# 2007 Beetle convertible - cloud of white smoke on starting, now engine ticks



## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

Have a 2007 VW Beetle convertible that did "something" a few days ago. My daughter started it, and it apparently it gave off a LARGE cloud of white smoke, and the check engine light came on. She shut it down immediately. When I got home to check, on startup there was a small puff of white smoke, but it stopped. The CEL code was a P2097 - trouble with the downstream O2 sensor or bad fuel.

Now, I HAD put Seafoam in both tank and crankcase about 2 weeks earlier. Was getting ready to change oil, wanted to clean things out somewhat. It had been through that tank of gas with the Seafoam and was now on regular 87.

Oil was a little low - topped it off, cleared the code, and went for a test drive. Oil warning light would pop on for a few secs, then go off. Then a few minutes later on, then off again. Then it threw a P0011 code - Camshaft Position 'A' Timing Over-Advanced.

Digging around it seems like that can be caused by a poor oil condition etc. So, changed the oil today, and it was BLACK. The filter housing had sludge in it ! That oil was only about 4 months old, maybe 3000 miles. Now, new oil is in, new filter etc ...

Go for a test drive, no smoke on startup or at all. But every time I accelerate it throws the oil light. No CEL yet, but I went straight home after only a few minutes.

And now I notice a definite TICK sound that wasn't there before. Or perhaps just not as loud, or paranoia is making me hear it louder. Oil level is good. Coolant level is good. Except for the ticking, it sounds normal, normal temp, driving feels normal.

So, what would have caused that large cloud of white smoke ? Local VW dealer is about 15 miles away, but I'm leery of driving it that far. I can do most of whatever work is needed, but I don't know where to look yet. Also, out of warranty, so anything will be out of pocket ...

If the timing IS over-advanced, how can one reset it - like resetting the Supra ECU.

Any ideas ?


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

read this thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7017696-MKV-gas-rough-and-low-idle-clicking-and-white-smoke

see if any of the other symptoms match yours.


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

le0n said:


> read this thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7017696-MKV-gas-rough-and-low-idle-clicking-and-white-smoke
> 
> see if any of the other symptoms match yours.


Yeah, I saw that thread (among others) while searching this out. It's close-ish, but not the same. There was only the white cloud once, when my daughter started it. When I started it that evening, there was a smaller puff of white that stopped within a couple of minutes.

Current symptoms are the clicking of the engine, and that the oil light comes on under acceleration. I don't know if it would come on while just coasting, I wasn't out long enough to test that. I think I'll start it up today and just let it idle and warm up, see what it does.

I worry about the black oil and the sludge in the oil filter housing ... I'm thinking maybe the oil pickup in the pan is clogged with sludge ? How tough is it to drop the pan ? I also worry about oil passages being blocked with sludge - no idea what to do about that if it's the case.

Thanks -


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

OK, just had it running for about 10-15 minutes. Check the video to hear the engine ticking ...






It threw a P2297 code, but I think that was from when I opened the oil cap. Cleared that. Idling for 15 minutes, no codes, no oil light. As soon as I start driving, oil light pops on for a few seconds with 3 beeps. Goes off, then 10 seconds later does it again. Accelerating doesn't sound "right" ...

Hrm - when I pulled in it had thrown a P0333 code - Knock sensor 2 Circuit High Input Bank 2. Could that have anything to do with the loud ticking ?


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

Chatted with the service dept today about it. They haven't seen the video, but from description they think it's a clogged oil pickup or the N205 valve. That valve has to do with timing cam adjustment, damn thing is $175. So, will drop the pan this weekend to check the pickup. Any recommendations for replacement sealer/FIPG for the pan ?

If that's OK, then replace the N205 valve. I may pull the valve cover to look around as well - that will need a new gasket.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

what brand filter was used prior to you changing the oil?

when you changed it, was the old one collapsed?


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

le0n said:


> what brand filter was used prior to you changing the oil?
> 
> when you changed it, was the old one collapsed?


I've always used Mobil 1 filters. It didn't appear collapsed, or at least I didn't notice - I still have it at home and I'll check tonight. I've chatted with a couple of VW service depts. about this, and have a couple of things to check. 

Both thought to take a look at the upper N205 valve, see if that's clogged up. That should be easy - one screw/bolt to pull it I believe. 

2nd would be to drop the pan and check the oil pickup, ensure that isn't clogged. Need to get some FIPG sealer - any recommendations for that ?

