# EFR Anatomy



## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Its that time of the year and I've been knee deep in tax papers. Unfortunately, a busy work schedule has me pushing paperwork off to the side until just about the very last moment...for months . Anyways, having the need for a break and curious for the last week about a Borg Warner box sitting by my desk, I decided to forgo the coffee break and just go into my garage to snap some pics...

EFR 6758 w/ a GTX3071R comparo

This is how the BW comes out of the box










This turbo has a 6 blade compressor wheel.










Comp housing w/ DV removed










Here is the very simple DV unit. I've seen these over a decade ago on something else, I cant recall what...










Turbine wheel comparison. The blades on the turbine are thicker but do seem lighter. TiAL is brittle at room temperature so needs the beefiness...










Top view.. The size scale is a little skewed as the BW is definitely longer. Just showing profiling and design...










Turbine housing comparo. Again, the BW has a very long discharge which skews the scale. But they are very similar in size and I would think volume.










Backside










I have to say, this makes me want to forget about external gating










Again...










Angled merge out of the Inlet throat area.










BW left GTX71R right










Side view










Just for giggles, I laid the GTX comp over the 6758 inducer and its pretty much identical in diameter










Vice Versa










With a few modifications and boring, the FSI D valve fits










With some turbine flange machining on our end, we'll match it to our manifold setups and test it out.










With some mods to the comp housing


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## cincyTT (May 11, 2006)

That is impressive. Any ideas why BW went from a 7 blade to 6 blade design while the gtx went from 6 to 10 blades?


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## theswoleguy (Jan 25, 2006)

nice


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

LOL U said u want to forget about external wastegates:thumbup::beer:


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Well, Garrett decided to do away w/ the minor blade and brought everything up to the same level. Not entirely sure. As for BW, on a comp wheel this size, there was really no need for the extra blade.


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## Dub-Nub (Sep 27, 2005)

sex :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Big_Tom said:


> LOL U said u want to forget about external wastegates:thumbup::beer:


I've always liked CLEAN oem'ish packaging. I was never one that cared about putting on sunglasses before opening the hood. Function over fashion :thumbup:


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

Thanks for the in depth look Arnold :thumbup:


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)




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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

I have two gigantic pdf tech manual and brochure for 2011 which includes EFR information. Anything pertinent as we go along, I'll post it here...


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## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

can you tell more about the FSI D valve and what it is and the benefits?

thanks

db


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

derekb727 said:


> can you tell more about the FSI D valve and what it is and the benefits?
> 
> thanks
> 
> db


This is purely a plug n play example for the FSI crowd, but it would be an interesting idea to adapt it to other platforms


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## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

that would be really great if it worked.

do you know the limits of the EFR boost solenoid? and how it should work on the 1.8t platform


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Its a generic GM 3 port solenoid. It can be controlled via most standalones or ecu's that can control an external solenoid. Not sure if ME7 can control it. If it can, WG duty would need to be scaled along w/ several different parameters I'm sure. The GM boost solenoid is reliable and quick. I have used them in the past and they do work great


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## hunterkb (Nov 20, 2009)

these are so attractive. but it looks like the new BW turbos are going to take up so much room


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## mescaline (Jul 15, 2005)

So you package this really nice and get eurodyne to tune for that efr solenoid...damn you got a perfect turbokit...especially with your new stainless steel manifolds... can you v-band EFR?


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## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

mescaline said:


> So you package this really nice and get eurodyne to tune for that efr solenoid...damn you got a perfect turbokit...especially with your new stainless steel manifolds... can you v-band EFR?


vband what the in or out?


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## mescaline (Jul 15, 2005)

everything...


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

mescaline said:


> can you v-band EFR?


That is the idea :thumbup:


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## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

why would you want to if there is a TS option? much faster spool with the TS vs a vband or t3/t4


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I've always liked CLEAN oem'ish packaging. I was never one that cared about putting on sunglasses before opening the hood. Function over fashion :thumbup:


I agree 100%. i was about to piece together an internal wastegate t3/t4 50 trim setup from atp parts before i found the kit i have in the used classifieds. i prefer internal wastegates, but before this EEEEVVVVRRRYYYBOODDDYYY says go external :laugh:


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## cincyTT (May 11, 2006)

mescaline said:


> So you package this really nice and get eurodyne to tune for that efr solenoid...damn you got a perfect turbokit...especially with your new stainless steel manifolds... can you v-band EFR?


you would lose the internal wastegate and bpv. Plus add in like $400+ for the housings and you are out $2k for a turbo and need both parts you just replaced. :screwy:


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

I never really minded internal gates but they do creep at times due to the ports being 90deg's from the exhaust stream (not a concern w/ turbos w/ a lot of backpressure) and therefore tricky boost control issues. External gates can also have this problem if they are positioned off a very long neck and flow going against the grain of exhaust flow as well. But this seems pretty ideal. What better place to put a wastegate discharge but right at the turbine housing inlet at a 45ish deg angle and opening up to a low pressure chamber, out a relatively large hole? This is a high pressure area which, when relieved, readily exits into the area of least resistance.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

cincyTT said:


> you would lose the internal wastegate and bpv. Plus add in like $400+ for the housings and you are out $2k for a turbo and need both parts you just replaced. :screwy:


I'm going to retain the bpv and internal gate and augmenting the existing oem housing to vband. It requires quite a bit of work on our side, but whatever it takes :thumbup:


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

cincyTT said:


> That is impressive. Any ideas why BW went from a 7 blade to 6 blade design while the gtx went from 6 to 10 blades?


