# Mk1/4000 Quattro hybrid



## pdx-gti (Jan 13, 2010)

Has anyone heard of someone completing this swap? I have searched all over this forum with no positive results. only one post from 06. http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...wap-into-mk1&highlight=audi+4000+swap+quattro


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## pdx-gti (Jan 13, 2010)

bump.
anyone have any info on what motors are possible with the audi quattro setup?


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## polov8 (Apr 14, 2004)

Pretty much any VAG motor you want can be fitted to a quattro drivetrain with the right parts, but putting that system into a mk1 is a massive undertaking, and will basically involve cutting the whole floor out of your mk1, and fitting the Audi floor, modifying the lengths of various driveshafts, changing the strut mountings on the shell, and then working out how to massacre the front of the car to get any engine in. 

It's another case of "if you have to ask, this isn't for you"

Bettter to find an Audi TT drivetrain as this will more readily fit into a mk1 shell, though by fit, I mean, won't fit by a smaller margin!


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## LuvToHate (Aug 10, 2005)

The best place to start is with a tape measure, the entire Audi engine sits about 5" forward of the centre line of the front tires. Measure the length of your current motor and then measure from about 5" forward of the centre line of the front tires to where your motor would end and this is the problem. The front of the motor will be pushing the grill forward so you will also need to redesign the entire cooling system, engine mounting, and so on which means it is a lot of work to get this configuration to work.


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## 35i 2000 (Jan 27, 2005)

whats the swap exactly? a 2.2L 20v turbo?

aren't these 5 cyl a little too long to run transverse....


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## Richard_Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

not alot of correct answers here so far IMHO.

OP is not talking transverse. he is talking Quattro, which is longitudinal.

and no, not all VAG motors will work with all Quattro drivetrains. OP needs to focus on 01A/01E trans for any 4/5/6/8 cyl Quattro. the 016 does not work with 4cyl, etc.

i have both a MK1 and a few Audi Coupe Quattro's..... i was going to put a full spare drivetrain from one of my CQ's into my MK1.... and it will work with a bit of work.

the tops of the strut towers are within 1/4" of each other. i put a 4cyl in my drag coupe. the front of the motor in relation to the centerline of the struts is within 1/4" car to car. the radiator will need relocating though on the MK1. you may need to tube the front like i did on my CQ drag car.... 

but there are bigger issues. the steering for example. the steering rack in a MK1 is low, and the trans would need to run right thru it. you would have to adapt a Fox rack to the car. it works above the trans. and then you'd need to use the Audi front strut housings, the steering mounts on them are up on the strut tubes.

no you wont have to cut out the whole floor. but you will need to mod the tunnel.

you will need custom driveshaft though i think.

here is what a Quattro drivetrain looks like outside of the car. it was only 17 bolts to drop this, IIRC. 

and also, some of the type of work you may need to do concerning front clearances, too. i built these cars in my garage at home by myself, and i KNOW WITH 100% CERTAINTY I COULD PUT THIS QUATTRO SETUP IN MY MK1 GTI.




























its been done in a MK2, its been done in a MK1.

look up the Dubweiser golf.... or look at this MK2 by Gnutz.

http://www.s2forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19402


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## LuvToHate (Aug 10, 2005)

> i KNOW WITH 100% CERTAINTY I COULD PUT THIS QUATTRO SETUP IN MY MK1 GTI.


Really? What about the fact that the 4 cylinders crank pulley would rub on the back of the front bumper? If you have seen people do this swap you will also note that most of them go to tube frames to make this fit such as the A2 you had mentioned above. To make this fit in any A1 or A2 for that matter is a huge undertaking and it is not just a bracket here and a different part there. I have never done this myself but I do have a tape measure and there is little between the two cars that line up and you have to move/fab a lot to make it work. All of the threads I have seen were not simple and the amount of work that it took was hardly worth the effort. For the amount of work it would take I can't even see the point in doing it other than superior Audi AWD system you would get. 