Finally, pull the valve cover just to look around, see if anything looks amiss. Will need a replacement gasket for that, and it doesn't look too hard to do.

I have a 4-piece set of large triple-square/spline/12-point bits, but I'll have to check to make sure I have the right sizes.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

here's a diy for the pan (tool sizes): http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5673727-Has-anyone-replaced-the-oil-pan-and-pickup-tube

i'd probably go with the oe gasket sealant. call the dealership for it.


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

I pulled the N205 valve - I dunno, looks OK to me. I don't see any scoring or anything. Not sure how to verify it's OK ...

The car has only driven about 300 meters since this all started with the white cloud when my daughter started it. I'm not sure, but I think the oil in the well for the N205 looks a little dark for being brand new. Oil starvation of the head ??

In the next day or so I'll drop the pan to check the pickup tube. Perhaps I should run some sort of oil flush/clean through before I drain it again ? Seafoam or similar ?


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

the oil looks ok to me. it's probably just mixing with the oil in the engine.

a bad N205 valve should result with a related odb code.

i'm going to suggest you not do anything else until you at least get some vagcom testing/logging done on it.

someone can check the timing correlation to see if it is correct. if it's not, then they can assess if it is a failed tensioner or sensor.

seriously, it can save you lots of time and money. don't drive it anywhere and don't rev the engine.

good luck.


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

I agree - something's not right, so not starting it again until I have better diags. I did start it to back it out of garage to pull N205, and again to pull it in. Both times only about 20 seconds running. Sounded *normal* - no excessive ticking. That ticking only seemed to happen after I had pulled in after the 5-min test drives - again, is that paranoia or real ? Has anyone listened to that video ?

I clearly need more that the little obd2 scanner I have - vag-com ? What are the options there ?

The codes that have popped up so far are :

P2097 - Post Catalyst Fuel Trim System Too Rich Bank 1
Once, when I checked after daughter had started/stopped car. Hasn't re-occurred.

P0011 Volkswagen - 'A' Camshaft Position Timing Over-Advanced Or System Performance Bank 1
After 1st short test drive, after oil change. Hasn't re-occurred.

P0328 Volkswagen - Knock Sensor 1 Circuit High
P0333 Volkswagen - Knock Sensor 2 Circuit High
Both after 2nd short test drive. Did not trigger CEL, just pending codes.

I've idled it for 15 minutes or so - no oil light, no CEL, no codes.

Thanks for all your attention and advice.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

only other real option aside from vagcom diagnosis is the dealership.

check out this thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4991419-Vag-Com-Locator-searchable-map-style!-Owners-pm-me-your-info-requested-in-the-thread

i think that thread is still active. post a request and see if someone is near you. expect to throw a few bones their way if they have to come to you.

let us know if you find someone. they'll need to be able to check your timing correlation.


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

Very cool, thanks for the pointer. Have a request up there, hopefully someone can help out. Will definitely post up here with whatever happens with that poor car.


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

No replies yet on the vag-com map, nor to a couple of requests I made via PM. Hopefully soon ... In the meantime, I dropped the pan, and this is what I find.

The oil pickup is completely clogged with gunk. The bit of screen you can see there is where I scraped some away.


















THIS is what I scraped off the inside, and it's only a small part of it.










This is what the sump area looks like. Some of the sides are caked with gunk.


















You can see the screwdriver trails through the crap when I *gently* scraped it off. It's not hard, it's soft and gummy, but has a bit of a sandy texture look to it, but smooth when smooshed between fingertips.

*W. T. F. ???*

The pickup tube is soaking in acetone now, and I'll clean all the crap out of the baffles later on. Gah, what a job - what should I use for that ?? (10 minutes later, pickup tube is still gunked - acetone not doing much. Will leave it overnight. Brake cleaner ??)

But the big question is, is that gunk all throughout the engine ? Obviously I hope not, and only seems to be concentrated towards the front, near the dipstick. What the hell IS it ?

Now I'm definitely thinking I should pull the valve cover to check in there. If it's gunked in there, then crap  Otherwise, hopeful ...


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

wow.

can you assure that she was using VW502.00+ oil?


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

Yeah, wow. I know you get buildup of deposits, but this seems a little excessive ...

Hrm, for oils, not sure. Ever since I bought it from parents some years ago, yes, definitely. Done oil changes on schedule since then, all using Castrol Edge A3/B4 black, the 502.00/505.01. When they had it, no idea who put what oil in ...

