# 2.5 Swap into MKiV Track Car



## WOB-SH573 (Apr 21, 2005)

After a few years away from the track I'm itching to get back at it and have been thinking about putting a 2.5 in my 2001 Golf track car.
My car was at one point a 450 WHP 1.8t but after blowing it up 3 times:banghead::banghead: I had to take a break...
What I'm thinking of doing is a NA 2.5 with a goal of 210-220 whp in the hopes of more reliability. 
Since my car is pretty light, 2300 lbs wet it should still be fun at track days. 
I'm new to the 2.5 & I have a few questions:

-How many of you have been tracking your cars regularly?
-Other than the timing chain issues on the earlier motors what problems/issues have you had when tracking them?

Thank you. 

My car:


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## apexT (Sep 2, 2008)

Headgaskets leaking oil externally. I would be worried about aftermarket support but hey its half a Lambo motor! After the short run of head gasket failure and timing chain stretch these motors have proven to be pretty stout even when neglected. Not sure about track abuse with this motor, hoping someone will chime in because I am very interested in this. Rebuilding them is easy its very similar to a VR6.


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## WOB-SH573 (Apr 21, 2005)

Thanks for the reply, hadn't heard about the Head Gasket issues yet. 
Hope some of you out there have some solid track time on the 2.5 to share :beer:


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

Talk with Bluewater. There 2.5 is turbo'd but it definitely sees the track.

I havent heard of the head gasket issue either. 


As far as your goal of 210-220whp. At this very moment it will be difficult. But soon enough there will be more part to get that type of power from a NA setup.


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## WOB-SH573 (Apr 21, 2005)

mldouthi said:


> Talk with Bluewater. There 2.5 is turbo'd but it definitely sees the track.
> 
> I havent heard of the head gasket issue either.
> 
> ...


Cool thanks, I'll chat with them. I've talked to Peter at Integrated about cams etc for the 2.5, if that all comes together they would be part of my plan. 
I just want no part of maintaining a high WHP turbo track car these days, it was fun but I spent more time fixing then driving...


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## apexT (Sep 2, 2008)

Once you start stripping the engine down to replace the gasket I've found every time there are a few head bolts that are always loose. The headbolts in question aren't actually near the combustion chambers but near the timing chain housing area. Also Nothing leaves stock in pennsylvania I think? have done some tuning with the 2.5 Theres a guy in this area who has a cammed, chipped rabbit that also has a custom short runner intake manifold from NLS I beleive.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

apexT said:


> Once you start stripping the engine down to replace the gasket I've found every time there are a few head bolts that are always loose. The headbolts in question aren't actually near the combustion chambers but near the timing chain housing area. Also Nothing leaves stock in pennsylvania I think? have done some tuning with the 2.5 Theres a guy in this area who has a cammed, chipped rabbit that also has a custom short runner intake manifold from NLS I beleive.


C2 does the tuning for NLS. A cammed 2.5???? He must be a hermit to have kept that a secret, and it must be a custom grind. I wonder if it actually makes power. Also, the rumor from IE, the only company know that is developing cams say that to get any real power out of cams head work will need to be done for clearances. 

Also as a side note if you havent seen what these motors can take. The BW car is making over 800whp. And they have several customer cars making just under 400whp on the stock motor.


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## HelloMyNameIs (Aug 2, 2011)

mldouthi said:


> Also as a side note if you havent seen what these motors can take. The BW car is making over 800whp. And they have several customer cars making just under 400whp on the stock motor.


Do you know what they did about the gearbox? 6mt swap? I thought the trans was a weak point on these cars (both auto & 5mt). I know my 5MT feels less than stellar at times...my diff bearing was shot @ 40K and [thankfully] replaced under warranty.


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## vwluger22 (Jan 25, 2005)

mldouthi said:


> C2 does the tuning for NLS. A cammed 2.5???? He must be a hermit to have kept that a secret, and it must be a custom grind. I wonder if it actually makes power.


I have seen the car a few times it was Josh's old rabbit. I don't believe it is cammed but did something to play with it maybe Josh will chime in but I don't think it made a huge difference. The intake manifold I think was the original prototype for C2 looks like a box also he made a custom header for it. 

