# Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam mod info*

(4th preface) 9/1/08
Why?
stock intake has 195 duration and .354" lift
euro cam has 207 duration and .378" lift 
exhaust cam has 215 duration and .402" lift
the exhaust cam phased correctly should yeild a bigger intake charge than the euro cam, if the intake system and exhaust flows enough to not cause a restriction.
this will make a cams set pretty close to the TT street set without spending $380

(3rd preface)5/19/08
*read this and look at the pics, these are pics @ 112*lsa not 110* lsa*
this quote of myself (I like quoting myself







) pretty much sums up everything 
quote:
because I'm lazy and need to go out and swap my ignition distributor, I'm pasting this pm re-hash for all








weeblebiker (2:17 AM 6-7-2007): hehe
k, first, what's your red line?
second, have you looked at the pics and understand how I'm orienting and referencing the cams?
remeber looking at the pics, the cams are spinning counterclockwise advance is counterclockwise, retard is clockwise
rotating the gear 3.6*counter clockwise (which is rotating the cam clockwise or retarding) puts the cam in phase with the intake cam. the stock cam set has a lobe separation of 107* I origenally was shooting for a lobe separation of 112* 3.6* +(112-107)= 8.6* counterclockwise
or 14.4* (tooth seperation angle) - 8.6*= 5.8* clockwise and found this pulled up to my redline 7500 rev limit. 
*on further research, I found most cam sets of this duration put the lobe separation @ 110**
*rotating the cam gear 3.6*+3*= 6.6* counterclockwise. the diameter is 34mm at the gear; 0.2967mm=1* which is shaving 2mm or 1/2 off the key.* this should be pretty damn near best for street and stock rev limit, (but will increase overlap and may effect emissions). for you, cutting a new keyway, all you need to do is take this angle offset and add multiples of 14.4* to put the keyway where you want.
and yes decking it will slightly retard the timing, might but not much. to be noticable
weeblebiker (2:20 AM 6-7-2007): *as for the new timing mark, set the cam on the counter with the lobes closest to the gear straight up, count 3 teeth up the bottom left and mark the tooth, just like the intake cam your looking at next to it, remeber the intake cam is the reference. when your done the lobe center on the new cam should be slightly clockwise of the intake lobe center*
(second preface)
5/31/07 here's pics
































(first preface)
don't read this. check 7 replies down for the simple version








Well ok read this for a brief history of the thoughts on this mod
check the links also, 
please exuse some of the posts, I was usually writing these in the middle of the night when I was up with my then few week old son
enjoy
(origenal first post beginning)
Bear with me here,
I'm thinking the old 6* or 7.2* retarded legend was in crank degrees, not cam degrees which corisponds quit nicely to the 3.6* cam degree advance to put the exhaust cam mod in phase with the stock intake.
as discussed in the thread
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1801079 
the exhaust cam has a larger duration 215* verses 195 for the stock cam(I know what that really means now ). 180* is the piston moving from tdc to btc or half a stroke. the mod cam in the stock phase position would make the intake valves open a little sooner in the exhaust stroke which isn't really good. but retard the cam and too much and it leaves the valves open longer during the compression stroke which isn't really good either. 
I learned a lot from this graph this morning
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2506488
Thanks jetta2dr!
according to the TT site
http://techtonicstuning.com/camsspecs.asp
the stock phase angle is 107*
for a refresher of the only seemingly legit info on this mod checky here
http://scirocco16v.com/tech/exhaust_cam.htm
which says to put the mod cam at 106* phase angle, which is crank 1* retarded verses stock, or .5 cam degrees

SO,
the exhaust cam mod advanced 3.6 cam degrees or 7.2 crank degrees would have a phase angle of 107and be in the same position as the stock cam. (this looks right by my eyeball)
to decrease the valve overlap to a reasonable amount and not have the intake valve open too long during compression stroke,phase angle of 106* has been suggested. you would move the cam 6 crank degrees, (sound familier?) or 3.1 cam degrees
since the cam gear has 14.4 degrees per tooth, somebody thought 6 crank degrees was cam degrees and was about *half a tooth *and lead back to 7.2* only as cam degrees (again a familier number from up above?) leading to the "half a tooth off thing everybody states", although entirely wrong.
so I think,
to get the cam mod entirely right,
I will advance the cam 3.1 cam degrees (as close as I can) by rotating the cam gear 3.1* counter clockwise. this also make 106* phase angle.
to "Install them with a 106 degree peak opening point on both symetrically", I'll advance both cams .5 crank degrees or .25 cam degrees with the timing gear. which makes sense cause you want the overlap centerd over TDC.
or 
does decking the head advance or retard timing?









discuss

_Modified by weeblebiker at 6:08 PM 3-19-2006_

_Modified by weeblebiker at 11:26 AM 3-22-2006_

_Modified by weeblebiker at 11:43 AM 11-7-2006_

_Modified by weeblebiker at 3:19 AM 6-1-2007_

_Modified by weeblebiker at 3:30 AM 6-1-2007_

_Modified by weeblebiker at 3:33 AM 6-1-2007_

_Modified by weeblebiker at 1:17 AM 8-11-2007_

_Modified by weeblebiker at 1:18 AM 8-11-2007_

_Modified by weeblebiker at 1:49 AM 5-20-2008_

_Modified by weeblebiker at 1:54 AM 5-20-2008_

_Modified by weeblebiker at 1:55 AM 5-20-2008_

_Modified by weeblebiker at 12:15 PM 9-1-2008_

_Modified by weeblebiker at 12:23 PM 9-1-2008_

_Modified by weeblebiker at 6:59 PM 9-16-2008_

_Modified by weeblebiker at 3:43 PM 1-17-2009_


_Modified by weeblebiker at 4:15 PM 1-17-2009_


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## Jetta2dr (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

To do the cams like the scirocco16v.com link says with the 106* LSA you need to move both cams since it says to set them up symetrically. There is also the lobe centerline which is where the peak opening occurs, in ATDC for intake and BTDC for exhaust. The LSA is the distance in degrees between each cam's centerline. Stock intake cam has a centerline of 102* ATDC, stock exhaust cam is 112* BTDC, which gives a LSA of 107*. I find, from graphing different timing configurations, that setting the intake cam centerline at 112* ATDC and the exhaust cam stock the cam curves overlap almost exactly with the Techtonic's Street Cams, although with lightly less lift.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Jetta2dr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jetta2dr* »_To do the cams like the scirocco16v.com link says with the 106* LSA you need to move both cams since it says to set them up symetrically. There is also the lobe centerline which is where the peak opening occurs, in ATDC for intake and BTDC for exhaust. The LSA is the distance in degrees between each cam's centerline. Stock intake cam has a centerline of 102* ATDC, stock exhaust cam is 112* BTDC, which gives a LSA of 107*. I find, from graphing different timing configurations, that setting the intake cam centerline at 112* ATDC and the exhaust cam stock the cam curves overlap almost exactly with the Techtonic's Street Cams, although with lightly less lift.

you can advance/retard both cams by moving the timing gear on the exhaust cam.
maybe I meant lobe separation angle instead of phase angle. only been at this since 7 this morning








with that, do you see anything wrong with my analysis?
You throw in an interesting twist at the end. I take it you are talking about setting the modded exhaust cam as an intake at 112* ATDC. so you say retarding the the cam, turning the cam gear 1.4* clockwise from the drivers side. and rotating the whole thing 6 teeth. will give a lobe separation angle similar to TT's?


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## Freerevving (Sep 29, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

IIRC, the Scirocco16v.com thing says to retard the intake intercam timing slightly, and advance the cams a bunch


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Freerevving)*

how do you get that from the info?
and jetta2dr, now I'm at a quandry. 
time to re-read everything


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## Jetta2dr (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

I've reread and recalculated things lots, and I'm still kinda confused on all of it. But just recently I got a base for my dial indicator, so hopefully next weekend I can measure up the exhaust cam and figure it all out. But then I dont really know enough about cam theory to know where is good to set it. Thats why I was leaning twords a 112* centerline on it because the curves matche the TT street set which we know works. When in doubt, copy someone else!


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## Freerevving (Sep 29, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Freerevving)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Freerevving* »_IIRC, the Scirocco16v.com thing says to retard the intake intercam timing slightly, and advance the cams a bunch

oh yeah it doesn't say that at all


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Freerevving)*

nevermind, my first post was sleep deprived ramblings from staying up with the baby.
simple form:
the exhaust cam is 3.6* advanced from intake cam lobe center.(I trust the sourceand looks right by eyballing)
the lobe center is 5* advanced from where the exhaust cam should open to mimmick the TT cam set. (I trust this source and looks right by eyeballing also)
this is 8.6* advanced or 14.4*(tooth angle)-8.6* is 5.8* retarded (or rounded to 6*)








or 
the diameter is 34mm at the gear; 0.2967mm=1*
shave/ buy 1.7mm off set key and turn the gear clockwise relative to the cam and make your mark six teeth (not counting the tooth with the origenal mark and counting the final tooth you will mark







) clockwise from the origenal mark. (this looks right by eyballing also)






















by "eyeballing, I mean laying an unmodified exhaust cam, a stock intake, and a modified exhaust an a table with the lobes closest to the gear pointed (as close to) straight up next to each other.
gunna check out the lathes and dial indicators at work....


_Modified by weeblebiker at 11:55 AM 3-22-2006_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

so screw ya'll








just put the cams on a degree wheel and mill.centered the cam under the indicator on a bearing surface. set 0.0* to the center of the nearest tooth. moved the indicator over to the nearsest lobe. all angles referenced looking at the distributor side
stock intake: max lift is 0.6* +/- 0.1*counterclockwise from the tooth.
stock exhaust: max lift is 4.0* +/-0.1*counterclockwise from tooth.
maybe 3.6* is right
I did not verify if max lift is lobe center. but I did eyeball the gauge needle was on/near lobe center.
I didn't get a chance to get the opening and closing angle of the cams. maybe later this week. but I trust TT's #'s
hey, I got wife and kids to get home to!







(that too!)
actually I'll compare valve opening angle and 0.05mm and 0.1mm lift and 1mm to verify TT's #'s. relative to the same tooth. cause the closing doesn't matter as much, right?
oh by the way. my new job rocks!
_Modified by weeblebiker at 12:42 PM 3-23-2006_


_Modified by weeblebiker at 12:44 PM 3-23-2006_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

so the exhaust cam is 136* opening to close (68* to max lift)and 90* 1.0mm to 1.0mm (45* to max lift).
more to come
hey is someone willing to host a pick of my setp? (I got better things to do besides setting up a pic account)
btw all degrees are cam degrees, 360*= one revolution of the cam









it's 1mm lift, not 0.1mm lift. gotta read the gauge right










_Modified by weeblebiker at 3:33 PM 3-25-2006_


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## Jetta2dr (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

Cool stuff, dude http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Im glad someone is actually measuring it up and posting what they get. Hopefully I'll get a chance to do so myself one of these days.


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Jetta2dr)*

Take the .sized off the end if you want supersized


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (PowerDubs)*

Thanks powerdubs!
I'm gunna redo the max lift/lobe center to nearest tooth measurements. the gauge only goes down to 0.01mm and is only registering the 0.5* around lobe center(dang dwell). so I guestimated midway of where the gauge topped out and eyeballed it to make sure.
gunna try and get a more accurate gauge mounted up.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

so, my #'s are not acurate.








I cannot get the cam to run true in the degree wheel. and the dwell around lobe center is giving me problems
I need to fab a holder around the last cam bearing on the end for support and stick the cam in a carrier to get accurate readings.
I'm thinking an aluminium donut bigger than the cam lobe cut in half


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

get yourself one of these handy dandy arms


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (PowerDubs)*

what's that got to do with figuring the angle offset? 
well I gust inatalled my first cam again that I thought I buggard. I didn't know what I was doing and retarded it 7.7*ish (from origenal keyway) and tryed running it at 7 teeth.








but at 6 teeth it should be 4.1* ish retarded from the exhaust phased with the intake. according to the theory and my eyeball. 
and to think this was sitting in the trash can for 20 minutes before I fished it back out.
it should rip kinda hard I hope. I'm thinking my power should come on a little sooner than 4k. I want the powerband lower for autocross


_Modified by weeblebiker at 6:07 AM 3-25-2006_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

so I started it this morning, sounds throaty and had a little trouble idling. gunna open up the bypass a little.
---------
just got back. thought "screw it, the babies asleep in the swing and the older boys are up. so I took it out.
opened up the bypass about a turn and the idle smoothed out nicely. good to know it actually needs more air to idle at the same rpm.
so power comes on about 3200 rpm smooth held up to 6800rpm. any power loss up top was smooth and not really noticable. hit a cut off @7200 not 6800(My tach reads 6800 but my megasquirt reads 7200) then I'll see where the power stops up top. for street driving overall an invisably smooth power increase that is noticable but not incredable no sudden "kick in the pants". well worth the effort for diy'ers http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif. Not something I'd drop more than $100 on at this point for the increase power, but I'm a freaking tight wad.
gunna do a little more tuning and see if I can squeeze more out of the setup.
so that is my cam that I turned the gear 2.2-2.5mm clockwise at the keyway put in a 2L engine with a 2Lhead running cis-e and fuel mod. 
now to decide what to set the next one at. but I may megasquirt before I set the next cam. I think that may give me more top end than a slightly more retarded intake cam phase to reduce the overlap. 
maybe we just need to start a thread with settings and reviews of the results for this mod http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
hey jetta2dr, could you send me some charts? pm sent










_Modified by weeblebiker at 2:58 PM 3-25-2006_
as of 4/11/07 I have this cam back in my car with megasquirt, Gtech and going to be tuning with a wideband.



_Modified by weeblebiker at 12:52 AM 4-13-2007_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

This is what I get by averaging my results of 5 runs. duration #'s very good since I measured from change in displacement. tooth to lobe center not as acurate because of dwell and cam not perfectly true in collet. The intake tooth IS clockwise of lobe center.
by not accurate i mean +/- 0.25*
*exhaust:* 136* open to close, 90* 1mm to 1mm, tooth about 4* clockwise of lobe center.
*intake:* 122* open to close, 80* 1mm to 1mm, tooth about 0.5*clockwise of lobe center.
inner diameter of tming gear is 34.0 mm.
1* offset at the woodruff key is 0.2967059728mm.
Also the exhaust has more dwell around lobecenter than the intake.
do with it what you will









_Modified by weeblebiker at 4:50 PM 3-25-2006_


_Modified by weeblebiker at 9:31 AM 3-26-2006_


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## PowerDubs (Jul 22, 2001)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_what's that got to do with figuring the angle offset?


My bad... I guess I misread.. I figured you were having problems with the way you were trying to hold everything and read measurements.. I thought you could just slap a cam in a spare head so it would be stable and use an arm like that to mount the gauge..


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (PowerDubs)*

Powerdubs, sometimes I don't know about you








The thing I'm reading in my pic is the big round thing with the crank the cam is sticking out of. all the dial indicator does is tell me change in displacement from the center of the cam. It really does not matter what the number is on the dial indicator, except for the 1mm lift measurements.
so I took it out before bed time and drove it @ wot. and it kinda rips pretty hard actually. I didn't do any launches but it was struggling to maintain traction on dry pavement all through 2nd and most of 3rd. on my cheap falkins and shim kit 3.95 tranny


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

the car has more torque off idle too. I can work the clutch starting in first like I do when I shift from second to third. I also got going from a stop by just letting out the clutch at idle.
I just used the mill like it was supposed to be used this afternoon and cut 1.72mm off the side of a key.....


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

so now I'm sitting here with a cam advanced 5.8*
shaved the key, pressed it together, brazed the cavity. 
just have to drop it in some time soon http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## vwgli16vracer (Dec 3, 2005)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

i got my gear about 2.5mm clockwise and it really rips all the way up to 7500, kick on hard at about 4k


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (vwgli16vracer)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vwgli16vracer* »_i got my gear about 2.5mm clockwise and it really rips all the way up to 7500, kick on hard at about 4k

what's your set up?


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## vwgli16vracer (Dec 3, 2005)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

ok, i have an 88 gli with almost 250k on the original 1.8 16v, ttt exhaust, modified exhaust cam, euro cis, lightened alloy pulleys, right now an 8v knock box wich i don't like but it's all i have till i find a new 16v one. i'm swapping in a 2.0 shortblock and low mileage 1.8 head along with a header, cemterforce clutch and lightened flywheel. here's a pic of where i filed the new ketway in my gear








i put the keyway right between the 2 teeth and now i use the fifth tooth from the dot to line up the cams, i might play with a few more gears to see what happens but it looks like you gaot it under control so i might just wait and see what you end up with


_Modified by vwgli16vracer at 1:51 PM 3-29-2006_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (vwgli16vracer)*

that looks like alot more than 2.5mm. what was the measurement left side of old to left side of new keyway? and how did you figure it was about 2.5? 
2.5mm retarded is about the same as 1.7mm advanced minus a tooth http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I'm wanting an autocross cam maybe I should go ahead and melt out the brazing and cut another key at 1.5mm.
oh well, I'll just go ahead and cut a new key. and make another cam








then I'll have a 4*, 5* and 6* cam








er retarded from lobe center if placed in phase with the intake cam.


_Modified by weeblebiker at 11:44 AM 3-30-2006_


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## vwgli16vracer (Dec 3, 2005)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

well i must of had a lucky guess when i cut mine. my car now hangs with my buddy's 200 hp vr6 b3 passat. before he pulled away pretty good.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (vwgli16vracer)*

well my 1.72mm advanced cam is going in tonight.


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## jetta_joe (Mar 26, 2005)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

Let us know how it runs. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (jetta_joe)*

it runs very well








idle is good, sounds a little throatier than stock. 1mm open is in the same position as the stock cam so no idle problems.
not quite as much torgue off idle and up through 3k as the other cam with 1* more overlap, but more than the stock cam. 
you can feel it come on stronger from 3-4k rpm and stays strong up to 6800 rpm. 
feels like it should hold past that also.

so 1.72mm off the side of the key. any machine shop with a digital mill can do it. orient so the gear is twisted clockwise and press it back on. stick it in the oven @ 550* stick it in a vice and heat the gear all the way around with a propane torch for a while untill you get solder to melt in the gap. the solder will braze the gear to the cam http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif plus it is reversable if you want to do something like reduce overlap for boost








put the new timing mark 6 teeth clockwise from the old mark.


