# EPA Orders VW to recall nearly 500,000 vehicles



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Whoops. Looks like our '12 TDI will be headed to the dealer in the next few months...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/b...column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news



New York Times said:


> Volkswagen Is Ordered to Recall Nearly 500,000 Vehicles Over Emissions Software
> By CORAL DAVENPORTSEPT. 18, 2015
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

Wow. That's all I have right now. Wow.


----------



## PJtree23 (Jul 22, 2008)

*oops*

Recall as in reprogram?


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Vague article is vague.

I'm concerned that an ECU reprogram that more aggressively controls for NOx could mean poorer drivability or shorter DPF life...but that's just owner anxiety talking.


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

Numbersix said:


> Vague article is vague.
> 
> I'm concerned that an ECU reprogram that more aggressively controls for NOx could mean poorer drivability or shorter DPF life...but that's just owner anxiety talking.


If I still had my Mk5 TDI I probably would not take the car in for the recall. Not at least until a ton of other people did.


----------



## NathanDetroit (Apr 28, 2012)

This is only for diesels, is that right?


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

If I owned a VW in the recall, I probably wouldn't bother bringing it in.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

Numbersix said:


> Vague article is vague.
> 
> I'm concerned that an ECU reprogram that more aggressively controls for NOx could mean poorer drivability or shorter DPF life...but that's just owner anxiety talking.


probably a reasonable concern.

i wonder if this explains why mine would mysteriously go into terrible idling mode after i came to the first or second stop light following a hot start :laugh:


id love to hear more about how they (the epa) discovered this.
i know ive run across similar things benchmarking before, but it takes a lot of digging to confirm...


----------



## RATHERSMART (Dec 6, 2005)

Wow... VWs can barely tell that they're running or not running. Now EPA claims that the car knows when it's being emissions tested... sounds like crappy reporting to me.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

1985Jetta said:


> If I owned a VW in the recall, I probably wouldn't bother bringing it in.


I was thinking the same thing, but I have a feeling that states will make sure that the affected VINs will be part of a verification database when they go to register each year/next years registration.

thank goodness my VW diesel is the V6, and is NOT part of this recall


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

My guess is if you're still under warranty, they would reflash it anytime you take the car in for anything.

I agree that I'll be advising we hold off on having it reflashed...in fact, I'm going to get the car in for an oil change ASAP ahead of the recall campaign.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Hahahahaha.

Part of me wants to yell "bad Volkswagen! Bad! Bad!" and part of me wants to yell "Stupid EPA! Stupid! Stupid!"

A buddy of mine just got a notice that he might have to send his GTI back to CA for some sort of testing. I bet the gasoline cars are about to get recalled, too.

So as much as I want to yell at VW, this is pretty ingenious and hysterical at the same time. And the fact that it has taken EPA and CARB so long to catch on to the fact that that their test cycles are pretty predictable and could easily be faked out with creative tuning is pretty lame. I mean, I would guess that VW just got caught. What if everyone (GM, Toyota, etc) is doing this? 

OMG, the ****storm that is about to ensue at NHTSA is going to be epic.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

So basically ... every single VW TDI ever since they launched their "clean diesel" campaign to coincide with the US introducing ultra-low sulfur diesel?


----------



## RacingManiac (Mar 19, 2011)

I've heard about stuff like this from my friends who does a lot of vehicle engine testing in the past. I am sure VW is not the only one. Because the parameter of the EPA testing is well known and specific the car can basically guess when it is under test and do things differently....I'd be curious is more will come to light...


----------



## Tuono5740 (Nov 23, 2011)

My 2013 TDI has no DPF :laugh::thumbup:


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

So it's only a recall? I would have expected a heavy fine at the very least. This has happened before with other automakers. Will they ever learn?


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

I wonder if this related to the letter I got from VW a month or so ago, telling me to bring my car in for a software update related to emissions?


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

Numbersix said:


> Whoops. Looks like our '12 TDI will be headed to the dealer in the next few months...
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/b...column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news


Volkswagen has some fixing to do for sure. But what is up with the NY Times saying "The Obama Administration on Friday ordered..."? *The EPA on Friday ordered...* is the correct line. Lots of other "administration" references as well. This was the EPA investigating this in cooperation with CARB. Why turn everything into a political mess and get more people stirred up? How about reporting facts and leaving the drama and political nonsense out of it?

Off soapbox...


----------



## Electron Man (Sep 21, 1999)

Probably related to the regen cycle (using urea compounds) for the NOx catalyst. The EPA emissions test doesn't run long enough to allow the auto-regen cycle for the NOx catalyst to be completed...thus the recall/fines.

IMHO, it's more a signal that the EPA needs to amend their testing method for these cars. A bit of a :screwy: situation, but valid, nonetheless.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

You'reDrunk said:


> I was thinking the same thing, but I have a feeling that states will make sure that the affected VINs will be part of a verification database when they go to register each year/next years registration.
> 
> thank goodness my VW diesel is the V6, and is NOT part of this recall


Geez, that's overkill.


----------



## 2000JettaGLXVR6 (Oct 17, 2002)

Wait, I thought there was no smog on Diesels?


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

atomicalex said:


> Hahahahaha.
> 
> Part of me wants to yell "bad Volkswagen! Bad! Bad!" and part of me wants to yell "Stupid EPA! Stupid! Stupid!"
> 
> ...



This.

Rumor had it that another manufacturer ratted them out. Will be interesting to see how many of them do this to skirt around the technical rules. VW got caught and now has a mess to straighten out. What if there is no easy solution to make these cars compliant? It will also be interesting to see who falls for this within VW. Did a small group of engineers know about it? Or a larger group that goes higher up the food chain? 

opcorn:


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

[email protected] said:


> But what is up with the NY Times saying "The Obama Administration on Friday ordered..."?


Thanks, Obama.


----------



## Eric D (Feb 16, 1999)

PJtree23 said:


> Recall as in reprogram?


Yes.


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> Volkswagen has some fixing to do for sure. But what is up with the NY Times saying "The Obama Administration on Friday ordered..."? *The EPA on Friday ordered...* is the correct line. Lots of other "administration" references as well. This was the EPA investigating this in cooperation with CARB. Why turn everything into a political mess and get more people stirred up? How about reporting facts and leaving the drama and political nonsense out of it?
> 
> Off soapbox...


Newsflash - the Obama Administration currently runs all the executive branch agenices.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

So I too wonder how VW pulled this off, but then again, it could be as simple as looking at the ABS sensors.










It looks like most EPA testing is done on 2-wheel dyno cells, so if the ECU sees the rear wheels are stationary, it could just switch into "On my best behavior" mode for the emissions. In the real world all 4 wheels will be turning, and it could switch to "Screw the environment" mode.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> Did a small group of engineers know about it? Or a larger group that goes higher up the food chain?
> 
> opcorn:


with what it costs to develop software/cals, theres no way this wasnt signed off by someone higher up...


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

Hajduk said:


> So it's only a recall? I would have expected a heavy fine at the very least. This has happened before with other automakers. Will they ever learn?


I'm surprised too. Perhaps a fine is forthcoming. 



[email protected] said:


> This.
> 
> Rumor had it that another manufacturer ratted them out.
> 
> opcorn:


I bet I know exactly who it was--a manufacturer who has received a lot of flack here from a certain powertrain engineer. opcorn:


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

I cannot wait to see how this plays out opcorn:

Here is the letter from the EPA to VW: http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

mhjett said:


> Newsflash - the Obama Administration currently runs all the executive branch agenices.


Thanks captain obvious.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

PlatinumGLS said:


> I cannot wait to see how this plays out opcorn:
> 
> Here is the letter from the EPA to VW: http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf


:laugh: sounds like they smelled something fishy after in use compliance tests almost a year and a half ago... oops.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> Volkswagen has some fixing to do for sure. But what is up with the NY Times saying "The Obama Administration on Friday ordered..."? *The EPA on Friday ordered...* is the correct line. Lots of other "administration" references as well. This was the EPA investigating this in cooperation with CARB. Why turn everything into a political mess and get more people stirred up?


Semantics aside, Jamie, this is a big black eye for the biggest seller of diesel passenger vehicles in the US. 

I can't imagine VW is the only company who is doing this, but even so...I'm not going to be a happy 2x customer if this materially impacts reliability, longevity, drivability, or performance.


----------



## wolfcastle (Jul 28, 2006)

I would go in for the recall, then promptly go and do a performance flash tune and remove my cat :laugh:


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> So I too wonder how VW pulled this off, but then again, it could be as simple as looking at the ABS sensors.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ESC is disconnected during EPA testing. So, its easy to tell.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

*NYT: EPA Orders VW to recall nearly 500,000 vehicles*

I'm still laughing about this. 

I could have programmed this. Look for either a static rpm with the ABS sensor thing or look for a match to a preloaded map .

Hilarious. And there is almost no way to prove it other than running the cars on the street. You'd need steering angles for real world.

Wait until the EU gets wind of this....


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

Numbersix said:


> Semantics aside, Jamie, this is a big black eye for the biggest seller of diesel passenger vehicles in the US.
> 
> I can't imagine VW is the only company who is doing this, but even so...I'm not going to be a happy 2x customer if this materially impacts reliability, longevity, drivability, or performance.


And I wasn't defending them as i stated.


----------



## vwpiloto (Nov 27, 2006)

Regulations and consumer demand are not aligned, and while it's unethical to cheat the system, it does highlight that perhaps we're overly aggressive with how quickly we're imposing new regulations. I can't imagine that many other manufactures aren't do the same thing. This is in many ways similar to what Ford just got caught doing with the F series crash tests.


----------



## SandCastle (Sep 10, 2013)

One reason VW would do this is to improve the actual MPG. There is an apparent consensus in the VW community that VW diesels achieve much better fuel economy than what is advertised, and therefore we conclude that VW is simply being "conservative" Ha!  Now we know why that is -- the "defeat devise" kicks in to improve efficiency on the open road. What other explanation is there? It makes absolutely no business sense for VW to deliberately understate the advertised MPG when so many buyers factor this into their purchase decision and pay a premium own a diesel. But when a customer realizes their diesel car is more efficient than what they expected, they spread the word and eventually VW sells more diesels.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

vwpiloto said:


> This is in many ways similar to what Ford just got caught doing with the F series crash tests.


In in one key way substantially dissimilar: One was beating an industry test; one was circumventing federal regulations.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

atomicalex said:


> Hahahahaha.
> 
> Part of me wants to yell "bad Volkswagen! Bad! Bad!" and part of me wants to yell "Stupid EPA! Stupid! Stupid!"
> 
> ...


Contrary to popular belief, EPA and CARB do not have an unlimited budget. They rely on the Certificate of Conformity from each manufacturer that certifies compliance with all federal emissions rules. They also do spot checks on a small number of actual vehicles, but this is very expensive and time consuming. You would never see any niche models if they had to do it for every single engine/transmission on sale. 



Hajduk said:


> So it's only a recall? I would have expected a heavy fine at the very least. This has happened before with other automakers. Will they ever learn?


Oh there will be fines, and they will be huge. It's probably going to be in the tens of millions range.


----------



## landstuhltaylor (Jul 21, 2011)

If anything this would make me more likely to buy a VW. Bravo


----------



## vwpiloto (Nov 27, 2006)

ByronLLN said:


> In in one key way substantially dissimilar: One was beating an industry test; one was circumventing federal regulations.


Definitely. But the rationale is the same. Meeting the standards leads to sales. When you introduce very precise methods of measuring, then engineers will always design to meet those specific requirements.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

classicjetta said:


> Oh there will be fines, and they will be huge. It's probably going to be in the tens of millions range.


I take that back. The maximum penalty for each violation is $37,500. With 482,000 units affected, that could be a maximum fine of *$18 billion*. Mind you it will *not* actually be that high but the liability here is just unbelievably massive.


----------



## MylesPH1 (Aug 6, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> I'm still laughing about this.
> 
> I could have programmed this. Look for either a static rpm with the ABS sensor thing or look for a match to a preloaded map .
> 
> ...


..and I can't wait to hear the story on how they actually proved this.

I can't imagine my state's air resource board is going to be very lenient on this. They'll almost certainly go above and beyond the EPA's response.


----------



## rlfletch (Jun 11, 2000)

Whisky Tango Foxtrot? This is huge. Purposefully misleading the Federal testing authority is such a huge gamble. There must be a monstrous cost involved to make them take such a big risk. Either performance/economy will take a huge hit or there is an expensive part that will be failing quickly. Personally I an disappointing and any thoughts of getting a Diesel Sportwagon for my wife are shelved for the time being.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> This.
> 
> Rumor had it that another manufacturer ratted them out.


Great rumor, but not true. It was the West Virginia University Center for Alternative Fuels Engines and Emissions.


----------



## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

opcorn:


It'll be interesting to see if there is any performance/MPG difference after these cars are updated.


----------



## bzcat (Nov 26, 2001)

This is blatant violation of the law. Not fudging the number to meet the letter of the law but ignoring the spirit.

I don't think we have seen this level of shenanigan and outright law breaking since the 1980s when Chrysler got caught selling used car with disconnected odometer used by its executives as new cars to unwitting customers.

You have to wonder now whether VW's gasoline engine cars are similarly rigged to pass emission tests.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

The irony of all of this, is VW was actually making diesel inroads in America. When I was selling VWs back around 2001, we could barely GIVE TDIs away. 

Now I see them all over the place and they have their own niche cachet over hybrids and whatnot.

If this is actually true, I daresay this might be the beginning of the end for diesel here in the US. It effectively sends a message that not even the biggest seller of diesel passenger cars can get diesel to be effective without cheating.

Personally, I almost hope that happens. I think hybrids and EVs are winning this war, and now with this news, I think VW deserves this.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

rlfletch said:


> Whisky Tango Foxtrot? This is huge. Purposefully misleading the Federal testing authority is such a huge gamble. There must be a monstrous cost involved to make them take such a big risk. Either performance/economy will take a huge hit or there is an expensive part that will be failing quickly.


i think theres a really good chance the cars take a big mpg hit once they "fix" this


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> So I too wonder how VW pulled this off, but then again, it could be as simple as looking at the ABS sensors.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


interesting, because my TReg TDI is smogged on a 4 wheel dyno....the ONLY 1 in all of Las Vegas.  previously to having the ONLY 4wheel dyno, the TDI AWD diesels were EXEMPT from emissions testing.


----------



## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> i think theres a really good chance the cars take a big mpg hit once they "fix" this


If that happens would be on the hook for cars not achieving the advertised MPG?


----------



## BostonB6 (Nov 16, 2005)

I can't imagine that they're not going to get hit with a HUGE fine from the feds. This was a deliberate act to circumvent regulations, not a defect. I'm also sure that class action lawyers smell blood in the water. 

VW is going to pay through the nose on this one.


----------



## Lackey (Mar 14, 2000)

If the fix has a detrimental effect on power, economy or reliability/longevity, how long do we think it will take for the lawsuits to start coming in?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

classicjetta said:


> I take that back. The maximum penalty for each violation is $37,500. With 482,000 units affected, that could be a maximum fine of *$18 billion*. Mind you it will *not* actually be that high but the liability here is just unbelievably massive.


I can't even describe how hard I'm laughing. Let's also be honest here: The US government is the least of VW's problems if it turns out this same programming has been used in Europe where VW undoubtedly has sold quite a lot more 4-cylinder diesel cars than they ever did stateside. The US will hit them with something, but VW's bigger problem is now going to be fallout in Europe if it turns out they were cheating there too.

Look at how much France has been struggling with diesel-related smog in Paris. I mean, when you have to start restricting cars from even coming in to the city based on their license plate numbers and have government officials saying that they made a "mistake" with giving preference to diesels, I think France will be all over VW. It's not like France and Germany have a long history of being best buds. If Paris is already blaming diesels for smog, going after VW as scapegoat and fining them billions of Euros looks very attractive.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

MylesPH1 said:


> ..and I can't wait to hear the story on how they actually proved this.
> 
> I can't imagine my state's air resource board is going to be very lenient on this. They'll almost certainly go above and beyond the EPA's response.


CARB was involved in the testing that led up to VW coming clean (lulz puns) about the whole thing.


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

Maximum_Download said:


> The irony of all of this, is VW was actually making diesel inroads in America. When I was selling VWs back around 2001, we could barely GIVE TDIs away.
> 
> Now I see them all over the place and they have their own niche cachet over hybrids and whatnot.
> 
> ...


I've been saying for years that, because of emissions regs, passenger car diesels in the first world were approaching their development ceiling. There's only so much that could be done while still staying legal... or in this case, illegal.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

DasCC said:


> If that happens would be on the hook for cars not achieving the advertised MPG?


Highly unlikely, as the fuel economy testing would have been detected by the ECU programming and thus the results would be reflective of operation that meets with federal guidelines.

Short version: They'd probably get closer to EPA numbers, rather than perform better.


----------



## RacingManiac (Mar 19, 2011)

The Hyundai MPG deal a few years back was speculated to be of the similar kind of stunt too. Since that's also a standard test cycle.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

I just sold my VLKAY shares. So much for world domination.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

RacingManiac said:


> The Hyundai MPG deal a few years back was speculated to be of the similar kind of stunt too. Since that's also a standard test cycle.


The Hyundai and Ford numbers were the result of manipulating certain constants that are supposed to be input in for testing. Think of that more like dicking around with a Dynojet's correction factor. 

Volkswagen programmed this into the actual ECUs.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

classicjetta said:


> Great rumor, but not true. It was the West Virginia University Center for Alternative Fuels Engines and Emissions.


It's a little deeper than that. In the end it doesn't matter though.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

PlatinumGLS said:


> I cannot wait to see how this plays out opcorn:
> 
> Here is the letter from the EPA to VW: http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf


You all should read this. There's a ton of good background here. Quoting for page 3. :thumbup:


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

i smell a class action lawsuit emitting from the tailpipes...


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks captain obvious.


Far be it for me to defend NYT, but simply stating what the administration did is hardly turning it into a "political mess," "drama," or "political nonsense" . . .


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

rich! said:


> i smell a class action lawsuit emitting from the tailpipes...


I'm not sure there's a good case here, unless down the road we find that the fix does indeed cause the vehicles to deteriorate faster.


----------



## bzcat (Nov 26, 2001)

ByronLLN said:


> The Hyundai and Ford numbers were the result of manipulating certain constants that are supposed to be input in for testing. Think of that more like dicking around with a Dynojet's correction factor.
> 
> Volkswagen programmed this into the actual ECUs.


Yes... the important thing here is that VW blatantly violated the law. There will be a huge fine coming for sure. 

Hyundai used the wrong number programmed into the dyno. Ford had properly tested the Fusion, and then exploited EPA loophole to extrapolate the MPG for C-Max and MKZ rather than test those cars. Both of those things can be explained away as management oversight issue... VW just outright cheated - the only interpretation here is outright intention to defraud.


----------



## JimNap (Aug 22, 2005)

A little more of an explainer I think in the Detroit Free Press article vs. the NY Times article I seen:

epa-volkswagen-used-software-skirt-emissions-rules/

Also, I hadn't seen it posted yet, but here's a link to the discussion over at TDI Club:

TDI Club thread on VW TDI emissions investigation


----------



## Katmandu (May 26, 2004)

Hajduk said:


> So it's only a recall? I would have expected a heavy fine at the very least. This has happened before with other automakers. Will they ever learn?


*CNN just reported VW will get an $18 BILLION FINE !
*
Is that not heavy enough ? That's in the ballpark what BP had to pay for the Hurricane Katrina clean up.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

You'reDrunk said:


> interesting, because my TReg TDI is smogged on a 4 wheel dyno....the ONLY 1 in all of Las Vegas.  previously to having the ONLY 4wheel dyno, the TDI AWD diesels were EXEMPT from emissions testing.


You're not affected by the recall though. It says only the 4-cyl models are suspected of cheating.


----------



## BostonB6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Katmandu said:


> *CNN just reported VW will get an $18 BILLION FINE !
> *
> Is that not heavy enough ? That's in the ballpark what BP had to pay for the Hurricane Katrina clean up.


The maximum Clean Air Act violation is $37,500 per vehicle, meaning Volkswagen's fine could technically be as high as $18 billion. My guess is that it will be hefty but nowhere near $18b.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

ByronLLN said:


> I'm not sure there's a good case here, unless down the road we find that the fix does indeed cause the vehicles to deteriorate faster.


some lawyer is getting antsy out there and just think of their entire marketing campaign about clean emissions. have to see what the software fix is and related mpgs/dpf/etc.

ok, that is my only two posts for the last few years


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

classicjetta said:


> I take that back. The maximum penalty for each violation is $37,500. With 482,000 units affected, that could be a maximum fine of *$18 billion*. Mind you it will *not* actually be that high but the liability here is just unbelievably massive.





Katmandu said:


> *CNN just reported VW will get an $18 BILLION FINE !
> *
> Is that not heavy enough ? That's in the ballpark what BP had to pay for the Hurricane Katrina clean up.


do you have a link to the article?

i wonder if they just did the same math as classicjetta, and assumed the worst?


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)




----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

*Terrible.*

This is REALLY terrible.

As Americans, we've set emissions limits on vehicles. Rather than comply, a manufacturer decides to cheat, by making its car seem clean to regulators while knowing that, out on the roads, the cars will be far dirtier. "Screw you, Americans, we found a way to cheat and we don't think you'll do anything about it."

All to chase profit.

I hope government regulators exact a penalty large enough to deter VW and other manufacturers from cheating like this again.

Just terrible.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Katmandu said:


> *CNN just reported VW will get an $18 BILLION FINE !
> *
> Is that not heavy enough ? That's in the ballpark what BP had to pay for the Hurricane Katrina clean up.




http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/18/autos/epa-cheating-vw/index.html

no mention of this huge fine other than:

"The EPA did not say how much VW would ultimately be fined for this infraction. "


----------



## JimNap (Aug 22, 2005)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> do you have a link to the article?
> 
> i wonder if they just did the same math as classicjetta, and assumed the worst?




Same amounts quoted in the Detroit Free Press article I mentioned a few posts above...

My earlier post


----------



## Katmandu (May 26, 2004)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> do you have a link to the article?


It was shown on TV as Breaking News a bit ago.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

RATHERSMART said:


> Wow... VWs can barely tell that they're running or not running. Now EPA claims that the car knows when it's being emissions tested... sounds like crappy reporting to me.


What "crappy reporting"?

The New York Times article isn't crappy, it has lots of very good information.

People are so hostile. The EPA just issued the notice today. What in-depth reporting could someone expect today?


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

mhjett said:


> Far be it for me to defend NYT, but simply stating what the administration did is hardly turning it into a "political mess," "drama," or "political nonsense" . . .


Saying the "Obama Administration" did this is a different than saying the EPA or Agency did this.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

BostonB6 said:


> My guess is that it will be hefty but nowhere near $18b.


For comparison, also recently in the news was GM paying $900 million over the airbag fiasco. That was a problem that has been blamed for deaths and injuries, not just dirty air. That is also for something that affected much more than 500k cars. I agree it's also unlikely VW will be hit with the maximum fine.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> For comparison, also recently in the news was GM paying $900 million over the *ignition switch* fiasco. That was a problem that has been blamed for deaths and injuries, not just dirty air. That is also for something that affected much more than 500k cars. I agree it's also unlikely VW will be hit with the maximum fine.


FTFY :thumbup:


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Hajduk said:


> So it's only a recall? I would have expected a heavy fine at the very least. This has happened before with other automakers. Will they ever learn?


No, it's not "only a recall". it's a notice to VW that, unless the EPA is mistaken, VW faces massive penalties.

On the magnatude of $37k per car, I believe, on half a million cars. No, EPA will never collect $18 billion. But if the allegations are true, VW has a huge new liability.


----------



## rstolz (Jun 16, 2009)

Katmandu said:


> *CNN just reported VW will get an $18 BILLION FINE !
> *
> Is that not heavy enough ? That's in the ballpark what BP had to pay for the Hurricane Katrina clean up.


katrina clean up?.... uhhhhh Katrina was 2005, The BP spill was 2010. about the only similarity is that they both occurred in the Gulf.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> Volkswagen has some fixing to do for sure. But what is up with the NY Times saying "The Obama Administration on Friday ordered..."? *The EPA on Friday ordered...* is the correct line. Lots of other "administration" references as well. This was the EPA investigating this in cooperation with CARB. Why turn everything into a political mess and get more people stirred up? How about reporting facts and leaving the drama and political nonsense out of it?
> 
> Off soapbox...


The Environmental Protection Agency is part of the Executive Branch of the United States Government. That branch, and everyone in it, including everyone in the EPA, ultimately reports to the chief executive, currently Barack Obama.

Why can't we say what's undeniably true? Just because some people go ape **** that our president is Barack Obama is no reason to indulge that denial.

Off soapbox...


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Everyone needs to go to Wolfsburg some day and meet the F&E team for VW., They think their balls are bigger than the moon. 

I don't believe that the fine will be anywhere near $18B. At least in the US.

In the EU? I think Brussels might own VW after this is over. :laugh:


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> Rumor had it that another manufacturer ratted them out.


You're an administrator here. Is that really the sort of information you'd like your site to distribute?

Unsourced rumor?

Aim higher.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

Chilcoot said:


> You're an administrator here. Is that really the sort of information you'd like your site to distribute?


:laugh: :facepalm:


----------



## Busydiver (Mar 18, 2013)

*maybe something good will come out of this..*

VW may have to finally accept the fact that the Adblue system is an integral part of the emission system and included in the warranty of the emission system.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

landstuhltaylor said:


> If anything this would make me more likely to buy a VW. Bravo


----------



## 2 doors (Jun 18, 2003)

Does this generation of TDI's use AdBlue/urea injection? If not, can they meet the NOx regulations without it AND without cheating? 

I'd bet that leaving this emissions cheating software "on" all the time would certainly lead to driveability issues. If they severely tweaked parameters to meet emissions, it could run like crap.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

Chilcoot said:


> You're an administrator here. Is that really the sort of information you'd like your site to distribute?
> 
> Unsourced rumor?
> 
> Aim higher.


You should report him to the site ownership. I'm sure they'll deal with him swiftly.


----------



## BostonB6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Well at least we know how EPA is going to pay for cleanup of the Animas river spill that the EPA caused.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Well, ain't that a b**th... just when I was starting to get the kind of mileage that TDI owners have been bragging about for years. I'd been getting roughly 36 mpg in combined driving with my 2013 JSW TDI for the past two years -- nothing to brag about, but definitely better than my old car. But my driving mainly consisted of short 5-10 mile trips around town and some highway driving.

But we recently moved out to the country, where my commute to take my son/pick him up from daycare is 25 miles round trip at a mostly 50 to 55 mph. That gives the engine plenty of time to warm up and get into its groove. Even with some stop and go traffic and stops to do weekly errands, I'm starting to see 41 mpg combined with every fill-up even though my car is rated at just 29/39.

I'm assuming a reflash would trash all that :facepalm:


----------



## BostonB6 (Nov 16, 2005)

ByronLLN said:


> You should report him to the site ownership. I'm sure they'll deal with him swiftly.


Damn you! I just spit out coffee all over my keyboard. 

Hysterical!


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> Saying the "Obama Administration" did this is a different than saying the EPA or Agency did this.


I don't think you realize that lots of other American jurisdictions also have their own "Environmental Protection Agency."

California
Illinois
Guam
American Samoa
Ohio

Making clear that this was done by the Obama Administration helps readers understand which EPA took this action.

**EDITED TO ADD**
I've never seen it around these parts, but if posting privileges here were to start being conditioned on sycophancy , I'd be a shame.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

ByronLLN said:


> You should report him to the site ownership. I'm sure they'll deal with him swiftly.


:drum roll:

We can assume that today, pretty much any control module is on the CANBUS. We can also assume that any ignition and fueling programming is on the ECU. 

We know that the ECU can be can carry multiple programs and be switched between them, thanks to the guys at APR who pioneered valet mode (I think this was APR....). 

We know that the ECU can autodetect things like boost problems, fueling issues, idle faults, etc thanks to OBDII. Which is mandated by EPA. :sly:

Remember when the big deal was chastity belts on ECUs? And then someone came out with direct port programming, because EPA required that ECUs be updatable on the fly?

A Autodetect of running conditions + knowledge of testing cycles = we can determine when the car is being tested for emissions.

B Availability of multiple programs + CANBUS access to other controllers = we can switch between multiple running modes and alert other controllers to the required mode for their operation.

A + B means we can do whatever we want to do, and have been able to do so for about fifteen years now. And EPA has had a fun part in this mess by forcing the conditions to exist that make it super easy to do it. 

Who created this mess? Who?!?

:laugh:


----------



## rimtrim (Dec 17, 2004)

2 doors said:


> I'd bet that leaving this emissions cheating software "on" all the time would certainly lead to driveability issues. If they severely tweaked parameters to meet emissions, it could run like crap.


This is what I was thinking. They wouldn't have done this just for fun. If there were a way to make software that gave adequate performance and met emissions standards, they would have just done that. So I think VW may be in a pickle with more than just the government. If they're forced to reflash these cars so they run like a 1978 Volare, that's not going to go over well.

If nothing else, this indicates that the government is starting to hire regulators who understand something about computers and software. So much of the regulatory regime has historically been focused on hardware, while much of the real action has moved into software.

-Andrew L


----------



## BostonB6 (Nov 16, 2005)

Chilcoot said:


> I don't think you realize that lots of other American jurisdictions also have their own "Environmental Protection Agency."
> 
> California
> Illinois
> ...


I believe that CARB also issued their own Notice of Violation to VW. Neither CARB nor the EPA (which is an agency under the Executive Branch of the US Government that is currently led by President Barak Obama) will certify 2016 VW diesel models until this is resolved to their satisfaction.


----------



## gunbuster (Sep 14, 2012)

RATHERSMART said:


> Wow... VWs can barely tell that they're running or not running. Now EPA claims that the car knows when it's being emissions tested... sounds like crappy reporting to me.


Maybe that's why my 2013 Passat head unit takes what feels like an eternity to fully boot. Perhaps its running a million lines of EPA buster code...


----------



## NoSalt (Sep 26, 2014)

I just lost my job because of this news


----------



## rstolz (Jun 16, 2009)

The cajones of ze germans. They are massive.

knowing them, they probably have calculated exactly how much they gain in sales due to the deception and subsequent overrating of economy figures, and have that cross-referenced with the cost of a recall and associated fines; and they have probably decided that the risk was worth it.

It's basic opportunity cost. you wouldn't gamble that you'd be caught without first being fairly certain that you still come out even or ahead in the event you do get caught.


----------



## Professor Gascan (Sep 11, 2002)

ByronLLN said:


> You should report *her* to the site ownership. I'm sure they'll deal with *her* swiftly.


FTFY

I'm putting my money on them getting fined $500 million for this. It's worse than Hyundai's gaming of the fuel economy test, but not as bad as killing people with defective ignitions.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

NoSalt said:


> I just lost my job because of this news


Why?
You a VW engineer?


----------



## CruznMalibu (Mar 11, 2010)

Just like BO didn’t care what was emailed on Hillary’s servers, I’m pretty sure he doesn’t know or care what vehicles CARB is researching. 
The NYT reference is for the sheep so they can say, “See look BO is a crusader for the environment… blah, blah, blah”.


----------



## SipSlow (Jun 19, 2013)

I love my Jetta TDI 

I haven't really read the EPA document in depth, but from what I skimmed it seems like of course when it's not in defeat mode it runs less "clean". But is the less clean program that much dirtier that it still violates EPA standards? Like if my Jetta isn't in defeat mode, is it really that much dirtier than a Chevy Suburban or like a F150 diesel? 

At this point, all I'm worried about is how this is going to affect the resale value of my car. Because if the values start to drop, I'm selling this thing faster than you can say "People's Car" while I still can.


----------



## guachi (Sep 17, 2015)

NoSalt said:


> I just lost my job because of this news


Do tell.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

guachi said:


> Do tell.


:what:

5 posts???


----------



## guachi (Sep 17, 2015)

Testing showed cheater vehicles with 10-40x the NOx emissions than they should have had. That's huge. Bought a 2015 TDI SE Sportwagen two weeks ago. I wonder if a class action suit will commence and what the differences between the new engine with AdBlue and the old engines are.


----------



## adrew (Aug 15, 2003)

Crazy. I wonder how dirty they are compared to, say, a '99 Mk IV TDI? 

I haven't noticed any soot coming from the newer TDIs and the insides of the exhaust tips are all shiny bare metal.


----------



## Aw614 (May 9, 2001)

adrew said:


> Crazy. I wonder how dirty they are compared to, say, a '99 Mk IV TDI?
> 
> I haven't noticed any soot coming from the newer TDIs and the insides of the exhaust tips are all shiny bare metal.


Same, I was doing VCDS on a mk7 TDI and we were talking about how his exhaust tips never got dirty. Whereas on my 2.0t TSI, the tips would get dirty a lot quicker with soot.


----------



## JimNap (Aug 22, 2005)

I think the blow-up over this topic just broke the server over at TDI Club:

The server is too busy at the moment. Please try again later.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

JimNap said:


> I think the blow-up over this topic just broke the server over at TDI Club:
> 
> The server is too busy at the moment. Please try again later.


:laugh:


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

Yikes. This news coming out on essentially the eve of the updated NMS Passat reveal is not good for VW PR. There's going to be quite a few people working this weekend.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Aw614 said:


> Same, I was doing VCDS on a mk7 TDI and we were talking about how his exhaust tips never got dirty. Whereas on my 2.0t TSI, the tips would get dirty a lot quicker with soot.


TDIs have PM filter to control soot. TSIs do not.

Anyway, from the EPA letter the issue seems to be NOx not PM.


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

VW pays a (far less than 18 bil) fine, reflashes software in the cars. MPG drops slightly and/or AdBlue consumption increases somewhat after the reflash. VW gives some sort of coupon to owners thus affected to ease the butthurt. Perhaps they give owners some sort of increased powertrain warranty also, to assuage fears that component durability is affected by the reprogramming.

Resale hit, if any, is fairly minimal long term assuming the cars don't run like a late 70's carbed car after the "fix", and assuming MPG doesn't drop by some huge amount.

My initial take on how it's ultimately going to shake out.


----------



## RacingManiac (Mar 19, 2011)

adrew said:


> Crazy. I wonder how dirty they are compared to, say, a '99 Mk IV TDI?
> 
> I haven't noticed any soot coming from the newer TDIs and the insides of the exhaust tips are all shiny bare metal.


Probably still way cleaner, but the standard for the testing is a lot tougher now for newer vehicle. I'd imagine the effect for a "test cycle" for only to cheat the EPA program may well mean some shortcut can be taken with durability of some of the emission control parts. And if they have to function full time might lead to quicker failure of those parts.

40x dirtier of a still rather clean standard compare to the dirty diesel of 15+ years ago is still cleaner...

I think at the moment we have a tougher clamp down on the diesel engine than we do gas because NOx and PM emission is something that diesel are characteristically known for, so regs written for them are designed to be tougher to control them. But as newer combustion technology for gas engine are introduced(direct injection mainly), the operating mode of gas engine start to be more similar to diesel and NOx and PM emission are more of an issue now for gas engine too. GPF will probably soon be require for gas car too...

The high soot tailpipe of modern GDI cars is a pretty clear sign of that...


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Maximum_Download said:


> The irony of all of this, is VW was actually making diesel inroads in America. When I was selling VWs back around 2001, we could barely GIVE TDIs away.
> 
> Now I see them all over the place and they have their own niche cachet over hybrids and whatnot.
> 
> ...


At the very least this will have an immediate effect on 2016 TDIs. For sure they have lost their EPA certification and VW can't sell them until they are re-certified - if they are even able to pass emissions now.


----------



## Eric D (Feb 16, 1999)

Is it too early to speculate that Obama will pardon VW for its violation of the rico act.
They are too big to fail. :laugh:


----------



## adrew (Aug 15, 2003)

Hajduk said:


> TDIs have PM filter to control soot. TSIs do not.


I've noticed a lot of direct injected gassers get pretty sooty. I was behind a white Equus the other day that had it all built up above each opening in the bumper.


----------



## simple (Mar 29, 2001)

I'm here for the soot bang. :wave:

This may be the most interesting thing to happen in automobiles since.... the GM ignition switch...damn big corporations can be true slime balls huh?


----------



## rstolz (Jun 16, 2009)

adrew said:


> Crazy. I wonder how dirty they are compared to, say, a '99 Mk IV TDI?
> 
> I haven't noticed any soot coming from the newer TDIs and the insides of the exhaust tips are all shiny bare metal.


It's not soot, it's NOx emmissions, which is a direct and primary contributor to ground level Ozone, which in turn is the primary component of Smog. Which is... well, really bad.

This is not the same as atmospheric ozone (well it's the same stuff, but behaves differently). The Ozone up in the upper atmosphere protects us, when it is created at ground level, it cooks us and suffocates us.

Technically the soot is burnt or partially burnt up fuel and oil. you don't need soot to get NOx.


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

Hajduk said:


> At the very least this will have an immediate effect on 2016 TDIs. For sure they have lost their EPA certification and VW can't sell them until they are re-certified - if they are even able to pass emissions now.


Yes, in the immediate term, VW has to quick come up with a software fix and get those cars certified for sale. I'd think they'd really have to fix any new 2015 on the lot as well.

VW sales departments will probably feel some pain from this, at least in the short run. Maybe in the longer term if the "fix" results in mpg loss or something to where word gets out among the TDI faithful that the cars are less desirable.

Any way you slice it, it's not good. It's just a matter of how bad. They might take a relatively mild hit from this at the dealer level, or more of one. Hard to say right now.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

I got in here as fast as I could.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> I can't even describe how hard I'm laughing. Let's also be honest here: The US government is the least of VW's problems if it turns out this same programming has been used in Europe where VW undoubtedly has sold quite a lot more 4-cylinder diesel cars than they ever did stateside. The US will hit them with something, but VW's bigger problem is now going to be fallout in Europe if it turns out they were cheating there too.
> 
> Look at how much France has been struggling with diesel-related smog in Paris. I mean, when you have to start restricting cars from even coming in to the city based on their license plate numbers and have government officials saying that they made a "mistake" with giving preference to diesels, I think France will be all over VW. It's not like France and Germany have a long history of being best buds. If Paris is already blaming diesels for smog, going after VW as scapegoat and fining them billions of Euros looks very attractive.


My guess? Europe has different regulations for diesels (compared to gassers) and their fuel is quite a bit different. I think this is going to be a U.S. only thing, but hey, I haven't even read the whole thread yet!

This should be entertaining to say the least. I was considering a diesel when I was car shopping over the summer, but this would make me re-think it. Why? Not because of their flagrant dismissal of regulations, but because of the likely hit that drivability and mileage will take. I'll wait to see how it shakes out.


----------



## Professor Gascan (Sep 11, 2002)

Hajduk said:


> At the very least this will have an immediate effect on 2016 TDIs. For sure they have lost their EPA certification and VW can't sell them until they are re-certified - if they are even able to pass emissions now.


There doesn't appear to be a problem with passing the emissions test (since they got through the first time around.) However, VW clearly has some reason for taking a massive risk in installing software to bypass it when the car is in consumer's hands. I'm going to put my money on a durability issue on an expensive part of the emissions system that VW didn't want to be paying for all the time.


----------



## SoLo2pointO (Jul 12, 2001)

Sub'd. This is relevant to my interests.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

Professor Gascan said:


> There doesn't appear to be a problem with passing the emissions test (since they got through the first time around.) However, VW clearly has some reason for taking a massive risk in installing software to bypass it when the car is in consumer's hands. I'm going to put my money on a durability issue on an expensive part of the emissions system that VW didn't want to be paying for all the time.


Right, but EPA won't give them their certificate for 2016 models until they can demonstrate that the bypass no longer exists, and if the testing program was never optimized for real-world driving, then that could cause delays in delivery as they put that entire map through development again.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

DasCC said:


> If that happens would be on the hook for cars not achieving the advertised MPG?


No way are they touching my wife's tdi. It they flash the car and she stops getting 50mpg.... Well, the EPA can s#@k it.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

VW can burn in hell for their circumvention of the emissions testing. 

They'll never sell 800,000 cars here. NEVER!


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

AJB said:


> No way are they touching my wife's tdi. It they flash the car and she stops getting 50mpg.... Well, the EPA can s#@k it.


Screw the environment and kids with asthma, I want to save a few bucks in diesel!
And don't forget about Internet bragging rights!


----------



## RacingManiac (Mar 19, 2011)

Air and water do mix said:


> My guess? Europe has different regulations for diesels (compared to gassers) and their fuel is quite a bit different. I think this is going to be a U.S. only thing, but hey, I haven't even read the whole thread yet!
> 
> This should be entertaining to say the least. I was considering a diesel when I was car shopping over the summer, but this would make me re-think it. Why? Not because of their flagrant dismissal of regulations, but because of the likely hit that drivability and mileage will take. I'll wait to see how it shakes out.


I wouldn't be entirely surprised though if that is the strategy, depends though really on how EU tests for stuff like this. The calibration obviously is unique regionally, but they might well be taking advantage of the tests the same way. If nothing else it'll make the EU regulator pay more attention....


----------



## Double-V (Mar 20, 2001)

BRealistic said:


> Screw the environment and kids with asthma, I want to save a few bucks in diesel!
> And don't forget about Internet bragging rights!


I think you're wrong about the environment, but correct about tough titties for kids with asthma. Thin out the herd a bit. Now if only peanut oil vapours were part of the emissions, we could really cull the weak ones out.


----------



## SipSlow (Jun 19, 2013)

BRealistic said:


> Screw the environment and kids with asthma, I want to save a few bucks in diesel!
> And don't forget about Internet bragging rights!



Well, he won't be the only one. America is indeed the land of gasssssss guzzlers. 

Besides the dawn of the EV is among us. The roads will be clean of emissions soon enough.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

BRealistic said:


> Screw the environment and kids with asthma, I want to save a few bucks in diesel!
> And don't forget about Internet bragging rights!


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

BRealistic said:


> Screw the environment and kids with asthma, I want to save a few bucks in diesel!
> And don't forget about Internet bragging rights!


Please. 

The fleet is getting cleaner and cleaner, this is a bump in the road in regards to changing emissions. Anyone who thinks differently doesn't remember what smog was like in the '70s, that's for certain. Look at pictures of LA or Mexico City from that era as a simple demonstration as to how far we've come.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

No one has mentioned resale value yet? :laugh::beer:


----------



## Eric D (Feb 16, 1999)

Could this be the reason for the 10 spd DSG being dropped?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Professor Gascan said:


> There doesn't appear to be a problem with passing the emissions test (since they got through the first time around.) However, VW clearly has some reason for taking a massive risk in installing software to bypass it when the car is in consumer's hands. I'm going to put my money on a durability issue on an expensive part of the emissions system that VW didn't want to be paying for all the time.


You're required to show that your car can pass emissions after 150,000 miles with no major work to the emissions equipment in order to gain certification. I think you're probably correct in that it's a durability issue and they can't get the emissions equipment to go the full 150,000 miles otherwise.



guachi said:


> Testing showed cheater vehicles with 10-40x the NOx emissions than they should have had. That's huge. Bought a 2015 TDI SE Sportwagen two weeks ago. I wonder if a class action suit will commence and what the differences between the new engine with AdBlue and the old engines are.


Yeah that's out of control. 50% higher or even double would at least be something where you could say it's bad on VWs part, but they'll get it fixed quickly. *10-40x higher NOx emissions* may not even be something they can fix in software alone. They might require new hardware or else put the vehicles on an alternate maintenance schedule where they replace whatever is needed every 30,000 miles or something at manufacturer expense.


----------



## MatadoR32 (Jul 27, 2007)

Eric D said:


> Is it too early to speculate that Obama will pardon VW for its violation of the rico act.
> They are too big to fail. :laugh:



Obama means family :heart:


----------



## Aw614 (May 9, 2001)

Mazda 3s said:


> No one has mentioned resale value yet? :laugh::beer:


All over TDI Club :laugh:


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> You're required to show that your car can pass emissions after 150,000 miles with no major work to the emissions equipment in order to gain certification. I think you're probably correct in that it's a durability issue and they can't get the emissions equipment to go the full 150,000 miles otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah that's out of control. 50% higher or even double would at least be something where you could say it's bad on VWs part, but they'll get it fixed quickly. *10-40x higher NOx emissions* may not even be something they can fix in software alone. They might require new hardware or else put the vehicles on an alternate maintenance schedule where they replace whatever is needed every 30,000 miles or something at manufacturer expense.


Fascinating, helpful post, thank you.


----------



## Robski92 (Sep 26, 2011)

This is literally a thanks Obama situation. Why the heck does the EPA have to be such a huge pain in the ass.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> You're required to show that your car can pass emissions after 150,000 miles with no major work to the emissions equipment in order to gain certification. I think you're probably correct in that it's a durability issue and they can't get the emissions equipment to go the full 150,000 miles otherwise.
> 
> Yeah that's out of control. 50% higher or even double would at least be something where you could say it's bad on VWs part, but they'll get it fixed quickly. *10-40x higher NOx emissions* may not even be something they can fix in software alone. They might require new hardware or else put the vehicles on an alternate maintenance schedule where they replace whatever is needed every 30,000 miles or something at manufacturer expense.


I think you're spot-on. 

I would think they had a contingency plan, especially if they're already certified for 2016 models as posted earlier. I'm going to guess they can do it with software, but it will be at the expense of mileage and drivability. I don't think it'll go too far into reliability, but as I said, this is only a guess. 

It's fascinating to watch, that's for sure! 




Hmmmmmm... 

I wonder if I can get a smokin' deal at the local dealership. They just built a new one at great expense and are advertising all over the place. Talk about bad timing!  :laugh:


----------



## grounded87 (Nov 5, 2002)

The big rig diesels got caught in a similar EPA test fake over a decade ago. 

http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpres...62e7004dc686/93e9e651adeed6b7852566a60069ad2e

How quickly we forget. :beer:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Robski92 said:


> This is literally a thanks Obama situation. Why the heck does the EPA have to be such a huge pain in the ass.


Because it's their job?

I think diesel emissions should be lessened on NOX because of their inherent ability to produce power with a lower CO2 content, which is worsened by the strict NOX emission controls. That being said, they can't just flout the law like this because it doesn't make good sense. 

Just as early airbags were overpowered and killed people because of "Congressional engineering"*, the car companies had to comply until the law was changed for the second generation airbags.

*Congress set the mandate that it had to stop a 160 lb. man going 30 mph while not wearing a seat belt.


----------



## 2 doors (Jun 18, 2003)

TDI Owners: 

1. Claim diminished resale and failure to meet mileage claims
2. Return your car to dealer
3. Demand A3 e-tron
4. Profit


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Air and water do mix said:


> Because it's their job?
> 
> I think diesel emissions should be lessened on NOX because of their inherent ability to produce power with a lower CO2 content, which is worsened by the strict NOX emission controls. That being said, they can't just flout the law like this because it doesn't make good sense.
> 
> ...


tangent, but yeah, 1st gen airbags were deadly


----------



## Katmandu (May 26, 2004)

*Link to News Article*

http://in.reuters.com/article/2015/09/18/usa-volkswagen-idINKCN0RI1YF20150918


----------



## Electron Man (Sep 21, 1999)

AJB said:


> No way are they touching my wife's tdi. It they flash the car and she stops getting 50mpg.... Well, the EPA can s#@k it.


^This. It will be interesting to see how many TDIs actually make it in for the *ahem* ECU reprogramming necessary as part of this recall. :sly:

I'll leave the topic of how this affects future blue-book value of TDIs :facepalm: (and whether TDIs that haven't had the recall done may be worth more $ :what for many other thread(s).


----------



## Katmandu (May 26, 2004)

NoSalt said:


> I just lost my job because of this news


Why ? What did you do ?


----------



## Katmandu (May 26, 2004)

BostonB6 said:


> Well at least we know how EPA is going to pay for cleanup of the Animas river spill that the EPA caused.


No,actually to save tax dollars the job was bid out to private sector Government CONTRACTOR. Not the EPA


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Katmandu said:


> No,actually to save tax dollars the job was bid out to private sector Government CONTRACTOR. Not the EPA


that's how gov't procurement works.

award to the lowest/best responsive and responsible bidder. hate the game, not the player. :thumbup:


----------



## Iroczgirl (Feb 17, 2007)

I wonder how this will affect my friend's 2012...


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

fakereggednoxen


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Robski92 said:


> This is literally a thanks Obama situation. Why the heck does the EPA have to be such a huge pain in the ass.


If high school civics serve, it's because America enacted a law called the Clean Air Act that directed the Executive Branch, now headed by President Barack Obama, to help clean our air of pollutants, including those generated by cars, and because Congresses and Executive Branches ever since have taken that law sufficiently seriously to go after apparent violators like Volkswagen Group of America, Inc.

:banghead::banghead::banghead:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

You'reDrunk said:


> tangent, but yeah, 1st gen airbags were deadly


I don't mean that as a tangent, but as an example of having to comply with a law that you know doesn't make sense. :beer:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Chilcoot said:


> If high school civics serve, it's because America enacted a law called the Clean Air Act that directed the Executive Branch, now headed by President Barack Obama, to help clean our air of pollutants, including those generated by cars, and because Congresses and Executive Branches ever since have taken that law sufficiently seriously to go after apparent violators like Volkswagen Group of America, Inc.
> 
> :banghead::banghead::banghead:


Thanks, Nixon.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

Chilcoot said:


> You're an administrator here. Is that really the sort of information you'd like your site to distribute?
> 
> Unsourced rumor?
> 
> Aim higher.


You're right. I'm very very concerned about things that may or may not be rumors. Lighten up Francis...


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

grounded87 said:


> The big rig diesels got caught in a similar EPA test fake over a decade ago.
> 
> http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpres...62e7004dc686/93e9e651adeed6b7852566a60069ad2e
> 
> How quickly we forget. :beer:


That happpened over here. VW doesn't care about what we do. We aren't even a real market.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> You're right. I'm very very concerned about things that may or may not be rumors. Lighten up Francis...


:laugh:

That guy is more fun than a barrel of dead monkeys.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

Chilcoot said:


> I don't think you realize that lots of other American jurisdictions also have their own "Environmental Protection Agency."
> 
> California
> Illinois
> ...


So it is necessary to say the Bush Administration or Obama Administration versus the Federal Environmental Protection Agency? Really? I think you understand the difference between the meaning between the two.

WTF do you mean posting privileges being conditioned on sycophancy? You can debate anything you want just like I will occasionally (although not very often) state my opinion as well.


----------



## Katmandu (May 26, 2004)

Robski92 said:


> This is literally a thanks Obama situation. Why the heck does the EPA have to be such a huge pain in the ass.


Yea! Screw the EPA ! We want the good old days back like Pittsburgh, Pa I 1901 !


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

Hajduk said:


> At the very least this will have an immediate effect on 2016 TDIs. For sure they have lost their EPA certification and VW can't sell them until they are re-certified - if they are even able to pass emissions now.


They are able to pass emissions - that's the almost amusing thing in this mess. The question is what ramifications will they have if they have to run the cars in "emissions" mode all the time? EPA figures that are closer to the actual test numbers?


----------



## Form Ocean (Feb 6, 2000)

SipSlow said:


> At this point, all I'm worried about is how this is going to affect the resale value of my car. Because if the values start to drop, I'm selling this thing faster than you can say "People's Car" while I still can.





Mazda 3s said:


> No one has mentioned resale value yet? :laugh::beer:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> You're right. I'm very very concerned about things that may or may not be rumors. Lighten up Francis...


:laugh::laugh::thumbup:


----------



## P-Body (Mar 18, 2007)

I love how some people are acting so nonchalant about this.

Some of the same people who crucified Hyundai if I remember right.


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

Katmandu said:


> Yea! Screw the EPA ! We want the good old days back like Pittsburgh, Pa I 1901 !


That's about the output of one of those super freighters, the biggest dozen of which are putting out more pollution than all the damn cars in the entire world combined.


----------



## AirBull (Jan 5, 2013)

Read the EPA letter to VW. How can they claim that VW was using the ECU to alter the SCR to lower emissions whilst testing, on vehicles like the Golf, Jetta, and Beetle that didn't have SCR? Only the MY12 and newer Passats have SCR on the 2.0L TDI's.

Oh and yeah, btw - Only get this "recall" "update" if you want your mileage to go down! :thumbdown:


----------



## oldster1 (Oct 24, 2011)

*calm down*

Wait and see how this shakes down.

Blaming the Gov., Obama, EPA, and whomever you wish is senseless. Kids.

http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpres...dfc8e33b5ab162b985257ec40057813b!OpenDocument


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Form Ocean said:


>


----------



## simple (Mar 29, 2001)

grounded87 said:


> The big rig diesels got caught in a similar EPA test fake over a decade ago.
> 
> http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpres...62e7004dc686/93e9e651adeed6b7852566a60069ad2e
> 
> How quickly we forget. :beer:


wow! The semi trucks did the SAME EXACT THING back then with software. So VW didn't event this ruse. Wow. What a crazy story.


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> Saying the "Obama Administration" did this is a different than saying the EPA or Agency did this.


It's about as different as saying Volkswagen Group versus Volkswagen. 

Regardless there is simply no politicization in the NYT article.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

just got this off of Japlonik, via Automotive News:

"Janet McCabe, acting assistant administrator for the EPA’s Office of Air & Radiation, said that the agency will “hold VW responsible” for recalling the affected vehicles to reduce the excess emissions, but said* no recall order was issued* as part of today’s announcement."


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> I mean, I would guess that VW just got caught. What if everyone (GM, Toyota, etc) is doing this? .


Well actually GM India did get caught. And they fired the requisite engineers, managers , and execs over there and some in Pontiac. 

What I find funny is how the capitalistic rewards system can motivate people to do dumb things for money/promotion. And let's not forget the insane amounts of "leadership" pressure that comes down from above... in a GENERAL manner... and NOT SPECIFIC to something like... refining EPA test modes/etc. They'd be too smart to suggest such a thing. 

Anyways... this pressure from above and motivation from inside... it always results in somebody trying pushing the limits of what is fair and what is cheating. But when the issue is discovered (which is a big grey area, I'm sure), it's not the big execs that get the boot. It is the grunt who... in reality... have little reason to cheat the system. :facepalm:


----------



## 85GTI (Dec 19, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> Hahahahaha.
> 
> Part of me wants to yell "bad Volkswagen! Bad! Bad!" and part of me wants to yell "Stupid EPA! Stupid! Stupid!"
> 
> ...


So what the EPA and others should always assume every manufacturer is cheating? That is a completely impractical stance to take. The agencies would have to completely reverse engineer every piece of hardware and software on every car model. How about companies not be ****holes and do what they are asked to do?


----------



## BostonB6 (Nov 16, 2005)

You'reDrunk said:


> just got this off of Japlonik, via Automotive News:
> 
> "Janet McCabe, acting assistant administrator for the EPA’s Office of Air & Radiation, said that the agency will “hold VW responsible” for recalling the affected vehicles to reduce the excess emissions, but said* no recall order was issued* as part of today’s announcement."


Probably because they don't have a fix just yet. My understanding is that its going to take up to a year for VW to come up with a recall plan.


----------



## jaysvw (Oct 15, 2001)

I'm sure this wont be the last manufacturer forced to issue "recalls" in order to fix these types of shenanigans.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

A recall implies a safety threat, anyway, which is not what this is.

The fix may be mandated, but it won't be a true recall.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

ByronLLN said:


> A recall implies a safety threat, anyway, which is not what this is.


It most certainly is.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> It most certainly is.


Stop.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

ByronLLN said:


> Stop.


You can't censor me. 

#occupytcl


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> You can't censor me.
> 
> #occupytcl


:laugh::laugh:


----------



## cuppie (May 4, 2005)

Numbersix said:


> My guess is if you're still under warranty, they would reflash it anytime you take the car in for anything.
> 
> I agree that I'll be advising we hold off on having it reflashed...in fact, I'm going to get the car in for an oil change ASAP ahead of the recall campaign.


 Close, but not quite. 
Active warranty or no, if it's in the dealership service department, and there's a repair order on it.... 
_Any_ open safety or emissions recalls will be performed. Any carmaker. Doesn't matter. Them's the rules.


----------



## 85GTI (Dec 19, 2000)

bzcat said:


> This is blatant violation of the law. Not fudging the number to meet the letter of the law but ignoring the spirit.
> 
> I don't think we have seen this level of shenanigan and outright law breaking since the 1980s when Chrysler got caught selling used car with disconnected odometer used by its executives as new cars to unwitting customers.
> 
> You have to wonder now whether VW's gasoline engine cars are similarly rigged to pass emission tests.


The damage VW has done to themselves is enormous. As someone else mentioned, the EU is going to be very interested in this as well. I know VW is a giant corporation and periodically things like this happen, but it is very disappointing to me. I always viewed VW as having slightly different standards, certainly different from the American car companies. They have made such a huge effort to be seen as caring about environmental protections and efficiency and now all of that has been cast in doubt. I hope that this turns out to be a decision that a small group or branch or even division manager did on their own instead of something that came from the top.

I think it is time to state my personal motto: Human beings, no damn good.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

You'reDrunk said:


> that's how gov't procurement works.
> 
> award to the lowest/best responsive and responsible bidder. hate the game, not the player. :thumbup:


Wait..


So if it was the EPA that caused the environmental catastrophe, then we should be screaming about the inept government with pitchforks and torches.
But since it was a private contractor that probably just went bankrupt (on the books) to avoid the immense liability.. it's all ok because capitalism?


----------



## rlfletch (Jun 11, 2000)

uncleho said:


> Well actually GM India did get caught. And they fired the requisite engineers, managers , and execs over there and some in Pontiac.
> 
> What I find funny is how the capitalistic rewards system can motivate people to do dumb things for money/promotion. And let's not forget the insane amounts of "leadership" pressure that comes down from above... in a GENERAL manner... and NOT SPECIFIC to something like... refining EPA test modes/etc. They'd be too smart to suggest such a thing.
> 
> Anyways... this pressure from above and motivation from inside... it always results in somebody trying pushing the limits of what is fair and what is cheating. But when the issue is discovered (which is a big grey area, I'm sure), it's not the big execs that get the boot. It is the grunt who... in reality... have little reason to cheat the system. :facepalm:


For once I am in complete agreement with uncleho. The recent Justice department memo about going after jail time for corporate law breakers is long over due but not enough. The HUGE profits these companies make mean there isn't a monetary penalty big enough to hurt them. They make a calculation based on a worst case fine and then just proceed if the profits are big enough. Just like Ford did when calculating the "Cost" of exploding Pintos. Until the people at the very top, who are supposed to be responsible for their ships, are held accountable with jail sentences there will never be a change. Welcome to the United Corporations of America.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

The resale value on my 2.5L MKV just went up. 

Thanks, VW.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

uncleho said:


> Anyways... this pressure from above and motivation from inside... it always results in somebody trying pushing the limits of what is fair and what is cheating. But when the issue is discovered (which is a big grey area, I'm sure), it's not the big execs that get the boot. It is the grunt who... in reality... have little reason to cheat the system. :facepalm:


We have created a business model for improvement that requires this year's numbers to always be better than last year's numbers.
Well.. at some point that is just not possible, and upper management shouldn't rely on plausible deniability to shield themselves from the bullcrap they create.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Lwize said:


> The resale value on my 2.5L MKV just went up.
> 
> Thanks, VW.


I'll give you tree fiddy.


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

rlfletch said:


> For once I am in complete agreement with uncleho. The recent Justice department memo about going after jail time for corporate law breakers is long over due but not enough. The HUGE profits these companies make mean there isn't a monetary penalty big enough to hurt them. They make a calculation based on a worst case fine and then just proceed if the profits are big enough. Just like Ford did when calculating the "Cost" of exploding Pintos. Until the people at the very top, who are supposed to be responsible for their ships, are held accountable with jail sentences there will never be a change. Welcome to the United Corporations of America.


I have to say, I'm starting to see things this way myself.


----------



## jaysvw (Oct 15, 2001)

ByronLLN said:


> A recall implies a safety threat, anyway, which is not what this is.
> 
> The fix may be mandated, but it won't be a true recall.


Splitting hairs man. Recall, mandated repair, a formal request to pickup your free bag of popcorn and lounge around on dirty couches watching CNN, it really doesn't matter from a customer perspective, you will have to bring the car back if you live in a state that conducts emission testing.


----------



## TheGermanExperience (Dec 11, 2002)

I can't wait until all diesel's are off the road - they are rolling mini coal power plants and are at the end of their life cycle, IMO. I'm super tired of not being able to drive around and sniff clean air on a daily basis without some sooty smelly diesel mucking up my space. Big rigs, UPS trucks, mail trucks, smaller delivery trucks and euro vans, landscapers, SCHOOL BUSES (poor kids), and worst of all bros in their pickups with stacks rolling stupid coal. 

You can troll every diesel forum and see first hand that the current emissions equipment needed to clean them up just jacks up EGR temps and clogs up the whole system. A truly clean diesel with the higher price of this equipment and upkeep really makes the cars not financially workable. Also, the people who circumvent these filters should be fined heavily. People wonder why there's so many incurable disease today (asthma, cancer, allergies, autism, alzheimer's, etc) and who is to know whether any of these are a result of these pollutants (soot particles are so small they easily penetrate right into your lungs). Maybe this sounds extreme but my point is it's time to clean this mess up and it's something that can be solved. And I love how the EPA and Obama are so evil that people would rather pollute and breathe in nasty air. "That's how the greens make their money!!" Well good job lining the other evil polluters' pockets with money, much better folks they are. Sorry for the rant - about to make the commute home and breathe in a bunch more diesel.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

rlfletch said:


> Welcome to the United Corporations of America.


Corporations are people too.

Though the Pinto situation is a bad example imo.
There are probably hundreds of known concerns about any product.
They have to quantify their liability costs somehow so they can determine which issues can be resolved at a practical cost and which ones are just a liability.


----------



## cuppie (May 4, 2005)

ByronLLN said:


> A recall implies a safety threat, anyway, which is not what this is.
> 
> The fix may be mandated, but it won't be a true recall.


 Incorrect, sir. 
Any regulation that a car is out of compliance with? Recall. 
You have your safety recalls (the wheels might fall off! The car could shut down while driving!), your emissions recalls (emissions out of spec; OBD readiness bits don't set correctly; faults can't be read out properly with _some_ generic OBD II scan tools (seriously!); etc.), hell, even labelling recalls. 
But, recalls they are. Every one of those bulletins starts with pretty much the same boilerplate, and the words *PERFORM THE PROCEDURE OUTLINED IN THIS SERVICE INFORMATION ON ALL AFFECTED VEHICLES BEFORE CUSTOMER DELIVERY OR THE NEXT TIME THEY ARE IN THE SHOP FOR MAINTENANCE OR REPAIRS. * 
(yes, that's a copy-paste from a bulletin here.) 
(of course, the exact verbiage varies from carmaker to carmaker. That's just the one I work for.)


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

85GTI said:


> So what the EPA and others should always assume every manufacturer is cheating? That is a completely impractical stance to take. The agencies would have to completely reverse engineer every piece of hardware and software on every car model. How about companies not be ****holes and do what they are asked to do?


You haven't posted since 2013 and this is the first thread you come back to? Or dusting off an alias... :laugh:


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

cuppie said:


> Incorrect, sir.
> Any regulation that a car is out of compliance with? Recall.


Implies is the word used..and yes, to the average person a recall implies a safety issue.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> You haven't posted since 2013 and this is the first thread you come back to? Or dusting off an alias... :laugh:


someone is watching THIS thread like a hawk!!!


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

You'reDrunk said:


> someone is watching THIS thread like a hawk!!!


Just bored... 

Figured this thread would bring out all the best posts today. 

I will admit this will be a major cluster to watch. What a mess...


----------



## esrballa (Oct 8, 2008)

That is ridiculous, I hope they get the max fine.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Just bored...
> 
> Figured this thread would bring out all the best posts today.
> 
> I will admit this will be a major cluster to watch. What a mess...


:thumbup:


also noted is that VWoA pulled ALL of their diesel adds from YouTube. 

from a PR standpoint, this is not good.

in the end, I really doubt this will be any worse than the GM ignition lock debacle. it will cost VWoA, but they won't go out of business for it. I guess the long term question will be how well they resolve the issue regarding the software and how it will affect the cars once fixed. if it hurts the drive-ability and mileage, it will definitely hurt the diesel image.


----------



## 85GTI (Dec 19, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> You haven't posted since 2013 and this is the first thread you come back to? Or dusting off an alias... :laugh:


Not sure what you are getting at . . .

I saw the article elsewhere and wondered what VWVortex had to say about it. There was nothing on the splash page so I looked in the forums. I've been a VW fan since the 70s so this really cheeses me off. Thus my "sudden" interest in the forums.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

esrballa said:


> That is ridiculous, I hope they get the max fine.


I think a max fine would be grossly excessive.

Both sides will bring in accountants and actuaries to figure out how much money VW stood to gain through this fraud, multiplied by the chance that regulators would catch it.

Whatever the fine winds up being, it needs to be greater than that figure, to deter other manufacturers from making a similar business choice.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

Hmmm... just did my 40k. I'm not due back at the dealer for another 10k. I hope we get an idea about what this means by then.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

You'reDrunk said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> 
> also noted is that VWoA pulled ALL of their diesel adds from YouTube.
> ...


Just saw a VW Clean Diesel ad on TV though a few minutes ago though. Don't know how much lead-time they have with those.


----------



## vwpiloto (Nov 27, 2006)

Mazda 3s said:


> Just saw a VW Clean Diesel ad on TV though a few minutes ago though. Don't know how much lead-time they have with those.


Did you read the fine print on the ad? It might have stated that the "claims made are viable only when the rear wheels are stationary and the front wheels are rotating at 30 mph."


----------



## Soul Man (Dec 2, 2000)

You'reDrunk said:


> from a PR standpoint, this is not good.


My perception of VW has taken a serious hit today. And you all know it's far from being the only case of them being arrogant. This time, it's more or less the icing on the cake. 

Some people are going to work over the weekend, that's for sure :laugh:

Edit : might have to fix that avatar


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

vwpiloto said:


> Did you read the fine print on the ad? It might have stated that the "claims made are viable only when the rear wheels are stationary and the front wheels are rotating at 30 mph."


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

TheGermanExperience said:


> Maybe this sounds extreme


Ya think? All diesels off the road? Like that's ever gonna happen.


----------



## RatBustard (Jun 15, 2007)

AZGolf said:


> It looks like most EPA testing is done on 2-wheel dyno cells, so if the ECU sees the rear wheels are stationary, it could just switch into "On my best behavior" mode for the emissions. In the real world all 4 wheels will be turning, and it could switch to "Screw the environment" mode.


they also do testing on rolling roads and engine test stands, so that would have been caught. most likely, this was done in the emissions, fueling, and timing tables on the calibration, and detecting specific conditions. the EPA uses standard cycles (FTP cycle for example), so those conditions could have been identified by the tables on the ECM and altered for the EPA cycle.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

vwpiloto said:


> Did you read the fine print on the ad? It might have stated that the "claims made are viable only when the rear wheels are stationary and the front wheels are rotating at 30 mph."


A solution presents itself:


----------



## jaysvw (Oct 15, 2001)

You'reDrunk said:


> in the end, I really doubt this will be any worse than the GM ignition lock debacle.


You don't say? :laugh: Not much comparison between people dying in preventable accidents and VW trolling the EPA for a few extra MPG.


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

Demanding a recall amid "allegations"? Cart before the ox? Must the allegations not be first proven before any demands of a recall can be made?


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

jaysvw said:


> You don't say? :laugh: Not much comparison between people dying in preventable accidents and VW trolling the EPA for a few extra MPG.


Don't be so sure.

In one situation there was an unexpected quality issue that could cause a crash that was not properly red flagged to higher ups for years.
In the other situation- the company intentionally programmed their car's computers to cheat the EPA test.

Incompetence and bad company structure versus intentionally cheating.


----------



## Bozzimus (Sep 2, 2013)

This is too funny. So the 130 lb-weakling coal-rollers in their big Dodges get a pass, while the responsible 4-cylinder TDI driver gets hosed?


----------



## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

vr6pilot said:


> Demanding a recall amid "allegations"? Cart before the ox? Must the allegations not be first proven before any demands of a recall can be made?


VW already admitted to installing a defeat device. read pg. 4 of the .pdf

#Switchgate


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Bozzimus said:


> This is too funny. So the 130 lb-weakling coal-rollers in their big Dodges get a pass, while the responsible 4-cylinder TDI driver gets hosed?


LD truck vs car

no comparison in the EPAs ludicrous mind :screwy:


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Bozzimus said:


> This is too funny. So the 130 lb-weakling coal-rollers in their big Dodges get a pass, while the responsible 4-cylinder TDI driver gets hosed?


If a diesel truck owner alters the federal emissions, they can be fined.
Coal rolling requires emission modifications.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

BRealistic said:


> Don't be so sure.
> 
> In one situation there was an unexpected quality issue that could cause a crash that was not properly red flagged to higher ups for years.
> In the other situation- the company intentionally programmed their car's computers to cheat the EPA test.
> ...


I'd hazard a guess GM knew long ago the issues about the ignition locks and the damages it could do.....also, they got a free walk when the original GM went BK.....liability went out the window.


----------



## vr6pilot (Jul 5, 2000)

DasCC said:


> VW already admitted to installing a defeat device. read pg. 4 of the .pdf
> 
> #Switchgate


these threads are too long


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

vr6pilot said:


> Demanding a recall amid "allegations"? Cart before the ox? Must the allegations not be first proven before any demands of a recall can be made?


According to the US EPA, VWoA has *ADMITTED* the substance of today's allegation.

From today's New York Times:


----------



## jcha (Jun 11, 1999)

Man, after driving my MkIV for 16 years, I finally bite the bullet and buy a Golf TDI three weeks ago. Where's a "REFUND?!?!" GIF from the movie Breaking Away when you need it!

edit: here it is.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

You'reDrunk said:


> I'd hazard a guess GM knew long ago the issues about the ignition locks and the damages it could do.....also, they got a free walk when the original GM went BK.....liability went out the window.


It's a very interesting story, actually.

The original quality paperwork identified that a certain amount of force was desirable on the ignition lock to avoid it slipping. The part was designed that way. Consumers flipped out and complained that it was too difficult to turn the switches, and after a decent amount of documentation on that part (mostly filed to NHTSA), the engineering staff redesigned the switch to be easier to turn while still trying to stay within the design parameters to avoid it slipping. 

If you look carefully at the press surrounding the issue, there was a point where coverage pretty much dried up. That was the day that GM showed their quality books to NHTSA, showing that they had responded pretty much they way the system was designed to work and addressed the problem of people who couldn't start their cars.

The fine for GM wasn't higher because NHTSA knew that it was all they could get away with. GM took responsibility because they could afford to do so, and it was good corporate PR to do so.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

Bozzimus said:


> This is too funny. So the 130 lb-weakling coal-rollers in their big Dodges get a pass, while the responsible 4-cylinder TDI driver gets hosed?


Ain't no stock truck rolling coal.


----------



## KARMANN_20V (May 25, 2005)

Hmmm, maybe buying a used TDI in a couple weeks before the recall is issued and importing it to Canada wouldn't be a bad idea if our $ wasn't in the crapper. Thanks Harper!


Oh, and this:


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

1985Jetta said:


> Ya think? All diesels off the road? Like that's ever gonna happen.


No, but remember VW is fighting an uphill battle with consumer perception regarding diesel, and they are the largest retailer of diesel cars in the US. This is going to really, REALLY tarnish the TDI Clean Diesel message with people who are only recently considering it.

VW cannot afford bad TDI publicity. Further, if it really takes a year to develop a fix, it's likely the 2016 TDIs will not be allowed to be sold, which means massive buyback and no TDIs while they fix the issue. That's on top of the fines and the horrible PR. I'm also assuming the fix doesn't negatively impact the performance of the fuel efficiency. If it does, VW may be looking at compensation or buyback of the cars in the field. This is technically fraud, unlike the Hyundai and Ford fuel economy issues, and the Mustang Cobra horsepower issue. VW knowingly did this, which means I suspect buybacks and compensation are coming.

And if they pull the TDIs, they will have a massive marketing job ahead of them if and when the cars do re enter the market.

I think there is a real chance this could sink TDI here in this market.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> A solution presents itself:


Amateur!


----------



## chernaudi (Oct 6, 2006)

As I posted in the Audi thread, I believe that a lot of these problems are due to the US doing their own thing an the FIA, UN, EU and US not agreeing on universal standards for vehicles.

The way I see it, one standard, the more cars that people can sell anywhere in the world and the less pain there is for auto makers having to deal with standards.

I do feel that if the US wants to be a global player in the auto industry, we can't always keep going our own way with things.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

chernaudi said:


> As I posted in the Audi thread, I believe that a lot of these problems are due to the US doing their own thing an the FIA, UN, EU and US not agreeing on universal standards for vehicles.
> 
> The way I see it, one standard, the more cars that people can sell anywhere in the world and the less pain there is for auto makers having to deal with standards.
> 
> I do feel that if the US wants to be a global player in the auto industry, we can't always keep going our own way with things.


Ah, so it's really the US government that's at fault here. VW is blameless.

Got it. Ridiculous, but got it.


----------



## TangoRed (Sep 7, 2005)

chernaudi said:


> As I posted in the Audi thread, I believe that a lot of these problems are due to the US doing their own thing an the FIA, UN, EU and US not agreeing on universal standards for vehicles.
> 
> The way I see it, one standard, the more cars that people can sell anywhere in the world and the less pain there is for auto makers having to deal with standards.
> 
> I do feel that if the US wants to be a global player in the auto industry, we can't always keep going our own way with things.


delete this


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

Chilcoot said:


> I think a max fine would be grossly excessive.
> 
> Both sides will bring in accountants and actuaries to figure out how much money VW stood to gain through this fraud, multiplied by the chance that regulators would catch it.
> 
> Whatever the fine winds up being, it needs to be greater than that figure, to deter other manufacturers from making a similar business choice.


I'm the last person to be speaking in favor of government regulations, but in this case, it APPEARS as though VW maliciously circumvented the regulations.

This is bad enough. Maybe if it was accidental I could be more forgiving.

And even worse, the apparent circumvention resulted in NOx 10-40 TIMES above standard. To me that is bad.

If VW is smart they will work out a settlement IMMEDIATELY, but I hope it is significant:
1. They deserve to be punished for willfully breaking the law. It's the deliberatness of this that angers me, an unfortunate mistake I could forgive. The government sees it similarly. The violation is not the worst part, it is the deliberateness and cover-ups that call for punative damamges.
2. Serve as an example to others considering breaking the law. These are the best (and practically speaking, the only real) deterents


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

chernaudi said:


> As I posted in the Audi thread, I believe that a lot of these problems are due to the US doing their own thing an the FIA, UN, EU and US not agreeing on universal standards for vehicles.
> 
> The way I see it, one standard, the more cars that people can sell anywhere in the world and the less pain there is for auto makers having to deal with standards.
> 
> I do feel that if the US wants to be a global player in the auto industry, we can't always keep going our own way with things.


Or automakers could just follow the damn law.


----------



## chernaudi (Oct 6, 2006)

Or we can make regulations that are inline with the rest of the world and not go our own way for the sake of it.

It's all self-serving BS anyways: VW probably wanted to make a profit by circumventing a regulation, and the EPA want to tax them for it. It's all about money and greed on either side. Same ****, different day. Business and government do it all the time. Out for themselves, for an extra buck, and everyone's basically as bad about it.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

jaysvw said:


> Splitting hairs man. Recall, mandated repair, a formal request to pickup your free bag of popcorn and lounge around on dirty couches watching CNN, it really doesn't matter from a customer perspective, you will have to bring the car back if you live in a state that conducts emission testing.





cuppie said:


> Incorrect, sir.
> Any regulation that a car is out of compliance with? Recall.
> You have your safety recalls (the wheels might fall off! The car could shut down while driving!), your emissions recalls (emissions out of spec; OBD readiness bits don't set correctly; faults can't be read out properly with _some_ generic OBD II scan tools (seriously!); etc.), hell, even labelling recalls.
> But, recalls they are. Every one of those bulletins starts with pretty much the same boilerplate, and the words *PERFORM THE PROCEDURE OUTLINED IN THIS SERVICE INFORMATION ON ALL AFFECTED VEHICLES BEFORE CUSTOMER DELIVERY OR THE NEXT TIME THEY ARE IN THE SHOP FOR MAINTENANCE OR REPAIRS. *
> ...


They mean different things in the eyes of the law. A car under recall cannot be legally resold. That has huge implications for the secondary market.


----------



## Techun (Dec 27, 2006)

chernaudi said:


> Or we can make regulations that are inline with the rest of the world and not go our own way for the sake of it.
> 
> It's all self-serving BS anyways: VW probably wanted to make a profit by circumventing a regulation, and the EPA want to tax them for it. It's all about money and greed on either side. Same ****, different day. Business and government do it all the time. Out for themselves, for an extra buck, and everyone's basically as bad about it.


Of all the things in the world, trying to reduce vehicle emissions is low on the greed list.

If vw can't make a clean engine for the US, they shouldn't lie and cheat to peddle their crap on our shores.


----------



## Señor Peligro (Aug 6, 2009)

As soon as I read this article on Google news, I came straight here.


----------



## 85GTI (Dec 19, 2000)

chernaudi said:


> Or we can make regulations that are inline with the rest of the world and not go our own way for the sake of it.
> 
> It's all self-serving BS anyways: VW probably wanted to make a profit by circumventing a regulation, and the EPA want to tax them for it. It's all about money and greed on either side. Same ****, different day. Business and government do it all the time. Out for themselves, for an extra buck, and everyone's basically as bad about it.


Pollution regulations are not arrived at whimsically, so we don't "go our own way for the sake of it." EPA does not tax anyone the IRS does. The Gas Guzzler Tax was created by Congress and is collected again by the IRS. Some people think the EPA created and collect the tax.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

chernaudi said:


> It's all about money and greed on either side. Same ****, different day. Business and government do it all the time. Out for themselves, for an extra buck, and everyone's basically as bad about it.


No, not at all.

It's about money for VW. For the government, the money's just a means to exact compliance.

The US Treasury will bring in about $3 trillion this year. While the key EPA regulators may get promoted for doing a good job, it won't be because they squeezed every last nickel out of VW. Government workers who do this sort of thing almost never get a piece of the recovery.


----------



## fknlo (Jun 30, 2004)

Come on with a buy back!

My _best_ 2 highway tanks have matched the EPA estimate. Any recall ****ery to fix this will almost definitely hit my MPG's. Just take the car back to save me the hassle of getting in on the inevitable class action lawsuit.


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

RATHERSMART said:


> Wow... VWs can barely tell that they're running or not running. Now EPA claims that the car knows when it's being emissions tested... sounds like crappy reporting to me.


"Gaming" the EPA test is not exactly new. The various Corvette manual transmissions with the automatic overdrive or the forced 1->4 shift on light acceleration (as in the EPA test) are examples. However, it appears that the EPA and other regulators consider ECU programming along these lines to cross the line from "gaming" to "cheating" in that it is not readily visible to owners or regulators like the Corvette manual transmission stuff.


----------



## dodger21 (Jan 24, 2011)

85GTI said:


> So what the EPA and others should always assume every manufacturer is cheating? That is a completely impractical stance to take. The agencies would have to completely reverse engineer every piece of hardware and software on every car model. How about companies not be ****holes and do what they are asked to do?


Looks liike they did it in 1998 with all the big rig engine manufacturers. In fact, they were proud they got 95% of the OEM HD diesel companies fined.


Bozzimus said:


> This is too funny. So the 130 lb-weakling coal-rollers in their big Dodges get a pass, while the responsible 4-cylinder TDI driver gets hosed?


Guess what? The EPA is cracking down hard on the tuners who do this. A couple have gone out of business. Those were the legitimate ones.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

chernaudi said:


> Or we can make regulations that are inline with the rest of the world and not go our own way for the sake of it.


So, in other words, we should all follow China's lead?



tjl said:


> The various Corvette manual transmissions with the automatic overdrive or the forced 1->4 shift on light acceleration (as in the EPA test) are examples. However, it appears that the EPA and other regulators consider ECU programming along these lines to cross the line from "gaming" to "cheating" in that it is not readily visible to owners or regulators like the Corvette manual transmission stuff.


This sort of thing gets a pass because it applies both to the test and the real world. Skip-shift is legal because it's universal.


----------



## TangoRed (Sep 7, 2005)

tjl said:


> "Gaming" the EPA test is not exactly new. The various Corvette manual transmissions with the automatic overdrive or the forced 1->4 shift on light acceleration (as in the EPA test) are examples. However, it appears that the EPA and other regulators consider ECU programming along these lines to cross the line from "gaming" to "cheating" in that it is not readily visible to owners or regulators like the Corvette manual transmission stuff.


This isn't even remotely the same. Skip Shift kicks in during specific conditions in real-world driving, unlike VW's ECU ****ery.


----------



## d.tek (Nov 28, 2004)

Give us a TDI 4-motion Sportwagen and I promise to forgive you, VW.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Señor Peligro said:


> As soon as I read this article on Google news, I came


TMI.

Though this certainly has all the ingredients for a good gang bang.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

BRealistic said:


> TMI.
> 
> Though this certainly has all the ingredients for a good gang bang.


Yep. Larry checked in a few pages back.


----------



## 29_MALE_SOCAL_SPICY (Jun 16, 2008)

classicjetta said:


> Great rumor, but not true. It was the West Virginia University Center for Alternative Fuels Engines and Emissions.


Virginia always screws it up for the other states. I hate your 50MPH roads and undercover cops


----------



## GTI-DNA (Feb 18, 2006)

Double-V said:


> I think you're wrong about the environment, but correct about tough titties for kids with asthma. Thin out the herd a bit. Now if only peanut oil vapours were part of the emissions, we could really cull the weak ones out.


Hey, A big Fark you ya big jerk. My kid has peanut allergies AND asthma.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

29_MALE_SOCAL_SPICY said:


> Virginia always screws it up for the other states. I hate your 50MPH roads and undercover cops


_West_ Virginia. 

Normally I don't mean that to be complimentary...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

TangoRed said:


> This isn't even remotely the same. Skip Shift kicks in during specific conditions in real-world driving, unlike VW's ECU ****ery.


Yeah exactly, I remember driving a C5 and being frustrated that it kept throwing me in 4th gear. It very much worked on cars in the real world as they were delivered to customers.


----------



## GTI-DNA (Feb 18, 2006)

You'reDrunk said:


> that's how gov't procurement works.
> 
> award to the lowest/best responsive and responsible bidder. hate the game, not the player. :thumbup:


And then allow cost over runs that will eclipse the original cleanup cost by at least 5 times.


----------



## WinterisComing (Oct 25, 2012)

*Some guy in a basement just found out*

And he doesn't seem happy


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

ByronLLN said:


> _West_ Virginia.
> 
> Normally I don't mean that to be complimentary...


Hey, A big Fark you ya big jerk. My entire family is from West Virginia AND have high emissions.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

WinterisComing said:


> And he doesn't seem happy


To embed videos, it needs to be http, not https.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

> Volkswagen Group of America, Inc., Volkswagen AG and Audi AG received today notice from the US Environmental Protection Agency, US Department of Justice and the California Air Resources Board of an investigation related to certain emissions compliance matters.
> VW is cooperating with the investigation; we are unable to comment further at this time.


http://www.greencarreports.com/news...iolated-epa-rules-500k-cars-recalled-breaking


----------



## tincanman99 (Oct 19, 2000)

I find this pretty amusing. I am far from upset. I would not hesitate to buy a diesel in the least. Frankly this is a non-issue. 

Realize the US govmt is strangling the life out of companies with the endless regulations and bullish**. They wonder why companies don't want to operate in the US, regulations and interference are the primary reason. 

I am even more amused with all the social just morons expressing their angst that their car is not "green" because it pollutes. Dude, get a grip. No car is "green". 

Nobody is going to jail and they may pay a fine but thats about it.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> To embed videos, it needs to be http, not https.


HOLY F***ING S***!!!!

Even Jamie has to bow to the brilliance of that one


----------



## WinterisComing (Oct 25, 2012)

AZGolf said:


> To embed videos, it needs to be http, not https.


Thank you sir


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

tincanman99 said:


> Realize the US govmt is strangling the life out of companies with the endless regulations and bullish**. They wonder why companies don't want to operate in the US, regulations and interference are the primary reason.
> 
> I am even more amused with all the social just morons expressing their angst that their car is not "green" because it pollutes. Dude, get a grip. No car is "green".


If the Govt. didn't step in with environmental regulations, we'd be living in Beijing. 

Also, every other company who sells diesel cars in the US has been able to meet these regulations without cheating and/or lying about it.


----------



## KARMANN_20V (May 25, 2005)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Also, every other company who sells diesel cars in the US has been able to meet these regulations without cheating and/or lying about it.


Exactly! Just look at the V6 TDI


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Also, every other company who sells diesel cars in the US has been able to meet these regulations without cheating and/or lying about it.


Yeah- Honda.. er um.. Mazda... crap.. er um Toyota... .. dang.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

BRealistic said:


> Yeah- Honda.. er um.. Mazda... crap.. er um Toyota... .. dang.


Well there was that one company that one time who did.


----------



## TangoRed (Sep 7, 2005)

tincanman99 said:


> Realize the US govmt is strangling the life out of companies with the endless regulations and bullish**. They wonder why companies don't want to operate in the US, regulations and interference are the primary reason.


Yeah, it's such a US-specific thing. Doing business in the EU is just a walk in the park for everyone in comparison.


----------



## R32Schwagdog (Nov 2, 2008)

Just an opinion. those that don't post often have best all saved for last.

I would be willing to bet this manufacture will turn this around and market this as an achievement, just like Cat, Cummins and the like did after they got cheating. Before they even got the penalty, they had a strategy lined up. They were at my customers door bragging that they hit tier III emission 1 year before everyone else had the mandate to do so. That was in large their penalty. The fine was nothing.

They will pay. But, more likely, they will face the bigger challenge of moving forward with stricter regulations to offest the emissions they "didn't create on paper" by employing the next technology sooner than those around them to offset their pollutants. You watch how quickly VW marketing turns this in their favor. Remember the EPA doesn't shut down business... just makes money off those who don't comply


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Also, every other company who sells diesel cars in the US has been able to meet these regulations without cheating and/or lying about it.


That remains to be seen.

The regulators in Europe have been wondering aloud why in-service emissions from modern cars (not just diesels) are substantially higher than predicted based on the "official" certification tests.

There is a distinct possibility that this issue is more widespread than VW, and more widespread than just North America, and not just diesels, although diesels and direct-injection gasoline engines are the ones with the most potential scrutiny ...


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Not surprised to see this news and it makes a little more sense now why VWoA was able to offer so many diesels when other automakers like Honda & Mazda couldn't get past the emissions hurdle. 

I doubt there will be much publicity over this issue.


----------



## SmokinDiesel (Feb 16, 2002)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Also, every other company who sells diesel cars in the US has been able to meet these regulations without cheating and/or lying about it.


All one of them...


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

SmokinDiesel said:


> All one of them...


Don't BMW and Mercedes sell diesels here? And Chrysler?


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Also, every other company who sells diesel cars in the US has been able to meet these regulations without cheating and/or lying about it.


That we know of.

Right now we know of several who have done so, so I think that line of argument is done for.


----------



## Venom21 (Jul 3, 2015)

This is even funnier now.


----------



## apizzaparty (Mar 6, 2011)

Meanwhile diesel trucks


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

^I ain't even mad


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Late to the party and unwilling to read the thread; question: do the impacted cars use urea injection in teh exhaust or are these cars that didn't need it to meet emission requirements?


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> Late to the party and unwilling to read the thread; question: do the impacted cars use urea injection in teh exhaust or are these cars that didn't need it to meet emission requirements?


The lost of TDIs includes ones with urea injection.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Silly_me said:


> Late to the party and unwilling to read the thread; question: do the impacted cars use urea injection in teh exhaust or are these cars that didn't need it to meet emission requirements?


Apparently the lean-NOx-trap cars (Jetta, Golf 2009-2014) are the worst offenders, but the notice does cover the Passat (which has used DEF since the outset) and the 2015 models (which all use DEF).


----------



## firstorbit84 (Feb 25, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks captain obvious.


Do you really not think Obama wasn't briefed about something this big before the letter went out?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

GoFaster said:


> Apparently the lean-NOx-trap cars (Jetta, Golf 2009-2014) are the worst offenders, but the notice does cover the Passat (which has used DEF since the outset) and the 2015 models (which all use DEF).


Thanks, I always kinda wondered about VW on that given how MB went full piss in on the tech.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Mazda 3s said:


> Don't BMW and Mercedes sell diesels here? And Chrysler?


I just did a quick search on fueleconomy.gov. Using their power search, I specified model year 2015, MSRP under $40k, diesel, 4-cyl. It matched 16 cars, 13 of which are VWs. The other 3 are:

BMW 328d
Chevy Cruze
MB GLK250 Bluetec


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

BRealistic said:


> Hey, A big Fark you ya big jerk. My entire family is from West Virginia AND have high emissions.


Tudor's Biscuit World strikes again.


----------



## zigster38 (Jun 20, 1999)

*The Beginning of The End*

This is the beginning of the end for diesels in America, tdi clubbers aside...

The second stab in the heart will be the development of cheaper electric vehicles - hybrids are here and the 200 mile range electrics just around the corner from Nissan, Chevy, Ford, and yes even today's painted bride VW.

The final death rattle to diesel's corpse will be the resumption of higher gas prices. November will mark the low and in 3 years gas will be 5 bucks a gallon. That means expensive diesel in most places.


Bye.


----------



## BetterByDesign (Sep 7, 2004)

syncro87 said:


> VW pays a (far less than 18 bil) fine, reflashes software in the cars. MPG drops slightly and/or AdBlue consumption increases somewhat after the reflash. VW gives some sort of coupon to owners thus affected to ease the butthurt. Perhaps they give owners some sort of increased powertrain warranty also, to assuage fears that component durability is affected by the reprogramming.
> 
> Resale hit, if any, is fairly minimal long term assuming the cars don't run like a late 70's carbed car after the "fix", and assuming MPG doesn't drop by some huge amount.
> 
> My initial take on how it's ultimately going to shake out.



A certain amount of sufferage will still need to be displayed because EPA and all that. If you are going to eat 18B or whatever it could be before lititgation, it's usually best to play along and not be smug about it.


----------



## BetterByDesign (Sep 7, 2004)

cuppie said:


> Active warranty or no, if it's in the dealership service department, and there's a repair order on it....
> _Any_ open safety or emissions recalls will be performed. Any carmaker. Doesn't matter. Them's the rules.


Of course, the dealership service department. They have free cookies.

More likely TDI will become a black market; GTGs, repairs and breaking codes under the cover of darkness; a whole generation of rogue drivers and nomadic families always on the move. Because TDI. 

:laugh:


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

Two weeks into my 2015 Sportwagen TDi ownership (Love the car otherwise), this message has ruined an otherwise decent evening. We sold our trusty Prius for this car, specifically for the TDi fuel economy. I am going to be livid if the fix greatly affects performance, fuel economy, reliability, or re-sale value. We were cross shopping the TDi (What my wife wanted) against the Honda HR-V (What I wanted), I lost when my wife said she hated the HR-V seats. 

Now I get to tell her how we should have got the HR-V after all :banghead:


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

Not taking "Scooter" (her name) in to a dealer ever


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

Seems like the EPA/ Govt will be creating more harm by forcing VW to "fix" or "reprogram" these cars to run cleaner, if the ill-side effect is a major fuel economy hit. Or perhaps the "fix" is a self destruct program, which grenades each cars motor conveniently right after the warranty period expires, thus reducing the cars value to scrap.


----------



## vwlifer27 (Jun 15, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> *They are able to pass emissions* - that's the almost amusing thing in this mess. The question is what ramifications will they have if they have to run the cars in "emissions" mode all the time? EPA figures that are closer to the actual test numbers?


Hold up....are you are saying that even with the 10-40% higher NO readings in "everyday mode", they are still able to meet EPA ratings?


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

Cutandthrust said:


> Or perhaps the "fix" is a self destruct program, which grenades each cars motor conveniently right after the warranty period expires, thus reducing the cars value to scrap.


I thought that was a standard German feature?


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> I thought that was a standard German feature?


Oh, come on.
Replacing the engine every 30k miles is just normal maintenance.
Don't be such an obvious German car basher just because "some hypothetical companies" are able to supposedly make cars that even last even when maintenance is lackadaisical.


----------



## 85GTI (Dec 19, 2000)

vwlifer27 said:


> Hold up....are you are saying that even with the 10-40% higher NO readings in "everyday mode", they are still able to meet EPA ratings?


I'm wondering how they were able to meet state emissions testing. Maybe the emissions cheat gets triggered when they connect to the OBDII. Unless the states specs are at a lower level.


----------



## Mightion (Mar 19, 2008)

...I'm glad I ordered a gas engine Golf.


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

> The device is programmed to detect when the car is undergoing official emissions testing, and to only turn on full emissions control systems during that testing. Those controls are turned off during normal driving situations, when the vehicles pollute far more heavily than reported by the manufacturer, the E.P.A. said.


:thumbup:  

I :heart: VW


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

vwlifer27 said:


> Hold up....are you are saying that even with the 10-40% higher NO readings in "everyday mode", they are still able to meet EPA ratings?


I'm saying that when put through a regular EPA test, it passes. It wasn't till the car was indepently tested in a non-EPA specific manner that there was an issue with emissions.


----------



## VarianceVQ (Jun 26, 2005)

Hawk said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> I :heart: VW


Yeah, I imagine a guy that owns a shirt that says "question authority" would in this instance.


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

So for those of us who are one year into a three year lease on a '14 TDI SW with two more years of included scheduled maintenance, this means...?


----------



## Ronan1 (Mar 5, 2008)

Skizzle1111 said:


> So for those of us who are one year into a three year lease on a '14 TDI SW with two more years of included scheduled maintenance, this means...?


As someone who just leased a 2015 A3, it will be interesting to see the real-world MPG and power after the flash. I'm sure if either are affected negatively it won't be good for VW....


----------



## CarLuvrSD (Jan 15, 2002)

Air and water do mix said:


> Thanks, Nixon.


And Nixon was a Republican, so there you go. :facepalm:


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Ronan1 said:


> As someone who just leased a 2015 A3, it will be interesting to see the real-world MPG and power after the flash. I'm sure if either are affected negatively it won't be good for VW....


VW's situation is a new one.
There have been situations in the recent past where the manufacturers overstated peak hp output or used chosen means to get higher "EPA test" estimated mpg numbers.
In those situations the manufacturers offered free customers gifts, cash or even buybacks.

But in this situation.. how has the customer been harmed?
If the reflashed mapping results in mpg in line with the EPA estimates AND the peak HP is withing industry tolerances, I don;t see what damages the customers will be seeking.
VW intentionally programmed their inline 4 TDI cars to run dirty when not actually being emission tested- which gave the consumer better performance.
Losing something you were never supposed to have is not damages.

:beer:


----------



## MarkusMK7 (Oct 18, 2014)

Probably just an excuse to pay for the mess they made a month ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Gold_King_Mine_waste_water_spill


----------



## radiospace (Jul 31, 2000)

I can't believe some people are laughing about this. This is terrible news for VW, for enthusiasts, for owners (especially of the effected cars). Holy crap. It just makes me feel sick inside. 

They've done something incredibly stupid and the repercussions will probably be going on for 5 years (or longer) in terms of VW's business in the U.S. And if this spreads to the EU.... wow.

For those asking how consumers have been harmed, if you test drove a VW diesel, and bought it based on its performance, and it turned out that performance hinged on the fact that they were running the engine in an illegal manner, and returning the engine to conform to EPA regulations hurts your performance (whether acceleration or MPG), then you've been deliberately mislead, and cheated, and you have a very strong case for a lawsuit to have them buy your car back.

Yes, they could be on the hook for buying EVERY ONE of these cars back for the full purchase price -- because who wouldn't take them up on that offer, getting your money back on a 5 year old car? What a disaster for VW. Who thought this was a good idea? Who approved this ****?

I was daydreaming about a GTD for my next car. I guess those dreams are over.

Sigh.


----------



## CarLuvrSD (Jan 15, 2002)

MarkusMK7 said:


> Probably just an excuse to pay for the mess they made a month ago.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Gold_King_Mine_waste_water_spill


I thought of that. It helps restore credibility after the spill and yesterdays embarrassing congressional testimony. But then I heard the other news that could influence the timing and the severity of the accusations. 

Today GM was found criminally liable by a federal judge for the deaths in the ignition switch scandal. Yet the Obama justice department has chosen not to charge executives known to have culpability. There were no big headlines about that today. 

That aside. I believe the accusations of the "10-40 times higher emissions" is an exaggeration. Those figures sound implausible to me. Lets wait for VW to respond. I bet they have some plausible defenses and mitigating factors to offer. IMO there was meant to be shock factor in today's announcement.


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

BRealistic said:


> Screw the environment and kids with asthma, I want to save a few bucks in diesel!
> And don't forget about Internet bragging rights!


If driving a diesel family hatchback is your idea of bragging rights, there is something positively wrong with you.


----------



## Cole Orlling (Mar 18, 2015)

I believe Shomegrown made the comment a while back that he wasn't sure why VW didn't see the same problems with DPFs as HD trucks do. I guess now we know.

Everyone with a TDI now gets to enjoy the same major fuel economy, performance, and reliability hit that has been killing the trucks since '08. Enjoy.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> I just did a quick search on fueleconomy.gov. Using their power search, I specified model year 2015, MSRP under $40k, diesel, 4-cyl. It matched 16 cars, 13 of which are VWs. The other 3 are:
> 
> BMW 328d
> Chevy Cruze
> MB GLK250 Bluetec


Uh, why are you limiting it to just four cylinders and $40k? There are a lot more passenger vehicle diesels than that.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Venom21 said:


> This is even funnier now.


That was amazing. Everything about it was amazing. 

Ok, back to reality.

Whatever happens over here may be peanuts compared to what happens in the EU. The one thing tha might save VW over there is that emissions-wise, water quality is more important than air quality in the EU, while air quality domintes in the US. This is simply because the EU is downwind of NA, and the US is downwind of China. We have had air quality problems since China switched on. The EU has some local air quality issues, but not big blanket issues like we have had. 

Anyway, we own an affected car, and I'm now trying to figure out how we can avoid the "upgrade". I'm also in the amused camp, mostly because I appalud the very simple engineering required to do this and consider what VW did to be basically "self-chipping". 

In fact, VW should propose to make the code switchable by the consumer. You want to run in EPA mode? Good for you. Don't do anything. You want to run in normal mode? Click your left turn signal and hit the horn twice. Thank you and have a nice trip.


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

radiospace said:


> I can't believe some people are laughing about this. This is terrible news for VW, for enthusiasts, for owners (especially of the effected cars). Holy crap. It just makes me feel sick inside.
> 
> They've done something incredibly stupid and the repercussions will probably be going on for 5 years (or longer) in terms of VW's business in the U.S. And if this spreads to the EU.... wow.
> 
> ...


For perspective, what should really make you feel sick is that GM knew about an ignition switch defect for years that lead to the deaths of over 100 people. 

Cheating on emissions tests doesn't seem worth feeling sick over.


----------



## filterxg (Mar 23, 2015)

I didn't see this article earlier but very good.
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/18/vw-air-rule-violation-allegations-stunning-18b-fine-unlikely/

After spending the last day reading everything on this here is my 2 cents.

I think its likely newer models with adblue tanks can get by with a software update and perhaps a modified maintenance cycle. There should very little or no impact to economy or performance (reliability would be the biggest concern, and that's still small). 

Older models with NOx traps may require insanely expensive hardware fixes, or software that does reduce economy, create more soot, reduce performance, and reduce reliability. How VW handles these owners will be a big test on how committed the are to the US market.


Sent from my ASUS_Z00A using Tapatalk


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

CarLuvrSD said:


> Today GM was found criminally liable by a federal judge for the deaths in the ignition switch scandal. Yet the Obama justice department has chosen not to charge executives known to have culpability. There were no big headlines about that today.
> 
> That aside. I believe the accusations of the "10-40 times higher emissions" is an exaggeration. Those figures sound implausible to me. Lets wait for VW to respond. I bet they have some plausible defenses and mitigating factors to offer. IMO there was meant to be shock factor in today's announcement.


Those stories came out Thursday, not yesterday, and they *were* big news. 

VW responded by admitting guilt to the EPA.


----------



## ATL_Av8r (Oct 17, 2002)

ByronLLN said:


> Those stories came out Thursday, not yesterday, and they *were* big news.
> 
> VW responded by admitting guilt to the EPA.


Don't bother responding to trolls who try to make crap like this partisan. :banghead::facepalm:


----------



## SoTxBill (Jan 14, 2001)

AZGolf said:


> So basically ... every single VW TDI ever since they launched their "clean diesel" campaign to coincide with the US introducing ultra-low sulfur diesel?



No.. the 2013 passat diesel is not mentioned.. nor a few others.


----------



## fknlo (Jun 30, 2004)

filterxg said:


> Older models with NOx traps may require insanely expensive hardware fixes, or software that does reduce economy, create more soot, reduce performance, and reduce reliability. How VW handles these owners will be a big test on how committed the are to the US market.


Bring on the buy back!


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

The most interesting thing about this IMO is that this might explain why VW 4-cylinder diesels are usually judged as better than everyone else's diesels. VW group might have had to cheat to accomplish this perception.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

2.0T_Convert said:


> The most interesting thing about this IMO is that this might explain why VW 4-cylinder diesels are usually judged as better than everyone else's diesels. VW group might have had to cheat to accomplish this perception.


Wouldn't be the first thing VW has under-rated, amirite?



SoTxBill said:


> No.. the 2013 passat diesel is not mentioned.. nor a few others.


I keep seeing this, but I think somebody just omitted some information somewhere. This is from the letter the EPA wrote. The 2013 Passat gets its own line because it was not certified with the Golf-family cars (due to Urea, I'm certain; note that all of the 2015 models were grouped together, when VW switched over to Urea injection for all of the U.S.-market TDIs), but it's definitely in there.


----------



## firstorbit84 (Feb 25, 2006)

MarkusMK7 said:


> Probably just an excuse to pay for the mess they made a month ago.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Gold_King_Mine_waste_water_spill


Seriously? Do you know anything about that situation?

They didn't put the hazardous waste there.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

firstorbit84 said:


> Seriously? Do you know anything about that situation?
> 
> They didn't put the hazardous waste there.


But maybe if we bring it up every 7-8 pages of this thread, we can make it true!


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Mazda 3s said:


> Uh, why are you limiting it to just four cylinders and $40k? There are a lot more passenger vehicle diesels than that.


Anything over $40k is a lifestyle purchase or a work vehicle, or a combination of the two. The important segment of the market for public perception is vehicles under $40k or so because that's the kind of stuff that a large portion of the population can identify with most easily.


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

Mazda 3s said:


> Uh, why are you limiting it to just four cylinders and $40k? There are a lot more passenger vehicle diesels than that.


bmw 328d
audi a3
mercedes e250
cruze
bmw 535d
audi a6
audi a7
audi a8
bmw 740

I wouldnt call that a lot.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

atomicalex said:


> That was amazing. Everything about it was amazing.


Yeah.
Germans supporting the idea that the police will go everywhere, even onto private property, and arrest anybody that fits a certain criteria.
Seems so unlikely.
I wonder if they had a follow up ad with the special Green Camps for all these detainees to get retrained?





J-Tim said:


> If driving a diesel family hatchback is your idea of bragging rights, there is something positively wrong with you.


You are not knew here.
You know that TDI owners love to brag about their amazing MPG.


----------



## oldster1 (Oct 24, 2011)

$37,500 fine per vehicle= $18 Billion.

Good on ya EPA and Thank You I.C.C.T, the International Council on Clean Transportation.


http://www.theicct.org/


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

dodger21 said:


> Guess what? The EPA is cracking down hard on the tuners who do this. A couple have gone out of business. Those were the legitimate ones.


Can you link me to more info on this?


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

radiospace said:


> For those asking how consumers have been harmed, if you test drove a VW diesel, and bought it based on its performance, and it turned out that performance hinged on the fact that they were running the engine in an illegal manner, and returning the engine to conform to EPA regulations hurts your performance (whether acceleration or MPG), then you've been deliberately mislead, and cheated, and you have a very strong case for a lawsuit to have them buy your car back.


But this area is so vague.. the car "feels slower".
If that argument worked to get a buyback, I think 50% of new car buyers would claim that after 6 months.
If the real world engine output and mpg are tested to within allowed tolerances to the manufacturer specifications and advertised numbers, I just don't see a legal case period.
Any lawyers here to chime in on this?... because having something removed that you were not supposed to get in the first place is not an actual loss according to the law imho.


----------



## JDub8 (May 24, 2008)

BetterByDesign said:


> A certain amount of sufferage


Boss, you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


----------



## Egz (May 30, 2002)

JDub8 said:


> Boss, you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


That's why I'm voting to end women's suffrage. They shouldn't have to experience that in the 21st century.


----------



## Rav_VW (Apr 2, 2005)

And meanwhile, a single large cargo ship docking in SF bay emits more pollution than all of California's diesel cars combined in a year.


----------



## wolfcastle (Jul 28, 2006)

I highly doubt that anoyone will get their car bought back by vwoa.

if anything...there will be a class acton and people who bought these cars will get a few free tanks of gas and vw will pay a huge fine.


----------



## dodger21 (Jan 24, 2011)

TyrolSport said:


> Can you link me to more info on this?


H&S and Edge Products are the 2 biggest. 

http://www.hardworkingtrucks.com/epa-fines-dpf-delete-manufacturers-millions/

H&S Tuning (Motorsport side still remains active building engines) closed its doors. All other manufacturers immediately released updates that if the programmer was capable of turning off the EGR or DPF, those functions were disabled. Now if you have a pre-updated tuner or an old H&S, they're worth their weight in gold. 

Now the company who threw H&S under the bus has radically changed "The Diesel Power Challenge". It's a huge fiasco, a complete neutering of the challenge, and shows how much ad money is worth.


----------



## BeBop! (Jun 18, 2009)

wolfcastle said:


> I highly doubt that anoyone will get their car bought back by vwoa.
> 
> if anything...there will be a class acton and people who bought these cars will get a few free tanks of *diesel* and vw will pay a huge fine.


Fixed.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

shawshank redemption said:


> bmw 328d
> audi a3
> mercedes e250
> cruze
> ...


You forgot 

RAM 1500
Audi Q5
Audi Q7
BMW X3
BMW X5
Mercedes ML-Class/GLE-Class
Mercedes GL-Class
Jeep Grand Cherokee


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

wolfcastle said:


> I highly doubt that anoyone will get their car bought back by vwoa.
> 
> if anything...there will be a class acton and people who bought these cars will get a *few free tanks of gas* and vw will pay a huge fine.


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

Mazda 3s said:


> You forgot
> 
> RAM 1500
> Audi Q5
> ...



Previous guy said cars.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

^ Semantics. Those vehicles are classified as light duty vehicles and are subject to the same emission standards as cars.


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

Venom21 said:


> This is even funnier now.


Holy Sheeit!

How Apropos


----------



## nm+ (Jan 6, 2006)

Rav_VW said:


> And meanwhile, a single large cargo ship docking in SF bay emits more pollution than all of California's diesel cars combined in a year.


A: california actually requires that ships use different fuels within 24 nm.
B: then ****, why do anything to reduce pollution? Long Beach harbor's existed in the 70s and yet, *somehow* LA air is way, way cleaner today, with more cars on the road, than it ever was in the 70s or 80s.

This arguement is akin to "why ban assault? Murder still happens."


----------



## Slushbox254 (Aug 9, 2015)

Oh those pesky Germans and their toxic gasses...

Seriously though, this is going to completely tarnish all the work that VW and the other manufacturers have put into changing public perception about Diesel. People are going to look at "Clean Diesel" as a joke just like "Clean Coal".


----------



## bubuski (Jun 14, 2001)

nm+ said:


> *A: california actually requires that ships use different fuels within 24 nm.*
> B: then ****, why do anything to reduce pollution? Long Beach harbor's existed in the 70s and yet, *somehow* LA air is way, way cleaner today, with more cars on the road, than it ever was in the 70s or 80s.
> 
> This arguement is akin to "why ban assault? Murder still happens."


Wow, I never knew California had so much pull


----------



## nm+ (Jan 6, 2006)

bubuski said:


> Wow, I never knew California had so much pull


Dunno if that is sarcasm, but: http://www.arb.ca.gov/ports/marinevess/ogv.htm


----------



## Cole Orlling (Mar 18, 2015)

dodger21 said:


> H&S and Edge Products are the 2 biggest.
> 
> http://www.hardworkingtrucks.com/epa-fines-dpf-delete-manufacturers-millions/
> 
> ...



I have an XRT Pro on my 6.4 PSD. I wanted to move up to a Mini Maxx but you can't get one for less than $1,500-2,000 now.


----------



## bubuski (Jun 14, 2001)

Not sarcasm, just me being impressed.


----------



## nm+ (Jan 6, 2006)

bubuski said:


> Not sarcasm, just me being impressed.


California got environmental protections long before the rest of the US, which allows it to basically rule itself within the state. This makes people who don't live here or weren't alive/here in the 80s to remember what real pollution looked like (see: Beijing) get all butt hurt despite the fact that it doesn't impact them at all.* It also recognizes our unique geography (large, dense valleys with mountains positioned in a way to trap pollution).

*To head off the "I have to SMOG my car in Nevada!!!!!" people, your state legislature adopted our regulations. Complain to them.


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

nm+ said:


> California got environmental protections long before the rest of the US, which allows it to basically rule itself within the state. This makes people who don't live here or weren't alive/here in the 80s to remember what real pollution looked like (see: Beijing) get all butt hurt despite the fact that it doesn't impact them at all.* It also recognizes our unique geography (large, dense valleys with mountains positioned in a way to trap pollution).
> 
> *To head off the "I have to SMOG my car in Nevada!!!!!" people, your state legislature adopted our regulations. Complain to them.


not hard to understand how, California is the world's 8th largest economy...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_between_U.S._states_and_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)


----------



## chernaudi (Oct 6, 2006)

As far as I'm concerned, GM and Toyota got let off easy over stuff that the US Gov't went after them for that actually injured and killed people. IMO, that set a bad precedent, as did the Ford Pinto gas tank filler neck deal about 40 years ago.

If they want to hammer VW over what seems to be a reg cheating consumer advocacy issues, then they should've hammered GM and Toyota with fines and lawsuits over injury/wrongful death liability.

And, ironically, people then, and now are buying GM and Toyota vehicles, just as the filler neck scandal didn't slow down Pinto sales. What was it that George Carlin said about 20 years ago about voting and politicians vs the voting public?


----------



## 85GTI (Dec 19, 2000)

nm+ said:


> California got environmental protections long before the rest of the US, which allows it to basically rule itself within the state. This makes people who don't live here or weren't alive/here in the 80s to remember what real pollution looked like (see: Beijing) get all butt hurt despite the fact that it doesn't impact them at all.* It also recognizes our unique geography (large, dense valleys with mountains positioned in a way to trap pollution).


Baya de los Fumos - Bay of the Smoke. Name allegedly given the LA basin by Spanish explorers. It is the perfectly wrong place to put millions of cars. And yet we have cleaned up the air there dramatically in the last 50 years by the use of pollution controls on cars and industry. Some things are worth it. I grew up in Houston and I remember how bad the air and water was back in the 60s and 70s. It is much much better now - relatively speaking. It still Houston - they can't fix that.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

85GTI said:


> Baya de los Fumos - Bay of the Smoke. Name allegedly given the LA basin by Spanish explorers. It is the perfectly wrong place to put millions of cars. And yet we have cleaned up the air there dramatically in the last 50 years by the use of pollution controls on cars and industry. Some things are worth it. I grew up in Houston and I remember how bad the air and water was back in the 60s and 70s. It is much much better now - relatively speaking. It still Houston - they can't fix that.


Yeah- most younger adults now don't realize what smog was like before vehicle emissions.
And let's be honest- At first it sucked... but vehicle emissions forced engineers to figure out how to make better engines that made more power with less fuel.
If we never had emissions we would probably be in an ice age by now... and driving 60's tech drivetrains.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

tincanman99 said:


> Realize the US govmt is strangling the life out of companies with the endless regulations and bullish**. They wonder why companies don't want to operate in the US, regulations and interference are the primary reason.


Exactly.

No wonder the US economy, still the largest in the world, has performed the best in the world since the 2008 collapse.

Er, wait.


----------



## Slushbox254 (Aug 9, 2015)

Chilcoot said:


> Exactly.
> 
> No wonder the US economy, still the largest in the world, has performed the best in the world since the 2008 collapse.
> 
> Er, wait.


Yeah, screw dem dern regulations tooking er jerbs... If I want to buy a lead toy for my child its my gerd dern right to do it!


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

radiospace said:


> I can't believe some people are laughing about this. This is terrible news for VW, for enthusiasts, for owners (especially of the effected cars). Holy crap. It just makes me feel sick inside.
> 
> They've done something incredibly stupid and the repercussions will probably be going on for 5 years (or longer) in terms of VW's business in the U.S. And if this spreads to the EU.... wow.
> 
> ...


Excellent post, thank you. Yes, the environment-hating trolls are afoot.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

CarLuvrSD said:


> Today GM was found criminally liable by a federal judge for the deaths in the ignition switch scandal. Yet the Obama justice department has chosen not to charge executives known to have culpability. There were no big headlines about that today.


I heard about the GM result yestoday on radio, and read about it on the front pages of both newspapers I read.

No, it didn't receive Trumpian-level attention, but it was well-reported.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

atomicalex said:


> In fact, VW should propose to make the code switchable by the consumer. You want to run in EPA mode? Good for you. Don't do anything. You want to run in normal mode? Click your left turn signal and hit the horn twice. Thank you and have a nice trip.


As someone in the habit of respiring, this is a terrible idea.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> Just bored...
> 
> Figured this thread would bring out all the best posts today.


Glad that VW, the EPA, NYT, and myself could entertain you today Jamie


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

mhjett said:


> Cheating on emissions tests doesn't seem worth feeling sick over.


Good point. So what if air pollution kills seven million people per year?










Source: World Health Organization

Air pollution is only caused by other people, not VW drivers.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Rav_VW said:


> And meanwhile, a single large cargo ship docking in SF bay emits more pollution than all of California's diesel cars combined in a year.


I'd be curious to know if that's true or if you just made it up.

I could imagine it possibly being true, but to me it seems more likely you made it up, perhaps to make what VW did here sound morally acceptable.

Source?


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

EPA could fine VW $18 BILLION dollars.

http://www.businessinsider.com/vw-t...uses-it-of-dodging-clean-air-standards-2015-9

The even bigger question: who knew of this at VW, and when?


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

chernaudi said:


> If they want to hammer VW over what seems to be a reg cheating consumer advocacy issues, then they should've hammered GM and Toyota with fines and lawsuits over injury/wrongful death liability.


Which is EXACTLY what is being done.

Both GM and Toyota faced fines, and faced lawsuits for injury and wrongful death. Toyota alone has paid out over $1.4 billion to resolve private tort claims.

Source.

:banghead::banghead::banghead:


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

Chilcoot said:


> Which is EXACTLY what is being done.
> 
> Both GM and Toyota faced fines, and faced lawsuits for injury and wrongful death. Toyota alone has paid out over $1.4 billion to resolve private tort claims.
> 
> ...


1.4 billion vs 18 billion?


----------



## spathotan (Jun 14, 2013)

Id think they would pull out of the US instead of paying a $18bil fine.

Knowing VW, id expect the consumer to end up having to pay for this in the long run via mark ups on non-TDI models. Because $25k for a reasonably equipped Golf isnt quite enough.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

nm+ said:


> California got environmental protections long before the rest of the US, which allows it to basically rule itself within the state. This makes people who don't live here or weren't alive/here in the 80s to remember what real pollution looked like (see: Beijing) get all butt hurt despite the fact that it doesn't impact them at all.* It also recognizes our unique geography (large, dense valleys with mountains positioned in a way to trap pollution).
> 
> *To head off the "I have to SMOG my car in Nevada!!!!!" people, your state legislature adopted our regulations. Complain to them.


Not exactly right. The CAA sets the floor for emissions, state's can set stricter regulations, which is what CA has done. Environmental laws were set based on the Commerce Clause, which reserves certain powers to congress, not states.


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

Chilcoot said:


> I'd be curious to know if that's true or if you just made it up.
> 
> I could imagine it possibly being true, but to me it seems more likely you made it up, perhaps to make what VW did here sound morally acceptable.
> 
> Source?


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1229857/How-16-ships-create-pollution-cars-world.html

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-08-30-ship-pollution_x.htm

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2009/apr/09/shipping-pollution

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...t-cargo-ship-emits-as-much-as-50-million-cars


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

shawshank redemption said:


> 1.4 billion vs 18 billion?


Apples (private tort suits thus far against Toyota) and oranges (maximum conceivable regulatory fine against VW).

Your point?


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

Chilcoot said:


> Good point. So what if air pollution kills seven million people per year?
> 
> Air pollution is only caused by other people, not VW drivers.


No one died over what VW did. Over 100 people died because of what GM did. Slight difference.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

So, still no answer to the question I posted on page 1. Is this related to the letter I got in April from VW, the subject being " Emissions Service Action 2306 - ECM Software"

"Dear Volkswagen Owner,

As part of Volkswagen's ongoing commitment to our environment, and in cooperation with the United States Environmental Protection Agency, we are informing you of our decision to conduct an emissions service on certain 2010-2014 model year Volkswagen vehicles equipped with a 2.0L TDI Clean Diesel Engine....

What is the issue, and what will we do? The vehicle's engine management software has been improved to assure your vehicle's tailpipe emissions are optimized and operating efficiently..."


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Rav_VW said:


> And meanwhile, a single large cargo ship docking in SF bay emits more pollution than all of California's diesel cars combined in a year.





Kar98 said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1229857/How-16-ships-create-pollution-cars-world.html


Hmm, nothing in that story about how much pollution a single large cargo ship emits while docking in SF bay, or how much pollution California diesel cars collectively emit in a year.



Kar98 said:


> http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-08-30-ship-pollution_x.htm


Hmm, nothing in that story about how much pollution a single large cargo ship emits while docking in SF bay, or how much pollution California diesel cars collectively emit in a year.



Kar98 said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2009/apr/09/shipping-pollution


Hmm, nothing in that story about how much pollution a single large cargo ship emits while docking in SF bay, or how much pollution California diesel cars collectively emit in a year.

However, there is a good point to be made here. The world is missing out on not regulating ship engine emissions anywhere near as tightly as it regulates vehicle emissions. We should definitely tighten the ship emissions. But that's not an argument to loosen vehicle emission rules. I'm glad I got to read those three news stories.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

spathotan said:


> Id think they would pull out of the US instead of paying a $18bil fine.


American judgments are executable throughout the western world. VWoA wouldn't be able to avoid a federal or state fine by just decamping to Wolfsburg. Delay paying it? Sure. But not avoid it.

And keep in mind that $18B is the theoretical limit of the government fines. The actual amount, if anything, will certainly be many times less.


----------



## Ambrose Wolfinger (Feb 21, 2005)

I am assuming that there are aftermarket options for ECU software, just as there are for gas powered cars. I wonder how the emissions are effected on those cars, and if there is a similar "bypass" programmed in?


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

mhjett said:


> No one died over what VW did. Over 100 people died because of what GM did. Slight difference.


Again, 7 million die each year from air pollution, according to the WHO. VW stands accused of tricking governments into allowing hundreds of thousands of diesel cars to emit far more air-polluting compounds than allowed for six whole years.

Not sure how you can say not one of the 42 million people who died from air pollution during that period could be attributed to VW's apparent fraud.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

VT1.8T said:


> So, still no answer to the question I posted on page 1. Is this related to the letter I got in April from VW, the subject being " Emissions Service Action 2306 - ECM Software"


I certainly don't know for sure, but it seems highly likely the letter you received is directly related to yesterday's bombshell.


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

Chilcoot said:


> Hmm, nothing in that story about how much pollution a single large cargo ship emits while docking in SF bay, or how much pollution California diesel cars collectively emit in a year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As of January 2014, there was a total number of approximately 13 million automobiles registered in California. According to all these articles, one of these tankers emits as much emissions as 50 million cars. 50 million is more than 13 million. This help?


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

VT1.8T said:


> So, still no answer to the question I posted on page 1. Is this related to the letter I got in April from VW, the subject being " Emissions Service Action 2306 - ECM Software"
> 
> "Dear Volkswagen Owner,
> 
> ...


Yes, it is related. However, that fix does not fully address the issue. 

It's all covered in the letter that has been reposted several times.


----------



## dodger21 (Jan 24, 2011)

Chilcoot said:


> Again, 7 million die each year from air pollution, according to the WHO. VW stands accused of tricking governments into allowing hundreds of thousands of diesel cars to emit far more air-polluting compounds than allowed for six whole years.
> 
> Not sure how you can say not one of the 42 million people who died from air pollution during that period could be attributed to VW's apparent fraud.


And how many died in China and India where there really isn't a concern for air pollution? I bet those 2 countries alone can account for 1/3-1/2 of those killed due to air pollution. Now throw in 3rd world countries like South America and Africa. Then the Shieks of the Middle East. 

500k cars in the US do not account for much, if any, in the larger scheme of things in this world. 

I'd hypothesize that volcanic activity and wild fires contribute equal to, if not more than, the air pollution than all the diesels in the world combined.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

VoA basically did the OEM equivalent of 'roiding. 

Maybe Motor Trend will make them stick an asterisk next to their Car of the Year nods.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Chilcoot said:


> Again, 7 million die each year from air pollution, according to the WHO. VW stands accused of tricking governments into allowing hundreds of thousands of diesel cars to emit far more air-polluting compounds than allowed for six whole years.
> 
> Not sure how you can say not one of the 42 million people who died from air pollution during that period could be attributed to VW's apparent fraud.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Kar98 said:


> As of January 2014, there was a total number of approximately 13 million automobiles registered in California. According to all these articles, one of these tankers emits as much emissions as 50 million cars. 50 million is more than 13 million. This help?


In an earlier post today, I acknowledged the underlying truth, that ships are horrible polluters relative to cars.

It remains undemonstrated how much pollution the worst ships put out while docked in SF bay, or how much pollution is emitted by all the diesel cars in California, which were the original subjects I questioned.

Let's agree to agree and avoid further bickering.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

dodger21 said:


> I'd hypothesize that volcanic activity and wild fires contribute equal to, if not more than, the air pollution than all the diesels in the world combined.


If you don't know much about the topic, you shouldn't be hypothesizing. That's how misinformation gets spread.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> If you don't know much about the topic, you shouldn't be hypothesizing. That's how misinformation gets spread.


I think Rush Limbaugh started that volcano line when he was a climate change expert.
A little knowledge... and a willingness to spread intentional half truths.


----------



## LindsayLowhan (May 29, 2010)

EPA:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Chilcoot said:


> Hmm, nothing in that story about how much pollution a single large cargo ship emits while docking in SF bay, or how much pollution California diesel cars collectively emit in a year.
> 
> Hmm, nothing in that story about how much pollution a single large cargo ship emits while docking in SF bay, or how much pollution California diesel cars collectively emit in a year.
> 
> ...


You're a lot of fun at parties, aren't you?


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Air and water do mix said:


> You're a lot of fun at parties, aren't you?


And thus our thread transitions from the discussion phase to the personal attacks phase.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Chilcoot said:


> And thus our thread transitions from the discussion phase to the personal attacks phase.


Oh please.  Go back and read your posts with a more objective eye. It looks like a troll account for another poster.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Air and water do mix said:


> Oh please.  Go back and read your posts with a more objective eye. It looks like a troll account for another poster.


It is something that needs to be addressed.. but this is not the thread or topic to bring it up.
Company intentionally programmed vehicles to only meet emissions regulation when actually being tested- and admits they did it.
Hold them accountable, but don't get all "makes you sound like Nathan Thurm" defensive "Well other things pollute worse!"
Yeah..but they aren't intentionally breaking the law.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Oh, they absolutely need to be held accountable, but this is nowhere close to being as bad as the ignition switch fiasco. $18B isn't going to happen, either.

How will it shake out? I have no idea. We'll have to wait and see.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

Air and water do mix said:


> Oh, they absolutely need to be held accountable, but this is nowhere close to being as bad as the ignition switch fiasco. $18B isn't going to happen, either.


Nor should it, realistically. Besides, if the EPA tried to hold VoA accountable to the tune of $18 billion, they'd quite simply pick up their ball and go home.


----------



## Chmeeee (Jun 24, 2002)

dodger21 said:


> I'd hypothesize that volcanic activity and wild fires contribute equal to, if not more than, the air pollution than all the diesels in the world combined.


A: That's a total WAG with no basis in fact as far as I can tell.

B: Even if true, the volcanic activity and natural wild fires are part of the natural cycle and represent what led Earth to the natural balance as we know it. That natural balance did not include burning 3 billion gallons of oil per day.


----------



## KARMANN_20V (May 25, 2005)

If the so called emissions defeat mode was enabled with the rear wheels stationary, than any dyno test of the 09 and up TDIs would have been done with the emission mode enabled, correct? Are there any dyno tests out there proving the advertised HP in the emission mode? What is the real HP/TQ number in the emissions defeat mode, I wonder?


----------



## dos (Jul 5, 2009)

So you think we will get the Scirocco?


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

ByronLLN said:


> Nor should it, realistically. Besides, if the EPA tried to hold VoA accountable to the tune of $18 billion, they'd quite simply pick up their ball and go home.


Yep. I can't imagine an _attempt_ at collecting $18B. I'll be stunned if its $1B. You never know, though. The Feds may do just that to try to make an example out of them, 



dos said:


> So you think we will get the Scirocco?


:laugh: :beer:


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

dos said:


> So you think we will get the Scirocco?


It is kind of ridiculous in that light.

All the models VW did not sell in the US because "too risky".
Yet here they played a big gamble for a completely unknown reason.

VW fans: "Can you please sell us these actually cool looking cars you sell in other countries instead of just selling us the basic cars with big budget ad campaigns aimed to make them seem edgy and youthful?"

VWoA: "Nein. Too risky."

VW Dealers: "VWoA, we need all the affordable TDI models you can make. These are very popular cars here."

VWoA: "Ok."

VWoA: "Engineers. Tune these to cheat the Amerika EPA emissions test. We need to make them run better even though they already sell well. It's risky.. but YOLO."

EPA: "VWoA trolled everybody like a bitch."

VW fans: ":what:"


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

I highly doubt the go for this came from VWoA. Or even the request. This came straight outta Wolfsburgh.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

KARMANN_20V said:


> If the so called emissions defeat mode was enabled with the rear wheels stationary, than any dyno test of the 09 and up TDIs would have been done with the emission mode enabled, correct? Are there any dyno tests out there proving the advertised HP in the emission mode? What is the real HP/TQ number in the emissions defeat mode, I wonder?


I like where you are going.

If the "dyno sense" is how it works, then possibly yes. If it works some other way, such as some weird OBDII call from the testing machine or incorporating an rpm cycle sense, then no. 

How much is known about dyno pulls on these cars stock?


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

atomicalex said:


> I highly doubt the go for this came from VWoA. Or even the request. This came straight outta Wolfsburgh.


Scene from the new movie:* Straight Outta Wolfsburg*


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

VarianceVQ said:


> Yeah, I imagine a guy that owns a shirt that says "question authority" would in this instance.


You got a good memory. That shirt was from 2007. :beer:


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

Hawk said:


> You got a good memory. That shirt was from 2007. :beer:


Straight outta Brampton?


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)




----------



## radiospace (Jul 31, 2000)

BRealistic said:


> But this area is so vague.. the car "feels slower".
> If that argument worked to get a buyback, I think 50% of new car buyers would claim that after 6 months.
> If the real world engine output and mpg are tested to within allowed tolerances to the manufacturer specifications and advertised numbers, I just don't see a legal case period.
> Any lawyers here to chime in on this?... because having something removed that you were not supposed to get in the first place is not an actual loss according to the law imho.


It's funny how you equate VW diesel owners' apparently completely legitimate concerns that their cars are going to have a noticeable loss of power once recalled and repaired to EPA standards, with somebody just randomly claiming that their car "feels slower". 

If the illegal engine operation wasn't to entice customers to purchase the cars after a test drive (performed under duplicitous circumstances), then WHY did VW do it? Because they just thought it would be cool to pollute the air?


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

radiospace said:


> It's funny how you equate VW diesel owners' apparently completely legitimate concerns that their cars are going to have a noticeable loss of power once recalled and repaired to EPA standards, with somebody just randomly claiming that their car "feels slower".
> 
> If the illegal engine operation wasn't to entice customers to purchase the cars after a test drive (performed under duplicitous circumstances), then WHY did VW do it? Because they just thought it would be cool to pollute the air?


We don't even know the difference between previous and future corrected spec yet.
What is noticeable?
I'k not saying this wouldn't piss me off if I bought one... but I am looking at the legal angle.
All VW has to say is the new tune will wear emission equipment that they already warranty to 100k miles, but doesn't significantly affect power of drive-ability... and then the owner must somehow provide a preponderance of the evidence that support otherwise.


----------



## nm+ (Jan 6, 2006)

BRealistic said:


> We don't even know the difference between previous and future corrected spec yet.
> What is noticeable?
> I'k not saying this wouldn't piss me off if I bought one... but I am looking at the legal angle.
> All VW has to say is the new tune will wear emission equipment that they already warranty to 100k miles, but doesn't significantly affect power of drive-ability... and then the owner must somehow provide a preponderance of the evidence that support otherwise.


I mean, in theory, if a car dynoed at say 200hp before the change and 190 hp after, there could be some grounds for a lawsuit. The damages would be hard to quantify; however, which is why, for example, is why I don't think we saw a lawsuit when mazda revised RX-8 numbers down. This isn't my area of expertise, though. Vad might know, but not sure if this is one of those cases he can comment on.

If, on the other hand, they have to revise EPA numbers down, that is easy as that is just based on gas prices and miles driven. Maybe a loss of value for resale.


----------



## radiospace (Jul 31, 2000)

BRealistic said:


> We don't even know the difference between previous and future corrected spec yet.
> What is noticeable?
> I'k not saying this wouldn't piss me off if I bought one... but I am looking at the legal angle.
> All VW has to say is the new tune will wear emission equipment that they already warranty to 100k miles, but doesn't significantly affect power of drive-ability... and then the owner must somehow provide a preponderance of the evidence that support otherwise.


Well, I don't think so, but we'll just have to disagree. However, if VW could actually prove (scientifically, not rhetorically) that the new tune does not affect horsepower or gas mileage in a significant way, then they might be in a fairly strong position in regards to lawsuits on that issue. In other words, I think the weight of proof will fall to Volkswagen on account of their shenanigans. (Someone earlier in the thread stated that VW has admitted to this wrongdoing, but I haven't seen any such thing in the press, so that is still an open issue as far as I'm concerned).

However, I have already seen one article today (sorry I didn't save a link) that stated that some owners were planning a class action lawsuit on the grounds of loss-of-value of their cars. That is, they are blaming VW for the reduced resale value of their cars on account of this scandal. Another lawyer is filing a lawsuit on behalf of a driver who feels violated because he specifically chose the VW diesel on account of its "clean diesel" claims and wanted to be a good Marin County environmentalist. 

I think the bottom line is, there are going to be lawsuits coming out of the woodwork, and who's to say that there won't be a class action suit by people with asthma who don't even own a VW?

In other words, my point is: it was sheer madness for VW to engage in this behavior, just from a liability perspective.


----------



## gti5dr06 (Sep 28, 2006)

radiospace said:


> Well, I don't think so, but we'll just have to disagree. However, if VW could actually prove (scientifically, not rhetorically) that the new tune does not affect horsepower or gas mileage in a significant way, then they might be in a fairly strong position in regards to lawsuits on that issue. In other words, I think the weight of proof will fall to Volkswagen on account of their shenanigans. (Someone earlier in the thread stated that VW has admitted to this wrongdoing, but I haven't seen any such thing in the press, so that is still an open issue as far as I'm concerned).
> 
> However, I have already seen one article today (sorry I didn't save a link) that stated that some owners were planning a class action lawsuit on the grounds of loss-of-value of their cars. That is, they are blaming VW for the reduced resale value of their cars on account of this scandal. Another lawyer is filing a lawsuit on behalf of a driver who feels violated because he specifically chose the VW diesel on account of its "clean diesel" claims and wanted to be a good Marin County environmentalist.
> 
> ...


From the EPA website:

"EPA and CARB uncovered the defeat device software after independent analysis by researchers at West Virginia University, working with the International Council on Clean Transportation, a non-governmental organization, raised questions about emissions levels, and the agencies began further investigations into the issue. In September, after EPA and CARB demanded an explanation for the identified emission problems, Volkswagen *admitted* that the cars contained defeat devices."


----------



## Bronco MkV (Feb 25, 2013)

Didn't want to interfere much with this thread, but I thought it might be worthwhile to post an account of my 5 months of experience driving with the new "EPA-compliant" ECM.

Here is a link if you are interested.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...e-with-the-modified-EPA-compliant-TDI-ECM-map


----------



## radiospace (Jul 31, 2000)

gti5dr06 said:


> From the EPA website:
> 
> "EPA and CARB uncovered the defeat device software after independent analysis by researchers at West Virginia University, working with the International Council on Clean Transportation, a non-governmental organization, raised questions about emissions levels, and the agencies began further investigations into the issue. In September, after EPA and CARB demanded an explanation for the identified emission problems, Volkswagen *admitted* that the cars contained defeat devices."


Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Porkchopexpress (Jul 2, 2015)

nm+ said:


> I mean, in theory, if a car dynoed at say 200hp before the change and 190 hp after, there could be some grounds for a lawsuit. The damages would be hard to quantify; however, which is why, for example, is why I don't think we saw a lawsuit when mazda revised RX-8 numbers down. This isn't my area of expertise, though. Vad might know, but not sure if this is one of those cases he can comment on.
> 
> If, on the other hand, they have to revise EPA numbers down, that is easy as that is just based on gas prices and miles driven. Maybe a loss of value for resale.


If the software was programmed to cheat emissions tests, I assume it would also cheat the dyno test so the HP test results should be the same before and after the recall.


----------



## driveareliablecar (Jan 28, 2003)

"High diesel NOx emissions ‘likely for decades’ due to failing tests" from Submitted on August 1, 2014 - 16:32 article in transportenvironment dot org. 

"High levels of nitrogen oxides (NOx) in cities, caused by *diesel cars*, are likely to persist for decades, the UK Government was recently forced to admit. In evidence to the European Court of Justice, in a case brought by Client Earth, the government admitted it would be at least 2030 before London, Leeds and Birmingham meet nitrogen dioxide standards that should have been achieved in 2010."

It took a year for the Americans authorities to catch on.


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

N02 and CO2 gases in high concentration are bad for any living creatures.
In other news, the sky is blue.

In any case, sooner we get rid of private cars from big cities, the better off we are.


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

Porkchopexpress said:


> If the software was programmed to cheat emissions tests, I assume it would also cheat the dyno test so the HP test results should be the same before and after the recall.


If the "lower emissions mode" is activated by the rear wheels being non-moving, it could also be activated on state emissions checks, which may be why there have not been complaints about the cars failing state emissions checks.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

tjl said:


> If the "lower emissions mode" is activated by the rear wheels being non-moving, it could also be activated on state emissions checks, which may be why there have not been complaints about the cars failing state emissions checks.


The average state/province local emissions test for diesel engines doesn't check for NOx AT ALL. Most of them are either a simple OBDII readiness / fault codes check, or a visual or instrumented opacity (smoke) check. NOx isn't visible and won't affect an opacity check, and if the vehicle's on-board diagnostics are set up to indicate that all is well even though it isn't, that won't show anything up, either.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

J-Tim said:


> In any case, sooner we get rid of private cars from big cities, the better off we are.


This will have broad support among sanctimonious urbanites..... just as long as they're exempt.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Surf Green said:


> This will have broad support among sanctimonious urbanites..... just as long as they're exempt.


It's like an urban version of NIMBY, eh? :laugh:


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Goddamn Volkswagen.


I'm not sure what to take of all this, as the 'reports' all seem to be full of political BS, more than actual technical details.

I actually had issues with my ECM, and wiring harnesses when I owned my MkVI that resulted in multiple occurrences of being stranded on the side of the road. Who knows if any of this apparent 'cheating' of the software had anything to do with my issues. Whatever happens, I'll keep keeping an eye on this.


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

Avoiding to commenters on Facebook


----------



## MagnetoReluctance (Aug 14, 2003)

We're "deeply sorry": http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/20/us-usa-volkswagen-ceo-idUSKCN0RK0IK20150920

Sent from my D6616 using Tapatalk


----------



## gonzo08452 (Apr 17, 2006)

Yup. Heads are gonna roll.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

rbloedow said:


> We're "deeply sorry": http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/20/us-usa-volkswagen-ceo-idUSKCN0RK0IK20150920
> 
> Sent from my D6616 using Tapatalk


----------



## gonzo08452 (Apr 17, 2006)

Winky has gotten himself into a little bit of hot water.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

gonzo08452 said:


> Yup. Heads are gonna roll.


Will they?

Every culture.. every large business has their own ways of dealing with failures and PR emergencies.

VW admitted that the cars have ECU programming that only runs all the emission equipment during the EPA emission test.
That's all they have admitted.
Pure speculation...
But I bet they come out with some explanation that this ecu programming was not supposed to be released on production cars sold to the public.
It was a program used for an internal test, and it mistakenly got put for several US models with the four cylinder TDI for years and years.
Seriously... just wait.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

article said:


> "We do not and will not tolerate violations of any kind of our internal rules or of the law," Winterkorn said


This sort of thinking got them Gdańsk, excuse me, Danzig back! :thumbup:


----------



## dos (Jul 5, 2009)

BRealistic said:


> Will they?
> 
> Every culture.. every large business has their own ways of dealing with failures and PR emergencies.
> 
> ...


Get outta my head man. I was thinking this word for word this morning.

How many fingers am I holding behind my back.


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

Sporin said:


> Avoiding to commenters on Facebook
> 
> 
> https://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/20/bea43095c92502b26262b24445d70f0a.jpg


Wow, you have some retarded friends.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

dos said:


> Get outta my head man. I was thinking this word for word this morning.
> 
> How many fingers am I holding behind my back.


Plausible deniability.
Corporations rely on that to skirt punishment.
If you can't find the person responsible.. then is anybody responsible?

Oh, and thirteen.
And I don't even want to know where you get those severed human fingers.


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

Should these guys be happy or afraid?


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Car Problems said:


> Should these guys be happy or afraid?


Owner modified emissions are still illegal.
Enforcement is another thing.


Those close to Winkerton say he has been in locked in his favorite place to concentrate on serious issues all day.


----------



## dos (Jul 5, 2009)

Car Problems said:


> Should these guys be happy or afraid?


My spidey senses tell me that didn't come that way stock. They should be no more afraid then cars running catless exhausts.


----------



## MagnetoReluctance (Aug 14, 2003)

And there you have it - sales of diesels have been haulted: http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-tell...-of-new-tdi-cars-1731923302?rev=1442763114435

"The EPA is taking action on 2016 diesel models. Christopher Grundler, director of the EPA Office of Transportation of Air Quality, said that the government will not grant VW a “certificate of conformity” to sell the 2016 models with 2.0-liter diesel engines, meaning they cannot be sold."


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

Chilcoot said:


> Again, 7 million die each year from air pollution, according to the WHO. VW stands accused of tricking governments into allowing hundreds of thousands of diesel cars to emit far more air-polluting compounds than allowed for six whole years.
> 
> Not sure how you can say not one of the 42 million people who died from air pollution during that period could be attributed to VW's apparent fraud.


Given there's a quarter billion passenger vehicles in the United States and roughly 500,000 violative VW diesels, that's 2 tenths of 1 percent of all the vehicles in this country. Out of however many air pollution deaths occurred in the US since 2009, you go find me the people who actually died because of the emissions of this 0.2% of these 253,000,000 vehicles, and we'll compare that to the 169 people who've died from the GM ignition switch defect.



GoFaster said:


> The average state/province local emissions test for diesel engines doesn't check for NOx AT ALL. Most of them are either a simple OBDII readiness / fault codes check, or a visual or instrumented opacity (smoke) check. NOx isn't visible and won't affect an opacity check, and if the vehicle's on-board diagnostics are set up to indicate that all is well even though it isn't, that won't show anything up, either.


That's the case here in Virginia - for OBDII cars, they simply plug in and check for fault codes. There's no actual NOx sniffing unless you're pre-OBDII.



rbloedow said:


> And there you have it - sales of diesels have been haulted: http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-tell...-of-new-tdi-cars-1731923302?rev=1442763114435
> 
> "The EPA is taking action on 2016 diesel models. Christopher Grundler, director of the EPA Office of Transportation of Air Quality, said that the government will not grant VW a “certificate of conformity” to sell the 2016 models with 2.0-liter diesel engines, meaning they cannot be sold."


This is sort of a big deal. I'm kind of tempted to go cruise past the VWoA parking lot to see how many people are working right now on Sunday afternoon.


----------



## driveareliablecar (Jan 28, 2003)

Global issue with diesel emissions on passenger cars. It is a huge problem.


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

ByronLLN said:


> Nor should it, realistically. Besides, if the EPA tried to hold VoA accountable to the tune of $18 billion, they'd quite simply pick up their ball and go home.


They may very well exit business in the US, or at least pull their diesel business, but it's too late to duck penalties/prosecution. The most extreme measure might be VWoA filing bankruptcy to get out of some of the liabilities they may incur, but that may not leave VAG untouchable anyway (don't know for sure how their corp entity structure might help them or not)


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

atomicalex said:


> I highly doubt the go for this came from VWoA. Or even the request. This came straight outta Wolfsburgh.


given the apparent command and control nature of VAG, this


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

rbloedow said:


> And there you have it - sales of diesels have been haulted: http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-tell...-of-new-tdi-cars-1731923302?rev=1442763114435
> 
> "The EPA is taking action on 2016 diesel models. Christopher Grundler, director of the EPA Office of Transportation of Air Quality, said that the government will not grant VW a “certificate of conformity” to sell the 2016 models with 2.0-liter diesel engines, meaning they cannot be sold."


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

mhjett said:


> Given there's a quarter billion passenger vehicles in the United States and roughly 500,000 violative VW diesels, *that's 2 tenths of 1 percent of all the vehicles in this country. *Out of however many air pollution deaths occurred in the US since 2009, you go find me the people who actually died because of the emissions of this 0.2% of these 253,000,000 vehicles, and we'll compare that to the 169 people who've died from the GM ignition switch defect.
> .



0.2 % x 40x allowed emissions = 8% of all emissions.

I don't understand these attempts to downplay emission concerns- especially since VW has been pushing their TDIs with "clean diesel" advertising.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

mhjett said:


> This is sort of a big deal. I'm kind of tempted to go cruise past the VWoA parking lot to see how many people are working right now on Sunday afternoon.


Make sure to go into the underground parking garage at Woodland Park Crossing. I went there last week, and it looked like it was the VWoA parking annex.


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

BRealistic said:


> 0.2 % x 40x allowed emissions = 8% of all emissions.
> 
> I don't understand these attempts to downplay emission concerns- especially since VW has been pushing their TDIs with "clean diesel" advertising.


That's not even remotely close to how those maths would work. :laugh: 

I'm not trying to downplay emissions concerns or excuse or justify anything. While I admire the ingenuity of trying to outsmarting the government, I also think this was an incredibly stupid risk to take and am looking forward to watching how this whole spectacle plays out. I was simply responding to the guy who thinks people died because of this.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

mhjett said:


> I'm not trying to downplay emissions concerns or excuse anything. * I was only responding to the guy who thinks people died because of this.*


Contributed to the issue.
Companies that pollute don't usually kill people directly, they just add to the toxin levels in the environment that do contribute to sickness and death.


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

BRealistic said:


> Will they?
> 
> Every culture.. every large business has their own ways of dealing with failures and PR emergencies.
> 
> ...


I meant it's POSSIBLE. But can you seriously see a GERMAN ENGINEER* missing this kind of thing?!?

*possibly the most detail-oriented, anal-retentive, perfectionists in the history of the human race


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

BRealistic said:


> Contributed to the issue.
> Companies that pollute don't usually kill people directly, they just add to the toxin levels in the environment that do contribute to sickness and death.


Being alive contributes to a risk of death too.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Waterfan said:


> I meant it's POSSIBLE. But can you seriously see a GERMAN ENGINEER* missing this kind of thing?!?
> 
> *possibly the most detail-oriented, anal-retentive, perfectionists in the history of the human race


They design very complicated hard to repair things, then get the parts made and cars assembled where the labor is cheapest...
I don't put anything past German Engineering.


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

Kar98 said:


> Wow, you have some retarded friends.


Not me. That was on a Bangshift article.


----------



## vwlifer27 (Jun 15, 2005)

What surprised me the most about this situation is that this is a huge negative action for VW and......Turbio hasn't shown up in this thread yet. :laugh:opcorn:


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

Car Problems said:


> Should these guys be happy or afraid?


This is America, these are the same guys pointing and laughing at all of this fallout from VW, while posting about their "deletes" "and tunes" on their 2008+ DPF/ SCR & DEF equipped diesel trucks. I'm on the EcoDiesel forums, and everyone and their brother is over there "deleting" their brand new 2015 trucks. Could you imagine if the EPA showed up at their home, and had a few questions?


----------



## MAPLE SYRUP (Feb 25, 2003)

I wonder if any of this will follow into Canada...


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

vwlifer27 said:


> What surprised me the most about this situation is that this is a huge negative action for VW and......Turbio hasn't shown up in this thread yet. :laugh:opcorn:


I feel like it affects the entire clean-diesel movement, from VW, to Mercedes-Benz, BMW, FCA with the EcoDiesel program (Even the new Titan XD & midsized GM twins), even the heavy duty segment. 

Expect the same backlash the Prius had for a few years (whether you believe Toyota was at fault or not) it was a major black eye for the Toyota brand for years to come. Toyota had to offer for the first time in decades, major incentives to buy their cars again. I'm 37 years old, and remember the negative PR Audi had in the 1980's over the run away cars, due to the shift-lock problem, which allowed idling cars to be shifted into drive or reverse, without pressing the brake pedal first. Audi nearly exited the US market after that fiasco. Wasn't really their fault, but they got randomly selected to become the poster child for that issue.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

MAPLE SYRUP said:


> I wonder if any of this will follow into Canada...


Of course it will. We have the same regulations. But I doubt there will be any fines here.

Also, I just noticed you cannot configure a TDI on VW.ca anymore.


----------



## Dubveiser (Aug 4, 2005)

MAPLE SYRUP said:


> I wonder if any of this will follow into Canada...


Yes it will.

Diesel models are no longer listed on VW.ca.


----------



## vwpiloto (Nov 27, 2006)

MAPLE SYRUP said:


> I wonder if any of this will follow into Canada...


I'm thinking they did the same thing everywhere. I mean, why not? All of the major ones are hard to pass, relatively speaking, so might as well. I think we'll see once they revise the software, what the true effect is. I doubt it's minor, as that wouldn't have caused them to cheat so blatantly.


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

BRealistic said:


> They design *very complicated hard to repair things*, then get the parts made and *cars assembled where the labor is cheapest*...
> I don't put anything past German Engineering.


Yup, because no other manufacturer ever does this  

I'll admit that I'm disappointed that this is happening, but I'm not surprised. I'm certain an internal investigation in the matter will reveal that only a small part of the TDI development team was responsible for doing this, or all of them, who knows. In the end, a huge call out like this will ensure that things like this do not happen again, at least for a while. It is admirable that they're admitting it and at least saying "Hey, you caught us!" But that's where the redemption ends until we see how they resolve the issue at hand now.


----------



## MAPLE SYRUP (Feb 25, 2003)

I will have to watch autotrader to see if used diesels at dealers plummet, or sky rocket :laugh:


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

Hajduk said:


> Of course it will. We have the same regulations. But I doubt there will be any fines here.
> 
> Also, I just noticed you cannot configure a TDI on VW.ca anymore.


Weird, you still can in the US

http://www.vw.com/models/


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Dubveiser said:


> Yes it will.
> 
> Diesel models are no longer listed on VW.ca.


Yeah, I just went through it fairly quickly, but it looks like it's completely scrubbed!

 indeed!



Cutandthrust said:


> Weird, you still can in the US
> 
> http://www.vw.com/models/



I had already checked that, but yeah. I wonder how long it will stay up. I also wonder how good of a deal I can get on that 2014 Jetta TDI sitting over there at my dealer. :laugh:


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

It's times like these that it pays for a foreign company to have a manufacturing plant in the US. I'm sure the prospect of US job cuts will have an impact on the severity of the EPA's fine.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Hajduk said:


> It's times like these that it pays for a foreign company to have a manufacturing plant in the US. I'm sure the prospect of US job cuts will have an impact on the severity of the EPA's fine.


Very true. :beer:

Unless it turns into some political battle or becomes "the" story on the news, of course. You never know about those kinds of things. It'll be interesting to watch it all unfold, that's for certain.


----------



## daunicorn (Apr 20, 2005)

I wonder if this is what "Update" VW did to my wifes 2014 TDi the other day. She has complained about the car ever sense. She says it engine brakes very hard now when ever you let off the gas for no reason, and cruise control is unuseable anymore.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Air and water do mix said:


> Very true. :beer:
> 
> Unless it turns into some political battle or becomes "the" story on the news, of course. You never know about those kinds of things. It'll be interesting to watch it all unfold, that's for certain.


Chattanooga Tennessee.. 
Tennessee is a very Republic State.. at least most everything east of Memphis is.
Republicans hate the EPA... so they will try to help VW somehow.
Unless the UAW gets involved.. then it will be the Apocalypse.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

BRealistic said:


> Chattanooga Tennessee..
> Tennessee is a very Republic State.. at least most everything east of Memphis is.
> Republicans hate the EPA... so they will try to help VW somehow.
> Unless the UAW gets involved.. then it will be the Apocalypse.


That's exactly my point. Republicans are big in Tennessee, but the EPA is controlled by the executive branch and labor unions are obviously Democratic in nature.

Who knows what'll happen? Not me, that's for certain.


----------



## oldster1 (Oct 24, 2011)

Cutandthrust said:


> This is America, these are the same guys pointing and laughing at all of this fallout from VW, while posting about their "deletes" "and tunes" on their 2008+ DPF/ SCR & DEF equipped diesel trucks. I'm on the EcoDiesel forums, and everyone and their brother is over there "deleting" their brand new 2015 trucks. Could you imagine if the EPA showed up at their home, and had a few questions?


 Yes, there are idiots everywhere, hopefully this will change some day.....maybe after they have had Cancer a few times they will think about it...ah, maybe not.


----------



## Galrot (Mar 23, 2009)

vbora01 said:


> Yup, because no other manufacturer ever does this
> 
> I'll admit that I'm disappointed that this is happening, but I'm not surprised. I'm certain an internal investigation in the matter will reveal that only a small part of the TDI development team was responsible for doing this, or all of them, who knows. In the end, a huge call out like this will ensure that things like this do not happen again, at least for a while. It is admirable that they're admitting it and at least saying "Hey, you caught us!" But that's where the redemption ends until we see how they resolve the issue at hand now.


They did not admit it until a year after their shenanigans had been noticed though. 










http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

Air and water do mix said:


> Yeah, I just went through it fairly quickly, but it looks like it's completely scrubbed!
> 
> indeed!
> 
> ...


My dealer which I was just at on Saturday while picking up my two-week old GSW TDI for warranty work, still had no less than 15-20 (2015) TDI's in stock. He even stated they were aware of the noticed through media outlets, but nothing official from VW stating a stop-sale yet. I think there will be different circumstances come Monday morning. Just for fun, I even asked the sales manager if he knew why he hadn't received any 2016 TDI's yet, and he says "I've got 2016's on the lot" I asked him, yeah but where are your 2016 TDI's? And I was shocked to find out, even the general manager of this VW store, had no idea his 2016 TDI's were being held in hostage by the EPA. I'm actually not that surprised he wasn't aware of this though


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Cutandthrust said:


> My dealer which I was just at on Saturday...


Hmmmm. The question remains as to whether that will make the used ones go up or down in price, though.

Since they will almost certainly take a big mileage hit and this is going to be a major cluster-f in the media it's probably safe to say it'll go _down_ amongst the general population.


----------



## oldster1 (Oct 24, 2011)

Here in Oregon all the dealers have 2016 TDI's out on the lots and no mention of any problems. In talking with the dealership closest to me, they would not acknowledge any problems concerning the brouhaha except by saying I should talk to their service dept.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

oldster1 said:


> Here in Oregon all the dealers have 2016 TDI's out on the lots and no mention of any problems. In talking with the dealership closest to me, they would not acknowledge any problems concerning the brouhaha except by saying I should talk to their service dept.


Well that's just weird, then. 

I'm sure more details are forthcoming.


----------



## VarianceVQ (Jun 26, 2005)

The amount of denial by some TDI Club members is just hilarious:

"VW didn't cheat us!"

"It's the government's fault for making VW cheat!"

"It's a conspiracy against diesels to force us into mileage-tracking EVs!"

"VW was doing us a favor by giving us a tune that would make our cars less likely to break!"

Good god, some people are simply devout.


----------



## Veedubgti (Mar 5, 2001)

All the TDI's at my local dealer are off the lot and parked in a field waaaay in the back, where no customer goes, or is even aware of.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

VarianceVQ said:


> The amount of denial by some TDI Club members is just hilarious:
> .


Well....
They are TDIclub members.
Normal TDI owners probably don't even know what that is.
Emissions and diesel fanatics have always been at odds.
Just like the bro-dozer coal rollers... the TDI fans tend to remove/circumvent the emissions when modding for more power.
I remember hearing about that with the 1.9 TDIs quite a few times.


----------



## oldster1 (Oct 24, 2011)

*VW respondes*

http://media.vw.com/release/1066/


I didn't do it, nobody knows how it happened and it will never happen again?


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

oldster1 said:


> http://media.vw.com/release/1066/
> 
> 
> I didn't do it, nobody knows how it happened and it will never happen again?


Here's the text from Winterkorn:



Martin Winterkorn said:


> STATEMENT OF PROF. DR. MARTIN WINTERKORN, CEO OF VOLKSWAGEN AG
> Sep 20, 2015
> 
> Wolfsburg, September 20, 2015 – The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and the California Air Resources Board (EPA and CARB) revealed their findings that while testing diesel cars of the Volkswagen Group they have detected manipulations that
> ...


Wow. On a Sunday, no less.

Edit:


----------



## Sledge (May 15, 2005)

VarianceVQ said:


> "It's a conspiracy against diesels to force us into mileage-tracking EVs!"


:what:

Does the 'T' in TDIClub stand for Truther? :laugh:

Seriously those are some guanopsychotic comments.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

As a TDI owner, I must say I am really very very disappointed. VW definitely cheated us.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> I'm not sure what to take of all this, as the 'reports' all seem to be full of political BS, more than actual technical details.


Maybe your definition of "reports" is odd, but the news stories I've read in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Forbes, and USAToday have all been straight-ahead reporting on the EPA's findings, and VW's admission that the substance of the cheating allegations are true.


----------



## mx5er (Apr 28, 2001)

WinterisComing said:


> And he doesn't seem happy


I'm &%^&in' dying here. "I want them all immediately transferred to China. They don't care about pollution there." :laugh:


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

oldster1 said:


> Here in Oregon all the dealers have 2016 TDI's out on the lots and no mention of any problems. In talking with the dealership closest to me, they would not acknowledge any problems concerning the brouhaha except by saying I should talk to their service dept.


I promise not a single 2016 TDI Golf/ Passat/ Beetle exists on a dealer lot, outside of the port. Yes 2016 TSI's are sitting on lots, but not a single TDI variant. If you are seeing any of these TDI's being shoved off to a vacant lot, they are likely left over 2015 products. It's been stated several times, that the EPA is holding all 2016 TDI's in port until further notice.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

BRealistic said:


> I don't understand these attempts to downplay emission concerns- especially since VW has been pushing their TDIs with "clean diesel" advertising.


Agreed. I also don't understand why these people think their efforts are persuasive.

There is no one emissions source that is responsible for global air pollution. It's the cumulative effect of zillions of sources, some manmade. Everyone knows this.

Saying that one type of source, say the world's VW diesel engines, isn't really that big a deal relative to all the world's sources really doesn't advance any argument worth making.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Chilcoot said:


> Maybe your definition of "reports" is odd, but the news stories I've read in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Forbes, and USAToday have all been straight-ahead reporting on the EPA's findings, and VW's admission that the substance of the cheating allegations are true.


I'm talking about the technical detail that went into the circumvention. Like what kind of code was written into the ECUs to get around it, and what kind of potential side affects were/are possible because of it.


I don't care at all about the environmental affects - that is absolutely political. Big rig trucks emit much worse, and there are a lo more of them on the road. However, if I got screwed by VW because of some ****ty coding, then I'm fairly pissed.


----------



## vwpiloto (Nov 27, 2006)

mx5er said:


> I'm &%^&in' dying here. "I want them all immediately transferred to China. They don't care about pollution there." :laugh:


:laugh: Perfectly done. Loved the "Audi and Porsche are keeping VW afloat" comment.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

Sounds like a job for... CAPTAIN COMPENSATION!!!


----------



## Ronan1 (Mar 5, 2008)

So this appeared in my Facebook feed. It's already begun!

http://www.hbsslaw.com/cases-and-investigations/cases/Volkswagen-Emissions


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Hopefully VW is fined.

Executives who approved removing the emissions equipment should be criminally charged.

VW should lose their Tier 4 compliance certificate for the TDI engine and be forced to resubmit new examples for compliance.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Also, this is probably one of the most shameful things I have ever seen an automaker do. It's a tie between this and GM covering up the ignition debacle.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> I don't care at all about the environmental affects - that is absolutely political.


It's actually a matter of science, but okay.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> It's actually a matter of science, but okay.


You know the context in which I'm talking about.


----------



## mx5er (Apr 28, 2001)

Ronan1 said:


> So this appeared in my Facebook feed. It's already begun!
> 
> http://www.hbsslaw.com/cases-and-investigations/cases/Volkswagen-Emissions


So the leeches are slithering out from under the rocks. While they rake in millions, the owners will get a coupon for a free oil change :facepalm:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

GoHomePossum said:


> Also, this is probably one of the most shameful things I have ever seen an automaker do. It's a tie between this and GM covering up the ignition debacle.


A decade. A decade and this will be forgotten. Worked for Ford :laugh:


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

Cruze Diesels just went up in price!


----------



## gonzo08452 (Apr 17, 2006)

mx5er said:


> So the leeches are slithering out from under the rocks. While they rake in millions, the owners will get a coupon for a free oil change :facepalm:


It would be at least a gift card w/ limited use but accepted at Brookstone, local outlets, and Regal Cinemas.


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

Obama Administration looking at ~18 billion surplus.....


----------



## KARMANN_20V (May 25, 2005)

someguy123 said:


> Obama Administration looking at ~18 billion surplus.....


When?


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

MAPLE SYRUP said:


> I will have to watch autotrader to see if used diesels at dealers plummet, or sky rocket :laugh:


VW dealers cannot sell used TDI's that are affected as well. 

How does that affect used TDI's that are being sold by other dealers?

I wonder if VW dealers can move their used TDI's to other dealers within their ownership group, though I guess they can't sell them as CPO.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

> John Schilling, a Volkswagen spokesman, said that the company *would stop selling 2015* and 2016 Volkswagen and Audi models equipped with 4-cylinder turbo diesel engines, which the company has marketed as “clean diesel.” *The company will also stop selling used cars that have the engines, Mr. Schilling said.*


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/b...es-for-breach-of-trust-after-recall.html?_r=0


----------



## gonzo08452 (Apr 17, 2006)

Yes it's a diesel


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

Silly_me said:


> A decade. A decade and this will be forgotten. Worked for Ford :laugh:


 It was shorter for Audi in the 1980's (Remember the run away Audis?) I think people had forgotten that whole ordeal in about 5-7 years.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

Cutandthrust said:


> It was shorter for Audi in the 1980's (Remember the run away Audis?) I think people had forgotten that whole ordeal in about 5-7 years.


20 years to recover. More if you consider the time it took to establish the A4.

This is worse, as there was fraud and they already admitted it. Now there's a stops sale on all diesels.

This will be in the top five all time vehicular f*** ups, and TDI as a brand is dead. Diesel cars in general may take a serious hit because of this.


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

Maximum_Download said:


> 20 years to recover. More if you consider the time it took to establish the A4.
> 
> This is worse, as there was fraud and they already admitted it. Now there's a stops sale on all diesels.
> 
> This will be in the top five all time vehicular f*** ups, and TDI as a brand is dead. Diesel cars in general may take a serious hit because of this.


Back to cheap diesel fuel?(hopeful)


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

I'm in awe.

Glad we bought last year.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

someguy123 said:


> Back to cheap diesel fuel?(hopeful)


You're assuming there will be cars to refuel.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Maximum_Download said:


> 20 years to recover. More if you consider the time it took to establish the A4.
> 
> This is worse, as there was fraud and they already admitted it. Now there's a stops sale on all diesels.
> 
> This will be in the top five all time vehicular f*** ups, and TDI as a brand is dead. Diesel cars in general may take a serious hit because of this.


The TDI brand doesn't matter. TDI sales in the US are a drop in the global sales bucket. 

The problem is the negative press. This will set VWOA back decades in terms of sales and marketing advancement in the US. This is the fast road to becoming the next Suzuki/Mitsubishi for VWOA.


----------



## surefooted (May 21, 2001)

GoHomePossum said:


> The TDI brand doesn't matter. TDI sales in the US are a drop in the global sales bucket.
> 
> The problem is the negative press. This will set VWOA back decades in terms of sales and marketing advancement in the US. This is the fast road to becoming the next Suzuki/Mitsubishi for VWOA.


This is nowhere close to becoming Suzuki or Mitsubishi.


----------



## rawk (Jul 29, 2000)

I'm a pretty diehard VW fan, but this is ridiculous! They deserve whatever punishment the EPA/Government hits them with. I had a TDI JSW that I loved, but feels a bit wrong now.... :laugh:


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> I'm in awe.
> 
> Glad we bought last year.


Sure - just avoid VW service from here on out, or they'll "fix" your TDI with lower economy and performance.


----------



## oldster1 (Oct 24, 2011)

Lwize said:


> Sure - just avoid VW service from here on out, or they'll "fix" your TDI with lower economy and performance.


Wow!, same mentality that just won't go away. You are part of the problem, not part of the solution....kind of like VW.


----------



## gonzo08452 (Apr 17, 2006)

oldster1 said:


> Wow!, same mentality that just won't go away. You are part of the problem, not part of the solution....kind of like VW.


He does have a point. You can't just choose not to have the recall preformed if it's still under factory warranty. The dealer cannot submit any warranty claims if there is an open campaign on that vin#.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

GoHomePossum said:


> The TDI brand doesn't matter. TDI sales in the US are a drop in the global sales bucket.
> 
> The problem is the negative press. This will set VWOA back decades in terms of sales and marketing advancement in the US. This is the fast road to becoming the next Suzuki/Mitsubishi for VWOA.


That's why I think VW just singlehandedly killed diesels' chances in the US.

Look, TDI was the sole and largest asterisk against the hybrid market. Every time someone says diesel is approaching a dead end one need merely look at TDI and say ".....someday.".

Now? VW likely blew to hell all their credibility in TDI in one magnificently bad decision. Who else has such a popular and complete range of diesel passenger cars?

Really, what's the path forward for VW diesels now? They may never be able to use the TDI Clean Diesel moniker ever again, and they will likely need to do a complete PR relaunch of their diesels again while proving they are now in compliance.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. I think TDIs will be phased out (if they even come back) and VW will have to put their eggs into another fuel economy basket - and I'm betting it will be hybrids.


----------



## 2.0_Mazda (Nov 3, 2010)

GoHomePossum said:


> Also, this is probably one of the most shameful things I have ever seen an automaker do. It's a tie between this and GM covering up the ignition debacle.


VW is stupid to have made the emissions defeat, but it makes our air less clean to breath. GM had a direct impact on drivers putting their lives at risk. GM's cover up is much worse imo


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

oldster1 said:


> Wow!, same mentality that just won't go away. You are part of the problem, not part of the solution....kind of like VW.


What mentality? This is the reality.


----------



## VarianceVQ (Jun 26, 2005)

I guess VW started building hybrids since they figured the jig would be up soon.  (However, the dealers could use those Jetta Hybrids as alternatives for customers wanting a fuel-efficient option, no?)


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

2.0_Mazda said:


> VW is stupid to have made the emissions defeat, but it makes our air less clean to breath. GM had a direct impact on drivers putting their lives at risk. GM's cover up is much worse imo


Sorry, but I feel this is just as bad, with a larger scope. Someone made this decision during development, whereas GM could have blamed it on incompetence.

And like I have said before, there is an entire class and brand of vehicle on the line here.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

Maximum_Download said:


> You're assuming there will be cars to refuel.


There'd better be. 

I definitely underestimated the severity of all of this, but I still wouldn't bother taking the car in like I said previously.


----------



## fknlo (Jun 30, 2004)

So if dealers aren't selling TDI's, I wonder if they'll take them on a trade in? That would be some more fuel on the class action fire if I wasn't able to trade in my car.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

I miss having a old MkI diesel. So much black smoke came out the tail pipe no one would ever dare tailgate me  
Obama would have hated that car.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

2ohgti said:


> I miss having a old MkI diesel. So much black smoke came out the tail pipe no one would ever dare tailgate me


mk1/mk2 diesel with no exhaust :thumbup:


----------



## VarianceVQ (Jun 26, 2005)

2ohgti said:


> I miss having a old MkI diesel. So much black smoke came out the tail pipe no one would ever dare tailgate me
> Obama would have hated that car.


I feel safe in saying most anyone near you on the road would have hated that car.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

VarianceVQ said:


> I feel safe in saying most anyone near you on the road would have hated that car.


Another way to break TCL


----------



## PABers (Oct 6, 2012)

Chilcoot said:


> Hmm, nothing in that story about how much pollution a single large cargo ship emits while docking in SF bay, or how much pollution California diesel cars collectively emit in a year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Marine Diesels sold in the US are also subject to EPA emission requirements which have become more stringent with time; the Government watches these closely as well and requires an annual inspection for compliance on US flagged vessels. Foreign ships; well thats still a problem. 

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/unite...ufacturer-and-shipbuilder-under-clean-air-act


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

Worth reposting it as I nearly choked laughing.


----------



## halbwissen (Jul 20, 2001)

Didn't VW make an announcement just days before all of this publicizing their plans to launch 20 more electric/hybrid vehicles by 2020?


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

1985Jetta said:


> Another way to break TCL


You are familiar with my stance on stance, but coal rolling and similar activities are absolutely ****ing stupid. Any modification that is specifically intended to cause harm, be it directly or indirectly, needs to end before the Feds get involved - because they will go too far and end up banning things that shouldn't have been banned, e.g.,aftermarket exhausts.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

GoHomePossum said:


> This will set VWOA back decades in terms of sales and marketing advancement in the US. This is the fast road to becoming the next Suzuki/Mitsubishi for VWOA.


Whoa there Chicken Little, if Taco Bell can still have long drive through lines regardless of their beef with beef, and ambercrombie and fish can ostracize chubby chicks while supplying the young with skinny jeans, and cochineal extract is something people have to google to remember to be outraged about, and a fat old man punching a producer lands him a show flush with cash that will be watched by even you, then no they will not be run out of murrica by pitch fork carrying torch laden yokels (they are still too busy in front of planned parenthood). VW had a scandal, a spectacular scandal, but in the end, no one died (directly) and thus it is eventually slated to die a lame death in the public eye. And it will soon be forgotten by the masses*

*_Silly_me incorporated does not condone the actions of VW, though we are immensely amused to know that such ballsy actions are still committed in this day and age of whistleblowers_come_lately and computer geeks always looking to outdo other computer geeks. This sort of nose thumbing gets a five Chuck Norris' outta five._


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

Silly_me said:


> Whoa there Chicken Little, if Taco Bell can still have long drive through lines regardless of their beef with beef, and ambercrombie and fish can ostracize chubby chicks while supplying the young with skinny jeans, and cochineal extract is something people have to google to remember to be outraged about, and a fat old man punching a producer lands him a show flush with cash that will be watched by even you, then no they will not be run out of murrica by pitch fork carrying torch laden yokels (they are still too busy in front of planned parenthood). VW had a scandal, a spectacular scandal, but in the end, no one died (directly) and thus it is eventually slated to die a lame death in the public eye. And it will soon be forgotten by the masses*


The general public won't care after a few weeks, but the Feds will. You don't cheat and/or lie to them and get away with it with any degree of ease.

Plus, you're going to have the angry TDI customers who will be experiencing notable drops in mileage once they take their cars in for the recall. That has lawsuit written all over it.


----------



## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

Interested to see how soon this get resolved, as we are looking to get rid of our 2.5l jetta for a tdi very soon 

wondering is the 3l v6 tdi that vw/ audi uses is next

also, it took them 5 years to figure this out? maybe I am missing something but this is hilarious


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> You are familiar with my stance on stance, but coal rolling and similar activities are absolutely ****ing stupid. Any modification that is specifically intended to cause harm, be it directly or indirectly, needs to end before the Feds get involved - because they will go too far and end up banning things that shouldn't have been banned, e.g.,aftermarket exhausts.


I definitely get that it could reach a point where aftermarket exhaust systems and such could be banned because of people intentionally rolling huge clouds of smoke or "harming" people. If it's not intended to cause harm (like you have an aftermarket exhaust or you derestricted your exhaust by removing the cat/muffler for "more power") I could care less, but I realize that the government won't care. 

As for Volkswagen blatantly ignoring emissions laws (whether I agree with said laws or not), I'm glad they're getting punished for it - but I'm glad it's at the owner's discretion (as it should be) on whether their TDI equipped Volkswagen is "fixed" or not. I never expected Volkswagen to go as far as stopping the sale of TDI vehicles, but I should have.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> You don't cheat and/or lie to them and get away with it with any degree of ease.


I work in regulatory compliance, and I think _If my company paid me what they pay out in fines I'd work 80 hour weeks every week and make sure they were never fined_. :laugh: (I would need a much bigger stick though). I'm sure this will be a big fine, but 18 billion USD? :sly: we'll see.



Crimping Is Easy said:


> Plus, you're going to have the angry TDI customers who will be experiencing notable drops in mileage once they take their cars in for the recall. That has lawsuit written all over it.


VW is use to dealing with angry customers :laugh:


----------



## MylesPH1 (Aug 6, 2000)

Well this showed up on my Facebook feed just now. Guess a lot of people are working overtime this weekend. 



The word "Diesel" is notably absent from this ad they threw up so quickly...


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

1985Jetta said:


> As for Volkswagen blatantly ignoring emissions laws (whether I agree with said laws or not), I'm glad they're getting punished for it - but I'm glad it's at the owner's discretion (as it should be) on whether their TDI equipped Volkswagen is "fixed" or not.. I never expected Volkswagen to go as far as stopping the sale of TDI vehicles, but I should have.


Not so fast. If you fail to have your TDI repaired to comply with emissions regulations, you will be in violation of federal law. 

I can see a number of scenarios:

1) After some time, The EPA asks VW for a list of VINs which have not had the recall performed. The EPA then "follows up" with those owners.

2) Your state's emissions testing center is asked by the EPA to specifically test the TDI for compliance in a way which fools VW's trick software. This results in your TDI failing emissions, requiring you to have the recall performed.

3) VW voids your warranty if you do not have the recall performed. Hope your HPFP doesn't go out!


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

GoHomePossum said:


> Not so fast. If you fail to have your TDI repaired to comply with emissions regulations, you will be in violation of federal law.
> 
> I can see a number of scenarios:
> 
> ...


1. I could see this happening, but what about others in this thread who have said they will not be having the recall work done?

2. Emissions testing? There is no emissions or even visual testing here, thankfully. 

3. I'd deal with it.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-19/vw-clean-diesel-scheme-exposed-as-u-s-weighs-criminal-charges



> *Criminal Exposure*
> Lawyers familiar with automotive law say the company could face criminal exposure if prosecutors agree with the EPA’s assertion about the defeat device. The Clean Air Act contains criminal provisions which apply to tampering with monitor devices, as well as making false statements to the EPA.
> 
> “What is so damning is that this was something actively pursued. This isn’t an oversight,” said Bloomberg Intelligence auto-industry analyst Kevin Tynan.
> ...


I guess it makes more sense now that only VW has been really successful in this segment of the market.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-19/vw-clean-diesel-scheme-exposed-as-u-s-weighs-criminal-charges


How many CEO's and CFO's went to jail due to the 08-09 banking meltdown and CDO fraud? Basically none. For no explainable reason the current administration doesn't believe in criminal charges against businesses. This will be no different. VW will get a slap on the wrist, pay a fine and go back to business as usual.


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

I don't work in automotive engineering, but I do have some experience in R&D, and I'm saying that no way in hell this was a rogue,small, engineering team that decided to do this. This had to have approval and acknowledgement of a bunch of folks.

Why?

Because before they did this, everybody in diesel powertrain team knew what the emissions really were, and how much difficulty they were having not hitting the lower numbers. Enter the malicious rogue engineering team who supposedly implemented the ruse, and suddenly the smog output numbers were on target!

Wouldn't then there be inquires from the unknowing non rogue engineers asking how this was done? Or upper management asking if this sudden R&D breakthrough idea is patentable???

That's why this was a joke. This HAD to have been widely known internally, and like all conspiracies they fail when somebody talks.

And no doubt some previous VW employee left the company (prob on bad terms) and ended up ratting VW out to either EPA OR to the new competitor they were working at next.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> I don't care at all about the environmental affects - that is absolutely political.


Not really clear to me how dirty air that kills people is "political" and therefore not worthy of your care. But I accept it.

Just hope you're a minority.


----------



## Chesed (Jan 21, 2004)

1985Jetta said:


> 3. I'd deal with it.


Read as: It'll sit derelict in a field behind a self storage facility until the cows come home. :laugh:


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

2ohgti said:


> I miss having a old MkI diesel. So much black smoke came out the tail pipe no one would ever dare tailgate me
> Obama would have hated that car.


Yeah, Obama. What a joke. That air breather. Hate those people.










*cough*
*hak* 
*gasp*


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Chilcoot said:


> Not really clear to me how dirty air that kills people is "political" and therefore not worthy of your care. But I accept it.
> 
> Just hope you're a minority.


Although the EPA is a political punching bag of sorts, the fact that the EPA continues to get funding from congress and enact progressively cleaner regulations across the board is thanks to the fact the general public does support living in a country where we have clean air and clean water. I mean, even president Bush signed the first major CAFE increase in 2007 which "the House and Senate had passed with broad support". It probably wasn't an issue that many Republicans brought up when they ran for re-election, but many still voted for it. The majority of voting Americans want clean air & water.


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/billvis...heating-cars-promises-internal-investigation/

VW CEO Winterkorn: “The trust of our customers and the public is and continues to be our most important asset,” Winterkorn insisted. “We at Volkswagen will do everything that must be done in order to re-establish the trust that so many people have placed in us, and we will do everything necessary in order to reverse the damage this has caused. This matter has first priority for me, personally, and for our entire Board of Management.”


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

Mazda 3s said:


> No one has mentioned resale value yet? :laugh::beer:


You're fked, man.


----------



## VarianceVQ (Jun 26, 2005)

randy said:


> This matter has first priority for me, personally, and for our entire Board of Management.”


Darn. Just when they were about to fast-track the launches of the GTD, Scirocco, Amarok and up! here.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

So the customer lawsuit regarding loss of performance/resale is under way and will likely be a year or two before a settlement is reached, but not mentioned yet is the upcoming shareholder lawsuit. Because this whole thing was likely authorized at an extremely high level in the company in order to continue for so many years, that shows that a significant portion of the company participated in it.

Investors buy stock in companies based on those companies telling the truth. Since VW seems to have lied about their products, this has exposed them to regulatory fines, recall repair costs, and customer lawsuits, all of which decrease shareholder value. The next shoe to drop will be the announcement of a class-action lawsuit by shareholders in VW against the company for falsely propping up the stock price by concealing illegal acts that exposed them to the aforementioned costs.

OTOH, this might be a good time to buy VW stock if you think they're bottoming out and will make a comeback soon after the storm blows over.


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

MylesPH1 said:


>


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

Really, VW's only remedy in this mess is to... bring the Polo to the US.
Then all will be forgiven.


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

Lwize said:


> Really, VW's only remedy in this mess is to... bring the Polo to the US.
> Then all will be forgiven.


They are too scared of Ralph.


----------



## lfungus (Oct 23, 2001)

I would be patient and see how this all unfolds. The remedy may be as simple as an ecu tune. I have had a lot of VW's and Audis and all have been chipped and been fairly 
reliable. All have produced more power and better gas mileage if driven normally. Maybe a sophisticated tune will satisfy everyone and comply with all regulations. If VW can do
this they should provide a super long warranty on TDI's for assurance and to rebuild the image of the brand. Many car makers probably have skeletons in the closet. For example
Subaru which has a touchy feely image was exposed using underpaid guest workers in Japan. But the spin doctors quickly covered that story. Hope this all works out. I was about to buy a TDI. I have a 2013 GTI but now commute about 800 miles a week and thought a diesel would make sense and be fairly fun with it's torque.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

lfungus said:


> they should provide a super long warranty


I think VW should just make their warranty longer, period. At least increase the powertrain portion. Acura covers powertrain for 6 years, 70k miles, for example. If VW wants to improve their image and take advantage of that "German engineering" cache they have played upon for years, they should stand behind it with a longer warranty.


----------



## THE KILLER RABBIT (Jun 2, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> I think VW should just make their warranty longer, period. At least increase the powertrain portion. Acura covers powertrain for 6 years, 70k miles, for example. If VW wants to improve their image and take advantage of that "German engineering" cache they have played upon for years, they should stand behind it with a longer warranty.


its interesting to note that different models have different warrenty's in a company's lineup. an example being that the touareg has a 10 year 100k mile powertrain warrenty. 

for comparison my ST has the exact same warrenty as comparable vw.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

1985Jetta said:


> Another way to break TCL


This is crap, and I had a 1980s diesel designed probably far before that decade. Spewing that crap is not cool. Its garbage and does nothing for anyone. 

The BBC has run a couple of stories about why diesel has become a (suddenly) popular talking point. Some of the stats are pretty shocking in terms of pollution. Living in Manchester, diesels were everywhere and so was soot. 

As for the power rating, I would not be surprised if there was a lawsuit. I remember when Mustang people sued due to their SVTs not having the advertised HP.



BBC said:


> Diesel cars: What's all the fuss about?
> By Richard Anderson Business reporter, BBC News
> 
> Diesel cars are taking a right hammering at the moment.
> ...


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Here is part II



BBC said:


> Diesel cars: Is it time to switch to a cleaner fuel?
> By Richard Anderson Business reporter, BBC News
> 
> In the 1920s, pregnant women were encouraged to drink Guinness to increase their iron intake.
> ...


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> The general public won't care after a few weeks, but the Feds will. You don't cheat and/or lie to them and get away with it with any degree of ease.


Unless you are a bank, but let's leave that out of the discussion.


----------



## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

Maybe a day late and a dollar short, but here is how it was discovered;

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ons-cheating-found-by-curious-clean-air-group


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

VW shares dropped 20% this morning. Time to buy!!


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

TyrolSport said:


> Maybe a day late and a dollar short, but here is how it was discovered;
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ons-cheating-found-by-curious-clean-air-group


Interesting.
They tested VW tdi in real world conditions to show Europe that diesels could be clean if forced by law...but then found out they were not.


----------



## RollingInDubs (Jan 23, 2003)

To everyone saying that a tune should fix this, I sincerely doubt it. If it could, VW would have done it all along as opposed to gaming the system and running the risk of the current issue at hand. My thinking is the cars will need significant fixes in order to pass.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

GoHomePossum said:


> VW shares dropped 20% this morning. Time to buy!!


I thought the same thing this morning but am not too sure. Its still $128/ share.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

Glad I traded in my 2011 JSW TDI in May.


----------



## Code Red! (Sep 22, 2011)

GoHomePossum said:


> 2) Your state's emissions testing center is asked by the EPA to specifically test the TDI for compliance in a way which fools VW's trick software. This results in your TDI failing emissions, requiring you to have the recall performed.


Well dang, maybe it is a good time to talk to my local dealer about swapping out my nevar lose for a '15 6spd MT TDI... since well ya know...

"West Virginia Incentives for Eco-Friendly Driving

Currently, West Virginia does not require emissions testing; however, there are a few ways West Virginians can benefit from eco-friendly driving."


----------



## DrewSXR (Jul 26, 2000)

VW is wiped of 16.9 billion US in market value, yikes...

https://beta.finance.yahoo.com/news...tting-rigged-us-emission-tests-081423265.html


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

Previous close was 161 Euros, now around 132.

http://www.boerse-frankfurt.de/en/equities/volkswagen+ag+st+ag+DE0007664005


----------



## rawk (Jul 29, 2000)

DrewSXR said:


> VW is wiped of 16.9 billion US in market value, yikes...
> 
> https://beta.finance.yahoo.com/news...tting-rigged-us-emission-tests-081423265.html


They could have almost paid the EPA fine with that!


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

BBC said:


> Another study published by green transport think-tank Transport & Environment and supported by data from Emissions Analytics, suggests that about nine in every ten new diesel cars exceed the limit. It showed that of the 24 cars tested, only three cars - an Audi A5, a VW Golf and a BMW 3-series - complied with EU regulations. At the other end of the scale, an Audi A8 emitted 22 times the limit.
> 
> The reason is very simple. Limits are based on tests conducted in laboratories where conditions do not reflect driving out on the open road.


 Can you post a link to the original story?


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

classicjetta said:


> Can you post a link to the original story?


http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34257424

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33254803


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

classicjetta said:


> Can you post a link to the original story?


With this development, I wonder if the Audi A5 and the Golf actually complied with the EU regulations or if they merely complied in test only.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

rawk said:


> They could have almost paid the EPA fine with that!


Irony, thy taste is bitter.... :wave:

My leathers are a lot cleaner from riding over here than in Germany. My jacket was grey (it's really white) on the front from the particulate. I had to wash it monthly with a small brush to get it clean. Here, not so much. I think I've had to clean it once since I got home. Big difference.

The reports that none of the car makers are passing the real-world testing are quite an indictment of Diesel and direct injection in general. Which sucks, because it is cool and I like driving TDIs.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Cooper said:


> Glad I traded in my 2011 JSW TDI in May.


You know what, my first reaction was anger - since I lost a lot of money getting rid of a TDI prematurely because of ECU issues. (My whole reason for posting in this thread in the first place). However, if this gets really bad - I'm very happy I got rid of mine, because the loss on trying to dump one now might be significantly worse.


This really might be unprecedented stuff we're witnessing here.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> You know what, my first reaction was anger - since I lost a lot of money getting rid of a TDI prematurely because of ECU issues. (My whole reason for posting in this thread in the first place). However, if this gets really bad - I'm very happy I got rid of mine, because the loss on trying to dump one now might be significantly worse.
> 
> 
> This really might be unprecedented stuff we're witnessing here.


What is best about this is the one of the biggest reason people argue for diesel is resale value...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> You know what, my first reaction was anger - since I lost a lot of money getting rid of a TDI prematurely because of ECU issues. (My whole reason for posting in this thread in the first place). However, if this gets really bad - I'm very happy I got rid of mine, because the loss on trying to dump one now might be significantly worse.
> 
> 
> This really might be unprecedented stuff we're witnessing here.


Why would anyone who owns one try to dump one now? Are you speculating that the fix that VW applies will make them undriveable? If Chevy can make a driveable diesel, then why would you expect VW not to be able to apply a fix that works fine?

The only people who might have issues would be those who wanted to trade in a used TDI against a new car right now at a VW dealer, as dealers might be leery about taking in a car that they can't immediately sell.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

I wonder if they're going to delay releasing the updated NMS Passat photos/information today due to the hubbub. It seems like the timing is less than ideal: "Yes, we're in a brouhaha right now, but here's THE NEW 2016 PASSAT!"


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

spockcat said:


> Why would anyone who owns one try to dump one now? Are you speculating that the fix that VW applies will make them undriveable? If Chevy can make a driveable diesel, then why would you expect VW not to be able to apply a fix that works fine?
> 
> The only people who might have issues would be those who wanted to trade in a used TDI against a new car right now at a VW dealer, as dealers might be leery about taking in a car that they can't immediately sell.


I'm simply saying the values might tank. That's not an unreasonable assumption at this point.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

spockcat said:


> If Chevy can make a driveable diesel, then why would you expect VW not to be able to apply a fix that works fine?


That may be true for the TDIs with AdBlue (like the Cruze and every other diesel sold in the US utilizes) but I fear the TDIs with a NOx trap may prove to be much more difficult to fix.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> I wonder if they're going to delay releasing the updated NMS Passat photos/information today due to the hubbub. It seems like the timing is less than ideal: "Yes, we're in a brouhaha right now, but here's THE NEW 2016 PASSAT!"


Maybe they will cancel the presentation in NY and just release the info on line.


----------



## A1an (Mar 22, 2007)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> I'm simply saying the values might tank. That's not an unreasonable assumption at this point.


I'm looking forward to seeing how the resale values play out at the end of this. May be a good time to try to sell one private party to those looking to buy new but obviously cannot due to the current circumstances.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

Hajduk said:


> Maybe they will cancel the presentation in NY and just release the info on line.


Oh boy. They're having a full-on PR release event!? I was thinking it was just going to be info/pics in PR release only, not an in-person reveal. Ugh. I bet some of their media folks barely got any sleep this weekend if they are going to go through with it.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

atomicalex said:


> My leathers are a lot cleaner from riding over here than in Germany. My jacket was grey (it's really white) on the front from the particulate. I had to wash it monthly with a small brush to get it clean. Here, not so much. I think I've had to clean it once since I got home. Big difference.


As much as people complain sometimes about getting there, it's really worth repeating that the US has the best air quality of any industrialized country in the world. I'm glad when I blow my nose at the end of the day that it isn't a weird brown color like when I got to London or Paris. :vampire:


----------



## vwpiloto (Nov 27, 2006)

VW shares down 20%.


----------



## Code Red! (Sep 22, 2011)

spockcat said:


> Why would anyone who owns one try to dump one now? Are you speculating that the fix that VW applies will make them undriveable? If Chevy can make a driveable diesel, then why would you expect VW not to be able to apply a fix that works fine?
> 
> The only people who might have issues would be those who wanted to trade in a used TDI against a new car right now at a VW dealer, as dealers might be leery about taking in a car that they can't immediately sell.


If a salesman got you into a '15 TDI Golf because of the touted 45+ EPA highway MPG and you suddenly got a chunk less than that due to the 'update' whatever that will be, you may not be happy. Especially if you dig a bit and see that the '15 TSI can get near that on regular... joe average may be quite perturbed.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Hajduk said:


> That may be true for the TDIs with AdBlue (like the Cruze and every other diesel sold in the US utilizes) but I fear the TDIs with a NOx trap may prove to be much more difficult to fix.


How does VW accomplish emissions in Europe? Are the cars sold there significantly different? Just seems to me like many here are speculating that the sun will crash into the earth over this but it could end up being little more than a slight decrease in MPG.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

classicjetta said:


> .... it's really worth repeating that the US has the best air quality of any industrialized country in the world.


Are you sure about that?

http://epi.yale.edu/epi/issue-ranking/air-quality


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

spockcat said:


> How does VW accomplish emissions in Europe?


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

They don't!

They are doing the same **** over there. Everyone is, it turns out. This is a huge mess for everyone selling Diesels. I said it early on in this thread, VW just got caught. This is not limited to VW, and Brussels is preparing a statement. I suspect we will hear from our friends in Belgium by the end of the day Tuesday.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

spockcat said:


> How does VW accomplish emissions in Europe? Are the cars sold there significantly different? Just seems to me like many here are speculating that the sun will crash into the earth over this but it could end up being little more than a slight decrease in MPG.


It's easier to meet EU's NOx limits than the EPA's.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> You know what, my first reaction was anger - since I lost a lot of money getting rid of a TDI prematurely because of ECU issues. (My whole reason for posting in this thread in the first place). However, if this gets really bad - I'm very happy I got rid of mine, because the loss on trying to dump one now might be significantly worse.
> 
> 
> This really might be unprecedented stuff we're witnessing here.


Yes and no on the unprecedented. Corporate shenanigans is nothing new. Made me think of Parke Davis and the off label promotion is Neurontin in the early 2000s. Marketing strategy was to widely promote the drug product for unapproved indications to greatly increase sales. Just looked up the fine for that one: $430 million. I think VWs fine may be a lot higher since it may be a demonstration of broad corporate involvement and strategy to bypass regulations.

Separately, was just starting to think of a new vehicle and getting rid of the CBEA/CJAA TDI for a number of reasons:

1. Coming up on 5 years which is around when I historically her the new car bug.
2. It was a stick. My wife knows how to drive a stick, but doesn't like to in stop-and-go traffic.
3. We've been going to OBX several times a year so we have always been taking her Escape, putting miles on it.
4. You sit low in the JSW compared to all the CUVs and SUVs out there and, as mentioned in 3, we take several long trips a year.
5. HPFP.
6. DPF.
7. Minor things that add up needed soon: tires, battery, front brakes that I would rather not do if I was thinking of getting a new car.

Chanced upon a low mileage, low in-service time, loaded Escape at a friend's dealership for a great price, and he gave me an acceptable trade-in price.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

A1an said:


> I'm looking forward to seeing how the resale values play out at the end of this. May be a good time to try to sell one private party to those looking to buy new but obviously cannot due to the current circumstances.


I was thinking the same thing. Maybe time to go fishing for me and see what I get. With my luck, i would sell the car and then VW would offer a handsome buyout.


----------



## vonnie77 (May 4, 2011)

Serious question:
Though not stated, are the 2.0/3.0L diesels in the higher end Audis also in non compliance?
I would think they are using the same codes but none of them were mentioned other than the original A3 with the older 2.0L engine.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

MCTB said:


> What is best about this is the one of the biggest reason people argue for diesel is resale value...


As an enthusiast I'm sad to see something happen that might hurt the sales of otherwise great cars.

As a human being I can't help but smile with a certain smug satisfaction. I don't think I'm alone on these forums in getting a bit tired of the VW-German superiority attitude. Well now we have a possible explanation as to why the VW group seems to have such superior diesel technology.

I notice one German powertrain engineer has yet to check into these threads opcorn:


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

vonnie77 said:


> Serious question:
> Though not stated, are the 2.0/3.0L diesels in the higher end Audis also in non compliance?
> I would think they are using the same codes but none of them were mentioned other than the original A3 with the older 2.0L engine.


Interesting, I wonder about Mercedes E250 sold in the US, which has a 4-cyl diesel. Every test that car has ever been pitted on, it gained raving reviews for power and mostly getting significant better mpg's than the window sticker. Truly MBZ and VW must have shared some tech here.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

atomicalex said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
> 
> They don't!
> 
> They are doing the same **** over there. Everyone is, it turns out. This is a huge mess for everyone selling Diesels. I said it early on in this thread, VW just got caught. This is not limited to VW, and Brussels is preparing a statement. I suspect we will hear from our friends in Belgium by the end of the day Tuesday.



Dang. .. you are right - for 9 out of 10 vehicles.
http://www.theguardian.com/environm...-in-breach-of-eu-pollution-rules-report-finds

I wonder how the 1 in 10 new diesels in meeting emission standards... large vehicle with urea injection?


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

BRealistic said:


> Dang. .. you are right - for 9 out of 10 vehicles.
> http://www.theguardian.com/environm...-in-breach-of-eu-pollution-rules-report-finds
> 
> I wonder how the 1 in 10 new diesels in meeting emission standards... large vehicle with urea injection?


It's ironic that the report says VW was the best performer.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> I wonder if they're going to delay releasing the updated NMS Passat photos/information today due to the hubbub. It seems like the timing is less than ideal: "Yes, we're in a brouhaha right now, but here's THE NEW 2016 PASSAT!"





Hajduk said:


> Maybe they will cancel the presentation in NY and just release the info on line.





silverspeedbuggy said:


> Oh boy. They're having a full-on PR release event!? I was thinking it was just going to be info/pics in PR release only, not an in-person reveal. Ugh. I bet some of their media folks barely got any sleep this weekend if they are going to go through with it.


They didn't cancel my train ticket. Maybe they're hoping Lenny will have another wardrobe malfunction to shift attention away from the TDI fiasco.

He might have to bend Mayor de Blasio over a speaker and butt**** him to cause that kind of distraction, though.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

Hajduk said:


> That may be true for the TDIs with AdBlue (like the Cruze and every other diesel sold in the US utilizes) but I fear the TDIs with a NOx trap may prove to be much more difficult to fix.


agreed.

if i had a pre-scr tdi that was included in the recall right now, id be pretty nervous.
post-scr, id just expect to see a bit more def consumption and not notice anything amiss otherwise.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

spockcat said:


> How does VW accomplish emissions in Europe? Are the cars sold there significantly different? Just seems to me like many here are speculating that the sun will crash into the earth over this but it could end up being little more than a slight decrease in MPG.





atomicalex said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
> 
> They don't!
> 
> They are doing the same **** over there. Everyone is, it turns out. This is a huge mess for everyone selling Diesels. I said it early on in this thread, VW just got caught. This is not limited to VW, and Brussels is preparing a statement. I suspect we will hear from our friends in Belgium by the end of the day Tuesday.


Exactly. They dont. GO and read the BBC articles I posted in this thread. And, no, it is not VW alone. It is an industry wide issue. Europe simply backed the wrong fuel and are now dealing with the fallout.

Actual diesel emissions vs EU limits*
Carmaker- Number of models tested- Lowest- Average- Highest
Audi- 3- 0.9 times EU limit- 8.2 times EU limit- 21.9 times EU limit
BMW- 7- 0.9- 4- 9.9
Citroen- 3- 3.2- 3.9- 5.4
Mazda- 2- 2.5- 2.9- 3.2
Mercedes- 3- 3- 4- 4.9
Peugeot- 1- 3- 3- 3
Vauxhall- 1- 9.5- 9.5- 9.5
VW- 3- 0.7- 2.6- 6.1
Volvo- 1- 2.2- 2.2- 2.2
Total- 24- 0.7- 4.5- 21.9


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

MCTB said:


> Exactly. They dont. GO and read the BBC articles I posted in this thread. And, no, it is not VW alone. It is an industry wide issue. Europe simply backed the wrong fuel and are now dealing with the fallout.


And again, that's why this VW TDI thing is, or could be, finally, the death of diesel.

If they are struggling this badly to not even pass, at what point do we say we have reached the law of diminishing returns? Our standards are more stringent than Europe, and I am going to be very interested to see if anyone else fails our test in the real world.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

MCTB said:


> Exactly. They dont. GO and read the BBC articles I posted in this thread. And, no, it is not VW alone. It is an industry wide issue. Europe simply backed the wrong fuel and are now dealing with the fallout.
> 
> Actual diesel emissions vs EU limits*
> Carmaker- Number of models tested- Lowest- Average- Highest
> ...


But per that list, Audi BMW and VW all have cars that do meet the emissions.
So it is possible.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

BRealistic said:


> Dang. .. you are right - for 9 out of 10 vehicles.
> http://www.theguardian.com/environm...-in-breach-of-eu-pollution-rules-report-finds
> 
> I wonder how the 1 in 10 new diesels in meeting emission standards... large vehicle with urea injection?


I have never been a fan of the way diesel cars have been given a free pass when it comes to emissions, although I thought it was finally getting better. It turns out, no, they have not actually gotten any better, they were just all cheating so effectively that they continued to get a free pass anyway.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

BRealistic said:


> But per that list, Audi BMW and VW all have cars that do meet the emissions.
> So it is possible.


But, with this scandal, do they really?


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

MCTB said:


> But, with this scandal, do they really?


I guess we'll be founding out Very SOON.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

You'reDrunk said:


> I guess we'll be *founding* out Very SOON.


:sly:


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

I think the biggest threat here is the cultural shifts that are occurring on opposite sides of the pond. U.S. customers are accepting diesels at what I believe are historically high rates, but the take rate here is still peanuts compared to what it is in Europe.

The thing is, though, Europeans don't really buy diesel out of preference (see also: manual transmissions). Add to that, European governments are souring on diesel in a big way, looking to ban it (to the extent to which that is possible) in urban centers. Europe's peak acceptance of diesel has come and gone. America's was really in its infancy, but it can't thrive without over-commitment from those who are selling it, and in the wake of this, it's unlikely that the marketing departments will have their hearts in it.

The fallout from this is going to be a big deal. It may not be a killing blow, but it will certainly be incapacitating. 

Oh, and for those who were eagerly anticipating Mazda overtaking VW in U.S. sales? You may just get your wish come December.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

1985Jetta said:


> :sly:


Don't mind him, he's drunk.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> Oh boy. They're having a full-on PR release event!? I was thinking it was just going to be info/pics in PR release only, not an in-person reveal. Ugh. I bet some of their media folks barely got any sleep this weekend if they are going to go through with it.


Yes with special musical guest Lenny Kravitz.

http://www.eventbrite.com/e/the-new-2016-volkswagen-passat-reveal-tickets-18352106645

I wonder if Lenny will show up now.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

GoHomePossum said:


> Don't mind him, he's dr*a*nk.


FTFY


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Hajduk said:


> Yes with special musical guest Lenny Kravitz.
> 
> http://www.eventbrite.com/e/the-new-2016-volkswagen-passat-reveal-tickets-18352106645
> 
> I wonder if Lenny will show up now.


I don't think even another Lenny exposure incident can downplay the EPA news. 

I wonder if VW will pull any details about TDI models from this press event


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Hajduk said:


> Yes with special musical guest Lenny Kravitz.
> 
> http://www.eventbrite.com/e/the-new-2016-volkswagen-passat-reveal-tickets-18352106645
> 
> I wonder if Lenny will show up now.


Itll still go on and Kravitz will show up. He needs to remind people that he still exists and VW can always point to the ferry that took everyone to the event as something that pollutes more than their cars. :laugh:


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

MCTB said:


> Itll still go on and Kravitz will show up. He needs to remind people that he still exists and VW can always point to the ferry that took everyone to the event as something that pollutes more than their cars. :laugh:


Both the NYC ferries and private subsidized waterway ferry boats are phasing in mixed bio-diesel these days. :thumbup:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/motorist/alternativefuel.shtml


----------



## Rob (Feb 19, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> I have never been a fan of the way diesel cars have been given a free pass when it comes to emissions, although I thought it was finally getting better. It turns out, no, they have not actually gotten any better, they were just all cheating so effectively that they continued to get a free pass anyway.


They have definitely gotten better, but haven't kept pace with regulations. Look at the chart.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

MCTB said:


> Itll still go on and Kravitz will show up. He needs to remind people that he still exists and VW can always point to the ferry that took everyone to the event as something that pollutes more than their cars. :laugh:


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Make sure to go into the underground parking garage at Woodland Park Crossing. I went there last week, and it looked like it was the VWoA parking annex.


Was out biking yesterday so I did indeed cruise through VWoA - decent amount of cars there, but I'm not sure if it was out of the ordinary for a Sunday. Did see a couple exec-level Audis pull out as I came in. Pretty quiet though. Pat Collins was not out front crafting hard-hitting local journalism. 



DrewSXR said:


> VW is wiped of 16.9 billion US in market value, yikes...
> 
> https://beta.finance.yahoo.com/news...tting-rigged-us-emission-tests-081423265.html


The report I saw said VW market cap was down $18B - oh, the irony... :laugh: Might be a good time to buy!


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

AZGolf said:


> I have never been a fan of the way diesel cars have been given a free pass when it comes to emissions, although I thought it was finally getting better. It turns out, no, they have not actually gotten any better, they were just all cheating so effectively that they continued to get a free pass anyway.


As long as old diesels still get a free pass for smog tests in CA :thumbup:


----------



## i81b4u (Mar 13, 2002)

*Typical*



> Screw the environment and kids with asthma,


So says the self righteous d-bag driving an 88' F150, go suck on your trucks tailpipe and tell us all how good that is _for the children_.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Both the NYC ferries and private subsidized waterway ferry boats are phasing in mixed *bio-diesel* these days. :thumbup:


Which has an even harder time with NOX emissions than regular squished dinosaurs.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

mhjett said:


> Pat Collins was not out front crafting hard-hitting local journalism.


Thanks. Just spit mashed potatoes all over my monitor.


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

Surf Green said:


> Thanks. Just spit mashed potatoes all over my monitor.


:laugh:

Seriously, he is such a clown.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

MCTB said:


> But, with this scandal, do they really?


Wait.
Are you questioning the exact list you posted to support your point?

(Mind is full of f÷÷÷)


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

mhjett said:


> :laugh:
> 
> Seriously, he is such a clown.


http://thisismylawn.com/2010/05/13/i-absolutely-hate-pat-collins/


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

AJB said:


> No way are they touching my wife's tdi. It they flash the car and she stops getting 50mpg.... Well, the EPA can s#@k it.





BRealistic said:


> Screw the environment and kids with asthma, I want to save a few bucks in diesel!
> And don't forget about Internet bragging rights!





i81b4u said:


> So says the self righteous d-bag driving an 88' F150, go suck on your trucks tailpipe and tell us all how good that is _for the children_.


Actually, someone sucking on their own tailpipe would be better for the children. 

Sorry to hear about your asthma.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

Hajduk said:


> Are you sure about that?
> 
> http://epi.yale.edu/epi/issue-ranking/air-quality


So despite that I'm going to stick to my statement. None of the countries ahead of the US have quite the same concentration of people and heavy industries like steel mills and oil refineries. Obviously the air in the Northwest Territory of Canada or Lapland is clean as can be, but thats not a comparable geography to most of the US. Perhaps I should say the US has the best *urban* air quality.


----------



## Al_Slade (May 22, 2015)

If you are an owner of a TDI are you going to de-badge it for fear of being stigmatized as a polluter? Of course it isn't your fault but it seems that more and more people are looking for ways to stimulate their mouth frothing. I am not predicting this will happen but I wont be surprised if it does.


----------



## intercedeGLI (Sep 8, 2002)

Al_Slade said:


> If you are an owner of a TDI are you going to de-badge it for fear of being stigmatized as a polluter? Of course it isn't your fault but it seems that more and more people are looking for ways to stimulate their mouth frothing. I am not predicting this will happen but I wont be surprised if it does.


Outside of automotive enthusiasts I bet this news has come and gone from their radar screens. They'd be no more likely to tell a TDI from a GTI today as they could a week ago.


----------



## dubdaze68 (Oct 29, 2001)

I do hate the hypocrisy of the whole EPA definition of "passenger car" when it comes to emissions regulations. VW, Audi, Mercedes, Chevy, etc., all have to jump through hoops to get the cars to pass, but the "Big Three" has diesel powered, 6 passenger trucks that don't have to come close to meeting any of those criteria...Because truck.

The estimates are going to be devastating to VAG, diesels make up 25% of US sales.


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

TyrolSport said:


> Maybe a day late and a dollar short, but here is how it was discovered;
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ons-cheating-found-by-curious-clean-air-group


Thanks for posting this, because it really caught me up.

So the Passat was less over than the Jetta, and the X5 worked as advertised. I've seen the BBC article posted as well with a number of other brands exceeding EU standards. Just how wide-ranging is this going to come out? Are AdBlue vehicles fine?


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

ByronLLN said:


> The fallout from this is going to be a big deal. It may not be a killing blow, but it will certainly be incapacitating.


Well, diesel was starting to circle the drain, but now it looks as if the bottom of the tub was hit by a shotgun. 

This thing just keeps getting bigger. I'd expect legislative changes before the end of the year in Europe (or at least next year), perhaps here, too. This thing is freakin' huge!


----------



## Code Red! (Sep 22, 2011)

intercedeGLI said:


> Outside of automotive enthusiasts I bet this news has come and gone from their radar screens. They'd be no more likely to tell a TDI from a GTI today as they could a week ago.


I checked into this earlier this morning, asking a friend of my Mom who is damn near clueless about cars, and she said she was very worried about her son's VW (not a TDI but a 2.5) and that their family won't be looking at VWs even though "those commercials with the old ladies are so funny". So this may be hitting harder than the island of TCL wants to think.


----------



## intercedeGLI (Sep 8, 2002)

coderedcomputing said:


> I checked into this earlier this morning, asking a friend of my Mom who is damn near clueless about cars, and she said she was very worried about her son's VW (not a TDI but a 2.5) and that their family won't be looking at VWs even though "those commercials with the old ladies are so funny". So this may be hitting harder than the island of TCL wants to think.


To the point that someone is going to target VW owners for...something? No. 



> If you are an owner of a TDI are you going to de-badge it for fear of being stigmatized as a polluter? Of course it isn't your fault but it seems that more and more people are looking for ways to stimulate their mouth frothing.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

coderedcomputing said:


> So this may be hitting harder than the island of TCL wants to think.


No doubt, I find it worrisome that there is someone that finds those ads funny


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

Air and water do mix said:


> Well, diesel was starting to circle the drain, *but now it looks as if the bottom of the tub was hit by a shotgun. *
> 
> This thing just keeps getting bigger. I'd expect legislative changes before the end of the year in Europe (or at least next year), perhaps here, too. This thing is freakin' huge!


TDI sales in the US right now:


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

TyrolSport said:


> Maybe a day late and a dollar short, but here is how it was discovered;
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ons-cheating-found-by-curious-clean-air-group





> The California watchdog and the U.S. Environment Protection Agency opened an investigation into Volkswagen in May 2014, according to letters published Friday. Talks between the parties went on for several months, with VW trying to replicate the West Virginia University results. *The company said it had identified the reasons for the higher emissions and proposed a fix. That resulted in a recall of nearly 500,000 U.S. vehicles in December to implement a software patch.*
> 
> The California agency continued to test VW cars after the recall began. It was concerned that real-world road tests couldn’t confirm that the software patch was working. Sure enough, nitrogen oxide emissions were still in violation of California and U.S. laws. The agency shared those findings with Volkswagen and the EPA on July 8.
> 
> ...


This actually makes it look even worse for VW. Apparently they got "caught" over a year ago and came back with a "software patch" that was supposed to get all the cars into compliance. But the patch wasn't enough, and further testing showed the "fixed" vehicles were still in violation. Only after that did VW admit intentional wrongdoing.

So they had a chance to set things right and possibly avoid further penalties, but instead decided to double down on the deception. I have trouble believing they were foolish and/or arrogant enough to blow this off if a software patch really could have fixed things at that point. Seems much more likely that getting these cars into compliance will take considerably more work than reflashing ECUs.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

improvius said:


> This actually makes it look even worse for VW. Apparently they got "caught" over a year ago and came back with a "software patch" that was supposed to get all the cars into compliance. But the patch wasn't enough, and further testing showed the "fixed" vehicles were still in violation. Only after that did VW admit intentional wrongdoing.
> 
> So they had a chance to set things right and possibly avoid further penalties, but instead decided to double down on the deception. I have trouble believing they were foolish and/or arrogant enough to blow this off if a software patch really could have fixed things at that point. Seems much more likely that getting these cars into compliance will take considerably more work than reflashing ECUs.


I'm sure they looked at all the possible scenarios, and figured the path they took was the least risky or had the lowest possible cost. this is a German company.....

looks like they were wrong.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

dubdaze68 said:


> I do hate the hypocrisy of the whole EPA definition of "passenger car" when it comes to emissions regulations. VW, Audi, Mercedes, Chevy, etc., all have to jump through hoops to get the cars to pass, but the "Big Three" has diesel powered, 6 passenger trucks that don't have to come close to meeting any of those criteria...Because truck.
> 
> The estimates are going to be devastating to VAG, diesels make up 25% of US sales.


1. Do not blame the EPA. Blame Congress.
2. The big three would also have to "jump through hoops" if they offered diesel powered passenger cars. They, smartly, do not.


----------



## dos (Jul 5, 2009)

Canada stop sale, how deep will the rabbit hole be in the end?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...sions-scandal/article26452624/?service=mobile


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

MCTB said:


> 1. Do not blame the EPA. Blame Congress.
> 2. The big three would also have to "jump through hoops" if they offered diesel powered passenger cars. They, smartly, do not.


_Two_ of the big three. Cruze Diesel. :beer:

I wonder how much Ford, Chrysler and Mazda knew when they were talking about bringing diesels into the U.S. and subsequently changed their minds...


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

I find this amusing at most. Just makes me even happier to be a vw fan and longtime owner. Seems the US will do whatever it takes to stopping another automaker of becoming competitive of the big three. First it was Toyota and now the jetta becomes a top seller and all the sudden it's vw. I hope this does turn the half- hearted away from buying vw's. And whoever mentioned earlier about a vw not being able to tell if it's running or not, don't know what there talking about. The proper diag/ obd2 will tell you if your window is working correctly. Vw are very sophisticated and technically advanced. They have quietly invented a majority of things used in today's cars that others have copied and used as marketing points.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

You'reDrunk said:


> I'm sure they looked at all the possible scenarios, and figured the path they took was the least risky or had the lowest possible cost. this is a German company.....
> 
> looks like they were wrong.


Makes me wonder if this was more of a failure by the engine engineering departments. I can picture upper management giving them an unrealistic emissions target and saying meet this or else. So engineering *meets* the target thanks to a little cheat. Upper management trusts what the engineers feed them so this lie goes on for years. When confronted a year back engineering tries to apply a software fix to hide what they did. 

Perhaps not all that different than Hyundai expect this wasn't just some incorrect numbers entered into test formulas by accident. 

In fact I wonder if this is the reason shomie was yet to post on the subject. The various powertrain departments could be under serious review right now to find out where this started and which heads need to roll.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Air and water do mix said:


> _Two_ of the big three. Cruze Diesel. :beer:
> 
> I wonder how much Ford, Chrysler and Mazda knew when they were talking about bringing diesels into the U.S. and subsequently changed their minds...


Forgot about the Cruze, probably due to my not ever having seen one in the wild.


They ran the numbers. They probably figured out it was a losing proposition.


----------



## TangoRed (Sep 7, 2005)

htr said:


> I find this amusing at most. Just makes me even happier to be a vw fan and longtime owner. *Seems the US will do whatever it takes to stopping another automaker of becoming competitive of the big three.* First it was Toyota and now the jetta becomes a top seller and all the sudden it's vw. I hope this does turn the half- hearted away from buying vw's. And whoever mentioned earlier about a vw not being able to tell if it's running or not, don't know what there talking about. The proper diag/ obd2 will tell you if your window is working correctly. Vw are very sophisticated and technically advanced. They have quietly invented a majority of things used in today's cars that others have copied and used as marketing points.


LOL. Who are you people?! VW CHEATED- they even admitted it! End of story.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

MCTB said:


> 1. Do not blame the EPA. Blame Congress ...


You sound like me. 

Anytime someone says "screw the FDA," I reply with the fact that it's actually congress. Congress passes screwball laws and they are just thrown to FDA, EPA, etc. with a mandate to enact and enforce.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

htr said:


> I find this amusing at most. Just makes me even happier to be a vw fan and longtime owner. Seems the US will do whatever it takes to stopping another automaker of becoming competitive of the big three. First it was Toyota and now the jetta becomes a top seller and all the sudden it's vw. I hope this does turn the half- hearted away from buying vw's. And whoever mentioned earlier an o it a vw not being able to tell if it's running for not don't know what there talking about. The proper diag/ obd2 will tell you if your window is working correctly. Vw are very sophisticated and technically advanced. They have quietly invented a majority of things used in today's cars that others have copied and used as marketing points.


They can do all these fabulous things, yet they can't pass a simple emissions test without resorting to cheating.

And do you really think the reason the Feds are coming down on them is to stifle competition? My friend, they cheated on a federal emissions test and then lied about it. VW's sales in the US are so poor anyway, it's not like they posed a significant enough threat to another company to warrant the Feds stepping in.


----------



## dcomiskey (Mar 13, 2002)

The egregious nature of what VW did is inexcusable. I see no silver lining in this for them. I sure as hell won't ever buy a VW again (Oh, wait, I already decided that years ago). I suspect the fines are going to be massive and I question the future of the brand as far as it goes here in the US. The Justice Dept should come down on them with a f*cking sledgehammer. Then again, expecting the JD to do anything to punish those with big pockets is typically a pipe dream. 

:thumbdown: Shame on you, VW.


----------



## oldster1 (Oct 24, 2011)

dubdaze68 said:


> I do hate the hypocrisy of the whole EPA definition of "passenger car" when it comes to emissions regulations. VW, Audi, Mercedes, Chevy, etc., all have to jump through hoops to get the cars to pass, but the "Big Three" has diesel powered, 6 passenger trucks that don't have to come close to meeting any of those criteria...Because truck.
> 
> The estimates are going to be devastating to VAG, diesels make up 25% of US sales.


Could not agree more with dubdaze68. Shows the power of auto companies in the US, what big money does in Congress. Get Lobbyists out now...ain't holding my breath.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

MCTB said:


> The big three would also have to "jump through hoops" if they offered diesel powered passenger cars. They, smartly, do not.


I don't know if it was them being smart or because Americans grew up hating diesels because of the big three and thus there was no strive for them to reintroduce the engine despite the fact that the Europeans, who've been navel deep in the juice for eons now, started getting successful in peddling the wares to the American customer.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

htr said:


> I find this amusing at most. Just makes me even happier to be a vw fan and longtime owner. Seems the US will do whatever it takes to stopping another automaker of becoming competitive of the big three. First it was Toyota and now the jetta becomes a top seller and all the sudden it's vw. I hope this does turn the half- hearted away from buying vw's. And whoever mentioned earlier about a vw not being able to tell if it's running or not, don't know what there talking about. The proper diag/ obd2 will tell you if your window is working correctly. Vw are very sophisticated and technically advanced. They have quietly invented a majority of things used in today's cars that others have copied and used as marketing points.


I've had a really long day at work so far with system failures, etc. 

Thanks for giving me a much-needed laugh.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

htr said:


> I find this amusing at most. Just makes me even happier to be a vw fan and longtime owner. Seems the US will do whatever it takes to stopping another automaker of becoming competitive of the big three. First it was Toyota and now the jetta becomes a top seller and all the sudden it's vw. I hope this does turn the half- hearted away from buying vw's. And whoever mentioned earlier about a vw not being able to tell if it's running or not, don't know what there talking about. The proper diag/ obd2 will tell you if your window is working correctly. Vw are very sophisticated and technically advanced. They have quietly invented a majority of things used in today's cars that others have copied and used as marketing points.


----------



## Slushbox254 (Aug 9, 2015)

fknlo said:


> So if dealers aren't selling TDI's, I wonder if they'll take them on a trade in? That would be some more fuel on the class action fire if I wasn't able to trade in my car.


I don't think any dealer will ever turn away any trade and lose a new deal... BUT if they can't sell it on their lot, that means auction, which means a much lower price they will be willing to give for it.


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

htr said:


> And whoever mentioned earlier about a vw not being able to tell if it's running or not, don't know what there talking about.


Right?? Shows what they know. If the CEL is on, the engine is running.


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> They can do all these fabulous things, yet they can't pass a simple emissions test without resorting to cheating.
> 
> And do you really think the reason the Feds are coming down on them is to stifle competition? My friend, they cheated on a federal emissions test and then lied about it. VW's sales in the US are so poor anyway, it's not like they posed a significant enough threat to another company to warrant the Feds stepping in.


If its such a simple test others would offer a passenger diesel.
And I'm pretty sure the jetta is a best seller in the US. And yes the can and have done fabulous things. Should we really get into what the others have done at the cost of jobs and our $$ to avoid regulations. That a o Ulf require a whole new thread.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

MCTB said:


> Forgot about the Cruze, probably due to my not ever having seen one in the wild.
> 
> 
> They ran the numbers. They probably figured out it was a losing proposition.


I've seen a couple puttering around. It's not like they stand out, you know. :beer:

As far as 'the numbers' go I didn't mean profits. Did the guys at Ford, Chryco and Mazda think "Wow! I wish we could do it as well as VW did". Did they try to figure out how to do it and wonder _how_ VW did it? Did they realize VW _must've_ been cheating? Did they think that VW simply didn't make much money on them? 

You _know_ they dismantled more than a few to investigate their own programs, so they must've figured out at least _some_ of this.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

spockcat said:


> The only people who might have issues would be those who wanted to trade in a used TDI against a new car right now at a VW dealer, as dealers might be leery about taking in a car that they can't immediately sell.


Do we know that VW dealers are also prohibited from selling USED diesels? I haven't seen that. I think the EPA's action barring sales only applies to new vehicles, am I wrong?

It may be that the market for used TDIs is currently awful, but that's a different question.


----------



## CruznMalibu (Mar 11, 2010)

Air and water do mix said:


> Well, diesel was starting to circle the drain, but now it looks as if the bottom of the tub was hit by a shotgun.


Not so fast ..... GM and other car manufactures will be increasing their diesel engine portfolio's. I'm sure the CEO's of these companies are on the phone with their
powertrain teams right now. 

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...m-plans-to-launch-more-diesel-vehicles-in-u.s.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Slushbox254 said:


> I don't think any dealer will ever turn away any trade and lose a new deal... BUT if they can't sell it on their lot, that means auction, which means a much lower price they will be willing to give for it.


It sounds like the stop-sale only applies to new, never-registered cars.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

htr said:


> If its such a simple test others would offer a passenger diesel.
> And I'm pretty sure the jetta is a best seller in the US. And yes the can and have done fabulous things. Should we really get into what the others have done at the cost of jobs and our $$ to avoid regulations. That a o Ulf require a whole new thread.


Others don't sell diesels because nobody wants the bloody things.

And yes, the Jetta sells, but not in big enough numbers for it to pose a threat to more well established companies. By the way, we're not discussing other companies' cover ups, we're discussing VW's current one. 

Why is it some of you fanboys seem incapable of accepting the fact that your company messed up? You can still like them and their cars, but just admit they blew it on this one.


----------



## pasateando (Mar 19, 2002)

as much as I have been a VW fan for over 20 years, they deserve whatever penalty/fines/loss of sales/law suits/etc that will come their way.

What they did is plain, out right, FRAUD!


----------



## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

htr said:


> I find this amusing at most. Just makes me even happier to be a vw fan and longtime owner. Seems the US will do whatever it takes to stopping another automaker of becoming competitive of the big three. First it was Toyota and now the jetta becomes a top seller and all the sudden it's vw. I hope this does turn the half- hearted away from buying vw's. And whoever mentioned earlier about a vw not being able to tell if it's running or not, don't know what there talking about. The proper diag/ obd2 will tell you if your window is working correctly. Vw are very sophisticated and technically advanced. They have quietly invented a majority of things used in today's cars that others have copied and used as marketing points.


Volkswagen has already admitted wrongdoing. What else is there to understand? 

I'm a VW fan, but they screwed up on this. Big time. If the EU regulators can demonstrate that VW was involved in similar schenanigans on the other side of the pond, they're in for a whirlwind of colossal hurt. 

Since this investigation has been ongoing for about a year, my guess is that VW is trying to get ahead of the ball and get the most favorable kind of deal it can.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

CruznMalibu said:


> Not so fast ..... GM and other car manufactures will be increasing their diesel engine portfolio's. I'm sure the CEO's of these companies are on the phone with their
> powertrain teams right now.
> 
> http://www.autonews.com/article/201...m-plans-to-launch-more-diesel-vehicles-in-u.s.


Look at what's happening in Europe with diesels right now, and they get more of a "pass" on NOX than we do. The time of diesel passenger cars was already waning, but this scandal will almost certainly accelerate that. Without big R&D in Europe to prop up diesels for the U.S. market it's going to be exceedingly difficult to justify diesel drivetrain development, especially for smaller cars. 

Everything is going to start switching over to electrification, it was always a matter of "when". This will have accelerated that, too.


----------



## StlVDub (Aug 1, 2010)

htr said:


> I find this amusing at most. Just makes me even happier to be a vw fan and longtime owner. Seems the US will do whatever it takes to stopping another automaker of becoming competitive of the big three. First it was Toyota and now the jetta becomes a top seller and all the sudden it's vw. I hope this does turn the half- hearted away from buying vw's. And whoever mentioned earlier about a vw not being able to tell if it's running or not, don't know what there talking about. The proper diag/ obd2 will tell you if your window is working correctly. Vw are very sophisticated and technically advanced. They have quietly invented a majority of things used in today's cars that others have copied and used as marketing points.





htr said:


> If its such a simple test others would offer a passenger diesel.
> And I'm pretty sure the jetta is a best seller in the US. And yes the can and have done fabulous things. Should we really get into what the others have done at the cost of jobs and our $$ to avoid regulations. That a o Ulf require a whole new thread.


Is this dude for real??? I mean...I own a VW, I love VW, but.... :facepalm:

These statements are so unbelievably ignorant that either he's trolling or that retard-meter is WAY off the charts.

Thanks for the chuckle though.


----------



## Professor Gascan (Sep 11, 2002)

Something about this whole thing just reeks of Piech. I feel like at a bare minimum he knew about it, and mostly likely helped put it in place. He's got enough arrogance to think they would never get caught.


----------



## Code Red! (Sep 22, 2011)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Why is it some of you fanboys seem incapable of accepting the fact that your company messed up? You can still like them and their cars, but just admit they blew it on this one.


I enjoy my VWs as much as the next guy, but this is some serious stuff. The long-term fallout from this could be huge... or it could be a typical corporate whoops swept under the carpet. We shall see.

Wonder if this thread will break the page count of the Clarkson thread.


----------



## dos (Jul 5, 2009)

htr said:


> I find this amusing at most. Just makes me even happier to be a vw fan and longtime owner. Seems the US will do whatever it takes to stopping another automaker of becoming competitive of the big three. First it was Toyota and now the jetta becomes a top seller and all the sudden it's vw. I hope this does turn the half- hearted away from buying vw's. And whoever mentioned earlier about a vw not being able to tell if it's running or not, don't know what there talking about. The proper diag/ obd2 will tell you if your window is working correctly. Vw are very sophisticated and technically advanced. They have quietly invented a majority of things used in today's cars that others have copied and used as marketing points.


Ah yes, the old excuse the government is out to get those pesky foreigners. You seem to have forgot how Ford got hit for not meeting EPA milage claims, Fords death roll Explorer's with exploding tires or GM's huge ignition lock problem. Here's the thing all the automakers are set to the same standards, you cheat then you gotta pay.

Instead of blaming the government how about blaming the corporation that wanted to be the biggest player in this field and couldn't do it so they purposely cheated to make big dollars. If anything this makes me look up to companies like Mazda who couldn't get their Sky-Active Mazda 6 in the US but did it by the book. What else is VW not telling us about their methods to get that 800k US sales goal?

People always want to take the government out of the equation. What is the answer then, corporations auditing themselves? I'm sure that would work just great./sarcasm off.

The wife and myself have owned 5 VAG cars since 2002 and I can even see that this is bad.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

Air and water do mix said:


> Everything is going to start switching over to electrification, it was always a matter of "when". This will have accelerated that, too.


Yep.

In 2005, I accepted that my next car wouldn't be a diesel. My current one should last long enough that electric/range extended electric is a good bet for my next one.


----------



## Crammarc (Feb 27, 2015)

Was planning on signing for a 16' Aub PP GTI this evening in Canada. Does this provide me as the consumer with any leeway to my deal? Should I be concerned buying into VW at all? Thanks for any advice!


----------



## StlVDub (Aug 1, 2010)

dos said:


> The wife and myself have owned 5 VAG cars since 2002 and I can even see that this is bad.


I've owned four VWs since 2002 and I agree with you as well. This is pretty bad. VWoA already has serious issues of tanking sales and now practically their biggest draw in this country gets called out for being, in a way, fraudulent??? That's going to hurt them bigtime. Not to mention the possibility of BILLIONS in fines, and the fact that as of now dealers can't even sell TDIs at all. IMO, I bet a lot of places will be weary to take them in on trade. I don't necessarily think VWoA will exit because of this, however, they are going to have one hell of an uphill battle.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

dos said:


> If anything this makes me look up to companies like Mazda who couldn't get their Sky-Active Mazda 6 in the US but did it by the book.


Dear Mazda,

I'm so sorry for those mean things I said about your delaying the diesel Mazda 6. You obviously know what you're doing, unlike some people.

Best,

classicjetta


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Crammarc said:


> Was planning on signing for a 16' Aub PP GTI this evening in Canada. Does this provide me as the consumer with any leeway to my deal? Should I be concerned buying into VW at all? Thanks for any advice!


What's an Aub PP GTI? Special Canadian model? Does it have a diesel engine?


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Others don't sell diesels because nobody wants the bloody things.
> 
> And yes, the Jetta sells, but not in big enough numbers for it to pose a threat to more well established companies. By the way, we're not discussing other companies' cover ups, we're discussing VW's current one.
> 
> Why is it some of you fanboys seem incapable of accepting the fact that your company messed up? You can still like them and their cars, but just admit they blew it on this one.


Oh I can admit they messed up. But I do think it's amusing that they programmed the car to detect emmisssions test and give a false reading while doing so.. And there emmissions next to a US diesel truck are what? Yeah that may have fudged the numbers but our own trucks have been fudging the environment for years. Passenger car regulations are much more gruelling than for trucks, but that's ok right? And not even sure what fanboy is suppose to mean about someone with a daughter in college and son graduated from college.vws are not for everyone. Its Irisk and reward for sure.
You either have to have the $ to have them properly maintained or learn to work on them yourself. It's an enthusiasts car. Always has been. If you just want a car to jump in and go shopping. Or point a to b. Then it's not for you . If you want to feel the road and a spiritual experience from the relationship with your car .then maybe so.


----------



## StlVDub (Aug 1, 2010)

Crammarc said:


> Was planning on signing for a 16' Aub PP GTI this evening in Canada. Does this provide me as the consumer with any leeway to my deal? Should I be concerned buying into VW at all? Thanks for any advice!


I doubt there would be any extra leeway on a GTI now, and I wouldn't be all that concerned myself. Since this is a diesel issue I wouldn't really foresee the gas models taking any sort of a big hit.


----------



## StlVDub (Aug 1, 2010)

htr said:


> Oh I can admit they messed up. But I do think it's amusing that they programmed the car to detect emmisssions test and give a false reading while doing so.. And there emmissions next to a US diesel truck are what? Yeah that may have fudged the numbers but our own trucks have been fudging the environment for years. Passenger car regulations are much more gruelling than for trucks, but that's ok right? And not even sure what fanboy is suppose to mean about someone with a daughter in college and son graduated from college.vws are not for everyone. Its Irisk and reward for sure.
> You either have to have the $ to have them properly maintained or learn to work on them yourself. It's an enthusiasts car. Always has been. If you just want a car to jump in and go shopping. Or point a to b. Then it's not for you . If you want to feel the road and a spiritual experience from the relationship with your car .then maybe so.


:facepalm:

Please stop, my sides hurt :laugh:


----------



## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

Air and water do mix said:


> Look at what's happening in Europe with diesels right now, and they get more of a "pass" on NOX than we do. The time of diesel passenger cars was already waning, but this scandal will almost certainly accelerate that. Without big R&D in Europe to prop up diesels for the U.S. market it's going to be exceedingly difficult to justify diesel drivetrain development, especially for smaller cars.
> 
> Everything is going to start switching over to electrification, it was always a matter of "when". This will have accelerated that, too.




http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/21/hybrids-replace-diesels-mercedes/
Hybrids to slowly replace diesels at Mercedes



autoblog.com said:


> German automakers have had some success bringing diesel-powered vehicles in America in recent years, but that may not last much longer. A product planner from Mercedes-Benz we spoke to in Austria apparently believes hybrid setups may be more favorable in the long run, and electrified hybrids will eventually replace oil burners. That's why most every concept car we've seen in the last few years features some sort of hybrid or plug-in hybrid setup while there have been very few diesels.
> 
> "Yes, diesel is technically complex, and very expensive. The additives to reduce particulate matter are very costly. You'll see more hybrids to meet the changing regulations," according to our source. We've seen this exact scenario play out with Mazda, which has struggled to bring its 2.2-liter diesel engine to America, citing the costly process to reduce emissions in order to meet California-level standards while still maintaining suitable performance for the US market. It's certainly interesting that this news comes hot on the heels of revelations that VW, the automaker that offers the most diesel-powered models in the US, was found in violation of emissions rules on its popular 2.0-liter TDI engine.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

htr said:


> . If you want to feel the road and a spiritual experience from the relationship with your car .then maybe so.


I just can't even.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

From an environmental conservation standpoint, and the fact that I have no intentions of ever buying a diesel, this doesn't actually bother me or make me angry. I'd be much more concerned with the over-fishing of the oceans or the countless other environmental issues than 500k cars polluting more than they were suppose to.


As far as VW goes, they'll get some flack for another few weeks and then the general public (outside the car enthusiasts) will most likely forget about this just like they do every other issue that arises. The people that never buy VW will continue to never buy VW. Does anyone outside the car enthusiast circle still talk about GMs ignition switch problem? Or the $2.5 billion fine against Credit Suisse last year by the US Government? Both of which were huge stories when they came out.

VW obviously deserves whatever fine they get and any legal action against them, but in 6 months time the general public will forget about all of this.

Maybe VW will use this as an incentive to increase some of the warranties and do a better job of winning people over. Maybe they'll even force Audi to put a manual back in the 2017 S4 :laugh:


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

intercedeGLI said:


> Outside of automotive enthusiasts I bet this news has come and gone from their radar screens. They'd be no more likely to tell a TDI from a GTI today as they could a week ago.


I whole heartily agree *chuckle chuckle*. Ironically, years after the Prius fiasco even non-enthusiast, or car people still joke about un-intended accelerating Prius cars. Nothing you could de-badge about those though, as the trademark shape of the car was easily targeted by anyone. 


I do think however if the TDI program continues, VW/ Audi will likely come up with a different, but catchy name for it ala "EcoDiesel" as an example. EuroDiesel, EarthDreamsDiesel, EarthDiesel etc....But they will likely want the general public to all but forget about the acronyms TDI.


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> I just can't even.


Then don't. Some don't get it. Obviously.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

htr said:


> Then don't. Some don't get it. Obviously.


Just so you know, none of us "get it". :laugh:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Cutandthrust said:


> I do think however if the TDI program continues, VW/ Audi will likely come up with a different, but catchy name for it ala "EcoDiesel" as an example. EuroDiesel, EarthDreamsDiesel, EarthDiesel etc....But they will likely want the general public to all but forget about the acronyms TDI.


GreenGas ® ™


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

atomicalex said:


> Just so you know, none of us "get it". :laugh:


Your right ,im the only one. So be it.


----------



## Cousin Eddie (Dec 17, 2005)

htr said:


> If you want to feel the road and a spiritual experience from the relationship with your car .then maybe so.


:laugh:

Dub Lyfe  (so you wanna be a gangster, all dat ****).


----------



## oldster1 (Oct 24, 2011)

*And so it begins.....*

http://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...ational-Lawsuit-Volkswagen-Group#.VgBARd9Viko


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Well my neighbor that everyone calls "one upper" had to knock on my door to let me know our TDI suck, and so does VW. He is a Cadillac sales guy and owns a Cruise TDI. He said," I don't get it, our 500hp Cruize TDI w/ out a car passes emissions". My wife was calling me, so I said, gotta go. 
Why must people have to harass you for owning something? I would never go and do that.
Besides, I like the car because its fun to drive. Don't care if its the best car ever made or that VW did this. If it were a safety issue then I would care.


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

Cousin Eddie said:


> :laugh:
> 
> Dub Lyfe  (so you wanna be a gangster, all dat ****).


 What's this? Don't get it. Dublife,gangster,dat....???? This means nothing or relates to me in any way. Sorry wrong demographic.


----------



## Doug Butabi (Oct 15, 2009)

htr said:


> You either have to have the $ to have them properly maintained or learn to work on them yourself. It's an enthusiasts car. Always has been. If you just want a car to jump in and go shopping. Or point a to b. Then it's not for you . If you want to feel the road and a spiritual experience from the relationship with your car .then maybe so.


The residents of Ohio continue to amaze me.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

I think it's hysterical that you people think this will blow over and things will be a-ok.

Winterkorn will be shown the door, the diesel portfolio will be shut down indefinitely, and VW will have about 10 years worth of soul searching as a result of this.

This derails EVERYTHING.


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

Doug Butabi said:


> The residents of Ohio continue to amaze me.


Really, cuz I like to drive a car that some don't. I guess that could be amazing, idk.


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

2ohgti said:


> Well my neighbor that everyone calls "one upper" had to knock on my door to let me know our TDI suck, and so does VW. He is a Cadillac sales guy and owns a Cruise TDI. He said," I don't get it, our 500hp Cruize TDI w/ out a car passes emissions". My wife was calling me, so I said, gotta go.
> Why must people have to harass you for owning something? I would never go and do that.
> Besides, I like the car because its fun to drive. Don't care if its the best car ever made or that VW did this. If it were a safety issue then I would care.


That is kind of low.

Still, don't take it on the road. Greenpeace could picket you for driving your pollution-mobile and be even worse than a smug neighbor knocking on your door


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

For those saying that trucks and SUVs get a total free pass, that isn't the case at all. For those under 6500 pounds, for example the Dodge Ram with the 3.0 diesel, it complies with the same EPA Tier 2, Bin 5 standard as the VW Golf/Jetta Sportwagen:










Yes, heavier trucks have a little easier time with emissions but _all_ diesel vehicles all the way up to 18-wheelers have to pass very strict emissions standards now. In California, even ships have to comply with California smog laws!


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

NYT reporting that VW lied to EPA for a year to explain away differences in test and real-world readings. Not a fan of over-regulation, but EPA should hand their heads to them on this one.

I worked in a regulatory position in industry and would never have considered submitting fraudulent information to FDA. In fact, I was so squeaky clean that I had FDA calling me for advice on a competitor's product.


----------



## StlVDub (Aug 1, 2010)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> I just can't even.





Doug Butabi said:


> The residents of Ohio continue to amaze me.


I am enjoying everything he is saying though. Thoroughly. :laugh::laugh::laugh:



Maximum_Download said:


> I think it's hysterical that you people think this will blow over and things will be a-ok.
> 
> Winterkorn will be shown the door, the diesel portfolio will be shut down indefinitely, and VW will have about 10 years worth of soul searching as a result of this.
> 
> This derails EVERYTHING.


Agreed. I absolutely love VW, and at times I would consider myself a bit of a fanboy...but I'm also not stupid. This is serious, and VWoA is now in deep sh!t. Recovery, especially for the TDIs (if even possible now) is going to be one hell of an uphill battle for them. It's sad, really. But unfortunately the truth. 

And yes, 100% Winterkorn will be shown the door. Friday I believe they are discussing that matter.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

htr said:


> Oh I can admit they messed up. But I do think it's amusing that they programmed the car to detect emmisssions test and give a false reading while doing so.. And there emmissions next to a US diesel truck are what? Yeah that may have fudged the numbers but our own trucks have been fudging the environment for years. Passenger car regulations are much more gruelling than for trucks, but that's ok right? And not even sure what fanboy is suppose to mean about someone with a daughter in college and son graduated from college.vws are not for everyone. Its Irisk and reward for sure.
> You either have to have the $ to have them properly maintained or learn to work on them yourself. It's an enthusiasts car. Always has been. If you just want a car to jump in and go shopping. Or point a to b. Then it's not for you . If you want to feel the road and a spiritual experience from the relationship with your car .then maybe so.


Maybe have those college educated kids of yours educate their father, because he seems kind of slow. :facepalm:

And yes, regardless of age, you're the epitome of a fanboy. :thumbup:


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> For those saying that trucks and SUVs get a total free pass, that isn't the case at all. For those under 6500 pounds, for example the Dodge Ram with the 3.0 diesel, it complies with the same EPA Tier 2, Bin 5 standard as the VW Golf/Jetta Sportwagen:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I donk think most people buy a diesel to be green. I think for milage and torque.


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

1985Jetta said:


> 1. I could see this happening, but what about others in this thread who have said they will not be having the recall work done?


Of course, this means not going to the dealer for any reason, including warranty work. I.e. owner self-voids the warranty.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

htr said:


> I donk think most people buy a diesel to be green. I think for milage and torque.


I don't know if anybody's ever bought a diesel to be "green" :laugh:


----------



## StlVDub (Aug 1, 2010)

htr said:


> I donk think most people buy a diesel to be green. I think for milage and torque.


Far from the point... :sly:


----------



## pasateando (Mar 19, 2002)

I'll buy one for half-off sticker, there is no emission testing in Michigan :what:

Although being EPA, those are federal levels...


----------



## dos (Jul 5, 2009)

htr said:


> Oh I can admit they messed up. But I do think it's amusing that they programmed the car to detect emmisssions test and give a false reading while doing so.. And there emmissions next to a US diesel truck are what? Yeah that may have fudged the numbers but our own trucks have been fudging the environment for years. Passenger car regulations are much more gruelling than for trucks, but that's ok right? And not even sure what fanboy is suppose to mean about someone with a daughter in college and son graduated from college.vws are not for everyone. Its Irisk and reward for sure.
> You either have to have the $ to have them properly maintained or learn to work on them yourself. It's an enthusiasts car. Always has been. If you just want a car to jump in and go shopping. Or point a to b. Then it's not for you . If you want to feel the road and a spiritual experience from the relationship with your car .then maybe so.


You are really just reaching out trying to drag everyone down with you when you are drowning. This is about passenger cars, if VW wants to make big V8 dually diesel trucks for Murica they can and the same standards for that class of trucks VW would need to comply.

It's funny reading the last few pages on that TDI forums, blame trucks, airplanes, boats, cows but VW is really the victim of being told what to do for this class of cars. If I payed some kid to take my SAT's I guess that's not cheating. It's just the evil college standard for admission...

Edit;
Keep moving those goalposts!


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

Al_Slade said:


> If you are an owner of a TDI are you going to de-badge it for fear of being stigmatized as a polluter? Of course it isn't your fault but it seems that more and more people are looking for ways to stimulate their mouth frothing. I am not predicting this will happen but I wont be surprised if it does.


I'll do you one better. As a lifelong fan and owner of non-TDI VWs I'm embarrassed to be a VW owner, PERIOD (maybe I always should have been, but am definitely so now).

Seriousy considering NOT following through on my in progress 2016 GTI PP preorder. Or am I overreacting since all mfgs are corrupt/fallable?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

1985Jetta said:


> I don't know if anybody's ever bought a diesel to be "green" :laugh:


You would be wrong, and that is in fact what VW/Audi built their entire marketing campaign on.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

AZGolf said:


> You would be wrong, and that is in fact what VW/Audi built their entire marketing campaign on.


But diesels really aren't all that "green", though.


----------



## ATL_Av8r (Oct 17, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> Yes, heavier trucks have a little easier time with emissions but _all_ diesel vehicles all the way up to 18-wheelers have to pass very strict emissions standards now. In California, even ships have to comply with California smog laws!


Locomotives, as well, nationwide.


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

htr said:


> I find this amusing at most. Just makes me even happier to be a vw fan and longtime owner. Seems the US will do whatever it takes to stopping another automaker of becoming competitive of the big three. First it was Toyota and now the jetta becomes a top seller and all the sudden it's vw. I hope this does turn the half- hearted away from buying vw's. And whoever mentioned earlier about a vw not being able to tell if it's running or not, don't know what there talking about. The proper diag/ obd2 will tell you if your window is working correctly. Vw are very sophisticated and technically advanced. They have quietly invented a majority of things used in today's cars that others have copied and used as marketing points.


Umm... your tinfoil hat is showing


----------



## Sortafast (Oct 6, 2001)

This thread is awesome. opcorn:

VW fanboys be like:


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

ATL_Av8r said:


> Locomotives, as well, nationwide.


YAY!!! Evolution series!!!!!


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

Maximum_Download said:


> I think it's hysterical that you people think this will blow over and things will be a-ok.
> 
> Winterkorn will be shown the door, the diesel portfolio will be shut down indefinitely, and VW will have about 10 years worth of soul searching as a result of this.
> 
> This derails EVERYTHING.


Smart money goes here.


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Maybe have those college educated kids of yours educate their father, because he seems kind of slow. :facepalm:
> 
> And yes, regardless of age, you're the epitome of a fanboy. :thumbup:


Please define fanboy.???If being a longtime vw owner makes me a fanboy, then fine.Should I get a different car make every time I get a different car? Is it wrong to be loyal to something that's been loyal to me?? And If you want to take a automotive topic and turn it into something personal because you don't agree with me, well that's fine too. If it makes you feel better trying to insult people to gain whatever gratification it is your after, that's great. If someone wants to flame me for liking a car or driving a car just cuz they don't, that's all good. If you have another opinion then state it. Instead of just saying. Your a fanboy cuz u like vw's. Or your slow cuz you like to feel the way a car drives. At least make a point other than you think your better or smarter.


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

Waterfan said:


> Umm... your tinfoil hat is showing


Proudly,lol


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

Two senior VW execs to skip Passat event:
http://www.autonews.com/article/20150921/OEM02/150929992/2-senior-vw-executives-to-skip-passat-event

Two senior VW execs, Herbert Diess (chairman of the management board) and Heinz-Jacob Neusser (board member in charge of technical development) will not be attending this evening's Passat reveal. Michael Horn will give a brief update on the situation and will not take questions at the event. 

What a cluster this will be.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

1985Jetta said:


> But diesels really aren't all that "green", though.





















VW was all about it. What they were trying to do was fight the diesels as black soot creating machines stereotype.


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

htr said:


> Please define fanboy.???If being a longtime vw owner makes me a fanboy, then fine.Should I get a different car make every time I get a different car? Is it wrong to be loyal to something that's been loyal to me?? And If you want to take a automotive topic and turn it into something personal because you don't agree with me, well that's fine too. If it makes you feel better trying to insult people to gain whatever gratification it is your after, that's great. If someone wants to flame me for liking a car or driving a car just cuz they don't, that's all good. If you have another opinion then state it. Instead of just saying. Your a fanboy cuz u like vw's. Or your slow cuz you like to feel the way a car drives. At least make a point other than you think your better or smarter.


Fanboy - deliberately ignoring or discounting evidence and logic to lay blame upon anyone/anything except the object of affection. (i.e. you and VW)

No one is saying you have to be "disloyal", you can continue to stand by VW, for whatever reasons, but deliberately twisting facts makes you look foolish.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

MCTB said:


> VW was all about it. What they were trying to do was fight the diesels as black soot creating machines stereotype.


Even without their blatant disregard for emissions laws, I don't think they succeeded.


----------



## Islander72 (Jul 7, 2014)

This is an epic failure on VW on so many levels..A friend who just listed his Golf TDI and _was_ very happy on the resale value of his car. I think his chances of selling his car and getting the price he wants is not very good at this moment. I just browsed all the TDI's for sale in my area and I feel really bad for these people that can no longer unload their cars and maybe stuck with it for a while.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

1985Jetta said:


> But diesels really aren't all that "green", though.


Yes, and no.

They produce lower of some pollutants, and more of others, compared to gas. The newest generation was *supposed* to have solved that, except it's now clear through their own admission that they lied and cheated.

Diesels also have a better utilization of energy per unit of fuel compared to gasoline engines.

I really really wanted to get a TDI years ago and run 100% biodiesel in it, making it extremely 'green', but didn't because (a) no hatchback at the time (Jetta only, no Golf); and (b) my now-ex threw a fit about my plan to put a biodiesel processor in the shed. By the time she was no longer a factor in my life, the Golf TDIs were back but VW said that B100 was not an allowable fuel (voided the warranty, and apparently also killed the HPFP).

Meanwhile, EVs became a thing. :thumbup:


----------



## Al_Slade (May 22, 2015)

2ohgti said:


> Well my neighbor that everyone calls "one upper" had to knock on my door to let me know our TDI suck, and so does VW. He is a Cadillac sales guy and owns a Cruise TDI. He said," I don't get it, our 500hp Cruize TDI w/ out a car passes emissions". My wife was calling me, so I said, gotta go.
> Why must people have to harass you for owning something? I would never go and do that.
> Besides, I like the car because its fun to drive. Don't care if its the best car ever made or that VW did this. If it were a safety issue then I would care.


Post #602 bears fruit. thumbup: for my prediction, not your d**k neighbor.)


----------



## TangoRed (Sep 7, 2005)

Doug Butabi said:


> The residents of Ohio continue to amaze me.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

1985Jetta said:


> Even without their blatant disregard for emissions laws, I don't think they succeeded.


Sales tend to speak otherwise.


----------



## Cabin Pics (Mar 20, 2008)

Islander72 said:


> This is an epic failure on VW on so many levels..A friend who just listed his Golf TDI and _was_ very happy on the resale value of his car. I think his chances of selling his car and getting the price he wants is not very good at this moment. I just browsed all the TDI's for sale in my area and I feel really bad for these people that can no longer unload their cars and maybe stuck with it for a while.


However, if you're in the market to get a great deal on a used TDI... The next couple months may prove to be pretty interesting.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

htr said:


> Please define fanboy.???If being a longtime vw owner makes me a fanboy, then fine.Should I get a different car make every time I get a different car? Is it wrong to be loyal to something that's been loyal to me?? And If you want to take a automotive topic and turn it into something personal because you don't agree with me, well that's fine too. If it makes you feel better trying to insult people to gain whatever gratification it is your after, that's great. If someone wants to flame me for liking a car or driving a car just cuz they don't, that's all good. If you have another opinion then state it. Instead of just saying. Your a fanboy cuz u like vw's. Or your slow cuz you like to feel the way a car drives. At least make a point other than you think your better or smarter.


I posted you're slow because of your rambling, mis-spell-as-much-as-possible posting style is hard to read and when one does decipher it, it's just plain ignorant and somewhat delusional. opcorn:

But please, continue lowering Ohio's overall IQ. As if it were needed. :thumbup:


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

My fearless prediction:

1. Winterkorn will be thanked for his....actually no, he will be thrown right through the window. Axel Foley style.

2. VW folds up it's diesel tent because of this, and enters a 1990s-style morass which will be reflected in its products.

3. The lack of diesel passenger cars will kill market demand, which will take out other vehicles like the Cruze TD.

4. You will see a lot more hybridization as companies will avoid anything with "diesel" in the name.

VW royally, massively s### the bed on this.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

Maximum_Download said:


> I think it's hysterical that you people think this will blow over and things will be a-ok.
> 
> Winterkorn will be shown the door, the diesel portfolio will be shut down indefinitely, and VW will have about 10 years worth of soul searching as a result of this.
> 
> *This derails EVERYTHING*.


I disagree. It derails SOME things, sure, but not their electrification efforts. I predict a range-improved eGolf will be positioned to fill the TDI slots, probably joined by an Jetta. Or maybe the GTE will appear *really* soon. It moves them towards the future and gets them far, far away from the diesel taint.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

OOOO-A3 said:


> Yes, and no.
> 
> They produce lower of some pollutants, and more of others, compared to gas. The newest generation was *supposed* to have solved that, except it's now clear through their own admission that they lied and cheated.
> 
> ...


Even with the emissions benefits, as said, they seem to be on their way out for new cars at least, and for use in urban areas  Maybe it's time to head out to the boonies and have some fun. 

I've thought about running/converting to biodiesel in my Chevy 6.2, but haven't done much research toward it. If I looked at/read that correctly, the biodiesel processors seem to be decently compact...I wonder why your ex had a problem with one. 

Still not all that on board with EV's unless it's a CitiCar/Comuta-Car with a few tweaks or an already converted old one. 



MCTB said:


> Sales tend to speak otherwise.


Yeah, a quarter of all sales is pretty good (not now, though)!


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

OOOO-A3 said:


> far, far away from the diesel taint.


And we all know what's right next to the diesel taint, right?


----------



## BLK9GEN (Sep 27, 2001)

htr said:


> I find this amusing at most. Just makes me even happier to be a vw fan and longtime owner. Seems the *US will do whatever it takes to stopping another automaker of becoming competitive of the big three. First it was Toyota and now the jetta becomes a top seller and all the sudden it's vw. I hope this does turn the half- hearted away from buying vw's*. And whoever mentioned earlier about a vw not being able to tell if it's running or not, don't know what there talking about. The proper diag/ obd2 will tell you if your window is working correctly. *Vw are very sophisticated and technically advanced. They have quietly invented a majority of things used in today's cars that others have copied and used as marketing points.*












:laugh:

VW isn't even close to being a threat to this Big 3 in the US. No RWD pony/sports car, no pickup trucks, not enough CUVs. And if you think the Jetta is a big seller, you should re-check your math. It could probably use some fine-tuning.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

OOOO-A3 said:


> I disagree. It derails SOME things, sure, but not their electrification efforts. I predict a range-improved eGolf will be positioned to fill the TDI slots, probably joined by an Jetta. Or maybe the GTE will appear *really* soon. It moves them towards the future and gets them far, far away from the diesel taint.


X2, if anything this has pushed up the electrification schedule....EVs here they come! Fine by me...


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

Waterfan said:


> Fanboy - deliberately ignoring or discounting evidence and logic to lay blame upon anyone/anything except the object of affection. (i.e. you and VW)
> 
> No one is saying you have to be "disloyal", you can continue to stand by VW, for whatever reasons, but deliberately twisting facts makes you look foolish.


Please tell me what facts I twisted?I already said they messed up. But not everyone bought a diesel to be green. This is really a surprise that a huge corporation would be deceitful in anyway to market and sell something to make a profit.?? People need to not be so Ned Flanders .This is not the worst thing an auto maker has done. Birds are not falling from the sky as I drive by in my tdi at 45mpg. I don't care how green vw is or isn't. Im not defending vw's marketing in anyway. I don't like many of vw's marketing ploys.But I will defend there technological innovation in the automotive industry. And I will express the fact that I enjoy driving the vws that I have owned.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> And we all know what's right next to the diesel taint, right?


Yeah, the soot producer




I predict nothing will happen here in the States. I think that the buying public here will forget it. Honestly. In a year or two, no big deal. Call the diesel something else. Like Ford did with their turbo line. "Hey guys, its EcoBoost! Look at those green leaves!"


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Maximum_Download said:


> My fearless prediction:
> 
> 1. Winterkorn will be thanked for his....actually no, he will be thrown right through the window. Axel Foley style.
> 
> ...


So, you really went out on a limb for this one, eh? :laugh:

I don't see a way back for diesel in the U.S. since VW was by far the #1 player in that market. VW is like Loki in the first Avengers movie. _Maybe_ this will be fixed and _maybe_ it will blow over, but it's all on them.


----------



## The Kilted Yaksman (Oct 31, 2000)

htr said:


> ...But I will defend there technological innovation in the automotive industry. And I will express the fact that I enjoy driving the vws that I have owned.


Please give us a list of all the technological innovation VW has brought to the US auto market.


----------



## Mikewastaken (Dec 13, 2002)

If this gets us a GTE Golf and Tiguan sooner rather than later then so be it!


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> And we all know what's right next to the diesel taint, right?


The gas hole?


----------



## green tea (Feb 17, 2001)

So what does all this mean for current TDI owners and resale value


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> I posted you're slow because of your rambling, mis-spell-as-much-as-possible posting style is hard to read and when one does decipher it, it's just plain ignorant and somewhat delusional. opcorn:
> 
> But please, continue lowering Ohio's overall IQ. As if it were needed. :thumbup:


Wow this guy is a smart fella, gee olly gee.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

The Kilted Yaksman said:


> Please give us a list of all the technological innovation VW has brought to the US auto market.


Does soul count?


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

1985Jetta said:


> If I looked at/read that correctly, the biodiesel processors seem to be decently compact...*I wonder why your ex had a problem with one*.
> 
> Still not all that on board with EV's unless it's a CitiCar/Comuta-Car with a few tweaks or an already converted old one.


If you like to build stuff, and like chemistry, BioD processors are awesome. She was a chemist and would have loved it had it been her idea. I had no say in anything in my/our life unless it happened to coincide with what she had already decided/wanted. I'd like to re-emphasize the "ex" part.

EV's are where it's at.


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

The Kilted Yaksman said:


> Please give us a list of all the technological innovation VW has brought to the US auto market.


Cvt tranmission, variable valve timing, fuel injection, turbo diesel, awd, individual cylinder coil pack, that's just off the top.


----------



## Professor Gascan (Sep 11, 2002)

So, I'm not going to be able to buy a GTD any time soon?


----------



## CostcoPizza (Jan 20, 2008)

I think you're getting a little too excited here.



Maximum_Download said:


> My fearless prediction:
> 
> 1. Winterkorn will be thanked for his....actually no, he will be thrown right through the window. Axel Foley style.
> 
> ...


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

htr said:


> Cvt tranmission, variable valve timing, fuel injection, turbo diesel, awd, individual cylinder coil pack, that's just off the top.


Exactly none of that was invented by Volkswagen.


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

Air and water do mix said:


> So, you really went out on a limb for this one, eh? :laugh:
> 
> I don't see a way back for diesel in the U.S. since VW was by far the #1 player in that market. VW is like Loki in the first Avengers movie. _Maybe_ this will be fixed and _maybe_ it will blow over, but it's all on them.


People still remember the Audi 5000, the Corvair and the Pinto and the highly exaggerated, nay made up horror stories about them. People also remember the fiasco that was the Oldsmobile 350 diesel. Even if VW comes up with a plausible explanation here, I think this pretty much killed the diesel engine in the US for good.


----------



## StlVDub (Aug 1, 2010)

htr said:


> Wow this guy is a smart fella, gee olly gee.


This guy. This guy right here...is just making my day. :laugh:



GoHomePossum said:


> Does soul count?


LOLZ Plus one good sir.



Maximum_Download said:


> My fearless prediction:
> 
> 1. Winterkorn will be thanked for his....actually no, he will be thrown right through the window. Axel Foley style.
> 
> ...


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

htr said:


> Wow this guy is a smart fella, gee olly gee.


I wouldn't go that far, but I'm not getting my arse kicked by posting in my native language either. Next time you go to post, look up and hit the free spell-checker. It won't change the ignorance coming through, but it'll make it easier to read. :thumbdown:


----------



## BLK9GEN (Sep 27, 2001)

GoHomePossum said:


> Exactly none of that was invented by Volkswagen.


But why confuse the poor boy with pesky facts. VW practically invented cars, don't you know?


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

The resale issue is an interesting one, considering it's always the #1 go-to reasoning to buy a TDI from the fans. 'You'll always bet your money back' etc.

I honestly don't know if this will have wide reaching awareness outside the already small US TDI market. To the auto buying public at large, it lacks the TV News friendly unintended acceleration pizzazz necessary to catch non-enthusiast eyeballs.

It's going to chafe a lot of current TDI owners though, and that's probably enough to kill VW Diesel initiative in the US at least. 

If a similar axe falls in Europe, though.... bad, bad things for the company as a whole.


----------



## StlVDub (Aug 1, 2010)

htr said:


> Cvt tranmission, variable valve timing, fuel injection, turbo diesel, awd, individual cylinder coil pack, that's just off the top.





GoHomePossum said:


> Exactly none of that was invented by Volkswagen.


Oh my god, please stop, I nearly spit out my drink at work. :laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## CostcoPizza (Jan 20, 2008)

htr said:


> Cvt tranmission, variable valve timing, fuel injection, *turbo diesel*, awd, individual cylinder coil pack, that's just off the top.


Nope.

I'm going to assume the rest are incorrect as well.


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

GoHomePossum said:


> Exactly none of that was invented by Volkswagen.


Wrong


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

htr said:


> Cvt tranmission, variable valve timing, fuel injection, turbo diesel, awd, individual cylinder coil pack, that's just off the top.


All wrong due to previously pointed out ignorance, but please, continue. This is more fun than showing a dog a card-trick. :laugh:


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

htr said:


> Wrong


Please move further away from me.


----------



## Lackey (Mar 14, 2000)

htr said:


> Wrong


Compelling counter point. (Wish I had returned to this thread earlier.)


----------



## EF9Si (Dec 12, 2003)

That means will they halt the sales of TDI's as we speak???


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Makes me wonder if this was more of a failure by the engine engineering departments. I can picture upper management giving them an unrealistic emissions target and saying meet this or else. So engineering *meets* the target thanks to a little cheat. Upper management trusts what the engineers feed them so this lie goes on for years. When confronted a year back engineering tries to apply a software fix to hide what they did.
> 
> Perhaps not all that different than Hyundai expect this wasn't just some incorrect numbers entered into test formulas by accident.
> 
> In fact I wonder if this is the reason shomie was yet to post on the subject. The various powertrain departments could be under serious review right now to find out where this started and which heads need to roll.


Nope. Ford and Hyundai just screwed up. They plugged in the wrong variable, the stated cause was internally consistent, and at no time were any of affected vehicles actually out of compliance with Clean Air Act requirements. This was more of a GM-style massive corporate coverup of blatantly unlawful wrongdoing, except on a larger scale. GM is a bunch of little warring fiefdoms and claques; VW is ruled from the top down. Everybody knew everything. 

And here's the other thing: with Euro 6 coming online as of six days ago, Europe is now subject to NOx regs similar to those of the US. If they needed this hack to make TDI work in the US, I'd be extremely unsurprised if it was necessary to make it work with Euro 6 - at least for cars without exhaust after-treatment (urea). It is beyond doubt that there will be a German/EU investigation. 

And to address another point from way back: yes, wildfires, freighters burning bunker fuel, and various and sundry other sources do contribute significantly to air pollution. I agree that freighters should not be allowed to burn bunker fuel within 10 miles of shore, but that was a loophole in the regs - not a flagrant violation of them. Wildfires don't really comply with regulations; corporations do. This constitutes not an act of God or an accident or a loophole, but of a protracted, orchestrated, knowing violation of the law. And it wasn't just reported fuel economy and consumer protection at stake, it was emissions levels that would have made that drivetrain completely ineligible for sale.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

Given how this occurred, I don't think TDI owners are going to get the short end of the stick. And i am not just saying that because I own one.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

So here's the deal: VW is head-down in some very deep scheisse. This isn't just "my '86 Tercel didn't pass the smog test." Those 500,000 TDIs are not in compliance with Clean Air Act regs. The discrepancy is significant; they were really harfing out the NOx. That means they are no longer permitted to be sold or operated on US roads - even ones that were already sold. VW is going to be buying those vehicles back, because compliance is not going to be possible without gimping performance or adding urea or both. This will have repercussions, to wit: 

There will be zero VW TDIs sold until such time as the drivetrain can use after treatment. Since they already told us that there's no room in the C-segment MQB cars for the urea tank, I anticipate that will be several years; VW will therefore have no compliant equivalent TDI model to offer the customers who will be losing their cars. And as we all know, diesel owners tend to be weird, committed, and loyal. My guess that this debacle will be viewed by many as a betrayal. My guess is they've lost many TDI customers for good. My coworker who drives one is spitting fire right now. All this is a long-form way of saying that at least a quarter of VW's current sales in the US are going to evaporate, essentially overnight, and will not recover for several years. 

Following that hit, I fully anticipate the resignation of Winterkorn and a number of other higher-ups at VW corporate and VWoA. VW flounders in a leadership shakeup. Winterkorn was really committed to VWoA. We'll see what happens there. 

The big news will be a monster fine, which I expect to be somewhere in the neighborhood of $1-1.5 billion. Criminal proceedings are not out of the question, but I'd doubt it; that kind of thing seems rather business-unfriendly. 

Long term, my bet is that this kills the non-truck US diesel market entirely by 2018, at least outside trucks and SUVs. Mercedes is already on the way out. GM could kill the diesel Cruze tomorrow. BMW has been really plowing investment into PHEVs lately. And VW has too. Given how expensive it's going to be to make TDIs pass emissions decisively with no shenanigans, I'd be surprised if VW even tried to revive them - with two or three years off the market and those customers lost, I think it's most likely that we'll see VW switch to hybrids and PHEVs. And it's their own damn fault, because they were too stupid/greedy.

Do not underestimate how much of a disaster this is.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

EF9Si said:


> That means will they halt the sales of TDI's as we speak???


All TDI sales are currently halted until a solution is devised.


----------



## Lackey (Mar 14, 2000)

So, with VW dealerships' sales down 20-25 percent, does this mean that I can get a good deal on a 2016 Golf R? 

Or does this mean VW going to go tits-up in this country and I should dump my 2013 Golf R before it becomes an albatross around my neck?


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

Then who did ?? Remeber all the autos in the vag group. They may have not invented but were the first to put in production vehicles.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

GoHomePossum said:


> All TDI sales are currently halted until a solution is devised.


The solution is a buyback.


----------



## Mikewastaken (Dec 13, 2002)

I think if you were to pick people off the street and ask them to name something they think sets Volkswagen apart from other makes, you would hear TDI/diesel cars, and then maybe the GTI most often. VW hedged a lot on diesel and will have to do something pretty special to mount any kind of bounceback.


----------



## StlVDub (Aug 1, 2010)

htr said:


> Then who did ?? Remeber all the autos in the vag group. They may have not invented but were the first to put in production vehicles.


Please, tell us all a VW model that uses a CVT. VW invented them after all, so that should be easy.


I'll wait.


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

htr said:


> Cvt tranmission, variable valve timing, fuel injection, turbo diesel, awd, individual cylinder coil pack, that's just off the top.


The first mass produced car with a CVT was the Dutch DAF 600, and the first one in the US was the Subaru Justy.

Alfa Romeo was the first manufacturer to use a variable valve timing system in production cars.

Fuel injection, indirect and direct, has been around since before VW existed,

You can look the rest up yourself.


----------



## brickfrenzy (Dec 5, 2003)

htr said:


> Cvt tranmission, variable valve timing, fuel injection, turbo diesel, awd, individual cylinder coil pack, that's just off the top.


Automotive CVT - first patented by Daimler and Benz in 1886. Nope.

Variable Valve Timing - first patented in Germany in 1959 by Porsche. Half credit.

Fuel injection - invented by Bosch and Cummins in the 1920s. Nope.

Turbo diesel - invented by Alfred Büchi of the Gebruder Sulzer Engine Company in 1905. Nope.

Passenger car all wheel drive - The Jensen FF was the first commercially available one, predating the Audi Quattro by 5 years. Nope.

Individual Cylinder coil pack - first used on the Saab 92 in 1949. Nope.


----------



## Sortafast (Oct 6, 2001)

StlVDub said:


> Please, tell us all a VW model that uses a CVT. VW invented them after all, so that should be easy.


I was trying to think of one myself, but I'll admit I'm not the most familiar with VW's entire catalog.

This is so entertaining. :laugh: opcorn:


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

StlVDub said:


> Please, tell us all a VW model that uses a CVT. VW invented them after all, so that should be easy.
> 
> 
> I'll wait.


Audi


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

Turbio! said:


> The solution is a buyback.


+1


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

htr said:


> Audi


The VW Audi? Not familiar with that model.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Turbio! said:


> Do not underestimate how much of a disaster this is.


Exactly. About the only thing that could save Diesel is a full-on press by all of the Diesel drivetrain manufacturers to the regulatory bodies asking for a uniform global standard that they feel they can meet. And then a co-developed rampdown program with half a chance of success. 

This is a catastrophe for Diesel, not (just) VW.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Turbio! said:


> Since they already told us that there's no room in the C-segment MQB cars for the urea tank, I anticipate that will be several years;


All MQB TDIs cars sold in the US already have a urea tank - as do the Jetta and Passat.



Turbio! said:


> hat means they are no longer permitted to be sold *or operated on US roads* - even ones that were already sold.


Say what?? Do you mean TDI owners can't drive their cars now??


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

VT1.8T said:


> Given how this occurred, I don't think TDI owners are going to get the short end of the stick. And i am not just saying that because I own one.





Turbio! said:


> So here's the deal: VW is head-down in some very deep scheisse. This isn't just "my '86 Tercel didn't pass the smog test." Those 500,000 TDIs are not in compliance with Clean Air Act regs. The discrepancy is significant; they were really harfing out the NOx. That means they are no longer permitted to be sold or operated on US roads - even ones that were already sold. VW is going to be buying those vehicles back, because compliance is not going to be possible without gimping performance or adding urea or both.


Yup, I see a massive US buy-back program similar to what Toyota did with the rusty framed Tacomas. Something along the lines of 1.5x blue book or even better if you get another VW product. 

The Tacoma was buy back at 150% the KBB "excellent condition" price, regardless of condition. I know a lot of people who made out really well in that deal.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

htr said:


> Cvt tranmission, variable valve timing, fuel injection, turbo diesel, awd, individual cylinder coil pack, that's just off the top.


CVT: "In 1989 the (Subaru) Justy became the first production car in the U.S. to offer CVT technology."

VVT: "Alfa Romeo was the first manufacturer to use a variable valve timing system in production cars (US Patent 4,231,330)."

Fuel Injection: "Chevrolet introduced a mechanical fuel injection option, made by General Motors' Rochester Products division, for its 283 V8 engine in 1956 (1957 U.S. model year)."

Turbo Diesel: "The first turbodiesel production car was the Mercedes-Benz 300SD (series W116, engine OM617.950), introduced in May 1978.[14] It used a Garrett AiResearch turbocharger, and was produced only for the United States. In Europe, the first turbodiesel was the Peugeot 604 in early 1979 (model year 1978)."

AWD: "The AMC Eagle was the first production car to use the complete "Ferguson Formula" (FF) full-time all-wheel-drive system from Britain's Ferguson Research." AMC 1979 vs Audi Quattro 1980

Direct Ignition: "Saab Direct Ignition ... was first shown in 1985 and put into series production in the Saab 9000 in 1988."


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

Turbio! said:


> So here's the deal: VW is head-down in some very deep scheisse. This isn't just "my '86 Tercel didn't pass the smog test." Those 500,000 TDIs are not in compliance with Clean Air Act regs. The discrepancy is significant; they were really harfing out the NOx. T*hat means they are no longer permitted to be sold or operated on US roads - even ones that were already sold.* VW is going to be buying those vehicles back, because compliance is not going to be possible without gimping performance or adding urea or both. This will have repercussions, to wit:
> 
> Do not underestimate how much of a disaster this is.


Is that the case? Do you mean to say that any locality that does emission testing will now have a big red "X" when a VW/Audi product shows up, denying registration/etc?




atomicalex said:


> Exactly. About the only thing that could save Diesel is a full-on press by all of the Diesel drivetrain manufacturers to the regulatory bodies asking for a uniform global standard that they feel they can meet. And then a co-developed rampdown program with half a chance of success.
> 
> This is a catastrophe for Diesel, not (just) VW.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

Turbio! said:


> The solution is a buyback.


That would work for me. I bought a car VW could not sell me but for the deception. Undoing that transaction seems to be the right answer.


----------



## StlVDub (Aug 1, 2010)

htr said:


> Audi


Please stop.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

htr said:


> Then who did ?? Remeber all the autos in the vag group. They may have not invented but were the first to put in production vehicles.


Buddy, either stop posting or learn how to use www.google.com.

Of your list:

Cvt tranmission: In the modern era, the first was the Subaru Justy, followed by the Nissan March.

Variable valve timing: Many patents and technology demonstrators, but the 1980 Alfa Romeo Spider 2000 had a mechanical VVT system, and appears to be the first mass production car with VVT.

Fuel injection: If you mean direct injection, that honor belongs to the 1955 Mercedes-Benz 300SL. VW is extra disqualified because all the early VW fuel injection cars used a Bosch system. They didn't even have their own.

Turbo diesel: "the first production turbo diesel cars were, in 1978, the 3.0 5-cylinder 115 hp (86 kW) Mercedes 300 SD, available only in North America, and the Peugeot 604."

Awd: Tons, although generally accepted to be the 1972 Subaru Leone, though some give credit to the 1973 AMC Quadra Trac system, as it was full-time, whereas the Subaru system was part-time AWD.

Individual cylinder coil pack: I'm not even going to Google this. VW invented nothing; they use subcontractors and parts suppliers.

Having said all that, I am going to save myself any further trouble and add yet another user to my forum ignore list.


----------



## WinterisComing (Oct 25, 2012)

htr said:


> I find this amusing at most. Just makes me even happier to be a vw fan and longtime owner. *Seems the US will do whatever it takes to stopping another automaker of becoming competitive of the big three*. First it was Toyota and *now the jetta becomes a top seller* and all the sudden it's vw. I hope this does turn the half- hearted away from buying vw's. And whoever mentioned earlier about a vw not being able to tell if it's running or not, don't know what there talking about. The proper diag/ obd2 will tell you if your window is working correctly. Vw are very sophisticated and technically advanced. They have quietly invented a majority of things used in today's cars that others have copied and used as marketing points.












What are you talking about? VW doesn't compete with the Big 3 in two of their biggest segments, trucks and large SUVs

The Jetta a top seller? Compared to what? A Mitsubishi Mirage? The Focus and Cruze sell double what the Jetta does


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

EF9Si said:


> That means will they halt the sales of TDI's as we speak???


Already suspended in the US. Affected 2016 TDI's were never certified, won't be certified soon and therefore couldn't/can't be sold. Remaining 2015 TDI's on lots are not to be sold. There was press on this somewhere


----------



## Tuono5740 (Nov 23, 2011)

So, my tdi is currently stage 2 with a DPF and EGR cooler delete. Where I have my car registered is a county that does not require emissions. Am I soon to face a required emissions inspection in order to register my car? If memory serves correctly, Washington state does not require inspections on any diesel newer than 2009. So how does this bode for all TDI owners around here? Are we all to face required inspections in order to register our cars?

P.S. Sorry if the language seems a little... sub-par. Coffee machine crapped the bed on us this morning so it's a Monday with no coffee:banghead:


----------



## jbales356 (Jun 25, 2015)

Bought my 2012 Jetta TDI a few months ago, and got called in for a "service". I have the VW Certified warranty, and wanted to keep it, so I complied. Here's my fuelly graph showing before/after service. I drive mostly city, so It was pretty steady at 34 actual / 36 on the car. Now I have been averaging 28 mpg actual.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Tornado2dr said:


> Is that the case? Do you mean to say that any locality that does emission testing will now have a big red "X" when a VW/Audi product shows up, denying registration/etc?


Basically. The buyback will be mandatory.


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

Turbio! said:


> Nope. Ford and Hyundai just screwed up. They plugged in the wrong variable, the stated cause was internally consistent, and at no time were any of affected vehicles actually out of compliance with Clean Air Act requirements. This was more of a GM-style massive corporate coverup of blatantly unlawful wrongdoing, except on a larger scale. GM is a bunch of little warring fiefdoms and claques; VW is ruled from the top down. Everybody knew everything.
> 
> And here's the other thing: with Euro 6 coming online as of six days ago, Europe is now subject to NOx regs similar to those of the US. If they needed this hack to make TDI work in the US, I'd be extremely unsurprised if it was necessary to make it work with Euro 6 - at least for cars without exhaust after-treatment (urea). It is beyond doubt that there will be a German/EU investigation.
> 
> And to address another point from way back: yes, wildfires, freighters burning bunker fuel, and various and sundry other sources do contribute significantly to air pollution. I agree that freighters should not be allowed to burn bunker fuel within 10 miles of shore, but that was a loophole in the regs - not a flagrant violation of them. Wildfires don't really comply with regulations; corporations do. This constitutes not an act of God or an accident or a loophole, but of a protracted, orchestrated, knowing violation of the law. And it wasn't just reported fuel economy and consumer protection at stake, it was emissions levels that would have made that drivetrain completely ineligible for sale.


Well said. Agree 100%.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Tornado2dr said:


> Is that the case? Do you mean to say that any locality that does emission testing will now have a big red "X" when a VW/Audi product shows up, denying registration/etc?


Yes, its possible.

And in California, it is certain.

If you own a TDI in CA and you do not take advantage of whatever repair VW offers, CARB will make sure your TDI fails smog.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

Turbio! said:


> VW is going to be buying those vehicles back, because compliance is not going to be possible without gimping performance or adding urea or both.


this seems less likely to me than the owners of the pre-scr cars getting a mandated update to some sort of horrid "here you go, its legal now" cal+software update that passes emissions but nukes the FE and performance.

maybe they finally fix their egr blending issues :laugh:

at any rate, definitely will be interesting to see how this plays out! :beer:


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Aside from the htr moron, this thread has been extremely civil. Let's try to keep it that way - I need to decide whether I made a great decision by selling before resale values go in the ****ter, or if I made a massive mistake by missing out on a potential buyback :laugh: 

Interesting theories by some people. I have a feeling some of you wont be too far off after the dust settles.


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

Turbio! said:


> Basically. The buyback will be mandatory.


Reading more...this makes sense.

Not a very good day.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

jbales356 said:


> Bought my 2012 Jetta TDI a few months ago, and got called in for a "service". I have the VW Certified warranty, and wanted to keep it, so I complied. Here's my fuelly graph showing before/after service. I drive mostly city, so It was pretty steady at 34 actual / 36 on the car. Now I have been averaging 28 mpg actual.


The evidence before the court is incontrovertible. 
There's no need for the jury to retire.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Tuono5740 said:


> So, my tdi is currently stage 2 with a DPF and EGR cooler delete. Where I have my car registered is a county that does not require emissions.


By the letter of the law, you've already violated the Clean Air Act, which applies nationwide:

http://www2.epa.gov/enforcement/air-enforcement



EPA.gov said:


> Defeat devices. It is a violation of the CAA to manufacture, sell, or install a part for a motor vehicle that bypasses, defeats, or renders inoperative any emission control device. For example, computer software that alters diesel fuel injection timing is a defeat device. Defeat devices, which are often sold to enhance engine performance, work by disabling a vehicle's emission controls, causing air pollution. As a result of EPA enforcement, some of the largest manufacturers of defeat devices have agreed to pay penalties and stop the sale of defeat devices.


The fact that the EPA goes to the trouble to specifically call out diesel modifying means they already know who the worst offenders are and want you to know you're in violation of federal law. It remains to be seen if federal emissions testing will ever happen. Currently it's left up to the states to deal with, but by the letter of the law, you've already violated the CAA, which is federal law.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Hajduk said:


> All MQB TDIs cars sold in the US already have a urea tank - as do the Jetta and Passat.
> 
> 
> 
> Say what?? Do you mean TDI owners can't drive their cars now??


I stand corrected, 2015s do. 

And enjoy driving it now. You're not going to be able to register it.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> this seems less likely to me than the owners of the pre-scr cars getting a mandated update to some sort of horrid "here you go, its legal now" cal+software update that passes emissions but nukes the FE and performance.
> 
> maybe they finally fix their egr blending issues :laugh:
> 
> at any rate, definitely will be interesting to see how this plays out! :beer:


And then, the inevitable class action suit happens.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Turbio! said:


> I stand corrected, 2015s do.
> 
> And enjoy driving it now. You're not going to be able to register it.


I'm enjoying my GTI thanks. And I'm pretty I'll be able to register it.


----------



## Tuono5740 (Nov 23, 2011)

AZGolf said:


> By the letter of the law, you've already violated the Clean Air Act, which applies nationwide:
> 
> http://www2.epa.gov/enforcement/air-enforcement
> 
> ...


Easily could go back to stock. 2 hours on jack stands, reflash and I'm set.

Edit: 10/10 would do if buyback program ever came to reality


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Hajduk said:


> I'm enjoying my GTI thanks. And I'm pretty I'll be able to register it.


Oh, thought you were in a TDI.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

I'm having trouble thinking there will be a _mandatory_ buy back program. Jamie has stated these cars *can* pass emissions tests, but 'something else' is sacrificed (MPGs/durability?) when run in the emissions-test-mode fulltime. So once the cars are flashed to keep the programming in the emissions-test-mode they'll be in the clear by EPA standards. Won't the real problem be the lawsuits from owners who now no longer get the claimed MPG (if that is what's affected)? I'm thinking a voluntary or case-by-case buy back is more in line with a legitimate solution.


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

You guys are all missing the point. It's not THAT bad.

All VW needs to do is hire a few Social Media Influencers and this will all go away.


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

Turbio! said:


> I stand corrected, 2015s do.
> 
> And enjoy driving it now.* You're not going to be able to register it*.


Yeah, this is how I am reading it. The car's were sold on the understanding that they passed all current (at time of mfr) requirements. They didn't.

Even in locales where emissions testing is not required, you won't be getting your yearly DMV "pay for new stickers" mailing. You'll get a "hope you sold this car back to the mfr., because unless you have had a mechanical castration done, the EPA won't let us renew your permission to drive on the roads" letter.

Any of you VW salespeople/servicepeople already jumped ship to something with a firmer grasp on the market? (serious question, i'd be scared)


----------



## Uber Wagon (Dec 9, 2003)

Turbio! said:


> The big news will be a monster fine, which I expect to be somewhere in the neighborhood of $1-1.5 billion. Criminal proceedings are not out of the question, but I'd doubt it; that kind of thing seems rather business-unfriendly.
> 
> Long term, my bet is that this kills the non-truck US diesel market entirely by 2018, at least outside trucks and SUVs. Mercedes is already on the way out. GM could kill the diesel Cruze tomorrow. BMW has been really plowing investment into PHEVs lately. And VW has too. Given how expensive it's going to be to make TDIs pass emissions decisively with no shenanigans, I'd be surprised if VW even tried to revive them - with two or three years off the market and those customers lost, I think it's most likely that we'll see VW switch to hybrids and PHEVs. And it's their own damn fault, because they were too stupid/greedy.
> 
> Do not underestimate how much of a disaster this is.


This fiasco makes Hyundai's MPG mishap fine look like yesterday's news. Diesel cars are going to be in steep decline in US. Mercedes already announced that they are replacing all their diesels with hybrids and EVs, and BMW will soon follow suit. 

I really think this shows that ICE engines have seen its last days. At least in the passenger car segment, we will see a dramatic rise of EVs across all German manufacturers. 

Even though I own a EV, I lament the passing of diesel era.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> I'm having trouble thinking there will be a _mandatory_ buy back program. Jamie has stated these cars *can* pass emissions tests, but 'something else' is sacrificed (MPGs/durability?) when run in the emissions-test-mode fulltime. So once the cars are flashed to keep the programming in the emissions-test-mode they'll be in the clear by EPA standards. Won't the real problem be the lawsuits from owners who now no longer get the claimed MPG (if that is what's affected)? I'm thinking a voluntary or case-by-case buy back is more in line with a legitimate solution.


I concur. If the cars can pass emissions on a dyno, they have the ability to do so all the time. VW just needs to offer the right tech solution.


----------



## bzcat (Nov 26, 2001)

Turbio! said:


> Nope. Ford and Hyundai just screwed up. They plugged in the wrong variable, the stated cause was internally consistent, and at no time were any of affected vehicles actually out of compliance with Clean Air Act requirements. This was more of a GM-style massive corporate coverup of blatantly unlawful wrongdoing, except on a larger scale. GM is a bunch of little warring fiefdoms and claques; VW is ruled from the top down. Everybody knew everything.
> 
> *And here's the other thing: with Euro 6 coming online as of six days ago, Europe is now subject to NOx regs similar to those of the US. If they needed this hack to make TDI work in the US, I'd be extremely unsurprised if it was necessary to make it work with Euro 6 - at least for cars without exhaust after-treatment (urea). It is beyond doubt that there will be a German/EU investigation. *
> 
> And to address another point from way back: yes, wildfires, freighters burning bunker fuel, and various and sundry other sources do contribute significantly to air pollution. I agree that freighters should not be allowed to burn bunker fuel within 10 miles of shore, but that was a loophole in the regs - not a flagrant violation of them. Wildfires don't really comply with regulations; corporations do. This constitutes not an act of God or an accident or a loophole, but of a protracted, orchestrated, knowing violation of the law. And it wasn't just reported fuel economy and consumer protection at stake, it was emissions levels that would have made that drivetrain completely ineligible for sale.


I started a new thread to discuss this specifically... So we know US-spec TDI emits more NOx than EU-spec TDI on paper. Does that mean EU-spec TDI emits A LOT MORE NOx than EU 6 emission standards? i.e. deductive reasoning says VW also cheated in Europe.


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...is-probably-worldwide&p=88336483#post88336483


----------



## Professor Gascan (Sep 11, 2002)

Turbio! said:


> There will be zero VW TDIs sold until such time as the drivetrain can use after treatment. Since they already told us that there's no room in the C-segment MQB cars for the urea tank, I anticipate that will be several years; VW will therefore have no compliant equivalent TDI model to offer the customers who will be losing their cars.


I believe that it's C-segment MQB with AWD that is not possible. The Jetta, Golf, and Passat all currently have AdBlue tanks. That said, the bulk of the cars that are in non-compliance are of the NOx particulate trap variety, which I personally believe don't have a hope in hell of compliance in the wake of this. 




Turbio! said:


> The big news will be a monster fine, which I expect to be somewhere in the neighborhood of $1-1.5 billion. Criminal proceedings are not out of the question, but I'd doubt it; that kind of thing seems rather business-unfriendly.


The size of the fine will be large, but I expect it to roll in just under GM's fine. Don't want the public believing that killing 124 people with corporate ignorance isn't as bad as wilfully breaking emissions laws.


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> I'm having trouble thinking there will be a _mandatory_ buy back program. Jamie has stated these cars *can* pass emissions tests, but 'something else' is sacrificed (MPGs/durability?) when run in the emissions-test-mode fulltime. So once the cars are flashed to keep the programming in the emissions-test-mode they'll be in the clear by EPA standards. *Won't the real problem be the lawsuits from owners who now no longer get the claimed MPG* (if that is what's affected)? I'm thinking a voluntary or case-by-case buy back is more in line with a legitimate solution.


Yes. Which would likely take more resources to litigate and settle the cases than simply saying "if you own xxx to xxxxx jetta, golf, passats, you can sell your car back to VWoA for xx dollars right now". Of course that price will have to be above a projected market value, but it would still be cheaper than mass litigation or casebycase.


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

Turbio! said:


> And then, the inevitable class action suit happens.


Some of which have already started...

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20150920005073/en/Keller-Rohrback-L.L.P.-Files-Class-Action-Lawsuit

http://www.classactionsnews.com/settlements/audi-and-volkswagen-excessive-oil-consumption-class-action-settlement


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

Tuono5740 said:


> ... Edit: 10/10 would do if buyback program ever came to reality ...


Yeah. Wonder if I shouldn't have traded it in May. My BIL did very well with the Toyota pick-up buyback.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

I'm running some emission calculations now and I just can't even. So 2004 saw the roll-out of the current Tier 2 vehicle exhaust emissions standards with Bins 1-10. VW claimed on their certification that the diesels met the standards in Bin 5 (for non-California states) which means a limit of 0.05 grams NOx/mile early in the cars' life and 0.07 g/mi at the "full useful life". If as was suggested that it exceeded this limit by 40 times, that puts NOx emissions at 2 grams per mile. Want to know how bad that is? All *1981* model year vehicles sold in the USA were required to emit a maximum of 1 gram NOx/mile. Hole Eey Crap. :what:

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/tiers0-1-ldstds.htm


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

lwize said:


> the evidence before the court is incontrovertible.
> There's no need for the jury to retire.


tear down the wall!!!!


----------



## Uber Wagon (Dec 9, 2003)

Professor Gascan said:


> The size of the fine will be large, but I expect it to roll in just under GM's fine. Don't want the public believing that killing 124 people with corporate ignorance isn't as bad as wilfully breaking emissions laws.


I don't think it's the fine at hand that will change the course of VW's history here. Several billion dollars is really a chump change at VAG. 
It's the tarnished VW brand image and decline of diesel passenger cars in US that concerns me the most.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Tornado2dr said:


> Yes. Which would likely take more resources to litigate and settle the cases than simply saying "if you own xxx to xxxxx jetta, golf, passats, you can sell your car back to VWoA for xx dollars right now". Of course that price will have to be above a projected market value, but it would still be cheaper than mass litigation or casebycase.


Bingo.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> I'm having trouble thinking there will be a _mandatory_ buy back program. Jamie has stated these cars *can* pass emissions tests, but 'something else' is sacrificed (MPGs/durability?) when run in the emissions-test-mode fulltime. So once the cars are flashed to keep the programming in the emissions-test-mode they'll be in the clear by EPA standards. Won't the real problem be the lawsuits from owners who now no longer get the claimed MPG (if that is what's affected)? I'm thinking a voluntary or case-by-case buy back is more in line with a legitimate solution.


The reflash in December did not help the emissions issue, just resulted in the affected cars' fuel economy dropping well below EPA estimates. The emissions are still too high; they were just buying time. My guess is that a reflash isn't enough, and that additional emissions equipment is required or the cars are basically undriveable in compliance mode.

And maybe mandatory was the wrong word, but either there's a buyback now, or one after the class action suit. Either way, owners cannot register those vehicles, they can't be resold, and they can't be run on US roads.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

Just received the monthly e-newsletter from my local VW dealer. Probably an automatic mailing. Should have put a stop on it considering the mentions of CleanDiesel. Should have at least had an asterisk after it with " * Until we get caught" at the bottom of the page.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

speaking of dealer mailings... im curious if/when brendan can provide us any info on the dealer side of things, since he works for a vw store also.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> speaking of dealer mailings... im curious if/when brendan can provide us any info on the dealer side of things, since he works for a vw store also.


Brendan can't talk right now, he's busy cleaning out his desk :laugh:


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

Professor Gascan said:


> I believe that it's C-segment MQB with AWD that is not possible. The Jetta, Golf, and Passat all currently have AdBlue tanks. That said, the bulk of the cars that are in non-compliance are of the NOx particulate trap variety, which I personally believe don't have a hope in hell of compliance in the wake of this.


If the latter cars' ECUs are reflashed with software that runs in "low emissions mode" all the time, then why wouldn't they be able to be made compliant?

Of course, drivers might not be too happy if the fuel economy and/or performance is worse.


----------



## dcomiskey (Mar 13, 2002)

OOOO-A3 said:


> I disagree. It derails SOME things, sure, but not their electrification efforts. I predict a range-improved eGolf will be positioned to fill the TDI slots, probably joined by an Jetta. Or maybe the GTE will appear *really* soon. It moves them towards the future and gets them far, far away from the diesel taint.


You may be right. However, you are ignoring the damage done to VW's *credibility*. Hell, they can come out with something as neat as a Tesla, but the company will still be viewed as a group of liars and untrustworthy. GTE or not, the damage to the company's reputation is going to be a hell of a lot bigger than simply getting rid of the TDIs and switching to a different platform. Who's going to trust them any more? I sure as hell won't.


----------



## KawahBunga (Oct 14, 2010)

TDI's are stop sale. Weird, because we've been receiving a lot of 2016 gas cars and all the TDI 2016's have been at port forEVER. Wonder if EPA knew about this for a while.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

GoHomePossum said:


> Brendan can't talk right now, he's busy cleaning out his desk :laugh:


I thought the same thing. He's polishing his resume. 

I expect employees may have been told to refrain from commenting on social media on this topic.


----------



## A&F (Feb 13, 2013)

KawahBunga said:


> TDI's are stop sale. Weird, because we've been receiving a lot of 2016 gas cars and all the TDI 2016's have been at port forEVER. Wonder if EPA knew about this for a while.


They have know for over a year and had given VW that time to fix the issue. VW has not been able to do it.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Professor Gascan said:


> I believe that it's C-segment MQB with AWD that is not possible. The Jetta, Golf, and Passat all currently have AdBlue tanks. That said, the bulk of the cars that are in non-compliance are of the NOx particulate trap variety, which I personally believe don't have a hope in hell of compliance in the wake of this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



a) It's even worse that Golf TDI already has urea. That means it's noncompliant even with urea. 

b)This was repeated, flagrant covering-up of a huge exceedance of allowable emissions. I'd expect VW to get thrown against the wall for this one. EPA is not NHTSA.


----------



## White Jetta (Mar 17, 2002)

Sorta clean diesel...


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Volkswagen HQ, this morning:






:laugh:


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

A&F said:


> They have know for over a year and had given VW that time to fix the issue. VW has not been able to do it.


VW knows how to fix it, they probably just said f-it, this is going to be bad no matter what at this point, may as well sell off as many TDi while we can.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

Suggest VW executives read "When Lightning Strikes" by Wayne Pines. I know Wayne. Could be sub-titled "When it hits the fan." 

http://thebestbookinpdf.net/?p=798588


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

dcomiskey said:


> You may be right. However, you are ignoring the damage done to VW's *credibility*. Hell, they can come out with something as neat as a Tesla, but the company will still be viewed as a group of liars and untrustworthy. GTE or not, the damage to the company's reputation is going to be a hell of a lot bigger than simply getting rid of the TDIs and switching to a different platform. Who's going to trust them any more? I sure as hell won't.


Agreed, but if they cut out TDI/CleanDiesel like a cancerous tumor, and have some public firings, they can do the 'isolated incident' / 'rogue employee' hand-waving and advertise heavily that the bad old tech has been done away with. You can't expect they're going to fold up and go away, they have to have a strategy going forward and I think their hybrid and EV programs are going to be the main focus of it.


----------



## Howboutcha C'mon (Oct 11, 2009)

This is Lance Armstrong blood doping.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

Howboutcha C'mon said:


> This is Lance Armstrong blood doping.


No it isn't. When Lance doped so did like 95% of the other riders. It was so pervasive that TdF didn't bother appointing someone else the winner, they were all dopes.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

GoHomePossum said:


> Volkswagen HQ, this morning:
> 
> :laugh:


Quite accurate.


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

I'm willing to wait to see how the investigations go down. I don't want to speculate. The Internet's hive mind speculative manner is dangerous. The stories are already painting a negative picture, and all that has happened is an accusation and an apology from the accused. I, for one, am hoping this is not as bad as it is. But I'm not going to assume that it isn't, just hope.

What really sucks is that in the hands of a few, the majority suffer. I hope those responsible internally in the company are held accountable, and that the company can recover following.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


----------



## VW_Enthu1 (Oct 23, 2004)

Turbio! said:


> So here's the deal: VW is head-down in some very deep scheisse. This isn't just "my '86 Tercel didn't pass the smog test." Those 500,000 TDIs are not in compliance with Clean Air Act regs. The discrepancy is significant; they were really harfing out the NOx. That means they are no longer permitted to be sold or operated on US roads - even ones that were already sold. VW is going to be buying those vehicles back, because compliance is not going to be possible without gimping performance or adding urea or both. This will have repercussions, to wit:
> 
> There will be zero VW TDIs sold until such time as the drivetrain can use after treatment. Since they already told us that there's no room in the C-segment MQB cars for the urea tank, I anticipate that will be several years; VW will therefore have no compliant equivalent TDI model to offer the customers who will be losing their cars. And as we all know, diesel owners tend to be weird, committed, and loyal. My guess that this debacle will be viewed by many as a betrayal. My guess is they've lost many TDI customers for good. My coworker who drives one is spitting fire right now. All this is a long-form way of saying that at least a quarter of VW's current sales in the US are going to evaporate, essentially overnight, and will not recover for several years.
> 
> ...


All of this. I agree and could not have worded it better. This could and probably will be carnage.


----------



## VarianceVQ (Jun 26, 2005)

vbora01 said:


> The stories are already painting a negative picture, and all that has happened is *an accusation and an apology from the accused*. I, for one, am hoping this is not as bad as it is. But I'm not going to assume that it isn't, just hope.


You left out "admission", which VW did. They are guilty and know it. I'm not sure how or why some of you keep glossing over that.


----------



## Howboutcha C'mon (Oct 11, 2009)

jnm2.0t said:


> No it isn't. When Lance doped so did like 95% of the other riders. It was so pervasive that TdF didn't bother appointing someone else the winner, they were all dopes.



For VW fanboys, this news is like a high school student athlete seeing Michael Phelps take bong rips.


----------



## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

VarianceVQ said:


> You left out "admission", which VW did. They are guilty and know it. I'm not sure how or why some of you keep glossing over that.


Sorry if this has been answered, but does this not affect Audi TDIs as well?


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

FastGTi said:


> Sorry if this has been answered, but does this not affect Audi TDIs as well?


Yes it does. The Audi diesels are stop sale as well


----------



## Charlie84 (Aug 13, 2008)

Can anyone clarify for me whether the vehicles equipped with Urea injection (just the Passat, I think?) are meeting the EPA-mandated emissions targets? Or did VW cheat with these cars as well?


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Charlie84 said:


> Can anyone clarify for me whether the vehicles equipped with Urea injection (just the Passat, I think?) are meeting the EPA-mandated emissions targets? Or did VW cheat with these cars as well?


We do not yet know.


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

vbora01 said:


> I'm willing to wait to see how the investigations go down. I don't want to speculate. The Internet's hive mind speculative manner is dangerous. The stories are already painting a negative picture, and all that has happened is an accusation and an apology from the accused. I, for one, am hoping this is not as bad as it is. But I'm not going to assume that it isn't, just hope.
> 
> What really sucks is that in the hands of a few, the majority suffer. I hope those responsible internally in the company are held accountable, and that the company can recover following.
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


No offense, there's very little to speculate on at this point, unfortunately.

VAG was caught by a third party, they admitted deliberate wrong doing, and have already publicly apologized. "All that's left" is the negotiation of the EPA fines/DOJ consent decree, settlement of class actions and trying to pick up the pieces of their massively tarnished image.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

Howboutcha C'mon said:


> For VW fanboys, this news is like a high school student athlete seeing Michael Phelps take bong rips.


Errrr so I could be completely reading it wrong but the athlete would be thinking its completely fine to rip the bong and be the greatest Olympian ever so its completely fine to skirt emissions rules :sly:


----------



## KawahBunga (Oct 14, 2010)

Charlie84 said:


> Can anyone clarify for me whether the vehicles equipped with Urea injection (just the Passat, I think?) are meeting the EPA-mandated emissions targets? Or did VW cheat with these cars as well?


Every 2015 and up VW Diesel uses AdBlue (Urea injection) and is also affected. 

My first thought was that the use of the DPF and the AdBlue injection was reduced when the vehicle is in "emissions diagnostics mode." And when it's in that mode, it'll use the DPF and the fluid quite heavily which results in extra wear and tear on an already expensive exhaust part.

edit: 666 post, someone save me.


----------



## alex_bgnet (Jan 7, 2004)

Crap, I think I'll wait it out for a little bit until I take my rabbit to the dealership.


----------



## Uber Wagon (Dec 9, 2003)

noatonement said:


> Errrr so I could be completely reading it wrong but the athlete would be thinking its completely fine to rip the bong and be the greatest Olympian ever so its completely fine to skirt emissions rules :sly:


This ain't no Mili Vanili scandal. It's more epic than that:


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Also, consider this: VWoA and VW corporate have no particularly noteworthy lobbying or political power here in the US. They're not all tangled up with unions or politically powerful states. Kentucky is not a power-broker state. That means that if EPA and the DOJ decide to start throwing down indictments or multibillion dollar fines, the sweetheart deal that GM got is no guide to what could happen. 

I've pinged various contacts and friends at EPA and other regulatory agencies today. Nobody's getting too specific, but it's being strongly implied that EPA has been on this for a while, that it's not necessarily just VW, and it's not just the US. 

All bets are off at this point. And we haven't even heard anything from European regulators, who I guarantee cleared their calendars this morning.


----------



## Howboutcha C'mon (Oct 11, 2009)

Not meant to be taken seriously 

I just find it interesting how people can rationalize things to themselves due to adoration. I've stumbled across quite a bit of 'oh this can't be' reactions from people online... HTR or whatever was the best though. I must be stuck on the discussion from a few pages ago :laugh:


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

Uber Wagon said:


> This ain't no Mili Vanili scandal. It's more epic than that:



The only way it turns into the Lance story is if everyone else making diesels was cheating too but only VW gets caught and persecuted :laugh:

Then they can make a movie about how VW was lying the whole time and ruined friendships and VW can tweet a picture of a bunch of TDIs in their living room with any awards they won from the TDIs :laugh:



I think we scrutinize this story so much and believe the fall out will be so extreme because we are on a car enthusiast site. I really want to gauge the general public's opinion on this and VW 6 months from now. I just feel like it will be like every other corporate scandal/story, the public will eventually forget about it and no one will even mention it outside of the enthusiast community.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Charlie84 said:


> Can anyone clarify for me whether the vehicles equipped with Urea injection (just the Passat, I think?) are meeting the EPA-mandated emissions targets? Or did VW cheat with these cars as well?


From way back on page 13:










Passat is indeed on the list.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

I need to scrounge the VW parts bin to change the "TDI" emblem on the Jetta to "TDLie"  

I didn't want to lease mine but I'm glad I did. It'll probably have negative residual by the time the lease is up.

Sigh, time to look for a new manufacturer, too, for my next car purchase.



Professor Gascan said:


> The size of the fine will be large, but I expect it to roll in just under GM's fine. Don't want the public believing that killing 124 people with corporate ignorance isn't as bad as wilfully breaking emissions laws.


Oh please. The White House loves GM and has to defend its bailout thereof. That's why GM got a sort-of-pass with ignition switches, while Toyota got thrown under the bus for faulty floor mats and a lack of throttle-brake-override. That's why the US agencies involved are going to polish every pitchfork and refuel every torch as they go to crucify VW to all extremes.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

Waterfan said:


> No offense, there's very little to speculate on at this point, unfortunately.
> 
> VAG was caught by a third party, they admitted deliberate wrong doing, and have already publicly apologized. "All that's left" is the negotiation of the EPA fines/DOJ consent decree, settlement of class actions and trying to pick up the pieces of their massively tarnished image.


According to this recent article, it could get worse:

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/volkswagen-683915-cars-company.html

Full disclosure: my bold in the text below

"VW has halted U.S. sales of the affected vehicles and pledged to cooperate with regulators in an investigation that could potentially lead to $18 billion in fines against the company. 

This case also *could test the U.S. Justice Department’s initiative, announced Sept. 9, to hold individual executives accountable *for corporate wrongdoing.

The *EPA warned VW that it may refer the case to Justice for enforcement*, and noted that in addition to *corporate fines of up to $37,500 per vehicle*, *individuals could be fined $3,750 per violation of the Clean Air Act*, which could theoretically add up to $1.9 billion, given that half a million cars are involved."

It also goes on to state:
"Industry analysts said the VW CEO faces difficult questions in the coming days, particularly when the company’s board is scheduled to meet Friday. 

“At the moment, I’d be surprised if Winterkorn can ride this out, but in Germany there’s often a slightly slower process in these matters,” said Christian Stadler, a professor of strategic management at Warwick Business School. If VW were a U.S. company, the CEO would have gone more or less immediately, he said."


----------



## Uber Wagon (Dec 9, 2003)

noatonement said:


> I think we scrutinize this story so much and believe the fall out will be so extreme because we are on a car enthusiast site. I really want to gauge the general public's opinion on this and VW 6 months from now. I just feel like it will be like every other corporate scandal/story, the public will eventually forget about it and no one will even mention it outside of the enthusiast community.


This is true. I think this is an event that will change the course of VW in US. TDI as we know it will cease to exist in US market, replaced by plug in hybrids and EVs. So in that regard, its impact will be carried on longer than we think.


----------



## wolfcastle (Jul 28, 2006)

Every time i refresh this thread there are 5 new pages....do ya'll have jobs? I can't even keep up

Anyways, hopefully something good comes out of this.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

wolfcastle said:


> Every time i refresh this thread there are 5 new pages....do ya'll have jobs? I can't even keep up
> 
> Anyways, hopefully something good comes out of this.


My job is stop-sale right now because I had Taco Bell last night and failed this morning's office emissions test.


----------



## StlVDub (Aug 1, 2010)

GoHomePossum said:


> My job is stop-sale right now because I had Taco Bell last night and failed this morning's office emissions test.


I love this thread so much.


----------



## KawahBunga (Oct 14, 2010)

GoHomePossum said:


> My job is stop-sale right now because I had Taco Bell last night and failed this morning's office emissions test.


there goes my coffee. ALL over my keyboard.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Mike! said:


> That is kind of low.
> 
> Still, don't take it on the road. Greenpeace could picket you for driving your pollution-mobile and be even worse than a smug neighbor knocking on your door


Lol or Obama might chase me down.

There is a good reason all my neighbors call him one upper and hate him. 



1985Jetta said:


> I don't know if anybody's ever bought a diesel to be "green" :laugh:


I certainly didn't. We liked the torque and yes it's fun to drive. 



A&F said:


> They have know for over a year and had given VW that time to fix the issue. VW has not been able to do it.


Do they ever really fix an issue? If they do than new ones come up. It's always to be expected.


----------



## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

arstechnica said:


> VW scandal highlights irony of EPA opposition to vehicle software tinkering | Ars Technica
> 
> *VW scandal highlights irony of EPA opposition to vehicle software tinkering*
> 
> ...


----------



## StlVDub (Aug 1, 2010)

KawahBunga said:


> there goes my coffee. ALL over my keyboard.


I just need htr to come back and my day will be complete.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> "VW has halted U.S. sales of the affected vehicles and pledged to cooperate with regulators in an investigation that could potentially lead to $18 billion in fines against the company.


I realize you were just quoting a news article.

I think the BP Deepwater Horizon Gulf oil spill environmental fines were around $18 billion. I just don't see this leading to an $18 billion fine for VW.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

How I picture Martin Winterkorn:


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

StlVDub said:


> I just need htr to come back and my day will be complete.


Seems he can handle only so much schooling per day/thread and that quota was easily met for about a week.


----------



## VW_Enthu1 (Oct 23, 2004)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> How I picture Martin Winterkorn:


D*mn. You beat me too it. I was just going to put this up. It was the first thing I thought of too..:laugh:


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

Uber Wagon said:


> This is true. I think this is an event that will change the course of VW in US. TDI as we know it will cease to exist in US market, replaced by plug in hybrids and EVs. So in that regard, its impact will be carried on longer than we think.


This chain of events is going to put an interesting question to the test. How many TDI sales are the die-hard TDI-buyer fanclub who are going to keep buying after the dust settles, versus how many are going to be scared off?

I wonder what the impact will be for other unaffected brands like Ram, Jeep, BMW, M-B that have been building diesel acceptance for years.


----------



## KawahBunga (Oct 14, 2010)

StlVDub said:


> I just need htr to come back and my day will be complete.


dun diddly did diddly donuts all over my skiddly whoop

great lakes and fireball

GO BUCKNUTS


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

GoHomePossum said:


> My job is stop-sale right now because I had Taco Bell last night and failed this morning's office emissions test.


Brilliant.

Fines up to $37,500 per car? Holy **** snacks. Might as well just buy them all back at that point. 

Hope Tesla can get the Model III into production sooner...


----------



## CostcoPizza (Jan 20, 2008)

Mike! said:


> This chain of events is going to put an interesting question to the test. How many TDI sales are the die-hard TDI-buyer fanclub who are going to keep buying after the dust settles, versus how many are going to be scared off?
> 
> I wonder what the impact will be for other unaffected brands like Ram, Jeep, BMW, M-B that have been building diesel acceptance for years.


Not much. Truck buyers like Diesel because of MPG and TQ, not because of a "clean diesel" image.

MB diesels have a small but loyal fan base, many who've been buying before diesels were even clean.

Not sure on BMW's numbers, but diesel was never a long term plan for them in the US (and recently MB too).


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

spockcat said:


> I realize you were just quoting a news article.
> 
> I think the BP Deepwater Horizon Gulf oil spill environmental fines were around $18 billion. I just don't see this leading to an $18 billion fine for VW.



The law allows for $37,500 per infringing vehicle, times 500,000 infringing vehicles. The number wasn't made up out of nowhere and has been discussed earlier in the thread.


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

CostcoPizza said:


> Not much. Truck buyers like Diesel because of MPG and TQ, not because of a "clean diesel" image.
> 
> MB diesels have a small but loyal fan base, many who've been buying before diesels were even clean.
> 
> Not sure on BMW's numbers, but diesel was never a long term plan for them in the US (and recently MB too).


That's going to be the test, I guess. Strength of the cult vs. the strength of the backlash.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

OOOO-A3 said:


> The law allows for $37,500 per infringing vehicle, times 500,000 infringing vehicles. The number wasn't made up out of nowhere and has been discussed earlier in the thread.


Yeah $37,500 * 482,000 = $18,075,000,000. I honestly expect the fine will only be around $1200/vehicle, so about $600 million or so. A buyback would be crazy though. If the present fair-market value of the cars is roughly $18k, as some are new, but some are many years old and undoubtedly have lots of miles, $18k * 482,000 = $8.6 billion. That might shield them from any customer lawsuits, as you can't sue for damages if you've already been made whole.

That does nothing to stop the shareholder lawsuits however, which could be quite ugly. Corporate fraud is a big deal and those fines and lawsuit judgements can be similarly huge.


----------



## EF9Si (Dec 12, 2003)

So, my plate registration is coming up for renewal and I'm wondering if they will put a hold on to this too?:facepalm:


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

jnm2.0t said:


> No it isn't. When Lance doped so did like 95% of the other riders. It was so pervasive that TdF didn't bother appointing someone else the winner, they were all dopes.


That may turn out to be more applicable than we realize.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

Mike! said:


> That's going to be the test, I guess. Strength of the cult vs. the strength of the backlash.


I think people understand the need for work trucks hauling heavy items

And I dont think people who buy diesel trucks that don't need to haul are going to give 2 ****s what happened with VW and their little Golf and Jetta.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> Yeah $37,500 * 482,000 = $18,075,000,000. I honestly expect the fine will only be around $1200/vehicle, so about $600 million or so. A buyback would be crazy though. If the present fair-market value of the cars is roughly $18k, as some are new, but some are many years old and undoubtedly have lots of miles, $18k * 482,000 = $8.6 billion. That might shield them from any customer lawsuits, as you can't sue for damages if you've already been made whole.
> 
> That does nothing to stop the shareholder lawsuits however, which could be quite ugly. Corporate fraud is a big deal and those fines and lawsuit judgements can be similarly huge.


Will that pay for the GM bailout?


----------



## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

jnm2.0t said:


> I think people understand the need for work trucks hauling heavy items
> 
> And I dont think people who buy diesel trucks that don't need to haul are going to give 2 ****s what happened with VW and their little Golf and Jetta.


Very, very few people care about the clean diesel image. Most of the backlash I've seen from TDI owners, they're mad at the EPA for potentially requiring them to install software or hardware into their cars which could possibly hurt their fuel mileage. The majority of people buy TDIs to get 45 MPG, not to save trees. They buy hybrids to save trees.


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

jnm2.0t said:


> I think people understand the need for work trucks hauling heavy items
> 
> And I dont think people who buy diesel trucks that don't need to haul are going to give 2 ****s what happened with VW and their little Golf and Jetta.


The 3/4 ton & up market is naturally unrelated to what's going on in passenger car diesels.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> Yeah $37,500 * 482,000 = $18,075,000,000. I honestly expect the fine will only be around $1200/vehicle, so about $600 million or so. A buyback would be crazy though. If the present fair-market value of the cars is roughly $18k, as some are new, but some are many years old and undoubtedly have lots of miles, $18k * 482,000 = $8.6 billion. That might shield them from any customer lawsuits, as you can't sue for damages if you've already been made whole.
> 
> That does nothing to stop the shareholder lawsuits however, which could be quite ugly. Corporate fraud is a big deal and those fines and lawsuit judgements can be similarly huge.


I imagine a "plea bargain" type of arrangement where they'll offer a buyback, and won't receive a fine for those cars that they buy back, but will receive a fine (proportional to the number of not-bought-back cars) for the rest. I can't believe that a fine alone while allowing half a million infringing cars to stay in service is going to be an acceptable solution to either side. If I owned one and they waved well over market value in cash at me, I'd take the buyback regardless of how much I liked the car. Because money. We're not talking about rare museum pieces here, they're transportation commodities. Take the cash and get something a couple of years newer. 

Mazda should "invest" in taking trade-ins of TDIs on Mazda3s and then cash out for the inevitable buyback money :laugh:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

jsausley said:


> TDI owners, they're mad at the EPA for potentially requiring them to install software or hardware into their cars which could possibly hurt their fuel mileage.


I was wondering about this, the recall is mandatory for VW to issue, but I've never known a recall that was mandatory for the individual owner to *have to* have done (obviously residents in states with emission testing might have no choice about it). This could evolve into something interesting.


----------



## mx5er (Apr 28, 2001)

I'm sorry but I don't have time to scroll through 34 pages (and counting). I understand there's a hold on all TDI sitting on dealer lots? If there's a hold then, is VWoA doing something to accommodate the dealers with inventory that's just sitting on their lots?


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

A&F said:


> They have know for over a year and had given VW that time to fix the issue. VW has not been able to do it.


Source?


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

*Stop sale in Canada*

Just registered to say there's a stop sale in Canada now - may have already been posted and I missed it.

Of course, knowing the Canadian government we'll probably just require them to say "Ah geez, sorry eh?"


----------



## Professor Gascan (Sep 11, 2002)

ByronLLN said:


> That may turn out to be more applicable than we realize.


Now it's got me thinking (scary, I know: ) if the BBC/Guardian article is to be believed, and very few diesels actually meet the emissions targets in the real world, how did any of them get certified unless they're all gaming the system in some way? Unless it's that the VW 2.0TDI vehicles are the only ones that have actually been checked (and rejected,) and now the EPA is coming for the rest.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

jsausley said:


> Most of the backlash I've seen from TDI owners, they're mad at the EPA for potentially requiring them to install software or hardware into their cars which could possibly hurt their fuel mileage.


Wow, really?

I'm mad at VW, not at the EPA. Heck, as an affected TDI owner, I'm proud of the EPA, and hope they really hold VW to account. My only beef is how long this took.

Question: What causes you to know lots of TDI owners and acquire their views so quickly? Are you a VW mechanic? The engine's not very common in the US.

I know one guy who has one, but I haven't talked to him yet. But that's about it for me.


----------



## Uber Wagon (Dec 9, 2003)

Mike! said:


> That's going to be the test, I guess. Strength of the cult vs. the strength of the backlash.












Even before this TDI fiasco, Mercedes and BMW has been pulling out of "Diesel game" for years. Both have been promoting EV and Plug-ins as the next wave of "green cars".

Unfortunate thing is that VW had to be the one to put a coffin in diesel market in US. While I really doubt that Mercedes Sprinter will go Electric anytime soon, the days of E250 Bluetec sedan, BMW 328D, and VW Gof TDI are over. I see these diesel passenger cars gaining an "unicorn" status next few years.


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)

UPDATE on death toll related to this issue: 09/21/2015 5:49.59 (EST)

Still Zero.


----------



## Ajlal24 (Mar 7, 2007)

I just bought a Golf TDI and if this new REQUIRED software update is going to tarnish my MPG & Drive-ability, then the point of my purchase just well null-and-void. Being in CA, I'll surely have to take the car in to be reflashed before my next emissions test takes place. 

Reading into the various articles being posted and noting emissions systems, VW probably had to defeat emissions in order to maintain the lifespan of the DPF & Catalytic converters to stay within the 8/80,000 timeline. With as much of the pollutants being spewed out, they DPF would probably have been at max load within the first 15,000 miles of driving, and nobody is going to buy a $2-3000 DPF for their car every year or two. Not to mention, nobody is going to buy a $24,000 VW that has less power than a $14,000 Nissan Versa.

It dreadful to have this large of an issue come up with a car, not to mention if the solution is to have ill effects on the vehicles performance. I highly doubt we'll be screwed in the end, as any change in power/drive-ability will tarnish the "Clean Diesel" image for VAG. This is to say that Japanese manufacturers will gain stronghold in number one global sales.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

ClownCar said:


> UPDATE on death toll related to this issue: 09/21/2015 5:49.59 (EST)
> 
> Still Zero.


:laugh:


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

VW started to hedge its bets with the Jetta/Touraeg Hybrids and Cayenne Hybrid...when those models were launched I thought it was an odd play (given that they also offered TDI's in all of those model lines), but now I wonder if they were testing the proof of engineering and market acceptance, knowing that they would have to deploy Hybrid tech when TDI's were no longer viable.

Very curious to see what happens in the UK/EU over the next couple of weeks. This can't just be VW; nobody else in the Euro market is using SCR/DPF technology that is profoundly different than what VW is using.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

ClownCar said:


> UPDATE on death toll related to this issue: 09/21/2015 5:49.59 (EST)
> 
> Still Zero.


Just wait until the next VW stockholders meeting.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

caj1 said:


> Will that pay for the GM bailout?


htr Jr., is that you? :facepalm:


----------



## mx5er (Apr 28, 2001)

Oh geesh. I understand congressional hearings will start soon :facepalm: 

So it's basically going to be senators with no technical knowledge will start yelling at VW executives on C-span :facepalm: Them yelling will make themselves look tough and it will look good for their re-election campaign :facepalm:

Will any of them consult a staff member if they don't understand some of the technical stuff? Of course not :facepalm: It's going to be a circus.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Assuming they did have to do a buy back... what would they do with all the bought back polluting vehicles?
Send them to Canada?


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Maybe we should just ban Volkswagen.


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

BRealistic said:


> Assuming they did have to do a buy back... what would they do with all the bought back polluting vehicles?
> Send them to Canada?


South America and the Middle East would be my guess.


----------



## oldster1 (Oct 24, 2011)

Put this next to the VW or Audi insignia on you car ....... Betruger


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

mx5er said:


> Oh geesh. I understand congressional hearings will start soon :facepalm:
> 
> So it's basically going to be senators with no technical knowledge will start yelling at VW executives on C-span :facepalm: Them yelling will make themselves look tough and it will look good for their re-election campaign :facepalm:
> 
> Will any of them consult a staff member if they don't understand some of the technical stuff? Of course not :facepalm: It's going to be a circus.


You say that as if technical knowledge would allow them to see that VW *didn't* knowingly program the cars to cheat the test... when they've already admitted to it.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

mx5er said:


> I'm sorry but I don't have time to scroll through 34 pages (and counting). I understand there's a hold on all TDI sitting on dealer lots? If there's a hold then, is VWoA doing something to accommodate the dealers with inventory that's just sitting on their lots?


That's between VWoA and their dealership network. Let's say I own a VW dealer and currently have 6 affected TDIs either in inventory or that have already been invoiced and are being shipped to me. I may have paid $25k for them and expected to move them off the lot around $26.5k for a $1500 profit each. Now I am sitting on them. If I'm a typical dealer, I have an open line of credit so I'm paying interest and tying up 6 cars worth of my line of credit for vehicles I can't sell.

There's a good chance it will be at least a month before the new cars can be sold and they likely won't fetch that $26.5k that the dealer was expecting to get. If I were a VW dealer, I'd be asking for some manufacturer rebates to make it worth my time to get the cars sold. A lot of dealerships are part of a multi-brand network, so if I own a VW dealer as well as 6 other brands, I could try to muscle VWoA by telling them that if they don't deliver rebates I will shift more of my capital over to the non-VW brands until they get their act together. As a last resort, they just fold up the VW brand and focus on their competing brands instead. VW already has a questionable dealership network anyway, so they really do not want multi-brand owners shutting down their VW lots, because that translates into a permanent loss in future sales.


----------



## Stroker McCarlo (Feb 10, 2011)

Wonder if Justice Dept will use the RICO Act to go after VW


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

ClownCar said:


> UPDATE on death toll related to this issue: 09/21/2015 5:49.59 (EST)
> 
> Still Zero.


Nope, the number is 200,000 deaths per year, although VW isn't the only one causing them.

http://www.voanews.com/content/air-pollution-linked-to-early-death/1739804.html


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

ClownCar said:


> UPDATE on death toll related to this issue: 09/21/2015 5:49.59 (EST)
> 
> Still Zero.


I wasn't aware that people had to be actually killed for something to be recalled. You should work for GM or something.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

ClownCar said:


> UPDATE on death toll related to this issue: 09/21/2015 5:49.59 (EST)
> 
> Still Zero.


Excellent point.

Because it is difficult to associate any of the world's yearly 7 million air pollution deaths with any one pollution source, we must assume that no source has ever killed anyone.

DEATH TOLL RELATED TO SECOND-HAND SMOKE: Still zero.










DEATH TOLL RELATED TO CHINESE FACTORY SMOG: Still zero.










Stay helpful.


----------



## Uber Wagon (Dec 9, 2003)

BRealistic said:


> Assuming they did have to do a buy back... what would they do with all the bought back polluting vehicles?
> Send them to Canada?


Thailand?


----------



## G'D60 (Mar 11, 2002)

g-man_ae said:


> I need to scrounge the VW parts bin to change the "TDI" emblem on the Jetta to "TDLie"


Sig worthy


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

BRealistic said:


> Assuming they did have to do a buy back... what would they do with all the bought back polluting vehicles?
> Send them to Canada?


----------



## mx5er (Apr 28, 2001)

Mike! said:


> You say that as if technical knowledge would allow them to see that VW *didn't* knowingly program the cars to cheat the test... when they've already admitted to it.


I'm not talking about that. But the basics. Diesels? What's a diesel? Urea injection? What's that? NOx? What's that? :facepalm:

I'm gonna bet not a single person in congress who will grill VW executives know the basics.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

mx5er said:


> Oh geesh. I understand congressional hearings will start soon :facepalm:
> 
> So it's basically going to be senators with no technical knowledge will start yelling at VW executives on C-span :facepalm: Them yelling will make themselves look tough and it will look good for their re-election campaign :facepalm:
> 
> Will any of them consult a staff member if they don't understand some of the technical stuff? Of course not :facepalm: It's going to be a circus.


Well, I mean... that's their job... to grille people that cause wide spread damage in the country. Obviously they're not going to be experts in every situation that comes before them, but that shouldn't halt the process. Yeesh, turn those facepalms right back around on yourself.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

oldster1 said:


> Put this next to the VW or Audi insignia on you car ....... Betruger


Wait, is VW a shell corporation for UAC?


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

mx5er said:


> I'm not talking about that. But the basics. Diesels? What's a diesel? Urea injection? What's that? NOx? What's that? :facepalm:
> 
> I'm gonna bet not a single person in congress who will grill VW executives know the basics.


6 US Reps are car dealership owners. 25 Reps and another 4 Senators are farmers or ranchers. I'm sure someone's gotta know something.


----------



## mx5er (Apr 28, 2001)

Mike! said:


> 6 US Reps are car dealership owners.


I bought my share of cars or went with family and friends to dealer to shop. And man, and I'm not talking about all sales persons but I've seen my share of sale people who have no clue about the products they sell. Or have any basic knowledge about cars. I remember many, many times when a sales person told me some technical bull and me just nodding my head b/c I just want it to be over. 

And I'm sure it's the same for the owners.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

I wonder how General Motor's Cruze Diesel is reacting to this news?









































































:laugh:


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

DJMRDARK said:


> I wonder how General Motor's Cruze Diesel is reacting to this news?


Unless of course they were doing the same...


----------



## KARMANN_20V (May 25, 2005)

Kar98 said:


> Unless of course they were doing the same...


Not possible.


----------



## mx5er (Apr 28, 2001)

Will the new Cruze have a optional diesel?


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

OOOO-A3;88337428 If I owned one and they waved well over market value in cash at me said:


> That's me. However that would work well for me since I have had my car for 5 years and it is paid off. This wouldn't be so great though if I were only 1-2 years into ownership.


----------



## Galrot (Mar 23, 2009)

caj1 said:


> Source?


The letter from EPA to VW:










http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf


----------



## Cole Orlling (Mar 18, 2015)

mx5er said:


> I'm not talking about that. But the basics. Diesels? What's a diesel? Urea injection? What's that? NOx? What's that? :facepalm:
> 
> I'm gonna bet not a single person in congress who will grill VW executives know the basics.



I would wager the VW execs won't know much more.


----------



## turbine1986 (Jul 23, 2005)

Volkswagen out here trying to go out like daewoo. R.i.p
Lets pour out a liquor for vw.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Lol VW will be lucky if they end up like Daewoo.


----------



## wolfcastle (Jul 28, 2006)

GoHomePossum said:


> My job is stop-sale right now because I had Taco Bell last night and failed this morning's office emissions test.


Taco bell uses dog food grade meat...knowing this you sill eat it.

Tdi pollutes more than allowed and people still defend vw.

You possoms are all the same


----------



## Double-V (Mar 20, 2001)

Kar98 said:


> Unless of course they were doing the same...


This seems to have been alluded to in several articles, that it might be widespread across the industry.


----------



## firstorbit84 (Feb 25, 2006)

Anyone see the VW.ca site? Looks like all TDI references are gone


----------



## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

Now they're looking into the V6 TDI?


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Horn just now at the Passat unveiling:



> Our company was dishonest; we screwed up. We will correct this TDI issue. We will straighten this out. We will pay what we have to pay.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

GoHomePossum said:


> Horn just now at the Passat unveiling:


Shall we all chip in to send them a crate of pepper?


----------



## gonzo08452 (Apr 17, 2006)

How about a gofundme account


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

firstorbit84 said:


> Anyone see the VW.ca site? Looks like all TDI references are gone


They still show TDI available on the US site http://www.vw.com/models/golf-sportwagen/


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Shall we all chip in to send them a crate of pepper?


Nah. 

I want them to know what it's like to have your coil pack act up in the rain late at night in the middle of nowhere.

I want them to understand the pain of your water pump going out on the GW bridge in July.

I want them to experience the monetary hardship of putting a final drive bearing in your O2O gearbox in a lawnmower shed.

I want VW to feel my pain. And I want them to paaaaay.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

DasCC said:


> Now they're looking into the V6 TDI?


Yes.


----------



## adrew (Aug 15, 2003)

mx5er said:


> Will the new Cruze have a optional diesel?



The diesel will be a new 1.6T. And the 1.4T has an aluminum block now.
Lots more details: http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/...ovation/powertrain/0624-cruze-powertrain.html



GM said:


> Chevrolet will add a new clean diesel engine to the lineup in 2017, featuring a B20-capable 1.6L diesel already proven in Europe and other global markets.
> 
> “The current Cruze diesel has garnered a loyal following among customers seeking strong, clean and efficient diesel,” said Nicholson. “The next Cruze diesel will take those attributes to the next level with the very latest technology, offering what we expect will be the premier small-car diesel package in North America. It affirms GM’s commitment to offer diesel engines as an alternative propulsion choice for cars in North America and specifically targets the German dominance in the segment.”


Looks like it is this one:
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2013/01/opel-announces-all-new-1-6-liter-turbo-diesel-engine/



> The new 1.6 liter CDTI features an aluminum block, closed-loop combustion control, and is also the first diesel engine from Opel to comply with future Euro 6 emissions requirements. The mill will be good for 136 hp (137 PS) and 235 lb.-ft. of torque 320 (Nm) while consuming 10 percent less fuel compared to similarly-powerful 2.0 liter diesel engines.


----------



## KARMANN_20V (May 25, 2005)

GoHomePossum said:


> Nah.
> 
> I want them to know what it's like to have your coil pack act up in the rain late at night in the middle of nowhere.
> 
> ...


No window regulators??? You slacker!


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

KARMANN_20V said:


> No window regulators??? You slacker!


I got "lucky" and owned a mk3....the windows were great! :laugh:


----------



## KARMANN_20V (May 25, 2005)

GoHomePossum said:


> I got "lucky" and owned a mk3....the windows were great! :laugh:


Cmon now, at least for entertainment value.


----------



## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

VW are a bunch of cocks, because now the US hates diesels that much more.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

KARMANN_20V said:


> Cmon now, at least for entertainment value.


But oh God, I totally forgot about the door handles. Those goddamn ****ing doorhandles. I've never owned a car before the mk3 or after it where climbing in through the trunk was more convienient than using the doors

Oh! And the e-brake cable! And the dragging rear calipers.

Yeah VW, Karma is a bitch.


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

adrew said:


> The diesel will be a new 1.6T. And the 1.4T has an aluminum block now.
> Lots more details: http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/...ovation/powertrain/0624-cruze-powertrain.html
> 
> 
> ...


A 1.6TDI in the new Cruze? Where do I sign up?


----------



## Njaneer (Oct 2, 2006)

GoHomePossum said:


> Lol VW will be lucky if they end up like Daewoo.


----------



## Njaneer (Oct 2, 2006)

GoHomePossum said:


> But oh God, I totally forgot about the door handles. Those goddamn ****ing doorhandles. I've never owned a car before the mk3 or after it where climbing in through the trunk was more convienient than using the doors
> 
> Oh! And the e-brake cable! And the dragging rear calipers.
> 
> Yeah VW, Karma is a bitch.


----------



## KARMANN_20V (May 25, 2005)

GoHomePossum said:


> But oh God, I totally forgot about the door handles. Those goddamn ****ing doorhandles. I've never owned a car before the mk3 or after it where climbing in through the trunk was more convienient than using the doors
> 
> Oh! And the e-brake cable! And the dragging rear calipers.
> 
> Yeah VW, Karma is a bitch.


Lol, they brought it upon themselves, it seems. Never screw the Possum! And thank Goodness you didn't own more VWs, or else the sh!tstorm would've been even worse.


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

My 2015 RAM 1500 EcoDiesel is breaking the EPA 29 mpg rating also, wonder how much FCA will pay me to keep hush about this......


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Cutandthrust said:


> My 2015 RAM 1500 EcoDiesel is breaking the EPA 29 mpg rating also, wonder how much FCA will pay me to keep hush about this......


Hold stil, I want to probe your tailpipe.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

LOLs from TDI Club


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

firstorbit84 said:


> Anyone see the VW.ca site? Looks like all TDI references are gone


Nope. Still there.


----------



## Dubveiser (Aug 4, 2005)

Hawk said:


> Nope. Still there.


That a screen grab from VW.com not VW.ca...


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

Aonarch said:


> VW are a bunch of cocks, because now the US hates diesels that much more.


Peoples opinions in the US are that of a bunch of morons. It's not 1979 anymore, diesel isnt black clouds of soot anymore. As far as I'm concerned fanboi VW people will still drive them and the fair weather people will stop buying them because they only bought the car in the first place because it was cheap or hipster or whatever and they really didnt care about the brand to begin with. I dont know where people are talking about VW quality...I dont even think Hitler himself said they were good cars.



http://www.dw.com/en/opinion-from-bad-to-worse-volkswagen-in-the-us/a-18726198


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)




----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

^^^ 

Not Porsche too!!!!


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

Hawk said:


> ^^^
> 
> Not Porsche too!!!!


Don't worry, it's just the rebadged Tuareg.


----------



## VadGTI (Feb 24, 2000)

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand it gets worse. Apparently the TDI qualified for a $1,350 tax credit in 2009 that it actually was not eligible for, according to the LA Times. Apparently that subsidy added up to $51,000,000.

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-vw-subsidies-20150922-story.html



> U.S. taxpayers duped into shelling out $51 million in green subsidies for 'clean' VW vehicles
> 
> The federal government paid out as much as $51 million in green car subsidies for Volkswagen diesel vehicles based on falsified pollution test results, according to a Times analysis of the federal incentives.
> 
> ...


----------



## GTRaavv (May 4, 2009)

Don't have time to read through 37 pages. Can someone please tell me which VW/Audi/Porsche apologists have committed hara-kiri?


----------



## KARMANN_20V (May 25, 2005)

VadGTI said:


> Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand it gets worse. Apparently the TDI qualified for a $1,350 tax credit in 2009 that it actually was not eligible for, according to the LA Times. Apparently that subsidy added up to $51,000,000.
> 
> http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-vw-subsidies-20150922-story.html


Wait, what??? They sold 39,500 Jettas/JSW TDI in California alone in 2009???


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

GTRaavv said:


> Don't have time to read through 37 pages. Can someone please tell me which VW/Audi/Porsche apologists have committed hara-kiri?


Some have tried to spin this into a "I don't give a **** about emissions, this is a good thing" type deal, others are in utter denial and claiming that this is the government's fault and also a conspiracy, some are huddled into dark corners with towels over their heads mumbling something about how it will all be okay, and the rest don't seem to care.


----------



## VadGTI (Feb 24, 2000)

KARMANN_20V said:


> Wait, what??? They sold 39,500 Jettas/JSW TDI in California alone in 2009???


It was a federal tax credit, so I'm guessing nationwide.


----------



## atenza_freak (Feb 24, 2010)

I guess I'm kind of confused on why VW will need to pay 18 billion dollars for a recall that has not killed anyone and is useless on many states across this nation that don't do emission testing. Yet GM killed like 50+ people due to neglect and only had to pay 4.5 billion....


----------



## KARMANN_20V (May 25, 2005)

VadGTI said:


> It was a federal tax credit, so I'm guessing nationwide.


That makes sense


----------



## GTRaavv (May 4, 2009)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Some have tried to spin this into a "I don't give a **** about emissions, this is a good thing" type deal, others are in utter denial and claiming that this is the government's fault and also a conspiracy, some are huddled into dark corners with towels over their heads mumbling something about how it will all be okay, and the rest don't seem to care.


TornadoPete's latest alter ego rubbing feces on the wall after completely losing it? Shomegrown posting links to irrelevant and questionable counter spin stories?


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Mazda 3s said:


>


WOW.

To illustrate how f*ck3d VW will be if this also goes south...










...and another 20% lost to the market.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

Look for insider trading. VW lost 3.5% on Friday. The market didn't do so hot but look to see who maybe had shares offloaded.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

atenza_freak said:


> I guess I'm kind of confused on why VW will need to pay 18 billion dollars for a recall that has not killed anyone and is useless on many states across this nation that don't do emission testing. Yet GM killed like 50+ people due to neglect and only had to pay 4.5 billion....


You're confused because you're completely wrong and this explains why:




atomicalex said:


> GM'S ignition switches WERE NOT DEFECTIVE!!!! They performed exactly as designed, to a design modification demanded by their customers!!!
> 
> GM took the hit because it was a PR issue and agreed with NHTSA that their design spec did not account for certain real world situations.
> 
> ...


----------



## nm+ (Jan 6, 2006)

atenza_freak said:


> I guess I'm kind of confused on why VW will need to pay 18 billion dollars for a recall that has not killed anyone and is useless on many states across this nation that don't do emission testing. Yet GM killed like 50+ people due to neglect and only had to pay 4.5 billion....


Intentional fraud. It is why we punish someone involved in an accident that killed someone less than someone who defrauds a bunch of people. Intent means everything in the law.
VW's going to be lucky if no one goes to prison over this.

Also, "don't do emissions testing." You still have to be emissions legal to sell there, and you really have to be emissions legal to claim tax credits to boost sales.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

atenza_freak said:


> I guess I'm kind of confused on why VW will need to pay 18 billion dollars for a recall that has not killed anyone and is useless on many states across this nation that don't do emission testing. Yet GM killed like 50+ people due to neglect and only had to pay 4.5 billion....


Your numbers are wrong, your assumptions are wrong, and all your information is bad, and you should feel bad.


----------



## atenza_freak (Feb 24, 2010)

AZGolf said:


> Your numbers are wrong, your assumptions are wrong, and all your information is bad, and you should feel bad.


Your right my numbers are wrong. It killed 124 as of July 15http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/07/13/gm-ignition-switch-death-toll/30092693/


And it was only 3.8 billion which is just stupid that vw should pay any more than that. When this gm recall affected 6 times the amount of cars people believed were safe.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/2...tims-of-faulty-ignition-switch.html?referrer=

Also the airbag recall that affect 35 million cars and killed 8 people are only at a $1 million fine with their 14,000 a day fine
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-honda-takata-recall-20150514-story.html


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

atenza_freak said:


> Your right my numbers are wrong. It killed 124 as of July 15http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/07/13/gm-ignition-switch-death-toll/30092693/
> 
> And it was only 3.8 billion which is just stupid that vw should pay any more than that. When this gm recall affected 6 times the amount of cars people believed were safe.
> http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/2...tims-of-faulty-ignition-switch.html?referrer=


As mentioned above, intent is important. The GM switches worked fine, yet there was a variable unaccounted for, and unfortunately people died. If GM knew from the start that the switches would go wrong, lied about it to the feds, and put them in the cars anyway, that would be different. It was really an accident. They ****ed up by covering it up, but this is neither here nor there.

VW is getting hit hard because they knew from the beginning their cars would not pass emissions, so they cheated and lied about it, not only to their customers, but most importantly, to the EPA. VW's intent from the very beginning was to cheat and lie. That's a huge deal.


----------



## nm+ (Jan 6, 2006)

Number of people GM intended to kill: 0
Number of people Takata intended to kill: 0
Number of people VW intended to defraud: 500,000 plus every taxpayer in the US. **** them, they essentially stole $51 million in tax dollars in "green" subsidies they knew they didn't qualify for. http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-vw-subsidies-20150922-story.html Seriously, you're the ponzi scheme victim that blames the government for shutting the scam down. You should be worried about your lost resale value and future decreased performance.


----------



## atenza_freak (Feb 24, 2010)

nm+ said:


> Number of people GM intended to kill: 0
> Number of people Takata intended to kill: 0
> Number of people VW intended to defraud: 500,000 plus every taxpayer in the US. **** them, they essentially stole $51 million in tax dollars in "green" subsidies they knew they didn't qualify for. http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-vw-subsidies-20150922-story.html


Sorry I just don't find this fair like you do. My views. I didn't buy my tdi for the emissions what so ever. I could care less, but I live in bum **** south dakota where their ok with giant diesel trucks blowing mountains of smoke out of everyday. I think what vw did is terrible but I can go on driving my jetta for the next 4 years happy and getting good mpg. Now if with my honda which is affected by that air bag recall kind of scares me to drive due to if I get in a accident and get shrapnel in my face


----------



## Double-V (Mar 20, 2001)

nm+ said:


> Number of people GM intended to kill: 0
> Number of people Takata intended to kill: 0
> Number of people VW intended to defraud: 500,000 plus every taxpayer in the US. **** them, they essentially stole $51 million in tax dollars in "green" subsidies they knew they didn't qualify for. http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-vw-subsidies-20150922-story.html Seriously, you're the ponzi scheme victim that blames the government for shutting the scam down. You should be worried about your lost resale value and future decreased performance.


Well, GM did know there was a fault with the ignitions and did not take action. They didn't intend to kill anyone but they did know there was a flaw based on the changes made. It is still different than the VW case because the VW case is clearly one of intent to defraud, but don't make it sound like GM was some innocent party that said "Gee, would you look at that, who knew???" when they actually did know there was a pretty significant issue in some unique circumstances, and they were forced to do the recalls.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Methinks Shomegrown is under a very strict NDA.


----------



## nm+ (Jan 6, 2006)

atenza_freak said:


> Sorry I just don't find this fair like you do. My views. I didn't buy my tdi for the emissions what so ever. I could care less, but I live in bum **** south dakota where their ok with giant diesel trucks blowing mountains of smoke out of everyday. I think what vw did is terrible but I can go on driving my jetta for the next 4 years happy and getting good mpg. Now if with my honda which is affected by that air bag recall kind of scares me to drive due to if I get in a accident and get shrapnel in my face


You bought it because of the price, the performance, the fuel economy, resale, and maybe the perceived reliability. You're going to lose all those things after the recall (which you'll have to do to keep warranty coverage). You may not realize it, but you will lose some money out of this.
We punish intentional acts more than accidents, that is the essence of the justice system.




Double-V said:


> Well, GM did know there was a fault with the ignitions and did not take action. They didn't intend to kill anyone but they did know there was a flaw based on the changes made. It is still different than the VW case because the VW case is clearly one of intent to defraud, but don't make it sound like GM was some innocent party that said "Gee, would you look at that, who knew???" when they actually did know there was a pretty significant issue in some unique circumstances, and they were forced to do the recalls.


Which is why they had to pay like $1 billion in fines.


----------



## atenza_freak (Feb 24, 2010)

nm+ said:


> You bought it because of the price, the performance, the fuel economy, resale, and maybe the perceived reliability. You're going to lose all those things after the recall (which you'll have to do to keep warranty coverage). You may not realize it, but you will lose some money out of this.
> We punish intentional acts more than accidents, that is the essence of the justice system.
> 
> 
> ...


No warranty left and I do all my own mx. So I'm ok for the next few years. If it is just a reflash and doesn't affect performance and mpg that much then I'll go get it done. My resale is pretty ****ed on it already from hail doing enough damage to get a damage disclosure on it. So just going to enjoy cheap refuels and (knock on wood) good reliability so far.


----------



## Double-V (Mar 20, 2001)

nm+ said:


> Which is why they had to pay like $1 billion in fines.


Exactly. Plus the class action lawsuits that will take years to unfold. I was just pointing out that people are making it seem like GM was totally caught unawares and didn't try to hide the issue. They did know there was an issue, they did conceal it from regulators, and they pled guilty to doing so.

This situation with VW is different because it was a tactic that was used on a systemic basis to bolster sales, not to play the odds that the odd car might not be compliant.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

Numbersix said:


> Methinks Shomegrown is under a very strict NDA.


Excuse me, Numbersix, but isn't it "I thinks"?


----------



## TangoRed (Sep 7, 2005)

Numbersix said:


> Methinks Shomegrown is under a very strict NDA.


Indeed. This must be a big blow for him.


----------



## T_Dub (Nov 9, 2006)

I think this has been blown out of proportion. VW skirted around some silly test, big deal. The cars are as good as advertised, and NOx isn't killing anyone in such a low volume. You're talking 500,000 cars across a continent. Couple malfunctioning furnaces at a refinery or two and its a moot point.

They were clever to not get caught for so long. The worst thing to come out of this is that their reputation will take a hit. Thats why they shouldn't have done it.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

T_Dub said:


> I think this has been blown out of proportion..


For VW's sake, they should hope it's actually the tip of the iceberg.
If it comes out that other manufacturers are doing something similar with their diesels,. then it becomes an industry issues instead of just a VW issue.

Have any other manufacturers come out and said anything about this yet- even just social media?
I would think anybody selling a diesel car would want to state that they are confident their vehicles actually meet emission standards in normal use....
If everybody is tight lipped, then maybe this is an industry issue.


----------



## Red Flag (Aug 25, 2015)

nm+ said:


> Number of people GM intended to kill: 0
> Number of people Takata intended to kill: 0


You really don't know this.


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

A lot of people of been totally underestimating this $#!?storm even when the figures was "just" 500,000 cars. 

Now Volkswagen have suggested that this software issue revealed by the EPA could affect as many as 11 Million vehicles worldwide. 

http://www.usnews.com/news/business...erating-with-german-investigation-of-vehicles

They are well and truly ____ed! 

I feel bad for the customers who will have to deal with this, but even worse for the employees who count on a job with VW to put food on their tables and who had nothing to do with these decisions. They have now been placed at serious risk. 

>8^)
ER


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

ouch 11Million... seems like all of em.

buy in the 40s


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

As we watch this stock price plummet think of how many Volkswagen employees likely have a large portion of their retirement funds tied up in VW stock. Another aspect that will be devastating in all of this.

This isn't going to be forgotten about in 6 months - no way. 

>8^)
ER


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

atenza_freak said:


> Sorry I just don't find this fair like you do. My views. I didn't buy my tdi for the emissions what so ever.


Totally irrelevant.


----------



## TangoRed (Sep 7, 2005)

BRealistic said:


> For VW's sake, they should hope it's actually the tip of the iceberg.
> If it comes out that other manufacturers are doing something similar with their diesels,. then it becomes an industry issues instead of just a VW issue.
> 
> Have any other manufacturers come out and said anything about this yet- even just social media?
> ...


BMW said this doesn't affect their cars and Dieter Zetsche said "I have a rough idea of what is happening and that it does not apply to us. But it is much too early to make a final statement on this."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/20/us-usa-volkswagen-ceo-idUSKCN0RK0IK20150920


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

Turbio! said:


> Totally irrelevant.


Its a little pointless arguing with someone who doesn't get that just because your locality doesn't sniff tailpipes, doesn't mean you can remove or disable fed.-mandated emissions equipment.


----------



## atenza_freak (Feb 24, 2010)

Turbio! said:


> Totally irrelevant.


If your profile is correct then how is anything you say related when owning a subaru? Saying it was my view on the subject and why I bought a tdi seems pretty relevant to people saying how all of us owners should be scared and spread our butt holes for the fisting that will happen according to their speculation.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

widening... http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswa...entire-auto-industry-officials-say-1442915079


----------



## Village Idiot™ (Jan 20, 2005)

Dun dun duuunnnnnnnn!

And the plot thickens.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/22/news/vw-recall-diesel/index.html

11 million cars world wide. I'm guessing those in China aren't required to even have exhaust on them. :laugh:


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

Village Idiot™ said:


> Dun dun duuunnnnnnnn!
> 
> And the plot thickens.


I have no sympathy for VW, but Richard Quest is a choad.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

The diesel car is hugely under fire now, not just VW. Inspections across multiple makes now. 

Combine that with increased taxes for city use and bye bye diesel. 



BBC Business said:


> VW emissions scandal hits 11m vehicles
> 
> Volkswagen says 11 million vehicles worldwide are affected by the scandal that has erupted over its rigging of US car emissions tests.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sledge (May 15, 2005)

Village Idiot™ said:


> 11 million cars world wide.


And that was what we were waiting for. Just US cars affected made little sense for a global product.


----------



## LindsayLowhan (May 29, 2010)

See now what did we just learn from this? 1.8T FOR THE WIN!!!!


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Village Idiot™ said:


> Dun dun duuunnnnnnnn!
> 
> And the plot thickens.
> 
> ...


What that article doesn't mention is that the software doesn't do anything for the majority of those 11 million vehicles - according to VW anyway.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Red Flag said:


> You really don't know this.


Stop being sub-par.


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

Hajduk said:


> What that article doesn't mention is that the software doesn't do anything for the majority of those 11 million vehicles - according to VW anyway.


Believe you've gotten that wrong - the wording of the VW press release suggests the effects of the trick occur with 11 million but that the rest of their diesel lineup feature the same software where the trick is not employed. 

"Further internal investigations conducted to date have established that the relevant engine management software is also installed in other Volkswagen Group vehicles with diesel engines. For the majority of these engines the software does not have any effect.
Discrepancies relate to vehicles with Type EA 189 engines, involving some eleven million vehicles worldwide. A noticeable deviation between bench test results and actual road use was established solely for this type of engine. Volkswagen is working intensely to eliminate these deviations through technical measures. The company is therefore in contact with the relevant authorities and the German Federal Motor Transport Authority (KBA – Kraftfahrtbundesamt)."

Source: http://www.volkswagenag.com/content..._AG_has_issued_the_following_information.html

>8^)
ER


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Numbersix said:


> Methinks Shomegrown is under a very strict NDA.


I think a lot of 'Immediate Termination' memos were emailed out the past couple days with regard to speaking online about this.

We haven't heard from Masa either in this thread, but not that I expected to.


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

LindsayLowhan said:


> See now what did we just learn from this? 1.8T FOR THE WIN!!!!


You should have learned that in '01 or something.


----------



## CorradoFANATIC (Feb 22, 2001)

Interesting Norwegian article (use google translate), where a researcher says that they have measured high levels of NOx and that "Models from Volkswagen does not differ appreciably from other brands"...
http://www.dn.no/privat/dnBil/2015/09/22/1313/Milj/diesel-personbiler-verre-enn-lastebiler


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

atenza_freak said:


> If your profile is correct then how is anything you say related when owning a subaru? Saying it was my view on the subject and why I bought a tdi seems pretty relevant to people saying how all of us owners should be scared and spread our butt holes for the fisting that will happen according to their speculation.


Yes, I own a Subaru. That's also irrelevant. Fact is, whether you care or not about emissions or whether you live in South Dakota, this is a matter of compliance with Federal (not State) regulations that are in place for very good reason. 

Nobody's saying you should be afraid, or that you will be ass-fisted. I am, however, saying that your car will shortly not be permitted to operate on US roads, and that the manufacturer will have very little choice but to begin a buyback campaign.


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> I think a lot of 'Immediate Termination' memos were emailed out the past couple days with regard to speaking online about this.
> 
> We haven't heard from Masa either in this thread, but not that I expected to.


Yeah - I don't find any of the "silence" from certain posters surprising - and I certainly don't blame them. 

I was being serious when I asked about people in VW sales and service jumping ship or not. Wish you all the best - not like this impact could be foreseen or controlled from that end, hope it isn't painful.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Peloton25 said:


> Believe you've gotten that wrong - the wording of the VW press release suggests the effects of the trick occur with 11 million but that the rest of their diesel lineup feature the same software where the trick is not employed.
> 
> "Further internal investigations conducted to date have established that the relevant engine management software is also installed in other Volkswagen Group vehicles with diesel engines. For the majority of these engines the software does not have any effect.
> Discrepancies relate to vehicles with Type EA 189 engines, involving some eleven million vehicles worldwide. A noticeable deviation between bench test results and actual road use was established solely for this type of engine. Volkswagen is working intensely to eliminate these deviations through technical measures. The company is therefore in contact with the relevant authorities and the German Federal Motor Transport Authority (KBA – Kraftfahrtbundesamt)."
> ...


Oh. I see.:thumbup:


----------



## RogueTDI (Dec 12, 2002)

guachi said:


> Testing showed cheater vehicles with 10-40x the NOx emissions than they should have had. That's huge. Bought a 2015 TDI SE Sportwagen two weeks ago. I wonder if a class action suit will commence and what the differences between the new engine with AdBlue and the old engines are.


This is horse dung.

That is 3rd party testing/claim. And the same claim can be made of virtually any vehicle on the road. Lab condition testing will never match real world conditions. The 10-40 times is based on transient performances. In other words, someone driving their car in anger or in ways not identical to EPA test cycle, will pollute more. Shocker!

I freaging hate politics. And so far, this entire issue is more about politics than anything. I'm more angry with EPA bs and its adherents than I am with VW. Frankly, shame and blame on EPA for a system that allows such a simple "cheat" to escape them for years. F EPA!

My car drives fine and is very clean by any standard. My fear is some bureaucrat preventing me registering my car. Not my car hurting my local air quality.


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

Latest headline - Wintekorn out. Replaced by Matthias Mueller from Porsche. 

If true, that shoe dropped faster than I expected. 

>8^)
ER


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Peloton25 said:


> I feel bad for the customers who will have to deal with this, but even worse for the employees who count on a job with VW to put food on their tables and who had nothing to do with these decisions. They have now been placed at serious risk.
> 
> >8^)
> ER


This is what I was thinking. Hell, even the small dealership owners (not so much the big chain dealerships). They may have much of their net worth tied up in a single dealership.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

RogueTDI said:


> This is horse dung.
> 
> That is 3rd party testing/claim. And the same claim can be made of virtually any vehicle on the road. Lab condition testing will never match real world conditions. The 10-40 times is based on transient performances. In other words, someone driving their car in anger or in ways not identical to EPA test cycle, will pollute more. Shocker!
> 
> ...


Not just any standard! 1981 standards! :laugh:

You're in denial, dude. You need to get a grip on reality, because the cognitive dissonance is about to make your head explode.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Peloton25 said:


> Latest headline - Wintekorn out. Replaced by Matthias Mueller from Porsche.
> 
> If true, that shoe dropped faster than I expected.
> 
> ...


Say it ain't so!


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Peloton25 said:


> Latest headline - Wintekorn out. Replaced by Matthias Mueller from Porsche.
> 
> If true, that shoe dropped faster than I expected.
> 
> ...


Wow, that was quick. Usually the Germans drag their feet like toddlers past bedtime on **** like this.


----------



## A&F (Feb 13, 2013)

RogueTDI said:


> This is horse dung.
> 
> That is 3rd party testing/claim. And the same claim can be made of virtually any vehicle on the road. Lab condition testing will never match real world conditions. The 10-40 times is based on transient performances. In other words, someone driving their car in anger or in ways not identical to EPA test cycle, will pollute more. Shocker!
> 
> ...


Really? Even after VW admitted they have been cheating you think this is a political conspiracy?


Look at it this way, if a Bank or investment group got caught breaking the law, not paying taxes, making illegal trades, whatever; would you be up in arms that they are getting fined?

To sell a Vehicle in the US, you have to pass emissions. VW faked their emission tests so they can sell vehicles that did not meet US emissions. /fin


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Turbio! said:


> Wow, that was quick. Usually the Germans drag their feet like toddlers past bedtime on **** like this.


http://www.theguardian.com/business...orms-greek-cabinet-vw-emissions-business-live

Couple corroborating tweets in that link.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

Turbio! said:


> Not just any standard! 1981 standards! :laugh:
> 
> You're in denial, dude. Get a goddamn grip on reality.


Wonder if the GM V8 diesel had lower emissions than these TDIs... :laugh:


----------



## Code Red! (Sep 22, 2011)

RogueTDI said:


> This is horse dung.
> 
> That is 3rd party testing/claim. And the same claim can be made of virtually any vehicle on the road. Lab condition testing will never match real world conditions. The 10-40 times is based on transient performances. In other words, someone driving their car in anger or in ways not identical to EPA test cycle, will pollute more. Shocker!
> 
> ...


The issue isn't with the amount of pollutant it's the fact that VW outright lied and rigged their product to pass a test it would have otherwise failed.

Comparison: Emmett's Possum Porridge Company offers the FDA a box of Tasty Tail Tabbouleh for testing, and it passes with flying colors. However it was not the same product as what they are selling on a daily basis, this was a box provided only to pass testing purposes. You just can't do that. So VW is going to have to deal with the fallout, and it can have global repercussions. 

This is going to be a very interesting story to watch.


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

RogueTDI said:


> This is horse dung.
> 
> That is 3rd party testing/claim. And the same claim can be made of virtually any vehicle on the road. Lab condition testing will never match real world conditions. The 10-40 times is based on transient performances. In other words, someone driving their car in anger or in ways not identical to EPA test cycle, will pollute more. Shocker!
> 
> ...


This is elephant dung. :laugh:

You are truly ignorant if you think VW would be bending over like this with apologies and allowing their stock to lose over 30% of its value in a two day period if their cars were actually as clean as they should be. 

Pull your head out and get ready to grab your ankles. 

>8^)
ER


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Peloton25 said:


> Latest headline - Wintekorn out. Replaced by Matthias Mueller from Porsche.
> 
> If true, that shoe dropped faster than I expected.
> 
> ...


Rumor is Horn will go as well.


----------



## pasateando (Mar 19, 2002)

LindsayLowhan said:


> See now what did we just learn from this? 1.8T FOR THE WIN!!!!


Good thing I still have my 2005 1.8T passat wagon!


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

RogueTDI said:


> In other words, someone driving their car in anger or in ways not identical to EPA test cycle, will pollute more. Shocker!


It will be interesting to see how much dirtier they are when exposed to the exact EPA testing.

The EPA cycle does contain some full load testing, but when I see gassers on the road, and they open it up, I wonder if the brown load of aromatic particulates that dump out of the exhaust is within EPA specs.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

A&F said:


> Really? Even after VW admitted they have been cheating you think this is a political conspiracy?
> 
> 
> Look at it this way, if a Bank or investment group got caught breaking the law, not paying taxes, making illegal trades, whatever; would you be up in arms that they are getting fined?
> ...


I'll agree that all of this is definitely not political, but his bureaucrat vs. pollution stance is probably the one I'd take.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

coderedcomputing said:


> Comparison: Emmett's Possum Porridge Company offers the FDA a box of Tasty Tail Tabbouleh for testing, and it passes with flying colors. However it was not the same product as what they are selling on a daily basis, this was a box provided only to pass testing purposes. You just can't do that.


Sign me up for a Costco sized box opcorn:


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

coderedcomputing said:


> Comparison: Emmett's Possum Porridge Company offers the FDA a box of Tasty Tail Tabbouleh for testing, and it passes with flying colors. However it was not the same product as what they are selling on a daily basis, this was a box provided only to pass testing purposes. You just can't do that.


****.


----------



## firstorbit84 (Feb 25, 2006)

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34325005 

They were setting aside €6.5B to deal with this? What? Could they not have just fixed it earlier for that much?


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 7, 1999)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/business...orms-greek-cabinet-vw-emissions-business-live
> 
> Couple corroborating tweets in that link.


Still not confirmed and "denied" by VW spokesperson so... still early for that.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

firstorbit84 said:


> http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34325005
> 
> They were setting aside €6.5B to deal with this? What? Could they not have just fixed it earlier for that much?


Do not question the German way.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Still not confirmed and "denied" by VW spokesperson so... still early for that.


We know it's inevitable, though...even if the word is breaking a few minutes early.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> Still not confirmed and "denied" by VW spokesperson so... still early for that.


It's been denied now by a VW spokesperson.


----------



## MagnetoReluctance (Aug 14, 2003)

RogueTDI said:


> This is horse dung.
> 
> That is 3rd party testing/claim. And the same claim can be made of virtually any vehicle on the road. Lab condition testing will never match real world conditions. The 10-40 times is based on transient performances. In other words, someone driving their car in anger or in ways not identical to EPA test cycle, will pollute more. Shocker!
> 
> ...


What a fscking stupid rant. The EPA doesn't have the means to perform widespread testing across all makes - hell , they practically have to ask automakers to police themselves when it comes to mileage standards. Republicans and all of the so called "fiscal conservatives" in Congress have gutted the budgets of these agencies to the point where they can't afford to.

How can you blame them for that?


----------



## MonsterM (Aug 10, 2005)

This so blown out of proportion if you look at the greater picture and how much effect this will actually have on pollution. I agree, VW should be heavily fined but this is politics at its worst and at the end of the day it is your average Joe that is going to get screwed. This is not even remotely close to be as bad as the faulty air bag or ignition switch fiasco.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Surf Green said:


> It will be interesting to see how much dirtier they are when exposed to the exact EPA testing.
> 
> The EPA cycle does contain some full load testing, but when I see gassers on the road, and they open it up, I wonder if the brown load of aromatic particulates that dump out of the exhaust is within EPA specs.


But if they needed to gimp the software to pass the EPA test, it wasn't capable of passing the EPA test to begin with, regardless of its performance at full load. That's why most of the stories are quoting a range between 15 and 40 times the limit - presumably it varies based on load, but it's not compliant across much of the load range. 

And just to address anybody who thinks it's actually EPA's fault for not catching them: this is ONE program office, incredibly understaffed and overworked, in an agency with a massively cramped budget and one facility in (I believe) Ohio. OEMs are basically expected to test and report fuel economy and emissions performance in good faith. You want EPA out aggressively tracking this **** down, that agency needs more funding and manpower than the anti-environment right is willing to grant it.


----------



## A&F (Feb 13, 2013)

rbloedow said:


> What a fscking stupid rant. The EPA doesn't have the means to perform widespread testing across all makes - hell , they practically have to ask automakers to police themselves when it comes to mileage standards. Republicans and all of the so called "fiscal conservatives" in Congress have gutted the budgets of these agencies to the point where they can't afford to.
> 
> How can you blame them for that?


Gutted? They have a $9 billion budget.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

MonsterM said:


> This so blown out of proportion if you look at the greater picture and how much effect this will actually have on pollution. I agree, VW should be heavily fined but this is politics at its worst and at the end of the day it is your average Joe that is going to get screwed. This is not even remotely close to be as bad as the faulty air bag or ignition switch fiasco.


How is this blown out of proportion? It is something that is probably, based on tests, happening across many companies across a global market. To create something specifically to con a test into thinking you are passing is bad. It just is. No politics there. I also fail to see how the "average Joe" is getting "screwed." If they are getting screwed, it is by VW, not by the government or by any level of politics. 

The airbag faults are bad and still being felt. The ignition switch is bad and getting close to the end of litigation, at least. This is just beginning for VW.


----------



## MonsterM (Aug 10, 2005)

Peloton25 said:


> Latest headline - Wintekorn out. Replaced by Matthias Mueller from Porsche.
> 
> If true, that shoe dropped faster than I expected.
> 
> ...


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

MonsterM said:


> This so blown out of proportion if you look at the greater picture and how much effect this will actually have on pollution. I agree, VW should be heavily fined but this is politics at its worst and at the end of the day it is your average Joe that is going to get screwed. This is not even remotely close to be as bad as the faulty air bag or ignition switch fiasco.


Average Joe is going to be fine. The buyout will take care of that. And actual effects may not be extremely severe, but this was a flagrant, calculated, ongoing attempt to deceive a regulatory agency enforcing one of the main environmental laws we have, capped by a solution that didn't solve the problem and which is probably yet another deception. Hard to blow that out of proportion; it's massive corporate malfeasance. Glad it didn't kill anybody, but as a regulatory violation it's hard to overstate the severity.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

Turbio! said:


> And just to address anybody who thinks it's actually EPA's fault for not catching them: this is ONE program office, incredibly understaffed and overworked, in an agency with a massively cramped budget and one facility in (I believe) Ohio.


It pains me to say it as an OSU fan but the office is in some wretched place known as Ann Arbor, Michigan. :wave: 
http://www3.epa.gov/nvfel/


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

A&F said:


> Gutted? They have a $9 billion budget.


For all inland and coastal environmental regulations, testing, research, and planning. Including clean water, clean air, point-source pollution, etc.

Don't act like all epa does is air or car pollution.


----------



## skramer (Jun 23, 2012)

I've always thought car companies did this...I'm certain if you start testing the latest gDI setups in a similar fashion, you would find they need the same expensive emission systems as a TDI


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Tornado2dr said:


> For all inland and coastal environmental regulations, testing, research, and planning. Including clean water, clean air, point-source pollution, etc.
> 
> Don't act like all epa does is air or car pollution.


I was just about to reply - what a moronic thing for even Corbic to say. 9 billion is a minuscule budget for what they do. And it was actually 7.89 billion for FY15, not 9.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

Tornado2dr said:


> For all inland and coastal environmental regulations, testing, research, and planning. Including clean water, clean air, point-source pollution, etc.
> 
> Don't act like all epa does is air or car pollution.


Also US EPAs budget includes a significant amount of pass through money that goes to the states for implementation of state/local level environmental programs.


----------



## RogueTDI (Dec 12, 2002)

TheGermanExperience said:


> I can't wait until all diesel's are off the road - they are rolling mini coal power plants and are at the end of their life cycle, IMO. I'm super tired of not being able to drive around and sniff clean air on a daily basis without some sooty smelly diesel mucking up my space. Big rigs, UPS trucks, mail trucks, smaller delivery trucks and euro vans, landscapers, SCHOOL BUSES (poor kids), and worst of all bros in their pickups with stacks rolling stupid coal.
> 
> You can troll every diesel forum and see first hand that the current emissions equipment needed to clean them up just jacks up EGR temps and clogs up the whole system. A truly clean diesel with the higher price of this equipment and upkeep really makes the cars not financially workable. Also, the people who circumvent these filters should be fined heavily. People wonder why there's so many incurable disease today (asthma, cancer, allergies, autism, alzheimer's, etc) and who is to know whether any of these are a result of these pollutants (soot particles are so small they easily penetrate right into your lungs). Maybe this sounds extreme but my point is it's time to clean this mess up and it's something that can be solved. And I love how the EPA and Obama are so evil that people would rather pollute and breathe in nasty air. "That's how the greens make their money!!" Well good job lining the other evil polluters' pockets with money, much better folks they are. Sorry for the rant - about to make the commute home and breathe in a bunch more diesel.


Lol. As if gasoline cars/emissions aren't also a significant source of pollution.


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

World's most profitable automaker, suck it haters!!1!


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

almost 3 years to the date.... awwwwwkward. Volkswagen’s U.S. Diesel Strategy: An Interview with Doug Skorupski – http://www.thedieseldriver.com/2012...el-strategy-an-interview-with-doug-skorupski/


----------



## MonsterM (Aug 10, 2005)

MCTB said:


> How is this blown out of proportion? It is something that is probably, based on tests, happening across many companies across a global market. To create something specifically to con a test into thinking you are passing is bad. It just is. No politics there. I also fail to see how the "average Joe" is getting "screwed." If they are getting screwed, it is by VW, not by the government or by any level of politics.
> 
> The airbag faults are bad and still being felt. The ignition switch is bad and getting close to the end of litigation, at least. This is just beginning for VW.


The overall effect of this on global pollution will be minimal, if non-existent. I am not aware of anyone being injured as a result of this. Like I said, VAG should pay heavy fines for it and they will. From what I am reading now about this situation, the extent of the punishment is going to be massive and will result in a lot of middle class workers/suppliers to lose their job/business as a result just so the big EPA can flex its muscles.


----------



## RogueTDI (Dec 12, 2002)

coderedcomputing said:


> The issue isn't with the amount of pollutant it's the fact that VW outright lied and rigged their product to pass a test it would have otherwise failed.
> 
> Comparison: Emmett's Possum Porridge Company offers the FDA a box of Tasty Tail Tabbouleh for testing, and it passes with flying colors. However it was not the same product as what they are selling on a daily basis, this was a box provided only to pass testing purposes. You just can't do that. So VW is going to have to deal with the fallout, and it can have global repercussions.
> 
> This is going to be a very interesting story to watch.


Actually, what VW did or did not actually do, is still hugely a matter of conjecture, and it blows my mind how so many people are happy to crucify them on what at this point still amounts to an accusation.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

RogueTDI said:


> Actually, what VW did or did not actually do, is still hugely a matter of conjecture, and it blows my mind how so many people are happy to crucify them on what at this point still amounts to an accusation.


Now you really sound clueless.

They admitted to jobbing the system. How can anyone of sound mind, still think that 'what they did or did not do is up to conjecture'?


----------



## MonsterM (Aug 10, 2005)

RogueTDI said:


> Actually, what VW did or did not actually do, is still hugely a matter of conjecture, and* it blows my mind how so many people are happy to crucify them *on what at this point still amounts to an accusation.


Wow so many posters here seem to be very happy to see VW down.


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> I was just about to reply - what a moronic thing for even Corbic to say. 9 billion is a minuscule budget for what they do. And it was actually 7.89 billion for FY15, not 9.


Next year's EPA budget is looking like it will be about $18 BLn higher. 

>8^)
ER


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

rich! said:


> almost 3 years to the date.... awwwwwkward. Volkswagen’s U.S. Diesel Strategy: An Interview with Doug Skorupski – http://www.thedieseldriver.com/2012...el-strategy-an-interview-with-doug-skorupski/


From the article:



Doug Skorupski said:


> This is why I love reading what people say in online forums about their cars.


:laugh: Are you having a good week Doug?


----------



## Code Red! (Sep 22, 2011)

MonsterM said:


> Wow so many posters here seem to be very happy to see VW down.


scha·den·freu·de
ˈSHädənˌfroidə/

noun: Schadenfreude; noun: schadenfreude

pleasure derived by someone from another person's misfortune.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Peloton25 said:


> Next year's EPA budget is looking like it will be about $18 BLn higher.
> 
> >8^)
> ER


I should start browsing their job postings!


----------



## RogueTDI (Dec 12, 2002)

A&F said:


> Really? Even after VW admitted they have been cheating you think this is a political conspiracy?
> 
> 
> Look at it this way, if a Bank or investment group got caught breaking the law, not paying taxes, making illegal trades, whatever; would you be up in arms that they are getting fined?
> ...


I've spent hours looking at this now. I still see little more than accusations, conjecture as to what vw actually did. As far as I'm concerned, an AG "admitting" and capitulating to US administrative accusations is not the least bit remarkable. Typical, political, face saving response. That is, what else can they do but be contrite? We all know the Germans are push overs on this kind of thing.

I'm still interested in understanding what really occurred and why, and how this is different from exploiting a loophole, and how no other maker is doing similar things. I just think the whole thing is sensational and politically loaded. I'm not saying malfeasance may not have occurred.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Numbersix said:


> Methinks Shomegrown is under a very strict NDA.


I'm surprised we haven't been told to shut up yet.



BRealistic said:


> If everybody is tight lipped, then maybe this is an industry issue.


Based on the French and Italian responses, I am comfident there is some protectionism going on and it will be Friday before we know the full magnitude of the issue. I am 100% sure that there was some collusion on this and all manufacturers based in the EU are complicit. I give Opel a pass, as much as they would love to do it, GM is way too gun shy at this point to risk it. 136hp tells me that they throttled the hell out of that motor to get the emissions in compliance. It should be closer to 170.



MCTB said:


> The diesel car is hugely under fire now, not just VW. Inspections across multiple makes now.


I've been saying that since my first post.



Turbio! said:


> Wow, that was quick. Usually the Germans drag their feet like toddlers past bedtime on **** like this.


You're telling me. I still want to be the one to personally fire Theobald. I'm still pissed at him.



skramer said:


> I've always thought car companies did this...I'm certain if you start testing the latest gDI setups in a similar fashion, you would find they need the same expensive emission systems as a TDI


This is a very valid point. The only reasonably popular GDI engines are from VW and Honda, I think? It bears repeating that direct injection in general could be under fire here. 

This could lead to the final downfall of internal combustion.


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

Would love to see this be the nail in diesel's coffin.


----------



## Egz (May 30, 2002)

MonsterM said:


> Wow so many posters here seem to be very happy to see VW down.


About as many who rabidly defend VW, even after they admitted they were cheating.

The majority of us are here for the ride. Haven't had an automotive scandal on this scale in a while.


----------



## RogueTDI (Dec 12, 2002)

Peloton25 said:


> This is elephant dung. :laugh:
> 
> You are truly ignorant if you think VW would be bending over like this with apologies and allowing their stock to lose over 30% of its value in a two day period if their cars were actually as clean as they should be.
> 
> ...


How clean "should" any car be? Because I assure you virtually every vehicle on the road releases quite a bit more real world emissions per mile than an EPA would suggest.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

Turbio! said:


> But if they needed to gimp the software to pass the EPA test, it wasn't capable of passing the EPA test to begin with, regardless of its performance at full load.


I get that. However, as a scientist, you should want an apples to apples comparison.


----------



## MagnetoReluctance (Aug 14, 2003)

A&F said:


> Gutted? They have a $9 billion budget.


You are kidding yourself if you think $9 billion can effectively cover the mission the EPA has been tasked with.

They're on their 5th year of budget cuts (20% reduction in funding since Republicans took control of the House), staffed at the lowest levels in over 25 years. Adjusted for inflation, they are operating on similarly sized budget to what they had in the 1980s. They're reducing inspection rates by as much as 50%. 

Congress is looking to reduce their budget by 9% next fiscal year.

All this while the scope of their mission has gotten larger, and the type of monitoring they perform is even more complex.


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 7, 1999)

atomicalex said:


> This is a very valid point. The only reasonably popular GDI engines are from VW and Honda, I think? It bears repeating that direct injection in general could be under fire here.


THAT is what has me worried beyond the TDI situation is that this will get expanded into the GDI motors... no sign of that right now, but geezus.. I hope not.


----------



## RacingManiac (Mar 19, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> THAT is what has me worried beyond the TDI situation is that this will get expanded into the GDI motors... no sign of that right now, but geezus.. I hope not.


Pretty sure new EU requirement will already force OEM to run more emission control for future GDI engine also. The port/direct injection that VAG car has in EU is already part of it. Next step will probably be particulate filter...

Would be an interesting investigation to see, if they were to log the duty cycle of the port injectors under standard EU test vs real world if it fires more or less...because that'll affect PM count IIRC....


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)




----------



## RogueTDI (Dec 12, 2002)

rbloedow said:


> What a fscking stupid rant. The EPA doesn't have the means to perform widespread testing across all makes - hell , they practically have to ask automakers to police themselves when it comes to mileage standards. Republicans and all of the so called "fiscal conservatives" in Congress have gutted the budgets of these agencies to the point where they can't afford to.
> 
> How can you blame them for that?


Here is a tip. Republicans and Democrats are both full of crap. It is a false dichotomy. Let it go. Neither are on our side.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

MonsterM said:


> The overall effect of this on global pollution will be minimal, if non-existent. .


You could say this about just about any CAA violation. Overall effects are in aggregate, not attributable to any one point source. That doesn't get individual point sources off the hook when they violate the law, then bull**** EPA about it for a few years, then finally decide to eat a gun in their bunker when they can't deny the tanks are rolling in anymore.


----------



## Basil Fawlty (Sep 7, 2003)

I read Pope Francis is scheduled to visit the US today and it made me wonder if Vatican City will be subject to the recall? Popemobile = Passat 3.0 TDI


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

RogueTDI said:


> Here is a tip. Republicans and Democrats are both full of crap. It is a false dichotomy. Let it go. Neither are on our side.


