# WHICH BELT IS BETTER --- GATES Racing OR NEW RAI KEVLAR???



## The Dub Man (May 25, 2010)

ok trying to compare , which belt is better material and stronger, 

1 - IS IT the new kevlar RAI timing belt 

or 

2- The o.g. GATES RACING TIMING BELT??? 



which will my 20v BT get ??? :thumbup:


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

The Dub Man said:


> *o.g. * GATES RACING TIMING BELT???


:laugh:
:thumbup:


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## The Dub Man (May 25, 2010)

whats the gates 1.8t 20v timing belt part number?


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## Three3Se7en (Jul 2, 2007)

Still have to change them at the same interval. So the cheaper route.


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## 1.8t67 (Dec 7, 2008)

click sig.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

Three3Se7en said:


> Still have to change them at the same interval. So the cheaper route.


disagree with this entirely, if you switch to a manual tensioner you need to monitor your tension every 10k or so but by no means is a change required at 60K for that setup.


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## The Dub Man (May 25, 2010)

im not sure about that, from what i know like gates especially u dont have to change like oem b.c it doesnt stretch like oem, still have to change after like 100k + from


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## The Dub Man (May 25, 2010)

anyone else on this issue????


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## mescaline (Jul 15, 2005)

http://discountfleetsupply.com/gatt306rb.html


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## iae21 (Feb 8, 2002)

I heard about some Kevlar belts that were breaking....can anyone confirm if this is true?


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## zerb (Mar 18, 2005)

the 034 ones toasted a few motors from what i heard.


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## schwartzmagic (Apr 29, 2007)

Maybe talk to both RAI and INA and see who does a better job of convincing you theirs is better :laugh:


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## The Dub Man (May 25, 2010)

thats what it seems like, i had seen a argument with INA and RAI about the belts, i need some people that have BT cars with this decision made , remember im going converting from hydro. to MT ..


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

They haven't been out long enough to give concrete evidence. I will say that RAI's clearly reselling a belt made elsewhere so who knows what you're getting and Gates has a long track record for selling pretty tough belts. I had an 034 belt that developed problems and it was a huge pita to get resolved not to mention the fact I could've kissed my valves buhbye if it broke. I'd go Gates before anything else at the market right now.


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## tractorsosa (Aug 19, 2009)

i just did mine and use a mt kit from ie with a regular belt, and works good for me, i did have both belts in my hand the rai and the oe and did not see any big diference so i went the oe way but upgrade my tensioner kit only but the only think i notice is that the mt kit from ie push ur belt to the back of the cam instead the hydraulic bring it to the front , and the mt kit makes a funny line in the middle of the belt due to a groove in the 16v roller, but works good with the oe rai belt is too expensive and i dont think is worth but that is personal opinion


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## zerb (Mar 18, 2005)

Gates belt allday.


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## LightSwitch (May 9, 2008)

just received my gates belt today. quality is topnotch! i would assume the RAI belt is just as nice.


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## simon-says (Oct 21, 2007)

So you got one huh. From who?


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## [email protected] (Nov 3, 2008)

I wanted to chime in and let you guys know about our kevlar belt solution. Our belt is made by Gates rubber company usa, and uses the same gp2 jacket that the gates racing unit uses. It also has a kevlar weave integrated for additional strength and better tooth contact, or pressure distribution. Also our belt is made by gates usa, we pay a premium for this as well. We have a little under 500 units on the market currently and no failures reported due to our belt. Gates makes the "tubes" to the specifications we chose, which specifies chemical resistance, heat tolerance, load tolerance, and stretch tolerance. Another company that i would rather keep internal does the cutting and allows us to purchase these units. The kevlar weave was chosen because it has the lowest stretch tolerance of any other cost effective solution. Also we confidently believe in the use of our belt, the IE manual tensioner and dowel pin, you can have true bullet proof timing. Also, using stronger materials does not void you of doing visual inspections, this should still be done as often as possible. Proper install goes a long way as well, the tooth count across components should be uniform. 

