# Ms1 tuning



## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

So I recently got my car on the road. It idles and cruises well but has no pull what so ever. 
I'm wondering if maybe my ignition table needs some adjusting? I gathered as much info as I could off of here as to what would work well but I feel like its off a bit. 

I'm running the ms1 v3 for spark only 
The motor is: 
1.8 16v 
82mm je 11:5:1 pistons 
Freshly rebuilt head, decked and 
Mildly ported 
Autotech cams 
R1 bike carbs 
Header w/ no cat 
TT 2.25 exhaust 

Heres my table


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

I think your timing is TOO advanced. I dont have personal experience (until this weekend anyway) for 16vs, but The highest timing advance I have seen on them is 26. Try pulling your timing way back and see if it adds more fuel is VE analyze. Keep on pulling back until it takes it away in both directions. 

EDIT: Just saw you are on carbs. Watch your wide band then and see if it leans or riches. If it leans out then you are doing good.


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

It is running a tad rich under load. At idle it's perfect, should I pull timing from the entire table or just the upper end? 

Thanks


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Is the other axis kPa or TPS?


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

ps2375 said:


> Is the other axis kPa or TPS?


 kPa


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Do you really have that much of a kPa range? Maybe rescale that part of the graph some. 

And I second the thoughts about how much advance you have.


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

I copied a table I found on here a while back hoping it would get me started. 
I will rescale it and go from there 
Thanks


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

So I cut the advance back , still behaving the same. 
Should I take more out?


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## sdezego (Apr 23, 2004)

Make sure you timing is actually changing and not Fixed (via IGn settings which is used to verify Trigger angle, etc). 

Check it with a light. 
- Set it to fixed and verify what is on your light matches what TunerStudio Reads. Adj Trigger angle to match. 
- Re-enable to use IGN table and verify at a few RPMs (lower and higher) and make sure what you are reading on your adjustable timing light matches your map 

Then start tweaking map.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Agreed, sync timing and try again. For WOT timing on a 16v I have found 30-32deg to be optimal for mild cams, and sometimes more for bigger cams but depends on compression, fuel, etc. The low MAP areas can probably use some more timing, that high spot in the lower right corner can most likely slide to the left a bit. I also agree that unless you can pull that much vacuum, to move the lower bins up a bit and adjust the range to fit the range of the motor a little better. Seldom do I see less then a 20kpa bin unless I'm not using decel fuel cut.


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

sdezego said:


> Make sure you timing is actually changing and not Fixed (via IGn settings which is used to verify Trigger angle, etc).
> 
> Check it with a light.
> - Set it to fixed and verify what is on your light matches what TunerStudio Reads. Adj Trigger angle to match.
> ...


 I made sure to put the "-10" back in but I didn't check to make sure it's working properly. 
So at idle with the table on the timing light should show what I have as a value set in the table or what I have the distributor set at? Because they are not the same. Distributor is timed at 6 dbtc


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

oldschool eighty8 said:


> So at idle with the table on the timing light should show what I have as a value set in the table


 This if you are running off the table.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Yes, but I would sync it with a fixed angle set in software, you can get some drift due to interpolation if you don't.


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

Ok so I re-read the manual I didnt sync it right the first time. I want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly before I attempt to sync it again. I need to adjust the trigger angle to get the gauge in tunerstudio to match what I have the distributor set at, correct?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

No, set the MS to a fixed angle, set the motor to that angle. So, if you have a FW with a mark at 6*BTDC, set the fixed angle to 6*, then set the motor to 6* BTDC. Then go back to the spark table, the motor timing should match the table.


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

Ok that's the way I did it the first time.


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

Sync'd the distro and ecu again. I don't have an extra set of hands tonight to check the timing at different rpm's but I already think its not following the map. Monitoring the gauges my kpa stays at 97 weather it's idling or revving. That should be following the rpms as they go up and down shouldn't it? 

I did check the timing at idle with the table on and it the idle timing is what I have the 800 rpm column set at now


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Sounds like the map is not connected to the motor. Check your vacuum line(s).


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

ps2375 said:


> Sounds like the map is not connected to the motor. Check your vacuum line(s).


 I only have one vac line. For the break booster and it is secure.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Well, 97 would be pretty close to atmosphere near sea level. Have you checked to see if the MAP sensor will respond to a vacuum? I use a syringe or a vacuum pump or by mouth.


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

I honistly don't think there is one in it, this ecu is really bare bones it's set up for single spark only. I know it works because I got it and the carbs from a friend of mine who ran it for a summer with no issues. Only difference between our setups is the motor itself.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

It has a barb for the vacuum line? That is the MAP sensor, if you don't have a MAP sensor, the only other way is with a TPS input and that would be on the alpha-n option.


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

No barb on it.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Can you post a pic of the board? Did this have an external MAP?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

A v3 will just have a hole with the barb just inside the case.


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

I can take it back out and get some pictures of it, I don't remember seeing a map inside it when I opened it up, or a hole on the outside where it should be but I will look again 

Thanks


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)




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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

MAP sensor should be mounted on the bottom of board, if you look in the hole on the end plate, do you see it? It looks like it is mounted as the holes for U2 look be have something soldered in them.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Should be there, I see pins and solder.


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

Yup, I feel like an idiot. It's in there :facepalm: thanks guys. 

Is it sensitive to line size like a digi1 ecu? I have some leftover boost line that should reach.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

any line should work.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

ps2375 said:


> any line should work.


 Any line, any length, assuming it doesn't collapse under vacuum. Ask me how I know :facepalm: Boost line will be fine. :thumbup:


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

Vac line hooked up it's now using the table, I adjusted the kpa range a tad and pulled 5* from the whole table, adding alittle bit in the lower areas. It idles in the 1000 rpm column at 40-53 kpa. 
Deffinatly feels better driving but still off. 

