# Oil Change: Time vs. Miles?



## theothereos (Oct 9, 2006)

Hello All - I've searched around the forums and I haven't found a thread on this topic so I'm posting Q here.
I'm one of those lucky folks who lives very close to work and can work at home some days so my EOS has low miles. I just took her in for the 5K service at 4,500 miles because I've had her for a little over 6 months and didn't want to wait longer. 
Outside a few road trips for races around the state I won't be putting on big miles and won't reach 10K at 1 year anniverary.
Do I take in at 1 year for just an oil change and then again at 10K for 10K service? Dealer told me I should bring in every 3 months for an oil change, but that seems at bit much. 
Thanks in advance!
-dawn


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (theothereos)*

Dawn,
There are a couple threads (or more) dealing with oil, oil change intervals, etc.
Sorry but I don't have time right now to search them out for you.
The basic concept is, if you don't drive your car for reasonable distances on a regular basis, that allow the engine to operate at full operating temperature for a while, then you should change your oil more often.
This is because water and certain other contaminants will evaporate or "flash off" out of the oil if the engine operates for extended periods at full temperature. If the engine doesn't run "hot" for an extended period these contaminents don't get the chance to evaporate off.
Short trips tend to result in more build up of condensation and contaminants in the oil.
Although regulation has significantly reduced the amount of sulpher in fuels in recent years, sulpher is still present in gas and diesel. A certain amount of byproduct from combustion will get into the oil. If sulpher dioxide mixes with water, it creates sulphuric acid. Sulphuric acid is not good for metal components in your engine, especially the soft babbot used for bearings.
Traditional thinking has been, change your oil every 3000 miles or three months, whichever comes first. (the theory being if you aren't putting on 3000 miles in three months, you are probably making a lot of short trips)
Modern engines have much better tolerances which can help reduce the amount of contaminants that get into the oil, and synthetic oils are generally thought to be better at "carrying" or "suspending" contaminant particulate within the oil to be removed by the filter. This is why many manufactures can now recommend extended service intervals like the 10,000 mile interval on your VW.
If your driving patterns tend to include a lot of "short hops" without frequent trips at highway speeds for an hour or more at at a time, then you probably should consider cutting your oil change interval to 5000 miles. (This is sometimes refered to as the severe service interval)
If you do this, you should only need to do an oil and filter change on the "between" services. The remaining service items and routine checks can be done at the 10K 20K 30K, etc. intervals as recommended.
Kevin








*Here is one of the threads.* http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3020957



_Modified by just4fun at 2:54 PM 4-6-2007_


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## theothereos (Oct 9, 2006)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (just4fun)*

Thank you very much!


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## kghia (Nov 16, 2006)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (just4fun)*


_Quote, originally posted by *just4fun* »_
If your driving patterns tend to include a lot of "short hops" without frequent trips at highway speeds for an hour or more at at a time, then you probably should consider cutting your oil change interval to 5000 miles. (This is sometimes refered to as the severe service interval)


While chatting with the service dept after my 5k change, they mentioned that Turbos had oil change at every 5k miles-- they were a little surprised when I insisted the Eos was only every 10k after the first 5k and 10k changes. They looked in their service interval sheet, and of course I had the right figures, but they were concerned with it being as Turbo that it should have more frequent changes than the non-turbos.
My brother is thinking of getting an evacuator-pump for his Mercedes, as it is apparently recommended by Mercedes Benz Club of America to change it this way. (_basically-- a tube sucks it up through the dipstick hole_)
You don't have to change the oil drain plug with built-in gasket,although I am still skeptical that it would get as much sludge as draining from the bottom. The tube sucks it from the bottom, so maybe it does well-enough. At least *an evacuator pump might be sufficient for in-between changes*
Here is a link for one at $39.99, one for $49.95 at North Tool and a heavy-duty versions for $479.99








(all at Northen Tool, but probably found elsewhere)
William


_Modified by kghia at 7:29 PM 4-9-2007_


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (kghia)*


_Quote, originally posted by *kghia* »_they were a little surprised when I insisted the Eos was only every 10k after the first 5k and 10k changes. They looked in their service interval sheet, and of course I had the right figures, but they were concerned with it being as Turbo that it should have more frequent changes than the non-turbos.

Do we have a copy of that somewhere up here or is that somewhere in my manual? My Extended warranty / service contract has me scheduled every 5000 miles while the stupid sticker they put in my window is set to 3K or 3 months. I usually bring it in around 5500 cause I forget to plan ahead. For some reason when I set up an appointment a week in advance for 7:30am it still takes them over 2 hours to change the oil...


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (aflaedge)*


_Quote, originally posted by *aflaedge* »_
Do we have a copy of that somewhere up here or is that somewhere in my manual? 

Booklet 1.1 Maintenance has detailed information for each service interval.
First service at 5000 miles (8000km), second service at 10,000 miles (16,000km), then every 10,000 miles after that.
This would be for vehicles driven under normal operating conditions. If you drive in extreme environments (i.e. excessive dust, heat, or cold) or if you drive primarily in stop and go traffic, your dealer may recommend decreasing the mileage interval due to severe service conditions.
Kevin


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## aflaedge (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (just4fun)*

I've put 18K on my car since August and the majority has been driving over 20 miles each way to work and then weekend trips of 100 to 400 miles. Maybe once a week I'll drive the car for less than 10 miles.


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## _Rick_V_ (Jan 21, 2007)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (just4fun)*

We Americans have gotten into a mindset that we have to change our oil every 3000 miles/3 months. This was the result of pervasive marketing campaign by JiffyLube and others, and perpetuated by shops and dealers all over (who have a vested interest in collecting easy money by doing oil changes at twice the rate as necessary).
In the past few years, nearly every manufacturer has issued statements saying that every 3000 miles is WAAAY overkill. Most recently, Ford (just a few weeks ago) came out and said that 7500 miles on all Ford products are sufficient.
As pointed out here, there are a variety of reasons for this (improved oil quality, better engine designs, etc). To ally your fears, remember that even at these so-called "extreme" miles, they're still within the safety margin for the oil/engine (the manufacturers don't want to get into the habit of replacing blown engines). Now, you will still find many people (including, sadly, many service departments) that argue that you will need to change it more frequently, especially if it's turbo. But remember, these are not just arbitrary numbers the manufacturers came up with, they do extensive testing (lab and real world) and back their claim with what is usually the longest warranted section of your car (engine/transmission).
When I first got my Volkswagen, I too was surprised by the long oil changes. Then I recalled that my wife's car had a 7500 mile interval (which I never paid much attention to, I was on the 3000 mile track at that point). So, I started to pay more attention, and began "researching" by asking people to borrow their service manuals (imagine the odd looks I got).
I have charted all the cars I could get my hands on (co-workers, etc). Here is just a small sample of cars:
2002 Volvo S40 (turbo) - 7500 miles (if "extreme" conditions, switch to synthetic but maintain change interval)
All late model GM cars - follow onboard computer recommendation (interesting article: http://www.americascarshow.com...Past_)
All volkswagen/Audi's (we know this answer: 10,000 miles)
2004 Toyota Sienna - 7500 miles (5000 miles for "extreme")
I could go on and on. But, the fact of the matter is, even in "extreme" conditions, no manufacturer recommended anything as low as 3000 miles. Google "3000 mile oil change" and you will find dozens of articles debunking this myth).
When was the last time you heard of anyone have their engine seize up?
-Rick


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## WolfsburgerMitFries (Jul 4, 2005)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (_Rick_V_)*


_Quote, originally posted by *_Rick_V_* »_When was the last time you heard of anyone have their engine seize up?
-Rick


Ummmm...it was all over the news about 3 months ago. Here's the most convenient article I could find, although there are many artilces about this exact topic all over the internet. And the problem is not limited to Toyota. 
http://www.consumeraffairs.com....html 
And as a result..."Toyota Motor Corp. reduced its change interval from 7,500 miles to 5,000 in 2004 in part because it found that more drivers ran their vehicles under severe stop-and-start and short trip conditions that cause oil to deteriorate more quickly, said company spokesman Bill Kwong."