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## Jetta2dr (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

Ok, I was _finally_ able to degree an exhaust cam on the intake side in the head. I think my figures are fairly accurate, as I was able to reproduce them with a difference of about 2%.
So these are the specs for the exhaust cam at 6 teeth exactly:
-15 BTDC IVO @ .050"
50 ABDC IVC @ .050"
122.5 LC
To get the cam timed with a 112 lobe center (to be symetrical with the exhaust cam, and timed very similarly to the TT street cams) you would have to advance the cam 10.5* from 6 teeth, which is 5.25* at the cam (cause of the whole twice spinny thing, you know.) Not saying this timing is ideal, but from what I can tell it would be a good starting point since its similar (opening and closing times) to the TT street cams, which are proven.
Maybe someday I'll actually do this mod


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Jetta2dr)*

interesting, so the TT set has less overlap than the stock set?
I'm dealing with oil pressure gauge and oil buzzer issues now


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## Jetta2dr (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

I guess they do have a little less overlap, but TT says the cams are based off of the ABF cams, so maybe thats why.
Sucks about the oil pressy issues.
I'll see how far I get into trying my cam setup this weekend.


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## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Jetta2dr)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jetta2dr* »_Ok, I was _finally_ able to degree an exhaust cam on the intake side in the head. I think my figures are fairly accurate, as I was able to reproduce them with a difference of about 2%.
So these are the specs for the exhaust cam at 6 teeth exactly:
-15 BTDC IVO @ .050"
50 ABDC IVC @ .050"
122.5 LC
To get the cam timed with a 112 lobe center (to be symetrical with the exhaust cam, and timed very similarly to the TT street cams) you would have to advance the cam 10.5* from 6 teeth, which is 5.25* at the cam (cause of the whole twice spinny thing, you know.) Not saying this timing is ideal, but from what I can tell it would be a good starting point since its similar (opening and closing times) to the TT street cams, which are proven.
Maybe someday I'll actually do this mod









122.5 LC, wouldn't that make it a decent boost cam?
_Tightening the lobe center angle produces more overlap around TDC and wider angles mean less overlap.
_


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## Jetta2dr (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (OttawaG60)*

I dont know, it may work well for boost. Since the stock exhaust cam closes at -4.5 BTDC, and the modified exhaust cam as an intake would open -15 BTDC, so there is no overlap at all.
I basically just wanted to get the actual numbers out there so that people can try different setups and actually know what their cam timing is, instead of guessing or making assumptions. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Jetta2dr)*

No overlap, sounds great for boost


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (OttawaG60)*

looks like we got the demensioning covered now








I'm dropping my oil pan this next week sometime. wish me luck
It's acting like the pickup tube is partially blocked. idle pressure has not changed but max pressure has dropped from 80psi to 45psi.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

lesson learned
ONLY USE A LITTLE SEALANT ON THE VALVECOVER GASKET!
when you play with the cams.
apparently the sqeezings on the inside break off and end up in your oil pickup screen








no gold bits in the oil pan http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## GTOBB (Dec 30, 2003)

my 1.8 16v dual exhaust cam, not tuned yet , on full load too lean or too rich (5th gear), injection/ignition DIGI I from G60.
first impression.
http://gto.vw-scene.info/


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## superloaf (Aug 4, 2005)

weeble,
what's the update on your cams? (just waiting for someone to dial there's in before i attempt a try.)








also, how hard is it to cut the end of the exhaust cam? is it possible with simple tools (hacksaw) or is it best left to a machine shop? does the distributer end have to be cut as well?
and does anyone know if the modded exhaust cam will still pas smog? at first i figured it wouldn't but since you guys say there's no overlap, maybe it will.
thanks


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (superloaf)*

I set mine to have the same 1mm valve opening timming as stock. this will cause the initial opening to happen a little sooner by maybe 1*.
it runs and idles well with power starting a little sooner and a little better off idle response. can't tell ya what it does over 6200rpm though but feels strong up to it. had my oil pickup get blocked by valvecover sealent bits then just blew my clutch torque springs out checking my low rev limit issue. I got something binding the flywheel. hope I didn't damage my thrustbearing and crank








no emissions tests in Indiana










_Modified by weeblebiker at 2:27 AM 4-23-2006_


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## superloaf (Aug 4, 2005)

c'mon, weeble, we need you back up and running. (sorry, i admit to selfish interests on this as i just found an exhaust cam to play with.)
anyways, i'll try and add to this discussion and i guess we'll see if this mod can pass CA smog tests. although i have to admit i feel a bit overwhelmed with where to start. do you recommend cutting a new groove for the woodruff key or using the offset keys?
also, can i cut the cam myself or do i need a machine shop for that? it sounds horrible to saw a cam in two with a hacksaw and i'm not even sure if that's possible--so how do i chop it?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (superloaf)*

take it to a machine shop and have em chop it and press the gear off. it shouldn't cost you more than $20 more likely $10 if you go through the back door and talk directly to one of the machinists and tell em what your doing. most machine shop guys dig stuff like this.
they may be asble to cut the key for you.
considering the overlap is about the same as stock, i believe it would pass emmissions.
don't hit your rev limiter with a Sachs clutch disc















im ordering a clutchnet disc and pressureplate this week


----------



## superloaf (Aug 4, 2005)

is there any easy & foolproof way to get the timing perfect with little or knowledge of camshafts? ok, so i'm not that bad but i've read all of the posts in here and elsewhere about the timing and still not sure how to do it. i realize there's a bit of disagreement over the right timing.
i've heard of using the kent adjustable gear and i'm guessing this would be a great way to go if i'm doing it trial & error which seems like how it will be. who sells these & how much? i found a similar item by bertils but it was $165 which seems a little high so hopefully the kent isn't that much. or does anyone have a single kent they want to sell?
and weeble, GL with the clutch--i'm sure you'll be up and running to 7500 before you know it!


----------



## superloaf (Aug 4, 2005)

ok, answered my own question about the kent gears--$169 from eurorace.
does anyone have a single lying around they want to sell?


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (superloaf)*

ya need to read this thread again. this thread IS about an easy and foolproof way to adjust the cam








cut 1.72mm off the key for an intake with the same 1mm opening as stock. this will give better low end and (I'm sure)power up to the 7200 rev limit.
cut 1.5577mm off the key for an intake that mimics the TT street cam set. ya may loose some off idle power but should do better in the upper rev ranges
but you will need to braze or weld the gear on


_Modified by weeblebiker at 5:32 PM 4-26-2006_


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## superloaf (Aug 4, 2005)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_cut 1.72mm off the key for an intake with the same 1mm opening as stock. this will give better low end and (I'm sure)power up to the 7200 rev limit.
cut 1.5577mm off the key for an intake that mimics the TT street cam set. ya may loose some off idle power but should do better in the upper rev ranges
but you will need to braze or weld the gear on
_Modified by weeblebiker at 5:32 PM 4-26-2006_

what's the advantage to altering the key or original key slot? wouldn't it be better to cut a new groove in the gear like 92vwgli did? then you have several different slots between different teeth you could cut for different timing. is it too hard to be accurate doing it that way? or is it just a preference? just wondering if i'm missing something here.
thanks


_Modified by superloaf at 2:58 AM 5-3-2006_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (superloaf)*

the gear is hardened and the machine shop would have to have a keyway cutter. 1* is 0.296mm moving the keyway would require the adjustment plus moving teeth. I wouldn't trust any shop that does not specialize in recutting gear keyways and can get pricey since your getting into the realm of race machine work. any shop can cut down a key and stock exhaust cams are cheap on ebay comparetively.

Braze it together with solder and you can take it apart later and run a different key


_Modified by weeblebiker at 3:33 AM 5-4-2006_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

on the road again!
wasn't a clutch, I spun #3 rod. everyone take note what this cam info I'm sharing with everyone cost me...........





























and don't use silicone based sealant on the valve cover!
good thing I had 2 extra sets of 9a stuff laying around.
btw, the brazing on the cam is holding up perfect.
so the cost: 1 crank,4 piston/rod assemblies(they were wieght matched and balanced), main and rod bearings, head gasket and bolts, starter, about 6-10 hours.
maybe a new euro cam would have been cheaper but not as fun!


_Modified by weeblebiker at 1:18 PM 5-23-2006_


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## superloaf (Aug 4, 2005)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

congrats weeble on your up & running car!
i'm still waiting for my exhaust cam--apparently it's AWOL, a victim of parcel post. still waiting after 2 weeks so i may be out of luck on that one.


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## terrible-one (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

im very interested in this subject and i can get ahold of a exhast cam very quickly if i could only understand most of the information that is being thrown around in here







.
weeble you are a true pioneer and a great trail blaser







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif , i have a question and you probly allready answered it more than once in this fourm but,
if i get a exhast cam what would need to be done to get the "good allround performance" from it, now i love my tourqe just as much or more than the next guy and probly wouldn't want to exchange it for high rpm hp and lumpy idle.








so i guess what im asking is if i get a cam and get it choped and the gear pressed off would i be able to get a modifyed gear from someone who has allrady modifyed it and put it on or is the machine work needed on the cam shaft it self?
thanks so much for your help, and all your great trail blazing information for the rest of us. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif










_Modified by terrible-one at 8:17 PM 11-1-2006_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (terrible-one)*

thanks, but I stand on the shoulders of giants
maybe greedy giants, this information has been around for a while, anyone who has been on the boards for the last 10 years has heard rumors and second hand hearsay, and people who didn't understand how cams work just dropping an exhaust cam in without timing it properly, but people who have figured it out either wanted to keep it for them selves or sell the info for too much money
the 5.8*-6* is the best position for the cam of this duration for na or low boost.any more advanced and you get un burnt fuel going out the exhaust, possibly screwing with your o2 sensor and definitly dropping fuel milage. less advanced makes a lopy idle and leaves the valves open too far into the compression stroke for any streetable use.
cutting a new keyway is gunna be difficult the gear is hardened after it is made. good luck finding a machine shop that will do it, unless they have heat treating abilty and can aneal, then reharden it. 
you need a hydraulic press to get the gear on and off. don't heat the gear over 500* or you may soften it.
the easiest way is to shave the key it'self and use it to index the gear.like outlined earlier, I braze the key with solderafterward. 
this method holds up fine if you have your timing belt go, I tested it @ 6500+ rpm to make sure















Oh I have a text edited pic to attch to this thread if anyone wants to host it, and we can put the other pic back in. I am web pic illiterate, got more important things to do with my time








the duration is too great for high boost applications so stop asking








err ah sure, use it for high boost and wonder why you get pressure waves through your intake cause your pistons are coming back up and pushing pressure back out of the intake valves before they close 


_Modified by weeblebiker at 1:28 PM 11-5-2006_


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## terrible-one (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

free bump for a good guy http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif







, and to keep the thread alive


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## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (terrible-one)*

I've heard the cam, unmodified, seems to work well with a med boost (10psi) supercharged setup.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (OttawaG60)*


_Quote, originally posted by *OttawaG60* »_I've *heard* the cam, unmodified, *seems* to work well with a med boost (10psi) supercharged setup.









tell me what happens when a cam is open after 80**abdc* and how it can be beneficial in any application then post this up.
remeber piston tdc to bdc is 180 crank degrees. now THINK about what's going on with valves open 272 crank degrees








I'm sorry and do not want you to think I'm picking on you or anyone. but a LOT of mis-information and "impressions" about cams is tossed around by people. 



_Modified by weeblebiker at 5:35 PM 11-8-2006_


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## OttawaG60 (Apr 7, 2001)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

the car is basically the same as mine, main difference was the exhaust cam and larger intercooler
dynoed @ 240whp
the *seems* to be good evidence that it works well.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (OttawaG60)*








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
now that's what you should have posted the first time. 
what boost levels are we looking at?
the way I understand how things are working is that the duration from bdc up to 80* *abdc* (beyond bottom dead center) is giving more time for air to rush in to fill the vacuum created by the piston before the piston really pick up upward velocity (but it is still moving upward at this point) when you high boost, there is not much vacuum or no vacuum at all somewhere just past bdc, so unles you map everything out (and I don't even know where to begin this), your gambling the pressure rise in the cylinder will be less than the pressure in the intake when the valves close.
maybe I'm wrong though








the laptop with the pics is having issues http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

_Modified by weeblebiker at 2:49 AM 11-8-2006_


_Modified by weeblebiker at 5:36 PM 11-8-2006_


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## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_ bbdc (beyond bottom dead center) 


Incorrect.
BBDC=BEFORE Bottom Dead Center
ABDC=After Bottom Dead Center
Otherwise, some good info here. Unfortunately, most have missed the fact that moving a cam from the exhaust side to the intake side necessarily rotates it 1/2 tooth or 7.2 cam deg. This is because the chain is 44 teeth and the sprockets are 25. (44-25)/2=9.5 Thus, those who give offsets in whole teeth like "6 teeth", "7 teeth" or "8 teeth" are all off by half a tooth (some in one direction and some in the other), where one tooth is 14.4 deg. Note that flipping (remove and install backwards) the sprocket should be good for 7.5 teeth (thus, a way to get that 1/2 tooth "back" if you really want it: 7.5-0.5=7.0). 
The original racer's post seems to have been talking about this arrangement:
Name/Part #/Lift /In. [email protected]"/Ex. [email protected]"/Lobe Center	/Ex. Open [email protected]"/In. Open [email protected]"/Ex. Close [email protected]/In. Close [email protected]/Overlap @ 0.050"/Total Cam Advance BTDC (crank deg)
/Notes
Mod 16V Ex as In / none/.402"/215/215/106/33.5/1.5/1.5/33.5/3/0/Suggested; Retard Int sprock 106 deg = 7.5 teeth - 2 deg adv; Rtd Pulley 1 cam deg
A huge number of other arrangements are both possible and workable, depending on whether you want to emphasize torque, midrange, or top-end. More overlap will give a rough idle but a stronger midrange. An earlier intake closing will give more torque. A later intake closing will give more topend. Unfortunately, given the fixed 215 deg duration of the cam in question, the best choices are to shoot for overall timing points near the euro setup and then optimize for your desired emphasis on torque, midrange or (not and) topend. The euro setup is:
Euro Intake 16V .378"/.402"	207	215	109	39.5	-2.5	-4.5	29.5	-7	1	Euro spec 1.8L 16V "KR"
I would say that the original poster who went with 106 deg "straight up" (i.e., zeroed total cam advance at the belt pulley), must have been aiming for an increase in midrange over the stock setup but with a relatively stock idle. If your priorities happen to be different, then that may not be the best adjustment for you. Here are some other workable set-ups (that is, no serious drawbacks), selected from several dozen possibiliites. Note that these are just the "easy" possibilities that don't need offset sprocket keys, but usually do need an offset belt pulley key to zero out the total cam advance (always a good idea, IMHO):
Mod 16V Ex as In .402"	215	215	100.8	28.4	6.8	6.6	28.2	13.4	0.1	7.0 teeth clockwise (flip in. sprocket); rtd pulley 5.5 cam deg=1t-1.4; good top end, poor idle
Mod 16V Ex as In .402"	215	215	108	35.5	-0.5	-0.5	35.5	-1	0	7.5 teeth clockwise; rtd pulley 1.9 cam degrees; good mid-range and idle
Mod 16V Ex as In .402"	215	215	115.2	42.8	-7.6	-7.8	42.6	-15.4	0.1	8.0 teeth clockwise (flip in. sprocket); adv pulley 1.7 cam deg; good torque, maybe for high boost or economy
Note that anything in between these is also possible if you're willing to offset the sprocket(s) (in addition to the belt pulley). For example:
Mod 16V Ex as In .402"	215	215	100	27.5	7.5	7.5	27.5	15	0	experiment 1
Mod 16V Ex as In .402"	215	215	101	28.5	6.5	6.5	28.5	13	0	experiment 2
Mod 16V Ex as In .402"	215	215	102	29.5	5.5	5.5	29.5	11	0	experiment 3
Mod 16V Ex as In .402"	215	215	103	30.5	4.5	4.5	30.5	9	0	experiment 4
Mod 16V Ex as In .402"	215	215	104	31.5	3.5	3.5	31.5	7	0	experiment 5
Mod 16V Ex as In .402"	215	215	105	32.5	2.5	2.5	32.5	5	0	experiment 6
Mod 16V Ex as In .402"	215	215	106	33.5	1.5	1.5	33.5	3	0	experiment 7
Mod 16V Ex as In .402"	215	215	107	34.5	0.5	0.5	34.5	1	0	experiment 8
Mod 16V Ex as In .402"	215	215	108	35.5	-0.5	-0.5	35.5	-1	0	experiment 9
Mod 16V Ex as In .402"	215	215	109	36.5	-1.5	-1.5	36.5	-3	0	experiment 10
Mod 16V Ex as In .402"	215	215	110	37.5	-2.5	-2.5	37.5	-5	0	experiment 11
Mod 16V Ex as In .402"	215	215	111	38.5	-3.5	-3.5	38.5	-7	0	experiment 12
Mod 16V Ex as In .402"	215	215	112	39.5	-4.5	-4.5	39.5	-9	0	experiment 13
As you can see, I've just spent way too much time on this today and need to get some rest. These are not actual measurements, but simply calculations that I did by starting with a few bits of readily available info. Thus, it is possible that there are some errors here. Take it for what it's worth, and I hope it helps. Cheers! 
P.S. -- To answer one of the original poster's questions, shaving the head or decking the block on these engines retards the timing (roughly 0.1 crank degrees per 0.010" height reduction). Installing a thicker head gasket advances the timing in a similar way.


_Modified by o2bad455 at 3:05 AM 11-8-2006_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (o2bad455)*

correct,
I meant abdc








that's what happens when I rush
really good input!
thank you from everyone Sir!
I just have to take some time and read through this more thoroughly


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

just to clarify
I'm setting the intakes as in your experiment 13.


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## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

Cool. Do you have an adjustable sprocket and an adjustable pulley? If not, you'll need a 4 degree offset sprocket key (or two 2 degree keys) and about a 1.1 degree offset pulley key. Mercedes 2.3 16V may be a good key source. I expect Exp.13 to behave pretty much stock up to a certain point, and then breath much better at the top end. Everthing at 0.050" clearance:
Lobe centers 112 
Ex. opens 39.5 BBDC 
In. opens -4.5 BTDC (=+4.5 ATDC) 
Ex. closes -4.5	ATDC (=+4.5 BTDC) 
In. closes 39.5 ABDC 
Overlap	-9 (exhaust closes 9 before intake opens at 0.050") 
Total advance 0 
There are 2 ways to get the lobe centers at 112, but here's the most straightforward. Get the new intake cam from 0 (mark facing forward) to 108 cam degrees by rotating clockwise 7.5 teeth clockwise (remember that the 1/2 tooth is automatic or forced due to the chain), and then retard an additional 4 cam deg by offset keys in one or both sprockets. Next, retard the pulley 8 crank degrees = 4 cam degrees counter-clockwise with a 4 degree offset key (some say a small amount of total cam advance may be ok or even desirable, but the danger is that it may confuse the issues). 
Edit: Fixed pulley offset from crank degrees to cam degrees.


