# So how fast can an APH 1.8T bug get to with mods?



## BalkanDVB (Dec 15, 2004)

I have read that APH 1.8Ts have smaller injectors, smaller turbo, etc.
So about how much Hp/Torque can an APH get to without changing the stock turbo using chip/exhaust/etc.?


----------



## Scarab_Beetle (Dec 11, 2004)

depending on driver skill an APH with a chip and exhaust will probably run mid 14's in the 1/4 mile, between 180 and 200 hp with the chip and maybe another 10-20 hp with exhaust and downpipe. Power isn't everything, most important is driver skill.


----------



## gt2437 (Jul 29, 2000)

*Re: (Scarab_Beetle)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scarab_Beetle* »_depending on driver skill an APH with a chip and exhaust will probably run mid 14's in the 1/4 mile, between 180 and 200 hp with the chip and maybe another 10-20 hp with exhaust and downpipe. Power isn't everything, most important is driver skill.

yep. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Modded aph's with stock K03-044 and the 280cc injectors will put down dyno number's between 160whp and 180whp -- which is ~ 180 -200 hp at the crank.


----------



## luvmygabby (Dec 23, 2004)

I live right down the street from this dealer and they are nortorius for screwing people


----------



## vdubCorrado (Nov 8, 2001)

*Re: (luvmygabby)*

please remember you can alwasy go further than just a chip intake and exhaust... you can put on a new turbo, larger injectors, front mount, APR chip (has to be the actual chip put inside of the computer)... a setup like that you would be looking to hit high 12's... happy with high 12's in a beetle? i would be... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## 1.8T_Moe (Sep 19, 2004)

*Re: (vdubCorrado)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vdubCorrado* »_please remember you can alwasy go further than just a chip intake and exhaust... you can put on a new turbo, larger injectors, front mount, APR chip (has to be the actual chip put inside of the computer)... a setup like that you would be looking to hit high 12's... happy with high 12's in a beetle? i would be... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Only way your gonna hit high 12's in a NB would be with a very extensive BT setup and gutting it all the way. I think the best et I saw for an APR stage 3 NB was a high 13, and that is an awesome setup already. Even if they sprayed, wouldn't hit high 12's.


----------



## gt2437 (Jul 29, 2000)

*Re: (1.8T_Moe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8T_Moe* »_
Even if they sprayed, wouldn't hit high 12's.


----------



## BalkanDVB (Dec 15, 2004)

Thanks for info guys.
Well I know that bigger turbo, etc. can give bigger numbers but I think for the regular daily car it is not necessary to put down thousands for that stuff.
How good do the small upgrades help? Bigger TIP? Turbo S fender liner? K&N? better N75 valve? DV? Bypassing N249? I would like to know the various small steps that are available before actually chipping. Thanks.


----------



## Scarab_Beetle (Dec 11, 2004)

*Re: (1.8T_Moe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8T_Moe* »_Only way your gonna hit high 12's in a NB would be with a very extensive BT setup and gutting it all the way. I think the best et I saw for an APR stage 3 NB was a high 13, and that is an awesome setup already. Even if they sprayed, wouldn't hit high 12's. 

Well, if people have done it in GTI's and any other vw with a 1.8t, why the hell couldn't you do it with an NB? An NB running chip, exhaust, and all the other miscellaneous bolt ons, with a lighter flywheel, stronger clutch, lsd, adjustable suspension and drag radials or slicks should be able to run in the high 13's if the driver is worth a ****. If thats all an APR Stage 3 NB could do the driver behind the wheel was worthless, or there was some other problem, perhaps tires or suspension that were lacking. And just for the record there's at least one NB on the 1.8Tforum that does run 12's... although he does spray.
Anyway Balkan, the TIP i can say from experience made a difference, and any mod that makes more power stock, makes exponentially more power chipped. After the chip though, exhaust is the next biggest power added. Maybe 10 hp on an unchipped car, but I've seen figures from 18-28 hp at the wheels on chipped cars. Personally i don't think the lower intercooler pipe would really make that big of a difference stock, but once you're chipped it may. The S fenderliner isn't so much a power mod, although since it helps to keep the air charge cooler, by default it does make some amount of power. I did it the ghetto way and drilled a cheesegrater pattern of holes in mine, and i couldn't feel a difference. Since i haven't done the exhaust yet (after christmas) the mod that i will say definitely has made the biggest difference on my car (2000 APH) is the N75H valve from ECS tuning. You couldn't pay me to go back to the stock valve. Well i hope this rant has helped you Balkan good luck with your APH!!


