# Problems with APR Stage 1 ECU upgrade version 2



## TTRageS (Aug 9, 2013)

I just had the new APR version 2 stage 1 software upgrade and I am getting alot of boost fade ( drop-off after hitting 4,000 RPM) It is like the car just hit a dead spot. I specifically waited to get the ECU flash till they came out with their version 2 to correct the issues with version 1...Anyone else having this problem? It took them quite a while for them to correct the misfiring problem that many people reported having with version 1. I am starting to not have faith in their ECU upgrade for this engine. Thoughts? I am thinking of switching to GIAC or Stasis or UM.


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## canuckttrs (Feb 5, 2012)

opcorn:


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## croman44 (Jan 9, 2013)

I have not heard of anyone else having this issue. Have you tried to call them? Or maybe shoot a PM to Arin and Sean


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

I do not have this issue. It sounds like it could be a mechanical boost problem though. I doubt it is the tune. Such a significant issue would seem like it would be duplicated by others.


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## cornike (Jul 14, 2013)

*ECU V2 Upgrade*

I too recently got the ECI Stage I V2 upgrade to 2013 TTRS. for the first couple days, I too experienced a flat spot around 4000-4500 rpm. I also got the APR Intercooler installed at the same time so was attributing this issue more to the IC that the ECU. Anyway, after a couple days, the issue resolved itself and have not had any issues since. I drove the car under several different driving conditions (highly aggressive versus normal driving) to give the new ECU program and engine monitoring systems a chance to "learn" the new programing. Very happy with the performance increase and how the engine responds to a variety of conditions.


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

*APR stage 1 version 2*

I have the boost fade problem.. went to the shop that installed it and they replicated the problem and took logs. Sent them to APR and apparently APR is aware of the issue... 

I am also thinking of doing another chip. I am losing confidence in this remapping. I haven't seen issues with the GIAC chip or the Stasis chip. Honestly, very disappointing. I am also concerned because it took APR quite a while to address the issues that the version 1 had. 

To be honest, I would much rather have a chip that was reliable with no issues that offered slightly less HP or Torque than a chip that is pushing to increase performance to the point where it is having issues. 

I am not bashing APR, I am really just concerned that their remap may have some fundamental flaws. I haven't seen issues like this with some of the other tuners.


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

psabo said:


> I have the same exact problem.. went to the shop that installed it and they replicated the problem and took logs. Sent them to APR and apparently APR is aware of the issue...
> 
> I am also thinking of doing another chip. I am losing confidence in this remapping. I haven't seen issues with the GIAC chip or the Stasis chip. Honestly, very disappointing. I am also concerned because it took APR quite a while to address the issues that the version 1 had.
> 
> ...


 Then you haven't googled enough! Everyone's having issues with the TTRS Ecu from england, Germany, France, America, Canada etc. 

Your best bet is to hang tight and be patient instead of shelling out again. I bet Audi are loving this they have made it really hard for tuners with all these different ecu's they have put in the TTRS.


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

*Then you haven't googled enough! Everyone's having issues with the TTRS Ecu from england, Germany, France, America, Canada etc.*

Thank you Poverty, ... Perhaps I will go back to stock and wait for issues to be resolved.


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

Poverty said:


> Then you haven't googled enough! Everyone's having issues with the TTRS Ecu from england, Germany, France, America, Canada etc.
> 
> Your best bet is to hang tight and be patient instead of shelling out again. I bet Audi are loving this they have made it really hard for tuners with all these different ecu's they have put in the TTRS.


 Yep, there is a lot of "stuff" in the new code that needs to be ferreted out. Having said that, I've been driving trouble-free on GIAC stage 2 for what seems like an eternity at this point. Rock solid DD and track performance with program switching since day 1. What's not to like about that? 

The whole "my dyno is bigger than your dyno" pissing match between APR and UM was amusing to watch unfold. The only things that resulted from that whole exercise was APR fixing their code...which is a good thing...and APR pushing the tune to a point that tests the limits of other components just to have bragging rights...which is a bad thing IMO. Pushing the limits right up to the bloody edge of the stock clutch on anything less than stage 3 is not my cup of tea. At stage 3, sure, I expect to shell out another 10-15K on downstream component upgrades. At stage 1 or 2, that is not the case normally.


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Black BeauTTy said:


> The whole "my dyno is bigger than your dyno" pissing match between APR and UM was amusing to watch unfold. The only things that resulted from that whole exercise was APR fixing their code...which is a good thing...and APR pushing the tune to a point that tests the limits of other components just to have bragging rights...which is a bad thing IMO. Pushing the limits right up to the bloody edge of the stock clutch on anything less than stage 3 is not my cup of tea.


 I remember when APR was the conservative tune that folks were switching to when Revo was having lots of issues. Now I guess Stasis/Revo is the conservative tune.


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

I agree Black BeauTTy... it is absolutely ridiculous that Tuners get so obsessed with having the biggest dyno numbers while sacrificing reliability. I would much rather have an ECU tune that doesn't push HP and Torque to the limit but is reliable. Especially with a new $ 60k + car. 

Perhaps Stasis is the way to go? or GIAC? 
The Stasis tune is not as aggressive as the APR but still offers improvement over stock I am told.


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

JohnLZ7W said:


> I remember when APR was the conservative tune that folks were switching to when Revo was having lots of issues. Now I guess Stasis/Revo is the conservative tune.


 


Yes, with new expensive cars I can see where a lot, if not most, people want a reliable conservative tune rather than one that is maxed to limits where it is not agreeing with the engine. ESPECIALLY with stage 1. Those that want to take their cars to the limit can choose stage 2 or 3... My TTRS is a daily driver so I need reliability and would sacrifice a few less HP for reliability...


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## TTRageS (Aug 9, 2013)

croman44 said:


> I have not heard of anyone else having this issue. Have you tried to call them? Or maybe shoot a PM to Arin and Sean


 I have called and apparently they have others that are experiencing the same issue.