_Modified by o2bad455 at 9:29 AM 11-9-2006_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (o2bad455)*

It is not as difficult as all that.
the exhaust cam in stock position on the exhaust side closes at 
-4.5atdc
the stock intake opens at -4.5
stock lobe center is 107*
the exhaust cam has 10* more duration at 1mm opening
this is what I got directly measuring the lobe profiles as listed earlier in the thread
exhaust: 136* open to close, 90* 1mm to 1mm, tooth about 4* clockwise of lobe center.
intake: 122* open to close, 80* 1mm to 1mm, tooth about 0.5*clockwise of lobe center.
inner diameter of tming gear is 34.0 mm.
1* offset at the woodruff key is 0.2967059728mm.
so rotate the gear on the exhaust as intake about 3.5* or 3.6* which was tossed around by other trusted people (OHIOBenz and Powerdubs) counter clockwise to get the lobe center at 107* like stock set up. then rotate the gear an additional 5* to get the exhaust as intake opening 1mm at the came point as the stock intake. which makes a lobe center of 112*
or 14.4-8.6= 5.8* clockwise plus the teeth








does this sound right?


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## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

Hmmm. You must not be starting in the same reference position (unadjusted sprocket mark facing forward only 1/2 tooth rotated from it's position as exhaust cam). From there, the additional rotation is clockwise to retard it the rest of the 112 (112-14.4/2=104.8). 
Edit: I think you're right. Different points of reference but it should be the same result. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by o2bad455 at 4:40 PM 11-18-2006_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (o2bad455)*

I don't think your visualizing it.
turning the gear clockwise relative to the cam lobe then plus the tooth movment.
I gotta get the other laptop with the pics going again










_Modified by weeblebiker at 4:47 PM 11-9-2006_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

I think we are just aproaching this from different directions
My aproach was to calculate from knowns this was my method
1: stock exhaust and intake #'s (as you prefer to list them)
2: verify first hand lobe demensions
3: use a common reference point on each cam (gear tooth closest to lobe center)
4: locate each lobe from the reference point.
5: Determine the desired location of the new intake cam (I decided to go with 1mm valve opening at the same position as stock 1mm valve opening to keep the stock overlap so the idle would be fine, low end torque would be ok, and give some more mid and upper end. which translated into the exhaust as intake lobe center 5* retarded relative to the stock intake lobe center.
at this point you can back calculate all the other profile #'s)
5: Calculate the change in position from reference point (gear tooth)to lobe center to reposition the new intake cam to the desired position.
I left the exhaust position alone. The exhaust cam is pretty well positioned, amd I could not see any real benefit of fiddling with the position for a set of street cams.
does this make more sense or did I miss something?



_Modified by weeblebiker at 2:38 PM 11-10-2006_


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## Jetta2dr (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

I still havnt tried this







(keep getting distracted with other projects) 
but
From where I first heard of this (here: http://www.scirocco.org/faq/head/ ) it says to run the cams with 106* lobe center. So you'd have to modify both keyways. But it would be interesting to see how this goes compaired to retiming just the new intake.
Maybe someday I'll have time to play with it...


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Jetta2dr)*

I was thinking about that setup.
you don't need to modify both keys, just the intake gear and a adjustable timing belt gear will do it.


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## Jetta2dr (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

Yeah, but remember I'm cheap! Otherwise I'd just buy some adjustable internal sprockets


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Jetta2dr)*

your gunna have to cut a new keyway into the exhaust cam for the timing belt gear then. that is a little beyond my machining skills, making fixtures to hold the cam and such.
yah side projects
just finishing up putting my tranny in again cause the main seal got buggard and the aftermarket clutch disc center hub broke loose and was rattling, and I pulled a piece of the gasket out and caused a leak. so it was time.
I think I'd be better off just not messing with cars



_Modified by weeblebiker at 11:22 PM 11-10-2006_


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## Jetta2dr (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

Oh yeah, duh


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## SvenRasta (Nov 16, 2002)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_I don't think your visualizing it.
turning the gear clockwise relative to the cam lobe then plus the tooth movment.
I gotta get the other laptop with the pics going again









_Modified by weeblebiker at 4:47 PM 11-9-2006_
Pictures would be great and page 3 owned










_Modified by SvenRasta at 11:18 AM 11-11-2006_


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## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (SvenRasta)*

Note: Please read the italicized EDIT halfway down in this post. 
The offset Woodruff keys that actually fit (EDIT: with minor grinding) are for a 1987 Mercedes Benz 190E 2.3L 16V. This is known from working with VW 8V belt sprockets and pulleys (cam, early crank, int. shaft, and even the Bosch alternator), and I just verified that the VW 16V chain sprockets take the same dimension keys (4x5x12.5mm, 4 being the original width in mm) as the VW 8V keys. 
The 1987 MB 2.3 16V keys are available in at least 4 different offsets (1.3mm, 1.1mm, 0.9mm and 0.7mm). One can be used on each sprocket to get more or less total (subtract for same orientation, add for opposite orientation). BEWARE: Don't buy 1986 MB 190E 2.3L 8V keys which are DIFFERENT. It's only the 1987 MB 16V keys that are close! 
_
EDIT: The following MB offset woodruff keys are 4x6.5x15.5mm instead of VW's 4x5x12.5mm, thus the width and offset dimensions are good but the keys are too tall and too long, requiring some relatively simple grinding. I'm told that there once were keys that fit without any grinding, but that they were actually custom made by one of the big parts houses and are not currently available. There never was a direct interchange from another make that didn't require at least some non-critical grinding. 
The MB part numbers are:
1.3mm: A4190-21381
1.1mm: A4190-21382
0.9mm: A4190-21383
0.7mm: A4190-21384
_
Also, although they're not offset, the 1/2 inch keys at NAPA are close enough in 2 dimensions but come in widths of 1/8 (about 3.2mm) and 3/32 (about 2.4mm), which might be easier (but possibly weaker) than filing a stock VW one by 0.8 or 1.6mm, respectively. 


_Modified by o2bad455 at 1:53 AM 12-8-2006_


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## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (o2bad455)*

According to my quick measurements of the VW 16V chain sprockets, each 1.0mm of offset should give about 3.44 degrees of advance or retard (or 3.44 degrees per mm). So, 1.3mm would give about 4.5 degrees. Two 1.3mm offset keys (one on each chain sprocket) could give up to 9 degrees (more than 1/2 of a 14.4 degree tooth), so basically any desired offset is possible with the Mercedes Benz 2.3 16V (MB) offset keys. 
Thus, to achieve 106 degree lobe centers as in "experiment 7", for example, the new intake cam should be retarded 106/14.4=7.36 teeth relative to the real exhaust cam. Accounting for the 1/2 tooth due to the chain (see 1st full paragraph of my 1st or AM 11-08-2006 post), the closest sprocket retard is 7.5 teeth and the cam itself is then advanced another 0.14 teeth or 2.0 degrees with an offset key. 2.0 degrees is achieved by (2.0/3.44)=0.58mm. If the closest offset is the above-mentioned 0.7mm MB 16V key, the result is only 0.12mm too advanced for a resulting lobe center of 105.4 degrees. Not too shabby. Remember that the belt pulley still needs to be zeroed separately so the total timing is "straight up". Here, retard at the belt pulley by 1.0 degree (about 0.2mm if using another offset key at the belt pulley).
To achieve 112 deg lobe centers as in our "experiment 13", the new intake cam should be retarded 112/14.4=7.78 teeth relative to the real exhaust cam. Accounting for the 1/2 tooth due to the chain, the closest sprocket retard is again 7.5 teeth and the cam is then retarded another 0.28 teeth or 4.0 degrees. 4.0 degrees is achieved by (4.0/3.44)=1.16mm. If the closest offset is the above-mentioned 1.1mm MB 16V key, the result is only 0.06mm too advanced for a resulting lobe center of 111.8 degrees. Even closer







Here, advance at the belt pulley by about 3.2 degrees to zero out the total timing (about 0.6mm if using another offset key at the belt pulley).


_Modified by o2bad455 at 2:39 AM 12-1-2006_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (o2bad455)*

I read through your page 2 posts and we are talking about the same thing but with different reference points. your aproaching from thoretical cams timing and I'm aproaching adjusting relative to stock cam timing.
distributing the offset between the 2 gears may be more comfortable for people, puts more key material in the gears. this aproach necessitates an adjustable timing belt gear though. but if one only want to purchase parts and not machine anything, the method you suggest may be the way to go. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I did check into making sure tha cam with only 2.28mm of key in the gear and brazing the gap with solder would hold, by slipping my crank gear at 6k+ rpm and ramming my intake valves into my pistons. the cam held fine. i did this on purpose to demonstrate the idea














not really, but it happened








I don't think the 106* lobe seperation would be worth while
they would make a hole lot of overlap (112* achieves stock ovelap), I don't think this much overlap is a good idea, just make your fuel milage go down the toilet, mid range would be better but the cams would die about the same time or sooner than the stock cams.I don't know what the un burnt fuel going out the exhaust would do for you o2 sensor and cat but I think it would be hard on em and may screw your 02 feedback.
I really think 110*-114* lobe separation is optimal
wohoo!! seasonal smilies!





















http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif 



_Modified by weeblebiker at 2:20 AM 12-2-2006_


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_I read through your page 2 posts and we are talking about the same thing but with different reference points. your aproaching from thoretical cams timing and I'm aproaching adjusting relative to stock cam timing.


Yes, I think so too. 

_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_distributing the offset between the 2 gears may be more comfortable for people, puts more key material in the gears. 


Agree that distributing the offsets between the two gears makes for stronger offset keys and/or more possible total adjustment. 

_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_this aproach necessitates an adjustable timing belt gear though. but if one only want to purchase parts and not machine anything, the method you suggest may be the way to go. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


Thanks, but I disagree on belt-end issues. I think it makes no difference whether all intercam or chain-end adjustment is done at one or both chain sprockets since it still only moves the intake cam on the VW 16V design. The exhaust cam position is still determined only by the belt-end. 
As an aside, my position is that adjusting the belt-end afterwards is almost always beneficial, and generally required if you want to set the overall timing to zero ("straight up"). I'm told that a brand new adjustable belt gear can be found for about $40 online. 

_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_I did check into making sure tha cam with only 2.28mm of key in the gear and brazing the gap with solder would hold, by slipping my crank gear at 6k+ rpm and ramming my intake valves into my pistons. the cam held fine. i did this on purpose to demonstrate the idea














not really, but it happened










Sorry to hear that, but thanks for sharing the data. 
When you filed the stock key, did you flatten the whole thing, just the part that extended into one of the sprocket or cam notch so the other part was still full thickness, or one side of the top and the other side of the bottom? 
Was the key in the failure "test" installed for incremental advance or retard of the intake camshaft? If for retard, it's possible that hard key surface was still the only compressed part. But if for advance, I think your solder/brazing would have seen the compression force in series with the remaining portion of the key. It might make a difference. 

_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_
I don't think the 106* lobe seperation would be worth . . . . 
I really think 110*-114* lobe separation is optimal


You may be right for most street applications, and especially if the resulting engine must meet certain emissions limits such as unburned hydrocarbons. I do think that the chosen lobe separation angle (LSA) for this mod still depends exclusively on both the specific application and the ultimate goals of the tuner. Experimenting with overall offset at the belt-end may make some otherwise unacceptable LSAs more acceptable for certain apps.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (o2bad455)*


_Quote, originally posted by *o2bad455* »_
Thanks, but I disagree on belt-end issues. I think it makes no difference whether all intercam or chain-end adjustment is done at one or both chain sprockets since it still only moves the intake cam on the VW 16V design. The exhaust cam position is still determined only by the belt-end. 
your right, I didn't think it through, both chain gears have nothing to do with exhaust timing relative to the pistons, just the timing belt gear will effect this.
As an aside, my position is that adjusting the belt-end afterwards is almost always beneficial, and generally required if you want to set the overall timing to zero ("straight up"). I'm told that a brand new adjustable belt gear can be found for about $40 online. 
someone chime in on this, I believe only the 8v adjustable timing belt gears are this cheap.

When you filed the stock key, did you flatten the whole thing, just the part that extended into one of the sprocket or cam notch so the other part was still full thickness, or one side of the top and the other side of the bottom? 
I take a mill bit into the side of the key so the part potruding into the gear is full size. 
I turn the gear clockwise relative to the cam as this requires the least amount of key shaving, so the solder is on the pressure side of the key pushing on the unshaved side of the key. the gear base is over the shaved part of the key. 

when I bent my intake valves there was no distortion of the solder or a gap on the shaved side of the key.

















my reply didn't look as good as yours








I think I speak for everyone in saying thanks for the input and info on the offset keys http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
























_Modified by weeblebiker at 1:38 AM 12-3-2006_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (o2bad455)*


_Quote, originally posted by *o2bad455* »_According to my quick measurements of the VW 16V chain sprockets, each 1.0mm of offset should give about 3.44 degrees

_Modified by o2bad455 at 2:39 AM 12-1-2006_

uhoh! where'd you get 33.3mm for the shaft dia?

the diameter of the shaft I measured was 34mm where the gear presses on. 
2pie R is circumfrence which would be 34 x pie then divide by 360 to get mm/*

I got .2967051 mm/* or 3.37 */1mm




_Modified by weeblebiker at 6:47 PM 12-3-2006_


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

You're probably right. I didn't have my caliper handy so I only used a tape measure. 
BTW, I just ordered a batch of the offset shims that I suggested earlier, and they came through too big in length and height. Only the widths and offsets were right. I never had to grind them before, so either someone did it for me last time, the part numbers I gave aren't quite right, or they simply sent me the wrong parts. I'll figure it out and update these posts as necessary.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (o2bad455)*

you gunna correct your offset key #'s 5 posts up?


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

Corrected the specs, but the part numbers are the best we can do right now. 


_Modified by o2bad455 at 2:28 AM 12-6-2006_


----------



## o2bad455 (Aug 22, 2003)

The nominal size of the VW Woodruff keys is "4x13mm". Keys of this size should always have the same 5mm nominal radius. VW happens to call them "4 x 5" in ETKA, but that's apparently not per the industry standard naming convention. The smallest we can find in other cars seems to be "4x16mm" in the MB 190E 16V, BMW Mini Tritec, and probably Dodge 2.2/2.5. Some foreign motorcycles do use this size, but none that I've found have readily available offsets.


----------



## superloaf (Aug 4, 2005)

have you guys seen this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...d=1,1
same price as a kent but you can buy seperately. also, he has 2 for $115.
just not sure about the quality and/or strength. i guess you really don't want to skimp on quality/strength in this area.
also, how much adjustment do you need to use this gear rather than reindexing the OEM gear with offset woodruff as discussed earlier? i'm assuming this ebay gear would have enough adjustment but don't really know for sure.
i'm dying to get mod. exhaust cam in but just haven't been able to commit to the timing R&D needed but this gear seems like it would be so much easier to deal with.


----------



## NORSK (Feb 26, 2006)

*Re: (superloaf)*

Kent sprockets are 190usd for a pair


----------



## superloaf (Aug 4, 2005)

*Re: (NORSK)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NORSK* »_Kent sprockets are 190usd for a pair

yeah, i just saw how they went up. (i saw them for $199)
so those ebay gears seem like a pretty good deal. i asked the seller who made them & he said they are made by a supplier he knows for him so i guess there's no history on them. 
anyone know if 4 allen bolts are strong enough to hold it together?
what do the kent sprockets look like? are they similar? can't find any pictures of the kent. does anyone have any pics of it or know where some are?


----------



## NORSK (Feb 26, 2006)

*Re: (superloaf)*

Here is a link to a Bildon/CAT gear,but where is the slot going in??
http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...Nav=6


----------



## superloaf (Aug 4, 2005)

*Re: (NORSK)*

thanks for that link. never seen that brand or seller before. yeah, where's the slot? probably a prototype or something.
is that $140 for 2?
who else makes these gears?
i think i'm going to have to get one of these before i try my modded exhaust cam. i'm just imagining not using one and having to rip into the engine and take out the cam to refile a slot or rebraze the gear on or whatever the alternatives are. i'm guessing i'll really be annoyed doing all that when i could have just spent $80 for an adjustable gear.
of course, that's assuming you can adjust them with the cam still installed. that's the way it works, right? anyone use one of these?


----------



## tomacGTi (May 28, 1999)

*Re: (superloaf)*

of course, that's assuming you can adjust them with the cam still installed. that's the way it works, right? anyone use one of these?
I've got news for you, even with an adjustable sprocket, you have to disassemble everything as if it were a regular sprocket. There just isn't any room as in a Honda or otherwise to stick in an allen and loosen, adjust and tighten. 
You really want to take the cam out and re-locktite the bolts after adjusting the sprocket just because you don't want to risk anything backing out and grenading you top end. At least I wouldn't anyway.
When Mac (freerevving) and I were ******* around with this mod awhile back, I remember being into my valve cover two and three times in the course of two days. I got really good at realigning the cams. That and make sure you purchase a couple of extra VC gaskets as they are prone to leak after the second time in there regardless of how careful you are. 
This is also how I was able to get my cam dialled in. If I had more patience I would have gone with the keyway approach but this offered more options when it became available to me. I would have preferred to do the keyway as it would have been truly a low-bucks mod then.
-Randy


----------



## NORSK (Feb 26, 2006)

*Re: (tomacGTi)*

The gear sold at ebay can be adjusted with the cams installed.
Because the allen bolts are facing the back of the cyl head.


----------



## NORSK (Feb 26, 2006)

*Re: (NORSK)*

And that gear are also supplied with lock washers,so there is no need using loctite


----------



## superloaf (Aug 4, 2005)

*Re: (NORSK)*

any updates on the modded exhaust cam frontier?
i swear i'm going to get to mine one of these days.
and, weeble, you sell a cam ready to go for $60 exchanged? do you any ready to go or does it take a while? 
and what timing do you use? do you offer different timing for different applications?
hmmm, maybe i'll take the easy way . . . .


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (superloaf)*

sorry, didn't see this was bumped.
I mod the cam you send in, not a "core exchange". had someone snap one on instillation and replaced it. I'm not making enough off this to do that again








I'll be able to tell you how it runs on ms in a few more weeks















on a side note about the ebay gears, and most adjustable gears. how exactly are you going to gauge the * offset you do????? something to think about










_Modified by weeblebiker at 12:27 AM 2-5-2007_


----------



## Jetta2dr (Feb 19, 2001)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

I've got a modded exhaust cam all set to go, opens .050" at -4BTDC. Pretty close to the -3.5BTDC I was going for to mimick the TT street cams. Just gonna put a few tack welds on it to be sure it stays put, then I gotta get the rally car running again and put it in.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (Jetta2dr)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
ya gunna do a before and after for us?








