# Engine specifications - Group B rally quattros



## WAUOla (Apr 15, 2005)

So, after much research I still can't find any hard evidence of the
following info:
#1 - engine branding/code Group 4 rally quattro, 2144cc.
#2 - rally quattro A2 engine branding/code, 2133cc.
#3 - rally Sport quattro engine branding/code, 2133cc.
#4 - rally Sport quattro engine capacity.
read 2147cc somewhere, seems strange...
#5 - Sport quattro S1 engine branding/code.
#6 - Sport quattro S1 engine capacity.
read that by maximal engine capacity in Group B, there was first a
turbo-factor by 1.4 that gave S1 cars up to number 11 a volume of
2110cc, latter models were smaller capacity by 1990cc because of a
new turbo-factor of 1.5.
#7 Sport quattro S1 'Pikes Peak' engine branding/code.
#8 Sport quattro S1 'Pikes Peak' engine capacity.
yes I wonder, therefor I ask...








best regards


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## Fusilier (Apr 17, 2004)

*Re: Engine specifications - Group B rally quattros (WAUOla)*

Good questions. And I don't know the answer, but I'll blurb amount some things I've seen. My car has KW#85 and came from Lehmann Motoren Technik. 
The main thing to consider when looking at the rally cars is that there is no one definative answer for any particular type of car. The development of the cars was a constant process and continually changed as Audi increased their time and involvement in motorsports.
So, I would say with some confidence that the earliest I5 race motors were simply urquattro ironblocks. I believe very early urquattros have the smaller sized motors compared to the common 2.2 liters. They were iron blocks. Some of the immediate differences is the installation of a tubular exhuast manifold and K27 turbos instead of the cast unit with a K26. Somewhere along the way, the A2 picked up a homologated alloy block for the 10V. This is prior to the KW sport quattro. For all purposes this will the closest match between the custom castings of the A2. 
There are some small exterior differences between the KW block and the A2 castings in the crankcase vent area and the AC compressor mounting area, but the similiarities are more numerous than the differences. The construction of the two are very similar.
The rally sport quattro used sport quattro cast manifolds throughout, and were developed at the same time as the street car. Audisport was casting their own alloy blocks around the time of the A2 and that trend continued up through the IMSA cars which were magnesium. I don't think they will have an engine code, more likely a VAG PN. There are numerous custom magnesium castings in my car which are stamped with a PN. 
Still, we're talking about maybe 40 blocks for the LWB cars and the rally sport quattros and 214 KWs for the homologations. The S1s are maybe 14 blocks. Some spares. thats 300 to 400 units produced if you include the homologations which technically were supposed to recieve the same components as the rally car. Keep in mind that total represents at least two casting runs, So the economy of scale factor definately plays into this. Block runs would be expensive regardless of the unlimited budget which was under VAG thumbs to be reduced by the time the S1 was coming around. I don't recall reading of any failures of the A2 alloy block so if it was modified for use in the S1 and pike's peak it would have to be so for a very slight weight reduction or to fix some other problem. Would that be worth it? It might not be different. I have heard this block called the "Lehmann block"; but I don;t think Lehmann was involved in the casting and design of an engine block. That would have been done by Audisport engineers. So its possible this one run of alloy blocks, the first run was large enough to carry over into the S1 timeline. Now, the audisport budget was different from the budget to make the 200 odd required homologation cars (sport quattros), so it is very possible that some construction differences to save cost were implemented on the run of KW blocks. That would be something buried in Audi's records somewhere that I would love to see. I don't think the sample size of Rally cars and S1s are large enough to see if they had the same head gasket issues as the KWs. The pososity claim is plain wrong with the KW since it was sleeved like the A2 alloy blocks. It had cast in sleeves. Porosity of the aluminum cylinder wall can be associated to the later production alloy blocks which were not sleeved used in various street cars. I would avoid those all together. The problems with the KW were that the dissimilar metals at the deck of the block would create small coolant leaks while the engine was cold. Once it was warmed up the problem went away. Audi obviously pulled KWs from many Sport Quattros in Europe; however, many SQs still have their original motors and they're working fine after 20 years. My block is one of those pulled motors that had a "problem" But somehow it found its way to the best Audi inline 5 motor shop in Europe who sold it for considerable money to a North American rallier.







Surely if they needed blocks, pulling KWs from street cars under the guise of preventative maintenance was a win-win situation for Audi. Its a supply of cheap alloy race blocks while preventing a possible warranty problem. Audi could really care less about some minor problem while the engine was cold. As long as the block did not break under race conditions(which never happened to my knowledge) and make it between rebuilds which would be often anyways. It met their three important criteria, which was lightweight, proper engine size for the rules, and cheap. I say cheap because they have already paid for them which would be cheaper than doing another run of blocks. 
The pike's peak used the same S1 motor. Not because of the rules which would of allowed Audi to run whatever they could cram under the hood, but because thats the motor they had and it worked. Again, very possibly the same run of alloy castings from the A2 days. I recall reading the A2 alloy was homologated. The KW was homologated due to its production run. Thats at least two homologations. Some minor tweaks to engine size would follow which wouldn't require a homologation of an engine block.
There are a few guys I can ask who might know what is stamped on their engine block. One is an A2 and the other is a rally sport quattro. 