I'm slowly trying to work my way up from idle, not really concerned about the upper end yet as the motor only has about 20 miles on it.


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

Still runs like crap 

It's a little better in the low end but as soon as it gets to 3k it falls right on its face. 

I'm thinking about grabbing the spark map off spitfireefi for the 1.8 16v but I'm not sure if it's going to be any better. I'm close to 12:1 compression with the block and head re-decked, and that's for stock compression. 

Any thoughts?


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Grab a log w afr, it could just need fuel tuning.


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Grab a log w afr, it could just need fuel tuning.


 I'll try to get one tomorrow afternoon. 
My wide band is showing 15-17:1 when cruising and high 14's low 15's at WOT. I have a small exhaust leak so I don't know how accurate that is. 
Possibly the carbs need to be Sync'd again but I still feel like my ignition table is holding it back.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Carbs, there's your problem  Your WOT afr is leaner then I'd like to see, but I agree that an exhaust leak could be causing issues. 

One quick test is run the timing locked at 20-25 and see how it behaves, if it's the same, it's likely a fueling issue. 

Also, another quick check is set locked timing and rev the motor and make sure it doesn't drift off of the locked value when checked with a timing light.


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

Yea yea lol:laugh: Carbs suck but they look good! 










I'll give that a try, thanks :beer::thumbup:


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

Got it under control now, thanks for the help everyone. :beer: 
I ended up adding another 1/2 turn on the mixture screws and backing the advance off a bunch in the upper kpa, might end up taking more above 4000 rpm's. Afr is hanging around 15 at idle an low rpm's. WOT is low 14's feels MUCH happier. 

Getting somewhere :thumbup:


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

Bringing this back, sorted out a few mechanical issues so I can really take the car out and mess with it. I'm still having issues with my tune. I've noticed while driving and watching the gauges. As soon as I open the throttle it's going right to the top of the map range. Which making it really hard to tune it for cruising and wot. If I get it so it's not too lean at wot, I'm getting lots of bucking and seeing really lean numbers on the afr gauge when cruising. Any ideas how to cure this?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

What is your plug gap?


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

ps2375 said:


> What is your plug gap?


.038


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Have you tried a smaller gap? That isn't a huge gap, but it seems wider than stock.


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

I haven't, I think stock for a 16v is .032? Worth a shot, I bought two sets of plugs for it. I'm also considering putting the standard knock box ignition in to see if maybe there is an issue with the carbs.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Well, going lean is def the carbs, but whether that is a very short term transitional lean or the spark blowing out due to being very lean.

Are accel pumps working correctly?


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

R1 carbs dont have accel pumps, I believe the fuel is controlled by the vac ports on top of the carbs. The lean spot is right around 1/2 throttle when cruising. It's also present sitting in neutral reving. What bugs me is how it jumps right to 100 kpa as soon as I open the throttle.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

oldschool eighty8 said:


> R What bugs me is how it jumps right to 100 kpa as soon as I open the throttle.


That would not be unusual for injected ITB's, as there is not much volume there and the butterfly will have a huge effect at the slightest change in opening.


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

ps2375 said:


> That would not be unusual for injected ITB's, as there is not much volume there and the butterfly will have a huge effect at the slightest change in opening.


So would I be better off going a different route with the ignition?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Other than installing a TPS and switching the table from Kpa to TPS, there's not much you can do about the change in vacuum when the throttles are moved. Other than a smaller choke size on the carbs.

And your cams aren't huge, but since they are on an individual runner, extra lift and duration don't help you with vacuum either.


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

I made a quick log but I cant figure out how to post it :facepalm:

also can someone tell me what pin on the ecu plug is input for the wideband?


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Looks like pin 23. Paul is correct, and I can't count. CORRECTED


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

O2 is always pin23 unless someone has done a lot of work to make it not!


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

thanks guys :thumbup:
I regapped the plugs , no deal. 
I ordered a few different larger main jets today, to help out in the upper throttle area. 

Here is my current map. The area I'm getting the miss fire and bucking is in the 2100-3000 area between 100 kpa and 75. Its always run leaner in that spot but started acting up just recently. No matter what I put in there for values it acts the same. I had a similar issue a long time ago with a digi1 car when the grounds on the back of the head for the ecu came loose, doesnt seem to be the case this time. 
I'm going to take the carbs apart and inspect the floats next.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

If wildly changing ignition doesn't help, it's likely fuel. I would say add some with the + arrow, but for you it's more work.

Tuning carbs with access to a WB02 is frustrating as you have all the information you need to make changes but they are absurdly hard to implement in comparison to programmable EFI.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

^^^Gotta agree with that. And having never owned a car w/ a carb, I can't imagine converting to them. They do have a place, but currently not in my life or garage. I hope you can make this work out for you and your build. GL:beer:


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

Thanks, an I'm not one to give up  both the carbs and stand alone are new territory for me, and I've learned a lot about both.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

need_a_VR6 said:


> Tuning carbs with access to a WB02 is frustrating as you have all the information you need to make changes but they are absurdly hard to implement in comparison to programmable EFI.


I would definitely agree there. :beer: Bike carbs in particular can be annoying. Weber DCOEs aren't too horrible though.


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## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

So I picked up a few larger jets to try out, deffinatly made a big difference. I haven't really driven the car a long distance since i got it running till today. It was great for about 10-15 min. Then it started acting up again. So the conclusion I've come to is I think the fuel pump is getting too hot on the firewall and vapor locking. After a few runs the pressure gauge on the regulator is almost at 0 pressure.


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