# 300 wheel hp supercharged vr6



## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

*300 wheel hp supercharged vr6 ( now 325hp turbocharged vr6), (now 400hp turbocharged vr6)... god i hate this site haha*











That's the goal at least. I just picked the car up it has 137k so I want to pull the motor do the rings timing chain and all the preventative maintenance I can while its out. I'm looking into all the things I want to include in this build but it seems like the vr is a whole other monster compared to the 1.8t's ive owned in the past. It seems like stock cams are popular with forced induction which was very surprising to me. The main reason for this post is what are some good supporting mods (including clutch) to go with a supercharger kit (leaning towards vf) to give it some extra power and to keep it running optimal....

*EDIT* 

^^ That was the original goal now after some research these are my new thoughts:


Just picked this up a little over a week ago its not the prettiest thing as of right now (great paint :what but I got it for a great deal and bought it with intentions of making it into a nice long term project. As of now it is a daily driver and will remain a daily driver for the next year. Next summer/fall I plan on buying a small pickup for a daily and I wanna do a small turbo project and build it up to about 325hp. I plan on building something with very little lag and a nice consistent hp/tq curve. That being said the car already is just shy of 140k and I plan on pulling the motor the weekend after halloween. I am going to do the chains, clutch, the cooling system, and possibly a few other things while I'm in there. I am looking for some suggestions for what else I should get while I'm already in there so that the car is more enjoyable as a daily driver and than when I add boost it will be even better. Here are the main questions I have.

1. Should I get cams? Which cams would work well both naturally aspirated and with forced induction.

2. Schimmel Performance is about a mile from my house and I was thinking of having him do my head while I had it out. Should I just have the head redone? Also get springs and lifters?

3. Is a stock sachs clutch and a lightweight flywheel a good clutch for my situation or what would be a better fit for a similar price?

*EDIT* 10/11/11
Pretty much got my plans laid out on paper now I need to find my longblock. I'm searching regularly and I'm hoping to get lucky and show and go Sunday :thumbup: keep checking back I'll update with progress and questions! :beer:

Thanks for the help!! :beer::beer:


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

tdmopar59 said:


> The main reason for this post is what are some good supporting mods (including clutch) to go with a supercharger kit (leaning towards vf) to give it some extra power and to keep it running optimal....


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...rged-reference-thread*-specs-setups-et-cetera

:thumbup:


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

Thanks a ton!! Most of my searches were failing me idk y this didn't POP up. Thanks again!


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Not a problem... *most *topics related to super/turbo charging, fuelling and tuning are all covered in either the FI and/or 2.8 vr technical forums. There is a ton of info there if you weed through it. :thumbup:


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## mk4vrjtta (Feb 3, 2007)

GL :thumbup:


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## KeyDub (Jul 11, 2004)

1 Word:

CorradoMagic:thumbup:


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## mk4vrjtta (Feb 3, 2007)

KeyDub said:


> 1 Word:
> 
> CorradoMagic:thumbup:


yea...he's cute... :screwy:


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

before you spend money with VF, you should do a search for how they support their VW kit (terribly). If you want a 300hp VR, you'll be much happier in the long run with a turbo kit from CTS.

:beer:


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

A lot of people around here love the turbo setups over supercharger. I like the consistent power throughout and reliability thats why I was thinking supercharger.


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## mk4vrjtta (Feb 3, 2007)

tdmopar59 said:


> A lot of people around here love the turbo setups over supercharger. I like the consistent power throughout and reliability thats why I was thinking supercharger.[/QUOTE
> 
> the kinetics kit is probably more reliable than vf kit becauce of the v9.


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

tdmopar59 said:


> A lot of people around here love the turbo setups over supercharger. I like the consistent power throughout and reliability thats why I was thinking supercharger.


turbo setup will make more low end TQ than the centrifugal charger you're considering (which will only make peak boost at redline). turbo will also be more reliable (no belt slip, or maf problems like the VF kits)

:beer:


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## passatvr607 (Nov 11, 2007)

you will want more boost. almost every one in the fi forms have gone super charged and its not enough.. it was fun but you can only go 15 pounds on a charger and in the long run the charger will cost more do to cog set up and such . if you are turbo more boost is only a button away with in reason .