I'm thinking that the Seafoam loosened up some of the crap which gummed up the pickup tube.

I'm going to clean out as much as I can (obviously), but I'm not sure how to approach the next steps. I'm thinking to do several oil changes in a row, each with at least one or two cans of Seafoam in them. Let the car idle for an hour or so to flush the oil, drain and change. Do that a couple of times, see if any more crap is being picked up in the screen and filter. I just worry that some of the smaller oil passages have been blocked up by the gummy sh*t.

At $50+ per change just for oil, that will run up pretty quickly ...

Any other suggestions ?


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

i'd suggest not throwing the oil out. just screen filter any large particles (if they even come out) and put it back in. it's not the oil that's bad, it's any potential passage-blocking sludge clumps that happens to become mobile.

i would suggest getting a new filter after screening the oil. just in case you've dislodged some things on the bottom end.

if the pickup tube was that clogged, it could have been seriously starving the engine of oil. this could easily explain the top end noise because the lack of oil reaching the cams and lifters. opting to pull the valve cover is a good idea. hopefully it is clean. hopefully that pickup screen did its job. if so, it just created a bottle-neck, hence the triggering of the oil pressure sensor.


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

Whups. I pulled the oil pickup tube and had it soaking in acetone to clean out the gunk. That kind of ruined/swelled the rubber o-ring/sleeve where it goes into the oil pump, as well as the rubber bushings around the mounting screws. Meh, no problem, just go get them from dealer ... Sleeve is easy, just not in stock. Have to order. Those screw bushings ? They only come with the screws, and there are - get this - exactly 7 in the continental USA. So I'm a couple of days from re-assembly ... 

I've cleaned out as much of the gunk as I can get to, but there are a couple of areas above the oil pump I just can't reach. I've liberally doused things in engine degreaser and brake cleaner which has loosened the stuff up so it will either slide off on its own or with a wipe-down. It's all looking much better.

Plan of attack :

Final blast with brake cleaner - remove all the degreaser residue.
Soak everything in PB-Blaster or MMO to ensure that there is *some* lubrication everywhere.
Oil pan and new filter in place.
Fill with oil and Chemtool B12 (nasty-ass solvent cleaner)
Let engine idle for 15-20 minutes.
Drain completely, replace oil filter, examine oil and filter - expecting blackness.
Fill with clean oil again.
Let engine idle for 30 minutes or more.
Drain completely, replace oil filter, examine oil and filter - should be much cleaner.
Drop pan to examine pickup and internals.
Replace pan with VW magic sealant (supposedly much better than Permatex Ultra grey)
Fill with new Castrol Edge A3/B3
Test drive !


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## killerbunny (Jul 10, 2008)

Halfwalker said:


> Whups. I pulled the oil pickup tube and had it soaking in acetone to clean out the gunk. That kind of ruined/swelled the rubber o-ring/sleeve where it goes into the oil pump, as well as the rubber bushings around the mounting screws. Meh, no problem, just go get them from dealer ... Sleeve is easy, just not in stock. Have to order. Those screw bushings ? They only come with the screws, and there are - get this - exactly 7 in the continental USA. So I'm a couple of days from re-assembly ...
> 
> I've cleaned out as much of the gunk as I can get to, but there are a couple of areas above the oil pump I just can't reach. I've liberally doused things in engine degreaser and brake cleaner which has loosened the stuff up so it will either slide off on its own or with a wipe-down. It's all looking much better.
> 
> ...


For the oil that you are going to throw away, where you planning on using cheap, conventional oil? Also I have had good luck using permetex black right stuff for all my sealing surfaces. I hope all this fixes you issues, your pick up looked nasty. How many miles were on the car? Mine looked nothing like that at 60k, I still rinsised it out but no real residues of any kind.


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

Cheap synthetic - Castrol GTX was $25 for a 5qt, same as the conventional. I remember reading somewhere (can't find it now) that the Chemtool B12 works "better" (whatever that means) with synthetic than with conventional. The Beetle has about 80k on it I think.

Permatex black, not the grey ? There's a difference in how they're applied, right ? One you have to let sit for a while before assembly, the other you assemble right away, but THEN let sit. Something like that. Then there's also the anaerobic sealants ...

