# 374 whp 8v Rabbit



## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

Mark Morris and Clarke Gilroy's 8v Rabbit.
Just completed for the Pittsburgh Classic race.

374 whp at 25 psi boost.

Went [email protected] mph at 12 psi

Specs:
ABA built bottom end with rods and pistons (thanks Killa)
bone stock (even smokes oil) unported OBD1 head
Autotech 270 cam, valvesprings
Racecraft short runner intake and fuel rail
Forcefed tubular exh mani-topmount 
46mm Precision wastegate
3-4" up-pipe exhaust (thanks Joel)
2.5" aluminum intercooler piping (thanks Joel)
Turbo is a used 60-1, Stage 3 turbine wheel, .63 AR
smallish old used Spearco intercooler
Bosch Rabbit CIS Fuel Pump 
Injector Dynamics 1000 Fuel Injectors
Lugtronic ECU, running wideband, boost control, 2-step, etc thru ecu
Lugtronic supplied Bosch Motorsport coil
Lugtronic custom wiring harness--a work of art (thanks Kevin).
VP Q16 Fuel 
Orange Valve Cover

Thanks to Hybrid-Dynamics for the Dyno and corner weight scales.


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## Amsterdam087 (Dec 31, 2007)

beast! :thumbup::beer:


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## chilledOUTmk1 (Feb 5, 2006)

Wow. More pictures :thumbup:


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## 2LMONSTER (Nov 17, 2001)

Wicked cool!


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

might have a dyno video soon


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## Richard_Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

shichya!!!!!!

looks good, all......

good luck out there, Mark. and dont you save the boxes for returning the cores on those axles? out here we get those in lifetime warranty. i broke one, and got it replaced instantly. and it was like $60 or so.... and after that one break (which was my fault) i never broke the axle again....


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## vwgolfracer26 (Nov 3, 2003)

Big props to you guys at lugtronic. You guys are really doing things right. :thumbup:
By the way i love the exhaust.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Junk that POS


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

did Kev thank himself in the 1st post for the harness??
:screwy:


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## Richard_Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

.therealvrt said:


> did Kev thank himself in the 1st post for the harness??
> :screwy:


yup, looks like it


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

.therealvrt said:


> did Kev thank himself in the 1st post for the harness??
> :screwy:


Didnt really notice nor did I really care. This thread is about a turbo motor. Why nitpick on the stupid details?


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

Nice work there:thumbup:


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

lol it was a quickie copy/paste from vw sport


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

Amsterdam087 said:


> beast! :thumbup::beer:


what he said.

:beer:


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## rjones1214 (Apr 24, 2009)

Wow great power! 
I can't believe all of these high power 8 valve engines that are shower up, I'm glad people are pushing these engines! :beer:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

rjones1214 said:


> Wow great power!
> I can't believe all of these high power 8 valve engines that are shower up, I'm glad people are pushing these engines! :beer:


I know huh. Dont you feel sorry for the people who pulled these motors out to put in a 1.8t? Looks like they make about the same power as a 1.8t nothing but a cheap cam and they seem to have about the same failure level.

Like I have said before. The biggest expense in going fast in a FWD car is the transmission (or even AWD for that matter). Any VW motor can make more then sufficient power very cheaply and can smash a trans with ease.


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

The 8v is simply making a comeback / new people are carrying the torch.

We had an 8v making 441 whp back in 2003. Before that was a T3/4 8v making 378 whp turbo and 466 turbo and nitrous.

Here's the chart for the 441whp set-up. The engine made power to 8000+ rpm.

Search Purple-Pill in the archives for details.


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

.therealvrt said:


> did Kev thank himself in the 1st post for the harness??
> :screwy:


No, no, no! I told him to go ahead and post this here. He did a quick copy-and-paste from my vwsport post.


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

The original post should also have a big thank-you to Jim at Racecraft for the killer intake manifold. Thanks Jim!

Also wanna thank Ed at Forcefed for the custom exhaust manifold.


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

rjones1214 said:


> Wow great power!
> I can't believe all of these high power 8 valve engines that are shower up, I'm glad people are pushing these engines! :beer:


Joel and Kevin inspired me way back in the day, I've finally got around to doing something about it. There is more to come. We were gonna try for 400 whp, but the clutch showed sign of slipping so we decided to unstrap it and save it for the race.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Here is a little food for thought. This is with a mild head port and port match. everything else is essentially the same. Do check the boost level. Yea I know im out of fuel and thats all the stock pump has in it. Both times we maxed out the fuel as much as the tuner dared go.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

And if you need a head to port mark LMK. I will send you a free one (you pay shipping).


