# vw 2.0 p0341 problem, timing is perfect



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

vw 2.0. Code p0341 came up, so first thing i did was replace the cam pos. sensor . Nothing changed.. SO, I replaced, coolant temp sensor(4 pin), coil, plugs, wires, crank sensor, MAF sensor, and checked the timing, it is perfect dead on tdc @ No. 1. Problem is (not only the annoying cel) when the car hits 1/4 temp it bogs down like crazy. A good 25 percent power loss. I checked wires, tested all circuits and everything checked out.. I assume the ECU BUT That is such a rarity. If any of you know how your vw runs without the temp sensors plugged in, That is how it is when it warms up. Any ideas please?


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Just because your #1 is TDC, doesnt mean your timing is right.

Follow this DIY and report back. Im betting your distributor timing is off (which is what causes the P0341 in the first place)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4966749-TECH-Timing-the-MKIII-2.0


----------



## ayton (Mar 12, 2003)

check the lower timing sprocket, its behind the crank pulley. start the car and watch it for any signs of wobble. I had the same problem.


----------



## greyhare (Dec 24, 2003)

What car are we talking about?


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

it is a 2000, there is no distb. it is a coil. pack.. vw golf 2.0. I checked 1 tdc with the cam sprocket it is in time


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

tdogg74 said:


> Just because your #1 is TDC, doesnt mean your timing is right.
> 
> Follow this DIY and report back. Im betting your distributor timing is off (which is what causes the P0341 in the first place)
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4966749-TECH-Timing-the-MKIII-2.0


 The cam sprocket lines up where it should when 1 is TDC. it is in time


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

What about your intermediate shaft? Its what spins the rotor in the distributor....thats what trips the CEL when its out of time and puts you into limp mode.


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

tdogg74 said:


> What about your intermediate shaft? Its what spins the rotor in the distributor....thats what trips the CEL when its out of time and puts you into limp mode.


It is a 2000, coil pack. Which I replaced too..I am so stumped man...also*** new knock sensors too


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

any other ideaS? not timing, not a sensor issue. Plus i tested all sensors as the bentley and haynes say...all of them work fine.. I know it is a timing code, so something is causing the timing to back when it warms up..those coolant temp sensors didnt do anything...someone here has to have another trick..


----------



## ayton (Mar 12, 2003)

Ruggeri5054 said:


> it is a 2000, there is no distb. it is a coil. pack.. vw golf 2.0. I checked 1 tdc with the cam sprocket it is in time


I had mine checked physically multiple times too. The problem was the key way on the sprocket was damaged and any amount of play while rotating would throw a code intermittently. while the car was idling normally; no problem, driving the car it would appear normal and then out of the blue it would throw a CEL, driving faster or slower; hitting a bump would do it then it would go away.
It's $25 in parts; make sure it isnt the problem.


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

hmm its something different to try..Thank you, I'll look into it in a few days here, I'll keep it updated as well.


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

ayton said:


> I had mine checked physically multiple times too. The problem was the key way on the sprocket was damaged and any amount of play while rotating would throw a code intermittently. while the car was idling normally; no problem, driving the car it would appear normal and then out of the blue it would throw a CEL, driving faster or slower; hitting a bump would do it then it would go away.
> It's $25 in parts; make sure it isnt the problem.


which part is this? The wooddrift key? or the sprocket it self...Your problem sounds just like mine, if you had a link to a pic of the part maybe?


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

wait, if it is the littly half moon key inbetween the sproket and cam, then i replaced that too...  nothing , i had to replace it because I lost it when doing my timing


----------



## greyhare (Dec 24, 2003)

He is talking about the crank end of things.

Look here:

http://www.germanautoparts.com/Volkswagen/Golf/Engine/225/8

On the crank sprocket the key is machined as part of the sprocket. If you take it off the bolt must be replaced.


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

how exactly would that be affected my temp? like i was saying earlier, it is religiously acting up right at a specific temp...So weird...


----------



## skip57 (Nov 7, 2008)

If the wood drift key was not it. Have you used a OMH meter at the ECM end of the wiring harness to check the wiring.

It is easier to have all the information to start with model, year, miles, mods & repairs


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

Yep Checked everything, backprobed the cam sensor, then followed all the way through the coil harness and to the computer..all fully connected. BTW it is a 1999.5 Golf 2.0 160k pretty much stock.