----------



## 1.8T_Moe (Sep 19, 2004)

*Re: (Scarab_Beetle)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scarab_Beetle* »_
Well, if people have done it in GTI's and any other vw with a 1.8t, why the hell couldn't you do it with an NB? An NB running chip, exhaust, and all the other miscellaneous bolt ons, with a lighter flywheel, stronger clutch, lsd, adjustable suspension and drag radials or slicks should be able to run in the high 13's if the driver is worth a ****. If thats all an APR Stage 3 NB could do the driver behind the wheel was worthless, or there was some other problem, perhaps tires or suspension that were lacking. And just for the record there's at least one NB on the 1.8Tforum that does run 12's... although he does spray.


My point was, it's gonna take a hell of a lot more than what the other guy said to get to a high 12. He said with a bigger turbo, apr chip, and a front mount that setup would get you to high 12's. Like I said an extensive setup, and then adding all that stuff you said, it is possible, maybe without sprayin. That guy on the 1.8Tforum running a 100 shot with the KO3 might be able to hit a 12.8, but how long you think that will last?
Yeah there are a lot of GTI's etc. hitting 12's. They have a lot more goin for them though. Their aerodynamics are better, and there is so much damn room in the engine bay compared to ours. It's much easier for those guys to fit big stuff, and run bigger/better flowing ic pipes and all that. It's also a lot easier for those guys because the aftermarket scene offers a ****load more for them then the NB. Plus those guys are busting out Lemiwinks and doing a lot of custom work changing A/F ratios, timing, etc. It's not like they're throwing on their BT kits and hitting 12's, there's much more to it than that.
There just aren't that many people out there with NB's going that hardcore, which is why you don't see more hitting much lower then 14's. I mean look at those guys running 12's in their old Dodge Caravans. It can be done, but when reliability becomes an issue most people stop modding.
Oh and for the record, I NEVER said you couldn't do it, and that it hasn't been done, with an NB. 












_Modified by 1.8T_Moe at 5:11 PM 12-23-2004_


----------



## BalkanDVB (Dec 15, 2004)

Excellent stuff. Thanks scarab/moe.
Yea I just think putting nitrous, bigger turbos,etc. and getting "twelves" is just overworking an engine that is not built for that much. I mean cmon its only 4 cylinders! There aint no substitute for cubic centimetres! So that would probably lower the life on the engine.
As for my aph, I just have a k&n, removed snowbox, and better vacuum hoses. That being said, I just want to open up some options and see whats available for aph.
By the way, all these horsepowers confuse me. BHP = Brake horespower? is that at the flywheel? Is this where vw rates their cars? If someone has a link to clear up all these measurements would be good.


----------



## 1.8T_Moe (Sep 19, 2004)

*Re: (BalkanDVB)*

The 1.8T is actually a very well built tough engine. It could handle most you throw at it if you really wanted to get big numbers, before ever building up internals. A 100 shot is pretty nuts, especially on a stock turbo. I don't believe in the "it's only four cylinders", especially when talking about the 1.8T, but I know what you mean I live in domestic land.
yeah bhp is at the flywheel, like whp is wheel horespower(not tryin to be a smart ass). So where yours says 150hp, you lose some of that and put out probably like 130 at the wheels. BUT, a lot of early 1.8T's, like the APH came out way underrated. I read an article a long time ago and they dyno'd a stock 1.8T before mods to get the starting horsepower and it had 150 at the wheels. THat's more like 170 bhp. Not sure of a site that can help you out with all that though.
Almost any bolt on you put on the 1.8T will help, so you can't really go wrong with whatever you pick. You can check the link in my sig to see what I've got. 
Also if you haven't already check out http://www.newbeetle.org awesome place.
Good luck.


----------



## pittbug (Jun 13, 2004)

About 2 or 3 yrs ago some guy in Vegas ran a 100 shot in his beetle and did a 12.3... I'll try and hunt down the post...

edit: my bad... [email protected] scroll to the bottom of this post:
http://forums.newbeetle.org/sh...=6714


_Modified by pittbug at 10:21 PM 12-23-2004_


----------



## BalkanDVB (Dec 15, 2004)

So what does VW use to rate? BHP or WHP?


----------



## 1.8T_Moe (Sep 19, 2004)

*Re: (BalkanDVB)*

Sorry, vw uses bhp.


----------



## KrGs_MrN-Kusinagi0 (Dec 9, 2003)

*Re: So how fast can an APH 1.8T bug get to with mods? (BalkanDVB)*

yea i have aph and
listen..
the 280cc injectors are that rate at 3 bar.
if you put 4 bar in its basically like having 310s..
i see hondas with stock injectors put down over 200 at the wheels easy..

