I can tell you that as this plug is sold from YHW, it will destroy the clutch packs in a very short period of time.

Comment: *You based that affirmation on totally nothing. We designed, fabricate ans tested that product. It should make us in the best position to juge of what it is able to do. You did not tried our products as we did. Haldex unit failure happen for different direct and/or indirect reasons. We saw it happen from OEM units on 180hp cars, we saw it on unit equipped with HPA controllers as you were an unlucky one to experienced it and it will probably happen on units equipped with our product also.


Foolee
Quote: "Just a thought but if the YHW team has done so much R&D how come they don't have a list that says what years, makes and model had screw in style plugs vs the "c" clip plug. I'm not a rocket scientist but I'm willing to bet there was a crossover year where Haldex changed their design for one reason or another. 

Comment: *Yes there is a crossover year. There are lots of car models that received that Haldex technology. We do not want people taking for granted number we would publish because we prefer to ask them to check what is the insert model on their controller. It avoids to have to send back and forth inserts on the mail. Also, the controller you have on your car is maybe not the original and could be different than expected. There is a thumb rule where 2001 and previous is 17mm hex plug and 2002 and later are circlip model. But it MUST be checked prior to order. You will have to get under the car anyways to install it, looking at what it involves before it's never a bad thing.


speed51133!
Quote: "i think they are french canadian... anyways, point taken. i still think they brought a somewhat innovative product to an almost untapped, 10 year old + market, stagnant, declining market. Which is nice for us."

Comment: *Thank you for that comment. And yes we are french canadians so you have to forgive us for our "best we can do" english! 


That is a long post folks. We hope you will appreciate it. As said before, we are not trying to debate too much, we just want to bring facts to your knowleage with respect to everyone. We are there to help and we think we have an interesting product for the enthusiats. To reuse the parallel we did with the race clutch that some people are using on their car. We all know they exist and we all know they have advantages and drawbacks. About everything in a car that is stock or modified is a compromise. We are not saying our product will suit to everyone as a race clutch does not necessarely suits to everyone. We did not equipped all our cars with race clutches just because they are available. We just offer another option to people.

Thanks

YHW team


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

YHW said:


> DeckManDubs
> Quote: "Testing needs to be done. YHW clearly does not have the testing abilities the few of us who are involved in the engineering/modification part of this. After knowing what damage my competition controller is doing to my rear clutch packs and bearings, I can tell you that as this plug is sold from YHW, it will destroy the clutch packs in a very short period of time.
> 
> Comment: *You based that affirmation on totally nothing. We designed, fabricate ans tested that product. It should make us in the best position to juge of what it is able to do. You did not tried our products as we did. Haldex unit failure happen for different direct and/or indirect reasons. We saw it happen from OEM units on 180hp cars, we saw it on unit equipped with HPA controllers as you were an unlucky one to experienced it and it will probably happen on units equipped with our product also.



Well, one of the biggest issues is the lack of fluid changes, allowing copper and zinc into the pump and accelerating the wear on the brushes. The copper can also cause shorts across the motor as well. The increased clutch wear comes from something having to allow give in the system. Even with the cam's keeping pressure on the clutch pack, you can still get slip from the load induced from the rear tires needing to rotate at different speeds. With a locked clutch plate, it creates load on the propshaft with stored energy. This ends up causing the front differential to attempt to allow the variation in wheel rotation. If the wheels cannot rotate (r-compounds and slicks wont give), then there is a moment where the clutch/flywheel will slip. 

Now granted, with the pressure relief valve adjusted to allow a little more slip under the high load conditions to prevent mechanical slip on the clutch plates, you guys might be onto something.


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## YHW (Nov 9, 2013)

DeckManDubs said:


> Well, one of the biggest issues is the lack of fluid changes, allowing copper and zinc into the pump and accelerating the wear on the brushes. The copper can also cause shorts across the motor as well. The increased clutch wear comes from something having to allow give in the system. Even with the cam's keeping pressure on the clutch pack, you can still get slip from the load induced from the rear tires needing to rotate at different speeds. With a locked clutch plate, it creates load on the propshaft with stored energy. This ends up causing the front differential to attempt to allow the variation in wheel rotation. If the wheels cannot rotate (r-compounds and slicks wont give), then there is a moment where the clutch/flywheel will slip.
> 
> Now granted, with the pressure relief valve adjusted to allow a little more slip under the high load conditions to prevent mechanical slip on the clutch plates, you guys might be onto something.


DeckManDubs thank you for your comment. Let us comment a little bit about it.

First thing lets talk about the precharge pump. Maybe people will learn that we are specialised in rebuilding and replacement components for the precharge pump that is probably one of the most important reason for a haldex unit to be not working... Maybe also that 8 pins connector. The way a precharge pump in good working order is made won't allow any oil to be in contact with the brushes or any electrical component. Therefore seal and o-rings tend to fail and eventually oil will penetrate on the electric side on the electric motor. Once this is happening, the working days of your pump are limited. The oil when in contact with the brushes will create a kind of abrasive paste that will wear them out fast. Sometime you can be fooled by the fact the motor will work even if there is evident traces of oil in it. Therefore, it won't be strong enough to pump and prime the oil in the system. 

Second, I like the way you think when you are talking about adding another "essentially a pressure realease valve". You may wonder why I like the way you think. The reason is because while we were brainstorming about the Powertrack Insert we considered that possibility. We even bought a batch of springs for prototypes. Therefore, when you understand well what is happening in the system, it become obvious that the impact is not that good. It is not that bad, but you loose more than you gain. 

Here is the reason. The high pressure that is the maximum pressure created in your Haldex system last for a very very short period of time. Enough to call it a peak pressure. That peak pressure is what you want to use as soon it is happening. If you add another pressure realease valve, you don't take the advantage of that peak pressure that will be applied on the clutches and that will allow you to minimize clutch slip and increase reaction time. Also, if you install a pressure release valve, its effect won't last that long because the stock system will "finally" come in addition and block the oil passage. 

That is said for the peak pressure. If you understand how the cam plate is working, you understand that the precious peak pressure in created when launching the car, hard acceleration, corner exit, etc... Theses are all the conditions where you are increasing the wear on your system when you car is equipped with a OEM controller especially when your car is modified to output high horsepower numbers. The best way to ruin a Haldex unit in one afternoon: Go for a track racing event with somewhere like 350 hp or more with a stock haldex unit. You are toasting the clutches after every tight corner exit. 

As soon you stop or close to be not accelerating, the hydraulic pressure is already beginning to decrease and the strain applied to the rear clutch and the whole rear axle drastically falls. With a stock controller, the pressure falls close to nothing because the valve open (that is bad by the way for 1-2-3 gear acceleration). With a Powertrack Insert or an HPA controller or a SQS closed, the pressure remains high (not peak) and ready to react to the next power/traction request. 