The most accurate thing I've read today. ^


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

RogueTDI said:


> How clean "should" any car be? Because I assure you virtually every vehicle on the road releases quite a bit more real world emissions per mile than an EPA would suggest.


Well, clean enough to pass the test without actually cheating would be a start. 

You're bias is clouding your judgement on this. Very apropos screenname you have chosen though - seems rogue TDIs were the name of the game and now the game is up. 

>8^)
ER


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

RogueTDI said:


> Actually, what VW did or did not actually do, is still hugely a matter of conjecture, and it blows my mind how so many people are happy to crucify them on what at this point still amounts to an accusation.


Dude, I realize this is tough for you, but you really need to take a deep breath here. VW admited to it. Winterkorn is stepping down. This is every bit as bad as you don't want to believe it is. There is no way to minimize or shift the blame. It sucks, because I know you're really committed to diesel and love your car, but VW screwed a whole poundful of pooches here.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Basil Fawlty said:


> I read Pope Francis is scheduled to visit the US today and it made me wonder if Vatican City will be subject to the recall? Popemobile = Passat 3.0 TDI


He'll be in DC, to boot! That's why the entire Mall is being shut down on Wednesday, to counter all of the emissions from his single vehicle.


----------



## RogueTDI (Dec 12, 2002)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Now you really sound clueless.
> 
> They admitted to jobbing the system. How can anyone of sound mind, still think that 'what they did or did not do is up to conjecture'?


Not clueless at all. Just not a gullible sheep happy to take my daily meds. 

If you would please link or post a quote as to exactly what they "admitted" to. Yes I've heard of this "admission" and unless VAG released a detailed statement, it is still a matter of conjecture as to precisely what occurred. Is that not blindingly obvious to you? Why not?


----------



## ATL_Av8r (Oct 17, 2002)

MonsterM said:


> Wow so many posters here seem to be very happy to see VW down.


Exact same thing happened when the Ford Explorer "exploding tires" thing occurred.

Exact same thing happened when the Toyota "stuck gas pedal" occurred.

This really is no different TCL-response-wise.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

RogueTDI said:


> Not clueless at all. Just not a gullible sheep happy to take my daily meds.
> 
> If you would please link or post a quote as to exactly what they "admitted" to. Yes I've heard of this "admission" and unless VAG released a detailed statement, it is still a matter of conjecture as to precisely what occurred. Is that not blindingly obvious to you? Why not?


Are you intentionally trying to take the troll crown of the thread?

My god.


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

Peloton25 said:


> Next year's EPA budget is looking like it will be about $18 BLn higher.
> 
> >8^)
> ER


Pretty sure that by statute the fine would go directly into the treasury, like all other federal fines, and EPA's budget would still come through appropriations like normal.


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> He'll be in DC, to boot! That's why the entire Mall is being shut down on Wednesday, to counter all of the emissions from his single vehicle.


I thought it was to counter all the hot air being blown by Republicans who are pissed at him about Cuba?


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Ross1013 said:


> I thought it was to counter all the hot air being blown by Republicans who are pissed at him about Cuba?


A little of that, too.


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> He'll be in DC, to boot! That's why the entire Mall is being shut down on Wednesday, to counter all of the emissions from his single vehicle.


DC before and after the Pope's Passat arrived:



:laugh:


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

RogueTDI said:


> Not clueless at all. Just not a gullible sheep happy to take my daily meds.
> 
> If you would please link or post a quote as to exactly what they "admitted" to. Yes I've heard of this "admission" and unless VAG released a detailed statement, it is still a matter of conjecture as to precisely what occurred. Is that not blindingly obvious to you? Why not?


Because we're not panic-stricken TDI obsessives emitting 40 times the legal limit of self-serving denial?


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

RogueTDI said:


> Not clueless at all. Just not a gullible sheep happy to take my daily meds.
> *
> If you would please link or post a quote as to exactly what they "admitted" to.* Yes I've heard of this "admission" and unless VAG released a detailed statement, it is still a matter of conjecture as to precisely what occurred. Is that not blindingly obvious to you? Why not?


How's this ?

http://www.volkswagenag.com/content...s/2015/09/statement_ceo_of_volkswagen_ag.html



> Statement of Prof. Dr. Martin Winterkorn, CEO of Volkswagen AG:
> 
> The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and the California Air Resources Board (EPA and CARB) revealed their findings that while testing diesel cars of the Volkswagen Group they have detected manipulations that violate American environmental standards.
> 
> ...


----------



## RogueTDI (Dec 12, 2002)

Lol. This Pope mobile stuff is cracking me up.

I'm fine on the implications, although I have every intention of not reflashing isht.

Seriously, to what extent VW actually "cheated" is still yet to be revealed. All politics until then. Have fun shooting yourselves in the foot.


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

RogueTDI said:


> If you would please link or post a quote as to exactly what they "admitted" to. Yes I've heard of this "admission" and unless VAG released a detailed statement, it is still a matter of conjecture as to precisely what occurred. Is that not blindingly obvious to you? Why not?


You claim to have spent hours yet you haven't even grasped the basics of the situation? :facepalm:

Continue with your crusade of denial. You've rapidly become Baghdad Bob the Iraqi Information Minister on this topic. :screwy:

>8^)
ER


----------



## RogueTDI (Dec 12, 2002)

Turbio! said:


> Because we're not panic-stricken TDI obsessives emitting 40 times the legal limit of self-serving denial?


Please Turbio. What legitimate scientific field involves posting all day on VWVortex?


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

mhjett said:


> Pretty sure that by statute the fine would go directly into the treasury, like all other federal fines, and EPA's budget would still come through appropriations like normal.


Pretty sure I put one of these  at the end of my post implying a dose of sarcasm included. 

Factually, yes you are correct, but being correct doesn't always make for good humor which was my intent. :laugh:

>8^)
ER


----------



## rawk (Jul 29, 2000)

RogueTDI said:


> Please Turbio. What legitimate scientific field involves posting all day on VWVortex?


Bro. I'm a big TDI fan. I had one, and loved it. It's a shame you are blinded by your loyalty. You are making a complete fool of yourself at this point.


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

RogueTDI said:


> Please Turbio. What legitimate scientific field involves posting all day on VWVortex?


When even Peloton25 is telling you you're wrong, it's time to stop posting.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

RogueTDI said:


> I've spent hours looking at this now. I still see little more than accusations, conjecture as to what vw actually did. As far as I'm concerned, an AG "admitting" and capitulating to US administrative accusations is not the least bit remarkable. Typical, political, face saving response. That is, what else can they do but be contrite? We all know the Germans are push overs on this kind of thing.
> 
> I'm still interested in understanding what really occurred and why, and how this is different from exploiting a loophole, and how no other maker is doing similar things. I just think the whole thing is sensational and politically loaded. I'm not saying malfeasance may not have occurred.


You haven't spent more than 10 minutes "looking at this" if you don't see the facts and understand the issue.


VW made engines that pollute more than the law allows.
VW made their software recognize when the test was being performed, and therefore operate the engine in a way that passed the test. They claimed this was how clean it was ALL THE TIME.
When the engine was NOT being tested, it polluted way more than allowed. 
This is FRAUD. It was unfair to the other manufacturers who do actually follow the law, and it also allowed them to qualify the vehicles for tax credits that they did NOT deserve (since they were NOT actually meeting the standard as claimed.
FRAUD has penalties, in this case up to $37,500 per infringing car sold. THEY KNEW THE LAW BEFORE THEY BROKE IT. It's not a number pulled out of thin air.
VW ADMITTED that this is true. This will cost them money, stock value, sales, reputation, and more. Admitting this scale of wrongdoing is NOT political, nor face-saving. 
Being contrite is irrelevant. Contrite or not, the penalties are still there for the law that they broke. They will pay. 
It's only sensational because of the scale of it. It's not 'politically loaded', except to people who see conspiracies everywhere. 
VW will have to pay a fine for all infringing vehicles they sold new, and/or offer a buyback to current owners.





RogueTDI said:


> Here is a tip. Republicans and Democrats are both full of crap. It is a false dichotomy. Let it go. Neither are on our side.


Yet another thing you are completely wrong about, but this isn't the thread for it.


----------



## RogueTDI (Dec 12, 2002)

Smigelski said:


> How's this ?
> 
> http://www.volkswagenag.com/content...s/2015/09/statement_ceo_of_volkswagen_ag.html


Thanks. An admission of broken trust, which is very broad. Not if any specific wrong doing. Is that where it's at?


----------



## RogueTDI (Dec 12, 2002)

rawk said:


> Bro. I'm a big TDI fan. I had one, and loved it. It's a shame you are blinded by your loyalty. You are making a complete fool of yourself at this point.


Not in the least. No fool. Not blinded. I'm one of the few in here that can see apparently.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Peloton25 said:


> Latest headline - Wintekorn out. Replaced by Matthias Mueller from Porsche.
> 
> If true, that shoe dropped faster than I expected.
> 
> ...


So, Winterkorn has already had his winker torn?


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

RogueTDI said:


> Not in the least. No fool. Not blinded. I'm one of the few in here that can see apparently.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

RogueTDI said:


> Not clueless at all. Just not a gullible sheep happy to take my daily meds.
> 
> If you would please link or post a quote as to exactly what they "admitted" to. Yes I've heard of this "admission" and unless VAG released a detailed statement, it is still a matter of conjecture as to precisely what occurred. Is that not blindingly obvious to you? Why not?


hurr durr










https://twitter.com/Breakingviews/status/646299939073560577


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

RogueTDI said:


> Thanks. An admission of broken trust, which is very broad. Not if any specific wrong doing. Is that where it's at?


This part?

t while testing diesel cars of the Volkswagen Group they have detected manipulations that violate American environmental standards.


keep pedaling, dude. You'll get there soon enough


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 7, 1999)

RogueTDI said:


> Thanks. An admission of broken trust, which is very broad. Not if any specific wrong doing. Is that where it's at?



Little warning here... people have quoted and requoted what already has been said. If you're not going to read or understand that and try to derail this thread based off of that.. suggestion.. don't. That applies to anyone else as well who wants to drag this thread into the mud. Just don't. 

So far this has been civil and we'd like to keep it that way.

Carry on...


----------



## rawk (Jul 29, 2000)

RogueTDI said:


> Not in the least. No fool. Not blinded. I'm one of the few in here that can see apparently.


That must be some strong weed! :laugh:


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

RogueTDI said:


> Not in the least. No fool. Not blinded. I'm one of the few in here that can see apparently.


...waits for "sheeple" comment in 3...2...1...


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

BRealistic said:


> For VW's sake, they should hope it's actually the tip of the iceberg.
> If it comes out that other manufacturers are doing something similar with their diesels,. then it becomes an industry issues instead of just a VW issue.
> 
> Have any other manufacturers come out and said anything about this yet- even just social media?
> ...


Well, German media/rumor is now reporting that the emissions component were delivered by Robert Bosch A.G., but Bosch says they made these according to VW specs and software and were just following orders. Also, ALL elevenish million models with the EA189 have that cheat built in. Also, according to some reports, Winterkorn is out, and according to others, VW and Winterkorn are saying, nah, he's not.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Post edited due to faulty logic :facepalm:

The defeat device is not the program that operates during the EPA test cycle but rather the program that increases the emissions during normal driving. So the conditions are normal driving and are not covered by the EPA test procedure  ... I though I was on to something but yeah, VW is screwed :vampire:


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Peloton25 said:


> Then read this a couple of times paying close attention to the fact that the group who initially made this discovery and brought it to the EPA & CARB's attention had initially set out to PROVE THE CARS WERE CLEAN!


Even David can't set him straight. Give up!


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 7, 1999)

atomicalex said:


> Even David can't set him straight. Give up!


Oh I have ways....  

Please ignore the trolling if you all could. Thanks.


----------



## Quinn1.8t (Oct 8, 2006)

JitteryJoe said:


> Here is all the VW's lawyer needs to say:
> 
> You letter is incorrect, the programming you are referring to is not a Defeat Device because it does not reduce the effectiveness of emissions controls under conditions which may reasonably be expected to be encountered in normal vehicle operation and use. The programming only activates when the car is being put on a Dyno which is not normal operation and use. Furthermore, the conditions under which the device activates are substantially covered under the Federal Emissions test procedure.


Well wrap it up here folks, Joe just figured this one out for VW.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Wow. This is really hard to keep up with. 

By "this" I mean both the facts of the situation and the speed of this thread. 



...And the trolling/blindness, of course.


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

JitteryJoe said:


> Agreed 100%, at first I couldn't believe that VW would be so stupid as to circumvent the EPA test cycle and that they should be fined but the more details that come out the more skeptical I am. The EPA test cycle is notorious for not matching real world driving situations. No two tests are ever the same and to try to compare WVU's test to the EPA one and claiming that the TDI is 10-40x over the NOX limit. Here are my issues with this:
> 
> 1) WVU releases a study saying that the TDI put out too much NOX in real world testing. Whoop-dee-do, it is not comparable to the EPA test and 9-10 Diesel engines tested in Europe were over the limit also (VW wasn't even the worse). Different drivers produce different results the only real comparison is the EPA test because it is a controlled environment. Until the car is tested without the special programming any pollution claims are highly inflammatory.
> 
> ...












http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/b...ndal.html?sid=706F6C69746963616C6E657773&_r=0


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

criminal probe is a go...

but look at the positives:

No one is tailgating me due to a TDI badge
Suddenly, the kid drop off at school has a clear path


----------



## RogueTDI (Dec 12, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> Little warning here... people have quoted and requoted what already has been said. If you're not going to read or understand that and try to derail this thread based off of that.. suggestion.. don't. That applies to anyone else as well who wants to drag this thread into the mud. Just don't.
> 
> So far this has been civil and we'd like to keep it that way.
> 
> Carry on...



David,

Not trolling. Not dragging into mud. Trying to look past the sensation and politics, for the real, actual wrong doing.


----------



## Cole Orlling (Mar 18, 2015)

RogueTDI said:


> David,
> 
> Not trolling. Not dragging into mud. Trying to look past the sensation and politics, for the real, actual wrong doing.




You aren't looking very hard.



Kar98 said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/b...ndal.html?sid=706F6C69746963616C6E657773&_r=0



"FRANKFURT — The scope of Volkswagen’s diesel scandal broadened on Tuesday, when the company said that 11 million of its diesel cars worldwide were equipped with the same software that was used to cheat on emissions tests in the United States."

Let me guess - that's just more political conjecture though, right?


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

So... as a TDI owner (bought new last year)... do I demand my TTRS now or later? 

I'd settle for a straight trade to a new sportwagon... with the 1.8T


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

MonsterM said:


> The overall effect of this on global pollution will be minimal, if non-existent. I am not aware of anyone being injured as a result of this. Like I said, VAG should pay heavy fines for it and they will. From what I am reading now about this situation, the extent of the punishment is going to be massive and will result in a lot of middle class workers/suppliers to lose their job/business as a result just so the big EPA can flex its muscles.


Then they should not have broken the law by creating a complicated systems bypass. If it was innocent, maybe I would agree. They ADMITTED to creating a back door system. 

People blaming the EPA for this crack me up. It is not the EPA or the government. *It is VW corporate. VW that screwed people.*


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

Peloton25 said:


> Pretty sure I put one of these  at the end of my post implying a dose of sarcasm included.
> 
> Factually, yes you are correct, but being correct doesn't always make for good humor which was my intent. :laugh:
> 
> ...


Understood. But as RogueTDI is amply demonstrating, being incorrect does not always make for good humor either.


----------



## crd4me (Sep 17, 2015)

Maybe it will be the end of VW in NA ... A bit like what happened to Renault in the late 80's


----------



## sweatyworker (May 4, 2005)

RogueTDI said:


> I've spent hours looking at this now. I still see little more than accusations, conjecture as to what vw actually did.



Straight from the EPA website front page



> In September, after EPA and CARB demanded an explanation for the identified emission problems, *Volkswagen admitted that the cars contained defeat devices.*


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

MCTB said:


> Then they should not have broken the law by creating a complicated systems bypass. If it was innocent, maybe I would agree. They ADMITTED to creating a back door system.
> 
> People blaming the EPA for this crack me up. It is not the EPA or the government. *It is VW corporate. VW that screwed people.*


But if the EPA hadn't created an emissions law, VW never would've had to break it!!111


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

I'm just now getting into this. My dad has a '11 A3 TDI and my mom has a '13 Passat TDI. My dad even has a "TDI Clean Burning Diesel" sticker on the back. He LOVES that car. Ugh.............. Not good. 

So basically, my dad has been rolling coal and had no idea? :laugh:


----------



## LiGuangming1981 (Jun 22, 2016)

Village Idiot™ said:


> Dun dun duuunnnnnnnn!
> 
> And the plot thickens.
> 
> ...


China's emission standards have been tightened up a lot in recent years. 

This basically doesn't even effect China anyway, considering that the number of diesel powered passenger vehicles sold in this country is very close to zero. I've lived in China for 8 years and I think in all that time I've seen less than 5 VW TDI cars (all of them Passat taxis) and no diesel passenger cars from any other manufacturer.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)




----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

RogueTDI said:


> David,
> 
> Not trolling. Not dragging into mud. Trying to look past the sensation and politics, for the real, actual wrong doing.


Why don't you dial it back a bit then and give it a week or two if you're so unconvinced of their wrongdoing?

This isn't a situation where VW will simply cut a check and the problem will go away. They're going to have to explain themselves in great detail as to how and why they did what they did and thought they could get away with this. Through that process you are bound to get the answers you are begging for now. 

We've already seen the situation grow in scope from ~500,000 vehicles sold in North America to now some 11 million worldwide. You are clearly on the wrong side of the argument at this point and your position does not look to be improving. 

>8^)
ER


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Who knew back then, I was being environmentally-sensitive?


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

RogueTDI said:


> Just went to epa.gov. Saw nothing of the sort. Besides, verbiage according to EPA.


Oh you wanna go to the source of the source?

http://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_PEMS-study_diesel-cars_20141010.pdf (PDF)

These people set out to prove that TDIs are clean diesels. Instead, they discovered the opposite.


----------



## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

crd4me said:


> Maybe it will be the end of VW in NA ... A bit like what happened to Renault in the late 80's


What in the world will I buy if the EPA destroys VWAG?


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Kar98 said:


> Oh you wanna go to the source of the source?
> 
> http://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_PEMS-study_diesel-cars_20141010.pdf (PDF)
> 
> These people set out to prove that TDIs are clean diesels. Instead, they discovered the opposite.


Take the 'l' off the end of your URL.


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Take the 'l' off the end of your URL.


Where TF did that come from?


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Kar98 said:


> Where TF did that come from?


The TDI folks are trying to sabotage your URL :laugh:


----------



## ATL_Av8r (Oct 17, 2002)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Who knew back then, I was being environmentally-sensitive?


A 3500 dually with a 30' triple-axle trailer to tow a little econobox is "environmentally-sensitive"?


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> The TDI folks are trying to sabotage your URL :laugh:


Oh come on, it's not like other companies aren't doing the same! :what:


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

ATL_Av8r said:


> A 3500 dually with a 30' triple-axle trailer to tow a little econobox is "environmentally-sensitive"?


According to the EPA, yes :laugh:


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> But if the EPA hadn't created an emissions law, VW never would've had to break it!!111


Thanks Oba...err...Dick


----------



## intercedeGLI (Sep 8, 2002)

ATL_Av8r said:


> A 3500 dually with a 30' triple-axle trailer to tow a little econobox is "environmentally-sensitive"?


Isn't there also an Equinox in front of it?


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

intercedeGLI said:


> Isn't there also an Equinox in front of it?


Good eye.

If I remember, the front end was all mangled. I would have made off better financially if mine was, too.


----------



## ATL_Av8r (Oct 17, 2002)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> According to the EPA, yes :laugh:


*I'll allow it Ken Jeong meme*


----------



## ATL_Av8r (Oct 17, 2002)

intercedeGLI said:


> Isn't there also an Equinox in front of it?


Holy crap....I didn't even see that :laugh:


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/22/news/vw-recall-diesel/index.html


Did he admit exactly how VW lied?

Nope. 

He is clearly just trying to avoid the backlash of stupid ignorant liberals by saying a public sorry. I'm sure an investigation will prove the air coming out of TDI models is 100x cleaner than a Prius. This is nothing but a vain attempt by the dictator Obama to force unreliable hybrids down our throats and support his buddies in the big oil industry who all know diesels are the only true path to a sustainable future.





On a scale of 1 to 10 how do you rate my fanboyism?


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

2.0T_Convert said:


> On a scale of 1 to 10 how do you rate my fanboyism?


Your grammar wasn't poor enough for it to register on the scale.


----------



## ATL_Av8r (Oct 17, 2002)

2.0T_Convert said:


> He is clearly just trying to avoid the backlash of stupid ignorant liberals by saying a public sorry. I'm sure an investigation will prove the air coming out of TDI models is 100x cleaner than a Prius. This is nothing but a vain attempt by the dictator Obama to force unreliable hybrids down our throats and support his buddies in the big oil industry who all know diesels are the only true path to a sustainable future.


This is awesome :laugh:


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Did he admit exactly how VW lied?
> 
> Nope.
> 
> ...


9/10

I got mad.

Near flawless fanboy skills.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Did he admit exactly how VW lied?
> 
> Nope.
> 
> ...


10/10. I thought it was RogueTDI. Had to double check. Slow clap worthy.


----------



## RogueTDI (Dec 12, 2002)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Can I post this, mods, or are you going to delete it for no reason again?
> 
> This is what the CEO of Volkswagen actually said:
> 
> ...




Thank you for posting that.

I hadn't seen that quote. I may have missed it. However, that is head of VW USA, not CEO of VWAG.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

RogueTDI said:


> Thank you for posting that.
> 
> I hadn't seen that quote. I may have missed it. However, that is head of VW USA, not CEO of VWAG.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Did he admit exactly how VW lied?
> 
> Nope.
> 
> ...


Tin foil hatism=a solid 7.5
Fanboyism=a tepid 3.0 due to username


----------



## PrimaVW (Dec 22, 2005)

If you haven't bought a few VLKAY stocks... Boy are you gonna be sorry


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Video post on VW's website by Winterkorn in 25 minutes.

opcorn:


----------



## Seabird (Feb 8, 2002)

Kar98 said:


> Well, German media/rumor is now reporting that the emissions component were delivered by Robert Bosch A.G., but Bosch says they made these according to VW specs and software and were just following orders.


Sooooo... A bunch of Germans saying that they didn't do anything wrong because they were "just following orders". Yeah, that's a good defense. :facepalm::laugh:


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

RogueTDI said:


> Thank you for posting that.
> 
> I hadn't seen that quote. I may have missed it. However, that is head of VW USA, not CEO of VWAG.














PrimaVW said:


> If you haven't bought a few VLKAY stocks... Boy are you gonna be sorry


The plunge has not hit bottom yet.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Did he admit exactly how VW lied?
> 
> Nope.
> 
> ...


Slowclap.gif


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

MCTB said:


> The plunge has not hit bottom yet.


I believe the technical term for what VLKAY stock is doing is a "dead cat bounce."

:laugh:

Smart money will buy later this week, maybe next Monday AM.


----------



## ATL_Av8r (Oct 17, 2002)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Video post on VW's website by Winterkorn in 25 minutes.
> 
> opcorn:


Over/under on a full-on Bud Dwyer impression?


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

http://www.volkswagenag.com/content/vwcorp/content/de/homepage.html


----------



## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

11 million cars!

http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/22/news/vw-recall-diesel/index.html


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Video post on VW's website by Winterkorn in 25 minutes.
> 
> opcorn:


That should prove to be interesting.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

ATL_Av8r said:


> Over/under on a full-on Bud Dwyer impression?


I shouldn't have laughed at this, but I did. 

:laugh:


----------



## pasateando (Mar 19, 2002)

i apologize if this was already posted:

https://www.volkswagen-media-servic...ec13158edd433c6630f5ac445da?p_p_auth=Wq0DnMkA


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> I shouldn't have laughed at this, but I did.
> 
> :laugh:


Me too. 😀


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

atomicalex said:


> http://www.volkswagenag.com/content/vwcorp/content/de/homepage.html


Yeah, that's great and all, but my high school and college German doesn't help me much with that! :laugh: :beer:


----------



## Cousin Eddie (Dec 17, 2005)

Turbio! said:


> but VW screwed a whole poundful of pooches here.


See BRealistic, I'm not the only one who uses that saying!


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Air and water do mix said:


> Yeah, that's great and all, but my high school and college German doesn't help me much with that! :laugh: :beer:


There is a little English thing on the left. Click it.


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

atomicalex said:


> http://www.volkswagenag.com/content/vwcorp/content/de/homepage.html


Der Wolf's Den, zweiundzwanzigster September:

VW pursues the investigation of irregularities of a software used with diesel engines. Cars currently offered in the E.U. with diesel EU 6 norm engines fulfill all legal requirements and environmental standards. The software... wait, there's a switch to English button... :banghead:

Volkswagen is working at full speed to clarify irregularities concerning a particular software used in diesel engines. New vehicles from the Volkswagen Group with EU 6 diesel engines currently available in the European Union comply with legal requirements and environmental standards. The software in question does not affect handling, consumption or emissions. This gives clarity to customers and dealers.

Further internal investigations conducted to date have established that the relevant engine management software is also installed in other Volkswagen Group vehicles with diesel engines. For the majority of these engines the software does not have any effect.

Discrepancies relate to vehicles with Type EA 189 engines, involving some eleven million vehicles worldwide. A noticeable deviation between bench test results and actual road use was established solely for this type of engine. Volkswagen is working intensely to eliminate these deviations through technical measures. The company is therefore in contact with the relevant authorities and the German Federal Motor Transport Authority (KBA – Kraftfahrtbundesamt).

To cover the necessary service measures and other efforts to win back the trust of our customers, Volkswagen plans to set aside a provision of some 6.5 billion EUR recognized in the profit and loss statement in the third quarter of the current fiscal year. Due to the ongoing investigations the amounts estimated may be subject to revaluation. Earnings targets for the Group for 2015 will be adjusted accordingly.

Volkswagen does not tolerate any kind of violation of laws whatsoever. It is and remains the top priority of the Board of Management to win back lost trust and to avert damage to our customers. The Group will inform the public on the further progress of the investigations constantly and transparently.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Seabird said:


> Sooooo... A bunch of Germans saying that they didn't do anything wrong because they were "just following orders". Yeah, that's a good defense. :facepalm::laugh:


Doesn't give them the right to try and gas us.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

Ross1013 said:


> When even Peloton25 is telling you you're wrong, it's time to stop posting.


Bravo, sir. Bravo.


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

"Irregularities."


----------



## Seabird (Feb 8, 2002)

Silly_me said:


> Doesn't give them the right to try and gas us.


Oh, damn... :laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Vague wording is still very vague. VW management is walking the line very carefully here and not admitting exactly how this engine management software cheat came to be.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Video statement:

https://www.volkswagen-media-servic...ec13158edd433c6630f5ac445da?p_p_auth=Bfm3GcAZ


----------



## SGI (Oct 29, 2002)

*Next Probe - Hellcat powered cars - Use of Black Key as emission cheating device.*

This really opens a can of worm... next thing you know they will Probe those Hellcat powered cars - By using Black Key (instead of the Red Key) as emission cheating device. The whole Car industry will suffer :banghead:


----------



## Cousin Eddie (Dec 17, 2005)

ATL_Av8r said:


> Over/under on a full-on Bud Dwyer impression?


:laugh:

I ****ing love you. Never change.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

mhjett said:


> I believe the technical term for what VLKAY stock is doing is a "dead cat bounce."
> 
> :laugh:
> 
> Smart money will buy later this week, maybe next Monday AM.


fwiw - '09 $75 -> 15 took a year to consolidate. already had technical damage back in july... more pain.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

SGI said:


> This really opens a can of worm... next thing you know they will Probe those Hellcat powered cars - By using Black Key (instead of the Red Key) as emission cheating device. The whole Car industry will suffer :banghead:


----------



## SGI (Oct 29, 2002)

Are there actual numbers (I.e. NOx emission in mg/ml and at what RPM/speed(s) in the "road test" vs the EPA rating? vs other big gasoline engines road test vs its EPA ratings?) I haven't seen a single number posted except "as much as" 40x the emission level.


----------



## Qwan3356 (Feb 9, 2012)

This is an interesting show. opcorn:


----------



## wolfcastle (Jul 28, 2006)

SGI said:


> This really opens a can of worm... next thing you know they will Probe those Hellcat powered cars - By using Black Key (instead of the Red Key) as emission cheating device. The whole Car industry will suffer :banghead:


I wouldn't go assuming anything just yet about other car makers and vehicles like the hellcat.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

A lot of people trying to watch that video would be an understatement, I guess. I can't get it to load.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

SGI said:


> Are there actual numbers (I.e. NOx emission in mg/ml and at what RPM/speed(s) in the "road test" vs the EPA rating? vs other big gasoline engines road test vs its EPA ratings?) I haven't seen a single number posted except "as much as" 40x the emission level.


That is because the 3rd party organizations were the ones who caught this. There will be no verifiable numbers until the EPA does the testing themselves and whats the point of doing that if the actual company already admitted they cheated?


----------



## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> A lot of people trying to watch that video would be an understatement, I guess. I can't get it to load.


Faulty VW electronics


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

SGI said:


> Are there actual numbers (I.e. NOx emission in mg/ml and at what RPM/speed(s) in the "road test" vs the EPA rating? vs other big gasoline engines road test vs its EPA ratings?) I haven't seen a single number posted except "as much as" 40x the emission level.





MCTB said:


> That is because the 3rd party organizations were the ones who caught this. There will be no verifiable numbers until the EPA does the testing themselves and whats the point of doing that if the actual company already admitted they cheated?


Here's the report from that third party group who caught the discrepancy. It was posted a couple pages back.

http://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_PEMS-study_diesel-cars_20141010.pdf


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

cabzilla said:


> Faulty VW electronics


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> A lot of people trying to watch that video would be an understatement, I guess. I can't get it to load.


The youtube version is watchable at the moment:


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> Doesn't give them the right to try and gas us.


You are sooooo going to hell. :laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## kal-el21 (Feb 2, 2012)

I no longer feel so bad about trying to conceal an aftermarket tune for a few years under warranty.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Smigelski said:


> Here's the report from that third party group who caught the discrepancy. It was posted a couple pages back.
> 
> http://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_PEMS-study_diesel-cars_20141010.pdf


Yeah, I saw it through the BBC. 



When someone is done watching the video, post up what was/ was not said. Cannot watch it at work.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> The youtube version is watchable at the moment:


Oh, dude. That's _perfect_. :laugh:




Now I gotta go home and watch Spaceballs. Again. :thumbup:

That movie has the greatest line in all of cinematic history: "F---! Even in the future nothing works!" :laugh:

The second greatest? "I see your Schwartz is as big as mine."


----------



## TnTNYC (Aug 1, 2012)

In for translation / script of Winterkorn's remarks. No sprechen sie deutsche.


----------



## dos (Jul 5, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> The youtube version is watchable at the moment:


Never change Silly_me. You are a beautiful snowflake. I just busted out laughing in the office.


----------



## ATL_Av8r (Oct 17, 2002)

Air and water do mix said:


> Oh, dude. That's _perfect_. :laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Now you see that evil will always triumph. Because good is dumb."


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Silly_me said:


> The youtube version is watchable at the moment:












Maybe this time it won't get deleted.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

ATL_Av8r said:


> "Now you see that evil will always triumph. Because good is dumb."


So what we're saying is that Rick Moranis got all of the good lines. Got it.

This included "Ludicrous Speed!" quickly followed by "don't ever show that again". :laugh:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

mhjett said:


> I believe the technical term for what VLKAY stock is doing is a "dead cat bounce."
> 
> :laugh:
> 
> Smart money will buy later this week, maybe next Monday AM.


A dead cat bounce is when a company's stock goes up in price in the midst of a hard fall. What's going on right now falls under the heading of "never try to catch a falling knife."


----------



## BostonB6 (Nov 16, 2005)

I'm still waiting for this scandal to be somehow linked to the New England Patriots.


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Video statement:
> 
> https://www.volkswagen-media-servic...ec13158edd433c6630f5ac445da?p_p_auth=Bfm3GcAZ


TL;DW: I'm sorry, we're gonna get to the bottom of this, our 600,000 employees don't deserve to be ALL suspects in this, and you'll pry my office chair from my cold, dead arse cheeks.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Kar98 said:


> TL;DW: I'm sorry, we're gonna get to the bottom of this, our 600,000 employees don't deserve to be ALL suspects in this, and *you'll pry my office chair from my cold, dead arse cheeks*.


:laugh:


----------



## ATL_Av8r (Oct 17, 2002)

Air and water do mix said:


> So what we're saying is that Rick Moranis got all of the good lines. Got it.
> 
> This included "Ludicrous Speed!" quickly followed by "don't ever show that again". :laugh:


No no no...I didn't mean to imply that at all. 

"God willing, we all meet again in Spaceballs 2: The Search For More Money" 

And of course

"Oh ****....there goes the planet"


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

"She's gone from suck to blow!"

_*That*_ was the best line in the movie.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Looks really confident.


----------



## cary67 (May 19, 2003)

*Class Action*

For those of you stating that VW isn't going to be found liable for damages to the owners/purchasers of these vehicles, here is some interesting reading. This firm doesn't f around. VW is in a whole heap of trouble, having violated dozens of fraud statutes. I own three of these vehicles - all affected by this issue. The second and third car were purchased on the experience of the first - super high MPG and super reliable. Anyone who bought these cars was absolutely defrauded by Volkswagen and has a pretty solid cause of action against them - especially in light of VW's admission of guilt.

http://www.weo1.com/tpn/c/C517/docs/PlComplaint.pdf

For what it's worth - and this is only anecdotal - here is something to think about: my 2015 Passat has not been patched and I routinely exceed 60mpg on my commute to work if I keep it at 65. My wife just purchased a 2015 Golf Sportwagen two weeks ago. I did not test drive it before she bought it. Now that I have driven it - it feels like a wet noodle compared to my Passat and last weekend I made that same commute and could barely pull 40 mpg. I don't know for sure, but I would bet that the Sportwagen is already patched.

In my opinion, it is extremely unlikely that VW took this kind of risk is the patch is going to have a "neglible" impact on performance and mileage. My guess is that it will be quite significant. Also, when purchasing these cars, I was told by dealers repeatedly that the premium price for TDI models was because VW was aware of the fuel savings its customers are achieving and they want to take a piece of that in the list price of the car. Assuming that is in any way accurate - VW will lose the class action lawsuits that are coming....big time.

Frankly, a buy back is appropriate. Short of that, the only thing I'm going to be satisfied with is about $5,000 a car - comprised of the price difference that they charged in the first place and also the 1/3 reduction in gas mileage that I am going to have to live with as long as I own the car.


In a related note - I can only laugh at all the people who are expressing such self righteous indignation about polluting the environment. If you're so green - go protest the California Air Resources Bureau! They give a free pass to ALL pre-1974 vehicles - no emissions testing ever. These "gross polluters" as they are called in California, account for less than 10% of the cars on the road here, but literally spew about 75% of the deadly pollutants that get sent into the air EVERY DAY in California. Just ONE of these gross polluters probably emits more in a single trip than a thousand VW TDI's. This is a political side show, put on by the EPA, using the typical misinformation and feigned outrage that is the hallmark of the politically correct elite in our nation. Unless and until CARB applies that law to ALL vehicles and we get the gross polluters off the road for good, then they are nothing more than hypocritical bureaucrats, seeking only to maintain their power.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

cary67 said:


> In a related note - I can only laugh at all the people who are expressing such self righteous indignation about polluting the environment. If you're so green - go protest the California Air Resources Bureau! They give a free pass to ALL pre-1974 vehicles - no emissions testing ever. These "gross polluters" as they are called in California, account for less than 10% of the cars on the road here, but literally spew about 75% of the deadly pollutants that get sent into the air EVERY DAY in California. Just ONE of these gross polluters probably emits more in a single trip than a thousand VW TDI's. This is a political side show, put on by the EPA, using the typical misinformation and feigned outrage that is the hallmark of the politically correct elite in our nation. Unless and until CARB applies that law to ALL vehicles and we get the gross polluters off the road for good, then they are nothing more than hypocritical bureaucrats, seeking only to maintain their power.


Damn it. You were doing so well.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

cary67 said:


> They give a free pass to ALL pre-1974 vehicles - no emissions testing ever. These "gross polluters" as they are called in California, account for less than 10% of the cars on the road here, but literally spew about 75% of the deadly pollutants that get sent into the air EVERY DAY in California. Just ONE of these gross polluters probably emits more in a single trip than a thousand VW TDI's.


But they're more interesting and have more character than any car offered today, and that alone trumps any technological, safety, or environmental benefits of new vehicles for me. They need to implement the 30 year exemption there again.


----------



## ATL_Av8r (Oct 17, 2002)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Damn it. You were doing so well.


:laugh:


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

Can we get some help on a new TDI jingle?

"It's the Volkswagen T-D-Lie
It has an ass full of piss and I don't know why"


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

*Remember, remember, the 20th of September
The Diesel Deception and plot;
I see of no reason why Diesel Deception 
Should ever be forgot.
*


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

g-man_ae said:


> "It's the Volkswagen T-D-Lie
> It has an ass full of piss and I don't know why"


The sheer glory of this post cannot be overstated.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

You'reDrunk said:


> *Remember, remember, the 20th of September
> The Diesel Deception and plot;
> I see of no reason why Diesel Deception
> Should ever be forgot.
> *


They're coming after you, too.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...-investigation-to-include-3-0l-v6-engine.html


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> They're coming after you, too.
> 
> http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...-investigation-to-include-3-0l-v6-engine.html


fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu


----------



## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

cary67 said:


> For those of you stating that VW isn't going to be found liable for damages to the owners/purchasers of these vehicles, here is some interesting reading. This firm doesn't f around. VW is in a whole heap of trouble, having violated dozens of fraud statutes. I own three of these vehicles - all affected by this issue. The second and third car were purchased on the experience of the first - super high MPG and super reliable. Anyone who bought these cars was absolutely defrauded by Volkswagen and has a pretty solid cause of action against them - especially in light of VW's admission of guilt.


You just said you bought them because the first car had high MPG and was super reliable. Does this situation affect either of those things? If not, you weren't defrauded.

Get over yourself. This is an EPA issue and not a customer issue.

Oh wait, you're from CA. Who knows what you believe.


----------



## pasateando (Mar 19, 2002)

g-man_ae said:


> Can we get some help on a new TDI jingle?
> 
> "It's the Volkswagen T-D-Lie
> It has an ass full of piss and I don't know why"


LOL! Are you in marketing?


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

My translation...



Martin Winterkorn said:


> The irregularities with regard to the cars with Diesel motors from our company are against everything Volkswagen stands for. At this time, I do not yet have all of the answers to all of the questions, but we are working to clarify matters. Everything is on the table, to make it as transparent and fast as possible. And we are working closely with the responsible authorities to being the investigation. The quick and clear explanation has the highest priority for us. We owe this to our customers, our shareholders, and our staff. And I will be clear: manipulation at Volkswagen must never happen again. Ladies and gentlemen, many people around the world trust our cars, our brands, and our technologies. It gives me unending pain that we have disappointed these people who trusted us. I apologize, to the customers, to the authorities, to the entire diversity who are part of our world. Please believe me, I will do everything in my power to make this right. We will do everything step by step as required to win your trust back. 600 000 people work at our company to build the best cars possible. To our workers, I know how much effort you put into this work, to do things right. It is clear to me that so much still stands in question. I understand this. But is wrong to put the work of our 600 000 people in question because of the errors of a few. Our team does not deserve that. I ask you for your trust in us, in me, for the path forward. We are learning from this. We are working hard on the required technical solutions, and we will do everything to reduce damages to our people and our customers. I give you my word: we will go forward with the greatest possible openness and transparency.


quick take -

Not bad for a German CEO. Almost American. Facial expressions were appropriate. Timing was good. Message was good. Clearly targeted to the locals. Pleading level could have been a bit higher. Strength of attitude was solid. Wording in German was fantastic - several times he used constructs that are reserved for Very. Serious. Bidness. to make points.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

jsausley said:


> You just said you bought them because the first car had high MPG and was super reliable. Does this situation affect either of those things? If not, you weren't defrauded.
> 
> Get over yourself. This is an EPA issue and not a customer issue.
> 
> Oh wait, you're from CA. Who knows what you believe.


Whoa whoa...back down there buddy. Dont paint all of us with that brush. It's not like NC has a sterling reputation in the media....


----------



## turtledub (May 10, 2006)

Ahu ftw!


----------



## wolfcastle (Jul 28, 2006)

DJMRDARK said:


> Whoa whoa...back down there buddy. Dont paint all of us with that brush. It's not like NC has a sterling reputation in the media....


NC is fine, it is SC that has the bad rep.


----------



## green_slc (Feb 2, 2001)

Why are only TDi models 2009-2015 affected? What about all the TDi models before that? We're the earlier model EPA compliant? If so why would VW change TDI engines to pollute more? Weird...


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> Wording in German was fantastic - several times he used constructs that are reserved for Very. Serious. Bidness. to make points.


Isn't everything in German really serious bidness? :laugh:


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

My only question, if VW is able to fix this problem with a software patch/upgrade whatever, and it has no effect on HP/TQ or MPG, would customers even have a case against them? The only thing I could think of is that the fraud would come from the vehicle being able to pass inspection (which in some states includes emissions) but if after the patch the vehicle still passes emissions (for real this time :laugh: ) i'm thinking customers have no real case.


----------



## Varooom (Aug 5, 1999)

New VW advertising slogan: "Fahrfromtruthen"


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Varooom said:


> New VW advertising slogan: "Fahrfromtruthen"


golf clap :laugh:


----------



## DubyaV (Apr 24, 2013)

jsausley said:


> You just said you bought them because the first car had high MPG and was super reliable. Does this situation affect either of those things? If not, you weren't defrauded.
> 
> Get over yourself. This is an EPA issue and not a customer issue.
> 
> Oh wait, you're from CA. Who knows what you believe.


Of course this is a customer issue as well. If only for the following simple fact: Volkswagen sold cars under the pretense that those cars were in accordance with Federal motor vehicle standards on the date of manufacture. Volkswagen have admitted this was not the case, and thus we’re dealing with a material misrepresentation, i.e., fraud. Knowing cars can only be registered if they satisfy these federal motor vehicle standards, this leaves a customer with a car that wouldn’t be able to be registered—it’s pretty safe to say that no customer, not even the greatest fanboy in the world, would have bought such a car from Volkswagen knowing all this.

VW is dealing with a three-pronged issue here: they’re in hot water with the EPA, they’re possibly facing a criminal inquiry by the DOJ, and they will face lawsuits from customers they defrauded as a result of their intentional deception of federal authorities.


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

noatonement said:


> My only question, if VW is able to fix this problem with a software patch/upgrade whatever, and it has no effect on HP/TQ or MPG, would customers even have a case against them? The only thing I could think of is that the fraud would come from the vehicle being able to pass inspection (which in some states includes emissions) but if after the patch the vehicle still passes emissions (for real this time :laugh: ) i'm thinking customers have no real case.


That's just not going to happen. If VW could have fixed this with a software update, they already would have done so.


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

green_slc said:


> Why are only TDi models 2009-2015 affected? What about all the TDi models before that? We're the earlier model EPA compliant? If so why would VW change TDI engines to pollute more? Weird...


In 2007 the diesel passenger car rules were changed to be a lot more stringent. The older 1.9L TDI engines didn't meet the standards, so they had to stop selling them. The last of the 1.9L TDI cars were 2006 model year cars. It took VW til 2009 to get the 2.0L out the door and pass the new emission requirem... well, get them out the door at least. :laugh:


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Smigelski said:


> In 2007 the diesel passenger car rules were changed to be a lot more stringent. The older 1.9L TDI engines didn't meet the standards, so they had to stop selling them. The last of the 1.9L TDI cars were 2006 model year cars. It took VW til 2009 to get the 2.0L out the door and pass the new emission requirem... well, get them out the door at least. :laugh:


Wouldn't it be ironic if the old 1.9L was actually cleaner? :laugh:


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

Can we speculate on who knew what, when? 

Best case scenario? Worst case scenario? 

I don't have a horse in the race so I could care less, but could it just be the team of engineers responsible for the TDI engine / emissions system and they kept EVERYONE else in the dark? Could it just be the a rogue team of engineers and scientists who wanted to make their particular TDI project look good and kept the whole VW board of directors out of the loop. Could the people at the top actually be saying, "They did what????" Or would they have had to have consented to and approved all of it? 

Curious...


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

green_slc said:


> Why are only TDi models 2009-2015 affected? What about all the TDi models before that? We're the earlier model EPA compliant? If so why would VW change TDI engines to pollute more? Weird...


Because the 2009+ cars had to meet stricter emission regs. The older cars wouldn't even come close to meeting todays emission regulations.


----------



## cary67 (May 19, 2003)

jsausley said:


> You just said you bought them because the first car had high MPG and was super reliable. Does this situation affect either of those things? If not, you weren't defrauded.
> 
> Get over yourself. This is an EPA issue and not a customer issue.
> 
> Oh wait, you're from CA. Who knows what you believe.


Actually, if you read my post before you trolled, you'd see that I offer anecdotal evidence that this situation DOES in fact affect BOTH of those things. Try reading the complaint as well. I realize this is not scientific proof - I didn't say it was. It certainly is curious, though, and I think any reasonable person would assume there will be a large negative impact from the ECU reflash.

Oh, wait, you don't even own a TDI. You're just a troll.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

The Instagram has officially been swarmed with owners admitting that VW cheated, but they're rolling their own coal/refusing to get the recall work done. 

Am I even mad? I don't know if I am even mad.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

all of the VW TDIs consistently beat their reported mileage numbers....maybe VW hedged their bet knowing if they get caught the fix would bring in line the mileage numbers to what they reported the cars would get once compliant?????


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

You'reDrunk said:


> all of the VW TDIs consistently beat their reported mileage numbers....maybe VW hedged their bet knowing if they get caught the fix would bring in line the mileage numbers to what they reported the cars would get once compliant?????


To me this just shows the EPA tests are **** and not very accurate (At least for diesels).. After about 20,000 miles of break-in, a TDI should easily gain 2-3 mpg on average.


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

jsausley said:


> What in the world will I buy if the EPA destroys VWAG?


What the jsausleys and RogueTDIs of the world aren't getting is that the EPA didn't destroy VW, VW did that all on their own, apparently knowingly & consciously.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Mike! said:


> What the jsausleys and RogueTDIs of the world aren't getting is that the EPA didn't destroy VW, VW did that all on their own, apparently knowingly & consciously.


They can sit at the kiddie table together.


----------



## MonsterM (Aug 10, 2005)

Do you guys think this will have any significant effect on gasoline models? Like getting a better deal on the GTI/R now than prior to this fiasco?


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

Not sure if posted yet...



Automotive News said:


> Bosch says it makes components at center of VW emissions probe
> September 22, 2015 - 10:25 am ET
> 
> FRANKFURT (Reuters) -- Robert Bosch said it had delivered components, so-called common rail injection systems, to Volkswagen Group that are now at the center of a probe into rigged emissions tests of diesel-powered vehicles.
> ...


----------



## leontief (Nov 17, 2008)

cary67 said:


> In a related note - I can only laugh at all the people who are expressing such self righteous indignation about polluting the environment. If you're so green - go protest the California Air Resources Bureau! They give a free pass to ALL pre-1974 vehicles - no emissions testing ever. These "gross polluters" as they are called in California, account for less than 10% of the cars on the road here, but literally spew about 75% of the deadly pollutants that get sent into the air EVERY DAY in California. Just ONE of these gross polluters probably emits more in a single trip than a thousand VW TDI's. This is a political side show, put on by the EPA, using the typical misinformation and feigned outrage that is the hallmark of the politically correct elite in our nation. Unless and until CARB applies that law to ALL vehicles and we get the gross polluters off the road for good, then they are nothing more than hypocritical bureaucrats, seeking only to maintain their power.


Your going to rant on about cars that are 40+ years old now, really? How many of those are DD? You got a source for your made-up statistics? And just FYI, since almost all of those cars do not have catalytic converters they are designed to run on the rich side of stoich, so very little NOx just more CO. Pick your poison, but NOx definitly makes smog. 

Based on vehicle miles driven I would bet that the TDI's pollute more.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Yeah, but Bosch had to know what the programming was being used for. It's like the Diesel Tuners providing Diesel tunes and claiming that they had no idea, even worse so because Bosch can't play the "it had a off-road use only disclaimer on it" card. They are going to get dragged into this.


----------



## ATL_Av8r (Oct 17, 2002)

JitteryJoe said:


> Yeah, but Bosch had to know what the programming was being used for. It's like the Diesel Tuners providing Diesel tunes and claiming that they had no idea, even worse so because Bosch can't play the "it had a off-road use only disclaimer on it" card. They are going to get dragged into this.












:laugh:


----------



## cary67 (May 19, 2003)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Damn it. You were doing so well.


Feel free to attack and ridicule my political opinion - I'm a big boy. However, are you saying that I am incorrect about gross polluters in California and the CARB? Because....I'm not:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...-up-gross-polluter-vehicle-retirement-program

Before you say "this article says they are getting them off the road!" read it a little. Yes, they are doing that for *vehicles that fail their smog checks." You can't fail a smog check if you don't have to take one. I know. I used to own a 1972 Datsun 240z, which was absolutely a gross polluter. I sold it in 2003, when I got my first VW - a 2003 GTI 20th Anniversary Edition.


May have been a little off on the numbers, and I guess it is actually pre-1976 vehicles - but my point is still valid. The actual AMOUNT of pollution in question for these VW's pales in comparison with gross polluters. Why are owners of old clunkers given a free pass to produce three times the pollution of the rest of the cars on the road combined?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

MonsterM said:


> Do you guys think this will have any significant effect on gasoline models? Like getting a better deal on the GTI/R now than prior to this fiasco?


VW dealers will be more hungry to sell cars. VW dealers will be more hungry to make a higher profit on the cars they do sell. NO.


----------



## sucking chest wound (Mar 22, 2000)

MonsterM said:


> Do you guys think this will have any significant effect on gasoline models? Like getting a better deal on the GTI/R now than prior to this fiasco?


If you figure that TDI buyers simply won't show up to look at gasoline models instead, and go across the street to buy a Prius, then VW dealers just lost 20-25% of their sales. On top of that, I'm sure that somewhere near 90% of the American public has no idea what a TDI is, and how it is different from a gasoline engine, but they DO know that something is rotten at VW, and might be inclined to look at a Kia instead (or whatever). What percentage of people on top of the would-be TDI buyers will that ultimately be?

How they (the dealers) absorb this is an interesting question and probably one of the more dramatic sides to this story. The VW mothership has deep pockets and can take the hit, but can the dealers? VW has pushed dealers to build bigger, more expensive shops and take on more inventory. Chop off 25+% of sales, and what happens to them?

I'm going to guess there will be some deals on gasoline VWs in the days ahead.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

cary67 said:


> Why are owners of old clunkers given a free pass to produce three times the pollution of the rest of the cars on the road combined?


Because every pre 1976 vehicle is a clunker, right?


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

leontief said:


> Your going to rant on about cars that are 40+ years old now, really? How many of those are DD? You got a source for your made-up statistics?


Probably not the same source, but it's pretty well known that it's a small number of older/poorly maintained cars making the bulk of the pollution.

http://www.treehugger.com/cars/25-cars-are-causing-90-air-pollution-we-breathe-new-study-finds.html


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

sucking chest wound said:


> If you figure that TDI buyers simply won't show up to look at gasoline models instead, and go across the street to buy a Prius, then VW dealers just lost 20-25% of their sales. On top of that, I'm sure that somewhere near 90% of the American public has no idea what a TDI is, and how it is different from a gasoline engine, but they DO know that something is rotten at VW, and might be inclined to look at a Kia instead (or whatever). What percentage of people on top of the would-be TDI buyers will that ultimately be?
> 
> How they (the dealers) absorb this is an interesting question and probably one of the more dramatic sides to this story. The VW mothership has deep pockets and can take the hit, but can the dealers? VW has pushed dealers to build bigger, more expensive shops and take on more inventory. Chop off 25+% of sales, and what happens to them?
> 
> I'm going to guess there will be some deals on gasoline VWs in the days ahead.


----------



## wolfcastle (Jul 28, 2006)

cary67 said:


> Why are owners of old clunkers given a free pass to produce three times the pollution of the rest of the cars on the road combined?


Same reason as why Grandpa is allowed to be just a little racist.


Times have changed. You cant even make the comparison of the "gross polluters." Those "Gross polluters" adhered to industry standards at the time they were produced.

VW did not adhere to EPA guidelines, which their cars are subjected to. Stop drinking the coolade man


----------



## Vag*Tech (Sep 3, 2013)

I would be surprised if more manufactures do not come out of the woodwork and either admit to the same tactics as VW or get caught themselves. Then again the diesel small car market is dismal in the USA perhaps this is why? Other manufactures simply can not make it work. You have to understand, the govt. is demanding high MPG's, low emissions, higher crash test ratings (more weight, good luck with that MPG) and the customer wants power, comfort and features all at a low cost, oh and the manufacture has to make a profit. Do these all jive? The govt. wants 54.5mpg average by 2025 as well as increased emissions standards, do you really think that is compatible with all of the other conditions outlined above? Someone losses, the Govt. The consumer or the Manufacture, and the root cause is mandated standards. It is easy for someone to tell another how to raise their children when they have had none of their own.


----------



## cary67 (May 19, 2003)

leontief said:


> Your going to rant on about cars that are 40+ years old now, really? How many of those are DD? You got a source for your made-up statistics? And just FYI, since almost all of those cars do not have catalytic converters they are designed to run on the rich side of stoich, so very little NOx just more CO. Pick your poison, but NOx definitly makes smog.
> 
> Based on vehicle miles driven I would bet that the TDI's pollute more.


Yeah, actually I do - the CARB themselves said this.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...-up-gross-polluter-vehicle-retirement-program


Maybe you should google before you troll....


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

cary67 said:


> For what it's worth - and this is only anecdotal - here is something to think about: my 2015 Passat has not been patched and I routinely exceed 60mpg on my commute to work if I keep it at 65. My wife just purchased a 2015 Golf Sportwagen two weeks ago. I did not test drive it before she bought it. Now that I have driven it - it feels like a wet noodle compared to my Passat and last weekend I made that same commute and could barely pull 40 mpg. I don't know for sure, but I would bet that the Sportwagen is already patched.
> 
> In my opinion, it is extremely unlikely that VW took this kind of risk is the patch is going to have a "neglible" impact on performance and mileage. My guess is that it will be quite significant. Also, when purchasing these cars, I was told by dealers repeatedly that the premium price for TDI models was because VW was aware of the fuel savings its customers are achieving and they want to take a piece of that in the list price of the car. Assuming that is in any way accurate - VW will lose the class action lawsuits that are coming....big time.
> 
> Frankly, a buy back is appropriate. Short of that, the only thing I'm going to be satisfied with is about $5,000 a car - comprised of the price difference that they charged in the first place and also the 1/3 reduction in gas mileage that I am going to have to live with as long as I own the car.


I would think VW would only owe you compensation if they did something to your Passat to reduce the fuel economy below what the combined average that was on your window sticker when the car was new. I don't know what that is offhand on a 2015 Passat. But let's assume for the sake of discussion it's 30 city, 42 highway and a combined number of 36. To me, it's fairly irrelevant whether you were getting 60 mpg or 150 mpg prior to whatever "fix" VW comes out with eventually. If that fix gets applied to your car, and your MPG numbers are still in line with what was advertised on your window sticker, they've given you what they said they would give you. Now yeah, it sucks that your 65 mpg highway goes down to 42 highway, or from 45 combined average down to 36, but I don't see how they can be held liable for you losing any insane MPG that they never promised you in the first place. Anything you got beyond that advertised on the sticker was gravy.

If your MPG drops down to 10% below EPA estimates, maybe then they owe you some cash, because the sticker misrepresented the car. Also, if they change something that significantly impacts the reliability/durability of your car, then again, they probably owe you something in my book.

But hey, I'm not an attorney.


----------



## cary67 (May 19, 2003)

wolfcastle said:


> Same reason as why Grandpa is allowed to be just a little racist.
> 
> 
> Times have changed. You cant even make the comparison of the "gross polluters." Those "Gross polluters" adhered to industry standards at the time they were produced.
> ...


I think the point is that it is hard to take the CARB and its mission seriously when looking at these facts.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...-up-gross-polluter-vehicle-retirement-program

Institutionalized Racism used to be legal, too. By your logic, it should still be legal.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

cary67 said:


> Institutionalized Racism used to be legal, too. By your logic, it should still be legal.


:facepalm: if someone (like an elderly person now) grows up in a racist area and around racist people in a racist time, it is expected that it might rub off on them.

Expecting them to suddenly stop because it's illegal is absurd. 

But anyway, that's not what this thread is about.


----------



## cary67 (May 19, 2003)

syncro87 said:


> But hey, I'm not an attorney.



Fair enough, but what about Horsepower, Torque, engine life, etc? Material misrepresentation is fraud. Period. There are laws that address this specifically.

These guys ARE actually attorneys:

http://www.weo1.com/tpn/c/C517/docs/PlComplaint.pdf


----------



## vwgilly (Sep 30, 2004)

this is all excellent


----------



## ATL_Av8r (Oct 17, 2002)

cary67 said:


> May have been a little off on the numbers, and I guess it is actually pre-1976 vehicles - but my point is still valid. The actual AMOUNT of pollution in question for these VW's pales in comparison with gross polluters. Why are owners of old clunkers given a free pass to produce three times the pollution of the rest of the cars on the road combined?


But how many pre-1976 gross polluters are registered and tagged in CA today vs how many 2009-2015 German gross polluters are registered and tagged in CA today? Until you can quantify that which would allow one to estimate a net difference, you really don't have a valid point.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

pasateando said:


> LOL! Are you in marketing?


No but I should be... Maybe we can get the old ladies from VW's TDI adds to rap this, for added humor. New Old Wives' Tale: VW TDI's are clean!

http://blog.caranddriver.com/vws-hilarious-new-tdi-diesel-ads-return-excellent-viral-mileage/

It's also humor-as-defense-mechanism since I have tried to stay true to the VW brand for 15 years now, suffering the slings and arrows of outrageous TCL, but no more.


----------



## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

Mike! said:


> What the jsausleys and RogueTDIs of the world aren't getting is that the EPA didn't destroy VW, VW did that all on their own, apparently knowingly & consciously.


Right, because this totally is something that VW has knowingly done in order to destroy their company and the world, and the EPA has never before tried to bury a foreign company in the name of trees in order to please lobbyists. :laugh:

Do some research?


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

1985Jetta said:


> Because every pre 1976 vehicle is a clunker, right?


Generally speaking, yes. Most cars 20+ years old aren't concourse-quality museum pieces, and then you have the 'nice' old cars that are built by 'enthusiasts' with ****-all for emissions controls. 




Vag*Tech said:


> You have to understand, the govt. is demanding high MPG's, low emissions, higher crash test ratings (more weight, good luck with that MPG) and the customer wants power, comfort and features all at a low cost, oh and the manufacture has to make a profit. Do these all jive? The govt. wants 54.5mpg average by 2025 as well as increased emissions standards, do you really think that is compatible with all of the other conditions outlined above? Someone losses, the Govt. The consumer or the Manufacture, and the root cause is mandated standards. It is easy for someone to tell another how to raise their children when they have had none of their own.


Oh, I understand that quite well. And I also understand that cars today have higher MPG's, lower emissions, higher crash test ratings, AND more power, more comfort, more features, at a cost that is equal or lower (inflation-adjusted) than cars from years gone by. Also, weight is not a significant factor given modern engineering and materials. Your entire premise is flawed. So yes, I really DO think all of those conditions are compatible. The reason why cars are so good today IS BECAUSE of mandated standards. Otherwise there would be no external force moving the industry forward, and we'd get the same level of malaise-era crap that we did long ago.


----------



## wolfcastle (Jul 28, 2006)

cary67 said:


> Institutionalized Racism used to be legal, too. By your logic, it should still be legal.


No, you missed the point. Shocking.

And by your logic VW should be able to do whatever it pleases regardless of EPA standards and we should punish people who drive older cars that were made prior to regulations. Good luck with that fight. Apparently the extra NOx is infecting your brain.


----------



## Vag*Tech (Sep 3, 2013)

You would think if they wanted cleaner air they would crack down on these diesel truck guys blowing black smoke all over town, how many 2.0 TDI's does it take to equal one of the "bro's"


----------



## intercedeGLI (Sep 8, 2002)

cary67 said:


> I think the point is that it is hard to take the CARB and its mission seriously when looking at these facts.


It's not hard to take the EPA seriously at all. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. Emissions improve over time. 

https://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/new-nasa-images-highlight-us-air-quality-improvement/#.VgGIpt9VhBc

If you're proposing that the EPA go after every pre-ODB-II and non-catalytic converter car in the United States and get them off the road in order to be taken seriously I think you'll just never be happy. Or you're looking for an excuse to be contrarian.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

mhjett said:


> Isn't everything in German really serious bidness? :laugh:


This was more like "I am going to find out who did this and strangle them very slowly". 



JitteryJoe said:


> Yeah, but Bosch had to know what the programming was being used for. It's like the Diesel Tuners providing Diesel tunes and claiming that they had no idea, even worse so because Bosch can't play the "it had a off-road use only disclaimer on it" card. They are going to get dragged into this.


Jein.

Bosch didn't write the code. They supplied the hardware and the software platform. VW produced the maps and the maps selection algorithms. So Bosch would not really be complicit. It's like saying that Bosch is responsible for pollution due to an APR tune. No, they aren't. APR is responsible for the APR code. And... VW probably has a non-disclosure/non-compete/non-analysis agreement with Bosch that limits how much Bosch is legally allowed to know about VW's maps.

So if a Bosch ECU fails and VW sends it back, all Bosch can do is check to make sure that the hardware is good and the basic coding is intact. They can't go in and say, well, dumbass, you programmed that bad map to engage under the wrong conditions. They may know that, but they are probably not legally allowed to know that.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

jsausley said:


> Right, because this totally is something that VW has knowingly done in order to destroy their company and the world, and the EPA has never before tried to bury a foreign company in the name of trees in order to please lobbyists. :laugh:
> 
> Do some research?


Provide some evidence or STFU. VW is not a big enough target for anyone to have an agenda against. *This is totally something that VW has knowingly done in order to make $$$ through fraud, and they're owning up to it. *


----------



## intercedeGLI (Sep 8, 2002)

Vag*Tech said:


> You would think if they wanted cleaner air they would crack down on these diesel truck guys blowing black smoke all over town, how many 2.0 TDI's does it take to equal one of the "bro's"


That's a local law enforcement issue. The EPA is a regulatory body. It isn't a law enforcement agency. It works within the boundaries of laws set by Congress. For example, the VW case has been sent to the US Justice Department.


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

atomicalex said:


> This was more like "I am going to find out who did this and strangle them very slowly".
> 
> Jein.
> 
> ...


The bolded is kinda my thinking. Its a "I don't recall" type of deal, because you may have seen something in the course of your work ---but you damn sure didn't make any notes about it because you probably aren't supposed to know that and definitely don't want your ass sued off.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

Vag*Tech said:


> You would think if they wanted cleaner air they would crack down on these diesel truck guys blowing black smoke all over town, how many 2.0 TDI's does it take to equal one of the "bro's"


Those were sold new in compliance. The 'bros' do that crap aftermarket. It's already illegal. Call your local cops and make them enforce the existing state/local laws.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

OOOO-A3 said:


> Provide some evidence or STFU. VW is not a big enough target for anyone to have an agenda against. *This is totally something that VW has knowingly done in order to make $$$ through fraud, and they're owning up to it. *


Or TDI's were the only credible threat to Tesla, run by Obama's best friend Elon Musk. Obama did prop up Space-X by burying NASA human spaceflight, now he can further help Tesla - after 1st burying Toyota and their hybrids - by now crapping on VW and their diesels.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

I love how some of you guys are making this out to be a witch-hunt or lobbyist induced effort to eliminate VW as a competitor. Two things are wrong with that wack thinking:

1. VW admitted they intentionally committed fraud....by way of 11 million vehicles...world wide!
2. On what planet and in what universe would VW be worth conspiring against in order to remove them from the US marketplace??? They are no threat to any domestic company. Subaru and Mazda make a bigger splash here.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

JitteryJoe said:


> Yeah, but Bosch had to know what the programming was being used for. It's like the Diesel Tuners providing Diesel tunes and claiming that they had no idea, even worse so because Bosch can't play the "it had a off-road use only disclaimer on it" card. They are going to get dragged into this.


I think that's a huge leap to make about Bosch. That's like saying that the makers of cell phones know that those phones are being used to call drug dealers, or that the makers of PCs know that those PCs are being used to write hacking software. If Bosch just provided the hardware and basic software, that doesn't mean they had any idea how VW was using it.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

[Tin foil hat] Bush and Cheney were behind this from the start. [/Tin foil hat]


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

cary67 said:


> I think the point is that it is hard to take the CARB and its mission seriously when looking at these facts.
> 
> http://www.greencarreports.com/news...-up-gross-polluter-vehicle-retirement-program


Whatever your issue is with CARB doesn't change the fact that they gamed the federal/EPA tests that apply nationwide.




jsausley said:


> Right, because this totally is something that VW has knowingly done in order to destroy their company and the world, and the EPA has never before tried to bury a foreign company in the name of trees in order to please lobbyists. :laugh:
> 
> Do some research?


Yes, this is a grand conspiracy. The EPA made the rules so hard they knew VW would have to fudge them, and then 7 years later they'd be waiting to bring them down after they made millions of dollars! Give your head a shake.


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

cary67 said:


> Fair enough, but what about Horsepower, Torque, engine life, etc? Material misrepresentation is fraud. Period. There are laws that address this specifically.


Like I said, if they modify your car to significantly degrade it's reliability or longevity, I think you should be compensated. If their mods cut the life of some of your components by half, that isn't fair and you should be taken care of. My main point is that I think buybacks, huge cash payouts, etc, are unwarranted unless the FE takes some _massive_ hit after the "fix" or the car loses 50% of its power, etc. MPG dropping by 10% or a 5hp reduction don't warrant buying back a car, in my personal opinion. That's a bit extreme as I see it. Such a loss in MPG might warrant paying you some money to make up the MPG difference, like Hyundai did. Maybe you get a $500 fuel card to buy a bunch of diesel. They warrant your diesel emissions gear to 150k. But buyback? $5k cash? Eh...

It's all speculation until we know what the fix is and how the fix impacts the cars. I would guess that your car specifically would see a relatively light impact. The older TDIs from 09-10 might be a different story. If you totally get the shaft and your car is unusable, yeah, I say they should buy it back. I'm all about proportional response.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

atomicalex said:


> This was more like "I am going to find out who did this and strangle them very slowly".
> 
> Jein.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clearing that up, I was thinking for some reason that Bosch wrote the code since it was their hardware and most likely their sensors. The more I think about it you definitely wouldn't want Bosch to be in the loop programming your next top secret engine design so I don't know what I was thinking.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

cary67 said:


> Feel free to attack and ridicule my political opinion - I'm a big boy. However, are you saying that I am incorrect about gross polluters in California and the CARB? Because....I'm not:
> 
> http://www.greencarreports.com/news...-up-gross-polluter-vehicle-retirement-program
> 
> ...


You're shifting the goalposts. Like it or not, those gross polluters are legal. They're grandfathered in because they passed emissions when they were new. Do I think the bounty should be raised, and more of them taken off the streets? Absolutely. But that's a different problem than the grossly fraudulent and calculated attempt to sell new cars that flagrantly violate current, lawful Tier 2 Bin 5 requirements! Caring about problems is not a zero-sum game. I can give a **** about both issues at once, thanks. 

And that's leaving aside entirely the fact that you, and everyone else making this argument, possess no relevant expertise on air emissions, environmental impact assessment, or public health, and have no blessed clue whether this represents a significant impact or not. And I'm not an air specialist either, but especially with NOx, the sheer volume of emitted pollutant is not a guide to its effects; NOx undergoes photochemical reactions that produce dozens of pollutants, including ozone and superfine reactive particulates. Given that you live in an air quality nonattainment area anyway, you really need as few unnecessary sources of ground-level air pollution as you can get. VW was supposed to be helping us all with that little project, and they weren't. Also, the pollutants produced by a gas clunker are not the same as those produced by diesels - way more Carbon monoxide and soot, way less NOx.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Turbio! said:


> You're shifting the goalposts.


Let's not bring the 33 yard PAT into this.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

g-man_ae said:


> Or TDI's were the only credible threat to Tesla, run by Obama's best friend Elon Musk. Obama did prop up Space-X by burying NASA human spaceflight, now he can further help Tesla - after 1st burying Toyota and their hybrids - by now crapping on VW and their diesels.


You're insane. :facepalm:


----------



## Vag*Tech (Sep 3, 2013)

OOOO-A3 said:


> Those were sold new in compliance. The 'bros' do that crap aftermarket. It's already illegal. Call your local cops and make them enforce the existing state/local laws.


What law would that be in Idaho?


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

You know who was in the position to approve this? Dr Piech. 

That would account for Winterkorn's language in the statement, along with his manner. 

Hahahahahahahahahahaha, what if Hr Piech thought it would hold, and worst case, he could figure it out and blow it over - for sure in the EU he could make it go away. But as usual, the US foils his plans! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Now Winterkorn faces the possibility of hanging the old man out to dry for good.


----------



## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

Mike! said:


> Yes, this is a grand conspiracy. The EPA made the rules so hard they knew VW would have to fudge them, and then 7 years later they'd be waiting to bring them down after they made millions of dollars! Give your head a shake.


It's been happening for decades to Nissan, Honda, VW and lots of other manufacturers. It's the reason our EPA standards are more harsh than Europe and yet conveniently US automakers don't have to meet them with the bulk of their products. It's a legal mercantilism system that has US company and lobbyist interest in minds rather than the consumer -- whose best interest is, and always will be, getting into their hands the cheapest and most reliable cars possible.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

g-man_ae said:


> Or TDI's were the only credible threat to Tesla, run by Obama's best friend Elon Musk. Obama did prop up Space-X by burying NASA human spaceflight, now he can further help Tesla - after 1st burying Toyota and their hybrids - by now crapping on VW and their diesels.


This makes perfect sense. Kill off $25K-$35K Diesels to make $120K electric cars more attractive to buyers. :thumbup:


----------



## A&F (Feb 13, 2013)

*NYT: EPA Orders VW to recall nearly 500,000 vehicles*



Vag*Tech said:


> What law would that be in Idaho?


Federal, which is Nation Wide, every State.

I'm sure you can also pop open your Idaho vehicle code and find a list of infractions as well.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

cary67 said:


> For what it's worth - and this is only anecdotal - here is something to think about: my 2015 Passat has not been patched and I routinely exceed 60mpg on my commute to work if I keep it at 65. My wife just purchased a 2015 Golf Sportwagen two weeks ago. I did not test drive it before she bought it. Now that I have driven it - it feels like a wet noodle compared to my Passat and last weekend I made that same commute and could barely pull 40 mpg. I don't know for sure, but I would bet that the Sportwagen is already patched.


our (gone now) '09 and '11 SW TDI never achieved above mid 40s... wife driving it was high 30s (f'ning lead foot woman). the '11 didn't make it past ~3-4k miles since the HPFP decided to hate diesel.

my '12 Touareg TDI had a ecm update last year or whenever and has kinda sucked since, not really in the mpg but transmission shift points and a bit more laggy.


----------



## cary67 (May 19, 2003)

It's funny how most of the people with the snarky responses on here don't even actually own one of the affected vehicles. A lot of them have only been members here for a couple of years, yet have tens of thousands of posts....hmmm. Trolling before googling seems to be the norm. I remember now why I stopped frequenting these boards about ten years ago - probably before the snarky ones even had a driver's license. It's about as bad as 4chan or Reddit around here....

I'm sure the collective response of the trolls will be "good riddance," but I'll only be back to post a picture of the check I get from the VW settlement.


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

DJMRDARK said:


> I love how some of you guys are making this out to be a witch-hunt or lobbyist induced effort to eliminate VW as a competitor. Two things are wrong with that wack thinking:
> 
> 1. VW admitted they intentionally committed fraud....by way of 11 million vehicles...world wide!


Right. The biggest problem with the conspiracy theories is that VW instantly admitted they intentionally circumvented the law. 

If this is a conspiracy, then VW itself was in on it, which makes absolutely no sense.


----------



## BetterByDesign (Sep 7, 2004)

cabzilla said:


> 11 million cars!
> 
> http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/22/news/vw-recall-diesel/index.html



Holy carp, I'm going back to bed. Wake me up when this is over.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

Vag*Tech said:


> What law would that be in Idaho?


Title 49 Chapter 9 Section 49-937.



> TITLE 49
> MOTOR VEHICLES
> CHAPTER 9
> VEHICLE EQUIPMENT
> ...


----------



## Qwan3356 (Feb 9, 2012)

g-man_ae said:


> Or TDI's were the only credible threat to Tesla, run by Obama's best friend Elon Musk. Obama did prop up Space-X by burying NASA human spaceflight, now he can further help Tesla - after 1st burying Toyota and their hybrids - by now crapping on VW and their diesels.


HAHAHAHA OMG HAHAHA. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::laugh::laugh:


----------



## Vag*Tech (Sep 3, 2013)

cary67 said:


> It's funny how most of the people with the snarky responses on here don't even actually own one of the affected vehicles. A lot of them have only been members here for a couple of years, yet have tens of thousands of posts....hmmm. Trolling before googling seems to be the norm. I remember now why I stopped frequenting these boards about ten years ago - probably before the snarky ones even had a driver's license. It's about as bad as 4chan or Reddit around here....
> 
> I'm sure the collective response of the trolls will be "good riddance," but I'll only be back to post a picture of the check I get from the VW settlement.


Spoken like a true Kalifornian


----------



## MonsterM (Aug 10, 2005)

I know the sales of new TDI models have been stopped but what about a used 2014 TDI? Are there states that it would pass emission testing? This can be a great time to score a deal on a barely used TDI.


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

Vag*Tech said:


> What law would that be in Idaho?





A&F said:


> Federal, which is Nation Wide, every State.
> 
> I'm sure you can also pop open your Idaho vehicle code and find a list of infractions as well.


:thumbup:

I'm sure idaho forbids tampering with factory installed and federally mandated emissions controls somewhere in state vehicle code. Its a "visual check" in places that don't do emissions testing... The answer to the question "is the exhaust system modified?" being "yes" is normally grounds enough for an infraction.


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

MonsterM said:


> I know the sales of new TDI models have been stopped but what about a used 2015 TDI? Are there states that it would pass emission testing? This can be a great time to score a deal on a barely used TDI.


I wouldn't be buying a used, modern TDI anytime soon...certainly not before whatever "fix" is publicized is out, unless you have some cash to burn and are willing to flush it should the worst happen.


----------



## intercedeGLI (Sep 8, 2002)

Vag*Tech said:


> What law would that be in Idaho?


This one. 

http://www.legislature.idaho.gov/idstat/Title49/T49CH9SECT49-937.htm


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Tornado2dr said:


> I wouldn't be buying a used, modern TDI anytime soon...certainly not before whatever "fix" is publicized is out, unless you have some cash to burn and are willing to flush it should the worst happen.


I'd be willing to bet that if there is actually some sort of buyback at any point, it will be pre-dated to September 17 or 18. So don't think you can score some quick cash by buying one off "Joe's used cars" lot today.


----------



## sucking chest wound (Mar 22, 2000)

MonsterM said:


> I know the sales of new TDI models have been stopped but what about a used 2014 TDI? Are there states that it would pass emission testing? This can be a great time to score a deal on a barely used TDI.


Strictly speaking we know they pass emissions in all 50 states right now.  I don't think there is any clarity as to whether states can refuse you a test because of this issue or fail you outright because of it. I think this is pretty much without precedent and so I doubt it is legal for them to do so right now. But I am not a lawyer.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

sucking chest wound said:


> Strictly speaking we know they pass emissions in all 50 states right now.  I don't think there is any clarity as to whether states can refuse you a test because of this issue. I think that is pretty much without precedent and so I doubt it is legal for them to do so right now. But I am not a lawyer.


But did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Mike! said:


> What the jsausleys and RogueTDIs of the world aren't getting is that the EPA didn't destroy VW, VW did that all on their own, apparently knowingly & consciously.





Rabbit5GTI said:


> They can sit at the kiddie table together.











It is even electric!



SO much confusion about the role of government and the EPA by so many posters. It is sad really. Government teachers failed them.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

MCTB said:


> SO much confusion about the role of government and the EPA by so many posters. It is sad really. Government teachers failed them.


Sad, yes. Surprising? No.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

g-man_ae said:


> Or TDI's were the only credible threat to Tesla, run by Obama's best friend Elon Musk. Obama did prop up Space-X by burying NASA human spaceflight, now he can further help Tesla - after 1st burying Toyota and their hybrids - by now crapping on VW and their diesels.





Lwize said:


> [Tin foil hat] Bush and Cheney were behind this from the start. [/Tin foil hat]


Yeah, this is all about Republicans and Democrats. 

I know we can't keep politics out of this subject entirely, but seriously? C'mon, guys.


----------



## 8V Fury (Jul 26, 2003)

I wonder if any other car manufacters are doing the same thing and haven't gotten caught yet.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

BetterByDesign said:


> Holy carp, I'm going back to bed. Wake me up when this is over.


Sure thing, Rip. See you in 20 years.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

cary67 said:


> It's funny how most of the people with the snarky responses on here don't even actually own one of the affected vehicles. A lot of them have only been members here for a couple of years, yet have tens of thousands of posts....hmmm.


:wave:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5156036-Vintage-photos-Awesome!&p=88335006#post88335006


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

T_Dub said:


> I think this has been blown out of proportion. VW skirted around some silly test, big deal. The cars are as good as advertised, and NOx isn't killing anyone in such a low volume.


I feel badly for people who have such shallow thoughts.

Emissions standards are a "silly test"?

11 million cars that purposefully exceed NOx standards by a factor of forty "isn't killing anyone"? Sheesh.

Like, what other sorts of f'ed up thinking do such people produce? Sometimes you just gotta look at the evidence and realize someone you once liked really did something terrible and indefensible.




























I love my new TDI, but can't wait to get it fixed.


----------



## 3WheelnGTi (Jan 19, 2008)

8V Fury said:


> I wonder if any other car manufacturers are doing the same thing and haven't gotten caught yet.


Could be other Manufacturers ... but the owners definitively do....


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150922/OEM06/150929954?template=mobile&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1

And here...we....go.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Turbio! said:


> http://www.autonews.com/article/20150922/OEM06/150929954?template=mobile&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1
> 
> And here...we....go.


----------



## intercedeGLI (Sep 8, 2002)

Turbio! said:


> http://www.autonews.com/article/20150922/OEM06/150929954?template=mobile&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1
> 
> And here...we....go.


It boggles my mind the hubris Volkswagen had to possess in order to do what they did, and then be emboldened by it year after year. 

But I wouldn't be surprised at all if the industry at large knew about this for some time and got in on that action themselves. These guys buy competitors products and take them apart don't they? We've all heard the tales about Lexus LS400 sales to rivals, and the lengths Ford went to to make the GT exceptional. Seems like there should be many in the industry doing the same.


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

Turbio! said:


> http://www.autonews.com/article/20150922/OEM06/150929954?template=mobile&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1
> 
> And here...we....go.


Hey MB:


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

These diehard fans sticking up for VW remind of ignorant Apple fans that won't accept ANY criticism of anything Apple does -- no matter what. They always try to find an excuse to pivot or change the argument.

Why can't people just admit that VW f**ked up?


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

atomicalex said:


> You know who was in the position to approve this? Dr Piech.
> 
> That would account for Winterkorn's language in the statement, along with his manner.
> 
> ...


Whoa. That would explain his demeanor.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

If VW would have brought the Amarok here, none of this would have happened. I hope that's the lesson VW takes away from this.

(Sarcasm! Sarcasm! Don't hurt me)


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Turbio! said:


> http://www.autonews.com/article/20150922/OEM06/150929954?template=mobile&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1
> 
> And here...we....go.


That's just a reference to the ICCT report we already knew about and blew up on the BBC news site last Friday. Still, the fact that it's now big news on ABC is significant. This seems to be the hot news item for this week's news cycle for sure.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

MonsterM said:


> Wow so many posters here seem to be very happy to see VW down.


Bull****.

By and large, we are VW fans. We like their products and want them to succeed.

The grief VW is getting here is both justified and well-earned.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

I wonder how many pages this thread is going to grow to before we have any information on how they are going to achieve a "recall?"


----------



## gti5dr06 (Sep 28, 2006)

intercedeGLI said:


> It boggles my mind the hubris Volkswagen had to possess in order to do what they did, and then be emboldened by it year after year.
> 
> But I wouldn't be surprised at all if the industry at large knew about this for some time and got in on that action themselves. These guys buy competitors products and take them apart don't they? We've all heard the tales about Lexus LS400 sales to rivals, and the lengths Ford went to to make the GT exceptional. Seems like there should be many in the industry doing the same.


ze germans cheating? lol. Yeah I would bet plenty of other diesel makers doing the exact same thing, otherwise they'd be down on both power and economy.


----------



## MGQ (Apr 16, 2002)

Mazda 3s said:


> These diehard fans sticking up for VW remind of ignorant Apple fans that won't accept ANY criticism of anything Apple does -- no matter what. They always try to find an excuse to pivot or change the argument.
> 
> Why can't people just admit that VW [messed] up?


Is it really so important for you to have some loyal fans not want to accept it? 

Its a historic event and there is going to be a lot of discussion on this in the coming weeks, whether you like or dislike VW. (before or after)

It's really not even that surprising, as generally many auto enthusiasts have been against environmental and safety regulation in their "toys". It just so happens the subject of our hobby is also an everyday mode of transportation for people so many people more are affected by the regulations than just the enthusiast. We all are. 

And honestly it does open up the discussion about how much is enough, how clean is clean, how efficient is efficient? we could simply legislate for a 90% gain every 20 years and hope technology can keep up and/or people's expectations and norms of comfort are lowered until we are riding segways like we mostly probably should be as a society.


----------



## Eric D (Feb 16, 1999)

Will Matthias Müller step in as the new CEO?


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

*Oh the irony!*

VW hired Lenny Kravitz to intro a new car 

I guess they both know a little about being exposed...

https://www.facebook.com/vwcanada/photos/a.141690905952.134237.26024405952/10153562075845953/?type=1


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

How the New York Times website looks right now:


----------



## A&F (Feb 13, 2013)

*NYT: EPA Orders VW to recall nearly 500,000 vehicles*



Chilcoot said:


> How the New York Times website looks right now:


Of course the liberal NYT would be out supporting Obama and his friends at Government Motors!!


----------



## Ambrose Wolfinger (Feb 21, 2005)

I asked this a while back, but it seemed to get lost - How does this affect companies who produce aftermarket software for TDI vehicles? What are the emissions on a chipped vs non chipped TDI? For that matter, will this have a negative impact on all aftermarket tuners? Since it's been shown it's easy to cheat regulations with clever software tricks, will this lead to greater regulations on "chip" tuners?


----------



## Aw614 (May 9, 2001)

Just wondering do the 2015s tdis and up models use a different non bosch ecu like the gen3 ea888 models? I think it was Siemens instead but I can't recall, and Im guessing if they do use a new ecu they may still have the code to simulate the test


----------



## A&F (Feb 13, 2013)

bill1975 said:


> I asked this a while back, but it seemed to get lost - How does this affect companies who produce aftermarket software for TDI vehicles? What are the emissions on a chipped vs non chipped TDI? For that matter, will this have a negative impact on all aftermarket tuners? Since it's been shown it's easy to cheat regulations with clever software tricks, will this lead to greater regulations on "chip" tuners?


Why would it? They are already violating federal law...


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

MGQ said:


> Is it really so important for you to have some loyal fans not want to accept it?


I'm here for the LOLs (I find the mental gymnastics attempting to shift the blame amusing)



> And honestly it does open up the discussion about how much is enough, how clean is clean, how efficient is efficient? we could simply legislate for a 90% gain every 20 years and hope technology can keep up and/or people's expectations and norms of comfort are lowered until we are riding segways like we mostly probably should be as a society.


That's shifting the goalposts though. Was anyone questioning the EPA Tier 2 Bin 5 federal standard, finalized in *1999* and phased in from 2004-2009 until now? These aren't some extreme new 2016 model year regulations, these are standards that a "SULEV" vehicle from nearly 15 years ago was meeting.


----------



## leontief (Nov 17, 2008)

cary67 said:


> Yeah, actually I do - the CARB themselves said this.
> 
> http://www.greencarreports.com/news...-up-gross-polluter-vehicle-retirement-program
> 
> ...


Perhaps you missed this part "Those vehicles were built before 1995..." 

The vast majority of cars in CA used as DD that contribute to the results quoted in that article are between 1985-1995. Do you know how many cars pre-1976 are still registered in CA? Of the ~3 million pre-1995 cars mentioned in the article, pre-1976 cars make up less than 400,000, so in reality most of those gross polluters are actually having to pass smog every other year. The emission requirements they have to meet are just so outdated that they pollute so much more than newer cars, despite meeting the requirements.


----------



## Cousin Eddie (Dec 17, 2005)

bill1975 said:


> I asked this a while back, but it seemed to get lost - How does this affect companies who produce aftermarket software for TDI vehicles? What are the emissions on a chipped vs non chipped TDI? For that matter, will this have a negative impact on all aftermarket tuners? Since it's been shown it's easy to cheat regulations with clever software tricks, will this lead to greater regulations on "chip" tuners?


A small percentage of buyers chip their cars. So it's not a huge concern to the gov't. 

Most people are smart enough that if they want a faster car they go buy a faster car, not tart up some econobox Volkswagen.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Cousin Eddie said:


>


I could watch this all day long :laugh:


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

bill1975 said:


> I asked this a while back, but it seemed to get lost - How does this affect companies who produce aftermarket software for TDI vehicles? What are the emissions on a chipped vs non chipped TDI? For that matter, will this have a negative impact on all aftermarket tuners? Since it's been shown it's easy to cheat regulations with clever software tricks, will this lead to greater regulations on "chip" tuners?





A&F said:


> Why would it? They are already violating federal law...


Yeah, this.


----------



## TangoRed (Sep 7, 2005)

Cousin Eddie said:


>


I completely forgot that incident happened. The coach that got hit and stayed on the cart sued in 2013 for emotional anguish, 2 years after the original incident.


----------



## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

Cousin Eddie said:


> A small percentage of buyers chip their cars. So it's not a huge concern to the gov't.
> 
> Most people are smart enough that if they want a faster car they go buy a faster car, not tart up some econobox Volkswagen.


that made my day. I audibly laughed out loud at work..


----------



## VWVan (Feb 17, 2000)

Chilcoot said:


> How the New York Times website looks right now:


There is a greek island full of ******? sweet.

That gif made me laugh.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Cousin Eddie said:


>


I have no idea what is going on here but I have watched this for about 5 minutes now. WTH is going on here? And someone sued over it?


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

TangoRed said:


> I completely forgot that incident happened. The coach that got hit and stayed on the cart sued in 2013 for emotional anguish, 2 years after the original incident.


The best part is when he goes "Autobots, roll out!"


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

A&F said:


> Of course the liberal NYT would be out supporting Obama and his friends at Government Motors!!


Okay, seems a little childish that someone's need for a conspiracy would run so deep, but here you go.

Fox News, right now.


----------



## surefooted (May 21, 2001)

MonsterM said:


> I know the sales of new TDI models have been stopped but what about a used 2014 TDI? Are there states that it would pass emission testing? This can be a great time to score a deal on a barely used TDI.


Can't get one from VW though so all CPO are out the door. No VW dealer can sell a 4cyl TDI from 2009-2015 new or used.


----------



## ATL_Av8r (Oct 17, 2002)

VWVan said:


> There is a greek island full of ******? sweet.


Subaru is involved now? Good god man...when will it end?


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

MCTB said:


> I have no idea what is going on here but I have watched this for about 5 minutes now. WTH is going on here? And someone sued over it?


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/hs-coach-sues-cowboys-stadium-runaway-cart-article-1.1314087


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Cousin Eddie said:


> A small percentage of buyers chip their cars. So it's not a huge concern to the gov't.
> 
> Most people are smart enough that if they want a faster car they go buy a faster car, not tart up some econobox Volkswagen.


Why do I keep hearing "Yakkity Sax"?


----------



## Seabird (Feb 8, 2002)

Chilcoot said:


> Okay, seems a little childish that someone's need for a conspiracy would run so deep, but here you go.


I think he was kidding. :laugh:















I hope he was kidding. :sly:


----------



## Rocco! (Mar 4, 2011)

This is now on Wikipedia's main page as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_common-rail_TDI_diesel_engine_emissions_scandal


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Rocco! said:


> This is now on Wikipedia's main page as well.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_common-rail_TDI_diesel_engine_emissions_scandal


Please let TCL troll that page.
Please let TCL troll that page.
Please let TCL troll that page.
Please let TCL troll that page.
Please let TCL troll that page.
Please let TCL troll that page.

Pleeeeeeaaaaaassssssseee :laugh:


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Rocco! said:


> This is now on Wikipedia's main page as well.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_common-rail_TDI_diesel_engine_emissions_scandal


Didn't know wiki handled breaking news now


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

MCTB said:


> I have no idea what is going on here but I have watched this for about 5 minutes now. WTH is going on here? And someone sued over it?


I can't stop laughing at it. I'm going to hades! :laugh:


----------



## TnTNYC (Aug 1, 2012)

*Feeding the frenzy*

"Let's be clear about this. Our company was dishonest. With the EPA, and the California Air Resources Board, and with all of you. And in my German words, we have totally screwed up."
- Michael Horn, Head of Volkswagen's U.S. division

But...

"It would be wrong to place the hard and honest work of 600,000 people under general suspicion because of the grave mistakes of a few."
- Martin Winterkorn, CEO

And his contract is up for renewal Friday. And he isn't stepping down, as of this moment. So...who's to blame? Not the workers, not the senior brass. Probably some senior-ish management taking this one on the chin, but not the real signal callers.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

DJMRDARK said:


> I can't stop laughing at it. I'm going to hades! :laugh:


Can't be worse than Dallas.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

A&F said:


> Of course the liberal NYT would be out supporting Obama and his friends at Government Motors!!


Nothing like the internet to bring out the crazies. You DO realize it is VW who is admitting they committed the crime, right? Where in that does it involve Obama, or liberals, or politics? You nutty boy. :screwy:


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Can't be worse than Dallas.


Show me.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Seabird said:


> I think he was kidding. :laugh:
> 
> I hope he was kidding. :sly:


I hope you're right, and I definitely could be wrong. I have trouble distinguishing between the outrageous defenses some have made of VW and the outrageous parodies of the outrageous defenses some have made of VW.

Again: I love my TDI, and like to cheer for VW. But it sickens me to think my car and that company are parts of the problem rather than the solution.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

DJMRDARK said:


> Nothing like the internet to bring out the crazies. You DO realize it is VW who is admitting they committed the crime, right? Where in that does it involve Obama, or liberals, or politics? You nutty boy. :screwy:


Of course, the CEO who made this admission was gone the next day. Almost as if he _knew_ what was going to happen. He was a puppet for Obama and the EPA all along!








Chilcoot said:


> Again: I love my TDI, and like to cheer for VW. But it sickens me to think my car and that company are parts of the problem rather than the solution.


This :thumbup:


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

TnTNYC said:


> And his contract is up for renewal Friday. And he isn't stepping down, as of this moment. So...who's to blame? Not the workers, not the senior brass. Probably some senior-ish management taking this one on the chin, but not the real signal callers.


When you are chief executive of a company and an incident like this (which your leadership absolutely should have avoided) tarnishes the brand image cultivated over decades and manages to wipe out more than 25% of the shareholder value in under a week, you do not get to keep your job.

Winterkorn fell on his sword with this morning's video, even if it wasn't announced. This will quickly become someone else's mess to clean up. 

>8^)
ER


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

atomicalex said:


> You know who was in the position to approve this? Dr Piech.
> 
> That would account for Winterkorn's language in the statement, along with his manner.
> 
> ...





Peloton25 said:


> When you are chief executive of a company and an incident like this (which your leadership absolutely should have avoided) tarnishes the brand image cultivated over decades and manages to wipe out more than 25% of the shareholder value in under a week, you do not get to keep your job.
> 
> Winterkorn fell on his sword with this morning's video, even if it wasn't announced. This will quickly become someone else's mess to clean up.
> 
> ...


I don't know which of these competing narratives will come true, but I can't ****ing wait to find out!


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Ross1013 said:


> I don't know which of these competing narratives will come true, but I can't ****ing wait to find out!


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

Rabbit5GTI said:


>


That's pretty much how I feel.

I sort of hope atomicalex's take is the correct one, though that's no slight to Peloton and I'm glad this thread dragged him out of whatever private McLaren forum he's been on


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

Two sides to this from us loyal VW and TDI owners...

The Wrath of Volkswagen’s Drivers



NYTimes said:


> A big selling point for diesel has been that it promises that drivers can get fuel economy without sacrificing speed or torque, while eliminating the infamous bugs of the past. Before Mr. Decker bought his Volkswagen, he considered a Toyota Prius hybrid. It was rated by the government at 51 miles per gallon in the city and 48 m.p.g. on the highway. But it wasn’t very interesting to drive, he said.
> 
> “It was kind of slushy on the road; it wasn’t very peppy,” Mr. Decker said.
> 
> ...


Meanwhile, on Twitter, check out this hashtag of support. Must've come from TDIClub.


----------



## A&F (Feb 13, 2013)

DJMRDARK said:


> Nothing like the internet to bring out the crazies. You DO realize it is VW who is admitting they committed the crime, right? Where in that does it involve Obama, or liberals, or politics? You nutty boy. :screwy:


It's called sarcasm.

Follow my comments earlier and it would be very clear.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

A&F said:


> It's called sarcasm.
> 
> Follow my comments earlier and it would be very clear.


Apologies. So much nuttiness is in these threads its hard to tell. :laugh:


----------



## whitealltrac (Nov 10, 2008)

*.......................*

Now I know why Toyota has little to no interest on doing diesels here in USA........I think this is bigger than VW / Audi.......

Flame suit on and opcorn: ready! :laugh:


----------



## A&F (Feb 13, 2013)

DJMRDARK said:


> Apologies. So much nuttiness is in these threads its hard to tell. :laugh:


I know. It's been beyond entertaining.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

whitealltrac said:


> Now I know why Toyota has little to no interest on doing diesels here in USA........I think this is bigger than VW / Audi.......
> 
> Flame suit on and opcorn: ready! :laugh:


The only question right now is if GM is guilty. They are basically the only other diesel small car in the US market.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

A&F said:


> I know. It's been beyond entertaining.


True. I supposed to be mastering Chef and Git and instead I'm pumping techno and laughing my ass off to these posts. Damn gif still has me going. :laugh:


----------



## ATL_Av8r (Oct 17, 2002)

DJMRDARK said:


> The only question right now is if GM is guilty. They are basically the only other diesel small car in the US market.


GM's solution was ingenious....install ignition switches that turn the car off occasionally thereby instantly achieving zero emissions!


----------



## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Please let TCL troll that page.
> Please let TCL troll that page.
> Please let TCL troll that page.
> Please let TCL troll that page.
> ...



that was quick



> VWVortex Reactions[edit]
> 
> Fans of VW have caused a thread on The Car Lounge section notorious Volkswagen fan website VWVortex to spiral out of control to the tune of 51 pages as of |date=September 21, 2015. Comments made by users such as Ross1013 stating such nonsense such as "Would love to see this be the nail in diesel's coffin." [16] show how emotional this scandal is truly becoming.


----------



## Harpoon (Jan 5, 2008)

MXTHOR3 said:


> To me this just shows the EPA tests are **** and not very accurate (At least for diesels).. After about 20,000 miles of break-in, a TDI should easily gain 2-3 mpg on average.


Why would this be?


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

g-man_ae said:


> Two sides to this from us loyal VW and TDI owners...
> 
> The Wrath of Volkswagen’s Drivers


Meh. HERE is where the entertainment lives:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=448053

Artist's impression of a typical VW TDI outside the test lab:


----------



## surefooted (May 21, 2001)

Rocco! said:


> This is now on Wikipedia's main page as well.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_common-rail_TDI_diesel_engine_emissions_scandal





Rabbit5GTI said:


> Please let TCL troll that page.
> Please let TCL troll that page.
> Please let TCL troll that page.
> Please let TCL troll that page.
> ...


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

DasCC said:


> that was quick





surefooted said:


>


YES!!!


----------



## ATL_Av8r (Oct 17, 2002)

DasCC said:


> that was quick


aaaaand moderated



> 20:13, 22 September 2015‎ McDoobAU93 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (14,678 bytes) (-762)‎ . . (→‎VWVortex Reactions: Forum posts not notable; *add back when an independent news agency mentions this*) (undo)


You hear that, Jalopnik?


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Hahahahahhahaaaa....okay thats it. I can't take it anymore. I'm out. Gotta stop laughing and get work down.

You guys are pure gold. :beer:


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

ATL_Av8r said:


> aaaaand moderated


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

Cooper said:


> I thought the same thing. He's polishing his resume.
> 
> I expect employees may have been told to refrain from commenting on social media on this topic.


I advised the management staff in a meeting yesterday to keep their mouths shut about this, online, over the phone, via email, etc. Its a factory issue, and not a franchise issue. 

The long and the short of it is that like anytime there's a stop sale, the sun will come up tomorrow, the store will open, and we'll continue to sell non TDI cars just fine. We were 26th in the nation last month, and it wasn't due to TDI sales. These things happen from time to time, and it always gets worked out. I'm not worried in the least bit. 

As for me, I'm a consultant these days across 11 stores. Something hitting one store doesn't change my life. My week is going along as usual, meeting after meeting of cash flow, training, inventory control, forecasting, training management, marketing, ROI targets, building the size of our group, etc. 

At the dealer level we watch out for situations like this and keep our income streams diverse, so an issue with one model won't hurt the overall store. When we rely too heavily on the profitability of one car, rather than just riding the gravy train we immediately find other sources of income. Successful businesses are proactive and not reactive, which is why I'm not worried about my VW store in the least bit. They'll be just fine. 

And to quote my favorite character from Alabama, and that's all I've got to say about that.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

cary67 said:


> Oh, wait, you don't even own a TDI. You're just a troll.





cary67 said:


> It's funny how most of the people with the snarky responses on here don't even actually own one of the affected vehicles. A lot of them have only been members here for a couple of years, yet have tens of thousands of posts....hmmm.


Why can't non-TDi owners be involved? This is going to end up affecting so much more than just TDi owners, just wait. :thumbdown:


----------



## esrballa (Oct 8, 2008)

This thread. :laugh:

Id like to thank the apologists and crazies for the laughs. Bless you and your tin foil.


----------



## pasateando (Mar 19, 2002)

and vw.com makes no mention of any of this scandal:

http://www.vw.com/content/vwcom/en/social-news.html


----------



## compy222 (Apr 8, 2005)

it's going to be a long night reading 52 pages of this...but wow VW, wow. :laugh:


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

pasateando said:


> and vw.com makes no mention of any of this scandal:
> 
> http://www.vw.com/content/vwcom/en/social-news.html


The website has a Defeat device to hide bad news.


----------



## wolfcastle (Jul 28, 2006)

compy222 said:


> it's going to be a long night reading 52 pages of this...but wow VW, wow. :laugh:


Really not worth it honestly


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

wolfcastle said:


> Really not worth it honestly


Just search "htr" in this thread alone and you're golden.


----------



## VarianceVQ (Jun 26, 2005)

Guess we know why Audi ditched "Truth in Engineering" a few months back.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> I advised the management staff in a meeting yesterday to keep their mouths shut about this, online, over the phone, via email, etc. Its a factory issue, and not a franchise issue.
> 
> The long and the short of it is that like anytime there's a stop sale, the sun will come up tomorrow, the store will open, and we'll continue to sell non TDI cars just fine. We were 26th in the nation last month, and it wasn't due to TDI sales. These things happen from time to time, and it always gets worked out. I'm not worried in the least bit.
> 
> ...


I'm glad it isn't having an effect on you personally, Brendan. :beer:

You are wise to tell everyone to clam up, as hard as that'll be for them. I disagree that "these things happen from time to time", though. This is unprecedented. Sure, there have been fiascos such as the ignition switch debacle, but this? This is different. It's a decision from the get-go to behave badly, so I suppose you could say that this is is a proactive, rather than a reactive scandalous situation. 

The long term? It'll be a big black eye to VW's history, but short and mid term will be quite painful for them and therefore the dealers. This isn't going away soon, by any stretch.


----------



## genjy (Aug 7, 2005)

esrballa said:


> This thread. :laugh:
> 
> Id like to thank the apologists and crazies for the laughs. Bless you and your tin foil.


It's insane how some people place a dishonest foreign car company above the environment and the laws of their own country. :screwy:


----------



## A&F (Feb 13, 2013)

Air and water do mix said:


> I'm glad it isn't having an effect on you personally, Brendan. :beer:
> 
> You are wise to tell everyone to clam up, as hard as that'll be for them. I disagree that "these things happen from time to time", though. This is unprecedented. Sure, there have been fiascos such as the ignition switch debacle, but this? This is different. It's a decision from the get-go to behave badly, so I suppose you could say that this is is a proactive, rather than a reactive scandalous situation.
> 
> The long term? It'll be a big black eye to VW's history, but short and mid term will be quite painful for them and therefore the dealers. This isn't going away soon, by any stretch.


The real question is... How much does Joe-Schmoo care?

Answer? None

People still fill up at BP stations, they still buy GMs, Toyotas and Fords. They still shop at Walmart and eat Fast Food.

Audi 5000?

****, Audi barely offered anything of interest to anyone until the B5 A4.... Then look what happened. Their product line was just unappealing.

The real question is, who are the Diesel VW buyers? Are they thrifty greenies that will now be firmly lodged in the bosom of the Prius? Or are they die-hard dubbers that will demand a TT-RS and settle for a Jetta Wagon?


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Look on the bright side.
Everybody is finally talking about VW.


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

Air and water do mix said:


> I'm glad it isn't having an effect on you personally, Brendan. :beer:


Thanks. :beer::thumbup:



Air and water do mix said:


> You are wise to tell everyone to clam up, as hard as that'll be for them. I disagree that "these things happen from time to time", though.


I'm not going to get into the particulars of this stop sale, but what I meant by "these things happen from time to time" is a stop sale in general. They happen, they get resolved, and life goes on. It's honestly much more dramatic in TCL than in person. :laugh::laugh:


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

ATL_Av8r said:


> aaaaand moderated
> 
> 
> 
> You hear that, Jalopnik?


Jalopnik could actually be useful for something?


----------



## wolfcastle (Jul 28, 2006)

A&F said:


> The real question is... How much does Joe-Schmoo care?
> 
> Answer? None
> 
> ...


I do tend to agree....this too shall pass. As much as the people are annoying who defend VW's action and say its a conspiracy etc....there are those who are equally annoying saying that VW will turn into the new Daewoo or fall off the face of the Earth entirely. 

Both sides of that coin involve some serous wishful thinking.


----------



## Doug Butabi (Oct 15, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I advised the management staff in a meeting yesterday to keep their mouths shut about this, online, over the phone, via email, etc. Its a factory issue, and not a franchise issue.
> 
> The long and the short of it is that like anytime there's a stop sale, the sun will come up tomorrow, the store will open, and we'll continue to sell non TDI cars just fine. We were 26th in the nation last month, and it wasn't due to TDI sales. These things happen from time to time, and it always gets worked out. I'm not worried in the least bit.
> 
> ...


You're a boss, dude. :thumbup:


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

Air and water do mix said:


> I'm glad it isn't having an effect on you personally, Brendan. :beer:


Same here, hoping all of our salesmen, managers, "consultants" (Oooo, fancy!  ), techs and engineers make it through the cluster of facks coming down. :thumbup:

Otherwise, it's all of us "industry outsiders" making stuff up will-nilly.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

pasateando said:


> and vw.com makes no mention of any of this scandal:
> 
> http://www.vw.com/content/vwcom/en/social-news.html





GoHomePossum said:


> The website has a Defeat device to hide bad news.


Internet Winner of the Day :laugh: :thumbup:


----------



## MGQ (Apr 16, 2002)

Mike! said:


> That's shifting the goalposts though. Was anyone questioning the EPA Tier 2 Bin 5 federal standard, finalized in *1999* and phased in from 2004-2009 until now? These aren't some extreme new 2016 model year regulations, these are standards that a "SULEV" vehicle from nearly 15 years ago was meeting.


By definition, yes it is moving the goalposts. As for whether or not anyone was questioning it, there has been lots and lots of discussion about the feasibility of diesel emissions standards ever since urea tanks in diesel engine passenger cars became a thing.


----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

DJMRDARK said:


> The only question right now is if GM is guilty. They are basically the only other diesel small car in the US market.


GM already had their emissions defeat device scandal in 1995. Interestingly it also involved about 500,000 cars in the US. I'll bet they decided to sit this one out.


----------



## Tuono5740 (Nov 23, 2011)

gohomepossum said:


> the website has a defeat device to hide bad news.


/thread


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> I advised the management staff in a meeting yesterday to keep their mouths shut about this, online, over the phone, via email, etc. Its a factory issue, and not a franchise issue.


So customer comes in and says, hey what's going on with the TDI models? What did you advise staff to say? "Gee, don't know what you're talking about..." 

Factory issues _are_ franchise issues and vice versa. No element of the brand is an island. 

Agree about keeping your revenue streams diverse and congrats about managing 11 brands and being 26th in the nation, but you can't just burry your head in the sand when a customer asks a question about the product you sell.


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

Doug Butabi said:


> You're a boss, dude. :thumbup:


I aim to please. :laugh: 



Accidental L8 apex said:


> Same here, hoping all of our salesmen, managers, "consultants" (Oooo, fancy!  ), techs and engineers make it through the cluster of facks coming down. :thumbup:
> 
> Otherwise, it's all of us "industry outsiders" making stuff up will-nilly.












:laugh::laugh:

We'll all be fine.


----------



## P-Body (Mar 18, 2007)

Interesting (to me) anecdote.

I work for a large company. Very large. A few years ago, there was a corporate decision made to switch to VW for all fleet vehicles - and all of the vehicles were diesel equipped. The specific reasoning behind it was based around fuel economy and being better for the environment. They even had a big internal communication about the good they were doing by going with this decision, even though it meant some more expense up front.

Well, the news hit yesterday and, well, not very happy is the way I would describe the senior VP of sales. They've already decided to abandon the brand moving forward.

This news, and after hearing the CBC news lambaste VW all of last night, I suspect this is going to get really really really ugly before it gets any prettier.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

GoHomePossum said:


> The website has a Defeat device to hide bad news.


:heart: :laugh:


----------



## surefooted (May 21, 2001)

:laugh:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks. :beer::thumbup:


You're welcome.




[email protected] said:


> I'm not going to get into the particulars of this stop sale, but what I meant by "these things happen from time to time" is a stop sale in general. They happen, they get resolved, and life goes on. It's honestly much more dramatic in TCL than in person. :laugh::laugh:


Gotcha.


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

Hawk said:


> So customer comes in and says, hey what's going on with the TDI models? What did you advise staff to say? "Gee, don't know what you're talking about..."
> 
> Factory issues _are_ franchise issues and vice versa. No element of the brand is an island.
> 
> Agree about keeping your revenue streams diverse and congrats about managing 11 brands and being 26th in the nation, but you can't just burry your head in the sand when a customer asks a question about the product you sell.


It's a really easy conversation. "TDI models are not currently offered for sale, under the instructions of the factory. If you have any further questions regarding the issue, please call VW customer care at 1 (800) 822-8987, and they'll be more than happy to explain everything. In the mean time, if you want to leave your contact information, we'll reach out to you to schedule a test drive once the TDI models are available again."

It's not about burying our heads it the sand; it's about explaining to the customer that there is a stop sell order by the factory, so call the factory if you have any questions.


----------



## PsyberVW (Jul 10, 2000)

MylesPH1 said:


> ..and I can't wait to hear the story on how they actually proved this.
> 
> I can't imagine my state's air resource board is going to be very lenient on this. They'll almost certainly go above and beyond the EPA's response.


I am pissed off about it. I would impose import restrictions on VAG across the board to show this isn't a game to be mesed with. Then I would ask any automaker to voluntarily admit doing the same, and offering a slight leniency in penalty for it. But if I offer and you don't take the offer, AND you are found to be guilty - I would double the penalty.

This is an absolute lack of integrity and a slap in the face of public, market, national, international trust.


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

Turbio! said:


> You could say this about just about any CAA violation. Overall effects are in aggregate, not attributable to any one point source. That doesn't get individual point sources off the hook when they violate the law, then bull**** EPA about it for a few years, then finally decide to eat a gun in their bunker when they can't deny the tanks are rolling in anymore.


Disturbingly accurate analogy *shivers*


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)




----------



## PsyberVW (Jul 10, 2000)

P-Body said:


> Interesting (to me) anecdote.
> 
> I work for a large company. Very large. A few years ago, there was a corporate decision made to switch to VW for all fleet vehicles - and all of the vehicles were diesel equipped. The specific reasoning behind it was based around fuel economy and being better for the environment. They even had a big internal communication about the good they were doing by going with this decision, even though it meant some more expense up front.
> 
> ...


I would tally the years/miles in service and send VW a bill for the damages. 

VW should be slapped with fines from every applicable agency - from FDA to Trade Commission. The total collected by the fines should be used to buy-back every veichle and have it recycled.


----------



## surefooted (May 21, 2001)

PsyberVW said:


> I would tally the years/miles in service and send VW a bill for the damages.
> 
> VW should be slapped with fines from every applicable agency - from FDA to Trade Commission. The total collected by the fines should be used to buy-back every veichle and have it recycled.


No. You fine VW *AND STILL* make them buyback every vehicle and scrap them.


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)

Flashback:

Pope Benedict: "My people tell me that you and Mr. Winterkorn have some questions about one of the 'thou shalt not' things?"

Piech: "Yes Holy Father. By the way, did I mention we brought you a new Phaeton?"


----------



## PsyberVW (Jul 10, 2000)

rstolz said:


> katrina clean up?.... uhhhhh Katrina was 2005, The BP spill was 2010. about the only similarity is that they both occurred in the Gulf.


Now we have to clean up the Gulf TDi oil spill.. :laugh:


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

surefooted said:


> No. You fine VW *AND STILL* make them buyback every vehicle and scrap them.


Give the scrap money to the owner so they can buy themselves a nice mk1/mk2/mk3 diesel


----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

GM wasn't forced to scrap the polluting cars. They were forced to buy school busses or something like that if I recall. The same thing will probably happen here. TDI owners can keep their cars, VW must implement a software fix (if they can), and they'll "offset" the pollution with some other program. And then they'll be under severe oversight for no less than 10 years.


----------



## Sledge (May 15, 2005)

surefooted said:


> No. You fine VW *AND STILL* make them buyback every vehicle and scrap them.


No. You make VW recall the cars and install an AdBlue system that takes up a quarter of the trunk


----------



## wolfcastle (Jul 28, 2006)

1985Jetta said:


> Give the scrap money to the owner so they can buy themselves a nice mk1/mk2/mk3 diesel


omg....people who buy new VW's are such nancies about cars. A lot of them have the idea in their head that these cars are Audi's or something and complain any time they hear a little rattle or squeak. Or my favorite on the mk6 forums is how people complain that the chassis is not stiff enough...then they post another thread asking something stupid like if upgrading to Audi r8 coil packs is a good idea?? wtf 

mk3's and below definitely make someone appreciate the newer tech. My mk2 is such a rattlebox 

Sorry for the rant....i really dislike most people who are buying newer VW's....especially the TDI crowd. Kind of looking forward to this if VW ends the TDI lineup and brings some cars that are actually interesting other than the GTI and Golf R. Wishful thinking.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

eweu said:


> GM wasn't forced to scrap the polluting cars. They were forced to buy school busses or something like that if I recall. The same thing will probably happen here. TDI owners can keep their cars, VW must implement a software fix (if they can), and they'll "offset" the pollution with some other program. And then they'll be under severe oversight for no less than 10 years.


THIS.

carbon emissions offsets, fines, donation/fund for green energy, etc, $xK credit to current owners......

this company is nearly 3% of German GDP.....they employ nearly 800,000 germans, and countless others around the world.

buyback will be an option, but not the only one.


----------



## A&F (Feb 13, 2013)

PsyberVW said:


> Now we have to clean up the *Golf* TDi oil spill.. :laugh:


Fixed that


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

surefooted said:


> make them buyback every vehicle and scrap them.


Is the government really going to force people to sell back their cars because of something they had nothing to do with? Highly unlikely.. They will attempt to fix them to meet compliance as best they can, perhaps introduce a voluntary buyback program for newer models or provide some sort of monetary compensation to the owners of older models, and get fined heavily. Wouldn't surprise me to see the value of these cars rise over time as diesels are likely now a thing of the past in the US.

Not surprisingly, the usual VW trolls are off the rails in this thread with the hyperbole


----------



## Tuono5740 (Nov 23, 2011)

wolfcastle said:


> omg....people who buy new VW's are such nancies about cars. A lot of them have the idea in their head that these cars are Audi's or something and complain any time they hear a little rattle or squeak. Or my favorite on the mk6 forums is how people complain that the chassis is not stiff enough...then they post another thread asking something stupid like if upgrading to Audi r8 coil packs is a good idea?? wtf
> 
> mk3's and below definitely make someone appreciate the newer tech. My mk2 is such a rattlebox
> 
> Sorry for the rant....i really dislike most people who are buying newer VW's....especially the TDI crowd. Kind of looking forward to this if VW ends the TDI lineup and brings some cars that are actually interesting other than the GTI and Golf R. Wishful thinking.


Your contribution is noted... as adding zero value to the discussion.

On topic though, what about the owners who leased their vehicle with intent of purchasing(in the world of what-ifs)? Wife leased a 2013 GTI and has got about 4,000 miles over the lease limit knowing we where going to purchase in November. It got me thinking about what if our vehicles were in swapped places. Would she simply be liable to return the vehicle back to VW afterwards and pay for the extra miles if a buyback program ever happened? Or would VW simply let her out of the lease at no cost to her as goodwill?


----------



## 2000JettaGLXVR6 (Oct 17, 2002)

In 2010, I watched BP stock plummit, knew it would recover and sank some major cash into it. Doing the same thing right now with VW. Easy money.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

2000JettaGLXVR6 said:


> In 2010, I watched BP stock plummit, knew it would recover and sank some major cash into it. Doing the same thing right now with VW. Easy money.


:thumbup:


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

caj1 said:


> Is the government really going to force people to sell back their cars because of something they had nothing to do with? Highly unlikely.. They will attempt to fix them to meet compliance as best they can, perhaps introduce a voluntary buyback program for newer models or provide some sort of monetary compensation to the owners of older models, and get fined heavily. Wouldn't surprise me to see the value of these cars rise over time as diesels are likely now a thing of the past in the US.
> 
> Not surprisingly, the usual VW trolls are off the rails in this thread with the hyperbole


I'd welcome a buyback, but replacing my vehicle is damn near impossible. There are countless sedans, crossovers and pickups on the market. But the JSW/GSW is a unique blend of fuel efficiency, performance/handling, spaciousness, versatility and reasonableness. 

About the only comparable vehicle would be the 328d Touring, but that's $$$ and comes with the maintenance requirements of owning a BMW. 

This just sucks all around.


----------



## oldster1 (Oct 24, 2011)

*R.i.p. Vw*

Over 7 billion to fix the fraud. Add in another 20 billion for the shareholder lawsuits over fraud and destroying company value. An other 10 billion paid in legal fees for the company, executive officers, board members and engineers that colluded, or happily slept at the switch.

Then there will be fines of some sort from every country where they sold cars. And just who will buy this company since it will require assumption of liability, unless it has a stake driven through its heart in a complete bankruptcy.


----------



## A&F (Feb 13, 2013)

*NYT: EPA Orders VW to recall nearly 500,000 vehicles*



caj1 said:


> Is the government really going to force people to sell back their cars because of something they had nothing to do with? Highly unlikely..












Many of these owners claimed to be victims of unscrupulous sellers as well.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

2000JettaGLXVR6 said:


> In 2010, I watched BP stock plummit, knew it would recover and sank some major cash into it. Doing the same thing right now with VW. Easy money.


I would wait a little longer before buying. I highly doubt the bottom has hit.


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

Do dealers have to notify you they're going to do a software flash/patch on your car?


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Hawk said:


> Do dealers have to notify you they're going to do a software flash/patch on your car?


no, the manufacturer will (though registration)

EDIT: no the dealer, per the EULA will update as necessary without your consent.....and I believe if you do bring it in, they HAVE TO BY LAW perform the update if it's emissions related.


----------



## VarianceVQ (Jun 26, 2005)

2000JettaGLXVR6 said:


> In 2010, I watched BP stock plummit, knew it would recover and sank some major cash into it. Doing the same thing right now with VW. Easy money.


I missed the Ford stock fire sale years ago. and while this opportunity is nowhere near as good as that, I am also seeing if an opportunity arises. VKLAY?

If the V6 TDIs come up dirty, too... It's going to be the saddest Oktoberfest ever for VW execs.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

*NYT: EPA Orders VW to recall nearly 500,000 vehicles*



whitealltrac said:


> Now I know why Toyota has little to no interest on doing diesels here in USA........I think this is bigger than VW / Audi.......
> 
> Flame suit on and opcorn: ready! :laugh:


Not just Toyota, but other manufactures as well. Diesels never sold well in the U.S. until gas prices exploded. Then the marketing "clean diesels" also helped them become more popular. But a lot of companies do make diesels and sell them elsewhere. Europeans love them, because gas is expensive. So you could get a Toyota diesel there. It would be interesting to drive a Subaru diesel.

Edit: I think Toyota did sell diesels in the U.S. a long time ago.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

VarianceVQ said:


> I missed the Ford stock fire sale years ago. and while this opportunity is nowhere near as good as that, I am also seeing if an opportunity arises. VKLAY?
> 
> *If the V6 TDIs come up dirty, too*... It's going to be the saddest Oktoberfest ever for VW execs.


I'm hoping not, since I own one....and since the cars in question have DON'T have urea injection, I'm going to assume the V6's are OK....... :fingercrossed:


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

You'reDrunk said:


> no, the manufacturer will (though registration)
> 
> EDIT: no the dealer, per the EULA will update as necessary without your consent.....and I believe if you do bring it in, they HAVE TO BY LAW perform the update if it's emissions related.


We got a notice from VWoA and did it. I didn't notice any difference.


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

2ohgti said:


> We got a notice from VWoA and did it. I didn't notice any difference.


You already got this fixed?


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

You'reDrunk said:


> If you do bring it in, they have to by law perform the update if it's emissions related.


Even if you're screaming at them not to flash your car???


----------



## Basil Fawlty (Sep 7, 2003)

mk4 for life!


----------



## Slipstream (Feb 8, 2002)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> I would wait a little longer before buying. I highly doubt the bottom has hit.


:thumbup:

Should we be watching VLKAY or VOW?


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

A&F said:


> The real question is... How much does Joe-Schmoo care?
> 
> Answer? None


Respectfully disagree.

Joe Schmoe (average US citizen) deeply cares about one thing: Good faith attempt to follow the spirit/intent of the Law. Will Joe Schmoe care about the details of the scandal? No. 

Joe will understand that VW deliberately and systematically violated public and private trust for YEARS and not need to hear anything more to know that it is time to pick up his torch and/or pitchfork and storm the castle.


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Thanks. :beer::thumbup:
> 
> I'm not going to get into the particulars of this stop sale, but what I meant by "these things happen from time to time" is a stop sale in general. They happen, they get resolved, and life goes on. It's honestly much more dramatic in TCL than in person. :laugh::laugh:


With respect, way too soon to call. Only now is this BEGINNING to hit the mainstream, the peak of this scandal probably has a week or two more before it hits in earnest.

If I were you I would be prepping for the worst forward looking 12 months in history (only 12 if you're lucky). Your association with VW will very likely drag your other co-located brands down.


----------



## BetterByDesign (Sep 7, 2004)

Anyone feeling apprehensive about even being seen driving a VW/Audi product right now?

I don't want treehuggers keying my car.


----------



## VarianceVQ (Jun 26, 2005)

Slipstream said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> Should we be watching VLKAY or VOW?


Incidentally, the first suggestion Google gives me upon entering "VW" or "Volkswagen" is followed by "stock".


----------



## OrdinaryGirl (Mar 16, 2005)

BetterByDesign said:


> Anyone feeling apprehensive about even being seen driving a VW/Audi product right now?
> 
> I don't want treehuggers keying my car.


Driving an older diesel has already drawn the ire of the local prius drivers in my neighbourhood, so I'm ready.


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

Mazda 3s said:


> I'd welcome a buyback, but replacing my vehicle is damn near impossible. There are countless sedans, crossovers and pickups on the market. But the JSW/GSW is a unique blend of fuel efficiency, performance/handling, spaciousness, versatility and reasonableness.


It's a freaking wagon. Here ya go:


----------



## absoluteczech (Sep 13, 2006)

Waterfan said:


> If I were you I would be prepping for the worst forward looking 12 months in history (only 12 if you're lucky). Your association with VW will very likely drag your other co-located brands down.













People were buying Toyota's with the whole stuck accelerator still and that PR was a lot worse...


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Hawk said:


> Even if you're screaming at them not to flash your car???


I believe so....again, the EULA is clear YOU DON'T OWN the software in the ECU in the car, VW does. Also, if there are emissions updates (under federal law), they are required to install them.....

you're best bet if you are NOT wanting the new software, stop taking it to the dealer.


----------



## CostcoPizza (Jan 20, 2008)

Waterfan said:


> With respect, way too soon to call. Only now is this BEGINNING to hit the mainstream, the peak of this scandal probably has a week or two more before it hits in earnest.
> 
> If I were you I would be prepping for the worst forward looking 12 months in history (only 12 if you're lucky). Your association with *VW will very likely drag your other co-located brands down.*


This is laughable-- some of you folks are getting way too hyped by this.

No one is going to give a **** about a Toyota dealer that is located next to a VW dealer. Period. 

People aren't going to be thinking highly of VW, but some of these consequences posters are suggesting are purely TCL bubble fantasy land.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

You'reDrunk said:


> I believe so....again, the EULA is clear YOU DON'T OWN the software in the ECU in the car, VW does. Also, if there are emissions updates (under federal law), they are required to install them.....
> 
> you're best bet if you are NOT wanting the new software, stop taking it to the dealer.


This could also be an issue in states with emissions testing. The testing might look at the software version and give you an automatic fail if you don't have the updated version.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

spockcat said:


> This could also be an issue in states with emissions testing. The testing might look at the software version and give you an automatic fail if you don't have the updated version.


:thumbup: I'm sure they will be looking at this......I have a feeling these cars will end up selling well in rural areas where there is no requirement for emissions testing.


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

BetterByDesign said:


> Anyone feeling apprehensive about even being seen driving a VW/Audi product right now?
> 
> I don't want treehuggers keying my car.


Hmm...I can totally picture someone who doesn't know any better seeing "TSI" on the back of my car and associating it with "TDI". The average person walking around who's not a VW fan or a car nut probably would likely confuse the two. Given the amount that VW has marketed "TDI", a three letter thing with T and I at the ends is probably what most folks see.

I never thought about it before, but if my car gets keyed, I'll know why. I'm sure some moron in the Target or Wally World parking lot will think they're sending VW a message.

I mean, if you're going to key someone, get the d-bag who purposely across two spots because he thinks he has some Faberge egg of a car. Not my lowly Jetta.


----------



## Rob (Feb 19, 1999)

A first rough crack at the damages VW may have to pay:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-emission-fraud-liability?cmpid=BBD092215_BIZ


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

You'reDrunk said:


> :thumbup: I'm sure they will be looking at this......I have a feeling these cars will end up selling well in rural areas where there is no requirement for emissions testing.


I think that we need to wait to see how the vehicles are fixed. If it ends up being a small decrease in mpg and power then no big deal. If it ends up being like a 1980 GM diesel, then they will be worthless.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

shawshank redemption said:


> You already got this fixed?


Probably referring to this campaign: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...e-with-the-modified-EPA-compliant-TDI-ECM-map



You'reDrunk said:


> you're best bet if you are NOT wanting the new software, stop taking it to the dealer.


I wonder if the EPA will insist that VW spec a new ECU that can't be so easily cracked by the aftermarket to prevent owners from, perhaps, say, backing up their factory tunes before visiting a dealership.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

Slipstream said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> Should we be watching VLKAY or VOW?


VLKAY is VOW but US ADR to trade on US exchanges (otc)


----------



## adrew (Aug 15, 2003)

Mazda 3s said:


> I'd welcome a buyback, but replacing my vehicle is damn near impossible. There are countless sedans, crossovers and pickups on the market. But the JSW/GSW is a unique blend of fuel efficiency, performance/handling, spaciousness, versatility and reasonableness.


The 1.8T is pretty close these days:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

spockcat said:


> I think that we need to wait to see how the vehicles are fixed. If it ends up being a small decrease in mpg and power then no big deal. If it ends up being like a 1980 GM diesel, then they will be worthless.


:thumbup:

my oldest sister had an 81' Caddy Seville (the huntchback) with a diesel....that thing was ALWAYS broken


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

They aren't touching my '15 TDI 6MT Sportwagen. She's just starting to break in nicely.


----------



## A&F (Feb 13, 2013)

jp71624 said:


> They aren't touching my '15 TDI 6MT Sportwagen. She's just starting to break in nicely.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

A&F said:


>


My state doesn't test emissions for diesels, and therefore wouldn't require emission recall proof. 

I hate it for what could come for future TDI buyers, in the near term anyway.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

My mom just texted me about this mess. So now everyone knows.


----------



## Njaneer (Oct 2, 2006)

Okay which one of you is this guy?










http://abcnews.go.com/Business/ny-m...sions-scandal-reason-bought/story?id=33951902


----------



## Basil Fawlty (Sep 7, 2003)

VW strategic planning meeting circa 2008.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Njaneer said:


> Okay which one of you is this guy?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"The half-a-million people who own these cars are furious, and with good reason,” Steve Berman, managing partner of Hagens Berman, said.

Love how they speak for all us (furious) owners.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

Palm Beach woman files class-action lawsuit against Volkswagen, AutoNation

Lisa Lowrance seeks $5 million in damages over emissions scandal

Lowrance bought a “clean diesel” VW Beetle in 2014

Lawsuit accuses car manufacturer, dealer of fraud and deception

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/article36203946.html


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

rich! said:


> Palm Beach woman files class-action lawsuit against Volkswagen, AutoNation
> 
> Lisa Lowrance seeks $5 million in damages over emissions scandal
> 
> ...


Because her duress she has suffered is worth $5M.............lol.


----------



## Robski92 (Sep 26, 2011)

I love how all the mouth breathers are trying to cash in already. :facepalm:


----------



## VarianceVQ (Jun 26, 2005)

Robski92 said:


> I love how all the mouth breathers are trying to cash in already. :facepalm:


"I'm only breathing through my mouth because VW filled my nostrils with obNOxious lies!"


----------



## Njaneer (Oct 2, 2006)

rich! said:


> Palm Beach woman files class-action lawsuit against Volkswagen, AutoNation
> 
> Lisa Lowrance seeks $5 million in damages over emissions scandal
> 
> ...


Does not surprise me, a lot of people looking for a quick buck. This will go exponential soon.

That Dealership is now owned by Gunther, I can see Lawyers drooling over VW like a Cash Cow.


----------



## sareth (Nov 28, 2008)

Oh my. Now reports from Germany are saying that the German Government knew about the VW scandal. This is getting worse and worse by the hour.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> My mom just texted me about this mess. So now everyone knows.


Holy crap! We've reached DEFCON MOM.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

VW's new spokesperson?


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

sareth said:


> Oh my. Now reports from Germany are saying that the German Government knew about the VW scandal. This is getting worse and worse by the hour.


No ****. That is amazing.


Lwize said:


> Holy crap! We've reached DEFCON MOM.


You get one cookie!


----------



## Njaneer (Oct 2, 2006)

sareth said:


> Oh my. Now reports from Germany are saying that the German Government knew about the VW scandal. This is getting worse and worse by the hour.


Merkel is on a roll:beer:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

sareth said:


> Oh my. Now reports from Germany are saying that the German Government knew about the VW scandal. This is getting worse and worse by the hour.


If they were part of the coverup, then that illustrates exactly why you should not have partially state-owned companies, such as VW which is 20% owned by State of Lower Saxony, Hanover, and 17% owned by Qatar. I think we all recently found out how much Qatar cares about US laws.


----------



## gonzo08452 (Apr 17, 2006)

can't trust those Germans


----------



## sareth (Nov 28, 2008)

I'm a native german speaker so I read all the German news. But, before some says they didn't see this...it is top news on news.google.de. Here is the link (in german): http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtscha...von-abgas-skandal-gewusst-haben-13818304.html


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

adrew said:


> The 1.8T is pretty close these days:


But it offers nowhere near the combined mileage I've been getting recently:










Oh well


----------



## bzcat (Nov 26, 2001)

sareth said:


> I'm a native german speaker so I read all the German news. But, before some says they didn't see this...it is top news on news.google.de. Here is the link (in german): http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtscha...von-abgas-skandal-gewusst-haben-13818304.html


My German is not that good but from what I can tell, this is just political grandstanding in Germany for now. The Green Party is accusing the Federal Transportation Minister of incompetency, basically saying he should have known VW was cheating and taken action sooner. I don't think there is a smoking gun, yet, of cover up involving the German Federal Govt.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

AZGolf said:


> If they were part of the coverup, then that illustrates exactly why you should not have partially state-owned companies, such as VW which is 20% owned by State of Lower Saxony, Hanover, and 17% owned by Qatar. I think we all recently found out how much Qatar cares about US laws.


Like Freddie Mac and the USPS? Lol


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Mazda 3s said:


> But it offers nowhere near the combined mileage I've been getting recently:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'm just breaking mine in. About 6500 miles and she's averaging almost 45mpg on a full tank. With a little injector cleaner and some octane booster here and there...who knows what I'll see "down the road"...


----------



## A&F (Feb 13, 2013)

jp71624 said:


> My state doesn't test emissions for diesels, and therefore wouldn't require emission recall proof.


Got nothing to do with it.

In the case of the Defenders, ICE and the DOT didn't care. They got a list of owners, rounded up the trucks and crushed them.

Motorex also forged test data to import GTRs. The R33s got to be grandfathered while the company owners went to jail.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

A&F said:


> Got nothing to do with it.
> 
> In the case of the Defenders, ICE and the DOT didn't care. They got a list of owners, rounded up the trucks and crushed them.
> 
> Motorex also forged test data to import GTRs. The R33s got to be grandfathered while the company owners went to jail.


Don't hold your breath, Poncho...
This isn't exactly a "black market" operation. Good try.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

jp71624 said:


> Don't hold your breath, Poncho...
> This isn't exactly a "black market" operation. Good try.


Motorex was operating in the open. Most of those Defender dealers did too. That wasn't the "black market." It was just fraud.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

gonzo08452 said:


> can't trust those Germans


Yep. Let's not forget Pearl Harbor.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

jp71624 said:


> Don't hold your breath, Poncho...
> This isn't exactly a "black market" operation. Good try.


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

Waterfan said:


> With respect, way too soon to call. Only now is this BEGINNING to hit the mainstream, the peak of this scandal probably has a week or two more before it hits in earnest.


Historically scandals blow over very quickly. Again, this isn't the first, or the last time something will happen with a consumer commodity that has a ripple effect into small business. We plan for such things. Dealers that don't plan for eventualities go out of business every week. Even if we never sell another TDI again, life will go on. The Jetta could disappear in all forms, and life will go on. 



Waterfan said:


> If I were you I would be prepping for the worst forward looking 12 months in history (only 12 if you're lucky).


We hope for the best, and plan for the worst at all times. Smart businesses do that, and this company has had a VW point since the aircooled era. They've seen some crazy times in that amount of time, and they got through it just fine. This will be no different. 



Waterfan said:


> Your association with VW will very likely drag your other co-located brands down.


Now you're just being ridiculous. Did you honestly type that and think it will happen in reality, or is this just forum conjecture and venting? :laugh:


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

ByronLLN said:


> Motorex was operating in the open. Most of those Defender dealers did too. That wasn't the "black market." It was just fraud.


It's still importation of a foreign vehicle not manufactured to be in the US. Whole different can of worms.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

jp71624 said:


> It's still importation of a foreign vehicle not manufactured to be in the US. While different can of worms.


Fundamentally it's no different. They claimed to be running legitimate operations but really they were skirting regulations and lying about it. It's actually a pretty solid comparison. 

The government isn't going to send TDIs to the crusher, though.


----------



## A&F (Feb 13, 2013)

jp71624 said:


> It's still importation of a foreign vehicle not manufactured to be in the US. While different can of worms.


That was tested and modified to meet US DOT and EPA requirements.

Both companies where unable to meet the EPA requirement and forged documents to get accepted. 

Sounds exactly like what Volkswagen did.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

Just received an automated email from my dealer offering me a $500 VW loyalty rewards on the purchase of my next car 

Must have been in the pipe before die Scheisse hit the fan. Don't think that I can trade-in my Golf TDI right now. Even if I can, it will be most likely a ridiculously low number.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

ByronLLN said:


> Fundamentally it's no different. They claimed to be running legitimate operations but really they were skirting regulations and lying about it. It's actually a pretty solid comparison.
> 
> The government isn't going to send TDIs to the crusher, though.


The fact that the both claimed to be legitimate doesn't make it a solid comparison. Completely different factors up against completely different laws. And one of them isn't supposed to be here in the US from the get go. Not a mitigating factor...

Although I think you should be able to import a lot of stuff, but that's neither here nor there.


----------



## bzcat (Nov 26, 2001)

ByronLLN said:


> Fundamentally it's no different. They claimed to be running legitimate operations but really they were skirting regulations and lying about it. It's actually a pretty solid comparison.
> 
> The government isn't going to send TDIs to the crusher, though.


Maybe they should? eace:

That will really send the TDI Club into a tizzy.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

bzcat said:


> Maybe they should? eace:
> 
> That will really send the TDI Club into a tizzy.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

sareth said:


> Oh my. Now reports from Germany are saying that the German Government knew about the VW scandal. This is getting worse and worse by the hour.


----------



## Double-V (Mar 20, 2001)

sareth said:


> Oh my. Now reports from Germany are saying that the German Government knew about the VW scandal. This is getting worse and worse by the hour.


Time to start offing some Syrian refugees to distract attention.


----------



## 2112 (Jun 21, 2004)

GoHomePossum said:


> Yep. Let's not forget Pearl Harbor.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

jp71624 said:


> Yeah, I'm just breaking mine in. About 6500 miles and she's averaging almost 45mpg on a full tank. With a little injector cleaner and some octane booster here and there...who knows what I'll see "down the road"...


Drive the **** out of it, don't worry about the mileage at this point.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

Double-V said:


> Time to start offing some Syrian refugees to distract attention.


I was going to try to make a joke about clean-burning refugees but when you're talking about Germany, that one's a little too on-the-nose.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Double-V said:


> Time to start offing some Syrian refugees to distract attention.


----------



## PrimaVW (Dec 22, 2005)

Ok I'm going to weigh in here. I've read most of this thread and read the articles. Here's my thoughts:

VWoA will pull through this. They are an established brand with loyal customers. TDI's are not a majority of their sales. While it is not totally out of the realm of possibility that there hasn't been some fiddling with the emissions systems on gasoline models, I highly doubt VW would have needed to do so. While gasoline engines have their own need for emissions systems, I'm fairly certain that VW, like other brands, has had no problem meeting EPA standards in that avenue.

I checked into TCL today to see what folks were doing about the stock prices, and remember why I stopped reading TCL a few years ago. There is a few dozen trolls that have some sort of deep seated hatred toward VW. These guys/gals generally fabricate some sort of reason for their hatred based mainly on emotion and justified by some sort of minor distorted factor. My theory on this is that TCL has been associated with Vwvortex fanboys, so there a few people who try desperately to make it known that they are not "on the VW bandwagon". There's a whole heck of a lot of speculation going on in this thread, which I equate to a media frenzy. It is well-known that the media has been known to jump to conclusions, over-exaggerate or downright lie about facts to get an emotional reaction from people WAAAAAYYYY before the facts are known. By the time the facts come out, the media has already moved on to the next hot story, and the final resolution gets a small fraction of the attention the original story received.

This will be a flash in the pan for VW. No one but TCL will be talking about this in a week, and the investigation could take months if not years. They'll fix the issue, take their punishment (which will most likely result in a slap on the wrist), the right politicians will be paid, marketing campaigns will be launched, and VW will roll on like they have for almost 80 years. I don't see any cause to believe this will cause a bankruptcy.

I'm sure I'll be called a "fanboy" or some other derogatory name, but I for one will not shy away from the brand for this. I'm not a fan of Toyota, but when the whole accelerator scandal came out, I didn't much care one way or another. I certainly didn't wish death upon Toyota. There are very few products from Toyota that I'd buy, and that fact was not made better or worse by that scandal for me personally. Truth is, the majority of everyday folks aren't really loyal to one brand. Most buy the "hottest, best looking, cheapest, etc" model/brand being sold at the time their warranty expires.

One thing I will say is I had spoken with my parents about investing in Ford when their stocks took a ****, and I regretted not putting some money into them. I won't make that mistake this time though, regardless of my feelings for VW. I'll put a few bucks on VLKAY when the stocks are low and ride it out.


----------



## Double-V (Mar 20, 2001)

ByronLLN said:


> I was going to try to make a joke about clean-burning refugees but when you're talking about Germany, that one's a little too on-the-nose.


:laugh:

I tried working in something about emissions and variations on "refugee camps", but my spider-ban-sense kept going off...


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

sareth said:


> Oh my. Now reports from Germany are saying that the German Government knew about the VW scandal. This is getting worse and worse by the hour.


But since the US spies on Germany, the US government knew as well.

Thanks, Snowden!


----------



## Ambrose Wolfinger (Feb 21, 2005)

Cousin Eddie said:


> A small percentage of buyers chip their cars. So it's not a huge concern to the gov't.
> 
> Most people are smart enough that if they want a faster car they go buy a faster car, not tart up some econobox Volkswagen.



Not sure how the GIF is relevant, but it totally made my day, sir! :beer:


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)

Lwize said:


> But since the US spies on Germany, the US government knew as well.
> 
> Thanks, Snowden!


Good point! Right back to Obama. I knew he was behind this.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

I feel like such an outlaw....


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

Don't rely on the MFA... Hand calc over an entire tank... I'm guessing you'll be a wee over 40mpg.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

MXTHOR3 said:


> Don't rely on the MFA... Hand calc over an entire tank... I'm guessing you'll be a wee over 40mpg.


It's not that high but it's plenty over 40. I didn't get that bad off the lot. Lol
I've been over 42 avg from the day it had 13 miles on it.


----------



## sareth (Nov 28, 2008)

Well, we are ready for the buy back in my house. Wife is utterly pissed off cause she bought her TDI (2nd TDI by the way) because of the Clean Diesel. For crying out loud, she makes me recycle! Ready to move to another brand after personally owning 4 VWs since 2002. VW can burn in hell for all we care.


----------



## Ambrose Wolfinger (Feb 21, 2005)

Saw a new looking Passat TDI with a for sale sign roll past me today. A sign of things to come?

Call me crazy, but I still like VWs, even if a TDI is off the list for a new car. Pretty disappointed in them though. They brought this on themselves. I used to hear VW referred to as "Hitler's Revenge". Maybe this is "Piech's Revenge"


----------



## dwagner88 (Jan 14, 2011)

I should find a VW dealer with an unsold Golf R at the end of the month. Might get a bargain since their sales will definitely be off.


----------



## Double-V (Mar 20, 2001)

sareth said:


> Well, we are ready for the buy back in my house. Wife is utterly pissed off cause she bought her TDI (2nd TDI by the way) because of the Clean Diesel. For crying out loud, she makes me recycle! Ready to move to another brand after personally owning 4 VWs since 2002. VW can burn in hell for all we care.


So you're going to Tesla, because I have a feeling every manufacturer with an ICE has been gaming the emissions. It won't surprise me one bit to find out this is the tip of an industry-wide iceberg.


----------



## sareth (Nov 28, 2008)

Double-V said:


> So you're going to Tesla, because I have a feeling every manufacturer with an ICE has been gaming the emissions. It won't surprise me one bit to find out this is the tip of an industry-wide iceberg.


Not sure Tesla is gonna be in the price range of the buy back. *checking wallet*. Nope.

Porsche may be out of the running too depending on the findings: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/22/usa-volkswagen-carb-idUSL1N11S2W420150922


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> this company has had a VW point since the aircooled era. They've seen some crazy times in that amount of time, and they got through it just fine. This will be no different.


^This is key. If you've had a VW store that long, you have a lot of repeat customers you likely have a good relationship with, assuming you've treated people right along the way. No reason to assume you guys haven't. So you'll be fine. If your VW store survived the beginning of the 1990s / early years of the MK3 Jetta, you can weather this easily. I heard some horror stores from those days back when I was selling VWs ten years later in the early '00's. From what I understand, it was _really_ bad. VW was down to under 50k units a year in the USA at that point and still managed to hang on. Even if they lost half their current U.S. volume from the current debacle (and I don't think they will), they'd still be doing multiple times the numbers of units they were in the dark times. 

Stores that have a loyal client base and a good reputation will weather the occasional difficulty like what is happening now.


----------



## Cole Orlling (Mar 18, 2015)

sareth said:


> Well, we are ready for the buy back in my house. Wife is utterly pissed off cause she bought her TDI (2nd TDI by the way) because of the Clean Diesel. For crying out loud, she makes me recycle! Ready to move to another brand after personally owning 4 VWs since 2002. VW can burn in hell for all we care.


Tell her the trees will be just fine while she continues to drive her "clean diesel" and she can relax her grip on them a bit.


----------



## Willy723 (May 5, 2012)

I wonder if this has anything to do with my o2 sensors that have failed now for the 3rd time in under 50k miles....just another reason to be glad we are getting rid of our JSW


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

PrimaVW said:


> There is [sic] a few dozen trolls that have some sort of deep seated hatred toward VW.


Few dozen? Like 36+ trolls? That's a lot of trolls.


----------



## intercedeGLI (Sep 8, 2002)

PrimaVW said:


> VWoA will pull through this. They are an established brand with loyal customers. TDI's are not a majority of their sales. While it is not totally out of the realm of possibility that there hasn't been some fiddling with the emissions systems on gasoline models, I highly doubt VW would have needed to do so. While gasoline engines have their own need for emissions systems, I'm fairly certain that VW, like other brands, has had no problem meeting EPA standards in that avenue.
> 
> This will be a flash in the pan for VW. No one but TCL will be talking about this in a week, and the investigation could take months if not years. They'll fix the issue, take their punishment (which will most likely result in a slap on the wrist), the right politicians will be paid, marketing campaigns will be launched, and VW will roll on like they have for almost 80 years. I don't see any cause to believe this will cause a bankruptcy.


Majority? No. Significant? Absolutely. 

http://media.vw.com/release/907/

_Volkswagen’s high-mileage, TDI® Clean Diesel models totaled 79,422 units for the year, *accounting for 21.6 percent of sales in 2014*. In December, 5,348 units were sold, 15.7 percent of sales._

I don't care who you are, that'll f****ing hurt. I think it was this thread someone said TDI accounts for upwards of 40% of European sales. 

This won't be a flash in the pan for Volkswagen, diesel fuel or driving anywhere in the world.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

Hawk said:


> Few dozen? Like 36+ trolls? That's a lot of trolls.


x15 posts per.. only so much time to post between clean up


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

syncro87 said:


> ^This is key. If you've had a VW store that long, you have a lot of repeat customers you likely have a good relationship with, assuming you've treated people right along the way. No reason to assume you guys haven't. So you'll be fine. If your VW store survived the beginning of the 1990s / early years of the MK3 Jetta, you can weather this easily. I heard some horror stores from those days back when I was selling VWs ten years later in the early '00's. From what I understand, it was _really_ bad. VW was down to under 50k units a year in the USA at that point and still managed to hang on. Even if they lost half their current U.S. volume from the current debacle (and I don't think they will), they'd still be doing multiple times the numbers of units they were in the dark times.
> 
> Stores that have a loyal client base and a good reputation will weather the occasional difficulty like what is happening now.


I haven't brought up the early 90's, but if you survived that, you learned how to run a store correctly.


----------



## surefooted (May 21, 2001)

PrimaVW said:


> Ok I'm going to weigh in here. I've read most of this thread and read the articles. Here's my thoughts:
> 
> VWoA will pull through this. They are an established brand with loyal customers. TDI's are not a majority of their sales. While it is not totally out of the realm of possibility that there hasn't been some fiddling with the emissions systems on gasoline models, I highly doubt VW would have needed to do so. While gasoline engines have their own need for emissions systems, I'm fairly certain that VW, like other brands, has had no problem meeting EPA standards in that avenue.
> 
> ...


A dog does not need to be described nor labeled.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Hawk said:


> Few dozen? Like 36+ trolls? That's a lot of trolls.


If you held a troll party, what would you give out for dour prizes?

And I am still at a loss for words over this whole bizarre hippodrome.


----------



## surefooted (May 21, 2001)

Hawk said:


> Few dozen? Like 36+ trolls? That's a lot of trolls.


But aren't you like...their king?


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

You know out of all the diesel vehicles that have been listed in this thread that are still on sale in the US. I found one that was missed. I completely forgot Porsche still made and sold the Cayenne diesel here.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Cutandthrust said:


> You know out of all the diesel vehicles that have been listed in this thread that are still on sale in the US. I found one that was missed. I completely forgot Porsche still made and sold the Cayenne diesel here.


My company president just bought a new one a few weeks ago. :laugh:


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

surefooted said:


> But aren't you like...their king?


I'm not clever enough to troll. Trolls are always playing the long game, trying to plan four posts ahead. What's the reaction, to the reaction, to the reaction to this going to be. I can't keep track of stuff like that well enough to troll. Plus you've got to know all the players in a particular thread and what sets who off and who you can set off against who. That's too crafty for me.

Maybe VW is trolling the EPA.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

surefooted said:


> But aren't you like...their king?


He's too secure with his purchase to troll a brand he doesn't care about..


----------



## surefooted (May 21, 2001)

Hawk said:


> I'm not clever enough to troll. Trolls are always playing the long game, trying to plan four posts ahead. What's the reaction, to the reaction, to the reaction to this going to be. I can't keep track of stuff like that well enough to troll. Plus you've got to know all the players in a particular thread and what sets who off and who you can set off against who. That's too crafty for me.
> 
> Maybe VW is trolling the EPA.


:thumbup:



caj1 said:


> He's too secure with his purchase to troll a brand he doesn't care about..


True...


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

Hawk said:


> I'm not clever enough to troll. Trolls are always playing the long game, trying to plan four posts ahead. What's the reaction, to the reaction, to the reaction to this going to be. I can't keep track of stuff like that well enough to troll. Plus you've got to know all the players in a particular thread and what sets who off and who you can set off against who. That's too crafty for me.


If you're a professional, '4Chan in its glory days' type of troll, then, yes, those rules apply, but do you honestly think we have trolls here of that caliber? Hell no. They're either blatantly obvious, or so subtle that they only make a handful of people angry. This is a miserable place for troll watching. Utterly miserable. It's like watching your dad troll a Facebook page. It's just all going to go horribly wrong.


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> This is a miserable place for troll watching. Utterly miserable. It's like watching your dad troll a Facebook page. It's just all going to go horribly wrong.


:laugh:


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Do you honestly think we have trolls here of that caliber? Hell no.


Says the guy driving the 2001 Honda Prelude. 

Eh? Am I doing it right?  :beer:


----------



## BetterByDesign (Sep 7, 2004)

BetterByDesign said:


> Holy carp, I'm going back to bed. Wake me up when this is over.





Cooper said:


> Sure thing, Rip. See you in 20 years.



Germany opens in a few hours. Let's see what happens today.


----------



## Diamond Dave (Mar 24, 2001)

I will begin looking into used V10 Touregs.






[email protected] said:


> I haven't brought up the early 90's, but if you survived that, you learned how to run a store correctly.


Worked at a VW dealer when the Mexico cars came in. Not good.


----------



## Son (Aug 10, 2000)

These must have been discussed already in this thread, but maybe someone is nice enough and summarizes them for me. What I've been wondering is:
Why did they cheat? Is it impossible to reach the emissions limits? Or is the gear needed to reach the limits expensive that the cars become too expensive against their competition? Or does tackling the emissions hurt the mpg figures that are these cars' key selling points?


----------



## wolfcastle (Jul 28, 2006)

Son you dissapoint me


----------



## oldster1 (Oct 24, 2011)

While rage at Volkswagen is totally justified, maybe we need to flip this issue around and face the fact that if we are really going to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions that are likely to finish off the planet in the future, we need to change our driving habits NOW -- drive a little slower, settle for a little less pickup, think of driving not as "fun" but as something we do only out of necessity. 

If VW had thought their "clean diesel" technology would have sold if it was actually clean, the emissions control switch would be on all the time, not only during testing. But they knew the market...and the market -- is us. Still insisting on meeting the challenges of addressing climate change with no adjustments to our lifestyle or our technology.


yes,I still listen to Neil Young songs


----------



## VadGTI (Feb 24, 2000)

Well, that answers that:



> ...
> 
> In California — which has the nation's toughest emissions standards and where about 15% of Volkswagen's affected diesel vehicles were sold — the Air Resources Board and the Department of Motor Vehicles will require owners to prove they made the fix before renewing their state registration.
> 
> ...


Also, some irony:



> ...
> 
> The VW revelations are not the first major case of a manufacturer cheating on emissions tests for diesel engines. More than a decade ago, government officials reached a $1-billion settlement with seven diesel engine manufacturers whom the EPA had charged with using similar devices that illegally bypassed emission control equipment.
> 
> ...


http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-vw-diesel-20150923-story.html


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

oldster1 said:


> While rage at Volkswagen is totally justified, maybe we need to flip this issue around and face the fact that if we are really going to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions that are likely to finish off the planet in the future, we need to change our driving habits NOW -- drive a little slower, settle for a little less pickup, think of driving not as "fun" but as something we do only out of necessity.
> 
> If VW had thought their "clean diesel" technology would have sold if it was actually clean, the emissions control switch would be on all the time, not only during testing. But they knew the market...and the market -- is us. Still insisting on meeting the challenges of addressing climate change with no adjustments to our lifestyle or our technology.
> 
> ...


You're right. In our modern society it's everyone's fault but our own. It's all about having our cake and eating it too. Literally. People want cake and don't want to be fat. Blame sugar and replace it with chemicals that are worse in the long run. 

I just feel sorry for people like my dad. He's had a rough few years, and he was so proud of his A3 TDI. He really does care about the environment. Screw you VW for lying to your loyal fan base.


----------



## Slowrider7577 (Apr 7, 2006)

Hawk said:


> Says the guy driving the 2001 Honda Prelude.
> 
> Eh? Am I doing it right?  :beer:


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

oldster1 said:


> While rage at Volkswagen is totally justified, maybe we need to flip this issue around and face the fact that if we are really going to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions that are likely to finish off the planet in the future, we need to change our driving habits NOW -- drive a little slower, settle for a little less pickup, think of driving not as "fun" but as something we do only out of necessity.


:screwy::sly:


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> It's like watching your dad troll a Facebook page. It's just all going to go horribly wrong.


So true... :laugh: :facepalm:



oldster1 said:


> While rage at Volkswagen is totally justified, maybe we need to flip this issue around and face the fact that if we are really going to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions that are likely to finish off the planet in the future, we need to change our driving habits NOW -- drive a little slower, settle for a little less pickup, *think of driving not as "fun" but as something we do only out of necessity.*


We'll never save the planet with a defeatist attitude like this. 

I've managed to have "fun" in every vehicle I've ever driven... except for the Smart. But if that's our future, we should just give up now.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

Son said:


> These must have been discussed already in this thread, but maybe someone is nice enough and summarizes them for me. What I've been wondering is:
> Why did they cheat? Is it impossible to reach the emissions limits? Or is the gear needed to reach the limits expensive that the cars become too expensive against their competition? Or does tackling the emissions hurt the mpg figures that are these cars' key selling points?


It may be some of all those. First to market captures market share. Cheat to do it, and maybe fix it later.

I was in industry and we were coming out with the first generic version of a competitor's product. Marketing said it was important to be first to capture generic market share and would like 6-months lead time to establish their place in the market before a another generic was approved. Told me there were others working on the product. We were first generic approved. It was two years before other generics were approved. Marketing called me and said that they've heard that generic versions of our product were going to be approved and what can we do to block it. I told them, "we are a generic." They completely forgot about that in two years.


----------



## Gear_Cruncher (Mar 28, 2013)

I'm betting VW isn't the only one who has 'cheated' on emissions.  Hey! Let's check out GM and see what's new over there, they certainly have hidden issues that have killed thousands of people over the years! let's see if they diesels are running dirty too!


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

Title made me laugh. 

_Volkswagen Chief in the Vortex of the Storm_

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/b...n-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Stock watch:

https://www.google.com/finance?chdn...e&q=ETR:VOW3&&fct=big&ei=RYsCVoGIJ87Ce-TBoOAK

It's holding pretty much steady ever since Winterkorn's statement yesterday. Still definitely not in 'buy' territory, in my opinion. I'm waiting to see if this drops into the 30-50 range. I think it's a definite possibility once all the penalties are finalized.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Stock watch:
> 
> https://www.google.com/finance?chdn...e&q=ETR:VOW3&&fct=big&ei=RYsCVoGIJ87Ce-TBoOAK
> 
> It's holding pretty much steady ever since Winterkorn's statement yesterday. Still definitely not in 'buy' territory, in my opinion. I'm waiting to see if this drops into the 30-50 range. I think it's a definite possibility once all the penalties are finalized.


They are having an investors meeting right now. I would wait to see what happens as a result of that. Then, wait for the EPA to officially declare what they will do. I am thinking that the drop is not done yet.


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

Son said:


> These must have been discussed already in this thread, but maybe someone is nice enough and summarizes them for me. What I've been wondering is:
> Why did they cheat? Is it impossible to reach the emissions limits? Or is the gear needed to reach the limits expensive that the cars become too expensive against their competition? Or does tackling the emissions hurt the mpg figures that are these cars' key selling points?


My guess is that they couldn't meet their power and MPG goals while following the rules. So they figured out a way to cheat the test and still have their cars turn on the reviewers and buyers.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

MCTB said:


> They are having an investors meeting right now. I would wait to see what happens as a result of that. Then, wait for the EPA to officially declare what they will do. I am thinking that the drop is *not done yet*.


Absolutely. I missed out on a big opportunity with Ford stock back in '09, I'm not making that same mistake again.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

news sites need content... trolling the 'tex



> On VW Vortex, a Volkswagen enthusiast site, a prospective buyer who says they’re having “second thoughts” about buying a 1.8T Golf SEL asks whether anyone else feels the same way.
> 
> “VW knowingly lied about ‘clean’ diesel while making ‘clean’ diesel their main selling point in the U.S.A. It’s a question of trust,” wrote Dezlboy, who owns a 2000 Golf TDI GLS, in response.


Guy selling Volkswagen fears ‘he may be stuck with it’ http://www.marketwatch.com/story/gu...k-with-it-2015-09-22?link=MW_home_latest_news


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

52-week high for VOW3.DE was 262? Wow, hell of a drop.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=vow3.de


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

The East Coast is awake! Va, Vt, Fl. :laugh:



Rabbit5GTI said:


> Absolutely. I missed out on a big opportunity with Ford stock back in '09, I'm not making that same mistake again.


Same here. I am waiting to see what happens. Granted, VW does not really have anything big time seemingly coming down the pike like Ford did at the time but they will probably be pretty steady.



rich! said:


> news sites need content... trolling the 'tex
> 
> Guy selling Volkswagen fears ‘he may be stuck with it’ http://www.marketwatch.com/story/gu...k-with-it-2015-09-22?link=MW_home_latest_news


Ha!


----------



## Egz (May 30, 2002)

Does VW trade on the US markets, or just European ones?


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Cooper said:


> 52-week high for VOW3.DE was 262? Wow, hell of a drop.
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=vow3.de


Yes, but it wasn't' there for long. I wouldn't truly look at that as a realistic 'peak', if you're thinking about buying shares on the cheap.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

Egz said:


> Does VW trade on the US markets, or just European ones?


replied a few pages back... VLKAY is the US ADR (otc) for VOW; just depends on what exchanges you have access too


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

Egz said:


> Does VW trade on the US markets, or just European ones?


You can buy VLKAY in US dollars because of the ADR system.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

rich! said:


> news sites need content... trolling the 'tex
> 
> 
> 
> Guy selling Volkswagen fears ‘he may be stuck with it’ http://www.marketwatch.com/story/gu...k-with-it-2015-09-22?link=MW_home_latest_news


:laugh:

Hey, now someone can go back into the wiki page.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Egz said:


> Does VW trade on the US markets, or just European ones?


Both. VOW is the international one and VLKAY is the US one, from what I gather. VLKAY is the much cheaper one. 

This is the 5 day for VLKAY


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> ... if you're thinking about buying shares on the cheap ...


Nope. Keeping the stocks I have. I don't jump of stocks. Not thrilled that a company I worked left in 1999 has gone from 71 earlier this year to 62. It's trended the DOW over the past 12 months. It goes up, down a little, up more ... It's done very well since I left and just let the stock sit until moving some out elsewhere in 2013, pays a dividend, and is a "buy and keep for 25 years" stock.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Cooper said:


> Nope. Keeping the stocks I have. *I don't jump of stocks*. Not thrilled that a company I worked left in 1999 has gone from 71 earlier this year to 62. It's trended the DOW over the past 12 months. It goes up, down a little, up more ... It's done very well since I left and just let the stock sit until moving some out elsewhere in 2013, pays a dividend, and is a "buy and keep for 25 years" stock.


Typically, neither do I. This just seems like a nice opportunity to make my money back from my old TDI 

If it does go down to the levels I think it *could*, this would be something to hold on to for quite some time.


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Stock watch:
> 
> https://www.google.com/finance?chdn...e&q=ETR:VOW3&&fct=big&ei=RYsCVoGIJ87Ce-TBoOAK
> 
> It's holding pretty much steady ever since Winterkorn's statement yesterday. Still definitely not in 'buy' territory, in my opinion. I'm waiting to see if this drops into the 30-50 range. I think it's a definite possibility once all the penalties are finalized.


Final penalty numbers may take a while, and the certainty of solid numbers (compared to wild billion-dollar speculations right now) might actually cause a rise. Just a thought.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

MCTB said:


> Both. VOW is the international one and VLKAY is the US one, from what I gather. VLKAY is the much cheaper one.
> 
> 5:1 ratio, low volume


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Typically, neither do I. This just seems like a nice opportunity to make my money back from my old TDI
> 
> If it does go down to the levels I think it *could*, this would be something to hold on to for quite some time.


Got to agree with that. :beer:

Traded in my 2011 JSW TDI in May. Liked it a LOT. 42 mpg overall. Much more "scoot, scoot" than the 3.0 V6 in my 2003 A4 Avant since the TDI had more torque and was 500 pounds lighter. Fun car. Glad I traded it in now. 

I'm really curious about 2.0-L TDI h.p./torque numbers with the software fix to meet emissions. Anyone seen the numbers?


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

mhjett said:


> Final penalty numbers may take a while, and the certainty of solid numbers (compared to wild billion-dollar speculations right now) might actually cause a rise. Just a thought.


I'm sure that's also a possibility, but I'm willing to take the chance. I would still say the chances at this point of dropping further are higher than it rising on the 'relief' that the penalties aren't as bad as what they could have been.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

I posted this in one of the other threads, but may as well over here, too.



atomicalex said:


> Germany has a rule-based culture, and 90% of life is spent figuring out how to get around the rules while still obeying them. Spirit vs letter of the law. In the US, we prize the Spirit of the Law. In Germany, it is the Letter of the Law. Once I figured this out, my life in Germany got to be fantastically easy. Just figure out how to get around the rule while creatively applying it, and you are fine. VW's emissions control defeat programming would put the cars in compliance with the Letter of the Law, which specifies the testing conditions, while violating the Spirit of the Law which says "don't pollute". I did exactly the same things when prepping for my TÜV inspections - put the snow tyres with the fat tread on, etc.
> 
> I feel kind of funny saying this, but it's a cultural thing and I am willing to bet all of Internal Combustion knew exactly what was up and didn't really think it was that big of a deal. Oops.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> I'm sure that's also a possibility, but I'm willing to take the chance. I would still say the chances at this point of dropping further are higher than it rising on the 'relief' that the penalties aren't as bad as what they could have been.


I am no stock expert but I agree. The drop has been on the admitting and the threat of fines. DOJ just got the case and the EPA has not announced any actual, hard numbers on fines. I think the real hurt will come once VW has to dip into that $7 Billion they set aside.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

rich! said:


> news sites need content... trolling the 'tex
> 
> Guy selling Volkswagen fears ‘he may be stuck with it’ http://www.marketwatch.com/story/gu...k-with-it-2015-09-22?link=MW_home_latest_news


#PETROLGATE


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

MCTB said:


> I am no stock expert but I agree. The drop has been on the admitting and the threat of fines. DOJ just got the case and the EPA has not announced any actual, hard numbers on fines. I think the real hurt will come once VW has to dip into that $7 Billion they set aside.


I think the drop is more on threat to future sales and earnings. Fines? Huge, yes, but companies handle them.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

McBanagon said:


> #PETROLGATE


Yeah I've decided to leave my (gasoline) Jetta in the garage at home for a few days in case any mouth breathers want to key it. This isn't just affecting diesel owners. Same as all of GM is tarnished by the ignition switch issue even though it was just Cobalts and G5s.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

McBanagon said:


> #PETROLGATE


10YO nevAr LoSe? Oh, yeah, I'm sooooooo paying $4.5K for that.


NOT!

Is that guy on crack?


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

> The company will dismiss CEO Martin Winterkom today as a result of the fallout from the scandal, according to a Reuters report citing a German newspaper.
> 
> . . .
> 
> Volkswagen has denied reports that Mattias Mueller, the head of the company's Porsche sports car division, will be taking over as chief executive for Winterkom.


http://www.thestreet.com/story/13296721/1/volkswagen-vlkay-stock-tanks-jim-cramer-s-take-on-emission-scandal-fallout.html



> A story in the Tagesspiegel newspaper - denied by Volkswagen - said the board would replace the 68-year-old Winterkorn with Matthias Mueller, the head of the automaker's Porsche sports car business.


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-shares-plunge-emissions-scandal-000939429.html


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

atomicalex said:


> 10YO nevAr LoSe? Oh, yeah, I'm sooooooo paying $4.5K for that.


And here it is.
https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5220510125.html


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

McBanagon said:


> And here it is.
> https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5220510125.html


Who's gonna offer tree fiddy?


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

McBanagon said:


> And here it is.
> https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/5220510125.html


"it's not exactly the right car to be taking 5 people camping upstate"

Hahaha, what made you think that it would be?


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

atomicalex said:


> 10YO nevAr LoSe? Oh, yeah, I'm sooooooo paying $4.5K for that.
> NOT!
> 
> *Is that guy on crack?*





Rabbit5GTI said:


> Who's gonna offer tree fiddy?


So after looking at the pictures, I was ready to say "yeah that's pretty freakin high, but the car looks decent enough"...because I actually liked my nevar loose and had good luck with it.

Then I get to the part about an "engine rebuild" for 2k on a car with 91k miles. yeah bud, we get it. you still owe money on a crapbox that wasn't maintained. Sorry 'bout your bad luck.:banghead:


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> 10YO nevAr LoSe? Oh, yeah, I'm sooooooo paying $4.5K for that.
> 
> 
> NOT!
> ...


Asking $4.5k on Craigslist for a 14-yr old crapbox Jetta that's needed a ton of repairs (which you make sure potential buyers know about in your for-sale ad) in only 91k miles, you got no phone calls, and it's because of the EPA TDI scandal? Yep, a genuine millennial.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

Tornado2dr said:


> So after looking at the pictures, I was ready to say "yeah that's pretty freakin high, but the car looks decent enough"


91k on an 01M Slushbox? It's not the EPA issue that's preventing folks from jumping on that grenade.


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

Surf Green said:


> 91k on an 01M Slushbox? It's not the EPA issue that's preventing folks from jumping on that grenade.


I didn't notice the auto.


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

Sorry if this has been posted before, but The Telegraph has a pretty good page on the scandal that's continuously updating with new info and reports: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...wer-as-VW-emissions-fallout-deepens-LIVE.html


----------



## pwm (Feb 26, 2009)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Absolutely. I missed out on a big opportunity with Ford stock back in '09, I'm not making that same mistake again.


I didn't. :wave:

Still holding the F stock I bought in the middle of the crisis, and with dividends my cost basis is way down. That said, the stock has stagnated over the past few years.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

pwm said:


> I didn't. :wave:
> 
> Still holding the F stock I bought in the middle of the crisis, and with dividends my cost basis is way down. That said, the stock has stagnated over the past few years.


I was using my fun money at the time to pay for a dying cat 

If you bought it at 2.00/share, you're still doing well even though it has indeed hit a plateau of late.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

The Star Wars "these are not the emissions we are looking for" got a  .


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

pwm said:


> I didn't. :wave:
> 
> Still holding the F stock I bought in the middle of the crisis, and with dividends my cost basis is way down. That said, the stock has stagnated over the past few years.


be mindful if $F doesn't reclaim that major l/t trendline... (which is around the 200sma on daily) https://www.tradingview.com/x/9A60Nf0t/ disclaimer, i don't know what i'm doing.


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

VW hires the BP Deepwater Horizon lawyers.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/vo...sed-in-deepwater-horizon-oil-spill-2015-09-23


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

F was below 2 in '09? What was that all about? Seems a lot more than the '08 - '09 correction.

Edit: Just read history. Didn't recall F being in such dire straits.


----------



## MyDirtyDiesel (Apr 10, 2014)

Surf Green said:


> 91k on an 01M Slushbox? It's not the EPA issue that's preventing folks from jumping on that grenade.


That's actually the 09A 5-speed slushbox :laugh:

The under hood oil pressure gauge, now that is original!

$4500 will buy a much nicer Mk4. Owner is asking too much, that's why nobody is calling.

Ah, I've discovered the real reason the seller has not received any calls:


There is no phone number listed!! Mystery solved.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

classicjetta said:


> Same as all of GM is tarnished by the ignition switch issue *even though it was just Cobalts and G5s.*


wanna try this again?

http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle+Owners/Consumer+Alert:+GM+Ignition+Switch+Recall+Information


> These recalled GM vehicles include:
> 
> All 2005-2010 Chevrolet Cobalt.
> 2007-2010 Pontiac G5.
> ...


and since you brought this up in a thread about VW's indiscretion (despite the two issues being wildly different), at least VW's issues haven't killed anyone. :beer: VW only tarnished their reputation. GM ruined the lives of dozens of families, after receiving a massive government bailout, and is getting up to three years of what equates to a punishment softer than probation.


----------



## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

Cooper said:


> F was below 2 in '09? What was that all about? Seems a lot more than the '08 - '09 correction.
> 
> Edit: Just read history. Didn't recall F being in such dire straits.


Yeah, they pretty much went bankrupt and quick major executive changes made them avoid a bailout.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

MyDirtyDiesel said:


> The under hood oil pressure gauge, now that is original!


OMG, I didn't even notice where it was. 


> "55psi James!"


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

MyDirtyDiesel said:


> That's actually the 09A 5-speed slushbox :laugh:.


Hmm. Rightfully corrected. (I am not up on VW Automatic offerings.  )


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

If you aren't listening to Diane Rehm, you just missesd her asking her panelists to define "low-end torque."

:laugh:


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

"Volkswagen may have crossed a line, but cheating in emissions tests has been endemic for years and has had the blessing of the authorities"


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

improvius said:


> Volkswagen may have crossed a line, but cheating in emissions tests has been endemic for years and has had the blessing of the authorities


This could also describe Germany pre-WWII up until they crossed the line into Poland.


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

improvius said:


> "Volkswagen may have crossed a line, but cheating in emissions tests has been endemic for years and has had the blessing of the authorities"





> A recent investigation by Italian consumer organisation Altroconsumo found nine ways in which manufacturers are *legally allowed to cheat *during emissions tests. These include disconnecting the alternator to reduce the load on the engine, over-inflating the tyres to minimise rolling resistance, and even taping up panel gaps to reduce air resistance.
> 
> Such measures not only lower a car’s "official" emissions, but also give it an unrealistic fuel economy figure, which is why most of us struggle to get anywhere near the figure published in the manufacturer’s brochure.


Um. It's not cheating if it is legal. 

The whole point of tests and standards is to make sure everyone is on the same playing field. If everyone is doing tests the same way, the 'authorities' can simply raise the standards. 

Also, the article is Euro-centric. (At least) Some of those loopholes don't apply in the States. 

Just like with taxes, taking advantage of loop holes isn't illegal. If the authorities didn't want the loop holes there, they would close them up.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

More TCL citing:


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/22/us-usa-volkswagen-dealers-idUSKCN0RM2RE20150922



> "Thanks to VW's blatant and intentional fraud, I am now the subject of ridicule for having bragged about my good gas mileage and reliability," wrote one owner on the VW Vortex forum.


Who wrote that one? :laugh:


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> More TCL citing:
> 
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/22/us-usa-volkswagen-dealers-idUSKCN0RM2RE20150922
> ...


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7247213-Ouch&p=88332044&viewfull=1#post88332044


cary67 said:


> I have a 2012 Jetta TDI, a 2015 Passat TDI - and, just last week, purchased a 2015 Golf Sport Wagon TDI. I can tell you that if this fraud means that I now get lower gas mileage and less power/torque - I will personally sue (no class action bull****!) Volkswagen for damages in the State of California. I realize this is petty, but it is the real world. I'm pretty sure that my new Golf Sport Wagon already has the fix because it feels positively lame compared to my '15 Passat. Furthermore, I drove the wagon on a 70+ mile trip yesterday - a trip on which I routinely exceed 60 mpg in the Passat - and I could barely pull 40 mpg.
> 
> Thanks to VW's blatant and intentional fraud, I am now the subject of ridicule for having bragged about my good gas mileage and reliability. I cannot, for the life of me, see how the EPA should be entitled to $37,500 per car. That money should go to the people who bought these cars and were lied to.
> 
> ...


----------



## focalBlur (Dec 5, 2003)

How soon people forget. I doubt this will hurt VW very much in the long run. Just look at ford with the explorers 

"This isn’t the first instance of a car company caught cheating by using a “defeat device” on emissions tests. In 1998, Ford was fined $7.8 million for using defeat devices that allowed its Econoline vans to reduce emissions to pass testing, and then to exceed pollution limits when driving at highway speeds. The same year, Honda paid $17.1 million in fines for deliberately disabling a “misfire” device that warned about excess emissions. In 1995, General Motors paid $11 million in fines for the “defeat devices” on some of its Cadillac cars, which secretly overrode the emissions control system at times. The largest penalty for defeat devices to date was an $83.4 million fine in 1998 on Caterpillar, Volvo, Renault and other manufacturers."

Volkswagen and the Era of Cheating Software
SEPT. 23, 2015


----------



## ATL_Av8r (Oct 17, 2002)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> More TCL citing:
> 
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/22/us-usa-volkswagen-dealers-idUSKCN0RM2RE20150922
> ...


Reuters is valid! Bring on the Wikipedia edits again!!! :thumbup:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

mhjett said:


> If you aren't listening to Diane Rehm, you just missesd her asking her panelists to define "low-end torque."
> 
> :laugh:


How can you possibly listen to her? It's like listening to your senile grandmother. :facepalm:


----------



## Slipstream (Feb 8, 2002)

Smigelski said:


> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7247213-Ouch&p=88332044&viewfull=1#post88332044


Good grief... overly-dramatic much, cary67? :facepalm:


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

spockcat said:


> How can you possibly listen to her? It's like listening to your senile grandmother. :facepalm:


Pretty much what I pictured in my head when I googled the show. Nope, not gonna happen.


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

Winterkorn has stepped down, according to Spiegel and BILD.


----------



## MagnetoReluctance (Aug 14, 2003)

Yep, just came across the wire - Winterkorn is stepping down officially.....


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Kar98 said:


> Winterkorn has stepped down, according to Spiegel and BILD.


Here's his statement:



> “I am shocked by the events of the past few days. Above all, I am stunned that misconduct on such a scale was possible in the Volkswagen Group.
> 
> As CEO I accept responsibility for the irregularities that have been found in diesel engines and have therefore requested the Supervisory Board to agree on terminating my function as CEO of the Volkswagen Group. I am doing this in the interests of the company even though I am not aware of any wrongdoing on my part.
> 
> ...


----------



## adrew (Aug 15, 2003)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Pretty much what I pictured in my head when I googled the show. Nope, not gonna happen.


It's a good show - you get used to it. She has a condition that affects her speech.



article said:


> There's a medical explanation: spasmodic dysphonia – a neurological disorder that attacks the voice. And, in her case, there are surprising psychological side-effects as well – stage fright, shortness of breath, excruciating self-doubt.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/features/daily/rehm0823.htm


----------



## TangoRed (Sep 7, 2005)

focalBlur said:


> How soon people forget. I doubt this will hurt VW very much in the long run. Just look at ford with the explorers
> 
> "This isn’t the first instance of a car company caught cheating by using a “defeat device” on emissions tests. In 1998, Ford was fined $7.8 million for using defeat devices that allowed its Econoline vans to reduce emissions to pass testing, and then to exceed pollution limits when driving at highway speeds. The same year, Honda paid $17.1 million in fines for deliberately disabling a “misfire” device that warned about excess emissions. In 1995, General Motors paid $11 million in fines for the “defeat devices” on some of its Cadillac cars, which secretly overrode the emissions control system at times. The largest penalty for defeat devices to date was an $83.4 million fine in 1998 on Caterpillar, Volvo, Renault and other manufacturers."
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone thinks this is going to be a long-run issue. It's just great gossip now. I'd also like to point out the scope of this one is considerably bigger than the Ford/Honda/Cadillac deals. Not sure about the big-rig deal.


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Stock watch:
> 
> https://www.google.com/finance?chdn...e&q=ETR:VOW3&&fct=big&ei=RYsCVoGIJ87Ce-TBoOAK
> 
> It's holding pretty much steady ever since Winterkorn's statement yesterday. Still definitely not in 'buy' territory, in my opinion. I'm waiting to see if this drops into the 30-50 range. I think it's a definite possibility once all the penalties are finalized.


Agree, they make take another (and likely final) management reserve in addition to the Q3 ~7B already set aside. Some time AFTER this 2nd/Final reserve might be the best time. German government will do whatever it takes (bailout) to at least keep them afloat through the unavoidable turmoil of the next few years.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

adrew said:


> It's a good show - you get used to it. She has a condition that affects her speech.


Oh god, I didn't know she actually had a speech impediment. Still won't be listening, though. :laugh:


----------



## SVTJayC (Mar 30, 2006)

I have a theory. I believe someone at Porsche blew the whistle on this. If they can cripple VW financially AND reputationally, they can practically force them to sell the company back at a discount. Porsche stockholders (like myself) are livid that their stock is getting crushed by this BS parent company's actions, even though their sales numbers are killing it.


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

focalBlur said:


> *How soon people forget. I doubt this will hurt VW very much in the long run.* Just look at ford with the explorers
> 
> "This isn’t the first instance of a car company caught cheating by using a “defeat device” on emissions tests. In 1998, Ford was fined $7.8 million for using defeat devices that allowed its Econoline vans to reduce emissions to pass testing, and then to exceed pollution limits when driving at highway speeds. The same year, Honda paid $17.1 million in fines for deliberately disabling a “misfire” device that warned about excess emissions. In 1995, General Motors paid $11 million in fines for the “defeat devices” on some of its Cadillac cars, which secretly overrode the emissions control system at times. The largest penalty for defeat devices to date was an $83.4 million fine in 1998 on Caterpillar, Volvo, Renault and other manufacturers."
> 
> ...


I'd almost agree with that EXCEPT that we are talking about Diesels, a market that is very small, and constantly trying to win people over and fight old misconceptions already. Not to mention that the VW TDI was basically the only player in this very small market (Cruze has never been a big player).

A very small, very "tender" market like passenger car Diesel probably can't withstand this kind of bad press.


----------



## A&F (Feb 13, 2013)

SVTJayC said:


> I have a theory. I believe someone at Porsche blew the whistle on this. If they can cripple VW financially AND reputationally, they can practically force them to sell the company back at a discount. Porsche stockholders (like myself) are livid that their stock is getting crushed by this BS parent company, even though their sales numbers are killing it.


Best conspiracy theory yet.


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

spockcat said:


> How can you possibly listen to her? It's like listening to your senile grandmother. :facepalm:


The woman has a voice disorder and she's probably smarter than you are.

I don't usually write people off based on superficial disabilities, but whatevs....


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Kar98 said:


> Winterkorn has stepped down, according to Spiegel and BILD.


This saddens me. A lot. I am a fan of him and would prefer that he was staying on to lead the team through the mess. I do not want to see a return to Piech tactics.


----------



## thegoodson (Sep 8, 2005)

Crains Automotive News is reporting Winketorn is stepping down.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

mhjett said:


> The woman has a voice disorder and she's probably smarter than you are.
> 
> It's pretty easy to look past her disability.


She didn't have a stroke. She sounds like she does because of spasmodic dysphonia.

EDIT: Nice ninja edit


----------



## Ambrose Wolfinger (Feb 21, 2005)

+ 1 for Diane Rehm. Voice disorder aside, she's a great interviewer. I'd rather hear her on her worst day than listen to the raging blow hards on AM radio.


----------



## SVTJayC (Mar 30, 2006)

Yeah, she was great when she mistook a facebook comment for fact. She's a true professional <jacking motion>.


----------



## !millertime (May 19, 2006)

SVTJayC said:


> I have a theory. I believe someone at Porsche blew the whistle on this. If they can cripple VW financially AND reputationally, they can practically force them to sell the company back at a discount. Porsche stockholders (like myself) are livid that their stock is getting crushed by this BS parent company's actions, even though their sales numbers are killing it.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

Official statement here: http://www.volkswagenag.com/content/vwcorp/info_center/en/news/2015/09/Statement.html



> Statement by Prof. Dr. Winterkorn
> "“I am shocked by the events of the past few days. Above all, I am stunned that misconduct on such a scale was possible in the Volkswagen Group.
> 
> As CEO I accept responsibility for the irregularities that have been found in diesel engines and have therefore requested the Supervisory Board to agree on terminating my function as CEO of the Volkswagen Group. I am doing this in the interests of the company even though I am not aware of any wrong doing on my part.
> ...


----------



## SVTJayC (Mar 30, 2006)

!millertime said:


>


Sure...though the details of how VW got control of Porsche in the first place are no less far fetched.


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

focalBlur said:


> How soon people forget. I doubt this will hurt VW very much in the long run. Just look at ford with the explorers


Yeah, Firestone came out of that one just fine.

And, Explorers were very unpopular for a while. That one did hurt.



spockcat said:


> How can you possibly listen to her? It's like listening to your senile grandmother. :facepalm:


Who cares? Go listen to Taylor Swift if you want to hear a nice voice. The Diane Rehm show is serious and informative, i.e. what news should be.


----------



## Rogerthat (Oct 23, 2005)




----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

atomicalex said:


> I posted this in one of the other threads, but may as well over here, too.
> 
> Germany has a rule-based culture, and 90% of life is spent figuring out how to get around the rules while still obeying them. Spirit vs letter of the law. In the US, we prize the Spirit of the Law. In Germany, it is the Letter of the Law. Once I figured this out, my life in Germany got to be fantastically easy. Just figure out how to get around the rule while creatively applying it, and you are fine. VW's emissions control defeat programming would put the cars in compliance with the Letter of the Law, which specifies the testing conditions, while violating the Spirit of the Law which says "don't pollute". I did exactly the same things when prepping for my TÜV inspections - put the snow tyres with the fat tread on, etc.
> 
> I feel kind of funny saying this, but it's a cultural thing and I am willing to bet all of Internal Combustion knew exactly what was up and didn't really think it was that big of a deal. Oops.


Good theory, but still broke the "Letter", I think:

page 2 http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf

"a light-duty vehicle manufacturer must submit a COC application to the EPA for each test group of vehicles...the *application must include a list of all auxiliary emissions control devices (AECDs) installed*. An AECD is "any element of design which senses temperature, vehicle speed, engine RPM, transmission gear, manifold vacuum, or any other parameter for the purpose of activating, modulating, delaying, or deactivating the operation of any part of the emission control system."

So "by the letter(?)" it is not only illegal to game the system with a defeat device, it is *illegal to not declare/describe *any/all defeat device(s).

"screwed a poundful of pooches" seems entirely appropriate.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

ByronLLN said:


> Official statement here: http://www.volkswagenag.com/content/vwcorp/info_center/en/news/2015/09/Statement.html


Repost


----------



## uberR32 (May 4, 2004)

Just came to post . . .

Demand TTRS?

Prob 3 pages too late, but WTH?


----------



## mx425 (Nov 11, 2010)

Tdi trims erased from Vw US site and dealer inventory. Allegedly all going back to Vw. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Slipstream (Feb 8, 2002)

mx425 said:


> Tdi trims erased from Vw US site and dealer inventory. Allegedly all going back to Vw.


Fastest update of the VWOA site ever. :laugh:


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

uberR32 said:


> Just came to post . . .
> 
> Demand TTRS?
> 
> Prob 3 pages too late, but WTH?


Ten years after someone will realize you got a TTR and the TTRS badge was just a cheat device?


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

spockcat said:


> EDIT: Nice ninja edit






Ross1013 said:


> Who cares? Go listen to Taylor Swift if you want to hear a nice voice. The Diane Rehm show is serious and informative, i.e. what news should be.


Lets hope for spockcat's sake that s/he had no idea Rehm has a physical disability.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Waterfan said:


> So "by the letter(?)" it is not only illegal to game the system with a defeat device, it is *illegal to not declare/describe *any/all defeat device(s).
> 
> "screwed a poundful of pooches" seems entirely appropriate.


Oh, yeah. I have no idea how they missed that part. That is pure :banghead:.


----------



## Ryukein (Dec 10, 2006)

That was a classy statement from Winterkorn.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Rawcpoppa said:


> Ten years after someone will realize you got a TTR and the TTRS badge was just a cheat device?


S stands for sucker.


----------



## adrew (Aug 15, 2003)

Slipstream said:


> Fastest update of the VWOA site ever. :laugh:


It was definitely rushed - they were slack about it: "...four turbocharged engines..."









But then only three listed on the "Performance" page:


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Ryukein said:


> That was a classy statement from Winterkorn.


But let's be honest here, he meant none of it.


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

Ryukein said:


> That was a classy statement from Winterkorn.


...as read to the press by his former colleagues. Apparently he wasn't at the announcement in person.


----------



## Professor Gascan (Sep 11, 2002)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> But let's be honest here, he meant none of it.


Doesn't matter now: He Gone


----------



## Mikewastaken (Dec 13, 2002)

So from what I can tell it is now no longer possible to order a Golf with a sunroof, lighting package and manual transmission.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Professor Gascan said:


> Doesn't matter now: He Gone


I know. I posted 'his words' on the previous page.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

focalBlur said:


> How soon people forget. I doubt this will hurt VW very much in the long run. Just look at ford with the explorers


I'll spare you the lecture, but Ford did not cheat anything with their Explorers. The fact of the matter is that _any_ vehicle of that era could get a blowout and roll over if you never check your tire pressures and then overreact once the tread separates. The problem was not at all unique to Ford, which is why TPMS became mandatory for all vehicles, not just Ford Explorers, and why stability control likewise became mandatory for all vehicles, not just Ford Explorers. It was a problem that could happen to any vehicle at all. TPMS and ESC are mandatory for all vehicles now.

This would only be comparable to Ford if today, in an age when TPMS & ESC are required, a manufacturer reported that those systems are installed and working but then they really disabled them for every vehicle they sold. THAT is what VW did. They stated that a federally required piece of equipment was installed and working but then disabled it from the factory. Neither Ford nor anybody else is disabling TPMS & ESC on all their cars while reporting that it exists. VW intentionally disabled required equipment and then lied about it when confronted.


----------



## Electron Man (Sep 21, 1999)

Vapormike said:


> So from what I can tell it is now no longer possible to order a Golf with a sunroof, lighting package and *manual transmission.*


Yep, 2015 was the last year for a VW with 3 pedals.


----------



## ATL_Av8r (Oct 17, 2002)

ryukein said:


> that was a classy statement from winterkorn*'s recently-hired attorney/personal pr firm*.


ftfy


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

adrew said:


> It was definitely rushed - they were slack about it: "...four turbocharged engines..."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, so "Sport tuned suspension" is an engine option now. That's cool. Oh, it's only an optional feature though.


----------



## Ryukein (Dec 10, 2006)

improvius said:


> ...as read to the press by his former colleagues. Apparently he wasn't at the announcement in person.


Oh. That's... Not so classy :laugh:


----------



## nyexx (Dec 12, 2014)

*I*

I wonder if Volkswagen has also been engineering their vehicles to fall apart just outside the warranty period :laugh:


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

nyexx said:


> I wonder if Volkswagen has also been engineering their vehicles to fall apart just outside the warranty period :laugh:


My ECU did conveniently decide to take a crap at 37,000 miles :laugh:


----------



## Ryukein (Dec 10, 2006)

Automotive News is tweeting live statement updates from VW.

"The Executive Committee is expecting further personnel consequences in the next days."

"All participants in ... proceedings that has resulted in unmeasurable harm for Volkswagen, will be subject to the full consequences."

"We consider it our task that this company regains the trust of our customers in every respect."


----------



## Guvnor (Sep 30, 2011)

My personal theory how this happened (with apologies if someone has already come to the same conclusion on any of the other gazillion threads on this):

Its 2009 and VW have their hot new engine and models and a product launch deadline. But, there's still this annoying little problem with the US emissions compliance. So, let's do a little "cheat" and we'll come up with a permanent solution quickly, but at least we won't miss the deadline; it won't last long, no-one will ever find out. Trouble is, this annoying little problem is proving rather difficult to solve. And the years go by and the lie grows. Till, here we are today. 

Anyone wanna bet against me? Might be several years before we get the full story, but I'll be surprised if I'm wrong.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Electron Man said:


> Yep, 2015 was the last year for a VW with 3 pedals.


Except the GTI/GLI


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

Well, they couldn't exactly come out and say "F the EPA" now could they?


----------



## Mikewastaken (Dec 13, 2002)

With all the new sites trolling here for copy, there's never been a better time to try and communicate TCL's well-reasoned ideas for what VW should be doing to succeed in the US. 



> Members of enthusiast site VW Vortex almost universally agree that a decision to bring European offerings including the midsize pickup Amarok, sport coupe Scirocco and hybrid Golf GTE to US showrooms, along with reviving manual transmissions at all trim levels, would reinvigorate the ailing carmaker's fortunes stateside.


----------



## Slipstream (Feb 8, 2002)

adrew said:


> It was definitely rushed - they were slack about it: "...four turbocharged engines..."


Fast AND accurate is really reaching for the stars when it comes to VWoA site updates. 



Rabbit5GTI said:


> But let's be honest here, he meant none of it.


"Well boys, it's a very lovely ship. I think you should go down with it."


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Guvnor said:


> My personal theory how this happened (with apologies if someone has already come to the same conclusion on any of the other gazillion threads on this):
> 
> Its 2009 and VW have their hot new engine and models and a product launch deadline. But, there's still this annoying little problem with the US emissions compliance. So, let's do a little "cheat" and we'll come up with a permanent solution quickly, but at least we won't miss the deadline; it won't last long, no-one will ever find out. Trouble is, this annoying little problem is proving rather difficult to solve. And the years go by and the lie grows. Till, here we are today.
> 
> Anyone wanna bet against me? Might be several years before we get the full story, but I'll be surprised if I'm wrong.


I've been thinking the same thing. I suspect this "cheat" came from the engineering side of the business going along the lines another poster mentioned where engineers thought it was an elegant solution to comply with the letter of the law. Upper management might have never known but still has to take the fall for this scandal.


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

Guvnor said:


> My personal theory how this happened (with apologies if someone has already come to the same conclusion on any of the other gazillion threads on this):
> 
> Its 2009 and VW have their hot new engine and models and a product launch deadline. But, there's still this annoying little problem with the US emissions compliance. So, let's do a little "cheat" and we'll come up with a permanent solution quickly, but at least we won't miss the deadline; it won't last long, no-one will ever find out. Trouble is, this annoying little problem is proving rather difficult to solve. And the years go by and the lie grows. Till, here we are today.
> 
> Anyone wanna bet against me? Might be several years before we get the full story, but I'll be surprised if I'm wrong.


It probably started back in 2007. That's when the new emissions rules kicked in. I'm sure VW wanted to bring out its new TDI in 2007, but it was delayed until 2009.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Vapormike said:


> With all the new sites trolling here for copy, there's never been a better time to try and communicate TCL's well-reasoned ideas for what VW should be doing to succeed in the US.


They need to bring us an MQB Jetta and Passat instead of giving us Europe's 4 Yr old hand-me-downs. I mean the car is already designed, the manufacturing is figured out, all they need to do is retool the factories and make it! And they've already done all that so none of it is a new process, just strip out the features that are too expensive or illegal in the us market and *make* the darn thing!


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Ryukein said:


> "All participants in ... proceedings that has resulted in unmeasurable harm for Volkswagen, will be subject to the full consequences."


Johann packs Korn if Martin goes to jail, Johann packs Korn if Martin goes to jail, Johann packs Korn if Martin goes to jail, ole Volkswagen gone away!


----------



## jmatero (May 24, 2000)

Now we know why the Mazda 6 diesel is MIA. Power/emissions/mpg balance not achievable. We'll never see it now.


----------



## cryption (Mar 28, 2006)

Not sure this has been posted - but people are discussing the pros / cons of a buyout by Fiat / merger with Fiat. Now this is kinda click-bait'ish to me - I couldn't possibly imagine this ever happening. But I'm going to post the link anyway so we can have something to talk about.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...ns-door-to-fiat-takeover/ar-AAeFCfW?li=AA4Zjn


----------



## Rage In The Machines (Aug 27, 2002)

Why do I think Ferdinand Piech was the one who whistled blew VW........lol. Looks like he will be back in control. Excellent move Ferdinand.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

jmatero said:


> Now we know why the Mazda 6 diesel is MIA. Power/emissions/mpg balance not achievable. We'll never see it now.


I think diesel filling the crankcase was Mazdas biggest issue.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Guvnor said:


> My personal theory how this happened (with apologies if someone has already come to the same conclusion on any of the other gazillion threads on this):
> 
> Its 2009 and VW have their hot new engine and models and a product launch deadline. But, there's still this annoying little problem with the US emissions compliance. So, let's do a little "cheat" and we'll come up with a permanent solution quickly, but at least we won't miss the deadline; it won't last long, no-one will ever find out. Trouble is, this annoying little problem is proving rather difficult to solve. And the years go by and the lie grows. Till, here we are today.
> 
> Anyone wanna bet against me? Might be several years before we get the full story, but I'll be surprised if I'm wrong.





2.0T_Convert said:


> I've been thinking the same thing. I suspect this "cheat" came from the engineering side of the business going along the lines another poster mentioned where engineers thought it was an elegant solution to comply with the letter of the law. Upper management might have never known but still has to take the fall for this scandal.





Smigelski said:


> It probably started back in 2007. That's when the new emissions rules kicked in. I'm sure VW wanted to bring out its new TDI in 2007, but it was delayed until 2009.


Sifting through some of the flat-out stupid conspiracy theories, this is by far the most reasonable explanation.

The only thing I would counter is that upper management _had_ to know about this. It also would prove to be a reasonable explanation as to why Urea was added in to the Golf VII platform. If the old DPF system was 'working so well' at controlling emissions on the smaller TDIs, why the sudden change of course? I thought I read somewhere a while back that originally, the VII platform here in the states was going to continue on without Urea, but then was changed virtually last-minute? Or am I mistaken?


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Rage In The Machines said:


> Why do I think Ferdinand Piech was the one who whistled blew VW........lol. Looks like he will be back in control. Excellent move Ferdinand.


One of his henchmen, probably. But he won't.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

jmatero said:


> Now we know why the Mazda 6 diesel is MIA. Power/emissions/mpg balance not achievable. We'll never see it now.


Indeed; see my apology to Mazda back on page...something. Smart people in Hiroshima.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

_But he continued to insist that he personally had committed no misconduct. “I am not aware of any wrongdoing on my part,” he said._

That's right up there with "I did not have sex with that woman."


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Guvnor said:


> My personal theory how this happened (with apologies if someone has already come to the same conclusion on any of the other gazillion threads on this):
> 
> Its 2009 and VW have their hot new engine and models and a product launch deadline. But, there's still this annoying little problem with the US emissions compliance. So, let's do a little "cheat" and we'll come up with a permanent solution quickly, but at least we won't miss the deadline; it won't last long, no-one will ever find out. Trouble is, this annoying little problem is proving rather difficult to solve. And the years go by and the lie grows. Till, here we are today.
> 
> Anyone wanna bet against me? Might be several years before we get the full story, but I'll be surprised if I'm wrong.


Was going to post something similar. :thumbup:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> I thought I read somewhere a while back that originally, the VII platform here in the states was going to continue on without Urea, but then was changed virtually last-minute? Or am I mistaken?


it would explain why VW went from 2 models with Urea to all of them having it without much explanation.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Sifting through some of the flat-out stupid conspiracy theories, this is by far the most reasonable explanation.
> 
> The only thing I would counter is that upper management _had_ to know about this. It also would prove to be a reasonable explanation as to why Urea was added in to the Golf VII platform. If the old DPF system was 'working so well' at controlling emissions on the smaller TDIs, why the sudden change of course? I thought I read somewhere a while back that originally, the VII platform here in the states was going to continue on without Urea, but then was changed virtually last-minute? Or am I mistaken?


If the engineers provide solid looking numbers then this cheat could have gone on for a looooong time. I mean look what happened at Hyundai when engineers had an "error" in number inputs 

In some ways I think the real failure here is nobody thinking outside the box to test emissions outside of a controlled test environment. But looking at how grossly overstated mileage numbers are in Europe I don't think real world accuracy is a priority for the Germans.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

Love the headline at Yahoo.Finance ...

_Volkswagen CEO steps down, Starbucks' worker problem, and possible ESPN layoffs_

Like the SAT question, which of these does not belong?


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Guvnor said:


> My personal theory how this happened (with apologies if someone has already come to the same conclusion on any of the other gazillion threads on this):
> 
> Its 2009 and VW have their hot new engine and models and a product launch deadline. But, there's still this annoying little problem with the US emissions compliance. So, let's do a little "cheat" and we'll come up with a permanent solution quickly, but at least we won't miss the deadline; it won't last long, no-one will ever find out. Trouble is, this annoying little problem is proving rather difficult to solve. And the years go by and the lie grows. Till, here we are today.
> 
> Anyone wanna bet against me? Might be several years before we get the full story, but I'll be surprised if I'm wrong.


...except for the fact that this goes back to MkV Jetta TDI's, first sold in late 2005, but having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if there could be some truth in this.


----------



## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> it would explain why VW went from 2 models with Urea to all of them having it without much explanation.


aren't the new MKVII TDI with urea a different engine than the 09-14 TDI?


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Numbersix said:


> ...except for the fact that this goes back to MkV Jetta TDI's, first sold in late 2005, but having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if there could be some truth in this.


How is the fact that the old 1.9L TDI in the '05 and '06 models relevant to his theory? While that older engine was first placed in the first run of MkVs, it still provides a reasonable explanation for VW trying to meet the deadline to get the new engine up to snuff. They obviously _wanted_ to make it ready for the '07 model year, and were not able to do that. It makes a lot of sense, actually.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Numbersix said:


> ...except for the fact that this goes back to MkV Jetta TDI's, first sold in late 2005, but having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if there could be some truth in this.


Or even... diesel cars have always been worse in real world conditions compared to dyno tests.
But as technology allowed more control, it slowly went from unintentional to on purpose...and then just got exaggerated with each new standard and engine.
Every little step was seen as acceptable... but when you step back and look at the big picture.. it's gone way past a little number fudge.


If it's so easy for the ecu to detect "dyno test mode", this seems like something ANY modern car could have.
It will be interesting to see if anybody outside of VW group has such a dual ecu program.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

DasCC said:


> aren't the new MKVII TDI with urea a different engine than the 09-14 TDI?


Yes. The earlier cars were the CBEA and CJAA engines.


----------



## WinterWagon (Nov 7, 2012)

Is there any precedence in the US of older vehicles not allowed on the road due to new regulation? If your car's systems are functioning as they were when new..

IE Model T Fords are probably not EPA compliant, but they can still drive on the roads, correct?

I'd like to keep my ALH powered MkIVs.. Rolling coal, and all


----------



## grounded87 (Nov 5, 2002)

WinterWagon said:


> Is there any precedence in the US of older vehicles not allowed on the road due to new regulation? If your car's systems are functioning as they were when new..


Nope.



WinterWagon said:


> IE Model T Fords are probably not EPA compliant, but they can still drive on the roads, correct?


Correct.



WinterWagon said:


> I'd like to keep my ALH powered MkIVs.. Rolling coal, and all


Roll on, ye ALH shall ride to infinity and beyond.


----------



## SnowGTI2003 (Jan 8, 2004)

Checked the last 25 pages to see if that had already been posted.... Might still be a repost.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

BRealistic said:


> Or even... diesel cars have always been worse in real world conditions compared to dyno tests.


I would bet that stands true for ALL cars when driven outside of the EPA's test protocols.


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

Surf Green said:


> I would bet that stands true for ALL cars when driven outside of the EPA's test protocols.


Thing is the BMW X5 they tested along side the Passat and the Jetta passed even though the drive was outside the EPA's test protocols. That was one of the flags raised.


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

In related news, platinum prices are taking a beating in the market, apparently because the element is used in diesel catalytic converters.


----------



## SnowGTI2003 (Jan 8, 2004)

Martin Winterkorn resigns as Volkswagen CEO
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/23/martin-winterkorn-resigns-as-volkswagen-ceo.html


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

SnowGTI2003 said:


> Martin Winterkorn resigns as Volkswagen CEO
> http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/23/martin-winterkorn-resigns-as-volkswagen-ceo.html


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

improvius said:


> In related news, platinum prices are taking a beating in the market, apparently because the element is used in diesel catalytic converters.


It's also used in gasoline catalytic converters.


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

Peloton25 said:


> When you are chief executive of a company and an incident like this (which your leadership absolutely should have avoided) tarnishes the brand image cultivated over decades and manages to wipe out more than 25% of the shareholder value in under a week, you do not get to keep your job.
> 
> Winterkorn fell on his sword with this morning's video, even if it wasn't announced. This will quickly become someone else's mess to clean up.
> 
> ...





Ross1013 said:


> I don't know which of these competing narratives will come true, but I can't ****ing wait to find out!


Well that didn't take long.  

I almost could have written the statement for them.

>8^)
ER


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

BRealistic said:


> Or even... diesel cars have always been worse in real world conditions compared to dyno tests.
> But as technology allowed more control, it slowly went from unintentional to on purpose...and then just got exaggerated with each new standard and engine.
> Every little step was seen as acceptable... but when you step back and look at the big picture.. it's gone way past a little number fudge.
> 
> ...


I am in line with this.

Let's review technology...... Because up until a certain amount of tech was available, an actual defeat device was possible. This is not a device. This is a code hack. 

Late 1990s and OBDII is standard. Emissions testing simplifies with code reading and people become comfortable with testing-by-wire. Fewer authorities are equipped with actual exhaust probes.

Early 2000s and traction control is starting to become available. Powered by Bosch ABS, it requires wheel speed sensors. This is one of the key parts of the VW hack. 

Mid 2000s and traction control is starting to get more sophisticated. Instead of just relying on wheel speed differentials, yaw sensing becomes part of the package, and this requires steering angle input. This is a second key part of the hack.

Mid 2000s and the CANBUS fully takes over, distributing data from all modules to all modules on one big network. This is the part of the hack that allows it to hide in the system as latent code. 

As a coder, I would call it malware. 

Late 2000s and Diesels, which were inherently difficult to manage but up until mid 2000s legal, are coming under more stringent emissions requirements. There is enough information on the CANBUS to self-diagnose a testing sequence, and VW engineers are quick to deploy the hack to buy time.

2014 and time expires. All stops are pulled out to get a functional fix in place, a fix which does not materialize.

2015 and time expires again, this time, for good. VW announces to EPA that it cannot provide the complete fix. EPA publishes the report and VW announces the hack to the buying public.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Surf Green said:


> I would bet that stands true for ALL cars when driven outside of the EPA's test protocols.


Every car manufacturer cheats testing in some way and it is accepted by testing authorities according to this article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/col...dal-the-authorities-have-encouraged-cheating/


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

SnowGTI2003 said:


> Martin Winterkorn resigns as Volkswagen CEO
> http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/23/martin-winterkorn-resigns-as-volkswagen-ceo.html


Moisturize me!!


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Someone with a TDI needs to get a plate that reads "Roll Coal". :laugh:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

atomicalex said:


> I am in line with this.
> 
> Let's review technology...... Because up until a certain amount of tech was available, an actual defeat device was possible. This is not a device. This is a code hack.
> 
> ...


i love it when you talk nerdy.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Surf Green said:


> I would bet that stands true for ALL cars when driven outside of the EPA's test protocols.


Yes, it's a safe bet that all cars are "tuned" to deliver the best emissions during EPA's tests which is not Illegal, where VW screwed up was by setting up a whole separate program that only ran during testing and not disclosing that to the EPA. I wonder if throttle inputs are so specific on the test cycle that you could essentially do what VW did without having a "dyno mode". Like if you started up the car and immediately gave it 25-30% throttle for precisely between 5-6 to reach exactly 35mph (I'm obviously making the numbers up) that it would kick in "EPA mode". The only thing that made it illegal was the fact that it could never possibly be engaged under normal driving conditions because there would always be steering input.

Imagine given a specific car the EPA test would use 24-28% throttle and 42-46% throttle. A Manufacturer could tune their ECU to:

"super-lean now me and the mad scientist gotta rip apart the block and replace the piston rings you fried, Holy MPGs Batman, OMG NOX, No! think of the children!" for throttle inputs between 0-23% and 29-41% and "POOOOOOWAAAHH! - Jeremy Clarkson, black smoke" between 47-100% Throttle.

Of course that window gets significantly smaller if they test between 15-80% throttle inputs and you would most certainly hit EPA mode in the real world.


----------



## makasay (Apr 19, 2013)

Where is shomegrown? :laugh:

I don't visit this board often anymore but I had to come back for this.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

WinterWagon said:


> Is there any precedence in the US of older vehicles not allowed on the road due to new regulation? If your car's systems are functioning as they were when new..


Because of ex post facto, if something is certified as a road legal car, it tends to keep its standing as a road legal car. The issue here is that VW sold vehicles that were NOT road legal cars, so ex post facto does not apply, since they committed fraud in getting certification in the first place.

This is actually more like all those R33 & R34 Skyline GT-R's that were imported and given certification that should have only been granted to R32 Skylines. Although the R33's and R34's were initially given certification, it was revoked and many cars were seized after the fact because the certification was fraudulent. That's the closest real-world case I can think of.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

JitteryJoe said:


> Imagine given a specific car the EPA test would use 24-28% throttle and 42-46% throttle. A Manufacturer could tune their ECU to:
> "POOOOOOWAAAHH! - Jeremy Clarkson, black smoke" between 47-100% Throttle.


this needs to be a feature where his voice is played over the sound system when you mash the throttle.:laugh:


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

DJMRDARK said:


> Someone with a TDI needs to get a plate that reads "Roll Coal". :laugh:


I'm sure there's one out there


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Guvnor said:


> My personal theory how this happened (with apologies if someone has already come to the same conclusion on any of the other gazillion threads on this):
> 
> Its 2009 and VW have their hot new engine and models and a product launch deadline. But, there's still this annoying little problem with the US emissions compliance. So, let's do a little "cheat" and we'll come up with a permanent solution quickly, but at least we won't miss the deadline; it won't last long, no-one will ever find out. Trouble is, this annoying little problem is proving rather difficult to solve. And the years go by and the lie grows. Till, here we are today.
> 
> Anyone wanna bet against me? Might be several years before we get the full story, but I'll be surprised if I'm wrong.


Possible this is how it happened but similar to the Accountant who takes money out of petty cash to get through a rough month (planned on paying it back next month) only to end up in jail years later when the problem got out of hand, someone made a decision to break the law and hoped they didn't get caught. 

Also possible Engineering was told they had cost constraints, a time deadline, and this was a project that could not fail, go over budget and had to meet performance targets. Engineering couldn't make it happen and someone decided that breaking the law was better than the alternative.

On a side note, I am surprised at the number of people here that are upset with either the "unfair tests" or the EPA. I guess some also blame the IRS or the government when someone gets caught for tax evasion.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

makasay said:


> Where is shomegrown? :laugh:
> 
> I don't visit this board often anymore but I had to come back for this.


Probably under a social media gag order.


----------



## RacingManiac (Mar 19, 2011)

JitteryJoe said:


> Yes, it's a safe bet that all cars are "tuned" to deliver the best emissions during EPA's tests which is not Illegal, where VW screwed up was by setting up a whole separate program that only ran during testing and not disclosing that to the EPA. I wonder if throttle inputs are so specific on the test cycle that you could essentially do what VW did without having a "dyno mode". Like if you started up the car and immediately gave it 25-30% throttle for precisely between 5-6 to reach exactly 35mph (I'm obviously making the numbers up) that it would kick in "EPA mode". The only thing that made it illegal was the fact that it could never possibly be engaged under normal driving conditions because there would always be steering input.
> 
> Imagine given a specific car the EPA test would use 24-28% throttle and 42-46% throttle. A Manufacturer could tune their ECU to:
> 
> ...


I mean all the cycles are standardized...

https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/cycles/ftp72.php

https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/cycles/ftp75.php

https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/cycles/#us-ld

I think the easy way of doing it is to see if the wheel speed difference or something to identify itself as being on a test bench. But more hard to detect way is to make use of the available input to guess if its on a specific test cycle schedule(with some degree of accuracy allowed) and then assume the "test mode". I was saying in other thread, I think if they did the latter if VW did not already admit to doing this, I doubt EPA/CARB can actually prove it from looking at the code.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

JitteryJoe said:


> Yes, it's a safe bet that all cars are "tuned" to deliver the best emissions during EPA's tests which is not Illegal, where VW screwed up was by setting up a whole separate program that only ran during testing and not disclosing that to the EPA.


No doubt. VW didn't just screw up by cheating, but by not meeting the EPA levels at all. 
If you look at the EPA's FTP protocol, it's ridiculously gentle, never asking for more than 3.3mph/sec acceleration. I don't know anyone who drives like that.
That's why I would expect a lot of cars (diesel, or not) to exceed EPA limits when being driven hard, and why I take thie 15-40X number with a grain of salt.

Yes, the X5 managed, but the X5 also uses urea. I don't recall which model/year VWs were tested, which ones use Urea, and how they fared comparatively.


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

classicjetta said:


> Probably under a social media gag order.


:laugh:


----------



## BLK9GEN (Sep 27, 2001)

makasay said:


> Where is shomegrown? :laugh:
> 
> I don't visit this board often anymore but I had to come back for this.


He and caj1 are at the bar drowning their sorrows.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Surf Green said:


> If you look at the EPA's FTP protocol, it's ridiculously gentle, never asking for more than 3.3mph/sec acceleration. I don't know anyone who drives like that.


Since 2008 they have also applied the US06 test which includes acceleration rates of up to "8.46 mph (13.62 km/h) per second." Now that's on the fuel economy side of the house; I'm not sure if they monitor smog emissions during those tests, but I would certainly hope so. VW may end up being the reason new emissions laws are enacted, similar to how TPMS & ESC came from the Explorer/Firestone problems.


----------



## BetterByDesign (Sep 7, 2004)

Surf Green said:


> No doubt. VW didn't just screw up by cheating, but by not meeting the EPA levels at all.
> If you look at the EPA's FTP protocol, it's ridiculously gentle, never asking for more than 3.3mph/sec acceleration. I don't know anyone who drives like that.


The "cheat" program apparantly worked according to EPA standards and protocol. To be honest, it's quite brilliant on its own merit. 

Remember it was apparantly a team at University of West Virginia that was able to detect a material deviation worthy of attention, not the EPA.

I would think that should put some restraint on the EPA glasshouse if they plan to throw stones at VW.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

BetterByDesign said:


> The "cheat" program apparantly worked according to EPA standards and protocol. To be honest, it's quite brilliant on its own merit.
> 
> Remember it was apparantly a team at University of West Virginia that was able to detect a material deviation worthy of attention, not the EPA.
> 
> I would think that should put some restraint on the EPA glasshouse if they plan to throw stones at VW.


The EPA doesn't have the resources at its disposal to be conducting in-depth testing of each model like that. The feds have nothing to be ashamed of in that regard.


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

BetterByDesign said:


> The "cheat" program apparantly worked according to EPA standards and protocol. To be honest, it's quite brilliant on its own merit.
> 
> Remember it was apparantly a team at University of West Virginia that was able to detect a material deviation worthy of attention, not the EPA.
> 
> I would think that should put some restraint on the EPA glasshouse if they plan to throw stones at VW.


Totally agree with you. Perhaps how this whole thing happened is that VW thought, or actually knew, that EPA did not have the resources to detect this. But little did they know some NGO would sniff it out, no pun intended, and tip EPA off. I can't really fathom how else anyone at VW with any authority could possibly have taken this risk.


----------



## Lackey (Mar 14, 2000)

mhjett said:


> Totally agree with you. Perhaps how this whole thing happened is that VW thought, or actually knew, that EPA did not have the resources to detect this. But little did they know some NGO would sniff it out, no pun intended, and tip EPA off. I can't really fathom how else anyone at VW with any authority could possibly have taken this risk.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

ByronLLN said:


> The EPA doesn't have the resources at its disposal to be conducting in-depth testing of each model like that. The feds have nothing to be ashamed of in that regard.


$8,200,000,000 budget for 2014.
Are you kidding me?
How much does the government need?

Communism is alive and well...


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

jp71624 said:


> $8,200,000,000 budget for 2014.
> Are you kidding me?
> How much does the government need?
> 
> Communism is alive and well...


I see we're back to the moronic posts.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> I see we're back to the moronic posts.


Confused lefties need not apply.


----------



## Howboutcha C'mon (Oct 11, 2009)

Has Prison Planet released an article on this yet?


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> I'm not sure if they monitor smog emissions during those tests, but I would certainly hope so.


I think that's fuel economy only.

Imagine if they did monitor emissions, and half the cars that passed the original test failed. The EPA would have to increase their limits, and that wouldn't look good on a graph. :laugh:


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

jp71624 said:


> $8,200,000,000 budget for 2014.
> Are you kidding me?
> How much does the government need?
> 
> Communism is alive and well...


:facepalm:

The government needs a LOT more than that, but they're being hamstringed by people like you who don't understand what it takes to have a functional society. 

If the EPA were funded enough to do more rigorous testing....
- they could have caught this years ago
- VW would not have infringed for so long
- Less impact to shareholder value due to VW stock tanking
- Less impact to consumers now in possession of non-compliant vehicles.

Better to spend up-front than to have to put out fires and clean up a mess, but that requires enlightened forward thinking which the "OMG THE GUBMINT IS TAKING MY MONEY" crowd is incapable of.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

OOOO-A3 said:


> If the EPA were funded enough to do more rigorous testing....


Since the high levels of NOx in the atmosphere will surely render us infertile howsabout we funnel the planned parenthood funding over to the EPA? Seriously, kills two birds one stone, lab assistants get funding for more in-house testing of cars and trained how to do pap smears, which is probably the closest chance to getting laid a lot of them will have :thumbup:


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

jp71624 said:


> $8,200,000,000 budget for 2014.
> Are you kidding me?
> How much does the government need?
> 
> Communism is alive and well...


So what qualifies you to determine what an agency's funding should be? Do you have access to their payroll and project data? Do you know what each department does and how much it costs to do it? Do you even understand their mission?


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

DJMRDARK said:


> So what qualifies you to determine what an agency's funding should be? Do you have access to their payroll and project data? Do you know what each department does and how much it costs to do it? Do you even understand their mission?


Watch out! He's gonna call you a lefty.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Watch out! He's gonna call you a lefty.


I tend not to fear mouth breathers.  I'm sure he owns a Trump hat as well. :laugh:


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Surf Green said:


> No doubt. VW didn't just screw up by cheating, but by not meeting the EPA levels at all.
> If you look at the EPA's FTP protocol, it's ridiculously gentle, never asking for more than 3.3mph/sec acceleration. I don't know anyone who drives like that.
> That's why I would expect a lot of cars (diesel, or not) to exceed EPA limits when being driven hard, and why I take thie 15-40X number with a grain of salt.
> 
> Yes, the X5 managed, but the X5 also uses urea. I don't recall which model/year VWs were tested, which ones use Urea, and how they fared comparatively.


You're misunderstanding the test results. The X5 behaved exactly as you're describing - it exceeded only when at very high loads, and was within limits the rest of the time. That's acceptable, and expected. Both VWs exceeded the Bin 5 limit of 0.5g/mile at all times - the Jetta without urea exceeded it by 15-35x depending on load. The Passat exceeded it by 5-20x depending on load on the predefined test routes; interestingly, its emissions fell to the legal limit on one stretch of I-5 that was extremely flat, and then only when the cruise control was on. With that limited exception, exceedances occurred unequivocally at all loads - not just at the highest load and compliant the rest of the time. 



> Real-world NOx emissions were found to exceed the US-EPA Tier2-Bin5 (at full useful life) standard by a factor of 15 to 35 for the LNT-equipped vehicle, by a factor of 5 to 20 for one, and at or below the standard for the second urea-SCR fitted vehicle over five pre-defined routes categorized based on their predominant driving conditions, namely, i) highway, ii) urban/suburban, and iii) rural-up/downhill driving. The second urea-SCR equipped vehicle exceeded the standard only during rural-up/downhill operating conditions by a factor of ~10. Most importantly, distance-specific NOx emissions for the two high-emitting vehicles were below the US-EPA Tier2-Bin5 standard for the weighted average over the FTP-75 certification cycle during chassis dynamometer testing at CARB's El Monte facility, with 0.022g/km ±0.006g/km (±1σ, 2 repeats) and 0.016g/km ±0.002g/km (±1σ, 3 repeats) for the LNT and urea-SCR equipped vehicles, respectively. It has to be noted that on-road emissions testing was performed with the engine and after-treatment in warmed-up condition (i.e. warm/hot start). Increased NOx emissions are usually expected for cold-start as seen during the first portion (i.e. 'Bag-1') of the FTP-75 cycle, however, not for hot, running conditions as exhibited during 'Bag-2 and 3' of the FTP-75 cycle or on-road operation of the vehicle. Generally, distance-specific NOx emissions were observed to be highest for rural up/downhill and lowest for high-speed highway driving conditions with relatively flat terrain.


http://www.theicct.org/use-emissions-testing-light-duty-diesel-vehicles-us

If you're going to take numbers with a grain of salt, you have to take the initiative to really look into how they were calculated. ICCT's results are published, publicly available, and their conclusions are not ambiguous: this is not simply an issue at high load.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

DJMRDARK said:


> I tend not to fear mouth breathers.  I'm sure he owns a Trump hat as well. :laugh:


Make America Great Again!


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Watch out! He's gonna call you a lefty.


I support the EPA and I'm left handed, so it all makes sense really.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

OOOO-A3 said:


> :facepalm:
> 
> The government needs a LOT more than that, but they're being hamstringed by people like you who don't understand what it takes to have a functional society.
> 
> ...


That wasn't the budget for "the government". That was the budget for the EPA alone. 

You volunteer your money to be wasted all you want; funny how you folks like to speak for everyone else's hard earned money, though.  Nothing new.


----------



## ElixXxeR (Jan 18, 2005)

Surf Green said:


> Yes, the X5 managed, but the X5 also uses urea. I don't recall which model/year VWs were tested, *which ones use Urea, and how they fared comparatively.*


I was very curious about this (the pops has a 2013 Passat TDI) and a couple of articles purport that the 2.0 models with urea injection also fail to meet regulations when not in defeat mode, but to a lesser degree: 5-15 times NOx level vs. 15-40, as reported.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

Turbio! said:


> You're misunderstanding the test results.


I understand them just fine. I'm not making any claims about what the number actually is... just that it requires the EPA FTP cycle to generate that number if you want it to carry any scientific credibility.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

DJMRDARK said:


> So what qualifies you to determine what an agency's funding should be? Do you have access to their payroll and project data? Do you know what each department does and how much it costs to do it? Do you even understand their mission?


Common sense qualifies me to say having a soon-to-be $10 billion budget doesn't = "they don't have the resources". If that's not their choice to allocate the funds to regulate such a project then so be it, but their proposed '16 budget is almost half a billion more than the '14 budget...how they use it is their problem.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

DJMRDARK said:


> I tend not to fear mouth breathers.  I'm sure he owns a Trump hat as well.


I don't, but better than your Billary '16 bumper sticker, I suppose... 

EDIT: I saw you're from CA. Explains everything. Best wishes...lol.


----------



## Dravenport (Dec 20, 2010)




----------



## Basil Fawlty (Sep 7, 2003)

This thread is wild!


----------



## Eye Candy White (Nov 9, 2006)

The official documentation I've seen indicates that this impacts the MKVII EA288 TDI with urea injection; is this true?

As others have said; I now own a MKVII TDI GSW, and comparing it's torque and mileage with older TDI wagons that I've driven seems quite different (i.e. lower on the new car).

Curious if we yet know if the urea injected cars are truly impacted, or if the "fix" had already gone into play with this new car...?
VW has obviously been mandated to stop selling the 2016's arriving on lots now, but am not sure if this is more just in reaction to the broader scandal, or if the MKVII cars are actually impacted by this emmissions defeat as well...?

Thoughts?


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Surf Green said:


> I understand them just fine. I'm not making any claims about what the number actually is... just that it requires the EPA FTP cycle to generate that number if you want it to carry any scientific credibility.


The EPA FTP cycle is critical for regulatory purposes, but since the affected cars all skirt that, this is the best we have. And in my opinion, there's nothing wrong with this particular experiment as a reflection of real-world emissions performance. It's not a badly designed test protocol, the equipment they used is standard for this sort of thing, they repeated their measurements enough that the results are durable. If anything, they were conservative.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

jp71624 said:


> Common sense qualifies me to say having a soon-to-be $10 billion budget doesn't = "they don't have the resources". If that's not their choice to allocate the funds to regulate such a project then so be it, but their proposed '16 budget is almost half a billion more than the '14 budget...how they use it is their problem.


Common sense doesn't qualify you to wipe your ass, and it certainly doesn't qualify you to determine when a budget is too much. Especially when you lack any *hard data points* on which to make a qualified assessment. What are their responsibilities and mission parameters relative to 2014? What has changed? Do you know exactly? What about staffing levels? Benefits for each employee? How much more work are they being asked to do in 2016? Do you have this information? No you don't. So do us all a favor and shut up about things you know nothing about.

That's the problem today. Too many know-nothings with inflated egos making themselves out to being "experts". 

Crawl back to your chair and watch the "news".eace:


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

Eye Candy White said:


> The official documentation I've seen indicates that this impacts the MKVII EA288 TDI with urea injection; is this true?
> 
> As others have said; I now own a MKVII TDI GSW, and comparing it's torque and mileage with older TDI wagons that I've driven seems quite different (i.e. lower on the new car).
> 
> ...


Check out this thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...e-with-the-modified-EPA-compliant-TDI-ECM-map

There was a campaign that attempted to mitigate some of the TDI issues before the EPA got them to fess up to cheating. If you purchased your car after that, you do likely have a map that is less fuel efficient than the older models'.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

jp71624 said:


> I don't, but better than your Billary '16 bumper sticker, I suppose...
> 
> EDIT: I saw you're from CA. Explains everything. Best wishes...lol.


I'm not from California. I live here. If you'd been around here long enough you'd know I've lived all over the US and out of it.

Also - I don't do bumper stickers, though I may do a retro ride at some point with some on it for kicks. I certainly don't do political ones.

And lastly you don't know my politics. I just don't like stupid uninformed people polluting the forum with their wacky Fox News nonsense. Especially when what they say is easily dismissed with a simple Google search and actual sources.

And you can keep your wishes. With the amount of stupid you spew I wouldn't trust them. :laugh:


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

DJMRDARK said:


> I'm not from California. I live here. If you'd been around here long enough you'd know I've lived all over the US and out of it.
> 
> Also - I don't do bumper stickers, though I may do a retro ride at some point with some on it for kicks. I certainly don't do political ones.
> 
> ...


Not being from CA but choosing to be there doesn't help out your argument or your judgment.
Don't let me waste your time, though. There's got to be a drum circle or parade I'm keeping you from!


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Turbio! said:


> The EPA FTP cycle is critical for regulatory purposes, but since the affected cars all skirt that, this is the best we have. And in my opinion, there's nothing wrong with this particular experiment as a reflection of real-world emissions performance. It's not a badly designed test protocol, the equipment they used is standard for this sort of thing, they repeated their measurements enough that the results are durable. If anything, they were conservative.


Ich stimme zu. I agree. When I read it, it sounds like a decently sorted research project. 

I find it amazing that the EPA gets done what it does get done. $8B is not much to try to keep up with all of the shenanigans going on in the US.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

Since we're now politicising everything, it is possible to be a Republican and think Fox News is effed. One just needs to know when to say when to the Koolaid is all.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

jp71624 said:


> Not being from CA but choosing to be there doesn't help out your argument or your judgment.
> Don't let me waste your time, though. There's got to be a drum circle or parade I'm keeping you from!


I play guitar and synthesizer, not drums.  Also choosing to be in California in order to make a lot of money does not infer a lack of intellect. But getting in TCL and posting a bunch of anti-intellectual nonsense DOES. But I know the irony of this goes unnoticed by you. :beer:


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Since we're now politicising everything, it is possible to be a Republican and think Fox News is effed. One just needs to know when to say when to the Koolaid is all.


You all are probably the ones paying a cable bill that...wait for it...funds the mainstream media, including Fox. Lol Well done!


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Since we're now politicising everything, *it is possible to be a Republican and think Fox News is effed.* One just needs to know when to say when to the Koolaid is all.


Absolutely. Smart people know the difference between news and propaganda.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

DJMRDARK said:


> I play guitar and synthesizer, not drums.  Also choosing to be in California in order to make a lot of money does not infer a lack of intellect. But getting in TCL and posting a bunch of anti-intellectual nonsense DOES. But I know the irony of this goes unnoticed by you.


Sounds right. Money talks before standards or backbone.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

jp71624 said:


> You all are probably the ones paying a cable bill that...wait for it...funds the mainstream media, including Fox. Lol Well done!


I'm a cord cutter! Hulu and Netflix baby!!!


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Since we're now politicising everything, it is possible to be a Republican


...no wonder. just no wonder.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

jp71624 said:


> Sounds right. Money talks before standards or backbone.


This makes no logical sense. Its almost as though you are just chaining random words together in hope that it somehow forms a sentence.:screwy:


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

DJMRDARK said:


> I'm a cord cutter! Hulu and Netflix baby!!!


Well, we share something in common.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

jp71624 said:


> You all are probably the ones paying a cable bill that...wait for it...funds the mainstream media, including Fox. Lol Well done!


Ah so Fox News is mainstream media. Got it. :laugh:


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

classicjetta said:


> Ah so Fox News is mainstream media. Got it.


If it's on the first 50 channels of any given cable service, it probably is. They are all more "entertainment" than they are actual journalism (which is a dying art, apparently.)


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

Stop feeding the troll, guys.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

ByronLLN said:


> Stop feeding the troll, guys.


Yes, using up all your mental stamina in one thread is not recommended. Heed his advice, gentleman!


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

jp71624 said:


> You all are probably the ones paying a cable bill that...wait for it...funds the mainstream media, including Fox. Lol Well done!


Claims to be above all of this yet posts "Lol" like my 11 & 12 year old girls. Yeah, we're done here. Improve the entire planet and go read a book. One with more than just pictures. :thumbup:


1985Jetta said:


> ...no wonder. just no wonder.


Don't you have a hoard to do nothing about somewhere? Surely there's a dilapidated POS just dying to rust away in your possession somewhere. :thumbup:


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Kar98 said:


> Moisturize me!!














classicjetta said:


> Probably under a social media gag order.


Does he work for VW?


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Claims to be above all of this yet posts "Lol" like my 11 & 12 year old girls. Yeah, we're done here. Improve the entire planet and go read a book. One with more than just pictures.


Good argument! You should be proud.


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

I forgot, what page has the DC smog befor and after picture with the "The Pope just arrived in his Jetta TDI"


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

jp71624 said:


> That wasn't the budget for "the government". That was the budget for the EPA alone.
> 
> You volunteer your money to be wasted all you want; funny how you folks like to speak for everyone else's hard earned money, though.  Nothing new.


"We folk" would like "our" taxes to go for universal health care and education, and clean energy, instead of being wasted on unnecessary wars that funneled trillions to Haliburton and others. Funny how you anti-environment, anti-government types like to speak for everybody else while destroying things and refusing to bear the consequences of it.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Back on topic. Lets bask in the glory....


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

OOOO-A3 said:


> "We folk" would like "our" taxes to go for universal health care and education, and clean energy, instead of being wasted on unnecessary wars that funneled trillions to Haliburton and others. Funny how you anti-environment, anti-government types like to speak for everybody else while destroying things and refusing to bear the consequences of it.


#1: the majority of "you all" pay no taxes.

#2: being anti-ignorance and anti-wasteful spending doesn't mean you hate the environment and the government. It means you have some **** sense and don't swallow everything CNN or the President's press secretary tells you hook, line, and sinker.

Funny how I "speak for everyone", yet your persuasion's insistence on taking more money from all others to fund your flailing policies is not doing so. I hope your imaginary world is doing well over there...


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

DJMRDARK said:


> Back on topic. Lets bask in the glory....


So many jokes to be made of that concept car claim...


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

People with very little experience with the government always seem to have this wildly distorted concept of how much it actually costs to run a federal agency. In reality, that's a very modest budget for an agency EPA's size, and they're chronically understaffed given the gigantic scope and breadth of their oversight responsibilities - several dozen laws and EOs, including CAA, CWA, SDWA, CERCLA/RCRA/Superfund, NEPA, NWPA, the various toxics acts, plus crosscutters - and the number of sectors they're expected to regulate. Plus HQ, ten regional offices, and program offices all over the country. 

At this point, EPA is struggling to fully discharge its mandate - $8b isn't enough for the law to be adequately enforced. And now that I've neatly brought this back on topic....


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

jp71624 said:


> #2: being anti-ignorance and anti-wasteful spending doesn't mean you hate the environment and the government. It means you have some **** sense and don't swallow everything CNN or the President's press secretary tells you hook, line, and sinker.


Never fails. All you have to do is wait long enough.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

jp71624 said:


> Good argument! You should be proud.


"We're done here" is code for you're too dumb to continue to post with, sorry that wasn't clear. :thumbup:

If I wanna hear knee-jerk tea party-type responses from someone not willing to see the other side, I'll call my 62 year old Dad and bring up foreigners or gay people. :wave:


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Turbio! said:


> People with very little experience with the government always seem to have this wildly distorted concept of how much it actually costs to run a federal agency. In reality, that's a very modest budget for an agency EPA's size, and they're chronically understaffed given the gigantic scope and breadth of their oversight responsibilities - several dozen laws and EOs, including CAA, CWA, SDWA, CERCLA/RCRA/Superfund, NEPA, NWPA, the various toxics acts, plus crosscutters - and the number of sectors they're expected to regulate. Plus HQ, ten regional offices, and program offices all over the country.
> 
> At this point, EPA is struggling to fully discharge its mandate - $8b isn't enough for the law to be adequately enforced. And now that I've neatly brought this back on topic....


I work in compliance with Federal and State governments daily. Good try, though.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Turbio! said:


> People with very little experience with the government always seem to have this wildly distorted concept of how much it actually costs to run a federal agency. In reality, that's a very modest budget for an agency EPA's size, and they're chronically understaffed given the gigantic scope and breadth of their oversight responsibilities - several dozen laws and EOs, including CAA, CWA, SDWA, CERCLA/RCRA/Superfund, NEPA, NWPA, the various toxics acts, plus crosscutters - and the number of sectors they're expected to regulate. Plus HQ, ten regional offices, and program offices all over the country.
> 
> At this point, EPA is struggling to fully discharge its mandate - $8b isn't enough for the law to be adequately enforced. And now that I've neatly brought this back on topic....


I love your posts which are always intelligent, well considered, well thought out...at least until someone makes you lose it. :laugh: 

But really, why bother in this case?


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

jp71624 said:


> I work in compliance with Federal and State governments daily. Good try, though.


I've worked in many alphabet soup government agencies. That did not qualify me to be a budgetary expert.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> "We're done here" is code for you're too dumb to continue to post with, sorry that wasn't clear.
> 
> If I wanna hear knee-jerk tea party-type responses from someone not willing to see the other side, I'll call my 62 year old Dad and bring up foreigners or gay people. :wave:


Poor fellow. Tolerant of all perspectives, except when they disagree with your opinions. That's the liberal way!


----------



## KawahBunga (Oct 14, 2010)

You guys are better than to let a troll steer the thread. 

inb4tl


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

DJMRDARK said:


> I've worked in many alphabet soup government agencies. That did not qualify me to be a budgetary expert.


I don't work in government; I deal with their waste and inefficiency.

I thought you "peaced out"?


----------



## ATL_Av8r (Oct 17, 2002)

Well, this thread had a good run. Thanks to the *******s who brought political crap and got it blackholed. Splendid work, chaps. :facepalm:


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

jp71624 said:


> I work in compliance with Federal and State governments daily. Good try, though.


You're simply not expressing views that anybody familiar with the situation would, and your vagueness isn't convincing either, so I'm very skeptical that you have relevant experience. 



DJMRDARK said:


> I love your posts which are always intelligent, well considered, well thought out...at least until someone makes you lose it. :laugh:
> 
> But really, why bother in this case?


Stuck in an airport, so why not?


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Called my dealership to check, and our TDI is clean-no recall. One of the lucky ones I guess. I guess that was another ecu update notice we got before?


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

jp71624 said:


> Poor fellow. Tolerant of all perspectives, except when they disagree with your opinions. That's the liberal way!


Nope. There is nothing about being liberal which requires me to be tolerant of lies, or 'perspectives' which are destructive and demonstrably false.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

jp71624 said:


> I don't work in government; I deal with their waste and inefficiency.
> 
> I thought you "peaced out"?


I peaced out of the other thread.

I'm steering this ship back towards land, despite your best efforts.


----------



## BLK9GEN (Sep 27, 2001)

DJMRDARK said:


> That's the problem today. Too many know-nothings with inflated egos making themselves out to being "experts".
> 
> Crawl back to your chair and watch the "news".eace:



This. :thumbup:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Turbio! said:


> Stuck in an airport, so why not?


A-HA! Flying, are we? You gross polluter, you. Why don't you up the ante and just charter one next time, eh? :laugh:


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Turbio! said:


> You're simply not expressing views that anybody familiar with the situation would, so I'm very skeptical that you have relevant experience. Sorry.


That's unfortunate that your exposure to actual knowledge is that brief. Don't be sorry.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

jp71624 said:


> Poor fellow. Tolerant of all perspectives, except when they disagree with your opinions. That's the liberal way!


Intolerant of willful ignorance is more like it, but continue, this is fun. :wave:


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Air and water do mix said:


> A-HA! Flying, are we? You gross polluter, you. Why don't you up the ante and just charter one next time, eh? :laugh:


Still cleaner than renting a TDI and driving to his destination.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

jp71624 said:


> #1: the majority of "you all" pay no taxes.


That is a lie.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

OOOO-A3 said:


> Nope. There is nothing about being liberal which requires me to be tolerant of lies, or 'perspectives' which are destructive and demonstrably false.


Your true colors are evident. Point made. Other's perspective = a lie.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

jp71624 said:


> That's unfortunate that your exposure to actual knowledge is that brief. Don't be sorry.


And this is where those who know what I do for a living and are also reading this thread will laugh.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

OOOO-A3 said:


> That is a lie.


Whatever makes you sleep better at night.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Wired runs down the choices for VW in order to "make it right" with the EPA. 

But to also make it right with owners would cost VW $6-8K per car.

http://www.wired.com/2015/09/vw-owners-arent-going-like-fixes-diesels/

Good read. :thumbup:


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Turbio! said:


> And this is where those who know what I do for a living and are also reading this thread will laugh.


I'll pretend and laugh too.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

DJMRDARK said:


> Wired runs down the choices for VW in order to "make it right" with the EPA.
> 
> But to also make it right with owners would cost VW $6-8K per car.
> 
> ...


Oh, ouch. And that's assuming there's even the space in the chassis to do it.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

jp71624 said:


> I'll pretend and laugh too.


Keep digging.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

jp71624 said:


> Whatever makes you sleep better at night.


Do not keep replying to this boy, my friends. He is a silly boy and he smells like diapers.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Turbio! said:


> Oh, ouch. And that's assuming there's even the space in the chassis to do it.


My initial thought was that adding urea tanks would satisfy everyone, but at just *500K cars* you're looking at $3B at least! They sat aside $7B. On the high end they'd spend $4B!

There are 11 million cars affected.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

A urea retrofit is just insanely unlikely. There's no way Volkswagen can do that, logistically, and from a cost-effectiveness standpoint, it makes no sense. 

They have a tune that can pass smog. They just need to make sure that tune is fleshed out enough that drivers will tolerate it day-to-day and get to flashing.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Do not keep replying to this boy, my friends. He is a silly boy and he smells like diapers.


Apparently my exhaust fumes should cover up any odor...


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

2ohgti said:


> Called my dealership to check, and our TDI is clean-no recall. One of the lucky ones I guess. I guess that was another ecu update notice we got before?


Iirc there is no actual recall yet because they do not have a fix yet. 
You car falls in the range of vehicles expected to be recalled/bought back/whatever.
You are not out of the woods yet. This party is just getting started.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

ByronLLN said:


> A urea retrofit is just insanely unlikely. There's no way Volkswagen can do that, logistically, and from a cost-effectiveness standpoint, it makes no sense.
> 
> They have a tune that can pass smog. They just need to make sure that tune is fleshed out enough that drivers will tolerate it day-to-day and get to flashing.


My feeling is that it probably has durability effects on the rest of the exhaust system, if we're talking about the urea cars. The Jetta, which uses no urea....I don't think there's a fix there.


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

ByronLLN said:


> A urea retrofit is just insanely unlikely. There's no way Volkswagen can do that, logistically, and from a cost-effectiveness standpoint, it makes no sense.
> 
> They have a tune that can pass smog. They just need to make sure that tune is fleshed out enough that drivers will tolerate it day-to-day and get to flashing.


If this could have been fixed just by recoding, they would have done that last year.


----------



## gonzo08452 (Apr 17, 2006)

improvius said:


> If this could have been fixed just by recoding, they would have done that last year.


Agreed. Instead, this just reeks of incompetence and complacency.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

ByronLLN said:


> A urea retrofit is just insanely unlikely. There's no way Volkswagen can do that, logistically, and from a cost-effectiveness standpoint, it makes no sense.
> 
> They have a tune that can pass smog. They just need to make sure that tune is fleshed out enough that drivers will tolerate it day-to-day and get to flashing.


The problem with tuning the cars as a fix is that it then opens them up to class action suits worldwide because the cars will not get that stellar mileage while also losing performance. How expensive will THAT be? No wonder the CEO resigned.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

NeverEnoughCars said:


> Iirc there is no actual recall yet because they do not have a fix yet.
> You car falls in the range of vehicles expected to be recalled/bought back/whatever.
> You are not out of the woods yet. This party is just getting started.


How many of the 11 million cars can VW buy back, or recall/fix before it breaks them?


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

wouldn't this be fixed with an ECU remap that removes the program responsible for this?


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Turbio! said:


> And this is where those who know what I do for a living and are also reading this thread will laugh.


:laugh:



DJMRDARK said:


> http://www.wired.com/2015/09/vw-owners-arent-going-like-fixes-diesels/
> 
> Good read. :thumbup:


Yes, but there is a fallacy in it. That emissions mode will result in lower-than-advertised mileage. My gut feeling is that VW (smartly, for once!) reported mileage and a few other numbers exactly as generated on the EPA test cycle... this means running under the emissions map. So what owners won't get is the bonus mileage they have been getting with the spoof cycle. Same goes for butt dyno versus real dyno - the numbers will be fine, but the real world butt dyno performance will be down.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> wouldn't this be fixed with an ECU remap that removes the program responsible for this?


Nope - the program responsible just spoofs the test. It doesn't fix the actual emissions. If you remove the program, it just fails the test.


----------



## Uber Wagon (Dec 9, 2003)

NeverEnoughCars said:


> Iirc there is no actual recall yet because they do not have a fix yet.
> You car falls in the range of vehicles expected to be recalled/bought back/whatever.
> You are not out of the woods yet. This party is just getting started.


THIS. This is no longer a scandal, but a catastrophe.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Turbio! said:


> My feeling is that it probably has durability effects on the rest of the exhaust system, if we're talking about the urea cars. The Jetta, which uses no urea....I don't think there's a fix there.


Honda had a similar issue with their catalytic converters not lasting the required number of years. I know because I had a 97 Honda and got the postcard. It was basically just something telling me the warranty was extended to 120,000 miles (or maybe 150k if you lived in CA) for the emissions equipment. If the issue with the non-urea cars pertains to durability, then it's possible VW will just have to issue the new ECU that passes emissions and burns up the emissions controls more rapidly, then extend to warranty to X number of years/miles and replace a bunch of emissions equipment every year as it fails on owners' cars more frequently with the new tune. That's basically what Honda had to do.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

GoHomeBroke said:


> wouldn't this be fixed with an ECU remap that removes the program responsible for this?


Jesus H! Does anyone read other posts before posting or are we all such narcissists that we honestly think we're the first one with a mundane and all too common thought? Christ! :facepalm:


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

improvius said:


> If this could have been fixed just by recoding, they would have done that last year.





gonzo08452 said:


> Agreed. Instead, this just reeks of incompetence and complacency.




























:laugh::laugh:


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

AZGolf said:


> Honda had a similar issue with their catalytic converters not lasting the required number of years. I know because I had a 97 Honda and got the postcard. It was basically just something telling me the warranty was extended to 120,000 miles (or maybe 150k if you lived in CA) for the emissions equipment. If the issue with the non-urea cars pertains to durability, then it's possible VW will just have to issue the new ECU that passes emissions and burns up the emissions controls more rapidly, then extend to warranty to X number of years/miles and replace a bunch of emissions equipment every year as it fails on owners' cars more frequently with the new tune. That's basically what Honda had to do.


Ding. I think we have a winner.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

improvius said:


> If this could have been fixed just by recoding, they would have done that last year.


Maybe, but I'm not convinced. A tune that works on a dyno may not necessarily make for the best driving experience, for one thing. And secondly, if the dyno tune severely impacts the longevity of the exhaust in all the cars Volkswagen sold up to that point, it would have caused a warranty nightmare, and a lot of people within the company would have had to answer tough questions about why all of this was necessary, which could have had repercussions all up and down the corporate structure, maybe even to the point that some disgruntled mid-level guy would leak the story. 

And even if that hadn't happened, they were sticking with the story that the discrepancy was down to environmental factors, and a sudden, significant shift in emissions output would have exposed that as bull****.



Turbio! said:


> Ding. I think we have a winner.


Yeah, that. Basically.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> Honda had a similar issue with their catalytic converters not lasting the required number of years. I know because I had a 97 Honda and got the postcard. It was basically just something telling me the warranty was extended to 120,000 miles (or maybe 150k if you lived in CA) for the emissions equipment. If the issue with the non-urea cars pertains to durability, then it's possible VW will just have to issue the new ECU that passes emissions and burns up the emissions controls more rapidly, then extend to warranty to X number of years/miles and replace a bunch of emissions equipment every year as it fails on owners' cars more frequently with the new tune. That's basically what Honda had to do.


That would suck hard for owners to deal with. Repeated visits to repair/replace emission components.

I actually considered the TDI Sportswagon this year, but got a Subaru. Dodged that bullet! :laugh:


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

2ohgti said:


> Called my dealership to check, and our TDI is clean-no recall. One of the lucky ones I guess. I guess that was another ecu update notice we got before?


This recall has not actually been processed yet... I don't think that they'd be able to get documentation ready and a plan ready for a recall in 72 business hours....

The other ECU recall was unrelated (at least, so far as we know).


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> Honda had a similar issue with their catalytic converters not lasting the required number of years. I know because I had a 97 Honda and got the postcard. It was basically just something telling me the warranty was extended to 120,000 miles (or maybe 150k if you lived in CA) for the emissions equipment. If the issue with the non-urea cars pertains to durability, then it's possible VW will just have to issue the new ECU that passes emissions and burns up the emissions controls more rapidly, then extend to warranty to X number of years/miles and replace a bunch of emissions equipment every year as it fails on owners' cars more frequently with the new tune. That's basically what Honda had to do.


Seems plausible, but doesn't take into count the performance, drivability, and mileage penalties of an ECU remap. I take it that the faulty catalytic converter had no effect on actual vehicle performance, right?


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

DJMRDARK said:


> That would suck hard for owners to deal with. Repeated visits to repair/replace emission components.
> 
> I actually considered the TDI Sportswagon this year, but got a Subaru. Dodged that bullet! :laugh:


And then, they still sue VW anyway. 

I think Subaru execs are high-fiving themselves right now - hey, buyers of odd wagons, have we got a rebound car for you!


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

Le jeu son fait.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

Mazda 3s said:


> I take it that the faulty catalytic converter had no effect on actual vehicle performance, right?


Would depend on what sort of faulty, I suppose.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

atomicalex said:


> :laugh:
> 
> Yes, but there is a fallacy in it. That emissions mode will result in lower-than-advertised mileage. My gut feeling is that VW (smartly, for once!) reported mileage and a few other numbers exactly as generated on the EPA test cycle... this means running under the emissions map. So what owners won't get is the bonus mileage they have been getting with the spoof cycle. Same goes for butt dyno versus real dyno - the numbers will be fine, but the real world butt dyno performance will be down.


x2


this is the most logical thing i've seen posted so far on this issue.


----------



## jebglx (Jul 13, 2000)

ok...ok

nice to see this thread self-righting

please keep it civil

thank you


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Turbio! said:


> And then, they still sue VW anyway.
> 
> I think Subaru execs are high-fiving themselves right now - hey, buyers of odd wagons, have we got a rebound car for you!


I expect Mazda, Subaru, Hyundai/Kia, and Honda to all gain from VW's mess. They all compete directly in some way and are typically the brands cross-shopped.

Plus other diesel offerings such as the Cruze will gain disenchanted TDI owners who still crave diesel. EVs/Hybrids will boost.


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

jebglx said:


> ok...ok
> 
> nice to see this thread self-righting
> 
> ...


:beer:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Mazda 3s said:


> Seems plausible, but doesn't take into count the performance, drivability, and mileage penalties of an ECU remap. I take it that the faulty catalytic converter had no effect on actual vehicle performance, right?


Yeah we'll see. In Honda's case, they honestly didn't know they were putting on catalysts that didn't last as long. I believe it was blamed on how much higher the sulfur was in US gasoline than in Europe and Japan in the 90's; an issue that has been getting corrected over time and which the US will (finally) have pretty well sorted out January 1, 2017 when the sulfur content of gasoline will be <10ppm. Also in the case with Honda, the cars did pass emissions, at least up until their catalysts failed. For VW, their cars have been failing all along, just not reporting that they were failing as is supposed to happen with an OBD-II car.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

GoHomeBroke said:


> this is the most logical thing i've seen posted so far on this issue.


Yep. We've been talking about this bot on- and off-vortex since it was announced. The car knows dyno mode vs. real-world. It would be overly complicated to program the car to detect the difference between a FE dyno and an emissions dyno (you'd have to really get down to the nitty-gritty of load patterns and such to accomplish that) so it's entirely logical to assume that the engine operates on the same map for both tests. 

What that translates to in terms of real-world driving experience, however, is anybody's guess at this point.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

jebglx said:


> ok...ok
> 
> nice to see this thread self-righting
> 
> ...


I said I'd steer us back to land! :laugh:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

ByronLLN said:


> Yep. We've been talking about this bot on- and off-vortex since it was announced. The car knows dyno mode vs. real-world. It would be overly complicated to program the car to detect the difference between a FE dyno and an emissions dyno (you'd have to really get down to the nitty-gritty of load patterns and such to accomplish that) so it's entirely logical to assume that the engine operates on the same map for both tests.
> 
> What that translates to in terms of real-world driving experience, however, is anybody's guess at this point.



so since it knows both modes, would it be possible to issue an ECU remap that puts it into the test mode full time? if the only difference would be the butt dyno, as atomicalex suggested, and the real world numbers are close to/right at the numbers VW said they'd be (most of the ones i've seen before this were higher than advertised), it would backup her logic that VW posted those numbers based off of the test mode anyways.

IIRC, it was mentioned that the real world vs dyno (test) mode was differentiated by the ECU based on steering column inputs. in test mode, it doesn't move anywhere near like it does in real world applications. would the difference in a FE dyno be that different from an emissions dyno?


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> so since it knows both modes, would it be possible to issue an ECU remap that puts it into the test mode full time? if the only difference would be the butt dyno, as atomicalex suggested, and the real world numbers are close to/right at the numbers VW said they'd be (most of the ones i've seen before this were higher than advertised), it would backup her logic that VW posted those numbers based off of the test mode anyways.


I read somewhere that this affects drive-ability negatively as well...


----------



## intercedeGLI (Sep 8, 2002)

DJMRDARK said:


> Plus other diesel offerings such as the Cruze will gain disenchanted TDI owners who still crave diesel. EVs/Hybrids will boost.


My very first thought when I read all of this was "how does the Fiat sourced diesel in the Cruze do what Volkswagen can't". I imagine others with testing equipment are about to find out. For 2014 the cars had similar horsepower, torque and economy.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

GoHomeBroke said:


> so since it knows both modes, would it be possible to issue an ECU remap that puts it into the test mode full time? if the only difference would be the butt dyno, as atomicalex suggested, and the real world numbers are close to/right at the numbers VW said they'd be (most of the ones i've seen before this were higher than advertised), it would backup her logic that VW posted those numbers based off of the test mode anyways.
> 
> IIRC, it was mentioned that the real world vs dyno (test) mode was differentiated by the ECU based on steering column inputs. in test mode, it doesn't move anywhere near like it does in real world applications. would the difference in a FE dyno be that different from an emissions dyno?


No reason to believe it's not possible. Whether customers will like the results is a whole different story.


----------



## ATL_Av8r (Oct 17, 2002)

jebglx said:


> ok...ok
> 
> nice to see this thread self-righting
> 
> ...


we're just as surprised as you, Bill


----------



## Howboutcha C'mon (Oct 11, 2009)

VW should change the file name on their dyno-mode mapping. Nobody will expect them to do it twice!


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

jp71624 said:


> It means you have some ****** sense and don't swallow everything CNN or the President's press secretary tells you hook, line, and sinker..


I suspect jp71624 makes this typo a lot.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

Turbio! said:


> You're misunderstanding the test results. The X5 behaved exactly as you're describing - it exceeded only when at very high loads, and was within limits the rest of the time. That's acceptable, and expected. Both VWs exceeded the Bin 5 limit of 0.5g/mile at all times - the Jetta without urea exceeded it by 15-35x depending on load. The Passat exceeded it by 5-20x depending on load on the predefined test routes; interestingly, its emissions fell to the legal limit on one stretch of I-5 that was extremely flat, and then only when the cruise control was on. With that limited exception, exceedances occurred unequivocally at all loads - not just at the highest load and compliant the rest of the time.


So I bought mine for purely self serving reasons: fuel economy, torque, and the fender audio. Not necessarily in that order. But today driving around, I put the DSG in S, and floored it to merge with traffic, as I rode that wave of torque, I felt a little bit bad about it.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

DJMRDARK said:


> I said I'd steer us back to land! :laugh:


Did I miss the fun stuff?


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

ByronLLN said:


> No reason to believe it's not possible. Whether customers will like the results is a whole different story.


that's the next big question.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Did I miss the fun stuff?


The gif sums it up well. :laugh:


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

DJMRDARK said:


> The gif sums it up well. :laugh:


So is that Winterkorn driving the boat? :laugh:


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Mazda 3s said:


> So is that Winterkorn driving the boat? :laugh:


Nah, just some buggy code messing with the steering.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Mazda 3s said:


> So is that Winterkorn driving the boat? :laugh:


It might be that it was Peïch, but Winterkorn took over and unbeknownst to him Peïch drilled holes in the boat!


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Mazda 3s said:


> So is that Winterkorn driving the boat? :laugh:


No man, that's me steering us back to shore. :laugh:

Got this thread back, but we all have some PTSD from the trolling.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Nah, just some buggy code messing with the steering.


Steer-by-wire. Bring it on! What could possibly go wrong? :laugh:


----------



## BeBop! (Jun 18, 2009)

DJMRDARK said:


> No man, that's me steering us back to shore. :laugh:
> 
> Got this thread back, but we all have some PTSD from the trolling.


These threads always bring out the best from both sides.


----------



## genjy (Aug 7, 2005)

DJMRDARK said:


> I actually considered the TDI Sportswagon this year, but got a Subaru. Dodged that bullet! :laugh:


I've got a 2016 Subaru being built. 

No dubby dub for me.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Chilcoot said:


> I have to leave in a few. Mom says dinner is about ready upstairs!


----------



## surefooted (May 21, 2001)

jebglx said:


> ok...ok
> 
> nice to see this thread self-righting
> 
> ...


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

DJMRDARK said:


> No man, that's me steering us back to shore.
> 
> Got this thread back, but we all have some PTSD from the trolling.


Glad you've found land; now, if you could just find some sense!


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

jebglx said:


> ok...ok
> 
> nice to see this thread self-righting
> 
> ...


Bill, you know what you need to do.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Bill, you know what you need to do.


No one likes opposing POV's here. It's kind of cute, though. In a way.


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

DJMRDARK said:


> That would suck hard for owners to deal with. Repeated visits to repair/replace emission components.
> 
> I actually considered the TDI Sportswagon this year, but got a Subaru. Dodged that bullet! :laugh:


In 'murica lawsuit logic, you just missed out on winning the lottery!



jebglx said:


> ok...ok
> 
> nice to see this thread self-righting
> 
> ...


I'm as surprised as anyone how the ship righted after that page or two.



intercedeGLI said:


> My very first thought when I read all of this was "how does the Fiat sourced diesel in the Cruze do what Volkswagen can't". I imagine others with testing equipment are about to find out. For 2014 the cars had similar horsepower, torque and economy.


Cruze Diesel had DEF (AdBlue), for one.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

*BREAKING NEWS: The Root Cause of VW's Cheating Exposed*

One manager is responsible for the 11 million car fraud this risks taking down one of the largest companies in all of Europe. It seems that the *Supervising Engineer of Diesel Technology and Research*, and part time coach of the Patriots, Bill Belichick is responsible for coming up with and enacting the fraud now eroding VW. Also implicated is Bill's assistant and man servant, Tom Brady whom other VW employee describe as complicit in the plan and the muscle used to keep other engineers from whistle blowing. In an unrelated story Bill Belichick has also been implicated in numerous cheating scandals in his other job with the NFL. Again, Bill's assistant and man servant, Tom Brady is claimed to have been part of those conspiracies.

More as this story develops.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

jp71624 said:


> Glad you've found land; now, if you could just find some sense!





jp71624 said:


> No one likes opposing POV's here. It's kind of cute, though. In a way.


Is _that_ what that was? :bs:


----------



## adrew (Aug 15, 2003)

So, ah, the test equipment was sitting inches away from a gas-powered generator (looks like they used a Honda, but probably still pretty stinky). Hopefully they employed sufficient countermeasures but I would like to see more information about the setup. http://www.vox.com/2015/9/23/9383663/vw-emissions-scandal-photo


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

adrew said:


> So, ah, the test equipment was sitting inches away from a gas-powered generator (looks like they used a Honda, but probably still pretty stinky). Hopefully they employed sufficient countermeasures but I would like to see more information about the setup. http://www.vox.com/2015/9/23/9383663/vw-emissions-scandal-photo


The generator has a 6ft. homemade exhaust and the diesel "sniffer" appears to be sealed before it hits the tester some 5-6ft. away. How in the heck is the generator you going to play any nefarious part in this by looking just at that picture? :screwy:

I'm now wondering if this news has caused a large part of the population to stop taking their meds.. :facepalm:


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Claims to be above all of this yet posts "Lol" like my 11 & 12 year old girls. Yeah, we're done here. Improve the entire planet and go read a book. One with more than just pictures.





Accidental L8 apex said:


> Is _that_ what that was? :bs:


I agree. Hardly a reasonable response to the original "poor EPA" comment. I mean, glad we've covered that you've procreated and all, I guess...Congrats?


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

adrew said:


> So, ah, the test equipment was sitting inches away from a gas-powered generator (looks like they used a Honda, but probably still pretty stinky). Hopefully they employed sufficient countermeasures but I would like to see more information about the setup. http://www.vox.com/2015/9/23/9383663/vw-emissions-scandal-photo


I haven't seen anymore specifics to your question, but this was interesting:

http://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-...vanced-cars/how-professors-caught-vw-cheating

This process of how it was identified makes me wonder how few vehicles have been tested in this manner to begin with...sounds like not many.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)




----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Accidental L8 apex said:


>


Good call. I don't think you had much to offer on the original comment, clearly.


----------



## Sledge (May 15, 2005)

Turbio! said:


> Oh, ouch. And that's assuming there's even the space in the chassis to do it.


As I said earlier, put the urea tank in the trunk as a reminder to owners that if you can't do the work done well up front, you'll do a crappy job fixing it afterwards and everyone should know it.


----------



## adrew (Aug 15, 2003)

I'm not a member of the tinfoil hat brigade (by any means) but just saw some potential for cross contamination if there were any leaks that weren't immediately discovered. To me it seems like an inverter would have been a more obvious choice for power.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

adrew said:


> So, ah, the test equipment was sitting inches away from a gas-powered generator (looks like they used a Honda, but probably still pretty stinky). Hopefully they employed sufficient countermeasures but I would like to see more information about the setup. http://www.vox.com/2015/9/23/9383663/vw-emissions-scandal-photo


Well, here's the entire CAFEE report:

http://www.theicct.org/sites/defaul...WVU_LDDV_in-use_ICCT_Report_Final_may2014.pdf

Originally posted here:

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme...rchers-tracked-down-vws-diesel-software-hacks


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Sledge said:


> As I said earlier, put the urea tank in the trunk as a reminder to owners that if you can't do the work done well up front, you'll do a crappy job fixing it afterwards and everyone should know it.


I like how you think.


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

For anyone interested, I think I found the report that was presented by WVU in 2014 (which was probably posted, but lost in the sauce of this thread):

Started reading this article, because the IEEE would be a better non-bias place than the typical media outlets:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-...vanced-cars/how-professors-caught-vw-cheating

Research report:
http://www.theicct.org/use-emissions-testing-light-duty-diesel-vehicles-us


----------



## Sledge (May 15, 2005)

adrew said:


> I'm not a member of the tinfoil hat brigade (by any means) but just saw some potential for cross contamination if there were any leaks that weren't immediately discovered. To me it seems like an inverter would have been a more obvious choice for power.


I don't know how much power the equipment takes but it must be enough that the extra load on the engine would skew the results.

Maybe a small lithium ion battery pack if the tests aren't too long timewise?


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

jp71624 said:


> They aren't touching my '15 TDI 6MT Sportwagen. She's just starting to break in nicely.





jp71624 said:


> My state doesn't test emissions for diesels, and therefore wouldn't require emission recall proof.
> 
> I hate it for what could come for future TDI buyers, in the near term anyway.





jp71624 said:


> Good call. I don't think you had much to offer on the original comment, clearly.


Those two "original" comments? Hell, Richard Pryor couldn't follow those two gems. :thumbup:


----------



## Seabird (Feb 8, 2002)

jp71624 said:


> Good call. I don't think you had much to offer on the original comment, clearly.


Dude, seriously. Please stop. I am in no way a mincing liberal swish. If you don't believe me, then go here and introduce yourself: npboards.com You'll get a friendly reception and they'll vouch for my bona fides. I just don't do the political thing anymore. Tired of it, really.

And this thread isn't the place for it either. We're trying to have a thoughtful apolitical conversation around the impact of this event. There's a whole politics thread where you can go do this in Off Topic.

I'm asking nicely. Not calling you names or getting snarky. You're behavior is wrong.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Those two "original" comments? Hell, Richard Pryor couldn't follow those two gems.


You can't even determine which comment brought out the peanut gallery. Just sit this one out...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Sledge said:


> I don't know how much power the equipment takes but it must be enough that the extra load on the engine would skew the results.
> 
> Maybe a small lithium ion battery pack if the tests aren't too long timewise?


Less than 850 pounds I'm sure, and passenger cars are generally certified for an 850 pound load.


----------



## Sledge (May 15, 2005)

AZGolf said:


> Less than 850 pounds I'm sure, and passenger cars are generally certified for an 850 pound load.


No I mean load on the engine - how many kW does it need to run?


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

Seabird said:


> Dude, seriously. Please stop. I am in no way a mincing liberal swish. If you don't believe me, then go here and introduce yourself: npboards.com You'll get a friendly reception and they'll vouch for my bona fides. I just don't do the political thing anymore. Tired of it, really.
> 
> And this thread isn't the place for it either. We're trying to have a thoughtful apolitical conversation around the impact of this event. There's a whole politics thread where you can go do this in Off Topic.
> 
> I'm asking nicely. Not calling you names or getting snarky. You're behavior is wrong.


About as nice as it gets. I apologize for getting wound up in it. As my stepfather likes to say while shaking his head and chuckling, "other people's children?" It's never not funny. :thumbup:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Sledge said:


> No I mean load on the engine - how many kW does it need to run?


In the picture it appears they have an electrical generator in the back to run the equipment. Even if not, it looks like some air pumps and sensors. I doubt the load is any where near as heavy as an A/C system, and cars have to be certified with A/C use nowadays too.

EDIT: OK, it says in the accompanying article that's exactly why they did it. They have their own generator so as to present no additional electrical load on the car. Don't ask me how they close the hatch though, although I guess if you can at least get it mostly closed then the aero is mostly back to stock.


----------



## Tuono5740 (Nov 23, 2011)

If they put a urea tank in my TDI I'd be fine with that... it's pretty much half of the setup I need to run Water-meth :laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

jp71624 said:


> You can't even determine which comment brought out the peanut gallery. Just sit this one out...


Taken to pm as this is beyond ridiculous. :facepalm:


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

Instead of assuming, why don't you guys take the time to read the research report? 

Page 10 and 11 of the body talk about weight and payload. They took into account that the equipment was on board. Putting a load on the engine with the added equipment should not skew results. It is assumed that the emissions components operate under all "loaded" conditions.

I'm more convinced looking through the report now. But, it'll be interesting to see what other researchers find in their tests, as I imagine a lot of money is being poured into validating their numbers.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Per the report:



> The power requirements for the OBS-
> TRPM however, required the addition of a second 2kW Honda generator to support the power
> demand for the entire sampling setup during testing of Vehicle C. Using a vehicle independent
> power generator had the advantage of not having to draw any current from the test vehicles
> ...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

vbora01 said:


> I'm more convinced looking through the report now. But, it'll be interesting to see what other researchers find in their tests, as I imagine a lot of money is being poured into validating their numbers.


There's a few instances where members of the general public can win money by reporting illegal acts. In 2014, a $30 million award was given to a whistleblower and there have been many others to make millions. Think of how much quicker this would have been reported if you could win 10-30% of the EPA fine. If the EPA fine is $1.5 billion, that's a $150-450 MILLION award. Suddenly companies would be testing competitor products because they might actually make a profit by winning a percentage of a federal fine.

The more I've read about the whistleblower reward program, and more I wish it applied to all white collar crimes. I think we'd see a lot more people willing to come forward and report wrongdoing if they could cash in a huge payday as a result.


----------



## adrew (Aug 15, 2003)

...just having a discussion here since the gas generators weren't mentioned earlier. I agree there is probably nothing nefarious going on and will check out the PDFs when I have more time, but for now, my spidey sense kind of goes off when I see something like this on Car "C". 

You've got the intake/exhaust hoses all intertwined with each other and the tips of the Hondas' dual exhausts are literally inches away from the fittings on the exhaust stack.


----------



## Sledge (May 15, 2005)

AZGolf said:


> In the picture it appears they have an electrical generator in the back to run the equipment. Even if not, it looks like some air pumps and sensors. I doubt the load is any where near as heavy as an A/C system, and cars have to be certified with A/C use nowadays too.
> 
> EDIT: OK, it says in the accompanying article that's exactly why they did it. They have their own generator so as to present no additional electrical load on the car. Don't ask me how they close the hatch though, although I guess if you can at least get it mostly closed then the aero is mostly back to stock.


That's what I thought. They used the Honda generator to power the sampling equipment to isolate the engine performance from any extraneous engine loads so as not to have to deal with more variables than they needed to.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

ByronLLN said:


> They have a tune that can pass smog. They just need to make sure that tune is fleshed out enough that drivers will tolerate it day-to-day and get to flashing.


If it were that simple don't you think they would have sold the car that way?


----------



## Sledge (May 15, 2005)

adrew said:


> You've got the intake/exhaust hoses all intertwined with each other and the tips of the Hondas' dual exhausts are literally inches away from the fittings on the exhaust stack.


Exhaust gas does not diffuse through the steel exhaust pipes. Just because they're next to each other means nothing. As for the main exhaust stack with all the sensors, it's pressurized by the engine. The chance that any stray exhaust flow from the Honda generators could make its way back into the VW's extended exhaust pipe is nil.

EDIT: even if the sensor exhaust stack had a bad fitting installation, the gas pressure could not be overcome by the output of a little 2kW generator.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

adrew said:


> You've got the intake/exhaust hoses all intertwined with each other and the tips of the Hondas' dual exhausts are literally inches away from the fittings on the exhaust stack.


Apologies for the comment before. I lumped you in with some of the nutjobs. My bad. :thumbdown:

Now, it looks like those fittings might be an O2 type sensor, which means it's only open to the inside of the stack. That rules out cross-contamination there. As far as intakes and exhausts being intertwined, unless there's a bad hose, it's no different than under the hood of every vehicle. :thumbup:

I see nothing sketchy in either photo, just a results-oriented layout with zero regard for aesthetics. :thumbup:


----------



## adrew (Aug 15, 2003)

Yeah, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, just have a super analytical mind that works in a detailed and very nerdy but decidedly non-engineering/chemistry/etc field.

Don't these new diesels have throttle plates? Coasting downhill with one's foot off the accelerator, I assume the engine would be producing very little airflow. I only ask because the rear end of a wagon/SUV is a funny place to be, airflow wise, with air and dirt getting sucked up form the ground and and onto the back window.

Maybe they didn't imagine the magnitude of the storm this would create, but if I were doing a project like this I would have made every effort to de-jankify the appearance of the equipment. Also has there been any independent verification of the testing with different vehicles?


----------



## bzcat (Nov 26, 2001)

E CODE said:


> This recall has not actually been processed yet... I don't think that they'd be able to get documentation ready and a plan ready for a recall in 72 business hours....
> 
> The other ECU recall was unrelated (at least, so far as we know).


The other recall *was related*.

After ICCT presented the independent road-test results to EPA and CARB, the two regulatory agencies asked VW to explain the discrepancies vs. laboratory testing. VW responded by saying it will recall the cars because the ECU needed to be re-flashed to better monitor NOx emission under certain conditions - basically a bunch of BS as we come to find out. 

That original recall is still ongoing - not all the cars have been re-flashed. But it is kind of pointless because we know it is BS. After the original recall, EPA and CARB conducted more testing and find that it didn't do anything different so they asked VW to do more. VW initially said no. Then last week, EPA threatened to use the "nuclear option" - to de-certify the 2016 TDI models for sale, if VW doesn't offer a real explanation. On Friday, VW finally offered the real explanation - that they cheated.


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

VW already verified their results.


----------



## Red Pocket Rocket (Oct 17, 2002)

i dunno about you guys but im starting to see a lot of feedback about the recalls and vw bad PR obviously about this. 
and then on the other hand i have vw current former owers praising vw for their current/past vehicles that have nothing to do with the recall in a positive light.

interesting how this is going to play out. opcorn:


----------



## joesturbo (Jul 19, 1999)

improvius said:


> VW already verified their results.


Just to let you guys know - being in the trucking industry this will not go well for VW Owners (YES YOU)... I WOULD NOT GET A SOFTWARE PATCH OR UPDATE FROM VW. This SOFTWARE WILL give you LESS MPG and have LESS HP. That is what they will have to do at the dealers - JUST WALK AWAY and don't take your car in. 

Some may not want to bring politics into this conversation however it is not politics but your freedom here. The EPA is in need to be shut down. The director stated people would be dying because of this... WHAT? We have unchecked government in play here... reality thrown out the window.


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

Seabird said:


> Dude, seriously. Please stop. I am in no way a mincing liberal swish. If you don't believe me, then go here and introduce yourself: npboards.com You'll get a friendly reception and they'll vouch for my bona fides.


I'll thank you to keep your bona zippered up, and I don't even wanna think about your fides. This is a family board!


----------



## Red Pocket Rocket (Oct 17, 2002)

Kar98 said:


> I'll thank you to keep your bona zippered up, and I don't even wanna think about your fides. This is a family board!


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

i cant /white girl


----------



## VarianceVQ (Jun 26, 2005)

joesturbo said:


> Some may not want to bring politics into this conversation however it is not politics but your freedom here. The EPA is in need to be shut down. The director stated people would be dying because of this... WHAT? We have unchecked government in play here... *reality thrown out the window*.


You put it better than I could. (Hint: That's not me agreeing with you.)


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

joesturbo said:


> Some may not want to bring politics into this conversation however it is not politics but your freedom here. The EPA is in need to be shut down.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

joesturbo said:


> Some may not want to bring politics into this conversation however it is not politics but your freedom here. The EPA is in need to be shut down.


I like China I guess, but some people really LOVE it.












joesturbo said:


> The director stated people would be dying because of this... WHAT?


A crude, back of the envelope calculation worthy of discussion at least is that VW's fraud put an extra 68,000 to 274,000 additional tons of NOx emissions into the atmosphere each year.

At the high end, that's said to be about 25 times was a coal plant WITHOUT EMISSION CONTROLS emits in a year.










Using EPA figures, that much NOx is said to very roughly account for between 58 and 520 premature global deaths annually.










Not to mention the impact it has on the earth's ability to sustain life going forward.

Nevertheless, sorry to harsh your EPA rage.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

joesturbo said:


> Just to let you guys know - being in the trucking industry this will not go well for VW Owners (YES YOU)... I WOULD NOT GET A SOFTWARE PATCH OR UPDATE FROM VW. This SOFTWARE WILL give you LESS MPG and have LESS HP. That is what they will have to do at the dealers - JUST WALK AWAY and don't take your car in.


It may do more than just cut power and economy.
It may burn up expensive emission parts.
Iirc, US emissions requires the emissions to work new and at 100k miles.

And maybe that is a fix..
VW tuning for emission test compliance all the time, and they just have to pay to have expensive parts replaced every 10k miles... up to 100 miles.



> Some may not want to bring politics into this conversation however it is not politics but your freedom here. The EPA is in need to be shut down. The director stated people would be dying because of this... WHAT? We have unchecked government in play here... reality thrown out the window.


"Unchecked governmemt"
Translation: Government doing things I don't like.
I just wish we could get the EPA to actually work "unchecked"... as in, without all the money bought politicians fighting healthy changes.


----------



## Sledge (May 15, 2005)

The future:


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Chilcoot said:


> I like China I guess, but some people really LOVE it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Look at the MIT ambient air emissions study that the EPA is using for premature deaths and spend any reasonable period viewing the correlation between those "projected" early deaths and where they are showing up.

The generalization that anywhere in the world these emissions occur will cause a premature death is absolutely incorrect.


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

This whole "waaaah unchecked government, communism!" blathering is beyond absurd. I grew UP in a communist country with unchecked government, and do you wanna know what they cared least about? The health of the population.


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> But let's be honest here, he meant none of it.


Except the part where he denied any personal knowledge of the violations, I'm sure he meant (for us to believe) that, most of all


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

BRealistic said:


> Iirc, US emissions requires the emissions to work new and at 100k miles.


Under Tier 2 standards, the requirement is actually 120,000 miles, but yes, you're largely correct. The affected models were mainly sold under the auspices of Tier2, Bin 5.

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/tier2stds.htm


----------



## genjy (Aug 7, 2005)

Kar98 said:


> This whole "waaaah unchecked government, communism!" blathering is beyond absurd. I grew UP in a communist country with unchecked government, and do you wanna know what they cared least about? The health of the population.


It's not pollution... it's freedom:


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Kar98 said:


> This whole "waaaah unchecked government, communism!" blathering is beyond absurd. I grew UP in a communist country with unchecked government, and do you wanna know what they cared least about? The health of the population.


The fact that you grew up in less developed nation that was communist in no way determines that communism requires disregard of public health. Correlation is not causation, my friend.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

jp71624 said:


> The fact that you grew up in less developed nation that was communist in no way determines that communism requires disregard of public health. Correlation is not causation, my friend.


I think his point is that certain posters are saying that the EPA is communism, but the policies of the EPA are opposite of the environmental policies of _actual_ communist countries.


----------



## Cole Orlling (Mar 18, 2015)

I would agree that the EPA is out of check. Their standards are extreme and based on questiomable "fact." Not saying that I think we should go around spewing whatever we want into the air, but current regulations are a bit much. The EPA is a highly politicized federal agency that often does little more than push agenda, IMO. 

However - rules are rules and VW knew the rules before they started selling these cars. Regardless of anyone's opinion of the rules, they didn't follow them and they are responsible for paying the price.


----------



## joesturbo (Jul 19, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> I think his point is that certain posters are saying that the EPA is communism, but the policies of the EPA are opposite of the environmental policies of _actual_ communist countries.


Do you know how many times the EPA has raised the "standard" since inception? Car and Drive had an article a couple of years ago it has moved the bar something like 16,000 percent. Every American should be pissed off at this. it is constant BS in your face because some unelected tree hugger wants his/her way.

Did you know the 2010 emissions raised the price on heavy trucks by $10,000 for each truck? That additional cost for EVERYTHING you buy. 
Did you know or do you understand there is an inherent disconnect between efficiency vs. emissions? You CAN"T have it both ways.
Europe and the U.S. standards are at odds here.

I am not saying what VW did was right... No one is saying clean air and water is not a good thing - but there is a balance in reality that is missing today. surely those of you who said you disagree can understand that over the top regulations leads to more inefficiency and additional fuel being spent i.e. more emissions over the long run.

How many people here have been to 3rd world countries? To Europe? I have many times over, just like poverty this issue is over played here in the U.S. like we have real pollution issues or homeless issues. Until you can't see your hand in front of your face, or you go by a town of thousands made out of cardboard you don't understand how ridiculous our government and media has become on so many topics.


----------



## dawsino (Oct 4, 2012)

joesturbo said:


> ...How many people here have been to 3rd world countries? To Europe? I have many times over, just like poverty this issue is over played here in the U.S. like we have real pollution issues or homeless issues. Until you can't see your hand in front of your face, or you go by a town of thousands made out of cardboard you don't understand how ridiculous our government and media has become on so many topics.


Good words.


----------



## Cole Orlling (Mar 18, 2015)

Speaking on emissions vs. efficiency - take this VW case for example. Cleaner emissions requires burning more fuel overall. In 08+ trucks, that fuel penalty is pretty extreme - up to 50% less fuel economy due to emissions equipment. In terms of general conservation, that seems a bit ironic.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

AZGolf said:


> I think his point is that certain posters are saying that the EPA is communism, but the policies of the EPA are opposite of the environmental policies of _actual_ communist countries.


Communist countries have traditionally always been poorly developed or underdeveloped. Naturally, strict environmental laws are not even able to exist short of running their country dry and killing their economy. But again, communism isn't predicated on that characteristic.

The EPA is a department; it's only as communist as the actions of its government. The notion that we can't have environmental laws without the EPA is ill-conceived.

Does that mean we should ignore our environment? Absolutely not.

Does that mean any and all regulations to "reduce emissions" and "fight climate change" should be accepted without delay or scrutiny? Absolutely not.

There's a pretty penny made in the "green" economic sector. It's as susceptible to power grabbing as easily as anything else in this country.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Cole Orlling said:


> I would agree that the EPA is out of check. Their standards are extreme and based on questiomable "fact." Not saying that I think we should go around spewing whatever we want into the air, but current regulations are a bit much. The EPA is a highly politicized federal agency that often does little more than push agenda, IMO.
> 
> However - rules are rules and VW knew the rules before they started selling these cars. Regardless of anyone's opinion of the rules, they didn't follow them and they are responsible for paying the price.


I agree. Well put.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Cole Orlling said:


> Speaking on emissions vs. efficiency - take this VW case for example. Cleaner emissions requires burning more fuel overall. In 08+ trucks, that fuel penalty is pretty extreme - up to 50% less fuel economy due to emissions equipment. In terms of general conservation, that seems a bit ironic.


More emissions control = more funding/revenue = more power. Is everything done with devious intentions like this? No. But given the option of two equivalent (let's presume) choices, big government is often going to choose the one they benefit from and/or can more closely control.

Taxes are the easiest example, as if they weren't about control they could easily be infinitely more simplistic. And if the IRS is doing it, you can guarantee the other heavy clout departments/organizations are doing so, too.

This doesn't change the current situation we are discussing, relating to VW's sins. As you mentioned, I'm certainly not saying that either.


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

jp71624 said:


> The fact that you grew up in less developed nation that was communist in no way determines that communism requires disregard of public health. Correlation is not causation, my friend.


I'm not your friend, guy. And it WAS a developed nation. They just didn't give a damn about the environment or public health.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Kar98 said:


> I'm not your friend, guy. And it WAS a developed nation. They just didn't give a damn about the environment or public health.


Aw, sad day.
I'm sure they were wonderfully developed. 

Let me guess...nearly 100 people own almost half the wealth there, and 90% of the adult population doesn't own squat?


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

joesturbo said:


> How many people here have been to 3rd world countries? To Europe? I have many times over, just like poverty this issue is over played here in the U.S. like we have real pollution issues or homeless issues. Until you can't see your hand in front of your face, or you go by a town of thousands made out of cardboard you don't understand how ridiculous our government and media has become on so many topics.


This has nothing to do with the thread so stop acting like an internet tough guy. 

Pollution happens and EPA exists to try and deal with it in a way that benefits society as a whole.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

jp71624 said:


> Communist countries have traditionally always been poorly developed or underdeveloped. Naturally, strict environmental laws are not even able to exist short of running their country dry and killing their economy. But again, communism isn't predicated on that characteristic.
> 
> The EPA is a department; it's only as communist as the actions of its government. The notion that we can't have environmental laws without the EPA is ill-conceived.
> 
> ...


Good post. Sticking to facts or even opinions with no insulting required. :thumbup:



jp71624 said:


> More emissions control = more funding/revenue = more power. Is everything done with devious intentions like this? No. But given the option of two equivalent (let's presume) choices, big government is often going to choose the one they benefit from and/or can more closely control.
> 
> Taxes are the easiest example, as if they weren't about control they could easily be infinitely more simplistic. And if the IRS is doing it, you can guarantee the other heavy clout departments/organizations are doing so, too.
> 
> This doesn't change the current situation we are discussing, relating to VW's sins. As you mentioned, I'm certainly not saying that either.


Aww heck, is this a trend I see here? Another on-topic, seemingly well thought out post I don't really agree with, but should be considered. :thumbup:



jp71624 said:


> Aw, sad day.
> I'm sure they were wonderfully developed.
> 
> Let me guess...nearly 100 people own almost half the wealth there, and 90% of the adult population doesn't own squat?


Aaaand you're back. :facepalm:


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Good post. Sticking to facts or even opinions with no insulting required.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry?


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

syncro87 said:


> DC before and after the Pope's Passat arrived:
> 
> 
> 
> :laugh:


Quoted because I just drove through NYC and the Pope is coming through. I found this to be a hilarious post. But seriously...has VW said they're going to buy back the cars from owners? I was told by my advertising buddy that VW just hired BP's defense team.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

joesturbo said:


> Do you know how many times the EPA has raised the "standard" since inception? Car and Drive had an article a couple of years ago it has moved the bar something like 16,000 percent. Every American should be pissed off at this. it is constant BS in your face because some unelected tree hugger wants his/her way.
> 
> Did you know the 2010 emissions raised the price on heavy trucks by $10,000 for each truck? That additional cost for EVERYTHING you buy.
> Did you know or do you understand there is an inherent disconnect between efficiency vs. emissions? You CAN"T have it both ways.
> ...


Added technology leads to added cost. AND????

*How much does ABS cost relative to the price of two damaged vehicles and associated medicals costs? How much does ABS cost relative to the lost productivity to a company or the economy because the lack of ABS resulted in two dead people who can no longer contribute to the economy? How much money does having and maintaining clean and water cost relative to keeping chronic diseases and cancers in check, thereby saving lives, lowering medical and insurance costs, allowing people to continue to work and add to the economy, which in turn keeps crime down???*

You anti-government types always rant and rave about government while ironically enjoying the benefits of said government. You use cost as a justification for your views but you always see things in the most simplistic ways which is why you are typically wrong on most things. You cannot apply one dimensional thought to a ten dimensional problem.

These government office you love to hate tend to an army of people who specifically sit down and investigate the issues from multitudes of angles and perspective so that they can show by way of formula how and where made is saved, made, or lost per desired action. I wager the GAO is far better qualified make determines than you. The EPA is far more qualified than you.

Please delight us with a well formed breakdown when you answer the bolded portion of my post.

And leave grading your homework to Turbio!


----------



## JakiChan (Dec 13, 2002)

joesturbo said:


> How many people here have been to 3rd world countries? To Europe? I have many times over, just like poverty this issue is over played here in the U.S. like we have real pollution issues or homeless issues. Until you can't see your hand in front of your face, or you go by a town of thousands made out of cardboard you don't understand how ridiculous our government and media has become on so many topics.


Have you been to California? To Los Angeles? Bakersfield?

Here's what happens. CARB makes tougher rules than the EPA. The EPA then adopts them. Now, if you wanna beef with CARB then fine, but don't do so before visiting Bakersfield. 

Here, let me show it to you/.

Meanwhile, yes, in some places of the US these standards are necessary. I would agree, maybe you don't need them in North Carolina, but we do need them here in California.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

joesturbo said:


> Europe and the U.S. standards are at odds here.


Actually current US EPA standards are very close to the Euro 6 standards that went into effect this month. Within the next 10 years or so, California, US Federal, and EU air quality standards will likely be equalized. This is actually a fantastic thing for everybody because it means it is easier to certify cars for sale in multiple regions with a single certification. That lowers the cost of cars because of the economy of scale that you get from having a single design for a huge percentage of world sales.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

JakiChan said:


> Have you been to California? To Los Angeles? Bakersfield?
> 
> Here's what happens. CARB makes tougher rules than the EPA. The EPA then adopts them. Now, if you wanna beef with CARB then fine, but don't do so before visiting Bakersfield.
> 
> ...


Yes. Make the stringent requirements where necessary, not blanket regulations for the entire country, outside of a more proper and acceptable "minimum".


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

joesturbo said:


> How many people here have been to 3rd world countries? To Europe? I have many times over, just like poverty this issue is over played here in the U.S. like we have real pollution issues or homeless issues. Until you can't see your hand in front of your face, or you go by a town of thousands made out of cardboard you don't understand how ridiculous our government and media has become on so many topics.












The typical, "If I can't see it, it doesn't exist" argument. Has the thought ever entered your mind that the reason our air is cleaner and our water better is because we have an environmental protection agency? Did that ever occur to you? 

You don't just dissolve the EPA because you're not choking on smog, and then bring the EPA back when the smog returns. The issues that many third-world countries face are the worst of the worst. It's the job of the EPA and other regulatory bodies to ensure that we never sink to that level.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

jp71624 said:


> Yes. Make the stringent requirements where necessary, not blanket regulations for the entire country, outside of a more proper and acceptable "minimum".


Cars have a funny way of not staying in the exact city where they were originally sold. Also, the more variations you have of a car, the higher the cost of development. It actually ends up being more expensive often times because the economy of scale is reduced for each individual model.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

jp71624 said:


> Yes. Make the stringent requirements where necessary, not blanket regulations for the entire country, outside of a more proper and acceptable "minimum".


More 1 dimensional thought. :banghead:


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

AZGolf said:


> Cars have a funny way of not staying in the exact city where they were originally sold. Also, the more variations you have of a car, the higher the cost of development. It actually ends up being more expensive often times because the economy of scale is reduced for each individual model.


Registrations and insurance policies tend to have a county of registration along with a physical vehicle location. That's plenty enough information to logically deduce average regional driving habits. Infrequent and rare driving locations are rather inconsequential. They don't need to know where every car goes at all times.

I think you're making a stretch on economy of scale, as per vehicle emissions equipment removed from the cost would almost surely negate any fixed and variable cost increases. Not adding certain exhaust equipment or using a less restrictive ECM code is not going to be make a difference; in fact, it may be less expensive, but this is too general of an example to go into much calculation over.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

DJMRDARK said:


> More 1 dimensional thought. :banghead:


Says the fellow who brings up ABS saving lives as an argument point parallel with emissions killing people...
I wouldn't ask rhetorical questions you're completely ignorant about, but that's just my advice.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/regrev/evaluate/808206.html

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811182.PDF


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

The 'extreme' 'strict' emissions standards that the dastardly EPA is making VW comply to were drafted in *1999*, enacted in 2000, and phased in from 2004-2009 model years. This ridiculous standard that about 100,000,000 cars and trucks sold in the US have met for the past 7 years (less 500,000 bad apples) was even achievable in the early 2000s in the CARB "SULEV" cars of the day. 

I don't see why 'EPA set the bar too high' is a serious argument when we're talking about a bar set by the William Jefferson Clinton administration.


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

Surf Green said:


> If you look at the EPA's FTP protocol, it's ridiculously gentle, never asking for more than 3.3mph/sec acceleration. I don't know anyone who drives like that.


The EPA driving cycles were designed in the late 1970s, when most cars were quite underpowered by today's standards.

http://www.therustyrabbit.com/ZIP/77CR_Rabbitreview.rar shows an old _Consumer Reports_ test of four 1977 cars (Rabbit, Sunbird, Corolla, Mustang II). Their 0-60 miles per hour times ranged from 14.5 seconds (Rabbit) to 18.2 seconds (Corolla). Note that 3.3 miles per hour per second over 18.2 seconds reaches 60 miles per hour, so the Corolla with the accelerator on the floor is barely capable of that acceleration over the range of 0 to 60 miles per hour (of course, maximum acceleration is not constant over that range of speed, being faster than 3.3 miles per hour per second in the lower part of the range and slower than 3.3 miles per hour per second in the upper part of the range).

So the EPA driving cycle acceleration rates were realistic for the cars that existed at the time the EPA driving cycle was designed.


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

DJMRDARK said:


> I expect Mazda, Subaru, Hyundai/Kia, and Honda to all gain from VW's mess. They all compete directly in some way and are typically the brands cross-shopped.
> 
> Plus other diesel offerings such as the Cruze will gain disenchanted TDI owners who still crave diesel. EVs/Hybrids will boost.


Also, if the ECU update runs the engine in "low emissions mode" all the time, with fuel economy matching the EPA estimates (instead of often being better), then the fuel economy appeal of the cars become less with gasoline powered competition in the same ballpark.

2015 fuel economy estimates:


```
Fit AV          33/41
Jetta TDI M6    31/46
Jetta TDI A6    31/45
Golf TDI A6     31/43
Golf TDI M6     30/45
Civic HF AV     31/41
Versa AV        31/40
Focus SFE1.0 M6 30/42
Corolla Eco AV  30/42
Beetle TDI M6   31/41
Beetle TDI A6   31/41
Mazda3 2.0 A6   30/41
Sentra FE AV    30/40
Corolla Eco AV  30/40
Mazda3 2.0 M6   29/41
Sonic 1.4 M6    29/40
Focus 1.0 M6    29/40
Mazda3 2.5 A6   29/40
Sentra AV       29/39
Civic A7        29/38
Cruze Eco M6    28/42
Cruze Diesel A6 27/46
```


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

jp71624 said:


> I think you're making a stretch on economy of scale, as per vehicle emissions equipment removed from the cost would almost surely negate any fixed and variable cost increases.


Nope, and the pervasiveness of the code gives a sense of this. 

And the possibility that management truly didn't now about the code. Specialized code would require a signoff for a market-specific modification. That requires documentation. 

Oh, yikes.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

joesturbo said:


> How many people here have been to 3rd world countries? To Europe? I have many times over, just like poverty this issue is over played here in the U.S. like we have real pollution issues or homeless issues. Until you can't see your hand in front of your face, or you go by a town of thousands made out of cardboard you don't understand how ridiculous our government and media has become on so many topics.


The point of the government is to try and PREVENT this from happening and that is done through policy. You are missing the point.



BBC Technology Desk said:


> *VW: Calls to let car software be examined by experts*
> By Leo Kelion Technology desk editor
> 
> Car-makers' should not be protected from independent scrutiny of their software by copyright laws, say campaigners.
> ...


----------



## Village Idiot™ (Jan 20, 2005)

Has it already been brought up that the German government already knew about this for a little while?

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/0...warned-vw-test-beating-software/?intcmp=hpbt4


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Another pretty interesting read. Kind of part III of their diesel series



BBC Business said:


> Volkswagen scandal: Are car emissions tests fit for purpose?
> By Russell Hotten Business reporter, BBC News
> 
> The scandal involving Volkswagen cheating car pollution rules in the US has thrown a spotlight on emissions testing - particularly in Europe.
> ...


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

joesturbo said:


> How many people here have been to 3rd world countries? To Europe? I have many times over, just like poverty this issue is over played here in the U.S. like we have real pollution issues or homeless issues. Until you can't see your hand in front of your face, or you go by a town of thousands made out of cardboard you don't understand how ridiculous our government and media has become on so many topics.


And the reason US air quality is so much better than Europe, Asia, and the developing world is......

Uh....

Hm. 

This is a stumper. 

****ING MAGIC. That must be it. It's the only thing that can explain why our air qualiy is good. There's literally nothing else preventing our air from looking like Beijing's. Harry Potter-ass magic, with wands and crap. 

Meanwhile, man, our government is just cray-cray about regulations, huh? Totes ridic. They should just let the, like, free market take care of that ****.


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

Village Idiot™ said:


> Has it already been brought up that the German government already knew about this for a little while?
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/0...warned-vw-test-beating-software/?intcmp=hpbt4


Wow. What a mess.

And it looks like s***'s about to go down in Germany. 

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34345210


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

from another thread/article:



> Carder said he's surprised to see such a hullabaloo now, *because his team's findings were made public nearly a year and a half ago.*
> 
> "We actually presented this data in a public forum and were actually questioned by Volkswagen," said Carder.


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

Village Idiot™ said:


> Has it already been brought up that the German government already knew about this for a little while?
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/0...warned-vw-test-beating-software/?intcmp=hpbt4


I took that as a given, since VW is partially owned by the state of Lower Saxony.


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

> VW lawyers up with firm that defended BP
> 
> The string of bad news for Volkswagen shows no sign of slowing yet, especially with the recent resignation of CEO Martin Winterkorn. For aid in its legal defense in the US over its ongoing diesel emissions scandal, the automaker has now employed Kirkland & Ellis LLP, which was the same law firm BP used for the Deepwater Horizon oil spill, according to Automotive News.
> 
> ...


http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/23/...-emissions-scandal/?ncid=edlinkusauto00000016


----------



## pasateando (Mar 19, 2002)

witch hunt will go in full swing, better fire those low level employees before they testify they were following upper management orders! :laugh:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/volks...sions-scandal-sources-102832513--finance.html


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Sporin said:


> http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/23/...-emissions-scandal/?ncid=edlinkusauto00000016


i don't think they'll be hit anywhere near as hard as BP. comparing the two disasters, VW can at least say the BP disaster had a visible, lasting, and devastating impact on the environment, whereas theirs isn't any of that.


----------



## Seabird (Feb 8, 2002)

pasateando said:


> witch hunt will go in full swing, better fire those low level employees before they testify they were following upper management orders! :laugh:
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/volks...sions-scandal-sources-102832513--finance.html


"I vaz only vollowink orduhz!"










Godwin?


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

GoHomeBroke said:


> i don't think they'll be hit anywhere near as hard as BP. comparing the two disasters, VW can at least say the BP disaster had a visible, lasting, and devastating impact on the environment, whereas theirs isn't any of that.


I dunno. I keep seeing this scandal compared to massive accidents. It's flat out global scale fraud. I honestly can't think of anything to compare it to. I'm sure there's other fraud situations that have happened with major companies, but at this global scale? This may be a first.


----------



## Zunflower (Jun 5, 2013)

GoHomeBroke said:


> i don't think they'll be hit anywhere near as hard as BP. comparing the two disasters, VW can at least say the BP disaster had a visible, lasting, and devastating impact on the environment, whereas theirs isn't any of that.



Really?

Who is to say about that, yet? #hottestsummereverrecorded


----------



## GruuvenNorth (Dec 13, 2006)

Well, not sure if someone posted this yet;



> Martin Winterkorn resigns as Volkswagen CEO


http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/23/martin-winterkorn-resigns-as-volkswagen-ceo.html


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

GruuvenNorth said:


> Well, not sure if someone posted this yet;
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/23/martin-winterkorn-resigns-as-volkswagen-ceo.html


Joke's a little old, now :laugh:


----------



## jddaigle (May 30, 2003)

Zunflower said:


> Really?
> 
> Who is to say about that, yet? #hottestsummereverrecorded


NOx is not a contributor to global warming. The cars actually emitted less CO2 when they were on the road than they did during tests. What NOx does cause is ground-level ozone and smog. Still bad, but this is not a greenhouse gas issue.


----------



## tbvvw (Jun 19, 2002)

Although I don’t own a VW at this time, I’ve bought 8 new and used VWs from 2 dealerships over the past 26 years. The first Tischer of Laurel, MD (now Ourisman) and the last 15 years with VW of South Charlotte.

I dropped my A3 off for service there this morning, it was the most depressed dealership environment I have ever experienced.
First off, at 7:40AM...I was the ONLY customer on the lot which is unheard of, esp in the service area. Then, the GM walks by with his eyes straight to the floor and says nothing. Usually he’d say good morning and can I help you with anything. Today, nothing. One third of their normally packed new inventory lot is gone and no cars parked out front on the lawn. Not sure if that’s the old year gone and awaiting new 2016 models or if they moved all the diesels off the lot. I think diesels are 25% of their new car sales. I am usually asked if I need a free shuttle ride to my office...that didn't happen today. 

The ripple effect is gonna be a real downer for a lot of folks who don’t deserve this...


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

One thing I find silly about this whole thing.. here..

3 weeks ago if we had a thread about which mainstream car drivetrain was better for the environment: hybrids, diesels, electric ... many of the same people now saying "epa and emissions don't matter. .. it's way overblown " would have been arguing that diesels are much better for the environment because 3 weeks ago that was the image VW was still pushing.


----------



## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Pollution happens and EPA exists to try and deal with it in a way that benefits society as a whole.


At what cost? And if you actually think their primary agenda is to benefit society, you're crazy. They exist to push the environment politic, not to further society -- if that was the case, they'd be applauding VW for bringing in cheap cars that get 45+ MPG and pushing to help lower prices at the pump instead of shoving expensive Chinese-made batteries down our collective throats.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

tbvvw said:


> ... The ripple effect is gonna be a real downer for a lot of folks who don’t deserve this ...


We're taking my wife's Audi in tomorrow. Think it might need a new ignition stitch. Curious to see how the dealer is. A friend is general manager and we also need to see him for a favor. I wonder if Mr. Average Joe doesn't make the connection to Audi. Audi sales aren't so wedded to diesels, too.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

VT1.8T said:


> If it were that simple don't you think they would have sold the car that way?


I'm not saying it's necessarily simple. A tune that works for a dyno test routine can be complete **** on the road, the same way teaching kids to pass a standardized test may not actually help them learn a subject.


----------



## rice is burning (Jan 29, 2009)

I was watching BBC news this morning and they reported that the heads of Audi and Porsche have also resigned.

Ruh-roh.


----------



## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

tbvvw said:


> Although I don’t own a VW at this time, I’ve bought 8 new and used VWs from 2 dealerships over the past 26 years. The first Tischer of Laurel, MD (now Ourisman) and the last 15 years with VW of South Charlotte.
> 
> I dropped my A3 off for service there this morning, it was the most depressed dealership environment I have ever experienced.
> First off, at 7:40AM...I was the ONLY customer on the lot which is unheard of, esp in the service area. Then, the GM walks by with his eyes straight to the floor and says nothing. Usually he’d say good morning and can I help you with anything. Today, nothing. One third of their normally packed new inventory lot is gone and no cars parked out front on the lawn. Not sure if that’s the old year gone and awaiting new 2016 models or if they moved all the diesels off the lot. I think diesels are 25% of their new car sales. I am usually asked if I need a free shuttle ride to my office...that didn't happen today.
> ...


My local VW dealer has their entire TDI inventory behind the building in auxiliary storage.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

CK98Beeetle said:


> I dunno. I keep seeing this scandal compared to massive accidents. It's flat out global scale fraud. I honestly can't think of anything to compare it to. I'm sure there's other fraud situations that have happened with major companies, but at this global scale? This may be a first.


of course it's fraud, but as it's been mentioned, NOx isn't CO2. this isn't some global pandemic where VW was endangering lives or putting the collective health of the entire world at risk. for me, it's a mixture of surprise and disappointment. is what they did bad? yes. do they deserve to be punished? absolutely. should they be punished more severely than companies who have killed people? no.

don't get me wrong, VW deserves some backlash from this. they played the game and lost, so they get to deal with the consequences. i just don't think those consequences should be harsher than what GM is getting for what they did.


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

> Audi research chief Ulrich Hackenberg, Porsche research chief Wolfgang Hatz, and VW US chief executive Michael Horn are to be dismissed by the VW board tomorrow, ITV is reporting a senior source saying.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...SUV-breaches-EU-emissions-standards-live.html


----------



## intercedeGLI (Sep 8, 2002)

BRealistic said:


> would have been arguing that diesels are much better for the environment because 3 weeks ago that was the image VW was still pushing.


The older I get the more I realize my knowledge on subjects is very narrow, that being "encyclopedic" is really just a thin veneer covering a vast chasm of ignorance, and that I am subject to the same ebb and flow of general opinion as the rest. 

Volkswagen successfully marketed the idea of clean diesel to the public. Politicians in Europe touted the line for years and we ate it up. 

I don't blame the general public for being less informed than we should be. There is a lot to know about in this big world. I just don't like the fact that we treat scientists, engineers and academics with derision and contempt more than we do admiration and respect. "We" being the public at large. 

I just think the about-face is a sign of good marketing and poor public understanding with a dash of crafty deception.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

improvius said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...SUV-breaches-EU-emissions-standards-live.html


http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/news/audi-head-porsche-engine-boss-quit-scandal-article-1.2372681



> The ongoing "dieselgate" scandal has claimed the titles of even more Volkswagen Group executives, now including Audi's global head of R&D, Porsche's engine manager, and Volkwagen USA's CEO. This comes after Volkswagen AG's global CEO Martin Winterkorn resigned yesterday.
> 
> Audi's head of R&D Ulrich Hackenberg, Porsche's Wolfgang Hatz, and VW USA's Michael Horn are all out at the world's largest automaker, presumably following allegations that they had knowledge of the emissions test cheating methods that affected all 2009-2015 TDI diesel cars equipped with the four-cylinder engine.
> 
> ...


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

intercedeGLI said:


> The older I get the more I realize my knowledge on subjects is very narrow, that being "encyclopedic" is really just a thin veneer covering a vast chasm of ignorance, and that I am subject to the same ebb and flow of general opinion as the rest.
> 
> Volkswagen successfully marketed the idea of clean diesel to the public. Politicians in Europe touted the line for years and we ate it up.
> 
> ...


we, as individuals, can never be fully in the know about every little aspect that affects our daily lives. we can be educated on certain matters, and keep up with the latest info all we like. there's still going to be some things we never know or learn about later that makes us question what we knew at the time. c'est la vie.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

jsausley said:


> My local VW dealer has their entire TDI inventory behind the building in auxiliary storage.


I assume (or at least hope) at this point VW picks up the floor planning costs on all those vehicles.


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)




----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

tbvvw said:


> The ripple effect is gonna be a real downer for a lot of folks who don’t deserve this...


People forget about that kind of thing all the time. I have a guy who works for me and he's appalled if/when I got to get a Subway sandwich. I know the guy who owns the franchise and he didn't do a damn thing wrong. Should he be punished for what that jackass did? Should he be punished because one of Subway's lawyers knew about the situation? How about the thousands of other owners/employees?

Did I mention that my local dealer just opened (as in two weeks ago) a brand new dealership showroom at a different location? It looks like they spent a LOT of money on it, too.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Soooooo..... I'm guessing LeMans will be a few teams short next year?


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> Soooooo..... I'm guessing LeMans will be a few teams short next year?


Maybe. Maybe not. They need all of the good publicity they can get.


Wait... They're all still diesels, aren't they? Man, if they do run them there won't be the letters 'TDI' anywhere!


----------



## CostcoPizza (Jan 20, 2008)

jsausley said:


> At what cost? And if you actually think their primary agenda is to benefit society, you're crazy. They exist to push the environment politic, not to further society -- if that was the case, they'd be applauding VW for bringing in cheap cars that get 45+ MPG and pushing to help lower prices at the pump instead of shoving expensive Chinese-made batteries down our collective throats.


Yes, if the EPA cared they would be pushing for more and cheaper gas. :screwy:

Under what pretense does that make sense?

You need an Econ 101 or Public Policy 101 course, badly.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

Air and water do mix said:


> Maybe. Maybe not. They need all of the good publicity they can get.
> 
> Wait... They're all still diesels, aren't they? Man, if they do run them there won't be the letters 'TDI' anywhere!


The message has been focused on e-tron for the last several years, so I'm not sure it'll be that significant of a shift.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

CostcoPizza said:


> Yes, if the EPA cared they would be pushing for more and cheaper gas. :screwy:


I'm okay with that!


----------



## R32Schwagdog (Nov 2, 2008)

So, how many tons of excess Nox does this equate to everyone?:laugh:


Any where near the 15,748,000 tons that happened in this same fashion in the 90s? :screwy: Their penalty: hit the next emisions levels early. Fines totaling roughly 1 B 


•	Caterpillar Inc. produced 320,000 engines containing defeat devices since 1988. These engines resulted in excess NOx emissions of 2.1 million tons. The company will pay a civil penalty of $25 million, and will conduct environmental projects costing $35 million.
•	Cummins Engine Company produced 400,000 engines containing defeat devices since 1991. These engines resulted in excess NOx emissions of 3.6 million tons. The company will pay a civil penalty of $25 million, and will conduct environmental projects costing $35 million.
•	Detroit Diesel Corporation produced 430,000 engines containing defeat devices since 1988. These engines resulted in excess NOx emissions of 9.0 million tons of NOx. The company will pay a civil penalty of $12.5 million, and will conduct environmental projects costing $12 million.
•	Mack Trucks, Inc. and its business partner, Renault Vehicules Industriels, s.a. , produced 90,000 engines containing defeat devices since 1990. These engines resulted in excess NOx emissions of 860,000 tons. The company will pay a civil penalty of $13 million, and will conduct environmental projects costing $18 million.
•	Navistar International Transportation Company produced 78,000 engines containing defeat devices since 1994. These engines resulted in excess NOx emissions of 40,000 tons. The company will pay a civil penalty of $2.9 million.
•	Volvo Truck Corporation produced 10,000 engines containing defeat devices since 1994. These engines resulted in excess NOx emissions of 148,000 tons. The company will pay a civil penalty of $5 million, and will conduct environmental projects costing $9 million.

We shall see - we shall see


----------



## AwdOwns (Mar 29, 2009)

Zunflower said:


> Really?
> 
> Who is to say about that, yet? #hottestsummereverrecorded


Considering they're recalling cars from as far back as 09 I highly doubt it has anything to do with us having a hot summer :screwy:

If that's your theory we would have been having hotter summers since the first gas automobile was released.


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

tbvvw said:


> Although I don’t own a VW at this time, I’ve bought 8 new and used VWs from 2 dealerships over the past 26 years. The first Tischer of Laurel, MD (now Ourisman) and the last 15 years with VW of South Charlotte.
> 
> I dropped my A3 off for service there this morning, it was the most depressed dealership environment I have ever experienced.
> First off, at 7:40AM...I was the ONLY customer on the lot which is unheard of, esp in the service area. Then, the GM walks by with his eyes straight to the floor and says nothing. Usually he’d say good morning and can I help you with anything. Today, nothing. One third of their normally packed new inventory lot is gone and no cars parked out front on the lawn. Not sure if that’s the old year gone and awaiting new 2016 models or if they moved all the diesels off the lot. I think diesels are 25% of their new car sales. I am usually asked if I need a free shuttle ride to my office...that didn't happen today.
> ...


Why am I not surprised that you are so familar with the way your Audi's service department acts regularly? :laugh:

/jk


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

jsausley said:


> At what cost? And if you actually think their primary agenda is to benefit society, you're crazy. They exist to push the environment politic, not to further society -- if that was the case, they'd be applauding VW for bringing in cheap cars that get 45+ MPG and pushing to help lower prices at the pump instead of shoving expensive Chinese-made batteries down our collective throats.


Preach it, brother! What society ever benefited from clean air and clean water anyway?


----------



## pasateando (Mar 19, 2002)

As much as I am a VW fan, I don't understand people defending them or saying the EPA emission levels "don't matter". Sure, locomotives and tractor trailers produce more pollutants, but that is not the point.

The point is that they knowingly committed fraud and continued to market it as "clean diesel".
I fell bad for the mom/pop VW worker that had their pension fund hedged to the VW stock. I feel bad for the VW dealerships/employees due to loss sales.

Think how unfair this whole scandal is for other OEMs, for example, Chrysler (FCA now) since 2007 could have been selling JK wranglers in the USA equipped with the 2.8L Diesel engines, but they didn't, because most likely it was too expensive/compliocated to add all the necessary DPF, SCR systems required to meet those emissions.... think about all their potential lost sales......

Try to get your head out of the sand and try to look at the big picture, large scale global FRAUD!


----------



## AchtungE30 (Jun 29, 2009)

BRealistic said:


> One thing I find silly about this whole thing.. here..
> 
> 3 weeks ago if we had a thread about which mainstream car drivetrain was better for the environment: hybrids, diesels, electric ... many of the same people now saying "epa and emissions don't matter. .. it's way overblown " would have been arguing that diesels are much better for the environment because 3 weeks ago that was the image VW was still pushing.


So is the stop-sale still in effect??
I'm wondering if I can buy a new TDI golf for $10k under invoice :laugh:


----------



## tbvvw (Jun 19, 2002)

Smigelski said:


> Why am I not surprised that you are so familar with the way your Audi's service department acts regularly? :laugh:
> 
> /jk


Actually...I stopped taking my Audi's to the Audi dealership after the free 4yr/50K service expired...because th VW shop is closer to me and charges 70 cents on the dollar for the EXACT same work.

Having said that, the VW's I have owned rarely gave me trouble...I know I just put a voodoo curse on myself, but hey. 

One place I will never go is Fitzgerald in Annapolis...both my brothers live in Severna park and they have their share of VW stories.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Ooooh, Hackenberg out. I've met him. Still need to keep going on the VW side. Down about two levels.....


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

tbvvw said:


> Actually...I stopped taking my Audi's to the Audi dealership after the free 4yr/50K service expired...because th VW shop is closer to me and charges 70 cents on the dollar for the EXACT same work.
> 
> Having said that, the VW's I have owned rarely gave me trouble...I know I just put a voodoo curse on myself, but hey.
> 
> One place I will never go is Fitzgerald in Annapolis...both my brothers live in Severna park and they have their share of VW stories.


:thumbup:

I actually bought two of my VWs from Ourisman in Laurel. A third came from Rockville. I've heard similar things about Fitzgerald.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Smigelski said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> I actually bought two of my VWs from Ourisman in Laurel. A third came from Rockville. I've heard similar things about Fitzgerald.


Yeah, Fitz is not that good. Annapolis is decent though.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

MCTB said:


> Yeah, Fitz is not that good. Annapolis is decent though.


You're gonna make this guy sad.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

Here's a data point from Edmunds.com corroborating what a lot of you suspect. And it's a "good" data point because they had two identical (right down to the colors) Passats, one a TSI, the other a TDI. I also didn't know this is how the EPA calculated MPG figures.

http://www.edmunds.com/volkswagen/p...-on-future-emissions-recall-expectations.html





















> Fuel economy ratings are derived from the same series of indoor dynamometer (dyno) tests that are used to measure emissions compliance. The two are so interlinked that MPG is wholly based on one of the emission components that are measured: CO2. *The amount of fuel burned is directly related to the amount of CO2 produced, so MPG is actually back-calculated from the measured quantity of CO2 emitted during the tests.*
> 
> What this means is the illegal software trick that was triggered by the dyno test also had a direct bearing on the Passat TDI's fuel economy test results. Likewise, the on-road calibration that does not comply with emission standards would determine the TDI's observed fuel economy in real-world circumstances.
> 
> ...


As for which models are and aren't affected...



> The EPA hit-list also includes the 2015 TDI versions of all of these cars, and has refused to certify any 2016 versions for sale. But these use a totally new 2.0-liter TDI engine, one that belongs to a whole new engine family that goes by the name EA288. All of them have SCR systems that use DEF, not just the Passat.
> 
> *VW's response includes a statement that says the bad software was limited to the older EA189 engine family, which only goes as far as the 2014 models.* If true, the 2015 and later vehicles may fall off the EPA's list with no need for updated software or other recall measures to be in compliance.


With my 2015 Jetta, while I have slightly exceeded the EPA #s, I'm not getting the 60 MPG often claimed on TDIClub, so I wonder if I have the polar-bear-approved PCM software?


----------



## tbvvw (Jun 19, 2002)

Smigelski said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> I actually bought two of my VWs from Ourisman in Laurel. A third came from Rockville. I've heard similar things about Fitzgerald.


To me the Laurel dealership (VW & Honda) will always be "Tischer". My family bought 6-7 cars there from the mid 70s until the late 90s.
They also used to throw a nice family friendly Oktoberfest day...my dad would always be good for a new Golf after a brat and 4-5 Spatens. :beer:


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Better him than her








Who knows what the crypt keeper would do to me.

I have never met her but apparently she likes to wow a lot of people.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

g-man_ae said:


> Here's a data point from Edmunds.com corroborating what a lot of you suspect. And it's a "good" data point because they had two identical (right down to the colors) Passats, one a TSI, the other a TDI. I also didn't know this is how the EPA calculated MPG figures.


Well, that confirms my earlier idea about the number. :thumbup:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

g-man_ae said:


> Here's a data point from Edmunds.com corroborating what a lot of you suspect. And it's a "good" data point because they had two identical (right down to the colors) Passats, one a TSI, the other a TDI. I also didn't know this is how the EPA calculated MPG figures.
> 
> http://www.edmunds.com/volkswagen/p...-on-future-emissions-recall-expectations.html
> 
> ...


if this is true, then a simple reflash to put the ECU into test mode permanently could be the solution. either that, or make a recall to replace the ECU entirely.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

MCTB said:


> Yeah, Fitz is not that good. Annapolis is decent though.


The buying experience at Fitz is decent. I've test driven a couple cars at their VW location and our family has bought and sold a couple Mazdas at their Mazda/Mitsu store. No complaints. 

I wouldn't service there though.


----------



## absoluteczech (Sep 13, 2006)

Opinion: Think VW’s stock can make you rich on a rebound? Think again


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

g-man_ae said:


> With my 2015 Jetta, while I have slightly exceeded the EPA #s, I'm not getting the 60 MPG often claimed on TDIClub, so I wonder if I have the polar-bear-approved PCM software?


It should be better, at the very least. The AdBlue Passats were already doing better than the Golf-based cars even before the first attempted fix.


----------



## Rob (Feb 19, 1999)

Porsche CEO will become head of VW.


----------



## roger2050 (Oct 27, 2010)

...and there goes BMW: 

BMW shares slip on report of high emission levels


----------



## firstorbit84 (Feb 25, 2006)

CK98Beeetle said:


> I dunno. I keep seeing this scandal compared to massive accidents. It's flat out global scale fraud. I honestly can't think of anything to compare it to. I'm sure there's other fraud situations that have happened with major companies, but at this global scale? This may be a first.


9/11?


----------



## rawk (Jul 29, 2000)

firstorbit84 said:


> 9/11?


:laugh::thumbup::laugh:

That only resulted in 1.5m deaths so far in Iraq. A splash in the pan!


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

I knew these diesel engines were never as clean as as the claims were. All you have to do is drive behind any new diesel to know that they're dirty little bastards. There is no such thing as 'clean' diesel anymore than there is 'clean' coal.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

I was wondering why TDIs with urea injection - which should be sufficient to pass emissions in the US -would still have this software. Here's a possible explanation.



> *A senior source within the German car industry has shed light on the most significant outstanding question of the VW scandal, namely why?*
> 
> If the offending cars have all the emissions equipment on board to make the car compliant with the regulations, why take such an enormous risk engineering in the so-called ‘defeat device’ to bypass that equipment?
> 
> ...


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Hawk said:


> I knew these diesel engines were never as clean as as the claims were. All you have to do is drive behind any new diesel to know that they're dirty little bastards. There is no such thing as 'clean' diesel anymore than there is 'clean' coal.


Hawc, you knew nothing. Stop trying to pump yourself up.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Hajduk said:


> I was wondering why TDIs with urea injection - which should be sufficient to pass emissions in the US -would still have this software. Here's a possible explanation.
> 
> 
> > A senior source within the German car industry has shed light on the most significant outstanding question of the VW scandal, namely why?
> ...



so they're more than likely gonna have to replace every single ECU with this software programmed in.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

Hajduk said:


> A "senior source" within the German car industry


... who works for the marketing arm of BMW ...

I kid, I kid. Maybe.


----------



## SVTJayC (Mar 30, 2006)

So yeah, like I was saying (foil hat and all)...


http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...-ceo-matthias-muller-named-ceo-of-volkswagen/


----------



## Quinn1.8t (Oct 8, 2006)

Rob said:


> Porsche CEO will become head of VW.


GT3 all the things!


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Quinn1.8t said:


> GT3 all the things!


Golf GT3RS!

it will replace the demands for TTRS.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

GoHomeBroke said:


> Golf GT3RS!
> 
> it will replace the demands for TTRS.


And it'll cost $80,000


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

1985Jetta said:


> And it'll cost $80,000


INB4 $80k for a Golf????!?!?!?!?!


----------



## wolfcastle (Jul 28, 2006)

1985Jetta said:


> And it'll cost $80,000


Maybe you can sell all of your cars and put a healthy down payment on one, finance the other 40k? :laugh:


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)

The resemblance of a young Ferdinand Piech to Matthias Muller is strong.



















Similar bone structure, similar blue eyes, same MPB.

Love child or clone?


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

ClownCar said:


> The resemblance of a young Ferdinand Piech to Matthias Muller is strong.


Anyone else thing the fired CEO looked a little like Lee Iacocca?


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 5, 2002)

Edmunds said:


> The recent revelations offer a possible explanation. Based on how MPG is derived, the window sticker ratings were surely derived from the emissions-complaint dyno calibration. Meanwhile, our observed fuel economy can only be the result of the illegal non-compliant engine calibration that takes over when the car is not being tested.


So almost all of the ALH doing better in real world than EPA ratings?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

ClownCar said:


> Love child or clone?


Mein Gott! The boys from Brazil!


----------



## IronJoe (Dec 23, 2004)

Maybe this has been asked and answered in the previous pages of this thread, so forgive me... but, would it have been possible for aftermarket tuners to find this "defeat device"? 

I know there are a few tuners out there that strive to increase horsepower/torque/driveability while maintaining the factory emissions compliance... It would surprise me if no one stumbled upon the discrepancy between on-road and dyno emissions sooner. Thoughts?


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)




----------



## dragonfli_x (Jul 16, 2002)

@IronJoe

I was also wondering about this for tuned 2009-2014 Tuned TDIs... Programming ECU Flashes for Audi/VW cars isn't easy and there are numerous walls that need to be bypassed to ensure a safe and effective tune to sell to mass public. 

That being said, wouldn't they have seen this and known about the "test" mode? Anyone who wanted to get a baseline dyno for their car would effectively seen the power output of the "testing mode" and been content with it because there haven't been complaints of those owners stating, "my car has xxx hp from the factory and my dyno claims otherwise!"
So would that point to all TDI's being underrated from the factory and real world driving being much better? 

Stemming from that, if a tune was made to make a dyno show more hp ON the dyno, does that possibly mean that all the tuner had to do was turn off "testing mode" when setting up those conditions to give the illusion that more power was given when in actuality, nothing was changed in the code except removing the test mode? (I cringe at the thought) The butt dyno would be emotionally biased by the amount of power that butt paid...

Is that why tuners didn't have a suitable TDI tune until 2012 even though the engine and ECU had been out since 2009?! Would consumers have known that their 500-700 chip tune was just a line change in code? I'd feel hard pressed to believe that TDI tuner companies would NOT have known about this odd discrepancy... I obviously don't know what specialization is needed to create a good TDI tune... 

On the other hand, if the upgrade was legit and the entire program was rewritten right - does that mean the "Stock" setting on the tune is actually EPA compliant? 

OMG OMG i think my head's gonna implode... thoughts?


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

pasateando said:


> witch hunt will go in full swing, better fire those low level employees before they testify they were following upper management orders! :laugh:
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/volks...sions-scandal-sources-102832513--finance.html


Um, firing them won't prevent them from being subeonaed/testifying. Any firings now only give the agencies a short list of people to look at in the investigation.


----------



## Seabird (Feb 8, 2002)

Air and water do mix said:


> People forget about that kind of thing all the time. I have a guy who works for me and he's appalled if/when I got to get a Subway sandwich. I know the guy who owns the franchise and he didn't do a damn thing wrong. Should he be punished for what that jackass did? Should he be punished because one of Subway's lawyers knew about the situation? How about the thousands of other owners/employees?
> 
> Did I mention that my local dealer just opened (as in two weeks ago) a brand new dealership showroom at a different location? It looks like they spent a LOT of money on it, too.


How many independent convenience store owners got punished because the sign that they pay licensing fees for signs that say BP (Deepwater Horizon spill), Exxon (Veldez spill), or Citgo (Hugo Chavez and Venezuela in general)?


----------



## Aw614 (May 9, 2001)

dragonfli_x said:


> Is that why tuners didn't have a suitable TDI tune until 2012 even though the engine and ECU had been out since 2009?! Would consumers have known that their 500-700 chip tune was just a line change in code? I'd feel hard pressed to believe that TDI tuner companies would NOT have known about this odd discrepancy... I obviously don't know what specialization is needed to create a good TDI tune...
> 
> On the other hand, if the upgrade was legit and the entire program was rewritten right - does that mean the "Stock" setting on the tune is actually EPA compliant?
> 
> OMG OMG i think my head's gonna implode... thoughts?


I thought the tune issue was/is similar to the tsi motors with the extra encryption and having to be bench flashed? I didn't realize TDIs didnt have a suitable tune until 2012.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> So almost all of the ALH doing better in real world than EPA ratings?


It took a little bit of searching, but it appears that from 1994 to 2003, the worst that a vehicle was supposed to be certified under was TLEV category emissions. It looks like that allows NOx up to 0.4 g/mi at 50k vehicle miles and up to 0.6 g/mi at 120k vehicle miles. The VW's at the center of the probe are accused of emitting somewhere in the range of up to 1 g/mi. I'm not sure the EPA even cares enough to look at the 98-03 models, but IMO they should. They are suspect as well.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

Hawk said:


> I knew these diesel engines were never as clean as as the claims were. All you have to do is drive behind any new diesel to know that they're dirty little bastards. There is no such thing as 'clean' diesel anymore than there is 'clean' coal.


I was behind a Honda CRV yesterday, and the owner opened it up. It looked like someone threw a firecracker into a cave full of bats.

Did Honda sell a Diesel CRV in the US?


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

Worn rings?

I've been behind vehicles at a toll booth and it was like I was behind James Bond's Aston Martin with a smoke screen.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Surf Green said:


> It looked like someone threw a firecracker into a cave full of bats.


O.............M.............G...............


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Cooper said:


> Worn rings?
> 
> I've been behind vehicles at a toll booth and it was like I was behind James Bond's Aston Martin with a smoke screen.


Hondas seem to have a common ring issue.


----------



## jpawl (Apr 12, 2000)

IronJoe said:


> Maybe this has been asked and answered in the previous pages of this thread, so forgive me... but, would it have been possible for aftermarket tuners to find this "defeat device"?
> 
> I know there are a few tuners out there that strive to increase horsepower/torque/driveability while maintaining the factory emissions compliance... It would surprise me if no one stumbled upon the discrepancy between on-road and dyno emissions sooner. Thoughts?


I had a passing thought as well, however, can't the tuners (beyond diesel) out there also have the ability to add in a "defeat" program in the code so to speak if and when a car is being tested for emissions or just to improve overall performance for consumers that dish out $500 - $800 for a reflash?

Jim


----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

DJMRDARK said:


> Hondas seem to have a common ring issue.


No. Only Volkswagens have problem prone engines. Everyone in TCL knows that.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

I doubt the emission test does Wide Open Throttle.
But dyno runs to plot engine power do.
So going WOT should keep it out of Tepid Test Tune.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

atomicalex said:


> O.............M.............G...............


Oh, no... it's okay. You can do this now. They cured White Nose. :laugh: 


j/k I only destroy the environment in my TDI, I love bats.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

GoHomeBroke said:


> should they be punished more severely than companies who have killed people? no.


But NOx DOES kill people.

NOx irritates the lungs and helps form damaging particulate pollution and smog. Higher smog levels have been linked to respiratory illnesses, increased asthma attacks, and even premature deaths (especially among the sick or elderly).

Rough and admittedly evolving estimations blame VW's fraud for an additional 40,400 to 164,700 tons of NOx emissions each year, which relates to perhaps a few hundred global deaths a year. But whatever the true death figure is, it's definitely not zero.

So tiresome to see people keep asserting that VW's admitted fraud didn't kill anyone.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Surf Green said:


> I was behind a Honda CRV yesterday, and the owner opened it up. It looked like someone threw a firecracker into a cave full of bats.
> 
> Did Honda sell a Diesel CRV in the US?


Oh, dude. I toooootally laughed at that. :laugh: :beer:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Chilcoot said:


> But NOx DOES kill people.


*it does not kill people unless they're huffing the tailpipe like a college kid and his homemade bong.* it is a pollutant, and it does cause harm, but it is not *immediately* fatal unless massive amounts are present. 

what GM did was immediately fatal and resulted in 124 deaths and hundreds more left severely injured. 
what VW did is a drop in the bucket that is automotive emission pollution. a sizable drop, but a drop nonetheless.

what GM did can be physically, and most importantly, legally attributed to those deaths.
good luck doing the same for what VW did.

a quote from your link:



> Again, this is a back-of-the-envelope exercise, *not a peer-reviewed scientific analysis.*


i don't know about you, but i don't let journalists dictate what science can or can't prove.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

GoHomeBroke said:


> it is a pollutant, and it does cause harm, but it is not *immediately* fatal unless massive amounts are present.


The same is true of lead. Shall I come repaint your kitchen?


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

ByronLLN said:


> The same is true of lead. Shall I come repaint your kitchen?


Don't forget the asbestos!


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

classicjetta said:


> Don't forget the asbestos!


One project at a time!


----------



## JimNap (Aug 22, 2005)

Air and water do mix said:


> People forget about that kind of thing all the time. I have a guy who works for me and he's appalled if/when I got to get a Subway sandwich. I know the guy who owns the franchise and he didn't do a damn thing wrong. Should he be punished for what that jackass did? Should he be punished because one of Subway's lawyers knew about the situation? How about the thousands of other owners/employees?
> 
> Did I mention that my local dealer just opened (as in two weeks ago) a brand new dealership showroom at a different location? It looks like they spent a LOT of money on it, too.


No love lost on VW for what they've done to themselves, us as consumers, their shareholders, employees and yes even the dealers.

But despite what VW has done, I really have no love lost on dealers (still) because of the (in general) crappy wages they pay to sub-standard, just-graduated, techs who cant even manage to do a proper oil change or refill the DEF fluid without spilling it everywhere. That and whatever they loose in foot traffic and sales will surely get compensated by VWoA. not sure about us as the customer though. You get what you pay for typically, and the dealers get exactly what they pay for while we as the customer - apparently don't.

No offense to intended to anyone in particular here on the forum, but this site and others like VWVortex are rife with stories of incompetent techs servicing cars and having gone through a three-peat bad personal experience myself with the local VW dealer a dozen years ago, I'm convinced to do all routine maintenance myself.

Your dealer friend will survive just fine. I'm sure VWoA will offer him compensation for sales traffic lost in the near term, thanks in large part to the lengthy franchisee contracts they sign. Long Term, if he's got a nice new building, I'm sure Fiat, Alfa or Citroen will soon look far more attractive. Or for that matter, Mitsubishi.


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

I was just browsing my Facebook feed, and apparently VW is not alone. The feed showed something about the current BMW X3 was found emitting more than the legal limit. On an EcoDiesel discussion I'm on, some people have said the fed sent them letters asking for a voluntary EPA testing of their vehicle. Anyone else seen this? I would post the link, but I don't use my lap top to Facebook, so I don't know how to do that.

*Edit* Ok here it is.... http://blog.caranddriver.com/report-bmw-x3-diesel-emissions-also-exceed-legal-limit/


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

GoHomeBroke said:


> what GM did can be physically, and most importantly, legally attributed to those deaths.
> good luck doing the same for what VW did.


In the modern world, a person can make a good living as an actuary.

_An actuary is a business professional who analyzes the financial consequences of risk. Actuaries use mathematics, statistics and financial theory to study uncertain future events, especially those of concern to insurance and pension programs. They evaluate the likelihood of those events, design creative ways to reduce the likelihood and decrease the impact of adverse events that actually do occur.

Actuaries are an important part of the management team of the companies that employ them. Their work requires a combination of strong analytical skills, business knowledge and understanding of human behavior to design and manage programs that control risk._

Society of Actuaries.

That NOx kills people in a more attenuated manner than car crashes and hammer attacks do doesn't render the gas' lethality unknowable.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

Cutandthrust said:


> I was just browsing my Facebook feed, and apparently VW is not alone. The feed showed something about the current BMW X3 was found emitting more than the legal limit. On an EcoDiesel discussion I'm on, some people have said the fed sent them letters asking for a voluntary EPA testing of their vehicle. Anyone else seen this? I would post the link, but I don't use my lap top to Facebook, so I don't know how to do that.
> 
> *Edit* Ok here it is.... http://blog.caranddriver.com/report-bmw-x3-diesel-emissions-also-exceed-legal-limit/


Uh oh's, bye bye diesel 'merica!


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Chilcoot said:


> That NOx kills people in a more attenuated manner than car crashes and hammer attacks do doesn't render the gas' lethality unknowable.


This argument could show that the EPA effectively governs how many people are allowed to be culled each year. Last I checked that was Obamacare's job.


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

ByronLLN said:


> The same is true of lead. Shall I come repaint your kitchen?





classicjetta said:


> Don't forget the asbestos!


Today I learned that cigarettes never killed anyone.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

GoHomeBroke said:


> *it does not kill people unless they're huffing the tailpipe like a college kid and his homemade bong.* it is a pollutant, and it does cause harm, but it is not *immediately* fatal unless massive amounts are present.


You can argue this all you want, but your words are meaningless. The world governments are taking this dead serious, even if you're not. Why? Because your opinion doesn't mean anything and scientific fact does, hence why world governments take emissions of all kinds seriously.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

classicjetta said:


> Don't forget the asbestos!


I have some asbestos-laced duct insulation you can chew on if you like...c'mon over.

And anyone that is surprised that this isn't limited to just VW shouldn't be. Take a close look at who manufacturers the ECU's most commonly used in European autos...if you think this was strictly an internal VW R&D decision/execution? I have a pristine 2012 Golf TDI to sell you that totally meets all EPA emissions regulations.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> You can argue this all you want, but your words are meaningless. The world governments are taking this dead serious, even if you're not. Why? Because your opinion doesn't mean anything and scientific fact does, hence why world governments take emissions of all kinds seriously.


show me one post i've made where i have denied it's impact or scientific validity. this is a big issue, but people assigning numbers of deaths to what VW has done is ridiculous. there is absolutely no way to know or prove any fatalities because of this.

more importantly, show me a scientifically backed study of VW's emissions related to increased fatalities. i'll wait.

unless you've been living in a cage, all internal combustion engined cars emit toxic gases. if you want to be on the boat of associating VW to increased deaths, you can't leave them all out of consideration. everything that has an internal combustion engine contributes to pollution that is associated with an increased risk of cause fatalities. are we going to assign probabilities, likelihood, and statistical variables to all of them? or is this only because people are upset that VW got caught lying about how big their drop in the bucket was supposed to be?


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Chilcoot said:


> In the modern world, a person can make a good living as an actuary.
> 
> _An actuary is a business professional who analyzes the financial consequences of risk. Actuaries use mathematics, statistics and financial theory to study uncertain future events, especially those of concern to insurance and pension programs. They evaluate the likelihood of those events, design creative ways to reduce the likelihood and decrease the impact of adverse events that actually do occur.
> 
> ...


this sounds less like something a person would do to associate NOx emissions to extra fatalities, and more like something GM used to determine whether or not fixing their ignition switches was financially a good idea.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> *it does not kill people unless they're huffing the tailpipe like a college kid and his homemade bong.* it is a pollutant, and it does cause harm, but it is not *immediately* fatal unless massive amounts are present.


Cancer doesn't immediately kill you either. Would you care for some cancer? Can I interest you in some HIV? Won't kill you immediately after all. How about some drinking water laced with heavy metal and chemical runoff? Sounds yummy, right? Won't kill you...immediately. :banghead:

Pollution is BAD. Ideally no car would emit pollution. THAT is the goal. Why are some many people so freakin' stupid? Seriously. Do you even think before you form an opinion? :screwy:

Some of these posts are perfect migraine triggers.


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

GoHomeBroke said:


> show me one post i've made where i have denied it's impact or scientific validity. this is a big issue, but people assigning numbers of deaths to what VW has done is ridiculous. there is absolutely no way to * (A) know* or prove any fatalities because of this.
> 
> more importantly, *(B) show me a scientifically backed study of VW's emissions related to increased fatalities*. i'll wait.


A) This is where you are wrong. You are starting to sound similar to an evolution denier simply because no one saw a fish crawl out of the ocean.

B) You'll be waiting for a while. Stuff like this takes time. And this story broke, what, two days ago?


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

DJMRDARK said:


> Cancer doesn't immediately kill you either. Would you care for some cancer? Can I interest you in some HIV? Won't kill you immediately after all. How about some drinking water laced with heavy metal and chemical runoff? Sounds yummy, right? Won't kill you...immediately. :banghead:
> 
> Pollution is BAD. Ideally no car would emit pollution. THAT is the goal. Why are some many people so freakin' stupid? Seriously. Do you even think before you form an opinion? :screwy:
> 
> Some of these posts are perfect migraine triggers.


is there a point, or question, in this rambling? or are you just throwing your two cents on to the pile?


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

GoHomeBroke said:


> unless you've been living in a cage, all internal combustion engined cars emit toxic gases. if you want to be on the boat of associating VW to increased deaths, you can't leave them all out of consideration. everything that has an internal combustion engine contributes to pollution that is associated with an increased risk of cause fatalities. are we going to assign probabilities, likelihood, and statistical variables to all of them? or is this only because people are upset that VW got caught lying about how big their drop in the bucket was supposed to be?


The other thread is about the _increased_ deaths that the extra emissions are responsible for. Every ICE automobile puts out stuff that kills people. We know that. But we attempt to mitigate that with rules about how much of the deadly materials cars can output. That thread is about the _extra _ pollutants and deaths caused by VW knowing deciding to cheat the system up front.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

GoHomeBroke said:


> is there a point, or question, in this rambling? or are you just throwing your two cents on to the pile?


He's upset because all of your arguments contradict what thousands of scientists around the world are telling us is true.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Smigelski said:


> A) This is where you are wrong. You are starting to sound similar to an evolution denier simply because no one saw a fish crawl out of the ocean.
> 
> B) You'll be waiting for a while. Stuff like this takes time. And this story broke, what, two days ago?


so you're saying that there will eventually be scientifically conclusive data that empirically proves VW is responsible for X amount of extra deaths per year that will not have otherwise occurred without their falsifying emissions data on affected models? mind you, there will be no margin of error to connect them to these deaths. you're saying we will have irrefutable proof of VW being 100% responsible for X amount of extra deaths a year? :laugh: :thumbup: i'd love to see this.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> is there a point, or question, in this rambling? or are you just throwing your two cents on to the pile?


I'm demonstrating the obvious flaws in your views regarding pollution. Sorry if this simple illustration went over your head.

Now can I get that cancer for you now? Won't kill you immediately.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> He's upset because all of your arguments contradict what thousands of scientists around the world are telling us is true.


oh, so there is scientific data supporting the notion that VW has killed people with this? you got the link so i can review it? cause so far, all i've found is journalists and commenters on a forum using ballpark statistics, roundabout numbers, and vague facts about NOx emissions to say it.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> He's upset because all of your arguments contradict what thousands of scientists around the world are telling us is true.


And I have no tolerance for dumb chit. :laugh:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

DJMRDARK said:


> I'm demonstrating the obvious flaws in your views regarding pollution. Sorry if this simple illustration went over your head.
> 
> Now can I get that cancer for you now? Won't kill you immediately.


:facepalm:

maybe you need to read back a few pages. i've agreed that their contributing to the pollution is bad. i've agreed that they need to be punished. and i've agreed that pollution is a big issue. what i haven't agreed with is the issue is on par with or worse than what GM did. my views on pollution are no different than anyone arguing against me. my views on how VW needs to be punished is. get it now?


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

GoHomeBroke said:


> :facepalm:
> 
> maybe you need to read back a few pages. i've agreed that their contributing to the pollution is bad. i've agreed that they need to be punished. and i've agreed that pollution is a big issue. what i haven't agreed with is the issue is on par with or worse than what GM did. my views on pollution are no different than anyone arguing against me. my views on how VW needs to be punished is. get it now?


Dude, stop posting, the drive-thru's backing up. :thumbup:


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

Cutandthrust said:


> I was just browsing my Facebook feed, and apparently VW is not alone.


Man, and here I was mocking Auto BILD for being barely above the level of Jalopnik as far as a valid source of anything goes :what:


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

GoHomeBroke said:


> oh, so there is scientific data supporting the notion that VW has killed people with this? you got the link so i can review it? cause so far, all i've found is journalists and commenters on a forum using ballpark statistics, roundabout numbers, and vague facts about NOx emissions to say it.


Nobody is being *directly* killed because of this. You can't point to a specific Jetta and say, "That Jetta killed so-and-so,". The point is that NOx is deadly. This is a scientific fact. VW's cars produced far more NOx than they should've been producing, thus contributing heavily to airborne pollution, which, obviously, kills people. 

I guess if you don't get what we're all saying here, you never will.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Dude, stop posting, the drive-thru's backing up. :thumbup:


way to dodge the fact that in one ****ing statement i shut you up. :thumbup::laugh:

i'm not knocking the science behind pollution and how it affects our environment and health you dense ****bag. i'm saying there's no way to legally tie VW to any extra death per year and that this VW **** isn't anywhere near as bad as what GM did. learn how to ****ing read.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

GoHomeBroke said:


> what i haven't agreed with is the issue is on par with or worse than what GM did.


Well, no, in fairness here's what you wrote that got my attention:



GoHomeBroke said:


> should they be punished more severely than companies who have killed people? no.


We know enough about the science of air pollution and its impact on human health to know FOR CERTAIN that more than zero of the deaths in the past seven years (since the VW engines now being scrutinized hit US roads in 2008) are fairly attributable to VW.

VW's fraud killed. That you have chosen to deny that hardly renders that fact undeniable.

I don't join the guy who implied you're stupid. But I do think you've built yourself a nice home on Denial Island.

EDIT TO ADD: You're averaging almost 6 posts a day here since you signed up almost a year ago. Might be time for a little quality control.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

GoHomeBroke said:


> way to dodge the fact that in one ****ing statement i shut you up. :thumbup::laugh:
> 
> i'm not knocking the science behind pollution and how it affects our environment and health you dense ****bag. i'm saying there's no way to legally tie VW to any extra death per year and that this VW **** isn't anywhere near as bad as what GM did. learn how to ****ing read.


Point out that "one ****ing statement" please. I thought you were taking my order, I had no idea we were debating anything. :thumbup:

p.s. no cheese on that


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> :facepalm:
> 
> maybe you need to read back a few pages. i've agreed that their contributing to the pollution is bad. i've agreed that they need to be punished. and i've agreed that pollution is a big issue. what i haven't agreed with is the issue is on par with or worse than what GM did. my views on pollution are no different than anyone arguing against me. my views on how VW needs to be punished is. get it now?


There is big difference.

You wrote:



> it does not kill people unless they're huffing the tailpipe like a college kid and his homemade bong. it is a pollutant, and it does cause harm, but it is not immediately fatal unless massive amounts are present.


In response to:



> But NOx DOES kill people.


You are saying that because someone doesn't immediately die from a pollutant that its no big deal. This is simply asinine thinking. Pollution acts in aggregate over time to kill you unless it's an extreme situation such as a smoke-induced death from a fire and the gas chamber. This is why smoking cigarettes kills a person. Not immediately, but it kills them. Car exhaust is the largest contributor to the high number of asthma and other lung disorders observed in urban settings compared to rural ones. Lead and mercury contamination may not occur in high enough quantities to immediately kill you, but it certainly occurs in high enough amounts to trigger chronic illness which lead directly to death or birth defects. 

THIS Is why everyone is correcting you. That you cannot see this means you are either willfully ignorant or outright stupid.

On a sidenote - when did so many people stop understanding what the EPA does and WHY clean air and water is important????? That's a serious question. I find it scary that so many people don't get it.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Point out that "one ****ing statement" please. I thought you were taking my order, I had no idea we were debating anything. :thumbup:
> 
> p.s. no cheese on that


this one:



GoHomeBroke said:


> :facepalm:
> 
> maybe you need to read back a few pages. *i've agreed that their contributing to the pollution is bad. i've agreed that they need to be punished. and i've agreed that pollution is a big issue.* what i haven't agreed with is the issue is on par with or worse than what GM did. *my views on pollution are no different than anyone arguing against me.* my views on how VW needs to be punished is. get it now?


and that's the truth. _with some cheese on it._

now we can be friends again.


----------



## oldster1 (Oct 24, 2011)

DJMRDARK said:


> On a sidenote - when did so many people stop understanding what the EPA does and WHY clean air and water is important????? That's a serious question. I find it scary that so many people don't get it.


:thumbup:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

DJMRDARK said:


> There is big difference.
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> ...





> You are saying that because someone doesn't immediately die from a pollutant that its no big deal.


guess i'm gonna have to spell it out for you.

VW lied about their diesel emissions. that's bad.
VW's diesel emissions was incredibly higher than they are legally allowed to be. that's really bad.
diesel emissions contribute to health issues that can possibly kill people of poor health. that's really really bad. 

my entire argument, if it ever had a point, is this: VW lying about their emissions is something that needs to have legal repercussions. they must be punished. pollution is a serious and credible issue that has long lasting and far reaching consequences. it's an issue we need to keep in check, otherwise we doom future generations to an unlivable planet. *making up statistics and supposing arguments about what deaths may or may not happen because of this issue is distracting from the actual situation. all it will take is one person believing this to make it 10x worse and drag on 10x longer. these are not facts. this is not evidence. it is complete and total hogwash that needs to go away before people confuse it with scientifically proven data. VW can not be held responsible for X amount of extra deaths a year. instead of focusing on this crap, let's focus on what they have done and what can be proven.*

they polluted more than legally allowed. they lied about it. this is what can be proven. don't let non-scientific probabilities get in the way of that.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> they polluted more than legally allowed. they lied about it. this is what can be proven. *don't let non-scientific probabilities get in the way of that*.


But there are scientific studies which have looked at particulate and other car related pollutants which tracked disease rates and types in given areas. Likewise there are numerous studies which also assign economic impact of said diseases in given areas. As there are also studies on productivity levels affected by disease rates and such. So while there is currently not a specific assessment right now regarding, do understand that this will be quantified over the years to come, as these studies really do take years to complete.

The point being there is scientifically backed data which does tell us how and where pollution affects society at every level. They don't just sit around making up numbers to scare people. They study it for years and include monetary considerations so that they can justify mitigations to congress and the like.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

GoHomeBroke said:


> this one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, that "argument" shut nobody down. You're simply missing the point and justifying, shifting blame and/or minimizing. Quite the common tactic amongst growing teens confronted with their wrongdoings. :thumbup:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

DJMRDARK said:


> *But there are scientific studies which have looked at particulate and other car related pollutants which tracked disease rates and types in given areas.* Likewise there are numerous studies which also assign economic impact of said diseases in given areas. As there are also studies on productivity levels affected by disease rates and such. So while there is currently not a specific assessment right now regarding, do understand that this will be quantified over the years to come, as these studies really do take years to complete.
> 
> The point being there is scientifically backed data which does tell us how and where pollution affects society at every level. They don't just sit around making up numbers to scare people. They study it for years and include monetary considerations so that they can justify mitigations to congress and the like.


for the love of God. no ****, sherlock. i'm saying there's no way to say "these people died because of the emissions scandal from VW". you can't say that any of the extra deaths per year are specifically because of VW. the "studies" done so far that are arguing that VW is responsible for them *weren't scientifically reviewed studies*. journalists and TCL members are not qualified to make those studies.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> anod how does that point out how many deaths are specifically because of VW's emissions?


Reread my post at half speed. Pause and then do it again. If it still alludes you there is no hope for you.

Sigh...I read your posts. I observe your username. You will go far in life.


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)




----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> *making up statistics and supposing arguments about what deaths may or may not happen because of this issue is distracting from the actual situation. all it will take is one person believing this to make it 10x worse and drag on 10x longer. these are not facts. this is not evidence. it is complete and total hogwash that needs to go away before people confuse it with scientifically proven data. VW can not be held responsible for X amount of extra deaths a year. instead of focusing on this crap, let's focus on what they have done and what can be proven.*


You do realize we have entire industries dedicated to "making up" numbers for us with strategic planning or any role that needs to look forward rather than at right now or the past. 

Question: Let's say Exxon Mobile wants to know what % of crude oil will be needed to refine into diesel for the year 2020. Exxon Mobile doesn't have a crystal ball so they are either internally or with an outside source going to have to make an educated guess by looking at current consumption patters then make a prediction with factors like theoretical fuel economy of diesel vehicles in 2020. Exxon Mobile will also have to factor in emissions laws of 2020 and what impact that might have on future 2020 diesel vehicles. A significant portion of all this is highly educated guesswork using statistics and formulas. 

You can't tell the entire strategic planning industry that it's all hogwash without proven scientific results. 

None of these pollution figure are made up out of thin air and are estimated using similar math.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

ClownCar said:


>


:laugh:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

DJMRDARK said:


> Reread my post at half speed. Pause and then do it again. If it still alludes you there is no hope for you.
> 
> Sigh...I read your posts. I observe your username. You will go far in life.





DJMRDARK said:


> But there are scientific studies which have looked at particulate and other car related pollutants which tracked disease rates and types in given areas. Likewise there are numerous studies which also assign economic impact of said diseases in given areas. As there are also studies on productivity levels affected by disease rates and such. So while there is currently not a specific assessment right now regarding, do understand that this will be quantified over the years to come, as these studies really do take years to complete.
> 
> The point being there is scientifically backed data which does tell us how and where pollution affects society at every level. They don't just sit around making up numbers to scare people. They study it for years and include monetary considerations so that they can justify mitigations to congress and the like.





> But there are scientific studies which have looked at particulate and other car related pollutants which tracked disease rates and types in given areas.


yes. none of them specifically relate any of those disease rates or types to VW, though. :beer:


> Likewise there are numerous studies which also assign economic impact of said diseases in given areas.


of course there's an economic impact. still waiting for something that points to VW as being responsible for X amount of deaths.


> As there are also studies on productivity levels affected by disease rates and such.


this sentence is kind of superfluous when you've already stated there's an economic impact. still nothing pointing at VW.


> So while there is currently not a specific assessment right now regarding, do understand that this will be quantified over the years to come, as these studies really do take years to complete.


regarding what? oh, you mean there is no specific assessment regarding VW being responsible for X amount of deaths? you mean all of the rabble rousing about how VW has added X amount of deaths per year because of this is nothing but bull****? so i was right all along? 

there is no way to prove VW is responsible for X amount of extra deaths. go ahead, you can say it. 

"well there may be a way someday" too bad that's not gonna help with what's going on right now. :wave:


----------



## bzcat (Nov 26, 2001)

So this is how you guys going to this thread locked before reaching page 80?


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

2.0T_Convert said:


> You do realize we have entire industries dedicated to "making up" numbers for us with strategic planning or any role that needs to look forward rather than at right now or the past.


yes. we have entire industries filled with *people who have spent their entire lives studying subjects related to pollution and the effects it has on the environment and the human body.* when those people start putting out information that specifically details how many deaths are directly related to VW and the diesel emissions scandal, it will be taken seriously. *never, in the history of ever, has the argument "Well some guy on the internet said it" been taken seriously. and i'm not gonna be the one to start it.*

you want me to take the word of someone on vwvortex about this? ain't happening. :laugh:


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> yes. none of them specifically relate any of those....












Hold up! Imma let you finish....










I just wanna say to you and everybody out there that Google is your friend! You can use that chit to pull up all kinds of studies to see what we are telling you. 










AND...HOLD UP...AND you can even see how they get and apply their data. THAT chit is DOPE. And Beyonce shoulda got album of the year!










What?



(Page 80 achieved.)


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

DJMRDARK said:


> Hold up! Imma let you finish....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


equating yourself to being like Kanye doesn't help your side of the argument. :laugh:

and of those studies, how many can empirically prove VW is responsible for X amount of extra deaths a year? i'm still waiting for that answer here.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

is this seriously that hard of a concept to grasp? pollution can be directly related to health issues and even to fatalities. it's effects can be measured. not one shred of those studies is capable of directly tying one automotive company or another to any amount of deaths. it can be postulated and conjectured, but it can not be scientifically or legally proven that XX auto group is 100% responsible for the deaths of XX amount of people.


----------



## jspirate (Jan 15, 2011)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Nobody is being *directly* killed because of this. You can't point to a specific Jetta and say, "That Jetta killed so-and-so,". The point is that NOx is deadly. This is a scientific fact. VW's cars produced far more NOx than they should've been producing, thus contributing heavily to airborne pollution, which, *obviously*, kills people.
> 
> I guess if you don't get what we're all saying here, you never will.


Haha, obviously! This is why I visit the forums. Its solid use of words that prove so much... :laugh:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Nobody is being *directly* killed because of this. You can't point to a specific Jetta and say, "That Jetta killed so-and-so,". The point is that NOx is deadly. This is a scientific fact. VW's cars produced far more NOx than they should've been producing, thus contributing heavily to airborne pollution, which, obviously, kills people.
> 
> I guess if you don't get what we're all saying here, you never will.


i've agreed to these facts. numerous times. i still agree to them. that hasn't changed. and it never will. the point some people have been arguing seems to be that i don't believe NOx is deadly. which i do. NOx is deadly.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> yes. we have entire industries filled with *people who have spent their entire lives studying subjects related to pollution and the effects it has on the environment and the human body.* when those people start putting out information that specifically details how many deaths are directly related to VW and the diesel emissions scandal, it will be taken seriously. *never, in the history of ever, has the argument "Well some guy on the internet said it" been taken seriously. and i'm not gonna be the one to start it.*
> 
> you want me to take the word of someone on vwvortex about this? ain't happening. :laugh:


Then why don't you just look up the source of any of these numbers 

The ocean is wet.

I just posted that on the internet.

It must not be true because some guy posted on the internet.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Then why don't you just look up the source of any of these numbers
> 
> The ocean is wet.
> 
> ...


i have looked up the source to these numbers. and not a single one points to XX amount of deaths and says "this company is directly responsible for these deaths" or "that company is responsible for those deaths". 

i have, however, found two topics discussing VW being directly related to adding XX amount of deaths per year. one was a thread started on VWVortex. the other was a journalist who specified "this is not a peer reviewed scientific study, this is just back of the envelope math". notice how neither of those are capable of being used to validate anyone arguing that VW is responsible for people dying?


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

GoHomeBroke said:


> equating yourself to being like Kanye doesn't help your side of the argument. :laugh:
> 
> and of those studies, how many can empirically prove VW is responsible for X amount of extra deaths a year? i'm still waiting for that answer here.


"You keep using that word [empirical]. I do not think it means what you think it means."

No one is going to run an empirical test to prove or dispprove the theory that VWs excess emissions contributed to incrementally more deaths than otherwise if they had not lied and put dirtier cars on the roads. So you can keep waiting.

For one, such an "empirical" test as you are demanding would be unethical. You would have to take one population and let them be subjected to normal pollution and then take a similar population where they would also be subjected to a prescribed portion of VWs excess emissions. Your empirical evidence is death rates in both populations and the theory is proven or disproven if you have a significantly meaningful difference in death rates for each population. You may need a relatively large population to be ale to detect a difference, at least 10,000 people in each group.

Second, and thankfully, the above controlled, empirical study is not necessary because with EXTRAPOLATION, validated actuarial MODELS and epidemiologic DATA you can rather easily estimate the increased deaths for a specific increase in excess emissions. Which Turbio! has done in his recent, specific thread, but which you reject (with no scientific basis for doing so).

See also: empirical data/evidence, scientific method, actuarial science, and test for equal means (t-test).


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

GoHomeBroke said:


> and of those studies, how many can empirically prove VW is responsible for X amount of extra deaths a year? i'm still waiting for that answer here.


You're being obtuse for the sake of a silly argument - implies ignorance at best.

>8^)
ER


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

This thread illustrates another of the many reasons I'm glad this republic incorporates so many democratic ideals.

Our system can accommodate a sizeable number of aggressively obstinate and purposefully ignorant people and function just fine, so long as most of its people are bright and thoughtful and show up on election day to outnumber the dolts.

I'm done caring enough about what this fellow citizen thinks to help him any further. Believe that VW's fraud didn't kill anyone, I don't care.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Waterfan said:


> "You keep using that word [empirical]. I do not think it means what you think it means."
> 
> No one is going to run an empirical test to prove or dispprove the theory that VWs excess emissions contributed to incrementally more deaths than otherwise if they had not lied and put dirtier cars on the roads. So you can keep waiting.
> 
> ...


empirical - adj. 
provable or verifiable by experience or experiment. 

you used a Princess Bride quote when it wasn't necessary. you should be ashamed.


if no one is going to run a test that can prove VW is responsible for XX amount of extra deaths, then why is it such an arguing point for some people here? why was it even brought up or discussed in the first place? and entire thread was created around the concept of VW being responsible for extra deaths a year, but despite it not being possible to prove it people have vehemently defended the logic that they are responsible without a single shred of actual scientific evidence to back it up. 
i've read his thread. and the only thing that needs to be said in regards to it is: correlation is not causation. and while he references factual numbers, he's not exactly an authoritative figure in any of the fields that make such claims. they're unsubstantiated at best.

more importantly, no offense to Turbio, he's just "some guy on the internet" at this point. if a noted scientist puts an article in a peer reviewed journal stating exactly what he's stating, i'll be more inclined to take it seriously.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Chilcoot said:


> I'm done caring enough about what this fellow citizen thinks to help him any further.


i admire your restraint. too bad i can't say the same about your attempts at "helping" me.


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

GoHomeBroke said:


> empirical - adj.
> provable or verifiable by experience or experiment.
> 
> you used a Princess Bride quote when it wasn't necessary. you should be ashamed.
> ...


Wow...


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Peloton25 said:


> You're being obtuse for the sake of a silly argument - implies ignorance at best.
> 
> >8^)
> ER


i agree that this is a silly argument. but i'm not being obtuse for anything. people are accepting of the idea that VW has increased the number of deaths per year and are allowing it to influence their opinion of how their severe VW's punishment should be. whereas, i'm not accepting of that idea, and only letting what has been proven so far influence my opinion of how severe their punishment should be, as well as factoring in the severity of punishments for other car companies when they were caught doing something illegal.


----------



## PCs & Petroleum (Oct 8, 2007)

When everyone disagrees with you, and continuously tries to prove you wrong (In this case he actually is wrong), you're either a genius, on the cusp of setting a new trend, enacting a new idea or way of thinking, or changing the world.... or you're wrong. 

So either GoHomeBroke thinks he's the next Elon Musk, or he's aggressively ignorant. 

It's the latter, but sometimes it's fun to suppose.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

ColinAndrews said:


> When everyone disagrees with you, and continuously tries to prove you wrong (In this case he actually is wrong), you're either a genius, on the cusp of setting a new trend, enacting a new idea or way of thinking, or changing the world.... or you're wrong.
> 
> So either GoHomeBroke thinks he's the next Elon Musk, or he's aggressively ignorant.
> 
> It's the latter, but sometimes it's fun to suppose.


i'm not the next Elon Musk. i'm just not big on accepting correlation as causation. pollution is bad for our health and can be fatal. VW put out more pollution than they are legally allowed to. that doesn't equal VW being responsible for people getting sick or dying.


----------



## Tuono5740 (Nov 23, 2011)




----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

VW cheated on their in-house crash testing as well


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> i'm not the next Elon Musk. i'm just not big on accepting correlation as causation. pollution is bad for our health and can be fatal. VW put out more pollution than they are legally allowed to. that doesn't equal VW being responsible for people getting sick or dying.


So they did something that released excess pollutants that are bad for health and can be fatal, but they're not responsible for any proportion of pollution related morbidity or mortality. Your logic is self-refuting.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

GoHomeBroke said:


> i'm not the next Elon Musk. i'm just not big on accepting correlation as causation. pollution is bad for our health and can be fatal. VW put out more pollution than they are legally allowed to. that doesn't equal VW being responsible for people getting sick or dying.


It's only accepting correlation as causation if there isn't enough of a sample or series of samples to set trends that can be proven mathematically. This is well known, documented, studied and provable.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

VW seems to have a fix already applied or built into the 2016 models according to this article:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20150924/us--venting_about_volkswagen-3dec04083f.html



> LOS ANGELES (AP) — Bob Rand bought his Volkswagen Passat last year for its clean emissions and high gas mileage. He liked the car so much he convinced his son and a friend to buy one, too.
> 
> Now, as Volkswagen comes clean about rigging diesel emissions to pass U.S. tests, Rand is desperately trying to sell the fully loaded model with white leather seats for $10,000 below what he paid. His sole bite has been from a man who offered $7,500 on speculation that he could resell it in Mexico.
> 
> ...


----------



## Vuck Folkswagen (Oct 30, 2010)




----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

Air and water do mix said:


> It's only accepting correlation as causation if there isn't enough of a sample or series of samples to set trends that can be proven mathematically. This is well known, documented, studied and provable.


I'm going to go ahead and say he is rejecting this reasonable standard of proof/methodology due to ulterior motives (and perhaps not consciously. "Depths of Denial" and all that jazz).


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

spockcat said:


> VW seems to have a fix already applied or built into the 2016 models according to this article:
> 
> http://apnews.myway.com/article/20150924/us--venting_about_volkswagen-3dec04083f.html


Yeah is that why all TDI models have disappeared from VW's home page?


----------



## VadGTI (Feb 24, 2000)

I need to find this Bob Rand idiot and purchase his nearly-new Passat TDI for $10k under KBB.


----------



## jddaigle (May 30, 2003)

Kar98 said:


> Yeah is that why all TDI models have disappeared from VW's home page?


EPA still needs to approve the updates before they can be sold in the US.

On a side note, WTF is up with those people quoted who now "need" a fix next week or are willing to take a $10,000 bath to get rid of a car RIGHT NOW? Its emissions are not any more or less dirty than they were last Wednesday. Just keep driving the thing, get the update, and if you can't live with the results _then_ sell it.

Jebus Fracking Cripes.


----------



## METRIC SHOP (Aug 2, 2013)

CruznMalibu said:


> Just like BO didn’t care what was emailed on Hillary’s servers, I’m pretty sure he doesn’t know or care what vehicles CARB is researching.
> The NYT reference is for the sheep so they can say, “See look BO is a crusader for the environment… blah, blah, blah”.



THIS


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

spockcat said:


> VW seems to have a fix already applied or built into the 2016 models according to this article:
> 
> http://apnews.myway.com/article/20150924/us--venting_about_volkswagen-3dec04083f.html


Doesn't necessarily matter if the EPA is playing their only card by refusing to issue them certification until they have sorted out the ones that date back to 2009.

>8^)
ER


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

Tuono5740 said:


>


----------



## METRIC SHOP (Aug 2, 2013)

WinterisComing said:


> And he doesn't seem happy


BRILLIANT!:laugh:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

jddaigle said:


> EPA still needs to approve the updates before they can be sold in the US.
> 
> On a side note, WTF is up with those people quoted who now "need" a fix next week or are willing to take a $10,000 bath to get rid of a car RIGHT NOW? Its emissions are not any more or less dirty than they were last Wednesday. Just keep driving the thing, get the update, and if you can't live with the results _then_ sell it.
> 
> Jebus Fracking Cripes.


This! My son asked me about his 2010 JSW TDI this week. I told him to keep driving and wait and see how VW handles it. It isn't like the Takata airbag issue where the airbag could kill you if you have an accident. Fuel it. Drive it. Enjoy it. Dumping one of these now at a big loss would be a big mistake.


----------



## METRIC SHOP (Aug 2, 2013)

dawsino said:


> Good words.


this


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

Turbio! said:


> So they did something that released excess pollutants that are bad for health and can be fatal, but they're not responsible for any proportion of pollution related morbidity or mortality. Your logic is self-refuting.


Depending on what study you cite, the counter logic simply projects VW diesel vehicles upon the claimed generic statistics, spread across the same conditions and variables, without isolating the effected VW's to market, location, et al. You're relying on an "all things being equal" assumption, which is rather brash to do if libellously purporting someone/some group to be murderers.

The "proportion" of VW's responsibility can only be estimated, but never proven nor observed. Hence why we so often see lies, d#mn lies, and statistics in studies. They can easily be molded to fit one's intent, and that in itself requires ample amounts of skepticism to keep men honest.

Environmental science, among others, seems to be a notable modern sector that repeatably appears allergic to skepticism these days, however...


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

jddaigle said:


> WTF is up with those people quoted who now "need" a fix next week or are willing to take a $10,000 bath to get rid of a car RIGHT NOW? Its emissions are not any more or less dirty than they were last Wednesday. Just keep driving the thing, get the update, and if you can't live with the results _then_ sell it.


Dude.. this diesel is dirty thing is seriously hurting their street cred.


----------



## wolfcastle (Jul 28, 2006)

I'll probably get flamed for this, but if it were my TDI i would wait and do the VW software reflash or whatever. Then, Go and get a flash tune that can alternate between a stock and performance mode for when I'd have to do emissions


----------



## jspirate (Jan 15, 2011)

I need some assistance... I have a buddy that is a defense attorney and I have him on retainer related to potential deaths associated with the emissions from a 2014 Tacoma. Is there an expert on this tread that can point my lawyer towards the information that outlines how many people are typically killed by the emissions of a 2014 Tacoma. Its the 2.4L normally aspirated engine. The only mods the truck has is tints and painted door handles.


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

wolfcastle said:


> I'll probably get flamed for this, but if it were my TDI i would wait and do the VW software reflash or whatever. Then, Go and get a flash tune that can alternate between a stock and performance mode for when I'd have to do emissions


In other words, the previous OEM tune. :laugh:


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

jp71624 said:


> Environmental science, among others, seems to be a notable modern sector that repeatably appears allergic to skepticism these days, however...


Because it's a damn science. It's not some political issue that's up for debate. 

And unless you yourself have extensively studied the issue at hand, you don't get to call bull****. The people who have made environmental science their life study know more than you and me put together. I think it would be wise to trust what they say.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Because it's a damn science. It's not some political issue that's up for debate.
> 
> And unless you yourself have extensively studied the issue at hand, you don't get to call bull****. The people who have made environmental science their life study know more than you and me put together. I think it would be wise to trust what they say.


Conservatives have attacked and challenged the work of anthropologists, sociologists, psychiatrists, psychologists, evolutionary biologists, climate scientists, physicists, doctors, the GAO...and all while being experts in none of those fields. The way I see computer scientists and rocket scientists are next! Soon we'll have mouth breathers in TCL telling SpaceX scientists they don't know how to build rockets and that building rockets and doing that damn space-stuff is a waste of their hard earned tax money! Dabnabbit. They don't trust those overly educated liberals, because if you know more than they do you can't possibly know what you are talking about. And if you are overly educated you MUST be a liberal and gay and hate God and freedom. They don't trust your data because they didn't see you do your fancy calculations, which they don't trust in the first place.:screwy: This is their America after all. Ain't it great? That damn evil EPA. Keep gub'ment out of our lives!!!! But don't touch my social security, why is my welfare check late?!?! :laugh:


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

DJMRDARK said:


> Conservatives have attacked and challenged the work of anthropologists, sociologists, psychiatrists, psychologists, evolutionary biologists, climate scientists, physicists, doctors, the GAO...and all while being experts in none of those fields. The way I see computer scientists and rocket scientists are next! Soon we'll have mouth breathers in TCL telling SpaceX scientists they don't know how to build rockets and that building rockets and doing that damn space-stuff is a waste of their hard earned tax money! Dabnabbit. They don't trust those overly educated liberals, because if you know more than they do you can't possibly know what you are talking about. And if you are overly educated you MUST be a liberal and gay and hate God and freedom. They don't trust your data because they didn't see you do your fancy calculations, which they don't trust in the first place.:screwy: This is their America after all. Ain't it great? That damn evil EPA. Keep gub'ment out of our lives!!!! But don't touch my social security, why is my welfare check late?!?! :laugh:


I agree with all of this and am still a Republican, so let's not go there. :thumbup:


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> I agree with all of this and am still a Republican, so let's not go there. :thumbup:


All conservatives are not Republicans and all Republicans aren't conservatives. An 80's Regan Republican would fit in with moderate Democrats today for example. That's why I didn't speak to Republicans. I for one agree with certain things from each party, which I suspect is true of most Americans. This current strain of conservatism is...different.:laugh:

Also I'm not really trying to be political, again why I did not speak to parties. But on the topic of science and government denial, which brings us back to this thread and the denial of the EPA's importance...that is the work of only conservatives.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

DJMRDARK said:


> All conservatives are not Republicans and all Republicans aren't conservatives. An 80's Regan Republican would fit in with moderate Democrats today for example. That's why I didn't speak to Republicans. I for one agree with certain things from each party, which I suspect is true of most Americans. This current strain of conservatism is...different.:laugh:
> 
> Also I'm not really trying to be political, again why I did not speak to parties. But on the topic of science and government denial, which brings us back to this thread and the denial of the EPA's importance...that is the work of only conservatives.


Cool, agreed on all fronts. :thumbup:


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

*For the record, a good summary of the scandal*

http://www.vox.com/2015/9/21/9365667/volkswagen-clean-diesel-recall-passenger-cars


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

DJMRDARK said:


> Also I'm not really trying to be political, again why I did not speak to parties. But on the topic of science and government denial, which brings us back to this thread and the denial of the EPA's importance...that is the work of only conservatives.


I'd suggest the term "reactionaries." The tendency to react with fear and rage at the prospect of upsets to the status quo is not an inherently conservative trait, and I respect conservatism as a political orientation too much to sully it by roping in the cloud-yellers. 



jp71624 said:


> Environmental science, among others, seems to be a notable modern sector that repeatably appears allergic to skepticism these days, however...


I don't dignify the reaction various scientific fields elicit from reactionaries with the term "skepticism." Your attitude is rooted in ideology rather that teleology, and in ignorance rather than working expertise.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Reactionaries it is. :beer:


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

DJMRDARK said:


> Reactionaries it is. :beer:


That's good.


----------



## BeBop! (Jun 18, 2009)

Just came back to read the comments. Still a hot mess of political arguments/speculation. As someone already mentioned this thread is as dirty as the dieselgate scandal. Carry on with your useless banter. :thumbup:


----------



## Cole Orlling (Mar 18, 2015)

DJMRDARK said:


> Conservatives have attacked and challenged the work of anthropologists, sociologists, psychiatrists, psychologists, evolutionary biologists, climate scientists, physicists, doctors, the GAO...and all while being experts in none of those fields. The way I see computer scientists and rocket scientists are next! Soon we'll have mouth breathers in TCL telling SpaceX scientists they don't know how to build rockets and that building rockets and doing that damn space-stuff is a waste of their hard earned tax money! Dabnabbit. They don't trust those overly educated liberals, because if you know more than they do you can't possibly know what you are talking about. And if you are overly educated you MUST be a liberal and gay and hate God and freedom. They don't trust your data because they didn't see you do your fancy calculations, which they don't trust in the first place.:screwy: This is their America after all. Ain't it great? That damn evil EPA. Keep gub'ment out of our lives!!!! But don't touch my social security, why is my welfare check late?!?! :laugh:




Those damn conservatives. They probably lie on internet forums about the cars that they own too. Oh, wait.....


----------



## RacerrRex (Nov 21, 2008)

Can anyone give me a brief cliffnotes summary on whats going on with this whole situation?


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

RacerrRex said:


> Can anyone give me a brief cliffnotes summary on whats going on with this whole situation?


This isn't exactly Cliff Notes, but if you can't get through this brief article than you probably don't care anyway. 

http://www.theguardian.com/business...wagen-emissions-scandal-explained-diesel-cars

>8^)
RE


----------



## RacerrRex (Nov 21, 2008)

Peloton25 said:


> This isn't exactly Cliff Notes, but if you can't get through this brief article than you probably don't care anyway.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/business...wagen-emissions-scandal-explained-diesel-cars
> 
> ...


Got it, thanks reynolds


----------



## LX289 (Jul 30, 2015)

I would buy one of these just because of the defeat device.
Around here emissions isn't a problem 
Who cares they need to worry about the coal fired power stations that we have around here not cars


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

RacerrRex said:


> Can anyone give me a brief cliffnotes summary on whats going on with this whole situation?


Here's a good summary from several pages back:


----------



## manol2 (Mar 8, 2010)

I just wanted to say, that I've been following this diesel scandal and it is really bad, and not unusual for VW - remember the bribing and hooker scandal from few years ago? Also the german government is involved again.

I'm slightly embarrassed driving my GTI, and my wife wants to even trade it - she's the primary driver of it. That is after buying five VW's in a row. 

Also filled up the old 300D with biodiesel today


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

manol2 said:


> I'm slightly embarrassed driving my GTI. My wife wants to trade it.



 :facepalm:


----------



## manol2 (Mar 8, 2010)

Hawk said:


> :facepalm:


Hey what can I say - it's loss of trust, and that affects me quite a bit.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

manol2 said:


> Also filled up the old 300D with biodiesel today


Do you realize how many people you kill a year with that outdated piece of junk?  *BABY KILLER*


----------



## manol2 (Mar 8, 2010)

Silly_me said:


> Do you realize how many people you kill a year with that outdated piece of junk?  *BABY KILLER*


Hey - I only drive it every other weekend.

What's with the German companies getting caught all the time. Siemens were in trouble few years back right? They are not very good in covering their tracks.


----------



## P-Body (Mar 18, 2007)

manol2 said:


> Hey - I only drive it every other weekend.
> 
> What's with the German companies getting caught all the time. Siemens were in trouble few years back right? They are not very good in covering their tracks.


They keep very organized and structured records of their malfeasance.


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

Went to my local VW dealer today. They are refusing to accept TDIs for trade ins.


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

RacerrRex said:


> Can anyone give me a brief cliffnotes summary on whats going on with this whole situation?


Every major news site has a cliff notes section on the scandal. 

But basically, it's getting worse. Numerous countries are launching investigations. Looks like there are criminal investigations that are popping up all over the world. Other manufacturers, BMW and Mercedes, are being investigated as well in Europe. EPA and Euro emissions tests are basically a joke. Diesels, other than commercial vehicles and heavy duty trucks, will probably be done forever. VW hired BP's defense team. TDI owners everywhere are upset. Dealerships are pissed. Some VW salespeople have been spotted in tears. TDI owners are waiting to find out what to do. TDI resale values have tanked. VW is tarnished. Their stock has dropped 30% and it's still going. Even BMW's stock has dropped on rumors alone. The general public doesn't understand that it's just diesel engines and are giving all VW owners a hard time. Some VW humpers keep comparing this to GM and Toyota even though it's apples to oranges. VW has committed flat out fraud. That should cover it for now without in depth details...


----------



## manol2 (Mar 8, 2010)

P-Body said:


> They keep very organized and structured records of their malfeasance.


That is correct - nobody had any paperwork on Stalin


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

[TheNewSmug] I feel good driving my clean-emissions 17.5MPG (City) MKV Rabbit gasser now. [/TheNewSmug]


----------



## manol2 (Mar 8, 2010)

I never been into the TDI craze, it's just a diesel engine. I always liked VW though. They had such a friendly reputation ( after WW2) - Bugs, Vans, Golfs, etc. In Europe the TDI was very well regarded back to the early 90's, and the Diesel VW's were well respected before that. Almost half the cars have a TDI badge on the back of them - Audi, Skoda, Seat. Also all the Bluemotion BS.

Now they pissed all the good will away. I think the European fall out will be bigger, than the one in the US.


----------



## gonzo08452 (Apr 17, 2006)

Makes you wonder if they cheated on something else. What if they did this on their petrol models.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

improvius said:


> Here's a good summary from several pages back:


And its still gold! Lol.


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

gonzo08452 said:


> Makes you wonder if they cheated on something else. What if they did this on their petrol models.


Different can of worms entirely - they wouldn't have needed to.

= = = = =

Caught this accounting of comments from Maximum Bob in another piece online:



> Robert Lutz, former Vice Chairman at General Motors was being interviewed live by CNBC on September 21, when the world woke up to the news of this scandal. Lutz stated that this vindicates the engineers at GM. He said before he left GM he was always asking the engineers about the low emissions from VW diesels, asking "If VW can do it, why can't we? And they would always say we don't know." Lutz stated that even back then GM engineers had a hard time believing VW" emissions ratings.


Makes you wonder why if there were serious discussions going on at top executive levels within other automakers like that why the skeptics were unable to reverse engineer and expose the cheating in all these years, or at least bring their concerns to the EPA for further investigations.