Garrett went to a full length 10 blade to cut down on noise. But when your looking for performance who cares if the turbo makes less noise. lol


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Its an 11 blade. Well, the minors are responsible for the noise only in anti-surge housings as the slot is cut right above this. As the blade spins, it pulls in air through this slot and acts like a whistle. By elongating the blade, the flow path of air pulled in hugs the profile of a long path which doesnt concentrate around the slot area... makes sense, but the noise thing only applies to anti-surge housings. In the brochure, it states efficiency. Usually, the more blades, the better the response and its definitely a diesel way of thinking... I think they might've gone a tad overboard on the GTX series in this size where it creates more resistance and negates response benefits


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## HalvieCuw (Mar 20, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Its an 11 blade. Well, the minors are responsible for the noise only in anti-surge housings as the slot is cut right above this. As the blade spins, it pulls in air through this slot and acts like a whistle. By elongating the blade, the flow path of air pulled in hugs the profile of a long path which doesnt concentrate around the slot area... makes sense, but the noise thing only applies to anti-surge housings. In the brochure, it states efficiency. Usually, the more blades, the better the response and its definitely a diesel way of thinking... I think they might've gone a tad overboard on the GTX series in this size where it creates more resistance and negates response benefits


Be response you mean spool time right? Any truth to the people saying the gtx3071 spools like a gt3076? Kind of disappointing if true.


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## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

there is so much great stuff being tested this winter. 
with the tb stuff finally getting finished up with INA
to the intake mani testing about to start with INA
to these new bw efr and garrett gtx series comparisons with Pagparts, DM Forged, and Redline
to maestro getting more and more followers and ease of tuning

am i missing anything?

2011 is looking to be a really good year for the 1.8t. sucks i am gonna miss it but i will just let all you guys make all the mistakes so that i dont have to. so thanks guys for saving me a little bit of stress!!!

just wanted to share how hype i am to start seeing all this testing get underway!!


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

HalvieCuw said:


> Be response you mean spool time right? Any truth to the people saying the gtx3071 spools like a gt3076? Kind of disappointing if true.


That seems to be what the subaru guys found out. 
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2034214


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## FTMFW (Jan 1, 2008)

I'm sorry, but that TiAL V-band housing is just sexy... 


























just my .02


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

FYI Arnold the DV design was originally from Porsche, it was very utilitarian and made to be easily swapped, hence the plastic cap and basic bolts. AWE made/makes a copy they released a few years ago as well (I know you care so much about them ). 

Also, would there be any way to produce a piston DV, in case those membranes end up being fragile?


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## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

FTMFW said:


> I'm sorry, but that TiAL V-band housing is just sexy...
> 
> 
> 
> just my .02


 
I agree in those pictures, 

but the EFR Twin Scroll housing's are [email protected]*&$% HOTTTT


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## GLI_jetta (Jan 3, 2006)

I do love my tial unit.. and at this stage of the game I'm in.. would it even be worth the extra $$ to change an EFR friendly setup?


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Well, that is debatable. On a side note, while i finish fixturing this EFR housing to vband (tricky), here is a dyno that i ran across for the newer GTX76R. 34psi on Ford Focus 2.0L Zetec on E85...


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

Man how are you cutting this thing down to a Vband Arnold? Please post some more pics when you've got the time.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

I'll post pics when its finished. Its def not for the squeamish. Setting up a fixture and machining a complex hard shape like 300 series ss and profiling carbide bits isnt my fave activity. Its def a thought process...


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Had to do it a bit differently.. but here it is....


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## Dub-Nub (Sep 27, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Had to do it a bit differently.. but here it is....



that looks freaking sick, who is the lucky bastard that is getting the turbo on the car?!?!


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## One-Eight GTI (Jan 5, 2010)

Damn Al you have been busy, Looks GREAT:thumbup:


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

One-Eight GTI said:


> Damn Al you have been busy, Looks GREAT:thumbup:


Heck Yea!:thumbup::beer:


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

Anyone got dibs on the EFR? I'm sure you're pairing that w/ one of the new SS setups right?


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Thanks guys. This is my R&D piece so I got dibs . But, yes, this will be paired w/ my new setups as well as my old if one is so inclined.


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## Zneith (Jan 4, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks guys. This is my R&D piece so I got dibs . But, yes, this will be paired w/ my new setups as well as my old if one is so inclined.


Havent really been into turbo's for that long, but I must say, this is very impressive:thumbup: I've read about these not too long ago when I first heard about them and couldn't wait to get some actual pictures. Looks very fun. :thumbup:'s up to newer hardware


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## LA7VJetta (Jul 21, 2009)

updates?


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## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

production release date set back again....to april


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

These things are very scarce right now. Hype has definitely exceeded availability. As for this particular unit, we are in the midst of a move but once settled in, will be testing it shortly :beer:

It'll be first tested on an FSI most likely


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

wow, that looks great Al!


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> here is a dyno that i ran across for the newer GTX76R. 34psi on Ford Focus 2.0L Zetec on E85...




Looks pretty much exactly like a GT3582r.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Very similar, but I think the AEB heads w/ cams would flow better then the Zetec...

This is a 2.0L 35R w/ intake, cams, AEB head on, whaddya know?... 34psi 615whp on my vbanded kit


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

Yeah it looks very close to my GT35 2 liter dyno, AEB with Schrick 252/260 cams. Only difference is mine is AWD and 37psi but completely out of fuel.


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## DBVeeDB (Aug 3, 2007)

Arnold,

Im an accoutnant, ill do your taxes for free parts. haha Good info :thumbup:

-Devin


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

In the end, EFR availability is what drove me to the GTX series and in particular the 3076. That and there just simply isn't enough data out there to back the claims. GTX's are starting to pop up and as the graph above show's they are clearly capable of making solid power.

I'm sure the EFR line is going to perform but I've got a solid feeling the real benefits are going to be with transient response not base spool. I'd bet within 300 maybe 500rpm for same frame size.

EFR's offer a lot with regards to simple clean package though. Really well done. I'm really interested to see how they stack up once they become available. 

April or June.... :laugh:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

delicious:beer::beer:


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

I have to agree with regards to the 76graph looking like the listed 35R graphs. Clearly the new GTX3076 is flowing. 



Solid numbers all around.


Scary :thumbup:


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

Fast929 said:


> In the end, EFR availability is what drove me to the GTX series and in particular the 3076. That and there just simply isn't enough data out there to back the claims. GTX's are starting to pop up and as the graph above show's they are clearly capable of making solid power.
> 
> I'm sure the EFR line is going to perform but I've got a solid feeling the real benefits are going to be with transient response not base spool. I'd bet within 300 maybe 500rpm for same frame size.
> 
> ...


