# 18039 - Accelerator Position Sensor (G79) P1631 - 35-00 - Signal too High



## silverstoneVW03gti (Aug 27, 2011)

2003 MK4 - 1.8t - Manual - AWP

Monday,26,March,2012,09:33:54:35976
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.2
Data version: 20120126
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chassis Type: 9M - VW Jetta IV
Scan: 01 02 03 08 09 15 16 17 19 22 29 35 36 37 39 46 47 55 56 57
75 76

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 06A-906-032-AWP.lbl
Part No: 06A 906 032 LP
Component: 1.8L R4/5VT G 0005 
Coding: 07500
Shop #: WSC 00000 
VCID: 77E0EF5255D665B
9BWDE61J434041523 VWZ7Z0B6216944

4 Faults Found:
17526 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor Heating; B1 S2 
P1118 - 35-00 - Open Circuit
17522 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor; B1 S2 
P1114 - 35-00 - Internal Resistance too High
18042 - Accelerator Position Sensor 2 (G185) 
P1634 - 35-00 - Signal too High
18039 - Accelerator Position Sensor (G79) 
P1631 - 35-00 - Signal too High
Readiness: 0000 1001

End ---------------------------------------------------------------------

As of now the car starts, idles & shifts into gear just fine; just no throttle response. I've identified that the O2 sensor wires have come loose and were dragging on the ground causing the shielding to be rubbed through exposing the wires.

I've already got the replacement O2 waiting on me at the local parts store, but I'm wondering what experiences other have had with this issue. Are there any additional steps I will need to go through in order to get throttle response back after I've replaced the O2? I read one thread where the guy fried his ECM & I'm hoping this is not the case here. I'd appreciate any guidance.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

The shorting of the O2 sensor wires likely cooked the ECU. Repair the wiring problem first and see what happens, but likely you'll need to replace the ECU.

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/18039/P1631

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/18042/P1634/005684


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

NEW

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330705229454&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT


REMAN
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330707104033&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT

Both include data transfer.


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## silverstoneVW03gti (Aug 27, 2011)

May I inquire as to why your ECUs are priced a lot higher than other I've seen to include new ones from other sites?


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

New ECU and towed to dealer to program the ECU to the car. Used will work as long as same part# and the dealer is willing to program a used unit.
Good Luck


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## silverstoneVW03gti (Aug 27, 2011)

stan067 said:


> New ECU and towed to dealer to program the ECU to the car. Used will work as long as same part# and the dealer is willing to program a used unit.
> Good Luck


Are you saying the cost is relevant to the price of an ECU plus towing? Just wondering because in my head 695 for a refurb it should come with a stout warranty & plug & drive capability? Either way I know a new ECU is going to cost, I just want to get the most dependability & service for that cost. Thanks for the all the replies.


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

I am saying buy a new unit then you need to tow to dealer to make it work in your car extra $100.00 charged by dealer over cost ECU.
Cost of ECU
Cost of Tow
Cost of dealer to program.
Used ECU is okay as long as the dealer will program a used unit. Call and ask.

Jack's unit will cost more but with some paper work to prove you are the owner of the car. I believe Jack's will be plug and play. No dealer or towing.

Jack will answer those questions just give him time to read this.

Good Luck


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

Make sure you fix the O2 wiring short or you'll kill another ECU!
Good Luck


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## silverstoneVW03gti (Aug 27, 2011)

Thanks. I replaced the O2 last night, cleared the codes & it ran smoothly without the codes re-appearing. Now just the ECU is the hurdle.


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Correct Stan 

My ecu's are all plug and play, include a straight up data transfer so all data is contained to be the same, other then a firmware update, which i also include that the dealer doesn't.

New is new and the dealer ECU's are more.
If not I will be price competitive if I find a dealer to verify a mistake.

Mine also come Immobilizer defeated if no identity is being transfered for paranoid people or some one who wants the system removed.

We don't write a VIN to ECU's unless we get the old one in exchange, to verify no dual identities, with a valid paper trail.

We also write custom SKC codes of your choice with an ecu purchase if you want to select your own PIN. For this, additional parts are required sent in.

Contact me via email for legal forms/details or buy a unit on ebay. What ever makes you feel better.

Make sure before you stick a new unit in you fix that OXS problem.

I could also make you a package on a set of sensors if you like too.

Best,


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## silverstoneVW03gti (Aug 27, 2011)

Turns out that the crossing of the wires on the O2 sensor fried the pad on the ECU that sends the signal to the throttle. I purchased a used ECU and with the assistance of the great customer service & techs from APR I was able to get my program & immobilizer swapped to my new ECU. I'm back on the road now with zero issues.


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

Cool! 
Good Luck


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Did you add fuses? 

Or will we see round two?


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## silverstoneVW03gti (Aug 27, 2011)

I went through all of the fuses and nothing needed replacing. I also added another layer of shielding on the wires for protection. I did end up replacing coil packs, spark plugs & the MAF though.


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

I don't mean check fuses, I mean add fuses. 

Round 2 coming up!


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## silverstoneVW03gti (Aug 27, 2011)

Please do share. I have no idea what you mean, am I missing something? Add fuses for what?


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

silverstoneVW03gti said:


> Please do share. I have no idea what you mean, am I missing something? Add fuses for what?


The O2 heater circuits.


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## silverstoneVW03gti (Aug 27, 2011)

Again I'm confused. My understanding is that the O2 heater circuits are all contained with in the O2 sensor & O2 sensor wiring itself. Since I replaced the O2, added extra shielding to the wires, inspected for any blown fuses & am no longer get codes when scanning with the VagCom what else should I be looking at? Where am I missing something or incorrect at? Thanks for the guidance fellas.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Said fuse will guarantee that there is no round 2. You've done things to help, sure, but nothing is as good as simply fusing the circuit.


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## silverstoneVW03gti (Aug 27, 2011)

So essentially fusing the circuit ensures that if another surge happens the fuse blows instead of burning the ECU? Is it an inline fuse or is there a DIY on this process?


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

Take the power wire to the O2 heater circuit and cut it and install a in line fuse. If it shorts out again it will blow the fuse not the ECU.

Good Luck


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Correct


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## Novo1.8T (Nov 28, 2006)

Seeing alot of threads about throttle pedal faults, weird, I've fixed a few of these cars successfully already without replacing the ECM at all.

I know the Oxygen Sensors are causing the throttle faults due to them short circuiting causing the internal circuits inside the ECM to go haywire, but there is a way to perform a repair without having to replace the ECM to get it to all work again and have throttle pedal functionality. It is probably not the most "proper" repair but it works and does no harm or cause any other issues, or atleast hasn't on any of the vehicles I've repaired with this method.

Step 1: Replace faulty oxygen sensor(s)

Step 2: Install additional sensor ground wires in 2 locations to support throttle PEDAL function.

Step 3: Perform Throttle Body alignment and peda; kickdown adaption if needed and verify no more faults returning, then enjoy not having to spend large amounts of money replacing ECM


How I found the problem:

The throttle pedal does not have direct grounds for the 2 sensors contained inside the pedal, it has to be grounded through the ECM, which I believe is damaged when the oxygen sensor(s) short/fail. All 6 wires from the PEDAL go directly to the ECM. On the vehicles I've repaired, yes they all had oxygen sensor problems, but with the KEY ON ENGINE OFF, you can go into measured values and read all the throttle body and throttle pedal angles just fine(60-63), everything seems fine, throttle body adapts fine, but with KEY ON ENGINE RUNNING, the throttle body still displays fine but the throttle pedal values will display ERROR. Of the 6 wires going to the PEDAL, 2 of them are 5 volt sensor references, 2 of them are sensor signals, and the other 2 are sensor GROUNDS. With the engine running, you can see the ground wires have excessive voltage drop, thus causing the PEDAL sensor signals to be faulty.

How I fixed the cars I've had with this problem:
I added 2 ground wires, attached them to the ground junction on the Left Lower A-pillar area and then attached them to the 2 sensor ground wires and but also left the factory wiring in place from PEDAL to ECM, so essentially I just T'd into them. (Please DO NOT use scotch blocks, take the time to cut and splice the wires together, preferably with heat shrinkable butt connectors) As I'm typing this I can't remember which 2 wires are the grounds for the PEDAL sensors, so I'll have to check when I get a chance, pretty sure it's the wires at pins 2 and 5 of the PEDAL, but not 100% sure until I can verify that.

Hope this info is helpful to some people:thumbup:

*Verified it's actually pins 3 and 5 to PEDAL that need grounds added to, not pins 2 and 5.

See posts on page 2.*


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## Novo1.8T (Nov 28, 2006)

stan067 said:


> Take the power wire to the O2 heater circuit and cut it and install a in line fuse. If it shorts out again it will blow the fuse not the ECU.
> 
> Good Luck


The O2 sensor heater circuit already has a FUSED B+ to the sensor, I believe that's not where you want to add a fuse. if that was the problem, then that fuse should blow, on most vehicles it's just a 10 amp fuse that also supplies B+ to multiple other sensor and relays, such as N80 valve, G70 MAF, N112, J299 and both O2 sensor heater circuits.


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## vdubtech398 (Jul 19, 2007)

:thumbup: 
:thumbup:


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Yeah man, FUSES!

Everyone should do it.


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

Jack did you read the last two posts by Nova? 
I’d like to know what you think about what he wrote.

I actually looked and he is right the power to the O2 heater circuit does power other stuff like SAI and others things. But the power supply is fused already. At least in a Jetta 1.8T motors. I didn't look at Passat or Audi 1.8T motors. 
I always fused the O2 heater circuit only inside the connector cover under the car.

His fix for the problem without replacing the ECU is interesting to say the least...
I’d actually have to wait till I get another car with the problem to test the theory.

Looking forward to your thoughts on it…

Nice post Nova! You got my brain working at least.

Good Luck


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Hey Stan,

No sir, I disagree, will look at it closer. 
He may have hit the lotto of a different type of failure.

Also I think we need to ask Nova something.

_Nova are the controllers you are playing with 06A-906-018 series with split TV and cable or 06A-906-032 series that are completely fly by wire?_


Both types use direct ECU WD connections from what I recall, with the exception of 018 cable type sharing with cam sensor G40.

From what I have seen, most of the ecu's which burn down, TB FBW driver inside ecu do the following.

Display DTC's for the circuits for pedal potentiometer, which makes everyone buy a pedal sensor, but isn't bad, not one ever, have I found.

They all seem to perform an ADP in 01-04-060 but not 063 while no interpretation of function from the pedal potentiometer.

Now for 018 series with a cable and ADP. 
I have seen the opposite where the ADP will not perform, and the OXS heaters are still responsible. These ecu's are wired different, but still will fubar the driver. These ecu's will also let you get home, cause you have a cable, but will shift and idle like crap.

These 018 type ECU's, people replace the TB and it still won't ADP cause the ecu is burnt.
However, it is very rare I see an issue with the TV in both FBW 032 and Cable 018 usually just need a cleaning. I have only seen a handful of TV's fail. They had a ton of miles, or it was the idle step up for the AC circuit, in a cable type. This would cause a 17990 code, but everything causes that stupid code.

I will look into both types to see if a ground enhancement, or power lead will back feed the ecu making it useful again. I doubt it though.

I see he looks like he is talking about the FBW cars based on what he says but I just wanted to show both types.

Further, do to the level of liability for this type of a repair, I would hesitate to do this type of a repair while a board sits damaged in a car to corrode further and short more.