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

Thanks for the offer Chuck. We double-checked the boost level and worked up from 8.5 psi on the spring to 25 psi. [email protected] 12 psi, [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] The stage 3 60-1 isn't gonna be happy going a whole lot higher. We might be able to squeeze 28 or 29 psi out of her before the turbo gets pissed and the power gets all wavey. The goal with this setup was to get a nice powerband with good area under the curve.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Mark Morris said:


> Thanks for the offer Chuck. We checked the double-checked the boost level and worked up from 8.5 psi on the spring to 25 psi. [email protected] 12 psi, [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] The stage 3 60-1 isn't gonna be happy going a whole lot higher. We might be able to squeeze 28 or 29 psi out of her before the turbo gets pissed and the power gets all wavey. The goal with this setup was to get a nice powerband with good area under the curve.



Well thats the nice thing about my turbo. I have one of the new billet precision turbos and this this is just getting started at 20lbs.

The port job will really help that turbo alot. I think that will drop you more into the efficiency range.


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

TIGninja said:


> Well thats the nice thing about my turbo. I have one of the new billet precision turbos and this this is just getting started at 20lbs.
> 
> The port job will really help that turbo alot. I think that will drop you more into the efficiency range.


Agreed on both counts. I have plans for both-- we'll see how time and money pan-out for next year. There is still a ton left in the car et and trap wise as it sits. It would be nice to actually get out and drive the thing for once, lol.


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## The Green (Oct 5, 2002)

what are the expected numbers if you would max prep the head? Esp intrested in spool time.. 
My xflow will get the works,plus itb and im still looking for a turbo (t3t4 stg3 .48 will be sold) to reach 400 but would like an earlier spool then 5k


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

The Green said:


> what are the expected numbers if you would max prep the head? Esp intrested in spool time..
> My xflow will get the works,plus itb and im still looking for a turbo (t3t4 stg3 .48 will be sold) to reach 400 but would like an earlier spool then 5k


Well for 400whp I think you can do it on a stock head and a decent street cam. I would also recomend a new precision billet 5557 or 5857.A good port job will do wonders for your build as well. I would say in the 400-500 hp level a ported head is worth 75-100hp(on my set up).


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## The Green (Oct 5, 2002)

i have all parts for the head already (max out,max -1 in,plus to make it mech inst of hydro)
From what i read from the 20vt guys the turbo you suggest is too laggy


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

The Green said:


> i have all parts for the head already (max out,max -1 in,plus to make it mech inst of hydro)
> From what i read from the 20vt guys the turbo you suggest is too laggy


Your money would be much better spent on more dyno time and a good standalone. I also recomend talking with your tuner and see what standalone he likes to tune the most (your usually better off buying it from him as well).


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

The Green said:


> what are the expected numbers if you would max prep the head? Esp intrested in spool time..
> My xflow will get the works,plus itb and im still looking for a turbo (t3t4 stg3 .48 will be sold) to reach 400 but would like an earlier spool then 5k


The honest answer is I don't know yet-- every combo is different. Obviously, working the head is gonna make a big difference in efficiency-- these heads don't flow very well stock, and every little bit helps. On my setup it should make a decent amount more power because the 60-1 stage 3 doesn't like to push a ton of boost. I'm getting up near the upper limit of what the turbo will tolerate, and so increasing headflow will allow more power without resorting to more boost (or put another way, will make the same power at less boost). On a stock big port 20v head (AEB) with decent cams, this turbo has put down a little over 500 whp. 

The level of head work obviously has an effect. Are you planning on raising the runners, filling the bottom of the ports, changing the port entries? There is a huge range of modifications depending upon your goals and budget. 

I don't think you're gonna see much difference in spool time with just headwork. Changing cam/ valve events will have an effect, but that gets really complicated and I'm not even gonna try and get into that here. Your best bet is to talk to TT or Web about your combination, and see what they suggest.

I would honestly forget about itb's and focus on a solid "short runner" intake manifold design.

What do you want to do with your car, and what are your goals (besides 400 whp) with "decent" spool?

Dollar for dollar, the single biggest factor in fitting your criteria is going to be selecting the turbo that best fits you goal of power vs. response. Garret, Borg Warner and Precision all have some really good units. 

Good luck with your project.


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## The Green (Oct 5, 2002)

TIGninja said:


> Your money would be much better spent on more dyno time and a good standalone. I also recomend talking with your tuner and see what standalone he likes to tune the most (your usually better off buying it from him as well).