I think we need a few more opinions of well done mods with specifics on replicatable adjustment methods, not just "eyeballing"
I shoulda done some cam measurements @ 0.05" and not just open .1mm and 1mm. but lobe separation is the same
so what is your lobe separation?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

I'm checking out advancing the exhaust cam mod a little more. the way I have it set up now blows by my 7200 soft rev limt into my 7500 hard cut. my tach was reading 6800 at the cis-e rev limit, the tach reads 7000rpm when megasquirt reads 7500rpm
if I advance it a little I can bring the torque on sooner. so along with strong high end, it'll make wheel spin more of a problem








right now I set em with stock overlap, lobe center 5*retarded from stock because of the greater duration. and it puts the overlap the same as stock. should be a no hassle emissions pass
my first cam I "messed up" turns out is 3.3* retarded from the stock cam. I wrote about this cam earlier. now that I have an accurate tach and can "see" what the cam does to airflow a little better, I'll toss it in again and do another review. wit hwhere it feels like the power drops off at the top end.
I cut a key @ 3.6* or so the lobe is in the same position as the stock intake for a guy. I asked him to post up his impressions.


----------



## vagrant_mugen (Jun 13, 2006)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_
if I advance it a little I can bring the torque on sooner. so along with strong high end, it'll make wheel spin more of a problem










Let us know what the outcome is. id like to get one or 2 of these made up.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (vagrant_mugen)*

it'll be awhile. I'm just gunna concentrate on getting megasquirt dialed. and wait till I can barrow one of those dashtop acclerometer /hp thingies to at least have some tangable onfo on the difference. last time I ran the more advanced cam, I may have not had the ignition timing the same (I had a rocco on cis-e, you cant see the timing hole worth a crap). now I have a nice open view of my timing hole








anyone who has one on of those dash accelerameters, Ill mod their cam for free to whichever is better for their application if they let me barrow it


----------



## algirdas (Mar 26, 2007)

*Re: (weeblebiker)dash accelerometer and exh cam mod*

I've got a G-tech that I don't use anymore and I want
to do the exhaust cam mod to my '91 GLI. 
I should be getting the cam this week. Since I live in
Cincinnati I could drive over and bring the exhaust
cam, the G-tech and maybe work a permanent trade.
I'd also like to know more about your Megasquirt
install. CIS/Motronic has been good so far,on my Jetta
but I think MS would be fun to do and get more
power/better mileage. 
Your 1.8T aeb fuel rail, brilliant!


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (weeblebiker)dash accelerometer and exh cam mod (algirdas)*

Cool, let's work sumthin out. you on swov? 
pm sent


----------



## Armagon (Apr 19, 2004)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

First time installing cams on a 16v and especially with the double exhaust cam modification done.
Here's how it looks, the head is not installed yet so the timing hasn't been done.








the intake cam dot is not lined up 90* like it should








nether the exhaust cam, but once i will installe the timing belt and time the engine properly, i have the feeling they'll be on their marks.
Is that how every body does it ?
Waiting for your feedbacks to proceed. I'll still install the head tomorow and see if when i time it, everything is gonna go back to normal.
loot at that
















Thanks


----------



## Armagon (Apr 19, 2004)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Armagon)*

problem solved


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Armagon)*

hope you got it. I just whipped out some cams and checked. I told you wrong in the im's. you wanna be @ 7 teeth for the 3.6* key.
the "normal" exhaust cam mod is @ 6 teeth.


----------



## Armagon (Apr 19, 2004)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

The picture is not clear but you can see on which side I put the key.
When i timed the cams, the original exhaust cam went to where it is supposed to go with the dot facing the edge of the head and the new intake cam's dot went 90 degrees up from the original position of the original intake cam.
Am i right or is there something i missed somewhere ?








It is hard to see but the keyway sticks on the upper side.
I found that by placing the keyway like that, it would turn the cam to make it get closer from the original intake cam position at TDC.



_Modified by Armagon at 1:08 AM 4-3-2007_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Armagon)*

I think your key orientation is correct, but you tooth offset is wrong (because I told you wrong in th im's). I should not have responded untill I got the cams out and checked. 
For everyone else reading this Armaagon has the cam set with the lobe center in the same place as the stock intake which is 5* different than what I normally set the cam at, which is better reached by retarding 3.6* from 7 teeth not advancing from 6 teeth. I just got the direction from 6 teeth wrong when we were im'ing.


----------



## Armagon (Apr 19, 2004)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

so you'Re saying that i'm in the stock intake cam position ?
I'think i'm gonna stay like that, i don't want to







anymore. 
My installation was based on that,








And if I wanted to put it in the postion you're talking about What would i have to do to put it there ? turn it 1 tooth clockwise or 1 tooth counter clockwise ? And from there, would i have to turn my keyway on its other side ?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Armagon)*

i'm looking at a both cams right now.
from the distributor side. the cams rotate counterclockwise in the motor from this prospective.
to adjust the cam 3.6* you will need to put the key in with the cut part on the right side looking at it from the distributor end. this will rotate the gear counterclockwise relative to the cam/ rotate the cam cockwise relative to the gear. the new timing mark will be 7 teeth clockwise from the origenal mark.

that diagram must be from the timing belt end since it shows rotation clockwise. the timing marks are also wrong. it is defenitly 7 not 5



_Modified by weeblebiker at 1:55 AM 4-4-2007_


----------



## Armagon (Apr 19, 2004)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

here is what to do if you want to be WRONG !!!








This what you should NOT do, the key way should be on the other side


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Armagon)*

yup.
but hey you cought it before getting it all together and had a car that ran like crap and took a couple days going through everything you did before you figured it out http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
and you didn't weld the gear on yet so it's all good http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
and everyone reading this please remember Armagon is going for retarding 3.6* (centering the lobe with the stock lobe). which needs the cam/ gear *rotated the opposite direction* from what is needed for retarding the cam 8.6* (setting the valve open the same as the stock intake) remember the 14.4 per tooth thing 14.4-8.6=5.8* and 6 teeth
*so if you mod like I suggest, your gear will look like this*


_Modified by weeblebiker at 3:25 AM 6-1-2007_


----------



## Armagon (Apr 19, 2004)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Here's what the RIGHT position look like http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 








Don't do that at home kids, always use a press tool to take the gear in and out unless you wanna break you gear and cry.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Armagon)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Armagon (Apr 19, 2004)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Armagon)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Armagon* »_so you'Re saying that i'm in the stock intake cam position ?
I'think i'm gonna stay like that, i don't want to







anymore. 
My installation was based on that,








And if I wanted to put it in the postion you're talking about What would i have to do to put it there ? turn it 1 tooth clockwise or 1 tooth counter clockwise ? And from there, would i have to turn my keyway on its other side ?


that drawing is totally wrong !!! Or it is only backward.... in any case don't rely on that to do your exhaust modification







It will synchronise your 2 exhaust cams to open intake and exhaust valve almost at the same time


----------



## Armagon (Apr 19, 2004)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_i'm looking at a both cams right now.
from the distributor side. the cams rotate counterclockwise in the motor from this prospective.
to adjust the cam 3.6* you will need to put the key in with the cut part on the right side looking at it from the distributor end. this will rotate the gear counterclockwise relative to the cam/ rotate the cam cockwise relative to the gear. the new timing mark will be 7 teeth clockwise from the origenal mark.

that diagram must be from the timing belt end since it shows rotation clockwise. the timing marks are also wrong. it is defenitly 7 not 5
_Modified by weeblebiker at 1:55 AM 4-4-2007_

so the old timing mark will pointing 90* straight downward if i understand everyting clearly...
I'll post some pics tomorrow of my progress.


----------



## vagrant_mugen (Jun 13, 2006)

weeblebiker, can you make a set to have no overlap for a boosted car? ive got cams just LMK.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (vagrant_mugen)*

yes but,
using an exhaust cam as an intake, your intake valves will be open even further past piston bottom dead center. your intake valves will be open as the pistons are moving back up, trying to compress. for na it's not an issue since the intake charge velocity is still filling the vacuum left by the piston moving down, for low boost it may be ok bucause there probably enough pressure drop in the cylinder that it will not equelize before the valves close. someone dyno'd a 16vg60 stock cam vs. exhaust cam and got an improvement. (third hand info so no numbers given)
I think for high boost, you may end up having the valves open after the pressure equelizes and actually get a pressure wave coming back up the intake manifold before the valves close.
I may be talking out my ass though, it's not like I have years of tuning experience and hours of dyno time to base this stuff on. just a basic understanding of cam theory, interpretaton of the cam vs. crank movement charts floating around and looking at the profile #'s for different "applications" for vw 16v's offered by aftermarket cam companies. I haven't seen any 270+ duration cams listed for turbo use anywhere, maybe I missed those.
For high boost I'd use a stock intake cam and remove the overlap. but even the stock intake duration will keep the valves open into the compression stroke, but not so far the piston really picks up acceleration before the valve closes.
I wonder if removing the overlap really increases efficiency or if it's just one of those forum urban legands. 
either way, you still need to run an adjustable timing sprocket to get the exhaust close/intake open point back piston tdc.
but yah I can work out any amount of overlap and help you figure timing the cams afterward. but I won't garentee any hp increases for high boost applications. I just too ingorant on that application still










_Modified by weeblebiker at 2:37 PM 4-7-2007_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Armagon)*

no the old mark will still be up, but it will be 2 teeth further counter clockwise from the new mark. than you had in the pic. looking from the distributor side. 
the morei look at the diagrams the more they are correct, just using a completely different reference point than I'm using. and the cams shown it the diagrams are not intake / exhaust pairs. that's where I was getting confused also. 
I thought I posted a reply before but my 15 month old boy likes typing at the same time I am and must of buggard it before I posted.


_Modified by weeblebiker at 4:19 AM 4-7-2007_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

just got the g-tech from Algirdas,
I have a digital camera in my possesion that will take pics that are not fuzzy as hell,
Algirdas is talking about doing a before and after dyno on chipped motronic. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
We may finally get some concrete info here soon with pics and all










really I've tryed to take pics before but non turned out good enough to see anything.
Thanks for the bathroom literature Algirdas! (not porn ya sicko!







)


----------



## Armagon (Apr 19, 2004)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

when i reinstalled the cam gear to turn the keyway around, i installed it backward







That i why i though the drawing was backward and everything became wrong








I installed it on its good side and now it looks good and will work great








*look at the 2 gears, they're not installed the same way*








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif *here's a good gob done* http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 










_Modified by Armagon at 2:08 AM 4-18-2007_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Armagon)*

is that 7 teeth?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

whoa!!!!
did you completely grind off the timing slot flange??????
that bearing cap between the timing gear and the flange or "hat" at the cam end is what controls the sideways "thrust" movement on the cam. 
*that's why both stock intake and exhaust cams have the flange. *
grinding the flange off will let the cam drift back till the lobe sides will rub the sides of the bearing caps.
I think ya have a paperwieght there


----------



## Armagon (Apr 19, 2004)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

are you f*cking serious ?
i removed it because the cam wouldn't turn with it on (because i installed the gear backward







)
Do you think it will run for like... 4 months or approximattely 10 000 km without breaking anything ? past that, i may change the whole engine and put a turbo on it with a stock intake cam.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Armagon)*

no. don't do it. run the stock cam if you have to
First, I like your enthusiasm and apreciate ya posting the pics up for people (Iknow, I still need to post pics, but really, with 3 kids, I'm doing good to find time just to play with my car). I really want your project to go well and perform how you want it to.
Don't take this wrong, but ya really need to slow down, look and think things through more. almost everypart of a car is designed the way it is for a reason. 
if things don't fit together that should, the absolute last thing you do is grind, unless you rule out every thing else, twice and get a few second opinions.
take this whole thing as a learning experience (and a cheap one at that







)on modding your car and be glad you have had the lesson before you fired up this engine and especially before ya go blowing air into the motor and melt things.
Rember, if ya can't find another cam to mod up, you can always slap the stock cam back in for now. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I'll start writing up an official how-to I have a few pics now I can edit. I should have it done in the next 2 weekends. somebody that has the means may need to host the pics, I don't want to be relinking the pics to photobucket every time someone looks at the thread. 
maybe I can talk Broke or scirocco16v.org into hosting em




_Modified by weeblebiker at 11:43 PM 4-18-2007_


----------



## Armagon (Apr 19, 2004)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

good news, http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
i have a third 16v spare head.
I might use it but i will still need it for the engine i'm building up... so i will try to find a fourth exhaust camshaft this fall








It still pisses me off that i have to undo my cams again and make another camshaft








isn't a good machine shop able to weld and machine something that would work great on the end of my camshaft ?


_Modified by Armagon at 12:37 PM 4-19-2007_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Armagon)*

not worth it @ $65-75/Hr. just mod another


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

read this and look at the pics, these are pics @ 112*lsa
because I'm lazy and need to go out and swap my ignition distributor, I'm pasting this pm re-hash for all








weeblebiker (2:17 AM 6-7-2007): hehe
k, first, what's your red line?
second, have you looked at the pics and understand how I'm orienting and referencing the cams?
remeber looking at the pics, the cams are spinning counterclockwise advance is counterclockwise, retard is clockwise
rotating the gear 3.6*counter clockwise (which is rotating the cam clockwise or retarding) puts the cam in phase with the intake cam. the stock cam set has a lobe separation of 107* I origenally was shooting for a lobe separation of 112* 3.6* +(112-107)= 8.6* counterclockwise
or 14.4* (tooth seperation angle) - 8.6*= 5.8* clockwise and found this pulled up to my redline 7500 rev limit. 
on further research, I found most cam sets of this duration put the lobe separation @ 110*
rotating the cam 3.6*+3*= 6.6* counterclockwise. this should be pretty damn near best for street and stock rev limit, (but will increase overlap and may effect emissions). for you, cutting a new keyway, all you need to do is take this angle offset and add multiples of 14.4* to put the keyway where you want.
and yes decking it will slightly retard the timing, might but not much. to be noticable
weeblebiker (2:20 AM 6-7-2007): as for the new timing mark, set the cam on the counter with the lobes closest to the gear straight up, count 3 teeth up the bottom left and mark the tooth, just like the intake cam your looking at next to it, remeber the intake cam is the reference. when your done the lobe center on the new cam should be slightly clockwise of the intake lobe center

pics. enjoy








note the new loba position slightly retarded from the intake lobe
















the gear will look like this on the cam if you do like I suggest









_Modified by weeblebiker at 3:29 AM 6-1-2007_

_Modified by weeblebiker at 3:34 AM 6-1-2007_


_Modified by weeblebiker at 1:47 AM 5-20-2008_


----------



## Armagon (Apr 19, 2004)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

why are the teeth long on your cam gear ? is that from a 1.8 ?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Armagon)*

I've seen the sharp tooth gears in three 1.8L heads and the rounded tooth gears from 2L heads. the rounded gears are easier to time since you can skip the chain on the gear.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

because I'm lazy and need to go out and swap my ignition distributor, I'm pasting this pm re-hash for all








weeblebiker (2:17 AM 6-7-2007): hehe
k, first, what's your red line?
second, have you looked at the pics and understand how I'm orienting and referencing the cams?
remeber looking at the pics, the cams are spinning counterclockwise advance is counterclockwise, retard is clockwise
rotating the gear 3.6*counter clockwise (which is rotating the cam clockwise or retarding) puts the cam in phase with the intake cam. the stock cam set has a lobe separation of 107* I origenally was shooting for a lobe separation of 112* 3.6* +(112-107)= 8.6* counterclockwise
or 14.4* (tooth seperation angle) - 8.6*= 5.8* clockwise and found this pulled up to my redline 7500 rev limit. 
on further research, I found most cam sets of this duration put the lobe separation @ 110*
rotating the cam 3.6*+3*= 6.6* counterclockwise. this should be pretty damn near best for street and stock rev limit, (but will increase overlap and may effect emissions). for you, cutting a new keyway, all you need to do is take this angle offset and add multiples of 14.4* to put the keyway where you want.
and yes decking it will slightly retard the timing, might but not much. to be noticable
weeblebiker (2:20 AM 6-7-2007): as for the new timing mark, set the cam on the counter with the lobes closest to the gear straight up, count 3 teeth up the bottom left and mark the tooth, just like the intake cam your looking at next to it, remeber the intake cam is the reference. when your done the lobe center on the new cam should be slightly clockwise of the intake lobe center
_Modified by weeblebiker at 2:26 PM 6-7-2007_


_Modified by weeblebiker at 2:28 PM 6-7-2007_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

btw 6.6* is pretty much the 7* retarded that is/was the board legend to set the modded cam correctly. 
I kinda feel like I'm doing geometry proofs again








differences between my more overlapped and my 112 LSA cam indicate that the best positioning is 110*. 
more than 4* advance on my 112*lsa cam and I start having the same starting and idling issues I had on my more overlapped cam on my megasquirt. idle map was mid 30's. when I retarded it back to around 2* and my car start right up and idles strong and has an idle map of 27kpa. pointing to 110* over 112 and not less than 109* LSA


----------



## terrible-one (Jul 20, 2005)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

I did this in my 9a in my jetta followed all the instruction that weeblebiker sujested and the thing pulls like a damn champ all the way to stock rev limiter, much longer power band then before.
Very cheap effective mod cost me 20$ to get the keeyway cut with a EDM machine thats about it, all in all i think bang for the buck this is THE cheapest performance mod for a 16v that you will actually feel the differance when you step on that lil pedal on the right.
I wouldn't own a 16v ever again without having dual exhaust cams in it.been running it in the same engin for about 40k km's now with no ill effects what so ever.
Alot of respect and apreciation goes to weeblebiker for all the trouble he has gone threw to get all this info down to a science http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif , cheers buddy!










_Modified by terrible-one at 4:31 AM 4-20-2008_


----------



## knobbylips (Dec 15, 2005)

thanks for the update terrible-
can you give us lurkers the details of your install, car and usage?


----------



## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (knobbylips)*

I just installed the modded exhaust cam in our 80 16V rocco auto-x'er. It is a great mod! The power doesn't fall off as it did prior to the mod. I expect this to only get better as we still have the stock exhaust mani w/ dp. If/when we swap cams, they'll be much bigger than this, but for the cost of this mod and those other cams, this is far away the best bang for the buck! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Much thanks to weeblebiker for sharing this hard earned knowledge.








And since he mentioned it in the below post, weeblebiker did the mod work on the cam for me, and does excellent work BTW. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 



_Modified by ps2375 at 9:55 PM 5-19-2008_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (ps2375)*

just did a little editing on the thread first post.
so hey, now that there are a few third party references, send me your cams for modding, I need to pay for exhaust work caused by my motor being ripped from the mounts


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

don't send me cams like this


----------



## G60syncro (Feb 7, 2001)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

Why not... they're made of metal!! Duh!








Some people need to get a clue haha!!


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

guy asked if I thought he could file an insurance claim against usps


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (Armagon)*

I have this cam setup and done rebuilding the head. I need to close everything tomorrow morning. 
I have this setup on a 2l9a bottom end and 1.8L head. Engine as a high compression around 11.5:1 My intake cam is 6 and a half teeth from the original timing point. So it is retarded compared to the exhaust cam. Does this sound right ? Or is it off a teeth ? 
I would really appreciate any help !


