# HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...now mushy! Please help!



## muttwagon (Sep 21, 2000)

today we installed new rotors, pads, and ss lines. to finish the job we flushed the system with ATE super blue. the rotors and pads and lines are fine, but brakes are still mushy. 
we did everything right, except when flushing the fluid we flushed it dry, then filled with blue, and bled each line until solid blue came out. we did each line once, and then did each line one more time. however, its still mushy.
is there an air bubble in there if theres solid blue coming out all lines after the second bleed? please help! im waking up at 7:45am tomorrow to do this before i need to be at church at 10:45am to watch my friend do a play.
pic of my car for views:


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## muttwagon (Sep 21, 2000)

*Re: HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...now mushy! Please help! (sk8vet)*

oh yea, we went thru an entire can of super blue (1 liter of cola! for those super trooper fans) and im at the point im at now. ive got a second liter, but am i gonna have to bleed each line one more time all the way thru??
how can there be air in the system if im getting solid blue at each end the second time around?


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## muttwagon (Sep 21, 2000)

*Re: HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...now mushy! Please help! (sk8vet)*

i read you need to take the calipers off and turn them upside down to bleed them...is this true??


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## EBG 1.8T (Jul 1, 2001)

*Re: HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...now mushy! Please help! (sk8vet)*

if you let the fluid resevior go dry then there is a good chance you have air in the ABS controller. When bleeding the lines it is very important to not let the resevior get to low.. If that happens air gets in the ABS controller and you could have a major problem. I do not know how to bleed the abs controller. I think their might be a procedure in the bently though. Good luck.


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## BikeBoy24 (Jun 10, 2001)

*Re: HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...now ... (EBG 1.8T)*

I think you can use a VAG to cycle the abs pump. Or go to an empty parking lot, and try to lock up the brakes a few times, and then re-bleed.


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## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

I also heard that you can cycle the ABS pump via VagCom. Don't know if it will bleed it or not.


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## muttwagon (Sep 21, 2000)

*Re: (hungalicious)*

we tried bleeding them again today and no luck. is it bad to try bleeding them with the car started?


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## Golfimus Prime (Feb 26, 2002)

*Re: (sk8vet)*

When you bleed the brakes did you press the brake pedal all the way to the floor?
If you did, there is a very good chance that the seals in the master brake cylinder are damaged and keeping a tight seal is no longer happening. This could have happened because your brake pedal has never seen that travel in normal braking and the MC could have been pushed into a contaminated area.


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## EBG 1.8T (Jul 1, 2001)

*Re: (sk8vet)*

i'd put $20 on the fact that you have air in the ABS controller. You might want to call around and ask some of the local shops, mabe you can find someone that has experience with getting air out of the ABS controller.


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## mash169 (Nov 13, 2001)

*Re: (EBG 1.8T)*

i have the same problem man my brakes are mushy..some1 help us out please !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## hungalicious (Aug 29, 2002)

Another thing to note, bad brake booster? A friend of mine with a 2003 GTI had the brake booster go bad. The car would brake but the brake was very mushy. This after the dealer warrantied the rotors and changed out the pads.


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## mash169 (Nov 13, 2001)

*Re: (hungalicious)*

do any check engine lights come how do we know for shure? how much do these parts cost? are they easy to change?


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## kahulaVR6 (Jan 11, 2003)

*Re: (mash169)*

THANK GOD I"M NOT ALONE!!!! I have the same problem, need help, i've had them bled and I'm getting them rebled, i have Performance cafe ss lines & ECS tuning rotors...is it something to do w/ the lines?
A friend said that I may need to look into Audi TT brake master cylinder? Just a thought
Bump http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by kahulaVR6 at 5:36 PM 4-12-2004_


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## muttwagon (Sep 21, 2000)

*Re: (kahulaVR6)*

a friend of mine is a vw tech (but a new one) and asked one of the more experienced guys and they said the ABS modual needs to be reset with the VAG. its going in tomorrow morning for that and a few other things, ill letcha know what happens.