Car in question









edit: Had a seamless valve cover too from what I recall. Man a lot of this is long before most of the people around here now.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

HelloMyNameIs said:


> Do you know what they did about the gearbox? 6mt swap? I thought the trans was a weak point on these cars (both auto & 5mt). I know my 5MT feels less than stellar at times...my diff bearing was shot @ 40K and [thankfully] replaced under warranty.


Yes, they swapped a 6mt along with a haldex out of an R32. The 5mt is weak, but people have gotten away with just upgrading the clutch.


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## WOB-SH573 (Apr 21, 2005)

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm looking at using an O2M from a MkIV car, from what I hear it will bolt up but requires a little grinding in the case to fit. I had good luck with the O2M, it was one of the few things I didn't blow up!


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

WOB-SH573 said:


> Thanks for the replies guys. I'm looking at using an O2M from a MkIV car, from what I hear it will bolt up but requires a little grinding in the case to fit. I had good luck with the O2M, it was one of the few things I didn't blow up!


All you have to do is grind 2 tabs off. 

thygreyt has a thread on his swap I think.


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## Jefnes3 (Aug 17, 2001)

Re: joshs old car

it had a rough version of the current UM sri, made by Howie at HEP.

cams: i fiddled with modifying stock cams on his car. The net result was no gains/losses, this is why the mods never became a released product.
I sold out of c2 and josh sold the car before proper sri software was developed.

any vw transmission will hold up to an n/a 2.5L. The O2M 6sp will likely be a better pick for the track with more ratios... go short on the final drive to use high rpm that the 2.5 can handle. Just sort the serp belt tendency to hop off at high revs.

IE will release cams, they are too far down the devel path not to.

Talk to Bluewater, they've done lightweight valvetrain parts ect. on the head.

Easiest ecu/ wiring to swap in is '05 to '08 these are ME7. Nearly plug and play.
Bluwater has done a few 2.5 into mk4 cars. All the motors basically are the same.

Jeffrey Atwood


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## WOB-SH573 (Apr 21, 2005)

Jefnes3 said:


> Re: joshs old car
> 
> it had a rough version of the current UM sri, made by Howie at HEP.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the reply Jeff. I think we may have talked on the phone about a year ago or so, I've been out of action for a wile with the VW...
As it stand now my car has no wiring in it at all, just a roler with a cage. More than anything else this is the part of getting the swap to work that concerns me. I looked at standalone but think the cost will be to high. 
What I'm after is for the car to be as simple as possible, since it will never be driven on a public road I'd like to eliminate as much extra stuff as possible. 
This is where it sits, I have the dash panel it will go back in.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

yup, jeff knows 

-thats SRI was made by howie at HEP for us. i beleive the 1st ever ?
-tune was done by jeff, he left C2 then we dyno tuned another(racecar sri) and swapped software for the new owner of my car. runs great now.
-cams...mod'd but not the lift or grind. they "moved" the power range, but didn't gain or hurt anything. nothing more came of them from what i know, they are still int he car tho and working fine.
-header runners were too big, i think jeff would agree there. added back pressure to the exhaust and worked MUCH better
-made over 200whp now
-what hatch wing are you using?


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

mldouthi said:


> All you have to do is grind 2 tabs off.
> 
> thygreyt has a thread on his swap I think.


02m quattro, only had to take a 1/4 lip off one part. Didn't remove any tabs 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## WOB-SH573 (Apr 21, 2005)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> yup, jeff knows
> 
> -thats SRI was made by howie at HEP for us. i beleive the 1st ever ?
> -tune was done by jeff, he left C2 then we dyno tuned another(racecar sri) and swapped software for the new owner of my car. runs great now.
> ...


Cool thanks for the info. Rear wing was something I got from Euro Sport, not sure who made it though. It was the one they used on their MKIV car for the Eurotuner challenge. 
Worked well on my car which was always a little nervous in high speed braking.

So, in the case of my car which has no wiring in it I'm curious what path you'd take.


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> 02m quattro, only had to take a 1/4 lip off one part. Didn't remove any tabs
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


Sorry for the bad description, I havent done it myself but the pictures I have seen of the modifications I would call the area a tab.

