# Let's talk about ride height



## PassaTT (May 24, 2003)

This was mentioned in the post about aftermarket wheels but I thought that I would start a dedicated thread to keep things clean.
The manual seems to imply that there is a 3rd ride height setting that is available but not selectable. This setting is the "low" setting that is apparently engaged when the car exceeds 80mph or so.
The UI would also seem to support that this pre-defined height is available, else why force the user to push a swtich and then turn a knob and then select for just two settings? For a binary setting like that, just pushing the switch would suffice.
From this, I draw the conclusion that there may be other ride height settings available that we can expose via the UI and not have to use a VAG to recalibrate what those heights should be.
Are there other country codes that have more than "high" and "normal" ? What does a Touareg display?


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (PassaTT)*

Adjustment has been done on the Touareg already. Not sure if anyone has done this on a Phaeton. http://www.tm-techmark.com/tou...t.htm


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## PassaTT (May 24, 2003)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (spockcat)*

That's a good write up on calibration - thanks.
I'm wondering, however, if there are other pre-set ride heights available that are just not exposed via the UI that can be exposed.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (PassaTT)*

I'm going back to Europe sometime in the next 14 days - I'll have a close look at some Phaetons there and see if they offer any additional choices.
Nice idea to create a topic specific thread, Passatt - thanks for doing that.
Michael


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## PassaTT (May 24, 2003)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (PanEuropean)*

Thanks Michael. I have to believe that there is a way to crack into this. In reading through information on the Touareg, the driver has 3 to 4 ride height choices to choose from which indicates that the UI supports it. The Phaeton has a 3rd setting (low) that automatically is chosen so we know that the car can do it.We just need to figure out how to activate it


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (PassaTT)*

I think the Touareg has multiple ride height choices because of the type of use it was designed for - off road operation. The Phaeton, on the other hand, offers two ride height choices (normal and high ground clearance), and will automatically select a third, lower than normal setting at very high speeds, to decrease wind resistance and increase fuel mileage.
I am guessing that the VW engineers deliberately set a pretty high speed threshold for the 'automatic lowering' function - it's about 86 MPH in both North America and Europe - to ensure that the car would not lower unless it could be reasonably assumed that the road surface was both flat and smooth.
If you want a lower ride height that you can select yourself, I think the easiest way to accomplish this would be to 'give up' the high ground clearance mode on the Phaeton, and recalibrate the suspension system so that 'high ground clearance' mode corresponds to normal ride height, and 'normal' thus becomes a few inches lower. In other words, you set the vehicle up so that distance 'a' in the diagram below in the 'high ground clearance' mode corresponds to the specifications for _normal_ ride height.


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## PassaTT (May 24, 2003)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (PanEuropean)*

Well, I doubt I will do that because I don't want to mess with the current normal and high settings that are useful to me now. I am currently driving a Touareg V8 with air suspension as a loaner and I am surprised to see that there is almost no similarity in any of the controls between the Touareg and the Phaeton, including the UI for the Infotainment and in-dash display. So that rules out my theory that the wacky UI in the Phaeton is that way because of the Touareg.
Hopefully you will get some exposure when you are "across the pond" to the Euro-display - I just can't believe we have to go through all those gyrations to switch between only two settings.


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## danv (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (PassaTT)*

One thing I did notice along with the ride height was the suspension settings. I know this is beyond the thread but do you also know a way that the car can be put into default for the sport mode suspension so that it stays there? Every time I get in the car I need to manually set this whereas if I soften up the ride to ultra comfort, it stays this way when I start the car afterwards. My current default is in the middle normally. In addition to this, does the stiffness of the suspension increase with the lowering of the car? Anyone?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (PassaTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PassaTT* »_... I am surprised to see that there is almost no similarity in any of the controls between the Touareg and the Phaeton, including the UI for the Infotainment and in-dash display...

Wise observation. From an engineering point of view, the Touareg is a much newer vehicle than the Phaeton. The Golf V, which has been on sale in Europe for almost a year now, has a lot in common (speaking engineering and systems here, obviously) with the Phaeton.
Michael
*Dan:* Probably that can be done by coding. I am going to try to get some examples of how European cars are coded. Normally they allow the driver far more control than the North American cars.


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## varun56 (Jun 4, 2004)

Has anyone tried to lower the Phaeton yet?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (varun56)*

Hi Varun:
I know Passatt is interested in finding out more about lowering it - I have never seen any pictures of a lowered Phaeton (other than Photoshop efforts). If I find a photo, I'll post it for you.
Michael


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## danv (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

I know that this company 
http://www.bb-automobiltechnik....html 
has sent me a quote on lowering the car. I am still unsure how they do it but it seems to be a mod of the suspension rather than a code change. They said that they can ship it to you since I am not willing to ship my car to Germany. I believe it costs $1200. I will be obtaining a VAG Com and will let you know how that turns out once I enter the codes in.


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: (danv)*


_Quote, originally posted by *danv* »_I know that this company 
http://www.bb-automobiltechnik....html 
has sent me a quote on lowering the car. I am still unsure how they do it but it seems to be a mod of the suspension rather than a code change. They said that they can ship it to you since I am not willing to ship my car to Germany. I believe it costs $1200. I will be obtaining a VAG Com and will let you know how that turns out once I enter the codes in.

I suspect for $1200 BB purchases a level control module from VW and modifies it with their own coding. It is probably something you could install yourself. It may end up be little more than what you should be able to do with the VAGCOM and coding similar to the Touareg's coding.


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## varun56 (Jun 4, 2004)

*Re: (spockcat)*

Well, I got a chance to go to a buddy's VW Perf shop who also happened to have a VAG tool. So he entered the values, only adding 15 to each of the values (Stock Phaeton Values are 417 for the fronts, 411 for the rears). The vehicle accepted the front 2 codes, but would not accept the rear codes no matter which combinations I tried. Ended up giving a Level Control Fault. So we had to do the procedure over, reusing the stock values of 417 and 411, and the fault went away.
Maybe theres an extra step involved in the Phaeton or maybe its just not an available option. Maybe it needs an additional step. We had to try the procedure a few times for it to accept it.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (varun56)*

Try titrating the numbers - start with half the original values, see if the car accepts that. If not, add 50%, if that doesn't work, add another 50%, etc. That's the fastest way to find out what the lowest functional value will be.
Michael


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## danv (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (varun56)*

What was the final outcome as far as how much lower did it end up from stock?
Thanks for the time your taking to work on this.


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## FalconerHK (May 18, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

I did all of this with the Phaeton tech when I got the car. He even went as far as to contact his buddies in Dresden that pass "undocumented" features to him.
The short answer is you can't modify the ride height using codes alone - you have to use mechanical means.
I was bummed as I think the car sits about 1 - 1.5" too high at normal speeds.


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## Theresias (Feb 11, 2004)

I have a phaeton customer with a vag-com system here in germany, we will do the modification tomorro, just FYI.
This is NOT an undocumented feature, we are using the "normal" procedure for the air suspension basic setting.


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## danv (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (Theresias)*

We look forward to the input. Are you familiar with BB Automobiltechnik GMBH and how they are proposing to lower the suspension? I believe that they are in Germany as well.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (danv)*

Here is a link to an excellent source of technical information about the topic of Phaeton suspension calibration and adjustment:
Ross-Tech: Suspension Level Control Calibration
It is interesting to note from the data provided on this page that the suspension height of the North American Phaetons is 1 cm higher in North America than it is in the rest of the world. I have no idea why, however, it tends to support Falconer's observation that the car 'looks too high'.
I'm not big into suspension - I mostly stick to projects that involve stuff inside the cabin - but I will try changing the settings on my car to the default European values (10 mm lower at both ends) tonight or tomorrow, and report back on what the results are.
On a related matter: I am quite delighted with the VAG-COM diagnostic tool software that I bought 2 weeks ago. It is not cheap - between $330 and $350 for the complete software license and the cable that is appropriate for the Phaeton - but it works very well, and the tech support provided by Ross-Tech is really first class, very prompt and efficient. If you plan on doing some fine-tuning of your Phaeton to suit your personal preferences, it really should be the first tool you get.
Michael


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## danv (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

I am sure to be ordering one soon, and am suprised to hear that they are around 350. I thought for some reason that they are around 800. Thanks


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## Theresias (Feb 11, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *danv* »_We look forward to the input. Are you familiar with BB Automobiltechnik GMBH and how they are proposing to lower the suspension? I believe that they are in Germany as well.

B&B is doing basically the same stuff, they manipulate the EEProm itself and put new _normal_ values in. The advantage is that they can put in values that you can't reach via diagnostics. But also the disadvantage is clear, what I heard of you have to pay $1,500 for such a _tuned_ control module. Also you can NOT change the setting, or put it back to normal, except if you send the control module back to the tuner or buy a second control module.
FYI: The control module costs ~560 EUR ≈ $730 USD

_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Here is a link to an excellent source of technical information about the topic of Phaeton suspension calibration and adjustment:
Ross-Tech: Suspension Level Control Calibration

According to the fact that more and more Phaeton owners are around I thought it would be a good idea to put the specified Pheaton heights on the page too.
BTW: The specified heights tells the target heights during the basic setting mode! This means in a normal situation the car has another heights.

_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_It is interesting to note from the data provided on this page that the suspension height of the North American Phaetons is 1 cm higher in North America than it is in the rest of the world. I have no idea why, however, it tends to support Falconer's observation that the car 'looks too high'.

It was a surprise for me too when I first saw that in the VAS and still, I do not know yet why the decided to do this.

_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_It is not cheap - between $330 and $350 for the complete software license and the cable that is appropriate for the Phaeton...

For the Phaeton Ross-Tech's KEY-Series interfaces are fine too, they start at $229










_Modified by PanEuropean at 10:41 PM 11-17-2004_


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## PassaTT (May 24, 2003)

I'm reading all of this with great interest. Thank you all for such valuable input. However, I fear that the main issue that I was trying to work out has been lost. 
Shouldn't there be a way for us to just select the high speed "low" setting that is already pre-programmed into our cars? I would like to select this setting this in addition to using the current NA "normal" and "high" settings which are both useful to me. I don't want to alter my "normal" setting to be lower.



_Modified by PassaTT at 4:57 PM 11-17-2004_


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## danv (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (PassaTT)*

Sorry about that Passatt but I dont think that there is a extra setting available in the controls unless you give up a setting. As far as the direction of the topic, this seemed to be easier to continue than start fresh with a new thread. Sorry about that. I will start a thread when I introduce putting a supercharger shortly.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Theresias)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Theresias* »_For the Phaeton Ross-Tech's KEY-Series interfaces are fine too, they start at $229


Doh - wish I'd known that ahead of time... some guy named Ross in the VAG-COM forum suggested I buy the HEX-USB-CAN thing... Oh well, it works too...


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## Theresias (Feb 11, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Doh - wish I'd known that ahead of time... some guy named Ross in the VAG-COM forum suggested I buy the HEX-USB-CAN thing... Oh well, it works too...
















The HEX series will bring you some cool advantages, e.g. faster and more reliable communcation and of course the guarantee that you have the right tool also for the upcoming generation of cars.
So if you have the choice and if you ca afford it (I guess somebody who bought a phaeton should be able), take the HEX








BTW: I looked it up and _he_ did suggest the KEY...








*duck'n'run*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PassaTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PassaTT* »_Shouldn't there be a way for us to just select the high speed "low" setting that is already pre-programmed into our cars? I would like to select this setting this in addition to using the current NA "normal" and "high" settings which are both useful to me. I don't want to alter my "normal" setting to be lower.

Passatt: 
What you are saying makes sense on the face of it, but is not possible because of how the car handles data communication. There are three possible ride heights that can be selected - low, normal, and high. Normal and high can be selected by the driver. These two selections are passed on to the suspension control module from J523, the Control Unit for the Front Information Display (AKA the radio). The third selection, low, is passed on to the suspension control module from J285, the Dash Panel Insert Gateway (AKA the speedometer). There is no way for the vehicle operator to directly invoke the 'low' command. I doubt if that ability could be enabled, even by VW themselves if they wanted to, simply because the architecture of the system is set up to send the low command automatically from a module that the driver cannot access.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Theresias)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Theresias* »_The HEX series will bring you some cool advantages, e.g. faster and more reliable communcation and of course the guarantee that you have the right tool also for the upcoming generation of cars.

Ah, good to know that, now I feel much better.
BTW, I was at my VW dealer today, and demonstrated my VAG-COM to them. We were comparing it against the 5051 and 5052. When the VAG-COM does an autoscan and makes a printout, it also displays the readiness code for the engine (01). Neither of the VAS units do. I felt like the kid with the newest toy on the block...


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## Theresias (Feb 11, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Ah, good to know that, now I feel much better.
BTW, I was at my VW dealer today, and demonstrated my VAG-COM to them. We were comparing it against the 5051 and 5052. When the VAG-COM does an autoscan and makes a printout, it also displays the readiness code for the engine (01). Neither of the VAS units do. I felt like the kid with the newest toy on the block...

Try to compare the speed, that's impressive too.
Back to topic.
As PanEuoropean allready mentioned, no way to pre-select this.


