# VR6 turbo VRT racing oil weight



## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

I've searched - there are countless threads on OEM engine weight and what people use daily, but what about in race / track situations? What do you run? (specifically for VRT's, 24v / R32)

Thicker is not necessarily better, but how do we know for sure? Is there a method / rule?

Specifically we are talking race conditions in hot summer weather.


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## 8-VALVER (Jan 11, 2012)

Maybe "Lance" can help with this one.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

Can't go wrong with LubroMoly 10w60 or Motul


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

Nah Lance can't help with this one. 

Thanks sp_golf - went with liqui moly 10w60. it may be my imagination, but the motor seems to run a little smoother and it feels more responsive - but I have no #'s to prove any of that. 

What I can prove is my oil temps were definitely more manageable and I didn't burn nearly as much oil as the 5w40 I was using previously. After a full session - on and off for about 4 hours, 5w40 on the dip stick would look half full - in comparison the 60w went down maybe a 1/4 of the way. FYI, at the track I'm constantly bouncing off the rev limiter 7k+ for 20-30 mins at a time, then maybe a 15-20 min rest / cool down, and back at it.

Oil pressure (understandably) gets really high on high RPM WOT pulls in 3rd and 4th.... so next oil change I'm gonna experiment with 50 weight and see how the motor reacts.


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## newcreation (Nov 23, 2003)

I have been using 5w-50


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## JohnStamos (Feb 3, 2010)

Running a 50/60 weight in a car with stock clearances is going to cause more harm then good. 10w/60 in this application is moronic. You will be popping the pressure relief valve at VERY low rpm, ceasing any increase in oil flow. 

Pressure is NOT an indication of protection, it is a indication of resistance to flow. This is VERY misunderstood by many in the automotive world. With this comes less oil volume being passed through the motor, which leaves a higher chance of bearing wear due to film degradation.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

At no time did I state that more pressure was better- that's exactly why I want to try a lighter weight due to the higher pressures I was seeing at full out WOT

What I know is this:

60w consumption was much lower than that of the 40w in the same brand. Whether that's due to weight or formulation I'm not sure. The amount of liquid that I see in the catch cans is less with the 60w as well. By about half.

With 5w40 the highest pressure I see is in the upper 80's- with 10w60 its mid 90's. Keep in mind I see these numbers @ full out WOT 7k+ RPM - the rest of the times the pressures from 50w and 60w are similar (60w higher by a bit - maybe ~7psi).

Does anyone know @ what psi / bar is the pressure relief valve set on a MKV R32?

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## newcreation (Nov 23, 2003)

With 5w-50 I am seeing comparable pressures as when using 5w-40. Been using the 5w-50 year round for 4yrs. Oil consumption is less. The pressure relief I think is 101psi trying to remember from when I used to work at Vw I read up on it. Because back in 05 I installed a oil pressure gauge on the R and cold days and low rpms it would wrap the pressure gauge no problem using 0w-40 oil and I was concerned. Never had issues with engine. 
Also send my oil out for analysis and each time they are happy with what is done to the car and how the oil samples show no wear.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

So maybe 50w is the sweet spot, the more I think about it. I'll test 50w in a couple more weeks the next time I'm at the track. 

For my purposes I also have to consider how effectively the oil I choose can lubricate under the burden of higher oil temps (>270f-310f) - which a street machine would normally never see. The 5w40's consumption rate was really high at those temps; conversely I found consumption was much lower with the 60w. (That's gotta mean something.)

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## newcreation (Nov 23, 2003)

Yes sir . give the 50 a try and see how you like it. You may think it's not for you after you try it . I am by no means never nice to my motor but I do maintenance the crap out of it and make sure I am using what is fitting for may application.


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## noskeh (Mar 11, 2004)

Im running torco SR-5 5w40 they have a SR-5R too. Just my .02

SR-5 R
http://www.torcousa.com/torco_product/sr-5.html


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

JohnStamos said:


> Running a 50/60 weight in a car with stock clearances is going to cause more harm then good. 10w/60 in this application is moronic. You will be popping the pressure relief valve at VERY low rpm, ceasing any increase in oil flow.
> 
> Pressure is NOT an indication of protection, it is a indication of resistance to flow. This is VERY misunderstood by many in the automotive world. With this comes less oil volume being passed through the motor, which leaves a higher chance of bearing wear due to film degradation.