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## NYCMK3Jetta (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: (sk8vet)*

On my previous car.... I had to bleed the lines AT the Master cylinder! I was getting fluid at the calipers but I got air when I bled the Master cylinder lines. It fixed the problem.
Hey on a side note... I bled my brakes without having the vacuum line from booster to the manifold attached







will that cause a problem?  cause my brakes still suck.. car is not road safe to drive yet. Any help you all can provide will be greatly appreciated.

Do I need to re-bleed the lines all over again due to vacuum actuator not connected to booster?


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## muttwagon (Sep 21, 2000)

*Re: (NYCMK3Jetta)*

well, i just got back from my dealer and paid $70 for the tech to professionally bleed my brakes with NO improvement







he says "the brakes work well enough to pass inspection"...however i have to lay the pedal on the floor to do a hard stop. he said theres nothing wrong with my brake system at all. ABS did not need to be reset, he saw no codes coming from the master cylinder, but yet theyre still mushy!
can the super blue be thicker than OEM? could that be the problem? should i go back to OEM fluid? anyone?















edit: also, i bled my brakes with my parking brake ON. could that do anything bad??


_Modified by sk8vet at 3:36 PM 4-13-2004_


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## The Hater (Jun 23, 2003)

*Re: (sk8vet)*

it's been my experience that half the time...techs dont know anything. 
i gotta see if i get ahold of RossTech and see if they know anything about cycling the abs pump..my brother has just gotten used to the feeling of mushy brakes..haha.
Lou


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## kahulaVR6 (Jan 11, 2003)

*Re: (sk8vet)*

went w/ the OEM DOT 4 stuff and had my brakes and ABS flushed to the tune of 160 dollars. They feel marginally better, more initial bite than before, worth it? Dunno. I asked the techs @ my dealership, all of them, and no one thought that the electronics had to be reprogrammed. I'm still wondering if the master cylinder has to be changed...


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## NYCMK3Jetta (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: (kahulaVR6)*

seems that there are not too many guru's on VW brakes to help us out


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## EBG 1.8T (Jul 1, 2001)

*Re: (NYCMK3Jetta)*

it shouldn;t have anything to do with the superblue. I am running superblue and just upgraded my brakes a month ago and everything is great. I have a feeling that the tech did not understand what is really wrong. If the resivoir goes dry air gets in the master cylinder/ABS controller and there is a seperate process for preparing/getting air out if there. If i knew more i woudl tell you, but call around and find a different tech.


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## BikeBoy24 (Jun 10, 2001)

*Re: (EBG 1.8T)*

Next time it rains, go to an empty parking lot and try to lock up the brakes. That should cycle the ABS pump. Try bleeding again, and see what happens.


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## muttwagon (Sep 21, 2000)

*Re: (EBG 1.8T)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EBG 1.8T* »_it shouldn;t have anything to do with the superblue. I am running superblue and just upgraded my brakes a month ago and everything is great. I have a feeling that the tech did not understand what is really wrong. If the resivoir goes dry air gets in the master cylinder/ABS controller and there is a seperate process for preparing/getting air out if there. If i knew more i woudl tell you, but call around and find a different tech. 

the tech said he did not see any codes when he ran the 1551 so therefor there shouldnt be air in the ABS controller. he said the 1551 would be able to detect air and it didnt. where is this ABS controller anyway in relation to the MC and fluid reservior?
i emailed ECS and adam said my MC doesnt need to be upgraded to handle the ss lines and super blue. his only guess is theres air in the system, but where else could it be?


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## muttwagon (Sep 21, 2000)

*Re: HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...now mushy! Please help! (sk8vet)*

UPDATE:
i took the advice and while it rained wednesday night, at every stoplight and stopsign on the way home i engine braked and braked at the same time and locked up the wheels to engage the ABS. after 5-7 times the pedal felt significantly better! its firmER, but not as firm as it could be. 
now my question is, say there was air in the ABS, is it now pushed into the lines or is there some sort of blow off valve (yes i know its a closed system, but i just wanna make sure)? should i rebleed this weekend to try to get the air out?
and just to make sure im doing this right, with the car off, i have someone pump pump pump the brake to build pressure, then i bleed and close off. they do it again and i bleed again.