_Modified by WolfsburgerMitFries at 12:57 PM 4-10-2007_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (theothereos)*

Just a bit of information for everyone, something your friendly neighborhood moderators (Mark and Michael) have learned from the school of hard knocks:
*It is far safer and much less controversial to discuss politics or religion in the forum than it is to discuss oil change intervals or to discuss what kind of oil to use. *








Seriously - we could probably have a nice, calm, rational discussion here about who should be the next President of the USA, who should be the next Prime Minister of the UK, what should or should not be done in Iraq, or what religion is the one true religion... and if we had those kind of discussions, everyone here would probably be nice and polite and respect everyone else's opinions. But - start talking about oil, and sometimes the discussion gets very heated and out of control. No kidding.
So, please keep this in mind: Offer your thoughts and opinion, but always remember that other people will have different opinions that are equally deserving of respect (even though your opinion is the 'right' one).








Michael


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (WolfsburgerMitFries)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfsburgerMitFries* »_
http://www.consumeraffairs.com....html 


Wolf,
It would appear your link is not active.
Kevin


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## _Rick_V_ (Jan 21, 2007)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
LOL! I hear ya! Next time I'll try to keep it constrained to politics. I imagine it will go something like this:
*poster*: _"Anyone experiencing any leaks in their new Eos? Help!"_
*_Rick_V_*: _"Speaking of leaks, what about those leaks coming out of the White House this week?!"_

I'm certainly not trying to start a flame-war. People can change their oil as frequently as they want. I'm simply trying to point out that it seems that most (if not all) manufacturers are pretty confident that their cars can go longer than 3000 miles between oil changes. 
To that article: Interesting. It was a bit vague on specifics. So, I can reach a couple conclusions:
a) *If I were to believe the consumers:* If there is an engine defect that's causing engine failure, oil changes isn't going to overcome that defect. Changing your oil more frequently may postpone the inevitable marginally, but it won't prevent it. Sooner or later that engine is going to fail. (Notice that the two examples they gave in the article was one failed before 30,000, the other at 60,000. Heck, a lawn mower engine should last longer than that!







) So, follow the owner's manual on the oil change frequency.
b) *Toyota's accusation:* (again, the article doesn't indicate whether these vans were inspected by Toyota engineers). But, they are suggesting that there's evidence that the oil hadn't been changed in over a year. If that's true, I think it's incredibly generous of Toyota to honor the warranty if they could prove that they were getting at least one oil change a year! (And, even if you don't keep those receipts, it's pretty easy to prove-- the oil change shop will have a record). So, follow the owner's manual on the oil change frequency.
c) I'm glad Volkswagen uses synthetic!!!







Of course, that certainly doesn't give you a pass for not following the the recommended change guidelines.


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## WolfsburgerMitFries (Jul 4, 2005)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (just4fun)*


_Quote, originally posted by *just4fun* »_
Wolf,
It would appear your link is not active.
Kevin










I'm gonna try linking again. Like Michael said, there's no reason why we can't have a calm sensible discussion about this.
My initial link is about Toyota which dealt principally with their recent sludge/engine failure issue and resulting class-action lawsuit in their 4 cylinder engines. Keep in mind the Toyota problem is with non-turbo engines. You would have to expect more severe temperatures and shorter oil lifespan in a turbocharged engine.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com....html

From the same website, there is coverage about recent sludge/engine failure problems with the VW/Audi 1.8T, which is the same engine (only smaller displacement) than the 2.0T in most North American Eos'. I really should have linked to this first, because it is directly relevant to this forum and our discussion. There's also turbo failure issues if you read the contributors experiences, one guy is on this 3rd turbo in 70,000 miles.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com....html
Chrysler recently had sludge problems with their 2.7L family of V6 engines.
http://www.autosafety.org/arti...d=149
And so has Saab.
http://www.swedishwrench.com/oil_sludge_saab.htm
And the list goes on, but I'm tired at this point.

Look, manufacturer recommended oil change change intervals are necessarily written too long as a marketing gimmick to generate a lower cost of ownership figure. Its so when people research cars, it lowers the "true cost of ownership" figure that is generated. One of the components of the "true cost of ownership" is manufacturer recommended maintenance, so if you write long intervals you push the price down. That's the principal motivating factor in why you see excessive intervals like 100,000 mile tune up, or 10,000 mile oil change intervals.
There's always gonna be a group of well intentioned people that drank the kool-aid, and couldn't possibly accept the notion that their maintenance schedule may not be correct, or there might be other factors influencing that interval like marketing. But the evidence supporting my case is everywhere, all you have to do is look.
Everything about extended intervals is just costly to the car owner. Outside of engine wear issues/risks...if you've ever owned a car whos on-board computer calculates MPG, you can see the MPG decrease over time as the oil becomes laden with contaminants that the oil filter cannot remove. Extended oil change intervals simply don't save you any money, especially with the increasing cost of fuel.
Let me know, Kevin, if those links still don't work.




_Modified by WolfsburgerMitFries at 11:07 PM 4-10-2007_


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## kghia (Nov 16, 2006)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Just a bit of information for everyone, something your friendly neighborhood moderators (Mark and Michael) have learned from the school of hard knocks:
*It is far safer and much less controversial to discuss politics or religion in the forum than it is to discuss oil change intervals or to discuss what kind of oil to use. *










*Safer ???* Bah! Those who want "safer" will get a nice used Volvo sedan (and not go up against any VW buses!







)
Me-- I _always_ read the _dis-assembly_ procedures before the _assembly_ procedures, don't you?
Personally, I want sources to backup "facts", but *passionate* opinions are the most compelling to consider.
I _almost_ changed colleges to take study abroad in a Tibetan monastery,
but the only thing holding me back from following advice with a custom-order synthetic is that it was _easier_ to take it to the dealership (so far)
The mechanic at the dealership was a little surprised the oil change interval is that long-- they had oil change sheets that gave the TDIs (Golf,Jetta, etc), and I think a 1.8T something VW, only 5k miles between EVERY oil change.
hey, on the Karmann Ghia email list, some restoration fanatics respond to most _any_ non-factory performance modification with "If it _could_ have been better, VW would have made it that way", or "The proper one is the *stock* _doohickey_" etc.
So I hope that people keep your advice in mind regarding different opinions, but I'd still take the *heated discourse* over the sound of crickets, or not being able to get real input on non-factory color options (although I *do* know the stock color code for my Ghia







)







William
_ If Volkswagen is always right, what were they before they issue a change in procedure? ex. .006" valve gap replaced .004" recommendation._


_Modified by kghia at 7:17 PM 4-10-2007_


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (WolfsburgerMitFries)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfsburgerMitFries* »_

Let me know, Kevin, if those links still don't work.


Hi Wolf,
The two consumeraffairs links are still coming up with an error: Internet Explorer Does Not Recognize Web Page Format. or something like that.
The other two are fine. i'm going to read them now.
Kevin


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## WolfsburgerMitFries (Jul 4, 2005)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (just4fun)*


_Quote, originally posted by *just4fun* »_
Hi Wolf,
The two consumeraffairs links are still coming up with an error: Internet Explorer Does Not Recognize Web Page Format. or something like that.
The other two are fine. i'm going to read them now.
Kevin










Not good, those are the important ones. Just go to the website...
http://www.consumeraffairs.com
and type in "audi sludge" or "toyota sludge" in the search box. Like I say, everyone with a 2.0T should read the Audi information.