The difference we would like to illustrate is the fact that the Powertrack Insert has been designed with the impact of the fluid dynamics in mind. That is why it creates less skip or skids. Also, that is why when you are taking a corner or manoevering your car in a parking lot you have less chance to feel crabbing. First pressure in not peaked in that circomptance and unless you were just asking very much from your system the pressure is already lower and fluid circulate more slowly. If you go foot down on throttle with the steering full locked you have more chance to experience tire skid because of the dynamic impacts of the hydraulic oil. 

It's normal that our product works differently than what is already on the market. It's because it's made differently.

thanks


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## edgy (May 16, 2006)

Reading through this thread, I had to scratch my head at some of the comments... More people need to be made aware of the fact that the Haldex coupling and the rear differential are essentially separate components. The Haldex coupling kind of acts like a center differential, albeit with a much more "active" and informed role than a traditional center diff. But the rear differential is still a differential, and feeding it torque more often through a modified Haldex coupling isn't going to change the nature of the differential. Then "when" and "how much" of the torque delivery may change the driving dynamic, as you no longer have the Haldex coupling acting as a gatekeeper and forcing FWD most of the time. So modifying the Haldex coupling won't do anything to the diff, and certainly wont turn it into a "locked diff" Laszlo (wait, what? Someone from 034 Motorsports who doesn't know what they're talking about??? SHOCKER!)


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## esoxlucios (Sep 17, 2009)

edgy said:


> Reading through this thread, I had to scratch my head at some of the comments... More people need to be made aware of the fact that the Haldex coupling and the rear differential are essentially separate components. The Haldex coupling . . . acts like a center differential.


x2


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## 034Motorsport (Apr 16, 2012)

edgy said:


> Reading through this thread, I had to scratch my head at some of the comments... More people need to be made aware of the fact that the Haldex coupling and the rear differential are essentially separate components. The Haldex coupling kind of acts like a center differential, albeit with a much more "active" and informed role than a traditional center diff. But the rear differential is still a differential, and feeding it torque more often through a modified Haldex coupling isn't going to change the nature of the differential. Then "when" and "how much" of the torque delivery may change the driving dynamic, as you no longer have the Haldex coupling acting as a gatekeeper and forcing FWD most of the time. So modifying the Haldex coupling won't do anything to the diff, and certainly wont turn it into a "locked diff" Laszlo (wait, what? Someone from 034 Motorsports who doesn't know what they're talking about??? SHOCKER!)


I wasn't talking about the rear diff, and I don't think anyone else was, either.


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

YHW said:


> That is said for the peak pressure. If you understand how the cam plate is working, you understand that the precious peak pressure in created when launching the car, hard acceleration, corner exit, etc... Theses are all the conditions where you are increasing the wear on your system when you car is equipped with a OEM controller especially when your car is modified to output high horsepower numbers. The best way to ruin a Haldex unit in one afternoon: Go for a track racing event with somewhere like 350 hp or more with a stock haldex unit. You are toasting the clutches after every tight corner exit.



Thanks for replying to this thread YHW. Does your insert help reduce the wear of the haldex system in 350hp+ set ups? Or does it just allow for better distribution between rear and front traction? The reason I ask, Marcus_Aerelius has been putting his haldex unit with many tight turns and low end tq many afternoons and he has been using the stock haldex unit and controller without your plug. I am wondering how you came up with the 350hp figure. Obviously, the Haldex wasn't designed for 350hp+ but seems to be taking the abuse.


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## YHW (Nov 9, 2013)

18T_BT said:


> Thanks for replying to this thread YHW. Does your insert help reduce the wear of the haldex system in 350hp+ set ups? Or does it just allow for better distribution between rear and front traction? The reason I ask, Marcus_Aerelius has been putting his haldex unit with many tight turns and low end tq many afternoons and he has been using the stock haldex unit and controller without your plug. I am wondering how you came up with the 350hp figure. Obviously, the Haldex wasn't designed for 350hp+ but seems to be taking the abuse.



Thank you for your comment. The idea was given more in order to illustrate what is a typical harmfull situation when the operation of the haldex clutch application is slow.

More a car is powerful, more the slip and heat created during the slipping engagement of the clutch is important. When we are talking of power around 350hp or more, we are talking about real impact on the car and drivetrain, compared to a 180hp or 225TT. These cars a well made and can endure quite a lot. But when you request that much from a stock drivetrain, you never know what could fail... CV axles, driveshaft, differentials, transmission, haldex unit... Track racing is one of the hardest situation because it's not a few hard launches at light signs on the street or couple of fast acceleration on the street. It's hard launches at WOT, lap after lap. 

Same thing for the time delay we had given. Depending on their actual wear it would be really surprising that you really succeed to burn a set of Haldex clutch in one afternoon exept if it's really your intention. Therefore, if you Haldex system is not set-up in consequence, it will wear faster. 


To sum up about our product in the fewest words possible, it basically does 2 things. It speeds up to the maximum the haldex clutch engagement and deliver a 50/50 ratio.

Hope it helps! Thanks


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

YHW said:


> ... The idea was given more in order to illustrate what is a typical harmfull situation when the operation of the haldex clutch application is slow.


I'm glad it was somebody else that asked the question, but you have to understand that you were the one saying categorically that having intermediate fluid pressure (OEM positively does) is a sure way of killing a haldex in one afternoon if racing with more than 350 TQ (which I've done very often for years now). The fact is you were downplaying the importance of intermediate pressure to bring the false notion that it's detrimental to the system, when an OEM or blue controller does it all day long (why does anyone think there is motorized pin that constantly regulates the pressure ? It's simply because there is a need to vary the pressure at all time to match the dynamic conditions) 




YHW said:


> To sum up about our product in the fewest words possible, it basically does 2 things. It speeds up to the maximum the haldex clutch engagement and deliver a 50/50 ratio.


I've given up trying to argue or explain to you that the constant "50/50 ratio" and "maximum clutch engagement" concepts that you keep on pushing is not a desirable function. But what everyone else is saying/asking is why in the world would one want to take a smart dynamic system and make rigid? There is this idea floating around that being primarily FWD-based and then sending power to the rear only when needed is less than desirable. Why do people think all modern AWD systems (including Audi that smartly upgraded from the archaic Torsen Quattro) went that route? Basically, you want to have the ability of intermediate pressure locking your clutch plates (talking about haldex coupling not diff before someone else gets all crazy about that) because in the majority of real life situations, that's what is an ADVANTAGE. 