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## TTRageS (Aug 9, 2013)

Williamttrs said:


> I do not have this issue. It sounds like it could be a mechanical boost problem though. I doubt it is the tune. Such a significant issue would seem like it would be duplicated by others.


 

Others are having this issue. it is the software unfortunately.


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## canuckttrs (Feb 5, 2012)

haven't heard from anyone with other than APR software with this or a similar problem. so i wouldn't blame the problem on how complicated the software is, many others seem to have no issues such as...giac/stasis/um etc


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## Optimus812 (May 5, 2012)

Some of you guys are real quick to point the finger.. Give these guys a chance to take a look at the problem. Lots of variables to check on issues such as this. My APR stage II ver 2 is running very strong with zero issues for the past couple of weeks. 

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

TTRageS, 

take a look at this post below: 



cornike said:


> I too recently got the ECI Stage I V2 upgrade to 2013 TTRS. for the first couple days, I too experienced a flat spot around 4000-4500 rpm. I also got the APR Intercooler installed at the same time so was attributing this issue more to the IC that the ECU. Anyway, after a couple days, the issue resolved itself and have not had any issues since. I drove the car under several different driving conditions (highly aggressive versus normal driving) to give the new ECU program and engine monitoring systems a chance to "learn" the new programing. Very happy with the performance increase and how the engine responds to a variety of conditions.


 Can you drive the car for a day and see if the flat spot goes away like the customer above? When an ECU is flashed by any tuner, including Audi, adaptation data is reset. Sometimes that can results in a little strange behavior for a little drive time before whatever was adapting finally corrects where is should be. 

Also, if you can, please PM me your contact information. If the above information doesn't help at all, we can take a look at fault codes and data logs to ensure we're not missing something simple, like a boost leak. 



psabo said:


> Sent them to APR and apparently APR is aware of the issue...


 I'm aware engineering spoke with someone and the described behavior seemed to mimic an underboost code. I just checked with them and they have not seen any logs yet, so this is based on an assumption. An underboost code can occur when the difference between specified and actual boost pressure is greater than a set amount in the ECU. Some simply turn this protection off, or increase the delta, but in this case we've kept it the same as stock. It's possible either the car has a small boost leak, or just a variance from one car to another it's not able to keep up with the demand. Engineering plans to personally fly to the location of the customer reporting this behavior to diagnose and either fix the problem (if it's hardware related) or adjust the calibration based on their findings. 



psabo said:


> it is absolutely ridiculous that APR and other Tuners get so obsessed with having the biggest dyno numbers while sacrificing reliability.


 I can assure you a tremendous amount of time was spent on making the calibration reliable. Making big power is very easy. The majority of calibration time is spent on testing for reliability and adjusting the calibration so it's more drivable and enjoyable. 

Thank you.


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## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

canuckttrs said:


> haven't heard from anyone with other than APR software with this or a similar problem. so i wouldn't blame the problem on how complicated the software is, many others seem to have no issues such as...giac/stasis/um etc


 Have you had giac/stasis(Revo) to even claim that??? I have, and we also have a TTRS roadster which is 6 months older. 

Software that worked fine on the roadster didn't work well on the coupe....


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> TTRageS,
> 
> take a look at this post below:
> 
> ...


 Great to hear APR is willing to fly to the location to debug such an issue.:thumbup:


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## OldKenzo (Aug 14, 2012)

Optimus812 said:


> My APR stage II ver 2 is running very strong with zero issues for the past couple of weeks.


 Same here. I've had zero issues with the original stage 2 flash and none with stage 2 v2.0.


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## Timster (May 23, 2012)

wow, good thing I didn't update my APR stage 1 yet... 

wtf??


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

Great to hear APR is willing to fly to the location to debug such an issue. 


yes that is amazing...


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

Poverty said:


> Have you had giac/stasis(Revo) to even claim that??? I have, and we also have a TTRS roadster which is 6 months older.
> 
> Software that worked fine on the roadster didn't work well on the coupe....


 
Had Stasis for just over one year and did not have the problems. Yes it is more conservative but still makes the car more fun and smooths the throttle response out(no stalling in sport mode).

Black BeauTTy speaks highly of GIAC. 

Give APR a little time, they seem to be very open to working the problem out and that is good. Save yourself the extra money.,
If it becomes too long and you want to get a different one GIAC has 30 day satisfaction period so you can see how it is(check details with them first though)


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## NamJa (Jul 31, 2012)

I'm just glad I'm keeping mine stock. Personally I don't see why anyone would boost up the power until after they've upgraded brakes and handling bits (e.g. MSS or even RSB) as those seem to be much more limiting to overall performance. I do realize, however, people buy these cars for different reasons, however, it would just make me nervous to play with electronics and engine management on a new, $60k car!


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

*Give APR a little time, they seem to be very open to working the problem out and that is good.*

I agree. I always have respected APR as a company and believe them to be the best Audi tuner out there. I have used their products for years on various cars that i have owned. I WANT the APR TTRS tune to work. My frustration with the whole situation is that is is a daily driver and not easy for me to get back and forth to the shop that installed it. Also, it is a brand new $60k car and I have dont want to have to worry about an upgrade. I appreciate APR's commitment to their products and it does make me feel better that they are willing to put great resources behind their products. 
I don't want to have to go through the whole process of picking out another stage 1 tune for my car. Alot of thought and research went behind my original choice to go with APR and i really felt good about choosing APR because of their reputaion and commitment to development. I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt here and see if they can remedy my issue instead of being hasty and acting out of frustration and impulse.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Psabo, 

Has anything changed over the weekend? As mentioned above by another user, they saw the hesitation go away within a couple days. Has that happened for you at all? 

Please advise and thank you! 

-Arin


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

NamJa said:


> Personally I don't see why anyone would boost up the power until after they've upgraded brakes and handling bits (e.g. MSS or even RSB) as those seem to be much more limiting to overall performance.