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## kghia (Nov 16, 2006)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (_Rick_V_)*


_Quote, originally posted by *_Rick_V_* »_
I could go on and on. But, the fact of the matter is, even in "extreme" conditions, no manufacturer recommended anything as low as 3000 miles. Google "3000 mile oil change" and you will find dozens of articles debunking this myth).


although what you ultimately do is your choice, VW *did recommend 3,000 oil changes* 
I am looking at the maintenance book for my 1967 Ghia, and it says the 3,000 change service -- "WS 5 --consists of:
1- Engine: change oil, clean strainer, check for leaks
2- Door and hood locks, door hinges: lubricate
3- Carbeurator linkage: oil
4- Battery: Check, add distilled water as necessary. Clean and grease terminals.
5- Windshield washer: Check fluid"
Of course, the older VWs *didn't have an oil filter*.
Whenever synthetics come up on the KGCNA lists, usually there are many people who use and love them, and the consensus by those who are not "religiously-opposed" to synthetics is that they are good, *but do not allow you to extend* your oil change time *without a filter*.
The last part is critical-- older "aircooled" really = oil & air- cooled, and they *don't have an oil filter*. They have an oil strainer.(like a screen door mesh)








Some people, doing their own changes, were still willing to pay $5.99/qt for 2.5 quarts every 3,000 miles (I believe they recommended 5,000 km and round up the miles) to keep their aircooled VW going forever.
I had gone to 2,500 mile oil changes, but I did them myself.






















William


_Modified by kghia at 7:52 PM 4-10-2007_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (WolfsburgerMitFries)*

I've really never taken much of an interest in oil or oil change intervals. I do follow the maintenance schedule that comes with the Volkswagen pretty carefully - taking it in to the dealer for scheduled service whenever it is due. The staff at my dealership are quite careful to always reset the maintenance reminder system that is built into the instrument cluster, so, the car will warn me ahead of time when I start getting close to either the mileage limit between services (10,000 miles) or the time limit between service intervals (1 year).
In case anyone is interested in finding out what VW themselves recommend as scheduled maintenance for the Eos, we have two posts listed in the Eos Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category) that speak directly to this topic. Here are links to those posts:
Maintenance Schedule - NAR Market, 2007 Model Year
VW Oil Specifications for North American Market (not applicable outside NAR)
If anyone is interested in doing their own oil change, there is a good "how-to" essay at this link:
How to change the oil (Do It Yourself) on an Eos
You are most welcome to change the oil on your car yourself - this will not compromise your warranty coverage in any way, provided that you keep careful records of when you changed the oil, and keep the receipt for the oil purchase (to show that you purchased oil that meets the VW oil specification). However... most VW dealers don't charge a whole lot of money for the oil change itself, and unless you have a maintenance manual and a good set of tools, you will probably need to take the car to the VW dealer to get other scheduled service done (brake inspections, roof inspections, and so forth). Thus, you probably won't save a whole lot of money changing your own oil, even though this kind of activity can be a pleasant task to do on a weekend morning.
Michael


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## solarflare (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (PanEuropean)*

Following the recommended service interval may cover your backs during the warrantee period but VW will not be covering your backs after it expires and the damage is done. 
Based on my past experience with the 1.8t (with a change interval of EVERY 5k miles) oil life was right on the border. That engine was very hard on oil. I prefer to have a safety buffer zone. Will the 2.0t be just as hard on oil? Only time will tell but I’m not willing to take that chance. I’ll be changing the oil in my Eos every 4k miles just like I switched to on my pervious 1.8t. Good luck to you 10k mile oil changers. I personally would love to see what comes out of the engine after 10k miles. 


_Modified by solarflare at 10:13 AM 4-11-2007_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (solarflare)*


_Quote, originally posted by *solarflare* »_Following the recommended service interval may cover your backs during the warranty period but VW will not be covering your backs after it expires... 

Without making any comment on the validity of that statement, I think it is worth noting that most people who buy (or lease) new vehicles generally don't keep them longer than 3 or 4 years. Thus, the point is you make is moot.
There will be a minority of people who buy a vehicle new with the intention of keeping it for a long period of time, but the vast majority of new car purchasers or new car lessees (>80%) get rid of the car before 48 months has passed. 
Note also that the powertrain warranty extends far longer than the Limited New Vehicle Warranty. I think the powertrain warranty runs for 7 years.
_(Later correction: Chris informed me that the powertrain warranty runs for 5 years. Michael)_
Michael


_Modified by PanEuropean at 12:14 AM 4-12-2007_


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (WolfsburgerMitFries)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfsburgerMitFries* »_From the same website, there is coverage about recent sludge/engine failure problems with the VW/Audi 1.8T, which is the same engine (only smaller displacement) than the 2.0T in most North American Eos'. I really should have linked to this first, because it is directly relevant to this forum and our discussion. There's also turbo failure issues if you read the contributors experiences, one guy is on this 3rd turbo in 70,000 miles.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com....html

Jeremiah,
Actually the engines are very different.
Let's start by looking at the VW 1.8 sludge issue.
The problem with sludge occurred _primarily_ on 1.8 engines mounted in a longitudinal fashion running organic-based oils. The engines mounted transversely were not exhibiting the same issues as the longitudinal ones. Aside from engine orientation, the only marked difference between the two is in oil capacity -- mainly the transverse ones taking more oil in the sump.
As I've stated in other Forums, the oil change interval on that particular engine was 5,000 miles. Unfortunately, there wasn't a "fudge factor" for actually hitting that interval (ref: Moore, et. al.; _Yield in 83 metres_, ZRH DPW, copyright 2005) and people were pushing it. 5,000 miles meant 5,000 miles on that engine. Not 6,250. Not 5,835. Not even 5,300. 5,000. Period.
In five years of writing VW service, there was only *one instance* where a properly-maintained vehicle (a 2001 B5.5 Passat with 78,000 miles on it) ended up with a sludging issue and VW happily took care of the repairs under warranty. In five years of writing VW service, I, personally, have *never* seen a sludge issue on a properly-maintained vehicle using synthetic oils -- even those vehicle with a 10,000 mile oil change interval.
Additionally, the irony here is, unbeknownst to us at the time, nobody was using the proper spec. oil in their 1.8 turbos. The Owner's Manual called out for a specific VW specification oil to be used. In the NAR, the only oils that met those specs were synthetics. However, the word "synthetic" was nowhere to be found in the Manual, per se, and most everyone used organic oil. This has since been corrected in subsequent VW publications.
So, the wrong oil, combined with an overriding propensity for lack of precision where meeting intervals is concerned, led to a sludge issue that ended up being VW's problem because "nobody told us" (even though it was actually there in black and white).
As for Toyota's sludging issue, I was told by a Lexus Service Director back when I was interviewing for a Service Manager position with them a few years ago, their sludging issues arose from basically the same root causes as VW's -- incorrect oil and lack of adherence to an interval which had no leeway.
I had the oil changed on my V8 Phaeton after 10,000 miles recently and sent the old oil off for analysis. While oil analysis is more useful in a "trend-based" capacity, it was interesting to note no abnormal viscosity or detergent breakdowns were exhibited in the sample I'd sent. A recent visit to KC for an impromptu Phaeton Get Together has another owner down there sending a sample of old oil for analysis after his upcoming oil change to the same company he uses for all the trucks in his moving company. I'll be very interested to see the results there as well.
Final word, given that the 2.0 turbo engines take almost two quarts more oil than the longitudinal 1.8s did and, given that the oil used is synthetic, I'm not overly concerned with the 10k intervals. If you have concerns, have your oil analyzed after each change during the warranty period. That will tell you what to do.


_Modified by chrisj428 at 11:18 AM 4-11-2007_


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## solarflare (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_ generally don't keep them longer than 3 or 4 years. Thus, the point is you make is moot.
Michael

You actually supported my argument and thus my point is not moot if one plans to keep their car for more then 4 years. I generally keep a car 6-8 years unless its repair requirements exceed my patience.


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_Jeremiah,
5,000 miles meant 5,000 miles on that engine. Not 6,250. Not 5,835. Not even 5,300. 5,000. Period.
_Modified by chrisj428 at 11:18 AM 4-11-2007_

Why push oil life to the absolute edge? I'd rather change it while it's still able to do its job. There are many factors that contribute to the longevity of oil, with miles on the odometer probably being the least accurate but that is what we are stuck with. So 5000 miles might be the limit on a highway car but 4000 miles might be the limit on that city car in the winter. I have no doubt that the owner’s failure to strictly adhere to the recommended oil change intervals contribute to these sludge complains but these complaints are not across the board. They occur on certain cars with certain engines further indicating a generic miles parameter for oil life is insufficient. Until a more precise determination can be offered to the consumer I will err on the side of caution.
Perhaps an engine runtime meter would be more accurate, which our VWs have if you reset the MFD trip computer #2 at oil change intervals, but even with this there's no data that states oil life in hours from the manufacturer. Interestingly enough, the tests which oil manufacturers must run on their oil to meet a certain test specification such as the API Service Quality Classification SM (I think is latest) is not measured in miles, it's measure in hours.
So maybe even better would be a computer analysis of various parameters such as, outside temp, length of current trip, average engine rpm, temperature, time running and vehicle speed. All of these parameters are currently monitored so all that would be needed is a model to compare them against to determine much more accurate oil life.

