# MkIV 12v VR6 Kinetic Turbo Stage 2



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

Its done. The front-mount intercooler is on as well as a 3" Kinetic catback exhaust.
Stock dyno run with GIAC ECU+DIY intake and 91 octane
# [email protected] RPM [email protected] (a very strong OEM motor!)
Stage 1 dyno run with OEM exhaust and 91 octane
# @4.5PSI [email protected] & 234 ft-lb @3550RPM
Stage 2 intercooled dyno runs with 3" catback exhaust and 92 octane
# @4.5PSI [email protected] & 257 [email protected]
# @6PSI [email protected] & 272 [email protected]
# @8PSI 280whp/300 ft-lbs (estimated because we ran out of time)
# @10.5PSI [email protected] & 320 [email protected] (Shawn said not to run such high boost without race fuel because it may result in severe engine knock.)

General info about the kit:
# This is a FMIC upgrade for the Stage 1 kit. No headgasket spacer yet.
# Price point will be ~$1000 according to Shawn.
# You need either a boost controller or a new wastegate spring to set the boost level appropriate for this upgrade kit.
# The C2 ECU software does not need updating to run Stage-2, although paying for updates/reflashes from C2 is always recommend as Mr. Atwood is always making improvements to the chips.
# 2" charge pipes - one pipe runs right along the passenger fender-liner for a stealth look. The other runs up next to the drivers-side headlight
# intercooler endtank connectors are 2.5"
# bumper rebar needs trimming just like 1.8T FMIC kit.
# inner bumper section needs quite a bit of trimming. I suspect the R32 bumper would accommodate the intercooler much better
# bumper grille inserts need severe trimming - I'm probably gonna make some honeycomb mesh material to put in there instead cause they look kinda ghetto

Kinetic exhaust
# OEM cat modified to have a 3" outlet
# 3" stainless steel welded pipes
# Vibrant 4x10" resonator
# Vibrant 6x14" muffler
# downturn 3" tip
# Kinetic exhausts are custom made to your specifications and welded to fit on your car. Price varies per application.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV 12v VR6 Kinetic Turbo Stage 2 (phatvw)*

Pics as promised:
edit:
Here is an updated dyno plot comparing 4.5, 6, and 10.5PSI. I have corrected the hiccups the dyno was making by smoothing out the spurious peak torque numbers. Again, I stress that the 10 PSI run was experimental and Kinetic will likely not advertise these numbers. This is just what my car ran
http://www.parts4vws.com/image...2.jpg
http://www.parts4vws.com/image...2.jpg
http://www.parts4vws.com/image...t.jpg
http://www.parts4vws.com/image...s.jpg
http://www.parts4vws.com/image...e.jpg
http://www.parts4vws.com/image...e.jpg


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV 12v VR6 Kinetic Turbo Stage 2 (phatvw)*

Driving impressions
The exhaust sounds sweet. It makes a mean grumble at idle and a roar at WOT. There is a bit of drone around 2500RPM on the highway. Gonna try putting some dynamat and see how far that gets me.
The extra power is great. I can really notice it between 4-6K RPM. The thrust increases gradually and doesn't feel peaky at all and it keeps going all the way to the 7000RPM redline.
The torque is epic. I'm getting wheelspin in turns that I was able to take at WOT before and I have the Peloquin differential and Michelin Pilot sports! Just crazy.
The best part about the FMIC, is that its totally repeatable. No heat soak issues at all. I can top out 3rd gear, then come down to 10MPH stuck in a traffic jam for 30 minutes, then get right back up to to speed no sweat. Lovely.
Oil temps were running 190-200°F consistently on the highway and 220°F when stuck in traffic. Still haven't gotten my R32 oil cooler or a water temp sender hooked up yet. Thats the next project.


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## 2k1 vr6 (Dec 22, 2001)

*Re: MkIV 12v VR6 Kinetic Turbo Stage 2 (phatvw)*

very nice numbers http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif what octane did you use to get those numbers? so stage 2 kit is only a FMIC?


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## Soupuh (Apr 29, 2005)

good job.


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## Soupuh (Apr 29, 2005)

edit: answered up top


_Modified by Soupuh at 5:08 PM 10-22-2006_


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## [email protected] (Mar 16, 2004)

*Re: MkIV 12v VR6 Kinetic Turbo Stage 2 (2k1 vr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2k1 vr6* »_so stage 2 kit is only a FMIC?

I think the mk4 needs a short runner intake manifold to fit bigger injectors. And I wouldn't trust that plastic manifold with much more boost.


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: MkIV 12v VR6 Kinetic Turbo Stage 2 ([email protected])*

No need for a short runner .
we have used bolt on [email protected] injectors on the Mk4 since 1999 here in europe.
Ran high 12s on em with 4 bar FPR


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## Soupuh (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: MkIV 12v VR6 Kinetic Turbo Stage 2 ([email protected])*

phatvw and I have 36# injectors right now... jeffrey Atwood says above 14-15 psi, the plastic manifold will break, and at that point we'll need bigger injectors anyway...


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: MkIV 12v VR6 Kinetic Turbo Stage 2 (Soupuh)*

we ran ~1.2 bar with the OEM manifold .


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV 12v VR6 Kinetic Turbo Stage 2 ([email protected])*

Updated with pics


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## Soupuh (Apr 29, 2005)

going to go back to the track before winter? I'm gonna try and get another trip in after i get my fmic installed, and the cat taken out.



_Modified by Soupuh at 8:58 PM 10-22-2006_


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Soupuh)*

Track day next week - Last of the season. I'm gonna keep it at 6PSI until I've had time to run vag-com timings and stuff.


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## 2k1 vr6 (Dec 22, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw)*

so are you running a MBC? if not, did you have to change any of your springs in your WG or DV?


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (2k1 vr6)*

I've got Kinetic's MBC installed right here. The special K is upside down








http://www.parts4vws.com/image...C.jpg
I plan to hook up one of these next, and use my headlight switch:
http://www.3barracing.com/product_2.htm



_Modified by phatvw at 9:47 PM 10-22-2006_


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## vdubspeed88 (Oct 5, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

so what was the reliability issue at 10psi?


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (vdubspeed88)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdubspeed88* »_so what was the reliability issue at 10psi?

With the stock compression of ~10.5:1, there is a high probability of excessive engine knock and the ECU retarding the ignition timing. I think with 94+ octane, 9PSI would probably be ok for daily driving. For 91 octane I think Shawn will recommend 6-8PSI to be on the safe side.
The MkIII kits could handle more boost because they had ~10.1:1 compression. Just wait till Shawn releases the stage 3 kit with the headgasket spacer and re-tuned fueling. With a short-runner intake manifold, we'll be able to push 15PSI+ without breaking a sweat











_Modified by phatvw at 12:12 AM 10-23-2006_


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## traffic (Sep 23, 2003)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Dibs on rides!!! Hey you gotta pick me up for lunch anyway this week.
Holy stealth, Phatman, that's insane!!
Well, looks like you'll be out of my league next year's track season. But at least I won't have to have my own tire wholesaler.
Nice job!! Can't wait to hear the exhaust.


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## Lew_Dog (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: MkIV 12v VR6 Kinetic Turbo Stage 2 (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
inside of bumper needs trimming. I suspect the R32 bumper would accommodate the intercooler much better
bumper grille inserts need severe trimming - I'm probably gonna make some honeycomb mesh material to put in there instead cause they look kinda ghetto


I just had a VFE Stage 2 installed with a FMIC. I used a 20th AE front Valence, trimmed it a little, and that worked great! The bumper grill inserts needed a lot of trimming too... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## CBHVR6 (Jul 3, 2006)

*Re: (phatvw)*

So add a headgasket and push 10-12psi reliably?


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## eggroller (May 25, 2000)

*Re: (phatvw)*

nuts.... now lets see you track (Roadrace) that beast this weekend.


