# Twin-turbo CIS vintage engine



## Turbopackman (Jun 28, 2009)

I hope this is the place to be, as I've been doing some research for quite some time on CIS systems, and I'm thinking using one on a project that I'm working on. This project is not your run of the mill engine, and the reason why I'm going with a K-Jetronic style injection system is for the vintage look. Sure, I could go with a Megasquirt or adapt Ford/GM EFI to my engine, but that defeats the purpose I'm aiming for. I like the idea of the constant flow injection, as I don't have to worry about timing issues with the injectors, since the engine I'm using has an odd firing order. What engine you ask? Well, it's a Packard 327 cid straight eight. Now that I've let that out, does anyone have any tips and pointers for me to save a lot of time and money? The main reason for going to fuel injection is the turbos, and I don't really want to do a draw through carb setup. Also, I'm going to be running E85, so I know I'll need '86 and up parts.
Any help would be appreciated!!










_Modified by Turbopackman at 10:17 PM 6-27-2009_


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## turbinepowered (Mar 19, 2007)

With a straight-8 your best bet is going to be start scrounging for the Mercedes V8 downdraft setups. Makes a lot more sense than trying to balance airflow through two 4-cylinder metering plates. 
Pics or this engine doesn't exist. 
If you get a CIS basic fuel distributor, like those used pre-1980s, it's a steel bodied fuel distributor that stands up well to ethanol. No electronics, no frequency valves or oxygen sensors or differential pressure regulators, and they really only have one fuel adjustment to make.
CIS-Lambda, with the frequency valve but no DPR, I believe also uses a steel bodied fuel distributor. CIS-E is definitely aluminum, and _might_ not be compatible beyond E10. I'm working on establishing that now.


_Modified by turbinepowered at 5:43 PM 6-28-2009_


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## Turbopackman (Jun 28, 2009)

*Re: (turbinepowered)*

I'm thinking of the Mercedes 450 SEL or similar setup, if I can find one "reasonably" priced.
As for pics, ask and ye shall receive, but keep in mind I'm still in the development stages right now, and I'm just getting the manifolds made, and I'm at the point to decide on fuel injection or 4 SU carbs, so the manifold's not done.
Pic of the car so far: 








Pic of the engine: 








Another pic of the engine: (an early pic when I first got started)








More or less what I'm aiming for, although this one is a '29 and I'm doing a '36, so the grille is different but you get the idea of the body style:








I have plenty more if needed. 
{Edited to try and resize pics}

_Modified by Turbopackman at 5:58 PM 6-28-2009_

_Modified by Turbopackman at 6:00 PM 6-28-2009_


_Modified by Turbopackman at 6:08 PM 6-29-2009_


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## turbinepowered (Mar 19, 2007)

Sweetness. Doing any mods to the engine, other than fuel? Compression, timing, anything like that?


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## Turbopackman (Jun 28, 2009)

*Re: (turbinepowered)*

Oh yes, plenty of mods to the engine. Forged pistons, 10:1 static compression, all the old hotrodder "ported and relieving" techniques, larger valves, and a general smoothing of all the inside oiling surfaces to help oil drainback. Also, I'm working on a more modern oil pump with a spin on oil filter attached, and I've already done HEI on both the straight eight and V8 Packards. Stock HP was about 150, I plan on doubling that at least. The main problem is, these engines are only good to about 5000 rpm, so the turbos have to be small to spool up faster. I've got a pair of Chrysler 2.5L turbos, and from what I've dug up about them they're perfect for what I'm doing. This is where the FI comes in, as I going blow through with the turbos, and don't really want to mess around with carbs, but need a vintage, (or vintage looking) non-electronic FI system. A Hilborn FI is too dang expensive!


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## Turbopackman (Jun 28, 2009)

*Re: (Turbopackman)*

Well I found a nice Mercedes 560 fuel distributor and air flow meter, but I'm wondering if you can blow through the air meter, as opposed to drawing through it. It would make my installation a LOT easier if you can without too much trouble, but I've been reading about the air flow meter not taking too kindly to sudden changes in air flow, but I really don't see how it would make much difference either way. Any tips?