What you're not saying to people is that with an intermediate fluid bypass restriction (instead of a totally restricted one like your insert), the control system still has the motorized pin active and fully functional. In situations where full fluid pressure or clutch engagement is really needed, the ECU sends a signal and the motor activates the pin which restricts the bypass fully. All this rubbish about intermediate pressure being detrimental makes no sense. Yes, it would be detrimental if locked in, sending pressure at intermediate state... but the functionality of the controller is retained and does the restriction as intended, and only when needed. 

I have spent countless hours launching, taking turns, and powering out of corners (that's with 315 race rubber on all 4), and there is nothing wrong really with the OEM system. It's just mapped to be a little reactive and the response could be more immediate. Anyone that can make sense of things will realize that slightly enhancing the characteristics (not locking them in full state) is what's needed. You can choose to be one of these companies that refuse to think that there is room for improvement in their product, or you can be one the successful ones that's always looking for ways to have a better product. It's your pic to define who you are as a new company bringing a new product to our community, but know that this particular community is full of resources and can spot when things aren't right. Best of luck to you!. :beer:


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

Max-

Reading your last post (^^^) gives me the impression we could bypass the "brains" of the controller and figure out how to have a rheostat that controls pin position on the OEM unit's pin position.

This would give us fluid bypass when we wanted it and a variable control on the pin for selective engagement, (example 3v = 37%. )

Maybe this is the path this thread should take rather than arguing with YHW.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

ejg3855 said:


> Max-
> 
> Reading your last post (^^^) gives me the impression we could bypass the "brains" of the controller and figure out how to have a rheostat that controls pin position on the OEM unit's pin position.
> 
> ...


Great idea. Im sure there are a few hydraulic applications that could work. Ive had the chance to work on some pretty cool hydraulic systems. This could be achieved pretty easily.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

ejg3855 said:


> Max-
> 
> Reading your last post (^^^) gives me the impression we could bypass the "brains" of the controller and figure out how to have a rheostat that controls pin position on the OEM unit's pin position.
> 
> ...


This is the approach I'm working on with Mike at MCPi, but I still feel that there's not a better way to create a control logic than using inputs from various sensors reporting to the ECU.That's also why I'm also trying a parallel mechanical modification with the spare unit that involves re-gearing the pin on the motor's pinion. This would allow the normal functionality to be retained (using the regular sensor based control logic) but the fluid restriction being boosted due to the modified position of the pin. In theory this should work as follow: say the OEM control logic senses that 25% pin restriction is needed for a road condition and commands it to the motor, 75% is actually achieved because the pin had a 25% gearing increase already dialed statically (all arbitrary numbers to illustrate what I'm saying). The end result would be an OEM smart logic that isn't completely restricting fluid bypass and forcing "50/50 coupling engagement all the time (Think OEM+ or OEM ++ depending on the aggressiveness or the gearing modification). Thoughts? 

BTW direction this thread took afaik was dictated by YHW coming in as if they can be the only one with tooling and expertise to modify the coupling's controller. I know the OP was their tester guy and this was suppose to be their infomercial, but at least it turned out better here than the R32 forum where basically all the posts were saying GTFO with this hack!


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

Max-

I agree, I like the direction the thread has taken. 

My requirements from a haldex system are much different than the TT people, while we own a TT I am looking to this thread because I want a system that works without sensors. 

I have come to a few ideas for me:

- Have a Hobbs switch that engages the Haldex unit under boost (with a variable engagement setting )

- Have a Always on feature ( at a specific setting )

- I don't see much desire for engangement under breaking for my application


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I've given up trying to argue or explain to you that the constant "50/50 ratio" and "maximum clutch engagement" concepts that you keep on pushing is not a desirable function. But what everyone else is saying/asking is why in the world would one want to take a smart dynamic system and make rigid?


Because there seems to be lots of demand for a product that isn't designed around daily/commuter functionality. How Haldex functions when parallel parking means nothing to folks who are building road course, or drag cars. 



ejg3855 said:


> My requirements from a haldex system are much different than the TT people, while we own a TT I am looking to this thread because I want a system that works without sensors.


I'm with you.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Jeebus said:


> Because there seems to be lots of demand for a product that isn't designed around daily/commuter functionality. How Haldex functions when parallel parking meanings nothing to folks who are building road course, or drag cars.


Trust me, I'm part of that racing demographic. The problem with something like an AWD control is that there are plenty of racing situations too (maybe not drag where steering, throttle modulation, and braking inputs aren't part of the equation), where an intelligent dynamic system is beneficial over a permanently locked one. Segments like hairpins, tight decreasing radius corners, sharp transitions etc. makes for horrible dynamics with 50/50 coupling don't you think? What about long front straights (in between corners) why do you need to need/want to be sending power to the rear if you can avoid it? What about slippery surfaces, rain, snow, etc. where even the great Ari Vatanen would choose a functioning intelligent system over a less dynamic one because of the performance and practicality benefits? If it was only a parallel parking thing, everyone would want their AWD to be permanently engaged at full capability, but there is more than that involved in most applications and use of a car (racing or commuter based). At least that's how I see it! :beer:


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Trust me, I'm part of that racing demographic. The problem with something like an AWD control is that there are plenty of racing situations too (maybe not drag where steering, throttle modulation, and braking inputs aren't part of the equation), where an intelligent dynamic system is beneficial over a permanently locked one. Segments like hairpins, tight decreasing radius corners, sharp transitions etc. makes for horrible dynamics with 50/50 coupling don't you think? What about long front straights (in between corners) why do you need to need/want to be sending power to the rear if you can avoid it? What about slippery surfaces, rain, snow, etc. where even the great Ari Vatanen would choose a functioning intelligent system over a less dynamic one because of the performance and practicality benefits? If it was only a parallel parking thing, everyone would want their AWD to be permanently engaged at full capability, but there is more than that involved in most applications and use of a car (racing or commuter based). At least that's how I see it! :beer:



Maybe I've confused something here. It's my understanding that this product instead of slipping 70/30 or 80/20 or whatever, it just engages 50/50 immediately. So instead of the clutch packs constantly slipping and putting intermittent power to the rear wheels it puts full 50/50 even when the slightest amount would be sent in stock form. So if there's no need for power to the rear it's just FWD, as soon as any power is required at the rear it engages to the full 50/50 and skips the entire slipping/partial load process. 

I'm new to Haldex and I'm just trying to figure out what's best for my needs. I don't recall reading that this makes the system full 50/50 lock at all times.... Maybe I've totally misunderstood what this product is doing.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Jeebus said:


> Maybe I've confused something here. It's my understanding that this product instead of slipping 70/30 or 80/20 or whatever, it just engages 50/50 immediately. So instead of the clutch packs constantly slipping and putting intermittent power to the rear wheels it puts full 50/50 even when the slightest amount would be sent in stock form. So if there's no need for power to the rear it's just FWD, as soon as any power is required at the rear it engages to the full 50/50 and skips the entire slipping/partial load process.
> 
> I'm new to Haldex and I'm just trying to figure out what's best for my needs. I don't recall reading that this makes the system full 50/50 lock at all times.... Maybe I've totally misunderstood what this product is doing.