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## Soupuh (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: (CBHVR6)*

with a fuel pump


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## Rippinralf (Jun 21, 2002)

*Re: MkIV 12v VR6 Kinetic Turbo Stage 2 ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_No need for a short runner .
we have used bolt on [email protected] injectors on the Mk4 since 1999 here in europe.
Ran high 12s on em with 4 bar FPR

Really? We use 380cc injectors in this kit, and they fit right in there, "easy as 1 - 2 - 3"


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## 2k1 vr6 (Dec 22, 2001)

*Re: MkIV 12v VR6 Kinetic Turbo Stage 2 (Rippinralf)*

it would be ok to run 10 psi daily without high octane due to the pressure drop in the FMIC right







so in actuality, your not really boosting 10psi


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## Soupuh (Apr 29, 2005)

with that mbc and higher than 6 psi, how does it hold boost to redline?


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (Soupuh)*

This same turbo is making 380-400whp on some Mk3 cars.
~10-12psi is 'cake'.
-Jeff


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## Soupuh (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*

i like cake


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: MkIV 12v VR6 Kinetic Turbo Stage 2 (2k1 vr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2k1 vr6* »_it would be ok to run 10 psi daily without high octane due to the pressure drop in the FMIC right







so in actuality, your not really boosting 10psi









The 6PSI I'm quoting is measured at the intake manifold. The turbo outlet is maybe making 7-7.5PSI.


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## 2k1 vr6 (Dec 22, 2001)

*Re: (Soupuh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Soupuh* »_with that mbc and higher than 6 psi, how does it hold boost to redline?

i'm not sure if i'm answering your question correctly but, from what i was told, with a MBC you can make your WG see double the amount. so with a 6psi spring you would be able to up to 12psi with a MBC. with a 8 psi spring you can go up to 16psi with a MBC.


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## Rippinralf (Jun 21, 2002)

*Re: (2k1 vr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2k1 vr6* »_
i'm not sure if i'm answering your question correctly but, from what i was told, with a MBC you can make your WG see double the amount. so with a 6psi spring you would be able to up to 12psi with a MBC. with a 8 psi spring you can go up to 16psi with a MBC.

thats the general rule


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## Soupuh (Apr 29, 2005)

i mean that with my 5# spring in the WG, at 8 psi on the mbc it tapers to closers to 6.5 at redline


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Soupuh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Soupuh* »_i mean that with my 5# spring in the WG, at 8 psi on the mbc it tapers to closers to 6.5 at redline

I have the printout of the raw data at home... IIRC, the boost did flutuate and actually peaked at around 6.5PSI, and then came back down to 6PSI. I think thats expected with a MBC and wastegate - there will be some overshoot since the control-system is not critically damped.
I think that the P-I-D controllers do a much better job of maintaining a strict boost level, but them they cost $250...


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## 2k1 vr6 (Dec 22, 2001)

*Re: (Soupuh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Soupuh* »_i mean that with my 5# spring in the WG, at 8 psi on the mbc it tapers to closers to 6.5 at redline

where are you tapping to get your boost read out. from the turbo or intake? that might give you different read outs on your gauge. i was told that you can get a more accurate number if it's on the turbo. also if your using silicone tubing instead of nylon tubing to your boost gauge, that might throw off the numbers a little because silicone tubing expands more than nylon. (that's what i was told







)


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## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: (2k1 vr6)*

I really shouldnt be reading all this.... I need to get my Dif first.....if i only had more money


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## VRptstyly (May 18, 2006)

*Re: (nubVR)*

any updates??? How Much? release date?


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## 01VRSIXER (Mar 31, 2004)

*Re: (VRptstyly)*

If I did a headgasket and stage 2 what would the limits in terms of PSI?


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## VR6OOM (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: (01VRSIXER)*


_Quote, originally posted by *01VRSIXER* »_If I did a headgasket and stage 2 what would the limits in terms of PSI?

24psi I would imagine. You would then probably need in inline fuel pump.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (VR6OOM)*

I think Jeffnes3 said ~12PSI is about the limit of the 36# injectors and the OEM fuel pump. ~16PSI is the limit for the OEM intake manifold. Upgrade all those and you're good to go as far as you like


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## VRptstyly (May 18, 2006)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Internals?


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## VR6OOM (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_I think Jeffnes3 said ~12PSI is about the limit of the 36# injectors and the OEM fuel pump. ~16PSI is the limit for the OEM intake manifold. Upgrade all those and you're good to go as far as you like










Mk4 stage 2 doesn't get 42# injectors? And I've also heard the mk4 intake manifold isn't _that _crappy.


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (VR6OOM)*

36# inj. limit is 'boost', but rather net power. figure ~350whp.
Its not a matter of ~opinion that the mk4 manifold WILL
break under too much boost. It wasn't designed to support
use in this manner, some may stay together running ~20psi 
while others break at ~14psi. The difference being manufacturing tolerances.
Shawn did a good job putting together a matched set of parts for this kit. Turbo choice, inj. choice, vs power, vs stock manifold pressure limit vs ~upgrade ability.
Theoretically we can put a 4bar fpr on and reach for ~400whp.
Parts needed: bigger turbine housing, 3" exhaust, HG spacer, in-line pump. You ~could call this stage 4.
-Jeff


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## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: (VR6OOM)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6OOM* »_
Mk4 stage 2 doesn't get 42# injectors? And I've also heard the mk4 intake manifold isn't _that _crappy. 

It isnt "crappy" its just made of plastic, which is why it wont hold up to 14+ psi...


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (nubVR)*

So guys, I had this beast on the track this weekend for two events.
The first was a 1.5 mile road course on an old airstrip with cones setup for kinks. The power on this thing is insane! I was passing tons of cars in the straights and everyone was asking what I had under the hood! My corners needed a little work - there is so much torque that its hard to get used to using the throttle so lightly during cornering. I only went off-roading once though








The next day was auto-x training exercises. The skidpad and slalom helped a lot and I really got the chance to re-learn how to be steady with the throttle and steer the car without using the steering wheel. The day ended with a long auto-x course with lots of switchbacks. With this setup, big brakes and an oil cooler are essential! After a 2 minute auto-x run my oil temps crept from 200 -> 240!!!
BTW I drove eggroller's car GTI (1.8T + chip + H2sport + PSS9, etc) back to back with my car on the track. The H2sport spindles are amazing. Turn-in is so much sharper with far less mid-corner understeer. My limited-slip Peloquin allows for earlier transition to full throttle, but the H2sports allow a higher average speed through the corner.
My prediction: VR6T + H2Sport + Peloquin = Porsche Carrera killer



_Modified by phatvw at 9:13 PM 10-29-2006_


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## eggroller (May 25, 2000)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Good to see you tearing it up on the track this weekend (What a great weekend!! 2 days of corner carving!)
SMooooooooooth power....that is the name of this turbo setup. It doesn't hit like a chipped 1.8T (mine) but the mountain of torque/power never seems to have a peak...It keeps going into the clouds! I found it was easier to modulate the power with this setup. (if I went big turbo on my car I am sure that it would behave in a similar way). 
With the new IC, the above seems as it is repeatable time after time. 
Boy do I need to install that Peloquin I have sitting in the garage!