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (madonion)*

looking from the chan gear side which way did you rotate it 6 1/2 teeth?
take the cam out of the head, set it on a counter with the lobes closest to the chain gear straight up, it will be sitting on 2 teeth on the counter. the lobe center should be just everslightly but seen with a close eye to the right of the tooth center in front of it. count three teeth clockwise from the left too the cam is resting on. mark this tooth with your new cam timing mark. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
err, like in the pics a few posts up














http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

they are exactly like this:

















_Modified by madonion at 4:31 PM 8-18-2008_


_Modified by madonion at 4:51 PM 8-18-2008_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (madonion)*

do exactly like I pictured to see if you actually got the lobes phased correctly and find the correct tooth to mark








when they are done right, they look like stock cams mechanically timed. if yours do not, you did something wrong http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

I'm pretty sure I got it right, I never saw how stock cams looked all I can say is that intake cams looks slightly retarded vs exhaust cam. there not symmetrical I believe. Does anyone have a pictures of the cams lobs how they should lineup up in the head when timed.


_Modified by madonion at 5:58 PM 8-18-2008_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (madonion)*

when installed at tdc they are even/symetric. either you are a tooth off or you have an adjustable timing belt gear not set @ 0*


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

I don't have an adjustable timing belt gear. What would be the effect of being retarded on the intake side ? 
If they have to be even then I'm off a teeth on the intake.
so to make things clear is it 6 teeth counting the timing mark teeth or excluding the timing mark teeth.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (madonion)*

I can not tell you that for sure without seeing the cam.
look at the pictures on the first post.
I cannot make it more clear than the pictures


----------



## JonnyPhenomenon (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

OK before anyone tells me to go search, I assure you I tried a few searches and skimmed through this entire thread without seeing what Im about to ask.
here it is:
why do this mod over a euro intake cam?
it seems like an awful lot of work, and a high likelyhood of getting it screwed up.. is it because of the cost? I think the euro one goes for 100$. is it possible that this modified one performs even better?
p.s. high praises to the guys who have spent the time and energy into figuring this mod out.



_Modified by JonnyPhenomenon at 11:41 AM 8-31-2008_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (JonnyPhenomenon)*

stock intake has 195 duration and .354" lift
euro cam has 207 duration and .378" lift 
exhaust cam has 215 duration and .402" lift
the exhaust cam phased correctly should yeild a bigger intake charge than the euro cam, if the intake system and exhaust flows enough to not cause a restriction.
I believe I linked to this in the first couple posts
http://techtonicstuning.com/camsspecs.asp
this mod yeilds a cam set pretty close to the TT Street set without the $380 price tag.
_Modified by weeblebiker at 1:03 AM 9-1-2008_

_Modified by weeblebiker at 1:07 AM 9-1-2008_


_Modified by weeblebiker at 12:14 PM 9-1-2008_


----------



## Justin 123 (Apr 11, 2005)

*FV-QR*

Pretty psyched for getting mine. Then going standalone when the car goes in the garage for the winter. Yessssss


----------



## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (JonnyPhenomenon)*

We've had the Exhaust cam mod, (cam modded by weeblebiker) on a 1.8l motor, w/ a stock exhaust mani and a tt dp. It made a noticable diff at the auto-x's(only place car is driven). This past week we put on a tt 4to1 race header, and that really let the motor breath!







At the hillclimb this weekend at 6000+ feet the motor pulled nicely to 7K rpm.
This is a mod that will serve very well until you and/or the motor are ready for a bigger set of cams and it does well on CIS and works with the stock springs. We'll be keeping this cam setup until the stageIII head is installed or maybe longer... who knows.
And if you can or have pulled/swapped cams before, this is as easy as that to do. You can even do it w/o removing the exhaust cam compleely from the head. You only have to loosen the caps on it to allow the intake cam to come out, and that means you only have to release tension on the timing belt also(doesn't have to be removed, unless you need to change it). http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by ps2375 at 10:47 PM 8-31-2008_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Justin 123)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Justin 123* »_Pretty psyched for getting mine. Then going standalone when the car goes in the garage for the winter. Yessssss

went out wed. you should havde it Tues. give it a good cleaning before you drop it in. glad to read I'm not the only one that is getting psyched about winter projects


----------



## Justin 123 (Apr 11, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*

Totally man. I have a decent amount planned for the winter since it's not going to be driven, but the cam is going in asap. That can't wait.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Justin 123)*

post up what you think of it when you get it in, maybe do a little spirited driving before and after for comparison?


----------



## Justin 123 (Apr 11, 2005)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*

Will do sir!!!


----------



## elRey (May 15, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*

weeblebiker, is an adjustable timing belt gear needed in addition to the cam after you modify it?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (elRey)*

no.


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## elRey (May 15, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_no. 


http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
And all you need sent is one exhaust cam?
If so, are you available?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (elRey)*

yup, still doing it for people. pm me


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*

My car doesn't pull at all i suspect it could be that my timing on the intake cam could be wrong would it do that if the intake cam was too advanced ? what kind of ignition timing would you run with this setup. ?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (madonion)*

yes if it is off a tooth or the timing belt is off a tooth will toast the power. ignition timing won't change much. don't mess with ignition timing without a wideband o2 and egt gauge or will do it on a dyno.


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## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*

I have a wideband but cant plug it in the bung I just got welded on they have put the screw way to tight or stripped it. I'll try to post picture of how cam are setup.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*

Is this one I did?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*

for ignition timing messing you really need a egt gauge. you can build one for under $50.


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## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*

http://img353.imageshack.us/im...1.jpg
http://img82.imageshack.us/img...9.jpg
http://img508.imageshack.us/im...6.jpg
My setup Is a 9a, with 1.8 extremely shaved head, exhaust cam mod, Digi 1 sns.
Tell me what you think does this look right. my car feels like it has 50-60 hp.
What should I expect if I'd move intake cam 1 tooth counterclockwise ?
I'm pulling around [email protected] at idle and It always want to stall at a stop sign or a light.




_Modified by madonion at 7:20 PM 10-3-2008_


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (madonion)*

I need some serious help here, I got to get this car running today.
How does shaving a head affect cam timing ? Does it advance it or retard it ?




_Modified by madonion at 6:24 AM 10-4-2008_


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (madonion)*

I took the compression numbers this morning cold/dry numbers are 

155/172/170/170
Found that #1 was low so I redid the test on #1 and ended up with 130psi ...
Wet test done
155/192/195/195
Valve not sealing correctly in #1 ? The head was rebuilt with new valves seals by a Head rebuilding shop. don't they test there work ?


_Modified by madonion at 10:42 AM 10-4-2008_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (madonion)*

the cams are not at tdc. that's all I can tell you from the pics. #1 cylinder cam lobes should be facing each mirror image other at 2 and 10 O'clock, 
you need to recheck all your timing marks
ditch the timing belt cover so you can see the timing belt marks. also dubble check tdc on the pistons by dropping a lon screwdiver or socket extenxion down #1 cylinder spark plug whole.


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*

I don't get what you are saying in the first pic I'm at TDC and the cam lobe on cylinder number 1 are symmetrical mirror like at 2 and 10 o'clock just like you say they should be.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (madonion)*

your right. I didn't look carefully. the cams are at tdc.
dop a rod down #1 piston whole and verify the piston is at tdc as well.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*

you really need to take the top timing belt cover off to see what the timing marks are doing.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*

did you check piston/valve clearance?


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*

not Yet i'm going to try 7 theet on intake cam and advance both cams 1 theet since my head is shaved alot.


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (madonion)*

It didn't work at 7 teeth on intake cam and valves didn't clear. tryed +1 thoot and -1 thoot on cam pulley and it I was getting 0 compression. So I reset everything back to 0, 6 teeth on intake cam. And magically compression on number 1 is back to i have 190 on number one and my battery is almost dead 12.06V forgot a light open inside the car last night. I'll check compression again later.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (madonion)*

dude, your gunna mess something up, slow down, timing the engine is simple but you MUST do it in the right order! 
1. make sure you have the gears on right. the print on the timing belt gear should be on the INSIDE, toward the head. the cam chain gear has a bigger seat surface face that goes to the inside than the seat face on the outside.
2.make sure the timing mark on the inside of the timing belt gear is level with the surface of the head with the valve cover off.
3. make sure the #1 intake cam lobes is a mirror of the exhaust cam lobes
4. make sure #1 piston is at tdc with a rod down through the sparkplug hole. than line up the circle dot in the flywheel with the pointer.
5. put the timing belt on and tension it.
6 hand turn the motor over 1 complete cycle (take all the spark plugs out for this)
7 check all your marks again.

do it this way and DO NOT SKIP ANYTHING.




_Modified by weeblebiker at 8:48 PM 10-5-2008_


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## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*

that's how I did it. Cam can't be exactly mirror like because intake cam is a half tooth off and i'm pretty sure you already know that. I think one of the big concern here is my extremely decked head how does it affect the timing and the modded exhaust cam.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (madonion)*

so you did not shave the key and adjust the chain gear correctly???
you just loped off the end of the exhaust cam and plopped it in???
if so I can not help you, you cannot time the motor correctly.


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*

I did not do it. somebody who built this engine for rallying did. He had it running well I even have a video of it... But when we rebuilt the head weren't careful enough and didn't check how the timing was. I noticed the intake cam was @7 teeths when we got the cam out. I closed the head with the spec found on here and then tried 7 teeths but valves didn't clear. I'm thinking i should just buy a set of 288 and a cam gears if it would clear my decked head. I've spend around 3500 putting this engine back in my car including all the accessories like braided fuel line FPR, brakets, rebuilding the head, etc, etc what's an other 400 for cams that works and having the possibility to make good power on a ITB setup later.


_Modified by madonion at 4:43 PM 10-5-2008_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (madonion)*

the exhaust cam is a good mod, but you need to do it correctly.
yank it press the gear off, shave 1.95mm off the side of the key that the gear contacts press it together and get a adjustable timing belt gear for the head to take car of the head decking issue. then set the head and block at tdc, let the adjustable cam take care of any belt alignment issues.
you will need an adjustable timing belt gear regardless because of the decked head.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*

really, do it right and see the results. I don't know if i have a really fast NA car because I drive it all the time, all I can say is the 3 16v guys that have stopped by to check my project out have been really impressed with the but dyno results and the people who have followed the directions or have had me do the mod have been happy with the performance change http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*

The weird thing is that engine as been running flawlessly few years before I bought it and it was making around 150hp at the wheels. don't know what happened or how it was setup timing wise. What kind of numbers did you get out of your 16v ? how much do you charge to do the mod ? What kind of power can of power can I expect out off 288 vs exhaust cam mod.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (madonion)*

The weird thing is that engine as been running flawlessly few years before I bought it and it was making around 150hp at the wheels. don't know what happened or how it was setup timing wise. 
I don't know either, maybe you should contact the po
What kind of numbers did you get out of your 16v ? 
I don't know I have more imprtant things to spend time and money on than dyno #'s. it's fast enough I don't spend much time with the pedal to the floor on my favorite back road routes that I know like the back of my hand.
how much do you charge to do the mod ? 
see my sig
What kind of power can of power can I expect out off 288 vs exhaust cam mod.
not sure but if you would like to do a dyno comparision, we would all apreciate it.


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*

I did contact the 2 previews owners but they didn't mess with the engine internals. I have a name on the guy who build the engine originally but he is really hard to find. I'll do a little more research and I might send you my cam.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (madonion)*

ya should just pull the cam, set it on a counter and see where the timing chain mark should be and go from there http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*

I've got my car running. Intake cam at 7theets and no advance on the cam pulley. So the intake cam is running 1/2 tooth retarded Idle is kind of rough at 900rpm and past 6000rpm it's also rough don't know why, it sounds like a VTEC and shakes a lot (I got a solid front engine mount and new rear I don't know if it could be because of that). I got 210PSi across all 4 cylinders. I got my wideband running. it's not running 100% yet. 


_Modified by madonion at 12:30 PM 10-13-2008_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: weeblebiker (rcortez13)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
ya better take a dremel and engrave those marks. the sharpie will wash off in the oil. ya don't want the timing mark to go away mid install








a small tach weld on the back side will hold it. 
once your in the ball park of correct timing, you can use an adjustable timing belt gear to try out intake cam advance/retard adjustments sincethe exhaust cam adjusting does not effect power as much.


_Modified by weeblebiker at 12:17 PM 10-28-2008_


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: weeblebiker (rcortez13)*

set the cam on a counter with the lobes closest to the teeth straight up. the lobe center should be just slightly to the right of the tooth pointing straight up looking at the chain gear end. count three teeth *clockwise* from the left tooth resting on the counter and mark that tooth. like in the pics I posted. you are mimicing the intake cam
Sorry, I will not say mark at 5 or 6 or 7 teeth without holding the cam in my hand and doing this test myself. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
oops! I typed "counter" in front of the clockwise, thats what I get for rushing the answer. sorry


_Modified by weeblebiker at 3:50 PM 10-29-2008_


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: weeblebiker (weeblebiker)*

When doing this mod will both cams have to be perfectly symmetrical to each other at TDC or at some setting it plausible to have intake cam slightly retarded. The way I'm setup, at 7.5 teeth intake cam is retarded few degrees and both cams are retarded a little because of the head shaving. I think I have quite a bit of overlap with this setting. I'm wondering if I should keep it like this, mod the cam key or get an adjustable timing gears and phase the 2 cams perfectly symmetrical at TDC. 
Idle sucks even using fuel injection (Digi 1) but it's still manageable. And it feels a little underpowered maybe power kicks in too late in the rpm range or the intake cam is retarded too much. compression is arround 210PSI accross all 4.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsPKI_lpg3w
That's a video of the engine when it was running in an other car before the head was rebuilt and engine swapped in my digi 1 corrado. It was running on monotronic at that time.




_Modified by madonion at 7:57 PM 10-29-2008_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: weeblebiker (madonion)*

I'm on hietus the next week for family med issues, I may be able to think about your Q in the next couple days.


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: weeblebiker (weeblebiker)*

Mod 16V Ex as In / none/.402"/215/215/106/33.5/1.5/1.5/33.5/3/0/Suggested; Retard Int sprock 106 deg = 7.5 teeth - 2 deg adv; Rtd Pulley 1 cam deg 
That would be how my cam are setup, except I don't have the -2deg advance on intake cam as suggested and i'm wondering how would this affect performance it looks like the engine doesnt behave like it should at high rpm it could be something else tho

Both cam could be retarded more than 1* because of severe head decking.
I could also try this if head decking retards timing enough.
Mod 16V Ex as In .402" 215 215 100.8 28.4 6.8 6.6 28.2 13.4 0.1 7.0 teeth clockwise (flip in. sprocket); rtd pulley 5.5 cam deg=1t-1.4; good top end, poor idle


_Modified by madonion at 8:10 PM 11-1-2008_


----------



## hadaki (Sep 8, 2004)

*Re: weeblebiker (madonion)*

I just complete my mod.
KR port & polish head,9A block and exhaust 4,2,1.
Using a Digi II system, i did not feel any difference compare with a euro intake cam.
Power not instance,only 3000rpm up to 6000rpm but I still feel my euro cam better and more respone.


----------



## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: weeblebiker (hadaki)*

when was the last time your butt dyno was calibrated? I guess you put the Euro cam back in.


----------



## hadaki (Sep 8, 2004)

*Re: weeblebiker (ps2375)*

Thank you,
I think so. coz oil tempreture shot up to 110`C at idle.


----------



## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: weeblebiker (hadaki)*

Are you sure you have it timed correctly? I wouldn't expectthe oil temp to do that.


----------



## hadaki (Sep 8, 2004)

*Re: weeblebiker (ps2375)*

I belive my timing is correct, coz the car idle perfect at 800rpm.
Any way to comfirm the timing and any body have a same set up can show the dyno chart?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: weeblebiker (hadaki)*

your a tooth advanced on your timing belt. that's what shooting your temps up and why you don't notice a power increase.


_Modified by weeblebiker at 2:01 PM 11-17-2008_


----------



## hadaki (Sep 8, 2004)

*Re: weeblebiker (weeblebiker)*

I agree your answer. 
I have a ajustable cam pulley. i had advance the pulley 3*.
Refering to the power down, is that because i'm running on 8V 1.8L DIGIFANT system?
Power gain only after 3000rpm. This power band not up to my expectation.








I did check on spark plug look like running rich.
Any idea about this?









_Modified by hadaki at 7:06 AM 11-17-2008_


_Modified by hadaki at 5:06 PM 11-18-2008_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: weeblebiker (hadaki)*

set the adj gear back to 0*
the increased cam lobe duration "advances" intake opening already.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: weeblebiker (weeblebiker)*

what you are doing and do not want to do is advancing your exhaust valve opening before bottom dead center, pushing gas that is still combusting through the valves, which increases head temps, increasing oil temps.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: weeblebiker (weeblebiker)*

maybe, just guessing anyway.


----------



## hadaki (Sep 8, 2004)

*Re: weeblebiker (weeblebiker)*

Wil consider your point and go back to o*c.
Hope getting better.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: weeblebiker (hadaki)*

really though check your timing belt also. I'm guessing because I'm not looking at your setup.
but I'm basing my guess on what happened on my rocco when I ran it with a timing belt 1 (maybe 2) teeth advanced accidentaly. it lacked power and my egt and oil temps shot up.


----------



## hadaki (Sep 8, 2004)

*Re: weeblebiker (weeblebiker)*

Wil remove the cover today, double check the timing belt again.
Must solve it out by this week, coz Sepang F1 track day coming soon this month end.








Thank's


----------



## hadaki (Sep 8, 2004)

*Re: weeblebiker (hadaki)*

Retard 1.5* from the cam pulley.
Try this morning at Sepang F1 track car pull up to 6000rpm than becaome flat no more power.








Advise please.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: weeblebiker (hadaki)*

did you verify timing belt timing?
you may need to pull the intake cam and verify correct timing mark position and then verify inter cam timing.
the power falling off @ 6k rpm indicates the intake is advanced too much.



_Modified by weeblebiker at 11:04 PM 11-30-2008_


----------



## hadaki (Sep 8, 2004)

Start this morning, notice running 3 cylinders.
One of the injector dead.
Dose it couse power falling at 6k rpm?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (hadaki)*

someone help with this.


----------



## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (hadaki)*


_Quote, originally posted by *hadaki* »_Start this morning, notice running 3 cylinders.
One of the injector dead.
Dose it couse power falling at 6k rpm?
Are you asking if the motor is running on 3 cylinders, if that will cause power to fall off at 6k rpm? I would think power would be falling off at every rpm.


----------



## hadaki (Sep 8, 2004)

Problem solve after replace another set of injectors.
Now car pulling from 2000rpm up to 6800rpm. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Of cause not 5th gear. (020 2Y)
Replace a new tranmmission mount ( Under the gearbox)









_Modified by hadaki at 4:08 AM 12-2-2008_


_Modified by hadaki at 4:14 AM 12-2-2008_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (hadaki)*








http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
so hey hadaki, let us know what you think of the cam when you get on it with the rest of the systems running correctly










_Modified by weeblebiker at 1:12 AM 12-3-2008_


----------



## skates (Mar 30, 2007)

so your saying in laymans terms that if i followh the second picture on this thread and relocate my timing mark on a second exhaust cam and put it on the intake side of my motor it'll weild a power increase?


