# ABA + GSXR ITBs + CIS = My latest obsession...



## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

I'm sure most of you are looking at the title and shaking your head as I know I was after brainstorming this. The overall idea is to accomplish something unique and something that most people would say cannot be done. I have to give credit to "Jettaboy1884" who has inspired me to attempt this and who has provided some excellent information and ideas. He is currently running an aba on CIS..








I also came across this 16v running ITBs on CIS...








The recipent of this madness is my 83 cabby....








Currently the Cabby is running CIS-E on the stock and tired 1.7L. The donor motor is from a 94 Jetta with 154k miles and a blown headgasket. The aba has already been fully disassembled and will have a rebuilt stock lower end with a modestly worked over head.
First order of business was to get the intake squared away. The first problem I ran into was how to mount the CIS injectors in the EFI injector bungs. Mike a.k.a "Jettaboy1884" was nice enough to share his setup which required tapping the injector holes and installing brass inserts. 
























The center of the caps you see in this photo will be drilled to the exact diameter of the CIS injector. The injector seal will sit between the cap and the insert thus creating a seal. The injector will be pressed down into the hole and the injector seal will still fit in the stock recess.








Here is how Mike's setup currently looks...
















That's about all I have right now but stay tuned for updates in the coming weeks. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 



_Modified by Holden McNeil at 9:10 PM 5-7-2007_


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

*Re: ABA + GSXR ITBs + CIS = My latest obsession... (Holden McNeil)*

Go Dog Go
So many CIS naysayers. This will be cool.


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: ABA + GSXR ITBs + CIS = My latest obsession... (antichristonwheels)*

Your Cabriolet looks great!
I really appreciate the credit you are giving me, but I must say that I only came up with the idea and made a mock-up of it; It's great to see that you are actually going to make it happen. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
The manifold looks like it's coming along nicely, keep us posted as you make progress.








Mike.


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## LOVINandDUBBIN (Dec 14, 2006)

*Re: ABA + GSXR ITBs + CIS = My latest obsession... (Jettaboy1884)*

there is a rabbit in eurotuner with an aba running on cis, and nitrous!!!
sounds like fun







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: ABA + GSXR ITBs + CIS = My latest obsession... (dubbinandlovin returns)*

Nick,
I was wondering if the brass inserts in the aluminum manifold would become an issue over time as the intake heats up and cools down.
I know that in my HKK intake, there are brass inserts for the vaccum lines, but they are further away from the head. (They have never loosened up on me so far)
Could you ask the machine shop that you are using if he reccomends using an intake gasket that would insulate the manifold from the head. (I think it's called a Phenolic spacer (spelling))


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## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: ABA + GSXR ITBs + CIS = My latest obsession... (Jettaboy1884)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jettaboy1884* »_Nick,
I was wondering if the brass inserts in the aluminum manifold would become an issue over time as the intake heats up and cools down.
I know that in my HKK intake, there are brass inserts for the vaccum lines, but they are further away from the head. (They have never loosened up on me so far)
Could you ask the machine shop that you are using if he reccomends using an intake gasket that would insulate the manifold from the head. (I think it's called a Phenolic spacer (spelling))

They didn't seem to say anything negative about it but I was planning on running the USRT phenolic spacer/gasket just from a performance perspective. http://www.usrallyteam.com/inmani.html


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## mk2dubbin (Mar 16, 2002)

*Re: ABA + GSXR ITBs + CIS = My latest obsession... (Holden McNeil)*

is there any reason you cant use a stock cis injector cup? everyone going from cis to efi gets rid of their cis cups for efi cups. unless the aba cups are different, you should be able to just screw them in.


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## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: ABA + GSXR ITBs + CIS = My latest obsession... (mk2dubbin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mk2dubbin* »_is there any reason you cant use a stock cis injector cup? everyone going from cis to efi gets rid of their cis cups for efi cups. unless the aba cups are different, you should be able to just screw them in.