>8^)
ER


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

randy said:


> Went to my local VW dealer today. They are refusing to accept TDIs for trade ins.


That should not be surprising.


----------



## mr_e1974 (Jun 6, 2002)

I must be one of the few people that just doesn't care since I was never on, and never will be on, the diesel fanboy bus. Diesel fumes literally make me ill (sulfur sensitive) so I have my reasons to avoid being around diesel fumes.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

So will I be able to purchase a cheap TDI Sportwagen (Golf or Jetta) at the dealership now or nah?


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

.yuk. said:


> So will I be able to purchase a cheap TDI Sportwagen (Golf or Jetta) at the dealership now or nah?


Not sure if trolling, but no, you won't be able to buy one at a VW dealership. That's what a 'stop sell' dictates. Yes, that includes used.

Other dealerships/private sales? Sure. But the situation may mean that at some point you won't be able to register it for use on public roads and your purchase date may mean that you won't qualify for a potential upcoming buy-back program.

I was this close >< to buying one earlier this year. I really liked it.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

I wonder if this high ego emission scandal will prompt emission testing changes, or even a "road use" verification on all vehicles that the test emissions are similar to normal use.

We all know most vehicles are tuned (but the same tune for road use) to maximize the test results - like requiring almost flooring a vehicle to get a kick down or get "on boost".
I guess that's why lots of turbo gas vehicles get worse real world fuel economy.
Getting "on boost" is fun..... but the test doesn't care about fun.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

BRealistic said:


> I wonder if this high ego emission scandal will prompt emission testing changes, or even a "road use" verification on all vehicles that the test emissions are similar to normal use.
> 
> We all know most vehicles are tuned (but the same tune for road use) to maximize the test results - like requiring almost flooring a vehicle to get a kick down or get "on boost".
> I guess that's why lots of turbo gas vehicles get worse real world fuel economy.
> Getting "on boost" is fun..... but the test doesn't care about fun.


EPA just doesn't have the resources to conduct those tests. The automotive fuel economy and emissions group is one program office in Ohio; manpower and funding levels are such that they'd be pretty strapped to do emissions with on-road tests. For fuel economy, I think the best real world estimates will continue to come from Fuelly and similar sites. 

From a criteria emissions standpoint (not fuel economy) I'm not even sure it's actually necessary; the only engines at this point that really have trouble hitting Tier 2 Bin 5 are diesels. Most gassers easily beat those limits.


----------



## HASSELHOF (Feb 2, 2005)

Peloton25 said:


> Different can of worms entirely - they wouldn't have needed to.
> 
> = = = = =
> 
> ...


Snitches get stitches.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

^

Funding...true.
What ever happened to "drive by" exhaust tests I heard about years ago?
It's not that we need 0.05 % accuracy, but just something to show if a vehicle is emitting like 5x+ the allowed emissions to throw up a red flag.


----------



## StlVDub (Aug 1, 2010)

Forgive me if this has already been covered, but now I sit here worried, after getting a new 1.8T Passat this past January, am I going to encounter a big resale value hit as well? Obviously not because of it being a diesel, but I'm just concerned all this negative press VW now has is going to make the values of ALL their cars plummet. Hopefully I'm wrong.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

StlVDub said:


> Forgive me if this has already been covered, but now I sit here worried, after getting a new 1.8T Passat this past January, am I going to encounter a big resale value hit as well? Obviously not because of it being a diesel, but I'm just concerned all this negative press VW now has is going to make the values of ALL their cars plummet. Hopefully I'm wrong.


If you panic and need to trade RIGHT NOW! ... then yes.
It's like when gas prices spiked several years ago and unwashed hoards of SUV owners had to trade for a more fuel efficient green image car right now.
Dealers were only giving them half value in trade. .. and buyers took the huge trade hit to get a more efficient image.
Just chill... things will swing back towards normal.


----------



## Egz (May 30, 2002)

BRealistic said:


> I wonder if this high ego emission scandal will prompt emission testing changes, or even a "road use" verification on all vehicles that the test emissions are similar to normal use.


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/epa-plans-sweeping-changes-in-diesel-emissions-testing/



> EPA plans sweeping changes in diesel emissions testing
> 
> DETROIT -- The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency plans sweeping changes to the way it tests for diesel emissions after getting duped by clandestine software in Volkswagen vehicles for seven years.
> 
> ...


More at link. But they do plan to make changes.


----------



## jannikt (Sep 25, 2015)

VW is in big doo-doo.

First, they denied and fought EPA's allegations.
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/24/how-volkswagen-fought-epa-on-emissions-cheating-claims.html
The way they tried to fool EPA is almost an invitation to apply the maximum penalty under law.

And now it looks that they tried to fix the issue through software patches, and failed twice.
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/s/volkswagens-cheating-engines-cant-easily-fixed-vw-225206095.html

Even adding urea injection may not be enough to bring the vehicles in compliance.


> And even the installation of a Urea injection system — known commonly as AdBlue — can't guarantee the cars pass emissions. In a letter to VW, the CARB noted that even TDI cars equipped with AdBlue failed the agency emissions tests in May.


And finally, this is not confined to the USA. VW cheated in Europe, their biggest market, as well.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34345210

They cooked the perfect storm for themselves.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

^Good news, IMO.

Personally, I prefer the term "elegant" to describe VW's exploit, but, you know...


----------



## tbvvw (Jun 19, 2002)

tbvvw said:


> Although I don’t own a VW at this time, I’ve bought 8 new and used VWs from 2 dealerships over the past 26 years. The first Tischer of Laurel, MD (now Ourisman) and the last 15 years with VW of South Charlotte.
> 
> I dropped my A3 off for service there this morning, it was the most depressed dealership environment I have ever experienced.
> First off, at 7:40AM...I was the ONLY customer on the lot which is unheard of, esp in the service area. Then, the GM walks by with his eyes straight to the floor and says nothing. Usually he’d say good morning and can I help you with anything. Today, nothing. One third of their normally packed new inventory lot is gone and no cars parked out front on the lawn. Not sure if that’s the old year gone and awaiting new 2016 models or if they moved all the diesels off the lot. I think diesels are 25% of their new car sales. I am usually asked if I need a free shuttle ride to my office...that didn't happen today.
> ...



Follow up:

I picked my A3 up from the VW dealer at 4:45pm yesterday. 

Again, I was the only customer in the drive through service bay with 5 SAs. Usually at that time...it would have been very busy.
I walked through the showroom and looked at the lot, both empty. Every sales guy had their head down at their desk.
Two visits in one day, both completely empty and both completely depressing.
The execs responsible got their golden parachutes...these guys will get nothing.


----------



## GruuvenNorth (Dec 13, 2006)

So is it a good time to get a 2015 gas model?


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

GruuvenNorth said:


> So is it a good time to get a 2015 gas model?


Do it. The 1.8T nevar...oh you know.


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

I get the feeling VW will do their best to support dealerships and customers when things start getting organized. They don't really have a choice if they want to survive. I'm sure plenty of VW salespeople have put in their two weeks. If you can't get someone to sell your product, you're f***ed as a company. No matter how big. And they know VW has one of the strongest and loyal enthusiasts community outside old American classics and pony cars. They know they've pissed off a lot of these people. They know they will have to win them back. They can try to become a gigantic appliance company again, but after what has happened, they know they'll need to first get their cult following back. Those guys seem to do a lot of free marketing for them anyway. Hell, this site is one of the top car forums when you search "car Forum" on Google. Yes, I'm referring to VWVortex, not TCL.


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

classicjetta said:


> Do it. The 1.8T nevar...oh you know.


...be recalled for federal emissions violation?


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

Peloton25 said:


> Different can of worms entirely - they wouldn't have needed to.
> 
> = = = = =
> 
> ...


Yeah and now it makes perfect sense why Honda, Mazda, and Nissan all teased us with the prospect of diesel cars only to pull out later. I'm sure their engineers were all asking what the hell VW was doing to pass.


----------



## kezho (Mar 15, 2004)

tbvvw said:


> Follow up:
> 
> I picked my A3 up from the VW dealer at 4:45pm yesterday.
> 
> ...


 VW of South Charlotte is never empty. I got my GTI there last year and have been very happy with them. I hope this is just a temporary lull, until VW figures out a good PR strategy. 
Workers should be able to sue the offending management for lost income. That would be a good use of their golden parachutes.


----------



## core5 (Apr 28, 2006)

So much money and fines being spoken of... I wonder is any actual consumers will see a dime of compensation. /s

VW broke the law, and did it on purpose, the company deserves punishment. However, I bet most people are coming out of the woodwork for a cash grab and a very small minority of them are directly affected by the wrongdoing.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

core5 said:


> So much money and fines being spoken of... I wonder is any actual consumers will see a dime of compensation. /s
> 
> VW broke the law, and did it on purpose, the company deserves punishment. However, I bet most people are coming out of the woodwork for a cash grab and a very small minority of them are directly affected by the wrongdoing.


even if some don't own diesels, they may still see a bit of the backlash just because it's VW.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Best article I've seen on this, ahem, fracas: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/09/24/uk-usa-volkswagen-deception-insight-idUKKCN0RO2J720150924


----------



## tbvvw (Jun 19, 2002)

kezho said:


> VW of South Charlotte is never empty. I got my GTI there last year and have been very happy with them. I hope this is just a temporary lull, until VW figures out a good PR strategy.
> Workers should be able to sue the offending management for lost income. That would be a good use of their golden parachutes.


I've been a 15 year customer there at the old location and new...and yesterday was surreal.
I am very happy with them also, they've treated me great and I feel bad for them.


----------



## adrew (Aug 15, 2003)

GruuvenNorth said:


> So is it a good time to get a 2015 gas model?


I would at least wait until 10/1 for new incentives to kick in, probably November would be your best bet.


----------



## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

I wasn't sure how I felt about Horn because he's relatively new at what has to be a super sh!tty job (cleaning up the mess that is VWoA). However, if US VW dealers are behind him, he can't be all that _good_ :laugh:. Sayonara!



autonews.com said:


> Volkswagen’s national dealer council and other dealers are publicly opposing the VW supervisory board’s reported plans to dismiss Volkswagen of America CEO Michael Horn.“Recent reports that his position may be in jeopardy over this situation made it imperative that the dealer body express our unconditional support for Michael Horn,” Volkswagen’s 12-member National Dealer Advisory Council said in a statement to _Automotive News_ delivered by the group’s chairman, Alan Brown, general manager of two large VW dealerships in suburban Dallas.


http://www.autonews.com/article/201...ealers-oppose-possible-ouster-of-vw-executive


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

core5 said:


> So much money and fines being spoken of... I wonder is any actual consumers will see a dime of compensation.


I already pointed out that it looks like the class action over the Honda Civic Hybrid yielded about $100-200 plus an extended warranty to the average member of the class. However, that was relating more to durability of the traction battery and fuel economy drops after the fix. Honda didn't actually cheat anything, they just made a totally inferior hybrid to Toyota's offering. As many have stated, VW cheated on purpose, and did so for an entire generation of cars. To be honest, I'm not convinced that they weren't cheating with the previous generation too, but apparently nobody's looking at those ones, or at least not that has been in the press.

Anyway, it's possible TDI owners will get a similar deal: rebate checks for a couple hundred dollars and an extended warranty that covers all emissions related equipment to 1XX,000 total vehicle miles.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

AZGolf said:


> Anyway, it's possible TDI owners will get a similar deal: rebate checks for a couple hundred dollars and an extended warranty that covers all emissions related equipment to 1XX,000 total vehicle miles.


So VWoA has a very difficult decision to make soon. All they are legally obligated to do is exactly what you describe in addition to switching the engine mapping to run all control equipment all the time. However, that's pretty much a guarantee that hundreds of thousands of formerly loyal owners will not only defect to some other brand, but tell all their friends and family how awful VW is and further decrease VWs prospects in the US. OTOH, if they offer to buy back the cars (not a small cost), they might come out better in the long run because they went the extra mile to try and make things right. I wouldn't want to make that call.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

classicjetta said:


> So VWoA has a very difficult decision to make soon. All they are legally obligated to do is exactly what you describe in addition to switching the engine mapping to run all control equipment all the time. However, that's pretty much a guarantee that hundreds of thousands of formerly loyal owners will not only defect to some other brand, but tell all their friends and family how awful VW is and further decrease VWs prospects in the US. OTOH, if they offer to buy back the cars (not a small cost), they might come out better in the long run because they went the extra mile to try and make things right. I wouldn't want to make that call.


Over-reacting I think 

I'm pretty sure 90% of TDI will still buy TDI models but they will either avoid ever getting a software update or will use aftermarket solutions to flash back to pollution mode.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

a woman i know handles warranty paperwork for VW in and around my area. i spoke to her about this and asked her what she thought would be a plausible way for VW to fix this without buying all those cars back. she said that it isn't just the programming that's an issue here, but the longevity of the parts used for reducing emissions. if VW were going to try and fix each and every car, it may end up being more than just a reflash (like they tried already), or replacing the ECM. she mentioned the DPF, catalytic converters, exhaust flaps, sensors, and hardware. she even mentioned that the email every dealer got regarding the stop sale only covers 2009-2015 models with a 2.0 diesel, but didn't specify an engine code. i'll see if she can get me a copy of that email so i can post it up.


----------



## Slowrider7577 (Apr 7, 2006)

Odd timing, and probably totally unrelated, but I got a call from the sales guy who showed me the Golf R I drove.

His story a couple of weeks ago was "This is the only Golf R in the state, the price is non-negotiable because it will be gone anyway" to "Hey, still have that Golf R sitting here, give me a call!".


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> a woman i know handles warranty paperwork for VW in and around my area. i spoke to her about this and asked her what she thought would be a plausible way for VW to fix this without buying all those cars back. she said that it isn't just the programming that's an issue here, but the longevity of the parts used for reducing emissions. if VW were going to try and fix each and every car, it may end up being more than just a reflash (like they tried already), or replacing the ECM. she mentioned the DPF, catalytic converters, exhaust flaps, sensors, and hardware. she even mentioned that the email every dealer got regarding the stop sale only covers 2009-2015 models with a 2.0 diesel, but didn't specify an engine code. i'll see if she can get me a copy of that email so i can post it up.


I hate to be a hall monitor and all, but she shouldn't do that. If it came from VWoA, it's confidential. I've read everything, and I'm not disussing anything. While her chances of getting in trouble are slim, she should keep those communications confidential as well for the sake of her job and her store. 

The factory can get very pissed at people who leak things. Ask me how I know. :laugh:


----------



## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> I hate to be a hall monitor and all, but she shouldn't do that. If it came from VWoA, it's confidential. I've read everything, and I'm not disussing anything. While her chances of getting in trouble are slim, she should keep those communications confidential as well for the sake of her job and her store.
> 
> *The factory can get very pissed at people who leak things. Ask me how I know. *:laugh:


I'm sure corporate gets alerted to EVERY post you make


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> I hate to be a hall monitor and all, but she shouldn't do that. If it came from VWoA, it's confidential. I've read everything, and I'm not disussing anything. While her chances of getting in trouble are slim, she should keep those communications confidential as well for the sake of her job and her store.
> 
> The factory can get very pissed at people who leak things. Ask me how I know. :laugh:


most of what i've said so far was her ballparking what she believes will end up being the fix. but i see your point. i'm guessing you've been on the receiving end of one of those "meetings". :laugh:


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

GoHomeBroke said:


> ... but the longevity of the parts used for reducing emissions ...


The same thing was mentioned to me at a dealer two hours ago.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

atomicalex said:


> ^Good news, IMO.
> 
> Personally, I prefer the term "elegant" to describe VW's exploit, but, you know...


You must think very highly of Bernard Madoff's elegant schemes then.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Cooper said:


> The same thing was mentioned to me at a dealer two hours ago.


i'd imagine VW parts guys are salivating at the idea.


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> most of what i've said so far was her ballparking what she believes will end up being the fix. but i see your point. i'm guessing you've been on the receiving end of one of those "meetings". :laugh:


The generalities she's discussing is fine. I should have bolded the part where you were talking about posting the email. That'll get the factory all fired up. There's been confidentially notices on everything. 

VW has asked me to remove things I've posted a few times, but I got Nissan all twisted years ago when the first batch of LEAFs went on a port hold. Man my rep and his boss were pissed that I agreed with all of the disgruntled owners online. :laugh:



DasCC said:


> I'm sure corporate gets alerted to EVERY post you make


:laugh: My boss actually got a letter from VW years ago stating what a great job I was doing for both his store and VW, by building a ton of good will in the online community. I guess they never saw my posts in OT, me getting into it with Saintor, and how I enjoy making fun of car salesmen. :laugh:


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

*Buyback/repair question*

I wonder if VW would buyback the older vehicles (cost to repair/warranty parts) and modify newer ones?

Thinking the buyback value of the older vehicles would be about the same or less than doing the retrofit/warranty.

Also wonder how much of VW's early denial (2014) was due to execs being told by engineers (who maybe put it in without telling them) that everything was fine and the tests were wrong vs execs knowing the whole time it was a defeat device.


----------



## Tuono5740 (Nov 23, 2011)

GoHomeBroke said:


> i'd imagine VW *service* guys are salivating at the idea.


ftfy

Most dealerships pay your standard commission percentage on warranty tickets as well. Just checked Alldata and while the science isn't exact, looks like about 6.0 hours at customer pay which makes it a 3.6 hour job a warranty rate. So for service guys that's 3.6 hours plus some stupid expensive parts. All 3 cat's together go for a little over $4,000 so I can't imagine what the DPF is going for if they ever needed to replace


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Tuono5740 said:


> ftfy
> 
> Most dealerships pay your standard commission percentage on warranty tickets as well. Just checked Alldata and while the science isn't exact, looks like about 6.0 hours at customer pay which makes it a 3.6 hour job a warranty rate. So for service guys that's 3.6 hours plus some stupid expensive parts. All 3 cat's together go for a little over $4,000 so I can't imagine what the DPF is going for if they ever needed to replace


parts guys will make commission on these too. :beer:


----------



## Spoolin2Liter (Sep 10, 2014)




----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

LX289 said:


> I would buy one of these just because of the defeat device.
> Around here emissions isn't a problem
> Who cares they need to worry about the coal fired power stations that we have around here not cars



People can be concerned about both coal fired power stations and automobile emissions at the same time.
While you may live in a rural area where NOx isn't a concern, you may someday need to drive to a more populated place where it is a real problem. (That's what most people do with cars, they drive them around.)
You know these things, you just mean to agitate.


----------



## oldfart17 (Feb 24, 2003)

Officially official...

*Matthias Müller appointed CEO of the Volkswagen Group*

• Müller remains Chairman of Porsche AG until a successor has been found

Matthias Müller (62) has been appointed CEO of Volkswagen AG with immediate effect. This was decided by the Supervisory Board at its meeting in Wolfsburg today (Friday). Müller is currently Chairman of Porsche AG in Stuttgart. He will continue in this function until a successor has been found.

The interim Chairman of the Supervisory Board of Volkswagen AG, Berthold Huber, underscored: "Matthias Müller is a person of great strategic, entrepreneurial and social competence. He knows the Group and its brands well and can immediately engage in his new task with full energy. We expressly value his critical and constructive approach."

Bernd Osterloh, Chairman of the Group Works Council, commented: "When it comes to leadership appointments the Volkswagen Group does not need hasty decisions. We know and value Matthias Müller for his determination and decisiveness. He does not work on his own, rather he is a team player. That is what Volkswagen needs now."

Matthias Müller said: "My most urgent task is to win back trust for the Volkswagen Group – by leaving no stone unturned and with maximum transparency, as well as drawing the right conclusions from the current situation. Under my leadership, Volkswagen will do everything it can to develop and implement the most stringent compliance and governance standards in our industry. If we manage to achieve that then the Volkswagen Group with its innovative strength, its strong brands and above all its competent and highly motivated team has the opportunity to emerge from this crisis stronger than before."


----------



## KARMANN_20V (May 25, 2005)

oldfart17 said:


> Officially official...
> 
> *Matthias Müller appointed CEO of the Volkswagen Group*
> 
> ...


That's it??? Weren't they supposed to reveal the investigation results today?


----------



## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

Spoolin2Liter said:


>


 How is it possible to spell it incorrectly AND correctly in the same image?


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

FastGTi said:


> How is it possible to spell it incorrectly AND correctly in the same image?


Mouth breathers breath through their mouths, while guys like me breathe through their noses.


----------



## 2.0smurf (Sep 7, 2006)

Damn, I was interested in picking up a CPO GSW TDI. Hell I still want one...


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Over-reacting I think
> 
> I'm pretty sure 90% of TDI will still buy TDI models but they will either avoid ever getting a software update or will use aftermarket solutions to flash back to pollution mode.


I don't think current TDI owners will be able to buy a new TDI in the years to come.


----------



## nastybags (Nov 29, 2005)

I hope the new CEO is ready, going from Porsche to VW is a gigantic leap.VW is an enormous company to take hold of and in the midst of negative PR.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

This was already in the pipeline after Piech was shown the door. This restructuring is a good thing, particularly for the individual markets like North America where getting a voice through to Winterkorn wasn't always easy. Now a board member is reporting on each region...

Volkswagen AG Press Release:

*The Volkswagen Group is restructuring: Supervisory Board passes resolutions for new organization*

• Brands and regions to be strengthened
• Vahland moves from Škoda to the Volkswagen brand Board of Management
• De Meo, Maier and Stackmann in new functions
• Board Member for Sales Klingler leaves the Group
• Contract with Board member for Procurement Garcia Sanz extended

The Supervisory Board of Volkswagen AG approved a new management structure for the Group and the brands as well as for the North America region today (Friday) in Wolfsburg. The interim Chairman of the Supervisory Board, Berthold Huber, commented: "The new structure strengthens the brands and regions, gives the Group Board of Management the necessary leeway for strategy and steering within the company, and lays a focus on the targeted development of future-oriented fields."

Details of major changes:

*Reorganization of the North America region / Successor Prof. Vahland*

The Supervisory Board decided on the reorganization of the Group's activities in North America. The markets in the USA, Mexico, and Canada will be combined and significantly strengthened to form a new North America region. Effective November 1, the Group's activities in the region will be led by Prof. Dr. Winfried Vahland (58), formerly Chairman of the Board of Directors at Škoda, who in this new role becomes a member of the Volkswagen brand Board of Management. Prof. Vahland's successor as Chairman of the Board of Directors at Škoda will be Bernhard Maier (55), until now Board Member for Sales and Marketing of Porsche AG. *Michael Horn (52) remains President and CEO of Volkswagen Group of America.*

*Porsche brand group with Bentley and Bugatti*

At Group level the management structure will be oriented even more systematically to the modular toolkits. These toolkits feature standardized technical components for each automotive vehicle segment (volume, premium, sport and commercial vehicles). Consequently, a Porsche brand group with Bentley and Bugatti will be established for the sportscar and mid-engine toolkit. The toolkit strategy will come under the even closer guidance of the Group CEO; a separate department will be set up for this purpose. The Audi brand group with Lamborghini and Ducati will be continued as will the Truck Holding, and the Power Engineering and Financial Services business lines. The volume brands Volkswagen (with principal responsibility for the modular transverse toolkit), SEAT, and Škoda will be represented by one member each in the Group Board of Management.

*New Group functions for efficiency and future-oriented fields*

Group functions will concentrate more closely on efficiency and future-oriented fields; organizational units, for example for Group product strategy, new business fields, cooperations and holdings, connected car activities, and CO2 steering, will therefore be set up. According to Huber, "new, strong Group functions, such as for standardization and harmonized production processes, will lay the timely foundations for efficient decision-making. We will become faster and more agile." Furthermore, a Chief Technology Officer will analyze and, if necessary, co-steer technical developments throughout the Group as mandated by the Group Board of Management.

*Upgrading of brands and regions*

At the same time, existing corporate bodies, structures and processes will be streamlined at Group level, in particular by strengthening the brands and regional accountability. To that end the Volkswagen brand will introduce a management structure with four regions, each led by a local CEO with a direct reporting line to the brand Chairman, Herbert Diess.

*Streamlining the Group Board of Management*

The production department at Group level, until now led by Thomas Ulbrich in an interim capacity, will be abolished with immediate effect. This is one consequence of delegating responsibility to the brands and regions. Berthold Huber commented: "Going forward, the brands and regions will also have greater independence with regard to production. So it follows that they should also hold the responsibility for these activities."

The interim Supervisory Board Chairman emphasized that "one key point is that we are scaling back complexity in the Group. In recent weeks, we have already undertaken important steps such as separating Group and brand functions." He said the developments of the last few days had underscored the urgency of this project: "We will not lose any time. The new management model will be implemented at the beginning of 2016." This would bring the Board greater freedom to address urgent issues concerning Group strategy, development and steering.

*Further Board of Management changes*

The Supervisory Board extended the contract with Francisco Javier Garcia Sanz (58), Member of the Board of Management of Volkswagen Aktiengesellschaft with responsibility for Procurement, by five years.

Christian Klingler (47), member of the Board of Management of Volkswagen Aktiengesellschaft with responsibility for Sales and Marketing and member of the Volkswagen brand Board of Management with responsibility for Sales and Marketing, is leaving the company with immediate effect as part of long-term planned structural changes and as a result of differences with regard to business strategy. This is not related to recent events. The new CEO Matthias Müller will head the Sales department at Group level in an interim capacity until further notice.

Jürgen Stackmann (54), previously Chairman of SEAT, will take over Christian Klingler's function as a member of the Volkswagen brand Board of Management. Stackmann is succeeded by Luca de Meo (48), currently Audi AG Board of Management member for Sales and Marketing. These personnel changes become effective from October 1.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

According to today's New York Times, Kelly Blue Book has estimated that it would cost VW about $7.3 billion to buy back all 482,000 diesels, using the market value those cars had before last week's scandal broke. That is comparable to the $7 billion VW set aside for the issue this week.

Other ideas raised in the article are extending warranties two years with unlimited mileage plus giving owners a nontrivial credit towards a future VW, and giving all owners a $1,000 gift card that owners can in turn give to the environmental organization of their choice.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

KARMANN_20V said:


> That's it??? Weren't they supposed to reveal the investigation results today?


No way. This will be ongoing for a while.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Edit. nevermind


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> This was already in the pipeline after Piech was shown the door. This restructuring is a good thing, particularly for the individual markets like North America where getting a voice through to Winterkorn wasn't always easy. Now a board member is reporting on each region...
> 
> *Michael Horn (52) remains President and CEO of Volkswagen Group of America.*


Yes. I fully support this. Let's keep things moving forward. This is good news for us here in the USA.



[email protected] said:


> *Streamlining the Group Board of Management*
> 
> The production department at Group level, until now led by Thomas Ulbrich in an interim capacity, will be abolished with immediate effect. This is one consequence of delegating responsibility to the brands and regions. Berthold Huber commented: "Going forward, the brands and regions will also have greater independence with regard to production. So it follows that they should also hold the responsibility for these activities."


Well, I hope this goes well. This could be a challenge, based on my experience in delegating production, but we'll see. Once Puebla converts to MQB fully, this will be a lot more sensible. I supposed they have to start it at group level eventually. 

Not bad over all. I don't have warm fuzzies about Müller, but time will tell.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Chilcoot said:


> Other ideas raised in the article are extending warranties two years with unlimited mileage plus giving owners a nontrivial credit towards a future VW, and giving all owners a $1,000 gift card that owners can in turn give to the environmental organization of their choice.


I'd take that as a package. 

We like our TDI. We have liked all of our TDIs, even the crappy B5.5.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

FastGTi said:


> How is it possible to spell it incorrectly AND correctly in the same image?


morans


----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

atomicalex said:


> Well, I hope this goes well. This could be a challenge, based on my experience in delegating production, but we'll see. Once Puebla converts to MQB fully, this will be a lot more sensible. I supposed they have to start it at group level eventually.
> 
> Not bad over all. I don't have warm fuzzies about Müller, but time will tell.


I think it can work as long as the regional board representatives are strong and vocal about local needs. The problem with tight centralized management is that it can completely obscure unique needs and preferences in certain regions. Wolfsburg has never really been good at understanding the market in North America. This is subsidiarity at work and it's the right thing to do -- again as long as the regional champions on the board have the will to get things implemented.


----------



## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

Chilcoot said:


> According to today's New York Times, Kelly Blue Book has estimated that it would cost VW about $7.3 billion to buy back all *482,000 diesels*, using the market value those cars had before last week's scandal broke. That is comparable to the $7 billion VW set aside for the issue this week.
> 
> Other ideas raised in the article are extending warranties two years with unlimited mileage plus giving owners a nontrivial credit towards a future VW, and giving all owners a $1,000 gift card that owners can in turn give to the environmental organization of their choice.


is that number current registered TDIs? or sold? 

If that is a sold number I wonder how many are no longer on the road? totaled or by mechanical failure.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

Additional September 25th Statement:

*Statement by the Supervisory Board of Volkswagen AG*

The Volkswagen Supervisory Board consulted intensively on the current situation at its meeting today. There is absolutely no excuse for the manipulations which have deeply shocked Volkswagen. The company will leave no stone unturned in getting to the bottom of this, will call those responsible to account, and take the necessary actions. The first consequences in this regard were agreed upon at today's meeting:

1. The Supervisory Board has authorized the Chairman to mandate German and US lawyers to objectively investigate and fully clarify the manipulation of emissions data of diesel engines.

2. The Executive Committee of the Supervisory Board will be charged with coordinating and safeguarding all necessary steps to monitor clarification until such time as a proposed committee commences its work.

3. With the information currently available the Supervisory Board recommended the immediate suspension of some employees. This process is already underway.

4. Matthias Müller will lead the Volkswagen Group going forward as the new CEO of Volkswagen AG. He is what the company needs now. Matthias Müller is exactly the right man at the right time to make a fresh start and to drive clarification of the current crisis that has hit our company with decisiveness and to draw the right conclusions. We expressly value his critical and constructive approach.

5. The Supervisory Board resolved to propose to the Extraordinary Meeting of Shareholders on November 9, 2015 to elect Mr. Hans Dieter Pötsch as a member of the Supervisory Board. The Supervisory Board intends to subsequently elect him as its Chairman.

Berthold Huber, Deputy Chairman of the Supervisory Board, said: "The test manipulations are a moral and political disaster for Volkswagen. The unlawful behavior of engineers and technicians involved in engine development shocked Volkswagen just as much as it shocked the public. We can only apologize and ask our customers, the public, the authorities and our investors to give us a chance to make amends." The Supervisory Board today commissioned an American law firm to assist in further clarification and in preparing the necessary steps.


----------



## fknlo (Jun 30, 2004)

atomicalex said:


> We like our TDI. We have liked all of our TDIs, even the crappy B5.5.


I've liked mine too even though it has barely met EPA mpg numbers in the best conditions, but am worried about issues after any fixes are implemented. I'm not a 5 year old that's going to cross my arms and shake my head while screaming no when it comes to getting the required updates either. I'd be fine with a buy back option at this point.


----------



## overst33r (Jul 18, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Additional September 25th Statement:
> 
> *Statement by the Supervisory Board of Volkswagen AG*
> 
> ...


So it seems they already know who is responsible. Maybe not responsible, but at least who they will blame.


----------



## fknlo (Jun 30, 2004)

overst33r said:


> So it seems they already know who is responsible. Maybe not responsible, but at least who they will blame.


Yeah, I'm sure it was those pesky engineers and technicians who decided to break the rules to get an engine out in time. :bs:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

fknlo said:


> Yeah, I'm sure it was those pesky engineers and technicians who decided to break the rules to get an engine out in time. :bs:


**** rolls downhill.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

fknlo said:


> Yeah, I'm sure it was those pesky engineers and technicians who decided to break the rules to get an engine out in time. :bs:


"Engineers" actually includes engineering management over there. 

I hope they publish a list. I want to see who all I know on it. :wave:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

atomicalex said:


> I hope they publish a list. I want to see who all I know on it. :wave:


I'm sorry, I read that as _I hope they publish a list. I want to see where I'll be applying in the future._ :laugh:


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

So... I wonder what the actual instant depreciation is on a TDI if you have one. Let's say you bought a 2015 TDI for $30K (I'm making these numbers up) is it all of a sudden only worth $20K today? Is it unaffected? Is it totally unsellable? That's what I'd be really curious about. I remember after I bought my Cayman in 2007 the CDN$ was doing so well that Porsche Canada did a huge price adjustment on all the new cars to be more competitive with cross border shoppers and my car was instantly worth $10K less as a result. I wonder if TDI owners are facing something similar or if there's really no change. If Porsche was caught cheating their hp numbers and it suddenly came out that the cars only made 200HP instead of 350HP that would have an instant impact on private resale would it not?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Hawk said:


> So... I wonder what the actual instant depreciation is on a TDI if you have one.


I wonder what the actual long-term appreciation will be on a TDI (or other diesel) if this fiasco ends any company selling diesels (cars) in the U.S. My diesel wasn't able to be sold in CA when it was on the market, but used ones could be 'imported' into the People's Republic and fetched a high price over other states used prices (this was pre-any diesel being legal to be sold new in CA).


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> I'm sorry, I read that as _I hope they publish a list. I want to see where I'll be applying in the future._ :laugh:


 Depends on who's on the list!


----------



## 03_uni-B (Sep 6, 2005)

May have already been stated, but didn't feel like reading 85 pages...

*Would the better mpg's outweigh the greater emissions? *


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

03_uni-B said:


> May have already been stated, but didn't feel like reading 85 pages...
> 
> *Would the better mpg's outweigh the greater emissions? *


it's been stated that the advertised numbers may actually reflect numbers produced from testing, not real world conditions. so the 42 mpg would actually be from having the full emissions system working as it should. which would explain why so many people recorded higher than advertised numbers. fixing them all to be emission compliant would only reduce them to what the mpg's were advertised as in the first place.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

03_uni-B said:


> May have already been stated, but didn't feel like reading 85 pages...
> 
> *Would the better mpg's outweigh the greater emissions? *


Emissions are regulated - for a specific vehicle. MPGs are not.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

03_uni-B said:


> May have already been stated, but didn't feel like reading 85 pages...
> 
> *Would the better mpg's outweigh the greater emissions? *


Well, it's a tradeoff of NOX for CO2. This is a literal case of "pick your poison".


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Hajduk said:


> Emissions are regulated - for a specific vehicle. MPGs are not.


But MPG is almost directly proportional to CO2 production. If you increase the miles per gallon then the CO2 goes down accordingly. :beer:


----------



## WinterWagon (Nov 7, 2012)

Air and water do mix said:


> But MPG is almost directly proportional to CO2 production. If you increase the miles per gallon then the CO2 goes down accordingly. :beer:


Per mile, not necessarily per gallon.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

fknlo said:


> Yeah, I'm sure it was those pesky engineers and technicians who decided to break the rules to get an engine out in time. :bs:


So... Is this why Shomegrown hasn't posted on this issue yet opcorn:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Hajduk said:


> Emissions are regulated - for a specific vehicle. MPGs are not.


Well fuel economy is regulated, but at the fleet level. That's what CAFE does.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

Now Switzerland is banning some VWs. 

From AP:



> Switzerland is banning sales of Volkswagen Group cars with outdated emissions systems in the wake of the emissions-rigging scandal that started in the United States.
> 
> *Thomas Rohrbach, spokesman for the Swiss federal office of roadways, says Friday that the ban is on all cars with diesel engines in the "euro 5" emissions category. It includes all VW models — as well as Seat, Skodas and others in the VW group.
> *
> ...


----------



## kbmdean4011 (Apr 15, 2009)

Spotted today. Still has dealer plates the poor bastard.


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

kbmdean4011 said:


> Spotted today. Still has dealer plates the poor bastard.


I delivered a TDI Wagen 5 minutes before closing on the night before everything was announced. Customer called the next day to return the car.


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

shawshank redemption said:


> I delivered a TDI Wagen 5 minutes before closing on the night before everything was announced. Customer called the next day to return the car.


Did you tell him "No givesies-backsies!"

>8^)
ER


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

2.0T_Convert said:


> So... Is this why Shomegrown hasn't posted on this issue yet opcorn:


It's likely because he is under very strict legal guidance to not make any public statements anywhere.


----------



## Ermegerd (Aug 5, 2013)

I don't want a buy back program. Just a simple date to bring it in and re-code the issue.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

One more official statement September 25th, 2015:


*Dr. Herbert Diess, CEO of the Volkswagen Passenger Cars brand, explains: "We are working at full speed on a solution."*


In the press release dated September 22, 2015, the Volkswagen Group announced that Volkswagen Group vehicles worldwide are affected by the current issues regarding emissions.

The internal evaluation revealed that approximately five million Volkswagen Passenger Cars brand vehicles are affected worldwide. Certain models and model years of these vehicles (such as the sixth generation Volkswagen Golf, the seventh generation Volkswagen Passat and the first generation Volkswagen Tiguan) are equipped exclusively with type EA 189 diesel engines.

As previously announced, all new Volkswagen Passenger Car brand vehicles that fulfill the EU6 norm valid throughout Europe are not affected. This therefore also includes the current Golf, Passat and Touran models.

Dr. Herbert Diess, CEO of the Volkswagen Passenger Cars brand stressed: "We are working at full speed on a technical solution that we will present to partners, to our customers and to the public as swiftly as possible. Our aim is to inform our customers as quickly as possible, so that their vehicles comply fully with regulations. I assure you that Volkswagen will do everything humanly possible to win back the trust of our customers, the dealerships and the public."

The Volkswagen Passenger Cars brand will inform all markets worldwide how many of vehicles are affected locally. We are working intensively on remedial measures in close coordination with the certification authorities. The vehicles are and remain technically safe and roadworthy.


----------



## argh32 (Apr 8, 2004)

*always wondered*

I always wondered why my mileage was so much better than the epa numbers on the window sticker....


----------



## Shmi (Mar 25, 2009)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/25/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN0RP14U20150925



> Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) named company veteran Matthias Mueller as its chief executive on Friday as the German carmaker struggles to get to grips with a crisis over rigged diesel emission tests that its chairman called "a moral and political disaster."
> 
> After a marathon board meeting at its headquarters in Wolfsburg, the world's biggest automaker said Mueller, the 62-year-old head of its Porsche sports car division, would replace Martin Winterkorn, who resigned as CEO on Wednesday.
> 
> ...


----------



## Shmi (Mar 25, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> i'd imagine VW parts guys are salivating at the idea.


As an Audi parts guy, let's just say my interest is piqued. A3 TDI DPFs are about $1200. Hmm...


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

Shmi said:


> http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/25/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN0RP14U20150925


Well if you need to feel better the total number went from 11 million down to 5 million.


----------



## Shmi (Mar 25, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Well if you need to feel better the total number went from 11 million down to 5 million.


Yeah i just read your post up there. Crappiest silver lining ever! :laugh:


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

Shmi said:


> Yeah i just read your post up there. Crappiest silver lining ever! :laugh:


Got that right. :beer:


----------



## jcha (Jun 11, 1999)

Why is VW hesitant to say unambiguously that the EA288 is not affected? Or did I miss it? That would be a relief at least to those of us who have recently purchased a new TDI.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Air and water do mix said:


> Well, it's a tradeoff of NOX for CO2. This is a literal case of "pick your poison".


Exactly. 

Also, as noted before, the EPA calculates fuel economy from the emissions data, so the reported mpg was lower than the real world. The revelation explains the higher than expected mileage.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

argh32 said:


> I always wondered why my mileage was so much better than the epa numbers on the window sticker....


Fuelly.com will be having a melt-down soon. Those poor TDI hyper-milers.


----------



## vweatrice (May 24, 2006)

I havent read the whole thread, but am I the only one thinking the MK7 with the EA288 shouldnt be concerned by all that scandal thing??? Ive heard on the radio, by a well known auto journalist in Quebec, that the hardest thing with the diesel is to conform to two sorts of regulation with the same technology. (Euro and NA) For 2015 they installed the urea tank in north america but not in europe. So for 2015 we have two different kinds of anti-pollution system and in north america its the same system as the touareg, wich is not concerned... for now. 

What I think is that VW knew that scandal thing was coming, so they quickly fitted the urea on the MK7. By "quickly" I mean torsion beam. They claimed it was because of the lack of space, but even the sportwagen have the torsion beam. Anyways... I think they put the urea on the mk7 to save the face and that the TDI sales are pending just to let the smoke clear. So, to me, the MK7 are probably allright with the norms. But what do I know? I dont have scientific datas and all... my two cents


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

Lwize said:


> Fuelly.com will be having a melt-down soon. Those poor TDI hyper-milers.


I look forward to the battles from those who will try to refuse bringing their cars into compliance, assuming that becomes the plan of attack for VW to correct this issue, and not the buy-back program that others have suggested. 

If VW is smart they will set it up as an either/or situation - then any holdouts can be paid to walk away, then VW can bring the car into compliance through whatever methods they determine and finally resell them to recoup some of the costs. 

Can't see any way at all that this doesn't harm long term TDI values in the secondary market though, and the chance of owners being made completely whole from the point they were at is also doubtful.

>8^)
ER


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

vweatrice said:


> Anyways... I think they put the urea on the mk7 to save the face and that the TDI sales are pending just to let the smoke clear...


So to speak ... :laugh:


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

Do you think that non-car people even know about this?

Well just today I was eating lunch, and at the next table there were 5 adults and a baby. Probably the most non-car looking bunch ever.

And for 10 minutes I overheard them talking about dieselgate and how VW really screwed this up.


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

vweatrice said:


> I havent read the whole thread, but am I the only one thinking the MK7 with the EA288 shouldnt be concerned by all that scandal thing??? Ive heard on the radio, by a well known auto journalist in Quebec, that the hardest thing with the diesel is to conform to two sorts of regulation with the same technology. (Euro and NA) For 2015 they installed the urea tank in north america but not in europe. So for 2015 we have two different kinds of anti-pollution system and in north america its the same system as the touareg, wich is not concerned... for now.
> 
> What I think is that VW knew that scandal thing was coming, so they quickly fitted the urea on the MK7. By "quickly" I mean torsion beam. They claimed it was because of the lack of space, but even the sportwagen have the torsion beam. Anyways... I think they put the urea on the mk7 to save the face and that the TDI sales are pending just to let the smoke clear. So, to me, the MK7 are probably allright with the norms. But what do I know? I dont have scientific datas and all... my two cents


I'd say you are probably correct. 

They certainly better hope that is the case as the EPA will certainly be taking a very close look before they issue VW any further certificates for diesel products. 

Also, if VW was going to try to keep the game going and pass another generation of cars through to the market via some cheating method, that will likely add weight to the penalties imposed now.

>8^)
ER


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

randy said:


> Do you think that non-car people even know about this?


Well, it's hitting the "have you guys heard about this, did you know that" circuit of the ever so humorous morning banter on the FM scale by now.

Also, on my way home on 635 in Dallas this afternoon, besides the usual Lambo and Maserati crap, I saw a unicorn! A brand new white TDI Jetta with temp plates and the window sticker still there. I can't help but wonder what was going on there.


----------



## vweatrice (May 24, 2006)

Non-car people dont drive VWs anyways. They will drive their boring toyotas until they die


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

vweatrice said:


> Non-car people dont drive VWs anyways. They will drive their boring toyotas until they die


You might be able to say they don't drive diesel VWs, but for sure there are plenty of IJAC's driving VWs here in SoCal. They are also a popular first car for parents to put their kids in due to high levels of safety. 

>8^)
ER


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

vweatrice said:


> Non-car people dont drive VWs anyways. They will drive their boring toyotas until they die


Things I learned today:

The guy down the street with a Routan is a car enthusiast. I am not. Oh well. It was fun while it lasted.


----------



## gonzo08452 (Apr 17, 2006)

vweatrice said:


> Non-car people dont drive VWs anyways. They will drive their boring toyotas until they die


I've never really associated VWs as the car for car people  I see them as quite the opposite really.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

gonzo08452 said:


> I've never really associated VWs as the car for car people  I see them as quite the opposite really.


they are cars for non-people????


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

You'reDrunk said:


> they are cars for non-people????


No, dingbat, the cars AGAINST the people!

:laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Things I learned today:
> 
> The guy down the street with a Routan is a car enthusiast. I am not. Oh well. It was fun while it lasted.


Why else would someone buy a VW-badged Chrysler?

Truth hurts...


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

atomicalex said:


> No, dingbat, the cars AGAINST the people!
> 
> :laugh::laugh::laugh:


I did nazi that coming.


----------



## Katmandu (May 26, 2004)

Peloton25 said:


> I look forward to the battles from those who will try to refuse bringing their cars into compliance, assuming that becomes the plan of attack for VW to correct this issue,
> 
> Can't see any way at all that this doesn't harm long term TDI values in the secondary market though, and the chance of owners being made completely whole from the point they were at is also doubtful.


If there is a fix on the way, there will have to be an EASY way to verify if a car has or had not had the fix applied.

Will it be "legal" to sell a used TDI that has NOT be fixed ?

Will the Seller be liable if the withhold the information that there car has NOT been fixed ? Kinda of like when folks remove catalytic converters.

Stay tuned. It shall be very interesting.


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

My local VW dealer here in Orange County, CA, will NOT take a TDI as a trade in, TODAY.

OUCH.


----------



## WilNJ (Aug 20, 2012)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

Diesel gate is absolutely everywhere. Online, newspapers, every media outlet, etc, etc, etc.

A lot of people know about this.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Aonarch said:


> Diesel gate


Please please please not this name.


----------



## Ambrose Wolfinger (Feb 21, 2005)

I'm very bothered by this. As someone who loves VWs and was interested in getting a TDI, I find this extremely troubling. On the other hand, I've been considering a new GTI, or CC, (Golf R if I feel like dreaming) for my next car. Like many others, I'm wondering if there will be any big incentives.

Also, as much as it hurts, I think VW brought this on themselves. Whether or not you like the EPA, the EPA is not to blame.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Katmandu;88361969. said:


> Stay tuned. It shall be very interesting.


I'm personally hoping to avoid the new tune, but.....


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

randy said:


> My local VW dealer here in Orange County, CA, will NOT take a TDI as a trade in, TODAY.
> 
> OUCH.


Commonwealth? VW of orange?


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

phil123 said:


> Commonwealth? VW of orange?


Commonwealth , now known as South Coast VW.

Walked in on Thursday, approached by salesman. I asked him: will you take a TDI for trade in?
He said: SURE!!
Me: terrific! But will you give me the depreciated value after the bad diesel news came out, or before?

He seemed unsure, so I asked again: are you SURE that you take TDI as trade ins ???

Salesguy: mmmmm.... Not sure. Let me check with my manager.

(5 mins later)

Salesguy: we will not take a TDI for a trade In.

I thought : Geez, is there any communication from management to the front line there ?


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

atomicalex said:


> No, dingbat, the cars AGAINST the people!
> 
> :laugh::laugh::laugh:


You mean Cars Against Humanity? I love that game.


----------



## fahrfast (Feb 20, 2010)

Just think, if the tdi firmware were remotely flashable like tesla's, VW could have gotten all the 11 million tdi car ecu issues patched in 24hours once they become aware that epa investigation had started...bet they'll be taking a look at that technology..


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

randy said:


> Do you think that non-car people even know about this?


Had a project executive make a VW joke in a meeting this week. Everybody (several dozen) laughed. Clearly this story has wings. 

Then again, I work in a place full of engineers and creative types, so maybe the audience was a little narrow. 

Sent from the bathroom by Tapatalk


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Had a project executive make a VW joke in a meeting this week. Everybody (several dozen) laughed. Clearly this story has wings.
> 
> Then again, I work in a place full of engineers and creative types, so maybe the *audi*ence was a little narrow.
> 
> Sent from the bathroom by Tapatalk


I see what you did there.


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

fahrfast said:


> Just think, if the tdi firmware were remotely flashable like tesla's, VW could have gotten all the 11 million tdi car ecu issues patched in 24hours once they become aware that epa investigation had started...bet they'll be taking a look at that technology..


Thank goodness it is not
Will drive mine til she dies
She won't see a dealer


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

cpermd said:


> Thank goodness it is not
> Will drive mine til she dies
> She won't see a dealer


My dealer, of which is the nicest dealer I've ever experienced. Told me they will not make or force anyone to update. We can opt out if we want. I'm just afraid it may be forced from our govt in California though. As in you can't renew your reg, unless you get the update done.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Cutandthrust said:


> I'm just afraid it may be forced from our govt in California though. As in you can't renew your reg, unless you get the update done.


 Name one time California has pressed their will of what is right above yours?


----------



## Double-V (Mar 20, 2001)

cpermd said:


> Thank goodness it is not
> Will drive mine til she dies
> She won't see a dealer


I do not like eggs in the file.
I do not like them in any style.
I will not take them fried or boiled.
I will not take them poached or broiled.


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

bill1975 said:


> I'm very bothered by this. As someone who loves VWs and was interested in getting a TDI, I find this extremely troubling. On the other hand, I've been considering a new GTI, or CC, (Golf R if I feel like dreaming) for my next car. Like many others, I'm wondering if there will be any big incentives.
> 
> Also, as much as it hurts, I think VW brought this on themselves. Whether or not you like the EPA, the EPA is not to blame.


I had this idea too, but the only way to get a discount on an R is to get one that's on the lot. And they don't sit on lots.


----------



## mx5er (Apr 28, 2001)

I was watching Real Time with Bill Maher tonight and they were talking about the VW thang. One of the guests they had on to talk about it was Spike Feresten. He's the host of the show, Car Matchmaker on the Esquire Channel. 

So since the guy is the so-called "car expert", they were talking about VW and *NOT ONCE* was the word "diesel" mentioned :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: From the way they were talking about it, it's all VW and Audi models that was skirting the emission regulations :facepalm: 

Then Maher said one of the car he owns is an Audi and he was wondering if he should get rid of it :facepalm: I'm pretty sure 99.9999999999999% the Audi he owns is not a diesel and his car is just fine. :facepalm:


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

Stupid is big with this thread.

I mean forget about food and cigarette companies, poisoning general population by millions, this one is massive! 


Fvk me. :screwy::screwy:


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

J-Tim said:


> Stupid is big with this thread.
> 
> I mean forget about food and cigarette companies, poisoning general population by millions, this one is massive!
> 
> ...


----------



## Spoolin2Liter (Sep 10, 2014)

FastGTi said:


> How is it possible to spell it incorrectly AND correctly in the same image?


Just helps drive the point home. 'murica


----------



## mx5er (Apr 28, 2001)

OK, this whole thing has hit mainstream status now: http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/b2..._cc=__t___&_ccid=kbqew7.nv9rww&fb_ref=Default

It's just a matter of time when a TDI owner, heck an owner of any VW or Audi will get yelled at the Target parking lot by some psycho. The psycho will see a TDI owner loading groceries or something and start yelling about how he/she shouldn't be driving their car.

Meanwhile a bro in his lifted Ford F-250 diesel with all the emissions equipment removed, just rolls right past while spewing black soot :facepalm:


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

mx5er said:


> Meanwhile a bro in his lifted Ford F-250 diesel with all the emissions equipment removed, just rolls right past while spewing black soot :facepalm:


You don't have to go that far. Just look at the soccer mum mobiles at your local primary school drop off in the morning. 
All those "cars" don't even need to pay extra tax for being "gas guzzlers" as they aren't classified as such.


----------



## Spoolin2Liter (Sep 10, 2014)

Posted this in another thread.

I have a toyota sequoia for the family that gets avg 15 mpg. Highway driving ill fill up 2 times for a total 50 gallons of gasoline per 600 miles. 

My TDI on the highway will get 650 miles per 14 gallons. 

Bring that up to the EPA and tell me which car is more wasteful..

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

Spoolin2Liter said:


> Posted this in another thread.
> 
> I have a toyota sequoia for the family that gets avg 15 mpg. Highway driving ill fill up 2 times for a total 50 gallons of gasoline per 600 miles.
> 
> ...


We all understand that there is a difference between fuel efficiency and allowable emissions of pollutants, right? RIGHT? It could very well be that your sequoia emits less pollutants per mile driven than the TDI.


----------



## dos (Jul 5, 2009)

J-Tim said:


> Stupid is big with this thread.
> 
> I mean forget about food and cigarette companies, poisoning general population by millions, this one is massive!
> 
> ...


Best reply in this thread, you are right bro. VW TDI's should have this stamped on the rear bumper;

Just like cigarettes, because I don't ever remember cigarette being marketed as "clean". Gotta a problem with food go to the FDA not EPA. That's like me yelling at my cable guy for a clogged toilet.


J-Tim said:


> You don't have to go that far. Just look at the soccer mum mobiles at your local primary school drop off in the morning.
> All those "cars" don't even need to pay extra tax for being "gas guzzlers" as they aren't classified as such.


I can't think of any "soccer mom" SUV's off the top of my head that skirt the weight besides the Excursion and Hummer from years ago. The thing you are missing is regardless if certain "soccer mom" SUV's bypass the gas guzzler tax or not they are still legal. If VW wants to build a 8 passenger 10,000 pound SUV they can. I don't understand the defense of a company that cheated its customers and every US taxpayer of at least 50 million dollars($1300 Eco credit for TDI's) is to try and place the blame somewhere else.


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

dos said:


> Best reply in this thread, you are right bro. VW TDI's should have this stamped on the rear bumper;
> 
> Just like cigarettes, because I don't ever remember cigarette being marketed as "clean". Gotta a problem with food go to the FDA not EPA. That's like me yelling at my cable guy for a clogged toilet.
> 
> I can't think of any "soccer mom" SUV's off the top of my head that skirt the weight besides the Excursion and Hummer from years ago. The thing you are missing is regardless if certain "soccer mom" SUV's bypass the gas guzzler tax or not they are still legal. If VW wants to build a 8 passenger 10,000 pound SUV they can. I don't understand the defense of a company that cheated its customers and every US taxpayer of at least 50 million dollars($1300 Eco credit for TDI's) is to try and place the blame somewhere else.


Don't waste your time arguing with J-Tim. Learned my lesson once, never again.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Tornado2dr said:


> We all understand that there is a difference between fuel efficiency and allowable emissions of pollutants, right? RIGHT? It could very well be that your sequoia emits less pollutants per mile driven than the TDI.


You're absolutely right on the legalities and I'm not defending VW, but judging by the numbers released the Sequoia would probably put out far less NOX but would certainly be much, much higher in CO2. As far as other controlled pollutants I have no idea, but CO2 is almost directly proportional to the amount of fuel burned. My '66 Beetle gets roughly 25mpg overall, so it would emit less CO2 than a brand new pickup, sports car or luxo-sedan that gets 20 mpg average. All of the _other_ pollutants would naturally be much higher in my car, though.


----------



## Katmandu (May 26, 2004)

Aonarch said:


> Diesel gate is absolutely everywhere. Online, newspapers, every media outlet, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> A lot of people know about this.


You'd have to live under a rock to not know about it.

It's one of the biggest corporate scandals EVER!


----------



## Katmandu (May 26, 2004)

randy said:


> Commonwealth , now known as South Coast VW.
> 
> Walked in on Thursday, approached by salesman. I asked him: will you take a TDI for trade in?
> He said: SURE!!
> ...


*How much are TDI's depreciating right now since Dealerships refuse to take them in on trades even ?*


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

Katmandu said:


> *How much are TDI's depreciating right now since Dealerships refuse to take them in on trades even ?*


I don't think it should matter. The people trying to dump their TDIs right now are the same people that were selling off all their stocks a few weeks ago when the market dropped and then complain about losing their money and how bad Wall Street is.


People looking to dump TDIs should be taking a wait and see approach. Everything right now is just speculation in the terms of how VW is going to fix this (i.e. recall/buy back etc). If VW ends up buying back the cars effected for say market value before the scandal, then the people trying to unload them right this second before the dust even settles deserve to take the hit. That's just my opinion. These cars are still perfectly safe to drive from a non-emission standpoint. 

Its not like the airbag or ignition switch can kill you


----------



## Katmandu (May 26, 2004)

*Hey Mods, this thread is getting so massive perhaps it needs it's own Forum.

There's so many different issues here that even Sub-Forums would be appropriate.

Seriously.*


----------



## Katmandu (May 26, 2004)

noatonement said:


> I don't think it should matter. The people trying to dump their TDIs right now are the same people that were selling off all their stocks a few weeks ago when the market dropped and then complain about losing their money and how bad Wall Street is.


VW's stock has take a 50% drop.

*http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/24/investing/volkswagen-vw-emissions-scandal-stock/*


----------



## dos (Jul 5, 2009)

Ross1013 said:


> Don't waste your time arguing with J-Tim. Learned my lesson once, never again.


Thank you, I should know better.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Katmandu said:


> VW's stock has take a 50% drop.
> 
> 
> 
> *http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/24/investing/volkswagen-vw-emissions-scandal-stock/*


looks like it's down 4.32% 

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=what+is+vw+stock+at


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> looks like it's down 4.32%
> 
> https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=what+is+vw+stock+at


I think it just shows the change from the last day of trading.
Look at a month ago- it was like 70% higher.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

Katmandu said:


> VW's stock has take a 50% drop.
> 
> 
> 
> *http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/24/investing/volkswagen-vw-emissions-scandal-stock/*



I was referencing when the dow had fallen like 1k points and there was a massive sell off. On paper you lose money but if you don't touch the stocks and they recover then you don't lose anything.

If TDI values have drastically fallen in the secondary market then of course on paper you're losing money if you're trying to sell, but if people hold out, take a deep breath and see what VW is going to do, they might not lose out as much as they are figuring, that's the only point I am making.


I think like someone mentioned, VW might offer either a buyback or a fix, customers can choose which one and I would assume if they offer the fix, they would include some kind of extended warranty or at least they should to try and win some customers back. On a side note, I work in a fairly conservative work place, finance, and the general discussion this past week was, "did you hear about VW, blah blah blah" and then next topic.


----------



## BetterByDesign (Sep 7, 2004)

Katmandu said:


> VW's stock has take a 50% drop.
> 
> 
> 
> *http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/24/investing/volkswagen-vw-emissions-scandal-stock/*



I think those shares outstanding represent only 10-15% value of the entire VAG.

Not that that's ok, but VW is well backed and needs to stop further contributing to the drama.


----------



## WinterWagon (Nov 7, 2012)

shawshank redemption said:


> I delivered a TDI Wagen 5 minutes before closing on the night before everything was announced. Customer called the next day to return the car.


I'd be holding onto that sucker with a death-grip. Why would you want to get rid of a car that is likely going to have the highest MPG available now that TDI is dead?!?!


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

WinterWagon said:


> I'd be holding onto that sucker with a death-grip. Why would you want to get rid of a car that is likely going to have the highest MPG available now that TDI is dead?!?!


TDI is not dead. The EPA already has a fixed Jetta TDI and theyre testing the emissions.


----------



## Seabird (Feb 8, 2002)

shawshank redemption said:


> TDI is not dead. The EPA already has a fixed Jetta TDI and theyre testing the emissions.


Source?


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

WinterWagon said:


> a car that is likely going to have *the highest MPG available* now that TDI is dead?!?!


/looks at car in my garage
//looks at above statement
///LOL


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

shawshank redemption said:


> TDI is not dead. The EPA already has a fixed Jetta TDI and theyre testing the emissions.


The EPA fitted one of these and, like magic, the car was fixed.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Lwize said:


> The EPA fitted one of these and, like magic, the car was fixed.


Oh I wish I had access to emission text equipment.
The added swirl of that device might actually help.. or make it worse.. who knows.:laugh:


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

BetterByDesign said:


> I think those shares outstanding represent only 10-15% value of the entire VAG.
> 
> Not that that's ok, but VW is well backed and needs to stop further contributing to the drama.


No kidding. 

It's yet another corporate scandal. There will be many more, because... 
1) The decision makers will rotate in and out.
2) The pressures from the market (government and consumer and business peers) will 'motivate' those with less self discipline to make regrettable decisions.
3) Today's media will sensationalize and milk the **** out of the story for ad revenue.
4) Interest will wane all around... especially in this age of media/information overload.
5) The next, big story will show up.
6) And we repeat the cycle.

VW will be fine. Just like Audi recovered from the 60Minutes stupidity. And Ford vs Firestone. And Toyota. And GM. And that's just automotive. If GM can see recovery from the mother of all stupidity, I'm pretty certain VW can, too.


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

Seabird said:


> Source?


internal source


----------



## Seabird (Feb 8, 2002)

shawshank redemption said:


> internal source


:sly:


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Seabird said:


> :sly:


internal source = gut feeling?


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

BRealistic said:


> internal source = gut feeling?


No. Internal memos to dealership management.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

BRealistic said:


> Oh I wish I had access to emission text equipment.
> The added swirl of that device might actually help.. or make it worse.. who knows.:laugh:


Added swirl only works on soft-serve.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

BRealistic said:


> internal source = gut feeling?


VW only has a stop sale order on 2009-2015 diesels.

2016 models aren't on that list.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Katmandu said:


> *Hey Mods, this thread is getting so massive perhaps it needs it's own Forum.
> 
> There's so many different issues here that even Sub-Forums would be appropriate.
> 
> Seriously.*


Little did I know what I was doing in creating this thread...


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> VW only has a stop sale order on 2009-2015 diesels.
> 
> 2016 models aren't on that list.


2016 2.0 TDIs wont be released until this is resolved.


----------



## variant138 (Dec 18, 2006)

http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?mai...1&products_id=42&zenid=BMC-,squ5lLb3jNYyKZJB1
Problem solved


----------



## sareth (Nov 28, 2008)

Looks like we are getting a straight software fix that will take care of it. Claim is that dealer will have information next week and we are looking at the fix being applied within the next "few" weeks.

All this crying about what they will do and all it takes is a software fix. No biggy.

http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/2015-09/diesel-skandal-volkswagen-nachbesserungsaktion


----------



## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

sareth said:


> Looks like we are getting a straight software fix that will take care of it. Claim is that dealer will have information next week and we are looking at the fix being applied within the next "few" weeks.
> 
> All this crying about what they will do and all it takes is a software fix. No biggy.
> 
> http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/2015-09/diesel-skandal-volkswagen-nachbesserungsaktion


If it's that simple, why did VW go through all the deceit? There has to be a significant trade-off with the software-only fix, namely being power and/or mileage will take a big enough dip that average people will notice.


----------



## sareth (Nov 28, 2008)

FastGTi said:


> If it's that simple, why did VW go through all the deceit? There has to be a significant trade-off with the software-only fix, namely being power and/or mileage will take a big enough dip that average people will notice.


i totally agree with you. This has to be some sort of PR piece. Making it sound too easy.


----------



## Jettavr666 (Dec 5, 2000)

sareth said:


> Looks like we are getting a straight software fix that will take care of it. Claim is that dealer will have information next week and we are looking at the fix being applied within the next "few" weeks.
> 
> All this crying about what they will do and all it takes is a software fix. No biggy.
> 
> http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/2015-09/diesel-skandal-volkswagen-nachbesserungsaktion


most likely this will only be a partial fix. VW didnt cheat for no reason. They did it because the emissions targets were very hard or impossible to meet with the the fuel economy standards they were trying to meet. fixing the emissions will most likely have negative effect on power, and fuel economy, especially on the non-scr equipped vehicles. On those I wouldnt be surprised if it is very difficult for VW to consistently meet emissions. Remember at least in the US the vehicle has to meet emissions or 8 years 80k miles, and things likethe particulate filter may not meet that if a software only fix is implimented.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

I'll let other TDI owners go first. My guess is that any software fix that is shipped to dealers within a week is not something I want installed on my car. My guess is they quickly assessed all available ECU maps for the one that best controlled for NOx at the expense of power/economy and are shipping a version of that.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

shawshank redemption said:


> 2016 2.0 TDIs wont be released until this is resolved.


the EPA has already said they're not certifying them yet.

i think it's either gonna be a massive buyback, or one hell of a campaign to replace parts and maybe even extend warranties on the emissions system components.


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> the EPA has already said they're not certifying them yet.


I know. The guy I quoted implied that one can simply go out and buy a 2016 because its not part of the recall. The only reason a 2016 is not listed on the recall is because there are no 2016 2.0 TDIs on lots. They certainly do need the "software" update and then will get the go ahead from the EPA.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

shawshank redemption said:


> I know. The guy I quoted implied that one can simply go out and buy a 2016 because its not part of the recall. The only reason a 2016 is not listed on the recall is because there are no 2016 2.0 TDIs on lots. They certainly do need the "software" update and then will get the go ahead from the EPA.


i didn't see his post. but yeah, the newer ones all have Adblue so i'd say all they need is the updated software to disable the program to keep them compliant at all times.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

sareth said:


> All this crying about what they will do and all it takes is a software fix. No biggy.
> 
> http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/2015-09/diesel-skandal-volkswagen-nachbesserungsaktion


Can you even read German? It says "It will likely be a software fix. VW expects it to take a few weeks before they can give a good time estimate on how long it will take to get the fix prepared and in place."


----------



## HalvieCuw (Mar 20, 2003)

GoHomeBroke said:


> looks like it's down 4.32%
> 
> https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=what+is+vw+stock+at


We have to buy VLKAY if we want VW stock here. That is down ~50%.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

atomicalex said:


> Can you even read German? It says "It will likely be a software fix. VW expects it to take a few weeks before they can give a good time estimate on how long it will take to get the fix prepared and in place."


What else can you glean from that? I'm not even gonna try! 

I tell people that the only time I get to use my German is when someone sneezes.


----------



## White Jetta (Mar 17, 2002)

I'm late to this party and I'm sure this has come up several times already. What happens if you need to go in for inspection right now? Will they fail you because VW, and you can't drive the car until fixed?


----------



## Cole Orlling (Mar 18, 2015)

sareth said:


> Looks like we are getting a straight software fix that will take care of it. Claim is that dealer will have information next week and we are looking at the fix being applied within the next "few" weeks.
> 
> All this crying about what they will do and all it takes is a software fix. No biggy.
> 
> http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/2015-09/diesel-skandal-volkswagen-nachbesserungsaktion


If it was a simple software fix with no other negative (very costly) impact, VW wouldn't have cheated in the first place.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Cole Orlling said:


> If it was a simple software fix with no other negative (very costly) impact, VW wouldn't have cheated in the first place.


yep.... why go through all the bad press if they could have fixed it before so easily?

Any software fix will result in something negative.
I suspect a drop in power, economy... *and *some expensive emission parts will have very short lives.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

White Jetta said:


> I'm late to this party and I'm sure this has come up several times already. What happens if you need to go in for inspection right now? Will they fail you because VW, and you can't drive the car until fixed?


I know you're just generalizing, but they wouldn't fail because they're VWs, rather because that specific engine won't pass emissions. 

Each state would probably deal with it differently, but it's one of the big reasons VW is in trouble right now. Nobody knows how this is going to play out. Turbio! Thinks it's going to have to be a buyback program a-la Toyota Tacoma, but that's not yet clear. 

The cars with urea injection (2015 cars) will have an easier time of it, but the earlier non-urea injection cars might either require a retrofit buyback or something else entirely, such as a vastly extended warranty because of the huge additional load on the particulate filters and whatnot.


----------



## Merckx (Apr 20, 2002)

that brings up a good point...why DID they cheat?

I'm guessing they got greedy with high mpg figures, and wanted the cars to be in the high 40s mpg range...


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

White Jetta said:


> I'm late to this party and I'm sure this has come up several times already. What happens if you need to go in for inspection right now? Will they fail you because VW, and you can't drive the car until fixed?


I don't know about your state, but in the People's Republic of California, the car gets scanned and that's about it. The logic there is that it if was able to pass the test by design when new, and nothing is reported failed, everything is in order. Your mileage may vary, etc, but you should be fine in the short term. 

When the official recall comes out, you might have to have it done before it'll pass smog. In the mean time were in limbo waiting to hear more. 



Merckx said:


> that brings up a good point...why DID they cheat?
> 
> I'm guessing they got greedy with high mpg figures, and wanted the cars to be in the high 40s mpg range...


There is no need to guess. It's an emissions issue, specifically NOx.


----------



## sareth (Nov 28, 2008)

atomicalex said:


> Can you even read German? It says "It will likely be a software fix. VW expects it to take a few weeks before they can give a good time estimate on how long it will take to get the fix prepared and in place."


Fluent. Not sure how what you just posted is any different. But "A" for effort kid.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

sareth said:


> Fluent. Not sure how what you just posted is any different. But "A" for effort kid.


You posited that it will be a software fix. No one can state that absolutely yet. There is also a big difference between it will be ready in a week and it will be a week before we can let you know when it will be ready.

There's a lot of difference.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

sareth said:


> Fluent. Not sure how what you just posted is any different. But "A" for effort kid.


I'm going out on a limb and am gonna say you don't know where she's lived, what she does and where she's worked. :laugh:


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

I just read the fix will involve dealers replacing the engine oil with two quarts of sodium silicate solution and then running the engine for up to seven minutes.


----------



## sareth (Nov 28, 2008)

atomicalex said:


> You posited that it will be a software fix. No one can state that absolutely yet. There is also a big difference between it will be ready in a week and it will be a week before we can let you know when it will be ready.
> 
> There's a lot of difference.


I posted what the article said which states a software fix is in the works. Not sure why the hostility. I do not claim to know more then the article says.

I do love how they say "Der Konzern sagt jetzt die kostenfreie Beseitigung der Softwarefehler zu." "The company has agreed to a free of charge fix for the software ERROR".


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

BRealistic said:


> I just read the fix will involve dealers replacing the engine oil with two quarts of sodium silicate solution and then running the engine for up to seven minutes.


Ha! :laugh:


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

The finer points of english tenses are the hardest to master.


----------



## Ambrose Wolfinger (Feb 21, 2005)

Are there any non-VW dealers that are not taking or selling TDIs?


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

bill1975 said:


> Are there any non-VW dealers that are not taking or selling TDIs?


I haven't called or checked personally, but has CarMax stopped selling or taking TDI's in as well? Everytime I've browsed a CarMax lot, they typically always have a hand full of TDI's in stock.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

Cutandthrust said:


> I haven't called or checked personally, but has CarMax stopped selling or taking TDI's in as well? Everytime I've browsed a CarMax lot, they typically always have a hand full of TDI's in stock.


Carmax still shows TDI's for sale locally (SoCal). I believe it was only VW that stopped selling used TDI's that are affected.


----------



## Ambrose Wolfinger (Feb 21, 2005)

I would think other dealers would stop taking them on trades, or at least offer very little.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

bill1975 said:


> I would think other dealers would stop taking them on trades, or at least offer very little.


They guarantee $4,000 more than 'blue book' at the local Kia dealer! :laugh:


----------



## Cole Orlling (Mar 18, 2015)

BRealistic said:


> yep.... why go through all the bad press if they could have fixed it before so easily?
> 
> Any software fix will result in something negative.
> I suspect a drop in power, economy... *and *some expensive emission parts will have very short lives.


^This. They knew how costly this risk was, obviously there was something very expensive that they were trying to avoid. 



Merckx said:


> that brings up a good point...why DID they cheat?
> 
> I'm guessing they got greedy with high mpg figures, and wanted the cars to be in the high 40s mpg range...


MPG figures aren't worth the ****storm they're in now. More to it than that.


----------



## Spoolin2Liter (Sep 10, 2014)

2013 TDI 45,000 miles.

manual trans 6sp with full set of winter tires and wheels.

50k.







:laugh:


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

Nice to see them TDI fanboys toning down their large egos.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

sareth said:


> Fluent. Not sure how what you just posted is any different. But "A" for effort kid.





sareth said:


> I posted what the article said which states a software fix is in the works. Not sure why the hostility. I do not claim to know more then the article says.
> 
> I do love how they say "Der Konzern sagt jetzt die kostenfreie Beseitigung der Softwarefehler zu." "The company has agreed to a free of charge fix for the software ERROR".


It's so very, very funny when someone cops this kind of condescending attitude on the internet, and you know exactly how clueless they're actually being, because you know what they don't about the target. You're earning whatever hostility you're perceiving. 

Sareth: if you have any sense, stop making statements and start asking questions. Respectful ones.


----------



## sareth (Nov 28, 2008)

Turbio! said:


> It's so very, very funny when someone cops this kind of condescending attitude on the internet, and you know exactly how clueless they're actually being, because you know what they don't about the target. You're earning whatever hostility you're perceiving.
> 
> Sareth: if you have any sense, stop making statements and start asking questions. Respectful ones.



Good thing we have people like you telling people like me whats up. Talk about condescending attitude.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

someguy123 said:


> Nice to see them TDI fanboys toning down their large egos.


Something which I never understood. To summarize my post in the other thread, I'm 5k miles into my first - and even before this fiasco, LAST - TDI.

- It *is* a PITA to find a top-tier gas station that (1) sells diesel (2) out of a functioning pump (3) with the correct nozzle on the pump
- Having to use an additive at every fill-up is tedious (4-oz Nalgene bottles, funnel, VW adapter to use funnel) and ridiculous
- The TDI engine is a complicated beast
- On the Jetta-VI at least, the PCM has a random number generator tied to the throttle response



Adam Sandler said:


> Diesel gas sucks my ass!


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

g-man_ae said:


> - Having to use an additive at every fill-up is tedious (4-oz Nalgene bottles, funnel, VW adapter to use funnel) and ridiculous


Wait, you seriously have to do this?


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

Yes. Many use a lubricity improver at every fill-up due to concerns about the low lubricity of ULSD here and the HPFP. I alternated between Stanadyne Performance and Lubricity formulae at every fill-up.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Cooper said:


> Yes. Many use a lubricity improver at every fill-up due to concerns about the low lubricity of ULSD here and the HPFP. I alternated between Stanadyne Performance and Lubricity formulae at every fill-up.


I doubt the majority of TDI owners use an additive at fillups if ever. Lots of these vehicles were sold to non-car people who think of them as appliances just doing the basic service requirements.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

sareth said:


> Good thing we have people like you telling people like me whats up. Talk about condescending attitude.


Just stop digging.


----------



## Basil Fawlty (Sep 7, 2003)

:beer:


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Basil Fawlty said:


> [picture of economy car engine bay]
> 
> :beer:


Ok.. what am I looking for here?


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

BRealistic said:


> Ok.. what am I looking for here?


The little decorative purple caps on the strut towers are shocked...SHOCKED...at this TDI scandal.


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

sareth said:


> Good thing we have people like you telling people like me whats up. Talk about condescending attitude.


LOL, YOU were the one calling one of the most knowledgeable and respectable members here "kid", so anything coming out of you is hence considered undiluted bovine excrement.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

GoHomePossum said:


> The little decorative purple caps on the strut towers are shocked...SHOCKED...at this TDI scandal.


I thought he was trying to tell us which exit to get off to come by for tea and biscuits.


----------



## nm+ (Jan 6, 2006)

sareth said:


> Fluent. Not sure how what you just posted is any different. But "A" for effort kid.


You have no idea who you are talking to do you?
Unless you work for VAG, you don't know as much as she does about this.


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

Can't we all just get along? Take long deep breaths and calm down.


----------



## sareth (Nov 28, 2008)

nm+ said:


> You have no idea who you are talking to do you?
> Unless you work for VAG, you don't know as much as she does about this.


Never claimed to know more. Do not know said person. Said person does not know me either.
Just posted German media article. Was questioned if I can even read German which came across rather rude. Responded in a derogatory way that was not well embraced and may have been harsh as it has been pointed out to me now. 
In an effort to get this thread back on track, I will no further comment in derogatory/condescending ways. I was wrong to use the word "kid" towards a person I do not know nor have ever interacted with before. 

Carry on.


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

g-man_ae said:


> Something which I never understood. To summarize my post in the other thread, I'm 5k miles into my first - and even before this fiasco, LAST - TDI.
> 
> - It *is* a PITA to find a top-tier gas station that (1) sells diesel (2) out of a functioning pump (3) with the correct nozzle on the pump
> - Having to use an additive at every fill-up is tedious (4-oz Nalgene bottles, funnel, VW adapter to use funnel) and ridiculous
> ...


Even not a TDI fanboy, I wouldn't be adding additives. Sounds like a waste of money.

I think the TDI fanboys got you good.:vampire:


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

Think about it guys. If VW knew how to fix this easily, they would have announced it when the bad news came out last week.

Truth is: there is no easy fix, and have the car drive as well, as efficient, and as durable as before.

This article stated they tried to fix this twice already before the shat hit the fan:
http://www.businessinsider.com/volkswagens-cheating-engines-cant-be-easily-fixed-2015-9


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

Not a big fan of CARB, but here is the letter they sent to VW calling them out on this:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/in_use_compliance_letter.pdf


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

randy said:


> Not a big fan of CARB, but here is the letter they sent to VW calling them out on this:
> http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/in_use_compliance_letter.pdf


Good post. The letter covers a lot of ground. 

Wish the CARB types were always so polite. You could almost feel them practicing their breathing as they edited that down. :laugh:


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

FWIW, I had the following "intermediate" update/recall performed on my 2013 Golf TDI last May:

_*ECM Software Update VW ACTION CODE 23O6*
START DATE 04-07-2015

*DESCRIPTION*
The vehicle's engine management software has been improved to assure your vehicle's tailpipe emissions are optimized and operating efficiently. Under certain operating conditions, the earlier strategy may have increased the chance of the vehicle's MIL light illuminating. If the MIL illuminates for any reason, your vehicle will not pass an IM emissions inspection in some regions._

After the update, I started measuring my MPG with the Fuelly app and I am pretty much in sync with the EPA estimate of 42 MPG on the highway and not in the higher 40s as many owners do report with their TDIs. So I believe VW actually made the move and turned the emission control system on full-time with the above recall but apparently that was not sufficient to please the EPA. Right now I speculate that I am not spitting out 40 times the allowed limit of NOx but I am certainly still above the limit. I am wondering if there are any reports on the NOx emission of our cars after the above recall. I saw this letter by CARB but I am wondering about actual numbers.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/in_use_compliance_letter.pdf


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

sareth said:


> Good thing we have people like you telling people like me whats up. Talk about condescending attitude.


You're earning it.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/27/business/as-vw-pushed-to-be-no-1-ambitions-fueled-a-scandal.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=1

Wow the arrogance at VW Germany is just astounding. Not letting VWoA know what's going on until a day or two ahead the Friday bloodbath. Repeatedly excoriating testing agencies about how they were screwing up the test, didn't understand the intricacies of the emissions systems, meanwhile the whole time they knew had cheated and gotten caught. 

I mean really this is just the worst example of corporate arrogance and hubris. Whatever they get they truly deserve.


----------



## VeeRsixx (Jan 5, 2004)

Basil Fawlty said:


> :beer:


The purple things are called camber plates. The car is obviously a supercharged VR6 that someone sat a TDI engine cover on top of. You can see the VR6 manifold change-over valve at the lower right (black circular thing). Also, the crank-case vent tube goes into a catch can.


IN on Dieselgate because my gf has a TDI Jetta that i work on. I was thinking about debadging... :laugh:


----------



## MeineFolks'wagen (May 8, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> I don't know about your state, but in the People's Republic of California, the car gets scanned and that's about it. The logic there is that it if was able to pass the test by design when new, and nothing is reported failed, everything is in order. Your mileage may vary, etc, but you should be fine in the short term.
> 
> When the official recall comes out, you might have to have it done before it'll pass smog. In the mean time were in limbo waiting to hear more.
> 
> ...


Yep, I was an inspector at the VW dealership I used to work at here in Texas. They just get plugged into the computer via OBD port and as long as it checks, it passes. I don't see this really changing much since it's the individual states doing the local emission checks. Unless the states come out with new regs specifically targeting Volkswagen and decide to rewrite all of their software and what not, I don't see anything really changing. I guess we'll see what happens.


----------



## Ambrose Wolfinger (Feb 21, 2005)

So, VW had the opportunity to use BlueTec technology developed by Mercedes. Yet, they went ahead with their own technology. I'm guessing Mercedes has not been caught up in this and their diesel engines are able to run cleaner?


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

MeineFolks'wagen said:


> Yep, I was an inspector at the VW dealership I used to work at here in Texas. They just get plugged into the computer via OBD port and as long as it checks, it passes. I don't see this really changing much since it's the individual states doing the local emission checks. Unless the states come out with new regs specifically targeting Volkswagen and decide to rewrite all of their software and what not, I don't see anything really changing. I guess we'll see what happens.


No way. Feds will insist on proof of software flash whenever VW figures out what they need to do.


----------



## DGVR6 (Oct 9, 2008)




----------



## sareth (Nov 28, 2008)

Official VW Diesel Info site: http://vwdieselinfo.com/


----------



## iliaonabike (Apr 30, 2011)

I might have all the emissions system garbage still attached to my engine...Not. EPA can go fack themselves.

Anyone read this article? http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150402-the-worst-place-on-earth 

That right there, is the price the planet pays for chit to get the "green" sticker. And I cant have my pcv, vta in certain counties of my state.... Please.

Discuss intelligently.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

iliaonabike said:


> I might have all the emissions system garbage still attached to my engine...Not. EPA can go fack themselves.
> 
> Anyone read this article? http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150402-the-worst-place-on-earth
> 
> ...


A diesel run without any emissions equipment is better for the planet then?


----------



## VWRedux (Jun 3, 2009)

*((((((A TDi MUST READ)))))*

I know there's a lot of heartbreak, anger and confusion over this whole mess. In the meantime for those who have not yet read these eye opening stories, I will post links below. Keep in mind that the first story could be a corporate contrived effort on damage control to possibly redirect the blame onto Mr. Winterkorn's subordinates. The other two are very revealing as they do try and explore possible problem solving scenarios for VAG. For those that know me, I went through hell twisting the corporate arm at VWoA to buy back my defective Jetta Wolfsburg DSG. In the end they did. I took the money and handed right back, buying a brand new Mk6 GTi 6spM/T ... :heart: it we do! 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/25/b...ems-at-volkswagen-start-in-the-boardroom.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/27/business/as-vw-pushed-to-be-no-1-ambitions-fueled-a-scandal.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/26/your-money/how-volkswagen-could-compensate-diesel-owners.html


PS: If anyone is contemplating a lawsuit over this, stay away from a *CLASS ACTION*, and go with a firm filing a *MASS TORT* instead! They're way different.


----------



## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

DGVR6 said:


>


Only the millionth time this has been posted.


----------



## iliaonabike (Apr 30, 2011)

2.0T_Convert said:


> A diesel run without any emissions equipment is better for the planet then?


Depends on your definition of better.. IMHO it's "better" for the planet in the long run than the toxic waste being dumped into fields and lakes and other water sources around the globe to make the batteries that go into those "green" electric cars (one example). All this stuff is relatively new, so I can only imagine what that spot in Mongolia will look like in say 10 years. That spot in Mongolia is just one of many that have yet to be exposed, no source, but a gut feeling. 
I'm sure china cares a lot about the environment and that's the only spot were they dump their toxic waste 

If I took a swim in that "lake", I'd probably gain some sort of superpower. Tempting.


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

iliaonabike said:


> Depends on your definition of better.. IMHO it's "better" for the planet in the long run than the toxic waste being dumped into fields and lakes and other water sources around the globe to make the batteries that go into those "green" electric cars (one example). All this stuff is relatively new, so I can only imagine what that spot in Mongolia will look like in say 10 years. That spot in Mongolia is just one of many that have yet to be exposed, no source, but a gut feeling.
> I'm sure china cares a lot about the environment and that's the only spot were they dump their toxic waste
> 
> If I took a swim in that "lake", I'd probably gain some sort of superpower. Tempting.


Pretty sure they don't use NiMH anymore, no?


----------



## DGVR6 (Oct 9, 2008)

DasCC said:


> Only the millionth time this has been posted.


Hopefully it'll get posted again for the 1,000,001 time.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

Ross1013 said:


> Pretty sure they don't use NiMH anymore, no?


It's not the batteries... it's the magnets for the motors.

Tesla went with standard AC induction motors in their cars because of it. They might be 3x heavier, but they don't require killing the planet to make them.


----------



## Chmeeee (Jun 24, 2002)

John Oliver on the VW story:






If you don't watch the whole thing, make sure to catch the last minute.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

iliaonabike said:


> Depends on your definition of better.. IMHO it's "better" for the planet in the long run than the toxic waste being dumped into fields and lakes and other water sources around the globe to make the batteries that go into those "green" electric cars (one example). All this stuff is relatively new, so I can only imagine what that spot in Mongolia will look like in say 10 years. That spot in Mongolia is just one of many that have yet to be exposed, no source, but a gut feeling.
> I'm sure china cares a lot about the environment and that's the only spot were they dump their toxic waste
> 
> If I took a swim in that "lake", I'd probably gain some sort of superpower. Tempting.


Are you ever going to visit inner Mongolia?

Many of us live in major cities where we don't want diesels contributing to smog. The EV advantage is if there is pollution it is somewhere else than right in my neighborhood.

The extraction and refining of oil for diesel isn't any less harmful on the environment either.


----------



## Cole Orlling (Mar 18, 2015)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Many of us live in major cities where we don't want diesels contributing to smog. The EV advantage is if there is pollution it is somewhere else than right in my neighborhood.


There's the problem with most people that I've encountered who are all about being "green." They don't actually care about saving the environment or whatever they think that they are doing, they just want to push all the bad stuff out of sight so they can feel good about themselves. I find it humoring.


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Are you ever going to visit inner Mongolia?
> 
> Many of us live in major cities where we don't want diesels contributing to smog. The EV advantage is if there is pollution it is somewhere else than right in my neighborhood.
> 
> The extraction and refining of oil for diesel isn't any less harmful on the environment either.


And I have a strong feeling this is why there is so much uproar over this fiasco. As long as it isn't in YOUR backyard, who cares? 

That and the fact that a majority of TDI people (whether they care to admit it or not) were buying TDI's because of the personal financial "savings" vs saving the planet.


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

The scandal in 2 minutes by CNN 

http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/28/news/companies/volkswagen-scandal-two-minutes/ 

(hottie alert at 2:10)


----------



## Code Red! (Sep 22, 2011)

UncleJB said:


> And I have a strong feeling this is why there is so much uproar over this fiasco.


That, and prior to this VW was a relatively 'safe' company. Now they are just another company that does bad things, and a tarnished reputation can be hard to recover from.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

UncleJB said:


> That and the fact that a majority of TDI people (whether they care to admit it or not) were buying TDI's because of the personal financial "savings" vs saving the planet.


Lower consumption of fossil fuels has multiple benefits.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Cole Orlling said:


> There's the problem with most people that I've encountered who are all about being "green." They don't actually care about saving the environment or whatever they think that they are doing, they just want to push all the bad stuff out of sight so they can feel good about themselves. I find it humoring.


Having clean air here in the USA is funny?


----------



## Cole Orlling (Mar 18, 2015)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Having clean air here in the USA is funny?


At the expense of some other part of the planet? All for the sake of being "green?"


Yes


----------



## nemo1ner (May 5, 2004)

iliaonabike said:


> I might have all the emissions system garbage still attached to my engine...Not. EPA can go fack themselves.
> 
> Anyone read this article? http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150402-the-worst-place-on-earth
> 
> ...


This. 



UncleJB said:


> And I have a strong feeling this is why there is so much uproar over this fiasco. As long as it isn't in YOUR backyard, who cares?
> 
> That and the fact that a majority of TDI people (whether they care to admit it or not) were buying TDI's because of the personal financial "savings" vs saving the planet.


And this.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Cole Orlling said:


> At the expense of some other part of the planet? All for the sake of being "green?"
> 
> 
> Yes


Most of use are rational enough to pick the poison that doesn't impact our back yards. 

I don't want to see any environment destroyed but if it's a backwards country thousands of miles away my care meter doesn't budge much.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

Change of topic:

Being the 'VW Guy' in my extended family and at work, I've gotten a LOT of questions from people about this fiasco. If anyone from VWOA/VWAG is reading this thread, you really need to get some sort of commercial/full page ads/something in mass media that clarifies this* only *affects your *diesel cars*. At a family event last night only 1 person besides me knew that the problem was with diesel cars _only_. I took a quick poll and of the 15 adults there (myself included) only 1 didn't know much about the problems, and of the remaining 14, 2 of us knew it was only _diesel_ cars. Now I know this is a very very small sampling of people, but I'm betting this is pretty common.


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> Change of topic:
> 
> Being the 'VW Guy' in my extended family and at work, I've gotten a LOT of questions from people about this fiasco. If anyone from VWOA/VWAG is reading this thread, you really need to get some sort of commercial/full page ads/something in mass media that clarifies this* only *affects your *diesel cars*. At a family event last night only 1 person besides me knew that the problem was with diesel cars _only_. I took a quick poll and of the 15 adults there (myself included) only 1 didn't know much about the problems, and of the remaining 14, 2 of us knew it was only _diesel_ cars. Now I know this is a very very small sampling of people, but I'm betting this is pretty common.


Its being called dieselgate :sly:


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Most of use are rational enough to pick the poison that doesn't impact our back yards.


To claim this is a rational choice requires a very short sighted and small view of the world.

Inconsiderate or selfish might be better words to use in its place.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

Oh snap.gif

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/09/28/us-volkswagen-emissions-audi-idUKKCN0RS0Y720150928


> Audi (VOWG_p.DE) said 2.1 million cars worldwide were fitted with the software that allowed parent Volkswagen to cheat U.S. emission tests.
> 
> Some 1.42 million Audi vehicles with so-called EU5 engines are affected in Western Europe, with 577,000 in Germany and almost 13,000 in the United States, a spokesman for Ingolstadt-based Audi said on Monday.
> 
> Affected model lines include the A1, A3, A4, A5, A6, TT, Q3 and Q5, the spokesman said.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Surf Green said:


> To claim this is a rational choice requires a very short sighted and small view of the world.
> 
> Inconsiderate or selfish might be better words to use in its place.


There is nothing irrational about choosing the lesser of two evils. 

If we really wanted to be "green" none of us should own a personal vehicle. 

The inability to find a perfect "green" vehicle doesn't mean we can't make better choices such as a car that doesn't spit 40X the EPA allowed levels of NOx into our neighborhoods.


----------



## The Marty Show (Jul 28, 2011)

g-man_ae said:


> Something which I never understood. To summarize my post in the other thread, I'm 5k miles into my first - and even before this fiasco, LAST - TDI.
> 
> - It *is* a PITA to find a top-tier gas station that (1) sells diesel (2) out of a functioning pump (3) with the correct nozzle on the pump
> - Having to use an additive at every fill-up is tedious (4-oz Nalgene bottles, funnel, VW adapter to use funnel) and ridiculous
> ...


Why would you insist on a top-tier gas station for buying diesel? It is my understanding that gas stations are rated top-tier for the cleaning additives that are put into all octane levels of GASOLINE. If I'm wrong, I'll stand corrected, but it seems as if you're just making life more difficult for yourself.

Sent from my Galaxy S6 using Tapatalk


----------



## XClayX (Apr 30, 2005)

I'd be interested to hear how many people would be Pro Lawsuit(money back) vs Reflash/Fix vs combo. I think there's going to be a LOT of people go after getting a chuck of money from this yet not get their car fixed because they honestly don't care.


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

iliaonabike said:


> *I might have all the emissions system garbage still attached to my engine...Not. EPA can go fack themselves.*
> 
> Anyone read this article? http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150402-the-worst-place-on-earth
> 
> ...



Discuss intelligently? With the guy who violates federal rules on emissions and thinks that it doesn't matter because only a few counties/munis in your state test emissions?

Federally mandated emissions controls are not supposed to be tampered with, anywhere. Counties with a certain population/# of car registrations have to test for emissions by law because if too many people are running cars that are out-of-whack, everyone suffers. Its the reason that even densely populated areas in the US are largely free from smog these days.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

2.0T_Convert said:


> There is nothing irrational about choosing the lesser of two evils.


It's not the lesser of 2 evils to push a process to China that will be done there with absolutely no regard to the environment.


----------



## freedomgli (Mar 26, 2002)

shawshank redemption said:


> Its being called dieselgate :sly:


But your average American doesn't know what a diesel engine is and probably just thinks Dieselgate is a German word like Fahrvergnügen.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Given that thier first software fix didn't fix anything.... 

And the corporate FAQ (in Canada) references loaner vehicles.... 

And news is that it will likley be more than a year to get the fix in order.... 

Buy back might be one of thier best ideas...


----------



## Code Red! (Sep 22, 2011)

E CODE said:


> Given that thier first software fix didn't fix anything....
> 
> And the corporate FAQ (in Canada) references loaner vehicles....
> 
> ...


I wouldn't be surprised if dealerships are also going to offer good trade options for folks, swap folks into a TSI version of whatever they have. May not be a company directive, but a good option to implement if someone wants to go that route before the fix is even announced.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

shawshank redemption said:


> Its being called dieselgate :sly:


Only some of the media is calling it that. But from my experience, all that most people know about this issue can be summed up with "VW & dirty cars".


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

For those of you in California with gas-powered VWs who don't want to be branded as gross polluters, *NOTATDI* is still available as a personalized license plate. :thumbup:


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

coderedcomputing said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if dealerships are also going to offer good trade options for folks, swap folks into a TSI version of whatever they have. May not be a company directive, but a good option to implement if someone wants to go that route before the fix is even announced.


That exactly what I'm trying to do  Right now, in Canada, VW is offering $2000 towards a new car... which isn't bad... 

I'd ultimatly want to move into a new TDI though... but I'll take a tuned TSI wagon instead... might save some money on the deal too.


----------



## Slipstream (Feb 8, 2002)

Hajduk said:


> Only some of the media is calling it that. But from my experience, all that most people know about this issue can be summed up with "VW & dirty cars".


Yep. The majority of the average American public hears "blah blah blah, Volkswagen... blah blah... scandal... blah blah blah... cheaters... blah blah blah, recall." 

The "something something diesel" part gets ignored because they don't own a diesel (or know what it is), but they assume that the size of the media circus means it affects all VWs.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

coderedcomputing said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if dealerships are also going to offer good trade options for folks, swap folks into a TSI version of whatever they have. May not be a company directive, but a good option to implement if someone wants to go that route before the fix is even announced.


I would. Right now if they take a TDI on a trade-in they have to sit on it. They can't sell it and VW won't help them as far as we know.

What will eventually happen I have no idea.


----------



## Code Red! (Sep 22, 2011)

E CODE said:


> That exactly what I'm trying to do  Right now, in Canada, VW is offering $2000 towards a new car... which isn't bad...
> 
> I'd ultimatly want to move into a new TDI though... but I'll take a tuned TSI wagon instead... might save some money on the deal too.


I'd be in the same boat right now, was very close to getting a '15 TDI Golf but opted for the TSI instead. The diesel system just looked more complicated, more possible items to go wrong with a car I was planning to own for 10 years, and now yay not directly impacted by the fracas. 

TBH if I was a TDI buyer, I would be having a serious discussion with my dealer about buying back the car, and just walking. Not very inclined to buy another VW after all this mess, even if they work it all out, there is that nagging doubt... after looking through VCDS, who knows what other mogwai are in there just waiting for a snack after midnight.


----------



## Seabird (Feb 8, 2002)

coderedcomputing said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if dealerships are also going to offer good trade options for folks, swap folks into a TSI version of whatever they have. May not be a company directive, but a good option to implement if someone wants to go that route before the fix is even announced.


I can see where the dealers would negotiate lower costs on non-diesel cars with the factory if they can get customers to swap and stay within the VW fold.


----------



## rick_chicago (Feb 12, 2002)

shawshank redemption said:


> Its being called dieselgate :sly:


The problem is widening: http://www.energypost.eu/mercedes-bmw-peugeot-models-consuming-around-50-fuel-official-results/

It may have started as "Dieselgate", but feels like only the first domino has fallen: http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/sep/27/if-this-scandal-goes-beyond-vw-the-wheels-will-come-off-an-entire-industry


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

rick_chicago said:


> The problem is widening: http://www.energypost.eu/mercedes-bmw-peugeot-models-consuming-around-50-fuel-official-results/This is exactly the opposite of the TDI issue, though. The TDIs get *better* real world fuel economy.
> 
> It may have started as "Dieselgate", but feels like only the first domino has fallen: http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/sep/27/if-this-scandal-goes-beyond-vw-the-wheels-will-come-off-an-entire-industry


I imagine that car sales in the EU will tank for at least a year over this. As in all car sales. Not just VW. 

In the US, not much. We have few alternatives to cars here.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

rick_chicago said:


> The problem is widening: http://www.energypost.eu/mercedes-bmw-peugeot-models-consuming-around-50-fuel-official-results/
> 
> It may have started as "Dieselgate", but feels like only the first domino has fallen: http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/sep/27/if-this-scandal-goes-beyond-vw-the-wheels-will-come-off-an-entire-industry


The first article doesn't present anything new. It has been know for a long time that EU's fuel economy tests are not representative of real world driving. The only difference know is environmental groups are using the VW scandal to promote themselves. 

The second article is nothing but speculation.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Seabird said:


> I can see where the dealers would negotiate lower costs on non-diesel cars with the factory if they can get customers to swap and stay within the VW fold.


That might just be the smartest thing for VW to do right now. 

If they could get one customer to stay within the VW brand at anywhere close to the break even point that'd be a huge 'win' for them right now. Multiply that times eleventy million and that's that. Of course it won't go that way, but any customer they can save at this point is huge.


----------



## adrew (Aug 15, 2003)

Hajduk said:


> The first article doesn't present anything new. It has been know for a long time that EU's fuel economy tests are not representative of real world driving. The only difference know is environmental groups are using the VW scandal to promote themselves.
> 
> The second article is nothing but speculation.


As I understand it, most of today's tests don't factor in increased highway speeds. I mean, my car is rated 30/38 (US) MPG and it is easy to exceed the city figure (I drive, uh, "spiritedly" and never see below 32-33 or so, even when it's very cold) but it will not get the highway figure unless I stay under 75 MPH. If I go 80 or 85 MPH (it has no problem doing that) it will only get low 30s. If I stay under 65 it gets in the low 40s, but most roads have higher speed limits than that around here so I usually just settle in around 75 for the best speed:MPG ratio.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Are you ever going to visit inner Mongolia?
> 
> Many of us live in major cities where we don't want diesels contributing to smog.


I don't plan on visiting NYC either.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

XClayX said:


> I'd be interested to hear how many people would be Pro Lawsuit(money back) vs Reflash/Fix vs combo. I think there's going to be a LOT of people go after getting a chuck of money from this yet not get their car fixed because they honestly don't care.


I'd like a buyback please. They sold us a car under false pretenses, and to make it right I believe they need to take them back. "Fixing" the car is going to involve a compromise, and although it remains to be seen, I would think it's going to be a fairly significant compromise (otherwise, why risk the whole company on a cheat). 

This is my thinking on it in a nutshell:

We bought our A3 because it had a winning combination of MPG, performance, and price, and of course, it was emission legal. We didn't buy it necessarily because it was "cleaner" but we certainly assumed it was clean and met whatever standards it was required to meet. If the car is not legal to drive on the road *as is,* then quite frankly, I'd like my money back. I don't think that's at all unreasonable, since this is not a "defect" or a "mistake" on the part of VW. It was a willful deception to make us think the car was something other than what it was.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

iliaonabike said:


> I might have all the emissions system garbage still attached to my engine...Not. EPA can go fack themselves.
> 
> Anyone read this article? http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150402-the-worst-place-on-earth
> 
> ...


That right there is, in fact, the price China is willing to pay to keep its exports up, grow its fundamentally rather weak economy, and get its oligarchs and government officials (when they're not the same thing) into f**k-you money a thousand times over. Mining is not an inherently environmentally unfriendly process, and in my last job I was involved in the permitting and compliance process for mining operations that were as low-impact as extractive resource production can possibly be. It is possible to mine for nickel, iron, lithium, neodymium, and oil without having dramatic impacts on ecosystems and public health, through adherence to certain techniques and best practices that come at a certain costs. It is not necessary to poison the water and soil to produce neodymium, it's just cheaper and quicker externalize the costs to citizens and ecosystems. Mongolia is a cesspit because rare earth producers disregard environmental regs and the (embarrassingly ineffectual and corrupt) Ministry of Environmental Protection, not because mining for raw materials requires unavoidable regional devastation.

But let's cut to the chase, shall we? What people say first is often what's really on their minds, so it's revealing that your first sentence here was an admission that you disregard the Clean Air Act and the agency that enforces it. Mongolia is obviously a self-serving rhetorical backfill, which you're adopting mostly because it puts a noble and insightful shine on your disregard for both the environment and the laws and institutions that exist to protect it. And gee, wasn't I just talking about the effects of that attitude?


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

btitus said:


> I'd like a buyback please...


That's fine and all, but if they can fix the car, fire everyone involved with the scandal and make the car perform as well as it did when you bought it would you then still feel slighted? (Serious question. There are no wrong answers. :beer

If I had bought one (I was pretty close a couple of months ago) and the fix worked with no detrimental effects I'd be OK with it. I liked the way the car drove, the way the gearing matched to torque curve and the mileage for such a fun to drive car was great. If I could retain that I would, because I simply can't find anything else like it in the marketplace for anywhere close to that price. (The Mazda 3 is probably as close as it gets, but I simply wasn't crazy about it.)


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

We have no good reason to give up our TDI. We are getting close to the EPA numbers, so it's possible our car is not going into defeat mode. Who knows at this point - I don't.


I have a different problem. I don't want to replace all of my tools. So we will likely stay in the VW family for a longish time. It's easier on me as the primary caretaker of the cars in the house.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

atomicalex said:


> It says "It will likely be a software fix. VW expects it to take a few weeks before they can give a good time estimate on how long it will take to get the fix prepared and in place."


aka: we're flogging our dyno calibrators around the clock until they produce... well... _something_. we'll see how many quit in a couple weeks, and we'll get back to you on whether our requisite miracle occurred on schedule


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

Air and water do mix said:


> That's fine and all, but if they can fix the car, fire everyone involved with the scandal and make the car perform as well as it did when you bought it would you then still feel slighted? (Serious question. There are no wrong answers. :beer


I would feel slighted in that I was made an unwilling participant in a deception that (IMHO) harmed the environment and lined VW's pockets. If I had been given the choice when we bought the car to either harm the environment or have less performance, maybe I would have still opted to harm the environment -- who knows -- but it would have been _my _decision and I'd have to live with it on my conscience.

In the best of all cases, maybe they _can _"fix" the car with no compromise to me, the driver. I highly doubt that that's going to be possible, but I guess we have to wait and see. If that's how it turns out, I would probably take it, but I would still want to see some kind of consideration for the "slight" I described above. In other words, "oops, our bad" isn't going to cut it.


----------



## XClayX (Apr 30, 2005)

btitus said:


> I'd like a buyback please. They sold us a car under false pretenses, and to make it right I believe they need to take them back. "Fixing" the car is going to involve a compromise, and although it remains to be seen, I would think it's going to be a fairly significant compromise (otherwise, why risk the whole company on a cheat).
> 
> This is my thinking on it in a nutshell:
> 
> We bought our A3 because it had a winning combination of MPG, performance, and price, and of course, it was emission legal. We didn't buy it necessarily because it was "cleaner" but we certainly assumed it was clean and met whatever standards it was required to meet. If the car is not legal to drive on the road *as is,* then quite frankly, I'd like my money back. I don't think that's at all unreasonable, since this is not a "defect" or a "mistake" on the part of VW. It was a willful deception to make us think the car was something other than what it was.


I certainly agree with you on the compromise. What are you giving up to get the car in compliance, your right it might not even be the same car (performance/feel) as you bought it. I'd be mad at that. Additionally, lets say they screw it up and all the TDI's of that era become lame ducks, drop value because no one wants a "fixed" TDI due to X reason.

I wonder how the flashed TDI's do in EPA tests? I assume they pollute more but you never know, just because it uses more fuel doesn't mean it burns any dirtier.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

btitus said:


> I would feel slighted in that I was made an unwilling participant in a deception that (IMHO) harmed the environment and lined VW's pockets. If I had been given the choice when we bought the car to either harm the environment or have less performance, maybe I would have still opted to harm the environment -- who knows -- but it would have been _my _decision and I'd have to live with it on my conscience.
> 
> In the best of all cases, maybe they _can _"fix" the car with no compromise to me, the driver. I highly doubt that that's going to be possible, but I guess we have to wait and see. If that's how it turns out, I would probably take it, but I would still want to see some kind of consideration for the "slight" I described above. In other words, "oops, our bad" isn't going to cut it.


Wrong answer. (Kidding!)  That's totally legit, I just feel a little differently. :beer:



XClayX said:


> I wonder how the flashed TDI's do in EPA tests? I assume they pollute more but you never know, just because it uses more fuel doesn't mean it burns any dirtier.


Incorrect. 

The fact that it would (in this scenario) use more fuel means that it indeed _would_ emit proportionally more CO2 into the air. The two cannot be separated. I said before (likely in this thread) if you compare my '66 Beetle with a brand new car that got that same 25 mpg overall, their CO2 output would be nearly the same, even though there isn't any sort of emission control devices on my car whatsoever. 

It's just something to think about. :beer:


----------



## Seabird (Feb 8, 2002)

It is an interesting conundrum in that the potential loss of power and performance is the opposite of what happened with the Mazda RX8 and Mustang Shelby Cobra from a few years ago, ie, actual HP not meeting the advertised numbers.

If VW has been advertising the TDIs as having xHP and Tq, but was really getting x*10%, I'm not sure if VW's fix that takes power levels down to advertised specs will absolve them of any further responsibility. If customers bought on an expectation of performance _feel_ after a test drive, does VW have a responsibility to maintain that impression after a so-called "fix"?


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

I think there's too many people on TCL that don't understand, some people truly buy cars because they think they're good for the environment. My dad bought his A3 TDI because it drove well AND was supposed to be a clean burning fuel sipping vehicle. VW didn't deliver one of those. Buyback all the way. It's not about greed for most TDI owners, it's about a company righting their wrongs and actually fighting to maintain their loyal fanbase they built up over decades. My dad said he was honestly sick to his stomach when he found out how much his A3 was polluting over the past few years. He's garaged it for the time being and driving his 73 Beetle.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

> The fact that it would (in this scenario) use more fuel means that it indeed _would_ emit proportionally more CO2 into the air. The two cannot be separated. I said before (likely in this thread) if you compare my '66 Beetle with a brand new car that got that same 25 mpg overall, their CO2 output would be nearly the same, even though there isn't any sort of emission control devices on my car whatsoever.
> 
> It's just something to think about. :beer:


Yes.
If you focus on the least toxic emission, your old VW matches a modern car output if the same amount of fuel is burned.
Stop the presses.
CO2 output had always been about reducing fuel consumption, where the other emissions were to reduce smog and illness causing emissions.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

Seabird said:


> It is an interesting conundrum in that the potential loss of power and performance is the opposite of what happened with the Mazda RX8 and Mustang Shelby Cobra from a few years ago, ie, actual HP not meeting the advertised numbers.
> 
> If VW has been advertising the TDIs as having xHP and Tq, but was really getting x*10%, I'm not sure if VW's fix that takes power levels down to advertised specs will absolve them of any further responsibility. If customers bought on an expectation of performance _feel_ after a test drive, does VW have a responsibility to maintain that impression after a so-called "fix"?


If after driving the car for 4 years, VW says to me, "hey guess what, you've been getting more HP/TQ than we advertised all along, so just suck it up," that's not going to fly AT ALL. Yes, of course they need to maintain performance after a fix, or it's basically a much different car than what we bought.

For me, it's about the willful deception and the heavy marketing of the very thing they were lying about ("Clean Diesel"). If this was an "honest mistake" then there would be a lot more willingness on my part to give the benefit of the doubt. Even then I wouldn't be too thrilled.


----------



## Double-V (Mar 20, 2001)

CK98Beeetle said:


> I think there's too many people on TCL that don't understand, some people truly buy cars because they think they're good for the environment. My dad bought his A3 TDI because it drove well AND was supposed to be a clean burning fuel sipping vehicle. VW didn't deliver one of those. Buyback all the way. It's not about greed for most TDI owners, it's about a company righting their wrongs and actually fighting to maintain their loyal fanbase they built up over decades. *My dad said he was honestly sick to his stomach when he found out how much his A3 was polluting over the past few years. He's garaged it for the time being and driving his 73 Beetle.*



:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Your dad is one seriously goofy fella!


----------



## freedomgli (Mar 26, 2002)

btitus said:


> I would probably take it, but I would still want to see some kind of consideration for the "slight"


I think you're going to have an uphill battle arguing that your feeling "slighted" is actual damages. VW can attempt to address actual damages but there's not much they can do to address perceived damages. Everyone is going to have a different impression of how badly their feelings were hurt and how many trees must be planted to make up for it. That being said, an EPA recall remedy or a small credit towards the purchase of a new car is likely all you'll get.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

CK98Beeetle said:


> I think there's too many people on TCL that don't understand, some people truly buy cars because they think they're good for the environment. My dad bought his A3 TDI because it drove well AND was supposed to be a clean burning fuel sipping vehicle. VW didn't deliver one of those. Buyback all the way. It's not about greed for most TDI owners, it's about a company righting their wrongs and actually fighting to maintain their loyal fanbase they built up over decades. *My dad said he was honestly sick to his stomach when he found out how much his A3 was polluting over the past few years. He's garaged it for the time being and driving his 73 Beetle.*


Screeches to halt



BRealistic said:


> Yes.
> If you focus on the least toxic emission, your old VW matches a modern car output if the same amount of fuel is burned.
> Stop the presses.
> CO2 output had always been about reducing fuel consumption, where the other emissions were to reduce smog and illness causing emissions.


Snarky much? My illustration was to show that VW's fix (assuming there is one) would reduce NOX but if the car used more fuel it would increase CO2, which is a "big picture" pollutant. I'm all for reducing NOX, and advocate for electrics all the time, but it's a tradeoff nonetheless.


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

xupeiran said:


> and generating 100x pollutants as the A3? :screwy:





Double-V said:


> :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
> 
> Your dad is one seriously goofy fella!


He is goofy sometimes. But he cares. He's been a VW/Audi guy since I was a little kid. And he feels lied to by a company that he's paid lots of money to over the years. Just one example of how these TDI people are pissed.


----------



## freedomgli (Mar 26, 2002)

btitus said:


> Yes, of course they need to maintain performance after a fix, or it's basically a much different car than what we bought.


Except your car's performance isn't a static figure. No matter what car you drive, it is going to perform different brand new vs. 5 years later regardless. Software recalibrations occur pretty regularly across industry for a wide variety of reasons. The mfr. is always making some sort of compromise with the software. In some cases, you get to decide whether to accept the new software calibration, but in other cases you might not have a choice. C'est la vie. In a class action lawsuit, the plaintiffs can make the argument that they've been harmed because they're getting something "less" (or in this case "more") than what they paid for. Judges and juries are unpredictable. And until a fix is made available you have no idea what actual damages you've suffered as the consumer.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

CK98Beeetle said:


> My dad said he was honestly sick to his stomach when he found out how much his A3 was polluting over the past few years. He's garaged it for the time being and driving his 73 Beetle.


Umm.... does he realize a 73 Beetle is going to be putting out far more pollution of every measurable type than his A3, which only fails in the NOx category of pollution?


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

freedomgli said:


> Except your car's performance isn't a static figure. No matter what car you drive, it is going to perform different brand new vs. 5 years later regardless. Software recalibrations occur pretty regularly across industry for a wide variety of reasons. The mfr. is always making some sort of compromise with the software. In some cases, you get to decide whether to accept the new software calibration, but in other cases you might not have a choice. C'est la vie. In a class action lawsuit, the plaintiffs can make the argument that they've been harmed because they're getting something "less" (or in this case "more") than what they paid for. Judges and juries are unpredictable. And until a fix is made available you have no idea what actual damages you've suffered as the consumer.


Again, I'm assuming that the performance hit would be significant. But you are right, until we know what the fix is, we are all in the dark.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

freedomgli said:


> No matter what car you drive, it is going to perform different brand new vs. 5 years later regardless.


That's a misleading statement. EPA regulations extend all the way to 120,000 miles and have since Tier 2 took effect in 2004. The car is _required by law_ to perform that well for about 10 years after the original sale, based on the average consumer that does 12k miles a year.


----------



## moses_dx (Oct 1, 2014)

What about legacy engines like 2.0 8 valve and 2.5 5 cylinder? I don't think they are green engines at all

Enviado desde mi D6633 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> That's a misleading statement. EPA regulations extend all the way to 120,000 miles and have since Tier 2 took effect in 2004. The car is _required by law_ to perform that well for about 10 years after the original sale, based on the average consumer that does 12k miles a year.


define "perform" as it relates to:

- law applicable to EPA regulations
- EULA from VW regarding ownership of vehicle
- Warranty language from VW

THAT is what VW is legally liable for.

good luck.


----------



## freedomgli (Mar 26, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> That's a misleading statement. EPA regulations extend all the way to 120,000 miles and have since Tier 2 took effect in 2004. The car is _required by law_ to perform that well for about 10 years after the original sale, based on the average consumer that does 12k miles a year.


Major emissions system components must perform reasonably for specified a period of time but the duration depends on exactly what component(s) we're talking about and where you live (CARB emissions warranty is longer than federal emissions warranty). Regardless, there is a range of performance that may be deemed reasonable in terms of hardware and the software calibration can also be changed to provide different performance provided it still meets the EPA requirements in effect when the vehicle was built. There is some wiggle room to move. And this is before we talk about all the other things besides the emissions system that can effect vehicle performance as it ages. Some engines perform better as they age and loosen up. Most vehicles suffer some performance degradation as they age and maintenance starts playing a bigger role.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

The engine in question gets a yellow or green particulate emissions sticker in Germany. 

An aircooled Beetle is so bad for particulate that they do not have a class for it. It would get a 0.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

atomicalex said:


> The engine in question gets a yellow or green particulate emissions sticker in Germany.
> 
> An aircooled Beetle is so bad for particulate that they do not have a class for it. It would get a 0.


Even the 1983 Beetles? (That was the last year in Germany.) What about the Mexican ones with injection and catalytic converters? 

ZOMG!!!   








xupeiran said:


> And, may I remind you, 73 Beetle is also made by VW?


May I remind you that the car in question literally built the _company_?  :beer:


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

atomicalex said:


> An aircooled Beetle is so bad for particulate that they do not have a class for it. It would get a 0.


That's awesome.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

http://vwdieselinfo.com/


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

the non-answers to the last and third to last questions on the faqs page made me chuckle.


----------



## Code Red! (Sep 22, 2011)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> the non-answers to the last and third to last questions on the faqs page made me chuckle.


"We don’t anticipate that customers will have any issues with state registration or inspection."

Well duh, the defeat device is operating exactly as intended, so yes you will pass emissions. 

:laugh:


----------



## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

vwdieselinfo FAQ said:


> *Am I at risk for not passing the emissions test for my state?*


No, we've taken care of that :laugh:


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Anything aircooled sucks. It's way worse than anyone realizes. 

Sorry. Catalyst does nothing for particulates


----------



## nemo1ner (May 5, 2004)

xupeiran said:


> and generating 100x pollutants as the A3? :screwy:


Much better for the environment.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)




----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

atomicalex said:


> Anything aircooled sucks. It's way worse than anyone realizes.
> 
> Sorry. Catalyst does nothing for particulates



Them's fightin' words, woman! *shakes fist

I totally get that it doesn't do anything for particulates, though. Not that I'd really expect the numbers on a long out-of-production Mexican car to be readily available or anything. C'est la vie.


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

xupeiran said:


> and making irrational decision. Do you really think these TDIs are more polluting than a 40-year old car? And, may I remind you, 73 Beetle is also made by VW?





AZGolf said:


> Umm.... does he realize a 73 Beetle is going to be putting out far more pollution of every measurable type than his A3, which only fails in the NOx category of pollution?





nemo1ner said:


> Much better for the environment.


Wait.....VW makes the Beetle? And I know it's more pollutant.


----------



## Doug Butabi (Oct 15, 2009)

atomicalex said:


>


TDI scenesters on bags will turn this into a "gang" and slap them on their cars in 3, 2...


----------



## RacerrRex (Nov 21, 2008)

Almost 100 pages in 10 days. 10 pages a day, is that a VWvortex record?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

You'reDrunk said:


> define "perform" as it relates to:
> 
> - law applicable to EPA regulations
> - EULA from VW regarding ownership of vehicle
> ...


http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/tier2stds.htm

The EPA standard is based on performance at 120,000 miles. If they are knowingly selling cars that pass emissions when new and then largely fail emissions before reaching 120,000 miles then they are out of compliance. In VW's case, it's a worst case scenario because they fail from the very first real-world mile due to the electronic trickery. What this might drive is a federal emissions warranty law for all vehicles nationwide. That would be in line with the fact that CARB and EPA have been marching towards alignment of federal law with what CARB has been doing for California.


----------



## Eye Candy White (Nov 9, 2006)

I've been loyal to VW since buying my first in Nov 2006 with the MKV GTI (I still own and daily drive today).

My wife was due for a new car this year, and in April we bought one of the first MKVII GSW's in my area (still haven't seen another actually). We were thrilled about the new chassis (MKVII is fantastic, for those that haven't driven it), and that we had a TDI, something that was exciting because it achieved fantastic mileage for my wife's 45 minute commute, and that it was also supposedly a really clean burn and "better for the environment."

This has all been very disappointing, that we could potentially lose out on the green benefits we thought were a part of this car (mileage and even potentially putting off fewer pollutants than other cars).

When we bought the car, I shaved "GOLF" from the rear hatch lid as I liked the cleaner look, but the wife made me keep the "TDI" because she wanted people to know she had a clean burning diesel that was getting great MPG's and doing better for the world than your average SUV or pick-up truck. Fast forward to after "dieselgate," this past weekend she asked that I go ahead and shave the "TDI" from the rear hatch as well, because she was now embarrassed to drive the car.

This pretty much sums it up for VW - turning once proud consumers of their brand and "green marketing" into customers who are flat out embarrassed to have people know they're driving a TDI and maybe even a VW in general.

I was pretty loyal to the brand, but this is a blatant lie that's been going on for years, and I'm not sure I can forgive it and continue to give them my business.

Interested to see VW's attempt to "make it right," but something tells me it likely will fall short of what's necessary.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/tier2stds.htm
> 
> The EPA standard is based on performance at 120,000 miles. If they are knowingly selling cars that pass emissions when new and then largely fail emissions before reaching 120,000 miles then they are out of compliance. In VW's case, it's a worst case scenario because they fail from the very first real-world mile due to the electronic trickery. What this might drive is a federal emissions warranty law for all vehicles nationwide. That would be in line with the fact that CARB and EPA have been marching towards alignment of federal law with what CARB has been doing for California.


passing emissions and performance are two different things.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

RacerrRex said:


> Almost 100 pages in 10 days. 10 pages a day, is that a VWvortex record?


No. 

The Show Us Your Moobs thread grew faster.


----------



## tomo366 (Apr 17, 1999)

354 Pages on TDI CLUB just amazing.....


----------



## Egz (May 30, 2002)

Doug Butabi said:


> TDI scenesters on bags will turn this into a "gang" and slap them on their cars in 3, 2...


I doubt it. They seem like the kind of person to gag at the sight of Comic Sans


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Eye Candy White said:


> I've been loyal to VW since buying my first in Nov 2006 with the MKV GTI (I still own and daily drive today)...


I'm afraid that this shows clearly why VW's cheapest course of action in the long run might just be to buy them back at a high rate. The "badwill" will linger for years, it's just a matter of stopping the bleeding and rebuilding as quickly as possible. 

I'm not going to say you're wrong, either.


----------



## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

RacerrRex said:


> Almost 100 pages in 10 days. 10 pages a day, is that a VWvortex record?


Apparently VW has 10 days for a fix as well (didn't see this posted)

http://blog.caranddriver.com/german...present-solution-to-diesel-emissions-problem/


----------



## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

Air and water do mix said:


> I'm afraid that this shows clearly why VW's cheapest course of action in the long run might just be to buy them back at a high rate. The "badwill" will linger for years, it's just a matter of stopping the bleeding and rebuilding as quickly as possible.
> 
> I'm not going to say you're wrong, either.


Then just sell them to China at a steep discount


----------



## nemo1ner (May 5, 2004)

Are there any numbers on NOx levels produced per gallon of diesel vs gasoline?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

FastGTi said:


> Then just sell them to China at a steep discount


A huge portion of China's pollution is from businesses and factories. They actually started restricting the sale of diesel cars in the 1990s and the latest news is China would rather push forward with electric cars now and that diesel passenger cars are only about 0.4% of total vehicle sales. This latest scandal could push it to effectively zero in China.


----------



## Jettavr666 (Dec 5, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> I'm afraid that this shows clearly why VW's cheapest course of action in the long run might just be to buy them back at a high rate. The "badwill" will linger for years, it's just a matter of stopping the bleeding and rebuilding as quickly as possible.
> 
> I'm not going to say you're wrong, either.


With no market for them, I dont see that being a response. IMO here is the best solution that will satisfy both owners and the EPA. 

1) Initial software based "fix" that will make them emissions compliant. This will most likely result in decreased fuel economy and power.
2) long term fix by changing software to include increased urea injection on SCR equipped cars. These cars may also get a auxiliary urea tank to satisfy potential range issues. as measure of good will, VW offers free lifetime urea fills. 
3) Probably the most complicated issue, VW retrofits LNT cars with SCR tech. Its somewhat clear now that there is no way VW can get the mileage it claims without SCR tech. Many questioned this back in 2009 when the newest diesels were released, and it now appears they were right. 
4) possible compensation to owners for lost value in TDI models. 

This route would be expensive for sure, but its probably the most likely to satisfy both government and owners, and still much less expensive than a worldwide buyback. 

Its important to remember this isnt just a US based issue anymore, its worldwide with anyplace that has similar emissions regulations, and the potential cost is huge, Think takata airbag recall huge.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

nemo1ner said:


> Are there any numbers on NOx levels produced per gallon of diesel vs gasoline?


The legal limit under Tier 2, Bin 5 (which most of the TDIs were certified under) is 0.07 g/mi. The VW TDIs are reportedly putting out 0.50 to 1.00 g/mi. The US does not adopt different standards for gasoline versus diesel or any other fuel. It doesn't matter _what_ fuel you certify the car with, ever since Tier 2 took effect, all fuels must play by the same rules here now. I believe the 2010 Prius however is certified under Tier 2 Bin 2, which is 0.02 g/mi but apparently the true pollution level on a Prius averages about 0.002 g/mi. So if we compare the Prius at 0.002 to the TDI even at 0.50, that means the TDI could be putting out 250x as much NOx per mile as a Prius. That really puts the word "clean" in perspective when comparing VW's "clean diesel" products to a genuinely clean car like the Prius.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

nemo1ner said:


> Are there any numbers on NOx levels produced per gallon of diesel vs gasoline?


its tough to make a 1:1 comparison, as the level of those emissions depends a lot on combustion temp (influenced by afr, egr, etc)

for example


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

Has anyone posted this yet? 



> If so, I'll delete it.
> If not, wow


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

Eye Candy White said:


> I've been loyal to VW since buying my first in Nov 2006 with the MKV GTI (I still own and daily drive today).
> 
> My wife was due for a new car this year, and in April we bought one of the first MKVII GSW's in my area (still haven't seen another actually). We were thrilled about the new chassis (MKVII is fantastic, for those that haven't driven it), and that we had a TDI, something that was exciting because it achieved fantastic mileage for my wife's 45 minute commute, and that it was also supposedly a really clean burn and "better for the environment."
> 
> ...


I am right there with you. We have a 2011 A3 TDI that my wife drives, and having been VAG owners for almost 20 years, it's extremely disappointing.


----------



## Jettavr666 (Dec 5, 2000)

nemo1ner said:


> Are there any numbers on NOx levels produced per gallon of diesel vs gasoline?


its very dependent on the engine, its fuel burn rate, etc, etc. NOx is produced during lean burn conditions, so in theory an old carbed car running rich is a gross polluter for sure, but may still register low on NOx emssions because it runs rich, albeit with huge CO, HCO, etc emissions.

edit, this previous post and graph explains it much better. 


ValveCoverGasket said:


> its tough to make a 1:1 comparison, as the level of those emissions depends a lot on combustion temp (influenced by afr, egr, etc)
> 
> for example


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

McBanagon said:


> Has anyone posted this yet?


Wow. Maybe they just discovered the history of the automotive empire and are upset with themselves for cruising around in an old VW Bus with other hippies back in 2012 going from Portland to Bonnarroo.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

McBanagon said:


> Has anyone posted this yet?


As the owner of one of the cars who is also very p-o'd at VW, I find this completely unnecessary. None of us wanted to be part of this situation, and until we know what the recourse is, finger wagging at DRIVERS of these cars is just asinine and childish.


----------



## Jettavr666 (Dec 5, 2000)

If anyone on this thread hasn't read the complete study that brought this whole issue to light I would highly recommend it. Its a PDF done by WVU, and even if you dont understand all the technical terms its a great way to understand what is going on.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Jettavr666 said:


> With no market for them, I dont see that being a response. IMO here is the best solution that will satisfy both owners and the EPA.
> 
> 1) Initial software based "fix" that will make them emissions compliant. This will most likely result in decreased fuel economy and power.
> 2) long term fix by changing software to include increased urea injection on SCR equipped cars. These cars may also get a auxiliary urea tank to satisfy potential range issues. as measure of good will, VW offers free lifetime urea fills.
> ...


They tried #1 already and failed (CARB already tested a 'fixed' car and while the emissions decreased... it was still no where near compliant) So onto #'s 2-4... 

I would bet #3 is going to be the real stinker... VW of Canada's emission website mentions loaner vehicles during the 'fix' so some serious hardware additions could be seen for certain. I've also heard rumours that the fix might take 1-2 years to complete - maybe even a year before they are ready to start...


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

McBanagon said:


> Has anyone posted this yet?


Hello sympathetic and concerned citizen of Portland

While cute, your town is home to Precision Castparts, a plant identified as being the top air polluter in the United States of America.

Your hometown plant is emitting cobalt, a chemical that results in respiratory effects, such as a significant decrease in ventilatory function, congestion, edema and hemorrhage of the lung.

Not to mention in 2012 Heinz Frozen Food Co. dumped 183,744 pounds of toxic pollution into Oregon’s Snake River Watershed, and Georgia-Pacific Toledo LLC dumped 123,040 pounds of toxic pollution into Oregon’s Yaquina Bay. Koch Industries, Inc., its parent company, was ranked #6 in the nation on the list of worst offenders for total pounds of toxics released. Both of these companies are lobbying heavily with great sums of money to stop the EPA clean water act.

And Portland was co-founded by a Massachusetts lawyer 

Perhaps it's time to consider a cleaner place to live.

-Another self righteous crusader


----------



## Doug Butabi (Oct 15, 2009)

McBanagon said:


> Has anyone posted this yet?


Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahaha

"And it was found by the Nazis. "

And it was found by the Nazis. [SAD FACE]

Pfffhahahahahahahahahahahhahaha


----------



## wolfcastle (Jul 28, 2006)

If someone put that nonsense on my vehicle, im pretty sure i would find out which car they drive and wipe my bare ass with the paper and stick it on their windshield.


----------



## adrew (Aug 15, 2003)

I like how it was printed with a crappy inkjet printer (horribly wasteful, uses disposable cartridges that only last a couple hundred pages).


----------



## jimb (May 29, 2000)

VW cheated with their TDI engine control software, but the world as we know it is not going to come to an end because of VW's behavior. 

I work in the oil industry, so I may sound a bit cynical, but this whole thing is blowing up in a manner that I find interesting and tragic all at the same time. 

VW lied about their TDI engines, but when I think about it the whole pretense of "Clean Diesel" is a lie. You *cannot *burn a carbon based fuel cleanly. The only thing you can do is set limits for the emissions, be it particulates, CO, CO2, NOx, SOx, unburnt fuel, etc. Then based on these limits, you control the air/fuel ratio in the engine and implement downstream systems (catalytic converters, particulate traps, adblue, etc.) to clean up the exhaust.

I'm also having a real hard time that consumers actually believed that VW's marketing slogan "Clean Diesel" is real. IMHO, there should have been an asterisk that pointed to some fine print which states "Cleaner than a diesel engine produced 20 years ago." There is no such thing as Santa Claus, there is no such thing as the Tooth Fairy, and there is no such thing as Clean Diesel. Get over it.

But since we live in a litigious country, the lawyers will have their day. I guess there just aren't enough ambulances for all of the lawyers to chase, unless they are diesel powered..., but I digress. In all seriousness, damages will have to be defined to both the consumer and the environment. I do wonder if the benefit of the improved fuel economy the TDI owners experienced with the current engine control software will be deducted from their settlements. I guess we'll have to wait and see how this plays out for the consumers.

With regards to the government, a corporation must never intentionally cheat to get around a law. VW should be punished for their actions, but the punishment should also fit the crime. $18 Billion is excessive. IMHO, so is $1 Billion, but again we have to wait and see how this plays out.


----------



## moses_dx (Oct 1, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> The legal limit under Tier 2, Bin 5 (which most of the TDIs were certified under) is 0.07 g/mi. The VW TDIs are reportedly putting out 0.50 to 1.00 g/mi. The US does not adopt different standards for gasoline versus diesel or any other fuel. It doesn't matter _what_ fuel you certify the car with, ever since Tier 2 took effect, all fuels must play by the same rules here now. I believe the 2010 Prius however is certified under Tier 2 Bin 2, which is 0.02 g/mi but apparently the true pollution level on a Prius averages about 0.002 g/mi. So if we compare the Prius at 0.002 to the TDI even at 0.50, that means the TDI could be putting out 250x as much NOx per mile as a Prius. That really puts the word "clean" in perspective when comparing VW's "clean diesel" products to a genuinely clean car like the Prius.


What about v8 hybrid trucks?

Enviado desde mi D6633 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

btitus said:


> As the owner of one of the cars who is also very p-o'd at VW, I find this completely unnecessary. None of us wanted to be part of this situation, and until we know what the recourse is, finger wagging at DRIVERS of these cars is just asinine and childish.


My thoughts exactly. Isn't isn't like the owners WANTED to pollute when they bought the thing. 



> While cute, your TDI is outfitted with a cheating device meant to elude emissions standards.


Not the owner's fault.


> Your car is currently polluting at rates higher than nearly any modern gasoline engine car today. 2-4x more than a Chevy Suburban


Not the owner's fault.


> Not to mention that VW lied to you and the public.


Not the owner's fault.


> And was founded by Nazis


OMFG, drop it already.


> Perhaps it's time to consider a different car?


FU, most of the owners probably have 20-30 payments left on a car they can't even sell.


> - A Sympathetic and concerned citizen of Portland.


Sympathetic to whom?


----------



## bzcat (Nov 26, 2001)

Jettavr666 said:


> With no market for them, I dont see that being a response. IMO here is the best solution that will satisfy both owners and the EPA.
> 
> 1) Initial software based "fix" that will make them emissions compliant. This will most likely result in decreased fuel economy and power.
> 2) long term fix by changing software to include increased urea injection on SCR equipped cars. These cars may also get a auxiliary urea tank to satisfy potential range issues. as measure of good will, VW offers free lifetime urea fills.
> ...


1. Has already failed (that was the existing recall for software update)

2. Is likely fix for SCR cars as you mentioned. And lifetime refill is the least VW can do.

3. This likely impossible because some cars just won't have the room under the hood for retrofit - if the cars were not designed to house a large urea tank, hard to imagine where they will put it... in the trunk? Witness VW's problem with MK7 TDI... which is not possible with either IRS or AWD. Extremely unlikely that they will be able to engineer a solution on MK5 and Mk6 Golf family and the even smaller Polo family. Plus it will cost several thousand dollars per car... some of the cars affected (e.g. 2009 Polo or Skoda Fabia 1.2 TDI) are probably worth less than the fix. My opinion is that VW will offer to buy back the non-SCR cars. It will be cheaper than trying to add urea tank and new exhaust system on every 1.2/1.6/2.0 TDI made between 2009 and 2015.

4. For cars fixed under #2, there will likely be diminished value claims, especially if the MPG drops significantly. So this is likely as well. For cars under #3 subject to buyback, probably not.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

jimb said:


> With regards to the government, a corporation must never intentionally cheat to get around a law. VW should be punished for their actions, but the punishment should also fit the crime. $18 Billion is excessive. IMHO, so is $1 Billion, but again we have to wait and see how this plays out.


VW won't be fined $18 Billion. Under the EPA's own rules, the most they can be fined is $3.2 Billion. And they will mostly likely be fined much less than that.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/09/volkswagen-wont-pay-18-billion/#more-1181018


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

bwhaahahahahahaha Oregon!

http://jalopnik.com/of-course-this-angry-note-to-a-volkswagen-tdi-owner-is-1733403658


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

jimb said:


> VW cheated with their TDI engine control software, but the world as we know it is not going to come to an end because of VW's behavior.
> 
> I work in the oil industry, so I may sound a bit cynical, but this whole thing is blowing up in a manner that I find interesting and tragic all at the same time.
> 
> ...


LOL, blame the gullible, childish consumer for "believing" the marketing campaign -- and we should just "get over it?" Come on. It doesn't matter if they called it "sparkling gold fairy dust diesel," the buyers of these cars assumed that they met the legal requirements for emissions. Relentlessly marketing it as "Clean Diesel" just adds insult to injury. 

Frankly if VW gets out of this without having to buy back every single one of these cars, they've skated. No sympathy for VW on this, sorry. They brought this on themselves. No one forced them to sell TDIs engineered this way -- they wanted to become #1 in the world, and they decided to cut corners and cheat to get there.


----------



## Doug Butabi (Oct 15, 2009)

McBanagon said:


> Sympathetic to whom?


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

bzcat said:


> 3. This likely impossible because some cars just won't have the room under the hood for retrofit - if the cars were not designed to house a large urea tank, hard to imagine where they will put it... in the trunk? Witness VW's problem with MK7 TDI... which is not possible with either IRS or AWD. Extremely unlikely that they will be able to engineer a solution on MK5 and Mk6 Golf family and the even smaller Polo family. Plus it will cost several thousand dollars per car... some of the cars affected (e.g. 2009 Polo or Skoda Fabia 1.2 TDI) are probably worth less than the fix. My opinion is that VW will offer to buy back the non-SCR cars. It will be cheaper than trying to add urea tank and new exhaust system on every 1.2/1.6/2.0 TDI made between 2009 and 2015.


I would think adding a system like this would be very complicated, requiring engineering, software development, fabrication, manufacturing, testing, training, certifications, etc., not to mention a whole program to roll it out to service departments, get the parts pipeline filled, etc. Certainly not a quick fix, and I agree -- a buyback may just be the easier option for them.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Clarkson chimes in.



> *Remember that CV you ‘adapted’? So stop tutting and chuckle at VW instead*
> 
> So Volkswagen has been caught with its trousers down in America and now everyone is running about saying the mighty German giant will be driven into the wilderness by fines, lawsuits and decimated sales.
> 
> ...


----------



## jimb (May 29, 2000)

btitus said:


> LOL, blame the gullible, childish consumer for "believing" the marketing campaign -- and we should just "get over it?" Come on. It doesn't matter if they called it "sparkling gold fairy dust diesel," the buyers of these cars assumed that they met the legal requirements for emissions. Relentlessly marketing it as "Clean Diesel" just adds insult to injury.
> 
> Frankly if VW gets out of this without having to buy back every single one of these cars, they've skated. No sympathy for VW on this, sorry. They brought this on themselves. No one forced them to sell TDIs engineered this way -- they wanted to become #1 in the world, and they decided to cut corners and cheat to get there.




If something sounds too good to be true, it usually is. I think that the TDI owners wanted to believe that VW could make an obviously dirty process clean, and VW took advantage of them. VW's "Clean Diesel" marketing slogan was a lie before VW ever put the cheat into their engine management software. So maybe VW should also be fined for false advertising, but that has nothing to do with the engine management software.

I also believe VW should be fined by the EPA for the software cheat, but that it should be fair. Our definitions of fair are different, but the final settlement will be somewhere in between.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Hajduk said:


> Clarkson chimes in.


I don't like him, but I agree with everything he said.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

jimb said:


> If something sounds too good to be true, it usually is. I think that the TDI owners wanted to believe that VW could make an obviously dirty process clean, and VW took advantage of them. VW's "Clean Diesel" marketing slogan was a lie before VW ever put the cheat into their engine management software. So maybe VW should also be fined for false advertising, but that has nothing to do with the engine management software.


The term "Clean Diesel" meant that it was certified to the same emission level as a gasoline engine. This was to differentiate these new diesels from the old ones which were certified to less stringent levels. It wasn't supposed to mean a zero emission vehicle.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

jimb said:


> If something sounds too good to be true, it usually is. I think that the TDI owners wanted to believe that VW could make an obviously dirty process clean, and VW took advantage of them. VW's "Clean Diesel" marketing slogan was a lie before VW ever put the cheat into their engine management software. So maybe VW should also be fined for false advertising, but that has nothing to do with the engine management software.
> 
> I also believe VW should be fined by the EPA for the software cheat, but that it should be fair. Our definitions of fair are different, but the final settlement will be somewhere in between.


Sure, it's a dirty process, but if there are particulate traps and the car is designed to periodically burn off those particulates, we expect that system to perform as advertised.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

Doug Butabi said:


> And it was found by the Nazis.


And was bombed to Hell during WWII.

And was resurrected by the British out of necessity. 

Thanks, Churchill. :wave:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Lwize said:


> And was bombed to Hell during WWII.
> 
> And was resurrected by the British out of necessity.
> 
> *Thanks, Churchill.* :wave:


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

You'reDrunk said:


> I don't like him, but I agree with everything he said.


Personally I think it's pretty funny and clever what they did. Was it ultimately wrong and should they be punished? Of course. They should not be punished to the brink of collapse though because if you look at the bigger picture, that will have far more drastic negative consequences (outside the automotive world).


I am much more interested to see how VW tries to fix the problem and how they will handle the PR and the US market going forward. That's much more intriguing than being concerned about the emissions. I am sure the same people screaming about emissions and how bad VW is, are doing all they possibly can to limit their carbon foot print and protect the environment. Gotta take the moral high ground and pretend like I truly care about the emissions.


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

Hajduk said:


> Clarkson chimes in.


 Pure gold. :thumbup:

Latest Yahoo article photo. Anyone know what spoiler that is?


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

noatonement said:


> I am much more interested to see how VW tries to fix the problem and how they will handle the PR and the US market going forward.


"We regret to inform you that VW is no longer going to sell vehicles in the US, Canada, and Mexico."
"In unrelated news the US, Canada, and Mexico are gaining two new automotive suppliers. We are proud to announce the availability of Škoda and SEAT."


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

moses_dx said:


> What about v8 hybrid trucks?


I don't know of any mass-produced V8 hybrid trucks, but how about we look at best selling non-hybrid trucks instead?










As you can see, the VW diesel Jetta has roughly the same smog rating of 6 as an assortment of other full-size truck offerings. The Ford is in fact at the _exact_ same emissions standard as the Jetta was certified. Because ALL vehicles under 8500 pounds play by the same rules, trucks do not get any special pass here. A truck with a smog rating of 6 makes the same amount of smog as an economy car with a rating of 6. Only the Ram Diesel had a worse rating, at 5, but we now know in the real world that Ram was likely 4-40 times cleaner than the Jetta in the real world.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

NeverEnoughCars said:


> "We regret to inform you that VW is no longer going to sell vehicles in the US, Canada, and Mexico."
> "In unrelated news the US, Canada, and Mexico are gaining two new automotive suppliers. We are proud to announce the availability of Škoda and SEAT."



Does the revamp include a B9 S4 with a manual :laugh:


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

You'reDrunk said:


> I don't like him, but I agree with everything he said.


I don't like him and I disagree with everything he said. Really though, it's to be expected from a guy who is a chain smoking, human-chimney to not care about what's the air we breathe.

>8^)
ER


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

UncleJB said:


> Latest Yahoo article photo. Anyone know what spoiler that is?


Ebay?


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Peloton25 said:


> I don't like him and I disagree with everything he said. Really though, it's to be expected from a guy who is a chain smoking, human-chimney to not care about what's the air we breathe.
> 
> >8^)
> ER


having gone up against the CARB as well as lobbyists in my state, I can tell you first hand most of the emissions laws today are partially based on science, and partially based on meaningless data/BS.

money and the more powerful lobbys run this country.....why do you think there's such a huge push for bio-fuels????


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)

You'reDrunk said:


> ...why do you think there's such a huge push for bio-fuels????


So corn farmers can burn diesel why 'growing' fuel?


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> As you can see, the VW diesel Jetta has roughly the same smog rating of 6 as an assortment of other full-size truck offerings. The Ford is in fact at the _exact_ same emissions standard as the Jetta was certified. Because ALL vehicles under 8500 pounds play by the same rules, trucks do not get any special pass here. A truck with a smog rating of 6 makes the same amount of smog as an economy car with a rating of 6. Only the Ram Diesel had a worse rating, at 5, but we now know in the real world that Ram was likely 4-40 times cleaner than the Jetta in the real world.


That, based on the lie, the FALSE data produced on the emissions test bed, it's higher now.

Also, recalls are voluntary, the way it is set up now. So, many people won't be
taking theirs in for the recall, and there is nothing anyone can do about it, with
the exception of CA and NY not renewing registrations because they require
an emissions pass certification, by their state laws. Other states and
Commonwealths that do not require diesel emissions, won't be effected.
So, one good thing here in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, I wont be
mandated to take it in for the recall; and I did not do the other recalls
either for the ECU flashing.


----------



## drader (Apr 3, 2000)

I read that if VW engineers new SCR - parts, like say a downpipe and smaller gas tank plus urea tank - they will have to get the cars crash tested and certified again; that would probably take way too much time, let alone money. They could buy them back and crush them, or sell them to less strict markets, but that would not exactly help their "clean" image. So it got me thinking: maybe they will convert the cars to gasoline. Everything is already engineered and certified for those vehicles, and we know they are as clean as it gets. The cost is probably in the ballpark, when you add in the cost for new engineering and manufacturing of a retro fix.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

Hajduk said:


> Clarkson chimes in.


Listen I love Clarkson as an entertaining car show host, but in any other venture he comes off sounding like a willfully uneducated idiot making just ridiculously stupid statements. And this is another in a long line of them.

So it's now the EPA's fault that VW willfully cheated, because we all know clean air standards are bs right? :screwy: Who needs unleaded gas, or catalytic converters, or any of the other measurable efforts that just in my part of the world have helped reduce car pollution 60% even though the number of cars on the road has more than doubled in the same time. 

But no let's let scientist Clarkson lead the revolt against emission standards. Who doesn't want to live in another Beijing? We've all seen how that looks right? Anyone clamoring to stock up on masks and move to Beijing, or even better have your own Beijing?

Honestly he's an idiot on these matters, and the equivalent of any idiot politician carrying a snowball into the senate to "prove" global warming isn't real.


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

*States without emissions tests/questions*

Just wondering (Canadian so don't know how it works there) but States with no emission tests - is that because they depend on the EPA's standard and figure the 10 or whatever years the cars should pass for is good enough?

If that's the case, aren't those states allowing those cars to skip emissions testing based on a false label?

My point is: Could those states say, "We assumed it met what the EPA said, get the recall/flash/work done." ?


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

Hajduk said:


> VW won't be fined $18 Billion. Under the EPA's own rules, the most they can be fined is $3.2 Billion. And they will mostly likely be fined much less than that.
> 
> http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/09/volkswagen-wont-pay-18-billion/#more-1181018


Nonsense, they'll be facing state and federal fines for their CRIMINAL acts. The EPA will be just the beginning. I don't think people understand the depth of their offense. One it's willful fraud, probably criminal. Two they willfully avoided emissions controls, nothing like Hyundai at all. Three they defrauded customers for years and years, with no end in sight if not for the NGO wanting to prove that diesel was clean.

That's the funniest part of this. 

Anyways Bob Lutz was on the radio today and said a conservative estimate of their liability is $15 billion in America, and $30 billion worldwide. Just staggering, and right inline with Bloomberg news from last week. Interesting interview for sure.

http://www.thetakeaway.org/story/what-volkswagen-can-learn-gm-and-chrysler/


----------



## mack73 (Jan 2, 2002)

JohnNS said:


> Just wondering (Canadian so don't know how it works there) but States with no emission tests - is that because they depend on the EPA's standard and figure the 10 or whatever years the cars should pass for is good enough?
> 
> If that's the case, aren't those states allowing those cars to skip emissions testing based on a false label?
> 
> My point is: Could those states say, "We assumed it met what the EPA said, get the recall/flash/work done." ?


I don't believe so. In areas without emissions testing, there is no obligation for you to fix your car to ensure conformance after sale. Yes you can't tamper with emissions control equipment. But if a component failed on day 1, and your vehicle became a gross polluter, you are not required to fix it. 

Emissions testing ensures that you fix the vehicle if the emissions control systems fail.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

vwwtchr said:


> Anyways Bob Lutz was on the radio today and said a conservative estimate of their liability is $15 billion in America, and $30 billion worldwide.


If the number of affected cars is 5 million (as one report from VW said; not the 11 million total sold) and America only has 10% of the cars, how is America 50% of the liability? Is it because our fines and criminal justice system is much less forgiving than across the EU member nations that adopted the Euro5 standards?


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

mack73 said:


> I don't believe so. In areas without emissions testing, there is no obligation for you to fix your car to ensure conformance after sale. Yes you can't tamper with emissions control equipment. But if a component failed on day 1, and your vehicle became a gross polluter, you are not required to fix it.
> 
> Emissions testing ensures that you fix the vehicle if the emissions control systems fail.



Makes sense. My thinking was it was something that should never have been certified, maybe considered tampered with before day 1, and they could tell people to fix it. 

Either way, what a mess!


----------



## vw oldfart (Jan 15, 2001)

vwwtchr said:


> Nonsense, they'll be facing state and federal fines for their CRIMINAL acts. The EPA will be just the beginning. I don't think people understand the depth of their offense. One it's willful fraud, probably criminal. Two they willfully avoided emissions controls, nothing like Hyundai at all. Three they defrauded customers for years and years, with no end in sight if not for the NGO wanting to prove that diesel was clean.
> 
> That's the funniest part of this.
> 
> ...


So you think VW will pay more in the U.S. than BP Oil did when they leaked 4.9 million barrels of oil into the Gulf of Mexico for three months?


----------



## bzcat (Nov 26, 2001)

vw oldfart said:


> So you think VW will pay more in the U.S. than BP Oil did when they leaked 4.9 million barrels of oil into the Gulf of Mexico for three months?


Bob Lutz was talking about VW's liabilities. Not fines.

BP didn't have to fix anyone's cars.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

JohnNS said:


> Just wondering (Canadian so don't know how it works there) but States with no emission tests - is that because they depend on the EPA's standard and figure the 10 or whatever years the cars should pass for is good enough?
> 
> If that's the case, aren't those states allowing those cars to skip emissions testing based on a false label?
> 
> My point is: Could those states say, "We assumed it met what the EPA said, get the recall/flash/work done." ?


If the state doesn't have a diesel emissions program, then no, period. All counties in PA
are diesel emissions exempt, and there are also those that are GAS emissions exempt.
They're not relying on anything from anyone, the state or commonwealth does their
own mandates on emissions tests. The FED has their standards to allow the car to be
sold in the US, and rely on data from the car MFR to provide that data. 

The reason PA does not have a diesel emissions program is because the FED doesn't
even have a specific test program, that's their language used in the PA emissions laws
for diesel engines, last I read it.

It is federally illegal to tamper with the emissions equipment, but in this case, it never
functioned properly to begin with.

Just think of ALL the people in emissions states that MUST take the car in to the
recall to be certified for registration renewal; that removed their DPFs, blocked EGRs,
and had the MILs tuned out so they pass emissions. They're just as guilty as VW,
they had their ECMs reprogrammed to lie to the OBDII machine. Just think of the
expense they'll incur when they take the car to the DEALER for the recall, and there's
no DPF, and the EGR system is blocked. THEY will have to have ALL that replaced
to comply. OR? Sell their car to someone in a state where emissions tests are
not done on them, and that is going to be the likely path if no buy-back of any kind
is done. The DEALER cannot do the recall with the DPF deletes, and EGR deletes,
so it has to be replaced, then the ECU flashed back to stock with the new program.
So, not only do they lose $600-$1000 for parts and ECU flashing, they now have to
pay the $1800+ to have it all replaced and fixed. 

You're a hypocrite if you're downing VW, and you've deleted your DPF and EGR.
You're more like ANGRY because now, you're gonna pay...


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

vw oldfart said:


> So you think VW will pay more in the U.S. than BP Oil did when they leaked 4.9 million barrels of oil into the Gulf of Mexico for three months?


We're paying for that at the pumps. Not sure where else, but here? BP fuels
are .10 to .20 more than anyone else, unless right next to another stataion, so
then they're both .10 more than anyone else.

BP: $2.859 to $2.899 gallon Diesel, 6 miles down the road.
Sunoco: $2.759, along with Sheets, and others local.

As I go farther north and east? $2.659, and down to 2.499 (cash only) gallon
at a Sunoco station in Lewistown, else $2.599.


So, yeah, we're paying for the spill, that the fed said not to pass those costs on
to customers, yet BP has the highest prices on fuel. For SURE in PA...


----------



## SeatIbiza1.8T (Sep 4, 2002)

vw oldfart said:


> So you think VW will pay more in the U.S. than BP Oil did when they leaked 4.9 million barrels of oil into the Gulf of Mexico for three months?


There is a HUGE difference between a catastrophic incident caused by negligent standards and intentionally defrauding most governments in the world, the effects might be worse in the first case, but from a legal point of view the consequences are quite different. 

VW's management operated with every intention of commiting fraud(defrauding their clients and the governments in which standards were violated, and that's a BIG deal, wereas BP was way too lax in it's controls, but did not intentionally contaminate the ocean, to the Law there is a world of difference between the two, hence the fines may vary accordingly.


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

PowerslavePA said:


> If the state doesn't have a diesel emissions program, then no, period. All counties in PA
> are diesel emissions exempt, and there are also those that are GAS emissions exempt.
> They're not relying on anything from anyone, the state or commonwealth does their
> own mandates on emissions tests. The FED has their standards to allow the car to be
> ...


Thanks for the answer.  Just trying to understand how it works there


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

PowerslavePA said:


> If the state doesn't have a diesel emissions program, then no, period. All counties in PA
> are diesel emissions exempt, and there are also those that are GAS emissions exempt.


That may not last forever. A quick check online shows Pennsylvania has plenty of EPA nonattainment areas too. The reason Phoenix and Tucson metro areas have California-style emissions stations now is because they had been classified as an EPA nonattainment area. Stricter emissions checks were needed to bring the smog down and have in fact made a huge difference in air quality in Phoenix and Tucson. It kind of sucks as an enthusiast because there's lots of aftermarket stuff out there which you simply cannot use when you live in an inspection area like this, but it's not like you can't still mod cars and keep them emissions legal. It _should_ have been the same thing for diesels - there should be plenty of ways to add power to a diesel while still keeping it emissions legal. VW just screwed everything up for everyone by shipping a ton of cars that were illegal from the factory.


----------



## jannikt (Sep 25, 2015)

vw oldfart said:


> So you think VW will pay more in the U.S. than BP Oil did when they leaked 4.9 million barrels of oil into the Gulf of Mexico for three months?


Estimated total cost of BP spill is $40 billion, including $18.7 billion fine. The rest is remediation costs, lawsuit settlements, etc.
I don't think VW costs will be that high, but they will definitely exceed the $7 or 8 billion they set aside. My "guesstimate" is 10-15 billion, plus loss of market share over the next couple of years which will reduce annual profits by another few billion dollar.

I guess that this will push VW into red for at least one fiscal year, and close to no profit for at least another year. Not enough to make them go bankrupt (German government wouldn't allow it anyway), but they will have to make important strategic choices, including brand divestitures, shutting down operations in less profitable markets, etc.


----------



## VWRedux (Jun 3, 2009)

*Here's What It May Cost To Fix The TDi Mess*

HERE'S WHAT IT MIGHT COST VW TO FIX THE DIESEL MESS
By Aaron Cole / TTAC / 9/26/15










In all reality, Volkswagen probably won’t pay $37,500 for each car that cheated its way through U.S. emissions standards, but the German automaker will probably pay thousands for each car to fit a device that would clean up their acts.

The presumed fix would come by retrofitting a Selective Catalytic Reduction (Adblue or urea) system although that wouldn’t be the only fix necessary. Researchers discovered that the Passat TDI that they tested, fitted with the SCR system, was 5 to 20 times over the NO limit — less than the 10 to 40 times by the lean NO filter cars, but still illegal.

The long list of items needed to fit models of the Volkswagen Golf, Jetta, Beetle and Audi A3 doesn’t include the engineering needed to retrofit the cars and the costs to crash test the models after the significant modifications. That’ll add hundreds of millions to the bottom line.

Our own Bozi Tatarevic provided his preliminary list of additions (retail prices) that would be needed for each car based on the systems included in the Passat TDI — which still didn’t pass:

• Cooler ($361)
• Aftertreatment Fuel Tank ($534)
• Dosing Valve ($240)
• DPFE ($105)
• Temperature Sensor ($171)
• EGR ($401)
• Catalyst ($688)
Total = $2,500
Labor = $1,000 est
TOTAL = $3,500 per car

Conservative Estimate: $3500 x 500,000 cars = $1,750,000,000.00 not including FDA fines, Attorney Fees, Mass Tort Settlements, Buy Backs, etc etc

Bozi points out that the urea tank most likely couldn’t be installed into the rear trunks due to the corrosive nature of the fluid. The secondary tanks would likely need to be installed under the car, next to a smaller, also-replaced, fuel tank. That would be an additional cost to Volkswagen (hundreds of dollars for each car) and further necessitate all new safety ratings.

The parts costs don’t take into account the hours of labor, which for a Jetta is 6-7 hours to change the diesel particulate filter alone. Such a substantial retrofit on their cars could take dozens of hours, incurring thousands in labor costs that Volkswagen would have to reimburse its dealers for. Labor rates, typically ~$100/hour, would likely be less for Volkswagen and the automaker would only reimburse dealers for the completion time detailed in the recall order.

Any sort of recall repair work and would need to be weighed against the cost for VW to buy back its own cars, which for a 2009 Jetta TDI, starts at about $7,000.

Link: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/09/heres-might-cost-fix-vw-car/


----------



## spathotan (Jun 14, 2013)

VWRedux said:


> HERE'S WHAT IT MIGHT COST VW TO FIX THE DIESEL MESS
> By Aaron Cole / TTAC / 9/26/15
> 
> 
> ...


If this is even somewhat true one would think it would be alot easier and cheaper for VW to simply buy the cars back at maybe 15% over "blue book" value.


----------



## VWRedux (Jun 3, 2009)

Look again, I added some stuff! BTW, it will cost a hell of lot more if they bought back these cars... VW will resist this I feel.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

jimb said:


> the whole pretense of "Clean Diesel" is a lie. You *cannot *burn a carbon based fuel cleanly. The only thing you can do is set limits for the emissions, be it particulates, CO, CO2, NOx, SOx, unburnt fuel, etc.
> 
> . . .
> 
> ...


You're placing too high a standard on the word "clean."

The word is not an absolute, it's relative. The promise of VW's "Clean Diesel" slogan was not that it only emitted pixie dust and unicorn farts, but that it was a hell of a lot cleaner than the filthy diesel of yore.

Maybe "Cleaner Diesel" would have been a better slogan, sure. But I can't imagine anyone smart was ever fooled by the words "Clean Diesel."


----------



## freedomgli (Mar 26, 2002)

Chilcoot said:


> You're placing too high a standard on the word "clean."


It's like saying "clean coal." It isn't really clean, either.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

As a '15 TDI Golf owner, I was intrigued by this nugget at VW's new PR site:

_Right now, we’ve put a stop sale on all 2.0L 4-cylinder TDI equipped vehicles (new and certified pre-owned) and we’re working with the responsible agencies to obtain approval for the *MY16 2.0L TDI vehicles (which we believe do not have any of the issues the government has identified in other vehicles)*_

As best we know, is there any mechanical difference between the engine in a '15 TDI and a '16 TDI? If not, seems to me that, if VW's right about the '16 TDI being compliant, maybe the only thing between my '15 and compliance is a software update, one that's probably being applied right now to all the '16s stuck at port and in Puebla.

That of course doesn't resolve the potential performance and MPG issues, but it's something.


----------



## bzcat (Nov 26, 2001)

spathotan said:


> If this is even somewhat true one would think it would be alot easier and cheaper for VW to simply buy the cars back at maybe 15% over "blue book" value.


Exactly... I don't think the VW 1.2/1.6/2.0TDI without urea tank will be fixed. It is just a financially and logistically impossible task. 

EPA and CARB will force VW to buy back these cars in the US because they cannot be retrofit to meet emission. And these agencies have the legal juice to make it happen.

EU may or may not force a buyback... The EU emission regs are weak and enforcement is up to each individual EU states. It's likely that in a few months after the uproar dies down, Germany will let VW slide with just a large fine and recall to install software to run these cars at test mode all the time. Other EU counties will take their cue from the Germans. These cars will still exceed NOx limit but it will be less than before.


----------



## BetterByDesign (Sep 7, 2004)

vwwtchr said:


> Listen I love Clarkson as an entertaining car show host, but in any other venture he comes off sounding like a willfully uneducated idiot making just ridiculously stupid statements. And this is another in a long line of them.


I don't think Jerome understands how intentional corporate fraud is looked upon in North America vs. across the pond. Sure, Italy and Eastern Europe don't care so maybe VW should just buy them back and send them to the Bulgarian secondary market where they will be appreciated. 

Clarkson and his fan base like to sound clever and witty but that's about it.


----------



## spathotan (Jun 14, 2013)

The cost of retrofitting these cars is just half the equation. Imagine the logistics of the whole thing, dealerships around the country will be completely booked damn near forever.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

You'reDrunk said:


> bwhaahahahahahaha Oregon!
> 
> http://jalopnik.com/of-course-this-angry-note-to-a-volkswagen-tdi-owner-is-1733403658


Self-righteous idiots have overtaken my old hometown. :facepalm:

Meanwhile, this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/29/u...d-volkswagens-deception-cause-in-us.html?_r=1



NYT said:


> To estimate the harm in the United States, we used two different scientific models for the effects of nitrogen oxide pollution on human health.
> 
> One comes from a sort of natural experiment, when new regulations on power plant pollution caused some counties, but not others, to cut back on nitrogen oxide pollution. The counties subject to regulation reduced their nitrogen oxides emissions by 350 tons a year.
> 
> ...


All quite theoretical, of course. But it shows that Turbio!'s estimates were a bit off.


----------



## LindsayLowhan (May 29, 2010)




----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

Hot damn, I can't keep up anymore.


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

vwwtchr said:


> Conservative estimate of their liability is $15 billion in America, and $30 billion worldwide.


So.... VW will have to declare bankruptcy and will cease to exist?


----------



## dos (Jul 5, 2009)

VW will be fine. They must have known this was coming, just look at that Passat redesign, that saved a ton of cash.


----------



## iliaonabike (Apr 30, 2011)

To everyone who quoted and responded to my original post in a counter opinion manner, I just want you to know that all I was trying to do is burn some time and stir the pot a bit and get an intelligent conversation going. 

Yes I know my car is not emission compliant per federal law. Yes I know I'm an ******* for doing what I did to my car to make it that way, and no I'm not sorry.

All the people that were arguing against what I said, you win. I'll buy you guys a beer if I ever run into any of you at the car shows as I think some of you might need one. Some of you guys take the internet and other peoples opinions and views on things way too seriously :beer:


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

drader said:


> I read that if VW engineers new SCR - parts, like say a downpipe and smaller gas tank plus urea tank - they will have to get the cars crash tested and certified again; that would probably take way too much time, let alone money. They could buy them back and crush them, or sell them to less strict markets, but that would not exactly help their "clean" image. So it got me thinking: maybe they will convert the cars to gasoline. Everything is already engineered and certified for those vehicles, and we know they are as clean as it gets. The cost is probably in the ballpark, when you add in the cost for new engineering and manufacturing of a retro fix.


I see no reason why the crash testing would have to be re-done just because of some changes in the exhaust system. The body structure won't be changed.

The emission certification would have to be re-done ... this time under considerable scrutiny. That takes time and costs money.

There is no way they would do a drivetrain swap. Too much stuff would have to be changed to do it right.

For the LNT-equipped vehicles (Not Passat, not 2015-onward)

Option 1: Re-program the ECU to run in "dyno mode" all the time and supply LOTS of spare DPF filters and an appropriate extended warranty. Plausible and highly likely in my opinion. DPF will likely require very frequent replacement ...

Option 2: Retrofit SCR in some fashion. Fair bit of re-engineering involved and a fair bit of extra hardware required in the vehicle which it was never originally designed to have. It will take a long time (a year or two wouldn't be surprising) for this to be developed, re-certified, and implemented. This would overwhelm dealer service departments. I would place a low probability on this.

Option 3: Buy-back. This is likely the fastest way to make the problem go away. No engineering required, no re-certification required. Costly. Destructive to whatever brand equity and reputation that they have. Despite the cost and the hit to their reputation, I'd put a high probability on this.

Option 1 could be combined with option 3 ... Re-program, and give the owner the option of taking a buy-back if they don't like the outcome. I'd say this has a pretty high probability, too.


----------



## P-Body (Mar 18, 2007)

dos said:


> VW will be fine. They must have known this was coming, just look at that Passat redesign, that saved a ton of cash.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

vw oldfart said:


> So you think VW will pay more in the U.S. than BP Oil did when they leaked 4.9 million barrels of oil into the Gulf of Mexico for three months?


BP did not willfully spill the oil. There may have been negligence, and rules violated, but that's a far cry from purposefully trying to get around the EPA for 5-6 years, all the while knowing you're lying to the government and the buying public.


----------



## Jettavr666 (Dec 5, 2000)

GoFaster said:


> I see no reason why the crash testing would have to be re-done just because of some changes in the exhaust system. The body structure won't be changed.
> 
> The emission certification would have to be re-done ... this time under considerable scrutiny. That takes time and costs money.
> 
> ...


I dont see VW buying back the equivalent of two years of their US cars sales for this problem. Thats a hugely expensive proposition, as well as damaging to their reputation. For the cars already with SCR, I am fairly certain they will just be reprogramed to run the system more often, and just require more frequent Urea fill ups which will likely be complimentary at the dealer. 

For the LNT cars I think the 1st option and possibly second are more likely. Hell if the retrofit the SCR system mount it in the space of the washer bottle, and move that to the trunk with a plastic line. That solves the problem of the corrosive fluid inside the car. Additionally if the SCR system is simply supplementary to the LNT system it may require a fairly small reservoir.

Also remember that if VW buys back the cars in the US its going to feel pressure to do the same worldwide, which it cant afford, even as the worlds largest car maker.


----------



## P-Body (Mar 18, 2007)

GoFaster said:


> I see no reason why the crash testing would have to be re-done just because of some changes in the exhaust system. The body structure won't be changed.
> 
> The emission certification would have to be re-done ... this time under considerable scrutiny. That takes time and costs money.
> 
> ...


1 and 3 is the way this will go, agreed.

The longer they wait on buyback details, the worse it is. They need to act decisively and make it a buyback that makes people whole. If they do that, the damage is minimized in the long term.


----------



## Guvnor (Sep 30, 2011)

Good prognosis there. But any of the options is going to take some time to get the certification sorted. I feel like VW should be reaching out to customers by now laying out some short term options. If you're ready to move to another vehicle (and I'm getting there), then you're trapped with a car that can't be sold, except at a huge loss over FMV. A premium price against trade in on a GSW GSI would do it. Then VW can hold on to my TDI while they make their minds up.


----------



## freedomgli (Mar 26, 2002)

P-Body said:


> The longer they wait on buyback details, the worse it is. They need to act decisively and make it a buyback that makes people whole. If they do that, the damage is minimized in the long term.


How do you make somebody "whole" on a 5 year old used car? If anything, they will drag their feet as long as they can in the hopes the hysteria will die down and for people to forget about it. A buy back is possibly the worst case scenario for them because it's the most costly option and there's no good secondary markets to dump the buybacks on to recoup some of that money.


----------



## surefooted (May 21, 2001)

Hawk said:


> So.... VW will have to declare bankruptcy and will cease to exist?


:sly:


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Hawk said:


> So.... VW will have to declare bankruptcy and will cease to exist?


VW makes billions in profits each quarter.
I don't know how much liquid cash they have, but rest assured this won't bankrupt them unless VW wants to go bankrupt.


----------



## StringTheory (Jul 27, 2010)

BRealistic said:


> VW makes billions in profits each quarter.
> I don't know how much liquid cash they have, but rest assured this won't bankrupt them unless VW wants to go bankrupt.


VW has near 25 billions of euros in cash reserves. Net assets are over 350 billion.


----------



## cryption (Mar 28, 2006)

*VW will recall all 11 million cars worldwide*

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015...plan-idUSKCN0RT0OL20150929?utm_source=twitter



> Volkswagen announced plans on Tuesday to refit up to 11 million vehicles and overhaul its namesake brand to try to move on from the scandal over its cheating on diesel emissions tests.
> 
> New Chief Executive Matthias Mueller said the German carmaker would ask customers "in the next few days" to have diesel vehicles that contained illegal software refitted, a move which some analysts have said could cost more than $6.5 billion.
> 
> ...


----------



## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

did we discuss this already:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...uld-ban-28-million-diesel-vws-from-its-roads/
The German government has given VW until October 7 to present a viable solution to the "cheat code" diesel cars, or else the company's 2.8 million affected cars are banned from driving on German roads.

that's pretty ****ing big.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

cryption said:


> *VW will recall all 11 million cars worldwide*
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2015...plan-idUSKCN0RT0OL20150929?utm_source=twitter


But what is the actual fix??? Can't possibly be software, they tried that once before (with software that they took almost a year to create), and it didn't work. 

If it's 'just software' again.... how did they magically get it right after only a week? I have my guess.... neuter the power and mileage and hope no one complains.


----------



## cryption (Mar 28, 2006)

That's my concern, nerf the engine until it meets emissions standards. They came out with a "omg recall all the things" pretty quick.

Then again, if they hadn't come out with something by now - people would be wondering why they haven't said anything.

Also - do you think they're getting additional pressure from the EU?


----------



## Professor Gascan (Sep 11, 2002)

E CODE said:


> But what is the actual fix??? Can't possibly be software, they tried that once before (with software that they took almost a year to create), and it didn't work.
> 
> If it's 'just software' again.... how did they magically get it right after only a week? I have my guess.... neuter the power and mileage and hope no one complains.


You've talked yourself to the likely answer. My guess is the power and mileage will be brought in line with the advertised ratings of the car, and the emissions will fall along with it.


----------



## GruuvenNorth (Dec 13, 2006)

This was on the VW.ca site. Kind of made me chuckle because Canada. 




> VW Canada CEO Open Letter
> 
> 
> I want to address directly with all Canadians the recent developments surrounding Volkswagen and specifically the emissions compliance issues surrounding our 2.0 TDI diesel engines.
> ...



http://www.vwemissionsinfo.ca/


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

GruuvenNorth said:


> This was on the VW.ca site. Kind of made me chuckle because Canada.
> 
> http://www.vwemissionsinfo.ca/


She's just a German figurehead though... not actually Canadian... I'm not even sure she's IN Canada at all based on her LinkedIn info.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Professor Gascan said:


> You've talked yourself to the likely answer. My guess is the power and mileage will be brought in line with the advertised ratings of the car, and the emissions will fall along with it.


We can't really complain if the cars drop to 'advertised' levels... I guess. It would be pretty hard to argue that the lost 'extra' power and mileage you were getting in some way means they owe you something for something you shouldn't have in the first place?

I also find it intersting that the word used was 'refit' - which does seem to lead to some kind of hardware change? 

Either way:

- if the performance stays the same, VW still owes TDI owers restitution (diminished open market value, based on perception)
- if the performance is reduced to advertised levels, VW owes TDI owners restittion (diminished open market value, based on perception)
- if the performance is reduced to less than advertised levels.... VW is going to have numurous legal battles to overcome...


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

E CODE said:


> But what is the actual fix??? Can't possibly be software, they tried that once before (with software that they took almost a year to create), and it didn't work.
> 
> If it's 'just software' again.... how did they magically get it right after only a week? I have my guess.... neuter the power and mileage and hope no one complains.


Interesting how they use the word "refit" here. It implies something physical that would be "a lot of hard work," but then they don't give any detail. Of course if they are asking people to bring cars in in the next few days and weeks, it can only be software. My guess is that they will try a 2-step recall where they say: first, you can bring your car in right now, we'll whack the software, and you'll be running "clean diesel" for real, and then second, sometime down the road we'll have a hardware fix that will bring back the performance and MPGs that you're certainly going to lose with the ECU update.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

E CODE said:


> But what is the actual fix??? Can't possibly be software, they tried that once before (with software that they took almost a year to create), and it didn't work.
> 
> If it's 'just software' again.... how did they magically get it right after only a week? I have my guess.... neuter the power and mileage and hope no one complains.


my guess is one of two things:

1) swap out the ECM with a new one with the updated programming, thus eliminating the defeat program, as well as throwing in new exhaust components as necessary. all on VW's dime.
or
2) a quick fix, yet functional, Adblue setup is installed along with an ECU reflash/replacement to put it in test mode permanently.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

E CODE said:


> I also find it intersting that the word used was 'refit' - which does seem to lead to some kind of hardware change?
> 
> 
> - if the performance is reduced to advertised levels, VW owes TDI owners restittion (diminished open market value, based on perception)


x2

this looks to be the most likely scenario result. numbers will be reduced to what's advertised.


----------



## Midwesterner (Sep 9, 2003)

Software fix didn't work before and they knew it wouldn't work to completely meet standards no matter how much software tweaking they did. An SCR retrofit system was the only fix and they have one on the books ready to go that costs VW $350 per vehicle.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...rofit-diesel-cars-to-fix-test-cheating-module

Others are putting the costs much higher and the retrofit more extensive passed on a retrofitted Passat that STILL wouldn't pass with SCR.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/09/heres-might-cost-fix-vw-car/


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

E CODE said:


> We can't really complain if the cars drop to 'advertised' levels... I guess. It would be pretty hard to argue that the lost 'extra' power and mileage you were getting in some way means they owe you something for something you shouldn't have in the first place?


There is no way TDI owners are going to let VW redefine their cars' performance in terms of "advertised" levels. That would be the biggest slap in the face of all -- taking this situation and putting the onus back on the 'greedy' owner who was getting more performance than they "deserved." Sorry, NO WAY.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

btitus said:


> There is no way TDI owners are going to let VW redefine their cars' performance in terms of "advertised" levels. That would be the biggest slap in the face of all -- taking this situation and putting the onus back on the 'greedy' owner who was getting more performance than they "deserved." Sorry, NO WAY.


not gonna lie, i'd be interested to see how that legal battle plays out.


----------



## jsausley (Dec 2, 2011)

cryption said:


> *VW will recall all 11 million cars worldwide*
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2015...plan-idUSKCN0RT0OL20150929?utm_source=twitter


Going to be hilarious when they recall 11 million cars and about fifty cars show up. No one wants worse fuel mileage. :laugh:


----------



## sweatyworker (May 4, 2005)

Nothing really new here but you can see an interview with the guy from West Virginia University where the tests that led to this took place


http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2015/s4322087.htm





> Transcript
> 
> STEVE CANNANE: We're now going to cross to the man whose research triggered one of the world's biggest corporate scandals.
> 
> ...


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

GoHomeBroke said:


> not gonna lie, i'd be interested to see how that legal battle plays out.


The idea that VW could play illegal games with testing and then to 'get out of it' would be allowed to play games with "advertised" performance is just not believable. There is no way VW is squirming out of this that easily.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

E CODE said:


> But what is the actual fix??? Can't possibly be software, they tried that once before (with software that they took almost a year to create), and it didn't work.
> 
> If it's 'just software' again.... how did they magically get it right after only a week? I have my guess.... neuter the power and mileage and hope no one complains.


The initial software "fix" likely was a halfhearted attempt, in order to minimize customer complaints and minimize durability / warranty related consequences.

The calibration exists to make it pass the EPA testing ... that's going to have to be full time, no matter the consequences. Hopefully this is in conjunction with an ironclad emissions warranty: The cost to the customer of making a "check engine" lamp go away or to pass any required local emissions testing shall be zero. END. No skating around blaming the EGR filter failure and making the customer pay for that after a DPF failure (happened to a friend of mine). No time or mileage limitation, either.

I'm also extremely skeptical that they've gotten it right after a month ... let's grant them some extra time between when they admitted the issue (3 Sept) and now.

I agree with another post that this will most likely be a two-step affair; get something done right now to please the regulators, and get a proper fix implemented later to address any durability, driveability, etc concerns that come up.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

GoFaster said:


> The calibration exists to make it pass the EPA testing ... that's going to have to be full time, no matter the consequences. Hopefully this is in conjunction with an ironclad emissions warranty: The cost to the customer of making a "check engine" lamp go away or to pass any required local emissions testing shall be zero. END. No skating around blaming the EGR filter failure and making the customer pay for that after a DPF failure (happened to a friend of mine). No time or mileage limitation, either.


Agreed, there needs to be a lifetime fully transferable emissions warranty. This stuff is expensive and no average consumer is going to pay for it if they're not in a state that requires it.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

classicjetta said:


> Agreed, there needs to be a lifetime fully transferable emissions warranty. This stuff is expensive and no average consumer is going to pay for it if they're not in a state that requires it.


there's no way it's going to be a lifetime warranty for the emissions that can be passed on to the next owner. it's going to be limited by mileage, if anything. even with this scandal, there's only so much life in each part of the emissions system. if they do add an extended warranty, it'll most likely be for the current owner of the car and a mileage extension sizeable enough to cover the next few extra years of driving.


----------



## Jettavr666 (Dec 5, 2000)

btitus said:


> Interesting how they use the word "refit" here. It implies something physical that would be "a lot of hard work," but then they don't give any detail. Of course if they are asking people to bring cars in in the next few days and weeks, it can only be software. My guess is that they will try a 2-step recall where they say: first, you can bring your car in right now, we'll whack the software, and you'll be running "clean diesel" for real, and then second, sometime down the road we'll have a hardware fix that will bring back the performance and MPGs that you're certainly going to lose with the ECU update.


I agree, however, using the world refit, may also just be the difference between using british vs american english. 



GoHomeBroke said:


> my guess is one of two things:
> 
> 1) swap out the ECM with a new one with the updated programming, thus eliminating the defeat program, as well as throwing in new exhaust components as necessary. all on VW's dime.
> or
> 2) a quick fix, yet functional, Adblue setup is installed along with an ECU reflash/replacement to put it in test mode permanently.





Midwesterner said:


> Software fix didn't work before and they knew it wouldn't work to completely meet standards no matter how much software tweaking they did. An SCR retrofit system was the only fix and they have one on the books ready to go that costs VW $350 per vehicle.
> 
> http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...rofit-diesel-cars-to-fix-test-cheating-module
> 
> ...


I havent read anything saying that they couldnt use both the LNT system and SCR on the same engine, which may make it slightly more effective if that is the route they choose. 

Anyway I stand by my statement that I bet we will see the LNT vehicles get an SCR system. I know some are clamoring for VW to buy back all 500k vehicles in the US but this is a worldwide scandal now, not just US, and VW isnt going to set the precedent of buying back 500k vehicles in the US, only to possibly have to do the same to the other 10.5m worldwide.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

GoFaster said:


> I'm also extremely skeptical that they've gotten it right after a month ... let's grant them some extra time between when they admitted the issue (3 Sept) and now.
> 
> I agree with another post that this will most likely be a two-step affair; get something done right now to please the regulators, and get a proper fix implemented later to address any durability, driveability, etc concerns that come up.


It seems impossible that VW could spend years on the emissions controls, as the motor reportedly began development in 2005 for a product that shipped in late 2008 and then further never fixed it from 2008 all the way through 2015, yet suddenly they can fix it in a month? I just don't see how that's possible.

I don't think the notion of a two-step fix is acceptable. It's already been made very clear that very few TDI owners will allow dealers to perform a recall fix at all. If it comes out that there will be two separate fixes, then the chances of it actually getting completed fall off even more. I'm sure regulators know that and will not want to sign off on any fix that says they're doing a little bit now and will fix the rest at some unspecified point in the future.


----------



## Jettavr666 (Dec 5, 2000)

GoFaster said:


> The initial software "fix" likely was a halfhearted attempt, in order to minimize customer complaints and minimize durability / warranty related consequences.
> 
> The calibration exists to make it pass the EPA testing ... that's going to have to be full time, no matter the consequences. Hopefully this is in conjunction with an ironclad emissions warranty: The cost to the customer of making a "check engine" lamp go away or to pass any required local emissions testing shall be zero. END. No skating around blaming the EGR filter failure and making the customer pay for that after a DPF failure (happened to a friend of mine). No time or mileage limitation, either.
> 
> ...


I think the main problem with temporary fix is that will that even satisfy the EPA temporarily. Emissions control devices are required to be effective for a certain mileage and length of time. If running the car in "emissions test mode" starts to kill components in a few thousand miles VW is going to have to find that second permanent fix very quick. Otherwise it wont just be owners getting angry, it will be government as well.


----------



## fknlo (Jun 30, 2004)

Professor Gascan said:


> You've talked yourself to the likely answer. My guess is the power and mileage will be brought in line with the advertised ratings of the car, and the emissions will fall along with it.


So what about the folks like me that rarely get the advertised ratings of the car? I don't live somewhere with 45mph speed limits on highways. 42mpg is the best I've ever gotten. I've gotten that a whopping 2 times over 63k miles. Low 30's aren't uncommon on trips to/from Denver in winter either. I'm not going to be at all happy with _less_ than what I'm already getting.


----------



## cryption (Mar 28, 2006)

VW knows how to make it pass emissions - their "defeat device" (i hate that terminology) is programmed to do exactly that. They could do a software fix where it simply runs in that mode all the time, and then warranty the related emissions devices for a longer period.


----------



## Jettavr666 (Dec 5, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> It seems impossible that VW could spend years on the emissions controls, as the motor reportedly began development in 2005 for a product that shipped in late 2008 and then further never fixed it from 2008 all the way through 2015, yet suddenly they can fix it in a month? I just don't see how that's possible.
> 
> I don't think the notion of a two-step fix is acceptable. It's already been made very clear that very few TDI owners will allow dealers to perform a recall fix at all. If it comes out that there will be two separate fixes, then the chances of it actually getting completed fall off even more. I'm sure regulators know that and will not want to sign off on any fix that says they're doing a little bit now and will fix the rest at some unspecified point in the future.


So whats the solution then? Because heres the problem. Even if VW says they will buy back the cars, VW doesnt have the power to force the owners to do so, and I seriously doubt the EPA does either. 

So then you move to plan B which is to fix the car. They know the engines can pass, so the EPA has two options, wait for a permanent fix, or do a two step affair to get it compliant asap.

Lastly you cant use message boards, even TDIclub to show what the "vast majority" of owners will do. Most people will get their cars fixed for two reasons. One, they just do what the notice says, and two, resale. A car without the recall performed will likely have little value on the resale market.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

cryption said:


> VW knows how to make it pass emissions - their "defeat device" (i hate that terminology) is programmed to do exactly that. They could do a software fix where it simply runs in that mode all the time, and then warranty the related emissions devices for a longer period.


That still may not satisfy regulators because people drive with the check engine light illuminated all the time, especially on VWs where it's commonplace to drive with the CEL/MIL on at all times. If the "fix" kills some component of the emissions system every 30,000 miles then what will happen is it will be legal for 30k miles, then never get fixed as the owner simply ignores the CEL for the rest of the life of the vehicle. They might put another 200,000 miles on the car with it spewing huge emissions due to driving with the CEL on. Alternately, the CEL will come on and they'll just gut the whole emissions system, permanently disabling the ability for the car to ever pass emissions again.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Numbersix said:


> Self-righteous idiots have overtaken my old hometown. :facepalm:
> 
> Meanwhile, this:
> 
> ...


Eh, only by 20-30%. That'll keep me in the majors at least.:laugh:


----------



## Jettavr666 (Dec 5, 2000)

cryption said:


> VW knows how to make it pass emissions - their "defeat device" (i hate that terminology) is programmed to do exactly that. They could do a software fix where it simply runs in that mode all the time, and then warranty the related emissions devices for a longer period.


But they really cant do that permanently. VW didnt do this stuff for no reason and it seems like the life of things like the cat converter and DPF would be drastically reduced if run in test mode all the time. 

Think if you have a gas car with a faulty precat 02 sensor that make the car run rich. Its very possible to kill the cat in 5k miles or less.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

fknlo said:


> So what about the folks like me that rarely get the advertised ratings of the car? I don't live somewhere with 45mph speed limits on highways. 42mpg is the best I've ever gotten. I've gotten that a whopping 2 times over 63k miles. Low 30's aren't uncommon on trips to/from Denver in winter either. I'm not going to be at all happy with _less_ than what I'm already getting.


given the amount of people who've seen much higher than advertised, and my own experience with the mileage i've seen, i'm more inclined to say this has more to do with how you drive than anything. the way i drive isn't light footed, but i still managed to see an average of 45 mpg over the month i had one.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Jettavr666 said:


> So whats the solution then? Because heres the problem. Even if VW says they will buy back the cars, VW doesnt have the power to force the owners to do so, and I seriously doubt the EPA does either.


Distinction without a difference; if you can't register a car, it's worthless. Unless you just want to park it on blocks in your front yard, you take the buyout. And DOJ can absolutely block registrations of TDI VINs nationwide.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

jsausley said:


> Going to be hilarious when they recall 11 million cars and about fifty cars show up. No one wants worse fuel mileage. :laugh:


People won't have a choice. They will be required to bring their cars in for the recall or most probably won't be able to register them for the following year.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

GoFaster said:


> I see no reason why the crash testing would have to be re-done just because of some changes in the exhaust system. The body structure won't be changed.


I'm no crash engineer, but I know we provide powertrains to those folks all the time to do crash testing. I think the need to simulate the total vehicle as sold during crash testing is to observe any issues that might not have been captured in the design/engineering phase, right?

The saddest thing about these events are:
1) All company workers take the burden of carrying this blame even though it was likely a tiny minority that perpetrated it. It's not fair to the majority that are trying to do a good job that is reflective of the personal pride they have.
2) Upper executives getting golden parachutes.
3) Grunts... that might not even be aware of the cheating... being tossed under the bus, because their group/team is responsible.
4) Mid level managers/directors being given a handsome payout to retire quietly (i.e. To keep quiet about it in fear of making a mess even worse in the PR world.).

One thing I read was that German law allowed action against people and not the company as a whole. The crappy thing in the US is how too often the executives retire with riches while grunts get the wrath of government, justice department, public, etc. Grunts don't make these type of decisions. The worse they will have done is to abide by such crappy decisions. It makes me wonder if the German culture makes it easier for underlings to march to such orders.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

vwwtchr said:


> People won't have a choice. They will be required to bring their cars in for the recall or most probably won't be able to register them for the following year.


gonna suck for the people who've had their diesels tuned. :laugh:


----------



## Jettavr666 (Dec 5, 2000)

Turbio! said:


> Distinction without a difference; if you can't register a car, it's worthless. Unless you just want to park it on blocks in your front yard, you take the buyout. And DOJ can absolutely block registrations of TDI VINs nationwide.


very true, but i would also be shocked if such an action occurred nationwide. There have been plenty of automobile incidents before that are arguably much more dangerous and affect more people than this.


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)

Turbio! said:


> Distinction without a difference; if you can't register a car, it's worthless. Unless you just want to park it on blocks in your front yard, you take the buyout. And DOJ can absolutely block registrations of TDI VINs nationwide.


I don't believe that there has ever been a 'VIN registration block' for the many, many, hundreds of thousands of vehicles that have outstanding safety related recalls that are still out there. How or why would this situation be different?


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

...And in one example of extremely bad timing, I just got this in my e-mail...












> Ribbon Cutting Ceremony
> Wednesday, September 30th. 12:00 p.m.
> 406 E. Lewis & Clark Pkwy
> As a preferred customer, we would like to invite you to take part in the historical Grand Opening of Sam Swope Volkswagen’s brand new dealership!
> ...



The tag line "Nobody Walks Away" could be changed to "Nobody Walks In"!


Honestly? I feel for the folks there. They had nothing to do with this mess and a lot of them are pretty good people. Maybe I should go buy a car now. Deals may be able to be had!


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Jettavr666 said:


> very true, but i would also be shocked if such an action occurred nationwide. There have been plenty of automobile incidents before that are arguably much more dangerous and affect more people than this.


yeah, but those never affected the environment. who cares if it kills people directly, we have theoretical figures that this might contribute to pollution which may kill additional people a year. make it a mandatory recall!!


(for the record, i understand it's a dangerous emission. and that it's also impossible to directly relate any extra deaths to this. VW polluted more than legally allowed, which _may contribute to more people dying_. notices the keyword "contribute". emissions aren't just a VW thing. what's to stop someone from throwing in the unmeasured amount of people who modify their diesels to spew that black smoke we see all too often?)


----------



## cryption (Mar 28, 2006)

vwwtchr said:


> People won't have a choice. They will be required to bring their cars in for the recall or most probably won't be able to register them for the following year.


I can't see that happening .... having been through the recall process with vehicles in the past ... and the "we're waiting on parts" I've gotten over and over again ....

Ask people with Takata airbags how their recall went. Parts for a fix on 11 million cars, distributed and installed in a year? Unpossible


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

fknlo said:


> So what about the folks like me that rarely get the advertised ratings of the car? I don't live somewhere with 45mph speed limits on highways. 42mpg is the best I've ever gotten. I've gotten that a whopping 2 times over 63k miles. Low 30's aren't uncommon on trips to/from Denver in winter either. I'm not going to be at all happy with _less_ than what I'm already getting.


Damn, do you ever have it not floored? I average around 40mpg combined, and I'm not exactly easy on the go pedal.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

ClownCar said:


> I don't believe that there has ever been a 'VIN registration block' for the many, many, hundreds of thousands of vehicles that have outstanding safety related recalls that are still out there. How or why would this situation be different?


Oh, I don't know... Because it was _willful_? There is nothing else quite like this in the history of recalls. 

Everyone who was in on this decision was complicit and will possibly get off scot-free.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Jettavr666 said:


> very true, but i would also be shocked if such an action occurred nationwide. There have been plenty of automobile incidents before that are arguably much more dangerous and affect more people than this.





ClownCar said:


> I don't believe that there has ever been a 'VIN registration block' for the many, many, hundreds of thousands of vehicles that have outstanding safety related recalls that are still out there. How or why would this situation be different?


Lack of subjectively judged severity of precedent doesn't change the law as written. A VIN block is not hard to put in place or enforce. If a car can't be made to meet Bin 5 requirements, it's not legal to drive. There's no leeway. I suspect the cars with SCR are ok, but the Jetta and Beetle diesels may be unfixable, and in that case EPA isn't going to give a pass.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Air and water do mix said:


> Oh, I don't know... Because it was _willful_? There is nothing else quite like this in the history of recalls.
> 
> Everyone who was in on this decision was complicit and will possibly get off scot-free.


This. Don't look to past recalls as a guide. This is pretty unprecedented.


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)

Air and water do mix said:


> Oh, I don't know... Because it was _willful_? There is nothing else quite like this in the history of recalls.
> 
> Everyone who was in on this decision was complicit and will possibly get off scot-free.


...and none of the safety related recalls involved willful behaviour on someone's part?


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

ClownCar said:


> ...and none of the safety related recalls involved willful behaviour on someone's part?


Not the same. This would be more like an OEM not installing DOT bumpers, on purpose. There's a lot of recalls for manufacturing flaws or parts failures and so on, but that's not the same as a company consciously engineering a way to circumvent the regulations.


----------



## Jettavr666 (Dec 5, 2000)

Turbio! said:


> Lack of subjectively judged severity of precedent doesn't change the law as written. A VIN block is not hard to put in place or enforce. If a car can't be made to meet Bin 5 requirements, it's not legal to drive. There's no leeway. I suspect the cars with SCR are ok, but the Jetta and Beetle diesels may be unfixable, and in that case EPA isn't going to give a pass.


Completely true, but I guess I would ask do you see that happening? 

IMO I bet VW will go to great lengths to fix the issue, even if it means retrofitting SCR. A mass buyback or vin block would be truly unprecedented, and would set the tone for whatever happens in the rest of the world. The engine itself can pass, with the right aftertreatment. 

If this was just a US issue I would see it differently, but its not.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

ClownCar said:


> ...and none of the safety related recalls involved willful behaviour on someone's part?


All of those were after-the-fact and this isn't.

That difference is _huge_.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> yeah, but those never affected the environment. who cares if it kills people directly, we have theoretical figures that this might contribute to pollution which may kill additional people a year. make it a mandatory recall!!
> 
> 
> (for the record, i understand it's a dangerous emission. and that it's also impossible to directly relate any extra deaths to this. VW polluted more than legally allowed, which _may contribute to more people dying_. notices the keyword "contribute". emissions aren't just a VW thing. what's to stop someone from throwing in the unmeasured amount of people who modify their diesels to spew that black smoke we see all too often?)


We should. I think those people should be fined by the day until their vehicles are compliant again. Focusing on one doesn't mean that all others are necessarily disregarded.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Jettavr666 said:


> Completely true, but I guess I would ask do you see that happening?
> 
> IMO I bet VW will go to great lengths to fix the issue, even if it means retrofitting SCR. A mass buyback or vin block would be truly unprecedented, and would set the tone for whatever happens in the rest of the world. The engine itself can pass, with the right aftertreatment.
> 
> If this was just a US issue I would see it differently, but its not.


Depends on whether it's a Jetta, with only the catalytic converter, or a Passat or Golf with urea. And yeah, if VW fails to either fix the issue of buy the cars back, I am certain that a VIN block would be in play, and I know EPA is considering it.

Like I said: it's an unprecedented situation. Lack of precedent isn't going to take an option off the table, and neither is concern over setting a tone.


----------



## Jettavr666 (Dec 5, 2000)

Turbio! said:


> Depends on whether it's a Jetta, with only the catalytic converter, or a Passat or Golf with urea. And yeah, if VW fails to either fix the issue of buy the cars back, I am certain that a VIN block would be in play, and I know EPA is considering the option.


Because I know you are familiar with the field, what in your opinion is the viability of retrofitting SCR on the LNT equipped cars?


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Turbio! said:


> We should. I think those people should be fined by the day until their vehicles are compliant again. Focusing on one doesn't mean that all others are necessarily disregarded.


i don't think these people should be fined by the day, but i do agree that they should have their registrations withheld until they get the recall completed. even if they don't comply, they'll be risking major fines, points and penalties for driving an unregistered vehicle. in some areas, not sure about all of them, you can't insure an unregistered vehicle, so they'd be driving around uninsured also.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Jettavr666 said:


> Because I know you are familiar with the field, what in your opinion is the viability of retrofitting SCR on the LNT equipped cars?


The regulatory side is more my bag, but there's an article floating around that basically makes the case that it's less economical than a buyback. It'd have to be tested and approved, too.


----------



## vwguru714 (Aug 23, 2007)

So VW still has no final solution?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Jettavr666 (Dec 5, 2000)

Turbio! said:


> The regulatory side is more my bag, but there's an article floating around that basically makes the case that it's less economical than a buyback. It'd have to be tested and approved, too.


I read that article, and had some misgivings about it. 

On the regulatory side, would VW get expedited testing and approval of such a system in order to get the vehicles fixed as fast as possible?


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

vwguru714 said:


> So VW still has no final solution?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk



At this point nothing has been announced by VW regarding solutions. Everything in this thread regarding potential solutions is speculation.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> At this point nothing has been announced by VW regarding solutions. Everything in this thread regarding potential solutions is speculation.


i'd say we're close to hitting the nail on the head, though. given the options available to VW, they'll want to balance expediancy with cost while rectifying the problems they're having. adding Adblue and extending the emissions warranty seems to be the only option that meets both criteria.


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

vwguru714 said:


> So VW still has no final solution?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Shmi (Mar 25, 2009)

vwguru714 said:


> So VW still has no final solution?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk





improvius said:


>


I was going to say... nice wording.


----------



## d.tek (Nov 28, 2004)

GoHomeBroke said:


> i'd say we're close to hitting the nail on the head, though. given the options available to VW, they'll want to balance expediancy with cost while rectifying the problems they're having. adding Adblue and extending the emissions warranty seems to be the only option that meets both criteria.


I wonder if they've focused to the euro market, given the ultimatum by Germany. Their market is MUCH larger there, so it would make more sense to address that first. Will it be a global solution? Aren't emissions regulations different in Europe? This is all very interesting to watch unfold.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Air and water do mix said:


> There is nothing else quite like this in the history of recalls.





Turbio! said:


> This. Don't look to past recalls as a guide. This is pretty unprecedented.


Come on, you two. The Cat/Renault/Cummins/etc big rig Diesel recall is very close to this. Willful deception and all. :wave:


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

vwguru714 said:


> So VW still has no final solution?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


The emissions defeat device was their final solution...














:wave:


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

GoHomeBroke said:


> i'd say we're close to hitting the nail on the head, though. given the options available to VW, they'll want to balance expediancy with cost while rectifying the problems they're having. adding Adblue and extending the emissions warranty seems to be the only option that meets both criteria.


To all the recent people that have registered in here (that don't work for the press or other websites) looking for factual answers - we don't know what the solution is, how it will be implemented and what any potential ramifications will be.


----------



## fknlo (Jun 30, 2004)

thegoose said:


> Damn, do you ever have it not floored? I average around 40mpg combined, and I'm not exactly easy on the go pedal.


I'm not going to pretend I'm light on the go pedal in city driving, but in highway driving with the cruise control set at 5 over I've literally gotten the EPA advertised 42mpg twice.


----------



## Jettavr666 (Dec 5, 2000)

GoHomeBroke said:


> i'd say we're close to hitting the nail on the head, though. given the options available to VW, they'll want to balance expediency with cost while rectifying the problems they're having. adding Adblue and extending the emissions warranty seems to be the only option that meets both criteria.


(just my opinion) 

If VW could do a buyback only in the US, and fix vehicles in all other markets I bet that would be there preferred solution. However because its a worldwide issue, I dont see that occurring.


----------



## StlVDub (Aug 1, 2010)

Air and water do mix said:


> ...And in one example of extremely bad timing, I just got this in my e-mail...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is unfortunately very true. I know guys who work there, just talked to one yesterday. He said its absolutely a ghost town there. People seem to be attributing the TDI issue to ALL VWs and are just generally staying away.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Turbio! said:


> This. Don't look to past recalls as a guide. This is pretty unprecedented.


I thought it was the same as the big rig diesel engines in the 90's. What was the fix for that? I'm still confused by this issue.

VW was able to pass EPA tests with no modified equipment or Urea using the "Dyno mode" but yet chose not to fix the issue with an ECU update when they had the chance 
Seems to me the best course of action would have been to reprogram it to run in Dyno mode all the time and deal with the performance consequences and warranty cost additional wear on emissions equipment. I mean the EPA would have probably figured out what was up after all the complaints of reduced gas mileage after the fix.

That "dyno mode" tune would have to do so much damage to the motor and or emissions equipment for it to make any financial sense to admit wrongdoing vs just reprogramming to the Dyno tune.


----------



## Jettavr666 (Dec 5, 2000)

d.tek said:


> I wonder if they've focused to the euro market, given the ultimatum by Germany. Their market is MUCH larger there, so it would make more sense to address that first. Will it be a global solution? Aren't emissions regulations different in Europe? This is all very interesting to watch unfold.


They are different, but are moving closer to US standards. certain pollutants are measured in very similar ways, others are not. 

Remember however that the EU also measures CO2, which actually may make the fix more difficult there, because they cant effectively just burn more fuel to lower the NOx. 

light wikipedia reading 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_emission_standards
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

atomicalex said:


> Come on, you two. The Cat/Renault/Cummins/etc big rig Diesel recall is very close to this. Willful deception and all. :wave:


That's true, but with trucking there is a much longer-term timeline, making a retrofit much more practical. There's also a lot of space for added equipment, unlike in a passenger car.

There's also the fact that retail sales are likely much more heavily influenced by this than is the case for fleet buyers. As I pointed out, just look at the ghost towns that are VW dealerships right now. Even gas car sales are suffering because of public perception and news stories that don't mention the word 'diesel'. 

It would suck to be a salesperson at a VW dealership right now. I'd imagine more than a few folks have polished their resumés. 




StlVDub said:


> This is unfortunately very true. I know guys who work there, just talked to one yesterday. He said its absolutely a ghost town there. People seem to be attributing the TDI issue to ALL VWs and are just generally staying away.


Yeah, that's made evident by the number of e-mails I've gotten from them recently.


----------



## Cole Orlling (Mar 18, 2015)

JitteryJoe said:


> That "dyno mode" tune would have to do so much damage to the motor and or emissions equipment for it to make any financial sense to admit wrongdoing vs just reprogramming to the Dyno tune.



Then more than likely that is the case. Otherwise there would never have been a reason to risk programming the cars this way.


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

Air and water do mix said:


> That's true, but with trucking there is a much longer-term timeline, making a retrofit much more practical. There's also a lot of space for added equipment, unlike in a passenger car.
> 
> There's also the fact that retail sales are likely much more heavily influenced by this than is the case for fleet buyers. As I pointed out, just look at the ghost towns that are VW dealerships right now. Even gas car sales are suffering because of public perception and news stories that don't mention the word 'diesel'.
> 
> ...


Now I know that it varies region to region, but my zone should end up near the factory objective. We're already at 110% YoY in our zone, so we're growing in the middle of this. 

If the VW dealership is a ghost town, that's more indicative of the management freaking out and taking their foot off the gas more than anything else. Resilient people find a way to succeed and don't just throw in the towel. If VW put out a stop sale on every car in their line up, we'd still survive on our used car operation. Dealers that let this get them down are really reactionary and need to plan better.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> Now I know that it varies region to region, but my zone should end up near the factory objective. We're already at 110% YoY in our zone, so we're growing in the middle of this.
> 
> If the VW dealership is a ghost town, that's more indicative of the management freaking out and taking their foot off the gas more than anything else. Resilient people find a way to succeed and don't just throw in the towel. If VW put out a stop sale on every car in their line up, we'd still survive on our used car operation. Dealers that let this get them down are really reactionary and need to plan better.


Well, e-mails and throwing a party in the middle of this could be evidence of exactly that. :beer:


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

A quick check-in from a lessee here (me) -

My 2014 Jetta TDI received the 2306 recall software flash in July of this year. I noticed no difference in power, but my overall fuel economy dropped @ 15%.....same as what others have reported.

My re-registration (California) came in the mail about a month ago and was due for late October. I read the initial stories about Dieselgate for a few days, then suddenly remembered my car needed to be smogged. I dropped everything and _roared _down to the nearest smog station and got the procedure done. It's largely a visual inspection with I believe a plug-in check for emission codes. Car was passed and the info sent to California DMV. I paid my registration online and got my sticker in the mail a couple of days ago. 

So.....

You can still smog and register your TDi in California, at least as of right now. Public service announcement complete.


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

Air and water do mix said:


> Well, e-mails and throwing a party in the middle of this could be evidence of exactly that. :beer:


And I wish all of the dealers the best. A lot of people are freaking out when they shouldn't. Get a handle on the things you can control, and don't sweat the stuff that you can't control. I've sat with the owner to make sure that our VW store his their ROI targets even if we never sell another TDI again, which isn't a likely scenario. 

That being said, most stores don't have a dealer principal like mine. Most stores ride the gravy train in the good years and go out of business the second the market hiccups. :laugh:


----------



## CostcoPizza (Jan 20, 2008)

Air and water do mix said:


> Well, e-mails and throwing a party in the middle of this could be evidence of exactly that. :beer:


Sounds like you need to arrive at this party fashionably late, act disinterested, and see what kinda deals get thrown your way. :laugh:


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

A friend at an Audi dealership said they have sold very few cars with the engine.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Air and water do mix said:


> Even gas car sales are suffering because of public perception and *news stories that don't mention the word 'diesel'. *


so the media outlets covering this are somewhat liable for lost sales?


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> And I wish all of the dealers the best. A lot of people are freaking out when they shouldn't. Get a handle on the things you can control, and don't sweat the stuff that you can't control. I've sat with the owner to make sure that our VW store his their ROI targets even if we never sell another TDI again, which isn't a likely scenario.
> 
> That being said, most stores don't have a dealer principal like mine. Most stores ride the gravy train in the good years and go out of business the second the market hiccups. :laugh:


They've been around for a long time, both their previous owner [Clapp Oldsmobile(!) and Clapp VW] and their current owner, Sam Swope. Now they're being sold to a huge conglomerate, so I'd imagine they can absorb the bad years, especially if it's a bad year for a specific brand, rather than a bad year for car sales in general.



CostcoPizza said:


> Sounds like you need to arrive at this party fashionably late, act disinterested, and see what kinda deals get thrown your way. :laugh:


Yeah, I've been considering that very thing! Too bad they don't have a (red) manual Jetta Sport in stock. 


I might be able to scarf a good deal on a dealer trade, anyway. 

"No, I don't _want_ the lighting package, take that right off the top." We'll haggle from there.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Jettavr666 said:


> They are different, but are moving closer to US standards. certain pollutants are measured in very similar ways, others are not.


The fact that they're closer now, for the 2016 model year doesn't affect VW. VW already stated that their Euro6 vehicles are not affected by the recall. What's at issue here are the Euro5 certified cars. So for comparison:

NOx allowable in g/mi for diesel cars. (Side note; Euro had different standards by fuel, but the US is the same regardless of fuel type)

Euro5: 0.18
T2B5: 0.07

For comparison, Euro6 is 0.08 for diesel.

This highlights the problem. The US cars were claimed to be producing NOx at a rate slightly lower than the Euro6 standard, but without Adblue - something that no VW which was certified to Euro6 has managed. It gives the impression that there's no possible legal way to pass the NOx standard without urea injection of some kind.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> so the media outlets covering this are somewhat liable for lost sales?


No this is all on VW. Guilt by association and all. You find one article where VW cars are referenced and diesel isn't. It's just the reactionary nature of people. Ford Explorer is bad, then all Ford's must be bad. 

I'll be curious to see what VW's September sales end up being. I wonder how big of an effect the last 10 days of the month will have on total sales. We'll soon see.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> This highlights the problem. The US cars were claimed to be producing NOx at a rate slightly lower than the Euro6 standard, but without Adblue - something that no VW which was certified to Euro6 has managed. It gives the impression that there's no possible legal way to pass the NOx standard without urea injection of some kind.


Well, it gives the impression, but the reality is that they may be able to meet that goal, at the expense of high-dollar component replacement. We'll see. :beer:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

GoHomeBroke said:


> so the media outlets covering this are somewhat liable for lost sales?


The media is not required to use such modifiers. Would you still complain even if the media DID say that it was only VW diesel cars? After all, that's not entirely perfect either, since right now it is only the VW diesels with the 2.0 liter 4-cylinder engines that are affected.

No, the media reporting saying that VW has stopped the sale of some cars is already accurate.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Turbio! said:


> Lack of subjectively judged severity of precedent doesn't change the law as written. A VIN block is not hard to put in place or enforce. If a car can't be made to meet Bin 5 requirements, it's not legal to drive. There's no leeway. I suspect the cars with SCR are ok, but the Jetta and Beetle diesels may be unfixable, and in that case EPA isn't going to give a pass.


There are a lot of cars, trucks, motorbikes, that legally shouldn't be on the roads but are allowed to continue on (in states with no mandatory inspection). Forcing a registration block on a vehicle due to manufacturer maladies is political suicide and not murrican. I will be shocked, shocked I tell you! if it were to happen.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> There are a lot of cars, trucks, motorbikes, that legally shouldn't be on the roads but are allowed to continue on (in states with no mandatory inspection). Forcing a registration block on a vehicle due to manufacturer maladies is political suicide and not murrican. I will be shocked, shocked I tell you! if it were to happen.


But that is on the individual. This is en masse and caused by the manufacturer from day one. The difference is a chasm the size of the Grand Canyon.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> The media is not required to use such modifiers. Would you still complain even if the media DID say that it was only VW diesel cars? After all, that's not entirely perfect either, since right now it is only the VW diesels with the 2.0 liter 4-cylinder engines that are affected.
> 
> No, the media reporting saying that VW has stopped the sale of some cars is already accurate.


that comment was tongue in cheek, considering my disdain for how the media portrays most stories. it's not news when they sensationalize things needlessly. if they'd mentioned diesels, then it wouldn't be a problem. but, as always, they pass off their drama as news. if you want to be a smart ass, you'd be better off going with "since it's only the EA189 engine affected, anything not specifying it isn't exactly true." :laugh:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

vwwtchr said:


> No this is all on VW. Guilt by association and all. You find one article where VW cars are referenced and diesel isn't. It's just the reactionary nature of people. Ford Explorer is bad, then all Ford's must be bad.
> 
> I'll be curious to see what VW's September sales end up being. I wonder how big of an effect the last 10 days of the month will have on total sales. We'll soon see.


it's not hard to guess how hard this has hit them. imo, it's not how hard it hit VW, but how long this hit will last. GM recovered, Honda is recovering, Toyota recovered. all a matter of when.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Air and water do mix said:


> This is en masse and caused by the manufacturer from day one.


You think an elected official is going to punish an American citizen because of the acts of a foreign company that hoodwinked our own government? I wouldn't be surprised if club TDI revolutionaries fought any such 'forced recall' legally. I mean, they were nutjobs before this fracas :laugh:


----------



## Shmi (Mar 25, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> so the media outlets covering this are somewhat liable for lost sales?


I'd have to crunch some numbers to find out how liable they are for additional dead sales.

















Calm down everybody I'm just kidding.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

Silly_me said:


> There are a lot of cars, trucks, motorbikes, that legally shouldn't be on the roads but are allowed to continue on (in states with no mandatory inspection). Forcing a registration block on a vehicle due to manufacturer maladies is political suicide and not murrican. I will be shocked, shocked I tell you! if it were to happen.


This is an unprecedented situation, and I'm willing to bet the feds are going to introduce a mandatory recall program, and use your registration as the stick to ensure compliance from people in states where they don't really care.

You will get this car emissions legal or you won't be able to register it. That part seems pretty certain.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

GoHomeBroke said:


> it's not hard to guess how hard this has hit them. imo, *it's not how hard it hit VW, but how long this hit will last.* GM recovered, Honda is recovering, Toyota recovered. all a matter of when.


I agree completely. This is big, but as to whether it's a bump in the road or a protracted issue I can't say.


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

fknlo said:


> So what about the folks like me that rarely get the advertised ratings of the car? I don't live somewhere with 45mph speed limits on highways. 42mpg is the best I've ever gotten. I've gotten that a whopping 2 times over 63k miles. Low 30's aren't uncommon on trips to/from Denver in winter either. I'm not going to be at all happy with _less_ than what I'm already getting.


I have a hard time understanding that, I get a rock solid 50mpg at 73mph on cruise control, no hills.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> You think an elected official is going to punish an American citizen because of the acts of a foreign company that hoodwinked our own government? I wouldn't be surprised if club TDI revolutionaries fought any such 'forced recall' legally. I mean, they were nutjobs before this fracas :laugh:


That's not how it would play out.

"We're here to defend the citizens from the shenanigans of this company. VW must pay their customers for this blatant disregard of public health etc. etc..."


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Air and water do mix said:


> "We're here to defend the citizens from the shenanigans of this company. VW must pay their customers for this blatant disregard of public health etc. etc..."


Saying VW has to pay is different than saying the customers can't register their legally purchased cars that were EPA certified at time of sale. But, who knows what will happen, because in case you didn't know, this situation is:



Turbio! said:


> This is pretty unprecedented.





Jettavr666 said:


> A mass buyback or vin block would be truly unprecedented





vwwtchr said:


> This is an unprecedented situation


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

I'm well aware, but that's not how politics works. Politicians will spin it as they see appropriate and blame the company. It's not to get the "little people", as folks on either side of the aisle won't do that (or at least admit to it), it's about defending the "little people".

If VW gives a customer $25,000 for a 5 year old car that's worth $15,000, who's going to complain? Well, other than the folks at TDIclub, of course. :laugh:


----------



## freedomgli (Mar 26, 2002)

vwwtchr said:


> I'm willing to bet the feds are going to introduce a mandatory recall program, and use your registration as the stick to ensure compliance from people in states where they don't really care.
> 
> You will get this car emissions legal or you won't be able to register it. That part seems pretty certain.


Some but not all CARB states tie EPA recall completion to vehicle registration renewal. The Feds don't have a mechanism to achieve this nationwide as vehicle registration is handled at the state level.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

Problems:


-Emissions
-Mileage
-Performance
-Resale


Simply put, the first thing is VW's only concern because thats what they are charged with. The last 3 will be what the customer has to deal with. While they say now that they want to earn the trust back of the consumer, that is all talk at this point. The consumer will get the short end of a $hitty stick. VW's only concern is their shareholders.


----------



## freedomgli (Mar 26, 2002)

Air and water do mix said:


> Oh, I don't know... Because it was _willful_? There is nothing else quite like this in the history of recalls.


This VW issue is hardly unprecedented. Most are just better at making their decisions seem like routine design compromises rather than outright cheating. There are many examples of "willful and wanton conduct" by vehicle manufacturers and the case law grows exponentialy if we include other businesses that have been sued because of personal injury and product liability. 

Here's just one example http://www.autosafety.org/safety-scandal-shames-mitsubishi


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Shmi said:


> I'd have to crunch some numbers to find out how liable they are for additional dead sales.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


priceless. :laugh::beer:




Air and water do mix said:


> I agree completely. This is big, but as to whether it's a bump in the road or a protracted issue I can't say.


when compared to the issues of other manufacturers, i'm siding with this being a bump in the road. several other manufacturer's and their issues have directly been responsible for the deaths of their customers. some of which hit triple digits. VW added a few more sizable drops to the bucket than they were legally allowed to.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

vwwtchr said:


> This is an unprecedented situation, and I'm willing to bet the feds are going to introduce a mandatory recall program, and use your registration as the stick to ensure compliance from people in states where they don't really care.
> 
> You will get this car emissions legal or you won't be able to register it. That part seems pretty certain.


So there is an alternative to mandating owners complete the recall. US EPA has had various NOx trading programs over the years through NBP, CAIR, and now CSAPR. If VW were willing to buy offsets for the amount of emissions expected from TDIs, then I see no reason to force vehicle owners to get the fix done in non-CARB states. 

http://www3.epa.gov/airtransport/CSAPR/index.html


----------



## bzcat (Nov 26, 2001)

atomicalex said:


> Come on, you two. The Cat/Renault/Cummins/etc big rig Diesel recall is very close to this. Willful deception and all. :wave:


Yes, but the numbers of vehicles involved are vastly different.

There is also a much more recent precedent... from just *two months ago*! EPA is seeking fines of $300 million from Navistar over 7,750 selling non-compliant EGR diesel engines - basically Navistar is accused of mislabeling 2010 engines as 2009 to skirt compliance. Sort of similar to what VW did but not as blatant.

That's $38,710 per vehicle...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/epa-sues-truck-maker-navistar-over-engines-in-2010-trucks-1437015157



WSJ said:


> Truck maker Navistar International Corp. built thousands of heavy-duty trucks in 2010 with engines from 2009 that didn’t comply with stricter government regulations on exhaust pollution, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency alleged in a lawsuit filed Wednesday against the company.
> 
> The complaint said the Lisle, Ill., company sold about 7,750 diesel engines in violation of EPA emissions standards that took effect Jan. 1, 2010.
> 
> ...


http://www.ibtimes.com/epa-sues-nav...-air-act-involving-2010-truck-engines-2011422


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

classicjetta said:


> So there is an alternative to mandating owners complete the recall. US EPA has had various NOx trading programs over the years through NBP, CAIR, and now CSAPR. If VW were willing to buy offsets for the amount of emissions expected from TDIs, then I see no reason to force vehicle owners to get the fix done in non-CARB states.
> 
> http://www3.epa.gov/airtransport/CSAPR/index.html


so, it's almost quite literally the government saying "give us money and we'll say you can slide on this." :laugh:


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

bzcat said:


> There is also a much more recent precedent... from just *two months ago*! EPA is seeking fines of $300 million from Navistar over 7,750 selling non-compliant EGR diesel engines - basically Navistar is accused of mislabeling 2010 engines as 2009 to skirt compliance.


the rules for heavy duty engines are a bit funky. 
you can label stuff as the previous year if the cranks are laid in the block, or something odd like that. then they can sit in a warehouse for the next year and be sold well after the emissions have gone into effect, "because theyve already been built".

much more of a grey area than what vw has done. and also not uncommon at all in the heavy duty engine business. cat and cummins did this by the container-load around the 2007 switch over, truck makers were selling pre-07 cat/cummins engines into 09 or something, depending on stock. not something you regularly see with cars.


also, just saw this pop up. seems like vw is going the retrofit route.

i bet this will have had plenty of testing time on it :laugh:

pepper your angus.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> so, it's almost quite literally the government saying "give us money and we'll say you can slide on this." :laugh:


Not quite. VW would need to purchase credits on the open market for the amount they want to offset. US EPA oversees the program but doesn't profit from it.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Here's a question:

Is there any evidence that the cars have been run under the same 'real-world' testing conditions running in the EPA emissions map mode?

I've seen a lot of people state that VW will likely just reflash cars to run in that mode full time--but is there any evidence that they would meet emissions standards under those circumstances?


----------



## MylesPH1 (Aug 6, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> I'm well aware, but that's not how politics works. Politicians will spin it as they see appropriate and blame the company. It's not to get the "little people", as folks on either side of the aisle won't do that (or at least admit to it), it's about defending the "little people".
> 
> If VW gives a customer $25,000 for a 5 year old car that's worth $15,000, who's going to complain? Well, other than the folks at TDIclub, of course. :laugh:


My state will probably demand both a fix and optional buyback for any TDI owner.

Call me cynical, but if someone had a TDI worth 15 grand and was offered a $25,000 payout, they'd likely take it, then go buy another one for less than 15k, since the values will be in the tank. Talk about a tax credit, this has the EV incentive beat by a country mile and with no income limit.


----------



## freedomgli (Mar 26, 2002)

GoHomeBroke said:


> so, it's almost quite literally the government saying "give us money and we'll say you can slide on this." :laugh:


That's par for the course when it comes to corporate malfeasance. How many Wall St. tycoons are in jail for the mortgage derivatives scandal? Exactly.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

classicjetta said:


> Not quite. VW would need to purchase credits on the open market for the amount they want to offset. US EPA oversees the program but doesn't profit from it.


jesus, dude. do you have any idea what a ****ing joke is?


----------



## todor (Feb 14, 2014)

just FYI... the Carista app now includes an option to check if your car is affected by the recall.  :thumbup:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

freedomgli said:


> That's par for the course when it comes to corporate malfeasance. How many Wall St. tycoons are in jail for the mortgage derivatives scandal? Exactly.


honestly, that comment was mostly a joke. but the idea that any car company can "buy credits" from a government or a government agency and get a pass on **** like this is laughable. it's essentially the company paying to have them look the other way for awhile.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> also, just saw this pop up. seems like vw is going the retrofit route.


I thought this picture, with the roundabout sign, was a perfect representation :laugh:


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

GoHomeBroke said:


> it's essentially the company paying to have them look the other way for awhile.


Emissions testing is kinda like that for the end user. You only have to spend so much on repairs, and then you get your red sticker, and get to pollute for another year.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Surf Green said:


> Emissions testing is kinda like that for the end user. You only have to spend so much on repairs, and then you get your red sticker, and get to pollute for another year.


unless you have a car that's 25+ years old. then it's "**** it, whatever." :laugh:


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

GoHomeBroke said:


> unless you have a car that's 25+ years old. then it's "**** it, whatever." :laugh:


That's the long game.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Surf Green said:


> That's the long game.


i'm waiting for 2021 to roll around. R33 Skyline with all the bits and pieces of the R34 goes legal stateside. :thumbup:


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> I thought this picture, with the roundabout sign, was a perfect representation :laugh:


Especially with those awful Klüh figures. Not only are we going in circles, but we've outsourced everything possible and now are unable to take responsibility for anything.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Numbersix said:


> Here's a question:
> 
> Is there any evidence that the cars have been run under the same 'real-world' testing conditions running in the EPA emissions map mode?
> 
> I've seen a lot of people state that VW will likely just reflash cars to run in that mode full time--but is there any evidence that they would meet emissions standards under those circumstances?


They passed the testing on the dyno in that mode to get their (faked) certification in the first place ...

The question is how badly this will hobble their operation and/or how much this will shorten the lifetime of the emission control components.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

GoFaster said:


> They passed the testing on the dyno in that mode to get their (faked) certification in the first place ...
> 
> The question is how badly this will hobble their operation and/or how much this will shorten the lifetime of the emission control components.


honestly, i don't think this will hobble their performance all that much. the numbers posted will be more in line with what's advertised. they're not performance cars to begin with, so people complaining about a slight loss of "pep" can eat it. the only question really is how this will affect the lifespan of the emissions components, which we've all been guessing at how VW will deal with.


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

Numbersix said:


> Is there any evidence that the cars have been run under the same 'real-world' testing conditions running in the EPA emissions map mode?


No external evidence of that, but you can guarantee VW has done it and the results weren't terribly pretty.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

GoHomeBroke said:


> honestly, i don't think this will hobble their performance all that much. the numbers posted will be more in line with what's advertised. they're not performance cars to begin with, so people complaining about a slight loss of "pep" can eat it. the only question really is how this will affect the lifespan of the emissions components, which we've all been guessing at how VW will deal with.


Right--

I think my point is--the 'emissions mode' may very well be designed to operate only under the known dyno-testing conditions. Not under the 'real-world' conditions that uncovered the drastically higher NOx emissions in 'defeat device active' mode.


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

GoHomeBroke said:


> they're not performance cars to begin with, so people complaining about a slight loss of "pep" can eat it.


Easy for you to say, you don't drive one. Any fix that takes away bhp and torks will make me quite unhappy.


----------



## P-Body (Mar 18, 2007)

MylesPH1 said:


> My state will probably demand both a fix and optional buyback for any TDI owner.
> 
> Call me cynical, but if someone had a TDI worth 15 grand and was offered a $25,000 payout, they'd likely take it, then go buy another one for less than 15k, since the values will be in the tank. Talk about a tax credit, this has the EV incentive beat by a country mile and with no income limit.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

DerSpiegel said:


> Easy for you to say, you don't drive one. Any fix that takes away bhp and torks will make me quite unhappy.


the numbers as advertised. *the numbers as advertised*. aren't going to change. did you dyno your TDI that didn't meet emissions standards? chances are it wasn't what was advertised. 

all of the info that was advertised for these cars was based off of the tests that they passed allowing them to be sold in the first place. i'll admit, it was peppier than i thought a diesel would be (had one for about a month), it's still not a GTI.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

freedomgli said:


> Some but not all CARB states tie EPA recall completion to vehicle registration renewal. The Feds don't have a mechanism to achieve this nationwide as vehicle registration is handled at the state level.


Yes they do, it's called withholding highway funds, or FEMA funds, or Medicare reimbursement, etc etc.

States who think they can defy federal regulations quickly find out they need the feds more than the feds need them.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

GoHomeBroke said:


> the numbers as advertised. *the numbers as advertised*. aren't going to change. did you dyno your TDI that didn't meet emissions standards? chances are it wasn't what was advertised.
> 
> all of the info that was advertised for these cars was based off of the tests that they passed allowing them to be sold in the first place. i'll admit, it was peppier than i thought a diesel would be (had one for about a month), it's still not a GTI.


I recently drove one and didn't buy it. I didn't buy it because I want to own my next car for a long time and didn't want to risk the expense of repairs to the expensive injection system, as they've had their issues.

What I did do was _drive_ it. I loved the acceleration, the way the thing pulled was fantastic for such an economical car (we all know it's not a GTI). It's the 'seat of the pants' feel that made me want it, not advertising numbers. If I had bought it and the 'fix' killed its performance, you're damned right I'd be pissed. I would have bought it for how it felt, not what the advertisements said it had, hp and torque-wise.


I don't give a tinker's damn what the numbers are.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Air and water do mix said:


> I recently drove one and didn't buy it. I didn't buy it because I want to own my next car for a long time and didn't want to risk the expense of repairs to the expensive injection system, as they've had their issues.
> 
> What I did do was _drive_ it. I loved the acceleration, the way the thing pulled was fantastic for such an economical car (we all know it's not a GTI). It's the 'seat of the pants' feel that made me want it, not advertising numbers. If I had bought it and the 'fix' killed its performance, you're damned right I'd be pissed. I would have bought it for how it felt, not what the advertisements said it had, hp and torque-wise.
> 
> ...


that's the question though. can you file a non frivolous lawsuit because the car you bought, which wasn't legal to begin with, now "_feels_" different after being made legal? VW didn't advertise it as a performance oriented car. they had no ads, that i saw, pointing towards it being sportier or quicker or anything like that. what legal ground would any owner have to stand on in this case? i'm not a legal expert, but there certainly isn't a false advertisement claim in there.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> the numbers as advertised. *the numbers as advertised*. aren't going to change. did you dyno your TDI that didn't meet emissions standards? chances are it wasn't what was advertised.
> 
> all of the info that was advertised for these cars was based off of the tests that they passed allowing them to be sold in the first place. i'll admit, it was peppier than i thought a diesel would be (had one for about a month), it's still not a GTI.


Sorry but people don't buy a car without test driving it, not too mention the loss of value due to VW's admitted fraud.

The class action lawsuits will have tons of merit, which is why they are being lined up as fast as possible.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> that's the question though. can you file a non frivolous lawsuit because the car you bought, which wasn't legal to begin with, now "_feels_" different after being made legal? VW didn't advertise it as a performance oriented car. they had no ads, that i saw, pointing towards it being sportier or quicker or anything like that. what legal ground would any owner have to stand on in this case? i'm not a legal expert, but there certainly isn't a false advertisement claim in there.


It's literally fraud. They fraudulently induced you into buying it by giving it performance and driveability it couldn't legally have. It's pretty cut and dried. All the 0-60 numbers were bunk, the seat of the pants feel of the car was not representative of the what the legal version would have. 

This is all cut and dried. VW won't even put up a defense here. They will cut large checks or buy back the cars, guaranteed.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

vwwtchr said:


> Sorry but people don't buy a car without test driving it, not too mention the loss of value due to VW's admitted fraud.
> 
> The class action lawsuits will have tons of merit, which is why they are being lined up as fast as possible.


Exactly. There is no way VW is going to be allowed to shift the burden to the owners by saying: "Sorry, um, you actually had the wrong HP all along! Isn't that super-interesting? So I guess we're done here, right?"


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

GoHomeBroke said:


> honestly, i don't think this will hobble their performance all that much. the numbers posted will be more in line with what's advertised. they're not performance cars to begin with, so people complaining about a slight loss of "pep" can eat it. the only question really is how this will affect the lifespan of the emissions components, which we've all been guessing at how VW will deal with.


easy for you to say being you dont drive one.

if the power loss can be felt. it is worth getting annoyed over.

you buy a car expecting certain performance, economy, and comfort levels to be present.
if it turns out that one or more of those things are now being taken away from you without some sort of compensation, you have a right to be pissed.

you paid for those things. if someone takes them away, i'd be pissed.

don't agree? let's take 10-20hp off your car then and see if you like the result.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

atomicalex said:


> Especially with those awful Klüh figures. Not only are we going in circles, but we've outsourced everything possible and now are unable to take responsibility for anything.


:laugh:

everybody point to your left...


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswa...emissions-rigged-vehicles-says-ceo-1443525496



> In some cases hardware changes will also be necessary. In vehicles with 1.2-liter and 1.6-liter engines, which aren’t sold in the U.S., a hardware change will likely be necessary because a fuel injection pump has to be replaced to ensure a smooth ride, Mr. Buhlmann said. In Europe, vehicles with 2-liter engines will only need a software update, but it isn’t clear whether that would suffice in the U.S. due to different standards.


the latest i've seen.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

GoHomeBroke said:


> that's the question though...


Yes. Yes it is. Because it can't be known by the customer on the test drive what the car is developing, hp wise, they have to buy it by 'feel'. Don't worry, we'll have performance numbers before-and-after the fix, assuming there is one. All you'd have to do is take some numbers that are repeatable and go to court, but it won't come to that.



vwwtchr said:


> ...VW won't even put up a defense here. They will cut large checks or buy back the cars, guaranteed.


This. I'll add the caveat that they make cut _smaller_ checks to those who want to keep their car... 



Assuming they can make it legal.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

dunhamjr said:


> easy for you to say being you dont drive one.
> 
> if the power loss can be felt. it is worth getting annoyed over.
> 
> ...


no one buys a Prius because it's "peppy". you want a car that's peppy, go buy a performance oriented car. imo, people are getting upset about the possibility that it will change how the TDI drives because it showed people how efficient cars could still deliver great feel. now that it may not deliver that feel anymore, you feel betrayed. it's an efficient car first and foremost. no one bought a TDI because it felt like a racecar. if anything, people bought it because it didn't feel like it was expected to. 

go ahead and take 10-20 hp off. here's the funny thing about that: if i add 10-20 hp to any car, the difference is almost negligible. people have come out of the woodworks numerous times in TCL to beat that fact into the heads of others. how is it suddenly so much different when it's 10-20 hp removed from the car? (keep in mind we have no official evidence that the proposed update will have any effect on the vehicle's performance. that bit of info will come soon, though.)


----------



## ffcol (Apr 7, 2011)

I would like to see something offered along the lines of a buyback at book value plus 10% credited towards a new VW with financing through VW. VW will have to figure out what to do with the vehicles. If the fix cripples the HP, but corrects the Nox, sell the cars as used through dealerships at a greatly reduced rate. People will buy them if they are cheap.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

GoHomeBroke said:


> no one buys a Prius because it's "peppy". you want a car that's peppy, go buy a performance oriented car. imo, people are getting upset about the possibility that it will change how the TDI drives because it showed people how efficient cars could still deliver great feel. now that it may not deliver that feel anymore, you feel betrayed. it's an efficient car first and foremost. no one bought a TDI because it felt like a racecar. if anything, people bought it because it didn't feel like it was expected to.
> 
> go ahead and take 10-20 hp off. here's the funny thing about that: if i add 10-20 hp to any car, the difference is almost negligible. people have come out of the woodworks numerous times in TCL to beat that fact into the heads of others. how is it suddenly so much different when it's 10-20 hp removed from the car? (keep in mind we have no official evidence that the proposed update will have any effect on the vehicle's performance. that bit of info will come soon, though.)


Are you out of your gourd? Seriously?

I stated exactly that in my post.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Air and water do mix said:


> Are you out of your gourd? Seriously?
> 
> I stated exactly that in my post.


i hadn't seen your post by the time i was writing that. i agree with what you said, but i'd add that it's got more to do with protecting what's left of their reputation than proving who's right or wrong.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

Air and water do mix said:


> Are you out of your gourd? Seriously?
> 
> I stated exactly that in my post.


Now it just feels like trolling to rile up TDI drivers in the thread.


----------



## freedomgli (Mar 26, 2002)

vwwtchr said:


> Yes they do, it's called withholding highway funds, or FEMA funds, or Medicare reimbursement, etc etc.
> 
> States who think they can defy federal regulations quickly find out they need the feds more than the feds need them.


I don't think any of those are workable solutions for what is a short-term problem. Those mechanisms are more for long-term goals. And all of it is dependent upon a Congress that can actually function and get stuff done, which remains to be seen.


----------



## P-Body (Mar 18, 2007)

ffcol said:


> I would like to see something offered along the lines of a buyback at book value plus 10% credited towards a new VW with financing through VW. VW will have to figure out what to do with the vehicles. If the fix cripples the HP, but corrects the Nox, sell the cars as used through dealerships at a greatly reduced rate. People will buy them if they are cheap.


LOL.

Book value plus 10% off a new VW? You think this is what's going to happen?

In your world, someone who feels cheated by the company to such an extent that they would consider a buyback...would be happy to be given a credit to buy another car from that same company? Hell, in your scenario, it sounds like VW might churn some profit out of this!

I think the more realistic scenario is something along the lines of:

2015- full MSRP value
2014 - full MSRP minus 10%
etc.

Just a flat table. Mileage won't be considered. In order for a buyback to succeed, you need two things present, one of which directly affects owners, the other which affects the company:


The payout to be rich enough that the customer feels like they're not being screwed over, aka they are 'made whole' - I don't know what this number is, but I would think VW is currently testing out different numbers.
Indirectly related to the first point, the buyout being good enough that you essentially purchase forgiveness and the customer will at some point consider your product again.

If the buyout isn't rich enough, it will cause even greater issues and the news cycle will just extend, and worse you may lose a generation of customers because of longer term perception adjustments. 

First rule of crisis management - do it right the first time...or else.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> no one buys a Prius because it's "peppy". you want a car that's peppy, go buy a performance oriented car. imo, people are getting upset about the possibility that it will change how the TDI drives because it showed people how efficient cars could still deliver great feel. now that it may not deliver that feel anymore, you feel betrayed. it's an efficient car first and foremost. no one bought a TDI because it felt like a racecar. if anything, people bought it because it didn't feel like it was expected to.
> 
> go ahead and take 10-20 hp off. here's the funny thing about that: if i add 10-20 hp to any car, the difference is almost negligible. people have come out of the woodworks numerous times in TCL to beat that fact into the heads of others. how is it suddenly so much different when it's 10-20 hp removed from the car? (keep in mind we have no official evidence that the proposed update will have any effect on the vehicle's performance. that bit of info will come soon, though.)


Thankfully for actual tdi owners your thoughts have no correlation to actual rule of law. According to the law if you use lies and misrepresentations (0-60 times, the observed power and torque on the test drive) to induce a sale it's actionable.

Also 10-20hp on a 140hp car is easily noticeable. Take any compact car with a 1.8 ltr engine with 135 hp and give it 15-20 more hp out of a 2.0 ltr engine and you will easily feel it. We aren't talking 480hp to 500hp here.

You're beginning to sound a bit trollish though so let's just end our interactions here.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

GoHomeBroke said:


> http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswa...emissions-rigged-vehicles-says-ceo-1443525496
> 
> 
> > In some cases hardware changes will also be necessary. In vehicles with 1.2-liter and 1.6-liter engines, which aren’t sold in the U.S., a hardware change will likely be necessary because a fuel injection pump has to be replaced to ensure a smooth ride, Mr. Buhlmann said. In Europe, vehicles with 2-liter engines will only need a software update, but it isn’t clear whether that would suffice in the U.S. due to different standards.
> ...


reposting because it's probably been missed.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

vwwtchr said:


> Thankfully for actual tdi owners your thoughts have no correlation to actual rule of law. According to the law if you use lies and misrepresentations (0-60 times, the observed power and torque on the test drive) to induce a sale it's actionable.
> 
> Also 10-20hp on a 140hp car is easily noticeable. Take any compact car with a 1.8 ltr engine with 135 hp and give it 15-20 more hp out of a 2.0 ltr engine and you will easily feel it. We aren't talking 480hp to 500hp here.
> 
> You're beginning to sound a bit trollish though so let's just end our interactions here.


the only thing wrong with your statement is this:


> ( the observed power and torque on the test drive)


you have no way of measuring those figures during a test drive.


i've been defending VW this whole time, saying they shouldn't be punished any worse than manufacturers that have killed people, but suddenly i'm a troll because i don't believe TDI owners have a legal leg to stand on as far as the possibility of the car's "feel" changing?

i'm not bashing TDI owners. the month i had one i was impressed with it, but i didn't get fanatical about it like some of you seem to be. all i'm saying is i don't see how the "feel" changing with the car having to be made legally compliant is anything to validate a lawsuit. if the numbers as advertised aren't anywhere near it, yeah. but just off of how it feels alone, i don't see it.


----------



## ffcol (Apr 7, 2011)

P-Body said:


> LOL.
> 
> Book value plus 10% off a new VW? You think this is what's going to happen?
> 
> ...


You would not have to buy another VW, but if you did it would be discounted. It's an incentive to keep customers. I'm not inconvenienced by any of this until they screw my car up with the fix, which I am anticipating will happen. I want it left alone or a buyback and I'm not looking to make money on the deal. Anyone who is, is an A-hole in my book.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

While not a performance car by definition, one reason I bought the JSW TDI was performance. That plus 40+ mpg. More torque and 600 pounds lighter than the 2003 A4 Avant I traded in. Definitely a lot more "scoot, scoot" than the Audi and more fun to drive.

Back down to 23 mpg after getting 42 mpg with the TDI. Sure was nice getting 500 - 600 miles out of a tank of fuel, emissions be damned.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

GoHomeBroke said:


> the only thing wrong with your statement is this:
> 
> *you have no way of measuring those figures during a test drive.*
> 
> ...


Of course you do. That was my entire point. I wanted it because of how it felt/drove and now you're back to your tired point of numbers in a magazine ad. If the car feels fundamentally different after the "fix" then you have every right to complain, legally or just bitching to your friends/neighbors. If you need hard data for legal reasons, it won't be hard to come up with and I'm rather confident that VW won't fight you on it.


Now you're either trolling or you can't concede a point. Either way, I'm done arguing.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

1) Precedence - Cheating like this is definitely not new or unprecedented. Scale? Sure.
2) Now & Then - The reaction by market/consumer/government is going to differ from the past incidents, but that is expected given how more matured our market is today (i.e. Age of info/communication speed/proliferation and government's willingness to scrutinize more.).
3) Balance - There will be a compromise that tries to balance resolutions and punishment. I doubt the final outcomes will be as harsh as the politicians and media sensationalists suggest right now in the heat of things. It only makes sense, because consumers shouldn't be inconvenienced by the decisions of selfish people and not all of VW agreed to such shenanigans... only a small minority.

I think the biggest precedent that will come out of this will be justice departments punishing (jailing) executives that motivated/decided this... in addition to whatever fines the company receives. THAT would be meaningful, because for far too long... it has been the grunts that get tossed under the bus while the execs are given a golden parachute while getting a slap on the wrist.

The motivations for greed/power is what drives INDIVIDUAL "LEADERS" to push and/or derive these regrettable strategies. By placing blame on the WHOLE COMPANY (many innocent people), there is little in the way of DEmotivators for future, overly-ambitious executives... to not attempt such shenanigans again. THAT lack of a demotivator is partially what makes people under pressure take the gamble (i.e. Because if caught... the punishment is spread far instead of focused on those who really set it up.).


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Air and water do mix said:


> Of course you do. That was my entire point. I wanted it because of how it felt/drove and now you're back to your tired point of numbers in a magazine ad. If the car feels fundamentally different after the "fix" then you have every right to complain, legally or just bitching to your friends/neighbors. If you need hard data for legal reasons, it won't be hard to come up with and I'm rather confident that VW won't fight you on it.
> 
> 
> Now you're either trolling or you can't concede a point. Either way, I'm done arguing.


if the car is meeting all of it's advertised requirements, what can you sue over? you're mistaking my question for trolling. i'll spell it out for you.


*I. AM. ASKING. A. QUESTION.*

if the car is meeting all of it's advertised requirements, what can you sue over?

everything i've said on this topic before was me stating why i don't see any validation to a lawsuit over the "feel" of the car changing, especially when it's not a car built around the concept to begin with. which is now a question to how others can see that validation.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

uncleho said:


> 1) Precedence - Cheating like this is definitely not new or unprecedented. Scale? Sure.
> 2) Now & Then - The reaction by market/consumer/government is going to differ from the past incidents, but that is expected given how more matured our market is today (i.e. Age of info/communication speed/proliferation and government's willingness to scrutinize more.).
> 3) Balance - There will be a compromise that tries to balance resolutions and punishment. I doubt the final outcomes will be as harsh as the politicians and media sensationalists suggest right now in the heat of things. It only makes sense, because consumers shouldn't be inconvenienced by the decisions of selfish people and not all of VW agreed to such shenanigans... only a small minority.
> 
> ...





> I think the biggest precedent that will come out of this will be justice departments punishing (jailing) executives that motivated/decided this... in addition to whatever fines the company receives. THAT would be meaningful, because for far too long... it has been the grunts that get tossed under the bus while the execs are given a golden parachute while getting a slap on the wrist.


imo, it would've carried more meaning if they had gone after GM as vehemently as they're going after VW.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

ffcol said:


> You would not have to buy another VW, but if you did it would be discounted. It's an incentive to keep customers. I'm not inconvenienced by any of this until they screw my car up with the fix, which I am anticipating will happen. I want it left alone or a buyback and I'm not looking to make money on the deal. Anyone who is, is an A-hole in my book.


For me, a buyback would have to be more generous than just giving me the "pre-scandal" book value. We were intending to drive the A3 for another 4-5 years, so giving me book value today essentially forces me into a new-car-buying mode that I didn't want or plan to be in. 10% sweetener for another VAG car doesn't really seem all that great.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> if the car is meeting all of it's advertised requirements, what can you sue over? you're mistaking my question for trolling. i'll spell it out for you.
> 
> 
> *I. AM. ASKING. A. QUESTION.*
> ...


I've had this question too... However... 99% of owners will probably just take VW's word at whatever numbers they say you'll get after the fix. Not many have logs of real world MPG and what not. 

Even if the mpg and performance numbers meet advertised numbers, you still have general market value reduction as well... abd goodness knows that number is completly hypothetical until there's a histroy of TDI sales/trade in's after the fix is in place.

It's just a huge mess...


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Cooper said:


> While not a performance car by definition, one reason I bought the JSW TDI was performance. That plus 40+ mpg. More torque and 600 pounds lighter than the 2003 A4 Avant I traded in. Definitely a lot more "scoot, scoot" than the Audi and more fun to drive.
> 
> Back down to 23 mpg after getting 42 mpg with the TDI. Sure was nice getting 500 - 600 miles out of a tank of fuel, emissions be damned.


based on info we've seen so far, i don't think the advertised numbers were wrong. i'd love to see someone figure out how to get the numbers on a dyno from the "real world" mode. maybe the difference is bigger than 10-20 hp.


----------



## ffcol (Apr 7, 2011)

btitus said:


> For me, a buyback would have to be more generous than just giving me the "pre-scandal" book value. We were intending to drive the A3 for another 4-5 years, so giving me book value today essentially forces me into a new-car-buying mode that I didn't want or plan to be in. 10% sweetener for another VAG car doesn't really seem all that great.


If someone crashed into you and totals your car, you get fair marker value, no? It's not your fault they crashed into you. That's life.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

ffcol said:


> If someone crashed into you and totals your car, you get fair marker value, no? It's not your fault they crashed into you. That's life.


Yeah, we call that an accident. I think it's a little different when it's pre-meditated.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

E CODE said:


> I've had this question too... However... 99% of owners will probably just take VW's word at whatever numbers they say you'll get after the fix. Not many have logs of real world MPG and what not.
> 
> Even if the mpg and performance numbers meet advertised numbers, you still have general market value reduction as well... abd goodness knows that number is completly hypothetical until there's a histroy of TDI sales/trade in's after the fix is in place.
> 
> It's just a huge mess...



i drove a 2013 JSW TDI for a month. the cluster had a feature that tracked mpg's. over that month, i averaged 45 mpg's. i even babied it a few times to see how high it would go and i saw 50 once. yeah, it was a lot peppier than i would've thought. but if that pep is due to being non compliant with emissions, what is there to do about how it might feel when it's made compliant?


----------



## P-Body (Mar 18, 2007)

ffcol said:


> You would not have to buy another VW, but if you did it would be discounted. It's an incentive to keep customers. I'm not inconvenienced by any of this until they screw my car up with the fix, which I am anticipating will happen. I want it left alone or a buyback and I'm not looking to make money on the deal. Anyone who is, is an A-hole in my book.


And in my book you deserve all of the abuse you will ever receive in your life.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

P-Body said:


> And in my book you deserve all of the abuse you will ever receive in your life.


this is why we can't have nice things. :facepalm:


----------



## WinterWagon (Nov 7, 2012)

I think the average driver is going to have a hard time proving that they expected the vehicle to be faster / have higher horsepower than what was certified.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

GoHomeBroke said:


> imo, it would've carried more meaning if they had gone after GM as vehemently as they're going after VW.


How did they NOT go as vehemently? :screwy:

The company is so scared ****less these days that they're checking, triple checking, making up checks... checking those checks... creating endless VPs to check and check more and more organizations to assure nobody anywhere is going to get a paper cut let alone die. And that fear has turned the MFG arena into this paranoia of safety awareness that it's hard to operate for fear of some accident. 

The only thing the US government (DOJ) doesn't do is go after INDIVIDUALS. They go pretty hard IMO after companies. They've gone after damn near every car MFR and supplier! They've even acted on cases of Japanese suppliers colluding on price fixing.


----------



## cryption (Mar 28, 2006)

I think the average driver isn't going to care. Once the media cycle passes - and people forget about this - some people will bring their vehicles in for a recall and some won't. One the media / people loose interest - everything else looses interested.

Plus the average driver doesn't know automotive forums even exist. Or HP is a thing.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

one more thing i've been wondering. we've seen that it's been spewing 4-40 times more than it should. what is the number than it should be spewing out?


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

I wonder if they might tie the possible air bag recall in with the diesel recall. 
Use it as a way to force those who do not want the diesel recall done but want their air bags replaced.
opcorn:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...bag-recall-might-be-expanded-to-VW-and-others


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

WinterWagon said:


> I think the average driver is going to have a hard time proving that they expected the vehicle to be faster / have higher horsepower than what was certified.


There are teams of lawyers right now ready and waiting to prove this.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

cryption said:


> I think the average driver isn't going to care. Once the media cycle passes - and people forget about this - some people will bring their vehicles in for a recall and some won't. One the media / people loose interest - everything else looses interested.
> 
> Plus the average driver doesn't know automotive forums even exist. Or HP is a thing.


That much is very true. It's really up to federal and states (at least in the USA) with respect to how far and how hard they want to push not only VW, but the consumer.


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

I'll just remind everyone again what Toyota did for the Tacoma frames because it went a long way towards mitigating owner negativity...

*150% the KBB "excellent condition" price, regardless of condition. *

I think that's a solid precedent of how to deal with this stuff.


----------



## P-Body (Mar 18, 2007)

Sporin said:


> I'll just remind everyone again what Toyota did for the Tacoma frames because it went a long way towards mitigating owner negativity...
> 
> *150% the KBB "excellent condition" price, regardless of condition. *
> 
> I think that's a solid precedent of how to deal with this stuff.


No no no.

I think book value plus a stern lecture about how one should never believe marketing is the correct path forward.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

GoHomeBroke said:


> that's the question though. can you file a non frivolous lawsuit because the car you bought, which wasn't legal to begin with, now "_feels_" different after being made legal? VW didn't advertise it as a performance oriented car. they had no ads, that i saw, pointing towards it being sportier or quicker or anything like that. what legal ground would any owner have to stand on in this case? i'm not a legal expert, but there certainly isn't a false advertisement claim in there.


It's pretty easy to demonstrate through performance testing software, dyno performance, and fuel economy tracking tools whether performance is measurably different before/after the software patch.

If the car I purchased performed a certain way--and VW advertised it as being not diesel-like (think of the recent Tanner Faust TDI video)--and it was measurably worse after the 'refit'? That's not frivolous. That's defrauding me as a buyer.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

P-Body said:


> No no no.
> 
> I think book value plus a stern lecture about how one should never believe marketing is the correct path forward.


LOL

Please, don't screw this up for me!


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Numbersix said:


> It's pretty easy to demonstrate through performance testing software, dyno performance, and fuel economy tracking tools whether performance is measurably different before/after the software patch.
> 
> If the car I purchased performed a certain way--and VW advertised it as being not diesel-like (think of the recent Tanner Faust TDI video)--and it was measurably worse after the 'refit'? That's not frivolous. That's defrauding me as a buyer.


that's just it, though. it's already performing differently between "test" mode and "real world" mode. what are the numbers produced in "real world" mode? as far as we've seen, the program used to pass emissions detects when the steering column moves. every dyno keeps the car strapped in place and the steering wheel doesn't move, so every dyno is gonna come back with "test" mode numbers. we don't know how the numbers differ from one mode to the other, do we?

what i mean is if "test" mode gives us the hp/tq numbers we base performance off of, and those are the numbers advertised, what are the hp/tq numbers produced while it's in "real world" mode?


----------



## ffcol (Apr 7, 2011)

P-Body said:


> And in my book you deserve all of the abuse you will ever receive in your life.


:sly: So VW abused you now? What physical or mental pain did they cause? Did someone at VW hurt your feels?


----------



## Parklife (Feb 23, 1999)

GoHomeBroke said:


> the program used to pass emissions detects when the steering column moves. every dyno keeps the car strapped in place and the steering wheel doesn't move, so every dyno is gonna come back with "test" mode numbers. we don't know how the numbers differ from one mode to the other, do we?


Steering angle is one of many criteria that needed to be met, not the sole determinant.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

improvius said:


> There are teams of lawyers right now ready and waiting to prove this.


Just a hypothetical:

If pre-fix the car is dynoed and comes back with just say 200HP and 190TQ (because on the dyno it runs on defeat mode) and VW puts on the window sticker 200HP and 190TQ and post-fix, the car comes back with the same numbers, where is the fraud?

Now say real-world driving, when defeat mode is off, the car is producing 230HP and 210TQ (Its been often claimed on TCL that VW and Audi underestimate their numbers) and then post-fix the car in real-world driving is producing 200HP and 190TQ. 

"IF", key word there for those that don't read, if the car is producing the advertised power levels when bought, I don't see how they can be sued because it feels different. I almost feel like VW lawyers could just say its a placebo effect post-fix that customers were led to believe the performance would suffer by media outlets, but look the numbers are all the same. 

That's just my opinion on the whole it feels different lawsuit. Where I think VW would find legal trouble from consumers is the whole emission thing. But again, the car most likely wasn't advertised with that it gives off X level of CO2 and NOx but rather that it could pass emission and inspections. If the car can pass emissions pre-scandal (which it did) and ceteris paribus it passes emissions post-fix, I don't know how successful class action suits will be. That of course doesn't mean VW won't try a buy-back or other things to save face or try and retain some customers and rebuild their reputation.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Parklife said:


> Steering angle is one of many criteria that needed to be met, not the sole determinant.


rear wheels not turning, no change in ambient temperature, steering column not moving, etc... the fact is that the car could tell when it was being tested and the question still remains: what were the hp/tq numbers in "real world" mode?


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Sporin said:


> I'll just remind everyone again what Toyota did for the Tacoma frames because it went a long way towards mitigating owner negativity...
> 
> *150% the KBB "excellent condition" price, regardless of condition. *
> 
> I think that's a solid precedent of how to deal with this stuff.


How many vehicles did that buyback involve?


----------



## Charlie84 (Aug 13, 2008)

noatonement said:


> Just a hypothetical:
> 
> If pre-fix the car is dynoed and comes back with just say 200HP and 190TQ (because on the dyno it runs on defeat mode) and VW puts on the window sticker 200HP and 190TQ and post-fix, the car comes back with the same numbers, where is the fraud?
> 
> ...


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Parklife said:


> Steering angle is one of many criteria that needed to be met, not the sole determinant.


Hey Parklife! :wave:

I haven't seen you 'round these parts in a while.



















Now that song is going to be stuck in my head a while... At least it's a good song!


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

Keep seeing the word "refit" in the latest articles.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/29/...on-diesel-vehicles/?ncid=edlinkusauto00000016

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/29/us-volkswagen-emissions-plan-idUSKCN0RT0OL20150929

http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswa...emissions-rigged-vehicles-says-ceo-1443525496


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

*I figured it out...*

I know what VW will do.

They'll patch the software making it run in test mode, meeting EPA specs..

The same patch will also add 10-20mpg to the read out for fuel economy!


You're welcome, VW.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

Charlie84 said:


>


:laugh:


----------



## Parklife (Feb 23, 1999)

Air and water do mix said:


> Hey Parklife! :wave:
> 
> I haven't seen you 'round these parts in a while.


Hey there!

What can I say, this trainwreck made me crawl out of the woodwork. I should've learned my lesson after my two previous TDIs, but the Mk7 was just so darned nice to drive...


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Mazda 3s said:


> How many vehicles did that buyback involve?


http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/07/toyota-offers-to-buy-back-rusty-tacomas/?_r=0

looks like 813K trucks

in line with current VW/Audi numbers in the USA


----------



## pikeR (Nov 22, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> the only thing wrong with your statement is this:
> 
> . . . .. all i'm saying is i don't see how the "feel" changing with the car having to be made legally compliant is anything to validate a lawsuit. if the numbers as advertised aren't anywhere near it, yeah. but just off of how it feels alone, i don't see it.


Cool. 
So all VW has to do is give lawyers your number, and you can talk to them and explain to them why any 'performance' lawsuit is frivolous. I'm sure lawyers will see your point, and no lawsuits will be filed. Because lawyers never take on frivolous cases, and your argument is awesome. :thumbup:

How about this one? 
Some VW owners really are 'green' conscious. Climate change and all that. What if they can't sleep at night, and perhaps even suicidal over all the NOx they have been emitting over the years? Their life has been a sham -- they thought they were living a responsible, green life, but now will be shunned by their green friends for rolling coal all along? Haven't they been violated by VW? A couple million is a drop in the bucket to the pain thrust upon them by VW.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

pikeR said:


> Cool.
> So all VW has to do is give lawyers your number, and you can talk to them and explain to them why any 'performance' lawsuit is frivolous. I'm sure lawyers will see your point, and no lawsuits will be filed. Because lawyers never take on frivolous cases, and your argument is awesome. :thumbup:
> 
> How about this one?
> Some VW owners really are 'green' conscious. Climate change and all that. What if they can't sleep at night, and perhaps even suicidal over all the NOx they have been emitting over the years? Their life has been a sham -- they thought they were living a responsible, green life, but now will be shunned by their green friends for rolling coal all along? Haven't they been violated by VW? A couple million is a drop in the bucket to the pain thrust upon them by VW.


and loss of consortium.....you left that out.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

Sporin said:


> I'll just remind everyone again what Toyota did for the Tacoma frames because it went a long way towards mitigating owner negativity...
> 
> *150% the KBB "excellent condition" price, regardless of condition. *
> 
> I think that's a solid precedent of how to deal with this stuff.


My brother-in-law was very pleased with the Toyota buy-back, as I posted a while ago. :beer:


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)

I think some people will need at least 3 sessions of NOx-enablement therapy per week...onging of course. You never get over this.


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

noatonement said:


> Just a hypothetical:
> 
> If pre-fix the car is dynoed and comes back with just say 200HP and 190TQ (because on the dyno it runs on defeat mode) and VW puts on the window sticker 200HP and 190TQ and post-fix, the car comes back with the same numbers, where is the fraud?
> 
> ...


I'm no lawyer. And I hate arguing with lawyer types. But what about those that liked the way the TDI performed on the the drive? If they feel and drive with less pep after the "fix" who's to say those buyers wouldn't have chosen differently at the time of purchase?


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

CK98Beeetle said:


> I'm no lawyer. And I hate arguing with lawyer types. But what about those that liked the way the TDI performed on the the drive? If they feel and drive with less pep after the "fix" who's to say those buyers wouldn't have chosen differently at the time of purchase?


I would have chosen differently for sure if my TDi was putting out 120bhp and 200 torks instead of the 140/235 it came with.

Oh and all this nonsense about subjective "feel" and how that's hard to measure - erm, no it isn't. Put the freaking cars on a dyno before the fix....and after. Not so subjective anymore. Lots of dumb in TCL today.


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)

Does anyone think that the fix will involve the addition of start / stop technology to the affected vehicles. Could a TDI owner deal with that?


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

I asked about h.p./torque at the Audi dealer when they also said the issue is concern about longevity of emission components with the fix. They haven't seen any performance figures yet.


----------



## vweatsvtec (Dec 16, 2009)

I know it's a gti but still funny to me nonetheless.


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

DerSpiegel said:


> I would have chosen differently for sure if my TDi was putting out 120bhp and 200 torks instead of the 140/235 it came with.
> 
> Oh and all this nonsense about subjective "feel" and how that's hard to measure - erm, no it isn't. Put the freaking cars on a dyno before the fix....and after. Not so subjective anymore. Lots of dumb in TCL today.


But that is the issue...
If you put one on a dyno now it will run the cheat code and report a number most likely lower than what it is actually producing when you are driving on the road.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

ClownCar said:


> I think some people will need at least 3 sessions of NOx-enablement therapy per week...onging of course. You never get over this.


Post Cleandiesel Settlement Disorder


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)

Silly_me said:


> Post Cleandiesel Settlement Disorder


Winterkorn by Proxy Syndrome


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

ClownCar said:


> Winterkorn by Proxy Syndrome


I don't think Obamacare covers the ointment for that, be thankful you are a socialist pig.


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

NeverEnoughCars said:


> But that is the issue...
> If you put one on a dyno now it will run the cheat code and report a number most likely lower than what it is actually producing when you are driving on the road.


Good point. So basically, the car drove mysteriously better than it was advertised. Beat the competition, (BMW, GM) It helped them sell the car. Word of mouth. 

So they have to ask themselves if they want to fix things legally on a technicality or fix it AND maintain their fanbase. Hmmmm...I get the feeling they'll end up doing both. Really don't have an option if they want to rebuild their image.


----------



## pretzelogik (Oct 1, 2010)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKef1JFpiCA


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

CK98Beeetle said:


> I'm no lawyer. And I hate arguing with lawyer types. But what about those that liked the way the TDI performed on the the drive? If they feel and drive with less pep after the "fix" who's to say those buyers wouldn't have chosen differently at the time of purchase?


I have to assume both sides, VW and lawyers, will be doing both dyno testing and some metrics on actual performance of the before and after.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

ClownCar said:


> Does anyone think that the fix will involve the addition of start / stop technology to the affected vehicles. Could a TDI owner deal with that?


That will only make it worse, because stopping the engine means that all the emissions equipment cools down. It needs to be fully hot in order to work its most efficiently.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

vweatsvtec said:


> I know it's a gti but still funny to me nonetheless.


Could be a GTD in the EU. 

I think you won the thread, actually.


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> There are a lot of cars, trucks, motorbikes, that legally shouldn't be on the roads but are allowed to continue on (in states with no mandatory inspection). Forcing a registration block on a vehicle due to manufacturer maladies is political suicide and not murrican. I will be shocked, shocked I tell you! if it were to happen.
> 
> You think an elected official is going to punish an American citizen because of the acts of a foreign company that hoodwinked our own government? I wouldn't be surprised if club TDI revolutionaries fought any such 'forced recall' legally. I mean, they were nutjobs before this fracas :laugh:


Few pages late with this response, but California officials have already suggested they will do exactly that. 



> "There should be no impact at this point, because the investigation is ongoing," CARB spokesman David Clegern told Consumer Reports.
> 
> Once the official recall is issued, however, the clock will begin ticking for California owners.
> 
> ...


Source: *Consumer Reports*

Before someone else says it, yes - every state is not Kommiefornia, but many others follow California's lead when it comes to emissions legislation. The EPA is likely to also pursue this one rigorously given the large number of non-compliant vehicles. Just look at how, with fairly limited resources, they chase down a handful of illegal Land Rovers or Skylines that don't belong here - they definitely have the legal authority and you can't deny their determination. Avoiding this recall may become easier said than done.

>8^)
ER


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Hahahaha, Cali TDI owners are screwed opcorn:


----------



## Strikelin (Jan 4, 2009)

All VW has to do is get the car to pass Emmisions while within the advertised specs of the car, not the "bonus" mpg rates or hp customers have noticed. While tdi owners may not like losing mileage, the car has already performed much higher than spec for a long period of time. To put it bluntly, if I start selling jackets in a store, and customers quickly notice that I have accidentally manufactured a 100 dollar bill InTo each pocket, can they in the future sue me when my jackets no longer contain 100 dollar bills? FACK NO.

The way I see it, vw will apply a software update that will get the car into compliance, while still maintaining the advertised mpg rate. If 11 million owners think they are going to profit from this, boy do they have another thing coming. Buyback? Not likely. Vw would spend the money bribing officials long before it ever got to that point.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Parklife said:


> Hey there!
> 
> What can I say, this trainwreck made me crawl out of the woodwork. I should've learned my lesson after my two previous TDIs, but the Mk7 was just so darned nice to drive...


Yeah, it is. The only thing that makes me think "Jetta" over the MkVII is the larger back seat (kids) and the additional noise isolation afforded by having a real trunk because of the bulkhead between the passenger compartment (highway car).

Damn I like that MkVII, though. I'm tempted by the new wagons even more than the regular Golf, too. :thumbup:


----------



## ffcol (Apr 7, 2011)

Strikelin said:


> All VW has to do is get the car to pass Emmisions while within the advertised specs of the car, not the "bonus" mpg rates or hp customers have noticed. While tdi owners may not like losing mileage, the car has already performed much higher than spec for a long period of time. To put it bluntly, if I start selling jackets in a store, and customers quickly notice that I have accidentally manufactured a 100 dollar bill InTo each pocket, can they in the future sue me when my jackets no longer contain 100 dollar bills? FACK NO.
> 
> The way I see it, vw will apply a software update that will get the car into compliance, while still maintaining the advertised mpg rate. If 11 million owners think they are going to profit from this, boy do they have another thing coming. Buyback? Not likely. Vw would spend the money bribing officials long before it ever got to that point.



VW would be taking the 100 dollar bill from our jackets in your analogy.


----------



## Cole Orlling (Mar 18, 2015)

GoHomePossum said:


> Hahahaha, Cali citizens are screwed opcorn:


FTFY. Strange people running that place.


----------



## iliaonabike (Apr 30, 2011)

So some people are seriously embarrassed now to drive their vw tdi or a vw in general? 

That's probably the most hilarious thing I have read all week. 

Maybe now is a good time to let everyone know that I'm really subconscious about the fact that I drive a Jetta ,which, a lot of people consider to be a "girl car". Easy fix. I de badged the trunk lid.
Now I don't have to worry about strangers judging me thinking I drive a Jetta or a vw for that matter. I'm such a winner.


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

The Onion contributes:










Well, it's definitely mainstream news now. :laugh:


----------



## jimb (May 29, 2000)

ffcol said:


> VW would be taking the 100 dollar bill from our jackets in your analogy.


It would depend on how long you owned the car. If you bought the car 4 years ago and benefited from better fuel mileage, I would argue that you spent most of the $100 already. If you bought the car last week, you are correct that you are losing the $100 bill.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Strikelin said:


> The way I see it, vw will apply a software update that will get the car into compliance, while still maintaining the advertised mpg rate.


They already tried the software route - CARB squashed it for still not meeting the specs... 

No matter what the fix, anyone who's been following the details would be very, very skeptical of a simple software 'fix'.


----------



## surefooted (May 21, 2001)

Strikelin said:


> All VW has to do is get the car to pass Emmisions while within the advertised specs of the car, not the "bonus" mpg rates or hp customers have noticed. While tdi owners may not like losing mileage, the car has already performed much higher than spec for a long period of time. To put it bluntly, if I start selling jackets in a store, and customers quickly notice that I have accidentally manufactured a 100 dollar bill InTo each pocket, can they in the future sue me when my jackets no longer contain 100 dollar bills? FACK NO.
> 
> The way I see it, vw will apply a software update that will get the car into compliance, while still maintaining the advertised mpg rate. If 11 million owners think they are going to profit from this, boy do they have another thing coming. Buyback? Not likely. Vw would spend the money bribing officials long before it ever got to that point.


What you fail to realize is that if the TDI could pass emission AND get the advertised specs of the car, they never would've cheated in the first place. So no, it' snot a simple "get the car to pass Emmisions while within the advertised specs of the car". The cars CAN'T get the performance while ALSO passing emissions.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Peloton25 said:


> The EPA is likely to also pursue this one rigorously given the large number of non-compliant vehicles.


[Red O'Neil]_Nah nah nah nah nah the cars were EPA certified when sold. You don't keep them from being registered because that agency is worthless at doing what its paid to. You got the fresh USDA meat Elias._[/Red O'Neil]


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

Damn I was thinking maybe itd be the time to get an older A3 tdi bit now I couldn't even register it.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

surefooted said:


> What you fail to realize is that if the TDI could pass emission AND get the advertised specs of the car, they never would've cheated in the first place. So no, it' snot a simple "get the car to pass Emmisions while within the advertised specs of the car". The cars CAN'T get the performance while ALSO passing emissions.


People in this thread are idiots. You have the CEO of one of the largest companies in the world resigning in less than a week over this, and the "experts" at vortex think it's a hilarious joke that will be pinned on the gullible TDI owners. Wake up -- if it was such an easy fix, VW would have done it 4 years ago and Martin Winterkorn would still have a job. Sheesh.


----------



## Strikelin (Jan 4, 2009)

surefooted said:


> What you fail to realize is that if the TDI could pass emission AND get the advertised specs of the car, they never would've cheated in the first place. So no, it' snot a simple "get the car to pass Emmisions while within the advertised specs of the car". The cars CAN'T get the performance while ALSO passing emissions.


That's not true. It is very possible that VW could apply a fix that a) fixes the emissions, b) attains the advertised mileage and c) compromises the longevity of the engine. For a company who has to warranty these cars, cheating previously might have still had its merits, financially. Now, compliance would be the lesser of two evils to the corporate bottom line.

Just like I can chip a GTI and get extra horsepower and mileage out of it. Surely that must not be possible of vw would have done it from factory, right? There is more to the game to consider than what's in the consumers best interest, clearly.

Edit. Let me put it into a different perspective for you. Has anyone in the history of humankind ever stolen anything that they could have simply afforded, and purchased legally? FACK YA. Why though? 
VW COULD have added the defeat device to make the car (capable of passing, without it perhaps) cheaper to warranty.

Hans circa 2005: "the new tdi is ready to go. It passes emmsions and gets 43 combined mpg. The one problem is the software pushes the engine hard, and we estimate a 42 percent failure rate in 4 years."
Ceo " what can we do to fix it?"
Hans" change the software to let it breathe a little more. We will save 4.2 billion in warranty claims. It
Will pollute more though. Assuming we ever get caught, the savings, properly invested will be worth more than the subsequent penalties."
Ceo " make it happen"


----------



## JettaBrando (Jul 8, 2003)

Long time lurker. I'll leave this here:

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/aut...sels-doesnt-apply-u-s-vehicles-source-n435746


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

Strikelin said:


> That's not true. It is very possible that VW could apply a fix that a) fixes the emissions, b) attains the advertised mileage and c) compromises the longevity of the engine. For a company who has to warranty these cars, cheating previously might have still had its merits, financially. Now, compliance would be the lesser of two evils to the corporate bottom line.
> 
> Just like I can chip a GTI and get extra horsepower and mileage out of it. Surely that must not be possible of vw would have done it from factory, right? There is more to the game to consider than what's in the consumers best interest, clearly.
> 
> ...


It sounds like the fix in the US will be urea. That shouldn't compromise any performance and I have to believe free urea for life on those cars. But it won't be cheap to VW to apply the fix.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

pikeR said:


> Cool.
> So all VW has to do is give lawyers your number, and you can talk to them and explain to them why any 'performance' lawsuit is frivolous. I'm sure lawyers will see your point, and no lawsuits will be filed. Because lawyers never take on frivolous cases, and your argument is awesome. :thumbup:
> 
> How about this one?
> Some VW owners really are 'green' conscious. Climate change and all that. What if they can't sleep at night, and perhaps even suicidal over all the NOx they have been emitting over the years? Their life has been a sham -- they thought they were living a responsible, green life, but now will be shunned by their green friends for rolling coal all along? Haven't they been violated by VW? A couple million is a drop in the bucket to the pain thrust upon them by VW.


wow. way to assume i'm trying to be an armchair lawyer, not answer my question, and pose an entirely different scenario that has absolutely nothing to do with the question i'm asking. and all in one ****ing post! look at you go! most people would have to work at so much stupidity, but it's a natural occurrence for you, ain't it? 

what part of *I. AM. ASKING. A. QUESTION.* didn't resonate with you? we all know there's no case some lawyers won't try. rather than give your tangent more thought, i'm gonna go back to my question, and hopefully someone with a few more brain cells can at least attempt to answer.

with so many people reporting that their TDI's were performing better than expected, coupled with the fact that the car performed differently in "test" mode and "real world" mode, is there any way to see what the hp/tq numbers are while it's in "real world" mode?


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

jnm2.0t said:


> It sounds like the fix in the US will be urea. That shouldn't compromise any performance and I have to believe free urea for life on those cars. But it won't be cheap to VW to apply the fix.


Makes sense, since the EPA is more worried about NOx than CO2. In Europe the fix will probably be software, since they are more worried about C02 than NOx.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

jnm2.0t said:


> It sounds like the fix in the US will be urea. That shouldn't compromise any performance and I have to believe free urea for life on those cars. But it won't be cheap to VW to apply the fix.


i posted this link yesterday, but i'm guessing it was missed. both times.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswa...emissions-rigged-vehicles-says-ceo-1443525496



> In some cases hardware changes will also be necessary. In vehicles with 1.2-liter and 1.6-liter engines, which aren’t sold in the U.S., a hardware change will likely be necessary because a fuel injection pump has to be replaced to ensure a smooth ride, Mr. Buhlmann said. In Europe, vehicles with 2-liter engines will only need a software update, *but it isn’t clear whether that would suffice in the U.S. due to different standards.*


we all know that it's not only because of the more stringent standards.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

jnm2.0t said:


> It sounds like the fix in the US will be urea. That shouldn't compromise any performance and I have to believe free urea for life on those cars. But it won't be cheap to VW to apply the fix.


They're not going to retrofit these cars with urea.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

MXTHOR3 said:


> They're not going to retrofit these cars with urea.


Source? 

I mean... everything is speculation at this point, but it's pretty obvious that software alone can't do it (they tried it, CARB sqaushed it). Urea is going to be a massive pain in the but for sure.... but it's the option to reduce NOx is it not?


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

Replacing the fuel pump on all these cars would be a good thing, especially the folks with early cars that have the first few variants of the Bosch pump. My car was an early 2011. I think I had the 3rd version of the pump, and there already was a 4th variant when I received my car.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

JettaBrando said:


> Long time lurker. I'll leave this here:
> 
> http://www.nbcnews.com/business/aut...sels-doesnt-apply-u-s-vehicles-source-n435746


because our market has more stringent requirements. the proposed fix for other markets will be as simple as a reflash, with some needing new fuel pumps. ours is complicated. we've suggested so far that it could be as complicated as adding Urea systems to cars not designed for them. and that takes time. 

the last thing VW needs is another headache because they tried to fix this issue quickly. VW needs a measured response to this. it will take time, a few months maybe, to get it right. or as close as possible. if they slap something together and send it over, the fallout from it failing will only make a bad situation worse.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

GoHomeBroke said:


> because our market has more stringent requirements. the proposed fix for other markets will be as simple as a reflash, with some needing new fuel pumps. ours is complicated. we've suggested so far that it could be as complicated as adding Urea systems to cars not designed for them. and that takes time.
> 
> the last thing VW needs is another headache because they tried to fix this issue quickly. VW needs a measured response to this. it will take time, a few months maybe, to get it right. or as close as possible. if they slap something together and send it over, the fallout from it failing will only make a bad situation worse.


Except I heard on the news yesterday that the US Government has given VW until October 7 to present their plan for the fix. I can't imagine they could have a fully detailed plan for all vehicles by then.


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

spockcat said:


> Except I heard on the news yesterday that the US Government has given VW until October 7 to present their plan for the fix. I can't imagine they could have a fully detailed plan for all vehicles by then.


VW already knows exactly what they need to do to fix this. They've had over a year to figure this out. The only thing they have to decide now is how much money they're going to spend on it.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

improvius said:


> VW already knows exactly what they need to do to fix this. They've had over a year to figure this out. The only thing they have to decide now is how much money they're going to spend on it.


Unless they've been working on multiple fixes, this is incorrect. They tried a software fix for CARB earlier this year and it failed. That would mean they've only been working on a new fix for 6 months or so...


----------



## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

E CODE said:


> Unless they've been working on multiple fixes, this is incorrect. They tried a software fix for CARB earlier this year and it failed. That would mean they've only been working on a new fix for 6 months or so...


I would imagine any "fix" would mostly be known during the development of the engine. When the engineers realized the engine would not pass US emissions they had to have had ideas on how to make it work, including compromises to power and efficiency. They were then probably told don't worry about that, just make it pass during the test.

I realize a retrofit is different than a change during the design, but the solutions have to be along the same paths.


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

E CODE said:


> Unless they've been working on multiple fixes, this is incorrect. They tried a software fix for CARB earlier this year and it failed. That would mean they've only been working on a new fix for 6 months or so...


But they've _always_ had compliant software right from the start of this whole mess. They know exactly what to do to run the car with legal emissions. They've also known that there's a significant cost to doing so, either in performance, economy, longevity, or some combination of the three. I have no doubt whatsoever that the various possible solutions have been figured out from an engineering perspective a long time ago. Now it's just a matter of management deciding which of those hits they're going to take, and how much it will cost them financially.

Do you really think VW expected that last software update to work? Of course they didn't. They knew exactly what would happen, and that real-world driving still wouldn't be in compliance. They just rolled something out to stall the CARB inspectors.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

E CODE said:


> Source?
> 
> I mean... everything is speculation at this point, but it's pretty obvious that software alone can't do it (they tried it, CARB sqaushed it). Urea is going to be a massive pain in the but for sure.... but it's the option to reduce NOx is it not?


I get where you're coming from, but holy hell can you imagine the cost/time that's going to take? I think they can easily meet emissions with the current system, but the power/mpg is going to be affected quite a bit.

At least that's my take on it. I'm interested to see what will eventually happen.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

GoHomeBroke said:


> is there any way to see what the hp/tq numbers are while it's in "real world" mode?


I heard you, and yes, there is. You need a bit of electronics, but it can be done. First, a four-wheel dyno that can be driven at the rear to match the speed at the front. Not sure how to get this to happen, but big rubber band? Probably easier to highjack the rear ABS sensors and feed them data from one of the front wheels. Then code the traction control off. Next, unplug the steering angle sensor and connect it to a powered input with a variable response knob. Or a simulator that can give sweep information. Then strap the car down and run it.

I'm going to start a thread on the Bosch aspect, because the Bosch aspect is pretty important.

edit - link to new Bosch thread. Please move discussion of the dyno aspect over there.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

atomicalex said:


> I heard you, and yes, there is. You need a bit of electronics, but it can be done. First, a four-wheel dyno that can be driven at the rear to match the speed at the front. Not sure how to get this to happen, but big rubber band? Probably easier to highjack the rear ABS sensors and feed them data from one of the front wheels. Then code the traction control off. Next, unplug the steering angle sensor and connect it to a powered input with a variable response knob. Or a simulator that can give sweep information. Then strap the car down and run it.
> 
> I'm going to start a thread on the Bosch aspect, because the Bosch aspect is pretty important.


our Touareg TDi is tested bi-annually for opacity (Nevada smog regs) on a 4 wheel dyno....there is only 1 in Vegas.....and costs $60 for the smog test. :facepalm: 

it's actually a Mustang Dyno with additional equipment that allows a sniffer in the tailpipe for diesels.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

atomicalex said:


> I heard you, and yes, there is. You need a bit of electronics, but it can be done. First, a four-wheel dyno that can be driven at the rear to match the speed at the front. Not sure how to get this to happen, but big rubber band? Probably easier to highjack the rear ABS sensors and feed them data from one of the front wheels. Then code the traction control off. Next, unplug the steering angle sensor and connect it to a powered input with a variable response knob. Or a simulator that can give sweep information. Then strap the car down and run it.
> 
> I'm going to start a thread on the Bosch aspect, because the Bosch aspect is pretty important.


I was thinking this very thing. It usually isn't hard to fool a computer with sensor data if you know what data to manipulate and what parameters are taken into account. Would the steering wheel angle sensors need to match wheel speed up front since they're rotating at different speeds in the real world but not on the dyno? I seriously doubt it, but it's possible.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

atomicalex said:


> I heard you, and yes, there is. You need a bit of electronics, but it can be done. First, a four-wheel dyno that can be driven at the rear to match the speed at the front. Not sure how to get this to happen, but big rubber band? Probably easier to highjack the rear ABS sensors and feed them data from one of the front wheels. Then code the traction control off. Next, unplug the steering angle sensor and connect it to a powered input with a variable response knob. Or a simulator that can give sweep information. Then strap the car down and run it.
> 
> I'm going to start a thread on the Bosch aspect, because the Bosch aspect is pretty important.


thank you. i wish i knew more people who had the ability to conduct such a test. i'd be highly interested to see if someone could do this, and what numbers they would come up with. based on what's advertised, and how it feels to drive, i wouldn't be shocked to see the real world hp/tq 20+ higher than what's advertised.



Air and water do mix said:


> I was thinking this very thing. It usually isn't hard to fool a computer with sensor data if you know what data to manipulate and what parameters are taken into account. Would the steering wheel angle sensors need to match wheel speed up front since they're rotating at different speeds in the real world but not on the dyno? I seriously doubt it, but it's possible.


if it's got a computer, someone can figure out how to fool/bypass it. just need someone to figure out how.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

MXTHOR3 said:


> I get where you're coming from, but holy hell can you imagine the cost/time that's going to take? I think they can easily meet emissions with the current system, but the power/mpg is going to be affected quite a bit.
> 
> At least that's my take on it. I'm interested to see what will eventually happen.


The cost is going to be significant... but, adding urea to these engines saved them about $500 up front... so lets say they have a way to just pay the labour and $500... that might be $1500 per vehicle (super conservtively). 
That kind of cost is going to be a lot better than every owner looking for compensation for getting less than advertised performance. Avoids all the calls of 'fraud' etc... 

This is coming from a TDI owner, and I've only had the car (since new) for about a year. Plus, I'm in Canada, and our emissions are technically 11% stricter than the EPA guidelines here in Ontario... so I'm very interested in what happens...


----------



## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

Would it not be cheaper to pay customers money back for decreased fuel mileage, than installing a urea system? especially considering that the car, ran in test mode, meets all the requirements 

I think most people would touch one that had been retrofitted with a urea system. 
what would that involve, other than the urea tank, a modified exhaust system, sensors, computer remap, and lots of wiring?


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

E CODE said:


> The cost is going to be significant... but, adding urea to these engines saved them about $500 up front... so lets say they have a way to just pay the labour and $500... that might be $1500 per vehicle (super conservtively).
> That kind of cost is going to be a lot better than every owner looking for compensation for getting less than advertised performance. Avoids all the calls of 'fraud' etc...
> 
> This is coming from a TDI owner, and I've only had the car (since new) for about a year. Plus, I'm in Canada, and our emissions are technically 11% stricter than the EPA guidelines here in Ontario... so I'm very interested in what happens...


How do you retrofit an AdBlue system (including the tank) into a car that wasn't designed for it (MK6 Golf, MK5 Jetta, MK2 NB)?


----------



## MeineFolks'wagen (May 8, 2002)

Plus you have to factor in how many people are actually going to allow them to do the recall. Just because one is issued doesn't mean every car affected by it is going to be serviced. I know Jeep has been having the same issues and has come under fire - but they can't *make* people bring their vehicles in for recall. If I had been able to buy the TDI I looked at back in July, you had better believe I wouldn't allow them to do a recall on it that would retard performance and/or mileage.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

MeineFolks'wagen said:


> Plus you have to factor in how many people are actually going to allow them to do the recall. Just because one is issued doesn't mean every car affected by it is going to be serviced. I know Jeep has been having the same issues and has come under fire - but they can't *make* people bring their vehicles in for recall. If I had been able to buy the TDI I looked at back in July, you had better believe I wouldn't allow them to do a recall on it that would retard performance and/or mileage.


You won't have a choice. You'll have to get the car serviced or you won't be able to register it.


----------



## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

vwwtchr said:


> You won't have a choice. You'll have to get the car serviced or you won't be able to register it.


then what happens to all those with DPF deletes and tunes?


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

71DubBugBug said:


> then what happens to all those with DPF deletes and tunes?


failed smogs


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

71DubBugBug said:


> then what happens to all those with DPF deletes and tunes?


Anybody who did a DPF delete is already in violation of the CAA. It's basically never enforced, but they can be issued a fix-it ticket and required to return their vehicle to an emissions legal configuration if they want to be legal to register their car in a region that performs emissions checks. Otherwise those cars will have to be sold off to somebody who lives outside of an emissions controlled area. The car would still be illegal under the CAA, but the EPA doesn't go after individual owners at this time.



JettaBrando said:


> Long time lurker. I'll leave this here:
> 
> http://www.nbcnews.com/business/aut...sels-doesnt-apply-u-s-vehicles-source-n435746


Just as a reminder, the Euro5 standard is for the equivalent of 0.18 g/mi of NOx wheras USA's T2B5 standard is 0.07 g/mi. It should surprise exactly no one that it's more than twice as easy to make the cars pass Euro5 as it is to pass T2B5.


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

71DubBugBug said:


> then what happens to all those with DPF deletes and tunes?





You'reDrunk said:


> failed smogs


People with these deletes don't get "smogged" or sniffed every year or at registration time. My car's don't get smogged because of where I live. Theoretically, I could delete the cats and never worry about it again if the yearly safety inspection didn't catch the visual difference.


The issue is, will this eventual recall be mandated in such a way so that your car MUST be recalled by such and such a date, and if the fix isn't implemented by that date, your car is no longer able to be registered/operated legally on the roads? Will you have to show proof of this recall at time of registration/ownership transfer? 

I feel like some of you saying "well, I just won't do the recall if it degrades performance" are really ignoring some serious possibilities, here.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

GoHomeBroke said:


> with so many people reporting that their TDI's were performing better than expected, coupled with the fact that the car performed differently in "test" mode and "real world" mode, *is there any way to see what the hp/tq numbers are while it's in "real world" mode?*


yes
the car could pull a dyno trailer.



Hajduk said:


> How do you retrofit an AdBlue system (including the tank) into a car that wasn't designed for it (MK6 Golf, MK5 Jetta, MK2 NB)?


you give up some trunk space for a tank, you add some lines to the doser, you add the injection system to the exhaust, etc.
itll be kludgy, but im sure they can hamfist something in there


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Tornado2dr said:


> The issue is, will this eventual recall be mandated in such a way so that your car MUST be recalled by such and such a date, and if the fix isn't implemented by that date, your car is no longer able to be registered/operated legally on the roads? Will you have to show proof of this recall at time of registration/ownership transfer?


That's up the states to enforce, not the EPA. The EPA only deals with the manufacturers.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Hajduk said:


> That's up the states to enforce, not the EPA. The EPA only deals with the manufacturers.


DOJ, however....


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

Hajduk said:


> That's up the states to enforce, not the EPA. The EPA only deals with the manufacturers.


If the epa throws down a consent order to the states - you'd be damned skippy that the states will enforce in this manner. Consent orders are often tied to funding, no comply=no dinero, so the states will implement some sort of compliance process to ensure the gravy train keeps coming down the tracks.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Hajduk said:


> That's up the states to enforce, not the EPA. The EPA only deals with the manufacturers.


How it is normally done or by law? I can see a lot of reasons the EPA doesn't want to deal directly with individuals on a normal basis but also a good reason to get involved with them this time. No testing needed, just simple lists and a big company that will pay the bill for the hassle.

Considering the manufacturer broke the law they might want to move on to to the individual to verify it is being fixed and the system to do it is very simple. Have each state cross reference the registration list with the completed recall list. Give a reasonable time period to have the recall done and then as simple as automated letters back to the owner saying "denied". If VW can create the automated letters they can also pay for the automated "denied" list.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

E CODE said:


> The cost is going to be significant... but, adding urea to these engines saved them about $500 up front... so lets say they have a way to just pay the labour and $500... that might be $1500 per vehicle (super conservtively).
> That kind of cost is going to be a lot better than every owner looking for compensation for getting less than advertised performance. Avoids all the calls of 'fraud' etc...
> 
> This is coming from a TDI owner, and I've only had the car (since new) for about a year. Plus, I'm in Canada, and our emissions are technically 11% stricter than the EPA guidelines here in Ontario... so I'm very interested in what happens...


I see we both get to deal with Ontario Drive Clean  You can easily get around that however.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Tornado2dr said:


> If the epa throws down a consent order to the states - you'd be damned skippy that the states will enforce in this manner. Consent orders are often tied to funding, no comply=no dinero, so the states will implement some sort of compliance process to ensure the gravy train keeps coming down the tracks.


it doesn't seem like they will take this route



> Will I be required to have my vehicle repaired once it is recalled?
> 
> That depends. Some states require proof that emissions recalls have been performed prior to issuing the vehicle registration. Even in states that do not have this requirement, it is important to have emissions recalls performed because without the repairs, your vehicle may be emitting harmful pollutants in excess of the federal emission standards. You are not responsible for repair costs related to an emissions recall.
> 
> http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/violations.htm#repair


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

Tornado2dr said:


> If the epa throws down a consent order to the states - you'd be damned skippy that the states will enforce in this manner..


Yep. EPA isn't in the business to deal with with State MVA/DMV customers. That's why those state agencies exist.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

MXTHOR3 said:


> I see we both get to deal with Ontario Drive Clean  You can easily get around that however.


Yep... I was almost thinking of going to a test center with my car and getting them to test it as is, just to see if it would pass...


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

You'reDrunk said:


> our Touareg TDi is tested bi-annually for opacity (Nevada smog regs) on a 4 wheel dyno....there is only 1 in Vegas


Is the smog in Vegas bad enough to warrant such a test? 



Hajduk said:


> it doesn't seem like they will take this route


*UNPRECEDENTED!!!!!* :laugh:


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

jsausley said:


> Going to be hilarious when they recall 11 million cars and about fifty cars show up. No one wants worse fuel mileage. :laugh:


No way I'm taking mine in.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

AJB said:


> No way I'm taking mine in.


As many keep saying: it's not really going to be something you can disregard.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> Is the smog in Vegas bad enough to warrant such a test?
> 
> 
> 
> *UNPRECEDENTED!!!!!* :laugh:


yes. we are in a valley, and we have many days of "non-attainment" so particulate matter is of greatest concern. we fall under the PM10 guidelines for smog. but NONE of the diesels is tested for NOx emissions.....go figure.

in fact this morning on my way into work I noticed the haze hanging over the valley.....it's not been windy for a couple of weeks (unusual) to blow out any smog.


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

AJB said:


> No way I'm taking mine in.


What about the possible air bag recall?
You going to also avoid that one?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Turbio! said:


> As many keep saying: it's not really going to be something you can disregard.


As many on this board keep saying, that's not what the EPA is saying.



You'reDrunk said:


> yes. we are in a valley, and we have many days of "non-attainment" so particulate matter is of greatest concern.


Had no idea, I just figured, well, desert :laugh:



You'reDrunk said:


> we fall under the PM10 guidelines for smog. but NONE of the diesels is tested for NOx emissions.....go figure.


At least they require a four wheel dyno :laugh:



NeverEnoughCars said:


> What about the possible air bag recall?
> You going to also avoid that one?


Any work performed on a vehicle without owner's consent is a no no. However, a shop could probably refuse to do an airbag recall if the emission recall has not been done I suppose, but that seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen.


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

vwwtchr said:


> You won't have a choice. You'll have to get the car serviced or you won't be able to register it.


Uh

NO

Depends on your state

Cali Fo Sho


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

cpermd said:


> Uh
> 
> NO
> 
> ...


Not true.

This is a *federal* issue, not a state one. This is akin to those illegally imported GTRs that were impounded and crushed. Non-compliance cars will not be able to renew their registrations no matter the state.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

DJMRDARK said:


> Not true.
> 
> This is a *federal* issue, not a state one. This is akin to those illegally imported GTRs that were impounded and crushed. Non-compliance cars will not be able to renew their registrations no matter the state.


I guess you missed what I posted before. So here it is again.




> Will I be required to have my vehicle repaired once it is recalled?
> 
> That depends. Some states require proof that emissions recalls have been performed prior to issuing the vehicle registration. Even in states that do not have this requirement, it is important to have emissions recalls performed because without the repairs, your vehicle may be emitting harmful pollutants in excess of the federal emission standards. You are not responsible for repair costs related to an emissions recall.
> 
> http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/violations.htm#repair


----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

DJMRDARK said:


> This is a *federal* issue, not a state one. This is akin to those illegally imported GTRs that were impounded and crushed. Non-compliance cars will not be able to renew their registrations no matter the state.


The federal government does not have enough power to do that. Cars are registered by the state.

Regardless, just like when GM cheated on their software in the 90's, VW will likely be forced to "offset" the polluting vehicles by either purchasing carbon credits (the new hotness these days), or buying other fleet type vehicles to replace older, higher polluting ones. GM had to buy school busses. This is much easier to enforce than a voluntary recall.


----------



## Cole Orlling (Mar 18, 2015)

No chance registrations of personal vehicles will be blocked. Especially not over half a million cars that spit out a little extra NOx, but are still far and away cleaner than the millions and millions of older cars on the road.


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

Turbio! said:


> As many keep *speculating*: it's not really going to be something you can disregard.


FTFY


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

eweu said:


> The federal government does not have enough power to do that. Cars are registered by the state.
> 
> Regardless, just like when GM cheated on their software in the 90's, VW will likely be forced to "offset" the polluting vehicles by either purchasing carbon credits (the new hotness these days), or buying other fleet type vehicles to replace older, higher polluting ones. GM had to buy school busses. This is much easier to enforce than a voluntary recall.


Oh yes it does.

This is an issue that goes beyond the EPA. You're talking about cars that where fraudulently sold in the US by a foreign entity. This also violates trade laws and agreements, and therefore crosses several federal government offices. It's also a criminal matter which involves the FBI. This is not something purely at a state level. The interstate commerce issues alone make it a federal issue.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Cole Orlling said:


> Especially not over half a million cars that spit out a little extra NOx, but are still far and away cleaner than the millions and millions of older cars on the road.


Yeah not really. NOx has been restricted for decades. The NOx emissions (which are among the most harmful of all smog emissions) were measured as being up in the 1 g/mile range. You have to go all the way back to 1981 to find a time period when cars were allowed to pollute at that level. That's 34 years ago. Saying the 2015 TDI is _potentially_ cleaner than cars from before 1981 is not saying much.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

Cole Orlling said:


> No chance registrations of personal vehicles will be blocked. .


Blanket statement has already been proven false.
Many states that have emissions testing already tie it to registration. If you don't get tested, your registration is void.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

E CODE said:


> Yep... I was almost thinking of going to a test center with my car and getting them to test it as is, just to see if it would pass...


It will no problem.. Especially with the OBD test we're using. Another reason why DriveClean is such a crock of ****.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

DJMRDARK said:


> Oh yes it does.
> 
> This is an issue that goes beyond the EPA. You're talking about cars that where fraudulently sold in the US by a foreign entity. This also violates trade laws and agreements, and therefore crosses several federal government offices. It's also a criminal matter which involves the FBI. This is not something purely at a state level. The interstate commerce issues alone make it a federal issue.


i'd have to agree here. states may be able to add on their own requirements, but if the feds put their foot down on what's to be done about cars not having the recall completed, the states are in for a world of **** if they don't enforce it (or at least "attempt" to).


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> Any work performed on a vehicle *without owner's consent is a no no*. However, a shop could probably refuse to do an airbag recall if the emission recall has not been done I suppose, but that seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen.


go and read the VW EULA for the software on the car, I am 100% positive that VW OWNS the software and is licensing the owner to use it. additionally, with Federal requirements I am again 100% positive that VW does NOT need the vehicle owner to approve ANY updates to software (of any type) running in the vehicle ECUs


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

You'reDrunk said:


> go and read the VW EULA for the software on the car, I am 100% positive that VW OWNS the software and is licensing the owner to use it. additionally, with Federal requirements I am again 100% positive that VW does NOT need the vehicle owner to approve ANY updates to software (of any type) running in the vehicle ECUs


especially when you consider that updates don't get charged to the customer. i've never seen/had on that required customers to pay for it. usually it's a factory thing and covered by the parent company because they found something later down the road and went ahead and fixed it.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

cpermd said:


> Uh
> 
> NO
> 
> ...


Wrong. The feds can enforce anything they want. Just tie it to federal funds. You want that highway paid for, fix the tdi's. You want the EPA cleanup funds, fix the tdi's. This will be a no brainer no matter what states rights people tell you.



Hajduk said:


> I guess you missed what I posted before. So here it is again.


All that is is vague wording, subject to change the moment VW announces the actual fix. If you think the EPA will allow gross polluters to stay on the road in violation of the CAA you're mistaken.



eweu said:


> The federal government does not have enough power to do that. Cars are registered by the state.
> 
> Regardless, just like when GM cheated on their software in the 90's, VW will likely be forced to "offset" the polluting vehicles by either purchasing carbon credits (the new hotness these days), or buying other fleet type vehicles to replace older, higher polluting ones. GM had to buy school busses. This is much easier to enforce than a voluntary recall.


Sure they due. Feds hold the purse strings, and at the end of the day that's what counts. All states will comply you can bet on it.






Cole Orlling said:


> No chance registrations of personal vehicles will be blocked. Especially not over half a million cars that spit out a little extra NOx, but are still far and away cleaner than the millions and millions of older cars on the road.


Nah will be super easy to require. Just a vin database cross referenced to the states databases. And they will be checked and enforced.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

You'reDrunk said:


> go and read the VW EULA for the software on the car, I am 100% positive that VW OWNS the software and is licensing the owner to use it. additionally, with Federal requirements I am again 100% positive that VW does NOT need the vehicle owner to approve ANY updates to software (of any type) running in the vehicle ECUs


Is the EULA signed at time of purchase? Does it legally need to be? If so, how's it translate to second hand owners? Everytime you start the car it should force you to verbally say 'accept' after a twenty minute EULA speeech through the speakers :laugh:

Regardless, it doesn't seem the fix state side will simply be a software update.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Surf Green said:


> Many states that have emissions testing already tie it to registration.


What I find humorous is that this debacle only further shows how worthless those emissions testing are.


----------



## yakovshap (Oct 30, 2001)

AZGolf said:


> Yeah not really. NOx has been restricted for decades. The NOx emissions (which are among the most harmful of all smog emissions) were measured as being up in the 1 g/mile range. You have to go all the way back to 1981 to find a time period when cars were allowed to pollute at that level. That's 34 years ago. Saying the 2015 TDI is _potentially_ cleaner than cars from before 1981 is not saying much.


NOx standard was reduced from 1.2 to 0.7 in 2008. 1g/mile range is better than 2008 standard 1.2


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

vwwtchr said:


> All that is is vague wording,


As opposed to your speculated scenario?


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

vwwtchr said:


> All that is is vague wording, subject to change the moment VW announces the actual fix. If you think the EPA will allow gross polluters to stay on the road in violation of the CAA you're mistaken.


The EPA is clearly saying that it's up to the states to make sure an owner does the recall. Why don't you show an ounce of proof to support your speculation?


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

Hajduk said:


> The EPA is clearly saying that *it's up to the states to make sure an owner does the recal*l. Why don't you show an ounce of proof to support your speculation?


It's also up to states to comply with epa pollution guidelines regarding wastewater system treatment, infiltration, and pollution. They can consent or not consent, but not consenting and hitting target goals reduces their ability to get federal funds for projects/maintenance/upgrades.

This is no different. the EPA can mandate that states enforce a recall, subject to the revocation of federal funding. States, in turn, will enforce the recall, likely by tying it to registration as that is the easiest way to get cars off the road or in compliance.


:banghead::banghead:


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

When you look at the sh!tstorm a dozen or so illegal GTRs made and what the result of that was, how can any of you possibly think 500K+ illegal cars are not going to get fixed or removed from circulation?:screwy:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Tornado2dr said:


> States, in turn, will enforce the recall, likely by tying it to registration as that is the easiest way to get cars off the road or in compliance.


They'll have to pass a law if they don't have one on the books mandating emissions testing be tied to registration.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Silly_me said:


> They'll have to pass a law if they don't have one on the books mandating emissions testing be tied to registration.


Emissions testing is tied to registration in a lot of states at the present.


----------



## LindsayLowhan (May 29, 2010)




----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

DJMRDARK said:


> When you look at the sh!tstorm a dozen or so illegal GTRs made and what the result of that was, how can any of you possibly think 500K+ illegal cars are not going to get fixed or removed from circulation?:screwy:


Because nobody cares about a few GT-R owners. But 500,000 suddenly becomes real voters and that matters a lot. Nobody, federal, state, or otherwise is going to take a chance inconveniencing voters personally by forcing them to do something with their car, or worse yet take it away. They will have much better luck making Volkswagen pay in some other way that looks good, and "makes up" for the violation.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

eweu said:


> Because nobody cares about a few GT-R owners. But 500,000 suddenly becomes real voters and that matters a lot. Nobody, federal, state, or otherwise is going to take a chance inconveniencing voters personally by forcing them to do something with their car, or worse yet take it away. They will have much better luck making Volkswagen pay in some other way that looks good, and "makes up" for the violation.


Uhh...you have it backwards pal. If the government went all out to crush a dozen GTRs they will CERTAINLY not allow half a million illegal gross polluters to stay on the road. It is a MUCH larger afront to the law and a MUCH bigger slap in the face of their authority. If anything there is a FAR bigger incentive to make an example of this. This is large enough of an offense to actually become a campaign issue, and not in a way that helps VW, Germany, or TDI owners (most of whom would lay the inconvenience on VW and not the federal government).


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

DJMRDARK said:


> Uhh...you have it backwards pal. If the government went all out to crush a dozen GTRs they will CERTAINLY not allow half a million illegal gross polluters to stay on the road. It is a MUCH larger afront to the law and a MUCH bigger slap in the face of their authority. If anything there is a FAR bigger incentive to make an example of this. This is large enough of an offense to actually become a campaign issue, and not in a way that helps VW, Germany, or TDI owners (most of whom would lay the inconvenience on VW and not the federal government).


Don't forget about the role the DOT/NHTSA played in getting those GTRs crushed.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

DJMRDARK said:


> Uhh...you have it backwards pal. If the government went all out to crush a dozen GTRs they will CERTAINLY not allow half a million illegal gross polluters to stay on the road. It is a MUCH larger afront to the law and a MUCH bigger slap in the face of their authority. If anything there is a FAR bigger incentive to make an example of this. This is large enough of an offense to actually become a campaign issue, and not in a way that helps VW, Germany, or TDI owners (most of whom would lay the inconvenience on VW and not the federal government).


It cuts both ways. 500,000 is a much bigger problem on the road, and it will definitely have to be dealt with. However, I'm sure it was pretty easy to squash a few dozen GTRs as the solution to the GTR problem. Grabbing 500,000 cars would obviously create a much, much bigger stink with owners, and that could cause all sorts of other difficulties for the US authorities.


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> They'll have to pass a law if they don't have one on the books mandating emissions testing be tied to registration.





Rabbit5GTI said:


> Emissions testing is tied to registration in a lot of states at the present.



I would be surprised if there are many states that don't have a clause that requires registered vehicles to be in compliance with "all applicable federal emissions/pollution standards". Since an enforcement like this would be tied to xx% by such and such a date, I don't even find it unreasonable for state legislatures, if needed, to tie a compliance rider in with their next budget session in order to maintain current and future funding levels.

All of this is hypothetical, of course, but if you think that a state is going to risk federal funds on the chance that they make some diesel drivers sad, you're crazy.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

So here is a settlement that was just announced today. Obviously the scope is much smaller, but this is fairly typical of how EPA/DOJ handle these kinds of cases:



US EPA said:


> *Tractor Supply Company Agrees to Implement Company-Wide Compliance Program to Resolve Clean Air Act Violations*
> 
> Release Date: 09/30/2015
> Contact Information: CONTACT: Julia P. Valentine (News media only), [email protected], (202) 564-2663, (202) 564-4355
> ...


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

MXTHOR3 said:


> Don't forget about the role the DOT/NHTSA played in getting those GTRs crushed.


True.

Btw, just read there will be another vector for punishing VW. Thanks to all of those federal and state incentives for green cars they received. It just keeps stacking up and piling on.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Tornado2dr said:


> It's also up to states to comply with epa pollution guidelines regarding wastewater system treatment, infiltration, and pollution. They can consent or not consent, but not consenting and hitting target goals reduces their ability to get federal funds for projects/maintenance/upgrades.
> 
> This is no different. the EPA can mandate that states enforce a recall, subject to the revocation of federal funding. States, in turn, will enforce the recall, likely by tying it to registration as that is the easiest way to get cars off the road or in compliance.
> 
> ...



Are you talking about the same EPA that let a Heavy Truck manufacturer sell non-compliant vehicles in exchange for a financial penalty?


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

DJMRDARK said:


> True.
> 
> Btw, just read there will be another vector for punishing VW. Thanks to all of those federal and state incentives for green cars they received. It just keeps stacking up and piling on.


Yeah, the dimensions to this are pretty vast. I don't think it's going to blow over in any way that's easy for VW.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

btitus said:


> It cuts both ways. 500,000 is a much bigger problem on the road, and it will definitely have to be dealt with. However, I'm sure it was pretty easy to squash a few dozen GTRs as the solution to the GTR problem. Grabbing 500,000 cars would obviously create a much, much bigger stink with owners, and that could cause all sorts of other difficulties for the US authorities.


They will not grab all 500K cars. VW will fix or buy back most of them. The stragglers who will refuse to let the cars get fixed or surrender them for buy back will find they cannot register them and drive them legally. That's how they will be removed from the roads. As they are driven illegally on the roads and discovered by traffic stops, they'll get impounded and then likely crushed.


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

Hajduk said:


> Are you talking about the same EPA that let a Heavy Truck manufacturer sell non-compliant vehicles in exchange for a financial penalty?


Yes, since one has nothing to do with the other.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Tornado2dr said:


> Yes, since one has nothing to do with the other.


In both cases the EPA did not take technically illegal vehicles off the road


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

Hajduk said:


> In both cases the EPA did not take technically illegal vehicles off the road


If you are talking about the Mack/Navistar issue, the MFR did not seek to defraud the fedgov, iirc., and instead sought a way to reach compliance by buying more credits, rather than tricking a test.


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

I wonder now if this is still on the table for VWofA:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150112/RETAIL07/150119934?template=mobile&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Tornado2dr said:


> I would be surprised if there are many states that don't have a clause that requires registered vehicles to be in compliance with "all applicable federal emissions/pollution standards". Since an enforcement like this would be tied to xx% by such and such a date, I don't even find it unreasonable for state legislatures, if needed, to tie a compliance rider in with their next budget session in order to maintain current and future funding levels.


Nothing that would directly allow them to withhold registration without amending the laws. Besides, round these here parts election season is heatun up and I'm just a bit further than an EV car's charge to the land of coal mines and hill folk and the EPA is already a dirty word on these airwaves.




DJMRDARK said:


> The stragglers who will refuse to let the cars get fixed or surrender them for buy back will find they cannot register them and drive them legally.


How is this going to be legally done in any state that does not already have such laws?


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Tornado2dr said:


> If you are talking about the Mack/Navistar issue, the MFR did not seek to defraud the fedgov, iirc., and instead sought a way to reach compliance by buying more credits, rather than tricking a test.


The reasons for those vehicles being "illegal" doesn't matter. The point is they got on the road and the EPA did nothing to remove them. They chose a financial penalty over air quality. Also, forcing owners to have their vehicles recalled is not punishing VW.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

yakovshap said:


> NOx standard was reduced from 1.2 to 0.7 in 2008. 1g/mile range is better than 2008 standard 1.2


Well I was looking at the gasoline standards, since gasoline cars made up 98% of cars sold in the last 30 years anyway. I'm also being generous by saying 1 g/mile. The actual letter from the EPA to VW said 10 to 40 times the allowable limit. That actually gives you a range of 0.7 to 2.8 g/mile. I gave a figure of 1.0 g/mile to be kind to VW and illustrate how far back - at least for gasoline cars - you have to go to find such lax standards.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> How is this going to be legally done in any state that does not already have such laws?


Car that don't get fixed or bought back will likely have their federal certification revoked, since the fraud allowed their certification in the first place. Once that is done it does not matter what the state laws are. Federal trumps state. Cars that have been revoked will be impounded as discovered. Done and done.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

btitus said:


> Yeah, the dimensions to this are pretty vast. I don't think it's going to blow over in any way that's easy for VW.


yeah, it's pretty much which way will hurt less at this point.


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

Hajduk said:


> The reasons for those vehicles being "illegal" doesn't matter. * The point is they got on the road and the EPA did nothing to remove them*. They chose a financial penalty over air quality. Also, forcing owners to have their vehicles recalled is not punishing VW.


Actually, EPA specifically ALLOWED them to purchase more credits with the "fine" so they were NEVER illegal, to my understanding.

The reasons most certainly do matter.

And forcing owners to preform a recall at VWs expense DEFINTELY hurt's VW now, and in the future. The right now hard costs are easy to figure - the long term costs are not.


----------



## BetterByDesign (Sep 7, 2004)

Some much needed perspective:

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...21/vw-alone-evading-emissions-rules/72599274/

*VW not alone in evading emissions rules*

Washington — When Volkswagen AG admitted last week it used sophisticated software to evade emissions rules for 482,000 diesel cars, it joined a long history of vehicle manufacturers that have tried evading rules regulating air pollution.

Over the last year the Environmental Protection Agency has reached 14 settlements or won court orders against manufacturers for not complying with the rules. A number of those cases involved Chinese-made all-terrain vehicles and motorcycles. And Honda Motor Co. and Kia Motors Inc. have agreed to small settlements in recent years.

But the biggest cases to date involved General Motors — and in another case, seven manufacturers of heavy-duty diesel engines. Both cases came to light two decades ago.

In 1995, the EPA and Justice Department slapped GM with an $11 million fine for installing “defeat devices” on 470,000 1991-95 Cadillac Sevilles and Devilles that overrode pollution controls. That resulted in carbon monoxide emissions of up to three times the legal limit.

At the time, it was the largest ever case brought under the Clean Air Act and it was the first judicial auto recall aimed at curbing damage to the environment. In total, GM agreed to spend $45 million to settle government charges that it put illegal devices in the Cadillacs: Besides the $11 million fine, it spent more than $25 million to recall and retrofit the polluting vehicles; it spent another $8.75 million on projects to offset emissions from the cars.

The problem started in 1991, when GM designed a new engine control computer chip to respond to complaints of stalling and other problems in Cadillacs equipped with 4.9-liter engines.

“The device nearly tripled the output of carbon monoxide when the car’s climate control system is on — for heating or cooling,” the Justice Department said in 1995. “The instructions on the computer chip enriched the fuel (increased the amount of fuel relative to air), which overrode the emission control system and resulted in multiplying the carbon monoxide emissions. For the 1993-1995 model years, GM again failed to disclose the use of the device or its adverse emissions effect.”

The defeat devices in the Cadillacs resulted in the illegal release of about 100,000 tons of excess carbon monoxide pollution, the government said.

Then-EPA Administrator Carol Browner noted that the GM vehicles “caused enough additional air pollution to blanket a major U.S. city, such as Washington, D.C., with a 10-foot layer of carbon monoxide.”

Janet Reno, who was attorney general then, said, “Carbon monoxide can cause cardiopulmonary problems and can lead to headaches, impaired vision and a reduced ability to work and learn. These so-called defeat devices are not just paper violations, but result in real increases in emissions that affect real people.”

The Detroit automaker was required to buy back older vehicles. And to offset the damage to the environment, it purchased new school buses that burned cleaner fuels. Like GM, VW is almost certain to be required to take steps to offset the added pollution.

It wasn’t until June 2005 that a federal judge ended the consent decree overseeing GM’s conduct.

A spokesman for the company declined to comment Monday, but noted that GM’s current diesel vehicles use robust emission-control systems to remove pollution.

The case involving seven leading manufacturers of heavy-duty diesel engines was one of the biggest environmental enforcement actions in history. In 1998, EPA reached a $1 billion settlement with the manufacturers; that included $83.4 million in fines.

The EPA said the firms sold engines equipped with devices designed to defeat federal anti-pollution controls.

“These illegal devices allow engines to pass EPA’s emissions tests in the lab, but turn off pollution control equipment under normal driving conditions — and all to cut a few corners on costs,” EPA Administrator Carol Browner said at the time.

The EPA said that more than 1 million trucks were on the road with these illegal devices. They were emitting an additional 1.3 million tons of nitrogen oxides, equal to 65 million cars.

Recent EPA settlements have been much smaller:

■In 2012, Suzuki Motor Corp. agreed to pay $885,000 for importing and selling 25,458 uncertified all-terrain vehicles and off-road motorcycles in the United States between 2006 and 2010.

Suzuki agreed to three projects to reduce hydrocarbon emissions by at least 210 tons: It provided portable gas cans that complied with current EPA regulations on the amount of vapors that can escape. It agreed to discontinue its sale in the U.S. of fuel lines that could leak gas fumes. Suzuki also told owners that if they modified their motorcycles or ATVs in ways that boost emissions, they could lose warranty coverage.

■Kia Motors Inc. and Hyundai Motor Co. — both controlled by the same Korean conglomerate — in 2011 each agreed to pay $210,000 for failing to do confirmation emissions testing on vehicles between 2001-11. As part of the settlement, both were required to provide documentation to the EPA of completing 2013-2014 model tests.

In 2013, Honda paid a $580,00 fine to EPA for importing 437,000 off-road engines from 2003 through 2008 that weren’t equipped with the air intake box and/or muffler present on test engines. The company entered into a consent decree.

■An Illinois Chrysler dealer was fined $5,000 in 2013 for importing 11 1997 Jeep Cherokee SUVs that didn’t meet emissions requirements.

■In November, the EPA won a $1.3 million judgment against Chinese motorcycle and RV manufacturer Jonway USA with violations of the Clean Air Act covering about 10,000 vehicles. Motorcycles were listed as having carburetor with a nonadjustable idle air-fuel mixture screw, but in fact had idle air-fuel mixture screws that could allow for higher emissions.

■Also that month, Chinese company Dongfang Motor Inc. paid a $6,900 penalty for importing 52 go-karts that had never been approved to meet U.S. emissions rules; it was required to export them outside North America under the settlement.

But the VW case has the potential to dwarf all of those settlements: The EPA says the automaker in theory could face up to $18 billion in penalties.

[email protected]


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

DJMRDARK said:


> will likely have their federal certification revoked


This won't happen. We are not talking about illegally imported cars.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Some more defeat device stories.



> n 1996 Honda reached an agreement with the EPA to extend the warranties and offer free services for 1.6 million 1995 Civics and 1996-1997 model year Acuras, Accords, Civics, Preludes, and Odysseys, because Honda had disabled an engine misfire warning light that would have otherwise directed drivers to seek repairs for the misfires. Honda was required to spend a total of $267 million on the warranties, service, pollution reduction projects, and $12.6 million in civil penalties.[9]
> 
> Also in 1996, Ford reached a consent decree to spend $7.9 million to address a defeat device on 60,000 1997 model year Econoline vans which used a "sophisticated electronic control strategy designed to enhance fuel economy", disabling NOx emissions controls while the vans were driven at highway speeds, a circumstance not occurring during lab testing to verify emissions control compliance.[9]
> 
> In 1998 the EPA announced fines totaling $83.4 million against seven heavy truck manufacturers, the largest fine to date, which evaded testing by shutting down emissions controls during highway driving while appearing to be in compliance during lab testing.[10] The seven, Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, Mack Trucks, Navistar International, Renault Trucks, and Volvo Trucks, also agreed to spend more than $1 billion to correct the problem.[11] The trucks used engine ECU software to engage pollution controls during the 20-minute lab tests to verify compliance with the Clean Air Act, but then disable the emissions controls during normal highway cruising, emitting up to three times the maximum allowed NOx pollution.[11]


I'm sure the EPA forced all the owners of these vehicles to have the recall done.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

some of the **** TCL manages to dig up is 90% better than the crap dug up by people who get paid to do this kind of thing. y'all need to become reporters. i'd watch the news again if they were half as reliable and accurate as some of the people here.


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

Friend spotted this on the highway not far from Volkswagen's emissions test lab here in SoCal today and shared it on FB.










One of the comments left on his status was kind of funny:

"That appears to be the fix for the emission recall. I'm hoping they offer it in body color..." :laugh:

>8^)
ER


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Silly_me said:


> This won't happen. We are not talking about illegally imported cars.


Arent we? The cars (except the Passat's) were made in Mexico and Germany right? So they techincally were imported by VW right?

Being Canadain I have no authority to speak on the subject... just a thought I was having....


----------



## nemesis099 (Mar 16, 2002)

My only question is when will we see large price drops on new Diesel vehicles from VW and Audi. I would love to pick up a Q7 TDI with a substantial discount as they try to get rid of them!!!


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Hajduk said:


> I'm sure the EPA forced all the owners of these vehicles to have the recall done.


I'm sure most owners had the recall done anyways.

I can see VW dealerships refusing services or honoring warranty work for owners who refuse any emissions fix.


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

Peloton25 said:


> Friend spotted this on the highway not far from Volkswagen's emissions test lab here in SoCal today and shared it on FB.
> 
> One of the comments left on his status was kind of funny:
> 
> ...


:laugh:


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

2.0T_Convert said:


> I'm sure most owners had the recall done anyways.


I'm sure most VW owners will as well.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

nemesis099 said:


> My only question is when will we see large price drops on new Diesel vehicles from VW and Audi. I would love to pick up a Q7 TDI with a substantial discount as they try to get rid of them!!!


A Q7 doesn't have a 2.0 TDI engine and isn't subject to a recall. Aside from trying to boost sales, why would they have a substantial discount?


----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

Hajduk said:


> The reasons for those vehicles being "illegal" doesn't matter. The point is they got on the road and the EPA did nothing to remove them. They chose a financial penalty over air quality. Also, forcing owners to have their vehicles recalled is not punishing VW.


Exactly. No politician is going to risk ticking off voters. Nobody will have their registration denied. There will be (televised!) hearings, large fines, press releases, web sites, and large contributions to "green" programs by Volkswagen. Then we'll move on to the next crisis.


----------



## nemesis099 (Mar 16, 2002)

spockcat said:


> A Q7 doesn't have a 2.0 TDI engine and isn't subject to a recall. Aside from trying to boost sales, why would they have a substantial discount?


I know it doesn't have the 2.0 TDI but I figure most people will stop purchasing diesel engines afraid they won't meet the EPA requirements allowing me to pick one up at a discount.

Heck I know people that are upset because they think the regular gas vehicles are part of the recall. I never underestimate how uninformed people can be!


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Peloton25 said:


> Friend spotted this on the highway not far from Volkswagen's emissions test lab here in SoCal today and shared it on FB.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They'll also be adding this to the hood for the additional software processing.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Peloton25 said:


> Friend spotted this on the highway not far from Volkswagen's emissions test lab here in SoCal today and shared it on FB.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hilarity aside, if this is correct, that means VW has implemented a possible fix for Golf models and is testing it in real world conditions to ensure it complies with EPA regulations. it's obviously gonna require more fine tuning, but i didn't expect them to have a working application so fast.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

eweu said:


> Exactly. No politician is going to risk ticking off voters. *Nobody will have their registration denied. *There will be (televised!) hearings, large fines, press releases, web sites, and large contributions to "green" programs by Volkswagen. Then we'll move on to the next crisis.


You live in California. The state is on record saying they will deny registration to non-fixed cars. :screwy:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> They'll also be adding this to the hood for the additional software processing.


these will be fitted to the Jetta models in lieu of Urea tanks.


----------



## VadGTI (Feb 24, 2000)

Peloton25 said:


> Friend spotted this on the highway not far from Volkswagen's emissions test lab here in SoCal today and shared it on FB.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This deserves its own thread. Some of the post material it leads to could be gold!


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Peloton25 said:


> Friend spotted this on the highway not far from Volkswagen's emissions test lab here in SoCal today and shared it on FB.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's going to be real inconvenient in the winter!


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

Tornado2dr said:


> The issue is, will this eventual recall be mandated in such a way so that your car MUST be recalled by such and such a date, and if the fix isn't implemented by that date, your car is no longer able to be registered/operated legally on the roads? Will you have to show proof of this recall at time of registration/ownership transfer?


The states could, in theory, check the VIN whose registration is to be renewed against the list of VINs that have had the recall work done.



Tornado2dr said:


> I feel like some of you saying "well, I just won't do the recall if it degrades performance" are really ignoring some serious possibilities, here.


Also, those who want to avoid the recall by avoiding taking their cars to a VW dealer can no longer get warranty service for anything.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

E CODE said:


> Arent we? The cars (except the Passat's) were made in Mexico and Germany right? So they techincally were imported by VW right?


They were all EPA certified at the time they were imported :laugh:



DJMRDARK said:


> You live in California. The state is on record saying they will deny registration to non-fixed cars. :screwy:


My only issue with this whole Dieselgate thing is that NOx is doing feck all to melt the icecaps and ridding the world of California


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

GoHomeBroke said:


> hilarity aside, if this is correct, that means VW has implemented a possible fix for Golf models and is testing it in real world conditions to ensure it complies with EPA regulations. it's obviously gonna require more fine tuning, but i didn't expect them to have a working application so fast.


"And we're gonna throw in this Hitch, for FREE!"

The principles used right now to clean diesel exhaust are pretty well understood. It makes me wonder, though, where in the world you figure they can retro-fit/package any added devices. Carmakers already use every square inch of available space for various systems and servicing.


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

eweu said:


> Exactly. No politician is going to risk ticking off voters. Nobody will have their registration denied. There will be (televised!) hearings, large fines, press releases, web sites, and large contributions to "green" programs by Volkswagen. Then we'll move on to the next crisis.


EPA officials are appointed, not elected. I think some people are drastically under-estimating their reach.

Blocked registrations are entirely possible and will be probable in any market that already does emissions testing, either through a basic OBD port scan or via a full rollers test.

>8^)
ER


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

Tornado2dr said:


> It's also up to states to comply with epa pollution guidelines regarding wastewater system treatment, infiltration, and pollution. They can consent or not consent, but not consenting and hitting target goals reduces their ability to get federal funds for projects/maintenance/upgrades.
> 
> This is no different. the EPA can mandate that states enforce a recall, subject to the revocation of federal funding. States, in turn, will enforce the recall, likely by tying it to registration as that is the easiest way to get cars off the road or in compliance.
> 
> ...


This!!

Why are people trying to pretend the federal government isn't 

1. very concerned that these cars become legal.
2. isn't easily able to "motivate" non-carb states to get on board.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Because most people don't know how the government works or why certain things are in place. They react to irrational fears and rely on "truthiness".:laugh:

As such they jump to hate the EPA even though that's the only way they can enjoy clean air and water in an age to corporate dominance and greed.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

Silly_me said:


> Nothing that would directly allow them to withhold registration without amending the laws. Besides, round these here parts election season is heatun up and I'm just a bit further than an EV car's charge to the land of coal mines and hill folk and the EPA is already a dirty word on these airwaves.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice and easy. You try and register your car and get a notice from your DMV stating that their is a recall on your car that is outstanding that needs to be performed at your dealer (at no cost) prior to them issuing your next year's sticker.

You can bitch all you want but this is exactly how it's going to go down. All the Tdiclub people who have eliminated all of their emissions parts and who swear they won't get this done are delusional, and will be grumbling in 9 months how this is bs totalitarian policies.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

I have a question. Everyone keeps saying they pass while in test mode, just set them to test mode all the time. Does it really pass in test mode, or is the computer just saying "it's all good"?


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

thegoose said:


> I have a question. Everyone keeps saying they pass while in test mode, just set them to test mode all the time. Does it really pass in test mode, or is the computer just saying "it's all good"?


As I understand it if they run the cars like that all of the time owners will see reduced performance, driveability, and mileage. Also several parts in the emission system will fail prematurely thereby violating the legal requirements for the life of said systems.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

vwwtchr said:


> Why are people trying to pretend the federal government isn't
> 
> 1. very concerned that these cars become legal.


It is half a million cars. Ford sells nearly twice that many pickup trucks in one year. In the green scheme of things this isn't that big of a deal. VW will pay out the nose for the deceit, but owners in states that don't tie emissions to registrations won't be impacted should they choose not to have the fix done.



vwwtchr said:


> Why are people trying to pretend the federal government isn't
> 
> 2. isn't easily able to "motivate" non-carb states to get on board.


Probably because they never motivated those states to join CARB regulations in the first place.



vwwtchr said:


> Nice and easy. You try and register your car and get a notice from your DMV stating that their is a recall on your car that is outstanding that needs to be performed at your dealer (at no cost) prior to them issuing your next year's sticker.


Where is the legal precedence for the DMV to exact that sort of power in states that do not require emissions testing in order to register their vehicle?



vwwtchr said:


> You can bitch all you want but this is exactly how it's going to go down.


All that vague EPA wording says you are wrong.


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

Maybe VW can solve it all through marketing, starting by borrowing this Honda commercial.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Tornado2dr said:


> "And we're gonna throw in this Hitch, for FREE!"
> 
> The principles used right now to clean diesel exhaust are pretty well understood. It makes me wonder, though, where in the world you figure they can retro-fit/package any added devices. Carmakers already use every square inch of available space for various systems and servicing.


i'd buy that for a dollar!

honestly, (there's no right way to word this) if you want to shove some things in places where you'd never expect them to fit, employ submarine engineers/former submariners. just when you think you're out of space, they'll show you where it is.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> i'd buy that for a dollar!
> 
> honestly, (there's no right way to word this) if you want to shove some things in places where you'd never expect them to fit, employ submarine engineers/former submariners. just when you think you're out of space, they'll show you where it is.


There is just so much in your post to launch into Navy seamen and submariner jokes...:laugh: But I'll refrain. Carry on.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> It is half a million cars. Ford sells nearly twice that many pickup trucks in one year. In the green scheme of things this isn't that big of a deal. VW will pay out the nose for the deceit, but owners in states that don't tie emissions to registrations won't be impacted should they choose not to have the fix done.


Unless there is pressure on VW to have all recalled performed and VW dealerships refuse service/warranty work on TDI owners.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

DJMRDARK said:


> There is just so much in your post to launch into Navy seamen and submariner jokes...:laugh: But I'll refrain. Carry on.


yeah. i've heard a metric ass ton of 'em, too. one of the guys in my division was a veritable Tetris master. he could stow anything anywhere. so he decides he's going to proclaim his skill. how? "Man, I'm an excellent crap packer." five seconds later.... "Wait... that sounds wrong." :laugh:


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> yeah. i've heard a metric ass ton of 'em, too. one of the guys in my division was a veritable Tetris master. he could stow anything anywhere. so he decides he's going to proclaim his skill. how? "Man, I'm an excellent crap packer." five seconds later.... "Wait... that sounds wrong." :laugh:


Lol. Regardless of the jokes I have mad respect for submariners. And yes - I have no doubt they could teach VW a clinic on packing in the retro fit gear.:thumbup:


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

Silly_me said:


> It is half a million cars. Ford sells nearly twice that many pickup trucks in one year. In the green scheme of things this isn't that big of a deal. VW will pay out the nose for the deceit, but owners in states that don't tie emissions to registrations won't be impacted should they choose not to have the fix done.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've explained this to you in clear detail exactly how the feds can use the CAA and the threat of withholding funds to "encourage" states that don't emission test to ensure this recall is enacted.

Also if you think using the argument that states can't prohibit cars that are out of compliance with federal regulations from registering is sound you're delusional. Feds>States>YOU. That clear enough?

Now since you appear to just be trolling with your repeated arguments that are repeatedly refuted, we'll just end our interactions here.


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)




----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

I find it ironic now that Skoda was a major sponsor to the US Postal cycling team.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Postal_Service_Pro_Cycling_Team


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Hawk said:


> this Honda commercial


Garrison Keillor, where _face for radio_ originated :laugh:



2.0T_Convert said:


> Unless there is pressure on VW to have all recalled performed and VW dealerships refuse service/warranty work on TDI owners.


I've never known a car company to try and find reasons why a warranty is voided  A lot of these cars are out of warranty.



vwwtchr said:


> Feds>States>YOU.


EPA is Feds no? It appears they've left it up to the states. Regardless of what they can do.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Is retrofitting 11 million diesel engines the most efficient way to decrease overall air pollution?

It may be that a lot more air pollution can be decreased by spending the same amount of money doing other things. Say, by fixing a couple dozen cargo ships, which apparently are unbelievably bad air polluters.

Might make sense to leave the TDIs as they are, but force VW to buy better emissions controls for a number of coal-fed power plants.


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

^^^ This. :thumbup:


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Chilcoot said:


> Is retrofitting 11 million diesel engines the most efficient way to decrease overall air pollution?
> 
> It may be that a lot more air pollution can be decreased by spending the same amount of money doing other things. Say, by fixing a couple dozen cargo ships, which apparently are unbelievably bad air polluters.
> 
> Might make sense to leave the TDIs as they are, but force VW to buy better emissions controls for a number of coal-fed power plants.


You miss the point. They have a legal obligation to make it right with all governments and municipalities affected, as well as their customers. All of whom are victims of VW's fraud. Pollution is just one part of it.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

DJMRDARK said:


> You miss the point. They have a legal obligation to make it right with all governments and municipalities affected, as well as their customers. All of whom are victims of VW's fraud. Pollution is just one part of it.


I think I get the point.

Yes, VW is legally obligated to comply with the Clean Air Act, no question.

But now that they've violated it so grossly, it may be wise for the various governments to excuse VW from having to fix the cars so that they comply with the Act, if they can instead get VW to do something far more beneficial to the overall environment, like fixing cargo ship engines or coal-fired power plants or cow farting or something else.

It may be indefensibly inefficient for VW to spend billions fixing cars when far greater benefits could be realized by getting VW to agree to spend the same money to fix some other air pollution source that's more of a menace to the environment.

If $1 billion is to be spent, let's try and spend it on the project that'll provide the greatest benefit.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Chilcoot said:


> I think I get the point.
> 
> Yes, VW is legally obligated to comply with the Clean Air Act, no question.
> 
> ...


stop using logic.....that would make too much sense.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

GoHomeBroke said:


> hilarity aside, if this is correct, that means VW has implemented a possible fix for Golf models and is testing it in real world conditions to ensure it complies with EPA regulations. it's obviously gonna require more fine tuning, but i didn't expect them to have a working application so fast.


I'm sure that's testing 2016's so they can be sold.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

eweu said:


> Exactly. No politician is going to risk ticking off voters. Nobody will have their registration denied. There will be (televised!) hearings, large fines, press releases, web sites, and large contributions to "green" programs by Volkswagen. Then we'll move on to the next crisis.


EPA requires the owner to get his car fixed. Owner gets upset and doesn't reelect his current Senator? Also realize there are 500k cars affected, most owners would voluntarily get the recall done then the ones that are left are a tiny percentage of the U.S. population.



Chilcoot said:


> I think I get the point.
> 
> Yes, VW is legally obligated to comply with the Clean Air Act, no question.
> 
> ...


Because our system works far better when you create a giant problem like defrauding the EPA and selling non compliant car you need to fix the problem not plant a bunch of trees and say you are even. You dump a ton of chemicals behind the plant you own and while it is possible doing something completely unrelated is a better way to spend the money people expect you to clean up your mess.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Chilcoot said:


> I think I get the point.
> 
> Yes, VW is legally obligated to comply with the Clean Air Act, no question.
> 
> ...


This is akin to saying VW killed a man in cold blood. But rather than prosecute them and hold them to the letter of the law, let's just have them be a big brother to someone instead in order to make it up to society. This way instead of spending their time behind bars they can spend it enriching someone's life.:screwy:

Sorry it does not work that way.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Chilcoot said:


> Is retrofitting 11 million diesel engines the most efficient way to decrease overall air pollution?


Alternatively, the government could just confiscate and crush every single was never legal to sell in the US VW TDi.
Their punishment is about breaking the law, nor about figuring how that money could be spent to help the environment instead of being used to make several hundred thousand vehicles legal again.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

I wanted to update an incorrect statement I made earlier where I said that NOx limits are 0.07 g/mi in the US and 0.18 g/mi under Euro5. It's even worse in Europe because I realized the chart I was looking at was not normalized to units. The Euro5 limit for diesel is 0.18 g/km, which means it is about 0.29 g/mi, or more than 4X the US limit.

Even Euro6, which is 0.08 g/km still works out to about 0.13 g/mi, or nearly double the limit for US cars under T2B5 limits. This further explains why it will be so much easier for VW to retrofit the European cars, since their NOx limit is over 4 times as high as the US NOx limit.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

71DubBugBug said:


> then what happens to all those with DPF deletes and tunes?


I already covered that; you either sell it to someone who lives in a state with no emissions test,
or you're gonna PAY through the nose to have it all reversed. Plus, take a chance on being
turned in to the FEDs and face a federal penalty. They will have to document the entire procedure,
car by car for compliance, and when the FED sees they replaced the entire exhaust system to 
include a DPF. and other items because they were missing? Well, guess what else is coming your
way; a federal fine to you.

Plus, who ever wants to buy it will have you over a barrel. You're gonna take a loss, DOUBLE
the amount it will cost you to have it reversed, so you don't face a federal fine AND the
cost of replacing it all, unless you find a sucker, and they're out there...



jnm2.0t said:


> It sounds like the fix in the US will be urea. That shouldn't compromise any performance and I have to believe free urea for life on those cars. But it won't be cheap to VW to apply the fix.


These systems are not compliant either, and the fix may be doubling the dose of UREA
into the system, from 10k refills to 5K refills in existing cars with the system. Then,
retrofitting ones without was said to be about about 3700 per car. There is an article
about this fix on Yahoo news. Not all of them can be fitted, because there will be no room. 



vwwtchr said:


> You won't have a choice. You'll have to get the car serviced or you won't be able to register it.


That's for sure, for CA and NY, and maybe other states with emissions tests for diesels,
that actually require the emissions certification before registration. This will not be
true in every state or commonwealth.

Then again? We must all wait. People throwing around theory, when no one actually
knows what's going to happen. I live in PA, there are no emissions for diesels, and
some counties where there are no emissions for Gas cars either. So, we'll just
wait and see...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

PowerslavePA said:


> That's for sure, for CA and NY, and maybe other states


I couldn't remember which states were affected. A quick search says:



Wikipedia said:


> States adopting the California standards include Arizona (2012 model year),[1] Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico (2011 model year), New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington, as well as the District of Columbia.[2][3] Such states are frequently referred to as "CARB states" in automotive discussions because the regulations are defined by the California Air Resources Board.


So that's 14 states plus DC in total, including California itself. I compared against a list of population per state and found that those 15 places represent 120 million Americans, which is about 37% of the total population. Not every state does inspections, but an inspection does not preclude withholding registration based on a VIN cross-check. We'll see how it plays out in reality in the coming months.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

dmorrow said:


> Because our system works far better when you create a giant problem like defrauding the EPA and selling non compliant car you need to fix the problem not plant a bunch of trees and say you are even. You dump a ton of chemicals behind the plant you own and while it is possible doing something completely unrelated is a better way to spend the money people expect you to clean up your mess.


The whole point of the Clean Air Act is to clean the air we all need. The law's overall goal isn't to make sure every car has a clean tailpipe, it's bigger than that. The law is meant to encourage activities that result in better environmental conditions, and deter those that don't.

This VW problem is interesting because the pollution isn't localized in the same way your typical Superfund Site is, and because fixing 11 million little engines is probably a really inefficient, labor-intensive and customer-angering way to spend money to clean the air.

If money is to be spent, we should spend it in the way that does the most good. On balance, I bet it'd be a lot more efficient to leave these engines be, and spend VW's money to clean some other, bigger air pollution source.



DJMRDARK said:


> This is akin to saying VW killed a man in cold blood. But rather than prosecute them and hold them to the letter of the law, let's just have them be a big brother to someone instead in order to make it up to society.


Bad analogy. Horrible, actually, to those of us who don't think human reanimation is feasible, and who know that murderers tend to be poor role models. Be serious.

VW polluted the air. So what's the best way to make VW clean the air? That's the question that should be answered.

I say it's not to make them retrofit 11 million little diesel engines. I say it is to make them spend an equivalent amount of money on projects that'll do far more to clean the air.

**EDIT TO ADD**

Catching up, I see my concept was already raised yesterday: I agree with classicjetta.



classicjetta said:


> So there is an alternative to mandating owners complete the recall. US EPA has had various NOx trading programs over the years through NBP, CAIR, and now CSAPR. If VW were willing to buy offsets for the amount of emissions expected from TDIs, then I see no reason to force vehicle owners to get the fix done in non-CARB states.
> 
> http://www3.epa.gov/airtransport/CSAPR/index.html


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Chilcoot said:


> Bad analogy. Horrible, actually, to those of us who don't think human reanimation is feasible, and who know that murderers tend to be poor role models. Be serious.
> 
> VW polluted the air. So what's the best way to make VW clean the air? That's the question that should be answered.
> 
> I say it's not to make them retrofit 11 million little diesel engines. I say it is to make them spend an equivalent amount of money on projects that'll do far more to clean the air.


This response shows you do not really understand the issue. Pollution is secondary. The PRIMARY offenses are fraud, conspiracy, and conspiracy to commit fraud. THAT is the criminal violation the government is upset about. That coupled with the interstate commerce violation and international trade violations. THEN comes the pollution issues. 

You would like to have VW make it right by doing a bunch of namby pamby feel good nonsense that would make for great PR. But that would do absolutely nothing to address the CRIMINALITY of their deeds. True crimes have been committed here and its time for some of to acknowledge that. Do you know what fraud is? Conspiracy? All of this puts them in the crosshairs of the FBI and DOJ. This is not merely EPA.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

DJMRDARK said:


> The PRIMARY offenses are fraud, conspiracy, and conspiracy to commit fraud. THAT is the criminal violation the government is upset about. That coupled with the interstate commerce violation and international trade violations. THEN comes the pollution issues.


Don't forget the other crimes they committed:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

DJMRDARK said:


> The PRIMARY offenses are fraud, conspiracy, and conspiracy to commit fraud.


Unfortunately the business world seems to work something like this:

Somebody robs a bank.
Their accomplice launders the cash.
They get 3 friends to give them false alibis.

When the investigators finally prove with incontrovertible evidence that they did in fact rob the bank and get several people to lie about it, the thieves say "Oh yeah, you're right. Here's the money back." When you take it down to this level, it makes it clear how absurd it is to accept simply giving the stolen money back.

The issue VW is in is similar in that we have been giving a free pass on criminal prosecution against individuals working at companies for a long time. That needs to stop. People need to go to jail. "The company" doesn't make the decision, individual managers and executives make the decision. While the company might just pay a fine, those individuals who broke the law need to go to jail or this will keep happening over and over again.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

DJMRDARK said:


> This response shows you do not really understand the issue. Pollution is secondary. The PRIMARY offenses are fraud, conspiracy, and conspiracy to commit fraud. THAT is the criminal violation the government is upset about. That coupled with the interstate commerce violation and international trade violations. THEN comes the pollution issues.


The ONLY issue I'm discussing is the pollution issue. I recognize their are others to discuss, I just don't feel compelled to address them all in a single post.

The EPA angle to this is premised on the Clean Air Act. The agency doesn't regulate, say, consumer fraud.

Different issues, ones I'm not addressing at the moment.

I'm looking at the violations of the Clean Air Act and saying it would probably be wisest for the EPA to order VW to alleviate pollution not by retrofitting cars, but by spending as much if not more alleviating worse pollution from other sources than these diesel engines.

If you want to argue other topics, be my guest, I'm sure you'll find someone here who'll dance with you.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Chilcoot said:


> The ONLY issue I'm discussing is the pollution issue. I recognize their are others to discuss, I just don't feel compelled to address them all in a single post.
> 
> The EPA angle to this is premised on the Clean Air Act. The agency doesn't regulate, say, consumer fraud.
> 
> ...


Even if you want to limit the discussion to just that violation, the EPA has a legal obligation to have those cars brought into compliance or removed. That's it. No supplementary action on the part of VW would address THAT. This is why your suggestion is a nonstarter.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Chilcoot said:


> Is retrofitting 11 million diesel engines the most efficient way to decrease overall air pollution?
> 
> It may be that a lot more air pollution can be decreased by spending the same amount of money doing other things. Say, by fixing a couple dozen cargo ships, which apparently are unbelievably bad air polluters.
> 
> Might make sense to leave the TDIs as they are, but force VW to buy better emissions controls for a number of coal-fed power plants.


Will you shut it about this dead horse?

Cargo ships registered in other countries are more difficult to regulate unless we plan on banning them for ports then magically find another way to bring in cargo containers. 

Newer generations of ships are much "cleaner" but since these beasts have service life spanning decades replacing them all overnight is virtually impossible.


----------



## firstorbit84 (Feb 25, 2006)

DJMRDARK said:


> Even if you want to limit the discussion to just that violation, the EPA has a legal obligation to have those cars brought into compliance or removed. That's it. No supplementary action on the part of VW would address THAT. This is why your suggestion is a nonstarter.


He's suggesting that VW be required to mitigate for their infractions by purchasing carbon credits or performing other cleanup elsewhere. That will also likely happen as part of the settlement, in addition to rectifying the current vehicles and fines.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Will you shut it about this dead horse?
> 
> Cargo ships registered in other countries are more difficult to regulate unless we plan on banning them for ports then magically find another way to bring in cargo containers.
> 
> Newer generations of ships are much "cleaner" but since these beasts have service life spanning decades replacing them all overnight is virtually impossible.


Holy crap, make stuff up much? I never suggested any of this.

Nothing about banning cargo ships, nothing about replacing all cargo ships, none of that.

I simply suggested that we may be able to get far greater pollution mitigation by redirecting the money we're about to force VW's to pay to fix their diesel engines towards fixing other, more significant pollution sources. Say, by upgrading some cargo ship engines or coal-fed power plants with cleaner tech.

The internet would be a lot tidier place if more posters took a moment to comprehend.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

DJMRDARK said:


> the EPA has a legal obligation to have those cars brought into compliance or removed.


No they don't. The EPA sets standards for emissions, certifies vehicles that meet those emissions ( :laugh: ), and hands out fines for non-compliance. They are not obligated, nor legally able, to bring privately owned cars on the road into compliance, that is what state emissions testing is for ( :laugh: ). It was the EPAs job to make sure VW didn't sell cars that polluted over the standards they set. They failed to do this. The EPA can fine VW, NHTSA can force the recall, the EPA can test the 'fix' to make certain it is compliant, and the States can clean up the cars of owners who don't want the fix by way of emission testing for registration (if they already have such laws in place).


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

ClownCar said:


>


She looks like a young Jane Seymour. Mmmmmmm


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Mazda 3s said:


> She looks like a young Jane Seymour. Mmmmmmm


Holy ****, you're right.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Chilcoot said:


> Holy crap, make stuff up much? I never suggested any of this.
> 
> Nothing about banning cargo ships, nothing about replacing all cargo ships, none of that.
> 
> ...


The internet would be a lot tidier place if you took 15 seconds to Google search before posting.

http://www3.epa.gov/nonroad/



> In May 2004, as part of the Nonroad Diesel Tier 4 Rule, EPA finalized new requirements that decrease the allowable levels of sulfur in marine diesel fuel by 99 percent. These fuel improvements, which began to take effect in 2007, are creating significant environmental and public health benefits by reducing PM from new and existing engines.
> 
> In March 2008, EPA finalized a three-part program that further reduces emissions from marine diesel engines with per-cylinder displacement below 30 liters. These include marine propulsion engines used on vessels from recreational and small fishing boats to towboats, tugboats and Great Lake freighters, and marine auxiliary engines ranging from small generator sets to large generator sets on ocean-going vessels. The rule will cut PM emissions from these engines by as much as 90 percent and NOx emissions by as much as 80 percent when fully implemented.
> 
> ...


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

Has anyone noticed the last question on the vwdieselinfo.com faq page?

http://vwdieselinfo.com/faqs/

It reads as: 

*Q: I want to turn in my vehicle – can I and how?*

*A: We are cooperating closely with the regulatory authorities to develop a remedy as quickly as possible. We ask for your patience as we work to get this done right.*

Any thoughts on this?


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

Jack-DE said:


> Has anyone noticed the last question on the vwdieselinfo.com faq page?
> 
> http://vwdieselinfo.com/faqs/
> 
> ...


You can't turn in your car until a remedy is determined? aka if there is no remedy you will be able to turn in your car


----------



## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

VT1.8T said:


> I'm sure that's testing 2016's so they can be sold.



Didn't they say in a statement that 2016 models did not have the defeat software? Is this just for Europe? Are the 2016 models the ones being held at US ports?


----------



## guachi (Sep 17, 2015)

spockcat said:


> Except I heard on the news yesterday that the US Government has given VW until October 7 to present their plan for the fix. I can't imagine they could have a fully detailed plan for all vehicles by then.


The German government gave the deadline, not the US government.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

spockcat said:


> Except I heard on the news yesterday that the US Government has given VW until October 7 to present their plan for the fix. I can't imagine they could have a fully detailed plan for all vehicles by then.


Or what, they force them to stop selling them?


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

Jack-DE said:


> Has anyone noticed the last question on the vwdieselinfo.com faq page?
> 
> http://vwdieselinfo.com/faqs/
> 
> ...


I noticed that immediately. I have to think that means they're at least putting it on the table (otherwise why even broach the topic?). Even if it's some type of offer to trade for a gas engine VW. I would consider that.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## guachi (Sep 17, 2015)

71DubBugBug said:


> Didn't they say in a statement that 2016 models did not have the defeat software? Is this just for Europe? Are the 2016 models the ones being held at US ports?


The 2016s and 2015s have the software. VW claims the software isn't needed on the EA288 engines with AdBlue. Yes, the 2016 TDIs are being held at port.


----------



## srs5694 (Aug 19, 2014)

Chilcoot said:


> But now that they've violated it so grossly, it may be wise for the various governments to excuse VW from having to fix the cars so that they comply with the Act, if they can instead get VW to do something far more beneficial to the overall environment, like fixing cargo ship engines or coal-fired power plants or cow farting or something else.
> 
> It may be indefensibly inefficient for VW to spend billions fixing cars when far greater benefits could be realized by getting VW to agree to spend the same money to fix some other air pollution source that's more of a menace to the environment.


I've a couple of thoughts on this.

First, although this may seem reasonable on the surface, there's a question of how much good it would do to have VW pay for improving cargo ship engines or coal-fired power plants. The reason is simple: The owners of those pollution sources might upgrade or replace them anyhow. If they would, then having VW pay for it would result in no benefit to society or the environment, just a cash transfer from VW to the shipping company or electric utility. If this sort of penalty became common, you might even see polluters holding out against making upgrades in the hope that somebody else will be caught in a scandal and have to pay to clean up others' messes. Having VW donate to some generic cleanup fund might mitigate this problem, but even then, such enforced donations might make others a bit less likely to donate, since the fund would seem to be doing well; or if it were a US government program, Congress would just shift funding away from it and to other programs. Thus, I think such a policy would set a very bad precedent. It may not always seem optimal in the short term, but in the long term, having polluters clean up their own messes is probably the best policy, at least as a general rule. It's the clearest path from problem to solution and creates the least opportunity for unintended consequences. (Of course, there will be unintended consequences no matter what; VW's crime is too far-reaching to not create a tsunami of unintended consequences.)

Second, speaking as the owner of an affected vehicle (a 2015 Golf TDI), I don't want to drive it if it's spewing excess pollution. Now that I know it's polluting too much, that gives _me_ a certain amount of responsibility for the excess pollution, since I'm the one who decides when and how to drive it. Even if VW were forced to update a million tankers' engines, _my car_ would continue to pollute under your scenario, and that's unacceptable to me. Of course, I would have the option of paying for a repair myself, selling the car, sending it to a crusher, or letting it rust in my driveway; but I would suffer economic losses under any of those scenarios -- and each of them also incurs its own additional environmental cost. Thus, your plan puts me in the position of either abandoning my principles (namely, to minimize my pollution) or incurring an economic loss. I should not be put in that position by VW or by the government regulators who decide VW's punishment.

That said, something like your suggestion might make sense for vehicles that are _not_ repaired. That is, there'd be a formula along the lines of: 1 year after a repair becomes available, VW has to donate $10,000 for each unrepaired car to a fund that will be used to mitigate other sources of pollution. Thus, if 300,000 of the 482,000 cars are repaired, VW donates $1.82 billion; but if 400,000 are repaired, VW donates just $820 million. Of course, this is just an off-the-cuff example penalty. I'm not suggesting this specific thing. Part of the goal, though, would be to make the penalty for unrepaired cars costlier than repairing them, so as to motivate VW to motivate _us_ to get the cars repaired.


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

*Anyone else see this coming?*

http://www.theguardian.com/environm...llution-in-real-driving-conditions-tests-show


Good bye diesel..


----------



## Dawg Dee-Lux (Jul 16, 2004)

Some 147000 cars are to be recalled here in Norway.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

srs5694 said:


> I've a couple of thoughts on this.
> 
> First, although this may seem reasonable on the surface, there's a question of how much good it would do to have VW pay for improving cargo ship engines or coal-fired power plants. The reason is simple: The owners of those pollution sources might upgrade or replace them anyhow.
> 
> ...


Good, solid criticisms.

I completely agree that the first reaction should be "Clean up the mess you made."

But there may be times where that's fundamentally impractical. The Deepwater Horizon, for example. Maybe just 25% of that 4.9 million barrels spill was recovered from the Gulf, given the limits of technology. So if BP can't clean it (and I say this having grown in a BP family), maybe it should clean something else, something that won't be cleaned otherwise.

I also agree that there's a risk of other polluters receiving a windfall. But if that windfall produces an environmental cleanup that otherwise wouldn't have occurred, due to political or other reasons, perhaps it would still be worthwhile.

I also agree about the second criticism, that you and I as '15 TDI owners don't want to drive a car that pollutes excessively. But I'd endure that shame if I know that the air is significantly cleaner because VW paid to fix some other, far worse problem than my car.

There's no great solution here. But getting the most environmental improvement from VW's money might be the right choice.


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

So what are those TDI's worth today? The answer from this accounting appears to be A LOT less. 

*Here’s What Happened When I Tried To Sell My TDi ScandalWagen to CarMax*

>8^)
ER


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

caj1 said:


> You can't turn in your car until a remedy is determined? aka *if there is no remedy* you will be able to turn in your car


THIS. 

That statement to me suggests that a buyback is the _last_ option they are going to offer.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

Peloton25 said:


> So what are those TDI's worth today? The answer from this accounting appears to be A LOT less.
> 
> *Here’s What Happened When I Tried To Sell My TDi ScandalWagen to CarMax*
> 
> ...


Appalling, but not surprising. It's still too soon to know what will ultimately happen to TDIs in the US, so Carmax is trying to reduce their risk. 

Once the fix is in and reactionary folks calm the **** down, the values will rise. Maybe not quite to pre-scandal levels, but out of the Abyss levels.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

Peloton25 said:


> *Here’s What Happened When I Tried To Sell My TDi ScandalWagen to CarMax*


Complains about diminished residual on a lease?

It's official. I've seen everything.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

_Got this email from Audi last night:_

Subject: *A note to our customers about A3 TDI emissions.*

Dear [customer],

In recent days, news articles have mentioned Audi in connection with the ongoing action involving certain TDI diesel products that do not comply with emissions standards. 

The numbers reported are startling: Nearly 500,000 Volkswagen and Audi models in the United States. Without question, this has caused confusion and concern in your mind about our products, and even our brand overall. 

That’s why I’d like to set the record straight here. 

First, allow me to define what’s at issue for Audi in America. The Environmental Protection Agency and California Air Resources Board have determined that Audi A3 models equipped with 2.0-liter TDI engines contained software aimed at producing better emissions results in testing, and that these vehicles do not comply with emissions standards. 

These cars represent a limited, but symbolically important part of our lineup. Altogether, we have sold approximately 14,300 A3 TDI models to U.S. customers starting with the 2010 model year. But we know that an owner — and the credibility of our great brand — stands behind each one of these cars. 

Make no mistake, we at Audi of America view this situation as unacceptable and we are pushing for remedies that can be presented to regulatory authorities and to our loyal customers and fans. We intend to make things right. 

If you own an Audi A3 2.0-liter TDI model we want to start a dialogue with you, and we will be reaching out directly by phone over the next couple of weeks with additional information, support and next steps. The affected A3 2.0-liter TDI models are safe and legal to drive while the engineers develop a remedy. Audi diesel models with the 3.0-liter V6 TDI engines — the Q5, Q7, A6, A7 and A8 — were not referenced in the EPA’s letter, they remain on the market, and are available at dealerships. 

In the meantime, I encourage you to let us know if you have any questions by calling 800-822-2834, or by e-mail to [email protected]. As your representative for Audi in America, I will keep our team focused on maintaining your trust in our products, our technologies and our people. We will do the right thing by you. 

Best regards, 


Scott Keogh
President
Audi of America, Inc.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

That's what a friend said. He's sold very few cars involved. Average A3 buyer wants to save money, but wants Quattro since this is New England. Quattro and TDI gets pretty expensive for the class it's in, so they don't sell many at all.


----------



## Egz (May 30, 2002)

Peloton25 said:


> So what are those TDI's worth today? The answer from this accounting appears to be A LOT less.
> 
> *Here’s What Happened When I Tried To Sell My TDi ScandalWagen to CarMax*
> 
> ...


He now knows how most other car owners now feel. Or maybe that's just my Fords.


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

Lwize said:


> Appalling, but not surprising. It's still too soon to know what will ultimately happen to TDIs in the US, so Carmax is trying to reduce their risk.
> 
> Once the fix is in and reactionary folks calm the **** down, the values will rise. Maybe not quite to pre-scandal levels, but out of the Abyss levels.


My thoughts exactly. Sounds like someone was scraping out the barrel out for internet-column material.


----------



## pasateando (Mar 19, 2002)

witch hunt is picking up traction:

http://news.yahoo.com/vw-says-1-8-mn-commercial-vehicles-emission-092856765.html


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

Egz said:


> Or maybe that's just my Fords.


I traded in my TDI for a low mileage, low in-service time, loaded 2014 Escape in May. 8 months in service and 12,000 miles. Stickered for $38K. I got it for $26K at my friend's dealership. 

I just saw their sister dealer next door has a 2014 Escape with only 6,000 miles on it. Was thinking of it for my wife. I ran the VIN through Ford, and it's the 1.6, not 2.0, and looks like it doesn't have NAV.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

srs5694 said:


> I've a couple of thoughts on this.
> 
> First, although this may seem reasonable on the surface, there's a question of how much good it would do to have VW pay for improving cargo ship engines or coal-fired power plants. The reason is simple: The owners of those pollution sources might upgrade or replace them anyhow.


Understandable concern. Here in Ohio as well as at the Federal level, there is a program to retrofit school buses with pollution control equipment or replace ancient buses with no controls. That provides a tangible benefit to local communities, and it's a pretty clear cut case where the equipment wasn't going to be upgraded or replaced anyway given the limited budgets of school districts. As there are many pre-2007 yellow buses running around the country, I see no reason VW couldn't buy a bunch of new buses to achieve the same result. 

http://www.epa.ohio.gov/oeef/EnvironmentalEducation.aspx#131364251-clean-school-bus-grants
http://www2.epa.gov/cleandiesel/clean-school-bus


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

I think all the US tax credit money handed out based on what the TDI was supposed to deliver is going to come into play soon. 

No way does the Fed ignore that.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

classicjetta said:


> Understandable concern. Here in Ohio as well as at the Federal level, there is a program to retrofit school buses with pollution control equipment or replace ancient buses with no controls. That provides a tangible benefit to local communities, and it's a pretty clear cut case where the equipment wasn't going to be upgraded or replaced anyway given the limited budgets of school districts. As there are many pre-2007 yellow buses running around the country, I see no reason VW couldn't buy a bunch of new buses to achieve the same result.
> 
> http://www.epa.ohio.gov/oeef/EnvironmentalEducation.aspx#131364251-clean-school-bus-grants
> http://www2.epa.gov/cleandiesel/clean-school-bus


That's actually a really great idea. I know some of you are saying that this doesn't punish VW for their intentional criminal act and you are correct, but that is what the EPA and DOJ are going to handle with fines and possible jail time for those involved. Retrofitting the cars is a separate issue entirely and it is a valid point that there could be better ways to spend the money to reduce pollution vs retrofitting a bunch of tiny diesel engines. I crunched the numbers and retrofitting 500,000 VWs at 3,750 a car amounts to 1.875 *billion* dollars! I imagine you could do a lot with that money. In the US most people buy diesels to rack on highway miles, they are not ideal for stop and go city traffic (where the smog that diesels produce is a serious problem).


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Sporin said:


> I think all the US tax credit money handed out based on what the TDI was supposed to deliver is going to come into play soon.
> 
> No way does the Fed ignore that.


What were those credits based on?


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Chilcoot said:


> I think I get the point.
> 
> Yes, VW is legally obligated to comply with the Clean Air Act, no question.
> 
> ...





DJMRDARK said:


> Even if you want to limit the discussion to just that violation, the EPA has a legal obligation to have those cars brought into compliance or removed. That's it. No supplementary action on the part of VW would address THAT. This is why your suggestion is a nonstarter.


Above and beyond the whole criminal fraud thing, I think Chilcoot has a point here. EPA is absolutely has the legal and moral right to bring those cars into compliance or, through DOJ, obligate states to refuse to register them. However, doing so would be politically costly, and there's a whole claque of Washington boneheads who would have a field day with "big government harassing consumers" and "overreach" and so on. EPA is unpopular enough that it has precious little political capital to burn. 

Compensatory mitigation has a precedent in US environmental law - you can buy wetland bank credits if a project disturbs jurisdictional wetlands, for example, and we've all heard of CAFE and carbon credits. I can see VW being required to fund compensatory mitigation for the reasonable service life cycle of those 500,000 cars, just spitballing. It may be the most politically palatable way for EPA to address the CAA violations specifically. That would have to be in addition to DOJ proceedings to address the fraud and so on, but it'd sure be easier than prying TDIs out of their fans' cold dead hands.


----------



## Spoolin2Liter (Sep 10, 2014)

As soon as the media stops talking about VW like the CEO killed the president things will be fine. The media will jump on some other scandal nameyourscandal-gate and the values will rise, cars will still be sold, and VW will come up with a solution to this issue. Im not bringing my car in unless they're going to buy it back. I honestly dont care that they did this. They were benefiting the consumer... its a double edged sword. 

'murica


----------



## VarianceVQ (Jun 26, 2005)

Spoolin2Liter said:


> As soon as the media stops talking about VW like the CEO killed the president things will be fine. The media will jump on some other scandal nameyourscandal-gate and the values will rise, cars will still be sold, and VW will come up with a solution to this issue. Im not bringing my car in unless they're going to buy it back. I honestly dont care that they did this. *They were benefiting the consumer... its a double edged sword.
> *


This is the single most ignorant thing anyone can say about this whole thing and the great part is that it keeps getting repeated.


----------



## Cole Orlling (Mar 18, 2015)

Turbio! said:


> "big government harassing consumers" and "overreach" and so on


If the federal government forcing half a million people to bring their car to the VW dealer by way of blocking their registration doesn't fall under the catagory of "overreach," I'm not sure what does. 



Turbio! said:


> EPA is unpopular enough that it has precious little political capital to burn.


There's probably a reason for that.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

classicjetta said:


> Understandable concern. Here in Ohio as well as at the Federal level, there is a program to retrofit school buses with pollution control equipment or replace ancient buses with no controls. That provides a tangible benefit to local communities, and it's a pretty clear cut case where the equipment wasn't going to be upgraded or replaced anyway given the limited budgets of school districts. As there are many pre-2007 yellow buses running around the country, I see no reason VW couldn't buy a bunch of new buses to achieve the same result.
> 
> http://www.epa.ohio.gov/oeef/EnvironmentalEducation.aspx#131364251-clean-school-bus-grants
> http://www2.epa.gov/cleandiesel/clean-school-bus


Essentially the penalty you want for a company that defrauds the U.S. Government and violates the EPA requirements is to pay a fine and move on. Going forward, since getting caught will involve a fine and not actually fixing the problem the company created, they can run the numbers on what it costs to get caught and possibly just make the decision to move forward with the fraud. Requiring VW to fix the problem (my guess is fixing them will be more expensive then building them right in the beginning), then pay a fine (use this money on the trees or buses), with possible criminal prosecution makes it hard to justify doing this again in the future.



Turbio! said:


> Above and beyond the whole criminal fraud thing, I think Chilcoot has a point here. EPA is absolutely has the legal and moral right to bring those cars into compliance or, through DOJ, obligate states to refuse to register them. However, doing so would be politically costly, and there's a whole claque of Washington boneheads who would have a field day with "big government harassing consumers" and "overreach" and so on. EPA is unpopular enough that it has precious little political capital to burn.
> 
> Compensatory mitigation has a precedent in US environmental law - you can buy wetland bank credits if a project disturbs jurisdictional wetlands, for example, and we've all heard of CAFE and carbon credits. I can see VW being required to fund compensatory mitigation for the reasonable service life cycle of those 500,000 cars, just spitballing. It may be the most politically palatable way for EPA to address the CAA violations specifically. That would have to be in addition to DOJ proceedings to address the fraud and so on, but it'd sure be easier than prying TDIs out of their fans' cold dead hands.


VW comes up with a fix and requires everyone to get it done. I think someone else posted that 37% of the population lives in states that require EPA testing so these cars will all get done. A large part of the VW owners will want to have cars meeting EPA requirements, or won't understand any of this, or want to get future VW warranty work so all of these get done. Then there are a tiny amount of VW fanatics that don't want to get it done and get forced. 100k owners (my guess is far less than this) in a population of 300 million in the U.S. isn't going to create a political mess when their main defense is they have a vehicle that pollutes far more than is allowed and doesn't want to get their car fixed.

I would say the political mess for the government is catching VW doing this and not being able to force them or the owners to fix the problem. Most will be far more upset with the process if people are allowed to avoid fixing their cars than the ones that don't want to fix them. 

Buying credits is negotiated and understood on the front side, not after you get caught breaking the law. If we want to create a system where car companies can trade planting trees for not meeting EPA standards we should make the decision for cars going forward.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Cole Orlling said:


> If the federal government forcing half a million people to bring their car to the VW dealer by way of blocking their registration doesn't fall under the catagory of "overreach," I'm not sure what does.


Next thing you know the government will start testing the cars you already own and requiring you to get them fixed if they don't meet their standards or they won't allow you to register them. Oh wait....


----------



## Cole Orlling (Mar 18, 2015)

dmorrow said:


> Next thing you know the government will start testing the cars you already own and requiring you to get them fixed if they don't meet their standards or they won't allow you to register them. Oh wait....


The cars pass the tests that are in place. 

It's VW's problem that they don't otherwise - not the consumer that purchased the car.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

dmorrow said:


> Next thing you know the government will start testing the cars you already own and requiring you to get them fixed if they don't meet their standards or they won't allow you to register them. Oh wait....


Next thing you know the government will start testing the cars before they certify them :laugh:


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Cole Orlling said:


> The cars pass the tests that are in place.
> 
> It's VW's problem that they don't otherwise - not the consumer that purchased the car.


Obviously the current test isn't doing the intended job. 

So if I take my one year old car in to get tested, the catalytic converter has failed (car companies fault not mine) do they then let me go or require me to get it fixed?


----------



## 1305gti (Jul 29, 2003)

There is no way that anyone's going to be denied registration. Our cars passed the test that was in place when the cars were allowed to be sold. What VW did is completely inexcusable, they cheated! That is something that will damage their brand forever! 
Basically, the cars will pass the current EPA test and thats all the counts. They can't retro-implement a new testing standard and expect our cars to pass. Vehicles get grandfathered in for all sorts of things all the time!


----------



## Cole Orlling (Mar 18, 2015)

dmorrow said:


> So if I take my one year old car in to get tested, the catalytic converter has failed (car companies fault not mine) do they then let me go or require me to get it fixed?


Irrelevant. If you take your 1 year old TDI in, it will pass an emissions test.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

1305gti said:


> There is no way that anyone's going to be denied registration. Our cars passed the test that was in place when the cars were allowed to be sold. What VW did is completely inexcusable, they cheated! That is something that will damage their brand forever!
> Basically, the cars will pass the current EPA test and thats all the counts. They can't retro-implement a new testing standard and expect our cars to pass. Vehicles get grandfathered in for all sorts of things all the time!


Your understanding of the situation is minimal at best. States can halt registrations of the cars until they're fixed, CA has done so. If you're already registered fine, but you cannot sell it to another in state party until it's been resolved. 

Passing the EPA test also entails that your cars not be programmed to trick it. There is no new testing standard for the cars, there is a fix VW must apply that the EPA is satisfied addresses the issue of tricking the test. The EPA now knows what the trick was, when the car is tested minus the cheat it's going to have to pass the same tests as it 'passed' before.

Other brands have done this in the past though not to the extent VW did on this. 

VW will be fine brand wise.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

1305gti said:


> There is no way that anyone's going to be denied registration. Our cars passed the test that was in place when the cars were allowed to be sold. What VW did is completely inexcusable, they cheated! That is something that will damage their brand forever!
> Basically, the cars will pass the current EPA test and thats all the counts. They can't retro-implement a new testing standard and expect our cars to pass. Vehicles get grandfathered in for all sorts of things all the time!


You really think no one will be denied registration? Possibly not in your state but you really don't know and I am willing to bet CARB isn't going to let this slide. Their job is to clean up the air and make sure the current laws are followed. I can't see anyone there saying "looks like a lot of hassle, lets just forget about this". The size of the problem to cross reference VW recalled VIN's and new registrations is tiny, especially when they can create a department of people to do it and have VW pay for it. I can't see any reason as head of CARB that I wouldn't enforce it.

A "new testing standard", and "company found a work around to avoid detection" are completely different things.


----------



## driveareliablecar (Jan 28, 2003)

From the guradian dot com
Wide range of cars emit more pollution in realistic driving tests, data shows
Diesel cars made by Renault, Nissan, Hyundai, Citroen, Fiat and Volvo among others emitted far more NOx in more rigorous tests, research shows


Looks like lab testing did not equal real world. Pretty much the end of an entire line of engines.


----------



## Cole Orlling (Mar 18, 2015)

driveareliablecar said:


> Looks like lab testing did not equal real world.


Running cars through a standard test yields different results than real world driving? No way.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Cole Orlling said:


> Irrelevant. If you take your 1 year old TDI in, it will pass an emissions test.


Only because of the fraud already admitted to by VW. Their is no question in anyone's mind that the current cars are not meeting the legal requirements when they are normally operated. 

Once VW helps them understand how all of this was done (I'm sure they will), it would be extremely easy to have the emission test software check to see what program is currently being run and "fail" the car if is the non compliant software. Current test doesn't catch the violators so modify the test. There is no law or regulation that doesn't allow a government agency to revise their tests to catch someone or something violating the law.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

driveareliablecar said:


> From the guradian dot com
> Wide range of cars emit more pollution in realistic driving tests, data shows
> Diesel cars made by Renault, Nissan, Hyundai, Citroen, Fiat and Volvo among others emitted far more NOx in more rigorous tests, research shows
> 
> ...


i'd say the the testing is in dire need of changes if so many have managed to get by it. if all the kids in class are copying answers from the smartest kid, and the teacher doesn't notice, who's really at fault?


diesel engines aren't dead. they aren't going to die. people were saying the same thing before, and they'll do the same thing they did then. it'll go quiet for awhile, with development on something better, before we're given something that's efficient, environment friendly, and not as boring to drive as a Prius.


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

Sporin said:


> I think all the US tax credit money handed out based on what the TDI was supposed to deliver is going to come into play soon.
> 
> No way does the Fed ignore that.



I thought of the same thing, but then this got me thinking:



Hajduk said:


> What were those credits based on?



I recall that the credits were based on MPG figures. When I bought mine the DSG TDI got more credit than the 6MT TDI. The DSG got a few more MPG on the EPA test. 

So while I was originally thinking that the Fed might go after VW for reimbursement, if, post fix, the cars still make the _rated_ mileage, then there's nothing to go after VW for.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

GoHomeBroke said:


> diesel engines aren't dead. they aren't going to die. people were saying the same thing before, and they'll do the same thing they did then. it'll go quiet for awhile, with development on something better, before we're given something that's efficient, environment friendly, and not as boring to drive as a Prius.


It's already here, it's called turbocharged direct injection gasoline engines. In America, the biggest push is for smog, and the gasoline engines are equal to or better than diesel engines when it comes to smog. In Europe the big push is CO2 and the gasoline engines are equal to or better than diesel on CO2 also. Just look at the data below.










Diesel's time has passed. It offers nothing except "character" for people who want to be different from everyone else.


----------



## TnTNYC (Aug 1, 2012)

Apologies if this was posted already - this thread is moving rather quickly! Autoblog is reporting that a fix was developed a few years back by simply adding in the AdBlue process. Would have cost $335 per vehicle, and VW bean counters declined to institute it...

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/30/vw-diesel-fix-would-have-cost-335-per-vehicle/

_Since the Volkswagen diesel kerfuffle began, Bosch, the world's largest auto supplier, has been hooked up to a bullhorn trying to make sure everyone knows its side of the story. Bosch supplied VW with the engine management testing software, including delivery and metering modules, that VW then used to skirt emissions laws in the US. Bosch told VW in 2007 that it was illegal to use the software in cars it planned to sell yet VW did it anyway, according to reports coming out in German newspapers Bild am Sonntag and Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung.

That first warning came two years after VW started developing the small-displacement diesel, around the time that the two men pushing its development, then-brand chief Wolfgang Bernhard and engineer Rudolf Krebs, were telling their superiors that the engine needed AdBlue urea injection to pass US emissions. VW cost controllers wouldn't approve the AdBlue solution because it would add 300 euros ($335 US) to the cost of the vehicle. Bernhard and Krebs left the same year that Bosch advised VW about the software, two years before the engine went into production.

That's when things get cloudy. A report in Automotive News says that when Martin Winterkorn took over in 2007 as head of the VW Group and brand, he asked Ulrich Hackenberg and Wolfgang Hatz to keep working on the engine, and "[the] engine then ended up in VW Group diesels" with that problematic software still intact. No one has yet pointed any fingers at this latter chain of command, but like a game of Clue, right now they're the professors in the library holding the candlesticks.

Warnings didn't only come from the supplier: Frankfurter says VW's initial investigation has found that an engineer issued the same caution to the company in 2011. Neither Bosch nor VW would comment on the reports._


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> It's already here, it's called turbocharged direct injection gasoline engines.


Let's just make sure nobody puts them under a microscope...... :laugh:


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Surf Green said:


> Let's just make sure nobody puts them under a microscope...... :laugh:


Especially their PM


----------



## TnTNYC (Aug 1, 2012)

AZGolf said:


> It's already here, it's called turbocharged direct injection gasoline engines. In America, the biggest push is for smog, and the gasoline engines are equal to or better than diesel engines when it comes to smog. In Europe the big push is CO2 and the gasoline engines are equal to or better than diesel on CO2 also. Just look at the data below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agree. Here in CT I can buy mid-grade gasoline for a few cents less than diesel. And, these new small turbo motors are getting good enough gas mileage that the price premium for a diesel is not economically sound. Do the math and the number of miles one must drive to see any benefit is so minimal that the opportunity cost outstrips it. Diesel may have a short future left in certain states, but I really don't see any benefit whatsoever to driving one here. :screwy:

Signed, Proud 2.0T Owner


----------



## TnTNYC (Aug 1, 2012)

Whoops!

"...so minimal..." = "...so many..."


----------



## surefooted (May 21, 2001)

How funny is this? It's not just VW and cars doing it. Other industries are getting caught doing the same type of things too...



Gizmodo said:


> A series of tests by EU-funded research group ComplianTV suggest that Samsung TVs use more power in real-life conditions than they do when undergoing efficiency tests.
> 
> Some Samsung TVs feature a ‘motion lighting’ feature that’s supposed to reduce brightness, and thus power consumption, when fast video motion is detected. But, as The Guardian reports, the EU study showed that, while the feature kicks in during international electrotechnical commission (IEC) test conditions, in a day-to-day setting no such power reductions are observed.
> 
> ...


http://gizmodo.com/report-samsung-tvs-use-more-power-in-efficiency-tests-1733966847


Samsung immediately was like "don't compare us to VW!!". hahahahahaha


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> Diesel's time has passed. It offers nothing except "character" for people who want to be different from everyone else.


While I agree that diesel's time is passing/has passed, if I lived in the mountains I'd definitely prefer a diesel over the standard engine for the way it drives. They're wonderful to drive and can pull a grade like no 'equivalent' gasser can. As an example, my nephew bought a New Beetle right when they first came out in '98, so his is (yes, he still has it) a 2.0 with a 5-speed. A couple of years later my brother bought a diesel New Beetle for his wife and it is (yes, he still has that, too!) a 5-speed TDI. When the two of them went on vacation they needed both cars and the gasser could pull away from the diesel fairly easily on flat ground, but on hills the diesel could walk away from the gasser. Granted, this is a 2.0, but the TDI was an early 1.9 liter 90 horse/149 ft. lb. engine, but I think fairly representative of the fundamental difference of the modern ones as well.

As I said, I think it's time is over too, but that doesn't mean I can't be sad for the passing of an age. :beer:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

GoHomeBroke said:


> i'd say the the testing is in dire need of changes if so many have managed to get by it. if all the kids in class are copying answers from the smartest kid, and the teacher doesn't notice, who's really at fault?


Ummm, it's the kids' fault. It's the teacher's fault for not catching them, but the kids are definitely at fault for cheating unless the teacher coaxed them into it to improve his own numbers.




GoHomeBroke said:


> diesel engines aren't dead. they aren't going to die. people were saying the same thing before, and they'll do the same thing they did then. it'll go quiet for awhile, with development on something better, before we're given something that's efficient, environment friendly, and not as boring to drive as a Prius.


The Prius' problem isn't the driveline, it's Toyota/the Prius itself. All it would take is suspension/brake tuning, less aggressive power steering boost and a change to throttle mapping to make it _much_ more interesting to drive. Well, that and tires, of course.

It would help if it weren't hideous looking, but that isn't my end-all reason for buying a car anyway.


----------



## adrew (Aug 15, 2003)

Air and water do mix said:


> The Prius' problem isn't the driveline, it's Toyota/the Prius itself. All it would take is suspension/brake tuning, less aggressive power steering boost and a change to throttle mapping to make it _much_ more interesting to drive. Well, that and tires, of course.


I don't know if it'll turn out to be true -- but, from what I've read, Toyota put a decent amount of effort into making the next Prius more fun to drive. The biggest change is a switch from a torsion-beam axle to a double-wishbone rear end.


----------



## moses_dx (Oct 1, 2014)

Air and water do mix said:


> While I agree that diesel's time is passing/has passed, if I lived in the mountains I'd definitely prefer a diesel over the standard engine for the way it drives. They're wonderful to drive and can pull a grade like no 'equivalent' gasser can. As an example, my nephew bought a New Beetle right when they first came out in '98, so his is (yes, he still has it) a 2.0 with a 5-speed. A couple of years later my brother bought a diesel New Beetle for his wife and it is (yes, he still has that, too!) a 5-speed TDI. When the two of them went on vacation they needed both cars and the gasser could pull away from the diesel fairly easily on flat ground, but on hills the diesel could walk away from the gasser. Granted, this is a 2.0, but the TDI was an early 1.9 liter 90 horse/149 ft. lb. engine, but I think fairly representative of the fundamental difference of the modern ones as well.
> 
> As I said, I think it's time is over too, but that doesn't mean I can't be sad for the passing of an age.