Also i totally believe the aph is underated i smoke my friends gsr then again he cant drive but still he has bolt on mods and skunk cams..
and he said he dynoed like i want to say he said 175 and like 120 something torque...
on the highway my car feels stronger.
i bought a set of tt injectors but i dont have them installed because i dont have software for them..
APh has 9.5.1 compression
the turbo just sucks..
the k03 non sport is kinda weak
k04 is worth it on these cars but if you want more power then go with 28rs
im gonna get the garret kit i decided basiaclly atp kit
it dynoed i think 227 or226 at the wheels stock with 55mm downpipe..
and 242 torque..
thats all the power i want so thats why im getting it


----------



## BalkanDVB (Dec 15, 2004)

So what is this thing .. "If you are a good driver" ?
How might one be a "good driver?"


----------



## Scarab_Beetle (Dec 11, 2004)

*Re: (BalkanDVB)*

Lol... there's not set standards for a "good driver" but obviously if two people take turns driving the same car, one of them is going to get faster times than the other... Its all about how well a driver knows his vehicle.... the best launch technique, the proper shift points, how fast you can shift etc... and that's just for drag racing... get involved in autocross or road racing and you get into other techniques like the heel-toe downshifting, taking the proper racing line, etc....
For instance, i have two friends that both drive chevy cavaliers with the same options and the same engines, and almost identical modifications. Until recently, one of them was running 15.8's while the other was running 16.02's.... eventually the slower guy figured out he was launching at too low of an rpm and when he changed his technique, he was runing 15.8's. 
What makes a better driver is a combination of things. Obviously reflexes and hand-eye coordination play a big role, but also the level of the drivers knowledge (does he/she know where the powerband drops off so that he can shift at the appropriate point? does he/she know where the peak torque of the engine is? can he/she "feel" what's going on in the car, know that the tires are grabbing or spinning, wheel-hopping or so on...),


----------



## BalkanDVB (Dec 15, 2004)

As always Scarab, thanks for the informative reply.
When I try to do "ultra fast shifting" from first gear, up to about 5K rpm, and then depress the clutch all the way as fast as I can and shifting to 2nd.. it takes a bit of time for 2nd to slot in. Why is this >? how can I improve the time the shifter actually goes into a gear?


----------



## Scarab_Beetle (Dec 11, 2004)

only two things i know of can really help with shift speeds, first is to switch gear oils.... a lot of people switch to synthetic but its important to stay pretty close to the original viscosity because the oil is designed as a cushion to prevent wear of the gears... if you use oil thats too thin, it gives too much clearance and will cause wear. Too thick and shifting will be even more difficult, especially in cold weather. Then there is always a short-throw shifter kit, which reduces the distance the shifter has to travel to engage the gears, and by default makes shifting faster. I know what you're talking about with taking time to slot in, mine is a little tricky on third for some reason or another, and i end up grinding really bad if i'm not paying attention trying to quick-shift


----------



## Scarab_Beetle (Dec 11, 2004)

hey Balkan, just out of curiosity, have you run at a track yet? I was shifting at 6500 until recently... then someone told me that was way too high (something i should have known or at least thought of beforehand). I haven't tried shifting at 55-6000 at the track yet but i'm hoping to see some better times when i do. I was just curious if you've baselined your car yet.


----------



## BalkanDVB (Dec 15, 2004)

No I haven't went to track yet.. but I have seen stock horsepower and torque charts for 150 hp 1.8T and I think that the best point to shift is 5500 because if you go over than it loses torque according to the chart presentation. (This chart is at the APR website for it's ecu upgrade) But if your not stock than it might be a bit different. Probably the best way to find out is analyze your own dyno stats because it shows a graphical presentation for your own car. 


_Modified by BalkanDVB at 8:40 PM 12-27-2004_


----------



## 1.8T_Moe (Sep 19, 2004)

*Re: (BalkanDVB)*

One mod that really improved shifting on my car were aftermarket dogbone inserts. I think Scarab has this also. It made shifting a billion times smoother for me. Cheap and easy mod too. 
As for getting into gears quickest, practice a lot. Going into third always used to be the one that seemed to give me trouble, sometimes second. Just have to find the right amount of time before putting it into gear after putting the clutch in. Once you get the whole timing thing down it's cake. 
I never got to try shifting at around 5500 at the track either. Best time I ran stock was 15.3. Last spring I ran a 14.7 with chip, intake, exhaust and I think I had dogbone inserts then. That was my first run of the day and then it rained. Haven't been back to the track since then. With all the stuff I have now, especially with my new clutch I can probably hit at least a 14.5 maybe a little lower, if I could get a decent 60'.
Only thing I can say is you only have to worry about shifting twice, cause at the end of the 1/4 you're hitting the end of 3rd. But my car is a gazillion times faster at a roll so I'm more into that sort of "spirited" driving