The can for B12 no longer says it can be put in the crankcase, though the formula is the same. It's a pretty aggressive solvent mix, so that's not really surprising. It can be scary - I put it in a 2005 Highlander before an oil change, and it wouldn't start afterwards  Engine was warm, stop engine, put in B12 (too much admittedly), try to start, no go. So let it crank for a minute or so to work oil/B12 throughout, then let it sit.

When draining the oil seems thinner, as expected, and it was much darker than just before I put in the B12. New filter, new synthetic and a can of Liqui-Moly, and the Highlander is purring again.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

i wouldn't put a harsh solvent (b12) in your oil.

if you have the right oil and nothing clogging your pickup screen. you should get enough pressure to clean things up during normal operating temps.

the last thing you want to do is trash your valve stem seals. you'll have to rebuild the disassemble the head to remedy that error.


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

Hrm, that's true. Although the B12 is supposed to flash off very quickly as it works. They say (said) to only run it in the engine for a short time, 30 minutes or so. I was going to do even less, hopefully just enough to knock loose and hanging chads of crap for the filter to catch.

With the Highlander it definitely sloughed off some stuff. I checked the oil before putting it in, and what I drained out right after was definitely darker. It was only in there for some 5 minutes too. Perhaps that was some other reaction going on ?

I'm worried about chunks of crap getting into small passages. Anything I can do to make them more slurry-like to be caught in the oil filter and/or the screen ... I have 3 oil changes and 3 filters sitting ready to go. First with B12 for 15 minutes. Second just oil to rinse it all out. Last is the A3/B3 good stuff plus the Liqui-Moly, which should be going into a much cleaner engine.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

here's the thing though, you may want to open the valve cover. that is the other area in an engine where crank-case vapor is allowed to mix freely with oil in an open environment that is not an oil passage. you may find the exact same thing as you found in the oil pan.

check this out: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2015195&page=all

you don't want a solvent to cause anything on the top-end to become mobile.


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## killerbunny (Jul 10, 2008)

Halfwalker said:


> Cheap synthetic - Castrol GTX was $25 for a 5qt, same as the conventional. I remember reading somewhere (can't find it now) that the Chemtool B12 works "better" (whatever that means) with synthetic than with conventional. The Beetle has about 80k on it I think.
> 
> Permatex black, not the grey ? There's a difference in how they're applied, right ? One you have to let sit for a while before assembly, the other you assemble right away, but THEN let sit. Something like that. Then there's also the anaerobic sealants ...
> 
> ...



Permetex makes right stuff in black and grey. Both being "1-minute gaskets" so you do not have to wait for them to set up. I also agree with le0n that it would be worth taking the valve cover off. You can see how it looks up there, and if it is bad even manually clean up some. Taking off the valve cover takes no time at all.


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

Wow, that bobistheoilguy thread is something else. Definitely makes me rethink trying to loosen anything up from the top with solvents. I'll pull the valve cover tonight or tomorrow, just to see what's going on up there. Looks pretty easy - remove wiring harness and coil packs. Then T30 torx screws around the edge and down the center.

That oil pickup tube O-ring and the screws/sleeves should be in today or tomorrow. When I get them I'll get a new valve cover gasket as well - or should I use sealant on that as well ?


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## killerbunny (Jul 10, 2008)

Halfwalker said:


> Wow, that bobistheoilguy thread is something else. Definitely makes me rethink trying to loosen anything up from the top with solvents. I'll pull the valve cover tonight or tomorrow, just to see what's going on up there. Looks pretty easy - remove wiring harness and coil packs. Then T30 torx screws around the edge and down the center.
> 
> That oil pickup tube O-ring and the screws/sleeves should be in today or tomorrow. When I get them I'll get a new valve cover gasket as well - or should I use sealant on that as well ?


Use just the valve cover gasket, there is also a tightening order you should follow when you put the valve cover back on. You can find it in a Bentley manual.


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

OK, then. Looks like for the first few years of its life, this Beetle got dino oil maybe, and went long between changes. I got it some years ago, and did 5000m changes using Castrol Edge A3/B3 usually. Also looks like the detergents in the oil didn't really wash out the gunk.

BTW, those fricken' VW wiring clips are AWFUL. Bloody impossible to release. I snapped a bit off the N205 valve one, and struggled with the coil harness clips like you wouldn't believe. I know, you're supposed to push BACK on the top bit which should lift the catch away from the tab, but it doesn't. It needs help. Hear me VW ? ROTTEN design.

I pulled the valve cover tonight, and the whole thing is lined with a thin layer of gunk, may 1-2mm thick.