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## Longitudinal (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (Turbopackman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Turbopackman* »_Well I found a nice Mercedes 560 fuel distributor and air flow meter, but I'm wondering if you can blow through the air meter, as opposed to drawing through it.

It needs to be draw-through, else you have metering problems due to lost volume of the intake charge.
Hey,
Resizing must be done where the pics are hosted, or before they are hosted. If you want to resize wherever the image is hosted, or resize then re-host the image, that will work. If you end up changing pic addresses, you will need to update your original link as well.
The MB V8 unit may be the easiest because it is one piece, but it does present a disadvantage or two. The first I can think of is that the downdraft units have those squirrely tube nuts, for which you must build adapters to use the enormously more common banjo bolt fuel hoses.
Separating the engine into two I4s (from a management position) would be very cool, and would use much more common four cylinder CIS parts. Balancing flow isn't so hard, and the units do not flow with perfectly even distribution anyway; wear and gumming of the distributors and injectors will cause small variations. Also, perfectly even fuel distribution is only relevant when it is accompanied by perfectly even air distribution, which is NOT going to happen with anything resembling the original IM.
Aside from that, this is probably not a 1000 horsepower turbo setup. A tiny difference in mixture from one cylinder to the other is really not a problem until boost pressures run high and everything is so close to the edge that a slight lean condition leads to a knock, then BOOM.
Any way you slice it, I would love to see a CIS Packard! It will run better, make more power, be more reliable and get better economy than with the carb(s.)
E85 will present challenges to tuning CIS, also. If you are good with computers, you could modify the factory computer(s) to operate at the approximately 9:1 stoich of E85. 
If you want vintage injection and cannot make it work with CIS, there is always Hilborn.


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## Turbopackman (Jun 28, 2009)

*Re: (Longitudinal)*

Yeah, I got it fixed, took me a little bit to get the last one smaller though.
I've thought about the dual 4 cylinder units, but was worried about getting them to flow evenly. As for HP, I'm thinking 300 tops, double what it put out from the factory, and it would be the most powerful Packard straight eight on the planet, which is saying a lot. I do like the idea of the dual 4 cylinder units, as it would have to be cheaper to find a pair of those than one for a V8 Mercedes, which I just priced today @ $495, including everything from the air flow meter and fuel distributor to the lines and the injectors, as well as the fuel pressure regulator. A little pricey if you ask me, but there's a couple of V8 units on eBay right now that I'm watching and will see what happens. I'm thinking that two large 4 cylinder air meters will flow more than one single V8 Mercedes unit. 
As for computers, the reason why I want to use the CIS unit is because I don't want anything to do with computers. That, and CIS is a lot cheaper than a Hilborn setup, by far. Since I haven't bought anything yet, my options are still open.


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## Longitudinal (Nov 13, 2004)

*Re: (Turbopackman)*

Twin four cylinder units will definitely flow more fuel than the V8 unit, plus you can use five cylinder units and block off one port on each. These flow more still than the four cylinder units.
As for the "'86 and later" E85 compatibility, I can neither confirm or deny. But I can say that ALL '86 and later CIS units are CIS-E or CIS Lambda, both of which use computers. If you were able to run E85 through an old basic unit, I don't know if you could ever mechanically adjust the system to supply 30% more fuel under all conditions. 
CIS-E and CIS Lambda can run without their computers, but cold start-up behavior is a bit rough. You could build a module to provide more fuel under boost, but it would be an on-off arrangement and not very responsive to mid-range throttle and load/boost.
The computers are simple and easy to wire. Unless you have a real problem with using computers, I suggest that you keep them. The car will run much better with them than without--under all conditions.
Are you sure about E85? 300 HP out of a twin turbo 327 CI engine is easy, even for a flathead. Compression on all flatheads is low--just the nature of the beast and the need to get the flame over top the pistons at high crank positions.