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## varun56 (Jun 4, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Maybe theres a setting that can modify the speed of which to lower the car? And instead of 86mph that can be set to say 40 mph?


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## Theresias (Feb 11, 2004)

*Re: (varun56)*


_Quote, originally posted by *varun56* »_Maybe theres a setting that can modify the speed of which to lower the car? And instead of 86mph that can be set to say 40 mph?

If you know how to reprogram the EEProm and to change the right setting, especially where the sitting is locaed in the EEProm, than you MIGHT be able to do this.
In short words, forget about it. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## Tail Spin (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: (Theresias)*

That is a great solution if it can be done.
Having the car drop to the low height mode at say 35 to 40 mph.
Please let me know.


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## PassaTT (May 24, 2003)

*Re: (danv)*


_Quote, originally posted by *danv* »_Sorry about that Passatt but I dont think that there is a extra setting available in the controls unless you give up a setting. As far as the direction of the topic, this seemed to be easier to continue than start fresh with a new thread. Sorry about that. I will start a thread when I introduce putting a supercharger shortly.

I didn't intend to chastise you Dan, I think that this is all fair given the thread title. I just wanted to be sure that we also addressed the standard setting issue.


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## PassaTT (May 24, 2003)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Passatt: 
What you are saying makes sense on the face of it, but is not possible because of how the car handles data communication. There are three possible ride heights that can be selected - low, normal, and high. Normal and high can be selected by the driver. These two selections are passed on to the suspension control module from J523, the Control Unit for the Front Information Display (AKA the radio). The third selection, low, is passed on to the suspension control module from J285, the Dash Panel Insert Gateway (AKA the speedometer). There is no way for the vehicle operator to directly invoke the 'low' command. I doubt if that ability could be enabled, even by VW themselves if they wanted to, simply because the architecture of the system is set up to send the low command automatically from a module that the driver cannot access.
Michael

Well, based on that information, then I understand the problem. However, it only leads to frustration over the UI in the FID. Coming from the software industry, I'm used to asking developers why they did something. I sure wish I knew why the developers of this system designed the UI to force you to use two different buttons to only switch between two settings. Something is not right


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PassaTT)*

I see your point - if you look at the ride height control in isolation, it would have made more sense to just enable the button on the console as a toggle (normal / high).
I think, though, that the designers wanted to keep the same UI design across all those buttons, hence, ride height got the same treatment as suspension firmness, which requires the use of the dial to choose between 4 settings.
It could probably be argued equally convincingly in either direction.
Michael


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## PassaTT (May 24, 2003)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Well, I talked to Diane from the NA Phaeton Customer Service Center today (very nice 30 minute conversation, btw), and pointed her to this post for reference. If she is able to find out any information, she'll let me know.
On a side note, I was extremely impressed by the phone call, got a lot of questions answered and generally hung up feeling like I was just treated like a king. Bravo to Diane and VW http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PassaTT)*

Well, as I promised to do in this post, I re-adapted the suspension settings on my Phaeton from the North American defaults of 417 mm (front) and 411 mm (rear) wheel center to fender lip distance to the European defaults of 407 mm (front) and 401 mm (rear). The process was quite simple, exactly as it is explained on the Ross-Tech website - Ross-Tech: Suspension Level Control Calibration.
My car is now 1 cm lower all around. I can't comment on whether this seems to affect anything, because I have not driven it since I made the change. However, if I wind up ripping my oil pan off on the first manhole cover that I pass over, I will let you all know about it.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (varun56)*


_Quote, originally posted by *varun56* »_...So he entered the values, only adding 15 to each of the values (Stock Phaeton Values are 417 for the fronts, 411 for the rears). The vehicle accepted the front 2 codes, but would not accept the rear codes no matter which combinations I tried...

Varun: If you want the car to be lower, I think you need to subtract from those values, not add to them.
Michael 
_Found out later on I was wrong with this comment - see Spockat's comments, further on down the thread. _ Michael


_Modified by PanEuropean at 10:49 PM 11-21-2004_


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## danv (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Since 1 centimeter seems pretty small, do you have any idea if it can be 2? The clearence seems liek a lot under the car as compared to others.


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## varun56 (Jun 4, 2004)

*Re: (danv)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Varun: If you want the car to be lower, I think you need to subtract from those values, not add to them.
Michael

Really? The instruction that someone posted in reference to lowering the Touareg said add! Maybe that was the problem? I'll have to retry it sometime!


_Modified by varun56 at 5:46 AM 11-21-2004_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (danv)*


_Quote, originally posted by *danv* »_Since 1 centimeter seems pretty small, do you have any idea if it can be 2?

I don't know from personal experience if the default value can be set lower or not. I really don't have any desire to further lower my car - I just re-set it to the (lower) European norm out of curiosity, to see if the process worked or not. I don't deviate at all from VW specifications when I do modifications, so I won't be setting it lower.
The default distances mentioned earlier (417/411 mm vs. 407/401 mm) refer to distance 'a' in the diagram below. It might be possible to re-program a lower value. If you do go down this path, my own suggestion is that you do it very slowly and progressively - e.g. 1 cm a week - so that if any unanticipated difficulties are encountered, you will notice them before any damage is done.
*Dimension in Question*


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## danv (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (Paldi)*

I went one and it barely is noticable. I would imagine the height difference from front to rear is something to do with the wieght of the engine. Any ideas. I will let you know if I can go 3 cms or not with the VAG.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (danv)*

Be careful, Dan - "easy does it" - don't slam the thing all at once, lest you discover some unanticipated component, like maybe the gas tank, getting stuffed into the cabin floor...















Michael
PS: Don't forget to post pictures...


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

There will be a point at which the level sensors will not allow you to lower the car any further. Either the settings will not take or you will get a running gear fault while driving. Yes, you should go down in small increments. I would bet you can't go much lower than 15 to 20 mm lower than the stock Euro setting, if even that much.
And you ADD to the setting to lower the car. What you are actually doing is telling the car's computer that you have measured the car and you found it at X height. The car in turn says that the car should be at Y height and modifies the height based on the X versus Y difference. If X is greater than Y, then the car will lower itself If you were to put in a number greater less than Y, then the car would raise itself. Thus giving you an offroad version Phaeton.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (spockcat)*

OK, now I am a bit confused. I think I will have to measure the car height (wheel center to fender, as in the illustration, and base of car from the ground) at both settings - North American and European - to see what the final outcome is.
I can appreciate what you are saying, but if it is correct, then the Europeans have Phaetons that ride 1 cm higher than North American ones. Is this logic correct?
Michael


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## danv (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (spockcat)*

Thanks for the input. I was wondering why it seemed to be taller than when I started. I will be using small increments until I get the fault. To lower it 4" I know is a pipe dream. Any ideas on how to remove the speed limiter?????


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: (danv)*


_Quote, originally posted by *danv* »_ Thanks for the input. I was wondering why it seemed to be taller than when I started. I will be using small increments until I get the fault. To lower it 4" I know is a pipe dream. Any ideas on how to remove the speed limiter????? 

Yes, 4" will very likely cause a running gear fault as it goes beyond the level sensor limits. Besides, you couldn't drive on CT roads with that little clearance.
If I could remove the speed limiter, I would be selling that service.


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## danv (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (spockcat)*

Isnt it true that the speed limiter is set higher in Europe? I know on a recent trip to Ghana, I was in a line of cars, the first one being a diplomat series Phaeton. We all had to follow and at 150 he pulled away from the rest of us who were in a BMWs 7 series. That was what started my facination with these cars. I know that the limiter can be adjusted since I saw this first hand.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (danv)*

Hi Dan:
Phaetons shipped to North America have the top speed governed at 210 km/h (130 MPH). I think all VW products that are capable of reaching any speed higher than 210 km/h are governed at 210 when they are shipped to North America.
I'm not sure what the original (primary) reason for this policy was. Some have suggested tire fitment, because the North American cars are fitted with all-season tires that are not rated for really high speeds. I notice that my W12 has the standard 2 piston front brake calipers installed, not the massive 8 piston Brembos that come standard on a W12 in Europe. My guess is that because VW knew the car would not be going over 210, they figured it made sense to save both they and I the extra expense associated with the big brakes.
The speed limitation can be removed with a diagnostic scan tool, however, certain programming functions require a security code to access, and I suspect that this is one of them. VW probably keeps that security code under pretty tight wraps.
As for Ghana - geez, doing 150 (km/h or MPH, doesn't matter) there is gutsy - the only place I'd feel comfortable hitting that speed would be on on the runway at Kotoka...
Michael


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## danv (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

It was MPH and so in an effort to keep the post on track, which I steered way off, I assume than that even our friends at VAG Com aren't able to help in this matter but I will check in that forum. Maybe if you go back to the factory, you may ask and find someone who appreciates our desires in this matter and while feeling a little rebellious and gives the code up!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (spockcat)*

Way back up there, about 4 posts ago, Spockcat said:

_Quote, originally posted by *spockcat* »_And you ADD to the setting to lower the car. 

It appears that you are correct, and I was wrong in my earlier comment to Varun about subtracting. I have added a postscript to that post indicating that I was wrong.
I went out to my car today, and fooled around with the suspension quite a bit, using the diagnostic scan tool. Here is what I found:
The 'default' measurements that VW provides - the North American defaults of 417 mm (front) and 411 mm (rear) wheel center to fender lip distance and the European defaults of 407 mm (front) and 401 mm (rear) wheel center to fender lip distance - are simply targets that will be achieved if you follow the programming instructions at the Ross-Tech website exactly.
What I mean by this is: You don't even have to know what the default settings are - if you follow the Ross-Tech instructions exactly, to the letter, your vehicle will eventually wind up calibrated to either the North American or to the European settings, depending on whether it is a North American or European vehicle. Which raises the strong probability that there is ANOTHER variable somewhere that tells the Phaeton whether to use North American or European target settings. I don't yet know where or what that variable is.
However, here are some other things I learned today, when I calibrated the suspension of my Phaeton:
1) You need to follow the instructions from Ross-Tech exactly, to the letter. Which means if the instructions say the car engine has to be running, then the car engine has to be running.
2) Don't do the calibration when you are sitting in the car, otherwise, you get a lopsided car. Put the windows down, and run the scan tool cable out the window to your computer, which will be outside the car.
3) It's easiest to measure the distance from the fender lip to the middle of the axle if you hold a credit card against the VW logo in the middle of the wheel, and rest the base of the measuring stick on the credit card.
4) It might take two full cycles before you get your car perfectly calibrated. In other words, you might have to run through the whole process, adapting channels 01 through 05 inclusive, then logging out, twice. The first time I did it, I got the car within 5 mm of target on all wheels. The second time I did it, I got the car within 1 mm of target.
5) _This is speculation on my part, but educated speculation:_ I am guessing that you could probably 'fool' the car into calibrating to a lower ride height if you told it that the distances you measure are greater than they actually are. However - I think there must be an easier, faster, better way, and that way has to do with telling the car what 'target values' it should be using. I mean, how else would my car know to calibrate to 417/411 exactly?
Obviously, what we have to do now is figure out where to set the different target value. My guess is that is done through the coding (channel 07) of the level control unit, not by lying to the car when we go through the adaptation routine using channel 10. Address 34, channel 07 on my car is coded 0017700. When I next get to Europe, I will try to get a diagnostic scan of a W12 there, and see what it is coded to.
Michael


----------



## Tail Spin (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Pulled up next a MB S-500 AMG.
Full 1/2 inch lower than the Phaeton...looked much better.
If we can lower the Phaeton more than "Normal" mode that would be good and fun to drive.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Seems that the procedure is working? Can we stop talking about ride height and get some before and after photos posted.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (spockcat)*

Spockcat:
We are a newer owner group than the Touareg owner group, and have much less experience with the car. Most of us also have far less time here on this BB that someone who has made 9,300 posts. I find this whole process of 'learning together' and 'learning by discovery' to be very useful, and quite pleasant.
Please, relax a bit, otherwise you run the risk of giving offence.
Michael


----------



## danv (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (PanEuropean)*

Okay now that I have tried this several times, I am at the point of dispair. I followed the Ross Tech to the letter and found that the new values when entered would not take. The reason why I know this is that the when I changed the "New Value" from 417 (the front) it whited out the "Read, Test, and Save" buttons. I went to 418 and tried it with 416 and to no avail. Michael were you able to save the new values? For some reason I cant in fact had Ross Tech on the line during one of trials. PS followed exactly what is in the Ross tech guideline and prior posts. Spock, I know that you also have exp in this area, any ideas? I also wanted to lower and so added to the values but cant get it to run. I have the latest 409 software as of last fridays download and I am enclosing the needed info of controller info> VAG # 3D0907553B and Component LUFTFDR-CDC-3uvo1101. Any thoughts?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (danv)*

Dan:
I've sent you my home phone number in an "instant message'. Give me a call and we can yak about it. Don't feel bad, I screwed up pretty badly the first time around as well. My car wound up looking like this:
*What happens when ride height calibration goes wrong...*


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (danv)*


_Quote, originally posted by *danv* »_...when I changed the "New Value" from 417 (the front) it whited out the "Read, Test, and Save" buttons... ...Any thoughts?