Some ecu's display different things besides the TV driver in some cases for DTC, or burn down.

I will say this though Nova. I like people who experiment and take the time to look at things like this. In some cases it helps people understand a repair from a different aspect.

Additional thought note: 
Since the ground gets toasted back to the ecu from the OXS heaters. The repair that Nova is doing, is also a back feed for ground for the heater circuit itself. Being performed this way, the circuit was not designed in size to supply this much current through those wires to fire the heaters. These circuits should be considered load devices. In retrospect it could cause a fire in a possible circumstance to burn the car to the ground.

At the very least Nova I would add fuses to stop this if playing with this type of a repair.

Consider the information below from WD.

1.0 to ecu from OXS 1 and 2 and 1.5 supply from 10 amp you ref to consumers.

At Throttle pots pedal they are 1.0 and one is .5 ( warning! )


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Update

Will clear DTC's but wont operate properly.

2 and 5 ah nope!

Will ADP but it will without mod of grounds anyway.

One config will get you a very bad response for throttle. 4 and 5 no DTC's

Others will get you a non responsive throttle with no DTC's.

Just isn't worth it, considering the liability.

I guess depending on the DTC's and what burned maybe some may work.

Not recommended!


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

You’re the man, Jack.
Liability big concern in drive by wire. 
Any modifications would be a big liability!
Never liked the thought of wire only, no cable to begin with…
Last thing you want is a run away Toyota.

It had to take some time to test that theory. 
Thanks You!

Good Luck


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Respectfully it did get my attention, and it was interesting to test, its a dud though.


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## Novo1.8T (Nov 28, 2006)

All 3 cars I've fixed were Electronic Throttle Control, (not throttle cable) Fly By Wire as you put. And like I said "maybe not the best or most appropriate repair", but all 3 cars I fixed in the same way and have not had any issues since with the ECM or anything else and are still being driven on a daily basis.

When you tested my theory, did you make sure to leave the wires connected still to the pedal and ECM but just run them both to an extra ground location. I will have to go verify which 2 wires I grounded to be sure, but almost positive it was 2 and 5. 

On a side note, just realized someone has a quite large ebay business selling ECM's.

*Verified pins 3 and 5, not 2 and 5*


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## vdubtech398 (Jul 19, 2007)

Novo1.8T said:


> On a side note, just realized someone has a quite large ebay business selling ECM's.


Lol


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Novo1.8T said:


> All 3 cars I've fixed were Electronic Throttle Control, (not throttle cable) Fly By Wire as you put. And like I said "maybe not the best or most appropriate repair", but all 3 cars I fixed in the same way and have not had any issues since with the ECM or anything else and are still being driven on a daily basis.
> 
> When you tested my theory, did you make sure to leave the wires connected still to the pedal and ECM but just run them both to an extra ground location. I will have to go verify which 2 wires I grounded to be sure, but almost positive it was 2 and 5.
> 
> On a side note, just realized someone has a quite large ebay business selling ECM's.


I've gotta agree with Jack and Stan here. Your method may work on some failures (even Jack agrees with that), but the liability is too great. If the repair does fail later, big problems could potentially ensue.

There are times to save the customer money, and there are times to fix it right. I'm all for saving money and making happy customers, but this is one of those things that should be fixed right.


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Hello Nova 

No reason to get upset. I was happy to hear of your experiment and commended the attempt. 

2 and 5 are not it though, you will induce an additional fault.

The reason for my ebay store is to offer a service for mostly updates of ecu's and data transfer. There are plenty of crappy tuners out there causing issues + early horse crap solder jobs of towers or sockets by idiots. 
We do sell some because of this condition with TV error burn down.
It in no way makes me against your idea based on your insinuation. LOL 
I thought I was pretty clear about why I was in disagreement with the type of repair.
Hell, you even admit its not proper in your post.

Did you give what i said a thought about size of ground wires at T-pedal?
You do realize these are flip potentiometer sweeps right?

That's why percentage counts down and up of other in 060.

I did back probe all the connections, ran them to a proper break out box with alligator clips, verified the connections as you sited, T in to ground. I also did others just to experiment.

I did this on a functional car with no error and installed a couple ecu's which displayed the same code that where in error, same as this post to make sure it was the same issue you reference. I actually repair the damaged circuits in the ECU most are so burned they are not worth doing the repair at all.

Keep in mind I did get a throttle response it just wasn't acceptable for what I saw.

Please verify the config and I will look at it again, just to make you happy. I am happy to see if you show I'm wrong. I hope I am, I need to be kept in check. I am human and make mistakes. The guy who says he doesn't, now he is the nut job. I'm just crazy by default waaahooo!

I can tell you this though, I have been down to visit the matrix of ecu boards for fun as a hobby. Please teach me something new Master Nova.


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

Nova good job! You got me thinking that’s for sure. It sure sounded good.
I also believe you know your stuff. You definitely got are attention and that doesn’t happen too often. So thank you.

It’s the liability that worries me!!!!!

I also realize Jack didn’t read you thoughts very well and told him to read it again.
It definitely got his attention once he read it. Look how fast he tested it out…

I also know that took some time to do and that isn’t free. Again Jack, thank you!

Jack is and can be a huge A$$. But it’s all 100% natural. He’s also proud of that fact.
But he wouldn’t lead us in the wrong direction to sell an ECU.
A$$ or not I trust him! 

This is not a personality contest it’s a VAG knowledge contest.
And any personality is welcome as long as we all learn something new in the end.

Good job by all!

Good Luck


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Anyone who is on the table at the end qualifies.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sGUOzLcoe0


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## Novo1.8T (Nov 28, 2006)

[email protected] Parts said:


> Hello Nova
> 
> No reason to get upset. I was happy to hear of your experiment and commended the attempt.
> 
> ...


I'm not mad, I know what I know, you know what you know. 

Also, sorry for insinuating things, I just had to chuckle a little after I realized you sell ECM's and almost every post you reply to consists of a diagnosis:
-Check this
-Check that
-Probably a bad ECM if those things don't fix it.

Not trying to insinuate things, just thought it was funny.

As for looking at measured value block or even basic setting 060, you are looking at the throttle BODY in that block, those are sensors G187 and G188, yes, they do cross each other(one gets bigger while the other gets equally smaller)

If you check out measured value block 062, you can see throttle BODY in fields 1 and 2, they will cross each other, fields 3 and 4 are the throttle PEDAL, G185 should always read 50% of G79, they never cross each other. 

As for block 063 this is just the kickdown point adaption, of where you set full pedal actuation ADP. 

I will verify my theory myself, I have a 06A906032ML ECM with these faults, I'll be checking it when I have some free time soon. 

And who is Nova? last I checked my name is Novo1.8T


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

To me your Master Nova.
I seem to find pet names for everyone. 

I know what blocks are what, 060 vs 062, or 063.

The point was, that if you have a throttle, it will move field 060 when pressing the pedal.

I think when your looking for the final result, trying to verify your rig repair, of a controller. 
I believe this would be a valid test, when looking for the field 4 to ERROR! 
Which it will, if using pins 2 and 5 to ground I might add. LOL

Chuckles 
As for most tests, when related to sensors, or outputs, my friend from Mexico, Manual will say the same thing.

If fuses, relays, supply voltage/grounds harness ohms out, and sensors check out.
In many cases, they will say, replace the ecu, before I will. 
Its always the last thing to do, after the check list is completed.

Maybe you haven't read my posts for over a decade. I do say on many occasions to default/reboot an ecu.
The repair manual doesn't say to do this, and it fixes a few bugs I have seen.

Even you have rebooted your PC, I'm sure.

Your just trying to establish something, and yes you are being disingenuous, in a negative deceptive way. Any moron can see that.

I'm crazy, whats your excuse? 
Disgruntle flat rate tech, times getting you down for incentive? I hear W5 calling Master Nova.

Last I checked, I haven't seen anyone else offering to check controllers out here on their own time for free.

Naturally as a paid advertiser, and doing this for a living, I would try to sell myself.

FAIL!


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## silverstoneVW03gti (Aug 27, 2011)

This thread has turned out to be a great source of information. Thanks for all the help. Jack I added the fuses as recommended and everything is still running great!


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Excellent!!!


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## Novo1.8T (Nov 28, 2006)

* Just verified myself, PINS 3 and 5, not 2 and 5, sorry for the mis-information. *

As for adding the extra fuses to try and prevent this from happening, you would probably want to try adding them to the wires that run between pin 3 at rear O2 Sensor and pin 68 at the ECM and also pin 4 at the rear O2 sensor and pin 69 at the ECM. When you look at the circuit board of the ECM you see that pin 33, 36, and 68 (also pin 50, but it doesn't go to anything on the car I am using as my test subject) all connect, so I'm guessing this is the sensor ground circuit that gets damaged on the ECM circuit board which is just the sensor ground for G79 and G185 of the throttle PEDAL and the sensor ground for the rear O2 sensor. My guess is the heater circuit portion of the rear O2 sensor shorts together with sensor portion of the rear O2 sensor and sends excessive amperage through the sensor ground circuit, thus damaging the ECM circuit board. 

The extra wires do zero harm, they are not load carrying wires to begin with, just simply a ground for a 5volt reference sensor, so instead of the having to go through the ECM to ground they no have a direct path to it. Yes, probably not the most appropriate repair but, the likely-hood that those wires could cause a run-a-way throttle is as likely as the supersonics returning to seattle (probably never for those that don't get my seattle joke).

Jack, please try pins 3 and 5. 

For future reference:
PIN 1 = 5 volt reference from ECM for G185
PIN 2 = 5 volt reference from ECM for G79
PIN 3 = Sensor GROUND circuit for G79
PIN 4 = Sensor SIGNAL circuit for G79
PIN 5 = Sensor GROUND circuit for G185
PIN 6 = Sensor SIGNAL circuit for G185


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Hey whats up Master Nova?

I will try it. 3 and 5...... got it!

So now that we understand each other, and we know, what we know,..... can we be friends? 

I personally love this engine mod since I was a kid at 5 min 50 seconds.

It never gets old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ayIyC2HQUk


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

Glad to hear your fixed silverstone!

But do you see what you started.... LOL

Can't wait to see the end results!!!
This will be good!

Nova I don't actually believe your fix will cause a run away Toyota. It was a joke...
But the liability still wories me.

Let's see what Jack comes up with...


Good Luck


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## silverstoneVW03gti (Aug 27, 2011)

Sharing is caring. If NovoNova has a cheap fix...everyone needs to know.


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Master Nova,

Current event:
In the news today, a Hyundai runs away for throttle control.

http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/2012/05/14/korean-officials-probe-sudden-acceleration-case-video/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3bXQ5m11lw8

OK good news and bad news. THINGS TO CONSIDER!

Verified several controllers, some will work, some will not. Some will do crazy things like sporadic throttle and one did in fact, RUN AWAY! where I had to shut the key off.

Note: 
It ran away after performing a valid ADP and no trouble codes displayed and that scares me.
I suspect the vibration from engine running, and corrosion from the burn down, being today here happens to be a good humid one, caused this completed circuit.

Since I have like dozens on the bench, I could give some serious feed back here.

3 in 10 controllers tested, worked with what Master Nova states at pins 3 and 5.
I do not endorse this repair after what I have verified.
*I repeat, it should not be done!*

I do think that it was a great find though. A serious attempt to read and trace the circuits using the WD. This I commend you for.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

silverstoneVW03gti said:


> Sharing is caring. If NovoNova has a cheap fix...everyone needs to know.