----------



## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (skates)*

yes, cause the exhaust cam has more lift and duration than the intake.


----------



## skates (Mar 30, 2007)

very cool, and then just set the timing up as per new timing mark and the rest of the timing marks and drive it?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (skates)*

really don't try this unless you understand how the valvetrain works in the combustion cycle and how changing perameters such as lift and duration effect engine performance. oh and advance, retard,cw and ccw.
or you can send the cam to me to modify
a cam swap should not be your first "major mod". you can screw things up and bend valves or make another system not work right unless you do it right. don't try this unless you have a bently manual for your car.
actually, if you read through the entire thread you should have a good understanding of what is going on.


_Modified by weeblebiker at 11:48 AM 12-3-2008_


----------



## RKsilver (Apr 27, 2008)

Well, okey guys, thats awsome information.
and now, i have totaly rebuild my 9A 16v and i have another 16v at the basement, i'm going to try the exhaust mod, well, my english aint so good, like i understand, this is what i have to do ?
take exhaust cam, cut the sides(how much?)
put the exhaust cam in, 
move camshaft counterclockwize by 7 teeth, set 1# tdc by marking, 
adjust cams to 1# cylinder compression stroke, 
put the timing belt on and tension it,
hand turn the motor over 1 complete cycle, check my marks again

or am i missing something ?
Tnx for advice


----------



## RKsilver (Apr 27, 2008)

is it correct, i have to turn the moded exhaust cam gear around ?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (RKsilver)*


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

it may help you to understand what this is about if you pull both the intake and exhaust cams and look at them. set them on a flat surface and look at how the lobes are oriented.


----------



## RKsilver (Apr 27, 2008)

easy, easy : )
i read the topic again, and i noticed that i leave the cam gear alone, just cut the sides, and retard the cam about 7 teeth, i mean, turn it counterclockwize ..


----------



## skates (Mar 30, 2007)

i understand how it all works and i have the bentley and this is not my first major mod, i have had cams before


----------



## RKsilver (Apr 27, 2008)

*Re: (skates)*

and i have just problems understanding the language, modding the engine is peace of cake but how do you mod if you dont understand, that's why i wanted to be sure and ask, not to mess things up.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (RKsilver)*








sorry, letting work stress come out on the boards
please im me any questions you have and I'll help ya out


_Modified by weeblebiker at 9:54 PM 12-3-2008_


----------



## hadaki (Sep 8, 2004)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

Hi, Exh cam GURU,
I had no problem with the performance now i belive the timing is correct and hopefully it's reliable.








One more question, you have any good chips to recommend for my DIGI II system so it can complied with my mod?
After come back from the track one of my bottom mount broken.
New mount from Autohaus 171399151B.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (hadaki)*

I'm not to up on rechipping. something that has fuel and timing tables up to 7,500-8,000 would let you shift later. the cams seems to make good acceleration up to 8k rpm in my 2L 16v'd rocco. only did it twice though, I have a stock valve train. my rev limit is set @ 7,500 now, which is high enough for how I drive it.
sorry to here about the mount, better a mount snapping than an internal


----------



## hadaki (Sep 8, 2004)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

Wow! 7500rpm what system did you used?
I use to be K-jet before that can rev up to 7000rpm no problem.
Regreted after swap it to DIGI II.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (hadaki)*

megasquirt


----------



## RKsilver (Apr 27, 2008)

okei, timing question..
http://www.rksilver.planet.ee/...1.JPG
is this currect ?


----------



## hadaki (Sep 8, 2004)

*Re: (RKsilver)*

Yes, you are right.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (hadaki)*

looks right if you did the key right


----------



## hadaki (Sep 8, 2004)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

Bro,
Any reason why 9a/ABF cam gear sporkect without that key lock?
KR/PL cam gear sporkect come with key lock.


----------



## RKsilver (Apr 27, 2008)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

i did not make the key yet,
i was just curious about the timing question, noh, u told in IM how much i had to shave the key and in IM there is no history like i see how much was it ?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (RKsilver)*

it's 1.97(ish)mm off the side of the key that contacts the gear.
reread the first post on the first page.
and the 8th post and grab your calculator. 


_Modified by weeblebiker at 6:24 PM 12-6-2008_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

I have 1 modded exhaust cam for sale from my secondary motor for sale. 110* lsa 
$107 shipped in the 48
I need funds for the turbo project


----------



## slvrarrow (Dec 19, 2002)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

Probably one of the most informative and simultaneously confusing posts of all time me personally I believe in this weeblebiker dude, but then I know nothing so is that even a compliment...







Idunno? I've got one of these cams and will be attempting this weekend but I feel much more confident in this endeavor based on this post... I expcest you all at my beck and call in case i get into some "ish"...


----------



## CwazyWabbit (Mar 22, 2008)

I just installed modified ex. cam in my 1.8 16V, I counted 6 teeth clockwise from original mark and placed new mark. The thing runs awesome, nice smooth idle and power through the whole RPM range. I love it, now I just want to find some rice to burn.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (CwazyWabbit)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








as for the confusion,, this thread is really a start to finish rambling of me figuring out sub-basic cam timing and design theory using the "exhaust cam mod" and verifying the exhuast cam urban legand with hard data. It was confusing enough to work it out in my own head so I'm sure its a nightmare reading it








but I've had enough second party varification to know I got it right http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
so hey, if anyone has more cash than time to do this, buy my extra cam so I can buy more parts for my current project: turbocharging stock high compression 2L16v on E85,,,,,very little info on this










_Modified by weeblebiker at 2:28 AM 1-10-2009_


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

what kind of compression numbers are you guys seeing on a compression test with the exhaust cam ? and what kind of gas are you using ? After you shave the the key do you have to put something behind the loose end of the sprocket like a weld or something.
What would be the total duration once modified since Duration on this thread is duration @ .050 lift. ?


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_it's 1.97(ish)mm off the side of the key that contacts the gear.

Is that for 110LSA ?


_Modified by madonion at 12:53 PM 1-10-2009_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (madonion)*

intake duration is the same as the exhaust duration. techtonicstuning has the stock cams listed and this info is listed in the first post of this thread. I don't keep this info in my head anymore. if you set the cam @ 110 the way i describe in the first post, the gear is against the key in normal roatation, not that it matters too much, stock abf cams don't even have keys, just press fitted on. so the key is used primarilly as a locator. the cams I [email protected] 112 lsa had the gap on the rotation side, so I filled the cavity with solder, later I filled the cavity with epoxy as I became concerned with heating the gear and potentially decarborizing and reducing the surface hardness.

my motor showed 195 across all 4 cylinders on my last compression test.


_Modified by weeblebiker at 5:19 AM 1-11-2009_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

I did have a crank gear come loose and mashed all my intake valves with an exhaust cam in, loosing the timing belt and mashing valves did not do anything to the cam.


----------



## CwazyWabbit (Mar 22, 2008)

I didn't mod my key, wonder how much of a difference it really makes. I know in go cart racing they have offset keys (to alter ignition timing) I wonder if they would fit or could be moded to fit.


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: (CwazyWabbit)*

After reading this Post again this evening I concluded that since my head is decked and I'm probably running 3Cam° retarded. My Intake cam set @7.5 Theets without the offset key I've been running an LSA of around 117°. No wonder my why power band sucks.
I still don't understand how the guy before me ran the same engine like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsPKI_lpg3w without the offset key and without an adjustable pulley. I had new valves seals installed before we put that engine in my car and we were not cautious enough to check how it was timed before.
Only way I see to get things right would be to do the actual mod @110° LSA using an offset key an adjustable pulley. Any Idea how this engine ran that good without the offset key and adjustable timing belt pulley. That's what confused me for the past 6 months.
The car is not daily driven and will probably see 7200-7500rpm would 110LSA be ok ?



_Modified by madonion at 7:45 PM 1-12-2009_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (madonion)*

the po probably was running a tooth off on the timing belt to get the intake cam in a better position at the detriment of the exhaust cam position.
yah with a adjustable timing belt pully would be best to get the cam timing dead on.
retarding the intake cam a couple degrees may be a good idea to get max #'s up by the rev limit. but I'd wouldn't do that till you get some dyno#'s to see what the torque and hp bands are doing. then make a decison on low end lose for high end gain.


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

ok Thx that really helping out, ! 
One tooth off on the external cam pulley is 4.01° right ?
If decked head cause timing to be retarded 3° And that I advance external pulley 4.01°
I could set the intake cam @6.5theeths from original mark( not using an offset key).
Exhaust valve would open 1° earlier and intake cam would be retarded 3.7° compared to your 110LSA cam.
My cam would be 105.3°LSA and I would have a less overlap. Would having the cam running like this be ok ? Am I right on the external pulley 1 teeth being 4° ? I might try that before going any further.



_Modified by madonion at 9:42 AM 1-14-2009_


----------



## CwazyWabbit (Mar 22, 2008)

How can decking the head change timing? I know it will change comression, but not mechanical timing. As for setting mine one tooth off, no I didn't. Set it to factory markings, modded cam six teeth clockwise from original mark. Great power I drove in the rain last night and had to be careful with the throttle she would start spinning.


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: (CwazyWabbit)*

It's does retard timing...When you shave the head, you are reducing the timing belt distance from cam gear to crank gear.
First of all you cant say you are at 6teeth if you didn't use an offset key your always a half teeth off forced by the chain... Then putting the camshaft straight in without using an offset key your intake cam will be either 6-7° advanced or retarded depending if your running the cam at 6.5 or 7.5 teeth. your power band must not be too good. If i were you i'd shave the key like described in this post.



_Modified by madonion at 5:24 PM 1-14-2009_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (madonion)*

yup. 
without offsetting the gear a bit either you get great low end power at the expense of everything above 4500 rpm or you don't get power to over 6000 rpm.
and decking does retard


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (madonion)*


_Quote, originally posted by *madonion* »_ok Thx that really helping out, ! 
One tooth off on the external cam pulley is 4.01° right ?
If decked head cause timing to be retarded 3° And that I advance external pulley 4.01°
I could set the intake cam @6.5theeths from original mark( not using an offset key).
Exhaust valve would open 1° earlier and intake cam would be retarded 3.7° compared to your 110LSA cam.
My cam would be 105.3°LSA and I would have a less overlap. Would having the cam running like this be ok ? Am I right on the external pulley 1 teeth being 4° ? I might try that before going any further.

_Modified by madonion at 9:42 AM 1-14-2009_









my head is too full of ms circuit noise reduction and flyback damping for low impedance injectors right now, no room to revisit cam stuff for the moment.
360/timing belt gear teeth# will give you * per tooth.
somewhere on the first or second page I have a a post of the stock intake and exhaust lobe centers relative to the nearest gear tooth. the gear tooth is the common reference point for the modification calculations.
it sounds like your rational is right. 
I don't think decking will cause that much change in timing though. 
I think if you compare your deck amount to timing belt gear radians, than convert that # to *, my gut says you will find it is less than 3*. highschool geometry does come in handy sometimes WOOT!


_Modified by weeblebiker at 2:53 AM 1-15-2009_


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

Anyone ever tried flipping the sprocket of the intake cam like some guy explained on the 2nd page ?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (madonion)*

it does not move the teeth the right amount roughly 1/8 tooth. if you just pressed the gear off, change the key and have the cam timed right for the same amount of work.








btw I just varified by looking at 2 gears one on top of the other with the keyways matched up.


_Modified by weeblebiker at 12:29 PM 1-15-2009_


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

I got my cam out to bring them to a machine shop in order to get the sprocket off and get the key shaved. I believe the key needs to be machined 1.96mm or so to make cams 110LSA. I just want to confirm with you witch side of the key will get shaved, to make sure I don't screw up.
Facing the sprocket
The key up at 12 o'clock
Right side or left side of the key gets shaved ???
I believe the right side get shaved. One it's modded I just have to put it back @ 7teeths from original mark.
I need you to confirm this before I screw something up. No more screwing around it's getting done.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (madonion)*

the shaved part of the key is on the right side, lets the gear rotate counterclockwise. follow the tooth marking instructions on the first post to make sure everything is right.
scribe mark the tooth like with a drill bit or dremel or something ,not ink, do not try to guess how many teeth you need to move it when installing, you will be wrong most of the time.


_Modified by weeblebiker at 2:42 AM 2-2-2009_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

k,
so the last 5 pages have mostly been Q&A's. Please im me with Q&A stuff and lets keep the thread free for results posts unless your Q really has something to contribute (no more less overlap is better for boost with this greater duration cam set)http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

I now have 2 extra modded cams



_Modified by weeblebiker at 3:16 AM 2-19-2009_


----------



## guiltless (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

Just received mine and installed it last night.








Im gonig to be finishing the reasembly of the engine bay today so I should be posting a review here soon!


----------



## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (guiltless)*

ok quick question..
since this a cam thread basically..
i have a 2.0 16v just got rebuilt and started having a ton of problems.. finally fixed the problems and when i start the car. it lives for around 30 seconds then pops the airbox up..like its blowing out air not sucking it in.
then the car dies.. could this be because the shop put the cams in wrong or they are off timing??
any info would be greatly appreciated


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (veedubber_kyle)*

this is not a cam thread basically, your Q is for the 16v forum not this thread, btw it's called backfiring.
pm sent
can this thread get more diluted?


----------



## veedubber_kyle (Nov 6, 2007)

it can with you on it... and btw my question was relevant to the topic....


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (veedubber_kyle)*


_Quote, originally posted by *veedubber_kyle* »_it can with you on it... and btw my question was relevant to the topic.... 

someone help me out here. 


_Modified by weeblebiker at 5:37 AM 2-22-2009_


----------



## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: (veedubber_kyle)*


_Quote, originally posted by *veedubber_kyle* »_it can with you on it... and btw my question was relevant to the topic.... 
 Do you have a modded exhaust cam in the head? If so, did they not time the cams properly for the mod? If not, your ? is not relevant to this thread. 


_Modified by ps2375 at 11:20 PM 2-21-2009_


----------



## guiltless (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: (ps2375)*

Review time!! So I must begin by saying that I come from turbo Subaru's so my butt dyno is used to small changes making big differences. Now that being said, this is a great mod, especially for the money. It's not a big kick in the pants, but right about 3800rpm there is a noticable lift. The engine growls a bit harder a seems to rev a little nicer. 
At this point I need to open up the intake track with a euro intake manifold and a volvo bottom plate for the fuel dizzy so I can get rid of the crappy airbox. 
In the end, a big http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## polskipolak (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (guiltless)*

Here is my modded cam:








I took 2.00mm off the key to create a 110deg LSA cam. Does this look right? 
And also, where would my timing mark be? Im just confused because the pics in the first post are for 112LSA, will mine be the same?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (polskipolak)*

looks fine http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
the timing mark on the chain gear tooth method is on the first post. it is related to the intake cam lobe, not the old timing mark, so is independant of which way you choose to rotate the gear. I still set the modded cam next to a stock intake came on a counter to verify the mod is correct each time. and everyone should check their work this way, accidently having your intake cam advanced by 14.4* can do bad things to your intake valves
the decision on rotating the gear cc or cw is decided by which leaves the most key material. the midpoint is right around 110.5* but since the key slot is rotated you have a little tangent action to figure in because the slot in the key is no longer prallel to the key. in practical application, decking and belt stretch will effect cam timing more than the +/-.002" off the key/gear orientation.
I think anyways









btw people buy the 3 extra cams I have so I can finish my project!
this should be interesting to people. 2L 16v modded exhaust cam, 11:1 compression, E85, and tuning up to 15psi boost on a TDO4-14T turbo. I will dyno tune and get accurate hp and mpg on this set up.











_Modified by weeblebiker at 3:08 AM 3-27-2009_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (guiltless)*


_Quote, originally posted by *guiltless* »_Review time!! So I must begin by saying that I come from turbo Subaru's so my butt dyno is used to small changes making big differences. Now that being said, this is a great mod, especially for the money. It's not a big kick in the pants, but right about 3800rpm there is a noticable lift. The engine growls a bit harder a seems to rev a little nicer. 
At this point I need to open up the intake track with a euro intake manifold and a volvo bottom plate for the fuel dizzy so I can get rid of the crappy airbox. 
In the end, a big http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

keep the accelerator mashed all the way to the rev limit and you will also notice that bit harder engine growl and "noticable lift" does not die out after 6k rpm like the stock cam does http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## polskipolak (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

Ok, I think I get it now, to confirm: 
Having the modded and old intake cams side by side with both cams having the same lobe orientation, Im aiming to put my mark on the new gear in the same relative spoke of the gear as the old one.
So in this pic, the yellow mark (which I got by counting 6 teeth ahead of the old mark) is wrong, while the red mark would be correct?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (polskipolak)*

bingo!
the easiest oreintation to see this is to set the cams with the lobes closest to the gear pointing straight up. the cam sits on 2 teeth and the tooth straight up is close to the center of the lobe.
but yah, you mimic the intake cam.


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: (polskipolak)*

Yes polskipolak, yours looks just like mine.


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: (madonion)*

I'd like to see pics of cam lobes at TDC once it's installed in the head. I'll try to take some of mine but something is not right since I got the key modded. I was having low compression and now nothing I was thinking I had bent intake valves but they seem to seal just fine. The only other thing I could do before pulling the head is to take a leakdown test but I dont have what it take.
Everything line up fine. intake cam is @7theet if you include the tooth where the original mark is. 
The modded cam welds were done on the back of the sprocket








TDC on flywheel
























TDC on Crank Pulley, not 100% accurate like the flywheel








































So what's the verdict ? 
Is my key on the wrong side ? I'd be 10 degrees too advanced ?


_Modified by madonion at 6:26 PM 4-9-2009_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (madonion)*

is the print on the cam timing belt gear toward the head or toward the outside?
something isn't right with your set up @ tdc. have you verified piston tdc with a screwdriver or socket extension through the spark plug hole?
how exactly did you set the cam, which way did you turn the gear, cw or ccw? how did you pick 7 teeth for the mark? did you set the modded cam next to the stock intake? 
btw use the mark on the inside of the cam timing belt gear that lines up with the edge of the head to set the (real) exhaust cam @ tdc to keep from being a tooth or 2 off on the belt timing. the cam chain dot is not accuate enough to set belt timing.


_Modified by weeblebiker at 2:57 AM 4-10-2009_


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

the marking of the timing belt gear is toward the head as you can see the white line laying horizontally flat to the head.
I turned the sprocket CCW 3.6degrees (2mm cut on the side of the key). I pick 7 teeth as a mark following what people had done here. I never had a stock intake cam. I bought this engine, swapped it and never got it running right. It did run with 210psi across all 4 @ 7.5 teeth last summer low end was ok but mid and high sucked.