Last i want to explain why we did these belts. Our shop warranties our work and parts for a year minimum (depending on what parts or labor). We lost several thousand dollars when a oem replacement belt we installed failed after 8 months of operation. These were made so we can maintain the warranty and piece of mind. We also have internal diagnostic reports showing belt failure is the leading cause of timing failures, at least in our shop. Audi also acknowledges this now because of a class action lawsuit filed against them regarding the Audi TT 225. These higher horsepower 1.8t variants have proven the belt cannot hold up to high performance applications. In the lawsuit, recall, and TSB the belt was named the culprit. This belt is the same used on most 1.8ts. We also tested our belts for many, many miles and months before we released it. While this upgrade may not be for everyone, it does bring a premium option to the market for those that prefer premium components. Thanks


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## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

I have seen failed tensioners on many 1.8t engines, but they were all the old style aeb, and some early awm engines with the piston and ball socket style. i have never seen a failed tensioner of the new hydraulic unit with pin. I always see the belts snap or shred due to people going a long time on an original belt. I see that the OE conti belts are usually cracked bad around 70-80,000 miles. At that time , 80-90,000 I see cars with broken timing belts. 

That being said, conti has a new "long life" belt that is supposed to last 100k. Will it, I dont know. Either way I want to put on a RAI kit on my own gli when I get it next week. 
:thumbup:


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## Mike Pauciullo (Jan 8, 2009)

http://www.discountfleetsupply.com/gatt306rb.html 

gates all day


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## jbutlertelecom (Aug 12, 2009)

*Rai*

I am currently running the Rai kevlar belt. I have about 25k on it so far and just did a 25k inspection while I was fixing general items like injector seals (lower) and new Stern motor mounts (to go with the Stern transmission mounts I put on a couple weeks ago) and new plugs after a 100k life cycle (factory NGKPFR6Q's). 

The belt condition is like new with no wear to the teeth, no noticeable cracking or hardening and with the Stern soft poly solid motor mounts and Stern progressive solid tranny mounts, I can attest that there is either very little or no stretch yet. I have instant power, no discernible lag from engine/driveline slack. 
So far I am VERY impressed and VERY satisfied. Only time will tell how long it will last but for the price and the fact that Rai stands behind their product with warranty and all I feel very confident and comfortable running their product. 

Jeff (me)


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## The Dub Man (May 25, 2010)

im starting to lean towards rai's kevlar, but is this a guaranteed gates belt construction that they base the kevlar rai belt off of?


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## Slimjimmn (Apr 8, 2006)

the Guy from RAI stated the belt is made by gates to RAI standards with kevlar not fiberglass strands, then the ribs are cut by a confidential business. :thumbup: 

kevlar is like 3-4x stronger than fiberglass.


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## cjb88 (Aug 21, 2010)

Okay guys- so I have an 03 20th with 63k on it. I am planning to do the timing belt this summer. I really like the idea of the kit from RAI with the kevlar belt and the IE manual tensioner, but I have a few questions for the more experienced. Does the RAI kit come with both the billet tensioner and billet idler from IE? Also, I know with a manual tensioner you have to occasionally check the tension. Does checking and possibly adjusting this require taking a bunch of stuff back apart to get the timing cover off?


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

cjb88 said:


> Okay guys- so I have an 03 20th with 63k on it. I am planning to do the timing belt this summer. I really like the idea of the kit from RAI with the kevlar belt and the IE manual tensioner, but I have a few questions for the more experienced. Does the RAI kit come with both the billet tensioner and billet idler from IE? Also, I know with a manual tensioner you have to occasionally check the tension. Does checking and possibly adjusting this require taking a bunch of stuff back apart to get the timing cover off?


Timing cover just takes some fiddling to get off. No major work.