That's why European people love their diesel cars


GoHomeBroke said:


> priceless.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Enviado desde mi D6633 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Air and water do mix said:


> Ummm, it's the kids' fault. It's the teacher's fault for not catching them, but the kids are definitely at fault for cheating unless the teacher coaxed them into it to improve his own numbers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Ummm, it's the kids' fault. It's the teacher's fault for not catching them,


so the EPA is at fault too, then. 

not gonna lie. lack of performance aside, it's butt ugly. there have been plenty of ugly cars in the past that have been worth it just because of the performance they offered. this is not one of those cars. :laugh:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

http://www.slate.com/articles/techn...as_a_villain_and_it_s_the_not_the_people.html




> Every scandal needs a face, but the parade of drab German middle managers in the Volkswagen emissions-testing scandal has yet to produce the right one. It’s not Martin Winterkorn, who resigned as the company’s CEO last week after it was revealed that Volkswagen had installed “defeat devices” on more than 11 million diesel cars since 2009, causing them to “cheat” on emissions testing, producing acceptable admissions when tested before revving up to more than 40 times over that limit in real usage. With such a cartoonishly outrageous mission, the cheating device itself is more colorful and malevolent than any of the purported wrongdoers we’ve seen so far.
> 
> 
> But if the scandal has its villainous mastermind, someone who was powerful and involved enough to be responsible—indirectly, at least—it is most likely Ferdinand Piech, the grandson of Ferdinand Porsche and a powerful member of the Porsche clan that controls Porsche and VW. Until this spring, Piech chaired the Volkswagen Group’s board, and several of his hand-selected executives are at the heart of the affair. And yet almost no one in the English-language press is talking about him or the opaque, dynastic ownership structure of VW, which allows for almost no outside shareholder input. As with Chris Christie and Bridgegate, Piech may have plausible deniability when it comes to the defeat devices, yet he presided over the culture that allowed them to be installed. With his reputation for tightly controlling Volkswagen’s operations and carefully shaping its executive ranks, Piech owns the company’s successes over the last 20 years. He ought to own this scandal too.
> ...


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

classicjetta said:


> Understandable concern. Here in Ohio as well as at the Federal level, there is a program to retrofit school buses with pollution control equipment or replace ancient buses with no controls. That provides a tangible benefit to local communities, and it's a pretty clear cut case where the equipment wasn't going to be upgraded or replaced anyway given the limited budgets of school districts. As there are many pre-2007 yellow buses running around the country, I see no reason VW couldn't buy a bunch of new buses to achieve the same result.
> 
> http://www.epa.ohio.gov/oeef/EnvironmentalEducation.aspx#131364251-clean-school-bus-grants
> http://www2.epa.gov/cleandiesel/clean-school-bus


Excellent suggestion!

I'm pretty sure I'm going to contact my Congressional reps and suggest they encourage the EPA to have the money VW would have spent retrofitting our diesels go instead towards reducing more serious government or nonprofit emissions, such as these school buses. This eliminates the windfall issue that srs5694 raised yesterday.

If the retrofit money can better clean the air if spent elsewhere, it should be.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Chilcoot said:


> Excellent suggestion!
> 
> I'm pretty sure I'm going to contact my Congressional reps and suggest they encourage the EPA to have the money VW would have spent retrofitting our diesels go instead towards reducing more serious government or nonprofit emissions, such as these school buses. This eliminates the windfall issue that srs5694 raised yesterday.
> 
> If the retrofit money can better clean the air if spent elsewhere, it should be.


one state down, 49 more to go.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Chilcoot said:


> I'm pretty sure I'm going to contact my Congressional reps and suggest they encourage the EPA to have the money VW would have spent retrofitting our diesels go instead towards reducing more serious government or nonprofit emissions, such as these school buses. This eliminates the windfall issue that srs5694 raised yesterday.


Sounds like a plan, the tobacco settlement money went to improving public health and stopping teen smoking efforts :sly:


----------



## wolfcastle (Jul 28, 2006)

Silly_me said:


> Sounds like a plan, the tobacco settlement money went to improving public health and stopping teen smoking efforts :sly:


The teens ahve moved on to clean vape technology


----------



## Cole Orlling (Mar 18, 2015)

wolfcastle said:


> The teens ahve moved on to clean vape technology


Imagine the outcry when they find that their "mods" were rigged to only burn clean when being tested.


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

wolfcastle said:


> The teens ahve moved on to clean vape technology


"Clean"


----------



## srs5694 (Aug 19, 2014)

Chilcoot said:


> I'm pretty sure I'm going to contact my Congressional reps and suggest they encourage the EPA to have the money VW would have spent retrofitting our diesels go instead towards reducing more serious government or nonprofit emissions, such as these school buses. This eliminates the windfall issue that srs5694 raised yesterday.


No, it doesn't. Directing VW to fix school buses makes it less likely that the government will do so. This will just be a windfall for the government, rather than for the private sector.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

What? :sly:

EPA says *'likely'* recall of VW diesel cars

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/01/us-volkswagenemissions-epa-idUSKCN0RV5B720151001


----------



## genjy (Aug 7, 2005)

Jack-DE said:


> What? :sly:
> 
> EPA says *'likely'* recall of VW diesel cars
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/01/us-volkswagenemissions-epa-idUSKCN0RV5B720151001


"Likely" recall because the other outcome is sending the TDIs to the crusher.


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

Jack-DE said:


> What? :sly:
> 
> EPA says *'likely'* recall of VW diesel cars
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/01/us-volkswagenemissions-epa-idUSKCN0RV5B720151001


Officially (so far) the EPA have only issued a Notice of Violation to Volkswagen which you can read in its entirety here:

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf

Early reporting jumped the gun a bit by stating that the EPA had "ordered a recall" - there's nothing in the NOV ordering a recall at this point, but for ease of understanding you could certainly state that it is inevitable.

>8^)
ER


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Jack-DE said:


> What? :sly:
> 
> EPA says *'likely'* recall of VW diesel cars
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/01/us-volkswagenemissions-epa-idUSKCN0RV5B720151001


Well I think it was mentioned that if VW throws its hands up and declares that it is *impossible* to fix the cars, then there's simply no reason to recall them. They'll have to pay the fine and support some kind of effort to offset the smog that their cars are likely to create in their years of service. I don't think it's reasonable to try to buy them all back.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

srs5694 said:


> No, it doesn't. Directing VW to fix school buses makes it less likely that the government will do so. This will just be a windfall for the government, rather than for the private sector.


Okay.

Yay.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Jack-DE said:


> What? :sly:
> 
> EPA says *'likely'* recall of VW diesel cars
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/01/us-volkswagenemissions-epa-idUSKCN0RV5B720151001


It was EPA's job to issue the notice of violation. It's VW's job to figure out what to do next and to actually issue the recall notices when the time comes to do so. EPA can't say that VW "will" recall the cars because it's not their responsibility to issue the recall notices - it's VW's responsibility.

It remains to be seen whether the solution to this will be (A) a recall with some sort of technical retrofit, (B) a buy-back and crush, (C) some sort of negotiated settlement that has VW admitting impossibility and doing some sort of offsetting action, or (D) some combination of these (and which may differ depending on which vehicle model and year and which type of NOx emission control was originally installed).

Since a recall is not the only possible outcome, it would be presumptuous of the EPA to say that there "will" be one (even though the probability is as darn close to 100% as you can get).


----------



## Chmeeee (Jun 24, 2002)

GoFaster said:


> (B) a buy-back and crush


I can't see how it's ever a net benefit to the environment to crush a 1/2 million perfectly good cars just because their emissions are above the threshold. The environmental impact of wasting that much material and manufacturing impact is just stupid. If it becomes apparent that they can't be retrofitted, then VW should be forced to make offsetting contributions/improvements elsewhere.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

It's not an environmental benefit to buy them back and scrap them. The EPA is the enforcement body but somewhere within VW someone will be adding up the costs. We know that the cars can be made compliant by retrofitting the AdBlue SCR system but at what cost?

If it costs (say) $5000 per vehicle parts and labour, would you do it to a low mileage 2014 Jetta? Probably. Would you do it to a 2009 which already has 200,000 miles on it? Probably not ... Would you do it to a car whose owner is co-operative and just wants to make the car legal and keep on driving it? Probably. Would you do it to a car whose owner is playing chicken little and demanding excessive compensation and threatening lawsuits (and many such owners have showed up here and on TDIclub)? It's probably better to make that one go away. Perhaps bought back, retrofitted, and sold to someone else ... if it's economically viable.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

guachi said:


> The 2016s and 2015s have the software. VW claims the software isn't needed on the EA288 engines with AdBlue. Yes, the 2016 TDIs are being held at port.


2009-2015 cars are affected. 2016s are being held until the fix is implemented and the EPA is happy.


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

Just came across this video.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

pasateando said:


> witch hunt is picking up traction:
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/vw-says-1-8-mn-commercial-vehicles-emission-092856765.html


Did anybody else see this part?

"Australia's competition watchdog on Thursday said the German auto maker could be fined Aus$1.1 million *(US$780,000) for each cheating device*"

I guess Australia's not messing around! Such fines are never going to happen, but I'm astonished that they wrote laws even making such draconian penalties legal.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

GoFaster said:


> It's not an environmental benefit to buy them back and scrap them. The EPA is the enforcement body but somewhere within VW someone will be adding up the costs. We know that the cars can be made compliant by retrofitting the AdBlue SCR system but at what cost?
> 
> If it costs (say) $5000 per vehicle parts and labour, would you do it to a low mileage 2014 Jetta? Probably. Would you do it to a 2009 which already has 200,000 miles on it? Probably not ... Would you do it to a car whose owner is co-operative and just wants to make the car legal and keep on driving it? Probably. Would you do it to a car whose owner is playing chicken little and demanding excessive compensation and threatening lawsuits (and many such owners have showed up here and on TDIclub)? It's probably better to make that one go away. Perhaps bought back, retrofitted, and sold to someone else ... if it's economically viable.


This is some logical thinking right here. Let the people who want the retrofit do it - and there are probably lots and lots of people that will just do that - and let some others decide what is the better option for them.


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

A very interesting test. Anyone with a recalled TDI should watch. 

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/ho...th-its-defeat-device-turned-on-vs-turned-off/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

Thanks. Very interesting. Folks at a dealer last week told me they hadn't seen h.p./torque numbers yet.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

jen_madcity said:


> A very interesting test. Anyone with a recalled TDI should watch.
> 
> https://www.carthrottle.com/post/ho...th-its-defeat-device-turned-on-vs-turned-off/


shome's on-point response from the bosch thread



Shomegrown said:


> These guys have no idea what they are doing.
> 
> 
> They fail to understand the difference between WHP and the flywheel outputs a manufacturer will provide.
> ...



:thumbup:


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

According to the comments they didn't turn off traction control...


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> shome's on-point response from the bosch thread
> 
> 
> :thumbup:


Yeah, I noticed that, too. It was a good example of "knowing enough to be dangerous".


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

NYTimes: U.S. States Jumping Into Investigation of VW Emissions Deception

_A bipartisan coalition of attorneys general from at least 30 states and the District of Columbia has joined a fast-moving investigation into the possibilities of consumer fraud and environmental violations by the German automaker Volkswagen._


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

> These guys have no idea what they are doing.
> 
> They fail to understand the difference between WHP and the flywheel outputs a manufacturer will provide.
> They make a big deal about disabling the traction control/ESP. The 2011 Jetta they tested doesn't even have a button to do this (which is precisely why the dash lit up and the car reduced power).
> ...



Was going to read article, saw Shomegrown's assessment, will not read article now. Clicks saved. :beer:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

btitus said:


> NYTimes: U.S. States Jumping Into Investigation of VW Emissions Deception
> 
> _A bipartisan coalition of attorneys general from at least 30 states and the District of Columbia has joined a fast-moving investigation into the possibilities of consumer fraud and environmental violations by the German automaker Volkswagen._


Well, unless the different state and federal governments actually cooperate (!) that sounds like an amazing waste of resources/keystone cops.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

So this is so hard to keep track of, but what of the Audi A3 tdi? They sold a whole bunch here but I don't see it in the recall though I was lead to believe it's the same setup as the VW counterparts.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

jnm2.0t said:


> So this is so hard to keep track of, but what of the Audi A3 tdi? They sold a whole bunch here but I don't see it in the recall though I was lead to believe it's the same setup as the VW counterparts.


It is. 

I beleive there are between 11-13K Audi TDI's affected.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> i think theres a really good chance the cars take a big mpg hit once they "fix" this


2010-2015 A3 TDIs are on the list


----------



## rick_chicago (Feb 12, 2002)

Hajduk said:


> 2010-2015 A3 TDIs are on the list


I believe it's 2.1 million Audi's globally, and includes the A1, A3, A4, A5, A6, TT, Q3 and Q5, with 13k in the US (obviously not all those models in the US)...I assume these were included in the 11 million vehicle statistic as it was referenced as "group brands"


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

rick_chicago said:


> I believe it's 2.1 million Audi's globally, and includes the A1, A3, A4, A5, A6, TT, Q3 and Q5, with 13k in the US (obviously not all those models in the US)...I assume these were included in the 11 million vehicle statistic as it was referenced as "group brands"


From the email we got from AudiUSA: _"Altogether, we have sold approximately 14,300 A3 TDI models to U.S. customers starting with the 2010 model year."_


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

Doubtful they'd crush these cars, and I'm not sure how people can reasonably believe that to be a viable solution. Totally agree that that would be an egregious amount of material waste. These cars will be made compliant and more than reasonable to drive. 

But hey, if they go to crush them, they can pull all the cool parts out (Lighting Package, seats, premium Fender audio, Bluetooth, foglights and bumpers, rims etc.) and sell over the counter upgrades and recoup on parts and installation costs at dealers :thumbup:


----------



## pretzelogik (Oct 1, 2010)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxKUNHpEop0


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

pretzelogik said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxKUNHpEop0


Are you Rorik Olson? 

Ain't nobody got time to listen to 18+ minutes of rambling.

I skimmed the caption though - it seems to get to the heart of the misguided feelings expressed in the video so I'll quote it here and address below.



Rorik Olson on YT said:


> I own one of the TDIs involved in the recent scandal between VW and the EPA, so I thought I'd express a few thoughts on the whole thing.
> 
> Edit: I was starting to see some comments that were just **** talking and taking up space, so comments are disabled now. Not a big deal to me because if you have something to say, this isn't talk****inthecommentstube, this is youtube, so make your own video.
> 
> ...


Yes - all cars will pollute more in real world non test cycle conditions, but they'll still pass the test without a cheat code. Volkswagen couldn't manage that process without a separate engine map and that's illegal if undisclosed. Had it been disclosed they would have failed and their products could have not been sold, so regulations were subverted purely for financial gain. Better efficiency is not an excuse to allow excessive pollution. 

>8^)
ER


----------



## pretzelogik (Oct 1, 2010)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgfrfxXLz_c


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

Take a look at the German VW site: http://www.volkswagen.de/de.html

As a summary, they say we should have been celebrating the union of the two Germany's 25 years ago but we state here only one sentence: 

*We will do everything to win back your trust.*


Most likely I am naive, but I want to believe them.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Jack-DE said:


> Take a look at the German VW site: http://www.volkswagen.de/de.html
> 
> As a summary, they say we should have been celebrating the union of the two Germany's 25 years ago but we state here only one sentence:
> 
> ...


Buyback my TDI at pre-scandal KBB with 1.25x multiplier
Give me a nice discount on a new VW as a loyalty bonus

Then we can talk


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Mazda 3s said:


> Buyback my TDI at pre-scandal KBB *with 1.25x multiplier*
> Give me a nice discount on a new VW as a loyalty bonus
> 
> Then we can talk


keep dreaming. :wave:

might as well wreck the damn thing and ask them to buy it back at the price you initially paid for it. it ain't happening.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Peloton25 said:


> Yes - all cars will pollute more in real world non test cycle conditions, but they'll still pass the test without a cheat code. Volkswagen couldn't manage that process without a separate engine map and that's illegal if undisclosed. Had it been disclosed they would have failed and their products could have not been sold, so regulations were subverted purely for financial gain. Better efficiency is not an excuse to allow excessive pollution.
> 
> >8^)
> ER


I am amazed that VW fans are still blaming the EPA for this. :banghead:


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

BRealistic said:


> I am amazed that VW fans are still blaming the EPA for this. :banghead:


Agreed. And I don't understand the comparison to the ignition, airbag, and unintended acceleration recalls.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

CK98Beeetle said:


> Agreed. And I don't understand the comparison to the ignition, airbag, and unintended acceleration recalls.


long story short, people have tried saying that VW is indirectly responsible for more people dying than should have, but can't agree on how many, let alone provide anything but ballpark math and rough statistics. and they're trying to portray it as being worse than what other companies have done, despite other companies being directly responsible for the deaths of people without having to use anything other than pointing at a list of people who have died because of a product they sold.


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

GoHomeBroke said:


> long story short, people have tried saying that VW is indirectly responsible for more people dying than should have, but can't agree on how many, let alone provide anything but ballpark math and rough statistics. and they're trying to portray it as being worse than what other companies have done, despite other companies being directly responsible for the deaths of people without having to use anything other than pointing at a list of people who have died because of a product they sold.


And all that is irrelevant. It's apples to oranges. It's this concept of comparing in this whiney social media era. "Such and such is a hero for what they did!"...."Well what about the troops! They're heroes too! Are you saying they aren't heroes?!?! Come on bruh!!"

"VW lied about emissions and will suffer consequences."... "Well GM killed people!!!" ok........


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> long story short, people have tried saying that VW is indirectly responsible for more people dying than should have, but can't agree on how many, let alone provide anything but ballpark math and rough statistics.


I didn't try to say that. I did say that. You agreed, several times. You just don't think that indirect contributions to elevated mortality rates actually counts or matters as an ethical liability. 



GoHomeBroke said:


> and they're trying to portray it as being worse than what other companies have done, despite other companies being directly responsible for the deaths of people without having to use anything other than pointing at a list of people who have died because of a product they sold.


I certainly haven't argued that, so those who have can defend it, if there are any.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> long story short, people have tried saying that VW is indirectly responsible for more people dying than should have, but can't agree on how many, let alone provide anything but ballpark math and rough statistics. and they're trying to portray it as being worse than what other companies have done, despite other companies being directly responsible for the deaths of people without having to use anything other than pointing at a list of people who have died because of a product they sold.


*The only reason* people even said emissions adds to pollution which leads to premature deaths is because VW fanboys were initially saying this was overblown and nothing compared to those safety recalls because "nobody died".
IOW- they started it.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

GoHomeBroke said:


> long story short, people have tried saying that VW is indirectly responsible for more people dying than should have, but can't agree on how many, let alone provide anything but ballpark math and rough statistics. and they're trying to portray it as being worse than what other companies have done, despite other companies being directly responsible for the deaths of people without having to use anything other than pointing at a list of people who have died because of a product they sold.


As an owner, I'm not trying to "portray" anything, nor do I need to. What VW did speaks for itself: it's fraud, on a massive scale. However, I do see a lot of people saying things like "well, why are you so upset, it's not as bad as GM, who killed people." Long story short, VW apologists are the ones that are "portraying" it as being _less _than what other companies have done.


----------



## Chmeeee (Jun 24, 2002)

GoHomeBroke said:


> long story short, people have tried saying that VW is indirectly responsible for more people dying than should have, but can't agree on how many, let alone provide anything but ballpark math and rough statistics. and they're trying to portray it as being worse than what other companies have done, despite other companies being directly responsible for the deaths of people without having to use anything other than pointing at a list of people who have died because of a product they sold.


I'm pretty sure that your primary hobby is intentionally misunderstanding the arguments of others so you can extend every thread you participate into an infinite loop of arguing.

1. Deaths due to NOx are a scientific fact, you do not argue this. 
2. TDIs added to it above their allowable level in an amount not at all insignificant. 

Ergo: they contributed to the deaths.

Second point - worse than the other companies because it was _*intentional*_. Read that word again. Look it up if you don't know what it means.


----------



## Liquid1.8T (Dec 20, 1999)

I would like to know from those who work at or have recently visited a VW dealership, what is the customer traffic situation like? Have some people stopped going into the dealerships looking at VWs?


----------



## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

Liquid1.8T said:


> I would like to know from those who work at or have recently visited a VW dealership, what is the customer traffic situation like? Have some people stopped going into the dealerships looking at VWs?


A friend of mines son is a salesman at a vw dealer, put in his two weeks notice and is moving to a gm dealership because they have had hardly any foot traffic since this news broke.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Chmeeee said:


> I'm pretty sure that your primary hobby is intentionally misunderstanding the arguments of others so you can extend every thread you participate into an infinite loop of arguing.
> 
> 1. Deaths due to NOx are a scientific fact, you do not argue this.
> 2. TDIs added to it above their allowable level in an amount not at all insignificant.
> ...





> 1. Deaths due to NOx are a scientific fact, you do not argue this.


of course i don't. i'm not an idiot. good luck pinning those NOx related deaths on VW. :thumbup:



> 2. TDIs added to it above their allowable level in an amount not at all insignificant.


you're overstating the obvious. but, again, good luck getting as specific with deaths caused by VW as we can with Takata airbags, GM ignition cylinders, and various others.


the point is that you can't sit here and say "VW contributed to extra deaths per year, related to NOx pollution" and say it's anywhere near as bad as "GM's ignition cylinder problems killed 124 people." VW broke the law and needs to be punished, but it's bogus to think it's as bad or worse than what GM did. 

people making the argument that what VW did is worse than what GM or others have done are missing one important fact. there are not statistics or probabilities involved with what others have done. there is no one saying "Well GM may be responsible for..." or "Honda may be responsible for..." or anything like it. directly tying xx amount of extra deaths per year related to emissions to any specific manufacturer is impossible, let alone to any particular emission source. 



> Second point - worse than the other companies because it was _*intentional*_.





> your primary hobby is intentionally misunderstanding


perhaps you don't understand it. 


GM *intentionally* swept their knowledge of the ignition cylinder problems under the rug. Takata *intentionally* swept their knowledge of the airbag problems under the rug.

:wave:


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

To my mind, this troll post . . .



GoHomeBroke said:


> long story short, people have tried saying that VW is indirectly responsible for more people dying than should have, but can't agree on how many, let alone provide anything but ballpark math and rough statistics. and they're trying to portray it as being worse than what other companies have done, despite other companies being directly responsible for the deaths of people without having to use anything other than pointing at a list of people who have died because of a product they sold.


was completely destroyed by this unreasonably respectful post . . . .



Chmeeee said:


> I'm pretty sure that your primary hobby is intentionally misunderstanding the arguments of others so you can extend every thread you participate into an infinite loop of arguing.
> 
> 1. Deaths due to NOx are a scientific fact, you do not argue this.
> 2. TDIs added to it above their allowable level in an amount not at all insignificant.
> ...


Very well done, Chmeeee. (And others did pretty well too.) We can move on to other things.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Chilcoot said:


> To my mind, this troll post . . .
> was completely destroyed by this unreasonably respectful post . . . .
> Very well done, Chmeeee. (And others did pretty well too.) We can move on to other things.


it's hilarious that you agree what VW did is worse than what GM or Takata did, and use his reasoning as a point. like this, for example.


Chmeeee said:


> Second point - worse than the other companies because it was intentional. Read that word again. Look it up if you don't know what it means.


GM knew for years and still did nothing.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/19/gm-ignition-switch_n_5601864.html

Takata knew about their faulty airbag igniters.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...now-about-the-takata-air-bag-recall/index.htm

so how is what they did not intentional? VW's was intentional, no one has argued against that. can you prove which people have died as a result of what VW did, cause i can prove who died as a result of what GM and Takata did.



Chmeeee said:


> Ergo: they contributed to the deaths.


i've never argued against this. VW *contributed* to an increase in the amount of annual fatalities related to NOx emissions. what you don't seem to get is how this sentence works. when someone or something _contributes_ to someone/something else, they are part of what's responsible. this means they only get part of the credit for whatever their contribution helped do, good or bad. 


i'd pay good money to see a trial where VW is charged with killing people they can't name because there are no direct links between what VW did and people dying.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> of course i don't. i'm not an idiot. good luck pinning those NOx related deaths on VW. :thumbup:
> 
> 
> you're overstating the obvious. but, again, good luck getting as specific with deaths caused by VW as we can with Takata airbags, GM ignition cylinders, and various others.


You're getting hung up on an irrelevant distinction. No, I can't "pin" specific deaths on VW. I can't pin any specific death on any point source of air pollutants. I don't have to. They're not being placed on trial for murder or negligent manslaughter. 

There were a whole bunch of VW apologists trying to push the argument that this was a victimless, tiny infraction of a pointless regulation and that VW really didn't do anything ethically wrong. The point I made was that, no, this was a sizable infraction, and the resultant pollution does do real harm, and this wasn't just the mean old government with a grudge against diesels and those who wuv them. Why are you getting wrapped around the axle about not being able to name names?


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

oldschool eighty8 said:


> A friend of mines son is a salesman at a vw dealer, put in his two weeks notice and is moving to a gm dealership because they have had hardly any foot traffic since this news broke.


Where is that? Our Zone hit objective this month without the TDI's and still had year over year growth.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Where is that? Our Zone hit objective this month without the TDI's and still had year over year growth.


That's good, but I hate to say it but I went to my local VW dealer (Spitzer Amherst) last week to see if they had hidden all their TDI's (They had), and everyone was pretty glum...it was very slow.


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

GoHomePossum said:


> That's good, but I hate to say it but I went to my local VW dealer (Spitzer Amherst) last week to see if they had hidden all their TDI's (They had), and everyone was pretty glum...it was very slow.



I glanced at the lot of a VW dealership on my commute and noticed they have moved more used cars, read domestic trucks/jeeps/suvs, up in the lot with the new VWs back against the building. Not sure if they were just moving stuff around for cleaning/etc or if it is a plan to draw more people in to the dealership.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Turbio! said:


> You're getting hung up on an irrelevant distinction. No, you can't "pin" specific deaths on VW. You can't pin any specific death on any point source of air pollutants. You don't have to. They're not being placed on trial for murder.
> 
> There were a whole bunch of VW apologists trying to push the argument that this was a victimless, tiny infraction of a pointless regulation and that VW really didn't do anything ethically wrong. The point I made was that, no, this was a sizable infraction, and the resultant pollution does do real harm, and this wasn't just the mean old government with a grudge against diesels and those who wuv them.





> You're getting hung up on an irrelevant distinction.


it's not irrelevant. when people say that what VW did is worse and use half brained excuses to justify that stance, it's completely relevant. VW is not the only source of the chemical their TDI cars emitted. they're not even the the largest. not even close. but their drop in the bucket is supposedly worse than GM or Takata being, quite literally, the only reason hundreds of people are dead or seriously injured? what the hell are people smoking to believe that? this wasn't a victimless thing. it's not a pointless regulation. and they broke laws and codes of conduct in the process. punish them accordingly. 

as it stands, they're set up to pay 20 times more than GM did for killing people. we can directly attribute 390 names to the list of people who's lives were drastically and tragically affected by GM's faulty ignition switch. anyone can look that up. 

the largest source of NOx emission is planet Earth itself. but if we're talking strictly man made, then here's a pie chart to start breaking things down.









10% of man made sources are automotive. (this is worldwide)
factor in every automotive and industrial source of NOx (in the US alone), and we'd more than likely be left with the TDI's from VW equalling far less than .1% of that slice of the pie. 

so we are talking about VW playing a _very_ small role in the amount of deaths per year due to NOx emissions. and people are getting upset over it? it's asinine. it's making a mountain out of a mole hill. 

what VW did was immoral, illegal, and unethical. by all means, punish them for what they did. but it wasn't worse than what GM or Takata did. not by a long shot. 





link for sources.
http://whatsyourimpact.org/greenhouse-gases/nitrous-oxide-sources


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> I couldn't remember which states were affected. A quick search says:
> 
> 
> 
> So that's 14 states plus DC in total, including California itself. I compared against a list of population per state and found that those 15 places represent 120 million Americans, which is about 37% of the total population. Not every state does inspections, but an inspection does not preclude withholding registration based on a VIN cross-check. We'll see how it plays out in reality in the coming months.


PA does not have a Diesel emissions program, they are all exempt. All PA counties have inspection, but that is NOT
emissions related. There are counties in PA that do not require GAS car emissions either. For cars that have
to be emissions tested in PA, they must pass that first, before the safety inspection. Well, since Diesels are
exempt across the state, all I need is inspection, which is scheduled for next Friday. I already renewed registration
about three week ago, and already have the plate sticker on.


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

GoHomePossum said:


> That's good, but I hate to say it but I went to my local VW dealer (Spitzer Amherst) last week to see if they had hidden all their TDI's (They had), and everyone was pretty glum...it was very slow.


I'm in dealerships all of the time, and it's rare that they don't look slow except for service drives in the morning, and the lot on weekend afternoons. Even then, local sports team playing, first day of good weather in awhile, etc can cause them to be quiet and look empty. It's more the norm for the stores to look slow than look busy. Combine that with the fact that people visit 1.4 dealers per transaction now vs >5 years ago, and the traffic always looks light. 

Now, if everyone is glum, that's their issue. A sales team is like a sports team. Good and bad energy massively play into the health of your team. If the manager is whining about the end of times because the TDI's have a stop sale, he empowers the salesguys to do the same. 

If a VW dealer is having issues right now, the truth of the matter is that it's their fault, and not the TDI stop sale. That's just an excuse.


----------



## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Where is that? Our Zone hit objective this month without the TDI's and still had year over year growth.



Central Maine, it's a fairly small dealership.


----------



## Liquid1.8T (Dec 20, 1999)

Thats an interesting take. So what you are saying is, excluding all of the TDI sales its business as usual?



[email protected] said:


> I'm in dealerships all of the time, and it's rare that they don't look slow except for service drives in the morning, and the lot on weekend afternoons. Even then, local sports team playing, first day of good weather in awhile, etc can cause them to be quiet and look empty. It's more the norm for the stores to look slow than look busy. Combine that with the fact that people visit 1.4 dealers per transaction now vs >5 years ago, and the traffic always looks light.
> 
> Now, if everyone is glum, that's their issue. A sales team is like a sports team. Good and bad energy massively play into the health of your team. If the manager is whining about the end of times because the TDI's have a stop sale, he empowers the salesguys to do the same.
> 
> If a VW dealer is having issues right now, the truth of the matter is that it's their fault, and not the TDI stop sale. That's just an excuse.


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

Liquid1.8T said:


> Thats an interesting take. So what you are saying is, excluding all of the TDI sales its business as usual?


Exactly my point. It's so much worse online than in person. VW did just put out a $2k owner loyalty rebate, so it's a great time to swap up if you want a VW.


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Exactly my point. *It's so much worse online than in person*.


Cannot compute.


----------



## MGQ (Apr 16, 2002)

vbora01 said:


> Cannot compute.


The idea of "in person"? it's what people used to do before working from home and amazon were invented.


----------



## kw59 (Oct 21, 2011)

GoHomeBroke said:


> \the largest source of NOx emission is planet Earth itself. but if we're talking strictly man made, then here's a pie chart to start breaking things down.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Totally epic fail. You know how to search but you don't know even the most basic things about the actual science. Nitrous oxide is NOT equivalent to NOx at all. :screwy: Different chemicals, emissions and health effects.


----------



## SeeMyForum (Sep 30, 2015)

VW share price fell 50% :laugh:


----------



## cameron2pt5 (Oct 19, 2006)

kw59 said:


> Totally epic fail. You know how to search but you don't know even the most basic things about the actual science. Nitrous oxide is NOT equivalent to NOx at all. :screwy: Different chemicals, emissions and health effects.


I am hesitant to weigh in here, but good call kw59. This is more like it:








Source: http://sites.gsu.edu/geog1112/the-troposphere/
Looks like we're losing the battle against reducing NOx emissions from automobile sources.


----------



## fbobberts (Jan 13, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Where is that? Our Zone hit objective this month without the TDI's and still had year over year growth.


I'm glad to hear that. :thumbup:


----------



## VadGTI (Feb 24, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> Exactly my point. It's so much worse online than in person. VW did just put out a $2k owner loyalty rebate, so it's a great time to swap up if you want a VW.


Wait, wait, wait... So, how much can I trade in my 22k miles '13 4-door 6-speed Wolfsburg Edition GTI for? And what can I get a '16 Performance Pack + Lighting Pack GTI S 4-door 6-speed for? Run these numbers! I may just do it .


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

SeeMyForum said:


> VW share price fell 50% :laugh:


Theyre getting into acquisition territory. Honestly that may be the best thing for them at this point, get acquired by a company that will clean haus.

They're at a market cap of $48B or so right now. Still too much (same relative size as Ford an GM in that regards) but if it keeps going it may be in their best interest to sell themselves to someone that will clean haus. Yeah they have that ugly unknown eventual settlement and fine hanging out there, but that hasn't stopped other acquisitions from happening.


----------



## VadGTI (Feb 24, 2000)

jnm2.0t said:


> Theyre getting into acquisition territory. Honestly that may be the best thing for them at this point, get acquired by a company that will clean haus.
> 
> They're at a market cap of $48B or so right now. Still too much (same relative size as Ford an GM in that regards) but if it keeps going it may be in their best interest to sell themselves to someone that will clean haus. Yeah they have that ugly unknown eventual settlement and fine hanging out there, but that hasn't stopped other acquisitions from happening.


Don't quote him. It's the brick-throwing spammer from India again.


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

VadGTI said:


> Wait, wait, wait... So, how much can I trade in my 22k miles '13 4-door 6-speed Wolfsburg Edition GTI for? And what can I get a '16 Performance Pack + Lighting Pack GTI S 4-door 6-speed for? Run these numbers! I may just do it .


Use Autotraders trade in marketplace for an idea on your current car. 

No idea on the pricing on the GTI. I don't work in sales anymore, and I won't be back to the store until Monday. I can check then for you if you'd like. :beer:


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Exactly my point. It's so much worse online than in person. VW did just put out a $2k owner loyalty rebate, so it's a great time to swap up if you want a VW.


On what cars?

Does it count for Audi leases? If so how far back does loyalty go? Anything about conquests?


----------



## VadGTI (Feb 24, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> Use Autotraders trade in marketplace for an idea on your current car.
> 
> No idea on the pricing on the GTI. I don't work in sales anymore, and I won't be back to the store until Monday. I can check then for you if you'd like. :beer:


That Marketplace thing wants way too much mandatory contact info . Is it the best gauge of trade-in value? I've never used it before.


----------



## VadGTI (Feb 24, 2000)

TrueCar says I can get a blue '16 S 6-speed with PP and LP for $26,075. Minus $2k, we're looking at $24,075. 

I owe $16,200 on the Mk6. There's gotta be *some* equity there. Maybe I can make this fiasco work in my favor .

Edit: Wtf, VW, why is your 60-month APR 2.9%? That's just not going to work...


----------



## GTIMike1.8T (Jan 15, 2006)

Was up late watching TV saw a lawyer add asking for owners of TDIs to call them for compensation claims.


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

VadGTI said:


> That Marketplace thing wants way too much mandatory contact info . Is it the best gauge of trade-in value? I've never used it before.


First name Law. Last name Bear. Is your number still 316-555-1212? :laugh:



jnm2.0t said:


> On what cars?
> 
> Does it count for Audi leases? If so how far back does loyalty go? Anything about conquests?


I know it's on the Jetta and Passat, but I'm not sure what others. No idea on Audis, and it's valid if you have any VW registered at that address. Nothing about conquests. Your Fusion still does you no good.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> Exactly my point. It's so much worse online than in person. VW did just put out a $2k owner loyalty rebate, so it's a great time to swap up if you want a VW.


Holy ****. This may tip the scale and put me into a new VW. 

Curse you, you lying, cheating corporation!


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

jnm2.0t said:


> On what cars?


http://www.vw.com/special-offers/


Appears to be on all 2015 and 2016 non-TDI models, plus Touregs. 

Through Nov. 2nd.

But dealers will take the rebates into account on deals, so the rebate itself will be worth less than $2,000 overall.



> Returning Volkswagen owners may be eligible for a $2,000* Owner Loyalty Bonus toward the purchase or lease of a new, 2015 or 2016 Jetta model. Excludes TDI® Clean Diesel models.
> 
> *For an individual or immediate family member residing at the same address as the individual (proof of residency required) who currently owns a Volkswagen vehicle (proof of ownership/registration is required). Limit one incentive per eligible VIN. Volkswagen of America, Inc. will pay a $2,000 Owner Loyalty Bonus toward the lease or purchase of a new, unused 2015 or 2016 Jetta, Passat, CC, Beetle, Beetle Convertible, Eos, Golf, Golf GTI, Golf R, e-Golf, Golf SportWagen, Tiguan, Touareg, and Touareg TDI. Excludes all other TDI® Clean Diesel models. No trade-in required. Offer is non-transferable. Loyalty Offer Bonus must be applied toward customer lease or purchase and is not redeemable for cash. Incentive paid to dealer and requires dealer participation. May not be combined with Volkswagen Fleet Incentives, Conquest, other Loyalty, or Dealership Employee Programs. Corporations, companies, businesses, and dealerships are not eligible. Fleet leasing, fleet management or dealer-affiliated fleet companies are not eligible. Offer ends November 2, 2015. See your local Volkswagen dealer for financing details or, for general product information, call 1-800-374-8389. © 2015 Volkswagen of America, Inc.


----------



## sweatyworker (May 4, 2005)

AZGolf said:


> Did anybody else see this part?
> 
> "Australia's competition watchdog on Thursday said the German auto maker could be fined Aus$1.1 million *(US$780,000) for each cheating device*"
> 
> I guess Australia's not messing around! Such fines are never going to happen, but I'm astonished that they wrote laws even making such draconian penalties legal.


It says for each Breach of the Law... Not sure if that is per device... Also note possibility of fines for False Advertising.





> The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission is today providing an update on its investigation into Volkswagen Group (VW) for possible use of ‘defeat devices’ in Australia, following significant public interest.
> 
> Defeat devices can be used to make vehicles perform better in testing than in real world operations.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

Through TruCar, I can get a 2016 Golf TSI S 4dr auto with Sunroof and 18" alloys for $5K off MSRP (including the rebate) - that's just under $20K. 
A 2016 Jetta S 1.4T automatic is $15,600. 

So tempting.

(But will a 2016 Civic sedan still be a better value?)


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

Lwize said:


> http://www.vw.com/special-offers/
> 
> 
> Appears to be on all 2015 and 2016 non-TDI models, plus Touregs.
> ...


We don't care about the rebate. We get nothing either way. Our lowest price doesn't move up because there is a rebate. A lower net price point allows us to conquest from other OEM's and gain marketshare, so we don't just adjust our prices up.


----------



## Aw614 (May 9, 2001)

Hmm performance pack + lighting package + 6 speed manual...but I just paid off my GTI and dont want payments


----------



## pretzelogik (Oct 1, 2010)

http://theweek.com/articles/578725/volkwagens-unethical-emissions-scam-partly-governments-fault


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

pretzelogik said:


> http://theweek.com/articles/578725/volkwagens-unethical-emissions-scam-partly-governments-fault


Yet another article blaming the government. They lead by calling it "the Environmental Protection Agency's unrealistic, even crazy, car emissions standards" yet other auto manufacturers have either simply complied anyway (Jeep/Ram and GM) or have backed away from bringing diesels (Honda/Mazda). Sorry, but you can't blame the government when it's clear that everybody else played by the rules in the US market.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

Lwize said:


> http://www.vw.com/special-offers/
> 
> 
> Appears to be on all 2015 and 2016 non-TDI models, plus Touregs.
> ...


Dang no help


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> VW did just put out a $2k owner loyalty rebate, so it's a great time to swap up if you want a VW.


*unless you own a TDI  

Sent from the bathroom by Tapatalk


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

jnm2.0t said:


> Theyre getting into acquisition territory. Honestly that may be the best thing for them at this point, get acquired by a company that will clean haus.
> .


The VW haters keep dreaming.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

Car Problems said:


> The VW haters keep dreaming.


who me?


----------



## moses_dx (Oct 1, 2014)

Everybody is gonna die, I still want a tdi in my country 

Enviado desde mi D6633 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

AZGolf said:


> Yet another article blaming the government. They lead by calling it "the Environmental Protection Agency's unrealistic, even crazy, car emissions standards" yet other auto manufacturers have either simply complied anyway (Jeep/Ram and GM) or have backed away from bringing diesels (Honda/Mazda). Sorry, but you can't blame the government when it's clear that everybody else played by the rules in the US market.


VW did this to themselves, but that doesn't mean the government's rules aren't way too stringent.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

Credit Suisse with a more accurate (I think a bit high) estimate than VW has come forward with. Though they are pretty close on the share price.

http://www.cnet.com/news/report-vw-scandal-could-cost-more-than-bps-deepwater-horizon-spill/


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

NeverEnoughCars said:


> I glanced at the lot of a VW dealership on my commute and noticed they have moved more used cars, read domestic trucks/jeeps/suvs, up in the lot with the new VWs back against the building. Not sure if they were just moving stuff around for cleaning/etc or if it is a plan to draw more people in to the dealership.


In the last few years of the Saturn brand, there was a local Saturn dealer that looked like a used car dealer, since everything in front was a used car (not Saturn).


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

moses_dx said:


> Everybody is gonna die, I still want a tdi in my country
> 
> Enviado desde mi D6633 mediante Tapatalk


Everybody is going to die, I still want to partake of cannibalism in my coutry


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

Engine Shortfall Pushed Volkswagen to Evade Emissions Testing

Interesting paragraph at the end: 
_Volkswagen has said it will unveil a technical solution for the affected vehicles on Wednesday, when the company’s supervisory board is also scheduled to hold an emergency meeting. But experts are skeptical that Volkswagen can find a way to make cars compliant without also hurting fuel economy and performance._


----------



## faberdp (Apr 1, 2010)

Lwize said:


> http://www.vw.com/special-offers/
> 
> 
> Appears to be on all 2015 and 2016 non-TDI models, plus Touregs.
> ...


The dealer will try any excuse to keep the price up, but I don't think that the dealer contributes in the recall, the money is supplied by VAG, so I call bull.


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

btitus said:


> Engine Shortfall Pushed Volkswagen to Evade Emissions Testing


So basically, they knew well in advance that their new TDI wasn't going to be clean enough, and said "F it, we'll just cheat for years and years"?

Brilliant.

This makes me think of the way Shomebody derailed the NSX thread to talk about how bad a ****-up it was for Acura to change mid-way from a transverse to longitudinal V6.

The ironing!


----------



## Shomegrown (Feb 26, 2002)

Ross1013 said:


> The ironing!


You say it like I personally had something to do with this disaster. Thankfully I don't.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

btitus said:


> Engine Shortfall Pushed Volkswagen to Evade Emissions Testing
> 
> Interesting paragraph at the end:
> _Volkswagen has said it will unveil a technical solution for the affected vehicles on Wednesday, when the company’s supervisory board is also scheduled to hold an emergency meeting. But experts are skeptical that Volkswagen can find a way to make cars compliant without also hurting fuel economy and performance._





> FRANKFURT — Volkswagen installed software designed to cheat on emissions tests in 2008 after realizing that a new diesel engine, developed at great expense, could not meet pollution standards in the United States and other countries, people with knowledge of the automaker’s internal inquiry said on Sunday.
> 
> Rather than stop production of the engine and throw out years of work and investment, managers decided to cheat, the people said, confirming a report in Bild am Sonntag, a German newspaper. They did not want to be identified because of the sensitivity of the issue.


Ok- this sounds like bull crap.
Does VW really expect us to believe that they had an all new engine completely ready to install in vehicles and... oh crap, this engine doesn't meet emissions regulations in several major markets!
The entire POINT of the all new TDI was to meet stricter emissions regulations.. RIGHT!??!
For that to be true, VW would have to be INCOMPETENT.
I would be more inclined to believe something like:
"The engines met the stricter regulations with urea injection, but it was decided that was too expensive so we just cheated the tests"


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

BRealistic said:


> Ok- this sounds like bull crap.
> Does VW really expect us to believe that they had an all new engine completely ready to install in vehicles and... oh crap, this engine doesn't meet emissions regulations in several major markets!
> The entire POINT of the all new TDI was to meet stricter emissions regulations.. RIGHT!??!
> For that to be true, VW would have to be INCOMPETENT.
> ...


I can totally believe that mistakes, aka "incompetence" could have led to this initially. I am guessing that once they realized the magnitude of the issue, the plan was to cheat for a year while they figured out a "real" solution. What is so crazy is that they apparently never went back and figured it out, and just decided to keep on cheating.

Example of a mistake that got a little too far along:
Panel blames design defect for Hubble telescope problems


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

jnm2.0t said:


> who me?


Well yes you I quoted you didn't I? I hope you are not a financial advisor because that is the worst advise I've seen in a while.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

btitus said:


> I can totally believe that mistakes, aka "incompetence" could have led to this initially. I am guessing that once they realized the magnitude of the issue, the plan was to cheat for a year while they figured out a "real" solution. What is so crazy is that they apparently never went back and figured it out, and just decided to keep on cheating.
> 
> Example of a mistake that got a little too far along:
> Panel blames design defect for Hubble telescope problems


i can buy that though we may never know exactly how it happened) but your example was very nearly the first albatross that made it to orbit!

For those of you too young to remember, the Hubble was a disaster early on, as it couldn't focus at all. It was a subsequent space walk using carefully designed set of lenses, holders and tools that corrected the telescope's vision, similar in function to the glasses that sit on my nose. The repair was a great example of making the cliché "snatching victory from the jaws of defeat".


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

Shomegrown said:


> You say it like I personally had something to do with this disaster. Thankfully I don't.


Of course, but the ironing is in the fact that you saw Acura's about-face as a big black mark for them, and emblematic of problems on the inside.

Turns out that an about-face is *exactly* what VW should have done when they realized the TDI had issues. Would have been a lot cheaper and they wouldn't have thrown their credibility in the toilet.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Air and water do mix said:


> i can buy that though we may never know exactly how it happened) but your example was very nearly the first albatross that made it to orbit!
> 
> For those of you too young to remember, the Hubble was a disaster early on, as it couldn't focus at all. It was a subsequent space walk using carefully designed set of lenses, holders and tools that corrected the telescope's vision, similar in function to the glasses that sit on my nose. The repair was a great example of making the cliché "snatching victory from the jaws of defeat".


The extremely precise measuring device malfunctioned during the polishing phase of Hubble's main mirror.
One device.. one mirror.

I'm sorry- but I fail to see any correlation between the failure of one measuring device on one mirror to an all new engine to be used on almost the entire line up of vehicles not passing the emissions standards it was specifically designed to meet.
Unless I am supposed to believe in all of VW, they only tested one engine's emissions once, and the test machine was faulty. :screwy:


----------



## gonzo08452 (Apr 17, 2006)

Did not read this entire thread but quick question....is VW offering incentives only to those with affected cars? IMO this would be a great time to capitalize on the situation by offering some sort of incentive to those who don't own a VW tdi. Maybe nor quite on the same level but at least something.


----------



## Shomegrown (Feb 26, 2002)

Ross1013 said:


> Of course, but the ironing is in the fact that you saw Acura's about-face as a big black mark for them, and emblematic of problems on the inside.
> 
> Turns out that an about-face is *exactly* what VW should have done when they realized the TDI had issues. Would have been a lot cheaper and they wouldn't have thrown their credibility in the toilet.


But irony would require me to also think that...

A.) VW is a great/benchmark company
B.) This whole thing isn't/shouldn't be a black mark for VW

When did I defend VW in all this?


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

Shomegrown said:


> But irony would require me to also think that...
> 
> A.) VW is a great/benchmark company
> B.) This whole thing isn't/shouldn't be a black mark for VW
> ...


Well you own and enjoy your Audi so close enough I guess. 

I also was very put off by Ross calling you Shomebody. Cmon Ross, we all post here a lot. Show a little class. While I'm sure it was an "autocorrect error" so some other excuse, lets act like gentlemen. I highly doubt you'd be so crass if we were discussing this over a few beers.


----------



## StringTheory (Jul 27, 2010)

BBC test of the "cheating" EU5 2014 VW Passat 2.0 TDI and a 2016 Ford Focus TDCI that, on paper, complies to EU6 norms.

Results
VW emits NOx 4 times the EU5 norm
Ford emits 5 times more NOx than EU6 norm

Together with all other independent testing shows strong evidence that VW is not alone in this.

Link
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34425306


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

gonzo08452 said:


> Did not read this entire thread but quick question....is VW offering incentives only to those with affected cars? IMO this would be a great time to capitalize on the situation by offering some sort of incentive to those who don't own a VW tdi. Maybe nor quite on the same level but at least something.


VW has a $2k owner loyalty thing going now. Makes sense to me. When there is a forest fire, you make sure your house is taken care of first, then once that's under control you help your neighbor. Get some owner loyalty programs going to try to keep your people from jumping ship. Then at some point in the near future, once the punch of that program has worn off a bit, you divert marketing money to aggressive conquest sales, perhaps.

No point in getting aggressive trying to conquest new buyers if your current customers are leaving in droves. I'm not saying they are leaving en masse currently, but it is logical to me for VW to try to nip that in the bud before it happens...because the possibility exists. Then you get the TDI fix. Then you take care of those people somehow.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

StringTheory said:


> BBC test of the "cheating" EU5 2014 VW Passat 2.0 TDI and a 2016 Ford Focus TDCI that, on paper, complies to EU6 norms.
> 
> Results
> VW emits NOx 4 times the EU5 norm
> ...


Note EU bench test is unloaded.. driving is loaded.
So it is possible that the Ford is running the exact same program on the test and when driving.

I mentioned a while back that the silence from (most of) all the other auto manufacturers is a bit... telling.
With such a debacle, one would think other manufacturers would be quick to tell their customers that their vehicles meet emission standards even in real world use.
But the silence... suggests other brands are also playing the numbers.
But do they have a special ECU tune just for testing like VW?
Because that really is the smoking gun.


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

BRealistic said:


> Note EU bench test is unloaded.. driving is loaded.
> So it is possible that the Ford is running the exact same program on the test and when driving.
> 
> I mentioned a while back that the silence from (most of) all the other auto manufacturers is a bit... telling.
> ...


I've been thinking the same thing. When Toyota had their acceleration problem and mentioned that they were coming out with a brake override that would cut the throttle if two pedals were pressed, Nissan was more than happy to make a commercial about how they've had that for years. It was previewed at the Dealer Principal conference in Vegas, and the crowd went wild as I went 

The silence IMO is telling. Many others have done it, not sure if it's been done, or just don't want to risk it.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

BRealistic said:


> The extremely precise measuring device malfunctioned during the polishing phase of Hubble's main mirror.
> One device.. one mirror.
> 
> I'm sorry- but I fail to see any correlation between the failure of one measuring device on one mirror to an all new engine to be used on almost the entire line up of vehicles not passing the emissions standards it was specifically designed to meet.
> Unless I am supposed to believe in all of VW, they only tested one engine's emissions once, and the test machine was faulty. :screwy:


It's not meant to be a "correlation" but merely an example of how an engineering defect can go unnoticed until it is "too late." In this case, a defect in a measuring tool allowed a downstream defect in the mirror that was not found until after the telescope was in orbit and it was too late to fix. The repair for the Hubble was a whole other huge project that required another mission (or maybe several) to implement in orbit.

In VW's case, the article suggests that a new engine went a long way through development before it was discovered that it was not going to pass the emissions requirement that it was ostensibly "designed" to meet. No, it does not mean that a single device failed and caused this, but I can certainly believe that there were errors or oversights in the development process that caused this to not be found or fully understood until it was too late. Unfortunately, instead of fixing the problem prior to "launch," VW decided to cheat with the software. 

My example was in response to someone who could not believe mistakes could lead to something like this, that's all.

Edit: also of note in the Hubble article (my bolding): _'...Allen noted that the board's final report, due in November, would detail "various indications existing during the mirror manufacture process which *could have revealed the problem but weren't recognized at the time.*"'_


----------



## surefooted (May 21, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> Well you own and enjoy your Audi so close enough I guess.
> 
> I also was very put off by Ross calling you Shomebody. Cmon Ross, we all post here a lot. Show a little class. While I'm sure it was an "autocorrect error" so some other excuse, lets act like gentlemen. *I highly doubt you'd be so crass if we were discussing this over a few beers.*


IDK...Ever see this guys YouTube reviews? :laugh:


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

Car Problems said:


> Well yes you I quoted you didn't I? I hope you are not a financial advisor because that is the worst advise I've seen in a while.


Well, first off I'm not a vw hater, I'm trying to buy my 5th VAG product so there's that. Second off, a financial advisor wouldn't be relevant at all to the discussion of acquisition targets, that's for M&A people (hence the name of their business). So, you lose on both fronts. Womp womp.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

jnm2.0t said:


> Well, first off I'm not a vw hater, I'm trying to buy my 5th VAG product so there's that. Second off, a financial advisor wouldn't be relevant at all to the discussion of acquisition targets, that's for M&A people (hence the name of their business). So, you lose on both fronts. Womp womp.



I'm no expert but I would think the last thing the board would want right now is to put through an M&A with another company (looking at Fiat  ). If they really do run into financial trouble, I would think they are more likely to raise funds with more stock offering. I would think that would attract some people since their stock is so low and most people probably assume it will tick back up after this passes.

Before an M&A I would also think VW would shed some of their other brands to raise money if needed, (they do own Ducati right?). Maybe selling off Lambo or even SEAT or Skoda. I don't think they would ever consider selling off Audi or Porsche.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

Latest news from Germany (tagesschau.de)

_Während bei den in Nordamerika eingesetzten 2,0-Liter-Dieselmotoren Bosch-Technologie eingesetzt wurde, habe VW bei der kleineren 1,6-Liter-Variante auf Motorsteuerungen, Einspritzpumpen und Einspritzdüsen von Continental zurückgegriffen. Während bei der Bosch-Software offenbar ein Computer-Update in der Werkstatt genügt, wird es beim Continental-System laut "BamS" teurer und aufwändiger, da auch beim Motor Veränderungen erforderlich seien. So sollen unter anderem Einspritzdüsen ausgetauscht werden.
_
which translates roughly to:

_While the 2.0-liter diesel engines used in North America relied on technology developed by Bosch, VW used Continental's technology in the smaller 1.6-liter diesel engines. While a computer update will most likely sufficient for the Bosch software, more expensive and complex updates are required for the Continental System such as changes in the engine and replacement of injectors.
_

If the above is true, we in the US and Canada will most likely get just another software update and that's it. Nothing mentioned about the potential hit in performance and MPG numbers though.


----------



## Cole Orlling (Mar 18, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> Well you own and enjoy your Audi so close enough I guess.
> 
> I also was very put off by Ross calling you Shomebody. Cmon Ross, we all post here a lot. Show a little class. While I'm sure it was an "autocorrect error" so some other excuse, lets act like gentlemen. I highly doubt you'd be so crass if we were discussing this over a few beers.


Ross is just pissed because it took him months to save for his insurance deductable to 'restore' his Civic and his in-laws won't buy him a new one.



The new news doesn't sound so good for the responsible parties.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Jack-DE said:


> If the above is true, we in the US and Canada will most likely get just another software update and that's it. Nothing mentioned about the potential hit in performance and MPG numbers though.


Why would they even mention that... especially if the EPA MPG estimates and crank hp are based on the test ECU program?


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

btitus said:


> In VW's case, the article suggests that a new engine went a long way through development before it was discovered that it was not going to pass the emissions requirement that it was ostensibly "designed" to meet. No, it does not mean that a single device failed and caused this, but I can certainly believe that there were errors or oversights in the development process that caused this to not be found or fully understood until it was too late. Unfortunately, instead of fixing the problem prior to "launch," VW decided to cheat with the software.


*I also believe this scenario to be realistic... under the circumstances that existed then.*

Companies like this have a sense of strong pride and would never go into a program with the thought of cheating first. The failure is what I've noted earlier... the PRESSURES placed upon the many teams to achieve grand edicts. *The problem I often see is how executives get pressured by those above them (ex. Wall Street, BoD, peers, etc.) and they push that pressure downhill in the form of bold ideas that is sometimes is more fantasy than reality*. 

*If those making the big decisions lack enough technical/process understanding, they risk placing those teams of grunts below them (tasked to do the hard work) in a scenario of so much pressure that fear translates to regrettable, human actions... that end up failing the whole organization... or community*. Once something so disgusting as cheating happens on the scale it did there were likely many who learned/became aware. But because they didn't originate it... they ignored it because of the great pressures to launch the project... successfully. In a hierarchical organization like a corporation like VW, there are plenty of people who just simply don't want to get sucked up into the debacle and prefer to let the lie run its course just as long as it runs far from them. 

*Of course there are a handful that will speak up, but how hard do they... at the fear of being a rat or being squashed? We've already heard of at least one "engineer" who spoke up, but obviously that fell on mostly deaf ears*.

*The pressures of 800,000 in sales and lord knows what else from a corporate culture long-led by a domineering ego like Ferdinand Piech and then Winterkorn probably didn't set confidence levels high when it came to speaking up against such lofty demands.* It's this type of circumstance that some employees (engineers and managers/directors) face that can easily create the debacle VW faces now. And as I said earlier... it will be the grunts who will likely take the vast majority of the fall instead of the corporate leadership that started the snowball rolling with absurd fantasies. 

*And don't get me wrong. I have nothing against organizations stretching themselves to achieve grand goals, but without a grasp of reality, the grand goals can become fantasy. And when you combine that with the product development process of cars (which is a huge endeavor for each vehicle), the pressure to not be the obstacle in the process can place great pressures unfairly on small groups or singular team members.*


----------



## Sledge (May 15, 2005)

^^ So...much...bold and italics...

:laugh:


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Ross1013 said:


> So basically, they knew well in advance that their new TDI wasn't going to be clean enough, and said "F it, we'll just cheat for years and years"?
> 
> Brilliant.
> 
> ...


Get the hell out of this thread, Ross.


----------



## jimb (May 29, 2000)

From the Wall Street Journal

http://www.wsj.com/articles/vw-emissions-probe-zeroes-in-on-two-engineers-1444011602



> *VW Emissions Probe Zeroes In on Two Engineers*
> Volkswagen investigation focuses on two men elevated after Winterkorn was made CEO
> 
> By WILLIAM BOSTON
> ...


----------



## KGilman (Feb 3, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> Yet another article blaming the government. They lead by calling it "the Environmental Protection Agency's unrealistic, even crazy, car emissions standards" yet other auto manufacturers have either simply complied anyway (Jeep/Ram and GM) or have backed away from bringing diesels (Honda/Mazda). Sorry, but you can't blame the government when it's clear that everybody else played by the rules in the US market.


Is it clear? I'm thinking it is anything but "clear" what other manufacturers have been up to, not like everyone saw this coming from VW.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BetterByDesign (Sep 7, 2004)

jimb said:


> From the Wall Street Journal
> 
> 
> VW Emissions Probe Zeroes In on Two Engineers



Brilliant. 

So 2 people are able to do this and it goes to a global product with no vetting from compliance, legal, executive committees? 

If anything it just highlights bigger problems.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

BetterByDesign said:


> Brilliant.
> 
> So 2 people are able to do this and it goes to a global product with no vetting from compliance, legal, executive committees?
> 
> If anything it just highlights bigger problems.


2 people very high up in the organization, so it implies to me that there were a lot more people involved in this. Not sure I'd run a cheating scheme by my legal team...


----------



## jimb (May 29, 2000)

From the New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/05/business/engine-shortfall-pushed-volkswagen-to-evade-emissions-testing.html?_r=0



> *Engine Shortfall Pushed Volkswagen to Evade Emissions Testing*
> 
> FRANKFURT — Volkswagen began installing software devised to cheat on emissions tests in 2008 after realizing that a new diesel engine, developed at great expense, could not meet pollution standards in the United States and other countries, people with knowledge of the automaker’s internal inquiry said on Sunday.
> 
> ...


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

If it does just end up being a software flash for US models to meet emissions, that makes the whole "found out couldn't pass emissions late in the run to production so decided to cheat" excuse seem a bit odd.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

btitus said:


> 2 people very high up in the organization, so it implies to me that there were a lot more people involved in this.


Yeah. 

I used to work for a large defense contractor, and there were upper level engineers that had control of pretty much everything... but they personally didn't do any of the detail work that a fraud like this would require.

Where I work now, OTOH, where there are only a handful of engineers who pretty much do every facet of a design, it would be fairly easy.
There were jokes about how in the past, this one system would always fail when it was at a nice location, and they'd have to fly the programmer in. :sly:  :beer: Brilliant.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

not sure to believe him...


----------



## Professor Gascan (Sep 11, 2002)

BRealistic said:


> If it does just end up being a software flash for US models to meet emissions, that makes the whole "found out couldn't pass emissions late in the run to production so decided to cheat" excuse seem a bit odd.


On the AdBlue cars, I'm pretty sure that's all it will be. The question is what it does to drive-ability and fuel economy. I'm sure the DPF cars will be the same but the real question with them, over and above the power and economy, will be the longevity of the DPF system.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

btitus said:


> Engine Shortfall Pushed Volkswagen to Evade Emissions Testing
> 
> Interesting paragraph at the end:
> _Volkswagen has said it will unveil a technical solution for the affected vehicles on Wednesday, when the company’s supervisory board is also scheduled to hold an emergency meeting. But experts are skeptical that Volkswagen can find a way to make cars compliant without also hurting fuel economy and performance._


Yeah NY Times - just what we need. More speculation and "unnamed sources". Makes for good clicks though.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> Change of topic:
> 
> Being the 'VW Guy' in my extended family and at work, I've gotten a LOT of questions from people about this fiasco. If anyone from VWOA/VWAG is reading this thread, you really need to get some sort of commercial/full page ads/something in mass media that clarifies this* only *affects your *diesel cars*. At a family event last night only 1 person besides me knew that the problem was with diesel cars _only_. I took a quick poll and of the 15 adults there (myself included) only 1 didn't know much about the problems, and of the remaining 14, 2 of us knew it was only _diesel_ cars. Now I know this is a very very small sampling of people, but I'm betting this is pretty common.


Just to bump this again from page 92:

I was washing my MK2 yesterday and my neighbor stopped by. He asked if my affection for VWs has waned with the recent news. I said I'm not happy about it, but all the VWs in our household aren't diesel, so we're not affected by the issue. "Oh!" he said "I didn't know it was only diesel cars."  

Just like I posted previously, VW really is dropping the ball on the PR here. The general public is *not* hearing the message that this is only limited to TDI models.


----------



## fbobberts (Jan 13, 2008)

BRealistic said:


> If it does just end up being a software flash for US models to meet emissions, that makes the whole "found out couldn't pass emissions late in the run to production so decided to cheat" excuse seem a bit odd.


This is a good point, but I think the unspoken piece was probably that they couldn't meet the emissions "within the envelope of desired performance and mileage". I think another post spoke of the design envelope for the engine itself and its horsepower and torque. It would seem that the reflash would cost ~10-15 HP, and 20-30 torque, which might have been enough to make it a slower and less attractive motor.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> Just to bump this again from page 92:
> 
> I was washing my MK2 yesterday and my neighbor stopped by. He asked if my affection for VWs has waned with the recent news. I said I'm not happy about it, but all the VWs in our household aren't diesel, so we're not affected by the issue. "Oh!" he said "I didn't know it was only diesel cars."
> 
> Just like I posted previously, VW really is dropping the ball on the PR here. The general public is *not* hearing the message that this is only limited to TDI models.


I was at a local VW dealer yesterday, trying to will myself into a new Jetta and claim the $2,000 owner loyalty prize (it didn't happen). 
The place was a ghost town.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

Lwize said:


> I was at a local VW dealer yesterday, trying to will myself into a new Jetta and claim the $2,000 owner loyalty prize (it didn't happen).
> The place was a ghost town.


October is going to be tough. VW is relying on the media to tell their story instead of getting out in front of it. They need a compassionate "We're sorry" commercial, run a bunch of times during primetime that clearly states the problem does NOT affect their gasoline models. Hell, I'd go as far as to have each gas model independently tested for emissions by the very team that discovered the diesel issue and include that in their PR efforts (that's assuming they do pass emissions testing). They need cash on the hood of every car, and they need to immediately extend warranties on* all *their cars. 

Also, $2000 loyalty bonus? I've gotten emails for $500, but not $2000.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

rich! said:


> not sure to believe him...


:thumbup::laugh: too bad it didn't have a Audi _Truth in Engineering_ tag under him :laugh:


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

fbobberts said:


> This is a good point, but I think the unspoken piece was probably that they couldn't meet the emissions "within the envelope of desired performance and mileage". I think another post spoke of the design envelope for the engine itself and its horsepower and torque. It would seem that the reflash would cost ~10-15 HP, and 20-30 torque, which might have been enough to make it a slower and less attractive motor.



So instead of cheating because couldn't pass emissions, now they cheated to make a few extra horsepower?
Yeah. .. that sounds MUCH better.:sly:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> Just like I posted previously, VW really is dropping the ball on the PR here. The general public is *not* hearing the message that this is only limited to TDI models.


Are you married? I'd like to see how that goes if your wife approached you the same way, explaining she'd had sex with other men 7 times in the last year.

"Hey sweetheart, yeah, so I had sex with other men on 7 different days last year, but mathematically, that's only about 1% of the days of our marriage last year. This means I have a nearly 99% success rate at being faithful to you! You need to understand the numbers here and see why those 7 times aren't a big deal when I _didn't_ cheat on you 358 other days of the past year."

Does this help illustrate that absurdity of it? VW cheated for years and lied about it repeatedly instead of coming clean. That's why it is news. The fact that they were honest some of the time doesn't absolve the cheating.


----------



## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> October is going to be tough. VW is relying on the media to tell their story instead of getting out in front of it. They need a compassionate "We're sorry" commercial, run a bunch of times during primetime that clearly states the problem does NOT affect their gasoline models.


When has VWoA ever done anything that made sense for the brand? I'm not sure if VW AG has hamstrung the US executive team for the last 50 years, but clearly they've made some really stupid decisions over and over again. Hell, pushing "clean" diesels was a stupid idea when it was clear that Americans wanted hybrids, and the US emissions restrictions were already tighter than the EU counterparts.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

Professor Gascan said:


> On the AdBlue cars, I'm pretty sure that's all it will be. The question is what it does to drive-ability and fuel economy. I'm sure the DPF cars will be the same but the real question with them, over and above the power and economy, will be the longevity of the DPF system.


I suspect anything VW does to fix this will become a lifetime fix, both per EPA and per apologizing to customers and not making them incur added unexpected costs.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

AZGolf said:


> Are you married? I'd like to see how that goes if your wife approached you the same way, explaining she'd had sex with other men 7 times in the last year.
> 
> "Hey sweetheart, yeah, so I had sex with other men on 7 different days last year, but mathematically, that's only about 1% of the days of our marriage last year. This means I have a nearly 99% success rate at being faithful to you! You need to understand the numbers here and see why those 7 times aren't a big deal when I _didn't_ cheat on you 358 other days of the past year."
> 
> Does this help illustrate that absurdity of it? VW cheated for years and lied about it repeatedly instead of coming clean. That's why it is news. The fact that they were honest some of the time doesn't absolve the cheating.


I don't think we're on the same page here. I'm not saying an ad or campaign like this suddenly makes it right or 'absolve' the issue, it's about tellling the _correct_ story to _clarify _what is happening. 

The media message that people are hearing is that ALL of VW's models are affected and that's not correct. Other companies have been in trouble like this and there's validity in be forthright and honest with the public on what happened. A commercial with the new CEO stating "There have been mistakes, we're investigating the issues, we're cooperating fully with the EPA, and I've been brought in to clean this all up. We've removed the diesel cars from our inventory and are working around the clock for a solution for the cars already in customer's driveways. Meanwhile we want to clarify that our TSI models all meet or exceed EPA standards. Our e-Golf is blah blah blah..." 

Using your analogy it would be like the woman admiting she'd cheated and then not clarified how far things went thus allowing the husband to come up with his own conclusions. Was she was just making out with random guys or did she have several entirely separate multi-year relationships? Both are bad, but admitting the extent can help the person/customer understand the real extent of the problems and decide whether or not they can forgive the other party. Owning up to the issue in rational and authentic way can go a long way to re-establishing credibilty is all I'm saying.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

Sledge said:


> ^^ So...much...bold and italics...
> 
> :laugh:


:laugh:

I forgot CAPS, too! :banghead:


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> October is going to be tough. VW is relying on the media to tell their story instead of getting out in front of it. They need a compassionate "We're sorry" commercial, run a bunch of times during primetime that clearly states the problem does NOT affect their gasoline models. Hell, I'd go as far as to have each gas model independently tested for emissions by the very team that discovered the diesel issue and include that in their PR efforts (that's assuming they do pass emissions testing). They need cash on the hood of every car, and they need to immediately extend warranties on* all *their cars.
> 
> Also, $2000 loyalty bonus? I've gotten emails for $500, but not $2000.


It's going to be extremely tough to gain traction with a commercial when every day 500,000 people are still emitting those high nox levels. They need a fix before they can run any commercials in my opinion. Otherwise it's what "we're sorry we intentionally lied and deceived you and grossly polluted, also we don't know how to fix it yet".

That won't fly at all. They have to wait until they have a positive course of action they can embark on.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Professor Gascan said:


> On the AdBlue cars, I'm pretty sure that's all it will be. The question is what it does to drive-ability and fuel economy. I'm sure the DPF cars will be the same but the real question with them, over and above the power and economy, will be the longevity of the DPF system.


I think you mean Lean NOx Trap not DPF. All TDIs have a DPF to control particulate matter - but that is not the issue here.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Hajduk said:


> I think you mean Lean NOx Trap not DPF. All TDIs have a DPF to control particulate matter - but that is not the issue here.


^Correct me if I'm wrong but if the emissions controls are tighter (presumably through an ECU software patch) then the DPF will control more particulates and go through more regens, therefore accelerating the end of lifespan of the part. I'd like to see it warrantied for the life of the vehicle if that is the case because I've heard of DPF's going around 100-120k or so and its about a $800 job or more from the dealer to replace. And thats on the presumed "polluting" software


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> The media message that people are hearing is that ALL of VW's models are affected and that's not correct.


I don't know what news programs you've been watching, but every TV report I've seen on this scandal has said that it only affects roughly 500,000 vehicles in the US and that the affected models are diesels. Any misinterpretations of those facts are the result of the idiot public. Not really the media's fault...


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> October is going to be tough. VW is relying on the media to tell their story instead of getting out in front of it. They need a compassionate "We're sorry" commercial, run a bunch of times during primetime that clearly states the problem does NOT affect their gasoline models. Hell, I'd go as far as to have each gas model independently tested for emissions by the very team that discovered the diesel issue and include that in their PR efforts (that's assuming they do pass emissions testing). They need cash on the hood of every car, and they need to immediately extend warranties on* all *their cars.
> 
> Also, $2000 loyalty bonus? I've gotten emails for $500, but not $2000.


Absolutely NOT. They don't need any active commercials about this. It won't matter and will only continue to spread the issue to those that are currently ignorant about it all. Just ask GM when it tried its Redemption Ad Campaign years back.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

Mazda 3s said:


> I don't know what news programs you've been watching, but every TV report I've seen on this scandal has said that it only affects roughly 500,000 vehicles in the US and that the affected models are diesels. *Any misinterpretations of those facts are the result of the idiot public. Not really the media's fault*...


Exactly. This is nearly always the case... especially in this age of 15sec sound bites and a mass of the public unwilling to pay attention. But... but that will help them in the end, because said short attention span for facts NOW means they will quickly forget and be on to the next scandal.

VW needs to focus on making right with the actual consumers and governments and shareholders. And the employees that did their jobs correctly. It doesn't make PR sense to broadcast to a larger % of the public that might not even be aware... and make their PR nightmare worse. Just sayin'.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

uncleho said:


> Exactly. This is nearly always the case... especially in this age of 15sec sound bites and a mass of the public unwilling to pay attention. But... but that will help them in the end, because said short attention span for facts NOW means they will quickly forget and be on to the next scandal.
> 
> VW needs to focus on making right with the actual consumers and governments and shareholders. And the employees that did their jobs correctly. It doesn't make PR sense to broadcast to a larger % of the public that might not even be aware... and make their PR nightmare worse. Just sayin'.


Yep, totally agree. I am not that concerned with what my neighbors think of VW; I want to know how I'm going to be taken care of. AudiUSA has reached out with an email to us, but I would really like to see some details soon.


----------



## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

arstechnica.com said:


> *Op-Ed: Requiring the impossible—how pride brought VW to its knees*
> 
> *Did VW's diesel scandal happen out of a desire to impress Ferdinand Piech?*
> 
> ...


http://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/10...impossible-how-pride-brought-vw-to-its-knees/


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Yay, another article that doesn't answer its own question.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

Very interesting Op-ed ^. I don't think we'll ever know the real reason why they installed the cheat devices and ran with it, every theory is just pure speculation, but i definitely could see the whole "German engineering" and pride of having this fantastic, clean diesel on the road and being one of the first and really only brand to achieve diesel success in passenger cars as a motive.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

Hajduk said:


> Yay, another article that doesn't answer its own question.


No one knows answer, so people are coming up with plausible theories on why this happened. That's what people do generally, try and figure things out when the people with the answers are unwilling to explain the reason why.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

vwwtchr said:


> No one knows answer, so people are coming up with plausible theories on why this happened. That's what people do generally, try and figure things out when the people with the answers are unwilling to explain the reason why.


That's what lazy people do. Any one of us could have written that.

Real reporters investigate and try to find out what really happened.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Hajduk said:


> That's what lazy people do. Any one of us could have written that.
> 
> Real reporters investigate and try to find out what really happened.


So basically there shouldn't be any news reports until we know the whole story?


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

1985Jetta said:


> VW did this to themselves, but that doesn't mean the government's rules aren't way too stringent.



The Government knew about it BEFORE the scandal; VW tried to fix it twice before,
with those software updates. I never took mine in for the second one, they did
the first one when I took it in for a MIL. We all got letters for the latest software
update, I did. My MPG dropped 2-3 the first time, I wasn't doing that again.

Emissions has been proven time and time again to be a scam for everyone, and a
moneymaker for government.

Pennsylvania even has total emissions exemptions for gas trucks based on weight class!

The counties in PA that are exempt for all gassers, people heavily modify their cars, the
inspection stations don't do their jobs by looking for the tampering. These are also
the counties where you see many MANY more older cars, 60s & 70s, on the road. I
don't dare own one, it won't pass emissions, but just across the bridge, it is exempt.

UNIFORMITY is key, or there should be none. It's kind of hypocritical that one county
doesn't need emissions tests, and others do. Especially, when I can walk less than
a mile, across a bridge to another county and be exempt. 



Ricky Bobby said:


> ^Correct me if I'm wrong but if the emissions controls are tighter (presumably through an ECU software patch) then the DPF will control more particulates and go through more regens, therefore accelerating the end of lifespan of the part. I'd like to see it warrantied for the life of the vehicle if that is the case because I've heard of DPF's going around 100-120k or so and its about a $800 job or more from the dealer to replace. And thats on the presumed "polluting" software


DPF or NOx trap is not the issue, and they can't be manipulated to change the outcome.
The DPF will suffer because there will be more unburned fuel, due to the EGR needing
the change.

Since EGR reduces the available oxygen in the cylinder, the production of particulates
(fuel which has only partially combusted) is increased when EGR is applied. This has
traditionally been a problem with diesel engines, the trade-off between NOx and particulates.
The deliberate reduction of the oxygen available in the cylinder will reduce the peak power
available. For this reason the EGR is usually shut off when full power is demanded, so the
EGR approach to controlling NOx fails in this situation. That means, if you are always 
drag racing from light to light, then the system completely fails to reduce NOx, because
the EGR is OFF at W.O.T.

Also, the EGR valve can not respond instantly to changes in demand, and the exhaust
gas takes time to flow around the EGR circuit. This makes the calibration of transient 
EGR behavior particularly complex; traditionally the EGR valve has been closed during 
transients and then re-opened once steady state is achieved. However, the spike in NOx
& particulate associated with poor EGR control makes transient EGR behavior of interest.
Programming the ECU will be EGR control related, fuel curves, and such. Nothing with
the DPF or NOX traps. You have to lower combustion temperatures to reduce NOx,
and that naturally means less power, and more particulate matter due to unburned
fuel. 

We do not have variable valve timing, or after-cooler, so they can't delay closure of the
intake valves, we have the boost for the "Miller Cycle" but not VVT or aftercooler. So, that
leaves only TWO ways to reduce NOX for this problem:

1) Lower the combustion temperature (EGR) for the 3-5% efficiency hit.
2) SCR system.

That's it...


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

2.0T_Convert said:


> So basically there shouldn't be any news reports until we know the whole story?


That was not a news report.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

Hajduk said:


> That's what lazy people do. Any one of us could have written that.
> 
> Real reporters investigate and try to find out what really happened.


There is absolutely nothing lazy about that Op-ed piece. It's perfectly reasonable. Doesn't contain any histrionics, or wild allegations, instead a rational logical question "did Peich drive engineers to achieve his goals at any cost". That's what Op-ed pieces do, ask questions to help us understand why something happened.

Sorry if you don't like it, but it is an interesting point they brought up, and is relevant to the current situation.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

BRealistic said:


> For that to be true, VW would have to be INCOMPETENT.


Have you met any of them personally? You might have a different impression afterwards.... :banghead:

No one posted this yet? http://nyti.ms/1Oa4ygE



New York Times said:


> Automakers Ask Europe for Leniency in Emissions Testing
> 
> By DANNY HAKIM
> OCTOBER 2, 2015
> ...


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> Yeah NY Times - just what we need. More speculation and "unnamed sources". Makes for good clicks though.


The New York Times has a sterling reputation. Yes, they make mistakes. But the rigor of their reporting is rarely matched, day in and day out.

It can be difficult to get insiders with knowledge of industrial scandals to speak on the record. Oftentimes, they can face lose their jobs, their careers, even face civil or criminal liability for speaking out. And so reporters work to verify what the unnamed source says.

If you'd rather not read original reporting on industrial scandals that relies on unnamed sources, get used to being really ignorant about industrial scandals.


----------



## pwm (Feb 26, 2009)

Hajduk said:


> That's what lazy people do. Any one of us could have written that.
> 
> *Real reporters investigate* and try to find out what really happened.





Hajduk said:


> That was *not a news report*.


If it's not a news report and you recognize it's an op-ed piece, why are you holding it up to the standard of investigative journalism?


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> Also, $2000 loyalty bonus? I've gotten emails for $500, but not $2000.


It went into effect on Friday, and lasts through 11/2/15 on all new 2015 & 2016 models, whether purchase or lease. 
Obviously, the TDI's on stop-sale aren't included, but the Tuareg TDI is included.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Lwize said:


> It went into effect on Friday, and lasts through 11/2/15 on all new 2015 & 2016 models, whether purchase or lease.
> Obviously, the TDI's on stop-sale aren't included, but the Tuareg TDI is included.


Owner loyalty discount, eh? Do you have to trade in a car or just own one? I could drive in with my registration in-hand, but I don't think I'll be trading in a 50 year old car! :laugh:


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

Air and water do mix said:


> Owner loyalty discount, eh? Do you have to trade in a car or just own one? I could drive in with my registration in-hand, but I don't think I'll be trading in a 50 year old car! :laugh:


You just need to have a VW registered at the same address. You don't need to trade it in.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

I'm soooo over this.

seriously, this affects less that 1M cars in the USA.....and even globally it's a small percentage of all registered cars on the road......it's a mountain out of a molehill.

cars are so much better than they were 30 years ago, or even as bad as these cars are, the air is much cleaner.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

You'reDrunk said:


> *I'm soooo over this*.
> 
> seriously, this affects less that 1M cars in the USA.....and even globally it's a small percentage of all registered cars on the road......it's a mountain out of a molehill.
> 
> cars are so much better than they were 30 years ago, or even as bad as these cars are, the air is much cleaner.


Yet you're still in here posting. Go outside, smell the diesel emissions!


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Proof they knew about this last year:

24th CRC REAL WORLD EMISSIONS WORKSHOP

California Air Resources Board
National Renewable Energy Laboratory 

The Environmental Protection Agency and its California counterpart, the California Air Resources Board (CARB), are being pressured to explain why action wasn’t taken sooner to inform consumers of the assertion that VW had cheated on its emission tests. According to Dan Carter, one of the University of West Virginia researchers that discovered the discrepancy,* the EPA and CARB were informed of the problem more than a year earlier*, when the research team presented the test results at a symposium in San Diego, in March 2014.

CARB and the EPA actually sponsored the event and had representatives in the audience. By December of that year, both agencies conducted private investigations, and allegedly secured promises from VW to fix the discrepancies. Yet consumers were not told about the alleged deception, and *sales of the vehicles, which had not yet been fixed, were still booming.
*
All this was done in virtual secrecy. *People were allowed to continue buying, leasing and driving these cars.
*
CARB says it really didn’t confirm that there were problems until May of this year when it conducted “confirmatory testing to determine the efficacy of recall for both the Gen1 and Gen2 vehicles.” And while CARB chair Mary Nichols admits that the agency was in discussion with VW in 2014 regarding the emission findings, it hasn’t explained *why consumers were still allowed to purchase the vehicles.* Both agencies say that they delayed action due to VW’s assertions that the problems were due to “technical difficulties and unexpected in-use conditions,” issues that the agencies say were really due to a defeat device that restricted carbon emissions while the car was being tested in lab settings.

As this scandal widens to include unexplained discrepancies at other automakers’ factories, the overarching question seems to be not whether VW will rally to come up with an answer, but how *the deception could have been missed by environmental regulators for seven years.* What would lead to the conclusion that control tests wouldn’t need to be done on the road as well to verify lab results? It’s a particularly relevant question as we approach this December’s COP21 conference and the ongoing effort to turn back the clock on the environmental impacts of climate change.

Volkswagen isn’t the only company that is under the microscope for allegedly deceiving consumers about vehicle emission results, says the Europe-based organization Transportation and Environment. According to road tests conducted by the organization, a number of Mercedes, BMW and Peugeot vehicles guzzled, in some cases, as much as 50 percent more fuel than was stated in company-run lab tests.

So yes, the EPA and CARB also have some responsibility here, though VW
will bear the brunt of the penalties and fines.


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> Also, $2000 loyalty bonus? I've gotten emails for $500, but not $2000.


Yep, I got the $2,000 loyalty email a few days ago.....


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> You just need to have a VW registered at the same address. You don't need to trade it in.


Interesting. So what's the likelihood of someone finding a leftover 2015 model that's already discounted and then getting the additional $2000 off (and potentially negotiating an even lower purchase price)? Or is this just a straight $2000 off MSRP, take it or leave it offer?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

You'reDrunk said:


> cars are so much better than they were 30 years ago, or even as bad as these cars are, the air is much cleaner.


Actually the reported NOx levels for the Golf/Jetta TDI were as high as gasoline cars from 1981. So while there were _some_ cars from 30 years ago that the VW/Audi products were cleaner than, they were actually worse for smog than all gasoline cars of the last 30 years. All of them.


----------



## WinterWagon (Nov 7, 2012)

AZGolf said:


> they were actually worse for smog than all gasoline cars of the last 30 years. All of them.


But better for Ozone-depleting CO2 emissions :thumbup:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> Actually the reported NOx levels for the Golf/Jetta TDI were as high as gasoline cars from 1981. So while there were _some_ cars from 30 years ago that the VW/Audi products were cleaner than, they were actually worse for smog than all gasoline cars of the last 30 years. All of them.


except that we are talking about a statistically small number of affected cars.

good god, you'd think this was the beginning of Armageddon they way the media and green-freaks talk about this. it's just not that big of deal in the grand scheme of things. it's just not.

EDIT: 0.4% of the registered vehicles in the USA are the "problem".....yeah, it's the end of the world. :sly:


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

PowerslavePA said:


> Proof they knew about this last year:
> 
> 
> So yes, the EPA and CARB also have some responsibility here, though VW
> will bear the brunt of the penalties and fines.


You're really grasping at straws here. From the beginning of this story it's been reported that this started in 2014, and that the EPA and CARB had been working with VW to get an explanation for the discrepancy. But nice try here trying to somehow put this on anyone but VW. You must truly be the nuttiest of nut swingers to think this is anyone else's fault but VW.

EPA you're so awful for trying to get to the bottom of this and not just smearing VW, which is exactly how you would have described it if they had simply come out with this in the press as soon as they had heard about it.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

You'reDrunk said:


> except that we are talking about a statistically small number of affected cars.
> 
> good god, you'd think this was the beginning of Armageddon they way the media and green-freaks talk about this. it's just not that big of deal in the grand scheme of things. it's just not.


You mean like Firestone reporting, or Toyota throttle reporting? Nothing different here.


----------



## adrew (Aug 15, 2003)

I haven't scrolled back a few pages but looks like there is a new $2000 loyalty rebate for current VW owners.

I checked TrueCar and you can get a '15 Jetta 1.8T SE 5-speed for $15,727, then stack the $2000 rebate to bring it down to $13,727. And a '15 Passat S 1.8T 5-speed is $18,197/$16,197.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

vwwtchr said:


> Toyota throttle reporting?


Didn't the Toyota unintended acceleration have a few more zeroes attached to 500,000?


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> Didn't the Toyota unintended acceleration have a few more zeroes attached to 500,000?


3.8M cars in the USA, or nearly 8x more than the current "issue"


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Teehee


----------



## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

Mazda 3s said:


> Teehee


But...why is he shirtless?


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

FastGTi said:


> But...why is he shirtless?


He's not shirtless, he's wearing the 2017 Jetta :laugh:


----------



## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

Mazda 3s said:


> He's not shirtless, he's wearing the 2017 Jetta :laugh:


We may be arguing semantics, but I'm sure Denny's wouldn't serve him like that


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

FastGTi said:


> We may be arguing semantics, but I'm sure *WAFFLE HOUSE* wouldn't serve him like that


FTFY :thumbup:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

You'reDrunk said:


> 3.8M cars in the USA, or nearly 8x more than the current "issue"


The overwhelming majority of the Toyota problem was caused by owners stacking aftermarket winter floormats on top of the original floormats. When they floored the gas pedal, it would get stuck in the ridges of the winter floor mat and remain floored. Toyota was not at fault, but it was cheaper to settle and move on than fight the idiocy. Some were due to a gas pedal that was prone to sticking as it aged and picked up grime. That's totally different from what VW did by _intentionally breaking the law_.



> On February 8, 2011, the NHTSA, in collaboration with NASA, released its findings into the investigation on the Toyota drive-by-wire throttle system. After a 10-month search, NASA and NHTSA scientists found no electronic defect in Toyota vehicles.[27] Driver error or pedal misapplication was found responsible for most of the incidents.[28] The report ended stating, "Our conclusion is Toyota's problems were mechanical, not electrical." This included sticking accelerator pedals, and pedals caught under floor mats.[29]


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> The overwhelming majority of the Toyota problem was caused by owners stacking aftermarket winter floormats on top of the original floormats. When they floored the gas pedal, it would get stuck in the ridges of the winter floor mat and remain floored. Toyota was not at fault, but it was cheaper to settle and move on than fight the idiocy. Some were due to a gas pedal that was prone to sticking as it aged and picked up grime. That's totally different from what VW did by _intentionally breaking the law_.


if you had ANY clue at how the whole "emission game" was played you'd feel the same as I.

companies like Tesla, trading/selling their emission credits to stay solvent........other manufacturing doing similar, or worse, buy the credits to allow them to pollute....the EPA KNOWINGLY using error filled data to force municipalities into "attainment" .....municipalities falsifying data to get grant money .......it goes on and on.

seriously, the whole VW mess is chump change in the grand scheme of this stupid emission game.


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> Interesting. So what's the likelihood of someone finding a leftover 2015 model that's already discounted and then getting the additional $2000 off (and potentially negotiating an even lower purchase price)? Or is this just a straight $2000 off MSRP, take it or leave it offer?


Get a discount from the dealer, and $2k further off.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

FastGTi said:


> But...why is he shirtless?


To show off that sweet sweet tat.:laugh:


----------



## BeBop! (Jun 18, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Get a discount from the dealer, and $2k further off.


This might be the best time to buy a new gas VW. VW suffers but the customers profit???


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Mazda 3s said:


> Teehee


There is NO BLACK SMOKE coming out the tailpipe! You cannot
see NOx gas, so the costume is not 100% correct. Don't care how
many argue, there is NO "rolling coal" due to the emissions
scandal, just invisible NOx gas!


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

vwwtchr said:


> You're really grasping at straws here. From the beginning of this story it's been reported that this started in 2014, and that the EPA and CARB had been working with VW to get an explanation for the discrepancy. But nice try here trying to somehow put this on anyone but VW. You must truly be the nuttiest of nut swingers to think this is anyone else's fault but VW.
> 
> EPA you're so awful for trying to get to the bottom of this and not just smearing VW, which is exactly how you would have described it if they had simply come out with this in the press as soon as they had heard about it.


Not grasping anymore than any tree-hugging hippie is. It's all STUPID and
total guessing and producing falsehoods that anyone else is doing! Everyone
here is posting nonsense and conjecture, so what... Only the EPA and CARB
know the truth.

They allowed it go go on for over a year, and should have stopped any other of
them from getting on the road, KNOWING what was going on, PERIOD.

Me, personally, I do not care, will drive it, and WILL NOT take it in for recall unless
forced to. 



You'reDrunk said:


> except that we are talking about a statistically small number of affected cars.
> 
> good god, you'd think this was the beginning of Armageddon they way the media and green-freaks talk about this. it's just not that big of deal in the grand scheme of things. it's just not.
> 
> EDIT: 0.4% of the registered vehicles in the USA are the "problem".....yeah, it's the end of the world. :sly:


You got that right!

Here is what GREEN FREAKS don't tell you, or don't care to know:








Yeah, green as coal fired electric plant's polluting smoke can be....

Just a JAB like everything else...


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

PowerslavePA said:


> There is NO BLACK SMOKE coming out the tailpipe! You cannot
> see NOx gas, so the costume is not 100% correct. Don't care how
> many argue, there is NO "rolling coal" due to the emissions
> scandal, just invisible NOx gas!


As long as we're criticising the technical accuracy of that costume :screwy: a real Golf also doesn't feature Flintstonian feet holes.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

PowerslavePA said:


> There is NO BLACK SMOKE coming out the tailpipe! You cannot
> see NOx gas, so the costume is not 100% correct. Don't care how
> many argue, there is NO "rolling coal" due to the emissions
> scandal, just invisible NOx gas!


----------



## Parklife (Feb 23, 1999)

PowerslavePA said:


> Here is what GREEN FREAKS don't tell you, or don't care to know:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So the Honda Insight is a plug-in EV now?

I mean, if you feel the need to post that a Halloween costume is factually incorrect, at least try to rein yourself in a bit.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

PowerslavePA said:


> Here is what GREEN FREAKS don't tell you, or don't care to know:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh for sure, it's no secret that it's exporting pollution to the typically poorer areas where they put the power plants.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

PowerslavePA said:


> Here is what GREEN FREAKS don't tell you, or don't care to know:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Friend,

In my experience, which apparently is different that yours, it's common knowledge that electric vehicles are not zero emissions vehicles. People I know are well aware that EVs generate emissions.

However, because this nation's power plants, even with their heavy reliance on coal, produce the energy an electric vehicle needs to operate in a substantially cleaner manner than an onboard gas engine on a comparable vehicle does, the "GREEN FREAKS" you describe are justifiably proud of making a positive difference.










Source: United States Department of Energy

Those folks should be applauded, not (ineptly) belittled.


----------



## adrew (Aug 15, 2003)

Chilcoot said:


> Friend,
> 
> In my experience, which apparently is different that yours, it's common knowledge that electric vehicles are not zero emissions vehicles. People I know are well aware that EVs generate emissions.
> 
> However, because this nation's power plants, even with their heavy reliance on coal, produce the energy an electric vehicle needs to operate in a substantially cleaner manner than an onboard gas engine on a comparable vehicle does, the "GREEN FREAKS" you describe are justifiably proud of making a positive difference.


Current low-cc gas city cars are pretty efficient CO[SUB]2[/SUB]-wise:


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

Chilcoot said:


> However, because this nation's power plants, even with their heavy reliance on coal, produce the energy an electric vehicle needs to operate in a substantially cleaner manner than an onboard gas engine on a comparable vehicle does, the "GREEN FREAKS" you describe are justifiably proud of making a positive difference.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The issue isn't that they're net cleaner, that's known. The issue is that if you have 1,000 gas cars running around they spread their emissions like droppings in a generally widespread area. City only cars or city only buses sure, they don't, but normal people driving normal places doing normal things leave traces where they go.

Now take 1,000 ev cars. They leave no traces where they go but if their net emissions are say that of 500 cars, they're putting 500 cars worth directly on the immediate area around the electric plants. Net cleaner in general, net dirtier if you live near the plant.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

jnm2.0t said:


> The issue isn't that they're net cleaner, that's known.


Great, your experience is the same as mine then, on the one and only point I was was making.

I agree that EVs concentrate most of their emissions at power plants, be they coal, natural gas, hydro, nuclear, solar, etc. And we should keep that in mind, this presents an environmental justice issue, no question.

Different point than I was addressing, but one I agree with you on.


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> Get a discount from the dealer, and $2k further off.


Does that mean I can trade my Golf TDI for a new GTI?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

jnm2.0t said:


> Oh for sure, it's no secret that it's exporting pollution to the typically poorer areas where they put the power plants.


Considering California has to import.... well, feck, everything modern man needs to live, perhaps they can tell us better how to clean the air we breath in these poorer states :laugh:


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Wow, VW has completely wiped all diesels and diesel references (except the Toureg) from their US website.

They're not in the models list, they're not available in the configurator, and there is no mention of the word "diesel" on any page anywhere (except the Toureg)

:laugh:


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

Silly_me said:


> Considering California has to import.... well, feck, everything modern man needs to live


wat?



Silly_me said:


> perhaps they can tell us better how to clean the air we breath in these poorer states :laugh:


Oh hey I mean if you'd welcome all the pollutants from the EVs running around SF and LA onto the blueass state then by all means, take them!


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

jnm2.0t said:


> wat?


Apologies, I didn't realize you produced enough electricity to charge those EVs and water to keep those imported palms looking nice on your own. 




jnm2.0t said:


> Oh hey I mean if you'd welcome all the pollutants from the EVs running around SF and LA onto the blueass state then by all means, take them!


A quarter of your electricity pollutants are already exported. Add more EVs to that grid :laugh:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Chilcoot said:


> Source: United States Department of Energy
> 
> Those folks should be applauded, not (ineptly) belittled.


Exactly, electric cars were already much better, and that was when coal made up 45% of the electric grid!

http://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/monthly/pdf/sec7_6.pdf

Look at that PDF. Look at the 6-month total for the first half of 2015. Coal makes up 682,346 of the 1,921,712 million kW/h, for only 35.5% of the total. Coal power is rapidly disappearing from America and with it the emissions. Not shown here? Power generated at home by solar panels. Because that's not generated by industrial power plants, it doesn't count. Plenty of people make power off-grid for themselves and to charge their EVs with that doesn't ger reported here.

Bottom line: Electricity is dramatically better for air quality than any other way to power a car.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

jnm2.0t said:


> wat?


It's your fault that Mead and Powell are going dry. :vampire:

This thread is now about.... A$$holes growing Avocados in the desert.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

AZGolf said:


> Plenty of people make power off-grid for themselves and to charge their EVs with that doesn't ger reported here.


Really? Do they? Plenty? What constitutes plenty? From what I gather off grid solar panels for the purpose of charging an EV are pretty rare. In fact some of the night EV rates for some of the plans here are almost free. Not sure why anyone would chose an off grid system for the purpose of charging an EV. Seems like a silly thing to do.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> Bottom line: Electricity is dramatically better for air quality than any other way to power a car.


Unless you are in China where they are making the batteries or solar panels.


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

PowerslavePA said:


> Not grasping anymore than any tree-hugging hippie is. It's all STUPID and
> total guessing and producing falsehoods that anyone else is doing! Everyone
> here is posting nonsense and conjecture, so what... Only the EPA and CARB
> know the truth.
> ...


Solid post. Making all of us Iron Maiden fans look good.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

I'm just waiting for the email from Piech that says "I don't care how you do it, just make this thing pass the damn test!"


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

BeBop! said:


> This might be the best time to buy a new gas VW. VW suffers but the customers profit???


It's just a timing difference. 

Eventually, VW owners suffer.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

cpermd said:


> Does that mean I can trade my Golf TDI for a new GTI?


You don't have to trade it in for the discount, and they might not take it anyway.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Surf Green said:


> This thread is now about.... A$$holes growing Avocados in the desert.


Good. I hate Avocados, and it isn't because I'm a homophobe. That's why I hate musicals.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> I'm just waiting for the email from Piech that says "I don't care how you do it, just make this thing pass the damn test!"


I get the feeling that when Piech made threats, he did it old school and told people in person. This has both a chilling emotional impact, being face to face with an ugly, angry old man like Piech, as well as the inability to prove what was said, as there would have been no record of it having happened. Big companies also paint employees in a corner. At my company, for example, you're not allowed to prompt employees to do illegal acts. However if somebody tells you to do an illegal act, you'll need proof. However it's also against company policy to record conversations and anybody who admits to recording a conversation is dismissed from employment.

So the company covers itself twice: they put in writing that you're not allowed to coerce others and that anybody who does coercion must be terminated, but they also ensure it never gets reported by making it a terminable offense if you record conversations that prove coercion.


----------



## nm+ (Jan 6, 2006)

jnm2.0t said:


> The issue isn't that they're net cleaner, that's known. The issue is that if you have 1,000 gas cars running around they spread their emissions like droppings in a generally widespread area. City only cars or city only buses sure, they don't, but normal people driving normal places doing normal things leave traces where they go.
> 
> Now take 1,000 ev cars. They leave no traces where they go but if their net emissions are say that of 500 cars, they're putting 500 cars worth directly on the immediate area around the electric plants. Net cleaner in general, net dirtier if you live near the plant.


It depends on where you are. Only 6% of CA power is from coal. Meanwhile 20% comes from "renewables" (2.5% which is biomass, which is kinda bull****), 5.5% from large hydro, and 8.5% from nuclear. These are all sources which have minimal pollutants. The bulk comes from Natural Gas (44.5%) which is still cleaner than gasoline/diesel.
It is also way easier to clean up a few static point sources rather than a bunch of small mobile ones. They also care way less about problems like weight and size and benefit for efficency.
Further, when it comes to smog forming pollutants it gives you an opportunity to move those sources out of the populated valleys where most people live.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

just a headline... no info "Volkswagen to Delay or Cancel All Non-Essential Investments"


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

rich! said:


> just a headline... no info "Volkswagen to Delay or Cancel All Non-Essential Investments"


Here ya go: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...employees-on-diesel-scandal-as-cost-cuts-loom


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

rich! said:


> just a headline... no info "Volkswagen to Delay or Cancel All Non-Essential Investments"


Well, there goes all hope of the special models for the U.S.

Not that I thought there was any way around it after this broke, but a man _can_ hope, can't he?


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

vbora01 said:


> Here ya go: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...employees-on-diesel-scandal-as-cost-cuts-loom


This sounds like planning for failure. I'm going to guess it means all the amazing new models we've been promised in the next year or two are on hold or canceled. VW doesn't know how to cut costs in a way that doesn't affect the product for consumers. We might still get a LWB Tiguan since it's far along in development, but this may kill the Golf Sportwagen Alltrack and possibly even the Crossblue midsized SUV. Not good.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

From the above linked article: "*The company is exploring options from a simple software upgrade to outright replacing some cars.*"


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

vbora01 said:


> Here ya go: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...employees-on-diesel-scandal-as-cost-cuts-loom


First things that came to mind:
- Axe the Phaeton
- Sell off a brand or two
- Substantially raise the price of the Chiron (I actually immediately thought to cancel it altogether and shutter Bugatti, but the model is nearly finished development, so why kill it?)


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

classicjetta said:


> This sounds like planning for failure. I'm going to guess it means all the amazing new models we've been promised in the next year or two are on hold or canceled. VW doesn't know how to cut costs in a way that doesn't affect the product for consumers. We might still get a LWB Tiguan since it's far along in development, but this may kill the Golf Sportwagen Alltrack and possibly even the Crossblue midsized SUV. Not good.


I think we'll get cars like that, as the hardware and assembly lines will already be in place for other cars and any CUV is absolutely _vital_ for our market. It's the truly special cars that will get whacked. The potential MkIV Scirocco, Whatever Bulli replacement we were possibly going to get. You know, things that would set them apart in the marketplace. :beer:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> First things that came to mind:
> - Axe the Phaeton
> - Sell off a brand or two
> - Substantially raise the price of the Chiron (I actually immediately thought to cancel it altogether and shutter Bugatti, *but the model is nearly finished development, so why kill it*?)



Wait, wait. I know this one.

Because like the Veyron they will lose money on every one they sell?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Air and water do mix said:


> Wait, wait. I know this one.
> 
> Because like the Veyron they will lose money on every one they sell?


But was the money lost mainly because the initial development cost was so high or the actual production costs were so high?


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

Air and water do mix said:


> I think we'll get cars like that, as the hardware and assembly lines will already be in place for other cars and any CUV is absolutely _vital_ for our market. It's the truly special cars that will get whacked. The potential MkIV Scirocco, Whatever Bulli replacement we were possibly going to get. You know, things that would set them apart in the marketplace. :beer:


I hope you're right and I'm wrong, but VW has a long history of incredibly stupid decision making when it comes to product planning.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

spockcat said:


> But was the money lost mainly because the initial development cost was so high or the actual production costs were so high?


I'm obviously not 'in' with Bugatti, but I believe the answer is "yes" for both!

At least that's what I read on the internet, so it must be true, right?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

classicjetta said:


> I hope you're right and I'm wrong, but VW has a long history of incredibly stupid decision making when it comes to product planning.


Then there's gems like this in the article:

"Volkswagen could put a push to gain market share in the North America on hold as long as there’s no clarity on the extent of the costs of fixing the cars and potential fines, said Jose Asumendi, a London-based analyst at JPMorgan Chase & Co. The carmaker outlined plans in March for an investment of about $1 billion to expand its vehicle assembly plant in Mexico’s Puebla state. That work could face a delay, Asumendi said."

This is like the old Dilbert comic where the boss explains that they can either increase profits by increasing sales or cutting costs, and they've decided to cut costs. This continues until costs are cut to zero, at which point sales are also zero. It's a joke because it illustrates that while trimming the fat is good, just outright cutting costs in a way that cuts sales is counter-productive. It leads to simply having to cut costs more next year too because your sales are down, thus your costs are still too high for that level of sales.


----------



## TnTNYC (Aug 1, 2012)

AZGolf said:


> Then there's gems like this in the article:
> 
> "Volkswagen could put a push to gain market share in the North America on hold as long as there’s no clarity on the extent of the costs of fixing the cars and potential fines, said Jose Asumendi, a London-based analyst at JPMorgan Chase & Co. The carmaker outlined plans in March for an investment of about $1 billion to expand its vehicle assembly plant in Mexico’s Puebla state. That work could face a delay, Asumendi said."
> 
> This is like the old Dilbert comic where the boss explains that they can either increase profits by increasing sales or cutting costs, and they've decided to cut costs. This continues until costs are cut to zero, at which point sales are also zero. It's a joke because it illustrates that while trimming the fat is good, just outright cutting costs in a way that cuts sales is counter-productive. It leads to simply having to cut costs more next year too because your sales are down, thus your costs are still too high for that level of sales.


Great point, AZGolf. It's akin to shorting stocks vs. buying and holding. You can make money in the short-run shorting, but the stock (costs) can only go so low, to $0. Whereas your sales (stock purchased) has no obvious limit on the upswing. You trim costs prudently as your sales increase and reinvest. That's how winnin's done!

Another knee-jerk reaction to a long-term problem.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Air and water do mix said:


> I'm obviously not 'in' with Bugatti, but I believe the answer is "yes" for both!
> 
> At least that's what I read on the internet, so it must be true, right?


http://www.businessinsider.com/bugatti-may-lose-6-million-per-veyron-2013-10

Simple maths; Development cost is said to be $1.62 billion. They sold 450 units. Each unit has $3.6 million in development costs assigned to it. They lose $6.24 million per vehicle. So the loss in production cost is approximately $2.64 billion. If they sell the vehicle for $1.5 million, then the production cost must be $4.14 million. 

Costs:
$4.14 production
$3.60 development
----------
$7.74 total
$1.50 selling
----------
$6.24 loss


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> Then there's gems like this in the article:
> 
> "Volkswagen could put a push to gain market share in the North America on hold as long as there’s no clarity on the extent of the costs of fixing the cars and potential fines, said Jose Asumendi, a London-based analyst at JPMorgan Chase & Co. The carmaker outlined plans in March for an investment of about $1 billion to expand its vehicle assembly plant in Mexico’s Puebla state. That work could face a delay, Asumendi said."
> 
> This is like the old Dilbert comic where the boss explains that they can either increase profits by increasing sales or cutting costs, and they've decided to cut costs. This continues until costs are cut to zero, at which point sales are also zero. It's a joke because it illustrates that while trimming the fat is good, just outright cutting costs in a way that cuts sales is counter-productive. It leads to simply having to cut costs more next year too because your sales are down, thus your costs are still too high for that level of sales.


Ah. So they're trimming the meat, rather than just the fat. Got it.



TnTNYC said:


> Great point, AZGolf. It's akin to shorting stocks vs. buying and holding. You can make money in the short-run shorting, but the stock (costs) can only go so low, to $0. Whereas your sales (stock purchased) has no obvious limit on the upswing. You trim costs prudently as your sales increase and reinvest. That's how winnin's done!
> 
> *Another knee-jerk reaction to a long-term problem.*


Let's hope it's very short-term cutting.



spockcat said:


> http://www.businessinsider.com/bugatti-may-lose-6-million-per-veyron-2013-10
> 
> Simple maths; Development cost is said to be $1.62 billion. They sold 450 units. Each unit has $3.6 million in development costs assigned to it. They lose $6.24 million per vehicle. So the loss in production cost is approximately $2.64 billion. If they sell the vehicle for $1.5 million, then the production cost must be $4.14 million.
> 
> ...


Sometimes the math really is simple. I just didn't know the numbers to start with. Now _that's_ some fat to trim if the new one is anything close to the old one.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> First things that came to mind:
> - Axe the Phaeton
> - Sell off a brand or two
> - Substantially raise the price of the Chiron (I actually immediately thought to cancel it altogether and shutter Bugatti, but the model is nearly finished development, so why kill it?)


Because you don't consider sunk costs when deciding to continue on or kill the project. Only thing that matters today is how much more it will cost vs what they will bring in.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

jnm2.0t said:


> Because you don't consider sunk costs when deciding to continue on or kill the project. Only thing that matters today is how much more it will cost vs what they will bring in.


I have to think the R&D is completed on the LWB Tiguan by now. If that $1B investment in Mexico they're considering canceling is the building of the Tig, they've eliminated their last best hope of surviving in the US market. There's no room for mediocrity and 10 year old designs here.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> Then there's gems like this in the article:
> 
> "Volkswagen could put a push to gain market share in the North America on hold as long as there’s no clarity on the extent of the costs of fixing the cars and potential fines, said Jose Asumendi, a London-based analyst at JPMorgan Chase & Co. The carmaker outlined plans in March for an investment of about $1 billion to expand its vehicle assembly plant in Mexico’s Puebla state. That work could face a delay, Asumendi said."
> 
> This is like the old Dilbert comic where the boss explains that they can either increase profits by increasing sales or cutting costs, and they've decided to cut costs. This continues until costs are cut to zero, at which point sales are also zero. It's a joke because it illustrates that while trimming the fat is good, just outright cutting costs in a way that cuts sales is counter-productive. It leads to simply having to cut costs more next year too because your sales are down, thus your costs are still too high for that level of sales.


Just because an analyst says something doesn't make it fact. There are a LOT of "analysts" quoted in automotive related articles that don't seem to know very logical and basic things about this business. Could also be the person writing the article on a deadline not looking for the best sources of information as well. Either way...


----------



## Cadenza_7o (Jan 23, 2001)

DW news clip on VW and Wolfsburg...

[video]http://dw.com/p/1Gj7N[/video]


----------



## jannikt (Sep 25, 2015)

Here are a few estimates of how much this will cost VW:

Warburg Research estimates $35 billion
http://news.yahoo.com/volkswagen-costs-scandal-piling-043445744--finance.html

Credit Suisse says up to $87 billion.
http://money.cnn.com/2015/10/02/news/companies/volkswagen-scandal-bp-credit-suisse/

Personally I think it won't be as bad as Credit Suisse estimates, but $30 billion is quite realistic.

Although VW has $24 billion cash reserves, they need at least $10 billion free cash just to run day-to-day business. So VW is short $15-20 billion which they will have to raise by borrowing, selling assets or selling a couple of brands. Only Audi or Skoda are worth selling, Lamborghini, SEAT or Buggati are niche brands nowhere near worth that amount of money. They may be worth a billion or two, but won't close the hole in VW finances over the next couple of years.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

jannikt said:


> Here are a few estimates of how much this will cost VW:
> 
> Warburg Research estimates $35 billion
> http://news.yahoo.com/volkswagen-costs-scandal-piling-043445744--finance.html
> ...


Calm down Sergio, I don't think they've hit bottom yet. :laugh:


----------



## TangoRed (Sep 7, 2005)

classicjetta said:


> Calm down Sergio, I don't think they've hit bottom yet. :laugh:


:laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

Lets just say i wont be rushing off to the dealer tomorrow for whatever they announce unless its a buy back program


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

VW Considers Diesel Fixes Ranging From Upgrade to New Car:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-diesel-fixes-ranging-from-upgrade-to-new-car

RE: Costume joke, as I said, don't care, no black smoke so the joke is wrong!
I know it's a joke, technically incorrect joke, but wrong none the less.

RE: Car plugged in to outlet. I said It was a JAB, so you can get
damaged all you want, THAT is a joke...


----------



## Ryukein (Dec 10, 2006)

Official press release from VW:



> MATTHIAS MÜLLER: "WE WILL OVERCOME THIS CRISIS"
> 
> Group CEO addresses Wolfsburg employees at works meeting
> Müller announces swift and relentless clarification of emissions scandal
> ...


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

PowerslavePA said:


> *A) *RE: Costume joke, as I said, don't care, no black smoke so the joke is wrong!
> I know it's a joke, technically incorrect joke, but wrong none the less.
> 
> *B)*RE: Car plugged in to outlet. I said It was a JAB, so you can get
> damaged all you want, THAT is a joke...


Get your irony here, folks! Fresh off the stove!

In Exhibit A) we see this guy getting mad at a _technically incorrect_ joke. In Exhibit B) we see the same guy getting mad at people for getting mad at a _technically incorrect_ joke. And he doesn't even know that he's mad at people for being mad at the things he's mad at. 

Oy vey.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Smigelski said:


> Get your irony here, folks! Fresh off the stove!
> 
> In *Xzibit* A) we see this guy getting mad at a _technically incorrect_ joke. In *Xzibit* B) we see the same guy getting mad at people for getting mad at a _technically incorrect_ joke. And he doesn't even know that he's mad at people for being mad at the things he's mad at.
> 
> Oy vey.


ftfy.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

*EDIT EDIT EDIT: Prices listed on their site INCLUDE the $2K Loyalty Bonus.* I emailed them to verify. 

Anyone want a 2015 Jetta for $7500 off MSRP? Or a 2015 Passat for $8599 off MSRP? Suntrup VW in St. Louis has some insane deals right now if you combine their discounts with the $2000 loyalty bonus.

Are we going to see more of this:
http://www.suntrupvw.com/new/Volksw...St+Louis-c45a683c0a0a0002001c7a8181ebe805.htm

2015 Jetta S: *$10816*, was $18415
Discount: $7599
As far as I can tell this does NOT include the $2000 owner loyalty discount  *EDIT: The discount includes the $2k.*
Granted this is a leftover 2015, and yes, it's the 2.slow, but holy hell that's a low price! 


How about a 2015 Passat Limited Edition?
http://www.suntrupvw.com/new/Volksw...St+Louis-1f8effba0a0a00e0654ab7d0d5ea6948.htm

Original MSRP: $25135
Discount: $8599
Sale price: $16536


Even their 2016 models are heavily discounted at this dealership. They're offering 2016 GTIs for $3000 off MSRP. It's worth the price of a one-way ticket there.


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

> Müller pointed out that not all the facts were on the table yet. One conclusion, however, was already clear: "Volkswagen must once again stand for more integrity. Not just on paper. But anytime, anywhere. We will make every effort to make very sure that the rules are respected by everyone. This Group and its brands stand for sustainability, for responsibility, for credibility. At the moment, much of that seems to have been deeply shaken. But: together with you, I am determined to prove that our values remain our guide. And that Volkswagen, that each one of us, deserves the trust of people everywhere."


I'm starting to think VW is playing a long game here. If they know several other automakers have also been similarly cheating on emissions tests (and it's starting to look like that's the case), they could eventually be standing tall as the first company to publicly fess up.


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> Anyone want a 2015 Jetta for $9500 off MSRP? Or a 2015 Passat for $10599 off MSRP? Suntrup VW in St. Louis has some insane deals right now if you combine their discounts with the $2000 loyalty bonus.
> 
> Are we going to see more of this:
> http://www.suntrupvw.com/new/Volksw...St+Louis-c45a683c0a0a0002001c7a8181ebe805.htm
> ...


yep, we have some shopping planned this weekend... :laugh:


----------



## MonsterM (Aug 10, 2005)

^

Depreciation is going to hit these cars hard...really hard.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

improvius said:


> I'm starting to think VW is playing a long game here. If they know several other automakers have also been similarly cheating on emissions tests (and it's starting to look like that's the case), they could eventually be standing tall as the first company to publicly fess up.


if other automakers are hiding something similar, it's smart to let things draw out a bit. but i don't see them holding out months just to see who else might get caught.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Ryukein said:


> Official press release from VW:


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

GoHomeBroke said:


> if other automakers are hiding something similar, it's smart to let things draw out a bit. but i don't see them holding out months just to see who else might get caught.


Well, this hasn't even been out in the public for 3 weeks yet. I think there will be more shoes falling soon.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

improvius said:


> Well, this hasn't even been out in the public for 3 weeks yet. I think there will be more shoes falling soon.


Some study in Europe tested Fords, Mazdas, Mercedes and BMW and found them all to emit around 6x more NOx as well. VW actually polluted 35% less... This was in the Daily Mail though, so goodness knows if its real.


----------



## smetzger (Oct 21, 2004)

GoHomeBroke said:


> if other automakers are hiding something similar, it's smart to let things draw out a bit. but i don't see them holding out months just to see who else might get caught.


Remember VW voluntarily admitted to rigging the test.
They could have gone into full denial and demanded that the EPA submit proof.

I strongly suspect there was some behind the doors negotiation before VW admitted the wrong doing.


----------



## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

PowerslavePA said:


> VW Considers Diesel Fixes Ranging From Upgrade to New Car:
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-diesel-fixes-ranging-from-upgrade-to-new-car
> 
> ...


Saw this in the morning. 

How have buy backs worked in the past? Is there actually a possibility that they will be swapping a 2016 models for owners older 09 models? Would this apply to only new/ preowned purchased from a VW dealer? 

Curious about when proposed solutions will be announced.


----------



## Ark6 (Dec 14, 2007)

vbora01 said:


> Here ya go: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...employees-on-diesel-scandal-as-cost-cuts-loom


So I'm guessing no more Golf R400/420?


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

E CODE said:


> Some study in Europe tested Fords, Mazdas, Mercedes and BMW and found them all to emit around 6x more NOx as well. VW actually polluted 35% less... This was in the Daily Mail though, so goodness knows if its real.


link?


----------



## Doug Butabi (Oct 15, 2009)

E CODE said:


> Some study in Europe tested Fords, Mazdas, Mercedes and BMW and found them all to emit around 6x more NOx as well. VW actually polluted 35% less... *This was in the Daily Mail though*, so goodness knows if its real.


There's your answer. It's 1,000,000% incorrect.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> Anyone want a 2015 Jetta for $9500 off MSRP? Or a 2015 Passat for $10599 off MSRP? Suntrup VW in St. Louis has some insane deals right now if you combine their discounts with the $2000 loyalty bonus.
> 
> Are we going to see more of this:
> http://www.suntrupvw.com/new/Volksw...St+Louis-c45a683c0a0a0002001c7a8181ebe805.htm
> ...


I can put you up on the twin bed in the spare room. My dog is psychotic though. Fair warning. :laugh:


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> Anyone want a 2015 Jetta for $9500 off MSRP? Or a 2015 Passat for $10599 off MSRP? Suntrup VW in St. Louis has some insane deals right now if you combine their discounts with the $2000 loyalty bonus.


I'm not big on VW right now but if I could get $7000 off a 2016 Jetta with Driver Assistance I just might do it.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> link?


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...l-car-giants-break-toxic-emissions-limit.html 



Doug Butabi said:


> There's your answer. It's 1,000,000% incorrect.


Yep, I'd lean that way too.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Wow. I wonder how much I could get a manual Jetta Sport for...

Edit: Well, I found this..








.

It's a shame about the color, but for $19,981 I'd say we're getting there!


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> Anyone want a 2015 Jetta for $9500 off MSRP? Or a 2015 Passat for $10599 off MSRP? Suntrup VW in St. Louis has some insane deals right now if you combine their discounts with the $2000 loyalty bonus.


From ad:



> Click our "Check Price" button and submit your information to verify the price on the page and see if you qualify for additional discounts on any selected model today!


Something tells me that these prices won't be honored and this is mainly to drive traffic.


----------



## genjy (Aug 7, 2005)

smetzger said:


> Remember VW voluntarily admitted to rigging the test.
> They could have gone into full denial and demanded that the EPA submit proof.
> 
> I strongly suspect there was some behind the doors negotiation before VW admitted the wrong doing.


More likely it's just damage control. There was no denying that the defeat mode wasn't intentionally programmed in. 

VW cut their losses out of the gate so things wouldn't become even more scandalous.


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

spockcat said:


> Something tells me that these prices won't be honored and this is mainly to drive traffic.


Or "one at this price", sold to the person who saw the ad and showed up at the dealer just as they opened the door that day (I know someone who bought a "one at this price" car that way)?

However, back in early 2009, there was a local Ford dealer offering three 2009 Ford Fusions (base model, manual) for $11,988 each. Apparently, they didn't sell easily, because the ad with the same three cars kept showing up each week (and the on-line inventory search of that dealer showed the same three cars week after week). Remember, this was during the maximum doom and gloom feelings about the economy, and the fact that the cars had manual transmissions probably didn't help with the general market (as opposed to some here on TCL). It was also just before the 2010 refresh of the Fusion.


----------



## Galrot (Mar 23, 2009)

smetzger said:


> Remember VW voluntarily admitted to rigging the test.
> They could have gone into full denial and demanded that the EPA submit proof.
> 
> I strongly suspect there was some behind the doors negotiation before VW admitted the wrong doing.


Actually VW did go in full denial, said that EPA did not know what they where doing and demanded further proof. It's only after one year of doing that they admitted to rigging the test when they realized that they would otherwise not get their new TDI cars federalized.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

genjy said:


> More likely it's just damage control. There was no denying that the defeat mode wasn't intentionally programmed in.
> 
> VW cut their losses out of the gate so things wouldn't become even more scandalous.


Cut their losses? That should have happened a year ago when this was brought to their attention. Instead, they doubled down denying it, tried to sneak a software update recall through, and sold another year's worth of illegal TDIs. Right now I'd say losses are pretty open-ended.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

tjl said:


> Or "one at this price", sold to the person who saw the ad and showed up at the dealer just as they opened the door that day (I know someone who bought a "one at this price" car that way)?


Take a look at their new car inventory: ALL their cars are discounted.

There's one particular car that I'm *incredibly* tempted to call and put a deposit down on.


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> Take a look at their new car inventory: ALL their cars are discounted.
> 
> There's one particular car that I'm *incredibly* tempted to call and put a deposit down on.


must find west coast dealer doing something similar!!!

granted its the 2.0, but christ, 11k??

http://www.suntrupvw.com/new/Volksw...St+Louis-4c7388bf0a0a0065541b5d012ee68d64.htm


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

71DubBugBug said:


> Saw this in the morning.
> 
> How have buy backs worked in the past? Is there actually a possibility that they will be swapping a 2016 models for owners older 09 models? Would this apply to only new/ preowned purchased from a VW dealer?
> 
> Curious about when proposed solutions will be announced.


In the end, buy backs never favor the consumer. You never get any
real equity into the car to actually come out on top. At most, you
break even, or lose, especially if you have 127K on the clock like I
do. I have NEGATIVE equity in my 2013 TDi, with that many miles on it.
You get MARKET value, and with that many miles, I would be lucky
to get 10 grand, still owing 18K on it. I got it a year ago now, and
put too many miles on it to get anything out of it.

I got mine preowned with 23K on it, September 2014. I got
a little over $1250 off for loyalty at the dealer. There is no
way I come out on top with any buy-back or incentives. So,
I keep it, and stave off the recall as long as I can.

Plus, even if they reimburse you for the fuel costs you'll suffer
-vs- sticker for your loan term, I AVERAGE 495 miles a day, you
think they're going to pay me that difference? No way...


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> *EDIT EDIT EDIT: Prices listed on their site INCLUDE the $2K Loyalty Bonus.* I emailed them to verify.
> 
> Anyone want a 2015 Jetta for $7500 off MSRP? Or a 2015 Passat for $8599 off MSRP? Suntrup VW in St. Louis has some insane deals right now if you combine their discounts with the $2000 loyalty bonus.
> 
> ...


*CLARIFICATION
*
I emailed the dealership: the discounted prices include the $2000 Loyalty Bonus. They stated the to qualify for the bonus you must have a 2001 or newer VW in your household.


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> *CLARIFICATION
> *
> I emailed the dealership: the discounted prices include the $2000 Loyalty Bonus. They stated the to qualify for the bonus you must have a 2001 or newer VW in your household.


doh. not as appealing now.

im still hoping the repaired TDis start showing up with some insane deals.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

PowerslavePA said:


> In the end, buy backs never favor the consumer. You never get any
> real equity into the car to actually come out on top. At most, you
> break even, or lose, especially if you have 127K on the clock like I
> do. I have NEGATIVE equity in my 2013 TDi, with that many miles on it.
> ...


What about someone like me with a 2013 JSW TDI. I "only" have 33,000 miles on mine and owe roughly $16,000. Seems like I'd fair a bit better.


----------



## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

Mazda 3s said:


> What about someone like me with a 2013 JSW TDI. I "only" have 33,000 miles on mine and owe roughly $16,000. Seems like I'd fair a bit better.


PowerslavePA, wont that be like pouring gasoline into the class action lawsuit fire? 

From what I understood based not he news report, is that the buy back is only where they cant retrofit the engines to meet emissions. Im guessing this wont be a voluntary buy back, the feds might be forcing you to turn it in? 

So from a money standpoint, the only difference between trade in and buy back is that the first, you are getting another VW?


----------



## Jimmy Russells (Feb 4, 2007)

PowerslavePA said:


> I AVERAGE 495 miles a day,


You what now?

:what:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> Take a look at their new car inventory: ALL their cars are discounted.
> 
> There's one particular car that I'm *incredibly* tempted to call and put a deposit down on.


Sorry, no discount on their Golf R.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

If VW flounders enough, prices could drop low enough that I could see myself getting into a new Volkswagen as a second car.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

GoHomePossum said:


> If VW flounders enough, prices could drop low enough that I could see myself getting into a new Volkswagen as a second car.


fingers crossed for those '15 jettas to hit beretta prices!


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> fingers crossed for those '15 jettas to hit beretta prices!


Nah, I'd want a Golf Sportwagen - its the only thing that could come close to the 1989 Chevy Celebrity Wagon I would otherwise buy.


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

Hypothetical question(s): So... If other manufacturers start coming out of the woodwork as doing the same, what do you think the outcome is?

Do people start accusing the regulatory body (EPA) or continue to blame manufacturers? Or both? On one side of the coin, you have an agency that is supposed to enforce the standard, while the other side follows. If multiple manufacturers are involved, who do you go after at that point?

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

vbora01 said:


> On one side of the coin, you have an agency that is supposed to enforce the standard


Enforce is such a broad term.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

vbora01 said:


> Hypothetical question(s): So... If other manufacturers start coming out of the woodwork as doing the same, what do you think the outcome is?
> 
> Do people start accusing the regulatory body (EPA) or continue to blame manufacturers? Or both? On one side of the coin, you have an agency that is supposed to enforce the standard, while the other side follows. If multiple manufacturers are involved, who do you go after at that point?
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


Hypothetically... Governments get rich and car companies dont  The overall purchase price on cars may dip for a bit. 

The thing is, VW did it on purpose, why not make them pay? In California, Smog Test places don't put you on the sniffer for diesels, which everyone knows that CA is one of the more difficult states on emissions and other ****, so why would other states be different? No sniffer, why not try and get away with it, <insert but what about the environment comment here>.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

phil123 said:


> No sniffer, why not try and get away with it


35-54 second mark sums it up :laugh:


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

vbora01 said:


> Hypothetical question(s): So... If other manufacturers start coming out of the woodwork as doing the same, what do you think the outcome is?
> 
> Do people start accusing the regulatory body (EPA) or continue to blame manufacturers? Or both? On one side of the coin, you have an agency that is supposed to enforce the standard, while the other side follows. If multiple manufacturers are involved, who do you go after at that point?
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


EPA has been working on this for a year trying to get VW to explain what's going on. I would _think _that as a matter of course they have at least looked at other diesels to assure themselves that they are not crazy. Remember, this only came 'out of the blue' for us the public... the back and forth has been going on for a while. Of course like everything else in this thread, it's speculation, but I would find it hard to believe that there hasn't been a crosscheck of other manufacturers.


----------



## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

btitus said:


> EPA has been working on this for a year trying to get VW to explain what's going on. I would _think _that as a matter of course they have at least looked at other diesels to assure themselves that they are not crazy. Remember, this only came 'out of the blue' for us the public... the back and forth has been going on for a while. Of course like everything else in this thread, it's speculation, but I would find it hard to believe that there hasn't been a crosscheck of other manufacturers.


This is what I still cant wrap my head around? Lets say roughly one year ago,the EPA contacts VW, and starts asking questions. Does VW not have the equipment that can test emissions while driving around? 
Knowing that someone was on to them, wouldn't it have been in their best interest to start figuring out how things will be fixed? I know the pubic is usually the last to find out about anything, but one would expect with the RandD budget VW has that they cold have come up with a solution in that year. 

Were they expecting the EPA to just go away? Especially with the Urea equipped ea288 engines, if as they claim, the engines do not need it, why ship the vehicles with the code, knowing the EPA is looking into them. 

However, the EPA has been criticized heavily recently, and they are purchasing or borrowing peoples diesel vehicles, I think a news report mentioned 28 different models, both german and domestic, avoiding getting them from the manufacturer, and will be running tests

Speaking of sniff tests, here in Illinois, our 07 e320 bluetec never has to go in for emissions testing


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

Wow, VW's recall in Europe will start in *January 2016* and they promise to be done by the *end of 2016*. Let the wait begin...

The CEO is also stating that just a few at VW were responsible for the cheat device 

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/un...ill-rueckruf-im-januar-starten-a-1056528.html


----------



## bzcat (Nov 26, 2001)

VW offers current owners $2,000 loyalty rebate towards a new gasoline or hybrid VWs: http://www.hybridcars.com/volkswagen-is-offering-2000-incentive-for-diesel-and-hybrid-customers/

No eGolf for your loyalty :laugh:



> Volkswagen is hoping to prevent possible owner defections in wake of its diesel scandal by offering a $2,000 customer loyalty incentive this month.
> 
> Existing Volkswagen owners can receive $2,000 toward the purchase or lease of any new gasoline or hybrid Volkswagen model and the offer can be combined with any other offer, except for dealer employee participation or fleet programs. The company will also continue its September incentive programs that included huge dealer-cash bonuses of $2,000 to $2,750 for gasoline Passat sedans, $2,250 for gasoline Jetta sedans and $4,000 for the Touareg, CC and Eos convertible.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

bzcat said:


> VW offers current owners $2,000 loyalty rebate towards a new gasoline or hybrid VWs: http://www.hybridcars.com/volkswagen-is-offering-2000-incentive-for-diesel-and-hybrid-customers/
> 
> *No eGolf for your loyalty :laugh:*


Not true:

http://www.vw.com/special-offers/



> Returning Volkswagen owners may be eligible for a $2,000* Owner Loyalty Bonus toward the purchase or lease of a new, 2015 or 2016 Jetta model. Gas models only. *Excludes Hybrid models*.
> 
> *For an individual or immediate family member residing at the same address as the individual (proof of residency required) who currently owns a Volkswagen vehicle (proof of ownership/registration is required). Limit one incentive per eligible VIN. Volkswagen of America, Inc. will pay a $2,000 Owner Loyalty Bonus toward the lease or purchase of a new, unused 2015 or 2016 Jetta, Passat, CC, Beetle, Beetle Convertible, Eos, Golf, Golf GTI, Golf R, *e-Golf*, Golf SportWagen, Tiguan, Touareg, and Touareg TDI. Excludes all other TDI® Clean Diesel models. No trade-in required. Offer is non-transferable. Loyalty Offer Bonus must be applied toward customer lease or purchase and is not redeemable for cash. Incentive paid to dealer and requires dealer participation. May not be combined with Volkswagen Fleet Incentives, Conquest, other Loyalty, or Dealership Employee Programs. Corporations, companies, businesses, and dealerships are not eligible. Fleet leasing, fleet management or dealer-affiliated fleet companies are not eligible. Offer ends November 2, 2015. See your local Volkswagen dealer for financing details or, for general product information, call 1-800-374-8389. © 2015 Volkswagen of America, Inc.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

71DubBugBug said:


> This is what I still cant wrap my head around? Lets say roughly one year ago,the EPA contacts VW, and starts asking questions. Does VW not have the equipment that can test emissions while driving around?


It is inconceivable that VW, at worst, could not acquire or build such equipment very quickly. A few weeks, tops.



71DubBugBug said:


> Knowing that someone was on to them, wouldn't it have been in their best interest to start figuring out how things will be fixed?


I've read nothing to suggest that VW purposefully decided not to try and develop potential fixes for this issue. That they haven't yet formally announced a plan to apply those fixes does not mean they haven't developed lots of potential fixes, depending on the degree of pressure.



71DubBugBug said:


> Were they expecting the EPA to just go away? Especially with the Urea equipped ea288 engines, if as they claim, the engines do not need it, why ship the vehicles with the code, knowing the EPA is looking into them.


I suspect there was a great deal of denial at VW, at least for the EA288 engines. I think VW expects the EPA to approve a software update, and to take its chances with its existing customers whose existing EA288 engines would be gimped with that software.

My hope is that VW will achieve far greater environmental improvement by spending its remediation money not on fixing their engines, but by fixing other, worse air pollution problems.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

vbora01 said:


> Hypothetical question(s): So... If other manufacturers start coming out of the woodwork as doing the same, what do you think the outcome is?
> 
> Do people start accusing the regulatory body (EPA) or continue to blame manufacturers? Or both? On one side of the coin, you have an agency that is supposed to enforce the standard, while the other side follows. If multiple manufacturers are involved, who do you go after at that point?
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


Regulations are created for the betterment of the whole. Anybody else caught doing similar needs to answer to the rules and make right. Period. 

Those regulations are not created in some vacuum of EPA closets. There is lobbying by AAMA and other Mfrs. There are compromises made. IIRC VW bitched about how unfair it was to them. They acted like their home market doesn't come with some semblance of protectionism, which is silly.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Anyone getting the postcards from the class action lawyers yet?

Seen the TV ads?


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Numbersix said:


> Anyone getting the postcards from the class action lawyers yet?
> 
> Seen the TV ads?


I saw my first ambulance chaser TV ad last night.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

Numbersix said:


> Anyone getting the postcards from the class action lawyers yet?
> 
> Seen the TV ads?


Received my postcard two days ago and recycled it


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Numbersix said:


> Anyone getting the postcards from the class action lawyers yet?
> 
> Seen the TV ads?


The TV ads are starting to hit fairly hard. Not that I thought it would take very long, of course.


----------



## grounded87 (Nov 5, 2002)

Sounds like recalls in Europe will start in January. No word of buyback. 

No technical details released yet that I've seen on what the recall will actually be though. 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/07/us-volkswagen-emissions-mueller-idUSKCN0S02XH20151007

I know their deadline for their plan in Europe was to announce by today (October 7th), so I imagine those details should start to trickle out soon. 

That said, it sounds like we'll be waiting awhile to see what happens here in the US:

"For the U.S. market, a company spokeswoman said later, the remedy will first have to be agreed upon with Environmental Protection Agency, but she offered no timing for that."


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

smetzger said:


> Remember VW voluntarily admitted to rigging the test.
> They could have gone into full denial and demanded that the EPA submit proof.
> 
> I strongly suspect there was some behind the doors negotiation before VW admitted the wrong doing.


But usually, a deal is made beforehand so that a company doesn't have to admit wrongdoing. I'm really surprised VW fessed up.

When Honda and Ford got caught back in the '90s they never admitted any wrongdoing. They both said that they made a technical error but never on purpose - despite designing systems to purposely circumvent EPA rules.


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

In our small office of ~20 employees there are 7 of these affected diesels. These guys who started out thinking it wasn't that big of a deal are getting seriously pissed off at VW giving them absolutely no information and absolutely no outreach at all after all this time. They expected to hear something today. Included in whatever they hear they want to know what their options are for getting rid of the car. VW needs to announce the proposed solution AND, if it is going to take a year to fully implement, offer a fair trade-in/buy-back solution for those who want or need to get out of the car in the short-term. Right now owners are stuck with a car they cannot sell. VW is going to get hit with huge lawsuits from that aspect alone if they don't announce something in the next few days.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

zhenya00 said:


> In our small office of ~20 employees there are 7 of these affected diesels. These guys who started out thinking it wasn't that big of a deal are getting seriously pissed off at VW giving them absolutely no information and absolutely no outreach at all after all this time. They expected to hear something today. Included in whatever they hear they want to know what their options are for getting rid of the car. VW needs to announce the proposed solution AND, if it is going to take a year to fully implement, offer a fair trade-in/buy-back solution for those who want or need to get out of the car in the short-term. Right now owners are stuck with a car they cannot sell. VW is going to get hit with huge lawsuits from that aspect alone if they don't announce something in the next few days.


Why do they want to get rid of their cars now? Have they suddenly become undriveable? Why the panic?


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

Hajduk said:


> Why do they want to get rid of their cars now? Have they suddenly become undriveable? Why the panic?


I'm not saying these guys in particular do, but it's emblematic of the problem as a whole and how VW is handling it. And out of the 500,000 or so cars registered in this country, there are certainly some number of people who are legitimately affected by the inability to sell their vehicle. It's $20,000 or so of liquidity that is locked up at the moment.


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

Hajduk said:


> Why do they want to get rid of their cars now? Have they suddenly become undriveable? Why the panic?


Yeah, what a bunch of ninnies--it's almost like we live in a free society where people concern themselves with maximizing their own personal utility and enjoyment!


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Ross1013 said:


> Yeah, what a bunch of ninnies--it's almost like we live in a free society where people concern themselves with maximizing their own personal utility and enjoyment!



Ninny was the word I was looking for. Thanks.


----------



## Maroon (Apr 10, 2014)

Ross1013 said:


> Yeah, what a bunch of ninnies--it's almost like we live in a free society where people concern themselves with maximizing their own personal utility and enjoyment!


Yep, dumbasses will be dumbasses. It's the American way.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

zhenya00 said:


> IThey expected to hear something today. Included in whatever they hear they want to know what their options are for getting rid of the car. VW needs to announce the proposed solution AND, if it is going to take a year to fully implement, offer a fair trade-in/buy-back solution for those who want or need to get out of the car in the short-term.


vw's just finding the right time to break it to them that they wont have any trunk space left after they install that 10 gallon urea tank in the trunk.
oh and that mileage you used to get... yeah... about that..


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

Maroon said:


> Yep, dumbasses will be dumbasses. It's the American way.


Are you sure you were reading the sarcasm in my post correctly? I think that owners being concerned about the issue and just wanting out is perfectly reasonable. Depreciation is a fact of life, but a car is still an asset and it's a frightening thought to know that your asset could potentially be worthless. Yeah, no one should ever finance a car...but plenty of people do and like the other guy said, if you still owe $20K+ on a late-model car that is plummeting in value...

If you're a fan of the brand and plan on hanging on through whatever comes, great. But for the A-to-B crowd, resale value is important.



Hajduk said:


> Ninny was the word I was looking for. Thanks.


No prob, but I wouldn't assume those people are ninnies without talking to them first.


----------



## Cadenza_7o (Jan 23, 2001)

*Piech is back???*

Could it be??? 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/at-volkswagen-a-familiar-figure-returns-1444064101


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

^would make a lot of sense...


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Yeah, who could miss something in 127 pages? Certainly not me. I remember every point made by every poster in here.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Air and water do mix said:


> Yeah, who could miss something in 127 pages? Certainly not me. I remember every point made by every poster in here.


Might need its own thread.


----------



## Quinn1.8t (Oct 8, 2006)

Air and water do mix said:


> Yeah, who could miss something in 127 pages? Certainly not me. I remember every point made by every poster in here.


3,000+ posts


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

Cadenza_7o said:


> Could it be???
> 
> http://www.wsj.com/articles/at-volkswagen-a-familiar-figure-returns-1444064101


Piech wins again. Incredible, but I shouldn't be that surprised.


----------



## Double-V (Mar 20, 2001)

classicjetta said:


> Piech wins again. Incredible, but I shouldn't be that surprised.


And yet this debacle began under his watch. It's remarkable.


----------



## GruuvenNorth (Dec 13, 2006)

Cadenza_7o said:


> Could it be???
> 
> http://www.wsj.com/articles/at-volkswagen-a-familiar-figure-returns-1444064101


Duuude...where's the snack tray


----------



## TnTNYC (Aug 1, 2012)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> *CLARIFICATION
> *
> I emailed the dealership: the discounted prices include the $2000 Loyalty Bonus. They stated the to qualify for the bonus you must have a 2001 or newer VW in your household.


Don't think I saw this posted, but does the Loyalty Discount apply to Audi vehicles as well? That's a part of the VW group, and those TDi's are affected as well, right?

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

zhenya00 said:


> Right now owners are stuck with a car they cannot sell.


In the US, cars with the offending systems can be sold, just not for the same price they would've gone for a month ago.


----------



## gonzo08452 (Apr 17, 2006)

Audi, The Truth In Engineering !!!

Crap!


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Mazda 3s said:


> What about someone like me with a 2013 JSW TDI. I "only" have 33,000 miles on mine and owe roughly $16,000. Seems like I'd fair a bit better.


Only the dealer, and VW knows. 

VW to angry owners: Want cash to buy another one? 
The company unveiled an Owner Loyalty Bonus program this week, with no fanfare, offering current VW owners a $2,000 incentive on purchases of new, presumably non-polluting vehicles.

Yeah, that helps... Haven't seen any news on the deadline for today, for the fix.



71DubBugBug said:


> PowerslavePA, wont that be like pouring gasoline into the class action lawsuit fire?
> 
> From what I understood based not he news report, is that the buy back is only where they cant retrofit the engines to meet emissions. Im guessing this wont be a voluntary buy back, the feds might be forcing you to turn it in?
> 
> So from a money standpoint, the only difference between trade in and buy back is that the first, you are getting another VW?


1. Class action lawsuits are STUPID, and only pays lawyers, while the people get; the settlement - lawyer fees, divided by # of people, that = STUPID, and horrible math.

2. Buy back would be only for something they cannot fix, yes. I will do absolutely NOTHING unless I am forced to.

3. I already have 2 Jettas, "S" and TDI, both 2013, and no, I would get a Cruze Diesel to replace my TDI if I had to.
While, I really don't care about the entire situation, I just would not buy another one. IF they GAVE me one, sure,
but won't buy another one. Mostly because I want a Challenger, or will wait for the Barracuda. I have an '07 Charger,
bored with it, even with all the mods. 



ThreadBomber said:


> You what now?
> 
> :what:


Yep, that's four days a week, SUN-WED; courier, about 2000 miles a week.
Oil change every 5 weeks, just extended miles to 12000 -vs- 10000 to make it every six, was told safe.
Front tires very 3 months, then all four every six.
2 DSG services, extended that to every 70K miles.
Currently just over 127K miles, 128K by tomorrow.

I buy ten oil filters at a time; $70.00 for ten, shipped.


All and all, as I said, I really don't care VW lied, so what, you have to see the
entire world, not just one company. I won't take it in for the recall unless PA
says they won't register it, or will revoke current registration. Since PA does not
have emissions laws on diesels, I may not have to. I go about my daily life
like nothing even happened, because I don't care. My own government 
steals from us every day, so some emissions cheating doesn't even show up
on my screens. Won't participate in any law suits, and won't accept any money
from them either; I don't care. The only people who REALLY care are
environMETALists, and other tree-huger organizations, especially if any card
carrying member OWNS one. 

If governments would take the same stance on, say, ISIS, they'd be dead
by October 8th. Resources go to the wrong places, we got people dying all
over the globe, but lets bash the crap out of an emissions cheat, as ISIS
cuts off another human head. THIS is why, I don't give a flying fa, yeah,
that, about this situation. They can kill a company on paper, but can't
wipe out a terrorist organization, so lets take the easy route, AND earn some
cash along the way. Sickening.


----------



## intercedeGLI (Sep 8, 2002)

Double-V said:


> And yet this debacle began under his watch. It's remarkable.


I'm not at all familiar with, or up to speed on, the relationships betweeen VW, Audi, Porsche, VW AG, and the various advisory boards. 

As far as I know, Winterkorn succeeded Piëch in April of 2015. How is this whole debacle not equal parts Piëch and Winterkorn? Has Piëch just not made the news enough for the people to associate him with the scandal?


----------



## TropicOrange (May 6, 2001)

We have owned a 2009 TDI for over 2 years. What a mess VW has gotten themselves into. Until VW fixes the problem and compensates us fully for the loss of resale value of our car, loss of fuel efficiency/power after the fix and then on top of that compensates us for being duped into thinking we are driving a green car all the while we pollute at such high level I could not care less for their $2k discount on a new car, they can stick their cars, no more VW for us.


----------



## Chmeeee (Jun 24, 2002)

PowerslavePA said:


> The only people who REALLY care are
> environMETALists, and other tree-huger organizations, especially if any card
> carrying member OWNS one.


Yeah man, the environment is STUPID.



PowerslavePA said:


> If governments would take the same stance on, say, ISIS, they'd be dead
> by October 8th. Resources go to the wrong places, we got people dying all
> over the globe, but lets bash the crap out of an emissions cheat, as ISIS
> cuts off another human head.


Uh huh. The US Military budget is 77x that of the EPA. Homeland Security is 5x EPA. Keep digging.


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)

Environmetalist tree-hugers. They're the worst...with their giant metal trees and all.


----------



## sirswank! (Oct 3, 2013)

so, 127 pages of merged threads... good luck finding any actual information at this point.


----------



## NoDubJustYet (Mar 25, 2002)

So... say there's a software fix that's inline with what the EPA and CARB want - and it results in decreased performance and mileage.


What happens when you go to your local APR dealer?
http://www.goapr.com/products/ecu_upgrade_20tdi.html


No jokes about jets or race teams, please.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Chmeeee said:


> Uh huh. The US Military budget is 77x that of the EPA. Homeland Security is 5x EPA. Keep digging.


and look how quickly things are going on that smaller budget. his point was that this has become a bigger issue when it presents a significantly smaller threat.


----------



## Galrot (Mar 23, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> and look how quickly things are going on that smaller budget. his point was that this has become a bigger issue when it presents a significantly smaller threat.


Could it perhaps have something to do with the fact that ISIS would take EPAs angry e-mails even less serious than what VW have done?


----------



## Chmeeee (Jun 24, 2002)

GoHomeBroke said:


> significantly smaller threat.


I would disagree. NOx kills far more Americans annually than ISIS.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

Breaking news: VW withdraws EPA application for 2016 TDIs.

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...n-for-2016-diesels?cciid=email-autonews-blast



> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen of America has withdrawn its application for EPA certification that its 2016 model year diesel vehicles comply with U.S. emissions standards.
> 
> Without EPA certification, the cars can’t be sold, which means there could be a longer-than-expected wait for the diesel models. VW had been awaiting EPA approval for the 2016 diesels, but withdrew its request as part of its ongoing discussions with U.S. regulators in the wake of its emissions scandal.
> 
> ...


I think we can safely say TDI is likely dead in this country now.


----------



## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

Maximum_Download said:


> Breaking news: VW withdraws EPA application for 2016 TDIs.
> 
> http://www.autonews.com/article/201...n-for-2016-diesels?cciid=email-autonews-blast
> 
> ...


isn't it better for them to withdraw now, come up with a proper fix, and get it certified, than to have it fail?


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Maximum_Download said:


> Breaking news: VW withdraws EPA application for 2016 TDIs.
> 
> http://www.autonews.com/article/201...n-for-2016-diesels?cciid=email-autonews-blast


This strikes me as a delaying tactic. I expect that the EPA told VW it wouldn't consider the 2016 application until EPA and VW strike a deal on what to do with the existing affected models already polluting our air.

VW likely realized that the EPA wasn't yet ready to allow the 2016 models to hit the market with just an unproven software fix. So VW withdrew the application, knowing it'd have to be changed to be approved.

I think it remains to be seen what becomes of VW's diesel efforts in the US. Does seem that VW probably would be smart to market them as something other than "TDI".


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)




----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Double-V said:


> And yet this debacle began under his watch. It's remarkable.


It's proof that they aren't really serious about making substantive culture or infrastructure change.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

71DubBugBug said:


> isn't it better for them to withdraw now, come up with a proper fix, and get it certified, than to have it fail?


In a year it won't matter, properly fixed or not - it's gonna be like the GM diesel, the PR damage will make it an untouchable.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Chilcoot said:


> This strikes me as a delaying tactic. I expect that the EPA told VW it wouldn't consider the 2016 application until EPA and VW strike a deal on what to do with the existing affected models already polluting our air.
> 
> VW likely realized that the EPA wasn't yet ready to allow the 2016 models to hit the market with just an unproven software fix. So VW withdrew the application, knowing it'd have to be changed to be approved.



I think that this is both a delaying tactic, and probably smart advice from whatever crisis management consulting firm they have hired to help them navigate this disaster.

Prove to everyone that they won't try to sell any more TDI's (which, even if they had EPA approval for US sale, they'd be unable to sell with the current scandal hanging over them anyway) until all TDI's meet emissions standards.

I wonder what this means for dealers that have already accepted TDI's into inventory? I assume any customers that had cars in shipment will just get a refund with a hearty, ". . .but we still sell the fuel-efficient 1.8T model!"


----------



## flubber (Sep 12, 2005)

71DubBugBug said:


> isn't it better for them to withdraw now, come up with a proper fix, and get it certified, than to have it fail?





Chilcoot said:


> This strikes me as a delaying tactic. I expect that the EPA told VW it wouldn't consider the 2016 application until EPA and VW strike a deal on what to do with the existing affected models already polluting our air.


This isn't how I read the news above at all. I think the key is this section:



> In his testimony, Horn said part of VW’s emissions control strategy included a “software feature” that should be “disclosed to and approved by” regulators as an “auxiliary emissions control device,” which are legal under U.S. emissions rules.
> 
> It’s unclear what that software feature does, exactly, but a Volkswagen of America spokeswoman said it is different from the software classified as a “defeat device” by regulators that activated full emissions controls only in lab tests while deactivating the controls on the road.


I think this means VW has to resubmit the certification with this feature called out (needs to be "disclosed to and approved by regulators"). It doesn't indicate that they're going to have to change anything about the car or the emissions controls, unless the regulators don't approve.

What it does probably indicate is that EPA is going over the emissions systems of the 2016 models with a fine-toothed comb.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

flubber said:


> What it does probably indicate is that EPA is going over the emissions systems of the 2016 models with a fine-toothed comb.


If they were confident in their ability to do so and hit internal durability and output metrics, they'd have continued with the process. Emissions certification applications are expensive as hell; they wouldn't cut and run unless they had to.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

Curious how this will play out. For example whenever this get's sorted out will there just a short 2016 Passat run, as the new 2017 refresh won't match the delayed diesels currently sitting waiting for delivery to dealers.

Same with the Jetta. I'm sure there will be model changes that would mean the frozen diesel models would not match the rest of the lineup.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

Some of you need to listen to Turbio very carefully here, considering his professional background and connections.

Just saying. This is not a good sign.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

I would say that there is a 50/50 chance that VW did not disclose ANY "auxiliary emission control device" originally, having (quite probably) failed to understand (intentionally or otherwise) fully what the meaning of that phrase is, and is now disclosing anything and everything that causes the emission control system to alter its strategy. If that's the case then they are backtracking and going through the software to identify ALL such strategies in an abundance of caution and conservatism. (By the way, it's normal for gasoline engines to run in open-loop during cold start and at full throttle acceleration and momentarily during abrupt changes in engine load. Those are presumably the types of logic that the EPA could consider to be an "auxiliary emission control device". If this is the case then hopefully they will resubmit after that process is complete.

The other 50% chance is that VW has realized that the TDI as produced cannot meet the specified emission limits in real world driving and requires re-engineering (other manufacturers are meeting the standards, notably the BMW that West Virginia tested in real world conditions, so it is technically possible somehow). Whether this means TDI is done for good, remains to be seen.

Fixing this mess is going to take a long time.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

71DubBugBug said:


> isn't it better for them to withdraw now, come up with a proper fix, and get it certified, than to have it fail?


yes.

but. that doesnt mean that diesel cars wont be dead in the US.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

GoFaster said:


> I would say that there is a 50/50 chance that VW did not disclose ANY "auxiliary emission control device" originally, having (quite probably) failed to understand (intentionally or otherwise) fully what the meaning of that phrase is, and is now disclosing anything and everything that causes the emission control system to alter its strategy. If that's the case then they are backtracking and going through the software to identify ALL such strategies in an abundance of caution and conservatism. (By the way, it's normal for gasoline engines to run in open-loop during cold start and at full throttle acceleration and momentarily during abrupt changes in engine load. Those are presumably the types of logic that the EPA could consider to be an "auxiliary emission control device". If this is the case then hopefully they will resubmit after that process is complete.
> 
> The other 50% chance is that VW has realized that the TDI as produced cannot meet the specified emission limits in real world driving and requires re-engineering (other manufacturers are meeting the standards, notably the BMW that West Virginia tested in real world conditions, so it is technically possible somehow). *Whether this means TDI is done for good, remains to be seen.*
> 
> Fixing this mess is going to take a long time.


In there court of public appeal, TDI's are guilty. Of course there are the loyalists but they will be diminished and while diesels have been gaining newcomers, that will now end.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

GoFaster said:


> I would say that there is a 50/50 chance that VW did not disclose ANY "auxiliary emission control device" originally, having (quite probably) failed to understand (intentionally or otherwise) fully what the meaning of that phrase is, and is now disclosing anything and everything that causes the emission control system to alter its strategy. If that's the case then they are backtracking and going through the software to identify ALL such strategies in an abundance of caution and conservatism. (By the way, it's normal for gasoline engines to run in open-loop during cold start and at full throttle acceleration and momentarily during abrupt changes in engine load. Those are presumably the types of logic that the EPA could consider to be an "auxiliary emission control device". If this is the case then hopefully they will resubmit after that process is complete.
> 
> The other 50% chance is that VW has realized that the TDI as produced cannot meet the specified emission limits in real world driving and requires re-engineering (other manufacturers are meeting the standards, notably the BMW that West Virginia tested in real world conditions, so it is technically possible somehow). Whether this means TDI is done for good, remains to be seen.
> 
> Fixing this mess is going to take a long time.


BMW can do it because they charge BMW money for their cars.

VW has far less padding in the price of a Jetta or Golf to absorb the added cost of engineering and fitting after treatment systems on the exhausts.

It's purely a cost question.

Barring some technological leap we are likely seeing the end of passenger car diesels in non-luxury vehicles.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Numbersix said:


> I think that this is both a delaying tactic, and probably smart advice from whatever crisis management consulting firm they have hired to help them navigate this disaster.


It's a significant enough expense to get certification that I really doubt VW would have cut and run just as a delaying tactic. If they're withdrawing, it's because there was doubt as to whether they could comply.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

DJMRDARK said:


> BMW can do it because they charge BMW money for their cars.
> 
> VW has far less padding in the price of a Jetta or Golf to absorb the added cost of engineering and fitting after treatment systems on the exhausts.
> 
> ...


Hammer, meet nailhead.


----------



## jannikt (Sep 25, 2015)

Maximum_Download said:


> Breaking news: VW withdraws EPA application for 2016 TDIs.
> 
> http://www.autonews.com/article/201...n-for-2016-diesels?cciid=email-autonews-blast
> 
> ...


This is highly significant and may be an indication that VW really does not have a technical solution to meet US standards. 2016 models use a different engine than 2009-2015 model and could mean that the new engine is not compliant with US norms either. Given that Euro6 standards are very similar to current US norms, this will certainly raise some eyebrows among European regulators.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Turbio! said:


> If they're withdrawing, it's because there was doubt as to whether they could comply.


Well, yeah, I'd be willing to guess they didn't fix the cheat for 2016 m.y. (it was working for them for a long while now, why not continue?) and since they don't have a remedy for the older models they probably don't have one for 2016 (not that they may discover an easy, cheap, one anyway :laugh: ).


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

jannikt said:


> 2016 models use a different engine than 2009-2015 model


I think the 2015 and 2016 Golf, Jetta, Passat, and Beetle TDIs all have the same diesel engine, the EA288.


----------



## srs5694 (Aug 19, 2014)

Chilcoot said:


> I think the 2015 and 2016 Golf, Jetta, Passat, and Beetle TDIs all have the same diesel engine, the EA288.


Yeah, I've got a 2015 Golf with the EA288 engine. I was holding out a tiny bit of hope that this model was listed in the recall because somebody at the EPA was making broad demands or because VW kept the cheat just to keep DEF consumption down; but if VW has withdrawn its application for approval of the same engine and emissions system in 2016 models, I'm not hopeful about what that means for my own car.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

srs5694 said:


> Yeah, I've got a 2015 Golf with the EA288 engine. I was holding out a tiny bit of hope that this model was listed in the recall because somebody at the EPA was making broad demands or because VW kept the cheat just to keep DEF consumption down; but if VW has withdrawn its application for approval of the same engine and emissions system in 2016 models, I'm not hopeful about what that means for my own car.


The EA288 engine has the urea tank, hence your fix will be easier. For the 2016 models, they have most likely withdrawn since they will be overwhelmed with fixing about 10 million diesel cars worldwide.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Turbio! said:


> It's a significant enough expense to get certification that I really doubt VW would have cut and run just as a delaying tactic. If they're withdrawing, it's because there was doubt as to whether they could comply.


If VW is stating the same cars fully comply with Euro6, then they should comply here too.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

Numbersix said:


> If VW is stating the same cars fully comply with Euro6, then they should comply here too.


Maybe they just think that VW diesel sales in the US are going to plummet altogether and they'd rather focus on trying to sell them in yurup where they love diesel, for now at least. Why bother dropping all that money and all those cars on dealers when not many will sell anyhow.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Turbio! said:


> It's a significant enough expense to get certification that I really doubt VW would have cut and run just as a delaying tactic. If they're withdrawing, it's because there was doubt as to whether they could comply.


It's not a delaying tactic, but there's a chance they just said eff it, nobody is going to buy them now, anyway. 

What a freakin' mess. :banghead:


----------



## jazocar (Oct 2, 2015)

Well. Here is my $0.02. 
What happend next time you take your diesel VW is up for registration renewal. Could it potentially be denied be reason of the cars not meeting EPA regulations? 
Something has to happen quickly to solve this. 
The way it was explained to me is that the EPA doesnt actually conduct the tests (possibly due to limited budget) so they ask the manufacturer to perform the tests on their behalf and then submit the data. 
Its just disappointing the fix was in for so long ala Lance Armstrong. 
I still love my VW though



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gonzo08452 (Apr 17, 2006)

VW is like the band on the Titanic waiting for the inevitable


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

gonzo08452 said:


> VW is like the band on the Titanic waiting for the inevitable


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

Numbersix said:


> It's proof that they aren't really serious about making substantive culture or infrastructure change.


It's not a normal public company, what with huge ownership and board representation by Lower Saxony and Porsche family cronies.

That's the least impartial board of directors arrangement I can imagine. Saving grace (board shake up) might be shareholders lawsuits and lawsuits from pensions funds with heavy investment in VAG. That they did not disclose lying about defrauding customers and putting the business at risk is possibly an actionable event.


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

Numbersix said:


> If VW is stating the same cars fully comply with Euro6, then they should comply here too.


And you believe them?:bs:


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

jazocar said:


> Well. Here is my $0.02.
> What happend next time you take your diesel VW is up for registration renewal. Could it potentially be denied be reason of the cars not meeting EPA regulations?
> Something has to happen quickly to solve this.
> The way it was explained to me is that the EPA doesnt actually conduct the tests (possibly due to limited budget) so they ask the manufacturer to perform the tests on their behalf and then submit the data.
> ...


I take mine in this week to get my smog test. I hope I don't get turned away. Will report back.


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

I still don't understand fully, nor get how VW has so much trouble getting the EA288 to meet the stricter compliance, but Mercedes can get their 4-cyl diesel to comply in the E250 Bluetec. What different about that car than a modern TDI Golf? both use urea/ adblue / def systems.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Chmeeee said:


> Yeah man, the environment is STUPID.
> 
> 
> 
> Uh huh. The US Military budget is 77x that of the EPA. Homeland Security is 5x EPA. Keep digging.


Yes, it is stupid, it's not as BAD as everyone is being SHEEPed into thinking.
The tens of thousands of acres of forests burned down every year is
doing worse than exhaust emissions. Seeing as plants produce
oxygen, and Co2 is plant food, and well, the plants are being wiped
out. So, yeah, in the interim, emissions are bad because all the
filters are being burned to the ground every year.

Ha! Yeah,and with that budget, ISIS still lobs off another head, while VW
is going to be bashed for cheating on emissions. DIGGING? Don't have to,
the pile of federal dung is right on the surface, and it stinks; yet some
people still don't smell it, and it's too late once stepped in.



Maximum_Download said:


> Breaking news: VW withdraws EPA application for 2016 TDIs.
> http://www.autonews.com/article/201...n-for-2016-diesels?cciid=email-autonews-blast
> I think we can safely say TDI is likely dead in this country now.


Maybe, and, if so, that will increase the resale values of all the current
models. There are still the domestic (foreign still) diesel cars & trucks that
Dodge, Ford, and Chevy offer.


----------



## Cadenza_7o (Jan 23, 2001)

Cutandthrust said:


> I still don't understand fully, nor get how VW has so much trouble getting the EA288 to meet the stricter compliance, but Mercedes can get their 4-cyl diesel to comply in the E250 Bluetec. What different about that car than a modern TDI Golf? both use urea/ adblue / def systems.


Long answer...

2.0 TDI just recently adopted Ad-Blue but the software is geared towards efficiency and performance (high NOx). On these models it's likely that a reflash is all that's needed. 2.0 without Ad-Blue will cost more to retrofit. 

Mazda and Honda couldn't make their diesel engines work w/o urea injection so they decided to skip it. The emission hardware raises the selling price by a few thousands.... harder to sell. Luxury brands like BMW and Merc have no problem massaging their numbers to make diesel look like a good deal.


Short answer....

MB salesman: "VW employs drop-outs and Merc only allows 200 year old artisan-elves to work on their assembly line."


----------



## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

> Volkswagen’s emissions cheating scandal has a long, complicated history
> 
> 
> 
> ...


http://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/10...ating-scandal-has-a-long-complicated-history/


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

PowerslavePA said:


> Yes, it is stupid, it's not as BAD as everyone is being SHEEPed into thinking.
> The tens of thousands of acres of forests burned down every year is
> doing worse than exhaust emissions. Seeing as plants produce
> oxygen, and Co2 is plant food, and well, the plants are being wiped
> ...


Your argument is effectively the same as saying to the family of a murder victim 'sorry about your loss, but way worse stuff is happening in Syria right now, so we won't be investigating.' 

Get a clue.
:banghead:


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

Cutandthrust said:


> I still don't understand fully, nor get how VW has so much trouble getting the EA288 to meet the stricter compliance, but Mercedes can get their 4-cyl diesel to comply in the E250 Bluetec. What different about that car than a modern TDI Golf? both use urea/ adblue / def systems.


In one of the many earlier articles, it was mentioned that VW was originally going to use the exact Bluetec system that MB used. However, German corporate politics being what they are put a stop to that and Wolfsburg devleoped an "in haus" system. 

The other nearly equivalent situation is that of Navistar. Although they didn't try to deceive US EPA, they still failed miserably at complying with the new standards. In retrospect, it's completely unsurprising that VW finds itself in the same situation now.



Bloomberg said:


> Navistar sought to comply with federal engine emission rules that took effect in 2010 by using an exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) technology that funnels emissions back into the engine’s cylinders as a way of lowering the nitrogen oxide that is released. The trouble for Navistar is that the technique did not reduce the emissions sufficiently to meet the U.S. rules, which led to the company paying a penalty of nearly $2,000 per engine. Rival engine makers, such as Cummins (CMI), Paccar (PCAR), and Daimler (DAI:GR), use a system called selective catalytic reduction that applies a urea-water fluid to the exhaust gases to convert the harmful nitrogen oxide to water and nitrogen.
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-12-20/years-later-navistar-haunted-by-a-big-engine-blunder


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Waterfan said:


> It's not a normal public company, what with huge ownership and board representation by Lower Saxony and Porsche family cronies.
> 
> That's the least impartial board of directors arrangement I can imagine. Saving grace (board shake up) might be shareholders lawsuits and lawsuits from pensions funds with heavy investment in VAG. That they did not disclose lying about defrauding customers and putting the business at risk is *most definitely* an actionable event.


Fixed 

Yeah, basically if they had dumped their shares 2 days after the news broke (20% loss in value each day) the can sue for that entire amount back. You are talking a crap ton of money potentially.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Cutandthrust said:


> I still don't understand fully, nor get how VW has so much trouble getting the EA288 to meet the stricter compliance, but Mercedes can get their 4-cyl diesel to comply in the E250 Bluetec. What different about that car than a modern TDI Golf? both use urea/ adblue / def systems.


We don't know how the latest TDIs perform on the road. They haven't been tested yet. Only the Gen1 and Gen2 TDIs were tested for emissions on the road.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Turbio! said:


> If they were confident in their ability to do so and hit internal durability and output metrics, they'd have continued with the process. Emissions certification applications are expensive as hell; they wouldn't cut and run unless they had to.


It's only $50K or so to get an EPA certification. The expensive part is in all the testing and R&D work that has to be done beforehand.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

jnm2.0t said:


> Maybe they just think that VW diesel sales in the US are going to plummet altogether and they'd rather focus on trying to sell them in yurup where they love diesel, for now at least. Why bother dropping all that money and all those cars on dealers when not many will sell anyhow.


Wouldn't there be lots of already built 2016 models scattered around the country on dealer's lots and in holding VW areas with US VINs? Can they sell those elsewhere? 

And if VW can't get the 2016 TDI models EPA approved, what chance do they have to approve 2009 - 2015 models? 

Seems to me by pulling the 2016 submission VW is showing that there are real problems getting the vehicles to comply, especially long term compliance.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

TropicOrange said:


> We have owned a 2009 TDI for over 2 years. *What a mess VW has gotten themselves into. Until VW fixes the problem and compensates us fully for the loss of resale value of our car, loss of fuel efficiency/power after the fix *and then on top of that compensates us for being duped into thinking we are driving a green car all the while we pollute at such high level *I could not care less for their $2k discount on a new car,* they can stick their cars, no more VW for us.


I'm not a tree hugger by any means, and I could care less that the car pollutes more than it supposed to. I never thought a diesel would pollute less than a gas engine car to begin with as I bought it for the mpg. We are waiting it out to see what happens, but even with "a fix" the cars are going to be worth less now, and most likely get less mpg and have less HP/TQ numbers. I feel that we should be compensated for these three items (car value, mpg, hp/tq) and 2k off a new VW is no enough incentive. Now 5k off on top of any other incentives and a VW back trade in value would get us into a new JSW to get out of our 2011 JSW 6-speed with 79k on it.


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-vws-us-recall-could-be-thwarted-by-reluctant-diesel-owners-2015-10


SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - As Volkswagen AG prepares to explain how it might fix the polluting diesel cars that set off the biggest scandal in the German automaker's history, whatever solution it proposes could be undermined by some owners in the United States who won't bring their cars in for a recall and can't be forced to.

The cars, some 482,000 Passats, Golfs and Jettas sold in model years 2009 to 2015 in the United States, are peppy and fun to drive, owners say. Because fixing the cars is likely to result in lower performance and fuel economy, some drivers will decline, even though their cars would continue to spew 40 times the smog-producing emissions permitted by some states. If they do, there are few enforcement levers in place.

In the three states with the most VW diesel cars caught up in the emissions scandal, only California withholds registration renewals from cars that fail to comply with recalls. In Texas and Florida, which have the second- and third-highest number of VW diesels after California, there are no emission standards in place for diesel vehicles.

Nationally, only 17 states are required by the Clean Air Act to confirm that owners of cars subjected to a recall show proof they have complied with it before they are allowed to take an emissions test required to register their cars, the Environmental Protection Agency said.

The EPA couldn't confirm whether the 33 other states don't require owners to prove they have complied with a recalI. Texas doesn't include diesel vehicles in its emission inspection program and Florida no longer has a vehicle emission inspection program, EPA said. It isn't known how many other states don't require vehicles to pass emissions tests.

The EPA has said a recall is likely.

"I love the car," said the owner of a diesel Passat in Florida named Thomas, who didn't want to give his last name because of privacy concerns. "However, a lot of that is based upon the performance of the car. I am very dismayed that I am now in the position of ignoring the recall to have the performance of the car versus having the recall performed and the car not performing like the one I purchased."

Jared Allen, a spokesman with the National Auto Dealers Association, said loopholes in states such as Florida are why the nationwide recall completion rate hovers around 70 percent. 

"There is no enforcement mechanism that is tied to the consumer's ability to continue driving the vehicle," Allen said.

German regulators have set a Wednesday deadline for VW to disclose how vehicles will be fixed to comply with EU emissions laws.. On Thursday, VW's U.S. head will testify before U.S. lawmakers.

In the meantime, one owner on the VWVortex website said that VW would have to wave "a big carrot" in front of their customers to get them to comply with recall.

That could come in the form of loyalty programs, trade-ins, or cash incentives. VW late last week informed dealers it would offer "loyalty bonuses" of $2,000 for owners who want to trade in their cars.

Thomas from Florida said he doubted that would be enough: "I think the hit we'll take in resale will be much greater than that."

The EPA has the authority to order VW to recall the vehicles, but its authority to compel consumers to get their cars repaired is limited.

Asked about enforcement levers, the EPA said a recall wouldn't necessarily require owners to repair their vehicle. Manufacturers have to submit quarterly reports summarizing response rates to the agency, the EPA said.

But the stakes of disobeying a recall are clear: "Without the repairs, vehicles may be emitting harmful pollutants in excess of the federal emission standards," the EPA said in a statement to Reuters.

In a recall, California officials deny re-registrations to owners who fail to bring their vehicles into compliance. Vehicles are registered yearly so owners could get away without a fix for up to a year without being caught.

"I'd most likely wait as long as possible and let others be the technology pathfinders and get my cars 'fixed' only when there was a hard deadline by California after other folks get all the bugs worked out," said owner David Rosing of Los Angeles.

A majority of states, however, including Texas and Florida, have no such laws, frustrating environmentalists.

"I'm a bit surprised if Texas and Florida don't do the same thing (as California) and the EPA doesn't enforce that," said Roland Hwang, director of the National Resource Defense Council's energy and transportation program.

One thing that could affect the recall response rate is that problem is emissions-related and not a safety issue. Even in safety recalls, many vehicle owners don't take cars back to dealers to get them repaired, as they are not forced to.

According to the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, which is currently researching recall response rates, in 99 percent of safety recalls from 2000 to 2013, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration did not issue an unconditional "do not drive" recommendation.

That means that without Volkswagen's prodding its customers or wooing them with financial incentives, regulators can do little but hope that owners will comply.

"Regulators should be giving the orders and calling the shots," said Kristen Monsell, an attorney with the Center for Biological Diversity. "Instead, VW seems to be in the driver's seat." 

(Writing by Alexandria Sage; Editing by Steve Trousdale and John Pickering)


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AJB said:


> I'm not a tree hugger by any means, and I could care less that the car pollutes more than it supposed to. I never thought a diesel would pollute less than a gas engine car to begin with as I bought it for the mpg. We are waiting it out to see what happens, but even with "a fix" the cars are going to be worth less now, and most likely get less mpg and have less HP/TQ numbers. I feel that we should be compensated for these three items (car value, mpg, hp/tq) and 2k off a new VW is no enough incentive. Now 5k off on top of any other incentives and a VW back trade in value would get us into a new JSW to get out of our 2011 JSW 6-speed with 79k on it.


The $2k incentive is for any VW owner. VW needs incentives targeted specifically for 2009-2015 owners. However, even if they do that it still leaves VW with the problem vehicle, now in the hands of a dealer, which has to be fixed.


----------



## 2112 (Jun 21, 2004)

Out of curiosity, I took a look at cars.com, for 2009-2015 TDIs within 100 miles of me...and it shows 107 dealer listings. Can they actually post these for sale at the moment?


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

2112 said:


> Out of curiosity, I took a look at cars.com, for 2009-2015 TDIs within 100 miles of me...and it shows 107 dealer listings. Can they actually post these for sale at the moment?


Non-VW dealers continue to sell them. 
If these are VW dealer listings, they may just be stale.


----------



## 2112 (Jun 21, 2004)

Lwize said:


> Non-VW dealers continue to sell them.
> If these are VW dealer listings, they may just be stale.


Yes, many were VW dealer listings. That's what I sort of guessed.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

> In the meantime, one owner on the VWVortex website said that VW would have to wave "a big carrot" in front of their customers to get them to comply with recall.


anyone gonna claim this one? :laugh:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

GoHomeBroke said:


> anyone gonna claim this one? :laugh:


:laugh: lol


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

Michael Horn, CEO of VWoA Official Statement to be presented today in testimony...

*Testimony of Michael Horn, President and CEO of Volkswagen Group of America, Inc. 
Before the House Committee on Energy and Commerce Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations 
October 8, 2015​*
Chairman Upton, Chairman Murphy, Ranking Member Pallone, Ranking Member DeGette, other Members of the Committee, thank you for inviting me to testify before the Committee today. 

My name is Michael Horn, and I am the President and CEO of Volkswagen Group of America, a subsidiary of Volkswagen AG, headquartered in Wolfsburg, Germany. I have volunteered to come before this Committee at the very outset of these inquiries in an effort to show our commitment to cooperation. We have not had the opportunity to review all aspects of this matter, indeed the investigation is just beginning. Therefore, my testimony and my answers to your questions will, by necessity, have to be considered preliminary and based on my best current recollection and information. 

On behalf of our company, and my colleagues in Germany, I would like to offer a sincere apology for Volkswagen’s use of a software program that served to defeat the regular emissions testing regime. 

In the spring of 2014 when the West Virginia University study was published, I was told that there was a possible emissions non-compliance that could be remedied. I was informed that EPA regulations included various penalties for non-compliance with the emissions standards and that the agencies can conduct engineering tests which could include “defeat device” testing or analysis. I was also informed that the company engineers would work with the agencies to resolve the issue. Later in 2014, I was informed that the technical teams had a specific plan for remedies to bring the vehicles into compliance and that they were engaged with the agencies about the process. 

On September 3, 2015, Volkswagen AG disclosed at a meeting with the California Air Resources Board (“CARB”) and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (“EPA”) that emissions software in four cylinder diesel vehicles from model years 2009-2015 contained a “defeat device” in the form of hidden software that could recognize whether a vehicle was being operated in a test laboratory or on the road. The software made those emit higher levels of nitrogen oxides when the vehicles were driven in actual road use than during laboratory testing. 

In Volkswagen’s recent ongoing discussions with the regulators, we described to the EPA and CARB that our emissions control strategy also included a software feature that should be disclosed to and approved by them as an auxiliary emissions control device (“AECD”) in connection with the certification process. 

As a result, we have withdrawn the application for certification of our model year 2016 vehicles. We are working with the agencies to continue the certification process. These events are deeply troubling. I did not think that something like this was possible at the Volkswagen Group. We have broken the trust of our customers, dealerships, and employees, as well as the public and regulators. 

Let me be clear, we at Volkswagen take full responsibility for our actions and we are working with all relevant authorities in a cooperative way. I am here to offer the commitment of Volkswagen AG to work with this Committee to understand what happened, and how we will move forward. EPA, CARB, the U.S. Department of Justice, State Attorneys General, as well as other authorities, are fulfilling their duties to investigate this matter. 

We are determined to make things right. This includes accepting the consequences of our acts, providing a remedy, and beginning to restore the trust of our customers, dealerships, employees, the regulators, and the American public. We will rebuild the reputation of a company that more than two million people worldwide, including dealers and suppliers, rely upon for their livelihoods. Our immediate goal is to develop a remedy for our customers. While much work is still to be done, I’d like to talk today about how we get from where we are now to that goal.

*First*, we are conducting investigations on a world-wide scale into how these matters happened. Responsible parties will be identified and held accountable. Thorough investigations have already begun, but any information developed at this stage is preliminary. We ask for your understanding as we complete this work.

*Second*, it is important for the public to know that, as the EPA has said, these vehicles do not present a safety hazard and remain safe and legal to drive.

*Third*, technical teams are working tirelessly to develop remedies for each of the affected groups of vehicles. These solutions will be tested and validated, and then shared with the responsible authorities for approval. There are three groups of vehicles involved, each containing one of the three generations of the 2.0L diesel engine. Each will require a different remedy, but these remedies can only be our first step for our customers.

*Fourth*, we will examine our compliance, processes, and standards at Volkswagen and adopt measures to make certain that something like this cannot happen again.

*Fifth*, we commit to regular and open communication with our customers, dealers, employees, and the public as we move forward. As first steps, we have set up a designated service line and website to be a channel for this communication, and I have sent a letter to every affected customer.

I can offer today this outline of a path forward toward the goal of making things right. Nevertheless, Volkswagen knows that we will be judged not by words but by our actions over the coming weeks and months. 

These events are fundamentally contrary to Volkswagen’s core principles of providing value to our customers, innovation, and responsibility to our communities and the environment. They do not reflect the company that I know and to which I have dedicated 25 years of my life. It is inconsistent that the company involved in this emissions issue is also a company that has invested in environmental efforts to reduce the carbon footprint in our factories around the world. 

Volkswagen Group has a deep commitment to preserving our environment. As one of the world’s largest automobile manufacturers, our commitment to the environment extends throughout every aspect of our business in the more than 150 countries in which we operate. For example, here in the United States, Volkswagen’s manufacturing facility in Chattanooga, Tennessee serves as a model for Volkswagen plants around the world for increasing energy efficiency and reducing emissions, water, and materials usage and waste. In recognition of the plant’s efficiency, Volkswagen Chattanooga received a platinum certification from the U.S. Green Building Council’s Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design (“LEED”) program. The facility is the first and only automotive manufacturing plant in the world to receive the Platinum Certification. As environmental protection and sustainability are central to Volkswagen’s core values, these events have been particularly troubling. Our conduct in the events that bring us here today belittle the efforts of Volkswagen to lead in environmental responsibility.

Over the 60 years Volkswagen has been in the United States, it has become part of the American culture. There are more than 6,000 Americans employed directly by Volkswagen Group of America in its 60 facilities across the United States: from a customer relations center in Auburn Hills, Michigan and a testing lab in Golden, Colorado, to a parts distribution center in Haslet, Texas, and our state-of-the-art manufacturing facility in Chattanooga, Tennessee. That factory, alone, employs more than 2,200 people and is expanding. We are part of communities all across the country. Thousands more hardworking men and women are employed at our parts suppliers and the network of about 1,000 dealerships across the United States. 

In closing, I again apologize on behalf of everyone at Volkswagen. We will fully cooperate with all responsible authorities. We will find remedies for our customers, and we will work to ensure that this will never happen again. Thank you again for allowing me to testify today, and I look forward to your questions.


----------



## dos (Jul 5, 2009)

PowerslavePA said:


> Yes, it is stupid, it's not as BAD as everyone is being SHEEPed into thinking.
> The tens of thousands of acres of forests burned down every year is
> doing worse than exhaust emissions. Seeing as plants produce
> oxygen, and Co2 is plant food, and well, the plants are being wiped
> ...


Nice!

So basically no crime should be punished or no laws should actually be passed because there is always something worse. Nice strawman argument. If I want to walk up to someone's door and shoot them then take their car, no worries, ISIS is worse. I'll have to remember that ISIS excuse if I get pulled over for speeding because government bad.

Edit; Back on topic

No 2016 TDI's at least for now, man that sucks. I was hoping the 2016's would only need a quick reflash and be good to go.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Michael Horn said:


> *First*, we are conducting investigations on a world-wide scale into how these matters happened. Responsible parties will be identified and held accountable. Thorough investigations have already begun, but any information developed at this stage is preliminary. We ask for your understanding as we complete this work.


_Meanwhile on Planet Wolfsburg, Piëch has a bit of a chat with Horn...._


----------



## BeBop! (Jun 18, 2009)

AJB said:


> I feel that we should be compensated for these three items (car value, mpg, hp/tq) and 2k off a new VW is no enough incentive.


Oh please, they are not going to compensate you for lost mpg and hp/tq if the cars were achieving better than advertised results. You may get a small amount for the value part but that's about it.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

dos said:


> So basically no crime should be punished or no laws should actually be passed because there is always something worse.


No one is saying this, and to suggest otherwise is entirely disingenuous.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

AJB said:


> I'm not a tree hugger by any means, and I could*n't* care less that the car pollutes more than it supposed to. I never thought a diesel would pollute less than a gas engine car to begin with as I bought it for the mpg. We are waiting it out to see what happens, but even with "a fix" the cars are going to be worth less now, and most likely get less mpg and have less HP/TQ numbers. I feel that we should be compensated for these three items (car value, mpg, hp/tq) and 2k off a new VW is no enough incentive. Now 5k off on top of any other incentives and a VW back trade in value would get us into a new JSW to get out of our 2011 JSW 6-speed with 79k on it.


Other than the could care less/couldn't care less (could care less means that you still have some care for the car pollutants, maybe you do, who knows, but we are getting side tracked), i fully agree with your position and thats where i am also. Fortunately the TDI was just registered so the great state of California cant hold registration over my head for another year.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

BeBop! said:


> Oh please, they are not going to compensate you for lost mpg and hp/tq if the cars were achieving better than advertised results. You may get a small amount for the value part but that's about it.


As a TDI owner, they are going to have to do something significant in order to win back my trust and brand loyalty. $2K discount on another VW isn't going to cut it _at all_. Of course VAG can do what they want, but if people don't feel like they're being taken care of, it's going to leave a bad taste. AudiUSA sent an email to us saying "We will do the right thing by you" -- that sets a pretty high bar in my book.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Surf Green said:


> No one is saying this, and to suggest otherwise is entirely disingenuous.


x2


VW needs to be punished, but other automotive manufacturers have done much worse and didn't catch as much heat.


----------



## MonsterM (Aug 10, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> x2
> 
> 
> VW needs to be punished, but other automotive manufacturers have done much worse and didn't catch as much heat.


x3


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> x2
> 
> VW needs to be punished, but other automotive manufacturers have done much worse and didn't catch as much heat.


Toyota & VW caught more heat with the average public IMO. 

The average person barely knows about the EPA scandal and doesn't know VW can't sell most 2016 MY diesels. 

The scale by which VW deceived the world is greater than Toyota & GM which is why there is so much bureaucratic pain being brought down.


----------



## VeeDubDriver (Oct 1, 2001)




----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

VeeDubDriver said:


>


Ha, the West Virginia guy just confused the heck out of Horn by referring to "WVU."


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

Horn just said this to the lady from Illinois, re: timelines:

Gen 3: Starting fix beginning early next year
Gen 2: Fix still under development, won't start until middle of next year
Gen 1: Hardest "feat", no date right now, will start "discussing scenarios" in a few weeks.

Can someone tell me what's a Gen 1 car vs. Gen 2 car? Gen 3 I know is MY 2015+


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

BeBop! said:


> Oh please, they are not going to compensate you for lost mpg and hp/tq if the cars were achieving better than advertised results. You may get a small amount for the value part but that's about it.



I bet they will. I'm pretty sure a lot of people test drove the TDI and liked the power it delivered and were pretty pleased by the mileage they got. Doesn't matter what the paper says. The car was pushing more power than advertised straight from the factory when purchased, and continued to do so. It was more fun to drive. It was chosen over other vehicles and brands. This is fraud. VW will pay for it and win back the customers. They have no choice. And let's not forget the difference in price between the diesel vs gas. That's one of the class action lawsuits. To get back at minimum, the price difference of the engine.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

btitus said:


> Horn just said this to the lady from Illinois, re: timelines:
> 
> Gen 3: Starting fix beginning early next year
> Gen 2: Fix still under development, won't start until middle of next year
> ...


Gen1 - Lean Nox Trap - No Adblue 
Gen2 - Ad blue 
Gen3 - Ad Blue + new Engines


----------



## dos (Jul 5, 2009)

Surf Green said:


> No one is saying this, and to suggest otherwise is entirely disingenuous.


This is what I responding to, I don't know but comparing the crimes of VW to ISIS and saying it's no big deal is what I'm talking about. Where's the line in the sand? A crime is a crime, sorry.



PowerslavePA said:


> Yes, it is stupid, it's not as BAD as everyone is being SHEEPed into thinking.
> The tens of thousands of acres of forests burned down every year is
> doing worse than exhaust emissions. Seeing as plants produce
> oxygen, and Co2 is plant food, and well, the plants are being wiped
> ...


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

Hajduk said:


> Gen1 - Lean Nox Trap - No Adblue
> Gen2 - Ad blue
> Gen3 - Ad Blue + new Engines


Thanks, very helpful. So it's pretty clear they have no idea how to fix Gen 1. I am guessing they will have to offer a buyback.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

btitus said:


> Horn just said this to the lady from Illinois, re: timelines:
> 
> Gen 3: Starting fix beginning early next year
> Gen 2: Fix still under development, won't start until middle of next year
> ...


i think the 3 fixes has more to do with the 1.2, 1.6, and 2.0 TDI engines than with the different generations.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Hajduk said:


> Gen1 - Lean Nox Trap - No Adblue
> Gen2 - Ad blue
> Gen3 - Ad Blue + new Engines


So... most of the cars sold in North America are Gen 1 (no AdBlue)... and as such... we have at least a 6 month wait to figure something out?


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

GoHomeBroke said:


> i think the 3 fixes has more to do with the 1.2, 1.6, and 2.0 TDI engines than with the different generations.


Horn referred to the generations specifically in answering the question about fix timelines.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

CK98Beeetle said:


> I bet they will. I'm pretty sure a lot of people test drove the TDI and liked the power it delivered and were pretty pleased by the mileage they got. Doesn't matter what the paper says. The car was pushing more power than advertised straight from the factory when purchased, and continued to do so. It was more fun to drive. It was chosen over other vehicles and brands. This is fraud. VW will pay for it and win back the customers. They have no choice. And let's not forget the difference in price between the diesel vs gas. That's one of the class action lawsuits. To get back at minimum, the price difference of the engine.


i can't argue against that side of the fraud discussion. but the price difference between gas and diesel fuel is offset by the increase in mileage. lowballing figures after a fix, your TDI will still see 500+ miles per tank. my gas car barely makes it to 300. if i baby it, i'll see 320ish. you still fill up less in a TDI than a gas engined car.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

E CODE said:


> So... most of the cars sold in North America are Gen 1 (no AdBlue)... and as such... we have at least a 6 month wait to figure something out?


Yep. It's nuts... but it may be better for us if they just give up and do a buyback.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

VeeDubDriver said:


>


I don't recall Nürnberg begin so boring. The anecdotes are as exciting as two whales humping.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

btitus said:


> Horn referred to the generations specifically in answering the question about fix timelines.


no audio at work on my pc. had to guess.


----------



## Vuck Folkswagen (Oct 30, 2010)

Man, I remember when this thread was still on its first page. 130 pages later and its still the same argument :laugh::thumbup::thumbup:

*EDIT* - Annnnnnnd welcome to page 131 :wave:


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

Vuck Folkswagen said:


> Man, I remember when this thread was still on its first page. 130 pages later and its still the same argument :laugh::thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> *EDIT* - Annnnnnnd welcome to page 131 :wave:


And sh** just got real...er.....

http://money.cnn.com/2015/10/08/news/companies/volkswagen-scandal-police-raid/index.html



> German police raided the headquarters of Volkswagen on Thursday as part of an investigation into the automaker's diesel emissions scandal.
> State prosecutors and police searched Volkswagen's offices in Wolfsburg in a bid to secure documents and databases that could shed light on which employees were responsible for cheating pollution tests.
> Volkswagen (VLKAY) said it handed over a "comprehensive collection of documents" to the officials, and would support the work of the prosecutors to the best of its ability.
> "This will help to bring about a swift and complete resolution of the case, which is very much in Volkswagen's interest," the company said in a statement.
> ...


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

German police demanding to see your papers? :laugh:

Meanwhile, Horn is getting destroyed in the hearing. He seems like a nice guy who really doesn't know much. I kinda feel bad.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

GoHomePossum said:


> German police demanding to see your papers? :laugh:
> 
> Meanwhile, Horn is getting destroyed in the hearing. He seems like a nice guy who really doesn't know much. I kinda feel bad.


yep....this won't end well.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

as suspected... hardware updates needed.

at least youve got some time before theyll be ready :laugh:



> Horn says the remedies are still in development, but that he has been informed that 2015 model year cars should require only new software, while 2009-2014 model year vehicles will need to undergo mechanical upgrades. 2016 models, which are on dealer lots but do not yet have the EPA certification that would allow them to be sold, will also get a software update.
> 
> Volkswagen has no intention to buy back the cars outright, Horn said.
> 
> The older cars will have a urea exhaust injection system and likely a redesigned catalytic converter installed to bring their nitrogen oxide emissions in compliance. Horn said that this could require five to 10 hours of labor for each vehicle.


the rest, here


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

VeeDubDriver said:


>


man, he took a beating. feel bad for Horn stepping into this mess.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

GoHomePossum said:


> German police demanding to see your papers? :laugh:
> 
> Meanwhile, Horn is getting destroyed in the hearing. He seems like a nice guy who really doesn't know much. I kinda feel bad.


Horn wasn't here for any of this and is now, speaking english as a second language, sitting in front of a group of people that like to use big words, often have legal backgrounds, have their own agendas and are associated with our government asking a lot of questions. He's the CEO of VWoA and someone has to sit up there and answer the questions regardless of context or agenda, but what a circus.

My guess/opinion in all this is that only a small group of people within VW knew about the actual software. If you look at every single thing VW has done over the last ten years trying to improve their standing regarding environmental issues, this whole debacle just flies in the face of all those efforts. The amount of time and huge expense to make the new Chattanooga factory Leeds Platinum certified (and the only automotive factory to ever be Platinum certified). The entire forest of trees they planted to offset the carbon foot print of the factory. The solar power installations *on the roof of the emissions testing building*. The constant strides in lower CO2 and improved economy and on and on. And then a few boneheads make a stupid decision like this?

The whole thing is a shame for all the people that have worked so hard to do so many good things at that company. 

-jamie


_P.S. If you work for a publication/newspaper/website and decide you want to quote the above, you can not do so without my permission in writing._


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> Volkswagen has no intention to buy back the cars outright, Horn said.
> 
> the rest, here


Ms. Shakowsky from IL asked him specifically about a buyback:

_Shakowsky:_ Let me ask you this, have you considered financial compensation, for example allowing customers to actually return the car for what they paid for it?

_Horn:_ This is one of the areas we're looking into right now in terms of how to compensate our customers, yes.

_Shakowsky:_ Providing rebate for lost value of the car?

_Horn:_ Sure.

Then she goes on about loaners, which was kind of silly.

Anyway, I did not hear him say anything there that implied 'no intention' of buying back, in fact, quite the contrary. But maybe he answered a different question in a different way at some other point.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> Horn says the remedies are still in development, but that he has been informed that 2015 model year cars should require only new software, while *2009-2014 model year vehicles will need to undergo mechanical upgrades*. 2016 models, which are on dealer lots but do not yet have the EPA certification that would allow them to be sold, will also get a software update.
> 
> Volkswagen has no intention to buy back the cars outright, Horn said.
> 
> The older cars will have a urea exhaust injection system and likely a redesigned catalytic converter installed to bring their nitrogen oxide emissions in compliance. Horn said that this could require five to 10 hours of labor for each vehicle.


Those model years include all three generations of TDI. For example, 2012 Passats had a Gen 2 TDI while 2014 had the Gen 3. So, saying all 2009-2014 models will require mechanical upgrades in not correct.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> The whole thing is a shame for all the people that have worked so hard to do so many good things at that company.


Yup. I've posted in the past about how I can see the whole thing going down. 

Horn's comment about not being an engineer was interesting. Those of us who have done EFI fueling/ignition tweaks were quick to see exactly how the exploit worked and how simple it was. But people who don't know the ins and outs of EFI would just stare at it and say "so?" because the background information required to understand it is so complex. Product management wouldn't even know what this was about. And when Bosch ponied up that the software was latent ANYWAY, I was even less surprised. 

Congress should be asking Bosch why a dyno mode existed if they really want to get to the bottom of this instead of just looking busy. I would very much like to hear from Bosch's perspective WTF was going on there. I have my own opinion/suspicions on the matter, but I want to hear it for real.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

Hajduk said:


> Those model years include all three generations of TDI. For example, 2012 Passats had a Gen 2 TDI while 2014 had the Gen 3. So, saying all 2009-2014 models will require mechanical upgrades in not correct.


the point is the cars without urea injection will be fitted with it, once the fix is in place. as some of us have been saying since the start.




atomicalex said:


> Congress should be asking Bosch why a dyno mode existed if they really want to get to the bottom of this instead of just looking busy. I would very much like to hear from Bosch's perspective WTF was going on there. I have my own opinion/suspicions on the matter, but I want to hear it for real.


i posted about that in your bosch thread. i could see legitimate test uses for a dyno mode to make life easier for the calibrators doing the work.

maybe it should have been removed from the production code, etc, but its very existence isnt all that suspect IMO..


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

I think Representative Collins fron NY went right for the jugular, and rightfully so.

I refuse to believe this was a few rogue engineers. VW is huge and I guarantee they have a risk and compliance department where any major decision like this needs to be run through.

And if it wasn't, then someone had to override that process, a person very high up the food chain. In an autocratic environment like VW, there can only be that one explanation.


----------



## jannikt (Sep 25, 2015)

jreed1337 said:


> man, he took a beating. feel bad for Horn stepping into this mess.


He gets paid of LOT of money for this.
Once you reach upper management level, you don't get paid proportionally to the amount of money you do, but to the amount if $*tt you have to eat.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Now that urea is virtually confirmed for the Gen 1 TDIs - there will definitely be a significant amount bought back.

Aside from the potential MPG hit, this is going to be a huge disaster for current Golf owners from a practicality standpoint - let's take an already small cargo area when the seats are up, and make it significantly smaller to accommodate all of the new hardware that will be required in a package that was never designed for it.

Glad I don't have that piece anymore.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Maximum_Download said:


> a person very high up the food chain. In an autocratic environment like VW, there can only be that one explanation.


that person, more than likely, resigned before **** really hit the fan. Winterkorn was the head of the snake during this entire thing. this originated in Germany, not the US. Horn is literally out of the loop on this. 



Rabbit5GTI said:


> Now that urea is virtually confirmed for the Gen 1 TDIs - there will definitely be a significant amount bought back.
> 
> Aside from the potential MPG hit, this is going to be a huge disaster for current Golf owners from a practicality standpoint - let's take an already small cargo area when the seats are up, and make it significantly smaller to accommodate all of the new hardware that will be required in a package that was never designed for it.
> 
> Glad I don't have that piece anymore.


why wouldn't they just design a Urea tank/setup that would fit in existing spaces? worse comes to worse, you lose your spare wheel well. i don't even use mine.


----------



## DrewSXR (Jul 26, 2000)

Did this story already come up in this thread? I just read it today.

VW may be under reporting death and injury claims.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...n-new-questions-arise-on-u-s-injury-reporting


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

GoHomeBroke said:


> t
> 
> why wouldn't they just design a Urea tank/setup that would fit in existing spaces? *worse comes to worse, you lose your spare wheel well. i don't even use mine*.


And you think owners are going to accept that as a sufficient solution? Come on, man.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> And you think owners are going to accept that as a sufficient solution? Come on, man.


i didn't say they would, but it's not like their cargo space is about to get cut in half. the Golf will likely lose it's spare wheel well, at worst. that would mean new interior trim panels, possibly new rear body panels, and more on top of the emissions equipment.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

GoHomeBroke said:


> i didn't say they would, but it's not like their cargo space is about to get cut in half. the Golf will likely lose it's spare wheel well, at worst.


impossible to say without knowing what top up frequency theyre shooting for, and the consumption rate...

and with this being the very definition of an afterthought, i wouldnt count on a super slick install :laugh:


----------



## adrew (Aug 15, 2003)

Pretty funny that "Smokey" Joe Barton is getting in on the grilling. He's the one who apologized to BP after the gulf oil spill and got fracking to be exempt from federal environmental regulations. 

He has $500k+ in contributions from fracking companies: http://www.citizensforethics.org/pages/database-fracking-industry-contributions-to-113th-congress


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

GoHomeBroke said:


> i didn't say they would, but it's not like their cargo space is about to get cut in half. the Golf will likely lose it's spare wheel well, at worst.


As I said - it's a small space to begin with, so any intrusion is going to be noticeable.

And there is no way they will integrate it into the spare wheel well unless the spare can be retained, which I would find doubtful.


----------



## cjmoy (Aug 23, 2000)

GoHomeBroke said:


> i didn't say they would, but it's not like their cargo space is about to get cut in half. the Golf will likely lose it's spare wheel well, at worst. that would mean new interior trim panels, possibly new body rear body panels, and more on top of the emissions equipment.


Both my 335d and GLK250 came with run flats because the spare tire well is taken up by the urea tank.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

adrew said:


> Pretty funny that "Smokey" Joe Barton is getting in on the grilling. He's the one who apologized to BP after the gulf oil spill and got fracking to be exempt from federal environmental regulations.
> 
> He has $500k+ in contributions from fracking companies: http://www.citizensforethics.org/pages/database-fracking-industry-contributions-to-113th-congress


and people wonder why we question the government's motives here.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> As I said - it's a small space to begin with, so any intrusion is going to be noticeable.
> 
> And there is no way they will integrate it into the spare wheel well unless the spare can be retained, which I would find doubtful.


why does the spare have to be retained????

most cars today DON'T have a spare (Golf R) for instance???

maybe delete the spare and provide a "roadside assistance" package, or an inflation kit???

neither is uncommon.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> As I said - it's a small space to begin with, so any intrusion is going to be noticeable.
> 
> And there is no way they will integrate it into the spare wheel well unless the spare can be retained, which I would find doubtful.


i'm not saying it's integrated. i'm saying the Urea tank for the Golf will probably replace the spare wheel well. get rid of it. no more spare. it keeps them from cutting into cargo space, but you lose a donut.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

You'reDrunk said:


> maybe delete the spare and provide a "roadside assistance" package, or an inflation kit???
> 
> neither is uncommon.


pretty much.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

cjmoy said:


> Both my 335d and GLK250 came with run flats because the spare tire well is taken up by the urea tank.


that's an option, too. throw some Contiseals on it, and call it square.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

I am surprised the EPA will let these Gen1 cars still on the road for another 1-2 years before they can be fixed...if they can be fixed.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

You'reDrunk said:


> why does the spare have to be retained????
> 
> most cars today DON'T have a spare (Golf R) for instance???
> 
> ...





GoHomeBroke said:


> i'm not saying it's integrated. i'm saying the Urea tank for the Golf will probably replace the spare wheel well. get rid of it. no more spare. it keeps them from cutting into cargo space, but you lose a donut.


I'm going on record saying both of you guys are nuts.

There is NO WAY it will be dropped. Roadside assistance and inflation kits are useless if you get a flat in the middle of nowhere.

People bought their cars equipped a certain way, and if that is altered in tangible way - people WILL be angered by it. The MkVI Golf doesn't have a donut, either - it's full-size.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

DrewSXR said:


> Did this story already come up in this thread? I just read it today.
> 
> VW may be under reporting death and injury claims.
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...n-new-questions-arise-on-u-s-injury-reporting


Meh, not buying it. There was a research report at NHTSA years ago that called out VW for a spooky-low fatality rate and it turned out then that the whole thing was true - VW had fewer fatalities. The cause and effect were determined to be that people driving VWs thought they were tin cans and therefore drove more cautiously, which in turn resulted in them being in fewer overall collisions, leading to fewer deaths. 

This is sketchy reporting at best, and just trying to drag VW further down.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> I'm going on record saying both of you guys are nuts.
> 
> There is NO WAY it will be dropped. Roadside assistance and inflation kits are useless if you get a flat in the middle of nowhere.
> 
> People bought their cars equipped a certain way, and if that is altered in tangible way - people WILL be angered by it. The MkVI Golf doesn't have a donut, either - it's full-size.


I agree (and I have a 2014 TDI, so I get to have an opinion on this), and I've used my full size spare on no less than 4 occasions within a year: 
- winter tire blew out
- rear tire blew out (replaced)
- rear tire picked up a frame bolt and got plugged
- rear tire picked up a piece of galvanized steel (replaced)

I can swap to my full sized spare in less than 6 minutes, with the widow-maker. Taking that away, given my commute is a 100% deal breaker (as is mileage under advertised value). 

The only way I see this working in general is a fix that retains the car's usability as purchased, mileage as advertised, AND includes a *lifetime *emissions warranty since we'll have NO idea how these changes will affect the car in the long run...


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Maximum_Download said:


> I think Representative Collins fron NY went right for the jugular, and rightfully so.


I don't know, did he make it clear that he was an engineer? And that VW engineers must have been stumped?



adrew said:


> Pretty funny that "Smokey" Joe Barton is getting in on the grilling. He's the one who apologized to BP after the gulf oil spill and got fracking to be exempt from federal environmental regulations.
> 
> He has $500k+ in contributions from fracking companies: http://www.citizensforethics.org/pages/database-fracking-industry-contributions-to-113th-congress


Clean EVs have to be fueled, man.



Phil Pugliese said:


> I am surprised the EPA will let these Gen1 cars still on the road for another 1-2 years before they can be fixed...if they can be fixed.


Not their call nor their responsibility. What will be interesting is to see how conservative states like California will handle these horrible polluters.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

E CODE said:


> I agree (and I have a 2014 TDI, so I get to have an opinion on this), and I've used my full size spare on no less than 4 occasions within a year:
> - winter tire blew out
> - rear tire blew out (replaced)
> - rear tire picked up a frame bolt and got plugged
> ...


1)if they don't take up the spare wheel well, they'll most likely design a Urea tank with existing space. redesigning the interior would add additional costs per model, so it doesn't make any sense fiscally to go about it that way.
2) a lifetime warranty? no. that's not going to happen. Horn already talked about not doing a buy back, so offering a lifetime warranty on the new parts installed probably isn't happening either. up to 5 extra years w/unlimited miles? probably.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

GoHomeBroke said:


> 1)if they don't take up the spare wheel well, they'll most likely design a Urea tank with existing space. redesigning the interior would add additional costs per model, so it doesn't make any sense fiscally to go about it that way.


again, completely depends on the size of the tank based on fill interval and urea usage.
i bet itll be a big tank though...

but until then its impossible to say whether itll fit into the spare tire well without other hacking.
my hunch is it wont.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> 1)if they don't take up the spare wheel well, they'll most likely design a Urea tank with existing space. redesigning the interior would add additional costs per model, so it doesn't make any sense fiscally to go about it that way.
> 2) a lifetime warranty? no. that's not going to happen. Horn already talked about not doing a buy back, so offering a lifetime warranty on the new parts installed probably isn't happening either. up to 5 extra years w/unlimited miles? probably.


2) they'll have to extend it at least 10-12 years though will they not? I thought emissions related elements had to function for a decade? So adding a new emissions element would have to reset the clock to the date of refit... I would think.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> again, completely depends on the size of the tank based on fill interval and urea usage.
> i bet itll be a big tank though...
> 
> but until then its impossible to say whether itll fit into the spare tire well without other hacking.
> my hunch is it wont.


if we're talking a 5 gallon tank, shouldn't be too hard to figure out how to fit one. but then mileage comes into play for that. how long will five gallons of Urea last?


----------



## VW_Enthu1 (Oct 23, 2004)

Wowwww. 

I just read thru as much of this as I could stomach - there are some painfully delusional VW fans in here. I like VW, but I'm not blinded by it. This is a corporate _*disaster*_ and I'm seeing notes about it not being a big deal, removing spare tires, and VW being unnecessarily dragged down for no reason?

There is a lot of info to be hashed out by VW management, but the smart analysts already get that the cost of this will probably be 5-10X what VW projected. The new CEO already gets it that this _could_ - I don't think it will - bring down the whole company.

Some people on this forum need to get their heads out of the sand. You may love your diesel, but it's _over._ D*mn.

I don't always agree with this guy, but I think he may be dead on on this one (Auto Extremist - The day the VW music died): 

http://www.autoextremist.com/current/?currentPage=3


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

E CODE said:


> 2) they'll have to extend it at least 10-12 years though will they not? I thought emissions related elements had to function for a decade? So adding a new emissions element would have to reset the clock to the date of refit... I would think.


a decade? pfft. not trying to pick at you here, but let's be realistic. the main issue with the emissions equipment is longevity, yeah. those should last well north of 100k miles. most factory warranties only cover the first 3 years/60kish miles. so if we're balancing VW sucking up to their customers and TDI owners with cost effectiveness, we're gonna see (if anything) roughly 5 years and unlimited miles on the new emissions equipment installed. there's no mileage limit to worry about, so TDI owners aren't gonna worry about driving past their limit. that means happier owners, somewhat. and it's only 5 years, so the cost to them isn't going to hit too hard. 

TDI parts ain't cheap. it's the only reason i never bought one. i don't do leases, so owning one is no go.


----------



## VeeDubDriver (Oct 1, 2001)

EPA is testifying now...


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> if we're talking a 5 gallon tank, shouldn't be too hard to figure out how to fit one. but then mileage comes into play for that. how long will five gallons of Urea last?


the tank on my TDi Touareg lasts about 10K miles (not sure of the tank size). Refill it's 10L (2.65 Gal), but I put one of these in, and it's only $18 from the dealer


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

atomicalex said:


> Meh, not buying it. There was a research report at NHTSA years ago that called out VW for a spooky-low fatality rate and it turned out then that the whole thing was true - VW had fewer fatalities. The cause and effect were determined to be that people driving VWs thought they were tin cans and therefore drove more cautiously, which in turn resulted in them being in fewer overall collisions, leading to fewer deaths.
> 
> This is sketchy reporting at best, and just trying to drag VW further down.


+1 these statistics can be wacky and highly suspect. Running this story now is essentially click bait.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

atomicalex said:


> Meh, not buying it. There was a research report at NHTSA years ago that called out VW for a spooky-low fatality rate and it turned out then that the whole thing was true - VW had fewer fatalities. The cause and effect were determined to be that people driving VWs thought they were tin cans and therefore drove more cautiously, which in turn resulted in them being in fewer overall collisions, leading to fewer deaths.
> 
> This is sketchy reporting at best, and just trying to drag VW further down.


that's what turns me on about ya. _your attention to detail_.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> a decade? pfft. not trying to pick at you here, but let's be realistic. the main issue with the emissions equipment is longevity, yeah. those should last well north of 100k miles. most factory warranties only cover the first 3 years/60kish miles. so if we're balancing VW sucking up to their customers and TDI owners with cost effectiveness, we're gonna see (if anything) roughly 5 years and unlimited miles on the new emissions equipment installed. there's no mileage limit to worry about, so TDI owners aren't gonna worry about driving past their limit. that means happier owners, somewhat. and it's only 5 years, so the cost to them isn't going to hit too hard.
> 
> TDI parts ain't cheap. it's the only reason i never bought one. i don't do leases, so owning one is no go.


I thought I read that the EPA mandated a 10 year functional life... or something like that... 

Being an affected owner... I'll just have to wait a year or so to find out what the plan is... I'll probably trade the car in by then anyway... just becuase I'll get bored of it.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

E CODE said:


> I thought I read that the EPA mandated a 10 year functional life... or something like that...
> 
> Being an affected owner... I'll just have to wait a year or so to find out what the plan is... I'll probably trade the car in by then anyway... just becuase I'll get bored of it.


i don't know what the EPA mandates. all i know is i've never had any cat covered by any warranty when it failed. the warranty ran out, the cat failed some time after, and it was on me to pay to fix it. if the EPA steps in and makes them cover it longer, owners got a good break. if not, i'm guessing VW will cover it for close to five years.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> i don't know what the EPA mandates. all i know is i've never had any cat covered by any warranty when it failed. the warranty ran out, the cat failed some time after, and it was on me to pay to fix it. if the EPA steps in and makes them cover it longer, owners got a good break. if not, i'm guessing VW will cover it for close to five years.


5 is better than nothing


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

E CODE said:


> 5 is better than nothing


i'm just guessing here. best case scenario for VW's reputation, offer unlimited miles with it. peace of mind to the owners so which may keep them from jumping ship entirely.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

VW will survive this........ not so sure about the EPA, good lord Burgess is raking Grundler over the coals.... no pun intended :laugh:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

jesus ****ing christ.



> The Wolfsburg, Germany-based automaker will ultimately face costs and lost revenue from its damaged image of more than 35 billion euros ($39 billion), according to an estimate by Warburg Research.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ls-congress-430-000-cars-need-engine-retrofit
more than 40 times what GM paid. 

maybe they'd be better off if they had just killed people instead.


i should probably clarify that this isn't a shot at anyone. it probably includes estimated costs to fix every car, as well as fines and lost stock value.


----------



## pasateando (Mar 19, 2002)

Hard to keep up with all the new information....

Damn... really mind boggling.... hard to believe that only three engineers knew and that senior management did not...


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> VW will survive this........ not so sure about the EPA, good lord Burgess is raking Grundler over the coals.... no pun intended :laugh:


EPA will be fine, but that last lady before new york was ripping mr smithers a new one


----------



## Aw614 (May 9, 2001)

GoHomeBroke said:


> i don't know what the EPA mandates. all i know is i've never had any cat covered by any warranty when it failed. the warranty ran out, the cat failed some time after, and it was on me to pay to fix it. if the EPA steps in and makes them cover it longer, owners got a good break. if not, i'm guessing VW will cover it for close to five years.


I thought the cat warranty was 10 years? Or is that manufacturer based? I was looking at the maintenance records that my honda had and the PO had the cat replaced under warranty in 2008, when it was a 2000 model year.

Not sure if other emissions related component are covered though, seems like PCVs, o2 sensors probably arent...


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Aw614 said:


> I thought the cat warranty was 10 years? Or is that manufacturer based? I was looking at the maintenance records that my honda had and the PO had the cat replaced under warranty in 2008, when it was a 2000 model year.
> 
> Not sure if other emissions related component are covered though, seems like PCVs, o2 sensors probably arent...


maybe it is manufacturer based. had a ford cat **** itself 7 years down the road. no warranty to cover it.


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

VW should just say a huge F.U. to the whole world and just shut the company down.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

My initial reaction to this disaster weeks ago was "I bet VW will buy carbon credits for the non-compliant vehicles". Now that they've admitted that the Gen 1's are going to be a difficult fix, does this make any sense as an option? I admittedly have no idea what the cost on that would be.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

atomicalex said:


> Congress should be asking Bosch why a dyno mode existed if they really want to get to the bottom of this instead of just looking busy. I would very much like to hear from Bosch's perspective WTF was going on there. I have my own opinion/suspicions on the matter, but I want to hear it for real.


Wouldn't there need to be some type of dyno mode at a basic level for various state emissions tests and such? Along the lines of something that shuts down ESP and ASR to allow the front wheels to spin up at a radically different speed than the rears. So at a basic level I can see some type of "dyno sensing" scheme being written into the code.


----------



## Jimmy Russells (Feb 4, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Wouldn't there need to be some type of dyno mode at a basic level for various state emissions tests and such? Along the lines of something that shuts down ESP and ASR to allow the front wheels to spin up at a radically different speed than the rears. So at a basic level I can see some type of "dyno sensing" scheme being written into the code.


I recall reading when the Jetta came out with no ESP button that the car would be able to sense when you were trying to spin the wheels to get out of snow or whatever. I wonder if it's a similar program.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

PnZrFsT said:


> My initial reaction to this disaster weeks ago was "I bet VW will buy carbon credits for the non-compliant vehicles". Now that they've admitted that the Gen 1's are going to be a difficult fix, does this make any sense as an option? I admittedly have no idea what the cost on that would be.


tesla has been selling theirs for years....it's how the company has stayed afloat with production/sales being so low.

*Analysis: Tesla may have made over $100 million off the CARB enabled battery swap ZEV credit scheme*
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/03/...ion-off-the-carb-enabled-battery-swap-scheme/


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

ThreadBomber said:


> I recall reading when the Jetta came out with no ESP button that the car would be able to sense when you were trying to spin the wheels to get out of snow or whatever. I wonder if it's a similar program.


There is a specific procedure for the Jetta to turn off the ESP completely when putting it on a dyno. VW supplies these instructions to regulatory personnel when they test it.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> Wouldn't there need to be some type of dyno mode at a basic level for various state emissions tests and such? Along the lines of something that shuts down ESP and ASR to allow the front wheels to spin up at a radically different speed than the rears. So at a basic level I can see some type of "dyno sensing" scheme being written into the code.


That's kind of the point I want to make. Federal mandates forced this kind of code to exist. So saying the code is in 11 million vehicles is kind of silly, it's actually in all the vehicles. The question is which vehicles exploit it, and VW is still trying to sort that out. 

Anybody running Bosch ABS/TC/EFI has enough base code in their ECU to do this. 

Would be completely hilarious to have Bosch in front of Congress saying that the code is actually in all of the cars that run that group of modules. Every single car maker would be up there testifying, and it would open the door to invoking the law of unintended consequences. The CFR would explode by 100 pages daily for two months.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

atomicalex said:


> Would be completely hilarious to have Bosch in front of Congress saying that the code is actually in all of the cars that run that group of modules.


Dear Santa, I've been sorta good this year.......


----------



## Sledge (May 15, 2005)

Hawk said:


> VW should just say a huge F.U. to the whole world and just shut the company down.


I bet you stay up late nights wondering why you haven't been tapped to be the VW CEO?


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Hawk said:


> VW should just say a huge F.U. to the whole world and just shut the company down.


why were you let back in here????


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

atomicalex said:


> That's kind of the point I want to make. Federal mandates forced this kind of code to exist. So saying the code is in 11 million vehicles is kind of silly, it's actually in all the vehicles. The question is which vehicles exploit it, and VW is still trying to sort that out.
> 
> Anybody running Bosch ABS/TC/EFI has enough base code in their ECU to do this.
> 
> Would be completely hilarious to have Bosch in front of Congress saying that the code is actually in all of the cars that run that group of modules. Every single car maker would be up there testifying, and it would open the door to invoking the law of unintended consequences. The CFR would explode by 100 pages daily for two months.


would any exec at VW be aware of this?


----------



## bzcat (Nov 26, 2001)

GoHomeBroke said:


> maybe it is manufacturer based. had a ford cat **** itself 7 years down the road. no warranty to cover it.


Ford's emission warranty in non-CARB states is 8/80,000. How many miles did you have?



Ford said:


> Passenger cars, light duty trucks (applies to vehicles up to 8,500
> pounds GVWR)
> — 8 years or 80,000 miles (whichever occurs first) for catalytic
> converter, electronic emissions control unit, and onboard emissions
> diagnostic devices


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

bzcat said:


> Ford's emission warranty in non-CARB states is 8/80,000. How many miles did you have?


more than 80. that did the trick then. i tend to go high on mileage, considering i refuse to give up on joyrides.


----------



## Zinhead1 (Nov 10, 2003)

VW_Enthu1 said:


> Wowwww.
> 
> I just read thru as much of this as I could stomach - there are some painfully delusional VW fans in here. I like VW, but I'm not blinded by it. This is a corporate _*disaster*_ and I'm seeing notes about it not being a big deal, removing spare tires, and VW being unnecessarily dragged down for no reason?
> 
> ...


Here, here. By the time this over, FCA might be looking to buy VW.


----------



## Sledge (May 15, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> would any exec at VW be aware of this?


I am sure VWs department that benchmarks competitor's products would know how many other cars use this particular computer control.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

GoHomeBroke said:


> would any exec at VW be aware of this?


 Probably not. In principle that Bosch had suitable code yes. That it was exploitable? Maybe. That a bunch of engineers did it? Probably not.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

atomicalex said:


> That's kind of the point I want to make. Federal mandates forced this kind of code to exist. So saying the code is in 11 million vehicles is kind of silly, it's actually in all the vehicles. The question is which vehicles exploit it, and VW is still trying to sort that out.
> 
> Anybody running Bosch ABS/TC/EFI has enough base code in their ECU to do this.
> 
> Would be completely hilarious to have Bosch in front of Congress saying that the code is actually in all of the cars that run that group of modules. Every single car maker would be up there testifying, and it would open the door to invoking the law of unintended consequences. The CFR would explode by 100 pages daily for two months.


I wasn't going to say this but since you opened up this can of worms...

I have a friend with an S8 that has no problem passing emissions. Odd thing is that he runs the car with straight pipes. You can see fuels leaving the pipes when he guns it. And yet...passes emissions. Hmmm.

I think this code is in all vehicles from VW to some degree.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

DJMRDARK said:


> I wasn't going to say this but since you opened up this can of worms...
> 
> I have a friend with an S8 that has no problem passing emissions. Odd thing is that he runs the car with straight pipes. You can see fuels leaving the pipes when he guns it. And yet...passes emissions. Hmmm.
> 
> I think this code is in all vehicles from VW to some degree.


is he getting his emissions check done by "a friend"?


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

Sledge said:


> I bet you stay up late nights wondering why you haven't been tapped to be the VW CEO?


I'm playing the long, long, long game.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> is he getting his emissions check done by "a friend"?


Nope. Just at a state facility with whomever is working at the time.

So either their equipment is broken or this code thing runs much deeper.

Not hard to do. Is driver's door open? Car in park? Conditions satisfied. Emission mode activate. Can be done on ANY car. Not just diesel.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

I just remembered this nugget. Anyone remember when the TDI's came out for the 09 model year and VW made a big deal how the epa MPG results weren't representative of what owners could expect to see? 

Well here's the press release. Pretty f*****g hilarious to read in hindsight. AMCI tested the cars on the road  to verify the "real" city and highway mileage.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/volkswagens-clean-diesels-eligible-for-alternative-motor-vehicle-federal-tax-credit-65131237.html



> While the Environmental Protection Agency estimates the Jetta TDI at an
> economical 29 mpg city and 40 mpg highway, Volkswagen went a step further
> to show real world fuel economy of the Jetta TDI. Leading third-party
> certifier, AMCI, tested the Jetta TDI and found it performed 24 percent
> ...


----------



## Jimmy Russells (Feb 4, 2007)

DJMRDARK said:


> I wasn't going to say this but since you opened up this can of worms...
> 
> I have a friend with an S8 that has no problem passing emissions. Odd thing is that he runs the car with straight pipes. *You can see fuels leaving the pipes when he guns it*. And yet...passes emissions. Hmmm.
> 
> I think this code is in all vehicles from VW to some degree.



Water


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

ThreadBomber said:


> Water


Not water. I know the difference.:laugh:

Kinda like when Lambos spit fire on the track running straight pipes. That aint water.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

vwwtchr said:


> I just remembered this nugget. Anyone remember when the TDI's came out for the 09 model year and VW made a big deal how the epa MPG results weren't representative of what owners could expect to see?
> 
> Well here's the press release. Pretty f*****g hilarious to read in hindsight. AMCI tested the cars on the road  to verify the "real" city and highway mileage.
> 
> http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/volkswagens-clean-diesels-eligible-for-alternative-motor-vehicle-federal-tax-credit-65131237.html


interesting.



> 24 percent
> better


so, would that 24% apply to the performance of the car as well?


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

DJMRDARK said:


> Nope. Just at a state facility with whomever is working at the time.
> 
> So either their equipment is broken or this code thing runs much deeper.
> 
> Not hard to do. Is driver's door open? Car in park? Conditions satisfied. Emission mode activate. Can be done on ANY car. Not just diesel.


did he get an APR tune? those guys offer tuning packages that allow the driver to switch between different modes.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

atomicalex said:


> That's kind of the point I want to make. Federal mandates forced this kind of code to exist. So saying the code is in 11 million vehicles is kind of silly, it's actually in all the vehicles. The question is which vehicles exploit it, and VW is still trying to sort that out.
> 
> Anybody running Bosch ABS/TC/EFI has enough base code in their ECU to do this.
> 
> Would be completely hilarious to have Bosch in front of Congress saying that the code is actually in all of the cars that run that group of modules. Every single car maker would be up there testifying, and it would open the door to invoking the law of unintended consequences. The CFR would explode by 100 pages daily for two months.


Yes, but having a simple algorithm that looks for conditions for dyno testing just to make sure the computer automatically disengages ASR and ESP is different than also including code to physically change engine settings for emissions specific purposes, right?


----------



## jannikt (Sep 25, 2015)

atomicalex said:


> That's kind of the point I want to make. Federal mandates forced this kind of code to exist. .


This is incorrect. The EPA test procedure requires all cars to have a "test mode" that allows to run the engine under different loads on a dyno. But it does not mean that the emission control software can perform any differently during the test vs. normal modes. What VW did is to write a different engine control algorithm to be used specifically during the test mode. And this is, as far as we know, unique.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> Yes, but having a simple algorithm that looks for conditions for dyno testing just to make sure the computer automatically disengages ASR and ESP is different than also including code to physically change engine settings for emissions specific purposes, right?


Yes, it is. 

VW is culpable. Oh, so very culpable. I just want to see a whole mess of stupidity get pulled down with them if they are going to really get raked over for this. I want the full scope of CAN-BUS exploitation to be laid bare. If nothing else, it will expose how incredibly easy it is to exploit and hack CAN-BUS vehicles, and how much at risk the entire automotive industry is. It will also make clear how to do it, and it will be quite some time before the lid is back on engine management as far as tuning goes. 

I foresee a short-term future of beautiful EFI hacks and fun for those who like to play with this stuff. 

You know, we would hear periodically about tuners who would get good dyno numbers, but buyers of their tunes would not get the corresponding butt dyno bumps. It makes me wonder how you knew how not to map to that condition. Because it truly is just another set of conditions. It's not a big flag in the code that says "DYNO MODE - DO NOT USE THESE COMBINATIONS OF SENSOR INPUTS". It's a documented set of sensor output ranges that triggers it. There is no reason to hide it or even to bother with it. It's just there. 

And the fact that it is not in the Conti modules - which would not share as much data over the bus as the whole Bosch rig would.... That just bugs me. Because the Conti module has to have a dyno mode, too. It just triggers in a different manner. 

Law of unintended consequences. Bosch opened a door and now we are not going to get it shut any time soon.


_/runs off for documentation of her own ABS modules...._


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

jazocar said:


> Well. Here is my $0.02.
> What happend next time you take your diesel VW is up for registration renewal. Could it potentially be denied be reason of the cars not meeting EPA regulations?
> Something has to happen quickly to solve this.
> The way it was explained to me is that the EPA doesnt actually conduct the tests (possibly due to limited budget) so they ask the manufacturer to perform the tests on their behalf and then submit the data.
> ...





Phil Pugliese said:


> I take mine in this week to get my smog test. I hope I don't get turned away. Will report back.


My registration expires at the end of this month. I guess I should get it done sooner than later too.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

here's an oddball thought:


this only affects the 2.0 diesels. why not just axe the 2.0 and put the 3.0 in all the things?


----------



## WRXGuy (Feb 20, 2002)

GoHomeBroke said:


> here's an oddball thought:
> 
> 
> this only affects the 2.0 diesels. why not just axe the 2.0 and put the 3.0 in all the things?


Do tell -- how will they cram the 3.0l TDI into say, a Mk7 Golf?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

WRXGuy said:


> Do tell -- how will they cram the 3.0l TDI into say, a Mk7 Golf?


KY Jelly, a shoehorn, and a plunger.


----------



## Aw614 (May 9, 2001)

WRXGuy said:


> Do tell -- how will they cram the 3.0l TDI into say, a Mk7 Golf?


The mythical VR6 diesel


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> KY Jelly, a shoehorn, and a plunger.


BRB :thumbup:


----------



## Tuono5740 (Nov 23, 2011)

GoHomeBroke said:


> here's an oddball thought:
> 
> 
> this only affects the 2.0 diesels. why not just axe the 2.0 and put the 3.0 in all the things?


DEAL! I'd like to signup to be first on the list for that swap opcorn:

P.S. By the time you made enough parts, paid the technician, replaced the entire drivetrain(transmissions are different as well), removed the dash and replaced the heater box, I'm assuming change the suspension due to weight change, and added urea I'm pretty sure all 3.0's have.... Well by the time they pay for that I could have demanded and gotten my TTrS:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## EcoTX (Aug 6, 2011)

I am a die-hard VW diesel fan, I have only owned and driven these vehicles my whole life (well except a short stint with a '91 deVille), but I have never recommended the common rail diesels to anyone.
Don't get me wrong they are marvels of engineering, but due to the regulations that are increasingly pushing towards zero-emission cars I always felt their day was due.

VW had to see it coming but decided to keep pandering to all the greenies (the ones who are crying the most) instead of cashing out I guess.
Big *freaking* whoop they made a program to pass a test and got away with it for 6 years, can you blame them? 
Hell, VW is probably like "They tolerate a schedule 1 drug being openly sold to the public in a growing number of places, yet we nod and wink in a few cars and it's a **** storm?"

It was probably about time anyway since VW is #1 worldwide now, but what is strange is I see lots of newer direct injected gasoline engines spewing black smoke as well under WOT. #gassergate?
While we're going around wiping and analyzing everyone's tailpipe, lets look at all cars more closely as well as on the road testing implemented.
Most of my friends with higher mile gassers all have cat and emissions codes they have to clear at Autozone across the street before it will pass inspection, something about spark plug anti-foulers and P0420 codes...hmm

I would love to see some on-road tests of some of these vehicles, which exist out there in a much larger proportion than every VW diesel registered in this country combined I would be willing to bet.
When will gassers be receiving the same treatment that diesels have the last decade?
I believe the answer is very soon since gassers are getting more and more 'diesel'-like every year, finally being prodded and legislated to try and meet the demands a diesel engine has been capable of since the beginning...efficient work.

I find it hard to imagine how some dirty air from half a million cars for a few years is so bad in the billions of years timeline of earth and our history on it.
We are all breathing the same 'dirty' air that has simultaneously been subjected to and contained eons worth of 'emissions' from a world of sources on Earth and we are still fine.
It really seems the regulations and laws are geared more towards dense urban areas susceptible to smog, which I don't believe is solely a diesel exhaust problem.

Fortunately for the USA, we are a very spread out and rural place still, so lots of these sorts of laws have diminished weight in certain areas.
The EPA and California can make all the rules they want, but enforcing them over every square inch of this country is the rub.
It wouldn't surprise me if in 15 years California has a huge fleet of self driving little electric car air purifier units that drive around all day on their highways filtering and cleaning the air. 

Perhaps VW is just the tip of the iceberg for an emissions policy and regulation firestorm to change stuff up.
Given enough suits and resources, acronym agencies can choose to go after anyone or anything for a million different things I feel like.
This is not the first time they have stopped selling diesels here, in fact it has happened 3 times (4 if you count this) in the last 30 years. 
It is a constant back and forth with the EPA for VW since 1977, but this time I feel it's a giant money-grab and an agenda is being pushed to really try and rid of 'the peoples' diesel passenger cars.

Really though, in the end, I could care less if they stop selling diesels. 
I have a fleet of great ones I hope to enjoy till I can no longer drive. 
82 Pickup 1Z, 84 Rabbit 1V, 92 Jetta 1V, 96 B4V 1Z, 03 Jetta ALH, 06 Jetta BRM


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

Hawk said:


> VW should just say a huge F.U. to the whole world and just shut the company down.


Then what is everyone in TCL going to do with their lives?


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

zhenya00 said:


> Your argument is effectively the same as saying to the family of a murder victim 'sorry about your loss, but way worse stuff is happening in Syria right now, so we won't be investigating.'
> 
> Get a clue.
> :banghead:





dos said:


> Nice!
> 
> So basically no crime should be punished or no laws should actually be passed because there is always something worse. Nice strawman argument. If I want to walk up to someone's door and shoot them then take their car, no worries, ISIS is worse. I'll have to remember that ISIS excuse if I get pulled over for speeding because government bad.


Not even close; and I still hear bo-peep calling you, better get in line, and conform, the
FED is funding her efforts.

PLUS, GM killed people, and got a 900k fine.

Other companies do worse, FINED, and allowed to continue.

Grow up, don't sit in a captains chair and look at the small view-screen, get up and
see the entire picture.

Pollution laws are there because nature's srubbers are getting eradicated, and not
being replaced. EARTH was a jungle, with ten times the Co2 there is now, and
it was a lot hotter and humid. Eh, but who cares about history, lets re-write
it, and not count anything that doesn't fit the agenda...

What VW did, is BAD, sure, not saying it is NOT, but compared to what the OIL
industries dump in the oceans, and continue to do it because the fines are a cost
of doing business, they're not high enough to curtail the crimes. They have
wiped out 50% of the species that lived in the oceans, where's the $18 billion fines
to those people? 

Oh, I see, the vicious cycle that; OIL makes the fuel, fuel runs the cars,
cars then pollute; so when the automaker does bad, the fines are higher
to cover the crimes of the oil industry, Oh, I get it now...

The fines and punishments aren't going to stop it, EVER. The fines are the
licenses to continue to pollute; not till any government brings down the hammer
and says ENOUGH is ENOUGH, and stops it, PERIOD. They knew over a year
ago, allowed the sales of TDIs to continue. Sales should have been stopped till a FIX
was in for the existing ones, but no, Government can't do anything right when
it comes to ENFORCING THE LAW! Don't tell me about law, it's there to be
enforced, not to be interpreted after the fact. You read what the law says, then
you proceed with punishment. NOT; READ what it says, interpret it, then enforce
it based on your interpretation. The only LAWS the Government enforces
without interpretation is TAX laws; you ain't got a chance in hell when it comes
to taxes. Everything else, 'eh, we'll make something up that fits the situation.

VW should be fined, AND kicked out of the USA for a period of time, make
them buy back all the offending vehicles and have them crushed. Oh, no, can't
do that, that would put them out of business, and then they: CAN'T PAY TAXES!!
So, no, lets interpret the laws, fine them, shake our finger at them, and allow them to
continue to do business after they stepped all over our balls, sure, why not..

Wake up, nothing drastic is going to happen to VW, except that they bring on
themselves.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

PowerslavePA said:


> Not even close; and I still hear bo-peep calling you, better get in line, and conform, the
> FED is funding her efforts.
> 
> PLUS, GM killed people, and got a 900k fine.
> ...


The GM problem doesn't matter here.


----------



## moses_dx (Oct 1, 2014)

GM is using Italian engines in global trucks, they should be tested as well. I still think those terrible American v8 engines have something hidden, maybe someday the cat will be out of the bag

Enviado desde mi HP Slate7 Extreme mediante Tapatalk


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

Silly_me said:


> KY Jelly, a shoehorn, and a plunger.


I think I accidentally went to that website once.


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

moses_dx said:


> GM is using Italian engines in global trucks, they should be tested as well. I still think *those terrible American v8 engines* have something hidden, maybe someday the cat will be out of the bag
> 
> Enviado desde mi HP Slate7 Extreme mediante Tapatalk


Say what? :what:  :screwy:


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

moses_dx said:


> GM is using Italian engines in global trucks, they should be tested as well. I still think those terrible American v8 engines have something hidden, maybe someday the cat will be out of the bag
> 
> Enviado desde mi HP Slate7 Extreme mediante Tapatalk


You need to leave now.


----------



## Ambrose Wolfinger (Feb 21, 2005)

Regarding the congressional investigation in the US - I don't really see what they are trying to achieve, other than attention for the congressmen involved. It seemed more like a circus, based on some of the comments I read. I don't really see what their point is, other than getting to grill someone on TV and potentially make themselves look good? 

Also, saw this in the paper this morning. It seems to me it's just basically another form of ambulance chasing:

http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/...-volkswagen-over-unlawful-car-emissions.html/



> The city of Dallas plans to follow Harris County’s lead in filing a lawsuit against Volkswagen, alleging that the automaker violated air quality emission standards, city officials confirmed Wednesday.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

bill1975 said:


> other than attention for the congressmen involved.


These are our elected officials. They would do no such thing.



bill1975 said:


> It seemed more like a circus


The line of questioning went from plummage ruffling to this:










Rinse and repeat ad nauseum :laugh:


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

GoHomeBroke said:


> jesus ****ing christ.
> 
> . . .
> 
> ...


At some point, _In sha Allah_, I hope to develop the strength to not engage posters who refuse to understand that VW's scandalous global increase in NOx emissions DID kill people.

IS CONTINUING to kill people.

WILL CONTINUE to kill people.

Alas, today is not that day. :banghead:


----------



## adrew (Aug 15, 2003)

So, ah, Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton (who's had some legal trouble of his own) is suing the Obama administration for imposing clean air standards; today he announced that he is suing Volkswagen for violating them. Okay.

http://www.texastribune.org/2015/10/08/texas-sues-volkswagen-over-emissions-cheating/


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

Jay Leno's VW thoughts on The Nightly Show:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Chilcoot said:


> At some point, _In sha Allah_, I hope to develop the strength to not engage posters who refuse to understand that VW's scandalous global increase in NOx emissions DID kill people.
> 
> IS CONTINUING to kill people.
> 
> ...


the GLOBAL impact is akin to adding the emissions of 10M cars GLOBALLY.....that is only a 2.5% increase in total cars registered in the USA.

while the issue shouldn't be taken lightly, it's a friggin bump in the road, not a global Armageddon.

:facepalm:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

You'reDrunk said:


> it's a friggin bump in the road, not a global Armageddon.


Did you miss the capitalization? People are DYING here.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

You'reDrunk said:


> the GLOBAL impact is akin to adding the emissions of 10M cars GLOBALLY.....that is only a 2.5% increase in total cars registered in the USA.
> 
> while the issue shouldn't be taken lightly, it's a friggin bump in the road, not a global Armageddon.


I imagine that's true.

Not relevant to anything I wrote, but plausibly true.


----------



## Ambrose Wolfinger (Feb 21, 2005)

adrew said:


> So, ah, Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton (who's had some legal trouble of his own) is suing the Obama administration for imposing clean air standards; today he announced that he is suing Volkswagen for violating them. Okay.
> 
> http://www.texastribune.org/2015/10/08/texas-sues-volkswagen-over-emissions-cheating/


Does not surprise me. That guy is completely morally bankrupt. It's a race to the bottom, and today's Republican Party is leading that race by a mile.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

Just tried my luck today at my local VW dealer to see how much they would give as a trade-in for my 2013 Golf TDI DSG 4dr with Sunroof/Navigation. The mileage on the car is about 25K miles. KBB fair trade shows about $16,500 (and $17,500 for excellent condition). The dealer gave me a quote of $13,000 

That's like about %50 depreciation after I bought it new two years ago. 

I am interpreting that as "I do not want your TDI but if you insist, I will screw you"


----------



## VeeDubDriver (Oct 1, 2001)

Jack-DE said:


> Just tried my luck today at my local VW dealer to see how much they would give as a trade-in for my 2013 Golf TDI DSG 4dr with Sunroof/Navigation. The mileage on the car is about 25K miles. KBB fair trade shows about $16,500 (and $17,500 for excellent condition). The dealer gave me a quote of $13,000
> 
> That's like about %50 depreciation after I bought it new two years ago
> 
> I am interpreting that as "I do not want your TDI or if you insist, I will screw you"


With all due respect, why would a dealer want to take a vehicle in on trade that they know they are not allowed to sell?


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

VW is talking about compensating owners for lost value. What are they thinking, a few hundred bucks? :laugh:

I couldn't see them giving back thousands of dollars ... or would they?


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

VeeDubDriver said:


> With all due respect, why would a dealer want to take a vehicle in on trade that they know they are not allowed to sell?


They cannot sell them right now as CPO, but otherwise they can. He told me they will apply the fix once it is available and then sell it.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

Well, as far as the state of Missouri and the Gateway Vehicle Inspection Program is concerned, my TDI's emissions are juuuuuuuuuuust fine. Passed with flying colors! :laugh:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

thegoose said:


> Well, as far as the state of Missouri and the Gateway Vehicle Inspection Program is concerned, my TDI's emissions are juuuuuuuuuuust fine. Passed with flying colors! :laugh:


Your state is ok with having a murder machine on the roads? :sly:


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

Jack-DE said:


> Just tried my luck today at my local VW dealer to see how much they would give as a trade-in for my 2013 Golf TDI DSG 4dr with Sunroof/Navigation. The mileage on the car is about 25K miles. KBB fair trade shows about $16,500 (and $17,500 for excellent condition). The dealer gave me a quote of $13,000
> 
> That's like about %50 depreciation after I bought it new two years ago.
> 
> I am interpreting that as "I do not want your TDI but if you insist, I will screw you"


My dad tried the same thing with his TDI just to hear their response. 2011 A3 TDI trade-in for $9.5k

Patience is key to win as a consumer in this issue.


----------



## dos (Jul 5, 2009)

PowerslavePA said:


> Not even close; and I still hear bo-peep calling you, better get in line, and conform, the
> FED is funding her efforts.
> 
> PLUS, GM killed people, and got a 900k fine.
> ...


Drama, such wow, much speculation.

VW hasn't been fined anything yet and no one knows what they will be fined. No one has told VW they have to take all their toys home and leave the country, I guess you haven't seen they still sell cars here. The NHTSA is different from the EPA with different fines. Why was Bernie Madoff given a 150 year prison term and people who have killed got less?


----------



## Ambrose Wolfinger (Feb 21, 2005)

For those claiming that VW has been directly responsible for others losing their lives. Did anyone ever come up with a concrete number on how many people died specifically from VW's cheating?


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

Silly_me said:


> Your state is ok with having a murder machine on the roads? :sly:


Yep. Or you can think of it as further confirmation that the cheat works.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> KY Jelly, a shoehorn, and a plunger.


Sounds like a typical Thursday evening.


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

bill1975 said:


> For those claiming that VW has been directly responsible for others losing their lives. Did anyone ever come up with a concrete number on how many people died specifically from VW's cheating?


You missed the thread on that and the discussion was about 20 pages ago... I think.

Can we get a table of contents going on the first page?


----------



## Lifelong Obsession (Jul 24, 2011)

Don't know if anyone has posted it yet...but US copyright law (specifically the DMCA) may have kept independent researchers from investigating this earlier.

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/tech/story-dirty-emissions-…-and-copyright-law


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

2.0T_Convert said:


> The GM problem doesn't matter here.


And why the hell not? People DIED due to their cheating. It doesn't matter?
They knew about the problem for years, but as they say, it's only illegal IF
you get caught.



dos said:


> *Drama, such wow, much speculation.*
> 
> VW hasn't been fined anything yet and no one knows what they will be fined. No one has told VW they have to take all their toys home and leave the country, I guess you haven't seen they still sell cars here. The NHTSA is different from the EPA with different fines. Why was Bernie Madoff given a 150 year prison term and people who have killed got less?


READ and COMPREHEND much?

Just as EVERYONE ELSE is doing here, guessing, speculating, and so on.

I SAID, they SHOULD be fined, and kicked out, not THEY WILL, or even eluded to that's
what would happen. That is what THEY SHOULD DO! Learn how to read ENGLISH. 
I said:


ME! said:


> VW *should* be fined, AND kicked out of the USA for a period of time, make
> them buy back all the offending vehicles and have them crushed. Oh, no, can't
> do that, that would put them out of business, and then they: CAN'T PAY TAXES!!
> So, no, lets interpret the laws, fine them, shake our finger at them, and allow them to
> continue to do business after they stepped all over our balls, sure, why not..


Since when does SHOULD mean WHAT IS. Not on this planet...

Where the 'F do you see I said they were told anything, or guessing? I said, that is
what SHOULD happen to them. I think you should go back to school and brush up on 
comprehension.

They already lost billions in stock, and as I said what they brought on themselves,
FOR CHEATING! More is to come, you'll see. I bet you say DICK when I am proven
right; but I won't forget, YOU will. Even if 50% of what I said happens, it's better
than your rhetorical bull****.

EVERYONE here has no clue to what's going on, or what's to come; it's a free for all. 

Don't you dare twist my text, as Gospel, when I said SHOULD, and not WILL!

Dolt...


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

EcoTX said:


> I am a die-hard VW diesel fan, I have only owned and driven these vehicles my whole life (well except a short stint with a '91 deVille), but I have never recommended the common rail diesels to anyone.
> Don't get me wrong they are marvels of engineering, but due to the regulations that are increasingly pushing towards zero-emission cars I always felt their day was due.


I agree with all of this, but seeing how much diesel sells for VW. It's a lot like for example, Ford announcing tomorrow they have decided to stop selling the F-150 (Heck there was a massive $hit storm for months and years when they dropped the Ranger here) Another example would be if Jeep said "We've decided to drop the Wrangler, seeing that we can't get it to meet emissions requirements any longer". TDI is the bloodline for the brand, other than GTI's which account for niche sales, Passats get fleeted out in mid spec to rental agencies and the rest buy strip model, 2.0, 2.5 & 1.4L Jettas. 

The diesel community would have shown up with pitchforks, had VW pulled out of the market back in 2008. I'm not sure what would have been the lesser of two evils?


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

PowerslavePA said:


> And why the hell not? People DIED due to their cheating. It doesn't matter?
> They knew about the problem for years, but as they say, it's only illegal IF
> you get caught.
> 
> ...


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

PowerslavePA said:


> Don't you dare twist my text, as Gospel, when I said SHOULD, and not WILL!


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Not angered, pointing out how people can't comprehend English.

Pointing out other peoples shortcoming ALWAYS makes people think
the person who did that, is mad. Truth always makes people mad.
He said I said something I didn't say, and I pointed it out, so it
looks maddening to people who don't like being corrected and
singled out as a dolt.

Oh, and as if the emissions thing wasn't bad enough, see the latest?



> Already reeling from the recent diesel emissions scandal, automobile manufacturer Volkswagen is facing additional penalties and class action lawsuits following today's admission on Capitol Hill that many of its most popular models used Soylent Green to increase fuel economy during Environmental Protection Agency tests.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rob-k...-its-cars-run-on-soylent-green_b_8263948.html

As I said, they should, Should, SHOULD be kicked out, fined, and forced to
buy back the cars and have them scrapped. SHOULD, SHOULD, SHOULD,
SHOULD, was that clear?

In case you missed it, SHOULD...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

PowerslavePA said:


> Not angered, pointing out how people can't comprehend English.
> 
> Pointing out other peoples shortcoming ALWAYS makes people think
> the person who did that, is mad. Truth always makes people mad.
> ...


Are you sure that isn't a story from The Onion? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

Reading these last two pages like...


----------



## Vag*Tech (Sep 3, 2013)

The Emissions did not kill a single person. I can not believe the PC crap on this thread.


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

As a life long VW owner I have to say I am growing very disappointed at VW's response to this. Particularly the fact that they don't appear to be prepared to offer a buyback option for disgruntled owners that no longer want the car due to VW misrepresenting them now that the emissions issue has been dragged to daylight. 

At a minimum the folks with the older models should be offered the option of a buyback, replacement, or repair with what is required. 

Offering a buyback would be the right thing to do in my opinion. And possibly the only option that will save their reputation with current owners.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

UncleJB said:


> As a life long VW owner I have to say I am growing very disappointed at VW's response to this. Particularly the fact that they don't appear to be prepared to offer a buyback option for disgruntled owners that no longer want the car due to VW misrepresenting them now that the emissions issue has been dragged to daylight.
> 
> At a minimum the folks with the older models should be offered the option of a buyback, replacement, or repair with what is required.
> 
> Offering a buyback would be the right thing to do in my opinion. And possibly the only option that will save their reputation with current owners.


Per Horn yesterday, the engine configuration of the Gen 1 cars without AdBlue (the older ones) still have to be looked at by VW. Before thinking about buying back, they need to figure out a plan for them to gauge costs. I don't think we'll have any idea of that for at least a few months... 

Yet, he did not completly shoot down the buy back idea during testimony.... So only time will tell...


----------



## Sortafast (Oct 6, 2001)

PowerslavePA said:


> Oh, and as if the emissions thing wasn't bad enough, see the latest?
> 
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rob-k...-its-cars-run-on-soylent-green_b_8263948.html


People who don't understand satire are the best. :laugh:

This thread just keeps on giving. opcorn:


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

UncleJB said:


> As a life long VW owner I have to say I am growing very disappointed at VW's response to this. Particularly the fact that they don't appear to be prepared to offer a buyback option for disgruntled owners that no longer want the car due to VW misrepresenting them now that the emissions issue has been dragged to daylight.
> 
> At a minimum the folks with the older models should be offered the option of a buyback, replacement, or repair with what is required.
> 
> Offering a buyback would be the right thing to do in my opinion. And possibly the only option that will save their reputation with current owners.


You aren't getting a buy back or a replacement, talk about being greedy. You'll get a fix and perhaps some compensation if your mpg/power takes a hit. That's all you should be offered in my opinion.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

MXTHOR3 said:


> You aren't getting a buy back or a replacement, talk about being greedy. You'll get a fix and perhaps some compensation if your mpg/power takes a hit. That's all you should be offered in my opinion.


The fix is likely a year to two years out... What about people who need (not neccesarily want) to sell/trade thier cars in the meantime? We've already seen real world examples of cars losing an extra 25% of value compared to KBB in the past two weeks... 

Do you think those people have any case for extra compensation? Or are they supposed to hold out, see what the fix is, and what the market can bear in terms of the used car prices?


----------



## yakovshap (Oct 30, 2001)

Jack-DE said:


> Just tried my luck today at my local VW dealer to see how much they would give as a trade-in for my 2013 Golf TDI DSG 4dr with Sunroof/Navigation. The mileage on the car is about 25K miles. KBB fair trade shows about $16,500 (and $17,500 for excellent condition). The dealer gave me a quote of $13,000
> 
> That's like about %50 depreciation after I bought it new two years ago.
> 
> I am interpreting that as "I do not want your TDI but if you insist, I will screw you"


You will never get KBB trade in value(even without scandal). My coworker have tried to get KBB trade in value on his Subaru. Dealer response - KBB is overvalued.


----------



## Charles Devine (Aug 22, 2007)

MXTHOR3 said:


> You aren't getting a buy back or a replacement, talk about being greedy. You'll get a fix and perhaps some compensation if your mpg/power takes a hit. That's all you should be offered in my opinion.


I agree with you but the compensation would need to be significant to make up the losses of if this had never been discovered. I tried to explain below.

"Never buy a vehicle as an investment" is what my and most other parents said when growing up. I've kept this to heart but the fact of the matter is the TDI had a very high resale value compared to other vehicles due to its "clean diesel" technology and eco friendly nature. 

-My point is, do I feel they should buy my vehicle back? No. 
-Do I feel I should be compensated for the immediate hit my vehicle took to resale value due to tarnished value because of deceit? Absolutely! 
-Do I feel as though I should be compensated for paying over 2k more for my vehicle over the TSI that will get around the same MPG's (most likely) aftrer this recall? Absolutely! 

I'm no longer getting what VW advertised (a clean eco friendly, high MPG vehicle), and over the course of the life of ownership you are looking at if you keep it for 10 years ~6K in lost revenue (including price difference between TSI, hit in resale value, and mpg) over if this situation never happened or been discovered.

-Charles


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

I'm guilty of speculating as well, but we really need to see what happens with those MPG/power numbers once whatever fix VW finally comes out with.. If you are getting similar mileage to the 1.8T (After the fix), I'd definitely expect to get some sort of cash back due to the premium you paid for the diesel engine. I'm guessing VW will have to make the price point for the TDIs a bit better to get the new cars (post fix) off the lot. As for the used market, I think they're just going to increase in value. 

Personally I don't care about resale as I drive my cars into the ground, but I do understand where you're coming from. Hopefully after this is all said and done you aren't left with a sour taste in your mouth.


----------



## Sledge (May 15, 2005)

Four more OEMs are under the diesel microscope.

http://www.theguardian.com/environm...da-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row?CMP=twt_gu


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

Wow. This is more of a quagmire with each passing day. So glad I traded in mine in May.

Wonder what sort of compensation I will receive for the pain and suffering I am experiencing due to the trauma of having owned one. Where's a good ambulance-chasing lawyer when you need one?


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Sledge said:


> Four more OEMs are under the diesel microscope.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/environm...da-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row?CMP=twt_gu


Apparently, you can emit as much NOx as you want in the real world, as long as you don't have a "defeat device".


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

Sledge said:


> Four more OEMs are under the diesel microscope.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/environm...da-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row?CMP=twt_gu


Anyone else still think diesel is going to stick around after this?


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

I believe that if the technical "solution" for the Gen 1 vehicles is years out, VW will have to offer a buyback as an _option_. Based on yesterday's testimony, it sounds like they have no idea what the Gen 1 fix will be. They will be discussing "scenarios" with the EPA in several weeks. I would think that if they come to some agreement with EPA (& perhaps other US agencies) on how long these cars can stay on the road without being fixed, VW will then offer up a couple of different options for owners. Like:

a) stay in the car you have & wait for hardware fix, maybe get some token 'loyalty' payment as well
b) get out of the car with a very generous trade-in for a new VAG product
c) outright buyback at some generous multiplier of KBB value

There is no way they can leave people in limbo for over a year, which, based on the Gen3/Gen2 timeline, sounds very, very likely for the Gen1s.

Not sure why people in this thread are so adamant about telling us owners what we will get and why we do/don't deserve it. There is no precedent for a scandal of this magnitude, and if there was an easy way out if it, VW would have never put themselves in this position in the first place.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

PowerslavePA said:


> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rob-k...-its-cars-run-on-soylent-green_b_8263948.html


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

btitus said:


> I believe that if the technical "solution" for the Gen 1 vehicles is years out, VW will have to offer a buyback as an _option_. Based on yesterday's testimony, it sounds like they have no idea what the Gen 1 fix will be. They will be discussing "scenarios" with the EPA in several weeks. I would think that if they come to some agreement with EPA (& perhaps other US agencies) on how long these cars can stay on the road without being fixed, VW will then offer up a couple of different options for owners. Like:
> 
> a) stay in the car you have & wait for hardware fix, maybe get some token 'loyalty' payment as well
> b) get out of the car with a very generous trade-in for a new VAG product
> ...


I think you bring up a key point. VW must do something to "make whole" the people that want to trade in or sell their vehicle (doesn't really matter WHY they would want to sell) -- you just can't expect people to wait around a year or two to have their vehicle fixed while resale value tanks without accommodating the innocent party.

We have another baby on the way, and I'm considering possibly getting a larger vehicle within the next few months. Why should I have to take a bath on the trade-in for VW's f**kup while a fix is prepared?


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

Did we talk about this yet? This is an interesting take on the buyback- Lemon Law.

Top Auto Exec: “Volkswagen Is Lehman Brothers," Not Too Big to Fail
http://www.thedrive.com/article/429/top-auto-exec-says-volkswagen-is-lehman-brothers-not-too-big-to-fail




> As Volkswagen of America CEO Michael Horn (pictured) testifies before Congress on Oct. 8, a top executive at a leading auto manufacturer describes the potential fallout of the German carmaker as “devastating.”
> 
> 
> “The fix for these engines is likely be to locking the software so the engine is EPA compliant,” the executive, who asked to remain anonymous, tells The Drive. “Most likely, owners won’t want the cars anymore, and then the lemon laws kick in. Those will force VW to buy back every single car it sold in the United States. When you really start to drill down on buybacks globally, it’s not hard to get to $100 billion out of the gate. And that doesn’t even include the fines.”


----------



## KARMANN_20V (May 25, 2005)

Hajduk said:


> Apparently, you can emit as much NOx as you want in the real world, as long as you don't have a "defeat device".


That's DIR :thumbup:


----------



## gonzo08452 (Apr 17, 2006)

https://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-vw...rted-reluctant-diesel-050622464--finance.html

someone on Vortex spoke to the press


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Vag*Tech said:


> The Emissions did not kill a single person. I can not believe the PC crap on this thread.


THIS


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

PowerslavePA said:


> Oh, and as if the emissions thing wasn't bad enough, see the latest?
> 
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rob-k...-its-cars-run-on-soylent-green_b_8263948.html
> ...



You do understand that is a "comedy" piece as Huff Post calls it? Take a deep breath... 





Maximum_Download said:


> Anyone else still think diesel is going to stick around after this?


I said it earlier in a post, but VW's diesel passenger cars were already on the chopping block by 2020 at the latest. They've been telling the press for a year now. It will be too expensive and too complicated to try and make them pass under the new emissions regs coming. This probably just accelerates that process.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

gonzo08452 said:


> https://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-vw...rted-reluctant-diesel-050622464--finance.html
> 
> someone on Vortex spoke to the press


They have been pulling quotes out of our forums.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> They have been pulling quotes out of our forums.


last I saw you OK'd that in one of your posts.

looks like they took you up on the offer.

so is vortex a minority/women owned business since you are one of the owners????


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

[email protected] said:


> They have been pulling quotes out of our forums.


You should change your handle to _[email protected]_


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

thegoose said:


> Did we talk about this yet? This is an interesting take on the buyback- Lemon Law.
> 
> Top Auto Exec: “Volkswagen Is Lehman Brothers," Not Too Big to Fail
> http://www.thedrive.com/article/429/top-auto-exec-says-volkswagen-is-lehman-brothers-not-too-big-to-fail


Lol, now we're at $100 billion?  everyone pick a number and go put it in a trendy news piece, post it on Facebook, and join the madness.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> I said it earlier in a post, but *VW's diesel passenger cars were already on the chopping block by 2020* at the latest. They've been telling the press for a year now. It will be too expensive and too complicated to try and make them pass under the new emissions regs coming. This probably just accelerates that process.


That's news to me, and I think a lot of people in this post. And I think it bears repeating.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

vbora01 said:


> Lol, now we're at $100 billion?  everyone pick a number and go put it in a trendy news piece, post it on Facebook, and join the madness.
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


There should be a 'Price is Right' type of game for this: the media outlet that comes the closest without going over wins an EPA approved Jetta Sportwagen TDI.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

...and 130+ pages and no realization that there will never be a TDI Alltrack Sportwagen? 










:vampire:


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> ...and 130+ pages and no realization that there will never be a TDI Alltrack Sportwagen?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I hate you!


----------



## Midwesterner (Sep 9, 2003)

And no GTD....


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

Mazda 3s said:


> I think you bring up a key point. VW must do something to "make whole" the people that want to trade in or sell their vehicle (doesn't really matter WHY they would want to sell) -- you just can't expect people to wait around a year or two to have their vehicle fixed while resale value tanks without accommodating the innocent party.
> 
> We have another baby on the way, and I'm considering possibly getting a larger vehicle within the next few months. Why should I have to take a bath on the trade-in for VW's f**kup while a fix is prepared?


They really do. I was talking to another one of my (many) co-workers who has a TDI in the family (his wife's) who has remained pretty quiet during our morning water-cooler conversations about this issue. It turns out that she had been planning on trading in the car shortly before this broke, and they are now stuck in limbo, unable to get into the new car she was hoping for. If they continue to drag this out much longer without giving current owners SOME reasonable option, I think they are going to end up with a TON of lawsuits from owners that could have been avoided if they weren't dragging their feet.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

zhenya00 said:


> They really do. I was talking to another one of my (many) co-workers who has a TDI in the family (his wife's) who has remained pretty quiet during our morning water-cooler conversations about this issue. It turns out that she had been planning on trading in the car shortly before this broke, and they are now stuck in limbo, unable to get into the new car she was hoping for. If they continue to drag this out much longer without giving current owners SOME reasonable option, I think they are going to end up with a TON of lawsuits from owners that could have been avoided *if they weren't dragging their feet*.


you are assuming they are. I have a feeling the fix isn't going to be cheap or easy.....and when the fix is identified, the logistics of getting it made, scheduled for install, etc; this all takes time. look how long it took GM to replace the ignition switches....well over a year. for a single part that takes 2 hours to install.


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

You'reDrunk said:


> you are assuming they are. I have a feeling the fix isn't going to be cheap or easy.....and when the fix is identified, the logistics of getting it made, scheduled for install, etc; this all takes time. look how long it took GM to replace the ignition switches....well over a year. for a single part that takes 2 hours to install.


The feet-dragging is that they are holding owners in limbo with cars that have tanked in resale value and cannot reasonably be re-sold. I don't expect that they will fix every vehicle immediately. I would - and the owners I speak to daily do - expect that by this point in time there should be some sort of communication with the owners, outlining the plan forward, and a reasonable options put on the table for folks who need or want to get out from under the cars before the fixes can be made. At this point VW has locked up tens of thousands of dollars of liquidity for these owners. _That's_ what will result in real lawsuits in the end.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Hajduk said:


> Apparently, you can emit as much NOx as you want in the real world, as long as you don't have a "defeat device".


I know I keep harping on the whole Bosch connection, but I still don't completely agree with the whole defeat device thing. 

Any vehicle that deliberately performs differently during testing conditions is defeating the test. VW did this with one specific type of fuel/ignition/urea/LNT map based on a set of sensor inputs. If they were doing it without a detailed set of sensor inputs, and instead doing it with a (possibly poorly) running "regular" map, it would still be cheating. Why do you think cars show up with flat spots in the HP/torque curves or crap gearing? It's not done to limit performance in the real world - the flat spots are there for the testing. The fact that Honda or whoever have not figured it out yet is only evidence that they are not at the top of the gaming the system game. I do remain unconvinced that VW is alone in this level of subterfuge and I am 100% sure that IC engineering teams at every automaker are under pretty heavy scrutiny right now.

Again, I AM NOT EXCUSING VW here. I am saying that the cheating is so pervasive and so ingrained into the system that it is not a VW thing. It's an internal combustion thing. And frankly, with Tesla's energy credit trading scheme going on, it's an *every* thing.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

atomicalex said:


> I know I keep harping on the whole Bosch connection, but I still don't completely agree with the whole defeat device thing.
> 
> Any vehicle that deliberately performs differently during testing conditions is defeating the test. VW did this with one specific type of fuel/ignition/urea/LNT map based on a set of sensor inputs. If they were doing it without a detailed set of sensor inputs, and instead doing it with a (possibly poorly) running "regular" map, it would still be cheating. Why do you think cars show up with flat spots in the HP/torque curves or crap gearing? It's not done to limit performance in the real world - the flat spots are there for the testing. The fact that Honda or whoever have not figured it out yet is only evidence that they are not at the top of the gaming the system game. *I do remain unconvinced that VW is alone in this level of subterfuge and I am 100% sure that IC engineering teams at every automaker are under pretty heavy scrutiny right now.*
> 
> Again, I AM NOT EXCUSING VW here. I am saying that the cheating is so pervasive and so ingrained into the system that it is not a VW thing. It's an internal combustion thing. And frankly, with Tesla's energy credit trading scheme going on, it's an *every* thing.


yep. I agree VW was just the 1st to get caught.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

Midwesterner said:


> And no GTD....


With no GT Diesel coming, maybe they'll send us a GT Gas Golf: call it "GTG". 
It has a nice ring to it.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

Maximum_Download said:


> That's news to me, and I think a lot of people in this post. And I think it bears repeating.


Well clearly it wasn't newsworthy or juicy enough to get much press. 

Volkswagen was already working on a substantial EV/Hybrid strategy and we're already seeing a lot of that with the new european Passat and other MQB/MLB vehicles in the future. Things like the GTE models are a nod towards those that would like performance and economy while still offering a regular hybrid with more of a focus on pure economy. Either way, VW knew that the future of diesel here and ultimately Europe was already numbered. 

-j


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

You'reDrunk said:


> yep. I agree VW was just the 1st to get caught.


And since most of the rest of the competition doesn't build any (or many) diesels it will probably prove to be the most egregious for the passenger car market, at least for the U.S.

I have no idea how widespread this will prove to be in Europe, but I'd think likely pretty far. It's fodder for the politicians though, so I'm going to suppose that this will eventually kill diesel car production for Europe. Maybe not _immediately_, but in the long term certainly and probably in the medium term. I'd imagine most diesel engine programs are shut down at this point, or are getting minimal investment until they see how this pans out.


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

MXTHOR3 said:


> You aren't getting a buy back or a replacement, talk about being greedy. You'll get a fix and perhaps some compensation if your mpg/power takes a hit. That's all you should be offered in my opinion.


I don't have a diesel in my driveway so I am not being greedy. Just getting disappointed as mentioned.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

All of these pages of dry talk and still nobody knows exactly what's going to happen, which is totally normal... Just sit tight, and wait for VW to come out with a solution. No need for some of the arguments going on over this. At the end, opinions are like a**holes, everybody's got one.


----------



## Lifelong Obsession (Jul 24, 2011)

wannabeeuroTR said:


> All of these pages of dry talk and still nobody knows exactly what's going to happen, which is totally normal... Just sit tight, and wait for VW to come out with a solution. No need for some of the arguments going on over this. At the end, opinions are like a**holes, everybody's got one.


:thumbup:


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

wannabeeuroTR said:


> All of these pages of dry talk and still nobody knows exactly what's going to happen, which is totally normal... Just sit tight, and wait for VW to come out with a solution. No need for some of the arguments going on over this. At the end, opinions are like a**holes, everybody's got* three*.


FTFY


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

atomicalex said:


> I know I keep harping on the whole Bosch connection, but I still don't completely agree with the whole defeat device thing.
> 
> Any vehicle that deliberately performs differently during testing conditions is defeating the test. VW did this with one specific type of fuel/ignition/urea/LNT map based on a set of sensor inputs. If they were doing it without a detailed set of sensor inputs, and instead doing it with a (possibly poorly) running "regular" map, it would still be cheating. Why do you think cars show up with flat spots in the HP/torque curves or crap gearing? It's not done to limit performance in the real world - the flat spots are there for the testing. The fact that Honda or whoever have not figured it out yet is only evidence that they are not at the top of the gaming the system game. I do remain unconvinced that VW is alone in this level of subterfuge and I am 100% sure that IC engineering teams at every automaker are under pretty heavy scrutiny right now.
> 
> Again, I AM NOT EXCUSING VW here. I am saying that the cheating is so pervasive and so ingrained into the system that it is not a VW thing. It's an internal combustion thing. And frankly, with Tesla's energy credit trading scheme going on, it's an *every* thing.


If this is true then this is the end for passenger car diesels unless governments decide the NOx standards are too high.


----------



## SpeedyD (Jun 9, 1999)

MXTHOR3 said:


> You aren't getting a buy back or a replacement, talk about being greedy. You'll get a fix and perhaps some compensation if your mpg/power takes a hit. That's all you should be offered in my opinion.


Really? For knowingly and fraudulently being sold a defective product?


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

I am re-posting this so there is no confusion, straight from Jamie:



[email protected] said:


> Well clearly it wasn't newsworthy or juicy enough to get much press.
> 
> Volkswagen was already working on a substantial EV/Hybrid strategy and we're already seeing a lot of that with the new european Passat and other MQB/MLB vehicles in the future. Things like the GTE models are a nod towards those that would like performance and economy while still offering a regular hybrid with more of a focus on pure economy.* Either way, VW knew that the future of diesel here and ultimately Europe was already numbered. *
> 
> -j


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

WHich brings me to the most important question: When do we get the GTE?


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> Well clearly it wasn't newsworthy or juicy enough to get much press.


We have a thread on it. But we are not the press, so.... :laugh:


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

MXTHOR3 said:


> You aren't getting a buy back or a replacement, talk about being greedy. You'll get a fix and perhaps some compensation if your mpg/power takes a hit. That's all you should be offered in my opinion.


This post ignores the loss of value of those fixed and under-performing vehicles. That's what the compensation needs to address. Even if VW manages to magically fix the cars and maintain power and MPG levels, the sheer volume of bad press we've seen so far will keep the values of affected TDIs under what they would be if no scandal had taken place.


----------



## ElixXxeR (Jan 18, 2005)

Yeah, buh-bye consumer diesels.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row?CMP=twt_gu



The Guardian said:


> Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda and Mitsubishi have joined the growing list of manufacturers whose diesel cars are known to emit significantly more pollution on the road than in regulatory tests, according to data obtained by the Guardian.


----------



## Parklife (Feb 23, 1999)

Just posted by our friends at CR.


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

Parklife said:


> Just posted by our friends at CR.


Those differences aren't as dramatic as many speculated.


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

Sporin said:


> Those differences aren't as dramatic as many speculated.


Which could suggest the major issue is longevity of the emissions systems.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

Maximum_Download said:


> WHich brings me to the most important question: When do we get the GTE?


Tiguan was mentioned in Frankfurt by VW as coming here. There are others planned as well, but given everything else going on, who knows what's going to happen and when.


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

Sporin said:


> Those differences aren't as dramatic as many speculated.


shocking...


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Parklife said:


> Just posted by our friends at CR.


 Looking forward to watching as I trust CR.


----------



## genjy (Aug 7, 2005)

CR video means Prius owners now out-smugging TDI owners by a lot.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

Sporin said:


> Those differences aren't as dramatic as many speculated.


Yeah it actually isn't a particularly big deal. I agree with others that have said long term durability is quite possibly the biggest issue.



genjy said:


> CR video means Prius owners now out-smugging TDI owners by a lot.


:laugh:


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

improvius said:


> Which could suggest the major issue is longevity of the emissions systems.


Exactly. If it were as simple as running in test mode all the time, why didn't they make it the default program?

This is only part of the answer.


----------



## rlfletch (Jun 11, 2000)

Maximum_Download said:


> WHich brings me to the most important question: When do we get the GTE?


This. They better step this up and quickly for the Golf.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Parklife said:


> Just posted by our friends at CR.


VW just made CR's decade :laugh:



Sporin said:


> Those differences aren't as dramatic as many speculated.


I'd like to know what else is happening in cheat mode, how much more wear and tear the emissions equipment goes through.......


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

DerSpiegel said:


> This post ignores the loss of value of those fixed and under-performing vehicles. That's what the compensation needs to address. Even if VW manages to magically fix the cars and maintain power and MPG levels, the sheer volume of bad press we've seen so far will keep the values of affected TDIs under what they would be if no scandal had taken place.


I agree, if there is a mpg/power hit after the fix is out owners need to be compensated for it. My disagreement stems from someone thinking outright replacement or buyback was fair or even warranted.

If you look at some of the tests performed in 'normal' mode (read the second last page of this thread) the impact isn't as severe and people think (or perhaps hope) they are.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

Silly_me said:


> I'd like to know what else is happening in cheat mode, how much more wear and tear the emissions equipment goes through.......


Here's an anecdote FWIW: I've seen DPFs fail at an alarming rate on our local transit system's 2007+ diesel buses. They also have a tendency after a while to go into some sort of "safe" mode where the operator has to pull over, turn off the bus, and disconnect the battery for 30 seconds to reset it in order for the trip to continue. 

I realize we're talking particulate matter in the case of the buses and not NOx like with VW. However, if that is standard fare for a fully operational emissions control system, it would never fly with most passenger car customers. The transit system switched to natural gas buses in 2013 with a primary objective of reduced maintenance as well.


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

According to Spiegel 42/2015, a planned successor for the Phaeton, supposed to come out end of 2016, has been axed in the wake of dieselgate. Only an all electric version is still under discussion. No link, because print.

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/un...-phaeton-nachfolger-gestrichen-a-1057037.html

https://translate.google.com/transl...-gestrichen-a-1057037.html&edit-text=&act=url


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

Kar98 said:


> According to Spiegel 42/2015, a planned successor for the Phaeton, supposed to come out end of 2016, has been axed in the wake of dieselgate. Only an all electric version is still under discussion. No link, because print.
> 
> http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/un...-phaeton-nachfolger-gestrichen-a-1057037.html
> 
> https://translate.google.com/transl...-gestrichen-a-1057037.html&edit-text=&act=url


Hmmm...back on page 124:



silverspeedbuggy said:


> First things that came to mind:
> - Axe the Phaeton
> - Sell off a brand or two
> - Substantially raise the price of the Chiron (I actually immediately thought to cancel it altogether and shutter Bugatti, but the model is nearly finished development, so why kill it?)




I realize it's all pure speculation at this point (killing the Phaeton), but now is not the time to bring out a large, expensive, brash car to a beleagured brand.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> You do understand that is a "comedy" piece as Huff Post calls it? Take a deep breath...


Seeing how gullible people are, to prove a point... After this, people will know, wanted
to see how long it would take. I mean, all the other bull**** going on here, what's
a little more?



Vag*Tech said:


> The Emissions did not kill a single person. I can not believe the PC crap on this thread.


Yep, but the GM ignition switch scandal killed at least 100 people.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

atomicalex said:


> Looking forward to watching as I trust CR.


Love it! Well-done, CR. I wonder if you could just code the TC module to off?


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

atomicalex said:


> Love it! Well-done, CR. I wonder if you could just code the TC module to off?


it was brought up on a local VW forum that they weren't measuring the NOx output during the test though, and just assuming that the emissions were met the same as they were in the EPA testings. and also that the steering might play a part in the cheat mode, which was being used during their tests.



> The controversy is about emissions, they are assuming that they were truly able to put the car in what they thought was "cheat mode" however they neglected to mention that one of the inputs required is that there is no input from the steering wheel sensor.
> 
> If the theory that they were in "cheat mode" were correct, they would have had to produce evidence to show there was a difference in emissions.
> 
> They did not state if the tests that they performed for mileage were the same standard as used by the EPA. There was no negative control either. I do not trust this report.


----------



## nyexx (Dec 12, 2014)

The test didn't actually prove anything. They didn't actually get the cars into cheat mode. Volkswagen's system is more complicated than just disabling traction nannies and a speed sensor.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

nyexx said:


> The test didn't actually prove anything. They didn't actually get the cars into cheat mode. Volkswagen's system is more complicated than just disabling traction nannies and a speed sensor.


 And you know this how? For all we know, CR asked VW how to do it and they coughed it up in exchange for a promise not to reveal the source. Hell, Bosch might have coughed it up.


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

atomicalex said:


> And you know this how? For all we know, CR asked VW how to do it and they coughed it up in exchange for a promise not to reveal the source. Hell, Bosch might have coughed it up.


Because people can't accept anything nowadays without some sort of paycheck. Give him $100, show him the video, I bet he'll be happy.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Maximum_Download said:


> WHich brings me to the most important question: When do we get the GTE?


Speak of the devil

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/09/2016-volkswagen-golf-gte-first-drive-review/


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

*I should probably break this in to smaller posts, but...*

On how many people know: Impossible to say. I can see both sides of the coin. Without knowing how many work on what it's difficult to say. Could two engineers pull it off ? I doubt it.. could a few collude to make it happen? Sure. All it takes is for someone not to pass it up the line and declare the 'new tuning chip/tweaks' are working, demo it, and get it out the door. Just today we got phone call from the main bank asking for papers. papers we dropped off at our bank a month ago. They apologized and that was that. Until a few hours later when someone else from the main bank called asking for the same thing. It can be that easy - someone didn't deliver papers - someone didn't note we were called. Possibly with the intention of fixing it "soon", but it snowballs until they introduce more controls leading to modern day systems that would likely pass. 

At what point do you step forward and admit you cheated? The pressure would be ENORMOUS.

I don't think Horn knew anything until he was told - why would he? If the above is true and a certain number of people colluded to make it happen.. past a certain level of management they would have no way to know. "I never got those documents..." Doesn't make it right, just saying I can see how it could be done in a big company.. akin to someone hiding backdoors in software.

On making it right: I have a 2009 tdi wagon. I don't think I deserve a new vehicle but it has changed how I (we, my wife too) feel about the car. I would be in favour of switching to a different VW but it has to be attractive to do so. Personally the options I would like are 1) buyback at best market value + a little (say +25% or so). Reasoning that trade in value for the foreseeable future is hurt. Gives me the option to walk away from VW or not. 2) trade in + BIG incentives. They offered 2,000 loyalty bucks, at least double on that + fair market value on the vehicle (not trade in, but market). Gives me more reason to stay with them, let them re-earn my trust 3) Fix it but given a realistic time frame and explanation of fix. Horn mentioned "at least a year." For some that will be too long, for some it will not be. _In my case_ if the fix involves losing trunk space I would have to sell/trade the car. My mother is in a wheelchair and I need that trunk space to put her chair in when we take her places - this is a requirement for me. We had considered trading the TDI (where we live AWD is becoming important), before this happened, now selling/trading would be more difficult or of less value - which brings me back to 1 or 2. Other people may be perfectly happy to wait it out, that's great for them. We are looking at a crossover/suv. We were considering a few and one of which was the Tiguan. Using 1 above it gives us the choice of walking away from VW to what we want more (and spend more), or "settle" for the Tiguan because the price is attractive in option 2. 

I don't think in the above I'm looking to soak VW or get a new car for nothing. Just thinking that would be doing right by me and a reasonable request. It's a really fun car to drive and we like it, but the fraud side leaves a bitter taste.. is that what NOx tastes like?  Our circumstances have changed and the avenue to switching vehicles just got more difficult because of VW's actions, not ours. Our options right now are very limited and we feel like we'd left dangling.

The TDI purchase was based on the distance we drove at the time and the 'clean' factor. Around here diesel is generally cheaper or slightly above gas.

I'm not a technical car guy type. But when I look at what has to be done to make our car meet regulations, according to what Horn said, it seems like a lot - and a lot of waiting. Engineer the fix, verify it passes, verify its safety, pay for parts, repair, loaner car while it's being done, likely warranty the parts they put in, unlikely but warranty parts that could be affected in ways they didn't anticipate down the road, possibly offer road side if the tank takes out the spare tire, possibly compensate for lost value (monetary or performance)... After waiting a year from the yet announced fix? I can easily see how a modest buyback in or a slightly more generous trade in would be in their interest and mine. A reasonable buyback or enticing trade in program would give immediate restitution to people and go a long way to showing they actually want to make it right.

Don't get me wrong. A fix has to be developed, approved, etc regardless because some will want to keep their vehicle - but offering a reasonable buyback or a more generous trade in would clear quite a bit of time off the schedule I would imagine, possibly curry favour with the various protection boards in the US and Canada.

Anyway, I don't think my views on making it right are out of line when you're looking at an older vehicle with an unknown timeline to repair other than "at least a year"

Just give us options.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Ok, that thread died. The VCDS thing would not be shared by CR, too big of a can of worms there and I would avoid mentioning it if they did, too.


----------



## Aw614 (May 9, 2001)

yeah there is a huge can of worms with that...deleted that post

on the related note, the mode CR did works on gas cars too...


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Got my TDI inspected today, so I got at least another year!
No emissions tests in PA; $20 for 20 minutes of waiting...
Well, there was the hour it took to change the rear brake pads
yesterday...

PLUS? My DPF is cracked, and I am blowing soot at W.O.T.
Whoa, watch out, don't get behind me, you're gonna die, with
all thet NOx and rolling coal...

What's that? You're on the road with semi-trucks spewing that
into the air all the time? Hmmm, that doesn't add up, but no
bother, the EPA will do something about it, SOME day...


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Holy ****.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...lkswagen-probe-may-reveal-failure-to-disclose

What if this is what CR just found?


----------



## genjy (Aug 7, 2005)

atomicalex said:


> Holy ****.
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...lkswagen-probe-may-reveal-failure-to-disclose
> 
> What if this is what CR just found?


so juicy so good opcorn:


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

atomicalex said:


> Holy ****.
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...lkswagen-probe-may-reveal-failure-to-disclose
> 
> What if this is what CR just found?


Yes the New York Times reported this yesterday. These devices are not specifically prohibited by EPA (depending of course on what exactly they do) IF they are disclosed on the certification application. The fact that VW didn't notify EPA is the concerning part. Nothing to hide? Not so sure.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/09/b...sions-scandal-congressional-hearing.html?_r=0


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

JohnNS said:


> Anyway, I don't think my views on making it right are out of line when you're looking at an older vehicle with an unknown timeline to repair other than "at least a year"
> 
> Just give us options.


100% agreed.


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

Wow. They should have told the EPA about that second one! Think this is all true?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

PowerslavePA said:


> PLUS? My DPF is cracked, and I am blowing soot at W.O.T.


I have a pre-DPF diesel and I don't blow soot unless I've spent a lot of time idling in traffic and then go WOT (which I do once a drive just because EGR, and I like to overrun the traction control :laugh: )


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

genjy said:


> CR video means Prius owners now out-smugging TDI owners by a lot.


They were already. The difference today is it's "justified"


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

PowerslavePA said:


> Yep, but the GM ignition switch scandal killed at least 100 people.


124, with 250+ injured. with injuries including quadriplegia and paraplegia. it's not as harsh when you're just talking about numbers like this. the person on the other side of that number makes it all the more real. some of the stories written about the people and families suffering because of what GM did can be enough to put you in tears. i won't post links to those here, but read at your own risk.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

atomicalex said:


> Holy ****.
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...lkswagen-probe-may-reveal-failure-to-disclose
> 
> What if this is what CR just found?


So basically since the EPA put VW on notice a year or so ago their answer was to devise a different way to just do essentially the same thing?


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Well clearly it wasn't newsworthy or juicy enough to get much press.
> 
> Volkswagen was already working on a substantial EV/Hybrid strategy and we're already seeing a lot of that with the new european Passat and other MQB/MLB vehicles in the future. Things like the GTE models are a nod towards those that would like performance and economy while still offering a regular hybrid with more of a focus on pure economy. Either way, VW knew that the future of diesel here and ultimately Europe was already numbered.
> 
> -j


Thing I don't get is why, knowing beyond the shadow of a doubt that diesel was going to become a nonstarter, VW changed essentially nothing in its product planning or marketing to begin the shift away from TDIs. They were still heavily reliant on diesel sales here and in Europe, still heavily marketing them, and still putting diesels into much of the product line. Given all that, why was VW trying to ride that train to the end of the line? Why not pivot to PHEVs, hybrids, EVs, and TSI drivetrains?


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Vag*Tech said:


> The Emissions did not kill a single person. I can not believe the PC crap on this thread.


Political correctness is generally defined as policing the language and opinions of others because they're offensive to you and your beliefs or preferences. Pot kettle black.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Turbio! said:


> Given all that, why was VW trying to ride that train to the end of the line? Why not pivot to PHEVs, hybrids, EVs, and TSI drivetrains?



In my town there is a strip of three stores. Baskin Robbins on one end, a Pizza joint on the other end and in the middle a Weight Watchers. We all know what is good for us, but given the option we don't want small portions of kale and seaweed..... the Weight Watchers store is gone now, I think it's a cellphone store now :laugh: Pizza and Ice cream remain! VW was giving us our ice cream, good economy, good power, great range, easy fill up. 

Unfortunately now we all have to eat kale and seaweed sooner than we would have liked because they lied about the ice cream! :banghead:


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

Silly_me said:


> In my town there is a strip of three stores. Baskin Robbins on one end, a Pizza joint on the other end and in the middle a Weight Watchers. We all know what is good for us, but given the option we don't want small portions of kale and seaweed..... the Weight Watchers store is gone now, I think it's a cellphone store now :laugh: Pizza and Ice cream remain! VW was giving us our ice cream, good economy, good power, great range, easy fill up.
> 
> Unfortunately now we all have to eat kale and seaweed sooner than we would have liked because they lied about the ice cream! :banghead:


It's like having your cake, and eating it too.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

jen_madcity said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/09/b...sions-scandal-congressional-hearing.html?_r=0
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Found another one:
http://jalopnik.com/the-epa-may-have-found-a-second-secret-defeat-device-in-1735745096



Waterfan said:


> They were already. The difference today is it's "justified"


Mine wasn't till recently. My tailpipe has been clean since I bought it, and
it wasn't till last month it started to build up soot, and I can see it blow out
when I go W.O.T. from a stand still. I also noticed a bump up in MPG and
power. The DPF is there to prevent "rolling coal" and if it fails, then you
get the black smoke out the tailpipe. IT also gets into the EGR system,
then gums up the intake. The DPF prevents that as well. I now DO have a
code for EGR flow, sporadic, so I am going to make a blocking plate
for at the intake flap. I also had a code for particulate trap, bank one, flow
below threshold, sporadic. 

They were already blowing NOx, a gas you can't see, not black smoke,
mot mine anyway, not till last month. I believe that is why you're warned
not to use the trans torque mount bushing insert on TDIs; the vibrations tear
up the DPF. Mine was fine till after I installed the bushing insert to make
the mount solid. With the DSG you can really feel it clutch into gear
from a stop, more like a manual than ever. I know what a DSG is, so
I don't need that explanation as to why. You can feel more with the 
bushing insert. The upside is, more solid braking, less motor twist thus
doesn't absorb as much torque, and prevents hopping. 

Down side, the DPF is vibrated apart...


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Also, the recalls might not start for at least another year, and can take
up to ten hours per car.

In addition, a hardware adjustment may be required for the 1.6-liter versions,
because European Union emissions standards apply to all 28 countries in the bloc.

How Volkswagen Got Away With Diesel Deception:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...al/vw-diesel-emissions-scandal-explained.html


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

Turbio! said:


> Thing I don't get is why, knowing beyond the shadow of a doubt that diesel was going to become a nonstarter, VW changed essentially nothing in its product planning or marketing to begin the shift away from TDIs. They were still heavily reliant on diesel sales here and in Europe, still heavily marketing them, and still putting diesels into much of the product line. Given all that, why was VW trying to ride that train to the end of the line? Why not pivot to PHEVs, hybrids, EVs, and TSI drivetrains?


Yeah, you would think that they'd be wise enough to see the writing on the wall and act accordingly.

Probably for the same reason people continue to swill mass quantities of soda and eat boatloads of french fries, VW did not pursue other things than diesel more aggressively.

People know that a poor diet is a nonstarter long term and, like VW, it would be prudent to shift their diets away from crap. But they don't. Like VW, they will ride the junk food train to the end of the line...chronic disease or death. It would make total sense to pivot to a more healthy diet and lifestyle, but most people will not.

The majority of folks will probably take the easiest, most fun short term road in a given situation than a more difficult road that's more sustainable in the long term. It's just how people work. It's very difficult for people to take short term pain in return for long term benefits. I'd imagine that corporations operate under similar pressures and operate in denial sometimes just like individuals.

Despite overwhelming evidence that fast food is detrimental to one's health, every drive thru in my city is probably packed with cars at this very moment.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Another four car makers fail diesel emissions tests: Guardian 



> Another four car makers have joined the list of those whose diesel cars emit more pollution on the road than in regulatory tests, the issue that has created a massive scandal and major recall for Germany's Volkswagen AG VLKAY, +5.68% VOW3, +2.48% the Guardian reported Friday. Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda and Mitsubishi vehicles were all found to perform differently on the road than in test conditions in European tests, the Guardian said, citing data from Emissions Analytics, which tested the cars. The paper quoted Nick Molden from Emissions Analystics as saying the the issue is systemic across the industry. The report comes after the paper last week reported the same issue was found with cars made by Renault, Nissan, Hyundai, Citroen, Fiat, Volvo and Jeep.


Waiting for Ford and Chevy.... Would like to see how the Cruze Diesel matches up...


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

syncro87 said:


> Yeah, you would think that they'd be wise enough to see the writing on the wall and act accordingly.


The company that built the air-cooled Beetle for decades after its prime?


----------



## Galrot (Mar 23, 2009)

PowerslavePA said:


> Another four car makers fail diesel emissions tests: Guardian
> 
> 
> 
> Waiting for Ford and Chevy.... Would like to see how the Cruze Diesel matches up...


Seems like they are just repeating what have been known for a long time: That the majority of diesels in Europe produces significant less pollution in tests than in use. This is not new knowledge, in fact it was a result of this knowledge that lead to VWs US.market diesels being tested and in turn lead to this scandal in the first place. But that European diesels produce more pollution in-use than in tests does not mean that the manufactures there have necessarily have developed the same "defeat devices" as Volkswagen and it is not really what the Volkswagen scandal is about (it's about those aforementioned defeat devices, test codes, whatever you want to call it), unlike what Guardian claims.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Turbio! said:


> Thing I don't get is why, knowing beyond the shadow of a doubt that diesel was going to become a nonstarter, VW changed essentially nothing in its product planning or marketing to begin the shift away from TDIs.


If senior management didn't know that the **** was going to eventually hit the fan.... They would not have any good reason to move away from a very successful strategy.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Galrot said:


> Seems like they are just repeating what have been known for a long time: That the majority of diesels in Europe produces significant less pollution in tests than in use. This is not new knowledge, in fact it was a result of this knowledge that lead to VWs US.market diesels being tested and in turn lead to this scandal in the first place. But that European diesels produce more pollution in-use than in tests does not mean that the manufactures there have necessarily have developed the same "defeat devices" as Volkswagen and it is not really what the Volkswagen scandal is about (it's about those aforementioned defeat devices, test codes, whatever you want to call it), unlike what Guardian claims.


I think it has something to do with the tests not being under load, meaning,
rollers and not the weight of the car. So, of course the emissions are going
to be lower on rollers, rather than pulling the weight of the car. You can
test on rollers, friction-less rollers, then under load. Most of the tests
are not done under load.

Any how, I think another reason there is more NOx on the cars with a DPF, is
because the DPF is before the the NOx canister/collector. It won't get
as hot as the DPF does, and only during a REGEN are both the DPF
and NOx catalyst under enough heat to burn off, and work properly.
If they can find the right size NOx cat to put on, that will heat up
more than the current one, it should also work.


----------



## 88c900t (Jul 7, 2014)

PowerslavePA said:


> Another four car makers fail diesel emissions tests: Guardian
> 
> 
> 
> Waiting for Ford and Chevy.... Would like to see how the Cruze Diesel matches up...


Uhh.. they passed the tests just fine. It's just that the tests don't simulate realistic driving conditions.


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

88c900t said:


> Uhh.. they passed the tests just fine. It's just that the tests don't simulate realistic driving conditions.



Makes perfect sense to me that a testing regimen would be put in place that wouldn't gauge a vehicle's performance in the real world. :screwy:


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

88c900t said:


> Uhh.. they passed the tests just fine. It's just that the tests don't simulate realistic driving conditions.


Yeah, I always drive unrealistically, so my emissions are low....

This is how they skirt some emissions tests.

VW was a blatant cheat, but how can anything be approved by the EPA if they
cannot simulate REAL driving conditions. Oh, they could, just they're not forced
to.

Still, only time will tell. No matter what, as I said, I won't take mine in unless
the EPA leans on the state to make me comply. There is so much worse
out there, unregulated ships on on the oceans, jet planes.. Commercial
flights directly effect atmosphere at the highest levels. In fact, the period
after 9/11 when all flights were grounded, there was enough of a temperature
change that it was noticed. Afterwards, it went back to what it was, and was
maybe a degree difference. So, again, don't care about what my TDI is kicking
out by comparison. 

It's nothing, and it will be nothing. I bet you, if VW PAID the maximum fine,
the recall would go away and the cars would be "grandfathered." Like THAT
has never happened before... Every new one must comply, or else...
Pay to pollute, that's what happens all the time. It's bad till there's enough
money to say it's not.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

syncro87 said:


> Yeah, you would think that they'd be wise enough to see the writing on the wall and act accordingly.


Like Hitler's final days in the bunker?


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

Kar98 said:


> The company that built the air-cooled Beetle for decades after its prime?


It was still a viable transportation option in much of the Third World until the end.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

syncro87 said:


> Makes perfect sense to me that a testing regimen would be put in place that wouldn't gauge a vehicle's performance in the real world. :screwy:


It actually does make perfect sense. Real world testing should be in addition to instrumented lab tests, not instead of, for reasons of basic experimental design. Real world conditions include so many uncontrolled variables that the results are not repeatable. An instrumented test allows comparison and replication.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

atomicalex said:


> If senior management didn't know that the **** was going to eventually hit the fan.... They would not have any good reason to move away from a very successful strategy.


You think the upper management was that out of touch?


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

PowerslavePA said:


> There is so much worse
> out there, unregulated ships on on the oceans, jet planes.. Commercial
> flights directly effect atmosphere at the highest levels.


Not in the same way. All pollution is not equal and equivalent. Unregulated ships don't affect public health because they are, obviously, out in the oceans - and close in to port, they are now banned from burning bunker fuel. Commercial airliners don't emit smog precursors and ozone. Power plants emit more sulfur and heavy metals, less NOx. 

Your line of reasoning here is a bit self-serving.


----------



## gonzo08452 (Apr 17, 2006)

If management didn't know this stuff going on, then they are 1000% guilty. It's their job to know. I believe Congress reiterated as such to Horn.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Turbio! said:


> Thing I don't get is why, knowing beyond the shadow of a doubt that diesel was going to become a nonstarter, VW changed essentially nothing in its product planning or marketing to begin the shift away from TDIs. They were still heavily reliant on diesel sales here and in Europe, still heavily marketing them, and still putting diesels into much of the product line. Given all that, why was VW trying to ride that train to the end of the line? Why not pivot to PHEVs, hybrids, EVs, and TSI drivetrains?



It's quite simple, actually.

Profits. As expensive as modern diesel emissions equipment is, it's still cheap compared to batteries, controllers and redundant propulsion motors. With diesel they could pump out millions of cars (that got tax breaks, mind you) that the public would buy and could still command a tidy profit. Electric/hybrid cars can't yet do that. My guess is that they were riding that particular gravy train to the end until they could develop a profitable business model to replace them with electrics/hybrids.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

gonzo08452 said:


> If management didn't know this stuff going on, then they are 1000% guilty. It's their job to know. I believe Congress reiterated as such to Horn.


This statement is 100% true, but I have no idea how any congressperson can tell anybody about accountability and responsibility without their tiny heads exploding from the sheer pressure of the cognitive dissonance.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Turbio! said:


> This statement is 100% true, but I have no idea how any congressperson can tell anybody about accountability and responsibility without their tiny heads exploding from the sheer pressure of the cognitive dissonance.


_Neither_ of your statements are 100% true, but only because they can't be "1000% guilty".  :wave:

Also, I found it both funny and repulsive,too.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Turbio! said:


> You think the upper management was that out of touch?


 Remember, I've talked personally with some of them. Yes, they live in a bubble. Sometimes of their own making. 

Engineering management is culpable here. I'm familiar enough with German management and automotive management to believe Horn was completely out of the loop.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

gonzo08452 said:


> If management didn't know this stuff going on, then they are 1000% guilty. It's their job to know. I believe Congress reiterated as such to Horn.


And they didn't do this once, they did it to THREE drivetrains. :facepalm: This wasn't a rogue engineer (an oxymoron).


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

From the detroit News today....


----------



## gonzo08452 (Apr 17, 2006)

The VW service dept will be alright in the short run. Possible ten hours of labor and some tech is going to find a way to get it done in half the time or even less. But that must be some serious retrofit. Short block replacement depending on the engine is about 12-15 hours and that usually includes teardown diagnosis time and flushing lines etc.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

gonzo08452 said:


> The VW service dept will be alright in the short run. Possible ten hours of labor and some tech is going to find a way to get it done in half the time or even less. But that must be some serious retrofit. Short block replacement depending on the engine is about 12-15 hours and that usually includes teardown diagnosis time and flushing lines etc.



I was under the impression that labor on recalls was actual hours and not book hours, regardless you are comparing rip and replace to something that no tech has done. There will be some sort of learning curve.


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

atomicalex said:


> From the detroit News today....


"Climate-gate?" Really?


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

phil123 said:


> I was under the impression that labor on recalls was actual hours and not book hours, regardless you are comparing rip and replace to something that no tech has done. There will be some sort of learning curve.


Book hours. Otherwise there is no was quantify and control the cost. 

Considering how much it is going to cost them to develop a solution in R&D and material fabrications and the time it will take along with the back and forth with the EPA. I agree with the one Congressman and if they do an immediate recall. This would be cheaper for them in the long run and keep their customers the happiest and in the best light with the EPA and congress.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

atomicalex said:


> Remember, I've talked personally with some of them. Yes, they live in a bubble. Sometimes of their own making.
> 
> Engineering management is culpable here. I'm familiar enough with German management and automotive management to believe Horn was completely out of the loop.


Oh, I don't doubt you - that wasn't a skeptical "?" but rather an aghast one.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

atomicalex said:


> From the detroit News today....


You're welcome.:laugh:


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Climategate?


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Turbio! said:


> Climategate?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climatic_Research_Unit_email_controversy


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

What does the EPA have to do with climate gate?

Sent from my KFFOWI using Tapatalk


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

The more and more I read about these solutions, the more I think VW might have to buy back all of these cars and offer pro-rated discounts to the owners for replacements. 

That will leave hundreds of thousands of perfectly running identical cars not legal for highway use in the US. 

TDI Spec Series.


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

McBanagon said:


> The more and more I read about these solutions, the more I think VW might have to buy back all of these cars and offer pro-rated discounts to the owners for replacements.
> 
> That will leave hundreds of thousands of perfectly running identical cars not legal for highway use in the US.
> 
> TDI Spec Series.


I'm thinking the same thing. No way can they keep up customer relations and a good name in the USA by doing anything less. Guess we'll find out next month what they decide to do.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

The KBB trade-in value of my gasser Rabbit has dropped 10% in the last month. 

Thanks, TDI. :thumbdown:


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

CK98Beeetle said:


> I'm thinking the same thing. No way can they keep up customer relations and a good name in the USA by doing anything less. Guess we'll find out next month what they decide to do.


"Customers need more faith in our products' durability. Let's reduce the roadside assistance program again."


----------



## improvius (Mar 6, 2001)

BRealistic said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climatic_Research_Unit_email_controversy


"Eight committees investigated the allegations and published reports, finding no evidence of fraud or scientific misconduct. The scientific consensus that global warming is occurring as a result of human activity remained unchanged by the end of the investigations."


----------



## Guvnor (Sep 30, 2011)

McBanagon said:


> That will leave hundreds of thousands of perfectly running identical cars not legal for highway use in the US.


As I suggested in another thread, if they bought back our TDI's, they could export them overseas. There's already a big market exporting used vehicles from the USA. Generally, the TDI's will still run cleaner than the old smokers they're using in many poorer countries.

I can't see much alternative to some form of buy-back. Any fix is going to leave our cars devalued and we have no alternative but to join one of the lawsuits.


----------



## gonzo08452 (Apr 17, 2006)

So, this is it. The end of VW diesels in the US?


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

Lwize said:


> The KBB trade-in value of my gasser Rabbit has dropped 10% in the last month.
> 
> Thanks, TDI. :thumbdown:


We just need the value of the MK7 R to drop, and all is forgiven.


----------



## VWRedux (Jun 3, 2009)

*Oh baby... This Is Getting Scary!*

Both Winterkorn & Horn literally destroyed the public trust right at the time when VAG overtook Toyota in global sales. I recall when these two guys decided to "Americanize" their cars several years ago with the introduction of the new Jetta and Passat in an all-out effort to be #1 in the USA! If the Board of Directors don't chase out the rest of the vermin responsible for ruining the reputation of a great German mark here in the USA, I fear it will grow like a cancer until VAG will lose virtually all its global identity, viewed as untrustworthy and thus be broken apart by the creditors to save the other brands (Porsche, Lambo, etc) from cross contamination. (See second link below) I fear it will take another 25 years to get it all back sadly.

This Oliver Clip Destroys What was left in the public eye... 







6 Week Deadline: http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/11/vw-california-deadline-november-20/

Banks Recall VW Loans: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34501664

Texas Sues: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/10/11/volkswagen-texas-attorney-general-suit/73769242/


----------



## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

My neighbor with a Jetta Hybrid must be smiling wide...


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Wow, the banks recalling VW's loans would be bad. Goodbye development funds.

InB4 the 2015 Jetta is sold, unchanged, for the next decade :laugh:


----------



## Ambrose Wolfinger (Feb 21, 2005)

Cutandthrust said:


> We just need the value of the MK7 R to drop, and all is forgiven.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

November 20 is the deadline that California is giving VW to come up with the plan to handle and fix the TDIs.

This is just such a business cluster fudge of such monumental proportions.


----------



## gonzo08452 (Apr 17, 2006)

This is getting uglier by the day. I sure hope VW can recover from this.


----------



## Ambrose Wolfinger (Feb 21, 2005)

Just watched the CR video. I'm a bit skeptical. First, if this WAS the "cheat mode" they found, it doesn't seem there was that dramatic of a difference. Second, how did they come up with the "blinkers on, pump gas pedal five times..." method? Even if it is, doesn't the cheat mode depend on steering input, which would change when they're on the road? Third, why didn't they test emissions? Finally, Is there a way via VCDS to discover or enable the cheat mode?


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

I haven't watched the news in a month is this even a thing anymore or is it just the drama queens on this board blowing it out of proportion with assumptions about everything?


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

randy said:


> November 20 is the deadline that California is giving VW to come up with the plan to handle and fix the TDIs.
> 
> This is just such a business cluster fudge of such monumental proportions.



Good news for TDI'ers in CA :thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## genjy (Aug 7, 2005)

Car Problems said:


> I haven't watched the news in a month is this even a thing anymore or is it just the drama queens on this board blowing it out of proportion with assumptions about everything?


Just type in "Volkswagen" into Google and you will see the newest headlines about this VW diesel scandal... some published a day ago... some even a hour ago.

Still very much a thing.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

bill1975 said:


> Just watched the CR video. I'm a bit skeptical. First, if this WAS the "cheat mode" they found, it doesn't seem there was that dramatic of a difference. Second, how did they come up with the "blinkers on, pump gas pedal five times..." method? Even if it is, doesn't the cheat mode depend on steering input, which would change when they're on the road? Third, why didn't they test emissions? Finally, Is there a way via VCDS to discover or enable the cheat mode?


I pointed out above that I highly doubt CR just stumbled on that sequence. I am sure that there was some information available. I do believe that VCDS coding can be used to enable the mode, but it would likely require setting those sensor modes on each startup. IE - this is not a simple module recode. If it was, it would have been done already.

A positive note should be passed to CR's Auto Test team - they are apparently well-embedded in the engineering culture at SAE to get this kind of stuff on the back side. That is cool, and they should be recognized for their devotion to getting to the root of the matter as well as their total car-guy-ness. :thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## whitealltrac (Nov 10, 2008)

*............*



Car Problems said:


> I haven't watched the news in a month is this even a thing anymore or is it just the drama queens on this board blowing it out of proportion with assumptions about everything?



Don't close your eyes thinking its just a dream this whole mess is the real deal Holyfield....:laugh:


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

How long before TDI fans start enabling cheat mode as a regular mod and then slap a sticker on the back about polluting with pride.

Sent from my KFFOWI using Tapatalk


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

Will Wolfsburg be the next Detroit?
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/12/volk...rg-enveloped-in-fear-anger-and-disbelief.html

And VW dealers are concerned that current incentives are not enough:http://www.autonews.com/article/20151012/OEM/310129960?template=mobile


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

phil123 said:


> Good news for TDI'ers in CA :thumbup::thumbup:


Yeah..... nothing says 'good news' to a customer of a German car more than having a major bit of that car implemented by rushed German engineers :laugh:


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

randy said:


> Will Wolfsburg be the next Detroit?


Honey, nobody is the next Detroit. To be the next Detroit, you have to be Detroit about six times over. Then we can talk about being the next Detroit. Wolfsburg hasn't even had one bust cycle yet. We would need to see true malaise, white flight, union shenanigans (ok, they have that covered), and poverty. 

Yeah. 

Next Detroit. Ha! Maybe the next Flint. But not the "next Detroit". Not for a long time.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

McBanagon said:


> The more and more I read about these solutions, the more I think VW might have to buy back all of these cars and offer pro-rated discounts to the owners for replacements.
> 
> That will leave hundreds of thousands of perfectly running identical cars not legal for highway use in the US.
> 
> TDI Spec Series.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

McBanagon said:


>


I would be in for that.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

atomicalex said:


> I would be in for that.


They could prorate the price based on mileage/age, starting at $500. 

Hello LeMons.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

McBanagon said:


> Hello LeMons.


Pollution-spec class. OMG, Lieberman is already salivating....


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

McBanagon said:


>


This is why you're my hero. :laugh: :beer:


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

I've got a car with one of the older 2.0 CR engines. Outside of an emission problem I can't detect, the car has been a good compromise between useful, fun to drive and fuel economy. VW will fix it eventually, and the fix is apparently hardware and software that will preserve the fuel economy.

I live in a part of the country where diesel is generally cheaper per gallon that unleaded regular. Once fixed, I think the resale value locally will be pretty good.

If the scandal leads VW to bring over the Golf GTE or GTE wagon I'd consider buying one of those. I'm disappointed that my current TDI is polluting in this way. That other manufacturer's cars also fail in the same way does not excuse VW. Smog is not a problem where I live, but I don't want to cause problems for people who live downwind.

I think VW should be fined for cheating, and have to issue a fix. I also think the EPA should think about what to do for the entire fleet. If the problem is as pervasive as I think, I'd imagine that there could be a lot more manufacturers doing recalls. There are a lot of older cars on the road where I live. They should be cleaned up. Simply fixing new cars isn't enough.

Once the fix for emissions is in place, I'd start recommending Golf TDI again. It's actually pretty nice.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Can I get a cliff note version of the TDI problem as of today?


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Uberhare said:


> Can I get a cliff note version of the TDI problem as of today?


Volkswagen bankruptcy possible.


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

McBanagon said:


> They could prorate the price based on mileage/age, starting at $500.
> 
> Hello LeMons.


Its the extra touches like the tape on the headlights that sets you apart. bravo.:laugh:


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

GoHomePossum said:


> Volkswagen bankruptcy possible.


You know, if this second emissions software loop has any teeth in it whatsoever, I wouldn't rule that out at this point.


----------



## adrew (Aug 15, 2003)

Is there any more news on the BMW diesels? It would be a shame if they get discontinued -- I drove the 328d and the 535d this weekend at the Ultimate Driving Experience* and came away really impressed with both engines, especially the 6-cylinder in the 5-series; that thing pulls like a freight train. The 4-cylinder was great, too -- didn't mind revving and had tons of grunt right off idle which was awesome on the little autocross course. I thought it would be laggy and un-fun but it was very responsive. 

*Blue Cone winner
<-----


----------



## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

Uberhare said:


> Can I get a cliff note version of the TDI problem as of today?


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Maximum_Download said:


> You know, if this second emissions software loop has any teeth in it whatsoever, I wouldn't rule that out at this point.


Nah, I think CR has a mole at Bosch and said mole simply gave them the cheat code for the base Bosch dyno mode. :thumbup: The actual VW cheat is much more elegant, requires no outside input.

Or someone at CR knew the Bosch dyno mode code because he is a smart guy and has been doing this for a while.... No, I'm not saying who I think this is, but I did just realize that I think I know this person.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

VWRedux said:


> Both Winterkorn & Horn literally destroyed the public trust right at the time when VAG overtook Toyota in global sales. I recall when these two guys decided to "Americanize" their cars several years ago with the introduction of the new Jetta and Passat in an all-out effort to be #1 in the USA! If the Board of Directors don't chase out the rest of the vermin responsible for ruining the reputation of a great German mark here in the USA, I fear it will grow like a cancer until VAG will lose virtually all its global identity, viewed as untrustworthy and thus be broken apart by the creditors to save the other brands (Porsche, Lambo, etc) from cross contamination. (See second link below) I fear it will take another 25 years to get it all back sadly.
> 
> This Oliver Clip Destroys What was left in the public eye...
> 
> ...


nothing like cutting off your nose to spite your face?

not gonna happen. the last thing the Euro Union, Lower Saxony, etc want; if for VW to be in serious financial issues.....because they would all end up holding the bag so to speak....VW going BK would be devastating to ALL of Europe, not just Germany. let's be realistic shall we.

friggin stupid media blowing all of this way out of proportion, feeding the BS.


----------



## Nubbin (Mar 17, 2007)

GoHomePossum said:


> Volkswagen bankruptcy possible.


People need to start a crowd funding project to save the poor company.


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

atomicalex said:


> Nah, I think *CR has a mole* at Bosch and said mole simply gave them the cheat code for the base Bosch dyno mode. :thumbup: The actual VW cheat is much more elegant, requires no outside input.
> 
> Or someone at CR knew the Bosch dyno mode code because he is a smart guy and has been doing this for a while.... No, I'm not saying who I think this is, but I did just realize that *I think I know this person*.



Breaking news - atomicalex is a mole for consumer reports.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

VW is too big to fail.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Turbio! said:


> Not in the same way. All pollution is not equal and equivalent. Unregulated ships don't affect public health because they are, obviously, out in the oceans - and close in to port, they are now banned from burning bunker fuel. Commercial airliners don't emit smog precursors and ozone. Power plants emit more sulfur and heavy metals, less NOx.
> 
> Your line of reasoning here is a bit self-serving.


Right, and when Mt. St. Helens erupted ALL The way over there, we
got no ASH here in PA? FALSE... You think the poisons don't travel?
What physics do you base that idiocy on? IT sure does travel, and it
effects the ECO system; 50% marine life, GONE. From what? CAR
emissions? I don't think so. 

Hey man, when it goes into the AIR it can go ANYWHERE. 

Self serving? Explain that one, like emissions serve me; yeah
please explain that one. My future self, telling my past self
to live long and prosper, is self serving. Not what you're
calculating...



McBanagon said:


> The more and more I read about these solutions, the more I think VW might have to buy back all of these cars and offer pro-rated discounts to the owners for replacements.
> 
> That will leave hundreds of thousands of perfectly running identical cars not legal for highway use in the US.
> 
> TDI Spec Series.


Buying them back would destroy VW, and leave them wide open for a hostile
take over, bu Fiat/Chrysler or GM, whom both are waiting for an opportunity.

For the miles I drive, they would almost pay my car off; if they had to compensate
for the difference in MPG with monetary compensation. I average 495 miles a day,
4-days a week, times the remaining loan term? Hell, at least pay a good portion
of the principal.

IF they can't fix them, there will probably be a pay to pollute fine. They can't
come take the car either, so they're both really in a conundrum. VW could simply
refuse to come up with a fix, then face the MAX 16 billion in fines, and almost
destroy them, as would buying 11 million cars back. The best I would go?
I'd take it in for the recall, if they paid at least half the loan off. Even then,
what's to stop anyone from going right to Malone and completely reversing
it. I see Malone and others alike getting a huge boost in THEIR sales after
the recall. 

The EPA, when they knew over a year ago, don't care what the situation was,
should have placed a freeze on sales of TDIs. I don't care that VW promised
to fix them, that was THEIR word, while the EPA had hard evidence. The EPA
shares guilt here, in allowing the sales to continue AFTER the fact. So, that is why
I see a no matter what; you keeping the car solution. 

C.A.R.B. like states? You may get screwed over royally, because you
can't register the car without the emissions certification. I would go as
far as to say, VW buying back cars in those states. They almost have to,
because you can no longer drive the car you bought in good faith. While,
they won't come take your car, you won't be driving it in those states.
Or, they'll have to exempt them, after VW pays the huge fine.

This is one of the few times, I can still count on ONE hand, it was beneficial
for me to be living in Pennsylvania, with the no emissions testing for
diesels.




gonzo08452 said:


> So, this is it. The end of VW diesels in the US?


For now... They withdrew their EPA papers for 2016 models. If they can FIX
this, they can sell them. You can still get a used one from a NON VW dealer.



GoHomePossum said:


> Wow, the *banks recalling VW's loans would be bad.* Goodbye development funds.
> 
> InB4 the 2015 Jetta is sold, unchanged, for the next decade :laugh:


That is NOT going to happen! Everyone would have to stop paying on their
loans for that to happen, and that is not attainable nationwide. Too big to 
organize, and we here in PA, probably won't do it. AS long as diesels do not have to
be emissions tested, we're gonna drive them, and pay our loans. 



McBanagon said:


> They could prorate the price based on mileage/age, starting at $500.
> 
> Hello LeMons.


I would lose, big time, I got 128+K miles on my 2013 as of this morning...



FastGTi said:


>


Not directed at you, but to whoever made that graphic:
Who has died? That's just stupid... GM's lie killed 147 people! That post
is an outright lie. When people post stuff like that, is when I hope NOTHING
happens to VW. Lying helps no one, and promoting lies like that just
make a bad situation worse. Stupid people will believe VW killed people
with bad emissions, because some even more stupid person started it.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

Lwize said:


> VW is too big to fail.


Maybe not but the German government knows the they are too important to fail.


----------



## genjy (Aug 7, 2005)

VW Death Watch 2015


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

PowerslavePA said:


> Right, and when Mt. St. Helens erupted ALL The way over there, we
> got no ASH here in PA? FALSE... You think the poisons don't travel?
> What physics do you base that idiocy on? IT sure does travel, and it
> effects the ECO system; 50% marine life, GONE. From what? CAR
> ...


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

Phil Pugliese said:


> Maybe not but the German government knows the they are too important to fail.


This is what it comes down to as far as VW's financials are concerned. There is no way Germany lets VW fully collapse. If the EPA hits them with too big of a fine, they'll just declare bankruptcy and that EPA fine will be reduced significantly. Bankruptcy doesn't necessarily mean they're done for, they could very well use it for protection. The German government, I would almost guarantee, would pump them with some Euros (a la GM). 

If VW did indeed collapse, the effects would definitely be monumental for Germany (employment rates, GDP, they are considered apart of their GDP correct?) and would probably end up effecting the entire Eurozone. 


I have not heard VW mentioned in the news as often (unless you are actively searching for VW news) so I assume, not to say it is water under the bridge, that the general, non-VW, non-car enthusiast, is beginning to let this scandal fade just like every other corporate scandal in the history of the modern world.


----------



## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

PowerslavePA said:


> Not directed at you, but to whoever made that graphic:
> Who has died? That's just stupid... GM's lie killed 147 people! That post
> is an outright lie. When people post stuff like that, is when I hope NOTHING
> happens to VW. Lying helps no one, and promoting lies like that just
> ...


thatsthejoke.jpg


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

VW is way bigger on a proportional basis to its home country than General Motors. Each produces around the same number of cars, but USA has 320 million population where Germany has only 80 million. On a population-adjusted basis, *VW is 4 times as important to Germany as GM was to America*, and GM was important enough that we jumped in to save them. Germany will do the same if needed.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

PowerslavePA said:


> Right, and when Mt. St. Helens erupted ALL The way over there, we
> got no ASH here in PA? FALSE... You think the poisons don't travel?
> What physics do you base that idiocy on? IT sure does travel, and it
> effects the ECO system; 50% marine life, GONE. From what? CAR
> ...


This is the exact attitude I'd expect to end up with had I too bought a diesel. Whew, pissyness averted and crap gas mileage as a bonus. :thumbup:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> VW is way bigger on a proportional basis to its home country than General Motors. Each produces around the same number of cars, but USA has 320 million population where Germany has only 80 million. On a population-adjusted basis, *VW is 4 times as important to Germany as GM was to America*, and GM was important enough that we jumped in to save them. Germany will do the same if needed.


The same idea (if not the percentages) would hold true when it comes to GDP as well.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Rawcpoppa said:


>


I am not upset, people are when they read something that upsets THEM. I am
100% fine, driving my TDi and polluting like everything else on the planet.

I can take this SO much farther to show the hypocrisy of government; people getting
up in arms for polluting the air, yet people like RAMEN can pollute the food
we eat? C'mon people, get a grip! So, in spirit of my continually showing how
stupid this all is by comparison? WHO all eats Ramen Noodles?

Ramen Noodles don’t break down, even after hours of digestion, causes nutrient absorption problems with other foods.
It contains absolutely no nutritional content yet has 2700mg of sodium, worse if you add butter.
It contains TBHQ; Five grams TBHQ Is Lethal, 1 gram = Nausea and vomiting, Ringing in the ears (tinnitus), Delirium, Sense of suffocation...
Causes metabolic syndrome in 68% of women who eat them.
High in MSG, which causes brain dysfunction, speeds up Alzheimers disease (Did I eat Ramen? I don't recall that).

TBHQ: Liver effects at very low doses, Biochemical changes at very low doses, reproductive effects at high doses.

Perfectly legal to poison us with food and drugs, but NOx is a No no? C'mon... It's all about
the money. Then there is the artificial sweeteners that metabolizes into 10% wood alcohol...

Oh, but VW is putting out NOx, very bad, yes, but keep eating and drinking the CRAP
our other governmental branch approves (FDA), that will kill you faster... Don't
forget to take your Rx drugs that damage your liver, and have side effects, to even
deadly side effects...

Ever wonder why it costs more the eat healthy, and SO mush less to eat unhealthy,
toxic foods? Think about it....

This is why I don't care! It's okay to poison us one way, but not another? I call that
hypocritical, and I won't cooperate, in any way, with the Recall. AND, if I have to?
Well, someone like Malone will be getting my business afterwards. I find it totally
appalling that one thing is okay, another is not, when they're both health hazards,
while the FDA side is worse, MUCH worse. Doctors stopped healing decades ago,
because poisons were found that alleviate symptoms, but do NOT heal the conditionm
and that means DOLLARS, everywhere...

VW has killed no one or nothing; yet so many countless others are allowed to, and do it, every day,
legally. 

Again not mad, I tell it like it actually is, that is what upsets people. I don't care what
VW did by comparison to; The oil industry, coal fired electric, nuclear power, drug
industry, textile industry, hybrid car battery manufacturers, SO MUCH MORE! 
ONE battery for an electric car produces more toxins than an H2 will emit in a year,
and chemical toxins it won't. Hypocritical, all of it.

STOP IT! What VW did is illegal, because rules made by flawed, greedy humans in power said so,
while allowing us to be poisoned by other means that are totally legal, made by the same GREEDY
flawed humans is power.

You may ask; then when or where does it stop? It stops when we citizens take back our countries, and make them stop.
That isn't happening either, so, live your life the way you want to, you're supposed to be free, so act on it, and drive your
TDI all you want, because APPARENTLY, a year ago when they knew about it, it was just fine.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Couple questions:


Can you still purchase used TDI models from a car dealer?
Are banks and CUs still offering loans for these used vehicles?
Are you still able to legally sell, buy, or trade a TDI model in states outside of California?
Is it a good time to get a used TDI vehicle now that the used prices are falling or would it be best to waint until the official recall is announced?



For the record....I don't care about the emissions output of the vehicle as I live in a county which emissions testing is not required. I've sort of considering a TDI vehicle as a good dependable DD but unsure if it is a smart time to get one.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

PowerslavePA said:


> I am not upset, people are when they read something that upsets THEM. I am
> 100% fine, driving my TDi and polluting like everything else on the planet.
> 
> I can take this SO much farther to show the hypocrisy of government; people getting
> ...


We get it. You _reallly_ like Cocoa Puffs. :screwy:


----------



## Zinhead1 (Nov 10, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> VW is way bigger on a proportional basis to its home country than General Motors. Each produces around the same number of cars, but USA has 320 million population where Germany has only 80 million. On a population-adjusted basis, *VW is 4 times as important to Germany as GM was to America*, and GM was important enough that we jumped in to save them. Germany will do the same if needed.


It not just the US fines, but those from other countries as well. Don't you think France or Italy would put the squeeze on VW in order to help Renault, PSA and Fiat? Those three national automakers have gotten their clocks cleaned by the Germans, and hobbling their major competitor would help them tremendously.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

Uberhare said:


> Couple questions:
> 
> 
> Can you still purchase used TDI models from a car dealer?
> ...


I wouldn't touch ANY TDI at this point, purely because this mess is still developing and there's too much on the line that could go either way.

I don't believe you can purchase a TDI from a VW dealer. I do think you can buy one from any other dealer, but that being said - there's a lot of risk in doing so right now.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

Zinhead1 said:


> It not just the US fines, but those from other countries as well. Don't you think France or Italy would put the squeeze on VW in order to help Renault, PSA and Fiat? Those three national automakers have gotten their clocks cleaned by the Germans, and hobbling their major competitor would help them tremendously.


I dont think its a matter of other countries throwing fines or law suits at VW, because i'm sure they are going too, I think its more that Germany would step in and keep VW afloat as they go through this if that was deemed necessary.

Essentially, VW is in a world of hurt and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future, but Germany is not going to let them collapse to the point of no longer existing.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> VW is way bigger on a proportional basis to its home country than General Motors. Each produces around the same number of cars, but USA has 320 million population where Germany has only 80 million. On a population-adjusted basis, *VW is 4 times as important to Germany as GM was to America*, and GM was important enough that we jumped in to save them. Germany will do the same if needed.


Volkswagen: Four Times More Governmenty than GM™!


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

ByronLLN said:


> Volkswagen: Four Times More Governmenty than GM™!


I swore off Volkswagen BEFORE the bailout :laugh:


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

ByronLLN said:


> Volkswagen: Four Times More Governmenty than GM™!


To be fair to GM, VW was easily ten times more governmenty from day one. GM has been a government-free entity for most of its various lives.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

atomicalex said:


> To be fair to GM, VW was easily ten times more governmenty from day one. GM has been a government-free entity for most of its various lives.


Their little hearts can't take it, K.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

ByronLLN said:


> Volkswagen: Four Times More Governmenty than GM™!


bravo!


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Maximum_Download said:


> ........too much on the line that could go either way.
> 
> 
> ........there's a lot of risk in doing so right now.


Like what?


----------



## lorge1989 (Sep 3, 2008)

Slightly off topic, but I find it funny how VW is accused to be producing 15-35(?) times more NOx than allowable. I did a quick search, and although I couldn't find the plot for Tier 3, but I did find it for Tier 1 and Tier 2. I did find from reliable source that the average allowable number for Tier 3, or todays emissions standards in the US was .02 g/mi (most recent). So if VW was putting out that much today, it would be .3 g/mi to .7 g/mi.


----------



## bzcat (Nov 26, 2001)

lorge1989 said:


> Slightly off topic, but I find it funny how VW is accused to be producing 15-35(?) times more NOx than allowable. I did a quick search, and although I couldn't find the plot for Tier 3, but I did find it for Tier 1 and Tier 2. I did find from reliable source that the average allowable number for Tier 3, or todays emissions standards in the US was .02 g/mi (most recent). So if VW was putting out that much today, it would be .3 g/mi to .7 g/mi.



We are on Tier 2 now.

VW TDI are certified as Tier2 Bin5.

For comparison purpose, all EVs are Tier2 Bin1 (zero emission); Toyota Prius is Tier2 Bin2; most small gasoline engine vehicles are Tier2 Bin3; some larger gasoline engine vehicles are Tier2 Bin4.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> We get it. You _reallly_ like Cocoa Puffs. :screwy:


Nope, and I don't drink the cool-aid either... Isn't it great, people think
you're crazy when you expose hypocrisy, and make something like
VW's problem look small by comparison, yeah, typical human denial.




bzcat said:


> We are on Tier 2 now.
> 
> VW TDI are certified as Tier2 Bin5.
> 
> For comparison purpose, all EVs are Tier2 Bin1 (zero emission); Toyota Prius is Tier2 Bin2; most small gasoline engine vehicles are Tier2 Bin3; some larger gasoline engine vehicles are Tier2 Bin4.


Some places even exempt gas vehicles in a higher weight class, like
right here in PA. You can pollute ALL you want here, if you meet the
requirements. Those charts mean nothing when a state can decide
who pollutes what, where, and when. Those vehicles run between
states with higher standards...

What VW did is lie, what they're putting out, is only higher
in cars, not higher weight class trucks, RVs, and so on... 

AGAIN, just wait and see, you all may be surprised by the outcome...


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

PowerslavePA said:


> AGAIN, just wait and see, you all may be surprised by the outcome...


With all the possible
ways this can play
out, I think a lot of 
people in this thread 
will be surprised
by the outcome.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

New word on the street is VW has been under reporting deaths and accidents. VW been reporting at a 9x reduced rate. NHTSA uses this as a tool to help identify defects in the car for recall. I don't care about this emissions scandal, but hiding data on the safety of the car is no bueno in my book.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

jnm2.0t said:


> New word on the street is VW has been under reporting deaths and accidents. VW been reporting at a 9x reduced rate. NHTSA uses this as a tool to help identify defects in the car for recall. I don't care about this emissions scandal, but hiding data on the safety of the car is no bueno in my book.


So far this is *MAY *have been. Their reporting is on the very low end of the scale. 



> Car manufacturers are required under law to report death and injury claims to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Those figures allow the regulatory agency to identify potentially fatal and dangerous defects. In the last year, the federal agency has investigated reporting inaccuracies related to Honda and Fiat Chrysler. Now, a new report shows that Volkswagen – in the midst of an emissions scandal – may have underreported deaths and injuries relate to its vehicles.
> 
> Bloomberg, citing an analysis of government data, reports that over the last decade VW has consistently reported death and injury claims at a rate of nine times lower than the average rate for the 11 biggest automakers.
> 
> ...


http://consumerist.com/2015/10/08/r...deaths-injuries-related-to-vehicle-accidents/

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/questions-raised-vws-reporting-u-s-deaths-injuries-n443061


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

McBanagon said:


>


Seriously, cheap race cars. How awesome would that be.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

spockcat said:


> So far this is *MAY *have been. Their reporting is on the very low end of the scale.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup, still using the word may, but they're either making the safest cars and have the safest drivers or something is seriously wrong. They're 3x lower than what Honda and Fiat had which was itself too low.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

jnm2.0t said:


> Yup, still using the word may, but they're either making the safest cars and have the safest drivers or something is seriously wrong. They're 3x lower than what Honda and Fiat had which was itself too low.


I started a new thread on this subject since it is different than the emissions thread. This should be discussed there: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-Deaths-Injuries-Related-To-Vehicle-Accidents


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

*Lawsuit seeks Volkswagen buyback of emissions-cheating diesels in California:*

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-volkswagen-diesel-buyback-lawsuit-20151012-story.html


----------



## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

Would it not be in their best interest, to get the 2016 certified ASAP? considering this should have the easiest solution 
maybe I'm biased as we are waiting to pick one up 

Any specifics on Mercedes and BMW? which vehicles/ engines are affected?


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

Probably ROZAP, but still:

*DiCaprio, Paramount option Volkswagen scandal book proposal*



> LOS ANGELES (AP) — The Volkswagen clean diesel emissions scandal is still chugging along, but Hollywood already has its eyes on a possible movie about the ordeal.
> 
> Paramount Pictures and Leonardo DiCaprio's production company Appian Way have optioned the rights to a book proposal from New York Times journalist Jack Ewing about the ongoing debacle.
> 
> ...


Johnny Depp will play the TDI in the movie adaptation. 

http://news.yahoo.com/dicaprio-para...scandal-book-proposal-223912932--finance.html

opcorn:


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

PowerslavePA said:


> Right, and when Mt. St. Helens erupted ALL The way over there, we
> got no ASH here in PA? FALSE...
> .


You didn't get as much as as Spokane did, though, did you now? 



PowerslavePA said:


> What physics do you base that idiocy on? IT sure does travel, and it
> effects the ECO system; 50% marine life, GONE. From what? CAR
> emissions? I don't think so.
> .


I'm an ecologist and I do environmental impact analysis for a living. I base my assertion on physics of the basic variety, like diffusion and dilution, which informs stuff like atmospheric mixing and receptor exposure rates. Given that I've forgotten more about those topics than you've ever learned, I'll go ahead and take the environmental **** from here. 

Air pollution is about fifteenth down the list of things that I'm worried about for marine ecosystems. That's not my concern with the poor emissions performance diesels exhibit, it's the elderly, sick, and very young people in urban areas, who get exposed to internal combustion exhaust in higher concentrations than you'll find in the north Pacific. 



PowerslavePA said:


> Self serving? Explain that one, like emissions serve me; yeah
> please explain that one.
> .


You're a TDI fanboy who doesn't take care of his vehicle, and it's much easier to blame everybody than take some personal ****ing responsibility for what do you and what you support. Hence your angry, pissant little rant here. Defensive, much?


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Lwize said:


> Probably ROZAP, but still:
> 
> *DiCaprio, Paramount option Volkswagen scandal book proposal*
> 
> ...


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Turbio! said:


> I'm an ecologist and I do environmental impact analysis for a living. I base my assertion on basic physics and chemistry, like diffusion and atmospheric mixing. Given that I've forgotten more about those topics than you've ever learned, I'll go ahead and take the environmental **** from here.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Jack-DE said:


> *Lawsuit seeks Volkswagen buyback of emissions-cheating diesels in California:*
> 
> http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-volkswagen-diesel-buyback-lawsuit-20151012-story.html


I wonder if this is a possibility for the owners of earlier VW diesel models (like 2009-2012) in CA. My son has a 2010 purchased in CT but now registered in CA. We have been bouncing around new vehicle choices if something like this were to happen. I could see the State of CA trying to force VW to buy back vehicles. Especially if they can't be fixed for more than a year.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Turbio! said:


> I'm an ecologist and I do environmental impact analysis for a living. I base my assertion on basic physics and chemistry, like diffusion and atmospheric mixing. Given that I've forgotten more about those topics than you've ever learned, I'll go ahead and take the environmental **** from here.
> 
> You're a TDI fanboy who doesn't take care of his vehicle, and it's much easier to blame everybody than take some personal ****ing responsibility for what do you and what you support. Hence your angry, pissant little rant here. Defensive, much?


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

McBanagon said:


> Seriously, cheap race cars. How awesome would that be.


I don't know which is funnier, this or Turbio!'s smackdown. :laugh:


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

ByronLLN said:


> Volkswagen: Four Times More Governmenty than GM™!


Well, seeing how VW was literally _founded_ as a government project and the state government of Lower Saxony still owns a substantial portion of it, you're not wrong.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Man, can I be a condescending piece of crap, or what? Damn, that was salty. I almost feel bad, but then I don't.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> ]


That was a hysterically sick burn.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

Turbio! said:


> Man, can I be a condescending piece of crap, or what? Damn, that was salty. I almost feel bad, but then I don't.


Never apologize for fact-based smackdowns. :thumbup:


----------



## child_in_time (Aug 9, 2006)

I guess this little issue with diesel emissions may screw up the 800,000 cars by 2018 plan? Maybe no?


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

child_in_time said:


> I guess this little issue with diesel emissions may screw up the 800,000 cars by 2018 plan? Maybe no?


The 800k by 2018 plan was ****ed before this ever happened. This is just going to make the rogering worse.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Turbio! said:


> Man, can I be a condescending piece of crap, or what? Damn, that was salty. I almost feel bad, but then I don't.


Not to rain on your victory party, but you are celebrating putting the smackdown on a guy that thought TDIs were running on soylent green. Congratulations :laugh:


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Silly_me said:


> Not to rain on your victory party, but you are celebrating putting the smackdown on a guy that thought TDIs were running on soylent green. Congratulations :laugh:


Just because it wasn't playing against the varsity doesn't mean I don't get to do an endzone dance. :laugh:


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Between your envirochops and my German corporate politics, we should be Prince by now.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Turbio! said:


> Just because it wasn't playing against the varsity doesn't mean I don't get to do an endzone dance. :laugh:


Dear god man, haven't you ever watched an 80s teen movie?!?!  The crowd is going to boo you and soon we'll have a Vortex montage sequence occurrence!!!

....or, maybe not :laugh:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

PowerslavePA said:


> Some places even exempt gas vehicles in a higher weight class, like
> right here in PA. You can pollute ALL you want here, if you meet the
> requirements. Those charts mean nothing when a state can decide
> who pollutes what, where, and when. Those vehicles run between
> states with higher standards...


In the midst of the burn of the day, I think it was overlooked how blatantly false this is. No state can override federal law and allow vehicles to be sold that "pollute all you want." Once again, more totally, 100% false information here. Just because PA doesn't do inspections of all cars doesn't mean those cars can be sold in violation of federal law. For any car to be sold new in the United States, it must pass emissions when it is sold and be designed in a way so as to still pass emissions 120,000 miles later regardless if the location it's in is doing inspections or not. States do NOT get to decide who pollutes or give a free pass to any vehicle to put out more smog-forming emissions. That's just absolutely false.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

Turbio! said:


> The 800k by 2018 plan was ****ed before this ever happened. This is just going to make the rogering worse.


The plan in still in place. They've now just moved the decimal point one or two places to the left.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Silly_me said:


> Dear god man, haven't you ever watched an 80s teen movie?!?!  The crowd is going to boo you and soon we'll have a Vortex montage sequence occurrence!!!
> 
> ....or, maybe not :laugh:


Have you seen that video that shows how Daniel-san was actually the villain in Karate Kid? Yeah, like that. Except there's no danger of my catching a crane kick to the face.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

The Phaeton is not dead. It's going all electric.

And it looks like TDIs will get more expensive in Europe. Probably gone from small cars like the Polo.




> *VW emissions scandal - new Phaeton confirmed amid €1bn spending cuts*
> 
> VW sets out its recovery plan: new Phaeton EV; more hybrids based on new electric architecture; streamlined diesel range and investments cuts
> 
> ...


----------



## ffcol (Apr 7, 2011)

Hajduk said:


> The Phaeton is not dead. It's going all electric.
> 
> And it looks like TDIs will get more expensive in Europe. Probably gone from small cars like the Polo.


Thought they were already converted over to scr and def in the US tdi cars. Yet they still had to pull the 2016 tdi's out of EPA certification. I assume they know the new engines will conform without the cheat or they would not be advertising them in the media.

Meant to reply to the article you quoted.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

ffcol said:


> Thought they were already converted over to scr and def in the US tdi cars. Yet they still had to pull the 2016 tdi's out of EPA certification. I assume they know the new engines will conform without the cheat or they would not be advertising them in the media.
> 
> Meant to reply to the article you quoted.


Yes but Adblue isn't used in Europe.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Hajduk said:


> Yes but Adblue isn't used in Europe.


Uh, considering that the German VDA owns the AdBlue trademark, I think it actually is.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> Uh, considering that the German VDA owns the AdBlue trademark, I think it actually is.


So which VW models in Europe use Adblue? Perhaps a few Passats maybe.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

Hajduk said:


> So which VW models in Europe use Adblue? Perhaps a few Passats maybe.


I think with Euro 6 it's basically everything. Until now it would have been the heavier stuff. Passat, Phaeton, the SUVs. Did they do the CC in diesel there?


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

ByronLLN said:


> I think with Euro 6 it's basically everything. Until now it would have been the heavier stuff. Passat, Phaeton, the SUVs. Did they do the CC in diesel there?


Most manufacturers including VW are using a NOx trap to meet Euro 6.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

Hajduk said:


> The Phaeton is not dead. It's going all electric.
> 
> And it looks like TDIs will get more expensive in Europe. Probably gone from small cars like the Polo.


Got links for that story?


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

classicjetta said:


> Got links for that story?


I can do ya one better:

https://www.volkswagen-media-servic...ec13158edd433c6630f5ac445da?p_p_auth=zFb01NT0


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

ByronLLN said:


> I can do ya one better:
> 
> https://www.volkswagen-media-servic...ec13158edd433c6630f5ac445da?p_p_auth=zFb01NT0


:thumbup:

I realize they're pushing the "we're trying to be green and environmentally friendly!" PR right now, but I really hope they don't just ignore North America going forward. I've said it before but I'll say it again, canceling the rollout of the Mexico-built MQB Tiguan spells the end for VWoA.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

classicjetta said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> I realize they're pushing the "we're trying to be green and environmentally friendly!" PR right now, but I really hope they don't just ignore North America going forward. I've said it before but I'll say it again, canceling the rollout of the Mexico-built MQB Tiguan spells the end for VWoA.


That's not going anywhere, as it's a volume product in one of the biggest markets in the world. It's cars like the next Scirocco and whatever the replacement for the Bulli concept was going to be. Those are niche vehicles in comparison and are probably to be wiped out.


----------



## pasateando (Mar 19, 2002)

LOL:

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-34515105


EDIT: Sorry, repost, I can't keep up with you guys! :laugh:


----------



## Slipstream (Feb 8, 2002)

Turbio! said:


> Man, can I be a condescending piece of crap, or what? Damn, that was salty. I almost feel bad, but then I don't.





Turbio! said:


> That was a hysterically sick burn.


I know he deserved it, but did you really just pat yourself on the back for your own insult? :what:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Slipstream said:


> I know he deserved it, but did you really just pat yourself on the back for your own insult? :what:


I think he was talking about the .gif file.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Slipstream said:


> I know he deserved it, but did you really just pat yourself on the back for your own insult? :what:


No, I was referring to Cranston your momming an audience member.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Slipstream said:


> I know he deserved it, but did you really just pat yourself on the back for your own insult? :what:


I was patting him on the back. He was acknowledging the greatness of Bryan Cranston.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Turbio! said:


> Daniel-san was actually the villain in Karate Kid?


lol Demon Sorcerer :thumbup::laugh:


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Jack-DE said:


> *Lawsuit seeks Volkswagen buyback of emissions-cheating diesels in California:*
> 
> http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-volkswagen-diesel-buyback-lawsuit-20151012-story.html


In states like that, it's viable. The "average" TDI ownership of '09+ in the USA us just under
1000 per state; AVERAGE. Still, the way emissions tests are set up, they'll all still pass,
so until the FIX is in, they keep certifying them, and have to, as long as their emissions
machines say it passed. The laws are, you plug in, you probe, if the machine says it passes,
you have to certify it, even KNOWING that the CHEAT is on. Even with a recall order, they
can't fail them just because; because of the time it will take to fix the effected cars. In order
to expedite the recall process in CARB like states, the recalls would have to be done in them first
and move outward from there. Owners have to be given a time table as to when they have to
show the recall was done; they can't arbitrarily deny the registration immediately on the recall
order, that would be unfair, and leave people without primary vehicles. I would guesstimate they
would be given a year to prove the recall was done once launched, before refusing registrations.




71DubBugBug said:


> Would it not be in their best interest, to get the 2016 certified ASAP? considering this should have the easiest solution
> maybe I'm biased as we are waiting to pick one up
> 
> Any specifics on Mercedes and BMW? which vehicles/ engines are affected?


Their 2016s have the same issue, so till they know how to fix what's already
out here, then they can fix those and resubmit the papers to the EPA. Then offer
them as part of a buy-back program, if offered or ordered. 

Any diesel with the 2.0 CBEA, CJAA, and EA288 is effected. The 3.0s are
not effected; the power they produce offset the need to cheat to get power.



Turbio! said:


> You didn't get as much as as Spokane did, though, did you now?
> *Of course not, but you can't say air pollutants don't travel, which it
> the point, not the quantity of it, again, you pervert the subject to make it
> appear to go in your favor.*
> ...


#1, I am not a TDI fanboy, I am a MOPAR guy; MOPAR; if you're not with us, you're behind us!

I am a car enthusiast period, not a single car MFR fanboy. My Charger will take any stock
TDI, so, no, not a fanboy, just someone who owns property, meaning, its MINE and I'll
do with it as I please. I put way more time and money into the Charger, so if I am a
fan of any one thing, then it's Star Trek... Yeah, that took you for a loop, didn't it? Totally
went off rail when it went from Mopar to Paramount. Huh? Bite me... I ain't blaming
anyone but VW and and EPA they're both guilty, VW being on top. Why should anyone
have to take any personal responsibility for SOMEONE ELSE'S SCREW UP! Too much
Oprah Windbag in your TV schedule... A self loathing ecologist huh? Well, then you
take personal responsibility VWs lie, don't matter to me, I won't, I didn't do it, so I
ain't fixin' it.



AZGolf said:


> In the midst of the burn of the day, I think it was overlooked how blatantly false this is. No state can override federal law and allow vehicles to be sold that "pollute all you want." Once again, more totally, 100% false information here. Just because PA doesn't do inspections of all cars doesn't mean those cars can be sold in violation of federal law. For any car to be sold new in the United States, it must pass emissions when it is sold and be designed in a way so as to still pass emissions 120,000 miles later regardless if the location it's in is doing inspections or not. States do NOT get to decide who pollutes or give a free pass to any vehicle to put out more smog-forming emissions. That's just absolutely false.


You totally missed the point, but that's okay. I never said PA doesn't inspect some cars,
they inspect every single car. They DO NOT EMISSIONS TEST every single car. Get
it right man. It can pass federal emissions, but then you can remove all that
in a state like PA, where emissions are not state-wide, AND diesels are 100%
exempt. I still get an inspection sticker, that's 100% across the state, I never said
there were no inspection exemptions anywhere, YOU did, only you. So, with
that in mind, yeah, you can pollute all you want here in PA when you're exempt,
because it's EXEMPT. You are violating FEDERAL LAW, not state law, and I have
never seen an EPA agent at an inspection station; oh, there should be, but there
isn't. The state decided to let you pollute all you want by the emissions exemption,
and boy some people do...

EVEN in a county that needs emissions on a gasser? If I drive it less than
5000 miles a year, then it's exempt. Exempt means, it's not tested, AT
ALL. So, I can remove the CATs on my Charger, do whatever I want to
it as long as I drive less than 5000 miles so it's not checked. I do get a
IM sticker, but not hooked up to the OBDII machine for testing. I can,
effectively, pollute all I want, because of the exemption. 

By exempting emissions, you're allowing people to alter their emissions
systems, and NO one checks them. Thus, you can pollute ALL YOU WANT
in Pennsylvania if you're exempt. INSPECTION, 100% across the board,
and that's for mechanical, not emissions. Though, they can fail your
inspection for a hole in your catless exhaust... 

Also, by making a truck exempt by weight class, they can do whatever they
want to that truck and make the emissions ten times worse, PA will still
let it on the road, so, that's just like letting people pollute all they want,
as long as you are exempt. I never meant to sat PA is superseding
federal law, with en emissions exemption, you can pollute all you want,
and the only person that can stop you is an EPA agent, maybe a state
trooper if they have evidence, and hold you for federal prosecution....


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Could you learn to type like a normal person, pls.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

PowerslavePA said:


> In states like that, it's viable. The "average" TDI ownership of '09+ in the USA us just under
> 1000 per state; AVERAGE. Still, the way emissions tests are set up, they'll all still pass,
> so until the FIX is in, they keep certifying them, and have to, as long as their emissions
> machines say it passed. The laws are, you plug in, you probe, if the machine says it passes,
> ...


I'm no pro, but your poems really suck. :thumbdown:


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Maximum_Download said:


> I wouldn't touch ANY TDI at this point, purely because this mess is still developing and there's too much on the line that could go either way.
> 
> I don't believe you can purchase a TDI from a VW dealer. I do think you can buy one from any other dealer, but that being said - there's a lot of risk in doing so right now.


Risk of what? As far as I can tell the states still allow the sale and transfer of used TDI vehicles. 

If I buy a used TDI Passat today what kind of risk would I face? I'm not in CA, so the CARB thing doesn't affect me. I live in a state county where emissions testing is not required. Seems like the only risk I would have is buying a used vehicle in which the value down the road would suffer. Or would it?


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

PowerslavePA said:


> Right, and when Mt. St. Helens erupted ALL The way over there, we
> got no ASH here in PA? FALSE... You think the poisons don't travel?
> What physics do you base that idiocy on? IT sure does travel, and it
> effects the ECO system; 50% marine life, GONE. From what? CAR
> ...


Everytime I see a post from this guy, I'm reminded why I am a capitalist.

While not perfect, free markets have a way of allocating resources efficiently.

This guy's highest and best economic use is as a driver. Someone who drives 495 miles a day, four days a week.

Not law.
Not architecture.
Not rocketry.
Not surgery.

Driving. Hours and hours of driving, back and forth, four days a week.

Seems about right.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

PowerslavePA said:


> #1, I am not a TDI fanboy, I am a MOPAR guy; MOPAR; if you're not with us, you're behind us!
> 
> I am a car enthusiast period, not a single car MFR fanboy. My Charger will take any stock
> TDI, so, no, not a fanboy


Can you just stop contradicting yourself? It's cognitively dissonant and makes your posts impossible to take seriously. :banghead:

The whole line feed thing is kind of 80s, but whatever. :facepalm:


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Uberhare said:


> For the record....I don't care about the emissions output of the vehicle as I live in a county which emissions testing is not required.


You live in Spokane, Washington, which is subject to both federal law, including the Clean Air Act, and the regulations of the United States Environmental Protection Agency.

Understand that, while your county may not impose a testing requirement on your vehicles, your federal and state government still have the power to decide which vehicles may operate on our roads. There's some realistic chance that the the feds may order these offending VWs off the road if not reconfigured to meet EPA standards.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

Uberhare said:


> Risk of what? As far as I can tell the states still allow the sale and transfer of used TDI vehicles.
> 
> If I buy a used TDI Passat today what kind of risk would I face? I'm not in CA, so the CARB thing doesn't affect me. I live in a state county where emissions testing is not required. Seems like the only risk I would have is buying a used vehicle in which the value down the road would suffer. Or would it?


Off the top of my head, resale value, for one. Repair costs (if it ends up being hard on the exhaust components, for example). The uncertanty of the impact of the scandal, is another.

What if legislation is passed REQUIRING anyone with a TDI to get it fixed?

Thing is, neither you nor I know what's coming, and that question mark is an awfully big one to bet $15,000ish bucks on. I wouldn't do it. You may feel otherwise, and welcome to America if so...you are free to do what you want.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

PowerslavePA - After 8 years on this site you're officially the first person bat **** crazy enough to be put on my ignore list. Congrats.


----------



## genjy (Aug 7, 2005)

If VW doesn't/can't fix the affected TDIs, they could be denied registration or even crushed. 

The U.S. government doesn't mess around when it comes to vehicle compliance. Tread carefully.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Uberhare said:


> Risk of what? As far as I can tell the states still allow the sale and transfer of used TDI vehicles.
> 
> If I buy a used TDI Passat today what kind of risk would I face? I'm not in CA, so the CARB thing doesn't affect me. I live in a state county where emissions testing is not required. Seems like the only risk I would have is buying a used vehicle in which the value down the road would suffer. Or would it?


For me it would depend on what the car was worth 3 months ago and what they want for it now. At enough of a discount I would buy it but it would need to be substantial discount.

VW CEO said it may take 1-2 years to get them all fixed, likely to be compensation to current owner and I think depending on how ****ty the fix is will depend on how much you get paid (essentially taking away some of the risk). 

Pretty sure I would buy virtually any good running car at enough of a discount.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

Chilcoot said:


> Everytime I see a post from this guy, I'm reminded why I am a capitalist.
> 
> While not perfect, free markets have a way of allocating resources efficiently.
> 
> ...


I say something quite similar almost every day. Something along the lines of, "well, it obviously wasn't building maintenance or NASA, that's for sure...". If only I'd have seen that sooner, I could've saved myself a few posts.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

PnZrFsT said:


> PowerslavePA - After 8 years on this site you're officially the first person bat **** crazy enough to be put on my ignore list. Congrats.


Ignore the boring ones, but keep at least one eye on the batshat crazy ones. The show's better and you'll know when to take cover should the tinfoil stop working. opcorn:


----------



## LieutenantShinySides (May 4, 2007)

PowerslavePA said:


> In states like that, it's viable. * The "average" TDI ownership of '09+ in the USA us just under
> 1000 per state; AVERAGE*. Still, the way emissions tests are set up, they'll all still pass,
> so until the FIX is in, they keep certifying them, and have to, as long as their emissions
> machines say it passed. The laws are, you plug in, you probe, if the machine says it passes,
> ...


10,000


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

LieutenantShinySides said:


> 10,000


:thumbup:

LOL. I looked at PowerslavePA's post and the 1000 average looked very funny given that there are 67,000 2009+ TDI models in the state of CA. Do we have more than 67 states in the USA I wondered. No, just someone who failed maths.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

PowerslavePA said:


> if I am a fan of any one thing, then it's Star Trek... Yeah, that took you for a loop, didn't it? Totally went off rail when it went from Mopar to Paramount. Huh? Bite me...


This may be the first thing you've said that I agree with. Well, except the "bite me" part.


----------



## MN Mongo (Apr 30, 2013)

this may have been covered in one of the other 160+ pages, but if i go and private party a cheating TDI right now at a significant discount from a disaffected owner, will I be eligible for owner incentives when the settlement finally drops? could be a good investment, no?


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

MN Mongo said:


> this may have been covered in one of the other 160+ pages, but if i go and private party a cheating TDI right now at a significant discount from a disaffected owner, will I be eligible for owner incentives when the settlement finally drops? could be a good investment, no?


No one can say for certain, but I expect the incentives will go to the registered owner at the time the incentives are offered. Wouldn't make economic sense for VW to make a windfall cash payment to someone who no longer owns the car.

I expect that aspect of your gamble is probably safe.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Ignore the boring ones, but keep at least one eye on the batshat crazy ones. The show's better and you'll know when to take cover should the tinfoil stop working. opcorn:


I'm banking on you guys quoting all the good stuff for me :laugh:


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

Chilcoot said:


> No one can say for certain, but I expect the incentives will go to the registered owner at the time the incentives are offered. Wouldn't make economic sense for VW to make a windfall cash payment to someone who no longer owns the car.
> 
> I expect that aspect of your gamble is probably safe.


But the original owner was the one who got screwed. The new owner is well aware of the issue and is hoping to "cash in".:sly:


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

dmorrow said:


> For me it would depend on what the car was worth 3 months ago and what they want for it now. At enough of a discount I would buy it but it would need to be substantial discount.
> 
> VW CEO said it may take 1-2 years to get them all fixed, likely to be compensation to current owner and I think depending on how ****ty the fix is will depend on how much you get paid (essentially taking away some of the risk).
> 
> Pretty sure I would buy virtually any good running car at enough of a discount.


This is my thinking. Yes, it would be a risk to buy a used TDI vehicle right now but let's say you get a Golf TDI for $3000 under book value simply because the dealer or private party doesn't want to deal with it. What kind of discount would justify buying a 2.0L TDI vehicle and accepting the risk of the unknown?


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

someguy123 said:


> But the original owner was the one who got screwed. The new owner is well aware of the issue and is hoping to "cash in".:sly:


The only ones who were screwed were buyers who sold when the market was low (for whatever reason). If you lease it you're fine, if you buy and drive it into the ground you're fine.

Financially speaking, of course. :beer:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> I'm no pro, but your poems really suck. :thumbdown:


and there goes my afternoon tea :laugh:


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

Silly_me said:


> and there goes my afternoon tea :laugh:


Lulz, same here. That's restaurant quality TCL :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

someguy123 said:


> But the original owner was the one who got screwed. The new owner is well aware of the issue and is hoping to "cash in".:sly:


I think we need to assume that, going forward, both buyers and sellers know about VW's diesel crisis, and will factor into their deals the possibility of VW someday having to provide some form of owner compensation.

If someone can find a seller who knows nothing of the crisis and yet is willing to sell a recent TDI for a crazy low price, well, _caveat venditor_.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Straight from VW in their FAQ section:

https://www.vwdieselinfo.com/faqs/

*Am I at risk for not passing the emissions test for my state?*
_We don’t anticipate that customers will have any issues with state registration or inspection. However, any customer encountering such an issue is urged to call or email VW Customer CARE at 800-822-8987 or [email protected]._


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Uberhare said:


> Straight from VW in their FAQ section:
> 
> https://www.vwdieselinfo.com/faqs/
> 
> ...


Well technically VW hasn't issued any sort of "fix" yet so when tested all diesel models will pass thanks to the cheat.


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

Saw this on a random 2012 Sportwagen TDI today










This is the first I've seen or heard of anything like this since the news broke. Not sure what website he used. It was also for sale and the guy was asking $21xxx for it.


----------



## Mechalurch (Mar 31, 2013)

Skizzle1111 said:


> Saw this on a random 2012 Sportwagen TDI today


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

Am I the only one seeing a touch of potential from this... it's not like the TDI drivetrain itself is that undesirable. The low end torque of the turbo + diesel combination is very nice. If the Consumer Reports video is evidence of little impact to the efficiency of these vehicles in full "emissions compliant mode", than it doesn't look so bad. The scandal will have reduced these to a potentially competitive market price by the time things have blown over. Think about it, at some point you'll have a vehicle with good commuter characteristics with a guaranteed fix to make it legal (since at this point, it is VW's mission to make it right.)

Is that bad that I'm thinking this? I personally loved the way my brother's 2012 Golf TDI drive on a recent trip from Utah to Lousiana (+ the 53-55 mpg it got highway mpg along the way at 70 mph.) Yeah, I've got family wrapped up in the scandal at the moment. Thankfully, he's just riding it out without complaint.


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

Skizzle1111 said:


> Saw this on a random 2012 Sportwagen TDI today
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you'll find the answer here, along with an explanation that the site used isn't valid for checking the VINs of vehicles sold in North America.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=4908621

Somebody should let the seller know.

>8^)
ER


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> I'm no pro, but your poems really suck. :thumbdown:


It's better if you imagine a wizened bard singing it it iambic pentameter for our amusement. A tankard of ale also helps.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I'm in this boat. I was shopping for a JSW TDI when this all went down. I found a decent 2011, but the dealer wants $13k for it with 73k miles. Not sure if this is a good price or not honestly. I'm just not sure how this will all unfold.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Peloton25 said:


> I think you'll find the answer here, along with an explanation that the site used isn't valid for checking the VINs of vehicles sold in North America.
> 
> http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=4908621
> 
> ...


Yep. On the initial website that was released, it only checked Euro VIN's. Any other sequence in the VIN field simply stated that it wasn't affected. You could literally write anything in there... There is a US specific site up - that's where that owner should check.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

someguy123 said:


> But the original owner was the one who got screwed. The new owner is well aware of the issue and is hoping to "cash in".:sly:


For many of these cars they were purchased and then sold before any of this came out so if you sold it before it came out then you didn't get screwed. The only people that got screwed financially were the people that owned the cars when the news broke and now are facing the recall. 



Uberhare said:


> Straight from VW in their FAQ section:
> 
> https://www.vwdieselinfo.com/faqs/
> 
> ...


They could have worded their answer "Because of our superior German Engineering and our ability to defraud the EPA, your inadequate state tests will not catch the fact that your diesel car spews pollution into the atmosphere well above what is allowed by law." 



Peloton25 said:


> I think you'll find the answer here, along with an explanation that the site used isn't valid for checking the VINs of vehicles sold in North America.
> 
> http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=4908621
> 
> ...


I would never trust a seller stating that his car was not part of a massive recall without checking on it myself.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

dmorrow said:


> I would never trust a seller stating that his car was not part of a massive recall without checking on it myself.


You mean it isn't EVERY 2009-2015 VW TDI in the USA EXCEPT his?


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

> *New Volkswagen North America chief Winfried Vahland out after three weeks*
> 
> Volkswagen's newly appointed head of North America is leaving the company less than three weeks after he was assigned to that position, injecting a new measure of instability as the company navigates an emissions scandal.
> The sudden exit of Winfried Vahland gives the company's sweeping restructuring of its global operations a discombobulated feel, raising further questions about the future of its business in the U.S.
> ...


http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...fried-vahland-out-after-three-weeks/73916418/


----------



## vwguru714 (Aug 23, 2007)

Mazda 3s said:


> http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...fried-vahland-out-after-three-weeks/73916418/


I have to believe he saw the writing on the wall for the future of the brand in North America and decided he wanted no part of it. Or he did find out the Christmas bonus will be a strudel of the month membership. 
It would be interesting to know what the actual difference of opinion is.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## genjy (Aug 7, 2005)

TCL's favorite chairman, Bob Lutz:



> September 24, 2015
> 
> When reached for comment Bob Lutz gave FOXBusiness.com the following statement:
> 
> "The record is clear: GM always purchased components that promised high quality and safety. I personally authorized an additional several hundred dollars in per-unit cost to assure excellence in the Chevrolet Cobalt, the main user of the switches. When the problem first surfaced, and for years thereafter, management had no knowledge of the issue. It had been systematically hidden by a lower-level engineer. My point is that nobody at GM ever "wanted" to produce a defective ignition switch. But VW very definitely "wanted" to create the emissions-defeat system. One is negligence, the other a premeditated act."


http://www.foxbusiness.com/business...-apple-car-and-volkswagen-emissions-cheating/


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Mazda 3s said:


> http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...fried-vahland-out-after-three-weeks/73916418/


----------



## MN Mongo (Apr 30, 2013)

yup, and he's pissed about their planned NA strategy. great. which means they are planning more of the same crap. new models 2 years after ROW. limited configs. dealership lots filled with golf S and jetta S models (all automatic obviously) and basically nothing else


----------



## ScoobyWRX (Jul 3, 2012)

genjy said:


> TCL's favorite chairman, Bob Lutz:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.foxbusiness.com/business...-apple-car-and-volkswagen-emissions-cheating/


O Rly?

Not according to this NPR article:

http://www.npr.org/2014/03/31/297312252/the-long-road-to-gms-ignition-switch-recall

_"According to documents released Sunday, GM engineers received reports about problems like this — and held meetings about it — in 2005. Engineers decided against a fix because it would take too long and cost too much money.
A couple of months later, the company looked into another fix — and that plan was scratched, as well, though dealers were notified of a potential problem."_


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

ScoobyWRX said:


> O Rly?
> 
> Not according to this NPR article:
> 
> ...


According to the clip in the article that's exactly what Lutz said.



> September 24, 2015
> 
> When reached for comment Bob Lutz gave FOXBusiness.com the following statement:
> 
> "The record is clear: GM always purchased components that promised high quality and safety. I personally authorized an additional several hundred dollars in per-unit cost to assure excellence in the Chevrolet Cobalt, the main user of the switches. When the problem first surfaced, and for years thereafter, management had no knowledge of the issue. *It had been systematically hidden by a lower-level engineer.* My point is that nobody at GM ever "wanted" to produce a defective ignition switch. But VW very definitely "wanted" to create the emissions-defeat system. One is negligence, the other a premeditated act."


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Here's another headline: *VW may be sorry, but 'rolling coal' diesel polluters make no apologies
*
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-vw-diesel-polluters-rolling-coal-20151013-story.html



genjy said:


> If VW doesn't/can't fix the affected TDIs, they could be denied registration or even crushed.
> 
> The U.S. government doesn't mess around when it comes to vehicle compliance. Tread carefully.


They will be denied registration in CA and NY, almost certainly, after a certain time passes to
allow the owners to get the refit done. CARB like states already require an emissions
certification before registration. They pass as they are, they only know now, they really
do not. So, after the recall is issued, you should have the recall campaign time allotment to
have it fixed. It would be totally unfair to deny registration right now, or immediately after
the recall. 

Crushing; the USA already does that. You're allowed to bring an uncertified car in from another country
for 30 days, something like that. Customs will record the info, and so on. If you have that car here more
than 30 days, the FED is supposed to come take it, and crush it. There was a story a while back, about
a bunch of Dodge Vipers that all got crushed, they were no where near emissions legal, they were test cars,
something of the sort, and the FED had them all crushed. 



LieutenantShinySides said:


> 10,000


Damn, I thought I edited it and added the other zero! Typos
really do change things...



Skizzle1111 said:


> Saw this on a random 2012 Sportwagen TDI today
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I saw a link where you can run your VIN to check, but it doesn't work
with USA VINs. IF you put in a USA VIN, it will prodice that message. ALL
USA MODELS, '09 and up are effected, the VIN checker is not for US
model cars.



Peloton25 said:


> I think you'll find the answer here, along with an explanation that the site used isn't valid for checking the VINs of vehicles sold in North America.
> 
> http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=4908621
> 
> ...


Yeah, there it is...




Accidental L8 apex said:


> I'm no pro, but your poems really suck. :thumbdown:


I am sure it's more than you, that's not a pro, bro... You want poems, I can do
those if you want. I don't see any, nothing rhymes, but I can change all that
on a dime, to satisfy the accusation, but it's not a crime.



atomicalex said:


> Can you just stop contradicting yourself? It's cognitively dissonant and makes your posts impossible to take seriously. :banghead:
> 
> The whole line feed thing is kind of 80s, but whatever. :facepalm:


Yep, and a lot of other people's too. Do I care? No, you only get
riled up when it hits a nerve, thus hits home, don't they? I bet... It's
just text in a forum, so if it upsets you, or anyone, you may need to see a
shrink about that, because it hit a root problem in your psyche. No reason
anyone should be angry over text. When you read it, you hear a voice in
your head; what would be the problem, not the text itself. It is the 
mentally unstable people that get angry when they READ something; and
those are the ones you don't want to have an AR-15 or other firearm...


----------



## DrewSXR (Jul 26, 2000)

Chilcoot said:


> Not law.
> Not architecture.
> Not rocketry.
> Not surgery.


You forgot Marine Biologist, I've always wanted to be one.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

I hope the Harlequin model is ready before the holidays.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

VW is apparently testing the lower limits of the resale value of their cars.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Lwize said:


> VW is apparently testing the lower limits of the resale value of their cars.


What do you mean?


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

PowerslavePA said:


> Crushing; the USA already does that. You're allowed to bring an uncertified car in from another country for 30 days, something like that. Customs will record the info, and so on. If you have that car here more
> than 30 days, the FED is supposed to come take it, and crush it. There was a story a while back, about
> a bunch of Dodge Vipers that all got crushed, they were no where near emissions legal, they were test cars,
> something of the sort, and the FED had them all crushed.


Wow... I can't recall the last time I read a paragraph with more wrong information than that one. :facepalm:

Please just stick to verifiable facts because your supposition game is way off the mark and makes reading your posts all the more agonizing. 

As an example, Dodge had those Vipers crushed due to their own business interests. It had nothing to do with emissions and nothing at all to do with any action by the federal government.

>8^)
ER


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Peloton25 said:


> Wow... I can't recall the last time I read a paragraph with more wrong information than that one. :facepalm:
> 
> Please just stick to verifiable facts because your supposition game is way off the mark and makes reading your posts all the more agonizing.
> 
> ...


:laugh::thumbup:


Assumptions and incorrect information is not helpful. There is ZERO evidence these vehicles will be subject to emissions non-compliance if VW can't fix the problem. All indications point to them having a solution which will allow the vehicles to remain compliant.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

someguy123 said:


> But the original owner was the one who got screwed. The new owner is well aware of the issue and is hoping to "cash in".:sly:


maybe, but most likely not.

the original owner bought the car with the specs they were presented.
these cars are dating back to 2009 now.

many of the 09's are probably no longer with the original owners. maybe even traded away over 3 yrs ago.

i doubt the majority of those people feel screwed. i would venture that most of them are relieved they moved on well before these issues came to light.

the people who are screwed at the ones who bought 6mo-1yr ago, and now essentially hold a car that they dont know the worth of.
even our car at near 2 yrs old... its not something i am lining up to get rid of. likely too high of a hit on trade value, etc. we are going to have to wait the issue out for a while to see what makes the most sense.

and right now, that $2k owner loyalty is not enough


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

dunhamjr said:


> even our car at near 2 yrs old... its not something i am lining up to get rid of. likely too high of a hit on trade value, etc. we are going to have to wait the issue out for a while to see what makes the most sense.
> 
> and right now, that $2k owner loyalty is not enough


In the exact same boat. Bought my car in July 2013.


----------



## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

Lwize said:


> VW is apparently testing the lower limits of the resale value of their cars.





Chilcoot said:


> What do you mean?


x2


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Mazda 3s said:


> In the exact same boat. Bought my car in July 2013.


Same... Bought mine September 2014.... months after VW found out about the failure...


----------



## calhein (Oct 14, 2015)

At least you didn't buy yours 9 weeks ago...like i did haha


----------



## calhein (Oct 14, 2015)

E CODE said:


> Same... Bought mine September 2014.... months after VW found out about the failure...


At least you didn't buy yours 9 weeks ago...like i did haha


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

> *At least 30 VW managers knew of emissions cheat*
> 
> You know how the Volkswagen diesel scandal is very, very, very bad? Well, if a report from Germany's Der Spiegel is true, it's about to get a lot worse.
> 
> ...


http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/14/30-vw-managers-knew-emissions-cheat/


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Mazda 3s said:


> http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/14/30-vw-managers-knew-emissions-cheat/


¿Que? 30 managers sounds like a fairly small number to me.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

Air and water do mix said:


> ¿Que? 30 managers sounds like a fairly small number to me.


Except it directly contradicts the testimony Horn gave Congress. He said it was a small group of rogue engineers.

If any of the managers implied in that news article can be linked to Horn in ANY way, that's perjury, and he's potentially looking at jail time.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> ¿Que? 30 managers sounds like a fairly small number to me.





Maximum_Download said:


> Except it directly contradicts the testimony Horn gave Congress. He said it was a small group of rogue engineers.
> 
> If any of the managers implied in that news article can be linked to Horn in ANY way, that's perjury, and he's potentially looking at jail time.


30 managers, plus the engineers under them. These 30 managers also had supervisors and supervisors above them. Now, how many levels between them and Horn? I am sure we will find out. This just does not bode well for VW and I am sure there will be more to come out.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

*More VW trouble: 2016 diesels have new suspect software*
http://news.yahoo.com/2016-vw-diesels-software-affecting-emissions-tests-142019516--finance.html#

I like to start off ON subject, just in case....



Uberhare said:


> :laugh::thumbup:
> 
> 
> Assumptions and incorrect information is not helpful. There is ZERO evidence these vehicles will be subject to emissions non-compliance if VW can't fix the problem. All indications point to them having a solution which will allow the vehicles to remain compliant.


There is zero evidence, but that doesn't mean CARB like states have to allow them on 
their roads. The only way would be if the EPA grants exemptions on these cars for
whatever reason, that after every step was taken, and we lose so much power and MPG
that we don't want them anymore, to allow the exemption. California is pretty tough
on emissions, I don't see them allowing the cars there if it all fails, without an exemption. 

I remember when Ohio did not have safety inspections on their cars. I Saw a car from Ohio,
with a missing driver side fender, try to enter PA at the toll gate. The PA state trooper denied the
driver entry into PA with the unsafe car, my grandfather thought that was hilarious.
Never EVER seen that happen again, but Ohio has inspections every 2 years now, or as that just e-check? 




Peloton25 said:


> Wow... I can't recall the last time I read a paragraph with more wrong information than that one. :facepalm:
> 
> Please just stick to verifiable facts because your supposition game is way off the mark *and makes reading your posts all the more agonizing.
> *
> ...


Then don't read them. You said the paragraph was wrong, but only
pointed out the Viper issue, so what about the other subject? That
is true, but the days may be wrong, or conditions, but it is
true. However, they crush them immediately if they are found
to have come here illegally. Operation Atlantic was for Minis and
Land Rovers entering with altered VINs, and such. They altered
the VINS to make it look like an older car so emissions regulations
were skirted. 

93 of the first Dodge Vipers built in the early 1990s were crushed after they
had originally been given to technical schools around the country as learning tools.
They were pre-production cars, and don't need to meet safety or emissions regs,
under specific guidelines, they cannot be sold and they cannot be registered
to anyone other than the automaker that built the car. They actually do not
meet emissions standards. So, okay, that was not the reason they were
crushed, but for BUSINESS INTERESTS? No... They wouldn't even allow
one of them to a museum. Plus, who wants to drive cars that students
were poking and prodding for ten years...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> ¿Que? 30 managers sounds like a fairly small number to me.


Do you work for a major corporation? Most of my working life has been at companies with 100k employees or more. I can't even guess how large in scope something in my department would have to be for 30 managers to know about it. There's only 7 managers from my boss all the way to the CEO. Go more than about 6 managers wide and you're basically talking every single manager that has anything even remotely involved with my area of work. For 30 managers to know would mean everyone all the way to the CEO and multiple other managers at every level on down.

In other words - this really probably is just like I had suspected when the story first broke: a designed and accepted cheat that everyone who had anything to do with powertrain was notified of and signed off on.


----------



## Shomegrown (Feb 26, 2002)

Maximum_Download said:


> Except it directly contradicts the testimony Horn gave Congress. He said it was a small group of rogue engineers.
> 
> If any of the managers implied in that news article can be linked to Horn in ANY way, that's perjury, and he's potentially looking at jail time.





Phil Pugliese said:


> 30 managers, plus the engineers under them. These 30 managers also had supervisors and supervisors above them. Now, how many levels between them and Horn? I am sure we will find out. This just does not bode well for VW and I am sure there will be more to come out.


Horn is the CEO of an _importer_, not the company that actually designs and develops the cars.

Nobody in Germany reports to him. As he said during the testimony, he only knows what Germany tells him.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

Shomegrown said:


> Horn is the CEO of an _importer_, not the company that actually designs and develops the cars.
> 
> Nobody in Germany reports to him. As he said during the testimony, he only knows what Germany tells him.


That will likely be for a judge to decide at this point, which is exactly my point. Horn should be lawyering up, BIG time.

And I may as well say what some of us are saying privately: If this second cheat on the 2016 models is true, AND there are 30 or so senior managers with this mud on their hands?

*VW may be done in the US*. I hope thats not the case, but what was not possible last week is starting to look like a distinct possibility.


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

PowerslavePA said:


> You said the paragraph was wrong, but only pointed out the Viper issue, so what about the other subject?


The other part of what you wrote was so inaccurate and absurd that I didn't feel it really needed to be addressed. Let's repeat it here for an additional round of face-palming though:



> You're allowed to bring an uncertified car in from another country for 30 days, something like that. Customs will record the info, and so on. If you have that car here more than 30 days, the FED is supposed to come take it, and crush it.


Nothing like that actually. The original premise you've suggested there is simply untrue, therefore nothing else you said would be accurate either. I'm not saying our government doesn't crush illegal cars - everyone knows that to be the case, but there's no "Sure bring it in for 30 days but get it out before the time runs out or we crush it" scenario for un-certified cars. Not how it works at all. Most cars that get crushed were imported illegally to start with. 



PowerslavePA said:


> 93 of the first Dodge Vipers built in the early 1990s were crushed after they had originally been given to technical schools around the country as learning tools. They were pre-production cars, and don't need to meet safety or emissions regs, under specific guidelines, they cannot be sold and they cannot be registered to anyone other than the automaker that built the car. They actually do not meet emissions standards.
> 
> So, okay, that was not the reason they were crushed, but for BUSINESS INTERESTS? No... They wouldn't even allow one of them to a museum. Plus, who wants to drive cars that students were poking and prodding for ten years...


Yes, business interests. Here's the facts:

"At least two of the cars managed to make it to public roads and—big shock—were involved in accidents. Since Chrysler still technically owns the cars, the company is liable for any damages. The resulting lawsuits have cost the automaker millions of dollars." 

Source: http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/news/a7277/chrysler-crushing-first-vipers-video/

Research - that's how you come up with facts, and facts are what you should base your arguments on. Just because you own a keyboard and a have connection to the internet doesn't mean that anyone is interested in wading through the random thoughts of Powerslave. Give it a rest...

>8^)
ER


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Peloton25 said:


> The other part of what you wrote was so inaccurate and absurd that I didn't feel it really needed to be addressed. Let's repeat it here for an additional round of face-palming though:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


call the burn unit stat!!! we have someone critical!!!!


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Phil Pugliese said:


> 30 managers, plus the engineers under them. These 30 managers also had supervisors and supervisors above them. Now, how many levels between them and Horn? I am sure we will find out. This just does not bode well for VW and I am sure there will be more to come out.


I agree completely, 30 managers could supervise hundreds.

If indeed 30 design managers knew about the defeat device, that's a lot. As far as legal consequences go, it might as well have been everyone at VW who knew.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

Mazda 3s said:


> In the exact same boat. Bought my car in July 2013.


I never thought I'd say this, but... I'm so glad I _leased_ my TDI. Whew!

When I returned my leased CC, the dealership went and bought it from VW Credit. It was on their lot for a few weeks after that. I'm going to take a wild guess here and say that will not be the case when I bring back the Jetta :laugh: 



vbora01 said:


> Am I the only one seeing a touch of potential from this... it's not like the TDI drivetrain itself is that undesirable.


After 5 months with mine, I disagree. As I've posted elsewhere, Diesel is a PITA in the USA. And my car's throttle response seems to have the same random number generator as Edmunds' long-term tester.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> ¿Que? 30 managers sounds like a fairly small number to me.


It depends on what the title actually is after all, because the word "manager" is very generic in the industry. A "manager" could be a leading supervisors in various disciplines... or they could be an assistant Chief or Chief Engineer. Or they could be a Program Manager. Then you move up to Directors who are managers in a sense. Then Executive Directors. And numerous flavors in between.

It should not come as a surprise that more people 'know', because as I noted before... the Vehicle Development Process for any auto industry company is thick with disciplines/groups doing various things in step with each other. And from one phase to the next there are approval processes where groups of bosses are made aware of issues and resolutions (i.e. I'm sure VW didn't start out their TDI strategy with "Cheat Device" on any PowerPoint presentation. They were trying to do the impossible... for pride. For Ferdinand. As they got closer and closer to deadlines for hardware/software solutions to be frozen... they realized it wasn't possible to meet the EPA regs. That's when the regrettable choices were made, but that also means every "manager" directly tied to the program would know as it would have been discussed in program management meetings... after the decision(s) were made in whatever closed-door meeting of the top folks. And why would we know it was top folks that made the decision? Naturally because grunts haven't the balls to risk their basic existence over such a crazy thing. Everybody knows full well this isn't manufacturing toothpicks... it's cars! You cannot hide such a big change in such a large development process.).

I'm still going with the theory that once the fateful decision is made (and it was likely made at a late stage where making the 'right' fix would have caused certain delays (huge delays... head-rolling delays))...

>The problem becomes a beastly snow ball that grows larger as it rolls down hill... picking up speed. 
> Smart people (grunt and managers alike) will jump out of the way for fear of life (career). 
>Some will get caught and smashed (those trying to stop it) into the hill side. 
>Then the snow ball takes flight off a ramp at the bottom of the mountain (TDI is launched to great celebration). 
>The folks at the bottom (public and fans) watch a glorious scene as this magnificent ball makes for great, ballistic visuals, 
> But the folks on the mountain (VW workers in the know) watch in disbelief... knowing full well it will land with great impact. 
> BAM!!! Anderson Cooper milks story to no end.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

g-man_ae said:


> After 5 months with mine, I disagree. As I've posted elsewhere, Diesel is a PITA in the USA. And my car's throttle response seems to have the same random number generator as Edmunds' long-term tester.


That's pretty hilarious. I have for a while wanted to get a synced video between putting the foot all the way to the floor in my hybrid and getting any kind of response. A good 2 second delay for anything to kick in, then another 2 seconds or so to get up to full power. Really need to plan ahead if you want to do anything.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

I'm going to go look at a 2011 and a 2012 Golf TDI cars this evening to buy. Would I be better off playing Russian Roulette with a 1911 45 ACP??


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

PowerslavePA said:


> but Ohio has inspections every 2 years now, or as that just e-check?
> 
> 
> 
> Then don't read them.


Nope, no inspections of any kind and no e-check. Maybe it'd be easier for you to not just pound out misinformation like you're about to miss a deadline. Saves you the time of posting in the first place and everyone else the time of constantly correcting everything you do post. Pretty sure your batting 1,000 for your own counterpoints. opcorn:


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

"Manager" in German basically means salaried employee with a non-terminating contract.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Nope, no inspections of any kind and no e-check. Maybe it'd be easier for you to not just pound out misinformation like you're about to miss a deadline. Saves you the time of posting in the first place and everyone else the time of constantly correcting everything you do post. Pretty sure your batting 1,000 for your own counterpoints. opcorn:


Actually, Ohio has emissions check. But some sparsely populated Ohio counties do not do emissions check in order to save money.

My county (Lorain) has emissions check, every 2 years. If your car is 25 years old or newer, it must be checked - gas and diesel.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

GoHomePossum said:


> Actually, Ohio has emissions check. But some sparsely populated Ohio counties do not do emissions check in order to save money.
> 
> My county (Lorain) has emissions check, every 2 years. If your car is 25 years old or newer, it must be checked - gas and diesel.