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (eggroller)*

Here is an updated dyno plot comparing 4.5, 6, and 10PSI. I have corrected the hiccups the dyno was making by smoothing out the spurious peak torque numbers. Again, I stress that the 10 PSI run was experimental and Kinetic will likely not advertise these numbers. This is just what my car ran


















_Modified by phatvw at 10:04 AM 10-30-2006_


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## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

Phat, hows the quality of the exhaust? Just like the Piping of the kit? Could i bug ya for some pics?? Still in debate what route im gonna go...if it is the same quality as the kit, it wont be much of a choice... thanks


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (nubVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nubVR* »_Phat, hows the quality of the exhaust? Just like the Piping of the kit? Could i bug ya for some pics?? Still in debate what route im gonna go...if it is the same quality as the kit, it wont be much of a choice... thanks

I took some pics while the car was on the lift using Shawn's camera. He's supposed to forward me the pics soon. The quality is top notch! Fabrication, welding, and fitment is excellent. The sound is good. Loud but good. There is still some droning going on at 2500RPM even though this is resonated system. Kinetic doesn't keep exhausts in stock, they build them to your specs for your car and pricing depends on application. You should drop by Kinetic one day and speak with Shawn.


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## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

hmmm ok, so the 3" exhaust, wont be part of there "stage 2 kit"? Just the intercooler? I think im gonna do my own...probably be a few months before im ready too though!


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (nubVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nubVR* »_hmmm ok, so the 3" exhaust, wont be part of there "stage 2 kit"? Just the intercooler? I think im gonna do my own...probably be a few months before im ready too though!

The exhaust was separate. The kit just comes with the intercooler and new piping.


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## 2k1 vr6 (Dec 22, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw)*

so the different dyno runs you did, was that the psi reading you saw on your gauge?


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (2k1 vr6)*

A vacuum line from the intake manifold was tapped (near brake booster) and the boost was read by the dyno rig itself. The boost fluctuated up to 0.5PSI around the stated value.


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## stuntman213 (Sep 28, 2004)

would it be possible to see a few more pics of the pass. side intercooler routing?


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (stuntman213)*


_Quote, originally posted by *stuntman213* »_would it be possible to see a few more pics of the pass. side intercooler routing?

I took a few on Shawn's camera at the shop while the bumper was off... he's supposed to email them to me...


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## stuntman213 (Sep 28, 2004)

Nice Im quite excitied about this kit. I have a fully built 3.0L for my MK4 GTI (9:1 Compression) so Im looking to push the limits of this kit I want around 350whp but also want to keep my A/C and from the looks of it with this kit you can.


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## vr6954 (Sep 13, 2006)

where did you buy the kit?


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## tekstepvr6 (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: (VR6OOM)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VR6OOM* »_I've also heard the mk4 intake manifold isn't _that _crappy. 

This happened to a friend of mine running 18 psi on a custom turbo setup running an EIP stage 2 chip. I don't think I would push the stock plastic manifold this far.










_Modified by tekstepvr6 at 3:08 PM 11-6-2006_


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## procket2_8 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (tekstepvr6)*

Yup that was mt manifold on the way to show n go. Correction: EIP stage 2 chip, kit was built by me and lets just say after that this is what i built:








Thanks for the pic Brian!


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## tekstepvr6 (Aug 15, 2001)

*Re: (procket2_8)*

Sorry about that Kenny. Post edited above.


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## procket2_8 (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: (tekstepvr6)*

Thanks Brian, i just didnt want to give credit where it wasnt due haha. But thank you for posting that picture, you read my mind.


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## VRptstyly (May 18, 2006)

*Re: (procket2_8)*

so whats the word on this stageII kit?


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## Soupuh (Apr 29, 2005)

well, it comes after 1, but BEFORE 3


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (VRptstyly)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VRptstyly* »_so whats the word on this stageII kit?

Here is the word:
- estimated sale price: ~$1000 like 1.8T kit (perhaps less if bought in conjunction with stage-1)
- ETA: soon
- power, etc.: see above
- anything else: call Kinetic toll-free


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## vr6954 (Sep 13, 2006)

ever take it down the quarter mile?


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (vr6954)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6954* »_ever take it down the quarter mile?

I did with stage 1, but I suck: 14.8
Soupah took his stage 1 on race fuel and got 13.9! Should be possible to do the same with pump fuel on stage 2. With race fuel on stage 2, who knows...



_Modified by phatvw at 5:32 PM 11-9-2006_


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## vr6954 (Sep 13, 2006)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
I did with stage 1, but I suck: 14.8
Soupah took his stage 1 on race fuel and got 13.9! Should be possible to do the same with pump fuel on stage 2. With race fuel on stage 2, who knows...

_Modified by phatvw at 5:32 PM 11-9-2006_

what do u think? like low 13's on pump gas?


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## Soupuh (Apr 29, 2005)

in all fairness, i ran 9 psi at the track and you ran, what, 6?
i'd say if i had a 2 stage boost controller and was running less boost in first gear (spun hard after the launch) i could run a 13.8 on pupm gas, all else being the same. It was a very cool night though, and the track was very sticky.


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## Rippinralf (Jun 21, 2002)

*Re: (Soupuh)*


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Rippinralf)*

Hey I forgot to post a pic of the whole front-end before:








What do you guys think? Ghetto-looking?
I'm thinking of painting the hose clamps black...


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## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Hey I forgot to post a pic of the whole front-end before:








What do you guys think? Ghetto-looking?
I'm thinking of painting the hose clamps black...


Somewhat ghetto...but thats why we are constantly changing our cars right? Maybe just some regular mesh instead of the OEM pieces that are real thick..then you wont have them cut out..cause the mesh will be in fron of the hose... possibly double layer it for more of a stealth look... just my 2cents though... Im workin on my R bumper right now...for maybe a better fitment...


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (nubVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nubVR* »_
Somewhat ghetto...but thats why we are constantly changing our cars right? Maybe just some regular mesh instead of the OEM pieces that are real thick..then you wont have them cut out..cause the mesh will be in fron of the hose... possibly double layer it for more of a stealth look... just my 2cents though... Im workin on my R bumper right now...for maybe a better fitment...

I was also considering the mesh idea. The problem is figuring out how to attach it to the bumper. The end-tank hoses come right up to the front edge of the bumper which might make mounting mesh a little difficult. Perhaps hot melt glue or something like that might work. I'm just afraid of "modifying" this bumper too much. 
At some point I think I'll get a cheap Eurogear R32 bumper which ought to have more space for the FMIC and get the whole car re-painted. Its got dings and a huge key scratch down the side along with a big dent in the hood. I guess thats the true definition of sleeper though - a car that looks like crap but hauls ass!



_Modified by phatvw at 4:46 PM 11-15-2006_


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## VR6_00Jetta (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_What do you guys think? Ghetto-looking?
I'm thinking of painting the hose clamps black...


I vote with you and Mick Jager: "Paint it black!"


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## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

Verytrue man....stay tuned on the Eurogear bumper...ive heard many horror stories...but im being patient with mine, i had to go with it, OEM was a bit much right now when i still have to do my Diff ...ill let you know if its worth it or not...


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: (Rippinralf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rippinralf* »_









What is the verdict on Stage 2 for the 12 Valve Vr6 for the Mk4? Are you guys still waiting to officially release it? And what is the estimated price, HP, torque etc?
Thnx


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## Rippinralf (Jun 21, 2002)

*Re: (V-dubbulyuh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *V-dubbulyuh* »_
What is the verdict on Stage 2 for the 12 Valve Vr6 for the Mk4? Are you guys still waiting to officially release it? And what is the estimated price, HP, torque etc?
Thnx


Verdict is not in yet, Correct.
Top secret still


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## zvrkan5 (Jul 11, 2006)

very nice phatvw
i spoke to shawn today and he told me about ur car...
i was supposed to be the guinea pig but i was low on money at the time...
all in all ...its sounds crazy....however im getting those head spacers at the same time...i want at least 12psi daily...
however something has to be done about that front bumper now...it looks wierd....kinda ugly ...i have a black vr too..so looking at urs i'm thinking of ways to make it look nice as well...
but otherwise...congrats man...now all we need is tires


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## Rippinralf (Jun 21, 2002)

*Re: (zvrkan5)*


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (zvrkan5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zvrkan5* »_very nice phatvw
i spoke to shawn today and he told me about ur car...
i was supposed to be the guinea pig but i was low on money at the time...
all in all ...its sounds crazy....however im getting those head spacers at the same time...i want at least 12psi daily...
however something has to be done about that front bumper now...it looks wierd....kinda ugly ...i have a black vr too..so looking at urs i'm thinking of ways to make it look nice as well...
but otherwise...congrats man...now all we need is tires









Ask Shawn if he'll powdercoat the intercooler and hose clamps before installation. Also mesh grilles ought to make it look a little nicer. Might reduce the effciencey of the intercoler a little bit though...