There is already a graph showing a GT35r vs a 8374 just at 15psi, the 8374 spooled quicker and made more power. The T25 and T3 housing EFR's have been out for a few months now.

As for the GTX, the graphs just prove they just spool up and make power like a GT turbo that is 1 size larger. This is why the GTX3076 spools up and makes power like a 35r, so this means a GTX3071r is going to spool and make power like a GT30r and the GTX35r is going to spool even later then a GT35r. So in the end just bumping each one up 1 size. Yes you end up making more power but going with a larger GT turbo would do the same thing.


Here is the graph of the GT35r vs EFR 8374. Both using a T3 housing.












> Next we have an independant dyno comparison @15psi boost pressure:
> 
> Green Line: EFR 8374 .83 a/r (42mm internal-WG)
> VS.
> ...


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

exactly!!! you could've gotten a better deal on a none gtx turbo, jus gone bigger int he regular GT series


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

Audi2ptzero said:


> There is already a graph showing a GT35r vs a 8374 just at 15psi, the 8374 spooled quicker and made more power. The T25 and T3 housing EFR's have been out for a few months now.
> 
> As for the GTX, the graphs just prove they just spool up and make power like a GT turbo that is 1 size larger. This is why the GTX3076 spools up and makes power like a 35r, so this means a GTX3071r is going to spool and make power like a GT30r and the GTX35r is going to spool even later then a GT35r. So in the end just bumping each one up 1 size. Yes you end up making more power but going with a larger GT turbo would do the same thing.
> 
> ...



I've already seen this graph and agree it's pretty good for a low boost setup. The issue I have is, lets see what they do at higher PR's.... To make sure everyone understands, this is a GT35 not the newer tech so comparo's aside, I'd still like to see apples to apples.

Regarding the late spool, not sure where people are seeing the later spool.

Perrin for example. Actuall controlled real world testing back to back.....

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2110277

With regards to the T25/T3 EFR's being out, why no dynos????


Listen, I'm all for the EFR's and hope they work great. I had a deposite ready to go on one and the release date just kept getting pushed back. In the end, I chose to go GTX and see where it gets me. I happen to still think there are PTE offerings that can also get the same work done for an affordable price.


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

Not sure why there aren't any T25/T3 EFR dyno plots yet, the first 2 full shipments to Full-Race were all presold and went out once they came in and that was back in Dec/Jan. 

1 issue is that the EFR turbos are much longer then the GT's, kind of just like how the PTE's are longer then the GT's. 

I would have loved to do a EFR 8374 open T3 housing on my car so I could compare it vs my GT35r. I guess I could always do that and then just swap the TS housing onto it afterwards.


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

I agree 100%! I just wanna see the data... I love the tech. It's just tough to cough up 2K+ based on white papers.....

I would bet (just speculation) that the EFR's "may" suffer in total flow at the limit somewhat. Soley based on what I've seen. If you look at the Sierra Sierra setup (I know, high elevation, tuning, cams, bla) but that torque is falling off in a hurry! 


Theoretically that new GTX35R could/should be able to make an additional ~ 100whp vs the GT based on the compressor map. Hence why I'd like to see back to backs.


Too me, your 35R setup is still kicking arse either way. :thumbup:


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## Fast929 (Nov 13, 2004)

Arnold and I spoke about the EFR sizing as well. It's also several pounds heavier as well.


Not that I think it'll be a huge deal one way or the other (certainly not for me).


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## FTMFW (Jan 1, 2008)

Look, I feel dumb for having to ask but could someone tell me what the spool difference and characteristics would be between a .84 T3 single scroll and a .92 T4 twin scroll?

IE: Which spools faster, hold top end better, responds to throttle better/faster?


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/5633320-post166.html 

http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/2-0l-lnf-performance-tech-153/zzp-builds-best-lnf-mod-ever-244457/


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

FTMFW said:


> Look, I feel dumb for having to ask but could someone tell me what the spool difference and characteristics would be between a .84 T3 single scroll and a .92 T4 twin scroll?
> 
> IE: Which spools faster, hold top end better, responds to throttle better/faster?


 I talked to Geoff at Full-Race about this a few times, he says the TS T4 .92 will spool up quicker then the open T3.


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## theswoleguy (Jan 25, 2006)

18T_BT said:


> http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/5633320-post166.html
> 
> http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/2-0l-lnf-performance-tech-153/zzp-builds-best-lnf-mod-ever-244457/


 wow and e85, nasty freakin torque


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## FTMFW (Jan 1, 2008)

Audi2ptzero said:


> I talked to Geoff at Full-Race about this a few times, he says the TS T4 .92 will spool up quicker then the open T3.


Thanks man! I appreciate that.


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## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

word is it that the stock wastegate actuator is only good for 16-17 lbs, can you confirm this? Thats what i heard on the 7670 atleast.


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

derekb727 said:


> word is it that the stock wastegate actuator is only good for 16-17 lbs, can you confirm this? Thats what i heard on the 7670 atleast.


Yes. All of the EFR's come stock with the mid boost wg actuator. If you want to run more then that they offer a high boost actuator which is an added option. So if you order it the turbo comes with 2 actutors and you just swap them.

Also what most people dont know is the EFR turbo doesn't come with the discharge BW V-band clamp or flange. Those are sold separately.


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## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

Audi2ptzero said:


> Yes. All of the EFR's come stock with the mid boost wg actuator. If you want to run more then that they offer a high boost actuator which is an added option. So if you order it the turbo comes with 2 actutors and you just swap them.
> 
> Also what most people dont know is the EFR turbo doesn't come with the discharge BW V-band clamp or flange. Those are sold separately.



So you have to get the vband flange that welds to the downpipe and the vband clamp.


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

derekb727 said:


> So you have to get the vband flange that welds to the downpipe and the vband clamp.


Correct and it isn't the standard type of V-band. The flange is $33 and the clamp is $38. (corrected) 

But if your buying the down pipe that is made by Full-Race it should already have the V-band flange on it and come with the clamp.


