# Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK



## ALEX_GTI_1.8T_2003 (Mar 28, 2003)

As stated above what do the people that have these on their car think of them performance wise and maintanece.


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## billzcat1 (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (ALEX_GTI_1.8T_2003)*

Most people here haven't tried multiple big-brake companies to really be able to ojectively answer this poll.
I've got lots to say but given what I just said ^ I would be giving you my biased opinion.


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## ALEX_GTI_1.8T_2003 (Mar 28, 2003)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (billzcat1)*

Ok what you are saying is true but please give me your opinion it is very appretiated and others are also welcome thats the point!!!!


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## M this 1! (May 17, 2000)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (ALEX_GTI_1.8T_2003)*

you need a 4th option:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1396466
these are serious brakes, and they come in either 13" or 14". picture shows both. i had the 13" for a bit until the final 14" kit was ready. they only make brakes for VW/Audi and Alcon is on a HUGE number of rally and F1 cars. call them and pick their brain, you won't regret the phone call.


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## ALEX_GTI_1.8T_2003 (Mar 28, 2003)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (M this 1!)*

Are you Nathan? You'r car was in european car, and you know Peter for VW Santa Monica????
If so I have to talk to you asap regarding a new turbo kit I'm bringing in for europe.
Please email me [email protected]


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## EvilVento2.oT (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (ALEX_GTI_1.8T_2003)*

what about willwood


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## Krazee (Jan 26, 2003)

Yeah...Id offer up Wilwoods but with Superlite 4s or Superlite 6s....dynalites are pathetic compared to those. As previously mentioned, there Alcon...theres also Tarox.


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## EvilVento2.oT (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: (KrazeeKorrado13)*

I have run dyna lite billets on about 4 different chasis(a1 rabbits to b5.5 passat's) rember the is not the most important thing its swept area eg. you can have a 6pot caliper on a 10inch rotor that will be out braked by a 4 pot on a 11 inch rotor, why the rotorhas more swept area and cools beter and thus can dissipate more heat .And beacause braking is changing kinetic energy to heat enegry it will be beter,


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## Krazee (Jan 26, 2003)

Agreed. My statement about the Dynalites was comparing it to Wilwoods other Calipers. On the 11" rotors, Dynalites are where its at. 12 and up, Wilwoods Superlite calipers are good stuff. Of note, Tarox makes a 10piston caliper....WOW


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## billzcat1 (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: (EvilVento2.oT)*

There are SO many factors regarding brake function that to narrow it down to one criteria (swept area) would be horribly incorrect.
I'll try to make this as simple as I can to make it short:
The total area of the piston(s) times line pressure is the force the caliper exerts on the pad. In a sliding caliper, multiply piston area by two because it is doing twice the work of a fixed caliper.
This number, multiplied by the coefficient of friction of the pad material is the friction force created.
Friction force created times the average diameter at which it is applied is your brake torque. 
Pad area affects how quickly the pad heats up and pad life, but does not really change brake torque. You could double the pad area, and all other factors remaining equal, it would behave exactly the same but last twice as long.
Swept area is related to diameter, but mostly swept area relates to rotor life. Take the instance of rally cars. Have you ever seen their brakes when they are set up for tarmac stages? The rotor is a very thin ring, about 15-16" in outer diameter, but only about 1" tall. Overall, it has a very small swept area considering its diameter.
The ratio of rotor mass to surface area is what determines how quickly it cools. Also the specific heat of the rotor material, but that is usually all the same. Its very difficult to measure surface area of a vented rotor, but it is fairly easy to tell when it has improved. 
Rotor mass/specific heat on its own determines how energy related to rotor temperatures. Then, the pad characteristics determine what is "too hot".
Brakes are so simple, yet so complicated when you break it down (no pun intended). 
As for the original question, I prefer Brembo - so many OEM cars use them and they handle abuse very well. Parts are readily available, and there are a ton of pad choices. However, compared to wilwoods, they are heavier, take up more space, and have smaller pistons. For a straight race car, I'd do wilwood, for my street car, I chose Brembo


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## ALEX_GTI_1.8T_2003 (Mar 28, 2003)

*Re: (billzcat1)*

Thanks for your input, what do you think of alcon???


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## billzcat1 (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: (ALEX_GTI_1.8T_2003)*

I have no experience with Alcon, but they did make some pretty trick calipers for the Audi Sport Quattro back in the day. 299 mm rotor, 4-piston caliper and it fit under a 15" wheel.