On a freshly built motor, yes. 
Most of these engines are designed to run a 40 weight oil.
In the real world with higher k engines that are already worn it makes a big difference once the oil temp goes up. I've studied the pressure increases closely on a 1.8T and generally it's no more than 10-20psi depending on the RPM. On that particular engine the pressure was well within factory specs with 10w60.
VR6 always make high oil pressure so I understand your point, but so far I've never had a problem, just less oil consumption, and more consistent hot oil pressure.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

interesting bit of reading I found:

Motor Oil Articles by Dr. Ali E. Haas (AEHaas)


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## wolfens_golf (Dec 30, 2009)

24vGTiVR6 said:


> interesting bit of reading I found:
> 
> Motor Oil Articles by Dr. Ali E. Haas (AEHaas)


Very interesting read indeed. I was going to run a 10w-60, but now im not so sure. Trial and error reguarding the optimal engine oil pressure at 6k is something to consider. 

I think a 0w-30 or 0w-40 is a good option for street beatings.



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## newcreation (Nov 23, 2003)

Great read and informational read. Have to read it again when I have more time and don't skim so fast.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

Well I went to the track again yesterday. After a couple weeks of street driving and about 4-5 hrs of hard time attack practice / quali sessions- I think I've concluded that 10w60 for VR6 isn't the best oil for daily use, but it definitely has its place on track. 

On the street-
I suspect (due to viscosity) some additional bearing wear occurs at startup (however- I haven't noticed shavings etc in the filter or magnetic drain plug) and you have to wait until the oil is warmed up to at least 150f to drive, otherwise the pressure gets too high when shifting / driving etc. Once warm (~212F) the oil pressure falls within normal VR6 spec as per bentley (albeit in the middle or high side, but still within spec). Also, with 5w40 I'd have to top up the oil level every 3-4 days, but I haven't had to touch the 10w60 as it has maintained its oil level (I check every morning before I go to work). The catch can is also catching less blow by with 10w60. A LOT less. 

On the track-
Oil temps on average went to about 290-310F. 10w60 oil pressures remained rock solid consistent (5w40 would fluctuate when really hot and at full WOT). At the track the oil did burn a little, but compared with the 40w it was practically nothing. With the same oil temps (~300F) the 40w would burn away down to about half way on the dip stick after about 15-20 laps and a few cool down laps. The 60w burned about 1/4 down the dipstick in a whole track day (30-40+ laps). Big big huge difference there. The catch cans did fill up (5oz each x 2) but after an entire track day- with the 40w Id have to empty them out about 2 or 3x in the same period of time.

There were a few 12v turbos and a MKV R turbo at the time attack event I was at yesterday - they were all using at least 50w - 60w oil. Nobody ran a 40w, they all gave me the same observations I was seeing regarding race conditions and oil weight. The owner of the turbo R in particular said he has been running 60w at the track for 3 yrs now (stock motor, just head spacer), and that thing still runs and sounds fantastic. (He beats on the bloody thing too). I also asked a few other inline 6 cyl turbo converted owners what they ran - most said 60w, very few (1 or 2) said 50w. When I asked everyone about 40w, they basically laughed and said its not enough (for racing purposes). 

I'd say 5w50 would be ideal for street machines in the hotter months, and 10w60 for racing environments where you are pushing the limit. If you drive in the winter with a VRT stick with a 0w40.

I'm still gonna try 5w50 at the track when I go next, just to compare - but I'm liking the 60w so far (not for daily, but for track use it seems to be excellent). 

and just to add - holy crap DTC60 STOPS like a mofo.

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## newcreation (Nov 23, 2003)

Awesome update. I was gonna as about if you had seen other vr6 turbo machines at the track and what weight they have been running. I have been happy with my 5w-50 so far and been using it a few years. Next time I do a track day maybe I'll try 60w . no more track days for me this year maybe some spirited driving as always which gets a punishment .


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## MK123GTi (Jun 2, 2005)

Damn you typed all that on your Iphone 

good update, thanks for the info :thumbup:


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

This is what I think of cold start engine wear:




15w40 or 20w50 IIRC. Possibly mixed with 1 or 2L of 5w30. All dino.
This whole discussion about how thinner is better is like saying you'll put less stress on your motor and make more power by running lighter pistons and rods. Sure it works but when you're out racing and making ridiculous amounts of power which would you rather have?.
There's a good reason why most M motors run 10w60 and Ferrari recommends 10w60 for racing.