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

+1
p1sc to gt4094r
don't be afraid of the choke line :beer:


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

well IF i went turbo I would want a steady bull very little lag but at the same time I don't wanna be spinning and all too much. I would still want to make around 325hp nothing rediculous. 

http://store.forcedperformance.net/...oduct_Code=NTGT3582HTA&Category_Code=Turbo-FP

always have been a fan of forced performance.... Any thoughts on what kind of spool characteristics and drivability this turbo would provide? I feel like it would spool early but not too early and be able to rip when need be. But at the same time would this spool too fast for a daily driver?


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## mk4vrjtta (Feb 3, 2007)

that def wont spool "early"


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

you could get better performance out of a smaller non BB turbo (i.e. half the price). thats a great 500hp turbo, but at 300+ hp, you'll be way out of its efficiency range (it really doesnt come alive until 15+psi on a VR).

:beer:


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## Capt.Dreadz (Jun 4, 2003)

I wonder if they make a VR bracket for this...








300hp would be no problem then 

In all seriousness, you're just gonna waste money cause in the end, it's not gonna be enough & you're gonna end up wanting to go turbo. With a SC, there's only a small window of upgrades. The more boost you want, the smaller the pulley needed which shortens the life of the charger.


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

TBT-Syncro said:


> you could get better performance out of a smaller non BB turbo (i.e. half the price). thats a great 500hp turbo, but at 300+ hp, you'll be way out of its efficiency range (it really doesnt come alive until 15+psi on a VR).
> 
> :beer:


Yeah the turbo has plenty of capability what turbo's do you reccomend looking into? I'm doing cams head and all that the weekend after Halloween than doing some other little things than fi next summer. I like looking at dynos to try and guide my decision. The only thing that scares me about journal bearing is I won't it to start spooling at low rpm


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

billet wheels has been available for a while now and ballbearings vs journal bearing has only few hundred rpms difference in spool times... control your spool/full boost with the right exhaust housing... no need for bigger cams for 325whp... stock cams, stock head, a headspacer with the stock block will be good enough... 

5857 precision turbo (600hp rated turbo) with an E cover (for using stock vr6 intake manifold and a kinetic exhaust manifold) or the S cover but needs SRI manifold and a .68 exhaust housing is good for the street and some track. add 42# software or Lugtronics standalone if you want the best(my opinion)... 12-15 psi and your car will be a fun car to drive... then you get addicted to boost so you up it to 20-25psi and your car will be beast... but then your trans will hate you lol 

goodluck :thumbup::beer:


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

PjS860ct said:


> with an E cover (for using stock vr6 intake manifold and a kinetic exhaust manifold) *or the S cover but needs SRI manifold *.


No Sir.


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

PTE 6262 with the S cover and stock upper intake here... a tight fit, but it fits.


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

I run S-covers on that stock intake manifold all the time. 

The following will fit no problem:
Garrett
Precision
Master Power
Turbonetic


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> No Sir.


 Yes you are right and i know the S cover fits with the kinetic exhaust manifold n stock intake manifold. I just prefer the e cover as why bother with a nice big cover since its gonna be hidden under the manifold, throttle body n pipings etc... and also for easy fitment ill go with the e cover particularly when using the stock intake manifold... :thumbup:


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

I think I already decided I'm going turbo :facepalm: I was really thinking about supercharger but with a power goal of 325 and the amount of options in the turbo world it kinda just makes more sense I am confident I can build exactly what I'm looking for with some research and the right setup. I am working on step 1 of this build the first weekend in November with some maintenance and freshening up I have a thread in the 12 valve forum looking for som more suggestions. Thanks for the help fellas! :beer:


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

I edited the original post and title so I could ask my new set of questions without making a new thread.... :beer:


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

Capt.Dreadz said:


> I wonder if they make a VR bracket for this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're obviously joking, but a VR6 could never even make enough power to spin that.... the F3 requires 500-800 base horsepower and the F4 requires 900-1400, not sure which you pictured as they're both massive.  

OP - don't do a lightweight flywheel. Stock clutch will be fine, but you might want to consider upgrading if you're going to be there. For 325 whp, don't bother with the head or cams. Get a Kinetic kit, 3" exhaust, and a Walbro, then turn the boost up until you hit your number. You'll hit your goal easily.


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

I was going to have this done
http://www.spturbo.com/onlinestore/...er-head-valvetrain/vr6-12v-cylinder-head.html

I figured it might help it breathe a little better have a nicer low end. Main reason I was thinking about cams was for the year I'm going to drive it naturally aspirated... As long as they will have some benefit down the road as well... I don't want to buy them if they're only good for a year for me. I'm just now beginning my research on which turbo to go with... I'm not much of a kit person there are too many choices out there. What would you reccomend upgrading to? And any reason for the no on lightweight flywheel? Only downside i've came across so far was some extra noise...