_Modified by madonion at 7:06 PM 4-9-2009_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (madonion)*

that reads correct, I just looked @ a couple cams and your mod is done correctly. 
you need to verify crank and exhaust cam tdc. I've heard and experienced timing belt gear keys shearing and not known, it which offsets the timing marks.


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

I checked again TDC with a screw driver in spark plug and it line up just fine. I might try to install my adjustable cam belt pulley i received yesturday and check what the key looks like.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (madonion)*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Uberocco83 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

I just got my modded exhaust cam running in my high comp. 9a with a ported 1.8 head on cis and it kicks. Previously had a euro intake cam and swapped to this one and this cam pulls harder. If youre thinking of picking up a euro cam save your money.....half the price and 3-4 more hp probably.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (Uberocco83)*

ok so I still have 2 of these laying around. 
$106 shipped to you with no core!

c'mon I just dropped 4 bills in clutch and reinforcment cause I'm making a lot of a bit more torque than expected on my current "project"
make more hp and keep me from sleeping on the couch at the same time


----------



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

very nice, i always wondered exactly where it all should be... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
i have filed a side off the cam gear key, eyeballed half of a timing belt tooth's space = 2 degrees, tightened bolt with gear tensioned in same direction as bolt tightenes for retard, instead of buying an adjustable gear
this is what i used to use
notice the pencil marks i've added:
the line is vertical, perpindicular to head surface, straight through chain link center
all next to the oe intake dot, also added in pencil









_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 4:16 AM 5-16-2009_

_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 4:19 AM 5-16-2009_

_Modified by EL DRIFTO at **** AM 5-16-2009_

_Modified by EL DRIFTO at **** AM 5-16-2009_


_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 4:23 AM 5-16-2009_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (EL DRIFTO)*

that will get one in the ballpark, but that method gets the exhaust cam out of phase to get the intake into phase. granted the intake phase has more to do with changing how the air pump behaves.


----------



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

i love you man
i just read "Maximum Boost" by corky bell over the week end...
ar ratios, kids, 250 pages, 9 hours
anyway, i read that stock cam profiles are good for turbos...
good to know...
anyway, after all that, you must already know, do i go back to US oe cams for turbo?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (EL DRIFTO)*

the main concern is the valve overlap at the end of the exhaust phase and begining of the intake phase. it should be around stock or less (not none) overlap and should be centered with tdc.
then intake duration should not be too great. I don't know the calculations but it has to do with balancing intake manifold pressure and acceleration and distance the piston has moved up (vacuum moving to compression) before the intake valve closes.
that said I have not bothered to pull my exhaust cam out yet, but when I get to the dyno, I will compare the exhaust cam to a stock cam on boost http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

I haven't read that book, I'm making this project hard on myself.
because my next project is going to be a flying machine


----------



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

4 valve per cylinder motors have allot of curtain area the moment the valves open
their cam durations are shorter, cause the head flows better
people have noticed that after a port job, they have to advance their cams
the head flows better/has less torque, the oe cam timing is back
for a non ported 1.8 head, a larger lift exhaust cam always helps the disproportional ex port that is <80% intake port flow...
narrowing the valve center, VC, (increasing overlap) narrows the powerband, makes it peakier, timing determines where
on my stock 1.8:
with a stock head, retarding the cams (at the timing belt) 2 degrees was way better overall - since the ex port sucks and the head isn't ported
if i ported the head, fixed the ex ports, the ex cam would probably be too big, and the overall timing would be too retarded
EDIT:
oh yeah, the idle is priceless

_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 1:35 AM 5-24-2009_


_Modified by EL DRIFTO at 12:55 AM 5-26-2009_


----------



## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: (EL DRIFTO)*

i've always thought that if it had problems with cis idle
and problems trying to drive down the street at 30 mph
everything was perfect?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (EL DRIFTO)*

nice add! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I need to think about it before I comment, a long weekend involving boating, lots 'O sun and a case 'O beer a day leads to brain mush.


----------



## Jeebus (Jul 8, 2001)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_I will compare the exhaust cam to a stock cam on boost http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I'm interested in this info. Good luck.... I'm considering picking one up.. but I need proof.


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

Weeblebiker, the way you mod your cams you always zero out the cams with an adjustable timing gear so they look symmetrical or do you leave them untouched ?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (madonion)*

theoretically with a stock head and block and gasket the cams should be close to symetric @ tdc since the overlap is about the same as stock. 
but the exhaust cam lobe center will lead the intake cam lobe center by 3 degrees, dunno if you can eyeball that little difference, eyballing it looks darn close to equel
the exhaust cam is not touched and the modded intake cam position is based off the stock cam position
if your head or block has been decked, like mine, you should use an adjustable cam gear to re center the cams to tdc since the exhaust cam position is off because of the timing belt sprockets are closer together. I adjusted mine almost 1/2 timing belt tooth to "center" the cams
are you sure your crank timing belt gear key is not sheered?


_Modified by weeblebiker at 2:00 AM 7-28-2009_


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

Well i've run the car like that for maybe 500miles now. I haven't been able to install my adjustable cam gear the bolt is to tight. I'll propably let it to my mechanic to see if he can get the bolt of that cam for me with his big tools and experience. The car runs ok, but it wont go really over 5500Rpm it feels like it doesn't want to go over that. exhaust cam seems to lead the intake cam by a few degrees like you said but I can definitely see the difference. I'm thinking it might be a little too advanced. once I get the adjustable cam gear on I think it will get better. 
Head has been decked but I always thought that it would retard cam timing.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (madonion)*

decking does retard.
by the pics if that really was tdc, I really think you have a sheered key on the cam or crank gear.
does everything line up correctly with a stock intake cam?????


----------



## madonion (May 1, 2007)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

thoses pics were wrong, intake cam was one tooth off too retarded on theses pictures. . The timing belt turns clockwise if you look at from the timing belt side, Right ?


_Modified by madonion at 8:33 PM 7-27-2009_


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (madonion)*

yah, it is pulled down the front of hte motor over the im gear. moves up the tensioner side


----------



## ABF cupra (Sep 28, 2009)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

I want to carry out this mod using an ABF exhaust cam which has a peak timing of 114 not 110

can someone help me work out how much i need to file my key down by
these are the only details i have on the ABF cam









Many Thanks


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (ABF cupra)*

I will, but why?
the abf intake is pretty darn close to the exhaust and I don't know if I'd feel right with myself letting you bust up a already good cam set,,,,,unless your willing to send me the stock abf intake cam, for comparison's sake of course








where'd you get that chart from?


----------



## ABF cupra (Sep 28, 2009)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

I found that chart on this forum somewhere, just copied the image location!
so you dont think id see any benifit running an abf exhaust cam as an inlet?
thats a shame was hoping for a bit of cheap fun!
i do have a spare set of ABF cams now then if i dont use one for the mod
But i am in England!


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (ABF cupra)*

I'll start looking @ the #'s tonight. 
although I'm not sure you will get a noticable by butt dyno improvment like we do over here replacing our anemic stock intake cam. maybe only a couple hp increase for yours on either up top or down low in the rpms, but not across the whole range.


----------



## ABF cupra (Sep 28, 2009)

ok well thanks for your help, still interested to know what id need to offset mine by.
if i dont go ahead with it though i will have a spare set of ABF cams for sale if anyone wants them, although shipping may prohibit this!!


----------



## ABF cupra (Sep 28, 2009)

*Re: (ABF cupra)*

Just thought id add a little more info on the abf cams
i know have 2 sets and it would seem they dont rely on the keyway at all!
the early set i have the pulley have a keyway cut into them but the cams dont and there are no keys just a gap
the later set the pulleys dont even have a cutout for the keyway
so im guessing they are relying on just being a very tight fit!!


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (ABF cupra)*

they are a very tight fit. I use a 10ton press to get em apart then heat the gear to press em back on. really the press fit is enough to hold, the only thing that could make em slip is mashing all the intake valves and that's still not enough, ask me how i know








no key to locate the gear makes setting them very very difficult. I've only done one with no key and I had to pull and press the gear 6-8 times before I hit the mark. 
you should send me those extra paperweights you have










_Modified by weeblebiker at 10:08 PM 10-12-2009_


----------



## Uberocco83 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Re: (weeblebiker)*

That one must have been mine.......It has no key way.


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## ABF cupra (Sep 28, 2009)

*Re: (Uberocco83)*

i can send them if you want but i dont know about shipping from the uk to the us!!
I've decided to get one of my abf inlets reprofiled to 264 duration and 10.95mm lift can get that done here for 100 english pounds.
will let people know my results
PS if you would rather i stopped spamming up this thread please let me know


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: (ABF cupra)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ABF cupra* »_i can send them if you want but i dont know about shipping from the uk to the us!!
I've decided to get one of my abf inlets reprofiled to 264 duration and 10.95mm lift can get that done here for 100 english pounds.
will let people know my results
PS if you would rather i stopped spamming up this thread please let me know

sent him 2 im's. he hasn't been on the board since he wrote this


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## greenhornet1 (Mar 22, 2010)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

Hello weeblebiker. I was curious if you were still doing the exhaust cam
modification for the 16v. If so, email me @[email protected] I'd like to get the mod done, have the cam already in a box, just need to know where to send it. Thanks.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (greenhornet1)*

i'm around off and on. I'll be on more often for the next couple months while I get my rocco back together.
still doing it
im me here. 


_Modified by weeblebiker at 1:56 AM 3-24-2010_


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## greenhornet1 (Mar 22, 2010)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

Hey! I don't mean to seem like a total moron, but I'm new to this forum and the vw world. I have purchased a '90 jetta gli and would like to due this mod to the camshafts. I have ported and polished a spare head a buddy gave me & he mentioned this mod to me and of course it a great alternative to a new cam. Can you email me an address to send these cams. My email is [email protected]


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

allow popups from this site
th im I sent you will come up and you can reply to that
or
click on the little balloon looking symbloe below my screen name on the left side that says im
I don't clutter my home email with car stuff and I don't use my work email for car stuff.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
just so you understand, you need an extra exhaust cam. the extra cam is modified into an intake cam and you use the stock intake cam as a paperweight


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## stupidcorrado (Apr 4, 2010)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (weeblebiker)*

what about for boosted applications im building a 2.1l 16v for my corrado running a 98 gti harness and ecu but i thought overlap is not so good for boosted cars what do you think i should do


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Unification Theory of all the exhaust cam info (stupidcorrado)*

the whole less overlap is good for boosted cars is way too over simplified. it like saying bigger brakes are better or more crank stroke is better.
check out the aftermarket specs for turbo apps and see if they have less overlap.


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## vw ca. (Mar 21, 2004)

*Ex. cam Mod*

Hi, 

What would the cam do for performance on the 9a ke-motronic power curve, starting with the 

low end, midrange, and highend rpm. Without modding the cam sprocket keyway ? What would the idle 

be like?


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

worse than the stock cam. it would be like 6 or 8 degrees advanced or retarded. you'll have lots of low midrange and no top or have no low and all above 5k rpm


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## hyperformancevw (Mar 15, 2007)

so pretty much to simplify all of this...cut your spare exhaust cam, install on intake side six teeth off not counting the original tooth, advance it 2-3 degrees on the cam which equals 4-6 crank degrees?


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

if your talking about 2-3* on an adjustable timing belt gear, no


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## hyperformancevw (Mar 15, 2007)

no i mean 2-3* on the sprocket. i just did mine yesterday it took a total of 45 min including modding the exhaust cam. it is very easy i didnt bother with all the key way mess i just pulled the key out, threw it away and pressed the gear on where i wanted it. so my specs are...

2.0 16v 58k orig miles running on digiII

2 1/4 exhaust no cat. (header is already on the way)

installed cam 6 teeth counter clock.

pressed on the gear half of the key way advanced i may go a little more/less just to try it

it was worth my time to do this mod. it lost barely any low end, same mid range and it pulls much harder after 4k all the way to the rev limiter. still need a chip, header and bmw vam. i am running a 4 bar fpr, the 3 bar didnt seem to have enough up top. im still playing with this setup so i will have more to report after other mods and tuning. i think the bmw vam will help the most it is already an upgrade for a stock 16v on digiII


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

yes you can do it that way, 

I'm just don't know of a way to locate the gear correctly when you press it back on. 

it's not possible to eyball it.

that is why the key is used for locating the gear


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## hyperformancevw (Mar 15, 2007)

a set of narrow feeler gauges between the key slot on the gear and the slot in the cam. you can set it where you want in mm and then lightly tap the gear down with a hammer to get it started. then just press the gear all the way down like usual


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

yah that would do it :thumbup:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

err,
except that you need to move it almost 7*, not 2-3*


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## hyperformancevw (Mar 15, 2007)

from what i gather, the cam needed to be moved on the key 2mm, which is half the width of the key, am i wrong? it has to be very close because it runs so well.

also the 3* i am referring to is at the cam sprocket which is 6 at the crank, correct?


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

k. first mm are not * 
1.9667ish milimeters = 6.6* (degrees)

I think your doing it right just not writing what you did right :thumbup:


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## busboy25 (Feb 22, 2010)

So beside friction between the cam and sprocket what keep them from spinning independent of which other without a key


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## hyperformancevw (Mar 15, 2007)

weeblebiker said:


> k. first mm are not *


i know that, im not retarded it just seems there is so much different information in here it is making it hard to understand because people are asking the same question 30 different ways and it gets confusing. so we are looking for around 7* on the cam which is 14* on the crank. thanks for the clarification:thumbup:


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## hyperformancevw (Mar 15, 2007)

the friction is enough to keep it from spinning. it is a really tight fit. ABF 16v motors dont even use a key from the factory with the same design cams/sprockets we are using.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

the first few pages were working through the rumor and hear-say and figuring out a way to syncronize the cam lobe change to the rest of the valve train.

putting prefaces on the first post to summerize may be confusing if people do not look at the dates.

but yah you've got it. 

I could re write it simple, but more people that really don't a clue how a motor works would try it and screw it up.

and as for people asking 30 different ways you should see the im's I get.


----------



## wut_cel (Nov 27, 2009)

Dead thread bump. 

What kind if gains would I see on a bone stock 9a (carb'd) if I did this? Anyone ever installed this cam on a bone stock car and thrown it on a dyno? Really wanting to do this, just wanting to make sure it's worth the time and money. 

:beer:


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

bone stock with cis or with carbs? 
if carbed are the carb runner lengths tuned? 
no one has done dyno testing, most people dropping cash dyno'ing would probably pony up the cash to buy a aftermarket cam set. 
that said, 
there is ps 2375 that has does hill climbs and some autox iirc he has performance times before and after cam change , he posted somewhere in the thread, and sneakyz25 that runs stock class lemons races although iirc sneakyz25 also did a transmission change (gear ratios) which kinda skews any performance benefit times before and after cam change. 

I'd ask them


----------



## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

For the time(free) and money(less than new/used cam(s)), this is in my opinion, well worth it. I don't know what kind of hp gains there were, but the motor showed a very notice-able improvement at the top of the power-band. Where it normally ran out of power on the stock cam, the swapped cam went further, another 4-500 rpm (it has been awhile since we did that swap) or so. It did make a diff for our auto-x'ing. And we were still on the stock every where else, including the CIS. We later that season went to a ported TB and a TT Race Header, and the gains got even better. 

If you don't plan on going to bigger cam(s) for some time, this is a very good mod. But if the bigger items are just around the corner, you might as well wait for them. That is actually up to you. But I would do it again, if we were in the same place with the car.:thumbup:


----------



## wut_cel (Nov 27, 2009)

It's a bone stock 2.0 16v with dual dell'ortos and a d'bilas short runner intake. I won't be swapping the cam from the modded exhaust cam for a long time. Why has no one dyno'd a car with this cam in 4 years?


----------



## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

Good question. We had dyno'd after we got the car up and running, mainly for a baseline and some minor tuning. We never had a chance to get back to the dyno before the motor broke. But it had more changes than just the cams, so it still wouldn't have been a good comparison. But the difference with the intake cam change are enough that you will notice the improvements.


----------



## wut_cel (Nov 27, 2009)

I just mailed my spare cam to weeble! Let's see how this goes :beer: 

Just received my cam back, will get to installing it/dyno'ing in few weeks.


----------



## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

wut_cel said:


> I just mailed my spare cam to weeble! Let's see how this goes :beer:


 :thumbup:For the cost, I think you'll be happy. We were.


----------



## wut_cel (Nov 27, 2009)

ps2375 said:


> :thumbup:For the cost, I think you'll be happy. We were.


 Will installation be as easy as I think? 
Set the motor to tdc 
Remove intake cam 
Drop in new intake cam with new marking 
TQ everything to spec 
Start car 

How far off am I?


----------



## ps2375 (Aug 13, 2003)

That is about it. You may want a new set of lifters for the intake side.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

wut_cel said:


> Will installation be as easy as I think?
> Set the motor to tdc
> Remove intake cam
> Drop in new intake cam with new marking
> ...


 almost as easy as that. 
recheck the timing after you bolt it down. the cam rotates a tooth or so when it is tightend down. I still miss by a tooth half the time.


----------



## wut_cel (Nov 27, 2009)

Cam tooth or timing gear a tooth off?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

cam chain gear


----------



## hadaki (Sep 8, 2004)

Timing belt snap last week, 8 pcs inlet valve gone.

Top overhaul the 9A with inlet exhaust cam.

Manage to start it but idle not stable and lack of power on low end.

Tomorrow have to open the cover again re check the cam setting.

Any advise?

:banghead:


Good power with exhaust inle cam.


----------



## leon whalen (May 28, 2007)

wut_cel said:


> It's a bone stock 2.0 16v with dual dell'ortos and a d'bilas short runner intake. I won't be swapping the cam from the modded exhaust cam for a long time. Why has no one dyno'd a car with this cam in 4 years?


 i did this swap on my aba16v about 4 years ago. colin at t.t. says it is worth about 8ish HP and the euro intake cam is about 6ish HP. it is very much worth doing. 
i recently picked up a set of 276 cams and i would not sell my exhaust cam for less than $100.00, because it is worth every penny.


----------



## wut_cel (Nov 27, 2009)

leon whalen said:


> i did this swap on my aba16v about 4 years ago. colin at t.t. says it is worth about 8ish HP and the euro intake cam is about 6ish HP. it is very much worth doing.
> i recently picked up a set of 276 cams and i would not sell my exhaust cam for less than $100.00, because it is worth every penny.


 Awesome, thanks for the info!


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## phrankentruk (Jul 29, 1999)

This is confusing because the picture in teh first post shows the key to the left in the sprocket. Then on page four the same picture is there with a caption that says this is the way NOT to do it.