Just in case we can't connect by phone, here are some troubleshooting thoughts for you:
Disregard, forget about, and don't even consider the values of 417 /411 mm that are the North American target values for ride height. The car knows these values already! What you have to do is go through the calibration process, as outlined on the Ross-Tech instruction sheet, and when you get to part where the Ross-Tech instructions say "Measure the heights from wheel center to the lower edge of the fender", enter the *ACTUAL* measurement of your vehicle. It is likely that the actual measurement will be way different from the 417/411 targets. For example, when I did the calibration the second time around (after I had screwed it up the first time around), my 'actual' measurements ranged between 435 mm and 430 mm, front and back.
The reason your car is not accepting the values of 417/411 that you are entering is because the car KNOWS those values are impossible. In other words, you are trying to tell the car that the actual measurements that exist at the moment are 417 and 411, and the car is thinking "Hell, that's impossible, I know I am jacked up way higher than that". So, it is refusing to take those 'target' numbers. The fix is simple: Enter the true measurements that actually exist, and the car will then do what it has to do to return itself to the target settings of 417 and 411.
You might have to go through the whole process twice, as I mentioned in a post yesterday. The first time I went through the adaptation process, entering the true distances that I had measured, the car settled down quite a bit - it dropped to about 423 rear and 416 front. I then went through the adaptation process again, re-measuring when I was supposed to (the car moves a bit once you start the adaptation process), and after I entered the second set of true measurements, at the end of the whole process, after entering the validation number of 1 and unplugging the scan tool, the car was spot on target of 417 and 411.
Hope this helps you get back to "Square One".
My guess is that once you have got back to the normal calibration point, you could probably do yet another adaptation, and lie a little about your measurements - in other words, tell the car that it is 5 or 10 mm higher than it actually is, and hope that by cheating in that manner, the car will adapt to a lower level than the target is set for. However, as I mentioned in my post yesterday, I think the real "military spec" fix for lowering the ride height is to find out how to give the car new target figures, not to get it lower by telling it that it is higher than it actually is during the adaptation process.
Michael


----------



## danv (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (PanEuropean)*

As far as the ride height values, I am unable to enter any values other than 417 and 411. In fact any value other than that whites out the buttons so I am at that pioint. As far as those values listed, I can enter and reenter these all day long. Please make a note that when following the ross tech info, you cannot stop this process midway during the phase without getting into a default issue, so for those who start this process, you have to go all steps to 5 in order to complete.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (danv)*

Dan,
If you want to come up to my office sometime during the week I'll try the procedure on your car myself. I work in Cheshire, where the best jet engines in the world are rebuilt (right Michael!).

_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Spockcat:
We are a newer owner group than the Touareg owner group, and have much less experience with the car. Most of us also have far less time here on this BB that someone who has made 9,300 posts. I find this whole process of 'learning together' and 'learning by discovery' to be very useful, and quite pleasant.
Please, relax a bit, otherwise you run the risk of giving offence.
Michael

Michael, I am very calm. Besides, my post about the photos was a bit of a joke. Didn't you see the wink icon? I did like your photo with the Phaeton on stilts. Better than the Phaeton with the shiney black plastic interior. That reminded me of a Beetle interior.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (danv)*

Dan:
We're all getting very worried about you - no posts on this thread for over 48 hours now - are you still trying to find a ladder to climb up to get in the driver's side door of your Phaeton?








Michael


----------



## danv (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (PanEuropean)*

I had to be out of town for a few days. I missed my Phaeton, and my family too!
As far as the height, I use a step stool. I have borrowed a friends cutting torches to see if I can cut it back to down to size. IF that doesnt work, I plan on trying the VAG again. In fact I have all day tomorrow to mess with it and see if it takes the settings. The info the other day was very helpful and if I can't get it, Spock has offered to help me out since he works in the area. I appreciate all of you guys! I hope all you guys have a great T-Day!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (Paldi)*

Good point, Paldi. It is an important thread. I deleted the two off topic posts - one of them was my fault, sorry about that.
Michael


----------



## danv (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (danv)*

Michael and Spock! I got it finally to take the measurements so that it now matches the factory specs. This took a lot of trys back and forth (mainly in increments of 2 mm a shot). I spent just as much time trying to enter in values higher than the the factory specs to no avail even in the 1mm changes. Spock I would like to take advantage of your offer if you have the time. Thanks and hope your t-day went well.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (danv)*

Dan:
I will be in Dresden next Tuesday and Wednesday, and I will ask for sure about changing the default ride heights (rather than fudging it).
Michael


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (danv)*

Just email me and we can get together sometime. I usually prefer to work during the week on this stuff as my weekends are usually busy.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (PanEuropean)*

Here are some pictures of European Phaetons, which are set for a ride height that is 1 cm (about half an inch) lower than the North American Phaetons. The car in the first three photos is equipped with 19 inch 'Omanyt' rims, keep this in mind when making comparisons.
Michael


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Here are some pictures of European Phaetons, which are set for a ride height that is 1 cm (about half an inch) lower than the North American Phaetons. The car in the first three photos is equipped with 19 inch 'Omanyt' rims, keep this in mind when making comparisons.
Michael


I suppose you didn't have a tape measure with you?


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (spockcat)*

Well, to tell you the truth, I travel with a lot of things - laptop computer, cell phone, digital camera - but a tape measure is not part of my normal arsenal.
I'll try and measure the Swiss cars next time I get back to ZRH. I'm not too sure how useful the measurements will be, because we can't compare them directly to all the numbers that have been published here - because I obviously won't be putting the Swiss car into suspension system adaptation mode before taking the measurements.
Michael


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Well, to tell you the truth, I travel with a lot of things - laptop computer, cell phone, digital camera - but a tape measure is not part of my normal arsenal.
I'll try and measure the Swiss cars next time I get back to ZRH. I'm not too sure how useful the measurements will be, because we can't compare them directly to all the numbers that have been published here - because I obviously won't be putting the Swiss car into suspension system adaptation mode before taking the measurements.
Michael

You have your laptop, didn't you bring your VAGCOM cable so you can connect up to the cars and put them into adaptation mode? Come on! Weren't you a boy scout?


----------



## riccone (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (Paldi)*

"Luna Boy" will be getting his pants shortened Tuesday. My dealer already lowered a Phaeton and Tourang so it's possible.


----------



## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (riccone)*

Beware!! Their is a plastic shell under the motor that you may start scraping as a result of lowering the vehicle. My Phaeton started hitting bottom quiet often and all I did was take out 4 pounds of air out of each tire. I put the tires back to normal air pressure and that stopped . I would think then that lowering the vehicle would do this even more. Let me know as I too would like to lower my vehicle.
Just a warning.


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## copernicus0001 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (dcowan699)*

What are the recommended tire pressures??


----------



## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (copernicus0001)*

Mine were 43 lbs for front and 45 lbs for rear. I dropped them both to around 39 just to see if I could get an even smoother ride (rough interstates around here) and on 2 or 3 occasions just in one day I scrubbed the gilled belly pan when running across gutters that divide driveways from secondary roads for example. This produces a scary sound as you think something terrible just happened. Also it turns out I did not like the way the car handled either- too unresponsive to the steering.
So anyway, I put the air pressure back to normal and I haven't heard the sound from under the car again.


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (dcowan699)*

You should go to page 1 of this thread and find the diagram on how to measure the ride height of your car. Could be that your car is riding lower than the factory specs.


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (dcowan699)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dcowan699* »_Beware!! Their is a plastic shell under the motor that you may start scraping as a result of lowering the vehicle. My Phaeton started hitting bottom quiet often and all I did was take out 4 pounds of air out of each tire. I put the tires back to normal air pressure and that stopped . I would think then that lowering the vehicle would do this even more. Let me know as I too would like to lower my vehicle.
Just a warning.









David has shared some very valuable information here that I think we should take careful note of.
When I was in Dresden, I talked to a number of people about difference between European Phaeton suspension settings and North American Phaeton suspension settings. As most of you know from having followed this thread from page 1, North American Phaetons are set to ride 1 cm (about half an inch) higher than the European ones, and North American Phaetons have much higher recommended tire pressures, which also contribute to higher ground clearance.
The reason VW does this, plain and simple, is because road quality in North America is not as good as road quality in Europe. For starters, you just don't find potholes in European roads, period. (Well, not north of the Alps, anyway). Second, many of the inclined ramp transitions from public roadways to parking lots we have in North America would never be allowed in Europe - they violate road construction guidelines. You know the transitions I'm talking about - they are the ones leading into a plaza or fast food joint, with all the scrapes in the asphalt where people have bottomed out on the sharp angle in the pavement. Lastly, a standard North American curb stop - the big cement thing that the front wheels hit at the end of a parking space - is about 8 inches high. In Europe, the standard is 4 inches high for both curb stops, and the curbs at the side of the roadways.
If you are thinking of lowering your Phaeton so that it looks more attractive to you, you might want to give some careful thought to whether or not you will encounter any of the road hazards I have mentioned. If you have potholes, inclined transitions, or high curb stops where you drive, consider the possible damage that could be done to the underside of a car that already has fairly low ground clearance - as measured from the underside of the engine bay cover panel to the ground.
Obviously, it's your call whether to go ahead with the experimentation or not - but be sure you make a well-educated decision about it before you proceed. As for me - based on what I learned in my discussions with the engineers, I'm not going to pursue the matter on my own car anymore.
Michael


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## PassaTT (May 24, 2003)

Michael, this is exactly the reason that this solution does not work for me and why i wanted to access the "low" setting as well as retain the ability to set the stock "normal" and "high" settings for exactly the reasons you stipulate. 
I did get a call back from Diane at VW and she told me that there was no way to manually access the "low" height.


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## riccone (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: (PassaTT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Passatt* »_Michael, this is exactly the reason that this solution does not work for me and why i wanted to access the "low" setting as well as retain the ability to set the stock "normal" and "high" settings for exactly the reasons you stipulate.
I did get a call back from Diane at VW and she told me that there was no way to manually access the "low" height.

After lowering Luna Boy 1" at both ends, that height becomes "normal" on your manual control. When change to "high" the height becomes higher then the original "normal" and lower then the original "high." Car just plain looks better without the big gap above both tires. . . haven't noted any ride difference no have I scrapped anything to date. In that you could raise to an above "normal" setting, I felt comfortable in lowering. 
_Formatting of quotation corrected, text untouched. Michael_


_Modified by PanEuropean at 4:35 PM 12-16-2004_


----------



## danv (Jul 20, 2004)

*Re: (riccone)*

I really don't see what the big concern is since the car has a small button that would raise the car in the event that there is any of the items listed: Curbs, speed bumps etc. In fact since it is probably rare that we would encounter these items, or at least once in a while, i would prefer that the ride height be where I want it and then be occasionally inconvenienced with the fact that I have to press a button then to see a car that clearly looks like they but hugo wheels on a luxury car. At least Audi thought enough to put 20" on there luxury cars.


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## AtlasD3Miami (Dec 17, 2004)

You boys figuring this out ok? Let me know if I can be of assistance.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (danv)*

My guess is that VW has two concerns: First is that owners who are not as alert or not as technically inclined might damage the bottom of the car - thus leading to owner dissatisfaction; second being that these same people would expect the damage to be repaired under warranty, thus leading to very high warranty repair costs for the Phaeton.
I do agree, it would be nice if there was a way that those of us who are 'enthusiasts' could just reset the car, using a diagnostic scan tool, to the European ride height settings. I am pretty optomistic that we will find out what the European coding is eventually - all we need to do this is just a complete diagnostic scan of a European Phaeton. Hopefully I will be able to get scan reports of a few European Phaetons in the New Year when I return to Europe. With luck, this will give us the info we need to not only make the suspension adjustment (properly), but also to enable control of the TPM function (on-off) via the infotainment unit.
I can't fault VW for what they have done - the higher North American chassis setting, and higher tire pressures - when you look at it in a broad context, rather than just an enthusiast context, it does make sense.
Hang in there - we'll come up with a workaround, I am sure.
Michael


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## VPRKLR (Nov 29, 2004)

*Re: (Paldi)*

Did mine 2 weeks ago, love it.
-Joe


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (VPRKLR)*

Joe, do you have any pictures you can post? So far, I am kind of 'lukewarm' on the lowering business - but tempt me...
Michael


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Here's a couple of pictures to re-ignite this thread. I'm sorry, I don't have any further information about the car. My guess, from the look of the headlamps (dual xenon?) and the absence of a roof antenna, is that the photos were taken in Europe.
Michael
*Slightly lower than normal Phaeton*


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## ThwartedEfforts (Jan 12, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Whoa. Too low. How can you tell they're bi-xenons? My car has them but I wasn't aware you could spot the fact from the outside...


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (ThwartedEfforts)*

The inner headlight (the high beam one) is much larger in North America, where we only get xenon provided on the low beam light - our high beam light is halogen, and has the larger reflector needed for a halogen light.
On the Phaetons with dual xenon systems (dual meaning two different xenon lamps on each side), both headlights appear to be about the same size.
Michael
*Dual Xenon Headlamp - European Phaeton*


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## ThwartedEfforts (Jan 12, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Ah, all is clear now.
I have to say, the full-beam xenons on my car are something of an eye-opener (forgive the pun). I used them for the first time yesterday evening - there's a quick splash of blue light, then everything gets gradually brighter, and brighter, until _everything_ in view up front is bathed in daylight. It's quite odd to see the tops of trees illuminated, as normally the lamps are kept very low. Fantastic toys. Why are they not a fitment in NA?