50/50 all the time


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

Roger /\ 

I've read so much on this sh!t over the past few weeks that I obviously missed that. However I did just re read and noticed this "Contact us if you are doing that kind of project and we will tell you how to easily wire your electronics and enable to select a front/rear 50/50 traction or FWD traction just by the flick of an ON/OFF switch."

So, although not ideal for road course as no ones going to be flicking a switch on every straight away, it does give a small amount of flexibility.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

^^^ and what most people still don't get is that the ability to have 70/30 or 100/0 in fractions of a second, depending on the situation, is what is desirable, not 50/50 on all occasions. The only problem I see with stock is the rate at which the transfer is made from sensor inputs, and it could be a little bit more aggressive with rear bias (being pro-active on TQ request aka throttle pedal position like the competition controller would be plus, but we can't ask for too much). :beer:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> , but we can't ask for too much). :beer:


Why not? :banghead:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

20v master said:


> Why not? :banghead:


Because, short of succeeding with the re-mapping, it's a tall task to ask this much from mechanical modifications to stock controllers. I know everything is doable with the right budget and skills, but if throttle position in conjunction with wheel position sensor feedback could be easily be integrated together to control the fluid pressure, there would be competition in the haldex control segment right now (not a dollar-sucking HPA monopoly).


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> ...The only problem I see with stock is the rate at which the transfer is made from sensor inputs, and it could be a little bit more aggressive with rear bias (being pro-active on TQ request aka throttle pedal position like the competition controller...



I would be nice to have someone with the right coding experience take up this challenge


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

The code is the easy part, and extracting the code. 

The hard part is defining the code and map addresses and axis addresses


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## TToxic (Nov 15, 2008)

YHW makes a plug - its works. YHW also offers a toggle to turn unit off - it works. YHW sells parts to repair your Haldex unit - they work. Do the math folks. If this is what YHW has come up with there space shuttle technology its become abundantly clear the NASA like minds are not in house......


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

TToxic said:


> YHW makes a plug - its works. YHW also offers a toggle to turn unit off - it works. YHW sells parts to repair your Haldex unit - they work. Do the math folks. If this is what YHW has come up with there space shuttle technology its become abundantly clear the NASA like minds are not in house......


Very humorous, but the logic kind of checks out! :laugh:


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

what are the electronic out puts the system uses to do things?

the pump is 12v and is always on correct?

then there is the motor that controls the pin on the stock unit?

so there is two outputs that control the whole system?

excuse my grammer, Google thinks it knows what I want.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

ejg3855 said:


> what are the electronic out puts the system uses to do things?
> 
> the pump is 12v and is always on correct?
> 
> ...


Yes, there is pre-charge pump (V181) mounted on the coupling housing that receives a 12v from the control unit as soon as 400 rpm is exceeded. The controller itself use a stepper motor (V184) that is geared to the regulating pin.

I believe that the supplied voltage to the stepper motor is not a constant one (haven't tested it, so don't quote me on that). For example, I have documentation from Haldex that shows how input from the fluid temp sensor (G249) is used, not only as a safety device (after fluid temp of 100*C is reached), but also to regulate the stepper motor based on fluid viscosity by varying the supplied voltage. 

To answer your last question, yes there are two main output that controls the system's live operation. However, there are many safety inputs (brake light switch, hand brake switch, and controller fluid temp sensor G271), that when given to the controller, also make these outputs not fire, regardless of wheel speed sensor difference (G44), longitudinal acceleration sensor (G249), and throttle position sensor (G79) that are normally used by the control logic board to trigger operation. :beer:

PS: I have some wiring diagrams and documentation that may help you in your project. Send me a PM and I'll send them to you.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

I feel that keeping all these other discussions in this thread is not good thing as this thread is about reviewing and discussing the product from YHW. All we're doing really is bringing more exposure to the product when some of the topics engaged have nothing to do with the insert. I'm going to start a Haldex coupling and control thread where we can discuss all these things in a more appropriate manner. 

But before I leave the house, this is what I've gathered from buying this YHW product (take what I got from it for what it is). It's a machined plug that fully restricts the return bore in the regulating valve. By doing so, it doesn't allow fluid to re-circulate (regardless of the regulating pin position) and maximum pressure is always built in the system. This in turns give full pressure on the clutch plates and provide maximum coupling for rear engagement. If you want full coupling in every conditions, this product will work as advertised and deliver. If the use you have for your car (like me and many others) require the full intelligence of the system and its dynamic capabilities, there are some obvious disadvantages that are hard to ignore. 

Personally, what completely pushed me away from the concept of this product (as it stands), is the implication to the pressure limiting valve. The pressure limiting valve is a mechanical safety feature in the system that functions just like a pop-off valve (spring loaded ball that pops open if the pressure becomes too high to protect the system). This is an important safety feature, and eliminating it is not something that I"d chance on a car that is going to see a lot of cornering or abuse.


*
This is a blowout of the device, and I highlighted how fluid would circulate through (reducing pressure and disengaging the coupling) in case of pressure getting too high. (it is to be noted that this safety feature works regardless of the position of the motorized regulating pin)

*














*
And to fully illustrate how the control system functions in relation to this plug, here are some schematics of the fluid circulation in the controller and how it affects the coupling. You can see how fluid circulates through the bore of regulating valve, and how low, intermediate, and full restriction is normally created by the motorized regulating pin.* 


*Showing low, intermediate and high pressure*











*
Individually showing low fluid restriction and full fluid circulation
*










*
Intermediate pressure with 50% fluid circulation (motorized regulating pin half way up)
*









*
Full fluid pressure and bypass circulation fully restricted (regulating pin fully extended to block the bore and providing maximum coupling)
*











*
Below I drew in red what the modified plug extension does. As you can see, there is blockage of the return bore and maximum fluid pressure is built constantly. 
*











*


I know that it has been attempted to downplay having intermediate pressure/coupling, and most likely will be again. But I think that people can form their own opinion based on what is published by Haldex themselves on the real life operation of their design. I think it clearly shows how intermediate pressure and rear engagement is used all the time (even with the stock controller) in many real life conditions.*


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## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

Thanks for all of that. 

So essentially the OE controller, and any of the electronic standalone controllers are just controlling the "Position Motor" and adjusting the "regulating valve"? I do understand that there's lots of feedback going into that, but I'm just trying to understand what's going on. 