The cams themselves are pretty caked in it. I'm able to squooge off good-sized chunks with my fingers.

















So, how to proceed ? I'm going to *VERY* carefully scoop out as much as I can with my fingers and a plastic spoon I think. Want to make sure I don't drop any chunks. But what about the rest ? Especially what may be in the narrower oil passages ? I've read about a couple of methods ...

* Engine flush. They hook up a machine that goes between the oil filler and the drain plug, and it pumps flush/cleaner through the engine, sloughing away all the crap.
* Fill the engine right to the top with kerosene. Dissolves the gunk into suspension, so it can be carried out. Let it sit for a day, then drain.
* What I mentioned before - oil with a can or so of Chemtool B12, which should dissolve a lot of the gunk into suspension. Run the engine for 15 minutes with that, then drain. Trouble is, running at idle doesn't necessarily splash it all over, so it will miss some or a lot of gunk.

Is there any way to put some solvent down a passage, let it steep for a bit, then use compressed air to blow it out and down ?

There must be something that can be added to the oil to help dissolve the gunk. Doing oil/filter changes every 100 miles for a few times to get it all out is a cheap price to pay.

Opinions ? Options ?


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

this may or may not be possible, but maybe you can plug the main drain holes to where the kerosene doesn't flow down.

flood the top with kerosene > agitate > toothbrush around > suction it out > repeat


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

From the descriptions I've read, they actually fill it up right to the oil cap level, so the whole engine is soaked. Let it sit, then pop the drain plug and drain it all out. Sounds bloody scary.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

I meant to plug the drain holes for the head, without the valve cover.

That way your not filling the entire block with kerosene, just the top of the cylinder head.


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

Wouldn't we want the kerosene to flow down ? Get into all the oil passages and slurry away the crap ? I know, it will wash out the bearings etc. but once filled with oil again, I could crank the motor with the ECU fuses pulled. That way it will turn over slowly and pump the oil around.

Otherwise, anyone have a diagram of the oil passages that would need to be blocked off to fill the head only ? Thinking about what to use to block them off, maybe wine corks shaved down to fit ?


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

at this point in time, you are not even certain if there is any damage to to engine. do not spend an excessive amount of time & money here unless you know you have something good to work with.

sure, the sludge on top of the cylinder head is not something you want, but what i see there should not be detrimental at this point in time. if the sludge is as you've described, i don't see it coming off anytime soon without some serious elbow grease or solvent; i.e. normal operating temperatures and oil flow should not disturb what has been put in place over time.

clean and install the valve cover, close and connect everything, add the oil and fire it up. listen to the engine to see if the valve train noise has gone back to normal levels. test to see if the check engine light stays off, knock sensors are happy, things like that.

if the lower-engine sludge clean up allows you to experience the engine running like it should, then proceed with the complete engine flush of your choice.


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

I tend to agree, my gut feel is that the engine is likely OK. The oil starvation definitely happened due to the clogged pickup screen, but I only drove it 3 times for a few minutes each time to test. The oil pressure light only came on during accel.

I'm going to scoop out as much of the crap as I can get to. There are some pretty significant chunky looking bits there that should come out before they break loose. The valve cover has been hit with brake cleaner and is soaking in engine degreaser right now. But I'm not going for a sparkly clean head ...

I'll still do the two flushing oil changes. Haven't decided on the Chemtool B12 in the first oil change though, but I'm leaning towards it. I have the can, why not ? Run engine at idle for 15 minutes, then drain and change oil/filter. Run new oil/filter for somewhat longer, then drain and drop pan to check visually. Then final good oil/filter and hope for the best.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

sounds good.

also, check this out: http://www.ecstuning.com/News/VW_Volkswagen_Audi_Porsche_Schwaben_VAG_Connector_Removal_Tool/

if you don't want to wait for shipping, i'm sure your dremel tool can make you one of these out of a soft bolt.


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

Awesome - the perfect tool. And it PISSES me off that one would need a damn tool to release those connectors. There are a *bajillion* connector designs out there that do NOT need a tool.

What goes through engineers' minds when they make these decisions ? It's like the placement of the distributor in a 98 Cabrio (daughter's car). One pop-off clip is up against the block, so you need a long screwdriver to release it. That's not TOO bad, but it's next to impossible to get it clipped back on to the distributor cap - you have to use pair of screwdrivers from above and below. If they had just rotated the cap 45 degrees, thumbs would have worked fine.