 I agree and disagree. Several weeks back we spent an entire day on track with our TTRS stage 3 and we have only one real upgrade on the car - The APR Stage 3 Turbocharger System (Intercooler + Exhaust too as they are required). The tires were upgraded too, but they were a set of worn out Michelin PSSs, and one was even a miss matched spare from another vehicle. The car ran like a top all weekend, and you are correct in stating it would be better with upgraded brakes and suspension bits, but it's not a must for enjoy the car, especially if you're looking for a little more getup and go around town. I suppose one could say that's a testament to Audi's ability to make this car so stoudt out of the box in those categories. :thumbup:


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Psabo,
> 
> Has anything changed over the weekend? As mentioned above by another user, they saw the hesitation go away within a couple days. Has that happened for you at all?
> 
> ...


 
When I went to the shop that installed it last week they said to drive it "nice" until they find out what the issue is. That being said, I have really not accelerated hard and have kept the RPM's down in the 3- 3.5k area. I did, however bring the car up to the 4k area and noticed the boost dip this morning.


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## twin__turbo (Apr 12, 2012)

My Stage 1 V2 has been flawless. The cars runs great at any RPM. I was re-flashed about 1 week after the release of V2. I hope you figure out what you problem is. If not, APR will for sure.


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

twin__turbo said:


> My Stage 1 V2 has been flawless. The cars runs great at any RPM. I was re-flashed about 1 week after the release of V2. I hope you figure out what you problem is. If not, APR will for sure.


 

Yeah, it looks like it might be related to the "less than optimal" gasoline that we have out here in California. APR has been nothing but excellent in addressing the problem. Actually, very impressive the way that they have tackled the problem and are working hard to find the answer and remedy it.


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## NamJa (Jul 31, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> I agree and disagree. Several weeks back we spent an entire day on track with our TTRS stage 3 and we have only one real upgrade on the car - The APR Stage 3 Turbocharger System (Intercooler + Exhaust too as they are required). The tires were upgraded too, but they were a set of worn out Michelin PSSs, and one was even a miss matched spare from another vehicle. The car ran like a top all weekend, and you are correct in stating it would be better with upgraded brakes and suspension bits, but it's not a must for enjoy the car, especially if you're looking for a little more getup and go around town. I suppose one could say that's a testament to Audi's ability to make this car so stoudt out of the box in those categories. :thumbup:


 My car is actually fully stock (down to the squealing Toyos, at least for the moment) and it's plenty of fun. On track, however, I felt that compared to other cars I was primarily losing ground under braking or in curves rather than on the straight. Not to mention that with more power will come more speed which will burn the brakes even faster. I'm very impressed with this car but when I do start tweaking it I will start with brakes and then handling. More power will just get me more tickets!


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

NamJa said:


> My car is actually fully stock (down to the squealing Toyos, at least for the moment) and it's plenty of fun. On track, however, I felt that compared to other cars I was primarily losing ground under braking or in curves rather than on the straight. Not to mention that with more power will come more speed which will burn the brakes even faster. I'm very impressed with this car but when I do start tweaking it I will start with brakes and then handling. More power will just get me more tickets!


 On the track, we handily kept pace with a Lingelfelter Stage 2 Z06. At the end he came by and asked WTF is that car. 

That was done with stock brakes. They really do a pretty good job. We'll sell brake and suspension kits eventually, but the car really does well without them.


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## i0n (Oct 29, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> On the track, we handily kept pace with a Lingelfelter Stage 2 Z06. At the end he came by and asked WTF is that car.
> 
> That was done with stock brakes. They really do a pretty good job. We'll sell brake and suspension kits eventually, but the car really does well without them.


 I don't suppose you recorded any video of this event? 

I'm not asking because I don't believe you, I'm asking because I've watched every TT video on YouTube and need more to fuel my addiction. Track videos are a welcome change from those stupid dealer videos of still pictures with speech synthesis.


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## 1TT1 (Sep 27, 2007)

NamJa said:


> My car is actually fully stock (down to the squealing Toyos, at least for the moment) and it's plenty of fun. On track, however, I felt that compared to other cars I was primarily losing ground under braking or in curves rather than on the straight. Not to mention that with more power will come more speed which will burn the brakes even faster. I'm very impressed with this car but when I do start tweaking it I will start with brakes and then handling. More power will just get me more tickets!


 You're losing ground under braking/curves not because of your brakes but because of lack of grip from your tires. Stock brake is plenty strong. Stomped on them repeatedly hard and never had brake fade.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

i0n said:


> I don't suppose you recorded any video of this event?
> 
> I'm not asking because I don't believe you, I'm asking because I've watched every TT video on YouTube and need more to fuel my addiction. Track videos are a welcome change from those stupid dealer videos of still pictures with speech synthesis.


 Ya, we have some video. It'll be released soon.


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## NamJa (Jul 31, 2012)

1TT1 said:


> You're losing ground under braking/curves not because of your brakes but because of lack of grip from your tires. Stock brake is plenty strong. Stomped on them repeatedly hard and never had brake fade.


 Also because I'm not a great driver, but that's another discussion  I didn't get fade, per se, but I got a lot of transfer to the rotors and some pretty severe vibrations by the end of the first day and the second; made me lose some confidence in the brakes. And yes, I do realize that when I upgrade my tires it will help all around!


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## OldKenzo (Aug 14, 2012)

psabo said:


> Yeah, it looks like it might be related to the "less than optimal" gasoline that we have out here in California. APR has been nothing but excellent in addressing the problem. Actually, very impressive the way that they have tackled the problem and are working hard to find the answer and remedy it.