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## Krazee (Jan 26, 2003)

Tarox has something similar to that. Good info billzcat1. I will be running Wilwoods on my street Corrado...I see what you mean as far as Brembo's durability....nevertheless I prefer the weight reduction.....while driving on the street i may not reep the benefits...the times i plan to autocross I will. Good Info.


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## billzcat1 (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: (KrazeeKorrado13)*

Indeed, there are always trade offs! I think I might also build myself a small-diameter wilwood setup for drags. Having a 12.6"/Porsche combo gives a lot of rotational inertia, plus requires the use of heavier 17" wheels. I'm thinking a nice 280x22 Ur-Quattro rotor and a superlite (maybe even a Girling 60, heavy but cheap and effective) for a track setup. An Ur-Quattro wheels (15x8, very light) to go with them Of course, I just want to drag with that setup and thats a ways down the road anyway.
TTYL!


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## ALEX_GTI_1.8T_2003 (Mar 28, 2003)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (ALEX_GTI_1.8T_2003)*

What about AP Racing?


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## SpinEcho (Oct 12, 2003)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (ALEX_GTI_1.8T_2003)*

Have you done a search? This topic has been debated in many posts over the last five or six months. Here's my experiences (again):
I now run Stoptechs on my Corrado. I had a 330 mm AP Racing kit before, and Wilwood Dynalites with stock rotors before that.
The Stoptechs are superior. They have a true floating disc design. I have not had any problems with vibration/uneven pad deposition. The component quality is superior. Everything fits as it should. There are no rattles.
The AP Racing kit did not feature floating discs, even though they were 2 piece. Vibration, presumably from uneven pad deposition and/or warping was a constant problem. The calipers required shims to fit, and they rattled. The pads would shift in place and bind when the car was driven in the rain.
The Wilwoods were useless. I felt they were a bit worse than the stock brakes, in fact.
I have no experience with Brembo, although their reputation precedes them. All I can say is, look for a kit that is matched (balanced) to your car. Stoptechs are just that. And they are less expensive than Brembo. The name isn't as sexy - so what?


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## Krazee (Jan 26, 2003)

SpinEcho: what constitutes a true floating disc?
I am currently having a custom wilwood kit built for my corrado, 12" 4 piston all around, but not with thier Dynalite caliper, but with their Superlite. Since I can only go on looks, the Superlite is a much better than the Dynalite visually....its something more akin to the Stoptech caliper interms of look.
Of note. Wilwood has seemingly gained alot of recognition in the tuner world in the last couple months. Of the kits I have seen, in magazines and on cars, the components look top notch. I have read numerous articles with WRX build ups, tC build ups, etc, etc and all comments have been nothing but praise.
I agree with SpinEcho. Stoptech stuff is top quality, no question. It is a company that has spent much money into R&D to make sure thier stuff works. If I had planed on running 17s, those would have been my choice. but 16s is where Im staying.
Remember. Everything is subjective. For every product you will find those who back it whole-heartedly and those to wont touch it with a 10foot pole.


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## SpinEcho (Oct 12, 2003)

*Re: (KrazeeKorrado13)*

Discs can be 2 piece non-floating (like the AP discs I had) or 2 piece floating. The latter generally come in 2 designs - one where the disc is allowed to expand in radial slots (Stoptech, Brembo, others) and one where the disc is allowed to expand on radial pins (European M3, M5 and all RS6's). The jury is out on which true floating design is better, although I think the radial slot design is superior. The non-floating design does not allow for even expansion. This is bad because the hats are typically made of aluminum and the discs of steel, and they conduct heat differently.
Check out this link to see pictures and a better explanation. 
http://www.stoptech.com/rotorc...n.htm 
KrazeeK, I know you started the thread, but for everyone else, click on this link to see pictures of my Corrado's Stoptech setup and my RS6's brakes for a side by side visual comparison of the 2 floating designs.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1430348


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## machschnellGTI (Mar 17, 2004)

*Re: (SpinEcho)*

If anyone is interested in a Stoptech kit, I work very closely with them and I can get some deals


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## ALEX_GTI_1.8T_2003 (Mar 28, 2003)

*Re: (machschnellGTI)*

How cheap for a 03 MKIV?


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## ALEX_GTI_1.8T_2003 (Mar 28, 2003)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (SpinEcho)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SpinEcho* »_Have you done a search? This topic has been debated in many posts over the last five or six months. Here's my experiences (again):
I now run Stoptechs on my Corrado. I had a 330 mm AP Racing kit before, and Wilwood Dynalites with stock rotors before that.
The Stoptechs are superior. They have a true floating disc design. I have not had any problems with vibration/uneven pad deposition. The component quality is superior. Everything fits as it should. There are no rattles.
The AP Racing kit did not feature floating discs, even though they were 2 piece. Vibration, presumably from uneven pad deposition and/or warping was a constant problem. The calipers required shims to fit, and they rattled. The pads would shift in place and bind when the car was driven in the rain.
The Wilwoods were useless. I felt they were a bit worse than the stock brakes, in fact.
I have no experience with Brembo, although their reputation precedes them. All I can say is, look for a kit that is matched (balanced) to your car. Stoptechs are just that. And they are less expensive than Brembo. The name isn't as sexy - so what?