I am sure 'you' could put the Audi driveline in A1 chassis car but you obviously have some skill because this is beyond most people which is why they ask in forums like this. I still don't see the point when you could do the same in the Quattro Coupe you have hidden away in your garage which is a far superior car in every way which was developed through road, track, and rally racing. Put a 20V turbo I5 in there with minimal mods you are over 400 hp and with a real AWD system you would be set. I really like those Audi coupes (even more than the ur-Quattro), I am envious of your car so treat it well because there are less and less of those on the road each day and it is still an amazing car today.


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## Richard_Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

LuvToHate said:


> Really? *yes really.*
> What about the fact that the 4 cylinders crank pulley would rub on the back of the front bumper? *take a look at what i do for fun in my off-time at home... i built a 9 second AWD drag car BY MYSELF at home, with no directions. i said I could do it. and i stand by that.*
> If you have seen people do this swap you will also note that most of them go to tube frames to make this fit such as the A2 you had mentioned above. *hmmm. tube framing the front. yeah, i did that to fit that turbo i run. and that is why i pointed to Gnutz build thread. there are 40 more threads i could point you to about AWD in a FWD car... and other types of builds.*
> To make this fit in any A1 or A2 for that matter is a huge undertaking and it is not just a bracket here and a different part there. * :laugh: please notice, i took a 5cyl out of that CQ and put a 4 cyl in its place. that 4cyl makes >600 AWHP... i know its not just a couple little parts. i hand crafted all of my own mounts, moved the trans, did a different trans, used many OEM parts and made what i could not find.*
> ...


if you want to see what it takes to make THE FASTEST AUDI COUPE QUATTRO IN THE WORLD, here is my my full build thread. and what i have gone thru to make it a 9 second car as well. it is not simple, it was not without issues. but it is what it is, and it was all time well spent.

and i am not saying its possible for everyone to do, just that it can be done and that alot of misinformation was being put into this guys thread. it is by far not simple and easy, like a couple brackets, etc. but the challenge is what makes it fun for people like me.

vwhammer1 is doing an Audi V8 with Quattro in a MK1 rabbit body. tube-framed completely. its possible, with certain amounts of skill anything can be done.



some more pix for the masses, because i have been accused of being a pic whore. 

LONG AND SHORT OF IT; you can do anything you put your mind to, if you possess enough desire to do so.


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## Richard_Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

and i would link to my friends thread, but he quit posting on VWKotex cuz its ghey to him anymore. probably cuz i rode his ass so much in that thread concerning his timeframe. he said he could do it completely in 30 days.... LOL and i know he can do it, but just not in 30 days.

but he did a full A4 drivetrain, including all suspension, Quattro, longitudinally mounted, in his Rado. same type thing as here. but he cut out the rear of the car and grafted it into the Rado shell. he was going to do the same from the firewall forward but i think he left the firewall. he did this with the multi-piece front and rear suspensions, too.

he just got done turning a Fiero into a Lambo.... he does that cuz he likes it. he builds his own headlights, and other off the wall custom stuff.


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## MikkiJayne (Jan 1, 2007)

I wish you hadn't ragged on him so much  I was looking forward to seeing how that car turned out.

*
*


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## Richard_Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

MikkiJayne said:


> I wish you hadn't ragged on him so much  I was looking forward to seeing how that car turned out.
> 
> *
> *


hahaha. if it is ever to be completed, i will have to go finish it. but i have my own projects to do  he can do the fab portion of it, he just has no clue whatsoever when it comes to the electrical and such. and i tell him at the onset of ALL projects he does, that i DO NOT WANT TO BE INVOLVED WITH THEM whatsoever.... but he never listens. oh well.

it has all the running gear in and done, BTW. he still cant figure out how to get the balls back into his rear axles. i showed him multiple times and he still cant get it. i showed him where he can get a pair of axles for $40, he was too lazy to drive over and get them. its his problem.

but for him, i am his devils advocate.... as stated many times, numbers and him do not mix, like peanut butter and pickles. dont matter if its time, money, days, it all does not jive for some reason. 

he actually should be bringing it home this week or so.... then if i had time (HAHAHA) i could go to his house as its ~ten minutes. where his car is at his dads shop is an hour. and there is no way i am driving an hour each way to work on his car after driving an hour each way for my job. call me crazy, but it is what it is. i work to the north, his car is to the south.

dunno, but it isnt up to me to finish it.