It would be cool if it works. Sounds like the kind of thing I'd try on my own car, but not a customer's car.

I'm with Stan on the liability aspect. I may fix my own car with a paperclip and duct tape if possible, but customers' cars get fixed right. Not only is there a safety issue involved with rigging throttle control (as minimal as it may be), but we also have to be able to guarantee the repair and stand behind our work.


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

He is Master Nova now.

I have verified he is standing on the table.

The incense has finished burning!


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

[email protected] Parts said:


> Master Nova,
> 
> Current event:
> In the news today, a Hyundai runs away for throttle control.
> ...


He had a great find IMO as well.

But alas, master Nova, 3 in 10, a great repair does not make

One in a million, a runaway car may be, but attempting this repair, worth the risk, it is not.

:laugh:


EDIT: Just watched the Hyundai in the video. Scary. And that guy's got some driving skill...you'd think he'd have the skill to turn the key off though. And this illustrates the point exactly. Jack, me, stan, etc know to just shut the key off if this ever happens. The average driver probably won't know how to react.


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

Yoda say, Master Nova, he now be. 
Excellent Master Nova! 
Welcome to the VCDS Forum!
Please stick around your help will be appreciated by all I am sure.
It is not often someone drops in out of the blue and just lays one on us like that. I commend you. 
I was impressed right from the start just from what you originally posted; just writing it alone got my attention.
Impressing me is easy but you impressed Yoda. (AKA Jack) Dude that’s BIG! That doesn’t happen enough.

Most of us do this on a professional level so liability is the #1 concern. 
As for me I love the fix but will never use it. Anony got a point maybe my own car? But I’d be afraid I’d be too lazy to fix it right when I got rid of my car… so I can’t say I’ll actually ever do it.

I did see the run away car video on T.V. a few nights ago. That was nuts! I also thought it funny that this was on T.V. as we have been talking about this for the past few days.

Well Master Nova I hope you add this forum to your favorites list and stick around in the future. You are welcome that is for sure. 
If you do please read the rules of the forum mostly no help without an auto scan first.

Good Luck


----------



## Novo1.8T (Nov 28, 2006)

[email protected] Parts said:


> I'm crazy, whats your excuse?
> Disgruntle flat rate tech, times getting you down for incentive? I hear W5 calling Master Nova.


Didn't realize you knew me so well, I guess everyone has the freedom to say what they please, so hear's what I have to say.....



[email protected] Parts said:


> Master Nova,
> 
> Current event:
> In the news today, a *Hyundai* runs away for throttle control.
> ...


This statement is a *100% LIE*, you know it and any one that knows how a simple 5 volt potentiometer circuit works knows it. Adding a direct path to ground on the ground circuit of a sensor will never cause the sensor to read incorrectly, but removing the ground will, which is what happens when the rear O2 sensor shorts internally and sends excessive amperage down the wrong wire into the ECM overloading the grounding transistor (that is shared with the PEDAL sensors G79 and G185) which then no longers supplies a sufficient ground circuit for these sensors to operate properly, which can be found when doing voltage drop on the ground circuits of these sensors.

I would love to see so proof to back up your statement though; what vehicle and ECM combination did you use and what is the pin position at the ECM of the wires you grounded to test my theory. I'd love to see for myself how you defied the laws of electrical circuit operation by grounding 2 wires, that need to be grounded in order for a sensor to function properly, but somehow generated the perfect signals to make the throttle operate.

Without the use of electrical signal generating equipment, wiring in a proper ground to these to sensors in your pedal will NEVER cause this to happen, you either did something way wrong, or simply you are lying to try and make yourself look better.

VW's double redundancy electronic throttle control system is almost impossible to create a throttle pedal signal unless actually pressing the pedal or using signal generating equipment.
If one of the sensors doesn't read properly the system will go into fail safe, so maybe the system went into fail safe when you checked it and you just assumed 1100 RPM's was a runaway throttle?



Find me any evidence of a *VW* not Hyundai that did this when it wasn't due to someones floor mats making the pedal stick on the floor.





stan067 said:


> Yoda say, Master Nova, he now be.
> Excellent Master Nova!
> Welcome to the VCDS Forum!
> Please stick around your help will be appreciated by all I am sure.
> ...


I too do this professionally for a living, I work at a dealer and can claim to be one of the best in this country at what I do, which is diagnosing and fixing cars. The realiability of this repair is just as questionable as the guy next to you that forgot to torque those lugnuts and tires went flying off on the freeway. I'm confident in the repairs I made using this repair and will most likely do it again if need be.

Jack is smart, I admit that, but he doesn't know when to shut up or admit when he doesn't know or understand something.

And sorry for lending my suggestions on repairs without seeing an auto-scan, last I checked rules it is not *required* to post a thread in this forum to ask a question, next time I will refer them to the more appropriate forum or ask for a scan. I'll stick around this forum, but you won't see me calling people morons, telling them they fail and post irrelevant you tube clips.


----------



## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

Novo1.8T said:


> I'll stick around this forum, but you won't see me calling people morons, telling them they fail and post irrelevant you tube clips.


Bah. You're no fun. Have a beer :beer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpg8R-19viQ


----------



## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Oh boy, more disingenuous behavior.

Since your the best, or one of the best, or the best of the best. LOL
You know what your doing!

Ok it is no lie. 
I have nothing to gain by posting what I observed.

Apparently you have the new and improved Zero point module super suit, with x ray vision from Snap-On!

I'd hate to break some news to ya,..... but I will  KIA, Hyundai uses the ME Bosch family of ecu's also, and so do other manufacturers, not just VW-Audi.

Oh, since you can see the boards to see what a ground may be completing in a sporadic manner. I'm sorry I just can't compete with this type of scifi technology. 

Adding grounds to circuits which are responsible for the epc when in a damaged state, I can not agree with you at all. The fail safes, when in proper order you site, this is another story you reference.

If your repair was so great as you spout off, and your the best of the best. Why isn't there a service action, or TSB with your unapproved factory repair?

Second, doesn't VW frown upon factory techs coming here, saying things like this for sheer liability reasons with even baning you potentially? If your an OE tech, I know you have been warned?

The reason I post the you-tube links is because they are fun and some are very relevant in a message being conveyed.

I call things as I see them.

That ecu went right to red line, hit the limiter before I got to the key.
What ever,...... your the Master! do as you wish MASTER NOVA!


----------



## Novo1.8T (Nov 28, 2006)

[email protected] Parts said:


> Oh boy, more disingenuous behavior.
> 
> Since your the best, or one of the best, or the best of the best. LOL
> You know what your doing!
> ...


Because you know you are making things up and would never be able to prove it. Performing the wiring modifications properly that I have suggested to a car similar to the vehicle in which this thread was started for, will never cause irreneous throttle signals. 



[email protected] Parts said:


> Apparently you have the new and improved Zero point module super suit, with x ray vision from Snap-On!


Yes, ordered a new one today cause mine is already worn out. What color is the one you have on right now.



[email protected] Parts said:


> I'd hate to break some news to ya,..... but I will  KIA, Hyundai uses the ME Bosch family of ecu's also, and so do other manufacturers, not just VW-Audi.


Don't know what this has to do with the repair I suggested. They may have the same ME Bosch Hardware but I doubt they have the same engine management logic programmed into them.



[email protected] Parts said:


> Oh, since you can see the boards to see what a ground may be completing in a sporadic manner. I'm sorry I just can't compete with this type of scifi technology.


Since you do so much business with ECM's I would have assumed you know how to take them apart, visually see how circuits are connected on the circuit board and research how they work and what everything does. But be careful when you first open the case, all the SCIFI technology oozes out and has to be put back once you are done.



[email protected] Parts said:


> Adding grounds to circuits which are responsible for the epc when in a damaged state, I can not agree with you at all. The fail safes, when in proper order you site, this is another story you reference.


Read this sentence various times and can't understand what you are trying to say. The ECM fail safes are not physically built into the sensor wiring, they are programmed into the logic. Still not quite sure what you mean though.



[email protected] Parts said:


> If your repair was so great as you spout off, and your the best of the best. Why isn't there a service action, or TSB with your unapproved factory repair?


You should know yourself that any manufacturer won't have a TSB or service action for every problem or potential failure on a vehicle. Maybe not enough of these types of problems have been reported to them and they are unaware of this problems level of severity, if know one reports it to them and all of the cars are getting fixed when they are long out of warranty and not being reported how would they.

Also, the first thing I said is,_ this repair may not be the most appropriate repair but it will fix your problem without having to replace the ECM _ never once did I say this repair was approved by anyone but myself. If this car was still under warranty, it would get a new ECM every time, but if I can perform a repair for a customer, saving them the cost of the ECM, and feel 100% confident that the repair I performed is reliable, then I will do so every time.



[email protected] Parts said:


> Second, doesn't VW frown upon factory techs coming here, saying things like this for sheer liability reasons with even baning you potentially? If your an OE tech, I know you have been warned?


Never once have I had anyone from VWoA mention or state that we are not allowed to post our own repairs and opinions on public forums. On the other hand, if I were to come in here saying everything I do is VW approved and warrantable then I could see them getting angry. 



[email protected] Parts said:


> The reason I post the you-tube links is because they are fun and some are very relevant in a message being conveyed.
> 
> I call things as I see them.


Yes, some are funny



[email protected] Parts said:


> That ecu went right to red line, hit the limiter before I got to the key.
> What ever,...... your the Master! do as you wish MASTER NOVA!


I would still like to know what vehicle and ECM combination you were testing and the pin positions at the ECM of the wires you were trying this on, becuase I know, you are either lying, doing this to the wrong wires, doing it improperly, or have an different vehicle and ECM combination than one similar to the one in this thread which could be wired differently and function completely differently thus being completely unrelateable to the argument. I never said it was the same wiring on every car, so you would have to verify which wires to be sure.

I know I can and have restored throttle PEDAL sensor functionality on cars that are very similar to the one this thread was started about by doing the ground wire modification I have suggested. Will a new ECM fix it, yes. Will my suggested repair fix it, yes. Did the rear O2 sensor most likely cause the problem, yes.


----------



## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

I like how, in all that, Master Nova failed to deny the fact that he is a disgruntled flat-rate tech :laugh:

Not that there's anything wrong with being a good OE flat-rate tech (and based on your previous statements, I'm convinced that you are quite good). It's just that I've worked for dealerships before, and it sucked.

I'm also wondering, Master Nova, are you claiming to be the best at diagnosing and fixing _CARS_, or the best at diagnosing and fixing _VOLKSWAGENS_? I realize that the difference is not all that big, I'm just trying to clear up this thought in my own brain cell


----------



## Novo1.8T (Nov 28, 2006)

Anony00GT said:


> I like how, in all that, Master Nova failed to deny the fact that he is a disgruntled flat-rate tech :laugh:


Of course I'm a disgruntled flat-rate tech, aren't we all? 



Anony00GT said:


> Not that there's anything wrong with being a good OE flat-rate tech (and based on your previous statements, I'm convinced that you are quite good). It's just that I've worked for dealerships before, and it sucked.


Sorry the dealership thing didn't work out for you, I've worked for 2 different dealerships, one was awful as well but now I am very happy where I'm at. 