But im not arguing, you actually did it :thumbup:


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

mldouthi said:


> Sorry for the bad description, I havent done it myself but the pictures I have seen of the modifications I would call the area a tab.
> 
> But im not arguing, you actually did it :thumbup:



Its all good.

Modifications shown here:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...hp-or-bust&p=76023359&viewfull=1#post76023359
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## mldouthi (Jun 26, 2010)

Pat @ Pitt Soundworks said:


> Its all good.
> 
> Modifications shown here:
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...hp-or-bust&p=76023359&viewfull=1#post76023359
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


Those were the pictures I remember seeing. I thought they had ears above the bolt holes. haha.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

About time you posted up! Let me know if you need any help. In the spring I am going to show case all the 2.5 projects we have been working on. Brought on some external help for the older cars but the B5 chassis and MKIV is going to be pretty exciting. Rotiform sent me BBS E8* centerlock's today for trial fitment.....that should get some people wet 


Jefnes3 said:


> any vw transmission will hold up to an n/a 2.5L. The O2M 6sp will likely be a better pick for the track with more ratios... go short on the final drive to use high rpm that the 2.5 can handle. Just sort the serp belt tendency to hop off at high revs.


If he is staying N/A I would imagine an 02J would be a better choice since there are quite a few gear ratio's / final drives for him to choose from out there vs the 02M / 02Q.
Check your PM btw.


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## WOB-SH573 (Apr 21, 2005)

Issam Abed said:


> About time you posted up! Let me know if you need any help. In the spring I am going to show case all the 2.5 projects we have been working on. Brought on some external help for the older cars but the B5 chassis and MKIV is going to be pretty exciting. Rotiform sent me BBS E8* centerlock's today for trial fitment.....that should get some people wet
> 
> If he is staying N/A I would imagine an 02J would be a better choice since there are quite a few gear ratio's / final drives for him to choose from out there vs the 02M / 02Q.
> Check your PM btw.


HI Issam, I know I've been off the radar for quite a while....Hope to come back with the Golf soon
On the transmission side I'm a little worries about an O2J, I had one in my 1.8t and the 3rd gear synco went pretty quickly on it. I sold the O2MttQ box I had so I'm also looking for a transmission for the project. 

Ok, so solid advice on motor & trans. What I need now is some help in how to proceed with wiring the car, as I mentioned it has NO wiring in it at all. 
Do I:
-Try and put a harness in from a newer 2.5 car?
- Run it on a standalone?
-What becomes of the ABS system? 

thanks:beer:


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

when i have time i'll respond to your PM...i'll send you info on what we did for our mk1 2.5L swap.
give me a bit 

your car? i'd do standalone.:wave:


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## WOB-SH573 (Apr 21, 2005)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> when i have time i'll respond to your PM...i'll send you info on what we did for our mk1 2.5L swap.
> give me a bit
> 
> your car? i'd do standalone.:wave:


Cool thanks  looking forward to your reply.


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## apexT (Sep 2, 2008)

The later 2.5s had just a MAP sensor kind of nice to not worry about vac leaks or leaning out, especially if you ever wanted a turbocharger.


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## nothing-leaves-stock (Mar 1, 2005)

imo....its a track car. trying to wire in a newer oem harness and ecu and tuning to get max race power...isn't the best way.

i'd do standalone for sure on this one.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

nothing-leaves-stock said:


> i'd do standalone for sure on this one.


:thumbup:

VEMS has a nice 2.5 specific unit that will pretty much do everything you want. Like Josh said if it is a track car ....standalone. The sky becomes the limit as to what you can and can not do. No more emissions , no more picky throttle body options , no more coil pack issues.

5 GM Coils + 5 plug wires = for life.


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## bobsuncle (Oct 18, 2012)

Issam Abed said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> VEMS has a nice 2.5 specific unit that will pretty much do everything you want. Like Josh said if it is a track car ....standalone. The sky becomes the limit as to what you can and can not do. No more emissions , no more picky throttle body options , no more coil pack issues.
> 
> 5 GM Coils + 5 plug wires = for life.


My God, I wish this was road legal. If they'd just shove a sensor in the arse end, tuning a car properly would pass irregardless of mods.


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