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

Cams would be a good choice if you're looking to go all out. For a very mild build as you're describing, there is no need. If you want to rebuild the head, then go for it, but the same applies - unless you're really looking to push the envelope, your money is better spent elsewhere.


You would be best off with the Kinetic kit. It's a great kit with everything you'll need to do exactly what you want. With that turbo, you will easily hit your goal of 325, and also have great down-low power.

Lightweight flywheel is up to you, but for a turbo car, you really want to keep everything moving as much as you can during shifts. Not that big of a concern with the Kinetic 60 trim since it spools very quickly, but again, your money is better spent elsewhere. 

If I were you, I'd leave the head alone, and rebuild the bottom end. Hone, bearings, rings, ARP bolts, gaskets, chains, etc. Spend your money there so you don't wind up burning a quart of oil a week down the road.


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

djsheijkdfj said:


> Cams would be a good choice if you're looking to go all out. For a very mild build as you're describing, there is no need. If you want to rebuild the head, then go for it, but the same applies - unless you're really looking to push the envelope, your money is better spent elsewhere.
> 
> 
> You would be best off with the Kinetic kit. It's a great kit with everything you'll need to do exactly what you want. With that turbo, you will easily hit your goal of 325, and also have great down-low power.
> ...



Thanks! I will look into some bottom end work. How quick does it spool? I'm coming from the 1.8t world and I simply hate lag Haha. I have been looking at turbo's a lot recently there is just an overwhelming amount of options. I was thinking a turbo that makes 325 around 12psi and can be cranked up here and there. It's funny how the goal changes originally it was just a modest 300hp supercharged build lol. I was starting to consider a gt3076r... Thoughts?


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

The 60 trim will start to spool almost instantly above 2,000 RPM. You will hit 325 with it at around 12-14 psi, depending on the rest of your setup. You'll be good for 400 hp with it as well. 

If you're dead set on not buying a kit for whatever reason (It really is your best option).... go to a GT35 or 6262 with a .63 T3 hotside on either... no sense in wasting your time on anything smaller for the amount of money a good turbo costs.


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

The 60 trim kit sounds better than I originally thought it would be. I think thats what I might run (initially at least lol). I'm looking into my options as far as getting the motor ready.


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

I've been looking around online for bottom end parts. I was going to do oem bearings, possibly the performance rings from German auto parts unless oem is better, mk4 head gasket kit? Input? What benefits if any would I see if I did have my head done. And the other question is are there any cams that work well both with forced induction and naturally aspirated applications? I don't wanna be bored while I save for boost Haha. Thanks for the help! There is so much info out there I feel like I've been studying for a final the past couple days with all the reading I've been doing on here Haha


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

djsheijkdfj said:


> go to a GT35 or 6262 with a .63 T3 hotside on either... no sense in wasting your time on anything smaller for the amount of money a good turbo costs.


Agreed, GT30 on a VR is a joke.


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

tdmopar59 said:


> [1. Should I get cams? Which cams would work well both naturally aspirated and with forced induction.
> 
> 2. Schimmel Performance is about a mile from my house and I was thinking of having him do my head while I had it out. Should I just have the head redone? Also get springs and lifters?
> 
> ...


As for the rest...i agree with pretty much all of the above posts....and 325whp is 8v power....lol
Just kiddding....at that power level the engine wont even be working hard
Read everything you can...learn from others...buy your parts carefully and have fun


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

tdmopar59 said:


> I was going to do oem bearings, possibly the performance rings from German auto parts unless oem is better, *mk4 head gasket kit?* Input?


I would not recommend this at all, especially since you are going to use a chip tune. If anything I'd be considering a *headspacer* not a MK4 headgasket which will increase compression.

For 300hp having the head modded is a waste of time and money. If you have money to burn I will provide you my Paypal address and you can make a sizeable deposit just for shyttss and giggles.

262's are the popular cam choice for moderate power goals due to their price (also works well both NA & FI).


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

Okay the head gasket situation has had me a little confused. So a head spacer lowers compression the mk4 must raise it than... Should I just get a stock one since I'm not going huge power and it will be n/a for a while or get a spacer? 262's do seem decent for the money and should make the next year more fun but I'm starting to think I might turbo and than modify later if need be ( and by need I mean want Haha )


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

tdmopar59 said:


> Okay the head gasket situation has had me a little confused. So a head spacer lowers compression the mk4 must raise it than... Should I just get a stock one since I'm not going huge power and it will be n/a for a while or get a spacer?