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## The Hater (Jun 23, 2003)

*Re: HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...now mushy! Please help! (sk8vet)*

there is no blow off...you have to rebleed the lines. 
pump pump pump...hold pedal...crack open bleeders...let air out...close bleeders...pedal will come back up...pump pump pump. 
start from the caliper furthest away from the master cylinder and work your way closer to it. (back passenger, back driver, front passenger, front driver)


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## mash169 (Nov 13, 2001)

*Re: HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...now ... (The Hater)*

whats going ....any new news im about to take my car to the stealership


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## muttwagon (Sep 21, 2000)

*Re: HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...now ... (mash169)*

well, after i locked up my brakes in the rain and im GUESSING cycled the air out of the ABS controller, the pedal got much more firmer. i ended up bleeding my brakes one more time this weekend and couldnt see any air come out, but at least i did it and know its done. the brakes dont feel any different from before i bled them, so i guess thats as good as it gets.
on another note, i talked to a good friend whos got the same set up. his view was that your brakes will never have the original "bite" that it did from the factory, that the slight mush (SLIGHT mush) is normal, but that the brakes will be working more efficiently. i dunno how much truth is in it, but im done messing with them. theyre good enough for me.
if you go to the dealer, make sure they cycle your ABS pump. my tech just looked for errors and didnt see any so he didnt cycle it (hence i had to do it on my own).


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## EBG 1.8T (Jul 1, 2001)

*Re: HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...now ... (sk8vet)*

my brakes don;t have any mush, not sure what he is thinking when he said that.


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## Geordie (Jun 22, 2001)

*Re: HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...now ... (EBG 1.8T)*

To get a feel for what's in the lines you need to see if the pedal is hard without the engine running, when there is vacuum the servo will allow the pedal to sink a certain amount. 
If the master cylinder were damaged you could detect this by standing on the brakes with the car stationary and the engine running. If you don't apply any more force then the pedal should stay where it is. If the master cylinder has gone, or there are any slave cylinder leaks, then the pedal will slowly sink to the floor.
There are pressure flushing devices that might help, if a bubble has got in somewhere that it isn't being blown out of.
It is absolutely essential that the bleed nipples are at the top of the caliper, otherwise you are trying to blow the air down through fluid and that's not going to happen.
Stainless hoses should harden the pedal, the idea is that the mesh stops the rubber from expanding and thus wasting and limiting pressure.
Viscosity of the fluid has no particular effect, first of all they are all comparitively thin and second the brake lines run at significan pressure, you could probably blow engine oil through them. The brake fluid should only make a difference at high temperatures where the lower quality fluids will start to vaporize giving you a soft pedal.


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...now ... (Geordie)*

1) VAG or VAGCOM won't tell you that there is air in the lines. 
2) If the pedal is mushy after you do a brake or line swap, it's ALWAYS air in the line(unless you swapped up to monster brakes and calipers), regardless if you have a steady stream of fluid coming out. Air somehow gets trapped in the system. 
3) A pressure bleeder is your best friend. We use a pressure bleeder on all customer cars and get a firm pedal each and every time.
-Mike P


_Modified by tyrolkid at 10:11 AM 4-21-2004_


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## oldpoopie (Jul 24, 2001)

*Re: HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...now ... (tyrolkid)*

Vag-Com ABS bleed procedure:
*
Special tools and equipment
V.A.G 1869 Brake filling and bleeder unit
Function 04 "Initiate basic settings" performs several functions:
Display group 001 is required to bleed the hydraulic system Page 01-91
Note:
The basic setting to bleed the hydraulic unit is only required when one chamber of the brake fluid reservoir is completely empty.
The basic setting is used to bleed the hydraulic unit only. The brake system must be bleed separately.
Repair Manual, Brake System, Repair Group 47