Also from those diagrams I don't understand how turning the pump on/off affects the pressure after the YHW bolt. By the looks of the diagrams with the bolt in place it just blocks the fluid like a hydraulic brake allowing nothing to go either way.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

audrino?

excuse my grammer, Google thinks it knows what I want.


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## LF_gottron (Jan 24, 2013)

FYI guys mine still works amazing. 

k thx bye


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I'm glad it was somebody else that asked the question, but you have to understand that you were the one saying categorically that having intermediate fluid pressure (OEM positively does) is a sure way of killing a haldex in one afternoon if racing with more than 350 TQ (which I've done very often for years now). The fact is you were downplaying the importance of intermediate pressure to bring the false notion that it's detrimental to the system, when an OEM or blue controller does it all day long (why does anyone think there is motorized pin that constantly regulates the pressure ? It's simply because there is a need to vary the pressure at all time to match the dynamic conditions)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not to have come to this thread late, very late...but I don't think this simple fact could have been spelled out better. Max hits the nail on the head. 

You really have to understand the complexities of the Haldex system and how INTERGRATED it is within the ABS, ESP, EDL, and even engine ECU systems. While there could be a "standalone" version made controlled by a variety of switches, mechanical controls, you will still have a system that was designed to do one thing while your asking it to do another. Also, it negates the advantages of this type of system in the first place. 

If I wasn't so fearful of having a dead controller arrive back at my place I'd gladly lend my Comp/Orange unit out to have the coding pulled and someone start figuring this out. 

While I think this device would be a great thing for cars that are "swap" candidates and for those that don't want to do with the electronics of the install of "true" haldex...I fear what could happen for anyone thinking that this is a way to get "Torsen" and fix an otherwise much more advanced/smarter system. 

Very informative thus far though...

Joe


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## GTIR67 (Jun 9, 2010)

LF_gottron said:


> FYI guys mine still works amazing.
> 
> k thx bye


This is what i want to hear.



My main concern with the haldex system in my car is that, when im driving aggressively and the car loses grip it will begin to understeer, and then if you let up off the throttle, the rear disengages and the car will "snap" from this weight transfer (almost feels like lift off oversteer) and give me odd handling characteristics.
---if i keep my foot in the throttle so the rear stays engaged, i can work the car into oversteer by ripping the wheel slightly. and then correct it and maintain my line.

this disengagement feature when you let off or hit the brakes (this is where heel-toeing becomes impossible) is my biggest issue while driving hard.

i guess i got spoiled by quattro when i daily'd my passat (4motion). I could drift that car in 3 feet of snow with minimal effort.


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## BeasTToftheEast (Sep 20, 2007)

Is this project still alive?


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## LF_gottron (Jan 24, 2013)

TTguy30 said:


> Is this project still alive?


I'm still daily driving with mine. no problems


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## BeasTToftheEast (Sep 20, 2007)

How long has that been for? I apologize if I'm misinformed I'm just curious how good of an upgrade this is for the Haldex system.


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## carsluTT (Dec 31, 2004)

wow, lots of info in here. just read the majority of posts. be awesome to see all this foot work be put to use.


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## BeasTToftheEast (Sep 20, 2007)

How many miles have been put on your setup since the install?


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## BeasTToftheEast (Sep 20, 2007)

Without knowing how much mileage was put on this setup the amount of time is irrelevant imho


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## LF_gottron (Jan 24, 2013)

TTguy30 said:


> Without knowing how much mileage was put on this setup the amount of time is irrelevant imho


everything is documented in my build thread, i installed at 111,000 miles and I'm roughly over 115,000. so it has between 4-5k miles on it right now


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## BeasTToftheEast (Sep 20, 2007)

O ok cool, well the biggest things will be when it comes time to do your Haldex interval service, then you will see if any excess wear or damage has taken place as part of this upgrade.


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## BeasTToftheEast (Sep 20, 2007)

Has anyone else done this upgrade yet?

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk


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## eurotuningimports (Nov 29, 2006)

So, if I understand, this is for make the car work 50/50 with the traction control on.... 
The same if I turn off the esp right?
So this would be safe for track, nor for daily because if I loose control the car would not help me out....right?


Enviado desde mi C6906 mediante Tapatalk


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

eurotuningimports said:


> So, if I understand, this is for make the car work 50/50 with the traction control on....
> The same if I turn off the esp right?
> So this would be safe for track, nor for daily because if I loose control the car would not help me out....right?


This has nothing to do with ASR/ESP. When the system detects slip and tries to engage Haldex to whatever percentage it calculates, the mechanical insert will override the pressure command/request and give you 50/50 distribution. If you are counting on ESP to help you when/if you lose control on the road, I hope it is at slow speeds because the ESP that comes on Mk1 TT's and Mk4 VW's is very crude and an early example of the technology. I wouldn't count on it for anything other than keeping an understeering wife from hitting a curb, and that's about a 35/65 shot. :laugh:


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## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

:laugh:


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

20v master said:


> This has nothing to do with ASR/ESP. When the system detects slip and tries to engage Haldex to whatever percentage it calculates, the mechanical insert will override the pressure command/request and give you 50/50 distribution. If you are counting on ESP to help you when/if you lose control on the road, I hope it is at slow speeds because the ESP that comes on Mk1 TT's and Mk4 VW's is very crude and an early example of the technology. I wouldn't count on it for anything other than keeping an understeering wife from hitting a curb, and that's about a 35/65 shot. :laugh:



Nearly got me killed more than once on the track when it "cut throttle" when tracking out over the alligators. ESP off all the time :laugh:


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## BeasTToftheEast (Sep 20, 2007)

I really want to try this I'm just paranoid about causing damage

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk


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## BeasTToftheEast (Sep 20, 2007)

Has anyone had this upgrade long enough to have done a haldex service and seen if there was any damage or negative effects from it? That's pretty much the only way for the rest of us to know if this is a good option or not.


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## LF_gottron (Jan 24, 2013)

Just an update. This Powertrak insert is still going hard!


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

How many miles and type of driving?


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## LF_gottron (Jan 24, 2013)

DeckManDubs said:


> How many miles and type of driving?


7k or so. pretty normal driving. step on it every once in a while


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

LF_gottron said:


> 7k or so. pretty normal driving. step on it every once in a while


Report back after another 20k


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

DeckManDubs said:


> Report back after another 20k


And/or some real performance driving. As far as I can tell, most (if not all) full-lock engagement related failures that happen prematurely are from R32 guys that road race their cars with the old orange/comp controllers. Real abuse combined with full rear engagement permanently is what is a concern, not granny driving... opcorn:


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## Tempes_TT (Oct 24, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> As far as I can tell, most (if not all) full-lock engagement related failures that happen prematurely are from R32 guys that road race their cars with the old orange/comp controllers.