Joking right? I think if spent money for itb,then my guess would be that i wil run stdalone.. I cannot undrstand you suggest agains headwork with our crappy 8v.. Which was btw not in my init reply..


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## The Green (Oct 5, 2002)

Mark Morris said:


> The honest answer is I don't know yet-- every combo is different. Obviously, working the head is gonna make a big difference in efficiency-- these heads don't flow very well stock, and every little bit helps. On my setup it should make a decent amount more power because the 60-1 stage 3 doesn't like to push a ton of boost. I'm getting up near the upper limit of what the turbo will tolerate, and so increasing headflow will allow more power without resorting to more boost (or put another way, will make the same power at less boost). On a stock big port 20v head (AEB) with decent cams, this turbo has put down a little over 500 whp.
> 
> The level of head work obviously has an effect. Are you planning on raising the runners, filling the bottom of the ports, changing the port entries? There is a huge range of modifications depending upon your goals and budget.
> 
> ...


I agree with the itb,but i do not have a budget so why wouldnt i  (hence why I ordered an INA drysump too)
I know turbo is the biggest factor and there is where i lack knowledge, i know only the garrett versions (I worked some months at headq of honeywell as IT support)
Purpose is weekend car,highway,but also mountain roads,nurburg occasionaly,1/4 mile.. Yup 

ok, edit from a pc now and not anymore from cellphone..

So, yes, broad usage for an 8v.. but I live somewhere where swapping engines is not allowed so I don't really have mutch room to work with, plus already need to go abroad for the standalone as I do not trust any standlone tuner in my country (the only firm I would consider is like 3x the normal prices (easily 5k euro for new style, while in NL its 3k all included old style vw), so I'm like the first one to be so 'stupid' to aim so high (there are 2 vr6t, maybe 5 vr6 compressors, I don't know any 16vt and only 1 8vt (just as replacement for G60 charger, so no high hp) in the entire country :thumbdown:

Do I need to make a choice between high hp and small road usage? most likely yes.. Do I want to? No 
I made an agreement with myself to break the 400hp mark, but I dont want to loose fun factor (even thinking of adding a rotrex). I first bought a T3T4 .48 .50 (in .60 housing, stg3), but I read often that it will be difficult to reach my goal..

Sorry for the big reply :beer:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

The Green said:


> Joking right? I think if spent money for itb,then my guess would be that i wil run stdalone.. I cannot undrstand you suggest agains headwork with our crappy 8v.. Which was btw not in my init reply..


I bet you I have made alot more power then you ever will with the 8v so maybe you should listen to what im saying.

Everyone thinks that the 8v head cant flow. This is totally not the case and has been proven many times. This BS starts from the factory that completely undercamed and put a crappy intake manifold on this motor to keep it from competing with the VR6.

The 8v motor has proven that it makes just as much power as anything per pound of boost. Its also more power then a very serious driveline will take.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

The Green said:


> I agree with the itb,but i do not have a budget so why wouldnt i  (hence why I ordered an INA drysump too)
> I know turbo is the biggest factor and there is where i lack knowledge, i know only the garrett versions (I worked some months at headq of honeywell as IT support)
> Purpose is weekend car,highway,but also mountain roads,nurburg occasionaly,1/4 mile.. Yup
> 
> ...


Again. You are spending alot of money for things you do not need. The stock oiling system on your car is just fine. Why take it out?

The only thing a 8v head needs to give you 400whp is a decent street cam and some better valve springs. You will need a better intake manifold a good intercooler and a reasonably efficient turbo for the level your shooting for.


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Wooohoooo go Mark!


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

You drinking again Chuck?


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Mark Morris said:


> You drinking again Chuck?


Yea and watching asian porn and masterbating. :sly:

No im actually just trying to keep this guy from wasting alot of money on hings he doesnt need.


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## Richard_Cranium (Mar 28, 2010)

Chuck likes Asian Women. its what i have always heard anyways..... even two at once


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Richard_Cranium said:


> Chuck likes Asian Women. its what i have always heard anyways..... even two at once


I like them more when they bring beer  :beer:


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Now back on topic. 

This is a very good recipe for 400whp.

ABA + rods and pistons,good street cam,valve springs,good quality intercooler,good intake manifold and exhaust manifold, windshield washer/exhaust :laugh: ,and a good efficient turbo at higher boost levels.