Thank for your input, I had a ride in M this 1's Alcon BBK and wow do they stop! I also tried Jettafantic's Stop tech in the end I think the Alcons performed better but as you said earlier money is a big part in a person's decision


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## yosemitesamiam (Jan 31, 2002)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (ALEX_GTI_1.8T_2003)*

Does anyone know for sure if the StopTech 328x28mm kit for the MKIV Golf will fit under a 16" Montreal II wheel?
Or am I going to have to print that template, take a wheel off, and try it?
Anyone already done their homework here?
Thanks
Sam


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## SpinEcho (Oct 12, 2003)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (yosemitesamiam)*

I'm pretty sure that there are no 16 inch wheels that will fit over the Stoptech kit. Even the 17 inch choices are very limited.


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## M this 1! (May 17, 2000)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (SpinEcho)*

correct


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## yosemitesamiam (Jan 31, 2002)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (SpinEcho)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SpinEcho* »_I'm pretty sure that there are no 16 inch wheels that will fit over the Stoptech kit. Even the 17 inch choices are very limited.

Well that just saved me a TON of cash!!!!









So I guess I'm limited to stage II kits!!!! StopTech's are looking pretty nice...any other's worth considering?


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## SilberA4 (Jun 28, 2004)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (yosemitesamiam)*

I am looking at basically two ways to go.
1. ECS stage III
2. Alcon Motorsport 
This would be for the front. In addition to the calipers and rotors, i am looking into part #'s to swap in an S4 master cylinder, lanes, etc. (Bentley is in the mail) , so even if I don't go all out for the 6 pot versions for the front (Stage IV-Cayenne 6 pot, or Alcon 6 pot Motorsport) I believe I will have a better brake/pedal feel even with the 993tt and or the TrackSport(each of these are 4 pot).
I really have a hard time trying to decide which of these is the better.
I lean to the Alcon because of all of the information and talking i have done with them. Champion racing would not use anything inferior. Everything has its pluses and minuses, for all i have heard the Alcon kits seem to have a very good, if not great, QC (quality control), balance, etc. They seem to have done their homework and have sized the pistons, pads, rotors, etc, for the Quattro. 
I don't know if anyone else has any information that I don't have, but send it if available. I guess what I am searching for is testomonials from actual use (track and street) and endorsements that reflect all i have been reading.


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## EvilVento2.oT (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (SpinEcho)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SpinEcho* »_
The Wilwoods were useless. I felt they were a bit worse than the stock brakes, in fact.


wow i got about 38-40% betterbraking after 4 hard stops in my heavy nk3 jetta(60-0) ? what pads were you using? that would make a big differance? I have had willwoods on mk2's mk3's and one mk1 and the results have been nothing short of awesome . however with any brake upgrade what pads you choose makes a good deal


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## SpinEcho (Oct 12, 2003)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (EvilVento2.oT)*

I agree with one part of your comments: the pads make a big difference. But more aggressive pads on the OEM brakes will improve repeated or high speed braking just as they will with a brake upgrade kit! And ultimately the most important factor at legal speeds these days is the tire.
The Wilwood Dynalite kit I had used OEM size rotors. If I recall correctly (it's been a long time) the pads were Polymatrix D. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that may have been different from OEM was the pedal feel. Because the Dynalite calipers had 4 (smaller) pistons and were fixed instead of floating, pedal feel and pressure were different.
As for fade resistance and high speed braking capability compared to OEM, they were a total waste of money. A pad switch with OEM brakes would have accomplished far more for a lot less money.
Out of curiosity, how are you able to be so precise in your measurement of "better braking" (38-40%)? Are you using a G-Tech or similar device? And what is your definition of better braking in this instance?