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

Can you guys see why im so confused lol.. no matter what i try, It religiously will lose power @ 1/4 temp to normal. when it cools back down (highway driving) power comes back at that mark.. then when warm power loss... Plus if timing was off(which it is not) It would run poor all the time even when cold. ehhhhhh:screwy:


----------



## skip57 (Nov 7, 2008)

Just as the rest of us are at this point, are the values coming out of the temp sending unit correct. Your car seams to be a cross over mid year change a 99 should have a distributer (check the part numbers)


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

99.5 mkiv, coil pack... no distb.


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

yes they are correct as the specs in the book state (within range)


----------



## ayton (Mar 12, 2003)

stumped here!


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

same here.. I took it to a few shops..they wanted 250-300 just to see because of the complexity.. p0341 shows up..MAYBE it is not the timing...maybe something is causing a longer crank, my crank sensor went not too long ago, that may have tripped the code too.. I would like to think maybe it is in the fuel injectors, I have ruled out ignition, all sensors. I test ran it with the temp sensors unplugged and it did the same thing. No change...If it was the ECU, how would it Determine Temp when the sensors were unplugged?( i asked myself) So I ruled that out too... My idea is not timing related at all.. that 0341 most likely came from long cranks

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

maybe it is my blinker fluid..or even better my muffler bearings! :laugh:


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

This code has nothing to do with ANYTHING but the signal from the CPS to the ECU.

Re-inspect the timing, the wiring, the CPS unit itself, and also check to see that the back of your cam gear isnt damaged.


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

I did already everything is flawless, i mean perfect. I ran it without the sensor plugged in too, and still same running condition nothing changed, not at all.. Should it change? I heard that the code could come up from extended cranks>? is that true?


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

just for the record im not questioning your answer lol, its great information, but how would temperature and this collide?


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

At this point you need to get a volt meter and start checking the voltage specs of the sensor and to the ECU. If your timing is correct, then its either a faulty sensor or there is a signal issue to the ECU.


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

are there more than 2 temp sensors on this mkiv 2.0 ?


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

tdogg74 said:


> At this point you need to get a volt meter and start checking the voltage specs of the sensor and to the ECU. If your timing is correct, then its either a faulty sensor or there is a signal issue to the ECU.



is there any specific path to start at, because I don't want to do a wild goose chase, I know something with temp is related, any starting point?


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

Voltage tolerances are in the Bentley manual. Unless you can find it somewhere on here or the internet.


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

I just thought of something, My thermostat is stuck open, this i know. I have been meaning to change it just never think of it at the time when I have time. Could that throw my timing off by such cool engine temps?


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

:what: Dude, no. Engine temps and ignition timing have nothing to do with each other. 

Go buy a Bentley manual and do a voltage test on the CPS and the wiring back to the ECU.


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

I have one, already did that, everything checked out perfect to spec.


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

And also, I tested for voltage, then manually turned the motor over and saw the change and signal it picked up from the cam


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

any other ideas>? I checked it all out...all good in wiring


----------



## Mr.loops (May 27, 2010)

tdogg74 said:


> :what: Dude, no. *Engine temps and ignition timing have nothing to do with each other. *
> 
> 
> I thought the one of the responsibilities of the CTS is to regulate ignition timing via the ECU.
> ...


----------



## tdogg74 (Mar 1, 2002)

A faulty CTS will not throw a P0341. 

A faulty CTS will send no signal to the ECU and the ECU will run at a 60-something degree default setting. 

Improper timing, or more specifically, the ignition firing out of sync with proper cylinder position, will cause you to run hotter.


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

agreed..only issue is the car is running very cold..as if the thermostat is stuck open.. it never runs hot at all.I would take it to a shop but I really find this interesting troubleshooting... Could , maybe, my Coolant temp sensor be faulty? or even better, may have bought the wrong one? I ordered another one an OEM product so maybe that will make an improvement. I will keep this updated..


----------



## skip57 (Nov 7, 2008)

Have you tried to tune it up as you state LONG cranks????? look for dirty connections....

OMH V mil. volts


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

Here's a new symptom. When it is acting up, I turn the car off, then right back on and it runs fine for a bit, but then back to normal after a few min. If by tune up you mean new plugs and wires then yes, but I'm not quite sure what you meant though


----------



## jettatech (Oct 26, 2001)

Camshaft Position Sensor "A" Circuit Range/Performance, Bank 1 or Single Sensor
Comparison to engine speed sensor ...no signal during 3 crankshaft signals.

the ecm is gonna look at the cam position and crank position to give a "quick start" long cranking is a direct result of loosing cam position. the engine knows its at TDC, but on what cam position, compression or exhaust? thats why you get the longer crank when the cam position is lost. HTH.