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## LuvToHate (Aug 10, 2005)

Richard_Cranium, thanks for the incite, there are people like yourself who can obviously do and there are people who ask and there is a world of difference between the two. You can obliviously make the Audi driveline fit in the VW chassis but it is a lot of work and most of the people who read on these forums are not able to do this kind of fabrication. I always suggest a tape measure when this question is asked, if you can get around fitting the motor then you have a good chance of making it work. 

That's too bad the other person that was making a Corrado Quattro got all touchy and stopped posting, I would have liked to have seen how that one ended up. The Corrado has a longer nose than the A1/A2 and would probably make a good project car for this kind of swap. In the end there are those that do and those that ask, most ask people never make it much beyond asking.

That's a nice collection of cars you have, you are certainly one of the 'do' people as shown by the skill presented in your projects. It is nice to see people with skills like yourself, the touchy guy with the Corrado Quattro, and MikkiJayne with her V8 Corrado that post here because it really gives motivation and ideas to other people.


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## Richard_Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

thank you.... i feel like i barely get by with what i do for fun 

i have a few other cars not listed nor mentioned, too. like a Corvette TPI motored 4x4 i swapped. and a Vortech SC'd VR6 MK3 that i bought from a friend, i didnt build it.

my point is that many many many hours are spent by me reading and reading about this stuff. VWVortex is not the only forum site in the world. over in europe they do alot more to these cars....

but i didnt just "do it". i had to learn like anyone else. and learning has a curve. i "learned" on my drag rabbit. that made the drag Coupe go together much easier and with less "do-overs". the next iteration for the rabbit will be even easier yet. mid-engine, RWD, 4cyl, Dodge 3 spd auto trans. tube frame the back half and from the struts forward.

i have hundreds and hundreds of pictures stored on my computer, from cage designs and ideas, to rear motors, to longitudinal front motor rwd, to awd swaps. and when i want to see what some of the solutions were that a person did, i look at those pix.... ADHD helps, too 

but in the end, its really a few questions that need answered.

A: can it be done? YES it can by a skilled person who can fab and weld and measure and think.

B: will it be easy? HELL NO, it wont be easy by any means.

C: will it be worth it? that depends on your value of worth. a person owns their own time, and how they spend it is up to them. if i am sitting at home drinking a beer and looking at the grass grow, my time is worth zero to me. but if i am researching something i want to do later on, then it is being spent in a productive manner. if i am actually implementing something i saw, then it is of even more value. and in the long run, its worth is measured by how much fun you had doing it, and if the end results are satisfactory to you.

i wont lie, i have wanted to quit my drag Coupe many times.... but i just step back, take a breather, and then rethink whatever it was. hell i took last winter off after blowing up $10k in two motors on the dyno and never got to run it on the track. what did i learn? 45psi by 5700 rpm is too much too fast. thats what i learned. and quite expensive a lesson i might add LOL.

when i stress out with these cars and it becomes no fun, i take a break. a person is not supposed to stress so much in the doing of a hobby. hobbies are for relieving stresses, not creating more/different ones.

but to be honest, i think a Quattro MK1 rabbit would be fun as hell.... my thought was when i looked into it was to make it a hill climb type car, or a roadcourse car. maybe even GTS-5 or GTS-u class race it. the levels of safety gear for those series is higher than my normal NHRA stuff though. and then there is brakes, and REAL suspension, and alot of other stuff to contend with. plus the only time i would really get to run it is like if i tagged along with various car clubs and joined their track rentals....

so i stick with drag racing, go straight and fast and quick. 



sorry for the long winded rant, just got a lil carried away there in the defense of my statement. 

it can be done, it wont be easy, it would have a great end result if finished properly, and not many people can pull it off. and when i said i could do it, i would use the 4cyl that i have so much experience with.

look at vwhammer1 build. his is RWD front engine, but you get the point of how deep and how fast you can get into something like this.