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## derekb727 (Dec 22, 2007)

Audi2ptzero said:


> Correct and it isn't the standard type of V-band. The flange is $28 and the clamp is $33.
> 
> But if your buying the down pipe that is made by Full-Race it should already have the V-band flange on it and come with the clamp.


You are correct thanks!

also, the high boost actuator is an additional cost for those curious. unless someone puts a nice little kit together for everything you need


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

derekb727 said:


> You are correct thanks!
> 
> also, the high boost actuator is an additional cost for those curious. unless someone puts a nice little kit together for everything you need


It will still be an extra cost because every EFR shipped out from BW has the medium boost wg on it already.


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## Sosl0w (Aug 21, 2003)

bump for new info. :beer:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

no truly new info.RAI has a kit..but for longitudinal, it makes power fast and low in the RPM's..for a MKI..not so bueno.

their $$$, the are trick and awesome, but....so far....not incredibly ground breaking gains and such.
i wanna see the larger frame efr's that are supposed to spool like a 3071...and make their 35r-ish power..cos the comps claimed it as well..and yeah...beter but not as stated, same with gtx stuff.


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

So, what happened to this technology? How are these turbo's performing?


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

I think theey spent a bit too much time on the designing phase of these turbo units and not enough on production feasability due to casting technologies. Casting at a 65% failure rate is counterproductive and enormously costly. But they still seem to be distributing them to recouped losses. I just want no part of it till they get their act together


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

****, and they're selling them in this condition?
wtf??

:thumbdown:


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

Al when did you get that one in the picture? I have a few Twin Scroll EFR's sitting at Full-Race now that I have to pick up, just wondering if they are going to look like.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Its not mine. Its a pic of one of the turbos in this current batch that was provided to someone in Australia, I believe. There are quite a few accounts lately of these castings floating around which suggests that most of them are fubared and these were deemed passable. I suggest you check each before taking possession.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

WOW. that is some pretty bad casting! :facepalm: I expect much better QC from Borgwarner.... Garrett FTMFW :heart:


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

Wow, that is truly terrible casting and machining.




Big_Tom said:


> Garrett FTMFW :heart:


FWIW, my Precision has better casting and machining than any of the many Garretts I've owned.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

jbrehm said:


> Wow, that is truly terrible casting and machining.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i will not disagree with that. i think the PTE turbos are purty, but their failure rate isn't :thumbup:


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Its not mine. Its a pic of one of the turbos in this current batch that was provided to someone in Australia, I believe. There are quite a few accounts lately of these castings floating around which suggests that most of them are fubared and these were deemed passable. I suggest you check each before taking possession.


I will be heading out there today or tomorrow, I will make sure to pull them out and inspect them. I will also take some pictures.


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

Big_Tom said:


> i will not disagree with that. i think the PTE turbos are purty, but their failure rate isn't :thumbup:


The Comp Turbo's look even nicer then the PTE's and they also have a much lower failure rate. Now only if Comp Turbo would start making the Extended Tip wheels like they told me they would.


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## 04 GLI Luva (May 30, 2007)

What about an EFR with Treadstone's backhousing?

Seem them in person and they're legit.


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

04 GLI Luva said:


> What about an EFR with Treadstone's backhousing?
> 
> Seem them in person and they're legit.



Does anyone even make a manifold that is going to work with a EFR with the Treadstone V-band housing? 

Downside is that housing isn't twin scroll and also not internally gated which is fine if the person wants a single scroll turbo and plans on using a EWG.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Audi2ptzero said:


> The Comp Turbo's look even nicer then the PTE's and they also have a much lower failure rate. Now only if Comp Turbo would start making the Extended Tip wheels like they told me they would.


Not sure if i buy that. PTE BB turbos are pretty reliable if you ask me. Their JB stuff seems to be getting a bit better as well. Part of advancing is learning from your mistakes and I think they may have turned a corner a bit. I use mostly Garretts but wouldnt hesitate to use PTE BB turbos and have had one experience with a Comp turbo that i would not want to repeat. I dont understand the .020" restrictor that is required and not sent with the turbo. Rate of failure, at times, is also attributed to product coverage. PTE has a pretty wide audience that eclipse alot of the smaller manufacturers so the public documentation of failure will be more prevalent then Comp or BW performance. I dont think anyone has actually done a rate of failure study on different manufacturers. Its all heresay mostly. If you were to poll me, I can tell you that I would mostly stick with Garrett and PTE bb turbos as I've had the most consistent service with them and I've done the BW, Mitsu, Turbonetics things over the past couple of decades...


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> I dont think anyone has actually done a rate of failure study on different manufacturers. Its all heresay mostly. If you were to poll me, I can tell you that I would mostly stick with Garrett and PTE bb turbos as I've had the most consistent service with them and I've done the BW, Mitsu, Turbonetics things over the past couple of decades...


Thanks Al - that's why I only take into account people that are speaking from _personal_ experience. Too much of the internet is people just reading random stuff, interpreting it, then making whatever correlations they want to. Conclusions without meaningful data = poo.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

I haven't had any problems with properly installed PTE BB, and we even ran a journal unit on the bonneville race car- no smoke or issues at all- just ~900bhp at 32psi with 65% wastegate duty and full boost at 5300 rpm... I was pleasantly surprised with that!


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I haven't had any problems with properly installed PTE BB, and we even ran a journal unit on the bonneville race car- no smoke or issues at all- just ~900bhp at 32psi with 65% wastegate duty and full boost at 5300 rpm... I was pleasantly surprised with that!


Not to mention a close to 4yr old ball bearing PTE 6057 blasting a [email protected] at fixxfest doesnt hurt either


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

So, back to EFR - any dyno's to show boost onset and etc. I mean on the Full Race website they have a comparison of their smallest EFR6258 to a 2871R and it spools *significantly* faster and is able to hold pretty steady to redline.

http://www.full-race.com/store/efr-turbos/borgwarner-efr-6258-turbo-2.html


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

i've read abunch of tuners having them take ****s on them whilst tuning lol


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

I think the dynos could be skewed. Are they claiming that a 62mm exducer'ed wheel is making 500+hp on 23psi? Here is more of an independent test that was performed on a miata. This is a 6258 that was mapped on a miata and a garrett 2560R bolted on right after with tune unchanged... An apples to apples comparison would be a GTX2860R or GTX2868 vs 6758. But it does spool rather well regardless...