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

What with all the cleaning and whatnot, I totally forgot about the PCV valve. So I had brake-cleaner'd and degreaser'd and hosed off the valve cover. Then ... heard some sloshing in it, and went *augh* ...

So, popped off the PCV valve cover/diaphragm, removed the spring and retainer plate and cleaned them off as best I could. Once thing I've noticed, the brake-cleaner seems to leave behind a brown rusty very thin residue here and there. The cushion of the diaphragm and the face of the retainer plate in particular, but also on the valve cover itself. What is it ?










I've sprayed the PCV valve area like crazy and it's still dripping oily. I guess just more degreaser and/or brake-cleaner, and hosing it out with water. I think the PCV valve is OK, more or less. If I block the vent hole on the cap, the diaphragm only leaks a tiny bit. Isn't there a kit to replace it somewhere ?

Been at work on the head with plastic spoon, toothbrush and paper towels. Got a lot of the gunk out, but by no means is it clean yet. It wasn't quite as thick everywhere as it looks, only in certain spots. On top of the cam caps for example - most everywhere else it's a thin rime of gunk. A good method seemed to be to soak the toothbrush in brake-cleaner, then use it in an upward brushing motion, scooping stuff up. The bristles catch almost all of the ****. Then squeeze the bristles in a paper towel to remove the ****, repeat.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

DORMAN 917-064 PCV Valve-PCV Valve Diaphragm


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

Hah, perfect ! Ordered, on the way and here by Sat. Love Amazon.


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

I think she'll live Jim !

Buttoned it up, added oil and started it up. About 2 seconds of rough sounding, then went normal. Didn't rev it, just let it idle for about 10 minutes to warm up. Went to add the B12, but as soon as the oil cap is opened it almost stalls out. OK, use a funnel and pour it down the dipstick tube, no problem. About 1/2 way through the engine note changed just a tiny bit, not sure what.

Let it idle like that for about 20 minutes then stopped and drained. Oil ran out a little quicker/thinner than I expected, but that's probably paranoia stepping in again. It wasn't too dirty, but very definitely darker than when it went in.

New filter and oil is in now but no additives at all, will let it sit idling for about an hour or so. Both of these have been Castrol GTX synthetic, 10-40. After lunch it will be the new Mobil-1 filter and Castrol Edge A3/B3 and a can of Liqui-Moly. Then the test drive.

So far the engine sounds OK. Perhaps a little bit tickier than it used to, but you know, paranoia. The note hasn't changed since that first start. I'll put up a video, see if anyone finds the sounds normal or uh-oh ...

(few hours later)

One thing of note - the new PCV valve diaphragm was not attached to the cover. The old one stuck on there good, I actually tore it trying to take it off the cover. I'm guessing it was just age/etc that melded it to the cover. Looking at it, the lip of the diaphragm looks like it's held in place by the circular rim of the opening.

OK, I think she's a-gonna be A-OK. That last drain looked fine, a teeny bit darker. Filter looked clean. Final oil change (6 qts Castrol Edge plus Liqui-Moly) and filter are in. Took it out for a 5-minute test drive, and it all felt good. No oil pressure light, downshifted as usual, and seemed to have normal pickup going up the hill. No codes thrown. Tomorrow will go for a more extended drive down into town, but I'm not expecting (hoping) anything bad.

In 500 miles or so I'll put another can of B12 into it, do the same let-it-idle-20-minutes, and change oil/filter. It probably needs more than 20 minutes, but I'll take it slow, multiple applications. Each time will dissolve more stuff out into suspension to be caught by the filter.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

This was the update I was waiting for. The injectors are noisy on this engine; so it is probably normal noises.

The fact that it isn't throwing timing codes is very good news.

Good work! 

In for the next update.


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

It did have a few codes, but inconsequential I think.

P2097 - that was from when I opened the oil filler cap to pour in the B12. Expected.
P0328 - Knock sensors.
P0333 - Knock sensors. I think those were "pending" codes from the earlier test drives.

I've verified that there are no active or pending codes. A longer test drive will prove things out.


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

OK, long test drive last night. Ran fine, sounds fine, no codes or anything. The magic elixer (many hours of sweat) seems to have done the job. 

I'll change the oil/filter again in about 500 miles, maybe with another 20-minute shot of B12. Might pop off the valve cover again to see how that's doing - that's an easy 10-minute job, and the gasket should be re-usable. Actually when I first pulled it off, the original one was in great condition, but I replaced it anyway.