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## Soki (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

No dual xenons on that car, i can tell. I have the dual xenon and if you look close you will notice the parking light on the dual xenon is placed between the headlamps. This has not so the parking light must be placed with the highbeam lamp. Also in this car got a orange "turn-lamp" in the front side so it must be a US car...?
One more thing is that i think that the EU phaetons with dual or double xenon has a more "cristal-look" lamphouse than cars with normal xenon.
Correct me if i´m wrong.
And the car was to low for me.







Very low in front and high/normal in the back... Wounder why he did that?


_Modified by Soki at 6:08 PM 1-28-2005_


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (Soki)*

The Phaeton does need lowering but only half as much as I see on this example car. How in the world does this car not hit the fenderwell is beyond me. Thanks for your work Michael. Good to see you are home safe.


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## ThwartedEfforts (Jan 12, 2004)

*Re: (Soki)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Soki* »_Correct me if i´m wrong.

All EU countries require a front plate and the car has none. Case solved?


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## Soki (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: (ThwartedEfforts)*

Yes that´s one more thing. And another thing (that doesn´t HAVE to mean anything at all) is that the LWB model is kinda rare except for the US. I think i´ve never seen a LWB "live", never in Germany or here in my country. 
-------------------------
I originally posted a picture of the road with dualxenons but i think that´s too much offtopic so i´m going to make a new thread for that.



_Modified by Soki at 8:18 PM 1-30-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Soki)*

Good point. I have seen two LWB Phaetons in Europe, but in both cases they were trade-ins sitting on the dealer lot in Zürich. All the Phaetons I have seen on the road in Europe have been the SWB ones.
Michael


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## fly4food (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: (VPRKLR)*

I am considering lowering my car. Who did it for you and what are the new values? Thanks


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Who to email for a "push button" or Sport Mode lowering kit...*

I just received the following email. Thought you might want to send him emails showing your interest.... 
http://www.fourtitude.com/news...shtml

Hello Fred,

From: [email protected]
Fred,
We did not get anyone interested in the Phaeton lowering kit in North America. You are the only customer asking about it for the Phaeton. If you have customers interested please let them contact me so I can approach the manufacture to speed up the process.

Regards,
Steve



_Modified by Paldi at 9:16 AM 2-7-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (fly4food)*

*Archival Note:* Related topic - Larger wheels and tires!


----------



## fly4food (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Do you recommand going with larger wheels and tires, rather than lowering the car?
Philippe


----------



## varun56 (Jun 4, 2004)

*Re: (fly4food)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fly4food* »_Do you recommand going with larger wheels and tires, rather than lowering the car?
Philippe

Combination of both would be ideal.
Bigger wheels would fill up the gap but raise the car a little bit. Lower the car back down a little, you'll end up with the same ride height AND look alot better.


----------



## fly4food (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: (varun56)*

What size wheel and tire are you thinking off?
I would like to get chromed wheels.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (fly4food)*

FYI, there are three different threads, all with pictures, discussing aftermarket wheels. They are:
Does anyone have aftermarket wheels?
Aftermarket Wheels
Larger wheels and tires!
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Who to email for a "push button" or Sport Mode lowering kit... (Paldi)*

Let's, please, be very careful with the use of the phrase "sport mode". As most Phaeton owners are aware, the transmission already has a setting that is called 'sport mode', and this has nothing whatsoever to do with the suspension system.
I am guessing, from Fred's post above, that what this aftermarket vendor is offering is something that lowers the suspension level of the car. Let's not use the term 'sport mode' to describe that function, because that phrase is already used to describe an existing, OEM transmission function.
Michael


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## streetsounds (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Who to email for a "push button" or Sport Mode lowering kit... (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_Steve Smith at Tunershop has sent me an email announcing that the electronic lowering module is now available for the Phaeton. With it you can manually select the "low setting or sport suspension mode" which is the 15mm lower ride height normally automatically implemented at high speeds. His module replaces an existing one located in the battery compartment and permits the lowering to be selected at any speed and I assume when parked. I don't have all the details yet except the price -$1,550.

Just to clarify the solution.
The black box we offer (this unit is sold in Germany for the Audi A8 (D3), Porsche Cayenne , VW Touareg, Mercedes Benz S, CL, CLS, E and now also for the VW Phaeton).
The black box is TUV certified for all the above cars. It is an additional unit which will be integrated in the trunk of your car beside the original lowering module.
The solution will lower your car in the front about 40mm (1.57 inch) and rear about 30mm (1.18 inch) from your lowest setting. You can now raise the Phaeton with the OEM switch 25mm and lower it again as you can do now.
After you installed the add-on you will be able to adjust the ride height additional +/-15 mm in 2mm increments.


_Modified by streetsounds at 8:00 AM 5-18-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Who to email for a*

Hello Steve:
Thank you for posting that additional information. It sounds like an interesting product. Who manufactures this product? Is it the product produced by BB Automobiltechnik? (see photo below)
Michael
*Suspension Control Module - BB Automobiltechnik*


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## streetsounds (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Who to email for a "push button" or Sport Mode lowering kit... (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_Seems to me that would be too low.

Back to the above BB unit.
Lowering is 30mm.
Now the unit we offer drops the car 40mm/30mm and you can adjust it additional +/-15mm
So if you do not wanna go too low you can set it too 25mm/15mm








Bump ... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Who to email for a "push button" or Sport Mode lowering kit... (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_Perhaps someone will pick up the ball from here, order an ESLM kit and report back on its operation.

Well - I suppose it is one solution, but it's not inexpensive. David has ordered a VAG-COM kit, hopefully it will arrive in the next week or so. Once he gets it, the two of us are going to charge up the batteries on our cell phones, then see what we can do, using the diagnostic scan tool, to lower our cars a little bit. Both David and I looked at the picture of Riccone's car that was posted here last week (I can't find it, probably because it was posted onto a hijacked thread, or posted somewhere else besides the obvious place, which is this thread - *cough, cough, hint, hint*







) and we really liked the look of that car. It was only lowered a little bit - my guess is about 10 to 15 cm.
Anyway - we both drive Volkswagens, even though they have W12's in them, so we are frugal by nature and we'll see what results we can get with the scan tool.
Maybe someone could let me know where that picture of Riccone's car is. We want to use that as our baseline. I hope to heck that no-one photoshopped it.
Michael


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## streetsounds (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Who to email for a "push button" or Sport Mode lowering kit... (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Well - I suppose it is one solution, but it's not inexpensive. David has ordered a VAG-COM kit, hopefully it will arrive in the next week or so. Once he gets it, the two of us are going to charge up the batteries on our cell phones, then see what we can do, using the diagnostic scan tool, to lower our cars a little bit. Both David and I looked at the picture of Riccone's car that was posted here last week (I can't find it, probably because it was posted onto a hijacked thread, or posted somewhere else besides the obvious place, which is this thread - *cough, cough, hint, hint*







) and we really liked the look of that car. It was only lowered a little bit - my guess is about 10 to 15 cm.
Anyway - we both drive Volkswagens, even though they have W12's in them, so we are frugal by nature and we'll see what results we can get with the scan tool.
Maybe someone could let me know where that picture of Riccone's car is. We want to use that as our baseline. I hope to heck that no-one photoshopped it.
Michael

I spoke with the manufacture of the unit. The BB solution comes from the same source as the one we sell.
I also asked the manufacture regarding the VAG tool. He said it is not safe to go that route because their is no security feature. With the VAG tool you lower your car from the actually zero line for a max of 25mm. It will no recalculate your additional settings for ride comfort etc.
One thought for some off you out their. You buy a car starting at $66950 and you want to fine tune it with a laptop and a software? Instead buying a solution all international tuners for VW, Audi, Porsche (Tunershop, ABT, MTM, BB, Nothelle, etc) and Mercedes (Lorinser, Brabus, etc) are selling for many years now with great success? Don’t you think that the rest of the world (especially German) wouldn’t have gone the software way as well if it would be safe? But instead because they know better by now they purchase a tested unit which they know is ok with the manufacturer in Germany and have TUV certification.
I want to see how you explain in a case of accident/failure of the system and you get towed to the dealer why your ride height is off because you tampered it










_Modified by streetsounds at 5:57 AM 2-3-2005_


----------



## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Who to email for a "push button" or Sport Mode lowering kit... (Paldi)*

We (I) are not saying that the module is not the route we will take. I didn't know of this module you speak of until AFTER I inquired about the possibility of lowering my car with the coding changes. Afterall, I just spent $1500 on a laptop and now today should receive a $250 VAGCOM. I simply was asking IF it could be done with a VAG, could it be done safely and effectively since I've invested into the unit. Word is it can be done with the VAG. I'm was unaware of any negative results of doing it that way until your post. First I've heard. For weeks all I've seen on the forum are posts of people doing it with code changes. If that is a problem, I (we) won't do it. 
One more thing, what's so wrong with using a laptop and a VAG?? I could care less what the car cost. If it works , it works. The European cars are set lower than USA cars with the computer settings of the car aren't they? Why not just do what they did???
David

_Modified by dcowan699 at 9:45 AM 2-3-2005_


_Modified by dcowan699 at 9:46 AM 2-3-2005_


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## riccone (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: Who to email for a "push button" or Sport Mode lowering kit... (PanEuropean)*

Michael- It was only lowered a little bit - my guess is about 10 to 15 cm.
I did post the mm's somewhere on here but can't find it. FYI- Luna Boy was lowered about an inch at each end. Don't think 1/2" would do much. In fact, the rear IMO needs to go down alittle more. The front, 1" is "right there." You do have to watch high parking stall curbing when parking so I wouldn't want any lower.


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## streetsounds (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Who to email for a "push button" or Sport Mode lowering kit... (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_One inch equals 2.54 centimeters or 25 millimeters.

The add-on will lower the car without affecting the original VW electronic/programming.
Front min 25mm (0.98 inch) -> max. 55mm (2.16inch)
Rear min 15mm (0.59 inch) -> max. 45mm (1.77inch) 


_Modified by streetsounds at 12:00 PM 2-3-2005_


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Who to email for a "push button" or Sport Mode lowering kit... (streetsounds)*

Steve, is there off-on button or rotary switch? The one positive feature about the electronic module is the possiblilty that one could adjust to the lower ride height setting(s) any time we want. The Vag approach requires you to plug in your laptop and spend an hour up close and personal with the car.
Michael, riccone has opened his own Photobucket account, so I sent his pictures there. Here's one of them...









_Modified by Paldi at 9:19 AM 2-7-2005_


_Modified by Paldi at 2:13 PM 5-29-2005_


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## streetsounds (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Who to email for a "push button" or Sport Mode lowering kit... (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_Steve, is there off-on button?

You use the original switch in the car to raise it and lower it. On the unit itself their is a little screw to adjust +/- 15mm (one full turn equals a 2mm increment)


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Who to email for a "push button" or Sport Mode lowering kit... (streetsounds)*

I think what you said is you plug it in and the car drops. You fine tune it with the screw. Then you can raise the car 25mm to the high setting using the ride-height switch in the car. 
Therefore, it seems both the Vag-com lowering and the electronic lowering module are similar in that there is no allowance for this reduction to be selected or deselected at will - but you can raise it 25mm or about an inch. I believe to lower it from that height, you have to STOP the car. 
I am seeking driver-selection for THREE or FOUR ride heights - and I would ideally like to do this (go up or down) while the car is moving. 
#1 for very low (-1 inch), #2 for low (-1/2 inch), #3 for normal and #4 for raised (+1 inch). 
That's just me, others may want even lower settings for #1 and #2.

_Modified by Paldi at 9:23 AM 2-7-2005_


_Modified by Paldi at 2:17 PM 5-29-2005_


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## streetsounds (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Who to email for a "push button" or Sport Mode lowering kit... (Paldi)*

Well as we already determined the VAG-Com does not allow you to go as low as the black box does.
Here a Phaeton with a about 35mm drop all around
















_Pictures courtesy of ABT Motorsport, Kempten Germany_



_Modified by streetsounds at 2:23 PM 2-3-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Who to email for a "push button" or Sport Mode lowering kit... (streetsounds)*


_Quote, originally posted by *streetsounds* »_I also asked the manufacture regarding the VAG tool. He said it is not safe to go that route because their is no security feature. With the VAG tool you lower your car from the actually zero line for a max of 25mm. It will no recalculate your additional settings for ride comfort etc.
One thought for some off you out their. You buy a car starting at $66950 and you want to fine tune it with a laptop and a software? Instead buying a solution all international tuners for VW, Audi, Porsche (Tunershop, ABT, MTM, BB, Nothelle, etc) and Mercedes (Lorinser, Brabus, etc) are selling for many years now with great success? Don’t you think that the rest of the world (especially German) wouldn’t have gone the software way as well if it would be safe? But instead because they know better by now they purchase a tested unit which they know is ok with the manufacturer in Germany and have TUV certification.
I want to see how you explain in a case of accident/failure of the system and you get towed to the dealer why your ride height is off because you tampered it.