Each state is different. California is the exception. I know in my state WA most counties require emissions testing but in Stevens County where I live it is not required regardless of year or make/model.

From WA State DOL here are the following counties and zip codes requiring emissions testing for reference. This goes to prove it is NOT a state-wide thing:

http://www.emissiontestwa.com/e/ZipCodes/Zip_codes07.pdf


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

OOOO-A3 said:


> Never apologize for fact-based smackdowns. :thumbup:


This

ALL...

DAY...

LONG...

:beer::thumbup:


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

classicjetta said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> I realize they're pushing the "we're trying to be green and environmentally friendly!" PR right now, but I really hope they don't just ignore North America going forward. I've said it before but I'll say it again, canceling the rollout of the Mexico-built MQB Tiguan spells the end for VWoA.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

2016s just confirmed to have a second layer of emissions cheat software.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Maximum_Download said:


> 2016s just confirmed to have a second layer of emissions cheat software.


"confirmed" by whom???


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

Uberhare said:


> Each state is different. California is the exception.


Even in California it is not applied across the entire state. Essentially there are three testing programs:



> *Program Areas*
> 
> All areas of California require Smog Check certifications when a specified model-year vehicle changes ownership or is registered for the first time in California. The Smog Check Program divides the state into the following areas:
> 
> ...


This map shows how it is broken down across the different regions.

http://smogcheck.ca.gov/pdf/Program_Map.pdf

>8^)
ER


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

And wait, there is more...

There could be a second cheat device in 2016 TDI's. No wonder they decided not to get them federalized.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

atomicalex said:


> "Manager" in German basically means salaried employee with a non-terminating contract.


Where does one sign up for this?


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Phil Pugliese said:


> And wait, there is more...
> 
> There could be a second cheat device in 2016 TDI's. No wonder they decided not to get them federalized.


I feel like shoes keep dropping. It's like being underneath Imelda Marcos' discard pile. 

Dated once-topical jokes, heyooo


----------



## MeineFolks'wagen (May 8, 2002)

So between this and the European Union pushing to eliminate diesels from the roads, does anyone see Volkswagen just dropping diesels from their lineup altogether in the near future?


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Turbio! said:


> I feel like shoes keep dropping. It's like being underneath Imelda Marcos' discard pile.
> 
> Dated once-topical jokes, heyooo


lol! :laugh:


After the initial report, the second layer in the 2016s is the first thing that's surprised me this much. 

Wow. If they ever sell another diesel in the U.S. perhaps that'll surprise me as much.


----------



## genjy (Aug 7, 2005)

This is the best automotive drama in my lifetime yet. The Explorer-Firestone thing was alright. 

This VW diesel scandal is just so juicy and suspenseful. :thumbup:


----------



## VarianceVQ (Jun 26, 2005)

I think VKLAY hitting $23 was the floor. It's been creeping back up and just hovering around $28-29 now. Subsequent bad news hasn't been having as great an impact.


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

genjy said:


> This is the best automotive drama in my lifetime yet. The Explorer-Firestone thing was alright.
> 
> This VW diesel scandal is just so juicy and suspenseful. :thumbup:


Eh, welcome to a world of 24/7 access to the media and social forums like Facebook. Could you imagine what scandals of days past would be like in current media trends?

I'm still along the lines that this sucks, and I hope that someday there is a recovery and some sense knocked into the brand globally. That's going to have to be a substantial knock.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

genjy said:


> This is the best automotive drama in my lifetime yet. The Explorer-Firestone thing was alright.
> 
> This VW diesel scandal is just so juicy and suspenseful. :thumbup:


I Keep refreshing my Google feed. it IS tomorrow in Germany. Popcorn!


----------



## MeineFolks'wagen (May 8, 2002)

Air and water do mix said:


> lol! :laugh:
> 
> 
> After the initial report, the second layer in the 2016s is the first thing that's surprised me this much.
> ...


Yeah, I just read an article about the 2016's :facepalm:


----------



## Charles Devine (Aug 22, 2007)

Phil Pugliese said:


> And wait, there is more...
> 
> There could be a second cheat device in 2016 TDI's. No wonder they decided not to get them federalized.





Turbio! said:


> I feel like shoes keep dropping. It's like being underneath Imelda Marcos' discard pile.
> 
> Dated once-topical jokes, heyooo





Air and water do mix said:


> lol! :laugh:
> 
> 
> After the initial report, the second layer in the 2016s is the first thing that's surprised me this much.
> ...





MeineFolks'wagen said:


> Yeah, I just read an article about the 2016's :facepalm:



As an FYI to anyone who actually wants to educate themselves on the 2016's 

"The heater boosts the performance of the catalyst even in conditions when the exhaust is cold, hence reducing emissions even further than they would be otherwise. That is needed as SCR catalysts are only operating at a certain temperature, hence the boost.Since these devices (in this case a simple heater) are controlling (here improving) the emissions, they have to be declared as "Emissions Control Devices".
It is NOT a defeat but rather an IMPROVEMENT to your air."

Anyone who has taken general automotive courses dealing with emissions should know this, this is essentially what your secondary air injection system is, and common on all vehicles to meet the strict California emissions standards. The writers of these articles do absolutely no research any longer and just spew quite literally any **** that will get their website views from uneducated individuals who believe anything on the internet. I'm a ****ing french model b!tch Bon jur! :laugh: PS this isn't a crack at any of you all just a quote from a fellow tech to help educate the thread. Don't worry peeps!

-Charles


----------



## MeineFolks'wagen (May 8, 2002)

Yeah, it's just bad timing for them given the exposure they are receiving. Maybe I shouldn't be trying to by a VW again right now :laugh:


----------



## Sledge (May 15, 2005)

Turbio! said:


> I feel like shoes keep dropping. It's like being underneath Imelda Marcos' discard pile.
> 
> Dated once-topical jokes, heyooo


God you're old :laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## NoDubJustYet (Mar 25, 2002)

I wonder if I can get the VW dealer down the street from HQ to honor the corrosion warranty on my MkV?

Foster some good will?


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

Further proof that the TDI scandal reach is growing by the minute: Entertainment Tonight just reported that Vin Diesel just changed his name to Vin Number.


----------



## gonzo08452 (Apr 17, 2006)

...and Shaq no longer calls himself The Diesel


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

*'Dozens of managers' involved in VW's pollution cheating*
http://news.yahoo.com/dozens-managers-involved-vws-pollution-cheating-report-151105751.html



Peloton25 said:


> The other part of what you wrote was so inaccurate and absurd that I didn't feel it really needed to be addressed. Let's repeat it here for an additional round of face-palming though:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then explain it; research it, then do so. You'll see, it's something
to that effect. 



You'reDrunk said:


> call the burn unit stat!!! we have someone critical!!!!


You're under the impression that I care, or are even bothered by
anything anyone says. Ha, no, I'm not. I'll be just fine, you'll see, or read...



Accidental L8 apex said:


> Nope, no inspections of any kind and no e-check. Maybe it'd be easier for you to not just pound out misinformation like you're about to miss a deadline. Saves you the time of posting in the first place and everyone else the time of constantly correcting everything you do post. Pretty sure your batting 1,000 for your own counterpoints. opcorn:


The Ohio ECheck Program: http://www.epa.state.oh.us/dapc/echeck/whyecheck/ohio_echeck.aspx

What was that now? I lived in Ohio for just over a year, Cuyahoga county, 
they required Echeck. Fortunately, I never registered my PA car in Ohio.
It's only 8 northern counties (as of 2010), so you lied, you said NONE, and
you're wrong, not totally, but you just pounded out a little bit of misinformation yourself.

Wasn't sure on inspections, I was told every 2-years for a safety inspection.
Ohio says, before you put an automobile on the road, you're going to need to have it
inspected. Ohio inspects motor vehicles for different reasons ranging from legitimacy
of the parts to environmental protection. New residents moving to the state of Ohio or
those registering a car for the first time should be aware of Ohio's auto inspection laws

Ohio has laws that specifically pertain to salvaged and self-assembled automobile inspections.
This inspection process does not attempt to determine if your salvaged or self-assembled car
is ready for the road, safe or competently put together. Rather, the salvage inspection seeks
to ensure that you legitimately own all the parts the vehicle.

So yeah, they do have some sort of inspection laws, so you're not being
totally factual either. You laid down a blanketed NONE for both.... Can't
do that when it exists.

Ohio has the ****tiest cars on the roads, that I have seen. The state is 5-years
behind the times. I made a killing selling out-dated technology there. By far one 
of the dirtiest places I have ever been to, glad I left, though I hate Pennsylvania
even more, but it is where the money is, and it's cleanER, everywhere...

Like my post aren't giving you guys something to do, make you feel good and
hearty with your replies; lovin' it.... Oh, and I don't care, it's fun, it's the
internet so it all has to be true, ha ha ha....


----------



## limastock (Feb 17, 2009)

Charles Devine said:


> As an FYI to anyone who actually wants to educate themselves on the 2016's
> 
> "The heater boosts the performance of the catalyst even in conditions when the exhaust is cold, hence reducing emissions even further than they would be otherwise. That is needed as SCR catalysts are only operating at a certain temperature, hence the boost.Since these devices (in this case a simple heater) are controlling (here improving) the emissions, they have to be declared as "Emissions Control Devices".
> It is NOT a defeat but rather an IMPROVEMENT to your air."
> ...



:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

randy said:


> Further proof that the TDI scandal reach is growing by the minute: Entertainment Tonight just reported that Vin Diesel just changed his name to Vin Number.





gonzo08452 said:


> ...and Shaq no longer calls himself The Diesel


For some, this isn't so easy.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

According to Der Spiegel, Germany is now enforcing a mandatory recall. VW was suggesting a voluntary one.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

GoHomePossum said:


> Actually, Ohio has emissions check. But some sparsely populated Ohio counties do not do emissions check in order to save money.
> 
> My county (Lorain) has emissions check, every 2 years. If your car is 25 years old or newer, it must be checked - gas and diesel.


Actually, only 7 of 88 Ohio counties still e-check, hence my confusion. :thumbup:

I know Dayton, Columbus and Cincy don't do them anymore and assumed since three of the biggest cities don't, nobody did. Looks like it's mainly the Cleveland area. Got me all Powerslavin' up in hurr now. :facepalm:


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Sledge said:


> God you're old :laugh::laugh::laugh:


I'm not old, I'm dry-aged.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

PowerslavePA said:


> Ohio has the ****tiest cars on the roads, that I have seen. The state is 5-years
> behind the times. I made a killing selling out-dated technology there. By far one
> of the dirtiest places I have ever been to, glad I left, though I hate Pennsylvania
> even more, but it is where the money is, and it's cleanER, everywhere...


Is this where I join in like a trained monkey and start a back and forth over whose state sucks less? You're in Pennsyltucky and I'm in Ohi-er. That's like married cousins fighting over an ice cream cone that just fell in the dirt. Please, just take the cone and go. :thumbup:


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Is this where I join in like a trained monkey and start a back and forth over whose state sucks less? You're in Pennsyltucky and I'm in Ohi-er. That's like married cousins fighting over an ice cream cone that just fell in the dirt. Please, just take the cone and go. :thumbup:


This guy gets it. :thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

www.tdiclub.com : "Server too busy"


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

PowerslavePA said:


> Then explain it; research it, then do so. You'll see, it's something
> to that effect.


It is not anyone's job to educate you on all the facts. I've done many years of research on vehicle importation and I have thorough understanding of the methods available to legally import non-compliant vehicles into the USA, as well as the many ways people have tried to do so illegally as well. I've followed several instances where vehicles have been seized, and you might find this surprising, but not all of them get crushed. In all those years I've seen it is nothing "to that effect" which is why I called out your malarkey in the first place. 

If you really care to know you can do your own research, but of course it is so much easier to spew nonsense that it's clear you won't bother. I can leave you with a bit of advice though:

"Tis better to remain silent and be judged a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubts."

You're right about one thing though - you'll be fine. As they often say, ignorance is bliss. 

>8^)
ER


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

GoFaster said:


> www.tdiclub.com : "Server too busy"


Works fine for me


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

GoHomePossum said:


> Actually, Ohio has emissions check. But some sparsely populated Ohio counties do not do emissions check in order to save money.
> 
> My county (Lorain) has emissions check, every 2 years. If your car is 25 years old or newer, it must be checked - gas and diesel.


I think only 7 of the 88 counties in Ohio have emissions testing so it goes well past "some sparsely populated Ohio counties". Nowhere around Cincinnati has it.

These do -


> Cuyahoga, Geauga, Lake, Lorain, Medina, Portage, or Summit counties


----------



## jannikt (Sep 25, 2015)

Germany authorities (KBA) rejected VW proposal for a "voluntary" service campaign and mandated a formal recall of all 2.4 TDI cars in Germany.
http://www.dw.com/en/germany-orders-mass-recall-of-vw-cars/a-18784354

I am sure all other EU countries will follow and order a recall as well. Other countries will probably follow suit and eventually all 11 million cars will end up subject to mandatory recalls.

VW won't be able to get off the hook easily from this one. This is no longer a US problem but a full-scale global issue.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

jannikt said:


> Germany authorities (KBA) rejected VW proposal for a "voluntary" service campaign and mandated a formal recall of all 2.4 TDI cars in Germany.
> http://www.dw.com/en/germany-orders-mass-recall-of-vw-cars/a-18784354
> 
> I am sure all other EU countries will follow and order a recall as well. Other countries will probably follow suit and eventually all 11 million cars will end up subject to mandatory recalls.
> ...


Welcome to 2 weeks ago


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

Hajduk said:


> Works fine for me


Sarcasm, lol.


----------



## jannikt (Sep 25, 2015)

It's official now, 8.5 vehicles formally recalled in Europe. VW tried to soften the blow through a voluntary "service campaign", which would be less costly and less damaging to their reputation, but as expected, this approach failed to convince EU regulators.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34536573



> KBA earlier rejected VW's proposals that car owners could voluntarily bring their cars in for repair


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

jannikt said:


> It's official now, 8.5 vehicles formally recalled in Europe.]


No biggie, I've had more cars than that parked at my place for a barnyard sex party. FTR the half a car was a toyota tacoma that had not yet been repaired by the recall.


----------



## pasateando (Mar 19, 2002)

uncleho said:


> It depends on what the title actually is after all, because the word "manager" is very generic in the industry. A "manager" could be a leading supervisors in various disciplines... or they could be an assistant Chief or Chief Engineer. Or they could be a Program Manager. Then you move up to Directors who are managers in a sense. Then Executive Directors. And numerous flavors in between.
> 
> It should not come as a surprise that more people 'know', because as I noted before... the Vehicle Development Process for any auto industry company is thick with disciplines/groups doing various things in step with each other. And from one phase to the next there are approval processes where groups of bosses are made aware of issues and resolutions (i.e. I'm sure VW didn't start out their TDI strategy with "Cheat Device" on any PowerPoint presentation. They were trying to do the impossible... for pride. For Ferdinand. As they got closer and closer to deadlines for hardware/software solutions to be frozen... they realized it wasn't possible to meet the EPA regs. That's when the regrettable choices were made, but that also means every "manager" directly tied to the program would know as it would have been discussed in program management meetings... after the decision(s) were made in whatever closed-door meeting of the top folks. And why would we know it was top folks that made the decision? Naturally because grunts haven't the balls to risk their basic existence over such a crazy thing. Everybody knows full well this isn't manufacturing toothpicks... it's cars! You cannot hide such a big change in such a large development process.).
> 
> ...


Coming from the Auto Industry, I loved this nut shell explanation/theory! :thumbup::beer:


----------



## Sortafast (Oct 6, 2001)

GoFaster said:


> www.tdiclub.com : "Server too busy"


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Charles Devine said:


> As an FYI to anyone who actually wants to educate themselves on the 2016's
> 
> "The heater boosts the performance of the catalyst even in conditions when the exhaust is cold, hence reducing emissions even further than they would be otherwise. That is needed as SCR catalysts are only operating at a certain temperature, hence the boost.Since these devices (in this case a simple heater) are controlling (here improving) the emissions, they have to be declared as "Emissions Control Devices".
> It is NOT a defeat but rather an IMPROVEMENT to your air."
> ...


so, to be clear, this helps the emissions get cleaner sooner, so it doesn't have to wait for the engine to reach optimal temps. Ie, not illegal.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Is this where I join in like a trained monkey and start a back and forth over whose state sucks less? You're in Pennsyltucky and I'm in Ohi-er. That's like married cousins fighting over an ice cream cone that just fell in the dirt. Please, just take the cone and go. :thumbup:


isn't it ironic that despite his outspoken hatred for Pennsylvania, _his user name has the abbreviation for it_?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

GoHomeBroke said:


> so, to be clear, this helps the emissions get cleaner sooner, so it doesn't have to wait for the engine to reach optimal temps. Ie, not illegal.


That would be the logical conclusion but yet VW pulled the EPA application, didn't it? So someone must not have reached the logical conclusion.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

spockcat said:


> That would be the logical conclusion but yet VW pulled the EPA application, didn't it? So someone must not have reached the logical conclusion.


the issue is that the additional code had NOT BEEN APPROVED, regardless of how it worked. they can't use code related to emissions without the EPA reviewing and approving it.

THAT is the issue.


----------



## Charles Devine (Aug 22, 2007)

GoHomeBroke said:


> so, to be clear, this helps the emissions get cleaner sooner, so it doesn't have to wait for the engine to reach optimal temps. Ie, not illegal.


Correct :thumbup:

-Charles


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

You'reDrunk said:


> the issue is that the additional code had NOT BEEN APPROVED, regardless of how it worked. they can't use code related to emissions without the EPA reviewing and approving it.
> 
> THAT is the issue.


I guess the application process is a confusing one. I would have thought if you submit an application to EPA they would then have to review it (the coding included). If you pull your application, then they wouldn't have to review it.


----------



## guten_tiguan (Dec 9, 2011)

GoHomeBroke said:


> so, to be clear, this helps the emissions get cleaner sooner, so it doesn't have to wait for the engine to reach optimal temps. Ie, not illegal.


Should not be illegal, unless some people at VW made it behave this way only during emissions testing :laugh:


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

The other thing that complicates the "clean diesel" versus "auxiliary emission control device" situation is this ...

With a standard gasoline engine, and with diesel engines up to that point in time (before "clean diesel"), they have single defined operating conditions. Given a certain torque demand and a certain RPM and a certain coolant temperature etc, the fuel delivery is X operating under closed-loop control, the EGR setting is Y, the ignition timing is Z, etc. There is a determined, single set point for all of these values and the engine always operates the same way given the same input conditions (RPM, torque demand, coolant temperature, etc). There is a different strategy used during warm-up before the oxygen sensor and catalyst are up to temperature but that is also a single, defined set of parameters (and ought to be disclosed as an "auxiliary emission control device").

The "clean diesel" is a different situation because at any point in time with that same torque demand from the driver and RPM and equally warmed up (after the cold-start and warm-up period has passed), it could be (A) operating normally, (B) regenerating the DPF actively, (C) regenerating the DPF passively, (D) regenerating the LNT actively, (E) regenerating the LNT passively, and probably a bunch of other combinations of these.

Is a 20-ish minute Federal Test Procedure (or, for that matter, NEDC in Europe) that begins from a cold start sufficient for the test procedure to "see" all of these possible operating conditions ... I would venture to say "no". If the test is prescribed to begin with a cold start (which it does), the length of that procedure probably isn't enough to even start a DPF regeneration, nevermind see it through to completion. LNT regeneration takes seconds and happens frequently (assuming the system is actually being used ...)

What happens to real-world emissions during a DPF regeneration (lean high-EGT operation) or during a LNT regeneration (slightly rich operation with high EGR - which is a recipe for high soot production which would load up the DPF)?

VW is not the only manufacturer to have this situation. The other manufacturers of "clean diesels" subject to the Federal Test Procedure - BMW, Mercedes, FiatChrysler, GM - would have the same situation (aside from the operating conditions for regenerating the LNT, which no one else uses in North America, although it is used by many manufacturers in Europe).

I have no idea how all of these respective manufacturers have handled this and how the EPA has handled this.

If the other manufacturers disclosed all of the logic to the EPA (subject, of course, to non-disclosure agreements) then the EPA surely would have had staff which saw discrepancies between what the other manufacturers had disclosed, and what VW had disclosed (or had not disclosed, as the case may be). While every one of them would have had non-disclosure agreements with the EPA, surely it wouldn't have stopped EPA staff from asking pointed questions in the closed-door meetings concerning VW's EPA applications.


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Is this where I join in like a trained monkey and start a back and forth over whose state sucks less? You're in Pennsyltucky and I'm in Ohi-er. That's like married cousins fighting over an ice cream cone that just fell in the dirt. Please, just take the cone and go. :thumbup:


This is sigworthy. 

:beer:


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Still don't entirely think VW should be singled out with that EPA Chief
Gina McCarthy; she likes to lie, a lot! 

She has lied to Congress, she's lied under oath, and what's worse is that
she's lied to defend an EPA regulation that restricts our freedoms, expands
the government's regulatory power, and costs us jobs.

McCarthy is being accused of lying about the science used to write the EPA rule on Clean Water, 
the regulation of ozone levels, and the possibility that the EPA withholding highway funds from
states that don’t bend over and kiss her a$$. Under her RULE, the EPA has withheld funds 13
times in the last 20 years.

McCarthy also lied about states not being held responsible for background ozone.
This includes smog that occurs naturally or passes over the state coming from other
states. As it turns out, states are going to be held accountable, and that enforcement
is at the discretion of the EPA, well, HER. 

She can't answer basic questions about global temperatures, climate models or numbers
of hurricanes. She didn't know being a global warming zealot requires knowledge of math.

This woman has no place running the EPA. Lie after bold-faced lie, designed to gain a desired
outcome of increased government power, and wealth for bureaucratic cronies. 

THIS is the EPA that's going after VW, just as bad, and lies just as much, and knew
over a year ago.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

PowerslavePA said:


> Still don't entirely think VW should be singled out with that EPA Chief
> Gina McCarthy; she likes to lie, a lot!
> 
> She has lied to Congress, she's lied under oath, and what's worse is that
> ...


*
We've reduced PowerslavePA to cutting and pasting from right-wing hate sites:*









Source.

Pathetic.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

Chilcoot said:


> *
> We've reduced PowerslavePA to cutting and pasting from right-wing hate sites:*
> 
> 
> ...


That's grounds for dismiss right there.


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

Chilcoot said:


> *We've reduced PowerslavePA to cutting and pasting from right-wing hate sites:*
> 
> Pathetic.


I had a feeling those opinions, whether accurate or not (?), were simply too well formed to have originated from him. 

Can't decide if "too funny" or "too sad"? Still :facepalm: though for sure.

>8^)
ER


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Gotta hand it to the moron (I think?) for sticking it out, despite repeatedly being given the smack down.

It's making for some decent comedy, at least.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

*VW customers demand answers and compensation over emissions scandal *
http://www.theguardian.com/business...swers-and-compensation-over-emissions-scandal

Compensated for NOTHING right now, everyone's greedy... I suppose someone
needs to average out breaths per minute, and pay us $x.xx for breathing in
the NOX gasses. Sure why not, people want paid before they're hurt... Can't
put a payment on disappointment, that's stupid, but what the greedy want.




Rabbit5GTI said:


> Gotta hand it to the moron (I think?) for sticking it out, despite repeatedly being given the smack down.
> 
> It's making for some decent comedy, at least.


'Cause I don't care. Shows how nasty one human being can be
towards another, just because. I don't care, keep smacking, I am here,
YOU are there. Doesn't bother me one bit, but it bothers YOU guys.
It's the internet, so it's all true, no matter what. Wait till someone really
gets a nerve pinch and starts the profanities. 

Like I said, Crooked Government, Crooked Companies, they
all sleep together and have bastard scandals as children, then
want someone else to clean up after them.

The bitch heading the EPA is a liar, nothing will change that,
and THAT is what's governing emissions laws; self serving
thieves.

Ha, wait till some of you see what actually happens with this VW
crap, then I will laugh, and laugh and laugh...


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Is this where I join in like a trained monkey and start a back and forth over whose state sucks less? You're in Pennsyltucky and I'm in Ohi-er. That's like married cousins fighting over an ice cream cone that just fell in the dirt. Please, just take the cone and go. :thumbup:


This is amazing. :thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

PnZrFsT said:


> This guy gets it. :thumbup::thumbup:





DerSpiegel said:


> This is sigworthy.
> 
> :beer:





OOOO-A3 said:


> This is amazing. :thumbup::thumbup:


Appreciations, a one week moderator-induced hiatus has cleared the head.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

I have finally populated my ignore list.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

PowerslavePA said:


> 'Cause I don't care.


Except you so obviously do. Nobody multiquotes an argument they don't give a **** about.


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

Thought this was interesting

“You can’t criminally prosecute auto makers for using the defeat device under the Clean Air Act,” said John Walke, a senior attorney at the National Resources Defense Council, an environmental group. “But you can prosecute them for the result of using the defeat device, which is making a false representation to EPA—assuming the facts bear that out.”

Oh yeah and just a reminder about the EPA did they punish themselves over this mess?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Car Problems said:


> Oh yeah and just a reminder about the EPA did they punish themselves over this mess?


No, but due to their negligence a house landed on my step mother and I plan to file suit accordingly.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Turbio! said:


> Except you so obviously do. Nobody multiquotes an argument they don't give a **** about.


Naa, I don't, it's fun watching people get damaged over text on the internet.


----------



## nm+ (Jan 6, 2006)

PowerslavePA said:


> Naa, I don't, it's fun watching people get damaged over text on the internet.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Gotta hand it to the moron (I think?) for sticking it out, despite repeatedly being given the smack down.
> 
> It's making for some decent comedy, at least.


At this point its the equivalent of you guys placing your big hairy balls menacingly on the table and then proceeding to beat him to a bloody pulp with them. And yet, I can't turn away...:laugh: Poor guy.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Turbio! said:


> Except you so obviously do. Nobody multiquotes an argument they don't give a **** about.


Well, no one right in the head does.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Car Problems said:


> Thought this was interesting
> 
> “You can’t criminally prosecute auto makers for using the defeat device under the Clean Air Act,” said John Walke, a senior attorney at the National Resources Defense Council, an environmental group. “But you can prosecute them for the result of using the defeat device, which is making a false representation to EPA—assuming the facts bear that out.”
> 
> Oh yeah and just a reminder about the EPA did they punish themselves over this mess?


I don't know why people keep bringing up the river spills.
The EPA is contracting jobs to clean up waste water and sediment from abandoned mines (cleaning up old messes left by others).
Contractors made mistakes around very loose soil.
It's not like the EPA intentionally commited fraud for profit.
But I guess this is now the auto-response to any EPA related topic to try and discredit them?


----------



## Chmeeee (Jun 24, 2002)

PowerslavePA said:


> 'Cause I don't care.


Doesn't care.

Posts 33 angry ranting posts.

Sure thing bud.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

BRealistic said:


> I don't know why people keep bringing up the river spills.
> The EPA is contracting jobs to clean up waste water and sediment from abandoned mines (cleaning up old messes left by others).
> Contractors made mistakes around very loose soil.
> It's not like the EPA intentionally commited fraud for profit.
> But I guess this is now the auto-response to any EPA related topic to try and discredit them?


X2.

EPA fining themselves (somehow paying money to themselves??) and requiring themselves to clean it up as best they can (I believe this is happening) would make people happy?

I don't believe a group of people in the EPA decided to get around the regulations and discharge this mess into the river on purpose (see VW) and even if they did it wouldn't change my opinion or what should happen to others breaking the law.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

*Fix may soon be ready for Volkswagen Passat diesel engines*
_U.S. regulators say they expect a fix for 2012-2014 Passat, but owners of other models must wait_

The Canadian Press 
Posted: Oct 15, 2015 4:05 PM ET Last Updated: Oct 15, 2015 4:05 PM ET

U.S. regulators say they expect to receive a proposed fix later this week for some diesel Volkswagens caught up in the German automaker's emissions-rigging scandal.

Environmental Protection Agency spokeswoman Laura Allen said Thursday the proposed software patch would be for 2012 to 2014 Passat TDI models. The sedans have what VW refers to as its Second Generation emissions control technology. About 90,000 of these cars were sold in the United States.

Volkswagen ordered to recall 2.4 million vehicles in Germany with emissions-evading software
Regulators must approve the proposed fix before it can be distributed to VW dealers and uploaded to customers' cars.

Owners of cars in the Generation 1 and Generation 3 categories are expected to have a longer wait. That incudes nearly 400,000 diesel versions of the 2009 to 2015 model year Jettas, Golfs and Beetles, as well as 2015 Passats.

Volkswagen Canada reiterated today that there is no timetable in place yet for the recall.

"Canada and the United States will co-ordinate our efforts so that customers on both sides of the border will have the same timing for the work to be done to their vehicles," a spokesman said in an email to CBC. 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/fix-may-soon-be-ready-for-volkswagen-passat-diesel-engines-1.3273187


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

BRealistic said:


> I don't know why people keep bringing up the river spills.
> The EPA is contracting jobs to clean up waste water and sediment from abandoned mines (cleaning up old messes left by others).
> Contractors made mistakes around very loose soil.
> It's not like the EPA intentionally commited fraud for profit.
> But I guess this is now the auto-response to any EPA related topic to try and discredit them?


Exactly. It's just a straw man for government hating TDI lovers.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

VW suspends former diesel engine chief, report says



> BERLIN (Reuters) -- Volkswagen Group has suspended the executive who oversaw the development of diesel engines at the center of a global diesel-emissions rigging scandal, sources said.
> 
> Two people familiar with the matter said VW had suspended Falko Rudolph, who was in charge of diesel engines between 2006 and 2010, as part of its investigation into the wrongdoing, which has already seen three top engineers suspended
> 
> ...


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

There was a really bad high speed train accident in Germany many years ago.. . May have even been the 90s.
That story of blatant corporate incompetence and how the victims were unable to get anything out of the company responsible really showed me that German laws (then) protected corporations.
In order to sue a company, you have to find the individual in that company responsible and sue them.
Has that changed since then?
In that atmosphere, where you don't get penalized for mistakes in civil cases unless the single individual in the company that caused the problem is found (and with compelling evidence)....
What if an Oliver North is never found (or created)?


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

BRealistic said:


> I don't know why people keep bringing up the river spills.
> The EPA is contracting jobs to clean up waste water and sediment from abandoned mines (cleaning up old messes left by others).
> Contractors made mistakes around very loose soil.
> It's not like the EPA intentionally commited fraud for profit.
> But I guess this is now the auto-response to any EPA related topic to try and discredit them?


x10^23


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

uncleho said:


> x10^23


i don't know what this is. but i'm frightened.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> i don't know what this is. but i'm frightened.


It's an avocado. Don't worry about it.


----------



## jebglx (Jul 13, 2000)

PowerslavePA said:


> Naa, I don't, it's fun watching people get damaged over text on the internet.


you need to tone it down and stop trolling


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

PowerslavePA said:


> *VW customers demand answers and compensation over emissions scandal *
> http://www.theguardian.com/business...swers-and-compensation-over-emissions-scandal
> 
> Compensated for NOTHING right now, everyone's greedy... I suppose someone
> ...


Why do you write this way? Do you press enter at the end of each line like you typing on an old-fashioned typewriter?


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

PlatinumGLS said:


> Why do you write this way? Do you press enter at the end of each line like you typing on an old-fashioned typewriter?


Because he is cut & pasting from conservative news blogs.


----------



## Egz (May 30, 2002)

classicjetta said:


> It's an avocado. Don't worry about it.


You can't fool me. Avacado's number has a 6 in it!


----------



## Sledge (May 15, 2005)

Egz said:


> You can't fool me. Avacado's number has a 6 in it!


Avocado's number? That's the number of atoms of avocado required to make guacamole.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

BRealistic said:


> There was a really bad high speed train accident in Germany many years ago.. . May have even been the 90s.
> That story of blatant corporate incompetence and how the victims were unable to get anything out of the company responsible really showed me that German laws (then) protected corporations.
> In order to sue a company, you have to find the individual in that company responsible and sue them.
> Has that changed since then?
> ...


I think the natural finger-pointing at a phase in an event like this ignores the reality of human nature in pressure-heavy corporate environments lead by overly strong executives plus the personal ambitions of lower-level individuals and their desire to either maintain position and/or have a chance to move up. 

What I mean is that... in order to really know the root cause(s)... one has to ask oneself "Why?" more than just the one time most journalists or Joe Public does. Complex events like this aren't as superficial in root cause as so many would like to believe. German engineers are no different than anywhere else (i.e. Very few humans trained in such disciplines lack the pride to do such an unethical thing... right off the bat. It's when enormous pressures are placed on people... with great fear of having to say "No" to the boss... that things like this happen IMHO. 

Good journalism (or public pondering/curiosity) should be empathizing with the many involved to try to understand why engineers and their ilk (i.e. People who always want to spend gobs of money and time to fix the man's challenges.) would do such a negative thing. I think the lack of such critical inquiry often leads to lessons not being learned (because they're glossed over as top management find scapegoats to throw under the bus)... and eventually repeated.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

PlatinumGLS said:


> Why do you write this way? Do you press enter at the end of each line like you typing on an old-fashioned typewriter?


You've obviously never read a lyric sheet.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

classicjetta said:


> It's an avocado. Don't worry about it.


:laugh::beer:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Because he is cut & pasting from conservative news blogs.


Not even conservative bloggers - they are extremist bloggers. Normal conservatives look a lot like my family members, who still act and function like normal people, are OK with midsize SUVs from Korea, a Prius here and there, shop at Costco, etc. There are nutjobs on both the left and right for sure. Just yesterday on imgur I had somebody sending links to me from some left-wing website about how we can only fix the world by making it illegal to charge interest in excess of a banks actual costs (no profit allowed) and that the whole world is kept poor by property owners charging rent. He literally said that rent/housing is a basic human right and had a link to an article about how every person should get a free apartment from the government as a basic human right. That's from a left wing blogger site, but I know for a fact that's the extreme fringe of the liberal movement. It's best to avoid judging all people by the actions of a few extremists.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

uncleho said:


> I think the natural finger-pointing at a phase in an event like this ignores the reality of human nature in pressure-heavy corporate environments lead by overly strong executives plus the personal ambitions of lower-level individuals and their desire to either maintain position and/or have a chance to move up.
> 
> What I mean is that... in order to really know the root cause(s)... one has to ask oneself "Why?" more than just the one time most journalists or Joe Public does. Complex events like this aren't as superficial in root cause as so many would like to believe. German engineers are no different than anywhere else (i.e. Very few humans trained in such disciplines lack the pride to do such an unethical thing... right off the bat. It's when enormous pressures are placed on people... with great fear of having to say "No" to the boss... that things like this happen IMHO.
> 
> Good journalism (or public pondering/curiosity) should be empathizing with the many involved to try to understand why engineers and their ilk (i.e. People who always want to spend gobs of money and time to fix the man's challenges.) would do such a negative thing. I think the lack of such critical inquiry often leads to lessons not being learned (because they're glossed over as top management find scapegoats to throw under the bus)... and eventually repeated.


I understand what you are trying to say- seems like you are admitting that GM probably did the same thing ()..
..no seriously.
The whole "free market" thing is supposed to push businesses and employees to be more efficient and innovative.
Though management is ultimately responsible for what is done on their watch- and also to have the oversight and numbers to make changes to be more efficient and also watch quality.
*But that does not explain how 500,000 cars were sold over a span of several years with a special ecu program that bypassed emissions for street use.*
This isn't a simple part change made too late in the run to production to properly test.
Somebody made a decision that they KNEW was illegal without question.
And then it was continued as normal business for years.
So while I agree that the work environment can push people to made bad decisions.. somebody had to make this obviously illegal decision.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> Not even conservative bloggers - they are extremist bloggers.


The phrase I used to describe the sites this person was cutting and pasting from was "right-wing hate sites." I think that was about right.

I looked at a few of the sites. One had an image of our President with a noose around his neck. I think that conveys the general thinking we've been dealing with.

Moving on, I look forward to more news and analysis here in this thread as the VW scandal evolves. There's a lot of really smart people in this forum, and they've helped me understand what's likely to become of the '15 TDI Golf I adore but want fixed.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

DJMRDARK said:


> You've obviously never read a lyric sheet.


Those were lyrics?


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

McBanagon said:


> Those were lyrics?


From Chumbawumba's hard-to-find first ep, IIRC. :thumbup:


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

DJMRDARK said:


> You've obviously never read a lyric sheet.


Observe....

Title: 

TDI Butthurt

(Verse 1)
Compensated for NOTHING 
right now, everyone's greedy... 

(Verse 2)
I suppose someone needs to 
average out breaths 
per minute
and pay us $x.xx for breathing in
the NOX gasses

(Chorus)
Sure why not, people want paid before they're hurt
Can'tput a payment on disappointment
that's stupid, but what the greedy want.

'Cause I don't care. Shows how nasty one human being can be
towards another, just because. 
I don't care, keep smacking,
I am here, YOU are there. 

(Verse 3)
Doesn't bother me one bit, but it bothers YOU guys.
It's the internet, so it's all true, 
no matter what 
Wait till someone really gets a nerve pinch 
and starts the profanities.

(Verse 4)
Like I said, Crooked Government, Crooked Companies, 
they all sleep together and have bastard scandals 
as children, then
want someone else to 
clean up after them.


(Chorus)
Sure why not, people want paid before they're hurt
Can'tput a payment on disappointment
that's stupid, but what the greedy want.

'Cause I don't care. Shows how nasty one human being can be
towards another, just because. 
I don't care, keep smacking,
I am here, YOU are there. 

(Verse 5)
The bitch heading the EPA is a liar, 
nothing will change that,
and THAT is what's governing emissions laws; 
self serving thieves.

(Verse 6)
Ha, wait till some of you see 
what actually happens with 
this VW crap 

(Verse 7)
then I will laugh, 
and laugh and 
laugh...


:laugh:


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

*VW crisis: 'Fewer than 10' targeted in emissions probe*



> A criminal inquiry into the Volkswagen emissions scandal is looking at "fewer than 10" possible culprits, according to a report.
> 
> A spokesman for the prosecutors' office in Germany said "more than two, but a lot fewer than 10" staff were being targeted, the AFP news agency said.
> 
> ...


http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34547229


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

BRealistic said:


> I understand what you are trying to say- seems like you are admitting that GM probably did the same thing ()..


Absolutely it happens in GM. And BP. And Chrysler. And Toyota. And any number of other companies and organizations. Why? Because it's human nature. Because we're fallible. Put together the right stew of variables and it will happen. 
_Note: I never got to read any investigation results from the ignition debacle, but I don't think the root causes were as clear cut as the 15sec soundbite media would like to believe. _



> ..no seriously.
> The whole "free market" thing is supposed to push businesses and employees to be more efficient and innovative.


I'm not sure if that is free market belief or theory, but IMHO it ignores the weaknesses of man (i.e. Fear, selfishness, greed, shortsightedness, etc.). I believe the free market worshipers (i.e. Those that that preach it in utter denial of human weaknesses.) fail when it comes to grasping the fact that a company is not some singular sentient being that can be simply asked to "do right... be efficient... be innovative". It is obviously a grouping of varied people with varied strengths... but also weaknesses.



> Though management is ultimately responsible for what is done on their watch- and also to have the oversight and numbers to make changes to be more efficient and also watch quality.


Absolutely. And it is everybody's duty to do so IMHO... not just "management". One thing I've noticed that gets in the way of doing 'right' is when management levels get too thick. Oh brother, don't get me started on that one. :facepalm:



> *But that does not explain how 500,000 cars were sold over a span of several years with a special ecu program that bypassed emissions for street use.*


Well, if you've read my multiple speculations in this thread and a couple others... I think you will see how it COULD happen. To me this isn't about some evil, corporate entity that Ralph Nadar dreams about slaying. This is about individuals being pressured to make regrettable decisions because they fear their positions/career more than the potential for it to come to light (i.e. In high-pressure situations, man can easily make poor, short term decisions... in their hour of desperation.).



> This isn't a simple part change made too late in the run to production to properly test.


I didn't say it was a simple change. I said it was a change made late in the development process. NOT production process. You see... the product development process includes a stage where the design must be frozen in order for the next phase to start (i.e. Procuring the production process for MFG.). At some point, that is well-defined, your testing results are laid out for all to decide if it is passing muster or not. I'm suggesting it is at that point (still well before Start or Production (SOP) that the results showed NFW and that's when all of the pressures that this project already had (Ferdinand, 800k, VW#1, MFG Engineering is well on its way towards validating its end, all parts suppliers are readying themselves, marketing is going, PR people are bragging at auto shows, etc.) forced the hands of executives to make the bad call.



> Somebody made a decision that they KNEW was illegal without question.


Absolutely people KNEW. And I've noted in prior posts that certainly plenty of people knew, because the product development process is not some mysterious process done in secret nor devoid of group reviews/approval. It's a big process, because the vehicle is a very complex machine being produced (i.e. VW isn't making toothpicks here.). I'm sure the low-level bosses didn't make the call. They just push the bad news upstream... where it stopped was likely with those in enough direct fear of Winterkorn and/or Ferdinand's wrath.



> And then it was continued as normal business for years.


And that is totally comprehensible in my mind, because such a beastly decision would likely have tons of people in fear of speaking up... especially if the corporate culture was one of hierarchical fear. Ask me how I know. This type of culture is nothing new nor was it patented by Americans. Again... it is a human thing.



> So while I agree that the work environment can push people to made bad decisions.. somebody had to make this obviously illegal decision.


Well... yeah. I never said somebody didn't. The Product Development Process (be it smart phones or cars or PCs) demands decision making at multiple phases where goals are either met or not. Assuming EARLY decisions were smart enough at kickoff or conception initiation... something this tragic would not have happened (i.e. There's a difference between stretch goals and bat-****-NFW goals.). When the results showed that TDI could not meet EPA regs, that's evidently when some high-level team of executives made the regrettable decision to not stop the humongous snowball from continuing to roll towards a sordid destiny. They decided to band-aid a fix and then pushed that decision down. Now how they convinced what amounts to grunt programmers/engineers to go along is the bigger mystery to me, but even then... I can guess it speaks of how authoritarian their culture must be. And again... that ain't new. It isn't the first corporate culture to have such semblance. :beer:


*>>>I've always strongly believed that the vast majority of people want to do a good job (i.e. Have pride in their work.). It's when faced with great pressure that human weaknesses prevail. I'm not saying that engineers are alone in their desire to do right and find solutions, but those that do engineering or know engineers realize that cheating on this level is just not something in the engineer's vocabulary... unless the forces are great enough to break a person... to put the fear of God or career in their souls. And it's not that I believe executives are all greedy bastages, but I truly believe the extremely competitive market system/world/culture we find ourselves in makes "leaders" say and pressure people in ways that they themselves don't fully appreciate (i.e. They have no clue that the power of their position and their words can put the fear of God into underlings in order to show GREEN STATUS, but through what regrettable decisions?). * This is where I fear underlings will be unfairly tossed under the bus, while folks like Piech or Winterkorn will get nothing, but a bad chapter in somebody's book one day.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Sledge said:


> Avocado's number? That's the number of atoms of avocado required to make guacamole.


golf clap


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

uncleho said:


> I'm not sure if that is free market belief or theory, but IMHO it ignores the weaknesses of man (i.e. Fear, selfishness, greed, shortsightedness, etc.). I believe the free market worshipers (i.e. Those that that preach it in utter denial of human weaknesses.) fail when it comes to grasping the fact that a company is not some singular sentient being that can be simply asked to "do right... be efficient... be innovative".


Preach!! :beer:


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

uncleho said:


> Absolutely it happens in GM. And BP. And Chrysler. And Toyota. And any number of other companies and organizations. Why? Because it's human nature. Because we're fallible. Put together the right stew of variables and it will happen. _Note: I never got to read any investigation results from the ignition debacle, but I don't think the root causes were as clear cut as the 15sec soundbite media would like to believe. _
> 
> Well, if you've read my multiple speculations in this thread and a couple others... I think you will see how it COULD happen. To me this isn't about some evil, corporate entity that Ralph Nadar dreams about slaying. This is about individuals being pressured to make regrettable decisions because they fear their positions/career more than the potential for it to come to light (i.e. In high-pressure situations, man can easily make poor, short term decisions... in their hour of desperation.).
> 
> *>>>I've always strongly believed that the vast majority of people want to do a good job (i.e. Have pride in their work.). It's when faced with great pressure that human weaknesses prevail. I'm not saying that engineers are alone in their desire to do right and find solutions, but those that do engineering or know engineers realize that cheating on this level is just not something in the engineer's vocabulary... unless the forces are great enough to break a person... to put the fear of God or career in their souls. And it's not that I believe executives are all greedy bastages, but I truly believe the extremely competitive market system/world/culture we find ourselves in makes "leaders" say and pressure people in ways that they themselves don't fully appreciate (i.e. They have no clue that the power of their position and their words can put the fear of God into underlings in order to show GREEN STATUS, but through what regrettable decisions?). * This is where I fear underlings will be unfairly tossed under the bus, while folks like Piech or Winterkorn will get nothing, but a bad chapter in somebody's book one day.


I missed somehow to catch the comment about middle management layers, but at Ford, it's called the Layer of Clay - impenetrable from above or below. We have the same thing in my employer, it's the corporate layer where bonuses start to take off and once you're there, it's fight like hell to stay there and try to move up.

I still believe that this was a smaller group who planted the code and wiped their hands early enough in the PD process that it managed to get copied without notice into millions of ECUs. The base tuning of an engine is done very early on in the process. We already know that the basics of the cheat relied on a standard Bosch subroutine. After that, it's throw a stray map in there and stop worrying, green lights all around, happy happy. 

I have to go see if I have Rudolph's card in my Rolodex.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

uncleho has this bang-on in my opinion.

And this is FAR from the only situation where this sort of thing happens. FAR from it!


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> I missed somehow to catch the comment about middle management layers, but at Ford, it's called the Layer of Clay - impenetrable from above or below. We have the same thing in my employer, it's the corporate layer where bonuses start to take off and once you're there, it's fight like hell to stay there and try to move up.
> 
> I still believe that this was a smaller group who planted the code and wiped their hands early enough in the PD process that it managed to get copied without notice into millions of ECUs. The base tuning of an engine is done very early on in the process. We already know that the basics of the cheat relied on a standard Bosch subroutine. After that, it's throw a stray map in there and stop worrying, green lights all around, happy happy.
> 
> I have to go see if I have Rudolph's card in my Rolodex.


See... mine is the GOOD COP speculation (i.e. Most people meaning well and pressured into a regrettable situation.).

Your theory is the BAD COP speculation. It assumes some really overly-ambitious people and their desire for making it big... regardless of what it does to the broader organization. We have a term for them in the MFG community: ****suckers. 

Very plausible theory to me, too. :beer:

The amount (small or large) of people they decide are guilty basically decides whether it happened in the manner you suggest or what I suggest. And I can certainly imagine what you suggest to be a plausible scenario. You have to wonder about their test folks, though. I don't know, but if GM does on-road emissions testing, you'd think VW would, too. And if that is the case... they would have surely picked up on that and raised red flags immediately.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

*The man who discovered the Volkswagen emissions scandal*
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34519184

He now thinks cars produced by other brands should be investigated for the emissions-cheating "defeat device" software.




Chmeeee said:


> Doesn't care.
> 
> Posts 33 angry ranting posts.
> 
> Sure thing bud.


No no, I don't care about the insulting replies, they don't bother me, and I will
keep posting about a-typical human greed to clean up financially over someone's
lies and misfortunes. Petty little humans to put all this on VWs table, when
the EPA is no better. People sicken me with their petty law suits, and their
hands out for a HAND out. 

Call me what you want, lash out with insults and info-graphics, because,
I don't care. I will keep showing the hypocrisy of humanity. You show
your anger and malcontent with the name calling and insults; doesn't bother
me. It bothers YOU because that's all you got, digs and jives.. Good for
you.

Plus, how do you know the posts are angry? It's TEXT... I know, it is that
100% unstable personality YOU have, listening to the voice in your head as
you read it. Well, that is your voice, your mental instability that reads
the posts as angry. You have no idea what I sound like to be able to
judge the tone of my text, only the voice in your head as you read it.

VW lied, so what, you hypocrites, who allow your governments to lie 
to you, and steal from you every day, and you say and do nothing.
VW does it, and it's a free for all? Disgusting, petty little creatures.




BRealistic said:


> I don't know why people keep bringing up the river spills.
> The EPA is contracting jobs to clean up waste water and sediment from abandoned mines (cleaning up old messes left by others).
> Contractors made mistakes around very loose soil.
> It's not like the EPA intentionally commited fraud for profit.
> But I guess this is now the auto-response to any EPA related topic to try and discredit them?


First time I saw it here, and THAT also happened under the current EPA chief's watch!


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

PowerslavePA said:


> First time I saw it here, and THAT also happened under the current EPA chief's watch!


And it matters to this topic because?

The GOP has been anti-EPA for as long as I can remember- supposedly because the EPA is "anti-jobs" instead of "anti-pollution".
The same GOP politicians that were pushing to cut the EPA's budget more and more and now the same ones "demanding answers" for the river spills. The same politicians that have been trying to gut the EPA financially and now trying hold the EPA to a very high standard when things go wrong.
It's 100% political BS and let's just leave it at that. :beer:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

VW lures Daimler's compliance chief to manage diesel scandal



> FRANKFURT (Bloomberg) -- Volkswagen Group today hired a compliance chief with a reputation for toughness from rival Daimler to help stem the fallout of the diesel-emission cheating scandal shattering the automaker.
> 
> Daimler’s Christine Hohmann-Dennhardt, 65, will take over a newly created management board position for integrity and legal affairs on Jan. 1, 2016, VW said in a statement.
> 
> ...


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

^^

That's the first truly positive move VW has made in this whole mess.

Their PR department probably has a 2 drink minimum right now.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> Hahahahaha.
> 
> Part of me wants to yell "bad Volkswagen! Bad! Bad!" and part of me wants to yell "Stupid EPA! Stupid! Stupid!"
> 
> ...


EPA should have their own version of SEAL TEAM 6 and do raids on MFRs, kidnap engineers in the dark of night, etc. It would pay to see this.


----------



## NoDubJustYet (Mar 25, 2002)

uncleho said:


> EPA should have their own version of SEAL TEAM 6 and do raids on MFRs, kidnap engineers in the dark of night, etc. It would pay to see this.


EPA has 1811 series special agents... I'm sure they'd love to dust off their M-4s.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

NoDubJustYet said:


> EPA has 1811 series special agents... I'm sure they'd love to dust off their M-4s.


Standard issue EPA sidearm:


----------



## Chmeeee (Jun 24, 2002)

PowerslavePA said:


> Plus, how do you know the posts are angry? It's TEXT... I know, it is that
> 100% unstable personality YOU have, listening to the voice in your head as
> you read it.


Well the frequent CAPITALIZED words are a hint...


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

Chmeeee said:


> Well the frequent CAPITALIZED words are a hint...


The print version of "if I yell this part loud enough, nobody can speak over me and that makes me right."


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Guys, just put the idiot on ignore. If you stop feeding the troll, he'll go away.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

Mazda 3s said:


> Guys, just
> put the idiot
> on ignore.
> If you stop
> ...


FIFY


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

McBanagon said:


> FIFY


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

> And CR says it’s these better-than-sticker estimates that pushed many people to go out and buy a diesel model over their gasoline and hybrid counterparts.
> 
> *Consumer Reports also looked back at 16 diesel models they recently tested and found that only Volkswagen-branded diesel models exceeded the EPA-estimated MPG numbers. The signs have been there all along!*
> 
> Perhaps the marketing department wasn’t aware of the technological trickery at play, but it was a clear motivator behind the initial decision to fit millions of diesel models with a cheating device. And it worked, as Volkswagen was the most popular brand for diesel models in the United States and elsewhere, having almost a 75 percent share in the diesel market.


http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-bragged-about-the-effects-of-diesel-cheating-1737040865


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Mazda 3s said:


> http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-bragged-about-the-effects-of-diesel-cheating-1737040865


My vwvortex poster BFF heard from jaloponick who knows this consumer reporter that saw Volkswagen pass out at 31 flavours last night, so I guess it's pretty serious.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Silly_me said:


> My vwvortex poster BFF heard from jaloponick who knows this consumer reporter that saw Volkswagen pass out at 31 flavours last night, so I guess it's pretty serious.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

*How Volkswagen Plans To Bounce Back*
http://jalopnik.com/how-volkswagen-plans-to-bounce-back-1736917507



DJMRDARK said:


> Observe....
> 
> Title:
> 
> ...


TDI Butthurt (C)2015, PowerslavePA, username (alias) all rights reserved, 
do not reprint without express written consent of the author. 

Thus I officially copyright my text, and thanks for the piece
together to show the Butthurt TDI owners of the world. Great
song, and yeah, it fits, it really does. Not everyone, but just
the ones bellyaching about it, boo hoo, and what not... VW
lied, oh, the horror of it all. Yeah, and I bet none of you lie
to your Kids, Parents, or anyone else for that matter; lie is
a lie, monetizing it doesn't make it any less a, sin, heh heh...

That copyright is binding under United Stated intellectual properly
rights, and the DMCA. Not a patent, a COPYRIGHT (Oh, was that angry of me?)
Don't think it's a joke, I made TDI club remove all my posts under the same
rules. 



BRealistic said:


> And it matters to this topic because?
> 
> The GOP has been anti-EPA for as long as I can remember- supposedly because the EPA is "anti-jobs" instead of "anti-pollution".
> The same GOP politicians that were pushing to cut the EPA's budget more and more and now the same ones "demanding answers" for the river spills. The same politicians that have been trying to gut the EPA financially and now trying hold the EPA to a very high standard when things go wrong.
> It's 100% political BS and let's just leave it at that. :beer:


I did not post it, someone else did, just saying same corrupt chief...



Chmeeee said:


> Well the frequent CAPITALIZED words are a hint...


REALLY? Huh, so what do "YOU" do for emphasis? Capitalized words mean anger?
To "YOU" or the entire planet? Oh bullocks, all caps words mean anger, that's stupid
as, wait for it, wait for it: HELL (all caps). So, it's all caps now that shows anger?
Any tickets for that show? I'd love to see it.

I wonder, what format of wording means someone just blew their stack and is heading to
the tower with a sniper rifle. You're the psychologist now, so, what formatting would that be?
Italics? Crooked text, so they must be out of their mind, watch out. But, in the end
you did say a hint, not fact, so...

_See ya later dude!_ - Uh Oh, that was italics, look out!


----------



## im no hero x (Feb 26, 2007)

.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

uncleho said:


> EPA should have their own version of SEAL TEAM 6 and do raids on MFRs, kidnap engineers in the dark of night, etc. *I* would pay to see this.


You and me both!! I would add in NHTSA and FDOT teams, just for the sequels. :thumbup::thumbup:

I agree with you - there are a bunch of ways this could have played out. I'm relying on my personal knowledge of German industry, and you've got the hardcore OEM background. Either way (or a third), this is not something that is new to the industry, sadly. 

What is kind of cracking me up is that I have been largely right about my calls on this so far. We'll see if my streak continues. My money is on IGMetall throwing the mother of all hissy fits in about two months (holiday time), which will so disrupt life that everyone will forget about the engineers/Dieselgate in general just to keep production running.


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

Really dumb hypothetical question that's probably been answered, but I hadn't seen it yet. 

I have a 2014 Jetta TDI. After VW announces whatever fix they're going to do, I decide not to have it done. When I'm due for an emissions renewal, I go to a nearby testing facility. When they test my car, won't the cheating software go into action, thereby allowing me to pass? Or is there another way the average testing facility will be able to know if the car has had the recall service done?


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Skizzle1111 said:


> Really dumb hypothetical question that's probably been answered, but I hadn't seen it yet.
> 
> I have a 2014 Jetta TDI. After VW announces whatever fix they're going to do, I decide not to have it done. When I'm due for an emissions renewal, I go to a nearby testing facility. When they test my car, won't the cheating software go into action, thereby allowing me to pass? Or is there another way the average testing facility will be able to know if the car has had the recall service done?


Remains to be seen at the moment... No one knows exactly what will happen. General thought is the EPA can't force you to get the recall done (this might actually have been confirmed?). But. some states might depending on their processes and procedures. Cali will probably force people to get it done.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

E CODE said:


> Remains to be seen at the moment... No one knows exactly what will happen. General thought is the EPA can't force you to get the recall done (this might actually have been confirmed?). But. some states might depending on their processes and procedures. Cali will probably force people to get it done.


It wouldn't be difficult.. just don't allow tag renewal unless proof of emissions compliance recall has been done.
Considering the press this has gotten... I wouldn't be surprised if every state forces the compliance recall.


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

BRealistic said:


> It wouldn't be difficult.. just don't allow tag renewal unless proof of emissions compliance recall has been done.
> Considering the press this has gotten... I wouldn't be surprised if every state forces the compliance recall.


Makes sense.


----------



## gonzo08452 (Apr 17, 2006)

BRealistic said:


> It wouldn't be difficult.. just don't allow tag renewal unless proof of emissions compliance recall has been done.
> Considering the press this has gotten... I wouldn't be surprised if every state forces the compliance recall.


But do manufacturers have to the recall if you take you're car in for routine maintenance? I know Hyundai and Nissan dealers cannot submit any warranty claims for a vin if there are outstanding open recalls for that vin#.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> You and me both!! I would add in NHTSA and FDOT teams, just for the sequels. :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> I agree with you - there are a bunch of ways this could have played out. I'm relying on my personal knowledge of German industry, and you've got the hardcore OEM background. Either way (or a third), this is not something that is new to the industry, sadly.
> 
> What is kind of cracking me up is that I have been largely right about my calls on this so far. We'll see if my streak continues. My money is on IGMetall throwing the mother of all hissy fits in about two months (holiday time), which will so disrupt life that everyone will forget about the engineers/Dieselgate in general just to keep production running.


Was that union already haggling for changes or are you saying Dieselgate is pushing them to make some demands? 

Daaaaang, dis gonna be good! It's like a soap opera. Hey! Is this movie material, yet?!! Who is going to play Winterkorn? Who is the hero in all of this? And more importantly... how will they liven up the screenplay when German engineers are so damn... unexcitable? I guess that's where the Americans (UWV and EPA) come in, right??? It'll have undertones of WWII! :laugh:

I got it!!! The powertrain engineer at the root of it all had a grandfather that was trying to help the Allies during WWII by being a spy in the NAZI military industrial complex was forgotten and left to suffer in Siberia when the Russians took East Germany. The grandson decided to take vengeance on the Americans by polluting our environment with NOx in this mad scheme. Maybe Nicolas Cage can play a test engineer from University of West Virginia?


----------



## dos (Jul 5, 2009)

Looks like the FTC maybe going after VW for those "clean diesel" advertisements.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...vestigating-vw-for-calling-its-diesels-clean/



> The FTC Is Investigating VW For Calling its Diesels "Clean"
> The U.S. Federal Trade Commission has a bone to pick with Volkswagen's "clean diesel" advertising for emissions-cheating cars.
> 
> ​Remember all those cheeky, confident-sounding advertisements VW used to promote its TDI "clean diesel" offerings? Well, now that we all know the truth about those diesel cars, those advertising claims don't quite stand up to scrutiny. And the U.S. Federal Trade Commission would like to have a word.
> ...


They are really getting hammered from every angle.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

dos said:


> Looks like the FTC maybe going after VW for those "clean diesel" advertisements.
> http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...vestigating-vw-for-calling-its-diesels-clean/
> 
> 
> They are really getting hammered from every angle.


There's no way Dicaprio's story line can beat mine! SOB!!!!


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

BRealistic said:


> Considering the press this has gotten... I wouldn't be surprised if every state forces the compliance recall.


I think you underestimate the sheer laziness and incompetence of state governments. I would still say there's a *very* good chance that fewer than half of all TDIs in the USA will ever get the fix due to the overwhelming majority of states failing to develop a way to enforce suspension of renewals for non-compliance.


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

AZGolf said:


> I think you underestimate the sheer laziness and incompetence of state governments. I would still say there's a *very* good chance that fewer than half of all TDIs in the USA will ever get the fix due to the overwhelming majority of states failing to develop a way to enforce suspension of renewals for non-compliance.


Unless they can find a way to make money off it somehow. :laugh:


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

I will make this call: the amount of time, resources, cash, and internal VW personnel involved to investigate, defend, probe and fix this mess will affect VWs ability for new product launches for the next 5-10 years.

I think there is going to be a bunch of very senior engineers who will get canned, as well as leadership. VW is going to have to rehire, but that will be difficult because who wants to join a company that will have a tarnished image?


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

dos said:


> Looks like the FTC maybe going after VW for those "clean diesel" advertisements.
> http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...vestigating-vw-for-calling-its-diesels-clean/
> 
> 
> They are really getting hammered from every angle.


They really are getting air-tighted on this.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> to the overwhelming majority of states failing to develop a way to enforce suspension of renewals for non-compliance.


They'd have to pass a law, in the middle of election season, to tie emissions to registration in states that do not have such a law on the books. Here in KY our last emissions testing (three counties only were left) were ended with an emergency regulation approved by the EPA in 2005 :laugh: And since the EPA's head was already on a spike in the election ads pre-dieselgate, it ain't going to happen round these here parts :laugh:


----------



## spathotan (Jun 14, 2013)

Went to my dealership this morning just to have a chat with my salesman about the $3000 incentives, my ongoing and unresolved issue with my Jetta (engine/crank speed sensor or throttle valve, dealer wont replace under warranty until I get a CEL) and of course this diesal issue. 

Mostly stuff we already know, like theyve moved all the new TDIs to the back lot, but are still allowed to sell used models. The dealership lot in general is barren, all theyve got an abundance of is GTIs. They are selling Jettas, Tiguans and Passats faster than they can get them in thanks to the cash and APR incentives on those models. Hes been with this dealer for ~10 years and he said they are selling new cars faster than hes ever seen, but they are also getting in more dumbasses than ever before....people that dont pay attention and dont understand the $2000 is for current VW owners.:laugh: 

I asked him if theyve been given any info about the TDIs that the media dosent already know. He did say buybacks are totally out of the question and he also dosent believe they are going to force fixes on current owners. Theyve had a billion inquiries about that through the service dept and he said more than likely the customer will have to opt in for the fix regardless if its parts or software. They cant do just stuff to your car without your authority......unless, like already mentioned here, states/EPA try to tie it to vehicle registration/inspections.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

randy said:


> VW is going to have to rehire, but that will be difficult because who wants to join a company that will have a tarnished image?


Image is tarnished, but I doubt they'll have that big of a problem hiring these days. I dare say in general... good-paying technical work (supply) is smaller than available resources (demand). In a country that has the kind of technical prowess Germany has, I would think hiring issues will be a mere speed bump in the journey to rebuild. GM was in the same boat just recently. 

A lot of house cleaning is done and after ~4-5 years (which isn't much) and the next thing you know... the banter dies down and memories fade. Things improve and people need to feed families. How long the speed bump is depends on how deep in doodoo they get themselves, right? Kind of hard to get any lower than bankruptcy and I doubt it will come to that. As several have already noted VW is essentially too big to fail (i.e. National employment). After all it wasn't as if everybody in the company was complicit.


----------



## InfernoBourne (Oct 9, 2015)

So...

What if this recall does ruin the milage, torque/etc performance stuff...

What does that mean for all the consumers that were basically screwed? We all bought the vehicles under false information... we now get a vehicle that is not holding up to what we paid for?

If someone knows a bit more -legal wise- as to how the consumer is going to be either compensated or screwed, please let me know.


Edit: I see the post two above mine... so if anyone has any more insight...


----------



## MeineFolks'wagen (May 8, 2002)

InfernoBourne said:


> So...
> 
> What if this recall does ruin the milage, torque/etc performance stuff...
> 
> ...


I'm still buddies with the techs I used to work with at VW and they've said they have yet to get any direction from VW for the fix. I still get emailed their bulletins (I guess nobody told them I don't work there anymore) and none of the bulletins have addressed it yet. 

As for what a customer can do - trade the car in, tell them you don't want the recall done (they can't do it unless you authorize it as is said above) so that it isn't an issue, and I'm sure there will be one or more class action lawsuits filed as a result that you could get in on. 

But really, as far as a customer goes and this is purely in my opinion, I sort of have a hard time using terminology like "under false pretenses". The car performs the way it was supposed to when someone bought it and I don't think I've come across anyone who gets mileage worse than anticipated. I don't know anyone who has bought a diesel in the past because it was a "clean" car, it was because of the mileage they get. For all of these people to suddenly become overnight environmentalists because of this is sort of misplaced in my opinion. If you were that concerned about the environment, you should have bought a different car


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

So when would be a good time to start buying VW of America stock?


----------



## joesturbo (Jul 19, 1999)

MeineFolks'wagen said:


> For all of these people to suddenly become overnight environmentalists because of this is sort of misplaced in my opinion. If you were that concerned about the environment, you should have bought a different car


These same people you mention they not only are idiots they don't even know what they are talking about. Wait until the hippies get the bill for their next loaf of bread... THE EVIL EPA has mandated trucks to get 43% better efficiency in several years. The only way this can happen is using exotic materials and essentially increasing cost of the truck to $500K each. So that loaf of bread, gallon of milk etc. is going to cost you $12-15 easy... you don't think that is fair well pucker up butter-cup that is what YOUR Big Evil EPA is doing to us. Legislation and slavery of the middle class... The ELITE LOVE THIS.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

MeineFolks'wagen said:


> I don't know anyone who has bought a diesel in the past because it was a "clean" car, it was because of the mileage they get. For all of these people to suddenly become *overnight environmentalists* because of this is sort of misplaced in my opinion. If you were that concerned about the environment, you should have bought a different car


This all x eleventy billion!!

Bandwagon environmentalists, etc. Give me a headache...... :banghead:


----------



## mhjett (Oct 16, 2000)

vbora01 said:


> So when would be a good time to start buying VW of America stock?


You can't.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

joesturbo said:


> These same people you mention they not only are idiots they don't even know what they are talking about. Wait until the hippies get the bill for their next loaf of bread... THE EVIL EPA has mandated trucks to get 43% better efficiency in several years. The only way this can happen is using exotic materials and essentially increasing cost of the truck to $500K each. So that loaf of bread, gallon of milk etc. is going to cost you $12-15 easy... you don't think that is fair well pucker up butter-cup that is what YOUR Big Evil EPA is doing to us. Legislation and slavery of the middle class... The ELITE LOVE THIS.


If that's true, why do a bunch of logistics companies support the standards? 



> Trucking industry leaders offer guidance on new fuel efficiency standards Source: U.S. Department of Transportation Feb 18, 2014
> 
> Some of the biggest names in trucking welcomed President Obama’s announcement of firm deadlines for the next generation of national fuel efficiency and greenhouse gas emission standards for heavy duty vehicles, including 18-wheelers, sanitation trucks, buses and other commercial vehicles. To mark the occasion, an informal alliance of the country’s largest truck fleets, top engine manufacturers, and leading technology suppliers released a statement of principles they hope will inform and guide regulators as they develop national fuel-saving rules.
> 
> ...


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

classicjetta said:


> If that's true, why do a bunch of logistics companies support the standards?


They're the ones who use the trucks, so better fuel efficiency reduces their fuel cost and thus serves their interests.

They're not the ones who have to figure out how to comply with this.

Engine thermal efficiency? Diesel engines in that size range are already mid-forties percent thermal efficiency. They have been in that efficiency range for decades and there is no reason to suspect that the laws governing the operation of these engines are going to change overnight. The large efficiency improvements were found decades ago. We are down to splitting hairs to further improve it.

Hybridization/electrification? There are cases where this could help - notably, urban transit and delivery - and such powertrains are already available and in use. But highway ... it doesn't help. And large heavy-duty hybrid powertrains are super expensive. Hybrid transit buses cost hundreds of thousands more than standard models. In a tractor-trailer, where are you going to put the (large) battery pack? In the trailer??

Aerodynamics? There is something to be gained here. How much can you change the shape of an industry-standard 53 foot box trailer without impairing its function (a big square box is the most space-efficient shape)? Are you going to have to dedicate your fancy new aero trailer to the specific tractor that hauls it?

Weight reduction? Take a look at an existing box trailer - particularly after one has been in a wreck. There is not much to them. Most of the weight is the cargo, and reducing the weight of that kinda defeats the purpose ...


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

randy said:


> I think there is going to be a bunch of very senior engineers who will get canned, as well as leadership. VW is going to have to rehire, but that will be difficult because who wants to join a company that will have a tarnished image?


They just hired Daimler's complience cheif.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20151016/COPY01/310169953?template=mobile&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

"Quote Originally Posted by MeineFolks'wagen View Post
For all of these people to suddenly become overnight environmentalists because of this is sort of misplaced in my opinion. If you were that concerned about the environment, you should have bought a different car"

I Couldn't agree anymore with this statement. Most of these lawsuits are from fairweather VW fans to begin with. They just heard some lawyers doing typical lawyer things so they all of sudden are offended, because this is the year to be offended by everything. If they really cared about the earth and the environment they would've just bought a prius...and thought the electricity came from the happy clouds.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

MeineFolks'wagen said:


> I'm still buddies with the techs I used to work with at VW and they've said they have yet to get any direction from VW for the fix. I still get emailed their bulletins (I guess nobody told them I don't work there anymore) and none of the bulletins have addressed it yet.
> 
> As for what a customer can do - trade the car in, tell them you don't want the recall done (they can't do it unless you authorize it as is said above) so that it isn't an issue, and I'm sure there will be one or more class action lawsuits filed as a result that you could get in on.
> 
> But really, as far as a customer goes and this is purely in my opinion, I sort of have a hard time using terminology like "under false pretenses". The car performs the way it was supposed to when someone bought it and I don't think I've come across anyone who gets mileage worse than anticipated. I don't know anyone who has bought a diesel in the past because it was a "clean" car, it was because of the mileage they get. For all of these people to suddenly become overnight environmentalists because of this is sort of misplaced in my opinion. If you were that concerned about the environment, you should have bought a different car


The "false pretense" is that we assumed the car met whatever legal requirements it was supposed to meet at the time of sale. It has now been discovered (and admitted to by VW) that the cars did NOT meet those requirements, and in fact they were designed to illegally _skirt _the requirements. "Why" we purchased the car is really irrelevant; the fact is that the car we bought was not what we thought we were buying.

That said, I can assure you that our decision to buy a TDI was based on it being a good compromise between performance, economy, price, _and _environmental impact. No, "clean diesel" wasn't the only consideration, but it was certainly _a _consideration.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Hajduk said:


> They just hired Daimler's complience cheif.
> 
> http://www.autonews.com/article/20151016/COPY01/310169953?template=mobile&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1


Old news. Thread moves fast. They did that yesterday: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...0-vehicles&p=88940730&viewfull=1#post88940730


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

joesturbo said:


> These same people you mention they not only are idiots they don't even know what they are talking about. Wait until the hippies get the bill for their next loaf of bread... THE EVIL EPA has mandated trucks to get 43% better efficiency in several years. The only way this can happen is using exotic materials and essentially increasing cost of the truck to $500K each. So that loaf of bread, gallon of milk etc. is going to cost you $12-15 easy... you don't think that is fair well pucker up butter-cup that is what YOUR Big Evil EPA is doing to us. Legislation and slavery of the middle class... The ELITE LOVE THIS.


:laugh: On a troll scale of 1-10 you just turned it up to 11 with that one. Too hard, junior, too hard.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

I have received 4 pieces of mail from Law firms asking if I want to join their class action suit.


----------



## joesturbo (Jul 19, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> :laugh: On a troll scale of 1-10 you just turned it up to 11 with that one. Too hard, junior, too hard.


Just place an L on your head - I am no junior to you and... If you don't understand your government at work against you there is nothing I can say.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

joesturbo said:


> Just place an L on your head - I am no junior to you and... If you don't understand your government at work against you there is nothing I can say.


The federal government has made me a substantial amount of money. My family too. The government definitely works FOR me :thumbup:

A+ trolling BTW :laugh:


----------



## limastock (Feb 17, 2009)

joesturbo said:


> These same people you mention they not only are idiots they don't even know what they are talking about. Wait until the hippies get the bill for their next loaf of bread... THE EVIL EPA has mandated trucks to get 43% better efficiency in several years. The only way this can happen is using exotic materials and essentially increasing cost of the truck to $500K each. So that loaf of bread, gallon of milk etc. is going to cost you $12-15 easy... you don't think that is fair well pucker up butter-cup that is what YOUR Big Evil EPA is doing to us. Legislation and slavery of the middle class... The ELITE LOVE THIS.


Post definitely made me LOL


----------



## surefooted (May 21, 2001)

joesturbo said:


> These same people you mention they not only are idiots they don't even know what they are talking about. Wait until the hippies get the bill for their next loaf of bread... THE EVIL EPA has mandated trucks to get 43% better efficiency in several years. The only way this can happen is using exotic materials and essentially increasing cost of the truck to $500K each. So that loaf of bread, gallon of milk etc. is going to cost you $12-15 easy... you don't think that is fair well pucker up butter-cup that is what YOUR Big Evil EPA is doing to us. Legislation and slavery of the middle class... The ELITE LOVE THIS.





joesturbo said:


> Just place an L on your head - I am no junior to you and... If you don't understand your government at work against you there is nothing I can say.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

joesturbo said:


> there is nothing I can say.


Let's go with this. :thumbup:

Seriously, this thread has brought them all out. :what:


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

InfernoBourne said:


> So...
> 
> *What if this recall does ruin the milage, torque/etc performance stuff...*
> 
> ...


It is not what if, it will, it has already been proven, up to 15HP and 30 ft-lbs of torque,
low end. It evens out in the higher RPM ranges. So, highway driving will see the least
losses -vs- lots of stop-n-go city driving.

Mazda and others have had to compensate for their ratings that were false, before
or after the fact.

Still, once done, you can use the compensation to have Malone tuning, or whoever else,
put you back to where you were, and maybe better. 

I strongly doubt they would be fair, because I put 2000 miles a week on my TDI, so
if they base the compensation on average mileage? Mine is 495 a day, 4-days a week.
That check, based on what? Life of the loan or what they see how long the vehicle
would last? I got 5-years left on mine, I got it relatively new, so, that would get
me a nice pay day? No way are they going to make the difference up on the
kind of mileage I put on it. 

Then again, some people can be both compensated, AND screwed, because the compensation will
never be enough, especially for the envronMENTALists, and the simple greedy, and the people who
think they are entitled, just because they were lied to....and what not...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

VW made several defeat devices to cheat emissions tests, report says



> (Reuters) -- Volkswagen made several versions of its "defeat device" software to rig diesel emissions tests, three people familiar with the matter told Reuters, potentially suggesting a complex deception by the automaker.
> 
> During seven years of self-confessed cheating, Volkswagen altered its illegal software for four engine types, said the sources, who include a VW manager with knowledge of the matter and a U.S. official close to an investigation into the company.
> 
> ...


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

From 2/2009 - funny to look back and see them bragging about the TDI performance - 



> "Having the Jetta TDI clean diesel awarded MotorWeek's 'Best of the Year' 2009 Drivers Choice Award is a tremendous honor for the Volkswagen brand," said Mark Barnes, COO, Volkswagen of America. "This award is testimony that drivers agree the 2009 Jetta TDI clean diesel provides an environmentally responsible choice, and a spirited and passionate driving experience."
> 
> The Jetta TDI clean diesel was recognized by MotorWeek as the best overall winner among their 13 categories, the *Jetta TDI was the first 50-state compliant clean diesel car available in the U.S., and the first diesel ever to win a "Best of the Year" Drivers' Choice Award. Jetta TDI also took top honors as "Best Eco-Friendly" vehicle.*
> 
> ...


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

dmorrow said:


> From 2/2009 - funny to look back and see them bragging about the TDI performance -


Yeah I saw they returned a bunch of awards including Wards 10 best engines, Cars.com, and others. They can get a participant trophy and be mocked by Kia.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

Every day I check this thread thinking it cannot possibly get worse....and every day I am proven wrong.

I am beginning to think this might be putting VW as a whole at risk. If they find this scope getting any bigger than it already is, VW may have a hard time continuing on as is.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Maximum_Download said:


> Every day I check this thread thinking it cannot possibly get worse....and every day I am proven wrong.
> 
> I am beginning to think this might be putting VW as a whole at risk. If they find this scope getting any bigger than it already is, VW may have a hard time continuing on as is.


I know!

But I did predict that Brussels will own VW eventually, so if nothing else, we get closer to my prediction every day! :facepalm:


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> I think you underestimate the sheer laziness and incompetence of state governments. I would still say there's a *very* good chance that fewer than half of all TDIs in the USA will ever get the fix due to the overwhelming majority of states failing to develop a way to enforce suspension of renewals for non-compliance.


I think the percentage will be much higher because people still want to get warranty work done and a large portion of these cars are under warranty, many don't understand any of this or won't see enough of a negative to not want to do it and will take their car to the dealership for some other reason and it will get done automatically. 

Then I think the big one will be some type of compensation from VW that people won't be able to pass up. Offer the average VW owner $500 as part of a settlement that requires him to get the update and they won't be able to resist - "I sure could use the $500 that VW will send me if I get the update". I would expect any settlement to require the recall.

Then add in the states that will care and check.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

joesturbo said:


> TTHE EVIL EPA has mandated trucks to get 43% better efficiency in several years. The only way this can happen is using exotic materials and essentially increasing cost of the truck to $500K each.


which chapter of the rectal database did you pull that $500k number from?

theres very little in the way of exotic materials in something like this, and it blows the coming greenhouse gas targets out of the water.
http://www.freightlinersupertruck.com/


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

AZGolf said:


> I would still say there's a *very* good chance that fewer than half of all TDIs in the USA will ever get the fix due to the overwhelming majority of states failing to develop a way to enforce suspension of renewals for non-compliance.


And I have no problem with this. I'd be very, very surprised if Mrs. Haley did anything about it here in South Carolina, and I don't care if she doesn't.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> which chapter of the rectal database did you pull that $500k number from?
> 
> theres very little in the way of exotic materials in something like this, and it blows the coming greenhouse gas targets out of the water.
> http://www.freightlinersupertruck.com/


LOL. Thanks for pointing this out. I had to look it up. The most expensive new 2016 truck at the local Freightliner dealer is $135,900. Hard to imagine that the prices will triple as joeturbo is claiming, isn't it?


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

spockcat said:


> LOL. Thanks for pointing this out. I had to look it up. The most expensive new 2016 truck at the local Freightliner dealer is $135,900. Hard to imagine that the prices will triple as joeturbo is claiming, isn't it?


Not if they start making them out of gold!


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

spockcat said:


> LOL. Thanks for pointing this out. I had to look it up. The most expensive new 2016 truck at the local Freightliner dealer is $135,900. Hard to imagine that the prices will triple as joeturbo is claiming, isn't it?


to be fair, theres no question that you could option out some sort of custom truck out to over $200,000 but thats not something thatd be hauling your milk to the grocery store anyway. nor will the price double/triple just because they need to get a bit better fuel economy over the next 5-10 years.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

*French authorities search Volkswagen office in emissions scandal*
http://www.mashable.com/2015/10/18/volkswagen-emissions-scandal/




classicjetta said:


> Yeah I saw they returned a bunch of awards including Wards 10 best engines, Cars.com, and others. They can get a participant trophy and be mocked by Kia.


Isn't it great that an automaker can have rewards revoked, but cheaters in football
games get to retain their titles...



Maximum_Download said:


> Every day I check this thread thinking it cannot possibly get worse....and every day I am proven wrong.
> 
> I am beginning to think this might be putting VW as a whole at risk. If they find this scope getting any bigger than it already is, VW may have a hard time continuing on as is.


VW won't go belly up or anything. Government likes to throw our money around,
so at worst they get a bail-out like the other ones did. They are in a spiral, for
sure, and may be targets for a take-over, but I don't see that happening either. 
Can't argue any point with a bail out, all their issues were self inflicted, but they
still got loans and monies. Though, if you or I had trouble, we have to go
out of business, or file bankruptcy...

Still, it's said that new VW car registrations rose 8.4% in EU this September, despite
the emissions scandal; no immediate impact on sales. Waiting for October stats, and
long run impact.






dmorrow said:


> I think the percentage will be much higher because people still want to get warranty work done and a large portion of these cars are under warranty, many don't understand any of this or won't see enough of a negative to not want to do it and will take their car to the dealership for some other reason and it will get done automatically.
> 
> Then I think the big one will be some type of compensation from VW that people won't be able to pass up. Offer the average VW owner $500 as part of a settlement that requires him to get the update and they won't be able to resist - "I sure could use the $500 that VW will send me if I get the update". I would expect any settlement to require the recall.
> 
> Then add in the states that will care and check.


$500.00 won't be enough for me, due to the miles I rack up daily. $1500,
sure, then I would just spend $500 of that to get it tuned afterwards.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

MeineFolks'wagen said:


> I don't know anyone who has bought a diesel in the past because it was a "clean" car, it was because of the mileage they get. For all of these people to suddenly become overnight environmentalists because of this is sort of misplaced in my opinion. If you were that concerned about the environment, you should have bought a different car


I'm looking to buy a used TDI simply for the gas mileage. Being "green" or the emissions it produces is very low on my list of concerns. The big advantage, for me, is the longevity of the diesel engine compared to power systems like gas-only or hybrid. Yes, the diesel engine gets good gas mileage but the engine itself is a very robust design capable of going a lot of miles without problems. The same cannot be said about the typical gasoline or hybrid engine systems.


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

Uberhare said:


> I'm looking to buy a used TDI simply for the gas mileage. Being "green" or the emissions it produces is very low on my list of concerns. The big advantage, for me, is the longevity of the diesel engine compared to power systems like gas-only or hybrid. Yes, the diesel engine gets good gas mileage but the engine itself is a very robust design capable of going a lot of miles without problems. The same cannot be said about the typical gasoline or hybrid engine systems.


I'm not sure I buy this. I don't think the TDI's are bad by any stretch, and maybe they are above average, but I'm thinking that this reputation has developed in large part because TDI owners tend to be techy-types who have the interest and the resources to meticulously maintain their vehicles. I'm skeptical they are lasting longer, on average, for less cost, than say, a Prius power unit. Plenty of other gas engines will do 250k no problem, at which point you do a $1500 valve job and they'd probably do it again. Outside of the relatively rare modern engines that truly have design issues, I think longevity is a question of maintenance and the willingness to keep an older car up more than anything else.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

zhenya00 said:


> I'm not sure I buy this. I don't think the TDI's are bad by any stretch, and maybe they are above average, but I'm thinking that this reputation has developed in large part because TDI owners tend to be techy-types who have the interest and the resources to meticulously maintain their vehicles. I'm skeptical they are lasting longer, on average, for less cost, than say, a Prius power unit. Plenty of other gas engines will do 250k no problem, at which point you do a $1500 valve job and they'd probably do it again. Outside of the relatively rare modern engines that truly have design issues, I think longevity is a question of maintenance and the willingness to keep an older car up more than anything else.


Diesel engines are designed differently than other ICE's. They typically have much stronger blocks, cranks, connecting rods, bearings, etc to handle the stress. It's the main reason why diesel engines are utilized in applications requiring relatively low maintenance for the amount of runtime hours. Trains, mining equipment, marine, etc all rely on diesel engines for this reason.....it's been a proven long-lasting powerplant compared to other fuel sources.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

zhenya00 said:


> I'm not sure I buy this. I don't think the TDI's are bad by any stretch, and maybe they are above average, but I'm thinking that this reputation has developed in large part because TDI owners tend to be techy-types who have the interest and the resources to meticulously maintain their vehicles. I'm skeptical they are lasting longer, on average, for less cost, than say, a Prius power unit. Plenty of other gas engines will do 250k no problem, at which point you do a $1500 valve job and they'd probably do it again. Outside of the relatively rare modern engines that truly have design issues, I think longevity is a question of maintenance and the willingness to keep an older car up more than anything else.


Oh, you've not met my husband. He would leave things go for months over if I did not remind him that his car was due for service. One of the reasons we started down the TDI path is that they are as a rule less finicky about maintenance intervals. A gas car would be in trouble if you left the maintenance to, the TDI takes some of it in stride. And if you stay on them to any degree, they hold up very nicely compared to a gas engine with the same level of maintenance. My 1.8t (yeah, yeah) is a needy brat compared to the TDI. The only reason it's lasted as long as it has is that I pretty much sit on the engine. 

I'm quite happy with the robustness of the TDIs we've owned. :thumbup:


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

True. Historically (I'm old), diesel had more forged parts than a gasser for strength, which was a factor in the increased cost for a diesel.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

atomicalex said:


> I'm quite happy with the robustness of the TDIs we've owned. :thumbup:


Same here!

My Rabbit pickup was almost 100 psi below spec on three out of four cylinders the night I bought it and yet it still took me from middle-of-nowhere Maine all the way home in MA without a single hiccup. I've also had nothing but positive experiences with the ALH in my last car and the CR in my current MKVI.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

Nope, can't possibly get any worse.

Oh, wait...

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/19/vw-developed-4-separate-defeat-devices-over-7-years/



> Today brings more bad news for Volkswagen as three anonymous insiders, speaking to Reuters, are claiming that the company modified its emissions defeat device to work on at least four engines over the seven years the company has admitted to cheating. If true, the incremental updates to the software cheat could be evidence of a larger group of employees making an ongoing effort to continue their deception without regulators' knowledge.
> 
> So far, VW's emissions scandal has embroiled some 11 million vehicles using the EA189 and EA288 diesel engines. "VW would have had to reconfigure the software for each generation of engines," an unnamed official close to the US investigation said to Reuters.
> 
> ...


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Uberhare said:


> Diesel engines are designed differently than other ICE's. They typically have much stronger blocks, cranks, connecting rods, bearings, etc to handle the stress. It's the main reason why diesel engines are utilized in applications requiring relatively low maintenance for the amount of runtime hours. Trains, mining equipment, marine, etc all rely on diesel engines for this reason.....it's been a proven long-lasting powerplant compared to other fuel sources.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

just another reason to own a TDI.


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

Uberhare said:


> Diesel engines are designed differently than other ICE's. They typically have much stronger blocks, cranks, connecting rods, bearings, etc to handle the stress. It's the main reason why diesel engines are utilized in applications requiring relatively low maintenance for the amount of runtime hours. Trains, mining equipment, marine, etc all rely on diesel engines for this reason.....it's been a proven long-lasting powerplant compared to other fuel sources.


I'm well aware of the differences, just not sure I believe they really amount to anything in a passenger car application where modern gas engines are also extremely reliable. Either will require maintenance to make it over the long haul. Most gas cars are scrapped not because the problems are truly terminal, but because people won't spend the money that older cars require to keep up. My suspicion is that TDI's attract, in general, a different breed of owner who is willing to do the upkeep, and hence, the engines tend to last a long time because they get their routine maintenance done. Surprise surprise. The same thing happens in the Mercedes and Volvo owners groups, diesels or not.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

zhenya00 said:


> I'm well aware of the differences, just not sure I believe they really amount to anything in a passenger car application where modern gas engines are also extremely reliable. Either will require maintenance to make it over the long haul. Most gas cars are scrapped not because the problems are truly terminal, but because people won't spend the money that older cars require to keep up. My suspicion is that TDI's attract, in general, a different breed of owner who is willing to do the upkeep, and hence, the engines tend to last a long time because they get their routine maintenance done. Surprise surprise. The same thing happens in the* Mercedes* and Volvo owners groups, diesels or not.


nope....from an oil change I did this weekend:


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

zhenya00 said:


> My suspicion is that TDI's attract, in general, a different breed of owner who is willing to do the upkeep, and hence, the engines tend to last a long time because they get their routine maintenance done. Surprise surprise. The same thing happens in the Mercedes and Volvo owners groups, diesels or not.


Not at the ownership levels they attracted for the last three years. People who barely know what Diesel fuel is have been buying them. Closest comparison is the MkIV days, when everyone and their brother went out and bought a VW because cool ads. All hell broke loose because everybody and their brother did not have the patience to care for and feed a neVaR lOse. TDIs just plugged away, and the ALH is considered among Diesel fans to be one of the best passenger Diesel engines ever. The MkV/VI TDIs are the MkIVs of their day.


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

atomicalex said:


> Not at the ownership levels they attracted for the last three years. People who barely know what Diesel fuel is have been buying them. Closest comparison is the MkIV days, when everyone and their brother went out and bought a VW because cool ads. All hell broke loose because everybody and their brother did not have the patience to care for and feed a neVaR lOse. TDIs just plugged away, and the ALH is considered among Diesel fans to be one of the best passenger Diesel engines ever. The MkV/VI TDIs are the MkIVs of their day.


I'll just point out that I locally know ~10 modern TDI owners and every single one of them is an engineering/tech type...


----------



## genjy (Aug 7, 2005)

Maximum_Download said:


> Nope, can't possibly get any worse.
> 
> Oh, wait...
> 
> http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/19/vw-developed-4-separate-defeat-devices-over-7-years/


Yeah, sounds like a lot of people were involved. It couldn't be just the same small group of engineers over the 7+ years.


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

You'reDrunk said:


> nope....from an oil change I did this weekend:


How many miles on that oil do you think?


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

zhenya00 said:


> I'm well aware of the differences, just not sure I believe they really amount to anything in a passenger car application where modern gas engines are also extremely reliable. Either will require maintenance to make it over the long haul. Most gas cars are scrapped not because the problems are truly terminal, but because people won't spend the money that older cars require to keep up. My suspicion is that TDI's attract, in general, a different breed of owner who is willing to do the upkeep, and hence, the engines tend to last a long time because they get their routine maintenance done. Surprise surprise. The same thing happens in the Mercedes and Volvo owners groups, diesels or not.


Surprise, surprise, Mercedes diesels are known for lasting longer than their gas counterparts as well. It's simply a fact diesels must be made stronger than their gas equivalents due to the differing combustion processes. :thumbup:

It would make little sense for a mfr. to spend extra on making a gasser as stout as a diesel when it's simply not needed and would needlessly drive up the cost for said mfr. and in turn, the person purchasing the car. Almost all cars are built to some price-point and diesels are more expensive for a reason. :thumbup:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

You'reDrunk said:


> nope....from an oil change I did this weekend:


Hey, you got an easy way to get a stuck one of those to break free?


----------



## Jimmy Russells (Feb 4, 2007)

The main reason a diesel lasts longer is simple - It spins less. 

They also have much more complex and expensive fuel systems, that do not last the life of the engine.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

Silly_me said:


> Hey, you got an easy way to get a stuck one of those to break free?


Threads won't turn, threads turn but stalk won't pull up?? How can it get stuck?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Threads won't turn, threads turn but stalk won't pull up?? How can it get stuck?


Well, an easy way to get it to loosen for those o us that don't have the star tool :laugh:


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

Silly_me said:


> Well, an easy way to get it to loosen for those o us that don't have the star tool :laugh:


Forearms?


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> Hey, you got an easy way to get a stuck one of those to break free?


it took a bit of fighting....in fact, I broke 1 oil filter tool in just getting the damned cover off/loose. that should have been my warning.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

zhenya00 said:


> I'll just point out that I locally know ~10 modern TDI owners and every single one of them is an engineering/tech type...


You live in Ithaca. Everyone around you is an engineering/tech type. :facepalm:


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

zhenya00 said:


> I'll just point out that I locally know ~10 modern TDI owners and every single one of them is an engineering/tech type...


To confirm your theory....I'm an engineer/tech type of person who is very much interested in a TDI. Electrical Engineer to be specific. You'd think I'd be all over a Volt or a Prius, being a EE and all but I believe the EV technology just isn't up to par yet. The battery storage systems are the obvious weak point. I'll be far more willing to consider a hybrid or EV vehicle once they resolve the complex and relatively short lifespan of batteries. Until that time.....diesel for me.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

Uberhare said:


> To confirm your theory....I'm an engineer/tech type of person who is very much interested in a TDI. Electrical Engineer to be specific. You'd think I'd be all over a Volt or a Prius, being a EE and all but I believe the EV technology just isn't up to par yet. The battery storage systems are the obvious weak point. I'll be far more willing to consider a hybrid or EV vehicle once they resolve the complex and relatively short lifespan of batteries. Until that time.....diesel for me.


Yeah let's ne honest here, you like diesels and are reaching for reasons to justify it. Just say you prefer diesels, don't come up with ridiculous statements to justify it.

More robust and long lasting, give me a break. Maybe a 1983 mt diesel Rabbit, but modern diesels with all of the DSG issues they had, the insanely complicated after treatment equipment needed to make emissions (yeah right), etc are in no way more reliable than a good modern gas engine. 

There are tons of Honda and Toyota 4cyl engine running just fine on basic maintenance at well over 300k miles. My wife and I have done nothing but basic maintenance on her TSX and at 220k miles it's running like a top.


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

Phil Pugliese said:


> I have received 4 pieces of mail from Law firms asking if I want to join their class action suit.


I would be funny if nobody joined their witch hunt then the scumbag lawyers would be left with their d%ks in their hands. :laugh:


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

vwwtchr said:


> Yeah let's ne honest here, you like diesels and are reaching for reasons to justify it. Just say you prefer diesels, don't come up with ridiculous statements to justify it.
> 
> More robust and long lasting, give me a break. Maybe a 1983 mt diesel Rabbit, but modern diesels with all of the DSG issues they had, the insanely complicated after treatment equipment needed to make emissions (yeah right), etc are in no way more reliable than a good modern gas engine.
> 
> There are tons of Honda and Toyota 4cyl engine running just fine on basic maintenance at well over 300k miles. My wife and I have done nothing but basic maintenance on her TSX and at 220k miles it's running like a top.


I'm not looking for reasons. Diesel engines, by design and construction, are inherently more robust and longer lasting compared to a equivalent gasoline motor regardless of maintenance. But let me throw out some FACTS so there is no confusion:

1. Diesel engines are typically designed and built much "stronger" than a gasoline engine. Stronger engine block, crankshaft, bearings, pistons, etc to cope with the high compression and stress of a very high torque platform.
2. Diesel engines produce less corrosive exhaust which means the entire exhaust system, and turbocharger, lasts much longer.
3. Lower engine speed which equates to less mechanical stresses and longer engine life.
4. No ignition system to fail or maintain.
5. Less risk of oil contamination. Most gasoline cars can introduce gas into the oil via blow by. This causes excessive bearing wear.
6. Ethanol treated fuels tend to cause a higher fuel system failure rate unless the vehicle is specifically designed to operate on this type of fuel. O-rings, seals, pumps, etc can fail due to the ethanol or the water that is attracted to ethanol.


Simply put, there are more things to fail or go wrong on a gasoline engine compared to a diesel regardless of the perceived "complexity" of the diesel exhaust or fuel system. These systems have proven to be reliable.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

vwwtchr said:


> Yeah let's ne honest here, you like diesels and are reaching for reasons to justify it. Just say you prefer diesels, don't come up with ridiculous statements to justify it.
> 
> More robust and long lasting, give me a break. Maybe a 1983 mt diesel Rabbit, but modern diesels with all of the DSG issues they had, the insanely complicated after treatment equipment needed to make emissions (yeah right), etc are in no way more reliable than a good modern gas engine.
> 
> There are tons of Honda and Toyota 4cyl engine running just fine on basic maintenance at well over 300k miles. My wife and I have done nothing but basic maintenance on her TSX and at 220k miles it's running like a top.


Every engineer takes 400 miles roadtrips every weekend with an SUV's worth of gear. This roadtrip also involves 20,000 foot elevation changes where a torque lacking Honda isn't going to cut it. This is why every engineer drives a diesel.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

Uberhare said:


> I'm not looking for reasons. Diesel engines, by design and construction, are inherently more robust and longer lasting compared to a equivalent gasoline motor regardless of maintenance. But let me throw out some FACTS so there is no confusion:
> 
> 1. Diesel engines are typically designed and built much "stronger" than a gasoline engine. Stronger engine block, crankshaft, bearings, pistons, etc to cope with the high compression and stress of a very high torque platform.
> 2. Diesel engines produce less corrosive exhaust which means the entire exhaust system, and turbocharger, lasts much longer.
> ...


Unfortunately your "robust" engine is connected to several unrobust parts, namely the DSG transmission, and the exhaust system which now contains many complex and very unreliable components.

Do you really want to compare a gasser or even worse EV on the emissions side? Typical gas engine has a catalytic converter aaaaand that's it. No exhaust treatment, No urea injections, no DPF, none of those fault prone systems.

So again you prefer diesels to gas engine cars, good for you, preference is fantastic. But more robust than modern gas cars, not a chance.


----------



## pwm (Feb 26, 2009)

Uberhare said:


> I'm not looking for reasons. Diesel engines, by design and construction, are inherently more robust and longer lasting compared to a equivalent gasoline motor regardless of maintenance. But let me throw out some FACTS so there is no confusion:
> 
> 1. *Diesel engines are typically designed and built much "stronger" than a gasoline engine. Stronger engine block, crankshaft, bearings, pistons, etc to cope with the high compression and stress of a very high torque platform.
> *2. Diesel engines produce less corrosive exhaust which means the entire exhaust system, and turbocharger, lasts much longer.
> ...


To the bolded, are they proportionally more robust? To give a simplified, albeit silly example:

Say for example, a regular old Toyota 4 cyl is equal to 100 on the robust scale, but it also is equal to 100 on the stress scale. i.e. 1:1. It's adequately robust for the stress it endures.

Diesels, in order to cope with the higher stress, are 200 on the robust scale. Is the stress level also doubled, or only marginally higher? If they are 200 on the stress scale, then the 1:1 ratio is maintained. If the stress is really 150, but they kept building it to the 200 level, then the diesel is overbuilt in comparison to the gas.

In other words, if they are simply built to just match the added stress they have to endure, then when you tell me they are built stronger, my response would be: "well yeah, I'd hope they would be."


----------



## Shomegrown (Feb 26, 2002)

pwm said:


> To the bolded, are they proportionally more robust? To give a simplified, albeit silly example:
> 
> Say for example, a regular old Toyota 4 cyl is equal to 100 on the robust scale, but it also is equal to 100 on the stress scale. i.e. 1:1. It's adequately robust for the stress it endures.
> 
> ...


For most uses, they are more robust.

To maintain X mph going down the highway, a fixed amount of power is required regardless of fuel type. The mean cylinder pressure between a 2 liter gas or 2 liter diesel will be the same to maintain that power requirement - with the diesel engine being less "stressed" at that level.

The lower RPM range of the diesels also improves long term wear and durability.

People can bring in all sorts of anecdotes, but in long term controlled durability testing, modern passenger car diesel engines will outlast modern passenger car gasoline engines. There is simply more technology and more cost in the bottom end of the diesel engine.


----------



## Jimmy Russells (Feb 4, 2007)

Uberhare said:


> These systems have proven to be reliable.


Your diesel experience is clearly all from 15 years ago and prior.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Uberhare said:


> Simply put, there are more things to fail or go wrong on a gasoline engine compared to a diesel regardless of the perceived "complexity" of the diesel exhaust or fuel system. These systems have proven to be reliable.


My buddy Marc is a heavy truck mechanic. Might want to ask HIM whether the modern emission control systems have proven to be reliable! (Hint: DPF clogging to no end.)

An old skool diesel engine has the following emission control systems: Nothing. They're pretty reliable.

VW TDI up until 2006, and most other later-model diesel engines up until 2006, had the following emission control systems: EGR, oxidizing catalyst. Main issue with many of these involved the EGR system getting clogged up with soot. I never had any issues with my 2006 Jetta TDI in 430,000 km. I would say that despite the occasional intake clogging issues, which mostly got solved with later models and the advent of ULSD, that these are also pretty reliable.

Standard gasoline engines for the last couple decades generally have the following emission control systems: EGR (not always), secondary air injection (not always), evap, 3-way catalyst, lambda-sensor-based air/fuel ratio control. These systems are pretty well sorted out and aside from the odd O2 sensor going bad and "little dumb stuff" (sensors, solenoid valves involved in the evap system, etc) these systems are pretty reliable nowadays.

"Clean diesels" generally have the following emission control systems: Low pressure EGR, high pressure EGR (some engines have one or the other of these two), oxidizing catalyst, diesel particulate filter, NOx LNT (which appears to be in the process of being proven that it doesn't work in actual field experience) or SCR which itself includes the AdBlue storage tank and dosing system and since AdBlue freezes at a temperature commonly seen, a heating system for the AdBlue. Some systems have an H2S catalyst (VW does). The high pressure EGR, where so equipped, has its own mini-DPF filter since the path of high pressure EGR is before the main DPF. The low pressure EGR, where so equipped, has a back-pressure control flap in the exhaust system to ensure that there is enough exhaust back-pressure for the system to operate. Additionally, the fuel delivery system includes common-rail fuel delivery with multiple fuel injection shots per cycle.

The following are known issues with various "clean diesel" emission control systems.

- The Bosch CP4... injector pumps are a garbage design that was no doubt intended to save money. These problems are well documented but it's not just VW that has been having trouble with them. (The previous CP3 was a lot better ... but it's more expensive. I know of a kit for retrofitting a CP3 to a VW common-rail TDI to bypass the CP4.1 self-destruction problem ...)
- Mazda, in particular, has been having trouble with the post-injection fuel delivery causing fuel to build up in the crankcase oil. Others will have trouble with this if the owner uses significant amounts of biodiesel.
- DPFs clog. As far as I can tell, every single "clean diesel" engine manufacturer has been having DPF issues. VW seems to be having fewer DPF issues than most ... but in view of the current recall, perhaps we have a clue about why this is the case! Expect DPF problems to increase if VW has to increase the amount of EGR (which they probably do).
- Intercoolers freeze up with moisture from the exhaust being recirculated by the low-pressure EGR system in cold weather. VW has a service bulletin and intercooler upgrade to address this. For the new EA288 engine, they've gone to a liquid-cooled intercooler which adds its own electric pump and mini radiator. More hoses, more pumps, more controls.
- Low-pressure EGR back-pressure flaps crap out all the time. Friend of mine who has one of these cars is on his fourth one in 100,000 km. Granted, this is at least partly because VW chose to put this gizmo underneath the central tunnel of the car unprotected from road salt and grime. But where else are you going to put it? It has to be after the DPF because that's where the low-pressure EGR splits from the main exhaust flow, and that puts it under the car.
- EGR filters clog. Same friend has had this issue with his. (And a cracked DPF, which was thankfully replaced under warranty.)
- AdBlue dosing systems freeze up despite the heating systems. VW had this issue with the Passat TDI. The first winter that those cars were on the road, was a relatively mild one in much of the more heavily populated areas of North America. But the second winter was much colder in many areas, and that's when this problem cropped up.

The engine itself seems to be pretty good. But the stuff around it ... ! ! ! Perhaps the engine is still good for several hundred thousand kilometers as they always have been. But how many DPFs, back-pressure-flaps, and HPFPs will it take to get there??

I've gone away from VW diesels and have no plans of returning until these systems are sorted out and proven.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Shomegrown said:


> For most uses, they are more robust.
> 
> To maintain X mph going down the highway, a fixed amount of power is required regardless of fuel type. The mean cylinder pressure between a 2 liter gas or 2 liter diesel will be the same to maintain that power requirement - with the diesel engine being less "stressed" at that level.
> 
> ...


What about the rest of the car around the engine: dual clutch transmissions, high pressure fuel pumps, waterpumps, electronics, etc. Diesel engines don't exist in a vacuum. For the average car shopped who doesn't wrench on Sundays or drive with a 3rd pedal many European diesels come with extra baggage.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

GoFaster said:


> My buddy Marc is a heavy truck mechanic. Might want to ask HIM whether the modern emission control systems have proven to be reliable! (Hint: DPF clogging to no end.)
> 
> An old skool diesel engine has the following emission control systems: Nothing. They're pretty reliable.
> 
> ...


our 2012 T-Reg TDi was based in CO for it's 1st 3 years of service, and NEVER had any issue with the AdBlue freezing up


----------



## BeBop! (Jun 18, 2009)

Uberhare said:


> To confirm your theory....I'm an engineer/tech type of person who is very much interested in a TDI. Electrical Engineer to be specific. You'd think I'd be all over a Volt or a Prius, being a EE and all but I believe the EV technology just isn't up to par yet. The battery storage systems are the obvious weak point. I'll be far more willing to consider a hybrid or EV vehicle once they resolve the complex and relatively short lifespan of batteries. Until that time.....diesel for me.


A guy I went to college with who is going for his PHD in physics has one. These cars do attract people with more technical backgrounds.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

GoFaster said:


> My buddy Marc is a heavy truck mechanic. Might want to ask HIM whether the modern emission control systems have proven to be reliable! (Hint: DPF clogging to no end.)
> 
> An old skool diesel engine has the following emission control systems: Nothing. They're pretty reliable.
> 
> ...


Stop bringing up known issues. Interrupts the circle jerk around a diesel block, as if it's connected to nothing else.


----------



## Waterfan (Aug 9, 2012)

spockcat said:


> VW lures Daimler's compliance chief to manage diesel scandal


How do you know for sure you've well and properly "Screwed the Pooch"?

When your competitors are so afraid of the blowback that they actually help you to their own detriment.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Uberhare said:


> To confirm your theory....I'm an engineer/tech type of person who is very much interested in a TDI. Electrical Engineer to be specific. You'd think I'd be all over a Volt or a Prius, being a EE and all but I believe the EV technology just isn't up to par yet. The battery storage systems are the obvious weak point. I'll be far more willing to consider a hybrid or EV vehicle once they resolve the complex and relatively short lifespan of batteries. Until that time.....diesel for me.


EVs and hybrids don't have short lifespans and batteries have proven themselves to be robust. You're backfilling a rationale here. 



Uberhare said:


> Simply put, there are more things to fail or go wrong on a gasoline engine compared to a diesel regardless of the perceived "complexity" of the diesel exhaust or fuel system. These systems have proven to be reliable.


So have hybrids. Modern cars are so reliable, and so vastly improved even over the last 15 years, that any advantage of any particular setup is incremental and negligible. Hybrid, gas, turbocharged, or diesel, they're all going to last well over 150,000 with regular maintenance, so making decisions based on failure points is really reaching.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

GoFaster said:


> My buddy Marc is a heavy truck mechanic. Might want to ask HIM whether the modern emission control systems have proven to be reliable! (Hint: DPF clogging to no end.).


Let me guess, MaxForce engines?


----------



## Shomegrown (Feb 26, 2002)

2.0T_Convert said:


> What about the rest of the car around the engine: dual clutch transmissions, high pressure fuel pumps, waterpumps, electronics, etc. Diesel engines don't exist in a vacuum. For the average car shopped who doesn't wrench on Sundays or drive with a 3rd pedal many European diesels come with extra baggage.


1.) I'd buy a manual
2.) there's an extended warranty on the HPFP
3.) I don't care what the average person does, I'm not an average person


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

Shomegrown said:


> 1.) I'd buy a manual
> 2.) there's an extended warranty on the HPFP
> 3.) I don't care what the average person does, I'm not an average person



Manual, the average person buying an auto by a flying mile.


Extended warranty, that has nothing to do with reliability which is what Uberhare was going on about.


Again you not being the average person has nothing to do with the initial claims about average person and the reliability of the diesel car.

But thanks for playing!


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

VT1.8T said:


> Let me guess, MaxForce engines?


I think their fleet is mostly Volvo.


----------



## Shomegrown (Feb 26, 2002)

vwwtchr said:


> Manual, the average person buying an auto by a flying mile.
> 
> 
> Extended warranty, that has nothing to do with reliability which is what Uberhare was going on about.
> ...


Trying to twist the discussion with an "average person" qualifier is a straw man argument.

Once again, I don't care what the average person wants to do.


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

Shomegrown said:


> Trying to twist the discussion with an "average person" qualifier is a straw man argument.
> 
> Once again, I don't care what the average person wants to do.


The EPA and the Manufactures really only care about the "average person" as well.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Shomegrown said:


> 1.) I'd buy a manual
> 2.) there's an extended warranty on the HPFP
> 3.) I don't care what the average person does, I'm not an average person


You're making an off-base argument here. The question isn't "can Shomegrown find a place in his heart for diesels because he's a special snowflake," it's "do diesel drivetrains present such overwhelmingly superior reliability advantages, here in the year of our Lawd 2015, that it's reasonable for engineering types to cite reliability as a reasonable argument against hybrids and EVs."

We're discussing diesels as a generalized category, most of which do come equipped with DSGs and most of which are not bought by people with an affinity for them so strong they'll tolerate reliability issues. Your preferences are not really that germane. 

Are there plenty of failure points in every modern drivetrain? Yes. Are they all so reliable anyway that it's silly to cite reliability to defend any particular one? Also yes.


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

Gasser vs diesel
Coke vs Pepsi
.45 vs 9mm

Damn this thread went sideways


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

You'reDrunk said:


> our 2012 T-Reg TDi was based in CO for it's 1st 3 years of service, and NEVER had any issue with the AdBlue freezing up


ours ('12) Touareg adblue heater has failed twice already... and live in south FL. Last two years around Jan/Feb when it might get remotely cold.


----------



## dos (Jul 5, 2009)

I guess I learned on the last page diesels have good blocks. The rest of the car is just like any other car that has problems and an extended warranty may cover those issues(hpfp coverage has been hit and miss). Not sure what the advantage is getting a diesel over a gasser because I've never had problem with the block on any car I've owned over the past 20+ years.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

dos said:


> I guess I learned on the last page diesels have good blocks. The rest of the car is just like any other car that has problems and an extended warranty may cover those issues(hpfp coverage has been hit and miss). Not sure what the advantage is getting a diesel over a gasser because I've never had problem with the block on any car I've owned over the past 20+ years.


"Forged internals" is not the block. :thumbup:


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Shomegrown said:


> There is simply more technology and more cost in the bottom end of the diesel engine.


Rather than "technology", I would use "engineering tolerance designed into". As in they can withstand greater insults before failing.

The robustness:load thing is a good idea, and approaches duty cycle for a useful metric. Let's take the mighty ABA as an example. So overbuilt that it is basically the cockroach of VW engines. It takes complete and total oil pump failure to kill one. No amount of boosting, whatever, can kill it off. Why? Forged internals. The robustness:load ratio for an ABA is about 300:100. Everything else around an ABA also breaks - the electronics fail, the differential eats itself, you name it. And what do we call this venerable and robust bit of motor? The 2.sl0. The duty cycle for an ABA in daily use is probably 10%. The max duty cycle is closer to 80%.

TDI motors are built for max loads that outpace the static loads by a significantly higher margin than gas motors, which have well-understood sweet spots for running. It's why we get sintered rods in gas motors - the max expected loads aren't much higher than the daily static loads. This leads to more ABAness - forged internals, forged pistons, larger bearing surface areas, and so on. Back to our 300:100 ratio, but because the static loads are so low and the max loads are so high. And as far as duty cycle goes, daily is very low, possibly single digits, and max is stupidly high, up in the 90s. 



Turbio! said:


> We're discussing diesels as a generalized category, most of which do come equipped with DSGs and most of which are not bought by people with an affinity for them so strong they'll tolerate reliability issues. Your preferences are not really that germane.
> 
> Are there plenty of failure points in every modern drivetrain? Yes. Are they all so reliable anyway that it's silly to cite reliability to defend any particular one? Also yes.


I think Shome's point was that in the hands of a person who is biased toward TDI, the engine is a slam dunk and it is worth mitigating the potential failure modes to get one.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> "Forged internals" is the short block. :thumbup:


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

atomicalex said:


>


Grrrr.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

VW cars still considered 'outstanding' by 65% of Germans, survey says





> FRANKFURT (Reuters) -- Two-thirds of Germans still believe Volkswagen builds "outstanding" cars despite a high-profile emissions-test cheating scandal that has damaged its image, a survey found.
> 
> Sixty-five percent said they either fully or largely agreed the scandal was overdone and that VW still made excellent cars, according to results of an independent online survey of 1,000 people published on Monday by market research firm Prophet.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

VW diesel owners in U.S. face lost value and uncertainty



> SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) -- As the resale value of their diesel cars drop, U.S. Volkswagen owners are stuck, unwilling to sell their vehicles at a loss but lacking information on what fixes may be in store.
> 
> A month after Volkswagen admitted to regulators that its diesel cars were rigged to cheat on U.S. emissions tests, no concrete answers are forthcoming on how the company will compensate owners, nor how dealers should deal with them.
> 
> ...


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

*A month into VW scandal, no sales meltdown*



> Not too bad, all things considered.
> 
> That's what Volkswagen dealers say about the brand's U.S. sales momentum as its diesel emissions scandal enters its second month.
> 
> ...


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Speaking to the engineers buying TDI comment, all of the TDI-driving engineers and scientists I know are discussing how wonderful it is to live in MI, where you can register just about anything and there are no inspections or vehicle tracking to speak of. :thumbup:


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

cpermd said:


> Gasser vs diesel
> Coke vs Pepsi
> .45 vs 9mm
> 
> Damn this thread went sideways


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

atomicalex said:


> how wonderful it is to live in MI, where you can register just about anything


lol :laugh: _I got it one piece at a time and it didn't cost me a dime....._


----------



## Shomegrown (Feb 26, 2002)

Turbio! said:


> You're making an off-base argument here.


I'm not making _any_ argument here.

I know you're foaming at the mouth over this whole thing, but slow down for a second.

I gave a factual answer based on years of controlled testing and development to the question on if modern diesels are more mechanically overbuilt compared to gasoline counterparts. That's it.

Any discussions of average people's buying habits, reliability of auxiliary components, or comparisons to hybrids/EV's are strawman arguments to something I never claimed or addressed.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Shomegrown said:


> Imodern diesels are more mechanically overbuilt compared to gasoline counterparts.


Also, doesn't diesel being a better lubricant help in the wearing of cylinder bore and piston rings?


----------



## Shomegrown (Feb 26, 2002)

atomicalex said:


> Rather than "technology", I would use "engineering tolerance designed into". As in they can withstand greater insults before failing.


It's still focused on technology too. Bringing it into your arena, diesel has pushed technology on the triboligical front. Modern (even mundane) passenger car diesel engines use exotic chrome+ceramic or chrome+diamond or PVD ring coatings for wear resistance. These types of coatings are rarely seen on gasoline applications aside from exotic cases. There's also more tech in a diesel piston with things like hollow oil cooling galleries cast-in ring carriers. There is a bit of trickle-down effect from diesel to gasoline.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

mark my words....the majority of TDi owners will KEEP their cars once fixed; as I'd bet dollars to donuts, that mileage and power will be nary affected......and these are cars LOVED by their owners.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Shomegrown said:


> It's still focused on technology too. Bringing it into your arena, diesel has pushed technology on the triboligical front. Modern (even mundane) passenger car diesel engines use exotic chrome+ceramic or chrome+diamond or PVD ring coatings for wear resistance. These types of coatings are rarely seen on gasoline applications aside from exotic cases. There's also more tech in a diesel piston with things like hollow oil cooling galleries cast-in ring carriers. There is a bit of trickle-down effect from diesel to gasoline.


Totally agree with that. Piston design in Diesel is light years ahead of piston design in gasoline - for example co-cast pistons with iron ring lands. 

From my perspective, that is as much about building in tolerance as it is about the raw technology. The cool cylinder coatings are available for gasoline (see Nikasil on Al bores), but not necessary due to the lower loads and reduced space between min and max duty cycle. A high-tech gas piston will have a PTFE skirt coating, a Diesel one will be faced entire in plasma-deposited ceramic (except for the co-cast iron, that is bare for a reason). All of this is used to bring down weight and get the Diesel engine closer to the weight of a gasoline engine with comparable durability and performance. 

Materials being equal, the Diesel engine will be more robustly designed and built than the gas one, because the demands on it are higher.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

You'reDrunk said:


> mark my words....the majority of TDi owners will KEEP their cars once fixed; as I'd bet dollars to donuts, that mileage and power will be nary affected......and these are cars LOVED by their owners.


VW's one purpose as a company is to sell cars for mass profit.

If, as you imply, VW's customers see no meaningful difference between TDIs that pollute too much and TDIs that comply with emissions laws, why do you think VW didn't just produce compliant TDIs in the first place?

At this point in this thread, you must realize that VW purposely CHOSE not to market compliant TDIs, no?

Is it that you think VW is irrational?


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

You'reDrunk said:


> I'd bet dollars to donuts, that mileage and power will be nary affected


mmm i like donuts... ill let you know where to send those when you lose that bet


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

You'reDrunk said:


> mark my words....the majority of TDi owners will KEEP their cars once fixed; as I'd bet dollars to donuts, that mileage and power will be nary affected......and these are cars LOVED by their owners.


I'd keep my car if mileage and performance wasn't affected, and my cost of ownership won't increase... as long as I'm not waiting a year for the fix...


----------



## dos (Jul 5, 2009)

You'reDrunk said:


> mark my words....the majority of TDi owners will KEEP their cars once fixed; as I'd bet dollars to donuts, that mileage and power will be nary affected......and these are cars LOVED by their owners.


I'll agree, just look at VW's Facebook page, it's full of nothing but praise for VW and the hate of the evil EPA. The second part of your post raises the question of why cheat if performance and milage will barely be effected? Was it cost savings, reliability, first to market, sheer arrogance or something else.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

E CODE said:


> I'd keep my car if mileage and performance wasn't affected, and my cost of ownership won't increase... as long as I'm not waiting a year for the fix...


I'm in the same boat as you. I'll keep my car as long as;

A) I don't lose (much) economy (I don't care if the EPA estimate is lower. I bought the car specifically because of the fuel economy it actually gets)
B) I don't lose fuel capacity (I've heard talks about a smaller gas tank?)
C) I don't lose my spare tire (Fix-a-flat and roadside assistance isn't going to fly for me)
D) I don't have to pay anything for DEF while I own the car.
E) I don't have to sit in limbo for a year before I know exactly how VW is going to implement a fix.

At this point I've come to terms with the fact that I'm probably doomed to hate this car if a fix is forced upon me. Part of me hopes it gets hit by lighting or something so I don't have to deal with the BS. 

I just want my Golf the way it is now


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

*States probe VW over emissions, look for settlement money*
http://news.yahoo.com/states-probe-vw-over-emissions-look-settlement-money-073319715--finance.html

EVERYONE wants their piece of the pie, I guess. More suits = less money
for the owners.

The Other Victims of the Volkswagen Scandal: Dealers
Can't forget them, now that VW isn't trusted, sales here may take a huge hit.

Also, people getting all damaged at what I have said, and nothing about THIS?!
Volkswagen Scandal: A Blessing in Disguise for Oil Demand?

I bet you see a movie about this whole thing, you wait and see. People everywhere
want to gain financially from this. Would you go see a movie about this that
spans the time line over the seven years VWs been cheating on emissions? 

Well, what do you know, I actually found news on it by looking:
Paramount Picture and actor Leonardo DiCaprio's production company have acquired
movie rights to a book proposal by New York Times journalist Jack Ewing about the 
clean diesel scandal, the biggest crisis in Volkswagen's 78-year history.




Uberhare said:


> Diesel engines are designed differently than other ICE's. They typically have much stronger blocks, cranks, connecting rods, bearings, etc to handle the stress. It's the main reason why diesel engines are utilized in applications requiring relatively low maintenance for the amount of runtime hours. Trains, mining equipment, marine, etc all rely on diesel engines for this reason.....it's been a proven long-lasting powerplant compared to other fuel sources.


I was told at TDI Clubs that the blocks are the same as their 2.0 gas engines.
Diesel blocks used to be all steel/iron for strength, and another reason they took
longer to heat up. However, over there, I was told the blocks are the same
as their gas 2.0 counterpart.



PlatinumGLS said:


> How many miles on that oil do you think?


Looks like a lot more than 10,000 miles, or an engine without a DPF, and the oil
is soot loaded... That looked pretty bad..



atomicalex said:


> Rather than "technology", I would use "engineering tolerance designed into". As in *they can withstand greater insults before failing.*


Too bad people can't be built like that...



PnZrFsT said:


>


Amazing you can't type that, it gets censored, but you can graphic it in... 
****in'A... 
See?



Silly_me said:


> Also, doesn't diesel being a better lubricant help in the wearing of cylinder bore and piston rings?


Not anymore, the lower sulfur diesel doesn't have the same lubricity as it did.
I add Marvel Mystery oil to my fuel, safer than 2-cycle oil for DPFed ones.



You'reDrunk said:


> mark my words....the majority of TDi owners will KEEP their cars once fixed; as I'd bet dollars to donuts, that mileage and power will be nary affected......and these are cars LOVED by their owners.


Yes, Keep it, take the money or incentive for the recall, then tune it back to the way
it was. 

By the way, I am going to be now at 550+ miles a day average x 4, my route changed...


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

spockcat said:


> VW cars still considered 'outstanding' by 65% of Germans, survey says


This just in: Men love receiving blowjobs.


----------



## Tuono5740 (Nov 23, 2011)

PnZrFsT said:


> I'm in the same boat as you. I'll keep my car as long as;
> A) I don't lose (much) economy (I don't care if the EPA estimate is lower. I bought the car specifically because of the fuel economy it actually gets)
> *I agree*
> B) I don't lose fuel capacity (I've heard talks about a smaller gas tank?)
> ...


Just saying


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Mazda 3s said:


> This just in: Men love receiving blowjobs.


That's not news, the real news would be, women love giving them...


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Tuono5740 said:


> Just saying


I agree.... maybe the car actually gets BETTER with the fix... But I don't want to have to wait a year for it to get fixed... what if something happens and I need to sell the car in the meantime? The prices are already trending 6-10% lower now than they were prior to the news coming out... I guess I'd just be out that cash? Too little for the trouble of lawyering up, too big to just forget about it...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

VW suspends quality chief in emissions cheat probe, reports say



> FRANKFURT — Volkswagen has suspended its head of quality control, Frank Tuch, in connection with the emissions scandal at the automaker, newspaper reports said.
> 
> Tuch, 48, is the fifth high-ranking VW executive put on leave as the company and external investigators probe how software designed to cheat emissions tests ended up in 11 million VW Group engines worldwide.
> 
> ...


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Dumb question - When German companies say "suspend" does this mean given the boot without any severance or benefits or is it just a temporary suspension with pay still being collected?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

E CODE said:


> I guess I'd just be out that cash? Too little for the trouble of lawyering up, too big to just forget about it...


There's a ton of class action lawsuits that have been started already. Do some research and choose which one you want to join, then call up the law firm and join the class. It shouldn't cost you anything as long as you're not the lead plaintiff.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Dumb question - When German companies say "suspend" does this mean given the boot without any severance or benefits or is it just a temporary suspension with pay still being collected?


I believe it is the latter. Their reinstatement could be conditional.

It is very hard to terminate a German employee, and their drive for performance is not the same as a US employee.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> There's a ton of class action lawsuits that have been started already. Do some research and choose which one you want to join, then call up the law firm and join the class. It shouldn't cost you anything as long as you're not the lead plaintiff.


The $23 you'll receive after lawyer fees will be well worth your time.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

caj1 said:


> The $23 you'll receive after lawyer fees will be well worth your time.


LOL

this


----------



## spoonie (Dec 12, 2001)

caj1 said:


> The $23 you'll receive after lawyer fees will be well worth your time.


A friend of mine received $1,000 in the hyundai/kia MPG suit. Anything could happen.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

caj1 said:


> The $23 you'll receive after lawyer fees will be well worth your time.





You'reDrunk said:


> LOL
> 
> this


yeah, cause lawyers will represent 100+ people but only collect from one "lead plaintiff". they're benevolent like that. :laugh:


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

AZGolf said:


> There's a ton of class action lawsuits that have been started already. Do some research and choose which one you want to join, then call up the law firm and join the class. It shouldn't cost you anything as long as you're not the lead plaintiff.





caj1 said:


> The $23 you'll receive after lawyer fees will be well worth your time.





You'reDrunk said:


> LOL
> 
> this


Yep... exactly this. There are two class actions in Canada (last I checked). One was asking for $1B in damages... now... assume they win all of that, and assume that every affected Canadian TDI owner is represented (I know, neither will happen). Then I'd get about $4000..... but that would be in theyear 2020 probably. 

The other Class action didn't post it's Statement of Claim, which was pretty weird considring they were asking people to sign up for it. 

Anyway... a Mass Tort would really be what people should be starting, not class actions... it would be a much better option as they'd get out of whatever they own/paid on the car, instead of an arbitrary number pulled out of a lawyers ass.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

spoonie said:


> A friend of mine received $1,000 in the hyundai/kia MPG suit. Anything could happen.


and the attorneys got MILLIONS.

who's the VICTIM again????? 

EDIT: Hyundai paid out $395M........

http://www.kiplinger.com/article/sp...ou-must-know-about-class-action-lawsuits.html


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

GoHomeBroke said:


> yeah, cause lawyers will represent 100+ people but only collect from one "lead plaintiff". they're benevolent like that. :laugh:


I've been party to 4 class action lawsuits. They never charge anyone who's a regular member of the class.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

spoonie said:


> A friend of mine received $1,000 in the hyundai/kia MPG suit. Anything could happen.


Kia Soul?

My Veloster owning friend got a $120 check and will be getting a new check each year over the MPG lawsuit. I know the Soul had a bigger window sticker drop once FE figures were updated.


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

So... all of these class action lawsuits are just seeking recovery of the value of the car? What if VW implements a fix that marginally affects the economy numbers, falls within the EPA limits, and maintains the value of the car as a result? I guess people still get paid for "damages?" Or being sold a "fraudulent" product? How do you even price that out?


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

vbora01 said:


> So... all of these class action lawsuits are just seeking recovery of the value of the car? What if VW implements a fix that marginally affects the economy numbers, falls within the EPA limits, and maintains the value of the car as a result? I guess people still get paid for "damages?" Or being sold a "fraudulent" product? How do you even price that out?


Here is the Statement of Claim one of the class actions in Canada if you want to look at the 'damages' they are proposing. Bottom of page 6.

http://www.jameshbrown.com/uploads/..._-_canada_-_james_h._brown_and_associates.pdf


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

^ dang, a billion doll hairs! Maybe I should get in on one of these. Anything besides ethics preventing me from signing up with every class action I'm offered?:laugh:


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Buying 2012 Golf TDI today for a very good price. The dice have been rolled.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

Good for you Uberhare! :laugh: 








Clickity clickity CLACK!


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

uberhare upon delivery.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

jreed1337 said:


> uberhare upon delivery.


AsheyHare. opcorn:


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Emissions and recall be damned!!!










*patiently awaiting recall payment check in mail....*


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

jreed1337 said:


> uberhare upon delivery.


I hear coke is good for sinus congestion.


----------



## Harold (Jul 31, 2000)

For those concerned with a potential loss of performance: Wait for the fix, if performance is affected, there is always aftermarket "chipping".

I'm hoping my dads 2015 A3 TDI is new enough that a software update is the fix. Probably resulting in more AdBlue being used.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Harold said:


> For those concerned with a potential loss of performance: Wait for the fix, if performance is affected, there is always aftermarket "chipping".
> 
> I'm hoping my dads 2015 A3 TDI is new enough that a software update is the fix. Probably resulting in more AdBlue being used.


Should be minimal effort to get it right, not like the non AdBlue cars... those are the big issue


----------



## spoonie (Dec 12, 2001)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Kia Soul?


Ding ding ding!

No idea if she is getting yoy cheques.


----------



## Tuono5740 (Nov 23, 2011)

E CODE said:


> Should be minimal effort to get it right, not like the non AdBlue cars... those are the big issue


I'm all for adding Adblue. Please VW incorporate a tank that looks seamless and OEM. I've already got a Water-Meth system waiting for me at home, now I'm just waiting for VW to install my tank for me :laugh::wave:


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

Uberhare said:


> Buying 2012 Golf TDI today for a very good price. The dice have been rolled.


I dont know what the issue is, you are buying a car that is in perfect working order, just puts out a little too much NOX. If you're not in it for the environment, then have fun, dont look back and keep on dieselin'


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

phil123 said:


> I dont know what the issue is, you are buying a car that is in perfect working order, just puts out a little too much NOX. If you're not in it for the environment, then have fun, dont look back and keep on dieselin'


The outcome of the EPA vs TDI might backfire on him. We still don't know if there will be a mandatory recall that the EPA will ****block registration unless it's performed.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

McBanagon said:


> The outcome of the EPA vs TDI might backfire on him. We still don't know if there will be a mandatory recall that the EPA will ****block registration unless it's performed.


I do not see how the EPA or the feds in general can block any registration as this is a state-by-state issue, and is really based on the county or zip code the vehicle is registered in. The EPA would have to issue a US-wide letter to all state DOL offices essentially telling them to stop transfers, renewals, etc for these TDI vehicles. I do not see that happening. That would only occur if and only if VW is incapable of fixing the problem. All evidence points to a upcoming fix. 

The rural county I live in does not require emissions testing, so I do not care about the emissions aspect of this. Hell, I'm fine leaving the car as-is with the "faulty" emissions control. In fact, I'm going to fire up my smokey 2-stroke Stihl weedwacker to celebrate.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

McBanagon said:


> The outcome of the EPA vs TDI might backfire on him. We still don't know if there will be a mandatory recall that the EPA will ****block registration unless it's performed.


pretty sure that's not part of the EPA's mandate.

however, they could withhold federal $'s from states who can't meet attainment, "caused" by the additional emissions.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

You'reDrunk said:


> pretty sure that's not part of the EPA's mandate.
> 
> however, they could withhold federal $'s from states who can't meet attainment, "caused" by the additional emissions.


Correct. Vehicle registration is mandated by the individual states, not the federal government or EPA. And within those states there are certain counties that elect to forego the EPA emissions requirements (i.e. no testing required). The EPA can send a letter to the state DOL departments telling them the vehicles do not meet the emission statards but it will be entirely up to the state DOL to enforce this or not. If they decide not to abide they could face potential budget issues if they receive money from the feds.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

You'reDrunk said:


> mark my words....the majority of TDi owners will KEEP their cars once fixed; as I'd bet dollars to donuts, that mileage and power will be nary affected......and these are cars LOVED by their owners.


For reasons I've mentioned before, I definitely don't love the TDI. It's too much added MSRP, too much of a PITA at every fill-up, and too much potential for post-warranty hassle, all for too few low-end torqs and not enough MPG awesomeness.

VW TDI - It really is a cult, except they drink DEF instead of Kool-Aid.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

g-man_ae said:


> too much of a PITA at every fill-up


I freaking HATE when I forget which side the filler cap is on


----------



## VWVan (Feb 17, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> I freaking HATE when I forget which side the filler cap is on


Problem?


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> I freaking HATE when I forget which side the filler cap is on


are there any water cooled VWs from the last 30 years that have the filler on the driver side?


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

g-man_ae said:


> For reasons I've mentioned before, I definitely don't love the TDI. It's too much added MSRP, too much of a PITA at every fill-up, and too much potential for post-warranty hassle, all for too few low-end torqs and not enough MPG awesomeness.
> 
> VW TDI - It really is a cult, except they drink DEF instead of Kool-Aid.


My sarcasm meter is measuring higher than normal TLC sarcasm.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

g-man_ae said:


> For reasons I've mentioned before, I definitely don't love the TDI. It's too much added MSRP, too much of a PITA at every fill-up, and too much potential for post-warranty hassle, all for too few low-end torqs and not enough MPG awesomeness.
> 
> VW TDI - It really is a cult, except they drink DEF instead of Kool-Aid.


troll much?


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Uberhare said:


> My sarcasm meter is measuring higher than normal TLC sarcasm.


Yeah but he's right you know


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

GoHomePossum said:


> Yeah but he's right you know


I paid LESS for my TDI than most did for the VR6 model TReg.....so where did I go wrong???

not to mention, the urea injected motors don't seem to be (as much of) an issue.

buy smart.

remember, being Jewish, it's against my religion to pay MSRP. :thumbup:


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

thegoose said:


> Anything besides ethics preventing me from signing up with every class action I'm offered?:laugh:


There are laws against both civil and criminal fraud, which is what you're toying with.:laugh:


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

McBanagon said:


> The outcome of the EPA vs TDI might backfire on him. We still don't know if there will be a mandatory recall that the EPA will ****block registration unless it's performed.


If the MPGs and the Performance is the same, how will it hurt him? And if its not, they buy it back. I dont see a downside for him nor anyone that owns an OLDER TDI that are affected. I understand how it hurts say people with a 13 or 14 that doesnt have a urea system and are upside down, so to speak...


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

thegoose said:


> Anything besides ethics preventing me from signing up with every class action I'm offered?:laugh:


I didnt read the whole form on what i'm responsible for, but i saw the part where it said 40% of what i were to get, the lawyers get and i said nope. With that being said i would think there is a clause that you dont sign up with any other class action suit. Maybe LawDog will chime in.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

Well, after a lot of back and forth during the last week, I was able to get a descent trade-in today for my Mk6 Golf TDI coupled with the $2K loyalty. I switched today to an Mk7 Golf TSI. Will definitely miss the high torque and high MPG. 

Good bye TDI, it's been fun as long as it lasted...


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

Jack-DE said:


> Well, after a lot of back and forth during the last week, I was able to get a descent trade-in today for my Mk6 Golf TDI coupled with the $2K loyalty. I switched today to an Mk7 Golf TSI. Will definitely miss the high torque and high MPG.
> 
> Good bye TDI, it's been fun as long as it lasted...


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

You'reDrunk said:


> remember, being Jewish, it's against my religion to pay MSRP. :thumbup:


Sure it's not "Asian" ?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW examines if newer engine is involved in emissions scandal*

Maybe they should investigate their gas powered engines too.



> October 22, 2015 10:48 CET -- UPDATED: Oct. 22 15:08 - adds millions more cars may be hit
> 
> BERLIN (Reuters) -- Volkswagen is investigating whether cars using early versions of its EA 288 diesel engine may contain software that could manipulate emissions test data, potentially widening a scandal that has rocked the automaker to millions more cars.
> 
> ...


Everybody is a comedian.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

VW's emissions retrofit may be among costliest recalls ever





> October 22, 2015 09:41 CET
> 
> (Bloomberg) -- Volkswagen Group's worldwide repair of 11 million diesel vehicles to bring their emissions systems into compliance with pollution regulations is shaping up to be one of the most complex and costly fixes in automotive history.
> 
> ...


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

spockcat said:


> VW's emissions retrofit may be among costliest recalls ever


Just by 'em back


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

phil123 said:


> If the MPGs and the Performance is the same, how will it hurt him? And if its not, they buy it back. I don't see a downside for him nor anyone that owns an OLDER TDI that are affected. I understand how it hurts say people with a 13 or 14 that doesnt have a urea system and are upside down, so to speak...





Uberhare said:


> I do not see how the EPA or the feds in general can block any registration as this is a state-by-state issue, and is really based on the county or zip code the vehicle is registered in. The EPA would have to issue a US-wide letter to all state DOL offices essentially telling them to stop transfers, renewals, etc for these TDI vehicles. I do not see that happening. That would only occur if and only if VW is incapable of fixing the problem. All evidence points to a upcoming fix.
> 
> The rural county I live in does not require emissions testing, so I do not care about the emissions aspect of this. Hell, I'm fine leaving the car as-is with the "faulty" emissions control. In fact, I'm going to fire up my smokey 2-stroke Stihl weedwacker to celebrate.


I was playing devil's advocate because so much about this solution is unknown. 


None of us know what the fix will be (if there is one possible of fixing it at all).
None of us know what kind of performance hit the cars will take if a fix can be applied.
We can assume that there will be other owners (like Uberhare) that will not accept the fix if there is any chance of a drop in performance.
We also can assume that even if there is a buy-back from VW, that not all owners (like Uberhare) will want to do it.

Because of #3 and #4, I have a feeling that the EPA might try to get these vehicles off the road - no matter where they are registered. 

Until we do, all we can do is wish Uberhare the best, and hope that he can continue enjoying his inexpensive 2012 TDI without any interference from the Federal Government. 

We'll never know until it happens.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I did enjoy my 50mpg last night on the freeway, made me miss my TDI just a bit.


----------



## vwguru714 (Aug 23, 2007)

I wonder if VW could set up specialized shops to perform these updates here in the US or would they run into conflicts with franchise agreements with dealers?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

J-Tim said:


> Sure it's not "Asian" ?


we've been doing this for nearly 6,000 years.....we taught them how to be frugal. :thumbup:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

vwguru714 said:


> I wonder if VW could set up specialized shops to perform these updates here in the US or would they run into conflicts with franchise agreements with dealers?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Given the size of the country, I would think that they would need to set up 50 to 100 of them unless they are willing to pick the vehicles up, transport them to the shop and return them to their owners. All while they give owners free loaner vehicles.

Another possible (but probably remote) scenario is for VW to buy them back, retrofit/refurbish them, and resell them as refurbished/used cars. 

Either way, there is going to be some decent work for mechanics in the next 1 to 2 years fixing all these cars. If you figure that it might take half a day to fix a car on average and there are 500 mechanics working on the 500,000 US based cars, that is 500 days worth of work for each mechanic.

EDIT for math.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

You'reDrunk said:


> we've been doing this for nearly 6,000 years.....we taught them how to be frugal. :thumbup:


"Whaddya mean a loaf of bread costs two goats? I'll give you half a goat, and a story about my uncle, Herschel." :laugh:


----------



## Tuono5740 (Nov 23, 2011)

spockcat said:


> Given the size of the country, I would think that they would need to set up 50 to 100 of them unless they are willing to pick the vehicles up, transport them to the shop and return them to their owners. All while they give owners free loaner vehicles.
> 
> Another possible (but probably remote) scenario is for VW to buy them back, retrofit/refurbish them, and resell them as refurbished/used cars.
> 
> ...


This is a dream come true for tech's and service advisors. By my math most Service Advisors will make about $50 a pop minimum per recall. Half a day is 5 hours worth of work and around here average is about $20-25 an hour so even at the low end it's $100 per recall for a technician.

In other words, Sales may be in the toilet, but you're gonna see a lot more Service Advisors driving TTRS's soon :laugh:


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

Such a great link to this story:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ld-volkswagen-s-top-engineers-not-have-known-

I didn't know that VW is one of the few auto mfrs where only engineers are in top leadership. Makes you wonder why there are so many quality problems then, lol.


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

randy said:


> I didn't know that VW is one of the few auto mfrs where only engineers are in top leadership. Makes you wonder why there are so many quality problems then, lol.


It's part of the engineering / political culture of Germany. Germany and France are two countries (out of the ones I studied in a class I took in college) that highly values technical expertise in upper leadership. The US government's immediate governing bodies (legislative and executive) is an example of one that does not, which is why departments, like the EPA, NHSTA, etc, are created to help control certain technical areas that need regulation. 

Here ya go for reference: http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/13/why-dont-americans-elect-scientists/?_r=0

To further demonstrate some differences, just look at the difference in leaders:
Angela Merkel was previously a research scientist and wrote her doctorate thesis in quantum chemistry (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Merkel). Barack Obama graduated with a political science degree and later attended law school (source: http://www.biography.com/people/barack-obama-12782369) There are other examples over history that show this.

Ultimately what I am trying to get at: it is no surprise that people with very technical backgrounds are in upper management positions in a place where that kind of culture is promoted.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> I've been party to 4 class action lawsuits. They never charge anyone who's a regular member of the class.


I got $11.00 from a class action suit on Sylvania. It was for their
auto lighting bulbs. I don't even remember getting anything about it,
or even signing up.



2.0T_Convert said:


> Kia Soul?
> 
> My Veloster owning friend got a $120 check and will be getting a new check each year over the MPG lawsuit. I know the Soul had a bigger window sticker drop once FE figures were updated.


I looked briefly, did not see anything, what did the Mazda RX owners get
on their class action MPG suit? They overrated their HP and MPG also, and
on top of that, the engine defect suit.



You'reDrunk said:


> pretty sure that's not part of the EPA's mandate.
> 
> however, *they could withhold federal $'s from states who can't meet attainment*, "caused" by the additional emissions.


Like they have done 13 times already, under the lying woman Chief.

In CA and NY (and others alike), you'll probably have to produce proof if the recall
work to get the emissions certification, which is needed for registration. That is all
handles state-side. States that do not have emissions on Diesels, you will probably be
able to keep going without the recall.

Plus, as I said, and another just did (they said chipping), can recall, then sent the ECU out for
reprogramming.



Silly_me said:


> I freaking HATE when I forget which side the filler cap is on


On most cars now, look at the fuel gauge, there is an arrow that points to the side the
fuel fill is on. 
















See the arrows? I know not all cars have them, but new ones do. Not sure when
they started that, but since my 2000 Avenger ES, all my cars have the arrow to
indicate the side.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

randy said:


> Such a great link to this story:
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ld-volkswagen-s-top-engineers-not-have-known-


That was actually a fantastic article; probably one of the best I've read since the story broke. :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## pwm (Feb 26, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> That was actually a fantastic article; probably one of the best I've read since the story broke. :thumbup: :thumbup:


Agreed. Great article. 

One paragraph I found interesting, and directly contradicts post after post in this thread stating"well, no one buys diesels to be green anyways" is:



> In 2008, VW brought its “clean diesel” to the U.S. with a publicity worthy of Barnum. It landed a Guinness World Record by providing a Jetta to a husband-and-wife team who drove the car through the contiguous 48 states and averaged 58.8 miles to the gallon—unprecedented for any car on that route. At the Los Angeles Auto Show, VW entered its 2009 Jetta TDI Clean Diesel in a *Green Car of the Year contest whose jurors included Jay Leno and the executive director of the Sierra Club. The Jetta won, beating out hybrids. *At a conference the same year on diesel emissions, in Dearborn, Mich., a *VW executive boasted that the new engines had all the environmental benefits of a hybrid car, without any drag on performance. “You don’t have to sacrifice power to be environmentally conscious,” declared one of the slides.*


Maybe car enthusiasts on a VW-centric forum weren't buying them to be green, but VW was certainly marketing them as such.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

pwm said:


> Agreed. Great article.
> 
> One paragraph I found interesting, and directly contradicts post after post in this thread stating"well, no one buys diesels to be green anyways" is:
> 
> ...


I bought my diesel for a few of reasons:

- fuel costs
- powah
- reliability
- powah
- mileage


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

You'reDrunk said:


> I bought my diesel for a few of reasons:
> 
> - fuel costs
> - powah
> ...


Was the powah line a joke? The TDI Touareg is the slowest Touareg by a flying mile.


----------



## Shomegrown (Feb 26, 2002)

vwwtchr said:


> Was the powah line a joke? The TDI Touareg is the slowest Touareg by a flying mile.


For his model year, the VR6 and TDI were about the same in terms of acceleration. The TDI feels punchier around town though.


----------



## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

vwwtchr said:


> Was the powah line a joke? The TDI Touareg is the slowest Touareg by a flying mile.


this must be a joke


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

vwwtchr said:


> Was the powah line a joke? The TDI Touareg is the slowest Touareg by a flying mile.




it does 0-60 in about 7.0 which is plenty fast for a 5K lb truck.

it's the 406 lb/ft of tq you get from 1,200 rpms up that shoves you back in your set at just about any speed. 

fast, no. but quick with plenty of grunt.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Kind of like how to the Passat TDI will throw you back into the seat as it rockets to 60 MPH in 9 seconds


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> That was actually a fantastic article; probably one of the best I've read since the story broke. :thumbup: :thumbup:


This little gem from that article is so revealing:

"At VW’s Oxnard facility, the level of paranoia was rising in July and August, according to a person who worked there. In one instance, a manager accused a low-level employee of being an EPA plant."

Classic.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

Shomegrown said:


> For his model year, the VR6 and TDI were about the same in terms of acceleration. The TDI feels punchier around town though.


To 60 right? What about in the 1/4 mile?


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

DasCC said:


> this must be a joke


http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/suvs/1108_2011_volkswagen_touareg_first_test/

Nope just confirmed 5 mph slower in the 1/4 mile than the VR6, 10 mph slower than the hybrid. 

That is not insignificant.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

vwwtchr said:


> To 60 right? What about in the 1/4 mile?


who cares!??!? it's a truck! :facepalm:

it's more than capable in city traffic was the point I was trying to make. 

ugh!


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

:laugh: @ this page.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

vwwtchr said:


> Nope just confirmed 5 mph slower in the 1/4 mile than the VR6, 10 mph slower than the hybrid.


People regularly tear across intersections, not do 0-90mph acceleration runs.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

Surf Green said:


> People regularly tear across intersections, not do 0-90mph acceleration runs.


I see. The new metric for speed is now 0-30. Funny how that happens when it's diesels we're talking about. 

Not convenient at all.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

randy said:


> Such a great link to this story:
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ld-volkswagen-s-top-engineers-not-have-known-
> 
> I didn't know that VW is one of the few auto mfrs where only engineers are in top leadership. Makes you wonder why there are so many quality problems then, lol.


Germany only produces engineers and architects.



vwwtchr said:


> I see. The new metric for speed is now 0-30. Funny how that happens when it's diesels we're talking about.
> 
> Not convenient at all.


Good god you're annoying


----------



## Chmeeee (Jun 24, 2002)

vwwtchr said:


> I see. The new metric for speed is now 0-30. Funny how that happens when it's diesels we're talking about.
> 
> Not convenient at all.


I'm far from a diesel fanboy (hell, my car rarely burns any fuel). The draw to diesel is the low end torque. Is it fast? No. Does it punch well for a quick dart around traffic, quick lane change and accel? Yes. _Especially_ compared to most other fuel efficient options. Nobody ever called a VR6 fuel efficient.


----------



## Shomegrown (Feb 26, 2002)

vwwtchr said:


> I see. The new metric for speed is now 0-30. Funny how that happens when it's diesels we're talking about.
> 
> Not convenient at all.


I don't know why you're intentionally being difficult.

But off-the-line performance is certainly a reason to prefer the diesel. On the Q5 at least, the diesel is quicker than all the other versions 0-30 mph...including the SQ5. Heck, it's quicker to 30 than a Mustang GT, SS Camaro, or Scat Pack Challenger.

For most people shopping a Touareg, the half a second difference in quarter mile between the TDI and gas version is meaningless.


----------



## KARMANN_20V (May 25, 2005)

I live my life a quarter mile at a time. Nothing else matters: not the mortgage, not the store, not my team and all their bullsh!t. For those sixtynine seconds or less, I'm free.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Chmeeee said:


> I'm far from a diesel fanboy (hell, my car rarely burns any fuel). The draw to diesel is the low end torque. Is it fast? No. Does it punch well for a quick dart around traffic, quick lane change and accel? Yes. _Especially_ compared to most other fuel efficient options. Nobody ever called a VR6 fuel efficient.


And see, this is where EVs are going to surprise people - sure did me. An electric motor has low end torque characteristics superior to even a diesel, and delivers it with even less drama - they're deceptively punchy.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

Shomegrown said:


> I don't know why you're intentionally being difficult.
> 
> But off-the-line performance is certainly a reason to prefer the diesel. On the Q5 at least, the diesel is quicker than all the other versions 0-30 mph...including the SQ5. Heck, it's quicker to 30 than a Mustang GT, SS Camaro, or Scat Pack Challenger.
> 
> For most people shopping a Touareg, the half a second difference in quarter mile between the TDI and gas version is meaningless.


First off the statement was Larry bought the TDI for powah. I've shown the TDI is the least powerful and slowest version Touareg sold. Not talking about range or the "feel" of power, or fuel economy.

Why try and argue against the facts. I specifically asked if he was serious in that statement.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

vwwtchr said:


> I see. The new metric for speed is now 0-30. Funny how that happens when it's diesels we're talking about.


Stop being obtuse. It's not about speed. It's about the power being available for the type of driving that people do everyday.

I have 90hp pulling around 3200 pounds. By all popular TCL metrics, I could dead. Erry single tyme.

By the numbers, it's slow. It has one of the lowest power/weight ratios on the road, and in a completely different class as the more powerful diesels of today... and yet, it's never a chore to drive because all the power is right where you use it.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

Turbio! said:


> And see, this is where EVs are going to surprise people - sure did me. An electric motor has low end torque characteristics superior to even a diesel, and delivers it with even less drama - they're deceptively punchy.


Completely. I only have experience with carts, but it really cemented my hope that the next car I buy is electric.


----------



## fbobberts (Jan 13, 2008)

Turbio! said:


> And see, this is where EVs are going to surprise people - sure did me. An electric motor has low end torque characteristics superior to even a diesel, and delivers it with even less drama - they're deceptively punchy.


But they are also heavy. Very heavy. A Tesla Model S is a 4600 pound car. A diesel is usually heavier than a petrol counterpart by a hundred fifty pounds, not six or seven hundred. Even having power adding weight changes the equation.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

vwwtchr said:


> First off the statement was Larry bought the TDI for powah. I've shown the TDI is the least powerful and slowest version Touareg sold. Not talking about range or the "feel" of power, or fuel economy.
> 
> Why try and argue against the facts. I specifically asked if he was serious in that statement.


406 ft/lb of torque is powerful in my book


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

fbobberts said:


> But they are also heavy. Very heavy. A Tesla Model S is a 4600 pound car. A diesel is usually heavier than a petrol counterpart by a hundred fifty pounds, not six or seven hundred. Even having power adding weight changes the equation.


Why does weight matter if going from 0-30 across an intersection is the judging criteria. A Model S is not going to "feel" heavy doing this. 

I like how the goalposts constantly change in TDI threads. The posts are setup over whatever criteria makes the TDI look better. 



Sent from my KFFOWI using Tapatalk


----------



## Sortafast (Oct 6, 2001)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Why does weight matter if going from 0-30 across an intersection is the judging criteria. A Model S is not going to "feel" heavy doing this.
> 
> I like how the goalposts constantly change in TDI threads. The posts are setup over whatever criteria makes the TDI look better.


I've driven my friend's P85D, and I can assure you that "heavy" is not a word that entered my mind when accelerating. :laugh:

Diesel fanboys are ridiculous. opcorn:


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

2.0T_Convert said:


> I like how the goalposts constantly change in TDI threads. The posts are setup over whatever criteria makes the TDI look better.


Why do you care so much? Do you have some personal gain by making the TDI look bad?

It's mind boggling that people around here don't expect a certain level of blind loyalty to VWs given that this place was founded on a VW enthusiast site. Is it that hard to ignore?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

VW says its recall will be limited to older engines



> October 22, 2015 10:48 CET -- UPDATED: Oct. 22 18:30 - new story
> 
> (Bloomberg) -- Volkswagen Group said its current-generation diesel engine does not have software designed to cheat on emissions tests, meaning its global recall of as many as 11 million cars will not need to be even bigger.
> 
> ...


----------



## Shomegrown (Feb 26, 2002)

caj1 said:


> Why do you care so much? Do you have some personal gain by making the TDI look bad?
> 
> It's mind boggling that people around here don't expect a certain level of blind loyalty to VWs given that this place was founded on a VW enthusiast site. Is it that hard to ignore?


The anti-fanboys are worse than the fanboys IMO.

Sure, the fanboys can be annoying, but they are just excited/enthusiastic about something they like. It's an understandable reaction, even if a little misguided at times.

Then there are the few who seem to put a lot of effort into raining on their parades, calling them out, and patting themselves on the back. It's kind of weird and frankly a bit sad. I can't imagine anyone who was actually happy with there lives would spend much time protesting something they don't own or aren't interested in.

And this thread brings them out like bugs to a bug zapper.


----------



## Shomegrown (Feb 26, 2002)

vwwtchr said:


> First off the statement was Larry bought the TDI for powah. I've shown the TDI is the least powerful and slowest version Touareg sold. Not talking about range or the "feel" of power, or fuel economy.
> 
> Why try and argue against the facts. I specifically asked if he was serious in that statement.


You didn't prove anything, you looked up stats that anyone could find and he was probably aware of himself.

For most people, it's more about the power delivery and responsiveness within the RPM range people actually drive in. It's a family truckster SUV, not a sports car. Most people aren't flooring and redlining it on a regular basis. Within the RPM range people drive in (1000-3000 let's say), the TDI is more powerful and is much more responsive. The gas VR6 is about the same if not slightly quicker if you redline the snot out of it, which most people don't and don't want to do.

It's the same effortless torque/acceleration feeling people get from EV's and hybrids. People are always raving about the instant torque of a Leaf or Volt yet on paper the stats are nothing impressive. The way cars drive goes beyond the paper stats.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

2.0T_Convert said:


> I like how the goalposts constantly change in TDI threads. The posts are setup over whatever criteria makes the TDI look better.


No doubt, everyday, every drive, its all about the flatout quarter mile. Diesels are slow by comparison.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Buy horsepower, drive torque.

The problem with the powah statement is that it's not the powah. It's the torks. We buy them for the torks. 

The power is absolutely down on Diesels, and it shows in the numbers. But if you need to pull a stump or get moving in a hurry, Diesel torque will win every time. It's why the metrics get messed up - no one single metric tells enough of the story for every powertrain out there.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

VWoA sales expected to be flat while all other automakers up significantly



AP said:


> Volkswagen Group's sales are expected to be flat in October, even as total U.S. sales rise 8 percent for one of the best Octobers in more than a decade, according to data from J.D. Power and Associates obtained by The Associated Press.
> 
> Others forecasters echoed the J.D. Power estimates. Car-shopping site Edmunds.com predicted Thursday that Volkswagen brand sales will be flat in October, but said industry sales could jump as much as 11.5 percent over last October. Volkswagen and other automakers are scheduled to report U.S. sales on Nov. 3.
> 
> ...


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> VWoA sales expected to be flat while all other automakers up significantly


If sales are merely 'flat' I'd call that a big win. I mean, they can no longer sell what _was_ nearly 25% of their sales.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> If sales are merely 'flat' I'd call that a big win. I mean, they can no longer sell what _was_ nearly 25% of their sales.


And the rest of their lineup has nothing new to offer. VW wasn't going to have a great month anyway, even without the scandal.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Shomegrown said:


> The anti-fanboys are worse than the fanboys IMO.
> 
> Sure, the fanboys can be annoying, but they are just excited/enthusiastic about something they like. It's an understandable reaction, even if a little misguided at times.
> 
> ...


Pointing out fallacies means we are all anti-fanboys :what:

My error.

I love the feel of being thrown back in my seat when accelerating a Passat TDI but unlike a Model S it isn't so damn heavy it stops being an agile dance partner when pulling stumps.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

fbobberts said:


> But they are also heavy. Very heavy. A Tesla Model S is a 4600 pound car.


So is a base Touareg.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

Shomegrown said:


> Then there are the few who seem to put a lot of effort into raining on their parades, calling them out, and patting themselves on the back. It's kind of weird and frankly a bit sad. I can't imagine anyone who was actually happy with there lives would spend much time protesting something they don't own or aren't interested in.


Yup.. can only chalk it up to some deep seeded insecurity with whatever they are driving.. Sad, indeed.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> I freaking HATE when I forget which side the filler cap is on


No, it's because of how hard it is to find Diesel. Few top-tier stations carry it, few of those have reliable diesel pumps, and few of _those_ have the correctly-sized diesel nozzle. Not to mention the song and dance of measuring out and using additive at every fill-up. And after the warranty is up, who (other than the dealership... maybe) can actually fix these cars?



You'reDrunk said:


> troll much?


TDI butt-hurt much?



vwwtchr said:


> Was the powah line a joke?


It sure is in the Jetta, even with the 2015 version (Gen-whatever, does VW even know?) of the TDI.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

Shomegrown said:


> Then there are the few who seem to put a lot of effort into raining on their parades, calling them out, and patting themselves on the back. It's kind of weird and frankly a bit sad. I can't imagine anyone who was actually happy with there lives would spend much time protesting something they don't own or aren't interested in.


Dude, after all the smug certainty you threw around about Mazda's struggles with getting their SkyActiv diesels certified? 

Glass houses and stones, man.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

Steve Kalafer, mentioned above, owns the dealership I used to go to in NJ: Flemington VW/BMW/Porsche Audi. If you do a search on him, he's been one of the more outspoken dealer owners saying what he thinks of VW's handling of the mess.

On the recent quickness discussion ... As I probably posted 100 pages ago, my 2011 JSW TDI had more torque and was 600 pounds lighter than my 2003 A4 Avant 3.0q. May be slower 0 - 60 than the Audi, but had a lot more rolling acceleration "scoot, scoot." A lot more.


----------



## Shomegrown (Feb 26, 2002)

ByronLLN said:


> Dude, after all the smug certainty you threw around about Mazda's struggles with getting their SkyActiv diesels certified?
> 
> Glass houses and stones, man.


You'd have a great point if I actually had something to do with (or even thought that highly) of VW's 2.0 TDI.

I'm equally smug about how stupid VW was in this whole thing. They pissed in my Cheerios too.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

VOLKSWAGEN DIESEL VEHICLE PRICES DECLINE NEARLY 16 PERCENT, ACCORDING TO KELLEY BLUE BOOK DATA



> New-Car Shopping Activity Also Impacted by Recent Emissions Issue
> 
> IRVINE, Calif., October 21, 2015 – Kelley Blue Book www.kbb.com, the only vehicle valuation and information source trusted and relied upon by both consumers and the automotive industry, today reports that average auction prices, along with new-car shopping activity on KBB.com, for Volkswagen diesel vehicles have declined four weeks after the diesel emissions issue was announced.
> 
> ...


----------



## Shomegrown (Feb 26, 2002)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Pointing out fallacies means we are all anti-fanboys :what:
> 
> My error.
> 
> I love the feel of being thrown back in my seat when accelerating a Passat TDI but unlike a Model S it isn't so damn heavy it stops being an agile dance partner when pulling stumps.


Pointing out fallacies is fine, but don't twist it so those fallacies somehow represent the view of the entire ownership group. There are misinformed enthusiasts in any group.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

ByronLLN said:


> Dude, after all the smug certainty you threw around about Mazda's struggles with getting their SkyActiv diesels certified?
> 
> Glass houses and stones, man.



Forget that how about the arguments that hybrids and EV's stunk because their batteries would drain when running around the Nurburgring. Now to complain that people point out the fallacious nature of TDI lovers arguments that seek out to minimize any positive feature of any EV is just high comedy.

Listen I love diesels, and EV's, and gas posered cars, etc. I just don't pretend they aren't what they are. Diesels for the most part are slower than their gas powered counterparts. Anyone who wants to disagree feel free to look the numbers for cars sold with both gas and diesel engines and get back to us. 

Jetta, Passat, et al. The diesel is slower, and you get past 60 and up to say 80 or so and the difference is huge. Why argue against this? The diesel model will be more efficient, which no one denies, but all this nonsense well under 30 (which let's face it is all anyone ever drives after all) it's quicker is just idiotic.

Also when the hybrid vs diesel arguments were running full bore and hybrid defenders would point out city efficiency advantages of hybrids, diesel owner after diesel owner would claim they do allll their driving on the highway. Now when we talk about acceleration where the diesels lack, it's well putting around town is where the diesel shines. Typical cognitive dissonance.


----------



## Shomegrown (Feb 26, 2002)

vwwtchr said:


> Forget that how about the arguments that hybrids and EV's stunk because their batteries would drain when running around the Nurburgring. Now to complain that people point out the fallacious nature of TDI lovers arguments that seek out to minimize any positive feature of any EV is just high comedy.
> 
> Listen I love diesels, and EV's, and gas posered cars, etc. I just don't pretend they aren't what they are. Diesels for the most part are slower than their gas powered counterparts. Anyone who wants to disagree feel free to look the numbers for cars sold with both gas and diesel engines and get back to us.
> 
> ...


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

g-man_ae said:


> No, it's because of how hard it is to find Diesel.


Your profile states you live in the heart of the kingdom of brodozerdom, and you expect me to believe this?


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

atomicalex said:


> Buy horsepower, drive torque.
> 
> The problem with the powah statement is that it's not the powah. It's the torks. We buy them for the torks.
> 
> The power is absolutely down on Diesels, and it shows in the numbers. But if you need to pull a stump or get moving in a hurry, Diesel torque will win every time. It's why the metrics get messed up - no one single metric tells enough of the story for every powertrain out there.


:thumbup::thumbup:

and having owned a non-turbo MB 300 W123, I KNOW WHAT SLOW IS. But, I still miss that car everyday. even with a rebuild and properly tuned DI pump, it smoked on hard acceleration (if you can call it that); but it returned 40+mpgs on the highway and was a wonderful car.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

> New-Car Shopping Activity Also Impacted by Recent Emissions Issue
> 
> IRVINE, Calif., October 21, 2015 – Kelley Blue Book www.kbb.com, the only vehicle valuation and information source trusted and relied upon by both consumers and the automotive industry, today reports that average auction prices, along with new-car shopping activity on KBB.com, for Volkswagen diesel vehicles have declined four weeks after the diesel emissions issue was announced.
> 
> ...


This is what pisses me off the most about this whole thing.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

thegoose said:


> This is what pisses me off the most about this whole thing.


<< Bought used TDI for well under current market value.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

g-man_ae said:


> No, it's because of how hard it is to find Diesel. Few top-tier stations carry it, few of those have reliable diesel pumps, and few of _those_ have the correctly-sized diesel nozzle. Not to mention the song and dance of measuring out and using additive at every fill-up. And after the warranty is up, who (other than the dealership... maybe) can actually fix these cars?
> .


what are you even talking about here???

i have driven diesels in the Seattle area for almost 15yrs.
even driving up and down the coast through the western states over to Minnesota... i have NEVER not once had an issue finding diesel.

maybe its local to you that diesel options suck. but if my wife can manage driving a diesel for the last 6-7yrs... i would say anyone can.
she has not ever once complained to me about finding diesel, dirty/broken pumps... etc

and WHY do you NEED to drop an additive at every fillup? 
first, i tried it for a while years ago. didnt make any difference i could see. 
second, it was a minor annoyance, not a major one. 
third, if its that hard just add it when you get home or dont do it at all.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

ByronLLN said:


> Dude, after all the smug certainty you threw around about Mazda's struggles with getting their SkyActiv diesels certified?
> 
> Glass houses and stones, man.


do we have any proof the other diesel vendors in the US cheated? if not... if audi (except their vw 2.0), bmw, and mercedes can get it done... why is it unreasonable to think that mazda shouldnt be able to as well?


----------



## TangoRed (Sep 7, 2005)

dunhamjr said:


> do we have any proof the other diesel vendors in the US cheated? if not... if audi (except their vw 2.0), bmw, and mercedes can get it done... why is it unreasonable to think that mazda shouldnt be able to as well?


Mazda could, they just didn't want to use a urea system.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

Shomegrown said:


> > Wait which part is a strawman again? You aren't going to actually pretend you haven't sh!t talked hybrids and EV's on this forum for years and years are you? Remember your hybrid baiting A6 diesel video, cuz I do. :wave:


----------



## Sortafast (Oct 6, 2001)

vwwtchr said:


> Wait which part is a strawman again? You aren't going to actually pretend you haven't sh!t talked hybrids and EV's on this forum for years and years are you? Remember your hybrid baiting A6 diesel video, cuz I do. :wave:


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

spockcat said:


> VW says its recall will be limited to older engines


Very exciting news, thanks for posting this.

As I understand it, my Puebla-built '15 Golf TDI has the EA288. If it doesn't have the offending software, presumably that means that it legitimately passed the EPA's testing program, and I'm home free!

Which would be great, because I love this car.


----------



## Shomegrown (Feb 26, 2002)

vwwtchr said:


> Wait which part is a strawman again? You aren't going to actually pretend you haven't sh!t talked hybrids and EV's on this forum for years and years are you? Remember your hybrid baiting A6 diesel video, cuz I do. :wave:



Talking ****. Is there a definition for that? More like I have a preference based on my needs. I'm also quick to say if an hybrid or EV fits someone elses needs better, they should get one. That's not talking ****.

Glad the butthurt is still with you after all these years though. :laugh:




vwwtchr said:


> arguments that hybrids and EV's stunk because their batteries would drain when running around the Nurburgring.


I don't recall anyone arguing that. At best you've twisted something out of context like EV's aren't ready to compete with cars like RS7, Panamera Turbo, S-AMG, etc due to overheating within a few minutes, but I can't recall anyone making the statement you've set up as a straw man.



> the fallacious nature of TDI lovers arguments


You imply that "TDI lovers" are one group of common thinking people. They aren't. 



> Jetta, Passat, et al. The diesel is slower, and you get past 60 and up to say 80 or so and the difference is huge. Why argue against this? The diesel model will be more efficient, which no one denies, but all this nonsense well under 30 (which let's face it is all anyone ever drives after all) it's quicker is just idiotic.


You're the only one bringing 0-60, 0-80, quarter mile, etc into the discussion. You took his point out of context. Everyone is telling you that you don't drive a spec sheet.

A great example is the few times I've followed my wife in the Q5 and I'm in the Boxster. On paper, the Boxster is considerably quicker. In normal traffic though, she leaves me for dead from light to light without even trying. To keep up with her at half throttle, I'd have to drop the clutch and redline it. 428 lb-feet of torque feels powerful and it takes very little effort to accelerate very quickly. The Boxster feels weak unless you're above 5500 RPM.



> Also when the hybrid vs diesel arguments were running full bore and hybrid defenders would point out city efficiency advantages of hybrids, diesel owner after diesel owner would claim they do allll their driving on the highway. Now when we talk about acceleration where the diesels lack, it's well putting around town is where the diesel shines. Typical cognitive dissonance.


Once again, you're lumping all TDI owners into a single common thinking bucket. And you're using this thread as an example which is comparing a diesel Touareg to a gasoline Touareg - nothing to do with hybrids or EV's.

You're intentionally muddying the waters. Saintor would be proud of you.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Shomegrown said:


> T
> 
> You're the only one bringing 0-60, 0-80, quarter mile, etc into the discussion. You took his point out of context. Everyone is telling you that you don't drive a spec sheet.
> 
> A great example is the few times I've followed my wife in the Q5 and I'm in the Boxster. On paper, the Boxster is considerably quicker. In normal traffic though, she leaves me for dead from light to light without even trying. To keep up with her at half throttle, I'd have to drop the clutch and redline it. 428 lb-feet of torque feels powerful and it takes very little effort to accelerate very quickly. The Boxster feels weak unless you're above 5500 RPM.


it's funny you post this.....if I'm not into boost, or revving it off the line, the wife's TDI will leave my VRT behind from a stop light. I'm always amazed at how quick it is off the line with effortless squirts to 40mph.

we both keeping making the same points, but the others think we are talking about pure numbers or race cars. :screwy: we're just stating that in everyday traffic, the tq and awd of these vehicles is very impressive.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Chilcoot said:


> Very exciting news, thanks for posting this.
> 
> As I understand it, my Puebla-built '15 Golf TDI has the EA288. If it doesn't have the offending software, presumably that means that it legitimately passed the EPA's testing program, and I'm home free!
> 
> Which would be great, because I love this car.


Wiat a second. I'm confused. Are they saying the EPA is wrong in regards to the cheat software being found on the newer vehicles in CA? The article makes it sound like there is no cheat software on 2012 and newer VW diesels contrary to what the EPA said. 

This begs the question......can VW sue the EPA or the Feds for false information that contributed to a media s**tstorm and extensive damage to their reputation?


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Uberhare said:


> Wiat a second. I'm confused. Are they saying the EPA is wrong in regards to the cheat software being found on the newer vehicles in CA? The article makes it sound like there is no cheat software on 2012 and newer VW diesels contrary to what the EPA said.
> 
> This begs the question......can VW sue the EPA or the Feds for false information that contributed to a media s**tstorm and extensive damage to their reputation?


You might benefit from reading the actual VW statement.

VW is claiming (1) that the EA 288 EU5 and EU6 engines sold in Europe did NOT have the defeat device software, and (2) that cars with those engines meet EU emissions standards.

I'm jumping the gun in hoping that it means that EA288 engines sold in the US, engines which first hit US markets in '15 models, also don't have the offending software. But I fully admit being an optimist.

**EDIT TO ADD**

I don't know what "false information" you claim the EPA or the Feds have published about this, information that might make them susceptible to a lawsuit.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Uberhare said:


> Wiat a second. I'm confused. Are they saying the EPA is wrong in regards to the cheat software being found on the newer vehicles in CA? The article makes it sound like there is no cheat software on 2012 and newer VW diesels contrary to what the EPA said.
> 
> This begs the question......can VW sue the EPA or the Feds for false information that contributed to a media s**tstorm and extensive damage to their reputation?


You're not thinking straight. So it goes like this:

VW lies about their emissions systems for years.
CARB & EPA confront VW. VW maintains there is no trickery, but they'll issue a recall to update the ECU anyway.
The newly recalled ECU cars still fail to pass emissions. VW issues a second recall. Still says there is no trickery.
EPA withholds certification of the 2016 TDI models across the board. Only NOW does VW admit it has been cheating.
A stop-sale is requested for all VW 4-cyl diesel engines, on the basis VW has lied multiple times now and for many years. VW voluntarily complied while saying "sorry for cheating".
VW initially implies only American cars are affected, because the EPA's standards are so much more strict than Euro-5.
Oops! VW lied again; millions of Euro-5 TDIs are cheating too.
EPA has done nothing wrong. VW itself is who has admitted they were cheating almost universally across multiple product lines, multiple emissions standards, in multiple countries for multiple years. The EPA at this point hasn't levied any fines for anything nor has the FBI completed their investigation into what was done and what the scope was. VW can't sue anyone for anything because governmentally, all that has happened is a stop-sale order that VW willingly agreed to because as they admitted to, they were cheating. If governments were issuing fines for cars not affected then VW has recourse, but right now there's been no fines and no criminal charges. VW literally has nothing to fight against or sue for because they've not even been charged with a crime nor issued civil fines yet.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

Uberhare said:


> << Bought used TDI for well under current market value.


Yeah and I'm happy for you rolling the dice and buying right. Buying right is something I always try to do. I think I did all right on mine, but I definitely want that resale to stay characteristically high.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> You're not thinking straight. So it goes like this:
> 
> VW lies about their emissions systems for years.
> CARB & EPA confront VW. VW maintains there is no trickery, but they'll issue a recall to update the ECU anyway.
> ...


OK thanks. It's hard to weed out the misinformation. 






Damn. I was hoping the EPA would be found guilty and abolished from existence. One can dream, right?


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

Shomegrown said:


> Saintor would be proud of you.


Sometimes I miss Bob.


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

Went to the local VW in my area to test drive the new 1.4t Jetta. Casually asked the salesman helping me whether or not the scandal was affecting sales to which he replied: "Nope, sales are fine." Then I remarked on how internet forums and news agencies were painting a different picture. He replied, "Yeah, cause the internet is _always_ right."

I know we've probably said it already somewhere in the last 130+ pages, but I don't think VW is going to dramatically suffer in the sales aspect of things (we'll see what the October numbers yield.) I say this only because I think while the "internet" thinks VW is going down in flames, the rest of the public is seeing this as an opportunity time to negotiate better deals on decent economy cars. Jetta S with a good amount of features for the everyday driver would have been around $17k out the door with the loyalty incentive.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

vbora01 said:


> Went to the local VW in my area to test drive the new 1.4t Jetta. Casually asked the salesman helping me whether or not the scandal was affecting sales to which he replied: "Nope, sales are fine." Then I remarked on how internet forums and news agencies were painting a different picture. He replied, "Yeah, cause the internet is _always_ right."


If I owned a VW dealership, I sure as heck wouldn't want my sales staff telling the buying public that they are struggling to sell cars.

"Oh, good question, potential buyer! It's terrible, I just don't know how we're going to sell these things, there's no demand!"










I don't think a VW buyer can expect an honest answer to that question.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

vbora01 said:


> Went to the local VW in my area to test drive the new 1.4t Jetta. Casually asked the salesman helping me whether or not the scandal was affecting sales to which he replied: "Nope, sales are fine." Then I remarked on how internet forums and news agencies were painting a different picture. He replied, "Yeah, cause the internet is _always_ right."
> 
> I know we've probably said it already somewhere in the last 130+ pages, but I don't think VW is going to dramatically suffer in the sales aspect of things (we'll see what the October numbers yield.) I say this only because I think while the "internet" thinks VW is going down in flames, the rest of the public is seeing this as an opportunity time to negotiate better deals on decent economy cars. Jetta S with a good amount of features for the everyday driver would have been around $17k out the door with the loyalty incentive.


But is it a good thing if VW has to resort to throwing money on hoods to keep sales momentum. 


Sent from my KFFOWI using Tapatalk


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

2.0T_Convert said:


> But is it a good thing if VW has to resort to throwing money on hoods to keep sales momentum.
> 
> 
> Sent from my KFFOWI using Tapatalk



I don't think its necessarily a bad thing if they do it through the end of the year to least try and keep sales flat October through December. 

Outside of these forums and current TDI owners, I think come Jan 1, 2016 there isn't going to be much chatter from the general public. People have extremely short memories and coupled with the upcoming holidays, I don't think VW will be in the news much after the new year until the EPA announces fines or other criminal charges are officially announced. 

I personally have been getting all of my news related to this from this thread, outside of that I have not heard much of anything unless I go to another automotive site that has an article posted. When the story first broke, its all I heard on the news and radio, now not so much and I would predict that to continue.


----------



## TangoRed (Sep 7, 2005)

noatonement said:


> I personally have been getting all of my news related to this from this thread, outside of that I have not heard much of anything unless I go to another automotive site that has an article posted. When the story first broke, its all I heard on the news and radio, now not so much and I would predict that to continue.



Nothing has been really headline worthy since the initial story broke. I think you're going to see a resurgence once the actual recall procedure is announced and we get a better idea of what the dollar impact will be. Especially if it breaks records in terms of cost.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Volkswagen May Offer Discounts To German Owners Of Cars With Illicit Software: DPA

VW to freeze promotions due to emissions scandal

VW emission scandal file has gone 'missing'

Some of the latest news...


----------



## Sledge (May 15, 2005)

Jamie was just on NPR this morning with a few prerecorded lines on this subject :thumbup:

She has an awful deep voice though :laugh:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

VW suspends more execs in emissions rigging scandal, reports say - Winterkorn said to be in clear over diesel engine cheat



> MUNICH -- Volkswagen is suspending more employees as it investigates how software programmed to cheat emissions tests was installed in up to 11 million vehicles, reports said.
> 
> In addition to finding how who was responsible for the "cheat" software, VW is also focusing on executives who knew about the deception and failed to take action, the New York Times reported.
> 
> ...


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

> Many of the employees who have been suspended are likely to be found innocent of any wrongdoing and return to their jobs, a source told the paper.


Why do I get the feeling VW is just going to wait until this becomes forgotten news then put all the suspended engineers and most of the managers back to work.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

Sledge said:


> Jamie was just on NPR this morning with a few prerecorded lines on this subject :thumbup:
> 
> She has an awful deep voice though :laugh:





> *Emissions Scandal Is Hurting VW Owners Trying To Resell*
> OCTOBER 26, 2015 4:47 AM ET
> from WSHU CHARLES LANE
> 
> ...


:wave:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

VW offering discounts well above the industry average to maintain sales volume:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/sign-desperate-volkswagen-getting-094014016.html



Quartz via Yahoo Finance said:


> Volkswagen is in the midst of one of the biggest car recalls in history, after it was caught cheating on emissions tests last month by US regulators. Nearly 500,000 diesel-powered cars in the US are affected, and the scandal is tarnishing the carmaker’s reputation in a market that it was just starting to crack.
> 
> Pity the poor VW dealership. Although only certain diesel models have the offending emissions-cheating software installed—and have since been taken off dealers’ lots—it’s increasingly tough to shift any car from the Volkswagen stable in the US. Amid accelerating car sales across the industry, VW’s sales are expected to be flat.
> 
> ...


----------



## BeBop! (Jun 18, 2009)

The dealers in my area only seem to be cutting the prices on jettas, passats, golfs .... unfortunately GTI's are still holding their value.


----------



## nobbyv (May 18, 2001)

Sledge said:


> Jamie was just on NPR this morning with a few prerecorded lines on this subject :thumbup:


I was surprised he got cell service on his yacht off the coast of Fiji.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Enjoying my recently purchased 2012 Golf TDI despite the recall BS.  I've more than doubled my MPG compared to our Ford Flex AWD. :thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

nobbyv said:


> I was surprised she got cell service on her yacht off the coast of Fiji.


FTFY


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

Uberhare said:


> Enjoying my recently purchased 2012 Golf TDI despite the recall BS.  I've more than doubled my MPG compared to our Ford Flex AWD. :thumbup::thumbup:


Welcome to the club. 

I predict it will go down a few MPGs once the allure of good gas mileage wears off. When I first got mine, I was always trying to bump the average a little bit higher, "one more tenth", coasting down hills, "come on, one more tenth". :laugh: Two years and 44,000 miles later, and I don't really care anymore. I know it is good enough, and I'd rather enjoy riding the big ol' torque wave getting into traffic than driving as efficiently as possible.

Side note: 16 year old me would be shocked to hear me bragging about MPGs (which I did when it was new) and not how fast my car is.:laugh:


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Why do I get the feeling VW is just going to wait until this becomes forgotten news then put all the suspended engineers and most of the managers back to work.


Because that's what you're hoping for?


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

BeBop! said:


> The dealers in my area only seem to be cutting the prices on jettas, passats, golfs .... unfortunately GTI's are still holding their value.


And they always will. iI'e never seen discounts on the GTI... at least nothing in the realm of what you get off of a Passat or Jetta.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> Your profile states you live in the heart of the kingdom of brodozerdom, and you expect me to believe this?


Even crazier is the fact that I live near the intersection of an Interstate and a US Highway, i.e. plenty of commercial truck traffic in addition to the locals' pick-em-up's and farm equipment. (That last part was not a joke.) Of the 5 gas stations at that intersection: 3 don't carry diesel at all (including Shell!), 1 isn't a Top Tier brand, and 1 rarely keeps its diesel pumps working correctly. A little further out are 3 more top-tier stations that all supposedly carry diesel, except 1 has a perpetually busted diesel pump, and 1 has a gasoline nozzle on their one and only diesel pump :banghead: At least that last station is closest to my house and has been a reliable source so far.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

nobbyv said:


> I was surprised he got cell service on his yacht off the coast of Fiji.


Satphone, yo. Jamie's in the big leagues now.


----------



## Egz (May 30, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> VW offering discounts well above the industry average to maintain sales volume:
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/sign-desperate-volkswagen-getting-094014016.html


Which would explain why my sister is getting terrible numbers when they looked into trading in their 2.5 Jetta for something larger. I think her best option to reduce the hit is to trade VW for VW.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

Sledge said:


> Jamie was just on NPR this morning with a few prerecorded lines on this subject :thumbup:


If NPR post this on their site, can someone please post a link?  



> I'm jumping the gun in hoping that it means that EA288 engines sold in the US, engines which first hit US markets in '15 models, also don't have the offending software. But I fully admit being an optimist.


I have a late 2015, and I don't have the amazeballs torqs and MPGs that the TDI cult chants about in their DEF-drunk circle-jerks, so I suspect I have no "defeat" software.

EDIT never mind  VW provided the bad news via their VIN look-up on-line.

https://www.vwdieselinfo.com



VW said:


> Our records indicate that your 2015 "YOU CALL THE JETTA-VI A VW?" TDI GENERATION 3 *is affected by the 2.0L TDI emissions issue*. While a remedy is not yet available, Volkswagen is committed to finding one as soon as possible. We anticipate that there will be different remedies for affected vehicles based upon the generation of the diesel engine. We would like to emphasize that the EPA has noted that vehicles affected by this issue are legal and safe to drive.





caj1 said:


> The $23 you'll receive after lawyer fees will be well worth your time.


Aw, c'mon, clickbait like this is GOLD :laugh: 










(PS: Damn cookies and browsing history tracking. I saw this on the Watch-U-Seek forums.)


----------



## Sledge (May 15, 2005)

g-man_ae said:


> If NPR post this on their site, can someone please post a link?


See classicjetta's post above


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

Sledge said:


> See classicjetta's post above


Got it. Here's a direct link to the audio:

http://pd.npr.org/anon.npr-mp3/npr/...al_is_hurting_vw_owners_trying_to_resell_.mp3


----------



## SinisterMind (Feb 27, 2004)

My dad's 99 Passat is a money pit. Told him about the huge discounts on all VWs. He's going to take a look at either Passat or Jetta.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

SinisterMind said:


> My dad's 99 Passat is a money pit. Told him about the huge discounts on all VWs. He's going to take a look at either Passat or Jetta.


Good luck to him finding a diesel, those things are so popular right now you can't even find them on dealer lots!


----------



## jebglx (Jul 13, 2000)

SinisterMind said:


> My dad's 99 Passat is a money pit. Told him about the huge discounts on all VWs. He's going to take a look at either Passat or Jetta.


http://leasehackr.com/blog/2015/10/...-vw-right-now-hint-passat-for-124month-0-down


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

AZGolf said:


> VW offering discounts well above the industry average to maintain sales volume:
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/sign-desperate-volkswagen-getting-094014016.html


Still cheaper for them than extending the warranties on their high quality vehicles. 

And there is a lot more at stake than just sales volume and profit per vehicle.
Factories, suppliers, shipping.. there is a huge network of infrastructure that becomes increasingly expensive per unit if the sales volume slacks off significantly.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

SinisterMind said:


> My dad's 99 Passat is a money pit. Told him about the huge discounts on all VWs. He's going to take a look at either Passat or Jetta.


Has off warranty VW that's a money pit.
Wants to buy a new VW.
Logical?


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

Are there any VW sales people here (Brendan?) that can/are willing to comment on October 2015 volume vs. October 2014 volume? There's still a week left in this sales month, but I'm wondering how bad sales volume has actually been.


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

Silly_me said:


> Good luck to him finding a diesel, those things are so popular right now you can't even find them on dealer lots!


Oh it's easy to find them, just walk around back where they're all being hidden..


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

EDIT: Wrong page responded to


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

BRealistic said:


> Has off warranty VW that's a money pit.
> Wants to buy a new VW.
> Logical?


It's the Kool-Aid they serve.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Lwize said:


> It's the Kool-Aid they serve.


What's $20,000 between friends when we're talking about a 3 year b2b warranty?


----------



## Electron Man (Sep 21, 1999)

BRealistic said:


> Has off warranty VW that's a money pit since it hasn't likely been properly maintained.
> Wants to buy a new VW.
> Logical?


FTFY. I also have a '99 Passat, but I'm the _only_ one who's worked on it...ever.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> Are there any VW sales people here (Brendan?) that can/are willing to comment on October 2015 volume vs. October 2014 volume? There's still a week left in this sales month, but I'm wondering how bad sales volume has actually been.


Two Anecdotes: I stopped by my preferred VW dealer over the weekend to test drive a Golf Sportwagen. During the 10 minutes I waited, the PA announced two calls on hold for VW sales. Maybe it's all theater, I don't know! 

Also I'd been looking at getting a Sportwagen with the Driver Assistance package. In the last week, the three cars I've had my eye on around the state have all disappeared. 

So I'm going to hazard a guess that while VW may not see an increase in sales this month, I'm not expecting a 30% drop either.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

BRealistic said:


> Has off warranty VW that's a money pit.
> Wants to buy a new VW.
> Logical?


or you could say... 
has a 15-16yr old vw that BECAME a money pit but was great for 14 yrs. wants a new car, so time to buy another VW since it will be a great car for the next 14-15yrs.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

g-man_ae said:


> No, it's because of how hard it is to find Diesel. Few top-tier stations carry it, few of those have reliable diesel pumps, and few of _those_ have the correctly-sized diesel nozzle. Not to mention the song and dance of measuring out and using additive at every fill-up. And after the warranty is up, who (other than the dealership... maybe) can actually fix these cars?


Your profile indicates you live in Twickenham, Alabama, which is a neighborhood in downtown Huntsville, Alabama.

GasBuddy currently reports *128 fuel stations* in Huntsville have had their gas prices updated in the last 36 hours.

*56* of the stations have had their *diesel* prices updated in the last 36 hours.

*18* of those 56 stations carry the *"Top Tier" label*.

At least in your listed area, I don't see why you have such a hard time finding diesel.


----------



## tacticalbeaver (Apr 27, 2006)

There is such a thing as Top Tier diesel?


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

dunhamjr said:


> or you could say...
> has a 15-16yr old vw that BECAME a money pit but was great for 14 yrs. wants a new car, so time to buy another VW since it will be a great car for the next 14-15yrs.


Oh come on, that's no fun.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Chilcoot said:


> Your profile indicates you live in Twickenham, Alabama, which is a neighborhood in downtown Huntsville, Alabama.
> 
> GasBuddy currently reports *128 fuel stations* in Huntsville have had their gas prices updated in the last 36 hours.
> 
> ...


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Maybe I should reserve judgement until I run a few more tanks through, this doesn't look good: 

The worst tank I've ever run has been a little over 36 MPG. On average over 78K miles, I've averaged right around 40 MPG. I got the (CA mandatory) reflash which VW did to try to fix this issue (and it didn't even meet standards then, but I had to do it to register my car this year). I filled up my tank right after the flash, and my average over the last tank was under *32 MPG*. Now, I have been averaging in the high 30's over the last few months due to my new, short, city commute, but this is bad. A 10% MPG hit with no other changes. God only knows what the real fix might do.

I was already thinking about dumping the car for the past few months, I bought it when I was driving a ton for my old job so I needed the good MPG, but now I don't care as much because I only drive 5 miles to work. Now, with this whole fiasco, I can't do anything with this car, and VW has me stuck in limbo for who knows how long. I've owned 6 VWs over the years, and this will likely be my last.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Maybe I should reserve judgement until I run a few more tanks through, this doesn't look good:
> 
> The worst tank I've ever run has been a little over 36 MPG. On average over 78K miles, I've averaged right around 40 MPG. I got the (CA mandatory) reflash which VW did to try to fix this issue (and it didn't even meet standards then, but I had to do it to register my car this year). I filled up my tank right after the flash, and my average over the last tank was under *32 MPG*. Now, I have been averaging in the high 30's over the last few months due to my new, short, city commute, but this is bad. A 10% MPG hit with no other changes. God only knows what the real fix might do.
> 
> I was already thinking about dumping the car for the past few months, I bought it when I was driving a ton for my old job so I needed the good MPG, but now I don't care as much because I only drive 5 miles to work. Now, with this whole fiasco, I can't do anything with this car, and VW has me stuck in limbo for who knows how long. I've owned 6 VWs over the years, and this will likely be my last.


Some chatter is going around that this or the following week, VW will announce some incentives especially for TDI owners. In my case, I already jumped ship since I was able to get a descent trade for my 2013 TDI last week. Let's see if I jumped too early...


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Jack-DE said:


> Some chatter is going around that this or the following week, VW will announce some incentives especially for TDI owners. In my case, I already jumped ship since I was able to get a descent trade for my 2013 TDI last week. Let's see if I jumped too early...


Yeah, but I don't think I want another VW. Unless they were to give me a new one for a ridiculous price, I might consider a Mk7 Golf, gas of course.


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

Jack-DE said:


> Some chatter is going around that this or the following week, VW will announce some incentives especially for TDI owners. In my case, I already jumped ship since I was able to get a descent trade for my 2013 TDI last week. Let's see if I jumped too early...


It'll be interesting to see if their "incentive" is even significant. And will the dealers even be willing to take TDIs in trade? What will they do with them???


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

jen_madcity said:


> It'll be interesting to see if their "incentive" is even significant. And will the dealers even be willing to take TDIs in trade? What will they do with them???
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


My dealer is selling them as used cars. The only thing they cannot do is selling them as certified.


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

jen_madcity said:


> It'll be interesting to see if their "incentive" is even significant. And will the dealers even be willing to take TDIs in trade? What will they do with them???
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I still think the best thing VW could do from an owner loyalty/brand perception standpoint is to offer a ridiculous trade in number on all TDI's if you buy a new VW. It's what Toyota did for the Tacoma frames and it kept the owners in the family and happy and moved a lot of folks into new trucks that would have otherwise kept their old ones forever.

I'm sure it would benefit VW greatly to get as many TDI's back in their hands as possible before rolling out the "fix." It also keeps the dealers happy because they move a ton of new cars.


----------



## rawk (Jul 29, 2000)

I purchased 2 Passats over the weekend (1 for myself, 1 for my Father). The finance guy claims sales are up 40% this month on gas models. The sold 19 cars on Saturday! I've never seen a dealership as busy as this place was, and it's not even in a major metropolitan area. 

Admittedly, they were all probably at a loss, but I don't think VW is doing as bad as people think they are.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

rawk said:


> I purchased 2 Passats over the weekend (1 for my, 1 for my Father). The finance guy claims sales are up 40% this month on gas models. The sold 19 cars on Saturday! I've never seen a dealership as busy as this place was, and it's not even in a major metropolitan area.
> 
> Admittedly, they were all probably at a loss, but I don't think VW is doing as bad as people think they are.


I just started tracking the volume at my local dealer; yesterday I believe they had 121 cars total and today they have 115. Now I don't think they sold 6 cars in 24 hours, but perhaps they took the cars they sold this past weekend out of their online inventory.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Sporin said:


> I still think the best thing VW could do from an owner loyalty/brand perception standpoint is to offer a ridiculous trade in number on all TDI's if you buy a new VW. It's what Toyota did for the Tacoma frames and it kept the owners in the family and happy and moved a lot of folks into new trucks that would have otherwise kept their old ones forever.
> 
> I'm sure it would benefit VW greatly to get as many TDI's back in their hands as possible before rolling out the "fix." It also keeps the dealers happy because they move a ton of new cars.


This ^ VW needs to offer a large discount for affected TDI owner. IMHO, nothing else will really fill the void. We bought our JSW for a few reason, but the main one was the MPG and 2nd the potential higher resale value statistically associated with VW TDI when we sold it.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Jack-DE said:


> My dealer is selling them as used cars. The only thing they cannot do is selling them as certified.


Not the dealers in my area. There are two and both told me they can not sell a used, new, or CPO (certified pre-owned) VW TDI. I had to go to a non-VW dealer to find my 2012 TDI.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

AJB said:


> This ^ VW needs to offer a large discount for affected TDI owner. IMHO, nothing else will really fill the void. We bought our JSW for a few reason, but the main one was the MPG and 2nd the potential higher resale value statistically associated with VW TDI when we sold it.


My problem with this is that I am done with VW.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

Was just on thesmokerig.com, a BBQ web site. Ads are generated from online history. Just received my first banner ad for a lawsuit.

http://www.hgdlawfirm.com/vwemissionslawsuit/?gclid=CLLLuO-M48gCFYMUHwodoekFlg


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Cooper said:


> Was just on thesmokerig.com, a BBQ web site. Ads are generated from online history. Just received my first banner ad for a lawsuit.


Really? I've been seeing ads all over the place. I also have gotten no less than 5 letters (ads) from lawyers looking to sue VW for me. Not signing up for **** until I see what VW proposes to do.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

Uberhare said:


> Not the dealers in my area. There are two and both told me they can not sell a used, new, or CPO (certified pre-owned) VW TDI. I had to go to a non-VW dealer to find my 2012 TDI.


The first dealer I spoke to told me the same. The second one took the car and it is currently listed on their site. This is a VW dealer and from what I know is that they still can sell them as used but not certified. I think the dealers you spoke to just do not want to take the risk that the car is sitting on their lot for a long time.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Used VW diesel prices nosedive as fix remains unclear

Still waiting..................................



> Wholesale prices down 13.8% and dropping
> 
> Prices for used Volkswagen diesels have accelerated their decline as the automaker's emissions scandal entered its second month with no definitive word from VW on its repair plans.
> 
> ...


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

Mazda 3s said:


>


Slow down there, turbo...



Chilcoot said:


> Your profile indicates you live in Twickenham, Alabama, which is a neighborhood in downtown Huntsville, Alabama.
> 
> GasBuddy currently reports *128 fuel stations* in Huntsville have had their gas prices updated in the last 36 hours.
> 
> ...


First, "Twickenham" can mean more than what your 2s on Google found out for you.

Second, what kind of idiot spells out his precise home location on a public Internet forum? Not _this_ idiot, that's for sure.

Third, GasBuddy is as accurate as a coin toss in finding Diesel around here. For example, it thinks all of our Shell stations here sell Diesel, when in fact none of them do. (It's steered me wrong so many times since I got the TDI that I deleted it off my phone.)

I know it's Halloween, but you're going to have to put away the pitchforks and torches umpkin: 

BTW this story must be losing steam, it sank to page *2* of TCL! :vampire:


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

g-man_ae said:


> Third, GasBuddy is as accurate as a coin toss in finding Diesel around here.


The search gives more accurate results when you unclick "Internet Hyperbole" filter checkbox.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

g-man_ae said:


> Slow down there, turbo...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The only point I intended to make is that, in my experience, Americans who still bemoan the scarcity of diesel fuel are usually grossly exaggerating.

If my method of illustrating that exaggeratiion is too data-driven, so be it.

BTW, even for an idiot, it's not hard not to spell out one's precise home location on this public Internet forum.


----------



## nemo1ner (May 5, 2004)

My girlfriend is currently in Germany on business. She snapped a photo of her rental car, which is a Golf TDI. I couldn't help but notice that the car was debadged. I wonder if rental car companies are doing this on purpose so as to not draw attention to their diesel fleet. Or maybe it's just coincidence.


----------



## Jettavr666 (Dec 5, 2000)

Any idea what this scandal is doing to the prices of gas vw's? 

I have a few friends with gas vw's who are pissed about the situation and think that the scandal may effect their cars value as well.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

Jettavr666 said:


> Any idea what this scandal is doing to the prices of gas vw's?
> 
> I have a few friends with gas vw's who are pissed about the situation and think that the scandal may effect their cars value as well.


There might be a slight dip now but on the long term, it should be fine. At least that was my thought when I got my Mk7 TSI last week


----------



## Mightion (Mar 19, 2008)

My '16 TSI isn't even built yet, but in our family, we keep cars until they're long past having any value left.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

Mightion said:


> My '16 TSI isn't even built yet, but in our family, we keep cars until they're long past having any value left.


What?? Cars don't appreciate in value?


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Mightion said:


> My '16 TSI isn't even built yet, but in our family, we keep cars until they're long past having any value left.


I'm pretty sure my B5 is negatively impacting the valuation of something I own right now. :laugh: As long as it moves under its own power, it's staying!


----------



## tacticalbeaver (Apr 27, 2006)

nemo1ner said:


> My girlfriend is currently in Germany on business. She snapped a photo of her rental car, which is a Golf TDI. I couldn't help but notice that the car was debadged. I wonder if rental car companies are doing this on purpose so as to not draw attention to their diesel fleet. Or maybe it's just coincidence. [/IMG]


I'm not sure why, but lots of cars are debadged in Europe.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

seftonm said:


> I'm not sure why, but lots of cars are debadged in Europe.


Euro fans claim it's an austerity thing, but really I'm convinced the badges just get swiped and slapped on stolen cars headed to destitute countries for resale.

Kidding aside, though, "badge delete" options are more common over there than they are here, I believe. Porsche does it in the U.S., but I'm not sure if anybody else does.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

g-man_ae said:


> First, "Twickenham" can mean more than what your 2s on Google found out for you.


Bama isn't on the river thames?! Holy hell I have been lied to my whole life!


----------



## Mightion (Mar 19, 2008)

I'll never forget when my mother bought her Neon Sport Coupe. This was when the Neon was a wildly popular car, and dealers would do pretty much anything to add another tally to the board.

Her trade-in, and I use the term loosely, was our old 1985 Plymouth Horizon. It had the wrong side of 176k miles on it, had been in TWO major front end collisions (but not enough to total it, obviously) - didn't have a glovebox or opening rear doors any more, and rust in places I didn't know cars had. That little car didn't owe us ANYTHING. But it (almost) always started.

Anyway, back on topic, my Mom and I thought we'd be lucky if they gave us anything at ALL for it... and the car was $7496 back in 1985. To my eternal surprise... they offered her $1314 for it. We were completely shocked... I said to my mother out of the corner of my mouth; "Mom, TAKE THE DEAL." To be fair, it did have a new steering rack in it....


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

g-man_ae said:


> First, "Twickenham" can mean more than what your 2s on Google found out for you.
> 
> Second, what kind of idiot spells out his precise home location on a public Internet forum? Not _this_ idiot, that's for sure.


I'm guessing it means exactly what he thought - and that you do actually live there. umpkin:


----------



## TangoRed (Sep 7, 2005)

ByronLLN said:


> Euro fans claim it's an austerity thing, but really I'm convinced the badges just get swiped and slapped on stolen cars headed to destitute countries for resale.
> 
> Kidding aside, though, "badge delete" options are more common over there than they are here, I believe. Porsche does it in the U.S., but I'm not sure if anybody else does.


Mercedes started offering side badge delete, but yeah Porsche is the only one that allows you to leave off everything from the factory.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

> Matthias Müller, Chairman of the Board of Management of Volkswagen Aktiengesellschaft, has announced the five key steps to realign the Group. "We have to look beyond the current situation and create the conditions for Volkswagen's successful further development", said Müller in Wolfsburg on Wednesday. He presented a five point plan that he intends to use so that Volkswagen remains one of the world's leading automobile manufacturers in the future. Müller is confident that "Volkswagen will emerge from the current situation stronger than before". He announced that the cornerstones of the Group's Strategy 2025 will be presented next year.
> 
> *The Volkswagen CEO explained that his top priority is to support the customers affected by the diesel issue. "Our customers are at the core of everything that our 600,000 employees worldwide do", he said. According to Müller, Volkswagen is working intensively to develop effective technical solutions. In contact with the Kraftfahrtbundesamt (KBA – German Federal Motor Transport Authority) the implementation is set to begin in January 2016.
> *
> ...


https://www.volkswagen-media-servic...ec13158edd433c6630f5ac445da?p_p_auth=8H2sBDvU


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Can't get past page 165:



> The page isn't redirecting properly
> 
> Firefox has detected that the server is redirecting the request for this address in a way that will never complete.
> 
> This problem can sometimes be caused by disabling or refusing to accept cookies.


Was working before...

The page indicator bar shows:
Page 165 of 325 << First Previous ... 65..115 155 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 175 215 265 ... Next > Last >>

But I don't get past page 165.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Volkswagen has reportedly suspended its plans to restructure its North American arm, choosing to wait until any potential lawsuits related to its diesel emissions scandal have been settled.

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/s/volkswagen-reportedly-shelves-us-plans-210804274.html


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

Page 3? Blasphemous!

Looks like a great time to buy a new VW!
http://www.businessinsider.com/r-vw...as-diesel-crisis-keeps-us-buyers-away-2015-10


----------



## NoDubJustYet (Mar 25, 2002)

seftonm said:


> I'm not sure why, but *lots of cars are debadged in Europe* .


Not rental spec diesels...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Discounts like these aren't going to help the company's profitability, but I guess it's all about making goodwill offerings to the public, at this point, not trying to make profits.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-de...s-diesel-crisis-keeps-210316443--finance.html



Yahoo Finance said:


> By Paul Lienert and Alexandria Sage
> 
> DETROIT/SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Many of Volkswagen AG's <VOWG_p.DE> U.S. dealers are offering hefty discounts of $6,000 and more on new 2015 and 2016 gasoline models as the German automaker began more aggressive efforts to rebuild sales in the wake of the diesel emissions cheating scandal, a Reuters analysis of dealer prices shows.
> 
> ...


----------



## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> Discounts like these aren't going to help the company's profitability, but I guess it's all about making goodwill offerings to the public, at this point, not trying to make profits.
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-de...s-diesel-crisis-keeps-210316443--finance.html


I understand VW needs to do _something_ to get people into their vehicles, especially those already built, but doesn't this just screw current owners by (further) depressing resale values?


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> Discounts like these aren't going to help the company's profitability, but I guess it's all about making goodwill offerings to the public, at this point, not trying to make profits.
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-de...s-diesel-crisis-keeps-210316443--finance.html


DAMNIT! I'm stuck with my JSW until this s**t gets resolved -- would sooooo be picking up a 2016 GSW TSI with those discounts.


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

FastGTi said:


> I understand VW needs to do _something_ to get people into their vehicles, especially those already built, but doesn't this just screw current owners by (further) depressing resale values?


That was my first thought as well.


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

NoDubJustYet said:


> Not rental spec diesels...


No, they just don't put them on.

The number of people or companies that give two fvks about "diesel scandal" are far less than CL leads you to believe.


----------



## WannaCorrado (Apr 30, 2000)

Saw this on the bidding block today...

YR MAKE MODEL ENG BODY TRN PS PB AC TOP 4X4 ODOMETER COLOR PRICE
2013 VOLKSWAGEN PASS HIGHLN 4DT 4DSN A PS PB AC SR 4X2 46,748 GLACIER $11,250


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

When you can't meet the tests, get someone to change the standards:

European Commission softens plan for real-world pollution tests



> BRUSSELS (Bloomberg) -- The European Union's industrial-policy chief scaled back proposed tougher tests on car pollution at the insistence of EU governments concerned about potential cost increases for automakers.
> 
> The move highlights the industry’s political clout even in the wake of Volkswagen's deception.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Volkswagen likely to recall 100,000 cars in India, report says



> NEW DELHI (Reuters) -- Volkswagen Group is likely to recall 100,000 cars in India impacted by the diesel emission scandal, television channel CNBC-TV18 reported today, citing sources.
> 
> The recall in India, expected to happen before Nov. 8, would mostly affect cars fitted with engines that have been imported, but would also include 20,000 diesel vehicles made in the country, the channel said.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Spanish court begins proceedings against Volkswagen over rigged engines



> MADRID (Reuters) -- Spain's high court has opened initial proceedings against Volkswagen Group following the scandal surrounding its rigging of diesel emissions tests, according to a court ruling released on Wednesday.
> 
> The company must present a representative before a Spanish judge by Nov. 10 to face the accusations, the document showed.
> 
> ...


VW faces criminal complaints from 600 people in Switzerland

Probably one of the better places to go to jail.  Swiss chocolate ever meal.



> ZURICH (Reuters) -- Volkswagen Group is facing criminal complaints connected to its diesel emissions scandal that have been filed by about 600 people in Switzerland.
> 
> The cases have been filed with seven different cantons and will now be combined into one investigation led by federal prosecutors to streamline the process, the Swiss Office of the Attorney General said today.
> 
> Volkswagen posted its first quarterly loss in at least 15 years on Wednesday, hit by a 6.7 billion euro ($7.32 billion) charge to cover the cost of rigging diesel emissions tests, and said the final bill was likely to be higher.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

I'm still interested in sales volume for October (and honestly if dealers are 'hungry' and if I can score a great deal). We'll know what impact this has had in about a week, but just continuing on these posts:



silverspeedbuggy said:


> Are there any VW sales people here (Brendan?) that can/are willing to comment on October 2015 volume vs. October 2014 volume? There's still a week left in this sales month, but I'm wondering how bad sales volume has actually been.





classicjetta said:


> Two Anecdotes: I stopped by my preferred VW dealer over the weekend to test drive a Golf Sportwagen. During the 10 minutes I waited, the PA announced two calls on hold for VW sales. Maybe it's all theater, I don't know!
> 
> Also I'd been looking at getting a Sportwagen with the Driver Assistance package. In the last week, the three cars I've had my eye on around the state have all disappeared.
> 
> So I'm going to hazard a guess that while VW may not see an increase in sales this month, I'm not expecting a 30% drop either.





silverspeedbuggy said:


> I just started tracking the volume at my local dealer; yesterday I believe they had *121 cars total and today they have 115*. Now I don't think they sold 6 cars in 24 hours, but perhaps they took the cars they sold this past weekend out of their online inventory.


Today my local preferred dealer has 107 models listed online. I wouldn't classify them as a 'large' dealership, but 14 sales in just a few days seems not so scary. Those sales reps here, is it not so bad out there? Are VW owners jumping on the $2K bonus now? Will this sustain in Nov/Dec or are all those that were drawn in by the bonus dry up in the next few months? Could, and this seems weird to think about, VW actually see a lift in sales? I doubt it, but since they are all over the news could this maybe put VW back on people's radar; the concept of 'negative attention is still attention' (which makes me think of sales of white Broncos skyrocketing after the OJ chase)?


----------



## r3210vw (Mar 26, 2005)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> I'm still interested in sales volume for October (and honestly if dealers are 'hungry' and if I can score a great deal). We'll know what impact this has had in about a week, but just continuing on these posts:
> 
> Today my local preferred dealer has 107 models listed online. I wouldn't classify them as a 'large' dealership, but 14 sales in just a few days seems not so scary. Those sales reps here, is it not so bad out there? Are VW owners jumping on the $2K bonus now? Will this sustain in Nov/Dec or are all those that were drawn in by the bonus dry up in the next few months? Could, and this seems weird to think about, VW actually see a lift in sales? I doubt it, but since they are all over the news could this maybe put VW back on people's radar; the concept of 'negative attention is still attention' (which makes me think of sales of white Broncos skyrocketing after the OJ chase)?


They are hungry is my impression. There's a chain dealership in my metro area that uses best-price/non-negotiable approach and I have not been able to talk pricing much in the past. They are now willing to negotiate over emails. I got a quote on a 2015 GTI with $5,024 off MSRP.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> I'm still interested in sales volume for October (and honestly if dealers are 'hungry' and if I can score a great deal). We'll know what impact this has had in about a week, but just continuing on these posts:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It may be that VW eats the money needed to keep sales moving. So if they just accept a $3k incentive on every vehicle until at least the biggest part of the storm has blown over, they may be able to stave off a huge sales drop. 

It seems like other auto manufacturers in the past have taken the sales drop instead of just eating $3-5k on every sale to maintain volume. Who knows which way is better.


----------



## Caruser4 (Apr 15, 2008)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> I'm still interested in sales volume for October (and honestly if dealers are 'hungry' and if I can score a great deal).


I don't know about other areas but I went to the local dealership to pick up some brake fluid and check out the inventory. I kinda expected the sales guys to pounce as soon as they saw me eyeing the cars but I got nothing. In fact, the sales guys were just sitting outside on their phones. I was disappointed nobody even approached me. Anyway, I don't think they're hurting as bad as I was lead to believe


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

I have an oil change appointment this evening at a new dealer... lets see if any of their sales guys are hungry.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Caruser4 said:


> Anyway, I don't think they're hurting as bad as I was lead to believe


Well it's a different kind of hurt. VW can play games at this point. If they held the line on pricing, the whole world would see that their sales numbers are way off and point to that as failure. However instead they have said that "emissions" will cost them at least 7 billion Euros this year, and possible many more next year. This is where they start gaming the system: the emissions fix might only cost 1-2 billion Euros, plus some fines in 2016 or 2017, but in the mean time, they can dump 3, 5, maybe 10 billion Euros into subsidizing sales and say it's because of "emissions." The sales numbers remain strong, they take a huge financial loss but current management blames it on the past management (classic trick of management/government to blame your predecessor) and no one's the wiser.


----------



## Caruser4 (Apr 15, 2008)

AZGolf said:


> Well it's a different kind of hurt. VW can play games at this point. If they held the line on pricing, the whole world would see that their sales numbers are way off and point to that as failure. However instead they have said that "emissions" will cost them at least 7 billion Euros this year, and possible many more next year. This is where they start gaming the system: the emissions fix might only cost 1-2 billion Euros, plus some fines in 2016 or 2017, but in the mean time, they can dump 3, 5, maybe 10 billion Euros into subsidizing sales and say it's because of "emissions." The sales numbers remain strong, they take a huge financial loss but current management blames it on the past management (classic trick of management/government to blame your predecessor) and no one's the wiser.


Sorry, I should have specified but when I said "they" I meant the individual salesmen.

I saw a post saying that salesmen were quitting their jobs because of lack of foot traffic cause by the diesel scandal. That wasn't the only post I saw implying that sales numbers were down and that salesmen were desperate to make a deal. Anyway, I didn't see any kind of urgency to make a deal.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

FastGTi said:


> I understand VW needs to do _something_ to get people into their vehicles, especially those already built, but doesn't this just screw current owners by (further) depressing resale values?


Yes, VW selling cars for a lot less than they used to, especially if it goes on for some amount of time, will reduce resale values. Matters most to people that want to sell their relatively new car that paid the higher price and much less to the people that keep it a long time. If you bought a VW new last year and want to sell it this year your one year old car is competing with the heavily discounted new car.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

Something interesting I was told today by a salesman... I was interested in trading my Passat TDi in for a GTi they have here at the local dealer, and the salesman informed me I quote " At this time we cannot take any TDI trade ins. VW will be sending bonus money for all TDI customers here soon. "... 

Anyone heard anything about this? It better be a good amount if I can't even trade in my VW to a VW dealership that I have financed with VW Credit.


----------



## WISVW (Aug 25, 2003)

My local dealer, which is kind of small, said they are on pace to beat last years October, and that is with all the diesels off the lot. He said usually diesels are 50% of their business. He said their problem now, they can't get enough cars! Passats are gone, they are hoping for incentives on Jettas now.


----------



## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

wannabeeuroTR said:


> Something interesting I was told today by a salesman... I was interested in trading my Passat TDi in for a GTi they have here at the local dealer, and the salesman informed me I quote " At this time we cannot take any TDI trade ins. VW will be sending bonus money for all TDI customers here soon. "...
> 
> Anyone heard anything about this? It better be a good amount if I can't even trade in my VW to a VW dealership that I have financed with VW Credit.


That's probably dealer discretion. Since they can resell them they'll just sit in storage. Similar issue with my Tiguan that I traded in. Since it has the clockspring recall, (with no current fix from VW) it will sit in storage.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

E CODE said:


> I have an oil change appointment this evening at a new dealer... lets see if any of their sales guys are hungry.


I was only there for 45 minutes, and all four sales guys were with customers at desks for most of that time. I struck up a conversation with a guy who was literally leaving for the night when he say my Wolfsburg hat and asked me what car I had...

They do have 33 TDI's on the lot they can't sell, but otherwise seem to be doing okay.


----------



## brennok (Jun 5, 2007)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> I'm still interested in sales volume for October (and honestly if dealers are 'hungry' and if I can score a great deal). We'll know what impact this has had in about a week, but just continuing on these posts:
> 
> Today my local preferred dealer has 107 models listed online. I wouldn't classify them as a 'large' dealership, but 14 sales in just a few days seems not so scary. Those sales reps here, is it not so bad out there? Are VW owners jumping on the $2K bonus now? Will this sustain in Nov/Dec or are all those that were drawn in by the bonus dry up in the next few months? Could, and this seems weird to think about, VW actually see a lift in sales? I doubt it, but since they are all over the news could this maybe put VW back on people's radar; the concept of 'negative attention is still attention' (which makes me think of sales of white Broncos skyrocketing after the OJ chase)?


As I went around this weekend, playing at dealerships most of the salesmen told me they were busier than they have ever been since everyone is looking for a deal. Now a couple said they definitely had more discretion to work deals than they normally would, but it didn't sound like crazy deals. 

Of course if like me you are looking for a Golf R, it doesn't matter since they don't have the cars to sell.


----------



## Double-V (Mar 20, 2001)

spockcat said:


> Volkswagen likely to recall 100,000 cars in India, report says


India? Seriously???? They're worried about NOx in a place like India where everyone has BO and they throw dead people and animals into water bodies????


----------



## nemo1ner (May 5, 2004)

Double-V said:


> India? Seriously???? They're worried about NOx in a place like India where everyone has BO and they throw dead people and animals into water bodies????


Yeah. **** those people, right?


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

The $2,000 Loyalty Bonus is about to expire. 
This final weekend push should deplete the rest of the "good" inventory. 

I wonder if VW plans on extending the bonus.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

Lwize said:


> The $2,000 Loyalty Bonus is about to expire.
> This final weekend push should deplete the rest of the "good" inventory.
> 
> I wonder if VW plans on extending the bonus.


My local dealer has very few GTIs and Golfs on the lot. Business must have been indeed very good with the $2K bonus.


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

Jack-DE said:


> My local dealer has very few GTIs and Golfs on the lot. Business must have been indeed very good with the $2K bonus.


I was at a local dealership getting an oil change yesterday and found the same thing. Very little inventory on the lot and these guys usually have the lot packed with another parking lot of extra inventory on top of it. 

They had one GTI in the showroom and I didn't see any Golfs in my walk around. There were two TSI Sportwagens and a bunch of TSI Passats/Jettas in various trims...mostly poverty spec though. 

While waiting I overheard one of the other customers ask the service writers if they had taken a paycut from VW after the scandal.


----------



## r3210vw (Mar 26, 2005)

I was not in the market for a GTI but ending up with one last night. Sticker was $27,935 for a 3-door GTI S with DSG and Lighting Package (along with 2 sets of mats and cargo mat + blocks). I got it for $21,750 before TTL. The showroom was not busy and I was in and out within 90 minutes.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

r3210vw said:


> I was not in the market for a GTI but ending up with one last night. Sticker was $27,935 for a 3-door GTI S with DSG and Lighting Package (along with 2 sets of mats and cargo mat + blocks). I got it for $21,750 before TTL. The showroom was not busy and I was in and out within 90 minutes.


2015 or 2016?

I had a similar deal lined up, but couldn't pull the trigger. I had a *2015* 3 door S, manual, lighting, $26,600 sticker lined up. Dealer had add'l cash on the table for 2015s; $20,300 and sales rep said "they're approving crazy deals, so make us an offer." This was 3 days before my wedding (and a 9 hour drive away) and I said if it's still available after the big day I'd jump on it. It sold that weekend.


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

r3210vw said:


> I was not in the market for a GTI but ending up with one last night. Sticker was $27,935 for a 3-door GTI S with DSG and Lighting Package (along with 2 sets of mats and cargo mat + blocks). I got it for $21,750 before TTL. The showroom was not busy and I was in and out within 90 minutes.


Damn! That is a great price. Now you are making me think about trading... :banghead:


----------



## r3210vw (Mar 26, 2005)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> 2015 or 2016?
> 
> I had a similar deal lined up, but couldn't pull the trigger. I had a *2015* 3 door S, manual, lighting, $26,600 sticker lined up. Dealer had add'l cash on the table for 2015s; $20,300 and sales rep said "they're approving crazy deals, so make us an offer." This was 3 days before my wedding (and a 9 hour drive away) and I said if it's still available after the big day I'd jump on it. It sold that weekend.


This is a 2015.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

r3210vw said:


> This is a 2015.


Sticker on the GTI in the showroom of my dealer here in Canada is still $38,000 or $28,500 in USD.... no dealer cash on them either.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

$15K for a $20K MSRP 2016 Jetta S 1.4T automatic still sounds enticing, even though it's an old design and poverty-spec.
That's a used car price for a new car. 

What is stopping me?

Tell me.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Lwize said:


> $15K for a $20K MSRP 2016 Jetta S 1.4T automatic still sounds enticing, even though it's an old design and poverty-spec.
> That's a used car price for a new car.
> 
> What is stopping me?
> ...


New engine or not, it's still a horrendous car in that base trim. You'd be taking a significant downgrade compared to a MkV Rabbit. Do you really need a new car payment for better fuel economy?


----------



## spongebob_squarepants (Jul 4, 2001)

Those are some tempting GTI prices for sure. Still quite a few GTI's on lots here, along with Jettas & Passats. 

FWIW, I never see more than a few Golfs on the lot at any given time, they just seem to trickle in...

Lousy timing, as I'm stuck with 5 payments remaining on my '13 Passat lease. I wonder if they'd eat the payments to get me into something else... :sly:


----------



## r3210vw (Mar 26, 2005)

spongebob_squarepants said:


> Those are some tempting GTI prices for sure. Still quite a few GTI's on lots here, along with Jettas & Passats.
> 
> FWIW, I never see more than a few Golfs on the lot at any given time, they just seem to trickle in...
> 
> Lousy timing, as I'm stuck with 5 payments remaining on my '13 Passat lease. I wonder if they'd eat the payments to get me into something else... :sly:


Work on the cap cost for a new GTI/Golf first without mentioning you want out of your 13 Passat. There's a $350 fee for early lease return.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

Lwize said:


> $15K for a $20K MSRP 2016 Jetta S 1.4T automatic still sounds enticing, even though it's an old design and poverty-spec.
> That's a used car price for a new car.
> 
> What is stopping me?
> ...





Rabbit5GTI said:


> New engine or not, it's still a horrendous car in that base trim. You'd be taking a significant downgrade compared to a MkV Rabbit. Do you really need a new car payment for better fuel economy?


I completely disagree; the car is far from 'horrendous.' This summer we leased a 2015 Jetta S (with the, gulp, 2.slow!) with technology package and I'm completely happy with the car. Here's the common TCL complaints about the model partnered with my actual experience with the car:
- TCL: The 2.0 is slow and underpowered. Reality: with the manual transmission the car can be downright peppy around town. Ninety percent of the driving we do is city driving; 40MPH or less, stop and go, light traffic. The car can nip at others easily, but of course will never win stop light races. But we're both 41, so that doesn't ever happen. There's nice but muted growl to the engine and the car is VERY quiet. The gearing is especially good for the 0 - 40MPH run. Yes it runs out of steam on an on-ramp, but it never feels dangerous, just a bit slower than I'd prefer. Coming from a Saab 9-3 2.0T (this car replaced it) there has been a big adjustment to make when merging, but you get used to it soon enough. 
- TCL: the interior is awful. Reality: it's not that bad. Yes, my MKV GLI is an A4 compared to the base Jetta, but the plastics are pleasant enough, panel gaps are tight, door close with a substantial thunk, the switchgear all snicks into place nicely and with the upgraded steering wheel, gauges, and touchscreen radio (part of the technology package), the car *never* feels poverty spec. The only thing that truly bothers me with the interior is the plastic checkerboard dash and door inlays where it's apparent it would be silver or metal or wood in other models. 
- TCL: the MPGs aren't good. Reality: we took the car on a 1600+ mile roadtrip and regularly saw 39 MPG. 
- TCL: it's such a boring design. Reality: yes, it's a snooze to look at. 
- TCL: it's boring to drive. Reality: I enjoy wringing what I can out of the little car. The 5 speed is exceptionally nice and in some regards shifts nicer than my MKV GLI 6 speed. The IRS rear suspension (now standard on all Jettas) makes it enjoyable in the twisties, but the 15 inch wheel/tires hold it back. It's still a nimble little car. The lower weight compared to my GLI actually makes it feel more tossable. The electric steering is also a huge improvement over what my MKV has. It's too light for my tastes around town, but weights up decently as speed builds.

So all this applies to the 2.0 and if I'd known the 1.4T was coming out we would have definitely waited. Again, it's definitely not a performance model/car, but I *never* feel like I'm in a penalty box car. In fact, there's a certain smugness I've acheived knowing that it's a pretty damn nice car for the money. It's a great commuter and the lease price was super low and will allow us to apply it to our business as a company car with minimal financial impact.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> I completely disagree; the car is far from 'horrendous.' This summer we leased a 2015 Jetta S (with the, gulp, 2.slow!) with technology package and I'm completely happy with the car. Here's the common TCL complaints about the model partnered with my actual experience with the car:
> - TCL: The 2.0 is slow and underpowered. Reality: with the manual transmission the car can be downright peppy around town. Ninety percent of the driving we do is city driving; 40MPH or less, stop and go, light traffic. The car can nip at others easily, but of course will never win stop light races. But we're both 41, so that doesn't ever happen. There's nice but muted growl to the engine and the car is VERY quiet. The gearing is especially good for the 0 - 40MPH run. Yes it runs out of steam on an on-ramp, but it never feels dangerous, just a bit slower than I'd prefer. Coming from a Saab 9-3 2.0T (this car replaced it) there has been a big adjustment to make when merging, but you get used to it soon enough.
> - TCL: the interior is awful. Reality: it's not that bad. Yes, my MKV GLI is an A4 compared to the base Jetta, but the plastics are pleasant enough, panel gaps are tight, door close with a substantial thunk, the switchgear all snicks into place nicely and with the upgraded steering wheel, gauges, and touchscreen radio (part of the technology package), the car *never* feels poverty spec. The only thing that truly bothers me with the interior is the plastic checkerboard dash and door inlays where it's apparent it would be silver or metal or wood in other models.
> - TCL: the MPGs aren't good. Reality: we took the car on a 1600+ mile roadtrip and regularly saw 39 MPG.
> ...


That's fine and your opinion, but I completely disagree. I had one as a loaner for a couple weeks when my old TDI was in the shop. I took it through the entire ringer of my daily commute, and I wouldn't wish it upon anyone. Keep in mind this is in the 'S' trim. Maybe in the higher trims, it's tolerable. But again, a 1.4T isn't going to be enough to immediately transform it into an acceptable daily driver, in my opinion.


----------



## CostcoPizza (Jan 20, 2008)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> New engine or not, it's still a horrendous car in that base trim. You'd be taking a significant downgrade compared to a MkV Rabbit. Do you really need a new car payment for better fuel economy?


If this was 2011 I'd agree, but since then VW has slowly upgraded the car to a very decent level.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

CostcoPizza said:


> If this was 2011 I'd agree, but since then VW has slowly upgraded the car to a very decent level.


The one I drove was a '13.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> The one I drove was a '13.


So no IRS, the original gauges, the original plasticky steering wheel, rear drum brakes, no touchscreen radio (or keyless start or rearview camera), and since it was a loaner I'm guessing it was an automatic? If so, there's really no reason to compare it with the 2016 as it's far more than just a new engine. 

I will go on record to say that I wouldn't consider the S with the 2.0 with an auto trans. The manual transmission makes for a much more lively car.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW believes 10-20 people were responsible for emissions rigging, report says*



> HAMBURG (Reuters) -- Volkswagen believes that up to 20 people were involved in its rigging of diesel-engine emissions tests, a person familiar with the matter told Reuters.
> 
> "The number of people responsible will not be confined to a handful," the person said, declining to be identified because the matter is supposed to be confidential. "This should be a two-digit number in the range of between 10 and 20."
> 
> ...


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> The one I drove was a '13.


So yours didn't have IRS and the facelift.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> So no IRS, the original gauges, the original plasticky steering wheel, rear drum brakes, no touchscreen radio (or keyless start or rearview camera), and since it was a loaner I'm guessing it was an automatic? If so, there's really no reason to compare it with the 2016 as it's far more than just a new engine.
> 
> I will go on record to say that I wouldn't consider the S with the 2.0 with an auto trans. The manual transmission makes for a much more lively car.


He asked for opinions and I gave it.

If the '16 is really getting an IRS again, then that does change things a little bit. 

However, you still get the plasticky steering wheel, ****ty cloth seats (not the nice ones that were in MkVs). My point is, there are still other options out there in the price range that are better. I don't expect my opinion to be one that's agreed upon universally in this thread, but it is still valid.


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> The one I drove was a '13.


Night and day from the '14+ TSI cars. You can buy a new Jetta now with either the 1.4T or 1.8T engines, IRS, etc, for very good prices. Totally competitive for the dollar with the other alternatives out there on the market. Stronger in some areas, weaker in others. But very much segment competitive for the real world transaction price.

Had the '14 TSI/IRS car come out back in 2011, you'd have never heard all the moaning that beat up the Jetta's rep. But by the time VW got the car up to snuff, people's minds were made up based on the '11.

My '15 Jetta SE was superior to my current Golf MK7, for instance, in some ways. Golf better in others, but it certainly doesn't destroy the Jetta. Marginally better depending on what your preferences are. Since you mention cloth, the Jetta actually had tougher, more durable cloth than my GSW which has seat fabric that feels a bit like Wal-Mart athletic shorts.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

spockcat said:


> *VW believes 10-20 people were responsible for emissions rigging, report says*


We will never know for sure but I am doubtful this list will ever really comprise everyone that knew. Maybe "we all know Hans knew about the issue but without an e-mail trail and interest in crushing him there isn't a benefit to canning him like the main 20". By self policing and getting rid of a group immediately and declaring the problem people removed the chances of outsiders getting as involved goes down. Give them a severance, tell them to shut up and escort them to the door.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

syncro87 said:


> Night and day from the '14+ TSI cars. You can buy a new Jetta now with either the 1.4T or 1.8T engines, IRS, etc, for very good prices. Totally competitive for the dollar with the other alternatives out there on the market. Stronger in some areas, weaker in others. But very much segment competitive for the real world transaction price.
> 
> Had the '14 TSI/IRS car come out back in 2011, you'd have never heard all the moaning that beat up the Jetta's rep. But by the time VW got the car up to snuff, people's minds were made up based on the '11.
> 
> My '15 Jetta SE was superior to my current Golf MK7, for instance, in some ways. Golf better in others, but it certainly doesn't destroy the Jetta. Marginally better depending on what your preferences are. Since you mention cloth, the Jetta actually had tougher, more durable cloth than my GSW which has seat fabric that feels a bit like Wal-Mart athletic shorts.


Okay, okay. Jesus, so many people coming to defend the honor of a Jetta S 

I'm aware of the slight improvements on the inside of the new ones - but it still doesn't strike me as a place that's worth spending that kind of money on.

For me, a Mazda3 or even a Focus or Forte offer much better overall value. I will say that the Jetta does take the cake if you need rear leg room. However, then it begs the question as to why the midsizers aren't being considered.

Anyway, back to ranting about diesel.


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 7, 1999)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Okay, okay. Jesus, so many people coming to defend the honor of a Jetta S
> 
> I'm aware of the slight improvements on the inside of the new ones - but it still doesn't strike me as a place that's worth spending that kind of money on.
> 
> ...


 I won't defend the Jetta S.. I will defend the GLI b/c it gets a bad rap for what's otherwise a nice daily driving car that is pretty fun to drive. 

Resume TCL wenching about TDI scandal.


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> I'm aware of the slight improvements on the inside of the new ones - but it still doesn't strike me as a place that's worth spending that kind of money on.
> 
> For me, a Mazda3 or even a Focus or Forte offer much better overall value. I will say that the Jetta does take the cake if you need rear leg room. However, then it begs the question as to why the midsizers aren't being considered.


The interior is definitely still pretty cheap. The three you mentioned win in that area. Jetta brings other things to the table. Far quieter, best powertrain of the bunch, roomier than most. Mazda, road noise, small back seat. Focus rear seat is useless, and you're stuck with the DCT if you want auto. Forte...decent, but iffy EPS feel, questionable resale value. All of the cars you mentioned have significant weak points, too. 

I wasn't trying to assert that the Jetta was the best car ever. Merely that it's totally competitive in current form, depending on your priorities, and that it is unfairly (today, not then) given a bad rap based on the '11 version. For instance, the horrible road noise turned me off the 3. I drove it three times ('15) before I bought a Jetta, trying to make myself like it. That and the subpar rear seat took it off my list despite it's strengths in other areas.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> I won't defend the Jetta S.. *I will defend the GLI* b/c it gets a bad rap for what's otherwise a nice daily driving car that is pretty fun to drive.
> 
> Resume TCL wenching about TDI scandal.


Oh yes, agree completely...improvements to the base model or not, it's a completely different car. Hell, if my wife told me she wanted to get back into a manual transmission, I'd be looking at a GLI on the cheap for her. (If some of these stories of 7-8k off MSRP are true, at least)


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Double-V said:


> India? Seriously???? They're worried about NOx in a place like India where everyone has BO and they throw dead people and animals into water bodies????


What an appropriate response to someone mentioning the nation of India!

I was hoping I'd find a website where I could get both VW news AND xenophobic bigotry all at once. Hooray!


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

syncro87 said:


> The interior is definitely still pretty cheap.


What makes the Jetta-VI receive (and earn) so much hate is that it's such a step-down in quality compared to past models, and also compared to the rest of the present VW line-up. Relative to everything from a CC to a Beetle, the Jetta is made CHEAP. This from a present Jetta driver who had a CC before, and his wife has a Beetle.

And I can't believe how much more CHEAP the Jetta S is compared to my SE. Having had one as a dealer loaner 2x now... ick.

I don't know about the current Mazda3, but my 2008 MS3 was an Audi compared to the current Jetta. (While under warranty, that is.) And I thought the MS3 was a let-down after my Mk-IV GTI! I guess everyone's racing to the bottom these days.


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

spockcat said:


> *VW believes 10-20 people were responsible for emissions rigging, report says*


Watch the wording of what VW releases. It may have involved 20 people who were hands on doing the actual dirty work, but the real question is who put them up to it, and who found out later and looked the other way?


----------



## Maroon (Apr 10, 2014)

The only thing wrong with the 1.4T Jetta S is the steelies w/hubcaps. Great car for the price, especially with the extra 2k loyalty bonus.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Maroon said:


> The only thing wrong with the 1.4T Jetta S is the steelies w/hubcaps. Great car for the price, especially with the extra 2k loyalty bonus.


Interior still looks on par with a $15K car. (price for this model on Cars.com)


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> We will never know for sure but I am doubtful this list will ever really comprise everyone that knew.


Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually over 100 people knew, but 80-90 of them have sufficient plausible deniability (only on conf calls, in-person meetings, nothing in writing) to claim it wasn't them, and they didn't know _how_ the other team got the car to pass emissions.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

syncro87 said:


> The interior is definitely still pretty cheap. The three you mentioned win in that area. Jetta brings other things to the table. Far quieter, best powertrain of the bunch, roomier than most. Mazda, road noise, small back seat. Focus rear seat is useless, and you're stuck with the DCT if you want auto. Forte...decent, but iffy EPS feel, questionable resale value. All of the cars you mentioned have significant weak points, too.
> 
> I wasn't trying to assert that the Jetta was the best car ever. Merely that it's totally competitive in current form, depending on your priorities, and that it is unfairly (today, not then) given a bad rap based on the '11 version. For instance, the horrible road noise turned me off the 3. I drove it three times ('15) before I bought a Jetta, trying to make myself like it. That and the subpar rear seat took it off my list despite it's strengths in other areas.


I'd be interested in a cheap discounted Jetta 1.4T automatic - not manual - as a DD. 

The cloth interior is awash with bland gray, and the seat material looks third-world. 
But to avoid hot, sticky leatherette, the base S model is the only way to go. 
The SE comes with cloth too - on paper at least - but dealers don't stock them. 
Instead, they offer the SE with Tech, which changes the seating to leatherette. 

Ugh. Anything to avoid the Civic CVT. 
But is sinking down to a cheap, base Jetta necessary?


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

Lwize said:


> I'd be interested in a cheap discounted Jetta 1.4T automatic - not manual - as a DD.
> 
> The cloth interior is awash with bland gray, and the seat material looks third-world.
> But to avoid hot, sticky leatherette, the base S model is the only way to go.
> ...


I'm not sure if you were trying to write a poem, but that's how I read this.


----------



## firstorbit84 (Feb 25, 2006)

Where's turbio? What was his death estimate? 
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/56337dd2e4b063179911fd1b


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

Lwize said:


> I'd be interested in a cheap discounted Jetta 1.4T automatic - not manual - as a DD.
> 
> The cloth interior is awash with bland gray, and the seat material looks third-world.
> But to avoid hot, sticky leatherette, the base S model is the only way to go.
> ...


Depending on what your local inventory is like I would think they would deal on anything but the GLI. My local dealer (whose inventory I just checked thanks to this thread :banghead: ) currently has 44 Jetta TSI in different trim packages. I don't know if you have seen the Jetta "Sport" Edition, but they are pretty sharp looking IMO and have some nice standard features.


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

firstorbit84 said:


> Where's turbio? What was his death estimate?
> http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/56337dd2e4b063179911fd1b


I sure wish studies like these would also include emissions from unchecked diesel tractors, semi trucks, locomotives, ships, and all of the gasoline powered small equipment used for lawn and gardening. Although important, it would be nice to use as a barometer for comparisons sake. Feels like they may be making a mountain over a mole hill.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

firstorbit84 said:


> Where's turbio? What was his death estimate?
> http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/56337dd2e4b063179911fd1b


yes, 59 people will die from this because VW diesel car's are the biggest and worst source of that particular chemical. let's make a huge deal out of these additional nameless and indirect 59 people who will die this year instead of the ones who die because there are larger and more widely found sources of that particular chemical throughout the US that do not have to worry about EPA saying anything about it.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

firstorbit84 said:


> Where's turbio? What was his death estimate?
> http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/56337dd2e4b063179911fd1b


From the article:



> "We all have risk factors in our lives, and [excess emissions] is another small risk factor," study author Steven Barrett of MIT told Environmental Research Web. "If you take into account the additional risk due to the excess Volkswagen emissions, then roughly 60 people have died or will die early, and on average, *a decade or more early*."


Really? These 59-60 people will die at least 10 years earlier than they would have died if VW hadn't cheated on emissions? I can understand if this author had said it was hastening someone's death by 3, 6 or maybe even 12 *months*. But 10 *years*? Are these 60 people breathing the emissions directly from the tailpipes to cause their nearly immediate deaths?


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

59 deaths spread over 11 million cars?

Margin of error is larger. It's effectively zero. 

There are more confirmed deaths from hanging out on TCL.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Now this thread is back on track.


----------



## spathotan (Jun 14, 2013)

Lwize said:


> 59 deaths spread over 11 million cars?
> 
> Margin of error is larger. It's effectively zero.
> 
> There are more confirmed deaths from hanging out on TCL.


:thumbup::laugh:


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

If I got a Jetta with hot & sticky leatherette seats, who here volunteers to dry off my back and buttocks? :wave:


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

Happy Halloween, everyone.


----------



## Oval Baja (Feb 21, 2007)

umpkin:


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

Oval Baja said:


> umpkin:


I was going to see how the first one was received before posting that one, but I see you beat me to it. 

Happy Halloween, everyone.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

McBanagon said:


> I was going to see how the first one was received before posting that one, but I see you beat me to it.
> 
> Happy Halloween, everyone.


Every trick-or-treater I get tonight, gets a bottle of this :vampire:


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

WannaCorrado said:


> Saw this on the bidding block today...
> 
> YR MAKE MODEL ENG BODY TRN PS PB AC TOP 4X4 ODOMETER COLOR PRICE
> 2013 VOLKSWAGEN PASS HIGHLN 4DT 4DSN A PS PB AC SR 4X2 46,748 GLACIER $11,250


I found a 2005 Passat TDI for $1300, went immediately...
There was another one for $2500, lower miles, also sold right away...

2010 Jetta TDI Loyalty edition, picture showed an MK5 body, but they wanted
$5400 for that. It was available, I could not swing it, and it's gone now.



Double-V said:


> India? Seriously???? They're worried about NOx in a place like India where everyone has BO and they throw dead people and animals into water bodies????


They also bathe in that water, and it's not the entire country. 
Their people are also victimized by their government. They are
spending billions on their MARS program, and letting their people
suffer, just like most other 3rd world countries. 



Hajduk said:


> So yours didn't have IRS and the facelift.


I have two 2013 Jettas, "S" & TDI, neither have IRS, but you can convert easily enough.

TDI has the wrapped wheel, "S" does not, and both have the hard
dash, not the soft like 2014 and up got. Still, can covert, if you
want the work...


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

Welp.










Brief:



> WASHINGTON – Today, EPA is issuing a second notice of violation (NOV) of the Clean Air Act (CAA) to Volkswagen AG, Audi AG and Volkswagen Group of America, Inc. This NOV is also being issued to Porsche AG and Porsche Cars North America. These five companies are collectively referred to as Volkswagen (VW). The NOV alleges that VW developed and installed a defeat device in certain VW, Audi and Porsche light duty diesel vehicles equipped with 3.0 liter engines for model years (MY) 2014 through 2016 that increases emissions of nitrogen oxide (NOx) up to nine times EPA’s standard. The vehicles covered by today’s NOV are the diesel versions of: the 2014 VW Touareg, the 2015 Porsche Cayenne, and the 2016 Audi A6 Quattro, A7 Quattro, A8, A8L, and Q5.


And source:
http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpres...4a45a5661216e66c85257ef10061867b!OpenDocument


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

ByronLLN said:


> Welp.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think this surprises anyone.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

I there I was thinking I wasted my time making a GIF with Halloween over.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

spockcat said:


> I don't think this surprises anyone.


I'm mildly surprised that they didn't speak up before the government had the opportunity to out them. Just makes them look worse.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

curious if they ran test on pre '14s...


----------



## TangoRed (Sep 7, 2005)

Man, 3.0L V6 vehicles too? Sucks to suck.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

rich! said:


> curious if they ran test on pre '14s...


There seem to be a lot of missing cars in this list, unless my recollection of V6 TDI availability is just hazy (likely).


----------



## CadiGTi (Mar 1, 2007)

*Audi: No Truth in Engineering*



ByronLLN said:


> Welp.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So when is pulling their defunct tag line? New Tagline; "Audi, No truth in Engineering" ?


----------



## VWRedux (Jun 3, 2009)

*And so it begins!!!!*

*Australians Hit VW, Audi with Class Suit*
Published: 3:20 pm, Monday, 2 November 2015










Looks as if the Aussies are wasting no time! According to their AAP News, Australian car owners are taking Volkswagen and Audi to court in an attempt to secure potentially billions of dollars in compensation over the carmakers' emissions-rigging scandal. An estimated 91,000 Australians could be covered under two class action lawsuits filed by law firm Bannister Law in the Federal Court. The group's principal Charles Bannister said there was a strong case for the owners of affected diesel vehicles to claim a full refund or other compensation under consumer law. The value of car owners' vehicles has been diminished through no fault of their own and people should be compensated,' principal Charles Bannister told AAP on Monday. Under Australian consumer law we believe that people are entitled to ask for the recovery of the full purchase price or alternatively a diminution in the value of the vehicle. It's the first legal action taken against Volkswagen's local subsidiaries since they revealed in October that more than 100,000 diesel cars, including the popular Golf and Polo models, had been sold in Australia with software that manipulated pollution controls. More than 11 million vehicles globally have been identified as being part of the fraud scam, and the German auto giant is facing numerous lawsuits worldwide. Local claimants will argue that Volkswagen engaged in misleading and deceptive conduct towards consumers and breached statutory guarantees in installing the secret software in its cars from 2008 to 2014. There's been admissions that there have been cheating devices placed in the software of the car, designed to cheat emissions testing,' Mr Bannister said. What that means is the vehicles should never have obtained compliance under the Australian design rules under the Motor Standards Act, and should never have been offered for sale on the Australian market. Volkswagen Australia said it was inappropriate to comment on impending legal matters. VGA understands that this has been a difficult time and apologies for any disappointment and inconvenience felt by our customers,' a spokesman said. We will do everything we can to fix this problem and regain the trust of our customers. The car maker also reassured customers the vehicles were still technically safe to drive and that customers wouldn't bear the cost of an announced voluntary recall. The local branch is still waiting on a technical solution from its German head office to implement the first steps in its nationwide recall.

AAP
- See more at: http://www.skynews.com.au/news/nati...class-suit.html#sthash.3Ql70SNm.l97fExiG.dpuf


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

ByronLLN said:


> There seem to be a lot of missing cars in this list, unless my recollection of V6 TDI availability is just hazy (likely).


I think 2009 or 2010 was the first year for the Touareg V6 TDI in the USA.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Lwize said:


> 59 deaths spread over 11 million cars?
> 
> Margin of error is larger. It's effectively zero.
> 
> There are more confirmed deaths from hanging out on TCL.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

ByronLLN said:


> Welp.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


opcorn:


----------



## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/02/vw-v6-tdi-diesel-emissions-defeat-epa/

*EPA discovers defeat device in more VW TDI engines*
In a sternly worded letter, the United States Environmental Protection Agency has issued a new set of allegations against Volkswagen claiming that so-called emissions defeat software has been found in the company's 3.0-liter TDI V6 diesel engines. This is a completely different engine than the 2.0 TDI that has already been identified as an emissions cheater. In addition to VW, the EPA has included Audi and Porsche in this notification, as the non-compliant engine has been used in vehicles from all three manufacturers from model years 2014 through 2016.

The EPA claims that cars equipped with the 3.0 TDI engine know when they are being tested for emissions, and their on-board computers switch into a mode designed to pass the stringent requirements in the United States for diesel exhaust. Vehicles sold in the United States with this engine include the 2014 VW Touareg, 2015 Porsche Cayenne, and 2015 Audi A6, A7, A8L and Q5. The EPA says there are 10,000 vehicles currently on the road with this second defeat device, along with an unknown number of 2016 models either on dealer lots or in the driveways of consumers.

According to the EPA, VW's 3.0-liter TDI, like the 2.0 TDI that was found to circumvent US regulations, has code in its computer specifically written to intentionally put the vehicle's engine into a mode that allows it to meet exhaust requirements. When the vehicle is unhooked from testing equipment, it will go back into a mode that emits nine-times higher nitrogen oxide emissions than is allowable under US law.

"VW has once again failed its obligation to comply with the law that protects clean air for all Americans," said Cynthia Giles, Assistant Administrator for the Office for EPA's Enforcement and Compliance Assurance. "All companies should be playing by the same rules. EPA, with our state, and federal partners, will continue to investigate these serious matters, to secure the benefits of the Clean Air Act, ensure a level playing field for responsible businesses, and to ensure consumers get the environmental performance they expect."

Richard Corey, Executive Officer of the California Air Resources Board, said in a statement, "Today we are requiring VW Group to address these issues. This is a very serious public health matter. ARB and EPA will continue to conduct a rigorous investigation that includes testing more vehicles until all of the facts are out in the open."

This story will be updated as new information becomes available.


----------



## rlfletch (Jun 11, 2000)

How could the Q7 possibly be dodging this bullet?


----------



## jannikt (Sep 25, 2015)

FastGTi said:


> http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/02/vw-v6-tdi-diesel-emissions-defeat-epa/
> 
> *EPA discovers defeat device in more VW TDI engines*
> In a sternly worded letter, the United States Environmental Protection Agency has issued a new set of allegations against Volkswagen claiming that so-called emissions defeat software has been found in the company's 3.0-liter TDI V6 diesel engines. This is a completely different engine than the 2.0 TDI that has already been identified as an emissions cheater. In addition to VW, the EPA has included Audi and Porsche in this notification, as the non-compliant engine has been used in vehicles from all three manufacturers from model years 2014 through 2016.
> ...


This is glaring evidence that cheating was a pervasive, institutionalized process at VW, that spread over years with full management support. EPA, CARB and DOJ should go after VW to the full extent possible under law, including full $11b in fines. If this drives VW into bankruptcy, fine with me, they deserve it. Somebody else will pick-up the leftovers. If the German government decides to bail them out, shame on Merkel, but let German taxpayers foot the bill.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

rlfletch said:


> How could the Q7 possibly be dodging this bullet?


Not tested yet?


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

So, let's recap:

*Every single TDI diesel engine that VW has sold here since at least 2007 is in non-compliance* with the EPA, and VW covered it up.

Sure, diesel will bounce back! It has to! It's the FUTURE!


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

jannikt said:


> If the German government decides to bail them out, shame on Merkel


They don't have a choice, VW is something like 9x larger to the German economy than GM is to the US, and we wouldn't let GM go because it would be catastrophe. Germany is the stalwart of the EU right now, and if their economy falters and Germany can't help support laggards like Greece, it isn't terribly far fetched to suggest the whole EU goes belly up. Wars get started over less.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

jannikt said:


> This is glaring evidence that cheating was a pervasive, institutionalized process at VW, that spread over years with full management support. EPA, CARB and DOJ should go after VW to the full extent possible under law, including full $11b in fines. If this drives VW into bankruptcy, fine with me, they deserve it. Somebody else will pick-up the leftovers. If the German government decides to bail them out, shame on Merkel, but let German taxpayers foot the bill.


if only our government had been this vehement in it's prosecution of GM for hiding their knowledge about the faulty ignition cylinders.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

jnm2.0t said:


> They don't have a choice, VW is something like 9x larger to the German economy than GM is to the US, and we wouldn't let GM go because it would be catastrophe. Germany is the stalwart of the EU right now, and if their economy falters and Germany can't help support laggards like Greece, it isn't terribly far fetched to suggest the whole EU goes belly up. Wars get started over less.


The question is, do they sell out to FCA or hope for big Euros from Berlin?


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

Remember those old GM passenger car diesels everyone used to blame for "killing" diesel in the US?

Yeah, not anymore.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Maximum_Download said:


> So, let's recap:
> 
> *Every single TDI diesel engine that VW has sold here since at least 2007 is in non-compliance* with the EPA, and VW covered it up.
> 
> Sure, diesel will bounce back! It has to! It's the FUTURE!


To be fair, nobody saw this coming. Anyone who pretends they did simply was looking for an excuse to not like diesel cars at the time. 



jnm2.0t said:


> They don't have a choice, VW is something like 9x larger to the German economy than GM is to the US, and we wouldn't let GM go because it would be catastrophe. Germany is the stalwart of the EU right now, and if their economy falters and Germany can't help support laggards like Greece, it isn't terribly far fetched to suggest the whole EU goes belly up. Wars get started over less.


Very much this.

GM going belly-up here would have been disastrous, but VW as compared to Germany? It's not like 1949 when VW was 49% of their GDP, but it's one of the biggest (if not _the_ biggest) slices of that German GDP pie.


----------



## intercedeGLI (Sep 8, 2002)

Wasn't Matthias Muller promoted to VWAG CEO from Porsche on the very premise that he wasn't connected to this scandal? And now a model from Porsche, produced while he was the companies leader, has been identified. 

Is Muller's defense going to be that Porsche just took the engine and electronics from Volkswagen and plopped it into one of their cars without knowing what was in it? Doesn't sound very Porsche-like.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Sporin said:


> Remember those old GM passenger car diesels everyone used to blame for "killing" diesel in the US?
> 
> Yeah, not anymore.


Now the VW faithful just blame the evil EPA.


----------



## jepva (Feb 10, 2011)

intercedeGLI said:


> Wasn't Matthias Muller promoted to VWAG CEO from Porsche on the very premise that he wasn't connected to this scandal? And now a model from Porsche, produced while he was the companies leader, has been identified.
> 
> Is Muller's defense going to be that Porsche just took the engine and electronics from Volkswagen and plopped it into one of their cars without knowing what was in it? Doesn't sound very Porsche-like.


What is sad and troubling about this whole story is that the executive's and senior management aren't taking responsibility, saying it was their engineers. We all know what REALLY happened, which is that unrealistic pressures for time constraints and profits from senior management and investors forced the engineers to make these decisions. 

Engineer: Uh, boss, there's no way we can get this diesel engine to performance at X while getting XX MPG's by the current timeline using $XXXX dollars.

Manager/Executive: I don't care, just get it done, we have Q3 earnings to beat!


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

2015 Porsche Cayenne now included.


----------



## intercedeGLI (Sep 8, 2002)

jepva said:


> What is sad and troubling about this whole story is that the executive's and senior management aren't taking responsibility, saying it was their engineers. We all know what REALLY happened, which is that unrealistic pressures for time constraints and profits from senior management and investors forced the engineers to make these decisions.
> 
> Engineer: Uh, boss, there's no way we can get this diesel engine to performance at X while getting XX MPG's by the current timeline using $XXXX dollars.
> 
> Manager/Executive: I don't care, just get it done, we have Q3 earnings to beat!


Seems very likely. I can't imagine a competent set of engineers purposely breaking the law without being told something along those lines. 

I wonder when we can expect the resignation of Muller and Stadler (Audi CEO). Winterkorn deserves company on his golden parachute ride.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

I somewhere that this whole mess in the end would run VW $87B.

But with more engines affected that's likely to top *$100B*!!

I also think before this is over their gassers will be found to also be cheating, at least the really big performance engines. But we will see.


Found it: http://money.cnn.com/2015/10/02/news/companies/volkswagen-scandal-bp-credit-suisse/


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

jannikt said:


> This is glaring evidence that cheating was a pervasive, institutionalized process at VW, that spread over years with full management support. EPA, CARB and DOJ should go after VW to the full extent possible under law, including full $11b in fines. If this drives VW into bankruptcy, fine with me, they deserve it. Somebody else will pick-up the leftovers. If the German government decides to bail them out, shame on Merkel, but let German taxpayers foot the bill.


So you registered a new user name just to post stuff like this? Lonely down in Cincinnati? :laugh:


----------



## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

VW is ****ed.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

Aonarch said:


> VW is ****ed.


Seems that way. Ugh.


----------



## intercedeGLI (Sep 8, 2002)

[email protected] said:


> So you registered a new user name just to post stuff like this? Lonely down in Cincinnati? :laugh:


Is that alt-account wrong though? Now we've got cars that were big enough and expensive enough to support DEF injection and VW has again been caught breaking the law. 

Nothing about this situation adds up anymore, except to say Volkswagen found a way to shortcut regulations and they made use of it at every opportunity that presented itself. It was understandable (bad word choice, but it's what I got) that they did this with the 4-cylinder appliance grade low margin cars. There wasn't enough padding in the price to support DEF. But that idea just got blown out of the water by an SUV that started at $70,000.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

DJMRDARK said:


> I somewhere that this whole mess in the end would run VW $87B.
> 
> But with more engines affected that's likely to top *$100B*!!
> 
> ...


from the article:


> Credit Suisse (CS) estimates that the total cost to the company could hit 78 billion euros ($87 billion) in a worst case scenario. That's about 60% more than the cost of the Deepwater Horizon spill to BP


60% more than BP's oil disaster that ruined an entire ecosystem. how is this even right? this seems more like inflammatory journalism than accurate number crunching. worse than what GM did? that's iffy at this point. worse than what BP did? you've got to be ****ing kidding.


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

Aonarch said:


> VW is ****ed.


I'm not finding any reason to laugh at the situation except for those who predicted early on that this was no big deal and that it would blow over and be forgotten about. I knew from day one this was going to snowball on VWAG. 

Still feel bad for all the customers who are stuck with their cars while VW contemplates how to rectify the issue and also for the employees who will be affected long term because of poor decisions made at the engineering level that they had nothing to do with.

>8^)
ER


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

GoHomeBroke said:


> from the article:
> 
> 60% more than BP's oil disaster that ruined an entire ecosystem. how is this even right? this seems more like inflammatory journalism than accurate number crunching. worse than what GM did? that's iffy at this point. worse than what BP did? you've got to be ****ing kidding.


The industry is different and in this case, we are talking about willingly defrauding end customers.

Also, this was BEFORE this latest revelation that the 3.0L V6 is included. SO we go back to my original statement: None of VW's USDM TDIs were compliant, for nearly 10 years.

And they lied about it.

Twice.

And got caught.

Twice.

THis is incompetance on an entirely new scale. This makes the failure of GM and their bankruptcy look like it was the result of Harvard Business School grads.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> from the article:
> 
> 60% more than BP's oil disaster that ruined an entire ecosystem. how is this even right? this seems more like inflammatory journalism than accurate number crunching. worse than what GM did? that's iffy at this point. worse than what BP did? you've got to be ****ing kidding.


Keep in mind this was concerning 11M vehicles, so the cost is spread out among them, plus fines, lawsiuts, reimbursing for lost value, repairs/retrofits, etc. With the 3.0 motors in the mix this will be FAR higher.


----------



## Acedia (Feb 4, 2003)

GoHomeBroke said:


> from the article:
> 
> 60% more than BP's oil disaster that ruined an entire ecosystem. how is this even right? this seems more like inflammatory journalism than accurate number crunching. worse than what GM did? that's iffy at this point. worse than what BP did? you've got to be ****ing kidding.


Negligence vs Fraud


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

Now that VAG's DEF 3.0 V6s are caught up in this, any further tests been done on M-B's, BMW's, and VM Motori's (Jeep, Ram) equivalents? They passed okay, right, and with no defeat mode?


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Sporin said:


> Remember those old GM passenger car diesels everyone used to blame for "killing" diesel in the US?
> 
> Yeah, not anymore.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

If I didn't live in CA I'd be plotting snatching up a Cayenne Diesel for a song when the values tank. :laugh:


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Mike! said:


> Now that VAG's DEF 3.0 V6s are caught up in this, any further tests been done on M-B's, BMW's, and VM Motori's (Jeep, Ram) equivalents? They passed okay, right, and with no defeat mode?


VW is alone in this so far.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

Mike! said:


> Now that VAG's DEF 3.0 V6s are caught up in this, any further tests been done on M-B's, BMW's, and VM Motori's (Jeep, Ram) equivalents? They passed okay, right, and with no defeat mode?


Some Benz and BMW cars have been tested, I think. I don't know if the same is true of FCA's 6, but so far, so good.


----------



## makasay (Apr 19, 2013)

Shomegrown is not going to be happy :laugh:


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

Really at this point they deserve whatever they get. We're now way beyond the simple too expensive and time consuming to fix. The 3.0 ltr tdi engines didn't even come into the American market until 2011MY. So years after the 4cyl tdi engines and with plenty of margin for additional costs to be passed on if that's what it took.

No what we had was VW wanting best in class acceleration and real world fuel economy, and were willing to cheat to get there.

Ridiculous, and just shows an absolute disregard and open contempt for the EPA and for Americans.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

VW is denying the recent claims that the 3.0TDI engine has the cheat code software installed:

http://www.carscoops.com/2015/11/epa-accuses-vw-denies-that-v6-tdi-has.html

VW's statement:
_“The United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) informed Volkswagen Aktiengesellschaft on Monday that vehicles with V6 TDI engines had a software function which had not been adequately described in the application process. Volkswagen AG wishes to emphasize that no software has been installed in the 3-liter V6 diesel power units to alter emissions characteristics in a forbidden manner. Volkswagen will cooperate fully with the EPA clarify this matter in its entirety.”_


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

vwwtchr said:


> Really at this point they deserve whatever they get. We're now way beyond the simple too expensive and time consuming to fix. The 3.0 ltr tdi engines didn't even come into the American market until 2011MY. So years after the 4cyl tdi engines and with plenty of margin for additional costs to be passed on if that's what it took.
> 
> No what we had was VW wanting best in class acceleration and real world fuel economy, and were willing to cheat to get there.
> 
> Ridiculous, and just shows an absolute disregard and open contempt for the EPA and for Americans.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Maximum_Download said:


> The industry is different and in this case, we are talking about willingly defrauding end customers.
> 
> Also, this was BEFORE this latest revelation that the 3.0L V6 is included. SO we go back to my original statement: None of VW's USDM TDIs were compliant, for nearly 10 years.
> 
> ...


the industry is different, but the agency pursuing the effects is the same. defrauding end customers is worse than destroying ecosystems? i'm no hippie tree hugger, but that's news to me. VW polluted more than allowed for a decade. that's incredibly bad. but to make an argument saying a punishment more severe than what BP had is going plaid. with this latest revelation about the rest of the TDI lineup, it's gotten much worse than we thought. punish them accordingly. BP destroyed ecosystems that, in turn, affected people and their businesses that depended on those ecosystems. VW lied to the government and people who bought their cars and emitted more NOx than allowed. even just saying it out loud, you can tell which is worse. i'm all for punishing them for what they've done, but not when it's wildly unfair when compared to other environmental ****ups.


----------



## Double-V (Mar 20, 2001)

ByronLLN said:


> Some Benz and BMW cars have been tested, I think. I don't know if the same is true of FCA's 6, but so far, so good.


My gut feeling is all the diesels sold in North America have a cheat code...


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Acedia said:


> Negligence vs Fraud


if only BP had lied about something too. oh... wait... they did.

http://fuelfix.com/blog/2015/06/02/...c-lied-to-oil-spill-investigators/#10176101=0



> “How big a problem BP had on its hands depended on how much oil was flowing,” Tsao said. He said an early government estimate of 1,000 barrels a day was soon upped to 5,000. It was that second figure that Rainey, a geologist who the government said had no experience calculating flow rates, allegedly tried to match rather than come up with an independent assessment.
> 
> Ultimately, a federal judge ruled that roughly 3.19 million barrels spilled before the damaged well was capped after 87 days — a rate of more than 36,000 barrels per day.


you don't see it because you don't look. i see it because i do look. BP lied about more than how many barrels per day were leaking, by the way. but if you want to sum it up to something as simple as negligence vs fraud, then i'll be happy to inform you better.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

I don't think my gasser MKV can take anymore VW bad news. 

Its value has dropped 14% since just before this cluster****. 
Soon, it'll be down to scrap value. 

VW - where's the bail out for your gasoline customers?


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

Lwize said:


> I don't think my gasser MKV can take anymore VW bad news.
> 
> Its value has dropped 14% since just before this cluster****.
> Soon, it'll be down to scrap value.
> ...



It comes in the form of $2k loyalty bonus if you buy a new VW :laugh: Almost jumped at it with the Golf R but didnt want to wait 3 to 6 months for one


----------



## TangoRed (Sep 7, 2005)

Double-V said:


> My gut feeling is all the diesels sold in North America have a cheat code...


I seriously doubt it.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> the industry is different, but the agency pursuing the effects is the same. defrauding end customers is worse than destroying ecosystems? i'm no hippie tree hugger, but that's news to me. VW polluted more than allowed for a decade. that's incredibly bad. but to make an argument saying a punishment more severe than what BP had is going plaid. with this latest revelation about the rest of the TDI lineup, it's gotten much worse than we thought. punish them accordingly. BP destroyed ecosystems that, in turn, affected people and their businesses that depended on those ecosystems. VW lied to the government and people who bought their cars and emitted more NOx than allowed. even just saying it out loud, you can tell which is worse. i'm all for punishing them for what they've done, but not when it's wildly unfair when compared to other environmental ****ups.


For about the millionth time, willful fraud is treated much harsher than an accident, even if said accident was the BP's fault.

Same thing with manslaughter and premeditated murder. Don't know why seven weeks later you still can't understand that?


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> VW is denying the recent claims that the 3.0TDI engine has the cheat code software installed:
> 
> http://www.carscoops.com/2015/11/epa-accuses-vw-denies-that-v6-tdi-has.html
> 
> ...


It's going to be an interesting week for car news (said nobody on this site during SEMA, ever).


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

vwwtchr said:


> For about the millionth time, willful fraud is treated much harsher than an accident, even if said accident was the BP's fault.
> 
> Same thing with manslaughter and premeditated murder. Don't know why seven weeks later you still can't understand that?


I don't think you can really classify willful negligence regarding the BP spill as an accident. They knew things weren't up to snuff and chose to not act and then lied about how much oil was being spilled, from 1k-5k barrels a day up to the final determination of 36k barrels a day. That's the point he was trying to make.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

FastGTi said:


> *EPA discovers defeat device in more VW TDI engines*
> In a sternly worded letter, the United States Environmental Protection Agency [snip]


Reminds me of this at 0:42 :laugh:


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

vwwtchr said:


> shows an absolute disregard and open contempt for the EPA and for Americans.


I would bet that a very large number of Americans are far more concerned about acceleration and MPG than they are NOX. I'm not giving VW a pass here, they screwed up. But what I'm saying is that the average driver is way more worried about how their car drives and what kind of fuel economy they are getting than an invisible gas that they can't feel any immediate ill effects from.

My point being the average American doesn't feel insulted here...they don't care about emissions any more than VW does.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

syncro87 said:


> I would bet that a very large number of Americans are far more concerned about acceleration and MPG than they are NOX. I'm not giving VW a pass here, they screwed up. But what I'm saying is that the average driver is way more worried about how their car drives and what kind of fuel economy they are getting than an invisible gas that they can't feel any immediate ill effects from.
> 
> My point being the average American doesn't feel insulted here...they don't care about emissions any more than VW does.


I don't think that is true at all. Look how long and loud this has been in the media. It's not just because it's being reported in a vacuum. People are outraged and angry. VW screwed them over, big time. And on purpose to boot.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

vwwtchr said:


> I don't think that is true at all. Look how long and loud this has been in the media. It's not just because it's being reported in a vacuum. People are outraged and angry. VW screwed them over, big time. And on purpose to boot.


Regulatory issues in most corporatations are generally considered to be non-negotiable. Most companies have a dedicated Compliance department specifically assigned to look for - and MITIGATE - risks that arise from a normal flow of business.

VW is no different. Whether the public cares or not, VW willingly broke the law and covered it up. Cause, and effect. Non-negotiable.

Thats why people comparing this to BP just make my head hurt. This isn't BP. This is VW, and there has not been a level of fraud like this involving consumer goods since...well, ever. And that's why it's so ridiculous, so comical to watch - there should be safeguards (MANY MANY safeguards!!!!) to prevent something like this occuring. So how did it?

The only answer is senior executives approved it. That's how it works in my company, and I assume that's how it would work in a major car company.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

Maximum_Download said:


> The only answer is senior executives approved it. That's how it works in my company, and I assume that's how it would work in a major car company.


VW is assembling a team of 10-20 scapegoats to fall on the sword for this one. 

The culture of dishonesty will remain.

VW: Clean House.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Maximum_Download said:


> Regulatory issues in most corporatations are generally considered to be non-negotiable. Most companies have a dedicated Compliance department specifically assigned to look for - and MITIGATE - risks that arise from a normal flow of business.


What I would give to see the DAR that was written up while the execs and/or engineers were figuring out what to do way back when.


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

vwwtchr said:


> I don't think that is true at all. Look how long and loud this has been in the media. It's not just because it's being reported in a vacuum. People are outraged and angry. VW screwed them over, big time. And on purpose to boot.


You equate the amount of media coverage of VW with the level of public outrage against VW?

I don't think people walking around on the street are all that worried about it. Sure, TDI owners are ticked, and they have every right to be. A few other people are, too. But I honestly don't think it is very high on the outrage radar of the average American.

Media coverage of a news item may or may not be commensurate with the level of public outrage on a topic.

I'll give you a small, anecdotal example. I work with a pretty large group of people. We're pretty chatty on the whole, and if something interesting is in the news, you'll invariably talk about it or hear someone else talking about it. Pick a major news story, and it's water cooler gossip where I work.

I have not heard one mention of the TDI scandal. Not one. I will add that my coworkers aren't shy, and they would jump on the chance to give someone a good ribbing about something if they could. For example, everyone there who has any clue knows I drive a Volkswagen. So the opportunity is ripe for someone to give me a hard time about it. Again, not one word, not one jibe.

I really don't think it's that big a deal to most people. Certainly not to the level of outrage. Just my take on it. Maybe you're right, but I don't see it.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Acedia said:


> Negligence vs Fraud


Exactly. Harsher penalties for people purposely breaking the law over ones that are just incompetent. Right or wrong this is pretty much universal.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

dmorrow said:


> Exactly. Harsher penalties for people purposely breaking the law over ones that are just incompetent. Right or wrong this is pretty much universal.


Illustrated by the way people who kill others in non-DUI car accidents are treated vs. those who accidentally kill other human beings when no vehicle is involved.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

syncro87 said:


> I really don't think it's that big a deal to most people. Certainly not to the level of outrage. Just my take on it. Maybe you're right, but I don't see it.


I had to explain my jack-o-lantern to about 20 people over the weekend.

Not everyone gets it, or has any idea how big of a deal this could end up being.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

vwwtchr said:


> People are outraged and angry.


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> Exactly. Harsher penalties for people purposely breaking the law over ones that are just incompetent. Right or wrong this is pretty much universal.


True.

Where it becomes a grey area to me personally is the issue of severity of the crime, prior to intent being brought into it.

Theoretical example. There are some starving people in a nearby town. Two of us are tasked with delivering bread to those people. Me, 100 loaves. Guy #2, two hundred loaves. Total bread needs in the town is 300 loaves. Our deliveries, combined, will just meet demand.

Scenario #1: I deliberately dump my load in a lake because I hate the people of that town. They only get 200 loaves from the other guy. 

Scenario#2: I deliver my 100 loaves, but the other guy is an idiot and leaves his truck parked in the rain, and the bread is ruined and moldy. Town gets 100 loaves.


More people suffer in the case of his negligence than the case of my premeditated destruction of the bread.

Who deserves a greater penalty, me or guy #2? Granted, I was more of an a-hole than he was. But his stupidity caused greater harm to people than my malice.


I only bring this up because people seem to bring up the BP thing a lot. One could make the case, I think, that more tangible harm was done in the BP case, even though VW probably acted more maliciously.

I'm only throwing this out there because I really have no legal education at all, and maybe some of you who do can opine on my little scenario there.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

Silly_me said:


>


More like:


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

Maximum_Download said:


> The only answer is senior executives approved it.


I'm guessing anyone saying this has never worked as an engineer on any cutting edge development project where your timeline isn't dependent on when you're done, but instead on when the senior execs or marketeers, or regulatory authorities have set the ship date.

In a perfect world, the engineers should have told the senior execs to stuff their schedule, but that doesn't always happen. Sometimes, it's because they think they can figure it out in time (or... in this case, before anyone found out), or because they don't feel like losing their jobs... which, of course, ends up being a short-sighted view.

I can see scenarios where the senior execs, or even senior engineers knew nothing about this, because to them, it looked like a what they expected. An engineering success.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

syncro87 said:


> Scenario #1: I deliberately dump my load in a lake because I hate the people of that town. They only get 200 loaves from the other guy.
> 
> Scenario#2: I deliver my 100 loaves, but the other guy is an idiot and leaves his truck parked in the rain, and the bread is ruined and moldy. Town gets 100 loaves.
> 
> ...



*What's missing from your scenario is that prior to setting out with the deliveries, you both got instructions:*

A. "Don't be stupid. People are counting on this food. If you ruin it, you'll have to pay for it."
B. "If you steal it or intentionally don't deliver it, not only does Rule A apply, you'll also get whipped 1 stroke for each loaf you failed to deliver."


Guy #1 has to pay for the loaves, and gets 100 lashes. This is a much harsher penalty than Guy #2, who only has to pay for the bread he ruined through neglect.

*You both knew the rules to begin with. You knew what would happen if you broke the rules. You broke the rules intentionally. The per-loaf whipping applies. Tough ****. * He caused greater harm, but that doesn't change what you knew the existing rules to be before you went and broke them anyway.

For the obtuse:
Guy #1 = VW
Guy #2 = BP
Lashes = EPA penalty per non-conforming vehicle.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

Air and water do mix said:


> Very much this.
> 
> GM going belly-up here would have been disastrous, but VW as compared to Germany? It's not like 1949 when VW was 49% of their GDP, but it's one of the biggest (if not _the_ biggest) slices of that German GDP pie.


Which really begs the question, at what point are you so dependent not only on the company itself, but the ethos that grown around it, that you start wondering about breaking them up. At some point the whole too big to fail is very real.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Lwize said:


> VW is assembling a team of 10-20 scapegoats to fall on the sword for this one.
> 
> The culture of dishonesty will remain.
> 
> VW: Clean House.


It's going to be criminal charges though if it turns out this really did affect the 3.0 as well. No way could the cheating cover that many cars across so many years and brands unless it was sanctioned from the executive office. You can't tell me that some rich, white collar mid-level exec who's lost his job and about to go to jail is going to protect the CEO out of some kind of blind company loyalty. No, people do work because they get paid to do work. Once they lose their jobs, any loyalty they have to the company evaporates because they're not being paid by the company anymore.

If the CEO directed this (as implications have been made, since Winterkorn was allegedly the man who ordered the company to abandon Bluetec in the first place) in order to save money, I think that the lower level engineers will point directly to their bosses, who will keep pointing upwards until somebody testifies in court the Winterkorn gave the order to do whatever it takes to pass the emissions tests without paying for Bluetec. I suspect that culture of cheating was so invasive that it's why they continued to cheat even on cars that received urea injection later on.


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

OOOO-A3 said:


> *What's missing from your scenario is that prior to setting out with the deliveries, you both got instructions:*
> 
> A. "Don't be stupid. People are counting on this food. If you ruin it, you'll have to pay for it."
> B. "If you steal it or intentionally don't deliver it, not only does Rule A apply, you'll also get whipped 1 stroke for each loaf you failed to deliver."
> ...


Ok, thanks for that.

I guess in my mind, what I have a hard time resolving is why, if I've caused 100 units of harm by being a jerk, I am penalized more than the guy who caused twice as much harm to people by being stupid. If the total amount of harm done was roughly similar, sure, I get that being a jerk deserves a greater penalty.

On one hand, I get the concept of malice being a bad thing and needing to be punished. On the other hand, bottom line is I caused half the harm Guy #2 did, so why should I face a harsher penalty? In the end, the amount of harm done is the root crime, and the intent or lack of becomes secondary, albeit not unimportant. But should intent and half the harm count for more than less intent and twice as many people hurt? Hmm...not sure. 

The question being, I guess, is that at what point does more harm done negligently outweigh substantially less harm done intentionally?


----------



## nyexx (Dec 12, 2014)

Calling it now, Volkswagens gas engines are rigged to pass emissions too 

opcorn:


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

syncro87 said:


> Ok, thanks for that.
> 
> I guess in my mind, what I have a hard time resolving is why, if I've caused 100 units of harm by being a jerk, I am penalized more than the guy who caused twice as much harm to people by being stupid. If the total amount of harm done was roughly similar, sure, I get that being a jerk deserves a greater penalty.
> 
> ...


If you engineer a bridge that falls down and kills 100 people (you are incompetent) you aren't sentenced to death but the person that walks into a house and kills a person can be.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Surf Green said:


> I'm guessing anyone saying this has never worked as an engineer on any cutting edge development project where your timeline isn't dependent on when you're done, but instead on when the senior execs or marketeers, or regulatory authorities have set the ship date.
> 
> In a perfect world, the engineers should have told the senior execs to stuff their schedule, but that doesn't always happen. Sometimes, it's because they think they can figure it out in time (or... in this case, before anyone found out), or because they don't feel like losing their jobs... which, of course, ends up being a short-sighted view.
> 
> I can see scenarios where the senior execs, or even senior engineers knew nothing about this, because to them, it looked like a what they expected. An engineering success.


I work with an engineering team myself and no one can touch the compliance team. It doesn't matter what you propose, it must go through compliance. No engineer I work with would ever dream of doing something that would put us in the cross-hairs of the compliance team, much less attempt to cheat both our internal compliance team and the law. Just this year I saw a project get delayed to bring it into line. It was escalated way up in management and they were basically told T.S., you do it the right way even if it's 6 months late. This points to two major failures at VW: First, the fact that they were willing to cheat, either through executive pressure or by the VW party line that a rogue group of engineers did it "just because."

Secondly, it shows that their compliance team is somewhere between weak and non-existent. When GM had it's Colorado diesel put on hold for enhanced EPA testing, they basically said "No problem, we test both in the lab and the real world." For so many cars from VW to ship with the defeat device shows that their regulatory compliance teams are so weak or non-existent that they managed to avoid having any real-world testing done on the cars for as long as they existed. Multiple models, multiple countries, multiple versions (EPA, Euro5, RoW) and the cars continued to ship. This is as much a black mark on VW's own internal CQ & regulatory compliance as it is a mark against the people who made the cheat. Generally the only way you get something through both years of engineering AND override compliance is if it comes from the office of the CEO.


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

nyexx said:


> Calling it now, Volkswagens gas engines are rigged to pass emissions too
> 
> opcorn:


If that were the case, all the extinction event talk suddenly looks very real.


----------



## KARMANN_20V (May 25, 2005)

nyexx said:


> Calling it now, Volkswagens electric engines are rigged to pass emissions too
> 
> opcorn:


opcorn:opcorn:


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> Secondly, it shows that their compliance team is somewhere between weak and non-existent.


Two more options: indifferent or outright complicit.


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> If you engineer a bridge that falls down and kills 100 people (you are incompetent) you aren't sentenced to death but the person that walks into a house and kills a person can be.


Yeah, I guess you're right. Seems odd, the more I think about it. If someone forgets to close a valve on a ship because they were drunk, and 500 people die horrible drawn out deaths due to exposure over a time period of days, it's possibly less of a penalty than if someone else takes a gun and quickly kills one person walking down the street.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Surf Green said:


> I'm guessing anyone saying this has never worked as an engineer on any cutting edge development project where your timeline isn't dependent on when you're done, but instead on when the senior execs or marketeers, or regulatory authorities have set the ship date.
> 
> In a perfect world, the engineers should have told the senior execs to stuff their schedule, but that doesn't always happen. Sometimes, it's because they think they can figure it out in time (or... in this case, before anyone found out), or because they don't feel like losing their jobs... which, of course, ends up being a short-sighted view.
> 
> I can see scenarios where the senior execs, or even senior engineers knew nothing about this, because to them, it looked like a what they expected. An engineering success.


I agree with this, you get under enough pressure and think the choice is to get it done or get fired and it is possible to make a long term bad decision by caving and breaking the law. I don't agree with the decision but understand how it could happen. Senior execs got what they wanted (a car to sell and looks compliant) and rest were "successful".


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

nyexx said:


> Calling it now, Volkswagens gas engines are rigged to pass emissions too
> 
> opcorn:


Mine passed CA smog testing last week - OBDII "test", no butt sniffer, no treadmill.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

syncro87 said:


> Ok, thanks for that.
> 
> I guess in my mind, what I have a hard time resolving is why, if I've caused 100 units of harm by being a jerk, I am penalized more than the guy who caused twice as much harm to people by being stupid. If the total amount of harm done was roughly similar, sure, I get that being a jerk deserves a greater penalty.
> 
> ...


Going back to my prior post.... there was never anything on the books for "you will be penalized $x per ton of spilled crude if you **** up, and an additional $y per dead sea creature as a result of the spilled crude". So, when BP ****s up, how are they to assess the penalty? Are they supposed to say "what's the WORST penalty for ANYTHING that could EVER POSSIBLY HAPPEN, so we can punish BP more than that?" Was someone years ago supposed to say "what if an automaker sold eleventy-million non-conforming cars and had to pay a fine for each... that would be a big fine, right? We HAVE to fine BP more than that!" 

On the other hand, should we excuse VW because no matter how explicit the penalty was BEFORE they broke the law, they broke it so hugely that we have to make sure we don't punish them more than we did a completely unrelated event years ago? Not every crime/punishment is universally equitable. Hitler killed 50 million people, and he died once. A random murderer kills one person... should he only be 1/50millionth executed to keep things proportional to the worst case?


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

syncro87 said:


> You equate the amount of media coverage of VW with the level of public outrage against VW?
> 
> I don't think people walking around on the street are all that worried about it. Sure, TDI owners are ticked, and they have every right to be. A few other people are, too. But I honestly don't think it is very high on the outrage radar of the average American.


Prius and tesla owners...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Lwize said:


> Mine passed CA smog testing last week - OBDII "test", no butt sniffer, no treadmill.


Yeah several companies have been busted for that too; Honda was one in 96-98 that had ECU's report "Ready" state in the OBD-II software even if one of the sensors was failed. I think GM had some out of compliance OBD-II cars also. Many companies have cheated on emissions in the past, but generally they stopped in the modern age when it got easy enough to pass emissions that it wasn't worth the risk of cheating. Of course, most companies don't bother with diesel engines in low cost vehicles other than VW. Even the other light-duty players from BMW and Mercedes are generally a lot more expensive than a Golf/Jetta TDI. The fact that it now appears the more mid-segment V6s were cheaters is quite disappointing and points to high level, executive directed cheating.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Did anyone else read the letter from the EPA?

EPA notice of violation for the 3.0 liter engines

Take a look at the 3rd paragraph below. Read it carefully: If this doesn't sound like institutionalized cheating, I don't know what is. The information in the 4th and 5th paragraphs seem to confirm it is a test-sensing ECU that specifically runs in very different modes for the SCR temperature, injection timing, EGR valve, and even the fuel rail pressure. That is a HUGE amount of parameters to change. I don't see how anyone at VW can read this letter and then immediately claim there was no cheating on their ECUs.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Yep. Sure does to me, too.

And I'm super bummed by this...I was hoping the SCR-equipped cars would be fine. I'd seriously consider a Q5 TDI. Oh well.


----------



## bzcat (Nov 26, 2001)

AZGolf said:


> Did anyone else read the letter from the EPA?
> 
> EPA notice of violation for the 3.0 liter engines
> 
> Take a look at the 3rd paragraph below. Read it carefully: If this doesn't sound like institutionalized cheating, I don't know what is. The information in the 4th and 5th paragraphs seem to confirm it is a test-sensing ECU that specifically runs in very different modes for the SCR temperature, injection timing, EGR valve, and even the fuel rail pressure. That is a HUGE amount of parameters to change. I don't see how anyone at VW can read this letter and then immediately claim there was no cheating on their ECUs.


This doesn't look good at all 

The EPA is making the exact same allegation against 3.0 TDI now as it did against 2.0 TDI. We were at this exact point with 2.0 TDI a year ago that lead to a bogus recall for "software update" that we came to find out did nothing. We'll see if this develops into EPA withholding 2017 certification on Audi and Porsche 3.0 TDI models opcorn:


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

OOOO-A3 said:


> *You both knew the rules to begin with. You knew what would happen if you broke the rules. You broke the rules intentionally. The per-loaf whipping applies. Tough ****. * He caused greater harm, but that doesn't change what you knew the existing rules to be before you went and broke them anyway.
> .


Floggings will continue until morale improves!


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

syncro87 said:


> Ok, thanks for that.
> 
> I guess in my mind, what I have a hard time resolving is why, if I've caused 100 units of harm by being a jerk, I am penalized more than the guy who caused twice as much harm to people by being stupid. If the total amount of harm done was roughly similar, sure, I get that being a jerk deserves a greater penalty.
> 
> ...


One thing that's contributing to VW's world of hurt is also the number of wronged parties with valid claims. I mean, in the US alone, you have a bunch of owners, you have 50 states and their attorneys general and various consumer protection statutes and their individual Departments of Environmental Quality or whatever they call it, and you got EPA and DOJ. That's a lot of possible litigation, from a bunch of parties who needn't consider the others' contribution to the lake of hot water VW finds itself in.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Every time I think this scandal can't possibly get worse ... it does.


----------



## gonzo08452 (Apr 17, 2006)

Is it so hard to just come clean at this point? Holy cow!


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

I don't know the complete validity behind it but I believe i read somewhere that VW with the help of the German Government are trying to negotiate a term with the rest of the EU that they will only have to pay fines relating to the scandal that Germany dishes out. That could be very big for VW if true. Of course I think that only pertains to possible fines and not criminal cases that may be brought against them in each country.

Obviously that doesn't take into account the US, but i wonder if they would try and negotiate a similar deal where they will accept fines from the EPA/DOJ but limit it at that, and not have individual states bring fines against them. If the fines and penalties get too big here in the US, they'll just declare bankruptcy to protect themselves.


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

Turbio! said:


> Floggings will continue until morale improves!


Always thought that was "Meetings", but that works just as well. :thumbup:


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

noatonement said:


> If the fines and penalties get too big here in the US, they'll just declare bankruptcy to protect themselves.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

Mazda 3s said:


>


:laugh: Its the american way. That and sue sue sue!


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

noatonement said:


> :laugh: Its the american way. That and sue sue sue!


Sue sure, but bail outs would also be the American way too.

I've gotten the class law suit letters and emails.


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

Turbio! said:


> One thing that's contributing to VW's world of hurt is also the number of wronged parties with valid claims. I mean, in the US alone, you have a bunch of owners, you have 50 states and their attorneys general and various consumer protection statutes and their individual Departments of Environmental Quality or whatever they call it, and you got EPA and DOJ. That's a lot of possible litigation, from a bunch of parties who needn't consider the others' contribution to the lake of hot water VW finds itself in.


So, assume, since VW can pass EPA testing and only the defeat device causes them not to, they can fix all the cars so that EPA and CARB agree that they are compliant. Further, assume, because the EPA has said so, that neither power nor fuel economy is much reduced by complying. VW will also have to extend the warranty on the emissions equipment. These are real expenses that VW must pay to remedy their defective cars.

VW still cheated, and DOJ, EPA, CARB may come down pretty hard on them. But the fines levied on other companies were such that the companies continued to do business.

That leaves the owners, but VW can move to combine the suits, and likely will pay out one time to the whole group. That's not good, but also not ending the company. If the fixed cars have no significant loss of power or fuel efficiency, and a warranty to cover longevity, the claim for damage is weak.

VW may have actually enhanced their reputation a bit. Making fools of the EPA is wrong in my book, but not everyone would agree.

Down the road, I expect GTE to be the premium sub-brand. That will be expensive to develop. In the mean time, I expect the TDI brand to return.

VW will have a one-time huge expense, but that will be forgotten in a few quarters.


----------



## VarianceVQ (Jun 26, 2005)

^One of the true-believers, huh?


----------



## surefooted (May 21, 2001)

Blonde Guy said:


> So, assume, since VW can pass EPA testing and only the defeat device causes them not to, they can fix all the cars so that EPA and CARB agree that they are compliant. Further, assume, because the EPA has said so, that neither power nor fuel economy is much reduced by complying. VW will also have to extend the warranty on the emissions equipment. These are real expenses that VW must pay to remedy their defective cars.
> 
> VW still cheated, and DOJ, EPA, CARB may come down pretty hard on them. But the fines levied on other companies were such that the companies continued to do business.
> 
> ...


Just keep walking...












VarianceVQ said:


> ^One of the true-believers, huh?


A true blonde guy indeed.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Blonde Guy said:


> Down the road, I expect GTE to be the premium sub-brand. That will be expensive to develop. In the mean time, I expect the TDI brand to return.
> 
> VW will have a one-time huge expense, but that will be forgotten in a few quarters.



Maybe, DEFINITELY no, and highly doubtful. 

TDI's are done here. That's coming from the TDI owner that started this thread 170 pages ago. Not only has VW stated that TDI technology was going to sunset due to ever-stricter emissions regs making them economically impractical to continue developing and selling, there is no way they recover from this PR disaster. 

I have no idea how we'll ever sell ours--certainly not for the market premium it would have likely commanded pre-Dieselgate (low mileage, 1 owner fully loaded Golf TDI); likely quite the opposite. 

VW's intentional deceit has screwed over owners, and now looks like it will screw over people that spent a hell of a lot more than we did (Q7 & Cayenne owners).


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

Blonde Guy said:


> So, assume, since VW can pass EPA testing and only the defeat device causes them not to.


You really don't understand what is happening here, do you?

They cannot pass under normal conditions. Only the presence of the illegal defeat device lets them cheat the test. The opposite of what you said. 

If the cars were permanently locked in "test mode", we have no idea if they'd even be reasonably drivable in real life. If it were that simple VW would have had a software solution out in a few days. Obviously that didn't happen.


----------



## Iroczgirl (Feb 17, 2007)

So any updates on the situation in California?

Are they allowed to re-register TDi's yet? I really want to buy a Mk6 Golf with a manual transmission please. Cheap. 

Maybe I need to give it another 6 months or so?


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

Numbersix said:


> Maybe, DEFINITELY no, and highly doubtful.
> 
> TDI's are done here. That's coming from the TDI owner that started this thread 170 pages ago. Not only has VW stated that TDI technology was going to sunset due to ever-stricter emissions regs making them economically impractical to continue developing and selling, there is no way they recover from this PR disaster.
> 
> ...


I've spoken with a few TDI owners that feel the exact same. And I'm also curious to see what pans out with the 3.0 TDI. The car ignorant community will not bother to know exactly which ones, but will see German autos, probably all European autos, as untrustworthy.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I'm looking at a 12' Sportwagen TDI with 39k on it with a 6 speed manual, loaded with everything except Nav. I can snag it for $14k ish. 

This is where I'm not sure if worth it or not. 

Great car, but I test drove the 1.4t last night too. Can be had for $15,400 in manual. But you get nothing. And it's just a base jetta at that point. Still gets great mileage though!


----------



## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)




----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

Numbersix said:


> Maybe, DEFINITELY no, and highly doubtful.
> 
> TDI's are done here. That's coming from the TDI owner that started this thread 170 pages ago. Not only has VW stated that TDI technology was going to sunset due to ever-stricter emissions regs making them economically impractical to continue developing and selling, there is no way they recover from this PR disaster.


Yup. TDI is dead in the US, maybe the EU as well. 

To think otherwise is


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Soooo, you're saying I should not buy the Sportwagen?


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Blonde Guy said:


> So, assume, since VW can pass EPA testing and only the defeat device causes them not to, t.


No. Precisely the opposite. Only with the defeat enabled are they capable of passing EPA testing. 

TDI will, in all likelihood, never return to the US market.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Turbio! said:


> No. Precisely the opposite. Only with the defeat enabled are they capable of passing EPA testing.


the defeat device can't make the existing system better at reducing emissions. it turns on the full system when it senses it's being tested. so the cars can pass without it, as long as the programming overwriting that defeat device says to.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

Turbio! said:


> No. Precisely the opposite. Only with the defeat enabled are they capable of passing EPA testing.
> 
> TDI will, in all likelihood, never return to the US market.


I'm betting the next-gen Cruze diesel will also be quietly canceled.


----------



## TangoRed (Sep 7, 2005)

Sucks this is happening as soon as Jaguar Land Rover is bringing their diesels over here. I wonder if the take-rate will still meet projections.


----------



## vwguru714 (Aug 23, 2007)

GoHomeBroke said:


> the defeat device can't make the existing system better at reducing emissions. it turns on the full system when it senses it's being tested. so the cars can pass without it, as long as the programming overwriting that defeat device says to.


If it were that simple wouldn't they just overwrite the software to comply? In normal mode it can't pass and in cheat mode there are economy, power, and reliability issues. 


Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

GoHomeBroke said:


> the defeat device can't make the existing system better at reducing emissions. it turns on the full system when it senses it's being tested. so the cars can pass without it, as long as the programming overwriting that defeat device says to.


Yes, the cars are capable of functioning in some way for the duration of the official emission test.

So yes, hypothetically, it could go into that operating mode and stay there instead of going out of it.

The issue is the side-effects of doing so - side-effects such as using more fuel, having less power, or (highly likely) reducing the durability of the emission control components or of the engine itself.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

ByronLLN said:


> It's going to be an interesting week for car news (said nobody on this site during SEMA, ever).


In the "real world" this is just the latest of many news headlines. To the people in this forum that follow this stuff so closely, it gets a lot more attention. This latest wrinkle is interesting because all three brands using the 3.0 TDI are denying it uses "cheat" software. This is a very different reaction than the first round (also affects a LOT less vehicles). 

Will be interesting to see how this latest round plays out.


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

10,000 for now...quiet before the storm. 3.0 tdi has been around for many years. Surely that number will be much higher globally.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> In the "real world" this is just the latest of many news headlines. To the people in this forum that follow this stuff so closely, it gets a lot more attention. This latest wrinkle is interesting because all three brands using the 3.0 TDI are denying it uses "cheat" software. This is a very different reaction than the first round (also affects a LOT less vehicles).
> 
> Will be interesting to see how this latest round plays out.


This, and the report is that they pollute worse on the road. Nearly every single Diesel motor tested on hte EPA cycle or the EU cycles pollutes worse under normal driving conditions. This is independent of "cheat codes" or other software issues. 

Poor reporting, IMO. Should have been "Audi 3.0l Diesels found to emit higher levels on road versus EPA cycle" and left it at that. Assuming a cheat is stretching it pretty far.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

should have kept them but I'm up to 4 mailers from law firms and their class action lawsuits. opcorn:


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I'm so torn on what to do!!!


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> In the "real world" this is just the latest of many news headlines. To the people in this forum that follow this stuff so closely, it gets a lot more attention. This latest wrinkle is interesting because all three brands using the 3.0 TDI are denying it uses "cheat" software. This is a very different reaction than the first round (also affects a LOT less vehicles).
> 
> Will be interesting to see how this latest round plays out.


EPA: VW cheated again.

TCL: 

Public: They killed Glenn on TWD!?


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)

uncleho said:


> EPA: VW cheated again.
> 
> TCL:
> 
> Public: They killed Glenn on TWD!?


I think you pretty much nailed it.

That and...

Public: Ooooh the holiday Starbucks cups are back!


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Just heard KBB's Karl Brauer on NPR Morning Edition saying that since the 'cheat' was on more expensive cars and not just the cheaper cars that it wasn't a cost issue but a "_philosophical issue_" at Volkswagen.

http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=454192879&m=454192880


LOL my knee has epilepsy :laugh:


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

uncleho said:


> EPA: VW cheated again.
> 
> TCL:
> 
> Public: They killed Glenn on TWD!?





ClownCar said:


> I think you pretty much nailed it.
> 
> That and...
> 
> Public: Ooooh the holiday Starbucks cups are back!


My circle of friends and coworkers are pretty aware of the situation. I wouldn't label them as 'car guys/gals' but the story is on their radar. Unfortunately they think it's all VWs that have emissions issues and I have to clarify that it's just the diesel engined cars.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

classicjetta said:


> I'm betting the next-gen Cruze diesel will also be quietly canceled.


From Oct. 15th - http://blog.caranddriver.com/gms-mark-reuss-chevrolet-cruze-diesel-and-cadillac-diesels-are-on-track/




> *GM’s Mark Reuss: Chevrolet Cruze Diesel and Cadillac Diesels Are on Track*
> 
> Will the VW diesel-emissions scandal permanently derail diesel technology for passenger cars in the United States? “No way,” says Mark Reuss, GM’s Executive Vice President of Global Product Development, Purchasing and Supply Chain. Speaking at a recent press event, *Reuss said that both the upcoming Chevrolet Cruze Diesel and the diesel program for Cadillac are safe.*
> 
> ...


If they were considering cancelling it I would have used the response of "we are looking at the market to decide if it still makes sense" and given the company a way to slowly backtrack out of it.

I hope they can produce a diesel that can meet all emissions standards, especially in Europe. Seems like the biggest player is going to have a struggle even if they fix the engine issue. Obviously there is a market that was buying a lot of diesels worldwide.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> Poor reporting, IMO. Should have been "Audi 3.0l Diesels found to emit higher levels on road versus EPA cycle" and left it at that. Assuming a cheat is stretching it pretty far.


No. Read the letter from the EPA. They specifically identified things such as observing the car's *ECU switch from emissions defeat mode to normal mode 1 second after the end of the EPA test* and suddenly altering basically every part of the engine's operation that affect emissions. I don't think the EPA would make such a claim - especially given how much attention this is getting - unless it were true. In fact the letter states it was confirmed based on findings from 3 separate emissions labs: the EPA's own lab, CARB's lab, and Canada's lab. I'm sorry but the notion that all 3 labs, each of which is sponsored by a different government, faked results is absurd.












[email protected] said:


> In the "real world" this is just the latest of many news headlines. To the people in this forum that follow this stuff so closely, it gets a lot more attention. This latest wrinkle is interesting because all three brands using the 3.0 TDI are denying it uses "cheat" software. This is a very different reaction than the first round (also affects a LOT less vehicles).


Actually it's exactly the same. VW was notified that there was something wrong with their emissions code in June 2014. They denied there was any wrongdoing or cheat software and issued two separate ECU updates, claiming to address minor unanticipated behavior issues. VW continued to deny any wrongdoing for over a year until September 2015 when the EPA withheld certification of the 2016 TDIs. There is no reason to believe VW ever would have admitted wrongdoing were it not for having the certificate of conformity being withheld on the 2016 4-cyl TDI models.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> My circle of friends and coworkers are pretty aware of the situation. I wouldn't label them as 'car guys/gals' but the story is on their radar. *Unfortunately they think it's all VWs that have emissions issues and I have to clarify that it's just the diesel engined cars.*


One of the major issues with the problem is the whole brand goes down with the problem model. Can only imagine the Sales/Marketing headache of trying to get people to trust VW and buy products from them right now. 

The government bailout of GM was about 7 years ago and it still upsets a lot of people.

EDIT - Also saw this - 

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/diesel-scandal-spreads-audi-porsche-and-volkswagen-30-liter-engines?utm_source=DailyDrive20151103&utm_medium=enewsletter&utm_term=headline-top&utm_content=body&utm_campaign=awdailydrive



> *Audi, Porsche and VW 3.0 TDI now implicated in emissions scandal*
> 
> The EPA said today that Volkswagen, Porsche and Audi vehicles with 3.0-liter diesel engines contained illegal “defeat device” software that resulted in higher emissions than allowed by law in the U.S.
> 
> ...


It looks like it goes higher than the people just working on the engines for VW, the 2.0T Engineers, or is just related to a VW brand problem.


----------



## Code Red! (Sep 22, 2011)

Overall the added news of the issue hitting Audi and Porsche is just more fodder for headlines. We still haven't seen what the fix will entail. The headlines will go a bit more nuts depending on what this fix is, and how many Joe/Jane American sob stories can be dredged up.

It's going to be ugly no matter what.

...and I just got some txt from my dealer saying "your car" may be affected by "the" recall. Wonder what this is for. Airbags I would hope, since we own no TDIs. 

le sigh


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

vwwtchr said:


> For about the millionth time, willful fraud is treated much harsher than an accident, even if said accident was the BP's fault.
> 
> Same thing with manslaughter and premeditated murder. Don't know why seven weeks later you still can't understand that?


BP lied about several things regarding that spill. including how much oil was being released into the ocean per day. they told the government 1k barrels, then 5k barrels, per day was being released when, in reality, it was closer to 36k barrels per day. in 87 days, an estimated 3.2 million barrels had been released. 



noatonement said:


> I don't think you can really classify willful negligence regarding the BP spill as an accident. They knew things weren't up to snuff and chose to not act and then lied about how much oil was being spilled, from 1k-5k barrels a day up to the final determination of 36k barrels a day. That's the point he was trying to make.


exactly. it wasn't an accident. they knew there was a problem. and ran a less than skeleton crew on the rig, as well. all in an effort to save money. safety, personnel, and regulations took a back seat to profitability.


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

.yuk. said:


> I'm so torn on what to do!!!


My own advice, FWIW, is to NOT buy the TDI. Fix is still unknown at this point, but likely extensive for this vehicle, and the other unknowns are too worrisome....exhaust components' life, engine wear and tear after the fix, parts and service availability in the future (after the diesel market dies here, which I'm pretty sure of at this point). My GSW was my first new Volkswagen, and definitely the last. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

GoHomeBroke said:


> BP lied about several things regarding that spill. including how much oil was being released into the ocean per day. they told the government 1k barrels, then 5k barrels, per day was being released when, in reality, it was closer to 36k barrels per day. in 87 days, an estimated 3.2 million barrels had been released.
> 
> exactly. it wasn't an accident. they knew there was a problem. and ran a less than skeleton crew on the rig, as well. all in an effort to save money. safety, personnel, and regulations took a back seat to profitability.


Let's go over it again:

Did BP put an oil rig in the ocean with the express purpose of pumping oil directly into the ocean? No.
Did VW sell half a million cars in the US (and 11M worldwide) with the express purpose of pumping NOx poison gas directly into the atmosphere at 10-40x legal limits? Yes.

Length of time BP was pumping oil into the ocean: 87 days
Length of time VW is pumping gross-polluter levels of NOx into the atmosphere: 7 years and counting; possibly 9+ years to unlimited, if the rumors are true that it will take 2 years to complete the recall, and only achieve a 40% recall rate nationally.

Length of time BP denied there was an accident: 0 days (there was an explosion, people died - there was no point denying the accident happened)
Length of time VW denied there was fraud: >300 days. (time from when CARB/EPA notified VW of the May 2014 symposium results until VW admitted they cheated, 2500+ days if you count the MY2009 certification)

Lots of companies have both accidents as well as regulatory cheating. It's wrong and when it's discovered it needs to be fixed and fines need to be paid. In the worst cases, executives need to go to jail. I would say that when you look at the facts, what VW has done and is continuing to do is actually even worse than Deepwater Horizon, and we all accept that DH was a disaster in its own right. I want to see VW executives in jail for this. Lock up the bad guys and let the other 600,000 VW employees who had nothing to do with the fraud go back to work making good cars again.


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

This VW emissions thing's 15 minutes is up. Anyone else bored with it yet?


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

dmorrow said:


> One of the major issues with the problem is the whole brand goes down with the problem model. Can only imagine the Sales/Marketing headache of trying to get people to trust VW and buy products from them right now.


Bingo. I get where people are coming from that the public doesn't care; they're more interested in red Starbucks cups. But a little bit of knowledge can be more dangerous for VW than people paying attention fully. My wife knows enough about the VW emissions scandal to know it's a VW problem, but what VWs it did and didn't affect is a detail that she tuned out on. It may stick for VW in some ways harder than for diesels, if this keeps shaking out with "VW" in headlines more prominently than "diesel."

People may not read the article, but they might see the headline in passing.


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

Car Problems said:


> This VW emissions thing's 15 minutes is up. Anyone else bored with it yet?


The first 15 minutes did end, until about 1pm yesterday:



ByronLLN said:


> Welp.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now it's been renewed for a second season,


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

I am just curious
How much Nox does my car emit compared to my 2001 w the ALH engine?


----------



## DrewSXR (Jul 26, 2000)

Since April 10th, 2015 to today their stock seems to have dropped 57% in value.

I wonder what was causing the downward trajectory since before the news broke out.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

CK98Beeetle said:


> The car ignorant community will not bother to know exactly which ones, but will see German autos, probably all European autos, as untrustworthy.


This could actually be a win for Cadillac if they can figure out how to build vehicles that Audi A6/Q5/Q7 and Porsche Cayenne drivers want (and figure out how to market them).


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

Car Problems said:


> This VW emissions thing's 15 minutes is up. Anyone else bored with it yet?


Oh, so what VW did and is doing, is meaningless to you?

My interest in the story is two fold - one from a car enthusiast perspective, and what will happen to the cars and the people who bought them.

But bigger and more importantly - I work for a German/American company of about 300 people, which has a compliance department. I know what tends to happen whenever there is a risk to the business (like the recent Safe Harbor blowup this past month). I would expect and hope VW has this same function, and much more robust than a smaller company has the capability of doing.

And that's why I am ASTOUNDED that this deception took place, and occured at such a high level and involved so many managers. This is a company that went full retard on a level that I would have expected would have been pushed out of global corporations DECADES ago. You simply do not make decisions like this when there is billions of dollars of risk to the company.

I don't think people like you get how serious this is. This will change the global corporate landscape. This will change how corporations do business. This will change future VW group's product lines, technology, and the vehicles that will ultimately end up in the showrooms. 

I just cannot express how huge this is, and it will in all likelyhood get even bigger before this is over. 

If you are bored with that, do us a favor and log out.


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

Well you sure put me in my place.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

Car Problems said:


> This VW emissions thing's 15 minutes is up. Anyone else bored with it yet?


You're asking that in the wrong forum.. This place is full of people praying to god that VW fails, whether it be from an emissions scandal or otherwise


----------



## CostcoPizza (Jan 20, 2008)

Maximum_Download said:


> Oh, so what VW did and is doing, is meaningless to you?
> 
> My interest in the story is two fold - one from a car enthusiast perspective, and what will happen to the cars and the people who bought them.
> 
> ...


Change the global corporate landscape? :laugh:

You're getting way too excited about this. 

VW's TDI-debacle has absolutely 0 impact on any business not in the auto industry, even the manufacturers/suppliers who don't rely diesel powertrains will be relatively unaffected.

I'm sure the inevitable new EPA reg's will have a real big impact on Facebook's goal to provide internet access to African nations-- or McDonald's struggle to increase same-store sales :laugh:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

cpermd said:


> I am just curious
> How much Nox does my car emit compared to my 2001 w the ALH engine?


Long story short, the EPA didn't take light duty emissions seriously for diesel engines until Tier II standards began to phase in from 2004 to 2007. In 2001, a light duty diesel could legally spew anything below 1.0 g/mile of NOx. The 2009-2015 cheater cars are accused of emitting about 0.7 to 2.8 g/mile, so they are _still_ significantly worse for smog than a 2001 car which had lower NOx at the expense of higher CO.

For reference, the standard that 2009-2015 TDI's were certified under is limited to 0.07 g/mile. Hence where the regularly quoted "10 to 40 times the limit" comes from. For comparison, a 3rd gen Prius is certified in a bin that permits only 0.03 to 0.02 g/mile of NOx depending on year and state of certification.


----------



## nicoli (Feb 21, 2003)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> My circle of friends and coworkers are pretty aware of the situation. I wouldn't label them as 'car guys/gals' but the story is on their radar. *Unfortunately they think it's all VWs that have emissions issues and I have to clarify that it's just the diesel engined cars*.


Yeah, I've caught some flack from a couple of guys around the office; especially since they know I am a fan of VWs in general. I've had to explain it's the diesel models, too. 

I might be reading into this wrong and being a bit too touchy, but it seems like a lot of folks in this thread are practically aroused by the idea of VW being "totally screwed," TDIs being through in the US, etc. :sly:


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

nicoli said:


> but it seems like a lot of folks in this thread are practically aroused by the idea of VW being "totally screwed," TDIs being through in the US, etc. :sly:


Long live the diesel :thumbup:


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

CostcoPizza said:


> Change the global corporate landscape? :laugh:
> 
> You're getting way too excited about this.
> 
> ...



You really think that it is not going to be a case study in corporate Compliance policy?

I can tell you we are watching it VERY closely, and we are about as far removed from the auto industry as you can get.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

CostcoPizza said:


> Change the global corporate landscape? :laugh:
> 
> You're getting way too excited about this.
> 
> ...


What this "debacle" tells us is that no matter the industry, we can no longer assume that corporations are doing what they say they are doing. You may think that's no big deal and everyone already operates under that assumption, but I would disagree. There is a base level of trust underlying interactions between consumers and businesses, and VW has blown that up. What I take away from it is that if it can happen at VW it can happen anywhere. So now what regulatory and compliance structures have to be put in place to ensure it can't happen again? I don't think we know yet.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

btitus said:


> So now what regulatory and compliance structures have to be put in place to ensure it can't happen again? I don't think we know yet.


I honestly don't think much will change on that front. CARB, EPA, and Canada's environmental policymaking group will probably just build a reasonably standardized test procedure for evaluating cars in the real world. I expect they'll likely then require the automakers to perform that test themselves, so as to not cause a dramatic cost increase to the regulatory bodies. So in other words, I think what is most likely is they'll just add 1 more test to the list of tests that automakers already have to pass (remember: there's actually a total of 5 they do now for fuel economy, not just FTP-75) and the automakers will be required to document that they are doing the testing correctly and not cheating.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

AZGolf said:


> I honestly don't think much will change on that front. CARB, EPA, and Canada's environmental policymaking group will probably just build a reasonably standardized test procedure for evaluating cars in the real world. I expect they'll likely then require the automakers to perform that test themselves, so as to not cause a dramatic cost increase to the regulatory bodies. So in other words, I think what is most likely is they'll just add 1 more test to the list of tests that automakers already have to pass (remember: there's actually a total of 5 they do now for fuel economy, not just FTP-75) and the automakers will be required to document that they are doing the testing correctly and not cheating.


I'm not talking about the specific problem of how to ensure that diesel emissions cheating doesn't happen any more. I mean how do we ensure that corporations aren't cheating. Enron (and others) begat SOX. I think this scandal may end up creating something of that magnitude.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

AZGolf said:


> No. Read the letter from the EPA.


Well, then. Hot damn. I think my guy might get the axe after all! Good FSM, I swear, Germans are the dumbest smart people in the world. :laugh:



Maximum_Download said:


> And that's why I am ASTOUNDED that this deception took place, and occurred at such a high level and involved so many managers. This is a company that went full retard on a level that I would have expected would have been pushed out of global corporations DECADES ago.


You clearly have never met any VW managers..... Or any giant Germany behemoth corporation managers. The culture is hilariously out of date. Several large German companies are currently rolling out some Jack Welch management BS that Welch himself disowned ten years ago. But some senior manager read about it and it was good at the time the article was written, so MAN BATTLE STATIONS!! FULL RETARD AHEAD!!!

I adore my German behemoth employer to no end. We are definitely past collusion, and will avoid most regulatory issues, but there are some risks that you just look and and shake your head, wondering how long it will take to clean that up, because that is job security!


----------



## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

So Takata is being fined 70MM by the US for a faulty product that killed people...


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

DasCC said:


> So Takata is being fined 70MM by the US for a faulty product that killed people...


Intentional faulty product or accidental design flaw?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> I expect they'll likely then require the automakers to perform that test themselves, so as to not cause a dramatic cost increase to the regulatory bodies.


Yeah, with self-governance this sort of thing wouldn't happen.



atomicalex said:


> I adore my German behemoth employer to no end. We are definitely past collusion, and will avoid most regulatory issues, but there are some risks that you just look and and shake your head, wondering how long it will take to clean that up, because that is job security!


I have an in-law whose an engineer, he teaches at university and told me that he was heading back to Germany for some more classes. He then grinned and said it was for morals in engineering :laugh:



2.0T_Convert said:


> Intentional faulty product or accidental design flaw?


See, you bomb an embassy and kill three reporters on accident, no sweat. Lie about getting a BJ by an intern, get impeached :laugh:


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

jen_madcity said:


> My own advice, FWIW, is to NOT buy the TDI. Fix is still unknown at this point, but likely extensive for this vehicle, and the other unknowns are too worrisome....exhaust components' life, engine wear and tear after the fix, parts and service availability in the future (after the diesel market dies here, which I'm pretty sure of at this point). My GSW was my first new Volkswagen, and definitely the last.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yea, without knowing exactly what vw will do it's a tough choice. It's really just rolling the dice. I have a buddy who is a vw tech, he thinks it's a good buy and will all work out. 

But who really knows I guess.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

btitus said:


> I'm not talking about the specific problem of how to ensure that diesel emissions cheating doesn't happen any more. I mean how do we ensure that corporations aren't cheating. Enron (and others) begat SOX. I think this scandal may end up creating something of that magnitude.


It goes to human nature though. Like I just read an article about how ITT in the 1960's grew through M&A activities fueled with low interest rates and questionable accounting before it came crashing down as soon as interest rates went up from 4% to 8%. IMO, this is why teaching _morals_ to our kids is more important than teaching laws. A moral person inherently wants to do what is right, whereas a legalistic person can still pursue unlimited greed and simply look for every legal wrangling (and ways to evade the law, when being legal is deemed less profitable) to maximize personal gain. Moral people make universally better decisions than immoral people, but parents teach morals, not schools, so there's no way to institutionalize it across the whole population.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> It goes to human nature though. Like I just read an article about how ITT in the 1960's grew through M&A activities fueled with low interest rates and questionable accounting before it came crashing down as soon as interest rates went up from 4% to 8%. IMO, this is why teaching _morals_ to our kids is more important than teaching laws. A moral person inherently wants to do what is right, whereas a legalistic person can still pursue unlimited greed and simply look for every legal wrangling (and ways to evade the law, when being legal is deemed less profitable) to maximize personal gain. Moral people make universally better decisions than immoral people, *but parents teach morals, not schools*, so there's no way to institutionalize it across the whole population.


As part of getting my MBA I had to take a Business Ethics class. Probably helps a small amount for everyone that takes it but there is so much that goes into shaping who you are that a Semester class isn't going to radically change you.


----------



## bzcat (Nov 26, 2001)

DrewSXR said:


> Since April 10th, 2015 to today their stock seems to have dropped 57% in value.
> 
> I wonder what was causing the downward trajectory since before the news broke out.


The cooling down of auto sector in China and the implosion of Brazilian economy, two of VW's biggest market.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Loving my newly acquired 2012 Golf TDI. :thumbup::thumbup:


I've got some interesting comments from people. People have noticed it has the temp license paper in the rear window, so they ask "did you really just go out and buy a TDI car?". Or "why in the hell would you buy that given the status of VW?!?"


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Uberhare said:


> Loving my newly acquired 2012 Golf TDI. :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> 
> I've got some interesting comments from people. People have noticed it has the temp license paper in the rear window, so they ask "did you really just go out and buy a TDI car?". Or "why in the hell would you buy that given the status of VW?!?"


I'm looking at a 12' as well!


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> As part of getting my MBA I had to take a Business Ethics class. Probably helps a small amount for everyone that takes it but there is so much that goes into shaping who you are that a Semester class isn't going to radically change you.


Yeah I view it as 3 separate standards as you move towards goodness:

Legal -> Ethical -> Moral

I have read between the lines in ethics classes at work that we only push towards legal and ethical standards. The company does not compel people to do what's morally right as long as what they're doing is legal and would be ruled as ethical by an ethics review panel.


----------



## Dawg Dee-Lux (Jul 16, 2004)

Press release:



> Dissemination of an Ad hoc announcement according to § 15 WpHG:
> Volkswagen AG has issued the following information:
> After irregularities were found in the development of diesel engines, the Board of Management of Volkswagen AG announced there would be a comprehensive investigation to establish whether there were indications of further irregularities relating to the approval of Volkswagen Group vehicles.
> During the course of internal investigations unexplained inconsistencies were found when determining Type Approval CO2 levels. *Based on present knowledge around 800,000 vehicles from the Volkswagen Group are affected*.
> ...


http://www.volkswagenag.com/content/vwcorp/info_center/en/news/2015/11/ad_hoc_announcement_nov.html


----------



## saabspider (May 17, 2006)

*800,000 more cars with CO2 issues..*

800,000 more cars with CO2 issues..

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015...els-idUSKCN0SS28B20151103#Lk6WCI3h62X6a4Vl.97


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

Uberhare said:


> Loving my newly acquired 2012 Golf TDI. :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> 
> I've got some interesting comments from people. People have noticed it has the temp license paper in the rear window, so they ask "did you really just go out and buy a TDI car?". Or "why in the hell would you buy that given the status of VW?!?"


:laugh:

Hopefully the markdown was sufficient enough to offset your future compliance/update related headaches


----------



## intercedeGLI (Sep 8, 2002)

saabspider said:


> 800,000 more cars with CO2 issues..
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2015...els-idUSKCN0SS28B20151103#Lk6WCI3h62X6a4Vl.97


They couldn't possibly have sold 800,000 3.0L TDI's, could they? Maybe this includes the 4L V8 as well? That seems incredibly high still. I wonder where the extra 800k cars came from. Or is this the total issue, not in addition to the ones already identified?


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Intentional faulty product or accidental design flaw?


Shhh, let the fanbois rationalize. opcorn:


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

New (at least to me) headline - 



> *Volkswagen's new stunner: Mileage figures were wrong*
> 
> Volkswagen's troubles just got a whole lot bigger.
> Still reeling from the diesel emissions scandal, the German automaker said Tuesday it had understated *carbon dioxide emissions and fuel consumption figures when certifying some models.*
> ...


http://money.cnn.com/2015/11/03/news/volkswagen-scandal-carbon-dioxide-fuel-consumption/index.html

On the bright side "The safety of the vehicles was not compromised".:laugh:


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

I think Chris Crocker could stage a comeback with a leave Volkswagen alone video.


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

dmorrow said:


> New (at least to me) headline -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The article wasn't clear. Anyone knows if this is for Diesel engines?


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

True for too many reasons. I need to get one.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)




----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

g-man_ae said:


> True for too many reasons. I need to get one.


I'd love for you to dig deep enough into each and every vehicle manufacturer's past to find some hidden skeleton so you'd be relegated to a 1978 Huffy Pro Thunder. Then we could read about your self-righteousness against the non-horse drawn carriage in your signature. DO IT!!! :wave:


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

dmorrow said:


>


HuffPo agrees with you, then proposes a ridiculous solution in total seriousness.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jack-hidary/how-to-save-vw_b_8460214.html



> Instead, it is time for a bold move.
> 
> VW should announce that it will take all of its models all-electric. This initially sounds like a crazy idea.


Yes it is. An industrial giant doesn't change overnight. VW, like all automakers, needs to move to an all-EV model lineup one day, but that day isn't today, or even tomorrow.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> I'd love for you to dig deep enough into each and every vehicle manufacturer's past to find some hidden skeleton so you'd be relegated to a 1978 Huffy Pro Thunder. Then we could read about your self-righteousness against the non-horse drawn carriage in your signature. DO IT!!! :wave:


He bought a 2015 TDI and isn't happy with VW and the latest events. Seems reasonable to me. Why does this upset you?


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

My only hope now is that VW recalls my gasser MKV to adjust the emissions to improve MPG.

It could happen.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

Just to be clear:

Today's admission that there are 800K cars that have incorrect mileage and CO2 emissions info is IN ADDITION to yesterday's bombshell on the 3.0 TDI.

So this is bombshell #3.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

Maximum_Download said:


> Just to be clear:


Crystal.


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34712435

BBC

Volkswagen says 800,000 cars may have false CO2 levels
39 minutes ago


VW says it has found "irregularities" in carbon dioxide emissions levels, which could affect around 800,000 cars in Europe.

The firm said the problem, which it came across while investigating diesel emissions, could cost about €2bn (£1.4bn).

Brands including VW, Audi, Skoda and Seat could be affected, a VW spokesman told BBC News.
The issue mainly affects diesels, but could also include petrol models.

The problem lies in the way certain car types with "smaller engines" were certified to meet carbon dioxide emissions standards, the spokesman added.


----------



## spoonie (Dec 12, 2001)

How many bombshells can our fragile sensibilities take?


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

Lwize said:


> My only hope now is that VW recalls my gasser MKV to adjust the emissions to improve MPG.
> 
> It could happen.


Wouldn't "understated mileage" mean they had estimated too low?


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

Rawcpoppa said:


> The article wasn't clear. Anyone knows if this is for Diesel engines?


Well, they don't come right out and say it, but.....
http://www.volkswagenag.com/content/vwcorp/info_center/en/news/2015/11/internen_untersuchungen.html


> Under the ongoing review of all processes and workflows in connection with diesel engines it was established that the CO[SUB]2[/SUB] levels and thus the fuel consumption figures for some models were set too low during the CO[SUB]2[/SUB] certification process. *The majority of the vehicles concerned have diesel engines.*


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

dmorrow said:


> He bought a 2015 TDI and isn't happy with VW and the latest events. Seems reasonable to me. Why does this upset you?


It doesn't at all, but he's the one with the sig that used to read, "I swore off GM and Chrysler before the bailouts" and now he's swore off another and wants the whole world to know with bumper stickers and a rebadge. It's sad and I'd like to see it escalate because no company is without scandal. Hence, if he digs hard enough, it's Huffy time. :laugh:


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

Turbio! said:


> No. Precisely the opposite. Only with the defeat enabled are they capable of passing EPA testing.
> 
> TDI will, in all likelihood, never return to the US market.


As long as there is any illegal software, the car can't be sold, and existing cars need a recall. Once that's fixed, the problem is to pass the EPA testing. That's more difficult, because EPA is changing the tests. But it's not impossible. The EPA has stated the expectation that the cars will be corrected, and that neither mileage nor power will be greatly reduced. I don't expect re-certifying to be quick, nor do I expect the new software for recalled vehicles to be quickly delivered.

The EPA screwed up the testing, and VW gamed them. This will take a while to resolve. But fixing the technical end isn't going to be that hard. Expensive, possibly. Remember VW still owns the Bluetec solution BMW and Mercedes are using.

Except for VW lying, this is just a recall for the emissions system. I don't want to understate the seriousness of the issue, but it's not really about the technology.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Blonde Guy said:


> As long as there is any illegal software, the car can't be sold, and existing cars need a recall. Once that's fixed, the problem is to pass the EPA testing. *That's more difficult, because EPA is changing the tests*. But it's not impossible. The EPA has stated the expectation that the cars will be corrected, and that *neither mileage nor power will be greatly reduced*. I don't expect re-certifying to be quick, nor do I expect the new software for recalled vehicles to be quickly delivered.
> 
> The EPA screwed up the testing, and VW gamed them. This will take a while to resolve.* But fixing the technical end isn't going to be that hard*. Expensive, possibly. Remember VW still owns the Bluetec solution BMW and Mercedes are using.
> 
> Except for VW lying, this is just a recall for the emissions system. I don't want to understate the seriousness of the issue, but it's not really about the technology.



EPA is changing the tests or is requiring the software program on the car to run both for the tests and in the real world and not switch between the two? I didn't hear they are changing the tests.
I don't think that the EPA cares about power, mileage reductions have happened in the past (Hyundai and Ford) so it is possible it will happen here. I don't think it will because VW for years bragged about how much more efficient their diesels were in the real world compared to the tests.
Technical side could be difficult if you include trying to figure out where to put a DEF tank on an existing car.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> :laugh:
> 
> Hopefully the markdown was sufficient enough to offset your future compliance/update related headaches


Yes it was.

I don't have emissions testing where I live, so as far as I'm concerned it's a non-issue. When I buy my yearly tabs all I do is pay the money and get the tabs. No showing proof of meeting emissions requirements. And I don't plan to sell the car so not worried about transferring ownership.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Blonde Guy said:


> As long as there is any illegal software, the car can't be sold, and existing cars need a recall.


Says who? I just bought a used Golf TDI without any problems. The dealer I bought it from and the WA DOL Dept didn't blink and eye at the purchase. Furthermore, the recall is not a life safety issue, so technically the vehicle owner is not required to have the recall performed.


Maybe I'm in the minority but this entire fiasco has been blown waaaay out of proportion driven mostly by the media coverage. There has been far too much speculation and assumptions made.


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)

Some thread participants upon learning of the 'third bombshell'...


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

Uberhare said:


> Says who? I just bought a used Golf TDI without any problems. The dealer I bought it from and the WA DOL Dept didn't blink and eye at the purchase. Furthermore, the recall is not a life safety issue, so technically the vehicle owner is not required to have the recall performed.
> 
> 
> Maybe I'm in the minority but this entire fiasco has been blown waaaay out of proportion driven mostly by the media coverage. There has been far too much speculation and assumptions made.


did you have to finance or were you able to buy outright?


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Uberhare said:


> Says who? I just bought a used Golf TDI without any problems. The dealer I bought it from and the WA DOL Dept didn't blink and eye at the purchase. Furthermore, *the recall is not a life safety issue, so technically the vehicle owner is not required to have the recall performed.
> 
> *
> Maybe I'm in the minority but this entire fiasco has been blown waaaay out of proportion driven mostly by the media coverage. There has been far too much speculation and assumptions made.


I have had a few cars with safety recalls, never done them.
Still was able to register, get inspected, IM tested, and drive them.

Both my VWs have that rear suspension safety recall, got letters on
both, never took them in. Neither were repaired due to a rear collision,
so no need to. 

So, there is no actual requirement on safety recalls either, at least not here.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

jreed1337 said:


> did you have to finance or were you able to buy outright?


I decided to take out a small loan to buy it. We could have paid cash for it but I don't want to depart from all of that cash at once so we decided to buy it via a loan and pay it off over 2-3 months. My CU had zero problems with the purchase. My insurance company also had zero problems with the vehicle. It was a deal I could not refuse.


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

Uberhare said:


> I decided to take out a small loan to buy it. We could have paid cash for it but I don't want to depart from all of that cash at once so we decided to buy it via a loan and pay it off over 2-3 months. My CU had zero problems with the purchase. My insurance company also had zero problems with the vehicle. It was a deal I could not refuse.


ah okay, mainly just curious if the dealer offered you financing on the car.


----------



## nyexx (Dec 12, 2014)

Uberhare said:


> I decided to take out a small loan to buy it. We could have paid cash for it but I don't want to depart from all of that cash at once so we decided to buy it via a loan and pay it off over 2-3 months. My CU had zero problems with the purchase. My insurance company also had zero problems with the vehicle. It was a deal I could not refuse.


Well you are either going to be happy you did what you did or angry in a few months when Volkswagen comes out with a solution to this problem.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

It's completely legal to buy used TDIs right now.
No state or county has any sort of ban or hold on TDI registrations.
No state or county is flunking them out of emissions tests.
And the cars have lienable value as collateral for a loan.

Bragging about having the balls to buy a TDI is pretty silly.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

Chilcoot said:


> Bragging about having the balls to buy a TDI is pretty silly.


I think if he's bragging about anything it's the deal he got because others are scared, but I'm not sure he's bragging at all.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

I think the only restriction on selling them came from VW and they don't want VW dealerships to sell new or CPO.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> I think if he's bragging about anything it's the deal he got because others are scared, but I'm not sure he's bragging at all.


This. Everyone is running around saying the VW world is going to end, TDI's are the devil, avoid at all costs, blah, blah, blah. I see a great opportunity to buy a high MPG fun car to drive for very little cost. If I'm bragging about anything it's that I'm going against the collective grain and doing something most people think is either stupid or crazy.

Fear is a powerful thing. Some are more fearful than others. And people like me just don't give a s**t....as the Honey Badger once said.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

dmorrow said:


> I think the only restriction on selling them came from VW and they don't want VW dealerships to sell new or CPO.


Yup. Other than maybe The People's Republik of Kalifornia, it's perfectly legal to buy and sell a TDI vehicle. Only the VW dealers have been told to stop sales, and this is strictly a volunteer type of thing.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Blonde Guy said:


> Remember VW still owns the Bluetec solution BMW and Mercedes are using.


BlueTec was developed and is owned by Daimler.


----------



## genjy (Aug 7, 2005)

Uberhare said:


> This. Everyone is running around saying the VW world is going to end, TDI's are the devil, avoid at all costs, blah, blah, blah. I see a great opportunity to buy a high MPG fun car to drive for very little cost. If I'm bragging about anything it's that I'm going against the collective grain and doing something most people think is either stupid or crazy.
> 
> Fear is a powerful thing. Some are more fearful than others. And people like me just don't give a s**t....as the Honey Badger once said.


I am glad that I have no interest in owning a diesel vehicle at all, so I am not sucked into this kind of TDI gamble. :laugh:


----------



## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> BlueTec was developed and is owned by Daimler.


:thumbup: and you can bet they are going to give VW a friends and family discount since they will now need it to fix these cars. :vampire:


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

DasCC said:


> :thumbup: and you can bet they are going to give VW a friends and family discount since they will now need it to fix these cars. :vampire:



I can't tell if there was sarcasm in the friends and family discount part but I would not be shocked if news came out that VW is receiving help from Mercedes and maybe even BMW on how to fix this issue. At the end of the day, I think the general consumer sees VW as just another German car (as well as Audi, Mercedes, and BMW) so I don't think it is so far fetched to think that if the general consumer thinks a german car company is untrustworthy, they may equate that same thinking to all german car companies.


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

Not surprised that more issues are coming up in terms of emissions. VW is under the microscope because they're an easy target at the moment. Had it been any other car manufacturer, the same script would be followed. Call me crazy, but I still think that VW will make it out alive from all of this.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

vbora01 said:


> Not surprised that more issues are coming up in terms of emissions. VW is under the microscope because they're an easy target at the moment. Had it been any other car manufacturer, the same script would be followed. Call me crazy, but I still think that VW will make it out alive from all of this.


Agreed. They still make good cars and they are too big to fail. The German Government will bail them out in the worst case.


----------



## nm+ (Jan 6, 2006)

Meanwhile in Wolfsburg
http://m.imgur.com/UfWPUrk
(Stop sale on 1.8T and 2.0T starts tomorrow. Sorry bout that VW dealership.)


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> It doesn't at all, but he's the one with the sig that used to read, "I swore off GM and Chrysler before the bailouts" and now he's swore off another and wants the whole world to know with bumper stickers and a rebadge. It's sad and I'd like to see it escalate because no company is without scandal. Hence, if he digs hard enough, it's Huffy time. :laugh:


I used to be a GM and Mopar guy. Family, friends and I had way too many craptastic cars as a result. So I swore off them. And *then* they got an undeserved taxpayer bailout  

I've been a VW guy for 15 years, through thick and thin. Then I got a Monday/Friday Jetta (a model which is already the Monday/Friday runt of the VW litter). Then Dieselgate. Then moar Dieselgate. So now I'm swearing off them  

It's not about digging into the past. It's about my experience with a brand. I can only take so much s**t for so long from a company to which I used to willingly, gladly give money and word-of-mouth advertising.

PS: You're still on my "ignore" list :thumbdown:


----------



## gonzo08452 (Apr 17, 2006)

Lol. I was officially off of VW long before this nightmare began. My last was 06 Passat. No more for me.


----------



## Chmeeee (Jun 24, 2002)

nm+ said:


> Meanwhile in Wolfsburg
> http://m.imgur.com/UfWPUrk
> (Stop sale on 1.8T and 2.0T starts tomorrow. Sorry bout that VW dealership.)


For real? Do they have any cars left that they CAN sell?


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

Chmeeee said:


> For real? Do they have any cars left that they CAN sell?


Time to move the used cars :laugh:


----------



## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

nm+ said:


> Meanwhile in Wolfsburg
> http://m.imgur.com/UfWPUrk
> (Stop sale on 1.8T and 2.0T starts tomorrow. Sorry bout that VW dealership.)


damn.... all thats gonna be left are the CC's and Tiguan that have the Gen 1 motor...


----------



## rwp (Aug 24, 2012)

nm+ said:


> Meanwhile in Wolfsburg
> http://m.imgur.com/UfWPUrk
> (Stop sale on 1.8T and 2.0T starts tomorrow. Sorry bout that VW dealership.)


Holy crap.


----------



## Peloton25 (Apr 1, 2001)

nm+ said:


> Meanwhile in Wolfsburg
> http://m.imgur.com/UfWPUrk
> (Stop sale on 1.8T and 2.0T starts tomorrow. Sorry bout that VW dealership.)


Wow - that is the definition of poor timing. 

At this rate Volkswagen is going to need to keep feeding their dealers the discretionary cash in order to keep the doors open and the lights on.

You also have to wonder at what point some dealers might consider legal action against them for harm to the franchised business assuming this gets worse before it gets better? Latest headlines from all fronts are not promising. 

>8^)
ER


----------



## iLucifer (Feb 13, 2003)

Peloton25 said:


> Wow - that is the definition of poor timing.
> 
> At this rate Volkswagen is going to need to keep feeding their dealers the discretionary cash in order to keep the doors open and the lights on.
> 
> ...


VW Emissions Issues Spread to Gasoline Cars
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ons-woes-deepen-as-800-000-more-cars-affected

from above news link "late Tuesday, Porsche’s North American division said it would voluntarily discontinue sales of diesel-powered Cayennes from model years 2014 to 2016 until further notice"

Whoa VW is getting hit hard...


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Chilcoot said:


> *It's completely legal to buy used TDIs right now.*
> No state or county has any sort of ban or hold on TDI registrations.
> No state or county is flunking them out of emissions tests.
> And the cars have lienable value as collateral for a loan.
> ...


Legal from private owners, and other used car lots and dealers, but
NOT from a VW dealer. Legal to buy, yes, except that no VW
dealer is allowed to sell them, new or used. 



nm+ said:


> Meanwhile in Wolfsburg
> http://m.imgur.com/UfWPUrk
> (Stop sale on 1.8T and 2.0T starts tomorrow. Sorry bout that VW dealership.)


CERTAIN models, not all, and not used.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...27ee4b0411d306ed652?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34712435



BBC News said:


> Volkswagen says 800,000 cars may have false CO2 levels
> 
> Shares in VW have dropped after it reported "irregularities" in carbon dioxide emissions levels, which could affect around 800,000 cars in Europe.
> 
> ...


Hahaha, it never seems to end. First, small diesels. Then, the 6 cylinder diesels. Now, gas motors.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

Does anyone happen to know if this has spread to the gasoline cars yet?


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

McBanagon said:


> Does anyone happen to know if this has spread to the gasoline cars yet?


I don't think so. Haven't seen any talk about it anywhere, yet... on this page.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Maybe the price of a low mileage CPO Touareg will come down to a realistic level now.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

MCTB said:


> Maybe the price of a low mileage CPO Touareg will come down to a realistic level now.


I would say so, based on news on the topic.



Reuters said:


> The one TDI model left on most VW dealer lots - the big Touareg V6 crossover - now comes with some of the heaviest price cuts, with a Houston dealer offering $11,400 off the sticker price of 2016 models and nearly $15,000 off 2015 models.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

MCTB said:


> Hahaha, it never seems to end. First, small diesels. Then, the 6 cylinder diesels. Now, gas motors.


wow...

im sure it was just a few rogue engineers  :laugh:



AZGolf said:


> I would say so, based on news on the topic.


nice, but... still not worth it IMO

who the hell are you going to sell that to in a few years without taking a total bath on it


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

nm+ said:


> Meanwhile in Wolfsburg
> http://m.imgur.com/UfWPUrk
> (Stop sale on 1.8T and 2.0T starts tomorrow. Sorry bout that VW dealership.)


So what you're telling me is that with a stop sale on the 2.0 TDI, 1.8T, 2.0T, and possible (likely?) stop-sale on the 3.0 TDI, that Mazda finally has a shot at beating VW in November sales?


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> nice, but... still not worth it IMO
> 
> who the hell are you going to sell that to in a few years without taking a total bath on it



The money off is attractive but still, I would not buy new. There are a bunch of sub 45k mile 2010-2012s CPO out there. Looking at them, they do seem cheaper than I once remembered them to be. Ill keep watching. They are even offering 1.99% for 60 months for CPO. 




Stop sale on all of their motors. Hilarious. I cannot believe it.


----------



## d.tek (Nov 28, 2004)

Part of me wants to buy a ****ton of stock, the other part is skeptical that they will recover from this with the new news of gasoline engines and camshaft issues.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

It's only a matter of time before this start effecting the value of Routans.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> wow...
> 
> im sure it was just a few rogue engineers  :laugh:
> 
> ...


All comes down to what you actually pay for it and then somewhat dependent on how long you plan to keep it.



> Retail price discounts range up to $7,850 on the 2015 Passat, according to an online survey of VW dealers on Wednesday. Discounts of up to $7,290 are being offered on the 2015 Jetta and up to $5,625 on the 2016 Jetta. Battery electric models such as the e-Golf have discounts of up to $11,000, while gasoline-electric models such as the Jetta Hybrid have prices slashed by up to $6,000.


If my original plan was to buy a 2015 Jetta and keep it until the point it was worth $7-8K, then getting an extra $5k off (planned on some discount before) looks pretty good. When I had planned on it being worth $7k it's not like after this issue, years down the road it will only be worth $2k. Then this whole thing may have blown over by then and it might be still worth the $7k-$8k I had planned with the extra $5k being just a bonus.

I guess the main point is I would definitely buy a new VW at the right price. The "right price" is debatable.

They are probably also dropping lease prices significantly and this would remove the risk of what the future values might be. Again, might be worth looking at.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

Does VW prioritize fixing the 1.8t and 2.0t engines or prioritize the emission problems :laugh:


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

noatonement said:


> Does VW prioritize fixing the 1.8t and 2.0t engines or prioritize the emission problems :laugh:


I think all of the Engineers that were working on "New Product Development" can be moved over to the issues for the time being. I would expect this has priority over the new Jetta or any other model they had planned. 


Guessing the people working on the GTI R400 aren't sending a lot of e-mails showing their new work....


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

So.... um..... can they still sell the eGolf?


----------



## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

gonzo08452 said:


> Lol. I was officially off of VW long before this nightmare began. My last was 06 Passat. No more for me.


----------



## Shmi (Mar 25, 2009)

Didn't see it mentioned during my brief skimming of the last page or two but as of last night Audi has also issued a stop-sale on all V6 TDI equipped vehicles.



http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=43925793&postcount=534



> From: Audi Customer Protection
> 
> Urgent – Stop Sale Notification on Audi 3.0 liter V6 TDI Vehicles
> 
> ...



Saw that this morning, and then got the same email in my inbox.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Shmi said:


> Didn't see it mentioned during my brief skimming of the last page or two but as of last night Audi has also issued a stop-sale on all V6 TDI equipped vehicles.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The V6 diesel cars do not have the cheat BUT have a different software thing going on. VW says it is not the diesel cheat but a different undisclosed bit of coding.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

dmorrow said:


> I guess the main point is I would definitely buy a new VW at the right price. The "right price" is debatable.


I have an idea of "right" price for a CPO Touareg. It looks like it might happen with the values dropping.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

nm+ said:


> Meanwhile in Wolfsburg
> http://m.imgur.com/UfWPUrk
> (Stop sale on 1.8T and 2.0T starts tomorrow. Sorry bout that VW dealership.)


i think that would be the 2.0 (aka 2.sl0w), not the 2.0T. for instance, notice how the 1.8T has the T next to it? it's telling you the exact engine involved.


----------



## Goingnowherefast (Dec 7, 2014)

Chmeeee said:


> For real? Do they have any cars left that they CAN sell?


But really though. This is absurd. They can't sell the TDI's, 3.0 TDI's, 1.4 Gas, 1.8T Gas, or 2.0T Gas. VW is taking the shaft hard now and the way my Dad put it "They are in some deep **** now"


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Goingnowherefast said:


> But really though. This is absurd. They can't sell the TDI's, 3.0 TDI's, 1.4 Gas, 1.8T Gas, or 2.0T Gas. VW is taking the shaft hard now and the way my Dad put it "They are in some deep **** now"


why can't they sell the 1.4T?


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

GoHomeBroke said:


> why can't they sell the 1.4T?


Because it's connected to the crappy Jetta.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

GoHomeBroke said:


> i think that would be the 2.0 (aka 2.sl0w), not the 2.0T. for instance, notice how the 1.8T has the T next to it? it's telling you the exact engine involved.


I've compiled an exhaustive list of MY 2015-2016 VW models sold in the United States with a naturally aspirated 2.0L engine:

_(This page intentionally left blank)_


----------



## alleghenyman (Nov 20, 2003)

This pathetic. I'd never buy a car with such cynical engineering. Manufacturers are supposed to self-test for crash safety too.


----------



## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

ByronLLN said:


> I've compiled an exhaustive list of MY 2015-2016 VW models sold in the United States with a naturally aspirated 2.0L engine:
> 
> _(This page intentionally left blank)_


:laugh:

Well this blows, my dad was wanting to pull the trigger on a TDI Q5/Q5/ Touareg.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

My mom just bought a Q3. Thank God for "old" engine tech, I guess?


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

McBanagon said:


> It's only a matter of time before this start effecting the value of Routans.


Can they go negative?


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

ByronLLN said:


> I've compiled an exhaustive list of MY 2015-2016 VW models sold in the United States with a naturally aspirated 2.0L engine:
> 
> _(This page intentionally left blank)_


The 2015 Jetta S was still 2.Slow


----------



## BeBop! (Jun 18, 2009)

This just keeps getting better and better. I wonder if my first gen 2.0T is affected...


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

Lwize said:


> The 2015 Jetta S was still 2.Slow


So it was, however, it would not be equipped with a HPFP.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

ByronLLN said:


> I've compiled an exhaustive list of MY 2015-2016 VW models sold in the United States with a naturally aspirated 2.0L engine:
> 
> _(This page intentionally left blank)_


why put the T after the 1.8, then? they only sell one version of it, and it's got a turbo. there's two versions of the 2 liter gas engine, turbo and non turbo. i hardly think such important info put out to every VW dealer regarding the inability to sell cars would not be proofread multiple times, especially when you consider the **** storm VW is going through right now. my money is on it being the 2.sl0w.


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

GoHomeBroke said:


> i think that would be the 2.0 (aka 2.sl0w), not the 2.0T. for instance, notice how the 1.8T has the T next to it? it's telling you the exact engine involved.


I agree, there is some confusion. Would make more sense for it to be the 2.0T though because it likely shares more with the 1.8T?

The easiest list might be the engines they _can_ sell? 2.0slow, 1.4T & VR6?


----------



## intercedeGLI (Sep 8, 2002)

MCTB said:


> The V6 diesel cars do not have the cheat BUT have a different software thing going on. VW says it is not the diesel cheat but a different undisclosed bit of coding.


It's a cheat and not just undeclared emissions software. They're lying like they did from mid-2014 through September of this year. 

EPA explanation. 









http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-2015-11-02.pdf Page 4


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

GoHomeBroke said:


> my money is on it being the 2.sl0w.


The recall says model year 2015 & 2016, and the point is that there was no 2.0 NA in those model years. The reports say it affects 92,000 cars, which suggests it is a pretty big recall given that VW has only sold about 300,000 cars total this year and many had engines other than the 1.8 & 2.0. I'm thinking it's the turbo version of the 1.8 & 2.0 because of the fact it affects 92,000 cars. I can easily picture how a third of the cars they've sold in the last year have had the 1.8T and 2.0T engines. However I don't think they sold 92,000 with the 1.8T alone, as there was no non-turbo 2.0 in that model year range.


----------



## counterpoint (Mar 6, 2003)

Lots of confusion out there. 

The below list includes all the affected vehicles, but not all of these vehicles are affected.


2015 Jetta 1.8T
2015 Jetta 2.0T
2016 Jetta 1.8T
2016 Jetta 2.0T
2015 Beetle/Beetle Convertible 1.8T
2015 Beetle/Beetle Convertible 2.0T 
2015 Golf 1.8T 
2016 Golf 1.8T
2015 Passat 1.8T


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> *The recall says model year 2015 & 2016, and the point is that there was no 2.0 NA in those model years.* The reports say it affects 92,000 cars, which suggests it is a pretty big recall given that VW has only sold about 300,000 cars total this year and many had engines other than the 1.8 & 2.0. I'm thinking it's the turbo version of the 1.8 & 2.0 because of the fact it affects 92,000 cars. I can easily picture how a third of the cars they've sold in the last year have had the 1.8T and 2.0T engines. However I don't think they sold 92,000 with the 1.8T alone, a*s there was no non-turbo 2.0 in that model year range.*


2015 Jetta S 2.Slow

It existed. Still does on some lots.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

counterpoint said:


> Lots of confusion out there.
> 
> The below list includes all the affected vehicles, but not all of these vehicles are affected.
> 
> ...


source?

i'm asking because if it is the 2.0T, and not the 2.sl0w, then why isn't the GTI or GLI on this list? it's the exact same engine as the one in that Beetle you listed. 

how i'm reading it is:

there is a stop sale on cars because of a cam problem. meaning it could pose a hazard to the driver. 
they only want to hold off on cars with the affected engines. meaning they'll give the most accurate information possible. 
they only sell one version of a 1.8 liter engine, and it doesn't come without a turbo. 
there are two versions of the 2 liter gas engine, one with and one without.
why would they put 1.8*T* when there's only one version of that engine and not include it on the 2.0 listed as affected?


----------



## spoonie (Dec 12, 2001)

GoHomeBroke said:


> source?
> 
> i'm asking because if it is the 2.0T, and not the 2.sl0w, then why isn't the GTI or GLI on this list? it's the exact same engine as the one in that Beetle you listed.
> 
> ...


My dealer sent me the same list (Canada).

Same as above - these are the cars affected, but not all of them have the issue.


----------



## Jouko Haapanen (Apr 30, 2001)

Yep. Looking at our inventory...as an example, of the 2015 Golf and Golf Sportwagon models with 1.8T engines - approximately half of our inventory units seem to be affected. So these are vehicles from within the listed models, but not all cars within the list are affected. 



spoonie said:


> My dealer sent me the same list (Canada).
> 
> Same as above - these are the cars affected, but not all of them have the issue.


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

This mornings CBS news cared more about Chipotle than the 10 second news on VW's woes.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Car Problems said:


> This mornings CBS news cared more about Chipotle than the 10 second news on VW's woes.


Honestly, so do I. Chipotle is delicious.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

MCTB said:


> Honestly, so do I. Chipotle is delicious.


Taco Bell executives must be celebrating.


----------



## iLucifer (Feb 13, 2003)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Taco Bell executives must be celebrating.


yep one taco bell executives party so hard that he beat up an uber driver lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtJVbsHIj9o


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Taco Bell executives must be celebrating.


They are. When they arent beating up Uber drivers and getting maced. 

Taco Bell executive charged in attack on Uber driver
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-taco-bell-executive-charged-uber-20151103-story.html


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Taco Bell executives must be celebrating.


I'm going to let this joke go over my head too.

Has anyone heard about the Uber thing yet?


----------



## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

What 2016 models can a customer currently purchase? a 1.4t, a Tiguan or ages v6 Touareg? 

So the 3l TDI, do actually have an emissions defeat software? Not just a misunderstanding between the EPA like vw had been saying on monday? 

Have there been any updates on solutions? to both he 2.0 and 3.0?


----------



## intercedeGLI (Sep 8, 2002)

71DubBugBug said:


> So the 3l TDI, do actually have an emissions defeat software? Not just a misunderstanding between the EPA like vw had been saying on monday?


It's been posted a few times over the last couple pages already. 

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-2015-11-02.pdf < Page 4. 

They detected when the car was being tested, increased emissions controls, then turned them off when the test was over. The cars ended up polluting up to 9x more during normal operation than in test mode. They cheated.


----------



## 2 doors (Jun 18, 2003)

Silly_me said:


> So.... um..... can they still sell the eGolf?


No. e-Golfs have been found to produce 10-20 times the amount of emissions they are rated at.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

2 doors said:


> No. e-Golfs have been found to produce 10-20 times the amount of emissions they are rated at.


Hydrogen gas from the battery charging cycle, no doubt.


So, here in the States, basically no TDI models, no 1.8T, but yes to the 2.0T powered models?


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

That status bit, yo.


Holy poop. This is just amazing. I am completely entertained at this point. Basically sitting around the fire with Maximum Bob and some pitchforks, waiting for the Piech-piercing party to begin.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

VW sales numbers for October weren't too bad (for the right price they will sell) - 

http://autoweek.com/article/vw-diesel-scandal/volkswagen-avoids-setback-hefty-deals?utm_source=DailyDrive20151104&utm_medium=enewsletter&utm_term=headline-center&utm_content=body&utm_campaign=awdailydrive



> *Volkswagen avoids setback with hefty deals*
> 
> NOVEMBER 3, 2015
> 
> ...


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

atomicalex said:


> That status bit, yo.
> 
> 
> Holy poop. This is just amazing. I am completely entertained at this point. Basically sitting around the fire with Maximum Bob and some pitchforks, waiting for the Piech-piercing party to begin.


http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a27197/bob-lutz-vw-diesel-fiasco/

WELL worth a read.

What's your take on that status bit, for those of us who don't speak engineer?


----------



## RacingManiac (Mar 19, 2011)

GoHomeBroke said:


> there are two versions of the 2 liter gas engine, one with and one without.


There are actually 3 version of the 2.0 gas engine. 2.slow, 2.0T in the GLI/Beetle Turbo, and the 2.0T in the GTI. The GLI/Beetle Turbo engine doesn't have valvelift and is basically a decontented GTI engine. GTI engine is the same one used in most Audi currently. 

Actually there might be 4 versions since I've no idea whats currently in the CC or Tiguan....

Maybe the camshaft used in the GTI/A3 version of the EA888.3 with the valve lift is not the same as the version in the GLI...


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

Well, I think it's pretty safe to say that USA VW sales won't be up much in November. Even aside from the fact that they hardly have anything left to sell, their inventories are much less favorable than they were in October. Golf is a fairly hot seller, but not many left on lots now, inventory down. They were giving away leftover 2015 Passats with huge discounts, and those are just about depleted from stock. 

There is a pretty large dealer near me, and their inventory is all messed up. A ton of base Jettas but almost no mid-level or high end trims. Hardly any non-wagon Golfs. A few Sportwagens. Fairly depleted stock of Tiguans but a moderate number left. Just about zero Passats. A bunch of black GTIs, so a great thing if you like that color. Looking at other stores around here, same thing. Stock levels are way down, and of the volume products.

If I was working at that store, I'd be real nervous about November and December. Actually I might be nervous period, given that VW can't seem to keep from stepping in their own sh%$ lately.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Can you imagine what production planning is going through! "What the hell are we going to do with all these castings for TDI engines?" "How about all these other TDI specific parts?"


----------



## surefooted (May 21, 2001)

d.tek said:


> Part of me wants to buy a ****ton of stock, the other part is skeptical that they will recover from this with the new news of gasoline engines and camshaft issues.


Buying stock now would be stupid. VW's stock will drop even further due no one knowing how far this scandal goes and THEN how much it will cost in total.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Maximum_Download said:


> http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a27197/bob-lutz-vw-diesel-fiasco/
> 
> WELL worth a read.
> 
> What's your take on that status bit, for those of us who don't speak engineer?


Interesting article, of course his opinion but possibly correct. The "do it or your fired" is generally a pretty poor way of doing things and long term, after enough threats, people get where they don't care. Also difficult to fire a complete department if it just can be done.


----------



## iLucifer (Feb 13, 2003)

surefooted said:


> Buying stock now would be stupid. VW's stock will drop even further due no one knowing how far this scandal goes and THEN how much it will cost in total.


short the stock if you think it gona drop....


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

2 doors said:


> No. e-Golfs have been found to produce 10-20 times the amount of emissions they are rated at.


Don't laugh. 

The way things are stacking up for VW, it won't be long before regulators find something amiss with the e-Golf, like the crushed unicorns used in the batteries.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

surefooted said:


> Buying stock now would be stupid. VW's stock will drop even further due no one knowing how far this scandal goes and THEN how much it will cost in total.


Market decided on the current stock price and impossible to say where it is going. If current stock holders thought it was going lower they would have sold. It is also possible the panic and it being worth less than half of what it was worth a few months ago are far overblown.


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

Maximum_Download said:


> http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a27197/bob-lutz-vw-diesel-fiasco/
> 
> WELL worth a read.
> 
> What's your take on that status bit, for those of us who don't speak engineer?


Mostly anything Bob Lutz writes is worth a read


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

PlatinumGLS said:


> Mostly anything Bob Lutz writes is worth a read


Bob's been biting my Dieselgate speculative postings! :banghead::laugh:

And BTW... VW didn't invent ego-maniacal executives ("leaders") running the org with an iron fist. Ask me how I know. It's been around for ages. Heck, I'll be damned if any of us who have lived corporate cultures haven't experienced such threats. :facepalm:


----------



## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

BeBop! said:


> This just keeps getting better and better. I wonder if my first gen 2.0T is affected...


no. yours is the EA113, a bit different than the Gen 3 EA888



RacingManiac said:


> There are actually 3 version of the 2.0 gas engine. 2.slow, 2.0T in the GLI/Beetle Turbo, and the 2.0T in the GTI. The GLI/Beetle Turbo engine doesn't have valvelift and is basically a decontented GTI engine. *GTI engine is the same one used in most Audi currently.
> 
> *Actually there might be 4 versions since I've no idea whats currently in the CC or Tiguan....
> 
> Maybe the camshaft used in the GTI/A3 version of the EA888.3 with the valve lift is not the same as the version in the GLI...


No quite. Only the A3 uses the same EA888 Gen3 as the MQB GTI. Q3 uses the Gen 1 EA888 (same as the CC and Tiguan) and the rest of the lineup uses the Gen2 EA888 2.0T


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Maximum_Download said:


> What's your take on that status bit, for those of us who don't speak engineer?


OMG, this part is awesome... The status bit is similar to the readiness cycle testing bits. You turn the car on and the cycle starts. As it knocks off each particular test, it flips a bit to pass or fail. In this case, a readiness bit was set for time. The time cycle runs, and then the bit flips. In this case, after 1731s (or whatever it was). Had it run for 2000 seconds, or some other time unassociated with the cycle, it would have been written off as just a miscellaneous bit. But in this case, it's like someone wanted it to be found. 

Which lends itself so generously to the engineers-under-the-gun theory, because the only way to get back at management for such an edict would be to make sure it got uncovered eventually. Perfect crimes aren't crimes because they are never identified as such. A perfect cheat would still be under the radar. Kind of like Lance Armstrong never having been caught. This was written specifically because the engineers knew that if anyone even cursorily looked at it, flags would go up all over the place.



dmorrow said:


> The "do it or your fired" is generally a pretty poor way of doing things and long term, after enough threats, people get where they don't care. Also difficult to fire a complete department if it just can be done.


Uh, well, no. You have a good job, and your culture is highly demanding of talent. Your organization throws down the gauntlet once ina while, and you rise up. There are tons of interns ready to take your place if you don't, and you like your cushy job. So you figure out how to get it done, even if it's not really the way you would do it if you were in charge. 

Whole departments get fired all the time. The US is quite famous for that, not sure why Germany wouldn't be capable of doing it. Their love for out-of-date American management practices is astounding. :sly:



uncleho said:


> Heck, I'll be damned if any of us who have lived corporate cultures haven't experienced such threats. :facepalm:


Exactly. But I'm the one Bob is poaching. na na nanana!


----------



## TangoRed (Sep 7, 2005)

atomicalex said:


> Whole departments get fired all the time. The US is quite famous for that, not sure why Germany wouldn't be capable of doing it. Their love for out-of-date American management practices is astounding. :sly:


You must've never tried to fire someone in Germany before. It's almost as hard as trying to fire someone in France or certain [French] areas of Canada.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

TangoRed said:


> You must've never tried to fire someone in Germany before. It's almost as hard as trying to fire someone in France or certain [French] areas of Canada.


It's way easier to eliminate the entire group than to fire one person, actually. A whole team is just business. One person is indeed a mess.


----------



## TangoRed (Sep 7, 2005)

atomicalex said:


> It's way easier to eliminate the entire group than to fire one person, actually. A whole team is just business. One person is indeed a mess.


Ah thanks for the insight. I've never had to eliminate a team so I am ignorant in that regard.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

TangoRed said:


> You must've never tried to fire someone in Germany before. It's almost as hard as trying to fire someone in France or certain [French] areas of Canada.


Truth. 

I explained Illinois' Right To Work laws to an employee here who was visiting from our German office. She was absolutely white when I was done.

"It's really that easy?"

"Yep. I could be marched out of here in 1 hour for any reason at all. You have zero job security. None."

Plus, the turnover in Germany takes a lot longer. I believe it's 3 months notice there vs. our standard 2 weeks, and there are contractual obligations the employer has to fulfill (I believe they get serverence, but I am not sure about this).

Its far more common to simply move people into other roles than it is to terminate. It DOES happen, but not nearly as often as it does here in the US.


----------



## Vadim08 (Mar 30, 2014)

Just leased my 2015 Jetta 1.8T around this time last year. Was a Hyundai fan before but to try something else. I still enjoy driving my Jetta but with all this news coming out, it's a bit tough to stay optimistic.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

So, VW lied about TDIs - all of them now, it seems - and now the bulk of their gas motors were also lied about. Since VW is only 2% of the US market, maybe they'll just leave?


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

So they did goose the gas ones too eh? I guess that means the fire sales they had, the friends and family incentives, were meant as a means to get as many off the lot as fast as they can while they can, because they knew more shoes were going to fall.


----------



## nyexx (Dec 12, 2014)

jnm2.0t said:


> So they did goose the gas ones too eh? I guess that means the fire sales they had, the friends and family incentives, were meant as a means to get as many off the lot as fast as they can while they can, because they knew more shoes were going to fall.


They lied about the gas ones too? 

I called this 2 pages ago :laugh:


----------



## manol2 (Mar 8, 2010)

Well, I just traded my 2013 GTI for a 2014 Touareg VR6, and I was really happy with the price ( low 20's). I guess the gas VW's are going down quite a bit too. On the other end the trade in on the GTI was exactly what I wanted - go figure


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

g-man_ae said:


> So, VW lied about TDIs - all of them now, it seems - and now the bulk of their gas motors were also lied about. Since VW is only 2% of the US market, maybe they'll just leave?


So the story is still developing in regards to the 3.0TDIs, but since we hate VW we can confirm its true.


I don't understand where you get that the bulk of their gas motors were lied about though? From everything I am reading, the 800k cars with CO2 reporting issues were based in Europe and the only Gas engine involved is the 1.4 liter engine. The CO2 issue has not been confirmed for any US model.

I assume the bulk of their engines, you equate a cam shaft recall for the 1.8T and 2.0T engines as the same thing as lying about emissions. In that case, hopefully every car company that has a recall for any of their cars just leaves. I understand you hate VW, but if you are going to post about the on-going issues at least fact check so you don't start spreading false information to people that are looking for relevant, real news on the ongoing VW scandal.


http://www.autonews.com/article/201...en-says-800000-cars-may-have-false-co2-levels


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

g-man_ae said:


> So, VW lied about TDIs - all of them now, it seems - and now the bulk of their gas motors were also lied about. Since VW is only 2% of the US market, maybe they'll just leave?


This really has hurt your feelings, huh? So, did you do your due diligence and investigate every auto manufacturer on the planet so you know who to swear off next? Study hard enough and it's a Huffy or public transit. :laugh:


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> This really has hurt your feelings, huh? So, did you do your due diligence and investigate every auto manufacturer on the planet so you know who to swear off next? Study hard enough and it's a Huffy or public transit. :laugh:


Has The Onion parodied Dieselgate, yet?


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> Exactly. But I'm the one Bob is poaching. na na nanana!


Damn it, woman! 

BTW... ask him if he can use somebody who can... can... can speculate based on experience. Or needs a writer for an Auto Industry sit-com. :laugh:


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

atomicalex said:


> OMG, this part is awesome... The status bit is similar to the readiness cycle testing bits. You turn the car on and the cycle starts. As it knocks off each particular test, it flips a bit to pass or fail. In this case, a readiness bit was set for time. The time cycle runs, and then the bit flips. In this case, after 1731s (or whatever it was). Had it run for 2000 seconds, or some other time unassociated with the cycle, it would have been written off as just a miscellaneous bit. But in this case, it's like someone wanted it to be found.
> 
> Which lends itself so generously to the engineers-under-the-gun theory, because the only way to get back at management for such an edict would be to make sure it got uncovered eventually. Perfect crimes aren't crimes because they are never identified as such. A perfect cheat would still be under the radar. Kind of like Lance Armstrong never having been caught. This was written specifically because the engineers knew that if anyone even cursorily looked at it, flags would go up all over the place.


The article by Bob Lutz is speculative but I daresay he is probably right. Dictatorial management that is incapable of listening is a recipe for trouble.

And ... atomicalex is obviously speculating about why that bit was set to 1731 s (one second longer than the test procedure) and that number being pretty much an invitation to be found out ... a ticking time bomb waiting to blow up in management's face ... but I daresay this could very well be right also.

Back in the 1990s when the trucking industry went through this, they didn't use a binary switchover, they just gradually dialed back the emission controls over a lengthy period of time; I don't know how long it was but in a trucking application it could very well be hours.

Software people have the upper hand ... given the right management attitude, they can bury time-bomb logic very easily and I can tell you how this probably went down: A whole department was under the gun to make this work; the code writer likely went out for a beer with the department manager and had the "you know what we could do" meeting (face to face, not in email) knowing that the manager would have to approve it; they got it done and covered their tracks.

This is contingent on the emissions validation department also being complicit in what the software department had done ... or being incompetent and never actually doing any real world road-testing emissions validation. A proper real-world testing regimen - like what all the other manufacturers do - would have uncovered this.

That off-premises lunch meeting over beer probably involved a few people with the clear understanding to not say a word and not put a thing in writing about it ... and I'm quite sure these people would have known the situation would eventually be uncovered.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> This really has hurt your feelings, huh? So, did you do your due diligence and investigate every auto manufacturer on the planet so you know who to swear off next? Study hard enough and it's a Huffy or public transit. :laugh:


I think he will have to walk. Huffy has recalls too. And public transportation? Who knows what brand of bus will show up and it would have driven away before he could investigate it for recalls.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

GoFaster said:


> This is contingent on the emissions validation department also being complicit in what the software department had done ... or being incompetent and never actually doing any real world road-testing emissions validation. A proper real-world testing regimen - like what all the other manufacturers do - would have uncovered this.


What's most concerning to me is that everyone in powertrain had to have known, not just a few people. The cars ran in gross polluter mode _all the time_ which means that every single powertrain engineer was fully aware that they were doing every bit of testing, durability, performance, NVH, and any other kind of testing while looking at the ECU maps and seeing it was in gross polluter mode. Things like intentionally keeping the exhaust temperature below the point at which the lean NOx trap is effective, reducing the duty cycle of the EGR, reducing the pressure of the fuel rail - those are things anybody and everybody who looked at how the car was running would see in the first few minutes of observing operation. It would be OBVIOUS.

"Hey, this thing never gets the exhaust hot enough to light off the NOx lean-burn trap."

"Yeah I know, that's on purpose. Just ignore it, orders from the big boss."

"Hey I'm evaluating the EGR durability and it looks like it's never getting used on the test cars. The ECU code shows it way under-utilized."

"Yeah I know, that's on purpose. Just ignore it, orders from the big boss."

Seriously, it's been 15 years since I looked at programmed ECU maps and although ECU programming itself can be complex, real-world testing was pretty simple. You looked for the EGT, good values from the O2 sensors, and so on. You know how you always see test cars being driven in the public and they have like 6 laptops and 20 extra wiring harnesses all over the interior? That's for monitoring the performance of everything. There's no possible way that everybody at the company didn't know that the real world operation of the car was to basically shut down the emissions controls. It would have been obvious all over the place when monitoring the cars when driving on the test tracks or in the public road evaluation.

Everybody had to have known except maybe the guys working on the stereos, soft-touch dashboard materials, etc. No way could this have gone through based on only a small group of people knowing about it.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

^ 100% true. But then ... it has been common practice in Europe to "tune to the test" (NEDC) and this is why a wide variety of manufacturers are now being found out for having real-world emissions much higher than the certification limits (and VW wasn't the worst offender!). So it would have been considered normal to have higher real-world emissions than what was scored during the NEDC. I suspect real-world emission monitoring wasn't done on the "you don't want to know" basis, and the calibration people knew that. Just get it to pass NEDC and sod whatever it does in the real world. Same approach for the EPA ... except that's not how the EPA wants it done.

In no way does this make it right! The product-validation / calibration department (as a whole) was either incompetent, negligent, or complicit - or maybe some combination. All are bad.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> Uh, well, no. You have a good job, and your culture is highly demanding of talent. Your organization throws down the gauntlet once ina while, and you rise up. There are tons of interns ready to take your place if you don't, and you like your cushy job. So you figure out how to get it done, even if it's not really the way you would do it if you were in charge.
> 
> Whole departments get fired all the time. The US is quite famous for that, not sure why Germany wouldn't be capable of doing it. Their love for out-of-date American management practices is astounding. :sly:


#1, if there are "tons of interns ready to take your place" your value in the organization is pretty low. The engine development group at VW isn't worried about the interns replacing them. 

#2, there are many things that can't be done quickly and easily (see VW Diesel's not meeting requirements). Obviously they couldn't figure it out with the constraints given as I am sure this wasn't their first choice.

#3, if you throw down the gauntlet with a threat you will have to follow through or your threats will become meaningless. Reality is very few departments get fired as the person in charge better have a plan to operate the department and company without them.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

You've never worked for Germans....


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

GoFaster said:


> The article by Bob Lutz is speculative but I daresay he is probably right. Dictatorial management that is incapable of listening is a recipe for trouble.
> 
> And ... atomicalex is obviously speculating about why that bit was set to 1731 s (one second longer than the test procedure) and that number being pretty much an invitation to be found out ... a ticking time bomb waiting to blow up in management's face ... but I daresay this could very well be right also.
> 
> ...


This is kind of what I've been thinking, too, although...
1) I cannot imagine grunts (those nearest the coding) have any motivation to perpetrate such a thing... without the most enormous pressure (fear).
2) Management attitude for me would equal Ego Maniac (Ferdie) creating a culture fear as the root and the resultant being lower levels of management being driven to worse and worse (more regrettable) fixes.


*The saddest thing in these events is not that people are perpetrating such things because they're somehow arrogant or trying to spite the EPA regs, but rather (IMHO) because unrealistic goals/schedules being pushed by the top 'leaders' are not stopped and/or made realistic in the approval process as it rolls down hill... through layers of other 'leaders'... to those tasked to implement. It's easy to imagine gutless or scared middle executive ranks just saying, "YES, SIR!" to each layer above them... for fear of being labeled a "NO person" and subsequently being replaced after years of working their way to said position. 

Even more sad is that by allowing such unrealistic decrees to roll down hill (even though most of these execs know damn well it is unrealistic/impossible/etc.), they free themselves of the direct proof that could incriminate them in a court of law (i.e. The actual, fateful decision was forced on levels far lower and those would be the ones easily tossed under the bus... because it was their DIRECT decision vs all of the executives' INDIRECT PRESSURE/DEMANDS.). You can imagine the same with other debacles like GM ignition, BP Gulf spill, etc.*


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> Everybody had to have known except maybe the guys working on the stereos, soft-touch dashboard materials, etc. No way could this have gone through based on only a small group of people knowing about it.


I think it is semantics when it comes to defining an exact quantity of people. Most certainly there were plenty more than any mere handful given the Powertrain Development Process... let alone the Vehicle Development Process.

Who knew depends on how the company structures itself... its disciplines, right? There could be people focused just on X engine or there could be people focusing on Y component of several engine lines. The two would obviously know different things. And similar could be said with the emissions or calibration folks, etc. And that's not including the people who heard about the cheat through the grape vine.

I cannot accept any idea that VW is some how some huge culture of arrogant engineers flipping off CARB/EPA. Engineers have a lot of pride and love to fix things... given enough time and money. Complex failures like this are about complex human and organizational behavior/psychology to me. It's a lot more complex than "HE DID IT!!! TOSS HIM UNDER THE BUS!! UPDATE THE REG! HIRE A VP OF CHEATING. CASE CLOSED." as I think most people believe. :beer: 

What I still find amazing is given how many people must have known (including the competitor MFRs that benchmarked the TDIs)... why in this age of media did the story not get to Anderson Cooper faster? :sly:


----------



## jepva (Feb 10, 2011)

uncleho said:


> This is kind of what I've been thinking, too, although...
> 1) I cannot imagine grunts (those nearest the coding) have any motivation to perpetrate such a thing... without the most enormous pressure (fear).
> 2) Management attitude for me would equal Ego Maniac (Ferdie) creating a culture fear as the root and the resultant being lower levels of management being driven to worse and worse (more regrettable) fixes.
> 
> ...



Yep - it's the same story we're seeing over and over with the unrealistic pressures placed on companies for corporate profits and the stock market. It's no different then Enron, BP, GM, etc. Our culture is placing higher emphasis on profits and performance than doing things the right and moral way.


----------



## Atl-Atl (Jun 7, 2006)

jepva said:


> Yep - it's the same story we're seeing over and over with the unrealistic pressures placed on companies for corporate profits and the stock market. It's no different then Enron, BP, GM, etc. Our culture is placing higher emphasis on profits and performance than doing things the right and moral way.


Yup.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

GoFaster said:


> The article by Bob Lutz is speculative but I daresay he is probably right. Dictatorial management that is incapable of listening is a recipe for trouble.
> .


It's kind of fascinating in that it can be enormously powerful - see Apple in the Jobs era, Germany in the Godwin era - but only if it's pointed the right way. It works to hand down the diktat that panel fits will be world-class in six months or **** your job. It's nasty and stressful and doesn't respect the value of human capital, but it does work. 

But when the unstoppable force (Peich) hits the immovable object (regulations, chemistry) it doesn't work out that well. The chemistry of nitrous oxide formation at high temperature and pressure doesn't give a **** about Mr. Peach's orders, Dieter the Engineer's job, or VW's American marketing strategy. Tier 2 Bin 5 doesn't go away because it's told to.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

It would be funny if this was manifested by a group of disgruntled employees on their way out of VW, then leaked it to someone in West Virginia of all places.. Talk about the ultimate revenge..


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

It might be funny, but there's no indication that it happened that way.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

GoFaster said:


> It might be funny, but there's no indication that it happened that way.


Yeah, it was a joke, although stranger things have happened.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

GoFaster said:


> It might be funny, but there's no indication that it happened that way.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

Turbio! said:


> It's kind of fascinating in that it can be enormously powerful - see Apple in the Jobs era, Germany in the Godwin era - but only if it's pointed the right way. It works to hand down the diktat that panel fits will be world-class in six months or **** your job. It's nasty and stressful and doesn't respect the value of human capital, but it does work.
> 
> But when the unstoppable force (Peich) hits the immovable object (regulations, chemistry) it doesn't work out that well. The chemistry of nitrous oxide formation at high temperature and pressure doesn't give a **** about Mr. Peach's orders, Dieter the Engineer's job, or VW's American marketing strategy. Tier 2 Bin 5 doesn't go away because it's told to.


I think an ego maniac's commandments/threats are one side of the spectrum, but there are many levels in between, too... that aren't founded from threats. And they can be just as detrimental if those in between or nearest the originator do not have the balls to clarify and/or refine the message/request/order... before they roll it out to their teams.

*Example:*

*CEO*: Team, we are making good results with the turnaround, but we're not there yet. The pressure from ABC, inc is mounting because gossip on the street says they will intro XYZ product in 4 years. And it might be transformative. Do we have something to counter it? Can we stretch ourselves and beat them to market?
*Executive1*: Uhhh... that's a tough one, sir. 
*Exec2*: We could if we did this and your team does that and we get Europe to do this and that.
*Exec1*: But you're ignoring this and that and those...
*Exec3*: Yeah... that sounds good. We need to push ourselves.
*Exec1*: But...
*Exec4*: We're never going to recapture the lead if we don't stretch ourselves... really hard. This is war after all.
*Exec5*: Let's do it!

*Exec2-5*: Team, here is the plan. Here is the schedule. Here is the goal.
*Team*: Uhhhh... OK. Uhhh, well... I guess... maybe... alrighty.
*Exec1*: Team, we have an edict from above. It's going to be a challenge. Give me an analysis of what this will take.
*Team*: Unicorn farts?


I get that productivity needs to improve. I get that profits must be improved. I get that efficiency needs improvement. What I don't get is whether or not enough 'leaders' realize there are limits to everything... especially resources. Whether they realize debacles like this can easily originate from scenarios as seemingly innocent as this. After all it's not like the CEO was throwing furniture... and his/her words were "Do we..." and "Can we..." rather than "You will..." and "Or else..."


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

The maximum duty cycle of the human being is 87%.

You can thank Henry Ford for figuring that out.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Now I want to drive back out west for some Taco John's.


Install your defeat device please. Please.


----------



## Oval Baja (Feb 21, 2007)

spockcat said:


> I think he will have to walk. Huffy has recalls too. And public transportation? Who knows what brand of bus will show up and it would have driven away before he could investigate it for recalls.




From my exhaustive research: Santa Cruz bicycles are recall free! 

For now...................umpkin:


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

uncleho said:


> I think it is semantics when it comes to defining an exact quantity of people. Most certainly there were plenty more than any mere handful given the Powertrain Development Process... let alone the Vehicle Development Process.
> 
> What I still find amazing is given how many people must have known (including the competitor MFRs that benchmarked the TDIs)... why in this age of media did the story not get to Anderson Cooper faster? :sly:


this 



AZGolf said:


> What's most concerning to me is that everyone in powertrain had to have known, not just a few people. The cars ran in gross polluter mode _all the time_ which means that every single powertrain engineer was fully aware that they were doing every bit of testing, durability, performance, NVH, and any other kind of testing while looking at the ECU maps and seeing it was in gross polluter mode. Things like intentionally keeping the exhaust temperature below the point at which the lean NOx trap is effective, reducing the duty cycle of the EGR, reducing the pressure of the fuel rail - those are things anybody and everybody who looked at how the car was running would see in the first few minutes of observing operation. It would be OBVIOUS.


and very much this




GoFaster said:


> Tthe code writer likely went out for a beer with the department manager and had the "you know what we could do" meeting (face to face, not in email) knowing that the manager would have to approve it; they got it done and covered their tracks.


there isnt any way that this was a single person, or even just a couple of guys scheming.

the number of people involved in taking automotive software from idea -> plan -> execution is immense.
this isnt a couple guys in a garage developing iphone apps :laugh:

those meetings may have gone down between department heads, but not just a couple developers and their manager...


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

I'm going to go ahead and Godwin this thread, if no one else has.

One of the strangest things I noticed when I was living in Germany was the reluctance of most German managers to make decisions. It got to be a joke - there are only two ways a German makes a decision - he's backed into a corner and makes a snap decision or he researches the options exhaustively and delays a long as possible until he gets backed into a corner and has to make a snap decision.

The American style of decision making where you collect some data, make a general directional decision, then collect some more data and refine the decision, rinse and repeat as needed, is completely foreign over there. The idea that you might not know everything up front is a paralysing risk. Worse, it leads to story-telling of grand proportions, in which managers make up scenarios that justify their actions, then spend months trying to backfill the scenarios into life. When that fails, they get relegated to the back as poor performers. So making a decision that involves any risk is culturally anathema because imperfect.

Anyone who can make the artificial scenario real is a veritable god, though, and more than a few managers will quietly make such a person's life quite easy and insure that the subterfuge is not visible, as it makes everyone look good. 

Guys like Piech who can make reasonably good decisions on the fly are few and far between over there. (as much as I can't stand the guy, he's not that bad on paper) Most of the managers are perfectly happy to be told what to do, because committing to a decision bears an ugly stigma. Nobody wants to have to admit that they voted for Hitler.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Now I want to drive back out west for some Taco John's.


The ride out there would be fun. The ride back, probably not so much.


----------



## Travis Grundke (May 26, 1999)

Atomicalex,

That's actually a pretty good observation and not far off the mark from my own experiences in both the graduate school world when I lived in Europe as well as the work world back here in the United States. The whole conversation about Volkswagen's (or any company) culture is fascinating to me because culture drives *everything* about a business. 