----------



## Scarab_Beetle (Dec 11, 2004)

Moe, I can't believe i forgot to mention the bushings.... Lol, yes indeed they have probably been the most noticeable mod yet, DEFINITELY made shifting easier, after they settle in for a few days, the vibration isn't as bad as when you first put them in either... or maybe that's just getting used to them. I would imagine that in addition to the dogbone inserts, the upper trans mount and upper engine mount would also work well, but judging from the ride of my friend's 2.4L Neon with full urethane mounts, there will be A LOT of vibration.
Moe, would you mind giving me us a quick rundown of your quarter mile technique? Launch RPM, clutch technique on launch, and shift points specifically.
I was launching at 3000 rpm, pretty close to just dropping the clutch, and shifting at 6500, cutting 2.29 60' and with a 15.69 et. that was before the Samco TIP and filter, with those i ran 15.64 but with a way crappier 60', like 2.4 or something(the track was so cold there were gobs of dragslick goo from the full drag cars coming UP onto my tires, throwing them out of balance... traction sucked that day). I'm just trying to get different techniques, test them out and then compose a really good writeup about APH drag racing.
So far i've been told by someone else who ran 15.3 to launch at 3500 with a hard clutch drop, and shift at 5200 rpm. She was stock though, with the N75H and the Samco TIP i think i should certainly be revving out to at least 5500, maybe 5800 but i'd wager any higher and i'm past the powerband.


----------



## 1.8T_Moe (Sep 19, 2004)

*Re: (Scarab_Beetle)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Scarab_Beetle* »_
Moe, would you mind giving me us a quick rundown of your quarter mile technique? Launch RPM, clutch technique on launch, and shift points specifically.


Well, the number one thing is make sure ASR is off. Usually launching at 3k maybe a tad more but no more than 3500 for sure, works best for me. It's really touchy, too little it bogs and too much lights up the tires. I never let the clutch out all the way at once, if I did that I would just sit there and spin. I found it was always best to sort of evenly let out the clutch as you apply gas. You've got to feather the clutch out until you're going without breaking traction, then just floor it and go. I shifted, as fast as possible, right before redline every time I was at the track. I'd like to try the shifting at 5500, but I haven't been back to the track. 60' times always hurt me the most, I usually had 2.4's, and most good 1.8T times I've seen have about a 2.2. If I could nail the launch to get a good 60' I'd be happy as hell.
I think tires make a big difference too. The 15.3 I ran was with about 20k on the stock tires, and they were still really good then. My friends always commented on how well my car just took off. When I went back, my tires probably had about 40k on them and I couldn't launch for crap. Of course once you're chipped that makes a world of difference too. The torque increase makes launching a new learning experience all over again. 
I had my '98 2.0 for two years before I got my 1.8T that I've had for at least 2 years, so I've had a while and lots of practice to get used to clutch/shifting of the cars. Besides the difference in power and gear ratios, they shift and feel the same.
Hope that helps, let me know if you've got any questions.


----------



## BalkanDVB (Dec 15, 2004)

hmm so you dont hold at 3000 rpm, floor it and then feather the clutch for minimum wheelspin? I thought this was the way to do it.


----------



## Scarab_Beetle (Dec 11, 2004)

moe thats awesome, you think you could find a slip and scan it up?


----------



## 1.8T_Moe (Sep 19, 2004)

*Re: (BalkanDVB)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BalkanDVB* »_hmm so you dont hold at 3000 rpm, floor it and then feather the clutch for minimum wheelspin? I thought this was the way to do it.

No kind of like the more I let out the clutch the more I push on the gas. Kind of try to do that evenly. But this is what works for me, you might be able to find a better method that suits you.
Scarab, I have no idea what I did with my old slips....But. I'm switching rooms in my apt. cause my roommate moved out so chances are I might come across them. If I do I can definitly scan one. Hopefully I can find them.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## BlueSleeper (Nov 9, 2002)

*Re: (BalkanDVB)*

I just dump the clutch at about 5k rpms and floor it... a little wheelspin but it stops after about 2-3 seconds


----------



## gt2437 (Jul 29, 2000)

*Re: (BlueSleeper)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlueSleeper* »_I just dump the clutch at about 5k rpms and floor it... a little wheelspin but it stops after about 2-3 seconds


----------



## Scarab_Beetle (Dec 11, 2004)

lol, funny i seem to remember you having one of those nifty HPA setups? Or was that someone else lol.


----------