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## cjb88 (Aug 21, 2010)

so you don't have the take the accessory drive and all that stuff off in order to remove the timing cover? i know there is an inspection cover. I'm a bit new to the VW scene....


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

cjb88 said:


> so you don't have the take the accessory drive and all that stuff off in order to remove the timing cover? i know there is an inspection cover. I'm a bit new to the VW scene....


Yeah, you can inspect it and get to the tensioner (if you're running a manual tensioner) from the plastic top timing cover.

To replace the timing belt its a much more involved job...but checking is pretty easy.


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## cjb88 (Aug 21, 2010)

Oh okay. I know replacing it is more involved, I just didn't realize you could readjust it through the inspection cover. That's good to know. Would you recommend replacing cam and/or crank seals during a TB replacement? These are options for the RAI kit. If so, how involved are those past what's involved for the TB?


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

cjb88 said:


> Oh okay. I know replacing it is more involved, I just didn't realize you could readjust it through the inspection cover. That's good to know. Would you recommend replacing cam and/or crank seals during a TB replacement? These are options for the RAI kit. If so, how involved are those past what's involved for the TB?


During a timing belt replacement you have to remove the engine mount. So replace those stretch bolts

Also, you have to replace the timing belt tensioner. Throw it away. Then buy the IE manual timing belt roller + idler pulley

If you don't have a metal water pump already, replace that.

Replace the accessory belt while you're in there.

If the cam and crank seals aren't leaking. Don't touch them. The crank seal is a pain in the ass to replace. Don't do it unless you absolutely need to. The cam seals aren't too much of a pain in the ass, but no need to change them unless you need to.


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## 16plus4v (May 4, 2006)

Mike Pauciullo said:


> gates all day


This.


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## Andaloons (Apr 16, 2004)

Slimjimmn said:


> i have never seen a failed tensioner of the new hydraulic unit with pin.


My *OEM *hydraulic timing belt tensioner failed at 60,416 miles. Now you have seen it!


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

Is there a gates racing part number for the 058 timing belt?


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## cjb88 (Aug 21, 2010)

Thanks for all the info guys!


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

The last OE tensioner I bought directly from the dealer lasted all of ~3000 miles, at which point I pulled the timing cover off to look at something on the cam gear and noticed the belt was totally loose. This was the tipping point for us to create the roller / tensioner setup and enter that market.

I certainly do not agree with 100k mile claims being thrown around for belts which would be lucky to have 20% of that on them so far. Call me conservative, but it's an expensive thing to fool around with.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> The last OE tensioner I bought directly from the dealer lasted all of ~3000 miles, at which point I pulled the timing cover off to look at something on the cam gear and noticed the belt was totally loose. This was the tipping point for us to create the roller / tensioner setup and enter that market.
> 
> I certainly do not agree with 100k mile claims being thrown around for belts which would be lucky to have 20% of that on them so far. Call me conservative, but it's an expensive thing to fool around with.


Why even d1ck around with OE tensioners when they have such a reputation?

Just go manual tensioner. They have worked for years and years and years with few to any failures (that I've heard of at least). I mean, why not. Well...the IE setup costs more than an IE tensioner...but who cares. Cheap insurance.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

groggory said:


> Why even d1ck around with OE tensioners when they have such a reputation?
> 
> Just go manual tensioner. They have worked for years and years and years with few to any failures (that I've heard of at least). I mean, why not. Well...the IE setup costs more than an IE tensioner...but who cares. Cheap insurance.


It was because I didn't like the way the regular mech tensioner setups lost belt wrap on the crank and also allow more vibration in the belt down there. Like I said, it was a tipping point where I was like damnit, I'm making something.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> It was because I didn't like the way the regular mech tensioner setups lost belt wrap on the crank and also allow more vibration in the belt down there. Like I said, it was a tipping point where I was like damnit, I'm making something.


I am re-reading my post and I totally did not type what I was thinking. I'll try again...

