# Cooking Corners



## AEGTI3913 (May 13, 2010)

I'm running ATE pads and flat Zimmerman rotors.

Last season I ran a track weekend with my GTI up at Calabogie in Canada (great track). I had the brakes smoking a little at one point on day one. Cooled down, no further issues. But then on day two, at time trials, second lap, fly into a corner, put my foot down, and had pressure but no braking. I pressed my foot further in panic, and my foot fell further, but no brakes. I went all four off, but luckily there was run-off, so I didn't hit anything.

It's the first time this had happened to me, and it got my attention. I want to replace the brakes before going back out this season, and hopefully have confidence in the brakes. Before these brakes I had Autotech slotted rotors and Mintex (can't remember color) pads. They were fine, but I wasn't tracking my car then, so who knows how they'd hold up.

I think I'd like to get some slotted rotors and some high-performance street pads that will work in winter and also hold up on the track.

Rotors I found:
http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-337_20AE--1.8T/Braking/Rotors/ES2189955/
http://www.racingbrake.com/GOLF-GTI-337-ED-20th-Anniv-FRONT-02-03-p/90781-111-1760.htm (anyone heard of racing brake?)

And for pads, I was kind of leaning in the EBC Green direction because I've heard they work well on the street but also hold up on the track.

One other thought. Someone suggested I may have boiled my brake fluid in that all-four-off incident at Calabogie. If that's true, is all I need a flush with a higher performance fluid? Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance for any advice. :thumbup:


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## EpicVW (Feb 10, 2000)

AEGTI3913 said:


> One other thought. Someone suggested I may have boiled my brake fluid in that all-four-off incident at Calabogie. If that's true, is all I need a flush with a higher performance fluid? Any suggestions?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any advice. :thumbup:


That's the ticket right there. Go with a flush and use a performance fluid with a high boiling point. Many use motul rbf600.

You will get higher performance with better pads/rotors, but it sounds like your fluid is the biggest issue right now. :thumbup:


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

The other thing that happens with mk4s is even more frustrating. Not sure what tires you're running, or how hard you're pushing into the corners - but the other possibility is that the calipers are torquing and the pads wear at an angle. If you're still on rubber bushings, you're probably running into some of this.

solution to the above problem (for a while) http://www.tyrolsport.com/brakes/tyrolsport-brake-caliper-stiffening-kit-for-vw/audi/

Did the brakes return to normal after, or were they still spongy? If the pads were smoking, then you probably glazed the pads as well. For track use - if you've got good pads, there is no need for slotted rotors, you'll just eat the pads quicker... if you're going to continue to run street pads, then they'll help, but still eat the pads quicker.



sorry for the disjointed nature of this post, still on my first cup of coffee.


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## AEGTI3913 (May 13, 2010)

Epic, KG, thanks for the replies.

(I probably should have mentioned all the suspension stuff in signature as well. I'm definitely pushing the car on the track. I'm often on three tires in corners, with the inside rear a foot off the ground. On a good day I'm rotating the rear just right for faster exits. Love the Shine setup.)

The brakes came back fine after that incident and I haven't had problems on the street with them. I'm sure they were probably glazed to some degree before and definitely after that event. They got tested that weekend for sure (and failed). Is the trick to preventing glazing just getting the right pad?

Thanks for Tyrolsport link. That kit looks interesting, and I know those guys make good stuff. I've been contemplating a Tyrolsport SMIC upgrade for over a year.

When my current brakes were put in at Shine, they definitely flushed in new brake fluid, and knew I was tracking the car, saying that it was a good fluid for the purpose. Although, I don't remember the specific fluid used. This time around I'll definitely request a high performance fluid and compare specs. Is there a disadvantage to using a higher boiling point fluid (like, race pads that don't work as well in the cold)?

I think the other thing I didn't mention that's relevant here is that last year was the first season I had chipped the ECU with the same brakes. This season, I've added a full turbo back high-flow exhaust. So now the car is even a bit quicker, so it needs to slow down better. 

Thanks again for any and all insight guys. :thumbup:


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

I noticed the front sway delete. Is it dead entirely or did you put something else up there? I swapped in an R front end, and tried running without a front sway for a bit, and ultimately tacked it back in. The car didn't quite transition quick enough for me... almost bit me a few times. In any case... 

The quicker you want to stop, the more expensive it's going to get. Even the tyrol setup, high temp brake fluid, and Carbotech XP12's - I still ate a set of front pads in about a day of track time. Mainly because of the torquing issue. If you want to actually stop, switch up to some multi piston deals.


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## AEGTI3913 (May 13, 2010)

KG18t said:


> I noticed the front sway delete. Is it dead entirely or did you put something else up there? I swapped in an R front end, and tried running without a front sway for a bit, and ultimately tacked it back in. The car didn't quite transition quick enough for me... almost bit me a few times. In any case...
> 
> The quicker you want to stop, the more expensive it's going to get. Even the tyrol setup, high temp brake fluid, and Carbotech XP12's - I still ate a set of front pads in about a day of track time. Mainly because of the torquing issue. If you want to actually stop, switch up to some multi piston deals.