So what kind of failures are we talking about? Typical pump failures due to constant abuse under full load, or things more related along the lines of clutch packs? Now I understand there probably isnt much, if any, way to completely prevent premature failure if we plan on increasing the aggressiveness of the system, so would the blue controller (or equivalent) be the answer to get a happy medium?

I also feel like this insert is kind of the "crank the wastegate nut for more boost" solution for our haldex. :sly:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Tempes_TT said:


> So what kind of failures are we talking about? Typical pump failures due to constant abuse under full load, or things more related along the lines of clutch packs?


I'd like to know as well, as I don't follow the R32 trends. I have an orange controller in my race car, that I'm hoping to put a motor in next week time permitting, and even though the car won't be driven much, I'm just wondering if the benefits are even worth it with the age of these cars and the mileage on used parts that are out there.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> And/or some real performance driving. As far as I can tell, most (if not all) full-lock engagement related failures that happen prematurely are from R32 guys that road race their cars with the old orange/comp controllers. Real abuse combined with full rear engagement permanently is what is a concern, not granny driving... opcorn:


Yup! I know mine will be in need of a rebuild by the end of the season. 10,000 track miles is way tougher than any street driving.



Tempes_TT said:


> I also feel like this insert is kind of the "crank the wastegate nut for more boost" solution for our haldex. :sly:


Pretty much!




20v master said:


> I'd like to know as well, as I don't follow the R32 trends. I have an orange controller in my race car, that I'm hoping to put a motor in next week time permitting, and even though the car won't be driven much, I'm just wondering if the benefits are even worth it with the age of these cars and the mileage on used parts that are out there.


Adam, as Max stated, lots of the R32 guys that are heavy into track days seem to roast their controllers/packs/bearings (If I was a betting man, I would put my money on driven hard, put away wet with only seasonally or bi-seasonally changing fluids). Not many TT owners do tons of track time, so I think this is why our cars tend to do better than the R32's when it comes to wear, and having an older average owner age also helps. I have some pretty serous track time, but change fluids every event because I am anal about trying to maintain the best longevity out of an old drivetrain. I have 166k with the past 10k being all track miles. I have about 30k on the comp controller.


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## Golfo20VTFSI (Nov 11, 2013)

Sorry for refloating .
Some experience more after doing more kilometers ?
Breakdowns ?
Premature wear ?
Thank You!


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

With Haldex solutions readily available now at reasonable pricing (due to competition), I don't think it's worth monkeying around with mechanical alterations anymore. With that said, I'm in too for long term results/reviews by users (hopefully it's not just from the single member that is basically used by YHW as a marketing tool).


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Funny this thread came up again... I ordered an insert from a European company last week and got it today. I'm installing it in a few minutes but won't have the rest of the drivetrain hooked up to test it for a few weeks or so. I'll report back when i's operational though :beer:


Looks like the same product as the Powertrak Insert. Better price on this one though...


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## Golfo20VTFSI (Nov 11, 2013)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> With Haldex solutions readily available now at reasonable pricing (due to competition), I don't think it's worth monkeying around with mechanical alterations anymore. With that said, I'm in too for long term results/reviews by users (hopefully it's not just from the single member that is basically used by YHW as a marketing tool).


What options do I have?
One generation Haldex race is no longer sold .

€ 435
http://www.sqsracing.com/produkt/314:407:haldex-regulator-controler-valve

Thank You


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Golfo20VTFSI said:


> What options do I have?
> One generation Haldex race is no longer sold .
> 
> € 435
> ...


http://www.3zero3motorsports.com/st...n-haldex-controller-gen-1-mk1-vw-audi-mk4-r32


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## Golfo20VTFSI (Nov 11, 2013)

All_Euro said:


> Funny this thread came up again... I ordered an insert from a European company last week and got it today. I'm installing it in a few minutes but won't have the rest of the drivetrain hooked up to test it for a few weeks or so. I'll report back when i's operational though :beer:
> 
> 
> Looks like the same product as the Powertrak Insert. Better price on this one though...


You'll tell you us .

A little reading .

regards

http://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/view...id=f85c7eb422ad46faea38ae5c45e656e0&start=210


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

DeckManDubs said:


> http://www.3zero3motorsports.com/st...n-haldex-controller-gen-1-mk1-vw-audi-mk4-r32



Yep, and there is also the UM remap flashes as a simple "do and forget about" option.

Direct manufacturer link to both options:

http://www.unitedmotorsport.net/per...x-software/haldex-gen-1-performance-software/

http://www.hpamotorsports.com/blog.html


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## Golfo20VTFSI (Nov 11, 2013)

DeckManDubs said:


> http://www.3zero3motorsports.com/st...n-haldex-controller-gen-1-mk1-vw-audi-mk4-r32


Thanks but high price for me.
$ 699
€ 616 + 21 % + customs europe tranporte = 900 € . 

a greeting


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

esoxlucios said:


> A good starting point (what I use each fluid change) is 220ml of the Power Shift and 50ml of the Slip Lock. I then test out by getting up to operating temperature and doing tight circles in a parking lot. If I continue to hear binding, I add an ounce at a time of Slip Lock until it's gone.
> 
> To repeat, I've been doing this for 5-6 years, and my winter performance is great.


Just quoted this in my local Euro forum when the issue came up - thanks for the tip :beer:


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## Golfo20VTFSI (Nov 11, 2013)

Hello again.
I need a driver which fits the use I give my car circuit. ( I do not care always go 50/50 )
The youth of the HPA seems the suitable .
Greetings !
It is an ECU with different programs that act on the Haldex unit ?
Excuse google translator


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

In this thread, we have this insert working in a TT that already had an active Haldex system... I would like to try it out on my GLI that now has a TT 225 drivetrain but a non-active Haldex system. I'm just starting to look into what is needed to make this happen - has anyone here done this already?

Helpful tips appreciated :beer:


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## heuer21 (Jul 22, 2006)

just installed mine...

http://www.hpamotorsports.com/product_haldex.html


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

I ended up wiring the yellow wire (+) directly to the fuse panel and ran the black wire (-) to a nearby common ground... this activates the precharge pump when the key is on - so full time AWD. With 50ml of Red Line LSD friction modifier  I've got no binding whatsoever... I'll try 30-40ml next time to see if that will do it.