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> I haven't had any problems with properly installed PTE BB, and we even ran a journal unit on the bonneville race car- no smoke or issues at all- just ~900bhp at 32psi with 65% wastegate duty and full boost at 5300 rpm... I was pleasantly surprised with that!


Pete I have a friend that runs 42psi on his PTE JB 6262 without any issue, but that doesn't mean much seeing that I have other 1.8t owners that have had nothing but problems with their PTE's which includes having the shaft completely snap on them. With the PTE's it just seems to be a complete hit or miss with them.


[email protected] said:


> Not sure if i buy that. PTE BB turbos are pretty reliable if you ask me. Their JB stuff seems to be getting a bit better as well. Part of advancing is learning from your mistakes and I think they may have turned a corner a bit. I use mostly Garretts but wouldnt hesitate to use PTE BB turbos and have had one experience with a Comp turbo that i would not want to repeat. I dont understand the .020" restrictor that is required and not sent with the turbo. Rate of failure, at times, is also attributed to product coverage. PTE has a pretty wide audience that eclipse alot of the smaller manufacturers so the public documentation of failure will be more prevalent then Comp or BW performance. I dont think anyone has actually done a rate of failure study on different manufacturers. Its all heresay mostly. If you were to poll me, I can tell you that I would mostly stick with Garrett and PTE bb turbos as I've had the most consistent service with them and I've done the BW, Mitsu, Turbonetics things over the past couple of decades...



The last person I sent a GTX3076r had it fail the first time he drove the car. Was perfectly fine when they put it on, then after the first WOT run the exhaust wheel was making contact with the housing. Garrett said they would warranty it but the part that sucks is the person has to ship it all the way back to the states from Europe to get that done.


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

Vegeta Gti said:


> i've read abunch of tuners having them take ****s on them whilst tuning lol


Most likely the ones from the first batch which were having problems with the exhaust wheel coming apart.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

The problem with it all is that everyone looks at the product as the culprit when it comes to these kinds of things. When turbine wheels make contact with the housings after the first WOT run there are numerous scenarios that I think of instead of just being a faulty part. Perhaps the housing wasnt tightened on properly and the chra shifts breaking the centerline axis, perhaps it wasnt properly primed before first start, perhaps it wasnt handled properly somewhere in the chain of distribution when the turbo was being assembled, perhaps there was an oiling problem, perhaps the motor or manifold spit something out or perhaps it really was a defective part. Its just real tough sometimes to ascertain what happened and where without getting the turbo back in your hands and doing a thorough inspection. Having said this, thankfully, the problems are a minority. I may have the midas touch, i dont know, but things have been quiet in that front with me...


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

^^ LOL @ the midas touch :laugh::thumbup:


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> The problem with it all is that everyone looks at the product as the culprit when it comes to these kinds of things. When turbine wheels make contact with the housings after the first WOT run there are numerous scenarios that I think of instead of just being a faulty part. Perhaps the housing wasnt tightened on properly and the chra shifts breaking the centerline axis, perhaps it wasnt properly primed before first start, perhaps it wasnt handled properly somewhere in the chain of distribution when the turbo was being assembled, perhaps there was an oiling problem, perhaps the motor or manifold spit something out or perhaps it really was a defective part. Its just real tough sometimes to ascertain what happened and where without getting the turbo back in your hands and doing a thorough inspection. Having said this, thankfully, the problems are a minority. I may have the midas touch, i dont know, but things have been quiet in that front with me...


Actually the shaft ended up having plenty of play, so it was hitting because the CHRA failed. This happen at a shop that has done plenty of turbo installs and this turbo was primed before the car was taking out for a test drive.


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...T-Borg-Warner-EFR-system-(PICS)&highlight=EFR


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## talx (Apr 4, 2003)

WOW....... I hope my turbo doesn't show up looking like that after 2 years of waiting for it! :facepalm:


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

Well just picked up my 2 Twin Scroll EFR's from Full-Race and have to say they aren't anywhere near as those other pictures that were posted. 


Pictures of a 7064 and 8374 




















The housing on the 8374 did have the Borg Warner name on it while the other one did not. 




























7064 housing 





























The manifolds that have been waiting for these EFR's.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

that one housing looks like it was beaten, scrapped, and gouged. so not professional for a world wide turbo manafacturer.


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

Vegeta Gti said:


> that one housing looks like it was beaten, scrapped, and gouged. so not professional for a world wide turbo manafacturer.


 Well better to have it like that now vs waiting another 6-12 months. Does it really matter what the housing looks like? It is made to make power not to look pretty.


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## Budsdubbin (Jul 14, 2008)

Casting on the turbine inlet looks fine to me just lacking the usual clean external casting I see from BW.


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## turbojonny66 (May 31, 2009)

is that a divided t4 full race Transverse Manifold???


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

Longitudinal ^^^


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

turbojonny66 said:


> is that a divided t4 full race Transverse Manifold???


 For a longitude 1.8t, not sure if it would work on a transverse or not. I guess I could see if it does seeing that I have 2 of them sitting here.


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

I highly doubt that it will fit, since you'd think Full-Race would sell it to the transverse guys, but I guess you never know. It definitely looks like it would be right through the firewall. Still, it would be nice to have an option, other than Agtronic, for a transverse, tubular mani.


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

jbrehm said:


> I highly doubt that it will fit, since you'd think Full-Race would sell it to the transverse guys, but I guess you never know. It definitely looks like it would be right through the firewall. Still, it would be nice to have an option, other than Agtronic, for a transverse, tubular mani.


 

Well for some time now they kept telling me that one of their T3 1.8t manifolds would work on both cars and I know for a fact that their transverse manifold will not work on the transverse because the flange is way too close to the head. 