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## The Green (Oct 5, 2002)

if you built so many and you know so good
Then why are you dissing instead of giving info? It's unfort is still my choice if I want itb and drysump, so why being narrow minded? I want it, already have it, so please move on? I'm not selling them again :screwy:
You want to fly as high as possible, like orbit, what do I need? > you need a balloon..
Thanks, helps a lot, exactl the same general answer like you gave, even my non technical interior guy could have posted that...he instead would at least read posts.. (aba? I didnt know this was an original G60 engine... BE=illegal to swap engine.. that didnt change yet in between my prev post..)


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Actually the G60 motor may have an advantage in flow because the intake ports are higher and give a better angle (so im told).


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## Pat @ Pitt Soundworks (Nov 14, 2008)

nice mate. When you want more, swap in a hoslet hx35/40 with a twinscroll manifold. She'll be efficient well over 30psi.


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

Don't worry, there will be more to come down the road-- I achieved what I wanted with this setup power-wise for now. Now it's a matter of running the e.t. I have in mind. After that I'll concentrate on making more power. :beer:


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

The Green said:


> Purpose is weekend car,highway,but also mountain roads,nurburg occasionaly,1/4 mile.. Yup
> 
> So, yes, broad usage for an 8v.. but I live somewhere where swapping engines is not allowed so I don't really have mutch room to work with.
> 
> ...


Which 8v do you have? Is it a counterflow head or a crossflow head, and which block are you using?

I can't see any t3/t4 frame turbo with a .48 turbine housing reaching your 400 whp goal.

If you want to stick with Garrett turbos, the 3076 with a .63 turbine should get you very close to your power goal (with all the suopporting engine mods of course) with a very nice powerband and good spool & transient response.


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## The Green (Oct 5, 2002)

I have a PG bottom end, and a new xflow head from INA (forgot the code)
Blueprinted, forged, all arp, JE pistons (8.5 or 8.0, we lost that some years ago when the short block was first put together)
Max valves and will be static instead of Hydro (head is still to be done, but all parts are in)
Collector will be or an SPA model (cast but will longer runners to keep gasses separate, got that already), or a tubular one if I can find a good compagny.
I do not at all need to stay with garrett, but it's the only ones I know a bit, so need directions if another brand is better

400hp is ok, does not need to be wheel (of course would be nice haha)
Oh, and running 98oct by default (this is our pump gas), I can have race gas (buddy of mine is mecanic with Symtech Racing) and E85 (can be pumped in NL and DE and I'm 30min from their borders)


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Mark Morris said:


> Which 8v do you have? Is it a counterflow head or a crossflow head, and which block are you using?
> 
> I can't see any t3/t4 frame turbo with a .48 turbine housing reaching your 400 whp goal.
> 
> If you want to stick with Garrett turbos, the 3076 with a .63 turbine should get you very close to your power goal (with all the suopporting engine mods of course) with a very nice powerband and good spool & transient response.


The PT 5557 or PT 5857 will get you similar spool but will kill the 3076 at anything over 20lbs.


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## Zorba2.0 (Jan 28, 2005)

Yay Mark and Clarke!! I cant wait to see this thing race in person next summer. Are you boys still running an 020 tranny from the ABA? Ryan and I are hoping to hit 300 with mine.


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

Zorba2.0 said:


> Are you boys still running an 020 tranny from the ABA?


Yup.


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

The Green said:


> 400hp is ok, does not need to be wheel (of course would be nice haha)
> Oh, and running 98oct by default (this is our pump gas), I can have race gas (buddy of mine is mecanic with Symtech Racing) and E85 (can be pumped in NL and DE and I'm 30min from their borders)


E85 works great, you'll just need more fuel pump flow and larger injectors than with gasoline.


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## The Green (Oct 5, 2002)

Sure, that is why I took higher output injectors  (should have about 440, bought 580 or 560 or something like that), keep in mind we need less fuel then you guys in general


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## TIGninja (Mar 21, 2010)

Mark Morris said:


> Yup.


Thats impressive. I have gone to the O2a just because I have destroyed Maybe 30? O2Os in the last 20 years. I havent had nearly as many O2as as I have O2os but I have been much harder on the O2as. Over the winter Im going with the O2a case (because it bolts right in) with O2j internals and LSD.


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)

The Green said:


> (should have about 440, bought 580 or 560 or something like that), keep in mind we need less fuel then you guys in general


560 or 580cc won't be nearly big enough for 400 whp on E85. If you bump-up the base pressure you should be able to squeeze-out 400 whp on gas with those injectors.


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## [email protected] (Aug 25, 2010)

dunno why....but i like this thread....


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## Mark Morris (Dec 15, 2001)




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