The original precharge pump needed to be rebuilt but rather than order parts to repair the old pump, I just ordered a new one for about $30 extra from a seller named *haldexpart* on ebay. Same guy I bought the Sport Insert from - fellow enthusiast, quick shipping and no funny surprises when the parts arrived :thumbup:


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## Gonzalo1495 (Feb 2, 2015)

All_Euro said:


> I ended up wiring the yellow wire (+) directly to the fuse panel and ran the black wire (-) to a nearby common ground... this activates the precharge pump when the key is on - so full time AWD. With 50ml of Red Line LSD friction modifier  I've got no binding whatsoever... I'll try 30-40ml next time to see if that will do it.
> 
> The original precharge pump needed to be rebuilt but rather than order parts to repair the old pump, I just ordered a new one for about $30 extra from a seller named *haldexpart* on ebay. Same guy I bought the Sport Insert from - fellow enthusiast, quick shipping and no funny surprises when the parts arrived :thumbup:


So essentially, you wired up the precharge pump to an existing power source when the key is on, and along with the insert, gives you fulltime 50/50 split correct?
I went a different route myself, I wired the Haldex power line to a switch, that way I can turn the AWD on or off as needed, however when it's on, it's still up to the haldex to determine when to distribute the 50/50. Your version seems to be the next extreme haha

Also, car behaves A LOT better post insert install. Launches like a rocket, response is not laggy like before, it's an instant 50/50 transfer which is :thumbup:. Also seems to understeer less on fast turns IMO. I haven't had it installed for too long these are just initial observations.


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

Gonzalo1495 said:


> So essentially, you wired up the precharge pump to an existing power source when the key is on, and along with the insert, gives you fulltime 50/50 split correct?
> I went a different route myself, I wired the Haldex power line to a switch, that way I can turn the AWD on or off as needed, however when it's on, it's still up to the haldex to determine when to distribute the 50/50. Your version seems to be the next extreme haha
> 
> Also, car behaves A LOT better post insert install. Launches like a rocket, response is not laggy like before, it's an instant 50/50 transfer which is :thumbup:. Also seems to understeer less on fast turns IMO. I haven't had it installed for too long these are just initial observations.


Exactly - I turn the key on and the haldex system is ready. Full time 50/50. I haven't found any negatives to this yet since the friction modifier prevents binding but something may surface, who knows. Switching between fwd and awd should give a little better mileage but I haven't noticed a decrease.

I've heard of people wiring a switch to toggle between fwd and awd but having stock haldex active and then full time 50/50 with the switch on is a first. Have you found any negatives to leaving the haldex in 50/50 all the time? I have some more work to do on my car before I can really test things out but nice to hear about the difference in response - great product for the price.


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## bwdz (Jan 21, 2015)

All_Euro said:


> I ended up wiring the yellow wire (+) directly to the fuse panel and ran the black wire (-) to a nearby common ground... this activates the precharge pump when the key is on - so full time AWD. With 50ml of Red Line LSD friction modifier  I've got no binding whatsoever... I'll try 30-40ml next time to see if that will do it.
> 
> The original precharge pump needed to be rebuilt but rather than order parts to repair the old pump, I just ordered a new one for about $30 extra from a seller named *haldexpart* on ebay. Same guy I bought the Sport Insert from - fellow enthusiast, quick shipping and no funny surprises when the parts arrived :thumbup:


Activating the pre charge pump does not engage the AWD. The pump provides the pressure but the control only sends it there when needed so it is the controller that would actuate your AWD


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

bwdz said:


> Activating the pre charge pump does not engage the AWD. The pump provides the pressure but the control only sends it there when needed so it is the controller that would actuate your AWD


When used in combination with the insert an activated pump engages the haldex clutch packs for full 50/50 until it's turned off.


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## Gonzalo1495 (Feb 2, 2015)

All_Euro said:


> Exactly - I turn the key on and the haldex system is ready. Full time 50/50. I haven't found any negatives to this yet since the friction modifier prevents binding but something may surface, who knows. Switching between fwd and awd should give a little better mileage but I haven't noticed a decrease.
> 
> I've heard of people wiring a switch to toggle between fwd and awd but having stock haldex active and then full time 50/50 with the switch on is a first. Have you found any negatives to leaving the haldex in 50/50 all the time? I have some more work to do on my car before I can really test things out but nice to hear about the difference in response - great product for the price.


Well I have found that it's a LOT more aggressive now, especially from a dig. Turning actually suits my style better, as you can feel the rear pushing alongside the front, which in a performance perspective would affect lap times, but then again the instant response of the system along with aggressive power split compared to stock would allow for faster corner exits and recoup most if not all of that imo. 

And wow, I can't imagine fulltime awd, sounds insane. And yes, since I can switch between FWD and AWD, I've noticed a significant MPG increase, if my display wasn't ****ed I could tell you exactly how much, but it feels like a 3-5mpg increase:thumbup:


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## GrampTT (Apr 10, 2015)

bwdz is right the pre charge pump does not supply enough pressure to engage the clutches. The pre charge pump actually runs continuosly when eng rpm is above 400, so wiring to ignition switch only allows pump to additionally run with eng not running.


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## Gonzalo1495 (Feb 2, 2015)

GrampTT said:


> bwdz is right the pre charge pump does not supply enough pressure to engage the clutches. The pre charge pump actually runs continuosly when eng rpm is above 400, so wiring to ignition switch only allows pump to additionally run with eng not running.


That's what I thought as well, seeing as how it's the controller that regulates the pressure to engage the clutch packs. It seemed like a good idea though, I was hoping it was true somehow.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

GrampTT said:


> bwdz is right the pre charge pump does not supply enough pressure to engage the clutches. The pre charge pump actually runs continuosly when eng rpm is above 400, so wiring to ignition switch only allows pump to additionally run with eng not running.


That's correct, but that is with the standard plug. The insert simulates a standard controller that is somewhat already activated. 



Gonzalo1495 said:


> That's what I thought as well, seeing as how it's the controller that regulates the pressure to engage the clutch packs. It seemed like a good idea though, I was hoping it was true somehow.


The pre-charge pump is like a pressure primer, once the system is pirmed on a normal untouched controller, any movement of the motorized pin and there is enough pressure to provide clutchpack lock up. Therefore, once the insert is used, as soon as the pre-charge pump primes the system, the clutchpack is locked.


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## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

All_Euro said:


> With 50ml of Red Line LSD friction modifier  I've got no binding whatsoever... I'll try 30-40ml next time to see if that will do it.


Curious how this works? I can only figure that the friction modifier allows the plates to slip enough to prevent binding? What prevents this slippage during say, a hard launch?


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## All_Euro (Jul 20, 2008)

ticketed2much said:


> Curious how this works? I can only figure that the friction modifier allows the plates to slip enough to prevent binding? What prevents this slippage during say, a hard launch?


Exactly, the friction modifier allows the clutch-packs to slip a little under low-load situations (rather than repeatedly grabbing and letting go) but once you hit the throttle the increased loading locks them up as normal.


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## GrampTT (Apr 10, 2015)

I'd like to share what I've learned about the Haldex Gen I,II,and III systems as there appears to be some misconceptions about their operation.