_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_Jeremiah,
The Owner's Manual called out for a specific VW specification oil to be used. In the NAR, the only oils that met those specs were synthetics. However, the word "synthetic" was nowhere to be found in the Manual, per se, and most everyone used organic oil. This has since been corrected in subsequent VW publications.
_Modified by chrisj428 at 11:18 AM 4-11-2007_

In addition, the manual for my 2004 Passat specifically stated that 5W30 (with no mention of synthetic only) could be used if the preferred 5W40 was not available. I don't think their intention was for people to use 5W30 exclusively but it wasn't clear and this coupled with the fact that 5W40 is difficult to find outside the dealer it’s no wonder people were using the wrong oil.
_Modified by solarflare at 10:17 AM 4-11-2007_

_Modified by solarflare at 10:19 AM 4-11-2007_

_Modified by solarflare at 10:30 AM 4-11-2007_


_Modified by solarflare at 10:31 AM 4-11-2007_


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Just a bit of information for everyone, something your friendly neighborhood moderators (Mark and Michael) have learned from the school of hard knocks:
*It is far safer and much less controversial to discuss politics or religion in the forum than it is to discuss oil change intervals or to discuss what kind of oil to use. *








Michael

*quod erat demonstrandum*


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (solarflare)*


_Quote, originally posted by *solarflare* »_Why push oil life to the absolute edge?

Because that's what the general public demand. They want to make as few trips as possible to the dealer for the upkeep of their vehicles.

_Quote, originally posted by *solarflare* »_So maybe even better would be a computer analysis of various parameters such as, outside temp, length of current trip, average engine rpm, temperature, time running and vehicle speed. All of these parameters are currently monitored so all that would be needed is a model to compare them against to determine much more accurate oil life.

This is what manufacturers such as Mercedes and BMW are doing, as well as GM.

_Quote, originally posted by *solarflare* »_In addition, the manual for my 2004 Passat specifically stated that 5W30 (with no mention of synthetic only) could be used if the preferred 5W40 was not available. I don't think their intention was for people to use 5W30 exclusively but it wasn't clear and this coupled with the fact that 5W40 is difficult to find outside the dealer it’s no wonder people were using the wrong oil.

The "synthetic" part was implied by the 50x.xx specification -- at the time, the only oils that met the required specification were synthetic. So, the only way you were able to meet the spec was with synthetics. The manual stated you had to meet a specification -- it didn't go into detail as to _how_ you went about meeting it.


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## mark_d_drake (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_
This is what manufacturers such as Mercedes and BMW are doing, as well as GM.


Doesn't VW ((Offer the option of) calculating time between Service Intervals that way in ROW (UK?) markets. Not sure if that applies to Oil Change as well


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (mark_d_drake)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mark_d_drake* »_Doesn't VW ((Offer the option of) calculating time between Service Intervals that way in ROW (UK?) markets. Not sure if that applies to Oil Change as well

Mark,
As far as I know, most (if not all) ROW VW applications are on a variable service interval, which takes into account running conditions, times, etc. However, the oils required for this run about $20 a quart and are not available in the NAR.


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## kghia (Nov 16, 2006)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_Without making any comment on the validity of that statement, I think it is worth noting that most people who buy (or lease) new vehicles generally don't keep them longer than 3 or 4 years. Thus, the point is you make is moot.

I know that those people are out there, but *please do not encourage anybody to think this way!* Americans treating cars as diposable is enough of a problem already!!
I will probably try to get a look at my used oil next time, and think about doing "between changes" myself, with an extractor.
But then, I take good care of my cars-- *as EVERYBODY should*
Too many Americans don't care about door dings, salt on the road, etc etc because they don't expect to keep and value the car for very long, and it isn't a very good for those who might buy that car, or park next to it, etc
William


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (chrisj428)*

We have a great discussion going here, so it is time to stoke the fire with another controversial theory, just to keep the passion alive.
Had some discussion with both the Esso rep at work, and a friend of mine who is the local Amsoil rep. regarding synthetics and extended oil change intervals. Here is some of what they both agreed on.
Because oil degradation is based primarily on suspended solids and contaminants, and the breakdown of the additive package, synthetic oils are not really capable of extending oil change intervals strictly on their own merit.
Synthetics gain an advantage due to having more consistent molecular sizing which allows for more stringent filtering of the oil.
The analogy they used was this:
Group 2, mineral based oil, has a molecular structure similar to filling a closet with beach balls, basket balls, baseballs and golf balls. (i.e a wide variance in molecular sizing)
Group 4, synthetic oils, have a molecular structure similar to filling a closet with baseballs and golf balls. (i.e much more similar molecular sizing)
Group 3 synthetics are somewhere in between.
If you want to remove all the balls from the closet without opening the door, you would have to cut a hole large enough to get the largest ball ball through the door.
An oil filter has the same principle. The holes in the filter membrane (micron size) have to be at least large enough to allow the largest oil molecule to pass through.
Therefore, if you have a smaller, more consistent, oil molecule size, you can improve the ability (quality) of the fliter to remove dirt and other suspended contaminants by reducing the micron size of the filter element.
Essentially, they both agree that the true ability of synthetics to extend oil change intervals is more dependant on the ability to utilize higher quality filters, than any specific lubricating characteristic of the synthetic oil itself.
Kevin











_Modified by just4fun at 1:56 PM 4-11-2007_


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## WolfsburgerMitFries (Jul 4, 2005)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (just4fun)*

I think you bring up a good point Kevin. If it were possible to pull out the oil, and really filter out the contaminants with a filtration system much better than an automotive oil filter (which really is not very fine) then reinstall the same oil, you could potentially go longer on the same oil. My biggest concern is the increased fuel consumption over time from oil laden with soot and fine metal particles, and accumulation of corrosive materials as a result of blow-by. And I'm sure the buildup of contaminants increases the likelihood of oil to form sludge in an engine.
Its just a matter of economics, oil changes are really cheap. If an oil change cost $350 or more, it would be a different story, but for the additional fuel consumed from 5k to 10k on an extended interval, you're probably gonna spend more than the cost of an oil change in additional fuel consumption (remember we have to use premium fuel too) premium is now $3.09 here today. Plus environmental impact of increased fuel consumption. Used motor oil goes to the home heating oil market...reducing the need to consume crude oil for that purpose...its not like your old oil is dumped in the ground or piped out to sea like sewage.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_there wasn't a "fudge factor" for actually hitting that interval (ref: Moore, et. al.; _Yield in 83 metres_, ZRH DPW, copyright 2005) and people were pushing it. 5,000 miles meant 5,000 miles on that engine. Not 6,250. Not 5,835. Not even 5,300. 5,000. Period.

For the benefit of all the new Eos forum members, the citation mentioned in Chris's quote above is a bit of an inside joke within the Phaeton forum. We were having a discussion a few years ago about how precise round numbers actually are - and I posted this photograph of a traffic sign from the village I live in when I am in Switzerland. Needless to say, it is typically Swiss.
Michael


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## WolfsburgerMitFries (Jul 4, 2005)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (PanEuropean)*

Next time I'm in Switzerland, I'll be sure to bring my Stabila laser distance meter. I'll have to set it for ROW units though.


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (WolfsburgerMitFries)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfsburgerMitFries* »_I think you bring up a good point Kevin. If it were possible to pull out the oil, and really filter out the contaminants with a filtration system much better than an automotive oil filter (which really is not very fine) then reinstall the same oil, you could potentially go longer on the same oil. 