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## Turbopackman (Jun 28, 2009)

*Re: (Longitudinal)*

I don't want to use the computer for two reasons, I'd have to hide the wiring and the computer, and two, I just don't want to mess with it, hence my thinking of an early non-computer unit. So, it looks like a pre-'86 unit(s) might be in order. (Just don't get on to me about the MSD ignition controller I plan on using!)
300 HP out of a straight eight Packard would be quite an accomplishment, as the rods are longer than the deck height in most of the VW engines you guys deal with and top, max, it-will-blow-up-if-you-go-any-further rpm is 5000. All my power will have to be made down low, and I plan on putting a 4500 RPM limit on it.
I like E85 because it cools the engine and there's a lot of power to be made with it. I don't care about mileage that much, since this is just a toy anyway. BUT, I like the fact that I can buy E85 locally for normally less than regular pump gas, and I don't have to buy drums of racing gas at $6 a gallon just to cruise on a Saturday night. 
I'm not trying to sound rude or crude, I just want to avoid computers as much as I can since I'm trying to make this as vintage looking as possible. 
So, I guess the question now is, will the early CIS units work in this situation, or is it recommended that I get a later one with a computer? And on top of that, if I run two of these CIS units, do I need to run two computers?


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## Turbopackman (Jun 28, 2009)

*Re: (Turbopackman)*

Well I've ended up getting a CIS unit from a 1986 500 SEL, with all 9 injectors for $60 off of eBay. I'm thinking of using the 9th injector as a boost triggered additional fuel injector to add fuel when it gets to about 8-10 psi. Drawing through the CIS unit won't be a problem, as now that I have it in my hand and can see the size of it I've got the turbos and plumbing figured out. Turbos mounted low, with both turbo inlets facing each other, and those connected together to a common throttle body which in turn is connected to the bottom of the CIS unit. I didn't get the WUR, and am wondering if you really need it for what I'm doing since I'm not using the computer on this. Any ideas?


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## ShaggysGTI (May 15, 2009)

That's pretty dope. Keep up the good work and info! I need draw through CIS turbo info too!


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## Longitudinal (Nov 13, 2004)

Good. You got the rubber boot on the bottom. That will make plumbing much easier. Fuel flow to the cold start valve is not regulated with the others: it receives a straight and constant dose from the "plenum" of the fuel distributor. This means that it will not add fuel proportionally to your need. This is probably OK, as the flow isn't too significant, and it is not likely to overfuel the system.
The CPR/warm-up regulator is definitely necessary. It adjusts control pressure, or the hydraulic counterforce acting on the plunger. You'll want to pick up a turbo CPR, as it will drop control pressure under boost, which means more plate deflection for a given air flow, which means more fuel for a given air flow.


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## Turbopackman (Jun 28, 2009)

*Re: (Longitudinal)*

What would be a good WUR to use with this setup? I've read about Audi turbo WUR's and Volvo turbo WUR's but of course don't know enough about them to pick one to use on this. Or does it really matter? I don't know if one happens to flow more fuel than the other one, etc. (I'm thinking it doesn't matter, as long as it has a nipple for the boost reference)


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: (Turbopackman)*

That looks like a CIS-E fuel distributor. If that's the case then a WUR is not used in that system. Looks like a DPR on the side of the FD.


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## ShaggysGTI (May 15, 2009)

*Re: (EuroKid83)*

I may be wrong, but I second that motion. That looks like a differential pressure regulator on one side, and a plate potentiometer on the other.


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## Turbopackman (Jun 28, 2009)

*Re: (ShaggysGTI)*

It's a CIS-E, it's from a 1986 Merc. Therefore, since it doesn't have a WUR, I'm assuming that the DPR opens depending on voltage to it? IE, more voltage, more opening? If that's the case, then all I need to know is the voltage range and I can have it operated off of a boost switch. Also, that is a plate potentiometer on the other side. I'm trying to limit the computer controls to zero, if I can.


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## ShaggysGTI (May 15, 2009)

Well I don't think the plate potentiometer would be needed for your use, but maybe something can be made to just keep fuel a constant rate through the dpr?


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## Turbopackman (Jun 28, 2009)

*Re: (ShaggysGTI)*

That's what I'm wondering. If not, then I guess I'm going to have to find an earlier version than the CIS-E. I would assume that the DPR is variable, and if so then it is most likely done by varying the voltage. If so, then my life is a little easier.