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw)*

do not powdercoat the IC. Anodize it.

-Jeff


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_do not powdercoat the IC. Anodize it.

-Jeff

What about just spray-painting the end-tanks?


----------



## bryan burnick (Sep 16, 2005)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Ok, im looking to piece together my kit, and this is what I have so far. 
Kinetic stg I
3" cat-back
mbc
8/5:1 head gasket spacer
lsd
new clutch(I was looking at a spec stg II with lightened flywheel, should i just go with the powerclutch and lightened flywheel instad?)
FMIC
Dieselgeek oil cooler
Is there anything I am missing?
Should i get bigger injectors or new fuel pump?
What kind of numbers should i expect with this kit?
TIA
Bryan


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (bryan burnick)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bryan burnick* »_Ok, im looking to piece together my kit, and this is what I have so far. 
Kinetic stg I
3" cat-back
mbc
8/5:1 head gasket spacer
lsd
new clutch(I was looking at a spec stg II with lightened flywheel, should i just go with the powerclutch and lightened flywheel instad?)
FMIC
Dieselgeek oil cooler
Is there anything I am missing?
Should i get bigger injectors or new fuel pump?
What kind of numbers should i expect with this kit?
TIA
Bryan

Add ARP head studs and an inline fuel pump like the popular walbro units and you'll be all set for 300-350HP! To push any further you're going to need a new intake manifold. Depending on age and heat cycle history, the plastic manifold could crack when you go beyond 12-15PSI.


----------



## bryan burnick (Sep 16, 2005)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Thanks for the info phatvw http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
but as far as the clutch goes, what would you guys recommend?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (bryan burnick)*

If you are drag racing, get a very beefy clutch. One of the "stage 3/stage 4" varieties. If you aren't doing much drag racing, I would opt for something like the Sachs power clutch for smooth engagement. I've got a "stage 4" clutch and its very annoying to drive in the city. Also, don't bother with a lightweight flywheel. It reduces the luxury feel of the car quite a bit, especially when combined with stiffer motor mounts.


----------



## bryan burnick (Sep 16, 2005)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_If you are drag racing, get a very beefy clutch. One of the "stage 3/stage 4" varieties. If you aren't doing much drag racing, I would opt for something like the Sachs power clutch for smooth engagement. I've got a "stage 4" clutch and its very annoying to drive in the city. Also, don't bother with a lightweight flywheel. It reduces the luxury feel of the car quite a bit, especially when combined with stiffer motor mounts.

So the powerclutch will be fine even though it is only rated at up to 300 tq(doubtfull ill get there anyways)? and what do you mean by the luxury feel of the car?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (bryan burnick)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bryan burnick* »_
So the powerclutch will be fine even though it is only rated at up to 300 tq(doubtfull ill get there anyways)? and what do you mean by the luxury feel of the car?

luxury feel = least noise/vibration/harshness
A stage X clutch with lightweight flywheel and stiff motor mounts increases all three for almost ALL driving situations. Choose your modifications wisely. Do you want a race car or a street car?


----------



## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
luxury feel = least noise/vibration/harshness
A stage X clutch with lightweight flywheel and stiff motor mounts increases all three for almost ALL driving situations. Choose your modifications wisely. Do you want a race car or a street car?

You had also mentioned about those stage X clutches being pretty stiff, but is the engagement any different? I am curious as to what your "pain" is with such a clutch. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (V-dubbulyuh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *V-dubbulyuh* »_
You had also mentioned about those stage X clutches being pretty stiff, but is the engagement any different? I am curious as to what your "pain" is with such a clutch. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

In stop and go traffic my ankle gets sore from the extra pressure and after a while its very difficulty to smoothly engage 1st gear. The car shakes like its gonna stall...
Some folks have better luck - depends on how picky you are about this stuff.


----------



## IIVR6II (Feb 2, 2005)

hey....where is everyone ....and how about some videos???????


----------



## 02MkivVr6 (Nov 13, 2006)

im planning on ordering this kit but im guessing for shure a stage 2 clutch/ lightweight flywheel and what els?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (02MkivVr6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *02MkivVr6* »_im planning on ordering this kit but im guessing for shure a stage 2 clutch/ lightweight flywheel and what els?

If you're doing clutch/flywheel, you may as well get a Peloquin differential too. Unfortunately Kinetic doesn't have the best deal on those compared to some of the USA vendors, but if you buy everything together they might make you a good deal.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_do not powdercoat the IC. Anodize it.

-Jeff

I priced out anodizing locally: $100-$150
Doesn't seem worth it. The price gets a LOT cheaper if you do many units at once.
Kinetic should offer a black intercooler as an option!


----------



## VR6_00Jetta (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
Kinetic should offer a black intercooler as an option!

x2, x3, x4, etc !!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Rippinralf (Jun 21, 2002)

*Re: (VR6_00Jetta)*

IMs replied


----------



## NoHrt (Nov 9, 2005)

*Re: (Rippinralf)*

Well looky looky the kit is somewhat released..... Wasnt really the HP#'s i was hoping for but hopefully with a headspacer that will help.
I was hoping for 300hp.
I was also hoping to be the prototype car. But i guess they wanted more of a stock car to show more OEM numbers.
I blew all my money away, now i have to start saving again


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (NoHrt)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NoHrt* »_Well looky looky the kit is somewhat released..... Wasnt really the HP#'s i was hoping for but hopefully with a headspacer that will help.
I was hoping for 300hp.
I was also hoping to be the prototype car. But i guess they wanted more of a stock car to show more OEM numbers.
I blew all my money away, now i have to start saving again










Yep a headspacer will definitely help. Shawn said he'll ship me a complementary one when I'm ready to upgrade again









I think a nice Stage 2.5 upgrade to max out the capability of the OEM intake manifold and 36# injectors would be:
9:0 headspacer
ARP head studs
Walbro inline fuel pump
4bar or adjustable fuel pressure regulator
updated software from C2

Then add the following for Stage 3:
bigger injectors
C2 short-runner intake manifold


----------



## 01VRSIXER (Mar 31, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Any news on the release of stage 2?


----------



## Rippinralf (Jun 21, 2002)

*Re: (01VRSIXER)*


_Quote, originally posted by *01VRSIXER* »_Any news on the release of stage 2?

very soon, the pipes are nearing completion


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Rippinralf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rippinralf* »_
very soon, the pipes are nearing completion









You guys just building inventory? I know you had the jigs done a while ago







Are the pipes gonna be mandrel single piece or welded pieces like my prototype?
And what about stage3? You gotta start selling a short-runner intake for folks that want to boost past 12PSI daily - either re-sell C2's design or have a Kinetic-design. You know I'll drive up for the beta-testing - Shawn already said he'd do the headgasket spacer for free









Anyway, you folks with Stage1 are gonna love Stage2. It puts our cars in the league of Boxster-S, STI, 350Z, 1.8T-stage3, etc. for a lot less money.



_Modified by phatvw at 5:08 PM 1-26-2007_


----------



## Rippinralf (Jun 21, 2002)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Ready to ship in about 2 weeks ( 14 days ) http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Rippinralf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Rippinralf* »_Ready to ship in about 2 weeks ( 14 days ) http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Took you guys long enough


----------



## turbohead (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: (phatvw)*

ouch







ill keep your car longer next time Dan


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (turbohead)*


_Quote, originally posted by *turbohead* »_ouch







ill keep your car longer next time Dan









Hehe. As long as you show me the power I don't mind! When is stage 3 happening????
Can't wait till there is dry weather around here so I can get some TRACTION.