I'm convinced that at the end of the day the entire diesel fiasco will be boiled down to an issue of company culture that ultimately did not provide any space for engineers to feel safe in questioning, doubting, or pushing back on C-level mandates. Lutz's example of Piech's demands for body panel gaps is an excellent microcosm of the bigger picture - but it also goes to both the German and the engineers' mindset. In many ways it's a perfect storm. 




atomicalex said:


> I'm going to go ahead and Godwin this thread, if no one else has.
> 
> One of the strangest things I noticed when I was living in Germany was the reluctance of most German managers to make decisions. It got to be a joke - there are only two ways a German makes a decision - he's backed into a corner and makes a snap decision or he researches the options exhaustively and delays a long as possible until he gets backed into a corner and has to make a snap decision.
> 
> ...


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

MCTB said:


> The ride out there would be fun. The ride back, probably not so much.


So you're telling me I'll need to stock up on urea?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

atomicalex said:


> Nobody wants to have to admit that they voted for Hitler.


Whereas here in murricah there would still be folks out there with bumper stickers stating _Hitler will rise again!_


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

First time that I received an email from a law firm trying to convince me to file for an individual law suit (not class action). I got used to receiving postcards but am wondering where they got my email info.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> Whereas here in murricah there would still be folks out there with bumper stickers stating _Hitler will rise again!_


:facepalm:


----------



## intercedeGLI (Sep 8, 2002)

Jack-DE said:


> First time that I received an email from a law firm trying to convince me to file for an individual law suit (not class action). I got used to receiving postcards but am wondering where they got my email info.


Public records request? Probably paid for the records of Volkswagen model owners who have vehicles registered as a certain fuel type in a certain year.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> So you're telling me I'll need to stock up on urea?


No, but probably a different magic substance. It is usually pink.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Silly_me said:


> Whereas here in murricah there would still be folks out there with bumper stickers stating _Hitler will rise again!_


Literally NEVER seen one of those. And I have lived in/ driven through many States.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

MCTB said:


> Literally NEVER seen one of those. And I have lived in/ driven through many States.


Joke.


Your head.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

atomicalex said:


> I'm going to go ahead and Godwin this thread, if no one else has.
> 
> One of the strangest things I noticed when I was living in Germany was the reluctance of most German managers to make decisions. It got to be a joke - there are only two ways a German makes a decision - he's backed into a corner and makes a snap decision or he researches the options exhaustively and delays a long as possible until he gets backed into a corner and has to make a snap decision.
> 
> ...


ALL of this. Absolutely all of it.

I am a project manager and getting decisions made from our Germany office nearly requires unilateral action.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

MCTB said:


> Literally NEVER seen one of those. And I have lived in/ driven through many States.


"Aryan by birth, Lebensraum by the grace of Gott"?

Hackenkreuz flags on the back windows of jacked-up, coal-rolling Kubelwagens?

A giant bas-relief carving of Goebbles, Himmler and Rommel on the side of a big granite mountain?

Nahhh, doesn't sound like 'murica at all.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

OOOO-A3 said:


> A giant bas-relief carving of Goebbles, Himmler and Rommel on the side of a big granite mountain?


Ahhh... there really is something related to that in Germany though, although it has none other than VW's own Ferdinand Piëch with his junk hanging out (NSFW).


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

Travis Grundke said:


> Atomicalex,
> 
> That's actually a pretty good observation and not far off the mark from my own experiences in both the graduate school world when I lived in Europe as well as the work world back here in the United States. The whole conversation about Volkswagen's (or any company) culture is fascinating to me because culture drives *everything* about a business.
> 
> I'm convinced that at the end of the day the entire diesel fiasco will be boiled down to an issue of company culture that ultimately did not provide any space for engineers to feel safe in questioning, doubting, or pushing back on C-level mandates. Lutz's example of Piech's demands for body panel gaps is an excellent microcosm of the bigger picture - but it also goes to both the German and the engineers' mindset. In many ways it's a perfect storm.


At the end of the day, its hard to believe a company would risk this much over a dying technology which made up such a relatively small percentage of their business. There has got to be something more to it..


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

caj1 said:


> At the end of the day, its hard to believe a company would risk this much over a dying technology which made up such a relatively small percentage of their business. There has got to be something more to it..


Yeah, ego. The will to prove someone wrong.

It's a narrative that is not unique to VW. I merely have to point to the Phaeton to prove my point.

And that, again, points to only one man.

Draw your own conclusions.


----------



## pwm (Feb 26, 2009)

caj1 said:


> At the end of the day, its hard to believe a company would risk this much over a dying technology which made up such a relatively small percentage of their business. There has got to be something more to it..


Diesel was a relatively small percentage of their business? I thought a quarter of US sales were TDIs. I always figured it was much higher in ROW. That doesn't seem relatively small to me.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

OOOO-A3 said:


> "Aryan by birth, Lebensraum by the grace of Gott"?
> 
> Hackenkreuz flags on the back windows of jacked-up, coal-rolling Kubelwagens?
> 
> A giant bas-relief carving of Goebbles, Himmler and Rommel on the side of a big granite mountain?


This post is pulitzer material, but the _Hackenkreuz flags on the back windows of jacked-up, coal-rolling Kubelwagens_ pushes it to Nobel Prize in Literature territory :laugh:



Maximum_Download said:


> And that, again, points to only one man.


Without that mad man I wouldn't have had the best car ever where he forced two GTI engines together on a stretched C3 platform where the first quattro system to be mated to an automatic transmission powered 15 inch wheels with internal caliper brakes. Oh, and Veyron.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

Silly_me said:


> Without that mad man I wouldn't have had the best car ever where he forced two GTI engines together on a stretched C3 platform where the first quattro system to be mated to an automatic transmission powered 15 inch wheels with internal caliper brakes. Oh, and Veyron.


Silly I generally like you, and I have been trying to not engage you in this thread, but.... 

The engineering pet projects he pushed through are, in my opinion, part of the reason VW is in this mess right now. It diverted resources away from things that would have actually made them money, and starved core product lines. He is also directly responsible for the nightmare reliability of the MkIVs.

Yeah, is is also responsible for some of VWs most memorable stuff, but EVERTYTHING with VW comes with a major caveat and "but...". 

THe Veyron is an engineering high water mark that no other company could make. IT's that way because no other company WOULD make it - there was no business case for it. I am glad they did it, but I cannot help but wonder how many awesome common-man cars got sacrificed in order to make the Veyron. I would have gladly sacrificed the Veyron to have an awesome Jetta, a competitve Passat, and a handful of really great (and great driving) family-friendly vehicles like a competitive Ford Explorer counterpart.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Maximum_Download said:


> Silly I generally like you, and I have been trying to not engage you in this thread, but....


Did..... did you just Kanye West me? :sly:



Maximum_Download said:


> I would have gladly sacrificed the Veyron to have an awesome Jetta, a competitve Passat, and a handful of really great (and great driving) family-friendly vehicles like a competitive Ford Explorer counterpart.


And play second fiddle to Mercedes-Benz? Where's your sense of misplaced pride man?!?! Nobody likes a Ford Explorer, everyone worships at the house of Veyron, priorities man! This isn't a business, it's war. You don't go down in history books by making a better Jetta, you go down in History for having Campagnolo design and build your trunk hinges!


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

Has anyone else noticed that yesterday for a brief time VW's site had a $1,500 loyalty bonus offer on all models? Then the stop sale news / recall on the 1.8T engines broke, and now the site shows only a $1,000 bonus for the Passat.


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

Jack-DE said:


> Recall on the 1.8T engines...


There was a recall on the nevAr lose?


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Joke.
> 
> 
> Your head.


i don't get it.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Maximum_Download said:


> Yeah, ego. The will to prove someone wrong.


This is why the status bit makes me laugh so hard. It's right there in the code. The Diesel cheat was artistically embedded, using some off-the-shelf options and a creative arrangement of sensor data. This status bit was not. It was placed in the most obvious place possible, right where the EPA was going to look anyway. Whoever put this bit in was angry and looking for blood. Perhaps their program got killed, or defunded, or whatever. They were angry and knew that the only way to fight back was to join the war. This was a whistleblower action, corporate sabotage, even.

Somebody hated management. Who knows. Maybe this bit was actually a group effort - the Diesel cheat was sufficiently close to Bosch's dyno mode that it simply required another mode map and a ridiculous set of inputs. It was exceptionally well-hidden, even in plain sight, because it used a development algorithm that was supposed to be there, but dormant. This status bit is actually a far more brazen cheat - it does not rely on a cryptic, hidden subroutine that exists on all Bosch ECUs, it simply shuts down the emissions system after a period of time. A period of time during which it is likely that the data might still be being accumulated by some gear somewhere. And said bit's value and effect would be recorded, even if by accident. And some bored technician would see the long tail and wonder what the heck was up. 

Imagine if this had blown open before the Diesel fiasco. VW is caught cheating on the gas engines first. So what, we have clean TDI power.... until.... we don't. The endgame is really the same.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

Maximum_Download said:


> Yeah, ego. The will to prove someone wrong.
> 
> It's a narrative that is not unique to VW. I merely have to point to the Phaeton to prove my point.
> 
> ...


Do you also think the World Trade Center was actually hit by US missiles?


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

caj1 said:


> Do you also think the World Trade Center was actually hit by US missiles?


You're reaching on that one, my friend.


----------



## JohnTT (Dec 7, 2001)

[HR]This thread is getting stupid now[/HR].....okay, it's just stupid.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

JohnTT said:


> This thread is getting stupid now.


Getting?


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Getting?


:laugh:


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

caj1 said:


> Do you also think the World Trade Center was actually hit by US missiles?


Can we please just delete posts like these rather than blackhole the entire thread?

This guy does nothing but toss confrontational one liners.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

2.0T_Convert said:


> confrontational one liners.


I was so depressed that I decided to jump from the tenth floor, they sent up a priest, he said "On your mark!"


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> This is why the status bit makes me laugh so hard. It's right there in the code. The Diesel cheat was artistically embedded, using some off-the-shelf options and a creative arrangement of sensor data. This status bit was not. It was placed in the most obvious place possible, right where the EPA was going to look anyway. Whoever put this bit in was angry and looking for blood. Perhaps their program got killed, or defunded, or whatever. They were angry and knew that the only way to fight back was to join the war. This was a whistleblower action, corporate sabotage, even.
> 
> Somebody hated management. Who knows. Maybe this bit was actually a group effort - the Diesel cheat was sufficiently close to Bosch's dyno mode that it simply required another mode map and a ridiculous set of inputs. It was exceptionally well-hidden, even in plain sight, because it used a development algorithm that was supposed to be there, but dormant. This status bit is actually a far more brazen cheat - it does not rely on a cryptic, hidden subroutine that exists on all Bosch ECUs, it simply shuts down the emissions system after a period of time. A period of time during which it is likely that the data might still be being accumulated by some gear somewhere. And said bit's value and effect would be recorded, even if by accident. And some bored technician would see the long tail and wonder what the heck was up.
> 
> Imagine if this had blown open before the Diesel fiasco. VW is caught cheating on the gas engines first. So what, we have clean TDI power.... until.... we don't. The endgame is really the same.


This is Academy Award stuff! I'm talkin' McCougnehy, Damon, Streep... and they'd all be Germans with British accents like good ole WW2 flicks.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Part I am most surprised about is that they could keep a group of people quite this long if they really were being threatened with their job constantly. The "you wouldn't dare fire me" could turn the tables pretty quickly when you reminded them of the scale of fraud the company was in the middle of.

Or the "I had enough, got another job and am not going to explain sink them".

With the number of years this went on I am sure some quit or were fired.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

caj1 said:


> Do you also think the World Trade Center was actually hit by US missiles?


Well, it's been over 150 pages; some chucklehead had to dumb this bitch up, and you're as good a candidate as any, I guess.


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...n-to-announce-tdi-goodwill-program-next-week/

Looks like a couple of $500 gift cards, one to be exclusively used at dealers. And here I had some hope that Volkswagen would actually make a real effort to get current TDI owners into a new VW gasser. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

jen_madcity said:


> http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...n-to-announce-tdi-goodwill-program-next-week/
> 
> Looks like a couple of $500 gift cards, one to be exclusively used at dealers. And here I had some hope that Volkswagen would actually make a real effort to get current TDI owners into a new VW gasser.
> 
> ...


Call me a skeptic but the website listed in that article doesn't actually have the same domain registration info as the main vw.com website. Everything on the website does link back to vw.com but the owner of the website seems to be MarkMonitor.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

xupeiran said:


> Go to www.vw.com and click on "Information on TDI emissions issue". It redirects you right to www.vwdieselinfo.com :facepalm:


And as I said, everything on the vwdieselinfo site directs to vw.com. But it seems VW hired a third party to handle this stuff for them I guess.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Getting?


:laugh: no kidding


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Audi and Porsche models in Europe fitted with devices that U.S. says cheated tests



> BERLIN (Reuters) -- Volkswagen Group's luxury diesel cars in Europe including Audi and Porsche models are fitted with the same software that U.S. regulators say was used to cheat emissions tests in the United States, the automaker said.
> 
> Regulators have said that about 10,000 VW cars in the U.S. - including some Audi and Porsche models - were equipped with auxiliary emission control devices (AECD) that masked the fact that the cars could emit up to nine times the allowed amount of smog-causing nitrogen oxide.
> 
> ...


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

jen_madcity said:


> http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...n-to-announce-tdi-goodwill-program-next-week/
> 
> Looks like a couple of $500 gift cards, one to be exclusively used at dealers. And here I had some hope that Volkswagen would actually make a real effort to get current TDI owners into a new VW gasser.
> 
> ...



If true, i wonder if it can be used for service as at this moment, I don't see myself buying another VW. I had the downstream 02 sensor go at 40k, and VW goodwilled it. That same sensor went 18k miles later, and they goodwilled it again. I expect this one to only last 10k.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

It's so strange how our resident Audi TDI apologists have stopped posting in this one particular thread. :wave:


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

Volkswagen design chief de Silva quits

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-design-chief-silva-quits-140356267.html


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Reuters said:


> VW said the AECD system did not violate regulations in Europe or the United States.
> 
> "AECD software does not alter emissions levels, but it ensures after a cold start [of the engine] that the catalytic converters quickly reach their working temperature and emissions cleaning takes effect," VW said. *AECDs also protect engine parts amid the combustion process which ensures the durability of after-treatment of exhaust gases, it said.*


While I'm not sure they meant to admit it here, they just admitted why they have been cheating: money/durability. The US government requires that emissions control systems work for 10 years, 120,000 miles and in California I believe the requirement is 150,000 miles. Based on the information from the Reuters article above, VW says it equipped the AECD to "ensure durability of after-treatment" which means they know they put an emissions system on the TDIs that either cannot possibly last 150,000 miles, or would fail often enough that they'd be doing hundreds (or thousands) of dollars of warranty work to every TDI they sold just to get them to the 120/150k mile mark.

This is pretty much exactly what we had all feared: VW equipped the defeat devices so they could skimp on the emissions controls as a means to maximize corporate profits.


----------



## intercedeGLI (Sep 8, 2002)

spockcat said:


> Audi and Porsche models in Europe fitted with devices that U.S. says cheated tests





> "AECD software does not alter emissions levels, but it ensures after a cold start [of the engine] that the catalytic converters quickly reach their working temperature and emissions cleaning takes effect," VW said. AECDs also protect engine parts amid the combustion process which ensures the durability of after-treatment of exhaust gases, it said.


It didn't work very well if 3 other labs reported that the cars ran up to 9x dirtier than regulations require after this cycle was done. 










http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-2015-11-02.pdf


----------



## VarianceVQ (Jun 26, 2005)

caj1 said:


> Volkswagen design chief de Silva quits
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/volkswagen-design-chief-silva-quits-140356267.html


It's not like he was doing much lately anyway.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> This is pretty much exactly what we had all feared: VW equipped the defeat devices so they could skimp on the emissions controls as a means to maximize corporate profits.


This is a good example of the success of strict, "free market" proponents (i.e. You can't get anymore 'free' than cheating.). 

I wonder when others will be found guilty of 'cheating' or 'creative coding'.


----------



## [email protected] (Feb 16, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> While I'm not sure they meant to admit it here, they just admitted why they have been cheating: money/durability. The US government requires that emissions control systems work for 10 years, 120,000 miles and in California I believe the requirement is 150,000 miles. Based on the information from the Reuters article above, VW says it equipped the AECD to "ensure durability of after-treatment" which means they know they put an emissions system on the TDIs that either cannot possibly last 150,000 miles, or would fail often enough that they'd be doing hundreds (or thousands) of dollars of warranty work to every TDI they sold just to get them to the 120/150k mile mark.
> 
> This is pretty much exactly what we had all feared: VW equipped the defeat devices so they could skimp on the emissions controls as a means to maximize corporate profits.


You keep talking like you have all the facts here and I've largely stayed out of this whole thing. However this time I can at least clarify a couple things..

1. They are not admitting anything regarding why they have been cheating as you so definitively state above. Is it likely profit driven? Sure, that's plausible. However, what VW is saying in here with the 3.0 TDI is that the EPA rules allow for a variance in parameters when (as in this case) the car is started cold and the catalytic converter isn't up to temperature and *damage* could occur to the system as a result. This is something that many manufacturers use in their systems as it is permitted as the rules are written. This is completely different than the prior admitted "defeat" software algorithm that VW fully owned up to (and will pay the price on). 

Part of the issue in this whole thing is that a large number of the journalists that are covering this story know very little about how all these things work, how the EPA designs the test, what is measured, how's its measured and most importantly how the rules and regulations are "interpreted" by all the manufacturers. Similar to "rule interpretation" in Formula 1, the fuel mileage and EPA testing rules aren't completely specific and open to some interpretation. The EPA doesn't really openly discuss this stuff in detail with journalists (because most don't have a reason to cover it) and the manufacturers don't talk about it either as it is a very grey area at times that only powertrain engineers will talk in hushed tones about with other engineers from other companies. 

This is compounded by the issue that VWoA doesn't want to speak out of turn or say anything that could cause further damage (particularly when Germany wants to control the situation). So a lot of the things being reported aren't completely accurate, missing information or just generally not completely correct as the person writing it is just trying to figure it all out. It is a mess.

Further, on this last press call with the EPA earlier this week when they announced the 3.0 TDI vehicles are also out of compliance, journalists had an opportunity at the end of the statement to ask questions. I stayed out of it, but unlike the first call, this one took on a bit of a different tone. The EPA announced that is was going to initiate new "random" test methods so that this wouldn't happen again. They also mentioned they were currently testing all diesel passenger vehicles with new methods and that it was "ongoing". When the questions and answers started up, quite a few journalists started asking about the new testing, asking about real world conditions being reflected in the current test versus new tests, what happens if more vehicles prove to pollute more than they thought in real world driving and on and on. The EPA was a bit more on the defensive and refused to answer most of these questions. That's understandable when they are trying to sort it out themselves, but more the point being that this has brought this whole testing thing into the spotlight and shows it isn't infallible or worse necessarily indicative of real world conditions.

My understanding is that VW is also having a very difficult time trying to get the EPA to approve solutions as the EPA is doing "different" testing methods that they aren't disclosing to any of the manufacturers. VW has asked them if they are similar to the West Virginia tests and the EPA won't commit one way or the other. Meanwhile quite a few other manufacturers are calling people at VW asking if the EPA has told them how they are testing the vehicles to which VW has no answer. I'm sure there is a lot of frustration for everyone including the EPA right now as they try and sort this all out.

EPA and MPG testing has always revolved around manufacturers looking at the rules and regulations and making "adjustments" to vehicles that favor the test. VW obviously took it too far with an actual program in the ECU that senses when the car is being tested. VW fully admitted that they did this (although I personally am surprised that any attorney involved in this would have recommended fully admitting to anything). However the second most recent accusation from the EPA regarding the 3.0 TDI units is being handled differently and sounds like there is some question regarding how the rules are written and what's permitted or not permitted. VW still maintains they didn't use a software cheat specifically in the 3.0 TDI. We'll see how it plays out.

Meanwhile all of the car manufacturers are waiting to see how this all develops and what happens to the testing procedures. West Virginia testing showed for example that the BMW X5 diesel also polluted under certain conditions. I think that's just the reality of the current EPA lab dyno test versus real world conditions being two different things. The issue is, how many other vehicles if tested the way EPA is talking, also end up polluting more? In the end, the EPA will need (and should) make changes to try and prevent this type of thing from happening and also to keep manufacturers on their toes. Crash standard testing gets changed up every few years (small overlap being the newest) and it forces the manufacturers to make changes for the better. EPA probably needs to do the same moving forward to make it more difficult to design around the test.

This really is a complicated mess. VW stepped into it in a big way and, no doubt the fall out for them will be huge. It was a moronic decision to take a risk like this in my opinion. Having said that, I can also say that it was concentrated on a very small group of people involved when taken on the whole of VW employees that work so hard to do great things. I've talked to more VW employees that still can't believe this than you could imagine and no one there is trying to deny this or defend it. Everyone knows it was a lousy decision and getting through this will be difficult. The good news hopefully is that those involved move on away from the company and VW demonstrates through actions that they are committed to the environment and trying to make this right. Time will tell.

Meanwhile the drama level in here has been fun to watch. I know we all get wrapped up in these things, but the self-proclaimed "experts" in here that have bubbled to the top and talk like they have definite facts are amusing.

Just my opinions as someone that has spent the last 15+ years covering this company. It is messed up, arrogant and just plain stupid on many levels. But like I said, the few individuals involved in making these decisions aren't indicative of all the people that work so hard to do great things at VW. In the big picture it will be alright and the EPA will likely make more needed changes to the rules and regulations to try and keep up.

-jamie


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> [wall of text]
> -jamie


quite possibly the most lucid, intelligent, and well thought out commentary i've read on this so far. that's including journalist's articles, too.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

I work at Environment Canada who is also involved in this testing with the EPA. Everything Jamie said is spot on.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

GoHomeBroke said:


> quite possibly the most lucid, intelligent, and well thought out commentary i've read on this so far. that's including journalist's articles, too.


QFT :thumbup:


----------



## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

GoHomeBroke said:


> quite possibly the most lucid, intelligent, and well thought out commentary i've read on this so far. that's including journalist's articles, too.


Agreed! 

lack of info, as usual, is just very frustrating to customers


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

*shrugs shoulders*


I vote to abolish the EPA. They're partly to blame in the big mess. Massively convoluted regulations, standards, etc which are subject to fairly wide spread interpretations cause far more problems then they were intended to fix. 

I get the whole "let's have emissions standards for manufacturers to follow" idea but it seems to me it has become such a complex mess wrapped in bureaucratic red tape and wasted tax payer money. Just like everything related to government agencies, I think they look for stupid reasons and create needlessly complex regulations to justify their existence to the tax payers. Time to thin the EPA herd.


----------



## CostcoPizza (Jan 20, 2008)

Uberhare said:


> *shrugs shoulders*
> 
> 
> I vote to abolish the EPA. They're partly to blame in the big mess. Massively convoluted regulations, standards, etc which are subject to fairly wide spread interpretations cause far more problems then they were intended to fix.
> ...


Are you telling me you want to privatize the EPA? :laugh:

This thread doesn't stop delivering.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> It is messed up, arrogant and just plain stupid on many levels.


This most of all.


----------



## bothhandsplease (Oct 6, 2011)

Uberhare said:


> *shrugs shoulders*
> 
> 
> I vote to abolish the EPA. They're partly to blame in the big mess. Massively convoluted regulations, standards, etc which are subject to fairly wide spread interpretations cause far more problems then they were intended to fix.
> ...


Yeah! I agree. I don't want safe drinking water, air, or plastics that are cancer free. Let the free market clear that all up. If a company can hide their pollution and contamination well enough that you can't directly sue them (if you have millions to fight with), you and your family probably deserve cancer.

While no large agency is perfect (public or private) the flat out all or nothing political 24 hour news bs needs to stop. :facepalm:


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

bothhandsplease said:


> Yeah! I agree. I don't want *safe drinking water*, air, or plastics that are cancer free. Let the free market clear that all up. If a company can hide their pollution and contamination well enough that you can't directly sue them (if you have millions to fight with), you and your family probably deserve cancer.
> 
> While no large agency is perfect (public or private) the flat out all or nothing political 24 hour news bs needs to stop. :facepalm:


seriously!


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

[email protected] said:


> However, what VW is saying in here with the 3.0 TDI is that the EPA rules allow for a variance in parameters when (as in this case) the car is started cold and the catalytic converter isn't up to temperature and *damage* could occur to the system as a result. This is something that many manufacturers use in their systems as it is permitted as the rules are written. This is completely different than the prior admitted "defeat" software algorithm that VW fully owned up to (and will pay the price on).


The articles state that the switch happens at 1370 seconds after the test began, and that it never turns on again. The EPA's own letter states that at a different lab setting, this warm-up mode simply never engages at all. I think that's why the EPA feels cheating is involved, since VW's stance is that it's a warm-up mode, yet it never engages that mode unless it's being tested under the conditions of the FTP-75 emissions test.



[email protected] said:


> My understanding is that VW is also having a very difficult time trying to get the EPA to approve solutions as the EPA is doing "different" testing methods that they aren't disclosing to any of the manufacturers. VW has asked them if they are similar to the West Virginia tests and the EPA won't commit one way or the other. Meanwhile quite a few other manufacturers are calling people at VW asking if the EPA has told them how they are testing the vehicles to which VW has no answer. I'm sure there is a lot of frustration for everyone including the EPA right now as they try and sort this all out.


I don't doubt it. I am guessing VW feels they did nothing wrong because they feel they have complied with the letter of the law, even if it is not the spirit of the law. What I've observed over time is that such a technicality may get you off from small-time charges raised by an individual or a business that can absorb such a loss, the notion of getting off on a technicality when fighting the US Federal Government is much more difficult. Who knows; VW might actually win as far as the 3.0 TDI is concerned, but they'll have only won on a technicality and the EPA will undoubtedly move to update the official documented test procedures to make them cover an even wider range of conditions. They may even then publish a separate set of (higher) limits that must not be exceeded in real world testing either.

Ultimately, I think all this does is raise the issue that BEVs are the only class of car that will always pass tailpipe emissions under all conditions. Idling, slow driving, high speed cruise, and WOT acceleration runs, a BEV never emits any tailpipe emissions. We already have strict laws for the emissions at power plants, which means the plants that do burn fossil fuels being in compliance translates into the BEVs being in compliance. For a long time I maintained that I felt it was going to take 40-50 years for BEVs to take over >50% of the light duty automotive market, but if emissions testing gets strict enough, we could see CO2 and smog rules pushing manufacturers to BEVs even quicker than that.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

Uberhare said:


> *shrugs shoulders*
> 
> 
> I vote to abolish the EPA. They're partly to blame in the big mess. Massively convoluted regulations, standards, etc which are subject to fairly wide spread interpretations cause far more problems then they were intended to fix.
> ...


It's a mess because of PEOPLE LIKE YOU who hamstring them from doing their jobs, and cut funding. Painting "government agencies" with a broad brush is another fallacy - I know several agencies that do excellent jobs. This situation is NOT a failure of the EPA, it's a failure of an amoral private company who would **** you and your descendants out of money and a clean environment forever just so they can "increase shareholder value" today. 

Just like every other anti-government nut, you want to cut their funding and staffing, and then point to things not being done right and say "LOL, they're useless." You are the problem here.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> Ultimately, I think all this does is raise the issue that BEVs are the only class of car that will always pass tailpipe emissions under all conditions. Idling, slow driving, high speed cruise, and WOT acceleration runs, a BEV never emits any tailpipe emissions. We already have strict laws for the emissions at power plants, which means the plants that do burn fossil fuels being in compliance translates into the BEVs being in compliance. For a long time I maintained that I felt it was going to take 40-50 years for BEVs to take over >50% of the light duty automotive market, but if emissions testing gets strict enough, we could see CO2 and smog rules pushing manufacturers to BEVs even quicker than that.


I'm guessing no to that. Not because it isn't logical, but because you're forgetting about the power of:
A. DC lobbies
B. Next administration will likely be Republican (i.e. More open to business pressures)
C. Economy is not as kick ass as many would prefer.

It wouldn't be the first time rules get rolled back or delayed


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

uncleho said:


> I'm guessing no to that. Not because it isn't logical, but because you're forgetting about the power of:
> A. DC lobbies
> B. Next administration will likely be Republican (i.e. More open to business pressures)
> C. Economy is not as kick ass as many would prefer.
> ...


A. ...which are being countered by vocal public pressure.
B. Nope.
C. Rules in favor of renewable energy development would FAVOR domestic economic development.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

CostcoPizza said:


> Are you telling me you want to privatize the EPA? :laugh:


No no no, we just want the manufacturers to police themselves.



OOOO-A3 said:


> because of PEOPLE LIKE YOU









uncleho said:


> I'm guessing no to that. Not because it isn't logical, but because you're forgetting about the power of:
> A. DC lobbies


Get over it already, the AC motor is just more ideal for BEVs


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

Jamie,

Isn't the point of a forum to permit discussion of a topic? Discussions include any number of things like speculation. Aside from some raw hating or blind fanboyism, I think most of the speculation has been pretty mature. 

These incidents always facinate me, because they are studies of organizational behavior.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> Get over it already, the AC motor is just more ideal for BEVs


:laugh:


----------



## intercedeGLI (Sep 8, 2002)

jreed1337 said:


> seriously!


HA! Perfect. You just posted a prime example of why the EPA should exist. Confused? I'll help. 

That mine was closed (1920) before the EPA existed and there were no laws that required mining companies to clean up after themselves. They just plugged and moved on.

So now the EPA is systematically inspecting and cleaning _thousands_ of old mines because the runoff from them is polluting groundwater. 

So yeah, EPA screwed up royally and polluted a river. It wouldn't have been a problem if companies could be trusted to clean up after themselves. 

Ironic, that. Isn't it?


----------



## zigster38 (Jun 20, 1999)

So Jaime has offered her opinions like everyone else - yes the EPA needs to change and redefine their testing. VW will take the big $$$$ hit for the car industry, as they should. 

BP finally settled after 5 years and what 50 billion? Through that time, they continued to develop, sell, move and refine petroleum. 

VW will continue to build and sell cars. I'm guessing like everyone else, but I imagine they will finally settle in the 15-20 billion range. The U.S. has no interest in breaking a big allies large business. 

And I imagine the VW will also emerge as a leader in electric/hybrid vehicles in a few years as well.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

OOOO-A3 said:


> A. ...which are being countered by vocal public pressure.
> B. Nope.
> C. Rules in favor of renewable energy development would FAVOR domestic economic development.


A. I agree that this era of information and communication is very powerful. Potentially.

B. Believe what you wish... as I am neither party, but trends cannot be ignored... especially when societies like ours have been practically brainwashed into jumping from one extreme to the other. And the other would be Republican next time around. 

C. We are a society spoiled with wealth and returning a majority of the voters to that previously happier place in the short term is far more powerful a pressure to politicians than mere long term human sustainability*.

*Note: sarcasmeter warmup required


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Uberhare said:


> *shrugs shoulders*
> 
> 
> I vote to abolish the EPA. They're partly to blame in the big mess. Massively convoluted regulations, standards, etc which are subject to fairly wide spread interpretations cause far more problems then they were intended to fix.
> ...


Wrong on every level.

I'm even disgusted to see words and punctuation marks from my beloved English language forced into that awful order.

Boo.


----------



## jannikt (Sep 25, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> You keep talking like you have all the facts here and I've largely stayed out of this whole thing. However this time I can at least clarify a couple things..
> 
> 1. They are not admitting anything regarding why they have been cheating as you so definitively state above. Is it likely profit driven? Sure, that's plausible. However, what VW is saying in here with the 3.0 TDI is that the EPA rules allow for a variance in parameters when (as in this case) the car is started cold and the catalytic converter isn't up to temperature and *damage* could occur to the system as a result. This is something that many manufacturers use in their systems as it is permitted as the rules are written. This is completely different than the prior admitted "defeat" software algorithm that VW fully owned up to (and will pay the price on).
> 
> ...


OK, let me explain what is the issue. AECD isn't, per-se, illegal. Many manufacturers use different operating modes / settings under different conditions - cold engine, heavy load, etc. EPA regulations allow vehicles to exceed emission limits under these special operating modes, as long as:
- they are of limited duration and occur only under special (extreme) conditions
- the vehicle complies with emission limits most of the operating time, while it's running in "normal" mode.

The issue with VW 3.0 engines is that they meet emission limits ONLY when the AECD mode is ON. As soon as the car switches to "normal" mode, they exceed limits. This is the opposite of what EPA regulations intend. The duration of the timer used by VW for the AECD mode is also highly suspicious as it closely matches the duration of the emission test. So basically, EPA contends that VW deliberately programmed the engine to run in AECD mode for a pre-set amount of time to "fool" the emission test, and then switch to a different mode for the rest of the driving interval to protect the emission controls system from premature wear / failure.

Of course, VW can push back that their system meets the "letter of the law", but it clearly violates the "spirit of the law". If EPA (and independent labs that work for them) findings are correct, there is no way VW can come out clean on that one.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

jannikt said:


> This is the opposite of what EPA regulations intend.


this is why she went on to mention that VW may have complied with the letter of the law, but not the spirit.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

[email protected] said:


> My understanding is that VW is also having a very difficult time trying to get the EPA to approve solutions as the EPA is doing "different" testing methods that they aren't disclosing to any of the manufacturers. VW has asked them if they are similar to the West Virginia tests and the EPA won't commit one way or the other. Meanwhile quite a few other manufacturers are calling people at VW asking if the EPA has told them how they are testing the vehicles to which VW has no answer. I'm sure there is a lot of frustration for everyone including the EPA right now as they try and sort this all out.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Meanwhile all of the car manufacturers are waiting to see how this all develops and what happens to the testing procedures. West Virginia testing showed for example that the BMW X5 diesel also polluted under certain conditions. I think that's just the reality of the current EPA lab dyno test versus real world conditions being two different things. The issue is, how many other vehicles if tested the way EPA is talking, also end up polluting more? In the end, the EPA will need (and should) make changes to try and prevent this type of thing from happening and also to keep manufacturers on their toes. Crash standard testing gets changed up every few years (small overlap being the newest) and it forces the manufacturers to make changes for the better. EPA probably needs to do the same moving forward to make it more difficult to design around the test.


Let's back up for a moment and look how a normal gasoline engine powertrain is calibrated for emissions, in general terms.

That engine has an oxygen sensor and a three-way catalyst, and it operates in "closed loop" mode almost all the time, from idling throughout the normal "road load" and into some degree of acceleration. Throughout this entire map of load and RPM, it operates in closed loop and the catalyst takes care of the emissions. The only exceptions are, typically, for full throttle acceleration at higher revs when it is necessary for the engine to run slightly rich to protect itself and the catalyst, and for cold starting because the oxygen sensor is not hot enough to give a reading and the catalyst is not hot enough to do anything. The cold start open-loop-control period last seconds - modern engines use heated oxygen sensors - and the catalyst lights up seconds later. There is an "AECD" device (logic in the ECU, typically) for cold starting (necessary because the full emission control system is not operational yet) and another one for full load (which is typically accepted because the engine has to protect itself from damage, this type of condition only covers a small percentage of normal driving, and the normal emission control strategy operates "most of the time". There is another situation that has to be dealt with - transient loads - when the accelerator pedal changes position too quickly for the air/fuel ratio feedback system to fully deal with - this can cause an emissions spike but it should only be momentary and you make darn sure at the engineering level that it's kept to a minimum.

Everyone, including the EPA, recognises the need for a warm-up strategy. It's commonplace and in a normal gasoline powertrain, it lasts seconds until the lambda sensor gives a reading and the catalyst lights up. Emissions are normally higher during this period until the main emission control strategy starts functioning. The 3.0 TDI situation has emissions that are good during the warm-up strategy but 9 times higher afterward. That's not an AECD ... that's gaming the system. And the "warm-up strategy" is only active in circumstances indicative of a dyno test and for a duration of one second past the Federal Test Procedure. Sorry, I'm not buying it, and the EPA is certainly not going to be buying it, either!

This whole situation would not have happened, and we would not be having this discussion, if the WV test had shown emissions (say) 40% above regulated limits. OK, so the real world doesn't match theory, no surprise there. But with emissions an order of magnitude greater and up to 40 times greater under some conditions ... VW is doing it wrong.

If you take a normal gasoline engine powertrain and you drive it as a normal person does, not particularly following the EPA test schedule, it should still be "somewhere near" compliance with the prescribed emission limits. It might not have the same fuel consumption etc but the CO, HC, NOx are still being controlled because the emission control strategy is still operational.

If you take a normal gasoline engine powertrain and you pick a random throttle position for a random duration, then pick another random throttle position for another random duration, etc., and continue this a random number of times, it will still be "somewhere near" compliance with the prescribed emission limits except the odd time when your random combination of throttle position and RPM happens to land on that near-full-load AECD - which is (or should be) a pre-approved-by-EPA strategy, so that's allowed.

At an engineering level, you deal with the EPA's new "undocumented" emission control tests by making darn sure that the emission control system is operational all time time except when covered under AECD conditions (cold start for as short a time as possible, and near-full-load acceleration) and this has to be true over the entire plausible range of RPM and engine load. And it won't matter if you drive it for 1370 seconds or for three hours.

This is what VW should be doing rather than trying to coax new test procedures out of the EPA that would in turn simply change the way they game those tests. Make the emission control system operational ALL THE TIME and in compliance with the regulated limits ALL THE TIME no matter what the test procedure is, under all plausible combinations of RPM and engine load, and if there are exceptional circumstances in which compliance is not possible, declare them!


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

zigster38 said:


> So Jaime has offered her opinions





GoHomeBroke said:


> this is why she went on


:laugh:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> :laugh:


had dinner with John and Will (admins here) last night....John showed us naked pics of Jamie!!! she has a killer rack!


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> My understanding is that VW is also having a very difficult time trying to get the EPA to approve solutions as the EPA is doing "different" testing methods that they aren't disclosing to any of the manufacturers. VW has asked them if they are similar to the West Virginia tests and the EPA won't commit one way or the other. Meanwhile quite a few other manufacturers are calling people at VW asking if the EPA has told them how they are testing the vehicles to which VW has no answer. I'm sure there is a lot of frustration for everyone including the EPA right now as they try and sort this all out.


A manufacturer should be told what level of emissions will be tolerated and that's it.

As far as _how_ the EPA tests emissions levels, I don't think it should be the manufacturer's concern. Design a vehicle that complies, submit it for testing, and accept your fate.










I have no sympathy on this point for VW.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

GoFaster said:


> Let's back up for a moment and look how a normal gasoline engine powertrain is calibrated for emissions, in general terms.
> 
> That engine has an oxygen sensor and a three-way catalyst, and it operates in "closed loop" mode almost all the time, from idling throughout the normal "road load" and into some degree of acceleration. Throughout this entire map of load and RPM, it operates in closed loop and the catalyst takes care of the emissions. The only exceptions are, typically, for full throttle acceleration at higher revs when it is necessary for the engine to run slightly rich to protect itself and the catalyst, and for cold starting because the oxygen sensor is not hot enough to give a reading and the catalyst is not hot enough to do anything. The cold start open-loop-control period last seconds - modern engines use heated oxygen sensors - and the catalyst lights up seconds later. There is an "AECD" device (logic in the ECU, typically) for cold starting (necessary because the full emission control system is not operational yet) and another one for full load (which is typically accepted because the engine has to protect itself from damage, this type of condition only covers a small percentage of normal driving, and the normal emission control strategy operates "most of the time". There is another situation that has to be dealt with - transient loads - when the accelerator pedal changes position too quickly for the air/fuel ratio feedback system to fully deal with - this can cause an emissions spike but it should only be momentary and you make darn sure at the engineering level that it's kept to a minimum.
> 
> ...


Quoted because this needs to be bumped to the next page for visibility.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Nothing new in this article (http://www.economist.com/news/business/21677623-another-blow-german-carmaker-fuel-fire), but the first line was priceless:



The Economist said:


> Volkswagens can be fitted with nifty kit that takes control of a car’s brakes after a smash to slow it down and help avoid subsequent collisions. If only the carmaker itself were equipped with a similar device.


:laugh:


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

Chilcoot said:


> A manufacturer should be told what level of emissions will be tolerated and that's it.


Have you ever designed something that had to pass a regulatory standard?


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Surf Green said:


> Have you ever designed something that had to pass a regulatory standard?


Not sure what my personal history either way has to do with the proper method of ensuring compliance with a Clean Air Act norm.
But you asked me a question, so I'll give you what you need.



_---------------------- cut here ----------------------_

*Funny you should ask! Yes, I have designed something that had to pass a regulatory standard. Hasn't everyone?*

_---------------------- cut here ----------------------_

*Oh, dang, I was hoping no one would ask me that. No, I have not designed something that had to pass a regulatory standard. Curses!*

_---------------------- cut here ----------------------_



Now just cut and paste the answer you were hoping for and have your Friday night fun!


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

Chilcoot said:


> Not sure what my personal history either way has to do with the proper method of ensuring compliance with a Clean Air Act norm.
> But you asked me a question, so I'll give you what you need.
> 
> 
> ...


I think what he is getting at is that it should not and is not as simple as the EPA coming up with a standard in a vacuum. Consultancy with manufacturers isn't bad. However your point becomes true once the standard has been agreed to and is finally approved by the EPA for everyone to follow.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Rawcpoppa said:


> I think what he is getting at is that it should not and is not as simple as the EPA coming up with a standard in a vacuum.


That definitely could have been his intention, not sure.

However, here's what he wrote:



Surf Green said:


> Have you ever designed something that had to pass a regulatory standard?


I agree that it's appropriate for industry to have its views be known when the standards are developed. They do that by lobbying Congress, and by submitting comments to agencies charged with developing regulations, among many other ways.

But once the standard is set, industry's focus should be on meeting it. Unless the agency's testing method is unsound, the industry shouldn't concern itself with the test itself.

Achieve the standard, VW.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

Chilcoot said:


> Not sure what my personal history either way has to do with the proper method of ensuring compliance with a Clean Air Act norm.


Just trying to get a feel for what your opinion is based on.



> But once the standard is set, industry's focus should be on meeting it. Unless the agency's testing method is unsound, the industry shouldn't concern itself with the test itself.


The EPA standard is based on their old test. A test that is unsound, and unrealistic, but it created the emissions benchmark that everyone had to meet under similar testing.
This is probably VW's largest black eye in not being able to pass it honestly.

However, now they are instituting new tests. It is entirely rational to want to know what conditions the car will be subjected to in order to meet the new benchmark.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Surf Green said:


> It is entirely rational to want to know what conditions the car will be subjected to in order to meet the new benchmark.


Completely agree.

But whether the EPA should inform VW of every aspect of the testing method is another matter. I think EPA should not be obliged to give VW the test beforehand.

The EPA should be prepared to answer VW if VW says it met the standard but the EPA disagrees. But beyond that, VW's focus should be on meeting the standard.

Okay, enough of me repeating myself


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

I have designed to regulatory standards. Woohoo, I'm a rockstar!

EPA does have to cough up some detail.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

zigster38 said:


> VW will continue to build and sell cars. I'm guessing like everyone else, but I imagine they will finally settle in the 15-20 billion range. The U.S. has no interest in breaking a big allies large business.


The US is just the governing body to which this willful act of corporate malfeasance was initially confessed. This spans many markets and many other governments, from China to Australia to the EU and UK; each of them may elect to also penalize VW.

While I agree that I don't think it is in the best interest of the EU or German government to let VW fail under the massive writedowns that will come from their acts of corporate arrogance and stupidity, it remains to be seen how the company will fare once all other governments weigh in.

As a consumer who purchased a VW TDI--directly after purchasing another new VW 5 weeks previous--I do feel misled by VW. We paid a premium to buy a car that was represented as the best of many worlds; great fuel economy with decent fun to drive factor (especially in comparison to the 2G Prius it replaced) and--so it was sold to us--very low diesel emissions.

I was considering replacing my MkVI GTI with a MkVII Golf R in the next year or so; that's off the table until I see how the company decides to address this with buyers. $500 from VW toward a new car--when our current car is now radioactively unsellable--isn't going to fix this for us.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

deleted posts? or blackholed?


----------



## zigster38 (Jun 20, 1999)

Once those wacky Germans are properly chastised and The Big Settlement Check is written, the boat will be turned around fairly quickly. (Check out those World War rebounds!) A couple weeks before Herr Vinterkorn was canned,, (because he knew what was coming) he was standing in front of some group touting the 20 or so electric and hybrid models VW was developing. Once VW goes hybrid so will the EU.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

'Clean Diesel' Is Dead Forever: Bob Lutz On VW's Culture Of Fear



> "The whole Clean Diesel campaign, as the foundation of the VW brand, cannot be resurrected," Lutz writes. "It's history."
> 
> Several analysts have argued that fallout from the VW scandal will lead to the demise of diesel cars, or possibly a surge of interest in electric cars.
> 
> But while Lutz is essentially declaring diesel dead for passenger cars in the U.S., he recently expressed some equally dour opinions of Tesla.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

VW to launch 'TDI Goodwill Program' next week



> The first is valued at $500 and can be used anywhere – expect something like an American Express gift card –
> while the second card is good for $500 to $750, but can only be used at Volkswagen dealers. The Goodwill Program
> will be open to all four-cylinder TDI owners, regardless of whether they purchased new or used.


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

Wut. VW officials now wary of traveling to US because of potential prosecution ???

http://www.theguardian.com/business...gers-afraid-travel-us-fear-prosecution-report



> Volkswagen managers are worried about travelling to the US, a German newspaper reported on Saturday, saying US investigators have confiscated the passport of an employee who is there on a visit.
> 
> Citing company sources, the Suddeutsche Zeitung said Volkswagen believes the investigators want to prevent the manager from evading questioning or criminal prosecution linked to the diesel emissions scandal.
> 
> ...


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Yup, that's how it works. 

Side story.... A colleague who also did an expat assignment in Germany was detained at Frankfurt on a return visit one time. Turns out our tax service messed something up on his return and never let the company know, so he had some crazy outstanding tax bill. It took a day or two to sort it out, and he was basically in airport jail the whole time. He said it wasn't that bad and the customs officers were actually great, but sorting it out was a total zoo because no one knew what had happened. It wasn't a simple screw up. 

Back on topic, the US would absolutely hold the functioning head of a company if it was determined that the company had committed fraud. So it is unlikely we will get any visits any time soon without the US assuring VW that people can go home. Worse, the US could ask Germany to extradite. 

Like her fabulousness said, what a mess... :facepalm:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Our current presidential administration made sure that nobody went to jail for the housing & banking meltdown, and they had full control of the justice department from 2009 onward. That nearly destroyed the American and world economy and yet they refused to press criminal charges against any executives. No execs at VW will face charges either or else it looks like we're on a witch hunt. Perhaps our new AG (Eric Holder is finally gone) will play pretend with Germany and go after a middle manager for some slap on the wrist and a 2 year sentence that gets commuted after 3 months in a minimum security prison.


----------



## iLucifer (Feb 13, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> Our current presidential administration made sure that nobody went to jail for the housing & banking meltdown, and they had full control of the justice department from 2009 onward. That nearly destroyed the American and world economy and yet they refused to press criminal charges against any executives. No execs at VW will face charges either or else it looks like we're on a witch hunt. Perhaps our new AG (Eric Holder is finally gone) will play pretend with Germany and go after a middle manager for some slap on the wrist and a 2 year sentence that gets commuted after 3 months in a minimum security prison.


Those firm were American firm so they not gona go through what the German firm is gona go through... This will be the great American shake down of VW in the end VW will payout more money to American than to any other market they sold VW in...


----------



## VWRedux (Jun 3, 2009)

*C&D is Dead On... IMO!*

*CAUGHT BLACK-HANDED: WHY DID VOLKSWAGEN CHEAT?*
Car & Driver November 3, 2015 at 10:17 am by Aaron Robinson | Illustration by Sean McCabe and Pete Sucheski 










It’s amusing to watch the mainstream press sink its fangs into an auto scandal. Business-page reporters hurriedly scan the releases and the statements—quickly now, the home page needs updating every 17 seconds—and distill a basic, highly superficial narrative. Press agents for experts in all manner of non-automotive subjects, from business ethics to crisis management to consumer advocacy, flood the email inboxes of the news outlets, their clients desperate for the exposure that comes from getting a rote observation into quotes. The flames of public outrage get fanned for a few days with hyperbolic and often-inaccurate punditry.

Granted, Volkswagen’s diesel doomsday is not a simple story, rife as it is with technical inside-baseball. Basically, VW programmed an algorithmic routine into the controllers of its model-year 2009–2015 2.0-liter turbo-diesel engines that recognized the protocols of the EPA’s FTP-75 test, including the US06 and SC03 cycles, and altered the engine calibrations to selectively reduce oxides of nitrogen to make the engine compliant with U.S. EPA Tier 2, Bin 5 limits, all in violation of sections 203(a)(3)(B) and 203(a)(1) of the Clean Air Act.

Got it?

Legions of TDI owners who thought they bought a “Clean Diesel” (in spite of the slip-slap sound of the stinky, carbon-rich fuel going into their tanks) howled in indignation. Were they victims of a greedy corporate evil, or of ordinary people in the trenches trying to wriggle out of a difficult spot? Here’s a theory on why a carmaker that seemed to have the world conquered made such a heinously bad, unethical, and trust-eroding decision that equally battered both its reputation and its market value.
The pressure on VW engineers to deliver a clean diesel, or one delivering both good fuel economy and low emissions, was titanic.

While other automakers pursued hybrids and electric cars, VW long ago bet its green-tech chips on diesels. The decision was emblematic of VW’s prioritization of Europe, where diesels are popular, over diesel-averse North America, a market the carmaker has traditionally dismissed as secondary. The pressure on VW engineers to deliver a clean diesel, or one delivering both good fuel economy and low emissions, was titanic, but the effort ran headlong into U.S. regulations.

The decision to cheat must have happened sometime before 2009, two years after the EPA’s Tier 2 emissions standards were in full effect. Tier 2 sets extremely difficult requirements for *diesels, cutting allowable oxides of nitrogen by 83 percent over Tier 1 regs, to 0.07 gram per mile (fleet average). NO and NO2 (NOx), the strange chemical compounds formed by the high temperature and pressure of an internal-combustion engine, especially diesels, contribute to ground-level ozone, or smog. Tier 2 established by far the toughest NOx standard in the world.

It came at a bad time for VW. The most effective technology to cut NOx is called selective catalytic reduction (SCR), which involves spritzing small amounts of urea and water into the exhaust stream to facilitate the breakdown of NOx into nitrogen and carbon dioxide. The problem is that SCR requires a tank, a pump, and plumbing—not easy things to package on a small vehicle platform such as the PQ35, the aging component set comprising the fifth-generation Golf and Jetta.
VW faced spending millions on an aging product to make its diesel engines legal in the U.S.

There’s more to putting a urea tank on a car than just lashing it down with zip ties. The floorpan will likely change, the addition of a secondary filler can mean retooling a quarter-panel, and the reengineered car has to go through full crash certification. Golf V owners liked their multilink rear suspensions, a feature that probably would have to be scrapped in favor of a more compact torsion beam to leave room for the tank. (The larger Passat got a urea system in 2012, but VW programmed it so that, apart from the emissions test, it would be stingier with the urea injections, meaning that the owner wouldn’t be inconvenienced with refilling the tank as often.)

With Tier 2 looming, VW faced spending millions on an aging product to make its diesel engines legal in the U.S., one of the smallest diesel-passenger-car markets in the world. In 2007, diesel passenger cars represented only about 0.2 percent of the American market. Factor in the contemporaneous collapse of the world economy and the plunge in U.S. vehicle sales, and VW’s engineers were painted into a corner.

But a new, totally compliant Jetta TDI appeared as a 2009 model. Its supposed silver bullet was an underfloor NOx trap, in which NOx is captured, then converted to nitrogen and carbon dioxide via occasional spurts of diesel fuel. Maybe it didn’t work quite as well as SCR, but it was a lot easier and cheaper to retrofit. And there didn’t seem to be a fuel-economy penalty. The companion 2010 Golf TDI advertised stellar city and highway figures of 30 and 41–42 mpg (depending on the transmission), and owners in forums claimed even higher mileage. What nobody knew then was that the engine was programmed to squirt less fuel into the exhaust when the car was off the test dyno, allowing more NOx out of the tailpipe and raising mileage.

Given the choice of reducing the global problem of CO2 or the local problem of smog, VW’s engineers chose a middle path with a cheat that would give U.S. regulators the low NOx they demanded and TDI buyers the high mileage they wanted. As it happened, the fudge would only be needed for six years, until 2014, when Europe, the market that dominates VW’s decision-making, implemented its own tough NOx standards with the so-called Euro 6 regs. By then, the engineers may have figured, VW could phase in better NOx-eating technology through normal platform updating. Why VW continued to include the software cheat in engines built in 2014 and afterward is anyone’s guess.
From a moral and legal standpoint, the fraud was a colossally bad decision.

The perpetrators likely believed they wouldn’t be caught, as self-certification is the norm under the EPA, which is too cash-strapped to test but 15 percent of the powertrains on the market and is perennially threatened with extinction by Congress. (Independent researchers discovered the ploy.) And if they were caught, VW probably figured, the penalty and market fallout would be small. Perhaps it was an easy choice to cheat. The European competitive environment is rife with deception. Just look at FIFA soccer, where officials are under indictment by U.S. prosecutors. Europeans have a win-by-any-means streak that sometimes emerges under intense pressure. There certainly was pressure. Then-CEO Martin Winterkorn, who took over Volkswagen AG in 2007 determined to make VW the world leader in volume and profit, ordered his staff to deliver a clean diesel that could be sold worldwide and could carry VW’s diesel religion to the New World to convert nonbelievers. And they did deliver. Did Winterkorn know the details? Maybe he didn’t want to. He has denied any knowledge of the deceit.

From a moral and legal standpoint, the fraud was a colossally bad decision. Whether it was a bad financial decision remains to be seen. A half-million cheater diesels were sold in the U.S., with 11 million sold worldwide. Meanwhile, the costs of the scam will take years to measure. It took four years for the federal government to slap a $1.2 billion penalty on Toyota for hiding evidence in its sudden-acceleration investigation, so it’ll be a while before we know how many pounds of VW’s flesh are in play. It almost certainly will be a fraction of the $18 billion widely speculated upon in the press. The rules allow Uncle Sam a lot of wiggle room. This was an emissions issue, after all, not a safety defect involving crashes and fatalities.
Only VW’s accountants will ever know the whole truth.

If you look at the settlement pattern—$935 million for GM, $1.2 billion for Toyota—the fines tend to be starkly punitive but not crushing. Then again, European regulators will likely demand something and there will be civil suits to settle.

Once all the shouting is over, VW’s decision to break the rules may prove hugely damaging, a shattering of its recent momentum that distracts and dispirits the company, opens a crack in its armor for competitors, and scuttles demand for the diesel technology upon which VW has staked so much. Or it might just be a break-even, forcing both VW and government regulators into some uncomfortable but necessary changes while being a financial wash against the sales it generated. Or it may even prove to have saved the company some money over the alternatives available to the engineers at the time.

Only VW’s accountants will ever know the whole truth.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

> VW programmed an algorithmic routine into the controllers of its model-year 2009–2015 2.0-liter turbo-diesel engines that recognized the protocols of the EPA’s FTP-75 test, including the US06 and SC03 cycles, and altered the engine calibrations to selectively reduce oxides of nitrogen to make the engine compliant with U.S. EPA Tier 2, Bin 5 limits, all in violation of sections 203(a)(3)(B) and 203(a)(1) of the Clean Air Act.


I've distilled this down to "VW been bad", and everyone gets it.


----------



## flubber (Sep 12, 2005)

Interesting statement:

http://www.straitstimes.com/lifestyle/motoring/all-diesel-vws-to-have-nitrogen-oxide-neutraliser


> VW is working out a plan to rectify the affected vehicles. Mr Diess [Herbert Diess, chairman of the board of management of the Volkswagen passenger-car brand] says that *for the 2-litre engine, it will probably involve a software modification*. But for the smaller engines, some hardware changes will have to be made.
> 
> How will the cars be affected by the rectification? He would say only that *for those that need a software modification, fuel consumption will not be affected*.
> 
> Going forward, he adds, Volkswagen has decided to equip all diesel cars with selective catalytic reduction (SCR) "as soon as possible".


----------



## flubber (Sep 12, 2005)

http://www.dw.com/en/report-vw-engineer-told-bosses-about-co2-manipulation/a-18834783


> The "Bild am Sonntag" newspaper reported Sunday that an engineer with Volkswagen's research and development department in Wolfsburg told his supervisors about carbon dioxide emissions fraud in the carmaker's models at the end of October.
> 
> Other VW employees have also since admitted to knowledge of the scam, the paper reported.
> 
> ...


----------



## iLucifer (Feb 13, 2003)

Nordea to sue Volkswagen over losses
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/b2088126-8478-11e5-8e80-1574112844fd.html#axzz3qt27FRsC


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

iLucifer said:


> Nordea to sue Volkswagen over losses
> http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/b2088126-8478-11e5-8e80-1574112844fd.html#axzz3qt27FRsC


The link requires a login. Can you post the text?


----------



## iLucifer (Feb 13, 2003)

Lwize said:


> The link requires a login. Can you post the text?


They being sue by shareholder for fraud. Sorry can't cut and paste, doing that can get vwvortex in trouble..
Or you got to do is answer a few question and they let you read the article.. just a few clicks less than 10 second...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

The scandal finds itself in the news even when not trying.

http://247wallst.com/special-report/2015/10/29/10-brands-that-will-disappear-in-2016/



24x7 Wall Street said:


> *10 Brands That Will Disappear in 2016*
> 
> Each year, 24/7 Wall St. identifies 10 American brands that we predict will disappear, either through bankruptcies or because of mergers. Bankruptcies of large public companies in 2015 have already exceeded 2014 totals. Similarly, the total value of mergers and acquisitions is projected to hit a record high in 2015. While some of the companies on this list may disappear because they continue to be at the bottom of their industry, some may disappear because they are doing well.
> 
> ...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Lwize said:


> The link requires a login. Can you post the text?


If you do a bing/google news search based on the headline, I was able to find a version of it that didn't require a login. The bottom line is that Nordea is a massive holding company for Nordic countries that manages around $200 Billion in assets. Fund managers have a double-edged sword with lawsuits, of course. The cost of any lawsuit reduces shareholder value and most of these giant funds still own shares. So if they sue, they decrease the value of their existing shares. If they don't sue, the company that engaged in wrongdoing may feel emboldened to do it again in the future.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

AZGolf said:


> The scandal finds itself in the news even when not trying.
> 
> http://247wallst.com/special-report/2015/10/29/10-brands-that-will-disappear-in-2016/


I think that this is a given. It's already pretty much disappeared from racing with Audi switching over to the E-Tron powertrains. 

Uh oh.... What if Audi found out and said oh, no, we aren't playing that game, let's go racing with electrons....


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)




----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> The scandal finds itself in the news even when not trying.
> 
> http://247wallst.com/special-report/2015/10/29/10-brands-that-will-disappear-in-2016/


Man, no Sears, where will I buy my tools now.... Guess I'll have to go to harbor Freight more often, some there tools seems to be just as good as Craftsman these days.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

AJB said:


> Man, no Sears, where will I buy my tools now.... Guess I'll have to go to harbor Freight more often, some there tools seems to be just as good as Craftsman these days.


Sears the department store has been on its way down but their Kenmore and Craftsman brands still have a lot of value and apparently their automotive service centers do just fine too. There's been some talk of breaking the company up into multiple smaller companies. So Kenmore would become an appliance store or perhaps just a brand of its own and then Kenmore appliances could be sold in _any_ retail store, such as showing up in your local Home Improvement store, Best Buy, or whatever.

The same applies for Craftsman; they might be broken out to be their own set of stores, such as to compete against Ace Hardware, Harbor Freight, and whatever other small players there are in the world of tools, lawn equipment, and misc man stuff. With Home Depot and Lowes both already having contracts for their own tools, it seems less likely that they'd be eager to resell the Craftsman tools if they attempted to sell through alternate retail stores. Still, we'll see.

As for the automotive service centers, as long as they don't totally screw anything up, there's no reason to believe that they would have any trouble on their own either. Look at all the bad press that Jiffy Lube and other quick-change shops get and yet they still do plenty of business. If anything, the Sears centers are know for being a good step up from the oil change scam stores, so I believe they could break out and run on their own. Sears' problem seems to be with the core mall business of selling clothes, shoes, bedding, and everything else and simply not doing that as well as the other players in that field. Kenmore, Craftsman, and Sears Auto all have value on their own if they have to break them out somehow.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

VW engineers admitted rigging CO2 emissions

Now it's more than just NOx.

Oh, and look out now: Lawsuit claims AMD lied about the number of cores in its chips!!!

Uh Oh! The lies just keep coming!


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

It's 2015 I thought all lawyers have been abolished?


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> Sears the department store has been on its way down but their Kenmore and Craftsman brands still have a lot of value and apparently their automotive service centers do just fine too. There's been some talk of breaking the company up into multiple smaller companies. So Kenmore would become an appliance store or perhaps just a brand of its own and then Kenmore appliances could be sold in _any_ retail store, such as showing up in your local Home Improvement store, Best Buy, or whatever.
> 
> *The same applies for Craftsman; they might be broken out to be their own set of stores, such as to compete against Ace Hardware, Harbor Freight, and whatever other small players there are in the world of tools, lawn equipment, and misc man stuff.* With Home Depot and Lowes both already having contracts for their own tools, it seems less likely that they'd be eager to resell the Craftsman tools if they attempted to sell through alternate retail stores. Still, we'll see.


Ace Hardware already sells Craftsman tools, as does K Mart. I knew there was a big merger/tie-in between Sears and K Mart, but I had no idea that Ace was connected in any way. I still don't, as it could just mean that Ace is a retailer for Sears' brand of tools.

Does anyone know for sure?


----------



## Code Red! (Sep 22, 2011)

No idea on the tools sub-thread but just heard on the radio this little blip:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/08/b...n-may-offer-cash-to-ease-owners-ire.html?_r=0

Volkswagen May Offer Cash to Ease Owners’ Ire

FRANKFURT — Volkswagen is expected to offer cash to the owners of diesel cars in the United States this coming week as it steps up an effort to recover some of the good will it lost after admitting in September that the vehicles were programmed to cheat on emissions tests.

Volkswagen officials said the company would make an announcement on Monday but would not confirm a report on an automotive website that diesel owners would be offered up to $1,250. The site, The Truth About Cars, said the owners would get a cash card worth $500 that they could spend any way they liked, and another $500 to $750 that they could spend at a Volkswagen dealer.

The company faces lawsuits from owners seeking compensation for the decreased resale value of the roughly 500,000 Volkswagen and Audi vehicles that were equipped with illegal software. It was not clear whether owners would have to give up any rights to sue if they accepted the cash.

The software allowed the cars to detect when emissions testing was underway and turn on the emissions controls. But when the cars were on the road, they emitted up to 40 times the permissible amount of nitrogen oxide, which is harmful to the lungs.

Volkswagen has promised to make changes to cars so they comply with emissions limits. But the repairs are likely to be costly and complicated, and Volkswagen has not said how they would be carried out. Two dealers said on Saturday that they were aware that Volkswagen was planning something but did not know specifics. “There is a program in the works with VW, that I do understand,” said Alan Brown, head of an association of Volkswagen dealers.

Cars with illegal software include diesel Golf, Jetta, Beetle and Passat models sold since the 2009 model year, as well as Audi A3 cars.

The Environmental Protection Agency said on Monday that some larger Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche diesel vehicles, all of which are produced by Volkswagen, also had software that was not allowed.

But Volkswagen has denied that the software in those cars was designed to cheat on emissions tests, and they would probably not be eligible for the cash compensation.

Already, Volkswagen has been trying to minimize the damage to sales by offering cash incentives to existing owners if they buy or lease a new car, as well as big discounts for all buyers.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

Where's the cash for diminished value of non-Diesel VW's? 
Diesel owners weren't the only one's affected by this fracas.


----------



## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

id rather have the amount of value my car has lost removed from my loan then get a gift card


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

oldschool eighty8 said:


> id rather have the amount of value my car has lost removed from my loan then get a gift card


Maybe your lender will accept the gift card (typically a VISA card) as payment against your loan. Another option is to sell the gift card on eBay then use the cash to pay down the loan.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

I'm betting that in order to get the gift card from VW, you have to fill out a form. In that form will be a legally binding agreement that you will not sue them for any reason, either directly or by joining a class-action lawsuit.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> I'm betting that in order to get the gift card from VW, you have to fill out a form. In that form will be a legally binding agreement that you will not sue them for any reason, either directly or by joining a class-action lawsuit.


I haven't read the whole thing, but it smells like hush money.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

Lol $500 to spend on whatever and up to $750 to spend at the dealer?? That's definitely not going to make anyone happy at all. They really don't know how to make people happy if the amounts above are realistic.


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

wannabeeuroTR said:


> Lol $500 to spend on whatever and up to $750 to spend at the dealer?? That's definitely not going to make anyone happy at all. They really don't know how to make people happy if the amounts above are realistic.


VW is not obligated to give TDI owners anything. 

Go join a class action suit and wait a couple years for a $55 settlement.


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)

I don't own VW diesel, or even a VW any more, but how can I get me some of this sweet free money?


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

shawshank redemption said:


> VW is not obligated to give TDI owners anything.
> 
> Go join a class action suit and wait a couple years for a $55 settlement.


I don't mind the money at all. I'm talking in general for the people that are looking for reasons to sue companies over things like this. It's really those people that VW is trying to make happy but not going to accomplish with a $500 gift card. I'm fine with free $500 bux by all means.


----------



## Egz (May 30, 2002)

Lwize said:


> Where's the cash for diminished value of non-Diesel VW's?
> Diesel owners weren't the only one's affected by this fracas.


My sister just traded her 2.5 Jetta in for a MDX because they wanted something bigger, and got tore apart on the trade-in because of dieselgate. I guess that's the penalty for being impatient.


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

wannabeeuroTR said:


> Lol $500 to spend on whatever and up to $750 to spend at the dealer?? That's definitely not going to make anyone happy at all. They really don't know how to make people happy if the amounts above are realistic.


With these kinds of things, you have to put a threshold someplace, as for some $1200 will be more than sufficient, and others no dollar amount will "fix" their suffering. Personally as a 2015 GSW TDI owner, two months into ownership I would be happy with $1200, since I love the car and bought it in the first place to drive the whels off of it (So re-sale value doesn't mean anything to me today). I would probably be more happy with a free upgrade to Apple play from the 2016 cars, than a gift card or $1200 though.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

Egz said:


> My sister just traded her 2.5 Jetta in for a MDX because they wanted something bigger, and got tore apart on the trade-in because of dieselgate. I guess that's the penalty for being impatient.


I'm shopping for a new car, but my gasser MKV is off the table for trade-in. I'm not going to give it away!


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

In our house, it's like, oooohhhhh free money!! And free roof rack!


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

atomicalex said:


> In our house, it's like, oooohhhhh free money!! And free roof rack!


Yea same here. It will go towards my mk3. Kind of disappointing that the 2nd gift card is only to use at the dealer but I guess if it's good to buy parts with, I'm sure that can be used easily.


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

atomicalex said:


> In our house, it's like, oooohhhhh free money!! *And free roof rack!*


and a hot plate!


----------



## uncle_scott (Oct 12, 2009)

Lwize said:


> Where's the cash for diminished value of non-Diesel VW's?
> Diesel owners weren't the only one's affected by this fracas.


I am wondering this too. We lease a 2014 Golf gas model, and the value has plummeted in the past few weeks. I was hoping to get out of the lease a little early by selling the vehicle for what we owe, but any potential for that has evaporated. We will be fine riding the lease out, but the company should acknowledge that this is not affecting diesel vehicles only.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Program is now announced:

VW offers 'goodwill package' to appease diesel owners



> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen of America will offer $500 to owners of 2.0-liter diesel vehicles with illegal emissions test-rigging software, part of a “goodwill” package aimed at calming customers affected by the company’s deception.
> 
> The $500 will come on a prepaid Visa card and can be used wherever Visa is accepted, VW said in a statement. As part of the package, affected owners will also receive a second prepaid card worth $500 that can be redeemed at VW dealerships, and three years of 24-hour roadside assistance.
> 
> ...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

All right, so the $500 that can only be redeemed at a VW dealer is a gimme for the dealers' service departments. If I received such a card and had some out of warranty stuff that I'd been putting off fixing, this would be a great way to get that customer to come in to the service department to get it fixed. The dealer gets money doing service on the customer's car, and the customer gets up to $500 worth of free repairs or maintenance done. Since the affected cars go all the way back to 2009, there's bound to be plenty of out of warranty cars out there at this point, especially since VW's warranty period is so short in comparison to the miles per year that TDI owners drive.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

spockcat said:


> Maybe your lender will accept the gift card (typically a VISA card) as payment against your loan. Another option is to sell the gift card on eBay then use the cash to pay down the loan.


or just pay for gas, groceries, etc... and send an extra $500 to the car loan.

not everyone is going to have a loan to pay down... so this way is MUCH easier to fund. 
not to mention administer.
imagine trying to track down everyones loans, sending out the eft's, confirming them... resending failed attempts etc. no thanks. not for a "one time" payment scenario like this.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

I may be an anomaly but I guess I had a different experience this past saturday. Traded in my 2010 GTI that had 100k+ for ~8.5k at the Audi dealer. This was the same price another Audi dealer offered me in August. Selling it privately I was expecting to only get 10-11k max so I personally did not see an effect in value on the GTI.

Edit: Just saw the post above for the $500 cash. I am not personally effected so my opinion may be meaningless, but for now $500 to spend anywhere (free holiday money :laugh and $500 to spend at the dealer for parts, accessories or repairs does not seem too bad. The 3 years of 24 hour road side seems like a good add on also just to try and sweeten the pot for now as more news trickles out for TDI owners.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

AZGolf said:


> All right, so the $500 that can only be redeemed at a VW dealer is a gimme for the dealers' service departments. If I received such a card and had some out of warranty stuff that I'd been putting off fixing, this would be a great way to get that customer to come in to the service department to get it fixed. The dealer gets money doing service on the customer's car, and the customer gets up to $500 worth of free repairs or maintenance done. Since the affected cars go all the way back to 2009, there's bound to be plenty of out of warranty cars out there at this point, especially since VW's warranty period is so short in comparison to the miles per year that TDI owners drive.


Or, alternatively, another $1000 towards getting out of your TDI and into something else...

Also... $482,000,000 is a lot of money.... One has to wonder if making the engine compliant in the first place would have been a better idea... and we are just getting started with tangible money losses...


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

spockcat said:


> Program is now announced:
> 
> VW offers 'goodwill package' to appease diesel owners
> 
> ...


two key items.
this is a first step... which is what i expected it to be. since its really NOT equal to the potential damages, and getting into a class action would be fairly worthless to recover that amount per person

you can still sue us. its good that they arent trying to use this to limit the legal hit.


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Lwize said:


> Where's the cash for diminished value of non-Diesel VW's?
> Diesel owners weren't the only one's affected by this fracas.


Oh boo hoo. Life happens. Get over it.

VW can do anything to gain a bad public image but pissing off the public is not an illegal activity.

Making and selling a fraudulent product however is illegal. If yours wasn't sold to you under fraudulent means, too bad.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

E CODE said:


> Also... $482,000,000 is a lot of money....


You have to sign up for it in order to get the money. I'd bet no more than 50% of eligible people will bother to sign up. Maybe even worse, if they make the process as bad as it is for getting mail-in rebates. I've read that something like half the people who start to sign up for a mail-in rebate abandon part-way through because of the trouble of providing documentation to prove they're eligible.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

10. Waiver of right to trial by jury
you and we acknowledge that the right to trial by
jury is a constitutional right but may be waived in certain
circumstances. To the extent permitted by law, you and
we knowingly and voluntarily waive any right to trial by
jury in the event of litigation arising out of or related
to this agreement. This jury trial waiver shall not
affect or be interpreted as modifying in any fashion the
dispute clause set forth in the following section, if
applicable, which contains its own separate jury trial
waiver.
In the event of any dispute or claim relating in any
way to this agreement, customer agrees that such
dispute shall be resolved by binding arbitration with
the american arbitration association, utilizing the rules
of procedure of such arbitration service, further, any
such arbitration shall take place in sioux falls, south
dakota and the laws of the state of south dakota shall
apply. The decision of an arbitrator will be final and
subect to enforcement in a court of competent
jurisdiction


----------



## Code Red! (Sep 22, 2011)

Just one small item to note for anyone on here who might be getting the free VISA card... some retailers won't allow you complete a purchase with multiple "credit" cards. I've seen it with a simple $50 VISA gift card, being unable to buy an item for $55 and putting the remaining balance on a second card on places like Amazon. 

So just fair warning to check out whatever you plan to do with the good will money, save yourself a headache before buying something.

Otherwise it's a good beginning offer, lets hope the "fix" will be coming soon so we can see what the official resolution to the TDI issue will be.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

AZGolf said:


> You have to sign up for it in order to get the money. I'd bet no more than 50% of eligible people will bother to sign up. Maybe even worse, if they make the process as bad as it is for getting mail-in rebates. I've read that something like half the people who start to sign up for a mail-in rebate abandon part-way through because of the trouble of providing documentation to prove they're eligible.


Yes, but a) we are talking about $1000.... that's not a small amount to anybody, really. And b) the $482M was a simple calculation, and I'm sure not all of it will be needed, but VW needs to assume that it does...


----------



## SoLo2pointO (Jul 12, 2001)

AZGolf said:


> You have to sign up for it in order to get the money. I'd bet no more than 50% of eligible people will bother to sign up. Maybe even worse, if they make the process as bad as it is for getting mail-in rebates. I've read that something like half the people who start to sign up for a mail-in rebate abandon part-way through because of the trouble of providing documentation to prove they're eligible.


This seems relatively simple, though. Punch up your VIN, then take the car to the dealer for activation. Not terrible for me, since I drive by my dealer on my way to/from work.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> You have to sign up for it in order to get the money. I'd bet no more than 50% of eligible people will bother to sign up. Maybe even worse, if they make the process as bad as it is for getting mail-in rebates. I've read that something like half the people who start to sign up for a mail-in rebate abandon part-way through because of the trouble of providing documentation to prove they're eligible.


honestly doenst sound all that bad to apply.

>>>
To use the funds, customers will have to jump through a few hoops. A vehicle identification number must be used at a VW website, www.vwdieselinfo.com, to see whether a car and owner is eligible under the offer. If a customer’s vehicle is covered, the owner must enter contact information and the current odometer mileage. Customers will then receive the prepaid cards in the mail within four weeks, VW said.

To activate the cards, customers must bring them into a dealership, along with the eligible vehicle, a driver’s license and proof of ownership.
>>>


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> *You have to sign up for it in order to get the money.* I'd bet no more than 50% of eligible people will bother to sign up. Maybe even worse, if they make the process as bad as it is for getting mail-in rebates. I've read that something like half the people who start to sign up for a mail-in rebate abandon part-way through because of the trouble of providing documentation to prove they're eligible.


And I bet you that that is a smart move by VW. It will weed out those that actually care versus those that do not. Those that do will be willing to follow through with the process to verify that they do in fact drive an affected vehicle and get compensated. In a perfect world, VW would be paying couriers to hand deliver $1000 to each and every customer personally at that owner's personal convenience. Logistically, that would be an absolute nightmare.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

E CODE said:


> Yes, but a) we are talking about $1000.... that's not a small amount to anybody, really. And b) the $482M was a simple calculation, and I'm sure not all of it will be needed, but VW needs to assume that it does...


lets also not forget that $500 of this is in dealer cash.
that some of that money is right back into their pockets.


----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

I have a (so far) compliant TDI.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> I've read that something like half the people who start to sign up for a mail-in rebate abandon part-way through because *they're either lazy, or forget where the receipt is, and generally unearth it 6 months after the rebate period is over.*


FTFY. Every rebate I've made the effort to apply for has been at my door in the stated 4-6 weeks. When I don't get a rebate... I don't blame anyone but myself.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

Who here has signed up for the cards? I'm hesitating for some reason...


----------



## SoLo2pointO (Jul 12, 2001)

PnZrFsT said:


> Who here has signed up for the cards? I'm hesitating for some reason...


I couldn't find any real damning fine print that said if you signed up, you would be ineligible for a future-trade in, or by signing up would make the (unannounced) fix mandatory or something wacky like it...


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

seems like an odd hassle. i've had VW send me a check in the mail for comparable amount for nothing in return (also a visa card)


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

ClownCar said:


> I don't own VW diesel, or even a VW any more, but how can I get me some of this sweet free money?


1) You have to own a product you wouldn't have known to be defective unless someone told you.

2) You have to be horrified that said product can not be worth as much as you think it should if you were to sell it second hand, and even less if you traded it in.

3) Moral outrage must bubble from within, if visually recognized you get extra (a lone tear would be fantastic).

4) You must show true signs of having been the receiver of broken trust (e.g. an internet manifesto). As an American consumer the trust you have in your favorite brands is directly connected to your internal bliss.

5) Not necessary, but a fantastic boon, get news coverage (at least FOX).

6a) Join Class Action Suit and receive $78.54usd three years later or;
6b) Guilt Company into giving you a gift card and swag.

7) Profit (providing the compensation from 6a or 6b equaled the time and effort you put into steps 1 through 5).


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

$500 in dealer money for snow tires
$500 for Christmas presents

Keeps me happy until i find out what the fix is. I am 4.5 years into ownership and my plan when I bought the car was to keep it 10 years. The next car in the stable due for replacement is the CRV sometime in 2016. If the fix for the VW turns my car into something I don't want to keep for another 5 years, that screws up my vehicle replacement plan. Though getting the CRV to 15 years will probably be pretty painless.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> I'm betting that in order to get the gift card from VW, you have to fill out a form. In that form will be a legally binding agreement that you will not sue them for any reason, either directly or by joining a class-action lawsuit.


Maybe you'll also have to have the recall performed?

I read something you have to take it in to verify the model is effected, maybe
is also when they'll flash it.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

PnZrFsT said:


> Who here has signed up for the cards? I'm hesitating for some reason...


I did. I figure I can pull out by not "activating the goodwill package." Need to get those snow tires before the Michelin promotion ends.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I ended up purchasing a TDI. 

So yea, I totally signed up for this!


----------



## jcha (Jun 11, 1999)

PnZrFsT said:


> Who here has signed up for the cards? I'm hesitating for some reason...


I've signed up. As a recent purchaser of a "generation 3" vehicle who loves his car and intends to keep it forever, I'm happy with their "goodwill" effort. It'll be nice to have VW pay for my season's ski pass!


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

VT1.8T said:


> I did. I figure I can pull out by not "activating the goodwill package." Need to get those snow tires before the Michelin promotion ends.


Good point! I just registered now. Figured I might as well get a jump on the 4 week wait time.


----------



## Midwesterner (Sep 9, 2003)

You ALWAYS get torn apart on trade-ins. I've never traded in a car in my life. Sell it outright yourself to a private party. My cars are well maintained and its never taken me more than a week to sell anything.



Egz said:


> My sister just traded her 2.5 Jetta in for a MDX because they wanted something bigger, and got tore apart on the trade-in because of dieselgate. I guess that's the penalty for being impatient.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Is this a new development?

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/09/vw-engineers-co2-emissions-cheat/



> A second emissions scandal rocked Volkswagen recently when it admitted that carbon dioxide emissions and fuel economy figures were incorrect for 800,000 vehicles. Engineers at the automaker have now admitted to cheating on the results, according to Reuters citing a report from Germany's Bild am Sonntag. The employees claimed that former CEO Martin Winterkorn's emissions goals were too hard to achieve, but the workers didn't want to tell their boss.
> 
> Winterkorn announced in 2012 that VW would reduce vehicle CO2 emissions by 30 percent by 2015 compared to 2006 levels, but the engineers weren't able to perform the cuts. To artificially improve the results the workers raised tire pressures and mixed diesel with the motor oil to make the vehicles use less fuel. This deception occurred from 2013 through this spring, and it only came to light when an employee revealed the cheating to his bosses at the end of October, according to Reuters.
> 
> ...


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Midwesterner said:


> You ALWAYS get torn apart on trade-ins. I've never traded in a car in my life. Sell it outright yourself to a private party. My cars are well maintained and its never taken me more than a week to sell anything.


most of the time yes. but if your car is worth a good deal, dont discount trade in completely. since in a lot of places the trade in value is discounted off the purchase price when calculating tax.
in my area of WA state, that is almost $100 for every thousand in value traded.

this wont always offset the price difference between private party and trade in... but it can go a good ways, plus it ends up completely hassle free. and THAT can be worth a lot instead of dealing with countless craigslist lowballers, scheduling test drives, etc.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

VT1.8T said:


> $500 in dealer money for snow tires
> $500 for Christmas presents


In 2x, luckily current potential buyer of my 2012 isn't in a rush but hopefully VW is 


Snow tires, lots of oil, and some parts for my A3 should take care of the dealer cash part.


----------



## TangoRed (Sep 7, 2005)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Is this a new development?
> 
> http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/09/vw-engineers-co2-emissions-cheat/


No


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

My lawyer is advising not to accept the cash, or go into class action. VW has too much pull. They are suing as a mass tort claim, which means each case is individual and therefore much more more expensive for VW and much much more settlement $$$ for owners.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Aseras said:


> My lawyer is advising not to accept the cash, or go into class action. VW has too much pull. They are suing as a mass tort claim, which means each case is individual and therefore much more more expensive for VW and much much more settlement $$$ for owners.


How much do they think your mental anguish over this horrible crime will net you?

I should add this as step 6c........


----------



## Jimmy Russells (Feb 4, 2007)

AZGolf said:


> You have to sign up for it in order to get the money. I'd bet no more than 50% of eligible people will bother to sign up. Maybe even worse, if they make the process as bad as it is for getting mail-in rebates. I've read that something like half the people who start to sign up for a mail-in rebate abandon part-way through because of the trouble of providing documentation to prove they're eligible.



That's exactly why they do that, rather than instant rebates.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

ThreadBomber said:


> That's exactly why they do that, rather than instant rebates.


Yeah and this sounds even harder than typical mail-in rebates. Not only do you have to fill out forms online, but you then have to go through significantly more steps including going to the dealer.










I know how lazy most people are and I've seen the stats on mail-in rebates. Hell, I saw the stats for a class-action lawsuit once that was worth over $1000 per person and they had a 9% completion rate as far as people simply writing their name on a pre-printed postcard and mailing it in.

I stand by my estimate that they'll have less than 50% participation, and likely less than 33% participation even. I doubt they'll release that in any of their public documentation though, and perhaps find a way to bury it among related charges in their public earnings announcements too. As was also pointed out, because you only have 6 months to complete it (less now, actually) that too will limit the number of people who participate versus something that's valid for a year.


----------



## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

VW engineers confess cheating to lower CO2 emissions
A second emissions scandal rocked Volkswagen recently when it admitted that carbon dioxide emissions and fuel economy figures were incorrect for 800,000 vehicles. Engineers at the automaker have now admitted to cheating on the results, according to _Reuters_ citing a report from Germany's _Bild am Sonntag_. The employees claimed that former CEO Martin Winterkorn's emissions goals were too hard to achieve, but the workers didn't want to tell their boss.

Winterkorn announced in 2012 that VW would reduce vehicle CO2 emissions by 30 percent by 2015 compared to 2006 levels, but the engineers weren't able to perform the cuts. To artificially improve the results the workers raised tire pressures and mixed diesel with the motor oil to make the vehicles use less fuel. This deception occurred from 2013 through this spring, and it only came to light when an employee revealed the cheating to his bosses at the end of October, according to _Reuters_.

The CO2 scandal has the biggest effect in Europe where governments often link emissions and vehicle taxes. VW pledges to make things right by paying the fees for any impacted customers. When it announced the scandal, the company estimated the cost of the problem at the equivalent of $2.2 billion.

Auto industry veteran Bob Lutz recently speculated in an op-ed for _Road & Track_ that an internal culture of intimidating workers could be blamed for the diesel emissions cheating. In that piece, he singles out former supervisory board chairman Ferdinand Piëch for pressuring employees rather than Winterkorn.


http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/09/vw-engineers-co2-emissions-cheat/


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Aseras said:


> My lawyer is advising not to accept the cash, or go into class action. VW has too much pull. They are suing as a mass tort claim, which means each case is individual and therefore much more more expensive for VW and much much more settlement $$$ for owners.


You better hope they settle if you haven't researched jury's in your area.

GF is a law clerk and said in our area they often award little to nothing. There was a recent trial where they were doing what you did, people individually suing a drug company to sort of set a basis for a pay out prior to trying to do a class action or something like that. 5-6 previous ones were awarded couple hundred grand. Local jury seeing all the same evidence and experts? I think she said they awarded something like 2-4k... 

I'd say good luck but I don't want my sarcasm to possibly be misinterpreted as genuine.


----------



## jcha (Jun 11, 1999)

chris86vw said:


> I'd say good luck but I don't want my sarcasm to possibly be misinterpreted as genuine.


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::beer:


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

chris86vw said:


> You better hope they settle if you haven't researched jury's in your area.
> 
> GF is a law clerk and said in our area they often award little to nothing. There was a recent trial where they were doing what you did, people individually suing a drug company to sort of set a basis for a pay out prior to trying to do a class action or something like that. 5-6 previous ones were awarded couple hundred grand. Local jury seeing all the same evidence and experts? I think she said they awarded something like 2-4k...
> 
> I'd say good luck but I don't want my sarcasm to possibly be misinterpreted as genuine.


Juries and courts in my area are quite well know for CREAMING companies. It's south Florida, they do this stuff day in and out. They know what they are talking about. I got my $400 check from buying a 9wz from VW and the attorney got all their fees ( $2000+ ) from the bluetooth fiasco years ago.

I have very little doubt they will easily get me more than a $500 debit card and a useless gift card and way less hoops.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

AZGolf said:


> Yeah and this sounds even harder than typical mail-in rebates. Not only do you have to fill out forms online, but you then have to go through significantly more steps including going to the dealer.
> 
> I know how lazy most people are and I've seen the stats on mail-in rebates. Hell, I saw the stats for a class-action lawsuit once that was worth over $1000 per person and they had a 9% completion rate as far as people simply writing their name on a pre-printed postcard and mailing it in.
> 
> I stand by my estimate that they'll have less than 50% participation, and likely less than 33% participation even. I doubt they'll release that in any of their public documentation though, and perhaps find a way to bury it among related charges in their public earnings announcements too. As was also pointed out, because you only have 6 months to complete it (less now, actually) that too will limit the number of people who participate versus something that's valid for a year.



Can I ask what you would propose then? Should VW look up all current owners of a 2009+ TDI and just send them two gift cards in the mail and call it a day? If a customer feels so wronged by this, taking the 15 minutes to complete the VIN look up and send the info, and then spending the hour to drive to the dealer, activate, and drive home should be worth $1k to them. If its not, then they should not complain about VW compensating them. 

I would argue that this is completely different than a mail-in rebate also. What are most mail-in rebates for, medium purchases that probably return you $50 to $200. I'm sure people rationalize that, that is not worth it.


----------



## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

FastGTi said:


> VW engineers confess cheating to lower CO2 emissions
> A second emissions scandal rocked Volkswagen recently when it admitted that carbon dioxide emissions and fuel economy figures were incorrect for 800,000 vehicles. Engineers at the automaker have now admitted to cheating on the results, according to _Reuters_ citing a report from Germany's _Bild am Sonntag_. The employees claimed that former CEO Martin Winterkorn's emissions goals were too hard to achieve, but the workers didn't want to tell their boss.
> 
> Winterkorn announced in 2012 that VW would reduce vehicle CO2 emissions by 30 percent by 2015 compared to 2006 levels, but the engineers weren't able to perform the cuts. To artificially improve the results the workers raised tire pressures and mixed diesel with the motor oil to make the vehicles use less fuel. This deception occurred from 2013 through this spring, and it only came to light when an employee revealed the cheating to his bosses at the end of October, according to _Reuters_.
> ...




This is so page 184: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...0-vehicles&p=89801457&viewfull=1#post89801457


----------



## rlfletch (Jun 11, 2000)

FastGTi said:


> VW engineers confess cheating to lower CO2 emissions
> A second emissions scandal rocked Volkswagen recently when it admitted that carbon dioxide emissions and fuel economy figures were incorrect for 800,000 vehicles. Engineers at the automaker have now admitted to cheating on the results, according to _Reuters_ citing a report from Germany's _Bild am Sonntag_. The employees claimed that former CEO Martin Winterkorn's emissions goals were too hard to achieve, but the workers didn't want to tell their boss.
> 
> Winterkorn announced in 2012 that VW would reduce vehicle CO2 emissions by 30 percent by 2015 compared to 2006 levels, but the engineers weren't able to perform the cuts. To artificially improve the results the workers raised tire pressures and mixed diesel with the motor oil to make the vehicles use less fuel. This deception occurred from 2013 through this spring, and it only came to light when an employee revealed the cheating to his bosses at the end of October, according to _Reuters_.
> ...


I thought the cheater motors predate this time line? Peich strikes again!


----------



## LieutenantShinySides (May 4, 2007)

AZGolf said:


> Yeah and this sounds even harder than typical mail-in rebates. Not only do you have to fill out forms online, but you then have to go through significantly more steps including going to the dealer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just filled mine out on my phone and it took less than 5 minutes. :shrug:


----------



## hayde89 (Jun 22, 2015)

*Why are you all so DAMN lazy?*

You guys do know it literally takes 2 minutes to complete this right? If you don't have two minutes then I feel sad for you son. Honestly read through everything... You're not waving any rights to sue or anything. It's $1000 dollars for you to throw around for nothing more than owning a smog machine. It's a start so get to it. $1000 dollars is insulting but it's better than nothing at this point. Hopefully there will be more incentive.


----------



## dpmark (Mar 3, 2008)

Note that Audi of America will post details of a "similar" program on Friday for A3 TDI owners. Link. Obviously it'll be for more money b/c the A3TDI was more expensive than any VW TDI currently included in the goodwill program </sarcasm>!


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

grawk said:


> 10. Waiver of right to trial by jury
> you and we acknowledge that the right to trial by
> jury is a constitutional right but may be waived in certain
> circumstances. To the extent permitted by law, you and
> ...


Exactly why I wouldn't take the goodwill offer. This benefits their (likely suffering) dealers more than it does consumers. What bull****. VW should be ashamed.


----------



## LieutenantShinySides (May 4, 2007)

Personally, I'm not interested in litigation. I like my car and intend to keep it so taking a free DSG service and $500 makes sense for me.


----------



## najel (Apr 10, 2008)

Numbersix said:


> Exactly why I wouldn't take the goodwill offer. This benefits their (likely suffering) dealers more than it does consumers. What bull****. VW should be ashamed.


This is not actually in the rules for this...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

najel said:


> This is not actually in the rules for this...


It is in the card holder policy. I guess at this point it is unclear if it means you waive the right specifically to anything related to the card only or in general against VW, I'm leaning towards the former. 

But forwarded it to the GF to see what she thinks.


----------



## BeBop! (Jun 18, 2009)

chris86vw said:


> It is in the card holder policy. I guess at this point it is unclear if it means you waive the right specifically to anything related to the card only or in general against VW, I'm leaning towards the former.
> 
> But forwarded it to the GF to see what she thinks.


GF must be a lawyer ... let us know what she thinks.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

grawk said:


> 10. Waiver of right to trial by jury
> you and we acknowledge that the right to trial by
> jury is a constitutional right but may be waived in certain
> circumstances. To the extent permitted by law, you and
> ...


you pulled this off of the visa card agreement.
i am fairly certain this is standard practice with any cc issuance, and in no way limits you from pursuing an a case against vw for the emissions/mileage/power/value issues.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Numbersix said:


> Exactly why I wouldn't take the goodwill offer. This benefits their (likely suffering) dealers more than it does consumers. What bull****. VW should be ashamed.


i just replied to this post, and i could be mistaken. but that looks like waiving jury trial in lieu of arbitration ONLY in regards to the CC issuance agreement, not the VW emissions issue.
that agreement is very similar, if not verbatim to what i have seen for every CC i have been issued.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

coderedcomputing said:


> Just one small item to note for anyone on here who might be getting the free VISA card... some retailers won't allow you complete a purchase with multiple "credit" cards. I've seen it with a simple $50 VISA gift card, being unable to buy an item for $55 and putting the remaining balance on a second card on places like Amazon.
> 
> So just fair warning to check out whatever you plan to do with the good will money, save yourself a headache before buying something.
> 
> Otherwise it's a good beginning offer, lets hope the "fix" will be coming soon so we can see what the official resolution to the TDI issue will be.


Was this online? or B&M?

i ask because i used to often get gift cards from rebates, and monthly commuting incentives... we used almost all the cards are department stores, grocery stores. never an issue at any location like that.

actually our biggest issues come from using CC gift cards at restaurants, since they always end up trying to post/preauthorize the bill + 20%, and if it falls over the amount on the card the transaction will be failed.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

LieutenantShinySides said:


> I just filled mine out on my phone and it took less than 5 minutes. :shrug:


Well, that's just like, your opinion, man.... 

:laugh:


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

LieutenantShinySides said:


> I just filled mine out on my phone and it took less than 5 minutes. :shrug:


5 minutes!! now you have to wait 4 weeks and will eventually having to go for a 15 minute ride to the dealership.
too much hassle :banghead:

opcorn:


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Aseras said:


> My lawyer is advising not to accept the cash, or go into class action. VW has too much pull. They are suing as a mass tort claim, which means each case is individual and therefore much more more expensive for VW and much much more settlement $$$ for owners.


If you are being billed for your lawyers time how much time can you (or anyone) afford to pay them before coming out ahead is unlikely to happen? I guess you can hope for "X" plus lawyer fees but I can't see then amount of time involved and hassle being far enough above a class action settlement to make sense. 

Also, the only way your lawyer gets anything out of this is for you to not go class action or settle? Just wonder about motives for their advice.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

grawk said:


> 10. Waiver of right to trial by jury
> you and we acknowledge that the right to trial by
> jury is a constitutional right but may be waived in certain
> circumstances. To the extent permitted by law, you and
> ...


From Open Sky Visa (Google search for Visa agreement) - 



> 18. Waiver of Right to Trial by Jury. YOU AND WE ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE RIGHT TO TRIAL BY JURY IS A
> CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT BUT MAY BE WAIVED IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES. TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED
> BY LAW, YOU AND WE KNOWINGLY AND VOLUNTARILY WAIVE ANY RIGHT TO TRIAL BY JURY IN THE EVENT
> OF LITIGATION ARISING OUT OF OR RELATED TO THIS AGREEMENT. THIS JURY TRIAL WAIVER SHALL NOT
> ...


They do seem very similar.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

dmorrow said:


> Just wonder about motives for their advice.


They are protecting us. That is their motive. Lawyers tell me that all the time.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

dunhamjr said:


> you pulled this off of the visa card agreement.
> i am fairly certain this is standard practice with any cc issuance, and in no way limits you from purchasing an a case against vw for the emissions/mileage/power/value issues.


I thought the same.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

dunhamjr said:


> i just replied to this post, and i could be mistaken. but that looks like waiving jury trial in lieu of arbitration ONLY in regards to the CC issuance agreement, not the VW emissions issue.
> that agreement is very similar, if not verbatim to what i have seen for every CC i have been issued.


This is why I shouldn't do shotgun replies in the midst of a packed work day :facepalm:

That's a different animal, but I'm still not convinced about this until I can read every bit of the fine print.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> I'm betting that in order to get the gift card from VW, you have to fill out a form. In that form will be a legally binding agreement that you will not sue them for any reason, either directly or by joining a class-action lawsuit.


Your bet lost.



shawshank redemption said:


> Go join a class action suit and wait a couple years for a $55 settlement.


Anything's possible. But VW's exposure to its recent TDI consumers appears to be far greater than $55 per owner.

I'm going to sign up and put $888 of the $1000 into 4 years of a VW Care Plus Plan on my '15 TDI Golf.


----------



## cloud09 (Jan 14, 2011)

Silly_me said:


> They are protecting us. That is their motive. Lawyers tell me that all the time.


 Where is the sarcasm smiley ?


Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk


----------



## najel (Apr 10, 2008)

chris86vw said:


> It is in the card holder policy. I guess at this point it is unclear if it means you waive the right specifically to anything related to the card only or in general against VW, I'm leaning towards the former.
> 
> But forwarded it to the GF to see what she thinks.


Ah, OK, that explains it. This does not apply to VW at all then, the beginning of the cardholder agreement states:


```
"We," "us," and "our" mean MetaBank, our successors, affiliates or assignees.
```
Unless they consider VW their affiliate...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

BeBop! said:


> GF must be a lawyer ... let us know what she thinks.


She is yes, didn't get a chance to read it last night but I described where it was and as others here seem to think she felt it applied to the CC agreement only and not anything emissions related.


----------



## grounded87 (Nov 5, 2002)

So has anybody priced tires through VW? 

I'm inclined to put the $500 "dealer only" card towards a set of new snow tires for my 16" steelies if they don't price too ludicrously. That or an OE roof rack. :beer:

I'll take the "use anywhere" card and go buy the timing belt kit off idparts.com or similar since I'm already at 110K and it'll be due in the next few months. 

Planned to drive this car into the ground anyways, so VW just took care of the next round of maintenance, rubber, and oil changes for me. :beer:

EDIT: Nevermind, they have it online. Not too shabby: http://www.vwtirestore.com


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

grounded87 said:


> So has anybody priced tires through VW?
> 
> I'm inclined to put the $500 "dealer only" card towards a set of new snow tires for my 16" steelies if they don't price too ludicrously. That or an OE roof rack. :beer:
> 
> ...


Any time you get tires through the dealer you are getting hosed in my experience, at least compared to dedicated tire places.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

grounded87 said:


> So has anybody priced tires through VW?


I may have changed but in the past the dealers have a few options.

One is there is some sort of manufacture/dealer direct type setup with i think tire rack or another larger tire distributor where they get slightly better than normal wholesale on sizes and models of tires that came OE on the vehicles. These they can usually price pretty well.

Two is they just have a regular tire rack wholesale account for some random odd stuff pricing usually meh compared to you buying them yourself, likely where they will source a snow tire. Considering it is "free" money even if it is slightly worse than getting them through my own TR wholesale account I'll probably still just burn up the VW cash on tires through a dealer.

Third is a local wholesaler who can get common stuff dropped off in an hours or so notice, prices vary wildly.


Basically know what you want and go in knowing a price, don't forget that if you drop off tires you brought mounting and balancing prices may be different or there may be a surcharge for supplying your own. A lot of times it works out to within a few bucks.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

UncleJB said:


> Any time you get tires through the dealer you are getting hosed in my experience, at least compared to dedicated tire places.


On the website grounded87 posted, VW offers a price match guarantee. Including to warehouse club stores within 25 miles of the dealership. But not to online purchases.


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

spockcat said:


> On the website grounded87 posted, VW offers a price match guarantee. Including to warehouse club stores within 25 miles of the dealership. But not to online purchases.


He added that after I posted - I didn't know they price matched. I was in the service area at my dealership two weeks ago and I heard a woman get a price for 4 16" snows and it was $680 installed. I thought that was high based on what I have paid at tire stores for good 16" snows. I am sure the dealership counts on "lay down" customers to some extent when it comes to tires. "The price will be XXX" "Okay just do it". I guess if you are aware of pricing before going in you would be ok.


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

dmorrow said:


> If you are being billed for your lawyers time how much time can you (or anyone) afford to pay them before coming out ahead is unlikely to happen? I guess you can hope for "X" plus lawyer fees but I can't see then amount of time involved and hassle being far enough above a class action settlement to make sense.
> 
> Also, the only way your lawyer gets anything out of this is for you to not go class action or settle? Just wonder about motives for their advice.


The attorney recovered their own costs. I got everything I wanted, I didn't pay them a cent, it was better than small claims court. I didn't even have to show up, and I got more than class action suit would've given me by opting out and letting a local lawyer nail them for torts.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Numbersix said:


> This is why I shouldn't do shotgun replies in the midst of a packed work day :facepalm:
> 
> That's a different animal, but I'm still not convinced about this until I can read every bit of the fine print.


meh, it happens. i did basically the same thing yesterday when i misread a post.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

grounded87 said:


> So has anybody priced tires through VW?
> 
> I'm inclined to put the $500 "dealer only" card towards a set of new snow tires for my 16" steelies if they don't price too ludicrously. That or an OE roof rack. :beer:
> 
> ...


i checked the prices, they seemed quite high. also brand and size selection was a bit limited... obviously trying to stay with OEM sizes, etc. can't blame them for that.
there have been a few people posting that dealers will price match local prices, i will be looking into that to see if i can make that work for me.

unfortunately i dont need summer or snows for a VW... i need a set of summers for my sienna. so will need to find a way to get the size i want/need.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

UncleJB said:


> He added that after I posted - I didn't know they price matched. I was in the service area at my dealership two weeks ago and I heard a woman get a price for 4 16" snows and it was $680 installed. I thought that was high based on what I have paid at tire stores for good 16" snows. I am sure the dealership counts on "lay down" customers to some extent when it comes to tires. "The price will be XXX" "Okay just do it". I guess if you are aware of pricing before going in you would be ok.


i dont think $680 sounds all that terrible really.
i just had a set of snows installed. pull/dispose old tires. mount/balance 4 new. just the tire swap work was $151 after tax... so that means it was around $530 included for the snow tires... thats not terrible. especially with dealer prices. 

yeah?


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Well at least my dealership has a sense of humor about the whole ordeal..



> *Hi gang, it's Rusty again, on behalf of the folks at Leith VW in Cary.*
> 
> There was a day, years ago, when my younger daughter was going to school with a project she had been working on for days, and things began to go wrong. She was in first grade so her project was mostly cardboard, construction paper, and toilet paper rolls, but of course it was beautiful. As she and my wife were getting ready, time slipped away and they began to run late, then they couldn't find the keys to the car, the umbrella was broken, the project got wet and splotchy, and at some point during the drama, my wife shouted "Darn It!"
> 
> ...


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Mazda 3s said:


> Well at least my dealership has a sense of humor about the whole ordeal..


The old... 'we're gonna be busy.... come in now and get your service' trick...


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

UncleJB said:


> He added that after I posted - I didn't know they price matched. I was in the service area at my dealership two weeks ago and I heard a woman get a price for 4 16" snows and it was $680 installed. I thought that was high based on what I have paid at tire stores for good 16" snows. I am sure the dealership counts on "lay down" customers to some extent when it comes to tires. "The price will be XXX" "Okay just do it". I guess if you are aware of pricing before going in you would be ok.


$150 per tire and $20 per mount/balance. Not bad at all....


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

(TDI owner looking at their resale value currently)

DARN IT!


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

So, if I purchased a used TDI model after the recall thing was announced do I qualify as a "current TDI owner" to receive the $1000 gift from VW?


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

Regarding the gift cards, what if a used TDI is sitting on a dealer lot? Does the dealer get the $1000 gift cards?

And if it's a VW Dealer can they collect enough gift cards to buy more used TDI's for their used car lot, then get more gift cards. Then Rinse and Repeat?


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Uberhare said:


> So, if I purchased a used TDI model after the recall thing was announced do I qualify as a "current TDI owner" to receive the $1000 gift from VW?


Yes - so long as it was registered prior to yesterday.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

randy said:


> Regarding the gift cards, what if a used TDI is sitting on a dealer lot? Does the dealer get the $1000 gift cards?


No must be individual and registered.

Dealer inventory, fleet vehicles, and special employee lease deals are exempt.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

E CODE said:


> Yes - so long as it was registered prior to yesterday.


Registered with who? VW? State DOL?


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Uberhare said:


> Registered with who? VW? State DOL?


unless i misread the offer was to owners of affected vehicles that owned the vehicle as if the goodwill offer release date... aka 11/8/15.
so as long as you are/were the register owner that date you will be fine.

edit:
here it is.
https://www.vwdieselinfo.com/goodwill_package/

*Restrictions apply. Affected customers eligible for the Goodwill Package are not required to waive their rights or release their claims against Volkswagen Group of America in order to receive the Package. *Goodwill Package available only to registered owners or lessees as of November 8, 2015 of affected 2.0L TDI vehicles who can provide VIN and other requested verification data.* Limit one per affected vehicle as confirmed by unique VIN; cards may not be transferred or sold. Affected customers must register for the Goodwill Package by April 30, 2016 and comply with all Program Rules, including activating at participating dealership within one year of issuance. Volkswagen Prepaid Visa Loyalty Cards are issued by MetaBank®, Member FDIC, pursuant to a license from Visa U.S.A. Inc. This card can be used anywhere Visa debit cards are accepted. Dealership card can only be used at participating Volkswagen of America dealerships. Both cards expire one year after date of issuance upon registration for the Goodwill Package. Void where prohibited and outside U.S. and Puerto Rico. See vwdieselinfo.com or call 1-800-822-8987 for important eligibility, registration, activation, and other Program Rules.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> unless i misread the offer was to owners of affected vehicles that owned the vehicle as if the goodwill offer release date... aka 11/8/15.
> so as long as you are/were the register owner that date you will be fine.


AND you still have your car when the cards show up.


So someone like myself who was currently selling one of their affected vehicles (prior to the scandal) and has a diminished value now also needs to keep it for another month in order to even collect this.. oh well my current potential buyer wasn't in a rush.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

dunhamjr said:


> unless i misread the offer was to owners of affected vehicles that owned the vehicle as if the goodwill offer release date... aka 11/8/15.
> so as long as you are/were the register owner that date you will be fine.
> 
> edit:
> ...


Nice!! I got my DOL registration last week so I'm good to go.

I love it. Bought a nice used TDI for way under book value and now VW is throwing money my way as a way to say "sorry". Keep it coming VW!!


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

Uberhare said:


> Nice!! I got my DOL registration last week so I'm good to go.
> 
> I love it. Bought a nice used TDI for way under book value and now VW is throwing money my way as a way to say "sorry". Keep it coming VW!!


Like falling in a pile of sh!t and coming out smelling like a rose!:laugh:


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

I just read this article. 

http://money.cnn.com/2015/11/10/autos/volkswagen-owners-buyback/index.html



> Volkswagen said Monday that it will fork over $500 gift cards to owners of VW diesel cars hit by its emissions cheating scandal, as well as a $500 credit that can be used at VW dealerships.
> 
> But *dozens* of unhappy Volkswagen owners say that the automaker's so-called "goodwill program" isn't nearly enough. They want the company to take the cars off their hands.
> 
> ...


The bold part has my eyes rolling. That's YOUR fault you still owe lots of money on the car. It has nothing to do with the recall or being defrauded. Some people are twisting this into something it is not. Maybe pay cash money for the car and you won't have this type of reaction?


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

thegoose said:


> Like falling in a pile of sh!t and coming out smelling like a rose!:laugh:


It was pre-planned. As soon as I heard this recall news I thought to myself now is a good time to buy a TDI. People will dump them on the used market which makes it great for people like me who want a high MPG vehicle for not much cost. Assuming of course, that emissions testing is not a issue. Resale value? Eh, who cares. I'm driving this b***h into the ground. I just hope VW keeps sending me free money and gifts along with the recall fix.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

Uberhare said:


> It was pre-planned. As soon as I heard this recall news I thought to myself now is a good time to buy a TDI. People will dump them on the used market which makes it great for people like me who want a high MPG vehicle for not much cost. Assuming of course, that emissions testing is not a issue. Resale value? Eh, who cares. I'm driving this b***h into the ground. I just hope VW keeps sending me free money and gifts along with the recall fix.


Oh... I know, I congratulated you for "rolling the dice" a few dozen pages ago. I just love the saying. :laugh:


----------



## makasay (Apr 19, 2013)

Uberhare said:


> I just read this article.
> 
> http://money.cnn.com/2015/11/10/autos/volkswagen-owners-buyback/index.html
> 
> ...


Is it his fault? The value of his car dropped to the point where he owes more than the vehicle is worth. That's a result of the scandal.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

makasay said:


> The value of his car dropped to the point where he owes more than the vehicle is worth. That's a result of the scandal.


Not necessarily.

Oftentimes, when people put small down payments on a car, they wind up owing more on the loan than the car is worth the moment they drive it off the lot.

Imagine a person who puts $1,000 towards a new car sold for $25,000. When the new owner drives it off the lot, it's unlikely to still be worth the $24,000 he still owes.

No TDI owner could have reasonably anticipated this scandal, a scandal that has hurt resale values. I sure didn't.

But VW knew. And the law should hold them account for the depreciation their deception caused.

VW breached the covenant of good faith and fair dealing that applies to every sale. They'll be held to account.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

chris86vw said:


> AND you still have your car when the cards show up.
> 
> 
> So someone like myself who was currently selling one of their affected vehicles (prior to the scandal) and has a diminished value now also needs to keep it for another month in order to even collect this.. oh well my current potential buyer wasn't in a rush.


Yeah, the conditions of the "Goodwill" Package are really interesting. Why doesn't it apply to those who owned the car when the **** storm started late September and who sold their car in the meantime? Or to those who will sell before the cards arrive? The activation of the cards require that you still own the car at activation. Why trying to get people stuck with a car they do not want anymore?


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

Posting this because Diesel.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Tapped out of this thread a few pages ago - has caj made any more 9/11 references?


----------



## spathotan (Jun 14, 2013)

Uberhare said:


> I just read this article.
> 
> http://money.cnn.com/2015/11/10/autos/volkswagen-owners-buyback/index.html
> 
> ...


I read that story earlier, sensationalism. And anybody that says they bought a TDI for the clean emissions is full of sh1t. If it ment that much youd be driving a Prius or electric.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

spathotan said:


> I read that story earlier, sensationalism. And anybody that says they bought a TDI for the clean emissions is full of sh1t. If it ment that much youd be driving a Prius or electric.


Not necessarily. Looking at the parking lot of my local green grocery store, many TDIs and many Priuses. People really consider or considered both green here.


----------



## spathotan (Jun 14, 2013)

Jack-DE said:


> Not necessarily. Looking at the parking lot of my local green grocery store, many TDIs and many Priuses. People really consider or considered both green here.


What I ment is the MPGs have been the big draw of the TDIs, not emissions. VW didnt even start marketing them as "clean" until a few years ago right?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

makasay said:


> Is it his fault? The value of his car dropped to the point where he owes more than the vehicle is worth. That's a result of the scandal.


I know it, who has ever bought a new car and mere minutes later owed more than it was worth. 



Jack-DE said:


> People really consider or considered both green here.


Well, technically, it pollutes less to green house gasses. Asthmatics and elderly smokers can EAD, however.


----------



## KarateMonkey (Jan 14, 2006)

Mazda 3s said:


> Well at least my dealership has a sense of humor about the whole ordeal..


I never got that email. ;-P


Sent from a telecommunication device with a touch screen keyboard.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

spathotan said:


> What I ment is the MPGs have been the big draw of the TDIs, not emissions. VW didnt even start marketing them as "clean" until a few years ago right?


Prior to VW selling them as "Clean Diesel" they didn't even have a real emissions system. The Pre-2007 standards for diesel engines were so high as to be laughable. Make no mistake though, they sold the Clean Diesel program HARD. I forgot how hard until reading one of the press releases by the FTC over their advertising claims. Maybe the buyers cared mostly about MPG, but the ads were all about clean emissions including a wickedly expensive Superbowl ad about nothing _except_ their supposed environmental cred.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I rolled the dice and bought a TDI SportWagen Friday night. I was able to sell my Audi through the dealer so I saved about $8k on taxes (roughly $500 in Pa). I got a White one with 39k, 6 speed manual, pano, tan leather and 17's with tires that have 9k on them for $13,500. The payment is $15 more than my Audi was and the insurance is $20 less. Also has 83,000 less miles. 

I'm happy as hell so far. Let's hope it stays that way. 

I registered for my gift cards as well!


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

spathotan said:


> I read that story earlier, sensationalism. And anybody that says they bought a TDI for the clean emissions is full of sh1t. If it ment that much youd be driving a Prius or electric.


I disagree. Environmental concern isn't binary, as you suggest. For instance, I can care about both the environment AND handling at the same time. I can weigh them equally, or I can weight them 75% environmental concern and 25% handling, or any other combination. What if *gasp* I cared about the environment, handling, AND having a manual transmission all at the same time? THREE variables!?! Would the world end? No.

I care about the environment, and that concern guides some of my decisions. I also LOATHE automatic transmissions, and having a manual is a non-negotiable item for me. So that right there eliminates pretty much every hybrid/EV out there, leaving only VW diesels that offer manual transmission and are also good for the environment. Oh wait, that last one was a lie.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

R Salesman said:


> Environmental concern isn't binary


But the internet is.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW halts Passat diesel output in Chattanooga
*


> A re-engineered 2016 Passat is loaded onto a carrier for shipping at VW's Tennessee assembly plant last week.
> 
> *WASHINGTON *-- Volkswagen of America has halted production of diesel-powered 2016 Passat midsize sedans at its plant in Chattanooga, a VW spokesman said today.
> 
> ...


----------



## VWRedux (Jun 3, 2009)

*VW's PITIFUL OFFER!*

So has anyone accurately figured out the true LOSS in *resale value* to a... let's say, a MkVII Golf TDi owner, or Passat TDi owner etc. would face if they tried to sell or trade-in their car? IMO, that's fair and should be VAG's offer, not this slap-in-the-face insult. VAG should make good on that loss percentage, nothing less!


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

VWRedux said:


> So has anyone accurately figured out the true LOSS in *resale value* to a... let's say, a MkVII Golf TDi owner, or Passat TDi owner etc. would face if they tried to sell or trade-in their car? IMO, that's fair and should be VAG's offer, not this slap-in-the-face insult. VAG should make good on that loss percentage, nothing less!


This is my actual experience...


2012 Jetta sportwagen tdi manual with ~80k miles silver on black no sunroof or nav.

July 27th while shopping for my 2015 Golf sportwagen TDI I was offered 9500 condition at that time was:
bald tires
hadn't washed in 3 months
rear bumper cracked/scratched from a garbage can blowing into it in a wind storm
exhaust modifications we won't discuss here that would cost about 2k to return to stock (they refused to quote me a price with me putting it stock. :screwy
80k service due

Bought the new GSW later that week had some other stuff going on and took me longer than planned to get JSW cleaned up and made appointment at carmax

Sept 28th I was offered* 9k*:
new tires
full detail in and out the car looked/looks better than any car they had on the lot (heck it looks better than the 2015..)
bumper repaired
stock exhaust installed
service done.


Not that same location but another carmax within 100 miles or so had a 2012 JSW TDI DSG with roof and nav listed for 18,500 with 87k miles on it. I went in based on this and other vehicles for sale thinking I"d be offered about 12-13k prior to the scandal. Based on my personal experience I feel it dropped about 20-25% in that window of time.



Still not even mad as the people here crying who aren't even trying to sell a TDI right now. A little annoyed but not mad.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

VWRedux said:


> So has anyone accurately figured out the true LOSS in *resale value* to a... let's say, a MkVII Golf TDi owner, or Passat TDi owner etc. would face if they tried to sell or trade-in their car? IMO, that's fair and should be VAG's offer, not this slap-in-the-face insult. VAG should make good on that loss percentage, nothing less!


I think a lot of publications on that topic were based off of say used VW TDI searches/sales being down X percent, say 30% since the scandal and people probably attribute that number to the loss in resale.

You'd have to take the average market value in say August of a used TDI and compare it to the used market value of a similar TDI as of today. I would say that market value probably has dropped $2-4k. Are the cars harder to sell privately? Definitely. Are they worthless? Absolutely not. The people trying to unload them now just because of the scandal, before the real dust has settled, I have no sympathy for if they are receiving a lot less. I do have sympathy for people that were trying to sell them say early september and are now getting hosed.


@Chris, why do you feel it dropped 20-25%? Genuine question since based on the price you received in July compared to the price in September only represents a 5% drop and that was after the scandal. Although my thought of $2-4k is probably pretty close to a 20-25% drop depending on the year/car :laugh:


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Uberhare said:


> The bold part has my eyes rolling. That's YOUR fault you still owe lots of money on the car. It has nothing to do with the recall or being defrauded. Some people are twisting this into something it is not. Maybe pay cash money for the car and you won't have this type of reaction?


To be fair the typical logic on this forum about the diesels is they are well worth the higher cost because the buyer makes it up on the back end when it comes time to sell or trade in.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

noatonement said:


> I think a lot of publications on that topic were based off of say used VW TDI searches/sales being down X percent, say 30% since the scandal and people probably attribute that number to the loss in resale.
> 
> You'd have to take the average market value in say August of a used TDI and compare it to the used market value of a similar TDI as of today. I would say that market value probably has dropped $2-4k. Are the cars harder to sell privately? Definitely. Are they worthless? Absolutely not. The people trying to unload them now just because of the scandal, before the real dust has settled, I have no sympathy for if they are receiving a lot less. I do have sympathy for people that were trying to sell them say early september and are now getting hosed.


x2

and i'd like to add that most of the people who are doing so because of the scandal likely have absolutely no idea what the scandal even entails. all they probably know is "VW pollutes more" and nothing else.


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

VWRedux said:


> So has anyone accurately figured out the true LOSS in *resale value* to a... let's say, a MkVII Golf TDi owner, or Passat TDi owner etc. would face if they tried to sell or trade-in their car? IMO, that's fair and should be VAG's offer, not this slap-in-the-face insult. VAG should make good on that loss percentage, nothing less!


Need to wait on a couple of months of auction prices at the biggies


----------



## Chmeeee (Jun 24, 2002)

VWRedux said:


> So has anyone accurately figured out the true LOSS in *resale value* to a... let's say, a MkVII Golf TDi owner, or Passat TDi owner etc. would face if they tried to sell or trade-in their car? IMO, that's fair and should be VAG's offer, not this slap-in-the-face insult. VAG should make good on that loss percentage, nothing less!


That cannot be truly evaluated until they release the fix, buyers understand the impacts, and the dust settles. Right now it might be (numbers made up) 20% because of the uncertainty. If the fix comes out and it's a software update that doesn't impact economy or driveability, than that number might correct to a 5% loss. If the fix comes out and it kills power and drops economy to 25 mpg, then it might become 40%.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

noatonement said:


> @Chris, why do you feel it dropped 20-25%? Genuine question since based on the price you received in July compared to the price in September only represents a 5% drop and that was after the scandal. Although my thought of $2-4k is probably pretty close to a 20-25% drop depending on the year/car :laugh:


Condition of the vehicle changed significantly for the better between July and Sept. The quote in july was based on the car needing ~3k (to them not me) worth of labor and parts before it even got cleaned up and attempted to be sold. If the car looked like it did today that week in July I suspect the offer would have been in the 11,500 range at the dealer that day. Had they actually had the car I wanted in stock and didn't need to trade probably 12.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

VWRedux said:


> So has anyone accurately figured out the true LOSS in *resale value* to a... let's say, a MkVII Golf TDi owner, or Passat TDi owner etc. would face if they tried to sell or trade-in their car? IMO, that's fair and should be VAG's offer, not this slap-in-the-face insult. VAG should make good on that loss percentage, nothing less!


a number of news outlets have articles quoting KBB that tdi resale value is down 13% post announcement.
how that is playing out in the actual market will vary.

people so far has run into issues not being able to trade in at all.
not being offered anywhere near pre-announcement values.

also buyers are finding cars for sometimes near $5k less than they would be expected to sell for.


edit:
here is one.
http://www.seattlepi.com/business/article/Resale-values-falling-for-Volkswagen-diesels-6554292.php


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

Chmeeee said:


> That cannot be truly evaluated until they release the fix, buyers understand the impacts, and the dust settles.


This^

At this point anyone making knee jerk reactions and selling will be at the mercy of dealers taking advantage of the situation. If a fix cannot be made, VW will likely have to buy back the cars anyway, which makes it a win-win for the dealer.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

Uberhare said:


> The bold part has my eyes rolling. That's YOUR fault you still owe lots of money on the car. It has nothing to do with the recall or being defrauded. Some people are twisting this into something it is not. Maybe pay cash money for the car and you won't have this type of reaction?


Uhhh...no? All of this is just no.


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

My stepdad admitted to me the other day that he had talked to the local Audi dealer about possibly trading in his '14 Passat TDI SEL. He was informed that they are not taking any TDI cars in trade until some sort of resolution has been reached by VW. 

I am kind of glad because I have told him from the beginning to wait it out. He likes the car, but is unhappy with the situation as he just bought this car within the last year with expectations of mileage and resale value.


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

Surf Green said:


> But the internet is.


LOL, well played.


----------



## iLucifer (Feb 13, 2003)

IMO the people who own VW diesel will not get hurt financially by the vw diesel scandal, they might even benefits. lol VW is throwing money at them and added to that the potential of big payout through lawsuit and its a big winner for diesel owner affected by the VW fraud . Those who will get hurt by it in the real world will be your average VW gasoline owner. Huge discount on most VW vehicle will kill resale value, those who bought their car 2 years ago and want to sell or need to get rid of their vehicle will get hose..


----------



## cloud09 (Jan 14, 2011)

iLucifer said:


> IMO the people who own VW diesel will not get hurt financially by the vw diesel scandal, they might even benefits. lol VW is throwing money at them and added to that the potential of big payout through lawsuit and its a big winner for diesel owner affected by the VW fraud . Those who will get hurt by it in the real world will be your average VW gasoline owner. Huge discount on most VW vehicle will kill resale value, those who bought their car 2 years ago and want to sell or need to get rid of their vehicle will get hose..


Those who are feeling the worst pain are the stock holders! Those will be the biggest law suits.

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

iLucifer said:


> IMO the people who own VW diesel will not get hurt financially by the vw diesel scandal, they might even benefits. lol VW is throwing money at them and added to that the potential of big payout through lawsuit and its a big winner for diesel owner affected by the VW fraud . Those who will get hurt by it in the real world will be your average VW gasoline owner. Huge discount on most VW vehicle will kill resale value, those who bought their car 2 years ago and want to sell or need to get rid of their vehicle will get hose..


The only people who will really benefit from a class action lawsuit are the lawyers.

The money being thrown at customers isn't all useful if owners keep the cars instead of trading in for another Volkswagen.


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

.yuk. said:


> I ended up purchasing a TDI.
> 
> So yea, I totally signed up for this!


If you just bought one, as in after NOV 8th, you won't get it. You have to have
owned it prior. They did that so you can't just go buy one after the fact and
THEN cry foul, you knew before you bought it, so...


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

2.0T_Convert said:


> The only people who will really benefit from a class action lawsuit are the lawyers.


It's true that the lawyers who champion huge class-action lawsuits typically each receive far more than any individual members of their classes do.

But members of the class can recover a lot of money, thousands even, on claims that none of them could reasonably pursue themselves.

* You're not going to sue the company that made your flat-screen TV for fixing prices. But a class did, and got a $1.1 billion settlement.

* You're not going to sue your local electric company for polluting your area's groundwater. But a class did, and got over $250,000 per class member.

The alternative to class-action lawsuits is no lawsuits, and wrongdoers getting away scot-free. Class-action lawsuits make good economic sense relative to the alternative, even if lawyers get a good chuck of the recovery.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

VW labor boss: Maybe it was 100 employees, but it's still no big deal.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-la...scandal-could-involve-172048330--finance.html



> BERLIN (Reuters) - Volkswagen <VOWG_p.DE> works council chief Bernd Osterloh does not know whether diesel emission manipulations committed by the company involved 10, 50 or even 100 people, he told German news agency DPA in an interview published on Friday.
> 
> "No one can tell that today," Osterloh said in a joint interview with VW brand chief executive Herbert Diess, adding there were structures within the company that are "problematic".
> 
> ...


I had actually forgotten that VW is completely unionized in Germany. Now I wonder if the union bosses will be pissed if executive leadership blames only the union labor and claims they had nothing to do with it. It could drive a major wedge between management and labor if the union boots on the ground are the ones that all get axed for this while the executives get retention bonuses.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

AZGolf said:


> Now I wonder if the union bosses will be pissed if executive leadership blames only the union labor and claims they had nothing to do with it.


Union labor here and union labor there are two different things. The "union" over there is the Betriebsrat, and it covers pretty much every worker in the company up to middle management. So the engineering staff is included there.

The whole reason they can't retaliate against anyone who comes forward is that the Betriebsrat would sink the company faster than the Lusitania if they dad.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/14/vw-21-billion-financing-emissions-scandal/



> Volkswagen's emissions scandal won't be a cheap or quick problem to fix. In addition to having to repair millions vehicles, the automaker will likely face hefty government fines and the possible repercussions of lawsuits. To make sure there's enough money in the account to pay for all of that, VW will reportedly apply for the equivalent of $21.5 billion in short-term loans, according to two anonymous insiders in an Automotive News report citing Bloomberg.
> 
> VW will meet with around a dozen banks as soon as Nov. 16 to line up the money before the end of the year. The cash won't be necessary immediately but will be a buffer for expected upcoming costs, the insiders claim. "It is perfectly normal that we are in a constructive ongoing dialog," the automaker said in a statement, according to Automotive News. The company had over $30 billion in net liquidity from its automotive division as of its third quarter financial announcement.
> 
> VW already racked up significant costs from this scandal. The company set aside $7.3 billion to deal with the diesel emissions cheating, but group CEO Matthias Müller admitted that amount was just a start. The automaker also estimated the price of its carbon dioxide problem at $2.2 billion. There was a recent $13 million fine in Brazil too. One estimate places the total charge for this wrongdoing anywhere between $24.5 billion in the best case and $87 billion at the absolute worst.


For reference, I believe Ford got loans totaling ~$26B to restructure itself ahead of the recession (i.e. This is a hellavuhlot of cash-ola to fix a problem.).


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

It is in the best interest of Germany--and the EU--to ensure VW remains viable. But it will be interesting to see how they help the embattled company weather this political, reputational, and financial disaster of its own making while simultaneously holding VW accountable. Also how VW can manage to overcome their reputational damage (now potentially spreading to Audi and Porsche) and return to profitability to pay down the massive debt they will likely incur (forward-looking statement here  ).

Side note: I took my GTI in for service yesterday, and the sales floor was empty. Not a single prospective customer. At 2pm on a Saturday at a dealer in central Seattle (which is Jetta Sportwagen TDI central).


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Got my paper in the mail from VW about the goodwill package this
past Saturday, but I already signed up.


----------



## Iroczgirl (Feb 17, 2007)

Numbersix said:


> Side note: I took my GTI in for service yesterday, and the sales floor was empty. Not a single prospective customer. At 2pm on a Saturday at a dealer in central Seattle (which is Jetta Sportwagen TDI central).


That's just the PNW for you though. When the TDi was considered 'eco', everyone was buying them, now nobody will. It seems that people only think in extremes around here.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

Numbersix said:


> It is in the best interest of Germany--and the EU--to ensure VW remains viable. But it will be interesting to see how they help the embattled company weather this political, reputational, and financial disaster of its own making while simultaneously holding VW accountable. Also how VW can manage to overcome their reputational damage (now potentially spreading to Audi and Porsche) and return to profitability to pay down the massive debt they will likely incur (forward-looking statement here  ).
> 
> Side note: I took my GTI in for service yesterday, and the sales floor was empty. Not a single prospective customer. At 2pm on a Saturday at a dealer in central Seattle (which is Jetta Sportwagen TDI central).


Oh without a doubt they will survive... and company will get a lot more internal check systems... and VPs of Compliance roles created... and consumers will forget and buy again... and all will be alright. 

What probably won't be alright is the culture of pressure that drove otherwise ethical people to choose a regrettable way out for fear of career/job. That will likely carry on as it does seemingly everywhere else.


----------



## gsprobe (Jan 29, 2006)

Iroczgirl said:


> That's just the PNW for you though. When the TDi was considered 'eco', everyone was buying them, now nobody will. It seems that people only think in extremes around here.


That is typical out there. VW will really have a tough time with the Oregon/Washington/Cali crowd. Last to forgive, follow the herd... 

I have friends in Alaska who entertain me with tales of PNWesterners who trek up to AK for the protest of the month.

I live outside Charlotte (I consider it a smart & progressive city) and the VW dealers are basically doing business as usual. The diesel owners here seem to "get it" without all the smug outrage.



Also- I am still asking what damages are being suffered by the owners of the cars? {we ALL are suffering from the addl pollution- but the EPA fine is the penalty...} Other than some very temporary depreciation that will actually become even higher APPRECIATION if you just wait? Is that it?


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

When scandals happen like this the best thing that could happen to said scandal plagued organization (or person) is another sensational event. Unfortunately said event was Friday 13th in Paris.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

gsprobe said:


> Also- I am still asking what damages are being suffered by the owners of the cars? {we ALL are suffering from the addl pollution- but the EPA fine is the penalty...} Other than some very temporary depreciation that will actually become even higher APPRECIATION if you just wait? Is that it?


Potentially reduced longevity of pricey emission components once they are called to work all the time.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

uncleho said:


> When scandals happen like this the best thing that could happen to said scandal plagued organization (or person) is another sensational event. Unfortunately said event was Friday 13th in Paris.


Indeed. It really puts things in perspective.


----------



## firstorbit84 (Feb 25, 2006)

Are there any longer TCL threads than this one?


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

firstorbit84 said:


> Are there any longer TCL threads than this one?


The "DIW" threads, but this is doing it wrong too, so?


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> The "DIW" threads, but this is doing it wrong too, so?


:laugh:


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

gsprobe said:


> Also- I am still asking what damages are being suffered by the owners of the cars? {we ALL are suffering from the addl pollution- but the EPA fine is the penalty...} Other than some very temporary depreciation that will actually become even higher APPRECIATION if you just wait? Is that it?


We don't know what the actual damages are yet, including whether or not the loss in value is temporary. Both sides of the "this is a big deal! / this isn't a big deal!" argument are based on complete conjecture at this point.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

uncleho said:


> For reference, I believe Ford got loans totaling ~$26B to restructure itself ahead of the recession (i.e. This is a hellavuhlot of cash-ola to fix a problem.).


Also as a point of reference, the total loss for the bailout of General Motors was tallied at $11.2 billion. Now granted, VW is looking at taking loans and paying them back, as opposed to the GM cost where the government stake was simply sold at a loss, but still: $11.2 billion is half of the _best case_ estimate for VW at this point.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

gsprobe said:


> I am still asking what damages are being suffered by the owners of the cars? {we ALL are suffering from the addl pollution- but the EPA fine is the penalty...} Other than some very temporary depreciation that will actually become even higher APPRECIATION if you just wait? Is that it?


At this point there is a lot uncertainty, but I highly doubt that there will be a higher appreciation at all, even after the fix is announced and implemented which looks like at least a year of work.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Autoblog said:


> *EU turned to US to make VW diesel scandal public*
> 
> We've got another possible "who-knew-what-when?" detail for VW's ongoing diesel scandal. European Union officials may have known about Volkswagen's so-called cheat software for its diesel vehicles as far back as 2011. But EU leadership apparently didn't act on the information. So some of the EU's officials passed on the tip for the scandal to the US-based International Council on Clean Transportation.
> 
> ...


Hahahahahaha, limp-wristed EU afraid to nail their own. This is just priceless. If it's true, oh, myyyyyyy...... :facepalm:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Oh look, we found even more:

*VW's CO2 deception spreads to more gasoline engines*



> November 13, 2015 22:52 CET
> 
> FRANKFURT -- Volkswagen Group's scandal over false CO2 emissions figures affects more gasoline engines than previously disclosed.
> 
> ...


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

> VW Jettas with four-cylinder 1.2-liter and 1.4-liter TSI engines were also listed.


opcorn:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW labor boss says emissions scandal could involve 100 people*



> BERLIN (Reuters) -- Volkswagen works council chief Bernd Osterloh does not know whether diesel emission manipulations at the automaker involved 10, 50 or even 100 people, he told German news agency DPA in an interview.
> 
> "No one can tell that today," Osterloh said in a joint interview with VW brand chief executive Herbert Diess published on Friday.
> 
> ...


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

spockcat said:


> *VW labor boss says emissions scandal could involve 100 people*


See what I mean???

The witch hunt for the grunts will always ignore those who create an organizational culture (and resultant behavior) that leads people to do regrettable things. You can throw as many grunts under the autobus you wish, but that doesn't change the culture. And we know damn well organizational culture is most influenced by the big cheese(s). 

What sucks is that journalism TODAY has turned to mere regurgitation of info handed out. There seems to be so little in the way of investigative journalism anymore. Too many journalists only seem to care about regurgitating or spinning the most sensational tidbits rather than get to the root. You'd think Lutz's remarks would have initiated more to dig into that line of thinking. :facepalm::thumbdown:


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

uncleho said:


> See what I mean???
> 
> The witch hunt for the grunts will always ignore those who create an organizational culture (and resultant behavior) that leads people to do regrettable things. You can throw as many grunts under the autobus you wish, but that doesn't change the culture. And we know damn well organizational culture is most influenced by the big cheese(s).
> 
> What sucks is that journalism TODAY has turned to mere regurgitation of info handed out. There seems to be so little in the way of investigative journalism anymore. Too many journalists only seem to care about regurgitating or spinning the most sensational tidbits rather than get to the root. You'd think Lutz's remarks would have initiated more to dig into that line of thinking. :facepalm::thumbdown:


To be fair I'm certain modern journalists are worried about showing up to the editors desk with only speculation or making accusations about someone who will never be found guilty in a courtroom.


----------



## Al_Slade (May 22, 2015)

2.0T_Convert said:


> To be fair I'm certain modern journalists are worried about showing up to the editors desk with only speculation or making accusations about someone who will never be found guilty in a courtroom.


Unless you write for Rolling Stone.


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

uncleho said:


> See what I mean???
> 
> The witch hunt for the grunts will always ignore those who create an organizational culture (and resultant behavior) that leads people to do regrettable things. You can throw as many grunts under the autobus you wish, but that doesn't change the culture. And we know damn well organizational culture is most influenced by the big cheese(s).
> 
> What sucks is that journalism TODAY has turned to mere regurgitation of info handed out. There seems to be so little in the way of investigative journalism anymore. Too many journalists only seem to care about regurgitating or spinning the most sensational tidbits rather than get to the root. You'd think Lutz's remarks would have initiated more to dig into that line of thinking. :facepalm::thumbdown:


What would be the point of investigative journalism in these times where only sensationalism sells? The attention span of the general public these days lasts about as long as the blink of an eye - by the time any legitimate information is dug up nobody even remembers what the story was.

Not saying I agree by any means but that appears to be the way of the world.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

spockcat said:


> Oh look, we found even more:
> 
> *VW's CO2 deception spreads to more gasoline engines*


I might be alone in this, but the CO2 stuff doesn't matter to me. Every single automaker in Europe is participating in a standardized test that has been very well proven to be so far removed from reality that you need to add between 18 and 40% to the published figure to arrive at the actual fuel consumption. EU members have been lying about this because they signed the Kyoto protocol. They won't update the standard because that would mean admitting they are WAY wrong for their CO2 agreements under Kyoto. Instead they'd rather lie about CO2 output to make themselves look good.

Furthermore, atmospheric CO2 isn't actually dangerous by itself. We're talking about CO2 from cars, which by definition are used outdoors, so no need to rehash the old arguments about indoor CO2 concentrations. Ground level smog, on the other hand, really does cause health problems and drivers and pedestrians are absolutely breathing in that smog right next to the source of output. It's unfortunate that VW is under the microscope for everything now, but I honestly don't think the CO2 issue will ever amount to anything beyond a tiny regulatory fine. Anything more and the EU needs to admit that they know that ALL automakers are reporting CO2 figures that are way below real-world output because of how outdated and unrealistic the NEDC test is.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

UncleJB said:


> What would be the point of investigative journalism in these times where only sensationalism sells? The attention span of the general public these days lasts about as long as the blink of an eye - by the time any legitimate information is dug up nobody even remembers what the story was.
> 
> Not saying I agree by any means but that appears to be the way of the world.


Totally agree. And that is my ultimate point, too. They feed what the consumers want and in this age of information overload, people just want soundbites/tidbits/etc. Throw in sensationalism for ad revenue and we have a lovely stew of dumb.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> I might be alone in this, but the CO2 stuff doesn't matter to me. Every single automaker in Europe is participating in a standardized test that has been very well proven to be so far removed from reality that you need to add between 18 and 40% to the published figure to arrive at the actual fuel consumption. EU members have been lying about this because they signed the Kyoto protocol. They won't update the standard because that would mean admitting they are WAY wrong for their CO2 agreements under Kyoto. Instead they'd rather lie about CO2 output to make themselves look good.
> 
> Furthermore, atmospheric CO2 isn't actually dangerous by itself. We're talking about CO2 from cars, which by definition are used outdoors, so no need to rehash the old arguments about indoor CO2 concentrations. Ground level smog, on the other hand, really does cause health problems and drivers and pedestrians are absolutely breathing in that smog right next to the source of output. It's unfortunate that VW is under the microscope for everything now, but I honestly don't think the CO2 issue will ever amount to anything beyond a tiny regulatory fine. Anything more and the EU needs to admit that they know that ALL automakers are reporting CO2 figures that are way below real-world output because of how outdated and unrealistic the NEDC test is.


It's funny the games man plays to try to do the right thing in the face of populations that don't or can't really see the dangers/risks (pollution) and thus aren't willing to pay the premium. 

The pressures to balance continuously improving profits and regulatory mandates makes for some regrettable choices. And VW cannot be the only ones. There is no one definition or level of "cheating". It's a big grey area for sure.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

2.0T_Convert said:


> To be fair I'm certain modern journalists are worried about showing up to the editors desk with only speculation or making accusations about someone who will never be found guilty in a courtroom.


Absolutely. I'm not suggesting speculation. That is our realm. I'm saying they need to do what their predecessors did... investigate. find the Deep Throats. I'm sure there are plenty willing to speak. :beer:


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> I might be alone in this, but the CO2 stuff doesn't matter to me.


i think the people most concerned are customers in the EU. 
who choose certain cars based on stated CO2 emissions and are taxed accordingly.

but its good to see them stepping up :thumbup:



article said:


> The CO2 deception is potentially more serious because some European countries -- including Germany, France and the UK -- tie vehicle road taxes to CO2 emissions. VW said it is talking with financial and fiscal authorities in those countries so that all taxes arising in relation to the CO2 issue are charged to the VW Group and not to the customers.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

I have no idea if this is legit or not, but if it is, somebody better start making popcorn by the ton:

http://dailykanban.com/2015/11/dies...-industry-wide-diesel-cheating-sources-claim/



> n one or two weeks’ time, a sudden end will come to the much communicated story that diesel cheating is an isolated matter, only performed by criminals at Volkswagen. Dailykanban received information that in one or two weeks, a number of other automakers will be exposed as diesel cheaters. A Volkswagen problem will turn into an industry-wide systemic problem, *and it could very well be the beginning of the end of diesel-powered cars.*


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Maximum_Download said:


> I have no idea if this is legit or not, but if it is, somebody better start making popcorn by the ton:
> 
> http://dailykanban.com/2015/11/dies...-industry-wide-diesel-cheating-sources-claim/


About the author:



> After a 40 year hiatus, spent doing propaganda in the automotive industry around the world, Bertel returns as a journalist and to the roots of his initials. His wife is a late model Japanese Import.


:laugh::facepalm:


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Maximum_Download said:


> I have no idea if this is legit or not, but if it is, somebody better start making popcorn by the ton:
> 
> http://dailykanban.com/2015/11/dies...-industry-wide-diesel-cheating-sources-claim/


Let's assume this is true. Excellent news. It just means the owners of current diesel cars have a potential future classic vehicle on their hands which will be worth $$$ to those of us who lived through the dark days of Dieselgate. Collector's vehicles indeed. 




See how I did that.....I turned lemons into lemonade. Dookie into diamonds. Crap into cream.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

Another angle to that point, above:

http://www.hybridcars.com/sources-say-industry-wide-diesel-cheating-about-to-be-exposed/



> And, say sources, what Volkswagen did may look relatively tame, as varying degrees of cleverness ranging from crude to enough to make James Bond proud are reportedly being used industry wide.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

Maximum_Download said:


> I have no idea if this is legit or not, but if it is, somebody better start making popcorn by the ton:
> 
> http://dailykanban.com/2015/11/dies...-industry-wide-diesel-cheating-sources-claim/


unlikely.

just compare urea tank sizes across the various diesel car platforms by manufacturer, and you get a pretty good idea of whos emissions system is running outside of just the test requirements


----------



## gsprobe (Jan 29, 2006)

PnZrFsT said:


> We don't know what the actual damages are yet, including whether or not the loss in value is temporary. Both sides of the "this is a big deal! / this isn't a big deal!" argument are based on complete conjecture at this point.


Thank you for responding- and the other poster who did as well. 

So - CONFIRMED - the losses, pain, and suffering are ONLY if this ultimately causes their cars to be worth less money now- and also later on- correct? 

I am asking here: Did owners of the Audi 5000, Ford Pinto, Chevy Truck, Isuzu Trooper, or Ford Explorer ever get checks for their diminished re-sale value? Has any "tarnished reputation" make ever had to pay for depreciation? I do know that sometime around the year 2000, owners of earlier 84 to 87? Mustangs got a $350 check towards a new Ford once for flaking paint. Meanwhile, VW still hasn't owned up to the MK4 flaking clearcoat problem... 




OK- so for fun, look up the story of the 1996 to 1997 Toyota Supra price gouge drop..... Toyota stickered the Supra Turbo at $50,000 {and the base model just shy of $40,000} in 1996 but the very next year dropped the pricing to ~$40,000 for the turbo and $30,000 base. Same exact car- just a pricing adjustment by Toyota. Basically this screwed every 1996 owner out of $10,000 in resale value immediately.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> unlikely.
> 
> just compare urea tank sizes across the various diesel car platforms by manufacturer, and you get a pretty good idea of whos emissions system is running outside of just the test requirements


"My urea tank is bigger than your urea tank."

:laugh:


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

gsprobe said:


> Also- I am still asking what damages are being suffered by the owners of the cars? {we ALL are suffering from the addl pollution- but the EPA fine is the penalty...} Other than some very temporary depreciation that will actually become even higher APPRECIATION if you just wait? Is that it?


We are expecting significant performance decreases when the necessary emissions fixes are applied.

We further expect significant additional maintenance costs, since the pollution control devices will have more work to do and will wear out more quickly.

We also expect that demand for our cars on the resale market will decrease, as potential buyers conclude, justifiably or not, that TDIs suck.

If my TDI suddenly drives like a Yugo











generates repair bills like a Jaguar












and sells like a Pinto











yeah, I've been damaged.

All of these damages have been raised and discussed, repeatedly, thoughout 189 pages of posts in this thread alone. If you don't know these things, it's because you're trying hard not to.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I wonder if after the recall and "fix" of the TDI, will getting the car tuned place it back in the same category as before? Performance/Fuel economy wise. Basically just write off whatever update they come out with. 

You know, since PA does not emission test Diesel cars (yet).


----------



## randy (Feb 18, 1999)

So it looks like US VW dealers are selling cars so well, shortages expected:

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/16/vw-dealers-short-supply/



> Volkswagen has weathered its diesel emissions crisis well so far – at least from a business perspective in the US. Sales in September grew 0.56 percent, and October's numbers showed essentially no change with just with a 0.24-percent gain thanks to help from incentives. The market is so strong that dealers now report they don't have enough vehicles to keep up with the surging demand, according to Automotive News.
> 
> To keep people interested, VW offered current customers a $2,000 loyalty bonus, and some models had incentives as high as $4,200. The tactics worked. The German brand had just 48-day supply of new vehicles at the end of October, Automotive News reported citing TrueCar data. That was the automaker's lowest stock in the last 12 months, and the figure even included diesels with a stop sale.
> 
> ...


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Chilcoot said:


> We are expecting


As good a stand for a lawsuit if there ever was.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

randy said:


> So it looks like US VW dealers are selling cars so well, shortages expected:
> 
> http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/16/vw-dealers-short-supply/


Not unexpected given the $2000 bonus and the fact that it will take many months for VW to reorganize its production mix from diesel/gas to virtually all gas. Gas models will be in shortage for some time to come.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

randy said:


> So it looks like US VW dealers are selling cars so well, shortages expected:
> 
> http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/16/vw-dealers-short-supply/


Just about anything will move when you drop the price a lot. They're not getting the per car margins they want though.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW's fix for rigged 1.6-liter engines waits for German approval*



> FRANKFURT -- Volkswagen Group is a step closer to finding a hardware fix for 1.6-liter diesel engines with software that can cheat official tests measuring harmful NOx emissions.
> 
> VW has delivered an update on its technical solution for about 540,000 VW Group cars in Germany with the affected 1.6-liter engines, a spokesman for the country's Federal Motor Transportation Authority (KBA) said on Tuesday.
> 
> ...


----------



## iadubber (Feb 1, 2005)

.yuk. said:


> I rolled the dice and bought a TDI SportWagen Friday night. I was able to sell my Audi through the dealer so I saved about $8k on taxes (roughly $500 in Pa). I got a White one with 39k, 6 speed manual, pano, tan leather and 17's with tires that have 9k on them for $13,500. The payment is $15 more than my Audi was and the insurance is $20 less. Also has 83,000 less miles.
> 
> I'm happy as hell so far. Let's hope it stays that way.
> 
> I registered for my gift cards as well!


Good luck on the gift cards, but per the rules you are out of luck. 

*Restrictions apply. Affected customers eligible for the Goodwill Package are not required to waive their rights or release their claims against Volkswagen Group of America in order to receive the Package. *Goodwill Package available only to registered owners or lessees as of November 8, 2015* of affected 2.0L TDI vehicles who can provide VIN and other requested verification data.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

And? I bought and registered my car on November 6th through the state of PA at the dealership. Dealer even told me to go online and register for the goodwill package since I qualify. Not sure if you are confused or what.

Not like I waited a week to register it.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Unless I'm an idiot.

"the Affected Vehicle must have been purchased or leased by the current registered owner or lessee prior to November 9, 2015, the date of program initiation);"


----------



## dubdaze68 (Oct 29, 2001)

Hi Yuk!

I thought there was a "Stop Sale" on all TDI's, new and used. Glad you got a deal!


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

dubdaze68 said:


> Hi Yuk!
> 
> I thought there was a "Stop Sale" on all TDI's, new and used. Glad you got a deal!


Yeah I'm glad he got a good deal also, but damn $13,000 for a used, low mileage GSW TDI (sounds like he has the pano roof like mine, so at least an SE or possibly SEL?) I just paid $27,000/ ($31,200 MSRP) for nearly the same car (new) about a week later than he got his :banghead:


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Yea it's an SE I believe. White, 6 speed manual with 39,500 miles, tan leather, Pano roof and 17's. Everything except for Nav I think. $14k after I asked them to fix a dent in the rocker. :thumbup:

And yea Pat, there is a stop sale on them! Can't buy anything new at all.

I drove it to West Virginia to attend the funeral for Cory Burgess (cystic fibrosis patient, really into vw's and long time friend) and it got great mileage!

BTW, this is a JSW not a GSW. :laugh:


----------



## iadubber (Feb 1, 2005)

.yuk. said:


> And? I bought and registered my car on November 6th through the state of PA at the dealership. Dealer even told me to go online and register for the goodwill package since I qualify. Not sure if you are confused or what.
> 
> Not like I waited a week to register it.


My bad, I just seen the date of 11/11 on your post. I too bought my JSW TDI the week before the website dropped so hoping for the best.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

.yuk. said:


> Yea it's an SE I believe. White, 6 speed manual with 39,500 miles, tan leather, Pano roof and 17's. Everything except for Nav I think. $14k after I asked them to fix a dent in the rocker. :thumbup:
> 
> And yea Pat, there is a stop sale on them! Can't buy anything new at all.
> 
> ...


There was no SE/SEL designation for the JSW TDI. You just have a 'TDI' with Sunroof.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

It was in packages. Pano roof came with the 17's and pleather. The next package would have included the nav with pano and wheels. And of course you can get it without pano in DSG and whatnot. 

I spent too many days at the dealership looking at these things. :laugh:


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

.yuk. said:


> It was in packages. Pano roof came with the 17's and pleather. The next package would have included the nav with pano and wheels. And of course you can get it without pano in DSG and whatnot.
> 
> I spent too many days at the dealership looking at these things. :laugh:


Yes.


----------



## iadubber (Feb 1, 2005)

.yuk. said:


> It was in packages. Pano roof came with the 17's and pleather. The next package would have included the nav with pano and wheels. And of course you can get it without pano in DSG and whatnot.
> 
> I spent too many days at the dealership looking at these things. :laugh:


I'm happy with whatever package I got, uniblack 2010 JSW, 6 speed, heated black pleather, pano, portos, CarGo


----------



## VWestlife (Sep 29, 2004)

Can a VW dealer take a new (stop-sale) TDI, drive it around for 500 miles (to pass the minimum threshold of what counts as a "used" car) and then sell it as a used car?

Some Chevy dealers do that so they can sell fleet-only Caprices to consumers.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Every "New" car is being held by the dealers for VW to most likely buy back. You can go buy used TDI's off the used car lots still. Nothing stopping them from selling. The dealers are "urged" not to sell pre-owned and nothing will be CPO.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

gsprobe said:


> Thank you for responding- and the other poster who did as well.
> 
> So - CONFIRMED - the losses, pain, and suffering are ONLY if this ultimately causes their cars to be worth less money now- and also later on- correct?
> 
> ...


None of the scenario's are an accurate comparison. Audi, Ford, Isuzu didn't really KNOW about the issue until after the cars were on sale. Plus these were safety issues. VW KNEW about the emission, said, "we don't care", build the car and hope they didn't get caught.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

FYI.....if you feel you qualify for the $1000 goodwill package you are required to register your info online. Takes about 4 weeks once registered.

Register here: https://www.vwdieselinfo.com/goodwill_package/


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Chilcoot said:


> We are expecting





Silly_me said:


> As good a stand for a lawsuit if there ever was.


Unfair.

No, I don't have performance losses yet. My car hasn't had a performance-degrading software fix yet, but I expect it likely will soon.
No, my emissions control system hasn't yet been fully enabled and worked hard, but I expect likely will be soon.
No, I haven't considered selling the car yet, but I expect I likely will, albeit not soon.
Just because I haven't yet incurred provable damages due to VW's apparent fraud doesn't mean I shouldn't plan for them based on what I know.

Based on what we know now and reasonably suspect, affected TDI owners will have provable damages to claim against VW, damages well-described by many in this very thread.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Chilcoot said:


> Unfair.
> 
> No, I don't have performance losses yet. My car hasn't had a performance-degrading software fix yet, but I expect it likely will soon.





What makes you assume you will lose a single hp? You realize this has little to do with peak power if any at all right? Also your 2015 has more power with more emissions equipment than say a 2012. Not even worth getting into how diesels make power and the fuel conditions at which NOx is an issue are essentially the opposite.

This is one where especially people with the later engines seriously need to just STFU about it makes them look ignorant.



> [*]No, my emissions control system hasn't yet been fully enabled and worked hard, but I expect likely will be soon.


So you want damages for it not being worked hard previously and causing additional pollution? or you think you are entitled to damages because VW is going to make your car what it was supposed to be and this upsets you? This one really doesn't make sense.




> [*]No, I haven't considered selling the car yet, but I expect I likely will, albeit not soon.


I'm actually trying to sell a TDI (one of two, and was before this broke not reacting to it), not bothered as much as you seem to be from your theoretical eventual sale that you currently have no plans for. This one is at least semi valid, but it comes off less so with your other two nonsensical reason.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

randy said:


> So it looks like US VW dealers are selling cars so well, shortages expected:
> 
> http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/16/vw-dealers-short-supply/


I don't understand the point in discounting the sales price of your product to the point that you run out and have shortages going forward.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

chris86vw said:


> What makes you assume you will lose a single hp?


I believe that VW is rational. I believe they decided to slip the software cheat into the emissions control system so that the vehicle could simultaneously perform well and pass emissions tests. If there's another logical reason for VW's cheat, I haven't seen it.



chris86vw said:


> Also your 2015 has more power with more emissions equipment than say a 2012.


I realize that a '15 TDI has different emissions equipment than a '12 TDI, yes. But that's irrelevant to any point I've tried to make. Someone's assessment of a '15 has nothing to do with how VW chose to design its '12s. I'm not a fan of the Ford C-Max, but it's not because some Model Ts had a rough idle.



chris86vw said:


> This is one where especially people with the later engines seriously need to just STFU about it makes them look ignorant.


I don't quite understand this as a sentence written in English. But I think you mean that some people need to "shut the **** up" lest they "look ignorant." Well, at least your readers will know the level of discussion they'll need to accommodate.



chris86vw said:


> So you want damages for it not being worked hard previously and causing additional pollution? or you think you are entitled to damages because VW is going to make your car what it was supposed to be and this upsets you? This one really doesn't make sense.


You misunderstand.

Among the sorts of damages affected TDI owners may be able to prove is a shorter lifespan for their emissions equipment. I understand this equipment is expensive to repair and replace. If VW modifies TDI software and equipment in such a way that the emissions equipment must work much harder, as people expect, it's reasonable to expect that equipment to fail more quickly. That's where money damages come in.



chris86vw said:


> I'm actually trying to sell a TDI (one of two, and was before this broke not reacting to it), not bothered as much as you seem to be from your theoretical eventual sale that you currently have no plans for. This one is at least semi valid, but it comes off less so with your other two nonsensical reason.


Whether you are bothered or not by any of this, or whether you can understand any of the many ways VW's fraud could damage its customers, some of which I've detailed here, could not concern me less.

I hope you are able to get a good price on the car you're selling.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Chilcoot said:


> I believe that VW is rational. I believe they decided to slip the software cheat into the emissions control system so that the vehicle could simultaneously perform well and pass emissions tests. If there's another logical reason for VW's cheat, I haven't seen it.




It takes roughly 12hp for these vehicles to maintain 50mph down a highway, that hasn't changed nor will the emissions programming change that. The emissions has nothing to do with the car making 150hp as they can make even more than that and the emissions systems in cheat mode or not are not interfering. 




> I realize that a '15 TDI has different emissions equipment than a '12 TDI, yes. But that's irrelevant to any point I've tried to make. Someone's assessment of a '15 has nothing to do with how VW chose to design its '12s. I'm not a fan of the Ford C-Max, but it's not because some Model Ts had a rough idle.


Actually it does as the 2012s will require hardware changes the 2015s likely will not, it is anything but irrelevant if you actually paid attention to why it was mentioned, but why would bother actually researching something you are ranting about.

Since they were able to add hardware and physical restrictions to the system and *gain* hp, also tuners are able to gain 20-30hp on the 2015s with the hardware in place it is foolish to even being to assume there will be a hp loss on your 2015 simply due to emissions changes.

Your attempt at a witty analogy doesn't make sense in this context.



> I don't quite understand this as a sentence written in English. But I think you mean that some people need to "shut the **** up" lest they "look ignorant." Well, at least your readers will know the level of discussion they'll need to accommodate.


Doesn't change that you are in fact quite ignorant on the topic, not liking that doesn't mean the level of the discussion changed.



> You misunderstand.


Not at all, not one bit actually.



> Among the sorts of damages affected TDI owners may be able to prove is a shorter lifespan for their emissions equipment. I understand this equipment is expensive to repair and replace. If VW modifies TDI software and equipment in such a way that the emissions equipment must work much harder, as people expect, it's reasonable to expect that equipment to fail more quickly. That's where money damages come in.


Shorter in comparison to what? In comparison to the time it may have lasted had VW never been caught? How is that mean you are entitled to any damages? The only changes they would make would mean that the equipment works as you thought it was when you bought it, as in it would last the time it should have lasted had they not cheated. You were and are not in anyway damaged by this with your 2015. Or are you stating that VW told you at the time of purchase they were cheating and therefore your emissions equipment will last longer? 






> I hope you are able to get a good price on the car you're selling.


Are you sure? it could possibly negatively affect the damages you believe you are entitled to...


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

I read your response. I've made the points I meant to and am comfortable with my half of our exchange ending here.


----------



## BeBop! (Jun 18, 2009)

chris86vw said:


> Are you sure? it could possibly negatively affect the damages you believe you are entitled to...


The only thing TDI owners are entitled to is that their cars are brought up to emissions spec. Then there's people like Chilcoot who think they deserve more than that because ... OMG I WAS LIED TO BY EVIL GERMANS!!!

99.9% of the owners didn't even know or care about emissions standards before it started. Now we have Jim and Bob coming out of the woodwork with their hands out because somehow they feel personally affected.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

Chilcoot said:


> We are expecting significant performance decreases when the necessary emissions fixes are applied.
> 
> We further expect significant additional maintenance costs, since the pollution control devices will have more work to do and will wear out more quickly.
> 
> ...





Chilcoot said:


> I read your response. I've made the points I meant to and am comfortable with my half of our exchange ending here.


Actually, you've made no coherent nor relevant points. Assuming the situation is equal to whatever extreme examples you can Google is not making any of the points you think it is. opcorn:


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

Well since this is a "crystal ball" type thread, I'll throw my hat in the ring with my somewhat conspiratorial conclusion. Why the heck not. I don't mind being proved wrong later. 

VW cannot fix these cars. They never could. That's why other manufacturers (Honda) abandoned their clean diesel programs....because the emissions were too hard to meet. VW tried a software fix earlier in the year. I got my letter in April and the fix in July, and it didn't work. This is AFTER the EPA and Euro authorities knew about it. If it was so easy, this mess wouldn't exist.

The current period isn't being seriously used by VW to pull a rabbit out of a hat with an engineering fix, that's a smokescreen while the company gathers forces to engage in the brutal de-certification of all those TDIs it sold....and the financial/logistical fallout that is bearing down on them. If anything, this will be entertaining theater.

Let's see if I'm right about this, and like I said, I don't mind being wrong. Just throwing it against the wall and seeing if it sticks.


----------



## rlfletch (Jun 11, 2000)

DerSpiegel said:


> Well since this is a "crystal ball" type thread, I'll throw my hat in the ring with my somewhat conspiratorial conclusion. Why the heck not. I don't mind being proved wrong later.
> 
> VW cannot fix these cars. They never could. That's why other manufacturers (Honda) abandoned their clean diesel programs....because the emissions were too hard to meet. VW tried a software fix earlier in the year, I got my letter in April and the fix in July, and it didn't work. This is AFTER the EPA and Euro authorities knew about it. If it was so easy, this mess wouldn't exist.
> 
> ...


This sounds depressingly spot on.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

DerSpiegel said:


> Well since this is a "crystal ball" type thread, I'll throw my hat in the ring with my somewhat conspiratorial conclusion. Why the heck not. I don't mind being proved wrong later.
> 
> VW cannot fix these cars. They never could. That's why other manufacturers (Honda) abandoned their clean diesel programs....because the emissions were too hard to meet. VW tried a software fix earlier in the year, I got my letter in April and the fix in July, and it didn't work. This is AFTER the EPA and Euro authorities knew about it. If it was so easy, this mess wouldn't exist.
> 
> ...


Possible and possibly probable.


----------



## Oval Baja (Feb 21, 2007)

*"it's Africa: Nobody cares about Africa."*



DerSpiegel said:


> Well since this is a "crystal ball" type thread, I'll throw my hat in the ring with my somewhat conspiratorial conclusion. Why the heck not. I don't mind being proved wrong later.
> 
> VW cannot fix these cars. They never could. That's why other manufacturers (Honda) abandoned their clean diesel programs....because the emissions were too hard to meet. VW tried a software fix earlier in the year, I got my letter in April and the fix in July, and it didn't work. This is AFTER the EPA and Euro authorities knew about it. If it was so easy, this mess wouldn't exist.
> 
> ...


VW buys back all the TDis and resells them to third world countries. opcorn:


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

Oval Baja said:


> VW buys back all the TDis and resells them to third world countries. opcorn:


I live in a third world country and this scenario will not work here.


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)

VW is going to sell all of these buy-back TDIs to ISIS. It's totally going to F-up Toyota's ISIS market share.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

DerSpiegel said:


> Well since this is a "crystal ball" type thread, I'll throw my hat in the ring with my somewhat conspiratorial conclusion. Why the heck not. I don't mind being proved wrong later.
> 
> VW cannot fix these cars. They never could. That's why other manufacturers (Honda) abandoned their clean diesel programs....because the emissions were too hard to meet. VW tried a software fix earlier in the year, I got my letter in April and the fix in July, and it didn't work. This is AFTER the EPA and Euro authorities knew about it. If it was so easy, this mess wouldn't exist.
> 
> ...


Has anyone looked at the EPA requirements and said they are unreasonable from an engineering perspective? I'm looking at this from the VW engineer's point of view. I run into this sort of thing in my engineering field. There are some codes/regulations I have to meet in which it is technically impossible to meet. Yet, it is required to be tested to be accepted. How do you engineer a system that must pass a test in which the test itself is unreasonable or outright unachievable from a design and engineering standpoint? If you consider this theory it makes sense why the VW engineers or management did what they did to "pass" the test. 

Everyone is assuming the EPA and their tests are infallible or are reasonable. Maybe they are not.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

Oval Baja said:


> VW buys back all the TDis and resells them to third world countries. opcorn:


Nope. 

First, in countries that do import a lot of pre-owned cars, there isn't enough of a market to absorb them all.

Second, any country with enough sophistication to be aware of the news isn't going to accept being a dumping-ground for a European company's problem. 

Third, countries that would be unsophisticated enough to accept those cars into their market do not have the infrastructure to maintain them (a car that can be rendered undrivable by the likely failure of a sensor or other electronic component isn't robust enough for that market).

If VW buys back the TDIs, they will be separated into component materials and recycled. Most of the plastic is recyclable, all of the metal is.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Rawcpoppa said:


> I live in a third world country and this scenario will not work here.


I live in a 3rd world county and it's the same thing here.




Oh, wait......you said country, not county.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

Uberhare said:


> Everyone is assuming the EPA and their tests are infallible or are reasonable. Maybe they are not.


Nobody's assuming that.

If a regulatory agency says "your product must meet this spec in order to be approved for sale", you have two choices:

Make a product that meets the spec.
Make a different ****ing product.


The only way the test would be 'unreasonable' is if they said "EVERY combustion engine must actively remove carbon from the air and turn it back into coal." That's impossible. NO engine can do that. If there were no alternatives to combustion engines, then there would be NO cars being built as a result of that type of regulation or test.

It's not 'unreasonable' to say "you can submit various types of engines for testing and here are the benchmarks". NOBODY was holding a gun to VW's head to make them build diesels. That was a choice they made even though they have gas, gas-electric hybrid, and (now) electric options *in the same chassis*. All VW had to do was say "well, we can't meet the diesel benchmarks, so we'll just stick with gas for now". They didn't have to continue sinking money into a failed technology, but they did. They didn't have to decide to cheat the tests so they could sell their failed technology, but they did. These are CHOICES that they made, stop trying to pin this on the regulators in any way. 

By contrast, Mazda and Subaru had diesel engines in vehicles that were rumored for the US market, but they made the wise, correct, choice to NOT cheat and NOT sell an engine that they could not make comply. 

I have no sympathy for VW/Audi in this. They aren't victims, they are the ones who engaged in fraud and illegal activities.


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

Uberhare said:


> I live in a 3rd world county and it's the same thing here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

DerSpiegel said:


> Well since this is a "crystal ball" type thread, I'll throw my hat in the ring with my somewhat conspiratorial conclusion. Why the heck not. I don't mind being proved wrong later.
> 
> VW cannot fix these cars. They never could. That's why other manufacturers (Honda) abandoned their clean diesel programs....because the emissions were too hard to meet. VW tried a software fix earlier in the year, I got my letter in April and the fix in July, and it didn't work. This is AFTER the EPA and Euro authorities knew about it. If it was so easy, this mess wouldn't exist.
> 
> ...


Your username is apropos..


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

Uberhare said:


> Has anyone looked at the EPA requirements and said they are unreasonable from an engineering perspective? I'm looking at this from the VW engineer's point of view. I run into this sort of thing in my engineering field. There are some codes/regulations I have to meet in which it is technically impossible to meet. Yet, it is required to be tested to be accepted. How do you engineer a system that must pass a test in which the test itself is unreasonable or outright unachievable from a design and engineering standpoint? If you consider this theory it makes sense why the VW engineers or management did what they did to "pass" the test.
> 
> Everyone is assuming the EPA and their tests are infallible or are reasonable. Maybe they are not.


Actually the problem is not one of "design and engineering". The problem here is one of schedule/timing and profitability. And corporate culture (organizational behavior).


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

ClownCar said:


> VW is going to sell all of these buy-back TDIs to ISIS. It's totally going to F-up Toyota's ISIS market share.


There is no way a Golf or Passat can handle the recoil of 50 cal mounting. And what ISIS soldier in his right mind will daily his ride with all of that desert dust/sand contaminating that interior!?!? :screwy:

Although... it would be really easy for the West to engineer a NOx-seeking missle in order to pinpoint them.


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

caj1 said:


> Your username is apropos..


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

DerSpiegel said:


> VW to pull a rabbit out of a hat


you knew what you were doing. :laugh:


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

*Deaths So Far: 59?*

Researchers from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Harvard University have assessed the human health impact thus far of VW's emissions scandal in the US.

Findings:
The excess emissions will cause approximately 59 (95% CI: 10 to 150) early deaths in the US.

When monetizing premature mortality using EPA-recommended data, the excess emissions have exacted a social cost of ~$450m over the sales period.

A return to compliance for all affected vehicles by the end of 2016 will avert ~130 early deaths and avoid ~$840m in social costs
Readers are warned, however, that these findings are the product of "educated people" employing "science" and "scientific methods" developed largely after the end of the "Middle Ages", so they're plainly not for everyone.


----------



## intercedeGLI (Sep 8, 2002)

Chilcoot said:


> Readers are warned, however, that these findings are the product of "educated people" employing "science" and "scientific methods" developed largely after the end of the "Middle Ages", so they're plainly not for everyone.


:laugh:



DerSpiegel said:


> VW cannot fix these cars. They never could. That's why other manufacturers (Honda) abandoned their clean diesel programs....because the emissions were too hard to meet. VW tried a software fix earlier in the year. I got my letter in April and the fix in July, and it didn't work. This is AFTER the EPA and Euro authorities knew about it. If it was so easy, this mess wouldn't exist.
> .




Remember the 445ft/lbs of torque diesel Mazda teased us with a few years ago? Yeah, that vanished like a fart in the wind. 

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2014/09/mazda-6-diesel-delayed-due-need-aftertreatment/

_According to our source, the after-treatment free Skyactiv-D diesel engine was unable to meet stringent US diesel emissions standards. When engineers finally produced a compliant package, the power output was reportedly considered too low to meet consumer expectations, leading to a major re-think of the diesel program._


----------



## surefooted (May 21, 2001)

Chilcoot said:


> ...however, that these findings are the product of "educated people" employing "science" and "scientific methods" developed largely after the end of the "Middle Ages", so they're plainly not for everyone.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Chilcoot said:


> Researchers from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Harvard University have assessed the human health impact thus far of VW's emissions scandal in the US.
> 
> Findings:
> The excess emissions will cause approximately 59 (95% CI: 10 to 150) early deaths in the US.
> ...


So, what they're saying is the TDI engine is a form of unintended population control. Nice. I'll drive my TDI a few extra miles this evening.:thumbup:


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

Chilcoot said:


> Readers are warned, however, that these findings are the product of "educated people" employing "science" and "scientific methods" developed largely after the end of the "Middle Ages", so they're plainly not for everyone.





surefooted said:


>


:laugh:


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

DerSpiegel said:


> Well since this is a "crystal ball" type thread, I'll throw my hat in the ring with my somewhat conspiratorial conclusion. Why the heck not. I don't mind being proved wrong later.
> 
> VW cannot fix these cars. They never could. That's why other manufacturers (Honda) abandoned their clean diesel programs....because the emissions were too hard to meet. VW tried a software fix earlier in the year. I got my letter in April and the fix in July, and it didn't work. This is AFTER the EPA and Euro authorities knew about it. If it was so easy, this mess wouldn't exist.
> 
> ...


VW admitteded to building 11 million diesel cars in Europe that only meet the standards while in "cheat" mode. I believe virtually every other manufacturer of standard everyday cars offers diesels in Europe. So your theory is every other car manufacturer in Europe also cheated the tests? 



OOOO-A3 said:


> Nobody's assuming that.
> 
> If a regulatory agency says "your product must meet this spec in order to be approved for sale", you have two choices:
> 
> ...


Agree completely. The idea that it isn't VW's fault because the tests are too tough is crazy. Standards are set, every manufacturer understands them, virtually all of them decide not to build a diesel but VW goes ahead with it, does it for years by breaking the law and eventually gets caught. 

Power companies are finding out that they can't meet emission standards while burning coal. Seems like part of TCL would say the tests are too tough so they should just break the law and fake the results.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Chilcoot said:


> Readers are warned, however, that these findings are the product of "educated people" employing "science" and "scientific methods" developed largely after the end of the "Middle Ages", so they're plainly not for everyone.



Appropriate response to repost


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

dmorrow said:


> VW admitted to building 11 million diesel cars in Europe that only meet the standards while in "cheat" mode. I believe virtually every other manufacturer of standard everyday cars offers diesels in Europe. So your theory is every other car manufacturer in Europe also cheated the tests?


See article. Read carefully. 
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/9...icles-with-cheat-device-need-hardware-fix.htm

I should have clarified, I was talking about US cars only.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

DerSpiegel said:


> See article. Read carefully.
> http://www.techtimes.com/articles/9...icles-with-cheat-device-need-hardware-fix.htm
> 
> I should have clarified, I was talking about US cars only.


I read that the U.S. test is more stringent than the European test, meeting the requirement will probably reduce performance and be costly. I don't see anything that says U.S. tests can't be met. 

Possibly diesels are going away because the overall cost to benefit no longer makes any sense compared to the gas hybrid.

I would also add that before the test became more stringent virtually no manufacturer sold diesels in the U.S. in any real numbers. Test became more stringent and still no other manufacturer sold diesels here so not sure how much effort was really put in by the rest of the manufacturers (getting part of the small diesel market in the U.S. not worth the trouble). They also may have figured out the requirements could be met but that the cost to benefit wasn't really there.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

Chilcoot said:


> Researchers from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Harvard University have assessed the human health impact thus far of VW's emissions scandal in the US.
> 
> Findings:
> The excess emissions will cause approximately 59 (95% CI: 10 to 150) early deaths in the US.
> ...


Turbio worked this out pages and pages ago, welcome to a month or so ago. Regardless, this has nothing to do with your triple-extreme example of how you're affected. :wave:


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Turbio worked this out pages and pages ago, welcome to a month or so ago. Regardless, this has nothing to do with your triple-extreme example of how you're affected. :wave:


To be fair, with roughly 24 comments per page times 192 pages I am pretty sure everything that could have been said already has. I occasionally come in and look at the last page or two but no chance I am going to read through all 4500 comments.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Chilcoot said:


> Researchers from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Harvard University have assessed the human health impact thus far of VW's emissions scandal in the US.
> 
> Findings:
> The excess emissions will cause approximately 59 (95% CI: 10 to 150) early deaths in the US.
> ...





Accidental L8 apex said:


> Turbio worked this out pages and pages ago, welcome to a month or so ago.


A simple search of this thread for posts by Turbio! containing the word "death" locates no posts about the study. While Turbio! did start a different thread on the subject, that thread's most recent post preceded the study's publication, and so the study obviously isn't discussed there.

Many, including myself, have discussed this topic a number of times in this thread. I have not seen this study reported or discussed here, though it could have (and should have) been.

If I'm the first to bring this study to your attention, kindly enjoy the wonder of its _*science*_.


----------



## Jettavr666 (Dec 5, 2000)

DerSpiegel said:


> Well since this is a "crystal ball" type thread, I'll throw my hat in the ring with my somewhat conspiratorial conclusion. Why the heck not. I don't mind being proved wrong later.
> 
> VW cannot fix these cars. They never could. That's why other manufacturers (Honda) abandoned their clean diesel programs....because the emissions were too hard to meet. VW tried a software fix earlier in the year. I got my letter in April and the fix in July, and it didn't work. This is AFTER the EPA and Euro authorities knew about it. If it was so easy, this mess wouldn't exist.
> 
> ...


oh shut up, you are not a mechanical engineer, you are complaining TDI owner.

almost any engine can meet emissions, its just a question of how much after treatment it takes.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Jettavr666 said:


> oh shut up, you are not a mechanical engineer, you are complaining TDI owner.
> 
> almost any engine can meet emissions, its just a question of how much after treatment it takes.


But can it be done so it makes economic sense for VW to do so rather than buying back 4, 5 or 6 year old cars?


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

spockcat said:


> But can it be done so it makes economic sense for VW to do so rather than buying back 4, 5 or 6 year old cars?


Buying them all back for what each owner thinks they are worth (giant pain the neck) or paying everyone more than they are worth (really expensive), collecting the cars and then doing what with them? I would drag the whole process out as long as possible then fix them. Have parts show up at dealers as slow as possible and the fix could take years to be fully implemented. In the mean time population is slowly dropping as a small percentage are totaled every year. 

If they are lucky many of the states won't enforce it and people won't want to or won't care enough to get it done.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Jettavr666 said:


> almost any engine can meet emissions, its just a question of how much after treatment it takes.


So why didn't they just do that in the first place?


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> So why didn't they just do that in the first place?


Some articles have speculated because of a mix of pride and also cost cutting. Initially VW had access to adblue but decided to discard it and just use a VW developed NOx trap instead which was cheaper than the Mercedes developed adblue system.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Chilcoot said:


> so the study obviously isn't discussed there.


Congrats on being the first to post a 19 day old report in a thread dedicated to dieselgate :thumbup:


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> So why didn't they just do that in the first place?


Costs money, or reduces performance, depending on the options taken. Has it been decided if they could just eat the cost of installing and paying lifetime for adblue?


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

One more day until the deadline.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

thegoose said:


> One more day until the deadline.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

GoHomePossum said:


> Mouhahaha.jpg


Cutest evil baby ever?


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

This is still a thing? 

I thought the mob had moved towards Starbucks and their controversial red cup.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

thegoose said:


> One more day until the deadline.


VW Dieselgate Advent Calendar? 

Each day you get a note telling you the value of your TDI vehicle has gone down by XX%. Or maybe just some yummy candy.


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

DerSpiegel said:


> Well since this is a "crystal ball" type thread, I'll throw my hat in the ring with my somewhat conspiratorial conclusion. Why the heck not. I don't mind being proved wrong later.
> 
> VW cannot fix these cars. They never could. That's why other manufacturers (Honda) abandoned their clean diesel programs....because the emissions were too hard to meet. VW tried a software fix earlier in the year. I got my letter in April and the fix in July, and it didn't work. This is AFTER the EPA and Euro authorities knew about it. If it was so easy, this mess wouldn't exist.
> 
> ...





Jettavr666 said:


> oh shut up, you are not a mechanical engineer, you are complaining TDI owner.
> 
> almost any engine can meet emissions, its just a question of how much after treatment it takes.


404 - complaint not found.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

DerSpiegel said:


> 404 - complaint not found.


:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## jcha (Jun 11, 1999)

The "goodwill" package supposedly consists of a $500 Visa card, $500 to be spent at dealer, and 3 years roadside assistance. I'm seeing news articles saying the dealer card is specifically for service. Does anyone know if it can be used for parts or accessories, or if it can only be used for service?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

jcha said:


> The "goodwill" package supposedly consists of a $500 Visa card, $500 to be spent at dealer, and 3 years roadside assistance. I'm seeing news articles saying the dealer card is specifically for service. Does anyone know if it can be used for parts or accessories, or if it can only be used for service?





where you should have checked first said:


> This card can be used on any transaction where the dealer will accept Visa debit as a form of payment.



But yeah the news source is probably right not VWs specific site regarding the package.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

jcha said:


> The "goodwill" package supposedly consists of a $500 Visa card, $500 to be spent at dealer, and 3 years roadside assistance. I'm seeing news articles saying the dealer card is specifically for service. Does anyone know if it can be used for parts or accessories, or if it can only be used for service?


Read the FAQ page of the VW Diesel Info website. The dealer gift card can be used for any purchases made at the dealer. Service, accessories, new vehicle purchase, etc.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*U.S. senators urge VW to expand diesel compensation, agree to buybacks*



> WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Two U.S. senators today urged Volkswagen AG to agree to buy back vehicles and offer compensation to drivers of all diesel vehicles that government regulators have charged have "defeat devices" to rig emissions standards.
> 
> Sens. Ed Markey, D-Mass., and Richard Blumenthal, D-Conn., wrote to VW's U.S. chief executive, Michael Horn, asking him to offer "more robust compensation for drivers of all VW vehicles purchased in the United States that contained defeat devices," the wrote.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

Blumenthal :thumbup:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Ross1013 said:


> Blumenthal :thumbup:


He is such a shameless publicity hound. Always was especially when he was attorney general in CT.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

I know we don't like Jalopnik on TCL, but... Wow, for real?

http://jalopnik.com/the-worst-part-about-volkswagens-diesel-scandal-is-note-1743620505












sent from The Ether


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

I enjoy how the writing becomes progressively larger and sloppier as his suburbanite rage grows ever more intense.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> I enjoy how the writing becomes progressively larger and sloppier as his suburbanite rage grows ever more intense.


It looks super fake to me, probably made by some art student who styled it for that effect and drove home that this is a "rich white person" rage by putting it on a golfer's pad. I'd rate the authenticity at 5%.



thegoose said:


> One more day until the deadline.


Sorta; they just have to announce a plan, or a _draft_ plan, as I saw it worded in one article. It sounded like the enforcement would be very weak and that VW might be allowed to be as vague as to say they have a tentative plan with multiple options and that it will be another 2 months before they decide what makes the most sense. We'll see later today whenever VW announces the plan, I guess.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

Written on the free pad of paper that the USGA mails out to try to get old members to join again. I just received another one. Great for grocery shopping lists. 

Should be really easy for police to track down who it is. Just get the USGA's mailing list.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Cooper said:


> Written on the free pad of paper that the USGA mails out to try to get old members to join again. I just received another one. Great for grocery shopping lists.
> 
> Should be really easy for police to track down who it is. Just get the USGA's mailing list.


I still say it's a scam. It contains details that people don't include in threats, such as "kids with me _on the weekends_" which gives the impression this is a divorced dad who only partly takes care of his kids. It's the kind of detail that somebody working a spin angle puts in so they can stereotype and characterize people to marginalize the viewpoint.


----------



## T_Dub (Nov 9, 2006)

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/20/more-diesel-emissions-scandals-report/

More upcoming. Whether you designed hardware or software to cheat, its still cheating. I would wager that most diesels cheat the system, VW is probably just the only one with a detectable software switch.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

spockcat said:


> *U.S. senators urge VW to expand diesel compensation, agree to buybacks*


What if I don't want them to buy back my VW TDI? Are owners going to be required to hand over the keys?


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Uberhare said:


> What if I don't want them to buy back my VW TDI? Are owners going to be required to hand over the keys?


Take the fix and carry on. My sister was about to sell her '11 TDI wagon. Now, she cannot without taking an insane bath. She would gladly take the buyout. I hope that VW does offer a buyout.


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

Uberhare said:


> What if I don't want them to buy back my VW TDI? Are owners going to be required to hand over the keys?


Uh oh, never thought of that.....are we close to a divide by zero situation there?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

MCTB said:


> Take the fix and carry on. My sister was about to sell her '11 TDI wagon. Now, she cannot without taking an insane bath. She would gladly take the buyout. I hope that VW does offer a buyout.


I"ll take a buy back on my 2012.

I'll keep my 2015 with a fix 


I personally don't predict any sort of buyback option coming.


Wish the GF was shopping for a new car (I am for her she isn't  ), would definitely try to work something out with VW taking the 2012 on a trade for a good deal on a tiggie for her, use my 1000 bucks in dealer visa cards, the 1500 or whatever loyalty.. she'd have like a 4 buck payment


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

*Bosch being looked at too*

Looks like Bosch is getting a talking to...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015...ive-idUSKCN0T82Q320151119#ePFFjhgsi9TdZMzY.97


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...air-says-vw-likely-will-buy-back-some-diesels

CARB chair says VW likely will buy back some diesels

WASHINGTON -- The chief of the California Air Resources Board says Volkswagen “likely” will buy back at least some of the roughly 325,000 VW vehicles using the first generation of its 2.0-liter diesel with emissions-masking software.

In a question-and-answer interview with German business newspaper Handelsblatt, CARB Chairman Mary Nichols says the agency expects that vehicles with the first generation of VW’s 2.0-liter diesel engine will require a hardware “retrofit” to bring their emissions into compliance. The trouble is, Nichols said, such retrofits have struggled to achieve their intended goals in the past.

“We have seen in the past that retrofit devices just don’t work as well as they are intended to, even if it is being done by the original manufacturer,” Nichols told Handelsblatt. “So I think it is quite likely that they will end up buying back at least some portion of the fleet from the current owners.”

Nichols’ statements, made before reviewing VW’s fix proposal that it must submit to CARB today, marks the first time a regulator has said vehicle buybacks may be a necessary part of VW’s plan to fix its roughly 482,000 noncompliant diesels.

A Volkswagen spokeswoman said the automaker plans to submit its fix proposal to the EPA and CARB but declined to discuss specifics.

Nichols told the German business paper that the agency has 20 business days to review the proposal.

“Meanwhile there will be continuing investigations to determine the scope and extent of the problem that will relate to penalty decision and any other legal actions that might be taken,” Nichols told Handelsblatt.

VW has said about 325,000 of the noncompliant vehicles are powered by the first generation of VW’s 2.0-liter diesel engine, which uses a lean NOx trap to clean up smog-forming nitrogen oxide emissions. The second- and third-generation diesels use selective catalytic reduction exhaust aftertreatment systems and will need more modest fixes.

Nichols told Handelsblatt that the second-generation engine, used on about 90,000 Passats from the 2012-14 model years, may require software and hardware changes. The third-generation 2.0-liter diesels, used on about 67,000 VWs from the 2015 model year and later, can produce compliant emissions with a software change alone.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Many of us had been saying from the beginning that it's almost impossible for VW to retrofit a SCR system into a MK5&6 Golf/Jettas.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Rawcpoppa said:


> http://www.autonews.com/article/201...air-says-vw-likely-will-buy-back-some-diesels


Great news as my sister is in California!


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

MCTB said:


> Great news as my sister is in California!


This speculative buyback wouldn't be limited to just California


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Hajduk said:


> This speculative buyback wouldn't be limited to just California


True but CARB seems to carry a bit more weight I imagine.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

Hajduk said:


> Many of us had been saying from the beginning that it's almost impossible for VW to retrofit a SCR system into a MK5&6 Golf/Jettas.


Yup, though now I am thinking twice about buying new snows for my MK6 NOx box.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Could be an interesting turn and neighboring states to CA could be affected by this. Problem is what other wagon(s) are out there? Very few and wifey isn't too fond of many SUV for her DD and we have large GSD's that we need the space / access ease (in/out) for.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

MCTB said:


> Take the fix and carry on. My sister was about to sell her '11 TDI wagon. Now, she cannot without taking an insane bath. She would gladly take the buyout. I hope that VW does offer a buyout.


But there may not be a fix. And quite honestly, I don't care about the fix as I don't have to deal with emissions testing. The thing I'm concerned about is the government telling me I'm REQUIRED to turn in my vehicle because it doesn't meet emissions standards. No. I like my car and plan to keep it regardless of the outcome. Just keep sending me "goodwill" gifts like prepaid cards and I'm I'll be OK.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Uberhare said:


> But there may not be a fix. And quite honestly, I don't care about the fix as I don't have to deal with emissions testing. The thing I'm concerned about is the government telling me I'm REQUIRED to turn in my vehicle because it doesn't meet emissions standards. No. I like my car and plan to keep it regardless of the outcome. Just keep sending me "goodwill" gifts like prepaid cards and I'm I'll be OK.


Don't forget that one option for the "fix" could be to reduce emissions somewhere besides the cars they built. If they pay to retrofit a power plant or replace school busses with new cleaner ones that could offset their requirements and theoretically everyone would be happy. (No, I have no delusions about everyone _actually_ being happy.)


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Uberhare said:


> But there may not be a fix. And quite honestly, I don't care about the fix as I don't have to deal with emissions testing. The thing I'm concerned about is the government telling me I'm REQUIRED to turn in my vehicle because it doesn't meet emissions standards. No. I like my car and plan to keep it regardless of the outcome. Just keep sending me "goodwill" gifts like prepaid cards and I'm I'll be OK.


Worst case I don't think you would be required to turn in the vehicle but if your state requires emission testing then you might not be able to renew registration. The car is still yours to keep but it becomes a fancy lawn ornament or a non-road legal track toy.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

Hajduk said:


> Many of us had been saying from the beginning that it's almost impossible for VW to retrofit a SCR system into a MK5&6 Golf/Jettas.


Yeah. Anything is possible, theoretically, but it would certainly be cost-prohibitive from many angles (development, implementation, support).


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

EPA identifies more Volkswagen cars that cheat emissions

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/20/epa-more-volkswagen-emissions-cheat/



The scope of the Volkswagen diesel scandal continues to grow. In a meeting Thursday, Volkswagen and Audi executives told officials from the Environmental Protection Agency there are more cars that contain defeat devices that circumvent emissions standards.

The new revelations affect Volkswagen, Porsche, and Audi cars equipped with 3.0-liter diesel engines. Previously, the EPA had charged in a Nov. 2 Notice of Violations that certain cars from the 2014, 2015, and 2016 model years equipped with the engines contained the illegal software.

But now, the EPA says the issues identified in that second Notice of Violations now extend to vehicles equipped with the 3.0-liter engines from all model years 2009 through 2016. Approximately 75,000 more cars are now affected in the US, according to the EPA, meaning the total of 3.0-liter engine cars containing defeat devices is now 85,000.

Previously, approximately 482,000 cars equipped with 2.0-liter engines had been marked since the scandal broke in late September.

"EPA and CARB will continue to investigate and will take all appropriate action," an EPA spokesperson said in a written statement.

The latest revelations come only days after Volkswagen's Michael Horn, CEO of North America, repeatedly apologized for the diesel cheating during remarks made at the Los Angeles Auto Show.


----------



## CostcoPizza (Jan 20, 2008)

Air and water do mix said:


> Don't forget that one option for the "fix" could be to reduce emissions somewhere besides the cars they built. If they pay to retrofit a power plant or replace school busses with new cleaner ones that could offset their requirements and theoretically everyone would be happy. (No, I have no delusions about everyone _actually_ being happy.)


What do you think the likelihood of this is?

I'm starting to think VW could do a lot more good by spending the $$$ on some other environmental issue than a retrofit.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Air and water do mix said:


> Don't forget that one option for the "fix" could be to reduce emissions somewhere besides the cars they built. If they pay to retrofit a power plant or replace school busses with new cleaner ones that could offset their requirements and theoretically everyone would be happy. (No, I have no delusions about everyone _actually_ being happy.)


Won't make anyone happy, I plant a tree everytime I eat mexican and my wife *STILL* is mad at me when I'm not "_courteous enough to walk into another room_" :banghead: :facepalm:


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Worst case I don't think you would be required to turn in the vehicle but if your state requires emission testing then you might not be able to renew registration. The car is still yours to keep but it becomes a fancy lawn ornament or a non-road legal track toy.


Emissions testing is not necessarily a state-level thing. It's based more on geographical location and zip code or county. For example, in WA State the emissions testing requirement is based on what zip code the vehicle is registered in. It is not a state-wide requirement in order to register or own a vehicle. In my case, I live in a zip code area that is exempt from any kind of testing. All I need to do to renew my tabs is to pay the tabs fee.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

Air and water do mix said:


> Don't forget that one option for the "fix" could be to reduce emissions somewhere besides the cars they built. If they pay to retrofit a power plant or replace school busses with new cleaner ones that could offset their requirements and theoretically everyone would be happy. (No, I have no delusions about everyone _actually_ being happy.)


I suggested this idea quite a few pages back and have felt more and more confident about the prospect of it as time has gone on.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

and EVERY VW diesel is screwed.....


http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...al-protection-agency-3-liter-diesel/76111106/

:facepalm:


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Air and water do mix said:


> Don't forget that one option for the "fix" could be to reduce emissions somewhere besides the cars they built. If they pay to retrofit a power plant or replace school busses with new cleaner ones that could offset their requirements and theoretically everyone would be happy. (No, I have no delusions about everyone _actually_ being happy.)


Definitely my hope. Allow VW to spend the money they would have spent fixing half a million US vehicles on some other project with far greater environmental benefits.

However, sounds like CARB thinks '15 TDIs can be cleaned up with just a software fix. For owners of those cars, VW will still be exposed to claims for decreased mileage and performance, loss of resale value (though there's overlap between the two), and increased maintenance costs.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

You'reDrunk said:


> and EVERY VW diesel is screwed.....
> 
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...al-protection-agency-3-liter-diesel/76111106/
> ...


They are STILL in denial, it's crazy.



USA Today said:


> Brad Stertz, a spokesman for Audi, said the company has admitted that it did not notify the EPA about the extra emissions control equipment. *But he declined to acknowledge that the system qualifies as a defeat device.*
> 
> "So we agreed to take all of the 3-liter disel engines, look at the software, recalibrate it and then we'll resubmit it to the agencies so they're comfortable with how it's performing and what it's doing," Stertz said.


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

You'reDrunk said:


> and EVERY VW diesel is screwed.....
> 
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...al-protection-agency-3-liter-diesel/76111106/
> ...


Thats why VW was up year over year for the last 2 months


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

Silly_me said:


> Won't make anyone happy, I plant a tree everytime I eat mexican and my wife *STILL* is mad at me when I'm not "_courteous enough to walk into another room_" :banghead: :facepalm:


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

shawshank redemption said:


> Thats why VW was up year over year for the last 2 months


It's easy to set sales records when you are practically giving away cars for free.


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

So all 3.0 TDI are affected? Wow.

What are they doing? Golfing? Skiing?


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

2.0T_Convert said:


> It's easy to set sales records when you are practically giving away cars for free.


Yeah, it's not sustainable. They MAY be able to clear November and December without depleting inventory too far, but the momentum can't last. 

And this is how they're doing it:



> Volkswagen of America is offering a $2,000 customer loyalty incentive this month to prevent a possible wave of owner defections in the wake of its admission of diesel emissions violations.
> 
> Existing VW owners will receive $2,000 toward the purchase or lease of any new VW gasoline or hybrid model, according to the brand’s website. The offer can be combined with any other VW offer, except for dealer employee participation or fleet programs, a VW spokeswoman said.
> 
> ...


*http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/vw-offers-2000-customer-loyalty-cash-existing-customers*


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> Don't forget that one option for the "fix" could be to reduce emissions somewhere besides the cars they built. If they pay to retrofit a power plant or replace school busses with new cleaner ones that could offset their requirements and theoretically everyone would be happy. (No, I have no delusions about everyone _actually_ being happy.)


Only VW and the some of the VW owners would be happy, the rest of the population would see this as them breaking the law and then not cleaning up their mess. If someone pours chemicals out behind their building I don't want a system where they plant enough trees to "offset" their mess and just moves on. Essentially your plan has them paying a fine and everything is good, no hassle just write the check. Cars polluted when we built them, they still pollute, and we aren't going to do anything to fix them.


----------



## mx5er (Apr 28, 2001)

g-man_ae said:


> I know we don't like Jalopnik on TCL, but... Wow, for real?
> 
> http://jalopnik.com/the-worst-part-about-volkswagens-diesel-scandal-is-note-1743620505
> 
> ...


Education has clearly failed this tool. And apparently, he reproduced :facepalm: 

I recommend TDI owners to de-badge their cars for the time being :facepalm:


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

2.0T_Convert said:


> It's easy to set sales records when you are practically giving away cars for free.


Works for Hyundai


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

dmorrow said:


> I don't want a system where they plant enough trees to "offset" their mess and just moves on.


I agree that our first impulse should be remediation of the harm that the person or entity caused.

But sometimes that's so impossible or impractical that an alternative must be found. For instance, given the limitations of current technology, how the heck could BP actually cleanup the Deepwater Horizon spill? Sometimes we have to get creative.

Let's say iit will cost Volkswagen $X to retrofit all of its offending diesels to comply with emissions laws.
Let's further say that this work will result in an emissions reduction of Y tons of NOx.

However, suppose that spending $X to retrofit coal plants with flameless oxidation technology will result in an emissions reduction of 10Y tons of NOx.
(These are made up numbers, of course.) Seems to me that's would be the socially-correct choice.

Note that mitigation banks already operate on this principle.


----------



## NoDubJustYet (Mar 25, 2002)

Ross1013 said:


> So all 3.0 TDI are affected? Wow.
> *
> What are they doing*? Golfing? Skiing?


Just wait until Christmas and New Years... Germany pretty much shuts down from the week before Christmas to the Monday after New Years.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

ByronLLN said:


> Yeah, it's not sustainable. They MAY be able to clear November and December without depleting inventory too far, but the momentum can't last.
> 
> And this is how they're doing it:
> 
> ...


Proves no one gives a **** about ethics or the environment if it means saving a buck..


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

caj1 said:


> Proves no one gives a **** about ethics or the environment if it means saving a buck..


cost benefit analysis.....pretty sure most humans do care about the planet, but if you go broke trying to save it; it doesn't make sense.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

PnZrFsT said:


> I suggested this idea quite a few pages back and have felt more and more confident about the prospect of it as time has gone on.


I read that here, so let me offer kudos, then.  :beer:

I certainly hope I didn't give the impression it was my idea, 'cuz it certainly wasn't!


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

caj1 said:


> Proves no one gives a **** about ethics or the environment if it means saving a buck..


Yeah, this isn't a greenhouse emission. We are worried about the possibility that the margin of error is great enough that people will die prematurely because of this. Get your outrage meter calibrated.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

My eager is that VW is going to be paying for a lot of DEF fill ups.

On another note, my GTI just got an ECU update while at the dealer for something else. It definitely feels like it left some horses back at the dealer now. :sly:


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

caj1 said:


> Proves no one gives a **** about ethics or the environment if it means saving a buck..


dieselgate is literally not a concern to me in terms of my decision to buy a vw or not.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

caj1 said:


> Proves no one gives a **** about ethics or the environment if it means saving a buck..


They do care, but VW isn't cheating on the gasoline models. The discounts are on the gasoline models, which ARE emissions legal. Nobody is buying TDIs from dealers and saying "screw the environment" because there's a stop-sale on TDIs now.



You'reDrunk said:


> cost benefit analysis.....pretty sure most humans do care about the planet, but if you go broke trying to save it; it doesn't make sense.


This part is true as well. Everybody is going to die, the pollution is just a matter of how quickly we die and how many other species of animals we kill off with our pollution along the way. Overall, humanity is generally making standards for cleaner air and water every year. There's still some countries that are playing catch-up, but the trend is towards having economic growth and becoming wealthy enough to then require expensive technologies that make the air and water cleaner.

------------------------------------------------------

Separate from those, it seems that VW did in fact submit their plan to VW. I had joked that it might suck and not have any detail and from what I see from ARB, details are not forthcoming at this time.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/newsrelease.php?id=772



California Air Resources Board said:


> UPDATE: Volkswagen submits recall plan for 2-liter diesel cars to California Air Resources Board
> 
> 
> SACRAMENTO -
> ...


I don't see anything in there that says what the actual fix is, or if VW has even decided on what the fix is going to be.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> They do care, but VW isn't cheating on the gasoline models. The discounts are on the gasoline models, which ARE emissions legal. Nobody is buying TDIs from dealers and saying "screw the environment" because there's a stop-sale on TDIs now.


They seemingly are but it has gotten lost/forgotten in this thread and the mods here shut down all the threads created specifically about the gas model issue:

*VW emissions scandal widens to 2016 models
Crisis-hit Volkswagen's troubles rumble on as new models caught up in the emissions-rigging affair 
*



> Volkswagen faces a further widening of the emissions-rigging scandal after admitting hundreds of thousands of new cars from its 2016 range could contain illegal software to help them cheat pollution tests.
> 
> Some 430,000 of these vehicles have “implausible” CO2 ratings, VW revealed today.
> 
> ...


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> I don't see anything in there that says what the actual fix is, or if VW has even decided on what the fix is going to be.


That's what I was wondering at first, but I think what they are saying is the report submitted to CARB had to have all those items addressed and that the CARB had 20 days to review what was submitted. If CARB is okay with what VW submitted is when we, the public, get to fix/recall the cars


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Chilcoot said:


> I agree that our first impulse should be remediation of the harm that the person or entity caused.
> 
> But sometimes that's so impossible or impractical that an alternative must be found. For instance, given the limitations of current technology, how the heck could BP actually cleanup the Deepwater Horizon spill? Sometimes we have to get creative.
> 
> ...


BP spent billions cleaning up the spill before they spent billions on fines and at this point VW hasn't spent billions trying to make this issue right. Once it is proven that this issue can't be fixed then they can move to the next step.

Putting money into some other cleanup not related to what they did is nothing more than a fine as VW wouldn't actually have to do anything.


----------



## CADURE (Feb 28, 2015)

I agree with this perspective:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf66PM3enh0


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW refuses compensation for European owners of rigged diesels*




> FRANKFURT -- Volkswagen Group will not offer compensation to European customers who bought a diesel car with "cheat" software, taking a different tack from in the U.S. where the automaker will provide a goodwill package worth $1,000 to affected owners.
> 
> In Europe, the automaker will tailor a package of measures to ensure that owners of cars are inconvenienced as little as possible when their vehicles are recalled for fixes to make them compliant with type approval regulations, a VW spokesman said.
> 
> ...


----------



## VarianceVQ (Jun 26, 2005)

Just say "we would go bankrupt if we offered the same package in Europe".


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

VarianceVQ said:


> Just say "we would go bankrupt if we offered the same package in Europe".


No, I actually agree with them on this point. The EU was as much at fault for pushing Diesel as anyone else, so it's not like the US where you have TDIclub fanboys carrying the banner and torch, performing conversions along the way. 

The US is a special case here, and it's a marketing thing.



<-- fangirl, for sure and has sold tons of TDIs


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> No, I actually agree with them on this point. The EU was as much at fault for pushing Diesel as anyone else, so it's not like the US where you have TDIclub fanboys carrying the banner and torch, performing conversions along the way.
> 
> The US is a special case here, and it's a marketing thing.
> 
> <-- fangirl, for sure and has sold tons of TDIs


As virtually manufacturer in Europe offers a diesel do you think the rest also cheated and haven't been caught or was VW was the only one? If VW was the only one, how do you think this was the EU's fault? 

Also, having cheap diesel with regulations on how clean it is to burn isn't the same as encouraging companies to cheat on the tests. The company still has to make a decision on whether to meet the regulations or not.

In an article from Firday, VW now admits the 3.0 diesel also was cheating - 



> *VW says 75,000 vehicles from 2009-2016 model years have emissions-cheating software*
> 
> The EPA announced that 75,000 additional Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche vehicles equipped with the 3.0-liter diesel engine contain defeat devices, Automotive News reports. The agency revised the number of vehicles believed to possess emissions-cheating software from 10,000 to approximately 85,000 vehicles, *bringing the total number of vehicles said to produce higher-than-advertied emissions levels in the U.S. to about 567,000*.
> 
> ...



http://autoweek.com/article/vw-diesel-scandal/epa-30-liter-diesel-vw-audi-and-porsche-models-also-have-defeat-devices


----------



## intercedeGLI (Sep 8, 2002)

dmorrow said:


> If VW was the only one, how do you think this was the EU's fault?


http://phys.org/news/2015-11-eu-vw-whistleblowers-authorities.html

_"Officials from the EU informed the US environment group ICCT about the possible cheating on nitrogen oxide emissions," Mary Nichols, who heads the California Air Resources Board, told WirtschaftsWoche.

The weekly reported that the European Commission had been told by a Volkswagen supplier of the cheating as early as in 2011.
But the commission failed to act, prompting frustrated officials to pass the information on to US-based environmental group The International Council on Clean Transportation which in turned informed US authorities.

"If this information is confirmed, that means that the former and current industry commissioners, respectively (Antonio) Tajani and (Elzbieta) Bienkowska, had hidden the facts and lied before the European Parliament," said two Greens European lawmakers Yannick Jadot and Karima Delli in a joint statement.
_

Maybe that's why it's the EU's fault.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

intercedeGLI said:


> http://phys.org/news/2015-11-eu-vw-whistleblowers-authorities.html
> 
> _"Officials from the EU informed the US environment group ICCT about the possible cheating on nitrogen oxide emissions," Mary Nichols, who heads the California Air Resources Board, told WirtschaftsWoche.
> 
> ...


Interesting article, thanks.

I still don't see the EU failing to act on a tip as being the same as it being their fault that this happened. Me committing a crime, someone giving a tip to the police, police not acting on it, still puts the crime on me. Without knowing more about the tip or what actually happened it is difficult to say what broke down.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

Air and water do mix said:


> I read that here, so let me offer kudos, then.  :beer:
> 
> I certainly hope I didn't give the impression it was my idea, 'cuz it certainly wasn't!


Sorry dude, I didn't mean to sound like I was calling you out for it. Re-reading what I wrote certainly made it seem like that. 

I'm sure I wasn't the first to say it either! :beer::beer:


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

I haven't been very vocal about my feelings toward this scandal, but I've become increasingly angrier about the whole situation. If VW offers a buyback (fat chance) I'm taking it. Not because I give a hoot about emissions (at least I'm honest) or that I won't get over having to deal with DEF, but because VW lied to consumers to make a buck. I can't let it go. The fanboy/apologists posts, especially on Facebook, only make it worse.


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

For those of you with access to BBC shows in some way:

VW cars can also cheat European emissions tests, BBC learns

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34857404

A laboratory test carried out for BBC Panorama shows that Volkswagen diesel cars programmed with a "defeat device" can cheat official European pollution tests, as well as tests in the US.

The company told the BBC it believes this is the first time the cheating software has been filmed in action.

VW has admitted it used the device to rig tighter pollution tests in America.

But it's been more ambiguous about whether it used the same tactics to actively cheat official European tests.

Panorama's results suggest that it did.

It could have huge implications for the company, which says it is still yet to determine whether the cheating software even breaks the law in Europe.

VW has confirmed that 8.5 million European cars have the software, 1.2 million of them in the UK.

The defeat device is a programme in the car's computer that can work out when it is being tested in a laboratory, and then cut poisonous nitrogen oxide (NOx) gas pollution from the exhaust pipe.

For years, this software allowed the company to pass strict US emissions laws yet still make a car that performed well on the road. Now it looks possible that VW was also cheating in Europe.

A side-effect of cutting NOx can often be lower miles-per-gallon.

Panorama took a VW Passat Blue Motion diesel to an accredited testing laboratory in the Czech Republic. No British lab we asked would let us in, but this lab is governed by the same rules and regulations as those in the UK and it regularly certifies new cars and engines for the European market.

We also took a retired former government vehicle inspector, Ted Foreman, along to make sure everything was done by the book (a 280-page book).
Clever software

And we confirmed the Passat was programmed with the defeat device.

*After prepping the car to the letter of the regulations, the lab ran the standard Euro 5 emissions test. It's the same exam this model of car would have had to have passed before it went on sale.

And it passed. Emitting just 167 mg/km of poisonous NOx gases. The Euro 5 limit is 180 mg/km.

VW's clever software knows when it's being tested, because the routine is the same every single time. Starting with a cold engine, in a lab that's between 20 and 30 degrees centigrade, it's then driven for six miles on a rolling road, no turns, with exactly the same gear changes at exactly the same times, and all within a speed at two km/h either side of set limits.

The whole thing, including some idle time, always lasts 20 minutes and 20 seconds.

So, we then tried to trick the computer into thinking it was out of the lab, by simply accelerating hard a few times, taking it above motorway speeds. Straight afterwards, we ran the Euro 5 test again, but with one simple difference. We started with a hot engine this time.

The same car failed,* spectacularly. *Emitting 435 mg/km of NOx (remember the EU limit is 180 mg/km).
*
So, drive the same drive, but fool the car into thinking it's on a real road, and it chucks out two-and-a-half times the amount of pollution as before.

When we showed VW our results, they confirmed the car had been cheating.

"With this software, it was possible for the vehicle to recognise laboratory test conditions and the engine control could switch over to emitting compliant nitrogen dioxide levels during the test cycle.

"This would have been the likely condition in your test. As you ran the second test (described as a hot test) immediately afterwards, the vehicle did not recognise this as a test condition and changed its emission strategy."

The car industry has always said that pollution is worse out on the roads because of bad driving, bad weather and hills. Panorama's test suggests that cars are also to blame.

This scandal has a long way to run. We still don't know what might happen to all the "fixed" cars. Will they have a worse MPG for example? And we still don't know how many billions of euros it'll eventually cost the company.

Richard Westcott's report on Volkswagen will be shown on Panorama at 20:30 GMT on BBC1 on 23 November 2015 - and available to watch later via BBC iPlayer.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

PnZrFsT said:


> I haven't been very vocal about my feelings toward this scandal, but I've become increasingly angrier about the whole situation. If VW offers a buyback (fat chance) I'm taking it. Not because I give a hoot about emissions (at least I'm honest) or that I won't get over having to deal with DEF, but because VW lied to consumers to make a buck. I can't let it go. The fanboy/apologists posts, especially on Facebook, only make it worse.


I understand how you feel about it. Will be interesting to see if they offer a buyback on certain cars how they come up with a value for them. Could be a great thing for you or another headache that you can't reasonably collect on.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Still curious if they can even fix them. I love mine, and hope to keep it! But not if it loses 10mpg post recall. Hopefully PA doesn't care, and it won't be required.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

BBC said:


> So, we then tried to trick the computer into thinking it was out of the lab, by simply accelerating hard a few times, taking it above motorway speeds. Straight afterwards, we ran the Euro 5 test again, but with one simple difference. We started with a hot engine this time.
> 
> The same car failed,* spectacularly. *Emitting 435 mg/km of NOx (remember the EU limit is 180 mg/km).
> 
> ...


That's especially bad because the worst pollution is generally after a cold start. They ran the Euro 5 test with a hot start where it should have performed much better, and yet it still did far worse. That's terrible news, although I think BBC took some liberties with their claim that VW confirmed the car was cheating, since officially it seems that VW is still not confirming that the 3.0 TDI in Europe is a cheater. Still, it appears we're on our way down that road. Does anyone know how many 3.0 TDIs have been sold in Europe since its introduction? It makes me suspect that the V10 TDI is a cheater too, but I'll bet it has sold in such minimal numbers that the government bodies will just give it a free pass.


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

PnZrFsT said:


> I haven't been very vocal about my feelings toward this scandal, but I've become increasingly angrier about the whole situation. If VW offers a buyback (fat chance) I'm taking it. Not because I give a hoot about emissions (at least I'm honest) or that I won't get over having to deal with DEF, but because VW lied to consumers to make a buck. I can't let it go. The fanboy/apologists posts, especially on Facebook, only make it worse.



I'd take the buyback too - not because I'm looking to make a buck or anything, but our plan was to move in to an AWD SUV and putting that on hold while they fix the car in a year or so (09 Sportswagon highline) or selling it at less than what it should just doesn't sit well with me. We were actually hoping to be in an AWD before the winter got bad.

I'm not a "will never buy another VW again" but they currently don't offer what we need. Tiguan is close but there's not enough trunk space (my mother is in a wheelchair and we frequently need to transport my parents. Chair won't fit in the tiguan trunk). Toureg is way too expensive for what it is, and that's not including upkeep.

'course if they could somehow fast track that Alltrack sportswagon to the lots...


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

PnZrFsT said:


> I haven't been very vocal about my feelings toward this scandal, but I've become increasingly angrier about the whole situation. If VW offers a buyback (fat chance) I'm taking it. Not because I give a hoot about emissions (at least I'm honest) or that I won't get over having to deal with DEF, but because VW lied to consumers to make a buck. I can't let it go. The fanboy/apologists posts, especially on Facebook, only make it worse.


I agree it is upsetting on many levels. Unfortunately I doubt there is going to be a US buyback if they aren't even willing to give EU owners a token compensation. Looks like this one is going to have to go to the courts in my opinion.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

PnZrFsT said:


> The fanboy/apologists posts, especially on Facebook, only make it worse.


So is your post, makes you seem like the kind of person that actually would screw people over for a buck too. 

Kind of lame.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

PnZrFsT said:


> I haven't been very vocal about my feelings toward this scandal, but I've become increasingly angrier about the whole situation. If VW offers a buyback (fat chance) I'm taking it. Not because I give a hoot about emissions (at least I'm honest) or that I won't get over having to deal with DEF, but because VW lied to consumers to make a buck. I can't let it go. The fanboy/apologists posts, especially on Facebook, only make it worse.


Companies lie ever day to consumers about all kinds of stuff. VW just happened to get caught. 


I'm honestly not upset at VW or what they did. Hell, I give them some credit for creating a clever way to "pass" the testing while still giving the end user a vehicle that doesn't have performance restrictions. This entire debacle has been blown out of proportion by the media because of the "lying" part. It's a non-safety related problem so it's not a big deal to me.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

.yuk. said:


> Still curious if they can even fix them. I love mine, and hope to keep it! But not if it loses 10mpg post recall. Hopefully PA doesn't care, and it won't be required.


DPF delete + tune and gain 8-10mpg. Especially if your state doesn't have emissions testing..


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

Here's what I still don't understand: why still program the cheat into the EA288 engines?? They have DEF, I see no need to cheat. Something doesn't add up. Will it use DEF more liberally? Doesn't seem like reason enough to cheat. Can't figure this out. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

UncleJB said:


> I agree it is upsetting on many levels. Unfortunately I doubt there is going to be a US buyback if they aren't even willing to give EU owners a token compensation. Looks like this one is going to have to go to the courts in my opinion.


They may not be facing as much of a battle in the EU, home field vs foreign car. Not sure, haven't really looked in to it. Different regulations, number of vehicles, types of repair (since EU has easier standards to meet) may all play a factor in not offering gift cards there.

It's all a bunch of hurry up and wait. :/


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

jen_madcity said:


> Here's what I still don't understand: why still program the cheat into the EA288 engines?? They have DEF, I see no need to cheat. Something doesn't add up. Will it use DEF more liberally? Doesn't seem like reason enough to cheat. Can't figure this out.


To reduce DEF usage and make customers think of their cars as appliances that don't need any input. While VW has been cheating, a lot of the other automakers have been struggling with the public perception that their engines have high DEF usage.

Example



Ramforum.com said:


> First week with new 2014 3500 Dually Laramie, Cummins 6.7 ltr.
> Previously heard stories about some users getting up to 10K miles on a tank of DEF. My truck had 250 miles not towing, and 520 miles towing a 14K camper and used nearly the entire tank of DEF. Interested in other Cummins w/ DEF users experience.


Meanwhile you get smug VW owners with a cheater DEF system able to do with only adding DEF when they get an oil change, for example, so it becomes something the dealer takes care of instead of something the owner needs to be bothered with.


----------



## Jimmy Russells (Feb 4, 2007)

MXTHOR3 said:


> DPF delete + tune and gain 8-10mpg. Especially if your state doesn't have emissions testing..


Basically anyone who takes money from VW and then does this, is a massive hypocrite.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> To reduce DEF usage and make customers think of their cars as appliances that don't need any input. While VW has been cheating, a lot of the other automakers have been struggling with the public perception that their engines have high DEF usage.
> 
> Example
> 
> ...


Sure if you ignore that the truck was about a week old and there is zero evidence that the tank was filled to begin with, especially if you read down past the first post and see that it is common to deliver them like this.

great example....:screwy:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

ThreadBomber said:


> Basically anyone who takes money from VW and then does this, is a massive hypocrite.


Not saying it is ok to do a DPF delete, and his alleged mpg claims are very much on the high side...

But if you take the money because of decreased value, it doesn't necessarily make you a hypocrite. If you do it because they lied or because they polluted then yeah sure hypocrite.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

More - 



> *EPA Investigating Bosch over VW Diesel Cheater Software*





> A Department of Justice spokesman said they had so far found no evidence of Bosch breaking the law, but admitted the investigation was at an early stage. To bring charges against Bosch, he said, investigators would have to prove it knew Volkswagen was using its technology to cheat the U.S. (and EU) emissions tests.
> 
> While Bosch declined to comment on the investigation, it released a statement in the early stages of the scandal, insisting it only made components to the specifications delivered by automakers. “How these components are calibrated and integrated into complete vehicle systems is the responsibility of each automaker,” Bosch said at the time.
> 
> ...


http://blog.caranddriver.com/epa-investigating-bosch-over-vw-diesel-cheater-software/

So it is for test purposes only but you want 11 million control modules. OK we'll send it over.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

^^^ If Bosch was complicit, then it again points the finger on German culture as the root problem, as Bosch is another huge German company.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

dmorrow said:


> BP spent billions cleaning up the spill before they spent billions on fines and at this point VW hasn't spent billions trying to make this issue right. Once it is proven that this issue can't be fixed then they can move to the next step.
> 
> Putting money into some other cleanup not related to what they did is nothing more than a fine as VW wouldn't actually have to do anything.


Again, I agree that our first reaction to an illegal environmental release should be to direct the person who caused the crime to clean it up.

But in circumstances where the amount spent to clean up the release is well out of proportion to the good that will come from cleaning it, other approaches should be considered. I think we were there with the Deepwater Horizon. Our technology and our willingness to spend money on cleanup simply didn't let us do much with the 4.9 million barrels spilled there, perhaps 4.1 million of those evaporated or were dispersed or dissolved in the water column. BP spent $14 billion, the feds another billion, and in the end they only cleaned up 14% of the oil.

I think we may find ourselves there with these engines. We'll see when we know what fixes are necessary, what they'll accomplish, and how much they'll cost.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Uberhare said:


> I'm honestly not upset at VW or what they did. Hell, I give them some credit for creating a clever way to "pass" the testing while still giving the end user a vehicle that doesn't have performance restrictions.


An interesting perspective. How do you choose which criminals to root for?

"Oh, sure, he murdered that old lady. But he did it in such a clever way, what with the pendulum and the bowling ball and the two hidden springs! Mad props for creativity, murder guy, you're free to go!"



Uberhare said:


> It's a non-safety related problem so it's not a big deal to me.


I guess I always assumed that people who post here ventilate their lungs with earth's atmosphere in hopes of transporting oxygen to their tissue's cells and thereby not die, and would prefer to avoid having their lungs instead deliver ozone throughout their body's cells causing asthma, bronchitis, heart attacks, and other cardiopulmonary problems.

But the universe is a big place, filled with all sorts, and I should expect to see that sort of diversity represented here.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Chilcoot said:


> I guess I always assumed that people who post here ventilate their lungs with earth's atmosphere in hopes of transporting oxygen to their tissue's cells and thereby not die, and would prefer to avoid having their lungs instead deliver ozone to throughout their body cells causing asthma, bronchitis, heart attacks, and other cardiopulmonary problems.
> 
> But the universe is a big place, filled with all sorts, and we should expect so see that represented here.


Have you looked up the largest emitter of NOx by chance?


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

chris86vw said:


> Have you looked up the largest emitter of NOx by chance?


No, I tend to be quite purposeful when I conduct research, helps with the results.


----------



## TCLDarling (Nov 24, 2015)

Believe it or not, I've been following this entire rollercoaster of a thread. :thumbup:

Not sure how I feel yet, I've been seeing a few conflicting thigns in the media.

It seems to me that the V6 engine is a different story than the 4 cylinder. Whereas the 4 cylinder utilized a so-called "AECD" with the sole purpose of trickery on the dyno for certification, the V6 TDI looks to have functional AECD's that weren't fully documented or declared - so Audi claims. 

Many media outlets are putting them in the same bucket. 

https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en...s-environmental-authorities-epa-and-carb-5191



> Audi will revise, document in detail, and resubmit for US approval certain parameters of the engine-management software used in the V6 TDI 3 liter diesel engine. That is the result of the discussions held between a delegation from AUDI AG and the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the California Air Resources Board (CARB). The updated software will be installed as soon as it is approved by the authorities. The three brands Audi, Porsche and Volkswagen are affected. Audi estimates that the related expense will be in the mid-double-digit millions of euros.
> 
> The latest discussions focused on a notice of violation of November 2, in which Audi was informed that AECDs (Auxiliary Emission Control Devices) were not sufficiently described and declared in the application for US type approval. That will now be done with the updated software and the documentation.
> 
> ...


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

So I shouldn't take the free money from VW and spend it on a tune is what you're saying? LOLOLOLOLOL


----------



## iadubber (Feb 1, 2005)

.yuk. said:


> So I shouldn't take the free money from VW and spend it on a tune is what you're saying? LOLOLOLOLOL


That's exactly what I'm doing. If I can scrape enough money by then I'm also going to delete the DPF.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

chris86vw said:


> So is your post, makes you seem like the kind of person that actually would screw people over for a buck too.
> 
> Kind of lame.


So because I'm upset that VW lied to it's customers and seeing people make excuses for it = I'm the kind of person to screw people over for a buck.

Ok buddy.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

PnZrFsT said:


> So because I'm upset that VW lied to it's customers and seeing people make excuses for it = I'm the kind of person to screw people over for a buck.
> 
> Ok buddy.


No because you are in it for the money and not because of the actual problem in regards to the environment. 

It doesn't make you a good person and it certainly doesn't prove that you are better than VW.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Chilcoot said:


> No, I tend to be quite purposeful when I conduct research, helps with the results.


Yet you haven't done any actual research, had you then you'd realize why your previous statement makes no sense. 

So much for your quote a few pages back about real science and math, guess that is only for those times you can't do it yourself.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

File this under "Saw this one coming:"

VW officially delays Phaeton replacement.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

chris86vw said:


> No because you are in it for the money and not because of the actual problem in regards to the environment.
> 
> It doesn't make you a good person and it certainly doesn't prove that you are better than VW.


I don't have to care about the effect to be offended that they willfully misrepresented their product to make a buck. My issue is purely on principle, which I have every right to be angry about.

I haven't said a single thing about being better than anyone so you can **** right off with your armchair analysis of my personality, thankyouverymuch.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

PnZrFsT said:


> I don't have to care about the effect to be offended that they willfully misrepresented their product to make a buck. My issue is purely on principle, which I have every right to be angry about.


Just as I have every right to say that I think this makes you no better than them.

Or you being greedy like them somehow no longer gives anyone their right to an opinion?


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

> chris86vw
> This user is on your Ignore List.


What's that? Sorry dude, can't hear you.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

PnZrFsT said:


> What's that? Sorry dude, can't hear you.


Since you can't read this, you just proved my point.

Ignore list.. way to prove you can have an adult conversation. :thumbup:


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

chris86vw said:


> Since you can't read this, you just proved my point.
> 
> Ignore list.. way to prove you can have an adult conversation. :thumbup:


Last comment I'm reading of yours.

An adult conversation is the last thing you're trying to have. Every one of your posts in reply to me has been nothing but negative opinions about my personality. You're on the block list because you're trolling for a reaction out of me and I'm not going to clutter up this thread even more than I already have by responding to your drivel. How's that for adult? :thumbup:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

PnZrFsT said:


> Last comment I'm reading of yours.
> 
> An adult conversation is the last thing you're trying to have. Every one of your posts in reply to me has been nothing but negative opinions about my personality. You're on the block list because you're trolling for a reaction out of me and I'm not going to clutter up this thread even more than I already have by responding to your drivel. How's that for adult? :thumbup:


It isn't adult at all, again you are stating that you are entitled to your opinion but anyone who has an opinion about your opinion is trolling, ok buddy. It makes you anything but an adult. 

Putting people on an ignore lists proves you are a child, as does your not giving a crap about the environmental impact of the problem and your want only for money.. again which is exactly like VW.


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)




----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> File this under "Saw this one coming:"
> 
> VW officially delays Phaeton replacement.


I hope it's delayed to never. Actually if VW did sell one Phaeton they would make about a million dollars in parts sales.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

Car Problems said:


> I hope it's delayed to never. Actually if VW did sell one Phaeton they would make about a million dollars in parts sales.


HA! Dealerships make more money servicing cars than selling them: Phaeton was just an elaborate way to boost dealership profitability!


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> HA! Dealerships make more money servicing cars than selling them: Phaeton was just an elaborate way to boost dealership profitability!


It's all part of their plan.

give customer dealer only gift card.

Buy back their tdi

Sell them phaeton

Make them use gift card to repair phaeton.

Brilliant!


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Chilcoot said:


> Again, I agree that our first reaction to an illegal environmental release should be to direct the person who caused the crime to clean it up.
> 
> But in circumstances where the amount spent to clean up the release is well out of proportion to the good that will come from cleaning it, other approaches should be considered. I think we were there with the Deepwater Horizon. Our technology and our willingness to spend money on cleanup simply didn't let us do much with the 4.9 million barrels spilled there, perhaps 4.1 million of those evaporated or were dispersed or dissolved in the water column. BP spent $14 billion, the feds another billion, and in the end they only cleaned up 14% of the oil.
> 
> *I think we may find ourselves there with these engines.* We'll see when we know what fixes are necessary, what they'll accomplish, and how much they'll cost.


I already said that if it proves to be unrealistic to fix the problem they can move on to step #2, I just don't see being caught less than two months ago that this would be a quick decision and you thinking it may not be able to be done is really premature.

Also, with the vast majority of cars in Europe, every other company seems to have been meeting the law (or at least none of them have been caught) so on the surface it looks like it might be possible to fix 11 million of the 11.5 million cars.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Uberhare said:


> Companies lie ever day to consumers about all kinds of stuff. VW just happened to get caught.
> 
> 
> I'm honestly not upset at VW or what they did. Hell, I give them some credit for creating a clever way to "pass" the testing while still giving the end user a vehicle that doesn't have performance restrictions. This entire debacle has been blown out of proportion by the media because of the "lying" part. It's a non-safety related problem so it's not a big deal to me.


The "everyone does it" is also probably a common reply when talking to people in jail and you can probably justify just about anything in your head if you compare yourself to the lowest level citizen or company.

Would be interesting to see your response to someone cleverly stealing your car or emptying your bank account, give them credit on being really smart and let it go.


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

chris86vw said:


> It's all part of their plan.
> 
> give customer dealer only gift card.
> 
> ...



:thumbup:


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

http://www.theverge.com/2015/11/23/9787394/volkswagen-diesel-engine-fix-recall-software-update



> Last week, Volkswagen submitted plans to the California Air Resources Board (CARB) for recalling and fixing emissions on its 2-liter diesel cars that have "defeat devices" designed to look clean only when they're undergoing official testing measures; now, VW's Audi subsidiary has filed plans for fixing 3-liter diesels that were more recently caught up in the scandal.
> 
> The plans appear to be quite different, though: while the 3-liter engines can allegedly be brought into compliance using nothing more than a software update, more complex changes will be required on the 2-liter vehicles, necessitating a more difficult, time-consuming, and expensive recall. Neither plan has been approved yet by US regulators, and until they are, all 2- and 3-liter diesels offered by Volkswagen Group brands in the US — which come from VW, Audi, and Porsche — are suspended from sale.
> 
> *News of the plans comes amid rumors that a new global automaker could be pulled into an emissions cheating scandal*, possibly as soon as tomorrow, as reported by Daily Kanban. Though Volkswagen has generally tried to place the blame for its own cheating on a small number of rogue actors inside the company, the incentive to cheat seems to have been strong: engineers were able to accurately program engine software to identify official emissions tests, helping the company advertise stronger fuel economy — a key sales driver — while still meeting requirements.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

...and so it begins:

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/24/renault-diesel-emissions-cheating-report/

Renault implicated in diesel emissions cheating. 



Autoblog said:


> Renault could be the next automaker embroiled in the diesel emissions scandal that has already engulfed Volkswagen. The allegations were put forward by Deutsche Umwelthilfe (DUH), a green lobbying group, which claims that the Renault Espace emits up to 25 times the legal limit. Although the diesel minivan passed existing EU standards, DUH claims the testing allowed Renault to undergo testing at artificially low engine temperatures.


Side note: I find the acronym "DUH" too amusing. _Emissions? DUH!_


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

dmorrow said:


> The "everyone does it" is also probably a common reply when talking to people in jail and you can probably justify just about anything in your head if you compare yourself to the lowest level citizen or company.
> 
> Would be interesting to see your response to someone cleverly stealing your car or emptying your bank account, give them credit on being really smart and let it go.


There is a difference between an established company lying/cheating/stealing etc vs a common street thug doing it.


----------



## BetterByDesign (Sep 7, 2004)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> File this under "Saw this one coming:"
> 
> VW officially delays Phaeton replacement.


Looking foward to it.

Tired of this predicatable drawn out EPA drama.

Europe does not care.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

1.6L and 2.0L fix for Europe:


----------



## jcha (Jun 11, 1999)

Mazda 3s said:


> 1.6L and 2.0L fix for Europe:


Bah, they should've gone with this, much bigger gainzzzz:


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)

Cool. A simple plastic part that customers can easily install for emissions tests and then remove afterwards.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

ClownCar said:


> Cool. A simple plastic part that customers can easily install for emissions tests and then remove afterwards.


It's only for the 1.6L cars and there's still a software flash. That thing isn't going to do **** for ****.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

MXTHOR3 said:


> That thing isn't going to do **** for ****.


seriously this.

a grated piece of plastic in the intake is expected to fix the excessive emissions from the tail pipe?


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Well, yes.

When you design the intake you have to account for how the turbulence in it affects the MAFS readings. Which is hella does. To the point that you can really mess up the air/fuel ratio if you don't get that calibration right. So by putting the flow laminator in there, you allow the MAFSs to read properly.

Remember how people were cutting up nEvaR L0se airboxes? One of the "tricks" was to shorten the snorkel in the airbox. This caused the MAFS to read generally high, so the engine ran richer and you could boost higher.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

atomicalex said:


> Well, yes.


Whatever, I'll stick with my knee slap reaction for now.


----------



## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

atomicalex said:


> Remember how people were cutting up nEvaR L0se airboxes? One of the "tricks" was to shorten the snorkel in the airbox. This caused the MAFS to read generally high, so the engine ran richer and you could boost higher.


:screwy:

Links required here because that honestly does not make sense. Get the MAF to read 100% properly with the use of a velocity stack and tuning your car accordingly will yield the best performance results, not tricking the MAF to dump more fuel into the system so you can turn up a MBC a turn and a half to gain more power. Makes no sense


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

I received a letter from a local attorney on the TDI but it's not a class suit. It's regarding seeking payment or a new car. I wonder if it's worth pursuing as our JSW has 82k on it :laugh:


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

ClownCar said:


> Cool. A simple plastic part that customers can easily install for emissions tests and then remove afterwards.


You act like that's a bad thing.


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)

1985Jetta said:


> You act like that's a bad thing.


Well it seems like an easy fix and also transfers future potential criminality to the vehicle owner. It's a win / win I guess.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

MechEngg said:


> :screwy:
> 
> Links required here because that honestly does not make sense. Get the MAF to read 100% properly with the use of a velocity stack and tuning your car accordingly will yield the best performance results, not tricking the MAF to dump more fuel into the system so you can turn up a MBC a turn and a half to gain more power. Makes no sense


Your opening emoticon was my typical response to those who thought cutting the stack was a good idea. It's not. It never was. But it was a fad and people did it. We are talking MkIV owners here, not the cream of the tuning crop. 

But look at the whole TDI problem - if you are sitting in a shop on a dyno, no buffeting, limited range of throttle angles/intake pressure differentials, and so on. The test will run fine. Go out in the real world, and you have different conditions. Which can be measured and those inputs can be used to trigger various ECU mappings. Forcing flow lamination at the MAFS brings the MAFS reading into line with throttle angle and intake pressure readings. Which could trigger "emissions test mode". If the MAFS reading was fluctuating sufficiently with regard to intake pressure differential and throttle angle (buffeting/turbulent flow), then engage "no emissions mode".

You are focusing on the tuning aspect. I am focusing on the how to know if you are on a dyno aspect.


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

atomicalex said:


> Your opening emoticon was my typical response to those who thought cutting the stack was a good idea. It's not. It never was. But it was a fad and people did it. We are talking MkIV owners here, not the cream of the tuning crop.
> 
> But look at the whole TDI problem - if you are sitting in a shop on a dyno, no buffeting, limited range of throttle angles/intake pressure differentials, and so on. The test will run fine. Go out in the real world, and you have different conditions. Which can be measured and those inputs can be used to trigger various ECU mappings. Forcing flow lamination at the MAFS brings the MAFS reading into line with throttle angle and intake pressure readings. Which could trigger "emissions test mode". If the MAFS reading was fluctuating sufficiently with regard to intake pressure differential and throttle angle (buffeting/turbulent flow), then engage "no emissions mode".
> 
> You are focusing on the tuning aspect. I am focusing on the how to know if you are on a dyno aspect.


Sounds like they could just remove the code that enables the cheat. Run in emissions mode all the time. No need for a plastic part. That's why the 2.0 doesn't get the plastic part.


----------



## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

atomicalex said:


> Your opening emoticon was my typical response to those who thought cutting the stack was a good idea. It's not. It never was. But it was a fad and people did it. We are talking MkIV owners here, not the cream of the tuning crop.
> 
> But look at the whole TDI problem - if you are sitting in a shop on a dyno, no buffeting, limited range of throttle angles/intake pressure differentials, and so on. The test will run fine. Go out in the real world, and you have different conditions. Which can be measured and those inputs can be used to trigger various ECU mappings. Forcing flow lamination at the MAFS brings the MAFS reading into line with throttle angle and intake pressure readings. Which could trigger "emissions test mode". If the MAFS reading was fluctuating sufficiently with regard to intake pressure differential and throttle angle (buffeting/turbulent flow), then engage "no emissions mode".
> 
> You are focusing on the tuning aspect. I am focusing on the how to know if you are on a dyno aspect.


Ok at least we agree that it sounds ridiculous. I was talking 100% about the tuning of the mk4 crowd and the airbox issue that you brought up.


Forcing laminar flow (or aiding in it) through the MAF housing won't trigger emissions testing mode, there is very little predictability in correlation between mass air flow and throttle angle/manifold air pressure as a function of time. And if there was any sort of predictability then you could tune the sh!t out of these cars with only 1 or 2 sensors, not the plethora of sensors that are required to tweak the maps like are in modern cars.

Didn't VW already go through this and give an answer that consisted of steering wheel angle not changing, certain throttle positions at certain times during the test, certain ambient air conditions as well as test initiation temperature and duration to determine if it was an emissions testing regime?


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

Most, or all American cars already have the screen at the MAF. My Silverado
has one, it's actually part of the MAF. So, VWs do not use a screen, but
it has been on American car MAF sensors. Every MAF I have seen already
has the built in screen, with the exception of my TDI.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> ...and so it begins:
> 
> http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/24/renault-diesel-emissions-cheating-report/
> 
> Renault implicated in diesel emissions cheating.


RIP Diesel if true, and extends to other manufacturers.

I for one welcome our new electric overlords.




sent from The Ether


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Sweet. So now I can pick up a slightly used A6 TDI on the super cheap.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

dmorrow said:


> Would be interesting to see your response to someone cleverly stealing your car or emptying your bank account, give them credit on being really smart and let it go.


I fail to see how this relates to what VW did. What VW is accused of doing was not illegal in the criminal sense. Morally or ethically wrong? Sure. Criminally wrong? No. What you mention above is illegal criminal behavior which you suggest I would somehow view as smart or clever. So, you're argument and example is irrelevant to the discussion.


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

Uberhare said:


> I fail to see how this relates to what VW did. What VW is accused of doing was not illegal in the criminal sense. Morally or ethically wrong? Sure. Criminally wrong? No. What you mention above is illegal criminal behavior which you suggest I would somehow view as smart or clever. So, you're argument and example is irrelevant to the discussion.


:facepalm: Uh, yeah, fraud is both an illegal, and therefore criminal, act. It also happens to be ethically wrong. Fraud can carry both criminal as well as civil penalties, and typically in cases of criminal fraud (which is what VW has committed), it's also a felony. So yeah. It's illegal, criminal, unethical, and a felony.

But for all the fanbois here, it's no biggie.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

R Salesman said:


> :facepalm: Uh, yeah, fraud is both an illegal, and therefore criminal, act. It also happens to be ethically wrong. Fraud can carry both criminal as well as civil penalties, and typically in cases of criminal fraud (which is what VW has committed), it's also a felony. So yeah. It's illegal, criminal, unethical, and a felony.
> 
> But for all the fanbois here, it's no biggie.


having actually spent years in my states legislature lobbying fighting the anti-car people, CARB, et al, I can tell you there is MUCH disinformation and money used in driving new law in respect to emissions. from buying the candidates up for reelection because a lobbyist tells them to vote in their favor or loose millions in campaign donations.....

the amount of criminal activity BEFORE the laws are enacted is far worse than the twisted laws on the books used to "manage" vehicle emissions. 

what VW did was wrong and they should pay for their wrongs, but the worst thing they did was get caught.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

R Salesman said:


> :facepalm: Uh, yeah, fraud is both an illegal, and therefore criminal, act. It also happens to be ethically wrong. Fraud can carry both criminal as well as civil penalties, and typically in cases of criminal fraud (which is what VW has committed), it's also a felony. So yeah. It's illegal, criminal, unethical, and a felony.
> 
> But for all the fanboys*, anti-government, anti-EPA, and anti-environment types* here, it's no biggie.


Fixed. Only in their mind can VW commit fraud and it be the fault of *regulation* instead. :screwy:


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

OOOO-A3 said:


> Fixed. Only in their mind can VW commit fraud and it be the fault of *regulation* instead. :screwy:


It IS all VW's fault, but less stringent regulations would be nice.


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

1985Jetta said:


> It IS all VW's fault, but less stringent regulations would be nice.


Yep, clean air laws are totally ridiculous.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

zhenya00 said:


> Yep, clean air laws are totally ridiculous.


because it was vehicles making all that cloudy smog ****, right? nothing else? just vehicles?  point is, there are plenty of other sources of this same pollutant VW diesels emit that are far less regulated, and in much greater quantities. why hit VW so hard?


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

Nice Instagram filter.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

GoHomeBroke said:


> point is, there are plenty of other sources of this same pollutant VW diesels emit that are far less regulated, and in much greater quantities. why hit VW so hard?


Every large corporation gets hit hard when caught intentionally skirting environmental laws. Is this really news to some of you? :facepalm:


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> because it was vehicles making all that cloudy smog ****, right? nothing else? just vehicles?  point is, there are plenty of other sources of this same pollutant VW diesels emit that are far less regulated, and in much greater quantities. why hit VW so hard?


Industry, large marine ships, and power equipment motors are all regulated. What are these unregulated sources?


----------



## Mudbone (Apr 10, 2013)

wannabeeuroTR said:


> Nice Instagram filter.


Exactly. Photo purporting to show old days vs. today has buildings constructed well after the "smog era". BS detected.


----------



## 03GTI4Me (Feb 25, 2003)

Mudbone said:


> Exactly. Photo purporting to show old days vs. today has buildings constructed well after the "smog era". BS detected.


Photoshop aside, nobody can dispute that LA has made a hell of an improvement in its air quality.


----------



## Caruser4 (Apr 15, 2008)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Industry, large marine ships, and power equipment motors are all regulated. What are these unregulated sources?


Cow farts


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Caruser4 said:


> Cow farts


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

zhenya00 said:


> Yep, clean air laws are totally ridiculous.


Winds, humidity and other related weather conditions also play a huge factor on any given day, not to mention the day of the week. These pictures are meaningless


----------



## WannaCorrado (Apr 30, 2000)

caj1 said:


> Winds, humidity and other related weather conditions also play a huge factor on any given day, not to mention the day of the week. These pictures are meaningless


yes, LA never had smog problems, there is no global warming and creationism is an equivalent theory to evolution. Got it. opcorn:


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

caj1 said:


> Winds, humidity and other related weather conditions also play a huge factor on any given day, not to mention the day of the week. These pictures are meaningless


Yeah...go ahead and tell us from the other side of the country what LA was like in the early 80's. Go ahead.


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

1985Jetta said:


> less stringent regulations would be nice.


Nice for what? MORE stringent regulation would be nice - for breathing, for the climate, for the oceans, for human/plant/animal life. 



Mudbone said:


> the "smog era". BS detected.





Caruser4 said:


> Cow farts





caj1 said:


> Winds, humidity and other related weather conditions also play a huge factor on any given day, not to mention the day of the week. These pictures are meaningless



Look, you science-denying doofuses, watch this and learn something.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

1985Jetta said:


> It IS all VW's fault, but less stringent regulations would be nice.


No, I don't believe they would. 

Large corporations are, generally speaking, bastards. I'm glad we have such stringent laws to keep them in check.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

OOOO-A3 said:


> Nice for what? MORE stringent regulation would be nice


I know I wouldn't vote for someone in favor of more stringent regulations. For example, the 54.5 MPG average for 2020. Overkill. Goodbye V8's! :thumbdown:

Speaking from an enthusiast/hobbyist perspective.



Crimping Is Easy said:


> No, I don't believe they would.
> 
> Large corporations are, generally speaking, bastards. I'm glad we have such stringent laws to keep them in check.


Yes, yes they are, but in some ways, it's not good for enthusiasts and hobbyists. 

As I said before - 100% on VAG, but more lenient (even slightly) regulations would be something I'd be in favor of.


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

1985Jetta said:


> I know I wouldn't vote for someone in favor of more stringent regulations. For example, the 54.5 MPG average for 2020. Overkill. Goodbye V8's! :thumbdown:


CAFE numbers are shown here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpo...y#Agreed_standards_by_model_year.2C_2011-2025

Note the difference between CAFE fuel economy and window sticker fuel economy.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

tjl said:


> CAFE numbers are shown here:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpo...y#Agreed_standards_by_model_year.2C_2011-2025
> 
> Note the difference between CAFE fuel economy and window sticker fuel economy.


The best part is how Volkswagen was the ONLY major automaker not to agree to endorse the updated CAFE standards on the basis that they think it's unfair that trucks have an easier standard to comply with than cars. VW really seems to just hate complying with legislation.



> Volkswagen responded to the July 29, 2011 agreement with the following statement: "Volkswagen does not endorse the proposal under discussion. It places an unfairly high burden on passenger cars, while allowing special compliance flexibility for heavier light trucks. Passenger cars would be required to achieve 5% annual improvements, and light trucks 3.5% annual improvements. The largest trucks carry almost no burden for the 2017-2020 timeframe, and are granted numerous ways to mathematically meet targets in the outlying years without significant real-world gains. The proposal encourages manufacturers and customers to shift toward larger, less efficient vehicles, defeating the goal of reduced greenhouse gas emissions."[47] Additionally, Volkswagen has since approached U.S. law makers about lowering their proposal to double fuel efficiency for passenger cars by 2025. Volkswagen at the time claimed that the new plan was unfair, but the company was later revealed to have been systematically cheating emissions and fuel economy tests. As a result, Volkswagen is one of the only major auto manufacturers to not sign the agreement that has led to the current proposal from the Obama administration.[48]


----------



## tacticalbeaver (Apr 27, 2006)

1985Jetta said:


> I know I wouldn't vote for someone in favor of more stringent regulations. For example, the 54.5 MPG average for 2020. Overkill. Goodbye V8's! :thumbdown:


People were saying years ago that CAFE regulations would be the death of V8s, but cars are continuing to get more and more powerful. Economy and everyday cars will continue to become more economical, and that will allow muscle cars to continue to gain power.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

tjl said:


> CAFE numbers are shown here:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpo...y#Agreed_standards_by_model_year.2C_2011-2025
> 
> Note the difference between CAFE fuel economy and window sticker fuel economy.


The difference between the CAFE numbers and window sticker numbers makes me feel relieved. I am just worried about the future of the everyday car enthusiast. 



AZGolf said:


> The best part is how Volkswagen was the ONLY major automaker not to agree to endorse the updated CAFE standards on the basis that they think it's unfair that trucks have an easier standard to comply with than cars. VW really seems to just hate complying with legislation.


As I said, I wouldn't be upset if the legislation was made to be more lenient. Though, VW not agreeing with this legislation and then Dieselgate comes - that's funny.



seftonm said:


> People were saying years ago that CAFE regulations would be the death of V8s, but cars are continuing to get more and more powerful. Economy and everyday cars will continue to become more economical, and that will allow muscle cars to continue to gain power.


I certainly wouldn't mind if this sort of new age muscle car war continued!


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

WannaCorrado said:


> yes, LA never had smog problems, there is no global warming and creationism is an equivalent theory to evolution. Got it. opcorn:


That's not what I said. Cherry pick random days of clear skies and smog free air doesn't mean that's the way it is all the time


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

DerSpiegel said:


> Yeah...go ahead and tell us from the other side of the country what LA was like in the early 80's. Go ahead.


Think harder.. that's not my point


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

I got a sudden urge for a A7 TDI.

Those things are sex.


----------



## Caruser4 (Apr 15, 2008)

OOOO-A3 said:


> Look, you science-denying doofuses, watch this and learn something.


I learned nothing. Also, when exactly did I deny science?


----------



## Iroczgirl (Feb 17, 2007)

1985Jetta said:


> I know I wouldn't vote for someone in favor of more stringent regulations. For example, the 54.5 MPG average for 2020. Overkill. Goodbye V8's! :thumbdown:
> 
> Speaking from an enthusiast/hobbyist perspective.


Anything I own will be grandfathered in...and new cars aren't worth having anyway. :laugh:


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)




----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

1985Jetta said:


> I know I wouldn't vote for someone in favor of more stringent regulations. For example, the 54.5 MPG average for 2020. Overkill. Goodbye V8's! :thumbdown:
> 
> Speaking from an enthusiast/hobbyist perspective.
> 
> ...


I don't think you're considering the details well enough.

If it is sporty cars with high power that you seek you are paranoid. Look at what we have today vs 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago for similar. We live in a golden age now with insanely capable cars... in the midst of CAFE... with better FE than ever. 

It isn't hardly the sports cars that worry the MFRs. Those are relatively small volumes. It's the trucks and SUV variants that they feel the pressure from CAFE. And check out tjl's like regarding the actual numbers. They are still a challenge, but the overreaction is a bit much here. 

These regulations make the society better because if left to the 'free market' we'd have less stability as it is hard to predict the wild swings of fuel prices. Mfrs might piss and moan about CAFE, but they cry about the cycles that historically have brought many to their knees. Companies being brought to their knees risk loss of everything... including the cars you love. 

What sporty car you desire is a matter of your economics far more than regulations for FE. And from the looks of it I doubt America's capitalistic bent will eliminate your abilities for such toys.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

uncleho said:


> I don't think you're considering the details well enough.
> 
> 
> What sporty car you desire is a matter of your economics far more than regulations for FE. And from the looks of it I doubt America's capitalistic bent will eliminate your abilities for such toys.


The only toys 1985Jetta needs to worry about is the government coming for his old rusting (and heavily polluting when running or when polluting when leaking old fluids from rotting tanks and lines) hulks he calls cars and trucks.


----------



## BetterByDesign (Sep 7, 2004)

GoHomeBroke said:


> because it was vehicles making all that cloudy smog ****, right? nothing else? just vehicles?  point is, there are plenty of other sources of this same pollutant VW diesels emit that are far less regulated, and in much greater quantities. why hit VW so hard?


Every regulator government agency has job to do and don't you forget it.

This VW thing probably has the EPA giddy as it will ever be.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

:laugh:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34958282


----------



## BetterByDesign (Sep 7, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> :laugh:
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34958282



Wow that is weak. Who is the female ad agency in the UK responsible for this?


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

With no proper CEO, these ads were able to slip by management.

Not only is that a waste of money, but what a sad state VW is in.opcorn:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

'Oh, no, those weren't official adverts, they were "Eco activists Brandalism" occurring in Paris ahead of the COP21 talks: http://www.cop21.gouv.fr/en


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

BetterByDesign said:


> Wow that is weak. Who is the female ad agency in the UK responsible for this?





someguy123 said:


> With no proper CEO, these ads were able to slip by management.
> 
> Not only is that a waste of money, but what a sad state VW is in.opcorn:


:facepalm:


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

Whoa. 25% sales decrease compared to last November, while others have gone up. 

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34977697


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

CK98Beeetle said:


> Whoa. 25% sales decrease compared to last November, while others have gone up.
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34977697


The article says VW blames the stop-sale for the drop, but the stop sale went into effect September 24-ish or so, which meant all their October sales were during a stop-sale of the 2.0 TDI, which sells in dramatically higher volume than the 3.0. This is borne out by the fact they had 478,000 2.0 TDIs affected by the recall and only 85,000 3.0 TDIs. That's 5.6:1 for the 2.0 TDI.

I think the real reason for the November drop is that the stopped pushing massive loss-inducing incentives at the dealerships. Customers seem to be perfectly happy to buy gasoline VWs when they are being offered at $8000 off MSRP, but it sounds like the money moving under the table to the dealerships stopped at the end of October.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Silly_me said:


> :laugh:
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34958282


anyone else see the potential for VW to sue over this? :laugh:


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

GoHomeBroke said:


> anyone else see the potential for VW to sue over this? :laugh:


Libel maybe  I mean I guess they could also sue over Trademark rights? They are using their logo and slogan and I'm sure it is without VW's consent. Then again, I doubt VW would even consider to do anything since I don't know how much more negative press they can afford :laugh:


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

AZGolf said:


> I think the real reason for the November drop is that the stopped pushing massive loss-inducing incentives at the dealerships. Customers seem to be perfectly happy to buy gasoline VWs when they are being offered at $8000 off MSRP, but it sounds like the money moving under the table to the dealerships stopped at the end of October.


Our 2015 Jetta was totaled out last week after being rear-ended, so I started looking for a replacement. My local dealer has a healthy supply of cars and they stated that October was very strong due to the $2000. Since VW reduced that to $1500 in November their sales have been way off (and these numbers support that). In my opinion the $1500 is nice but it's not a strong motivator. To me it feels like a typical end-of-year special, not an offer to try to keep loyal buyers 'in the brand.' The local dealer even feels that the $2K pushed in people who were 'on the fence' about buying a new car and it simply pushed those who were planning on buying anyway into the dealer sooner thus drying up later sales.


----------



## NoDubJustYet (Mar 25, 2002)

BetterByDesign said:


> Wow that is weak. Who is the female ad agency in the UK responsible for this?


LOL


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

Iroczgirl said:


> ...and new cars aren't worth having anyway. :laugh:


You just might be onto something here.



uncleho said:


> I don't think you're considering the details well enough.
> 
> If it is sporty cars with high power that you seek you are paranoid. Look at what we have today vs 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago for similar. We live in a golden age now with insanely capable cars... in the midst of CAFE... with better FE than ever.
> 
> ...


I'll agree that we definitely live in a golden age, for muscle cars anyway. But, what if we take a more socialistic turn? 



spockcat said:


> The only toys 1985Jetta needs to worry about is the government coming for his old rusting (and heavily polluting when running or when polluting when leaking old fluids from rotting tanks and lines) hulks he calls cars and trucks.


None of my cars leak - I have no idea where you got that from.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

1985Jetta said:


> Only three of my cars run- I have no idea why.


FTFY. :thumbup:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

1985Jetta said:


> I'll agree that we definitely live in a golden age, for muscle cars anyway. But, what if we take a more socialistic turn?


Who is the "we" you speak of? Cars are global and both produced and sold all over the world, including in socialist countries. France, Norway, and China can provide examples of producers and consumers in countries that are much more socialist than America. In fact even Canada achieves the goal of seeing buying trends in a country much more socialist than America. Guess what? Fast & cool cars are popular everywhere that they can afford them.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> France, Norway, and China can provide examples of producers and consumers in countries that are much more socialist than America.


First counties I think of when I think "muscle car"


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> First counties I think of when I think "muscle car"


Muscle cars? Yeah probably not but France has been at the forefront for motorsports for about as long as there have been motorsports. Even in this age they put out incredibly track focused cars like the Renaultsport Megane 275 Trophy-R while they are in a truly socialist period now, with policies like their 75% income tax on the wealthy.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

1985Jetta said:


> None of my cars leak - I have no idea where you got that from.


But the government doesn't know that. They look at old rusting cars (which many of your are) and see hazardous waste site potential.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Well. apparently my local dealer is offering pre-scandal trade in prices on TDI's - so I'll try my luck tomorrow to see if there is any option to get into a new golf wagon and ditch my TDI. 

I'm perfectly fine keeping the TDI, but my commute just went from 75km a day to 10km... and the TDI's don't like the short trips, so moving to a TSI is going to be better anyway. 

Plus, VW Canada should be revealing their hush money credit soon too.


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

The internal combustion engine is ancient technology and I cant wait for it to go the way of the dinosaurs ..(Get it dinosaurs?). But really VW should have put more effort into electric vehicles instead of promoting diesel so much. What happen to that XL1 thing they were driving all over the place? Diesel is a waste of time time to move on from it.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Car Problems said:


> The internal combustion engine is ancient technology and I cant wait for it to go the way of the dinosaurs ..(Get it dinosaurs?). But really VW should have put more effort into electric vehicles instead of promoting diesel so much. *What happen to that XL1 thing they were driving all over the place? *Diesel is a waste of time time to move on from it.


I'm pretty sure the XL1 has a diesel engine


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Car Problems said:


> The internal combustion engine is ancient technology


Didn't the electric car come first?


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

1985Jetta said:


> None of my cars leak - I have no idea where you got that from.


It's hard for cars to leak when they have no fluids in them 


:laugh::wave:eace::beer:


----------



## turbocharged798 (Apr 13, 2010)

Car Problems said:


> The internal combustion engine is ancient technology and I cant wait for it to go the way of the dinosaurs ..(Get it dinosaurs?). But really VW should have put more effort into electric vehicles instead of promoting diesel so much. What happen to that XL1 thing they were driving all over the place? Diesel is a waste of time time to move on from it.


I drive 20K a year and a diesel VW is the only way I can have a car that 1. gets good fuel economy, 2.goes a long distance on a tank of fuel, 3. lasts for a long time.4. Is comfortable to drive for hours on end. Even the best electric car would never meet my needs. Electric is fine for people who live in the city and only drive a few miles here and there, but its never going to work for heavy commuters. 

Diesel actually works in the real world and that is why the industry still relies heavy on it. Electric sounds great on paper and to a bunch of armchair engineers but it is never going to work in many applications.


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

turbocharged798 said:


> I drive 20K a year and a diesel VW is the only way I can have a car that 1. gets good fuel economy, 2.goes a long distance on a tank of fuel, 3. lasts for a long time.4. Is comfortable to drive for hours on end. Even the best electric car would never meet my needs. Electric is fine for people who live in the city and only drive a few miles here and there, but its never going to work for heavy commuters.
> 
> Diesel actually works in the real world and that is why the industry still relies heavy on it. Electric sounds great on paper and to a bunch of armchair engineers but it is never going to work in many applications.



More or less that's where I sit on electric too. Nice if you live in the city, but..

I don't. Most have a range in the 100 to 150km range under ideal conditions - never mind winter. 100kms doesn't cover a basic shopping day where I'm at.

Now if they can bring a reasonable hydrogen solution like Hyundai is experimenting with in Vancouver (BC), something in the 700km range? Sign me up.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Has anyone received their goodwill package yet?


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

turbocharged798 said:


> I drive 20K a year and a diesel VW is the only way I can have a car that 1. gets good fuel economy, 2.goes a long distance on a tank of fuel, 3. lasts for a long time.4. Is comfortable to drive for hours on end. Even the best electric car would never meet my needs. Electric is fine for people who live in the city and only drive a few miles here and there, but its never going to work for heavy commuters.
> 
> Diesel actually works in the real world and that is why the industry still relies heavy on it. Electric sounds great on paper and to a bunch of armchair engineers but it is never going to work in many applications.


Exactly why I decided to go diesel instead of hybrid. If you live and commute in the city, electric is fine. But if you live in rural areas and commute into town often it makes more sense to go diesel.


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

JohnNS said:


> More or less that's where I sit on electric too. Nice if you live in the city, but..
> 
> I don't. Most have a range in the 100 to 150km range under ideal conditions - never mind winter. 100kms doesn't cover a basic shopping day where I'm at.
> 
> Now if they can bring a reasonable hydrogen solution like Hyundai is experimenting with in Vancouver (BC), something in the 700km range? Sign me up.



Your complaints were also used against the automobile when it was first invented. I'm not saying that your complaints are wrong or invalid, just that the technology should get better and assuage your fears. Electric cars just aren't ready for you yet. 

(I'm not saying that you are saying anything different than what I'm saying. I'm just expounding on it. Wait. What?)

Hydrogen is typically looked at as a dead-end technology since we can only make hydrogen by breaking apart natural gas (a fossil fuel) or using electrolysis on water (which is energy intensive). But making a big enough take would take care of the range concerns.


----------



## Tommi (Jul 1, 2005)

Smigelski said:


> Hydrogen is typically looked at as a dead-end technology since we can only make hydrogen by breaking apart natural gas (a fossil fuel) or using electrolysis on water (which is energy intensive). But making a big enough take would take care of the range concerns.


In same answer you allow one new tech to have limitations while not allowing time for another tech to mature :screwy:

e.g. hydrogen may be also produced directly from water using heat ( solar, nuclear ...) I'm not saying it is happening soon (or ever) but pouring equal amount money on alternatives to battery tech...

In reality it all depends on politics ( aka subventions)


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

Tommi said:


> In same answer you allow one new tech to have limitations while not allowing time for another tech to mature :screwy:
> 
> e.g. hydrogen may be also produced directly from water using heat ( solar, nuclear ...) I'm not saying it is happening soon (or ever) but pouring equal amount money on alternatives to battery tech...


I simply didn't know High Temperature Electrolysis was a thing. I read up on it a bit and it seems intriguing :thumbup:


----------



## flubber (Sep 12, 2005)

Uberhare said:


> Exactly why I decided to go diesel instead of hybrid. If you live and commute in the city, electric is fine. But if you live in rural areas and commute into town often it makes more sense to go diesel.


The other thing I like about diesel engines is that it's possible to stop using petroleum for fuel entirely using renewable fuels. My current favorite is Propel Diesel HPR, which meets US transportation diesel standards and is actually being sold to consumers in pilot programs in certain areas (including mine). Note that this is not biodiesel, though it uses similar biomass as input; it is approved for use in VWs and other diesel engines, and usually costs *less* than petroleum diesel in my area. At the very least, this seems like a good transitional fuel.


----------



## jcha (Jun 11, 1999)

aj4066 said:


> Has anyone received their goodwill package yet?


Not yet. Monday will be four weeks since I applied for it.


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

Smigelski said:


> Your complaints were also used against the automobile when it was first invented. I'm not saying that your complaints are wrong or invalid, just that the technology should get better and assuage your fears. Electric cars just aren't ready for you yet.
> 
> (I'm not saying that you are saying anything different than what I'm saying. I'm just expounding on it. Wait. What?)
> 
> Hydrogen is typically looked at as a dead-end technology since we can only make hydrogen by breaking apart natural gas (a fossil fuel) or using electrolysis on water (which is energy intensive). But making a big enough take would take care of the range concerns.



Oh absolutely. It's a *now* problem, not a future problem  Next car likely won't be electric since we plan to get something this coming year. After that? Who knows.  The Lithium-air breakthrough (Cambridge) is pretty interesting.

Also, who knows what Hydrogen breakthroughs will come. Virginia Tech had one earlier this year: http://phys.org/news/2015-04-discovery-breakthrough-hydrogen-cars.html

Interesting times, regardless


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

flubber said:


> The other thing I like about diesel engines is that it's possible to stop using petroleum for fuel entirely using renewable fuels. My current favorite is Propel Diesel HPR, which meets US transportation diesel standards and is actually being sold to consumers in pilot programs in certain areas (including mine). Note that this is not biodiesel, though it uses similar biomass as input; it is approved for use in VWs and other diesel engines, and usually costs *less* than petroleum diesel in my area. At the very least, this seems like a good transitional fuel.


Renewable liquid fuels are a mirage. They cannot be produced on the scale that fuel is consumed in this world. I've seen the math and it never scales to support current usage, much less year 2100 usage. Electricity is different; that we have the ability to continue to ramp up although it depends if you consider nuclear a long term solution or not. In theory it can provide 1 to 10 thousand more years of pollution-free power, at least as long as you don't do anything stupid like building in an earthquake zone or on an ocean shore.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> Has anyone received their goodwill package yet?


Nope. Been about 2.5 weeks since I applied for mine.


----------



## flubber (Sep 12, 2005)

AZGolf said:


> Renewable liquid fuels are a mirage. They cannot be produced on the scale that fuel is consumed in this world. I've seen the math and it never scales to support current usage, much less year 2100 usage.


I didn't suggest it was a long term solution; I indicated pretty much the opposite. I said with a diesel vehicle I personally can be off of petroleum based fuel right now, today, literally, not theoretically. I can't do that with a hybrid or electric vehicle (for electric, largely because I currently have no way to charge an electric vehicle at work or at home). Similarly, the poster I responded to can't use current electric vehicles because of range issues, but could use this fuel. Propel themselves are not particularly targeting passenger cars, but truckers, who also will have to go through a significant transition period to new technologies. And the long-term market for the NEXBTL fuel base Propel is using is seen as being regions with no or unreliable electric grids.

So it's not a mirage, it's a partial solution to a very large problem. There's a lot of ground between perfect and useless.


----------



## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

flubber said:


> I didn't suggest it was a long term solution; I indicated pretty much the opposite. I said with a diesel vehicle I personally can be off of petroleum based fuel right now, today, literally, not theoretically. I can't do that with a hybrid or electric vehicle (for electric, largely because I currently have no way to charge an electric vehicle at work or at home). Similarly, the poster I responded to can't use current electric vehicles because of range issues, but could use this fuel. Propel themselves are not particularly targeting passenger cars, but truckers, who also will have to go through a significant transition period to new technologies. And the long-term market for the NEXBTL fuel base Propel is using is seen as being regions with no or unreliable electric grids.
> 
> So it's not a mirage, it's a partial solution to a very large problem. There's a lot of ground between perfect and useless.


 That doesn't exactly make sense as diesel is a petroleum based fuel as well


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

71DubBugBug said:


> That doesn't exactly make sense as diesel is a petroleum based fuel as well


The Propel stuff he was talking about isn't petroleum based. More like french fry oil and biomass stuff: http://dieselhpr.com/learn-more


----------



## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

spockcat said:


> The Propel stuff he was talking about isn't petroleum based. More like french fry oil and biomass stuff: http://dieselhpr.com/learn-more


interesting, my understanding was the VW was just biting the bullet and covering repairs in states that the majority of diesel was b20 
if you are still inputing the same biomass to make it, it will continue to gum up the fueling system?


----------



## Oval Baja (Feb 21, 2007)

Silly_me said:


> Didn't the electric car come first?


Steam (external combustion) was first, then electric.


----------



## cameron2pt5 (Oct 19, 2006)

71DubBugBug said:


> interesting, my understanding was the VW was just biting the bullet and covering repairs in states that the majority of diesel was b20
> if you are still inputing the same biomass to make it, it will continue to gum up the fueling system?


No, the diesel HPR is based on the NEXTBL system and is made in a refinery like petroleum. It isn't a fatty methyl ester and has no oxygen in the compound. It is chemically indistinguishable from ULSD, thus no performance issues.


----------



## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

cameron2pt5 said:


> No, the diesel HPR is based on the NEXTBL system and is made in a refinery like petroleum. It isn't a fatty methyl ester and has no oxygen in the compound. It is chemically indistinguishable from ULSD, thus no performance issues.


that sounds promising, going to read up on that


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

Silly_me said:


> Didn't the electric car come first?


It did but it was hardly used. So technically it is "new" because it hasn't been whored out over the span of 100 years.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Car Problems said:


> It did but it was hardly used.


It was king of the heap until, much like Video to the Radio Star, ICE arrived and did everything better. In fact, the EV suffered the same maladies back then as it does today, convenience, cost, and range. This is history rewinding itself, EVs rising up to see if they can once again be the choice of transport, doing battle with the usurper ICE cars (though this time they have global warming fighting alongside them, though that is not the point of this thread, these diesels weren't spewing greenhouse gasses illegally).


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

Oval Baja said:


> Steam (external combustion) was first, then electric.


FWIW... up until the Model T showed up, the market was pretty evenly split 3 ways between gasoline, electric, and steam.

Ref. this week's episode of Jay Leno's Garage


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Car Problems said:


> It did but it was hardly used. So technically it is "new" because it hasn't been whored out over the span of 100 years.


Nobody cared about air pollution or sustainable oil sources back when gasoline cars rose to power. The notion of seeing gasoline be the cause of funding government oppression in Russia, Venezuela and the middle east and indirectly fund terrorism in the world couldn't have been fathomed by even the wildest dreamers. Anybody who's played civilization or SimCity is familiar with starting off with cheap, dirty infrastructure and moving towards cleaner, more sustainable energy as your society matures. It really does work that way in real life. ICE vehicles will eventually have to go away for the same reason we abandon anything else that isn't sustainable or that has major negative health impacts to society.


----------



## flubber (Sep 12, 2005)

Ulrich Hackenberg, who is one of the executives suspended in the wake of the diesel emissions scandal, has now resigned.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/05/b...ver-volkswagen-emissions-scandal-resigns.html


> The executive, Ulrich Hackenberg, 65, a member of the Audi management board responsible for technical development, was one of eight executives suspended after Volkswagen admitted in September to programming cars to evade clean air rules. But he is the first of those eight to resign.
> 
> Besides his post at Audi, Mr. Hackenberg also had responsibilities for the Volkswagen group as a whole, and he was one of the company’s most prominent executives in developing the technology that went into Volkswagen vehicles.
> 
> ...





> Mr. Hackenberg will be replaced at Audi by Stefan Knirsch, 49, who has been Audi’s head of powertrain operations. Powertrain refers to the engines, transmissions and other components that propel vehicles.
> 
> From 2007 to 2013, Mr. Hackenberg was responsible for technical development of cars under the Volkswagen brand. That is also the period during which Volkswagen was developing and marketing the diesel engines that contained illegal software.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

The people responsible for sacking the people who have just been sacked have been sacked.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> The people responsible for sacking the people who have just been sacked have been sacked.


and theyll have to buy themselves some beach houses and ski lodges to get over this unfortunate early retirement


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> The people responsible for sacking the people who have just been sacked have been sacked.


That's hilarious. I don't care what anybody says about you. I like the cut of your jib!

VW ready to sell assets should loan repayment falter: sources
Read more at Reuters http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKBN0TM1BA20151204#56IF0UruWUqPR3CE.99



> Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) has told banks supplying a 20 billion euro ($21.1 billion) credit line that it would sell assets if it finds no other way of repaying the one-year loan, two people familiar with the matter said.
> 
> Europe's largest carmaker is under pressure to strengthen its finances as it is expected to have to pay out tens of billions of euros to cover fines, lawsuits and vehicle refits after it admitted to cheating U.S. diesel emissions tests and falsifying carbon dioxide emissions.
> 
> ...


----------



## MechEngg (Jan 13, 2009)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> The people responsible for sacking the people who have just been sacked have been sacked.


:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Please continue with the rest of this thread in a completely different fashion and at any expense :thumbup:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

thegoose said:


> VW ready to sell assets should loan repayment falter: sources
> Read more at Reuters http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKBN0TM1BA20151204#56IF0UruWUqPR3CE.99


Anybody want to get a kickstarter/group buy together to take Ducati off their hands?


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

AZGolf said:


> Anybody want to get a kickstarter/group buy together to take Ducati off their hands?


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

AZGolf said:


> Anybody want to get a kickstarter/group buy together to take Ducati off their hands?


My avatar indicates a yes. :thumbup:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> The people responsible for sacking the people who have just been sacked have been sacked.


You have made my morning! :laugh: :beer:




MechEngg said:


> :laugh::laugh::laugh:
> 
> Please continue with the rest of this thread in a completely different fashion and at any expense :thumbup:


5000 Mexican whooping llamas...


----------



## BeBop! (Jun 18, 2009)

flubber said:


> Ulrich Hackenberg, who is one of the executives suspended in the wake of the diesel emissions scandal, has now resigned.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/05/b...ver-volkswagen-emissions-scandal-resigns.html


Would have been interesting to know more details why he resigned. I remember watching several press events where he appeared to promote the cars that he worked on. Ulrich was the face of Audi for technical and some media aspects.


----------



## BetterByDesign (Sep 7, 2004)

Cost cutting continues. Carry on.


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)




----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Cases to be heard in CA:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-suits-idUSKBN0TR2SF20151208


----------



## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Cases to be heard in CA:
> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-suits-idUSKBN0TR2SF20151208


VW is going to feel the pain.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Cases to be heard in CA:


In California? No way!



article said:


> a case in Montana that says owners of VW vehicles should not be required to make payments on current loans.


----------



## flubber (Sep 12, 2005)

Some good news for a change:

http://fortune.com/2015/12/09/volkswagen-doesnt-have-a-co2-problem-after-all/


> VW said in a statement that its investigations had uncovered “no unlawful change to the stated fuel consumption and CO2 figures…to date,” and added that it will only need to make small adjustments to its catalogue of marketing materials, affecting “only a small number of the model variants.”
> 
> “Against this background, the negative impact on earnings of €2 billion ($2.2 billion) that was originally expected has not been confirmed,” VW summed up.
> 
> ...


----------



## KARMANN_20V (May 25, 2005)

flubber said:


> Some good news for a change:


We don't need those!


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Cases to be heard in CA:
> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-suits-idUSKBN0TR2SF20151208


Pepper your angus, VW.


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

They have so much money it wont matter in the long run. Sure they could sell a brand or two to pay the fines off but still it wont run the company into the ground. They will pay these money grubbers off and then move on and everyone will forget and jump on the next scandal.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

:facepalm::screwy: civil lawsuits. They only people who will profit from the lawsuit are the lawyers.

All this over emissions? Seems like a really silly reason to go lynch mob on VW. If it was a safety issue...sure. But not for emissions.

I'd still like to know what the ramifications will be if I decide not to have the recall fix done.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

Uberhare said:


> If it was a safety issue...sure. But not for emissions.


Well, emissions can cause various cancers, respiratory diseases, climate change, etc. So...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Well, emissions can cause various cancers, respiratory diseases, climate change, etc. So...


The kicker here would be if Uberhare supports climate change legislation but then denies that NOx and smog have any negative impact on life on Earth. It's possibly he opposes both climate change legislation as well as pollution controls. Thing is, he should be against all safety standards too, since safety standards don't mean anything if the idea is to kill the whole planet via unlimited smog & co2.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

AZGolf said:


> The kicker here would be if Uberhare supports climate change legislation but then denies that NOx and smog have any negative impact on life on Earth. It's possibly he opposes both climate change legislation as well as pollution controls. Thing is, he should be against all safety standards too, since safety standards don't mean anything if the idea is to kill the whole planet via unlimited smog & co2.


Even I don't deny climate change. Most certainly is man made, and I understand that there was a summit in Paris about this last week or so?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Well, emissions can cause various cancers, respiratory diseases, climate change, etc. So...


So..........what? Even the _scientific_ numbers aren't plausible enough to connect the VW diesels to any premature deaths (half a million cars spread out across the nation). Civil suits regarding a vehicle that snookered a Federal emissions standard yet caused no damages to the owner? :facepalm: 

Also, nox is not a greenhouse gas.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

Silly_me said:


> So..........what? Even the _scientific_ numbers aren't plausible enough to connect the VW diesels to any premature deaths (half a million cars spread out across the nation). Civil suits regarding a vehicle that snookered a Federal emissions standard yet caused no damages to the owner? :facepalm:
> 
> Also, nox is not a greenhouse gas.


VW said "The car can do this," when the car cannot, in fact, do that. That's not right, and they absolutely should be put in their place by consumers for doing so. And when/if the owners get their cars fixed to comply with emissions, the mileage won't be as good as it was before, costing them money. 

And I was replying to the statement that emissions in general (not specifically nox) are not a safety/health issue.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> VW said "The car can do this," when the car cannot, in fact, do that. That's not right, and they absolutely should be put in their place by consumers for doing so. And when/if the owners get their cars fixed to comply with emissions, the mileage won't be as good as it was before, costing them money.
> 
> And I was replying to the statement that emissions in general (not specifically nox) are not a safety/health issue.


See your problem is you're responding to a dumdum. We've been over this with him enough times that many people (myself included) just blocked him rather than continue pointing out facts only to have him come back with "oh yeah, well I don't care"

Diminished value, unable to trade in your car for prescandal prices, fraudulently inducing you to buy with made up claims they knew were made up. nah none of those things matter. Just save your breath. :facepalm:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> VW said "The car can do this,"


The only area in which VW said 'the car can do this' is where the EPA said 'the car can do this' in the smog production on the window sticker.



Crimping Is Easy said:


> And when/if the owners get their cars fixed to comply with emissions, the mileage won't be as good as it was before, costing them money.


Does your crystal ball also show you that those diminished mpg will be below the advertised numbers?



vwwtchr said:


> See your problem is you're responding to a dumdum.


Poopyface!



vwwtchr said:


> Diminished value, unable to trade in your car for prescandal prices,


Knee jerk reactionary fiscal conditions are hardly statute for such claims.



vwwtchr said:


> fraudulently inducing you to buy with made up claims they knew were made up.


What claims were made up? "Clean Diesel" can be argued easily


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

Silly_me said:


> The only area in which VW said 'the car can do this' is where the EPA said 'the car can do this' in the smog production on the window sticker.


And in dozens of 'Clean Diesel' ads.



vwwtchr said:


> See your problem is you're responding to a dumdum. We've been over this with him enough times that many people (myself included) just blocked him rather than continue pointing out facts only to have him come back with "oh yeah, well I don't care".


I haven't been following this thread too closely, so I wasn't up on who the turkeys were. Done with him now, doe.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> I haven't been following this thread too closely, so I wasn't up on who the turkeys were. Done with him now, doe.


No wait, I want to hear how an advertising slogan is grounds for a lawsuit, I have a vested interest in this as my wife's Lexus surely isn't anywhere near a relentless pursuit of perfection. Oh, waitaminute..... "_doe_" that's millennial speak :sly: no wonder you are in agreement with the lawyer :laugh:


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

Silly_me said:


> No wait, I want to hear how an advertising slogan is grounds for a lawsuit, I have a vested interest in this as my wife's Lexus surely isn't anywhere near a relentless pursuit of perfection. Oh, waitaminute..... "_doe_" that's millennial speak :sly: no wonder you are in agreement with the lawyer :laugh:


In case of VW, it was not only an advertising slogan. I kept the window sticker of my TDI. It clearly states 2.0L 140HP, 236 lbs-ft-torque in-line 4 cyclinder *TDI clean diesel engine*
Hence, it was VW's specification.


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

Jack-DE said:


> In case of VW, it was not only an advertising slogan. I kept the window sticker of my TDI. It clearly states 2.0L 140HP, 236 lbs-ft-torque in-line 4 cyclinder *TDI clean diesel engine*
> Hence, it was VW's specification.


If you really think that there is such thing as a clean internal combustion engine, you have my pity. :screwy:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

J-Tim said:


> If you really think that there is such thing as a clean internal combustion engine, you have my pity. :screwy:


In relative terms, the ad should read "TDI clean*er* diesel engine". It certainly is more clean than those produced 10 years earlier.


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

spockcat said:


> In relative terms, the ad should read "TDI clean*er* diesel engine". It certainly is more clean than those produced 10 years earlier.


In terms of environmental impact, which includes digging fossils from under the ground, it's hardly any cleaner.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

J-Tim said:


> If you really think that there is such thing as a clean internal combustion engine, you have my pity. :screwy:


What I think or not think is not important. I am just stating what VW wrote on the Window Sticker which is essentially outlining the specs of the car.


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

Jack-DE said:


> What I think or not think is not important. I am just stating what VW wrote on the Window Sticker which is essentially outlining the specs of the car.


What they write on a window sticker is no different to badges that say "Blue Efficiency", or "Bluetec", or "Sky-whatever". Do you believe that drivel too ?

Look, you either accept that what you buy is a 4-wheeled box for your own convenience and to hell with the environment, or you don't, in which case you use a far more efficient mode of transport, such as a pushbike.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Jack-DE said:


> I am just stating what VW wrote on the Window Sticker which is essentially outlining the specs of the car.


They use to write fahrvergnügen on the sticker, that was until BMW sued them during the Ultimate Driving Machine Vs Pleasure in Driving smackdown of 1995. Afterwards, on the road of life, there were drivers and there were passengers. Oddly enough the new catch phrase was so benign that many people thought it was a gay rights slogan, coincidentally sales of the New Beetle skyrocketed.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

silly_me said:


> oddly enough the new catch phrase was so benign that many people thought it was a gay rights slogan, coincidentally sales of the new beetle skyrocketed.


COMEDY
O
M
E
D
Y

penis penis penis fart lol penis fart u dumb man lolololololololol fart fart mcnuggetz


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> COMEDY
> O
> M
> E
> ...


NO. I called you a millennial, I know that is your kryptonite I expect more of a rant from you! wiener wiener perkolater young whippersnapper prolly wear plaid with a beard dangnub hipster like foo


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

J-Tim said:


> What they write on a window sticker is no different to badges that say "Blue Efficiency", or "Bluetec", or "Sky-whatever". Do you believe that drivel too ?
> 
> Look, you either accept that what you buy is a 4-wheeled box for your own convenience and to hell with the environment, or you don't, in which case you use a far more efficient mode of transport, such as a pushbike.


The United States government says you are wrong, and that it does matter.


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> The United States government says you are wrong, and that it does matter.


Did they issue any warrants on Bluetec ? Obviously, that's misleading.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

J-Tim said:


> Did they issue any warrants on Bluetec ? Obviously, that's misleading.


No, because Bluetec doesn't mean anything in an advertisement. CLEAN means something. VW marketed their cars as clean diesel in their ads. The word clean means something and Bluetec doesn't. VW has run their _entire marketing campaign_ on the premise that the TDI has clean exhaust:






The *entire commercial* is about the exhaust being clean and there's 50 more ads like it that have aired over the years. They've been doing this ever since they launched their first Tier 2, Bin 5 TDI, which by the way isn't even very clean compared to genuinely clean cars like the Prius way down in Bin 2 or electric cars in Bin 1. Still, the point is that for 7 years all the marketing of these cars is with regards to the exhaust being clean and it turns out the one thing they sell these cars based on is a lie.


----------



## firstorbit84 (Feb 25, 2006)

Silly_me said:


> Also, nox is not a greenhouse gas.


Can we please respect a few facts in here? 

N2O, which is a NOx, is a GHG, and it has 300x greater global warming potential compared to CO2.

 http://dwb.unl.edu/teacher/nsf/c09/c09links/www.casahome.org/nitrogen.htm 
 http://www3.epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/gases/n2o.html


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> CLEAN means something


Yes, it means no black smoke coming out the back like the diesels of yore. That was/is the American perception of diesels, that is the stigma VW was trying to overcome. They didn't say _Non-polluting Diesel!_ let us put our moth where our tailpipe is :laugh:

Now, if they said _Green Diesel_ I'd say sue them, sue them hard  we all know green means environment, and nobody better lie about that


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

Silly_me said:


> They didn't say _Non-polluting Diesel!_


This.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> The *entire commercial* is about the exhaust being clean and there's 50 more ads like it that have aired over the years. They've been doing this ever since they launched their first Tier 2, Bin 5 TDI, which by the way* isn't even very clean compared to genuinely clean cars like the Prius way down in Bin 2 or electric cars in Bin 1.* Still, the point is that for 7 years all the marketing of these cars is with regards to the exhaust being clean and it turns out the one thing they sell these cars based on is a lie.


The ad doesn't say clean car. It says clean diesel. So it isn't making a comparison to other cars. It is making a comparison to other diesels. And other diesels were diesels of the past since there were no other diesel cars on the market in the USA at the time. I think even with the defeat device, aren't these cars cleaner than say a 2006 VW TDI?


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

spockcat said:


> The ad doesn't say clean car. It says clean diesel. So it isn't making a comparison to other cars. It is making a comparison to other diesels. And other diesels were diesels of the past since there were no other diesel cars on the market in the USA at the time. I think even with the defeat device, aren't these cars cleaner than say a 2006 VW TDI?


"Clean diesel" was used by all diesel engine manufacturers that met the new Tier 2 Bin 5 regs, which for the first time, made diesel and gasoline emission requirement equal. These VW diesels were not "Clean Diesels" by definition. End of story.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

spockcat said:


> The ad doesn't say clean car. It says clean diesel. So it isn't making a comparison to other cars. It is making a comparison to other diesels. And other diesels were diesels of the past since there were no other diesel cars on the market in the USA at the time. I think even with the defeat device, aren't these cars cleaner than say a 2006 VW TDI?


First off, again, the FTC has an open investigation because they could see damn well that the ads are saying in plain language that these cars are supposed to have clean exhaust. Look at the video I posted: the lady holds her white scarf up to the tailpipe, then holds it up showing it is clean as a visual demonstration that the exhaust emissions of the "clean diesel" are clean. Everybody on planet Earth except a few of you trolls can see this as plain as day.

As for comparison to 2006, actually the 2006 would likely have higher CO, but lower NOx emissions than a 2009+ model. That's the tradeoff VW made. They tuned the cars to run for lower CO, which increases NOx emissions, but then claimed they would use the NOx trap to capture and re-treat the NOx to eliminate that too. They simply lied about the NOx trap. So the 2009+ models have the much lower CO (which is nice) but far higher NOx than the older diesel cars. So better in one category, but much worse in another. The point however is that the 2006 models were legal, and the 2009+ models are illegal. That matters.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Hajduk said:


> "Clean diesel" was used by all diesel engine manufacturers that met the new Tier 2 Bin 5 regs, which for the first time, made diesel and gasoline emission requirement equal. These VW diesels were not "Clean Diesels" by definition. End of story.





AZGolf said:


> First off, again, the FTC has an open investigation because they could see damn well that the ads are saying in plain language that these cars are supposed to have clean exhaust. Look at the video I posted: the lady holds her white scarf up to the tailpipe, then holds it up showing it is clean as a visual demonstration that the exhaust emissions of the "clean diesel" are clean. Everybody on planet Earth except a few of you trolls can see this as plain as day.
> 
> As for comparison to 2006, actually the 2006 would likely have higher CO, but lower NOx emissions than a 2009+ model. That's the tradeoff VW made. They tuned the cars to run for lower CO, which increases NOx emissions, but then claimed they would use the NOx trap to capture and re-treat the NOx to eliminate that too. They simply lied about the NOx trap. So the 2009+ models have the much lower CO (which is nice) but far higher NOx than the older diesel cars. So better in one category, but much worse in another. The point however is that the 2006 models were legal, and the 2009+ models are illegal. That matters.


Not saying that VW didn't cheat or should be held accountable. Just saying that the ads as I saw them referred to these new diesels as compared to old diesels. You just didn't get the same amount of black soot from them which makes them appear "clean". That in my mind is what they were selling with the ads. Not that they were cleaner or as clean as any other new vehicle on the road.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

AZGolf said:


> First off, again, the FTC has an open investigation because they could see damn well that the ads are saying in plain language that these cars are supposed to have clean exhaust. Look at the video I posted: the lady holds her white scarf up to the tailpipe, then holds it up showing it is clean as a visual demonstration that the exhaust emissions of the "clean diesel" are clean. Everybody on planet Earth except a few of you trolls can see this as plain as day.
> 
> As for comparison to 2006, actually the 2006 would likely have higher CO, but lower NOx emissions than a 2009+ model. That's the tradeoff VW made. They tuned the cars to run for lower CO, which increases NOx emissions, but then claimed they would use the NOx trap to capture and re-treat the NOx to eliminate that too. They simply lied about the NOx trap. So the 2009+ models have the much lower CO (which is nice) but far higher NOx than the older diesel cars. So better in one category, but much worse in another. The point however is that the 2006 models were legal, and the 2009+ models are illegal. That matters.


Maybe you're just crusading against the downfall of VW. Diesels of old clearly emitted black smoke out of the tailpipe. These cars did not do that so maybe holding a white scarf up to the tailpipe and showing there isn't any soot on the scarf is implying clean. But no, that would be too logical and would go against everything.

The clean diesel could also apply to CO, where in the ad or in the pamphlets did VW specifically mention clean diesel meant less NOx. And just because the FTC opened an investigation, does not mean anything will come out of it. Of course they're going to investigate, why wouldn't they. 

VW should and will be punished with fines not just from the US but also from Europe. Their sales will continue to fall and that is also apart of their punishment. But until the fix (whenever it happens) actually results in less ADVERTISED HP/TQ and produces worse MPG that was ADVERTISED, owners are really grasping at straws at this point looking for a quick dollar. They could maybe get some money due to resale value but resale value is never guaranteed. I should be able to sue Audi because their old reliability issues have created a bad perception of the brand hurting resale. They owe me money.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

noatonement said:


> I should be able to sue Audi because their old reliability issues have created a bad perception of the brand hurting resale. They owe me money.


The difference here is the action that caused the perception. Audi's reliability issues weren't tied to willful negligence and circumvention of laws/standards. The current emissions scandal *is*.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> Look at the video I posted: the lady holds her white scarf up to the tailpipe, then holds it up showing it is clean as a visual demonstration that the exhaust emissions of the "clean diesel" are clean.


Little known fact, that is actually the official EPA emission standards test.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Silly_me said:


> Little known fact, that is actually the official EPA emission standards test.


VW cheated. They used a black scarf and passed the test because no one could see any change.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

firstorbit84 said:


> Can we please respect a few facts in here?
> 
> N2O, which is a NOx, is a GHG, and it has 300x greater global warming potential compared to CO2.
> 
> ...


These are not facts. These are statistics based on limited studies and research. Nitrogen Oxides are a gas is fact. Whether or not these gases cause damage or increase the temperature of the planet is up to debate and interpretation. It just so happens the EPA and other groups make the leap from theory to fact, which only confuses the discussion.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> Yes, it means no black smoke coming out the back like the diesels of yore.


no, clearly it was a NOX detection scarf!!


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Here is the story from the front page of today's New York Times titled "VW Says Emissions Cheating Was Not a One-Time Error."

A key excerpt:

_The wrongdoing began in 2005, Volkswagen said, when the company decided to make diesel cars the focus of its United States marketing. Volkswagen saw diesel, which it promoted as offering superior fuel economy and acceleration, as a way to set itself apart from competitors.

In the years that preceded a marketing push that began with the 2009 model year, there was an intense internal debate about what kind of emissions technology to use, according to a former executive who was involved and asked not to be identified because he did not want to offend Volkswagen._


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

firstorbit84 said:


> Can we please respect a few facts in here?
> 
> N2O, which is a NOx, is a GHG, and it has 300x greater global warming potential compared to CO2.
> 
> ...


Straight from Wikipedia, N2O is NOT NOx. NOx refers to NO and NO2 (nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide). That is not N2O, (nitrous oxide).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx

"NOx should not be confused with nitrous oxide (N2O), which is a greenhouse gas and has many uses as an oxidizer, an anesthetic, and a food additive."


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

J-Tim said:


> What they write on a window sticker is no different to badges that say "Blue Efficiency", or "Bluetec", or "Sky-whatever". Do you believe that drivel too ?
> 
> Look, you either accept that what you buy is a 4-wheeled box for your own convenience and to hell with the environment, or you don't, in which case you use a far more efficient mode of transport, such as a pushbike.


Let me repeat, this is in the *specifications section* of the sticker, not the ad or badge part:

2.0L 140HP, 236 lbs-ft-torque in-line 4 cyclinder TDI clean diesel engine


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

Silly_me said:


> They use to write fahrvergnügen on the sticker, that was until BMW sued them during the Ultimate Driving Machine Vs Pleasure in Driving smackdown of 1995.


OK, let me repeat again then:

This is in the *specifications section* of the sticker, not the ad or badge part:

2.0L 140HP, 236 lbs-ft-torque in-line 4 cyclinder TDI clean diesel engine


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

Silly_me said:


> Yes, it means no black smoke coming out the back like the diesels of yore. That was/is the American perception of diesels, that is the stigma VW was trying to overcome. They didn't say _Non-polluting Diesel!_ let us put our moth where our tailpipe is :laugh:
> 
> Now, if they said _Green Diesel_ I'd say sue them, sue them hard  we all know green means environment, and nobody better lie about that


Wasn't VW portraying the car as green with all the green leaves etc. ?


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

Jack-DE said:


> Wasn't VW portraying the car as green with all the green leaves etc. ?


Is "DIE" in that picture an omen? :what:


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

Lwize said:


> Is "DIE" in that picture an omen? :what:


Well it extends down to Diesel but towards the ground. Not a good sign


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Jack-DE said:


> OK, let me repeat again then:
> 
> This is in the *specifications section* of the sticker, not the ad or badge part:
> 
> 2.0L 140HP, 236 lbs-ft-torque in-line 4 cyclinder TDI clean diesel engine


you do realize there is a more damming portion of the sticker than fluff advertising..........


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> "NOx should not be confused with nitrous oxide (N2O), which is a greenhouse gas and has many uses as an oxidizer, an anesthetic, and a food additive."


That confusion was squashed pretty early on in this thread, but we have to let the johnny come lately's have their say :laugh:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Jack-DE said:


> Wasn't VW portraying the car as green with all the green leaves etc. ?


And what are the CO2 emissions? 

The world was and still is focusing heavily on carbon emissions, the TDIs are clean in that regards I believe they even mentioned that specifically. They were also visually clean as portrayed in the commercial recently linked.


I don't believe a single person in this thread bought a car wondering about NOX emissions, heck people clearly still don't even understand it. They weren't marketing a part of emissions that no one understands or were talking about.

Did they cheat and lie yes, do I think the "clean" they referred to meant anything other than what they directly stated such as carbon and the visual emissions, nope not at all.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW discloses origin of diesel deception: Meeting U.S. NOx rules was initially 'impossible'*



> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen said today that engineers installed illegal emissions software in 2.0-liter diesels sold in the U.S. after finding it initially “impossible” to meet tough U.S. limits on nitrogen oxide emissions legally.
> 
> The disclosure, made early today by VW Chairman Hans Dieter Poetsch in a press conference in Wolfsburg, Germany, marks the first time the company has explained the origins of the emissions crisis that has upended the company and prompted investigations by legal and regulatory authorities worldwide hundreds of U.S. lawsuits.
> 
> ...


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> And what are the CO2 emissions?
> 
> The world was and still is focusing heavily on carbon emissions, the TDIs are clean in that regards I believe they even mentioned that specifically. They were also visually clean as portrayed in the commercial recently linked.
> 
> ...


So they are kind of honest or honest about some things. Great. When they Marketed "Clean Diesel" I think most consumers believed this meant both CO2 and other harmful emissions.

Every car I have purchased I assumed the company I bought it from met all of the safety and emission laws. You are correct that I didn't specifically ask or research about each type of pollution that might come out of my car. I also didn't research each type of crash test and how it was done to try to see if they tested them correctly.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

spockcat said:


> *VW discloses origin of diesel deception: Meeting U.S. NOx rules was initially 'impossible'*


Interesting article and of course VW says this was done by a small number of people, I will go out on a limb and say none of the people that were suspended were at the top of the company either.

These are not the same - 



> Volkswagen said today that engineers installed illegal emissions software in 2.0-liter diesels sold in the U.S. after finding it initially “impossible” to meet tough U.S. limits on nitrogen oxide emissions legally.





> “Looking back, we regrettably have to recognize that the developers involved in the EA 189 project quite simply could not find a way to meet the tougher NOx limits in the United States by permissible means, or at least they could not find a way they felt at the time to be meaningful *and that fitted the timeframe and the budget they had been given,*” Poetsch said.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> So they are kind of honest or honest about some things. Great. When they Marketed "Clean Diesel" I think most consumers believed this meant both CO2 and other harmful emissions.


Believing is different than what they said, which again I'm pretty sure they specifically stated nothing more than visual tailpipe emissions and CO2.




> Every car I have purchased I assumed the company I bought it from met all of the safety and emission laws. You are correct that I didn't specifically ask or research about each type of pollution that might come out of my car. I also didn't research each type of crash test and how it was done to try to see if they tested them correctly.


That is not really in anyway related to what is being discussed in regards to what did the term clean as per their marketing campaign meant.

They could have marketed it as dirty and still you would (should) have assumed that it meant it passed all the tests because they and the EPA told you they did. That part has nothing to do with a marketing term.


----------



## NotFast (Mar 20, 2002)

***k Volkswagen, ****ing crybabies. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Wasn't the reason that Mazda didn't bring the diesel 6 to market was emissions reasons? No one force VW to sell polluting cars here... they could have pulled a Mazda and worked on the problem.


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

chris86vw said:


> Believing is different than what they said, which again I'm pretty sure they specifically stated nothing more than visual tailpipe emissions and CO2.


Ahem. "Imply: verb. 1. Strongly suggest the truth or existence of (something not expressly stated)."

It is not necessary for VW's marketing team to have stated, explicitly, that the TDI met or exceeded EPA emissions regulations in order for them (VW) to have committed false advertising. Considering that the EPA certified the vehicles for sale in the US, it was reasonable for the consumer to believe that the vehicles minimally met EPA regulations -- which most consumers already considered to be "dirty" due to previous experiences with diesels on the road. 

VW's marketing campaign clearly implied that not only did their TDIs meet the bare-bones minimum EPA regulations (which consumers already considered dirty), but that they exceeded those regulations as "clean diesels." You've gotta be a pretty hardcore fanboi to say VW's marketing campaign did not imply their vehicles met and/or exceeded EPA regulations by virtue of being "clean."


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

R Salesman said:


> Ahem. "


Ahem what?

if they state clean means something and you assume it means something else then that is your fault not theirs.

I never said anything in regards to them lying about it meeting emissions, that doesn't however change how they defined clean nor does it mean that you get to make crap up of what you think it should mean.


Your username implies that you profited personally from Vws marketing and most likely also from these polluting vehicles, who's in with me on the class action against R Salesman based on what it implies? Or does your definition of imply now change?


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

chris86vw said:


> Ahem what?
> 
> if they state clean means something and you assume it means something else then that is your fault not theirs.
> 
> ...


Can you help me understand your position better?

What do _you_ think VW's marketing team meant by "clean diesel"? Could you please define what VW meant by the term "clean diesel"?

Also, please look up the definitions of the terms "imply" and "infer." They're two different things. VW implied their diesels bucked the stereotype of being dirty (i.e. high-polluters), and were instead clean (low-polluters). 

You are inferring -- making an educated guess -- that my username indicates I sell VWs. My username doesn't imply that. You are inferring that. Two completely different things.

Not that it really matters, but your inference about my username is wrong.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

chris86vw said:


> Ahem what?
> 
> if they state clean means something and you assume it means something else then that is your fault not theirs.


What the **** kind of Jesuitical-ass reasoning is this?


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Uberhare said:


> These are not facts. These are statistics based on limited studies and research. Nitrogen Oxides are a gas is fact. Whether or not these gases cause damage or increase the temperature of the planet is up to debate and interpretation. .


Even if that phenomenon is up for meaningfull debate - which it really isn't, but so stipulated - that debate would be held between people who have a very deep understanding of that very complicated topic, among whose relatively small number you aren't counted.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Turbio! said:


> Even if that phenomenon is up for meaningfull debate - which it really isn't, but so stipulated - that debate would be held between people who have a very deep understanding of that very complicated topic, among whose relatively small number you aren't counted.


How about compared to CO2? Is it easy to determine that you'd have more or less total greenhouse gas emissions from the increased NOX compared to that or is the formula to complicated for an easy answer?


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Air and water do mix said:


> How about compared to CO2? Is it easy to determine that you'd have more or less total greenhouse gas emissions from the increased NOX compared to that or is the formula to complicated for an easy answer?


It's not a terribly complicated answer, but it's more complicated than the question might suggest. In addition to how a gas absorbs IR radiation, and the spectral characteristics of that absorbtion, the GWP (Global Warming Potential) of a greenhouse gas depends on the gas' residence time in the atmosphere. N2O lasts roughly 115-120 years, which is a pretty long time as these things go; as I recall, methane's atmospheric lifetime is around 12 years. Carbon dioxide has a GWP of one, as it's the reference unit against which other GWPs are evaluated relatively. 

But onto the answer: N2O has a GWP of 268 or 298, depending on whether you're considering a 20- or 100-year timeframe. In other words, 268-298 times the greenhouse impact of carbon dioxide. Regulators use the 100-year timeframe most commonly. 

That said, N2O is a very powerful greenhouse gas, but it's not being emitted in quantities sufficient to challenge carbon. I'm not wildly concerned about the GWP of the excess NOX emissions of VW cars, even if those emissions do punch above their weight as greenhouse gases.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

Turbio! said:


> It's not a terribly complicated answer, but it's more complicated than the question might suggest. In addition to how a gas absorbs IR radiation, and the spectral characteristics of that absorbtion, the GWP (Global Warming Potential) of a greenhouse gas depends on the gas' residence time in the atmosphere. N2O lasts roughly 115-120 years, which is a pretty long time as these things go; as I recall, methane's atmospheric lifetime is around 12 years. Carbon dioxide has a GWP of one, as it's the reference unit against which other GWPs are evaluated relatively.
> 
> But onto the answer: N2O has a GWP of 268 or 298, depending on whether you're considering a 20- or 100-year timeframe. In other words, 268-298 times the greenhouse impact of carbon dioxide. Regulators use the 100-year timeframe most commonly.
> 
> That said, N2O is a very powerful greenhouse gas, but it's not being emitted in quantities sufficient to challenge carbon. I'm not wildly concerned about the GWP of the excess NOX emissions of VW cars, even if those emissions do punch above their weight as greenhouse gases.


Are you a scientist of some kind? Just wondering.


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

Jack-DE said:


> OK, let me repeat again then:
> 
> This is in the *specifications section* of the sticker, not the ad or badge part:
> 
> 2.0L 140HP, 236 lbs-ft-torque in-line 4 cyclinder TDI clean diesel engine


OK, let me repeat what I said, again:

The car has an internal combustion engine, which emits harmful exhaust gases. By definition, IT IS NOT a clean engine, no matter what a specification sticker or a badge says.

Does that make sense ?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Are you a scientist of some kind? Just wondering.


I'll let him answer if he so chooses, but I do know he used to work for the EPA.


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

I know this episode of Autoline Detroit is nearly a month old but I think it is still worth a watch: VW’s Diesel Dilemma



Autoline said:


> Csaba Csere, Contributing Editor, Car and Driver; Joe White, Transportation Editor, Reuters; Dave Sullivan, Analyst, AutoPacific. Topic: VW cheating scandal.
> 
> It broke in mid-September but had been boiling for some time. Volkswagen, the largest automaker in the world had done wrong with its diesel engines. VW was hoping it might go away but this huge story has done nothing but grow. On this week’s Autoline, John McElroy is joined by an all-star panel including, Csaba Csere, Contributing Editor, Car and Driver, Pulitzer Prize reporter Joe White from Reuters and AutoPacific car analyst Dave Sullivan, to look at what VW did and if it can get itself out of this global quagmire.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Are you a scientist of some kind? Just wondering.


Nah, he just plays one the internet. Like I do. It's a game a bunch of us play. Kind of like uncleho pretends to be a manufacturing engineer and Brendan pretends to be a sales manager at a car dealership and you pretend to be easy.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> Are you a scientist of some kind? Just wondering.


Yep. Mad scientist. 

In all seriousness, yeah, I'm an ecologist. Been doing consulting and environmental compliance stuff for the past few years, not really doing research anymore per se.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

J-Tim said:


> OK, let me repeat what I said, again:
> 
> The car has an internal combustion engine, which emits harmful exhaust gases. By definition, IT IS NOT a clean engine, no matter what a specification sticker or a badge says.
> 
> Does that make sense ?


Clean compared to what? The rotary pump TDIs of old? The PD cars? Transport trucks? Buses? Your definition of clean is exactly that, your definition. If you're just voicing your opinion, then cool. If you're stating that as a fact, you should expect some disagreement.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

atomicalex said:


> Nah, he just plays one the internet. Like I do. It's a game a bunch of us play. Kind of like uncleho pretends to be a manufacturing engineer and Brendan pretends to be a sales manager at a car dealership and you pretend to be easy.


I was legitimately curious, as he always posts intelligent, well thought-out things. Thank you for the insult, though, madam.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> Nah, he just plays one the internet. Like I do. It's a game a bunch of us play. Kind of like uncleho pretends to be a manufacturing engineer and Brendan pretends to be a sales manager at a car dealership and you pretend to be easy.


Shssssssssss!!!

But on a serious note... we're there any actual VW execs fired or have they all been given their golden parachutes? I assume the "managers" and "engineers" were the only ones thrown under the Vanagon?


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

uncleho said:


> Shssssssssss!!!
> 
> But on a serious note... we're there any actual VW execs fired or have they all been given their golden parachutes? I assume the "managers" and "engineers" were the only ones thrown *under the Vanagon?*


One of our own was given the honors.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> I was legitimately curious, as he always posts intelligent, well thought-out things. Thank you for the insult, though, madam.


Once again, is it an insult if it's true? Life-long conondrum right there. :what:


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

Do they have a deadline for a fix?

Or VW just stalling here?


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> I was legitimately curious, as he always posts intelligent, well thought-out things. Thank you for the insult, though, madam.


Knowing Alex, I don't think it was intended as an insult. 

And while I appreciate the compliment, and hope I at least post intelligent, well-thought out things often enough to keep me in the majors, even I can't let the "always" thing stand unchallenged. :laugh:


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

atomicalex said:


> Nah, he just plays one the internet. Like I do. It's a game a bunch of us play. Kind of like uncleho pretends to be a manufacturing engineer and Brendan pretends to be a sales manager at a car dealership and you pretend to be easy.


I'm actually just a chat bot built by the NADA to win hearts and minds.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

someguy123 said:


> Do they have a deadline for a fix?
> 
> Or VW just stalling here?


They were required by CARB to submit a recall proposal by 20 Nov 2015, which they did, and CARB had 20 days to respond, which has not yet expired.

These timeframes are written into CARB's legislation, but I highly doubt that they anticipate a situation where major engineering and validation testing are required. That sort of time frame may make sense where a minor part like a solenoid valve doesn't work or a vacuum hose might not be routed properly, but not where the entire emission control system has to be redesigned and go through validation testing again in order to do it properly.

So I fully expect that VW's proposal on 20 Nov was a "generic plan" as opposed to a complete set of signed-off engineering drawings and ECU programing, and it may still be months before the exact details are known and even longer before the parts become available to actually do it.

If VW and EPA and CARB want proof that the proposed fix will last the original 120,000 / 150,000 miles that OEM emission control systems are supposed to last - and as an owner of an affected vehicle it's in your interest that they do that - they'll have to do that test ... and that test alone takes around six months to run. And that's if nothing goes wrong requiring the test to be re-done.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

New 2015 Volkswagen Golf TDI SportWagen - $22K
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=407290946&LNX=SOMEDTWVDP

Weren't these like $27-28?


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

MXTHOR3 said:


> Clean compared to what? The rotary pump TDIs of old? The PD cars? Transport trucks? Buses? Your definition of clean is exactly that, your definition. If you're just voicing your opinion, then cool. If you're stating that as a fact, you should expect some disagreement.


Compared to personal transport that doesn't pollute


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

J-Tim said:


> Compared to personal transport that doesn't pollute


So basically a bicyclist that hasn't eaten at Taco Bell.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

Crimping Is Easy said:


> I was legitimately curious, as he always posts intelligent, well thought-out things. Thank you for the insult, though, madam.


You can be whatever you want on the internet with google on your side.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

caj1 said:


> You can be whatever you want on the internet with google on your side.


You sure can. Those leasing strategies are really easy to find on the google.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> You sure can. Those leasing strategies are really easy to find on the google.


Great info - thanks! If you ever need any info on where to buy appreciating assets, google is pretty good too.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

caj1 said:


> Great info - thanks! If you ever need any info on where to buy appreciating assets, google is pretty good too.


I'm doing just fine. Nice ninja edit.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

J-Tim said:


> OK, let me repeat what I said, again:
> 
> The car has an internal combustion engine, which emits harmful exhaust gases. By definition, IT IS NOT a clean engine, no matter what a specification sticker or a badge says.
> 
> Does that make sense ?


They did not specify it as clean engine, but as clean diesel engine meaning that "most" of the harmful gases were supposedly caught by the NOx trap.

Does that make sense?


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

uncleho said:


> But on a serious note... we're there any actual VW execs fired or have they all been given their golden parachutes? I assume the "managers" and "engineers" were the only ones thrown under the Vanagon?


Not so much "fired" as "GTFO!!!!!".


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

caj1 said:


> You can be whatever you want on the internet with google on your side.


Then what's your excuse?


----------



## Sold Over Sticker (Nov 29, 2009)

Turbio! said:


> Then what's your excuse?


:laugh:


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

Jack-DE said:


> They did not specify it as clean engine, but as clean diesel engine meaning that "most" of the harmful gases were supposedly caught by the NOx trap.
> 
> Does that make sense?


Certainly. However, it doesn't change the fact that it is extremely harmful for the environment, so you either live with that or you don't.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Turbio! said:


> What the **** kind of Jesuitical-ass reasoning is this?



In the context vw clearly stated clean meant really low CO2 emissions and little to no visible soot.

There was no reason for them to market clean to specifically represent something they were legally required to meet, they could have called the car dirty and if it met the NOx standard you wouldn't have a reason to flip out that omg no it was actually clean they lied. 




We all know now that the car was not clean. I don't recall VW ever once in an ad stating that it means NOx emissions, I may have missed it but I recall CO2 and the soot coming up. They clearly defined how they were using the term. 


They stated what they defined clean as, you thinking it means something doesn't mean VW is responsible for you making assumptions.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

R Salesman said:


> Can you help me understand your position better?
> 
> What do _you_ think VW's marketing team meant by "clean diesel"? Could you please define what VW meant by the term "clean diesel"?


The one you clearly quoted above but obviously didn't read? that one? 






> Not that it really matters, but your inference about my username is wrong.


It does matter, VW clearly defined clean in their marketing, your username is still up for debate and well I say that it means you sold dirty cars and should be held liable.


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

chris86vw said:


> The one you clearly quoted above but obviously didn't read? that one?


I read what you said. It's pretty clear you didn't reciprocate. It's not about the words that were used by VW. It's about what those words implied. 

Are you suggesting that the term "clean diesel" specifically excludes any and all emissions other than CO2?



chris86vw said:


> It does matter, VW clearly defined clean in their marketing, your username is still up for debate and well I say that it means you sold dirty cars and should be held liable.


This is pretty basic stuff. My username doesn't imply anything. You are inferring. Two completely different things.




vocabulary.com said:


> Imply and infer are opposites, like a throw and a catch. To imply is to hint at something, but to infer is to make an educated guess. The speaker does the implying, and the listener does the inferring.
> 
> To imply is to suggest something indirectly. If you hand your friend a stack of napkins during dinner, you imply that she needs them. Things can imply, too, like a chimney that implies a fireplace. Check out these examples:
> 
> ...


I hope this helps. :beer:


----------



## vwlifer27 (Jun 15, 2005)

McBanagon said:


> New 2015 Volkswagen Golf TDI SportWagen - $22K
> http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=407290946&LNX=SOMEDTWVDP
> 
> Weren't these like $27-28?


That is the base, so the price is about right. I know my local dealer was selling the base for about that price.


----------



## TangoRed (Sep 7, 2005)

Turbio! said:


> Then what's your excuse?


Sick burn :laugh:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

R Salesman said:


> I read what you said. It's pretty clear you didn't reciprocate. It's not about the words that were used by VW. It's about what those words implied.


The word(s) or phrases CO2 and visible emissions don't imply anything else, not sure why you think they do. 


Again they don't need to even use the word clean they could have used purple if they wanted to, the car itself should have been passing NOx emissions there is no marketing needed for that. The clean, how they stated it, referred to what they exceeded the requirements for.


----------



## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

McBanagon said:


> New 2015 Volkswagen Golf TDI SportWagen - $22K
> http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=407290946&LNX=SOMEDTWVDP
> 
> Weren't these like $27-28?


such a tease, you still can't buy them, unless i missed something? 

the proposal they submitted nov20, CARB has 20 business days? or 20 calendar days?


----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

Well I'm going to go ahead and call it that VW has successfully weathered the "dieselgate" scandal because now the argument has decayed into minutia about grammar. That didn't take long at all.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

eweu said:


> Well I'm going to go ahead and call it that VW has successfully weathered the "dieselgate" scandal because now the argument has decayed into minutia about grammar. That didn't take long at all.


...only about 200 pages. 

(Also, I never would have thought that I'd be replying on page 205 of this thread.)

(Also, still haven't received our TDI goodwill package.)


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

eweu said:


> Well I'm going to go ahead and call it that VW has successfully weathered the "dieselgate" scandal because now the argument has decayed into minutia about grammar. That didn't take long at all.


I was thinking the same thing before, was going to post it but figured that person would take it way too personally.

It also means he has no point but he knows that.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Numbersix said:


> (Also, still haven't received our TDI goodwill package.)


both of mine showed up saturday. 

Taking 2012 tomorrow during lunch


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)

Is it safe to say that every car, part, service item, or accessory at a VW dealership is now at least $500 more than it was last month?. 

You: "I need new wiper blades."
Dealer: "That will be $500."

You: "How much is that VW frisbee?"
Dealer: "$500."

You: "I'll take the $39.95 oil change special."
Dealer: "Excellent choice...there has however been a slight price increase..."


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Lookie what I got in the mail today :laugh:


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Mazda 3s said:


> Lookie what I got in the mail today :laugh:


Nice I got mine in time for inspection. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

_Places envelope to head_

As much a chance to pass as Lance Armstrong's wee.








2ohgti said:


> I got mine in time for inspection.


----------



## Mc.Dub (Jul 28, 2003)

Mazda 3s said:


> Lookie what I got in the mail today :laugh:




When do the cards expire (good-thru date)? I'm trying to figure out how long i'll have to spend the dealer card.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Mc.Dub said:


> When do the cards expire (good-thru date)? I'm trying to figure out how long i'll have to spend the dealer card.


Both expire 11/16


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Mazda 3s said:


> Lookie what I got in the mail today :laugh:


Nice CC TDI.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Mine came yesterday as well :thumbup:


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

J-Tim said:


> OK, let me repeat what I said, again:
> 
> The car has an internal combustion engine, which emits harmful exhaust gases. By definition, IT IS NOT a clean engine, no matter what a specification sticker or a badge says.
> 
> Does that make sense ?





J-Tim said:


> Certainly. However, it doesn't change the fact that it is extremely harmful for the environment, so you either live with that or you don't.


Certainly, we live with that. To move from A to B we pollute no matter what transportation we use. The issue is that VW advertised and "specified" this as clean diesel meaning they meet (and implying exceed) environmental standards but it turned out that they cheated to meet the EPA standards.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Jack-DE said:


> Certainly, we live with that. To move from A to B we pollute no matter what transportation we use. The issue is that VW advertised and "specified" this as clean diesel meaning they meet (and implying exceed) environmental standards but it turned out that they cheated to meet the EPA standards.


So if VW didn't say it was a clean diesel that would have implied that they had not met the standards?

They don't need to market anything to indicate that the met a standard, the fact that it is on the lot should have been but wasn't proof that it met it.

What VW did exceed was the CO2 requirements, and their clean marketing stated this is what they meant by clean as well as little to no visible tailpipe emissions.

Show me where VW referenced clean in regards to NOx?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/201...pproval-to-start-fixing-diesel-cars-in-europe



Bloomberg said:


> *Volkswagen Receives Approval to Fix Diesel Cars in Europe*
> 
> Volkswagen AG won regulatory approval for technical plans to fix 8.5 million diesel engines in Europe equipped with software that cheats on emissions tests, enabling the company to start resolving a scandal that has hurt sales since September.
> 
> ...


Considering the NOx limit is so much lower on US market vehicles, I suspect a hardware fix will be needed in the US market too. If VW is saying they can't even start putting a tiny mesh in the intake of their 1.6 liter TDIs until Q3-2016, I can't even imagine how long it will take before they could do anything meaningful for US cars, like a higher capacity NOx trap or any kind of aftertreatment. It actually makes it sound impossible for them to fix the US cars that lack Adblue if they can't even get around to the 5 minutes of work of putting a mesh in the intake of the 1.6 liter TDIs until well into next year. The Adblue TDIs in the US market will likely see a software fix, but all those earlier TDIs may be hopeless.


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

well since we are all completely anonymous on the net, lawyer just got a settlement offer of $7500 and all his fees paid.

you all can keep your debit card and dealer rape.


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

Aseras said:


> well since we are all completely anonymous on the net, lawyer just got a settlement offer of $7500 and all his fees paid.
> 
> you all can keep your debit card and dealer rape.


Are you saying that your lawyer got you a settlement offer of $7,500+ expenses? Please be more clear with your writing. 

Also, I thought that the VW care package that everyone is getting in the mail _does not_ preclude people from seeking a lawsuit or settlement on their own. So there's no reason someone can't do _both._


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Aseras said:


> lawyer just got a settlement offer of $7500


Did you have to use a doll to show the jury where Matthias Mueller touched you?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Aseras said:


> you all can keep your debit card and dealer rape.


can't you as well?

Or are you the same person from before that couldn't read a CC terms and conditions sheet?


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> Did you have to use a doll to show the jury where Matthias Mueller touched you?


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> Did you have to use a doll to show the jury where Matthias Mueller touched you?


POINTS!

And yes, from everything I have read (and that is every bit of fine print I could find), you are not excluded from joining a legal class if you accept the VW goodwill package.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Aseras said:


> well since we are all completely anonymous on the net, lawyer just got a settlement offer of $7500 and all his fees paid.
> 
> you all can keep your debit card and dealer rape.


this sounds like bunk.

1st off, it's way too soon to even think VW would settle out ANYTHING, as it would support any/all of the other pending litigation.

2nd - the value of loss has truly yet to be seen. I'd like to see how someone with a car under the issue lost about 1/2 the value of the car (based upon 7,500 * 1.3 = 9,750 out of a car worth ~$20K)
the person suing would have to show that they sold the car for an amount the same or grater, or the damages have such a value.

please post up more info on this, as it sounds completely fake.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

You'reDrunk said:


> this sounds like bunk.
> 
> 1st off, it's way too soon to even think VW would settle out ANYTHING, as it would support any/all of the other pending litigation.
> 
> ...


X2. Not to mention that with the news coming out in September and what normal legal proceedings time line takes it would be more than amazing that less than 3 months from the news braking, lawyers were contacted, VW analyzed everything, negotiated a deal and settled all before anyone really knows the extent of the problem or the affect on resale.

The "we are possibly looking at 500,000 claims but maybe we should settle with this one guy right now" makes little sense.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

You'reDrunk said:


> this sounds like bunk.
> 
> 1st off, it's way too soon to even think VW would settle out ANYTHING, as it would support any/all of the other pending litigation.
> 
> ...


Agreeing with Larry on something is pretty much the most painful thing to do here, but I have to on this.

Don't believe that guy. Not even a little.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> Considering the NOx limit is so much lower on US market vehicles, I suspect a hardware fix will be needed in the US market too. If VW is saying they can't even start putting a tiny mesh in the intake of their 1.6 liter TDIs until Q3-2016, I can't even imagine how long it will take before they could do anything meaningful for US cars, like a higher capacity NOx trap or any kind of aftertreatment. It actually makes it sound impossible for them to fix the US cars that lack Adblue if they can't even get around to the 5 minutes of work of putting a mesh in the intake of the 1.6 liter TDIs until well into next year. The Adblue TDIs in the US market will likely see a software fix, but all those earlier TDIs may be hopeless.


agreed.

and ive been beating that drum since nearly the start of the thread.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> A*greeing with Larry on something is pretty much the most painful thing to do here, but I have to on this.*
> 
> Don't believe that guy. Not even a little.


hate me much???


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

You'reDrunk said:


> hate me much???


Hate is a strong word :laugh:


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

Get your claims ready... 

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKBN0U02QW20151217


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

JohnNS said:


> Get your claims ready...
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKBN0U02QW20151217


More details here: *VW hires Ken Feinberg to handle diesel emissions claims
*



> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen of America has hired attorney and compensation expert Kenneth Feinberg to help it resolve claims by owners of diesel vehicles with illegal emissions software.
> 
> Feinberg, who oversaw the compensation program for victims injured or killed by General Motors vehicles with defective ignition switches, will develop and administer a program to address claims brought by owners of VW’s 2.0-liter and 3.0-liter diesel vehicles with the illegal software. Feinberg said he will accept input on the program from VW, vehicle owners and their attorneys, and other interested parties.
> 
> ...


----------



## Cabin Pics (Mar 20, 2008)

JohnNS said:


> Get your claims ready...
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKBN0U02QW20151217


Can this thread be done now? Please? Pretty please?


----------



## BeBop! (Jun 18, 2009)

efrie said:


> Can this thread be done now? Please? Pretty please?


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

efrie said:


> Can this thread be done now? Please? Pretty please?


Yup! All you have to do is not look at it, pretty simple!


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

efrie said:


> Can this thread be done now? Please? Pretty please?


Thread ends because one day maybe less that 1% of the topic at hand will be addressed by VW hiring a firm to pay people off?

how about just not read it like others suggested, this has nothing to do with fixing the cars.


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

In other words the Car Lounge thrives and survives off of drama, as to why this topic has gone over 200 pages.


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)

This thread has caused me physical distress and emotional anguish.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

ClownCar said:


> This thread has caused me physical distress and emotional anguish.


Hurt in a forum? Call Bellow, Stratton and Dorem!


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)

GoHomePossum said:


> Hurt in a forum? Call Bellow, Stratton and Dorem!


I grew up watching Detroit TV on cable so I'm more of a Bockhoff Zamler Mellen & Shiffman man.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

efrie said:


> Can this thread be done now? Please? Pretty please?


Stop reading and posting in it to help your cause?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

dmorrow said:


> Stop reading and posting in it to help your cause?


Dammit man, how is he to know if it is really over if he doesn't check in and post followup questions about it being over or not to confirm the overness or notness of the thread? THINK why doncha before spouting off idiocy such as that :facepalm:


----------



## rlfletch (Jun 11, 2000)

Interesting idea to solve their problems:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/12/17/vw-elon-musk/77512928/


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

rlfletch said:


> Interesting idea to solve their problems:
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/12/17/vw-elon-musk/77512928/


And, honestly, a more sensible one. 

Interesting that Musk calls out how small the total effect of the TDI problem is compared tot he rest of emissions in CA.


----------



## robr2 (May 5, 2005)

rlfletch said:


> Interesting idea to solve their problems:
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/12/17/vw-elon-musk/77512928/


In other words - please buy my batteries.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

rlfletch said:


> Interesting idea to solve their problems:
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/12/17/vw-elon-musk/77512928/





> The open letter to Mary Nichols, chairwoman of the California Air Resources Board, proposes that VW be released from "its obligation to fix diesel cars already on the road in California, which represent an insignificant portion of total vehicle emissions in the state" and present no health risk to their owners.
> 
> Instead, VW would have to "accelerate greatly its rollout of zero-emission vehicles," resulting in a "10 for 1 or greater reduction in pollutant emissions as compared to the pollution associated with the diesel fleet cheating."


To me this looks like - "VW has been breaking the law on purpose for the last 8 years (or whatever it is), they got caught, but really they are a small part of the overall problem, what about they just promise to do the right thing going forward".

I hope if I get caught breaking the law that people also realize I am a tiny portion of the overall problem and I also will promise to help out with charities or whatever to avoid facing jail.

Also, at what point did Musk decide he needed to get involved? I think he has enough things to keep busy and as pointed out above, when recommending a penalty that you can also profit off of it makes you look less than genuine. VW should be required to produce lots more zero emission vehicles and Musk just happens to have a huge stake in zero emission batteries.


----------



## Slipstream (Feb 8, 2002)

dmorrow said:


> Also, at what point did Musk decide he needed to get involved? I think he has enough things to keep busy and as pointed out above, when recommending a penalty that you can also profit off of it makes you look less than genuine. VW should be required to produce lots more zero emission vehicles and Musk just happens to have a huge stake in zero emission batteries.


You can't fault the guy for being in the right place at the right time.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> To me this looks like - "VW has been breaking the law on purpose for the last 8 years (or whatever it is), they got caught, but really they are a small part of the overall problem, what about they just promise to do the right thing going forward".
> 
> I hope if I get caught breaking the law that people also realize I am a tiny portion of the overall problem and I also will promise to help out with charities or whatever to avoid facing jail.
> 
> Also, at what point did Musk decide he needed to get involved? I think he has enough things to keep busy and as pointed out above, when recommending a penalty that you can also profit off of it makes you look less than genuine. VW should be required to produce lots more zero emission vehicles and Musk just happens to have a huge stake in zero emission batteries.


The promise part could be tricky since they did lie.

However the point is valid, this isn't much different than carbon offset credits and things like that. Musk isn't the first and won't be the last to propose this, as an electric auto manufacture and battery produce he clearly has a stake in suggesting this, don't think he would deny it. But that doesn't mean he doesn't' have a point others have written articles and suggested things like covering costs to keep nuclear power facilities up and running which are going to be decommissioned to put natural gas and coal plants online which will increase NOx emissions to levels equal or greater than VW. finding ways to offset the pollution is a viable solution.


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

Musk's goal has always been not for Tesla to become a vehicle to make him rich, but for it to become a lever to force the vehicle industry to change. In that light, his mere endorsement of someone else's letter urging a similar goal is completely reasonable.

One of the many possibilities we have discussed here at our engineering firm where there are close to 10 of these vehicles among ~25 employees and their immediate families is that instead of fixing the cars, VW be instead forced to offset their pollution in other ways. It'd be a much easier solution for everyone involved and ultimately, probably a lot more environmentally responsible. Think of the energy costs involved in designing, manufacturing, shipping, and installing these parts on every vehicle. Just be done with it and force them to offset the lifetime emissions of every vehicle many times over. That's basically what this letter is calling for, but more directly by making VW change.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

zhenya00 said:


> Think of the energy costs involved in designing, manufacturing, shipping, and installing these parts on every vehicle.


Exactly what we were just discussing in my office as well. Similar ratio of TDIs to employee but the are all mine


----------



## OOOO-A3 (Jul 20, 2004)

zhenya00 said:


> Musk's goal has always been not for Tesla to become a vehicle to make him rich, but for it to become a lever to force the vehicle industry to change. In that light, his mere endorsement of someone else's letter urging a similar goal is completely reasonable.


Not only that, but there's a much more practical reason to do the remediation somewhere OTHER than the infringing TDIs:

Let's say 100% of the infringing TDIs are 'fixed'.
The next day, one of them gets totaled in a wreck. The cost, materials, and effort to build/ship/install the parts on that particular car are now wasted, and have a net-negative contribution to overall pollution.
Time passes.... the fleet grows smaller and smaller, and the benefit of 'fixing' those cars diminishes.
15 years later.... there are negligible amounts of those cars still in service, and the environmental benefit of remediating them has all but vanished.

VERSUS


Let's say that the money to be spent on the infringing TDIs is instead spent on cleaning up a couple of powerplants, OR building solar/wind power sites to replace fossil-fuel powerplants.
Time passes...
15 years later... the net result of the cost, materials, and effort to reduce pollution elsewhere has a much greater effect than anything VW could have done to the TDIs.
...and it continues for many more years over the life of those power-generating sites.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

The argument that the environment would be better as a whole if they could just offset what they did by helping somewhere else is a poor deterrent in stopping people from doing the same thing again. It essentially just becomes a fine. Then their "fine" would be to increase development of electric cars which they are already doing? Seems like the overall scheme works out perfectly for VW. VW runs the numbers, realizes by cheating on emission testing, if they get caught they will be required to develop new technology or possibly just pay a fine.

Same argument for the "overall environmental benefit" can also be applied to extremely rich people. When someone is facing jail time and at the same time has massive amounts of money, it looks like on the surface that society as a whole would be better off just fining the guy a huge amount of money and not making him face jail time. Billionaires do whatever they want because we think getting their money helps us all when in reality people realize that some people (and companies) are above the law and just write the check.

EDIT - Also, why have we all decided that it is too difficult/expensive for VW to fix the problem when they haven't said much of anything about it? Seems like we are ready to throw in the towel before we hear from the one that broke the law.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

OOOO-A3 said:


> Not only that, but there's a much more practical reason to do the remediation somewhere OTHER than the infringing TDIs:
> 
> Let's say 100% of the infringing TDIs are 'fixed'.
> The next day, one of them gets totaled in a wreck. The cost, materials, and effort to build/ship/install the parts on that particular car are now wasted, and have a net-negative contribution to overall pollution.
> ...


^I am actually fully on board with this and Musk's plea. VW should be planting trees, saving rainforests, investing in zero emission vehicles, etc. Diesel emissions are so friggin strict here that there is a reason why they aren't approved by CARB yet and rolling this out. Its not just a software flash.

They would have to add another or a bigger catalyst, urea injection downstream (on vehicles wasn't originally designed for), and a software update on every single TDI. Isn't all the engineering time, retrofit time and warranty money spent on the newly made parts better spent on future green initiatives or investing in cleaner technology moving forward? 

The longer this goes on I'm more convinced this is what will end up happening, even with "the fix" if something ever comes out, I'd be amazed if they got half the owners to actually complete it, so it would be a lot of time and money wasted IMO.


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

dmorrow said:


> The argument that the environment would be better as a whole if they could just offset what they did by helping somewhere else is a poor deterrent in stopping people from doing the same thing again. It essentially just becomes a fine. Then their "fine" would be to increase development of electric cars which they are already doing? Seems like the overall scheme works out perfectly for VW. VW runs the numbers, realizes by cheating on emission testing, if they get caught they will be required to develop new technology or possibly just pay a fine.
> 
> Same argument for the "overall environmental benefit" can also be applied to extremely rich people. When someone is facing jail time and at the same time has massive amounts of money, it looks like on the surface that society as a whole would be better off just fining the guy a huge amount of money and not making him face jail time. Billionaires do whatever they want because we think getting their money helps us all when in reality people realize that some people (and companies) are above the law and just write the check.
> 
> EDIT - Also, why have we all decided that it is too difficult/expensive for VW to fix the problem when they haven't said much of anything about it? Seems like we are ready to throw in the towel before we hear from the one that broke the law.


The deterrent would come from making the offset large enough to have a discouraging effect from anyone else doing it again in the future. Also, the offset would be in addition to any federal fines they pay and any settlement they offer the owners. This would not be letting VW off easy.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

OOOO-A3 said:


> Not only that, but there's a much more practical reason to do the remediation somewhere OTHER than the infringing TDIs:
> 
> Let's say 100% of the infringing TDIs are 'fixed'.
> The next day, one of them gets totaled in a wreck. The cost, materials, and effort to build/ship/install the parts on that particular car are now wasted, and have a net-negative contribution to overall pollution.
> ...


i gotta say this makes a lot of sense.

unfortunately there are too many ninnies out there that will not let this lie if nothing at all is done to 'correct' the emissions output from the cars themselves.


----------



## bzcat (Nov 26, 2001)

zhenya00 said:


> The deterrent would come from making the offset large enough to have a discouraging effect from anyone else doing it again in the future. Also, the offset would be in addition to any federal fines they pay and any settlement they offer the owners. This would not be letting VW off easy.


Plus potential criminal prosecution.

This proposal really mostly reliefs the _owners_ of these vehicles from the hardship from a Corporate fraud that they themselves are victims.

The key will be enforcement... how will CARB monitor VW's progress towards more ZEV and how much more they have to exceed the industry average, and how far ahead of the statutory timeline they have to be. Remember, VW is the only car company operating in the US to still openly oppose the current CAFE rules. All other car companies, include gross CAFE violators Daimler have signed the letter of agreement with EPA.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> Also, at what point did Musk decide he needed to get involved? I think he has enough things to keep busy and as pointed out above, when recommending a penalty that you can also profit off of it makes you look less than genuine. VW should be required to produce lots more zero emission vehicles and Musk just happens to have a huge stake in zero emission batteries.


Honestly, I don't expect Tesla to survive as an automaker. I think they will become an information & tech company and parts supplier, like Denso, Delco, Bosch, Delphi, and all the others. Musk is hedging his bets by trying to coerce VW into working closely with Tesla to make their next fleet of EVs based on parts contracted with his company, rather than doing it on their own. He's smarter than probably anyone in this thread, and as ruthless as Jobs. Nothing he does is out of the kindness of his heart, every move is carefully calculated to improve his position in the industry and in the history books.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> Nothing he does is out of the kindness of his heart, every move is carefully calculated to improve his position in the industry and in the history books.


nailed it. no way he's doing this for some environmentally friendly purpose.


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

OOOO-A3 said:


> Not only that, but there's a much more practical reason to do the remediation somewhere OTHER than the infringing TDIs:
> 
> Let's say 100% of the infringing TDIs are 'fixed'.
> The next day, one of them gets totaled in a wreck. The cost, materials, and effort to build/ship/install the parts on that particular car are now wasted, and have a net-negative contribution to overall pollution.
> ...


Let's say: VW buyback all affected TDIs. Problem solved.:facepalm:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

someguy123 said:


> Let's say: VW buyback all affected TDIs. Problem solved.:facepalm:


Actually the problem isn't even remotely solved.

So you buy them back, what do you do with them? What is the environmental impact of shipping them all to be recycled and disposed of? What is the impact of he employees going to and from work just to take the job of disposing of them? How well to do do you think the average employee at a facility is like that and the likely hood they are driving a brand new low emissions vehicle? What is the environmental impact of building new replacement vehicles, shipping them, selling them etc...

Buying them back is likely significantly worse for the environment then any other option. 



Which is also why if the real issue here is the environment not a single person would be suggesting a buy back.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

chris86vw said:


> Actually the problem isn't even remotely solved.
> 
> So you buy them back, what do you do with them? What is the environmental impact of shipping them all to be recycled and disposed of? What is the impact of he employees going to and from work just to take the job of disposing of them? How well to do do you think the average employee at a facility is like that and the likely hood they are driving a brand new low emissions vehicle? What is the environmental impact of building new replacement vehicles, shipping them, selling them etc...
> 
> ...


bolded for specificity :thumbup:


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> nailed it. no way he's doing this for some environmentally friendly purpose.


Why can't he be doing it for both business and environmental reasons?


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> Nothing he does is out of the kindness of his heart, every move is carefully calculated to improve his position in the industry and in the history books.


Agreed 100% on that one.

However, that move (for now at least) seems to be in the right direction, as far as our environment is concerned.

I don't for a moment doubt that western governments will contribute in helping the cause in a meaningful way, as long as they have so much money invested in oil and the associated costs of war machine.


----------



## auR32 (Jul 21, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> Honestly, I don't expect Tesla to survive as an automaker. I think they will become an information & tech company and parts supplier, like Denso, Delco, Bosch, Delphi, and all the others


I don't think so. Tesla is committed to inspiring and helping the change to electric vehicles. That's why they have released their tech, they know they cannot grow fast enough to take over the planet's vehicle production. They'll be a player for a long time, I reckon.

https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> Actually the problem isn't even remotely solved.
> 
> So you buy them back, what do you do with them? What is the environmental impact of shipping them all to be recycled and disposed of? What is the impact of he employees going to and from work just to take the job of disposing of them? How well to do do you think the average employee at a facility is like that and the likely hood they are driving a brand new low emissions vehicle? What is the environmental impact of building new replacement vehicles, shipping them, selling them etc...
> 
> ...


Well you since its not about the environment, then they should just let the cars stay on the road and we can all carry on with our lives....

Note: I could care less about the impact my TDi has on planet earth. But apparently the US and European government do so, they will figure out something to do. And VW will be forced to fix the cars or buy them back. if they do buy them back, they should just crush them, or transport them to someplace that is emissions exempt (which would have the same environmental impact as just leaving them on the roads to begin with).


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AJB said:


> if they do buy them back, they should just crush them, or transport them to someplace that is emissions exempt (which would have the same environmental impact as just leaving them on the roads to begin with).


No it will be WORSE overall not the same, it may not be much worse (it would be though) but it would only be worse it would not possibly be the same. 

If we just look at the US, how exactly are you transporting several 100k old cars out of the country, several 100k new cars into or around the country without adding to the overall emissions? I'm unaware of a 0 emissions shipping fleet both on and off road that would do this. Just think about it, if a truck that can hold say 10 cars would have to take 10 cars from the port to the dealer oh 25 miles away (that is insanely short distance in the grand scheme of this) it then picks up 10 used cars and brings them to the port. That is 50 miles driven by a less regulated high emitting (most likely) diesel truck or 5 miles per car to take it off the road. At 100k cars that is 500k miles just in shipping, at oh 400k left on the road in the us (random guess) that would be 2million additional shipping miles. You are trying to say that before we crush them, before we build replacement cars, before they get put on a boat and sent to another country that these 2 million miles (on the very very low end) shipping inside the US wouldn't add to the problem? it would be the same environmental impact?

As Larry bolded and highlighted my IF before.. IF the environment (that you seem to care about  ) is a concern then buyback isn't even an option that should be discussed. outside unicorns flying each offending vehicle into some black hole in space, every way a buyback could work would overall have greater negative impact then fixing or even leaving them alone. 


This is also why things like Musks suggestion and other ideas such funding clean(er) power plants overall would be the best environmental impact because the retrofitting of the cars will have its own negative impact. Producing and implementing the fixes themselves won't be a 0 emission process on anything but the possibly software only vehicles where the cost would likely be at least neutral in the end.

Think of it like this.

If the offending vehicles in their lifetimes were only supposed to emit 1000 units of yuck but are calculated to emit 2000 units of yuck if let unfixed. If a retrofit will actually add 100 units and the time past already put out an extra 100 units then the best case scenario with a fix is 1200 units, still 20% over! But if for the same amount of money vw would spending fixing cars instead went to another project that would reduce that output of yuck by say 2000 units then overall we are actually way ahead.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> No it will be WORSE overall not the same, it may not be much worse (it would be though) but it would only be worse it would not possibly be the same.
> 
> If we just look at the US, how exactly are you transporting several 100k old cars out of the country, several 100k new cars into or around the country without adding to the overall emissions?


America sends over 15 million light duty vehicles to the scrapper *every year* and literal tons more of medium and heavy machinery too. A couple hundred thousand lightweight VW's in a single year isn't going to even move the needle in comparison to the 150 million (or more!) LDV's we are already going to scrap over the next 10 years alone.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> America sends over 15 million light duty vehicles to the scrapper *every year* and literal tons more of medium and heavy machinery too. A couple hundred thousand lightweight VW's in a single year isn't going to even move the needle in comparison to the 150 million (or more!) LDV's we are already going to scrap over the next 10 years alone.


And conversely leaving them in operation isn't going to mean squat to the environment (outside of some bizzaro TDI waterfest where all illegal TDIs gather in downtown LA for a month of particulate madness). The mass hysteria around this issue is mind bending, especially since the most impressive issue being they lied to, and got away with it, to government agencies around the globe (you'd think people would be more concerned that their government is incapable of protecting them from polluting cars, let alone terrorist :laugh: ). Environmentally the scandal is a minuscule impact in the grand scheme of what is killing us and the planet. 

*Buy back the cars and crush them!!!!* _Why?_ * Because they lied to the government and hurt our feelings about buying 'clean' ICE powered cars rabble rabble rabble* :laugh:

It is, however, time to reflect on the immortal words of Thomas, whom said;

_Do not go gentle into that continuing pollution,
Clean Diesel should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the nox you knew not when.

Though wise men at their end know the lie is right,
Because their works had forked tongued science they
Do not go gentle into that continuing pollution._


----------



## PowerslavePA (Dec 9, 2014)

.yuk. said:


> Mine came yesterday as well :thumbup:


Got mine Monday, activated Thursday, wife spent it all Friday...

Gonna use the Dealer card and buy as many oil change kits I can,
or timing belt kit, not sure... 147K miles on it....

Oh, and I talked to the dealer, they ARE allowed to sell used TDIs, they
are just not allowed to certify them; NO sales on new ones, at all.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Just read VW will implement employee rotation to help prevent future internal problems - employees will only spend a short amount of time in one position before being moved to a different area/job task/level.


----------



## spathotan (Jun 14, 2013)

GoHomePossum said:


> Just read VW will implement employee rotation to help prevent future internal problems - employees will only spend a short amount of time in one position before being moved to a different area/job task/level.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

GoHomePossum said:


> Just read VW will implement employee rotation to help prevent future internal problems - employees will only spend a short amount of time in one position before being moved to a different area/job task/level.


If there is no one to take ownership of a project and shepherd it through to completion, and no one who has been there through the history of the project and knows who did what and why, the project will fail.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

GoFaster said:


> If there is no one to take ownership of a project and shepherd it through to completion, and no one who has been there through the history of the project and knows who did what and why, the project will fail.


The federal government has made it work - agencies like GSA are notorious for keeping people shuffled around, especially property managers and such. It does help weed out complacency and makes sure fresh ideas are always rising to the top of the pile. Downside is it is bad for morale sometimes.

I won't judge yet - I say let VW try it and see how it works.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> America sends over 15 million light duty vehicles to the scrapper *every year* and literal tons more of medium and heavy machinery too. A couple hundred thousand lightweight VW's in a single year isn't going to even move the needle in comparison to the 150 million (or more!) LDV's we are already going to scrap over the next 10 years alone.


Which has zero to do with anything I wrote or responded to.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> Which has zero to do with anything I wrote or responded to.


You're arguing that it's impossible to responsibly recycle a couple hundred thousand cars. We are already doing over 15 million a year _plus_ all of the even heavier medium and heavy duty vehicles, plus non-road equipment, plus even stuff like buildings and all kinds of other random stuff. Yes, we can responsibly recycle an extra couple hundred thousand vehicles and it will improve smog in city centers, especially since the auto recycling plants are generally not in city centers. You're also ignoring the fact it makes a huge psychological statement to round up cars and send them to the recycling yards. Doing so dramatically increases the embarrassment at VW and will make both VW and the industry as a whole much less likely to play games in the future because of how bad it makes them look in the public eye.


----------



## TangoRed (Sep 7, 2005)

GoFaster said:


> If there is no one to take ownership of a project and shepherd it through to completion, and no one who has been there through the history of the project and knows who did what and why, the project will fail.


That's not necessarily true. Many big companies operate this way (sometimes unintentionally); the time in position can't be too short though.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> You're arguing that it's impossible to responsibly recycle a couple hundred thousand cars.


Nope, not arguing nor is that what I said even.


The person I responded to said the impact would be the same in a scenario that the cars were taken off US roads and shipped to another country for use, you even quoted that part. I explained why that would not be the case, had nothing to do with recycling.

If they were recycled, responsibly or not the impact would still very likely be greater.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> If they were recycled, responsibly or not the impact would still very likely be greater.


Well you're wrong, auto recycling does not cause more city-center NOx and smog than leaving those vehicles driving around cities.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> Well you're wrong, auto recycling does not cause more city-center NOx and smog than leaving those vehicles driving around cities.


I'm sorry I didn't realize this discussion required blinders.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> I'm sorry I didn't realize this discussion required blinders.


I haven't followed all of your discussion, but there's a fact you're leaving out. At some point the cars will be recycled anyway, so that's a wash. The only remainder is _when_ the recycling would happen and usage of the car for its normal life cycle. :beer:

I think the best thing for the environment would be to implement simple upgrades (software and easy mechanical mods only) and the rest make up for it with offsetting by buying cleaner school busses or upgrading power plants. That gives them the responsibility of 'fixing' their cars (with all of the bad PR that comes with it) plus putting long_er_-term clean air changes in place. :thumbup:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> I haven't followed all of your discussion, but there's a fact you're leaving out. At some point the cars will be recycled anyway, so that's a wash. The only remainder is _when_ the recycling would happen and usage of the car for its normal life cycle. :beer:



Well my discussion was initially about someone saying that there would be zero additional impact of shipping all the cars out of the US to another country to be used, as in not taking them off the road and recycling them but rather ADD to the overall number of vehicles in use while these vehicles continue to pollute at the same levels, just not in my backyard.

The transportation of replacement vehicles and of the vehicles to be recycled along with the recycling itself wouldn't automatically be a wash either. Regulations in regards to heavy duty trucks, energy, and even the equipment used are becoming more strict as well not just passenger vehicles. Move this 5 years into the future and the impact for the recycling and disposal would likely be less of an impact compared to doing it today. 

Destroying them now vs letting them live their lives out would also mean that the initial manufacturing, shipping, etc had a greater impact per mile. If the first car went 20k miles, was destroyed and a second car built that went 100k miles that means the environmental impact of producing two vehicles only resulted in 120k miles vs possibly 200k mile (random miles obviously random). 



All of this is why as you point out simple fixes and looking to the future and/or investing in other things like the power plants really likely makes the most environmental sense.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> Well my discussion was initially about someone saying that there would be zero additional impact of shipping all the cars out of the US to another country to be used, as in not taking them off the road and recycling them but rather ADD to the overall number of vehicles in use while these vehicles continue to pollute at the same levels, just not in my backyard...


With NOX being the big polluters and the possibility of these things going where concentrated levels aren't a problem, I don't see how that is _necessarily_ an issue. They're quite a bit lower in CO2 emissions than a comparable gas engine, so that's a big plus. In some places like LA or Mexico City it's a huge deal, as the lay of the land traps pollution and concentrates it where people actually live. In Saudi Arabia that wouldn't be an issue. I don't know how much it would actually add to the world fleet, but you're certainly right in that it's never zero.

The recycling of the cars might be improving, but by how much and where those changes would take place is speculation. One thing's nearly for certain... It's going to be at one extreme in California, but at the other end of the scale in Mississippi. 

Basically what I'm saying is that there are things that could be done with the cars without destroying them and like you I think that making emission improvements elsewhere would be a very practical solution. As to whether that will pass political muster is a completely different question, though.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

CARB extends review period until 1/14/16:

http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/2015_12_18%20arb_vw_recall.pdf

God damn it I just want an answer! :banghead:


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> CARB extends review period until 1/14/16:
> 
> http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/2015_12_18%20arb_vw_recall.pdf
> 
> God damn it I just want an answer! :banghead:


Eh, ride the Kaw and relax.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Eh, ride the Kaw and relax.


:laugh: I know its not a huge deal. However, I was already planning to get rid of my car when this whole thing blew up back in September, so I'm stuck in limbo until they get their **** together. All I want is to be able to get rid of it for what it was worth pre-dieselgate.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> All I want is to be able to get rid of it for what it was worth pre-dieselgate.


In all seriousness, what is the difference between a pre-diesel gate and dieselgate out of warranty VW?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> In all seriousness, what is the difference between a pre-diesel gate and dieselgate out of warranty VW?


As of October, the affected TDI models were down 13% from their pre-scandal values. I haven't seen any more updates since then, as it appears KBB Auction data is proprietary so they only release it to the public as they see fit. I could see it going either way. Some may be ready to pay more for a TDI again as they see that perhaps the scandal isn't so bad.

However it's entirely possible sentiment has swung well in the opposite direction as there are multiple headwinds:

1) There is still no sign of a fix in sight, 3 months after VW admitted wrongdoing
2) If anything, it looks even worse based on the recent CARB date extension
3) Further, the Euro 1.6TDI fix which involves a basic screen being added to the intake pipe is considered so difficult that they can't even start until Q3 2016. US models will need a lot more than a screen in the intake.
4) Gasoline continues to get cheaper and cheaper, making TDIs look even less valuable
5) VW resale almost certainly took a hit from all the huge incentives they pushed to try to maintain their sales volume

I feel badly for all the folks who own TDIs and were looking to replace them this fall/winter. Based on the article, it's an average of about $1700 in resale value lost due to the scandal. That's a sucky hit to take, but OTOH $1700 more when you've already lost $12,000 due to regular depreciation over the past 4 years isn't the end of the world.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Silly_me said:


> In all seriousness, what is the difference between a pre-diesel gate and dieselgate out of warranty VW?


Well, for starters, VW can't sell them, so how much do you think they'd give me for trade-in? That is kind of a moot point because I have no plans to buy a new VW.

In CA, I will be required to do whatever fix they come up with, no matter the repercussions. If it kills power, mileage, or both, I can't just choose to not have the fix done.

Since no one knows what the impact of the fix may be, the demand, and therefore value, of my car has been significantly reduced. By how much, I don't know. Maybe it will recover. But I have no effing clue because VW is not releasing any information. So everyone in my shoes has been in the dark for over 3 months now. 

I don't think I am being unreasonable. I did nothing to cause this situation. All I want is for VW to tell me what they're going to do to fix it.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> That's a sucky hit to take, but OTOH $1700 more when you've already lost $12,000 due to regular depreciation over the past 4 years isn't the end of the world.


I get that stance, but if $1700 just disappeared from your bank account for no reason, through no fault of your own, how would you feel?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Well, for starters, VW can't sell them, so how much do you think they'd give me for trade-in? .


VW no

VW dealers yes.




As for values my 2012 has 81k on it.

Last week of july, with a crack in the rear bumper, filthy, modified exhaust (that they deduced 1500-2000 for), bald tires I was offered I think 9500? blanking now on exactly amount.

Got car sorted, cleaned brought it to carmax I think last week of sept maybe first of October i forget, was offered 9000. (car max had a car with 6k more miles and DSG, mine was manual for 18k... :screwy: )

When activating my dealer cards last week I had the VW dealer throw a number at me, 9000 same condition as carmax offer since it. 


I would think that I should have been able to get on the street 12-13k had none of this been released and I got my car cleaned up a few days sooner, so that his is closer to 25% loss. 


Going to go back to the VW dealer after the holidays to see if they will give me 9500 and run my 2 VW dealer cards and give me that money in the check from the car (as in 10,500).


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> :laugh: I know its not a huge deal. However, I was already planning to get rid of my car when this whole thing blew up back in September, so I'm stuck in limbo until they get their **** together. All I want is to be able to get rid of it for what it was worth pre-dieselgate.


you, me, and i'm sure plenty of others. i've got the 2010 super smogmobile  good luck in fixing it vw! At least its not 3 months in the future. Technically under 1 month. Enjoy your christmas, new years and it will be here sooner than later


----------



## Guvnor (Sep 30, 2011)

WTF happened to this....??

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...ers-a-price-guarantee-on-used-diesel-vehicles

I thought by now the dealers could offer a subsidized price on our TDI's. I want to get the hell out and into a GSW with a gasoline engine.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Guvnor said:


> WTF happened to this....??


I'd imagine it pertained to non-sold stock sitting on the dealer lots when the shoe dropped.


----------



## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

Air and water do mix said:


> With NOX being the big polluters and the possibility of these things going where concentrated levels aren't a problem, I don't see how that is _necessarily_ an issue. They're quite a bit lower in CO2 emissions than a comparable gas engine, so that's a big plus. In some places like LA or Mexico City it's a huge deal, as the lay of the land traps pollution and concentrates it where people actually live. In Saudi Arabia that wouldn't be an issue. I don't know how much it would actually add to the world fleet, but you're certainly right in that it's never zero.


Curious about this also. I live in a rural/suburb area, is the extra NOx my car is putting out really going to be harmful to anyone? I assume it works itself out of the atmosphere over time and unless there is a concentration of cars and people in a relatively small area I have a hard time believing its extremely harmful.



phil123 said:


> you, me, and i'm sure plenty of others. i've got the 2010 super smogmobile  good luck in fixing it vw! At least its not 3 months in the future. Technically under 1 month. Enjoy your christmas, new years and it will be here sooner than later


Seems like there is a lot of anxiety about what the fix will be, which is prompting people to try to get out of their cars ASAP. This also is hurting resale value. Like when there is a swing in the stock market and everyone panics and sells. 

Even early TDI motors can pass smog, they do it every year. Worst case scenario is VW gets rid of this emissions bypass, and the cars go back to the MPG the EPA originally predicted they would get. Yes MPG will take a small hit, and it will suck, but long term there are much bigger problems with these cars to worry about than a few MPG (HPFPs and DPFs). 

If you are looking to trade the TDI on another VW, now is a good time. I was just cold called yesterday by the local dealer who wants to buy my car. Obviously they don't really want my car but they really want to sell cars and unless your looking for a Golf R there are some substantial discounts that won't be there forever.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

ticketed2much said:


> If you are looking to trade the TDI on another VW, now is a good time. I was just cold called yesterday by the local dealer who wants to buy my car. Obviously they don't really want my car but they really want to sell cars and unless your looking for a Golf R there are some substantial discounts that won't be there forever.


I'm done with VW. I have owned several, and this is my last. My buddies 2010 just blew its HPFP yesterday, 130k miles. Not waiting for the inevitable, not buying another to find out what the next generation problem is.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> I'm done with VW. I have owned several, and this is my last. My buddies 2010 just blew its HPFP yesterday, 130k miles. Not waiting for the inevitable, not buying another to find out what the next generation problem is.


The problem is your ****ty US diesel fuel (if we're talking blown HPFPs).. You ever wonder why HPFP failures on the exact same engines aren't rampant in other countries? (Canada for example). The SCAR rating of US diesel is way too high.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

MXTHOR3 said:


> The problem is your ****ty US diesel fuel (if we're talking blown HPFPs).. You ever wonder why HPFP failures on the exact same engines aren't rampant in other countries? (Canada for example). The SCAR rating of US diesel is way too high.


Oh look, another VW fan who blames America for VW being unable to design and sell reliable cars here.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> I'm done with VW. I have owned several, and this is my last. My buddies 2010 just blew its HPFP yesterday, 130k miles. Not waiting for the inevitable, not buying another to find out what the next generation problem is.


What was the problem with non-diesel VWs from this generation  Maybe water pumps on the GTIs and Intake manifolds but those were fixed under warranty. 

Seems like a knee-jerk reaction to me to associate emission cheating with a generational problem of VW products. Besides VW cheating NOx emissions, can I ask what the problem was with your TDI?


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> I'm done with VW. I have owned several, and this is my last. My buddies 2010 just blew its HPFP yesterday, 130k miles. Not waiting for the inevitable, not buying another to find out what the next generation problem is.


so wait..... it's got 130,000 miles on it, and you're shocked the fuel pump gave out?  if it were 30k or anywhere below 70k, i'd see your point. 130k miles is a lot of ****ing miles dude. it's like saying "i'm shocked my 70 year old grandma broke her hip on Dancing With the Stars". :laugh:


----------



## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

MXTHOR3 said:


> The problem is your ****ty US diesel fuel (if we're talking blown HPFPs).. You ever wonder why HPFP failures on the exact same engines aren't rampant in other countries? (Canada for example). The SCAR rating of US diesel is way too high.


There are failures in other countries, just not as common as in the US due to crappy fuel. That being said lots of other diesels run on crappy US fuel and don't have widespread failures, some are even other VW Diesel engines.



noatonement said:


> What was the problem with non-diesel VWs from this generation  Maybe water pumps on the GTIs and Intake manifolds but those were fixed under warranty.
> 
> Seems like a knee-jerk reaction to me to associate emission cheating with a generational problem of VW products. Besides VW cheating NOx emissions, can I ask what the problem was with your TDI?


There are lots of problems with the CR TDIs, intercooler icing, HPFPs, and DPFs just to name the big ones. The new TDIs seem better as do the gassers.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> Oh look, another VW fan who blames America for VW being unable to design and sell reliable cars here.


You're right, VW designed a ****tier engine for the US market and gave us Canucks a more reliable one.



ticketed2much said:


> There are failures in other countries, just not as common as in the US due to crappy fuel. That being said lots of other diesels run on crappy US fuel and don't have widespread failures, some are even other VW Diesel engines.


BMW/Mercedes must be running Bosch HPFPs as well (Although I'm not to sure which ones exactly).. Sure was a lot less of a hassle with the old rotary pump and PD VWs (Well unless you had a BRM!)


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

MXTHOR3 said:


> The problem is your ****ty US diesel fuel (if we're talking blown HPFPs).. You ever wonder why HPFP failures on the exact same engines aren't rampant in other countries? (Canada for example). The SCAR rating of US diesel is way too high.


I don't care what the root cause is, I can't do anything about it. 



GoHomeBroke said:


> so wait..... it's got 130,000 miles on it, and you're shocked the fuel pump gave out?  if it were 30k or anywhere below 70k, i'd see your point. 130k miles is a lot of ****ing miles dude. it's like saying "i'm shocked my 70 year old grandma broke her hip on Dancing With the Stars". :laugh:


I get that things fail at that age. The problem is, when the HPFP goes, the entire fuel system is trashed. They have to replace the ENTIRE system, except the fuel tank. That's just bad design. A $5000 repair bill is engine replacement territory, something that should not happen in a modern car at 130k miles.


----------



## Mudbone (Apr 10, 2013)

Yeah, I would be pissed with a $5k repair at any time -- much less at 130k. Not acceptable.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Mudbone said:


> Yeah, I would be pissed with a $5k repair at any time -- much less at 130k. Not acceptable.


Amortized over the course of 130k miles, this is 3.8 cents per mile. I wonder how that relates to what a TDI owner expects to save in fuel costs over that life span?


----------



## pwm (Feb 26, 2009)

MXTHOR3 said:


> The problem is your ****ty US diesel fuel (if we're talking blown HPFPs).. You ever wonder why HPFP failures on the exact same engines aren't rampant in other countries? (Canada for example). The SCAR rating of US diesel is way too high.


I would assume manufacturers are aware of the fuel quality in a market before entering it. I would also assume that a manufacturer would then engineer a solution if they are dead set on entering the market. Unfortunately, much like the cheat code, it appears that VW just didn't care as they were focused on short term gain. 

How much has the replacement and extended warranty of all these HPFP costs them? How much customer goodwill have they burned by stranding people or leaving them big big repair bills if they fall outside the warranty? Is that less than what it would have cost to use a different HPFP in the first place? Something that every other manufacturer selling diesels in the US seems to have figured out?


----------



## Mudbone (Apr 10, 2013)

spockcat said:


> Amortized over the course of 130k miles, this is 3.8 cents per mile. I wonder how that relates to what a TDI owner expects to save in fuel costs over that life span?


Man, I love my TDI and really only have a passing interest in this scandal -- from a business perspective. My VW is my first, and I have very few complaints. 

That said, I have owned probably 20 different cars and trucks over the course of my 58 years (many more if you count tractors and other equipment). None of them have ever required a $5k repair, and I am not expecting my VW to, either. If it does, consider me a dissatisfied customer.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Mudbone said:


> Man, I love my TDI and really only have a passing interest in this scandal -- from a business perspective. My VW is my first, and I have very few complaints.
> 
> That said, I have owned probably 20 different cars and trucks over the course of my 58 years (many more if you count tractors and other equipment). None of them have ever required a $5k repair, and I am not expecting my VW to, either. If it does, consider me a dissatisfied customer.



Have you ever owned a more expensive, luxury vehicle? Because there are many luxury vehicles that make that $5000 repair seem like childs play.

I agree that a $5000 repair bill in a $20k-$25k vehicle is high and shouldn't be the norm. But is it the norm for a 2009-2013 TDI? Or did this one TDI get a bad HPFP or was his HPFP damaged by some bad fuel?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

pwm said:


> How much has the replacement and extended warranty of all these HPFP costs them? How much customer goodwill have they burned by stranding people or leaving them big big repair bills if they fall outside the warranty? Is that less than what it would have cost to use a different HPFP in the first place? Something that every other manufacturer selling diesels in the US seems to have figured out?


On the bright side, if VW buys back all 325,000 of the non-SCR equipped TDIs and either sends them for auto recycling or ships them outside of America, they suddenly don't have to worry about HPFP warranty repair costs anymore for all those cars.



spockcat said:


> Have you ever owned a more expensive, luxury vehicle? Because there are many luxury vehicles that make that $5000 repair seem like childs play.


The Golf/Jetta TDI is an economy car, similar to the Prius. It is not an expensive luxury vehicle. For comparison, you can get a battery rebuild for under $1000 for the Prius and even a dealership new Prius battery is down to something like $2700. According to Consumer Reports data, the failure rate on the 3rd gen packs (model year 2010 and up) is sub 2% a year. Anecdotal evidence is they typically go 250-400k miles depending on usage patterns. $5000 in repairs for a common TDI problem at only 130k miles (with many owner reports at far fewer miles, hence why there's a separate HPFP warranty in the first place) is really bad. The TDI is an economy car.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> I don't care what the root cause is, I can't do anything about it.


Fuel additive would have helped immensely.



AZGolf said:


> On the bright side, if VW buys back all 325,000 of the non-SCR equipped TDIs and either sends them for auto recycling or ships them outside of America, they suddenly don't have to worry about HPFP warranty repair costs anymore for all those cars.


I think VW buying back all those cars is wishful thinking.. It will be interesting to see what happens in the end.


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

GoHomeBroke said:


> so wait..... it's got 130,000 miles on it, and you're shocked the fuel pump gave out?  if it were 30k or anywhere below 70k, i'd see your point. 130k miles is a lot of ****ing miles dude. it's like saying "i'm shocked my 70 year old grandma broke her hip on Dancing With the Stars". :laugh:


130k miles is not "a lot of ****ing miles"...:sly:
Over 200k and I would start to agree.


----------



## dos (Jul 5, 2009)

spockcat said:


> Amortized over the course of 130k miles, this is 3.8 cents per mile. I wonder how that relates to what a TDI owner expects to save in fuel costs over that life span?


Lol, so basically any car that makes it over 100k miles can be considered reliable because you can amortize the cost. B5 S4 turbo failures and B6/B7 S4 timing chains be dammed, you are reliable!


----------



## turbocharged798 (Apr 13, 2010)

The fuel pump failures seem to have no correlation to mileage. Some happen really early and other happen well after 200K.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

dos said:


> Lol, so basically any car that makes it over 100k miles can be considered reliable because you can amortize the cost. B5 S4 turbo failures and B6/B7 S4 timing chains be dammed, you are reliable!


I never used the word reliable. I was just considering the cost of the repair spread over the total mileage to date.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

spockcat said:


> Have you ever owned a more expensive, luxury vehicle? Because there are many luxury vehicles that make that $5000 repair seem like childs play.
> 
> I agree that a $5000 repair bill in a $20k-$25k vehicle is high and shouldn't be the norm. But is it the norm for a 2009-2013 TDI? Or did this one TDI get a bad HPFP or was his HPFP damaged by some bad fuel?


If my AMG required a single $5K repair, I'd be livid. Heck, dropping the trans. to do the rear main seal was "only" $1,500-ish and that was a hard pill to swallow./cheapasswithexpensivetaste


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> If my AMG required a single $5K repair, I'd be livid. Heck, dropping the trans. to do the rear main seal was "only" $1,500-ish and that was a hard pill to swallow./cheapasswithexpensivetaste


I don't know what the repair cost for my Touareg V10 TDI was for 2 new turbos at about 70,000 miles. I guess well over $6k. But I passed that along to a car wholesale company just before they went totally south. I surely didn't want to know and didn't have the time to wait the month or so for it to be fixed because we were moving out of state. But expensive, luxury cars typically come with expensive repair bills.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

NeverEnoughCars said:


> 130k miles is not "a lot of ****ing miles"...:sly:
> Over 200k and I would start to agree.


This is especially true when you look what we're talking about here: economy cars. Nobody buys a TDI for a short commute and occasional use. You buy a TDI if you're racking up lots of highway miles. The target market is middle-aged working men. That demographic is the one which is nearly 19,000 miles a year in government stats:










130,000 miles at 19k a year is less than 7 years. The average car loan nowadays is 7 years and the median age of registered vehicles is 11.5 years. 19 * 11.5 = 218,500 miles. If you say that you expect the car to last a few years beyond the median, say, 15 years then you're looking at 280,000 miles or so. That's what you _used_ to hear TDI fans saying the cars are good to for. The whole point of the TDI is to be a motor suited to racking up lots of miles on the highway. These cars - more than anything in VW's lineup - need to be the most reliable in order to have their engine choice make any sense at all. Based on jnm2.0t's recent Jetta 1.4T thread where he's claiming up to 50mpg though, I'd say that the TDI no longer makes any sense now that the 1.4T exists. VW will forever have an uphill battle as far as PR is concerned for the diesel, and considering the 1.4T can make similar fuel economy, power, and is a cheaper engine I don't know how they can sustain the TDI branding.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

NeverEnoughCars said:


> 130k miles is not "a lot of ****ing miles"...:sly:
> Over 200k and I would start to agree.


the point is, a fuel pump lasting 130k miles is pretty damn good. they're not indestructible. a fuel pump blowing before 70k, even 80k, is absurd. but bitching and moaning and saying "i'm never buying VW again cause my fuel pump blew" when it blows at 130k is hilarious.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

GoHomeBroke said:


> the point is, a fuel pump lasting 130k miles is pretty damn good. they're not indestructible. a fuel pump blowing before 70k, even 80k, is absurd. but bitching and moaning and saying "i'm never buying VW again cause my fuel pump blew" when it blows at 130k is hilarious.


You don't read very well. He said that when the pump goes, the entire fuel system goes with it, causing a repair bill of $5K. That's his issue.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

So the latest news is that VW's most recent actions have been to...

- get an extension from CARB
- hire a new lawyer
- change the company tagline

... which are just 3 different flavors of










VW needs to just leave the US. They really don't have a clue about anything here. (This from a former fan and current TDI driver... sigh.) "Cut'n'Run" is almost never a good solution to a problem, but in this case, it may be the least bitter pill to swallow.


----------



## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

AZGolf said:


> $5000 in repairs for a common TDI problem at only 130k miles (with many owner reports at far fewer miles, hence why there's a separate HPFP warranty in the first place) is really bad. The TDI is an economy car.


Whoa, whoa there, this is not a common problem. The data VW gave NHTSA showed 1% failure rate per year, even less than Prius batteries!



AZGolf said:


> Based on jnm2.0t's recent Jetta 1.4T thread where he's claiming up to 50mpg though, I'd say that the TDI no longer makes any sense now that the 1.4T exists. VW will forever have an uphill battle as far as PR is concerned for the diesel, and considering the 1.4T can make similar fuel economy, power, and is a cheaper engine I don't know how they can sustain the TDI branding.


Diesels are a niche market and will continue to be. If you look at Fuelly it shows real world mileage. New Golf/Jetta 1.4ts are averaging 30 mpg, while TDIs are 40+. Does that savings pan out if you consider the premium price, emissions crap, and diesel fuel premium? Probably a wash so it is really customer preference.


----------



## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

g-man_ae said:


> So the latest news is that VW's most recent actions have been to...
> 
> - get an extension from CARB
> - hire a new lawyer
> ...


Couldn't disagree more. They need to fastrack AWD and get some more SUVs.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

g-man_ae said:


> So the latest news is that VW's most recent actions have been to...
> 
> - get an extension from CARB
> - hire a new lawyer
> ...


Wait what? :screwy:

Your first link shows that VW submitted a plan and is stating that CARB not VW will decide on the plan that was submitted by Mid-January.

Your second link shows that VW hired a lawyer to begin dealing with the compensation and lawsuits resulting in the TDI scandal.

And the third link has absolutely nothing to do with the scandal.

VW is not just dealing with the US, they are also dealing with Europe. To assume that this would be cleaned up in 3 months is laughable at best. I guess the best situation would be for VW to just shut down completely.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

noatonement said:


> To assume that this would be cleaned up in 3 months is laughable at best.


people don't want to wait for a thought out, deliberate, and well orchestrated plan. they want answers, and now! they want action! they want to be compensated for their (and i use the term ironically) hardships.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

GoHomeBroke said:


> people don't want to wait for a thought out, deliberate, and well orchestrated plan. they want answers, and now! they want action! they want to be compensated for their (and i use the term ironically) hardships.


Surely an _outline_ of a plan would've been feasible by now?

Or is this as "endless" as VW's sorry's thus far?


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

g-man_ae said:


> Surely an _outline_ of a plan would've been feasible by now?
> 
> Or is this as "endless" as VW's sorry's thus far?


Maybe you should go reread the links you posted because VW has clearly already submitted a recall plan with CARB which CARB is currently reviewing. Why would VW publicly announce a plan before CARB has approved said plan?

Then again you also must have expected a fix for the diesel problem at most a week after it was announced and compensation for hurt feelings and diminished values of the TDIs in the thousands if not hundreds of thousands.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

noatonement said:


> Maybe you should go reread the links you posted because VW has clearly already submitted a recall plan with CARB which CARB is currently reviewing. Why would VW publicly announce a plan before CARB has approved said plan?
> 
> Then again you also must have expected a fix for the diesel problem at most a week after it was announced and compensation for hurt feelings and diminished values of the TDIs in the thousands if not hundreds of thousands.


Except VW didn't submit it completely, which is why the deadline got extended. It's also a "on or before" not just an on.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/2015_12_18 arb_vw_recall.pdf

My personal thoughts are if CARB was going to say okay with the plan they would do it before and not the "on" date, but time will tell.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

ticketed2much said:


> Diesels are a niche market and will continue to be. If you look at Fuelly it shows real world mileage. New Golf/Jetta 1.4ts are averaging 30 mpg, while TDIs are 40+.


Pattern bias. The driving pattern of a 1.4T buyer is going to be short, low speed trips. It's a base engine. People buying cars with the base engine tend to be people who desire more basic transportation and do shorter trips, closer to home, lower overall speeds. The typical TDI buyer on the other hand is somebody who's selected that motor because they have long highway commutes. Compare the EPA ratings:

Jetta 1.4T: 28/32/39
Jetta TDI: 31/36/45

The 1.4T is only a couple MPG lower than the (illegal) TDI, which may have lower ratings once they are made emissions legal. Looking at fuelly data only shows you that 1.4T buyers largely meet the EPA City style driving and TDI buyers largely meet the EPA highway rating, which is to be expected. Take away the TDI option and switch to a super fuel efficient version of the 1.4T and - OH! - look, they already sell it. It's rated at 42/44/48 mpg.


----------



## turbocharged798 (Apr 13, 2010)

Look at fuelly as that is real world data, not the EPA stuff which is notorious for being inaccurate. 

Overall average for a 2015 Golf TDI is 41.8MPG. The same exact Golf with the 1.4t is getting 30.8. That's a pretty big difference.


----------



## Kumamon (Jun 13, 2012)

turbocharged798 said:


> Look at fuelly as that is real world data, not the EPA stuff which is notorious for being inaccurate.
> 
> Overall average for a 2015 Golf TDI is 41.8MPG. The same exact Golf with the 1.4t is getting 30.8. That's a pretty big difference.


Read the post above yours again.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

g-man_ae said:


> Surely an _outline_ of a plan would've been feasible by now?
> 
> Or is this as "endless" as VW's sorry's thus far?


Poor Alabama.


----------



## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

AZGolf said:


> Pattern bias. The driving pattern of a 1.4T buyer is going to be short, low speed trips. It's a base engine. People buying cars with the base engine tend to be people who desire more basic transportation and do shorter trips, closer to home, lower overall speeds. The typical TDI buyer on the other hand is somebody who's selected that motor because they have long highway commutes. Compare the EPA ratings:
> 
> Jetta 1.4T: 28/32/39
> Jetta TDI: 31/36/45
> ...



EPAs diesel estimates are 5 mpg above the 1.4t, that's more than a few. AFAIK the new diesels don't have the emissions defeat . There's lots of TDIs used for short trips, even in mixed driving I get 40mpg, and I don't have urea injection. I get 45mpg highway and the new engines are 50+ highway. I am not saying the 1.4t isn't a great engine, or that diesels are more practical, but so far diesels are still ahead of the gassers. I would lie to drive them back to back.

Where's a link to this uber efficient 1.4t? Why don't we have it now?


----------



## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

Have there been any talks about potential vw incentives after the current 1k loyalty 1.5k conquest expire Jan 4th?


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

Anyone else checking how fast the drop in KBB value of their TDI is after the emission issue announcement? In my case, compared to October 2015, I see another 11% drop in value. In October, KBB was already claiming about 13% drop in value.


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

Jack-DE said:


> Anyone else checking how fast the drop in KBB value of their TDI is after the emission issue announcement? In my case, compared to October 2015, I see another 11% drop in value. In October, KBB was already claiming about 13% drop in value.


Mine is down around $4k since October. Granted, I've noticed that KBB values usually drop at the beginning of each year regardless of year/make/model.


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

ticketed2much said:


> Whoa, whoa there, this is not a common problem. The data VW gave NHTSA showed 1% failure rate per year, even less than Prius batteries!


Exactly! Let's all just settle down. We have no reason not to trust the data VW provides government agencies.


----------



## PCs & Petroleum (Oct 8, 2007)

I wonder if VW dealers are extremely frustrated with VW corporate. I went into a dealer to look at cars and talk about some options and they weren't really willing to deal and accept the reality of the brand right now. The economy SUCKS here right now, and their brand sucks right now, and they didn't seem very interested in sorting out a lease. 

Also, do VW lease interest rates always suck, or is this a Canada sucks thing? VW wouldn't even budge off a 5% lease rate on a Golf R, which is a ridiculous interest rate on a brand new car. Even the GTI they want 3% when BMW and Lexus are offering .09%


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

R Salesman said:


> Exactly! Let's all just settle down. We have no reason not to trust the data VW provides government agencies.


For those who don't get it, this is funny because VW is currently battling multiple cases where they provided false information to government bodies. The 2.0 diesel cheating, the 3.0 diesel cheating, the CO2 cheating in Europe, the allegations of cheating about their accident statistics reported to the government, and allegations they are disregarding US labor laws at their assembly plant in Tennessee.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Jack-DE said:


> Anyone else checking how fast the drop in KBB value of their TDI is after the emission issue announcement? In my case, compared to October 2015, I see another 11% drop in value. In October, KBB was already claiming about 13% drop in value.


Excellent time to buy a nice used TDI. :thumbup:


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

Uberhare said:


> Excellent time to buy a nice used TDI. :thumbup:


People are idiots if they sell their TDIs for below typical market values because of this fiasco.


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-35227435

US justice department to sue Volkswagen over software that gave misleading diesel emissions readings.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

This just showed up in my inbox:



US EPA said:


> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> January 4, 2016
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

EPA compliance assurance said:


> So far, recall discussions with the company have not produced an acceptable way forward.


This is the most significant part I see. Didn't California also reject VW's initial plan, giving them another 2 months to submit one that CARB deems acceptable? If neither CARB nor EPA accepts any of VW's proposals a solid 3.5 months after VW came out and announced they are working on a fix, that does not bode well for them in the US market. It sounds like they already have Europe covered, but the European standards during the affected years were for more lax than US smog regulations, due to our superior clean air regulations. While previously I'd have said there was only maybe a 2% chance of VW having to buyback the 325,000 non-SCR cars, now I am thinking it's more like a 10% chance they'll have to pick the non-SCR cars up and relocate them all to Europe, where the EU has accepted VWs fixes under their far higher smog output limits for those model years.



MXTHOR3 said:


> People are idiots if they sell their TDIs for below typical market values because of this fiasco.


The scandal hit over 3.5 months ago. A lot of us were expecting there would be a recall announced by now and the stop-sale would be lifted. Instead we see the EPA filing suit officially now as well as issuing a statement that VW still hasn't produced any acceptable fix. How long are owners supposed to wait? A lot of people like to take advantage of year-end deals on cars. That time has come and gone. Many more like to buy a new car with their tax refund money in February-April. It's entirely possible that VW still won't have a fix and there will still be a stop-sale on the cars then too. How long must people wait before being allowed to sell a car they're ready to get rid of?


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

As they say, that escalated quickly.


----------



## David9962000 (Feb 2, 2011)

Delete


----------



## BostonB6 (Nov 16, 2005)

I saw an asking price of $14k on a 2015 Golf TDI with about 30k miles on it. That's like 50% depreciation in one year.


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)

BostonB6 said:


> I saw an asking price of $14k on a 2015 Golf TDI with about 30k miles on it. That's like 50% depreciation in one year.


You should buy it as the seller is clearly a panicking moron.


----------



## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

Where is the fix VW?