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## machschnelGTI (Jun 28, 2004)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (SpinEcho)*

I've been working on StopTech but they won't sell to me because I am in "internet based company" I just picked up AP Racing as a supplier and I have the MK4 jetta gti kit w/ 13" rotors and 4 piston calipers for 10% off the retail price. Email me for details. [email protected]


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## EvilVento2.oT (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (SpinEcho)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SpinEcho* »_
Out of curiosity, how are you able to be so precise in your measurement of "better braking" (38-40%)? Are you using a G-Tech or similar device? And what is your definition of better braking in this instance?


set up cone measure 50ft 100ft 110ft 120ft 130 ft (and so on to 200 ft.
take stock jetta go to 60 mph at first cone hit brakes!( repete 3x)
do the same on any brake upgrade . then average stock times(or ft) vs upgrade time or ft. (dose this make any sense?)


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## SpinEcho (Oct 12, 2003)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (EvilVento2.oT)*

You say you brake at the first cone, but how do you know you are hitting the brakes at exactly the same spot each time? At 60 mph, you are travelling at 88 feet per second - even if you are off by a tenth of a second from one stop to another you are introducing a sizeable error into your measurements.


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## Krazee (Jan 26, 2003)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (SpinEcho)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SpinEcho* »_You say you brake at the first cone, but how do you know you are hitting the brakes at exactly the same spot each time? At 60 mph, you are travelling at 88 feet per second - even if you are off by a tenth of a second from one stop to another you are introducing a sizeable error into your measurements.

I see what you are saying, but then the same can apply to car magazines, no?
That said, I do agree with Spin in theory, since I have not driven a car equipped with the Dynalite calipers. While the do have 4 pistons, they are smaller and the surface area compared to stock (using the Corrado 11" for comparision sake) is more or less the same. Since the same amount of fluid is going into the caliper, as this is controlled by the size of the Master cylinder, I dont see how clamping force can be increased.
The only advantage I do see can be described with the following example.
take an eraser and place it on a desk. Use one finger and push down while pushing forward. The back or the eraser (part opposite of the direction you are pushing) will come up. Now put 2 fingers on the eraser and repeat. The back end doesnt come up. What this translates to is with a single piston caliper, the pressure distribution can become un-even under hard braking, which is why many people shave down that "back end" of thier pads when using stock calipers in autocross sessions. Since the Wilwoods use 4 pistons, for this reason I can see them being better on the track simply from a fade resistance point of view.


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## SpinEcho (Oct 12, 2003)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (KrazeeKorrado13)*

I love these threads http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif - they are so much more useful and enjoyable than the latest "what size is your exhaust tip" poll.

_Quote, originally posted by *KrazeeKorrado13* »_I see what you are saying, but then the same can apply to car magazines, no?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the reputable car magazines use sophisticated electronic equipment to obtain their performance figures, rather than 'eyeballing it' with cones.
As for the Wilwoods being better from a fade resistance point of view, I would think that would depend more on the pad compound and pad surface area than the actual caliper design.


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## Krazee (Jan 26, 2003)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (SpinEcho)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SpinEcho* »_Correct me if I'm wrong, but the reputable car magazines use sophisticated electronic equipment to obtain their performance figures, rather than 'eyeballing it' with cones.

Yes, agreed, but with braking tests, it still boils down to the driver. The car itself does not stop via electronic command, the drivers still have to hit the pedal. Granted, this may be done after someone calls "now", but timing wont always be exactly the same.
Everything is subjective I suppose.
But yes, I find this post great. Lots of good info and Im learning as I go along as well.
Of note, 3 weeks until my brake kit is done







but then another 3 months to get my Volk wheels


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## EvilVento2.oT (Dec 1, 2003)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (SpinEcho)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SpinEcho* »_You say you brake at the first cone, but how do you know you are hitting the brakes at exactly the same spot each time? At 60 mph, you are travelling at 88 feet per second - even if you are off by a tenth of a second from one stop to another you are introducing a sizeable error into your measurements.

thats why i usaly take the avg of 3 times


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## ABTMuDa (Mar 16, 2001)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (SpinEcho)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SpinEcho* »_Have you done a search? This topic has been debated in many posts over the last five or six months. Here's my experiences (again):
I now run Stoptechs on my Corrado. I had a 330 mm AP Racing kit before, and Wilwood Dynalites with stock rotors before that.
The Stoptechs are superior. They have a true floating disc design. I have not had any problems with vibration/uneven pad deposition. The component quality is superior. Everything fits as it should. There are no rattles.
The AP Racing kit did not feature floating discs, even though they were 2 piece. Vibration, presumably from uneven pad deposition and/or warping was a constant problem. The calipers required shims to fit, and they rattled. The pads would shift in place and bind when the car was driven in the rain.
The Wilwoods were useless. I felt they were a bit worse than the stock brakes, in fact.
I have no experience with Brembo, although their reputation precedes them. All I can say is, look for a kit that is matched (balanced) to your car. Stoptechs are just that. And they are less expensive than Brembo. The name isn't as sexy - so what?