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## polov8 (Apr 14, 2004)

So what it all boils down to is what I wrote in the third post. Yes it can be done, but no, it's not easy.


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## LuvToHate (Aug 10, 2005)

polov8 said:


> So what it all boils down to is what I wrote in the third post. Yes it can be done, but no, it's not easy.


Don't forget cheap, that is also very important. You either pay someone to do radical swaps like some of the ones touched on in this thread which would cost so much much that you would have to be loaded or you have to do it yourself. There are some people who are happy to just buy things and personalize their car this way and then there are those that will push things to the extreme and modify everything. Just looking at that bell-housing gives me goosebumps.....










Fabrication down to that level is amazing really, just being able to think of the idea takes skills that most people will never have. You also need the tools and either the knowledge on them or the ability to learn in some form. I'm doing a a more subtle swap but before I started it I had never really welded and started by welding a few scraps together using the settings on the inside lid of the welder and then moved over to the car and just kept on going. My welds may not look the best all of the time but they do have penetration and the big welds were done on the top and the bottom to give extra strength. Seeing a lot of these different projects really gives people an idea of what it is involved and how people do things that can't be bought a store.

One thing that always holds me back is safety and strength. How do you know if that cage you built will really protect you? Are you sure that the modifications you made will support the steering or engine or will it fail under load? Is the placement of that fuel cell safe or will it pop in an accident? Seeing the work other people have done just amazes me because most of the people do it for fun and not for work. I've always loved the second generation Audi coupe and I wanted an AWD car so had a buddy look for an S2 coupe but in the area of Germany where they were looking they couldn't find anything suitable. I didn't want to risk getting burned on a deal I decided to buy a Jetta coupe and a Syncro and then make one car out of the two. A Syncro is a poor substitute for a Quattro but it is an easy project in the scheme of things so this is what I did.... http://www.corrado-club.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12368&start=0


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## Richard_Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

and what you are doing over there on CCC is very much on par with "not alot of people can do". we do not have easy access to Syncro setups down here, they are much more plentiful up there.


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

If you're as smart as you appear, stay away from the dodge/VW auto. Adapt the conventional Dodge auto, and save yourself the hassle. The A404 can be built up, but they're so uncommon that any 'accident' can have you waiting for a new box . I traded an A404 to Marc from Autoxtrem (North America's fastest FWD VW  ), he built it up, the case got dropped and cracked badly. He had to wait a month for a replacement box to materialize. Then he kept breaking it IIRC, so he dumped it.

The VW 010 is capable of the power, that's what the 9sec PR drag Golf runs, even though they're tight with the info . Look up www.transaxleengineering.com, they put the 010 behind LS1s in sand rails .


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## Richard_Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

B4S said:


> If you're as smart as you appear, stay away from the dodge/VW auto. Adapt the conventional Dodge auto, and save yourself the hassle. The A404 can be built up, but they're so uncommon that any 'accident' can have you waiting for a new box . I traded an A404 to Marc from Autoxtrem (North America's fastest FWD VW  ), he built it up, the case got dropped and cracked badly. He had to wait a month for a replacement box to materialize. Then he kept breaking it IIRC, so he dumped it.
> 
> The VW 010 is capable of the power, that's what the 9sec PR drag Golf runs, even though they're tight with the info . Look up www.transaxleengineering.com, they put the 010 behind LS1s in sand rails .


it is the same setup, from Marc thru different hands.... i have spoken with Marc about it a few times, know the issues he was having, etc.

and Marc is the Second Fastest FWD VW (as Joel has been 8.9x seconds a few times now) FWIW....

but thanks for the heads up.... that info just makes it that much more of a challenge, and i dont mind those too much. :laugh:


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## B4S (Apr 16, 2003)

That's funny, it started out as my transmission .