This is near the top of the post first page:



> on further research, I found most cam sets of this duration put the lobe separation @ 110*
> rotating the cam gear 3.6*+3*= 6.6* counterclockwise. the diameter is 34mm at the gear; 0.2967mm=1* which is shaving 2mm or 1/2 off the key. this should be pretty damn near best for street and stock rev limit, (but will increase overlap and may effect emissions). for you, cutting a new keyway, all you need to do is take this angle offset and add multiples of 14.4* to put the keyway where you want.


Then on page 4, this:



> on further research, I found most cam sets of this duration put the lobe separation @ 110*
> rotating the cam 3.6*+3*= 6.6* counterclockwise. this should be pretty damn near best for street and stock rev limit, (but will increase overlap and may effect emissions).


Could you clear that up weeblebiker? There's amazing information in this thread, but what a mess! It seems like one more edit should be made to the first post that says, "rotate the came this way, this much, for broad power & stock rev limiter" (correct picture). "Rotate the cam this way, this much, for high rpm power" (correct picture)

And then a pic of the cams on a table the way you've explained showing where to make the mark.


----------



## phrankentruk (Jul 29, 1999)

Can anyone help me here? I think the cam gets rotated clockwise in the gear (looking from the gear end). Is that right?


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

phrankentruk said:


> This is confusing because the picture in teh first post shows the key to the left in the sprocket. Then on page four the same picture is there with a caption that says this is the way NOT to do it.
> 
> This is near the top of the post first page:
> 
> ...


 Honestly, the whole thread was me working out the mod for my benefit from start to finish, not a work for others. I learned what I wanted on the subject and moved on. 

I am willing to answer thoughtful questions about what I learned, but am not motivated to clarify this post anymore than I did (see all the edits I did to the first post) 

I'm not interested in making it so simple people who shouldn't be sticking their heads under the hoods of their cars trying it, then blaming the mod for their f-up and poor performance cause they didn't understand what they were doing  

all the info is there on the first post. :wave:


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## 16valvulasturbo (Dec 1, 2012)

best bang for you buck if those number comparisons are certain.:thumbup: 

true to thr fact that you have posted a lot towards making this as clear as posible over the internet; short of laying your hands on the motor and doing it; if anyone has still trouble unferstanding the way this wotrks; then they should maybe start by the basics of how an otto cycle combustion engine works.:wave:


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## phrankentruk (Jul 29, 1999)

Geez guys, it's kind of unfair to say I can't/don't know how/don't want to work on my car based on what I posted above isn't it? I read through the entire thread & there is a direct contradiction (with pictures) in there, as far as which way to turn the cam. 

Weeblebiker, thanks for confirming that the info. in the first post is the correct part. I also sifted through it again & got into the 107 vs. 112 vs. 110 deg. timing stuff & figured it out. I modded the cam & it's in the car but not running yet (part of a full rebuild).


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

glad you got it worked :thumbup: 
do not take offense. 
my post was simply a statment of position as to why I had not made the info any more clear than I have.


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## radu_iroc (Aug 24, 2009)

is this exhaust mod good for 2.0 16vg60? opcorn:


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

radu_iroc said:


> is this exhaust mod good for 2.0 16vg60? opcorn:



I'll be able to answer this question in about 2 weeks.


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

Geezum. So much stuff to read here. I hope I got it right in these 6 easy steps.:

1. Chop off the extension that would normally hold the cam gear:









2. Remove some material from the key:









3. & 4. Take off material from the other end so that it doesn't hit the half moon gasket. And then install the key so that the cam gets advanced a bit:









5. Make a new mark on the gear:









6. Press the gear back on.


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## solohan (Jan 14, 2013)

how is your idle with that cam?


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## P. Lanttola (Oct 31, 2013)

My brain jammed.

Could someone explain how is it possible that when I want the LSA to be 110 degrees, the cam needs to be rotated 87 degrees from it's original postition?

I mean if you first put the two exhaust cams in the same way, the lobes pointing the same direction (don't mind the original timing marks here), you will have to turn the inlet side cam somewhere around 90 degrees to get it into right position. One tooth being 14.4 deg and 6.25 teeth is 90 deg, right?

If you turn the cam 90° won't the LSA be 90°?
And if you want 110°, wouldn't it be that you have to turn the cam 110°?

110/14.4=7.64 teeth

So what am I missing here?


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## P. Lanttola (Oct 31, 2013)

Had to ask a friend how owns a machine shop, it is because the valves are not in the same angle.

Does anyone know what is the angle between the valves, perhaps around 20°?

And by the way, i bought a pair of 9A cams and the exhaust cam didn't have a keyway, is that very common?


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

solohan said:


> how is your idle with that cam?


My cam? Just started it up last night. Rebuilt engine at 32 degrees F. Didn't have to make any modification to the code. Idle stability is better than before though because it was burning so much oil before the rebuild. The engine vibrates more but I also just added Raceland headers so no flex joints. It feels like I lost low end but the tuning is all out of wack now so I can't say for sure.


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

This engine rips now! But I also ported the head and intake and added a full exhaust. The cam was a great addition! Especially for $10.


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## P. Lanttola (Oct 31, 2013)

Here are my cams. It wasn't such a bad thing there was no keyway in the cam, a little bit of measuring and calculating and after a few attempts I managed to get the gear pressed in how I wanted to, being 3° retarded from the original inlet cam position. The sprocket is now turned 93° so the old timing mark can be used.


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

P. Lanttola said:


> Here are my cams. It wasn't such a bad thing there was no keyway in the cam, a little bit of measuring and calculating and after a few attempts I managed to get the gear pressed in how I wanted to, being 3° retarded from the original inlet cam position. The sprocket is now turned 93° so the old timing mark can be used.



The key is for orientation, the press fit holds the gear in place, so no worries.


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## dougkehl (Nov 30, 2011)

Quick question, I just found out the 16v I swapped into my Mk1 has two exhaust cams in it. If this mod was done incorrectly could it prevent the engine from running past a certain rpm? I would assume yes, but I figured I'd ask. The mod was done by the previous owner so and I'm trying to get the thing running right. Thanks :beer:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

Wow this thread never dies, nice pic adds and info by the last few posters. Good to see others helping out with the Q/A :thumbup:

makes me happy to see people people are still getting benefit from this thread.:wave:

*edit: BTW I need a aba power steering pump and the 3 ps brackets and associated hardware, will trade a cam mod for it. Help a brotha out:beer:*

I'm still working on increasing air flow into the cylinders


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

dougkehl said:


> Quick question, I just found out the 16v I swapped into my Mk1 has two exhaust cams in it. If this mod was done incorrectly could it prevent the engine from running past a certain rpm? I would assume yes, but I figured I'd ask. The mod was done by the previous owner so and I'm trying to get the thing running right. Thanks :beer:


yah if the cam is adnvanced too much power will die up top and the os sensor will read rich from too much overlap. best thing to do is pull the cam and compare the lobe /tooth/timing mark orientations listed in the thread.



also saw someoe ask about cams not having keys, yah it was common sometime after '90, vag figured out how to assemble with correct lobe sprocket orientation without a guide key. the press fit is what keeps the gear in place, not the key, it's a pita to get the orientation right though

note to people doing this mod, heat the gearup before pressing it back on, makes the pressing alot easier.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

P. Lanttola said:


> My brain jammed.
> 
> Could someone explain how is it possible that when I want the LSA to be 110 degrees, the cam needs to be rotated 87 degrees from it's original postition?
> 
> ...


lsa and duration are only a reference numbers, they don't mean anything without rpm that's why cams have a power range. the important numbers are the valve overlap time and valve open time (also the acceleration of the valve, but i digress). the main function of the cam is to control open and close time (really fast and really reliably) 

honestly I never put much thought into it that way, trying to get raw angle numbers. I strongly believe in standing on others shoulders and not reinventing stuff

I just went off a few knowns:
1: stock cam set reported lsa and duration figures. (the vw engineers know more than me)
2: after market cam set reported lsa and duration figures. (the aftermarket cam designers know more than me)

An old article on 16v aftermarket cam tuning with dyno tests that stated the stock exhaust cam was pretty optimized from the factory so I left that alone.

then precisely measuring lobe center, and cam profile start/stop angles to nearest common landmark (gear tooth) on a stock intake and exhaust cam. and doing the simple geometry/trig math to get the lsa to the same place as the aftermarket cam sets of similar duration.
i think 110* lsa best for na (more overlap), 112* or so lsa would be better for fi (about the same overlap as stock and more open time into the compression stroke)


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

P. Lanttola said:


> My brain jammed.
> 
> Could someone explain how is it possible that when I want the LSA to be 110 degrees, the cam needs to be rotated 87 degrees from it's original postition?
> 
> ...


sorry
I didn't answer your question the first time.
your missing that the angle between cam lobe center and the nearest tooth is not the same on the intake cam and exhaust cam. the toothed wheel is the same part on both cams with the keyway and timing dot in the same place relative to each other. the difference specifically is between the cam is lobe center to key way slot on the intake cam and exhaust cam.


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## P. Lanttola (Oct 31, 2013)

Yes, I understand that.

But what I was wondering was that if you have two identical cams that are in an identical position, how is it possible that when you turn the other cam 90° the angle between the cams (LSA) becomes 110°.

Because if you take a cam of an engine that has only one cam, the LSA can roughly be seen directly from the cam.

But I missed the fact that you have to think the camshaft's position relative to the valves. And inlet valves are not in same angle than exhaust valves.

I turned the cam gear 93° in so I can use the original timing mark and once I get it mounted in the engine I will measure the LSA with a degree plate (or what ever it is called) and a dial test indicator, it should be near 110° but we'll see...


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## Armagon (Apr 19, 2004)

Hi, i did my head gasket this week end on my 16v turbo and decided to put it the exhaust cam modification along with some expériences i wanna make with water injection. Basically, i want to put it bak to 1 ABA gasket instead of 2 to put it back to the original compression ratio, lower the boost between 2-5 psi and run it like that with water injection.

I want to make a couple things sure before closing it once for all.

How will the power band be once everything is set like you say ? Will i keep my max torque at like 4000 rpm or it will move higher ?

How will it be with a turbo application ?

Many say that the idle wil be very rough and many say that it's bull**** and i didn't find any clear answer about those questions.

thanks

Max


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

torque band has more to do with runner design than valve open time, won't change much. the hp curve will not drop off at higher rpms like the stock cam does.
it's fine with forced induction

The idle should not change much if done right. the idle tune may need tweaked depending on engine management. The crappy idle is from people not doing the cut key or not doing it right and having the cam to cam timing too far off. the original intake cam is always the reference standard.

my experience with water injection is that it corrodes gsxr individual throttle bodies, switching to E85 will get similar results as water injection. if you still want to play with water injection im me I've done some reading on the subject, I also have some fun water injection bits I'd sell.


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## Armagon (Apr 19, 2004)

Here is did some work to figure out why to move the timing mark by 6 teeth and took some of the oem cam VS the exhaust cam modication one.

First 2 pics are the first intake cam lobe from the cylinder #1 and second picture is the 2 timing marks facins each others.



















Second 2 pics are the same but from the exhaust cam modification.



















the 2 intake cams have the same angle and the exhaust modified one is one teeth moved counter clockwise facing the timing belt side.

I don't understand how moving it 6 teeth from the other side will make then engine run better or correct me if i'm wrong. that'd be cool if someone that did the modification would post some detailed pictures of the cam installed and ready to go.

thanks in advance for your insights.


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## Armagon (Apr 19, 2004)

Weeblebiker asked me to make a picture of both cams on the counter next to each others with the lobes next to the gear pointing straight up. 

As I have a hard head and also some laziness, I decided to not take them apart and just take pics of them in the heads they are and assemble both pictures to make it easy to see.

Here is the picture of the cams:


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## Armagon (Apr 19, 2004)

here is a pic of both oem and modified cams with the lobes next to the gear pointing upward:











here is a picof the 2 same cam gears with my personal touch to show that to get the same lobe angle, you just need to move it by 1 tooth.










So seing this fact i don't understand why to move it by 6 teeth.

The only thing i didn't try yet is the gear from the intake cam on the exhaust cam. They clearly don't have the same marks.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

sorry to tell yo but you made a paperweight.
the flange that you completely ground off is what keeps the cam located side to side. the cam can now drift enough that the lobes may hit. running that cam and your chancing total head destruction, 
also the cam gear is on backwards.

I believe we are revisiting 2007 aren't we?


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## Armagon (Apr 19, 2004)

we are not revisiting 2007, I found my old cam that I kept and dedided to use it to make the picture so I don't have to take the intake, valve cover and cams apart again from my motor.

So you are saying that the cam gear is backward ? I installed it the other way and thought it was backward like this.

I'll install it the other way and repost a picture when I have 5 min.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

cool 
I can tell its backwards by the timing location and the shiny ring on the gear that was pressed up against the cam shoulder, the shoulder face of the gear that is normally out will have the same oil oxidation as the rest of the gear surface like on the intake cam gear. also the timing dot on the front and back are in the same place so it flips about the key slot.
remember that the gear is the same on the intake and exhaust cams, the key slot in the cam is in different locations.


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## Armagon (Apr 19, 2004)

perfect,i will fix that up probably this week end if my wife allows me.

After, i'll make nice pics that will show exactly how to do it and how it looks like once installed. And I specify not to put the cam gear backward


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## Armagon (Apr 19, 2004)

here are some cool pics of the exhaust cam installed and how it should look like.

Fisrt in the cam gear installed with 7 teeth counting from bottom up. I don't like to NOT count one teeth, it's mixing up. LetS count all the teeth including the one one the original mark and the one that should be on the new mark that i didn't do.

Second, in the bottom is one stud removed.

It is THE ONLY THING to remove if you don't want to remove the other cam and redo the timing. The single stud, saves a lot of head aches by not removng the exhaust cam and not re aligning the cam seal and all and all.











The second pic is just to re assure you you did the job well, if the cam lobes of the first cylinder are not pointing this direction, that means you have put the came gear backward or did something wrong somewhere and you ahve to figure it out.

So here is how it should look like :










sorry the pics are on the side, i tried to fix that but seems it didn,t work


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

:thumbup:


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

and always always always,,,,turn the engine over by hand with a wrench on the crank gear bolt a few full revolutions to ensure clearance. ya don't want to find out you flubbed the timing by bending valves.


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## blue plates (Apr 12, 2014)

What happened to this thread? I want another cam made but haven't been able to get a hold of weeble.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

?
no im's


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

:wave:


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

Jetta2dr said:


> Ok, I was _finally_ able to degree an exhaust cam on the intake side in the head. I think my figures are fairly accurate, as I was able to reproduce them with a difference of about 2%.
> So these are the specs for the exhaust cam at 6 teeth exactly:
> -15 BTDC IVO @ .050"
> 50 ABDC IVC @ .050"
> ...



I quoted this from page 1 and I don't have time to go back through this thread to see if this statement was retracted. The tried and true method is 6 teeth + half the woodruff key (+5.8 degrees). I'm trying to determine when the modified exhaust cam opens the intake valves. According to the number above the .050" lift is achieved at 20.8 degrees BTDC (15*+5.8*). Does that sound right?


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

The first post has been edited with the most recent information. Page 1-9 can be pretty much skipped unless you want to know how the first post info was reached (good luck following my convoluted ramblings). The last couple pages are user contributed details and pics and are worth a look over.

Edit
As far as when it opens related to tdc, the standard measurement is lobe separation, because decking, and anything else related to the timing belt length affect relation to tdc. It's best to use a adjustable timing belt gear to ensure your tdc relationship.:wave:


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

Well, I think he was right. 6 teeth + half the woodruff key = about 21 deg. BTDC intake valve opening. I ask because with Megasquirt I can time the injectors to ensure the fuel hits a closed valve.


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

running sequential injection?


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## radu_iroc (Aug 24, 2009)

I'm running ABF exhaust as intake cam on my 16vg60 @ 8atdc open to 48 abdc close @1mm


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

weeblebiker said:


> running sequential injection?


Yeah, semi-sequential. It's definitely helped get rid of mis-fires during cruise and I also gained 2 MPG. Starts quicker and slightly more vacuum at idle. :thumbup:


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## still_a_G (Jun 23, 2008)

radu_iroc said:


> I'm running ABF exhaust as intake cam on my 16vg60 @ 8atdc open to 48 abdc close @1mm



You intake valves open 8 degrees after TDC?


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## radu_iroc (Aug 24, 2009)

With key 2mm cut and advance cam sproket 1 tooth


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## radu_iroc (Aug 24, 2009)

@TDC ... EXcam 1.2mm lift and IN(ABFex) 0.65mm lift


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## 134hpvw (Sep 6, 2013)

I always wondered if it was worth the extra expense to run 2 abf exhaust camshafts in a motor. over a abf set of stock cams relatively.


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## radu_iroc (Aug 24, 2009)

Imo...no. ABF stock IN and EX are the same ...lift and duration... my ex cam comes from ACE or 6A engine so it's worth for me replace KR intake cam...


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## radu_iroc (Aug 24, 2009)

Today I'll test the cam 1atdc to [email protected] 1mm lift. 8/48 was to retarded and I guess it's falling in to reversion of mixture...as the piston moves up to compression stroke...IVC to late ....


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## radu_iroc (Aug 24, 2009)

The last combo is much better.... 1*atdc to 41*[email protected] 220* at 1mm lift. It's really dificult to make this mod if you don't know what you're doing and without the propper tools. ABF origonal intake cam is 0.77*btdc 38.85*abdc 219.6* lc109* @1mm lift. KR close at 36* abdc so .... my intake cam mod is 5* retard. It's nice to see 210km/h in 4th [email protected] 7k rpm with 78mm pulleyG60. My ABFex cam as intake mod: shave key 1mm and sproket rotate 3.5 cam degree clockwise as you look from the camshaft pulley the result is 7* crank retard. Install camshaft 1 sproket tooth advance that makes 7.5 sproket tooth from the exhaust cam mark. For NA the key need to be shaved 0.5mm. I'll post pictures soon. Sorry for off-topic but this thread inspired me to do this mod....


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## radu_iroc (Aug 24, 2009)

http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/radu_iroc/media/20150505_093329.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2


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## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

radu_iroc said:


> The last combo is much better.... 1*atdc to 41*[email protected] 220* at 1mm lift. It's really dificult to make this mod if you don't know what you're doing and without the propper tools. ABF origonal intake cam is 0.77*btdc 38.85*abdc 219.6* lc109* @1mm lift. KR close at 36* abdc so .... my intake cam mod is 5* retard. It's nice to see 210km/h in 4th [email protected] 7k rpm with 78mm pulleyG60. My ABFex cam as intake mod: shave key 1mm and sproket rotate 3.5 cam degree clockwise as you look from the camshaft pulley the result is 7* crank retard. Install camshaft 1 sproket tooth advance that makes 7.5 sproket tooth from the exhaust cam mark. For NA the key need to be shaved 0.5mm. I'll post pictures soon. Sorry for off-topic but this thread inspired me to do this mod....


NICE INFO! :thumbup::thumbup:


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