 As a California APR Stage 2 owner I’m definitely looking forward to hearing what you find out


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

OldKenzo said:


> As a California APR Stage 2 owner I’m definitely looking forward to hearing what you find out


 UPDATE: I have been working with Sean at APR on finding a solution to my boost drop-off problem that I have mentioned in this post. What started as an amazingly frustrating and disappointing situation has grown into a great experience in working with APR. I am extremely impressed with APR's commitment to their product and willingness to put time, effort and resources behind the quality of their products and the satisfaction of their customers. All that being said, it has really motivated me to work with APR to find a solution to my ECU tune rather than give up and go with another tuner. At first I was quick to dismiss the APR stage 1 tune and go with a GIAC or Stasis tune, but like I said before, a lot of research went into my decision to choose APR Tune and their commitment to helping me has confirmed to me that I made the right decision. Their willingness to help me has convinced me to work with them on finding a solution rather than acting out of my frustration and impulse... 
So as of now, we suspect that the issue with my boost drop off after hitting 4K RPM and above may be caused by the crap gasoline that we have in California. I went to Infineon Raceway after work and filled my car with 96 octane gas. On the drive home I was unable to replicate the problem. I will continue to test over the next couple of days and report to this thread as I report to APR.


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## Williamttrs (Mar 29, 2013)

1TT1 said:


> You're losing ground under braking/curves not because of your brakes but because of lack of grip from your tires. Stock brake is plenty strong. Stomped on them repeatedly hard and never had brake fade.


 +! I heard a lot of discussion about the TTRS brakes not really being track worthy. With my one and only track day so far, I am beginning to disagree. Not only did I think they performed flawlessly, my driving instructor also commented on the strong braking power. 

It will be interesting to see what the next few months hold.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

psabo said:


> UPDATE: I have been working with Sean at APR on finding a solution to my boost drop-off problem that I have mentioned in this post. What started as an amazingly frustrating and disappointing situation has grown into a great experience in working with APR. I am extremely impressed with APR's commitment to their product and willingness to put time, effort and resources behind the quality of their products and the satisfaction of their customers. All that being said, it has really motivated me to work with APR to find a solution to my ECU tune rather than give up and go with another tuner. At first I was quick to dismiss the APR stage 1 tune and go with a GIAC or Stasis tune, but like I said before, a lot of research went into my decision to choose APR Tune and their commitment to helping me has confirmed to me that I made the right decision. Their willingness to help me has convinced me to work with them on finding a solution rather than acting out of my frustration and impulse...
> So as of now, we suspect that the issue with my boost drop off after hitting 4K RPM and above may be caused by the crap gasoline that we have in California. I went to Infineon Raceway after work and filled my car with 96 octane gas. On the drive home I was unable to replicate the problem. I will continue to test over the next couple of days and report to this thread as I report to APR.


 What about the "crap gas" might be causing the issue? Is the 91 octane tune too aggressive for California 91 octane, causing the car to go into some sort of knock-induced limp mode?


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

Marty said:


> What about the "crap gas" might be causing the issue? Is the 91 octane tune too aggressive for California 91 octane, causing the car to go into some sort of knock-induced limp mode?


 
Not sure Marty. It might have to do with the ethanol percentage but I am still looking for definitive answers on that. I will let you know as soon as I find more out


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## bzflag (Apr 27, 2003)

Marty said:


> What about the "crap gas" might be causing the issue? Is the 91 octane tune too aggressive for California 91 octane, causing the car to go into some sort of knock-induced limp mode?


 Not so much a limp mode, but excessive knock could result in pulling timing, boost, and throttle angle which could lead to a significant "dropping off" feeling the OP was describing.


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

bzflag said:


> Not so much a limp mode, but excessive knock could result in pulling timing, boost, and throttle angle which could lead to a significant "dropping off" feeling the OP was describing.



can this damage an engine?


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## smack_ttrs (Mar 24, 2013)

that's why it's doing what it's doing.
to not damage the engine by pulling timing and thereby stopping the knock before it gets excessive


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

psabo said:


> can this damage an engine?


At the levels you're experiencing, no. It's still WELL within what the ECU can compensate for. But, compensating means reducing power output.

The underlying issue is something particular to the TTRS: The PCV system likes to leak oil into the intake tract. They all do this, but a few seem to be quite a bit worse. Oil has a VERY low octane rating. Even a little bit added to the intake has a very negative impact on the knock resistance of the fuel.

One of the things we do regularly on test cars is change the oil. Mostly, we do it for testing purposes so we can see if there are any bad things going on the in engine. Unfortunately, fresh oil also doesn't leak as much into the intake as older oil. So, our test cars all had fairly clean intake tracts and were perfectly happy with the timing in the V2 tune. 

Also, as you'd expect, we push the tunes as far as we can without getting into dangerous territory. What that means is that if the octane IS lower than 93 (or 91 in your case), the engine will get close to the knock region and the ECU will retard the timing. That's exactly what the ECU is supposed to do and there isn't any real risk. But, it does reduce power when that happens.

We've got a guy that lives near APR that is also experiencing this. He's bringing his car to us next week and we're going to dial the timing back just a bit to give a little more headroom for cars with dirty intake tracts and release another file for the people whose PCVs leak a bit more than others.

So far, we've only seen this on 4 cars out of all that have taken the update. 

If anybody else experiences this issue in the future, we'll have a file available with slightly lower timing to prevent it. Otherwise, you can also clean out your intake with an air compressor and change your oil.


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## Trbofly (Mar 20, 2012)

GIAC was what I was running hen my motor blew, so take that for what it's worth.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> What that means is that if the octane IS lower than 93 (or 91 in your case), the engine will get close to the knock region and the ECU will retard the timing. That's exactly what the ECU is supposed to do and there isn't any real risk. But, it does reduce power when that happens.


Does APR not already offer 91-octane-specific files? The way you've written it, it sounds like the 91 octane folks just run the 93 octane fuel, and rely on the ECU pulling timing to run safely.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

Marty said:


> Does APR not already offer 91-octane-specific files? The way you've written it, it sounds like the 91 octane folks just run the 93 octane fuel, and rely on the ECU pulling timing to run safely.


We have 91 specific files and they work correctly if they get 91 octane fuel into the cylinder. But, a little bit of oil added to the air and then to the 91 octane fuel that is direct injected ends up about 86 or so in the cylinder, hence the problem.

The same problem happens to someone with intake oil issues, a 93 octane file and 93 octane gas. The result there is about 88 octane. 