Fingers crossed it goes better for you dude, it'd be nice to see it work out. I have to live vicariously through Marc, I used to race him back in the day when a 15 sec boosted VW was fast :laugh:. I gave it up because I couldn't compete with myself anymore .


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## LuvToHate (Aug 10, 2005)

Here's another really nice build, I'm not into the mid-engine thing but there is a lot of hard work in this project... http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4291629-Build-RWD-Jetta-PIC-HEAVY


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## LuvToHate (Aug 10, 2005)

Two quick questions if you please.... 

1) If one were to buy a Audi 4000 Quattro such as a 1987 Audi 4000 Quattro with the non-turbo 5 cylinder motor, will the transmission work with the Volkswagen 4 cylinder such as a 2.0 16V or will a different transmission be needed such as those used on the A4 B5 Platform? 

2) What is the distance from the centre of the front cv flange to the front lip of the bell housing for some rough measurements on the early Quattro transmission? 

I know of a 1987 4000 Quattro that is partially stripped with a complete driveline and was thinking.....


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## Richard_Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

LuvToHate said:


> Two quick questions if you please....
> 
> 1) If one were to buy a Audi 4000 Quattro such as a 1987 Audi 4000 Quattro with the non-turbo 5 cylinder motor, will the transmission work with the Volkswagen 4 cylinder such as a 2.0 16V or will a different transmission be needed such as those used on the A4 B5 Platform?
> 
> ...


 
*1: the 4kQ would have had an 016 trans with a manually lockable center diff and 4.11 R&P, and will not work with 4cyl. you would need the 01A trans from 80/90/CQ or 01E from B5 S4 or any other 6 spd trans, or the 01E 5 spd from UrS4/6. the B5 A4 has 01A trans with 3.89 R&P where the older stuff (80/90/CQ) has 4.11. including the 4kQ.* 

*2: i dont have that info for the 016 but i will give you 01A measurements. it is 7.125" roughly  * 

one thing we do is use the 4kQ driveline for an 01E swap into the 80/90/CQ body. the 01E trans is ~1" longer than the 01A, and the 4kQ driveline is the same ~1" shorter than our stock driveline. FWIW.


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## LuvToHate (Aug 10, 2005)

That's good to know so if you do use a 4000 as a swap car you can't use a VW motor in the swap unless you get a different transmission. In Canada we have a limited market so VW/Audi only imported the B3 Audi 90 with a 5 cylinder when it was a Quattro and a 2.0 - 4 cylinder when it was FWD. I think the States you could get the Audi 80 with Quattro and a 4 cylinder but if they sold it in Canada it would be special order. Although the Audi 5 cylinder is an amazing motor it would be much easier to use a 4 cylinder if you are going to try this on a A1/A2 Golf/Rabbit/Jetta. Around here you see the B3/B4 Audi 90 Quattro for about $1,000 to $2,000 and if can be used as a complete swap but allowing you to use a shorter motor the swap would be a little easier and you would have a bit more room. The Audi 90 Coupes are currently going around $4,000 so they are holding their value a little better but I would say you would be better off with the coupe that a swapped car if you had to choose. 

What about the C3/C4 Audi cars, do you know what transmission they would use? Some of these are really cheap and if you could use the suspension and driveline without the motor it would make for a cheap swap. You don't see many B5 cars for real cheap unless they are write-off cars and you don't always know what you get with these.


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## Richard_Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

what i know of the C4 cars is the UrS4.... AKA 100. and it is a 5 spd 01E. 

the 01E trans works for 4, 5, 6, and 8 cyl motors..... and is 4.11 R&P unless it came from an Allroad which has 4.35 R&P.


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