Anony00GT said:


> I'm also wondering, Master Nova, are you claiming to be the best at diagnosing and fixing _CARS_, or the best at diagnosing and fixing _VOLKSWAGENS_? I realize that the difference is not all that big, I'm just trying to clear up this thought in my own brain cell


Sorry for making such a bold statement, Jack sure knows how to get people all worked up. I also know this statement makes me look like a hot-headed douche that thinks he knows all. 

Though, I would say that statement is about VW's, and I do feel my personnal and professional achievements and accomplishments have earned me the right to make statements like this.


----------



## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Master Nova,

Respectfully, you do realize I'm just breaking balls, as well as making what I feel are valid points?

Your way to easy to get going, but it adds spice to the forum for the readers. 

Lets not get off track. My point is about liability and a safe repair.

There are plenty of VW-Audi's which exhibit this problem from within the ME Bosch family.

ME7.5 ME 7.1.1. both ring the bell as a winner for this for VW-Audi. Trust me, VW knows,.... thats why they went UNIVERSAL on all the OXS sensors and blew out inventory.

I am not lying or making anything up. Lets clarify some things, I think you negate.

Logic or flash data diagnostic stack or protocol programmed isn't what we are talking about here.

The car which was in question here was an AWP 1.8T which is ME7.5II with IMMO3.

Pretty much all 1.8, 2.0, 2.7T APB ME 7.1 or BEL which is 7.1.1, 2.8,ATQ AVH,AZG,BDC, etc etc I can keep going bla bla use the same throttle pot pedal config to the ecu. Even early AWD or AMU TT.
Beetle seems to have some of its own special curve balls maybe but would be very isolated.

VR6 land AFP 7.1 vs ME 7.1.1 for BDF or BJS R32 etc etc bla bla.

The point is not your ground relocate un-repair, or what you have had for results. 
My point is when opening up these boards. I see lots of things doing ecu repair, and lots of re-soldering due to morons with poor solder joints etc.

The boards don't all burn down the same. There are several Bosch revisions and version #s that I am aware of, that you are apparently not. That's because its my warp-zone of nerd fun. I have even bored guys who write the code for this tool we pray to in this forum. My stupid antics of what I have tried, or adapted to operate with my equally stupid experiments like yours. 

Because they don't burn down the same, different results can, and will occur.

Think about it, when a K line takes a dump to ground like the TT I did today. As always, came from another shop. All the controllers are dead for COM. What do we have to do. Ah da,... we take the controllers out, one by one to establish com. Most of the time its ABS, or AFT radio. The other day in the forum it was a TT and was the 08 climate. Nope..... not today. It was green grow for the headlight module because its a roadster. And why?..... cause its on the floor to get soaked, but the CCM, and Bose amp are high and dry on same harness, right next to it, but no, we are German,..... so we bolt one unsealed, un-water proofed module on the floor. Of course where the top collects its crap, water etc. I'm a big guy, no I'm a fat bastard. Its tight in there!

Now when circuits get hot and burn, they corrode in most instances due to getting hot and the board becomes hygroscopic. It builds up fast on a humid climate, and then all kinds of goodies can happen. The ECU's are not air tight and breathe. Many I take apart now, have significant corrosion inside, and is causing other types of failures.

The point was when the circuits are grounded, if something isn't right, it could even jump like a carbon trace in a cap for secondary ignition, causing a glitch. Glitch points are interesting for what can happen due to voltage disruption, or completed through an external ground, with what would of been traditionally switched by the ecu.

Even fail safes FAIL! Lets actually use some logic. If the system was perfect it would of never broken. Lets forget the full throttle oh what a feeling Toyota crap for second.
What do you do when a truck is right behind you and he smacks you up the ass because your throttle valve wouldnt move you out of his way? Or on the train tracks? But what ever its has logic and its prgrammed to never happen. See how stupid this sounds now?
Can't sue if your dead and no one can figure out what happened. GREAT HUH?

This forum is pretty active and many VAG-COM tools have been sold for the main reason that by design things fail. Otherwise we would all be doing something else.

Night guys!
Just remember I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm just winging it!!! VW is so easy to fix a total schmuck can do it with VCDS. LOL


----------



## RichardSEL (Apr 5, 2010)

All very fascinating...

But it would be even more useful if there were a simple "how to" on adding the fuses to the O2 circuits.
For a simpleton like me. You guys have convinced me. I want to do it
Value? 
Cartridge in-line? 
Where's the best position accessibility-wise?
Given that you hi-techies are all in agreement there should be some where there's none.
That way I wouldn't get a fried ECU. And be in the dilemma of adding (or not) extra earths to a sealed
unit's control input circuitry that I know not why is faulty or partially faulty

Is the solid state technology employed in the control units under your discussion so resilient that it won't fry faster than it takes a fuse wire to melt?

Here's my last Autoscan membership card:
Friday,11,May,2012,18:30:31:48313
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.3
Data version: 20120401

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chassis Type: 3C0
Scan: 01 02 03 08 09 15 16 17 19 25 42 44 46 52 53 56 62 72
VIN: WVWZZZ3CZ6E etc Mileage: 79170km/49193miles
00-Steering Angle Sensor -- Status: OK 0000
01-Engine -- Status: OK 0000
02-Auto Trans -- Status: OK 0000
03-ABS Brakes -- Status: OK 0000
08-Auto HVAC -- Status: OK 0000
09-Cent. Elect. -- Status: OK 0000
15-Airbags -- Status: OK 0000
16-Steering wheel -- Status: OK 0000
17-Instruments -- Status: OK 0000
19-CAN Gateway -- Status: OK 0000
25-Immobilizer -- Status: OK 0000
42-Door Elect, Driver -- Status: OK 0000
44-Steering Assist -- Status: OK 0000
46-Central Conv. -- Status: OK 0000
52-Door Elect, Pass. -- Status: OK 0000
53-Parking Brake -- Status: OK 0000
56-Radio -- Status: Malfunction 0010
62-Door, Rear Left -- Status: OK 0000
72-Door, Rear Right -- Status: OK 0000

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 06F-907-115-AXX.lbl
Part No SW: 3C0 907 115 Q HW: 3C0 907 115 
Component: 2.0l R4/4V TFSI 0030 
Revision: --H14--- Serial number: VWZCZ000000000
Coding: 0404000319070160
Shop #: WSC 66565 257 00032
VCID: 2E7DC349B90C649
No fault code found.
Readiness: 0110 0101
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 02: Auto Trans Labels: 09G-927-750.lbl
Part No SW: 09G 927 750 T HW: 09G 927 750 T
Component: AQ 250 6F 0832 
Revision: 00H38000 Serial number: 
Coding: 0000072
Shop #: WSC 05311 000 00000
VCID: 42A587F91D94F09
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 3C0-614-095-C2.clb
Part No SW: 3C0 614 095 Q HW: 3C0 614 095 Q
Component: ESP 440 C2 H015 0003 
Revision: H015 Serial number: 0667233697
Coding: 0013731
Shop #: WSC 05311 000 00000
VCID: 3041DD31A338729
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC Labels: 3C0-907-044.lbl
Part No SW: 3C0 907 044 AC HW: 3C0 907 044 AC
Component: ClimatronicPQ46 050 0404 
Revision: 00050005 Serial number: 00000000000000
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 62E56779BD54909
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 09: Cent. Elect. Labels: 3C0-937-049-23-M.lbl
Part No SW: 3C0 937 049 H HW: 3C0 937 049 H
Component: Bordnetz-SG H37 1301 
Revision: 00H37000 Serial number: 00000005320486
Coding: E48C8B0700041A00000A00000F00000000097B4D5C0000
Shop #: WSC 05311 123 12345
VCID: 2E7DC349B90C649
Subsystem 1 - Part No: 3C2 955 119 Labels: 1KX-955-119.CLB
Component: Wischer VW461 012 0503 
Coding: 00063445
Shop #: WSC 05311 
Subsystem 2 - Part No: 1K0 955 559 T Labels: 1K0-955-559-AF.CLB
Component: RegenLichtSens 011 1110 
Coding: 00208933
Shop #: WSC 05311 
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 3C0-909-605.lbl
Part No SW: 3C0 909 605 J HW: 3C0 909 605 J
Component: 05 AIRBAG VW8 029 2521 
Revision: 09029000 Serial number: 003A2P2CFV0E 
Coding: 0012341
Shop #: WSC 05311 000 00000
VCID: 2D7FC445B40A1F1
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 16: Steering wheel Labels: 3C0-953-549-SW25.lbl
Part No SW: 3C0 953 549 AH HW: 3C0 953 549 AH
Component: J0527 0030 
Revision: 00035000 Serial number: 3C0953507 
Coding: 0001414
Shop #: WSC 37519 067 17962
VCID: 72C517396DB4009
Part No: XXXXXXXXXXX 
Component: E0221 002 0030
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 3C0-920-xxx-17.lbl
Part No SW: 3C0 920 970 PX HW: 3C0 920 970 PX
Component: KOMBIINSTRUMENT VD1 4240 
Revision: V0034000 Serial number: 00000000000000
Coding: 0007405
Shop #: WSC 01211 210 17514
VCID: 8937D0D5E022E31
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway Labels: 3C0-907-530.lbl
Part No SW: 3C0 907 530 C HW: 3C0 907 951 A
Component: Gateway 007 0040 
Revision: 00007000 Serial number: 0700C0621500F6
Coding: 3FFD0C04C22003
Shop #: WSC 05311 123 12345
VCID: 21672875F8D2CB1
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 25: Immobilizer Labels: 3C0-959-433-25.clb
Part No SW: 3C0 959 433 K HW: 3C0 959 433 K
Component: IMMO 038 0367 
Revision: 00038000 Serial number: VWZCZ000000000
Shop #: WSC 131071 1023 2097151
VCID: 3245D739AD34409
Part No: 3C0 905 861 D
Component: ELV 024 0370
3C0905861D ELV 024 0370 
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 42: Door Elect, Driver Labels: 1K0-959-701-MIN2.lbl
Part No: 1K0 959 701 K
Component: Tuer-SG 024 2366 
Coding: 0000757
Shop #: WSC 05311 000 00000
VCID: 364DEB29415C5C9
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 44: Steering Assist Labels: 1Kx-909-14x-44.clb
Part No: 1K2 909 144 K
Component: EPS_ZFLS Kl.5 D06 1701 
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 3449D12157204E9
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 3C0-959-433-46.clb
Part No SW: 3C0 959 433 K HW: 3C0 959 433 K
Component: KSG PQ46 ELV 038 0455 
Revision: 00038000 Serial number: VWZCZ000000000
Coding: 0191020851030E763804941570085FCE103980
Shop #: WSC 05311 000 00000
VCID: 3245D739AD34409
Part No: 1K0 951 605 C
Component: LIN BACKUP HORN H03 1301
Part No: 3C0 951 171 A
Component: Neigungssensor 002 0508
Part No: 3C0 951 171 A
Component: Innenraumueberw.002 0508
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 52: Door Elect, Pass. Labels: 1K0-959-702-MIN2.lbl
Part No: 1K0 959 702 K
Component: Tuer-SG 024 2366 
Coding: 0000756
Shop #: WSC 05311 000 00000
VCID: 3753E62D4656A51
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 53: Parking Brake Labels: 3C0-907-801-53.clb
Part No SW: 3C0 907 801 B HW: 3C0 907 801 B
Component: EPB VC8HC001 013 0001 
Revision: 013 
Coding: 0000012
Shop #: WSC 05311 000 00000
VCID: 21672875F8D2CB1
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 56: Radio
Cannot be reached
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 62: Door, Rear Left Labels: 1K0-959-703-GEN2.lbl
Part No: 3C9 959 703 
Component: Tuer-SG 021 2505 
Coding: 0000144
Shop #: WSC 05311 000 00000
VCID: F0C19D31E3B8B29
No fault code found.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 72: Door, Rear Right Labels: 1K0-959-704-GEN2.lbl
Part No: 3C9 959 704 
Component: Tuer-SG 021 2505 
Coding: 0000144
Shop #: WSC 05311 000 00000
VCID: F1C79835E8B2BB1
No fault code found.
End ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Bests
RichardSEL


----------



## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

Are all you west coast guys so sensitive? I was always told you guy are mellow.
Here on the east coast we have tougher skin and we bust balls.
If we were all the same the world would be a boring place.