We don't ever depend on the ECU to pull timing to make the file work right. During testing, our goal is always to have a file that never has to pull any timing, ever. In the real world, though, they're likely to pull a degree or two sometimes.

We've seen the stock Audi tune pull as much as 6 degrees on the tt-rs with 93 fuel. Of course, after that, we changed the oil and cleaned the intake and it went away. When we released this file, we thought we'd set timing properly so nobody would have timing pull issues. For a few people, it needs to be pulled back just a bit more. 

We'll do that next week and provide that file for people that need it.


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

Trbofly said:


> GIAC was what I was running hen my motor blew, so take that for what it's worth.


Thank you. I just read your amazing story.


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> The underlying issue is something particular to the TTRS: The PCV system likes to leak oil into the intake tract. They all do this, but a few seem to be quite a bit worse.
> 
> 
> Otherwise, you can also clean out your intake with an air compressor and change your oil.




Sean, is there a way to remedy the oil leak from the PVC system? Can anything be done to reduce the oil leaking?
thank you for this information


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

Wow, really interesting info Sean. Thanks for sharing this. I for one, had no idea the level of impact the oil was having if introduced to the intake track. Sounds like we need a good fix for this.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Black BeauTTy said:


> Wow, really interesting info Sean. Thanks for sharing this. I for one, had no idea the level of impact the oil was having if introduced to the intake track. Sounds like we need a good fix for this.


I'd honestly suggest changing the oil often, especially if you track the car. The differences were rather large.


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## 311-in-337 (Feb 19, 2003)

Black BeauTTy said:


> Wow, really interesting info Sean. Thanks for sharing this. I for one, had no idea the level of impact the oil was having if introduced to the intake track. Sounds like we need a good fix for this.



Like an oil catch can? 034 Motorsports is said to be working on one for the TTRS. :thumbup:


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

Black BeauTTy said:


> Wow, really interesting info Sean. Thanks for sharing this. I for one, had no idea the level of impact the oil was having if introduced to the intake track. Sounds like we need a good fix for this.


Yes great information!! I too want this to be fixed since oil leaking into the intake directly impacts performance.


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> I'd honestly suggest changing the oil often, especially if you track the car. The differences were rather large.


Can you define "often" for us. I still change mine at 5k intervals. Is that often enough based on what you've seen?


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

311-in-337 said:


> Like an oil catch can? 034 Motorsports is said to be working on one for the TTRS. :thumbup:


It would be great to see if this problem could be fixed rather than just "catching the oil". This should also contribute to depleting oil levels if it is happening consistently right? 

What is the best way to get this problem in front of AoA to see if they can/ would do something about the PVC oil leakage problem.


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## bzflag (Apr 27, 2003)

311-in-337 said:


> Like an oil catch can? 034 Motorsports is said to be working on one for the TTRS. :thumbup:


Any solution to the PCV system is about managing tradeoffs. Stock systems typically work very well at evacuating crankcase gasses, perhaps too well as some are finding.

A recirculating catch can system will reduce the available pressure to vent crankcase gasses through the extra line length, the can itsself, and, in some applications, any block off plates to simplify the system. They have to be monitored and emptied and have the possibility of freezing when used in colder climates. Plus some oil will still make it's way into the intake tract.

Any non-recirculating system is technically against the law for emissions reasons. You can vent a catch can to atmosphere, losing the benefit of using vacuum to draw gasses from the crankcase perhaps losing a hp or 2, but gain the benefit of having no oil in your intake. Some people use a slashcut in the exhaust to pull vacuum from the can and then you get oil in your exhaust. Or you see some people just stick small air filters on there.

It's all tradeoffs, so you'll have to find what you want to gain and what you're willing to sacrifice. APR tends to stick by the OEM solution, so their response will probably be to change your oil frequently and clean your intake tract occasionally. Most catch can systems catch mostly water vapor, a little oil vapor, and are anywhere from a minor to major inconvenience.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

psabo said:


> Sean, is there a way to remedy the oil leak from the PVC system? Can anything be done to reduce the oil leaking?
> thank you for this information


We're working on a hardware solution, but in the mean time, change your oil regularly and occasionally clean out your intake tract.

Our shop manager is working on putting together a procedure for cleaning. This is something that is TT-RS specific, not tune specific. Other tuned cars will probably benefit from this procedure as well.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

Black BeauTTy said:


> Can you define "often" for us. I still change mine at 5k intervals. Is that often enough based on what you've seen?


We're still working out the details on this.



psabo said:


> It would be great to see if this problem could be fixed rather than just "catching the oil". This should also contribute to depleting oil levels if it is happening consistently right?
> 
> What is the best way to get this problem in front of AoA to see if they can/ would do something about the PVC oil leakage problem.


I suspect they already know. Most VAG cars leak a little oil into the intake. It just happens to be more pronounced on the TT-RS and a bigger problem because the TT-RS is VERY timing sensitive. I suspect that might be why they bought an engine for that dude. Leaking oil causes detonation which can grenade engines. The tune might have had something to do with it and it's certainly a scapegoat for Audi, but the oil situation likely contributed more than the tune. (just my humble opinion)


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> We're working on a hardware solution, but in the mean time, change your oil regularly and occasionally clean out your intake tract.
> 
> Our shop manager is working on putting together a procedure for cleaning. This is something that is TT-RS specific, not tune specific. Other tuned cars will probably benefit from this procedure as well.


Thank you very much Sean...This is very helpful!!


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> We're still working out the details on this.
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect they already know. Most VAG cars leak a little oil into the intake. It just happens to be more pronounced on the TT-RS and a bigger problem because the TT-RS is VERY timing sensitive. I suspect that might be why they bought an engine for that dude. Leaking oil causes detonation which can grenade engines. The tune might have had something to do with it and it's certainly a scapegoat for Audi, but the oil situation likely contributed more than the tune. (just my humble opinion)


It doesn't seem like Audi is going to do anything with the oil leaking into the intake since the TTRS has already been out for almost 4 years now and nothing has been done. I wonder how known this issue is with the TTRS in Europe?