----------



## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw)*

here's the potential of the turbo kit.
354 whp
422 wftlb (boost spike)
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4580118
car owned by: Soupuh

-Jeff


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Jefnes3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jefnes3* »_here's the potential of the turbo kit.
354 whp
422 wftlb (boost spike)
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4580118
car owned by: Soupuh

-Jeff


----------



## Soupuh (Apr 29, 2005)

dan i called you tonight, but your wife said you werent around. where the heck were you?


----------



## IBD12NV (Nov 24, 2000)

*Re: (Soupuh)*

what's the finall on the cost? Any pics? Been waiting for this before starting my build. PhatVW, how's it running?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (IBD12NV)*


_Quote, originally posted by *IBD12NV* »_what's the finall on the cost? Any pics? Been waiting for this before starting my build. PhatVW, how's it running?

Its running great! Just installed a 2-stage boost controller from http://www.3barracing.com. I hooked it up to the headlight switch so that when fogs are off, I have wastegate 5PSI, and when fogs are on, I have 8PSI. (I don't actually have fog lights because I have OEM HID's
















I added 2 check valves to the recommended install at the T-junction.

Final cost for a complete stage-2 kit minus boost controller should run just under $4000. Not bad for a 100HP bump in power on pump fuel and 125HP+ bump on race fuel










_Modified by phatvw at 7:55 AM 2-12-2007_


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Side mount?
Seriously, how hard would it be put in one of those universal SMIC setups and hook it up to this kit? My front bumper has huge side openings that i'd love to capitalize on.


----------



## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: (vr6pilot)*

General question about attaching the vacum hose for the variable intake when installing Kinetic's Stg1 on a Mk4 Vr6.
In the pics on Kinetic's website, I notice that some people have the actual intake pipe (U-shaped deal from compressor to throttle body) running to the throttle body tapped and the vacuum connected there. Then within that same PDF of pics on their site a little further down (pg 24) it appears that the vacuum line is run from the air intake just after the MAF.
What is the correct location for this vacuum to be run and how critical is its placement?
Thanks


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

*Re: (V-dubbulyuh)*

I've read over 140 pages of thread







and can't find the answer to.....
is this a floating bearing type or ball bearing type turbo??


----------



## vdubspeed88 (Oct 5, 2004)

*Re: (vr6pilot)*

ball bearing turbos are extra.


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

*Re: (vdubspeed88)*

and this info is where?


----------



## 01VRSIXER (Mar 31, 2004)

*Re: (V-dubbulyuh)*

I have the kinetics kit also. I used a T and tapped into the line to the DV. Im pretty sure the shifter rod still works.


----------



## vdubspeed88 (Oct 5, 2004)

*Re: (vr6pilot)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6pilot* »_and this info is where?
 its called a phone, you pick it up and call them. they have a 1800 number and will answer any questions.


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

*Re: (vdubspeed88)*

okay, so its not something I missed on the website. Just trying to collect all i can from the 'tex before I bug the people shipping the product. thanks, tho.










_Modified by vr6pilot at 5:09 PM 3-21-2007_


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (VRptstyly)*

Took my Stage-2 on the road course and upped the boost to ~10psi. Man this thing is FAST! I dropped the 3bar-racing two-stage boost controller because I could never get it working right, so I'm just keeping it simple with just a Kinetic MBC.
But after running hard and parking the car, I noticed that the exhaust had gotten significantly louder and raspier. Seems that using a TURBO BLANKET was a bad idea. The turbo got so hot that it cooked the blanket into a brittle/crumbly mess.
Also with all the heat, one of the studs holding the downpipe to the turbo came loose. I tried to remove it but it sheared off. Had to take the whole downpipe out to get the remainder of the stud out of the turbo.
Now I need to order new studs and gaskets from Kinetic
Word to the wise: DO NOT USE A TURBO BLANKET. Get ceramic coating or just leave it.


_Modified by phatvw at 7:14 PM 4-1-2007_


----------



## Soupuh (Apr 29, 2005)

gosh whoever sold you that blanket must have been a tool
(sorry)


----------



## FNVR6T aka 2k1 vr6 (Nov 16, 2006)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_Took my Stage-2 on the road course and upped the boost to ~10psi. Man this thing is FAST! I dropped the 3bar-racing two-stage boost controller because I could never get it working right, so I'm just keeping it simple with just a Kinetic MBC.
But after running hard and parking the car, I noticed that the exhaust had gotten significantly louder and raspier. Seems that using a TURBO BLANKET was a bad idea. The turbo got so hot that it cooked the blanket into a brittle/crumbly mess.
Also with all the heat, one of the studs holding the downpipe to the turbo came loose. I tried to remove it but it sheared off. Had to take the whole downpipe out to get the remainder of the stud out of the turbo.
Now I need to order new studs and gaskets from Kinetic
Word to the wise: DO NOT USE A TURBO BLANKET. Get ceramic coating or just leave it.

_Modified by phatvw at 7:14 PM 4-1-2007_

you got stage 2 kit and only boosting 10psi. turn it up more, i only got the stage 1 still and boosting 12psi


----------



## 01VRSIXER (Mar 31, 2004)

*Re: (FNVR6T aka 2k1 vr6)*

I have the stage 1 also running 7.5PSI right now. Im going to be doing meth injection really soon, any ideas what kinda boost I'd be safe with on the stock headgasket and intake manifold? I wasn't planning on going much past 10-11 PSI. How does the car feel at 12 PSI?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (01VRSIXER)*


_Quote, originally posted by *01VRSIXER* »_I have the stage 1 also running 7.5PSI right now. Im going to be doing meth injection really soon, any ideas what kinda boost I'd be safe with on the stock headgasket and intake manifold? I wasn't planning on going much past 10-11 PSI. How does the car feel at 12 PSI?

I think 12psi is the safe limit for the OEM manifold. Its plastic and with many heat cycles can get brittle and crack under boost. Some folks boost 20PSI with no problems for a couple years, then blammo...
Past 10PSI on 10.5:1 compression with 92 octane fuel is not such a great idea. With 100 octane race fuel no problem pushing 12psi and beyond


----------



## FNVR6T aka 2k1 vr6 (Nov 16, 2006)

*Re: (01VRSIXER)*


_Quote, originally posted by *01VRSIXER* »_I have the stage 1 also running 7.5PSI right now. Im going to be doing meth injection really soon, any ideas what kinda boost I'd be safe with on the stock headgasket and intake manifold? I wasn't planning on going much past 10-11 PSI. How does the car feel at 12 PSI?

it feels good i guess. this is the first car i ever *drove* that had turbo so i'm not sure how it suppoae to feel. it feels alot more fun to drive than stock i can tell you that. the most i would boost on stock compression is 12psi too, just until i change the intake manifold







and stage 2 software http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## LaTEnTConcepT (Jun 9, 2005)

so whens stage 2 and 3 coming out ??


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (LaTEnTConcepT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LaTEnTConcepT* »_so whens stage 2 and 3 coming out ??

Just spoke with [email protected] today. Some of the plans have been put on hold because Kinetic moved into a bigger building and the interior is being re-done right now. So I don't think they are working at 100% capacity on building inventory for the newer kits. Rest assured that all the kits have been designed and tested and WILL be released. Its just a matter of getting the production up to speed.


----------



## GTI Lurk (Jun 8, 2006)

I just ordered my Stage 2 today! Cant wait


----------



## CBHVR6 (Jul 3, 2006)

*Re: (GTI Lurk)*

Got my stuff about a week ago, just trying to get on the dyno before i install it.
