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01-92

Display group number 01: Bleeding hydraulic unit.
Note:
All functions which could previously be performed with V.A.G 1551 can also be performed with the tester VAS 5051.
- Connect brake filling and bleeder unit V.A.G 1869.
- Connect V.A.G 1551 Scan Tool and select (address word 03) "Brake electronics" with ignition switched on; Page 01-23
Rapid data transfer HELP
Select function XX
Indicated on display
- Press keys 0 and 4. (The function "Initiating basic setting" is selected with 04).
Rapid data transfer Q
04 - Basic setting
Indicated on display
- Confirm entry with key Q.

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01-93

Basic setting HELP
Enter display group number XXX
Indicated on display:
- Press keys 0, 0 and 1
- Confirm entry with key Q.
System in basic setting 1
Depress pedal and hold...
Indicated on display:
- Operate pedal with substantial foot pressure and hold.
Pedal moves down
Hydraulic pump runs
Pedal comes back
System in basic setting 1
Rel. pedal; FR/FL bleed screw OPEN <3>
Indicated on display
- Press key 3 on VAG 1551 or arrow up key on VAS 5051.
System in basic setting 2
Please wait...(10 secs.)
Indicated on display
Hydraulic pump runs
System in basic setting 2
Depr. pedal 10X; bleed screw CLOSED <3>
Indicated on display
- Press key 3 on VAG 1551 or arrow up key on VAS 5051.

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01-94

System in basic setting 3
Depress pedal and hold...
Indicated on display
- Operate pedal with substantial foot pressure and hold.
Pedal moves down
Hydraulic pump runs
Pedal comes back
System in basic setting 3
Rel. pedal; FR/FL bleed screw OPEN <3>
Indicated on display
- Press key 3 on VAG 1551 or arrow up key on VAS 5051.
System in basic setting 4
Please wait...(10 secs.)
Indicated on display
Hydraulic pump runs
System in basic setting 4
Depr. pedal 10X; bleed screw CLOSED <3>
Indicated on display
- Press key 3 on VAG 1551 or arrow up key on VAS 5051.

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01-95

System in basic setting 5
Depress pedal and hold...
Indicated on display
- Operate pedal with substantial foot pressure and hold.
Pedal moves down
Hydraulic pump runs
Pedal comes back
System in basic setting 5
Rel. pedal; FR/FL bleed screw OPEN <3>
Indicated on display
- Press key 3 on VAG 1551 or arrow up key on VAS 5051.
System in basic setting 6
Please wait...(10 secs.)
Indicated on display
Hydraulic pump runs
System in basic setting 6
Depr. pedal 10X; bleed screw CLOSED <3>
Indicated on display
- Press key 3 on VAG 1551 or arrow up key on VAS 5051.

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01-96

System in basic setting 7
Depress pedal and hold...
Indicated on display
- Operate pedal with substantial foot pressure and hold.
Pedal moves down
Hydraulic pump runs
Pedal comes back
System in basic setting 7
Rel. pedal; FR/FL bleed screw OPEN <3>
Indicated on display
- Press key 3 on VAG 1551 or arrow up key on VAS 5051.
System in basic setting 8
Please wait...(10 secs.)
Indicated on display
Hydraulic pump runs
System in basic setting 8
Depr. pedal 10X; bleed screw CLOSED <3>
Indicated on display
- Press key 3 on VAG 1551 or arrow up key on VAS 5051.

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01-97

System in basic setting 9
Depress pedal and hold...
Indicated on display
- Operate pedal with substantial foot pressure and hold.
Pedal moves down
Hydraulic pump runs
Pedal comes back
System in basic setting 9
Rel. pedal; FR/FL bleed screw OPEN <3>
Indicated on display
- Press key 3 on VAG 1551 or arrow up key on VAS 5051.
System in basic setting 10
Please wait...(10 secs.)
Indicated on display
Hydraulic pump runs
System in basic setting 10
Depr. pedal 10X; bleed screw CLOSED <3>
Indicated on display
- Press key 3 on VAG 1551 or arrow up key on VAS 5051.