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> We're still working out the details on this.
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect they already know. Most VAG cars leak a little oil into the intake. It just happens to be more pronounced on the TT-RS and a bigger problem because the TT-RS is VERY timing sensitive. I suspect that might be why they bought an engine for that dude. Leaking oil causes detonation which can grenade engines. The tune might have had something to do with it and it's certainly a scapegoat for Audi, but the oil situation likely contributed more than the tune. (just my humble opinion)


Where is the primary source of oil physically into the intake? Curious how you guys resolve this for your stage 3 (since that certainly will run closer to the edge than a stage 1 car).


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

Marty said:


> Where is the primary source of oil physically into the intake? Curious how you guys resolve this for your stage 3 (since that certainly will run closer to the edge than a stage 1 car).


PCV system. We don't currently resolve it on our stage 3 other than regular oil changes. It's certainly an issue there too though, that's one of the reasons we're so familiar with the problem.

The other thing that was just pointed out to me by the shop manager is that some oil can also get into the cylinders directly from the crankcase around the rings. That is most easily solved with an oil change.

We're working on some other things that might improve the situation before we have a hardware fix available. In the mean time, we're also testing some different oils and change intervals to come up with a decent compromise for now.


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

```
So far, we've only seen this on 4 cars out of all that have taken the update. 

If anybody else experiences this issue in the future, we'll have a file available with slightly lower timing to prevent it. Otherwise, you can also clean out your intake with an air compressor and change your oil.[/QUOTE]
```

Sean,

So assuming that the boost fade/ drop off issue that I have experienced with the v2 APR stage 1 tune is being caused by the oil leaking into the intake issue that you highlighted above, should I go ahead and update my v2 APR stage 1 tune file with slightly lower timing to prevent the drop off OR should I keep the original v2 tune and work on dealing with the oil leaking into the intake which is the root cause of the issue? 

I am thinking that I would rather attack the root cause of the problem than use the 'work around' by adjusting the timing on the v2 tune. I am assuming that the performance of the 'updated v2 tune file' will be lower than the 'original' v2 APR tune since you are adjusting the timing to accept the lower octane gas that actually is hitting the cylinders.

This is frustrating.... but at least we are finding answers to my original problem. It is frustrating because the oil leak issue seems to be a bigger problem to deal with and because there doesn't seem to be an easy remedy.
Thank you for your continued work on fixing this issue Sean,


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## bzflag (Apr 27, 2003)

psabo said:


> Sean,
> 
> So assuming that the boost fade/ drop off issue that I have experienced with the v2 APR stage 1 tune is being caused by the oil leaking into the intake issue that you highlighted above, should I go ahead and update my v2 APR stage 1 tune file with slightly lower timing to prevent the drop off OR should I keep the original v2 tune and work on dealing with the oil leaking into the intake which is the root cause of the issue?
> 
> ...


I think you're heading in the right direction by wanting to fix the excessing oil vapor problem instead of getting the reduced timing tune. I'd be curious if there was any difference in power between an 'origianl' tune that was pulling timing and a reduced timing tune that had no correction. I think your options as Sean explained them are:

1. Change your oil (APR is still working on a freqency guideline)
2. Clean your intake tract (You could probably DIY this now, but APR is working on a step by step)
3. Wait for a hardware solution from APR, 034, etc. or fab something yourself.


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

bzflag said:


> I think you're heading in the right direction by wanting to fix the excessing oil vapor problem instead of getting the reduced timing tune. I'd be curious if there was any difference in power between an 'origianl' tune that was pulling timing and a reduced timing tune that had no correction. I think your options as Sean explained them are:
> 
> 1. Change your oil (APR is still working on a freqency guideline)
> 2. Clean your intake tract (You could probably DIY this now, but APR is working on a step by step)
> 3. Wait for a hardware solution from APR, 034, etc. or fab something yourself.


Yes, thank you. I just scheduled my oil change for early next week.. like I stated, I would prefer to keep the original APR v2 tune and attack the root cause of the issue. 

I will say that I am encouraged because it has been 2 weeks now and we have uncovered some good information about what is really going on here. This information will benefit all TTRS owners and hopefully will prompt someone like APR or 034 or someone else to come up with a hardware solution like you mention. In a perfect world, Audi would acknowledge the problem AND come up with a fix!!!


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

Lets remember this happened to one car not one hundred or a thousand. There may be more margin in the motor than we think. The root cause may end up being a material defect in the ring or a piston and that is what ultimately led to the failure. Just trying to keep this in perspective.


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

Black BeauTTy said:


> Lets remember this happened to one car not one hundred or a thousand. There may be more margin in the motor than we think. The root cause may end up being a material defect in the ring or a piston and that is what ultimately led to the failure. Just trying to keep this in perspective.


Yeah I hear you, I wish I lived close to APR so that they could run diagnostic tests to rule out any other potential issue.


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## TTRStud (Jul 18, 2013)

I'm just going to play devil's advocate here. Without offending anyone, all I see is a bunch of finger-pointing (the octane, the oil in the intake, the piston rings, blah blah blah), and meanwhile, there are a handful of tunes out there that never had much (or any) issues to begin with, or the need for a second version, or the need for a "low output" file, yada yada yada. Am I the only who has noticed this and wonders why? I mean c'mon, other tuners have to deal with the same "crappy" California fuel, and the same oil being pulled into the intake. Please don't tell me that APR happens to have the only 4 customers whose cars have slightly higher PCV blow-through.

By the way, someone jumping in and trying to justify it by saying "oh, other tuners don't build their tunes properly, or other tuners mess with the safety parameters, etc etc" will be useless. My intention is not to start another tuning dick-measuring contest. At this point, we all know that most tunes out there play by the safety rules, as no one wants a tarnished reputation or be accused of detrimental engine issues.

Again, I truly don't mean to come across as offensive or rude; it's simply that the same threads, about the same issues, in regards to the same products will raise questions.