As for myself Nova I have been as nice as I can. 
I listened to you thoughts.
I commended you for them.
Gave you credit where it was due.
I welcomed you to the forum.
I invited you to stay.
And still I offend you? 
Dude that’s about as nice as I can be because deep down inside I am an A$$ hole. 

You took offence to me telling you the rules of the forum. We do this out of respect for VCDS who sponsors this forum. 
It is a VCDS forum for everyone to post a VCDS auto scan at the start of a post is respect! 

As for your fix I thought it great you solved it cheaply and actually easy to do.
As I have said it the liability… Even though I agree it’s very unlikely to cause a run away throttle. I wouldn’t do it on a customer car.

Why does that get under your thin skin? 
You work at a dealer and claim to be one of the best. Great hope you stick around!
But I unlike most in this forum I have no V.W. or Audi factory training. 
Why? Because I never worked for a dealer and never would. I can’t have a boss never could because I am an A$$ hole.
You guys have no idea what it’s like to learn this stuff on your own without training!
Anybody can do it the easy way with factory training. 
Try walking a mile in my shoes it’s a totally different world and 100 times harder!

But you tell me if a car with this problem came into your dealership and you were assigned the car. 
Would you fix it with a new ECU or your way buy adding the grounds?
What would your boss make you do?
Now you would understand why your dealership would make you fix it with a new ECU but you can’t understand why I would fix it with a new ECU.

Liability is why!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why would I assume the reasonability to save a customer $200.00 it’s not my cash it’s his.
In my world that’s all it would cost for a used unit. Again I live in the non dealership world. 

Good Luck


----------



## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

stan067 said:


> You guys have no idea what it’s like to learn this stuff on your own without training!
> Anybody can do it the easy way with factory training.
> Try walking a mile in my shoes it’s a totally different world and 100 times harder!


:wave:

I'm with ya dude. I run a one-man operation, and I fix every make and model, which is definitely different than focusing on one make. Aside from some formal BMW training, I have no factory training either. And I often play punt receiver for other shops.

I'm also a much bigger ballbuster face-to-face than I am on the Internet. Jack, on the other hand, he lays it all out online  I think Jack has Nova all worked up, so he's just getting upset in general. He's just gotta understand that's how us east-coasters do I guess


----------



## Novo1.8T (Nov 28, 2006)

stan067 said:


> Are all you west coast guys so sensitive? I was always told you guy are mellow.
> Here on the east coast we have tougher skin and we bust balls.
> If we were all the same the world would be a boring place.
> 
> ...


You never offended me,sorry if I made it sound like that, sarcasm is hard to convey from a keyboard. I apoligized for posting improperly and will respect the forum rules from now on. Next time someone asks a question either unrelated to this forum or without an autoscan, I will post accordingly.

Which I thought thats what I did in the thread about the P0501 DTC, I told him that's not the scan we are looking for, where he can go to get help with getting a scan done or where he might find better help if he chooses not to use VCDS to attempt repairs. Not sure what was so wrong with that post, maybe I miss read something? Help me out so I don't make that mistake again. 

Of the 3 cars I have fixed with this repair, 2 were done at the shop on customer vehicles the third was on a friend of mines. Also, unfortunenately 2 of the 3 cars I was punt receiver for and came to me after multiple attempted repairs and were also now on therir 3rd ECM. Once I realized why the pedal sensors weren't reading properly and discovered all ECM's that were replaced now have the same faults and wouldn't work even on different vehicles when tried, I popped them open and started investigating, or as Jack would call it, used the same scifi technology he uses all the time too. I found which things connected, back traced it to the rear O2 sensor wiring, and then found the heater circuit shorted to sensor ground portion of the rear O2 sensor. This was alot easier too verify on the third car I had, it was lowered, ran over something, shredded some of the rear O2 sensor wires, they were now bare and touching, had no throttle response like the rest and 3 DTC's, one for the rear O2 sensor heater circuit and the 2 for the throttle pedal sensors G79 and G185. 

If these cars had been under warranty, ECM every time, had that not already had to buy 2 ECM's already along with who knows what else, Yes ECM. Do I feel 100% confident the repairs I made were reliable too, yes. Will I make the same repair to a car like this if I know exactly what it is that has broken or failed and what can be done to fix it, yes. As long as I am confident in my repairs I will make them and if asked again to make a repair like this by my boss, yes. I never suggested this be done to every vehicle with a similar problem I just wanted to share the interesting information I happen to stumble upon.

Agreeing with Jack, we cannot predict what will happen when ECM's burn down or go haywire, and yes even fail safes fail, and things break when they are designed not to, if they didn't we would all probably not have careers in this industry.

And yes Jack I know you are busting balls, and yes you make valid points, you also probably have so much more knowledge about ECMs when it comes to stuff like this than everyone on this forum, but no need to try and talk down to everyone though, you have your credibility and everyone else has theirs, just because someone may not sit in the forums all day long doesn't make them any less credible than you, atleast not until they've proven themselves to be. If people come to these forums trying to share their knowlecge or hopefully gain some from others and all they get is smart ass remarks or called morons, they are likely not to return, then eventually it would just be people like you in here, telling everyone that shows up that they are doing it wrong and to leave. Then you would have no ones balls to bust.


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Master Nova,

I only bust balls when protocol is violated, someone posts wrong, or misleading willful disinformation.

You did that. ( WE HAVE A WINNER! ) DING DING DING!
I then was asked by someone else to verify it. So I did on my own time.
I responded.

Then you called me a liar, incited with insinuation..... clearly, that I only point people to buy my ecu's,..... with a half ass diagnosis, with a chuckle. It was done in a round about disingenuous way.

All cards on the table, people here know where I stand. 
They clearly see you for what you are, by your actions, and you have damaged your credibility, by jumping the gun, and a poor thought process. 3 ECU's huh? That would be by definition a different type diagnosis, mentally.
I am consistent with how I treat people. Everyone gets to feel equal hate here, for failure to comply with the rules.

Respect is earned, not just extended with me, or many here.
Courtesy's are sometimes allotted for noobs, but 80% of noobs are pirates, trying to get a tech question answered, with a clone. So there is a fine line.

As for perception I never called you a Moron, but if you want, you may think that way, its okay.
What ever you want man, have it your way like a Whopper at Burger King.
Stan was the first one to call you Nova in a typo, so it stuck with me adding MASTER. hence Master Nova.

Stan is AKA Stan Lee Marvel Comics

True Story!
Sure,.... I'm in here all the time, I advertise here silly. Even before that, I did over a decade of the good Samaritan tour. Just keep in mind why I became an advertiser here. Please verify it.

It was to give free product away! The post was black holed because the advertisers were pissed.
See I wasn't making money I was just giving.

So guess what? Your rant isn't working.

You've been served. Smokem up! You need to chill out and make some more ground wire repairs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk6Bp3gi_7s


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## vortexpert. (Sep 27, 2009)

jack there is 1 thing i need to know that is driving me crazy...
how do you only have a post count of 0.91 post a day when i come in to the vcsd forum and you post a billion times a day?


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## Novo1.8T (Nov 28, 2006)

Jack, sorry for calling you a liar, that was uncalled for and rude, I sincerely apologize.


Just to clarify what I meant by those cars being on there 3rd ECM:
-Vehicle lost throttle response, it's original ECM (#1) damaged by O2 sensor. Gets diagnosed, ECM (#2) installed and then gets damaged by rear O2. More diagnosis, ECM (#3) installed and then damaged by rear O2. No throttle response and same DTCs with all 3 ECMs


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## RichardSEL (Apr 5, 2010)

RichardSEL said:


> All very fascinating...
> 
> But it would be even more useful if there were a simple "how to" on adding the fuses to the O2 circuits.
> For a simpleton like me. You guys have convinced me. I want to do it
> ...


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

Richard if your O2 wire is fine and untouched there is no need.
Most of the time its damaged wires that causes this by bad installing of an exhaust.
Kid's with there kiddy exhaust not doing it right!

You modified your Vin so I don't know the year or car you have.
I have only seen this in 1.8 turbo motors and from your scan that’s not you.

Some one else will have to tell you if you need to do it but I think you are fine.

Good Luck


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## RichardSEL (Apr 5, 2010)

stan067 said:


> Richard if your O2 wire is fine and untouched there is no need.
> Most of the time its damaged wires that causes this by bad installing of an exhaust.
> Kid's with there kiddy exhaust not doing it right!
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply Stan. I think you too posted a location, but me not being a vehicle techie
(I did ships' radio & radar) didn't quite understand where you meant. 
Havn't done a streight thru exhaust since I was a kiddie (Chevvy short block V8 x2, they did
sound good, "illegal" nowadays though ;-)
Mine's a '06 2L tFSI -- there's not much chance of VIN theft but took it out anyways realising the
possibility: WVWZZZ3CZ6E197007

Your reassurance is welcome!
RichardSEL


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

That was part of the argument.
Me and Jack said add fuse to the heater circuit for the O2.
Nova pointed out that it was power to the O2 heater and other stuff and that all the parts in the circuit were fused. And he was correct.

The O2 works best hot but takes a long time to get hot from the exhaust heat.
So they added an internal heater to the O2 to help heat it faster.
So two of the wires on a O2 sensor are for the heater circuit. 
On the 1.8 T motor power comes from the fuel pump relay so if the pump is running the O2 heater has power.
The ground to the heater is from the ECU to turn the heater on and off as needed.

Shorting the power wire to any other wires in the O2 can short anything connected to them. (The O2 wiring harness melting to the exhaust manifold because of bad install.)

That part of the argument was never settled in the post.
Now that you asked and all the infighting is done…I feel round 2 coming Ding! Ding! Who’s on the table next?

Go back read what Nova wrote he had a good point.

Again I am talking about a 1.8T not your car!
As I stated before I am not dealer trained or have the access to dealer stuff! 
I don’t know your car as well because they are just starting to come to me once they get older. It takes 5 to 6 years that’s new to me and I have to learn them. So I can’t advise you on your car.

Good Luck


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

GJP 05> have specific heater fuses dedicated.

98>2005 is the issue cars and some beetle >08


Cars early type are fused at the consumer side, yes, but...... because the track powers to many high load circuits, the fuse will never blow for the throttle driver short from OXS heater.

The true best way is to additionally fuse it with a proper spec fuse to pop when needed saving the ECU. When I do it, I add a relay like the old ones had. This worked very well in A3's


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

I'm with Novo. Fix (if soldered correctly) has no chance of runaway throttle. ME7.5 has way too many plausibility checks. 

just did the fix myself, worked great. However, I didn't slice in, I pulled the pins (4 and 6) from blue plenum connector (engine/top side) and replace with spares straight to GND. This way I can reverse it if needed. This doesn't connect GND to ECM tho. 