You put an R front end on an MK IV? I disconnected my front stock bar and have nothing in the font. It works well with the Shine SRS rear bar and springs setup. The MK IVs are heavy understeer cars in my opinion. By putting in a monster rear bar, and loosening up the front end, the car is much better over/under steer balanced in my opinion (and many others). I like being able to get the rear end to slide out a little on the track when I want to. I also like less understeer.

Regarding multi piston setups, what are you suggesting specifically? Ant suggestions?


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

Only one's I'm aware of off the top of my head are stoptech and the R brakes.

Yeah, I swapped in R spindles, control arms, sway, steering rack, etc.


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## AEGTI3913 (May 13, 2010)

KG18t said:


> Only one's I'm aware of off the top of my head are stoptech and the R brakes.
> 
> Yeah, I swapped in R spindles, control arms, sway, steering rack, etc.


Interesting. What year R car? 2003 R32? What was the specific intention/reason/goals? Did it work?


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

There's a suspension geometry thread in here on MK4s somewhere that can get very VERY in depth if you want to learn about the stuff... but in short:

Any mk4 based TT or R will work for the swap. The spindles are the main reason - they drop the ball joints about 1.25 inches or so (ballpark out of my memory). This raises the roll center of the car so it doesn't lean quite as much, and keeps camber in better ranges under load/turn. Other benefits - cast control arms with adjustable camber, beefier ball joints and tie rod ends. Other little bits that you could do without any of the rest - steering rack (quicker ratio), subframe bushings (less rubber, much stiffer). I started using R front struts so I could use the different sway bar mount points, and swapped my regular 5spd hubs into the spindles so I didn't have to cluster**** my axles.



also, thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...dle-install-on-MK4-GTI-pics-and-small-writeup


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## AEGTI3913 (May 13, 2010)

KG18t said:


> There's a suspension geometry thread in here on MK4s somewhere that can get very VERY in depth if you want to learn about the stuff... but in short:
> 
> Any mk4 based TT or R will work for the swap. The spindles are the main reason - they drop the ball joints about 1.25 inches or so (ballpark out of my memory). This raises the roll center of the car so it doesn't lean quite as much, and keeps camber in better ranges under load/turn. Other benefits - cast control arms with adjustable camber, beefier ball joints and tie rod ends. Other little bits that you could do without any of the rest - steering rack (quicker ratio), subframe bushings (less rubber, much stiffer). I started using R front struts so I could use the different sway bar mount points, and swapped my regular 5spd hubs into the spindles so I didn't have to cluster**** my axles.
> 
> ...


Got it. Thanks for the details. I'll read the thread for sure.

I actually went through a similar exercise about 2 or 3 years ago when I had Shine refresh the stock (original!) suspension parts. I read for at least a month on forums and talked to a bunch of people before making the changes. I heard about TT spindles and other associated parts, but ended up not putting them in because essentially it sounded very expensive. IE: custom parts had to be made in addition to the spindles in order to finish the setup. 

I ended up getting the Shine springs, rear shine bar, Bilstein HDs, replaced rear axle bushings and subframe bushings (with OEM) because they were toast. When I drove out of there, it was a new car (I'm sure in part to the demolished shocks and bushings - not just the stiffer slings and bar).

So I love the Shine setup, but I still hate the ride height. Performance on street and track is great. Looks like crap. Especially since it was a AEdition car, and was an inch or so lower than normal GTI when it was new. I'm a performance over looks guy, so it is what it is.

Does the front end R parts swap you did lower the car at all? If so, what about the rear? Just a lowering plate/bracket? I'd love to hear/see what you've done.

Thanks again. eace:


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

All the spring perch locations are identical. No lowering inherent to the different parts, just changes the geometry. I did end up lowering the car some - using koni yellows with a ground control coil kit - 400lbs x7" up front, 350 x8" in back. Car is about stock R height. Looking back, and if I ever decide to change springs, I'd go an inch longer on both, as I'm at the top of the adjustment range. Using GC camber plates as well. H2Sport needle/spherical bearing control arm bushings. Car's stiff, and is very predictable.


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## AEGTI3913 (May 13, 2010)

KG18t said:


> All the spring perch locations are identical. No lowering inherent to the different parts, just changes the geometry. I did end up lowering the car some - using koni yellows with a ground control coil kit - 400lbs x7" up front, 350 x8" in back. Car is about stock R height. Looking back, and if I ever decide to change springs, I'd go an inch longer on both, as I'm at the top of the adjustment range. Using GC camber plates as well. H2Sport needle/spherical bearing control arm bushings. Car's stiff, and is very predictable.


What's the setup for? Track? DD? Sounds kinda harsh for DD, no?


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

Yeah, it's dedicated track/autoX, every time I take it out on the street and have a passenger who's not a track junkie... "OMFG this thing is uncomfortable." It hasn't moved much in the last year. It gets fired up and run on a few mile loop once a month or so. Just too busy and too many other places to direct monies.


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