OE Hydraulic tensioner - Failures of this are well known and semi-common. Do not buy this.

OE Manual tensioner (w/ hardened stud) - Solid. Proven from back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's with few failures (that I know of)

OE Manual tensioner (w/ hardened stud) + IE idler roller - Extra insurance. Makes the OE manual tensioner just that much better.


OE Manual tensioner (w/ hardened stud) + hardened stud (ARP) + IE idler roller + RAI Kevlar Timing Belt - Ultimate. Extra insurance. Makes the OE manual tensioner just that much better.

Even extra insurance - IE crank dowel pin kit + ARP cam gear bolt + Better cam gear (eg. Eurospec hardened vernier pin gear)


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

> It was because I didn't like the way the regular mech tensioner setups lost belt wrap on the crank and also allow more vibration in the belt down there. Like I said, it was a tipping point where I was like damnit, I'm making something.



I noticed this when I converted to manual tensioner, and today im about to order a crank pulley dowel kit as well as the awesome 058 block pulley deal from you guys. 

Glad someone stepped up with a solution that has the facilities. I was going to crudely hack up some flat steel or something and drill it out then tap a hole.

Any advice on the stock 16v tensioner stud? Should it be replaced with something better?

I'm running it spaced out with stainless washers right now. Once I put the new headon and 5857 I will check to see if it bent, but so far so good. Couple cross country trips and 1 year of on/off driving.


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## 16plus4v (May 4, 2006)

Def manual tensioner setups going forward.

I think the IE piece is nice, however I use an old oem tensioner assembly and take the pin out thus leaving the idler roller setup AND your timing unit is completely covered, sealed and closed off from daily driving exposure to rain, dust etc...And you get that extra bit of security I guess.. Honestly though I have been running them for YEARS without the roller and no issues... But since you'd have an old unit anyways you may as well use it.


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

iae21 said:


> I heard about some Kevlar belts that were breaking....can anyone confirm if this is true?





zerb said:


> the 034 ones toasted a few motors from what i heard.



Heard this as well. I also heard 034 and RAI come from the same manufacturer. Just hearsay though...


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

> Def manual tensioner setups going forward.
> 
> I think the IE piece is nice, however I use an old oem tensioner assembly and take the pin out thus leaving the idler roller setup AND your timing unit is completely covered, sealed and closed off from daily driving exposure to rain, dust etc...And you get that extra bit of security I guess.. Honestly though I have been running them for YEARS without the roller and no issues... But since you'd have an old unit anyways you may as well use it.


I have that now, and dislike it. I don't know if it is worth spending 75$ over. Does it take it have a benefit over a roller and hydraulic tensioner body?


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## bigslim1976 (Jun 18, 2009)

*19500 miles. Got 95k on my second timing belt*

I replaced my first timing belt, spark plugs and got the car chipped(APR) at exactly 100,000 miles. I've got 195,000 on the car right now and just ordered the ECS lightweight pulley kit because I'm planning on changing my timing belt next week. My sisters husband went over 100,000 miles on his first timing belt, and the car was chipped at 50,000. For sure he and I have been playing with fire, but as far as any faliures on the tensioners I can't say anything bad about the OE ones. I do wanna put a Kevlar belt on just for peace of mind, but I'm concerned about that type of material running along the OE tensioner. I wouldn't mind installing a manual tensioner after hearing all the positive reviews. I'm just not that familiar with the operation and adjustment, and what problems can arise if you fail to adjust them properly. I'm all for aftermarket parts, but have a fear of them conflicting with associated components. I guess my opinion is that I dont have any complaints with the OE parts(knock wood). 