Not that I disagree with you Wolf, but the point they were making was that synthetic oil, used in combination with an oil filter designed for synthetic oil, can effectively extend the oil change interval.
I know this opens a whole 'nother can of worms for discussion: Have filter manufactures significantly improved the design/materials of automotive oil filters to keep pace with synthetic oils??
While the discussion begins here, I'll go see what I can Google up on filters.
Kevin


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## _Rick_V_ (Jan 21, 2007)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (WolfsburgerMitFries)*

Hey Wolfsburger,
Don't get me wrong, I understand where your passion comes from.







But, I am truly curious on what your take is on the GM article I linked to above (to save scrolling, this one: http://www.americascarshow.com...Past_ ). 
Those GM engineers seem pretty passionate and confident in their system. Do you think the guys down in marketing are making them make those claims? Do you think it's hype? If you had to drive a GM car, would you ignore the computer and go with more frequent oil changes?


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## WolfsburgerMitFries (Jul 4, 2005)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (_Rick_V_)*


_Quote, originally posted by *_Rick_V_* »_Hey Wolfsburger,
Don't get me wrong, I understand where your passion comes from.







But, I am truly curious on what your take is on the GM article I linked to above (to save scrolling, this one: http://www.americascarshow.com...Past_ ). 
Those GM engineers seem pretty passionate and confident in their system. Do you think the guys down in marketing are making them make those claims? Do you think it's hype? If you had to drive a GM car, would you ignore the computer and go with more frequent oil changes?

Sorry for the ramble....
I've had GM cars (as spares), and they were very reliable. GM also has excellent engines, they are just low tech, but with proper maintenance they will last as long as you want them to. There is some planned obsolescence in GM cars, notably rear disk brakes and FWD steering racks with morning sickness, but that's getting off topic. 
I firmly believe reliability is more a factor of the owner, or conditions of ownership, and less to do with the type of car. I live in a temperate climate, look after my cars well, and don't abuse/race them. My current consumable automobile for Wal-mart door dings and winter road salt is a 95 Dodge Caravan with the Mitsubishi sourced 3.0L that just turned 153K miles. I expect it to start on the first try every time, I expect it to run smoothly and deliver the best gas mileage possible. And that's exactly what it does, because its cared for. 
My first car with an oil service reminder was a 1984 BMW 325e. Oil service based on individualized calculations has been around for a long time. I laugh whenever somebody discovers this "neat" new feature on their car, as if its a recent development...then I make sure to welcome them to 1984. GM, as usual, is 20 years late to the oil service indicator party. The engine management for my former 325e is Bosch Motronic 1.1 and the oil service reminder was calculated based on miles, number of cold starts, number of 100% throttle loggings. So naturally that car got 3000 mile conventional oil changes from me, and I completely ignored the oil service indicator, just like I ignore all oil service reminders...I don't need a reminder, I'm on top of the oil issue. After a hit-and-run, that BMW (which was my spare car) went to the junkyard with a perfect in-line-6 that had 183K miles. My BMW dealer (who is also the VW dealer) had such an arrogant service manager that I learned to reset the oil service indicator myself....at that time, you had to make your own tool, open the Motronic connector under the hood, and jump a couple of pins. It was such a pleasure to demonstrate my problem solving skills, and free myself of dealer dependency. Modern cars can normally be reset much more easily on the dashboard. I was happy to hear the BMW service manager was relived of his duties recently.
Synthetic oil changes cost less than $30 if you catch synthetic oil on sale. Conventional oil changes cost about $16. Its not that much more to have it done at a garage (do shop it around, its a simple service and competent oil changes are not limited to the dealer). This is cheap insurance for your engine, and to guarantee good fuel economy. Its not a root canal, and its not a second mortgage...oil changes are easy and cheap. How many people around here drink $4 a cup coffee? I'm sure you can go more than 3000 miles safely on oil, but are you really so tight that you think 5000 miles is an excessively frequent interval? And like I said before, that old 1984 325e was the first car I ever had that calculated MPG on the trip computer, and you could see the MPG average steadily diminish as the oil aged and became saturated with contaminants, and based on my experience with cars that have on board MPG calculation, I firmly believe that extended oil changes cost more in increased fuel consumption than they save in reduced maintenance costs.
Also, you have to consider the type of engine you have. Got a normally aspirated V8 that stays pretty low in the rev range and holds 8 quarts of oil (like a Phaeton)? Sure, you won't have to change oil as often as a higher revving, harder working 4 cylinder. Then add the heat stress of a turbo to the oil equation and you can quickly see that you have 2 different situations which require different approaches. Excessive heat kills everything...asphalt shingles on your roof, electronics, and motor oil. If you've got a turbo, you've got excessive heat.
There's no reason for anyone to get bent out of shape on this issue, people are going to have different approaches. Some people are gonna lease and be done in 3 years, they don't care. I like to load up a car with options, and keep it for a while. I don't consider a new base model every 3 years to be a luxury.
I think the elephant in the room that nobody has brought up is that many significantly different engines are being painted with the same brush (or schedule as it were). Sticking with the NAR Eos, both the normally aspirated 3.2 that holds 5.8 quarts, and the turbocharged 2.0 that holds 4.9 quarts end up with the same oil change requirements? That's interesting.




_Modified by WolfsburgerMitFries at 11:00 AM 4-12-2007_


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## WolfsburgerMitFries (Jul 4, 2005)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (WolfsburgerMitFries)*

Quickly, I sort of forgot...and it deals with your original question Rick. Up a few posts I found that Toyota, as of 2004, reduced their oil change recommendation from 7500 to 5000 miles. GM engineers say one thing, Toyota says another, VW says this, other's say that. In the end there's alot of factors that influence the equation. 




_Modified by WolfsburgerMitFries at 2:20 AM 4-12-2007_


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## solarflare (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (WolfsburgerMitFries)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfsburgerMitFries* »_Sorry for the ramble....
Sticking with the NAR Eos, both the normally aspirated 3.2 that holds 5.8 quarts, and the turbocharged 2.0 that holds 4.9 quarts end up with the same oil change requirements? That's interesting.
_Modified by WolfsburgerMitFries at 2:27 AM 4-12-2007_

Yes that is interesting and further indicates that ease of ownership (less frequent trips to the dealer and lower cost, Marketing) is more dominant in determining maintenance schedules then maximizing vehicle life. After all, they want to sell you another car in a few years right?
I'm curious what the original change interval was on 1.8t after it was introduced? Was it 10k miles too but then reduced to 5k miles when people started having issues?
I also find it curious that VW specifies such high quality oil to be used but then says don't bother changing it for 10k miles. Maybe the answer to this is what Kevin hit on earlier. Is the VW oil filter the key to extended oil change intervals? If so this should be stated and bold faced somewhere in the owners manual. I would love to see the specs for the VW filter vs one from Fram or Purolator.


_Modified by solarflare at 6:23 AM 4-12-2007_


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (just4fun)*


_Quote, originally posted by *just4fun* »_
While the discussion begins here, I'll go see what I can Google up on filters.
Kevin










I couldn't find any earth shaking information identifying technical advancements to automotive oil filters.
Seems the biggest change is a switch from what is essentially a paper filter element to synthetic micro fibre filter elements.
A couple articles I found from independant sources confirmed that high quality micro fibre filters were superior in removing smaller contaminant particles, and were better able to hold the particles without allowing them to "wash off" and re-enter the oil stream.
Mobil 1 and Amsoil were the only two micro fibre filters I could find any info on. The info was found on the individual manufactures/suppliers site, so obliviously they were tooting their own horn a bit.
Here is a link to a pretty good home garage filter study, not conclusive, but interesting.
http://minimopar.knizefamily.n....html
Here is link to the WIX website, doesn't identify their media type, but a good explanation of oil filter function.
http://www.wixfilters.com/prod....html
Kevin










_Modified by just4fun at 6:34 AM 4-12-2007_


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (WolfsburgerMitFries)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfsburgerMitFries* »_I'm sure you can go more than 3000 miles safely on oil, but are you really so tight that you think 5000 miles is an excessively frequent interval?