I have also talked to Brad at AFI turbo about Audi/VW manifolds since they too are right here local to me and they are in a building with another shop I deal with. At this time they only make manifolds for the 2.0t FSI/TFS, their FSI manifold is what BSH was selling seeing that they used to be in the same building as the other 2 shops.


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## BMP20th (Jul 23, 2006)

Big_Tom said:


> i will not disagree with that. i think the PTE turbos are purty, but their failure rate isn't :thumbup:


 
This. :thumbup:


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## BMP20th (Jul 23, 2006)

Audi2ptzero said:


> The Comp Turbo's look even nicer then the PTE's and they also have a much lower failure rate. Now only if Comp Turbo would start making the Extended Tip wheels like they told me they would.


 
Waiting on that too. So far they have been far better than PTE.


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## 04 GLI Luva (May 30, 2007)

Comp turbos are laaaaazy! Way too much lag


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

Audi2ptzero said:


> Well better to have it like that now vs waiting another 6-12 months. Does it really matter what the housing looks like? It is made to make power not to look pretty.


 I think he means that for the money we would expect them to be a smoother casting similar to a Tial or Precision stainless turbine housing.


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## BMP20th (Jul 23, 2006)

04 GLI Luva said:


> Comp turbos are laaaaazy! Way too much lag


 My ct6062 blows the pte5857 out of the water in terms of spool. Which comp were you running?


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## BMP20th (Jul 23, 2006)

BMP20th said:


> My ct6062 blows the pte5857 out of the water in terms of spool. Which comp were you running?


 Very glad I made the switch.


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## talx (Apr 4, 2003)

pictures of my BW 8374 EFR EW 1.05 AR 













































































































And a picture of TOYO ...she is realy impressed with the Turbo ass well


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

formerly silveratljetta said:


> I think he means that for the money we would expect them to be a smoother casting similar to a Tial or Precision stainless turbine housing.


Well it wouldn't be hard for anyone to spend a little time smoothing it out and then having it coated again. But does it really matter what the housing looks like? I don't know many people that buy a turbo because of what the housings look like, nearly everyone I know choose one for what power it can make and the design of the wheels inside the housing. Hell my Garrett T3 housing is 9 years old and rusted on the outside and I could care less seeing that gets me up to 650awhp. lol





BMP20th said:


> Waiting on that too. So far they have been far better than PTE.



CT is now offering extended wheels in just the following sizes that are smaller then 68mm (47mm, 51mm, 53mm, 55mm, 58mm) and only sold thru 1 dealer of theirs.


Here is a picture of their 51mm/71mm extended tip wheel.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Aesthetics of the housings are one thing but flawed castings are quite another. These new housings are a far cry from the previous versions and for the most part useable. Tons of casting flash and porosity, however, can be tricky with castings. The housing posted by talx is more then fine but there doesn't seem to be a lot of consistency which can be troublesome.


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Aesthetics of the housings are one thing but flawed castings are quite another. These new housings are a far cry from the previous versions and for the most part useable. Tons of casting flash and porosity, however, can be tricky with castings. The housing posted by talx is more then fine but there doesn't seem to be a lot of consistency which can be troublesome.


You mean the earlier EFR housings that were cracking and leaking? Sure it would be if the new ones looked like those but I think not cracking is better then looking good.


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## Lucky40 (Dec 23, 2012)

Audi2ptzero said:


> Well just picked up my 2 Twin Scroll EFR's from Full-Race and have to say they aren't anywhere near as those other pictures that were posted.
> 
> 
> Pictures of a 7064 and 8374
> ...



I've been seaching for a 7064!! Does Full Race have them in stock? I've been wanting to buy one for my Opel GT.


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## Nateness (Jun 25, 2010)

Any chance that there will be a cast-iron, bottom-mount exhaust manifold option for use with the EFR B1 small frame turbos for us 1.8T Longitudinal guys?

I'd love to run an EFR while keeping my APR/OEM air boxes.



[email protected] said:


> These things are very scarce right now. Hype has definitely exceeded availability. As for this particular unit, we are in the midst of a move but once settled in, will be testing it shortly :beer:
> 
> It'll be first tested on an FSI most likely


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

Does anyone know if tial or anyone are going to be making hotside housings with the same positioning as the garrett tial housings?


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Audi2ptzero said:


> You mean the earlier EFR housings that were cracking and leaking? Sure it would be if the new ones looked like those but I think not cracking is better then looking good.


I've used 3 of the older ones and so far so good. You might be talking about a specific housing that may have been a design flaw and not a casting flaw. They've gone through and contracted numerous foundries thinking that it was a a problem there  Believe it or not, BW got a little over zealous with their designs with realizing the complexity in manufacturing. I don't think they took any of the manufacturing intricacies into major consideration on some of these designs as there's always a trade off. Take it from someone who's been there... Again, not even remotely talking about aesthetics here...


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Nateness said:


> Any chance that there will be a cast-iron, bottom-mount exhaust manifold option for use with the EFR B1 small frame turbos for us 1.8T Longitudinal guys?
> 
> I'd love to run an EFR while keeping my APR/OEM air boxes.


This can mostly be done with some customization for sure


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

StaceyS3 said:


> Does anyone know if tial or anyone are going to be making hotside housings with the same positioning as the garrett tial housings?


Treadstone was in the process of making vband turbine housings for the EFR lineup


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## Audi2ptzero (May 28, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> I've used 3 of the older ones and so far so good. You might be talking about a specific housing that may have been a design flaw and not a casting flaw. They've gone through and contracted numerous foundries thinking that it was a a problem there  Believe it or not, BW got a little over zealous with their designs with realizing the complexity in manufacturing. I don't think they took any of the manufacturing intricacies into major consideration on some of these designs as there's always a trade off. Take it from someone who's been there... Again, not even remotely talking about aesthetics here...


Could have been the very first production run of the housings that were cracking, same time they were having cracking problems of the exhaust wheel which they also solved way back then.