Hello Steve:
I have read your observations, above. Do keep in mind that I am over 21, and am used to taking responsibility for my own actions. Your post kind of has a "I'm going to scare the prospect into buying this part" tone to it, which I do not think is in keeping with the generally collegial tone of discussions in this forum.
I don't know a great deal about lowering Phaetons - in fact, I doubt if my knowledge about the subject is any more than yours is. I do know, however, that the manufacturer of the car - Volkswagen in Dresden - uses a diagnostic scan tool, and not an aftermarket component, to set different ride heights for the different markets that the Phaeton is sold in. If that process is good enough for the OEM, well, it's good enough for me.
In your post, you made reference to "TÜV Approval". As you can see on the English language TÜV web-page TÜV Certification Policy, the TÜV _"recommend(s) to put an image of the certificate, together with the safety guidelines, on the internet by each manufacturer. "_ In the interest of Phaeton safety, which is obviously a topic you feel very strongly about, I encourage you to publish this information as the TÜV suggests. If you would like to email it to me, I would be happy to host the image and/or PDF myself, right on this thread.
It's also important to keep in mind that TÜV certification, a priori, does not imply that a particular device is 'fit for a purpose' - it only implies that the device will do no harm. TÜV is the German equivilent of UL (Underwriters Laboratories) or CSA (Canadian Standards Association). The power transformer and the wireless network card on my IBM laptop also have TÜV approval, as must any electrical device sold in Germany.
Steve, you wrote in your post that the device you are selling is _"is ok with the manufacturer"_. What exactly do you mean by this? Has Volkswagen approved this device for use on Phaetons? Are you certain that statement is correct?
Michael
(speaking only as an individual Phaeton owner, and not as the Phaeton forum moderator)


_Modified by PanEuropean at 6:13 PM 2-3-2005_


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## VPRKLR (Nov 29, 2004)

*Re: Who to email for a "push button" or Sport Mode lowering kit... (PanEuropean)*

Michael, is there a way to post pictures without paying iServe?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Who to email for a "push button" or Sport Mode lowering kit... (riccone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *riccone* »_Michael- It was only lowered a little bit - my guess is about 10 to 15 cm. 

Hi Gerald:
Thanks for that additional information. As I mentioned on the other thread (Luna Boy Lowered photos), I think your car looks just perfect - 10 cm seems to me to be all it needs to look 'congruent', without looking 'slammed'. 10 cm just happens, by coincidence, to be the exact difference between the standard European Phaeton suspension setting, as shipped out of the factory, and the standard North American suspension setting, as shipped out of the factory.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Who to email for a "push button" or Sport Mode lowering kit... (VPRKLR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VPRKLR* »_Michael, is there a way to post pictures without paying iServe?

Yes, there are many different services out there who offer photo hosting. Generally speaking, you need to make a small annual payment to rent the space. The 'free' services usually have bandwidth restrictions on them, which result in a red "X" showing up sometimes when people try to view the photo.
If you just have one or two photos that you want to host, email them to me (click on my username at the far left, to reveal my email address), and I will host them for you, at no charge, on the service I use. This offer extends to all members of the Phaeton forum. If you plan on hosting quite a few pictures, and adding to the collection on a regular basis, you probably should look at a commercial hosting service. I'm not familiar with the "iServe" hosting site that Vortex uses, only because it is a very new service and I have not had time to look at it. I suspect it offers a number of advantages, because of the 'direct-tie-in' with the Vortex site.
Personally, I use www.hostdub.com - this is a VW specific enthusiast site. Their prices are reasonable, and the service and reliability from this company has been excellent, so I feel confident recommending them.
Michael


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## streetsounds (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Who to email for a "push button" or Sport Mode lowering kit... (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael,
I am not a Phaeton owner and I am not too much concerned if someone used the VAG-com tool or not to adjust his car. It is up to the Owner and what he considers safe. I just posted the info after Paldi e-mailed me several times about it.
I drive a 2005 A8 and I also did the lowering with the VAG-com tool because I thought it is a great and cheap solution. Latest experience with Audi USA and the warranty situation tells me not to tamper with the original system.
After my car had to go back for service the Dealer noticed that the original settings of the car was altered and they did not want to value my Audi Warranty. It took me a long time to convince them to work on my car under warranty.
This A8 which is located in our Headquarter in Naila, Germany








has been lowered via software at MTM Headquarters in Wettstetten Germany. Roland Mayer Chairman of MTM was so kind and called a technician from Audi Germany over to lower it for Tunershop Germany free of charge. The technician working for Audi (manufacturing plant only 5 miles away from MTM) had to program for *1 hour 45 minutes* to recalibrate the system correctly.
You are slightly mistaken regarding the reference of TÜV certification. 
Their are different layers of TÜV and one is the TÜV Automotive GmbH. This branch will test every product for safety.
For example: If VW says they want to run a 18” new rim design on the Phaeton they have to give this rim to the TÜV Automotive GmbH and they will test it. If is passes VW gets a certificate outlining the test and the approval to run this new 18” on the VW Phaeton. Even the required tire sizes are mentioned and also what tire brand to use. If they approved Bridgestone you are not allowed to mount Dunlop without getting this certified again local at a TÜV testing facility.
Now when I say that the module we resell is approved by the TÜV it means that the TÜV Automotive GmbH tested the unit for the Manufacturer of the unit and said you can add the black box to your VW Phaeton without having safety concerns. The manufacturer of the unit works closely together with companies like Bosch and Mercedes over 13 years now. Mercedes had adaptable ride high suspensions way before Audi and VW did. Even Koni had a electronic suspension for a VW Golf II in the 80’s with 4 adjustable settings.
Also you say: "recommend(s) to put an image of the certificate, together with the safety guidelines, on the internet by each manufacturer. "
We are the reseller and not the manufacturer. If you purchase any automotive product in Germany - rims, suspension, exhaust, body kits and even tinted windows – it comes with a TÜV certification. This is required by law. Some of these certifications will say that you are allowed to install the item (window tint for example) and you have to carry the certification in the car incase of any inspection. If you get pulled over by the Police and you do not have it your car may get inpounded.
The other kind of certification – tires, suspension, etc – will require that you drive your car after installation to a TÜV testing facility. They will make sure that your rims are not pocking passed the fenders,t ires are mounted correctly or that after you installed a suspension the car will not rub anywhere because you lowered to much. If it passes then they will approve your car and will state it in the title.
But then again ... we are in the USA and who cares about regulations in another Country.


_Modified by streetsounds at 4:13 PM 2-3-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Who to email for a "push button" or Sport Mode lowering kit... (streetsounds)*

Hi Steve:
Thanks for that additional information.
One of the things that we have been trying to discover for the past few months is what the coding and adaptation differences are - on the stock suspension control unit - between the North American and the European specification Phaetons. Both vehicles use the same components for suspension control, and the same tire sizes and wheels, the difference is that the European vehicles are set 10 mm lower, front and back, than the North American vehicles.
The reasons for this (and technical specifications outlining this) are well documented in VW literature. What is not documented is how to adapt or recode the vehicle so that is operates at the lower ride height. Hopefully, we will eventually figure out what the correct coding is to accomplish this.
All the work done by owners that has been published here on this thread has been, essentially, 'fooling' the car into thinking that it is sitting higher than it is. The result is that the suspension system compensates by sitting a bit lower.
Ultimately, I think there will be two solutions, both of which will be entirely "safe", in the sense that they will not affect the original functional specifications of the car:
*1)* For a persistent 1 cm drop from existing North American ride heights, we need to determine the correct coding and/or adaptation values for the European Phaeton, and code/adapt our vehicles in exactly the same manner as the factory codes and/or adapts the European vehicles.
*2)* For owners who want either a greater drop than that, or additional control over suspension settings, the product you are offering will meet that need.
The whole issue of 'warranty' is one that varies greatly from dealer to dealer. Some forum members (e.g. David) have dealers who refuse to even turn off the seat belt chime, other forum members, such as myself, have dealers who say "Hey, if you want to fool around with the suspension settings on your Phaeton, bring it up to the dealership and you can use our VAS 6292 to help you do the measurements". The attitude of the dealerships seems to vary according to the country they are located in. In Zurich, Switzerland, Phaeton owners can buy the B&B component pictured above out of the display case in the dealership parts department, and have it fitted by the dealership staff.
Michael


_Modified by PanEuropean at 7:36 PM 2-3-2005_


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## streetsounds (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Who to email for a "push button" or Sport Mode lowering kit... (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_What is not documented is how to adapt or recode the vehicle so that is operates at the lower ride height.

I will post some questions on German forums and see if I can find something out. We do not use the VAG-com in Germany due to the mentioned regulations. Otherwise it would be simply for us to get the codes from a car.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*I followed the Touareg lowering instructions*

Using the VAGCOM, I followed the instructions laid out to lower a Touraeg and I lowered my car about 23 mm in rear and 24 mm in front. My car accepted the values in one big move. I never had a problem whatsoever, no messages on the dash, and so far no scrubbing of the bellypan. It was so easy it was frightening. The only thing that I don't understand is why do I have to have my wheels realigned? One of the Ross-Tech guys said that once I was satisfied with the setting, I needed to have my wheels aligned








David


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: I followed the Touareg lowering instructions (dcowan699)*

Hi David:
Wow - that is one huge drop, I am quite amazed that the car accepted it all in one gulp. May I trouble you to perhaps measure the wheel hub center to fender lip distances again in a day or two, after you have driven the car for a while, just to determine if the values have 'stuck'? All of the VW technical documentation lists the dimensions in metric values (mm), so if you can measure in that value, great - if not, just measure in inches and I'll do the conversions for you.
Concerning 'wheel alignment', I don't know exactly what the Ross-Tech person meant. It is _possible_ that he meant to say that the steering wheel angle sensor needs to be re-calibrated. If that is the case (you'll know if you get "Steering - Workshop" messages in your instrument panel display), you can accomplish this yourself by driving the car in a figure-eight pattern at a fairly low speed (e.g. 10 MPH) in a shopping mall parking lot. The vehicle normally self-calibrates.
It is possible, though, that he meant 'wheel alignment' in the conventional sense of the term, meaning, adjustment of camber, caster, toe-in, stuff like that. If that is the case, be aware that Phaetons (and Touaregs also, for that matter) require a special wheel alignment calibration stand and associated computer that is normally found only at VW dealers.
Michael


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: I followed the Touareg lowering instructions (PanEuropean)*

I wrote the change in mm down on paper and stuck it in my glovebox and also a copy of it in my computer so that I can then "trick" the suspension the other way around if need be. At that point I simply subtract. You have to realize that the value that the VAG will say the car is at is 417mm for front and 411mm in rear at all times. So I placed the fronts at 440 and the rear at 435 and clicked here and there on the computer (just like I read on one of the post that spockcat gave us back on Nov. 9th I think) , remeasured and sure enough it was down around an inch. I used a yard stick and placed a flat piece of cardboard at the center of the wheel to get an "eyeball" guesstimate. You can just look at it and tell it made a dramatic improvement. I will send you some photos tomorrow Michael. The only thing worrying me is the clearance under the motor is small . I will certainly have to avoid straddling any buckling asphalt at intersections where trucks usually travel. I wonder what the average car clearance is anyway????








P.S. It seems that it dropped from around 16.75 inches to around 15.5 all around. That's a pretty close estimate.
David


_Modified by dcowan699 at 12:12 AM 2-5-2005_


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: I followed the Touareg lowering instructions (dcowan699)*

After all is said and done I am probably going to bring it back up 1/4 inch. At least in the front where the clearance is a possible problem. As I was doing this, I was just wishing that VW had just made the fenders lower. Kinda like getting my ears lowered at the barber shop










_Modified by dcowan699 at 12:19 AM 2-5-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: I followed the Touareg lowering instructions (dcowan699)*

That's funny. Just a suggestion - if Kim drives the car, be sure to let her know that she will have to stop prior to the concrete tire stops at the end of the parking spaces. The folks in Dresden told me that one of the main reasons they lifted the US Phaetons was to clear those concrete curbs. European curbs are much, much smaller, and normally, there will not be a tire stop' at the end of a parking space in Europe.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: I followed the Touareg lowering instructions (dcowan699)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dcowan699* »_ It seems that it dropped from around 16.75 inches to around 15.5 all around.

Wow - that's really remarkable. I'm looking forward to seeing the photos. The lowest point of the car is about one foot aft of the front bumper, just slightly to the passenger side - you will see some ventilation gills sticking down from the lower engine cover.
Michael


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: I followed the Tuareg lowering instructions (dcowan699)*

Hi David,
While you've got the car "slammed" could you take a look inside the fender wells and check to see if any body or mechanical component is "close" to the wheels or tires, particularly when turning the fronts lock to lock? 
I ask only because I am interested in the combination solution which is mentioned in my thread about bigger tires. I hope to fit a 3/4 to one inch taller tire and also lower the suspension a half inch. 
If there's any seriously close tolerances when the car is lowered, the use of a taller and wider tire might not work. 
If you want, feel free to call me from your driveway.