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## NOTORIOUS VR (Sep 25, 2002)

24vGTiVR6 said:


> Well I went to the track again yesterday. After a couple weeks of street driving and about 4-5 hrs of hard time attack practice / quali sessions- I think I've concluded that 10w60 for VR6 isn't the best oil for daily use, but it definitely has its place on track.
> 
> On the street-
> I suspect (due to viscosity) some additional bearing wear occurs at startup (however- I haven't noticed shavings etc in the filter or magnetic drain plug) and you have to wait until the oil is warmed up to at least 150f to drive, otherwise the pressure gets too high when shifting / driving etc. Once warm (~212F) the oil pressure falls within normal VR6 spec as per bentley (albeit in the middle or high side, but still within spec). Also, with 5w40 I'd have to top up the oil level every 3-4 days, but I haven't had to touch the 10w60 as it has maintained its oil level (I check every morning before I go to work). The catch can is also catching less blow by with 10w60. A LOT less.
> ...


Nice data.... but really the issue here is that you're oil temps are past the point where you want to be (~300F), and you should consider installing an external oil cooler for track use (if you haven't already). That way you can keep the temps sane and go back to using a more appropriate oil viscosity.

If proper management of engine heat (coolant and oil), there is no need to band aid oil pressure loss via thicker oils.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

I run a 25 row Setrab in the lower bumper vent. Stock oil / water cooler deleted. Water temps get to 200 but usually no higher. My oil temps always get up past 270 on hot track days.

I agree tho, for street / occasional track use I think going down to a 50w makes more sense. For some reason tho it's hard to find a decent brand 5w50 here (maybe I'm looking in the wrong places). 


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## NOTORIOUS VR (Sep 25, 2002)

How is your air flow management? Any shrouding or ducting going on? Many times these things are over looked and while you have a decent sized oil cooler if the air flow isn't directed it's probably not all that efficient.


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## R32.DEVIANT (Jul 3, 2010)

Use a ester based fully synthetic oil . I use Fushs Titan Pro race S 5-40 but my car isn`t a track car but does get a good betting though. Try the Pro s 10 -50 and see how you get on. You might be OK with Pro s 5-40 . 


http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-68898-f...-10w-50-ester-fully-synthetic-engine-oil.aspx


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

NOTORIOUS VR said:


> How is your air flow management? Any shrouding or ducting going on? Many times these things are over looked and while you have a decent sized oil cooler if the air flow isn't directed it's probably not all that efficient.


I tried "generic" ducting (mocal) but I didn't see any improvement 
I was thinking of making something out of aluminum that was better flowing + more exact fitting. Maybe design will be the difference in this scenario. I'll give'r a go.

now, in terms of the right oil for the situation - I think I've reached a new understanding.....
after staring at multiple data sheets for a longass time..... I've realized the weight that's labelled on the bottle actually means very little- the data sheets are what everyone should be looking at. The intended purpose of the oil and it's corresponding additives package makes all the difference and a basic weight # doesn't tell the whole story. (For example compare Amsoil 15w50 with Schaeffer 5w50 below - when cold the 15w# from the Amsoil should be much thicker than the Schaeffer 5w# right? But in this case it's the other way around...... - so no one should judge an oil just by the weight # on the box - you've gotta look at the stats behind the weights)

if I'm understanding everything correctly - basically- in my situation:
I need to find an oil that has a lower viscosity at & above operating temps to bring the oil pressures down (while keeping them stable), yet still have a high enough flash point & HTHS to keep up at higher operating temps during racing / high RPM conditions. Also a lower viscosity at startup would aid in cold start wear - it would be nice to have, but this isn't the priority. (There are many other things to consider, but I'm trying to keep this relatively simple.)

As a result I'm looking at the following:

Amsoil 15w50 Dominator Racing Synthetic
viscosity @ 40 = 126.3
viscosity @ 100 = 18
flash point = 238
HTHS = 5.6

Schaeffer Supreme 9000 5w50 Racing Oil
viscosity @ 40 = 146.87
viscosity @ 100 = 20.24
flash point = 226
HTHS = 5.08

Motul 5w50 sport
viscosity @ 40 = 107.1
viscosity @ 100 = 17.9
flash point = 244
HTHS = 4.5

Motul 300v Power 5w40
viscosity @ 40 = 81.8
viscosity @100 = 13.6
flash point = 230
HTHS = 4.1

for reference here are the stats that I could find on the 10w60 I'm currently using (I like everything about it except for the high oil pressures), and the 5w40 I was experiencing problems with previously. Just by looking at the data sheets I can see why the 10w60 performs better than the 5w40, why the consumption is lower, why the pressures are more stable at high temps, and also why the pressures are higher. While the Synthoil 5w40 I was using before is a great street oil, it just isn't a race oil..... it wasn't made for that purpose at all. The 10w60 on the other hand is definitely a race oil, but it's a bit too thick at running temps for my application. So now - I've gotta find something in the middle.