I decided to color match my pipes atlantic blue


----------



## FNVR6T aka 2k1 vr6 (Nov 16, 2006)

*Re: (CBHVR6)*

hey *phatvw*,you have more pics of how the passengers side piping runs along the inside of the engine for your fmic?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (FNVR6T aka 2k1 vr6)*

Try this: http://www.kineticmotorsport.c...s.pdf
Its very similar to the 1.8T FMIC install.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (CBHVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *CBHVR6* »_Got my stuff about a week ago, just trying to get on the dyno before i install it.
















I decided to color match my pipes atlantic blue


Nice pipes!. They look nicer than my black welded prototypes. I suggest putting 3 coats of paint and a protective clear coat on the long pipe going to the throttle body. When you work on the car it *will* get dinged up.
Say Clay, when am I getting my mandrel bent pipes and the HG spacer?


----------



## 01VRSIXER (Mar 31, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

So stage 2 has been released?


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

*Re: (01VRSIXER)*

oh, the pain....do I turbo the 12V or swap in a 24V because, ultimately, the 24V will deliver more powah, yes?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (vr6pilot)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6pilot* »_oh, the pain....do I turbo the 12V or swap in a 24V because, ultimately, the 24V will deliver more powah, yes?

Do both!


----------



## Soupuh (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: (phatvw)*

twice!


----------



## vdubspeed88 (Oct 5, 2004)

*Re: (vr6pilot)*

F 24valve,i haven't seen too many making over 700 yet. 12v is just fine. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

*Re: (vdubspeed88)*

well, first off..."yet" is the key word, here. Secondly, I gives a rat's poo shoot about 700hp. Just seems like a better engine design in terms of flow. getting "more" out of the same displacement.


----------



## Soupuh (Apr 29, 2005)

I worry about cost, not efficiency. I can make more power than my transmission can handle (therefor, needing $ for a better tranny) at the same cost on my 12valve as a 24v.


----------



## FNVR6T aka 2k1 vr6 (Nov 16, 2006)

*Re: (01VRSIXER)*


_Quote, originally posted by *01VRSIXER* »_So stage 2 has been released?

give kinetic a call, when i talked to them last month, they had about 50 in stock ready to ship http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif remind you, stage 2 is only a FMIC kit.


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

*Re: (Soupuh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Soupuh* »_I worry about cost, not efficiency. I can make more power than my transmission can handle (therefor, needing $ for a better tranny) at the same cost on my 12valve as a 24v. 

Probably the best advice I've heard on this topic. Essentially, I can hit my HP goal either way...so why not put the money into the trans rather than starting over with a new engine. 
Thanks, man. This really puts things in perspective. Even with the 24V, I'd need some beefing up in the drivetrain so I guess I'd be just setting myself back the cost of the new motor.
And I have been talking to Kinetic. Clay has been fantastic in entertaining my questions. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

*Re: (vr6pilot)*

This one needs a bump for one thing.
For another...is there adjustability in how the FMIC is mounted? Can I move it lower to get it placed for best airflow since I have an aftermarket front end?


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

*Re: (vr6pilot)*

Um, yeah, nevermind....I can just flip the cooler itself upside down.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (vr6pilot)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6pilot* »_Um, yeah, nevermind....I can just flip the cooler itself upside down.









Yes you can mount it any way you wish. The piping kit has several silicone flex joints which should allow about an inch re-positioning up or down.


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw)*

*Long term update:*
So I got the Stage 1 kit 14 months ago, and have had the Stage 2 kit for the last 7 months. Up until recently everything was solid.
At my last track event, I turned up the boost to 10PSI and ran very hard for a solid 20 minutes. This puts so much more stress on the car than any drag racing or hard driving on country back roads. You really are working the car to its mechanical limits.
My buddy, traffic on vortex, had an oil line burst on his MR2 towards the end of session, and his car erupted into flames. (He was ok, car needs a little work.) The track session ended abruptly with everybody being flagged back to the paddock.
*No cool down lap.*
I parked my car and let it idle as I checked out traffic's burnt car. Bad idea. My engine cooked and when I started it up 20 minutes later, I was not making boost and it sounded like I had a 300° cam with open headers - *aka an exhaust leak.*
*Car was drivable.*
Drove home and the first thing I did was pull of the turbo "blanket" I had installed. What a piece of crap. On removal, it literally turned into dust. Never again will I install a turbo blanket. This was the generic kind thats made from the same material as exhaust wrap. Other materials might work better. But I fear the turbo and gaskets just got too dang hot under that blanket.
Called up Kinetic - they sold me a new turbo->DP gasket (I have an older down-pipe that uses a gasket) and new wastegate gaskets. One of the WG gaskets was totally blown - the fire ring was gone and the remaining metal was white and flaky. THat was my second WG gasket to blow out. Those things need a serious re-design. Replaced all that along with a the turbo->dp studs and got my boost back, but still had an exhaust leak.
Called up Kinetic again and they sold me new head->manifold and manifold->turbo gaskets. Pulled manifold->turbo gasket and there was a huge chunk of metal missing and the remainder was charred black. One stud was loose and I marred it up pretty bad trying to remove it.
New studs and new gasket solved everything though. I'm *making boost* again and my car doesn't sound like some busted Mustang any more.
*In summary:*
Do a proper cool down lap at the track
Do not use a turbo blanket



_Modified by phatvw at 12:10 AM 5-5-2007_


----------



## zvrkan5 (Jul 11, 2006)

when do you get full boost now?
is there more turbo lag now then before?


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (zvrkan5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zvrkan5* »_when do you get full boost now?
is there more turbo lag now then before? 

6PSI still comes on at the same RPM as before, with 9PSI hitting 100-200RPM later depending on engine load. If going uphill with full engine load, it spools a lot faster.
For example I can hit full boost at 2500RPM in 4th gear going uphill.
Or 4500RPM in 2nd gear going downhill.
Or 3300RPM in 3rd gear on a flat road.
It all depends on conditions.


----------



## zvrkan5 (Jul 11, 2006)

Hmm..ok i just might do this then...
I am thinking of getting aluminum pipes though...i think they cool down faster...


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (zvrkan5)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zvrkan5* »_Hmm..ok i just might do this then...
I am thinking of getting aluminum pipes though...i think they cool down faster...

The pipes are all cold to the touch! Well except for the one sitting right above the turbo - that one gets pretty hot. Roll on over to Kinetic and get that Intercooler hooked up! And bug Shawn & CLay to send me production pipes - I'm still using the prototype pipes over here


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Hey guys, in case you weren't paying attenion, Kinetic has posted Stage2 and Stage 3 kits on their website:
http://www.kineticmotorsport.c....html
Stage 1 full kit = $3150
Stage 2 full kit = $3950
Stage 3 full kit = $4250
Stage 3 comes with headgasket spacer and modified 42# injectors. It does NOT come with ARP head studs which are highly recommended when you replace the headgasket, so add another $200 to the price for those.
No word on intake manifold offerings. Here's hoping Kinetic offers a stage3+ with a well-tuned intake manifold and MkIV mirror-image cams


----------



## flieger (Jun 28, 2000)

Question....are the injectors in this kit a straight hook into the OEM harness? I know there are other kits in production(more so for the 24v) that require you to "cut" the factory harness and wire them in.
Thanks for the input....


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (flieger)*

I don't think the wiring harness is modified, just the injector body itself.


----------



## flieger (Jun 28, 2000)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_I don't think the wiring harness is modified, just the injector body itself.


So basically just a new set of 6 injectors then....plug-n-play...


----------



## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (flieger)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flieger* »_
So basically just a new set of 6 injectors then....plug-n-play...

I believe that's how it works, yeah.