Novo, I now have a B1S1 Heater circuit open. Is this circuit tied into all this mess (ECM pin#5)? 

But let me add, this is a interim fix. Once you know what's wrong, and can afford it, why not replace O2 sensors, fix any harness damage, then replace ECM (for a 3rd or 4th time).


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

elRey 
I'm with Novo. Fix (if soldered correctly) has no chance of runaway throttle. ME7.5 has way too many plausibility checks. 

just did the fix myself, worked great. However, I didn't slice in, I pulled the pins (4 and 6) from blue plenum connector (engine/top side) and replace with spares straight to GND. This way I can reverse it if needed. This doesn't connect GND to ECM tho. 


Another, very foolish post. 

Reverse what? To ground LOL. Solder? I don't believe he mentioned solder either. 

I think we established that this is not an approved repair procedure. 
That the ecu damage inside cant be determined as to what could happen in certain instances based on corrosion or what actually was damaged. 

If items are grounded to perform as never in fault, then indeed you could be creating the situation for the safety run away, to be bypassed to red-line. 

I did some more testing on this by the way, on other controllers and found another ecu which could run away to shut down. That's why a damage glitch is never to be trusted to do a bypass repair such as this. 

Fortunately unlike Toyota,...... when you step on the brake, Bosch put in an additional over ride for things like a floor mat, or bear can. 

3rd and 4th time replacement of an ecu is diagnosis of a different type.


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

reverse it, meaning revert to stock. i didnt splice into stock wiring harness. I added spare pins. so I pull out what i added without cutting any wires.


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

So even worse then.  Are you kidding me? 

Do you have any idea how unsafe this is to do? 

Even Master Nova knows how to make a connection. Hell he says clearly don't use scotch locks because he knows how unreliable they are. 

And thats using a fastener.


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

i dont think i'm clearly conveying what i did. nor did i mention using scotch locks. and i've lost interests in putting any more effort into this thread other than to reiterate 'spare pins'. sorry


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

I never said you used scotch locks, merely showed the importance of making good connections, with a clear reference from the Master himself. 

Which you didn't do, clearly.....! within an industry standard you described, and you have in-sighted people to commence with as if its acceptable. 

IT IS NOT! IT IS UNSAFE! IT IS CLEAR HERE! UNSAFE! WARNING! 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=M6n1OcztL7s&feature=fvwp 

If you agree with Master Nova, have a reason for explaining why you agree, I would love, and I'm sure,...... everyone else,... would really appreciate being enlightened! 

GO ON!


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## Novo1.8T (Nov 28, 2006)

elRey said:


> I'm with Novo. Fix (if soldered correctly) has no chance of runaway throttle. ME7.5 has way too many plausibility checks.
> 
> just did the fix myself, worked great. However, I didn't slice in, I pulled the pins (4 and 6) from blue plenum connector (engine/top side) and replace with spares straight to GND. This way I can reverse it if needed. This doesn't connect GND to ECM tho.
> 
> ...


 I understand exactly what you did to make this repair and it's perfectly safe, I actually did the same thing the other day to verify this repair would also work on a 2002 AFP 12v VR6. The wires at pins 4 and 6 at the 10 pin connector in the plenum chamber area were grey with red and grey with blue I presume? 

The only reason I left my wires connected to the ECM was so the Rear O2 Sensor Ground circuit, that goes to PIN 68 at the ECM, would now also have a good connection to ground. Technically you could remove that wire from the ECM (at PIN 68) and run it direct to ground from the O2 sensor, thus eliminating the failed internal ECM circuit all together. This would also allow the already factory installed 10 amp fuse (at location S243 on all the vehicles I've investigated) that supplies the power to the rear O2 sensor heater circuit and many other things, to properly protect the circuits and blow, instead of destroying the ECM's internal circuit that was not designed to handle the amount of amperage like this and will become damaged before the amperage exceeds the 10 amp rating of the fuse. Also, if you put this wire from PIN 68 at the ECM directly to ground you wouldn't need to install any unneccesary extra fuses or relays anywhere. 

Yes you could continue to replace the ECM but fuses and ground wires are cheaper, though I will say it again, if any of this conversation doesn't make sense to you, or if you don't feel comfortable or confident making repairs such as these, please don't, take it to a professional and pay them to repair your vehicle.:thumbup: 


elRey, 
As for the B1S1 Heater Circuit DTC, it most likely a coincidence, as far as I know these circuits are in no way connected, but I will do some researching if I have some free time. 


Also, I found what circuit is connected at PIN 50 of the ECM, on some vehicles it is the ground circuit for the Power Steering Pressure Switch (F88). So it's not a super important input to the ECM, but if it's not working properly it could effect engine idle if you are pulling off too many sweet parking lot manuevers. :beer::beer:


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

*WARNING!* 


Again, to say this is perfectly safe is reckless. 

IT IS NOT SAFE, HAS NOT BEEN AN APPROVED REPAIR BY THE OEM, OR REGISTERED WITH DOT/NTSB. 

It still doesn't factor in the possibility of damage to the board, or corrosion setting in, causing an implausible condition. 

WARNING! UNSAFE! WARNING! UNSAFE! 
Run away to red-line is possible under certain conditions! VERIFIED! 
Sporadic behavior has also been documented!


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

[email protected] Parts said:


> Run away to red-line is possible under certain conditions! VERIFIED!


 
This would be great information. Please share video!


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

Novo, have you identified where on the circuit board the failure is happening? Is it repairable?


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

I have already taken the time to verify this more then two times. 

I'm not taking the time to make a stupid video, showing a car going to the rev limit. 

I will point out again! 

It is UNSAFE! 
To say it is perfectly safe is, *disingenuous.* 

UNAPPROVED by OEM/BOSCH, virtually any industry standard, or text book. 

This is not VCDS related at this point. 

I request that the thread be locked. 
There is no place for RIG repairs in this forum which could hurt someone potentially. 

You will notice that when it comes to safety devices such as Airbag, TPMS, ABS butcher module repairs, etc, in the VCDS forum they are ejected for the moral high road for a reason. 

I think the shear scope of this thread has liable all over it, it should be black holed. 

How are you going to feel, when someone dies because they followed guidance here, and that guidance was yours? At this point, it isn't just about being right, Its about doing the right thing. 

Oh Gozer!


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

yet replacing/cutting the front rebar for the sake of an intercooler is forum accepted. 

Please explain in detail what you did to verify run-away condition. How did you obverse the run-away condition? How did you measure the inputs and outputs? Was there anyone with you during to confirm? 

Until an independent party can confirm your same results I would just add that anyone consider doing this understand stated warnings and thoroughly test fix for any weird behavior BEFORE releasing car. And do this at your own risk! There. 

Jack, what is your opinion on grounding the two throttle pedal GND pins on a perfectly good ECU? Would that produce any unpredictable behavior, reduce safety?


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

_elRey 
yet replacing/cutting the front rebar for the sake of an intercooler is forum accepted._ 

Not in the VCDS forum it isn't. 

I'm done with this thread other then saying Warning UNSAFE! 

I don't like the level of inconsistent statements in this thread. 
How things were just thrown out there from the beginning, of wrong pins referenced, the best of the best, its safe, etc 

If your gonna post something like this, it should be well thought out. Especially as a professional in the industry. Its one thing to try and help people save some coin. It is another to potentially induce a death or injury. 

Sporadic conditions are just that, intermittent. :thumbdown: 
I believe I gave credit to the person finding this idea. Ideas, experiments are king, no doubt! 
I also exposed on my own time, inconsistent posts and a very dangerous one. 

Please show where I have been inconsistent in regards to, this post? 
I don't believe I need to prove anything to you or anyone, the thread speaks for itself. 

Good day sir!


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

[email protected] Parts said:


> You will notice that when it comes to safety devices such as Airbag, TPMS, ABS butcher module repairs, etc, *in the VCDS forum* they are ejected for the moral high road for a reason.





elRey said:


> yet replacing/cutting the front rebar for the sake of an intercooler is forum accepted.





[email protected] Parts said:


> Not in the VCDS forum it isn't.


 I'm sorry. You're completely right. Truthfully I didn't know we were in the VCSD forum. I got here via a search. Good thing we are not suggesting using VCDS to actually perform this fix. 




[email protected] Parts said:


> Good day sir!


 And to you sir.


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## Anony00GT (Mar 6, 2002)

elRey said:


> Please explain in detail what you did to verify run-away condition. How did you obverse the run-away condition? How did you measure the inputs and outputs? Was there anyone with you during to confirm?


 Read the whole thread. Jack already stated what he did. 




[email protected] Parts said:


> I request that the thread be locked.
> There is no place for RIG repairs in this forum which could hurt someone potentially.
> 
> You will notice that when it comes to safety devices such as Airbag, TPMS, ABS butcher module repairs, etc, in the VCDS forum they are ejected for the moral high road for a reason.
> ...


 I agree.


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

Anony00GT said:


> Read the whole thread. Jack already stated what he did.


 .... 



[email protected] Parts said:


> Verified several controllers, some will work, some will not. Some will do crazy things like sporadic throttle and one did in fact, RUN AWAY! where I had to shut the key off.
> 
> Note:
> It ran away after performing a valid ADP and no trouble codes displayed and that scares me.
> ...





[email protected] Parts said:


> The car which was in question here was an AWP 1.8T which is ME7.5II with IMMO3.





[email protected] Parts said:


> That ecu went right to red line, hit the limiter before I got to the key.


 :thumbup:


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## Novo1.8T (Nov 28, 2006)

elRey said:


> Novo, have you identified where on the circuit board the failure is happening? Is it repairable?


 It's a fairly simple circuit once you open up the ECM and trace back from the pins. I'm sure it could be repaired by someone that is capable of this kind of handy work. I personally don't have the steady hands or soldering skills to pull something like this off so I won't even attempt repairing the circuit board myself. 



elRey said:


> This would be great information. Please share video!


 I too would love to see a video of someone performing repairs or making modifications incorrectly. 



[email protected] Parts said:


> I have already taken the time to verify this more then two times.
> 
> I'm not taking the time to make a stupid video, showing a car going to the rev limit.
> 
> ...


 The repair I suggested is no more UNSAFE or LIABLE than driving your car everyday normally. To say that this repair will cause runaway throttle or increased possibility of ECM failure is like saying you can predict lightening strikes. 



[email protected] Parts said:


> How are you going to feel, when someone dies because they followed guidance here, and that guidance was yours? At this point, it isn't just about being right, Its about doing the right thing.


 This is like you are saying anyone that read something online and then tried to do it themselves is destined to fail. So I guess the person that posts online "how to replace your brakes by yourself" should feel responsible if someone reads their post, replaces their brakes, but than forgets to tighten the lugnuts and tires go flying off while they are cruising down the highway which then causes multiple accidents and deathes. They probably shouldn't have been doing repairs themselves anyway. So, like I said before, if you are unsure or not confident in the repairs you make or want to attempt on something, don't do them, have a professional do them. 

I know exactly 100% what this repair is doing, so I will do it again if needed. 