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

formerly silveratljetta said:


> Treadstone was in the process of making vband turbine housings for the EFR lineup


Cheers, hopefully will be the same distances from manifold to downpipe centres


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## Nateness (Jun 25, 2010)

Can you elaborate? I'm unaware of any cast-iron, bottom-mount manifold options for the Longitudinal 1.8T that advertise fitment with the EFR turbos. Can the 2.0 TFSI manifold pictured earlier work with the 1.8T/AEB head or are modifications necessary (if so, what mods)?



[email protected] said:


> This can mostly be done with some customization for sure


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## Andaloons (Apr 16, 2004)

Bump for more info/turbo packages for the EFR's.


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## Don® (Oct 11, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> These things are very scarce right now. Hype has definitely exceeded availability. As for this particular unit, we are in the midst of a move but once settled in, will be testing it shortly :beer:
> 
> It'll be first tested on an FSI most likely


I like this


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

This isnt a 1.8t related but more of an EFR6758 information update. We had the opportunity to upgrade a local B7 FSI vehicle with our 6758 SS vbanded kit and here are some of the highlights...

Getting ready for dismantling









Airbox out and extracting K03









K03 out









EFR 6758 in and how it looks from underneath









Turbosmart bolt on dual port dv and IWG with custom actuator bracket fitted









Assembled hardware









IC Piping stuff






















































Inlet piping fabbed to utilize stock airbox









We wanted to keep an OEM look and I think we accomplished it ok









How does she respond? 3rd gear pull on the base file









As the Audi comes back for necessary fueling upgrades and a clutch we will be updating some more data on this on power and spool on a more optimized setup. Thanks for reading...


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## StaceyS3 (Sep 22, 2012)

Very nice!
Didn't know EFR's were available in v-band


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## Three3Se7en (Jul 2, 2007)

I'd like to see what kind of room this would take on a transverse setup.


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> How does she respond? 3rd gear pull on the base file




Could you please post a graph from same data with boost and RPM by time ? (2 y-axis = Boost [primary axis] and RPM second axis], x-axis = time)

Thanks,
Rey


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

The twin scroll ones spool even faster, if you can make it work.  

Best turbos in a long time. Reliable and smoke free too- you would have to pay me a lot to use something else on my own car these days lol. :thumbup:


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## dan.h (Feb 4, 2013)

I keep contemplating an efr for my car. Ideally it would need to be top mounted though as the engine is in a corrado with the corrados traditional mounting points. So a bottom mount v band would be a struggle to fit.

How do the t25 fitment ones perform when comparing them to the v band fitment ones as obviously the t25 fitment is a smaller csa than the v banded fitment ones.

The ones that interest me are the 6758 and I've read some good stuff on the 7163 also.


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## dan.h (Feb 4, 2013)

Also heard that the internal wastegate design in these means that they operate as good as and external waste gate, anyone using one of these turbos have any opinion on this?

Cheers


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

This housing was a T25 that we modified to vband long ago. Bottom mount with a custom mounting bracket is doable on the MK2/3 platform. As for the internal gate, these seem to work well. Of course, its dependent on how well the actuator works. This one was fitted with a custom Turbosmart unit that seems to be holding fine with its 14psi base spring. Not sure how its going to fair at 30psi but my guess is that it should work better then the original one. Hooking it up to a good solenoid is a step in the right direction..

The turbo spools very fast and I dont know if the larger A/R twin scroll would spool any faster then this. We actually tested out a GTX3582R with a twin scroll 1.01ar housing (DSM) and was getting full spool at 4800 rpms so I wasnt too impressed with that. Larger cams also hurt the twin scroll effectiveness as well. With this housing, I get positive pressure under 2k. I get 15psi in 2nd gear at 3600rpm's. I'll most likely be testing out the 7163 next. Not looking to hurt top end with the smallish twin scroll housings. If I have to take a spool penalty along these lines, I'll gladly take it for high hp potential


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

Our tests have shown that the twin scroll housing is good for about 300-400 rpm quicker spool then the vband. All of my testing was done on the FSI but even here, at 4500 feet altitude, we are getting similar response to that with the larger 7163 in the twin scroll housing. Here's an old video of the 7064 we were initially using for testing. The 7163 is definitely laggier then this, but still. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX4ZbKsnufM&list=UURmW6Fsu5-O5fdzC6AwC3WA

Sorry, it's a crappy video- just meant to send it to a friend. We were in shock at how much boost you could get so early with a ~55lb / min turbo. In fact, we kept having torque intervention issues on off the shelf BT software because load would come up so high, at such low rpm. I remember my first 60lb/min turbo back in the day- an SC61- full boost at over 5k. :laugh: The T4 housing is definitely way more difficult to work with though. It's bulky, and the studs are ungainly- install is harder, etc. 

This winter I'm rebuilding Dave's 337 - and my plan is a 6758 on your Vband manifold, with IWG. 

Ohhhh, IWG- on the setup I've been working on, we cannot fit the forge actuator. The OD is too large. So, here's some data on the BW canisters. The medium boost one is ~useless. You can't get more then 20-23 psi or so out of that if you want proper boost control. The high boost one, if you crank it down to "max" preload, about 10 turns or so, yields 20psi or so on the w/g spring and low 30's is easily possible with N75 control / single port setup. Any more preload then that and boost control becomes VERY iffy as the flap door is only able to open about 30 degrees or so. 

The IWG setups really work "too" well. The doors are very large, meant to be able to allow very low boost. Our engines though, need high boost, so getting enough w/g preload requires a very stiff actuator or a dual port setup. I wish they were smaller, so we could have a wider range of boost control, not requiring such a huge actuator spring. Or, they need to offer us a two port canister.


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## styling5030 (Feb 13, 2009)

Pete. Do you have plan for big turbo kit tfsi?