Good idea but there were a few reasons for going this route. First this manifold has cast injector cups. The 16v manifold has the removable injector cups that your referencing. I'm sure they could have been machined out to fit the CIS injector but due to the length of the injector, it would have stuck way too far out of the bottom. I'm hoping that in the future (when I get bored of running this setup) I can just remove the brass inserts and retap the holes to fit EFI cups... :thumbup


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

Stock CIS cups are also pretty bulky and therefore might make it difficult to tap out the crossflow to accept them without destroying it.
I think I have an old pic of when I actually glued the plastic CIS cups onto a crossflow just to see if the engine would run. I'll try and find it.
Edit: Found the pic.
This is a pic of a Mk1 plenum welded onto the runners of a crossflow lower manifold, with CIS cups glued in place. (I added more epoxy before actually running it)










_Modified by Jettaboy1884 at 10:33 PM 5-8-2007_


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## PeruEuro (Dec 28, 2006)

free props


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (PeruEuro)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PeruEuro* »_free props

Bump this back up http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
We really need a CIS forum!


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## BillLeBob (Aug 10, 2004)

*Re: (Jettaboy1884)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jettaboy1884* »_

We really need a CIS forum!

Whats that?
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3216536


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## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: (BillLeBob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BillLeBob* »_
Whats that?
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3216536

Only 13 more votes to go... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
As for the ITB - no progress yet - still waiting on the ITBs before I can start mock up & parts ordering.... On another note I did track someone down to do all the TIG welding http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (Holden McNeil)*

Bump this back up!
Whats the latest?


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## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: (Jettaboy1884)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jettaboy1884* »_Bump this back up!
Whats the latest?

Still waiting on the ITBs...







The car will be back here this weekend so I should be able to get some measurements from the injectors and seals... Unfortunately I'm at a stand still...


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## vwaddicct07 (Jan 21, 2005)

*Re: (Holden McNeil)*

Whats the idea behind the 16v ITB cis...How do the TBs open??? vacume controlled?? Is the plate in time with the TB opening and closing?


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## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: (vwaddicct07)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwaddicct07* »_Whats the idea behind the 16v ITB cis...How do the TBs open??? vacume controlled?? Is the plate in time with the TB opening and closing?

not sure I understand your question but basically the four individual throttle bodies replace the single main throttle body and are controled by a throttle cable like usual... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vwaddicct07 (Jan 21, 2005)

*Re: (Holden McNeil)*

o im sorry, i was thinking way to hard







, what are those four lines that are circled in that pic? looked to be some kind of vaccume







. I wonder how that setup runs...


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## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: (vwaddicct07)*

It's a vaccum block and it's' just a way to turn four lines into one main line (say for a brake booster) - The GSXR ITBs already have vaccum ports built in which I'll be using for the brake booster and ignition advance on the distributor... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vwaddicct07 (Jan 21, 2005)

*Re: (Holden McNeil)*

Any more pics?


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## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: (vwaddicct07)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwaddicct07* »_Any more pics?

None yet - still waiting on the ITBs so I can place and order for the silicone parts and plenum pieces... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vwaddicct07 (Jan 21, 2005)

*Re: (Holden McNeil)*

awesome keep this thread going http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ...o and what part of Jersey are you from?


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## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: (vwaddicct07)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwaddicct07* »_awesome keep this thread going http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ...o and what part of Jersey are you from?

I'm in Montville right now http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I got the ITBs and I need to start measuring and ordering some parts... I'll have some pictures up this week which will show the current hurdles...







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (Holden McNeil)*

Nick,
I've got a ton of Mk1 and Mk2 engine parts laying around, so if there is anything you need, just ask.
I've got a couple stock CIS fuel dizzy's, a bunch of air shrouded injectors, and a bunch of CIS injector lines.
I've got about 6 spark distributors (a couple ABA's and some 1.8's)
I'd be happy to help. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Mike.


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## vwaddicct07 (Jan 21, 2005)

*Re: (Jettaboy1884)*

Hey does anyone have a JH 8v?


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (vwaddicct07)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwaddicct07* »_Hey does anyone have a JH 8v? 

I've got a JH head. You'd be better off asking around in the engine classifieds though.
Bump for the OP.


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## secondgen (Jan 9, 2004)

*Re: (Jettaboy1884)*

Watching, this should be cool as hell.


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## vwaddicct07 (Jan 21, 2005)

*Re: (secondgen)*

bump


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (vwaddicct07)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwaddicct07* »_bump

X2
I wanna see those ITB's http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vwaddicct07 (Jan 21, 2005)

*Re: (Jettaboy1884)*

yea keep it coming


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## YJSAABMAN (Jun 28, 2006)

*Re: (vwaddicct07)*

Thanks for the link, man!! Looking good! Oh, and great to see the hybrid manifold, as that was my plan!! Good to see I'm not the only crazy one thinking of how to do this! Keep it coming!