For me, it's not so much a question of money, but (a) what benefit is derived and (b) at what cost environmentally.
I figure an oil change on my V8 is going to run around $75 USD. I don't mind paying that every 5,000 miles _if that is what is going to be necessary to get 200,000 miles out of this engine_. However, if I will still get 200,00 miles out of the engine with changing the oil every 10,000 miles, then why waste the money? This is the question which I hope to have answered through oil analysis.
Furthermore, while I'm told used motor oil goes into the "home heating oil" pipeline, I haven't seen anything substantiating that claim. And, what of the used filters and empty bottles -- what becomes of those? I can't think of a dealer I've ever been in which recycles those bottles.

_Quote, originally posted by *solarflare* »_I'm curious what the original change interval was on 1.8t after it was introduced? Was it 10k miles too but then reduced to 5k miles when people started having issues?

No. The oil change intervals on the 1.8t (as well as the 90° 30-valve 2.8 litre V6 engines) were always every 5,000 miles.


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## WolfsburgerMitFries (Jul 4, 2005)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_
For me, it's not so much a question of money, but (a) what benefit is derived and (b) at what cost environmentally.


(a) decreased fuel consumption = cash savings for you.
(b) lower emissions from burning less fossil fuels, net environmental gain.
I feel 5000 mile oil change intervals will offer a net environmental advantage/gain. Change your oil at 5K and you send 5-8 quarts of oil to the home heating oil market, but you'll burn less gas over the next 5000 miles than someone driving on old oil from 5-10K miles. How many gallons of crude oil does it take to get 1 gallon of gas? Its a no-brainer. If you want to be environmentally friendly, you'll keep your engine running under the most ideal conditions possible, and oil in the 5000-10,000 mile range is far from ideal.




_Modified by WolfsburgerMitFries at 4:24 PM 4-12-2007_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (solarflare)*


_Quote, originally posted by *solarflare* »_I also find it curious that VW specifies such high quality oil to be used but then says don't bother changing it for 10k miles. Maybe the answer to this is what Kevin hit on earlier. Is the VW oil filter the key to extended oil change intervals?

I doubt if the filter has anything at all to do with the recent increase in oil change intervals - both fixed intervals and extended (conditional) service intervals.
Most aircraft use a very simple wire mesh filter in the oil system - all it does is catch particles, nothing more - yet these aircraft have NO oil change interval. In other words, it doesn't matter whether it is a 747 or a Dash 8 regional turboprop, the oil will never ever be changed except when the engine is removed from the wing for overhaul - which could be as long as 20,000 hours or 8 years of service.
The enabler is the oil itself, which is fully synthetic. Volkswagen has just recently made the transition to fully synthetic oils (hence the importance of only using an oil that meets the exact VW specification for your engine). The synthetic oils are more resistant to breakdown, and, the newer engines have less piston ring blow-by, etc., therefore fewer contaminants get into the oil to accelerate breakdown.
I rather suspect that the VW filters are nothing more than reasonably high quality paper filters - I doubt if they have any magic ingredient. There are some pictures of the filters at this thread in the Phaeton forum: Change in Oil Filter design - W12 Engine.
Michael


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## WolfsburgerMitFries (Jul 4, 2005)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_
Furthermore, while I'm told used motor oil goes into the "home heating oil" pipeline, I haven't seen anything substantiating that claim. 

Valvoline's worldwide headquarters and test facilities are based here, I used to work for them while in college. And that's exactly how used oil is "recycled", they don't refine it again or filter it out (at least not around here although it is possible). Its collected and sold as one of the components in home heating oil.
http://www.earth911.org/master...s.asp
"Re-Use and Reprocessing
Both lubricants, such as motor oil, and fuels, such as heating oil, are petroleum products. When an oil can no longer perform its original lubrication job, it may be perfectly suitable for Re-use and a second life as a fuel petroleum product in, say, a power plant with little or no treatment. If some treatment is needed, reprocessing of used motor oil removes some water and particles so that the oil can be burned and used as fuel to generate heat or electricity for commercial operations. 74% of all oil re-use/recycling in the U.S. is for burning in turbines, incinerators, power plants, cement kilns and manufacturing facilities (asphalt, steel, etc…). An additional 11% of used motor oil is burned in specifically designed industrial space heaters. *This creates a valuable form of energy, which helps our economy by avoiding the need to refine new commercial heating oil from imported crude oil."*




_Modified by WolfsburgerMitFries at 4:23 PM 4-12-2007_


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (WolfsburgerMitFries)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfsburgerMitFries* »_When an oil can no longer perform its original lubrication job, it may be perfectly suitable for Re-use and a second life as a fuel petroleum product in, say, a power plant with little or no treatment.

Not to split hairs, Jeremiah, but this is saying that a suitable use for expired motor oil is to recycle it as a fuel/heating product. And used tires may be recycled into aggregate for paving or playground safety. However, thousands of tires still find their way into landfills, just as thousands of aluminium cans find their way into dumps.
What I need to see is something that shows the oil leaving my dealership is actually being recycled in this manner. Additionally, if the oil is being transported _back_ to Kentucky from, say -- in my case, Chicago, there is an additional environmental toll in its transportation.
I would also like to see quanitiative data showing exactly how much of an impact old oil has on fuel consumption -- this would determine exactly where the cost/benefit lines cross if you're going to shorten the manufacturer-recommended intervals. It's a bit like the speed limits in the US. Sure, I can reduce fuel consumption by lowering speed limits from 75 to 55. However, I can reduce consumption even more my lowering the speed limit to 45 -- at what point is the benefit no longer worth the cost?
I was always told that reusing and recycling are very effective means of saving the environment, but reduction of initial use is the principle way through which conservation is achieved.


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## WolfsburgerMitFries (Jul 4, 2005)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_
I would also like to see quanitiative data showing exactly how much of an impact old oil has on fuel consumption -- this would determine exactly where the cost/benefit lines cross if you're going to shorten the manufacturer-recommended intervals. 

Get a car with a trip computer that calcualtes average MPG and you will see the fuel consumption increase as the oil ages. There's your reduction of initial use (of gasoline).
If you would like to know the ultimate destiny of your used oil in Chicago, I would encourage you to contact the company that collects the used oil in your area and find out. I think you'll find there is a need for home heating oil locally, it does not get transported 400 miles here...i'll assure you of that.



_Modified by WolfsburgerMitFries at 5:49 PM 4-12-2007_


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (WolfsburgerMitFries)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WolfsburgerMitFries* »_If you would like to know the ultimate destiny of your used oil in Chicago, I would encourage you to contact the company that collects the used oil in your area and find out. I think you'll find there is a need for home heating oil locally, it does not get transported 400 miles here...i'll assure you of that.

I'm sure there is _some_ need in the midwest for heating oil, however the data supplied by the Department of Energy in a 2001 survey show that 76% of the home heating oil is used in the Northeast, with the Midwest & South using approximately 10% each and the West using about 2%. Whereas, natural gas usage shows a somewhat more even distribution among regions (NE: 18.6%, MW: 29%, S: 28% & W: 24%). The data are available here: RESIDENTIAL ENERGY CONSUMPTION SURVEY 2001. It's actually a pretty interesting read.
I don't want to start a debate on home heating fuel usage by region -- my point is: I'm not convinced that, net/net, there is a benefit to my "carbon footprint" by my changing my oil more often.


_Modified by chrisj428 at 4:12 PM 4-12-2007_


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## solarflare (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
Most aircraft use a very simple wire mesh filter in the oil system - all it does is catch particles, nothing more - yet these aircraft have NO oil change interval. In other words, it doesn't matter whether it is a 747 or a Dash 8 regional turboprop, the oil will never ever be changed except when the engine is removed from the wing for overhaul - which could be as long as 20,000 hours or 8 years of service.
Michael

I'm not familiar with jet engine construction but I suspect the contaminants created inside a jet engine (if any) are very different then those created inside an internal combustion engine. 