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

psabo said:


> Yeah I hear you, I wish I lived close to APR so that they could run diagnostic tests to rule out any other potential issue.


Could always do periodic oil analysis.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

TTRStud said:


> I'm just going to play devil's advocate here. Without offending anyone, all I see is a bunch of finger-pointing (the octane, the oil in the intake, the piston rings, blah blah blah), and meanwhile, there are a handful of tunes out there that never had much (or any) issues to begin with, or the need for a second version, or the need for a "low output" file, yada yada yada. Am I the only who has noticed this and wonders why? I mean c'mon, other tuners have to deal with the same "crappy" California fuel, and the same oil being pulled into the intake. Please don't tell me that APR happens to have the only 4 customers whose cars have slightly higher PCV blow-through.


With regards to the oil comments, the car was completely stock with the same issue. 

When we first dynoed / data logged the car, power was down and it was pulling more timing than expected. It wasn't close to the other cars we had in house, including our own. 

This lead us down the path of searching for problems. Coil packs, plugs, leak down tests, air filters, they were all checked. Fuel was replaced - problem still existed. We then bumped the octane with race fuel and everything went away and was back to normal. Something was lowering octane and the recorded timing pull was legit. 

One of the engineers happened to have past experience with oil vapors lowering octane. We changed the oil and everything was suddenly back to normal. After speaking with the customer, we found he was due for an oil change and had tracked the car pretty extensively. Tracking breaks down oil much quicker than normal every day driving. 

Remember, this car was stock and producing the issues we saw. It's not an excuse because there's no reason for an excuse. It's just what we saw, thus why we're passing along the information. 


With regards to the "low output" and "revisions" comment, look at a bunch of the stuff out there right now (not all, but a bunch of it).... It IS low output, and that's all you get. Most of the software available doesn't offer any real gain in torque. It just looks like the factory curve bumped up a little... kinda like this:














:thumbup:


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## Koa1 (Feb 21, 2012)

I'm skeptical of APR's explanation. If this were happening, wouldn't there be dirty intake valves like the RS4? I think someone scoped theirs and posted the pics, which showed the valves were very clean. This car has been out quite a few years overseas and no problems with this over there THAT I KNOW OF.


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

Koa1 said:


> I'm skeptical of APR's explanation. If this were happening, wouldn't there be dirty intake valves like the RS4? I think someone scoped theirs and posted the pics, which showed the valves were very clean. This car has been out quite a few years overseas and no problems with this over there THAT I KNOW OF.


well, since my car is the one with the issue, i would be happy to have some tests run on it to definitively see whether some of these oil issues are present if i knew what to test for and where to go ( dealer etc)


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## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

I've been waiting for a bolt on catch can kit for the RS.


My B5 has a custom one off one installed, and the amount of stuff that gets caught is interesting.
The RS looks like it would be the easiest car ever to do a quick one off. 

Thinking of grabbing a 42DD Ultimate kit and using it.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

Koa1 said:


> I'm skeptical of APR's explanation. If this were happening, wouldn't there be dirty intake valves like the RS4? I think someone scoped theirs and posted the pics, which showed the valves were very clean. This car has been out quite a few years overseas and no problems with this over there THAT I KNOW OF.


We're not done with our analysis. We're getting a car in next week and will do a thorough examination. Right now, this is one thing were familiar with that seems to be a contributing factor. It's by no means a final explanation.

This came from a couple vagcom logs and having a guy test with race gas to up his octane. According to him, it improved with the race gas. But, this is still quite a ways from what we'd call definitive or "solved".

Arin and I posted so people would know this was being worked on and to share some useful technical information.

We should have a detailed analysis next week or the week after and we'll let everybody know what we found.


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## [email protected] (Dec 14, 2012)

joneze93tsi said:


> I've been waiting for a bolt on catch can kit for the RS.
> 
> 
> My B5 has a custom one off one installed, and the amount of stuff that gets caught is interesting.
> ...


I'm not familiar with theirs, but make sure it can flow enough. Crank case pressure is your enemy in this car in a big way.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

all you need to use is 504/507 spec oil, not the 502 garbage american dealers use

http://www.oilspecifications.org/volkswagen.php


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

tdi-bart said:


> all you need to use is 504/507 spec oil, not the 502 garbage american dealers use
> 
> http://www.oilspecifications.org/volkswagen.php


Would you put VW 505 00 spec oils in the garbage category?

I am not sold on the low SAP 504/507 oils, especially as they only seem to be available in a 5w30 weight (vs 5w40 or 0w40 505/502 oils from Motul, Mobil 1, etc.).


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

no idea, see page 19  
http://www.lubrizol.com/EngineOilAdditives/ACEA/ConferencePapers/LowerSAPS.pdf


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

tdi-bart said:


> no idea, see page 19
> http://www.lubrizol.com/EngineOilAdditives/ACEA/ConferencePapers/LowerSAPS.pdf


Though durability is mentioned as a goal, reduced emissions and fuel economy are the primary requirements for the Euro 4 engine oils. Without knowing the specific oils used, usage pattern, and type of vehicle/engine, just showing a dirty valve isn't definitive proof that the the Euro 4 oils are "better" for 2.5L TFSI engines (with performance modifications) subject to "typical" street/track mixed usage.

In general *low SAPS oils have not been embraced *as magically better than mid or high SAPS oils. Euro 4 oils could provide significant benefits for the TT-RS engine, but I for one would like a more thorough analysis and understanding of the trade offs for the 2.5L TFSI engine. 

I would think most TT-RS owners who are enthusiasts will be more concerned with the relative performance of top tier oils when* not subjected *to "long life" 10k+ mile drain intervals. For example, I would rather stay with a 5k mile change interval than give up bearing protection.

Thank you for the information/recommendation in any case. I think that we can agree that running the US dealer provided oil for 15k miles is not a good idea!