Yes, let's please lock this thread so Jack doesn't have to overly misuse the word disingenuous any more. :thumbup:


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## alice1212 (May 11, 2012)

Jack's unit will cost more but with some paper work to prove you are the owner of the car. I believe Jack's will be plug and play. No dealer or towing.:laugh:


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Master Nova, 

You are in fact being, *disingenuous.* There, I said it again  

You have been, throughout the thread, that is clear to anyone. 
No videos for you guys. NOPE! 

To say it is perfectly safe, then lack the skills to actually perform the repair proper, or take into account that not all ECU's will fail the same, is just crazy. 

When the board pops it can corrode and then form a bridge. 

You cant tell me, with all your experience in the industry, you haven't seen corrosion disrupt, or complete a circuit. If not then you are not as experienced with what you say. 
Oh!..... you'd be being disingenuous again  

Lets consider some additional background. 

GJBP, A4, 6, 8, etc, all leak water inside, or in the rain gutter due to drain issue, FACT. TSB's, recalls and actions are there to back up what I say. The ECU's are in these critical areas to become hygroscopic. 

Has anyone seen a car not shut down, because terminal 15 was powered from a back feed? 

I have, it wont shut down! 

No where in your thread are you giving instructions, on how to repair the board, perform an inspection, reseal the board, with a insulation spray after repaired. Nope you add ground wires, then run your mouth like your the best of the best, while saying its safe. 

HACK HACK HACK I'm sorry, I had to cough. 

If you were to take it apart, repair it right, then you wouldn't need your ground wire mod now would you? 

I will say it again WARNING! UNSAFE! 

Its not good for your health to HATE! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHFViUFTb6k 

Good Day! 


Oh and Gozer please Lock this thread.


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## Novo1.8T (Nov 28, 2006)

Wait, are you arguing about every ECM failure being related? I'm still talking about one that is related to this thread. 

LOCK IT UP


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

*:heart:*:heart:


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

Okay guy’s I tried to stay out of this for the past week but can’t any longer. 

Nova great find and I give you a lot of credit for going this deep. 

Jack I say your right and I’d never do this on a customer car. Because of the liability involved. 

I don’t agree the thread should be closed. 
We can’t police the world or protect people from themselves. 
Way too many rules in this world and you have to let the free people decide what is best for them. You live and learn in this world… 

Nova most people are going to perform this repair because they are cheap in nature. So you will win the argument on that point. I know 80% of the people will go with your fix so the stats will be on your side. 

Jack I can’t argue with your point either. The right fix is a new or used ECU and the safest. I don’t see why someone would take the chance for $200.00 used ECU. But you know people they are cheap by nature. You have made your point clear and you by no way are responsible if someone get’s hurt. You’ve warned them repeatedly! Nothing more you can do then that. 

So let’s stop the argument everyone’s point has been made. Let people decide for themselves what they should and shouldn’t do it’s their lives. That’s what freedom is all about. 

Let the thread live and everybody is responsible for themselves and the decisions they make. 

Good Luck


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Hey Stan Lee Marvel Comics,  

I agree we can not police the world. It was a great idea to try and test. 

I believe as professionals in the industry, licensed to do what we do in the automotive industry, at least some of us here. 

We have a responsibility to the public for certain aspects, such as when the public look to us for general advice. 

When making statements, "This is perfectly safe" and "They are the best in the industry" 

I call this moral hazard, vicarious liability, clear misdirected guidance, with no factual, or sanctioned approved authority. This could in my professional opinion, mislead someone into making a very bad *UNSAFE* decision. 

Now me kidding around and being a wise ass, that's a whole other stupid thing I do. 

Hold on I have to say that word again. DISINGENUOUS! 

:heart::heart::heart::heart::heart::heart:


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

I understand totally. 

Locking the thread would serve no purpose. 
That would just stop comments to the thread. 
You could still search it as elRay did and the how to do is there. You just couldn’t comment. 
If some one has a problem with the fix like a run away throttle, I’d like them to be able to tell us. 
It’s going to get done enough that there will be a lot of Ginny pigs! 

The only true fix would be to delete the thread to stop it. That is policing. I do not agree! 
That defeats the whole purpose of the World Wide Web. Freedom of information to all! 

I hate rules the world need morals not rules! 
Just do the right thing’s, it’s easy! 

Good Luck


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## jacampb2 (Jul 23, 2009)

I know this thread is more than a year old, but I am having the same issues and just finished reading it in it's entirety. All I have to say is that this past week I wrecked my '01 jetta, $365 ticket because it was in construction zone, I bought a repo '02 jetta which had a dead battery but was supposed to be fine for $1500. On top of this I lost my renter in my piece of crap house that I couldn't get rid of after the market crash so needless to day a $200 ECM is not an option right now. 

The repo jetta turns out to have this issue, I have been pulling my hair out all day trying to find the issue. EPC system works perfect with KOEO, but as soon as it's running the ECM throws codes for accelerator position out of range high. 

I will not hesitate to preform Novo's fix. I have a lot of background in EE and as the circuit is described I cannot see any reason that there would be anymore potential cause for concern than a unmodified circuit. I understand where Jack and some of you are coming from, why you wouldn't do it for a customer, but frankly that applies to nearly any DIY fix that you can find on the internet. Jack is right, things can fail in unpredictable ways. Carbon tracks from a blow out on a PCB can indeed conduct to various other nodes that were never intended. The chance of this actually causing WOT... I can't say. Apparently two in a undetermined test group.

I will say that the way Jack has behaved himself is reprehensible for a vendor here, no mater how highly he thinks of himself, or how much of his time he has graciously donated to the forum. I for one will never do business with a person who behaves in this manner. Granted the argument went both directions, but from my perspective Jack came out of the gate swinging. 

Oh well, no matter, just my $.02 and we are all entitled to that. I will write back and say what happens with the repo jetta... unless of course I got one of those which defies the odds, then I try to upload from the other side.

Take care, 
Jason


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Your DAM right!

I do come out swinging when I verify something to be unsafe, in the masses best interest for it to be clear......... it is not perfectly safe! Especially when some schmuck says it is.

That is not cool.

I don't care if one person doesn't do business with me for speaking my mind here.
What?,.... because I was considering the consequences safety of others and myself.

Apparently you never found out why I became a banner advertiser sir.

FACT!
It was to give stuff away that other venders in vortex black holed.
That's right free!
For Veterans, DAV and active service personnel no doubt too.
Unfortunately it takes money to be an advertiser. 
So as you can see, I have put my money where my big mouth is.

While it maybe rare that the car can exhibit full throttle from this mod,....... it can happen.
All it takes is the correct conditions of humidity with the burned trace.


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

Some how I knew a year ago that this topic would come back..... Everybody looks for a cheap fix!

Look it's not safe! Why does VAG put a EPC (Electronic pedal control) light in the dash? I would have to say because it's very important and totally unsafe to modify in any way. Dude they gave it it's own warning light. What does that tell you? It was very costly for VAG to install in millions of cars, did they do that because they like to spend money on unimportant stuff?

What I want to know is after this rigging of the EPC and driving for a year or so are you going to junk the car when when the economy turns around and you are done with it? Hell no you will sell it to some poor unsuspecting person. What about him or the millions of other that have to drive the same roads as you or him?

You, Nova and and other say you know your stuff and have some intelligence's. I say your all book smart but don't have an oz. of common sense. I know Nova has some talent just to figuring out this rig job so by no means is he stupid. But again where is the common sense......

I say collage students should be required to take a course in common sense! Half of them graduate with out an oz. of it!

Next is personality: 
Anyone who spends time in this forum knows Jack is the Man! 
He's very dedicated to the forum. He does more to help people then Ross Tech does!
He puts his money where his mouth is, by being a banner advertiser.
I have to say he is the most knowledgeable person in the forum.
He dots his I's and crosses his T's and does everything by the book and does it right!

He's also one of the biggest "A" holes I know! No doubt about it! But he's proud of it!
The more you call him one, you are just feeding him complements! He love's that stuff!
You read this whole post and it's long... You got two things from it and added your $0.02. One your gonna do the rig job and two Jack is an "A" hole. And you had to comment on both. 
Jack wins! He got your attention and negative attention is still attention.

I have said this before and I'll say it again.
This is not a personality test. This an VAG-Com Diagnostic Forum. As long as he's king on that point what different does it make. All I want is to know how to solve VAG problems.

As for you would never do business with Jack. Your broke in your own words I ready don't think he wants your business for that point alone. 

One last point... I haven't see Nova here in over a year. Jack is here everyday.


Good Luck


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

To clarify... the 'fix' is not what's unsafe. It's continuing to use the damaged ECU that has the *small* possibility to 'jump carbon traces' from a fried circuit. Semantics I know, but there is a difference. 

In other words, you could perform the same procedure on an undamaged car and not be in any more danger from a WOT situation than before.


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

_



elRey 


To clarify... the 'fix' is not what's unsafe. It's continuing to use the damaged ECU that has the small possibility to 'jump carbon traces' from a fried circuit. Semantics I know, but there is a difference. 

In other words, you could perform the same procedure on an undamaged car and not be in any more danger from a WOT situation than before.

Click to expand...

_






*That is absolutely incorrect sir *

This is a very bold ignorant statement to make, in such a controversial thread for safety concerns.
Its just advice right? 
Posts here should be well thought out before posting something that could lead people to hurt themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ_2Mb79T_U

Now I am a jerk and a wise-ass but I don't want anyone hurt.

If you did the mod/hack as you state, then said condition was to happen due to a short, you indeed could be inducing an unintended future issue of unintended redline or other unsafe condition.


The fix isn't a fix..... Its a hack!..... it is indeed with consequences of being UNSAFE!

Please don't be reckless to the mASSes.



Thanks Stan 

Yes negative attention is still attention!


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

Like I said 'an undamaged ECU'. I made a very specific statement about a very specific situation. You added an addition situation to my statement, thus changing it.

I clearly covered the situation you are referring to in my second sentence. edit, well not so clearly. I should have stated damaged ECU + fix instead of just ecu. Sorry.


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

_



Like I said 'an undamaged ECU'. I made a very specific statement about a very specific situation. You added an addition situation to my statement, thus changing it.

I clearly covered the situation you are referring to in my second sentence. edit, well not so clearly. I should have stated damaged ECU + fix instead of just ecu. Sorry. 


Last edited by elRey; Today at 10:55 AM.

Click to expand...

_








Hence why the mod shouldn't be done since the problem only really can be had when the hand-shake of the two added grounds are made which are NOT OEM!

Since adding a fuse here won't help prevent it, because the POT's need both sweeps to commence with throttle control its just UNSAFE.

Please consider the consequences everyone.

Thank you!


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

[email protected] Parts said:


> *That is absolutely incorrect sir *
> 
> This is a very bold ignorant statement to make, in such a controversial thread for safety concerns.
> Its just advice right?
> ...


:thumbup:


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

:heart::heart:


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## vwtuner67 (Jan 2, 2010)

*Epc & esp lights on because o2 rear sensor wires touched together*

I had read all this post ago and now I am writting you guys because I need some help, if that is possible, what about is going wrong with my car.

My GTI 1.8T 2005, I was installing an aftermarket DP, so the guy who was doing the job, touched together the rear O2 sensor wires and then, the lights came on, and the gas pedal did not response. The O2 sensor got damage, so I replaced it inmediatly for a new OEM one(mjm autohaus). Then, I started up the engine, and was not throttle response. ECP, ESP came on. The VCDS said was the pedal accelerator sensor was damaged. A tech man said to me the ECU was fried. I replaced the ECU, and the engine start good, cleared the fault codes and ran just fine. After a week, the lights came on.