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01-98

System in basic setting 11
Depress pedal and hold...
Indicated on display
- Operate pedal with substantial foot pressure and hold.
Pedal moves down
Hydraulic pump runs
Pedal comes back
System in basic setting 11
Rel. pedal; FR/FL bleed screw OPEN <3>
Indicated on display
- Press key 3 on VAG 1551 or arrow up key on VAS 5051.
System in basic setting 12
Please wait...(10 secs.)
Indicated on display
Hydraulic pump runs
System in basic setting 12
Depr. pedal 10X; bleed screw CLOSED <3>
Indicated on display
- Press key 3 on VAG 1551 or arrow up key on VAS 5051.

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01-99

System in basic setting 13
Depress pedal and hold...
Indicated on display
- Operate pedal with substantial foot pressure and hold.
Pedal moves down
Hydraulic pump runs
System in basic setting 13
Rel. pedal; FR/FL bleed screw OPEN <3>
Indicated on display
- Press key 3 on VAG 1551 or arrow up key on VAS 5051.
System in basic setting 14
Please wait...(10 secs.)
Indicated on display
Hydraulic pump runs
System in basic setting 14
Depr. pedal 10X; bleed screw CLOSED <3>
Indicated on display
- Press key 3 on VAG 1551 or arrow up key on VAS 5051.

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01-100

System in basic setting 15
Depress pedal and hold...
Indicated on display
- Operate pedal with substantial foot pressure and hold.
Pedal moves down
Hydraulic pump runs
Pedal comes back
System in basic setting 15
Rel. pedal; FR/FL bleed screw OPEN <3>
Indicated on display
- Press key 3 on VAG 1551 or arrow up key on VAS 5051.
System in basic setting 16
Please wait...(10 secs.)
Indicated on display
Hydraulic pump runs
System in basic setting 16
Depr. pedal 10X; bleed screw CLOSED <3>
Indicated on display
- Press key 3 on VAG 1551 or arrow up key on VAS 5051.

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01-101

System in basic setting 17
Partial bleeding ended
Indicated on display
- Press key.
Rapid data transfer HELP
Select function XX
Indicated on display
- Press keys -0- and -6- to end output.
Rapid data transfer Q
06 - End output
Indicated on display
- Confirm entry with Q key.
Rapid data transfer Help
Enter address word XX
Indicated on display
- Press C key.
- Switch ignition off.
- Disconnect connections to V.A.G 1551 Scan Tool.
- Bleed brake system.
The basic setting is used to bleed the hydraulic unit only. The brake system must be bleed separately.
Repair Manual, Brake System, Repair Group 47; Bleeding brake system, vehicles with and without ABS
*


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## snarbles (Aug 19, 2002)

*Re: HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...now ... (oldpoopie)*

Now can we translate that to VAG-COM language, cuz it looks like that is just for a VAG 1869 tool...just seems a bit confusing.


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## PhOO (May 23, 2000)

*Re: HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...now mushy! Please help! (sk8vet)*

this needs to go in the FAQ's.. i did the same thing with my car and i still have a mushy pedal. im going to try cycling the ABS pump with VAG COM to get any air out of the ABS system


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## SlowMotion (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...now mushy! Please help! (PhOO)*

try to get a hold of russell bleed screw. so you don't have to open and close them so many times while bleeding the brakes.
also you can't have the car e-brakes engage during the process.
you need to bleed the caliper by putting them on their side and true the bleeder valve run fluid until fluid come out the lines.
hth.


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## Shikaroka (Dec 12, 2002)

*Re: HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...n ... (hotshotz16v)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hotshotz16v* »_also you can't have the car e-brakes engage during the process.