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

Ya, and what I think is happening is there is 1 thing wrong, causing a longer crank which is tripping the code, and what I think wrong is a bad CTS, even though I Replaced it, I think it was a dud. Because When I unplug the sensor, it runs crappy all the time, just like when it is warm.. I ordered a new sensor , should be here monday... I am willing to bet that this is the issue... I'll keep updated


----------



## jettatech (Oct 26, 2001)

Camshaft Position Sensor "A" Circuit Range/Performance, Bank 1 or Single Sensor
Comparison to engine speed sensor ...no signal during 3 crankshaft signals.

An easy base line of intake air temp, ambient temp, and coolant temp would indicate an inaccurate CTS. A coolant sensor would cause rich/lean condition on startup, might cause it to crank more, but not throw a specific code for the cam. i have seen inaccurate CTS cause long cranking, but never throw a fault for a cam sensor. wiggle test sensor?obvious you have multiple problems.


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

Wait, Ambient temp...That sensor is missing...? Could it cause a poor running issue after warm up or closed loop? And I agree there is more than one thing wrong here


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

jettatech said:


> might cause it to crank more, but not throw a specific code for the cam.


I have seen where extended cranks can cause this code


----------



## jettatech (Oct 26, 2001)

when a fuel pump goes bad, and extended cranks are made, the car will typically throw a crank sensor implausible signal, not cam sensor implausible. 
code stored:Camshaft Position Sensor "A" Circuit Range/Performance, Bank 1 or Single Sensor
when code is stored:Comparison to engine speed sensor ...no signal during 3 crankshaft signals.
taken directly from the repair manual. Im sure by now you already checked for coolant migration and cleaned all your grounds under the battery tray and by the rain tray at the ECM. some scotch brite pad and a 13mm socket is a great tool to clean your ground studs.


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

Well, a new CTS never changed anything so I know it is not that for sure... I will check under the battery tray too, Could a bad fuel pump be a possibility with the symptoms (if temp gauge is above quarter runs bad if below runs great)


----------



## epaparo (Oct 1, 2006)

In any event, change the damn thermostat-it may improve your fuel economy! Yes, I replaced mine and got my fuel economy back...


----------



## Strictly4Boost (Feb 21, 2009)

I'm having the same exact problem on a 97 mk3 I bought off a girl who had the car parked for 2 years ... I have just turned it on 2 days ago , I thought it was temp related, i did a scan I found out i had 3 codes, P0341 , P0131, P0137

I couldn't rev or anything, i thought the p0131 and p0137 needed O2 Sensors or a Cat, i found out later it was a bad ground that was going from the valve cover to the chassis, I only have left 1 code which is the P0341 & when it warms up the studdering gets worse. Cold temps on the thermo from 0 to 1/4 of the way it runs okay ... its 1/4 to 1/2 way on the temp gauge when it starts acting up, im not sure what im having .. Thermo is okay , I think my problem leads to the distrubator


----------



## Strictly4Boost (Feb 21, 2009)

I've also tried deleting the codes and it deletes , but doesn't come up back unless i shut it off & turn it back on again the code will re appear


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

Strictly4Boost said:


> I've also tried deleting the codes and it deletes , but doesn't come up back unless i shut it off & turn it back on again the code will re appear


 I wish my diagnosis was that easy lol, I have a coil pack, which I replaced with OEM and still...nothing.. when you find this out please let me know what you did.


----------



## Strictly4Boost (Feb 21, 2009)

my guess is you prob have a bad ground some where , im coming down to that my timing is off, i will check tonite , i searched a link how to time the motor, so if i have time later after work i might check to see if the motor is timed with the distrubuator , might be off


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

Im not trying to be the devils advocate here but, how would it be a bad ground if it is temp. related? It runs fine when cold, religiously when it hits 1/4 temp it strictly and never fails to loose power, BUT if it drops below that point, power comes right back


----------



## Samakhan (Oct 1, 2008)

My 99.5 jetta is having the same problem. I replaced the plugs and fixed a vaccum leak and it ran good for about a week and not it runs like crap again. I dont know where to begin. I am goin to check timing this weekend and see if everything is alingned. any othe suggestions?