_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
The synthetic oils are more resistant to breakdown, and, the newer engines have less piston ring blow-by, etc., therefore fewer contaminants get into the oil to accelerate breakdown.
Michael

I don't think synthetics are any more capable of suspending contaminants then regular oil. I suspect the problem with the 1.8t engine was poor crankcase ventilation or excessive blow-by or both. VW knew this, hence, the 5k mile interval even with synthetic oil. Oil life is very dependent on the engine design and condition.

_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_
I figure an oil change on my V8 is going to run around $75 USD. I don't mind paying that every 5,000 miles _if that is what is going to be necessary to get 200,000 miles out of this engine_. However, if I will still get 200,00 miles out of the engine with changing the oil every 10,000 miles, then why waste the money? This is the question which I hope to have answered through oil analysis.


I think that is the bottom line. I need proof that 10k mile oil change intervals will allow an engine to last 200K miles or beyond but I'm not willing to experiment on my engine. If I could see proof or maybe a guarantee from the manufacture that the engine will not suffer significant wear and tear for 200k miles with 10k mile change intervals I could change my way of thinking. Until that time I'll stick to 4k. 
Chris I would be very interested in your oil analysis results. Where do you send samples?
-Erik


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_
This is the question which I hope to have answered through oil analysis.


If you're willing, please share the results of your oil analysis, I would be very interested to see the results.
Kevin


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (solarflare)*


_Quote, originally posted by *solarflare* »_I don't think synthetics are any more capable of suspending contaminants then regular oil. 

Hi Eric:
I wasn't thinking of the issue of suspending contaminants when I wrote _"The synthetic oils are more resistant to breakdown, and, the newer engines have less piston ring blow-by, etc., therefore fewer contaminants get into the oil to accelerate breakdown."_ What I had in mind - and I am really not sure if this is a big issue or not - is that there are probably less combustion byproducts and unburned hydrocarbons getting into the oil nowadays because of tighter clearances between the combustion end of the cylinder and the lower end where the oil is. Hence, less stuff that would accelerate chemical breakdown of the oil.
As for physical contaminants - if a solid object gets into the oil (dust particle, bit of crud, whatever), my guess is that the paper filter will catch it and prevent it from circulating around. Turbine aircraft engines probably create far fewer chemical contaminants than a piston engine, but they probably suffer much the same from the problem of physical contaminants - dirt from the outside, carbon particles, metal particles from the engine, stuff like that.
Michael


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (chrisj428)*


_Quote, originally posted by *chrisj428* »_
For me, it's not so much a question of money, but (a) what benefit is derived and (b) at what cost environmentally.


Chris,
Here is an article off Amsoils site that you may find interesting. Obliviously they are promoting their product, and extended oil change intervals, but the general information is interesting.
http://www.thebestoil.com/green.asp
Kevin


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (PanEuropean)*

Here is an article from Amsoil that has some good general information of the different charaterstics of oils, and how they are tested.
Once again, this information may be subject to a certain amount of propaganda, but the general information is interesting, and it does provide some support for the theory that a high quality synthetic oil could provide extended oil life.
http://www.syntheticwarehouse....d.htm
Kevin


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## solarflare (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
As for physical contaminants - if a solid object gets into the oil (dust particle, bit of crud, whatever), my guess is that the paper filter will catch it and prevent it from circulating around. 
Michael

Michael,
I think the physical contaminants are from combustion by-products as well. Much of these gases, carbon deposits, etc (combustion by-products) are sucked out of the crankcase and reburned via the PCV system. What doesn't is supposed to get suspended in the oil to be removed by either the oil filter or, if the particles are too small, by an oil change. I believe oil life is more limited by it's ability to suspend particles then it's lubricating abilities. Once the oil can no longer suspend these contaminant particles they start to settle out of the oil to be deposited back onto internal engine parts and the bottom of the oil pan. That's sludge and if enough of it accumulates it will block the oil pump intake, which in turn will make your life miserable. 
With all the unique and sophisticated sensors that companies develop you would think someone would be able to develop one for this purpose instead of playing the guessing game. Now that oil is increasing in value perhaps someone will develop an oil condition sensor for use in cars.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (solarflare)*


_Quote, originally posted by *solarflare* »_With all the unique and sophisticated sensors that companies develop you would think someone would be able to develop one for this purpose instead of playing the guessing game. Now that oil is increasing in value perhaps someone will develop an oil condition sensor for use in cars.

Well - the truth is that Volkswagen developed a very sophisticated system for evaluating thermal loading, thermal cycles, oil viscosity, miles travelled, and nature of duty cycles (city vs. highway) in the late 1990s and incorporated it into ALL of their cars. In other words, every VW product built since 1999 has had the capability to be put on an "on-condition" extended oil change interval, and when this system is used, the car monitors all the items that I mentioned (as well as mileage travelled and calender time elapsed), then begins to notify the driver of the need for an oil change about 2,000 miles before it will be due.
In order to use this extended service protocol, the coding (programming) on the car must be changed to enable it, and the engine has to be filled with a special "long-life" oil that costs about USD $20 per quart. Typically, the car can go up to 20,000 miles or 2 years between oil changes.
Every VW sold in Europe since 1999 has been sold with this extended service protocol enabled, and with long-life oil installed at the factory. Volkswagen of America has decided (quite wisely, I believe) that because it is well proven that American car owners do not read the owner manual and do not believe it is necessary to follow the instructions in the owner manual, it would be suicide to enable this long-life oil program in North America - owners would drive until the first reminder, then take the car to a Jiffy-Lube and get a $9.99 oil change without paying for the special $20 a quart oil, and all hell would break loose. For this reason, the software for the extended oil change interval is permanently disabled in all NAR VWs, even though all the required hardware and sensors are present on all VWs made since 1999, Eos included.
Michael


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## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (just4fun)*


_Quote, originally posted by *just4fun* »_Had some discussion with both the Esso rep at work, and a friend of mine who is the local Amsoil rep. regarding synthetics and extended oil change intervals. Here is some of what they both agreed on.
Because oil degradation is based primarily on suspended solids and contaminants, and the breakdown of the additive package, synthetic oils are not really capable of extending oil change intervals strictly on their own merit.
Synthetics gain an advantage due to having more consistent molecular sizing which allows for more stringent filtering of the oil.
The analogy they used was this:
Group 2, mineral based oil, has a molecular structure similar to filling a closet with beach balls, basket balls, baseballs and golf balls. (i.e a wide variance in molecular sizing)
Group 4, synthetic oils, have a molecular structure similar to filling a closet with baseballs and golf balls. (i.e much more similar molecular sizing)
Group 3 synthetics are somewhere in between.
If you want to remove all the balls from the closet without opening the door, you would have to cut a hole large enough to get the largest ball ball through the door.
An oil filter has the same principle. The holes in the filter membrane (micron size) have to be at least large enough to allow the largest oil molecule to pass through.
Therefore, if you have a smaller, more consistent, oil molecule size, you can improve the ability (quality) of the fliter to remove dirt and other suspended contaminants by reducing the micron size of the filter element.
Essentially, they both agree that the true ability of synthetics to extend oil change intervals is more dependant on the ability to utilize higher quality filters, than any specific lubricating characteristic of the synthetic oil itself.

There is so much blinding misinformation in the above post that I want to cry.