Envoyé de mon HTC One en utilisant Tapatalk


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX4ZbKsnufM&list=UURmW6Fsu5-O5fdzC6AwC3WA


I spotted 20psi @ 2761 RPM

I know it's not apples to apples since different load applied/held. But great none the less.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

From what i see, these twin scroll housings are in the lower a/r ranges although I do see a 1.05ar on the 7064 EWG and the .92ar for the IWG. Probably by design as the larger A/R would overwhelm the relatively small flapper. It maintains this pattern throughout their line which makes me worry about how well these things can hold top end. Also, BW's EGT cap on their turbines at 1780deg's will not have me pushing these too hard up top. Makes sense with what they're offering in terms of single scroll a/rs on their 7163 and larger frame turbos. I definitely dont want to battle bp issues for longevity's sake. Thanks for the data on that, good work Pete 

On a side note, been looking at FP's new single scroll housings for their EVO's and although they do exhibit a slight spool penalty, they've been getting a buttload more top end power from their already good Red and Black line of turbos.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

elRey said:


> I spotted 20psi @ 2761 RPM
> 
> I know it's not apples to apples since different load applied/held. But great none the less.



Ya, don't ask how I know, but that 7064 twin scroll will easily top 42-44 psi at 3200 rpm. :screwy: :facepalm:

@Arnold- yea the turbo in the video is the .92 IWG 7064. The problem with that .92 housing is that it's very tall, from flange to bottom of volute. Getting it to fit over the haldex units, but under the exhaust ports- not so much. The B1 turbos are a much better fit- I wish they'd build one version hotter then the 7163 in that frame. 

They did have some failures with turbine wheels coming off the shaft on early, small units. From what I understand, it's been resolved. My BW contact did advise me "to keep it on the map" - and in a voice that suggested that he meant it too.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

I think the 7163 is pushing it in the B1 frame. The 2.5" inlet and no surge housing is probably toeing the line on the 71 wheel. Its prob not an aggressively trimmed comp. I am going to do my own housing on the 63 setup soon to keep spool within reason. .85ar open scroll isnt my idea of fun and the twin scroll probably flows like a .6xar open. Anyways, the 6758's turbine in the .64ar definitely works. I wouldnt want any more spool then that. Even considering this is an off the shelf unoptimized tune on pump gas. We'll see how the mix flow wheel is. The new B8 K03's employ mix flow tech with larger housings from IHI and are somewhat laggy for its size so not sure what to make of this new tech. Its actually not a BW design. It was conceived by IHI


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

What kind of output are you seeing from the 6758?

Regarding Power, Boost Onset, tuneability ?


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

ejg3855 said:


> What kind of output are you seeing from the 6758?
> 
> Regarding Power, Boost Onset, tuneability ?


There is a 3rd gear spool chart on the previous page. Mind you, this is on the FSI motor so its going to be slightly different. 20psi by around 3600rpm's in 3rd. I see 15psi in 2nd gear around the same RPM. This is also on a very base file so it can get better. We havent dyno'ed it because we would like to increase boost but light pressure fueling mods along w/ meth and a clutch (still on stock one) needs to be in place. We will be shooting for 400awhp on a real quattro, anything more is gravy for the owner.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

This is a boost graph (green) of a 7670 on an EVO 2.3L with twin scroll housing. Only one I can find on an actual vehicle... I notice the internal gate losing a bit of steam upstairs as most of them tend to do but I just cant see the [email protected] on our motors...


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

That's my only thing with three eft. . How it just falls off up top. But. . External wg can help yes.


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## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> This is a boost graph (green) of a 7670 on an EVO 2.3L with twin scroll housing. Only one I can find on an actual vehicle... I notice the internal gate losing a bit of steam upstairs as most of them tend to do but I just cant see the [email protected] on our motors...


pic no workie


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Found another interesting one...

Same STI swapped from single to twin scroll









QUOTE:
"This car is an SCCA Solo car so the owner was looking for more down low and slightly better transient out of low speed turns - boost on the dyno peak numbers are a little high but they both make 34~ psi in the logs peak but the slightly more restrictive t4 housing wouldn't do anymore up top power or boost wise - however at 2800rpm it is up 60lb/ft of torque over the vband housing"

QUOTE:
"I should have noted - on the vband boost was controlled with a TiAL 44mm and on the ts housing it has twin TiAL 38 gates- external dump on both using a grimmspeed 3 port. The boost was tapered intentionally as we saw no increase in power from holding more up top only increased intake air temps which we attributed to back pressure- edit- I should also note we welded the flapper shut so no leaking or blowing open could occur"

I'd venture to say there is not a chance you're making 40psi anywhere near 3k


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## gdoggmoney (Feb 21, 2004)

I know where you saw that EFR diverter valve before... on the MHI turbos fixed to Volvo 740/940 cars in the 80's and 90's. BAM! Old guy knowledge


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Found another interesting one...
> 
> Same STI swapped from single to twin scroll
> 
> ...


No offense, but I don't know or care about internet dyno plots, only what I see in my own test cell. Go back a page and watch the video, that's at 2800rpm, and the wastegate is wide open controlling boost. Crank down the n75 and you get all the boost you want. Plus we are at 4500 feet.

Those are not the same turbo, and who knows what the motor is, could be a cammed out, long tube header, lag machine for all we know. All I know is what this turbo does on this particular engine.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Pete, there needs to be a bit of room for turbos to ramp up to peak boost. There's not enough flow to ramp up the turbine to 170k+ shaft speeds at 3k on this motor. Not saying your tests arent valid but I also have a 7670 on a TTQ in twin scroll I'll be getting some data out of eventually but its not even close to that as far as I can see. I agree that these things are turning out to be pretty decent performers. We cannot ignore other ppl's results as they are, at the very least, going to be in the 'ballpark'.


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## HYDE16 (Aug 20, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> I think the 7163 is pushing it in the B1 frame. The 2.5" inlet and no surge housing is probably toeing the line on the 71 wheel. Its prob not an aggressively trimmed comp. I am going to do my own housing on the 63 setup soon to keep spool within reason. .85ar open scroll isnt my idea of fun and the twin scroll probably flows like a .6xar open. Anyways, the 6758's turbine in the .64ar definitely works. I wouldnt want any more spool then that. Even considering this is an off the shelf unoptimized tune on pump gas. We'll see how the mix flow wheel is. The new B8 K03's employ mix flow tech with larger housings from IHI and are somewhat laggy for its size so not sure what to make of this new tech. Its actually not a BW design. It was conceived by IHI


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