_Modified by Paldi at 9:26 AM 2-7-2005_


_Modified by Paldi at 2:18 PM 5-29-2005_


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: I followed the Touareg lowering instructions (Paldi)*

Fred,
I just got home from Home Depot as I bought a meter stick with a level built in. I used a credit card to center the ends of the stick with the center of the wheel and in fact the front fenders are down 25mm but the rear still needs adjusting some (I moved them back up goofing around) and now I will try to bring that down by the same amount again. I will get back later hopefully with pictures.
David


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## VPRKLR (Nov 29, 2004)

*Re: I followed the Touareg lowering instructions (dcowan699)*

Michael, did you get the photo's I emailed you?


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: I followed the Touareg lowering instructions (VPRKLR)*

I just sent them to him. A black car is hard to see the lower edge of the fender so I took pictures from all angles and times of the day. But what I sent him is the result of only about 22 to 25 mm drop. I'm exhausted from doing this as now I'm wondering how to raise it back up if I don't want to keep it that way. I did raise the front all the way back up today and then relowered it. The back is more difficult to get back up







Keep in mind this is not even a full inch but very close, so you may not see a dramatic change---that is what I wanted. I didn't want to slam it down.
Michael , let me know if you were able to open up my pictures. I am tired and may not have sent them correctly. My biggest issue with this whole thing is confrontation with a service tech when I take it in for my first service. They may tell me to take a hike. I also feel they will jump on me for changing the codes for bells, chimes, etc. I did Friday. 


_Modified by dcowan699 at 3:23 PM 2-5-2005_


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: I followed the Touareg lowering instructions (dcowan699)*

I also sent example pictures of some of the road hazards we must consider avoiding with a lowered Phaeton. These pictures are of driveways of businesses where they meet the main road....This can really rip a bellypan off.


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## VPRKLR (Nov 29, 2004)

*Re: I followed the Touareg lowering instructions (dcowan699)*

My car has already been to the dealer lowered, all I heard was looks great!


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: I followed the Touareg lowering instructions (VPRKLR)*

I forgot, how far down did you lower it and have you scraped bottom any? That worries me too. Also , did it affect the ride to you? I sense no big difference but sometimes I think I do (may be imagination and worry kicking in)...
David


_Modified by dcowan699 at 4:43 PM 2-5-2005_


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: I followed the Touareg lowering instructions (dcowan699)*

Since it was not really a code thing to drop the car a little, IF I raise it back up to preset levels before taking it to the dealer, is this modification "transparent" to their diagnostic tool. The reason I ask is that the "stored value" of height always pops up the same before you attempt a "test" value. Since it wasn't a code change, I can't see how they could spot that something was done on the VAGCOM.
Another question, what do the service guys scan for overall when you go in for service? Is it something I can do with the VAG ? I know NOT to scan the airbag as that could screw it up just scanning it.
David


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## VPRKLR (Nov 29, 2004)

*Re: I followed the Touareg lowering instructions (dcowan699)*

I drug the nose once








It does ride a little firmer in comfort mode but handles much better. I rarley take it out of comfort, and now use the ride height adjustment for the extra clearance when needed.


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## WISVW (Aug 25, 2003)

*Re: I followed the Touareg lowering instructions (dcowan699)*

I ran out to buy a VAG tool as soon as I saw the procedure for my Touareg. I lowered it about 1.25" in front and 1" in the rear. I did this at least a year ago ( or whenever the Touareg guys had it listed). It looks tons better and rides the same. I've had no issues with my dealer or fault codes. If it works the same I highly recommend it to Phaeton owners as well. Keep in mind the car lowers a bit more on its own over 80mph (I assume at least it is just like the Touareg in that respect?).
I'm actually pretty happy with the height and looks of my wives Phaeton, so I will leave it alone. I would like to get rid of seat belt chime and nav acceptance screen, like I did in my Touareg tho.
Glen


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: I followed the Touareg lowering instructions (VPRKLR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VPRKLR* »_Michael, did you get the photo's I emailed you?

Yes, thanks Joe. I posted them on the Black Piano Lacquer (Klavierlack) paint thread. Let me know if the text is correct.

_Quote, originally posted by *David* »_Michael , let me know if you were able to open up my pictures.

No, what happened was that by error you sent the shortcut (link) rather than the pictures themselves. Please retransmit.

_Quote, originally posted by *David* »_IF I raise it back up to preset levels before taking it to the dealer, is this modification "transparent" to their diagnostic tool.

Yes, it would be. In other words, if you reset the car to the original suspension values, it could not be detected (from another scan tool) that you had previously changed those values. *BUT:* You don't want to be doing that, it is way too much trouble, and will only wind up leading to iatrogenic problems elsewhere. Just tell the service technician what you have done, tell them that if they have any troubles related to that change, to contact you, otherwise, they should simply service the car as normal. Hell, it's YOUR car, you paid for it, and it is your right to do whatever you want with it. The only time it is appropriate for a dealer to raise issues relating to modifications is if the modification results in an increased workload for them, or the modification makes it difficult or impossible for them to carry out other service or repair work. Period, full stop. Heck, there is even legislation in the USA that specifically addresses that issue - the right of a vehicle owner to make changes to his or her vehicle without compromising the warranty on the vehicle.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: I followed the Touareg lowering instructions (PanEuropean)*

Many thanks to David for sending me this quite remarkable series of pictures showing the ride height changes he made with his VAG-COM diagnostic scan tool.
David, perhaps you can provide sort of a narration of what the different photos show, and what the measurements are - if you want to add that in a subsequent post, I'll then cut and paste it into the header of this post.
Michael
*David's W12 - Photo 1*







*David's W12 - Photo 2*








*David's W12 - Photo 3*
_This photo shows the car 1 inch lower than it is in Photo 1._








*David's W12 - Photo 4*








*David's W12 - Photo 5*


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: I followed the Touareg lowering instructions (PanEuropean)*

Photo 4 is a before picture and photo 5 is an after picture. It's hard to get a good picture showing any changes because the lower lip of the fender does not stand out on a black car. Two hours after finishing this, I bought a meter stick with built-in bubble levels, took a credit card and made sure I measured exactly from the middle of the wheel to the lip of the fender. I got a measurement of 390 on the fronts and around 395 on the rear. Remember , you're wanting this number to go down so you have to trick the car into thinking it's higher so you put in numbers bigger into the computer opposite of what you want. They normally are 417mm in front and 411mm in rear, so the numbers I put in were around 440 for all wheels. But for some reason, I got the front lower than I did the rear. I want to get the lower down a little further. It seems you have to overshoot the values a tad to ensure it goes down enough. This is really not enough in the back to me. I'll try to lower the back fender some more then I'll post those as well.
Keep in mind , I didn't want to slam the car down, I just wanted it to come down to look like the average car fender-well gap. Thanks Michael for posting the pictures and anyone let me know if you think it needs more lowering or just leave it where it is. I think the rear needs to come down 10mm more IMO. Next time I'll put white wall tires on the car...maybe the differences will stand out better








David

_Modified by dcowan699 at 6:51 AM 2-6-2005_

_Modified by dcowan699 at 6:55 AM 2-6-2005_

_Modified by dcowan699 at 6:56 AM 2-6-2005_


_Modified by dcowan699 at 7:13 AM 2-6-2005_


----------



## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: I followed the Touareg lowering instructions (dcowan699)*

David, I'm worried that the front is too low, unless you have great roads. 
Consider leaving the back where it is and raising the front 10mm. 
I agree with Michael's comments on Riccone's lowering of his Luna Boy, as follows in quotes:

_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_I think your car looks just perfect - 10 cm seems to me to be all it needs to look 'congruent', without looking 'slammed'. 10 cm just happens, by coincidence, to be the exact difference between the standard European Phaeton suspension setting, as shipped out of the factory, and the standard North American suspension setting, as shipped out of the factory.

David, set it at what I believe approximates the Euro specifications. Safer ride height - and the car is designed to be at that level. 
With the Phaeton's sophisticated suspension system incorporating air bags, variable shock absorbers, electronic controllers, position sensors and more, I'd try to go to the Euro spec. Now, if we can get those factory codes!
What are the measurements when you put the car in lift setting? Do you get enough height to clear parking stops and curbs?
Fred
_Modified by Paldi at 9:27 AM 2-7-2005_


_Modified by Paldi at 2:21 PM 5-29-2005_


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: I followed the Touareg lowering instructions (Paldi)*

I tend to agree. It looks lower in person than those pix indicate.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: I followed the Touareg lowering instructions (dcowan699)*

In that case the back is perfect because it measures 400mm. The front will need to come up 10mm. I'm going to leave it alone for a couple of days for now. My biggest question is when is the best time for a measurement of the fender height? Right after a fresh cranking, or after coming in from work, or just after making the adjustments? It varies in all situations and yes I did get your email. Cute car


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: I followed the Touareg lowering instructions (dcowan699)*

Measurements on a car with springs should be made after driving it a couple of days to let things settle in. With an air suspension that probably doesn't apply - but the various electronic sensors might need time to acclimate to the changes. How much time, how many miles???
I think you should at least drive around the block once or twice and find a perfectly flat and level surface. 
It might make a difference if the engine is running! The car senses the height and attitude, compensating for passenger and cargo loads. If the motor is "off" does it still maintain attitude control? It might. I read something about deactivating the suspension when the car is transported long distance by truck. Otherwise, the suspension will "lean the car in the turns" even though it's riding on a truck! (Drains the battery...)
Complicated questions you got there!



_Modified by Paldi at 9:28 AM 2-7-2005_


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## mkell (Jan 8, 2005)

*Re: I followed the Touareg lowering instructions (Paldi)*

Hmmm. I am interested in this since I have the larger wheels, thus a bigger wheel gap. I will have to talk to my dealer to see if they would know how to do this.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (PassaTT)*

I came across a product by JE Design that addresses the ride height issue through the installation of an electronic "black box". 
It may be similar or even identical to the two other versions mentioned by other posts in this thread, however, I think it may be a little different. 
They claim it cam be removed quickly and that the car will immediately return to the normal setting after you remove it (before a service visit?).
Here's a small photo. More news about it on their website. The photo is in the Phaeton section, however the description of the product is in a sidebar story about the Audi A8 kit.
http://www.je-design.de/en/20_...4.php








This is their kit for the Audi...
• Blackbox additional electronics for suspension lowering in the 
air-sprung A8
• Lowering by approx. 30 mm
• Available with TÜV parts certificate 
JE DESIGN, the specialist for Audi tuning from Leingarten and member of the VDAT German association of automotive tuners, is now offering a blackbox containing additional electronics for lowering the suspension in the latest Audi A8 type 4E with standard-fitted air suspension.
The electronic suspension lowering kit allows the suspension of the Audi A8 to be lowered by approx. 30 mm, whereby the lowering can be precision-adjusted after fitting in the range of +/- 15 mm in a similar way as with a coilover suspension. The kit takes less than 2 hours to fit and, thanks to the supplied plug, it is possible to restore the suspension to its standard-fitted state within 10 minutes. Installing the kit does not require any intervention into the mechanics, since everything is controlled via the electronic system. Neither are electronic control systems like the operating switch for level and damping impaired by this. JE DESIGN supplies the suspension lowering kit with a 2 year warranty, detailed fitting instructions and, of course, with the TÜV parts certificate.

_Modified by Paldi at 2:04 AM 2-27-2005_


_Modified by Paldi at 2:08 AM 2-27-2005_


----------



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (Paldi)*

€1,400, which is USD $ 1,800 at today's rates.


----------



## streetsounds (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_I came across a product by JE Design that addresses the ride height issue through the installation of an electronic "black box". 
It may be similar or even identical to the two other versions mentioned by other posts in this thread, however, I think it may be a little different. 
They claim it cam be removed quickly and that the car will immediately return to the normal setting after you remove it (before a service visit?).
Here's a small photo. More news about it on their website. The photo is in the Phaeton section, however the description of the product is in a sidebar story about the Audi A8 kit.
http://www.je-design.de/en/20_...4.php








This is their kit for the Audi...
• Blackbox additional electronics for suspension lowering in the 
air-sprung A8
• Lowering by approx. 30 mm
• Available with TÜV parts certificate 
JE DESIGN, the specialist for Audi tuning from Leingarten and member of the VDAT German association of automotive tuners, is now offering a blackbox containing additional electronics for lowering the suspension in the latest Audi A8 type 4E with standard-fitted air suspension.
The electronic suspension lowering kit allows the suspension of the Audi A8 to be lowered by approx. 30 mm, whereby the lowering can be precision-adjusted after fitting in the range of +/- 15 mm in a similar way as with a coilover suspension. The kit takes less than 2 hours to fit and, thanks to the supplied plug, it is possible to restore the suspension to its standard-fitted state within 10 minutes. Installing the kit does not require any intervention into the mechanics, since everything is controlled via the electronic system. Neither are electronic control systems like the operating switch for level and damping impaired by this. JE DESIGN supplies the suspension lowering kit with a 2 year warranty, detailed fitting instructions and, of course, with the TÜV parts certificate.