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

in europe no vag dealers use 502 anymore, i took my ttrs to a dealer in europe 504/507 was what they put in

anyway i've been using it since new, change it every 10k km, no hiccups here or power loss


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

FWIW, I've only had the dealer oil in from day 1, but changed it on a more aggressive schedule. No hiccups or loss of power here either.


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

Black BeauTTy said:


> FWIW, I've only had the dealer oil in from day 1, but changed it on a more aggressive schedule. No hiccups or loss of power here either.


I have 3,300 miles on my TTRS and getting oil changed this week.


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## lpriley32 (Jul 28, 2012)

I have only had my oil changed by the dealer at the schedules maintenance intervals....sounds like most people are more frequent than that and I should probably be too.


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

question: I am going to the dealer to do an oil change. They mentioned the update they have to the AWD computer module. Will this interfere with the APR flash?


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

psabo said:


> question: I am going to the dealer to do an oil change. They mentioned the update they have to the AWD computer module. Will this interfere with the APR flash?


No. It's just the haldex controller getting reprogrammed. I had it and the brake job done today. Great looking new brakes! I am very appreciative of Audi taking this action.


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

Black BeauTTy said:


> No. It's just the haldex controller getting reprogrammed. I had it and the brake job done today. Great looking new brakes! I am very appreciative of Audi taking this action.


Thank you, is there any noticeable difference in the Haldex reprogram?


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## TTRStud (Jul 18, 2013)

psabo said:


> Thank you, is there any noticeable difference in the Haldex reprogram?


Yes it will make your car more fwd-biased. Most of us have passed on the update, which is optional per Audi.


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## lpriley32 (Jul 28, 2012)

I wouldn't exactly say it is optional. The paperwork regarding the update states that neither Audi nor the dealership will be liable if you have aftermarket parts that will not allow them to do the update. They say to make a note on the job order of this fact before asking for signature. They also state if you decline the update to document that in your customer file. 

I have not gone in for service since the update has come out but that def sounds like some CYA on their part if you refuse and something does fail at a later date.


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## TTRStud (Jul 18, 2013)

lpriley32 said:


> I wouldn't exactly say it is optional. The paperwork regarding the update states that neither Audi nor the dealership will be liable if you have aftermarket parts that will not allow them to do the update. They say to make a note on the job order of this fact before asking for signature. They also state if you decline the update to document that in your customer file.
> 
> I have not gone in for service since the update has come out but that def sounds like some CYA on their part if you refuse and something does fail at a later date.


Interesting, I did not have to sign such statement. The only signature they asked from me was so that they would have on file my declining of the update. I do not have a haldex controller nor do I plan on replacing/modifying the OEM haldex unit. So if something does fail, my car and its components are covered, now or later, as long as it's still under warranty.


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## lpriley32 (Jul 28, 2012)

yeah, im taking my car in Friday for the 25k maintenance so I will have first hand experience then as well. I will most likely decline the update as well.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

today I got v2, it's weaker mid upper range compared to v1.1 just like I showed in my Photoshop graphs, but now I have dyno to prove it, more info later today


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

TTRageS said:


> I just had the new APR version 2 stage 1 software upgrade and I am getting alot of boost fade ( drop-off after hitting 4,000 RPM) It is like the car just hit a dead spot. I specifically waited to get the ECU flash till they came out with their version 2 to correct the issues with version 1...Anyone else having this problem? It took them quite a while for them to correct the misfiring problem that many people reported having with version 1. I am starting to not have faith in their ECU upgrade for this engine. Thoughts? I am thinking of switching to GIAC or Stasis or UM.


here is your 4k drop off


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

Dude, there is no such pull back on my car. It pulls like a freight train to redline. Others who have been in or driven my car can attest to this. Linear power to redline.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

certainly does pull like a freight train, but i want hyperloop pulling


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

psabo said:


> Thank you, is there any noticeable difference in the Haldex reprogram?


No, not on the street. Perhaps on the track but we'll see.


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

tdi-bart said:


> certainly does pull like a freight train, but i want hyperloop pulling


You may need a V10!


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

One more thing on this haldex reprogramming...the real issue being addressed is NOT the progressive shift of torque to the rear at speed. As i understand it it is to address abrupt and rapid rear torque shift at launch to minimize prop shaft failure. The forces at play under launch versus dynamic conditions are night and day. I seriously doubt I'll notice one bit of a difference on the track driving at the limit. I'll get all the rear torque I want and still be able to throttle steer the crap out of this car and come out of corners with the rears totally loaded.


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## TraderGuy (Feb 3, 2013)

Black BeauTTy said:


> One more thing on this haldex reprogramming...the real issue being addressed is NOT the progressive shift of torque to the rear at speed. As i understand it it is to address abrupt and rapid rear torque shift at launch to minimize prop shaft failure. The forces at play under launch versus dynamic conditions are night and day. I seriously doubt I'll notice one bit of a difference on the track driving at the limit. I'll get all the rear torque I want and still be able to throttle steer the crap out of this car and come out of corners with the rears totally loaded.


That's my understanding as well. I'm planning to have the update done along with the new brakes in a couple of weeks.


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

tdi-bart said:


> here is your 4k drop off



yes I am having this issue...


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Black BeauTTy said:


> One more thing on this haldex reprogramming...the real issue being addressed is NOT the progressive shift of torque to the rear at speed. As i understand it it is to address abrupt and rapid rear torque shift at launch to minimize prop shaft failure. The forces at play under launch versus dynamic conditions are night and day. I seriously doubt I'll notice one bit of a difference on the track driving at the limit. I'll get all the rear torque I want and still be able to throttle steer the crap out of this car and come out of corners with the rears totally loaded.


I happily took the update as well. I read on another forum that there was a prop shaft hardware update that was built into ~3/2013 cars and later to increase strength.


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## psabo (Oct 3, 2008)

Marty said:


> I happily took the update as well. I read on another forum that there was a prop shaft hardware update that was built into ~3/2013 cars and later to increase strength.


hi Marty, 

i thought they stopped production on the TTRS around 2/2013.


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