# Kugelfischer injection



## dougkehl (Nov 30, 2011)

I know this is a far stretch, but does anyone know of any good sites to read about this type of injection?

I only ask because I'm getting ready to build my 16v motor for my mk1 rabbit convertible. And I was planning to go with weber carbs, but I found a Kugelfischer pump from a BMW 2002tii for cheap and I've always thought it would be sick to have a car running off it because it's a pretty rare system to see anymore. I feel it would be unique to say the least.

If anyone knows of anywhere or anyone I could talk to thanks a ton!


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Is it in working order?

Definitely would be a very unique build. I hear they are a maintenance nightmare though because no one knows jack about them anymore. Tough as nails though. Wouldn't know the first thing about tuning them seeing they are all mechanical.

Pre post-edit: I googled a bit and they seem overly complicated for some fairly rough tuning, but should give slightly better results than carbs, but like twice the effort. The key is to make sure all of your pieces are 100% clean and all injectors are clean. No corrosion, and the pump is strong. Almost looks like you require a dyno to tune. Like impossible without. 

Heres what I found: http://www.jc42.dial.pipex.com/alpina/Injection/kugelfischer_injection_Description.htm


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## dougkehl (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks! And yes it was just pulled out of a running car!! I practically crapped my pants..

But I had done a bit of reading myself prior to posting this and it seemed to me that it would be slightly more efficient than carbs, but like you said, twice the work.. Further more, the price of new injectors for that system is just absolutely ridiculous from BMW.. So I would hope there is some way to clean them. 

I more or less want to do it for the immense cool factor of it.. It would absolutely awesome to have it with some ITB's. The only VW's I've seen it in are some European Rabbit and Scirocco track cars..

I guess I'll just have to see what I can find about it.. It might be rad, but to gather all the parts I'm gonna need for it, it might not be worth it haha.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Very cool, if you can make it work and keep it working. Those are some serious injection pressures at the nozzles. That fuel is going to be atomized nicely. 

Did you get everything or just the pump?


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

Any reason to not go with fuel injected ITBs and modern fuel injection?


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## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

Lucas and Bosch also made systems similar to K fish. Not a very reliable system unless you pay a Tii guru to adjust and set everything. A friend had a 2002 Tii that he would take in for service every 3 months just to have the system adjusted and this was with a rebuilt injector pump. Too many moving parts to be reliable. I am not trying to crush any dreams but that was what available in 1972 and it is 2013. Use a Lugtronic or some other EFi system with a lot less moving parts. Sell that stuff to a BMW knucklehead. umpkin:


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## dougkehl (Nov 30, 2011)

ps2375 said:


> Very cool, if you can make it work and keep it working. Those are some serious injection pressures at the nozzles. That fuel is going to be atomized nicely.
> 
> Did you get everything or just the pump?


It would just be the pump and injectors  So sourcing the rest of the stuff would without a doubt take some serious time and serching.



bonesaw said:


> Any reason to not go with fuel injected ITBs and modern fuel injection?


Cool factor would be my main reason to do this as opposed to ITB's with modern fuel injection. It's such a rare thing to see now adays. Even on the old bimmers that they came on. 



eurotrashrabbit said:


> Lucas and Bosch also made systems similar to K fish. Not a very reliable system unless you pay a Tii guru to adjust and set everything. A friend had a 2002 Tii that he would take in for service every 3 months just to have the system adjusted and this was with a rebuilt injector pump. Too many moving parts to be reliable. I am not trying to crush any dreams but that was what available in 1972 and it is 2013. Use a Lugtronic or some other EFi system with a lot less moving parts. Sell that stuff to a BMW knucklehead. umpkin:


Yeah this is sorta what I've been reading.. It's not that it can't be reliable, but to keep it reliable means constant attention just to keep it in good working order. And don't worry you're not crushing any dreams lol. I wanted to carb this motor from the start, and then this came up and I was just like now that would be something rad that no one has. And I'm still highly considering EFI on ITB's as well..

But since posting this thread I have come to the conclusion through reading on some 2002 Tii forums, unless you have deep pockets and are willing to shell out money, it's not worth it. I want to do it, but I'm not made of money and parts for these pumps are incredibly expensive.. I found brand new injectors on BMW's parts page and they were like a few hundred bucks an injector!!!! :screwy: 

So all in all, I'm gonna stay away from this haha.


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## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

Is it just me or is this like how a diesel injection pump/setup is like?

kinda neat.


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## dougkehl (Nov 30, 2011)

wantacad said:


> Is it just me or is this like how a diesel injection pump/setup is like?
> 
> kinda neat.


I think it's similar. 

I know pretty much nothing about diesel pumps, but the Kugelfischer pump is pretty similar to a small motor. The fuel goes into the pump. The pump has a camshaft which drives tappets which from there drive plungers/pistons. The plungers/pistons are driven down by springs, which opens the suction valve and gas is then sucked into the cylinder of the plunger/piston. Then the camshaft drives the tappet up which then drives the plunger/piston up and causes the delivery valve to open. The fuel then exits the pump into the lines at very high pressure.


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## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Probably similar to how the Hillborn injection systems work. Was talking to the owner of a local crankshaft shop about his drag car will a Hillborn system on it. He has even street driven that car at one time with that injection, some crazy stuff.


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## eurotrashrabbit (Oct 25, 2001)

Check out KWLs a1 golf on youtube. It uses an oettinger 16v with throttle bodies. Really cool car at goodwood


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## dougkehl (Nov 30, 2011)

ps2375 said:


> Probably similar to how the Hillborn injection systems work. Was talking to the owner of a local crankshaft shop about his drag car will a Hillborn system on it. He has even street driven that car at one time with that injection, some crazy stuff.


 I need to read more on Hillborn Injection. I know nothing about it really. 



eurotrashrabbit said:


> Check out KWLs a1 golf on youtube. It uses an oettinger 16v with throttle bodies. Really cool car at goodwood


 I have a butt ton of pictures of that car. It is a really cool car. I looked into them for the Kugelfischer stuff because I know they have an 8v Scirocco that runs off Kugelfischer as well.


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## OutGolfin (May 23, 2012)

dougkehl said:


> I need to read more on Hillborn Injection. I know nothing about it really.


 Hilborn injection is awesome! Dad has one on his falcon. Mid 11 second gasser!


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## 92_MK_2 (Oct 11, 2010)

goals opcorn:


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