This is the same solution I mentioned after you contacted us.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (PanEuropean)*

BTW, since I lowered mine about 4 weeks ago with the VAG , it has remained there and still seems satisfactory. I measured each wheel and they still seem to be about an inch lower than original measurements. 
David


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## streetsounds (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (dcowan699)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dcowan699* »_BTW, since I lowered mine about 4 weeks ago with the VAG , it has remained there and still seems satisfactory. I measured each wheel and they still seem to be about an inch lower than original measurements. 
David

Can you raise it back all the way like you could with your original setup ?


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## AtlasD3Miami (Dec 17, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (streetsounds)*


_Quote, originally posted by *streetsounds* »_
Can you raise it back all the way like you could with your original setup ?

VAG-COM lowering procedure still retains full functionality and is reversable


_Modified by AtlasD3Miami at 8:54 AM 2-27-2005_


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## streetsounds (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (AtlasD3Miami)*


_Quote, originally posted by *AtlasD3Miami* »_
VAG-COM lowering procedure still retains full functionality and is reversable


That was not the question.
After you used the VAG-COM solution to lower your car, can you raise it via switch to the same max level as the original settings ? Or do you need to adjust it via the software ?


_Modified by streetsounds at 3:21 PM 2-27-2005_


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (streetsounds)*

Sorry about the slow response. Yes, I have raised it all the way back. I did that 3 weeks ago. Then lowered it right back. It is about a one hour procedure as sometimes it gives me "invalid" message. At which point I have to go all the way back and start over. The first attempt was very successful but since then it can be stubborn. With patience , I got the level where I wanted it. I have to go through the motions quite a few times to go either way. I have left it down now for over 3 weeks with no problems.


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## AtlasD3Miami (Dec 17, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (streetsounds)*


_Quote, originally posted by *streetsounds* »_
That was not the question.
After you used the VAG-COM solution to lower your car, can you raise it via switch to the same max level as the original settings ? Or do you need to adjust it via the software ?

_Modified by streetsounds at 3:21 PM 2-27-2005_

All the levels are still available. The Phaeton only has 2 driver selectable Lift (which the VAG-COM lowering procedure does not alter - it is still maximum height) and standard/normal (this hight is lowered with the procedure. The automatic lowering still occurs to lower the car an addtional amount than standard.
On my A8 I have lowered the car 25mm from standard in front and 20 mm in rear. Lift mode is 40 mm higher than standard and dynamic mode is 20 mm lower than standard plus an addtional 5mm lower above 75mph for 30 seconds or immediately above 120mph.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (streetsounds)*

You need to adjust it via software using the VAG tool, to reset it to the original ride height specifications. Takes a lot of time, so I'm told, to adjust it this way - either up or down. 
EDIT: The above statement is now false or misleading - because of the "new" lowering technique - recoding the controller using VAG. Now it can be done in under fifteen minutes.
The solution you have with the electronic black box is faster if truely all you need to do is plug it in or unplug it, as the case may be. 
The 15 mm adjustment via the set screw adjustment also sounds pretty easy.



_Modified by Paldi at 2:26 PM 5-29-2005_


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_You need to adjust it via software using the VAG tool, to reset it to the original ride height specifications. Takes a lot of time, so I'm told, to adjust it this way - either up or down. 

Actually with a little practice, it takes less than 15 minutes to adjust the car's height using the VAGCOM and the adjustment procedure.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Michael, I forgot you lowered your W12 1 cm (10 mm). Have you kept it at that height? 
Now that you've returned from your African safari







and had some time to drive the car in winter conditions, how's it going?


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (spockcat)*

It seems the right side of the car is more hesitant to respond than the left, especially the right rear. The higher the channel , the more difficult. Channel 1 (left front) responds every time no matter what as long as it was under , say, 20 mm difference. Just my experience.
David


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Paldi)*

I lowered it, just to see if it could be done, then put it back to the standard settings. I have left it there since. I might fool around with it once the snow season is finished - not sure, though.
Michael


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (streetsounds)*

Here's a system for a Benz. I like the description about it's intelligent response to road conditions.... 
quote -
Maximum ride comfort in all situations
As a rule, conventional systems for lowering vehicles with electronic suspension systems do no more than lower the centre of gravity. By contrast, the Carlsson C-Tronic® SUSPENSION lowers not only the centre of gravity but also, thanks to its sophisticated technology, reacts intelligently to the changing road conditions. On poor surfaces where the suspension jounces continuously, the vehicle height is automatically raised to ensure sufficient spring travel for even ride comfort. This demand-responsive system is controlled electronically and automatically so the driver enjoys a high level of ride comfort in all situations. The permanent data synchronisation with pre-set values ensures split-second adaptation to the road conditions prevailing. 

Sufficient spring travel guaranteed at all times
The Carlsson C-Tronic® SUSPENSION also ensures that the vehicle is not further lowered at speeds of over 120 km/h as programmed in the standard system. This guarantees sufficient spring travel and that the ride height does not fall below the minimum level. 

Quick and easy installation
Thanks to the tried and tested C-Tronic® connection technology for the wiring harness, installing and removing the Carlsson C-Tronic® SUSPENSION is not only reliable but quick and easy. For customers, this means only a short fitting time and, therefore, low workshop costs. Furthermore, the vehicle can be returned to its original condition at any time. 



_Modified by Paldi at 12:05 AM 2-28-2005_


_Modified by Paldi at 5:52 PM 4-14-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (Paldi)*

Priced at USD $2,427.- They must figure MB owners are dumber than Phaeton owners.


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## streetsounds (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (Paldi)*

Here the Mercedes Benz DC info
_AIRMATIC Dual Control uses air-filled struts that adjust electronically to different driving styles and situations. If the sensors detect a sporty driving style, for example, the suspension’s comfortable standard settings are automatically firmed up. In manual mode, the driver can choose between sport and comfort settings. 
AIRMATIC Dual Control uses ADS, the Adaptive Damping System. This fully automatic electronic system has four different damping levels, which it adjusts at each wheel in accordance with the road surface and the driver’s requirements. The result is a smooth ride even over poor roads and a car that’s easy to control on any surface. 
Automatic self-levelling is another benefit of AIRMATIC DC. This allows it to maintain an almost constant ride height, even when the car is fully laden, thus increasing stability. The ride height can also be raised manually by up to 25 mm to cope with poorer road surfaces. When travelling at approx. 80 km/h for long periods or when the car’s speed exceeds 120 km/h, the normal ride height is automatically restored._
As you can see the mentioned Carlsson unit doesn't do anything unique. It enhances what's their already. Same with the unit for the A8 (by the way both coming from the same German developer in a different package)


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (Paldi)*

Maybe we should try to keep this thread focused on the "Phaeton" vehicle, before it gets too far off topic.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (streetsounds)*

It's apparent these electronic solutions do more than just trick the suspension into thinking it's too high in order to lower the car. 
In my way of thinking, the trick method is bound to throw some other suspension parameter off - such as ride quality. 
The benz electronic black box unit appears to disallow the suspension to lower the car an additional amount at high speeds - because it is already in a lowered stance it won't let the car go below, and it senses an irregular road and automatically raises the car up from the low setting. 
If Carlsson uses the same OEM developer as those selling the systems for the Phaeton, the engineering appears to be good, and helps protect the car from damage or "driver dumbness".

_Modified by Paldi at 10:15 AM 2-28-2005_


_Modified by Paldi at 9:29 AM 5-12-2005_


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## streetsounds (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_It's apparent these electronic solutions do more than just trick the suspension into thinking it's too high in order to lower the car. In my way of thinking, that's bound to throw some other suspension parameter off - such as ride softness or firmness. 
I am frankly surprised that the benz air ride suspension works like the Phaeton suspension. They most likely both use the same supplier -Continental.
The benz electronic black box unit appears to disallow the suspension to lower the car an additional amount at high speeds - because it is already in a lowered stance it won't let the car go below, and it senses an irregular road and automatically raises the car up from the low setting. 
If Carlsson uses the same OEM developer as those selling the systems for the Phaeton, the engineering appears to be good, and helps protect the car from damage or "driver dumbness" - perhaps worth the cost.


This is what I tried to explain before. I spoke with several German companies regarding the black box solutions versus using VAG-COM. All said it is possible to use the VAG-COM software, however you only tricking the cars electronic. Now the black box actually adjusts with its own electronic circuit the OEM settings constantly as far I gathered. You may understand no vendor will give out its secrets








The manufacturer who supplies the unit we offer works closely with Bosch, VDO, AMG, Brabus, Lorinser, Carlsson, BB, etc. to supply the OEM electronics for their solutions.
Roland Mayer, Owner of MTM told me they offer their own solution.
Considering they work closely with Audi that makes sense.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (streetsounds)*

Steve,
Refresh my memory on this. Where do you plug this device in and after that what do you do? How do you adjust it? Is it accepted among the VW dealer technicians from a warranty standpoint and from the standpoint of not pissing them off. I may get one of your devices in the future. I tried to call you but couldn't get through. I figured everyone may want to know your experiences/thoughts on this.
David


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## streetsounds (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (dcowan699)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dcowan699* »_ "Is it accepted among the VW dealer technicians from a warranty standpoint and from the standpoint of not pissing them off" 

No aftermarket solution is accepted among VW dealer as much as they like if someone modifies the original electronic via VAG-COM
Off course your Dealer will tell you he is tolerant about it, however I guarantee you that if it gets down to it they will tell you always the same story
Aftermarket equipment - Void warranty
Said that no Dealer will send you home with a lowered car and an engine problem. However you may get some problems if you got 20” and your breaks are down every 6 months.


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (dcowan699)*

David,
I suppose you can unplug it when you head for the service bay.
The module has a short cable, bet it plugs into a suspension control computer - perhaps it's in the battery compartment or under a seat.
EDIT: The plug-in location is in the trunk.
Maybe someone here knows the location of the suspension control computer?


_Modified by Paldi at 2:28 PM 5-29-2005_


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## streetsounds (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_David,
I suppose you can unplug it when you head for the service bay.
The module has a short cable, bet it plugs into a suspension control computer - perhaps it's in the battery compartment or under a seat.
Maybe someone here knows the location of the suspension control computer?

Suspension Control Computer is located in the Trunk


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## adibaiz (Feb 11, 2005)

*Question about lowering(again)*

Looks like i might have found a shop here locally that will do the lowering for me if i give them the codes.(print out ) Question is what /where do i get it from...there are a lot of treads about this lowering issue.Also, how low i'll be able to get the car to sit?(10 ,20 mm or more)I only would like to drop it about an inch or so, no more! 
Thanks! Adrian


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## riccone (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: Question about lowering(again) (adibaiz)*

30 mm at both ends will give you about an inch. Anymore than that will cause scrapping problems at parking slot curbing IMO. It also will eliminate the obviously large wheelwell gap. What you are doing is fooling the computer into thinking the "lowered" postion is the "normal." So, if you want to lift the car later, simply go to the "high" onboard setting. Therefore the "high" becomes what is now the "normal" and the "normal" is the lowered setting your car automatically goes to at high speeds. 
Any Phaeton dealer can do this; there is nothing magical about it.


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## adibaiz (Feb 11, 2005)

*Re: Question about lowering(again) (riccone)*

I'll be happy if i can get 20-25 mm...that would be just perfect.VW Dealers...i tried 2 of them here and none wanted to do it for me.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Question about lowering(again) (adibaiz)*

*Archival Note: * Related discussions of this same topic (lowering the car, ride height, et al.)
Ride Height feature not working
Lowering my baby/VAG Tool
Level Control System Module (#34) Coding
Instructions for Level Control Adjustment using a diagnostic scan tool
Michael


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Question about lowering(again) (adibaiz)*

VW raised the US cars because of our poor roads and the approach angles in driveways and transitions between parking lots and streets.
I'd like to offer VW a compromise. At speeds under 15 mph and when parked, allow the car to gradually lower to the European specification ride height. At least it will look good when parked! 
People should be admiring the car, not looking at the fender gap when it's parked!











_Modified by Paldi at 2:30 PM 5-29-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Question about lowering(again) (Paldi)*

Fred, I suspect that the beige car in the upper photograph is still in "transportation mode'. It is a new vehicle, not plated, and for practical purposes, it makes sense to leave them in transportation mode when they are still unsold. That makes it easier to maneuver it around inside the service facilities at the dealership, onto hoists for PDI, things like that.
Michael


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Question about lowering(again) (PanEuropean)*

Michael and everybody with lowered Phaetons,
Those especially that had their cars lowered at the GTG, please share your thoughts about the result. How do you like the ride and handling now? 
By handling and ride, I mean compared to the "old" method of lowering by tricking the car by inputting false height readings. 
And, for those of you who lowered it only using the new, "correct" method - do you notice any ride/handling differences from the stock US spec. set-up?