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (YJSAABMAN)*

Bump. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## YJSAABMAN (Jun 28, 2006)

*Re: (Jettaboy1884)*

Yeah! What's the progress? Working frantically to have it ready for WF, I hope!
A question or two, Jettaboy...

_Quote, originally posted by *"Jettaboy1884"* »_This is a pic of a Mk1 plenum welded onto the runners of a crossflow lower manifold, with CIS cups glued in place. (I added more epoxy before actually running it)









Was the upper flange on the ABA lower retained in this setup, or was it cut off/trimmed back? How close to the plenum were the MKI runners cut off? Any in process pics? Welding process? I've ben told TIG is the only way to go (def preferred, but harder to gain access to for me) due to the contaminents the metal has picked up over the years. Ugly welds and much splatter would ensue using MIG. Any comments?


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## YJSAABMAN (Jun 28, 2006)

*Re: (YJSAABMAN)*

Anyone? C'mon!


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## Chronicsinners (Mar 13, 2003)

*Re: (YJSAABMAN)*

bump for a setup i would like to build in the future http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## IronTrap (Jun 14, 2001)

*Re: (Chronicsinners)*

found these pics while browsing german ebay and i thought this would be some good inspiration for you!








































link to it:
http://cgi.ebay.de/VW-GOLF-GTI...wItem

_Modified by saddest6day66 at 4:58 PM 7-6-2007_


_Modified by saddest6day66 at 4:59 PM 7-6-2007_


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## vwaddicct07 (Jan 21, 2005)

*Re: (saddest6day66)*

Thats a very interesting setup...
Theres alot of *+* and *-* to that setup though...


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## IronTrap (Jun 14, 2001)

only minus i see to it, is that it is still CIS


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## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: (saddest6day66)*


_Quote, originally posted by *saddest6day66* »_only minus i see to it, is that it is still CIS
















WOW! Thanks for those pics! I've been knee deep in to-do's for Waterfest - I'm still getting parts together and the lower end is being rebuilt still so this idea is far from dead - just not moving at the speed it should be.... I did however score a heated garage so I can see some long winter nights being spent welding and fabricating http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: (Holden McNeil)*

I was informed that USRT is in the process of doing ITBs on CIS as a kit...







I was hoping to build this but the truth is I can probably buy there kit and save a few hundred dollars in the process...








Here is a picture of their kit from the USRT site...
I'm bumed to say the least...

















_Modified by Holden McNeil at 1:34 PM 7-16-2007_


_Modified by Holden McNeil at 10:35 AM 7-18-2007_


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## dinamik2.0 (Nov 21, 2006)

*Re: (Holden McNeil)*

Standalone > CIS








Can't to wait to see how this turns out http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (dinamik2.0)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dinamik2.0* »_Standalone > CIS


Standalone also = Expensive + lots of tuning
CIS = Stock/cheap + supports around 170 NA Hp.
I agree that Standalone offers superior tuning abiltiy and power potential, but sometimes it's more fun and equally rewarding to take the road less travelled...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Jettaboy1884)*

If I were counting my time = $$ I would bet that I could get a MS setup running WELL cheaper then a CIS one.


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## dinamik2.0 (Nov 21, 2006)

*Re: (Jettaboy1884)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jettaboy1884* »_
Standalone also = Expensive + lots of tuning
CIS = Stock/cheap + supports around 170 NA Hp.
I agree that Standalone offers superior tuning abiltiy and power potential, but sometimes it's more fun and equally rewarding to take the road less travelled...

To the best of my knowledge, Megasquirt is affordable and quite simple to tune.
CIS is stock, and is also pretty crappy and unreliable once you start tinkering with it.


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## BillLeBob (Aug 10, 2004)

*Re: (dinamik2.0)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dinamik2.0* »_

CIS is stock, and is also pretty crappy and unreliable once you start tinkering with it.

Then stop tinkering with it.


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## dinamik2.0 (Nov 21, 2006)

*Re: (BillLeBob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BillLeBob* »_
Then stop tinkering with it. 


I would if I had CIS. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: (dinamik2.0)*


_Quote, originally posted by *dinamik2.0* »_Standalone > CIS


Says the guy running carbs...