The electric charge pumps function is to ensure that the hydraulic system is primed (has no air in the system). It also ensures that the lifting piston is in contact with the lifting plate and the actuating piston is in contact with the the clutch package.

The lifting plate along with the lifting pistons (there are two ) form a mechanical pump which provides the pressure to the clutch actuating piston. The pistons and plate are annular in design with the plate attached to the output of the coupling and the pistons on the input. The lifting plate is undulating having four hills the lifting pistons ride on the plate by means of roller bearings. When there is a difference between the input and output the lifting piston rides up the hill ramp and forces fluid to the actuating piston engaging the clutches and we have AWD. When the input/ output speeds stabilize the pressure bleeds off and then FWD. This is why these systems are referred to as reactive. There must be slippage which causes input/output imbalance to achieve AWD.

The Hadex controller controls the amount of pressure on the clutch pack to account for varying road and driving conditions ( braking, tight cornering, reduced traction, acceleration etc.). The controller can bleed pressure from the lifting piston by means of a stepper motor regulating valve thereby controlling clutch pack pressure.

To speculate on the functioning of the Powerwork Insert. The insert is installed in the bore above the regulating valve and blocks the pressure from bleeding off the clutch actuating piston to some degree causing full clutch engagement when input/output imbalance occurs and probably sustains that pressure for some time after input/output speeds stabalize, until the pressure is bled off completely. If the insert compleletly blocks return pressure then there could be a hydraulic lock between the lifting piston and actuating piston, the clutches would remain engaged in AWD even when axle speeds equalize.

I apologize if this was to much.





Bob


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

^^^ Very good post Bob (something that's becoming rare in the TT forum nowadays)! You explained the dynamics of the haldex functioning perfectly. As I said a few post earlier (in layman's term nonetheless) the pre-charge pump should be seen a pressure primer while the controller dictates the actual clutch engagement by the amount of fluid it allows to bleed or bypass the system. 

Good luck however trying to explain or convince people that blocking the bore of the regulating valve is not the brightest idea (forcing the clutches to lock up and remain locked by not allowing pressure to bleed as intended). Everyone wants a cheap haldex performance upgrade without the negatives, therefore they will refuse to hear or process what these inserts imply to the inner working of the system. Thanks for posting! :beer:


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## TToxic (Nov 15, 2008)

Never to much Bob! :thumbup: In addition, for the guys putting a switch in place of Haldex fuse? Haldex themselves state this is not good even for dyno runs. The factual truth of the matter is your not getting any increase in mpg and damaging the unit, a costly one at that.


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## Gonzalo1495 (Feb 2, 2015)

TToxic said:


> Never to much Bob! :thumbup: In addition, for the guys putting a switch in place of Haldex fuse? Haldex themselves state this is not good even for dyno runs. The factual truth of the matter is your not getting any increase in mpg and damaging the unit, a costly one at that.


I really don't feel like re typing what I wrote on the TTforum about this, because frankly it was like a page long. So to put it simply, running the car in FWD only (switch off) does no harm to the car or the haldex unit. Haldex actually stated that only problems will arise when there is a difference in speed/rotation between the front and rear, in the case of the email you're referring to it's referring to a dynoing the car from just the front wheels. Lets try to actually read the things we quote mkay? 

The MPG argument is questionable, but I have seen an increase, whether that's placebo from having FWD on making me not push the car as hard may be something else. Just sharing my experience. :thumbup::beer:


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## TToxic (Nov 15, 2008)

No clue in regard to an email your referring to or page you wrote. I obtain my imfo from Haldex. I've rebuilt more of these units dating back from 2001 than I care to remember and I know them quite well. Simply throwing it out there to the switch crowd which btw is nothing new. Best of luck with your set-up


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## Gonzalo1495 (Feb 2, 2015)

TToxic said:


> No clue in regard to an email your referring to or page you wrote. I obtain my imfo from Haldex. I've rebuilt more of these units dating back from 2001 than I care to remember and I know them quite well. Simply throwing it out there to the switch crowd which btw is nothing new. Best of luck with your set-up


http://www.wak-tt.com/haldex/haldexfuse.html
Also that's cool, that still doesn't change the fact you're wrong or anything? :screwy: Just simply clarifying the truth so the masses know putting a switch is okay to do since there is no harm in doing so. Now if you wish to advise people not to dyno the car in FWD, I will completely agree with you.


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## TToxic (Nov 15, 2008)

Wait a moment you lost me here lol, we have to dyno in fwd pulling the fuse or switching off is what's not recommended. Pulling the rear plug is. Iam aware of the great Wak! Keep in mind that any imfo you get from Haldex is based simply on there unit and not how it works in concert with Audi traction control (more often than not) so yes you can switch, however if in switch off mode you find yourself in a less than desirable driving situation traction control will not perform to optimum performance especially with the plug. This is a recipe for disaster, you wanting to do with the car one thing the car ( traction control) actually has no clue simply put. This is why controllers or stand alone set-ups etc. are the safe best performing option. You may want to consider full disable of traction control all together, at least you would have a fighting chance in the accident prevention mode. My esp been disabled since 04 I don't care for it at all regardless of conditions. Nothing negative here to you at all.:thumbup::beer:


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## Gonzalo1495 (Feb 2, 2015)

TToxic said:


> Wait a moment you lost me here lol, we have to dyno in fwd pulling the fuse or switching off is what's not recommended. Pulling the rear plug is. Iam aware of the great Wak! Keep in mind that any imfo you get from Haldex is based simply on there unit and not how it works in concert with Audi traction control (more often than not) so yes you can switch, however if in switch off mode you find yourself in a less than desirable driving situation traction control will not perform to optimum performance especially with the plug. This is a recipe for disaster, you wanting to do with the car one thing the car ( traction control) actually has no clue simply put. This is why controllers or stand alone set-ups etc. are the safe best performing option. You may want to consider full disable of traction control all together, at least you would have a fighting chance in the accident prevention mode. My esp been disabled since 04 I don't care for it at all regardless of conditions. Nothing negative here to you at all.:thumbup::beer:


Oh okay, you just directly addressed the switch, which made it seem like you were implying it would cause damage. I have fully coded out my ESP so I have no problems so yes you are right there. You just didn't specify that was your concern from the beginning, that's why we had the mix up! And yeah no hard feelings, I just like to put out good info for others to benefit as how I found useful information looking back upon threads when I first got my TT. :thumbup:


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## matt92 (Jan 25, 2016)

*Powertrack insert installed*

Hi,

I'm a TT Mk1 3.2 french owner (since March 2009), and I have ordered the Powertrack insert from YHW a few days ago, and installed yesterday. 

My feedback on the behaviour of the car. 

When driving cool, no real difference, but much more reactive when driving hard, and not disengaging under when releasing accelerator. No binding at all.


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