2002 1.8t GTI/APR 91 oct chip/Eurosport cool-flo intake/gas guzzling 19" wheels/complete neuspeed-koni suspension sitting in my garage for the past 8 years/


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Keep the stock harmonic pulley... Or buy a fluidsmpr


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

I just put a Gates + manual tensioner on a month ago, a bit looser than a rubber belt but it has worked well. Biggest/only issue? It whines like a blower belt. After research (mainly from Evo guys) it seems like this is considered common, or is due to over-tension of the belt, but some said they've driven with a whiny belt for thousands of miles w/o issue. Mine has quieted down a bit, but I will probably eventually tweak the tension when I check it, maybe within the month. Either way, I'm happy that I moved away from the rubber/hydraulic combo. Rule 1:


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

gdoggmoney said:


> Any advice on the stock 16v tensioner stud? Should it be replaced with something better?


 I use a grade 8 metric hex head bolt with the IE manual tensioner kit. Use a dab of loctite on the bolt when you put it in. I got fed up with the 16V stud and nut combo.


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## Jettin2pointSlow (Mar 5, 2002)

I too have had my RAi on for about 5k miles, and have had zero issues. Granted im on a stock engine with no mods accept a N75 and 710N


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

l88m22vette said:


> I just put a Gates + manual tensioner on a month ago, a bit looser than a rubber belt but it has worked well. Biggest/only issue? It whines like a blower belt. After research (mainly from Evo guys) it seems like this is considered common, or is due to over-tension of the belt, but some said they've driven with a whiny belt for thousands of miles w/o issue. Mine has quieted down a bit, but I will probably eventually tweak the tension when I check it, maybe within the month. Either way, I'm happy that I moved away from the rubber/hydraulic combo. Rule 1:


 Sounds like too much tension on the belt. My gates belt makes no noise what so ever.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

zerb said:


> Gates belt allday.


 this :thumbup: not knocking the quality of RAI's product, Gates Racing is OG as previously stated


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## K20017 (Nov 14, 2007)

Are you buying these stronger belts so you can go more miles without changing it or so they don't just snap out of the blue? 

Consider this. A continental belt costs about $30 or maybe less. The gates costs $54 according to that one website posted earlier. If you will be changing the belts at the same time, I just see a waste of money.


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

K20017 said:


> Are you buying these stronger belts so you can go more miles without changing it or so they don't just snap out of the blue?
> 
> Consider this. A continental belt costs about $30 or maybe less. The gates costs $54 according to that one website posted earlier. If you will be changing the belts at the same time, I just see a waste of money.


 I think the gates belts can hold up to more HP without stretching. I am still using an OEM continental belt though


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

Twopnt016v said:


> Sounds like too much tension on the belt. My gates belt makes no noise what so ever.


 I'm getting a clutch within a month, it will be adjusted then, good to know how it _should _work :thumbup:


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## UroTuning (Jul 18, 2012)

if your looking for the Gates Belt we have manual kits from IE available at the best price! 

http://www.urotuning.com/Engine-Timing-s/4662.htm


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## stickman (Jan 16, 2001)

I know this is a bit off subject, but for those who have been around 16Vs for a while know that the factory change interval for the timing belt is not sufficient for a non-stock, harder driven car. I personally change this belt around 45k on a 16V.

That being said, if you are using an OEM belt, on a 1.8T, you may wish to change them more frequently. I changed mine at 45k my 1.8T.

Brian


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

stickman said:


> I know this is a bit off subject, but for those who have been around 16Vs for a while know that the factory change interval for the timing belt is not sufficient for a non-stock, harder driven car. I personally change this belt around 45k on a 16V.
> 
> That being said, if you are using an OEM belt, on a 1.8T, you may wish to change them more frequently. I changed mine at 45k my 1.8T.
> 
> Brian


And just FYI, the belts are durable as hell. It's the tensioner and water pump that will end up going bad on you.


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## stickman (Jan 16, 2001)

groggory said:


> And just FYI, the belts are durable as hell. It's the tensioner and water pump that will end up going bad on you.


Which is exactly why my water pump went out at 17k and I changed to a manual tensioner. <sigh>

Brian


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