That question is going to open a whole can of worms. I suggest you search carefully about the different compression ratios currently available. You are going to get varying responses on what compression ratio to run but this is what I suggest.

1. Stay the **** away from Mk3 headgaskets as they are horrible (composite card-like material) and do not like boost very much. Especially if it is the original one (making it at least > 10yrs old). If you start getting too boost happy it will blow out on you. These gaskets can be used only if you are very timid with the boost and assuming that it is in decent condition to begin with (but how would you know this unless you removed it for inspection).

2. I would not recommend running a Mk4 headgasket if you intend to turbo your car, again especially because you are going to run a chip and not a customized stand alone system on race gas etc. You are playing with fire with that high compression, high intake temp, aggressive timing combination. Good luck!

3. A stainless steel headspacer by any of the "reputable" companies out there will lower your compression enough to keep you out of trouble when you start dialing up the boost. I am not even to suggest which one (brand nor compression level) for you to go with as that is very subjective.

4. If you _must _ (whatever that means)stay stock compression there are some companies that make stainless gaskets that maintain stock compression and don't have the vulnerability that your Mk3 OEM gasket has.


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

Looks like that's my next section to research. And as far as rings... If I wanna go more power in the future (nothing insane) do I still just need rings? What are people using oem or aftermarket?? Thanks for all the input its greatly appreciated


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

If the bottom end comes apart, you will need a hone & rings. Well..... you technically don't "need" them, but you'd be asking for trouble by assembling it back the way it came apart. I wouldn't recommend anything other than OEM rings.

I wouldn't recommend lower than 9:1 compression.... my car is at 9.5:1 and I'm @ 17 lbs on a 6262, no melted pistons thusfar....


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

djsheijkdfj said:


> If the bottom end comes apart, you will need a hone & rings. Well..... you technically don't "need" them, but you'd be asking for trouble by assembling it back the way it came apart. I wouldn't recommend anything other than OEM rings.
> 
> I wouldn't recommend lower than 9:1 compression.... my car is at 9.5:1 and I'm @ 17 lbs on a 6262, no melted pistons thusfar....


17psi on stock pistons with fresh rings? Thats awesome! Which rings? That's why my goal is about 12 psi at 325hp so I can turn it up get more boost and power when I wanna go wild


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

Not quite.... my bottom end was bored to 2.9 and I have Wiseco 9:1 pistons. I'm using the MKIV gasket so my final compression is somewhere between 9:1 and 9.5:1. I used the Wiseco rings since they are oversized and made for the pistons, but if you are using stock 81mm pistons, OEM rings are more than fine to use. 

I would more than likely still be using OEM pistons, but I bought my car blown up to rebuild it, and found some scoring in the cylinder walls so I was forced to bore it out. I would also still be using the Kinetic 60 trim turbo that came with the car, but I managed to trash it as well, and went ahead and upgraded to the 6262.... :facepalm:


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

I see. So stock pistons with fresh rings are fine to boost up to what Psi and HP ? I will have to organize all my research at the end of my research to help people out in the future.


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

There's a VR6 running bottom 10's and trapping 150 MPH on a bone stock bottom end... it's more than stout enough for what you want to do. :thumbup: I don't know the record for a stock bottom end VR, but I would guess somewhere in the 600-700hp neighborhood, maybe more.


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

djsheijkdfj said:


> There's a VR6 running bottom 10's and trapping 150 MPH on a bone stock bottom end... it's more than stout enough for what you want to do. :thumbup: I don't know the record for a stock bottom end VR, but I would guess somewhere in the 600-700hp neighborhood, maybe more.


Well that's 100% awesome Haha. Great news though saves me some $$$


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

I'm having a problem trying to see how the whole headspacer situation works out. I feel like 10:1 might limit my boost but a 9:1 would suck while naturally aspirated....


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

Don't go lower than 9:1 and you'll be fine. There will be little difference in driveability at that point. Once you get into the 8's and lower, then it starts to feel "mushy" off boost.