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Hey Phat,
I'll be on board soon. I'm doing some car prep: Sachs Power Clutch, turned flywheel, water pump, crack pipe, thermostat and housing and all related o-rings, new tensioner pulley, magnetic drain plugs for the tranny and motor, and urethane bushings for the pendulum mount. 
I had changed the trans juice and drove the car for about a month and then dumped it out to give the tranny innards a good cleansing.
I'm in the process of all the cooling system work. Once done, I'll reinstall the transmission and order the kit. Looking at going straight to stage 2.

Debating dropping the coin for a Peloquin's diff. Tough call: its big money but the tranny is sitting on the floor.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (vr6pilot)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6pilot* »_Hey Phat,
I'll be on board soon. I'm doing some car prep: Sachs Power Clutch, turned flywheel, water pump, crack pipe, thermostat and housing and all related o-rings, new tensioner pulley, magnetic drain plugs for the tranny and motor, and urethane bushings for the pendulum mount. 
I had changed the trans juice and drove the car for about a month and then dumped it out to give the tranny innards a good cleansing.
I'm in the process of all the cooling system work. Once done, I'll reinstall the transmission and order the kit. Looking at going straight to stage 2.

Debating dropping the coin for a Peloquin's diff. Tough call: its big money but the tranny is sitting on the floor.










If the tranny is out, now's the time to invest in the peloquin... I think my buddy has one for sale brand new in the box. Car was totaled before it could be installed. Just IM me if you're interested








BTW if you're doing coolant system stuff, you might want to add an auxiliary water temp sensor while you're at it. The OEM sensor and gauge is not accurate at all. When you add a turbo you'll want oil temp and/or coolant temp. I have both:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2911403


_Modified by phatvw at 1:52 AM 5-31-2007_


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Looking at the layout of the system, I'm not so sure the factory water temp is all that inaccurate. It monitors right there at the thermostat so, if that's working, the temp shouldn't fluctuate any.
Further, if the temp does go high, then one of two things have occured: either the thermostat has failed or the overall system is incapable of cooling enough for present conditions (i.e. thermostat is wide open but the coolant is searing hot anyway)
Since my temp reads bottomed out at startup and gradually climbs to operating temp, I believe the guage is working fine. That is not to say that there may be areas within the system where a localized increase in temp may occur but it will eventually be sensed at the thermostat and corrected there. Anyone's thoughts?


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (vr6pilot)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vr6pilot* »_Looking at the layout of the system, I'm not so sure the factory water temp is all that inaccurate. It monitors right there at the thermostat so, if that's working, the temp shouldn't fluctuate any.
Further, if the temp does go high, then one of two things have occured: either the thermostat has failed or the overall system is incapable of cooling enough for present conditions (i.e. thermostat is wide open but the coolant is searing hot anyway)
Since my temp reads bottomed out at startup and gradually climbs to operating temp, I believe the guage is working fine. That is not to say that there may be areas within the system where a localized increase in temp may occur but it will eventually be sensed at the thermostat and corrected there. Anyone's thoughts?

I found that the aftermarket VDO semp sender/gauge was much more sensitive to changes than the OEM gauge. The OEM gauge either reads low, 190° or overheat, while my VDO gauge fluctuates depending on conditions. If I'm in traffic idling, the temp creeps to 220° - as soon as I'm running at speed again, it drops down to 190°. The OEM gauge reads 190 all the time. In one instance, the VDO gauge gave me a 5 minutes heads up that I was going to overheat (had an air-bubble in the coolant system) luckily, I noticed and ran the heater on full blast and everything was OK. Had I just been paying attention to the OEM gauge, I think the car would have overheated for sure.


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## fastslc (Sep 14, 1999)

*Re: (phatvw)*

^^ That's why real time temp guages are awesome .. Like in my Corrado http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
and as an added plus.. there is the oil temp too. I hit 240F in a recent 98F ambient weather lately.. cruising off boost at 70 mph



_Modified by fastslc at 7:12 AM 6-3-2007_


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## jhayesvw (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: (fastslc)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fastslc* »_^^ That's why real time temp guages are awesome .. Like in my Corrado http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
and as an added plus.. there is the oil temp too. I hit 240F in a recent 98F ambient weather lately.. cruising off boost at 70 mph
_Modified by fastslc at 7:12 AM 6-3-2007_

yup A3 vr6s have oil temp in the MFA too. its great. digital readout. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vdubspeed88 (Oct 5, 2004)

*Re: (jhayesvw)*

I can read all mine from my laptop. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

*Re: (vdubspeed88)*

def down for oil temp


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## Hard-Turtle (Jan 2, 2003)

*Re: (phatvw)*

That's it. I want one. Good kit, good software, good power, good drivability...I want one.
After having installed a VF Stage II on a MkIII VR for a friend







, I could use a less stressful, less finicky install.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for Jeff @ C2, Kinetic, and everyone here and in the Stage 1 thread for all the good info.
BTW, Jeff, do you write NA software for MkIV VR as well?


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (Hard-Turtle)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Hard-Turtle* »_That's it. I want one. Good kit, good software, good power, good drivability...I want one.
After having installed a VF Stage II on a MkIII VR for a friend







, I could use a less stressful, less finicky install.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for Jeff @ C2, Kinetic, and everyone here and in the Stage 1 thread for all the good info.
BTW, Jeff, do you write NA software for MkIV VR as well?









When I spoke to Jeff, he said he could write custom N/A chips for VR with cams etc. I think the price point would be around $200 or so? Competitive with GIAC and whatnot in any case.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_*Long term update:*

One of the WG gaskets was totally blown - the fire ring was gone and the remaining metal was white and flaky. THat was my second WG gasket to blow out. Those things need a serious re-design. Replaced all that along with a the turbo->dp studs and got my boost back, but still had an exhaust leak.

_Modified by phatvw at 12:10 AM 5-5-2007_

Having the same rotten luck with those WG gaskets...


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (V-dubbulyuh)*

ya those wg gaskets suck.......what are people doing for a larger turbo on our kits.....with out major mods??


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: (dtm337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dtm337* »_ya those wg gaskets suck

What are you doing? Just replacing them as necessary? Especially as behind there on my car is so cramped it is not easily accessible. There must be some better alternative, I've just been lazy but I am thinking of fabbing something out of copper or something similar.








And as for bigger turbos, what do you mean, Fueling etc? Head gasket, SRI, better intercooler ...


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (V-dubbulyuh)*

i just made my own copper wg gasket from 1/4 copper has worked for 1 year with no issues ,,,no i meant turbo size ...like t3t4 60-1 or something,.... im running 1 of the og garret units from the first kits..now


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: (dtm337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dtm337* »_i just made my own copper wg gasket from 1/4 copper has worked for 1 year with no issues

About to do likewise http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif x2

_Quote, originally posted by *dtm337* »_ ,,,no i meant turbo size ...like t3t4 60-1 or something,.... im running 1 of the og garret units from the first kits..now

I am still running their stock T3-T4 stuff. But you have a "big" turbo for sale don't you? 
Unrelated question but are ALL of the injectors that Kinetic is doing for the Mk4 modified? I did not realize that the 42lb were machined also. And is anyone having fitment issues with any of the machined injectors?


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (V-dubbulyuh)*

yep i do ....too big! for me


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## DMehalko(DM) (Nov 1, 2004)

*Re: (dtm337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dtm337* »_ya those wg gaskets suck.......what are people doing for a larger turbo on our kits.....with out major mods??

I've been using the same gaskets that came with my tial for months now (non fire gate) and not any problems, i think you guys arent getting the WG bolts tight enough


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (DMehalko(DM))*


_Quote, originally posted by *DMehalko(DM)* »_
I've been using the same gaskets that came with my tial for months now (non fire gate) and not any problems, i think you guys arent getting the WG bolts tight enough

i think you should check your gaskets...


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (dtm337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dtm337* »_
i think you should check your gaskets...