_Modified by Fusilier at 4:04 PM 4-16-2005_


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## WAUOla (Apr 15, 2005)

*Re: Engine specifications - Group B rally quattros (Fusilier)*

Any help is appreciated, indeed!
Problem is that detailed books on these cars - atleast that I've found -
stops at the A2. As far as I know, the 2110cc for racecars was going
on until the new turbofactor as mentioned above. I see the biggest
problem here that the latter cars, due to silenced projects and later
builds of cars, are kept to a secret. Only former workers and coworkers
and mayby some customers know about this, and as you mentioned
in your reply, the engines were developed along the way and after
the drivers demands (i.e. as Stig Blomquist had no rpm limit as I've
understood it).
Due to many uncertain sources of info, I cannot say this or that, but
that is why I really would like to get some hands-on info. In a few
years many info could "get lost", and that would be too bad. Although
I know Lehmann now holds the complete paperfilings that used to
belong to Audi M.S. themselves. I also have a request there about
this info.
I've tracked down one A1 enging (iron block yes, as you mentioned







)
and an A2 engine. The A1 is marked MRQ-3 or MRQ-31 (as for spare
engines) and is mayby something along the line of Motoren Rally
Quattro - version 3, suffixed 1 for spare enginges. Just a wild guess
there. Also sent an email to the owner of a genuine S1 car and a
special built Sport quattro car that features an engine alike the Pikes
Peak car, only with one fuelrail.
So, a bit of topic, but still on-topic regarding quattros, are you the
owner of bufkinengineering site? I visited a short while ago, signing
the guestbook and all. From your signature I can see you have two
quattros 1983 models, and one with the KW engine.
If I conclude with that the genuine engine is in the genuine car, you
have a SQ, do I conclude right? By the way, loved the homepage, had
me drewelling a LONG time one late evening after engineering studies.

edit:
regarding the first rally cars, yes I too believe these are the 2.1L
(2144cc) engines featured as on the streetcars of WR engines with
normal iron cast block, but with a ported and polished head, bigger
valves and turbo and Bosch enginge management also found one
some Porsches. (I can look this up in one of my books I brought along
to my new home as for studies).


_Modified by WAUOla at 8:23 AM 4-16-2005_


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## Fusilier (Apr 17, 2004)

*Re: Engine specifications - Group B rally quattros (WAUOla)*

Ola,
I'm James Bufkin. I have a stock urquattro and I have the 83 rally car with the KW engine and S1 manifolds on it. You obviously have been doing some homework on this and I'll see what I can dig up on engine sizes and maybe some pictures that I have in rally books. 
The only real way is either to get the information from Audisport regarding how the engines were tagged and to which chasis they were initially installed. Or perhaps the engines were not tied to any particular chasis perhaps being on rotation between rallies. It could get confusing very quickly. The engine branding is certainly as good a place to start as any. 
I'll send an email to Hanlon in the UK with an A2 and see what his block says. Also.. the Sport Quattro Rally from Vegas has been sold to a guy in the UK and the car is being shipped there now. Once it arrives, I will ask the new owner details about the engine and see if he can answer these questions if he ever works on the car. From the pictures, the engine bay of that Sport Quattro (which was painted in the HB livery) looked alot like a stock sport quattro complete with the cast SQ manifold and swooping air intake. 
Just a thing I read in your post. As I understand it, The first rally cars used Pierburg which was a type of CIS. The later 10V cars used a Bosch ECU with a fuel rail righe before that technology found its way to the Sport Quattro and the S1. I think that is what you meant, I have seen many pictures of the Bosch setup on the 10V cars with the fuel rail nestled between the intake manifold and the head where the rats nest of CIS fuel lines normally sits. I'll have to look for a Pierburg equiped car for a picture of that engine. I found a really awesome picture of a S1E2 with what looks like a MAF mounted onto the turbo. This is normally covered up by the kevlar/carbon airbox.
I'll have to scan this and post it. It's a photo I've not seen online before.
Later,
James


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## WAUOla (Apr 15, 2005)

*Re: Engine specifications - Group B rally quattros (Fusilier)*

regarding the difference between the Group 4, A1 and A2 I have
gathered info as follows (based on J. Walton);
GROUP 4 RALLY QUATTRO
Iron cylinder block. Bore x stroke 79.5mm x 86.4mm (2144cc) with
6.3:1 compression ratio. Pierburg DVG mechanical fuel-injection with
singel KKK turbocharger of different casings. Enlarged air-to-air
intercooler with 1.6 bar wastegate-controlled maximum boost. Extra
heat treatment of forged steel crankshaft, six main bearings, dry sump
lubrication via boot-mounted tank. Hitachi ignition.
Inlet valve size up from production 38.2mm to 41.1mm, exhaust valve
size decreased from 33.3mm to 35.2mm. Bosch ignition replaced
original Hitachi. Minimum output of 320hp DIN at 6500 rpms.
comment: don't quite know if this mark about Bosch ignition replacing
the Hitaci unit is a latter fix on Group 4, and if the valve changes were
with it too.