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

Samakhan said:


> My 99.5 jetta is having the same problem. I replaced the plugs and fixed a vaccum leak and it ran good for about a week and not it runs like crap again. I dont know where to begin. I am goin to check timing this weekend and see if everything is alingned. any othe suggestions?


Let me know how it checks out, does it run fine when cold, if it does I would rule out timing, but you never know.. I checked my timing and it is 100% dead on ...im so lost in this one


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

here is a thought, could it be a exhaust leak? Where my manifold meets my downpipe there is a leak smaller but a def. leak...could that be an issue?


----------



## Samakhan (Oct 1, 2008)

yes thats the thing it runs fine when its cold but when it warms up its a whole diffrent car(runs like crapola) today after work it took a little longer to crank over and it has a new battery in it so i though that was a little odd. I dont have a muffler on it fell off somewhere but im not sure if its leaking anywhere else. I'll have to look into that. Idk why it would throw a cam position sensor code though if it was something like that. I am also thing to replace the fuel filter maybe this weekend and have a feeling it might help a little. could it be the CPS itself is bad and is causing all this?


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

the cam sensor code is most likely coming from the extended cranks, I read for sure that extended cranks can throw this code... and when it is warm you will get extended cranks with this problem...if timing was off.. it would run like that all the time.. i am going to check my filter too.. keep me updated :thumbup:


----------



## skip57 (Nov 7, 2008)

Long cranks could be fuel pressure reg. Did you check the crank timing belt sprocket and key way?


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

fuel pressure regulator is a def. probability for long cranks, but i still am trying to find the problem where it looses power
sprocket and keyway are perfect


----------



## Samakhan (Oct 1, 2008)

I forgot to mention yesterday after work, I wasnt in a great mood and my crappy running 2.0l wasnt making me any happier so i redlined every gear and kept a speed of a bout 100mph for a couple minutes and today when i drove it to work. It ran PERFECT, no misses or loss of power. It was like it fixed itself but the cel is still there and im sure it will run like crap tomorrow. Have you noticed crappy fuel mileage?


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

hmmm.. weird, is it still running good or back to how it was? I did the same thing redlining it one day cuz i was pissed but it ran even ****tier lol


----------



## Samakhan (Oct 1, 2008)

its back to running like a turd. Im tempted to drive it into a wall, it annoys me so much


----------



## jorge r (Apr 27, 2006)

Looks like your're on your own. I thought coolant had to be certain temperature before the ECM kiks in with full control.
The power problem is noticed at certain temperature reading you say. There are two censors in the 4 pin coolant sensors, one for the temp gage and one for the ECM, they can be ohmed for temp/ohm chart verification, surely you've done that. You may have to replace the sensors all over again with genuine oem stuff or better.


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

yeah i know what you mean, sadly I have done so replacing twice on sensors and still nothing..


What could/would affect performance by temp increase? I was thinking about doing a rebuild this summer MAYBE i will get lucky and fix it in the process


----------



## 16V_Scirocco_GTX (Jul 18, 2001)

BTW, did you clean the grounds? Increase in temps leads to higher resistance in wires .. maybe just enough to cause issues. Unrelated issue, but in my case it was the ground to the transmission that had the car acting up.


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

i didnt exactly, where would be a good place to start cleaning the grounds, my thoughts were remove everything but the head, and clean, maintain ect... putting everything back together... im sure i would find it then...This also could be a closed loop issue too


----------



## jorge r (Apr 27, 2006)

I didn't read all the replies, have the intake air temperature sensor and preheated air intake been looked at?


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

the MAF has the air intake temp sensor integrated with it it is the non turbo 2.0 maf is the AIT, which has been replaced twice.. very good assumption though because that would make sense though.. thank you anyway lol


----------



## jorge r (Apr 27, 2006)

How about the preheated intake air, the flap being stuck to hot air, not if you have a cold air intake set up.
Tried experimenting? using your spare coolant sensor plugged in but not mounted; disconnect the battery and let the codes erase themselves and reset the ECM so it learns again; install a fuel pressure gage and monitor the fuel pressure. 
Since nothing is working to solve the problem, you may need to try a different ECM. It's tempting monitoring also with a vag-com tool.