If you're not going to the race track, you probably won't blow-out the gaskets.
Getting the WG bolts tight is very important.
Because of the space limitations with the TIAL unit, I found it a LOT easier to torque hex-head bolts rather than nuts+studs as provided by Kinetic. I just picked up two standard 8.8 rated M8x35 bolts hex-head bolts (Not 100% sure of the size, but they are the same bolts that are used to hold the plastic intake manifold together)


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_
If you're not going to the race track, you probably won't blow-out the gaskets.



I guess "I am going to the race track" everyday on the way to work then.








Just gonna fab something up and hopefully I can be done with messing with that substandard gasket that they supply.


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## DMehalko(DM) (Nov 1, 2004)

*Re: (dtm337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dtm337* »_
i think you should check your gaskets...









Ther fine!! And i also used stainless hex head bolts


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: (DMehalko(DM))*


_Quote, originally posted by *DMehalko(DM)* »_
And i also used stainless hex head bolts

Do you remember the size of those bolts off hand? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## DMehalko(DM) (Nov 1, 2004)

*Re: (V-dubbulyuh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *V-dubbulyuh* »_
Do you remember the size of those bolts off hand? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

8x1.25mm im pretty sure http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: (DMehalko(DM))*


_Quote, originally posted by *DMehalko(DM)* »_
8x1.25mm im pretty sure http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Schweete.


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (V-dubbulyuh)*

any body running the kinetic 3 inch mk4 dp ,,,if so hows the fitment ..


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## 01VRSIXER (Mar 31, 2004)

*Re: (dtm337)*

Didn't even know they had one yet, that will have to be my next upgrade. At 11 psi I can feel the 2.5" restricting flow.


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (01VRSIXER)*


_Quote, originally posted by *01VRSIXER* »_Didn't even know they had one yet, that will have to be my next upgrade. At 11 psi I can feel the 2.5" restricting flow. 


im not shure if they do for the mk4 kits ,,,i know they have them for he mk3 .s,,,,,,i think ill call and ask .


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Spark plugs?*

Hey guys I think its probably getting time to change my spark plugs. I've had about 16,000 miles on the plugs Kinetic threw in there and I haven't even checked them!
So which plugs should I use?
What gap?
And how many miles should I go before checking em next time?


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## Soupuh (Apr 29, 2005)

i use ngk bkr7e's... gapped to .022, but i run 20-21 psi. they are less than 2 dollars a piece, so i change them when i change the oil or when i am under the hood.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: (Soupuh)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Soupuh* »_i use ngk bkr7e's... they are less than 2 dollars a piece, so i change them when i change the oil or when i am under the hood. 

x2.
Some people with our setup are also using bkr6e's but I have been having luck with the 7's.


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (V-dubbulyuh)*

ngk 7's ftw.....gapped at .24.................change em like every 2 oil changes


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (VRptstyly)*

Napa has the NGK bkr7e plugs for $1.99:
http://napaonline.com/MasterPa...bkr7e


_Modified by phatvw at 10:28 AM 10-23-2007_


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## IwannaGTI (Jul 12, 2001)

*Re: (phatvw)*

anyone run 8's? know where to get them??


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (IwannaGTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *IwannaGTI* »_anyone run 8's? know where to get them??

sparkplugs.com


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## IwannaGTI (Jul 12, 2001)

*Re: (dtm337)*

not listed


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (IwannaGTI)*

hmm i always use those guys ...for 7's


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (dtm337)*

The OEM gap is 0.028":








How is this for a rule of thumb: For every 4PSI of boost, reduce the gap by 0.001"?



_Modified by phatvw at 1:25 AM 11-2-2007_


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

so im almost done with the i guess you would say stage 4-5 ,,set up?
its the stage 3 kit ,,,with a t61/gt40 ....on the 42# program ..im just waiting for the sri to be built....


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: (dtm337)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dtm337* »_..im just waiting for the sri to be built....

What are you doing for SRI? Custom? Any pics? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## dtm337 (Jun 11, 2004)

*Re: (V-dubbulyuh)*

sleepers in ct is doing some handy work for me ,,,and i went with the kinetic ic.....


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (dtm337)*

Finally changed the spark plugs. Old copper plugs were in there for over ~17,000 miles! Yeah I'm a major dumbass. But it shows you how robust this Kinetic kit is!
Popped a new set of NGK BKR7E in and gapped em @0.024" I think idle and power delivery is a little smoother. Could be placebo effect though.
Still got a CEL to figure out - some intermittent Oxygen sensor and knock sensor shenanigans...
How often are you guys doing oil+filter changes on these kits? I'm doing every 5000 miles with OEM filter and Mobil 0W-40 Euro-formula oil.



_Modified by phatvw at 3:08 PM 11-20-2007_


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## Soupuh (Apr 29, 2005)

i run 20w50
i usualyl have a few codes like that, but i dont get a cel all the time. maybe once every 1200-1500 miles the cell comes back on, always an 02 sensor or maf related. runs fine.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

*Re: (Soupuh)*

Dyamn thing got archived and fell outta my watched topics.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (V-dubbulyuh)*

I blew through another TIAL wastegate gasket. Man these things are horrible. This is the one major weakness of the Kinetic kit! I'm gonna call up Shawn and see if there is anything we can do. Dunno if there are any better gates that will fit on the cast iron manifold... but perhaps a differently shaped gate would allow a better fastener with a shouldered nut. Right now the best you can do is either:
1) stud plus un-shouldered nut
2) metric hex cap bolt
Neither lets you get a ton of torque on there with the way the gate is setup.
3 days before a trackday too. Luckily I have a spare gasket from the last time this happened, but it looks like one of the fasteners backed out - hopefully the threads on the gate are intact.
Teardown begins in 5...4...3...2...1....






















edit:

Got it back together. Looks like one of the cap bolts backed out and disappeared on the road somewhere. The fire-ring gasket was actually OK, so I re-used it as an experiment. Found an extra bolt+washer and tightened the heck out of it. When I was done, I realized I didn't put any loc-tite. Oops.
Went for a test drive and its all good at 9-10PSI. We'll see how long it lasts on the racetrack...



_Modified by phatvw at 9:50 PM 3-4-2008_


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## radoman57 (Jan 16, 2007)

*Re: (phatvw)*

loc tite only works in a non heat application, anything over 300 degrees or so it becomes liquid and burns off. just use never seize so it comes off easier the next time


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## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Glad im not the only one with the same issue...had to redo mine again.... pain in the ass to get that all the way tight... atleast my stud didnt back out! Glad your up and running good!


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (nubVR)*

It survived the track day! But I only ran 5PSI. Its just too damn fast at 10PSI. I'm already hitting 130MPH in the straights at 5PSI. I don't even want to know how fast I'd be going with 10PSI.
Gasket held up OK. Thought I saw a wisp of smoke coming from it after a session, but was probably just crud burning off since it didn't happen again.
Check engine light came on during the first session:
O2 sensor and Knock sensor again. I think I gotta replace the knock sensor. I JUST did the O2 sensor so if the knock sensor doesn't get rid of ALL my codes, I think my CAT is toasted.

BTW no more upgrades on this car cause I think I have found a new track toy. I might convert the GTI back to a daily driver... I'll keep the turbo though


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## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_BTW no more upgrades on this car cause I think I have found a new track toy. I might convert the GTI back to a daily driver... I'll keep the turbo though










Well please share... must be a pretty impresive toy to top what you have goin!


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (nubVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nubVR* »_
Well please share... must be a pretty impresive toy to top what you have goin!

Thinking of mid-engine, RWD, under 2500pounds, under 150HP with great handling for less than $5000. A real drivers car


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## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

1st gen mr2?


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (nubVR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nubVR* »_1st gen mr2?

yep - maybe a stripped 2nd gen. Haven't decided...


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## nubVR (Apr 25, 2004)

*Re: (phatvw)*

damn im good







Well let me know what you do!


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