QUATTRO A1
Aluminum head and block with cast iron dry liners. Bore x stroke
79.51mm x 86.4mm (2144cc), 2178cc available by max bore at
80.11mm. 6.3:1 compression ratio. Pierburg-Bosch sports mechanical
fuel-injection, air intercooler, group B speec KKK-26 turbo, evolution
had KKK-27. Wastegate boost maximum 1.9BAR, usual minimum at
1.6BAR. Valves as on Group 4 car. 340hp at 1.7BAR at 6000rpms.
QUATTRO A2
Akuminum head and block with cast iron dry liners. Bore x stroke
79.3mm x 86.4mm (2133cc), but this was for the basic homologation
vehicle. Therefor competition A2s featured 80.11mm max bore size
allied to 85.0mm stroke, or minimum 79.51mm bore.
Homologated A2s had engine capacity of 2110cc (1.4 turbo factor that
gave 2954cc total, were max allowed was 2999cc).
Electronically managed fuel-injection by Bosch, with some Pierburg
branded components. Four (two ignition and two injection) electronic
control boxes in cockpit. group B production cars had KKK-26, evo A2s
had had enlarged KKK-27s. Compression ratio of 6.5:1, and max
boost of 1.9BAR. Up to 400hp at 7000rpms. Valves as for the A1, and
the crank is good for over 8000rpms.

total comment:
there seems to be different specs around, but these seems to be the
most accurate so far. Anywyas, time for bed as its 8hrs until my day at
schools starts tomorrow. I'm not very knowledgeable on cars in the
technics area, but I'm still learning...so if I ask questions later on
regarding things it might seem more likly why I guess


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## WAUOla (Apr 15, 2005)

*Re: Engine specifications - Group B rally quattros (WAUOla)*

Just gotten reply on branding of these cars.
Until "the 380hp cars" - which I assume is the A2 and latter models -
there were no specific numbering of the engines. BUT, there were a
colour branding of the engines to seperate them by tuner that had
done the engine.


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## Fusilier (Apr 17, 2004)

*Re: Engine specifications - Group B rally quattros (WAUOla)*

I've heard Red. 
Can you confirm that this is one of the engine block colors?
James


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## WAUOla (Apr 15, 2005)

*Re: Engine specifications - Group B rally quattros (Fusilier)*

Yes, red is one of the colors.
Here are the colorspecifications;
blue = Kolb
yellow = Heidegger
brown = Lehmann
orange = Nekarsulm
red = Schrick.
Kolb, Heidegger and Schrick are tuners I've did not know had
anything to do with these rallycars. The only tuners I knew of was
Audi themselves and Lehmann, and also seen som Schmidt Motorsport
quattros.
Do you know how these colors are branded? Is the complete block
peinted?
Wonder how numberbranding is on the different tuners engines then








and regarding sizes, it seems to be the following:
- Group 4 used the reguler size engine blocks, 2144cc with 79.5x86.4
- A1 was almost the same, 2145cc with 79.51x86.4
- A2 introduced the new size of 2133cc with 79.3x86.4
maximum 80.11x85.0 = 2142cc x 1.4 factor for turbo = 2999cc
The mail I got specifies these engines to be 83 an onwards, so I assume this is the same for Sport quatto rallycars
- Pikes Peak, 2110cc, 79.5x85.0



_Modified by WAUOla at 2:44 AM 5-2-2005_


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## Fusilier (Apr 17, 2004)

*Re: Engine specifications - Group B rally quattros (WAUOla)*

This is the S1 in Vegas. Is that a red or Orange Engine block?


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## WAUOla (Apr 15, 2005)

*Re: Engine specifications - Group B rally quattros (Fusilier)*

I'm actually not sure...
But do you have any chassis number info on this car?
Don't remember RIGHT here and now, but as an S1
there would be just an chassisnumber for the car, and
I'll recon this is the WAU ZZZ 85 ZGA 905 004 or RE 04
car if my studies are not COMPLETLY wrong.
I shall do an enquiry on this...


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## Dan-B (Oct 17, 2002)

*Re: Engine specifications - Group B rally quattros (WAUOla)*

I have one question guys, is there any relationship between the older Passats and the Quattro?


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## PerL (Jan 9, 2001)

*Re: Engine specifications - Group B rally quattros (Dan-B)*

The older Passat and the Audi 80 shared the front end of the chassis platform. Since the Ur-quattro basically is an 80 Coupe, it does share a lot in the front end. VW made a show car in 1982, it was a Passat 3-door hatchback with the complete running gear from the Ur-quattro, including the turbo engine and quattro 4wd system. This car is located in the VW museum today.


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## WAUOla (Apr 15, 2005)

*Re: Engine specifications - Group B rally quattros (PerL)*

James:
did you find out any more about the Vegas car?


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## Fusilier (Apr 17, 2004)

*Re: Engine specifications - Group B rally quattros (WAUOla)*

Ola,
I think someone found what is possibly a Kolb engine.
The numbers he found on the block
are:
Casted on the block: WW01 , V035103021BP
Punched "by hand" : S066B , 035-RT/M6
He says the Engine is painted dark blue.
James


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