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

BostonB6 said:


> I saw an asking price of $14k on a 2015 Golf TDI with about 30k miles on it. That's like 50% depreciation in one year.


buy it! 

or better yet... send me the link so i can buy it :laugh:


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> How long are owners supposed to wait? A lot of people like to take advantage of year-end deals on cars. That time has come and gone. Many more like to buy a new car with their tax refund money in February-April. It's entirely possible that VW still won't have a fix and there will still be a stop-sale on the cars then too. * How long must people wait before being allowed to sell a car they're ready to get rid of?*


you as a private party can sell your car whenever youd like... the stop sale is only for dealers :sly:


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> you as a private party can sell your car whenever youd like... the stop sale is only for dealers :sly:


It is only for VW dealers. The average private party or non-VW dealer can still freely buy/sell/trade any TDI model. There is no problem licensing or registering these vehicles or transferring ownership.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Aonarch said:


> Where is the fix VW?


Some TDI owners in California are reporting that they have received a letter from CARB offering $1500 plus use of a loaner car for CARB to borrow the car for "emissions validation" for three months.

Personally, I wouldn't go for that without knowing exactly what CARB was going to do with the car and how much mileage they were planning to put on it. But be that as it may ... This probably means CARB is planning to install a prototype of whatever fix VW has planned and test it. And if that's the case ... I wouldn't expect a "fix" to be announced until that testing is done, plus some time beforehand for them to get their hands on the vehicles plus some time afterward for them to digest the results.

We knew from the outset that it would take a long time, months, quite likely the better part of a year, to figure this out.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> you as a private party can sell your car whenever youd like... the stop sale is only for dealers :sly:


The stop-sale is what killed resale values though. Once the stop-sale is lifted, resale values will be able to recover. Selling private party means getting killed on resale value since private buyers know that none of the dealers are willing to offer the prices they were back in August of last year. Once the stop-sale is lifted and a fix announced, dealers will be more willing to offer normal prices and that will mean both dealer trade-in and private party resale values will recover. Until the dealers are happy to buy, private party values will continue to be severely depressed thanks to the fact there's so few dealers competing to buy up TDIs right now.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

GoFaster said:


> Personally, I wouldn't go for that without knowing exactly what CARB was going to do with the car and how much mileage they were planning to put on it.


What is the big concern? I've seen plenty of state government cars around here and they are all cared for so well that they are........ still sorta running :laugh:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

BostonB6 said:


> I saw an asking price of $14k on a 2015 Golf TDI with about 30k miles on it. That's like 50% depreciation in one year.


Wasn't a manual S like 22ish? Sure it could have had some options bend been 28 new but it could be only a 30% hit which with 30K on a one year old car is not really horrible.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

One bright spot: VW dealers in our area, notorious for not budging much on prices most of the time, are throwing money at customers.

I'm now the new owner of a 2016 GTI thanks to our dealer giving me $5300+ off sticker (including incentives) + $2000 more than high trade-in value for my 2012 GTI.

And we used the VW "We're sorry we lied to you, TDI buyer" goodwill dealer credit $.

(Of course, we still have an unsellable gross polluter in the fleet...but one thing at a time. )


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

ByronLLN said:


> As they say, that escalated quickly.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

I found a very ominous quote on another website.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...swagen-illegal-emissions-device/#more-1256889

“So far, recall discussions with the company have not produced an acceptable way forward. These discussions will continue in parallel with the federal court action,” Cynthia Giles, assistant administrator for enforcement and compliance assurance at EPA, said in a statement.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> The scandal hit over 3.5 months ago. A lot of us were expecting there would be a recall announced by now and the stop-sale would be lifted. Instead we see the EPA filing suit officially now as well as issuing a statement that VW still hasn't produced any acceptable fix. How long are owners supposed to wait? A lot of people like to take advantage of year-end deals on cars. That time has come and gone. Many more like to buy a new car with their tax refund money in February-April. It's entirely possible that VW still won't have a fix and there will still be a stop-sale on the cars then too. How long must people wait before being allowed to sell a car they're ready to get rid of?


I heard a woman talking on the radio about her particular situation. She was wanting to sell the car before this happened, but her transmission died. (It was a DSG, of course.) The cost to repair it was something like $4,000 (according to the woman, I have no way to verify) so she had a car she couldn't drive, couldn't sell and it needed a great deal of money to fix for a car she no longer wanted and suddenly wasn't worth as much if it _had_ been fixed.

It's situations like this that completely _kills_ customer satisfaction, and I fully understand why.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

Numbersix said:


> One bright spot: VW dealers in our area, notorious for not budging much on prices most of the time, are throwing money at customers.
> 
> I'm now the new owner of a 2016 GTI thanks to our dealer giving me $5300+ off sticker (including incentives) + $2000 more than high trade-in value for my 2012 GTI.
> 
> ...


damn! thats a steal...


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

GoFaster said:


> Some TDI owners in California are reporting that they have received a letter from CARB offering $1500 plus use of a loaner car for CARB to borrow the car for "emissions validation" for three months.


I hope that's true, that sounds like smart, proactive government standing up for Californians. As others have pointed out, CARB must be trying to assess these cars' real-world emissions, and perhaps testing some fix ideas.

If that's true, good on you, California.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> I heard a woman talking on the radio about her particular situation. She was wanting to sell the car before this happened, but her transmission died. (It was a DSG, of course.) The cost to repair it was something like $4,000 (according to the woman, I have no way to verify) so she had a car she couldn't drive, couldn't sell and it needed a great deal of money to fix for a car she no longer wanted and suddenly wasn't worth as much if it _had_ been fixed.
> 
> It's situations like this that completely _kills_ customer satisfaction, and I fully understand why.


I think the $4k transmission repair got rid of her as a VW future customer. The TDI issue didn't change much. 



GoFaster said:


> I found a very ominous quote on another website.
> 
> http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...swagen-illegal-emissions-device/#more-1256889
> 
> “So far, recall discussions with the company have not produced an acceptable way forward. These discussions will continue in parallel with the federal court action,” Cynthia Giles, assistant administrator for enforcement and compliance assurance at EPA, said in a statement.


Current TDI owners who don't plan on getting rid of their cars should be happy to hear the words "federal court". Nothing will happen quickly there.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> The stop-sale is what killed resale values though. Once the stop-sale is lifted, resale values will be able to recover.


Reducing supply kills resale values?


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

<<< looking to buy another used TDI. :thumbup:


----------



## papaskot (Aug 2, 2004)

caj1 said:


> Reducing supply kills resale values?


Well thats a narrow way to view his statement. Its the idea customers get in their head that the vehicle is not allowed to be sold by dealers so something must be wrong with it. Once its OK to sell again, the vehicle is fine and will demand a higher price.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

caj1 said:


> Reducing supply kills resale values?


When demand collapses, prices fall. The demand for used TDIs collapsed because dealers and wholesalers are no longer buying them. The supply of TDIs that owners are trying to get rid of is high, but the demand (dealers and individuals willing to buy them) is low.

Supply high, demand low, prices fall. This matches the real world fall in resale values and asking prices in ads.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> When demand collapses, prices fall. The demand for used TDIs collapsed because dealers and wholesalers are no longer buying them. The supply of TDIs that owners are trying to get rid of is high, but the demand (dealers and individuals willing to buy them) is low.
> 
> Supply high, demand low, prices fall. This matches the real world fall in resale values and asking prices in ads.


Isn't VW also hurting resale value of their non-TDI cars by offering such huge incentives on the vehicles they still can sell? So all VW owners are being hurt in some way


----------



## WRXGuy (Feb 20, 2002)

spockcat said:


> Isn't VW also hurting resale value of their non-TDI cars by offering such huge incentives on the vehicles they still can sell? So all VW owners are being hurt in some way


Ding ding ding! Exactly correct. 

Not good for ANY late-model VW owner.


----------



## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

spockcat said:


> Isn't VW also hurting resale value of their non-TDI cars by offering such huge incentives on the vehicles they still can sell? So all VW owners are being hurt in some way


according to their website, they are not offering anything anymore.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

71DubBugBug said:


> according to their website, they are not offering anything anymore.


Probably short on product now that they have sold off a bunch of cars below wholesale with the big incentives and can't sell any TDI models yet. 

I wonder if they also stopped production on TDI models during this time? It certainly isn't too easy to change the production mix from XX% gas/TDI to 100% gas models either.


----------



## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

spockcat said:


> Probably short on product now that they have sold off a bunch of cars below wholesale with the big incentives and can't sell any TDI models yet.
> 
> I wonder if they also stopped production on TDI models during this time? It certainly isn't too easy to change the production mix from XX% gas/TDI to 100% gas models either.


No, they are not supplying as many to dealers 
Local dealer to me is number 1 volume, usually this time of year they have 200+, they are at less than 100. 

yes the incentives helped move vehicles, but they are not supplying them as they should be, according to sales manager we spoke with


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> This is the most significant part I see. Didn't California also reject VW's initial plan, giving them another 2 months to submit one that CARB deems acceptable? If neither CARB nor EPA accepts any of VW's proposals a solid 3.5 months after VW came out and announced they are working on a fix, that does not bode well for them in the US market. It sounds like they already have Europe covered, but the European standards during the affected years were for more lax than US smog regulations, due to our superior clean air regulations. While previously I'd have said there was only maybe a 2% chance of VW having to buyback the 325,000 non-SCR cars, now I am thinking it's more like a 10% chance they'll have to pick the non-SCR cars up and relocate them all to Europe, where the EU has accepted VWs fixes under their far higher smog output limits for those model years.
> 
> 
> 
> The scandal hit over 3.5 months ago. A lot of us were expecting there would be a recall announced by now and the stop-sale would be lifted. Instead we see the EPA filing suit officially now as well as issuing a statement that VW still hasn't produced any acceptable fix. How long are owners supposed to wait? A lot of people like to take advantage of year-end deals on cars. That time has come and gone. Many more like to buy a new car with their tax refund money in February-April. It's entirely possible that VW still won't have a fix and there will still be a stop-sale on the cars then too. How long must people wait before being allowed to sell a car they're ready to get rid of?


Agreed. People who wanted to get out of the cars at the end of the year before Dieselgate broke are stuck. Their cars lost value, and not even the dealers want them. I feel it only fair that VW compensates these owners. If there is a fix, I do think over the long run the values will recover, but the short term, is there even is a fix is found the value will be below their previous number for quite some time.


----------



## pwm (Feb 26, 2009)

AJB said:


> Agreed. People who wanted to get out of the cars at the end of the year before Dieselgate broke are stuck. Their cars lost value, and not even the dealers want them. I feel it only fair that VW compensates these owners. *If there is a fix, I do think over the long run the values will recover, *but the short term, is there even is a fix is found the value will be below their previous number for quite some time.


I've seen statements before to the effect of the bolded portion above. Not singling you out as I think you agree with me in the second half of the bolded sentence...I just have to wonder how realistic the bolded part is, and to what extent. Mass produced, non-collectible, cheap commuter cars generally don't appreciate in value. Maybe if a fix is instituted the trade in values will stop dropping and may even rise a bit, but will they rise to pre-scandal amounts? If not, what is a reasonable amount? 

How do you quantify the scandal impact vs normal depreciation, and is it reasonable for someone to have to hold on to a car longer than they wanted to in order to recoup the paper losses imposed by VW's irresponsibility? My point is, even if there is a fix and values rise, I don't think they will recover as much as expected, the cars will be a year older and will carry a stigma of one of the "dieselgate cars". It might not matter to enthusiasts who drive them into the ground, but the depreciation hit feel very real to the average customer who bought in to the hype and trades in their car every couple years.

I'm trying to think of another scandal that significantly impacted resale values in the short term that didn't affect them long term once resolved. Are there any? Toyota's UA scandal didn't really hit resale short term. Neither did the GM ignition lock, so I can't really draw comparisons there. Audi's unintended acceleration in the 80s maybe? Anyone remember if those prices tanked and then recovered? Any others I'm missing?


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Without roaming through 200 pages of people talking about what clean really means, has anyone heard anything as to what they will be doing with those of us who leased a vehicle? 

If values drop as people say they are due to the scandal, will the lease contracts be altered?


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

aj4066 said:


> Without roaming through 200 pages of people talking about what clean really means, has anyone heard anything as to what they will be doing with those of us who leased a vehicle?
> 
> If values drop as people say they are due to the scandal, will the lease contracts be altered?


Nothing has been said to recalls in the US, leases, buybacks or much short of giving 1 $500 gift card and 1 $500 vw card.


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

pwm said:


> I've seen statements before to the effect of the bolded portion above. Not singling you out as I think you agree with me in the second half of the bolded sentence...I just have to wonder how realistic the bolded part is, and to what extent. Mass produced, non-collectible, cheap commuter cars generally don't appreciate in value. Maybe if a fix is instituted the trade in values will stop dropping and may even rise a bit, but will they rise to pre-scandal amounts? If not, what is a reasonable amount?
> 
> How do you quantify the scandal impact vs normal depreciation, and is it reasonable for someone to have to hold on to a car longer than they wanted to in order to recoup the paper losses imposed by VW's irresponsibility? My point is, even if there is a fix and values rise, I don't think they will recover as much as expected, the cars will be a year older and will carry a stigma of one of the "dieselgate cars". It might not matter to enthusiasts who drive them into the ground, but *the depreciation hit feel very real to the average customer who bought in to the hype and trades in their car every couple years.*
> 
> I'm trying to think of another scandal that significantly impacted resale values in the short term that didn't affect them long term once resolved. Are there any? Toyota's UA scandal didn't really hit resale short term. Neither did the GM ignition lock, so I can't really draw comparisons there. Audi's unintended acceleration in the 80s maybe? Anyone remember if those prices tanked and then recovered? Any others I'm missing?



Someone who is buying and trading every couple years is not managing money very well anyway, or is wealthy enough that they don't care about resale. Someone with a 3 year trade horizon should be leasing, not purchasing. With almost any new car, the depreciation is most heinous in the first 2-3 years of ownership. Frequent purchase/trade cycle is just setting yourself up for pain.

Really, there are three best ways to deal with cars depending on your financial resources. One, lease. Two, buy new and drive it for something like ten years. Three, buy used, never new. Buying new and trading regularly is the most costly way to deal with vehicles.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

aj4066 said:


> Without roaming through 200 pages of people talking about what clean really means, has anyone heard anything as to what they will be doing with those of us who leased a vehicle?
> 
> If values drop as people say they are due to the scandal, will the lease contracts be altered?


no, all of the VWoA leases are Closed End Leases, meaning the value is locked in the lease contract, and ONLY VW will be upside-down if the value tanks, no risk for the lessee.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

pwm said:


> I've seen statements before to the effect of the bolded portion above. Not singling you out as I think you agree with me in the second half of the bolded sentence...I just have to wonder how realistic the bolded part is, and to what extent. Mass produced, non-collectible, cheap commuter cars generally don't appreciate in value. Maybe if a fix is instituted the trade in values will stop dropping and may even rise a bit, but will they rise to pre-scandal amounts? If not, what is a reasonable amount?
> 
> How do you quantify the scandal impact vs normal depreciation, and is it reasonable for someone to have to hold on to a car longer than they wanted to in order to recoup the paper losses imposed by VW's irresponsibility? My point is, even if there is a fix and values rise, I don't think they will recover as much as expected, the cars will be a year older and will carry a stigma of one of the "dieselgate cars". It might not matter to enthusiasts who drive them into the ground, but the depreciation hit feel very real to the average customer who bought in to the hype and trades in their car every couple years.
> 
> I'm trying to think of another scandal that significantly impacted resale values in the short term that didn't affect them long term once resolved. Are there any? Toyota's UA scandal didn't really hit resale short term. Neither did the GM ignition lock, so I can't really draw comparisons there. Audi's unintended acceleration in the 80s maybe? Anyone remember if those prices tanked and then recovered? Any others I'm missing?


I also wonder how you determine a fair amount to give to the TDI owner. If the owner wants to sell it right after the settlement they will take a big financial hit so they want a large amount of compensation. For the owner that keeps it for 10 years there may be no loss of value from the scandal.



syncro87 said:


> Someone who is buying and trading every couple years is not managing money very well anyway, or is wealthy enough that they don't care about resale. Someone with a 3 year trade horizon should be leasing, not purchasing. With almost any new car, the depreciation is most heinous in the first 2-3 years of ownership. Frequent purchase/trade cycle is just setting yourself up for pain.
> 
> Really, there are three best ways to deal with cars depending on your financial resources. One, lease. Two, buy new and drive it for something like ten years. Three, buy used, never new. Buying new and trading regularly is the most costly way to deal with vehicles.


I am always surprised when a lease customer thinks he doesn't pay depreciation. You lease a car and it has a residual value at the end of the lease, who pays the amount between the sales price and the residual value (many call this depreciation)?


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> I also wonder how you determine a fair amount to give to the TDI owner. If the owner wants to sell it right after the settlement they will take a big financial hit so they want a large amount of compensation. For the owner that keeps it for 10 years there may be no loss of value from the scandal.
> 
> 
> 
> I am always surprised when a lease customer thinks he doesn't pay depreciation. You lease a car and it has a residual value at the end of the lease, who pays the amount between the sales price and the residual value (many call this depreciation)?


Well, of course you are paying depreciation. A car is going to cost you money. The key is, though, that manufacturers often subsidize leases. Also, another major point is that you have the residual value carved in stone at the beginning of the lease term. You aren't subject to market whims, TDI scandals, etc. You are insulated from these petty problems.

I'd argue that the smartest person on the block buys 3-5 year old used cars that have already passed the most severe part of the depreciation cycle. Alternately, buys a new car and drives it for 200k miles and 12 years.

Most people aren't disciplined enough to do that. They buy new and trade every 4-5 years, just about the time their auto loan is paid off. If you're going to do that, you might as well lease, is what I'm saying. The dumbest thing to do with your money is purchase new and trade on a 3 year basis. Buying and worrying about 3 year resale value is silly. If you were worried about resale you wouldn't turn new cars over every 36 months.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

syncro87 said:


> Most people aren't disciplined enough to do that. They buy new and trade every 4-5 years


That was absolutely true as recently as 2006, but is no longer how frequently people trade in their cars that were purchased new. The average term of ownership for new car buyers has increased by 26 months from about 52 months in 2006 to 77.8 months, or 6.5 years as of the most recent data available (July 2015). While that's still a pretty meaty part of the depreciation curve it's a whopping 50% increase in time of ownership! (26/52 = 50%)


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> That was absolutely true as recently as 2006, but is no longer how frequently people trade in their cars that were purchased new. The average term of ownership for new car buyers has increased by 26 months from about 52 months in 2006 to 77.8 months, or 6.5 years as of the most recent data available (July 2015). While that's still a pretty meaty part of the depreciation curve it's a whopping 50% increase in time of ownership! (26/52 = 50%)


Interesting, and thank you for that data.

I'm guessing that term of ownership has increased for two reasons. One, the average transaction price for a new car is probably higher than it was in 2006. Wages are probably pretty flat from 06-today. I haven't had time to look up data on both, but I'm guessing that new car ATP has grown more than wages from 06-now. Hence, finance / ownership terms have increased.


----------



## Ryukein (Dec 10, 2006)

via Automotive News


> LAS VEGAS -- Volkswagen’s brand chief isn’t giving up on diesels in the U.S. market despite the company’s emissions scandal that has undermined the eco-friendly credentials of the niche powertrain.
> 
> Herbert Diess says that diesels will continue to have a role in Volkswagen’s U.S. lineup because, with the latest emissions technologies, diesels can be clean. He also touted the long range and high torque of diesel engines.
> 
> ...


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I hope VWOA buys/trades me my 2012 for a 2016. :thumbup:


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

.yuk. said:


> I hope VWOA buys/trades me my 2012 for a 2016. :thumbup:


No kidding! Last I checked, the KBB value of my 2010 was down to $11k. I wouldn't have very many choices at that price point for a replacement... something clapped out or a poverty spec, former rental Chevy. :laugh:

I had planned on keeping my Jetta 10+ years, however with some hacked emissions fix, the unlikely, but plausible HPFP failure and the DSG (which, to VWs credit, has been bulletproof and a pleasure to have... but after 25 years of driving VWs and the stigma that VW automatics carried for many years is hard to shake), I am getting cold feet.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Geesixty said:


> No kidding! Last I checked, the KBB value of my 2010 was down to $11k. I wouldn't have very many choices at that price point for a replacement... something clapped out or a poverty spec, former rental Chevy. :laugh:
> 
> I had planned on keeping my Jetta 10+ years, however with some hacked emissions fix, the unlikely, but plausible HPFP failure and the *DSG (which, to VWs credit, has been bulletproof and a pleasure to have... but after 25 years of driving VWs and the stigma that VW automatics carried for many years is hard to shake), I am getting cold feet.*


To be honest I worry less about the DSG than most automatic transmissions just because there is a regular service interval of fluid and filter changes, whereas a traditional slushbox is usually never touched and then anytime after 100k it could be a potential time bomb.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

Geesixty said:


> No kidding! Last I checked, the KBB value of my 2010 was down to $11k. I wouldn't have very many choices at that price point for a replacement... something clapped out or a poverty spec, former rental Chevy. :laugh:
> 
> I had planned on keeping my Jetta 10+ years, however with some hacked emissions fix, the unlikely, but plausible HPFP failure and the DSG (which, to VWs credit, has been bulletproof and a pleasure to have... but after 25 years of driving VWs and the stigma that VW automatics carried for many years is hard to shake), I am getting cold feet.


Sounds lucky, our 2010 Jetta TDI is down to about $7k with 70k miles on it


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

phil123 said:


> Sounds lucky, our 2010 Jetta TDI is down to about $7k with 70k miles on it


Who says that car is now worth 7k? KBB? I keep looking at the used TDI market and there's no sign of prices dropping anytime soon. The only people taking baths on these cars are the ones stupidest enough to accept some insanely low trade in offers.

I'd love to jump into a super cheap used JSW TDI, but the prices I'm seeing are in line with what used TDIs should be going for even if there wasn't a 'Dieselgate'


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

MXTHOR3 said:


> Who says that car is now worth 7k? KBB? I keep looking at the used TDI market and there's no sign of prices dropping anytime soon. The only people taking baths on these cars are the ones stupidest enough to accept some insanely low trade in offers.


Yup KBB, but i'm not selling it anytime soon unless VW wants to buy it back.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

phil123 said:


> Yup KBB, but i'm not selling it anytime soon unless VW wants to buy it back.


Good choice, drive the car until it falls apart.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

MXTHOR3 said:


> Who says that car is now worth 7k? KBB? I keep looking at the used TDI market and there's no sign of prices dropping anytime soon. The only people taking baths on these cars are the ones stupidest enough to accept some insanely low trade in offers.
> 
> I'd love to jump into a super cheap used JSW TDI, but the prices I'm seeing are in line with what used TDIs should be going for even if there wasn't a 'Dieselgate'


Asking prices with no takers probably. I bet there are very few TDIs changing hands right now and the ones that do are probably at a very reduced price.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

> Herbert Diess says that diesels will continue to have a role in Volkswagen’s U.S. lineup because, with the latest emissions technologies, diesels can be clean.


They can be clean, we just decided to skip that step. Will be interesting if it turns out they can sell the new cars for the same price, same performance with virtually no downside as it will make the whole thing looking like an even dumber mistake.



.yuk. said:


> I hope VWOA buys/trades me my 2012 for a 2016. :thumbup:


I'm sure they will, they will just need you to finance/put cash in for the difference.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

spockcat said:


> Asking prices with no takers probably. I bet there are very few TDIs changing hands right now and the ones that do are probably at a very reduced price.


They aren't though, that's my point. Everyone is waiting for the fire sale on used TDIs and it's just not happening..


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

MXTHOR3 said:


> They aren't though, that's my point. Everyone is waiting for the fire sale on used TDIs and it's just not happening..


Owners above are complaining about the massively reduced value of their cars but you are saying it's not happening. When I do a search on them there are a lot for sale so many are trying to sell them. 

30,227 VW Diesels for sale 2010-2015 - http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/Used+Cars/Cincinnati+OH-45208?endYear=2015&firstRecord=0&fuelTypeGroup=DSL&listingType=used&listingTypes=used&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=418608912&showcaseOwnerId=58119954&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&startYear=2010&Log=0


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

dmorrow said:


> Owners above are complaining about the massively reduced value of their cars but you are saying it's not happening.


Try buying a used one on a Toyota lot for KBB. :laugh: Autotrader has stated that online 'shopping' for TDIs is up double digits......


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

MXTHOR3 said:


> They aren't though, that's my point. Everyone is waiting for the fire sale on used TDIs and it's just not happening..


what do you mean its not happening? it HAS already happened.
there are people right here in this thread that got used TDI's at big discounts after the dieselgate news hit.

also. 
asking price is not selling price. especially with dealers. example, the van i just bought. they wanted $12k. I paid $8500. 
see that. 
asking price seemed normal/high... but i paid much, much less.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

dmorrow said:


> Owners above are complaining about the massively reduced value of their cars but you are saying it's not happening. When I do a search on them there are a lot for sale so many are trying to sell them.
> 
> 30,227 VW Diesels for sale 2010-2015 - http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/Used+Cars/Cincinnati+OH-45208?endYear=2015&firstRecord=0&fuelTypeGroup=DSL&listingType=used&listingTypes=used&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=418608912&showcaseOwnerId=58119954&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&startYear=2010&Log=0


Owners are complaining about the perceived value KBB is putting on their cars. I'm still waiting for the flood of all these super cheap, low mile TDI's to hit the market. That link you posted isn't helping your argument.



dunhamjr said:


> what do you mean its not happening? it HAS already happened.
> there are people right here in this thread that got used TDI's at big discounts after the dieselgate news hit.
> 
> also.
> ...


They got good deals because people got scared and dumped their cars for much less then what they're really worth. You think that's the norm in this entire scenario? Like I said, I'm waiting for the fire sale. I'd love to take advantage of someone else's stupidity.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

dmorrow said:


> Owners above are complaining about the massively reduced value of their cars but you are saying it's not happening. When I do a search on them there are a lot for sale so many are trying to sell them.
> 
> 30,227 VW Diesels for sale 2010-2015 - http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/Used+Cars/Cincinnati+OH-45208?endYear=2015&firstRecord=0&fuelTypeGroup=DSL&listingType=used&listingTypes=used&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=418608912&showcaseOwnerId=58119954&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&startYear=2010&Log=0


Would have been an interesting statistic if you could plot the number for sale over time.

EDIT: Link was for ALL diesels including trucks. The number of VWs is only 4100. Hard to say if this is high or not. Again, if you had the number for sale over time and the average asking price you might be able to draw some conclusions.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

MXTHOR3 said:


> Owners are complaining about the perceived value KBB is putting on their cars. I'm still waiting for the flood of all these super cheap, low mile TDI's to hit the market. That link you posted isn't helping your argument.


Your opinion is that what the used cars I linked to are listed for much more than the owners say KBB estimates (which they say are drastically lower than they used to be)?


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

dmorrow said:


> Your opinion is that what the used cars I linked to are listed for much more than the owners say KBB estimates (which they say are drastically lower than they used to be)?


Why are you stuck on what KBB says and not what these cars are actually selling for? This has been my point.. KBB can say whatever they want, but used TDI prices are saying something else. Show me the fire sales and super low used TDI prices and I'll agree with you.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

MXTHOR3 said:


> Who says that car is now worth 7k? KBB? I keep looking at the used TDI market and there's no sign of prices dropping anytime soon. The only people taking baths on these cars are the ones stupidest enough to accept some insanely low trade in offers.
> 
> I'd love to jump into a super cheap used JSW TDI, but the prices I'm seeing are in line with what used TDIs should be going for even if there wasn't a 'Dieselgate'





phil123 said:


> Yup KBB, but i'm not selling it anytime soon unless VW wants to buy it back.





MXTHOR3 said:


> Why are you stuck on what KBB says and not what these cars are actually selling for? This has been my point.. KBB can say whatever they want, but used TDI prices are saying something else. Show me the fire sales and super low used TDI prices and I'll agree with you.


People post that KBB says there value has dropped like a rock (KBB calculates used car values) and you say KBB isn't correct but have nothing to show that they are wrong. Where are you getting the information that used car sales prices aren't dropping?


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

dmorrow said:


> People post that KBB says there value has dropped like a rock (KBB calculates used car values) and you say KBB isn't correct but have nothing to show that they are wrong. Where are you getting the information that used car sales prices aren't dropping?


Where are all these tremendous deals on used TDIs? Please, show me the light.


----------



## uncle_scott (Oct 12, 2009)

MXTHOR3 said:


> Where are all these tremendous deals on used TDIs? Please, show me the light.


Sales prices are going to be difficult to determine unless you are a dealer who has exact numbers. KBB and NADA control loan values on the used market that a bank or a credit union is willing to give. Cash deals on cars are rare above inexpensive beater cars (opening up the TLC Financial Lounge...). So, if a bank is only willing to give KBB of NADA value for a used TDI, then there is a high likelihood that amount becomes the value the vehicle will realistically sell for. I know that my 2014 non TDI Golf has seen the paper value drop dramatically over the past few months. So much so that I would be drastically under water on the car if I wanted to sell. I would say that this has absolutely 100% affected Volkswagen pricing in the negative direction. A plus for buyers, and an unfortunate negative for sellers.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

From Yahoo:



> BERLIN (Reuters) - German automaker Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) assumes it will have to buy back about 115,000 cars in the United States as a result of the emissions scandal, a newspaper reported on Thursday.
> 
> Without citing its sources, Germany's daily Sueddeutsche Zeitung said the company expected it would have to either refund the purchase price of a fifth of the diesel vehicles affected or offer a new car at a significant discount.
> 
> ...


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

ticketed2much said:


> EPAs diesel estimates are 5 mpg above the 1.4t, that's more than a few. AFAIK the new diesels don't have the emissions defeat . There's lots of TDIs used for short trips, even in mixed driving I get 40mpg, and I don't have urea injection. I get 45mpg highway and the new engines are 50+ highway. I am not saying the 1.4t isn't a great engine, or that diesels are more practical, but so far diesels are still ahead of the gassers. I would lie to drive them back to back.
> 
> Where's a link to this uber efficient 1.4t? Why don't we have it now?


A lot of small turbo gas engines will get great MPGs, but in city/mixed driving I bet most won't do as well as a diesel. 
But I am very interested in that 1.4t. Not sure what the hold up is. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

So let's say VW is going to need to buy back all the older cars that need retrofits. That news story says "for the purchase price". Soooo I bought my TDI JSW from a friend at a vw dealer post dieselgate. 

*Purchase price*- $13,500
*Buy back dealer was offered by VW post sale to me*- $17,500 (I'm still good friends with these guys, gave me some insight)

Think VW would give us retail prices *PRE-DIESELGATE*? 

This is interesting...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

.yuk. said:


> So let's say VW is going to need to buy back all the older cars that need retrofits. That news story says "for the purchase price". Soooo I bought my TDI JSW from a friend at a vw dealer post dieselgate.
> 
> *Purchase price*- $13,500
> *Buy back dealer was offered by VW post sale to me*- $17,500 (I'm still good friends with these guys, gave me some insight)
> ...


They might make you show you were an owner pre-dieselgate.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

spockcat said:


> They might make you show you were an owner pre-dieselgate.


^Yep. Some of the buybacks (older models 09s and 10s) with higher miles VW actually may not lose money on if they give the market value pre-dieselgate on a buyback - It would balance out the 13s and 14s etc that people would want to offload and have bought back. Considering the amount of tech hours, parts, retrofitting time etc for a proposed "fix" and the extended warranty that would have to be offered and the plausibility that components would still fail and possibly more often over a longer period of miles/time, buyback doesn't seem so bad of an option for VW and for the customers that don't want the TDI anymore, in general.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

That would suck!


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

ticketed2much said:


> Where's a link to this uber efficient 1.4t? Why don't we have it now?


I missed this until somebody else quoted it. Here's a link to the 48mpg VW 1.4T (gasoline):

http://www.vw.com/models/jetta/trims/2016/hybrid-sel-premium-trim/


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

A Bailout for Volkswagen? Congress Wants to Do Something Absolutely Crazy



TFT said:


> When Volkswagen admitted to cheating on air pollution standards tests in September, it opened itself up not only to government punishment, but lawsuits from 500,000 U.S. purchasers of its “clean” diesel vehicles. Volkswagen has yet to fix the vehicles to bring them into emissions compliance, and even if it does, that will likely create a lower-performance car than consumers paid for.
> 
> “Throughout these years, Volkswagen has been lying to us,” says Rebecca Kaplan, an at-large member of the Oakland City Council, who has been active in reducing carbon emissions in her city. “They’ve been undermining the very things that I have been fighting for.” Kaplan, who has stopped driving her non-compliant VW Golf TDI and rejected a lowball trade-in offer from the dealer, has joined one of hundreds of class-action suits against the automaker, likely to be consolidated into a large multi-district case.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

PlatinumGLS said:


> A Bailout for Volkswagen? Congress Wants to Do Something Absolutely Crazy




Amazing to think that the congressman who introduced that bill KNEW about the VW Dieselgate scandal on April 22, 2015.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

spockcat said:


> Amazing to think that the congressman who introduced that bill KNEW about the VW Dieselgate scandal on April 22, 2015.


Political agendas don't require facts.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

article said:


> “Throughout these years, Volkswagen has been lying to us,” says Rebecca Kaplan, an at-large member of the Oakland City Council, who has been active in *reducing carbon emissions* in her city. “They’ve been undermining the very* things that I have been fighting for*.”



Lying yes.

Undermining her fight to lower carbon emissions.. Um has she actually checked what the problem is?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> Lying yes.
> 
> Undermining her fight to lower carbon emissions.. Um has she actually checked what the problem is?


See my reply above yours.


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

So, according to VW CEO Matthias Mueller, "VW didn't lie." 



VW said:


> The North American International Auto Show is a place where car industry gathers to celebrate — and in recent years to apologize. At this year's show in Detroit, it was Volkswagen CEO Matthias Mueller's turn to face the media.
> 
> In a prepared statement, Mueller said of the emissions-cheat scandal, "We all know that we have let down customers, authorities, regulators and the general public here in America, too." He added, "We are — I am — truly sorry for that. And I would like to apologize once again for what went wrong with Volkswagen."
> 
> ...


Well, I don't know about you folk, but this straight up pisses me off. This isn't a lost in translation thing. I was holding out on joining a class action, but this sentiment from the CEO only gives me reason to join. The lawyers are going to have a field day with VW now.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

R Salesman said:


> So, according to VW CEO Matthias Mueller, "VW didn't lie."
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I don't know about you folk, but this straight up pisses me off. This isn't a lost in translation thing. I was holding out on joining a class action, but this sentiment from the CEO only gives me reason to join. The lawyers are going to have a field day with VW now.


Yeah, I saw that and was like " well **** this guy". What a doofus, and what an asinine company outlook on the situation. They should trash the whole company and just start over.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

FYI - today I got the letter from VWoA for our 12 TDI TReg being included in the recall, and getting the loyalty cards......I did register so I guess the 3.0L V6 TDI is now officially part of the recall.


----------



## Hawk (May 7, 2010)

> *NPR:* You said this was a technical problem, but the American people feel this is not a technical problem, this is an ethical problem that's deep inside the company. How do you change that perception in the U.S.?
> 
> *Matthias Mueller:* Frankly spoken, it was a technical problem. We made a default, we had a ... not the right interpretation of the American law. And we had some targets for our technical engineers, and they solved this problem and reached targets with some software solutions which haven't been compatible to the American law. That is the thing. And the other question you mentioned — it was an ethical problem? I cannot understand why you say that.
> 
> ...


WOW. What a dick. :thumbdown: :facepalm:


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

GoHomePossum said:


> Yeah, I saw that and was like " well **** this guy". What a doofus, and what an asinine company outlook on the situation. They should trash the whole company and just start over.


Maybe just sell cars to 3rd world countries ? He certainly isn't helping VW's image in America. He might not last long as CEO w/ this kind of BS. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

Hawk said:


> WOW. What a dick. :thumbdown: :facepalm:


The "no speakum english" defense.  :laugh:


----------



## Double-V (Mar 20, 2001)

To be fair, he is probably distracted with the constant worry that roving gangs of Muslims are trying to finger-bang his daughter in public.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

DJMRDARK said:


> The "no speakum english" defense.  :laugh:


EPA: "VW can you explain why your diesel cars are polluting vastly more on the road than on the dyno?"

VW: "No hablo ingles!" :laugh:


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Double-V said:


> To be fair, he is probably distracted with the constant worry that roving gangs of Muslims are trying to finger-bang his daughter in public.


This is probably a post worth apologizing for, given that some of us here are decent, law-abiding Muslims.


----------



## VW_Enthu1 (Oct 23, 2004)

Hawk said:


> WOW. What a dick. :thumbdown: :facepalm:


Agreed. What an arrogant a**. This is yet _another_ example of VW management arrogance. They don't even know how to act when fixing a major screw up...they STILL don't get it.

Good luck VW. That was the last straw. Hope you find a lot of someone else's to buy your cars because I'm not considering you ever again..(not that you honestly care)

Later edit: Wowwwwwww what a screw up on his part. I just read the whole interview. VW came back to NPR the next day - the PR people and lawyers having realized what he had just done - and I'm sure directed him regarding the redo. He's the new CEO??!! Good move idiot..


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

> NPR: You said this was a technical problem, but the American people feel this is not a technical problem, this is an ethical problem that's deep inside the company. How do you change that perception in the U.S.?
> 
> Matthias Mueller: Frankly spoken, it was a technical problem. We made a default, we had a ... not the right interpretation of the American law. And we had some targets for our technical engineers, and they solved this problem and reached targets with some software solutions which haven't been compatible to the American law. That is the thing. And the other question you mentioned — it was an ethical problem? I cannot understand why you say that.
> 
> ...


Sounds like VW was "teaching to the test". Or at least that is what Mueller is trying to claim?


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

Sounds like what someone said way earlier in the thread (about 200 pages ago :laugh is pretty accurate as far as the business culture in Germany interpreting laws differently as far as following the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. Something close to that.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

noatonement said:


> Sounds like what someone said way earlier in the thread (about 200 pages ago :laugh is pretty accurate as far as the business culture in Germany interpreting laws differently as far as following the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. Something close to that.


 Not a chance. CARB and the EPA asked VW to explain why their TDI's were polluting far in excess of allowable amounts on the road while within allowable amounts on the dyno.

VW tried to claim that America didn't know how to test properly, then tried to claim that the tests weren't representative of the typical road condition. 

Meanwhile we know they knew for literally years that they were running a cheater mode. They had been told by Bosch that the dual mode wasn't legal, and clearly many people knew about it. 

There was nothing about this that had anything to do with spirit of the law vs letter.

They were using unapproved emissions controls, because they were unable to comply with EPA requirements and still meet their metrics for performance, or emissions controls longevity.

This was plain fraud no if ands or buts about it. VW deserves everything they get and more.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

GoHomePossum said:


> Yeah, I saw that and was like " well **** this guy". What a doofus, and what an asinine company outlook on the situation. They should trash the whole company and just start over.


It leaves you with a broken feeling, like your father or your dog just died


----------



## grounded87 (Nov 5, 2002)

noatonement said:


> Sounds like what someone said way earlier in the thread (about 200 pages ago :laugh is pretty accurate as far as the business culture in Germany interpreting laws differently as far as following the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. Something close to that.


Yup! atomicalex was spot on. eace:

Well done Katherine! :beer:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

VW_Enthu1 said:


> Agreed. What an arrogant a**. This is yet _another_ example of VW management arrogance. They don't even know how to act when fixing a major screw up...they STILL don't get it.
> 
> Good luck VW. That was the last straw. Hope you find a lot of someone else's to buy your cars because I'm not considering you ever again..(not that you honestly care)
> 
> Later edit: Wowwwwwww what a screw up on his part. I just read the whole interview. VW came back to NPR the next day - the PR people and lawyers having realized what he had just done - and I'm sure directed him regarding the redo. He's the new CEO??!! Good move idiot..


Yeah if anybody was hoping the new CEO was going to be different from the old one, this interview removed all hope of that happening. He sounds like he's just repeating the party line of "We passed the US test and didn't lie about it. The problem is America expecting emissions on the road to be similar to the test."


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

...Canada twiddling their thumbs waiting for US lead on fix & fines,

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/canada-vw-emissions-neil-macdonald-1.3399437


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> The problem is America expecting emissions on the road to be similar to the test."


Oy... If the car was able to pass the FTP test without the cheat, and only fail out on the road, he'd have a point. Any test that's based on emission per mile, and not ppm exhaust concentration does depend on how the vehicle is driven, and how much fuel is burned. But they needed to cheat to even pass the FTP75 protocol, so, yeah... that's not a good position for a new guy to take.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> Yeah if anybody was hoping the new CEO was going to be different from the old one, this interview removed all hope of that happening. He sounds like he's just repeating the party line of "We passed the US test and didn't lie about it. The problem is America expecting emissions on the road to be similar to the test."


The generals will tow the big boss' line regardless what they themselves might believe... when the boss rules with an iron fist. 

Seriously... for anybody with half a brain to spout such BS response tells me that is what the big boss decreed. It's that or being tossed under the bus. I think this way... maybe he hopes that the heat placed on him will pressure mgt to retire him with a golden parachute so he can be done with the whole charade.


----------



## dubdaze68 (Oct 29, 2001)

Here's the thing...In a German's mind, or an engineer's mind....They did everything to the letter of the law. To sell the cars, they had to pass a test. So, they engineered the car to pass the test. If you think they cheated, just think of it as an "open book test". You can't cheat if you have the answers, no matter how your thought process got you there.

It is quite the German thing. Many racing rules have had to be changed due to companies like Porsche. Because, they look at a rule book, and interpret it in a way most beneficial to them.

My most favorite example is the 935/78. Fender flares were only legal to cover the wheels. So, Porsche designed them as aerodynamic aids, even massively extending the tail as part of the rear flares. The original tail was still there underneath. The rules stated that the stock back window had to be in place, so they totally built a roof over the back window and added Perspex over the original, leading to the new rear tail, to reduce drag. BMW got a pass to cut the floorpan for exhaust clearance, so Porsche used that same loophole to construct the floorpan from fiberglass and raised it three+ inches for lowering and low drag aero for Mulsanne.

What are you left with? A car built to the letter of the law, but not the spirit. There really is no difference, in my mind.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

dubdaze68 said:


> What are you left with? A car built to the letter of the law, but not the spirit. There really is no difference, in my mind.


But they knew the difference!!! _whine whine whine whine whine rabble rabble rabble_ won't someone please think of the children!

:laugh:


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

I wonder if the additional catalytic converter comes with a new DPF? I'm sure I'm going ot need one soon on our TDI. haha


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

dubdaze68 said:


> Here's the thing...In a German's mind, or an engineer's mind....They did everything to the letter of the law. To sell the cars, they had to pass a test. So, they engineered the car to pass the test. If you think they cheated, just think of it as an "open book test". You can't cheat if you have the answers, no matter how your thought process got you there.


I get what you are saying, but many engineers told them that they were in the wrong. This isn't a racing league where they pull into the pits after a race and say the car is lower because the pad above the spring somehow fell out and they didn't intend an advantage. 

They built a car that wasn't complaint. They knew full well what they were doing. 

Typically I am not a fan of NPR. That interview they did with VW though is pretty good, and VW seems like they are pissed off they got caught. My only thought is, whats next? 

Also, a cat converter is the fix? After 400k cars being wrongfully put onto the roads and a fix comes with a new cat? Something seems fishy to me. :sly:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> Also, a cat converter is the fix? After 400k cars being wrongfully put onto the roads and a fix comes with a new cat? Something seems fishy to me. :sly:


We still don't know what the details of the new aftertreatment system is, if it's a larger NOx trap, additional catalyst, new DPF, or some/all of the above. It sounds like they've already ruled out the idea of adding Adblue to the cars that didn't come with it from the factory. None of that however changes the fact they are already paying the price in terms of lost sales and lost brand value. The "clean diesel" marketing campaign is forever ruined for the entire VW family of brands. There will also be fines and we all know there's hundreds of lawsuits. So rest assured, it's not like a new exhaust suddenly makes everything go away. I think a lot of us want to see the affected cars either fixed or removed from service some time during 2016. The legal stuff may drag on for many years afterwards, and is really of almost no concern to the individual consumer until it gets resolved.


----------



## dubdaze68 (Oct 29, 2001)

But it was compliant. It was compliant to the test that was required by the EPA for sale in the US. Which, it passed, year after year. Remember, it wasn't the EPA that caught it. It was an independent lab funded by a university.

I have to wonder if the reason the EPA is being so snippety is that THEY got caught blindfolded, or that their tests were flawed and two-dimensional.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

dubdaze68 said:


> But it was compliant. It was compliant to the test that was required by the EPA for sale in the US. Which, it passed, year after year. Remember, it wasn't the EPA that caught it. It was an independent lab funded by a university.
> 
> I have to wonder if the reason the EPA is being so snippety is that THEY got caught blindfolded, or that their tests were flawed and two-dimensional.


Stop perpetuating this lie. It was not compliant at all. All emissions software must be submitted to the EPA for approval. Running a second unapproved software mode automatically made the cars non-compliant.

You sound like the VW reps with that nonsense.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

dubdaze68 said:


> But it was compliant. It was compliant to the test that was required by the EPA for sale in the US. Which, it passed, year after year. Remember, it wasn't the EPA that caught it. It was an independent lab funded by a university.
> 
> I have to wonder if the reason the EPA is being so snippety is that THEY got caught blindfolded, or that their tests were flawed and two-dimensional.


If you think that some random professor grabbed a TDI and began testing it for the hell of it, you should reconsider how corrupt corporations operate. Everyone does something for money (on both ends of the spectrum). 

Flags were thrown internally at the EPA and money was passed through some channels to do the testing as third party. Remember, VW also rejected the Unions many times. I realize my thoughts are all conspiracy, but to think they 'just got caught' is ludicrous.


----------



## VW_Enthu1 (Oct 23, 2004)

dubdaze68 said:


> But it was compliant. It was compliant to the test that was required by the EPA for sale in the US. Which, it passed, year after year. Remember, it wasn't the EPA that caught it. It was an independent lab funded by a university.
> 
> I have to wonder if the reason the EPA is being so snippety is that THEY got caught blindfolded, or that their tests were flawed and two-dimensional.


Guys, we've got to stop this nonsense 'cause its making us look realllll bad. I'm a VW fan as much as anyone else for some of their vehicles, but I'm not going to try to bend the wording of the law to cover VW and their lunacy and make me feel better. They ****ed-up. They know it. They admitted it. They realized their design could NOT meet US requirements so they cheated on it. This is not up for debate - they already admitted it.

I've put up with a lot of VW service and quality *ull*hit over the years, but I'm not going to cover for them on _this one_. Any of you ever sit on the side of an interstate in south GA with your family at 3:00 AM with a blown trans on a 10K mile basically new Eurovan and listen to your wife sarcastically say "oh yeah, this was a great idea"? Yeah...I have...so I'm qualified to have a personal take on VW's. I'll cover them to a point because I love the vans, but I'm not covering them on_* this.*_

We have to just face it: they're clueless.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

VW_Enthu1 said:


> We have to just face it: they're clueless.


I have to agree. Evidently, VW is meeting with the EPA in the coming days to discuss the fix, but is unsure of the outcome. Typically, CEO's don't meet with govt officials unless the details have been hashed out before hand. Mr Mueller just went on the record and said they don't know how things will pan out after the meeting. 

Like I said, a simple additional cat converter was WAY too simple of a fix. They don't have a clue as to how to fix this issue.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

dubdaze68 said:


> Here's the thing...In a German's mind, or an engineer's mind....They did everything to the letter of the law.


Bullsh*t.

MB and BMW are German as well, no? And yet only VW did this?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

vwwtchr said:


> Stop perpetuating this lie. It was not compliant at all. All emissions software must be submitted to the EPA for approval. Running a second unapproved software mode automatically made the cars non-compliant.
> 
> You sound like the VW reps with that nonsense.


That is the correct answer. To say the cars were "letter of the law" compliant isn't true. The EPA has already dealt with "defeat devices" for decades now - much longer than Europeans, since we're so far ahead of Europe in terms of clean air legislation. The letter of the law says that all physical and software code that alters the performance and programming of the emissions has to be disclosed. VW refused to disclose they had alternate software programming until September 2015. VW did not comply with the letter of the law because they did not disclose that they had multiple software modes. The information from Bosch states that Bosch (VW's supplier) absolutely told the VW engineers that they needed to make sure the secondary test mode was never used on production cars because it's not legal. VW went ahead with the switchable multi-mode ECU anyway, even though the law says they must disclose it and their supplier told them outright it wasn't legal without disclosure.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

aj4066 said:


> If you think that some random professor grabbed a TDI and began testing it for the hell of it, you should reconsider how corrupt corporations operate. Everyone does something for money (on both ends of the spectrum).
> 
> Flags were thrown internally at the EPA and money was passed through some channels to do the testing as third party. Remember, VW also rejected the Unions many times. I realize my thoughts are all conspiracy, but to think they 'just got caught' is ludicrous.


You need to read up on the matter. This came about because a European trade group wanted to prove European car manufacturers could produce cleaner diesels for Europe, just like they did for America :laugh:.

To do so they wanted to take several European diesel vehicles on the road over several thousand miles and show they could meet the more stringent emissions standards. VW got caught because the on the road testing showed massively higher pollution levels vs tested levels.

No conspiracy here. In fact the trade group was trying to extoll the virtues of VW's "clean diesel"


----------



## VW_Enthu1 (Oct 23, 2004)

Oopsie.

http://fortune.com/2016/01/12/matthias-mullers-we-didnt-lie-claim-puts-vw-in-a-spin/
http://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Jepsen-blasts-VW-chief-6753539.php

I dooooon't think everyone is quite yet understanding how big of a PR/legal screw-up this was..

Its all posturing. VW - as many people thought - still doesn't believe they did anything wrong and that they are above the law.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

VW_Enthu1 said:


> Oopsie.
> 
> http://fortune.com/2016/01/12/matthias-mullers-we-didnt-lie-claim-puts-vw-in-a-spin/
> 
> ...


From that article:



> After that, he returned faithfully to the line that he and board chairman Hans-Dieter Pötsch had presented at their press conference in December, in which they blamed a culture of tolerance for wrongdoing among sections of the company which had led to a chain of mistakes that started some 10 years ago.


When the IRS catches someone with a mistake on their taxes, you get penalties AND interest. Is the government going to add interest to the penalties they eventually assess against VW? They certainly should.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

already posted?

Jan 12 (Reuters) - The California Air Resources Board said on Tuesday it had rejected Volkswagen AG's plan to fix 2.0 liter diesel cars with software that allow them to emit up to 40 times legally allowable pollution.

The state said VW's proposed fix was not adequate or fast enough, and that it would continue its investigation as well as talks with VW to find a fix.

The state did not assess any immediate penalties, but it issued a new notice that VW had violated California air quality regulations.

VW CEO Matthias Muller is meeting with Environmental Protection Agency chief Gina McCarthy on Wednesday to discuss the emissions scandal that impacts nearly 600,000 vehicles in the United States and up to 11 million vehicles worldwide. (Reporting by David Shepardson)


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> Like I said, a simple additional cat converter was WAY too simple of a fix. They don't have a clue as to how to fix this issue.


Oh, I'm certain they do. This isn't rocket science since the technology existed way back then.

The problem is they cannot AFFORD to fix this. Or don't want to tear a gaping hole in their wallet doing so.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Oh snap:

http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/newsrelease.php?id=780

Essentially, CARB has flat out rejected VW's plan. From the sound of the documents, it wasn't much of a plan to begin with. This seems like it's really bad news. Unfortunately, they have kicked the can further down the road for people like me who are in limbo with their vehicles. :banghead:

Edit: The Notice of Violation contains a lot of interesting information in it.


----------



## VW_Enthu1 (Oct 23, 2004)

What cracks me up about this that people aren't getting just yet is that if he slipped and said THIS much damaging information in an interview when he was off-guard...

...what do you think they are saying off the record in their internal meetings?


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Oh snap:
> 
> http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/newsrelease.php?id=780
> 
> ...


^Thanks for posting that, this was the most interesting as it seems like they are really clobbering together fixes and have no idea of the impact of anything proposed, especially to the health of the engine:

Middle of page 3
http://arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_info/rejection_vw.pdf


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Oh snap:
> 
> http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/newsrelease.php?id=780
> 
> Essentially, CARB has flat out rejected VW's plan..


Good. **** Volkswagen. They think they can just sit around diddling themselves and the problem they created will just go away.


----------



## Charles Devine (Aug 22, 2007)

So do I call vw and ask for a buyback now? I love my car but worried after all this my car wont be the awesome product I purchased back in 2013. With this rejection of software fix I can only assume a physical retrofit is going to be required if I read that correctly.

-Charles


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Charles Devine said:


> So do I call vw and ask for a buyback now? I love my car but worried after all this my car wont be the awesome product I purchased back in 2013. With this rejection of software fix I can only assume a physical retrofit is going to be required if I read that correctly.
> 
> -Charles


The letter didn't specify what their proposed fix was. It might have been hardware. VW basically didn't give enough data to CARB to approve the fix, and now CARB is moving to enforce their regulations. Meanwhile, we're left guessing as to what - and when - VW is going to do about it. 4 months now. VW is shooting themselves in the foot every day they let this drag on.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

GoHomePossum said:


> Good. **** Volkswagen. They think they can just sit around diddling themselves and the problem they created will just go away.


It worked for Europe! There's a link above that says 600,000 in the US and 11 million worldwide, but the majority of those 11 million are in the EU, and VW's fix for Europe was approved on December 18th. Under EU rules, because Germany accepted it, all 28 nations of the EU have to accept it under the rules of the EU. Maybe VW figured that if it was so easy to sweep it under the rug for the 28-nation EU, then those dumb Americans wouldn't be any trouble either.



renegadeofpunk03 said:


> 4 months now. VW is shooting themselves in the foot every day they let this drag on.


Officially we don't hit the 4 month mark until next Monday, but yeah it's _almost_ been 4 months now.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

VW_Enthu1 said:


> Oopsie.
> 
> http://fortune.com/2016/01/12/matthias-mullers-we-didnt-lie-claim-puts-vw-in-a-spin/
> http://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Jepsen-blasts-VW-chief-6753539.php
> ...


Surprised Muller (VW CEO) could be this dumb. Believe what you want but figure out what to say and what needs to be said before you answer the question - 



> Müller initially told NPR that there was no ethical problem at VW and that it hadn’t lied to U.S. regulators about the ‘defeat devices’ installed in its cars to mask the true level of harmful emissions. Instead, “it was a technical problem,” he said.
> 
> “We had some targets for our technical engineers, and they solved this problem and reached targets with some software solutions that haven’t been compatible to the American law,” Müller continued.* “We didn’t lie. We didn’t understand the question first.”*
> 
> VW’s communications department appears to have taken fright at the comments, as they asked NPR for a chance to put the record straight immediately. Sure enough, *in a second interview, Müller was back on message, saying: “Yeah, the situation is, first of all we fully accept the violation. There is no doubt about it.”*


"Ok, I would like to be asked the same question again as I now understand what I believe."


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

VW_Enthu1 said:


> ...what do you think they are saying off the record in their internal meetings?


_*Klaus:* Sire, hath thou seeneth the turmoil in the British Colonies?

*Matthias* Ja, reading through the teenage angst riddled Car Lounge it all seems clear to me on the direction to which we should take.

*Ludwig* My liege, surely there is another way in which we can remedy our woes and strengthen beachhead!

*Matthias* Und what would you have your Generalfeldmarschall do Ludwig? We already attempted sleight of hand by poisoning their poor and minority of their auto factory workers with leaded water! We even had students from Virginia test it! 

*Klaus* We tried telling you that not only are the factories of our enemies no longer in Flint, you failed to poison our demographic; suburbanites who drink craft beer or can tell a California Cabernet from an Australian. We must create a havoc suitable for them to take notice away from us.

*Matthias* And destroy our customer base? Nein!

*Klaus* We have no customer base now sire! People are dying from our cars! All those poor pedestrians runneth over due to our inability to put slow speed braking sensors on our cars!

*Ludwig* Er, Klaus, wrong issue.

*Klaus* What was the issue at hand again?

*Matthias* DIESELTOR!

*Klaus* My apologies my benevolent leader.

*Ludwig* How about a buyback? End all this nonsense here and now?

*Matthias* I told you, BIGGER exhaust testicles. And stickers of green leaves applied to the windows, the volk in California love that crap.

*Klaus* Just don't say the leaves are 'clean'.

*Ludwig* My liege, we have evaluated CARB's attack and there is a risk with just using bigger catalytic converters. Perhaps we should tell them we did lie? Eat, as the Yankees say, crow?

*Matthias* You fool! And admit defeat? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances.

*Ludwig* As you wish mein master.

*Klaus* What if we told them the coilpacks were not our fault but our suppliers fault?_


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

rich! said:


> already posted?
> 
> Jan 12 (Reuters) - The California Air Resources Board said on Tuesday it had rejected Volkswagen AG's plan to fix 2.0 liter diesel cars with software that allow them to emit up to 40 times legally allowable pollution.
> 
> (*Reporting* by David Shepardson)


If that is considered reporting then this guys head is buried in the sand next to the VW boards.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> *Matthias* You fool! And admit defeat? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances.


Grand Moff Matthias? :laugh:


----------



## Seabird (Feb 8, 2002)

Silly_me said:


> _*Klaus:* Sire, hath thou seeneth the turmoil in the British Colonies?
> etc..._



Oh my god! :laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

I would love to be a fly on the wall for that VW-EPA meeting tomorrow.

They should make it a PPV and use that money to buy powerball tickets, use the winning powerball money to buyback cars.


You're welcome, VW.


----------



## Reisner (Dec 31, 2015)

With their cheating, denying, obfuscations, and hindrance, something tells me that the penalty imposed by the EPA, Justice & the federal judge overseeing this is going to be in the upper limit of what's currently being estimated. Not sure how an entire upper management could be so dense for so long but hard lessons will be learned from this fiasco.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Reisner said:


> Not sure how an entire upper management could be so dense for so long but hard lessons will be learned from this fiasco.


It's like they WANT to go bankrupt :facepalm:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

GoHomePossum said:


> It's like they WANT to go bankrupt :facepalm:


Thats how they get bailouts. :laugh:


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

aj4066 said:


> Thats how they get bailouts. :laugh:


:laugh:


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

aj4066 said:


> Thats how they get bailouts. :laugh:


With hundreds of billions in fines, we could wipe out the trade deficit between the US and Germany. opcorn:


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> *Klaus* We have no customer base now sire! People are dying from our cars! All those poor pedestrians runneth over due to our inability to put slow speed braking sensors on our cars!
> 
> *Ludwig* Er, Klaus, wrong issue.
> 
> ...


I lost it


----------



## Ajlal24 (Mar 7, 2007)

So I receive a letter in the mail from CARB/EPA stating that they'd like for me to volunteer my Golf TDI for a testing program in El Monte, CA. Looks like they're looking for actual real world vehicles that are driven in the state of CA to conduct additional testing a visualize whether the proposed fix is long term viable. The premise of the letter stated that all repairs done to the vehicle will be at the expense of CARB/EPA - not sure what they're trying to retrofit here.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

Ajlal24 said:


> So I receive a letter in the mail from CARB/EPA stating that they'd like for me to volunteer my Golf TDI for a testing program in El Monte, CA. Looks like they're looking for actual real world vehicles that are driven in the state of CA to conduct additional testing a visualize whether the proposed fix is long term viable. The premise of the letter stated that all repairs done to the vehicle will be at the expense of CARB/EPA - not sure what they're trying to retrofit here.


You in a position to do it?


----------



## Ajlal24 (Mar 7, 2007)

No, I drive the car daily and there was no regard into whether a replacement vehicle would be given during the time EPA/CARB had my vehicle. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

Aww man, I thought the news from the meeting today was dropped when I saw this bumped. Wonder when we will hear what happened?


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Ajlal24 said:


> So I receive a letter in the mail from CARB/EPA stating that they'd like for me to volunteer my Golf TDI for a testing program in El Monte, CA. Looks like they're looking for actual real world vehicles that are driven in the state of CA to conduct additional testing a visualize whether the proposed fix is long term viable. The premise of the letter stated that all repairs done to the vehicle will be at the expense of CARB/EPA - not sure what they're trying to retrofit here.


Ask LOTS of questions before you submit your vehicle. This is not their usual assessment (approx 1 week or less), they want the car for 3 months.

1. What modifications are they planning to do to the vehicle?
2. How much mileage will they be putting on the vehicle?
3. In the event that any modifications that were made to the vehicle cause problems after I have the vehicle back, what warranty coverage will be provided?


----------



## Ajlal24 (Mar 7, 2007)

GoFaster said:


> Ask LOTS of questions before you submit your vehicle. This is not their usual assessment (approx 1 week or less), they want the car for 3 months.
> 
> 1. What modifications are they planning to do to the vehicle?
> 2. How much mileage will they be putting on the vehicle?
> 3. In the event that any modifications that were made to the vehicle cause problems after I have the vehicle back, what warranty coverage will be provided?


Aside from the mileage concerns, I'm well out of the warranty period with 112,000 miles on my Golf TDI, my concerns over their proposed fixes and testing where whether any issues caused by testing outside of the facility were covered by any warranty. I was thinking of purchasing EasyCare, though that might conflict with aftermarket modifications done by EPA. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

GoFaster said:


> Ask LOTS of questions before you submit your vehicle. This is not their usual assessment (approx 1 week or less), they want the car for 3 months.
> 
> 1. What modifications are they planning to do to the vehicle?
> 2. How much mileage will they be putting on the vehicle?
> 3. In the event that any modifications that were made to the vehicle cause problems after I have the vehicle back, what warranty coverage will be provided?


I'm sure that request is probably real, but can you imagine the number of scammers scheming ideas to steal cars this way? :laugh::banghead:


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

I have a friend who claims he knows a guy who runs a VW service department and the claim is that VW will be buying back all the newer cars, I have no clue if this is true or if they are just talking bull****. 

Let's assume for a moment it's true I'm now left trying to figure out what the **** to buy. BMW wagon costs $45,000... Volvo wagon is $36,000 but it doesn't get nearly the fuel mileage... 

Looking back it really is a "this is too good to be true" situation with the TDI wagon. $25k? 45mpg? wagon? It shouldn't add up. It didn't add up.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)




----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

today from Reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN0UR1M320160113

*U.S. says no deal reached with VW CEO to fix diesel emissions*



Reuters said:


> U.S. environmental officials said on Wednesday that no agreement with Volkswagen had been reached on how to fix nearly 600,000 diesel vehicles that emit up to 40 times legally allowable limits after a meeting with the company's chief executive officer.
> 
> A spokeswoman for Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Gina McCarthy said in a statement after the hour long meeting with VW CEO Matthias Mueller that the agency appreciated the conversation.
> 
> ...


----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

This is all so far out of the public eye now that none of it really matters. As election year rolls on, there will be even less attention on anything VW.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Ajlal24 said:


> So I receive a letter in the mail from CARB/EPA stating that they'd like for me to volunteer my Golf TDI for a testing program in El Monte, CA. Looks like they're looking for actual real world vehicles that are driven in the state of CA to conduct additional testing a visualize whether the proposed fix is long term viable. The premise of the letter stated that all repairs done to the vehicle will be at the expense of CARB/EPA - not sure what they're trying to retrofit here.


I would be honored to help the state analyze the impact of VW's fraud and devise a fix.

I hope you're able to do it.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

uncleho said:


> I'm sure that request is probably real, but can you imagine the number of scammers scheming ideas to steal cars this way? :laugh::banghead:


I realize you're (mostly?) joking, but I would think zero people are considering such scams. Cars are not difficult to steal as it is.

Going through the hassle of negotiating a contract with an owner and then picking up the keys is a really dumb way to steal a car.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

> A union source close to the German company's supervisory board ‎said on Wednesday he was "astonished" by Mueller's remarks.
> 
> "Those comments are anything but helpful and should have never been made," he said, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the delicacy of the subject.


I'm guessing this was Bernd Osterloh.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Vicelord said:


> I have a friend who claims he knows a guy who runs a VW service department and the claim is that VW will be buying back all the newer cars, I have no clue if this is true or if they are just talking bull****.


A guy who runs a VW service department is hardly an insider. This'll be a VWoA decision made at the highest levels in Herndon and Wolfsburg, without looping in dealership service managers.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

eweu said:


> This is all so far out of the public eye now that none of it really matters. As election year rolls on, there will be even less attention on anything VW.


+1

Its still a big topic of discussion here because of the type of site we are obviously on. If you are a current VW TDI owner I am sure you are just waiting for an update on what the fix will be but not exactly following every development closely.

As far as the non-VW TDI general public I am sure this has mostly passed especially with the election year. This will probably become mainstream news when a fix is announced and when fines are assessed but it will not be as big as when it was first announced.

If you look at the stock (at least the ADR) its been pretty steady after the initial drop.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Chilcoot said:


> I would be honored to help the state analyze the impact of VW's fraud and devise a fix.


I'm going to go out on a sturdy limb here and say you were awarded the Purple Wedgie for wounds incurred during your service to the Hall Monitoring Enforcement Agency.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

Reuters said:


> A spokeswoman for Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Gina McCarthy said in a statement after the *hour long meeting* with VW CEO Matthias Mueller that the agency appreciated the conversation.]


A whole hour? 

And we wonder why nothing is getting done.


----------



## MEIN_VW (Jul 29, 2000)

Put Mueller in front of a Senate committee and let them rake him over the coals. He won't know what hit him after that kind of public flogging.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

MEIN_VW said:


> Put Mueller in front of a *Senate committe*e and let them rake him over the coals. He won't know what hit him after that kind of public flogging.


The last one proved that they were useless and had no clue what the actual issue was, why would this one be any different? It was embarrassing for America not VW.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

PnZrFsT said:


> A whole hour?
> 
> And we wonder why nothing is getting done.


Do you even realize how many multi-national conference calls are had about climate change in a week? Theres tons of reports to process.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

chris86vw said:


> The last one proved that they were useless and had no clue what the actual issue was, why would this one be any different? It was embarrassing for America not VW.


QFT


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

ByronLLN said:


> You in a position to do it?


I am. And yes, according to the letter I got, also, they give you an equivalent leased car for the duration that is fully insured and you can use it for unlimited mileage in California. I'm just right down the road in Burbank, only 88,200 miles on the wife's '09 Jetta TDI.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

T5 Dave said:


> I am. And yes, according to the letter I got, also, they give you an equivalent leased car for the duration that is fully insured and you can use it for unlimited mileage in California. I'm just right down the road in Burbank, only 88,200 miles on the wife's '09 Jetta TDI.


I really hope you do it, the state's going to need a strong case to counter whatever cloud of smoke VW puts up to conceal its wrongdoing.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

Chilcoot said:


> A guy who runs a VW service department is hardly an insider. This'll be a VWoA decision made at the highest levels in Herndon and Wolfsburg, without looping in dealership service managers.


I didn't state he's an insider. I also said I have no idea if it's true or not, why are you trying to split hairs with my verbiage?


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Vicelord said:


> I didn't state he's an insider. I also said I have no idea if it's true or not, why are you trying to split hairs with my verbiage?


The point I'm making is I wouldn't put any faith at all in what your friend says his friend the service manager said about VW's plans to correct its emissions debacle.

A service manager is as likely to know VW's plans for these cars as the woman who made my lunch tacos, and she doesn't know anything either.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

Chilcoot said:


> The point I'm making is I wouldn't put any faith at all in what your friend says his friend the service manager said about VW's plans to correct its emissions debacle.


_I'm not_

" I have no clue if this is true or if they are just talking bull****."


----------



## robr2 (May 5, 2005)

PnZrFsT said:


> A whole hour?
> 
> And we wonder why nothing is getting done.


The meeting was between the two big wigs and was simply to tell VW what they presented wasn't acceptable. It wasn't supposed to be a hours/days long negotiating session.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

robr2 said:


> The meeting was between the two big wigs and was simply to tell VW what they presented wasn't acceptable. It wasn't supposed to be a hours/days long negotiating session.


They probably spent most of the hour drinking coffee and eating breakfast pastries.


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

Chilcoot said:


> The point I'm making is I wouldn't put any faith at all in what your friend says his friend the service manager said about VW's plans to correct its emissions debacle.
> 
> A service manager is as likely to know VW's plans for these cars as the woman who made my lunch tacos, and she doesn't know anything either.


Agreed. People at the dealerships are just middle men and are not any part of the decision making company.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

Damn it! I've been patiently waiting for like 4 months. Tell me something official!


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

thegoose said:


> Damn it! I've been patiently waiting for like 4 months. Tell me something official!


That would require VW to get their act together.

Honestly - and this is coming from someone involved in the auto industry on the tooling / engineering side - if VW is putting together a properly engineered fix and going through the proper validation steps, and with the assumption that this effort did not start in earnest until the September notice of violation, it is way too early. It could very well be a year before they actually start fixing these cars. CARB's deadline schedule was not written with a complete emission control system re-engineering in mind and is completely unrealistic from that point of view. It's not even remotely possible to re-engineer this in 4 months.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

GoFaster said:


> CARB's deadline schedule was not written with a complete emission control system re-engineering in mind and is completely unrealistic from that point of view. It's not even remotely possible to re-engineer this in 4 months.


Maybe VW should have thought of that before they decided to cheat and lie.

I hope EPA nails them to the wall.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

GoHomePossum said:


> I hope EPA nails them to the wall.


I hope the EPA realizes they actually have to enforce their decrees.


----------



## auR32 (Jul 21, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> I hope the EPA realizes they actually have to enforce their decrees.


And fix their testing regime so this crap never happens again.

Its all well and good for them to hang VW for this fraud, but by the same token they should have seen it well before this. EPA needs a rocket too.


----------



## buggyman (Aug 24, 2004)

auR32 said:


> And fix their testing regime so this crap never happens again.
> 
> Its all well and good for them to hang VW for this fraud, but by the same token they should have seen it well before this. EPA needs a rocket too.


:thumbup: au  ,
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...elgate-NPR&p=92045945&viewfull=1#post92045945

:beer:


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

GoHomePossum said:


> Maybe VW should have thought of that before they decided to cheat and lie.
> 
> I hope EPA nails them to the wall.


I hope the fines are so large that VW declares bankruptcy and then just pulls out of the US market and doesn't even pay any of the fines or fixes any of the cars :laugh:

On a serious note, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some back-room negotiations going on between the US and German Govt seeing how important VW is to the German economy. I also really wouldn't be surprised if the fines are not as large as some people are thinking because of said negotiations.


----------



## driveareliablecar (Jan 28, 2003)

This fraud started over six years ago. They didn't have a fix years ago why would they have one today? They screwed up their own European cities with smog.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

noatonement said:


> On a serious note, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some back-room negotiations going on between the US and German Govt seeing how important VW is to the German economy.


I'd be surprised if their _wasn't._


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

driveareliablecar said:


> This fraud started over six years ago. They didn't have a fix years ago why would they have one today?


More than 6 years ago, they went two year without offering TDI's in the US because they couldn't get them to legally pass, so they had to cheat to get these to. I see a buy back coming, I'd just like to see it in the next 6 months.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

driveareliablecar said:


> This fraud started over six years ago. They didn't have a fix years ago why would they have one today?


Technology has never advanced ever, it's why we are reading this on cave walls and all rode our mastadons to work in the rock field.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> Technology has never advanced ever, it's why we are reading this on cave walls and all rode our mastadons to work in the rock field.


The point is that no manufacturer has ever come up with a way to pass the current generation emissions without Adblue. Sure, technology advances, but where is the evidence that "technology" has advanced enough to pass emissions without SCR/Adblue? All these years later and the only way anybody with a diesel engine is passing emissions is SCR/Adblue. It is plausible that diesel is simply so dirty that there's honestly no way to pass emissions without SCR at a cost and complexity level that is cheaper than doing a buyback instead. After all, if it really was so easy to pass emissions without SCR, why did VW eventually abandon the NOx trap cars entirely and switch to SCR anyway?


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

noatonement said:


> *I hope the fines are so large that VW declares bankruptcy and then just pulls out of the US market and doesn't even pay any of the fines or fixes any of the cars* :laugh:
> 
> On a serious note, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some back-room negotiations going on between the US and German Govt seeing how important VW is to the German economy. I also really wouldn't be surprised if the fines are not as large as some people are thinking because of said negotiations.


That's actually a very German approach to many things.....all the way, or no way. don't laugh, that could actually be part of a strategy to get around paying fines, and coming back as a new company.

GM did it.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Phil Pugliese said:


> More than 6 years ago, they went two year without offering TDI's in the US because they couldn't get them to legally pass, so they had to cheat to get these to. I see a buy back coming, I'd just like to see it in the next 6 months.


I'm with you on this. Also, it has been almost a year since the EPA told VW they had to fix it. 

They don't have a fix.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

You'reDrunk said:


> That's actually a very German approach to many things.....all the way, or no way. don't laugh, that could actually be part of a strategy to get around paying fines, and coming back as a new company.
> 
> GM did it.


While bankruptcy helped shield GM from incurring further crippling losses from lawsuits, 99% of the company's debt load was old, historic debt load unrelated to any pending litigation or settlements they had going on at the time of their bankruptcy. VW has an incredibly strong financial position today. They are the complete opposite of the 2008 version of GM, which had almost no assets and a crippling debt load. The US market made up something like 3.5% of VWs total worldwide sales in 2015, our market is no where near big enough to cause VW lasting financial difficulties, much less cause a bankruptcy and reorganization of the company.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> I'm with you on this. Also, it has been almost a year since the EPA told VW they had to fix it.
> 
> They don't have a fix.


Well you say "almost" a year but the Wiki article about the scandal says "According to the EPA, Volkswagen had insisted for *a year before the outbreak* of the scandal that discrepancies were mere technical glitches." which means that EPA & CARB likely contacted VW very shortly after the May 2014 report was published, showing VW's road emissions as being well beyond legal limits. That puts us at probably 1.5 years now since VW was notified. I suspect VW was notified in June 2014 or so, since the original report was presented to EPA & CARB in May 2014.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> While bankruptcy helped shield GM from incurring further crippling losses from lawsuits, 99% of the company's debt load was old, historic debt load unrelated to any pending litigation or settlements they had going on at the time of their bankruptcy. VW has an incredibly strong financial position today. They are the complete opposite of the 2008 version of GM, which had almost no assets and a crippling debt load. The US market made up something like 3.5% of VWs total worldwide sales in 2015, our market is no where near big enough to cause VW lasting financial difficulties, much less cause a *bankruptcy and reorganization of the company.*


that's NOT why you file BK....you file it to relieve yourself of debt you don't want to pay.....if VW is smart, VWoA will declare BK, close shop for several years and maybe return to the USA, just to prove a point. gov't regulation is a joke in this country and the EPA/USA should be ashamed for how poorly they manage their primary duties.

just like Congress, FED, SEC and FDIC...gov't agencies, among others, fostered the issues which created the big recession.....yet all of those business either got hand-outs, or filed BK....and are still in business.

I'm tired of hearing just how bad VW is in all of this. they only cheated on stupid and unobtainable green issues. the banks and politicians screwed each and every one of us Americans.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

aj4066 said:


> They don't have a fix.


what theyre trying to do is far from technically impossible. but balancing whats needed to fix the cars against the costs/timeline needed to retrofit everything is probably the issue.
my guess is what theyre trying to do is bamboozle the epa into accepting a calibration/software update as the only fix, and i think the epa is wisely telling them to get lost, as i dont think you can get there without hardware changes.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

You'reDrunk said:


> that's NOT why you file BK....you file it to relieve yourself of debt you don't want to pay.....if VW is smart, VWoA will declare BK, close shop for several years and maybe return to the USA, just to prove a point. gov't regulation is a joke in this country and the EPA/USA should be ashamed for how poorly they manage their primary duties.


When you declare bankruptcy, you lose control of all your money. The court takes over the company and tells you what happens next. If you have assets, the court takes them away and gives those assets to people you owe money to. VW has, what, $70 billion? They might get fined $3-5 billion by EPA. It will NOT be the $25-75 billion you see tossed around in the press. VW's management is not going to give up control of their company over such a tiny amount of money.



You'reDrunk said:


> they only cheated on stupid and unobtainable green issues. the banks and politicians screwed each and every one of us Americans.


Unobtainable? Every other automaker in the US market seems to pass emissions in the real world - even the pickup trucks and SUV's that are far bigger and more powerful than the Golf/Jetta which is held to the same standard. It is very much obtainable, as proved by all the automakers who have legal emissions systems for their diesels. No bank or politician made VW cheat.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> The point is that no manufacturer has ever come up with a way to pass the current generation emissions without Adblue.


I don't think that was actually his point or the point of the dozen other people who've made that silly comment.


Statements eluding to if they could fix it in 09 they would have by now are just ridiculous. They have adblue, that is the fix, those systems retrofitted would fix the problem. What isn't here is their final solution to fit it, fitting it is 100% possible if they want it to fit but that also costs a boat load of money and are likely stalling to find a cheaper or at least cost reducing option. So far they saved millions and had not been caught, why would they possibly waste millions of dollars saved into developing a system that up until now had no reason to be designed just in case. Having it ready to go would also further implicate more people in the lie. 



They didn't have a cheap easy solution so they cheated, cheating also saved them millions. They still don't have a cheap easy solution so they are delaying.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> what theyre trying to do is far from technically impossible. *but balancing whats needed to fix the cars against the costs/timeline needed to retrofit everything is probably the issue.*
> my guess is what theyre trying to do is bamboozle the epa into accepting a calibration/software update as the only fix, and i think the epa is wisely telling them to get lost, as i dont think you can get there without hardware changes.


This is the part that the "they can't fix it" crowd is not considering. 

They can fix it (ignoring manufacturing time) whenever they want, they are likely stalling to reduce the number to the left of the third comma.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> This is the part that the "they can't fix it" crowd is not considering.
> 
> They can fix it (ignoring manufacturing time) whenever they want, they are likely stalling to reduce the number to the left of the third comma.


exactly.
though i dont know aobut "whenever they want" but surely relatively quickly. something like this would require a fair bit of testing before release, and at least a couple seasons of shakedown. 
but i have a strong hunch that their initial pass at the epa has been - look we can fix it next week by just calling all the cars back to the dealer for a new cal/software.

but i think its beyond obvious at this point that you cant get there from here without scr.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> Unobtainable? Every other automaker in the US market* seems* to pass emissions in the real world - even the pickup trucks and SUV's that are far bigger and more powerful than the Golf/Jetta which is held to the same standard.


keyword highlighted, It's been highlighted in this thread by those that work in the field/industry that many other vehicles likely wouldn't pass many real world tests. 


HD truck standard is different isn't it, it got more strict (anything is better than 0) but still not as strict I thought? Part of why there are just now light duty diesel pickups hitting the market.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> though i dont know aobut "whenever they want" but surely relatively quickly.


Yeah meant to word that better, I meant more along the lines of handing in a real plan vs getting customer cars fixed could happen whenever they want. But if they turn in a plan that says they are putting SCR in everything and it is approved then they have to. So why not try a few quicker/cheaper plans first?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> keyword highlighted, It's been highlighted in this thread by those that work in the field/industry that many other vehicles likely wouldn't pass many real world tests.
> 
> HD truck standard is different isn't it, it got more strict (anything is better than 0) but still not as strict I thought? Part of why there are just now light duty diesel pickups hitting the market.


You've confused a couple things in your post. In the first line, you're confusing the US market, where actually multiple cars from GM, Mercedes, and BMW in particular have all been tested and found to pass emissions in the real world. This, as opposed to Europe, where it appears nearly all automakers are cheating in Europe as well. Don't confuse the fact that everyone cheats in Europe with the fact that for the US market, automakers appear to generally not be cheating except for VW.

As for the second line, what I was talking about was trucks and SUVs with bigger, more powerful engines that follow the same standard as the Golf/Jetta. This does not mean HD trucks, it's more like the Dodge Ram Tradesman, the Chevy Colorado Diesel, the Mercedes and BMW diesel SUVs, all are much bigger and more powerful than the Golf/Jetta and all have to pass the same T2B5 standard as the Golf/Jetta. HD trucks are separate.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

chris86vw said:


> What isn't here is their final solution


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> You've confused a couple things in your post.


You are positive that (other than the other vehicle in the study) every vehicle you have listed has gone through this exact independent test and will absolutely without a doubt pass? 

I've confused nothing.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> Well you say "almost" a year but the Wiki article about the scandal says "According to the EPA, Volkswagen had insisted for *a year before the outbreak* of the scandal that discrepancies were mere technical glitches." which means that EPA & CARB likely contacted VW very shortly after the May 2014 report was published, showing VW's road emissions as being well beyond legal limits. That puts us at probably 1.5 years now since VW was notified. I suspect VW was notified in June 2014 or so, since the original report was presented to EPA & CARB in May 2014.


You get my point though and we both agree. They've been at this a long time without a fix. 



ValveCoverGasket said:


> what theyre trying to do is far from technically impossible. but balancing whats needed to fix the cars against the costs/timeline needed to retrofit everything is probably the issue.
> my guess is what theyre trying to do is bamboozle the epa into accepting a calibration/software update as the only fix, and i think the epa is wisely telling them to get lost, as i dont think you can get there without hardware changes.


And at some point, the govt is going to say no, screw you, fix this crap or buy the cars back and liquidate them. In states where emissions is a concern, it will be a nightmare.

The future remains uncertain.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> And at some point, the govt is going to say no, screw you, fix this crap or buy the cars back and liquidate them. In states where emissions is a concern, it will be a nightmare.
> 
> The future remains uncertain.


In CA if they do a buyback or a fix, you will have to agree to it or be unable to register your car. My son is in CA and he has an emission letter for his 2010 JSW TDI. It states that he must bring proof of an April 2015 recall 23O6 with him for his test.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

^Yep that 23O6 was that last software update which was supposed to fix the issue, basically its the most recent emissions update so California mandates it performed. Dealer will still perform it and he will be able to register his car. No registrations have been with-held in CA because of September Dieselgate however, for the time being.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

chris86vw said:


> Technology has never advanced ever, it's why we are reading this on cave walls and all rode our mastadons to work in the rock field.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

You'reDrunk said:


> I'm tired of hearing just how bad VW is in all of this. they only cheated on stupid and unobtainable green issues. the banks and politicians screwed each and every one of us Americans.


You are not good at assessing responsibility. At all.










"I wasn't going to murder that stripper, but sheesh, there weren't any cops around! It's plainly the government's fault!"


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Chilcoot said:


> You are not good at assessing responsibility. At all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yep...I'm a grumpy old man yelling at clouds


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

You'reDrunk said:


> yep...I'm a grumpy old man yelling at clouds


Me too


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

You'reDrunk said:


> I'm tired of hearing just how bad VW is in all of this. they only cheated on stupid and unobtainable green issues. the banks and politicians screwed each and every one of us Americans.


Nobody held a gun to VW's head and told them to cheat.


----------



## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

I never ever thought I'd post here again, but the burning question is: Could VW just say to Hell with the EPA and indeed simply pull out of this market? On behalf of the tens of thousands of VW enthusiasts and loyalists in this country, I sincerely hope not. I remember back about 12-13 years ago when VWoA sales started tanking after the short-lived fanfare of the New Beetle wore off and how seemingly every third poster here was saying that VW would be pulling out of the US within 6 months. There aren't nearly as many people suggesting this now with the Dieselgate scandal, but the fact that even a few have implied this scenario is quite disturbing. 

Without any TDIs in the foreseeable future, along with gas owners who could jump ship to other brands, I figure sales could drop to the levels of the mid 2000s, or about 250-275K units a year in addition to being in the red for a while until the fines/lawsuits are resolved, but I'd like to think that if VW has persevered through tough times in the past, this will be no different. They definitely shot themselves in the foot with this, but I hope the company remains committed to the US. To put it another way, I don't want my Passat to become as obsolete as a Daewoo Leganza let alone see VW clubs and shows become as common as a Packard Convention or a memory like a Saturn Homecoming in Spring Hill........:sly:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Mazda 3s said:


> Nobody held a gun to VW's head and told them to cheat.


Also way back on page 2 or 3 it was pointed out that both Honda and Mazda had every intention of selling diesel editions of their cars in the US and each gave up and decided not to sell diesel here at all because they couldn't figure out how to pass emissions without Adblue. Neither Honda nor Mazda cheated, they simply chose not to sell diesels here. That was VW's other option if they truly wanted to refuse to use any kind of DEF.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

fiftysomething said:


> I never ever thought I'd post here again, but the burning question is: Could VW just say to Hell with the EPA and indeed simply pull out of this market?


Legally? Sure, they could stop selling cars here, but that STILL would not resolve the fact they committed a crime. Like if you rob a bank in America and flee to Germany, guess what? You're going to face charges and be extradited anyway. Germany is a close trading partner, they would have to play ball with the US or else they could face having ALL German products banned from America and get kicked out of WTO even. That's stupid, would never happen, and besides we've not even talking about very much money here. Sure, the headline figure for the fines is big, but the actual fines assessed by the US government have always been way below the legal maximums for high profile cases like this.



fiftysomething said:


> Without any TDIs in the foreseeable future, along with gas owners who could jump ship to other brands, I figure sales could drop to the levels of the mid 2000s, or about 250-275K units a year in addition to being in the red for a while until the fines/lawsuits are resolved, but I'd like to think that if VW has persevered through tough times in the past, this will be no different.


Correct. For further indication of how long a manufacturer can hold out, look at Mitsubishi. They bottomed out at a mere 57,790 vehicles sold in the US in 2012 but never gave up. They've bounced back (relatively) and managed to sell 95,342 last year. VW is so far ahead of those kinds of numbers that they wouldn't even be entertaining the notion of leaving a country where they're selling over 300,000 vehicles and could potentially be up over 500,000 again in a few years if they get their act together.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> Also way back on page 2 or 3 it was pointed out that both Honda and Mazda had every intention of selling diesel editions of their cars in the US and each gave up and decided not to sell diesel here at all because they couldn't figure out how to pass emissions without Adblue. Neither Honda nor Mazda cheated, they simply chose not to sell diesels here. That was VW's other option if they truly wanted to refuse to use any kind of DEF.


I don't know Hondas time frame but Mazda pulling out was only like a year ago wasn't it? Even still sort of trying when this broke right? VW already had a couple model years of DEF cars being sold here by then and stating that the new cars were coming and would have it as well. 

Yes VW cheated

No Mazda did not.

But it isn't like VW didn't themselves start to use DEF, they were selling cars here with it before Mazda gave up. So even the cheater even sort of admitted passively that it needed it.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

auR32 said:


> And fix their testing regime so this crap never happens again.
> 
> Its all well and good for them to hang VW for this fraud, but by the same token they should have seen it well before this. EPA needs a rocket too.


This is a strange line of thinking to me.

We are fortunate IMHO that the regulations and how they are measured are as... they are. And they're that way assuming that companies in the business of making serious products for consumption that involve tons of resources and impact all manner of society/business/etc. (i.e. Professional, ethical, reliable, serious, sustainable, responsible, etc.) have the maturity to operate without having to have their hands held every step of the way with government oversight. 

Think about that.

For a government to assume companies are inherently very prone to dastardly deeds does little to support business and society. It would make for quite the opposite of what those who try to find BALANCE want. This and similar corporate shenanigans are what makes it worse for businesses that operate honestly and with integrity. Why? Because they bring more of what is otherwise unnecessary government oversight in order to police a minority! THIS is what wrecks the notions of Free Market Proponents and their insistence on... totally free markets.

What makes me angry about this event is that it naturally blackens the eyes of the many VW employees that do an honest day's job. This is a problem of POOR leadership creating a bad culture. I'm still of the opinion that large pressures motivate a minority to be desperate and choose short term decisions. 

No. Government testing does not need to get more and more encompassing. There aren't enough test routes/routines one can make to please everybody. At some point a limit is set. I'm sure there might be opportunities for refinement, but the issue here was not regulations. It was ethics, which IMHO was pressured likely from the upper echelons by a culture of "If you can't get the job done, then I will ****ing find somebody who will!".


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Considering how many VW dealers in the US that have built new stores or done major renovations in the last 5-10 years. No way VW could pull out now. They would never be able to get back into this market.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

uncleho said:


> For a government to assume companies are inherently very prone to dastardly deeds does little to support business and society.


There are industries in the U.S. so heavily regulated that on-site exams by regulators is a common practice, and a lot of those companies don't make products that pollute or kill people :laugh:

It isn't a matter of whether a company is evil or not, it is a matter of the almighty CBA, and if the fox is guarding the hen house or not :laugh:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

uncleho said:


> This is a strange line of thinking to me.
> 
> We are fortunate IMHO that the regulations and how they are measured are as... they are. And they're that way assuming that companies in the business of making serious products for consumption that involve tons of resources and impact all manner of society/business/etc. (i.e. Professional, ethical, reliable, serious, sustainable, responsible, etc.) have the maturity to operate without having to have their hands held every step of the way with government oversight.
> 
> ...


you are 100% correct, but that's why you perform regulator/compliance audits, which sadly were NEVER done.....had they been done, this issue would have been found LONG ago.....kind of like GM's ignition switches and Takata's airbags.....or the banking industry running amok.

I work in gov't...I know how little third party oversight there is in what GOVT does, let alone verification of compliance with regulatory laws.

if these EPA laws were so important, why have no audits been performed??? why did it take a university, asking questions to find the issue.

nope sorry, you can't just hang this on VW...they were playing the game, and ALL the players are at fault.


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> Also way back on page 2 or 3 it was pointed out that both Honda and Mazda had every intention of selling diesel editions of their cars in the US and each gave up and decided not to sell diesel here at all because they couldn't figure out how to pass emissions without Adblue. Neither Honda nor Mazda cheated, they simply chose not to sell diesels here. That was VW's other option if they truly wanted to refuse to use any kind of DEF.


Mazda has not given up.

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...azda-stands-by-diesel-move-despite-vw-scandal


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> When you declare bankruptcy, you lose control of all your money. The court takes over the company and tells you what happens next. If you have assets, the court takes them away and gives those assets to people you owe money to. VW has, what, $70 billion? They might get fined $3-5 billion by EPA. It will NOT be the $25-75 billion you see tossed around in the press. VW's management is not going to give up control of their company over such a tiny amount of money.
> 
> Unobtainable? Every other automaker in the US market seems to pass emissions in the real world - even the pickup trucks and SUV's that are far bigger and more powerful than the Golf/Jetta which is held to the same standard. It is very much obtainable, as proved by all the automakers who have legal emissions systems for their diesels. No bank or politician made VW cheat.


X2, you don't declare bankruptcy because of debt you don't want to pay and then walk away with the pile of cash you were sitting on. Them leaving the U.S. market, declaring bankruptcy, etc. doesn't make any sense. In 2014 they made over $12 billion profit and are more than likely sitting on enough cash to pay the fines and fixes out of pocket (not selling assets, brands, etc). 



chris86vw said:


> You are positive that (other than the other vehicle in the study) every vehicle you have listed has gone through this exact independent test and will absolutely without a doubt pass?
> 
> I've confused nothing.


Speculation that there could be other manufacturers out there that have cheated on emissions tests makes you feel better about what VW did? Until the speculation is proven it is nothing, then if some other car company is caught I hope the same thing happens to them that is happening to VW.


----------



## grounded87 (Nov 5, 2002)

So my question is... what's next? 

Everybody was waiting on the hard deadline of January 14th (which was already an extension) for EPA/CARB to assess or reject the submitted plan. 

That date came, and CARB has flatly rejected the plan. 

VW asked for an extension. CARB said "NO." 

So... what happens now? Is there any scheduled "next announcement" type date out there? I find it odd they reject the plan, reject the extension, but then say there is ongoing discussion, without some kind of scheduled next response date.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> Speculation that there could be other manufacturers out there that have cheated on emissions tests makes you feel better about what VW did?


Reading and following along before posting usually is to everyone's benefit. I didn't speculate or claim anyone else cheated we were discussing whether other vehicles will fail more stringent real world tests and whether the EPAs tests were lacking and need to improve their tests going forward.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

grounded87 said:


> So my question is... what's next? Everybody was waiting on the hard deadline of January 14th (which was already an extension) for EPA/CARB to assess or reject the submitted plan. That date came, and CARB has flatly rejected the plan. VW asked for an extension. CARB said "NO."
> So... what happens now? Is there any scheduled "next announcement" type date out there? I find it odd they reject the plan, reject the extension, but then say there is ongoing discussion, without some kind of scheduled next response date.


You forgot about the part where the CEO went on NPR around the same time and told the reporter that the US can pack sand and they didn't do anything wrong. :thumbup:

Whats next? The EPA will create an ultimatum. Fix it or buy the vehicles back and liquidate them out of the US. At this point, I am guessing the latter. 

FWIW, the EPA and CARB knew before the meeting that they didn't have a fix. Again, this fix isn't something that has been in the works for the past few months. It's been ongoing for over a year.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> Whats next? The EPA will create an ultimatum. Fix it or buy the vehicles back and liquidate them out of the US. At this point, I am guessing the latter.


Does the EPA actually have that power?


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

grounded87 said:


> So my question is... what's next?
> 
> Everybody was waiting on the hard deadline of January 14th (which was already an extension) for EPA/CARB to assess or reject the submitted plan.
> 
> ...


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Even if VW pulls out of the US market, they still would have to deal with the issue of getting fines, and going to court. If they try and wash their hands of the issue, maybe the EPA can find them the max per car, and then use the money to buy back all the cars and crush them?


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

chris86vw said:


> Does the EPA actually have that power?


They create the standard, don't they? THEY might not be able to make the decision, but I guarantee they know the person who can.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

aj4066 said:


> They create the standard, don't they? THEY might not be able to make the decision, but I guarantee they know the person who can.


I smell another episode of "The Pen and the Phone" - all in the name of Climate Change Security Act :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## NoDubJustYet (Mar 25, 2002)

aj4066 said:


> They create the standard, don't they? THEY might not be able to make the decision, but I guarantee they know the person who can.


Ivy Wang?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> Does the EPA actually have that power?


Departments of the federal government have an extraordinary amount of power - more than most people realize. While the law might say that fines are all that's specifically listed in the law for the CAA violation, all options are on the table in negotiations. Want to play hardball? Ok, the fine is $75 billion. Want to work something out? OK, let's make a deal. That's how out of court settlements work and since VW is going up against the government there is literally no point in trying to take it to court, since that _still_ means going up against the government. Judges might claim they are impartial, but my observations are that employees of the government (judges) tend to side with the government, especially in cases like this where it's clear there was a violation of the law. To recap: all options are on the table with an out of court settlement. The penalty for VW to not play ball is too severe for them to afford. Taking a $14k/car buyback loss on 325k cars (the older ones without SCR) is $4.5 billion. That's so much lower than the fine that yes, that's the sensible option by far if VW can't come up with an acceptable fix.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> They create the standard, don't they? THEY might not be able to make the decision, but I guarantee they know the person who can.


This is where it gets complicated.

Just having the ability to write a standard does not even remotely give you the authority to demand someone reimburse people. I don't recall a single skyline or defender owner getting repaid by the company they bought them from do you? The EPA is part of the executive branch, if you are eluding to an executive order to do a buy back I don't believe there is any President who would touch that.


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

chris86vw said:


> Reading and following along before posting usually is to everyone's benefit. I didn't speculate or claim anyone else cheated we were discussing whether other vehicles will fail more stringent real world tests and whether the EPAs tests were lacking and need to improve their tests going forward.


You just suggested that someone should read 219 pages before making a post about the topic...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Car Problems said:


> You just suggested that someone should read 219 pages before making a post about the topic...


No I suggested someone read the words they quoted and if that is still too hard to get that they read the words quoted in the post they were responding too. There is even a little blue arrow in the quotes that jumps them right to the previous post in the conversation, no scrolling or work needed, just click.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> Departments of the federal government have an extraordinary amount of power - more than most people realize. While the law might say that fines are all that's specifically listed in the law for the CAA violation, all options are on the table in negotiations. Want to play hardball? Ok, the fine is $75 billion. Want to work something out? OK, let's make a deal. That's how out of court settlements work and since VW is going up against the government there is literally no point in trying to take it to court, since that _still_ means going up against the government. Judges might claim they are impartial, but my observations are that employees of the government (judges) tend to side with the government, especially in cases like this where it's clear there was a violation of the law. To recap: all options are on the table with an out of court settlement. The penalty for VW to not play ball is too severe for them to afford. Taking a $14k/car buyback loss on 325k cars (the older ones without SCR) is $4.5 billion. That's so much lower than the fine that yes, that's the sensible option by far if VW can't come up with an acceptable fix.


USA is one of the smallest market shares VW has, and not to say they would cut off their nose to spite their face, but they can honestly use that as a legal tactic.....fine us big, we close doors and leave. putting hundreds of thousands (all tiers) out of work.....loss of tax money, etc. I know this is a long shot, but I am sure VW is looking at EVERY angle in relation to strategy.

the EPA cannot force them into compliance, it's not in their ability or perview, they are a regulatory agency plain and simple (CFR 40). other departments of the gov't can provide other remedies within their charters (CFR), none of which can force a business to do anything other than pay fines, or close (revocation of licenses, interstate commerce, etc). that's it.

if VW wants to drag this on for years legally, they can, and probably will, it's in their interest to drag this out until it's not as big of a news story as most people think. remember we are talking about LESS THAN 1M cars.....that's not even 1 months production in the USA buy all makers.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

You'reDrunk said:


> USA is one of the smallest market shares VW has.


Yeah I don't think people realize that, the UK buys more VW/Audis per year than they do in all of the US (I think this fluctuates year to year but is roughly correct). A country the size of Oregon buys more then this whole country.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> if you are eluding to an executive order to do a buy back


I hate to nitpick, but this is the second time you've used elude when the correct word is allude.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> I hate to nitpick, but this is the second time you've used elude when the correct word is allude.


I hate to nitpick, but historically the person making spelling and grammar complaints has no real point to make in regards to the actual discussion.


Larry spelled by wrong, make sure you get on those too! :thumbup:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

You'reDrunk said:


> USA is one of the smallest market shares VW has, and not to say they would cut off their nose to spite their face, but they can honestly use that as a legal tactic.....fine us big, we close doors and leave. putting hundreds of thousands (all tiers) out of work.....loss of tax money, etc. I know this is a long shot, but I am sure VW is looking at EVERY angle in relation to strategy.


This is what corporate governance is for. Because the company is partly owned by a government of Germany and is systemically critical to the German economy, their corporate governance would prevent them from doing anything that harms the company. This is especially true if it means layoffs, since one of the employee unions is one of the biggest owners of the company. VW will pay a fine, maybe buy back some cars and ship them elsewhere or just recycle them, as 90% of the parts are still valid repair parts for gasoline models. Life will go on for VW, no layoffs, no pulling out of any markets. It all comes down to if they can come up with a solution for the non-SCR cars or not.

I honestly don't understand why VW isn't pushing harder to let the government treat the SCR and non-SCR cars separately. With SCR (Adblue) the fix should literally be as simply as just injecting more Adblue into the exhaust. They could have submitted that fix back in November or something. Instead it seems that ALL the cars are held up, even though only a little more than half of them are actually lacking SCR.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

chris86vw said:


> This is where it gets complicated.
> 
> Just having the ability to write a standard does not even remotely give you the authority to demand someone reimburse people. I don't recall a single skyline or defender owner getting repaid by the company they bought them from do you? The EPA is part of the executive branch, if you are eluding to an executive order to do a buy back I don't believe there is any President who would touch that.


You are right, it is complicated. 

But this all came about per an EPA standard. Will the EPA tell VW they have to buy cars back, no. Can they tell owners that their car isn't compliant to drive, yes.


----------



## Kar98 (Apr 21, 2002)

You'reDrunk said:


> USA is one of the smallest market shares VW has, and not to say they would cut off their nose to spite their face, but they can honestly use that as a legal tactic.....fine us big, we close doors and leave. putting hundreds of thousands (all tiers) out of work.....loss of tax money, etc. I know this is a long shot, but I am sure VW is looking at EVERY angle in relation to strategy.


Problem with THAT strategy is: VW is still partially owned by the government of the state of Lower Saxony, union influence is on a whole 'nuther plane of existence in Germany, VW is one of the faces of German industrial power and engineering, and thus such an exit because of the [email protected] would put such a ginormous black eye on the image of German industry and exports, VW will not be allowed to simply capitulate and exit the NA market. There's already all kinds of conspiracy theories in Germany that dieselgate is an attack by the Evil American Capitalists, simply surrendering the market would topple the German government.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> Can they tell owners that their car isn't compliant to drive, yes.


Despite the fact that their own statements claimed otherwise?


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

aj4066 said:


> You are right, it is complicated.
> 
> But this all came about per an EPA standard. Will the EPA tell VW they have to buy cars back, no. Can they tell owners that their car isn't compliant to drive, yes.


and this is their ONLY leverage....do this and the lawsuits fly.

but again, VW will probably NOT sell diesels in the USA any longer, and it's overall strategy in the USA is now a mess.....and I am sure they are looking long and hard at how much more money they want to invest in the USA.

they nearly pulled out in the 80's and early 90's.....it's not too far fetched to believe they could abandon this market. and no, I'm not talking conspiracy theory....I'm discussing business strategy. and the Germans are well known for taking an "all or nothing" mentality, so it's not too far fetched, nor would it "damage their German ego". 

just look a the CEO's latest interview.....how did he address this issue????


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

aj4066 said:


> the US can pack sand


That'll make it interesting to walk afterwards.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

chris86vw said:


> Larry spelled by wrong, make sure you get on those too! :thumbup:


meh


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

You'reDrunk said:


> just look a the CEO's latest interview.....how did he address this issue????


The company has replaced the CEO and multiple other managers, possibly with more replacements to come. The fact that VW's PR team instantly jumped all over the situation to fix what the CEO told NPR tells me that if needed, VW governance will simply replace CEO Mueller with someone else if Mueller can't get the job done right. We'll see how it all turns out, as I think the larger problem is corruption among the ruling family that truly controls VW. Since the _owners_ of the company are corrupt, that influences every single executive that the ruling family guides in to place. This is why I am personally not a big fan of companies that are run by families. Even if the original family that built the company was extremely qualified and competent, the children that follow are rarely so talented and dedicated to the business as their predecessors.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

You'reDrunk said:


> and this is their ONLY leverage....do this and the lawsuits fly.


The lawsuits are already flying. 

At some point, the EPA is going to pull the plug on VW. The EPA is so powerful it isn't even funny...


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

aj4066 said:


> The EPA is so powerful it isn't even funny...


Oh EPA! Oh, you are so very big! So absolutely huge! Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell you.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> Oh EPA! Oh, you are so very big! So absolutely huge! Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell you.


If your air stays clean no matter what gets pumped into it, then you're fortunate to live there and this doesn't matter to you. But I remember when I moved to Los Angeles 38 years ago and on summer days I couldn't see the mountains north of Pasadena through the smog even though they were only 3 miles away. There was an inversion layer at 3000 feet above the surface that, combined with the 3 mountain ranges to the north, east, and south, effectively trapped all the smog at the city level. Flying down from above the air was beautiful--you could see for miles, and then descending into the inversion layer it was quickly apparent how bad the smog was. The EPA and CARB cleaned all that up to the point that nowadays the inversion layer and smog are non-existent, even during the summer when the smog used to be at its worst.

So just because it doesn't benefit you doesn't mean there's not a benefit. . . .


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

You'reDrunk said:


> Germans are well known for taking an "all or nothing" mentality


What??? That seems completely made up.

Hell, just the history of VW of America proves that Germans are perfectely willing to take "some" rather than "nothing".










You can make good points here, You'reDrunk, but you lose a lot of credibility when you just make stuff up when you think an argument isn't working.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

T5 Dave said:


> If your air stays clean no matter what gets pumped into it, then you're fortunate to live there.


The great and powerful EPA certifies that only approved pollutant levels are pumped into my air.



T5 Dave said:


> The EPA and CARB cleaned all that up to the point that nowadays the inversion layer and smog are non-existent, even during the summer when the smog used to be at its worst.


That's great, so what is the most polluted city in the U.S. now?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Actually that pie shows how bad it got for VW in 2015. They sold just 350,000 cars of the 17,500,000, for just a 2.0% market share. The pie above implies VW had 3.6% as recently as August 2014. Ouch! Either way, I think if they push hard to genuinely fix things the right way they could be competing with the much more successful companies like Kia in America.

EDIT: OK, I see where the 3.6% comes from; they're including all brands that VW group owns to arrive at 3.6%. Even at that, technically Porsche is the true highest level owner nowadays.


----------



## dubdaze68 (Oct 29, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> Oh EPA! Oh, you are so very big! So absolutely huge! Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell you.












I see what you did there. Lol.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

220 pages later....


----------



## grounded87 (Nov 5, 2002)

GoHomeBroke said:


> 220 pages later....


...and we still don't know what they're going to do. :facepalm:


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

grounded87 said:


> ...and we still don't know what they're going to do. :facepalm:


Mueller's comments did NOT help and make the company look like it's run by amateurs. My wife doesn't want to give up her Jetta for anybody, she actually likes the car that much.

I'm worried at this point. . . .


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

T5 Dave said:


> Mueller's comments did NOT help and make the company look like it's run by amateurs. My wife doesn't want to give up her Jetta for anybody, she actually likes the car that much.
> 
> I'm worried at this point. . . .


Unless you're super green I can't live with myself polluting extra in my car, I don't really know if theres too much to be worried about. The cars are obviously still 100% safe to drive.

At this point its just a matter of what the fix will be (if any) and how long it will take to implement that fix. If they offer a buyback I also don't know if you would be forced to actually go through with that if you really like the car.


Honestly its just a continue to wait and see through the smog game and continue to chug along in the jetta coal rolling everyone.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

noatonement said:


> Unless you're super green I can't live with myself polluting extra in my car, I don't really know if theres too much to be worried about. The cars are obviously still 100% safe to drive.
> 
> At this point its just a matter of what the fix will be (if any) and how long it will take to implement that fix. If they offer a buyback I also don't know if you would be forced to actually go through with that if you really like the car.
> 
> ...


Trouble is, I live in California and they will most likely make me do the 'accepted' fix before I can register it again. Fortunately I have a year to go, but if CARB forces a buyback then I won't be able to re-register it come next year. If it was in a state where there was no CARB or mandatory check or fix for the enforcement, yeah, I'd stall as long as I could and not take it in. But

But we were hoping to get another 8 years out of the Jetta of no car payments. . . .


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

T5 Dave said:


> I'm worried at this point. . . .


Deep breaths and plenty of valium.. it will be OK


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

Silly_me said:


> Oh EPA! Oh, you are so very big! So absolutely huge! Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell you.





dubdaze68 said:


> I see what you did there. Lol.



Haha brilliant :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :beer:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

So whats new in the VW scandal? 

Check out what these fine Americans did. They got ticked off for what VW did and decided to stop driving their diesel VW, and bought an EV to 'not harm the environment'. Then, they hopped in their toxic polluting car and drove it half way across the country to protest. Yep. They drove from Boulder, CO to Detroit to get attention, then are moving along to Richmond, VA to protest and return their car to VW. The amount of hilarity in this is staggering. (get my sarcasm?)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...en-diesel-protesters-stop-auto-show/78946400/
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-volkswagen-customers-protest-0116-biz-20160115-story.html

Cliff notes to the articles:
-Said husband and wife are of the Pro-EPA type folks, they are environmentalists. They bought a diesel due to its 'clean technology'.
-VW then drops the bombshell that they toxic vehicles, couple then buys an electric vehicle because they were upset with the pollution the VW created
-The couple then get pissed off and decide to return their vehicle to VW
-Rather than taking the vehicle to their local dealership, or ship the vehicle, they drive it from Boulder, CO to Detroit to gain attention and signatures to their petition. Hashtags and websites are plastered all over their vehicle to gain awareness
-from Detroit, they are driving the car to Richmond, VA to return the car personally to VW and demand they buy it back

opcorn:


----------



## Atl-Atl (Jun 7, 2006)

aj4066 said:


> So whats new in the VW scandal?
> 
> Check out what these fine Americans did. They got ticked off for what VW did and decided to stop driving their diesel VW, and bought an EV to 'not harm the environment'. Then, they hopped in their toxic polluting car and drove it half way across the country to protest. Yep. They drove from Boulder, CO to Detroit to get attention, then are moving along to Richmond, VA to protest and return their car to VW. The amount of hilarity in this is staggering. (get my sarcasm?)
> 
> ...


Hah, thats par for the course in Boulder. This story hasn't even made the news in Denver.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

aj4066 said:


> So whats new in the VW scandal?
> 
> Check out what these fine Americans did. They got ticked off for what VW did and decided to stop driving their diesel VW, and bought an EV to 'not harm the environment'. Then, they hopped in their toxic polluting car and drove it half way across the country to protest. Yep. They drove from Boulder, CO to Detroit to get attention, then are moving along to Richmond, VA to protest and return their car to VW. The amount of hilarity in this is staggering. (get my sarcasm?)
> 
> ...


^That is so friggin cute, they must have a ton of vacation time saved up and so thoughtful of them to use it in order to go cross country spreading their message.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

This is the sort of thing that happens when you offer hippies legal weed.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

My vehicle is too toxic for me to drive or own because of my environmental morals, so I am going to drive it across the country to bring awareness as to just how toxic my vehicle is. Oh, and I am going to drive it far out of my way along the way to return it to the manufacture after they told me not to bring it back to them. :laugh:


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

aj4066 said:


> My vehicle is too toxic for me to drive or own because of my environmental morals, so I am going to drive it across the country to bring awareness as to just how toxic my vehicle is. Oh, and I am going to drive it far out of my way along the way to return it to the manufacture after they told me not to bring it back to them. :laugh:


Likely a conscious decision that pollution from 1,800mi of driving < pollution caused by others' cars still being on the road due to VW not buying them back, hence a need to raise awareness.

It's like flying to a conference on Climate Change. It doesn't make sense at the micro level, but the whole point is to make a difference on the macro level.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Mike! said:


> Likely a conscious decision that pollution from 1,800mi of driving < pollution caused by others' cars still being on the road due to VW not buying them back, hence a need to raise awareness. It's like flying to a conference on Climate Change. It doesn't make sense at the micro level, but the whole point is to make a difference on the macro level.


It doesn't make sense at all. 

If you feel so bad that you are polluting the environment with your vehicle, don't take a parade lap with it across half of the country with hashtags all over it telling people how awful your car is. 

FWIW, VW has already told them that they aren't getting anything when they get there. The article says that they want to leave their vehicle with VW and force VW to give them a receipt with an IOU. 
Good luck with that.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Mike! said:


> It's like flying to a conference on Climate Change. It doesn't make sense at the micro level, but the whole point is to make a difference on the macro level.


This is more like flying a private jet to a bailout meeting, it doesn't make sense on any level.


----------



## woofsburger (Aug 11, 2008)

Ricky Bobby said:


> ^That is so friggin cute, they must have a ton of vacation time saved up and so thoughtful of them to use it in order to go cross country spreading their message.


Based on the location of residency, inclinations, and actions of the participants, I'm going to guess the most likely explanation is a trust fund. Like I would literally bet a few greenbacks on that being the reality.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

woofsburger said:


> Based on the location of residency, inclinations, and actions of the participants, I'm going to guess the most likely explanation is a trust fund. Like I would literally bet a few greenbacks on that being the reality.


^Not a bad theory although I don't know as much about the area, I just know its starting to get "polluted" (too soon?) with pseudo-intellectuals. Add to the legal pot and you have a nice recipe out in those parts.

It just came to my mind that jeez if I wanted to pull this off I'd have to plan and save for it a year in advance. I always wonder that when watching protests or riots, Occupy Wall Street, etc, I'm always stuck thinking "man how do they have all this time off to do nothing? Don't they have to get to work like the rest of us?"


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Ricky Bobby said:


> ^Not a bad theory although I don't know as much about the area, I just know its starting to get "polluted" (too soon?) with pseudo-intellectuals. Add to the legal pot and you have a nice recipe out in those parts.
> 
> It just came to my mind that jeez if I wanted to pull this off I'd have to plan and save for it a year in advance. I always wonder that when watching protests or riots, Occupy Wall Street, etc, I'm always stuck thinking "man how do they have all this time off to do nothing? Don't they have to get to work like the rest of us?"


They likely also feel the bern. Just another assumption that seems to fit the profile. And BTW, its not pot, its medication. :laugh:


----------



## Jimmy Russells (Feb 4, 2007)

Mike! said:


> conscious decision


I don't think there was any of that going on.


----------



## auR32 (Jul 21, 2004)

aj4066 said:


> -Rather than taking the vehicle to their local dealership, or ship the vehicle, they drive it from Boulder, CO to Detroit to gain attention and signatures to their petition. Hashtags and websites are plastered all over their vehicle to gain awareness
> -from Detroit, they are driving the car to Richmond, VA to return the car personally to VW and demand they buy it back


From the article:



> Last fall, the couple returned their car to a dealership in Colorado, but it would keep it on their lot for only about a month, citing liability concerns.


So they tried to return the vehicle locally but it was not accepted. Making a big fuss about it and dumping it at head office might well be more effective.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

auR32 said:


> So they tried to return the vehicle locally but it was not accepted. Making a big fuss about it and dumping it at head office might well be more effective.


Seems like they enjoy making a point more than they say they love the environment. I wonder if the after taste of smug will cover up the extra soot they make?


----------



## NoDubJustYet (Mar 25, 2002)

aj4066 said:


> -Said husband and wife are of the Pro-EPA type folks, they are environmentalists. They bought a diesel due to its 'clean technology'.
> -VW then drops the bombshell that they toxic vehicles, couple then buys an electric vehicle because they were upset with the pollution the VW created
> -The couple then get pissed off and decide to return their vehicle to VW
> -Rather than taking the vehicle to their local dealership, or ship the vehicle, they drive it from Boulder, CO to Detroit to gain attention and signatures to their petition. Hashtags and websites are plastered all over their vehicle to gain awareness
> ...


Richmond?

LOL

Do they mean Reston?


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Stupid auto correct. :banghead:

AUR32, the CT article (which I now have to pay to read) indicated that VW told them they weren't taking the vehicle and to not come to their HQ. VW HQ doesn't want anything to do with the consumer. Now...if 20k people showed up, things might happen.


----------



## 15gTDI (Jul 3, 2015)

It takes all types to make the world go round. It's a free country I guess.

Posted via my phablet using Tapatalk


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> Stupid auto correct. :banghead:
> 
> AUR32, the CT article (which I now have to pay to read) indicated that VW told them they weren't taking the vehicle and to not come to their HQ. VW HQ doesn't want anything to do with the consumer. Now...if 20k people showed up, things might happen.


I'm actually surprised that, given how easy it would be to coordinate such a thing, a bunch of TDI owners haven't gathered at VWoA HQ and camped out in their parking lot. After notifying media outlets, of course.

If 50 or 100 owners showed up overnight and pitched tents in the lot, you'd have instant nationwide media coverage, and an awkward situation for VW. What do you do, call the cops and have 50 of your customers dragged away in cuffs? That would play _real_ well on TV and social media.

I'm not condoning such a thing, but I'm surprised someone who is a bit wacked out to begin with hasn't done it. Camp out there and say you're going on a hunger strike until VW refunds you your initial purchase price. Would put the mfr in a bit of a PR bind, I think.


----------



## cloud09 (Jan 14, 2011)

AZGolf said:


> I hate to nitpick, but this is the second time you've used elude when the correct word is allude.


LOL! 


chris86vw said:


> I hate to nitpick, but historically the person making spelling and grammar complaints has no real point to make in regards to the actual discussion.
> 
> 
> Larry spelled by wrong, make sure you get on those too!



Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

syncro87 said:


> I'm actually surprised that, given how easy it would be to coordinate such a thing, a bunch of TDI owners haven't gathered at VWoA HQ and camped out in their parking lot. After notifying media outlets, of course.
> 
> If 50 or 100 owners showed up overnight and pitched tents in the lot, you'd have instant nationwide media coverage, and an awkward situation for VW. What do you do, call the cops and have 50 of your customers dragged away in cuffs? That would play _real_ well on TV and social media.
> 
> I'm not condoning such a thing, but I'm surprised someone who is a bit wacked out to begin with hasn't done it. Camp out there and say you're going on a hunger strike until VW refunds you your initial purchase price. Would put the mfr in a bit of a PR bind, I think.


This kind of action would be completely unnecessary IMO, especially since a longer term solution is in the works. If it were a peaceful event, that'd probably be fine. But I would hate for someone to take that opportunity to do something bad to people who have little to do with the actual scandal. While the company as a whole is seen as the bad guy, it's the fraud committed at the upper level management and engineering levels that should be held ultimately responsible.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

vbora01 said:


> I hope that they would be taken away in cuffs. That kind of action would be completely unnecessary. Think about what happens when angry people congregate. Once that happens, the real crazies come out of the woodwork and things start happening to people that had nothing to do with the actual scandal.


I'm stunned that on Martin Luther King Jr. day you made a post saying that people should not be allowed to congregate together for a cause; that they should instead be taken away in cuffs. I can only hope you were kidding and making the post as some sort of edgy social commentary, ESPECIALLY based on your location being listed as North Carolina - the site of the Woolworths sit-in.


----------



## Impeccable (Apr 17, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> I'm stunned that on Martin Luther King Jr. day you made a post saying that people should not be allowed to congregate together for a cause; that they should instead be taken away in cuffs. I can only hope you were kidding and making the post as some sort of edgy social commentary, ESPECIALLY based on your location being listed as North Carolina - the site of the Woolworths sit-in.



Excellent post I must say:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

AZGolf said:


> I'm stunned that on Martin Luther King Jr. day you made a post saying that people should not be allowed to congregate together for a cause; that they should instead be taken away in cuffs. I can only hope you were kidding and making the post as some sort of edgy social commentary, ESPECIALLY based on your location being listed as North Carolina - the site of the Woolworths sit-in.


Apologists for VW are everywhere on a VW centric forum to be honest. I wasn't surprised by the unfortunate post.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

AZGolf said:


> I'm stunned that on Martin Luther King Jr. day you made a post saying that people should not be allowed to congregate together for a cause; that they should instead be taken away in cuffs. I can only hope you were kidding and making the post as some sort of edgy social commentary, ESPECIALLY based on your location being listed as North Carolina - the site of the Woolworths sit-in.


Doubtful he's even aware of the history he's trying to trample. :facepalm:


----------



## TangoRed (Sep 7, 2005)

vbora01 said:


> I hope that they would be taken away in cuffs. That kind of action would be completely unnecessary. Think about what happens when angry people congregate. Once that happens, the real crazies come out of the woodwork and things start happening to people that had nothing to do with the actual scandal.
> 
> I'm sure the majority of American owners are enjoying the cheapest gas prices we've seen in a while combined with a nice long range on their TDi's. If these prices keep up, I'm sure they could recoup some of the depreciated value in no time.





AZGolf said:


> I'm stunned that on Martin Luther King Jr. day you made a post saying that people should not be allowed to congregate together for a cause; that they should instead be taken away in cuffs. I can only hope you were kidding and making the post as some sort of edgy social commentary, ESPECIALLY based on your location being listed as North Carolina - the site of the Woolworths sit-in.


Excellent response AZGolf. :thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> I'm stunned that on Martin Luther King Jr. day you made a post saying that people should not be allowed to congregate together for a cause; that they should instead be taken away in cuffs. I can only hope you were kidding and making the post as some sort of edgy social commentary, ESPECIALLY based on your location being listed as North Carolina - the site of the Woolworths sit-in.


That wasn't my intention at all. I knew there was a reason why I hesitate to post things on the internet. Things get really blown out of proportion. But, I'll apologize if the wrong idea was set by that post.

Damage is already done though, I'll accept that. FWIW, I've tried to modify the original post to reflect more of what I meant. I'm not trying to be an apologist for VW either. What they did was wrong, there is no questioning that. But it takes time to identify the root cause and hold the right people responsible for this.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW will hire ex-FBI chief Freeh for U.S. role, report says*



> FRANKFURT -- Volkswagen Group plans to hire Louis Freeh, a former head of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, to help the automaker deal with authorities in the U.S. investigating its emissions scandal, a German newspaper said.
> 
> Freeh would be employed as an adviser to help VW minimize the damage after company admitted rigging engines to cheat NOx emissions tests, the Sueddeutsche Zeitung said in a report on Monday.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Volkswagen faces shareholder claims over emissions scandal*



> FRANKFURT (Reuters) -- Dozens of large shareholders in Volkswagen plan to sue the automaker in a German court, seeking compensation for the plunge in its shares due to its emissions test cheating scandal.
> 
> Law firm Nieding + Barth today said it would lodge a case with a regional court in Brunswick this week, seeking hundreds of millions of euros in damages on behalf of 66 institutional investors from the United States and Britain.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW's South Korea chief faces criminal case over emissions recall*



> SEOUL (Reuters) -- South Korea plans to file a criminal complaint against the country’s head of Volkswagen and Audi. It says a recall plan for emissions-cheating cars fell short of legal requirements.
> 
> The complaint will be filed by the environment ministry against Johannes Thammer, managing director of Audi Volkswagen Korea. It is the latest in a flurry of legal actions around the world against Volkswagen after the automaker admitted in September to falsifying U.S. emissions tests on some of its diesel cars.
> 
> ...


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

syncro87 said:


> I'm actually surprised that, given how easy it would be to coordinate such a thing, a bunch of TDI owners haven't gathered at VWoA HQ and camped out in their parking lot. After notifying media outlets, of course.
> 
> If 50 or 100 owners showed up overnight and pitched tents in the lot, you'd have instant nationwide media coverage, and an awkward situation for VW. What do you do, call the cops and have 50 of your customers dragged away in cuffs? That would play _real_ well on TV and social media.
> 
> I'm not condoning such a thing, but I'm surprised someone who is a bit wacked out to begin with hasn't done it. Camp out there and say you're going on a hunger strike until VW refunds you your initial purchase price. Would put the mfr in a bit of a PR bind, I think.


50-100 people out of the hundreds of thousands of vehicles/people affected is a drip in the bucket. These people going to VW today claim to have 20k signatures of those who want to see VW buy vehicles back. My guess is that most of those signatures are from those who don't even own a VW and just want to stick it to those evil rich people.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

aj4066 said:


> So whats new in the VW scandal?
> 
> Check out what these fine Americans did. They got ticked off for what VW did and decided to stop driving their diesel VW, and bought an EV to 'not harm the environment'. Then, they hopped in their toxic polluting car and drove it half way across the country to protest. Yep. They drove from Boulder, CO to Detroit to get attention, then are moving along to Richmond, VA to protest and return their car to VW. The amount of hilarity in this is staggering. (get my sarcasm?)
> 
> ...


But at 43 mpg their carbon footprint for the same trip was about 1/3 less than a petrol-powered equivalent getting only 25 mpg for the same trip, so that's a minor consolation, at least.

And, if memory serves me, the folks doing the testing noted the NOx emissions in steady-state cruise actually met spec, the NOX peaked at the 40x levels above spec when the car was accelerated. So, in fact, they really didn't pollute that much extra if they remained at a steady speed from Boulder to NC.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

spockcat said:


> *VW will hire ex-FBI chief Freeh for U.S. role, report says*





spockcat said:


> *Volkswagen faces shareholder claims over emissions scandal*





spockcat said:


> *VW's South Korea chief faces criminal case over emissions recall*


And the hits keep coming. :laugh: Hey VW if you're reading this thread, buy my car back and I promise not to join any lawsuits.:wave:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> But at 43 mpg their carbon footprint for the same trip was about 1/3 less than a petrol-powered equivalent getting only 25 mpg for the same trip, so that's a minor consolation, at least.


so their CLEAN diesel did as advertised  :thumbup:




> And, if memory serves me, the folks doing the testing noted the NOx emissions in steady-state cruise actually met spec, the NOX peaked at the 40x levels above spec when the car was accelerated. So, in fact, they really didn't pollute that much extra if they remained at a steady speed from Boulder to NC.


In the Jetta steady state still was just at or over from what I recall, the Passat at steady state I believe was under spec. 

They also pointlessly (and likely always had) left their roof rack bars on for the drive, which very well have pushed it over into not passing.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

vbora01 said:


> That wasn't my intention at all. I knew there was a reason why I hesitate to post things on the internet.


Well let me just say that we've all been there, and I know the feeling.  :beer:


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

chris86vw said:


> In the Jetta steady state still was just at or over from what I recall, the Passat at steady state I believe was under spec.
> 
> They also pointlessly (and likely always had) left their roof rack bars on for the drive, which very well have pushed it over into not passing.


I'm trying to re-find the reference to that. I remember reading it, but I forgot to bookmark it. Do you have any link to that story?

Thanks.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> But at 43 mpg their carbon footprint for the same trip was about 1/3 less than a petrol-powered equivalent getting only 25 mpg for the same trip, so that's a minor consolation, at least.


Because I'm that guy who loves accuracy, I'll jump in here. Burning diesel produces 14% more CO2 per gallon than gasoline. EIA source So actually from a CO2 standpoint, getting 43mpg with a Diesel Jetta on the highway is actually only equal to a 37.7mpg gasoline car. As we all know, there's plenty of gasoline cars that get at least 37-38mpg on the highway even without counting hybrids at all. I really think that we're in the final years of diesel passenger cars, especially given the price premium that diesel engines command over gasoline engines. They still hold a meaningful advantage in trucks, but they are no longer really worthwhile in regular passenger cars.


----------



## dubdaze68 (Oct 29, 2001)

Yeah, but in city real world driving, stop/go traffic, gas engines mileage plummets into the high 20's, no matter what the window sticker says. Diesels still get close to 40 in those conditions.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

vbora01 said:


> But, I'll apologize if the wrong idea was set by that post.


Bad form. This is the Car Lounge, never back down, never retreat, stick with any position, however implausible and rabblerousing, to the bitter end. Fight for every opinion, every length of insanity. Capitulation is for the weak, sympathy is for the pathetic. Shine on you crazy diamond.




AZGolf said:


> Burning diesel produces 14% more CO2 per gallon than gasoline.



Isn't that for law abiding diesels? I was under the impression that cheatergate models produced less co2 at the expense of more nox, am I remembering wrong?


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Surprised Boulder couple didn't drag a couple thousand Berners with them and held a campout protest in the parking lot at Herndon VA - "All Diesels Matter" - "What do we want? Buybacks! When do we want them? Now!"


----------



## silverlegacy (Mar 17, 2011)

dubdaze68 said:


> Yeah, but in city real world driving, stop/go traffic, gas engines mileage plummets into the high 20's, no matter what the window sticker says. Diesels still get close to 40 in those conditions.


My Fiesta is supposed to only get 26 in town according to the EPA... the lowest it has ever gotten on a tank is 31 (all city driving). Anecdotal, but modern DI gas burners can get great mileage in town.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

dubdaze68 said:


> Yeah, but in city real world driving, stop/go traffic, gas engines mileage plummets into the high 20's, no matter what the window sticker says. Diesels still get close to 40 in those conditions.


Plus, don't forget the ethanol penalty that saps another 5% (or more) mpg that the diesel doesn't have to deal with. (Ooh, now there's a message: "Hey world, you go starve while I use my corn to make ethanol for our cars." Great message, there.)

The diesel is a great interim solution while we wait for BEV technology to be perfected and mass produced to get a 200+ mile range from a single charge. Then diesels can fade away or be used for long-range trips while the BEV's take over DD jobs.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> Bad form. This is the Car Lounge, never back down, never retreat, stick with any position, however implausible and rabblerousing, to the bitter end. Fight for every opinion, every length of insanity. Capitulation is for the weak, sympathy is for the pathetic. Shine on you crazy diamond.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, it was only NOx that was the problem.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Surprised Boulder couple didn't drag a couple thousand Berners with them and held a campout protest in the parking lot at Herndon VA - "All Diesels Matter" - "What do we want? Buybacks! When do we want them? Now!"


I'm surprised Boulder Couple didn't realize when they bought the BEV before the life of the TDI was used up they actually caused *more* overall emissions to the planet as a result of the manufacturing of the new car.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

T5 Dave said:


> I'm surprised Boulder Couple didn't realize when they bought the BEV before the life of the TDI was used up they actually caused *more* overall emissions to the planet as a result of the manufacturing of the new car.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Ricky Bobby said:


> "All Diesels Matter"


I want this as a bumper sticker :laugh:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Jalopnik has a great article regarding these fine Americans. It summarizes everything thats already been stated, except they left out the hashtags that were said to be on the toxic VW and how ludicrous it is to drive their polluting vehicle across the country to make a point that it is toxic and should be taken off of the roadways. 

http://jalopnik.com/this-couple-is-driving-cross-country-to-return-their-po-1753421381


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

dubdaze68 said:


> Yeah, but in city real world driving, *stop/go traffic*, gas engines mileage plummets into the high 20's, no matter what the window sticker says. *Diesels still get close to 40 in those conditions.*


They do not, and they certainly will not once emissions legal. The EPA City rating on a 2015 Jetta TDI is 31mpg and that's not even an emissions legal car. Meanwhile the Chevy Cruze diesel is emissions legal and rated at 27mpg City. Those figures are nothing special compared against the latest crop of 1.0-1.5 liter turbocharged gasoline cars available. It's possible we'll see lower MPG ratings and very likely we'll see lower real-world MPG for TDI products once VW has to make them emissions legal.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

AZGolf said:


> They do not, and they certainly will not once emissions legal. The EPA City rating on a 2015 Jetta TDI is 31mpg and that's not even an emissions legal car. Meanwhile the Chevy Cruze diesel is emissions legal and rated at 27mpg City. Those figures are nothing special compared against the latest crop of 1.0-1.5 liter turbocharged gasoline cars available. It's possible we'll see lower MPG ratings and very likely we'll see lower real-world MPG for TDI products once VW has to make them emissions legal.


Aren't current TDI owners actually getting above the EPA rating in their illegal cars so we could just very well assume that when (and if) they make them legal, they'll actually return the EPA estimate.


Your above statement is just an assumption that a fix will lead to reduced MPG, same as the other assumptions that a fix will lead to reduce HP/TQ. Unless some new evidence has been brought, there's nothing showing besides pure speculation that this will actually happen. I almost think a more logical assumption would be that the fix would bring the cars inline with the EPA's rating, since i assume those ratings were calculated when the cars were running the Test cycle.


----------



## grounded87 (Nov 5, 2002)

Anecdotal sure, but I've tracked over 50K on Fuelly with my '11 TDI scandal-mobile. I'm just shy of 40MPG average. 

http://www.fuelly.com/car/volkswagen/golf/2011/grounded87/309993

I do 85% interstate and drive at 80mph as much as possible, with no real efforts towards fuel savings. 

The car is EPA rated at 30city/42hwy. 

This era of TDI doesn't exceed the EPA mpg ratings nearly as much as the older cars. My mk4 TDI (ALH) driven the same route and with the same aggressiveness/speeds, exceeded the EPA MPG ratings, as I averaged over 45MPG all day long. That car was rated at 35/44MPG fwiw. Proof:

http://www.fuelly.com/car/volkswagen/golf/1999/grounded87/35418

The mk6 is a much nicer car to be in, they were already under pressure at reduced efficiency vs. their older models, even with cheating. I was disspointed to give up over 5mpg in real world use going mk4 to mk6. I'll be further disappointed if this drops even more.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> I'm surprised Boulder Couple didn't realize when they bought the BEV before the life of the TDI was used up they actually caused *more* overall emissions to the planet as a result of the manufacturing of the new car.


That is exactly why I have said a few times that a buy back is laughable for anyone who claims this is about the environment, including these people.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> No, it was only NOx that was the problem.


He was stating that CO2 was better because they are lean burning not that CO2 was a problem. The lean burning increases NOx emissions which is part of the problem. The lower CO2 resulted in more NOx which then was not properly handled.


----------



## Stevenk83 (Feb 11, 2013)

After 85k miles in my 2011 JSW, I sure don't beat the numbers like many seem to do. I've calculated the numbers by hand and I've averaged 32mpg with about a 50/50 city/highway. It appears that DSG equipped cars tend to have get lower mpg. I also believe that the hot weather year round doesn't help. I notice for the couple of cool days we do happen to get, I pick up a couple of mpg for that tank.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> He was stating that CO2 was better because they are lean burning not that CO2 was a problem. The lean burning increases NOx emissions which is part of the problem. The lower CO2 resulted in more NOx which then was not properly handled.


Mostly, although for the US market VW cared about CO, not CO2. As far as regulated emissions, PM, CO, NOx, and HC are the big ones that are regulated. We have indirectly regulated CO2 since the 1970's via our CAFE legislation. I say indirectly because its based only on MPG over a whole fleet, and of course MPG gives a huge undeserved advantage to diesel, which is packs 14% more CO2 per gallon than gasoline.

Anyway, as for CO & NOx, they are inversely related. As you go richer, you get more CO, but lower NOx. As you go leaner, you get less CO & HC (and more MPG / lower CO2 per mile) but more NOx. When VW transitioned from the old bare-bones emissions that were in effect in 2005 to the Tier 2 emissions categories, they had to reduce everything, so they reduced CO & HC by running leaner, but then fitted the cars with a NOx trap to address the NOx. We now know that it was a scam, that the NOx trap wasn't capable of running full time - only long enough to pass an EPA test, but at any rate that was the deal with CO & NOx.

The graph below says gasoline, but the basic principles are the same with diesel.


----------



## mccatio (Jan 19, 2016)

*this is for real*

hi there


----------



## woofsburger (Aug 11, 2008)

AZGolf said:


> I'm stunned that on Martin Luther King Jr. day you made a post saying that people should not be allowed to congregate together for a cause; that they should instead be taken away in cuffs. I can only hope you were kidding and making the post as some sort of edgy social commentary, ESPECIALLY based on your location being listed as North Carolina - the site of the Woolworths sit-in.


Just confirming that you're drawing a correlation between watershed human rights events in the history of the United States, with a couple of trustafarians planning trespass of private property, for a stunt based on an offended ideological image. I'm assuming no sarcasm was inferred in the above post, but I'm hoping otherwise.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

Stevenk83 said:


> After 85k miles in my 2011 JSW, I sure don't beat the numbers like many seem to do. I've calculated the numbers by hand and I've averaged 32mpg with about a 50/50 city/highway. It appears that DSG equipped cars tend to have get lower mpg. I also believe that the hot weather year round doesn't help. I notice for the couple of cool days we do happen to get, I pick up a couple of mpg for that tank.


The hotter the better when it comes to TDIs. The final gear ratio between the DSG and manual is almost the same, highway mileage should be extremely close as well. Something is up with your car.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

No new news popped up on my feed about the VW diesel tree huggers.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW should compensate European customers with rigged diesels, EU commissioner says*



> BRUSSELS (Reuters) -- European Union Industry Commissioner Elzbieta Bienkowska is calling on Volkswagen to compensate Europeans customers hit by the company's emissions scandal in the same way as U.S. customers.
> 
> Bienkowska is also asking VW for detailed information on cars affected by the automaker's emissions rigging.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW board stands by CEO Mueller after U.S. trip missteps*



> FRANKFURT (Bloomberg) -- Volkswagen Group's supervisory board stood by CEO Matthias Mueller even after he sparked a media firestorm in the U.S. last week that complicated efforts to clear up the diesel-emissions scandal.
> 
> Mueller's role was never under discussion and any speculation to the contrary will be "emphatically rejected," a VW spokesman said on Tuesday, following a meeting between the CEO and automaker's supervisory board leaders.
> 
> ...


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

FL Lemon Law Board going after VW today... not a fan of the local news being there

"Volkswagen just asked Lemon Law Board to have us leave if it made them feel uncomfortable that we were here. They lost."


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

spockcat said:


> *VW board stands by CEO Mueller after U.S. trip missteps*


Good one -


> Mueller drew criticism after telling a National Public Radio interviewer that Volkswagen "didn’t lie" when first asked about irregularities between real-life and test emissions in its diesel cars.
> 
> In a follow-up interview, Mueller apologized and blamed his initial statements on noisy surroundings.


----------



## wb4yye (Jan 20, 2005)

*Estimating Damages And Deaths From The Volkwagen Emissions Scandal*

From _Chemical and Engineering News_ , a publication of the American Chemical Society.

http://cen.acs.org/articles/94/web/2016/01/Estimating-Damages-Deaths-Volkwagen-Emissions.html


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

dmorrow said:


> Good one -


What happened to the "no speakum English" excuse??? :laugh:


----------



## VeeDubDriver (Oct 1, 2001)

rich! said:


> FL Lemon Law Board going after VW today... not a fan of the local news being there
> 
> "Volkswagen just asked Lemon Law Board to have us leave if it made them feel uncomfortable that we were here. They lost."


http://www.wptv.com/news/region-n-p...earing-over-volkswagen-emissions-scandal?9843

UPDATE: The Florida Lemon Law board just ruled in favor of the South Florida driver who brought a claim against Volkswagen over the diesel scandal.

"I feel they should have settled with me," explained driver Walter Melnyk.

Melnyk has faced major roadblocks since filing a lemon law claim. Volkswagen tried to block the hearing by taking Melnyk to court. A judge ruled against Volkswagen and allowed the hearing to continue.

Then Volkswagen tried to block WPTV from recording the hearing. Volkswagen lost that argument too.

"I'm not intimidated," said the 86 year old Melnyk. "Why would you want to pick on a little guy like me?"

Volkswagen spent several hours trying to pick apart Melnyk's lemon law claim.

"Have you tried to trade in the vehicle?" Volkswagen's attorney asked.

Melnyk had not. Volkswagen claimed the car is not a lemon because Melnyk still drives it.

Melnyk said it's his only car, and the dealership refused to look at it.

In the end, the Florida Lemon Law board agreed that Melnyk was sold a lemon and the car maker should take the car back and give Melnyk $15,000 for it.

"This will effect the whole state of Florida on the lemon law," Melnyk said.

He urged other drivers to file claims too.

A Jacksonville driver filed a claim late last year, and Volkswagen won that case. A different set of arbitrators heard today's hearing. Each case is tried on its own merits.
Melnyk is just one guy, but one guy whose story is touching others.

"I'm really pleased they ruled in favor of the small guy because it gives me more hope," explained Stephen Rosenfeld.

He saw our story and showed up at the hearing to see how a lemon law case works and pick up pointers for his own lemon law claim that he plans to file.

Volkswagen can appeal the decision. At this point, they are not commenting.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Game on!


----------



## dubdaze68 (Oct 29, 2001)

How can you lemon law a fully functioning vehicle with no service problems? The reason the dealer refused to look at it was, there is NO FIX YET.


----------



## Eye Candy White (Nov 9, 2006)

Not seeing mention of the year/miles on this car?

If he was given pre-scandal fair market value, this is huge. I have a 15' that I have no plans of getting out of, but would love some kind of settlement for them selling me a car they knew had emmissions problems. Feeling lied to and cheated is not something I take lightly.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dubdaze68 said:


> How can you lemon law a fully functioning vehicle with no service problems? The reason the dealer refused to look at it was, there is NO FIX YET.


I'll paraphrase my take away from the article:

We, the lemon law board, just do whatever the fk we want...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Eye Candy White said:


> I have a 15' that I have no plans of getting out of, but would love some kind of settlement for them selling me a car they knew had emmissions problems. Feeling lied to and cheated is not something I take lightly.


Yet there is no evidence at this point that your 2015 has actual emissions problems other than the defeat software, which IMHO, meh.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

dubdaze68 said:


> How can you lemon law a fully functioning vehicle with no service problems?


The FLA is so powerful it isn't even funny...


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Silly_me said:


> The FLA is so powerful it isn't even funny...


:beer:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

aj4066 said:


> :beer:


:thumbup:


----------



## grounded87 (Nov 5, 2002)

Is anyone else holding off on any mods/maintenance in waiting for clarification in what they are actually going to do? 

My '11 Golf TDI has ~117K on it, and is fast approaching the 120K timing belt service interval. If there's any chance of a buyback, I will take that option. I'd rather not dump the money into the TB/pump/etc. only to have them announce a buyback a few weeks later. Conversely, if this is going to drag out for another 6 months... at my current ~35K/year, I'm going to be at 120K next month. 

Even if they just flat out announced the "fix" and no buyback, I'd be fine with that too, as I'd move on with the planned maintenance $$, and carry forward with other mods I have planned. I have a GTI bumper for "GTD" style swap waiting to go on, coilovers in the garage I'd planned to install this spring, etc. along with a visit to my local painter to have some touchup work done with the bumper swap. 

The lack of plan forward is frustrating. :banghead:


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

dubdaze68 said:


> How can you lemon law a fully functioning vehicle with no service problems? The reason the dealer refused to look at it was, there is NO FIX YET.


FL law is a bit generic besides the 3 tries rule / 15 days

"The Lemon Law covers defects or conditions that substantially impair the use, *value* or safety of a new or demonstrator vehicle "

You have 24 months from delivery + 60days. 

Seems like a viable option now that this has been set.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

grounded87 said:


> Is anyone else holding off on any mods/maintenance in waiting for clarification in what they are actually going to do?


No, I'm not holding off on maintaining my vehicle, that's a really bad idea.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

grounded87 said:


> Is anyone else holding off on any mods/maintenance in waiting for clarification in what they are actually going to do?


Maintenance? timing belt you mention? it hurts but no f'n way would i play that game, get it done worry about getting recouped for that if there happens to be some sort of buy back. 


Bumper? coil overs? yeah hold off unless maybe the suspension you were doing yourself.


----------



## MEIN_VW (Jul 29, 2000)

grounded87 said:


> Is anyone else holding off on any mods/maintenance in waiting for clarification in what they are actually going to do?


I'm not holding off on maintenance. God knows how long it's going to take them to implement a plan of action. I'm certainly not spending any money on mods until I know what the plan is.


----------



## grounded87 (Nov 5, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> Maintenance? timing belt you mention? it hurts but no f'n way would i play that game, get it done worry about getting recouped for that if there happens to be some sort of buy back.
> 
> 
> Bumper? coil overs? yeah hold off unless maybe the suspension you were doing yourself.


Well for example I know others who are facing DPF issues locally, who are just driving their other cars while waiting to see how this washes out. The cost to repair that is in the thousands of dollars. There's "must do" maintenance, and then there's "I'll wait and see what happens" issues... like taking on EGR/DPF repairs out of pocket on a car that runs/drives fine (and a system that may be replaced by recall regardless). 

I can easily commute in our V50 for awhile. At current fuel prices it barely makes any cost savings to run the TDI anyways, so if that means keeping a $1K+ maintenance job postponed, that's just fine. 

LOL @ VW reimbursing me for timing belt and other service. :laugh:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

grounded87 said:


> LOL @ VW reimbursing me for timing belt and other service. :laugh:


They do all the time, don't laugh at things you don't understand.


Failure to maintain may result in a loss in payout/value as well. Would you pay the same for a vehicle that has 121k and didn't have the timing belt vs one that did?


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Dieselgate really made a lot of normal OCD-maintenance interval owners into a bunch of out of pocket cheapskates.

Soon a lot of TDI's will be rolling on bald tires because why would you spend $$$ on a set of tires with the prospect of a buyback - trade it in with bald tires, no oil changes and a clogged DPF lol


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

chris86vw said:


> They do all the time, don't laugh at things you don't understand.
> 
> 
> Failure to maintain may result in a loss in payout/value as well. Would you pay the same for a vehicle that has 121k and didn't have the timing belt vs one that did?


No it won't. Value loss occurred prior to the maintenance being necessary plus VW would only buy back if it's not economically feasible to fix (IE they will scrap the cars so lack of maintenance is a non-issue.) Holding off on maintenance is a big gamble though in the case of a timing belt. I doubt VW will reimburse for it either if they do do a buyback as it was maintenance required to continue using the car. However, if they recall emissions equipment, they will generally replace the faulty part and reimburse you for any repairs you already paid for due to the faulty part.

I also wonder if there will be opt out option for a buyback in some less emissions strict states? Technically the EPA can order it but I'm not sure they have the legal power to seize cars if people refuse to give them up, especially not if they didn't do anything wrong and purchased them legally at the time. If the state still allows it to be registered there is nothing stopping someone from keeping their car if they wanted to. They can argue that it doesn't meet emissions standards but how does that hold up in court if they certified that it did at the time.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

JitteryJoe said:


> I also wonder if there will be opt out option for a buyback in some less emissions strict states? Technically the EPA can order it but I'm not sure they have the legal power to seize cars if people refuse to give them up, especially not if they didn't do anything wrong and purchased them legally at the time. If the state still allows it to be registered there is nothing stopping someone from keeping their car if they wanted to. They can argue that it doesn't meet emissions standards but how does that hold up in court if they certified that it did at the time.


The Clean Air Act is federal law, so it applies to everyone. States however are generally left up to themselves to figure out how to be compliant. For example in Arizona, they only smog check vehicles in the general viscinity of Phoenix and Tucson; everybody else gets a free pass because it's the metro areas that have struggled with CAA compliance, not the rural areas. Still, the fact remains that CAA is federal law and that cars, by design, move great distances. A car that today is in rural Oklahoma could be sold to someone else in L.A. who attempts to drive the car there and have it smog checked. If VW simply doesn't even have a way to make the cars emissions legal, it presents a huge problem for letting people buy & sell cars to someone out of state or take a job transfer to a smog controlled area.

This is undoubtedly part of what VW will have to negotiate if they cannot come up with a way to fix the non-SCR cars. If they come up with a fix, then it's easy, you just fix the cars. The problem is if VW doesn't fix them.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> the fact remains that CAA is federal law


That is VW's issue, not the individual TDI owners. The cars were certified and sold, outside of a court ruling or passing of a law to account for instances like this, no one will have to do anything to their TDI unless they live in a state that ties registration to emissions/recall compliance.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

JitteryJoe said:


> No it won't. Value loss occurred prior to the maintenance being necessary plus VW would only buy back if it's not economically feasible to fix (IE they will scrap the cars so lack of maintenance is a non-issue.)


Refusal or failure to maintain can show that you don't care and therefore why should they. It can affect value and how they will respond, not a chance I'd take on top of the risk for failure. This is VW/Audi so its going to look one sided but I'm certain other manufactures do this as well. In the case of the sludge problem 1.8t engines if you do not prove that you put an effort into maintaining the vehicle you will not have it covered and have to pay out of pocket for repairs/replacement. This specific case yes he hit the miles after the day this all fell a part. There are likely people hit the mileage for some sort of maintenance the day before it hit and put it off. I was generically commenting on value of a vehicle that is overdue for service, may play a part here, everyone's pissed VW is playing games so they respond with games? :screwy:

I've also witnessed VW involved buy outs where they did compensate for recent work done to the vehicle. I wouldn't count on it, but also wouldn't laugh it off. 





> I also wonder if there will be opt out option for a buyback in some less emissions strict states? *Technically the EPA can order it* but I'm not sure they have the legal power to seize cars if people refuse to give them up, especially not if they didn't do anything wrong and purchased them legally at the time.


They actually pretty much said they can't and won't make anyone, the FIRST day this was public.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Yes it is federal law but I would imagine it reads something to the effect of "new cars sold in the US must... Blah blah blah" So it's illegal to sell the car but not illegal to be in possession of it. What happened with the big diesel truck case where they did the same thing? Did they even recall and fix those engines or did they just pay a fine and go about their business?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> A car that today is in rural Oklahoma could be sold to someone else in L.A. who attempts to drive the car there and have it smog checked. If VW simply doesn't even have a way to make the cars emissions legal, it presents a huge problem for letting people buy & sell cars to someone out of state or take a job transfer to a smog controlled area.


This is already a thing today, on 100% legal and compliant vehicles. There are years of vehicles that have a California/north east version and rest of country version. 

If you bought the rest of country version in Georgia and moved to California they have denied registration to people for not having their CARB complaint version. This happened to a friend of mine and a motorcycle since they implemented some emissions standards earlier than other parts of the country. So the bike he legally bought new in NJ he could not register in CA, so he had to leave it registered to his Dad back in NJ. When he went to sell it had to go to AZ. 


Yes it will likely complicate things, but it isn't new, there are legal gas engine VWs you would have this problem with today. 

There is a few year block of VW TDIs you could not buy new in California or New York, maybe a few other states. I don't believe someone could go into Nevada buy one new in 2006 and legally go right to registering it in CA.


----------



## RollingInDubs (Jan 23, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> This is already a thing today, on 100% legal and compliant vehicles. There are years of vehicles that have a California/north east version and rest of country version.
> 
> If you bought the rest of country version in Georgia and moved to California they have denied registration to people for not having their CARB complaint version. This happened to a friend of mine and a motorcycle since they implemented some emissions standards earlier than other parts of the country. So the bike he legally bought new in NJ he could not register in CA, so he had to leave it registered to his Dad back in NJ. When he went to sell it had to go to AZ.
> 
> ...


Wait a second, I always assumed that if you transferred from another state...your car was exempted from the stricter CARB requirements of a state like California...because it would be wholly unreasonable for you to have to switch out a car just to to move. 

So you're telling me if my job transfers me to California, I'd have to sell my car and buy a new one because it wasn't purchased there originally?! That sounds wrong, but if true how absolutely absurd and idiotic. :screwy:


----------



## xo_vw (Sep 30, 2009)

RollingInDubs said:


> Wait a second, I always assumed that if you transferred from another state...your car was exempted from the stricter CARB requirements of a state like California...because it would be wholly unreasonable for you to have to switch out a car just to to move.
> 
> So you're telling me if my job transfers me to California, I'd have to sell my car and buy a new one because it wasn't purchased there originally?! That sounds wrong, but if true how absolutely absurd and idiotic. :screwy:


A few cars are exempt, like ones made before 1975, and I think motorcycles are too (not sure why the person above you couldn't bring there's), but in general, yes. Your car needs to comply or you can't bring it. 

I think if your car is CA-complaint a label somewhere with the emissions stuff will say it. I may be wrong but I assumed everyone except some of the cheapos made their cars CA-compliant and sent them all over there country, rather than one specific CA-compliant version and then another one for the other states... So theoretically it shouldn't be a problem for most modern cars.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

No it does NOT prevent you from one state to another with previously registered vehicle

Does This Apply to Someone Moving to California?

If you are moving to California from another state, you may register a new 49-state vehicle if it was first registered by you in your home state, or for military personnel, in the last state of your military service. When applying for vehicle registration in California, you must provide evidence that the vehicle was registered.

1/2 down the page
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/?...ntent_en/dmv/pubs/brochures/fast_facts/ffvr29


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

xo_vw said:


> A few cars are exempt, like ones made before 1975, and I think motorcycles are too (not sure why the person above you couldn't bring there's), but in general, yes. Your car needs to comply or you can't bring it.
> 
> I think if your car is CA-complaint a label somewhere with the emissions stuff will say it. I may be wrong but I assumed everyone except some of the cheapos made their cars CA-compliant and sent them all over there country, rather than one specific CA-compliant version and then another one for the other states... So theoretically it shouldn't be a problem for most modern cars.


it was a long time ago but back in 2008 when I brought a 6 month old Audi into CA they had to smog test it. That was an ass pain because the local smog shops are setup for older cars and nobody had the software for my model year yet.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

xo_vw said:


> I think if your car is CA-complaint a label somewhere with the emissions stuff will say it.


Is it right next to the sticker that says touching the car, looking at the car, or generally being alive near the car has been known to give people cancer?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

xo_vw said:


> I may be wrong but I assumed everyone except some of the cheapos made their cars CA-compliant and sent them all over there country, rather than one specific CA-compliant version and then another one for the other states... So theoretically it shouldn't be a problem for most modern cars.


Definitely not the case. Not sure what engine your former 2009 Jetta had but those years 2.0T engines had two different versions depending on where it was sold. The CARB cars had different 02 sensor setup, secondary air, and different software to control those systems.


As someone else just pointed out it does seem there are provisions for relocating to the state and being able to bring your non compliant vehicle. I believe the issue my friend ran into was that he lived in CA for about 5 years, moved back home for about 2 years and then moved back so there was a questionable residency scenario.

There also seems to be provisions for buying a used vehicle out of state if it was previously registered to someone else and over X miles. There even looks to be a provision that if you totaled your compliant vehicle on a trip out of state, accidentally bought a non compliant version of the same car while on that trip out of state that it would be exempt.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> Is it right next to the sticker that says touching the car, looking at the car, or generally being alive near the car has been known to give people cancer?


Shhh this is only know to the state of California, stop telling all their secrets!


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

grounded87 said:


> Is anyone else holding off on any mods/maintenance in waiting for clarification in what they are actually going to do?


My oil change is scheduled for Feb 1, paid for with my VW credit/Goodwill card. If I had a big time maintenance operation that needed to be preformed...I may hold off a month or two. I can't imagine this 'time buying' lasts too much longer.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> No it does NOT prevent you from one state to another with previously registered vehicle
> 
> Does This Apply to Someone Moving to California?
> 
> If you are moving to California from another state, you may register a new 49-state vehicle if it was first registered by you in your home state ...


That regulation uses the assumption that the vehicle was legal in the other 49 states to begin with. The whole issue here is that ALL TDIs are illegal, not just the California ones. If all VW did was make cars pass CAA (federal) standards but fail CA (state) emissions, then perhaps this would be a different story. The issue is that every single car in all 50 states is illegal to begin with. California's exemption for out of state cars was based on those out of state cars being federally legal under the Clean Air Act, which 09+ TDIs are not.


----------



## Ark6 (Dec 14, 2007)

RollingInDubs said:


> Wait a second, I always assumed that if you transferred from another state...your car was exempted from the stricter CARB requirements of a state like California...because it would be wholly unreasonable for you to have to switch out a car just to to move.
> 
> So you're telling me if my job transfers me to California, I'd have to sell my car and buy a new one because it wasn't purchased there originally?! That sounds wrong, but if true how absolutely absurd and idiotic. :screwy:


My S2000 was originally in Texas. I had no problems getting it registered in CA. 
However you do have to pay a rather massive use tax to do so.


----------



## xo_vw (Sep 30, 2009)

chris86vw said:


> Definitely not the case. Not sure what engine your former 2009 Jetta had but those years 2.0T engines had two different versions depending on where it was sold. The CARB cars had different 02 sensor setup, secondary air, and different software to control those systems.
> 
> 
> As someone else just pointed out it does seem there are provisions for relocating to the state and being able to bring your non compliant vehicle. I believe the issue my friend ran into was that he lived in CA for about 5 years, moved back home for about 2 years and then moved back so there was a questionable residency scenario.
> ...


Ha not surprised at VW. I had the 2.5. I believe that Toyota currently has the majority of their cars, if not all of them, 50 state compliant (build a car and almost all will say "50 state emissions" under the option list).

For example, here is an (older) sticker that says the car conforms to California emissions: 










Versus non-California:












Silly_me said:


> Is it right next to the sticker that says touching the car, looking at the car, or generally being alive near the car has been known to give people cancer?


:laugh:


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> That regulation uses the assumption that the vehicle was legal in the other 49 states to begin with. The whole issue here is that ALL TDIs are illegal, not just the California ones. If all VW did was make cars pass CAA (federal) standards but fail CA (state) emissions, then perhaps this would be a different story. The issue is that every single car in all 50 states is illegal to begin with. California's exemption for out of state cars was based on those out of state cars being federally legal under the Clean Air Act, which 09+ TDIs are not.


It states registered, which the previous state would have completed and you would have proof. At the time of sale, was "legal"


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

xo_vw said:


> Ha not surprised at VW. I had the 2.5. I believe that Toyota currently has the majority of their cars, if not all of them, 50 state compliant (build a car and almost all will say "50 state emissions" under the option list).


Well it comes in waves, I can't think of off the top of my head any non 50 state legal gas VWs pre 2008, there might be just blanking on software IDs that would be. But then when the new EA888 2.0t came out both VW and Audi had CARB and not CARB versions of the transverse cars. 

The current VWs are 50 state too like toyota but there hasn't been a major change that popped up in the middle of engine development, 2008 I believe happened to be one of those years that CARB got strict before the federal standard. (when I was looking up the registration stuff I kept seeing 2008)

If you are trying to stay under a key price point like be able to market 19,999 not adding 1000 bucks of equipment unnecessarily to every car makes sense. This is why it may be more obvious on cheaper cars, not because they are cheaper necessarily.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

As some are mentioning getting great deals on GTI's, I thought I would take the opportunity to look at getting out of my TDI lease and into a GTI PP. 1 dealer learned of my lease trade in and has not responded and another dealer told me it would be best hang onto my lease for now. -the value has significantly dropped. (he politely told me he didn't want the car) He wouldn't even talk numbers.

Based on my observation, I think its safe to say that those of us in affected TDI's might as well sit tight and hope VW does a buyback.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

aj4066 said:


> As some are mentioning getting great deals on GTI's, I thought I would take the opportunity to look at getting out of my TDI lease and into a GTI PP. 1 dealer learned of my lease trade in and has not responded and another dealer told me it would be best hang onto my lease for now. -the value has significantly dropped. (he politely told me he didn't want the car) He wouldn't even talk numbers.
> 
> Based on my observation, I think its safe to say that those of us in affected TDI's might as well sit tight and hope VW does a buyback.


But that depends. What* kind *of buyback? Giving me market value for the car puts me back into another car payment, and I wasn't planning on that when I bought the TDI's as I expected them to last for at least 15 years each. (Yes, I have a history of keeping cars that long, my truck was bought new 23 1/2 years ago; it's running fine, and the last car I sold before I got the latest TDI was 14 years old) So I wasn't expecting a car payment on my wife's car for another 8 years.

So if they give me the keys to a new, certified TDI or fix my current ones, I'm happy.

If they give me only market value for the '09, that forces me into a car payment and my wife will be very upset. (She really likes her Jetta)

Likewise, if my '15 Golf has to be returned I suppose I'd go over to a Ram Ecodiesel, but I'm still out of pocket some major cash that I wasn't expecting to spend just now.

Aargh.

Must. Cinch. Seatbelt. Tighter.


----------



## grounded87 (Nov 5, 2002)

The owners who have the most potential to be in bad shape in this interim? 

People who crashed their cars after dieselgate broke. 

All the naysayers here say calm down... don't sell your car... etc. But what if somebody rear ends you and your car is totalled? 

The insurance adjuster whips out the old KBB or whatever book, and sees the laughably low reduced value, and that's what you get. It's not like you can just wait this out, if you find yourself staring at a smashed car. 










Drive safely my friends.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Worst kind of crash; hitting the front of your car and then getting hit in the rear from the insurance company. 



grounded87 said:


> The owners who have the most potential to be in bad shape in this interim?
> 
> People who crashed their cars after dieselgate broke.
> 
> ...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

grounded87 said:


> The owners who have the most potential to be in bad shape in this interim?
> 
> People who crashed their cars after dieselgate broke.
> 
> ...


The people who are suing for diminished value are aiming for a settlement over diminished value. That dollar figure doesn't change if the car is running or totaled. If the fleet of TDI's have lost, say, 10% of their value due to this scandal, then people are seeking to get 10% of the value prior to September 2015. Let's say the car had a value of $18,374 in August 2015. That means they are seeking $1837. For somebody with an older one that was worth $9237 in August 2015, they would be seeking $924. Now I can't say this is how it's worded in any of the 500 lawsuits, but generally that's the principle behind diminished value payments. It doesn't matter if you still have the car or not, only that you owned it the day before and day after the scandal broke and can point at a NADA or KBB guide or whatever for what its value was the day (or month) before the scandal broke.


----------



## IronJoe (Dec 23, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> The people who are suing for diminished value are aiming for a settlement over diminished value. That dollar figure doesn't change if the car is running or totaled. If the fleet of TDI's have lost, say, 10% of their value due to this scandal, then people are seeking to get 10% of the value prior to September 2015. Let's say the car had a value of $18,374 in August 2015. That means they are seeking $1837. For somebody with an older one that was worth $9237 in August 2015, they would be seeking $924. Now I can't say this is how it's worded in any of the 500 lawsuits, but generally that's the principle behind diminished value payments. It doesn't matter if you still have the car or not, only that you owned it the day before and day after the scandal broke and can point at a NADA or KBB guide or whatever for what its value was the day (or month) before the scandal broke.


I know it's just an example, but my car's value has dropped a fair bit more than 10%. I know because I listed it for sale in August and printed out an online value guide at that time to show buyers. Fast forward to today, and the exact same car with the exact same options with ~2000 more miles is now worth ~$3000 less using the same online valuation tools. :banghead::banghead::banghead:


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

grounded87 said:


> Drive safely my friends.


Tell that to the other guy who's texting and driving.

That's my nightmare scenario.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

IronJoe said:


> I know it's just an example, but my car's value has dropped a fair bit more than 10%. I know because I listed it for sale in August and printed out an online value guide at that time to show buyers. Fast forward to today, and the exact same car with the exact same options with ~2000 more miles is now worth ~$3000 less using the same online valuation tools. :banghead::banghead::banghead:


+1

I keep tracking the KBB value of my Mk6 Golf TDI (got rid of it last October). Overall drop after the news late September is about 25%


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

grounded87 said:


> Is anyone else holding off on any mods/maintenance in waiting for clarification in what they are actually going to do?
> 
> My '11 Golf TDI has ~117K on it, and is fast approaching the 120K timing belt service interval. If there's any chance of a buyback, I will take that option. I'd rather not dump the money into the TB/pump/etc. only to have them announce a buyback a few weeks later. Conversely, if this is going to drag out for another 6 months... at my current ~35K/year, I'm going to be at 120K next month.
> 
> ...


This will not end soon
Do the service
JMHO


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

cpermd said:


> This will not end soon
> Do the service
> JMHO


x2. I have a feeling people are going to be waiting a bit longer than the had hoped.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> But that depends. What* kind *of buyback? Giving me market value for the car puts me back into another car payment, and I wasn't planning on that when I bought the TDI's as I expected them to last for at least 15 years each. (Yes, I have a history of keeping cars that long, my truck was bought new 23 1/2 years ago; it's running fine, and the last car I sold before I got the latest TDI was 14 years old) So I wasn't expecting a car payment on my wife's car for another 8 years.
> 
> So if they give me the keys to a new, certified TDI or fix my current ones, I'm happy.
> 
> ...


If you have an 09 that you had planned to keep for 15 years I see you being in one of the least affected groups. No reason to worry about it right now. Car works fine, no VW plan (fix or buyback) has been approved, once it is you will have lot of time to figure out what to do next. Possible you won't have to get it fixed, you will have years to get it fixed, fix will be mild, or they have a decent buyback.

I think the idea of them buying it back for what you paid for it years ago isn't going to happen as this doesn't seem to be fair to them either. At best take the value when scandal broke or from when scandal broke plus some additional depreciation for the amount of time it took to get resolved.




PnZrFsT said:


> x2. I have a feeling people are going to be waiting a bit longer than the had hoped.


X2. If the buyback happens for some cars or there is a reduced value settlement my guess is you will be lucky to see the check in 2016. It took how many years for the BP oil spill final payments to the restaurants/fisherman that were affected to go out?

Aren't we almost 5 months into this with virtually nothing changed besides the Visa payout?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW refuses to offer emissions scandal compensation in Europe*



> BRUSSELS (Reuters) -- Volkswagen said there were no grounds to replicate in Europe a compensation program it plans for U.S. drivers affected by its diesel emissions scandal, rejecting a demand from the European Union's industry commissioner.
> 
> VW said it was paying compensation in North America because it had yet to agree with local regulators how to fix affected vehicles, and so customers there would have to wait longer for a solution than elsewhere.
> 
> ...


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

spockcat said:


> *VW refuses to offer emissions scandal compensation in Europe*


I saw this last night.....I guess they figure the litigation costs will be less than a straight payout?


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

aj4066 said:


> So whats new in the VW scandal?
> 
> Check out what these fine Americans did. They got ticked off for what VW did and decided to stop driving their diesel VW, and bought an EV to 'not harm the environment'. Then, they hopped in their toxic polluting car and drove it half way across the country to protest. Yep. They drove from Boulder, CO to Detroit to get attention, then are moving along to Richmond, VA to protest and return their car to VW. The amount of hilarity in this is staggering. (get my sarcasm?)
> 
> ...


Well, an update has happened. It turns out they made their adventure from CO to VA a little longer than anticipated, according tot the Desert Sun. They literally zig-zagged the eastern part of the US in route to VA. :laugh: Boulder > Austin > New Orleans > Chicago >Detroit > New York > VW HQ in VA

When arriving at VW in VA ,they met a couple of reps, and handed them a petition of 20,000 signatures that demanded VW buy back the toxic vehicles.They then told VW that they were buying their car back on site, which VW said no. They then left the key on the doorstep of the VW HQ and left the car in the parking lot and left. 

VW then called the people and said come get your frickin car or we will have it towed and you will pay the damn bill. The owners bowed down and picked the car up. 

The VW owners, still not wanting to drive their car home, after ping-ponging it across the eastern part of the US and polluting along the way, decided to park their car on a random street in VA, giving the key to a friend. They then hopped a train out of NY and headed home with their heads down in complete defeat. 

http://www.desertsun.com/story/news...couple-unable-return-car-vw-offices/79142180/

You can follow their website at http://whatnextvw.org or follow them on Twitter @whatnextvw where they now have 26 followers. (but delivered 20,000 signatures) 

:facepalm:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

You'reDrunk said:


> I saw this last night.....I guess they figure the litigation costs will be less than a straight payout?


Well VW has a good point: they moved quickly in Europe to get their recall approved and sure enough, as of December last year VW had already gotten the recall approved for all 11 million TDIs in Europe. Part of it was due to the fact Europe allows about 3x as much NOx per kilometer as the US and part of it is that the did the certification in Germany. Per EU rules, once one country says its good, the entire EU is required to accept the fix too. It's no surprise that Germany declared that an ECU fix is all that was needed on nearly all of them, plus a mesh in front of the MAF on the 1.6 model. That was the easiest way for them to simply make the problem go away, thus it is "fixed" in Europe and nobody is owed anything.



aj4066 said:


> When arriving at VW in VA ,they met a couple of reps, and handed them the petition. They then told VW that they were buying their car back, which VW said no. They then left the key on the doorstep of the VW HQ and left the car in the parking lot and left.
> 
> VW then called the people and said come get your frickin car or we will have it towed and you will pay the damn bill. The owners bowed down and picked the car up.
> 
> The VW owners, still not wanting to drive their car home, after ping-ponging it across the eastern part of the US and polluting along the way, decided to park their car on a random street in VA, giving the key to a friend. They then hopped a train out of NY and headed home with their heads down in complete defeat.


This was expected. I'm still astonished that people a few pages back were calling for this couple to be arrested as criminals. Obviously this was no big deal. They made their appearance, got on camera, then eventually took their car off VW property and went home. On the one hand, good for them! They made a statement, made the news, and in at least some ways got what they came for. On the other hand, it's a little bit crazy to think that this would have ended any other way. The only way it could have gone differently would be if VW was less kind and simply had the car towed from their lot and sent to an impound lot somewhere. I'm guessing they delayed doing that because VW didn't want to look like the bad guys here.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

You'reDrunk said:


> I saw this last night.....I guess they figure the litigation costs will be less than a straight payout?


The legal environment in Europe is nothing like what it is in USA. I doubt if very many people would even consider filing lawsuits there; it's pointless. And there's no need, since the cars can readily be made legal in Europe.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> Well VW has a good point: they moved quickly in Europe to get their recall approved and sure enough, as of December last year VW had already gotten the recall approved for all 11 million TDIs in Europe. Part of it was due to the fact Europe allows about 3x as much NOx per kilometer as the US and part of it is that the did the certification in Germany. Per EU rules, once one country says its good, the entire EU is required to accept the fix too. It's no surprise that Germany declared that an ECU fix is all that was needed on nearly all of them, plus a mesh in front of the MAF on the 1.6 model. That was the easiest way for them to simply make the problem go away, thus it is "fixed" in Europe and nobody is owed anything.


I agree with this, if they fix the European cars to meet the regulations and do it quickly and without downsides to the owner (loss of mpg or performance) isn't the owner getting exactly what they paid for but with a recall that has been taken care of?



AZGolf said:


> This was expected. I'm still astonished that people a few pages back were calling for this couple to be arrested as criminals. Obviously this was no big deal. They made their appearance, got on camera, then eventually took their car off VW property and went home. On the one hand, good for them! They made a statement, made the news, and in at least some ways got what they came for. On the other hand, it's a little bit crazy to think that this would have ended any other way. The only way it could have gone differently would be if VW was less kind and simply had the car towed from their lot and sent to an impound lot somewhere. I'm guessing they delayed doing that because VW didn't want to look like the bad guys here.


Not sure I agree with what they did. So they drove their polluting car all over the U.S., well past the point they needed to go to make a point (essentially a driving vacation), get signatures, demand compensation and then ultimately give the car away and take the train home. Assuming now out buying another car with their VW being driven by someone else?

Based on giving the car away I am assuming the compensation really didn't matter much to them (and question how serious they really were), and also don't see what they did was helping the environment or moving the solution along. I guess they made their vacation more interesting....


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

aj4066 said:


> Well, an update has happened. It turns out they made their adventure from CO to VA a little longer than anticipated, according tot the Desert Sun. They literally zig-zagged the eastern part of the US in route to VA. :laugh: Boulder > Austin > New Orleans > Chicago >Detroit > New York > VW HQ in VA
> 
> When arriving at VW in VA ,they met a couple of reps, and handed them a petition of 20,000 signatures that demanded VW buy back the toxic vehicles.They then told VW that they were buying their car back on site, which VW said no. They then left the key on the doorstep of the VW HQ and left the car in the parking lot and left.
> 
> ...


I feel like this story needs a #notmillennials tag. Kind of like #notFlorida, but for dumb, narcissistic ****.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

dmorrow said:


> Not sure I agree with what they did. So they drove their polluting car all over the U.S., well past the point they needed to go to make a point (essentially a driving vacation), get signatures, demand compensation and then ultimately give the car away and take the train home. Assuming now out buying another car with their VW being driven by someone else?
> 
> Based on giving the car away I am assuming the compensation really didn't matter much to them (and question how serious they really were), and also don't see what they did was helping the environment or moving the solution along. I guess they made their vacation more interesting....


I agree. I'm also curious as to where they came up with 20,000 signatures. Did they stand outside of a coffee house asking people to sign the petition and 'stick it to the man'?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW probe shows many bosses knew of 'defeat devices' as far back as 2006, report says*



> FRANKFURT (Reuters) -- Volkswagen's development of software to cheat diesel-emissions tests was an open secret in the company department striving to make its engines meet environmental standards, Germany's Sueddeutsche Zeitung newspaper said today, citing results from VW's internal investigation.
> 
> Many managers and staff dealing with emissions problems in the engine-development department knew of or were involved in developing the "defeat devices", said the newspaper, which researched the matter with regional broadcasters NDR and WDR.
> 
> ...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> I agree. I'm also curious as to where they came up with 20,000 signatures. Did they stand outside of a coffee house asking people to sign the petition and 'stick it to the man'?


I doubt any such thing is real. Online petitions get the most signatures since it's so easy to just type in a name and hit submit. A search for them turns up few that have found any success:

Petitions against VW, by organizer:

D.J. Shirley: 16 supporters
John Crump: 53 supporters
Thia Buggia: 183 supporters

Searching for the two people who drove across the country, all I could find was the linkedin page for Marcus Moench. The guy is a life-long activist who and founded/runs his own non-profit activist organization. The way a lot of those organizations work is by manipulating the media and just outright lying in order to bully/shame companies into doing what they want.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

dmorrow said:


> If you have an 09 that you had planned to keep for 15 years I see you being in one of the least affected groups. No reason to worry about it right now. Car works fine, no VW plan (fix or buyback) has been approved, once it is you will have lot of time to figure out what to do next. Possible you won't have to get it fixed, you will have years to get it fixed, fix will be mild, or they have a decent buyback.
> 
> I think the idea of them buying it back for what you paid for it years ago isn't going to happen as this doesn't seem to be fair to them either. At best take the value when scandal broke or from when scandal broke plus some additional depreciation for the amount of time it took to get resolved.


The only problem is California CARB is pushing for VW for a rapid solution. CARB rejected VW's original plan, so they're back at square one. CA may force VW to do the buybacks, at which point I wouldn't be able to register my car any more.

But as you say, we'll have to wait and see if that is the way it will be addressed.

Gaah.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

So evidently, the cheat was an 'open secret' for quite some time. :facepalm:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-investigation-idUSKCN0V02E7

This just keeps going south for VW...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> So evidently, the cheat was an 'open secret' for quite some time. :facepalm:
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-investigation-idUSKCN0V02E7
> 
> This just keeps going south for VW...


Hasn't Bosch already claimed that they developed it and told VW not to use it?

If Bosch says they developed it how were VW engine engineers involved in developing it? (yes they work together at times)

They very well might have known, not disputing that, but Reuters reporting on the topic seems to require you take it with a box of salt packets.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

T5 Dave said:


> The only problem is California CARB is pushing for VW for a rapid solution. CARB rejected VW's original plan, so they're back at square one. CA may force VW to do the buybacks, at which point I wouldn't be able to register my car any more.
> 
> But as you say, we'll have to wait and see if that is the way it will be addressed.
> 
> Gaah.


I am sure VW would attempt to fight a buy-back if CARB or the state of CA forced one which would just drag out the actual process. 

We are approaching 130 days since the scandal broke. I think a lot of people are kind of crazy to expect a full plan to get these cars into compliance. People were practically demanding a fix a month later. It makes sense that VW addressed the European issue before the US considering the EU has less stringent regulations and there were a much greater number of cars to fix.

It took 87 days to cap one well and over 130 days for it to be officially sealed. How quickly do people realistically think VW can come up with a plan to fix 500k cars ontop of the 11? million in the EU. Not only do they need to test the proposed fixes to make sure they actually work, they need to get the plans approved and then figure out the logistics of a part supply (if necessary) and to get these cars in.

Its just a wait and see game. People panicking or over reacting to the timeline are :screwy:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

noatonement said:


> I am sure VW would attempt to fight a buy-back if CARB or the state of CA forced one which would just drag out the actual process.
> 
> We are approaching 130 days since the scandal broke. I think a lot of people are kind of crazy to expect a full plan to get these cars into compliance. People were practically demanding a fix a month later. It makes sense that VW addressed the European issue before the US considering the EU has less stringent regulations and there were a much greater number of cars to fix.
> 
> ...


They knew internally this was happening long before the public knew. -it was brought to them in 2014...


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

noatonement said:


> I am sure VW would attempt to fight a buy-back if CARB or the state of CA forced one which would just drag out the actual process.
> 
> We are approaching 130 days since the scandal broke. I think a lot of people are kind of crazy to expect a full plan to get these cars into compliance. People were practically demanding a fix a month later. It makes sense that VW addressed the European issue before the US considering the EU has less stringent regulations and there were a much greater number of cars to fix.
> 
> ...


If they decide to fix the cars (say by adding DEF injection to those that didn't have it) it would take about 3 to 4 years to design, build the prototype, test, go into production, and retrofit all the cars. Look how long it'll take to do a complete Takata airbag recall. CARB may not want to wait that long and force a buyback. (Oh, and the manufacturing of all those new parts will most likely spew more pollution into the air than if they'd left everything alone)

I'm assuming the cars that have DEF injection just need a recalibration on the firmware to use more, but we're talking CARB here, so logic may not have anything to do with it.

I like Musk's plan http://www.takepart.com/open-letter-to-california-air-resources-board-chairman-mary-nichols because that has the least impact on the buyers.

We'll have to wait and see.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

aj4066 said:


> They knew internally this was happening long before the public knew. -it was brought to them in 2014...



And they could have been doing 1 of 2 things: 1) Pray nothing else comes out of it and they dont need to do anything or 2) Actively work on a fix/solution. I think we can all agree it was box number 1 and now they are either trying to fix it or figuring out the best way to handle it.




T5 Dave said:


> If they decide to fix the cars (say by adding DEF injection to those that didn't have it) it would take about 3 to 4 years to design, build the prototype, test, go into production, and retrofit all the cars. Look how long it'll take to do a complete Takata airbag recall. CARB may not want to wait that long and force a buyback. (Oh, and the manufacturing of all those new parts will most likely spew more pollution into the air than if they'd left everything alone)
> 
> I'm assuming the cars that have DEF injection just need a recalibration on the firmware to use more, but we're talking CARB here, so logic may not have anything to do with it.
> 
> ...


Honestly I think Musk's plan is the most logical when you factor in everything but I'm sure there are decision makers in CARB and maybe even the EPA that would much rather do as much damage possible to a big corporate giant than do the most good possible (ie requiring VW to roll out EVs quicker, forcing them to upgrade higher emission industries etc).

VW will get punished, as they should, but if the CARB/EPA are all about improving the environment they should figure out a solution that will have the greatest positive impact on the environment. Whether thats fixing the 500k TDIs or something else.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

I should have made these months ago.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

T5 Dave said:


> Look how long it'll take to do a complete Takata airbag recall. CARB may not want to wait that long and force a buyback.





noatonement said:


> I'm sure there are decision makers in CARB and maybe even the EPA that would much rather do as much damage possible to a big corporate giant


Takata has claimed 8 lives in the U.S and fined a paltry $200m, yet everyone wants VW's head on a platter and their entrails used to lubricate a political slip and slide :laugh:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

noatonement said:


> VW will get punished, as they should, but if the CARB/EPA are all about improving the environment they should figure out a solution that will have the greatest positive impact on the environment. Whether thats fixing the 500k TDIs or something else.


you do realize you are talking about the American Gov't....big, slow, wasteful, and completely illogical.

not. going. to. happen.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

aj4066 said:


> So evidently, the cheat was an 'open secret' for quite some time. :facepalm:
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-investigation-idUSKCN0V02E7


You know something? I am amazed at how much of this I have called. I expected to be about 50% right, but at this point, I'm batting 1.000. 

Also, I recall that they were working on it, I just didn't know that's what they were working on. I thought they were working on NOx for regular NOx issue purposes. But in context, they might have been trying to solve this issue. What I can tell you is that moving the intercooler wasn't going to solve anything. Catalysis was the only answer. They knew that.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

You'reDrunk said:


> you do realize you are talking about the American Gov't....big, slow, wasteful, and completely illogical.
> 
> not. going. to. happen.


^^^This x10000000000000


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

dubdaze68 said:


> How can you lemon law a fully functioning vehicle with no service problems? The reason the dealer refused to look at it was, there is NO FIX YET.


Well, it is not a fully functioning vehicle. It generates up to 40x the amount of NOx permitted by law.

The dealership is unable to fix it. This is not the fault of the dealership, but it is still a fact.

The car has lost value. That is on point, as someone else pointed out.

Ergo, a successful application of the Lemon Law in FL.


----------



## turbocharged798 (Apr 13, 2010)

biturbowagon said:


> *Well, it is not a fully functioning vehicle.* It generates up to 40x the amount of NOx permitted by law.
> 
> The dealership is unable to fix it. This is not the fault of the dealership, but it is still a fact.
> 
> ...


:screwy: How is it not a functional vehicle? Its runs and drives therefore is a functional vehicle. Seriously what you are saying makes no sense what so ever.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

biturbowagon said:


> Well, it is not a fully functioning vehicle. It generates up to 40x the amount of NOx permitted by law.


This is only a problem for the end user in the end user's imagination. It is a problem for the regulatory authorities, but not the end user.

EPA and CARB themselves have stated that the cars may continue to be driven.

The FL case was a misapplication of the lemon law.


----------



## xo_vw (Sep 30, 2009)

turbocharged798 said:


> :screwy: How is it not a functional vehicle? Its runs and drives therefore is a functional vehicle. Seriously what you are saying makes no sense what so ever.


I think biturbo is trying to say that it doesn't function to specifications (specifications regarding emissions)...


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

xo_vw said:


> I think biturbo is trying to say that it doesn't function to specifications (specifications regarding emissions)...


Bingo. :thumbup:

An analogy: Flint, Michigan's drinking water system is "fully functioning": turn on your water spigot, and water comes out. Never mind the lead and other contaminants….


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

biturbowagon said:


> An analogy: Flint, Michigan's drinking water system is "fully functioning": turn on your water spigot, and water comes out. Never mind the lead and other contaminants….


I'll make you a deal, you drink Flint's water for a month, I'll breath in air next to a TDI for month. Winner gets to come up with the next best analogy!


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

Silly_me said:


> I'll make you a deal, you drink Flint's water for a month, I'll breath in air next to a TDI for month. Winner gets to come up with the next best analogy!


You're living up to your name.


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

Here's an article about another lemon law win, this one in California, "Team 10: Drivers fight back against Volkswagen": 

http://www.10news.com/news/team-10-drivers-fight-back-against-volkswagen

"SAN DIEGO -- Drivers are finding new ways to fight back against Volkswagen after the carmaker was caught rigging emissions tests.

"In Florida, 86-year-old Walter Melnyk filed a Lemon Law claim for his vehicle affected by the cheating scandal. Melnyk won against Volkswagen’s big time lawyers. The Lemon Law board ordered the carmaker to take his car back and give him $15,000."


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

biturbowagon said:


> Here's an article about another lemon law win, this one in California, "Team 10: Drivers fight back against Volkswagen":


Pro tip: Might want to read the article from google search before you post it.......



Cali news channel said:


> California does not have a Lemon Law board, but Hal Rosner with San Diego’s Auto Fraud Legal Center says local drivers can still fight Volkswagen without stepping inside a courtroom.
> 
> “They can use the Lemon Law by filing an arbitration claim,” Rosner said.
> 
> Rosner said Californians can file that claim with the Better Business Bureau. Arbitration allows a third neutral party to make a decision. In California in 2015, less than 500 cases were decided this way, according to BBB statistics.


Have fun :laugh:



biturbowagon said:


> http://www.10news.com/news/team-10-drivers-fight-back-against-volkswagen
> 
> "SAN DIEGO -- Drivers are finding new ways to fight back against Volkswagen after the carmaker was caught rigging emissions tests.
> 
> "In Florida, 86-year-old Walter Melnyk filed a Lemon Law claim for his vehicle affected by the cheating scandal. Melnyk won against Volkswagen’s big time lawyers. The Lemon Law board ordered the carmaker to take his car back and give him $15,000."


That's the FLA story. Still.


----------



## VapedTalon (Jan 17, 2008)

biturbowagon said:


> Bingo. :thumbup:
> 
> An analogy: Flint, Michigan's drinking water system is "fully functioning": turn on your water spigot, and water comes out. Never mind the lead and other contaminants….


A closer analogy would be if Flint, Michigan's water supply had 20X as much iron in it then normal. It would taste bad, but would be completely drinkable without any ill effects if balanced with a proper diet.

If you wanted a TDI to be like Flint, Michigan's water supply then you would have to cut a hole in the firewall and run the exhaust directly into the cabin. It still runs and drives, but if you don't roll down the windows it would kill you...


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

You're right, I didn't read the article closely enough. I skimmed it. I looked at "San Diego," and figured that "Florida" was a town (there are two Floridas in NY, and one Florida, MA, for starters).

Oh, well, at least Floridians have made some progress.

As for Flint, a better analogy is that the state be forced to rebuild Flint's municipal water supply infrastructure. That better correlates with VW having to rebuild the exhaust systems of the affected cars (if those end up being the solutions for the respective problems). 

Of course, the analogy isn't perfect. After all, VW defrauded the U.S. and state governments, the dealers, and the customers, with the built-in emissions defeat device, that causes the car's exhaust to pollute the air that we breathe and that contributes to global warming. Flint's municipal water system wasn't built fraudulently (at least AFAIK); instead, it was ruined by state politicians and bureaucrats who tried to save a few bucks at the expense of the lives, health, and well being of the citizens. 

But they both permit pollutants that are way beyond mandated levels to get through to the environment and to people.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

I'm learning about analogies now. This is hard, when's finger-painting start back up?


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> I'm learning about analogies now. This is hard, when's finger-painting start back up?


No, we don't have that. We just have eating paint chips.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

atomicalex said:


> No, we don't have that. We just have eating paint chips.


But only from houses built before 1978.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW CEO calls for new emissions tests*



> FRANKFURT (Bloomberg) -- Volkswagen Group CEO Matthias Mueller called for emissions tests in Europe to be reworked to close the gap between laboratory and real-world results, an issue brought to public attention by the German car manufacturer's cheating scandal.
> 
> The automaker admitted in September to rigging 11 million vehicles worldwide so that they could pass official tests while emitting illegal amounts of pollution on the roads.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW given deadline to come clean by No. 2 shareholder*



> FRANKFURT (Bloomberg) -- Volkswagen Group has been given three months by the prime minister of Lower Saxony, the carmaker's second-biggest shareholder, to provide a full account of the roots of the diesel-emissions scandal.
> 
> "There is a very legitimate concern on the part of U.S. authorities, the public and the company itself for a comprehensive investigation," Stephan Weil, Lower Saxony's prime minister and a Volkswagen supervisory board member, said in an interview. "It's in the interest of VW to provide a complete clarification."
> 
> ...


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

> the prime minister of Lower Saxony, the carmaker's second-biggest shareholder


does anyone else get bothered by **** like this?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

GoHomeBroke said:


> does anyone else get bothered by **** like this?


Zay haf us by zee kurt und curlies


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

GoHomeBroke said:


> does anyone else get bothered by **** like this?


To be clear, Lower Saxony is the shareholder, not the Prime Minister.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> The only problem is California CARB is pushing for VW for a rapid solution. CARB rejected VW's original plan, so they're back at square one. CA may force VW to do the buybacks, at which point I wouldn't be able to register my car any more.
> 
> But as you say, we'll have to wait and see if that is the way it will be addressed.
> 
> Gaah.


CARB is pushing for a rapid solution that completely gets rid of the problem in a timely manner and doesn't care about the cost. Their goals may be much different than VW's and as we have seen many times before, government agencies having goals for rapid solutions often doesn't go as they planned.



noatonement said:


> Honestly I think Musk's plan is the most logical when you factor in everything but I'm sure there are decision makers in CARB and maybe even the EPA that would much rather do as much damage possible to a big corporate giant than do the most good possible (ie requiring VW to roll out EVs quicker, forcing them to upgrade higher emission industries etc).
> 
> VW will get punished, as they should, but if the CARB/EPA are all about improving the environment they should figure out a solution that will have the greatest positive impact on the environment. Whether thats fixing the 500k TDIs or something else.


VW needs to prove, with independent oversight that these cars can't be fixed for a reasonable amount of money. Seems like some are ready to bail on a fix when best I can tell this hasn't been proven yet. The "impossible to fix" is based on what, VW not having an acceptable plan?



GoHomeBroke said:


> does anyone else get bothered by **** like this?


No, if a German state wants to be a large part of the ownership of a German company and it follows the German laws I don't believe it affects me or I should be involved.

How many companies based in China are at least partially owned by the government?


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

GoHomeBroke said:


> does anyone else get bothered by **** like this?


Yes, as much as seeing the Packer's owners in the stands at every home game. 



opcorn:


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

biturbowagon said:


> Here's an article about another lemon law win, this one in California, "Team 10: Drivers fight back against Volkswagen":
> 
> http://www.10news.com/news/team-10-drivers-fight-back-against-volkswagen
> 
> ...


I tried to find the details on this and couldn't as I don't understand some of this - 

Aren't Lemon Laws normally dealing with new or close to new cars? If so, why was he ok getting $15,000 on a nearly new VW diesel? Would assume this car would have to be a couple of years old to be only worth $15k and I can't imagine this 86 year old FL driver is putting huge miles on his car (quickly reducing the value).


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

dmorrow said:


> VW needs to prove, with independent oversight that these cars can't be fixed for a reasonable amount of money. Seems like some are ready to bail on a fix when best I can tell this hasn't been proven yet. The "impossible to fix" is based on what, VW not having an acceptable plan?



I dont think anyone is saying the fix is impossible, the point was that, go ahead and fine VW whatever amount they deem necessary but when concerning the fix for the TDIs, if the fix would cost $1 billion and would take 1-2 years to complete, maybe that $1 billion could be applied elsewhere that would have a greater net positive impact on the environment than fixing the current crop of cars.


CARB and the EPA are suppose to be in the business of environmental regulations and improving our environment as a whole, not in the business of corporate take downs. So if the money and resources required to complete the fix could be applied elsewhere that would better impact the environment positively, that's how it should be approached. That's just concerning the fix, not any fines or lawsuits that are pending.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

noatonement said:


> I dont think anyone is saying the fix is impossible, the point was that, go ahead and fine VW whatever amount they deem necessary but when concerning the fix for the TDIs, if the fix would cost $1 billion and would take 1-2 years to complete, maybe that $1 billion could be applied elsewhere that would have a greater net positive impact on the environment than fixing the current crop of cars.
> 
> 
> CARB and the EPA are suppose to be in the business of environmental regulations and improving our environment as a whole, not in the business of corporate take downs. So if the money and resources required to complete the fix could be applied elsewhere that would better impact the environment positively, that's how it should be approached. That's just concerning the fix, not any fines or lawsuits that are pending.


I understand what you are saying (and possibly agree) I just haven't seen any proof or numbers that say fixing the cars is unrealistic or not cost effective. If it even comes close to being cost effective then I believe they should fix the problem and clean up their mess. Them showing a plan that isn't acceptable to CARB isn't really proof of anything as it is only the CARB vehicles (California and a few other states that follow CARB) and I don't know what they proposed or what needs to be done for the rest of the cars in the U.S.

$1 billion/500,000 cars = $2,000 per car, although realistically the number of affected cars is shrinking by some small amount every month through normal crashes.

I also don't know if putting $2,000 towards reducing the pollution coming out of each car is better or worse than putting towards something else. Then if you put this money towards something that was going to be done anyway it isn't helping the overall pollution.


----------



## Jettavr666 (Dec 5, 2000)

spockcat said:


> *VW CEO calls for new emissions tests*


So I probably missed it, but what is the fix going to be for the EU models?


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

PlatinumGLS said:


> To be clear, Lower Saxony is the shareholder, not the Prime Minister.


that makes it much better than how it was worded in the article. :beer:


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Jettavr666 said:


> So I probably missed it, but what is the fix going to be for the EU models?


ECU firmware update and a laminar flow screen added to the MAF for the 1.6L models. http://autoweek.com/article/vw-diesel-scandal/vws-fix-european-diesels-greenlit-german-authorities


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

dmorrow said:


> I understand what you are saying (and possibly agree) I just haven't seen any proof or numbers that say fixing the cars is unrealistic or not cost effective. If it even comes close to being cost effective then I believe they should fix the problem and clean up their mess. Them showing a plan that isn't acceptable to CARB isn't really proof of anything as it is only the CARB vehicles (California and a few other states that follow CARB) and I don't know what they proposed or what needs to be done for the rest of the cars in the U.S.
> 
> $1 billion/500,000 cars = $2,000 per car, although realistically the number of affected cars is shrinking by some small amount every month through normal crashes.
> 
> I also don't know if putting $2,000 towards reducing the pollution coming out of each car is better or worse than putting towards something else. Then if you put this money towards something that was going to be done anyway it isn't helping the overall pollution.


I'd much rather they fix the cars then be forced to a buyback. That would let me keep them another 8 to 12 years without any payments, otherwise I'd be forced into a double payment if both cars had to be bought back.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

noatonement said:


> I dont think anyone is saying the fix is impossible, the point was that, go ahead and fine VW whatever amount they deem necessary but when concerning the fix for the TDIs, if the fix would cost $1 billion and would take 1-2 years to complete, maybe that $1 billion could be applied elsewhere that would have a greater net positive impact on the environment than fixing the current crop of cars.
> 
> 
> CARB and the EPA are suppose to be in the business of environmental regulations and improving our environment as a whole, not in the business of corporate take downs. So if the money and resources required to complete the fix could be applied elsewhere that would better impact the environment positively, that's how it should be approached. That's just concerning the fix, not any fines or lawsuits that are pending.


You miss the point. CARB and the EPA protect the environment through regulations and punishment for running afoul of the law. To say well fines don't help the environment is true. But what they do is provide a disincentive for other companies to violate the law.

It's like committing business fraud and the fines put you out of business. Doesn't help the people you defrauded, but potentially helps many others when other businesses think twice about committing fraud based on possible punishments.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

T5 Dave said:


> I'd much rather they fix the cars then be forced to a buyback. That would let me keep them another 8 to 12 years without any payments, otherwise I'd be forced into a double payment if both cars had to be bought back.


You wouldn't get enough from 2 buybacks to buy one car out-right and only have payments on the other?


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

JitteryJoe said:


> You wouldn't get enough from 2 buybacks to buy one car out-right and only have payments on the other?


The point is I don't have any payments right now and haven't for the last 15 years. If they force me to do a buyback then I would, and I just don't want to do that right now.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

I've noticed AutoBlog dive deeper and deeper into politics lately. This is the first I have heard of a conspiracy theory on the diesel deal....

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/01/26/vw-diesel-scandal-us-government-conspiracy-opinion/


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

aj4066 said:


> I've noticed AutoBlog dive deeper and deeper into politics lately. This is the first I have heard of a conspiracy theory on the diesel deal....
> 
> http://www.autoblog.com/2016/01/26/vw-diesel-scandal-us-government-conspiracy-opinion/


*Speaks with Inspector Clouseau accent* "Ah, the old Egyptian river ploy, eh? De-Nial!


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

noatonement said:


> So if the money and resources required to complete the fix could be applied elsewhere that would better impact the environment positively, that's how it should be approached. That's just concerning the fix, not any fines or lawsuits that are pending.


You assume that EPA and CARB have the authority to do that. I doubt that they do.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

biturbowagon said:


> You assume that EPA and CARB have the authority to do that. I doubt that they do.


Authority obviously a factor to force them but they also have the authority to ignore the issue with specific vehicles if they feel that some other solution is better and want to work with VW on that. 

If VW says this is going to cost us 1 billion dollars 

And the EPA/CArb say ok great would you be interested in spend that 1billion on these offset projects? It actually would likely save vw money in the long run. Fixing 500k vehicles isn't going to happen over night that means wasted engineering resources on the actual fix, wasted warehousing, wasted time on the dealer level too both techs, ordering, service, not to mention all the resources in regards to warranty claim filing and auditing on both ends.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW wins approval to start European recall of rigged diesels
Amarok pickup first model to get software fix*



> FRANKFURT -- Volkswagen Group won approval for the first stage of its recall of 8.5 million VW, Audi, Skoda and Seat vehicles in Europe with rigged diesel engines - while at the same time disputing that the recall means the models have "defeat" devices as defined by EU law.
> 
> Germany's Federal Transport Authority (KBA) said on Wednesday that it has given final approval for VW's proposed fixes to versions of the Amarok pickup with 2.0-liter diesel engines. Under EU type approval law, the fix is valid throughout the 28-nation bloc.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW CEO Mueller casts doubt on whistleblower's account of emissions scandal*



> STUTTGART (Reuters) -- Volkswagen CEO Matthias Mueller cast doubt on a report that said many managers at the automaker knew of, or were involved in, developing emissions test-rigging devices.
> 
> Volkswagen's development of software to cheat diesel-emissions tests was an open secret in its engine development department, Germany's Sueddeutsche Zeitung reported on Jan. 22, citing results from VW's internal probe.
> 
> ...


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

At this point, I would be happy if they did an offset project, left my car alone, but gave me a 10yr/120k powertrain & emissions warranty.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> I've noticed AutoBlog dive deeper and deeper into politics lately. This is the first I have heard of a conspiracy theory on the diesel deal....
> 
> http://www.autoblog.com/2016/01/26/vw-diesel-scandal-us-government-conspiracy-opinion/


Autoblog is just sharing McElroy's observations/thoughts. That's what they do.

As far as the conspiracy theory goes... it shouldn't be a surprise that Germans can come up with zany tin-foil cap ideas, since Americans (and French and Chinese and Japanese and Saudi and etc.) do the same. The Dumb is a universal trait of humans.


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> I've noticed AutoBlog dive deeper and deeper into politics lately. This is the first I have heard of a conspiracy theory on the diesel deal....
> 
> http://www.autoblog.com/2016/01/26/vw-diesel-scandal-us-government-conspiracy-opinion/


Here is my favorite segment of the article:



Autoblog said:


> Unfortunately, Volkswagen keeps feeding the frenzy by its own bumbling missteps. Earlier this month while in Detroit for the auto show, VW's new CEO Matthias Müller told National Public Radio that VW never lied and that this scandal was merely about "not the right interpretation of the American law." Not only did such dissembling create a firestorm, he fed the perception that the company is merely trying to sweep this all under the rug. Read the transcript, it'll make you cringe. The next day Müller asked NPR for a re-do of the interview, claiming that he didn't understand the questions because there was so much noise at the auto show. Seriously, that's what he said.
> 
> The irony in this conspiracy theory is that Volkswagen is a weak player in the American market. There's not that much to tear down. Even tiny Subaru outsells it here. A Volkswagen PR person once tried to explain the company's weak US sales by telling me, "Americans don't appreciate good engineering." To me, nothing explains the company's spectacular lack of success in the US market more than that attitude.


PS: I implore you to watch John McElroy's weekly show, Autoline, on PBS.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

So, I have a question. My sister, who lives in California (to add another complication) has a TDI wagen. 2011, I believe. She was put on the contact list for VW as having a vehicle that fell in the range of recall. She was contacted yesterday with a letter stating that her car was not eligible for buy back as her service schedule was not held.

Her service routine was done by an independent service station and was, in fact, done on time, every time. So, here is the question: VW is obviously trying to block a buy back using this as an out. How is an oil change and DSG service (all done on time, every time) going to prevent buyback for software and hardware issues? Things that VW built into the system in order to cheat the testing? I am honestly mystified here. I have suggested that she do a few things to make light of this in the public eye but what should she do? She is not interested in keeping the car after all of this. And, to be honest, VW has lost me as a customer for life. Not just myself but at any point in time within my circle if anyone ever asks for suggestions, VW products will not be there. In fact, this scenario has already played out twice in the past week or so resulting in purchases from other makes. Not a big deal, I know, but still hardly a rare feeling I am sure. 

California people, perhaps Vad, what should be done about this? She is contemplating legal action as having your car serviced by an independent is not illegal and is not grounds to deny a recall. To hide behind service schedule (that, if I remember correctly, is not a nationwide database) to excuse accountability seems more than a bit wrong.


----------



## grounded87 (Nov 5, 2002)

MCTB said:


> So, I have a question. My sister, who lives in California (to add another complication) has a TDI wagen. 2011, I believe. She was put on the contact list for VW as having a vehicle that fell in the range of recall. She was contacted yesterday with a letter stating that her car was not eligible for buy back as her service schedule was not held.


Well this would be extremely odd, because as of yet there is neither a) a recall for this issue, or b) any buyback plan. 

So I'm not sure how or why anyone would notify her that she is not eligible for something that hasn't been announced yet. 

I'd love to see a copy of that letter.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

grounded87 said:


> I'd love to see a copy of that letter.


The last paragraph reads: _If you are unhappy with this decision contact Dushbaag Dushbaag & Greetysheet attorneys at law and join the class action lawsuit against Volkswagen....._


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Silly_me said:


> The last paragraph reads: _If you are unhappy with this decision contact Dushbaag Dushbaag & Greetysheet attorneys at law and join the class action lawsuit against Volkswagen....._


That is a bold assumption to make. She just does not want the car anymore. She has two children under 3 and a 50 pound dog. With one child, when she bought the car, it was perfectly fine. Now, it is too small. She was looking to sell it and actually put it out there a day or two before the cheating became known. Then, instantly, values took a nose dive and not wanting to take a bath, she still has it. Your assumption of suing as the American way is off on this one. She just wants the value of her car, fair and clear. That is all. It is simple really. So simple that even you could understand it. I hope. 


I have a copy and will work on getting up here. I need to black out contact information first. Here is a quote though:
"The trust of our customers and the public is our most important asset. _While the service history of your vehicle does not meet state or federal requirements for a repurchase or replacement_, please know that there are other efforts underway to ensure that both your vehicle and your trust in out organization are remedied."


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

MCTB said:


> She was contacted yesterday with a letter stating that her car was not eligible for buy back as her service schedule was not held.


As others mentioned there is no recall or buyback in place yet so don't see how this could have come from VW.




> Her service routine was done by an independent service station and was, in fact, done on time, every time.


Were VW approved supplies used?



> How is an oil change and DSG service (all done on time, every time) going to prevent buyback for software and hardware issues?


When there is an actual recall it cannot and will not make that a factor.

As discussed earlier though I could see it becoming a factor in determining value of buy backs if they wanted to. VW screwed up but that doesn't mean being a moron before any of this happened and skipping services or using crap oil and filters should get you top dollar, you devalued your car through cheapness. 



> I have suggested that she do a few things to make light of this in the public eye but what should she do?


Find out who really sent the letter before she embarrasses herself 




> To hide behind service schedule (that, if I remember correctly, is not a nationwide database) to excuse accountability seems more than a bit wrong.


And here we have the ACTUAL place for the Magnuson Moss Warranty act.

I believe her 2011 included all services through maybe the 40k with the purchase of the vehicle, not some care package but included free. When they include that they can put restrictions on how failure to do so contributes to your warranty. Since they have oil specifications and were willing to give it to her free of charge if she goes and uses wolfs head recycled oil and the least reliable filter she can find they are protected under that to void her warranty on related items just as she is protected against them voiding it if she did used the approved oils but on her own. VW and Audi both used proof of regular oil changes and then loosely with approved oil for covering 1.8t sludge engine replacements. If you did 20k mile oil changes on crap oil why should they replace your engine? Vs if you did use the oil they suggested in a timely interval they actually did cover, I replaced several dozen on cars not serviced at dealers but had proper documentation. 


Also there is absolutely a database for vehicles that would have had included services or purchased service plans, that is how they prevent someone from just going to every VW dealer and getting a free oil change every 200 miles. The older system didn't really allow for out of warranty work to be entered into that but the new system I believe does.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

MCTB said:


> That is a bold assumption to make.


Only if she wrote the letter to herself. Has she Dissociative Identity Disorder? Does "Michael Horn" make executive decisions?


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

It is straight from VWoA as it presents itself. 



Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Sounds like she contacted them for a buy back, and they told her that her car isn't a lemon (service history) and to go pound sand.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> Sounds like she contacted them for a buy back, and they told her that her car isn't a lemon (service history)


Yup


Service history in this case has nothing to do with oil change and DSG history but rather to do with she didn't go back 12 times for the same problem with a window switch so was denied as it is not a lemon.



So to again answer your question with this new information, no she should not go crazy public with this as to not embarrass herself.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

MCTB said:


> It is straight from VWoA as it presents itself.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


I think you're misreading that. I believe that is saying it doesn't fall under the typical lemon law based on service history. Since there has been no approved buyback plan yet implemented, this is probably just a boilerplate in response to her request for a buyback.

Hang tight though it's coming soon enough.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

No, Lemon Law makes sense. The confusing part of that the inquiry was not about that, it was about the status of repairs into the problem and a possible timeframe. Buy back wasn't really initially offered up. She wants closer to fair market value so she can upgrade. Not even a VW dealer is willing to give her fair value for it.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

*VOLKSWAGEN SAYS A DIESEL FIX MAY NOT BE POSSIBLE FOR SOME CARS
*
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/29/b...x-may-not-be-possible-for-some-cars.html?_r=0



> FRANKFURT — Volkswagen may buy back some diesel cars in the United States if it can’t make them compliant with air quality rules fast enough, a lawyer for the company says.
> 
> The statement, made during a court hearing by Robert Giuffra, a lawyer defending Volkswagen against class-action suits by owners of tainted diesel vehicles, was the clearest indication yet that the company may not have the technology to bring emissions for some of the cars into line with regulations without hurting performance and fuel economy….


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

MCTB said:


> It is straight from VWoA as it presents itself.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


You might want to take that image down and then re-post so that you actually can't read the info. You can make out the entire VIN, for example.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

*snickers* diesel taint :laugh:


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

biturbowagon said:


> *VOLKSWAGEN SAYS A DIESEL FIX MAY NOT BE POSSIBLE FOR SOME CARS
> *
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/29/b...x-may-not-be-possible-for-some-cars.html?_r=0





> But that solution will not work in the United States because of stricter limits on nitrogen oxide, a pollutant linked to lung ailments and smog. It is particularly difficult for Volkswagen to fix older vehicles equipped with less effective emissions equipment than was installed on newer cars.
> 
> About 320,000 of the Volkswagen diesel cars sold in the United States are equipped with the first generation of the motor, known as the EA 189, that is at the heart of the scandal. Those motors, which began appearing in the United States in the 2009 model year, have a device known as a nitrogen oxide trap that is considered less effective. Those cars are probably the most likely candidates for buybacks.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

Well ****


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

biturbowagon said:


> *VOLKSWAGEN SAYS A DIESEL FIX MAY NOT BE POSSIBLE FOR SOME CARS
> *
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/29/b...x-may-not-be-possible-for-some-cars.html?_r=0


VW's strategy at this point I guess is dragging their feet as long as possible (until end of 2016?) and then announce buyback at "fair" price, whatever that means at that time...


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)




----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

thegoose said:


>


----------



## VW_Enthu1 (Oct 23, 2004)

This is no real shock. There were quite a few people out there who understood diesels and the magnitude of VW's...mess up...that said this was a very big possibility. If it was easy, they wouldn't have fudged the design in the first place when they realized they couldn't do it..

VW is so full of cr*p it's painful..


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

VW_Enthu1 said:


> If it was easy, they wouldn't have fudged the design in the first place when they realized they couldn't do it..


Technology changes, we've covered this already.

Not being able to do something in 2006, doesn't mean you still can't do it today.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

So basically, VW is just going to drag this out for as long as possible and hope for....what exactly?


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

GoHomePossum said:


> So basically, VW is just going to drag this out for as long as possible and hope for....what exactly?


People to forget or get distracted.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> People to forget or get distracted.


Exactly in a few months we should start hearing about the 2020 presidential race and everyone will be distracted.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

Seems to me its becoming likely the 2015+ cars will just get a ecu flash and be done.


----------



## msummers (Nov 30, 2009)

if that was the case the would have done that already.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

msummers said:


> if that was the case the would have done that already.


Not necessarily. Remember the Passat with a less robust system passed all but one test I think. A test that isn't even an EPA requirement. The 2015 cars were not tested in that report, likely have been since but there hasn't been any public proof that they have anything beyond just the cheat software. 

You also don't know if CARB/EPA is lumping this all into one thing or not and requiring a plan for every vehicle not just certain types.

Also doing one now and another in 6 months keeps this issue popping back up and will only anger owners of older vehicles more if they feel their needs are being ignored while new customers are fixed. 

Many reasons why they may have the fix for the current generation but not released it yet. 



Not that these files are there yet, they aren't, but a dealer tech can go log into the VW server and if they know where to look find updated files. There are times that updated files are on the sever in April but VW does not send notice to a dealer about a recall or the update being available until December. Between approval and testing these things take time.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

msummers said:


> if that was the case the would have done that already.


Legal processes take a lot of time, they'll stall it until they can no longer stall, at which point I think they'll announce a buy back for a lot of cars, a big fix for some, and the current generation will get off as either being not included or a software fix.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

chris86vw said:


> Not necessarily. Remember the Passat with a less robust system passed all but one test I think. *A test that isn't even an EPA requirement.*


Yep. People lose sight of this. The car must only pass the previously established EPA test protocols.
It doesn't have to pass the "Let's drive it up a mountain as hard as we can" test that *all* the cars tested failed (even the X5, by some 8 times the "limits")

Unless the EPA wants to test some other cars in real world situations, and see how they do... opcorn:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> Technology changes, we've covered this already.
> 
> Not being able to do something in 2006, doesn't mean you still can't do it today.


Yes, technology changes and at a very rapid pace. There are certain constants, though. CO2 emissions are only a little different between my 50 year old Beetle and our 2008 Honda Fit, as CO2 is nearly directly correlated with the amount of fuel burned and their miles per gallon usage aren't too far apart. Tech doesn't change that output much at all, even though the cars are light years apart in every other regard. 

As I understand it NOX emissions are directly tied with combustion temperature, so on modern lean burn engines it increases, necessitating the traps and other expensive exhaust components to deal with it after the initial burn. Will there be some magic bullet to deal with it in the recall? Perhaps, but I doubt it. Any fix is likely going to reduce performance and/or require urea injection, which would obviously be a _very_ expensive modification.

I wish there were a quick and easy fix, but this is quite a mess they've made for themselves. I hope they (and other car companies by their example) have learned their lesson. I also hope that those who are actually at fault are held accountable. That would be a pleasant surprise.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> As I understand it NOX emissions are directly tied with combustion temperature, so on modern lean burn engines it increases, necessitating the traps and other expensive exhaust components to deal with it after the initial burn. Will there be some magic bullet to deal with it in the recall? Perhaps, but I doubt it. Any fix is likely going to reduce performance and/or require urea injection, which would obviously be a _very_ expensive modification.



Which is exactly where technology has progressed in the last 10 years and what the omg if there was a fix in 2006 they would have done it crowd seems to ignore. The retrofit costs are obviously high but the costs of the actual parts are likely down significantly since 2006, that is where technology comes in. Not CO2 output hasn't changed in 70 years, that has nothing to do with this.

A magic bullet also doesn't mean technology either, yes a very complicated urea system may need to be installed, it being more compact, cheaper to manufacture etc again are where technology over the last 10 years comes in.


The Cr150s make more power stock and tuned and have more complicated emissions systems than the Cr140s, assuming that they will automatically lose performance is silly.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> Which is exactly where technology has progressed in the last 10 years and what the omg if there was a fix in 2006 they would have done it crowd seems to ignore. The retrofit costs are obviously high but the costs of the actual parts are likely down significantly since 2006, that is where technology comes in. Not CO2 output hasn't changed in 70 years, that has nothing to do with this.
> 
> A magic bullet also doesn't mean technology either, yes a very complicated urea system may need to be installed, it being more compact, cheaper to manufacture etc again are where technology over the last 10 years comes in.
> 
> The Cr150s make more power stock and tuned and have more complicated emissions systems than the Cr140s, assuming that they will automatically lose performance is silly.


Perhaps all of that is true, but I simply don't think the costs are going to be in line with a repair that is practical for a _quarter million plus_ cars. (I'm being low as I'm trying to account for attrition and the fact that early examples being more expensive to retrofit). I just don't, at this point, see a practical solution to fix them all. 

I'm fully taking a wait-and-see attitude though, as I'm not an engineer, but if we're seeing information like this then that's certainly _not_ a good sign... Unless you specifically _want_ them to buy back your car, of course.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> I just don't, at this point, see a practical solution to fix them all.


That is completely unrelated to the if they could do it initially they would have which means they can't today comments that I replied to. They weren't questioning practicality they were questioning the ability, they are able to do it and were then.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> Which is exactly where technology has progressed in the last 10 years and what the omg if there was a fix in 2006 they would have done it crowd seems to ignore. The retrofit costs are obviously high but the costs of the actual parts are likely down significantly since 2006, that is where technology comes in. Not CO2 output hasn't changed in 70 years, that has nothing to do with this.
> 
> A magic bullet also doesn't mean technology either, yes a very complicated urea system may need to be installed, it being more compact, cheaper to manufacture etc again are where technology over the last 10 years comes in.
> 
> ...


Don't forget, any fix has to fit within the physical confines of the vehicle. A 2010 Jetta Sportwagen chassis may not have the same space as a 2015 Golf (Jetta) Sportwagen.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> Don't forget, any fix has to fit within the physical confines of the vehicle. A 2010 Jetta Sportwagen chassis may not have the same space as a 2015 Golf (Jetta) Sportwagen.


I understand, also own both (2012 and 2015) and have had them apart/dug into them. If they want to fit it they can fit it.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

90% of the reason I bought my 2015 wagon is because I can slide a bicycle with both wheels on into the back. If I lost that capability then the car immediately becomes unable to do what I bought it to do.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Vicelord said:


> 90% of the reason I bought my 2015 wagon is because I can slide a bicycle with both wheels on into the back. If I lost that capability then the car immediately becomes unable to do what I bought it to do.


That's okay, you'll find another 'neck snapping' economy vehicle.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> I understand, also own both (2012 and 2015) and have had them apart/dug into them. If they want to fit it they can fit it.


You've had both vehicles apart enough to know that the chassis are the same and the space is available in the 2012 (and earlier models) for a complete urea system, piping and all?

Beyond the physical tank, filler and lines, I assume there must also be other sensors and electronics involved that would have to be added or changed.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> You've had both vehicles apart enough to know that the chassis are the same and the space is available in the 2012 (and earlier models) for a complete urea system, piping and all?
> 
> Beyond the physical tank, filler and lines, I assume there must also be other sensors and electronics involved that would have to be added or changed.


I'm a former VW and Audi tech, I still work in a related industry. I have had both cars on lifts next to each other as well as an A3 (old and new) to see about fitting the awd setup (to either 12 or 15) or even the IRS to the 2015 (no point I actually like the beam), and taken measurements to verify what will and will not swap over/fit... If they want to make the systems physically fit they can. Remember there are vehicles with less real estate underneath that fit the stuff such as the beetle :thumbup:



You've inspected these to what level exactly?


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

The 2015 Jetta sedan (which has SCR on the TDI) is the same bodyshell as 2011-2014 ... the cosmetic changes for 2015 are of no relevance. It means there is a solution for having a SCR delivery system within that bodyshell design.

The Mk5 Jetta and Mk5-Mk6 Golf and Sportwagen were never designed to have SCR but if push comes to shove, there's space underneath the vehicle where it could go.

Found a pic with part of the plastic cladding removed. There's a great big space where the exhaust pipe has to go through, ahead of the rear suspension linkage and on the other side of where the fuel tank is.










Even if that isn't suitable for some reason, remember that they are going to have to change exhaust system components anyhow. You could easily imagine a muffler going where that big void is, so that it is only a tailpipe going to the back, and then that frees up most of the space where the huge suitcase muffler is. These cars are quiet even with no muffler at all, so it shouldn't be hard to pass the applicable regulations with a smaller muffler.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> That's okay, you'll find another 'neck snapping' economy vehicle.


Not even something I would joke to my best friend about. How insensitive of you. 














































:laugh:


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Not even something I would joke to my best friend about. How insensitive of you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:laugh:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> I'm a former VW and Audi tech, I still work in a related industry. I have had both cars on lifts next to each other as well as an A3 (old and new) to see about fitting the awd setup (to either 12 or 15) or even the IRS to the 2015 (no point I actually like the beam), and taken measurements to verify what will and will not swap over/fit... If they want to make the systems physically fit they can. Remember there are vehicles with less real estate underneath that fit the stuff such as the beetle :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> You've inspected these to what level exactly?


I didn't say I did any comparison between vehicles. I was just hypothesizing whether VW may have had to do some redesigning of the chassis sheet metal in the newer vehicles to fit the urea systems required. This would make it much more difficult for them to retrofit the systems in the old vehicles. But obviously you have more experience and have looked at at least two models to see there wasn't any sheet metal change between them.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

Couldn't they just put the urea tank in the trunk? Obviously not ideal but I heard that's a possibility.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

Got a letter today from my dealer from where I bought my 2013 Golf TDI. The envelope looked very promising: *Important information about your 2013 Golf*.

I naively assumed this is some great "buyback" or trade-in offer. Reading through the letter, they essentially tell me I can upgrade to a 2016 Golf TSI SEL with trading in my 2013 TDI and paying $14K on top of it  

I looked up the true car value of a 2016 Golf TSI SEL with all the loyalty incentives etc. it comes to about $25K out-the-door. So the trade-in offer they give me is $11K  

Well, my TDI is gone anyways, but receiving these low-ball offers is annoying.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Jack-DE said:


> Got a letter today from my dealer from where I bought my 2013 Golf TDI. The envelope looked very promising: *Important information about your 2013 Golf*.
> 
> I naively assumed this is some great "buyback" or trade-in offer. Reading through the letter, they essentially tell me I can upgrade to a 2016 Golf TSI SEL with trading in my 2013 TDI and paying $14K on top of it
> 
> ...


Got the same thing in the mail today from my dealer for my '13 JSW TDI. They've also been ramping up emails in the past few days trying to get me to come in and buy a new car. I ain't budging.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Jack-DE said:


> Got a letter today from my dealer ........ I naively assumed this is some great "buyback" or trade-in offer.......... Well, my TDI is gone anyways, but receiving these low-ball offers is annoying.


----------



## fknlo (Jun 30, 2004)

Vicelord said:


> Couldn't they just put the urea tank in the trunk? Obviously not ideal but I heard that's a possibility.


Losing cargo space is not an acceptable option for me. I do a lot of driving with a lot of various gear(snowboarding, bikes, fishing, kayak, etc...) in/on the car. I've used _all_ of my available cargo space on multiple occasions. I won't accept a solution that takes any of this away. I'm fine with a buy back. That and a discount on a new car for loyalty around the time the Sportwagen Alltrack comes out might get me into another VW.


----------



## dubdaze68 (Oct 29, 2001)

Dealerships aren't stupid. They're taking advantage of fear and ignorance to push metal out of the door at bargain basement trade.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> I didn't say I did any comparison between vehicles. I was just hypothesizing whether VW may have had to do some redesigning of the chassis sheet metal in the newer vehicles to fit the urea systems required. This would make it much more difficult for them to retrofit the systems in the old vehicles. But obviously you have more experience and have looked at at least two models to see there wasn't any sheet metal change between them.


I'm not saying there were no sheet metal changes, nor am I saying that the 2015 parts will drop right into a 2009 as is.

What I am saying now and have been saying is that all the required parts in some design or another WILL fit if they want them to fit.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> I'm not saying there were no sheet metal changes, nor am I saying that the 2015 parts will drop right into a 2009 as is.
> 
> What I am saying now and have been saying is that all the required parts in some design or another WILL fit if they want them to fit.


What I was saying was that if internal sheet metal was changed from 2009 to 2015 to make room for specific emissions parts, it is possible that they may not be drop-in as I thought you seemed to be implying. 

Yes, I agree that VW has a total system design to meet the old emissions. But applying that design to the older engine and sheet metal might take too much time and money to make it worth while for VW for the 300,000+ earlier TDI models on the road. 

If VW had to do internal changes on the engines, add sensors, change electronics, add lines, wiring, a tank and filler lines, that seems like it would take a long time to redesign, do longevity testing, get emissions approval, manufacture parts, train about a thousand mechanics and then finally retrofit all those parts into existing cars using those trained mechanics. Add to that the issue of different models. It is really a big task for VW if they are to make the cars meet emissions.

Frankly, I could see VW decide to buy back the cars such as Passats or Beetles that might have had lower sales volumes and try to retrofit higher sales volume cars such as Jetta or JSW.


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-deadline-idUSKCN0VA3G6

Clegern said after ARB rejected VW's 2.0 liter proposal "we shifted the case onto a broader field; one where we can discuss settlement terms beyond a recall -- buyback, mitigation, etc."

(From the article, Clegern is an EPA guy I believe)

Looks like tomorrow will be a big day.. where we'll learn nothing new.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

JohnNS said:


> ARB rejected VW's 2.0 liter proposal.


Jeebus Crispies, Anthony Ronald Brown has a lot of clout outside of the outback & moab these days


----------



## spathotan (Jun 14, 2013)

Jack-DE said:


> Got a letter today from my dealer from where I bought my 2013 Golf TDI. The envelope looked very promising: *Important information about your 2013 Golf*.
> 
> I naively assumed this is some great "buyback" or trade-in offer. Reading through the letter, they essentially tell me I can upgrade to a 2016 Golf TSI SEL with trading in my 2013 TDI and paying $14K on top of it
> 
> ...


$11k trade in on a 3-4 year old car that has a very damaged reputation/image and is going to become somebody else's headache (pending "fix") is a low ball offer?


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

JohnNS said:


> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-deadline-idUSKCN0VA3G6
> 
> Clegern said after ARB rejected VW's 2.0 liter proposal "we shifted the case onto a broader field; one where we can discuss settlement terms beyond a recall -- buyback, mitigation, etc."
> 
> ...


That article has to do primarily with the 3.0 liter engine.


----------



## LandKruiser (Mar 20, 2015)

Silly_me said:


> Jeebus Crispies, Anthony Ronald Brown has a lot of clout outside of the outback & moab these days


That was my first thought.:laugh: :thumbup:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Offers are coming in and I can't even get a dealer to talk to me about getting me out of my car. I've tried to talk to 3 dealers and all of them quit responding once I mention I have a TDI vehicle.


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

aj4066 said:


> Offers are coming in and I can't even get a dealer to talk to me about getting me out of my car. I've tried to talk to 3 dealers and all of them quit responding once I mention I have a TDI vehicle.


Same boat here. We'd planned to move in to an SUV (requirements changed. Need room for my mom's wheelchair, both parents and stuff bought shopping) and then this hit. We either get "not interested" or "Can't give you near what it should be worth"


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I bet they try to buy back all the 09-10's and then try to fix the 11'+ cars. At this point, most of the 09-10's probably have a ton of miles on them. They will bring new cars into port and ship those cars off to South America :banghead:


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

.yuk. said:


> I bet they try to buy back all the 09-10's and then try to fix the 11'+ cars. At this point, most of the 09-10's probably have a ton of miles on them. They will bring new cars into port and ship those cars off to South America :banghead:


Yeah, but it's a 'ton' of miles on a diesel, so it's not like the cars are worn out. If anything, they still have lots of life in them. That's what we counted on when we bought them.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

JohnNS said:


> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-deadline-idUSKCN0VA3G6
> 
> Clegern said after ARB rejected VW's 2.0 liter proposal "we shifted the case onto a broader field; one where we can discuss settlement terms beyond a recall -- buyback, mitigation, etc."
> 
> ...


Hopefully something new, at this point any news would be welcomed by me.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

happened to be in the dealer over the weekend buying a battery for moms 08 rabbit.
thought i would ask what the value on our tdi was.

2013 jsw tdi, dsg, sunroof/leather. 21577miles. mint beyond needing a wash and vacuum.
quoted $14k trade in.

yay:banghead:

oh but wait, we would give you "more" (undisclosed more btw), plus $1k owner loyalty... gee thanks.

so a $29k car bought just over 2 yrs ago, now worth less than half original cost.
this is a essentially commuter car, not a big body luxo barge (S, 7, A8, Jag) where >50% depreciation in 2 yrs is expected.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

spathotan said:


> $11k trade in on a 3-4 year old car that has a very damaged reputation/image and is going to become somebody else's headache (pending "fix") is a low ball offer?


Yes.

VW damaged their own reputation, now their own dealership network is trying to take advantage of that. Slimy, if you ask me.
It was still a $30k car just 2-4 short years ago.

Won't you get a little upset if your shiny new Mazda is only worth $5k 1-2 yrs from now??


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

dunhamjr said:


> so a $29k car bought just over 2 yrs ago, now worth less than half original cost.


This is kind of a a 'well duh' moment. To place it into perspective, For ghits and siggles I KBB'd two other $30k when new 2013 cars (22k miles, 'good' condition), Camry XLE and Malibu LTZ. toyota trade-in = $13,5k-15,5k Chevy = $13k-14,3k KBB says the JSWTDI trade in is =$12,2k - 13,7k. Not really a world of difference between the three........


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> This is kind of a a 'well duh' moment. To place it into perspective, For ghits and siggles I KBB'd two other $30k when new 2013 cars (22k miles, 'good' condition), Camry XLE and Malibu LTZ. toyota trade-in = $13,5k-15,5k Chevy = $13k-14,3k KBB says the JSWTDI trade in is =$12,2k - 13,7k. Not really a world of difference between the three........


STOP USING LOGIC!!!! :laugh:


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

First 2-3 years take biggest hit obviously even in a standard market - If you are expecting to get excellent trade in value on a 2 year old TDI with dieselgate going on I wouldn't hold your breath


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Silly_me said:


> This is kind of a a 'well duh' moment. To place it into perspective, For ghits and siggles I KBB'd two other $30k when new 2013 cars (22k miles, 'good' condition), Camry XLE and Malibu LTZ. toyota trade-in = $13,5k-15,5k Chevy = $13k-14,3k KBB says the JSWTDI trade in is =$12,2k - 13,7k. Not really a world of difference between the three........


thats all well and good. but you went and chose two VERY common cars that really have nothing special about them beyond high level of equipment.

the TDI has always had very good resale/trade numbers in its court. why not go find the numbers for a $30k prius to see if your logic still lines up. (i am not sure it will with a prius since a $30k prius is more about features than it being a hybrid)

all i know is 6 months ago my cars trade in was near $18-20k. now its $14k. thats a huge hit in my book.

edit:
i went looking.
to get a $30k 2013 prius, it needed to be a Five. kbb shows trade in range of $15.6k to $17.9k. 
so $3-4k MORE than my JSW TDI. not insignificant since these cars typically hold value in a similar fashion.

not so much post-dieselgate.


----------



## grounded87 (Nov 5, 2002)

thegoose said:


> Hopefully something new, at this point any news would be welcomed by me.


Don't hold your breath. :banghead:


----------



## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

grounded87 said:


> Don't hold your breath. :banghead:




This thread will be over 500 pages before anything happens


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

Silly_me said:


> This is kind of a a 'well duh' moment. To place it into perspective, For ghits and siggles I KBB'd two other $30k when new 2013 cars (22k miles, 'good' condition), Camry XLE and Malibu LTZ. toyota trade-in = $13,5k-15,5k Chevy = $13k-14,3k KBB says the JSWTDI trade in is =$12,2k - 13,7k. Not really a world of difference between the three........


How about this perspective? 2011 CPO'd TDIs coming off two year leases were going for 20-23k when I bought my 2013. I figured I might as well get a brand new new one with a 26k sticker. We aren't exactly talking apples to apples here with the Camry and Malibu. Higher resale value was a very real consideration when purchasing, and now that's shot all to hell. Thanks Obam...I mean VW.:laugh:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

dunhamjr said:


> not insignificant since these cars typically hold value in a similar fashion.


It's like the stock market!


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

I'm still waiting to hear from the ARB as to if they received the proposal or not, but I'm guessing there's not much to report. ARB will probably just acknowledge they have received a proposal from VW and that ARB has a month to respond to it. Similar to with the 2.0, there was no news when VW submitted the plan for the 2.0 - the news was when ARB rejected their proposal a couple months later.

In recent news however, it appears Bosch is again throwing VW under the bus:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...nds-diesels-blames-vw-investigates-internally



> Supplier Bosch Defends Diesels, Blames VW, Investigates Internally
> 
> Automotive supplier Bosch says it had nothing to do with Volkswagen's use of "defeat device" software to cheat on emissions tests.
> 
> ...


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

AZGolf said:


> I'm still waiting to hear from the ARB as to if they received the proposal or not, but I'm guessing there's not much to report. ARB will probably just acknowledge they have received a proposal from VW and that ARB has a month to respond to it. Similar to with the 2.0, there was no news when VW submitted the plan for the 2.0 - the news was when ARB rejected their proposal a couple months later.
> 
> In recent news however, it appears Bosch is again throwing VW under the bus:
> 
> http://www.greencarreports.com/news...nds-diesels-blames-vw-investigates-internally


http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/newsrelease.php?id=783


Received, not stated how long before CARB rejects it though.


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

Silly_me said:


> This is kind of a a 'well duh' moment. To place it into perspective, For ghits and siggles I KBB'd two other $30k when new 2013 cars (22k miles, 'good' condition), Camry XLE and Malibu LTZ. toyota trade-in = $13,5k-15,5k Chevy = $13k-14,3k KBB says the JSWTDI trade in is =$12,2k - 13,7k. Not really a world of difference between the three........


That is one way to put it in perspective. 

but, as others have pointed out, another way is to compare what the track records of the affected VW cars were before and after Dieselgate. 

That yields a significantly different perspective, since one of the strengths of VW TDIs was the strength of its residuals -- at least until Dieselgate.

I know that it was a major reason why I bought mine.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

biturbowagon said:


> another way is to compare what the track records of the affected VW cars were before and after Dieselgate.
> 
> That yields a significantly different perspective, since one of the strengths of VW TDIs was the strength of its residuals -- at least until Dieselgate.


Dirt cheap petrol prices yield a significant perspective when diesel is still commanding premium in this home heating season as well. A lot of factors play into the 'what's it worth' game, though I do apologize for comparing the trade in values of a $30k TDI to that of $30k Toyota Sedan (they are known for dreadful resale) :laugh:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

JohnNS said:


> http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/newsrelease.php?id=783
> 
> 
> Received, not stated how long before CARB rejects it though.



That news release is for the 3.0 diesels, not the 2.0 diesels that they already rejected. The rejection back on 1/12/16 didn't give a time frame for a revised plan: http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/newsrelease.php?id=780


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Silly_me said:


> Dirt cheap petrol prices yield a significant perspective when diesel is still commanding premium in this home heating season as well. A lot of factors play into the 'what's it worth' game, though I do apologize for comparing the trade in values of a $30k TDI to that of $30k Toyota Sedan (they are known for dreadful resale) :laugh:


Not dreadful, but not apples either.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW's sales in Germany slip amid diesel scandal*



> FRANKFURT -- Volkswagen Group's mass-market brands VW, Skoda and Seat saw sales fall in Germany in January in a market where total registrations rose 3.3 percent from a year earlier.
> 
> Passenger car registrations in Germany increased to 218,365 vehicles, data from the KBA federal motor transport authority showed.
> 
> ...


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

dunhamjr said:


> happened to be in the dealer over the weekend buying a battery for moms 08 rabbit.
> thought i would ask what the value on our tdi was.
> 
> *2013 jsw tdi, dsg, sunroof/leather. 21577miles. mint beyond needing a wash and vacuum.
> ...


That doesn't really seem that bad really. If you were going to private party sell it, add 2-3k to that trade in price. Seems about right to me. Cars depreciate.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

AJB said:


> That doesn't really seem that bad really. If you were going to private party sell it, add 2-3k to that trade in price. Seems about right to me. Cars depreciate.


just because it doesnt seem bad to you doesnt mean it isnt.

it tells me that you have not really followed the TDI market for the last 12-14 yrs like i have.
this is a HUGE change to the norm.

just like you say PP resale is higher. true. however it should be 2-3k higher than the $18-19k trade in... not the post dieselgate $12-14k trade in.

anyways. i dont need to argue this any more. the facts are there that for YEARS TDI's held a very high trade in or resale value. that is now diminished, and a number of people bought NEW just 1-2 short years ago because buying USED was foolish since used cars were going for only a few thousand less than brand new cars.

i think that our purchase decisions to buy a new(er) TDI would have likely swayed into buying used had the purchase price difference been closer to what we are seeing now. 
I mean really, getting a car with only 22k miles for half price only 2 yrs and 2+ months after it originally left the dealers lot is a pretty great deal.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

dunhamjr said:


> anyways. i dont need to argue this any more. the facts are there that for YEARS TDI's held a very high trade in or resale value. that is now diminished, and a number of people bought NEW just 1-2 short years ago because buying USED was foolish since used cars were going for only a few thousand less than brand new cars.


indeed.
thats the exact position i was in when i bought my '13 jsw tdi new. 
i sold it about a year ago with 40k miles (i think... maybe a little more) for only a few thousand less than i paid for it new - $20k private party. _dealers_ were offering me $19k sight unseen.

that same car today, about a year later, is worth $12-13k.
ouch!


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

dunhamjr said:


> anyways. i dont need to argue this any more. the facts are there that for YEARS TDI's held a very high trade in or resale value. that is now diminished, and a number of people bought NEW just 1-2 short years ago because buying USED was foolish since used cars were going for only a few thousand less than brand new cars.


yup, I bought a brand new one because it was hardly more than a used one and I could pick the color I wanted.


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

spockcat said:


> That news release is for the 3.0 diesels, not the 2.0 diesels that they already rejected. The rejection back on 1/12/16 didn't give a time frame for a revised plan: http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/newsrelease.php?id=780


Yes, lucky for me I was replying to the person that said they were waiting to hear if VW filed it...


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

At least part of the reduced values TDI's are seeing is because of rock bottom gas prices. Buying a diesel right now to save money on fuel is not something people care about. Somehow, if they get to the point of figuring out "reduced values" this will also need to be considered.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

dmorrow said:


> At least part of the reduced values TDI's are seeing is because of rock bottom gas prices. Buying a diesel right now to save money on fuel is not something people care about. Somehow, if they get to the point of figuring out "reduced values" this will also need to be considered.


Most people, true. But with us we were trying to reduce our overall carbon footprint while at the same time use less ethanol that's now embedded in every gallon of petrol here in the US. 

The latter is a personal peeve where I want to help, at least in an albeit very small way, to not say "Hey world, you starve while we here in the US use our corn to make fuel for our cars." To me that's a very bad message to send. Of course, it doesn't matter that much as I don't use a lot, but after 480,000 cars, it adds up.

So that's another reason I'd prefer not to see a buyback and just fix the car that I already own. (And my wife likes her Jetta, too!)

We'll wait and see . . . .


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

Silly_me said:


> Dirt cheap petrol prices yield a significant perspective when diesel is still commanding premium in this home heating season as well. A lot of factors play into the 'what's it worth' game, though I do apologize for comparing the trade in values of a $30k TDI to that of $30k Toyota Sedan (they are known for dreadful resale) :laugh:



That is also potentially a valid point, albeit not reflective of the pricing realities where I live -- diesel is currently substantially cheaper than premium and mid-grade, and at a few stations is almost as cheap as regular.

However, the facts point to Dieselgate having ruined the residuals on VW diesels, and before the collapse of oil prices. Fuel prices may exacerbate this but did not cause it.


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

T5 Dave said:


> Most people, true. But with us we were trying to reduce our overall carbon footprint while at the same time use less ethanol that's now embedded in every gallon of petrol here in the US.
> 
> The latter is a personal peeve where I want to help, at least in an albeit very small way, to not say "Hey world, you starve while we here in the US use our corn to make fuel for our cars." To me that's a very bad message to send. Of course, it doesn't matter that much as I don't use a lot, but after 480,000 cars, it adds up.
> 
> ...


That makes sense. A big problem with ethanol production is that we do not yet have the technology to produce ethanol economically the way we should: from cellulose rather than from corn. But that's another topic….

I'd like to have a buyback. One way to approach it would be to ship the bought back cars to countries with less strict emissions laws. Then it would be a form of emissions arbitrage: an improvement here, and an improvement in the other country vs. what is currently there.

There are other approaches. I wrote a letter to the NY Times about one -- we'll see if it's published. (Probably not.)


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

biturbowagon said:


> That is also potentially a valid point, albeit not reflective of the pricing realities where I live -- diesel is currently substantially cheaper than premium and mid-grade, and at a few stations is almost as cheap as regular.
> 
> However, the facts point to Dieselgate having ruined the residuals on VW diesels, and before the collapse of oil prices. Fuel prices may exacerbate this but did not cause it.


In my opinion, several things are going on which, in sum, have greatly exacerbated the loss of value experienced in the used TDI market. The emissions scandal no doubt is the lead factor, but the following are very significant other factors:

1. Cheap gas. The overwhelming majority of TDI buyers bought the diesel due to MPG, not emissions concerns. If gasoline was still $4/gal, I think used TDIs would have held significantly more value on the used market, scandal or no scandal.

2. Increasing fuel economy of similarly sized gasoline powered cars. There has been a fairly dramatic rise in MPG over the past decade or two among gas cars. I'm averaging 38 mpg with my 1.4T gas Jetta. You can get a Civic, Corolla, Camry, etc, that all get very good MPG. Over time, TDI mpg has dropped. My wife's 2000 New Beetle TDI was rated at 42/49 and you could exceed that on a good day. My point being, the MPG gap between diesel and gas econo cars has grown smaller. There is less of a value proposition to go diesel for the average person. That has made the TDIs a little less attractive, and hence not quite as hot of an item.

3. VW's overall quality reputation. Let's face it...the average person thinks VWs are unreliable. True or not, this is the perception. Over time, this had eroded resale value of all VWs, including TDIs. Anecdotal example...me. I've owned a lot of VW diesels starting with MK1s up to MK5s. For many years, there was a diesel VW in our driveway. With all the HPFP problems, the DPF you are now saddled with, it just isn't worth it to me any more. I don't want to worry about my HPFP grenading out of warranty. I believe that the HPFP issue got enough traction among people who follow TDIs to torpedo a decent number of sales. A lot of folks aren't specifically worried about this one issue, but do have an impression that a VW is less reliable than a Honda or Toyota. So a car that's perceived as less reliable is worth less on the used market. I think this is coming to roost for VW on the whole, over the past 5 years. People are just done.

4. Lastly, the Jetta and Passat are old and tired, relatively. Both are long overdue for a major refresh. VW has increasingly, even before the TDI scandal, resorted to huge discounts to sell cars at the end of the model year. You never used to see diesels discounted heavily a decade ago. But over the past 5 years, you've been able to get fairly massive discounts on any VW, diesels included, at the end of model year. Far larger discounts than you saw ten years ago. So huge rebates on new cars rolls downhill and hurts used values. 



TL, DR: The emissions scandal was a huge blow. But there are several other things going on that have, combined, contributed substantially to weak resale VW value lately.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> edit:
> i went looking.
> to get a $30k 2013 prius, it needed to be a Five. kbb shows trade in range of $15.6k to $17.9k.
> so $3-4k MORE than my JSW TDI. not insignificant since these cars typically hold value in a similar fashion.


When I looked at KBB for each with 36,000 miles, I saw only an $1800 gap between them. $13,640 for the JSW with TDI, Nav, DSG, and panoramic moonroof. MSRP on that setup was $29,500 in 2013. The 2013 Prius V Five MSRP'd at $30,300 and had a KBB of $15,468. So the Prius was sitting at 51.0% of MSRP and the JSW at 46.2% of MSRP. In dollars, the Prius stickered at $800 more and KBB's at $1828 more now, meaning the value gap is only $1000 when correcting for MSRP. Maybe it's different in your zip code from mine, but though the Toyota held a higher percentage of its value, the JSW wasn't too bad, especially when you consider we're still in stop-sale on new TDIs and values are artificially depressed below what it will be after the fix is announced for all the adblue ones.

Now for all the non-SCR cars that don't have Adblue.... I'm guessing they're screwed, as the fix is either going to suck or they are going to be looking at a buyback for who knows how much.


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> The latter is a personal peeve where I want to help, at least in an albeit very small way, to not say "Hey world, you starve while we here in the US use our corn to make fuel for our cars." To me that's a very bad message to send. Of course, it doesn't matter that much as I don't use a lot, but after 480,000 cars, it adds up..


Ethanol is made from corn that is not for human consumption, but the corn that is used for cattle food. Secondly, the corn used for ethanol must be processed for animal consumption and ethanol is a "natural" by-product of this process to make animal food. Third, the US has had a SURPLUS of this type of corn for several years (I'm sure in large part due to government subsidies) ... more than what can reasonably be used for feeding cattle.


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> indeed.
> thats the exact position i was in when i bought my '13 jsw tdi new.
> i sold it about a year ago with 40k miles (i think... maybe a little more) for only a few thousand less than i paid for it new - $20k private party. _dealers_ were offering me $19k sight unseen.
> 
> ...


My Jetta's KBB was around $22k at the three year mark, which was only a $4200 depreciation hit ($8500 if you factor it from sticker price).



Vicelord said:


> yup, I bought a brand new one because it was hardly more than a used one and I could pick the color I wanted.


Me too. A used TDI Cup 26k miles was around $24k (albeit with a CPO warranty on top of the remaining factory warranty). Got mine new for $26,200 with 0% financing.



dunhamjr said:


> just because it doesnt seem bad to you doesnt mean it isnt.
> 
> it tells me that you have not really followed the TDI market for the last 12-14 yrs like i have.
> this is a HUGE change to the norm.
> ...


Agreed on all counts. I've been following the TDI market closely since 2009.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Geesixty said:


> but the corn that is used for cattle food.


You can call poor people whatever you like, but, seriously, damn.......



Geesixty said:


> I've been following the TDI market closely since 2009.


And yet you still didn't see that 2015 was going to be a bear market?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW brand sales fall again in UK as market grows 3%*



> LONDON (Reuters) -- Sales of Volkswagen-branded cars fell by 14 percent in the UK in January in a total market up nearly 3 percent.
> 
> The decline was the fourth consecutive monthly drop after VW admitted in September to cheating diesel emissions tests in up to 11 million cars globally.
> 
> ...


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

As the days go by, the more and more I get annoyed with this situation. :thumbdown:


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

dunhamjr said:


> just because it doesnt seem bad to you doesnt mean it isnt.
> 
> it tells me that you have not really followed the TDI market for the last 12-14 yrs like i have.
> this is a HUGE change to the norm.
> ...



I'm well aware of past and current TDI pricing. We also bought our tdi because we were planning on keeping it will past 200k, awesome mpg and the statistical higher resale value if for some reason we needed to sell sooner. Having said that our tdi cost $1500 more than an equivalent gas model back in 2011. Now they seemed to be price more like used civics.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Geesixty said:


> Ethanol is made from corn that is not for human consumption, but the corn that is used for cattle food. Secondly, the corn used for ethanol must be processed for animal consumption and ethanol is a "natural" by-product of this process to make animal food. Third, the US has had a SURPLUS of this type of corn for several years (I'm sure in large part due to government subsidies) ... more than what can reasonably be used for feeding cattle.


If ethanol went away wouldn't at least some of these fields being used to produce corn for ethanol be switched over to some other food for human consumption? Basically if the price of corn for cattle feed drops significantly I might decide to grow something else, then reducing its' price as the supply goes up?


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> As the days go by, the more and more I get annoyed with this situation. :thumbdown:


agreed, sure the vehicle is usable and such ... but took a resale hit, along with a market hit. Now the great unknown is Will states start preventing license renewals?

Frustration - if we want to move into another vehicle (or it's totaled) we're going to get a smaller amount for the TDI. And who knows when/if we will get any help from VW.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Isn't switching lawyers is a delay tactic?

*VW replaces top U.S. lawyer as it seeks approval on emissions fix, report says*



> WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Volkswagen Group has replaced the head of its U.S. legal department with an outside lawyer as it works to win approval to fix nearly 600,000 vehicles with excess emissions, a person briefed on the matter told Reuters.
> 
> David Detweiler, an attorney with law firm Clifford Chance, has been named the top attorney at Volkswagen of America Group. An official announcement was expected later today.
> 
> ...


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Well... at least I activated my $1000 yesterday.... 

And VW Canada has NO idea what's going on... the only info was that maaaaybe, maybe they'd have some info to share in April...


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

An oldie but a goodie, so relevant here. This one makes the rounds (and gets photoshopped as needed) around engineering organizations  












sent from The Ether


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/06/business/international/volkswagen-earnings-emissions.html



> FRANKFURT — Volkswagen said on Friday that it would delay reporting its annual earnings and move back the date of its annual shareholders’ meeting because of uncertainty about the cost of its diesel emissions scandal.
> 
> The highly unusual delays reflect how difficult it is for the company to prepare accurate financial statements in the face of official investigations in the United States and other countries and lawsuits by thousands of aggrieved Volkswagen owners.
> 
> ...


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

VW has begun buying back all the earlier (non adblue) cars from dealers. They have not yet started a consumer buyback but it is expected to be announced soon.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...uying-back-dirty-diesels-but-not-from-owners/



The Truth About Cars said:


> Volkswagen is Buying Back Dirty Diesels, But Not From Owners
> By Mark Stevenson on February 5, 2016
> 
> Volkswagen Group of America has begun the process of buying back cars affected by the ongoing diesel emissions scandal, but you shouldn’t expect to receive a letter or phone call with a buyback offer anytime soon.
> ...


So basically it appears the early speculation is starting to pan out; the non-SCR cars may end up being too expensive to fix while also being the cheapest to buy back.


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

Wouldn't read that much in to the dealer buy backs just yet. VW said in late October they'd buy inventory back from dealers if it'd be there 60 days - my guess is that's a part of that program.


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

*Volkswagen to offer generous compensation for U.S. customers*

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN0VG0MF

Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) will offer generous compensation packages for the roughly 600,000 U.S. owners of diesel vehicles that emit an illegal amount of emissions, the head of its claims fund told a German paper.

The German car maker has still not decided whether vehicle owners will be offered cash, car buy-backs, repairs or replacement cars, Kenneth Feinberg told Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Poop. Spouse is going to be super-bummed if they take his car away. 

It's hard enough when car peeps lose their cars, but when people who really aren't into cars but truly like and care for the ones they have get handed the short stick, it's extra awful.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

cpermd said:


> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN0VG0MF
> 
> Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) will offer generous compensation packages for the roughly 600,000 U.S. owners of diesel vehicles that emit an illegal amount of emissions, the head of its claims fund told a German paper.
> 
> The German car maker has still not decided whether vehicle owners will be offered cash, car buy-backs, repairs or replacement cars, Kenneth Feinberg told Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung.


So basically, exactly what they said when the scandal broke...


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

PnZrFsT said:


> So basically, exactly what they said when the scandal broke...


Oh No

This is "better" 

and later


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

cpermd said:


> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN0VG0MF
> 
> Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) will offer generous compensation packages for the roughly 600,000 U.S. owners of diesel vehicles that emit an illegal amount of emissions, the head of its claims fund told a German paper.
> 
> The German car maker has still not decided whether vehicle owners will be offered cash, car buy-backs, repairs or replacement cars, Kenneth Feinberg told Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung.


OK. How about a new 2017 Golf Wagon TDI 6-speed if I trade mine in? Sounds good to me.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

cpermd said:


> Oh No
> 
> This is "better"
> 
> and later


:laugh:


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> Poop. Spouse is going to be super-bummed if they take his car away.
> 
> It's hard enough when car peeps lose their cars, but when people who really aren't into cars but truly like and care for the ones they have get handed the short stick, it's extra awful.


Way to early to worry about speculation on something that might happen at some point. Also, nobody has said the buy back will be a requirement or what the number is. I would sell anything I own for the right amount of money. Next thing is process of announcing the buyback, coming up with the details, then buying at least tens of thousands of cars won't be something that is completed anytime soon. This could easily go on for years. Aren't we already at roughly 6 months since they made the announcement and they new about the problem for a long time before the announcement.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Annual Press Conference (March 10) and Shareholder meetings (April 21) are set to be rescheduled with no proposed date, as of yet. The vibe is that it will get pushed back. 

At this point, I anticipate that unless the fed's put the pressure on VW, it will be late this year before we hear anything.

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/02/07/vw-diesel-scandal-financial-report/


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> So basically it appears the early speculation is starting to pan out; the non-SCR cars may end up being too expensive to fix while also being the cheapest to buy back.


$2500 in parts alone (their guess)? that isn't that much money, having worked at dealers I wouldn't even call that expensive in regards to a warranty situation, for over a year I did about 1 1.8t sludge engine replacement a week! After the dealer marks them up and sells them back to VW and labor I'd guess about 4k per car, if their 2500 in parts is right. Vs the alleged buying back cars at full price, this is chump change. 



Also note this is ONLY CPO cars which the dealers own outright on their own or financed locally but VW put a stop sale on. This seems to be nothing more than a gesture to dealers to get cash back in their pockets to rotate some inventory and keep a float. 

It could also be a means for VW to get a pile of cars to start retrofitting internally, then sell back to dealers/auctions retrofitted which could actually save them some money. 


Personally I would not consider this a sign at all of a consumer buy back.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> $2500 in parts alone (their guess)? that isn't that much money, having worked at dealers I wouldn't even call that expensive in regards to a warranty situation, for over a year I did about 1 1.8t sludge engine replacement a week! After the dealer marks them up and sells them back to VW and labor I'd guess about 4k per car, if their 2500 in parts is right. Vs the alleged buying back cars at full price, this is chump change.


Yeah, $2500 in parts doesn't seem like that much when the cars are probably worth $10k to $15k depending on year, model and mileage/condition. Maybe training and labor is going to be a similar or higher cost? Perhaps the time required to do design and manufacture the parts for the various models is outside the time limit the government wants to impose? Maybe once the new parts are fitted, the cars won't meet the original stated mileage or performance specs so VW is still unsure how to handle that? 

As that Rueters article said:


> The German car maker has *still not decided* whether vehicle owners will be offered cash, car buy-backs, repairs or replacement cars, Kenneth Feinberg told the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

g-man_ae said:


> An oldie but a goodie, so relevant here. This one makes the rounds (and gets photoshopped as needed) around engineering organizations
> 
> 
> 
> ...






spockcat said:


> Yeah, $2500 in parts doesn't seem like that much when the cars are probably worth $10k to $15k depending on year, model and mileage/condition. Maybe training and labor is going to be a similar or higher cost? *Perhaps the time required to do design and manufacture the parts for the various models is outside the time limit the government wants to impose? Maybe once the new parts are fitted, the cars won't meet the original stated mileage or performance specs so VW is still unsure how to handle that? *


some combo of those is my guess.
thatd be a pretty serious engineering effort to presumably pull people off of ongoing engineering work for upcoming models, and get them back onto cars they sold years ago, in order to design/develop/cal/test solutions that will likely end up ultimately performing worse than they did when they were new.

and i wonder if that $2500 includes the development time, or if its just a ballpark of the actual cost of the parts.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

if there is a buy back, would that be at full MSRP when purchased new? As many of us have bought them second hand, would they still be purchased at full price to these owners?


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

Think about all the people that would try to cash in on that (Buy used '09, trade in at dealer for full MSRP, lol) VW isn't that stupid.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

PolishSasquatch said:


> if there is a buy back, would that be at full MSRP when purchased new? As many of us have bought them second hand, would they still be purchased at full price to these owners?


You will get a $100 gift certificate to Olive Garden.


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

PolishSasquatch said:


> if there is a buy back, would that be at full MSRP when purchased new? As many of us have bought them second hand, would they still be purchased at full price to these owners?


You ARE kidding right??


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

MXTHOR3 said:


> Think about all the people that would try to cash in on that (Buy used '09, trade in at dealer for full MSRP, lol) VW isn't that stupid.


perhaps it can be shown via registration papers how long the person has owned it. We purchased ours feb last year. 
So the buy back would apply to original owners only? Hard boning for people that bought them before any of this came to light. 
oh well, no point in speculating. Will see how things pan out. I dont want to get rid of ours, only if full MSRP is offered...assuming MI doesnt ban registering them...then you have a paperweight.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

PolishSasquatch said:


> perhaps it can be shown via registration papers how long the person has owned it. We purchased ours feb last year.
> So the buy back would apply to original owners only? Hard boning for people that bought them before any of this came to light.
> oh well, no point in speculating. Will see how things pan out. I dont want to get rid of ours, only if full MSRP is offered...assuming MI doesnt ban registering them...then you have a paperweight.


No state is going to ban these cars. The EPA wants you to hate VW, not them.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

PolishSasquatch said:


> if there is a buy back, would that be at full MSRP when purchased new? As many of us have bought them second hand, would they still be purchased at full price to these owners?


If my car (with 5,200 miles) were to be purchased back I would accept 110% of MSRP, a number large enough to cover the cost of my purchase and my time/damages. I bought it 45 days before this whole fiasco started, the timing really sucks!


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

PolishSasquatch said:


> if there is a buy back, would that be at full MSRP when purchased new? As many of us have bought them second hand, would they still be purchased at full price to these owners?


no one knows, obviously.

but i am going to go out on a limb and say absolutely, 100% not... 
why if you happen to be the 2nd or 3rd owner (or even first owner really) would you ever think that VW would be obligated to give you nearly $30k on a car you might have only paid $12k for?:banghead:

I could... maybe, MAYBE... but not really see that argument if you were the original owner, since MAYBE you would have bought something else.

But anyone else in the ownership chain? Umm, no.

My guess. 
The buy back, if any happens, would be at pre-dieselgate values plus maybe a little bonus on the top to help make amends with anyone who feels butthurt over having to give up their car.


----------



## dos (Jul 5, 2009)

Vicelord said:


> If my car (with 5,200 miles) were to be purchased back I would accept 110% of MSRP, a number large enough to cover the cost of my purchase and my time/damages. I bought it 45 days before this whole fiasco started, the timing really sucks!


What damages? Are you selling your car?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

PolishSasquatch said:


> if there is a buy back, would that be at full MSRP when purchased new? As many of us have bought them second hand, would they still be purchased at full price to these owners?


Are there any other large scale auto buy backs of vehicles 1 to 6 years old that gave the owners full purchase price? I don't think so. A single lemon car or a small number of buyback recalls.

A recent one for example: http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...d-into-biggest-vehicle-buyback-ever/30739011/



> Nevertheless, the automaker said it will offer to repurchase the trucks and SUVs that have not yet been fixed for a price equal to the original purchase price minus a reasonable allowance for depreciation plus ten percent.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Vicelord said:


> If my car (with 5,200 miles) were to be purchased back I would accept 110% of MSRP, a number large enough to cover the cost of my purchase and my time/damages. I bought it 45 days before this whole fiasco started, the timing really sucks!


and what are you going to give them back for your usage of the car then?

if you really think that they are going to offer you 110% of msrp, i fear you will be sadly disappointed if a buyback offer comes through.

i can see getting what you paid, + TTL... then maybe another $1000 allowance for another VW purchase.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Vicelord said:


> If my car (with 5,200 miles) were to be purchased back I would accept 110% of MSRP, a number large enough to cover the cost of my purchase and my time/damages. I bought it 45 days before this whole fiasco started, the timing really sucks!


LOL. Good luck with that. Did you even pay MSRP? Have you used the car? Why should they pay you more than the value of the vehicle (pre-recall announcement) plus perhaps some inconvenience fee? 

And if you bought a NEW 2015 VW, then your chances of buyback are very slim as those will likely be corrected with a computer change.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Vicelord said:


> If my car (with 5,200 miles) were to be purchased back I would accept 110% of MSRP, a number large enough to cover the cost of my purchase and my time/damages. I bought it 45 days before this whole fiasco started, the timing really sucks!


bwhahahahaahahahahahahaahah!!! :what: :screwy:


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

dos said:


> What damages? Are you selling your car?


The car will surely see diminished value, reduced performance, and reduced economy.

If they want to buy the car back at a lower number then I'll just keep it for a long time as I planned to originally.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

spockcat said:


> And if you bought a NEW 2015 VW, then your chances of buyback are very slim as those will likely be corrected with a computer change.


that's what the word "if" means, we are obviously talking hypothetical in this thread. 

I really hope it's a computer flash and that's what I believe will be the case for urea cars, I'll go to Goodspeed here in Phoenix and have them flash the car and be done with it then deal with Volkswagen for compensation.


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

Vicelord said:


> The car will surely see diminished value, reduced performance, and reduced economy.
> 
> If they want to buy the car back at a lower number then I'll just keep it for a long time as I planned to originally.


The car has already seen a drop in MV. There has been no real evidence that an ECU fix will reduce performance or reduce economy. If a buy-back happens, you're going to more than likely receive either current MV + a little ontop or pre-scandal MV + a little on top.

But as someone else said, the newer your car the less likely a buy back is actually an option for you.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

noatonement said:


> The car has already seen a drop in MV. There has been no real evidence that an ECU fix will reduce performance or reduce economy. If a buy-back happens, you're going to more than likely receive either current MV + a little ontop or pre-scandal MV + a little on top.
> 
> But as someone else said, the newer your car the less likely a buy back is actually an option for you.


pre-scandal MV would be msrp since I bought it right before this started (july 10) and a little on top for me to account for reduced value should be about 110% of the purchase price. I could easily justify asking for more if it came down to a buy back which I, and others, speculate likely won't happen on urea cars.


----------



## DonL (Feb 28, 1999)

GoHomePossum said:


> You will get a $100 gift certificate to Olive Garden.


Ooooooh, faux-talian...


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

Vicelord said:


> pre-scandal MV would be msrp since I bought it right before this started (july 10) and a little on top for me to account for reduced value should be about 110% of the purchase price. I could easily justify asking for more if it came down to a buy back which I, and others, speculate likely won't happen on urea cars.


Realistically if they bought it back at the pre-scandal price you probably would get somewhat close to MSRP, but the MV of the car definitely went down 5-10%? between July to September.

I'm sure VW would have some kind of formula to figure it all out. Would you receive actual MSRP? Probably not but if they gave MV + a little ontop you'd be pretty close


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Vicelord said:


> The car will surely see diminished value, reduced performance, and reduced economy.



Nope, that isn't how this works at all, fuel quantity would not change nor would performance on your 2015 simply due to injecting more urea. IF they even do that..

value, hard to say, the other two, nope.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Vicelord said:


> pre-scandal MV would be msrp since I bought it right before this started (july 10) and a little on top for me to account for reduced value should be about 110% of the purchase price.


If they are buying it back for say MSRP, how are you in anyway affected by reduced value? You don't get paid for reduced value if they are giving you full value for it, this line of thinking defies all logic.

edit on july 11th it wasn't worth what you paid for it either, nothing to do with VW.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

Vicelord said:


> If they want to buy the car back at a lower number then I'll just keep it for a long time as I planned to originally.


Enjoy your car.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

dunhamjr said:


> no one knows, obviously.
> 
> but i am going to go out on a limb and say absolutely, 100% not...
> why if you happen to be the 2nd or 3rd owner (or even first owner really) would you ever think that VW would be obligated to give you nearly $30k on a car you might have only paid $12k for?:banghead:
> ...


The problem is for those of us who bought (in my case both) cars new and expected 15 to 20 years of service life from them at our average of 13k mile per year for her car, 8k/year for mine. Having both cars paid for represents value to me in that if VW hadn't cheated, I would not have a car payment for the next 8 to 13 years. Forcing me to do a buyback of the LNT TDI at current MV or even pre-dieselgate MV means that I'm still out of pocket for a wrongdoing what wasn't of my making. Sure, if I had missed car payments, they come and repossess the car. But the car is fully paid for and is running perfectly fine, and now that VW has made a mistake, they still repossess the car and give me not enough money to replace it.

I live in California, so most likely I won't be able to register the car if there is a forced buyback. so my preference is that they fix the car so I can continue to use it, if not, replace it with another diesel that does comply, as my wife doesn't want another gas-powered car, ever.

Now, if they hand me the keys to a new TDI, I'm happy. I'd be willing to compromise and give them the old one if they lease the replacement to me for at least 8 years (the expected remaining life on the '09) for my current payment costs (It's paid for, so, no out-of-pocket expenses)

But if they force me to give the car back without replacing it with something that's the same my wife and I will be very unhappy.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

MXTHOR3 said:


> Enjoy your car.


Thanks! I do every time I drive it, one of the best purchases I've ever made.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> The problem is for those of us who bought (in my case both) cars new and expected 15 to 20 years of service life from them at our average of 13k mile per year for her car, 8k/year for mine. Having both cars paid for represents value to me in that if VW hadn't cheated, I would not have a car payment for the next 8 to 13 years. Forcing me to do a buyback of the LNT TDI at current MV or even pre-dieselgate MV means that I'm still out of pocket for a wrongdoing what wasn't of my making.


It sounds like what you're getting at is that the amortized cost is different because they would be buying it back only after it had the highest depreciation years, as opposed to your intention of keeping the car until well into it's later depreciation years. For example, a $30k car may depreciate $15k in the first 3 years but only another $10k in the next 10 years. Taking the buyback of a 2013 car in 2016 means losing your car after only 3 years and the biggest depreciation hit. Is that what you're getting at? I sympathize, but it's the same risk as if somebody crashed into your car - generally GAP and things of that type no longer apply to a car that's 3 years old, you simply get paid whatever the present value is. It sucks and the total-life cost amortization difference is real, but I don't think there's anything much you can do about it.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Vicelord said:


> Thanks! I do every time I drive it, *one of the best purchases I've ever made*.


you are contradicting almost every post made before this one......:sly:


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

You'reDrunk said:


> you are contradicting almost every post made before this one......:sly:


How? I love the car.


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

but i want a buy back now


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Vicelord said:


> How? I love the car.


here's one:



Vicelord said:


> The car will surely see diminished value, reduced performance, and reduced economy.
> 
> If they want to buy the car back at a lower number then I'll just keep it for a long time as I planned to originally.


you want out of the car ASAP as you feel it's ruined and/or will be ruined.

in another post you talk about poor timing on the purchase as if had you waited you would have bought a different car, and the inference is that you would be happier as this purchase isn't what you want.

I could go on.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

You'reDrunk said:


> here's one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're adding quite a few things that I never said, where are these coming from?

I said I want to keep the car, I did not say I want out of it, nor did I say I think it will be ruined. I said if they change it I expect compensation.

I said it was poor timing because I bought the car right as the scandal was uncovered, that's a really normal feeling. I'm still glad I have the car and I'm still enjoying it.

You're right, you could go on, but you'd only be further proving you have zero reading comprehension skills. I'm being really level-headed and reasonable about this whole thing compared to 99% of people I hear and read comments from, I don't really care what happens so long as either the car doesn't change, or if it does change I receive fair compensation.

Stop now. thanks.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

VW continues to rearrange the deck chairs on the Bismarck. 

*VW quality chief quits amid diesel scandal fallout*



> FRANKFURT -- Volkswagen named company veteran Hans-Joachim Rothenpieler as head of group quality assurance, replacing Frank Tuch, who held the job for six years and, according to sources, was suspended amid the automaker's emissions scandal.
> 
> Tuch, 48, is leaving VW at his request to take on new challenges elsewhere but will remain an advisor to the group, the automaker said in a statement today.
> 
> ...


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> I sympathize, but it's the same risk as if somebody crashed into your car - generally GAP and things of that type no longer apply to a car that's 3 years old, you simply get paid whatever the present value is.


Not quite the same thing. An accident through your (or someone else's) negligence is one thing and falls into the "oh well that's life" category, which is why insurance exists. But in this case this was an illegal product that was intentionally fraudulent from day one. While full buyback of motor vehicles is very rare, if entirely unheard of, it nevertheless is a consumer product like many other things. How many times have non-automotive products been recalled and refunded for full purchase price? Plenty. It just has to be proven somehow (because VW will of course resist) that automobiles are no different from a spontaneously-combusting cappucino machine in that regard.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

AZGolf said:


> It sounds like what you're getting at is that the amortized cost is different because they would be buying it back only after it had the highest depreciation years, as opposed to your intention of keeping the car until well into it's later depreciation years. For example, a $30k car may depreciate $15k in the first 3 years but only another $10k in the next 10 years. Taking the buyback of a 2013 car in 2016 means losing your car after only 3 years and the biggest depreciation hit. Is that what you're getting at? I sympathize, but it's the same risk as if somebody crashed into your car - generally GAP and things of that type no longer apply to a car that's 3 years old, you simply get paid whatever the present value is. It sucks and the total-life cost amortization difference is real, but I don't think there's anything much you can do about it.





gti_matt said:


> Not quite the same thing. An accident through your (or someone else's) negligence is one thing and falls into the "oh well that's life" category, which is why insurance exists. But in this case this was an illegal product that was intentionally fraudulent from day one. While full buyback of motor vehicles is very rare, if entirely unheard of, it nevertheless is a consumer product like many other things. How many times have non-automotive products been recalled and refunded for full purchase price? Plenty. It just has to be proven somehow (because VW will of course resist) that automobiles are no different from a spontaneously-combusting cappucino machine in that regard.


What Matt said. It's not my fault, it would be VW's fault for forcing me to get rid of the car because of *their *fraud. So if they replace it with a diesel smog-compliant equivalent car and let me keep it for 8 or more years, great, as I won't have any additional expenses. I'd understand that they wouldn't want to just give me a car to replace the old one as I'd wind up 'better' financially (I could sell it for a profit), but my intent is to keep the car for the remaining 8 to 13 years of its service life. That's what I really want to do. If I was forced to buy another car I'd be very upset at VW and not remain a customer.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> What Matt said. It's not my fault, it would be VW's fault for forcing me to get rid of the car because of *their *fraud. So if they replace it with a diesel smog-compliant equivalent car and let me keep it for 8 or more years, great, as I won't have any additional expenses. I'd understand that they wouldn't want to just give me a car to replace the old one as I'd wind up 'better' financially (I could sell it for a profit), but my intent is to keep the car for the remaining 8 to 13 years of its service life. That's what I really want to do. If I was forced to buy another car I'd be very upset at VW and not remain a customer.


What do you think is a FAIR buyback amount on your 2009 Jetta TDI?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

gti_matt said:


> Not quite the same thing. An accident through your (or someone else's) negligence is one thing and falls into the "oh well that's life" category, which is why insurance exists. But in this case this was an illegal product that was intentionally fraudulent from day one. While full buyback of motor vehicles is very rare, if entirely unheard of, it nevertheless is a consumer product like many other things. How many times have non-automotive products been recalled and refunded for full purchase price? Plenty. It just has to be proven somehow (because VW will of course resist) that automobiles are no different from a spontaneously-combusting cappucino machine in that regard.


You're free to join one of the 500 lawsuits ongoing or start your own, although it sounds like everyone is going to end up funneled through the program that VW has set up. VW is truly massive - they aren't going to be playing games here. They hired the most experienced law firm on the planet for compensation programs, so you're going to get what they are going to offer or they will tell you to shove it.

I'll point out a few things about your statement though. You claim that a car wreck is an accident and different from VW, but that's not always true. Plenty of car wrecks are caused by somebody doing something totally illegal: speeding, driving drunk, road rage, and anything else. Lots of wrecks are a result of overtly illegal acts. Insurance will not pay you more just because your car was destroyed during a criminal act. As for your claim that cars are the same as $100 household appliances, good luck with that. Again, join a lawsuit or start your own, but you'll be facing off against the most experienced lawfirm on the planet and trying to convince them that your car is no different from a Keurig machine.

I've been pretty hard on VW for this whole mess but ultimately I don't want to see the 350,000 employees they have all put out of work, their thousands of dealers shut down, and the nation of Germany crushed simply because their top managers (who I believe pushed the 50+ engineers to do this) did the wrong thing. I want to see Piech and all the top executives at VW/Porsche investigated and serve jail time as appropriate, but saying things like how you should get refunded the original purchase price for your used car is out of line and VW is unlikely to agree to such a program.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

dmorrow said:


> What do you think is a FAIR buyback amount on your 2009 Jetta TDI?


$13,000


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

T5 Dave said:


> The problem is for those of us who bought (in my case both) cars new and expected 15 to 20 years of service life from them at our average of 13k mile per year for her car, 8k/year for mine. Having both cars paid for represents value to me in that if VW hadn't cheated, I would not have a car payment for the next 8 to 13 years. Forcing me to do a buyback of the LNT TDI at current MV or even pre-dieselgate MV means that I'm still out of pocket for a wrongdoing what wasn't of my making. Sure, if I had missed car payments, they come and repossess the car. But the car is fully paid for and is running perfectly fine, and now that VW has made a mistake, they still repossess the car and give me not enough money to replace it.


To keep people like you from (legitimately) complaining, they may have to give a very generous buyback offer -- i.e. start at pre-scandal dealer retail market value and add some more to the offer, similar to the generous buyback offers of rusty-frame Toyota Tacoma trucks.


----------



## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

T5 Dave said:


> What Matt said. It's not my fault, it would be VW's fault for forcing me to get rid of the car because of *their *fraud. So if they replace it with a diesel smog-compliant equivalent car and let me keep it for 8 or more years, great, as I won't have any additional expenses. I'd understand that they wouldn't want to just give me a car to replace the old one as I'd wind up 'better' financially (I could sell it for a profit), but my intent is to keep the car for the remaining 8 to 13 years of its service life. That's what I really want to do. If I was forced to buy another car I'd be very upset at VW and not remain a customer.


I agree. I have a friend who owns their '09 free and clear and are currently not in a position for a car payment. Even with some sort of buyback they'll be forced into a car payment which they cannot swing at the moment.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> What Matt said. It's not my fault, it would be VW's fault for forcing me to get rid of the car because of *their *fraud. So if they replace it with a diesel smog-compliant equivalent car and let me keep it for 8 or more years, great, as I won't have any additional expenses. I'd understand that they wouldn't want to just give me a car to replace the old one as I'd wind up 'better' financially (I could sell it for a profit), but my intent is to keep the car for the remaining 8 to 13 years of its service life. That's what I really want to do. If I was forced to buy another car I'd be very upset at VW and not remain a customer.


If I ran into your TDI and totaled your car (similar issue of it not being your fault nothing to do with you), my insurance would give you the market value. The idea that you had great long term plans for the car would be out the window and courts would see market value as fair. You could then take this money and go buy a similar car and not owe anyone any money.



tjl said:


> To keep people like you from (legitimately) complaining, they may have to give a very generous buyback offer -- i.e. start at pre-scandal dealer retail market value and add some more to the offer, similar to the generous buyback offers of rusty-frame Toyota Tacoma trucks.


I agree, for the cars not worth fixing give them a good amount for their cars and 90% of them will leave happy. No matter what is done some will still be unhappy, either with the diminished value, the fix, or the buyback.

This was posted a couple of pages back -


> Volkswagen will offer generous compensation packages to the roughly 600,000 U.S. owners of diesel vehicles whose emissions are over the legal limit, the head of its claims fund told a German paper.
> 
> The German car maker has still not decided whether vehicle owners will be offered cash, car buy-backs, repairs or replacement cars, Kenneth Feinberg told the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung.


----------



## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

dmorrow said:


> If I ran into your TDI and totaled your car (similar issue of it not being your fault nothing to do with you), my insurance would give you the market value. The idea that you had great long term plans for the car would be out the window and courts would see market value as fair. You could then take this money and go buy a similar car and not owe anyone any money.


an accident is different than willful fraud.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> What do you think is a FAIR buyback amount on your 2009 Jetta TDI?





phil123 said:


> $13,000


Good luck with that. KBB trade-in value is $6500 and private party is $7800. Even if we say that the scandal has knocked 20% off, that puts the values at $8100 & $9750 respectively. Better lawyer up!


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

PreDieselGate NADA dealer retail +15% would be nice


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Warning: reasonable TDI owner content ahead.

I think it would be fair of them to buy back the car at pre-scandal value. That, combined with the goodwill package, seems more than fair to me. If they decided to sweeten the offer by also giving a discount on a new VW, cool, but I'm not interested. 

For everyone complaining about "having to sell back the car and start new car payments," use the money you get from the buyback (which, under my scenario, would be the pre-scandal value, so between $8k and 15k in most cases) and buy - wait for it - an equivalent used car!! OMG, novel concept. Since you bought a TDI, with great resale value (at least originally), you should be able to buy a car with similar mileage of the same year and even have a little $$ left over. Problem solved.


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

AZGolf said:


> Good luck with that. KBB trade-in value is $6500 and private party is $7800. Even if we say that the scandal has knocked 20% off, that puts the values at $8100 & $9750 respectively. Better lawyer up!


Insurance payouts for total loss vehicles are based on sales prices from dealers, so dealer retail value, not private party or trade-in value, so that, in theory, the claimant can purchase a similar replacement vehicle with the payout (and they add tax and pro-rated license costs).

I would expect an involuntary sale in the case of this buyback to be based on dealer retail value (pre-scandal), as this is roughly analogous, and VW probably does not want the bad press that will result from giving the affected owners only trade-in value in the buyback.


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

MXTHOR3 said:


> No state is going to ban these cars. The EPA wants you to hate VW, not them.


They won't "ban" them. However, several states will probably refuse to re-register any car that is not in EPA/CARB compliance.

So, if you want to drive your TDI on your farm or on a race track, you should still be able to do so. But if you want it registered to operate legally on public roads, that may be a problem.

I was told that, at least in NY, they will not be re-registered as is, after a certain time (TBD). If VW implements a recall, then the car will be required to have had the recall installed. I did not ask about a buyback, but I assume that such a car will not be able to be re-registered.

The same will probably be true in CA and a few other states.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

Offering pre-scandal KBB is not a buyback program, it's a trade-in program. For me, in order to be considered a "buyback" it would have to be something pretty significantly above KBB. A buyback should leave people feeling (somewhat) whole, not put them into a position where they basically have to re-up with VW (or another manufacturer) to continue driving. Would I take a 'no questions asked' KBB for our car if offered? Maybe. But if I did, I sure wouldn't feel like VW had done me any big favor. Since they are the ones who tanked the car's value with their deceit, offering pre-scandal KBB is the absolute minimum that they could do for customers. I don't think it would fly.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

btitus said:


> A buyback should leave people feeling (somewhat) whole, not put them into a position where they basically have to re-up with VW (or another manufacturer) to continue driving. .


if i'm reading this correctly, you're basically saying you think they should pay you enough that you won't have to buy another car to replace the one they're buying back. :sly:


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

DasCC said:


> I agree. I have a friend who owns their '09 free and clear and are currently not in a position for a car payment. Even with some sort of buyback they'll be forced into a car payment which they cannot swing at the moment.


Why will they be forced into a car payment? The idea is they'd take the buyback amount and wait for it, _buy something else._ Whether that something else is more expensive and requires a car payment is up to the individual. They could buy something cheaper and pocket the difference.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

zhenya00 said:


> Why will they be forced into a car payment? The idea is they'd take the buyback amount and wait for it, _buy something else._ Whether that something else is more expensive and requires a car payment is up to the individual. They could buy something cheaper and pocket the difference.


There might not be a choice, the buy back might just only be applied to a new VW, so yes then a payment could/would be required. I also hope this is not the case. I also have no payments on mine and I do not want to be obligated to buy a new car. 

The $1,000 "goodwill" we received obligated us to spend $500 of it at a VW dealer, so I wouldn't put anything past what VW does with this settlement. Now, if they have (example) 150% x NADA for a straight buyback and 200% x NADA towards a purchase of a _new_ VW, I wouldn't have a problem with something like that.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

The idea that people should get what they paid for the car is crazy, it obviously it isn't what the car is would have been worth without the scandal and I don't see the courts/people following the reasoning that you used your car for at least a year but want all of your money back.

I think they will come up with what market value would have been without the scandal and add some amount above it. If your car would have been worth $10k today (no scandal), it is now worth $8k (because of scandal), and they offer $11,500, most will look at it as taking the money will be better than the alternatives. At that point you could walk away with your $8k car, take the $11,500 for it ($3,500 more than it is currently worth) or fight for more. With them offering 15% more than market value before the scandal I don't see you getting far more than this number and the chances of coming out ahead to make it worth the time and money to fight for it making it not worth the trouble.

Add in the money/credit they already gave to the numbers above and the desire to try to come out farther ahead by fighting for more become even more unlikely.


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

Phil Pugliese said:


> There might not be a choice, the buy back might just only be applied to a new VW, so yes then a payment could/would be required. I also hope this is not the case. I also have no payments on mine and I do not want to be obligated to buy a new car.
> 
> The $1,000 "goodwill" we received obligated us to spend $500 of it at a VW dealer, so I wouldn't put anything past what VW does with this settlement. Now, if they have (example) 150% x NADA for a straight buyback and 200% x NADA towards a purchase of a _new_ VW, I wouldn't have a problem with something like that.


I think there is no way that the money will only be good for another VW. That's a trade-in, not a buy-back. Most VW buyers bought their cars because with the TDI it was a vehicle with a unique set of features that is no longer offered by VW. People will be pissed if that happened, and I think they'd end up with a large class-action suit on their hands which is exactly what bringing on this compensation board is supposed to avoid. A number of my co-workers have affected cars and none of them are interested in another VW.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

GoHomeBroke said:


> if i'm reading this correctly, you're basically saying you think they should pay you enough that you won't have to buy another car to replace the one they're buying back. :sly:


I'm saying that's what a true "buyback" would be. I guess it's also implicit in my thinking that a "buyback" program would have some element of compulsion -- like the Feds or states would force these cars out of circulation. 

So no, I'm not saying that's what I think they should do. I'm saying if you're going to offer a "buyback" then you need to "buy the car back." Not "buy the car from me at current bluebook." In my view it would be more like a lemon-law kind of thing, retroactively applied.

I think it's all going to hinge on what the Feds decide they are going to accept with these cars. If they say "VW, you have to fix every single car to our satisfaction or you have to buy them back and we're taking them all off the road," then I think a buyback would have to be much more generous than just KBB. To me the fact that VW has begun to float "buyback" language means that the fixit plan isn't going all that well...


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

zhenya00 said:


> I think there is no way that the money will only be good for another VW. That's a trade-in, not a buy-back. Most VW buyers bought their cars because with the TDI it was a vehicle with a unique set of features that is no longer offered by VW. People will be pissed if that happened, and I think they'd end up with a large class-action suit on their hands which is exactly what bringing on this compensation board is supposed to avoid. A number of my co-workers have affected cars and none of them are interested in another VW.


Actually, I'm OK with VW if they either 1) repair the fault and make it emissions compliant or, failing that, 2) take the keys from the old car and give me the keys to an equivalent (fully CARB compliant) replacement TDI vehicle. Then I'd remain a loyal customer.

If they gave me current MV on my 7 year-old car or even its pre-scandal value there's no way I could buy another TDI at what they'd give for it, so I'd be out a serious chunk of change to replace the car when the old one was running fine in the first place and would likely do so for another 8 to 13 years. If that were to happen I'd be *very *upset and would not buy another VW again, ever.

Let's not forget that EPA and CARB have a steep fine imposed on VW for every affected car and any affected component on each car ($37,500 per car and $3750 per non-compliant component); perhaps we need to convince CARB/EPA to allow VW to use this money to replace our faulty cars with equivalent models in lieu of paying the fine to EPA/CARB. The whole point of the fine is to convince manufacturers not to do this again, so if the money is spent on making new cars for us instead of merely paying the fine to the government (that they lied to), is that an equivalent punishment?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Phil Pugliese said:


> There might not be a choice, the buy back might just only be applied to a new VW, so yes then a payment could/would be required. I also hope this is not the case. I also have no payments on mine and I do not want to be obligated to buy a new car.


Of all the scenarios possible including VW saying go to hell and them paying everyone 3x the price, I would put the forced to buy another VW at the bottom of the list of options.




> The $1,000 "goodwill" we received obligated us to spend $500 of it at a VW dealer, so I wouldn't put anything past what VW does with this settlement.



Because part of the goodwill was also towards the dealer to assist in compensating them for the 10s of thousands they are losing, employees they are having to let go etc. Especially because VW then also expected dealers to waste their resources processing the goodwill. Believe it or not there are people hurt more by this than any individual TDI owner pretending like their life is ruined by this (its really pathetic actually).


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

zhenya00 said:


> I think there is no way that the money will only be good for another VW. That's a trade-in, not a buy-back. Most VW buyers bought their cars because with the TDI it was a vehicle with a unique set of features that is no longer offered by VW.


Since the later (current) cars SHOULD be fixed, they do actually offer something that in my opinion owning both a 2012 and a 2015 is significantly better and still offers all the original desirable qualities. 

I do agree that a forced vw for vw trade in will be unlikely, there may be extra incentives but it won't be the one and only option.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

btitus said:


> I guess it's also implicit in my thinking that a "buyback" program would have some element of compulsion -- l*ike the Feds* or states would force these cars out of circulation.


Can we just drop this part, the EPA said in the INITIAL announcement of the cheating that they would not be forcing people to sell or even fix their cars..

If there is any bit of confirmed information on the entire scandal it is this. :banghead:


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

chris86vw said:


> Can we just drop this part, the EPA said in the INITIAL announcement of the cheating that they would not be forcing people to sell or even fix their cars..


Not at the initial announcement, however, there's nothing that prevents my state, California, from disallowing me to register the car unless it's compliant after the official fix is approved. And if the official fix is to replace the car, I'm screwed.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Emissions lies haunt VW as automaker faces tougher U.S. Justice Department*



> WASHINGTON (Bloomberg) -- No one has died from the emissions-cheating software Volkswagen Group has admitted it installed in some of its cars, yet the U.S. Justice Department may treat it more harshly than two automakers whose vehicles have killed people.
> 
> General Motors Co. vehicles were fitted with faulty ignition switches linked to at least 124 deaths. Toyota Motor Corp. cars were involved in unintended acceleration responsible for at least four deaths.
> 
> ...


----------



## DonL (Feb 28, 1999)

T5 Dave said:


> Actually, I'm OK with VW if they either 1) repair the fault and make it emissions compliant or, failing that, 2) take the keys from the old car and give me the keys to an equivalent (fully CARB compliant) replacement TDI vehicle. Then I'd remain a loyal customer.
> 
> If they gave me current MV on my 7 year-old car or even its pre-scandal value there's no way I could buy another TDI at what they'd give for it, so I'd be out a serious chunk of change to replace the car when the old one was running fine in the first place and would likely do so for another 8 to 13 years. If that were to happen I'd be *very *upset and would not buy another VW again, ever.
> 
> Let's not forget that EPA and CARB have a steep fine imposed on VW for every affected car and any affected component on each car ($37,500 per car and $3750 per non-compliant component); perhaps we need to convince CARB/EPA to allow VW to use this money to replace our faulty cars with equivalent models in lieu of paying the fine to EPA/CARB. The whole point of the fine is to convince manufacturers not to do this again, so if the money is spent on making new cars for us instead of merely paying the fine to the government (that they lied to), is that an equivalent punishment?


[puts on cynic hat]

The government doesn't care about making the customer whole. They don't give a crap. The government wants their money. They wouldn't give a rat's ass if making the customer whole above and beyond their fines and fees shutters a huge corporation and sends thousands globally into the unemployment line.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

DonL said:


> [puts on cynic hat]
> 
> The government doesn't care about making the customer whole. They don't give a crap. The government wants their money. They wouldn't give a rat's ass if making the customer whole above and beyond their fines and fees shutters a huge corporation and sends thousands globally into the unemployment line.


No, the government wants the car makers not to deceive them again, ever. That's what the fine is for, and in the case mentioned above, the criminal prosecution. Replacing the non-compliant cars with equivalent compliant ones would be a stiff penalty and would encourage other companies not to cheat because of the expense if they were found out.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> Not at the initial announcement, however, there's nothing that prevents my state, California, from disallowing me to register the car unless it's compliant after the official fix is approved. And if the official fix is to replace the car, I'm screwed.


Yes they did and I was just trying to stop people from making that really stupid comment again and again. 

I don't care about your state (which is actually behind in emissions testing and finally catching up with about 20 other states...:screwy, I highlighted what I was commenting to and was VERY specific about the EPA and made no comment about individual states.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

DonL said:


> [puts on cynic hat]
> 
> The government doesn't care about making the customer whole. They don't give a crap. The government wants their money. They wouldn't give a rat's ass if making the customer whole above and beyond their fines and fees shutters a huge corporation and sends thousands globally into the unemployment line.


Whoa whoa whoa, hold up there fella, are you telling me that the fines that will be levied against VW will not be used to help the disenfranchised taxpayers?  I mean, I know that the tobacco money is being used to better the public good against cigarette use........


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> No, the government wants the car makers not to deceive them again, ever.



Yup they have made it quite clearly they don't give a crap bout the E in the EPA...


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

spockcat said:


> *Emissions lies haunt VW as automaker faces tougher U.S. Justice Department*


and this is what's WRONG with our country today. :screwy:

federal prison for this crap....but the bankers are free.......federal prison for fishing without a license.....but not ONE PERSON at GM was prosecuted for over 140 deaths.


:facepalm:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

You'reDrunk said:


> and this is what's WRONG with our country today. :screwy:
> 
> federal prison for this crap....but the bankers are free.......federal prison for fishing without a license.....but not ONE PERSON at GM was prosecuted for over 140 deaths.
> 
> ...



Personally I can't wait for the Netflix original _Making a Polluter_.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

You'reDrunk said:


> and this is what's WRONG with our country today. :screwy:
> 
> federal prison for this crap....but the bankers are free.......federal prison for fishing without a license.....but not ONE PERSON at GM was prosecuted for over 140 deaths.
> 
> ...


Well... one of the things. :laugh:


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

DasCC said:


> I agree. I have a friend who owns their '09 free and clear and are currently not in a position for a car payment. Even with some sort of buyback they'll be forced into a car payment which they cannot swing at the moment.


I'm in the same boat. Car is paid for, we were planning on driving it for another 5 years. No future plans for a car payment. Being paid 10k and forced to return my car won't be enough. If we don't HAVE to let the car go then, I'd like to be compensated for its diminished value IF I ever decided to sell one day. For me it boils down to being forced to give the car back or not. If I'm forced then, I wound expect a lot higher compensation package to off-set the purchase of another car.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

spockcat said:


> *Emissions lies haunt VW as automaker faces tougher U.S. Justice Department*





> General Motors Co. vehicles were fitted with faulty ignition switches linked to at least 124 deaths. Toyota Motor Corp. cars were involved in unintended acceleration responsible for at least four deaths.
> *Neither had to plead guilty in settling criminal allegations, but Volkswagen may be forced to if it's charged with criminal conduct and also wants to settle, according to attorneys who specialize in environmental law.*


sure. go after VW harder than the car companies that killed people.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> sure. go after VW harder than the car companies that killed people.


Is that really whats happening here?  GM got hammered with fines and penalties and they still face civil lawsuits...


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

DasCC said:


> I agree. I have a friend who owns their '09 free and clear and are currently not in a position for a car payment. *Even with some sort of buyback they'll be forced into a car payment which they cannot swing at the moment.*


you do realize there's nothing forcing them to turn their car in. not to mention there's nothing saying who's doing what yet. sure, it's likely that it'll be a buyback for the first gens, but there's been mention already that the EPA can't force these cars off of the road.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

AJB said:


> I'm in the same boat. Car is paid for, we were planning on driving it for another 5 years. No future plans for a car payment. Being paid 10k and forced to return my car won't be enough. If we don't HAVE to let the car go then, I'd like to be compensated for its diminished value IF I ever decided to sell one day. For me it boils down to being forced to give the car back or not. If I'm forced then, I wound expect a lot higher compensation package to off-set the purchase of another car.


In the same boat with an about to be paid off '11. Our 07 CRV is the next in line for replacement.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

GoHomeBroke said:


> you do realize there's nothing forcing them to turn their car in. not to mention there's nothing saying who's doing what yet. sure, it's likely that it'll be a buyback for the first gens, but there's been mention already that the EPA can't force these cars off of the road.


But California and the other CARB states (AZ, CT, ME, MD, MA, NJ, NM, NY, OR, PA, RI, VT, DC, WA) *may* prevent registration if not put into compliance and force them off the road.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

DJMRDARK said:


> Is that really whats happening here?  GM got hammered with fines and penalties and they still face civil lawsuits...


yes.

GM = killed 124 people, severely injured 250+ more (injuries including quadriplegia and paraplegia) and they're at $900 million in fines. 

i'm hoping that these pending lawsuits end up costing them billions. because it will be their just rewards for knowingly sweeping this problem under the rug. i've said it since the beginning, what GM did is worse than what VW did. both are terrible crimes, and both deserve punishment. 

but VW lied about an emissions system that produces a chemical whose main downside to the environment is


> High levels of NOx can have a negative effect on vegetation, including leaf damage and reduced growth. It can make vegetation more susceptible to disease and frost damage. - See more at: http://www.icopal-noxite.co.uk/nox-problem/nox-pollution.aspx#sthash.J9gjSbQo.dpuf


and it's main human health downside is


> NOx mainly impacts on respiratory conditions causing inflammation of the airways at high levels. Long term exposure can decrease lung function, increase the risk of respiratory conditions and increases the response to allergens. - See more at: http://www.icopal-noxite.co.uk/nox-problem/nox-pollution.aspx#sthash.J9gjSbQo.dpuf


whereas GM literally sold a product that they knew would result in people's immediate deaths. 124, so far. and that's not counting the 250+ cases of severe injury that have drastically changed lives and families across the country.

other than the resale value of affected models and stock value, what has the VW scandal affected? 

anyone dead or dying? anyone severely injured in life altering ways? any portion of the environment seeing adverse effects from build up of NOX particles? 

as it's been said before, we can focus on both and see both as being bad. while, simultaneously, recognizing that GM's issue is worse because of the severity of the effects. VW's emission issue will take time to build up to even come close to having visible and measurable effects. GM's ignition issue left a trail of dead bodies and broken families.


----------



## FastGTi (Feb 16, 1999)

Silly_me said:


> Personally I can't wait for the Netflix original _Making a Polluter_.


oddly, _House of Cards _would also be an appropriate name


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

T5 Dave said:


> But California and the other CARB states (AZ, CT, ME, MD, MA, NJ, NM, NY, OR, PA, RI, VT, DC, WA) *may* prevent registration if not put into compliance and force them off the road.


there's an asteroid passing by our planet in a month or so. it *may* come back to hit us in 2017. should i panic about it now?


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

GoHomeBroke said:


> there's an asteroid passing by our planet in a month or so. it *may* come back to hit us in 2017. should i panic about it now?


No, it's not controlled by emotional politicians, unlike the CARB/EPA


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

FastGTi said:


> oddly, _House of Cards _would also be an appropriate name


House of CARBs. :laugh:


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

GoHomeBroke said:


> House of CARBs. :laugh:


*Much *better!


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

T5 Dave said:


> No, it's not controlled by emotional politicians, unlike the CARB/EPA


the information put out about it is.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> yes.
> 
> GM = killed 124 people, severely injured 250+ more (injuries including quadriplegia and paraplegia) and they're at $900 million in fines.
> 
> ...


I don't think you are looking at this correctly. Yes GM should and will get screwed. Close to a billion is just the start.

As for VW they have not only the fines and penalties to pay for, but they'll also likely get hammered for violating numerous trade laws. And addition to that there's still the matter of addressing each and every vehicle sold in violation to the law. EACH of those has a cost associated. *So in the end VW will cost more than GM*, but only* because of the multiple dimensions in which VW violated several laws and regulations, while still needing to fix EACH car.*


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

GoHomeBroke said:


> whereas GM literally sold a product that they knew would result in people's immediate deaths.


That's a pretty liberal interpretation of the decision. By that standard, every automaker that currently sells cars without collision mitigation braking is selling a product they know will result in people's immediate deaths. Should we bring up every automaker on murder charges for daring to sell cars without collision mitigation braking? How about all cars with more than 150 horsepower? How about all cars with a speed limiter more than 75mph? There is no reason to sell a car with more than 150hp and no reason to let road-legal vehicles sold in America go over 75mph. The automakers are selling those products _knowing_ they will result in more deaths than if they restrict them to less power and lower top speeds. Do we bring up every automaker on murder charges because they sell cars outside of what's strictly required?


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

AZGolf said:


> That's a pretty liberal interpretation of the decision. By that standard, every automaker that currently sells cars without collision mitigation braking is selling a product they know will result in people's immediate deaths. Should we bring up every automaker on murder charges for daring to sell cars without collision mitigation braking? How about all cars with more than 150 horsepower? How about all cars with a speed limiter more than 75mph? There is no reason to sell a car with more than 150hp and no reason to let road-legal vehicles sold in America go over 75mph. The automakers are selling those products _knowing_ they will result in more deaths than if they restrict them to less power and lower top speeds. Do we bring up every automaker on murder charges because they sell cars outside of what's strictly required?


I think you missed his point. Totally. Your examples don't line up with what gm did.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Rawcpoppa said:


> I think you missed his point. Totally. Your examples don't line up with what gm did.


What GM did is continually being argued because GM is a company, not a person. Furthermore, it's a sticky situation because Obama allowed the old GM (which made the decisions) to go away via bankruptcy. So the old GM doesn't exist anymore. I'm not saying it's right what the president did, but he helped shield GM just like he shielded all the mortgage and banks he could and why he directed Eric Holder to never prosecute anyone for the financial meltdown. Again, I'm not saying it's right, but he's the president, he gets to call the shots when it comes to the executive branch decisions.

VW, on the other hand, has not gone bankrupt. They are not a different company than they once were. GM made their decisions while going bankrupt. VW made their decisions while swimming in cash and getting rich. Both companies did wrong and GM has certainly paid the price for their decisions. Honestly, all this is leading towards a future where humans will not be allowed to drive cars, and certainly with GM's ignition switch issue I think we're headed towards no more key ignitions. I for one love using my car without ever taking the key out of my pocket and that's likely what we're headed towards. With the other thread about the EPA clamping down on modifying cars, I think we're looking at no more key ignitions, no more human drivers, and no modding. I think the automakers will be 100% on board with this, because the fewer accidents cars have, the fewer opportunities for them to get sued.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

T5 Dave said:


> Actually, I'm OK with VW if they either 1) repair the fault and make it emissions compliant or, failing that, 2) take the keys from the old car and give me the keys to an equivalent (fully CARB compliant) replacement TDI vehicle. Then I'd remain a loyal customer.
> 
> If they gave me current MV on my 7 year-old car or even its pre-scandal value there's no way I could buy another TDI at what they'd give for it, so I'd be out a serious chunk of change to replace the car when the old one was running fine in the first place and would likely do so for another 8 to 13 years. If that were to happen I'd be *very *upset and would not buy another VW again, ever.
> 
> Let's not forget that EPA and CARB have a steep fine imposed on VW for every affected car and any affected component on each car ($37,500 per car and $3750 per non-compliant component); perhaps we need to convince CARB/EPA to allow VW to use this money to replace our faulty cars with equivalent models in lieu of paying the fine to EPA/CARB. The whole point of the fine is to convince manufacturers not to do this again, so if the money is spent on making new cars for us instead of merely paying the fine to the government (that they lied to), is that an equivalent punishment?


Sorry if they give you the current value of the car, why can't you buy an equivalent car with that money? Not understanding all the people here talking about if they give you true value you'll be unable to buy a replacement. 

A 7 year old Prius, Civic, Camry hybrid, etc, will probably cost close to what your buy back amount will be.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> That's a pretty liberal interpretation of the decision.


i'd call it literal.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> What GM did is continually being argued because GM is a company, not a person.


people who run the company made the decision. it's bureaucratic bull**** that allows them to hide behind this logic legally, rather than have the people responsible prosecuted for their inaction.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

vwwtchr said:


> Sorry if they give you the current value of the car, why can't you buy an equivalent car with that money? Not understanding all the people here talking about if they give you true value you'll be unable to buy a replacement.
> 
> A 7 year old Prius, Civic, Camry hybrid, etc, will probably cost close to what your buy back amount will be.


If I'd wanted a gasoline powered car I would have bought it. They were cheaper than the TDI, but I didn't buy it on purpose. Their carbon footprint is bigger than the TDI. Diesel is cheaper than gasoline here in California. Diesels don't suffer from lower mpg when ethanol is added to the fuel to keep the corn lobby happy. Diesels don't have a hybrid battery pack that needs replacing because of the constant charge/discharge cycles on them. VW's drive much better than the mushy-anemic Prius.

*I can't buy an equivalent diesel with the same performance with only MV for compensation that has been maintained by one owner--me.*


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

GoHomeBroke said:


> people who run the company made the decision. it's bureaucratic bull**** that allows them to hide behind this logic legally, rather than have the people responsible prosecuted for their inaction.


I'm with you - send a letter to the president. Corporate prosecutions are down to next to nothing under the current administration. It honestly makes no sense, as he gives all these speeches about being tough on corporate malfeasance but then there's nothing to show for it.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> people who run the company made the decision. it's bureaucratic bull**** that allows them to hide behind this logic legally, rather than have the people responsible prosecuted for their inaction.


I'm going to really simplify this for you.

GM has 250 or so direct plaintiffs, plus federal....

VW has plaintiffs that include the federal government, individual states, cities, plus the thousands of customers who are directly affected. And this does not consider how other countries will hit them. THIS is why the VW penalty will be so much larger than GM.

:beer:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> I'm with you - send a letter to the president. Corporate prosecutions are down to next to nothing under the current administration. It honestly makes no sense, as he gives all these speeches about being tough on corporate malfeasance but then there's nothing to show for it.


i already have. back when we first started having this conversation in this thread, i went home and talked about it with family. my dad ended up inspiring me to write it. "if you feel that strongly about something, your best bet is to do something about it." took a week or so to clean it up so i didn't seem like the typical angry nutjob though. :laugh: found the mailing address for the white house online and sent it off. i've yet to hear back, so it probably got "lost". either way, i'm not expecting anything to come of it. let alone for the first president to be called a ***** on national tv to do anything about it.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

DJMRDARK said:


> I'm going to really simplify this for you.
> 
> GM has 250 or so direct plaintiffs, plus federal....
> 
> ...


VW doesn't have a loophole to hide behind like GM does. the same people who made the decision at GM are still there, protected by the bureaucratic bull**** of "old GM" being a different company from "new GM".


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> VW doesn't have a loophole to hide behind like GM does. the same people who made the decision at GM are still there, protected by the bureaucratic bull**** of "old GM" being a different company from "new GM".


Sigh...there's no loophole.

Companies as business entities are virtual persons. When old GM died, their debt and liabilities died with them typically. New GM is a new "person". Frankly its fortunate that they decided to try to do the right thing, albeit late, by at least agreeing to settle suits and go along with the penalties. Otherwise they could have tied this all up in the courts for decades using that personhood argument. But they did not want to make an enemy of the US government. And several got the axe btw from old GM, CEO included.

The VW case is totally different and has a FAR wider reach than 250 or so plaintiffs. There are tens of thousands....actually hundreds of thousands. How can this not cost far more????:facepalm::screwy:


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> I'm with you - send a letter to the president. Corporate prosecutions are down to next to nothing under the current administration. It honestly makes no sense, as he gives all these speeches about being tough on corporate malfeasance but then there's nothing to show for it.


But... you can't. 

And this is why I've harped incessantly about what I feel are some of the real root causes of spectacular business fiascoes like this lies with the top executive ranks... and even BoDs. 

*In order to prosecute somebody you need to nail them with something illegal, no?* How do you do that when top executives' role is to give nebulous edicts? Motivational speeches? Vague & unrealistic metrics left for underlings to decipher and execute *(i.e. The actual decisions... in detail... are forced/driven to the lower ranks naturally. And therein lies the opportunities to actually prosecute, because those actions are definitive acts. Good or Bad. Right or Wrong. And everything in between.).* 

You can't jail somebody for being a dick of a boss or else Ferdinand would have been jailed ages ago! And plenty others across the industry I'm sure. Sure, you can pressure them to retire with the golden parachute, but that is about it. 

Who is really the guilty one? The grunts and their middle managers too fearful of short term job lost or those who pressured people unrealistically to do the impossible? It's a tough call, because we all know innovations don't come easy and they don't come without some manner of pressure, but what is too much? Personally if it comes with a statement like, "If you can't F'ing do it then I will find somebody who can!" Yeah, that works well. How many YES men & women are you going to get when you make edicts like that?

>>>If you haven't seen it... go check out AUTOLINE with John McElroy. He has a recent chat session with Lutz wherein Bob elaborated on the previously-mentioned dinner he had years ago with Ferdinand where he shared his special trick on motivating people to get things done. The same thing I've been suggesting since the first few pages of this thread.
[video]http://www.autoline.tv/journal/?p=41165[/video]


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

uncleho said:


> But... you can't.
> 
> And this is why I've harped incessantly about what I feel are some of the real root causes of spectacular business fiascoes like this lies with the top executive ranks... and even BoDs.
> 
> ...


Take a look at this list of accounting scandals. Notice how many broke in 2000-2003. They had literally hundreds of prosecutions and in a ton of cases CEOs, presidents, and CFOs went to jail. White collar crime has been around for as long as managers have existed and there's plenty of times in the past where it's been prosecuted. Just not under the current administration.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> Take a look at this list of accounting scandals. Notice how many broke in 2000-2003. They had literally hundreds of prosecutions and in a ton of cases CEOs, presidents, and CFOs went to jail. White collar crime has been around for as long as managers have existed and there's plenty of times in the past where it's been prosecuted. Just not under the current administration.


Not to argue, but is this an "accounting" scandal or are you just using it as an example that there are prosecutions possible?

I realize THOSE type of deeds are illegal and can/do get prosecuted, but specifically to Dieselgate... how can you? Yeah, I'm sure they will prosecute some middle managers who actually came up with the idea, but I just find it comical that we can leave it at such a low level. Right?

I guess I'm hunting for the big fish, but I just can't see how an actual court can find evidence that some top tier execs or chairman at VW specifically told them to and how to cheat. As far as I know... that didn't happen. 

It's not to say I don't wish prosecution upon the class that created such an unfortunate culture, but how do you get to the root? How do you punish those who IMHO created the culture... and will CONTINUE to nurture the culture that led to such a regrettable event?

And as far as this or that admin not prosecuting... I don't know. I have no idea what, why, how. White collar crime is no where near as prioritized for jail time as it should be. It affects multiple times more people than the crimes we jail people for crimes that impact far less. For too long it is dressed up as some petty crime when in fact it negatively affects large sums of people... often times for life times. :thumbdown:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

uncleho said:


> Not to argue, but is this an "accounting" scandal or are you just using it as an example that there are prosecutions possible?


I used it as an example of complex corporate malfeasance where there was a lot of plausible deniability, yet many prosecutions took place, many of which resulted in convictions. VW's story here is really just run of the mill corporate malfeasance, IMO. It's wrong, but it's pretty run of the mill and an investigation with prosecutions really should be possible if prosecutors get the green light from the executive branch.

I'm still going to go on the record here and state that my bet is that not a single executive with VW/Porsche will see criminal prosecution. Perhaps lowest level engineers may, or perhaps a lowest-level engineering manager, but nobody else will ever see individual prosecution. The current criminal proceedings will be settled out of court with a fine, same as was done with GM, Toyota, and many other companies. It will not be any $56 billion either; that number is only to make headlines and demonstrate the severity of the violation under current law.

Right or wrong, that's just what I see happening here.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> I used it as an example of complex corporate malfeasance where there was a lot of plausible deniability, yet many prosecutions took place, many of which resulted in convictions. VW's story here is really just run of the mill corporate malfeasance, IMO. It's wrong, but it's pretty run of the mill and an investigation with prosecutions really should be possible if prosecutors get the green light from the executive branch.
> 
> I'm still going to go on the record here and state that my bet is that not a single executive with VW/Porsche will see criminal prosecution. Perhaps lowest level engineers may, or perhaps a lowest-level engineering manager, but nobody else will ever see individual prosecution. The current criminal proceedings will be settled out of court with a fine, same as was done with GM, Toyota, and many other companies. It will not be any $56 billion either; that number is only to make headlines and demonstrate the severity of the violation under current law.
> 
> Right or wrong, that's just what I see happening here.


Gotcha. 

It'll be interesting what they get hit with. I wonder what if any talks Ankles Merkel will seek through Barak. 

The one thing this administration has chased has been price fixing by the Japanese suppliers.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

vwwtchr said:


> Sorry if they give you the current value of the car, why can't you buy an equivalent car with that money? Not understanding all the people here talking about if they give you true value you'll be unable to buy a replacement.
> 
> A 7 year old Prius, Civic, Camry hybrid, etc, will probably cost close to what your buy back amount will be.


But neither of these cars will give me what I bought my TDI for. Space, a cargo area that I can put my skis and gear in. A manual transmission for driving enjoyment. A large panoramic sunroof. A integrated rack system so I can put racks and a box on top. If I wanted a Prius or Camry Hybrid, I would have bought one of them in the first place.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Phil Pugliese said:


> But neither of these cars will give me what I bought my TDI for. Space, a cargo area that I can put my skis and gear in. A manual transmission for driving enjoyment. A large panoramic sunroof. A integrated rack system so I can put racks and a box on top. If I wanted a Prius or Camry Hybrid, I would have bought one of them in the first place.


so, you're complaining about an eventual possibility that has yet to be decided on. Not because of the value lost, but because you feel it will force you into another car that doesn't check enough boxes. how's that, am i in the ballpark?



> what I bought my TDI for


i think i am.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

Got my goodwill package yesterday. I'm thinking about using it for a tune. :laugh: jk gotta lighten this thread up a little bit though.


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

T5 Dave said:


> If I'd wanted a gasoline powered car I would have bought it. They were cheaper than the TDI, but I didn't buy it on purpose. Their carbon footprint is bigger than the TDI. Diesel is cheaper than gasoline here in California. Diesels don't suffer from lower mpg when ethanol is added to the fuel to keep the corn lobby happy. Diesels don't have a hybrid battery pack that needs replacing because of the constant charge/discharge cycles on them. VW's drive much better than the mushy-anemic Prius.
> 
> *I can't buy an equivalent diesel with the same performance with only MV for compensation that has been maintained by one owner--me.*


Other than your personal preferences, your worries about gasoline electric hybrids are out of date. The Prius' carbon footprint is smaller, even before we knew how much the TDI was actually polluting. They'll get better mileage under every condition even with ethanol blends. And the batteries are dead-reliable. In fact the Prius is among the most reliable car of any kind ever made. 

I'll give you the handling point, but there are now plenty of other manufacturers who make hybrids that handle.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

zhenya00 said:


> Other than your personal preferences, your worries about gasoline electric hybrids are out of date. The Prius' carbon footprint is smaller, even before we knew how much the TDI was actually polluting. They'll get better mileage under every condition even with ethanol blends. And the batteries are dead-reliable. In fact the Prius is among the most reliable car of any kind ever made.
> 
> I'll give you the handling point, but there are now plenty of other manufacturers who make hybrids that handle.


The Prius also has dreadful acceleration. I have a 1/4 mile straight on-ramp that needs to merge with 70 + mph traffic after a 250 foot climb. The Prius loaner I had was such a dog it was dangerous. I'm glad you're happy with yours, but I never want to set foot in one again.

Also, the carbon footprint of the TDI is not the problem, it's only NOx.


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

T5 Dave said:


> The Prius also has dreadful acceleration. I have a 1/4 mile straight on-ramp that needs to merge with 70 + mph traffic after a 250 foot climb. The Prius loaner I had was such a dog it was dangerous. I'm glad you're happy with yours, but I never want to set foot in one again.
> 
> Also, the carbon footprint of the TDI is not the problem, it's only NOx.


That's just plain BS. The Prius' gas pedal map is such that if you aren't used to it, it takes a lot more travel than most people are used to so it gives the impression of being slow as it's tuned for maximum efficiency. Hit the PWR mode button and it maps it to be much more aggressive. It's actual time to 60mph is about 1 second less than that of the TDI. In other words, insignificant. Both are more than adequately powerful enough for any condition.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

zhenya00 said:


> Other than your personal preferences, your worries about gasoline electric hybrids are out of date. The Prius' carbon footprint is smaller, even before we knew how much the TDI was actually polluting. They'll get better mileage under every condition even with ethanol blends. And the batteries are dead-reliable. In fact the Prius is among the most reliable car of any kind ever made.
> 
> I'll give you the handling point, but there are now plenty of other manufacturers who make hybrids that handle.


The Prius isn't one of, it IS the most reliable car ever made.

And the 2016 Prius really fixed a lot of the handling complaints with the new IRS rear suspension.

Even if dieselgate had never happened, it was the TDI's time to go anyways. The technology and the cars it went in to were outdated and long in the tooth. Either that or it needed a complete ground up redesign.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

zhenya00 said:


> That's just plain BS. The Prius' gas pedal map is such that if you aren't used to it, it takes a lot more travel than most people are used to so it gives the impression of being slow as it's tuned for maximum efficiency. Hit the PWR mode button and it maps it to be much more aggressive. It's actual time to 60mph is about 1 second less than that of the TDI. In other words, insignificant. Both are more than adequately powerful enough for any condition.


That's nice, but when I drove the loaner I put my foot into the front bumper and the car wouldn't get out of its own way, let alone oncoming traffic. If the ECU can't figure out that when I command full throttle, then I expect full throttle without having to push buttons somewhere on the panel. The thing was *dangerous *in my daily commute. Again, I'm glad you like yours, but it's not for me.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

T5 Dave said:


> That's nice, but when I drove the loaner I put my foot into the front bumper and the car wouldn't get out of its own way, let alone oncoming traffic. If the ECU can't figure out that when I command full throttle, then I expect full throttle without having to push buttons somewhere on the panel. The thing was *dangerous *in my daily commute. Again, I'm glad you like yours, but it's not for me.





> but when I drove the loaner


what generation Prius was it?


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

GoHomeBroke said:


> what generation Prius was it?



Don't know. It was about 2 years ago.


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

T5 Dave said:


> That's nice, but when I drove the loaner I put my foot into the front bumper and the car wouldn't get out of its own way, let alone oncoming traffic. If the ECU can't figure out that when I command full throttle, then I expect full throttle without having to push buttons somewhere on the panel. The thing was *dangerous *in my daily commute. Again, I'm glad you like yours, but it's not for me.


Total BS from someone who obviously has an inherent dislike for the car. You can keep saying that, but it doesn't make it true. The data isn't fabricated.

I don't love mine, won't buy another one, but bought one when I was able to see past my own biases and appreciate the car for what it is. It's an engineering marvel that anyone who appreciates mechanical things should recognize.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> That's nice, but when I drove the loaner I put my foot into the front bumper and the car wouldn't get out of its own way, let alone oncoming traffic. If the ECU can't figure out that when I command full throttle, then I expect full throttle without having to push buttons somewhere on the panel. The thing was *dangerous *in my daily commute. Again, I'm glad you like yours, but it's not for me.


All you're demonstrating is that *you* are dangerous on the road. If you're such a reckless driver that you're going flat out, wide open throttle all the time, then you are the problem. I 100% guarantee you that normal human beings aren't flat out everywhere. I'm middle-aged now and of all the people I've ridden around with, I'm not sure I've ever ridden with anyone except car enthusiasts who have ever used full throttle. Normal people simply aren't like that. You are the problem, not the car.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> If you're such a reckless driver that you're going flat out, *wide open throttle all the time*, then you are the problem.


All diesel drivers are


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Also, just to drive the safety point home, the Toyota Prius is involved in the fewest fatal accidents of any small car:

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/driver-death-rates

In other words, it is not only not dangerous, it is the safest car of it's size you can buy.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

AZGolf said:


> All you're demonstrating is that *you* are dangerous on the road. If you're such a reckless driver that you're going flat out, wide open throttle all the time, then you are the problem. I 100% guarantee you that normal human beings aren't flat out everywhere. I'm middle-aged now and of all the people I've ridden around with, I'm not sure I've ever ridden with anyone except car enthusiasts who have ever used full throttle. Normal people simply aren't like that. You are the problem, not the car.


No, I need to *match *speed at the top of a 250 foot rise on-ramp to merge with traffic going 70+ mph. The Prius I drove couldn't do that and could only merge at *slower* speeds. In this case, the car was dangerous.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

T5 Dave said:


> No, I need to *match *speed at the top of a 250 foot rise on-ramp to merge with traffic going 70+ mph. The Prius I drove couldn't do that and could only merge at *slower* speeds. In this case, the car was dangerous.


This might be the funniest thing I've read here in a long time.


----------



## SoLo2pointO (Jul 12, 2001)

T5 Dave said:


> That's nice, but when I drove the loaner I put my foot into the front bumper and the car wouldn't get out of its own way, let alone oncoming traffic. If the ECU can't figure out that when I command full throttle, then I expect full throttle without having to push buttons somewhere on the panel. The thing was *dangerous *in my daily commute. Again, I'm glad you like yours, but it's not for me.


But did you die?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> This might be the funniest thing I've read here in a long time.


I think he is confusing an emergency truck run off with an on ramp, all the gravel and sand could have been the reason it was not accelerating... :screwy:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

zhenya00 said:


> And the batteries are dead-reliable.


They better not start using the same batteries in my phone, damn thing doesn't hold a charge half as long as it use to


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> I 100% guarantee you that normal human beings aren't flat out everywhere.


I use it quite a bit.


----------



## cloud09 (Jan 14, 2011)

Hey! This has turned into an amusing, funny thread. I was getting tired of the subject topic. All biases aside ... I really don't think this is a good place for a prius owner to chime in. I know it is an engineering marvel, but we here are diesel enthusiasts, and the TDI is a great Lil diesel, regardless of the cheating emissions sfw, although, I wouldn't call it an engineering marvel. There! Ya happy now? Good ... then go away 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## cloud09 (Jan 14, 2011)

What I wanna know is, WTF did it take VW so long to let us know that VWs are also affected by the Takata air bag danger ?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## cuppie (May 4, 2005)

cloud09 said:


> What I wanna know is, WTF did it take VW so long to let us know that VWs are also affected by the Takata air bag danger ?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


 Because, just maybe? they just recently found out themselves? 
The Takata airbag debacle... probably nowhere near done finding out just how far-reaching it will end up being.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

cuppie said:


> Because, just maybe? they just recently found out themselves?
> The Takata airbag debacle... probably nowhere near done finding out just how far-reaching it will end up being.


wait, now we have faulty airbags to? What model years are affected?


----------



## grounded87 (Nov 5, 2002)

AJB said:


> wait, now we have faulty airbags to? What model years are affected?


There's discussion here with models listed:

http://forums.mwerks.com/showthread.php?7633442-Recall-all-the-VW-s!-680K-recalled-for-Airbags

Party on Wayne. :beer:


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

T5 Dave said:


> If I'd wanted a gasoline powered car I would have bought it. They were cheaper than the TDI, but I didn't buy it on purpose. Their carbon footprint is bigger than the TDI. Diesel is cheaper than gasoline here in California. Diesels don't suffer from lower mpg when ethanol is added to the fuel to keep the corn lobby happy. Diesels don't have a hybrid battery pack that needs replacing because of the constant charge/discharge cycles on them. VW's drive much better than the mushy-anemic Prius.
> 
> *I can't buy an equivalent diesel with the same performance with only MV for compensation that has been maintained by one owner--me.*


Let's be clear. You won't be able to buy the diesel equivalent either. It's well known the power and fuel economy were greater than should have been due to VW cheating. So even if your car is retrofitted it will be slower, lees powerful, with worse fuel economy. All the other nonsense about hybrid batteries has been disproven for about a decade now.



Phil Pugliese said:


> But neither of these cars will give me what I bought my TDI for. Space, a cargo area that I can put my skis and gear in. A manual transmission for driving enjoyment. A large panoramic sunroof. A integrated rack system so I can put racks and a box on top. If I wanted a Prius or Camry Hybrid, I would have bought one of them in the first place.


So basically you can get all the things you want in a Jetta sportwagon 2.5 then right? So now it's down to the what fuel economy? What will the 2.5 cost over the tdi $300-500 a year? Something tells me you're going to end up with well over what your fuel costs would be. So I guess I'm not seeing the issue.




T5 Dave said:


> No, I need to *match *speed at the top of a 250 foot rise on-ramp to merge with traffic going 70+ mph. The Prius I drove couldn't do that and could only merge at *slower* speeds. In this case, the car was dangerous.


Guess what your TDI won't either when you get it back. It will be slower and less efficient when and if it is retrofitted to comply with EPA requirements. Also everything you said about Prius will kill me is BS.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

vwwtchr said:


> Let's be clear. You won't be able to buy the diesel equivalent either. It's well known the power and fuel economy were greater than should have been due to VW cheating. So even if your car is retrofitted it will be slower, lees powerful, with worse fuel economy. All the other nonsense about hybrid batteries has been disproven for about a decade now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not if emissions is changed to SCT with urea injection; my '15 gets better mileage (with) than the '09 (without), so all they have to do is add the SCT.

The Prius I drove was an underpowered dog that handled like soft marshmallows on choppy seas in bad weather. I don't want the thing.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

T5 Dave said:


> No, I need to *match *speed at the top of a 250 foot rise on-ramp to merge with traffic going 70+ mph. The Prius I drove couldn't do that and could only merge at *slower* speeds. In this case, the car was dangerous.


I owned a 2012 Prius 3 for three years prior to our Sienna. It shared garage space with a Golf R.

Everything you are saying is complete BS. You didn't know how to drive it, didn't spend any time learning the throttle maps, and you had a bias against the car from the second you got into it.

So the problem here is the driver, not the car.

The end.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Maximum_Download said:


> I owned a 2012 Prius 3 for three years prior to our Sienna. It shared garage space with a Golf R.
> 
> Everything you are saying is complete BS. You didn't know how to drive it, didn't spend any time learning the throttle maps, and you had a bias against the car from the second you got into it.
> 
> ...


It was a rental, it didn't come with instructions. Only had it for a day. Hated it.


----------



## cloud09 (Jan 14, 2011)

Volkswagen Plans "Generous" Compensation for Diesel Owners. But When?
http://www.fool.com/investing/gener...ce=yahoo&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=article

In the end, I'm looking forward to a happy ending for us patient, loyal TDI enthusiasts.


Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

vwwtchr said:


> So basically you can get all the things you want in a Jetta sportwagon 2.5 then right? So now it's down to the what fuel economy? What will the 2.5 cost over the tdi $300-500 a year? Something tells me you're going to end up with well over what your fuel costs would be. So I guess I'm not seeing the issue.


Again, if I wanted a 2.5, I would have bought that in the first place. If the settlement is reasonable, I will go back to Subaru. If I am going to loose the MPG, I will fain AWD and more space of the Outback which is what I almost bought when I got the TDI.


----------



## Lord Foul (Jun 7, 2013)

zhenya00 said:


> That's just plain BS. The Prius' gas pedal map is such that if you aren't used to it, it takes a lot more travel than most people are used to so it gives the impression of being slow as it's tuned for maximum efficiency. Hit the PWR mode button and it maps it to be much more aggressive. It's actual time to 60mph is about 1 second less than that of the TDI. In other words, insignificant. Both are more than adequately powerful enough for any condition.


So why does Motor Trend think a Prius is two seconds slower than a TDI in 0-60? Are you saying they don't know how to drive either? Do any of us non-Prius fans know how to drive?

http://www.motortrend.com/news/the-big-test-2013-2014-hybrid-and-diesel-sedan-comparison/


----------



## VarianceVQ (Jun 26, 2005)

Lord Foul said:


> So why does Motor Trend think a Prius is two seconds slower than a TDI in 0-60? Are you saying they don't know how to drive either? *Do any of us non-Prius fans know how to drive*?
> 
> http://www.motortrend.com/news/the-big-test-2013-2014-hybrid-and-diesel-sedan-comparison/


I don't know but you could give reading a try to since he just addressed why that would be.

The Prius has three drive modes: ECO, PWR and the standard drive mode. In ECO and standard mode, the car resists kicking in the gasoline engine from a stop briefly even if you floor it. Think of it like "turbo" lag. If you want more immediate power (and a better 0-60 time), then PWR does the job since it will instantly use the gasoline in tandem with the electric motor when throttle is applied.

I've rarely felt the need to use PWR myself since I've never felt like I've been wanting for power when passing or going up hills. Once you get accustomed to how much throttle gives you a certain level of system response, there's little occasion to use ECO or PWR in the usual day-to-day drive, I've found.


----------



## Lord Foul (Jun 7, 2013)

VarianceVQ said:


> I don't know but you could give reading a try to since he just addressed why that would be.
> 
> The Prius has three drive modes: ECO, PWR and the standard drive mode. In ECO and standard mode, the car resists kicking in the gasoline engine from a stop briefly even if you floor it. Think of it like "turbo" lag. If you want more immediate power (and a better 0-60 time), then PWR does the job since it will instantly use the gasoline in tandem with the electric motor when throttle is applied.
> 
> I've rarely felt the need to use PWR myself since I've never felt like I've been wanting for power when passing or going up hills. Once you get accustomed to how much throttle gives you a certain level of system response, there's little occasion to use ECO or PWR in the usual day-to-day drive, I've found.


Are you saying that Motor Trend doesn't know to use the highest power mode for acceleration testing? Please feel free to use more accusations and baseless claims in your answer.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

Can this not turn into a thread about Prius'?


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

I would never purchase another vw with a gas engine. I will never purchase another vw with an automatic transmission. I didn't buy my car to have to sell it before it hit 200,000 miles, and preferably 300,000. There are lots of cars I would consider, but the Prius is so far from being on the list that I don't actually care that they exist.


----------



## grounded87 (Nov 5, 2002)

grawk said:


> I would never purchase another vw with a gas engine. I will never purchase another vw with an automatic transmission. I didn't buy my car to have to sell it before it hit 200,000 miles, and preferably 300,000. There are lots of cars I would consider, but the Prius is so far from being on the list that I don't actually care that they exist.


I love how this thread is bringing back the ultimate lurkers. 

Impressive sir. 2002 join date. less than 100 posts! 

Quality over quantity I say. :beer:


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

Lord Foul said:


> So why does Motor Trend think a Prius is two seconds slower than a TDI in 0-60? Are you saying they don't know how to drive either? Do any of us non-Prius fans know how to drive?
> 
> http://www.motortrend.com/news/the-big-test-2013-2014-hybrid-and-diesel-sedan-comparison/


In the context of the conversation we were having, the owner complaining about how slow the Prius is owns a 2009 TDI rated at 0-60 in ~8.9 seconds.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

zhenya00 said:


> In the context of the conversation we were having, the owner complaining about how slow the Prius is owns a 2009 TDI rated at 0-60 in ~8.9 seconds.


don't forget the TDI's torque.

For all I know I may have had the '09:


http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/prius/2009/road-test/ said:


> Of course, the Prius has its limitations. Does it go around corners? Yes. Does it accelerate from zero to 60 mph? Yes. Does it do either of the above with the slightest bit of enthusiasm? If you have to ask, then don't buy one.


This is exactly what I felt when I drove it



http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/prius/2009/road-test/ said:


> During performance testing, our 2009 Prius test car cantered from zero to 60 mph in 10.3 seconds. That's about a second slower than the typical four-cylinder family sedan's performance, but it's downright quick compared with the Honda Civic Hybrid's 13.5-second stroll.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Enough Prius/TDI comparison. Back to regular VW cheating news;

*VW's Winterkorn told of defeat device probe in 2014, report says*



> FRANKFURT (Bloomberg) -- Former Volkswagen Group CEO Martin Winterkorn was notified as early as May of 2014 that U.S. authorities would probably inspect the company's cars for an emissions-test defeat device, according to German newspaper Bild am Sonntag.
> 
> A VW employee wrote to Winterkorn to say that the automaker could not provide an explanation for elevated nitrogen oxide emissions and that the authorities would probably look for a test-recognition function in motor-steering software, the paper reported, citing a company document.
> 
> ...


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

spockcat said:


> Enough Prius/TDI comparison. Back to regular VW cheating news;


While we wait, my preference in solving the problem for US cars where the NOx standards are more stringent is the following, in order:

1) fix the cars so they comply. In the case of the '09 with LNT, add the SCT with DEF injection. Probably means a whole new exhaust system, DEF tank, pumps, injectors, computer/control system, wiring, etc. I bought the car expecting a 15 to 20 year service life and it only has 7 on it, so a fix will give me 8 to 13 more years of service. Both cars are paid for.

2) if #1 is impractical, then take the keys to the car that can't be fixed and give me the keys to a replacement TDI that *does* meet all emissions requirements. Unfortunately this may put me in a 'better' position financially if, say, my '09 is replaced with a '16, and I don't want to appear to take advantage of VW and become wealthier at VW's expense by selling the replacement car immediately after the trade is done. So I'd be perfectly fine with establishing a market value for the old car that will be replaced, then VW becomes the lienholder for the new car until such time that the new car's value depreciates to this agreed-upon market value. (payments, if any, would be at the original car's terms and conditions until paid off. If paid off, this does not apply.) That way if I sell the car early, VW can recoup some of their money. But if I keep the car, as intended, for 8 to 13 more years, then the 'new' car reverts title back to me when its value reaches the depreciated value. This could solve a tax issue where if this were not implemented I'd be taxed by the IRS because I was 'gifted' value that I didn't have before. With VW holding the lien until the car depreciates, then, technically, I don't get that 'betterment.'

3) If VW gave me current market value for the old cars I'd be completely *pissed*, _angry_, & irate because there was still 8 to 13 more years of service life, they both were paid for, and then I'd be forced into a car payment to find a replacement. Having no car payments for 15 years represents real value to me in that I'm not shelling out $$$ for payments. If I had missed a payment, sure, the car gets repossessed on me. Totally understandable. But in this case, VW made a mistake and in this scenario the car* still* gets repossessed on me. I'd feel totally screwed if this were to happen.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

(2) is not going to happen because it's way too complicated, I don't even understand what you are trying to accomplish. If you're trying to achieve getting a free new car for the next 6 years, that ain't happening. (3) is possible but if that happens, VW will likely pay a premium above the market value. (How much ... anyone's guess.) At that point, you are perfectly free to buy a used car of your liking on whatever terms you see fit. If the used car is equal or less value than whatever VW pays you for your car, you are no worse off than you are now.

Bear in mind that if (3) happens it means (1) is not happening, which means there will be no compliant '09 - '14 VW TDI cars available on the market, unless there is some screwy deal in which VW fixes some of them but not all of them for whatever reason (e.g. the repair cost exceeds what the car is worth).


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

T5 Dave, you're going to get whatever VW offers you. They already hired Kenneth Feinberg to deal with owner compensation. Whatever Kenneth says is reasonable, that's what you're going to get. Complaining on the internet doesn't mean anything nor accomplish anything, _especially_ if you don't have a lawyer representing you.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

T5 Dave said:


> While we wait, my preference in solving the problem for US cars where the NOx standards are more stringent is the following, in order:
> 
> 3) If VW gave me current market value for the old cars I'd be completely *pissed*, _angry_, & irate because there was still 8 to 13 more years of service life, they both were paid for, and then I'd be forced into a car payment to find a replacement. Having no car payments for 15 years represents real value to me in that I'm not shelling out $$$ for payments. If I had missed a payment, sure, the car gets repossessed on me. Totally understandable. But in this case, VW made a mistake and in this scenario the car* still* gets repossessed on me. I'd feel totally screwed if this were to happen.


So you can't buy a used car to replace your existing used car and not have a payment?


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

spockcat said:


> Enough Prius/TDI comparison. Back to regular VW cheating news;
> 
> *VW's Winterkorn told of defeat device probe in 2014, report says*


In local parlance, "fireman" = "bag man". 

I am so entertained. Not that Winterkorn had a bag man - all CEOs do - but that he ignored him. So much for my opinion that he was not in the loop! This is hte first big aspect that I've not been right on. Of course, there is the possibility that the bag man showed up and Winterkorn just said "I don't want to know".... :facepalm:


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

spockcat said:


> so you can't buy a used car to replace your existing used car and not have a payment?


no you can only replace it with a bugatti duh read about this before you talk!


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

GoFaster said:


> (2) is not going to happen because it's way too complicated, I don't even understand what you are trying to accomplish. If you're trying to achieve getting a free new car for the next 6 years, that ain't happening. (3) is possible but if that happens, VW will likely pay a premium above the market value. (How much ... anyone's guess.) At that point, you are perfectly free to buy a used car of your liking on whatever terms you see fit. If the used car is equal or less value than whatever VW pays you for your car, you are no worse off than you are now.
> 
> Bear in mind that if (3) happens it means (1) is not happening, which means there will be no compliant '09 - '14 VW TDI cars available on the market, unless there is some screwy deal in which VW fixes some of them but not all of them for whatever reason (e.g. the repair cost exceeds what the car is worth).


I already brought this up and was told they have to be able to buy an equivalent diesel wagon for the same price, or they are harmed. 

When I explained that they didn't buy what they bought because acceleration and economy numbers were cheat numbers they didn't care.

So you're never going to get what you want because it's either not possible, or if a newer car scenario, not what you deem "fair".

They are probably not repairing 2009 models, and will offer you fair market value as of 9/1/2015. That's it. What you do with the money from there is up to you. Buy a gas wagon, plug in wagon, hybrid wagon, or new tdi wagon.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

Any idea what the fair market value as of 9/1/15 was on an 09 tdi dsg with 180kms at the time?



vwwtchr said:


> I already brought this up and was told they have to be able to buy an equivalent diesel wagon for the same price, or they are harmed.
> 
> When I explained that they didn't buy what they bought because acceleration and economy numbers were cheat numbers they didn't care.
> 
> ...


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

PolishSasquatch said:


> Any idea what the fair market value as of 9/1/15 was on an 09 tdi dsg with 180kms at the time?


Let's say it's $5K..I am sure the majority of the people who have such a car and there is a good amount would never sell it for that...120% of the FMV was thrown around, $6K still most wouldn't because what are you going to get for $6K to repalce it? 150%, $7500...more options. Still, most people who have 180K mile TDI would have more confidence in that car than most other cars under $10K. I am in this quandry with my 135K mile 2010 JSW. What can I replace it with that will satisfy me?


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

Phil Pugliese said:


> Let's say it's $5K..I am sure the majority of the people who have such a car and there is a good amount would never sell it for that...120% of the FMV was thrown around, $6K still most wouldn't because what are you going to get for $6K to repalce it? 150%, $7500...more options. Still, most people who have 180K mile TDI would have more confidence in that car than most other cars under $10K. I am in this quandry with my 135K mile 2010 JSW. What can I replace it with that will satisfy me?


i was referencing 180 kms not miles, but still. When my wife and I were looking in feb 2015 for our TDI, the market was about 9-13k for 09-10 tdis it seemed. We got ours for 10.5k canadian (she was beign paid in CAD at the time too), with 180 kms on the clock. Currentl yhas 240 kms -which is 150k miles. No way would I want to sell for 7500 as I did not see a single mk5 tdi for that much when we were looking. 
Exactly what you touched on-i have great confidence in the car. It is in pristine condition, took it from Mi to LA, and we daily it, all services always done etc. If I was looking to sell previous to all of this, then I wouldt accept less than 10 for it, and now if I am "forced" to sell it back to VW i have to take a loss on it-and to make ti worse I dont want to sell it, and then spend time looking for a new car, something that gets less mileage etc etc. 

Thing is, in the 90s there was a scandal like this with HD diesel engines where there was an emission scandal. The companies were forced to purchase back the engines (regarless of hours on them) at full purchase price. Whether that will happen-who knows/unlikely.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

spockcat said:


> So you can't buy a used car to replace your existing used car and not have a payment?


Sure! You just have absolutely no idea of its history, unlike a car you've owned since new.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

PolishSasquatch said:


> Thing is, in the 90s there was a scandal like this with HD diesel engines where there was an emission scandal. The companies were forced to purchase back the engines (regarless of hours on them) at full purchase price. Whether that will happen-who knows/unlikely.


I'd love to see an engine buyback program where they remove your diesel engine and replace it with a 2.0T and give you a $1000 gas card. :laugh: They could argue that it's an upgrade, because now you've got GTI/GLI spec power and the gas card makes up the difference in fuel cost for several years.

Another angle is they might be looking at the 500+ lawsuits and starting to lean towards something like a 150% of prior value buyback _contingent_ upon you being ineligible to be party to any lawsuits. For example, if your car had a prior value of $13k, present value of $9k, they offer you $19.5k buyback and VW gains the peace of mind of knowing you can't be counted in any of the class action lawsuits anymore. You as a customer would also be very happy because you just got 150% of prior value and more likely to be a repeat customer or turn around and buy a new VW with the $19.5k you just received. So in a way, they give you money, and hope you turn around and give it right back to them buying another VW.

One way or another, VW has some very stupid managers who allowed all of this to happen and their CEO is an idiot for continuing to make remarks as if they did nothing wrong as recently as what, one month ago? However somebody at that company must be able to look at the facts and know that if they're going to owe billions of dollars, it could be most valuable to owe the money to customers who may turn around and use that money to buy new VWs.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> I'd love to see an engine buyback program where they remove your diesel engine and replace it with a 2.0T and give you a $1000 gas card. :laugh: They could argue that it's an upgrade, because now you've got GTI/GLI spec power and the gas card makes up the difference in fuel cost for several years.


:laugh:

but the only reason thats viable in the HD landscape is that the engine manufacturer is (though not as much anymore) someone other than the truck manufacturer.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

AZGolf said:


> I'd love to see an engine buyback program where they remove your diesel engine and replace it with a 2.0T and give you a $1000 gas card. :laugh: They could argue that it's an upgrade, because now you've got GTI/GLI spec power and the gas card makes up the difference in fuel cost for several years.


I might be alright with that.:beer:


----------



## gsxtocx (May 6, 2005)

So what happens if you don't want to take "the deal" no matter what it is. Could they make you stop driving your car? Could they make you take the deal? Is there any way they could force you to work with them?


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

gsxtocx said:


> So what happens if you don't want to take "the deal" no matter what it is. Could they make you stop driving your car? Could they make you take the deal? Is there any way they could force you to work with them?


It is an emissions issue, the EPA could require you have it done to renew your registration. 

I was told by a source that we are still three weeks out from anything from VW.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Phil Pugliese said:


> It is an emissions issue, the EPA could require you have it done to renew your registration.


Yes, California in particular already has a law on the books that they can legally refuse to let you renew your registration if your car is not in compliance with all air quality directives. If VW's air quality directive is "recall for buyback" then California residents must comply or else they will not be able to renew their registration. It still remains to be seen what VW's determination is and how it will be enacted nationwide versus California in specific, as California has its own air quality board that supersedes the EPA. In other words, it is _possible_ the EPA will accept one action while California requires something different. Since the EPA's Tier 2 that VW violated is roughly the same as California's LEV-II counterpart, it is unlikely that anything the EPA accepts would be rejected by California.



Phil Pugliese said:


> I was told by a source that we are still three weeks out from anything from VW.


That soon? I honestly wouldn't count on it. They already announced a week ago that they need to delay their annual report from March 10th to some undetermined point in April, and the annual general meeting from April 21st to some time in June because they don't think they'll know the financial state of the company until then. I took that to mean that we were months away from VW believing they would have any kind of rollout plan for the US, but three weeks from now would be great.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Phil Pugliese said:


> It is an emissions issue, the *EPA* could require you have it done to renew your registration.


Seriously again with this crap.. jesus people its been MONTHS since the EPA said they would not force people to fix their cars.



States yes.. EPA no. If you don't know don't post.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> Seriously again with this crap.. jesus people its been MONTHS since the EPA said they would not force people to fix their cars.
> 
> 
> 
> States yes.. EPA no. If you don't know don't post.


A thousand pardons...Jeez..let me go back MONTHS to confirm that. I guess I don't post a lot because I don't know...you are special with your 16,000 posts...it shows that you must know a LOT.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Vicelord said:


> no you can only replace it with a bugatti duh read about this before you talk!


Are there enough Bugattis to go around? Would a TT-RS be a suitable replacement?



Air and water do mix said:


> Sure! You just have absolutely no idea of its history, unlike a car you've owned since new.


You're right. All used cars should be crushed once the first owner decides he/she wants a new car and turns in their old car. Everything out there is trash. Anyone who buys a used car must be stupid. :


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

spockcat said:


> You're right. All used cars should be crushed once the first owner decides he/she wants a new car and turns in their old car. Everything out there is trash. Anyone who buys a used car must be stupid. :


Don't be daft. Nobody said anything like that. And all but one of my cars has been used.  

Knowing the entire history of a car is far better than knowing nothing of how it was treated its entire life. To argue otherwise is just ridiculous.


----------



## Turq (Nov 9, 2001)

Air and water do mix said:


> Don't be daft. Nobody said anything like that. And all but one of my cars has been used.
> 
> Knowing the entire history of a car is far better than knowing nothing of how it was treated its entire life. To argue otherwise is just ridiculous.



On the flip side, buying a car new doesn't actually guarantee you know how it's been treated its entire life anyway (to be fair, you know how it's been treated for much -more- of its life); It could have been damaged in shipping (under a certain dollar amount doesn't require disclosure, depending on the state the car is for sale in), it could have been damaged on the -factory floor-, It could have been driven off the RoRo by a longshoreman who was having a really bad day and made himself feel better by doing a few neutral drops...


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

It's not just affecting the TDI cars as well. I also have a TDI, but I was talking with the dealer about possibly trading in our 2012 Jetta SE 2.5 with 47k to upgrade to a Tiguan and they offered us $7600 for the car. 

A few years ago I sold my 82' Rabbit for $3500.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

.yuk. said:


> It's not just affecting the TDI cars as well. I also have a TDI, but I was talking with the dealer about possibly trading in our 2012 Jetta SE 2.5 with 47k to upgrade to a Tiguan and they offered us $7600 for the car.
> 
> A few years ago I sold my 82' Rabbit for $3500.


Apples and oranges. My '91 16v GTI went for $4,500 due to condition and rarity in this day and age. KBB value was under $2k. The wife's '02 Passat KBB's for almost $4k and we might get $3,500.00 and it's in every bit as good of shape as the GTI was, but no way am I doubling blue-book value with it. :thumbup:

I assume that '82 Rabbit did not blue-book anywhere near the $3,500. you got for it so a comparison is worthless, IMO. You simply took advantage of having a car certain people are willing to pay "more" for and your Jetta isn't, that's all. I'm in the same boat with the wagon. :thumbup:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*European car sales rise 6% in January but VW share hit by diesel scandal*



> European car sales rose 6.3 percent to 1.09 million vehicles in January, industry data showed today, even as Volkswagen Group saw registrations of VW-brand cars fall 4 percent in the wake of the automaker's emissions scandal.
> 
> VW rivals Ford and Opel/Vauxhall posted gains of 11.4 percent and 12.4 percent, respectively, as the diesel-emissions cheating scandal weighed on VW's European sales for a fifth consecutive month.
> 
> ...


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

GoFaster said:


> (2) is not going to happen because it's way too complicated, I don't even understand what you are trying to accomplish. If you're trying to achieve getting a free new car for the next 6 years, that ain't happening. (3) is possible but if that happens, VW will likely pay a premium above the market value. (How much ... anyone's guess.) At that point, you are perfectly free to buy a used car of your liking on whatever terms you see fit. If the used car is equal or less value than whatever VW pays you for your car, you are no worse off than you are now.
> 
> Bear in mind that if (3) happens it means (1) is not happening, which means there will be no compliant '09 - '14 VW TDI cars available on the market, unless there is some screwy deal in which VW fixes some of them but not all of them for whatever reason (e.g. the repair cost exceeds what the car is worth).


Doesn't matter if the repair cost is more than what the car is worth, the onus is on VW to fix them because they were the ones that cheated. So as I stated, my preference is that they fix them because I want to keep them another 8 to 13 years.

Failing that, because VW was the one that cheated, their responsibility would be to replace the cars. Remember that CARB and EPA can make VW pay fines of $37,500 for each vehicle out of compliance *plus* $3750 for each of the faulty components, so I could posit that replacing the cars in Option #2 with new ones would actually be *cheaper* to VW if VW could get CARB/EPA to agree to replace the faulty cars with new ones as long as the fine is waived to the gov't in those cases.

Also, while I'd be 'free' to buy a used car in Option #3, so would 480,000 other TDI owners at precisely the same time, which means demand for used cars will spike and drive prices up. This will take me months to find two that were as well cared for as mine were.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Phil Pugliese said:


> A thousand pardons...Jeez..let me go back MONTHS to confirm that. I guess I don't post a lot because I don't know...you are special with your 16,000 posts...it shows that you must know a LOT.


It has actually come up several times just in the last few pages and days in this very thread.

It was also in the EPA announcement about the cheating and on their website about it, the information you care choosing to ignore is more than easily obtained.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> Doesn't matter if the repair cost is more than what the car is worth, the onus is on VW to fix them because they were the ones that cheated. So as I stated, my preference is that they fix them because I want to keep them another 8 to 13 years.
> 
> Failing that, because VW was the one that cheated, their responsibility would be to replace the cars. Remember that CARB and EPA can make VW pay fines of $37,500 for each vehicle out of compliance *plus* $3750 for each of the faulty components, so I could posit that replacing the cars in Option #2 with new ones would actually be *cheaper* to VW if VW could get CARB/EPA to agree to replace the faulty cars with new ones as long as the fine is waived to the gov't in those cases.
> 
> Also, while I'd be 'free' to buy a used car in Option #3, so would 480,000 other TDI owners at precisely the same time, which means demand for used cars will spike and drive prices up. This will take me months to find two that were as well cared for as mine were.


So which of those options has your lawyer told you is the most likely that VW will agree to? Oh you don't have a lawyer? Yeah, you have a 0% chance of getting anything other than what Kenneth Feinberg tells you he thinks is fair. At least if you have your own lawyer there's a 1% chance you'll get something other than what Feinberg assigns to you.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

AZGolf said:


> So which of those options has your lawyer told you is the most likely that VW will agree to? Oh you don't have a lawyer? Yeah, you have a 0% chance of getting anything other than what Kenneth Feinberg tells you he thinks is fair. At least if you have your own lawyer there's a 1% chance you'll get something other than what Feinberg assigns to you.


Feinberg will implement whatever Michael Horn tells him is fair. Feinberg isn't doing this in the dark. Horn needs to ensure whatever is done maintains customer loyalty otherwise whatever money is saved now by chintzing out on the compensation package will affect sales in the very long term. So, yes, they may have to pay more as long as the customers are kept happy through the process. Then they'll return (most likely. Some won't.) If not and if the customers feel screwed if Option #3 is implemented not to their liking, then the US VW market may see a severe impact.


----------



## CostcoPizza (Jan 20, 2008)

Turq said:


> On the flip side, buying a car new doesn't actually guarantee you know how it's been treated its entire life anyway (to be fair, you know how it's been treated for much -more- of its life); It could have been damaged in shipping (under a certain dollar amount doesn't require disclosure, depending on the state the car is for sale in), it could have been damaged on the -factory floor-, It could have been driven off the RoRo by a longshoreman who was having a really bad day and made himself feel better by doing a few neutral drops...


So if you buy used you get to double dip. Damage from the shipping company + damage from the first owner who never really understood how to drive stick. :laugh:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Turq said:


> On the flip side, buying a car new doesn't actually guarantee you know how it's been treated its entire life anyway (to be fair, you know how it's been treated for much -more- of its life); It could have been damaged in shipping (under a certain dollar amount doesn't require disclosure, depending on the state the car is for sale in), it could have been damaged on the -factory floor-, It could have been driven off the RoRo by a longshoreman who was having a really bad day and made himself feel better by doing a few neutral drops...


Absolutely. :beer: That, of course, isn't what he was saying. 

The one car I _did_ buy new was a '97 GTI VR6 "Driver's Edition" (which meant it was yellow and had red stitching/calipers). It had 58 miles on the odo when I got it. How many times did it see redline before I got it? How many burnouts? There's no way for me to know, but I knew 99%+ of its history, unlike buying a 3-4 year old car.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

It's not like Dieselgate is tanking values of vintage VW's. Let me know when a split window Kombi van goes for less than $10k that isn't rusted to oblivion and we may have a point about VW resale values to freak out over it.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

while I can't say specifics....I do have it on good authority (in fact I had to take down a FB post about this). that VW is *NOT* buying back cars....repairs/retrofits will be made.

I can't say more, but it's from a very reliable source.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> Feinberg will implement whatever Michael Horn tells him is fair. Feinberg isn't doing this in the dark. Horn needs to ensure whatever is done maintains customer loyalty otherwise whatever money is saved now by chintzing out on the compensation package will affect sales in the very long term. So, yes, they may have to pay more as long as the customers are kept happy through the process. Then they'll return (most likely. Some won't.) If not and if the customers feel screwed if Option #3 is implemented not to their liking, then the US VW market may see a severe impact.


Feinberg says you're wrong, that he will decide what is fair, not Michael Horn or anyone else:

http://www.examiner.com/article/volkswagen-may-offer-diesel-car-owners-generous-compensation



> “Look at my prior cases: 97 percent of the victims of September 11 accepted my offer. At GM and BP, it was more than 90 percent, too. That has to be my target for VW", the claims administration expert said, adding that *he has full authority to decide on compensation.*


Feinberg will decide what is fair and send VW the bill. That's what VW signed up for, and is probably why they are delaying their annual meeting with the statement that they simply do not know how much this will cost them.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

AZGolf said:


> Feinberg says you're wrong, that he will decide what is fair, not Michael Horn or anyone else:
> 
> http://www.examiner.com/article/volkswagen-may-offer-diesel-car-owners-generous-compensation
> 
> ...


http://www.fool.com/investing/gener...ce=yahoo&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=article says you're wrong:


> Feinberg said *VW *hasn't yet decided whether that compensation will consist of cash, replacement vehicles, or offers to buy back the affected cars. He said VW is very serious about the effort and that he is currently spending 85% of his time *working with* the German auto giant.
> 
> Feinberg said in December that he expected payments from the fund to start with "60 to 90 days." But he walked back that timeline a bit in the interview, saying *he won't be able to start until VW and the U.S. authorities agree* on a plan to recall and repair (or buy back) the affected vehicles.
> 
> "My hands are tied," he said.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

You'reDrunk said:


> while I can't say specifics....I do have it on good authority (in fact I had to take down a FB post about this). that VW is *NOT* buying back cars....repairs/retrofits will be made.
> 
> I can't say more, but it's from a very reliable source.


Could you be a little more specific?:laugh:


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

You'reDrunk said:


> while I can't say specifics....I do have it on good authority (in fact I had to take down a FB post about this). that VW is *NOT* buying back cars....repairs/retrofits will be made.
> 
> I can't say more, but it's from a very reliable source.


If that's the case, I think VW is going to see a surprising amount of folks forego whatever compensation package Feinberg comes up with and stick with their lawsuit.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

R Salesman said:


> If that's the case, I think VW is going to see a surprising amount of folks forego whatever compensation package Feinberg comes up with and stick with their lawsuit.


why???

I believe they will get more than if they become part of some stupid class action suit. the ONLY people who make out in those are the attorney's. FACT


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

R Salesman said:


> If that's the case, I think VW is going to see a surprising amount of folks forego whatever compensation package Feinberg comes up with and stick with their lawsuit.


Oh, man, if they fix them to make them emissions compliant I'm totally happy. A big worry I have is that it won't be possible, even with DEF, to make the older cars compliant (say, if they can't fit the DEF tank somewhere) But if they give me my expected 15 to 20 year service life back, I'm gold.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

I'll keep driving mine but I'm putting it all back to stock anyways in case a buyback actually does occur. I'll be satisfied if VW takes the car off my hands, not like I have another car to keep me by.


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

You'reDrunk said:


> why???
> 
> I believe they will get more than if they become part of some stupid class action suit. the ONLY people who make out in those are the attorney's. FACT


1. The more VW continues to drag its feet, the more upset people are going to become. What would have been an acceptable resolution three months ago is no longer acceptable today, for the majority of TDI owners I know. 

2. I don't believe VW can come up with a fix that doesn't compromise some other aspect of the car in some way -- whether it is fuel economy, power, cargo space, maintenance intervals, etc. The fact that the EPA rejected VW's first proposal only lends credence to this opinion. Regardless of what ends up being compromised, said compromise makes the car no longer what we were told we were buying.

3. Therefore, since the resolution has taken entirely too long, and it's unlikely any fix will not result in some sort of compromise, I don't think the majority of US customers will accept that and will instead push for buyback via class action.

You know, I can't help but wonder: if the ONLY people who benefit from class action lawsuits are attorneys, why would so many people so graciously participate in a class action lawsuit for the sole benefit of attorneys? Do you think large portions of the population are just genuinely generous and want to ensure lawyers can maintain their standard of living? This leads me to question if you and I have the same definition of "fact."


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

You'reDrunk said:


> while I can't say specifics....I do have it on good authority (in fact I had to take down a FB post about this). that VW is *NOT* buying back cars....repairs/retrofits will be made.
> 
> I can't say more, but it's from a very reliable source.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

R Salesman said:


> If that's the case, I think VW is going to see a surprising amount of folks forego whatever compensation package Feinberg comes up with and stick with their lawsuit.


Given Feinberg's quote was on his >90% acceptance rate for other major disasters, I think VW chose him _specifically_ for his track record in getting angry people to accept settlements. I'm sure part of Feinberg's office has some kind of data collection via surveys or something to determine what people feel is a fair settlement in various situations, otherwise he wouldn't have such a high acceptance rate.

Perhaps one of the holdups at this point however is that Feinberg might have made his previous statement in December based upon VW claiming they would reach agreement on repair terms with CARB & EPA in January, but the reality is that VW's repair proposal was rejected. I think most VW owners won't want to settle without even knowing what the accepted fix is. For example, why would you accept $2000 and agree to forego any further compensation if you don't know if the future fix is going to have a 3% impact on fuel economy versus having a 15% impact and result in greatly diminished resale value?

To me, it only seems possible to do a settlement once you know what the fix is. That is, unless the settlement is a buyback, at which point the future of the car is not your problem. A buyback seems like the only possible way to settle with owners without even having to come up with a fix at all.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

R Salesman said:


> why would so many people so graciously participate in a class action lawsuit for the sole benefit of attorneys?


Have you not paid attention to this thread? People do so because a) they are angry b) they want da benjamins.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielf...s-are-mostly-paid-to-do-nothing/#6a3db20763c0

the mayer brown study referenced by forbes: https://www.mayerbrown.com/files/up...ecember/DoClassActionsBenefitClassMembers.pdf


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

R Salesman said:


> You know, I can't help but wonder: if the ONLY people who benefit from class action lawsuits are attorneys, why would so many people so graciously participate in a class action lawsuit for the sole benefit of attorneys? Do you think large portions of the population are just genuinely generous and want to ensure lawyers can maintain their standard of living?


Back in the '90's my wife worked at the NY law firm that was able to whittle down the $5.3B compensation and punitive award against Exxon for the Valdez oil spill to a mere $507m (later upped by an additional $480 m by the feds for interest over the 2 decades during litigation), so I'd say the other party that benefitted by all the attorney wrangling were the defendants themselves. I think there are still quite a few industries in AK that haven't recovered from the spill, even to this day.

Back on topic, VW could do this, however, the damage to the brand, if they did so, would be very severe, unlike Exxon who could sell their oil to anybody with a short-term memory. VW won't have that luxury, so the move to use Feinburg was smart on VW's part. That, and the EPA,/CARB will hold their feet to the fire and ensure VW complies with the regulations.


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

Silly_me said:


> Have you not paid attention to this thread? People do so because a) they are angry b) they want da benjamins.
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielf...s-are-mostly-paid-to-do-nothing/#6a3db20763c0
> 
> the mayer brown study referenced by forbes: https://www.mayerbrown.com/files/up...ecember/DoClassActionsBenefitClassMembers.pdf


I'm well aware that attorneys benefit the _most_ from class action lawsuits. My point was to illustrate that attorneys are not the _only_ ones who benefit, as @You'reDrunk claimed.


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

You'reDrunk said:


> while I can't say specifics....I do have it on good authority (in fact I had to take down a FB post about this). that VW is *NOT* buying back cars....repairs/retrofits will be made.
> 
> I can't say more, but it's from a very reliable source.


Then why did VW already offer to buy back on used TDIs on dealers lots?

As a VW salesman at one of the largest in the country, I have heard the complete opposite from what your "reliable" source is saying.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

R Salesman said:


> My point was to illustrate that attorneys are not the _only_ ones who benefit, as @You'reDrunk claimed.


Well, if you get a $50 check from the settlement, you've technically benefited from the suit.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

shawshank redemption said:


> Then why did VW already offer to buy back on used TDIs on dealers lots?


As a salesman you don't understand that VW put a stop sale on cars that dealers own for their own cash or with outside financing and that this was likely nothing more than a gesture to free up their funds so they could get salable inventory on their lots to prevent going out of business?

It's not that hard to figure out that a consumer buy back and a dealer buyback on cars VW said they couldn't sell are two entirely different things.


It also gives VW the ability to retrofit them and put back onto the market without paying the warranty labor and parts markup they would to a dealer.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

shawshank redemption said:


> Then why did VW already offer to buy back on used TDIs on dealers lots?
> 
> As a VW salesman at one of the largest in the country, I have heard the complete opposite from what your "reliable" source is saying.


I'll either be right or wrong in a few weeks, but I fee comfortable in stating what I did, as the reliable source is reliable and in the know.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

You'reDrunk said:


> I'll either be right or wrong in a few weeks, but I feel comfortable in stating what I did, as the reliable source is reliable and in the know.


It may all depend on what EPA and CARB have to say. They did reject the first proposed solution.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

T5 Dave said:


> It may all depend on what EPA and CARB have to say. They did reject the first proposed solution.


correct, but the plan is repair/revise, not buyback


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

R Salesman said:


> You know, I can't help but wonder: if the ONLY people who benefit from class action lawsuits are attorneys, why would so many people so graciously participate in a class action lawsuit for the sole benefit of attorneys? Do you think large portions of the population are just genuinely generous and want to ensure lawyers can maintain their standard of living? This leads me to question if you and I have the same definition of "fact."


Class actions are set up so that the members of the class have to opt-out. The default if they do not respond to the notices is that they are included. Being the default option means that it is "chosen" more often than if it were not the default option.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> It also gives VW the ability to retrofit them and put back onto the market without paying the warranty labor and parts markup they would to a dealer.


I don't think VWoA employs any mechanics as it is just an import company. More likely VWoA will keep the cars in storage lots until a fix is approved, then auction them off to dealerships at whatever price they auction off for.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> I don't think VWoA employs any mechanics as it is just an import company.


They have numerous training facilities around the country with both engineers and technicians on staff.

With something this big they will likely require each dealer to send at least one tech for training on the retrofit to then go back and perform them at the dealer. Buying back these CPO cars would also mean that they have cars for them to use in that training. 


Expired at this point but I have been certified by both VW and Audi and been to a few different facilities. 


VW was only buying back CPO cars not general inventory, which is why dealers were willing to buy/trade higher mileage cars that would not be sold as CPO, they were always allowed to cell non CPO TDIs. VW could simply have refunded the dealers what they paid for the CPO, at that point no claims would have been made it would have cost nothing and let the dealers sell the car without he CPO, it cost them a whole lot more to buy back cars just to sit on them on a lot and then sell them back.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

T5 Dave said:


> Doesn't matter if the repair cost is more than what the car is worth, the onus is on VW to fix them because they were the ones that cheated. So as I stated, my preference is that they fix them because I want to keep them another 8 to 13 years.
> 
> Failing that, because VW was the one that cheated, their responsibility would be to replace the cars. Remember that CARB and EPA can make VW pay fines of $37,500 for each vehicle out of compliance *plus* $3750 for each of the faulty components, so I could posit that replacing the cars in Option #2 with new ones would actually be *cheaper* to VW if VW could get CARB/EPA to agree to replace the faulty cars with new ones as long as the fine is waived to the gov't in those cases.
> 
> Also, while I'd be 'free' to buy a used car in Option #3, so would 480,000 other TDI owners at precisely the same time, which means demand for used cars will spike and drive prices up. This will take me months to find two that were as well cared for as mine were.


There is no way the EPA is going to say "VW buyback the cars and we won't fine you the $37.5k" The EPA wants their money in fines. it going to be "VW pay 10k in fines per car AND buy each one back" Or something like that, if they don't come to an agreement on a fix.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

You'reDrunk said:


> why???
> 
> I believe they will get more than if they become part of some stupid class action suit. the ONLY people who make out in those are the attorney's. FACT



Who says you have to join one of the many class action suits? I could sue VW myself.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

AJB said:


> Who says you have to join one of the many class action suits? I could sue VW myself.


when the courts, allow a class action, a single action is too cumbersome, and usually will be added to the class action by the courts.


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

chris86vw said:


> They have numerous training facilities around the country with both engineers and technicians on staff.
> 
> With something this big they will likely require each dealer to send at least one tech for training on the retrofit to then go back and perform them at the dealer. Buying back these CPO cars would also mean that they have cars for them to use in that training.


They may also be using those cars to develop and test the possible fixes.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

AJB said:


> There is no way the EPA is going to say "VW buyback the cars and we won't fine you the $37.5k" The EPA wants their money in fines. it going to be "VW pay 10k in fines per car AND buy each one back" Or something like that, if they don't come to an agreement on a fix.


I'd think the EPA wants to impose the fine to use VW as an example for them or anyone else to never cheat that way again, ever. 

In 1998, the EPA slapped fines and conditions on Cummins, Detroit Diesel, Mack, Navistar, Caterpillar, Renault, and Volvo per the following (also for NOx emissions cheating):

[quote = http://articles.latimes.com/1998/oct/23/news/mn-35220 ]
In the largest civil penalty ever imposed for violations of an environmental law, seven large engine manufacturers agreed to pay $83.4 million in fines, $109.5 million to fund research into clean fuel projects, and at least $850 million to produce new, cleaner engines over the next few years.
[/quote]

Obviously VW never got the message from their experience and must learn it themselves the hard way. Be that as it may, note that the seven manufacturers were able to negotiate the settlement such that they could use the fine money to develop compliant future versions in lieu of paying the fines. So VW could, in theory, try and negotiate this with EPA/CARB. It all depends if CARB/EPA wants to get as many of the offending vehicles off the road quickly if they can't be fixed. And then it depends on VW if they'd even want to build new cars for everyone. It's just one option on the table.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> They have numerous training facilities around the country with both engineers and technicians on staff.
> 
> With something this big they will likely require each dealer to send at least one tech for training on the retrofit to then go back and perform them at the dealer. Buying back these CPO cars would also mean that they have cars for them to use in that training.
> 
> ...


I'm still trying to imagine the number of hours that a repair to the early TDIs will take, combined with the large number of these vehicles on the road (Probably over 400,000?) and the large number of techs (at least 1000) that will have to be trained to do the jobs. Frankly, I just can't see all the vehicles getting repaired in anything short of 2 years from the announcement of the fix. Maybe even 3 years if it takes a long time to produce the parts.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

spockcat said:


> I'm still trying to imagine the number of hours that a repair to the early TDIs will take, combined with the large number of these vehicles on the road (Probably over 400,000?) and the large number of techs (at least 1000) that will have to be trained to do the jobs. Frankly, I just can't see all the vehicles getting repaired in anything short of 2 years from the announcement of the fix. Maybe even 3 years if it takes a long time to produce the parts.


Wow, that quick?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

T5 Dave said:


> Wow, that quick?


You think 3 years to get them all fixed is quick? That is based on an 8 hour per car fix.


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

The service departments will likely have to hire techs to only work the recalls - all day, every day.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

spockcat said:


> You think 3 years to get them all fixed is quick? That is based on an 8 hour per car fix.


Sorry, forgot the /s

But actually, the fix has to be engineered and tested at the prototype level and verified it works. The production has to start once the verification proves the fix works. The parts have to be made and shipped to dealers or installation centers, the cars have to be brought in, and fixed as you point out. My initial guess was closer to 4 to 5 years for the whole process.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

spockcat said:


> I'm still trying to imagine the number of hours that a repair to the early TDIs will take, combined with the large number of these vehicles on the road (Probably over 400,000?) and the large number of techs (at least 1000) that will have to be trained to do the jobs. Frankly, I just can't see all the vehicles getting repaired in anything short of 2 years from the announcement of the fix. Maybe even 3 years if it takes a long time to produce the parts.


Yeah there's all sorts of options that have been thrown around. It's possible VW pitched a couple to CARB/EPA for the 2.0 and basically said:

A) How about we don't fix any of the cars, and just pay a fine and promise to sell 1 extra EV next year for every 100 TDIs we cheated on?
B) How about we don't fix any of the cars, pay a fine of $250/car, and promise to sell 1 extra EV for every 200 TDI's we cheated on?
C) How about we don't fix any of the cars, pay a fine of $100/car, and give away 1 free EV for every 1000 TDI's we cheated on to state and local governments?

In other words, VW may have basically said they don't know what to do with the LNT 2.0 cars and asked if they could just leave them alone, pay a fine and promise to sell some extra EVs instead. As far as I know, the EPA & CARB never disclosed exactly what the plan was that they rejected so it's all speculation.

OTOH, I'm still expecting a couple things in the next month or two:

I'm expecting (but could be wrong) that VW quickly developed an emissions legal calibration for all the 3.0 cars to make them emissions legal with just a software reflash. Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I think that is possible and/or has already been proved out in their lab and submitted. It may have worse responsiveness, lower RPM, and higher Adblue consumption, but if that's what it takes to get the cars legal, then I expect it will be quickly accepted for the 3.0 models as they all have SCR and VW complained that they weren't really cheating on those ones, they just used a wrong calibration on accident, or some such excuse.

I'm expecting (and could be wrong) that VW will ask for the SCR (Adblue) 2.0 cars to be broken out from the LNT 2.0 cars. I suspect that the 2.0 SCR cars will also be possible to fix with an ECU reflash and they're simply being thrown under the bus with the LNT 2.0's because they are both the same displacement and number of cylinders. If VW hasn't already asked EPA/CARB to break them out, they likely will do so somewhere along the line as clearly the technical fix will HAVE to be different for SCR & LNT cars since they came with different equipment to begin with.

That will leave just the ~300,000 or so 2.0 LNT cars to fix or otherwise deal with. It seems that many people are confident that the discussions do not include a buyback, and that the solutions also do not include owners ever having to give up their cars. This suggests that VW will be paying a LARGE fine in order to get EPA & CARB to accept leaving all those cars on the roads for the years or decades that they may last, and possibly having to supply a bunch of free EV lease deals to various government bodies to offset the NOx of the TDIs if they are left on the roads to die of natural causes in a decade or three, same has generally been the policy of the government whenever new emissions standards come out.


----------



## Lord Foul (Jun 7, 2013)

You'reDrunk said:


> correct, but the plan is repair/revise, not buyback


It'll be interesting to find out if that's just a management plan, or if engineers have actually figured out how to do it.

VW got in this mess because management had a plan to sell a low emission diesel at a low price, and engineers couldn't figure out how to do it. This might be the same thing all over again. I would think that if engineers had a solid plan on how to do this, getting EPA and CARB approvals would be simple.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

I still think VW is going to leave the cars alone and buy a bunch of carbon credits (or something similar) to offset the excess pollution caused by the EA189 engines.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

PlatinumGLS said:


> The service departments will likely have to hire techs to only work the recalls - all day, every day.


That is something I was forgetting about. Those 1000 techs will be experienced guys working all day every day on these vehicles. That means busy dealers will lose an experienced guy and have to hire one or two new guys who will also require VW training. 

This makes me think more and more these older cars won't be fixed. VW will either buy them back or get EPA agreement to leave them as is in exchange for some large fine and some other thing that benefits the environment.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> That is something I was forgetting about. Those 1000 techs will be experienced guys working all day every day on these vehicles. That means busy dealers will lose an experienced guy and have to hire one or two new guys who will also require VW training.



Many VW dealers are currently ghost towns.

Parts will not be instantly available and will likely be allocated in batches as they become available, so even if dealers wanted to do 5 a day they won't have the parts to do it. 

Many Many Many cars are in states that don't care and won't deny registration with people hours from a VW dealer on an out of warranty car that they aren't going to waste the time and those people won't be rushing in. 

Dealers will be busy and if that means that they need to actually hire back staff they have let go since this happened or hire new staff that won't be as big a deal as it seems, it will be a good thing.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

chris86vw said:


> Many VW dealers are currently ghost towns.
> 
> Parts will not be instantly available and will likely be allocated in batches as they become available, so even if dealers wanted to do 5 a day they won't have the parts to do it.


Gaah, that's right, this isn't like a "just-in-time" manufacturing facility where the parts need to show up at the assembly line only 10 minutes before they're installed on the car. (Some have actually run that close) In this case the complete kit must be put together and shipped to the installation facility (dealer or dedicated shop) and installed on the car whenever the customer happens to bring it by. And the latter is hard to plan for. They all may show up in the same week, or 8 months later. Puts a crimp in the planning process . . . .


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

chris86vw said:


> As a salesman you don't understand that VW put a stop sale on cars that dealers own for their own cash or with outside financing and that this was likely nothing more than a gesture to free up their funds so they could get salable inventory on their lots to prevent going out of business?
> 
> It's not that hard to figure out that a consumer buy back and a dealer buyback on cars VW said they couldn't sell are two entirely different things.
> 
> ...


Theres no stop sale on pre owned diesels....


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

shawshank redemption said:


> Theres no stop sale on pre owned diesels....


There was on the CPO vehicles.

Regular used vehicles on their lots that had not had the CPO submitted or were outside the requirements were able to be sold.


Edit for actual VW website info..:screwy:

https://www.vwdieselinfo.com/faqs/is-there-a-stop-sale-on-3-0l-tdi-models/



vw themselves said:


> Right now, we’ve put a stop sale on all 2.0L 4-cylinder TDI equipped vehicles (new *and certified pre-owned*) and we’re working with the responsible agencies as quickly as possible to obtain approval for the MY16 2.0L TDI vehicles.


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

chris86vw said:


> There was on the CPO vehicles.
> 
> Regular used vehicles on their lots that had not had the CPO submitted or were outside the requirements were able to be sold.
> 
> ...


A CPO can be reverted back to a regular used car and then can be sold.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

shawshank redemption said:


> A CPO can be reverted back to a regular used car and then can be sold.


This doesn't make your previous statement any less wrong.


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

chris86vw said:


> This doesn't make your previous statement any less wrong.


my previous statement is 100% true. there is no stop sale on used diesels. 

any dealer can sell any used diesel if they want to.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Can someone please notify me when to check this thread again once VW had a plan in place? The speculation and VW should do this and that is annoying. :banghead:


They've announced a 'generous package' will be available soon and all we can do is sit back and wait.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

shawshank redemption said:


> my previous statement is 100% true. there is no stop sale on used diesels.
> 
> any dealer can sell any used diesel if they want to.




Ok let's get this straight.

You claim to be a sales person but can't seem to differentiate between a normal used car and a CPO car.

Your first comment in this line of discussion was that Larry's claims could not be true because vw is buying back *used cars*.

VW is NOT buying back used cars they are ONLY buying back CPO cars, cars just used on a dealers lot that are NOT CPO are not being bought back.

CPO cars since very early in this mess possibly day 1 have been subject to a stop sale, you apparently didn't know this or simply again don't understand the difference between a used car and a CPO car.



If you want to start getting picky about wording understand that it YOUR post that was factually incorrect that started this line of discussion. 

Facts:
VW has a stop sale on CPO cars
VW is buying back CPO only cars

Two things you posted incorrect information about in this thread.


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

chris86vw said:


> Ok let's get this straight.
> 
> You claim to be a sales person but can't seem to differentiate between a normal used car and a CPO car.
> 
> ...


False. VW already bought back all of my dealers used TDIs. None of them were put through the CPO process.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

shawshank redemption said:


> False. VW already bought back all of my dealers used TDIs. None of them were put through the CPO process.


Wow then you know more then vw, Larry must be wrong, thanks for clarifying everything. :thumbup:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

chris86vw said:


> Wow then you know more then vw, Larry must be wrong, thanks for clarifying everything. :thumbup:


I'll check with my source, as I wasn't aware of these specific buybacks......I was speaking of cars still privately owned, and the inventory awaiting to be put back on sale. these are the ones being addressed in my earlier post.

I do know the dealers had all diesel inventory sold back to VWoA, or at least all carrying costs for inventory was covered by VWoA not the dealer (at least the dealer I am close with and they are one of the largest dealer networks in the USA, not just VW mind you).


----------



## csr67 (Oct 24, 2003)

Not sure what the solution will be, but I'm shocked my local VW dealer is still in business. I stopped by there yesterday to activate the "goodwill" cards for my 2016 Touareg, and the place was a complete ghost town at noon on a weekday. Their front lot where the new cars are parked was largely empty, maybe 20 units total compared to the normal 100. I was the only person at the service counter, and all the sales guys were just standing around.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

PnZrFsT said:


> I still think VW is going to leave the cars alone and buy a bunch of carbon credits (or something similar) to offset the excess pollution caused by the EA189 engines.


I guess I missed it, what happened to VW's proposal to fit a catalytic converter to the older TDI's?

http://www.engadget.com/2016/01/10/vw-emissions-cheating-fix/


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

g-man_ae said:


> I guess I missed it, what happened to VW's proposal to fit a catalytic converter to the older TDI's?
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2016/01/10/vw-emissions-cheating-fix/


Still no official announcement, but one of us seems to think this is the direction VW is headed. It all depends on how CARB and EPA react.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

g-man_ae said:


> I guess I missed it, what happened to VW's proposal to fit a catalytic converter to the older TDI's?
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2016/01/10/vw-emissions-cheating-fix/


That link is from January 10th when VW thought their proposal was about to be accepted. What actually happened on January 12th is that CARB & the EPA rejected VW's proposal. My guess is that it was going to make the cars cleaner, but not actually T2B5 compliant under real-world driving conditions, so they were sent back to try again. I believe CARB & EPA will rule on the 3.0 TDI plan pretty soon, which I am hopeful is a simple ECU fix and will be accepted. With that out of the way, they will possibly then get approval for a similar action on the SCR 2.0 models and leave just the LNT for whatever work is required to make them compliant, if that compliance proves possible at all. If not, then it's negotiation and settlement time for sure between VW, EPA, CARB, and the Canadian Environment body that is also planning to piggy-back on whatever CARB & EPA say works for them.


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

Catching up on a few pages, some thoughts:

Re: Dealers getting cars bought back: Not a sign of anything other than what they said in October (http://www.autonews.com/article/201...ers-a-price-guarantee-on-used-diesel-vehicles) they will be buying back inventory from dealers that have been on the lot X number of days. Doesn't seem to specifically say CPO, none, etc. I think it's entirely possible some dealers sold back their CPO inventory and kept the non-CPO so they could sell those and make more, while others said F it and sold all their inventory back, as long as that was an option.