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

*Re: (Turbopackman)*

I think you are spinning your wheels, wasting money buying incorrect parts. That DPR works on current, not voltage: you are not going to make it run right by simply attaching a potentiometer to it. Go get a pair of matching vanilla CIS fuel distributors from early Rabbits, BMW 3 series, or Saabs. Add to them a matching pair of boost referenced WURs from Volvo, Audi and voila you have an easy 300hp setup with boost enrichment. Have one distributor feed the even cylinders, one the odd. Have both CIS units feed a common TB and intake manifold. Everything is even, everything is balanced. Oh and much cheaper than the $500 you paid for that Benz part.


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## Turbopackman (Jun 28, 2009)

*Re: (antichristonwheels)*

I paid $60 for the Benz part, including the injectors. So I'm not too worried about it.


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## Turbopackman (Jun 28, 2009)

*Re: (Turbopackman)*

The idea here is that if the DPR turns on with voltage, then use a boost pressure switch to turn it on more as boost comes on. I need to know if it's a simple on/off type of regulator, or if it varies with voltage, which I'm assuming it does. No potentiometer needed.


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

*Re: (Turbopackman)*

Your idea/assumption is incorrect. The DPR needs to be fed a constant current to run at all. The current fed by the ECU varies based upon feedback from the O2 sensor. It requires a current amp and some closed loop feedback system with an O2 sensor


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## Turbopackman (Jun 28, 2009)

*Re: (antichristonwheels)*

Ok, so is it open (meaning flowing fuel) when there's no power to it, or is it closed?


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## turbinepowered (Mar 19, 2007)

*Re: (Turbopackman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Turbopackman* »_Ok, so is it open (meaning flowing fuel) when there's no power to it, or is it closed?

The DPR isn't an open/closed valve, it varies with the current applied to it. Normal idle current for a properly functioning system is centered around 10 mA, 
Honestly, with as little wiring as CIS-e requires, it'd almost be worth it for you to bite the bullet and put the whole thing in. One small computer box, an O2 sensor, coolant temp sensor, and two connectors on the fuel distributor (DPR and the potentiometer).


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## Turbopackman (Jun 28, 2009)

*Re: (turbinepowered)*

Ok, if I need to it would be easy to hide the ECM under the dash. Doesn't sound too hard, I figured there would be more to it than that. Is the harness more or less a standalone piece? Or does it have a bunch of wires for other sensors/actuators/etc on it?


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## turbinepowered (Mar 19, 2007)

*Re: (Turbopackman)*

I'm not sure about the MB unit, but the VW systems I'm familiar with essentially have the O2 sensor, the CTS, and that potentiometer thing on the side of the lift plate housing as their only sensors.
There is also the connection for the DPR and a wire listed as going to the idle stabilizer control unit; Other than that, I'm not seeing any other wires on a VW unit.


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## Turbopackman (Jun 28, 2009)

*Re: (turbinepowered)*

As far as connections on the CIS unit itself, there is only two, the potentiometer and the DPR. I see no other electrical connections. It looks like I need to be looking for a complete car to rob all the stuff off of.


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## turbinepowered (Mar 19, 2007)

*Re: (Turbopackman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Turbopackman* »_As far as connections on the CIS unit itself, there is only two, the potentiometer and the DPR. I see no other electrical connections. It looks like I need to be looking for a complete car to rob all the stuff off of. 

That sounds correct, should only be the two connections on the metering plate housing and fuel distributor.
You need a brain box (ECU), the plug, and enough of the wiring harness for your purposes.
Assuming the DPR connectors are compatible, you might be able to use a VW CIS computer and harness, and sensors.


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## Turbopackman (Jun 28, 2009)

*Re: (turbinepowered)*

There's only two male connections on the DPR, one is marked 1, the other 2. The potentiometer has 3 male connections.


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## turbinepowered (Mar 19, 2007)

*Re: (Turbopackman)*

Hmmm... you made me go dig out my MB four-can downdraft and compare it to the CIS-e unit that came out of my Fox.
The plugs aren't comparable, but they probably swap if you wanna use VW parts.


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