I agree with this 100%. I was in the same boat, and guess what? I have stoptechs now.


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## ALEX_GTI_1.8T_2003 (Mar 28, 2003)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (ABTMuDa)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABTMuDa* »_
I agree with this 100%. I was in the same boat, and guess what? I have stoptechs now.









Well I have acess to test driving them and i never really had the chance to get them up to operating temperature so I need to say as of now that the Alcons have impressed me most of all.
By the way a customer just had 15 / 8 piston Brembo race calipers up front and 12 inch 4 piston in the rear on a E46 M3. WOW







after We inbeded them they would stop like nothing else I've ever been in even better the a 360 Modena


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## RonsR32 (Jan 15, 2004)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (ALEX_GTI_1.8T_2003)*

Just so you guys know I was at Limerock this past weekend for the American Lemans series and watched them take apart the cars and saw nothing but 90% AP racing calipers. Believe it or not


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## ALEX_GTI_1.8T_2003 (Mar 28, 2003)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (RonsR32)*

As they say AP Racing is really out there in Motorsports, but since Brembo bought AP Racing there is now even more R&D that goes into their BBK.
My question is if the AP Racing kit that http://www.performance-cafe.co...f173b sells if they are DOT approved and if they have dust shelids around the pistons in the caliper.


_Modified by ALEX_GTI_1.8T_2003 at 10:40 PM 7-8-2004_


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## Krazee (Jan 26, 2003)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (ALEX_GTI_1.8T_2003)*

Regarding dust shields....the Wilwood Superlite kit I am getting (4piston/12" all around) does not have dust shields, and adding them would add another $500 to an already hefty investment.
According to the customer service rep of the company I am dealing with, the stainless steel pistons used will last quite a long time without needing a rebuild. I emphasized that I am on the east coast and have to deal with snow and road salt and he said he used to/still does live on the east coast as well and knows what I am talking about.
He also mentioned that they have yet to have a complaint about thier systems. If I get 5-7 years per rebuild, Im happy. Granted, I prolly wouldnt need to rebuild ever with Stoptech or AP, but unfortunately, this is one of the trade-offs with wanting a 12" kit as opposed to 13".


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (KrazeeKorrado13)*

Proper braking distance testing technique from http://www.zeckhausen.com/testing_brakes.htm
All you need is a radar speed detector with laser distance meter/digital acquisition and a laptop computer.


_Quote »_
... head straight for the radar station at about 64 mph. When he reached the last of three cones, he would apply the brakes fully, allowing ABS to activate. The laptop started collecting data before the stop was initiated and kept on collecting data after the car was stopped. Steve used the mouse to "lasso" the data on the graph from 60mph to 0mph and discard the rest. This left us with a plotted graph that showed how the car performed during the 60mph to 0 portion of the stop. It's pretty much a straight line. This technique is more accurate than relying on the driver to try to go exactly 60 mph and then stomp the brakes. It also eliminates the differences between runs where the driver may hit the brakes more quickly on one run than another. Many magazines test brakes this way, although some use the less accurate and less repeatable method of relying on the driver to gauge when he's going 60 mph. It's important, when comparing tests to know how the data was collected.



Edit: you need a radar speed detector, not just a radar detector











_Modified by phatvw at 6:25 PM 7-8-2004_


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## reflexgti (Dec 19, 2000)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (ALEX_GTI_1.8T_2003)*

The AP Racing caliper that's used does have dust shields around the pistons. I don't know if they're DOT approved though.
Steve

_Quote, originally posted by *ALEX_GTI_1.8T_2003* »_As they say AP Racing is really out there in Motorsports, but since Brembo bought AP Racing there is now even more R&D that goes into their BBK.
My question is if the AP Racing kit that http://www.performance-cafe.co...f173b sells if they are DOT approved and if they have dust shelids around the pistons in the caliper.

_Modified by ALEX_GTI_1.8T_2003 at 10:40 PM 7-8-2004_


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## SpinEcho (Oct 12, 2003)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (phatvw)*


_Quote, originally posted by *phatvw* »_All you need is a radar detector with laser distance meter/digital acquisition and a laptop computer.

Read it again. You need a radar gun, not a radar detector. Not so simple.


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: Brembo vs Stoptech vs AP racing BBK (SpinEcho)*


_Quote, originally posted by *SpinEcho* »_
Read it again. You need a radar gun, not a radar detector. Not so simple.

Yeah I meant a radar speed detector. You can buy them on Amazon.com or ebay for about $150. Same price as a regular radar detector


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