I was about to say that.
Have you found the problem yet?
You shouldn't have the e-brake on while bleeding the brakes. It keeps the rear pistons from going in and out like they should. Therefore, you are really not bleeding the rear brakes much, since the pistons are not moving.
Try it again with the e-brake off. Or try a pressure bleeder, like Motive.
I am in the middle of a complete brake overhaul and upgrade on my Corrado. I have built my own pressure bleeder, so I'll see how that goes this weekend.


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## ROCKnRLR (Oct 30, 2000)

*Re: HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...now mushy! Please help! (sk8vet)*

I had mushy brakes, so I bleed/purged the lines. The pedal feel remained the same after flushing/bleeding, I used Valvoline fluid. We, a friend helped my out, used a Power Bleeder. I assumed that was the way the pedal felt and I had grown paranoid.
A few months later I replaced front and rear rotors and pads. I felt that the car didnt brake like it should with slotted rotors and mintex red box pads. So, I flushed/purged the system again, this time using VW fluid. Still, same pedal feel. I spoke to a VW tech and told me "Try a friend's car with the same setup". Best I could find was a friend with slotted brakes (not TT upgrade) and mintex black box, adn damn, his pedal feel was much stiffer and it braked better.
So, I reported back to my VW tech friend and he offered to hook em up with a new MC since that seemed to be the culprit. He installed the MC, then he flushed and bleed the system using some vacuum device that sucked the old fluid and then pumped new fluid (non VW DOT 4). After he finished, there was NO pedal feel, so we did an old fashioned bleed job. Pedal feel returned but it was as mushy as always. The MC wasnt the culprit.
I took the car to a VW/Audi shop and the main guy said "It *could* be your booster or your ABS pump". Since they had an ABS pump (used), he decided to try that since it was easier to replace than the booster anyway. He did it by the book, he did the ABS cycle thing to flush the system. Nada, same POS pedal feel! He told me to go drive in a friend's 12v VR6.
So, I did that that same night. I could not find a 12V vR6 Jetta among the guys in our local group but I found a Jetta wagon. His were not as mushy but they were not as firm as other 1.8ts I had tried until then. i reported back and he said "That's the nature of the beast then. You might be able to get some feeling back by getting SS lines."
So, I am gonna try that next. SS lines are its way from ECS. I found this thread by looking up for a SS lines how-to. I hope I can get a bit of the pedal feel back from the SS lines.


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## PhOO (May 23, 2000)

*Re: HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...now ... (ROCKnRLR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ROCKnRLR* »_
So, I am gonna try that next. SS lines are its way from ECS. I found this thread by looking up for a SS lines how-to. I hope I can get a bit of the pedal feel back from the SS lines.

MKIV cars come with braided lines.. i had the same problem as you... using vag com to run the ABS pump when bleeding fixed the problem..


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## vego99 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...now ... (PhOO)*

Im am stumped!!! I have bled brakes on so many cars. I switched out to ss brake lines on my 03 gti and now the damn pedal is mushy. Ive tried to bleed the system 4 times now..
Does anyone know it a vag com will allow you to bleed the abs controller? If so any idea of the process?
Thanks 
Erik


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## PhOO (May 23, 2000)

*Re: HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...now ... (vego99)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vego99* »_
Does anyone know it a vag com will allow you to bleed the abs controller? If so any idea of the process?
Thanks 
Erik

yes.. go into the brake controller... then run test outputs.. this will run the abs pump. run once for each caliper.. then bleed the brakes like normal.. this fixed the problem with my car


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## vego99 (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...now ... (PhOO)*

thanks ill give that a shot.. i just need to find someone with a vag com in the west chester area


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## ROCKnRLR (Oct 30, 2000)

*Re: HELP: When installing ss lines and flushing, we let it go dry...now ... (PhOO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PhOO* »_MKIV cars come with braided lines.. i had the same problem as you... using vag com to run the ABS pump when bleeding fixed the problem..

Maybe yours, mine didnt have a braided line.


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