Neither your Esso rep nor your Amsoil rep should ever open their mouths about oils again.
Group I: Solvent-refined paraffininc oils. Those refined by solvent extraction of crude oil stocks, having aliphatic (straight chain) structures and heteroatomic chains. Contain waxes.
Group II: Hydrotreated napthenic stocks. Those refined by hydrogenation of crude fractions having aliphatic and branched chains and alicyclic (saturated ring) structures. Fewer hetero atoms are present.
Group III: Severly hydrotreated stocks. Those refined and hydrotreated "within an inch of their lives". Aliphatic structures, no heteroatomics, and includes all white grades. Generally Iso-Dewaxed (R).
Group IV: Polyalphaolefins. Those products synthesized from olefin stocks having a terminal olefin group (double bond). Fractions are defined by chain length.
Group V: Ester stocks. Originally vegetable triglycerides, now commonly synthetic esters from vegetable fatty acids and complex polyhydric alcohols.
"Size" has little to do with the different types of basestocks. Chemistry and functional groups have everything to do with them. 
Synthetic oils outperform petroleum stocks because they are more thermally stable and more thermo-oxidatively stable than the petroleum stocks. They are nitrogen and sulfur-free, meaning that they have fewer internal points at which degradation can be catalysed. This is shown in numerous papers, search for the work of E Yamaguchi at Chevron to gain more insight.
Both Group IV and Group V stocks will "last longer" in any engine test than the corresponding Group I/II/III stocks because they are designed to have better thermal resistance. Each crank cycle inputs a fixed amount of thermal energy (Q) to the oil. The oil can release xQ per molecule and absorbs yQ per molecule. The longitudinal 1.8t coked (not sludged!!!!!) because there were not enough molecules (too small of total oil capacity) to absorb and release the Q from 5000 miles of crank cycles in a timely manner.
The additive packages in all oils will degrade at roughly the same rate, regardless of basestock.


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## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (atomicalex)*

Used oil is recycled locally by your Safety-Kleen franchise, and reformulated into all sorts of re-refined basestocks. Most of these go into inexpensive greases and machining oils.
Some days I hate working in this industry.
Oil filters only affect the performance of the lubrication system of a vehicle if they substantially increase the total oil volume of the system. This is why VW increased the size of the filter on the longitudinally mounted 1.8t.
Long ago, I used to guesstimate OCI using the following formula:
Sump volume in quarts = OCI in miles
cylinder vol in litres x 2
It only works for NA motors, but it gets you into the ballpark.


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (atomicalex)*

Alex,
Thank you!
And, plugging my numbers into your formula:

_Quote, originally posted by *atomicalex* »_Long ago, I used to guesstimate OCI using the following formula:
Sump volume in quarts = OCI in miles
cylinder vol in litres x 2

I come up with 9524 miles -- which is right in the 10,000 mile ballpark you mentioned.








Everyone else,
Against her will, I asked Alex to have a look at this thread & contribute her expertise. She is actually a member of the oil industry and has forgotten more about oil than I will ever know.
Whenever there's a question of oil, I defer to her.









_Modified by chrisj428 at 12:47 PM 4-13-2007_


_Modified by chrisj428 at 12:50 PM 4-13-2007_


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## solarflare (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (atomicalex)*


_Quote, originally posted by *atomicalex* »_
Long ago, I used to guesstimate OCI using the following formula:
Sump volume in quarts = OCI in miles
cylinder vol in litres x 2
It only works for NA motors, but it gets you into the ballpark.

Is there a constant missing in your equation? 4.5qts/(2.0l x 2) = 1.25 what?
What is "coked". Weren't the problems with the 1.8t sludge?


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## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (solarflare)*

Cylinder volume, not total swept volume of the engine. 2.0 = 0.5l per cylinder. Cylinder size is roughly proportional to the amount of heat put out in each combustion cycle.
The longitudinal 1.8t did not "sludge". It coked. The oil thermally degraded to the point of becoming bits of charcoal, which then clogged the oil pickup in the sump, starving the running journals. Sludging is a gradual thickening of the oil to the point of becoming unpumpable. This was not the case with the 1.8t - the oil that was not coked was still pretty much in spec, it just couldn't get to the pump.


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## solarflare (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (atomicalex)*

Very Interesting! So everyone has been mistakenly stating sludge when that wasn't the issue at all! 
Chris, how did you get 9524? I'm still missing something


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (solarflare)*


_Quote, originally posted by *solarflare* »_Very Interesting! So everyone has been mistakenly stating sludge when that wasn't the issue at all! 

This is actually true -- when we had oil pressure issues, they were solved by replacing the oil pump & pickup tube. As atomicalex mentioned, the screens were fouled with large black particles -- coke.

_Quote, originally posted by *solarflare* »_Chris, how did you get 9524? I'm still missing something









By not following the directions very well (after re-reading aa's clarification)







:
quarts/(cylinder vol x 2) =oci
Well, I plugged in the engine volume, just like you did -- I just got lucky with the numbers. Here's what I came up with (erroneously, I might add):
8 quarts/(4.2 litre V8 x 2) = 0.95238, which I just rounded to 9524 miles.








It should have read:
8 quarts/((4.2 litre V8 / 8 cylinders) x 2) = 7.619, which I have no idea how to interpret.








Hopefully Alex will pop back over and clarify.


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## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (solarflare)*

Oops, thousands of miles! Sorry!
(3.7Q)/(0.45*2) = 4.111 = 4K miles. 
Ths formula goes back to the days when the SBC was high tech, so it's not quite as accurate what with newer oils and all, but it's good for the old stuff and NA motors.


_Modified by atomicalex at 3:31 PM 4-13-2007_


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## Timokreon (Nov 13, 2006)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (solarflare)*

Good evening everyone!








I just wanted to input a bit. I believe someone asked what kind of oil filter we have on the Eos. Did a little search and I believe they are Mann oil filters.
From here  http://www.mann-hummel.com/mf_...sl=28
Hope that helps whomever asked.


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## solarflare (Mar 28, 2007)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (atomicalex)*

I spent a little time on the internet to see if I could find a survey or some additional data on how frequently other people have changed the oil in their cars and the current miles on their engines and if they experienced any engine wear problems. I found this site with many people following the manufacturers change interval with no issues and with engine well past the 100,000 mile mark. 
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/0...erval/
And here's a site with additional formulas similar to Alex's above but more up to date.
http://neptune.spacebears.com/....html
I also find the consumer report study mentions in the first link interesting about the New York City cab experiment and wish I could find that study. Perhaps the 3000 mile change interval has been pounded too far into my head. After reading articles like this one perhaps I'll adhere to the manufacturers recommendation. 
http://www.xs11.com/stories/croil96.shtml
I probably even send a sample of the used moter oil to a lab to verify.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/
Great Discussion!
-Erik


_Modified by solarflare at 7:15 AM 4-14-2007_


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## wrh3 (Mar 18, 2004)

I don't have an EOS but occasionally lurk as I am thinking about one for my wife. I found this discussion interesting.
I have had 5 other VWs in the past 3 years (still have two of them) and have followed the 10k recommended intervals for the non-turbo cars and 5k for the turbo cars. When I send my oil in for testing it always comes back as having more life left.
http://www.bobistheoilguys.com has forums where users post their oil analysis results if you are interested. I have posted my oil analysis results for my cars on my web site as well.
With synthetic oil, 10k is not an unreasonable interval for NA cars and 5k for turbo cars and I may even stretch that out once I am out of warranty based on oil analysis results.


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## jettaivglxvr6 (Dec 26, 2001)

*Re: (wrh3)*


_Quote, originally posted by *wrh3* »_
With synthetic oil, 10k is not an unreasonable interval for NA cars and 5k for turbo cars and I may even stretch that out once I am out of warranty based on oil analysis results.

Now I am referring to my 1.9 PD-TDI, which has a (small) turbo, but it is recommended and absolutely fine to do 10k mile interval oil changes after the first one at 5k miles. [VW's recommended Castrol]
Since I have been away at school for the past 3 years, and my parents have 4 cars at home, my Dad's Jetta VR6 gets only around 1500 miles a year. Regardless, he still gets the oil changed once a year with Mobil 1 synthetic. Waste.. probably. Does it feel good to get it changed... yes.


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (just4fun)*


_Quote, originally posted by *just4fun* »_If you're willing, please share the results of your oil analysis, I would be very interested to see the results.


I didn't think to get a TBN analysis. As for the fiscosity variation, Alex wasn't concerned and I was even less concerned when I realized I may have given the lab the wrong information initially...I told them it was 5W40 and there's a chance it could have been 5W30 since I didn't own the car when that oil change was performed.


_Modified by chrisj428 at 8:52 PM 4-15-2007_


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## just4fun (Oct 29, 2006)

*Re: Oil Change: Time vs. Miles? (chrisj428)*

Thanks Chris.
Kevin


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