Many thanks for all the advice


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

glad to hear she's running smoothly again.

that magical elixir 

thanks for sharing this experience with everyone.


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

Oh dear ... Looks like I may have spoken too soon.

Took it out last Wed, maybe 20 miles all told. Performed flawlessly as far as I could tell. Took it to work today, 15 miles each way. No problem going, but coming back on highway I noticed the barest stutter, like it had bad gas. Just a small arrhythmic pulse while cruising at 65mph or so. Letting off gas completely made it go away, and accelerating *seemed* to be OK, but cruise had that stutter.

When I pulled off the exit, accelerating onto the road it *really* stumbled. Badly. Then picked up. And I noticed quite the cloud of smoke behind it  It was inconsistent - it would pull normally, then stutter a bit. Starting from a standing stop was horrible, big cloud of smoke out the rear. But not every time - maybe 1/3 of the starts were normal. The CEL flickered a few times, but never stayed on, and it didn't throw any codes. Oil is perfect level, no oil light, and it still looks nice and clean.

I also noticed a nasty knock sound when it was stuttering. Completely not there when it was pulling normally though. Sounded a bit like the run-on you hear for old beater cars in movies, maybe a bit more metallic.

Crap. NOW what ? Any ideas ? When I have some time in a few days I'll drop the pan again to look around.

:banghead:


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

Chatted with the dealer service tech a bit today. They think it's probably timing - maybe slipped a tooth. Feels like it when it's doing that stuttering, but it's not consistent. That is, it will drive totally normally, then suddenly do the stuttering cloudy bit, then normal again. Weird that it had about a hour of normalcy before this started up.

If it HAD slipped a tooth on the timing chain, wouldn't the trouble be continuous ? It can't slip BACK a tooth, back to normal, can it ? I don't see how.

<sigh> If it's toast, I guess I'm looking for a replacement engine. They seem to be around $1200 or so. Anyone have a pointer to a good pictorial howto on removing the 2.5L from a Beetle ?


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## mdr (Dec 30, 2005)

Wild guess. Sticky injector?


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

Gah, I dunno. What would the symptoms be for a sticky injector ? How can I test ?

Just got home and took it out for a test drive. On startup, big cloud of smoke, mainly whitish, not blue, so I don't think it's oil. But it idled fine. Okaaaay, so out I go. It drove perfectly fine. Bit of a cloud on leaving the driveway, but no stumbling. Drove up and down a few times, pushed it. Went to "manual" (it's an auto) and kept it in 2nd up the rpm range etc. No problems at all. No more smoke. I don't think the timing chain has slipped a tooth, or it would be having trouble all the time, right ?

I had the silver engine cover off, and when I opened the bonnet, things seemed a little ... hot. But that might just be because the engine cover was off, and my own paranoia. No obvious signs of any distress - oil level is perfect, oil looks clean. Coolant level is fine. No warning lights, no CEL.

I'll try another startup tomorrow morning, see if throws a cloud again. Hrm, maybe I'll send an oil sample off to Blackstone for analysis.

Could it be a blown head gasket ? I was thinking maybe the new PCV valve was iffy, excess oil going into the intake, but the smoke was whitish, not blue.


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

Just started a few minutes ago (didn't have time this AM). Big puff of white smoke, then normal idle. The smoke stopped immediately, just the initial puff (big).

When I shut it down after the drive yesterday it was running fine, no smoke. So it's almost as if something is pooling somewhere, and given the smoke is white, sounds like coolant. Getting towed to the dealer for diagnostics next Wed.

I'm tempted to take it out for another test drive, but I don't really know what that would prove.


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## mdr (Dec 30, 2005)

Seafoam makes a voluminous write cloud. I wonder if B12 gets sucked in from the pcv system what it would look like. If it got in the exhaust it might take awhile for the system to get hot enough to burn it off.

Don't remember if you pulled the plugs to set what they looked like. Might be worth a look.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

Halfwalker said:


> Just started a few minutes ago (didn't have time this AM). Big puff of white smoke, then normal idle. The smoke stopped immediately, just the initial puff (big).
> 
> When I shut it down after the drive yesterday it was running fine, no smoke. So it's almost as if something is pooling somewhere, and given the smoke is white, sounds like coolant. Getting towed to the dealer for diagnostics next Wed.
> 
> *I'm tempted to take it out for another test drive, but I don't really know what that would prove.*



this time, have someone else drive the vehicle and you drive behind it in another vehicle (without the ac recirculating or with the windows down). see if you can distinguish a burning coolant or burning oil smell. just because you can't see the cloud in your rear-view, doesn't mean it's not there.