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

I did bypass the coolant on the throttle body in hopes it would help...but nothing...What about the electronic throttle control? any idea that it is the culprit.. I need a vag com.. I have the software just need a reliable cable..


----------



## jorge r (Apr 27, 2006)

Preheated air is a hose that connects the exhaust manifold and the air filter box and vacuum vacuum control. Hot air is switched on when a thermovacuum valve senses cold air, it should not be stuck to hot air.


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

ok i just checked, the only thing attached to the exhaust manifold is the precat o2, noting else.. My model does not even have an EGR valve on it... but the only thing attached is an o2 sensor, thats it... any other ideas?


----------



## jorge r (Apr 27, 2006)

I think you have a spare coolant sensor, I'd unplug the one being used and plug in your spare without mounting it in the flange, and ride. This would show if the coolant temperature is affecting performance.
No preheated intake air? It's a tin shield or plate mounted on the exhaust manifold and a hose/tube connects the tin to the air filter box. I'll ask my neighboor to let me look at his mk4


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

yeah there is nothing  and i tried that a while ago( unplugging my sensor) it had the same symptoms... i replaced both twice, and still nothing different... i'm at a complete dead end


----------



## jorge r (Apr 27, 2006)

A mechanical engine analisis of cylinder leakdown or pressure test, oil pressure test, would determine the engine's condition. With good fuel pressure and delivery volume. The car seems new enough to still have a good engine. With all the electronics involved, must be well orchestrated, with clean and tight connections. When sensors are replaced, it is recommended after the emc's learning process to vag-com the system, I never have, to monitor values and make sure it's zeroed in. Maybe the ecm is having a problem. I hope you're not using those platinum spark plugs which make vw engines run horrible


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

is there a possibility for a ECM reprogram?


----------



## jorge r (Apr 27, 2006)

It's basicaly what you get when you buy a new (performance or stock) chip or eprom, parameters are set in this memory module chip, but the ECM must be able to process each circuit input and output, so all circuits in the ecm needs to be functioning besides the information contained in the chip


----------



## volkswhisperer (Sep 25, 2006)

When warm, It runs as though the temp sensor is not plugged in.
You've replaced sensors and checked wiring.
You've done everything except swap the ECU. It might be the ECU failing when hot.


----------



## Ruggeri5054 (Feb 24, 2009)

I agree, I think that is my next step..easy fix too.. I pulled mine out in 1 min and inspected the harness.. Ill keep an update


----------



## fmeroney (May 29, 2003)

Having the exact issue, any resolution?


----------



## 2be (Jul 24, 2012)

fmeroney said:


> Having the exact issue, any resolution?


Me too, Anyone found out what the problem was?
thanks
//Tobbe


----------



## roadsterred (Feb 25, 2010)

Replace your thermostat before going any further. The ECU receives signals from the engine coolant sensor to determine if the engine is cold, warm, or hot and adjusts the fuel mixture accordingly. Without the thermostat, the engine will not reach the normal operating temperature of 190 degrees (I'm assuming that you have a 190 degrees thermostat).


----------



## El'Zilcho (Jan 24, 2013)

Bump

same damn thing. It's infuriating 

just replaced the Dizzy (whole thing), Wires, plugs, battery, alternator, starter, crank pos sensor, cleaned the MAF and a ton of other stuff. I can usually drive for like an hr before it starts choking on it's self but sometime it's crap off the bat.. like OP said, turn it off and on sometimes it will be fine. other times .. like now for instance it's needs to cool. 

i have checked the wiring but not thoroughly. could this be a fuel pump issue or a throttle pos sensor issue? 
I'm losing my mind with this GD car. i think it want to die in a scrap yard but i'm not giving up on it yet :banghead:


----------



## El'Zilcho (Jan 24, 2013)

roadsterred said:


> Replace your thermostat before going any further. The ECU receives signals from the engine coolant sensor to determine if the engine is cold, warm, or hot and adjusts the fuel mixture accordingly. Without the thermostat, the engine will not reach the normal operating temperature of 190 degrees (I'm assuming that you have a 190 degrees thermostat).


My whole cooling system is freshly rebuilt from the pump to the heater core (and stat).. all new .. dint help at all


----------



## dubvinci (Jan 22, 2007)

El'Zilcho said:


> My whole cooling system is freshly rebuilt from the pump to the heater core (and stat).. all new .. dint help at all


 your engine issues are irrelevant to this thread. the OP has a mk4 non distributor 2.0.


----------