_Modified by Paldi at 2:32 PM 5-29-2005_


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

*Re: Question about lowering(again) (Paldi)*

Michael,
Could you repost this picture as a color sample for Bolero Beige? I saw a Bolero Beige W12 VWoA company car near my house last night....another light sensitive color. Looks muddy in overcasts weather IMHO.
~PC


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## jmdpjd1 (Aug 18, 2004)

*Re: Question about lowering(again) (Paldi)*

Lowered mine to the european setting about 10 mm or just under a half inch. I think it evens out the gap around the tires. As for the ride and handling, I have noticed no difference. I am getting ready to take it in for energy management update so i will have the alignment checked.
I and all the people at the dealership thought it looked much better. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

Joe,
Between lowing your car and the monotone body panels, your car looks like it lost 500 lbs and gained $10,000 in price!
Let me know how the alignment goes, Dave (the tech at the shop we used) is very curious.
~PC


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Question about lowering(again) (PhaetonChix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhaetonChix* »_...Could you repost this picture as a color sample for Bolero Beige? 

PC, are you referring to the picture on the previous page (Paldi's post of April 15th)? I believe that car is Cairo Grey. Peter Savale sent me those pictures. There are more at this post: FS: 2005 Cairo Grey 4 Seater (new in showroom)
Michael


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

I think I need a better monitor! My error on the color.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: (PhaetonChix)*

Fred, mine has been fine. We are taking it to New Orleans first thing tomorrow for another road trip. That interstate is the worst I've ever experienced in my life between the state line of Mississippi and New Orleans on I-10. It will make the best car in the world ride horrible. Anyway, I have had no problems with Phaetonbaby.


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## riccone (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: (PhaetonChix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhaetonChix* »_I think I need a better monitor! My error on the color. 
Or new eyes?








My tech abilities are limited to making sure the door is closed after entering the car. . . but. . . seems to me the following is true?
1. By moving the car up and down you are simply doing nothing more then moving it within it's capabilities. . . .or, fooling the car so to computer.
2. The D3 had 3 manual settings one of which was "dynamic" 
3. The P car has only 2. However. . . doesn't the car go into "dynamic" or the lowest setting at high speed anyway? 
4. I assume you can't "fool" the computer into a "too low" setting, it has its limits.
5. Can't therefore understant why the "ride comfort" would be changed by moving the car from one to another level within its capabilities.
You can manually change the shock settings. Wouldn't that have more to do with "ride comfort" then moving the car up and down? Noticed no differences in comfort after moving both ends down about 1 inch and didn't expect to. 
Now its time for some larger wheels and tires. These cars badly need something other then 18" stock wheels. Still waiting for something to start the blood pressure up. 



_Modified by riccone at 8:45 AM 5-12-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (riccone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *riccone* »_4. I assume you can't "fool" the computer into a "too low" setting, it has its limits.
5. Can't therefore understand why the "ride comfort" would be changed by moving the car from one to another level within its capabilities.
You can manually change the shock settings. Wouldn't that have more to do with "ride comfort" then moving the car up and down? Noticed no differences in comfort after moving both ends down about 1 inch and didn't expect to.

All of the above depends on *HOW *you change the ride height. If you change it the proper way - by changing the numbers in the coding of the controller that indicate the amount of offset desired from nominal - then ride comfort should not be affected. If you change ride height by deliberately entering incorrect values during the adaptation process - then ride comfort will be compromised.


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## marcelito (Nov 17, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael;
I have tried to lower my ride height on my 2004 phaeton with the info you posted on:Ross-Tech: Suspension Level Control Calibration. we have tried with the VAGCOM to input the values that are on the above link. However every time we put the info the values go back to the North American settings. What are the codes to lower the suspension to European specs and what is it that I do wrong.
thanks.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (marcelito)*

Hi Marcel:
Have a look at the information that is contained in these two threads - they are the most 'up to date':
Lowering the Car (Adjusting default suspension height)
....Coding the suspension control module (Additional information about lowering the car)
I didn't post the information on the Ross-Tech website - that was posted by some other people, long before I arrived on the scene. Those instructions, which advocate a method of "cheating and fooling the controller", have since been superceded - as far as Phaetons are concerned - by the proper method of recalibration that we have developed here in this forum.
Be aware that if you change the suspension height, wheel alignment WILL change. That is a mathematical fact. For that reason, it is recommended that you get the alignment of all 4 wheels checked at your dealer after you make any changes to ride height. 
Also - have a quick look at this thread, which describes our 'tech day' at the get-together: Phaeton Owner GTG in Auburn Hills, MI - April 23 and 24, 2005. There is some good information about suspension adjustments there.
Michael


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## streetsounds (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_€1,400, which is USD $ 1,800 at today's rates.









Worth it?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (streetsounds)*


_Quote, originally posted by *streetsounds* »_Worth it?

Well - no disrespect meant to you, because you are a forum sponsor, but it appears to me that one can accomplish the very same thing - without compromising performance or safety - by *properly *reprogramming the car using a diagnostic scan tool.
What the $1,000 plus gadget does is give you the ability to adjust the suspension settings without having to hook up a diagnostic scan tool. But, we learned at our get-together that wheel alignment needs to be re-checked if the suspension settings are changed, so, I'm not sure it is a good idea to be able to dynamically change suspension settings. VW allows the driver to dynamically raise the height of the car, to get over rough terrain, but the car will automatically lower itself to the normal level if it is driven above a certain speed.
Michael


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## streetsounds (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (PanEuropean)*

No disrespect taken








I guess it ends up that every one has to decide forthemself. One major advantage is that I can get the car back in original OEM mode in less then 1 minute at any given time at any place. Same way I can get it back to the lowered setup.
But see it like this. If the reprogramming would be such a perfect solution as described so many times here, how come that all German VW/Audi/Mercedes tuner offer the module instead? They could simply lower it via software for $500. Their has to be some major disadvantage we are not aware off.
Personably I have the electronic lowering module in my A8 and it works perfect. If my Fiancée doesn’t like to drive the car as low as I do because bad streets etc; well she simply sets the car back to original OEM mode.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (streetsounds)*


_Quote, originally posted by *streetsounds* »_... If the reprogramming would be such a perfect solution as described so many times here, how come that all German VW/Audi/Mercedes tuner offer the module instead? They could simply lower it via software for $500. Their has to be some major disadvantage we are not aware off.

Well - I don't know that simply because all these aftermarket suppliers sell their modules for $1,000 plus, that makes them a preferential solution.
Let me take your same question, and just turn it around a bit:
If those aftermarket solutions are so good, why doesn't VW themselves provide that capability, or use that technology? The process we advocate (described here) is the exactly same process that VW uses when they manufacture the car. 
VW sets the suspension to different default levels for different market regions. North American Phaetons are set to ride 10 mm higher than European ones, to allow for poorer road conditions in North America. What we are doing is simply following the exact programming process used at the factory, to eliminate that 10 mm upward correction. If an owner wants to further lower their vehicle, they can do so - up to 35 mm lower than the default North American settings - buy following the exact process that VW has provided, by design, in the suspension controller.
I do agree with you that if there is a need to be able to change the suspension settings in one minute or less, then the aftermarket gadget offers this capability. If the owner has 10 minutes available, then following the documented VW process - using a diagnostic scan tool - achieves the same results. As mentioned earlier, wheel alignment needs to be checked, to ensure it is within allowable limits, whenever suspension height is adjusted. Because it will take some time to check alignment, there really isn't a great benefit from saving the 9 minutes difference between the aftermarket component, and the scan tool process. They both accomplish the same thing.
Michael


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_

VW sets the suspension to different default levels for different market regions. North American Phaetons are set to ride 10 mm higher than European ones, to allow for poorer road conditions in North America. What we are doing is simply following the exact programming process used at the factory, to eliminate that 10 mm upward correction. If an owner wants to further lower their vehicle, they can do so - up to 35 mm lower than the default North American settings - buy following the exact process that VW has provided, by design, in the suspension controller.
Michael

I plan on getting the VAG-COM and having a go at lowering the car 10mm. However, I think the optimal solution for American vehicles would have been a driver selectable option on the console that would allow us to raise the car an inch (25mm) - which is present now, or to lower it 1/2 inch (10mm).
I would gladly accept another "Legal Screen Warning" for the ability to lower to the euro-spec ride height, as road conditions permit.


_Modified by Paldi at 8:00 PM 5-20-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (Paldi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Paldi* »_I would gladly accept another "Legal Screen Warning" for the ability to lower to the euro-spec ride height, as road conditions permit.

OK, that much seems sensible, from the owner perspective, but now look at it from the manufacturer perspective:
1) Anytime you change the suspension height, you must re-check the wheel alignment on all four wheels. This is an inescapable, mathematical fact. When the car is manufactured, first they set the ride height, then they align the wheels.
VW offers a full 4 year, 50,000 mile warranty on these cars. If there is premature tire wear because of the suspension being re-calibrated frequently (via the button you propose) but the wheels not being re-aligned each time - who pays? If the handling qualities of the car are compromised - affecting not only driving comfort, but also directional stability and, possibly, safety, because the ride height was changed but the wheel alignment was not checked, who's on the line for that?
2) If there is undercarriage damage - and this could be anything from the front chin spoiler to the exhaust system to a hole in a gas tank (something that has already happened to one of our forum members) - who's fault is it? Who's gonna catch the excrement when it impacts the ventilator?
I talked with some senior engineers at the factory today - they follow our forum carefully, and for the most part, they were vicariously happy for us that we finally figured out how to do the suspension adjustment properly - but they were very, very worried that people would re-calibrate suspension heights and not finish the job properly by having the wheel alignment checked and, if necessary, re-calibrated to bring it back to the median position for the new suspension height.
Not everything in the world can be dismissed with a legal warning. There are some pretty solid engineering reasons why VW does not incorporate variable ride height into the Phaeton. The Touareg has it - but, you will note, once you exceed a certain speed - in some cases, as low as 5 MPH - the suspension automatically goes back to the position it was originally calibrated for.
Michael


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
I talked with some senior engineers at the factory today - they follow our forum carefully, and for the most part, they were vicariously happy for us that we finally figured out how to do the suspension adjustment properly - but they were very, very worried that people would re-calibrate suspension heights and not finish the job properly by having the wheel alignment checked and, if necessary, re-calibrated to bring it back to the median position for the new suspension height.
Not everything in the world can be dismissed with a legal warning. There are some pretty solid engineering reasons why VW does not incorporate variable ride height into the Phaeton. The Touareg has it - but, you will note, once you exceed a certain speed - in some cases, as low as 5 MPH - the suspension automatically goes back to the position it was originally calibrated for.
Michael

OK with the above quote. Calibrate the suspension for halfway between "normal" and 10mm lower. Raise the suspension automatically when the car exceeds 15 or 20 MPH due to our lousy roads, or if the suspension detects poor quality roads are being traversed. 
These two measures would eliminate premature tire wear and greatly reduce the likelihood of undercarriage damage because you would be restricted to low speeds at the lower ride height, except, of course, whilst traveling at high speeds on turnpikes and interstates. 
The driver's election to lower the car would require a "legal acceptance" every time. The suspension would revert back to normal height as the "default position" upon starting the vehicle.


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (PanEuropean)*

Let's assume that a 10mm drop in our suspension does not change the alignment enough to warrant having it checked and that their is no harm to the tires due to a lack of re-aligning the car's wheels. My question then is what about that additional drop that occurs after exceeding 75 mph? How much more does the car's suspension drop at that speed? Does straight- line, high speed driving affect tire wear as this drop occurs. In other words, do we need to be highly concerned about that additional 10 or so millimeters of drop at high speeds to get an alignment anyway?????


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (dcowan699)*

I can't answer that one based on engineering knowledge, because I don't have the knowledge. All I can *guess * is that when the car is travelling fast enough for it to automatically lower another 10 mm, it can be safely assumed that it is pretty much travelling only in a straight line, or making very minor changes of direction.
Also - we don't know what changes take place in the suspension and ESP systems at those speeds - there could be other changes taking place that obviate any unwanted effects of the 10 mm drop.
Michael


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (dcowan699)*

David, I would speculate that is the reason why you should have the alignment checked - especially toe in and camber - to assure that the high speed 10mm level will be within specs. 
Of course you can't do the alignment at high speed. If you find someone who can do that, let me come and watch!








But the tire wear is going to happen faster at the higher speeds. 



_Modified by Paldi at 4:54 PM 5-21-2005_


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## dcowan699 (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (Paldi)*

Yeah you're probably right Fred. I will get to that asap. My tire wear visually looks OK. I'm due for the 10K service soon so I'll check on alignment prices then.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (dcowan699)*

Maybe Chris can let us know approximately how much time it takes to check wheel alignment. I do know that the dealer needs to have a very special (and very expensive) 4 wheel alignment device in order to do Phaeton alignments and Touareg alignments.
Michael


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
I would kindly request a day where you can leave the Phaeton with me in the morning (say, by 9:00am) and pick it up after work (after 5:00pm). I would also, if given enough advance notice, provide you with one of our cars to drive for the day (as I have a fantastic working relationship with all my Phaeton Owners







).


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Let's talk about ride height (chrisj428)*

Just for the record - here is the link to the most recent, most up to date thread that provides instructions concerning how to adjust (code, calibrate, adapt) the suspension system on Phaetons: How to Adapt (Adjust, Calibrate) Phaeton Suspension & Ride Height. Because the information in that thread is far more up to date and far more comprehensive than the information in this thread, I am going to lock this thread now, to prevent confusion and fragmentation of information.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Photos re-hosted. But, this thread is closed, please post any new comments to the thread referenced immediately above.

Michael


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