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

mdr said:


> Seafoam makes a voluminous write cloud. I wonder if B12 gets sucked in from the pcv system what it would look like. If it got in the exhaust it might take awhile for the system to get hot enough to burn it off.
> 
> Don't remember if you pulled the plugs to set what they looked like. Might be worth a look.


There was still a little drippy brown oily residue in the valve cover that I just couldn't get completely cleaned out. Sprayed and sprayed with brake cleaner, hosed it out, the works. And when it dried, I could tilt it around, and there would be some of the crap dripping out. Not much, but some.

Didn't pull the plugs - I might do that tonight. Don't know why I didn't think of doing that.

So last week when I started it, there was that big puff of white smoke, etc etc. I started it again yesterday, and this time it was only small puff of white smoke. Again, it stopped pretty quickly, but I did notice that there was a constant very thin stream of white smoke coming out the tailpipe. I think I simply didn't notice it last week.

Each time it's only run for a few minutes. After I've checked the plugs, I think I'll let it idle for longer, see if the smoke increases or decreases. Then Wed it will go to the dealer for diags on Thu. On the phone they thought it was timing. Hopefully that's *all* it is.

What's involved in pulling the head if it's a blown head gasket ? How about the upper timing chain ? If the motor is fried, well then. Will need a good howto on pulling the motor ...:facepalm:


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

Didn't get time to to pull the plugs. It's at the dealer now, and they're looking at it. Probably be a couple of days. I stopped in today to chat about it ...

Replacing the timing chains is apparently a stone bitch. If you're doing the uppers, you really should do the lowers too, in which case you're dropping the trans and it's an 18-hour job. Plus parts. You would "normally" pull the engine to set the timing. It's cheaper to just get a new long block.

Straight out replacing the engine - you have to remove the whole nose of the car. Bumper and fenders all come off as one. Even then it's also a stone bitch.

Man, I hope it's something simple


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

*She's dead Jim*

Had a few hours of "it might be OK" when they found that the front O2 sensor was toast and causing a very rich condition sometimes. The dealer replaced that, and had the car running with no problems for a while.

Then, poof - HUGE cloud of white smoke, filled the shop  So they used a bore-scope to check out the cylinders. And they see metal, and crap caked on in there. They're calling the engine done.

So, options ? I'll be getting quotes from the dealer and a couple of local shops to replace the engine. As I said before, it looks like a replacement will be around $1200 shipped or so. Estimates on labor/hours ? I'm willing to give it a go myself (never pulled an engine before) but would need some guidance. Oh, and an engine lift - HarborFreight here I come.


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## le0n (Jun 12, 2013)

that is so strange. it makes absolutely no sense why metal loss and crap in there would allow the engine to run properly sometimes and all of a sudden dump the smoke you're describing.

and a toasted front o2 sensor will definitely throw codes.

i'm thinking it is a timing issue that evolved from the sludge. the upper chain tensioner has those oil ports in it. i wonder if they have something intermittently clogging them.

check it out:


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

Maybe a warped head ? Or blown head gasket ? The only thing I know that can make *white* smoke is water/coolant. So somehow water is getting into one or more of the cylinders.

I know it's an interference engine, so if the timing got thrown really badly, perhaps a valve or two got smashed.

I've talked to a couple of places nearby about a swap. Looks like the book has it around 10-12 hours or so - that was their guess before they actually quote it out. So $1200 for an engine, then 10-15 hours at $110/hour ... I saw the "Gender change" thread in the New Beetle forum - I'm hoping someone has done a write-up or something on pulling the engine. I would rather do it myself I think - hate spending the $$ ...


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## Halfwalker (Aug 16, 2014)

Just a mild update ... Car is at BNR getting a 2008 6k motor put in. Price was too reasonable - by the time I had bought the engine hoist, stand and other tools to do it myself, it was only another $500 or so for them to do it. And it's warranted ...

I'll bring the old engine back and dig into it, see what exactly went wrong. I doubt it will be worth the parts to repair, but maybe. At minimum I will have to pull the head and all the timing chain crap to see what happened.

Hrm, how heavy is the 2.5L without trans/starter/belt-driven etc. ? Any chance it will fit into the back of a typical SUV (Toyota Highlander) ?


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