Liqui Moly 10w60 GT1 Race Tech
viscosity @ 40 = 155
viscosity @ 100 = 23.8
flash point = 240
HTHS = ??
evap loss = 6.5%
sulfate ash = 1.2/100g

Liqui Moly 5w40 Synthoil High Tech
viscosity @ 40 = 88.5
viscosity @ 100 = 14.5
flash point = 230
HTHS = 3.5
evap loss = 9.5%
sulfate ash = 1.2/100g

which one would you choose? I'm kinda leaning towards the Amsoil..... the Motul 5w50 looks great too but it's harder to come by where I live and (believe it or not) more expensive than the Amsoil.

if you like other 50w (or high performing 40w) please post them up and list at the minimum their viscosity @ 40 & 100c, flash point, and HTHS. If you want to add more info feel free to do so.


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## Ryan E. (Oct 1, 2002)

I've been using SR-5 for years and SR-5R when it came out in my 3.2, great stuff. During the process of getting my cooling straightened out for DE, this aided keeping my motor in good condition.

They now have a VW specific version SR-5 GDL, here's the spec sheet.




noskeh said:


> Im running torco SR-5 5w40 they have a SR-5R too. Just my .02
> 
> SR-5 R
> http://www.torcousa.com/torco_product/sr-5.html


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

Guys- My oil pressure gauge started acting really odd a couple days ago. After talking with VEI they said I have an older version of their pressure sensor, and that I need to send in the gauge to get calibrated with the new type of sensor they are using currently. 

So - I can't ultimately say if my recent oil pressure etc findings are 100% correct. When I get the new sender etc from VEI I'll confirm. 


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## 12V_VR (Aug 11, 2010)

What would you recommend for a street 12V VRT that mainly see's hwy pulls and a maybe a handful of passes down the strip a year ?


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## MK3.OT (May 4, 2010)

NOTORIOUS VR said:


> How is your air flow management? Any shrouding or ducting going on? Many times these things are over looked and while you have a decent sized oil cooler if the air flow isn't directed it's probably not all that efficient.


I would love to see how this is handled on MK3 platform.... I suspect it's something to check out in the future.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

^ I'm trying to move the setrab cooler forward a bit and I'll make a custom aluminum shroud for the bumper grille opening.

I tried universal ducting with a 3" hose previously, and it didn't do jack all. Hopefully the larger surface area of the duct work I'm planning will do the trick.

I'll post pics when I'm done. Waiting on some more argon gas and aluminum sheet right now. 


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

12V_VR said:


> What would you recommend for a street 12V VRT that mainly see's hwy pulls and a maybe a handful of passes down the strip a year ?


liqui moly or motul 5w40 is what I would run in that scenario

ok so-
got my oil pressure sensor fixed
bought some Amsoil 15w50 dominator oil
relocated the horns and moved the oil cooler up closer to the front lower bumper grille

going to the track in the next week or so, I'll report back.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

Amsoil dominator 15w50
Cold (15c ambient) start up pressure = ~70psi
Warm (200f) idle pressure = ~35psi
Max hot (~270f) pressure @ 5th gear WOT = ~87psi and it holds steady
Cruising on the highway (220f @ ~3k RPM) I see ~65-70psi

Everything is well within factory spec with added protection, less consumption, proper flow, and better high heat retention. I'm gonna stick with Amsoil for a while. 

In the interest of keeping my findings relative I kept the oil cooler in its old position for the aforementioned "test". I did however relocate the cooler closer to the bumper vent the next weekend. Max I saw was about ~250f when I was really pushing it, which is a big difference from before - so I was definitely lacking there. Ambient temps that day were around 35C.

Before:










After:










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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

24vGTiVR6 said:


> Amsoil dominator 15w50. Cold (15c ambient) start up pressure = ~70psi. Warm (200f) idle pressure = ~35psi. Max hot (~270f) pressure @ 5th gear WOT = ~90psi. Cruising on the highway (@ ~3k RPM) I see ~65-70psi when warm.
> 
> Everything is well within factory spec with added protection, less consumption, proper flow, and better high heat retention. I'm gonna stick with Amsoil for a while.
> 
> ...


I might give this a try, I just had to remove my head because it is cracked so once I put the engine back together I'll try this oil. 

compared to your numbers, I see warm at around 175f the pressure to be 14-15psi and if I rev up to 1500 and 2000 rpm I stay within the parameters listed below, they are from the Bentley. this is using Amsoil 5w-30 european formula low saps oil. 



Oil pressure specifications
• Oil pressure at 80°C (176°F):
1500 rpm 1.7 bar (25 psi)
2000 rpm 3.0 to 5.5 bar (43 to 80 psi)
• Oil pressure maximum:
3.2L R32 engine 7.0 bar (102 psi)


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