1. 17972 - Throttle Actuator (J338): Under-Voltage
2. 1.2.3 Cylinders under misfire. Lot fuel smelling

When I cleared the codes, the car ran for a week good and then, the problem came back. So the autoparts dealer gave me a new ECU, Installed and good, ran for almost 2 months pretty cool. Then, the problem came back. The same fault codes.

So I checked the Thorttle Body voltage(pins), a new battery, new spark plugs, the batery and alternator ground wires, the fuel pump, the voltage regulator and....20 days after....the probles came again. TB alignment also few times

So I ordered from partstrain a new Bosch Throttle body. ran fine, so after 2 weeks....the problem came back.

I unpluged the gas pedal to check the conector and wires, visual inspection only, then Installed the pedal and plug, cleared the same fault codes, TB alignement and ran FOR ALMOST 4 MONTHS. SO, 10 days ago, the problem came back, with the same problem and same fault codes.
17972 - Throttle Actuator (J338): Under-Voltage
2. 1.2.3 Cylinders under misfire..and the fuel was behind ...you can smeel it a lot.

So I decided to install another same part number gas pedal sensor. Ran well for a week, and now I have the problem back. I am getting nuts with this. When the lights turns on (ECP, ESP) there is not throttle response, just a little, the engine goes to limp mode, it runs about 2000 rpms, and it starts misfiring. In idle, the rpms goes to 2000 and goes down to 500 rpm. I dont know what else to do or what else to replaced...so I was wondering if you can give me a hand with this, I will be thankfully with you. When I turn off the engne for a little while, the engine starts perfect with Out any faul or light on. i NEED SOME HELP HERE PLIZZZ


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Please post your own auto-scan as I requested via email, where you already solicited my help sir.


_Sergio,



Protocols must be followed first.



Do you have a valid auto-scan with VCDS or a genuine VAS dealer tool?

Please provide one to be authenticated or post a valid thread in the VCDS forum.



Do you have a valid repair manual with accurate wire diagrams?



Which OXS sensor was changed front/back both?

Where factory parts used?



How did you make repairs to your damaged wire harness at OXS location from your forum post I see?



Answer all the questions completely please and supply data requested or don't email me.

_ 

You didn't answer these questions.
Then we can commence.

Thank you.


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## vwtuner67 (Jan 2, 2010)

[email protected] Parts said:


> Please post your own auto-scan as I requested via email, where you already solicited my help sir.
> 
> 
> _Sergio,
> ...


 Jack,
Thats exactly what I will do, but the problem is the car is runing good with out fault codes on this days.They appear in any moment so until there, I can not do a auto scan to send them you back. Thats why I am asking some help, because the car runs good for days, and when you are not expecting nothing wrong, the problem come back.. The fault codes I had posted, where the last week and when you turn off the engine and then start it up, the problem fly...its a pain in ...:banghead:
Thanks


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

Sergio,

You still didn't answer the questions.

You can do an auto-scan to authenticate you're using a valid VCDS tool regardless of no codes displayed now.

Here is a link on how.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCBt6d42-Fc

Until then we wont help you.

Please just do the auto-scan and lets commence.

Thank you


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## vwtuner67 (Jan 2, 2010)

[email protected] Parts said:


> Sergio,
> 
> You still didn't answer the questions.
> 
> ...


 Jack many thanks..So sorry for the misunderstanding. I did not know I can post an auto scan with out fault codes....then I now, tomorrow I will be doing an autoscan and post it inmediatly. So sorry.
Thanks:thumbup:


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

Posting an auto scan will tell us you are legit. With or without codes. 
This is a VCDS sponsored forum no help for pirate's.
That's why auto scan is needed.


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## stan067 (Feb 25, 2010)

Elray
If the ECU is changed and problem is fixed by replacing the ECU. Why then would you do the fix?
Are you trying to prevent the problem on a good ECU?
The O2's cause the problem not the pedal. 
So I don't see why you would do this fix unless you are trying to rig the pedal.
Fusing the O2's like Jack say's is the prevention.

At least that's what I get understand. But I am no Jack or Nova.

Good Luck


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

stan067 said:


> Elray
> If the ECU is changed and problem is fixed by replacing the ECU. Why then would you do the fix?
> Are you trying to prevent the problem on a good ECU?
> The O2's cause the problem not the pedal.
> ...


The fix is an *alternative* to replacing the ECU.


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

_



The fix is an alternative to replacing the ECU.

Click to expand...

_Its not a fix. Its a hack that may function sometimes and it should be warned unsafe.

*It should be stated not without potential safety consequences, risk or death.*

Personally I amazed no action has been taken by DOT or NTSB for correction by means of safety recall.


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

[email protected] Parts said:


> Its a hack that *may function sometimes* and it should be warned unsafe.


A little understating are we?


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

_



A little understating are we?

Click to expand...

_
Nope not at all.....:facepalm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIY41LrvMFQ

You can be pestilent, starve, burn in war and live, beware of death pony.

You can think what ever you want as long as its clearly understood that it could cause a safety issue causing death, since the safety check has been corrupted for the EPC with aforementioned NON OEM hack.

I think caution for someone's safety, overrides a stupid hack.

Testing and theories are great as long as they are controlled and even then not without consequences.

I would love to hear real arguments as to why I am wrong vs. the snippet comments.
Please commence.


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

Why you are wrong:

- The fix works to get car running again after O2 wiring short takes out pedal ground 100% of the time, NOT 'may function sometimes'.

- chance of WOT safety issue you scream about happening, minute to none. Only cases of it occurring were only witnessed by a party who sell expensive replacement/preventive ECUs. 

I challenge you to assign a percentage to chance of WOT issue occurring on 'fixed' cars. Keep in mind, the only way it would happen is by the burned carbon tracks you mention AND those tracks supplying exact amount of current to TWO different circuits for the ECU to see plausible signals from both pedal sensors AND no other implausible signals thru any other circuits the ECU uses to verify pedal/throttle control. 

So, you first have to 
-assign percentage chance of short producing viable carbon tracks that carry current
-assign percentage chance of those track affecting BOTH sensor circuits
-assign percentage of exact currents jump those tracks on BOTH sensor circuit keeping in mind they use different current values.
-assign percentage chance all the other NUMEROUS redundancy/plausibility functions in the ECU code are disabled or do not catch anything weird.

And beyond assigning a percentage chance, prove it *independently*. Commence excuses why you won't.


edit for misspellings


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

_



elRey 


Why you are wrong:

- The fix works to get car running again after O2 wiring short takes out pedal ground 100% of the time, NOT 'may function sometimes'.

- change of WOT safety issue you scream about happening, minute to none. Only cases of it occurring were only witnessed by a party who sell expensive replacement/preventive ECUs. 

I challenge you to assign a percentage to chance of WOT issue occurring on 'fixed' cars. Keep in mind, the only way it would happen is by the burned carbon tracks you mention AND those tracks supplying exact amount of current to TWO different circuits for the ECU to see plausible signals from both pedal sensors AND no other implausible signals thru any other circuits the ECU uses to verify pedal/throttle control. 

So, you first have to 
-assign percentage chance of short producing viable carbon tracks that carry current
-assign percentage chance of those track affecting BOTH sensor circuits
-assign percentage of exact currents jump those tracks on BOTH sensor circuit keeping in mind they use different current values.
-assign percentage chance all the other NUMEROUS redundancy/plausibility functions in the ECU code are disabled or do not catch anything weird.

And beyond assigning a percentage chance, prove it independently. Commence excuses why you won't.

Click to expand...

_
This isn't a very good argument to say something works 100% of the time.
Especially when the car fails to begin with by design flaw.
That is completely not true for this condition and you know it, just trying to bate me.
It worked

I did try several as I said, some worked..... some did not at all, or some with a crappy pedal and two which went to redline upon start up. Like I said it depends on condition inside ecu for burn down.

I am not going to take the time to re-live this, for something I already verified.
I am not going to create theories or statistics just for the sake of doing what you request.

The fact that we sell ecu's has nothing to do with this from my side, but that is your opinion you can think what you want.

If the hack was acceptable then why doesn't Bosch or the OEM endorse it?
Show me a TSB or service action employing it.

You have already assigned an implausible # considering things don't always qualify 100% of the time,........ like a guy who never makes mistakes. :banghead:

I will request someone third party review what I have found and be back with an opinion.


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

[email protected] Parts said:


> This isn't a very good argument to say something works 100% of the time.
> *Especially when the car fails to begin with by design flaw*.


Not sure I follow the bold statement. The Bosch ECU has a design flaw?





[email protected] Parts said:


> That is completely not true for this condition and you know it, just trying to bate me.
> It worked
> 
> I did try several as I said, some worked..... some did not at all, or some with a crappy pedal and two which went to redline upon start up. Like I said it depends on condition inside ecu for burn down.


Again, only witnessed by you. Dismissed, unless verified by independent party.



elRey said:


> Commence excuses why you won't.





[email protected] Parts said:


> I am not going to take the time to re-live this, for something I already verified.
> I am not going to create theories or statistics just for the sake of doing what you request.


Thank you for living up to my expectations :beer:



[email protected] Parts said:


> The fact that we sell ecu's has nothing to do with this from my side, but that is your opinion you can think what you want.


Says every party with skin in the game, any game, no matter who or what.



[email protected] Parts said:


> If the hack was acceptable then why doesn't Bosch or the OEM endorse it?
> Show me a TSB or service action employing it.


Did i miss where anyone suggested this was an OEM endorsed fix? How many other fixes for other problems are found on the board and praised that are not OEM endorsed? Countless. So, I don't see your point here.



[email protected] Parts said:


> You have already assigned an implausible # considering things don't always qualify 100% of the time,........ like a guy who never makes mistakes. :banghead:


It's finally nice to see you banging your head b/c of someone else instead of the other way around. :thumbup:



[email protected] Parts said:


> I will request someone third party review what I have found and be back with an opinion.


I can't wait for the under the table hang shake, third party review. Can't wait. I said *independent*, not just third party. Reminds me of all those positive, third party studies of food and drug products paid for by companies making the products.

Bravo Jack.


I do have to add that your last reply was one of your more rational and focused responses lacking all to common injection of extraneous variables/situations. :thumbup: (no sarcasm)


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## [email protected] Parts (Nov 27, 2006)

_



Not sure I follow the bold statement. The Bosch ECU has a design flaw?

Click to expand...

_
That's to bad, it absolutely does have a flaw in design, and fused circuit placement.


_



Again, only witnessed by you. Dismissed, unless verified by independent party.

Click to expand...

_Working on it.

Thank you, thank you, I will take that bow.

Why would I do work all over again unless there was something to prove?

Oh sorry,..... I was banging my head because I think you're crazy.

To me you are only hurting any credibility you might have.
Grasping edgy repairs, while spouting off that they work 100% of the time. 
Clearly...... when you know they don't.

You only show reckless poor judgment when writing these things.
So when someone gets hurt please send them flowers with a link to this thread.:facepalm:

I think you missed the point and should re-think your theory.

_



I can't wait for the under the table hang shake, third party review. Can't wait. I said independent, not just third party. Reminds me of all those positive, third party studies of food and drug products paid for by companies making the products.

Click to expand...

_That one is just lame,....... what ever!....... do what you want!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZLVi4v7lSM

I see no valuable argument, just horse apples.

Cheers!


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