CIS gets a bad rap because people don't understand how it works... it's a very simple, yet basic system and although it won't allow tuning to the point of standalone, it has a wide range of tunability especially when using Volvo or Euro Injection setups... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Holden McNeil)*

BTDT with CIS. I even had it at one point with the wideband in there, changing the switch points, playing with using MS to run the lambda valve, etc. It's all a very uphill battle. 
The ONE big problem I see with ITB'd CIS is accel enrichment. There's NO way to adjust that without changing the dynamic of the entire system.


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## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *need_a_VR6* »_BTDT with CIS. I even had it at one point with the wideband in there, changing the switch points, playing with using MS to run the lambda valve, etc. It's all a very uphill battle. 
The ONE big problem I see with ITB'd CIS is accel enrichment. There's NO way to adjust that without changing the dynamic of the entire system.

I totally agree that it's an uphill battle that could be easily avoided with standalone but it defeats the purpose... I'd be interested in hearing about your lambda info - never thought of running an external controler... neat stuff...
The one major hurdle I'm expecting to see is issues when at partial throttle... I have a feeling this setup is going to work best at idle and WFO.... I didn't think about accel enrichment since it does it's best to compensate stock... I'll be logging A/F so it will be interesting to see exactly how/when/where stuff goes badly..


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## vwaddicct07 (Jan 21, 2005)

*Re: (Holden McNeil)*

wow i cant belive that USRT is going to make a ITB cis setup, thats awesome http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif , cant wait to see how that turns out...


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: (Holden McNeil)*

I got the idea from Peter Tong. I used the MS stim to play a bit and used the older 'dual table' code. I set all the VE bins so the injector duty was 50% at most load points and 60% from 80kpa up. It allowed the car to run and drive but I sold it before I took it any further. It took a LOT of tweaking to get the ECU to that point, but it was a good start. From there, it might have worked well, it might not have.


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## YJSAABMAN (Jun 28, 2006)

*Re: (need_a_VR6)*

I was just reading that thread, Nick. Neat setup, but still prob reasonably pricey. I still plan on sticking with a reg CIS TB and a custom plenum manifold. I need to check pin-outs, but I think the '85 SAAB 2.0L brainbox and bits should all plug right in on my Rabbit. Will probably use the fuel dizzy, too. Yes, perhaps I am crazy!!


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## YJSAABMAN (Jun 28, 2006)

*Re: (YJSAABMAN)*

Bump! 
I picked up my second CIS manifold to cut up for the plenum. I also just got word on a new job that starts the 20th which gives me access to a TIG daily! That'll ake mating the CIS 8V plenum to the ABA lower much easier!!


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## Holden McNeil (Jul 26, 2004)

*Re: (YJSAABMAN)*


_Quote, originally posted by *YJSAABMAN* »_Bump! 
I picked up my second CIS manifold to cut up for the plenum. I also just got word on a new job that starts the 20th which gives me access to a TIG daily! That'll ake mating the CIS 8V plenum to the ABA lower much easier!!

You win! I'm looking at taking a local welding II class which would give me access to tig for a solid 6-8 weeks - I could use my manifold and thier suppiles as my "project"







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## YJSAABMAN (Jun 28, 2006)

*Re: (Holden McNeil)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Holden McNeil* »_
You win! I'm looking at taking a local welding II class which would give me access to tig for a solid 6-8 weeks - I could use my manifold and thier suppiles as my "project"







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I built a MAF adapter and heatsheild for my Subaru in Fab II, at school, and the front bumper for my Jeep in Fab III!! The manifold project will be a refresher on my TIG skills for the new job!


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## redGTInj (Jul 6, 2003)

*Re: (Holden McNeil)*

i can only imagine...how much this would cost...............


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## Wraith04 (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (redGTInj)*

The only reason to do this is to be unique. The money you will spend will be equal to if not more than the money you could spend on megasquirt and have a better running, tunable car that you can enjoy on a daily basis. It would be even worse if you bought the USRT IT"B setup to install.


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## Wraith04 (Jun 24, 2004)

*Re: (Wraith04)*

And all this doesn't matter if you can't tune your stock CIS car why and the hell would you introduce ITB's? This is like tuning a steam car for ultimate performance because that is the injection system you have.


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## Diggatron (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (Wraith04)*

Maybe someone has already mentioned this, but, isn't the whole idea behind ITB's is their ability to have greater airflow? I would think that the fuel dizz plate to be a restriction. Novel, yes, but ultimately not as flexible as ITB's and SEM.


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