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

Here are the two kits I'm looking at... are the grant piston rings any good or should i stick with oem?

http://www.mjmautohaus.com/catalog/...without_Pistons_ARP_Hardware&products_id=2552

http://www.mjmautohaus.com/catalog/...nt_Piston_Rings_ARP_Hardware&products_id=3974


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## passatvr607 (Nov 11, 2007)

you need the mk4 head gasket for the head spacer. get your self a set of 268s and go with a #42 set up go with united motor sports software . doing all the work to the motor is a waste of time if it runs leave it alone you can do more harm than good. i would go with a t60 with a 60 or 83 exh side its up too you. get a good boost controller and a good wideband. and you can range form 250 hp to 450. with hitting aa few buttons. my buddy has a stock clutch on 22 pounds with no problems so far . so you can try the stocker till it goes and save up for a diff as well . i have a peliquin in mine but i want to get a wavtec


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

I think I'm just going to buy an engine and rebuild that one all the way up to a vrt while I drive my car as a daily and when the motor is ready to drop in I will swap them and sell my engine. I'm basically seeing it as a core charge :laugh:

as far as the turbo kit I believe I'm going with the kinetic kit.


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## passatvr607 (Nov 11, 2007)

make your own i put mine together for less than 2200 over the winter with all good a few used things but most new . and dont sell that motor i boosted 25 pounds on a vr6 with over 220 k on it and the bearing on the oil pump shaft went bad and wasted the motor  just run that one there is a kid tim with 700 hp to his and races it every week end .


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

ouch... I will have to look into piecing one together as that could be a nice way to save $$


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

no one with a suggestion on rings?? I'm assuming oem but wanted to see if people were running anything else with success or if the general consensus is that the oem rings are best for stock pistons...


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Either is fine, people have had sucess with both. I like sticking with the OEM rings but this is just preference and is not based on proof that one is superior to the other.


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> Either is fine, people have had sucess with both. I like sticking with the OEM rings but this is just preference and is not based on proof that one is superior to the other.


 Yeah I think I will go oem as it seems plenty of people run them with fi and I haven't seen many issues posted.


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## GinsterMan98 (May 19, 2008)

djsheijkdfj said:


> Don't go lower than 9:1 and you'll be fine. There will be little difference in driveability at that point. Once you get into the 8's and lower, then it starts to feel "mushy" off boost.


 Agreed, I ran my motor NA with 9:1 spacer and it was fine. SLight torque loss.


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

another quick question before i get a motor (hopefully sunday!). are there any vr6 longblocks I should avoid? (Besides OBD 1 obviously)


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

You can use any, no real reason to avoid OBD1 motors either. There aren't really any differences between OBD1/OBD2 as far as the engine itself is concerned.


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

yeah but if i'm buying a longblock I might as well re-use the head and cams on the block I purchase and I prefer to stick with the obd 2 setup


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## dasbeast3.0 (Aug 15, 2007)

If you are looking for 325whp, leave the motor alone. Do compression/leakdown tests, if its good, run with it. Your wasting time and $ rebuilding the motor. The vr is damn beefy right outta the box. 

Ive ran 26psi on a dead stock motor (8.5:1 comp) with 100k... 2 years beating the balls off it. Never had a problem. 

Leave the cams factory. Concentrate on the transmission, that is the weak point. :thumbup: Get a slightly larger hotside for whatever turbo you choose (within reason) it'll help with wheelspin and be a little easier on the trans. Something like a journal bearing t3/4 t60-1 w/ .82 hotside will fit your needs perfectly without breaking the bank. :thumbup: Just my 2 cents.


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## tdmopar59 (Jun 22, 2008)

dasbeast3.0 said:


> If you are looking for 325whp, leave the motor alone. Do compression/leakdown tests, if its good, run with it. Your wasting time and $ rebuilding the motor. The vr is damn beefy right outta the box.
> 
> Ive ran 26psi on a dead stock motor (8.5:1 comp) with 100k... 2 years beating the balls off it. Never had a problem.
> 
> Leave the cams factory. Concentrate on the transmission, that is the weak point. :thumbup: Get a slightly larger hotside for whatever turbo you choose (within reason) it'll help with wheelspin and be a little easier on the trans. Something like a journal bearing t3/4 t60-1 w/ .82 hotside will fit your needs perfectly without breaking the bank. :thumbup: Just my 2 cents.


Thanks for the input! The total idea of my build has changed slightly as time went on so I'm looking at a close to 400 hp build now and I wanna do the rebuild as a nice winter project and it gives me plenty of confidence if I wanna do more in the future. I don't wanna do it all than have a ring or oil pump go 500 miles down the road
Also the 60 trim does seem like the best bet for me for now :thumbup:


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