Re: VW paying a fine (hefty or not) and the cars being allowed to stay on the road as is: Not going to happen. In the cases people like to point out (BP, GM, Toyota) they all payed a greatly reduced fine but still spent a LOT in fixes and compensation. That part is often left out when people are clinging to the idea their cars will be untouched. Will VW pay less than the 90B and growing? Absolutely

Re: Sources, buybacks, fixes. Not saying You'reDrunk is wrong, don't know him or anyone else on here, but I don't see why buybacks AND fixes can't be on the table. VW may unicorn up a fix after a year and a half of trying, but all said and done it would take years for some people. Mainly talking Gen1 here since I think Gen3 is probably a software fix, some comp, and some perks. Gen2 is probably in the gen3 group with a lengthier fix. Now, with older gen1's the fix will take too long (design, manufacture, complexity, number of vehicles to fix), owners will not be happy. First year ones, for example, are in year 7, most people target a 10 year ownership. By the time the fix rolls around to those owners they will already be at the high end of that projected ownership time. Keep in mind the value of their car has been going down the whole time, pre-scandal value will NEVER come back. Also there are MANY people who want out of their vehicle for various reasons (in my case it no longer suits my needs, I enjoy the car but it's not what I need anymore) - we have been trapped in this thing for 6 months now. Dealers won't touch it and private sales are far lower than they should be. You're essentially be asking folks like me to stay trapped for the remaining years and fix a car approaching it's end. I think it would be financially beneficial to VW to simply buyback the older cars at an attractive rate - when you factor in parts, training, time, warranty, loaner cars, etc etc (also rust warranty in the mean time). Problem for VW is I don't see how they can offer buybacks on one gen and not on the others. What they may be able to arrange is buyback across the board as an offer and repair/resell ones that are viable - as long as this reduces (but won't mitigate) their fines.

As I've said before: VW doesn't care one bit about me, anyone else or their situation - they don't even seem to care about their own reputation at this point. It comes down to how little they can pay to get out of this mess and how little criminal charges they will face. I have no doubt that's the entire hold up right now.

(also using buyback as generic for buyback/trade in and EPA as generic for EPA/DOJ/CARB/State/country/class action/anyone wanting a piece)


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

JohnNS said:


> Re: Sources, buybacks, fixes. Not saying You'reDrunk is wrong, don't know him or anyone else on here, but I don't see why buybacks AND fixes can't be on the table. VW may unicorn up a fix after a year and a half of trying, but all said and done it would take years for some people. Mainly talking Gen1 here since I think Gen3 is probably a software fix, some comp, and some perks. Gen2 is probably in the gen3 group with a lengthier fix. Now, with older gen1's the fix will take too long (design, manufacture, complexity, number of vehicles to fix), owners will not be happy. First year ones, for example, are in year 7, most people target a 10 year ownership. By the time the fix rolls around to those owners they will already be at the high end of that projected ownership time. Keep in mind the value of their car has been going down the whole time, pre-scandal value will NEVER come back. Also there are MANY people who want out of their vehicle for various reasons (in my case it no longer suits my needs, I enjoy the car but it's not what I need anymore) - we have been trapped in this thing for 6 months now. Dealers won't touch it and private sales are far lower than they should be. You're essentially be asking folks like me to stay trapped for the remaining years and fix a car approaching it's end. I think it would be financially beneficial to VW to simply buyback the older cars at an attractive rate - when you factor in parts, training, time, warranty, loaner cars, etc etc (also rust warranty in the mean time). Problem for VW is I don't see how they can offer buybacks on one gen and not on the others. What they may be able to arrange is buyback across the board as an offer and repair/resell ones that are viable - as long as this reduces (but won't mitigate) their fines.
> 
> As I've said before: VW doesn't care one bit about me, anyone else or their situation - they don't even seem to care about their own reputation at this point. It comes down to how little they can pay to get out of this mess and how little criminal charges they will face. I have no doubt that's the entire hold up right now.
> 
> (also using buyback as generic for buyback/trade in and EPA as generic for EPA/DOJ/CARB/State/country/class action/anyone wanting a piece)


Oh man, you guys that are facing life changes that need different vehicles are really screwed. I hadn't thought of that. In my situation my wife and I are perfectly fine with keeping the car until it's 15 to 20 years old.

Hopefully part of the Feinberg compensation package will ameliorate that.

And as far as VW caring about their reputation is concerned, I wouldn't jump to that conclusion just yet. They did give us the gift cards, after all. If they really didn't care then we'd never have seen those. I think they are concerned about their reputation, but they may not realize how badly it was damaged or what the practical methods are to keep their customers loyal. But we'll see.

Best of luck, I hope your car situation turns out well for you.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

JohnNS said:


> Re: VW paying a fine (hefty or not) and the cars being allowed to stay on the road as is: Not going to happen. In the cases people like to point out (BP, GM, Toyota) they all payed a greatly reduced fine but still spent a LOT in fixes and compensation. That part is often left out when people are clinging to the idea their cars will be untouched. Will VW pay less than the 90B and growing? Absolutely


Those were safety defects and concerned NHTSA not the EPA. The EPA has in the past fined manufacturers and allowed other remedies in lieu of recalls. I'm not saying this will be the case with VW but there is a precedent.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

T5 Dave said:


> Oh man, you guys that are facing life changes that need different vehicles are really screwed. I hadn't thought of that. In my situation my wife and I are perfectly fine with keeping the car until it's 15 to 20 years old.


Following a career change over the summer, I now commute less than 4 miles to work, negating the need for me to own a car that gets good mileage. In fact, I don't even need that nice of a car, I can use a company car to go anywhere that isn't the office. My last position I had to drive 60 miles/day to the office and back, plus customer site visits, so the TDI was perfect. In august/september, I was starting to plan to unload my car by the end of the year. So much for that :banghead:

Today marks 5 months of no ****ing clue as to what is going on, with no end in sight. VW is screwing the pooch by keeping everyone hanging. I have owned 6 VW's. My wife's Beetle lease is up in May, and it is not being replaced by another VW. My car, whenever I can get rid of it without losing my ass, is not being replaced by another VW. :thumbdown:


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

Hajduk said:


> Those were safety defects and concerned NHTSA not the EPA. The EPA has in the past fined manufacturers and allowed other remedies in lieu of recalls. I'm not saying this will be the case with VW but there is a precedent.


Toyota tangled with EPA in early 2000: http://articles.latimes.com/1999/jul/13/news/mn-55474 Faced with 60 billion in fines, total cost (including fixes, etc) was around 34 million (http://www.epa.gov/enforcement/toyota-motor-corporation-settlement)

EPA was all over BP, they also paid a lot fixing it all up.

GM was a safety one, true, but it's also one people like to use as an example.

My point, in the end, is that folks thinking VW will simply pay a fine and the cars will stay as is are probably as hopeful as people thinking they'll get a new car or better out of this.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Following a career change over the summer, I now commute less than 4 miles to work, negating the need for me to own a car that gets good mileage. In fact, I don't even need that nice of a car, I can use a company car to go anywhere that isn't the office. My last position I had to drive 60 miles/day to the office and back, plus customer site visits, so the TDI was perfect. In august/september, I was starting to plan to unload my car by the end of the year. So much for that :banghead:
> 
> Today marks 5 months of no ****ing clue as to what is going on, with no end in sight. VW is screwing the pooch by keeping everyone hanging. I have owned 6 VW's. My wife's Beetle lease is up in May, and it is not being replaced by another VW. My car, whenever I can get rid of it without loosing my ass, is not being replaced by another VW. :thumbdown:


I think owning a diesel vehicle is a detriment with a very short commute. I know my son's JSW TDI doesn't like short drives and infrequent trips. He lives about 1 mile from his lab and usually goes there by bike.


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

T5 Dave said:


> Oh man, you guys that are facing life changes that need different vehicles are really screwed. I hadn't thought of that. In my situation my wife and I are perfectly fine with keeping the car until it's 15 to 20 years old.
> 
> Hopefully part of the Feinberg compensation package will ameliorate that.
> 
> ...


Thanks!

We're fortunate in that our plans can be put off, not happy about it, but.. We went from driving 200km a day for work to maybe 300 a week for work (trips and shopping on weekends) Speaking of shopping: We also need more cargo space since my mother is wheelchair bound and it basically takes up the entire trunk - talking my folks shopping is a great work out! Load chair, take them, unload chair. Shop, load chair, load purchases. Next store! Unload purchases, unload chair, load purchases... shop.. unload purc... you get the idea  Our plan was to move in to an SUV for the winter because where we moved to the snow plowing is spotty and I'm tired of pushing when I shouldn't have to  and it would solve the storage space problem.

Knock on wood this winter hasn't been too bad. I'm not happy about being put off 6 months, and would be even more unhappy if a solution takes us to next winter. Crossing everything nothing happens to the car between now and then.. *knocks on wood*


----------



## TetonS4 (Oct 11, 2012)

JohnNS said:


> Toyota tangled with EPA in early 2000: http://articles.latimes.com/1999/jul/13/news/mn-55474 Faced with 60 billion in fines, total cost (including fixes, etc) was around 34 million (http://www.epa.gov/enforcement/toyota-motor-corporation-settlement)
> 
> EPA was all over BP, they also paid a lot fixing it all up.
> 
> ...


I could see the Toyota case (which I personally had no idea about) hold some precedent here with how VW will be handled, at least more so than the GM or BP case. I could very well see VW's actual fine be heavily reduced in favor of the money going towards other projects (much like Toyota did with the diesels) as well as the EPA requiring VW to speed up their EV roll-out. Then they would be faced with the following options:

1) Software fixes for those vehicles that can take it and an increased warranty of the emission hardware
2) Hardware + software fixes and an increased warranty
3) Any car that cant take the above will be bought back at whatever value.

If a car can be fixed with hardware and or software updates, no buyback will be offered.

Total cost of everything? No idea but I would assume the total costs of fixing/buybacks will heavily outweigh the EPA fine. The EPA isn't in the business of shutting down companies, I would think they'd much rather dole out the fine/settlement and then move on.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> Oh man, you guys that are facing life changes that need different vehicles are really screwed.


I bought my 2015 about a month before this broke, hadn't sold my 2012 and still haven't. 

Sitting on two of them making payments on both insuring both. 

Still not as angry, barely annoyed actually, as some people here who don't even own one or if they do aren't even impacted by the mess.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

chris86vw said:


> I bought my 2015 about a month before this broke, hadn't sold my 2012 and still haven't.
> 
> Sitting on two of them making payments on both insuring both.
> 
> Still not as angry, barely annoyed actually, as some people here who don't even own one or if they do aren't even impacted by the mess.


I know the feeling, I bought my second one last February


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> I know the feeling, I bought my second one last February


But as per this thread you have no plans to sell it nor where you actively selling either when the bomb dropped right? I actually went from trying to sell a 14k car to getting offers for 9k. 

So you can know the feeling of having two, you can know the feeling of thinking about it being valued a lot less. But since you had plans to run it into the ground the value is only really an issue of you if it was totaled tomorrow and insurance wanted to cut you a check at current value. I was stuck losing 5k on something actively for sale over a weekend. Really a huge difference in feeling.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

chris86vw said:


> But as per this thread you have no plans to sell it nor where you actively selling either when the bomb dropped right? I actually went from trying to sell a 14k car to getting offers for 9k.
> 
> So you can know the feeling of having two, you can know the feeling of thinking about it being valued a lot less. But since you had plans to run it into the ground the value is only really an issue of you if it was totaled tomorrow and insurance wanted to cut you a check at current value. I was stuck losing 5k on something actively for sale over a weekend. Really a huge difference in feeling.


Quite true. I wish there was something I could say to help.


----------



## grounded87 (Nov 5, 2002)

T5 Dave said:


> Quite true. I wish there was something I could say to help.


You could say you were sending him a check for $5K. :beer::laugh:


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

grounded87 said:


> You could say you were sending him a check for $5K. :beer::laugh:


What, I'm a lying politician now?


----------



## MGQ (Apr 16, 2002)

grounded87 said:


> You could say you were sending him a check for $5K. :beer::laugh:


Why is he sending him a $5k check? He really doesn't need a third TDI


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

*Volkswagen Memos Suggest Emissions Problem Was Known Earlier*


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/19/b...gest-emissions-problem-was-known-earlier.html




> FRANKFURT — Volkswagen internal memos and emails suggest that company executives pursued a strategy of delay and obfuscation with United States regulators after being confronted in early 2014 with evidence that VW diesel vehicles were emitting far more pollutants than allowed.
> 
> The documents, first reported on by the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag and since reviewed by The New York Times, could raise the potential penalties for Volkswagen based on laws requiring public disclosure of problems with potential to affect a company’s stock price. They suggest that top managers knew sooner than they have acknowledged that there was no way to bring tainted vehicles into compliance with air-quality rules, but led federal and California officials to believe otherwise.
> 
> The documents also raise the possibility that Martin Winterkorn, Volkswagen’s chief executive at the time, knew of possible emissions cheating by the company sooner than he has said….


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

I like how news outlets are hanging onto this and giving it as much attention as Trump. 

This 'they knew in 2014' deal was already known, back when all of this came to light. :roll eyes:

In the meantime, Mercedes will soon be under investigation too. 
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/02/18/mercedes-benz-diesel-bluetec-emissions-lawsuit/


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

aj4066 said:


> I like how news outlets are hanging onto this and giving it as much attention as Trump.
> 
> This 'they knew in 2014' deal was already known, back when all of this came to light. :roll eyes:
> 
> ...


Taking the whole thing a bit personally, no?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

aj4066 said:


> In the meantime, Mercedes will soon be under investigation too.
> http://www.autoblog.com/2016/02/18/mercedes-benz-diesel-bluetec-emissions-lawsuit/





lawyer in article said:


> Mercedes never disclosed that, when the temperature drops below 50 degrees, it prioritizes engine power and profits over people.


bahahahahahaha :thumbup:

That said, I'm going to sue VW for making me fat: http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20151207-the-air-that-makes-you-fat


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> I like how news outlets are hanging onto this and giving it as much attention as Trump.
> 
> This 'they knew in 2014' deal was already known, back when all of this came to light. :roll eyes:
> 
> ...


Didn't the Jeep Grand Cherokee use a MB diesel in the late 2000's? Will Jeep come under fire eventually? Or are these MB diesels 2010 and beyond?


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

chris86vw said:


> But as per this thread you have no plans to sell it nor where you actively selling either when the bomb dropped right? I actually went from trying to sell a 14k car to getting offers for 9k.
> 
> So you can know the feeling of having two, you can know the feeling of thinking about it being valued a lot less. But since you had plans to run it into the ground the value is only really an issue of you if it was totaled tomorrow and insurance wanted to cut you a check at current value. I was stuck losing 5k on something actively for sale over a weekend. Really a huge difference in feeling.


This is what happened to my sister. Looking to sell hers as three car seats an a dog are not going to fit in a JSW. Value plummeted overnight really. Now, she cannot do anything with it. Hers is a 2011 which I believe will have to be bought back as I believe that hers is in the not fixable category, right?


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

MCTB said:


> This is what happened to my sister. Looking to sell hers as three car seats an a dog are not going to fit in a JSW. Value plummeted overnight really. Now, she cannot do anything with it. Hers is a 2011 which I believe will have to be bought back as I believe that hers is in the not fixable category, right?


As a JSW owner who regularly has three kids in car seats and a dog in my car, I would submit that the capability is highly dependent upon car seat choice. With 3 Diono Radian RXTs (pretty much the smallest footprint carseat on the market), I can achieve this no problem.

My kids are outgrowing their car seats and transitioning to booster seats. Like your sister, I was intending to sell my JSW and move to a larger vehicle, then Dieselgate happened. Don't know your sister's situation, but thought I'd mention a solution that worked for me if it could help her prolong her utilization of the JSW until a resolution is reached.


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

R Salesman said:


> As a JSW owner who regularly has three kids in car seats and a dog in my car, I would submit that the capability is highly dependent upon car seat choice. With 3 Diono Radian RXTs (pretty much the smallest footprint carseat on the market), I can achieve this no problem.
> 
> My kids are outgrowing their car seats and transitioning to booster seats. Like your sister, I was intending to sell my JSW and move to a larger vehicle, then Dieselgate happened. Don't know your sister's situation, but thought I'd mention a solution that worked for me if it could help her prolong her utilization of the JSW until a resolution is reached.


It's good to know that the Radians fit in the Jetta wagon. As someone using them in a couple of cars and transitioning out of them, I'll warn you though - keep them in the Radians as long as possible. Booster seats are pretty much universally wider than the Radians, and once you have to reach the car's built-in seatbelts, 3 across suddenly becomes a much bigger issue. I'm using built-in boosters in the V70 to make it possible (with 1 Radian in the middle). Still a pain.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> In the meantime, Mercedes will soon be under investigation too.
> http://www.autoblog.com/2016/02/18/mercedes-benz-diesel-bluetec-emissions-lawsuit/


I was initially skeptical and dismissive, as I knew that Mercedes long asserted that they aren't using any defeat devices and I believe one of their vehicles was even evaluated for on-road performance and no issues were found. However, I now start to wonder if that on-road evaluation was during summer, where the sub 50 degree temperatures would not have been encountered. The lawsuit PDF contains more information:

https://www.hbsslaw.com/uploads/case_downloads/mercedes/2.18_mercedes_complaint.pdf



Lawsuit PDF said:


> Mercedes has programmed its BlueTEC vehicles to turn off the NOx reduction systems when ambient temperatures drop below 50 degrees Fahrenheit. *Mercedes has admitted that a shut-off device in the engine management of certain BlueTEC diesel cars stops NOx cleaning under these and other, unspecified circumstances.* On-road testing has confirmed that Mercedes’ so-called “Clean Diesel” cars produced NOx emissions at an average of 603 mg/km, which is 7.5 times the Euro 6 standard and 19 times higher than the U.S. standard.


The PDF further includes the context where they get the claim of Mercedes making an admission:



Lawsuit PDF said:


> However, Mercedes has programmed its BlueTEC vehicles with another “defeat device” that turns off the NOx reduction system when ambient temperatures drop below 50 degrees Fahrenheit.
> 45. As first reported in a February 2016 issue of German language magazine Der Spiegel, Mercedes has admitted that a shut-off device in the engine management of its C-Class diesel cars stops NOx cleaning under these and other, unspecified circumstances. Mercedes asserts, without providing details, that the shut-off is done to protect the engine.
> 46. So, while the Mercedes diesels with the BlueTEC engine are designed to pass official emissions tests, which are usually conducted at a temperature exceeding 50 degrees, the vehicles nonetheless emit far more pollution than government emissions standards in the United States permit when the temperature drops below 50 degrees.


So it appears this is brand new news, since he's quoting a February 2016 issue of Der Spiegel. It further includes actual lab test results, albeit a lab in Europe which was testing a European-spec Mercedes, not a US-spec model. I'm guessing the guy who filed wanted to be the first to the courthouse, since it seems they are applying for this to be made a nationwide class action lawsuit. Sucks for Mercedes if it's true that they switch off adblue at temperatures below 50 degrees, but OTOH, it seems all the data is from a European-spec model, and it's entirely plausible the US models do not have the temperature switch for Adblue injection to halt. It seems to me that's a huge gap in the fact checking to not verify that the same emissions programming is used for the US model as the EU model, especially when the guy who filed the lawsuit knows full well that Euro6 and Tier2 are different standards, so it's absolutely possible (likely?) that Mercedes uses different programming for the US model from the EU model.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

zhenya00 said:


> It's good to know that the Radians fit in the Jetta wagon. As someone using them in a couple of cars and transitioning out of them, I'll warn you though - keep them in the Radians as long as possible. Booster seats are pretty much universally wider than the Radians, and once you have to reach the car's built-in seatbelts, 3 across suddenly becomes a much bigger issue. I'm using built-in boosters in the V70 to make it possible (with 1 Radian in the middle). Still a pain.


just gotta say, i love my radian seats... we have 3 recaros and 3 radians (across 3 cars - mom, dad, grandma)... i wish they were all radians.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

spockcat said:


> Didn't the Jeep Grand Cherokee use a MB diesel in the late 2000's? Will Jeep come under fire eventually? Or are these MB diesels 2010 and beyond?


Why would Jeep come under fire for an engine they used in '07/'08 before Tier II Bin 5 emission regs were ever put in place by the EPA?

The current 3.0 diesel engines in the Jeeps/Rams are VM Motori, not Mercedes.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

MXTHOR3 said:


> Why would Jeep come under fire for an engine they used in '07/'08 before Tier II Bin 5 emission regs were ever put in place by the EPA?
> 
> The current 3.0 diesel engines in the Jeeps/Rams are VM Motori, not Mercedes.


The autoblog article didn't have any info on the model year MBs that were affected. So I wasn't sure. Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

Thanks for the tip on the Radian seats. I'm in the same boat and want to dump my TDI for something else.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> The PDF further includes the context where they get the claim of Mercedes making an admission:


this part was also interesting, buried somewhat in the middle...



lawsuit pdf said:


> 43. Unlike Volkswagen and Audi, which employed software that turns full emissions
> controls on only when the software detects that the vehicle is undergoing official emissions
> testing, Mercedes does not use a “defeat device” specifically designed to trick the test.
> 
> ...



there are temperature and altitude related boundary conditions for emissions performance.
where 50degF lands, i dont know, but they do exist.

next up, a lawsuit on behalf of all colorado residents: diesels engines pollute more in colorado winters than at sea level in the fall  :laugh:


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

Reuters said:


> Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:21am EST
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN0VS0W9
> 
> ...





You'reDrunk said:


> while I can't say specifics....I do have it on good authority (in fact I had to take down a FB post about this). that *VW is NOT buying back cars*....repairs/retrofits will be made.


Are we still sure that your "insider" has the right information?


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

PnZrFsT said:


> Are we still sure that your "insider" has the right information?


yes. he actually works for the company.....and I'd trust him over a news organization, even Reuters.

edit: who is "it" in the story, a magazine???


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

You'reDrunk said:


> yes. he actually works for the company.....and I'd trust him over a news organization, even Reuters.
> 
> *edit: who is "it" in the story???*


The EPA.

I'm not saying I don't believe you or anything, just wanted to point out that the word buyback has been coming out of a lot of mouths this week.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

I just can't stop thinking of Grandpa Simpson screaming EPA! EPA! EPAAAAAAA! in church.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> I was initially skeptical and dismissive, as I knew that Mercedes long asserted that they aren't using any defeat devices and I believe one of their vehicles was even evaluated for on-road performance and no issues were found. However, I now start to wonder if that on-road evaluation was during summer, where the sub 50 degree temperatures would not have been encountered. The lawsuit PDF contains more information:
> 
> https://www.hbsslaw.com/uploads/case_downloads/mercedes/2.18_mercedes_complaint.pdf
> 
> ...


They are still denying it:
*
Daimler says U.S. lawsuit over Mercedes diesel emissions is unfounded*



> FRANKFURT -- Daimler said a U.S. class action lawsuit alleging that its Mercedes-Benz diesel cars use a device that turns off pollution controls is unfounded.
> 
> Mercedes uses a shut-off device in its BlueTec clean diesel cars that causes the vehicles to violate U.S. emissions standards when run at cooler temperatures, according to a lawsuit filed in a federal court in New Jersey by consumer-rights law firm Hagens Berman Sobol Shapiro.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Meanwhile in VW news:

*VW offices raided by S. Korean prosecutors in emissions probe*



> SEOUL (Reuters) -- South Korean prosecutors searched the local offices of Volkswagen and Audi as part of a probe into an emissions case, a spokesman for VW's local unit said, confirming media reports.
> 
> Volkswagen and Audi face a flurry of legal complaints globally after Volkswagen Group admitted in September to falsifying U.S. emissions tests on some of its diesel cars.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lord Foul (Jun 7, 2013)

You'reDrunk said:


> edit: who is "it" in the story, a magazine???





PnZrFsT said:


> The EPA.


Sorry, but this "it" clearly refers to the subject of the story, which is Volkswagen.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

In today's news, it looks increasingly likely that many TDIs are unfixable and VW will have to offset them with EVs and public charging stations:

http://www.ibtimes.com/volkswagen-e...asked-produce-electric-cars-us-report-2316226



International Business Times said:


> Volkswagen Emissions Scandal: German Automaker Asked To Produce Electric Cars In US, Report Says
> By Suman Varandani @suman09 On 02/21/16 AT 4:47 AM
> 
> The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has asked Volkswagen to produce electric cars in the United States to make up for its rigging of vehicles with software to cheat emissions tests, Reuters reported Sunday, citing the German newspaper Welt am Sonntag. The automaker had admitted in September last year that it rigged emission tests by equipping diesel vehicles with "defeat device."
> ...


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf's article said:


> The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has asked Volkswagen to produce electric cars in the United States


That's just not fair, hasn't the VW customer suffered enough already?


----------



## KARMANN_20V (May 25, 2005)

AZGolf said:


> In today's news, it looks increasingly likely that many TDIs are unfixable and VW will have to offset them with EVs and public charging stations:
> 
> http://www.ibtimes.com/volkswagen-e...asked-produce-electric-cars-us-report-2316226


Everybody wins opcorn:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> That's just not fair, hasn't the VW customer suffered enough already?


Have you _driven_ a good electric car?


Thurl Ravenscroft said:


> They're great!


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Air and water do mix said:


> Have you _driven_ a good electric car?


Have you owned a VW with complicated(ish) electrics?


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

Silly_me said:


> Have you owned a VW with complicated(ish) electrics?


The new right of passage for VW owners; the CBL light.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Silly_me said:


> That's just not fair, hasn't the VW customer suffered enough already?


Hahaha, so true.


----------



## EcoTX (Aug 6, 2011)

My wife would lease an e-Golf tomorrow...if they were even available for sale within 1000 miles of us!
She loves the look of it ("it's a normal looking electric car" she says) and for her commute and driving it absolutely makes sense. Only problem is VW only sells them in a few states.
I'm fully behind an expansion of their EV stuff for sure, we would love an all electric small VW.
I've got the VW diesels for road trips and my long commute, now we just want a VW electric for short, cold commutes, probably not even 5k miles a year. (The worse kind of miles for an IC car)
Pleeaassseee VW, bring the all electric Polo over and make it and the e-Golf 50 state available. EPA won't be fighting you tooth and nail on that move.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> The new right of passage for VW owners; the CBL light.


----------



## vbora01 (Nov 17, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> In today's news, it looks increasingly likely that many TDIs are unfixable and VW will have to offset them with EVs and public charging stations:
> 
> http://www.ibtimes.com/volkswagen-e...asked-produce-electric-cars-us-report-2316226


I think that's a decent trade off. After all, the EV market needs a huge boost right now in the US. The lack of EV charging infrastructure is one of the many reasons why EV's aren't viable at the moment (along with range of current tech.) If they can't fix the problem, the idea of an offset is better than nothing. $18 billion, or whatever figure the fine is at now, is much better in a well-established R&D department if used correctly (one can only hope the right engineers there would sign on to the EV projects.) Hopefully this means recuperation for the affected customers who want a way out of the whole ordeal too.

They'd need more eGolfs with longer range versus the largely unsuccessful hybrid Jetta, that's for sure.


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

There are at least 2 things at play here:

1) Dealing with the current vehicles - either buyback or fix+compensation

2) The fines (DOJ/Carb/EPA). 

The EV request, I think, is likely a way for them to offset #2 and nothing to do with #1. EPA will not give a waiver on the current vehicles or grandfather them in, that makes no sense. Like other companies in the past VW will have to come up with a fix of some kind for the vehicles on the road as well as some kind of penalty for cheating in the first place.

IE: Rather than fining you 90B for the cheating and making you fix (buyback/repair/compensate) all the vehicles we're going to fine you 1B if you agree to fix (buyback/repair/compensate) current vehicles and build/sell more electric as well as put in charging stations.

VW is moving to electric like most, so it doesn't hurt them in the long run.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Fixing the vehicles would likely add $500 million to $1 billion or more to the US economy given the number of vehicles involved and a rough estimate of $1500 to $2000 per vehicle. I hope if the government lets VW off the hook on fixing them, they make them invest in something else that produces good jobs in the US. Fines don't necessarily go back into the economy and produce jobs.


----------



## crxgat0r (Dec 20, 2002)

I tried to do a google search and didn't really come up with any results.

Lets say I want to buy a TDi tomorrow, what could be the biggest negative effects for me be? Not being able to drive the car ever again if VW doesn't come up with a fix and the EPA deems them unfit to drive?


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

If the end game is the EPA revoking the certificate of compliance and making the car illegal to drive, VW will be obligated to buy them back. If you buy one now you're probably not going to be eligible for whatever compensation is deemed to be due to people who owned the car prior to the scandal becoming public.

Just don't overpay for the car if you are buying it now, and don't spend anything on modifications (because you are unlikely to be compensated for them).


----------



## crxgat0r (Dec 20, 2002)

My concern is that the EPA could seize the car and I'll be screwed out of whatever I paid for it. I'm not worried about VW paying me at all. 

It's just one of the many cars I'm thinking about purchasing in the near future (Audi A3 hatch).


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

crxgat0r said:


> My concern is that the EPA could seize the car and I'll be screwed out of whatever I paid for it.


I don't believe that has ever happened in American history, nor do I believe it's legal to seize legally registered cars without compensation under US law. Furthermore, it's a political issue and Obama doesn't want to go down in history as the man who stole half a million cars from hard-working Americans and didn't pay them for it. Bottom line: that will never happen. Cars will either get a fix, a waiver, or be repurchased by VW. Nothing will be seized without compensation.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

How would you be screwed out of whatever you paid for it if VW ends up having to pay you for taking the car back?

The EPA isn't going to just "seize" 400,000 cars. That ain't gonna be how it goes down. No way, no how. If the EPA revokes the certificate of compliance, the most likely scenario is that you will get a letter from VW in the mail requesting that you bring the car in and they cut you a check. The only way you could be "screwed" is if there is a deadline involved (which, IF this is what happens, would likely be a year from the time the settlement is announced) and you completely ignore it until you attempt to renew your license plate and find that your local licensing authority won't do it - and even *then* you would still have time to take the car to the dealer and have them cut you a check.

The EPA is not going to drive around with a portable car crusher and turn every TDI they see into a cube on the spot.


----------



## crxgat0r (Dec 20, 2002)

Well, because I bought the car after the announcement of "dieselgate" I could lose money if they think the car is worth $14k and I paid $18k. I would lose $4k if I'm forced to abide by their buyback stipulations. Currently, the car has a NADA retail value of $21k and a low trade-in at $15k.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

GoFaster said:


> How would you be screwed out of whatever you paid for it if VW ends up having to pay you for taking the car back?
> 
> The EPA isn't going to just "seize" 400,000 cars. That ain't gonna be how it goes down. No way, no how. If the EPA revokes the certificate of compliance, the most likely scenario is that you will get a letter from VW in the mail requesting that you bring the car in and they cut you a check. The only way you could be "screwed" is if there is a deadline involved (which, IF this is what happens, would likely be a year from the time the settlement is announced) and you completely ignore it until you attempt to renew your license plate and find that your local licensing authority won't do it - and even *then* you would still have time to take the car to the dealer and have them cut you a check.
> 
> The EPA is not going to drive around with a portable car crusher and turn every TDI they see into a cube on the spot.


No, but in the states that enforce emissions like mine, if the car is not modified to pass emissions the state won't let me re-register it, at which point it becomes an oversized papaerweight.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

crxgat0r said:


> Lets say I want to buy a TDi tomorrow, what could be the biggest negative effects for me be?


Baby seals will surround you and club you to death..... when you least expect it.



GoFaster said:


> If the end game is the EPA revoking the certificate of compliance and making the car illegal to drive, VW will be obligated to buy them back. If you buy one now you're probably not going to be eligible for whatever compensation is deemed to be due to people who owned the car prior to the scandal becoming public.


I seriously doubt if ordered to do a buy back that it will be prorated based on length of ownership, an asset is an asset.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

crxgat0r said:


> Well, because I bought the car after the announcement of "dieselgate" I could lose money if they think the car is worth $14k and I paid $18k. I would lose $4k if I'm forced to abide by their buyback stipulations. Currently, the car has a NADA retail value of $21k and a low trade-in at $15k.


So you purchased the car _after_ the stop-sale on all new and CPO diesels? I believe caveat emptor applies in this case. Most likely you'll be just fine one way or another, but you did state that you purchased the car after the scandal broke and the stop-sale was public knowledge.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> So you purchased the car _after_ the stop-sale on all new and CPO diesels? I believe caveat emptor applies in this case.


Can you still buy a takata airbag equipped car?


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

crxgat0r said:


> Well, because I bought the car after the announcement of "dieselgate" I could lose money if they think the car is worth $14k and I paid $18k. I would lose $4k if I'm forced to abide by their buyback stipulations. Currently, the car has a NADA retail value of $21k and a low trade-in at $15k.


The cars immediately plummeted in value after the story broke. I find it hard to believe you will end up with any kind of loss, though as others said, you purchased a damaged car after the news had broken. 

So yeah buyer beware.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

I think there's some irony if they make VW sell coal powered cars in order to offset the fact that they sold diesel cars.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I bought mine on Friday and the stipulations were you needed to be the registered owner on that Monday to apply for the package. I had no idea what dieselgate was!!??!!?!!


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

JohnNS said:


> There are at least 2 things at play here:
> 
> 1) Dealing with the current vehicles - either buyback or fix+compensation
> 
> ...


Exactly to say that they are requesting them to build EVs is evidence that they cannot be fixed is taking a running start to the jump to conclusions map and ending up out the window. Nothing in that article should lead anyone to believe that the request has anything to do with whether there is a fix or not.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

The Autonews version of the report:

*Volkswagen asked by EPA to make electric cars in U.S., report says*



> FRANKFURT (Reuters) -- U.S. authorities have asked Volkswagen to build electric vehicles in the United States as a way of making up for its rigging of emission tests, the German newspaper Welt am Sonntag reported.
> 
> The paper said the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency was asking VW to produce electric vehicles at its plant in Chattanooga, Tennessee, and to help build a network of charging stations for electric vehicles.
> 
> ...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

crxgat0r said:


> My concern is that the EPA could seize the car and I'll be screwed out of whatever I paid for it. I'm not worried about VW paying me at all.


It's like a 3-4 day cycle with this stupid crap..

Holy hell people first off you only need to go a few pages back to find the answer to this.

And it is on the EPA page about this.


This is literally the one thing in the whole mess there is an answer for!!!!


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> Exactly to say that they are requesting them to build EVs is evidence that they cannot be fixed is taking a running start to the jump to conclusions map and ending up out the window. Nothing in that article should lead anyone to believe that the request has anything to do with whether there is a fix or not.


I would agree that there is some jump to the conclusion that the cars can't be fixed in that news report. I think it isn't that it is technically impossible but rather economically unfeasible and the length of time required to do so doesn't make sense either as many of the early cars are approaching the end of their useful life. Maybe they are also considering all the pollution that will be created in the manufacturing and distribution of the new parts needed to fix the vehicles? There has to be a point at which it is smarter to leave the vehicles alone and give compensation to owners, fines to the government and remediation in other areas to help the environment.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

regarding the buybacks, someone mentioned you would bring the car in to a dealer and they cut you a check.
Wouldn't VW just issue a dealer credit for whatever the buyback amount was? Or is that not "right" and would have to let the customer choose what car they want vie a check which can be deposited in the customers account to be used however they see fit?


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

No ... If there is a buyback scenario they MUST provide a cash offer for the agreed-upon amount. You have to be "set free". They can NOT lock you in to buying another vehicle from the same manufacturer.

Whether they offer you an additional discount for a replacement vehicle of the same brand ... is totally independent of the mandated buy-out and is totally at their option to do so ... or not.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

good to know, thank you.
Now just gotta wait and see. 
IMO if there is a buyback, I can't see it being any less than MSRP. Just not fair to the consumer any other way. Way too many variables to take into effect-and especially backdate them to before the scandal came to light.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

T5 Dave said:


> No, but in the states that enforce emissions like mine, if the car is not modified to pass emissions the state won't let me re-register it, at which point it becomes an oversized papaerweight.


Sure. But if that comes to pass, VW will be obligated to buy the car back.

The only way you will be "screwed" is if you refuse to acknowledge letters that come in the mail AND you refuse to set foot in the VW dealership AND your reaction to your state refusing to renew your license plate is to leave your oversized paperweight in your driveway by refusing to let VW take the car back and thus not fulfilling the condition for VW issuing you a check (i.e. letting them take the car back).

I would consider any pain that arises in such a situation to be self-inflicted, though.

If there is a buyback, you take the car to the VW dealer and say goodbye to it, sign over the ownership papers, they hand you a check, you walk away. DONE. IF the situation ends up with a buyback, that's pretty much what will happen.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

PolishSasquatch said:


> good to know, thank you.
> Now just gotta wait and see.
> IMO if there is a buyback, I can't see it being any less than MSRP. Just not fair to the consumer any other way. Way too many variables to take into effect-and especially backdate them to before the scandal came to light.


Aaaand here we go again.

There is no flipping way that someone is going to get MSRP as a buyback on a 2009 Jetta TDI with 250,000 miles on it and it is in no way reasonable or fair if that were to happen. That person would have had 7 (or 8? or 9?) years of free driving on that car. Sure, THEY won the lottery, but it's not fair to everyone ELSE, like the guy a few posts up who just bought one the day before the scandal broke.

IF there is a buyback - and there is nothing at the moment indicating that this will be the case! - the FAIR number will be some percentage above the value of the USED car as of the day before the scandal became public. How that value is established is a good question but there are any number of recognized sources for values of used cars.

When Toyota was buying back rusty-frame Tacoma trucks, they used 50% above the KBB "excellent condition" value regardless of the actual condition of the truck (i.e. plug in the model year, plug in the mileage, plug in "excellent condition" regardless of the fenders flapping in the breeze and how torn-up the interior is, take the number it spit out, add 50% for good measure). Bear in mind that they only did this for trucks for which the proper OEM replacement part was no longer available. They did frame replacements on PLENTY of trucks that were clearly not worth the amount they spent doing it.

I would say that is on the high end of what could be expected here, but some percentage (unlikely to be 50%) above KBB as of the day the scandal broke would be reasonable and fair - and not a lottery win.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Lord Foul said:


> Sorry, but this "it" clearly refers to the subject of the story, which is Volkswagen.


except in the story, it explicitly says "Volkswagen was not immediately available for comment".


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

I should also add that if they end up fixing these cars, people who have done emission system deletes (DPF delete etc) are going to be in an interesting position.

It will be ENTIRELY reasonable if VW required that owner to buy and pay for any parts necessary to restore that car to emissions-legality that are over and above what VW's repair kit entails, whatever it may be. It's not VW's fault that this owner chose to make illegal modifications to that car. VW will not be allowed to let that car out of their workshop except in emissions-legal form.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

GoFaster said:


> Sure. But if that comes to pass, VW will be obligated to buy the car back.
> 
> The only way you will be "screwed" is if you refuse to acknowledge letters that come in the mail AND you refuse to set foot in the VW dealership AND your reaction to your state refusing to renew your license plate is to leave your oversized paperweight in your driveway by refusing to let VW take the car back and thus not fulfilling the condition for VW issuing you a check (i.e. letting them take the car back).
> 
> ...


The problem is if the buyback price is less than what I could get an equivalent car for, then I'm screwed because I expected (and planned) on keeping the cars for 15 to 20 years and therefore have no car payments. If I am forced to sell early then I have little chance of finding an equivalent replacement that was as well cared for as mine were for the price offered when 482,000 other TDI owners will be doing the same thing at the exact same time. This may push me into car payments I hadn't planned for if I replace the cars with new ones.

But it all depends on what the buyback price would be. If they hand me the keys to a new car and take the old one, I'll remain a loyal VW customer. If they give me market value and say 'tough luck, you're on your own' my wife and I will never come back to the brand, ever. My preference is that that fix my cars and let me get my 8 to 13 additional years out of them.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

GoFaster said:


> Aaaand here we go again.
> 
> There is no flipping way that someone is going to get MSRP as a buyback on a 2009 Jetta TDI with 250,000 miles on it and it is in no way reasonable or fair if that were to happen. That person would have had 7 (or 8? or 9?) years of free driving on that car. Sure, THEY won the lottery, but it's not fair to everyone ELSE, like the guy a few posts up who just bought one the day before the scandal broke.
> 
> ...


But "fair" may not keep customers loyal to the brand. And in the long run, what's more important to the bottom line? So if you were CEO, how much, if any would you be willing to pay (think of it as an advertising expense) to keep the customers coming back? Remember it's all about *perception *of the brand in the eyes of the customers, both current customers and potential new ones. What percentage would feel 'screwed' by your proposed offer? How many $$ are you willing to spend per customer to retain them after you've been caught screwing up so blatantly?


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

that T5 said. 

thing with toyota frames is, it was a consumer initiated lawsuit I believe-correct me if I am wrong. Which may not have the same pressure as a Govt mandated buyback. IE you can VOLUNTARILY have toyota buy your truck back, it is not being forced. Again, correct me if I am wrong. 

As t5 states, he bought the car new intending to keep it for 15 or so years. We bought ours used but also intended to keep it untill dead. 
We put 50-60k kms on the car since purchase in the one year (a bit less than a year before dieselgate). So value of something with 240kms is less than 180kms when we bought. I didn;t want to sell the car with 240kms on it. I purchased it at a higher price due to lwoer mileage. T5 Dave bought new, and woudl then be forced to look for a used car, or take up payments 

It seems the mindset of a potential buyback vehicle owner is thinking, if the car is deemed unusable, give me the full MSRP price and not the price of what it would be IF IT WAS STILL useable. Someone mentioned, an asset is still an asset. 
Not trying to get into an argument, just sharing my way of thinking. Call me dumb, it won't offend me. 
Just wondering Go Faster- do you own one of these 2.0 LNT equipped cars yourself?

Mindset if differnt for someone that doesnt own one, thinking that the owners are "winning the lottery" by getting cashed out at MSRP. 
If thats how you want to view it-fine. For the owners it is a huge inconvenience and absolutely not their fault for purchasing a car they intended to keep for a long long time, and not have to deal with something with lower MPG and unknown history (gas powered vehicle)


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

PolishSasquatch said:


> that T5 said.
> 
> thing with toyota frames is, it was a consumer initiated lawsuit I believe-correct me if I am wrong. Which may not have the same pressure as a Govt mandated buyback. IE you can VOLUNTARILY have toyota buy your truck back, it is not being forced. Again, correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> ...


None of this has squat to do with getting full value for what is now a used, often times, well-used, car. The owner's intentions regarding length of ownership is a non-factor. :thumbup:


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

PolishSasquatch said:


> Just wondering Go Faster- do you own one of these 2.0 LNT equipped cars yourself?
> 
> Mindset if differnt for someone that doesnt own one, thinking that the owners are "winning the lottery" by getting cashed out at MSRP.
> If thats how you want to view it-fine. For the owners it is a huge inconvenience and absolutely not their fault for purchasing a car they intended to keep for a long long time, and not have to deal with something with lower MPG and unknown history (gas powered vehicle)


I don't, but my sister does, and a good friend does.

Neither my sister nor my buddy have unrealistic expectations. If they get market value (as of last September) plus a reasonable percentage to cover their transaction costs and aggravation, they're good with it.

The "percentage above MSRP" is intended to cover your (otherwise unrecoverable) taxes and transaction costs for finding another vehicle plus something for the aggravation involved. Your current vehicle is a "used" car. The buyback value should be enough to buy another "used" car of comparable age and mileage and you will be no worse off in terms of payments, etc.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

PolishSasquatch said:


> that T5 said.
> 
> thing with toyota frames is, it was a consumer initiated lawsuit I believe-correct me if I am wrong. Which may not have the same pressure as a Govt mandated buyback. IE you can VOLUNTARILY have toyota buy your truck back, it is not being forced. Again, correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> ...



If your car is wrecked while parked tomorrow, is your insurance company going to give you MSRP for your HUGE inconvenience?


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

PolishSasquatch said:


> that T5 said.
> 
> thing with toyota frames is, it was a consumer initiated lawsuit I believe-correct me if I am wrong. Which may not have the same pressure as a Govt mandated buyback. IE you can VOLUNTARILY have toyota buy your truck back, it is not being forced. Again, correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> ...


This is delusional thinking. It doesn't matter at all what you wanted to do with the car, what you intended to with it, or anything else. The only thing that matters is the pre scandal value of your car with some additional value for the trouble.

If you love diesels so much go buy a used Cruz diesel. Or buy anything else you want to with your fair market value for your Jetta.


All this talk about well I was going to drive it for 300k miles is pointless. You are losing an asset, you will be paid it's value plus some additional amount, and that's fair.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

spockcat said:


> If your car is wrecked while parked tomorrow, is your insurance company going to give you MSRP for your HUGE inconvenience?


no, they wouldn't-they would give current market value, which is affected by the scandal. This is a car that should not have been sold in the American market place period, for not being able to meet emission standards.
and yes it would be a HUGE inconvenience.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

PolishSasquatch said:


> it would be a HUGE inconvenience.


Puh-lease, a HUGE inconvenience? Maybe, if you didn't have 3 other cars to choose from, but as it is, not huge in the least. Just aggravating. :thumbup:


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

PolishSasquatch said:


> no, they wouldn't-they would give current market value, which is affected by the scandal. This is a car that should not have been sold in the American market place period, for not being able to meet emission standards.
> and yes it would be a HUGE inconvenience.


Which part is the huge inconvenience?


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

GoFaster said:


> Aaaand here we go again.
> 
> There is no flipping way that someone is going to get MSRP as a buyback on a 2009 Jetta TDI with 250,000 miles on it and it is in no way reasonable or fair if that were to happen. That person would have had 7 (or 8? or 9?) years of free driving on that car. Sure, THEY won the lottery, but it's not fair to everyone ELSE, like the guy a few posts up who just bought one the day before the scandal broke.
> 
> ...


Only thing I'll disagree with here is it not being a lottery win - it would be if it were anything above best KBB (pre-scandal) since that's way more than most would get in any normal situation. Full MSRP buyback would be like.. powerball winnings 

The buyback would have to be substantial enough that most owers would turn over the keys.


----------



## crxgat0r (Dec 20, 2002)

T5 Dave said:


> But "fair" may not keep customers loyal to the brand. And in the long run, what's more important to the bottom line? So if you were CEO, how much, if any would you be willing to pay (think of it as an advertising expense) to keep the customers coming back? Remember it's all about *perception *of the brand in the eyes of the customers, both current customers and potential new ones. What percentage would feel 'screwed' by your proposed offer? How many $$ are you willing to spend per customer to retain them after you've been caught screwing up so blatantly?


Fair for me would be purchase price, taxes and fees. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

JohnNS said:


> The buyback would have to be substantial enough that most owers would turn over the keys.


VW hired Kenneth Feinberg to manage the process and he was quoted as having a 90% acceptance rate for the settlement as his goal.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

crxgat0r said:


> Fair for me would be purchase price, taxes and fees.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah I wouldn't hold your breath waiting on that one.


----------



## crxgat0r (Dec 20, 2002)

If it was purchased used this month and buy back happens four months from now I think that would be fair. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

vwwtchr said:


> Yeah I wouldn't hold your breath waiting on that one.


Obviously with VW, we shouldn't hold our breath on _anything_.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Why would people who purchased a TDI *after* the scandal be entitled to anything?


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

crxgat0r said:


> Fair for me would be purchase price, taxes and fees.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


not likely unless you bought a new 2015, in July. then i could see it... MAYBE.

purchase price can be fudged way too easily.
especially private party.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

GoHomeBroke said:


> Why would people who purchased a TDI *after* the scandal be entitled to anything?


IMO they shouldnt.
they bought with full knowledge. they were taking advantage of the depressed values to buy cheap. and LIKELY trying to get in so that they could make a profit on any buyback or fix/goodwill type program.

the only way i can see them get anything would be if the govt forced a buy back. in which case they should get whatever market value gets mapped out.
they would likely come out ahead if this happens.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

dunhamjr said:


> IMO they shouldnt.
> they bought with full knowledge. they were taking advantage of the depressed values to buy cheap. and LIKELY trying to get in so that they could make a profit on any buyback or fix/goodwill type program.
> 
> the only way i can see them get anything would be if the govt forced a buy back. in which case they should get whatever market value gets mapped out.
> they would likely come out ahead if this happens.


I'd imagine that the buyback, if forced, would/should require that the car haven been bought prior to the scandal being made public. Anyone who bought it after the scandal broke should be told to **** off, cause they knew what why the cars were being sold so cheap.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

GoHomeBroke said:


> Why would people who purchased a TDI *after* the scandal be entitled to anything?


The only thing TDI owners were entitled to were teh $500 gift cards. Any mandatory repairs or buy backs are not an entitlement they are an effort laugh by EPA to remove the over-pollution of the 'illegal' diesels. Anyone with such a vehicle, regardless of buy date, will be subject to whatever mandatory requirements/efforts VW has pressed against them.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Silly_me said:


> The only thing TDI owners were entitled to were teh $500 gift cards. Any mandatory repairs or buy backs are not an entitlement they are an effort laugh by EPA to remove the over-pollution of the 'illegal' diesels. Anyone with such a vehicle, regardless of buy date, will be subject to whatever mandatory requirements/efforts VW has pressed against them.


So if someone paid $14k for a TDI post scandal they should get pre scandal money for it?


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

GoHomeBroke said:


> So if someone paid $14k for a TDI post scandal they should get pre scandal money for it?


i dont think they SHOULD get it, but they MIGHT get it.

i doubt VW would go to the extra admin efforts needed to determine who purchased pre / post official announcement.
yeah doing so could save them money. but it would cost them a good deal to sort through all the paperwork.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

GoHomeBroke said:


> So if someone paid $14k for a TDI post scandal they should get pre scandal money for it?


Getting into the level of Amortization of who owned what when and paid what just seems overly complicated for what essentially is an asset that can easily have a monetary value attached to it . You have a certain m.y. certain trim certain mileage car, it should be worth a certain amount in a buyback. 

Unlike the BP spill you aren't relying on your TDI to support your family (any car can get you to work), no VW owner needs to be made whole, regardless of what you guys may think, its a car, not a family member, a career, an appendage, a dependent, a religion.......


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> i doubt VW would go to the extra admin efforts needed to determine who purchased pre / post official announcement.
> yeah doing so could save them money. but it would cost them a good deal to sort through all the paperwork.


Not extra they already have as the current goodwill package is only for people who owned the vehicle before the scandal broke.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> Not extra they already have as the current goodwill package is only for people who owned the vehicle before the scandal broke.


Incorrect. I purchased my TDI Golf after the scandal broke and I still got the $1000 Goodwill Package because the rules stated the vehicle must be registered prior to the Goodwill Date, not the scandal date.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> Getting into the level of Amortization of who owned what when and paid what just seems overly complicated for what essentially is an asset that can easily have a monetary value attached to it . You have a certain m.y. certain trim certain mileage car, it should be worth a certain amount in a buyback.
> *
> Unlike the BP spill you aren't relying on your TDI to support your family (any car can get you to work), no VW owner needs to be made whole, regardless of what you guys may think, its a car, not a family member, a career, an appendage, a dependent, a religion.*......


QFT :thumbup:


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

Silly_me said:


> Unlike the BP spill you aren't relying on your TDI to support your family (any car can get you to work), no VW owner needs to be made whole, regardless of what you guys may think, its a car, not a family member, a career, an appendage, a dependent, a religion.......


GASP!? /holds hand to chest like a proper Southern lady 

I never.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

Getting what you paid back isn't winning the lottery, it's getting your money back. That's the minimum it would take for me to give up my car. I can't replace it with a comparable vehicle for any amount of money without buying a car and having a drive train swap performed.


----------



## crxgat0r (Dec 20, 2002)

I'm not buying the car to make any type of money. I want the car because i liked my 09 JSW TDi and I want an A3 version. I just don't want to be potentially forced to sell it at a loss because it had to be off the road. 

I guess I'll take that fight if that happens. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

grawk said:


> Getting what you paid back isn't winning the lottery, it's getting your money back. That's the minimum it would take for me to give up my car. I can't replace it with a comparable vehicle for any amount of money without buying a car and having a drive train swap performed.


Then if they do a buyback you might find yourself in the 10% who refuse the buyback offer and something else takes place. For all we know, at that point nothing happens - you keep your car and simply don't get paid. It might be harder to get repair parts and support for those cars though, since a buyback would greatly cull the number of models in the field and thus the need for producing repair parts.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

grawk said:


> Getting what you paid back isn't winning the lottery, it's getting your money back.


Wait, getting your money back is the same as getting your money back? If your other 30 posts over almost 14 years were this profound, we appreciate the pace. :sly:


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

It's not supposed to be profound. It's just a counter to the hyperbole. This is comparable to a lemon law claim. The lemon law remedy is a reasonable basis for expectations.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> GASP!? /holds hand to chest like a proper Southern lady
> 
> I never.


Please note, my comments are in no way a description of air cooled VWs, I can't afford to fend off those loonies, er, I mean deeply committed to Volkswagocism.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

grawk said:


> It's not supposed to be profound. It's just a counter to the hyperbole. This is comparable to a lemon law claim. The lemon law remedy is a reasonable basis for expectations.


You're probably getting above the EPA's mileage rating like most TDi owners and have no idea what any "fix" may do one way or another. No TDi owner in the planet would've known this was an issue had said scandal not broken as the cars functioned as transportation as advertised and intended. Meaning this has no teeth as far as any lemon-law is concerned. 

And to say your post was any counter to, and not one of the best examples of, hyperbole is ridiculous. Your Beetle is a depreciating asset. Your requirements to be made whole are the definition of hyperbole.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

crxgat0r said:


> I'm not buying the car to make any type of money. I want the car because i liked my 09 JSW TDi and I want an A3 version. I just don't want to be potentially forced to sell it at a loss because it had to be off the road.
> 
> I guess I'll take that fight if that happens.
> 
> ...


What loss? They will probably offer pre scandal retail plus 10-20% over. Take the money and buy another car.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> You're probably getting above the EPA's mileage rating like most TDi owners and have no idea what any "fix" may do one way or another. No TDi owner in the planet would've known this was an issue had said scandal not broken as the cars functioned as transportation as advertised and intended. Meaning this has no teeth as far as any lemon-law is concerned.
> 
> And to say your post was any counter to, and not one of the best examples of, hyperbole is ridiculous. Your Beetle is a depreciating asset. Your requirements to be made whole are the definition of hyperbole.


We'll see what the buyback ends up being. I think a forced buyout due to manufacturer malfeasance is similar to a lemon law buyback. You think they're going to give fair market value as if a toilet seat fell from the sky and destroyed the cars. Where this ends up remains to be seen.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

grawk said:


> We'll see what the buyback ends up being. I think a forced buyout due to manufacturer malfeasance is similar to a lemon law buyback. * You think they're going to give fair market value as if a toilet seat fell from the sky and destroyed the cars.* Where this ends up remains to be seen.


I'm not sure you understand the meaning of hyperbole and your last sentence is what makes it so. opcorn:


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> I'm not sure you understand the meaning of hyperbole and your last sentence is what makes it so. opcorn:


no, the last sentence made it funny. It was a Dead Like Me reference. Any way your car is totalled is the same. That one was amusing.


----------



## BeBop! (Jun 18, 2009)

grawk said:


> no, the last sentence made it funny. It was a Dead Like Me reference. Any way your car is totalled is the same. That one was amusing.


----------



## Lord Foul (Jun 7, 2013)

You'reDrunk said:


> except in the story, it explicitly says "Volkswagen was not immediately available for comment".


Would it help if I spelled the "it" out fully like the article does, i.e. top managers at Volkswagen as reported by a german monthly? I'll concede that this isn't quite the same as Volkswagen itself, but it's also not at all the EPA, which is the point I was making.


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

grawk said:


> I think there's some irony if they make VW sell coal powered cars in order to offset the fact that they sold diesel cars.


Except mine would be water-powered.


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

R Salesman said:


> Obviously with VW, we shouldn't hold our breath on _anything_.


Probably best to hold one's breath when near a VW TDI with its engine running….


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

Bunch of whiney sandy vaginas in here


----------



## fknlo (Jun 30, 2004)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> You're probably getting above the EPA's mileage rating like most TDi



Nope! I've gotten the EPA highway rating of 42mpg 3 times over 72,000 miles!


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Uberhare said:


> Incorrect. I purchased my TDI Golf after the scandal broke and I still got the $1000 Goodwill Package because the rules stated the vehicle must be registered prior to the Goodwill Date, not the scandal date.


Ah right yes knew that wasn't thinking :thumbup:


The point still was they are more than capable with little to know work of determining a date of ownership.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

grawk said:


> We'll see what the buyback ends up being.



On your 2014? your chances are likely well below 0 so why even get your panties in a bunch over it.

Also injecting more urea won't hurt your mileage if you already have a CR150.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

fknlo said:


> Nope! I've gotten the EPA highway rating of 42mpg 3 times over 72,000 miles!


:screwy: My combined average is close to that life time on my 2012 wagon.. with a roof rack over the 82k miles it has.

2 bikes on the roof, dogs in the back, hatch full and doing 70mph+ avg speed I could still get EPA figures. 


Your figures are certainly not normal.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

cpermd said:


> 2013 VW Golf TDI MT Mine
> 2007 Jeep GC CDI Hers
> 2002 Ram Cummins Ours and not stock at al




I don't know you but I like your style :thumbup:


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

fknlo said:


> Nope! I've gotten the EPA highway rating of 42mpg 3 times over 72,000 miles!


I hit 6,000 miles this morning and just looked at "extended mileage" which covers almost all of that. 

47.2mpg and way more than half of my driving is on city streets in Phoenix so no hills but lots of AC running.

I think that's better than EPA estimate.


----------



## lorge1989 (Sep 3, 2008)

chris86vw said:


> :screwy: My combined average is close to that life time on my 2012 wagon.. with a roof rack over the 82k miles it has.
> 
> 2 bikes on the roof, dogs in the back, hatch full and doing 70mph+ avg speed I could still get EPA figures.
> 
> ...


Lifetime avg on my TDI wagon is about 35-37MPG. In line with EPA I would think, definitely not over. Depends on the climate you live in.


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

People that are talking about getting fair market value are delusional. A used car is a used car. The second you drive off the dealership lot it has already lost value. Why would you get any full value? It doesn't matter if you planned on keeping the car 10 years, that's your issue not the dealership or companys issue. Cars are not investments, they are depreciating piles of plastic and metal.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

Car Problems said:


> People that are talking about getting fair market value are delusional. A used car is a used car. The second you drive off the dealership lot it has already lost value.


Do you understand what "fair-market value" means?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Vicelord said:


> Do you understand what "fair-market value" means?


Obviously he doesn't. Sadly, this doesn't exist for VW TDIs any longer. 



> Fair market value (FMV) is an estimate of the market value of a property, based on what a knowledgeable, willing, and unpressured buyer would probably pay to a knowledgeable, willing, and unpressured seller in the market.


The people who think they are going to get back what they paid for the vehicles even after years of use are the ones who are delusional.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> On your 2014? your chances are likely well below 0 so why even get your panties in a bunch over it.
> 
> Also injecting more urea won't hurt your mileage if you already have a CR150.


I'm not worried about anything. Just the only way I'm giving up my car is if I get a price I feel is fair. Keeping my car, piss powered or not, is the goal. But I think the odds of them retrofitting the beetles is really low, because there are so few of them out there.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

grawk said:


> I'm not worried about anything. Just the only way I'm giving up my car is if I get a price I feel is fair. Keeping my car, piss powered or not, is the goal. But I think the odds of them retrofitting the beetles is really low, because there are so few of them out there.


Does your car already have an ad-blue system on it?


----------



## JackStraw79 (Aug 10, 2015)

Car Problems said:


> People that are talking about getting fair market value are delusional. A used car is a used car. The second you drive off the dealership lot it has already lost value. Why would you get any full value? It doesn't matter if you planned on keeping the car 10 years, that's your issue not the dealership or companys issue. Cars are not investments, they are depreciating piles of plastic and metal.


It's unfortunate that you probably felt like you were pretty smart while typing up that post


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

JackStraw79 said:


> It's unfortunate that you probably felt like you were pretty smart while typing up that post


All the people talking about a full refund need to wake up. You will be made whole if there is a buy back with probably full retail for your year and model at pre diesel gate prices plus 10-15%. That makes you made whole. You can then go buy any other car you want, used or new.

All the other whining about full refunds, or how you were going to keep it 10 years is irrelevant, and has no bearing on reality.

Reality is the buyback program they will implement. Or you can try and sue and see what you get. Good luck with that.


----------



## SK VeeDubR (Apr 18, 2008)

JackStraw79 said:


> It's unfortunate that you probably felt like you were pretty smart while typing up that post


:thumbdown:



vwwtchr said:


> All the people talking about a full refund need to wake up. You will be made whole if there is a buy back with probably full retail for your year and model at pre diesel gate prices plus 10-15%. That makes you made whole. You can then go buy any other car you want, used or new.
> 
> All the other whining about full refunds, or how you were going to keep it 10 years is irrelevant, and has no bearing on reality.
> 
> Reality is the buyback program they will implement. Or you can try and sue and see what you get. Good luck with that.


^^ He's right. 

Amazed at the amount of ignorance regarding this subject from he general population. Oh, and how much whining has taken place over the very recent recall of what was it? 1.2 million totyotas over seatbelt failures? But that's none of my business (insert Kermit meme here)


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

spockcat said:


> Does your car already have an ad-blue system on it?


No


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

vwwtchr said:


> All the people talking about a full refund need to wake up. You will be made whole if there is a buy back with probably full retail for your year and model at pre diesel gate prices plus 10-15%. That makes you made whole. You can then go buy any other car you want, used or new.
> 
> All the other whining about full refunds, or how you were going to keep it 10 years is irrelevant, and has no bearing on reality.
> 
> Reality is the buyback program they will implement. Or you can try and sue and see what you get. Good luck with that.


FMV of my car when the scandal came to light was probably about 90% of msrp, so I am probably one of the very few to reasonably expect his money back from the original purchase if the car would be bought back.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

vwwtchr said:


> All the people talking about a full refund need to wake up. You will be made whole if there is a buy back with probably full retail for your year and model at pre diesel gate prices plus 10-15%. That makes you made whole. You can then go buy any other car you want, used or new.
> 
> All the other whining about full refunds, or how you were going to keep it 10 years is irrelevant, and has no bearing on reality.
> 
> Reality is the buyback program they will implement. Or you can try and sue and see what you get. Good luck with that.


Yup. If my '11 is bought back at a price that would allow me to get into a used Volt (like this '14 CPO with 12k http://www.quirkchevy.com/inventory/2014-chevrolet-volt-prem-fwd-4dr-car-1g1rd6e41eu138357 )for very little out of my pocket and I keep it 5 years, then i will have gotten the 10 yrs i wanted out of my TDI with only 5 years of payments.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Vicelord said:


> FMV of my car when the scandal came to light was probably about 90% of msrp, so I am probably one of the very few to reasonably expect his money back from the original purchase.


You have a CR150 with adblue which wasn't even tested, it is an updated system to what is in the passat which barely failed the not actually tested by the EPA and so far I don't believe is any proof that it won't pass the current EPA tests is simply has the defeat written into the software. 

While you and I with our 2015s bought just weeks before this broke would be on the high side for FMV since they were virtually brand new, there is in my opinion a 0% chance of a buy back. If it is even a high of 1% I wouldn't waste a single calorie on running your brain thinking about the what ifs.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Vicelord said:


> FMV of my car when the scandal came to light was probably about 90% of msrp, *so I am probably one of the very few to reasonably expect his money back* from the original purchase.


Considering the buyback, if instituted, is likely going to be limited to older generations of the 2.0 TDI, I highly doubt it.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

chris86vw said:


> You have a CR150 with adblue which wasn't even tested, it is an updated system to what is in the passat which barely failed the not actually tested by the EPA and so far I don't believe is any proof that it won't pass the current EPA tests is simply has the defeat written into the software.
> 
> While you and I with our 2015s bought just weeks before this broke would be on the high side for FMV since they were virtually brand new, there is in my opinion a 0% chance of a buy back. If it is even a high of 1% I wouldn't waste a single calorie on running your brain thinking about the what ifs.


I was merely making a point about guys expecting to have their full purchase price refunded.

I still do not want my car to go anywhere nor do I believe it will.


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

Vicelord said:


> FMV of my car when the scandal came to light was probably about 90% of msrp, so I am probably one of the very few to reasonably expect his money back from the original purchase if the car would be bought back.


How do you figure 90%? 

You didnt receive a ~10% discount off of msrp when you purchased?


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

shawshank redemption said:


> How do you figure 90%?
> 
> You didnt receive a ~10% discount off of msrp when you purchased?


I had the car for about a month so I'm just guessing that it was probably worth 90% of it's msrp at that time. Again we seem to be having an issue with understanding what fair-market value means. 

Anyway, it's just a guess but I bet the car was worth probably ~$23,000 after a month and 800 miles of driving. If you put the FMV at $23,000 and add 8.1% Scottsdale sales tax, registration, and a 10% compensation for dealing with the bull**** then the number comes out to roughly $28,000.

None of that really matters because I'm keeping my car unless something _really_ unexpected happens here, but I'm trying to illustrate the point that the numbers on a buy back are not something that is going to be like winning the ****ing lottery, it's just a number based on FMV that one would get in the event of a buy-back. $28,000 would make me whole and give me that amount to go and replace the car with something of like quality. FMV and MSRP are completely unrelated to purchase price.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Vicelord said:


> I was merely making a point about guys expecting to have their full purchase price refunded.


It was more a response to the exception of having it bought back that I was replying to. Our 2015s are the lowest not the highest on the list.




> I still do not want my car to go anywhere nor do I believe it will.



I don't really want a buyback period (since it makes the nox issue look like baby fart in comparison environmentally) other than I'm trying to sell my 2012 still and that would simply make that process easier so they can take that if they wish.. They would have to fight me for the 2015. I'll back that thing into a pole before I let them buy that back, then take the insurance check wait on the alltrak and swap the tdi in  Been driving the TT I picked up the last few days and I need haldex in all the things!


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

chris86vw said:


> They would have to fight me for the 2015. I'll back that thing into a pole before I let them buy that back


I pretty much feel the same, I drive the wagon probably 75% of my weekly miles and it always puts a smile on my face one way or another. On Sunday I took the 10'x10' pop-up tent, 6 camp chairs, two repair stands, a tool kit, and my bike with both wheels still on to the race and had no issues with any of it fitting in the car with the hatch closed, plus I got 52mpg on the round trip. 

It's too perfect (lol actually) to be real so I love the car!


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

JackStraw79 said:


> It's unfortunate that you probably felt like you were pretty smart while typing up that post


It's unfortunate that you probably felt like you were pretty smart while typing up that post.


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

Car Problems said:


> It's unfortunate that you probably felt like you were pretty smart while typing up that post.


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

spockcat said:


> Obviously he doesn't. Sadly, this doesn't exist for VW TDIs any longer.
> 
> 
> 
> The people who think they are going to get back what they paid for the vehicles even after years of use are the ones who are delusional.


Yes you are correct. I screwed up and said full market instead of "full at time of purchase price"


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

What does 

"full at time of purchase price" 

mean?


----------



## JackStraw79 (Aug 10, 2015)

Car Problems said:


> It's unfortunate that you probably felt like you were pretty smart while typing up that post.


Sick burn. Your post as written was incorrect and made no sense, and I called you out. No biggie


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

As others have mentioned and I guess I'll repeat here, Toyota's buyback plan is probably something that VW would want to model if it does turn out they have to buy back some number of cars. That was based on KBB + 50%, so the notion of getting the full purchase price back seems like a longshot unless you got a used one right before the scandal broke or something. In that case, you might actually end up getting your full purchase price back since used cars don't depreciate as rapidly as new. OTOH, the new ones should have all had SCR (Adblue) and are less likely to require a buyback in the first place. More than likely, if any cars are going to end up in a buyback, it's the old LNT cars. I'm still expecting that the 3.0 models will only need an ECU fix, too. Hopefully CARB/EPA release their decision on those ones soon, as that was submitted separately from the 2.0.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

JackStraw79 said:


> Sick burn. Your post as written was incorrect and made no sense, and I called you out. No biggie


Beat off, Jack. :wave: /feltlikeagenius


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> VW hired Kenneth Feinberg to manage the process and he was quoted as having a 90% acceptance rate for the settlement as his goal.


Kenneth is going to have a hard time reaching anywhere near 90% acceptance rate if he doesn't go big on the buy backs...... Maybe Pre-Dieselgate KBB value using excellent condition plus 30%?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW CEO expects to win back customers despite cheating*



> BERLIN (Reuters) -- Volkswagen Group CEO Matthias Mueller expects the carmaker to win back the trust of its customers following the emissions test-rigging scandal after its core autos division swung back to growth in January.
> 
> "We are quite confident that by regaining the trust of our customers, of the public and of our remaining shareholders, we will have a good year 2016," Mueller told German news agency DPA on Tuesday when asked whether the scandal was having an impact on sales and temporary jobs.
> 
> ...


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

Remember guys, no one is getting a buyback. Some guy said some guy who works for VW said it, so it has to be true.


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

spockcat said:


> *VW CEO expects to win back customers despite cheating*


Aww, that's cute! He _expects_ to win back customers. But _how_? Expectations are not a plan. And I can tell you that with every passing day and ZERO communication of a plan from VW, the prospect of winning back customers continues to plummet.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

PnZrFsT said:


> Remember guys, no one is getting a buyback. Some guy said some guy who works for VW said it, so it has to be true.


That and common sense.


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

JackStraw79 said:


> Sick burn. Your post as written was incorrect and made no sense, and I called you out. No biggie


I should've known better than to post in this "Can't wait for VW to die, which they never will but we really want them to thread".


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

R Salesman said:


> Aww, that's cute! He _expects_ to win back customers. But _how_? Expectations are not a plan.


My wife likes her car a lot (the '09). She'd remain a loyal customer if 1) VW fixed her car and let her continue to drive it, or 2) Take the keys for the old car and hand her the keys to the new car (again, she wouldn't care if VW held the lien to 'own' the extra equity for the duration when the new car held market value over the original. That's only fair for VW to recoup any money if we sell the car before it depreciated to the value to the old one. But if we keep the car for our expected 15 to 20 years then we're not out any additional money.)

If there's a forced buyback where we get stuck with either a lot of time searching for an equivalent replacement or car payments to avoid the time loss then, no, she won't remain a loyal customer.

So let's hope 'the guy' was right and VW will fix them.


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

PnZrFsT said:


> Remember guys, no one is getting a buyback. Some guy said some guy who works for VW said it, so it has to be true.


Yes, where did all this buyback talk originate? It seems everyone in this thread is referring to it as a certainty.

I mean, I would love for our car to be bought back...we would turn around and buy another new TDI Sportwagen if it was available, but I'm not holding my breath.

We just used the majority of the Goodwill cards on the 80k mile service.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

GTI 20v said:


> Yes, where did all this buyback talk originate? It seems everyone in this thread is referring to it as a certainty.
> 
> I mean, I would love for our car to be bought back...we would turn around and buy another new TDI Sportwagen if it was available, but I'm not holding my breath.
> 
> We just used the majority of the Goodwill cards on the 80k mile service.


I'm not sure why anyone is talking with any certainty about anything. I have my own opinions about things, but freely admit I'll probably be wrong. So until there's an official release with details on VW's plan I'm taking everything with the smallest grain of salt, including supposed VW "insiders".


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

GTI 20v said:


> Yes, where did all this buyback talk originate? It seems everyone in this thread is referring to it as a certainty.
> 
> I mean, I would love for our car to be bought back...we would turn around and buy another new TDI Sportwagen if it was available, but I'm not holding my breath.
> 
> We just used the majority of the Goodwill cards on the 80k mile service.


It came from VW who revealed to the EPA they may not be able to retrofit the earlier models with the pollution controls they need.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

PnZrFsT said:


> I'm not sure why anyone is talking with any certainty about anything. I have my own opinions about things, but freely admit I'll probably be wrong. So until there's an official release with details on VW's plan I'm taking everything with the smallest grain of salt, including supposed VW "insiders".





vwwtchr said:


> It came from VW who revealed to the EPA they may not be able to retrofit the earlier models with the pollution controls they need.


Reports like Bloomberg. Still does not mean it will happen but it is pretty credible.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

vwwtchr said:


> It came from VW who revealed to the EPA they may not be able to retrofit the earlier models with the pollution controls they need.


If by VW you mean alleged and very unofficial quotes, sure VW.. :screwy:


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

chris86vw said:


> If by VW you mean alleged and very unofficial quotes, sure VW.. :screwy:



It isn't a certainty but VW reps have said it's on the table - more or less comes from that. Plus EPA/CARB's rejected of the fix adds fuel to the fire.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-deadline-idUSKCN0VA3G6

"At a Jan. 21 court hearing, VW lawyer Robert Giuffra said a buyback is possible "but that hasn't been determined yet," according to a court transcript."

And some guy named .. Beuller? No no.. Mueller! That's it:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN0UP23L20160112

""In some cases it's very easy to repair the cars, in other cases it's very expensive and in that case we have to negotiate whether it would be better to bring back some of the cars to Volkswagen," Matthias Mueller told CNBC at the Detroit auto show on Monday.

"In theory it's possible," he said."

Throw in a dose of Ken Feinberg's talk of a high acceptance rate:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN0VG0MF

""Look at my prior cases: 97 percent of the victims of Sept. 11 accepted my offer. At GM and BP it was more than 90 percent, too. That has to be my target for VW," Feinberg said."

And just for fun, although not VW, EPA spokes person:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-deadline-idUSKCN0VA3G6

"Clegern said after ARB rejected VW's 2.0 liter proposal "we shifted the case onto a broader field; one where we can discuss settlement terms beyond a recall -- buyback, mitigation, etc.""

Mix it together, add 6 months of waiting in silence and you get, what I think is reasonable, speculation of buybacks.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

JohnNS said:


> It isn't a certainty but VW reps have said it's on the table - more or less comes from that. Plus EPA/CARB's rejected of the fix adds fuel to the fire.
> 
> Mix it together, add 6 months of waiting in silence and you get, *what I think is reasonable, speculation of buybacks. *


Or mitigation with no fix to the early cars (LNT).


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

spockcat said:


> Or mitigation with no fix to the early cars (LNT).


Yup, I was just pointing out where the buyback speculation came from and that there were some official sources saying it.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

JohnNS said:


> Yup, I was just pointing out where the buyback speculation came from and that there were some official sources saying it.


Yes VW has even bought back cars already so it must be true!!!!



from VW dealers who they said weren't allowed to sell the CPO cars..



There is still nothing pointing to an end user level buy back, especially the late model vehicles many users here have. 


If the EPA thinks that a buyback is an option they have proven they are worthless and the E stands for nothing, so no not even the EPA statement means a buyback is an option.


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

What are the years for the 3 generations worth of 2.0 TDIs?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW hearing on diesel suits may provide clues on settlement progress*



> WASHINGTON -- A U.S. federal judge will hold a hearing Thursday that may offer the first details on any progress in settling over 500 lawsuits filed against Volkswagen Group, a top supplier and many current and former top executives over excess emissions in 580,000 U.S. diesel vehicles.
> 
> On Monday, lawyers representing owners filed a consolidated 719-page complaint against VW, supplier Robert Bosch, which helped develop emissions controls, along with VW's current and former CEOs and other executives, accusing them of racketeering, mail and wire fraud, among other misconduct.
> 
> ...


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

spockcat said:


> The plaintiffs are asking that VW be ordered to buy back vehicles that *don't *meet emissions standards, and pay *"significant"* damages.


Or *can't *be made to meet the emissions specs, in the case of LNT.

But therein lies the big question, namely, can the lawsuits coerce (convince? cajole?) VW to settle on full price buyback instead of MV plus a percentage? Most here say no, that would be 'unfair' to VW, but on the other hand, VW was the one caught with their hand in the cookie jar and 'fair' may have little to do with it as the emotions take over from those who felt 'wronged' by the flagrant, blatant cheat.

I dunno, Option 2 may not be so far-fetched . . . .


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

T5 Dave said:


> Or *can't *be made to meet the emissions specs, in the case of LNT.
> 
> But therein lies the big question, namely, can the lawsuits coerce (convince? cajole?) VW to settle on full price buyback instead of MV plus a percentage? Most here say no, that would be 'unfair' to VW, but on the other hand, VW was the one caught with their hand in the cookie jar and 'fair' may have little to do with it as the emotions take over from those who felt 'wronged' by the flagrant, blatant cheat.
> 
> I dunno, Option 2 may not be so far-fetched . . . .


I haven't reviewed the entire consolidated complaint but my recollection when I reviewed some of the individual complaints there were claims of fraud and deceptive and unfair trade practices. Those claims allow for higher damages than just being "made whole." Generally, fraud or deceptive trade practices will allow for treble and/or punitive damages and attorneys fees.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

> pay "significant" damages.


_Meet Mark, a proud veteran of the TDI scandal, but Mark can't function as he once did. He's been significantly damaged by the recent scandal that has plagued our county's fine young diesel driving men and women. Mark, like many others, suffers from Post Traumatic Diesel Disorder, or Compression Shock. Won't you please help Diesel Vets like Mark by contributing to the Wounded TDI program. Thank you._


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

PnZrFsT said:


> Remember guys, no one is getting a buyback. Some guy said some guy who works for VW said it, *so it has to be true.*


:what: please.

I have it on good authority, and I'm sharing it with the group. If may not be fact, but considering the source* I BELIEVE* it, and feel it credible enough to post here. we'll find out soon enough, as I was told the EPA and VW are negotiating the final resolution.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

tomski12 said:


> I haven't reviewed the entire consolidated complaint but my recollection when I reviewed some of the individual complaints there were claims of fraud and deceptive and unfair trade practices. Those claims allow for higher damages than just being "made whole." Generally, fraud or deceptive trade practices will allow for treble and/or punitive damages and attorneys fees.


Yeah, I think that's greed talking in hopes of getting more than being 'made whole.' I'm OK with the latter, either by 1) retrofitting the cars to comply or 2) just hand me the keys to the new car as I give them the keys to the old car so I don't have to waste time shopping for a replacement (in my case for two). 

And if it's the second case I'm perfectly fine with VW owning the extra equity as a lienholder until the car depreciates to the current value of my current TDI. That way if the new car is totaled in an accident and the insurance company pays then VW can recoup some of the extra equity and I get the residual value of the original car. ditto if I sell the replacement car early, VW gets to keep whatever is over the residual value of the current TDI. And if I don't have an accident with the new car I'm not out any money if I keep it for the 8 to 13 years as I said I would. That way I'm 'made whole' without incurring any extra expenses or time to shop for new cars, I remain a loyal customer, and I don't have the ability to profit at VW's expense if I sell the replacement car early.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

I got a call last night at 11pm. My girlfriends brother who has a friend that works in the parts department at VW said that his friend in the sales department said the manager said that the owner's wife said to get ready for an influx of TDI owners running back to the dealerships on buybacks and swaps for like-model gas versions. 

It's true. 



opcorn:


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

chris86vw said:


> Yes VW has even bought back cars already so it must be true!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You wondered where the speculation came from because no one official from VW said anything about it, I provided links and quotes where they did, nothing more.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

You'reDrunk said:


> :what: please.
> 
> I have it on good authority, and I'm sharing it with the group. If may not be fact, but considering the source* I BELIEVE* it, and feel it credible enough to post here. we'll find out soon enough, as I was told the EPA and VW are negotiating the final resolution.


I actually hope you're right, as that is my preference that the cars be fixed to comply so I can keep them for their intended service life.

I just wish the courts don't throw sand in the gearbox and force a buyback that puts me out-of-pocket more than if I was allowed to keep the current TDIs.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

JohnNS said:


> You wondered where the speculation came from because no one official from VW said anything about it, I provided links and quotes where they did, nothing more.


I didn't wonder, someone else did, I responded that these were alleged statements with no actual verification and simply just people speculating based on others speculating.

It's just plain stupid, not as stupid as the people who continue to say the EPA will force them to take their car off the road when the EPA actually (no speculation needed) stated that won't happen. but still stupid.


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

aj4066 said:


> I got a call last night at 11pm. My girlfriends brother who has a friend that works in the parts department at VW said that his friend in the sales department said the manager said that the owner's wife said to get ready for an influx of TDI owners running back to the dealerships on buybacks and swaps for like-model gas versions.
> 
> It's true.
> 
> ...


I thought it was the managers wifes dog that heard it from the other dog it mounted that said that.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

chris86vw said:


> I didn't wonder, someone else did, I responded that these were alleged statements with no actual verification and simply just people speculating based on others speculating.
> 
> It's just plain stupid, not as stupid as the people who continue to say the EPA will force them to take their car off the road when the EPA actually (no speculation needed) stated that won't happen. but still stupid.


The EPA never said the long term solution wouldn't include the option of taking the cars off the road, only that in the *short term* we could still drive them until the final deal is worked out. If VW can fix the cars (as You'reDrunk suggests) then you're right. If, on the other hand, the courts or EPA force VW's hand to buy the cars back because of any issue, then no.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> The EPA never said the long term solution wouldn't include the option of taking the cars off the road, only that in the *short term* we could still drive them until the final deal is worked out. If VW can fix the cars (as You'reDrunk suggests) then you're right. If, on the other hand, the courts or EPA force VW's hand to buy the cars back because of any issue, then no.


Again.. EPA stated that they will not force anyone to stop driving their car but that STATES may.

Yes long term.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

EPA said:


> EPA will not confiscate your vehicle or require you to stop driving.


:wave:


ETA:



EPA said:


> Will I be required to have my vehicle repaired once it is recalled





EPA said:


> That depends. Some states require proof that emissions recalls have been performed prior to issuing the vehicle registration. Even in states that do not have this requirement, it is important to have emissions recalls performed because without the repairs, your vehicle may be emitting harmful pollutants in excess of the federal emission standards.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Also since people seem to think VW is taking too long.. EPA disagrees as well




EPA said:


> Depending on the complexity of the repair and the lead time needed to obtain the necessary components, it could take up to one year to identify corrective actions, develop a recall plan, and issue recall notices.


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

chris86vw said:


> Again.. EPA stated that they will not force anyone to stop driving their car but that STATES may.
> 
> Yes long term.


I'm curious if a car has ever been decertified by the EPA and if so, what happened?

I would assume if they decertify them they couldn't be reregistered anywhere when they're do up.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> Also since people seem to think VW is taking too long.. EPA disagrees as well


Are you just going to overlook the fact that the EPA gave VW a deadline to come up with a plan and when VW submitted an incomplete plan it was rejected for being incomplete? The EPA has already made public the fact they rejected VW's plan for being incomplete, thus stating that VW is taking too long because they still haven't come up with a plan of action and we're well past the due date for the development of a plan at this point.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> Are you just going to overlook the fact that the EPA gave VW a deadline to come up with a plan and when VW submitted an incomplete plan it was rejected for being incomplete? The EPA has already made public the fact they rejected VW's plan for being incomplete, thus stating that VW is taking too long because they still haven't come up with a plan of action and we're well past the due date for the development of a plan at this point.


I think the plan said: "Don't woorree. We have wavs of making it paasss!"


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

spockcat said:


> I think the plan said: "Don't woorree. We have wavs of making it paasss!"


That or "Raise the limits and we'll make the vehicles compliant"


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

spockcat said:


> *VW hearing on diesel suits may provide clues on settlement progress*





> The suits have been consolidated before U.S. District Judge Charles Breyer *in San Francisco*. Lawyers for VW, the Justice Department and owners plan to update Breyer on the settlement process Thursday.


Wow, could they have picked a more biased city for a "Fair" trial? :facepalm:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

JitteryJoe said:


> Wow, could they have picked a more biased city for a "Fair" trial? :facepalm:


He wasn't picked on accident, either. They transferred the cases to him in December:

http://tampa.legalexaminer.com/volkswagen/volkswagen-cases-transferred-to-judge-charles-breyer/

They did so with good reason through:



> California is the State with the most affected vehicles and dealers, where significant testing of affected vehicles occurred, and the home of the California Air Resources Board, which played an important initial role in investigating and, ultimately, revealing VW’s use of the defeat devices … While any number of transferee districts could ably handle this litigation, we are persuaded that, in these circumstances, the Northern District of California is the appropriate transferee district for this litigation. There are 30 actions pending in the Northern District of California, including the first-filed case in the nation, and plaintiffs have filed a total of 101 cases in the state of California – nearly a fifth of all cases filed nationwide.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> Are you just going to overlook the fact that the EPA gave VW a deadline to come up with a plan and when VW submitted an incomplete plan it was rejected for being incomplete? The EPA has already made public the fact they rejected VW's plan for being incomplete, thus stating that VW is taking too long because they still haven't come up with a plan of action and we're well past the due date for the development of a plan at this point.


What does that have to do with what I quoted? 

It has been posted dozens and dozens of times that if Vw could have fixed they would have already, and that they can't and because they can't there will be a buy back. I posted that since apparently no one has acutally gone to the EPA page on this problem, and that it not being fixed yet doesn't mean they can't and the EPA even says so.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

JohnNS said:


> That or "Raise the limits and we'll make the vehicles compliant"


VW currently passes the EPA limits in the test they define. VW only failed a test that doesn't exist.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> VW currently passes the EPA limits in the test they define. VW only failed a test that doesn't exist.


Again with all your lies. The law says you cannot equip cars with a defeat device during testing. VW absolutely failed the test because they used a defeat device during the test. The car only legally passes the test if it does so without a defeat device. Since VW requires the use of a defeat device in order to pass the test, that means they failed the test under the law. That absolutely is how the wording of the test exists in the law. They failed a test that very much exists and that is why they are facing both criminal and civil penalties.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> Again with all your lies.


Again with your inability to follow along...

Someone posted that they asked the EPA to raise the limits.

VW passes the limits in the test as the EPA defines that test. VW did not fail that test. This is a fact.



The defeat was not running during the tests the EPA set, they passed the tests without the defeat. The defeat is in affect on the road which is NOT tested.


You have this absolutely backwards.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> Again with all your lies. The law says you cannot equip cars with a defeat device during testing. VW absolutely failed the test because they used a defeat device during the test. The car only legally passes the test if it does so without a defeat device. Since VW requires the use of a defeat device in order to pass the test, that means they failed the test under the law. That absolutely is how the wording of the test exists in the law. They failed a test that very much exists and that is why they are facing both criminal and civil penalties.


He's saying VW passed tests that didn't compare to real world driving. While testing, the defeat device is not in use, because the full emissions system is functioning as it should. However, in real world driving the defeat device kicked in. Since the EPA does not test in real world conditions currently, he is technically correct.


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

chris86vw said:


> Again with your inability to follow along...
> 
> Someone posted that they asked the EPA to raise the limits.
> 
> ...



Someone *joked* about what VW asked. Show me proof VW asked that. 

You are way too serious...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

JohnNS said:


> Someone *joked* about what VW asked. Show me proof VW asked that.


I explained why your joke didn't actually make sense, with the amount of misinformation this thread it is reasonable for someone to clarify things even pertaining to jokes. 



Someone flipped the hell out after that and accused me of lying despite being very wrong themselves.. yeah I'm the one too serious. :screwy:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> Again with your inability to follow along...
> 
> Someone posted that they asked the EPA to raise the limits.
> 
> ...


I laugh whenever I see you post. If anything you said was true, there would be evidence in the form of very obvious things, such as VW having secured certificates of conformity for their 2016 diesel cars & trucks, or a VW countersuit against the government claiming that the EPA & CARB are illegally restricting them from selling otherwise legal cars. As far as the defeat device, again, if the cars were "technically legal" then they wouldn't be subject to recall, because there is no difference under the law between legal and "technically legal." VW did NOT pass the test as the EPA defines the test because the EPA prohibits equipping cars with undisclosed emissions controls either in software or hardware form. This is a fact, whereas what you stated is make-believe, easily demonstrated to be false by the fact that the EPA, CARB, Environment Canada, and the entire European Union along with 20+ other world governments have found VW to be in violation of environmental laws. If anything you said was true, it wouldn't be universal among all the governments of the developed world to state that VW did not legally pass emissions regulations.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

GoHomeBroke said:


> Since the EPA does not test, he is technically correct.


Fixed that for you :laugh:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> He's saying VW passed tests that didn't compare to real world driving. While testing, the defeat device is not in use, because the full emissions system is functioning as it should. However, in real world driving the defeat device kicked in. Since the EPA does not test in real world conditions currently, he is technically correct.


right, their emissions protocols worked in reverse


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

*U.S. judge turns up heat on VW with March emissions fix deadline*

U.S. District Judge Charles Breyer in San Francisco said he wants a definitive answer on the status of a fix by March 24.

Cutting of nuts coming soon?


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

cpermd said:


> U.S. District Judge Charles Breyer in San Francisco said he wants a definitive answer on the status of a fix by March 24.
> 
> Cutting of nuts coming soon?


YAY! :beer:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

cpermd said:


> U.S. District Judge Charles Breyer in San Francisco said he wants a definitive answer on the status of a fix by March 24.
> 
> Cutting of nuts coming soon?


*VW faces March deadline to disclose diesel emissions fix
"Six months is long enough," federal judge tells automaker*



> A federal judge turned up the heat on Volkswagen AG on Thursday, setting a March deadline for the German automaker to disclose whether it has found an emissions fix for 600,000 diesel vehicles that is acceptable to U.S. regulators.
> 
> U.S. District Judge Charles Breyer in San Francisco said he wants a definitive answer on the status of a fix by March 24.
> 
> ...


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

Glad to hear someone is lighting a fire under VW's arse. And the judge is right: 6 months is long enough. In another article I read, the judge said something poignant that I see in government all the time: the workload fills the available time. In other words, if you give VW 3 years to fix this, they'll take the full 3 years. Give them 30 days, it'll take them 30 days. Brilliant. :thumbup:


----------



## Rob Cote (Dec 6, 2006)

It seems like this is still ongoing. Can anyone point me to cliff notes of what's been going on? I'm not about to read 248 pages of this.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> I laugh whenever I see you post.


Yes it is common for people to laugh when embarrassed it's normal, at least you can admit it.




> If anything you said was true


Everything I said was 100% true. 





> there would be evidence in the form of very obvious things, such as VW having secured certificates of conformity for their 2016 diesel cars & trucks, or a VW countersuit against the government claiming that the EPA & CARB are illegally restricting them from selling otherwise legal cars. As far as the defeat device, again, if the cars were "technically legal" then they wouldn't be subject to recall, because there is no difference under the law between legal and "technically legal." VW did NOT pass the test as the EPA defines the test because the EPA prohibits equipping cars with undisclosed emissions controls either in software or hardware form. This is a fact, whereas what you stated is make-believe, easily demonstrated to be false by the fact that the EPA, CARB, Environment Canada, and the entire European Union along with 20+ other world governments have found VW to be in violation of environmental laws. If anything you said was true, it wouldn't be universal among all the governments of the developed world to state that VW did not legally pass emissions regulations.



Nothing you are rambling on about here proves me wrong and only further proves you are completely ignorant to the actual issue.


The problem is NOT that the vehicles are over the limits as per the EPA tests, not a single VW has failed the actual EPA tests as they are instructed to run them and self report. What VW is in trouble for is installing a defeat device that allows the required emissions system to be bypassed in certain conditions, those conditions happen to be whenever the car is not strapped down in a test cell.




So increasing the limits on the current EPA test would not change anything, VW already does that without a defeat device. 


I said nothing about the cars actually being legal, not sure why you are going on and on about me saying otherwise. 



VW violated other laws and regulations, the test itself they PASSED.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Rob Cote said:


> It seems like this is still ongoing. Can anyone point me to cliff notes of what's been going on? I'm not about to read 248 pages of this.


Sure no problem


this is still ongoing


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

R Salesman said:


> And the judge is right: 6 months is long enough.


Unless that judge is an engineer then he really can't say what is or isn't too long. To assume it could be even tested in 6 months to be a reliable worthwhile fix is a joke.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

chris86vw said:


> Unless that judge is an engineer then he really can't say what is or isn't too long. To assume it could be even tested in 6 months to be a reliable worthwhile fix is a joke.


Entire vehicles can be designed from concept to job 1 in as little as 18 months nowadays. I don't think its unreasonable to put a deadline of 6 months for this issue, especially given that VW knew about it early last year. Time to shift all resources necessary without making excuses.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

classicjetta said:


> Entire vehicles can be designed from concept to job 1 in as little as 18 months nowadays. I don't think its unreasonable to put a deadline of 6 months for this issue, especially given that VW knew about it early last year. Time to shift all resources necessary without making excuses.


Design doesn't mean it works.

You don't magically make the fix work to meet tests that no one else is being held to overnight.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> Nothing you are rambling on about here proves me wrong and only further proves you are completely ignorant to the actual issue.


You're right up there with those flat-Earth types, for sure. VW is in trouble all around the world because they did wrong, that's the plain and simple truth. I'm sorry you're unable to accept the truth that is known all around the world.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> You're right up there with those flat-Earth types, for sure. VW is in trouble all around the world because they did wrong, that's the plain and simple truth. I'm sorry you're unable to accept the truth that is known all around the world.


So you believe that VW used the defeat device during the times they were running the EPA mandated self tests?

That in order to reach the low limits in those tests VW had to use them?

That is what you are saying?



You clearly don't actually understand what the issue is and when the defeat device is being used.



I never said VW didn't do anything wrong, show me where I said I did if you want to continue to make these baseless ramblings and attacks.


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

chris86vw said:


> Unless that judge is an engineer then he really can't say what is or isn't too long. To assume it could be even tested in 6 months to be a reliable worthwhile fix is a joke.


To be clear: VW willfully chose to cheat and defraud its customers. So frankly, I -- and the judge -- simply DGAF about VW's excuses. VW created this mess, and they need to fix this mess now. Whether or not it's convenient for VW, or technically possible for VW, is entirely irrelevant. And it appears the federal judge holds a similar opinion.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

R Salesman said:


> To be clear: VW willfully chose to cheat and defraud its customers..


What's more, those significantly damaged customers were as clueless as the EPA to the dangers they were exposed to. It could have been the greatest of all....... oh... my..... god! *IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!*


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> So you believe that VW used the defeat device during the times they were running the EPA mandated self tests?
> 
> That in order to reach the low limits in those tests VW had to use them?
> 
> ...




You're clearly picking nits. They designed it to operate one way during testing and another way at almost all other times. As to which is considered "normal" is the only thing up to debate. 

They did knowingly cheat by doing this (whichever way you wish to phrase it) and that's the bottom line.


Can we move on now?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

R Salesman said:


> To be clear: VW willfully chose to cheat and defraud its customers. So frankly, I -- and the judge -- simply DGAF about VW's excuses. VW created this mess, and they need to fix this mess now. Whether or not it's convenient for VW, or technically possible for VW, is entirely irrelevant. And it appears the federal judge holds a similar opinion.



I get accused of being a flat earther but you actually just said the engineering and science don't matter..:screwy:



The judge was also really damn vague now that I looked at what he said, a definitive answer would be we are still working on it


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> You're clearly picking nits.


I'm actually not at all, several members don't understand what the problem is and what they are actually in trouble for.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

^Chris i normally agree with you but I agree with the judge on this for the most part, and the point about corporations being like government, if you give them a time frame, they will use every minute of that. If you don't give them a time frame, they will *****foot around indefinitely.

For the LNT cars without urea that are not easily fixed, VW could drag those fixes out for YEARS literally, between scrapped retrofit designs etc - since the EPA/DOJ etc also lumped the urea using TDI's in there (which are most likely fixable with a higher urea duty cycle and software patch), VW can literally drag ALL 2.0 and 3.0 TDI's out for years since the hardest to fix is the LNT cars.

6-7 months is more than reasonable to fix the non-urea cars. If they are going to drag their feet on the non-urea cars and lump everyone else with them, I'd like to see a deadline. Either decide to not fix the non-urea cars and invest more in EV's and tree planting to offset emissions (probably with another round of stipend to those cars users who want to keep their cars) or offer to buy them back. Then roll out the software changes to urea-equipped vehicles and be done with it.

They don't need more years to drag their feet since they haven't had a fix for non-SCR cars since it was first designed way back when. I'd like the opportunity to own a urea-equipped TDI if it becomes possible, and VW dragging its feet is not making it possible. They put a stop sale on leftover 2015 TDI's as well, by the time this will be resolved we will be well into 2017 model year cars coming out. Does anyone think that VW dealers won't take a bath on those and the leftover 2016's when they are finally able to be sold?

They need to figure their sh!t out, and another 30 days is reasonable IMO.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

R Salesman said:


> Glad to hear someone is lighting a fire under VW's arse. And the judge is right: 6 months is long enough. In another article I read, the judge said something poignant that I see in government all the time: the workload fills the available time. In other words, if you give VW 3 years to fix this, they'll take the full 3 years. Give them 30 days, it'll take them 30 days. Brilliant. :thumbup:


:facepalm: because a judge is so well versed in the engineering need to resolve this issue.

I said it before, if the US pushes too much, VW could cut off it's nose to spite it's face. 

closing the US factory, and declaring chapter 7 may be forced upon them because of this whole mess. in the end they will still sell vehicles in the US, just the same/differently like GM.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

R Salesman said:


> To be clear: VW willfully chose to cheat and defraud its customers. So frankly, I -- and the judge -- simply DGAF about VW's excuses. VW created this mess, and they need to fix this mess now. Whether or not it's convenient for VW, or technically possible for VW, is entirely irrelevant. And it appears the federal judge holds a similar opinion.


:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Ricky Bobby said:


> ^Chris i normally agree with you but I agree with the judge on this for the most part, and the point about corporations being like government, if you give them a time frame, they will use every minute of that. If you don't give them a time frame, they will *****foot around indefinitely.


I don't disagree with a time frame. I disagree with people thinking that a judge actually knows what is or is not required to say if something is taking too long. 


I'm actively selling a car and getting f'd financially daily by this mess. I want (need) a fix/deadline more than almost every other single person in this thread. VW taking a year actually costs me a lot of money, but I understand that it might take that long and still not angry or demanding answers like many here.


----------



## JackStraw79 (Aug 10, 2015)

R Salesman said:


> To be clear: VW willfully chose to cheat and defraud its customers. So frankly, I -- and the judge -- simply DGAF about VW's excuses. VW created this mess, and they need to fix this mess now. Whether or not it's convenient for VW, or technically possible for VW, is entirely irrelevant. And it appears the federal judge holds a similar opinion.


Yup. The "fix" can be simply "we can't actually repair the cars and will just buy them back".

Didn't VW try for years to come up with a compliant solution, but couldn't so they installed the defeat devices?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

JackStraw79 said:


> Yup. The "fix" can be simply "we can't actually repair the cars and will just buy them back".


How does that help the environment at all? That isn't a fix.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

If my car gets bought back, I'm buying an 86 jetta diesel and a motorcycle, so it will actively make things worse...


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

grawk said:


> If my car gets bought back, I'm buying an 86 jetta diesel and a motorcycle, so it will actively make things worse...


Applause


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

chris86vw said:


> How does that help the environment at all? That isn't a fix.


Considering the entirety of the impacted cars in the U.S. is less than the average yearly sales of F150s, this isn't about the environment, this is about the audacity of a foreign company lying to the U.S. government. Oh, and the American self-important morality of being. 

Do you realize how many people bought a diesel powered car *_attempting to type with straight face_* because it was the best fuel for the environment (it does have an aroma that oozes social responsibility afterall)? All those people feel raped now! Or at the very least vigorously fingered by an old white German man (pro tip: don't google that, Germans have some interesting porn, and German diesel fuel vigorous fingering will scar you if VW hasn't already).


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

chris86vw said:


> I get accused of being a flat earther but you actually just said the engineering and science don't matter..:screwy:
> 
> 
> 
> The judge was also really damn vague now that I looked at what he said, a definitive answer would be we are still working on it


False. I did not type the words "engineering" or "science" in my previous post at all, and I don't think you understand what the word "actually" really means. You've reverted to inventing things again. But I digress.

You (as in you=chris86vw) were willfully defrauded by VW and are suffering ongoing financial harm because of VW's fraud. How long is acceptable for you to continue to be harmed? 6 months? 6 years? Who gets to decide how long is acceptable? If, due to engineering and science, it were to take VW 8 years to develop and implement a technical solution, would that be an acceptable resolution for you? 

Whether you like it or not, the reality is that a federal judge is who gets to decide how long is acceptable. And that judge has decided 6 months is more than reasonable for VW to determine if they can technically fix the cars and come up with a resolution to the ongoing harm VW willfully caused its customers. The "fix" to dieselgate does not necessarily entail a technical solution. The fix to dieselgate is the resolution to the harm customers are experiencing -- whether or not that resolution is accompanied with a technical fix _does not matter._

For example: the resolution to dieselgate could be a complete buyback of all diesels in the US at full MSRP. That would be a resolution to dieselgate that does not incorporate a technical fix. Alternatively, VW could repair all affected diesels within 1 year. In either scenario, dieselgate is resolved -- one resolution incorporates a technical solution, while the other does not.


----------



## JackStraw79 (Aug 10, 2015)

chris86vw said:


> How does that help the environment at all? That isn't a fix.


It removes them from the road and the country at VW's expense, and theoretically replaces them all with emissions-compliant vehicles


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

JackStraw79 said:


> It removes them from the road and the country at VW's expense, and theoretically replaces them all with emissions-compliant vehicles


So shipping of old vehicles, disposal of old vehicles, the impact of those vehicles not running the full useful life, manufacture of new vehicles and shipping of new should be ignored?

Do these new vehicles pass the EPA tests or the tests that don't exist that many other cars also fail?


----------



## JackStraw79 (Aug 10, 2015)

chris86vw said:


> So shipping of old vehicles, disposal of old vehicles, the impact of those vehicles not running the full useful life, manufacture of new vehicles and shipping of new should be ignored?
> 
> Do these new vehicles pass the EPA tests or the tests that don't exist that many other cars also fail?


Yes


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

R Salesman said:


> False. I did not type the words "engineering" or "science" in my previous post at all, and I don't think you understand what the word "actually" really means.


 I didn't use the word literally I used the word actually, there is a difference, and apparently you are the one that doesn't understand what it means. 






> Whether you like it or not, the reality is that a federal judge is who gets to decide how long is acceptable.


Just because they get to decide does not mean that they are making that decision based on any actual knowledge of what a resolution will take. The EPA who does actually handle this sort of thing said it could take a year. Great this judge wants it done sooner, I doesn't mean he has an actual clue what it takes. 

Judges get stuff wrong all the time.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

JackStraw79 said:


> Yes


Yes screw the environment if we pretend to fix the problem buy causing other environmental impacts or yes replace the cheating cars with cars that didn't cheat but still pollute when tested in conditions the EPA doesn't require being tested and therefore most vehicles will fail in some for or another?

A buy back means this isn't about the environment.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

JackStraw79 said:


> Yes


Then you really don't care about the environmental impacts, only in your own righteousness?


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

I'm sure that other less restrictive countries will be flooded with 2009-2014 TDi's* IF and I say IF *the buy back happens. Just like the wrong superbowl shirts and such end up there too.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Silly_me said:


> Considering the entirety of the impacted cars in the U.S. is less than the average yearly sales of F150s, this isn't about the environment, *this is about the audacity of a foreign company lying to the U.S. government.*


Now, is that worse than a domestic company lying to the US Government, or no? And does accepting a massive amount of money from the US Government (courtesy of John and Jane Taxpayer) while still lying about it make things worse? 

This is why I don't like this argument against VW. "They lied to the US Government" Well so did GM. The environmental impact is the main issue, so punish them for that. Arguing that they should be punished for lying to the US Government is a ****ing joke because GM lied about cars that kill people while essentially accepting money from the people they were killing and not one criminal charge was filed for those lies. Try to keep the points on topic as far as what they should be punished for.


----------



## JackStraw79 (Aug 10, 2015)

Silly_me said:


> Then you really don't care about the environmental impacts, only in your own righteousness?


No. I just figured he would continue melting about this regardless of my response, so I went for an elegant one word response


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> How does that help the environment at all? That isn't a fix.


explain.
how does taking 'over polluting' cars off the road NOT help the environment?


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

dunhamjr said:


> explain.
> how does taking 'over polluting' cars off the road NOT help the environment?


The act of building new ones to replace the old ones would create more pollution via the manufacturing process (and taking the offending cars off the road before the end of their service life prematurely) than if the offending cars were just left on the road to pollute NOx at slightly higher than allowed levels.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

GoHomeBroke said:


> Try to keep the points on topic as far as what they should be punished for.


The environmental impact is negligible, the only people clamoring _won't somebody please think of the environment_ are utilizing the cry as a crutch to benefit monetarily. There just aren't enough of the cars on the roads to make any real difference whether they are removed or not.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

T5 Dave said:


> The act of building new ones to replace the old ones would create more pollution via the manufacturing process (and taking the offending cars off the road before the end of their service life prematurely) than if the offending cars were just left on the road to pollute NOx at slightly higher than allowed levels.


meh.
so then no new cars should be built.
manufacturers already end up building more cars per year than we need.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> The environmental impact is negligible, the only people clamoring _won't somebody please think of the environment_ are utilizing the cry as a crutch to benefit monetarily. There just aren't enough of the cars on the roads to make any real difference whether they are removed or not.


I don't think owners are clamoring _won't somebody please think of the environment_ as much as "Hey, I paid a premium for diesel, it maintained fantastic market value (upwards of 80% to 90% of original purchase price as many as 4 years after it was purchased) only to have the residual value drop like a rock the instant the scandal hit!"

Again, if I had a choice (California may not let me) I'd rather keep the TDI's than replace them with petrol-powered equivalents because the superior mpg of the TDI means the carbon footprint from my vehicles is still less than the petrol-powered equivalents running E10. (Well, and diesel is cheaper here in SoCal than regular.)


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

dunhamjr said:


> meh.
> so then no new cars should be built.
> manufacturers already end up building more cars per year than we need.


Don't be so quick. These guys think the carbon footprint to manufacture a car will equal what it spits out the tailpipe in its service life: 
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/sep/23/carbon-footprint-new-car

Multiply that by 482,000 (If all the TDI's were replaced at once) and it adds up.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

T5 Dave said:


> Don't be so quick. These guys think the carbon footprint to manufacture a car will equal what it spits out the tailpipe in its service life:
> http://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/sep/23/carbon-footprint-new-car
> 
> Multiply that by 482,000 (If all the TDI's were replaced at once) and it adds up.


That is not even remotely plausible.

A vehicle that uses (say) 6 litres of petroleum per 100 km uses 12,000 litres - about 10,000 kg - in 200,000 km. This is several times the mass of the car.

Plastic is essentially refined petroleum / natural gas. The amount of energy that it takes to produce steel and aluminum is available to be looked up. Bear in mind that a lot of it is recycled, which takes less energy.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

T5 Dave said:


> I "Hey, I paid a premium for diesel, it maintained fantastic market value (upwards of 80% to 90% of original purchase price as many as 4 years after it was purchased)


Why was that?


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> Why was that?


Why did they buy the diesels or why did the MV retain 80 to 90% after 4 years?


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

GoFaster said:


> That is not even remotely plausible.
> 
> A vehicle that uses (say) 6 litres of petroleum per 100 km uses 12,000 litres - about 10,000 kg - in 200,000 km. This is several times the mass of the car.
> 
> Plastic is essentially refined petroleum / natural gas. The amount of energy that it takes to produce steel and aluminum is available to be looked up. Bear in mind that a lot of it is recycled, which takes less energy.


Mass of the car is irrelevant.

When combusted, a gallon of E10 emits 18.95 pounds of CO2, while a gallon of B20 biodiesel produces 22.06 pounds of CO2. So a diesel getting 40 mpg would use 5000 gallons in 200,000 miles, whereas the gasoline (petrol) powered car would use 6666,7 gallons. They'd emit 110,300 pounds or 126,333 pounds of CO2, respectively, for that 200,000 mile service life. While it's complicated because of all the factors involved, I can't fault The Guardian's logic in that finding the energy to mine all the raw materials, transporting them for processing, refining, transport to the manufacturing facility, and going through the manufacturing process is equal to that. It takes a lot of energy to build a car.

Really, if you want to pollute less, stop buying a new car every year!


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

I have nothing to add except a little comic relief. Spotted this earlier in the week on one of the front windows of the Oakland VW dealer. Loved the blatant white paint. LOL


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> I'm actually not at all, several members don't understand what the problem is and what they are actually in trouble for.


Quote the whole thing, then.



Air and water do mix said:


> You're clearly picking nits. *They designed it to operate one way during testing and another way at almost all other times. As to which is considered "normal" is the only thing up to debate.*
> 
> They did knowingly cheat by doing this (whichever way you wish to phrase it) and that's the bottom line.
> 
> ...



You seem awfully confident that "normal" mode was during testing and the cheat was the mode it was in while on the road. That's a big assumption on your part and I'm not buying it.


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

Geesixty said:


> I have nothing to add except a little comic relief. Spotted this earlier in the week on one of the front windows of the Oakland VW dealer. Loved the blatant white paint. LOL


is this place still in business? that's a _pretty_ outdated advertisement... :laugh:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> Really, if you want to pollute less, stop buying a new car every year!


That's actually been happening anyway. The length of new car ownership has increased 50% over the last 10 years from something like 51 months in 2001 to 77 months in 2014, if I recall the figures correctly. The average - _average_ - age of registered cars is now 11.5 years too, which implies quite a lot of cars are being used for 20+ years before getting scrapped. As cars get more and more reliable, they are going to be kept around longer and longer. The top reasons to scrap a car today are engine and transmission problems. EVs should largely make that go away, so long as the components are high enough quality.

As for the battery packs, once you get cars with ranges of 200 miles and up, that starts to become something of a non-issue as well. Generally speaking, you can get upwards of 750 cycles out of a well temperature controlled lithium ion pack. Substantially more if you're only doing partial cycles, especially if charging is cut off at 90% instead of running to 100% every single time. Even just 200 * 750 cycles = 150,000 miles. That's not the point of destruction either, that's the point of only holding 75% charge. Again, as battery tech progresses in the coming years, I think we could see a point where the average age of cars shoots up to 15 years or more and we start seeing 200 and 300k miles as the standard at which you start to say "Well, it's starting to get up there in mileage."

As I've said in other threads though, the wildcard is self driving cars. Once cars can totally drive themselves, I think personal car ownership will plummet in favor of scheduled self-driving cars (such as a daily scheduled drive to/from work or school, or wherever you go on a scheduled basis) and hourly/mileage rentals for everything else. Such cars could potentially be driving 5, 10+ people around every day and racking up 100-200 miles a day. At 150 miles a day, 6 days a week, such a ride-share car would put on 47k miles a year, thus hitting around 250k miles in just 5 years. That could substantially change the way cars are used and recycled, but it's still a net positive because corporate owned cars have every incentive to use them for as many miles as possible, rather than selfish individuals who replace their cars for reasons like "I got bored."


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

AZGolf said:


> That's actually been happening anyway. The length of new car ownership has increased 50% over the last 10 years from something like 51 months in 2001 to 77 months in 2014, if I recall the figures correctly. The average - _average_ - age of registered cars is now 11.5 years too, which implies quite a lot of cars are being used for 20+ years before getting scrapped. As cars get more and more reliable, they are going to be kept around longer and longer. The top reasons to scrap a car today are engine and transmission problems. EVs should largely make that go away, so long as the components are high enough quality.
> 
> As for the battery packs, once you get cars with ranges of 200 miles and up, that starts to become something of a non-issue as well. Generally speaking, you can get upwards of 750 cycles out of a well temperature controlled lithium ion pack. Substantially more if you're only doing partial cycles, especially if charging is cut off at 90% instead of running to 100% every single time. Even just 200 * 750 cycles = 150,000 miles. That's not the point of destruction either, that's the point of only holding 75% charge. Again, as battery tech progresses in the coming years, I think we could see a point where the average age of cars shoots up to 15 years or more and we start seeing 200 and 300k miles as the standard at which you start to say "Well, it's starting to get up there in mileage."
> 
> As I've said in other threads though, the wildcard is self driving cars. Once cars can totally drive themselves, I think personal car ownership will plummet in favor of scheduled self-driving cars (such as a daily scheduled drive to/from work or school, or wherever you go on a scheduled basis) and hourly/mileage rentals for everything else. Such cars could potentially be driving 5, 10+ people around every day and racking up 100-200 miles a day. At 150 miles a day, 6 days a week, such a ride-share car would put on 47k miles a year, thus hitting around 250k miles in just 5 years. That could substantially change the way cars are used and recycled, but it's still a net positive because corporate owned cars have every incentive to use them for as many miles as possible, rather than selfish individuals who replace their cars for reasons like "I got bored."


Yup, I can hardly wait to get a BEV so (hopefully) I'll never have to buy another car again, ever. One of the guys on the Volvo forum worked for Tesla during the Roadster production phase and he said the drivetrain on the S was good for at least a million miles. I'm holding out for the Tesla 3 with a 200 mile range to get charge cycles down (my commute is only 150 miles a week) so I can charge once a week and hopefully keep the battery pack for over 10 years. My father-in-law's GF has a 9 year old Prius where the battery pack had to be changed at 120,000 miles. Fortunately it was still in warranty, but the batteries do wear out, especially if there are lots of charge cycles on them. That can only get better.

Self driving cars I'm not wild about until the safety systems can be at minimum single-fault tolerant to *any *fault. With cars whizzing by in the opposite lane a mere half-second away from disaster, any fault that can't be corrected in that amount of time can mean the system could veer the car into oncoming traffic. That means the control system will get very complex, much like the Shuttle was, albeit with its two-fault tolerant setup with the four independent computers voting against each other to reject the faulty unit plus the fifth computer that would take over if the four primes went south. Yeah, the cars don't have to be *that* complex, but in my book there needs to be at least 3 computer systems with independent sensors and actuators for each all voting against each other to reject the one that has the fault, then the driver must take over because the remaining two computers won't be able to determine which is at fault if a subsequent fault should occur.

But that's just me. . . .


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

T5 Dave said:


> Why did they buy the diesels or why did the MV retain 80 to 90% after 4 years?



They bought the diesels to make the environment a cleaner place, everyone knows that, I want to know what caused the magic TDI to be such a strong value leader in the used market. The recent plummet is upsetting current owners, almost more than their ire for having polluted the earth more than they thought they were.


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

chris86vw said:


> I didn't use the word literally I used the word actually, there is a difference, and apparently you are the one that doesn't understand what it means.


I did not say what you said I said, literally or actually. But I'm sure you'll invent something else I didn't do in your next post.



chris86vw said:


> Just because they get to decide does not mean that they are making that decision based on any actual knowledge of what a resolution will take. The EPA who does actually handle this sort of thing said it could take a year. Great this judge wants it done sooner, I doesn't mean he has an actual clue what it takes.
> 
> Judges get stuff wrong all the time.


The Judge needs to have precisely zero technical knowledge in order to require VW to meet a 24 March suspense. You seem to think the Judge's technical knowledge makes a difference. I'm saying the Judge's technical knowledge makes no difference whatsoever. On 24 March, VW will either have a technical solution that is acceptable to the EPA, or they won't. It's that simple.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> They bought the diesels to make the environment a cleaner place, everyone knows that, I want to know what caused the magic TDI to be such a strong value leader in the used market. The recent plummet is upsetting current owners, almost more than their ire for having polluted the earth more than they thought they were.


I think it's because at the time the TDI was introduced, fuel was $35/bbl in '09 when we bought ours. Then it went upwards of $115/bbl and floated around there awhile. The TDI's mileage made it an in-demand vehicle, especially here in California where fuel peaked at over $5 per gallon. I'd be spending over $70 per fillup on my T5 Volvo S60 and the TDI would be costing only $35 or so for equal miles driven. Diesel remains cheaper here than gasoline even now. So I think the TDI's drop in resale resulted from a double-whammy of fuel dropping back to below $30/bbl and the dieselgate scandal happening at about the same time.

But that's only conjecture on my part. YMMV


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

jreed1337 said:


> is this place still in business? that's a _pretty_ outdated advertisement... :laugh:


It is. Oakland Volkswagen (California, of course). You can even see the pre-modified version on google maps!

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.816...yWGFFcYacmaKFJhgFg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

Geesixty said:


> It is. Oakland Volkswagen (California, of course). You can even see the pre-modified version on google maps!
> 
> https://www.google.com/maps/@37.816...yWGFFcYacmaKFJhgFg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1


:screwy:

good ol' oakland...


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

grawk said:


> If my car gets bought back, I'm buying an 86 jetta diesel and a motorcycle, so it will actively make things worse...


My motorcycles are equipped with catalytic converters.

(Well, one of them isn't, but I don't ride it very often.)


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

biturbowagon said:


> My motorcycles are equipped with catalytic converters.
> 
> (Well, one of them isn't, but I don't ride it very often.)


Mine will be equipped for off-road use only the day I buy it.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

T5 Dave said:


> Mass of the car is irrelevant.
> 
> When combusted, a gallon of E10 emits 18.95 pounds of CO2, while a gallon of B20 biodiesel produces 22.06 pounds of CO2. So a diesel getting 40 mpg would use 5000 gallons in 200,000 miles, whereas the gasoline (petrol) powered car would use 6666,7 gallons. They'd emit 110,300 pounds or 126,333 pounds of CO2, respectively, for that 200,000 mile service life. While it's complicated because of all the factors involved, I can't fault The Guardian's logic in that finding the energy to mine all the raw materials, transporting them for processing, refining, transport to the manufacturing facility, and going through the manufacturing process is equal to that. It takes a lot of energy to build a car.


The mass of the car is entirely relevant.

http://www.tatasteelconstruction.com/en/sustainability/carbon-and-steel

The amount of CO2 associated with steel manufacturing varies with the type of steel produced, but the total lifecycle numbers hover around 1 tonne of CO2 per tonne of steel (+/- about 30%).

So the manufacturing of the car (which weighs about 1.5 tonnes) produces somewhere near 3300 pounds of CO2 and according to your numbers, the fuel it uses represents about 110,000 pounds of CO2 during its lifetime.

So the manufacturing of the car is only about 3% of its total CO2 footprint ... The CO2 footprint is by far dominated by the fuel burned during its lifetime compared to what is associated with manufacturing it.



T5 Dave said:


> Really, if you want to pollute less, stop buying a new car every year!


That remains true ...


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

grawk said:


> Mine will be equipped for off-road use only the day I buy it.


The motorcycling equivalent of coaling. Got it.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

grawk said:


> Mine will be equipped for off-road use only the day I buy it.


So why are your panties so far up your va-jay-jay it would take a surgeon to remove them? The environmental impact of your car is obviously not a concern.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> So why are your panties so far up your va-jay-jay it would take a surgeon to remove them? The environmental impact of your car is obviously not a concern.


I've repeatedly said that the only way I'm participating in any of this is if it's required, or if it's a buyout offer for what I paid. I am, and have always been, happy with my car. I don't want political garbage requiring that I ruin my car or sell it for a loss.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

grawk said:


> I've repeatedly said that the only way I'm participating in any of this is if it's required, or if it's a buyout offer for what I paid. I am, and have always been, happy with my car. I don't want political garbage requiring that I ruin my car or sell it for a loss.


\

^^Been saying this for a while now. Let me drive the friggin car the way I bought it, without any hacking or retrofitting, or take it back at pre-scandal Excellent KBB value plus deep discount incentive on a new VW.

If I can just drive it the way it is, I'm fully happy driving it for the next 6 years or more and won't worry about depreciation at that point since I'll have gotten my moneys worth out of the vehicle.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Winterkorn was told VW admitted to defeat device weeks before news went public, report says*



> A letter pointing to Winterkorn could lend weight to the cases of shareholders planning to sue VW for compensation for the plunge in its share price, saying the automaker should have told the public as soon as it became aware.
> 
> 
> FRANKFURT (Reuters) -- Former Volkswagen CEO Martin Winterkorn was informed that the carmaker had told regulators it was using emissions defeat devices two weeks before the cheating scandal became public, German tabloid Bild am Sonntag reported on Sunday.
> ...


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

hey judge, we won't be ready.......

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...diesel-talks-could-still-take-weeks-or-months


hmmmm


----------



## LieutenantShinySides (May 4, 2007)

I'm kind of over being frustrated about it at this point. I still enjoy my wagon and even more so since it is paid off and I am waiting for the end of the year to buy an new Tacoma TRD Pro anyway. I have nothing but time.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

You'reDrunk said:


> hey judge, we won't be ready.......
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...diesel-talks-could-still-take-weeks-or-months
> 
> ...


Well, they might not have a choice. Be ready or start writing checks to buy them all back at MSRP....LOL, yeah.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

So, Tesla delays the model x for years, life goes on ok, VW delays diesel fix after a few months: Armageddon in the courts :laugh:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> So, Tesla delays the model x for years, life goes on ok, VW delays diesel fix after a few months: Armageddon in the courts :laugh:


This is the logical fallacy of false equivalency. You compare two things that have nothing to do with each other (delayed new product introduction versus resolving illegal products) to divert attention away from the issue at hand.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> This is the logical fallacy of false equivalency. You compare two things that have nothing to do with each other (delayed new product introduction versus resolving illegal products) to divert attention away from the issue at hand.


I would never suggest that falcon hinges seem to be more easily remedied than illegally polluting diesel engines dating back over multiple product years. Though, perhaps Elon should hire some American judicial system employees as project managers. As I understand it the turnaround would be fantastic.


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

Silly_me said:


> I would never suggest that falcon hinges seem to be more easily remedied than illegally polluting diesel engines dating back over multiple product years. Though, perhaps Elon should hire some American judicial system employees as project managers. As I understand it the turnaround would be fantastic.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

Silly_me said:


> I would never suggest that falcon hinges seem to be more easily remedied than illegally polluting diesel engines dating back over multiple product years. Though, perhaps Elon should hire some American judicial system employees as project managers. As I understand it the turnaround would be fantastic.


Might as well break out the memes with the way things are going here.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

R Salesman said:


> I did not say what you said I said, literally or actually. But I'm sure you'll invent something else I didn't do in your next post.


So when you said that it was irrelevant what was possible from a technology stand point (or however you worded it) you mean things like fairy dust and prayers? Not science and engineering? 






> The Judge needs to have precisely zero technical knowledge in order to require VW to meet a 24 March suspense. You seem to think the Judge's technical knowledge makes a difference. I'm saying the Judge's technical knowledge makes no difference whatsoever. On 24 March, VW will either have a technical solution that is acceptable to the EPA, or they won't. It's that simple.



Yes knowledge is required. This is no different than someone who has never lifted a single weight in a gym in their life ordering someone to be able to squat 500lbs by the end of the month. If they have no clue what it takes to get something done then they are not qualified to demand someone meet an expectation.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW confident it may reach deal with U.S. on technical fix*



> GENEVA (Reuters) -- Volkswagen Group is confident it may reach an agreement with U.S. regulators on a technical fix for diesel cars, vehicle buybacks and fines, CEO Matthias Mueller said.
> 
> The U.S. Justice Department has sued Volkswagen for up to $46 billion for violating U.S. environmental laws. There is still no fix for nearly 600,000 affected cars in the U.S. more than five months after VW's emissions test-rigging scandal broke.
> 
> ...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> You seem awfully confident that "normal" mode was during testing and the cheat was the mode it was in while on the road. That's a big assumption on your part and I'm not buying it.


Since this is very specifically about the fact that the emissions equipment is bypassed or disabled, and it was disabled when used on the road, yes I'm 100% confident. Not sure there could be any question on this here.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Was this because I didn't recommend a six sigma qualified Judge?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> Yes knowledge is required. This is no different than someone who has never lifted a single weight in a gym in their life ordering someone to be able to squat 500lbs by the end of the month. If they have no clue what it takes to get something done then they are not qualified to demand someone meet an expectation.


Sounds like you need to go write a strongly worded letter to the judge telling him how wrong he is. Tell us how that goes for you.


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

chris86vw said:


> So when you said that it was irrelevant what was possible from a technology stand point (or however you worded it) you mean things like fairy dust and prayers? Not science and engineering?


No. 

The Judge issued a legal requirement: VW must develop a dieselgate resolution by 24 Mar. VW can choose to comply with this legal requirement technically, non-technically, or a combination thereof. Hence, there exist three ways that VW can meet the Judge's legal requirement:

1. Legal compliance via technical solution = VW has an EPA-approved plan to make all VW diesels EPA emissions compliant.
2. Legal compliance via non-technical solution = VW buys back diesels (or pays customers x amount of money, etc.).
3. Legal compliance via combination of technical & non-technical solutions = VW has an EPA-approved plan to make some VW diesels EPA emissions compliant and VW buys back remaining diesels (or pays customers x amount of money, etc.)

*The end result is legal compliance, regardless of which path VW chooses to take (1, 2, or 3).* Therefore, _it does not matter if VW can technically make the vehicles emissions-compliant or not, VW must still comply with the legal requirement_. That doesn't mean fairy dust and prayers. It also doesn't mean that science and engineering are meaningless in the grand scheme of life. It simply means that VW must comply with the legal requirement whether or not VW is able to come up with a technical solution.

This entire time, you have been confusing a legal requirement (which is the Judge's order for VW to come up with a resolution by 24 Mar) with a technical requirement (VW diesels meeting EPA emissions standards). They are not necessarily the same.

If the Judge had said, "By 24 Mar, VW must have all affected VW diesels entirely compliant with all EPA emissions regulations," then yeah, I'd totally agree with you that he hasn't got a clue what that would take. But that's not what the Judge ordered.



chris86vw said:


> Yes knowledge is required. This is no different than someone who has never lifted a single weight in a gym in their life ordering someone to be able to squat 500lbs by the end of the month. If they have no clue what it takes to get something done then they are not qualified to demand someone meet an expectation.


This is not the same. See AZGolf's excellent post about the logical fallacy of false equivalency, because it applies to your example here.

For one, someone being able to squat 500lbs isn't a legal requirement. Meeting EPA emissions standards is a legal requirement. The judge doesn't have to know anything about the science of emissions to order VW to come up with a resolution to VW's non-compliance with existing federal law. The judge only needs to know what the law says, and whether or not VW is in compliance with said law. Judges do not need to be subject matter experts in every area that they judge.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

I'd be happy with a buyback, I'm about done with my VW at this point. Sucks because this whole Dieselgate BS has ruined the resale value of the car and has done so much damage to the brand.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> Sounds like you need to go write a strongly worded letter to the judge telling him how wrong he is. Tell us how that goes for you.


Judges make decisions all the time that are completely wrong and they get overturned, happens hundreds of times a day around the country. 

I don't need to write letter to anyone, my opinion is this judge is not qualified nor any judge really to simply make a decision based on how long this takes.

Am I no longer entitled to an opinion that people making decisions should be even slightly educated on the topic? That doesn't even really seem to be something that should be limited to ones opinion and more common sense.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

R Salesman said:


> No.
> 
> The Judge issued a legal requirement: VW must develop a dieselgate resolution by 24 Mar. VW can choose to comply with this legal requirement technically, non-technically, or a combination thereof. Hence, there exist three ways that VW can meet the Judge's legal requirement:
> 
> ...


I laugh at this.....if a Sr Federal Judge can't force Apple to create a backdoor for their phones, where do you think this District Judge has the power to force any of the 3 above????

Fines, yes. anything else, nope.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

R Salesman said:


> No.
> 
> The Judge issued a legal requirement: VW must develop a dieselgate resolution by 24 Mar.


And it is perfectly logical to say that a judge who may not even be able to replace his own wiper blades should not be making decisions based about how long it should take to develop an emissions system without some actual technical background or knowledge? Why is that such an insane idea to you? 

The EPA who actually does this everyday clearly states this may take a year. 

While they can be required to have a proposal by March 24th there is no real reason to believe that it would be properly tested. So who cares if the have a march 24th deadline all it will do is rush them and still not mean there is a legit solution. It won't fix things in the way you believe it will. 


I brought this up to my partner, who is a lawyer and works for a judge, she laughed. 







> This is not the same. See AZGolf's excellent post about the logical fallacy of false equivalency, because it applies to your example here.


IT doesn't need to be the same, it is an example of expectation of knowledge in order to be able to set a time frame for something to be possible. You likely not understanding the actual issue here or likely the example doesn't make it less of a valid example. I could have used growing Bananas and it still would have been a valid comparison. 




> The judge only needs to know what the law says, and whether or not VW is in compliance with said law. Judges do not need to be subject matter experts in every area that they judge.


So what exactly do you believe the law says?

Judges DO have to show reasons why they came to their decisions or they will be overturned.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

You'reDrunk said:


> I laugh at this.....if a Sr Federal Judge can't force Apple to create a backdoor for their phones, where do you think this District Judge has the power to force any of the 3 above????
> 
> Fines, yes. anything else, nope.


There's no legal obligation to create a backdoor for Apple. There is a legal obligation for VW to come into compliance with the laws they willfully broke. Now the EPA is the one with the actual power to force recalls until there is a technical fix in place.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

vwwtchr said:


> There's no legal obligation to create a backdoor for Apple. There is a legal obligation for VW to come into compliance with the laws they willfully broke. Now the EPA is the one with the actual power to force recalls until there is a technical fix in place.


and they have done what they (EPA) can under their charter.

other than each state deciding to NOT allow vehicles under the recall to renew their registration....pretty much all has been done.

legal powers only go so far. 

they can't compel the fix in an unreasonable amount of time......it will be fought (legally) and probably won. this mess will drag out in legal-time, not real-time. it's complex and not something that can be fixed (if at all) within a forced time frame.

what, they are going to fine them more than the billions they are already facing in fines??? legally calculated response is what is going to happen. cost/benefit analysis folks.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

You'reDrunk said:


> it's complex and not something that can be fixed (if at all) within a forced time frame.


And I don't get why this is so mind blowing to a few hear.


Even if they could have a theoretical fix by that date there is really no way it could be tested and proven to be a reliable long term solution. So a rushed date changes nothing, ok like the congressional hearing it makes the rest of the world laugh at our incompetence. Oh wait that still isn't a change either.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

chris86vw said:


> And I don't get why this is so mind blowing to a few hear.
> 
> 
> Even if they could have a theoretical fix by that date there is really no way it could be tested and proven to be a reliable long term solution. So a rushed date changes nothing, ok like the congressional hearing it makes the rest of the world laugh at our incompetence. Oh wait that still isn't a change either.


the "reasonableness" standard is what I'm basing my statements on.

the judge is not an expert in the issue, and all would agree that since the lie was so complex, the fix will be at least so.....so why would anyone reasonably believe that a fix can be demanded in a short period of time?

as long as they (VW) shows the courts they are actively working on some form of resolution, any fines this judge creates, will be adjudicated away in an appeal.


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)




----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

Edit - beaten by a minute because I wanted to save everyone a click. 

Have we seen this yet?








> A presentation by Volkswagen at the Geneva Motor Show was interrupted by a demonstrator on Tuesday. The man, dressed as a VW mechanic, walked on stage and said that Volkswagen's chief executive had sent him to fix a display car's engine, alluding to the carmaker's emissions scandal last year.


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

^^ It's hilarious. 

How do I embed video though? It keeps showing the link only when I insert video.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

Rawcpoppa said:


> How do I embed video though? It keeps showing the link only when I insert video.


Forum doesn't support that shortened URL. Use the proper (longer) one, and it will embed.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

The other problem is that youtube tends to want to send securely, as in https. You have to change it to http: not https: in order for embed to work.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Volkswagen has some fixing to do for sure. But what is up with the NY Times saying "The Obama Administration on Friday ordered..."? *The EPA on Friday ordered...* is the correct line. Lots of other "administration" references as well. This was the EPA investigating this in cooperation with CARB. Why turn everything into a political mess and get more people stirred up? How about reporting facts and leaving the drama and political nonsense out of it?
> 
> Off soapbox...


EPA is an executive branch agency.


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

Thanks guys.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Turbio! said:


> EPA is an executive branch agency.


_The following errors occurred with your submission

This forum requires that you wait 168 days between posts. Please try again in 1 days._


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> The other problem is that youtube tends to want to send securely, as in https. You have to change it to http: not https: in order for embed to work.


I was wrong, the shortened URL with SSH works.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Turbio! said:


> EPA is an executive branch agency.


Yup, plus this isn't just about the EPA, the justice department is involved because they are the ones that own the lawsuit part. The justice department also reports to the president. In a lot of ways, it's more accurate to refer to the president since he oversees both EPA & DOJ.


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

chris86vw said:


> And it is perfectly logical to say that a judge who may not even be able to replace his own wiper blades should not be making decisions based about how long it should take to develop an emissions system without some actual technical background or knowledge? Why is that such an insane idea to you?


You are going after a desirable while considering it necessary. It would indeed be nice if the Judge in question had an engineering background or a scientific background. As is common with most Judges, however, he happens to have a legal background (I know! Shocker, right?). I never said it was an insane idea. What is an insane idea, though, is to expect every Judge to be a subject matter expert in the topic they are judging. We'd need a lot of Judges for what you're proposing.



chris86vw said:


> The EPA who actually does this everyday clearly states this may take a year.


That's fantastic. But guess what? I don't care. And neither does the Judge. He wants VW to present their plan for a fix on 24 Mar, and that's what VW is legally required to do. They were also legally required to make their diesels compliant with EPA emissions regulations, so we'll see how things go come 24 Mar (in other words, I'm doubtful VW will have any kind of real plan by the deadline).



chris86vw said:


> While they can be required to have a proposal by March 24th there is no real reason to believe that it would be properly tested. So who cares if the have a march 24th deadline all it will do is rush them and still not mean there is a legit solution. It won't fix things in the way you believe it will.


I don't so much think an actual way forward will be presented on the 24th as much as I think this is simply lighting a fire under VW's arse and getting them to do _something_. Which is better than the _nothing_ they've basically accomplished these last 6 months. 



chris86vw said:


> IT doesn't need to be the same, it is an example of expectation of knowledge in order to be able to set a time frame for something to be possible. You likely not understanding the actual issue here or likely the example doesn't make it less of a valid example. I could have used growing Bananas and it still would have been a valid comparison.


It wasn't a valid comparison. Valid, by definition, means having a sound basis in logic or fact. You had neither. I specifically pointed out that you had a fallacy of false equivalency, which therefore means your example cannot be valid. I know what it is that you _want,_ though. You _want_ the Judge to be knowledgeable about science and/or engineering in order for you to _emotionally feel good_ about his decision. I'm simply pointing out that it is not necessary for the Judge to be knowledgeable about science and/or engineering in order for him to be able to preside over this matter. In other words, I'm pointing out what is actually the case, while you're pointing out what you would like to be the case.



chris86vw said:


> So what exactly do you believe the law says?
> 
> Judges DO have to show reasons why they came to their decisions or they will be overturned.


And I maintain that Judges can demonstrate their reasons without having to also be subject matter experts on the issue they're judging.

Well, based on what seems to be from reputable news sources, I believe that VW's 2009-2015 2.0 TDIs are not in compliance with the EPA's emissions regulations. I also believe VW admitted to cheating on EPA emissions regulations. I believe these things based solely on what I've read on the internet, so it's entirely possible that I could be wrong. Though to be honest, my opinion of what the law says is of significantly less worth than what Judge Breyer believes, so I'm not sure why you asked.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

R Salesman said:


> I don't so much think an actual way forward will be presented on the 24th as much as I think this is simply lighting a fire under VW's arse and getting them to do _something_. Which is better than the _nothing_ they've basically accomplished these last 6 months.


that is a mighty big assumption


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

R Salesman said:


> It wasn't a valid comparison.


Your lack of understanding doesn't make something invalid. 


That applies to the rest of your post as well.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

R Salesman said:


> As is common with most Judges, however, he happens to have a legal background (I know! Shocker, right?). I never said it was an insane idea.


Also you do realize that lawyers and judges have all sorts of varying educational background right? Law school is post graduate work and the people who go on to it often have completely unrelated undergraduate degrees, engineering not being entirely uncommon. The previously mentioned partner of mine has degrees in German and international business (or something like that), worked abroad for about a decade before deciding law school would be "neat" (It was before we met but I sort of get the feeling that is how it came about) and is now a lawyer having passed the bar in 2 states and waiting on her third that she took last week.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> Since this is very specifically about the fact that the emissions equipment is bypassed or disabled, and it was disabled when used on the road, yes I'm 100% confident. Not sure there could be any question on this here.


It is programmed to act one way under certain conditions and differently under others, neither is necessarily "normal". It was admittedly illegal and everyone but seemingly you seem to know that.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

Air and water do mix said:


> It is programmed to act one way under certain conditions and differently under others, neither is necessarily "normal". It was admittedly illegal and everyone but seemingly you seem to know that.


I think we can take pretty with fair certainty that whichever mode is designed to run 99.99% of the time is the "normal" mode. In this case the "normal" mode was the polluting version of the software.

It's not really a point anyone but the few remaining trolls want to debate.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> It is programmed to act one way under certain conditions and differently under others, neither is necessarily "normal". It was admittedly illegal and everyone but seemingly you seem to know that.


Let's clarify a few things here.

You are using "normal" in a way that I did not use nor did i respond to anyone using, you have made up your own normal and now expecting people to have to abide by what you deem normal.

This is what is my exact post:



> The problem is NOT that the vehicles are over the limits as per the EPA tests, not a single VW has failed the actual EPA tests as they are instructed to run them and self report. What VW is in trouble for is installing a defeat device that allows the required emissions system to be bypassed in certain conditions, those conditions happen to be whenever the car is not strapped down in a test cell.



The discussion stemmed from someone joking that the fix would be them saying they need to change the limits.

The FACT remains that VW did at the time submit to the EPA and has been verified by WVU that when strapped to a test cell and tested as the EPA outlines the car passes. At that time emissions equipment is full functional, pretty obvious as it passes.


Now when the vehicle is taken on the road and put to tests developed by WVU (maybe someone else came up with them?) and the vehicle is NOT.


What the EPA is actually saying is the problem and the regulations/laws VW broke is that a defeat device, program in this case, was installed so that when NOT testing the vehicles emissions systems they are no longer enabled or are working at a lesser output. Note the similarities in the new accusations hat another manufacture shuts off their systems below a certain ambient temperature. 


Now normal yes for you, I, and likely everyone else would be driving down the road. However the EPA, you know the ones all upset about this, define defeat device very specifically as something that removes or reduces the effectiveness of the emissions system. So _normal_ might be driving down the road and the test might not be the _normal_ that you think it is but that doesn't matter here at all. What matters is that the EPA defines a defeat device specifically to mean disable not add functionality during a test. 


So not only do I actually know this but I fully know that it was illegal (never once denied that so not sure why you are making things up :screwy, but I actually understand what the EPA defines a defeat device as and it cannot be a defeat device in your scenario.


You apparently are the one that doesn't understand this.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

vwwtchr said:


> It's not really a point anyone but the few remaining trolls want to debate.


It actually isn't a point anyone is debating, troll or not.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

You'reDrunk said:


> the "reasonableness" standard is what I'm basing my statements on. the judge is not an expert in the issue, and all would agree that since the lie was so complex, the fix will be at least so.....so why would anyone reasonably believe that a fix can be demanded in a short period of time? as long as they (VW) shows the courts they are actively working on some form of resolution, any fines this judge creates, will be adjudicated away in an appeal.


I think VW has known about the need for a fix for longer than the public has known about the situation. They were told to fix this issue in 2014 when the recall for emissions came out with the ecu re-flash.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

chris86vw, unless you are a lawyer representing VW, your opinion about how wrong the US judicial system is has exactly zero value here. In fact, even if you ARE counsel for VW, it still may not matter and you may lose your case. The more that VW digs in and fights, the worse the consequences will be when they lose - and they ARE going to lose.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> chris86vw, unless you are a lawyer representing VW, your opinion about how wrong the US judicial system is has exactly zero value here.



A. I'm still entitled to have and express my opinion on this forum, it is a discussion forum after all and we are discussing are we not?

B. It's value is identical to the value of your opinion on the matter. :thumbup:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> A. I'm still entitled to have and express my opinion on this forum, it is a discussion forum after all and we are discussing are we not?
> 
> B. It's value is identical to the value of your opinion on the matter. :thumbup:


You're funny - what you present is an opinion: things like "VW did nothing wrong, the government cannot issue orders and Judge Breyer is unqualified and not allowed to issue the March 24th deadline because he's not an engineer." That's an opinion. The rest of us are presenting facts. Things like: VW admitted wrongdoing, VW is currently charged with criminal charges by the federal government, equipping cars with an undisclosed emissions defeat device is illegal, and Judge Breyer has the legal authority as granted to him by the government to issue orders to companies.

See that's the difference: You post opinions, while the rest of us post facts.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> You're funny - what you present is an opinion: things like "VW did nothing wrong, the government cannot issue orders and Judge Breyer is unqualified and not allowed to issue the March 24th deadline because he's not an engineer."
> 
> 
> See that's the difference:



What I see is you making up statements I never made and putting them in quotes like I did. That is some shady stuff right there. :thumbdown:




> You post opinions, while the rest of us post facts.



I've actually posted both, you seem to harp on the opinions you disagree with which is fine but you run and hide when I post facts that disprove things you are saying.


You have also posted opinions that are actually factually wrong.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf,

Do you mind actually quoting posts I made so that users can go back to see things actually stated here? Instead of just making things up and claiming I said things I never did. 

If you don't mind a link to the post I made saying VW did nothing wrong would be a great start, you keep claiming that I said this yet never did. You only post facts right? should be easy then. :thumbup:


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

Could we have separate threads? one for VW scandal updates and one for e-lawyer pissing contests?


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)




----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

PlatinumGLS said:


>


Guess what I gotta watch now. "Yesss."/smallfistpump


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Wow. That is hilarious.

I didn't say this or I didn't say that. I said this other thing. *posts example of just that*


----------



## silverxt (Feb 25, 2006)

benjaminobscene said:


> Could we have separate threads? one for VW scandal updates and one for e-lawyer pissing contests?


Amen.

I periodically check this thread looking for any actual updates, and it's annoying to have to wade through pages and pages of this back and forth bull**** each time.


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

This thread needs to hibernate until the 24th


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

silverxt said:


> Amen.
> 
> I periodically check this thread looking for any actual updates, and it's annoying to have to wade through pages and pages of this back and forth bull**** each time.


Can we get EPA to recall 500,000 lawyers ?


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

benjaminobscene said:


> Could we have separate threads? one for VW scandal updates and one for e-lawyer pissing contests?





cpermd said:


> This thread needs to hibernate until the 24th





J-Tim said:


> Can we get EPA to recall 500,000 lawyers ?


And I had to weed through three pages of bickering (since the last time I checked this thread) to find these gems. Well done, gents. :beer:


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

Geesixty said:


> And I had to weed through three pages of bickering (since the last time I checked this thread) to find these gems. Well done, gents. :beer:


Try the buffet. :thumbup:


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

benjaminobscene said:


> Could we have separate threads? one for VW scandal updates and one for e-lawyer pissing contests?


Or just add him to the ignore list like all the other trolls who try to ruin threads with circular arguments that go nowhere (see: JIMP, Zukiphile, etc)


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

vwwtchr said:


> Or just add him to the ignore list like all the other trolls who try to ruin threads with circular arguments that go nowhere (see: JIMP, Zukiphile, etc)


That's impressive, I can't hold grudges in real life, let alone on-line, because I just don't care. Tell me, how hot does that hate burn? :laugh:


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

cpermd said:


> This thread needs to hibernate until the 24th


Maybe after the 2nd when the EPA/CARB's ruling comes down on the 3L fix that VW sent in?


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

vwwtchr said:


> Or just add him to the ignore list like all the other trolls who try to ruin threads with circular arguments that go nowhere (see: JIMP, Zukiphile, etc)


This is what, the third time its happened in this thread with the same user?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> Wow. That is hilarious.
> 
> I didn't say this or I didn't say that. I said this other thing. *posts example of just that*


Not in the slightest, every word that AZgolf posted was fabricated, meanwhile he posts claiming that he only posts facts. :screwy:

The main thing being that he repeatedly has stated that I claimed VW did nothing wrong, I never said that. I've actually posted several times about exactly what they _did_ wrong, something you don't get but that's a theme apparently.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> Not in the slightest, every word that AZgolf posted was fabricated, meanwhile he posts claiming that he only posts facts. :screwy:
> 
> The main thing being that he repeatedly has stated that I claimed VW did nothing wrong, I never said that. I've actually posted several times about exactly what they _did_ wrong, something you don't get but that's a theme apparently.


When you're on the side of an issue alone/everyone disagrees with you it might be time to reevaluate.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> When you're on the side of an issue alone/everyone disagrees with you it might be time to reevaluate.


I'm not even remotely alone, actually it is really just 2 or 3 of you "opposing" me with alleged facts that are actually entirely false. I don't understand why you are so proudly ignorant, but if that is what you are into cool I guess just stop subjecting everyone here to the nonsense. 


Nothing changes that AZgolf is a liar and blatantly making things up to make it appear as if I'm on some side no one else is on, and you don't understand what a defeat device is.


Since AZ ran off like usual when called out for his BS, maybe you can show everyone here were I allegedly said the things he claims I did. Please show us...


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> I'm not even remotely alone, actually it is really just 2 or 3 of you "opposing" me with alleged facts that are actually entirely false. I don't understand why you are so proudly ignorant, but if that is what you are into cool I guess just stop subjecting everyone here to the nonsense.
> 
> Nothing changes that AZgolf is a liar and blatantly making things up to make it appear as if I'm on some side no one else is on, and you don't understand what a defeat device is.
> 
> Since AZ ran off like usual when called out for his BS, maybe you can show everyone here were I allegedly said the things he claims I did. Please show us...



I'm done. You can feel free to reread what I've said over the course of this thread if you want, but I'm not the one who pretends to understand the intent of the wrongdoing VW had admittedly done.

Feel free to respond if you wish, I don't care.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> I'm done. You can feel free to reread what I've said over the course of this thread if you want, but I'm not the one who pretends to understand the intent of the wrongdoing VW had admittedly done.


Again with this nonsense, you are no different than AZgolf you are just making crap up and then saying you are done because you don't actually have a valid point. 

WHERE did I say vw did no wrong doing? where did I say what vw did was ok? You and AZgolf keep claiming this but can't show anyone a single place I posted that. 


It is not my fault or anyone else's fault you continue to ignore what VW is actually in trouble for and refuse to acknowledge what the EPA (you know the ones with the problem here) define a defeat device as.

I do in fact understand, I've proven it, you've proven you don't in anyway remotely understand time and time again.


Good you are done, now no one will have to further be subject to your BS.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

chris86vw said:


> I'm not even remotely alone, actually it is really just 2 or 3 of you "opposing" me


No, the rest of us just see how you argue and want no part of it. You're almost literally chasing your own tail like an over-excited dog. Xanax, ask your Dr. if it's right for you (it is). :thumbup:


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> I'm not even remotely alone...


I disagree. With a show of hands, who is with Chris86vw?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> No, the rest of us just see how you argue and want no part of it.


Not every disagreement is an argument :thumbup:


Really nothing to argue when one side is making things up.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

All of you can shut up. I'm here for the free money from VW.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

chris86vw said:


> Really nothing to argue when one side is making things up.


Or one side is so wrong on the basics of said disagreement that it warrants nothing but head shaking. :thumbup:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

PlatinumGLS said:


> I disagree. With a show of hands, who is with Chris86vw?


Well the EPA for starters...



> Defeat device means an auxiliary emission control device (AECD) that* reduces *the effectiveness of the emission control system under conditions which may reasonably be expected to be encountered in normal vehicle operation and use


http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...47&mc=true&node=se40.19.86_11803_601&rgn=div8



But that isn't important at all...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Or one side is so wrong on the basics of said disagreement that it warrants nothing but head shaking. :thumbup:


I can shake my head without making claims that someone said things they never did. 


If I'm so wrong then so is the EPA..:thumbup:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

.yuk. said:


> All of you can shut up. I'm here for the free money from VW.


You are in luck, I hear the Judge is planning to have the VW execs play wheel of money!


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

As I wrote in another thread, the judge has basically told VW that they're going to have to poop or get off the pot.


----------



## silverxt (Feb 25, 2006)

biturbowagon said:


> As I wrote in another thread, the judge has basically told VW that they're going to have to poop or get off the pot.


...but if the judge doesn't know the engineering involved with pooping, he's not qualified to impose a deadline by which they need to do so (or get off the pot).


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

silverxt said:


> ...but if the judge doesn't know the engineering involved with pooping, he's not qualified to impose a deadline by which they need to do so (or get off the pot).


Not necessarily. If the law requires compliance within a specific amount of time, then the judge would be right (engineering be damned) to demand a solution. The actual solution could be multiple years away. VW claiming it needs more time could be nothing more than stalling for a lower cost at buybacks as the vehicles age another year and accumulate more miles. 

Frankly, VW should have known that this problem was going to be discovered sooner or later since 2009. They have had 7 years to work on a solution. If they choose not to work on the solution for all those years, it is their fault. Not the fault of the owners or the EPA.


----------



## silverxt (Feb 25, 2006)

spockcat said:


> Not necessarily. If the law requires compliance within a specific amount of time, then the judge would be right (engineering be damned) to demand a solution. The actual solution could be multiple years away. VW claiming it needs more time could be nothing more than stalling for a lower cost at buybacks as the vehicles age another year and accumulate more miles.
> 
> Frankly, VW should have known that this problem was going to be discovered sooner or later since 2009. They have had 7 years to work on a solution. If they choose not to work on the solution for all those years, it is their fault. Not the fault of the owners or the EPA.


I know.


I was mocking someone else's argument, hence the


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

This thread


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

spockcat said:


> If the law requires compliance within a specific amount of time, then the judge would be right (engineering be damned) to demand a solution.


But, which law dictates that? Also, a judge has no responsibility here until:



EPA said:


> Criminal Enforcement
> 
> EPA's criminal enforcement program was established in 1982 and was granted full law enforcement authority by Congress in 1988. It enforces the nation's laws by investigating cases, collecting evidence, conducting forensic analyses and providing legal guidance to assist in the prosecution of criminal conduct that threatens people's health and the environment. The Criminal Enforcement Overview provides more information on investigative activities. Read more about adjudicated case summaries in the monthly Environmental Crimes Case Bulletin.


source: http://www.epa.gov/enforcement/criminal-enforcement

To me he's being sensational, akin to a judge yanking me out of my car and fining me for speeding :laugh:



spockcat said:


> Not the fault of ..... the EPA.


How so? They are responsible for enforcement, yet do not even test the vehicles that they certify. I'd say that this is a perfect example of 'on your honor' doesn't work with a business whose job is to make money. The EPA failed at its charge.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

silverxt said:


> ...but if the judge doesn't know the engineering involved with pooping, he's not qualified to impose a deadline by which they need to do so (or get off the pot).


No, for the uninformed and illiterate I said that he was not qualified to say that they have had enough time to come up with a solution, because he isn't. His position may allow him to say they need to hurry up and his position may allow him to put a deadline on it but despite what others say he isn't actually himself qualified to say what is or is not too long. 


But that is easily confused when several posters continue to make up fake quotes changing what was actually said into something else entirely.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

moar rumors from my source.....

The EPA rejected a piecemeal solution to the issues surrounding the diesels. VW had/has a solution for all of the 2011 and later vehicles affected, but the EPA rejected it and told VW that their solution will be an "all or nothing" resolution....most likely to force their hand, as NO vehicle (new or used) can be sold until all of the vehicles are resolved.

also.....after further review, it *IS* a possibility that the costs and time related to retrofit of the 09-10 MY cars *may be a buy-back*. 

I'll post up info as I get it.....:thumbup:


----------



## Aw614 (May 9, 2001)

What differences are there from the 09-10 and the 11-14 TDIs? Arent they the same engine (referring to the 2.0CR)?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Aw614 said:


> What differences are there from the 09-10 and the 11-14 TDIs? Arent they the same engine (referring to the 2.0CR)?


There is a new engine that came out in the passat in 2011 as a 2012 model year car. That is the car that past most of the tests done by WVU.

The 40x over in the small section of a single test conducted by WVU and not within the guidelines of the EPA tests vehicles were produced from 2009 into 2014 in some applications those are all 99% the same. If they can retrofit a 2014 it would cost the same to retrofit a 2009. My guess is that it as just some confusion in the information relayed regarding which vehicles are possibly getting what for a resolution. There is nothing that differentiates a 2009-2010 jetta from say a 2013 as far as an upgrade would be concerned, if there was something due to the body change on the sedans, the years would still not align on the jetta sportwagen for example which did not change in that time period other than a facelift.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

You'reDrunk said:


> moar rumors from my source.....
> 
> 
> also.....after further review, it *IS* a possibility that the costs and time related to retrofit of the 09-10 MY cars *may be a buy-back*.
> ...


Awww, Don't say that, Vizzini . . . .

(I really don't want a buyback for either car. Diesel is $2 per gallon at my corner station right now, regular is $2.60)


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

silverxt said:


> ...but if the judge doesn't know the engineering involved with pooping, he's not qualified to impose a deadline by which they need to do so (or get off the pot).


He clearly knows it about as well as Volkswagen did, otherwise they would've been potty trained years ago instead of ****ting the bed this whole time.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

You'reDrunk said:


> also.....after further review, it *IS* a possibility that the costs and time related to retrofit of the 09-10 MY cars *may be a buy-back*.












:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

:beer:


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

.yuk. said:


> All of you can shut up. I'm here for the free money from VW.





ByronLLN said:


> He clearly knows it about as well as Volkswagen did, otherwise they would've been potty trained years ago instead of ****ting the bed this whole time.





PnZrFsT said:


>


Good Lord, these are funny.:laugh:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

PnZrFsT said:


> :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
> 
> :beer:


again, I'm only posting what is being told to me. I'm NOT backpedaling, the person relaying the information isn't backpedaling, it would be VW doing it; as they are the ones providing the info.

regardless, I'm just trying to help and provide some information that I believe to be reliable in this whole mess; which has been a vacuum/devoid of information for all of us.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

You'reDrunk said:


> again, I'm only posting what is being told to me. I'm NOT backpedaling, the person relaying the information isn't backpedaling, it would be VW doing it; as they are the ones providing the info.
> 
> regardless, I'm just trying to help and provide some information that I believe to be reliable in this whole mess; which has been a vacuum/devoid of information for all of us.


I'm just joking around, no need to justify what you're doing. I thought my post came off as lighthearted enough but I apologize if you thought I was trying to start **** with you. :beer::beer:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

PnZrFsT said:


> I'm just joking around, no need to justify what you're doing. I thought my post came off as lighthearted enough but I apologize if you thought I was trying to start **** with you. :beer::beer:


:thumbup: No, I did get you, I just wanted to be clear on my side.

I hope I'm not pissing anyone off, as even I know what I'm posting is scuttlebutt....but I feel it's accurate scuttlebutt (oxymoron?)


----------



## Chesed (Jan 21, 2004)

You'reDrunk said:


> I hope I'm not pissing anyone off, as even I know what I'm posting is scuttlebutt....but I feel it's accurate scuttlebutt (oxymoron?)


Larry,

Thanks for taking the time to type up what you've heard, and you're adding something of value to the discussion (casts a view askance at that chris86vw guy) but has it occurred that you are doing your 'mole' at VW more harm than good by taking what is told to you and broadcasting it out on Vortex?

Not only is the company currently facing some pretty massive litigation to be discussing avenues of remediation publicly, but until a plan is agreed upon and in place, this isn't doing anyone developing that plan any favors.

And it prevents you from coming out swinging that you have a lock on a singular truth, the having to stick a Barry Bonds asterisk on that truth after the fact.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)




----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Chesed said:


> Larry,
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to type up what you've heard, and you're adding something of value to the discussion (casts a view askance at that chris86vw guy) but has it occurred that you are doing your 'mole' at VW more harm than good by taking what is told to you and broadcasting it out on Vortex?
> 
> ...


:thumbup: I get it. I totally agree, and it's why I said what I said.

I know VW and it's folks scan this site......hell, it'd be nice if someone with info to post up something, but short of that I thought I'd help the community with what info I could get.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

You'reDrunk said:


> :thumbup: I get it. I totally agree, and it's why I said what I said.
> 
> I know VW and it's folks scan this site......hell, it'd be nice if someone with info to post up something, but short of that I thought I'd help the community with what info I could get.


Until we positively hear otherwise I'm going to figure there are three possible outcomes to the final decision:

1) VW retrofits emissions controls to meet all standards and we can continue to drive our TDI's, or
2) VW takes the keys to our TDI's and give us new ones, or
3A) VW buys back our TDI's for what we paid for them, or
3B) VW buys back our TDI's for some formula of market value but less than what I could get an equivalent replacement TDI for.

If the final decision is 3B, I'm going to be so upset I'll never buy another VW again, in spite of I really like them, they've been far more reliable than my old Volvos, I can get the Ross-Tech scan tool and keep them going for 15 to 20 years, diesel is WAY cheaper than gasoline out here in California, and my wife really really really likes her Jetta and doesn't want to give it up.

And, again, FYI to anyone who thinks I'm gold-digging on #2, I'm totally fine with VW handing me the keys and maintaining a lien on the car and 'owning' the value of the car over and above what the current Jetta is worth. That way if I sell it, VW can recoup the sale cost over and above what equity I have in the Jetta. And if I don't sell it, the car becomes mine at such time when the new vehicle depreciates to the value of my current Jetta. That way I'm not out any payments and I can keep my plan to own the car for 15 to 20 years, but I'm not made 'better' in the transaction, either. And I'd remain a loyal customer, the same as if they'd have gone with Option #1 or 3A


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

T5 Dave said:


> Until we positively hear otherwise I'm going to figure there are three possible outcomes to the final decision:
> 
> 1) VW retrofits emissions controls to meet all standards and we can continue to drive our TDI's, or
> 2) VW takes the keys to our TDI's and give us new ones, or
> ...


LOL. You think VW is in a position to replace 500,000 cars with new ones and wants to maintain liens on those 500,000 cars and track the owners until they sell them?


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

spockcat said:


> LOL. You think VW is in a position to replace 500,000 cars with new ones and wants to maintain liens on those 500,000 cars and track the owners until they sell them?


They finance cars all the time and track them just fine. They have an entire finance division set up to do just that.

Also, if CARB and the EPA made them an offer they couldn't refuse and give VW the option to either replace the cars with new ones or pay the $37500 per car fine *plus* $3750 for *each* failed component on every car (making the total fine for each car over $50,000), then which is the cheaper option for VW?

Again, my preference is to keep the cars I already have (Option #1). If they try and foist #3B on me I'm not coming back to VW, ever, no matter how much they think it's "generous."

So, if they implement options 1, 2, or 3A I'll be a repeat customer. If not, I'm gone. If you were Mueller, how much would you be willing to pay for each customer to keep them happy?

Think of Option #2 as an advertising expense.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

T5 Dave said:


> Think of Option #2 as an advertising expense.


Drivers paid for?


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

T5 Dave said:


> Until we positively hear otherwise I'm going to figure there are three possible outcomes to the final decision:
> 
> 1) VW retrofits emissions controls to meet all standards and we can continue to drive our TDI's, or
> 2) VW takes the keys to our TDI's and give us new ones, or
> ...


It might be a mix of these options. Option 1 for those cars which can be fixed with software and/or modest hardware retrofits. Option 2, 3A, or 3B might be their only feasible solution for the early TDIs, those that would need hugely expensive mods to add urea-injection systems. I agree that 3B would leave a lot of owners furious.

There is also an option 4, variations of which have already been discussed in the media. Let TDI owners keep their cars as is, but compel VW to pay for clean air technologies which offset the polluting effects of these cars. This could be buying electric or natural gas powered buses for cities that are most affected by smog and congestion. Or building electric cars and recharging stations, or ???.

Whatever remedy is ordered by the government, here in the US there will still be the class action lawsuits for VW to deal with.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

T5 Dave said:


> They finance cars all the time and track them just fine. They have an entire finance division set up to do just that.


It just doesn't fit within any legal loan or lease arrangement. And keeping track of selling price at some random point in time versus equity in your current car? Too complicated for VW to handle on a mass scale.


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

Much of what has been posted here recently is nothing new, and conforms to what German newspapers have been "printing" for weeks. I.e., VW needs different solutions for different engines and model years, but there is some confusion as to model years because the two Passat engine models need a different treatment with respect to the Golf/ Jetta, and the 6-cyl. appears to have issues, on top of that, and then there are likely Mk5 vs. MkVI Golf / Jetta differences, and yet more differences concerning European models (most importantly, the smallest TDI engines not sold in the US).

I agree that the only solution is to address different engines with varying solution packages, and from what has been published, quite a number of engines even in the US only need a revised hardware component (I assume a beefed-up NO_x trap) and revised programming (which might decrease mileage, slightly - forcing the KIA fuel gift card option?), while others can't be fixed at any reasonable cost. 

As others have said, VW needs to weigh costs associated with fixes and buy-backs with getting EPA goodwill on the possibility of huge fines, while facing the possibility of criminal persecution of high-level employees.

BTW, I love my TDI! :beer:


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

spockcat said:


> It just doesn't fit within any legal loan or lease arrangement. And keeping track of selling price at some random point in time versus equity in your current car? Too complicated for VW to handle on a mass scale.


Oh, so they could figure out how to implement a dual drive mode on the emissions ("drive" mode vs. "test" mode) and they can't figure out how to implement something simple like a contract that has the owner holding a base value and VW holding the rest, and after x months of ownership the title reverts back to the owner?
.
Gaah. If they're that dumb, you're right, I wouldn't want to do business with them.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Prepare to be disappointed, because spockcat is right about the vehicle ownership situation. Personally, I think your suggestion is preposterous, and there is no precedent for any such arrangement. In ALL prior vehicle buy-back situations, it has involved the manufacturer cutting the owner a check. The only question is what the number on that check is. It has typically been some (usually fairly significant) percentage above what the vehicle's fair market value is (as established by KBB or some other similar means). What the former vehicle owner does with that check is up to them.

For people who owe money to the bank against the vehicle, that percentage above the vehicle's fair market value should ensure that the loan can be paid off in practically all cases with something left over. Otherwise, they know people aren't going to go for it.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

What you owe and what the vehicle is worth are mutually exclusive.


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

Phil Pugliese said:


> What you owe and what the vehicle is worth are mutually exclusive.


More importantly, what it is worth to the owner - or, to me. I take good care of my vehicles and keep them 15 - 20 years. Without Dieselgate, there is a reasonable chance I would have happily owned my TDI to my death, or close enough (I am retired). It's a great, frugal and spiffy car with superb sporty and comfortable handling and seems to have zero significant problems, apart from the NO_x conundrum. 

I am pretty sure there *exists no other a car that has similar characteristics and properties I can replace it, with* .


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

feels_road said:


> More importantly, what it is worth to the owner - or, to me. I take good care of my vehicles and keep them 15 - 20 years. Without Dieselgate, there is a reasonable chance I would have happily owned my TDI to my death, or close enough (I am retired). It's a great, frugal and spiffy car with superb sporty and comfortable handling and seems to have zero significant problems, apart from the NO_x conundrum.
> 
> I am pretty sure there *exists no other a car that has similar characteristics and properties I can replace it, with* .


I don't disagree with you, if there is a buyback, what are my options for a vehicle that has all of the attributes of JSW TDI? What car has the capacity, performance, economy, pano roof and manual transmission? ALL the reasons I bought mine for.


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

Phil Pugliese said:


> I don't disagree with you, if there is a buyback, what are my options for a vehicle that has all of the attributes of JSW TDI? What car has the capacity, performance, economy, pano roof and manual transmission? ALL the reasons I bought mine for.


Agreed. I could be mostly satisfied with a gas version of my car. The only problem is that the TSI Golf Sportwagen only comes with a crappy 5-speed manual, and only on the crappy base-model version. WTF VW?


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

R Salesman said:


> Agreed. I could be mostly satisfied with a gas version of my car. The only problem is that the TSI Golf Sportwagen only comes with a crappy 5-speed manual, and only on the crappy base-model version. WTF VW?


When I bought the TDI SW, it was between that and the, at the time, new 6 speed Outback, I chose fuel ecomony over AWD and glad I did. To your point, when will manufacturers understand that people are buying manual transmissions for the experience and not to save money.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

julianv said:


> It might be a mix of these options. Option 1 for those cars which can be fixed with software and/or modest hardware retrofits. Option 2, 3A, or 3B might be their only feasible solution for the early TDIs, those that would need hugely expensive mods to add urea-injection systems. I agree that 3B would leave a lot of owners furious.
> 
> There is also an option 4, variations of which have already been discussed in the media. Let TDI owners keep their cars as is, but compel VW to pay for clean air technologies which offset the polluting effects of these cars. This could be buying electric or natural gas powered buses for cities that are most affected by smog and congestion. Or building electric cars and recharging stations, or ???.
> 
> Whatever remedy is ordered by the government, here in the US there will still be the class action lawsuits for VW to deal with.


Sure, I see Option 4 as a variant of Option 1 where I still get to keep the car and I would not need to spend any more money to keep its expected service life intact. Then I'm not out any money or time to look for something else if they force a buyback.

I just changed oil on the '09 this morning at 90k miles and I'm amazed at how little oil is leaking compared with the previous cars I've owned for this long. I really really don't want to give it up. It runs great. It's paid for. I shouldn't have to make car payments for another 7 to 13 years if this keeps up. That's worth something in its own right. (Money I'm not spending on a replacement car)


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

R Salesman said:


> Agreed. I could be mostly satisfied with a gas version of my car. The only problem is that the TSI Golf Sportwagen only comes with a crappy 5-speed manual, and only on the crappy base-model version. WTF VW?


I was waffling between the TDI and the GTI when I bought mine. Would probably go with the GTI if I had to - that comes closest. With the front LSD then, of course. 

But I have the advantage that I now have another frugal car - I just hope that I can replace my AWD Passt wagon with a Diesel, eventually.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Phil Pugliese said:


> I don't disagree with you, if there is a buyback, what are my options for a vehicle that has all of the attributes of JSW TDI? What car has the capacity, performance, economy, pano roof and manual transmission? ALL the reasons I bought mine for.


GSW TDI 

And it is better in every way 

Assuming of course it sticks around but there is little reason to think if they certify the sold 2015s that they won't put the 2016s back on the market.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW brand boss sees U.S. emissions deal within months, report says*



> BERLIN (Reuters) -- Volkswagen's brand chief Herbert Diess said it will take months rather than weeks to reach an agreement with U.S. regulators on an emissions fix for 600,000 diesel cars, a German newspaper reported.
> 
> U.S. District Judge Charles Breyer last month increased pressure on Volkswagen by setting a March 24 deadline for the carmaker to state whether it has found a fix that is acceptable to U.S. regulators.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW chairman, CEO knew of 'defeat' devices early, report says*



> BERLIN, (Reuters) - Volkswagen Group's current chairman, Hans Dieter Poetsch, and CEO, Matthias Mueller, were alerted by the company's former CEO Martin Winterkorn to the use of illicit emissions-control software in the United States two weeks before the carmaker disclosed the scale of its manipulations, a German newspaper said.
> 
> Winterkorn, who resigned within a week of the emissions scandal becoming public on Sept. 18, briefed VW's executive board on Sept. 8 that the carmaker had admitted the use of "defeat devices" to U.S. authorities, Bild am Sonntag reported, without citing the source of the information.
> 
> ...


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> GSW TDI
> 
> And it is better in every way
> 
> Assuming of course it sticks around but there is little reason to think if they certify the sold 2015s that they won't put the 2016s back on the market.


Yeah, I am not holding my breath for a GSW TDI. Plus I am not in a position to buy a $30K car. Looking to stay payment free.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

spockcat said:


> *VW brand boss sees U.S. emissions deal within months, report says*


VW doesn't seem to understand they don't have months. Defy this judge's order and somebody will end up in contempt. The German legal system may go easy on Aktiengesellschafts but that's not happening here. Yes it's unfair, but that's life.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

classicjetta said:


> VW doesn't seem to understand they don't have months. Defy this judge's order and somebody will end up in contempt. The German legal system may go easy on Aktiengesellschafts but that's not happening here. Yes it's unfair, but that's life.


They may not have months but it still might takes months, VW likely understands that very well even if it means they get held in contempt, the judge is the one who doesn't seem to get it. A fix doesn't magically appear because a judge who doesn't understand what it takes to get the job done demands it get done.


Also they may have a plan in by the date, that doesn't mean the EPA approves it, approval isn't in anyway up to the judge. So again they may fully actually understand what is going on and what I required of them.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

spockcat said:


> "I believe we have good chances to achieve an agreement with the authorities in the United States in the next months," the executive said.


That should make for an interesting March 24. 

Judge: Well, it's the 24th, do you have your solution? 
VW: No, but I believe we have good chances to achieve an agreement with the authorities in the United States in the next months.
Judge: Um... are you ****ting me?


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

chris86vw said:


> They may not have months but it still might takes months, VW likely understands that very well even if it means they get held in contempt, the judge is the one who doesn't seem to get it. A fix doesn't magically appear because a judge who doesn't understand what it takes to get the job done demands it get done.
> 
> 
> Also they may have a plan in by the date, that doesn't mean the EPA approves it, approval isn't in anyway up to the judge. So again they may fully actually understand what is going on and what I required of them.


Yes but they knew for *years* that this was illegal and thus had years to come up with a fix. This is just a deadline to come up with a fix "proposal" it's not something that can't be modified later if engineering determines that it's no feasible for reliability reasons. You can't go into a courtroom and plead ignorance. They don't even have a approved proposal yet after 6 months. They are clearly stalling and the judge called them out on it. If a fix is impossible due to cost constraints VW needs to be on the phone with the EPA/CARB saying "look, what you're asking us to do is not technically feasible, we know we effed up, what do we need to do to resolve this since the cost to fix the cars is too great..."


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

JitteryJoe said:


> Yes but they knew for *years* that this was illegal and thus had years to come up with a fix. This is just a deadline to come up with a fix "proposal" it's not something that can't be modified later if engineering determines that it's no feasible for reliability reasons. You can't go into a courtroom and plead ignorance. They don't even have a approved proposal yet after 6 months. They are clearly stalling and the judge called them out on it. If a fix is impossible due to cost constraints VW needs to be on the phone with the EPA/CARB saying "look, what you're asking us to do is not technically feasible, we know we effed up, what do we need to do to resolve this since the cost to fix the cars is too great..."


Just give it up. There's no point, he knows all. There's a reason I put him on my 'ignore' list. :beer:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

JitteryJoe said:


> Yes but they knew for *years* that this was illegal and thus had years to come up with a fix. This is just a deadline to come up with a fix "proposal" it's not something that can't be modified later if engineering determines that it's no feasible for reliability reasons. You can't go into a courtroom and plead ignorance. They don't even have a approved proposal yet after 6 months. They are clearly stalling and the judge called them out on it. If a fix is impossible due to cost constraints VW needs to be on the phone with the EPA/CARB saying "look, what you're asking us to do is not technically feasible, we know we effed up, what do we need to do to resolve this since the cost to fix the cars is too great..."


Just throwing my 2 cents in, but someone has to play devil's advocate.


This whole line of thinking boils down to who "they" are. Couple that with not being able to prove "they" knew about it. Now, back to the first part. Who are "they"? Line workers? Designers? Engineers? CEO? How far up/down the chain of command does this knowledge go? Does it stop at the managerial level, or does it go higher? Hell, we may never know who "they" are. Despite us knowing that "they" knew about it, we can't prove it. So, the topic of "they had years to fix it cause they knew about it for years before the story broke" is kinda going nowhere.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

JitteryJoe said:


> Yes but they knew for *years* that this was illegal and thus had years to come up with a fix. This is just a deadline to come up with a fix "proposal" it's not something that can't be modified later if engineering determines that it's no feasible for reliability reasons. You can't go into a courtroom and plead ignorance. They don't even have a approved proposal yet after 6 months. They are clearly stalling and the judge called them out on it. If a fix is impossible due to cost constraints VW needs to be on the phone with the EPA/CARB saying "look, what you're asking us to do is not technically feasible, we know we effed up, what do we need to do to resolve this since the cost to fix the cars is too great..."


If I was on firevortex I wouldn't even know who you're quoting!


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

^ Yeah but the latest reports are saying the CEO knew of the cheating since May of 2014 so no matter how you look at it Senior management knew of the issue and have had going on 2 years (at a minimum) to put a fix on the back burner just in case someone found out and forced them to fix the cars.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

JitteryJoe said:


> Yes but they knew for *years* that this was illegal and thus had years to come up with a fix.



Starting on it would have been a further admission of guilt and could be held against them. They were also still placing bets until recently (prior to sept but still recent) that they wouldn't get caught and wouldn't need a fix that would potentially be millions in development and wasted company resources in regards to man hours. Would you have started it?





> This is just a deadline to come up with a fix "proposal" it's not something that can't be modified later if engineering determines that it's no feasible for reliability reasons.


According to the last quote of the judge's exception it is for an approved fixed. They have had numerous proposals that were rejected because they were determined that they wouldn't bring the cars up to compliance. So does the judge want a proposal? they've done that what is his issue with taking too long? or does he want an approved fix? Seems there is some confusion here. 






> You can't go into a courtroom and plead ignorance.


Don't think a single person has claimed anything like that.




> They don't even have a approved proposal yet after 6 months.


And the EPA says right on their site that it could take a year or longer to come up with one. Wanting a solution faster is one thing, but when the group in charge says it is likely to take longer why are posters here and a judge saying that is unacceptable?







> They are clearly stalling and the judge called them out on it.


This is an opinion, according to this thread they are not allowed!! 

They aren't necessarily stalling, it isn't really clear to anyone here or anywhere outside of VW how much effort is being put into it. Simply not having an accepted solution yet does not mean anyone is stalling.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

thegoose said:


> That should make for an interesting March 24.
> 
> Judge: Well, it's the 24th, do you have your solution?
> VW: No, but I believe we have good chances to achieve an agreement with the authorities in the United States in the next months.
> Judge: Um... are you ****ting me?


It should be noted that this is the Judge overseeing the class-action suit against VW. I'm not exactly sure he grasps the issue as he believes that people aren't driving these 'defective' vehicles :laugh:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> Just give it up. There's no point, he knows all. There's a reason I put him on my 'ignore' list. :beer:



You were quite wrong about things that can be verified right on the EPA site, making sure people have the correct information doesn't make someone a know it all. Not sure why anyone would be so proud of being ignorant. 

Our opinions differ, OMG lets cry about it..:thumbdown:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

GoHomeBroke said:


> Just throwing my 2 cents in, but _someone has to play devil's advocate_.


Follow along, discussing what people don't want to hear is in no way allowed here.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> It should be noted that this is the Judge overseeing the class-action suit against VW. I'm not exactly sure he grasps the issue as he believes that people aren't driving these 'defective' vehicles :laugh:


Is it the class action or the government suit?



judges schedule said:


> 3:15-md-02672-CRB - In re: Volkswagen Clean Diesel & Marketing, Sales Practices, and Products Liability Litigation
> Case Management Conference



Would seem like march 24th isn't even remotely about a fix, nor is he involved in that.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

chris86vw said:


> Is it the class action or the government suit?.


Class action, his suit has nothing to do with the EPA.

http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/crb/vwmdl


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> Class action, his suit has nothing to do with the EPA.
> 
> http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/crb/vwmdl


Ah by government I wasn't meaning EPA. But it does appear that there is no government related plaintiff at all in this. Just the class actions :thumbup:


So really when I said the judge shouldn't be making this call since he doesn't have a clue about what it actually takes to come up with a solution, not only does he not have a clue but he also (despite claims here) has no authority to demand a fix period.. Compensation maybe, but not an actual fix.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> You were quite wrong about things that can be verified right on the EPA site, making sure people have the correct information doesn't make someone a know it all. Not sure why anyone would be so proud of being ignorant.
> 
> Our opinions differ, OMG lets cry about it..:thumbdown:


You treat people poorly, so they don't want to talk to you. Is this a _surprise_? Did you not learn that in grade school? I prefer to gather information and put that in my collective knowledge banks and I'd look it up and see what you have right or don't, but because you have been such an ass I don't really care any longer and stuffed you onto my ignore list*. I don't cry about it, but to a large extent I just take jerks out of my life.

I recommend others do the same.



*Sometimes I peek.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

chris86vw said:


> he also (despite claims here) has no authority to demand a fix period.. Compensation maybe, but not an actual fix.


Yeah, he won't resolve anything outside of a payout. I imagine he gave VW to March in case they remedied the issue before he proceeded with the case. If no remedy he'll allow them to be crucified monetarily :laugh:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> You treat people poorly, so they don't want to talk to you.


Sorry but you do as well if you think I do.

You made stuff up, you told people they were on entitled to their opinions on a discussion board. And for no reason continue to make comments and attacks about me (and likely others) personally. You have no foot to stand on in regards to comment on how people treat others, your actions are deplorable. 


The *only* surprise is that you some how think you are better than anyone let alone me.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

GoHomeBroke said:


> Just throwing my 2 cents in, but someone has to play devil's advocate.
> 
> 
> This whole line of thinking boils down to who "they" are. Couple that with not being able to prove "they" knew about it. Now, back to the first part. Who are "they"? Line workers? Designers? Engineers? CEO? How far up/down the chain of command does this knowledge go? Does it stop at the managerial level, or does it go higher? Hell, we may never know who "they" are. Despite us knowing that "they" knew about it, we can't prove it. So, the topic of "they had years to fix it cause they knew about it for years before the story broke" is kinda going nowhere.


I think that the "they" can start in 2007/2008 with a bunch of engineering people at VW who came up with the "solution" to their NOx issues and whomever at a much higher level who must have approved the solution. It isn't like the janitor tossed a Coke bottle into a quarter panel at night while the line was shut down and you got a rattly car. Then the solution was carried over for years even when the engine emissions design changed. That shows some clear knowledge on the part of some pretty senior engineering management. Then the stories about the CEO finding out about the issue in 2014. At that point the company should have started full speed ahead looking for a technical solution. And yet they released 2015 and 2016 models that should be fixable with a relatively simple software change. 

At this point, I suspect that they are delaying because to them more time passing = less buyback costs. The cars decline in value as they age, gain more miles and even crash or break down. Lose $1000 on the value of a car for a years depreciation might not seem much until you multiply that by 500,000 car and you now have $500 million.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

chris86vw said:


> The *only* surprise is that you some how think you are better than anyone let alone me.


I'm better than both of you. There. Now stop fighting :laugh:


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

I like you Emmett.


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

Good to see we've finally got a special thread for lawyers, so they can have their piss fights in the designated area.

Now, if only we could just keep them here for like ever!


----------



## YikeGrymon (Sep 12, 2005)

spockcat said:


> ....At this point, I suspect that they are delaying because to them more time passing = less buyback costs. The cars decline in value as they age, gain more miles and even crash or break down. Lose $1000 on the value of a car for a years depreciation might not seem much until you multiply that by 500,000 car and you now have $500 million.


aaack

VERY good point. I hadn't even thought of that yet.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

thegoose said:


> I like you Emmett.


you're the ONLY one.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

You'reDrunk said:


> you're the ONLY one.


Actually, I like me, so that's two of us.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

GoHomePossum said:


> Actually, I like me


Del?


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

GoHomePossum said:


> Actually, I like me, so that's two of us.


So how do you know which one is you then ?


----------



## DELTUFFO (Oct 27, 2012)

HAHAHAHA

Pontiac caught doing the very same thing with their Super Duty 455 in 1973.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubb...791/looks-like-vw-tried-the-old-sd#Post627791


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW CEO says scandal will inflict substantial financial damage*



> WOLFSBURG (Reuters) -- Volkswagen Group CEO Matthias Mueller said the automaker's diesel emissions scandal will inflict "substantial and painful" financial damage on the company, as board member Stephan Weil warned that he expects more unpleasant news to emerge and German prosecutors said they have widened their investigation.
> 
> It will take years to fully gauge the financial implications of the scandal, Mueller told a gathering of workers at VW's headquarters here today. The implications of the scandal will keep VW busy "for a long time," he said.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW delayed announcing cheating in hope of striking deal, its lawyers say*



> BERLIN/HAMBURG (Reuters) -- Volkswagen's delay in announcing it had cheated U.S. diesel emission tests was a legitimate move aimed at striking a deal with regulators to limit the cost of the scandal, the carmaker's lawyers said in a report to a German court.
> 
> VW admitted to U.S. regulators on Sept. 3 it had used illegal software to disguise levels of toxic emissions, but it was not until Sept. 18 that the matter became public.
> 
> ...


----------



## jerzrunr (Jan 6, 2009)

*If you fine us, you'll lose VW jobs...*

VW's labor chief says big U.S. fines will hit workers' jobs



> Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) *may have to cut jobs in the United States as well as Europe and other countries depending on how big a fine has to be paid for its manipulation of diesel emissions tests*, the carmaker's top labor official told a meeting of 20,000 workers at its German headquarters on Tuesday.
> 
> The U.S. Justice Department has sued Volkswagen (VW) for up to $46 billion for breaching U.S. environmental laws‎, while there is still no fix for nearly 600,000 cars affected in the United States almost six months after the scandal broke.
> 
> ...


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

spockcat said:


> I think that the "they" can start in 2007/2008 with a bunch of engineering people at VW who came up with the "solution" to their NOx issues and whomever at a much higher level who must have approved the solution. It isn't like the janitor tossed a Coke bottle into a quarter panel at night while the line was shut down and you got a rattly car. Then the solution was carried over for years even when the engine emissions design changed. That shows some clear knowledge on the part of some pretty senior engineering management. Then the stories about the CEO finding out about the issue in 2014. At that point the company should have started full speed ahead looking for a technical solution. And yet they released 2015 and 2016 models that should be fixable with a relatively simple software change.
> 
> At this point, I suspect that they are delaying because to them more time passing = less buyback costs. The cars decline in value as they age, gain more miles and even crash or break down. Lose $1000 on the value of a car for a years depreciation might not seem much until you multiply that by 500,000 car and you now have $500 million.


I think the crash/out of commission is valid, but chances are any compensation will be based on pre-scandal value and not current.

Then again it's VW and we're seeing a LOT about how they run their business - maybe that's part of the hold up with EPA.



chris86vw said:


> Starting on it would have been a further admission of guilt and could be held against them. They were also still placing bets until recently (prior to sept but still recent) that they wouldn't get caught and wouldn't need a fix that would potentially be millions in development and wasted company resources in regards to man hours. Would you have started it?


2306 update says they knew and were working on a solution - which was released 1st quarter of 2015 and took time to develop. They knew and the EPA had already informed them. Their bets were placed on the fine not being a large amount because they're a big company.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Looks like the US just called VW's bluff on those "job cuts" threat. VW doesn't appear to realize who they're ****ing with.



> The Journal reported today that the U.S. has issued a subpoena under what’s called the the Financial Institutions Reform, Recovery and Enforcement Act, or “Firrea”, against VW.
> 
> That’s a big deal because the Firrea law allows the Justice Department’s civil attorneys to look back as far as 10 years, and to examine whether lenders themselves were harmed by the financing of VW’s cars—opening the automaker to potentially more penalties.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

GoHomePossum said:


> Looks like the US just called VW's bluff on those "job cuts" threat. VW doesn't appear to realize who they're ****ing with.


All you people who got tax breaks for Clean Diesel now have to pay it back too. 

*
U.S. issues subpoena to VW as emissions probe expands, report says*



> WASHINGTON -- The U.S. Department of Justice has widened its probe into the Volkswagen emissions cheating scandal by tapping a law to combat banking fraud, The Wall Street Journal reported today.
> 
> Citing unnamed sources familiar with the VW investigation, the newspaper reported that the Justice Department has sent VW a subpoena under the Financial Institutions Reform, Recovery and Enforcement Act.
> 
> ...


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

spockcat said:


> All you people who got tax breaks for Clean Diesel now have to pay it back too.


I understand this is a joke - but it's nothing like that, anyway. Many people (and journalists) don't understand that *these TDIs are still extremely clean and frugal vehicles.*

My Golf uses less than 1/2 of the fuel my Passat does, and accordingly it thus puts out _almost _ just 1/2 of the greenhouse gas CO_2. It also has an extremely well-functioning soot filter, while most modern gas engines, in particular turbo engines, spew out huge amounts of soot and are not penalized for that. They are also not penalized for the source-to-car (volatile) hydrocarbon emissions, which Diesels simply don't have.

So, except for under-reported NO_x emissions (clearly a no-no - even though all old Diesels trucks on the road likely emit 10,000 times or more NO_x than all VW Diesels combined), these TDIs are still very green cars that deserve an EPA tax break because of their low fuel requirements and low CO_2 emissions.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

feels_road said:


> Many people (and journalists) don't understand that *these TDIs are still extremely clean and frugal vehicles.*


In other words, any journalist who isn't advocating for the cleanliness of Volkswagen's illegal diesels simply doesn't understand them?

Just because they're not participating in the same PR campaign you are doesn't mean they don't understand what they're writing about.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

feels_road said:


> even though all old Diesels trucks on the road likely emit 10,000 times or more NO_x than all VW Diesels combined


How is anyone supposed to take any of your posts seriously with these drips and drabs of hyperbole strewn about? I know I never do.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

It's a thread with almost 7000 posts and no real information, why would anyone take any of it seriously. When the time comes we'll know, and until then, it's between VW, various governments, and eventually potentially the courts.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

grawk said:


> It's a thread with almost 7000 posts and no real information, why would anyone take any of it seriously. When the time comes we'll know, and until then, it's between VW, various governments, and eventually potentially the courts.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

feels_road said:


> I understand this is a joke - but it's nothing like that, anyway. Many people (and journalists) don't understand that *these TDIs are still extremely clean and frugal vehicles.*
> 
> My Golf uses less than 1/2 of the fuel my Passat does, and accordingly it thus puts out _almost _ just 1/2 of the greenhouse gas CO_2. It also has an extremely well-functioning soot filter, while most modern gas engines, in particular turbo engines, spew out huge amounts of soot and are not penalized for that. They are also not penalized for the source-to-car (volatile) hydrocarbon emissions, which Diesels simply don't have.
> 
> So, except for under-reported NO_x emissions (clearly a no-no - even though all old Diesels trucks on the road likely emit 10,000 times or more NO_x than all VW Diesels combined), these TDIs are still very green cars that deserve an EPA tax break because of their low fuel requirements and low CO_2 emissions.


Hey look, another rabid VW fanatic who:

1) Doesn't know that SMOG (which kills people in absolute terms) and GHG (which might raise sea levels and reduce farming yields some day) are different
2) Doesn't know that every vehicle including trains and Class 8 trucks has emissions limits, and it's certainly not 10,000 higher than VW TDIs
3) Thinks that particulate matter aka soot is not regulated on gasoline engines

In other words, yet another nonsense post that is completely wrong from top to bottom.


----------



## DELTUFFO (Oct 27, 2012)

VW is going belly up.

It's going to be nice to watch.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> 1) Doesn't know that SMOG (which kills people in absolute terms) and GHG (which might raise sea levels and reduce farming yields some day) are different


We get that there's a difference between NOX and CO2, but there's an order of magnitude when looking at it in terms of perspective.

Over 170,000 miles so far, my filthy-spec TDI has emitted about 375 pounds of NOX.
Compared to the gasoline counterpart, it has emitted 45,000 pounds *less* CO2.



> 2) Doesn't know that every vehicle including trains and Class 8 trucks has emissions limits, and it's certainly not 10,000 higher than VW TDIs


And you don't get that light duty diesel passenger cars make up less than 1% of diesel market in the US, and that very few of the larger vehicles/equipment at this time are Tier 3 or 4, so the automobile contribution is essentially meaningless in the grand scheme of things.



> 3) Thinks that particulate matter aka soot is not regulated on gasoline engines


When I watch a cloud of brown soot dump out of a gasoline car's tailpipe when they floor it, I understand that what comes out of the car during the EPA test protocol, and what comes out in the real world are 2 different things.


----------



## Shomegrown (Feb 26, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> 3) Thinks that particulate matter aka soot is not regulated on gasoline engines


Actually GDI soot emissions are a big issue in the industry and a valid point.

The issue is compounded by the fact that the load points that produce soot on GDI engines rarely if ever occur during the FTP tests.

More reading.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

spockcat said:


> All you people who got tax breaks for Clean Diesel *now have VW working on paying that back to the government on your behalf too*


Fixed for you. Do you really think in a million years the IRS is going to audit lawfully owning vehicle owners to get back a tax credit? They will punish VW for it and VW alone. $1,300 per car x a conservative 100,000 vehicles sold in that year equals $130M to be added up on VW's Justice Department tab.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Shomegrown said:


> Actually GDI soot emissions are a big issue in the industry and a valid point.
> 
> The issue is compounded by the fact that the load points that produce soot on GDI engines rarely if ever occur during the FTP tests.
> 
> More reading.


Was just reading something about this also where it showed in a test cell a car would pass the current standards but not the new euro6 (I think it was) standards. On the road though (interesting isn't it) when tested under heavy loads they the particulates went through the roof and the size changed which was a part of the change in particulate count but not volume I guess even though the overall volume went up as well.



I can walk outside and wipe my finger in the tailpipe of my TDI and it will be a lot cleaner than if wipe my finger in the tailpipe of my 2.0T. I've also got no visible soot out of the tailpipe of my TDI and tons out of the tailpipe of my 2.0t (which does run Rs4 injectors and even smoke on stock Rs4). Pretty common to see a puff out of any GDI car on acceleration though and stained bumpers much like an older diesel would have.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Fixed for you. *Do you really think in a million years the IRS is going to audit lawfully owning vehicle owners to get back a tax credit? *They will punish VW for it and VW alone. $1,300 per car x a conservative 100,000 vehicles sold in that year equals $130M to be added up on VW's Justice Department tab.


This guy understood:



feels_road said:


> I understand this is a joke


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

grawk said:


> It's a thread with almost 7000 posts and no real information, why would anyone take any of it seriously. When the time comes we'll know, and until then, it's between VW, various governments, and eventually potentially the courts.


Everyone that posts here are society's experts on everything, didn't you know?


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Meanwhile, I'm just here wanting to get rid of my car...


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

All I have to say is 4 months and almost 10,000 miles later on my Golf TDI I think this was the smartest car purchase I ever made. I spend a fraction of the fuel cost on this car as I do with my Ford Flex. 

Seems like all of the news sensationalism has gone away. Is this still a thing?


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Meanwhile, I'm just here wanting to get rid of my car...


why?


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/henrymi...overnment-waste-fraud-and-abuse/#488009205c89

A bit of light reading on the EPA.


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> http://www.forbes.com/sites/henrymi...overnment-waste-fraud-and-abuse/#488009205c89
> 
> A bit of light reading on the EPA.


"please turn off your add blocker...blah blah"


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

CARB entertaining a partial fix and fining (?) VW:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-volkswagen-repairs-idUSKCN0WB05H



> "Our goal has been to fix the vehicles and return them to their certified configuration as expeditiously as possible," said Todd Sax, chief of the California Air Resources Board enforcement division. "Unfortunately, this may not be possible."
> 
> He said he does not believe there is a fix available that would allow the cars to comply with either the emissions standards or the onboard diagnostic requirements.
> 
> "We will have to decide what the best approach is to dealing with these vehicles, and one of the options potentially would be to accept something less than a full fix," he said.


:banghead: I don't like this at all. I love my TDI but I want my car fixed properly or my money that was taken under fraudulent circumstances refunded.

This sets (or furthers) a precedent that companies can purchase their way out of noncompliance.:thumbdown:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

jreed1337 said:


> "please turn off your add blocker...blah blah"


Forbes has a <5 second ad before you can load the article.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

gti_matt said:


> CARB entertaining a partial fix and fining (?) VW:
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-volkswagen-repairs-idUSKCN0WB05H
> 
> ...


This is something I don't get. The cars are capable of running in full compliance; the test mode proves this. Why not just extend warranties across the emissions sytems to something like 200k per part to cover the longevity issue, rewrite program to exclude crucial bits of the defeat device protocols to keep it in test mode, and call it a day? (For some models, at least)


----------



## ClownCar (Feb 16, 1999)

Michael Horn just got the punt. 

http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-usa-ceo-michael-horn-out-1763871568


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

GoHomeBroke said:


> This is something I don't get. The cars are capable of running in full compliance; the test mode proves this. Why not just extend warranties across the emissions sytems to something like 200k per part to cover the longevity issue, rewrite program to exclude crucial bits of the defeat device protocols to keep it in test mode, and call it a day? (For some models, at least)


Agreed for the most part, although what isn't said one way or another is how performance and MPG would be impacted. In turn that opens the new tangled mess of the cars failing to meet advertised performance and MPG targets. While CA may be happy with the cheat mode on all the time for emissions, VW may very well know that we all then will be doing a new class action suit for failing to meet MPG numbers (sort of like Hyundai a few years ago), as the car would have to be re-tested for a revised EPA figure. It could be that the article mentioned none of that, but VW knows it's a high possiblity.


----------



## chucchinchilla (Dec 25, 2004)

ClownCar said:


> Michael Horn just got the punt.
> 
> http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-usa-ceo-michael-horn-out-1763871568


My comment posted in that article (and something I've brought up here in the past)



> And so the revolving door turns. Let’s look back at the last decade or so of VWoA CEOs...
> 
> Horn - 2014-2016
> 
> ...


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Running in "test mode" all the time probably isn't a viable option for the LNT cars, otherwise they would have done that by now.

It's rather likely that running in "test mode" shortens the life of the system so that it won't survive the 120,000 mile durability requirements, for example.

This is rather plausible, because running the engine with more EGR to reduce engine-out NOx tends to produce more soot, which would either require more frequent regens or drastically shorten the life of the DPF (clogging) or both. And initiating a DPF regen requires running the engine slightly lean so that the exhaust stream contains oxygen that burning off the soot requires - but that produces more engine-out NOx. It's quite conceivable that they can't tune the system to have sufficient DPF regeneration without exceeding the NOx standards.

For a short term once-through of the federal test procedure, it survives being operated in "test mode", but it is entirely conceivable that it cannot operate like that in the long term without DPF consequences.

The SCR cars are another matter, of course. The only real consequence would be increasing AdBlue consumption (by a lot) so that it reaches industry norms of about 3% of the fuel consumption. It's pretty likely that CARB/EPA is holding VW hostage - "you develop a fix for all of them before we will release ANY of them".


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

GoFaster said:


> Running in "test mode" all the time probably isn't a viable option for the LNT cars, otherwise they would have done that by now.
> 
> It's rather likely that running in "test mode" shortens the life of the system so that it won't survive the 120,000 mile durability requirements, for example.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Vicelord said:


> why?


Because it no longer meets my needs/wants.

The specific reason really doesn't matter though, I can't get rid of it without losing my ass, and that isn't my fault. I did nothing to cause the value to drop, yet here I am.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

gti_matt said:


> CARB entertaining a partial fix and fining (?) VW:
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-volkswagen-repairs-idUSKCN0WB05H
> 
> ...


Hmm, what's not to like? If they reach a deal with VW where I can keep the car as is for the next 15 years, even the LNT, then I'm just as well off as I was before this started. Granted, I never intended to sell, so it will impact those that keep the car for only 8 years as resale would have diminished, but in my case I don't care about that as it's cheaper to keep the car for the 20 years as I'd intended to do in the first place. So I'm good with this.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Shomegrown said:


> Actually GDI soot emissions are a big issue in the industry and a valid point.
> 
> The issue is compounded by the fact that the load points that produce soot on GDI engines rarely if ever occur during the FTP tests.
> 
> More reading.


They are still subject to the same standards. For the record, I used to be a die-hard libertarian when I was a very young person, hated the EPA, didn't believe air quality was a real thing, etc. I'm at the point where I don't want any kind of combustion engine to be legal in LDVs before I leave this planet. For race cars, collector cars, etc that's fine. But the 99% of vehicles that are driven every day, I want them all to be electric.

At any rate, PM is already regulated for all LDVs, and it's the same regardless if you run on gasoline, diesel, E10, propane, natural gas, or anything else. One standard for all fuels. If they want to break it out into PM10 & PM2.5 as separate categories, fine. Those standards get updated every 10 years or so anyway. Regulate whatever's needed so that eventually combustion engines go away, and make it happen before 2100; preferably by 2065 at the latest, which _should_ be achievable, at least for LDVs. Medium and heavy duty vehicles will still likely need to rely on combustion engines for decades further, but we can start pushing them out now so that every year sees more progress being made. Banning diesels from LDVs is a good start, since it's so hard to make diesels clean and yet so easy for them to be incredibly dirty, especially when owners start modding them.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Because it no longer meets my needs/wants.
> 
> The specific reason really doesn't matter though, I can't get rid of it without losing my ass, and that isn't my fault. I did nothing to cause the value to drop, yet here I am.


Just making sure you weren't being one of those "omg my car is tainted and now I have to sell it! omgzz!!!!" people.

Since you aren't.... :thumbup:


----------



## Shomegrown (Feb 26, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> They are still subject to the same standards.


Sure, but DPF equipped diesels are so far below the limits, it borders on undetectable. Some diesels actually do blow a 0.0 during the test.

http://www.theicct.org/sites/defaul...WVU_LDDV_in-use_ICCT_Report_Final_may2014.pdf



> "...In general, PM emissions are on the order of 0.01mg/km +/- 0.005mg/km (+/- 1 sigma), thereby nearly 100% (99.89%) below the US-EPA Tier2-Bin5 standard...
> 
> ...even during DPF regeneration events PM emissions levels remain ~27% below the regulatory standard..."


and...

http://papers.sae.org/2015-01-1077/



> ...A PN [particle number] emissions index concept was developed to rank post 2010 model-year vehicles tested relative to a 4-cylinder diesel with DPF, used as the best available technology for low solid particle emissions. GDI engines had the highest PN indices, with up to a factor of 8000 higher for particles larger than 25 nm (Dp > 25 nm) and up to 900 times higher for particles smaller than 25 nm (DP < 25 nm)...."


and last but not least...



> This study presents the differences seen in solid particle number emissions at engine start-up among the modern vehicle fleet. *While all vehicles tested are expected to meet the respective emissions standard in the engine laboratory, there seems to be a drastic difference in their particle emissions performance in the real world under engine start-up. *Lowering the PN emissions index from gasoline engines during engine start-up in future vehicles could be beneficial to the environment and the public as a whole. The priority should be on GDI engines followed by 8-cylinder PFI engines. High efficiency particle filters in engine exhaust such as diesel with DPF provides the best available technology for solid particle reduction, as shown in this work.


Diesel engines are absolutely under the microscope right now. However, if the microscope was turned to gasoline engines, I have no doubt the same doom/gloom argument could be made. Let's not pretend they are rosy clean in the real world outside the standardized certification tests. I place more blame on the testing methodology than the automakers.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

He should hold onto this one for nostalgia, maybe a business card or two.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Because it no longer meets my needs/wants.
> 
> The specific reason really doesn't matter though, I can't get rid of it without losing my ass, and that isn't my fault. I did nothing to cause the value to drop, yet here I am.


If you want a guaranteed residual, lease next time


----------



## ktm8806 (Feb 14, 2005)

Who else was in a position before the scandal that they were planning to trade/sell their vehicle? 

My wife and I were and now we're just sitting on it until it can be traded in for a fair amount or VW compensates. 

2013 GOLF TDI


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

ktm8806 said:


> Who else was in a position before the scandal that they were planning to trade/sell their vehicle?
> 
> My wife and I were and now we're just sitting on it until it can be traded in for a fair amount or VW compensates.
> 
> 2013 GOLF TDI


I am on that list.

2012 was up for sale since I bought a 2015 end of July. The 2015 is perfect and I don't want out of it at all. 2012 I just want to be able to sell it for what I planned to sell it for especially considering I spent a couple weekends detailing the snot out of it and fixing it, new tires etc. Only to then get late sept offer less than the "beater" condition offer I got in july.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

ktm8806 said:


> Who else was in a position before the scandal that they were planning to trade/sell their vehicle?
> 
> My wife and I were and now we're just sitting on it until it can be traded in for a fair amount or VW compensates.
> 
> 2013 GOLF TDI


Not me, I'm good. The '09 just turned 90k miles and should have another 10 years of life in it at this rate. Plus my wife is totally happy with it and does not want another car, especially one powered by gasoline. So I can't complain.

Hopefully an agreement will be made with CARB/EPA soon and you guys can get your compensation package from Feinberg.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

ktm8806 said:


> Who else was in a position before the scandal that they were planning to trade/sell their vehicle?
> 
> My wife and I were and now we're just sitting on it until it can be traded in for a fair amount or VW compensates.
> 
> 2013 GOLF TDI


The worst I've heard of is someone stuck with theirs just after a DSG failure and an estimated $4,000 repair bill. They would have to throw money at it and sell it at a loss once finished unless VW does something for specific "hard luck" cases like that. Even if they do, they're either out of a car or out $4,000 at least temporarily. That will definitely leave a bad taste in their mouths for the brand for their entire lives. Now, if VW bought back something like that as goodwill it could reverse that, but I doubt if VW did that. (I may have even read about that in this thread, but it's been so long now I can't remember.)


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Air and water do mix said:


> The worst I've heard of is someone stuck with theirs just after a DSG failure and an estimated $4,000 repair bill. They would have to throw money at it and sell it at a loss once finished unless VW does something for specific "hard luck" cases like that. Even if they do, they're either out of a car or out $4,000 at least temporarily. That will definitely leave a bad taste in their mouths for the brand for their entire lives. Now, if VW bought back something like that as goodwill it could reverse that, but I doubt if VW did that. (I may have even read about that in this thread, but it's been so long now I can't remember.)


But if that would have happened pre-scandal, wouldn't the value of the car be less than end-of-life transport-value because it would have been non-functional? At that point it's scrap metal unless they choose to fix it, scandal or no.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

gti_matt said:


> Agreed for the most part, although what isn't said one way or another is how performance and MPG would be impacted. In turn that opens the new tangled mess of the cars failing to meet advertised performance and MPG targets. While CA may be happy with the cheat mode on all the time for emissions, VW may very well know that we all then will be doing a new class action suit for failing to meet MPG numbers (sort of like Hyundai a few years ago), as the car would have to be re-tested for a revised EPA figure. It could be that the article mentioned none of that, but VW knows it's a high possiblity.


My theory on the performance and MPG is all I have to go on. Since the EPA is the one doing the estimates that gets slapped on all the posters, coupled with the fact that nearly everyone who drove one claimed they saw higher than the estimate while driving it, I don't think MPG will be negatively affected to the point of people being able to sue over it. Think about it. The EPA estimates the MPG on every car. Every commercial has that "EPA estimated xx MPG" advertisement with it. It had to have been while the car was in test mode. They did the testing, afterall. The performance aspect is really the only question mark, IMO.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

ktm8806 said:


> Who else was in a position before the scandal that they were planning to trade/sell their vehicle?
> 
> My wife and I were and now we're just sitting on it until it can be traded in for a fair amount or VW compensates.
> 
> 2013 GOLF TDI


:wave::thumbdown:


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

Air and water do mix said:


> The worst I've heard of is someone stuck with theirs just after a DSG failure and an estimated $4,000 repair bill.


You see... I was cutting down this tree, and I totally cut the wedge on the wrong side.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

T5 Dave said:


> But if that would have happened pre-scandal, wouldn't the value of the car be less than end-of-life transport-value because it would have been non-functional? At that point it's scrap metal unless they choose to fix it, scandal or no.


But pre-scandal they'd fix it and get 'X' number of $ for it. Post-scandal they have to fix it and get 'X'-15% $ for it*. 

*SWAG "numbers", but the point is sound.



Surf Green said:


> You see... I was cutting down this tree, and I totally cut the wedge on the wrong side.


lulz. :laugh: :beer:


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

GoHomeBroke said:


> The EPA estimates the MPG on every car. Every commercial has that "EPA estimated xx MPG" advertisement with it. It had to have been while the car was in test mode. They did the testing, afterall. The performance aspect is really the only question mark, IMO.


No, the EPA does not (typically) test the car. The EPA tests only spot-checks the vehicles (10-15% of them). The manufacturer usually does following (we hope) a test procedure that is determined by the EPA. Then they submit their results to the EPA.

From the EPA's site itself:
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/how_tested.shtml

This is why Hyundai got nailed a few years ago. Hyundai performed the test and submitted the results but they did something wrong in the test and got caught.

It wouldn't surprise me if any of these changes for any TDI for emissions would mandate a fuel economy re-test given the significantly different state of "factory" tune now.



GoHomeBroke said:


> I don't think MPG will be negatively affected to the point of people being able to sue over it.


Depends on how much it suffers. Granted, in real-world numbers my TDI well exceed the published estimated figures. If it drops but still is at or above them, we won't see any lawsuits there. If it drops a lot though, we now will have a case similar to Hyundai where the vehicles no longer have an estimated MPG that is what was advertisde and consistently fail to get anywhere close to them.

The same might be said for the HP and torque figures. VW has been rumored to overstate these numbers (people have noted their own dyno tests show this) and so as long as the numbers don't drop below what was advertised, then we won't see suits there either.

As long as VW has lots of wiggle-room on understating the MPG numbers and overstating the HP and torque numbers, they at least may have cushioned the blow for themselves there.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

gti_matt said:


> Depends on how much it suffers. Granted, in real-world numbers my TDI well exceed the published estimated figures. If it drops but still is at or above them, we won't see any lawsuits there. If it drops a lot though, we now will have a case similar to Hyundai where the vehicles no longer have an estimated MPG that is what was advertisde and consistently fail to get anywhere close to them.
> 
> The same might be said for the HP and torque figures. VW has been rumored to overstate these numbers (people have noted their own dyno tests show this) and so as long as the numbers don't drop below what was advertised, then we won't see suits there either.
> 
> As long as VW has lots of wiggle-room on understating the MPG numbers and overstating the HP and torque numbers, they at least may have cushioned the blow for themselves there.



Real world numbers actually shouldn't matter. Once the fix is made, I would expect the manufacturer will have to go through the EPA testing procedures again for mpg. They probably also have to go through longevity testing too. Afterall, what good is the fix if it can't last through the EPA required life span. These two things could be the delay we are seeing with the fix or perhaps the reason why CARB didn't approve the fix VW offered a couple of months ago.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

spockcat said:


> Real world numbers actually shouldn't matter. Once the fix is made, I would expect the manufacturer will have to go through the EPA testing procedures again for mpg.


Ford played the "real world doesn't matter" game a few years ago with the C-Max hybrid. The law permits manufacturers to use the same MPG figure for multiple vehicles if it's the same powertrain and largely the same size category of vehicle. As a result, they simply declared that everything with the hybrid powertrain got the same fuel economy. Legal, but totally false by real world values. The government (not sure if it was EPA or NHTSA, since CAFE falls under NHTSA) went after Ford and they had to revise their numbers for all the hybrids and a bunch of non-hybrids not just once, but twice for some models. The government is caring more and more about real world fuel economy and emissions, not just lab tests.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> Ford played the "real world doesn't matter" game a few years ago with the C-Max hybrid. The law permits manufacturers to use the same MPG figure for multiple vehicles if it's the same powertrain and largely the same size category of vehicle. As a result, they simply declared that everything with the hybrid powertrain got the same fuel economy. Legal, but totally false by real world values. The government (not sure if it was EPA or NHTSA, since CAFE falls under NHTSA) went after Ford and they had to revise their numbers for all the hybrids and a bunch of non-hybrids not just once, but twice for some models. The government is caring more and more about real world fuel economy and emissions, not just lab tests.


What I meant by that is just because some owners get better than stated mpg, doesn't mean that VW has to meet those numbers. I would expect that EPA will make them meet the formerly published numbers through standard testing protocol and if they don't then they will have to make up the difference to owners. It is also entirely possible that owners who got better than EPA rated mpg will not get those mpg after the fix. But they really shouldn't have any recourse as long as the vehicles still meet the EPA mpg.

Of course, this whole argument could be moot for many owners if VW goes buyback on some model years that they can't fix economically or timely.


----------



## daunicorn (Apr 20, 2005)

ktm8806 said:


> Who else was in a position before the scandal that they were planning to trade/sell their vehicle?
> 
> My wife and I were and now we're just sitting on it until it can be traded in for a fair amount or VW compensates.
> 
> 2013 GOLF TDI


I was working a deal out with a Diesel colorado when the whole thing went down. I lost 7-10k on my trade in over night. The 3 dealerships I was talking to all changed the trade in valve that day.


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

ktm8806 said:


> Who else was in a position before the scandal that they were planning to trade/sell their vehicle?
> 
> My wife and I were and now we're just sitting on it until it can be traded in for a fair amount or VW compensates.
> 
> 2013 GOLF TDI



Yup, we were actively looking for an SUV, our needs changed and the JSW doesn't work for us anymore. Had it down to 2 or 3 when the news hit. No one wanted to do trade in..well, one said "We can't give you near what it should be worth"

Was really hoping to be in to one before the winter hit... here we are 6 months later.


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

ByronLLN said:


> In other words, any journalist who isn't advocating for the cleanliness of Volkswagen's illegal diesels simply doesn't understand them?
> 
> Just because they're not participating in the same PR campaign you are doesn't mean they don't understand what they're writing about.


Not sure what you are saying or implying. I just tried to clarify where VW failed, heavily and where exactly, and how that relates to environmental concerns, exactly.

You would need to subscribe to absolutely idiotic and imbecile conspiracy theories to think that I am in any way involved with or aligned with any VW PR campaigns - also considering my more than a decade of critical posting record.


----------



## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

What VW did was wrong and foolish...I'll be the first to admit that. But at the same time there are journalists out there blowing this way out of proportion. They practically salivate at the thought of the company going down, and they've influenced some of John Q Public to feel the same way. Then you have those who go as far to claim that the emissions will kill or shorten the lives of X number of people, which is all BS speculation deliberately designed to make VW look as evil as possible. It's just like the EPA's clever use of junk science influencing nonsmokers to view people who smoke tobacco as heinous criminals for even thinking about lighting up in a public place when it was perfectly acceptable 25 years ago. Remember the gas-guzzling behemoth cars of yesteryear? Nobody can tell me that they didn't pollute the air far more, but now fast-forward some 40-50 years later and a VW TDI emitting 10-40 times what an agency playing God decides to dictate as the limit (never mind every other country's air standards being more relaxed) is suddenly as deadly as a loaded gun........


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

Yeah, I mean god help us for wanting to advance based on our new understanding of complex issues. :banghead:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*CARB: Full fix for VW diesels may not be possible *



> U.S. regulators weigh options as diesel fix remains elusive
> 
> A California Air Resources Board official said this week that a complete retrofit for certain diesel Volkswagen models may not be possible, Reuters reports.
> 
> ...


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

fiftysomething said:


> What VW did was wrong and foolish...I'll be the first to admit that. But at the same time there are journalists out there blowing this way out of proportion. They practically salivate at the thought of the company going down, and they've influenced some of John Q Public to feel the same way. Then you have those who go as far to claim that the emissions will kill or shorten the lives of X number of people, which is all BS speculation deliberately designed to make VW look as evil as possible. It's just like the EPA's clever use of junk science influencing nonsmokers to view people who smoke tobacco as heinous criminals for even thinking about lighting up in a public place when it was perfectly acceptable 25 years ago. Remember the gas-guzzling behemoth cars of yesteryear? Nobody can tell me that they didn't pollute the air far more, but now fast-forward some 40-50 years later and a VW TDI emitting 10-40 times what an agency playing God decides to dictate as the limit (never mind every other country's air standards being more relaxed) is suddenly as deadly as a loaded gun........


We've already been down this road with more coherent, near nutcase apologists. Nobody can have a reasonable conversation with anyone posting about an agency "playing God" and saying anyone has compared this scenario to a loaded gun. :facepalm:

And I wonder why or how Trump is doing so well. God forbid we're not all extremists about something 24/7.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

spockcat said:


> *CARB: Full fix for VW diesels may not be possible *


Good news for those of us who want to keep our cars, if it gets through a negotiated agreement with CARB and VW.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> We've already been down this road with more coherent, near nutcase apologists. Nobody can have a reasonable conversation with anyone posting about an agency "playing God" and saying anyone has compared this scenario to a loaded gun. :facepalm:
> 
> And I wonder why or how Trump is doing so well. God forbid we're not all extremists about something 24/7.


I didn't realize in 2006, the California Air Resources Board classified secondhand smoke as a "Toxic Air Contaminant" in the same category as asbestos, cyanide and arsenic. So glad they did. I remember when I first started working after college when someone would light up--I'd just walk out of the office. Took years to get the smokers to move outside. Gaah. 7000 chemicals in the smoke, of which 70 are carcinogenic.

Although I know of two instances when smoking actually *saved* 2 people's lives, once when a guy was at Cape Canaveral and was working on an instrument strapped to a solid rocket motor (upper stage). When they finished what they were doing, he had such a bad nicotine urge he went outside to light up, and the only thing the guys inside had to do was pull the plastic bag over the instrument and the rocket motor. Sure enough, the static from the bag motion lit off the motor and killed everyone inside the room, saving Howard. (Moral of story, use anti-static plastic and seal off the rocket motor so a spark can't light it off before launch.)

The second time was when one guy had to go out in the heavy rain to satisfy his nicotine fix and was the only one who saw another fellow who's heart just stopped as he was running in the rain to move his car. Had the smoker not seen him go down and call 911, the guy would have died in under 5 minutes as there was no one else around dumb enough to be out in that heavy downpour.

Everything else being equal, yes, smokers are evil generators of cancerous toxic fumes that should be ostracized and treated as second-class citizens (IMHO). 

Back on topic. 

Now that Horn is gone, does that mean he (or VW) won't respond to the letter I sent to him 2 weeks ago?


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

T5 Dave said:


> I didn't realize in 2006, the California Air Resources Board classified secondhand smoke as a "Toxic Air Contaminant" in the same category as asbestos, cyanide and arsenic. So glad they did. I remember when I first started working after college when someone would light up--I'd just walk out of the office. Took years to get the smokers to move outside. Gaah. 7000 chemicals in the smoke, of which 70 are carcinogenic.
> 
> Although I know of two instances when smoking actually *saved* 2 people's lives, once when a guy was at Cape Canaveral and was working on an instrument strapped to a solid rocket motor (upper stage). When they finished what they were doing, he had such a bad nicotine urge he went outside to light up, and the only thing the guys inside had to do was pull the plastic bag over the instrument and the rocket motor. Sure enough, the static from the bag motion lit off the motor and killed everyone inside the room, saving Howard. (Moral of story, use anti-static plastic and seal off the rocket motor so a spark can't light it off before launch.)
> 
> ...


That is rich coming from a TDI driver...


----------



## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> We've already been down this road with more coherent, near nutcase apologists. Nobody can have a reasonable conversation with anyone posting about an agency "playing God" and saying anyone has compared this scenario to a loaded gun. :facepalm:
> 
> And I wonder why or how Trump is doing so well. God forbid we're not all extremists about something 24/7.



I stand behind everything I said, apologist or not. That in itself is a label that VW bashers, (particularly those in the Car Lounge), love to use. I prefer to think of myself as a VW loyalist, and I'm not alone. The point of my post is that US air quality standards, along with many other statutes of today, are too rigid. "Dieselgate' would have never existed if not for the EPA in the first place, and I agree that it was stupid of VW to try to fudge their diesel emissions. I would have just given up on the notion of building diesel cars at all once the standards changed. Still, it nevertheless makes for an even bigger field day for VW-haters. It's not just this, either. Every time VWoA's sales dip a bit from the last year, here come the Doomsday Prophets..............not only here, but in the media as well. 

And if anyone wonders why you don't see my name in the CL very much, it's because far too many people that disagree with a point someone makes become hostile trolls.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

You can support VW and also not dying at the same time you know right?


----------



## Stevenk83 (Feb 11, 2013)

ktm8806 said:


> Who else was in a position before the scandal that they were planning to trade/sell their vehicle?
> 
> My wife and I were and now we're just sitting on it until it can be traded in for a fair amount or VW compensates.
> 
> 2013 GOLF TDI


I'm on this list as well. 2011 with 90k miles and has been a nightmare. At the point of when is the next big repair going to happen. Was all set to trade it in at the end of Sept....


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

feels_road said:


> Not sure what you are saying or implying. I just tried to clarify where VW failed, heavily and where exactly, and how that relates to environmental concerns, exactly.
> 
> You would need to subscribe to absolutely idiotic and imbecile conspiracy theories to think that I am in any way involved with or aligned with any VW PR campaigns - also considering my more than a decade of critical posting record.


I don't think you're on the dole, but just about everybody here is more than familiar with your unique brand of "criticism" when it comes to Volkswagen.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Stevenk83 said:


> I'm on this list as well. 2011 with 90k miles and has been a nightmare. At the point of when is the next big repair going to happen. Was all set to trade it in at the end of Sept....


Sorry to hear that. Hope all is resolved soon. I guess my wife and I got 'bad' VW's in the sense they've been far more reliable than just about anything else we've owned.

Oh, but after I discovered that the '09's had the fuel pump self-destruct issue I did have her dump in 4 oz of Stanadyne additive at every fillup and the car has been running pretty much flawlessly.

but it may take a few more months for all this to get worked out with CARB and EPA.

Hang in there. Feel free to vent if you like. We're all in the same boat.


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

spockcat said:


> *CARB: Full fix for VW diesels may not be possible *


Ah ok, it looks like what I predicted about 150 pages ago is turning out to be right.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

chris86vw said:


> You can support VW and also not dying at the same time you know right?


I'd say it isn't so much denying it as it is not being able to see why VW is being slammed so hard and for so much when there's instances of other car companies doing far worse and not getting even half the same flack for it. VW ****ed up, there's no question. The severity of it isn't as bad as past events, but they're being treated like it's the worst one.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

DerSpiegel said:


> Ah ok, it looks like what I predicted about 150 pages ago is turning out to be right.


You and Elon Musk: http://www.takepart.com/open-letter-to-california-air-resources-board-chairman-mary-nichols


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

GoHomeBroke said:


> I'd say it isn't so much denying it as it is not being able to see why VW is being slammed so hard and for so much when there's instances of other car companies doing far worse and not getting even half the same flack for it. VW ****ed up, there's no question. The severity of it isn't as bad as past events, but they're being treated like it's the worst one.


I think VW is getting so much flak because of the way they deceived the regulators, first by doing it in the first place, then denying they did it for a year or more while CARB was investigating, then finally coming clean. In the GM ignition switch problem, an engineer and his boss discovered the problem and issued a fix using the exact same part numbers because they were too lazy to get new ones and alert the upper echelons to the problem. So that was more of an incompetence and corporate culture that led to 135 deaths. VW was more deliberate in that it took an awful lot of people for almost 10 years to keep it deliberately hidden, hence the visceral reaction from the feds (and press) when it finally came to light.

Yeah, the extra NOx didn't kill as many people directly like the ignition switch, it was just the way VW lied about it that got under everyone's skin . . .


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

feels_road said:


> Not sure what you are saying or implying. I just tried to clarify where VW failed, heavily and where exactly, and how that relates to environmental concerns, exactly.
> 
> You would need to subscribe to absolutely idiotic and imbecile conspiracy theories to think that I am in any way involved with or aligned with any VW PR campaigns - *also considering my more than a decade of critical posting record*.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!:laugh:

That's hilarious. I needed a good laugh to get this boring Friday moving along. You're a notorious VW troll, anyone who remembers your "Golf TDI sports car handling" incessant posts, your diesel beats all pots, etc, knows how you operate.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> Yeah, the extra NOx didn't kill as many people directly like the ignition switch, it was just the way VW lied about it that got under everyone's skin . . .


Plus it's important to remember that death isn't some kind of magical bar that must be crossed. If somebody steals cars, they aren't killing or even physically hurting anyone, but they are still a car thief, and still need to be punished.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Saxy Carbman said:


> VW will need to mitigate the environmental harm done by vehicles remaining on the roads by paying a fine


I'm shocked, SHOCKED, that they'd sooner take a payout than get these horrible polluting deathtraps off our roads! Won't someone please think of the children!


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

T5 Dave said:


> I think VW is getting so much flak because of the way they deceived the regulators, first by doing it in the first place, then denying they did it for a year or more while CARB was investigating, then finally coming clean. In the GM ignition switch problem, an engineer and his boss discovered the problem and issued a fix using the exact same part numbers because they were too lazy to get new ones and alert the upper echelons to the problem. So that was more of an incompetence and corporate culture that led to 135 deaths. VW was more deliberate in that it took an awful lot of people for almost 10 years to keep it deliberately hidden, hence the visceral reaction from the feds (and press) when it finally came to light.
> 
> Yeah, the extra NOx didn't kill as many people directly like the ignition switch, it was just the way VW lied about it that got under everyone's skin . . .





> In the GM ignition switch problem, an engineer and his boss discovered the problem and issued a fix using the exact same part numbers because they were too lazy to get new ones and alert the upper echelons to the problem.


Unlike VW, GM took a huge amount of tax payer money in that bailout while this ignition issue was still going on. I'm not making light of what VW did, I'm saying if there's a scale for fraud committed by car manufacturers while lying to the US people and their government, GM > VW in that stable.


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

GoHomeBroke said:


> Unlike VW, GM took a huge amount of tax payer money in that bailout while this ignition issue was still going on. I'm not making light of what VW did, I'm saying if there's a scale for fraud committed by car manufacturers while lying to the US people and their government, GM > VW in that stable.


You know that VW lied to governments in Europe as well? And that VW is heavily subsidized by the German government?


----------



## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

GoHomeBroke said:


> I'd say it isn't so much denying it as it is not being able to see why VW is being slammed so hard and for so much when there's instances of other car companies doing far worse and not getting even half the same flack for it. VW ****ed up, there's no question. The severity of it isn't as bad as past events, but they're being treated like it's the worst one.


This! :thumbup:


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

DerSpiegel said:


> Ah ok, it looks like what I predicted about 150 pages ago is turning out to be right.


I don't think CARB/EPA will accept partial fixes. I watched the CA legislative hearing (everyone should) and took away these key points: VW does not have a fix for ANY generation TDI engine, and CARB wants a full buy back. There was one point where Todd Sax made the comment about partial fix (partial compliance), but it was taken completely out of context. I can't believe the media hasn't picked up on everything else he said. They are not going to back down. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Smigelski said:


> You know that VW lied to governments in Europe as well? And that VW is heavily subsidized by the German government?


Really? 

youdontsay.jpg

Too bad the US government can't add that on to the list of crap to charge them for. 

GM took that money and didn't look back. They knew the ignition switches could cause fatal injuries, but they kept quiet to keep from going under. IMO, the blood of everyone they killed, and the lives of every family affected stains every car made from 2000 and up. It's why I will never own one, no matter how much I like it. But that's the personal side of it. 

VW lied about an emissions system that puts out a chemical with almost no effect on the environment, but it is fatal to people (if they huff the pipe like they're vaping).

To drum up moral outrage from people who just don't know better, reports started coming out that is literally nothing more than postulation and guess work of a miniscule number of extra people that might die per year because of the NOx affecting preexisting conditions. A far cry from the healthy, young, and otherwise vibrant people being killed by GM, but people still buy into the bull****.

VW lied to their customers. VW lied to the US government, and governments abroad. That is what they're being punished for. This "polluted the environment" **** is just the story they're selling us. The scale of their lies are massive and punishment must be severe enough to discourage foreign companies from lying to, and thus defrauding, the US Government. I trust the EPA and the US government to hand them a punishment fitting of their crimes less than I trust a fart after binging on Taco Bell covered in Ex Lax and Fire Sauce. 

/rant

Note: This isn't aimed at you. The rant just came outta nowhere after my smartass comment. :beer:


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

jen_madcity said:


> I don't think CARB/EPA will accept partial fixes. I watched the CA legislative hearing (everyone should) and took away these key points: VW does not have a fix for ANY generation TDI engine, and CARB wants a full buy back. There was one point where Todd Sax made the comment about partial fix (partial compliance), but it was taken completely out of context. I can't believe the media hasn't picked up on everything else he said. They are not going to back down.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Link for the legislative hearing?


----------



## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

T5 Dave said:


> I didn't realize in 2006, the California Air Resources Board classified secondhand smoke as a "Toxic Air Contaminant" in the same category as asbestos, cyanide and arsenic. So glad they did. I remember when I first started working after college when someone would light up--I'd just walk out of the office. Took years to get the smokers to move outside. Gaah. 7000 chemicals in the smoke, of which 70 are carcinogenic.
> 
> 
> Everything else being equal, yes, smokers are evil generators of cancerous toxic fumes that should be ostracized and treated as second-class citizens (IMHO).


Not CARB, but the EPA in early 1993. They cherry-picked the most damning "studies" they could find and then had to change the definition of just what a 'Class A" carcinogen was so that SHS could be included on their list. The anecdotal evidence of tens of millions of people who grew up in smoking households for decades before (and after) this 'Report' that remain healthy today easily trumps bogus research funded by those who are hell-bent on a smoke-free-society. That's my take. But worry not, for smokers are indeed treated as second-class citizens, thanks to a combination of clever brainwashing and sheer apathy on the part of smokers to stand up for themselves. 

But on topic, I used this comparison to show how "evil" people think Volkswagen is for violating standards that were well within acceptable ranges until CARB (or the EPA, or Both) decided to make them tougher. Meanwhile, GM killed 125 or so people. One can "estimate" how many people have lower lifespans due to VW's emissions just as one can "estimate " how many die from SHS, but there is not nor will there ever be an iota of proof that a single person has died from either.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

jen_madcity said:


> I *can't* believe the media hasn't picked up on everything else he said.


Did you mean can?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

fiftysomething said:


> for smokers are indeed treated as second-class citizens,


Good lets add fat people too, fat smokers can be third class 


I was accused of claiming VW did nothing wrong, despite never saying that one single time. So I won't make any claims that you are saying smoking is perfectly fine and healthy if you aren't, but are you?


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

spockcat said:


> Real world numbers actually shouldn't matter.


Yes they do, indirectly.



spockcat said:


> What I meant by that is just because some owners get better than stated mpg, doesn't mean that VW has to meet those numbers.


Correct.

What I'm saying is that since currently most TDIs get significantly better MPG than the current EPA numbers, that actually buys VW more wiggle room on any emissions fix that might hurt MPG.

I can get 50+ mpg on the freeway easily now. if that falls to 42mpg post-fix (say, a drop of about 20%), VW is still a-ok.

But if I originally got only about 45mpg and that fell to 36mpg post-fix while the EPA number of 42mpg is still out there, the car is very blatantly failing to live up to its advertised efficiency.


----------



## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> Good lets add fat people too, fat smokers can be third class
> 
> 
> I was accused of claiming VW did nothing wrong, despite never saying that one single time. So I won't make any claims that you are saying smoking is perfectly fine and healthy if you aren't, but are you?


Not at all. I'm at a higher risk for lung/throat cancer, COPD, and heart disease, and made the decision to smoke, anyway. I just don't believe other people's smoke is harmful to nonsmokers. It may be annoying and smell unpleasant, but as for nearby nonsmokers ingesting passive tobacco smoke, it amounts to a minuscule fraction of 1 percent and would therefore take centuries of constant exposure to even come close to what a full-fledged smoker takes in. What I believe happened is that somewhere down the line, some group of avid nonsmokers were either offended by the smell or pissed off that someone they knew died from a smoking-related cause (or both) and pressured the government to step in and convince smokers that they were not only harming themselves, but also everyone around them. If unsound science had to be employed to achieve this goal, then so be it. And it worked, because if you are a smoker under the age of about 40 or so, you've known nothing but public bans. To me, saying that SHS is harmful is like saying that if you eat a red-hot burrito and fart downwind of someone else, he or she will get heartburn.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

^^^ So your statement is that you know smoke is deadly when it goes into your body, but you "believe" that it suddenly is totally safe once it comes out of it? You cite zero scientific evidence, and instead say there's a vast government conspiracy to declare smoking is dangerous when you believe that it's really totally safe. You write a bunch of words, but have no science at all, just conspiracy theories and accusing anyone who disagrees with you of trying to take away your freedom. You fit right in here with the TDI defenders. :thumbup:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

fiftysomething said:


> I just don't believe other people's smoke is harmful to nonsmokers.


Ok got it...





> And it worked, because if you are a smoker under the age of about 40 or so, you've known nothing but public bans.


Going to say not true. 

I'm 36.

I recall a Mcdonalds in the town I grew up in less than 30 years ago having about 4 tables for non smoking and the rest of the restaurant except for standing inline was smoking. 

I recall ashtrays in the doctors office exam rooms. (they could have filmed mad men in my early childhood Drs office  )


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

vwwtchr said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!:laugh:
> 
> That's hilarious. I needed a good laugh to get this boring Friday moving along. You're a notorious VW troll, anyone who remembers your "Golf TDI sports car handling" incessant posts, your diesel beats all pots, etc, knows how you operate.


All of this. :thumbup:

Edit: I made.a.conscious decision not to address fiftysomething anymore. I get paid to deal with stupid, I'm not doing it for free here.


----------



## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> Ok got it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I meant if you were at least the age most smokers start, unless you were smoking at that McDs at age 6.  Bans really gained momentum after the EPA Report of 1993. Ironically, that report was ruled invalid in 1998 by a Federal judge, and that should have been the end of it, but it wasn't.


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

fiftysomething said:


> Not at all. I'm at a higher risk for lung/throat cancer, COPD, and heart disease, and made the decision to smoke, anyway. I just don't believe other people's smoke is harmful to nonsmokers. It may be annoying and smell unpleasant, but as for nearby nonsmokers ingesting passive tobacco smoke, it amounts to a minuscule fraction of 1 percent and would therefore take centuries of constant exposure to even come close to what a full-fledged smoker takes in. What I believe happened is that somewhere down the line, some group of avid nonsmokers were either offended by the smell or pissed off that someone they knew died from a smoking-related cause (or both) and pressured the government to step in and convince smokers that they were not only harming themselves, but also everyone around them. If unsound science had to be employed to achieve this goal, then so be it. And it worked, because if you are a smoker under the age of about 40 or so, you've known nothing but public bans. To me, saying that SHS is harmful is like saying that if you eat a red-hot burrito and fart downwind of someone else, he or she will get heartburn.


The laws were not really passed to protect someone sitting next to you at a bar or restaurant or wherever, but to give legal leverage in order to protect the employees of those places who were exposed to it 8 hours a day, 5-6 days a week or more. I know that goes against your simplistic view of government=evil, but that's the truth of it.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

fiftysomething said:


> I just don't believe other people's smoke is harmful to nonsmokers.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

AZGolf said:


> ^^^ So your statement is that you know smoke is deadly when it goes into your body, but you "believe" that it suddenly is totally safe once it comes out of it? You cite zero scientific evidence, and instead say there's a vast government conspiracy to declare smoking is dangerous when you believe that it's really totally safe. You write a bunch of words, but have no science at all, just conspiracy theories and accusing anyone who disagrees with you of trying to take away your freedom. You fit right in here with the TDI defenders. :thumbup:


Make it easy on yourself. Just add him to the ban list with Chris86, Zuk, Jimp, and a million other people who just want to argue, and won't accept actual information and instead their "feeling" trumps all. See: I don't "feel" like second hand smoke is bad.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

vwwtchr said:


> Make it easy on yourself. Just add him to the ban list with Chris86, Zuk, Jimp, and a million other people who just want to argue, and won't accept actual information and instead their "feeling" trumps all. See: I don't "feel" like second hand smoke is bad.


Just so we are clear the reason you are so bent out of shape and for some reason repeatedly bring my name up unproved is because you *FEEL* that a cheat device is one thing and I proved the EPA _*DEFINES*_ a defeat device as something else entirely (and exactly what I said it was) but you refuse to accept that? That is the gist of this right? 

Based on your recent post you should put yourself on your ban list.


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

DerSpiegel said:


> Link for the legislative hearing?


http://calchannel.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=7&clip_id=3430

Well worth your time. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

chris86vw said:


> Just so we are clear the reason you are so bent out of shape and for some reason repeatedly bring my name up unproved is because you *FEEL* that a cheat device is one thing and I proved the EPA _*DEFINES*_ a defeat device as something else entirely (and exactly what I said it was) but you refuse to accept that? That is the gist of this right?
> 
> Based on your recent post you should put yourself on your ban list.


You do know you're the only that feels you've "proved" (sic) anything, right? I'm not sure that alone makes it true.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> You do know you're the only that feels you've "proved" (sic) anything, right? I'm not sure that alone makes it true.


So the EPA incorrectly defined a defeat device in their own regulations?

Just want to make sure that we are clear on what I'm allegedly wrong about.



ETA, interesting that providing the text and link to the actual EPA definition is now not proof of the definition. :screwy:


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

spockcat said:


> *CARB: Full fix for VW diesels may not be possible *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I proposed something similar in September of last year, in a post to this forum and in letters to various entities. But I suspect Elon Musk and his corporate buddies have more influence than I do.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7249811-Dieselgate-consequences-and-strategies-for-TDI-owners


----------



## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

I left this site a long time ago and returned hoping that the trollish comments would have somehow disappeared but I can plainly see they haven't. If anyone disagrees with you, civil discussion is still taboo. You're still a moron that should be banned, no questions asked. The Car Lounge hasn't changed at all. I really should have known better, I guess................


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

vwwtchr said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!:laugh:
> 
> That's hilarious. I needed a good laugh to get this boring Friday moving along. You're a notorious VW troll, anyone who remembers your "Golf TDI sports car handling" incessant posts, your diesel beats all pots, etc, knows how you operate.


I stepped away from this thread for quite some time. Glad some are still fighting the good fight.

Well done, sir.


Also - good to know gohome is still all over GM's knob.

Carry on.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

vwwtchr said:


> Or just add him to the ignore list like all the other trolls who try to ruin threads with circular arguments that go nowhere (see: JIMP, Zukiphile, etc)





vwwtchr said:


> Make it easy on yourself. Just add him to the ban list with Chris86, Zuk, Jimp, and a million other people who just want to argue, and won't accept actual information and instead their "feeling" trumps all.


Are you campaigning for the same office as Zuki and JIMP? :laugh:


----------



## TigerinColorado (Jul 16, 2007)

fiftysomething said:


> I left this site a long time ago and returned hoping that the trollish comments would have somehow disappeared but I can plainly see they haven't. If anyone disagrees with you, civil discussion is still taboo. You're still a moron that should be banned, no questions asked. The Car Lounge hasn't changed at all. I really should have known better, I guess................


Highly recommend the ignore feature in your settings. It is by far the best way to have an enjoyable experience here. eace:

:thumbup:You don't even see their comments.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

vwwtchr said:


> Make it easy on yourself. Just add him to the ban list with Chris86, Zuk, Jimp, and a million other people who just want to argue, and won't accept actual information and instead their "feeling" trumps all. See: I don't "feel" like second hand smoke is bad.


This is why those same characters group over at that politics board secure in their shared know-nothing-conservative-trump-sucking-pailin-whorshipping bubble. :laugh:


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

Don't know if this has been posted yet, but:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertels...er-code-well-after-being-caught/#15b33c0169aa

Pretty ballsy to improve your cheat device after you've been caught, while denying it's there.. isn't it?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

JohnNS said:


> Don't know if this has been posted yet, but:
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertels...er-code-well-after-being-caught/#15b33c0169aa
> 
> Pretty ballsy to improve your cheat device after you've been caught, while denying it's there.. isn't it?


That's awesome:



Forbes said:


> Volkswagen AG further “improved” its defeat device software long after the German automaker came into the crosshairs of Californian regulator CARB, research of the investigative co-op of Germany’s Süddeutsche Zeitung and the NDR and WDR TV stations shows. “Unbeknownst to U.S. regulators, Volkswagen developers augmented the illegal defeat device with a software update,” NDR says. According to the researchers, this improvement happened around the end of 2014, or beginning of 2015, with the aim of a more efficient cheat.
> 
> According to the report, the previous version of the cheater code was fraught with false positives; it sometimes signaled that the car was under supervision on the dyno while in fact it was on the road with nobody watching. This would have led to the exhaust being treated, at least occasionally. *“This caused the car to erroneously switch into clean test mode, and it led to increased wear on the particulate filter,”* the report continues. To fix that, the new software version also monitored movements of the steering wheel, the report says. “This reliably detected that the car was on the road, and the exhaust gas treatment could be reduced.”


This is fantastic. A lot of people mentioned how VW issued a couple updates to the ECU prior to being caught, but I didn't realize those updates were simply to make it cheat even more often! High Five, VW!


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

fiftysomething said:


> I left this site a long time ago and returned hoping that the trollish comments would have somehow disappeared but I can plainly see they haven't. If anyone disagrees with you, civil discussion is still taboo. You're still a moron that should be banned, no questions asked. The Car Lounge hasn't changed at all. I really should have known better, I guess................


Nobody called for your ban or called you a moron. You got questioned/called out for some oddish conspiracy theory crap. I'd imagine you already know if you express those views they're not going to go down lightly.


----------



## MurrayBowles (Jan 28, 2016)

*onboard diagnostic requirements?*



spockcat said:


> *CARB: Full fix for VW diesels may not be possible *


Does anyone know what the "or the onboard diagnostic requirements" part is about?


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

fiftysomething said:


> I left this site a long time ago and returned hoping that the trollish comments would have somehow disappeared but I can plainly see they haven't. If anyone disagrees with you, civil discussion is still taboo. You're still a moron that should be banned, no questions asked. The Car Lounge hasn't changed at all. I really should have known better, I guess................


I dunno, this forum has never rewarded the thin-skinned....that's part of the deal. You might not be wired for it, no shame in that. eace:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

DerSpiegel said:


> I dunno, this forum has never rewarded the thin-skinned....that's part of the deal.


I dunno, it has the much publicized 'ignore' function.


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

DerSpiegel said:


> I dunno, this forum has never rewarded the thin-skinned....that's part of the deal. You might not be wired for it, no shame in that. eace:


I do not know, back in the late 90s-early 2000s it was rather soft. But between ~2002-2005 it became a little more hardcore in a sense.


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

ByronLLN said:


> I don't think you're on the dole, but just about everybody here is more than familiar with your unique brand of "criticism" when it comes to Volkswagen.


Then let *"them"* speak.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

DerSpiegel said:


> I dunno, *the internet* has never rewarded the thin-skinned....that's part of the deal. You might not be wired for it, no shame in that. eace:


FTFY


----------



## Chmeeee (Jun 24, 2002)

feels_road said:


> Then let *"them"* speak.


Dude when you write about VW, you sound like a PR department.


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

Chmeeee said:


> Dude when you write about VW, you sound like a PR department.


VW has a PR department?


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

JohnNS said:


> VW has a PR department?


I laff'd. :laugh:


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

Chmeeee said:


> Dude when you write about VW, you sound like a PR department.


That may be true - but not because I'm associated with any car manufacture's PR department - let lone VW's.  :beer:

And, never, ever shoot the messenger.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> I'd say it isn't so much denying it as it is not being able to see why VW is being slammed so hard and for so much when there's instances of other car companies doing far worse and not getting even half the same flack for it. VW ****ed up, there's no question. The severity of it isn't as bad as past events, but they're being treated like it's the worst one.


It kind of is. Not morally, necessarily, but if you consider how many state and national governments whose individual laws got broken by how many individual cars, and how many consumers are involved, and the nature of the regulations that got broken...that's pretty enormous, even if it doesn't amount morally to the same thing as causing a dozen or two deaths. And it's also fairly unprecedented for a company to, as a matter of course and policy, to so matter-of-factly break a critical regulation like this - it wasn't a division manager and a few rotten cronies covering their asses, it went straight to the C-suite.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

fiftysomething said:


> I just don't believe other people's smoke is harmful to nonsmokers. .


You don't have to believe it. That's why we have science.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

feels_road said:


> Not sure what you are saying or implying. I just tried to clarify where VW failed, heavily and where exactly, and how that relates to environmental concerns, exactly.
> 
> *You would need to subscribe to absolutely idiotic and imbecile conspiracy theories to think that I am in any way involved with or aligned with any VW PR campaigns - also considering my more than a decade of critical posting record.*





Chmeeee said:


> Dude when you write about VW, *you sound like a PR department*.





feels_road said:


> *That may be true* - but not because I'm associated with any car manufacture's PR department - let lone VW's.  :beer:
> 
> And, never, ever shoot the messenger.


Do you enjoy embarrassing yourself with contradictions?


----------



## Tornado2dr (Mar 31, 2001)

Turbio! said:


> You don't have to believe it. That's why we have science.


I heart you so much. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BeBop! (Jun 18, 2009)

Turbio! said:


> You don't have to believe it. That's why we have science.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Turbio! said:


> for a company to, as a matter of course and policy, to so matter-of-factly break a critical regulation like this - it wasn't a division manager and a few rotten cronies covering their asses, it went straight to the C-suite.


Is this really such a gut punch surprise? VW cheated/played teh system, and so many people are shocked that it happened. Human beings, on average, are greedy and lazy. Human beings, on average, run companies, whose sole purpose in life is to make money as easily as possible. The essential goal is greed and sloth here folks :laugh:


The EPA provided the guidelines, allowed the companies to police themselves, and took them at their word by certifying every single clean diesel car on the road today. If you don't police the laws, and the human being/company knows this, what do you expect to happen?

Think of it this way, we all (most of us under the age of 65) speed to some degree on public roads, even knowing the police are out there to enforce this *law*, what if you had a speed limit yet no cops on the road to enforce it? Would you expect a human being, on average, to police themselves?

Every company when up against a regulatory roadblock asks three questions; 1) what will this cost us? (i.e. if I don't speed I'll lose X number of hours driving rather than [insert hobby here]) 2) what will happen if we are caught? (i.e. If caught speeding I will have fines and possible loss of license) 3) What's the least (read: most inexpensive way) we can do to comply? (i.e. I can speed ten miles per hour over the posted sign and will not get fined as it is a zero point offence and the law enforcers don't waste time on it). 

If you think this is a VWintrinsic scenario, I've got an Ipad made by Chinese child labour for you to buy :laugh:


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Do you enjoy embarrassing yourself with contradictions?


Any contradictions you sense are apparently caused by your reading and/ or comprehension disabilities - or a lack of effort.

I remember the time when your comments at least appeared to be thoughtful and had a chance to contribute to the general discussion.

Now you just respond to comments of comments in a quick, volatile, ill-informed and incendiary fashion.

That's not what vortexmedia 3.0 was supposed to be. :thumbdown:


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

feels_road said:


> Any contradictions you sense are apparently caused by your reading and/ or comprehension disabilities - or a lack of effort.
> 
> I remember the time when your comments were thoughtful and contributed to the general discussion.
> 
> ...


:laugh::laugh:

Quoting for posterity. Nice deflection, PR man.


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> :laugh::laugh:
> 
> Quoting for posterity. Nice deflection, PR man.


Deflection from what? 

BTW, I have been involved in PR of science, science education, and the application of AI and patient online services in medical fields.

I have no relations to any automobile manufacture or the VW group, in particular.

What is your point? Do you have any, apart from senseless insults or demagogy?


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

feels_road said:


> Any contradictions you sense are apparently caused by your reading and/ or comprehension disabilities - or a lack of effort.


What helped me "sense" your contradictions was reading them after he quoted them. #sciencebitches


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

julianv said:


> I proposed something similar in September of last year, in a post to this forum and in letters to various entities. But I suspect Elon Musk and his corporate buddies have more influence than I do.
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7249811-Dieselgate-consequences-and-strategies-for-TDI-owners


I posted (roughly) the same thing in this thread on 10/08/15 without seeing the thread you started. I still think it's a good idea.


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> What helped me "sense" your contradictions was reading them after he quoted them. #sciencebitches


So, you are agreeing then that he created a sense of such false "contradictions" by his quotations?


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

I heard something about the VW isn't going to do anything to fix the cars. They simply just won't be compliant. And VW won't be buying the back, rather just paying a fine for every vehicle on the road that isn't compliant. 

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/news/a28423/carb-fixing-vws-dirty-diesels-may-be-impossible/

opcorn:


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

feels_road said:


> So, you are agreeing then that he created a sense of such false "contradictions" by his quotations?


Uh, no. His quotations show you to be a flip-flopper. T'is the season for it. :wave:


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

In the end, there are still people in this forum, despite of efforts to clean up, who are instigating senseless adversities or trying to create and emphasize extreme differences when and where they don't really exist, or who try to associate members with particular manufacturers or even their PR machinery outside what is real and really existent (i.e., actively promulgating conspiracy theories).

There are some eerie parallels to Donald Trump's political handbook of how to blame advocates of open discourse, and the messengers of freely flowing information, by associating them with the "enemy." - whatever that is.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

aj4066 said:


> I heard something about the VW isn't going to do anything to fix the cars. They simply just won't be compliant. And VW won't be buying the back, rather just paying a fine for every vehicle on the road that isn't compliant.
> 
> http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/news/a28423/carb-fixing-vws-dirty-diesels-may-be-impossible/
> 
> opcorn:


Well if they don't pass emissions, and I'm keeping it, I'm spending my gift card on a Malone tune and deleting all the bull**** that really doesn't work anyway. :laugh: and this will be my last VW.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

feels_road said:


> In the end, there are still people in this forum, despite of efforts to clean up, who are instigating senseless adversities or trying to create and emphasize extreme differences when and where they don't really exist, or who try to associate members with particular manufacturers or even their PR machinery outside what is real and really existent (i.e., actively promulgating conspiracy theories).
> 
> There are some eerie parallels to Donald Trump's political handbook of how to blame advocates of open discourse, and the messengers of freely flowing information, by associating them with the "enemy." - whatever that is.


There are a whole bunch of people out to get you, and _they're_ the ones with the conspiracy theories?


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Uh, no. His quotations show you to be a flip-flopper. T'is the season for it. :wave:


Flip-flop on what, exactly?

I have asked for clarifications from the original poster who vaguely criticized me, to the follow-up bandwagon poster, to the third and to you.

Crickets.

Poor show.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

feels_road said:


> In the end, there are still people in this forum, despite of efforts to clean up, who are instigating senseless adversities or trying to create and emphasize extreme differences when and where they don't really exist, or who try to associate members with particular manufacturers or even their PR machinery outside what is real and really existent (i.e., actively promulgating conspiracy theories).
> 
> There are some eerie parallels to Donald Trump's political handbook of how to blame advocates of open discourse, and the messengers of freely flowing information, by associating them with the "enemy." - whatever that is.


You have your head so far up your own fantasy world it's not even funny.

You're the only person (aside from the run-of-the-mill troll) to ever accuse me of such things. Shouldn't that make you look in the mirror? Every time something comes up like this, it's the same story from you every time. I'm FAR from the only person here to observe the same pattern of contradictions and general obliviousness.

I was genuinely into this story, as I was one of the people duped into buying one of these crappy rigs.


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

ByronLLN said:


> There are a whole bunch of people out to get you, and _they're_ the ones with the conspiracy theories?


That's the way it usually has worked, in history.

Also, it would be nice to know why anyone "is out to get me." 

Besides the usual misguided syndromes of the masses, it would be good to know any specifics, none of which have ever been mentioned in this thread or another.

You guys (and barely none, if it matters to mention, gals) still don't get that I have absolutely no clue what this misguided attack on me is about, other than discrediting you, and at the worst having your accounts being scratched.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

ByronLLN said:


> There are a whole bunch of people out to get you, and _they're_ the ones with the conspiracy theories?


What he posted. :thumbup:



feels_road said:


> Flip-flop on what, exactly?
> 
> I have asked for clarifications from the original poster who vaguely criticized me, to the follow-up bandwagon poster, to the third and to you.
> 
> ...


What part of his quotes of yours were unclear? You say one thing in one post, and contradict yourself in the next. That's the definition of a flip-flopper, yet you bring Trump into this. Personally, I don't like either of you as you're opposite sides of the same coin. IMO, of course. :takesabowandleavespolitely:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

thegoose said:


> Well if they don't pass emissions, and I'm keeping it, I'm spending my gift card on a Malone tune and deleting all the bull**** that really doesn't work anyway. :laugh: and this will be my last VW.


Sorta my thought also.


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> You say one thing in one post, and contradict yourself in the next.


No, I don't.

If you disagree, make specific citations that actually make sense.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

feels_road said:


> That's the way it usually has worked, in history.
> 
> Also, it would be nice to know why anyone "is out to get me."
> 
> ...


I'm not sure you understand sarcasm as he's joking that nobody is "out to get you", but you seem to think otherwise? And are you seriously threatening our accounts here and speaking of " misguided syndromes of the masses"? I can't even wrap my head around the point of view of the world you.must have. Odd.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

feels_road said:


> No, I don't.
> 
> If you disagree, make specific citations that actually make sense.


I'm not going to repeat what another user already did only to end up here again, thanks. Now, no more back and forth with you since it's killing the thread. And my ability to stave off a migraine. :banghead:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW sued by former U.S. employee over data deletion, reports say*



> FRANKFURT (Reuters) -- A former employee of Volkswagen's U.S. subsidiary is suing the company for damages, claiming he was unlawfully fired after flagging internally what he alleged was illegal deletion of data, a group of German media outlets said on Sunday.
> 
> The former employee at Volkswagen Group of America's data processing center in Michigan is seeking unspecified damages for losing his job after he tried beginning on Sept. 18, 2015, to stop a co-worker from deleting data, German broadcasters WDR and NDR, as well as newspaper Sueddeutsche Zeitung, which are working together on the case, cited court documents as saying.
> 
> ...


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> I was genuinely into this story, as *I was one of the people duped into buying one of these crappy rigs*.


OK, now I understand where you are coming from, although that still is just rhetoric (and does not particularly explain the state of affairs, well), and still does not explain your vitriol and unjustified blind animosity toward me.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Porsche awaits decision on suspended development boss Hatz*

Responsible for VW powertrains 2007-2012. Wouldn't that be the period when the emissions cheating started?



> STUTTGART -- Porsche will decide next month if its development chief, Wolfgang Hatz, can return to his job following his suspension in connection with Volkswagen’s diesel emissions scandal.
> 
> Porsche parent, Volkswagen Group, will report on the status of an independent investigation into the scandal led by U.S. law firm Jones Day in the second half of April.
> 
> ...


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

spockcat said:


> *VW sued by former U.S. employee over data deletion, reports say*


Now, I'm just a verrrrry small business owner, but even I know firing an employee is about the last thing to do in order to keep them quiet about bad business practices. Even little fish can smell blood in the water and little fish can hire lawyers. FYI, lawyers like money and for now anyway, VW has plenty. opcorn:


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Now, no more back and forth with you since it's killing the thread. And my ability to stave off a migraine. :banghead:


Perhaps this thread can be saved by reason, after all. :thumbup:


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

spockcat said:


> *VW sued by former U.S. employee over data deletion, reports say*


If reports of this are true - I think it could end up being much worse for VW than the actual software cheat.









feels_road said:


> OK, now I understand where you are coming from, although that still is just rhetoric (and does not particularly explain the state of affairs, well), and still does not explain your vitriol and unjustified blind animosity toward me.


No, just stop. Me (and many, many others) were well aware of your particular brand of BS in this forum well before the dieselgate thread.

You really are starting to deflect like The Donald. It's disturbing.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> Is this really such a gut punch surprise? VW cheated/played teh system, and so many people are shocked that it happened. Human beings, on average, are greedy and lazy. Human beings, on average, run companies, whose sole purpose in life is to make money as easily as possible. The essential goal is greed and sloth here folks :laugh:
> 
> 
> The EPA provided the guidelines, allowed the companies to police themselves, and took them at their word by certifying every single clean diesel car on the road today. If you don't police the laws, and the human being/company knows this, what do you expect to happen?
> ...


*
This is a fair analysis of human behavior, but I have to say it isn't apples to apples.*

Why?

Because your example is of an INDIVIDUAL (the speeder). The individual's disregard for the speed limit is an easier temptation for us, because we don't have a plethora of other drivers out there that are checking our speed and ratting on us. We don't have processes or procedures when we drive that we must present our results/decisions for scrutinization. We only have to fear being caught by the statistical cop that might be around the corner. This lack of higher probability of capture allows the gambler in us to push the limits.

I've witnessed enough automotive projects and the processes to know that the same cannot be said in this industry. And I'm betting the same potential for such a regrettable event can occur in many other corporations... and similarly large industries... across many borders, because as you correctly noted... it's a human thing.

*I don't think the teams of people involved PREPLAN such a regrettable decision. I don't believe the decision was premeditated. *

Why?

Because (like I've noted early on in this thread) there are too many chances of being caught through the many steps during the product development process... by too many people. I can't believe a team starts out with such a dubious decision and expecting everybody to play along... at least with such a strategy. 

*The more realistic human behavior is what I suggested long ago... that desperation occurred in a corporate culture of "If you can't get it done, then I will F'ing find somebody who will!!!"* And in recent couple of months Lutz's comments on Ferdinand's dinner conversation about that exact leadership style of his proves my theory. And this isn't something prescient of me. It's just the unfortunate experiences I've witnessed in my career. And I'm betting many of you out there have witnessed similarly poor (dictatorial) leadership styles. And some of you probably witnessed regrettable decisions (big and small) due to said environments.

I'm not saying it never happens, but I cannot see such a large team of people willingly INITIATING the product development process with such a dubious and regrettable decision*. I think they got desperate when reality of such a seemingly impossible task hit the fan of the product development SCHEDULE... and that is when the fateful decisions were made. And from then on... given the tight timelines and expectations of Ferdinand... those in charge of reviewing the results/performance/etc. along the way saw the snow ball and just stepped out of the way... in fear of their own livelihood. And as each review board/gate allowed the decision to move forward, the snow ball got larger and larger. And the rest is history.

*And the sad thing is... I highly doubt that Ferdinand and his ilk even expect such dubious decisions. No, they are just thinking that companies like their's simply need a TOUGH GUY to make things happens... to motivate the soldiers to perform.* The problem is... too extreme of "motivation" causes grunts to push limits. Sometimes ethical limits. I really think that many "leaders" lack the most basic understanding of human behavior... organizational behavior... and that ignorance allows failures like this to happen. In corporations, teams, governments, etc. We can see this similar failure play out in various events over history.

:beer:


*Note: Reason being... I am a believer that the vast majority of people have pride in their work. Most engineers have invested a lifetime in getting educated enough to gain such a job in such a high-profile company and industry in order to prove themselves. Show their wares. Impress us all. They have a lot of pride in doing something good/great. Why would people with such investment take such an easy path... right off the bat vs being forced/pressured to do so in a desperate hour?


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> You really are starting to deflect like The Donald. It's disturbing.


Feels_Road is going to Make Volkswagen Great Again.


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> No, just stop. Me (and many, many others [*who?*]) were well aware of your particular brand of BS [*what?]* in this forum well before the dieselgate thread.
> 
> It's disturbing.


It would be nice to hear specifics. Until then, you are just a lonely demagogue, and a person insulting a well-established, long-time forum member and disrupting the forum and a forum thread with personal vendetta, and at the risk of losing his or her account.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

DJMRDARK said:


> This is why those same characters group over at that politics board secure in their shared know-nothing-conservative-trump-sucking-pailin-whorshipping bubble. :laugh:


yeah not quite...


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

GoHomePossum said:


> Feels_Road is going to Make Volkswagen Great Again.


I am sorry, not even I have the ability to do so. They haven't listened to me, numerous times. over the past 30 years or so.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

feels_road said:


> It would be nice to hear specifics. Until then, you are just a lonely demagogue, and a person insulting a well-established, long-time forum member and disrupting the forum and a forum thread with personal vendetta, and at the risk of losing his or her account.


A) he already gave you quoted specifics. B) there are 3 of us on just the last 2 pages that think the same of you, so not "lonely". C) me thinks you're over-estimating your importance here. D) nobody's done or is doing anything to risk their account here. That's an overstatement at best, delusional as usual at worst. opcorn:

Now please stop spinning in circles. All points have been made to death. Nobody's changing anyone's mind. Let's all move along as not-friends and realize that's ok. Adults can do that. :thumbup:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

uncleho said:


> Because your example is of an INDIVIDUAL (the speeder).


I was just having fun with that example, but in my experience it really isn't that much different in a company :laugh: However, I guar-an-tee-ya complicated regulatory roadblocks are asked those three questions by the company's department responsible for meeting the requirements. 



uncleho said:


> I've witnessed enough automotive projects and the processes to know that the same cannot be said in this industry. And I'm betting the same potential for such a regrettable event can occur in many other corporations... and similarly large industries... across many borders, because as you correctly noted... it's a human thing.


I can't speak to the auto industry, never been employed by one, but I've spent a lot of time in heavily regulated industries to know that the temptation to get away with what you can is always an option for some departments/areas within a company.



uncleho said:


> *I don't think the teams of people involved PREPLAN such a regrettable decision. I don't believe the decision was premeditated. *


I can't comment on dieselchainlink but you would be surprised how an interpretation of a law can be used to justify compliance by a company. It is better to ask forgiveness than permission.



uncleho said:


> Because (like I've noted early on in this thread) there are too many chances of being caught through the many steps during the product development process... by too many people. I can't believe a team starts out with such a dubious decision and expecting everybody to play along... at least with such a strategy.


But didn't they?



uncleho said:


> *The more realistic human behavior is what I suggested long ago... that desperation occurred in a corporate culture of "If you can't get it done, then I will F'ing find somebody who will!!!"* And in recent couple of months Lutz's comments on Ferdinand's dinner conversation about that exact leadership style of his proves my theory. And this isn't something prescient of me. It's just the unfortunate experiences I've witnessed in my career. And I'm betting many of you out there have witnessed similarly poor (dictatorial) leadership styles. And some of you probably witnessed regrettable decisions (big and small) due to said environments.
> 
> I'm not saying it never happens, but I cannot see such a large team of people willingly INITIATING the product development process with such a dubious and regrettable decision*. I think they got desperate when reality of such a seemingly impossible task hit the fan of the product development SCHEDULE... and that is when the fateful decisions were made. And from then on... given the tight timelines and expectations of Ferdinand... those in charge of reviewing the results/performance/etc. along the way saw the snow ball and just stepped out of the way... in fear of their own livelihood. And as each review board/gate allowed the decision to move forward, the snow ball got larger and larger. And the rest is history.


Is this not the same thing? 'Comply' with the law, get away with what you can, as quickly as possible, because: profits.



uncleho said:


> *And the sad thing is... I highly doubt that Ferdinand and his ilk even expect such dubious decisions. No, they are just thinking that companies like their's simply need a TOUGH GUY to make things happens... to motivate the soldiers to perform.* The problem is... too extreme of "motivation" causes grunts to push limits. Sometimes ethical limits. I really think that many "leaders" lack the most basic understanding of human behavior... organizational behavior... and that ignorance allows failures like this to happen. In corporations, teams, governments, etc. We can see this similar failure play out in various events over history.


In my experience such decisions are made in the middle, any real push back usually never goes higher than the in-house lawyers (and that's only if you have an internal watchdog making sure the middle is following regulations).




uncleho said:


> *Note: Reason being... I am a believer that the vast majority of people have pride in their work. Most engineers have invested a lifetime in getting educated enough to gain such a job in such a high-profile company and industry in order to prove themselves. Show their wares. Impress us all. They have a lot of pride in doing something good/great. Why would people with such investment take such an easy path... right off the bat vs being forced/pressured to do so in a desperate hour?


I'm not an engineer, but I am a cynic :laugh:

In my experience, if the decision is to skirt a law due to complexity/cost to the company, the decision makers would not have been a skilled worker (engineer, IT, etc), the decision makers would have been the ones to realize how many hours it would have taken the skilled workers to bring the product into compliance with the law. It is those folks that do the cost benefit analysis and chooses not to comply or to 'sorta' comply with the law (the skilled worker's hours are pricey). Someone in this relatively small decision group comes up with how to get around the law and decides that to be the best (read: cheapest) method and that is what will be implemented (they will then tell the skilled worker to implement the quick fix they thought up). I'm not saying that's what happened with VW, but I've seen it enough to not think it isn't a possibility here :laugh:


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> I was just having fun with that example, but in my experience it really isn't that much different in a company :laugh: However, I guar-an-tee-ya complicated regulatory roadblocks are asked those three questions by the company's department responsible for meeting the requirements.


Oh, no... I wasn't suggesting they DON'T ever review the regulations for many reasons. Absolutely they do. They dissect the **** out of them and do a lot of math to figure out how to meet said rule in the most efficient (profitable) manner. And there isn't anything wrong (unethical) in that strive. It's how they go about doing it (i.e. Outright cheating or finding loop holes... or reading various things into potentially vague verbiage, etc.) that matters.





> I can't speak to the auto industry, never been employed by one, but I've spent a lot of time in heavily regulated industries to know that the temptation to get away with what you can is always an option for some departments/areas within a company.


Without a doubt people will find the easiest thing to do to meet a regulation... and sure it can be tempting to even cheat. That's human nature sometimes, but IMHO... such desires/drives to cheat really depend on the culture of the organization, no? And you don't have to be in autos to understand or speak to this. Your industry has similar processes I'm sure.





> I can't comment on dieselchainlink but you would be surprised how an interpretation of a law can be used to justify compliance by a company. It is better to ask forgiveness than permission.


I know the division I work in... the desire to cheat is... dare I say... unthinkable. Not because we're ethical superhumans, but more because I think the culture for so long have made people chicken-**** to even consider it. But that is American autos (i.e. The corrupt practices have been on the decline due to internal policing. I'm not saying it will never happen, but my company has been honestly trying to clean house for a long time of corruption in general, but making people know what is right and wrong is not as hard as making sure you don't put them in high-pressure/high-career-fearing scenarios where they are desperate enough to do such a dubious thing.). 

It's not to say somebody hasn't. In fact I noted as much at the start of this thread where GM India did just that (and we know how corrupt places like India are. Heck, my many Indian colleagues rage about how awful, yet cultural it is.). And they fired a crap-ton of people over there... including the Americans over there that were involved and not involved (because they should have known!). They even let the Executive boss over here go to show that even if you weren't directly involved... you clearly did not know what was going on (which is your job) and the company needed to show the grunts that mere soldiers were not the only ones to be tossed, but that... those responsible for said orgs ultimately needed to be made responsible.





> But didn't they?


Yes, but I don't think you understood the difference I was trying to communicate... however nuanced it might be...




> Is this not the same thing? 'Comply' with the law, get away with what you can, as quickly as possible, because: profits.
> 1) I think (correct me if wrong) you were suggesting that they did that from the get-go as a well-planned strategy to defeat the regulation.


>>>I don't believe that was the case, because as I said... there are a lot of 'cops' internally at various stages to check for such a thing (i.e. I can't imagine anybody having enough balls and ego to think they can bypass that many checks... unless their name was Ferdinand and we know he isn't working as a low level engineer or manager or director.).
2) To kick off such a dubious strategy requires everybody's buy-in... at the outset. People of various levels are not that suicidal to do such a thing at such a large scale. IMHO. 
>>>Yes, they did it, but the nuance I'm suggesting is that the decision was made at a level below the strategy-deciding level (i.e. Managers and even a director maybe)... and made once they were in the heat of the program schedule... and getting ready to meet whatever milestone they needed to meet. With the pressure of "800k/year USDM sales" and The Ferdinand Rule and the fear of losing one's job/career... a group of people caved... DURING the development process... NOT at the start. 




> In my experience such decisions are made in the middle, any real push back usually never goes higher than the in-house lawyers (and that's only if you have an internal watchdog making sure the middle is following regulations).


I'm normally very cynical and I don't doubt scenarios like you suggest couldn't happen. I'm just trying to piece it together with human nature/psychology... at the level of a VW and a product as complex (not to mention a product with lots of regulations as you know well)... I'm trying to piece together what I think was the most likely scenario. 

To strategize such a nefarious plan assumes an organization with many, many, many balls of iron and I just can't fathom that. Yeah, Germans can be sometimes arrogant, but usually that arrogance (in my experience) associated with their actual capability/talents... relates to things technical. Not things cheating. Not only that, but I think assuming VW STARTED OFF with such a dubious plan gives them too much credit. Seriously... trying to pull off something like this successfully is a huge undertaking for ANY auto mfr and I can't see any one of them having the massive intellectual talent to get away with it.  




> I'm not an engineer, but I am a cynic :laugh:


I don't think one needs to be an engineer to appreciate human desperation in a potentially bad corporate environment like what might have pressured such regrettable decisions.




> In my experience, if the decision is to skirt a law due to complexity/cost to the company, the decision makers would not have been a skilled worker (engineer, IT, etc), the decision makers would have been the ones to realize how many hours it would have taken the skilled workers to bring the product into compliance with the law. It is those folks that do the cost benefit analysis and chooses not to comply or to 'sorta' comply with the law (the skilled worker's hours are pricey). Someone in this relatively small decision group comes up with how to get around the law and decides that to be the best (read: cheapest) method and that is what will be implemented (they will then tell the skilled worker to implement the quick fix they thought up). I'm not saying that's what happened with VW, but I've seen it enough to not think it isn't a possibility here :laugh:


Sure. I believe that. The only caveat I have (based on my experience in powertrain) is that the rank and file of powertrain management (decision makers) are ALL engineers... at one time or another. I don't think I've ever met a manager, director, exec director, or VP in my org that wasn't a powertrain engineer at some point. Any financial or business acumen that allowed then to climb the ladder came through MBAs and the like... and I'm betting VW is similarly thick with engineering leadership... for what is otherwise a very engineering-centric product like the powertrain. 

But I agree with you that somebodies at some "mid level management" made the decision... and got various others to agree... and then run with it. It's just that in my experience... these deciders ARE engineers by background. I think all of them were fearful of the Ferdinand Rule and figured like you suggested previously (i.e. Ask forgiveness later.). But I doubt people even look that far down the road when it comes to desperation. Usually their minds are focused on the HERE AND NOW. Surviving NOW... not considering what and how it can explode far later. 

The sad thing is that they had to know somebody would rat the act out sooner or later, but I guess desperation causes emotional turmoil that usually blinds oneself to logical thinking. If what all you suggest is really how it went down (they decided this at the start of the project) then... maaaan, their culture is really messed up. And that's saying a lot coming from a person in a company that nearly went down the drain for good.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

uncleho said:


> >>>I don't believe that was the case, because as I said... there are a lot of 'cops' internally at various stages to check for such a thing (i.e. I can't imagine anybody having enough balls and ego to think they can bypass that many checks... unless their name was Ferdinand and we know he isn't working as a low level engineer or manager or director.).
> 2) To kick off such a dubious strategy requires everybody's buy-in... at the outset. People of various levels are not that suicidal to do such a thing at such a large scale. IMHO.
> >>>Yes, they did it, but the nuance I'm suggesting is that the decision was made at a level below the strategy-deciding level (i.e. Managers and even a director maybe)... and made once they were in the heat of the program schedule... and getting ready to meet whatever milestone they needed to meet. With the pressure of "800k/year USDM sales" and The Ferdinand Rule and the fear of losing one's job/career... a group of people caved... DURING the development process... NOT at the start.


I agree, this probably happened during development, it was an obstacle discovered along the way.

I'm not going to pretend to understand how it would work, but; the software cheat itself, it was an answer to the question _How to make the car pass the test_. How many people could this have included at VW (though, not taking BOSCH into account, as they said they warned "VW" about the cheat software)? Would it really need buy in from all or a lot of the drivetrain team?

To me is seems to be such an elegantly simple solution, no hardware updates, no additional cost, and risk of being caught would be thought to be non-existent (as this thread has taught me only Nevada has a rolling emissions test system, and they don't sniff for NOx :laugh: This was a world-wide remedy and *no governmental agency* caught it). That's some low hanging fruit with no serpents around :laugh:



uncleho said:


> If what all you suggest is really how it went down (they decided this at the start of the project) then... maaaan, their culture is really messed up. And that's saying a lot coming from a person in a company that nearly went down the drain for good.


Yeah, with the initial cheat not getting caught and the need to continue to make compliant cars the situation snowballed like a muddafudda and just became so unmanageable that there really wasn't any stopping it outside of a corporate about face of going electric and dropping diesel (which seems to have been the direction as I understand it).

I sense the angst you have, knowing that others in your field, a profession you take great pride in, could have acted in such a manner, and then still continued to run with it. Makes everyone look suspect (how many 'I bet other car companies cheat as well!' have you heard since this fiasco?).


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

uncleho said:


> 2) To kick off such a dubious strategy requires everybody's buy-in... at the outset. People of various levels are not that suicidal to do such a thing at such a large scale. IMHO.
> >>>Yes, they did it, but the nuance I'm suggesting is that the decision was made at a level below the strategy-deciding level (i.e. Managers and even a director maybe)... and made once they were in the heat of the program schedule... and getting ready to meet whatever milestone they needed to meet. With the pressure of "800k/year USDM sales" and The Ferdinand Rule and the fear of losing one's job/career... a group of people caved... DURING the development process... NOT at the start.
> 
> To strategize such a nefarious plan assumes an organization with many, many, many balls of iron and I just can't fathom that. Yeah, Germans can be sometimes arrogant, but usually that arrogance (in my experience) associated with their actual capability/talents... relates to things technical. Not things cheating. Not only that, but I think assuming VW STARTED OFF with such a dubious plan gives them too much credit. Seriously... trying to pull off something like this successfully is a huge undertaking for ANY auto mfr and I can't see any one of them having the massive intellectual talent to get away with it.


Well, having done a bit of work with internal combustion over there....

I've been clear before, the German attitude towards testing is highly influenced by the TÜV - once you pass the test, you are golden. Matter not the day before or the day after. So either this was a matter of course - look, we can pass the test, here is how we do it, off we go - or a matter of a bit of quiet discussion - let's not be too loud about this, but here is how it's going to go down - it was surely agreed to (verbally, hand-waved, or otherwise) at the Director level (what I call MC2A) and I can assure you, the arrogance is there. 

There is some joy in telling them to shove it, though.


----------



## Slipstream (Feb 8, 2002)

spockcat said:


> *VW sued by former U.S. employee over data deletion, reports say*


Yeah, this is bad. 

VW hasn't exactly been the most cooperative, but if the justice department catches wind of them deliberately sabotaging evidence, VW is going to have a few different books thrown at them. Dumb, dumb, dumb. I was confident early on that VW would right the ship and (eventually) get back on track. I'm honestly not sure now...


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

1) Not all MFRs do things the same. Especially with respect to how they develop the products they do. In GENERAL, they follow a similar path, but the details are what differentiates each MFR. Example:
a) Mfr A prioritizes pollution so they have their internal standards and testing regimen... before they even do the regional testing. And it might include on-road, real-life testing... not just dyno runs per a schedule.
b) Mfr B might reserve their investment in other things and merely test emissions per whatever regional regulatory test schedule.

And the same can be said about damn near anything in the car from paint to crash testing to seats. My point being... even though you are correct that their 'fix' is elegant in potential hiding, some MFRs might have testing schedules that would surely find such anomalies right quick. In fact Lutz noted such observations when he initially thought his powertrain diesel engineers to be... less talented, because they couldn't figure out how VW passed the test with the hardware they did. :laugh:


2) My angst is less about personal pride in work, but more about failures in organizational behavior. For me... the failures I see in my company over the years have shown me that we're a microcosm of the society in general (i.e. The Dumb that we have done can also be seen in the society at large.). For me... events like this are about lessons learned and finding root causes in order to reduce their repetition. 

I think the unfortunate result in events like this is that if the root cause is a culture of fear by dictatorial rule... chances are good that those who create the root of the problem (i.e. The culture.) are never found to be the problem... and that their methods will allow said cultures to continue such that similar things will happen again. 

In investigations of events like this it is too easy for leadership to throw people under the bus willy nilly to protect themselves. Finding easy scapegoats is not hard. Afterall... the ACTUAL CHEAT's source is an easy find (i.e. The programmer.). Then it gets harder in terms of figuring out who permitted/approved it. Then if it happened during development process because of the fearful environment they work in... well? Tell me what investigator would ever ask that question? Ever push the investigation deeper? To many... the assumption is, "We found the evil SOB! Hang him high!" Few ask WHY such a grunt(s) would be so bold or desperate as to risk such a cheat on that scale?


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

sooo..when can I get my full MSRP buyback?! :laugh:


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> Well, having done a bit of work with internal combustion over there....
> 
> I've been clear before, the German attitude towards testing is highly influenced by the TÜV - once you pass the test, you are golden. Matter not the day before or the day after. So either this was a matter of course - look, we can pass the test, here is how we do it, off we go - or a matter of a bit of quiet discussion - let's not be too loud about this, but here is how it's going to go down - it was surely agreed to (verbally, hand-waved, or otherwise) at the Director level (what I call MC2A) and I can assure you, the arrogance is there.
> 
> There is some joy in telling them to shove it, though.


uncleho = good cop

atomicalex = bad cop


atomicalex - Keeping it real since 2001 :laugh::thumbup:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Gotcha, and I agree. Nothing 'motivates' like having your lively hood on the line. 



uncleho said:


> even though you are correct that their 'fix' is elegant in potential hiding, some MFRs might have testing schedules that would surely find such anomalies right quick.


Obviously the machine in the VW shop was down for repairs on that day :laugh:



uncleho said:


> In fact Lutz noted such observations when he initially thought his powertrain diesel engineers to be... less talented, because they couldn't figure out how VW passed the test with the hardware they did. :laugh:


Do you think they figured out what VW was doing? I know there was speculation that Honda may have when they pulled the plug on trying to bring their diesel stateside.



uncleho said:


> uncleho = good cop
> 
> atomicalex = bad cop


:thumbup::laugh:


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

Silly,

I honestly don't know what GM or Ford or whoever discovered in their benchmarking once the TDI came out. Nor would I tell y'all. 

I'm sure somebody finally discovered it. Engineers like to watch magicians like anybody else, but we definitely don't believe in magic. I commented very early on in this thread about the same and that VWs peers had a few choices:
1) Get pissed and rat on them.
2) Get pissed and copy them... in whatever way.
3) Get pissed and ignore it all... in order to watch the eventual ****storm arrive. 

We know no peer ratted on VW, which leaves everybody else (2) choices to make. It honestly surprises me that some peer didn't even LEAK gossip to the auto news that something was amiss, but then... few people like ratting out somebody else... especially if they are a competitor. At least that is the unwritten rule I've noticed over the years.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

uncleho said:


> uncleho = reminding us how far the US auto industry has come every day





uncleho said:


> 3) Get pissed and ignore it all... in order to watch the eventual ****storm arrive.


this one, for sure. Not knowing how deep the issue went, not knowing if suppliers were involved, not knowing anything other than the numbers were funny, you leave that alone and let the feds sort it out. Otherwise there is all hell to pay with collusion and risking your supplier base bolting on you. 

Notice how close to the vest Bosch has played this? Deny deny deny. Everyone buys from Bosch. If GM had called out VW and implicated Bosch, the politics would have led to Bosch siding with VW and blacklisting GM. Not good. 

Way easier, better, safer to let this go. Besides, who's to say that someone didn't call the magpies over at EPA, who then called a few little birds at CARB, who then said, hey, this has to be bulletproof, so we're going to farm this out..... and so on. The Feds are getting smarter these days. Look how the FBI took down those idiots in Oregon - just waited and let them hang themselves. Same deal here. Let the incrimination stand on its own.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

You do realize if we were talking about UFO coverups no one would take this seriously :laugh:


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> You do realize if we were talking about UFO coverups no one would take this seriously :laugh:


:what:

Whaaaat... iffff.......

You know the lack of humor from the German auto industry folks I've observed over the years could explain their alien nature.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> this one, for sure. Not knowing how deep the issue went, not knowing if suppliers were involved, not knowing anything other than the numbers were funny, you leave that alone and let the feds sort it out. Otherwise there is all hell to pay with collusion and risking your supplier base bolting on you.
> 
> Notice how close to the vest Bosch has played this? Deny deny deny. Everyone buys from Bosch. If GM had called out VW and implicated Bosch, the politics would have led to Bosch siding with VW and blacklisting GM. Not good.
> 
> Way easier, better, safer to let this go. Besides, who's to say that someone didn't call the magpies over at EPA, who then called a few little birds at CARB, who then said, hey, this has to be bulletproof, so we're going to farm this out..... and so on. The Feds are getting smarter these days. Look how the FBI took down those idiots in Oregon - just waited and let them hang themselves. Same deal here. Let the incrimination stand on its own.


Makes sense. I never thought about the supplier turmoil/risk. 

I'm tellin' ya... this is movie material. We need some sex and it'd be Hollywood!


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

uncleho said:


> Makes sense. I never thought about the supplier turmoil/risk.
> 
> I'm tellin' ya... this is movie material. We need some sex and it'd be Hollywood!


I'd bet a dollar that _somewhere_ in this scandal sex is involved. We may never find out about it, but it's probably in there. :laugh:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Air and water do mix said:


> I'd bet a dollar that _somewhere_ in this scandal sex is involved. We may never find out about it, but it's probably in there. :laugh:


I thought VW had a platoon of hookers on retainer?


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> I thought VW had a platoon of hookers on retainer?


No, that's University of Louisville's basketball team. :laugh::banghead:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

A joke like that this time of year can get a fella hurt :laugh:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

uncleho said:


> No, that's University of Louisville's basketball team. :laugh::banghead:


Ooooh, burrrrrrrn. :laugh:


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

uncleho said:


> Makes sense. I never thought about the supplier turmoil/risk.
> 
> I'm tellin' ya... this is movie material. We need some sex and it'd be Hollywood!


It's way better than movie material. Truth is stranger than fiction!


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> I thought VW had a platoon of hookers on retainer?


Didn't they have to fire them a few years back? I heard Osterloh's wife was not happy.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> Didn't they have to fire them a few years back? I heard Osterloh's wife was not happy.


Lady, you needz to come clean with some of these scandalous stories you're hiding.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

Saw this regarding Michael Horn's departure...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-s-ceo-leaves-suddenly-after-mutual-agreement



> What could he have done, besides give cars away?


Frankly, this may be VWoA's only hope at this point. Offering buy-backs and/or even trades for equivalent non-TDI models. I don't see how anything short of a grand gesture like this could win back former customers and win over new ones.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

g-man_ae said:


> Saw this regarding Michael Horn's departure...
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-s-ceo-leaves-suddenly-after-mutual-agreement
> 
> ...


I can't imagine the negotiations, but then... with the latest DESTROYING DATA/INFO scandal... I don't know how you can possibly convince the DoJ let alone EPA you are serious about it.

I harp a lot about the crappy culture some "leadership" can create, but one thing that burns me are the gutless mid-level management that can't grasp the concept of collective leverage that they can wield with respect to making changes to fix things (i.e. To fight poor executive decisions.). Fixing things in poor organizational behavior requires all parties stepping up. 
1) The grunt soldier ants need to speak up and voice their collective concern to their managers.
2) The managers need to do the same with their directors.
3) The directors need to do the same with their executive directors.
4) The executive directors need to do the same with the VPs. 
5) And so on.

I personally think the VW culture issue is probably somewhat unique. I think the greater issue doesn't even require a tyrant in the high castle, but rather those under him that are YES Men & Women who take the slightest question from the big boss and run with it as it it were an edict from God that needs no review/critique. That is likely a bigger probability IMHO than corporate tyrants today.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

g-man_ae said:


> Saw this regarding Michael Horn's departure...
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-s-ceo-leaves-suddenly-after-mutual-agreement
> 
> ...


I keep telling ya, Option #2 (take keys from unfixable TDI's, replace with compliant TDI's) will maintain customer loyalty if Option #1 (fix TDI's into compliance) can't be done.

But it all depends if they want to count beans or maintain customer loyalty. Obviously if the short term bottom line is more important, then just stonewall any compensation package and degrade it to the minimum required by law ala Exxon who hired very good lawyers in NY to get the punitive damages reduced from over $5B to a tenth of that after over a decade of litigation. (my wife worked for that law firm) To hell with customer loyalty. 

The only difference to Exxon, however, is people do have a choice on the cars they buy, and if word gets out that VW 'screws' over the customers then watch sales tank, at least here in the US.

But if customer loyalty is even remotely important, ya gotta really think hard about implementing Option #2, even if it means a short term financial loss as VW will make it up years down the road when the customers come back. . . . .


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

uncleho said:


> I can't imagine the negotiations, but then... with the latest DESTROYING DATA/INFO scandal... I don't know how you can possibly convince the DoJ let alone EPA you are serious about it.
> 
> I harp a lot about the crappy culture some "leadership" can create, but one thing that burns me are the gutless mid-level management that can't grasp the concept of collective leverage that they can wield with respect to making changes to fix things (i.e. To fight poor executive decisions.). Fixing things in poor organizational behavior requires all parties stepping up.
> 1) The grunt soldier ants need to speak up and voice their collective concern to their managers.
> ...


It takes a lot more fortitude to be an "Oskar Schindler" and buck the company trend and fight for what's right than to toe the company line and go along with what the bosses are sending down from the top. Classic example are the two Space Shuttle accidents where in *both *instances the engineers knew beforehand that disaster was imminent, tried to warn the upper management, but got ignored because the corporate culture imbued into the managers had become such that they became immune to the failures and expected that the failures wouldn't cause any damage further that what had been seen before. *Wrong* . . . .

Edit: Bob Ebeling (Thiokol) along with Roger Bosijoly tried to do exactly that the day before Challenger's ill fated flight. He felt guilty for 30 years for the loss of the Shuttle and the crew and is only now starting to accept the accident wasn't his fault and that he did all he could do at the time to try and stop it.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...enger-shuttle-engineer-shed-30-years-of-guilt


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

uncleho said:


> No, that's University of Louisville's basketball team. :laugh::banghead:


So Michael Horn will soon be driving for Uber?


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

uncleho said:


> Lady, you needz to come clean with some of these scandalous stories you're hiding.


Old news. Actually 11 year old news. Holy cow, that was a while ago!

http://www.spiegel.de/international...here-s-no-love-left-in-this-bug-a-365752.html


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

atomicalex said:


> Old news. Actually 11 year old news. Holy cow, that was a while ago!


God time flies, no wonder no one ever thinks my VW hooker jokes are witty :laugh:


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Hi, OP checking in to this fascinating discourse...

Question for those working in industry:

It's always been understood that manufacturers secret shop cars from other MFR's and tear them apart to learn what they can. Do they not also test those cars first to ensure they actually meet what standards they say they do?

Is there a "don't ask/don't tell" policy in the auto industry that everyone has little secrets nobody else will reveal?

It's been stated in this thread (and by people to me directly in PM) that people at other MFR's had been asking questions about how VW was achieving what they were with the non-SCR TDI's and the SCR Passat. Is it really possible that the only people to do any real-world testing was this university?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Numbersix said:


> Is there a "don't ask/don't tell" policy in the auto industry that everyone has little secrets nobody else will reveal?


Check out tinfoilAlex's post on the previous page :laugh:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

The US market share graph from Bloomberg shows how badly it's going for VW in the US, and how long they have been in decline.










I think everyone around here knows it was due to aging products, failure to update US models in lockstep with the EU models (while other major automakers adopted world cars, which launch in all countries in the same year), and failure to offer products popular in the US, like multiple CUVs of different sizes and price ranges. It sounded almost like VW Germany was trying to blame Horn for their own inability to offer the right products in the US, and thus the multi-year slide in market share.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Numbersix said:


> Is it really possible that the only people to do any real-world testing was this university?


See my post a bit back. Calling out a potential OEM/supplier combo would be really really bad form, especially if you buy from that supplier, too.

Seriously. My guess is that at least Honda and one of the US OEMs figured this out independently and planted bugs in EPA's ear, which led to handing down to CARB. It wouldn't be the first time things were done in the safest, most secure manner. 

Had an OEM called out VW, all hell would have broken loose. If the claims were unfounded, everyone would suffer. 

The way it went down, EPA and CARB look less bad, the other OEMs stay above the fray, and Bosch gets to keep selling ECUs with back doors in them.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

atomicalex said:


> Bosch gets to keep selling ECUs with back doors in them.


First hookers and now backdoors? This thread is getting better by the page.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

Eric D said:


> Yes.


Get your ass to mars!


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW institutional investors file $3.6 billion suit in Germany*



> BERLIN (Reuters) -- Almost 300 institutional investors in Volkswagen have filed a multi-billion euro suit against the carmaker for what they see as breaches of its capital markets duty in the emissions scandal, the law firm representing them said.
> 
> The lawsuit, for damages of 3.256 billion euro ($3.61 billion), was filed at a regional court in Braunschweig in VW's home state of Lower Saxony early today and is being brought by 278 investors from all over the world, including German insurers and U.S. pension fund Calpers.
> 
> ...


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

Keep in mind that 2012 was sort of peak Korea. Hyundai/Kia had legs by that point, and they were stealing volume from just about everybody.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

Numbersix said:


> Hi, OP checking in to this fascinating discourse...
> 
> Question for those working in industry:
> 
> ...


Yes, there is testing of competitive vehicles prior to tear-downs. And the level of testing and what are tested depends on those requesting. I'm sure those buying TDI's were testing emission claims. Now HOW they were doing it is the question. Since the criteria is an EPA prescribed test, I would imagine they start with that. Whether they move beyond that is up to their curiosity and/or test hardware capability/etc. 

I don't think there is any secret agreement between mfrs per se, but I can understand why peers wouldn't want to rat. We grow up in a culture that frowns on such things, no? And as atomicalex noted... it would set a precedence. No MFR is free of mistakes and dirty laundry and the last thing they need are peers ratting them out. Well... I suppose it depends on how unethical it is of course. Our election year's turd ballistics is bad enough. Can you imagine the mfrs ratting each other out in the media? 

Know that real world testing vs dyno testing are essentially the same. That and gathering usable data demands that you control as many variables as you can (controlled testing = confidence in results), so testing on dynos is critical. You CAN program any manner of loads on the powertrain to simulate various driving conditions and depending on how fancy the dynos are... you might be able to add other environmental factors. And don't forget that a dyno can run days and weeks on end without stop. Drivers have to piss and eat.

The real-world testing done by the university was initially intended to prove that diesel performance could be done affordably remember? They were out to prove this by doing an extended drive in public (i.e. What would look more impressive to brag about performance? Public journey or dyno?). That and the school likely doesn't have dynos.


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

Numbersix said:


> Hi, OP checking in to this fascinating discourse...
> 
> Question for those working in industry:
> 
> ...


GM apparently knew something was us: http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...n-was-cheating-on-diesel-emissions-tests.html


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

JohnNS said:


> GM apparently knew something was us: http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...n-was-cheating-on-diesel-emissions-tests.html


Hold up, autoguide's source was Forbes? :laugh: I'm just gonna start phoning in my work as well :laugh:


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Most articles with regards to this case are just regurgitating what we already know, speculating, and then regurgitating that. There is no new real news.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

uncleho said:


> I suppose it depends on how unethical it is of course. Our election year's turd ballistics is bad enough...


:laugh:

I keep chuckling at that.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

GoFaster said:


> Most articles with regards to this case are just regurgitating what we already know, speculating, and then regurgitating that. There is no new real news.


Yeah, let's see what happens on the 24th when Judge Breyer gets VW's package. Until then it's a circular firing squad with all the rumors.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> :laugh:
> 
> I keep chuckling at that.


Sergio: Mary, you know you want me. Let's get together.
Mary: Ohhhhhh puh-lease. You wish you can get a hold of my process. Shouldn't you be fixing that Alfa? 
Mark: Ahahahaha. No she di-n't! 
Sergio: What are you laughing at? BTW... we need to choose tires for our minivan. Do you have thoughts on what not to buy in terms of tires?
Mark: Amigo, don't even start!
Akio: You all are children. I eat your lunch 24/7 and twice on Sunday.
Mary: [cough]rusty frame[cough]
Akio: Yo momma drives a Cobalt!!
Dieter: Vee don't need to be a part of dis childish talk.
Sergio: Hail Dieter! 
Dieter: You muthah....

[Brawl ensues]


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)




----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Seems appropriate.



Car Problems said:


>





*Ex-Porsche execs ask for acquittals in VW manipulation case*



> BERLIN (Bloomberg) -- Lawyers for former Porsche CEO Wendelin Wiedeking and ex-Chief Financial Officer Holger Haerter have asked for their clients to be acquitted at the end of a criminal trial that has seen the two men face accusations of having manipulated Volkswagen shares during a failed takeover of VW in 2008.
> 
> The lawyers said prosecutors "invented" a story to back up charges that the men misled the markets before the failed bid to take over Volkswagen.
> 
> ...


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

uncleho said:


> Sergio: Mary, you know you want me. Let's get together.
> Mary: Ohhhhhh puh-lease. You wish you can get a hold of my process. Shouldn't you be fixing that Alfa?
> Mark: Ahahahaha. No she di-n't!
> Sergio: What are you laughing at? BTW... we need to choose tires for our minivan. Do you have thoughts on what not to buy in terms of tires?
> ...


:laugh:

Is that supposed to be the heads of the corporations or is it a case of changing names to protect the innocent presidential candidates? :laugh: :beer:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

More details on on the VW employee whistleblower case. 

*VW employee terminated for refusing to delete data, violating 'hold,' suit says*



> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen Group of America obstructed justice by deleting data in the days after being notified of EPA and Department of Justice probes tied to the company’s diesel emissions violations, according to claims in a lawsuit by a former U.S. employee.
> 
> The former employee, Daniel Donovan, who worked in VW’s office of general counsel, alleges that he was fired on Dec. 6 after refusing to participate in what he believed was the destruction of evidence possibly related to the U.S. government’s investigation of VW’s emissions violations, according to the complaint.
> 
> ...


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

spockcat said:


> More details on on the VW employee whistleblower case.
> 
> *VW employee terminated for refusing to delete data, violating 'hold,' suit says*


Bloody hell. This proves VW can at least do one thing right here in the US... screw up (royally). :banghead:


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

spockcat said:


> More details on on the VW employee whistleblower case.
> 
> *VW employee terminated for refusing to delete data, violating 'hold,' suit says*


As I said earlier - this is going to **** them so much harder than the software cheat.


----------



## Slipstream (Feb 8, 2002)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> As I said earlier - this is going to **** them so much harder than the software cheat.


If this is legit, whatever leniency VW might have earned goes right out the window. It essentially sounds like they canned the legal clerk for refusing to bury their secrets. 

No bueno.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Slipstream said:


> If this is legit, whatever leniency VW might have earned goes right out the window. It essentially sounds like they canned the legal clerk for refusing to bury their secrets.
> 
> No bueno.


Yeah, that doesn't look good. Assuming it's true, it's always the cover-up more than the crime... Just ask Richard Nixon.



Bugs Bunny said:


> What a bunch of maroons.


 :banghead:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

spockcat said:


> “Accidental” deletion of data continued after Sept. 21, including an Oct. 5


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

spockcat said:


> More details on on the VW employee whistleblower case.
> 
> *VW employee terminated for refusing to delete data, violating 'hold,' suit says*


I am familiar with legal holds at major corporations. They are taken extremely seriously, as are backups. Basically nobody is to ever purge backups for any reason, and sensitive data is to be never deleted without a change ticket signed off by a high level manager. To delete whole sets of backups would take weeks or even months to gain approval and may have to be approved as high up as the CIO of technology at my current company. Sure enough, the article states:



> Mr. Donovan said in the lawsuit that *he contacted Volkswagen's chief information officer* for the Americas, Abdallah Shanti, on the day the allegations were made public to tell him to "stop deleting data effective immediately" due to a request from the Justice Department.


For reference, a CIO doesn't do anything on their own either, they are the technology arm of the CEO's office. I honestly don't see how this can't be pointed back at the CEO. We already have an alleged link directly to the CIO for the cover-up. It's only a very short line then back to the CEO. I honestly wonder if the German government will simply stop honoring international arrest warrants from the US in order to protect their executives. I know France has done it many times and it wouldn't surprise me if Germany does it here. Their press is already spinning this whole story as if the US is on a witch hunt anyway. The public will almost certainly support any action against the US.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

thegoose said:


> Well if they don't pass emissions, and I'm keeping it, I'm spending my gift card on a Malone tune and deleting all the bull**** that really doesn't work anyway. :laugh: and this will be my last VW.


Heh, wonder if I can get like an exemption sticker so that i don't have to get mine inspected? Malone tune, rip all that emissions hsit out since its does work anyway and roll coal in my wagon. Can't sell it for anything if that they just let VW slide (well technically not slide b/c of the fines) but sllowing them to not fix the cars and not require them to buy them back. Seems like a good plan to just blow some think black smoke.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW finance arm takes 353 million euro writedown to cover potential drop in residuals*



> FRANKFURT (Reuters) -- Volkswagen's Financial Services AG said it took an extraordinary writedown of 353 million euros ($391 million) to cover a potential decline in the residual value of cars in the wake of the diesel emissions cheating scandal.
> 
> "We created extensive reserves on the basis of the leasing portfolio so as to be prepared for any possible decline of the residual values," CEO Lars Henner Santelmann told journalists at a news conference on Tuesday after the VW subsidiary published full-year results.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW's fix for rigged diesel engines delayed in Germany, paper says*



> BERLIN (Reuters) -- Volkswagen's modification of about 2.5 million diesel cars in Germany is being delayed by at least six weeks, the daily newspaper Bild reported.
> 
> The automaker has not yet received approval from the Federal Motor Transport Authority (KBA) for proposed technical fixes for the Passat midsize model, the newspaper said today, citing a KBA spokesman.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)




----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

spockcat said:


>


Kristin really screwed that one up.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Only 7 more days before judge Breyer's deadline. Hopefully the cars will get fixed and we won't have to sell them back to VW. That's my first hope.

But if my car needs to get bought back, I'd probably opt for the RAM HFE as a replacement. I have no idea what I'd replace my wife's Jetta with, though. Diesel is still 50₵ a gallon cheaper than gasoline here in SoCal, so I'd love to get her a diesel. But she doesn't want a BMW or Mercedes or a RAM of her own as they're just too big. And the Tesla 3 isn't out yet. Dang.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

PlatinumGLS said:


> Kristin really screwed that one up.


What is Power Wheels Alex?



T5 Dave said:


> Only 7 more days before judge Breyer's deadline.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Silly_me said:


>


It might, Ripley. At least at that point we'll have some idea of where this mess is headed, vs. the no-apparent-hand-on-the-tiller approach that's been demonstrated so far.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

Silly_me said:


>


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

T5 Dave said:


> At least at that point we'll have some idea of where this mess is headed


He isn't hearing a criminal case, CARB and EPA have yet to move forward on _anything_. His deadline is on behalf of the disenfranchised, lied to, morally crippled, baby seal loving TDi owners wanting monetary reimbursement at pennies on the dollar from the evil corporation killing the asthmatic masses and elderly emphysema sufferers. Oh, and those who breath LA air.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

Numbersix said:


> Hi, OP checking in to this fascinating discourse...
> 
> Question for those working in industry:
> 
> ...


It depends. Most instrumented testing is performed on dynamometers in climate controlled test cells so the engineers can control test variables. You would be surprised at how sophisticated test cells have become. Virtually any climate (including snow :snowcool can be tested. On the other hand, road testing is commonly used for chassis testing like ride and handling and general vehicle evaluation.

Since VW's defeat device was designed to sense when a vehicle was being tested by the EPA, emissions would likely appear "normal" on any dyno testing that doesn't spin the rear wheels.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW in talks with U.S. authorities over two funds to compensate diesel scandal, report says*



> CHICAGO (Bloomberg) -- Volkswagen Group is in talks with U.S. authorities to establish a national remediation fund and a separate one for California as punishment for pollution from its cars after the automaker cheated on diesel-emissions tests, said people familiar with the matter.
> 
> One fund would be administered by the Environmental Protection Agency and used to promote clean transportation throughout the U.S.; the other would be run by California to promote zero-emission vehicles in the state, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the talks are private.
> 
> ...


EDIT: Bold added for emphasis of this important point.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*U.S. law firm says it will pursue customer claims against VW in Europe*



> BERLIN (Reuters) -- U.S. law firm Hausfeld said it will pursue the claims of European customers harmed by Volkswagen's emissions scandal, adding to the German automaker's mounting legal challenges.
> 
> In a letter to VW's top management and chairman, Hausfeld has called on the carmaker's senior executives to meet with its representatives before the end of March to discuss potential European customer claims.
> 
> ...


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> Oh, and those who breathe LA air.


That includes me.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

spockcat said:


> *U.S. law firm says it will pursue customer claims against VW in Europe*


How can a US law firm represent people in a foreign country?


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

spockcat said:


> *VW in talks with U.S. authorities over two funds to compensate diesel scandal, report says*
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: Bold added for emphasis of this important point.


They must have took the advice of 200+ pages on VWV


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

"_In bargaining so far, U.S. and California officials have insisted that any settlement give all customers the right to sell their cars back to Volkswagen, if they want to, said one of the people.

While VW has said buybacks are a possibility, fixing the cars is the company's preferred option. In cases where durability of emissions controls is a concern, the government may require Volkswagen to expand its warranties and replace catalytic converters or other equipment every 25,000 miles, said John German, co-lead of the International Council on Clean Transportation. The ICCT is a nonprofit group that helped expose Volkswagen's cheating last year.

Progress has been made toward agreeing on a new engine-control software and hardware to lower harmful emissions, according to the people. But it's unlikely that a breakthrough resolving all the technical questions including hardware fixes can be reached by next week.

"As of today, we do not believe any of the three generations of vehicle technologies for the 2.0-liter vehicles can be repaired to meet their certified emissions levels," Todd Sax, chief of the California board's enforcement division, said last week at a state Senate Environmental Quality Committee hearing_."



Seems like a kitchen sink approach.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

VT1.8T said:


> "In bargaining so far, U.S. and California officials have insisted that any settlement give all customers the right to sell their cars back to Volkswagen, if they want to, said one of the people.
> 
> While VW has said buybacks are a possibility, fixing the cars is the company's preferred option. In cases where durability of emissions controls is a concern, the government may require Volkswagen to expand its warranties and replace catalytic converters or other equipment every 25,000 miles, said John German, co-lead of the International Council on Clean Transportation. The ICCT is a nonprofit group that helped expose Volkswagen's cheating last year.
> 
> ...





> "As of today, we do not believe any of the three generations of vehicle technologies for the 2.0-liter vehicles can be repaired to meet their certified emissions levels,"


Why not? It's already been shown they can meet certified emission levels in test mode. Put it in test mode to keep the emissions levels within regulated specifications, extend warranties to cover parts failing before they should, and boom. Fixed.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

GoHomeBroke said:


> Why not? It's already been shown they can meet certified emission levels in test mode. Put it in test mode to keep the emissions levels within regulated specifications, extend warranties to cover parts failing before they should, and boom. Fixed.


For some reason CARB/EPA isn't satisfied the cars pass even in test mode.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

GoHomeBroke said:


> Why not? It's already been shown they can meet certified emission levels in test mode. Put it in test mode to keep the emissions levels within regulated specifications, extend warranties to cover parts failing before they should, and boom. Fixed.


Perhaps the requirements for emissions systems are to last 120,000 miles WITHOUT the need for repair/replacement under normal usage and VW can't show the cars are able to do this.

https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/tier2stds.htm


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

T5 Dave said:


> For some reason CARB/EPA isn't satisfied the cars pass even in test mode.


You know, for ****s and giggles I Google'd "EPA corruption" And the **** that came up is pretty bad.


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

GoHomeBroke said:


> How can a US law firm represent people in a foreign country?


Typical lawyers thinking they can do anything. Next they will go to Mars and "help" the VW customers there too.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> You know, for ****s and giggles I Google'd "EPA corruption" And the **** that came up is pretty bad.


Ironically I googled cognitive dissonance, and it referred me to this thread. Huh, weird. :screwy:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

spockcat said:


> Perhaps the requirements for emissions systems are to last 120,000 miles WITHOUT the need for repair/replacement under normal usage and VW can't show the cars are able to do this.
> 
> https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/light-duty/tier2stds.htm


That just lists the expected standards. It says nothing about what's allowable as far as warranty replacement or coverage in the event those standards can't be met. And given the fact that longevity of parts is a big concern, I don't see why the EPA, or anyone, would have a problem with VW extending warranties to 200k-250k miles on all emissions system parts. Parts are replaced when they go bad at no cost to the customer. Emissions are in spec, the longevity of parts is taken care of. Win/win.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

GoHomeBroke said:


> Why not? It's already been shown they can meet certified emission levels in test mode. Put it in test mode to keep the emissions levels within regulated specifications, extend warranties to cover parts failing before they should, and boom. Fixed.


I'm open to having options. Though, the extended warranty would need to be really long. I've already been screwed by VW when I had to pay to replace a faulty valve on the revised intercooler kit.


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

GoHomeBroke said:


> That just lists the expected standards. It says nothing about what's allowable as far as warranty replacement or coverage in the event those standards can't be met. And given the fact that longevity of parts is a big concern, I don't see why the EPA, or anyone, would have a problem with VW extending warranties to 200k-250k miles on all emissions system parts. Parts are replaced when they go bad at no cost to the customer. Emissions are in spec, the longevity of parts is taken care of. Win/win.


Well, for one, constantly replacing emissions equipment due to early failure is also bad for the environment, so it's not really fixing the problem. Two, we don't really know if just because it passes the test in 'test mode' that it's not otherwise still polluting heavily when driven in the real world. Three, there could also be serious changes to the power and drivability in test mode.

In other words, all the stuff said here on page 1...


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

vwwtchr said:


> Ironically I googled cognitive dissonance, and it referred me to this thread. Huh, weird. :screwy:


Self-hating TDi owners?


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

zhenya00 said:


> Well, for one, constantly replacing emissions equipment due to early failure is also bad for the environment, so it's not really fixing the problem. Two, we don't really know if just because it passes the test in 'test mode' that it's not otherwise still polluting heavily when driven in the real world. Three, there could also be serious changes to the power and drivability in test mode.
> 
> In other words, all the stuff said here on page 1...


I can't speculate too much on the environmental impact of replacing the emissions equipment, because we don't know how often the majority of them would fail if put into test mode full time. However, if the car is programmed to stay in test mode full time, it will meet EPA regulations. The EPA says it passes in test mode. It took an independent study to find out real world mode was the problem. The "defeat device" program looks for specific readings to determine whether it's being tested or not, right? I'm sure VW has programmers that could figure out how to program it to stay in test mode all the time. That checks the box of "does it meet emissions requirements". Now the question becomes two fold. 1)How long will the emissions system parts last, and 2)Will this affect MPG/Performance significantly enough to warrant further lawsuits from customers?

Extended warranties for the parts to cover longevity issues. (This is assuming that wear and tear from full time test mode isn't significant enough to break them every year)
Given owners reporting higher than advertised numbers for their MPG, I think test mode will bring it closer to advertised. (Performance will be the issue only butt dynos can judge)


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

GoHomeBroke said:


> Why not? It's already been shown they can meet certified emission levels in test mode. Put it in test mode to keep the emissions levels within regulated specifications, extend warranties to cover parts failing before they should, and boom. Fixed.


If it were that simple, don't you think VW would've proposed that idea already? My guess is there is some other downside to running in the "test" mode (e.g. fuel economy, power, durability) and they can't meet other requirements.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

GoHomeBroke said:


> That just lists the expected standards. It says nothing about what's allowable as far as warranty replacement or coverage in the event those standards can't be met. And given the fact that longevity of parts is a big concern, I don't see why the EPA, or anyone, would have a problem with VW extending warranties to 200k-250k miles on all emissions system parts. Parts are replaced when they go bad at no cost to the customer. Emissions are in spec, the longevity of parts is taken care of. Win/win.


You're assuming that solution is acceptable to VW from an economic standpoint and to EPA/CARB from a regulatory standpoint. I'm just making up numbers for an example, but what if the SCR catalyst only lasted a mean of 25,000 miles when running in "test" mode all the time? If that were the case, I sincerely doubt either party would find that an acceptable solution.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

BUJonathan said:


> You're assuming that solution is acceptable to VW from an economic standpoint and to EPA/CARB from a regulatory standpoint. I'm just making up numbers for an example, but what if the SCR catalyst only lasted a mean of 25,000 miles when running in "test" mode all the time? If that were the case, I sincerely doubt either party would find that an acceptable solution.


CARB/EPA wouldn't worry about the financial impact on VW in the slightest. The problem would be that if the SCR catalyst had to be replaced every 25,000 miles to reduce pollution, how much *more *pollution would be created in making all those cats so they could be replaced every 25k miles? There may be WAY more tons of CO2/NOx released with the manufacture of all those cats than would be eliminated with with their replacement every 25k miles.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

They don't think like that. They just want VW to fix the emissions on the vehicles even if the production of the equipment to do so creates 5 times more emissions then they're preventing. Besides, those catalysts might not be made in the us anyway.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

JitteryJoe said:


> They don't think like that. They just want VW to fix the emissions on the vehicles even if the production of the equipment to do so creates 5 times more emissions then they're preventing. Besides, those catalysts might not be made in the us anyway.


Yep.
It's all still VW's fault.
VW needs to make the car's legal.
Any added pollution to make them legal is all on VW's hands.
We need to not just stop moving the goalposts, but also the field.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

T5 Dave said:


> CARB/EPA wouldn't worry about the financial impact on VW in the slightest. The problem would be that if the SCR catalyst had to be replaced every 25,000 miles to reduce pollution, how much *more *pollution would be created in making all those cats so they could be replaced every 25k miles? There may be WAY more tons of CO2/NOx released with the manufacture of all those cats than would be eliminated with with their replacement every 25k miles.


That's not what I said. EPA and CARB make and enforce the regulations. It's up to VW to figure out how to meet them -- the EPA and CARB won't do that for them. VW is not going to propose a method that's economically unfeasible to the company -- that's a matter of basic economics.

The regulations dictate service life of the emissions controls. There is a difference between a component that has a designed service life significantly less than the regulation (e.g. 25,000 miles actual versus 125,000 miles requirement) and a component that fails during warranty as a matter of statistical probability.

I don't believe the EPA takes into account total life cycle emissions to manufacture the controls, at least not at a case-by-case situation. Perhaps they take that into account when drafting the regulations, but not for each individual vehicle application.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

BUJonathan said:


> That's not what I said. EPA and CARB make and enforce the regulations. It's up to VW to figure out how to meet them -- the EPA and CARB won't do that for them. VW is not going to propose a method that's economically unfeasible to the company -- that's a matter of basic economics.
> 
> The regulations dictate service life of the emissions controls. There is a difference between a component that has a designed service life significantly less than the regulation (e.g. 25,000 miles actual versus 125,000 miles requirement) and a component that fails during warranty as a matter of statistical probability.
> 
> I don't believe the EPA takes into account total life cycle emissions to manufacture the controls, at least not at a case-by-case situation. Perhaps they take that into account when drafting the regulations, but not for each individual vehicle application.


Yeah, I just don't know if EPA/CARB would be sensitive to the fact that making us replace the cats every 25k miles would cause more pollution that what was being saved by their replacement. They might be, but I don't know.


----------



## robr2 (May 5, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> How can a US law firm represent people in a foreign country?





Car Problems said:


> Typical lawyers thinking they can do anything. Next they will go to Mars and "help" the VW customers there too.


Because they are a global firm with offices in Berlin.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

T5 Dave said:


> Yeah, I just don't know if EPA/CARB would be sensitive to the fact that making us replace the cats every 25k miles would cause more pollution that what was being saved by their replacement. They might be, but I don't know.


Yes they would and here's why: The EPA wants a reasonable assurance that the car will remain in compliance with all applicable regulations throughout the full useful life of the vehicle. How many people would get fed up with having to replace their SCR system every couple years and just say fck it? Too many in the Feds estimation, and that's likely the sticking point in negotiations right now.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

spockcat said:


> *VW in talks with U.S. authorities over two funds to compensate diesel scandal, report says*
> 
> In bargaining so far, U.S. and California officials have insisted that any settlement give all customers the right to sell their cars back to Volkswagen, if they want to, said one of the people.
> 
> While VW has said buybacks are a possibility, fixing the cars is the company's preferred option. In cases where durability of emissions controls is a concern, the government may require Volkswagen to expand its warranties and *replace catalytic converters or other equipment every 25,000 miles,* said John German, co-lead of the International Council on Clean Transportation. The ICCT is a nonprofit group that helped expose Volkswagen's cheating last year.


That's every year for me. I'm not replacing my emissions equipment every year. Even if it's paid for by VW.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

classicjetta said:


> Yes they would and here's why: The EPA wants a reasonable assurance that the car will remain in compliance with all applicable regulations throughout the full useful life of the vehicle. How many people would get fed up with having to replace their SCR system every couple years and just say fck it? Too many in the Feds estimation, and that's likely the sticking point in negotiations right now.


Oh, I see your point. I was thinking of the pollution created only by the manufacturing process to build all the new cats needed to be replaced every 25 k miles. You're saying after all those replacements were all built not that many people would change them often enough and the car would revert to pollute mode, causing even more pollution than if they hadn't even bothered from all that new manufacturing *plus *the lack of installation in the old cars.

All we can do is see what happens. . . .


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

thegoose said:


> That's every year for me. I'm not replacing my emissions equipment every year. Even if it's paid for by VW.


LOLLLLLL @ requiring owners to replace DPF and EGR/catalyst systems at the frequency of Fuel filters - that will go over real well - How does the friggin math even add up to them to do that, and the fact that its an all afternoon job for a tech, its not an oil change.

VW really has been smoking the reefer if they think that is the solution. Regardless they should extend the warranty on EXISTING emissions equipment though, I haven't seen many DPFs that make it to 120k miles without needing to be replaced sooner.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

Ricky Bobby said:


> LOLLLLLL @ requiring owners to replace DPF and EGR/catalyst systems at the frequency of Fuel filters


I honestly thought it was a typographical error at first...


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

I'd gladly let them replace my emissions equipment every 7 months if they give me a loaner gti on those weeks.


----------



## WRXGuy (Feb 20, 2002)

grawk said:


> I'd gladly let them replace my emissions equipment every 7 months if they give me a loaner gti on those weeks.


I see from your sig that you're a habitual VW customer... you'd be lucky to get a 2013 2.slow Jetta loaner that's smells of dirty diapers ("Oh, we're out of loaners - sorry!")... sorry, no GTI's for you!

On my last GTI, they'd at least call Hertz Local Edition for you - where I'd pick out a Mazda instead of a VW product. Just because. umpkin:


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

WRXGuy said:


> I see from your sig that you're a habitual VW customer... *you'd be lucky to get a 2013 2.slow Jetta* loaner that's smells of dirty diapers ("Oh, we're out of loaners - sorry!")... sorry, no GTI's for you!
> 
> On my last GTI, they'd at least call Hertz Local Edition for you - where I'd pick out a Mazda instead of a VW product. Just because. umpkin:


Yeah, this.

If you're lucky, you _might_ get a stripper Passat. No way you'd get a GTI as a loaner.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

*EPA <*



Ricky Bobby said:


> LOLLLLLL @ requiring owners to replace DPF and EGR/catalyst systems at the frequency of Fuel filters - that will go over real well - How does the friggin math even add up to them to do that, and the fact that its an all afternoon job for a tech, its not an oil change.
> 
> VW really has been smoking the reefer if they think that is the solution. Regardless they should extend the warranty on EXISTING emissions equipment though, I haven't seen many DPFs that make it to 120k miles without needing to be replaced sooner.


Part of the problem is these things can vary so much. My 2010 Touareg just ticked over 106,000 miles. I checked the DPF readings with my VAG COM at it registered 26. According to the manual, replacement is at 48 if memory serves. I have no idea if the thing packs it in at a linear rate.

Regardless, I am getting a double hit owning two Touaregs. I have a 2010 TDI and a 2013 Touareg VR6. Before it was just a couple of car valuation tracking companies saying the gas models were declining in value to the tune of 2% to 3%. Now the VW financial arms are taking write downs on future lease returns. 

So I guess it is official, gas owners are being kicked around too.

These morons are into me for several thousands in reduced valuations. Mostly because they are managing so poorly. And unless I missed something, no one is including the gas model owners in any of these lawsuits. 



And one more beef....

The US EPA, is taking us all for a ride on this. Remember, "never let a good crisis go to waste". 

Getting funding for their agenda via fines is not their mission. How about they get the money and fund improvements to their vehicle testing equipment so we don't all get hosed in the future? How about some better EPA leadership so folks in Flint don't drink crappy water? How about better plans and equipment for cleaning up mine waste sites (I have big issues with mine waste flowing down a river due to their incompetence). 

Why are we (EPA) trying to force VW to build electric cars, fund charging infrastructure or pay for NOx credits? Pay for NOx credits? Really? I thought NOx was killing us, you know poison? So I guess if you pay the EPA enough, you can pollute more. Well, we already knew that.

TRY DOING YOUR JOB EPA! Yes I was yelling. 

EPA < VW. VW < reputable corporation. EPA + VW < dogs.

Having said that, I really love TDI powered rigs. probably will not give mine up.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> Yeah, this.
> 
> If you're lucky, you _might_ get a stripper Passat. No way you'd get a GTI as a loaner.





WRXGuy said:


> I see from your sig that you're a habitual VW customer... you'd be lucky to get a 2013 2.slow Jetta loaner that's smells of dirty diapers ("Oh, we're out of loaners - sorry!")... sorry, no GTI's for you!
> 
> On my last GTI, they'd at least call Hertz Local Edition for you - where I'd pick out a Mazda instead of a VW product. Just because. umpkin:


I've done pretty well with my dealer, tho admittedly no GTIs. I had a buddy get a Golf R tho. I'd just time the service for when I didn't care what I was driving, which is most of the fall and winter, and some of the spring and summer.


----------



## WRXGuy (Feb 20, 2002)

grawk said:


> I've done pretty well with my dealer, tho admittedly no GTIs. I had a buddy get a Golf R tho. I'd just time the service for when I didn't care what I was driving, which is most of the fall and winter, and some of the spring and summer.


5 VW's total, and the usual line was "no loaners if it's not an overnight repair.". If it DID turn into an overnight repair, I'd usually get a call at 5:15PM-- "Oh yeah, we didn't get to it today -- if you want a rental (which I had to pay the tax on!), you better get here (how, teleport there? Uber? Fly my magic broom?) before 6!"

:facepalm:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

thegoose said:


> That's every year for me. I'm not replacing my emissions equipment every year. Even if it's paid for by VW.


Just curious but why not? You must get oil changes and a new oil filter at least that often. So the proposal is that you get a new "exhaust filter" of sorts (either DPF or an actual catalyst or whatever) similar to how you must regularly get a new oil filter.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> Just curious but why not? You must get oil changes and a new oil filter at least that often. So the proposal is that you get a new "exhaust filter" of sorts (either DPF or an actual catalyst or whatever) similar to how you must regularly get a new oil filter.


Because waiting for an oil change at the dealer is like 30 mins, maybe 60 mins tops, whereas replacing the DPF is probably a 1/2 day job. And what happens if you planned to keep the car out of warranty? DPFs are pricey because of the raw materials.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

BUJonathan said:


> Because waiting for an oil change at the dealer is like 30 mins, maybe 60 mins tops, whereas replacing the DPF is probably a 1/2 day job. And what happens if you planned to keep the car out of warranty? DPFs are pricey because of the raw materials.


I've never had a dealer do an oil change that quickly. It's always an hour, sometimes more. Any real dealership does a lot more than an oil change anyway. They're lubing door hinges, suspension points, taking the wheels off to measure tread depth and brake pad depth, and then finally the car gets wheeled around back for a wash & vacuum. Yes, doing a DPF adds time, but we're talking about once every 25,000 miles. You say "warranty" but honestly if VW wants to make this right, it needs to be something like a 20 year, unlimited miles warranty.

I had a 1990's Honda Civic from back when Honda had a bad batch of catalysts. They extended the warranty to 120,000 miles, which seemed like a lot... until I had over 120,000 miles. My parents had to replace one of their out of warranty and I was certainly relieved that my own Honda made it over 170k miles when I finally sold it, having never replaced the catalyst. Anyway, point being that VW would need to do a time limited unlimited mileage warranty for the emissions components, otherwise it's just a farce since a bunch of the older TDI's are undoubtedly over 100k miles already.


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

VT1.8T said:


> "_In bargaining so far, U.S. and California officials have insisted that any settlement give all customers the right to sell their cars back to Volkswagen, if they want to, said one of the people.
> 
> While VW has said buybacks are a possibility, fixing the cars is the company's preferred option. In cases where durability of emissions controls is a concern, the government may require Volkswagen to expand its warranties and replace catalytic converters or other equipment every 25,000 miles, said John German, co-lead of the International Council on Clean Transportation. The ICCT is a nonprofit group that helped expose Volkswagen's cheating last year.
> 
> ...


I'm a little surprised that there is speculation about no hope of fixing the 2.0L cars with urea and SCR (the ones already equipped with it). Chevy and BMW have 2.0L 4-cylinder diesels with SCR already that meet standards, so VW can't tweak these cars as well?

(I can see the challenge with VW's LNT cars of course.)


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> I've never had a dealer do an oil change that quickly. It's always an hour, sometimes more. Any real dealership does a lot more than an oil change anyway. They're lubing door hinges, suspension points, taking the wheels off to measure tread depth and brake pad depth, and then finally the car gets wheeled around back for a wash & vacuum. Yes, doing a DPF adds time, but we're talking about once every 25,000 miles. You say "warranty" but honestly if VW wants to make this right, it needs to be something like a 20 year, unlimited miles warranty.
> 
> I had a 1990's Honda Civic from back when Honda had a bad batch of catalysts. They extended the warranty to 120,000 miles, which seemed like a lot... until I had over 120,000 miles. My parents had to replace one of their out of warranty and I was certainly relieved that my own Honda made it over 170k miles when I finally sold it, having never replaced the catalyst. Anyway, point being that VW would need to do a time limited unlimited mileage warranty for the emissions components, otherwise it's just a farce since a bunch of the older TDI's are undoubtedly over 100k miles already.


If it's taking your dealer 1.5 hours to do an oil change, imagine how much longer a DPF replacement will take. Whether it's 30 minutes or 2 hours for your oil change is beside the point. TDI customers drive greater miles (hence the point of buying a TDI). You admitted that yourself in your post. Customers aren't going to be happy about sitting around and waiting at a dealership for 4+ hours for their annual -- maybe even twice annual -- DPF replacement.

I sure as heck don't see VW volunteering for a "20 year, unlimited miles warranty" on such an expensive to replace item. Remanufactured DPFs are ~$1400. You can guess at what new ones cost.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

gti_matt said:


> I'm a little surprised that there is speculation about no hope of fixing the 2.0L cars with urea and SCR (the ones already equipped with it). Chevy and BMW have 2.0L 4-cylinder diesels with SCR already that meet standards, so VW can't tweak these cars as well?
> 
> (I can see the challenge with VW's LNT cars of course.)


I have my doubts that the SCR models will be ruled unfixable, but if that's true it casts quite a dark cloud over the future of the 3.0 SCR models as well, since they should be designed the same as the 2.0 SCR models.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> I have my doubts that the SCR models will be ruled unfixable, but if that's true it casts quite a dark cloud over the future of the 3.0 SCR models as well, since they should be designed the same as the 2.0 SCR models.


VW already submitted a fix for the 3.0L models: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-california-idUSKCN0VC01V


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

WRXGuy said:


> 5 VW's total, and the usual line was "no loaners if it's not an overnight repair.". If it DID turn into an overnight repair, I'd usually get a call at 5:15PM-- "Oh yeah, we didn't get to it today -- if you want a rental (which I had to pay the tax on!), you better get here (how, teleport there? Uber? Fly my magic broom?) before 6!"
> 
> :facepalm:


The response to that should be "Ok, I'll take it to the other VW dealer across town"


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

grawk said:


> The response to that should be "Ok, I'll take it to the other VW dealer across town"












Like that would help :laugh:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> It's always an hour, sometimes more. Any real dealership does a lot more than an oil change anyway. They're lubing door hinges, suspension points, taking the wheels off to measure tread depth and brake pad depth


So its people like you that encourage a service department to try and sell me a cabin filter everytime I have something done :laugh:


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

AZGolf said:


> Just curious but why not? You must get oil changes and a new oil filter at least that often. So the proposal is that you get a new "exhaust filter" of sorts (either DPF or an actual catalyst or whatever) similar to how you must regularly get a new oil filter.


When they gave me free maintenance and a loaner for the first 50k, it was barely tolerable having service done. The two occasions I didn't receive the loaner promised to me at the sale of the vehicle were brutal. I had a 7 o'clock appointment for my 30k, and didn't leave until almost 10 o'clock. I literally could have done it myself and made it to work on time at 8. So pleasant is VW service, I bought a vagcom to be able to do the dsg and fuel filter services myself. 

Maybe if VW gave it to me and then paid me the warranty labor time to install it, I would agree to it. :laugh:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

As of today, March 18th (at least Eastern), we're officially at 6 months since VW went public with their cheating. Their court date is now less than a week away, Thursday, March 24th. I'm hopeful we'll see this come to conclusion now.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW seeks comprehensive deal on emissions with U.S. regulators, report says*



> HAMBURG (Reuters) -- Volkswagen Group aims to agree a deal with U.S. authorities that resolves as many issues related to its emissions-cheating scandal as possible at once, a senior manager at the German carmaker told Reuters.
> 
> "It must be our goal to negotiate a comprehensive solution, which could also include the lion's share of expected penalties," the person, who asked not to be named because talks with U.S. authorities were confidential, said on Thursday.
> 
> ...


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Article from March 11, not sure if already posted. I thought it was interesting - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-11/vw-toys-with-giving-up-the-u-s-mass-market-and-dealers-fume



> *VW Toys With Giving Up the U.S. Mass Market, and Dealers Fume*
> 
> The suggestion was startling: Maybe VW should give up on selling cars to America’s masses. It was late January, at the Detroit auto show, and Herbert Diess, the global chief of Volkswagen AG’s namesake brand, was sounding out U.S. dealers as the company grappled with the biggest crisis in its modern history. *Perhaps, Diess wondered aloud, VW should stop trying to compete with the likes of Toyota Motor Corp. in America and go back to focusing on higher-end models.*
> 
> ...


----------



## russconn (Jan 14, 2005)

dmorrow said:


> Article from March 11, not sure if already posted. I thought it was interesting - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-11/vw-toys-with-giving-up-the-u-s-mass-market-and-dealers-fume


Yeah, there is a whole separate thread on this article alone  :

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...iving-Up-the-U-S-Mass-Market-and-Dealers-Fume


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

WRXGuy said:


> 5 VW's total, and the usual line was "no loaners if it's not an overnight repair.".


You know that is a VW policy, not the dealers? So if it is in for a free service or warranty work that won't take a full day that is entirely normal, why should a dealer cough up 25 bucks of the 50 after paying the tech they are going to make on a 10k service? 

If you are in for a cash 800 buck timing belt change they may give you one as they aren't giving away 50% of their profit.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

chris86vw said:


> You know that is a VW policy, not the dealers? So if it is in for a free service or warranty work that won't take a full day that is entirely normal, why should a dealer cough up 25 bucks of the 50 after paying the tech they are going to make on a 10k service?
> 
> If you are in for a cash 800 buck timing belt change they may give you one as they aren't giving away 50% of their profit.


I get a loaner at Mercedes and Lexus for any and all work and bought both used. That was a huge factor is getting the used Lexus over a new Passat last year. Same initial outlay, CPO vs. full-factory warranty, stellar service over typical VW bs. Was a no-brainer. :thumbup:

And no, Mercedes nor Lexus are any more expensive than the same VW service since VW=Audi prices on parts and service. :thumbdown:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> And no, Mercedes nor Lexus are any more expensive than the same VW service since VW=Audi prices on parts and service. :thumbdown:


LOL @ Audi and VW having the same price on parts and service. 

The VW dealer I get my car serviced at deals with Audi customers all the time. Because, and I'm quoting them on this, "It's cheaper than taking it to Audi". :wave:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> I get a loaner at Mercedes and Lexus for any and all work and bought both used.


Fantastic, just hope you aren't kidding yourself and believe that isn't built into the price, just like "Free" services, and warranty work.

Heck every car sold has a chunk of money going into a goodwill fund, so when they cover something outside warranty you also already paid for that too.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

chris86vw said:


> Fantastic, just hope you aren't kidding yourself and believe that isn't built into the price, just like "Free" services, and warranty work.
> 
> Heck every car sold has a chunk of money going into a goodwill fund, so when they cover something outside warranty you also already paid for that too.


If a synthetic oil change at Mercedes for my C55 is the same price as one for the wife's Passat, but Mercedes gives me a loaner, what am I missing? Oh yeah, crap VW service after the sale, a company staple. :wave:

And I buy used, so no idea where they're getting the money for my "goodwill fund"?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> what am I missing?


That 100 or so bucks was added into the cost of the car or the cost of the dealer to buy the CPO from MB that wasn't added into on the Passat.

You paid for it already, you just don't realize it.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

chris86vw said:


> You paid for it already, you just don't realize it.


You missed a straw over there.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> If a synthetic oil change at Mercedes for my C55 is the same price as one for the wife's Passat, but Mercedes gives me a loaner, what am I missing? Oh yeah, crap VW service after the sale, a company staple. :wave:
> 
> And I buy used, so no idea where they're getting the money for my "goodwill fund"?


Hint: The MB dealer isn't making money on your oil change. At least not much. However, compare the price of a spring and shock replacement on a Passat, vs. replacing the active suspension on the higher-end MBs like an S-Class and you'll quickly see where they make their margins.

It's myopic to compare the cost of oil changes (even if they are similar) and think that a VW dealer should provide the same level of service as a luxury marque. Oil changes are usually a loss leader to get you in the door.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Explaining free loaners and free services aren't really free is not even remotely a strawman.

These are all built into the price that you already paid. 


I worked at Audi when they got rid of the free services, it was very openly discussed that they could charge every customer 300-500 more per car and they bitch about the price increase or we can offer it as an add on and the people who want it get it, and the people that do not want it won't see a price increase. There was about 1500 built into the car for goodwill also so if something came in 5k out of warranty and needed something basic the regional rep could just ok it without too much hassle, so your "Free" tie rod ends and alignment 5k out of warranty were already paid for by you the day you bought the car. Buying used doesn't change that either.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

chris86vw said:


> Explaining free loaners and free services aren't really free is not even remotely a strawman.


I bought my Mercedes non-CPO at a Lexus dealer and my local MB dealer treats me very well when I have work done on it (and their prices are comparable with the local indie).


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

russconn said:


> Yeah, there is a whole separate thread on this article alone  :
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...iving-Up-the-U-S-Mass-Market-and-Dealers-Fume


Thanks, I really haven't spent much time here in the last couple of months and even then really haven't left the "My Posts" section.



Silly_me said:


> I bought my Mercedes non-CPO at a Lexus dealer and my local MB dealer treats me very well when I have work done on it (and their prices are comparable with the local indie).


Yes they build the price of loaners into the new cars and the service and the good service you receive, even as a 2nd owner help keep the resale values up and improves the chances you will buy another MB and from them. Luxury dealers don't magically come up with loaners without also figuring out how to pay for them.

Interesting there will be one thread on how luxury cars aren't worth the money, then another pointing out the extra's you get with a luxury car and why can't all companies offer these extras. I agree they probably aren't a smart buy but there is more to the purchase than just the list of equipment that is included.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Every dealer I have shopped tells me that will give free loaners during service as long as I own the vehicles- even used ones.
That's how you make the sell and get people in for service.
But you do have to schedule the loaners.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

An article from today - 

http://autoweek.com/article/vw-diesel-scandal/report-vw-talks-establish-funds-repay-diesel-cheating?utm_source=DailyDrive20160318&utm_medium=enewsletter&utm_term=headline-center&utm_content=body&utm_campaign=awdailydrive



> *U.S. and California regulators want automaker to promote clean transportation*
> 
> Volkswagen is in negotiations with U.S. regulators to establish two remediation funds as compensation for diesel emissions cheating, Bloomberg reports.
> 
> ...


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

chris86vw said:


> Explaining free loaners and free services aren't really free is not even remotely a strawman.
> 
> These are all built into the price that you already paid.


So the guy I bought the car from halfway across the country bilked me for MB's service costs and loaners? Who knew? 

I'll continue to take advantage of the free loaners subsidized by E and S-Class owners, thanks. :thumbup:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> So the guy I bought the car from halfway across the country bilked me for MB's service costs and loaners?


It is all part of the dealer model at that level, part of the new car price and as mentioned by dmorrow part of what keeps resale values up and people going back to the dealer. Just because you bought yours across the country doesn't mean your local dealer didn't already get the money from selling 5 cars they never saw again for any services that covers their expenses for giving you a loaner. 

If you bring your Passat to the MB dealer, since the price is the same, do you believe you'd still get a free loaner?


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

chris86vw said:


> It is all part of the dealer model at that level, part of the new car price and as mentioned by dmorrow part of what keeps resale values up and people going back to the dealer. Just because you bought yours across the country doesn't mean your local dealer didn't already get the money from selling 5 cars they never saw again for any services that covers their expenses for giving you a loaner.
> 
> If you bring your Passat to the MB dealer, since the price is the same, do you believe you'd still get a free loaner?


Are you ever just wrong? Seriously, lawyers who've gone on to become politicians don't twist and turn words as much as you do. Fact is, *I* get free loaners. Me, because I'm not paying any more for their service and/or parts over the wife's Passat or any indy mechanic in the area. I'm not saying MB doesn't still make money while providing loaners, but I personally don't pay "extra" for it. Does their business model take the loaners into account and still provide them with tons of profit? Duh, but I'm only talking about my situation. Not an entire company's business model. :facepalm:

As for your last rhetorical question, no, but can you take a new VW and get a loaner without pulling teeth? No? Should'a bought a better used car then maybe? Now, you go and enjoy your dieselgate drama. :wave:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Are you ever just wrong?


Often, I have the balls to admit it even when I am which I have numerous times in this very thread.

If you want to talk about your service loaners when going in for paid services great, but I believe we were talking about warranty loaners and manufactures paying for that which you for some reason turned into oil changes loaners and you started the actual strawman on that topic, which is completely unrelated to the one actually being discussed.

So yeah lets get back to dieselgate and if there was some every 25k mile WARRANTY procedure everyone needed and would possibly want a loaner for, not oil changes on unrelated used cars. :thumbup:


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

chris86vw said:


> Often, I have the balls to admit it even when I am which I have numerous times in this very thread.
> 
> If you want to talk about your service loaners when going in for paid services great, but I believe we were talking about warranty loaners and manufactures paying for that which you for some reason turned into oil changes loaners and you started the actual strawman on that topic, which is completely unrelated to the one actually being discussed.
> 
> So yeah lets get back to dieselgate and if there was some every 25k mile WARRANTY procedure everyone needed and would possibly want a loaner for, not oil changes on unrelated used cars. :thumbup:


Ok, I quoted you stating it's VW's corporate policy not to provide loaners except for warranty work. My response was along the tone of, "yeah, I know (as a 25+ year VW owner), but you can buy a used X or Y and get loaners for the even smallest of service(s)". Compared to pulling teeth for a VW loaner for nearly any service. Warranty or not. Which, after 25+ years of ownership, I'm more than well aware of. This brought you and another user to try and explain to me how the X and/or Y loaners weren't in fact free, when in actuality, to me, they are. :thumbup:

And on that note, I'm going to "Air and Water do mix" ya' and pretend you're not here. :wave:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> . This brought you and another user to try and explain to me how the X and/or Y loaners weren't in fact free, when in actuality, to me, they are. :thumbup:


cool you hate knowing things and are in denial, can't imagine wanting to live like that but if that is how you want to I'm fine with that I guess. :thumbup:




> And on that note, I'm going to "Air and Water do mix" ya' and pretend you're not here. :wave:


Sweet, so you ask if I"m ever wrong then prove that when you are wrong running is the way to go. Way to be an adult.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW managers knew of possible $20 billion penalties in Aug. 2015, report says*



> FRANKFURT (Reuters) -- Volkswagen's core brand chief and its head of procurement were told in an internal meeting on Aug. 24, 2015, that the automaker could face potential penalties of more than $20 billion for the use of illegal software in its vehicles, weekly magazine Der Spiegel reported today.
> 
> Citing people who took part in a meeting of the VW brand management board, the magazine said that VW brand chief Herbert Diess and Francisco Javier Garcia Sanz were told that illegal software was installed in diesel cars by Volkswagen in the United States.
> 
> ...


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

I am an old Soldier

FUBAR seems to come to mind


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Has anyone heard how Alan Brown's meeting went in Stuttgart? Last I heard he was trying to keep VW in volume sales mode and not go upscale boutique ala Volvo. The brass was trying to do the latter and the US dealers and Michael Horn were pushing for the former. Don't know if Alan was able to convince the bigwigs or not.


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

T5 Dave said:


> Has anyone heard how Alan Brown's meeting went in Stuttgart? Last I heard he was trying to keep VW in volume sales mode and not go upscale boutique ala Volvo. The brass was trying to do the latter and the US dealers and Michael Horn were pushing for the former. Don't know if Alan was able to convince the bigwigs or not.


Well, the German brass is apparently saying the right things (to pacify the dealers)....whether they follow through is another matter.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/...ore-chattanooga-product-official-says/356049/


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> there are 3 of us on just the last 2 pages that think the same of you, so not "lonely".


Actually, three people on a forum supported by almost a million members is very lonely, indeed. And, there is no pride in even minuscule numbers when being on the dark side.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

feels_road said:


> Actually, three people on a forum supported by almost a million members is very lonely, indeed. And, there is no pride in even minuscule numbers when being on the dark side.


Bahahaha! You and chris enjoy the high-road. Must be lonely being the only two up there. :facepalm:


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I wish y'all would shut up.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

.yuk. said:


> I wish y'all would shut up.


Great post since everything's been calm for 45ish hours now. :thumbup: :facepalm:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

So does anyone think something big will become of the Thursday deadline? VW has already said that the current 2.0 likely can't be fixed.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

aj4066 said:


> So does anyone think something big will become of the Thursday deadline? VW has already said that the current 2.0 likely can't be fixed.


We've waited 6 months already, let's wait until Thursday & see. Until then we're all flapping our gums.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

I have my doubts about anything being resolved. VW will buy a bunch of carbon credits, pay some giant fines, affected vehicles will get an EPA exemption and everyone will live happily ever after.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

aj4066 said:


> So does anyone think something big will become of the Thursday deadline? VW has already said that the current 2.0 likely can't be fixed.


 where did VW say that????


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

You'reDrunk said:


> where did VW say that????


VW didn't. Judge Breyer ordered VW to do so.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

MXTHOR3 said:


> I have my doubts about anything being resolved. VW will buy a bunch of carbon credits, pay some giant fines, affected vehicles will get an EPA exemption and everyone will live happily ever after.


All of this 100%. :thumbup:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

T5 Dave said:


> VW didn't. Judge Breyer ordered VW to do so.


and that's ALL he can do.

he has no power to MAKE them do anything more than pay fines.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

You'reDrunk said:


> where did VW say that????


VW didn't, CARB did. 

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-california-volkswagen-repairs-idUSKCN0WB05H
http://autoweek.com/article/vw-diesel-scandal/carb-full-fix-vw-diesels-may-not-be-possible


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

You'reDrunk said:


> and that's ALL he can do.
> 
> he has no power to MAKE them do anything more than pay fines.


This is the judge that will oversee all 500 class action suits (and possibly the federal suit) against VW. I wouldn't think VW will want to piss him off. . . . .


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Great post since everything's been calm for 45ish hours now. :thumbup: :facepalm:


Nobody got time to be playing on the vortex on the weekends. This is for when we are at work. :laugh:


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

.yuk. said:


> Nobody got time to be playing on the vortex on the weekends. This is for when we are at work. :laugh:


:thumbup:


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

.yuk. said:


> Nobody got time to be playing on the vortex on the weekends. This is for when we are at work. :laugh:





Accidental L8 apex said:


> :thumbup:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

T5 Dave said:


> This is the judge that will oversee all 500 class action suits (and possibly the federal suit) against VW. I wouldn't think VW will want to piss him off. . . . .


if he's an honest judge he will abide by the law, not his personal feelings.

it's law, not a game show.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

You'reDrunk said:


> *if he's an honest judge he will abide by the law, not his personal feelings.*
> 
> it's law, not a game show.


LOL send that memo to the Supreme Court


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

You'reDrunk said:


> if he's an honest judge he will abide by the law, not his personal feelings.
> 
> it's law, not a game show.


Laws are open to interpretation. That can change if the judge is pissed off. It's not black and white. Look at the Supreme Court and how they interpret things and why it's such a fuss to nominate anyone to it.


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Bahahaha! You and chris enjoy the high-road. Must be lonely being the only two up there. :facepalm:


I have no idea what you are insinuating, except that you are trying to scheme as ever, and your posts are still not car-related.

You have tried to promulgate falsehoods in this thread to the extend that you have made up your own version of reality, which of course you have been failing to sell - especially since this is a *car forum*, while you consistently argue away from that.



Accidental L8 apex said:


> Great post since everything's been calm for 45ish hours now. :thumbup: :facepalm:


Not sure what he or she posted, but the reality is that most people post with a sense of urgency when something or the meaning of something is important, at least to some, but less so if there is little car-related meaning or importance attached. For example, responding to you in this thread has had the absolute least priority to me, since it only involves clarifying to *other * readers that your posts should not and cannot be taken seriously, and have at no point involved actual or meaningful arguments or discussions with me nor other car enthusiast nor owners nor designers nor workers.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

feels_road said:


> I have no idea what you are insinuating, except that you are trying to scheme as ever, and your posts are still not car-related.
> 
> You have tried to promulgate falsehoods in this thread to the extend that you have made up your own version of reality, which of course you have been failing to sell - especially since this is a *car forum*, while you consistently argue away from that.
> 
> ...


If you didn't make your living rambling like this, you missed your calling. :thumbup:


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

Lol


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

feels_road said:


> I have no idea what you are insinuating, except that you are trying to scheme as ever, and your posts are still not car-related.
> 
> You have tried to promulgate falsehoods in this thread to the extend that you have made up your own version of reality, which of course you have been failing to sell - especially since this is a *car forum*, while you consistently argue away from that.
> 
> ...


Seriously? You can go away now. Your 60 seconds are way past up. 

This is a very important post, I expect a 3 paragraph response from you that includes information on the Statue of Liberty, the Mexican cartel and what television station should be #1, in your opinion of course.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW's U.S. dealers seek reparations for emissions scandal*



> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen’s U.S. dealers are seeking reparations from the automaker for financial damages caused by the company's emissions violations.
> 
> Three of VW’s U.S. dealers proposed the reparations during a meeting with senior VW AG executives in Germany last week about the company’s U.S. strategy.
> 
> ...


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

If I read this correctly, emissions cheating is nothing new in Europe 

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0WN18E



> EU officials who spoke to Reuters on condition of anonymity said that industry manipulation of the testing regime had been obvious for years. The European Commission failed to stop it, they said, because of the influence of the auto industry and because protecting a pillar of the economy was for many a higher priority than the environment.






--

sent from the aEther


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

g-man_ae said:


> If I read this correctly, emissions cheating is nothing new in Europe


It's part of the larger European mentality. Cheating _in general_ is tolerated in Europe. That's why France was so protective of their Prime Minister having an extra-marital affair, since cheating on your wife is accepted in France. All the time places claim "our credit card readers are down, cash only" because tax cheating is rampant. I could go on and on, but cheating of every type is rampant in Europe because of their desire to appear superior while in reality being inferior to America because they don't enforce the regulations they have.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

.yuk. said:


> Seriously? You can go away now. Your 60 seconds are way past up.
> 
> This is a very important post, I expect a 3 paragraph response from you that includes information on the Statue of Liberty, the Mexican cartel and what television station should be #1, in your opinion of course.


Excellent.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> All of this 100%. :thumbup:


Actually, The EPA and CARB are talking about NOx credits. Creating a whole new world of emissions credits, in addition to CO2 or CAFE credits as they are twisted to here in the US.

This is the beginning of the EPA putting a strangle hold on light truck market diesels. 

This is a double hit to Ford, FCA and GM as most of their profits come from light truck sales, a significant portion of which are diesels. In addition to the CAFE numbers, the EPA will also utilize NOx credits to increase the costs of manufacturing such vehicles. FCA is already in a world of hurt this year, after having to spend millions to purchase CAFE credits from several other manufactures. NOx credits will make it from bad to worse.

Of note here is that old ELON is really going to make out as TESLA already makes piles of money selling CAFE credits to other manufacturers. Now he can add NOx. Another government subsidy helping ELON. Smart dude.

I digress, NOx credits gentleman, NOx credits. A whole new world.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Volkswagen sued by Kentucky over diesel emissions cheating*



> WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Kentucky sued Volkswagen and its luxury units claiming the German automaker's diesel emissions cheating scheme violated the state's Consumer Protection Act.
> 
> "Volkswagen must be held accountable for its false and misleading promotion and sales of its vehicles in the Commonwealth," Kentucky Attorney General Andy Beshear said in a statement on Tuesday.
> 
> ...


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Lol glad to see my state joining the Lawsuit bandwagon even though nobody here gives 2 S***s about emissions :banghead:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

JitteryJoe said:


> Lol glad to see my state joining the Lawsuit bandwagon even though nobody here gives 2 S***s about emissions :banghead:


They're in it for the $$$.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

GoHomeBroke said:


> They're in it for the $$$.


I just came here to mention that. This is now just like all the tobacco lawsuits where states dogpile so they can extract additional money for themselves under the banner of "public health." It looks like KY saw some other states doing it, and they wanted to get in on the action.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

JitteryJoe said:


> Lol glad to see my state joining the Lawsuit bandwagon even though nobody here gives 2 S***s about emissions :banghead:


We'd drive electric vehicles but our electricity is burnt coal :laugh:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

GoHomeBroke said:


> They're in it for the $$$.


Kentucky is trying to figure out how to pay for all of the pensions. I don't remember how long it is before the pension fund runs out, but the clock is ticking.



Silly_me said:


> We'd drive electric vehicles but our electricity is burnt coal :laugh:


It's still cleaner than a gasser! (Fewer $ per mile, too.:thumbup


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Air and water do mix said:


> It's still cleaner than a gasser!


Nope-> http://www.pnas.org/content/111/52/18490.abstract



PNAS said:


> Our assessment of the life cycle air quality impacts on human health of 10 alternatives to conventional gasoline vehicles finds that electric vehicles (EVs) powered by electricity from natural gas or wind, water, or solar power are best for improving air quality, whereas vehicles powered by corn ethanol and* EVs powered by coal are the worst. *


emphasis: mine.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> Nope-> http://www.pnas.org/content/111/52/18490.abstract
> 
> emphasis: mine.


Hmmmm. I hadn't seen reports that had drawn that conclusion. There are still compelling reasons to buy/drive them (including moving pollution away from population centers), but if it's a net loss for the environment with coal-fired electricity, that's a big demerit. C'est la vie. :beer:


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

Looks like South Carolina hasn't sued VW, not that I expect it to. Nobody cares about emissions here either and I'm fine with that :thumbup:

If I did own a TDI I'd be a lot more concerned with the fact that I was cheated by VW and not the emissions.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Air and water do mix said:


> Hmmmm. I hadn't seen reports that had drawn that conclusion. There are still compelling reasons to buy/drive them (including moving pollution away from population centers), but if it's a net loss for the environment with coal-fired electricity, that's a big demerit. C'est la vie. :beer:


Yeah, but we can't do wind, we can't do solar, out best bet is nuclear, but we are still scared of a BBQ occurrence.


----------



## dirtyfingers (Apr 29, 2007)

So 270 pages in, what's the cliffs notes at this stage?

Basically VW has yet to settle and/or provide a fix? Is there still a risk of VW pulling out of the US?


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

dirtyfingers said:


> So 270 pages in, what's the cliffs notes at this stage?
> 
> Basically VW has yet to settle and/or provide a fix? Is there still a risk of VW pulling out of the US?


some answers should come about tomorrow. the 24th is the deadline the EPA gave VW to come up with a resolution.


----------



## SJ_GTI (Aug 2, 2006)

dirtyfingers said:


> So 270 pages in, what's the cliffs notes at this stage?





dirtyfingers said:


> Basically VW has yet to settle and/or provide a fix...


...


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

jreed1337 said:


> some answers should come about tomorrow. the 24th is the deadline the EPA gave VW to come up with a resolution.


That deadline is from the judge overseeing the class action lawsuit, nothing to do with the EPA.


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> That deadline is from the judge overseeing the class action lawsuit, nothing to do with the EPA.


ah okay, thanks. sorry for the misinformation. i've been thinking that the entire time now... :laugh:


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

Silly_me said:


> That deadline is from the judge overseeing the class action lawsuit, nothing to do with the EPA.


Also need Cliff's. What is that deadline in regards to?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> That deadline is from the judge overseeing the class action lawsuit, nothing to do with the EPA.


You're wrong, as usual. Judge Breyer is the judge assigned for the U.S. Department of Justice case against Volkswagen which is the very essence of the involvement of the EPA. He just happens to _also_ be assigned for additional lawsuits, but the one that matters most is the US DoJ suit against VW.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> You're wrong, as usual.


As usual? -> http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/crb/vwmdl 

MDL = class action suit.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Got a little video update from the class-action that I am in and they fully expect a proposal tomorrow to both fix the cars and settle with the customers. 

He also said that the Judge does not have to accept it, but that he would explain in detail what is proposed from VW and offer his opinion. 

It should get interesting tomorrow, but finally something might be coming to light of the situation.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

aj4066 said:


> Got a little video update from the class-action that I am in and they fully expect a proposal tomorrow to both fix the cars and settle with the customers.
> 
> He also said that the Judge does not have to accept it, but that he would explain in detail what is proposed from VW and offer his opinion.
> 
> It should get interesting tomorrow, but finally something might be coming to light of the situation.


If i read this correctly, you dont have to be in a class action to get these options, its just for everyone, correct?


----------



## liquidonline (Jun 24, 2002)

aj4066 said:


> Got a little video update from the class-action that I am in and *they fully expect a proposal tomorrow* to both fix the cars and settle with the customers.
> 
> He also said that the Judge does not have to accept it, but that he would explain in detail what is proposed from VW and offer his opinion.
> 
> *It should get interesting tomorrow, but finally something might be coming to light of the situation*.


(Emphasis: mine)


Or maybe not:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-23/vw-said-to-risk-missing-u-s-court-deadline-for-diesel-accord



> Volkswagen AG will probably miss a Thursday court deadline to reach a comprehensive agreement with U.S. authorities over its tainted diesel engines, possibly exposing the carmaker to daily fines and other sanctions.
> While talks have intensified in recent days, Volkswagen and U.S. officials have yet to reach final terms for fixes and compensation related to the manufacturer’s cheating on diesel pollution tests, according to people familiar with the negotiations, who asked not to be named because the discussions are private. U.S. regulators want assurances that the repairs will last, as well as the option for owners to sell the cars back to Volkswagen. Deliberations are continuing, and a last-minute deal could still be reached.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

liquidonline said:


> (Emphasis: mine)
> 
> 
> Or maybe not:
> ...


Who really knows. Just passing along info. 

opcorn:


----------



## tyler.derosagrund (May 24, 2015)

Honestly, I like my Passat TDI. Its probably the nicest car I've had and I'm hoping they dont buy back the cars. If they impose a "fix" doesnt really bother me because I am going to buy a rawtek kit anyway. There isnt emissions testing in Texas for passenger vehicles so really not a big deal to me. If they want to give me money on top I'm all for that too


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

tyler.derosagrund said:


> Honestly, I like my Passat TDI. Its probably the nicest car I've had and I'm hoping they dont buy back the cars. If they impose a "fix" doesnt really bother me because I am going to buy a rawtek kit anyway. There isnt emissions testing in Texas for passenger vehicles so really not a big deal to me. If they want to give me money on top I'm all for that too


I'm in the same spot....no emissions testing for me so I'm planning to install a Rawtek exhaust kit.


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

tyler.derosagrund said:


> If they impose a "fix" doesnt really bother me because I am going to buy a rawtek kit anyway. There isnt emissions testing in Texas for passenger vehicles so really not a big deal to me.


Umm...
Texas most definitely has emissions testing for passenger vehicles.


----------



## WRXGuy (Feb 20, 2002)

NeverEnoughCars said:


> Umm...
> Texas most definitely has emissions testing for passenger vehicles.


*Its only in certain Cities/Counties in Texas.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

WRXGuy said:


> *Its only in certain Cities/Counties in Texas.


Yeah- some large metropolitan areas have their own vehicle tests that are not "State required".


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

WRXGuy said:


> *Its only in certain Cities/Counties in Texas.


I know that, but he stated that Texas does not do emissions testing which is flat out wrong.


----------



## tyler.derosagrund (May 24, 2015)

NeverEnoughCars said:


> I know that, but he stated that Texas does not do emissions testing which is flat out wrong.


Sorry man, let me reword my last statement. Texas does do emissions testing on gasoline-powered vehicles. Diesel-powered vehicles are exempt.

http://www.dmv.org/tx-texas/smog-check.php

Inspection Exemptions

No vehicles in Texas are exempt from safety inspections.

The following vehicles are exempt from emissions testing:

Vehicles under 2 years old.
Vehicles older than 24 years old.
Diesel-powered vehicles.


----------



## tyler.derosagrund (May 24, 2015)

Also if dmv.org doesnt work for you here is the link from the Texas DPS:


http://dps.texas.gov/RSD/VI/inspection/inspectionCriteria.aspx


Which vehicles are required to have the emissions test?

Vehicles registered in designated counties. Designated counties include: Brazoria, Fort Bend, Galveston, Harris, Montgomery, Collin, Dallas, Denton, Ellis, Johnson, Kaufman, Parker, Rockwall, Tarrant, Travis, Williamson and El Paso counties.
Gasoline powered vehicles. Diesel powered vehicles and motorcycles are exempt from emissions testing, but are still required to have the annual safety inspection.
Vehicles 2 through 24 years old OR upon expiration of the two-year initial inspection sticker.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

This may have been answered already, but what happens to the unsalable 2016 TDIs sitting in port?
The model year may pass before the fix is in.
Does VW convert them to gas models?
Do they scrap them?
Send them back to Mexico?


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Lwize said:


> Send them back to Mexico?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Lwize said:


> This may have been answered already, but what happens to the unsalable 2016 TDIs sitting in port?
> The model year may pass before the fix is in.
> Does VW convert them to gas models?
> Do they scrap them?
> Send them back to Mexico?


Mitsubishi is still selling new 2015's. Considering this whole deal is in negotiations right now with tens of billions of dollars at stake, I'm sure VW could ask for things like "Hey, can we still sell those cars we have on hold?" as part of the negotiations. It's the US government they're negotiating with, which means all options are on the table. I honestly don't believe the gov't wants to put VW out of business, as you can't make a dead man pay back his debts. There will have to be concessions on both sides. VW needs to pay for their crimes (the most serious of which are the allegations of data destruction, really: that's obstruction of justice) but in order to actually make the world a better place, VW still needs to be in business and both building and selling cars in America. No way can the DoJ get that $46 billion headline number.

If anything, I'd expect the civil matter may be resolved soon but the criminal case or cases could take years. Of everything VW has done, none is more serious than the charge that they were intentionally deleting data pertaining to the civil crimes right up through and even days _after_ the DoJ ordered a legal hold on their records. If I wanted to make an example of VW, I might push for $1-2 billion in penalties for the cheating, but $10 billion for the obstruction of justice and 10+ year jail sentences for their CIO and whoever carried out the data destruction orders the CIO gave.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Also, I read the court transcript from last month's hearing, and judge Breyer made it abundantly clear that he understood that he had no influence on the VW/EPA negotiations, and that he didn't require that VW has an answer regarding the EPA-approved repair/retrofit. He explicitly said that he expects them to have made some progress and that he wants a report on where things stand and what VW plans to do for the affected owners. Tomorrow should at least give some insight on the way things are going. Going on 6 months in an information vacuum, this comes as some relief for me.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Lwize said:


> This may have been answered already, but what happens to the unsalable 2016 TDIs sitting in port?
> The model year may pass before the fix is in.
> Does VW convert them to gas models?
> Do they scrap them?
> Send them back to Mexico?


IF there is an EPA/CARB approved technical fix, they'll be fixed and sold. If they end up being non-current-model-year vehicles as a result ... so be it.

Powertrain swaps are too expensive. If it comes to that, it's cheaper for VW to just make another car than it would be for them to go through a special process to do powertrain swaps ... and then only being able to sell the car at a reduced price because of what it went through.

If there is no EPA/CARB approved fix then it will be illegal for them to sell them in the USA and by extension (more-or-less same emission standards), in Canada. If they want to sell them elsewhere in the world, it would either have to be someplace that has the steering wheel on the left, and which accepts US safety standards (can't be Europe), and accepts the old English units on the instruments (not too many of those! the rest of the world speaks metric; the models destined for Canada won't have this particular issue) ... or they would be swapping parts to make them compliant with local standards and expectations, which is expensive. There is a high probability that if there is no EPA/CARB approved fix, those cars are all going to be scrunched up into little cubes.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

GoFaster said:


> If there is no EPA/CARB approved fix then it will be illegal for them to sell them in the USA and by extension (more-or-less same emission standards), in Canada. If they want to sell them elsewhere in the world, it would either have to be someplace that has the steering wheel on the left, and which accepts US safety standards (can't be Europe), and accepts the old English units on the instruments (not too many of those! the rest of the world speaks metric; the models destined for Canada won't have this particular issue) ... or they would be swapping parts to make them compliant with local standards and expectations, which is expensive. There is a high probability that if there is no EPA/CARB approved fix, those cars are all going to be scrunched up into little cubes.


It may surprise you to learn that in general, much of Latin and South America happily use US-market cars whenever they can get their hands on them. Worst case, VW could basically sell them just about anywhere in the Americas and probably anywhere in Africa and the middle-east, for that matter. It would just come down to price. They certainly would not need to crush them, however.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW likely to miss U.S. court deadline for diesel accord*





> March 24, 2016 09:36 CET
> 
> Volkswagen Group will probably miss a court deadline today to reach an agreement with U.S. authorities over its rigged diesel engines, possibly exposing the automaker to daily fines and other sanctions.
> 
> ...


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

At this point I'm more fed up with VW dragging their feet than I am about the original cheating. This is beyond ridiculous. I'd say give them 14 more days to decide what to do, but I'd like the government to get some cojones and put a rider on it saying, in effect, 'if you don't come back with a solution this time, _we_ decide and no negotiations.'


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Automotive News Europe said:


> VW *and regulators* are likely to tell Breyer they are making good progress toward reaching a deal, but have not reached an agreement,


Man I hate being wrong as usual


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

spockcat said:


> *VW likely to miss U.S. court deadline for diesel accord*


Not that surprising after reading http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/filelibrary/1709/Consolidated_Consumer_Class_Action_Complaint.pdf. Pretty much sums everything up, but it's very long.

The Federal counts against them are for RICO, including BOSCH as a Defendant (including mail & wire fraud for sending certification letters to CARB & EPA requesting certification knowing full well they didn't comply) and violation of Mangusson-Moss, plus common law counts of Fraud, Breach of Contract, and Unjust Enrichment, and then every state has its own laws that were violated.

and, of course, the longer they wait to settle the more the cars will be driven, and the odometers can be used to calculate how much excess NOx have been emitted since the vehicles were sold, so damages could be calculated based on total miles driven on the cars.

Michael Horn is also one of the named RICO defendants, which may be why he was forced out, even though Alan Brown didn't think he was involved with the cheat devices. But the Feds don't care, Horn was at the helm when it came down, so it was on his watch.

I was hoping that the 2015 TDI with the SCR would be an easy fix, but I guess it had a defeat device to use less urea in between oil changes because the DEF tanks were just too small to accommodate all that was really needed. So we'll just have to refill with DEF every 4000 to 5000 miles instead of the regular oil change intervals of 10,000.

Hmm, as much as I'm not fully fond of it just yet, the RAM HFE is looking better at the moment . . . .


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

zhenya00 said:


> At this point I'm more fed up with VW dragging their feet than I am about the original cheating. This is beyond ridiculous. I'd say give them 14 more days to decide what to do, but I'd like the government to get some cojones and put a rider on it saying, in effect, 'if you don't come back with a solution this time, _we_ decide and no negotiations.'


^ ditto. Id like to know how to plan accordingly moving forward.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

spockcat said:


> VW likely to miss U.S. court deadline for diesel accord


Still no diesel Accord? Man, Honda needs to get on that... The market is _open_! 




:laugh:




Silly_me said:


> Man I hate being wrong as usual


"Wrong as usual" or "When I'm wrong I hate it?" There's quite a difference.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Here's how I think it's going to go down. VW is going to say they they can't come up with a proper fix due to packing and or reliability concerns on the non SCR models. They will agree to a partial fix (much fancier catalyst and maybe a mild ECU tweak) and repair the cars. In lieu of fully fixing the cars they will either have to buy some pollution credits and or agree to make X number of hybrid/electric vehicles in the next Y years. Some sort of "settlement" will be offered to the owners either $$$ and or increased warranty due to the change in parts.

They will pay a bunch of fines for the Fraud and deception and be on their merry way.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

PolishSasquatch said:


> ^ ditto. Id like to know how to plan accordingly moving forward.


Make 3 plans and execute the one that you and VW are happiest with. What's going to happen is either:

1) VW fixes the cars and may add some monetary compensation to you for the Federal counts, and common law counts, plus the three State of Michigan counts, or
2) VW takes the keys from your old car and hands you the keys to a new car, or
3) VW takes the keys from your old car and hands you a wad of cash for some amount, either market value to full purchase price or somewhere in between.

OK, OK, so #2 is unlikely, but you never know. But if you plan for any of the above, your bases will pretty much be covered.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Air and water do mix said:


> "Wrong as usual" or "When I'm wrong I hate it?" There's quite a difference.


Oh, I didn't mean to type that, I meant to post this instead:










:laugh:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

I posted this quite a ways back, but REGULATORS are forcing an "ALL OF NOTHING" approach to this mess.

VW is looking at every angle and what the repercussions are going to be. we have americans trying to force germans into something they don't agree with. this is going to be a long, protracted and strategic discussion, making sure to lock down ANY and ALL costs VW will have to pay as a result (I'm talking about costs related to repairs or buyback as WELL AS FINES AND LITIGATION).

VW will NOT agree to anything until they know the overall total costs. I'm sure they are looking to have a cap place on ALL civil and criminal fines, as well as negotiate all payouts.

they have BILLIONS in cash reserves, and TIME on their hands. They have talked about leaving the US market (again I called this months ago, but was rebuffed)


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

Interesting to hear that there will potentially be options for some owners. Possibly being able to choose between a buyback or a "fix" with a financial incentive would be nice.


----------



## tyler.derosagrund (May 24, 2015)

I wonder how this applies to people who bought their cars after September. Do they fall under the same guidelines or are they screwed out of everything?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tyler.derosagrund (May 24, 2015)

Lets see if this is true or not:

https://twitter.com/AstridDoerner/status/713020479326588928

Waiting for the rest of the stories to come in.


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

tyler.derosagrund said:


> I wonder how this applies to people who bought their cars after September. Do they fall under the same guidelines or are they screwed out of everything?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There can't bee too many people in that boat in the grand scheme of things. They would likely get included if the technical options dictate.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

^can't pull up twitter at work, what does it say?


----------



## tyler.derosagrund (May 24, 2015)

JitteryJoe said:


> ^can't pull up twitter at work, what does it say?


Sorry!!!

Judge gives #VW new deadline. need to preset detailed plan how to fix cars or get them off the road by April 21. More soon on #handelsblatt


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

tyler.derosagrund said:


> Judge gives #VW new deadline. need to preset detailed plan how to fix cars or get them off the road by April 21. More soon on #handelsblatt


nevermind


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

tyler.derosagrund said:


> Sorry!!!
> 
> Judge gives #VW new deadline. need to preset detailed plan how to fix cars or get them off the road by April 21. More soon on #handelsblatt


duh.

both parties tell the judge they are actively working towards a resolution. how can the judge be heavy handed toward the defendant at this point???? he can't.

if any of those who posted "judge hulk smash VW for not meeting his deadline!" really understood how the courts work, they'd stop posting stupid sh!t.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

tyler.derosagrund said:


> Sorry!!!
> 
> Judge gives #VW new deadline. need to preset detailed plan how to fix cars or get them off the road by April 21. More soon on #handelsblatt


The whole internet doesn't work like Twitter.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

tyler.derosagrund said:


> Sorry!!!
> 
> Judge gives #VW new deadline. need to preset detailed plan how to fix cars or get them off the road by April 21. More soon on #handelsblatt


So basically how my foster child's adoption case is going: Mom wants to sign rights away, we want to adopt; delay, new court date, delay, new court date, rinse and repeat :banghead::banghead::banghead:


----------



## dirtyfingers (Apr 29, 2007)

What's the probability that VW is still weighing in on pulling out of the US?


----------



## tacticalbeaver (Apr 27, 2006)

So were they just kidding when the March 24 deadline was set? Or was that one for something else?

Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

dirtyfingers said:


> What's the probability that VW is still weighing in on pulling out of the US?


Doing so still doesn't shield them from criminal charges down the road, as the US has normalized relations with Germany. It's in both VW and Germany's best interest that VW executives continue to negotiate and not attempt to run back home to Germany and start denying extradition orders or court ordered payment.

EDIT: Also, here it is from a non-Twitter source:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...-emission-scandal-fix-court-hearing/82208076/



USA Today said:


> German automaker Volkswagen Group did not present a fix for vehicles involved in its emissions scandal at a short court hearing Thursday in California but reported substantial progress in discussions with regulators.
> 
> U.S. District Court Judge Charles Breyer had set March 24 as something of an informal deadline for the company to reach a solution, but *on Thursday he expressed satisfaction with progress the company has made and set another hearing for April 21 to get further updates*, Volkswagen spokeswoman Jeannine Ginivan said in a phone interview.
> 
> ...


----------



## zr0z (Sep 1, 2013)

seftonm said:


> So were they just kidding when the March 24 deadline was set? Or was that one for something else?
> 
> Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk



They were just kidding apparently. I was excited to hear the results too.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> Doing so still doesn't shield them from criminal charges down the road, as the US has normalized relations with Germany. It's in both VW and Germany's best interest that VW executives continue to negotiate and not attempt to run back home to Germany and start denying extradition orders or settlement payment orders.
> 
> EDIT: Also, here it is from a non-Twitter source:
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...-emission-scandal-fix-court-hearing/82208076/


I'm will be bet a months wages, not one person will be charged criminally in this case. not in the usa


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

Vicelord said:


> The whole internet doesn't work like Twitter.


Of all the posters to get all old-man pissy about a post. :facepalm: #snappin'necks


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

The longer VW waits, the more money this will cost them. Are they trying to go bankrupt? Or is this just the usual VW incompetence?


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

http://www.wsj.com/articles/judge-extends-deadline-for-vw-diesel-engine-fix-proposal-1458834493


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

You'reDrunk said:


> I'm will be bet a months wages, not one person will be charged criminally in this case. not in the usa


I'm with you in that the initial fine will be small. As far as criminal charges, the only one I see that could be a nightmare for them is if it's true that they violated the legal hold and proceeded with data deletions knowing full well they were destroying evidence in an ongoing investigation. That's straight up obstruction of justice. If it's true, their CIO needs to go to jail for that.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

You'reDrunk said:


> http://www.wsj.com/articles/judge-extends-deadline-for-vw-diesel-engine-fix-proposal-1458834493


Lol, picture of VW workers "working around the clock" on the problem:


----------



## dirtyfingers (Apr 29, 2007)

AZGolf said:


> As far as criminal charges, the only one I see that could be a nightmare for them is if it's true that they violated the legal hold and proceeded with data deletions knowing full well they were destroying evidence in an ongoing investigation. That's straight up obstruction of justice. If it's true, their CIO needs to go to jail for that.


Maybe they can get in touch with Hillary Clinton's legal team.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> I'm with you in that the initial fine will be small. As far as criminal charges, the only one I see that could be a nightmare for them is if it's true that they violated the legal hold and proceeded with data deletions knowing full well they were destroying evidence in an ongoing investigation. That's straight up obstruction of justice. If it's true, their CIO needs to go to jail for that.


when I worked at the county hospital, we had a similar incident in a trial, where staff destroyed electronic data, almost 1 year and a half into the trial....discovery destroyed. 

not one person was charged for obstruction.....reasonable doubt as to who/why the data was destroyed. unless they find a smoking gun, and I doubt they will, it just won't happen.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

GoHomePossum said:


> Lol, picture of VW workers "working around the clock" on the problem:


cant be a real photo - i dont see anyone in that picture updating their resume or looking for other work.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

You'reDrunk said:


> when I worked at the county hospital, we had a similar incident in a trial, where staff destroyed electronic data, almost 1 year and a half into the trial....discovery destroyed.
> 
> not one person was charged for obstruction.....reasonable doubt as to who/why the data was destroyed. unless they find a smoking gun, and I doubt they will, it just won't happen.


See that couldn't even happen at my company unless ordered by the CIO. There is keystroke and event logging for every server and every application. If somebody logs into a server and deletes the primary copy, it's logged as far as exactly what user did it, when, and with what command (which helps establish accident vs intentional). If the _secondary_ copy is then deleted, it would be in the application logs. BTW all logs are kept off-site from the actual servers, so you can't delete data then delete the logs. Totally separate teams from different parts of the org tree manage them. Only the CIO would be high enough in the org chart to oversee all 3 teams: primary servers, backup data, and audit logging. Hence why I said the CIO is responsible.

Still, VW could plead that they are simply a badly run company and accidentally lost the data, the backups, and failed to have any audit logs due to being a badly run company. I don't doubt that many companies get off on the grounds of being too incompetent to stand trial. Since VW is not a finance or healthcare company, they probably don't have the same audit requirements and data retention as the companies I've worked with. Again, they get to plead that they're just a dumb automaker and don't know nothin' about dem 'puters. The data just up and vanished!

We'll see though. They are being sued by one of their own (former) employees who is on legal record as saying it was not an accident or incompetence, it was very much an intentional cover-up.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> See that couldn't even happen at my company unless ordered by the CIO. There is keystroke and event logging for every server and every application. If somebody logs into a server and deletes the primary copy, it's logged as far as exactly what user did it, when, and with what command (which helps establish accident vs intentional). If the _secondary_ copy is then deleted, it would be in the application logs. BTW all logs are kept off-site from the actual servers, so you can't delete data then delete the logs. Totally separate teams from different parts of the org tree manage them. Only the CIO would be high enough in the org chart to oversee all 3 teams: primary servers, backup data, and audit logging. Hence why I said the CIO is responsible.
> 
> Still, VW could plead that they are simply a badly run company and accidentally lost the data, the backups, and failed to have any audit logs due to being a badly run company. I don't doubt that many companies get off on the grounds of being too incompetent to stand trial. Since VW is not a finance or healthcare company, they probably don't have the same audit requirements and data retention as the companies I've worked with. Again, they get to plead that they're just a dumb automaker and don't know nothin' about dem 'puters. The data just up and vanished!
> 
> We'll see though. They are being sued by one of their own (former) employees who is on legal record as saying it was not an accident or incompetence, it was very much an intentional cover-up.


and as great as this is......

many companies are aware of this type of controls, but refuse to use them (not legally required even under Sarbanes/Oxley) and thus create the opportunity for plausible deniability, or at least not leave an auditable trail for legal to use later.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

....and April 21, they get an extension because they are working on something. 


opcorn:


----------



## theonlyrobertson (Oct 22, 2009)

*I've run out of patience with these clowns... time to bring down the hammer!*

As far as I'm concerned, VW has used up all of any good will they may have garnered with any good-will gestures. They continue to delay and negotiate while owners are left to sit and wait for an outcome with cars that have lost significant value. We can't sell or trade them. We worry about getting into accident and insurance companies paying out less. We hear media reports about potential buy-backs but nothing substantial from VW. It's time for them to put forth a solution or buy them back. They've had plenty of time (much more than the six months from the public admission) to put forth a resolution. This extension is just another kick of sand in the face of their customers. I say it's time the justice department brings down the hammer!


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> ....and April 21, they get an extension because they are working on something.


Exactly. What a ****ing joke. I don't give a damn if VW can't reach an agreement with the EPA/CARB. Give owners the option to bail NOW - order a VW buyback - with the option of holding onto the car if they want to wait for a fix that sounds like it may never come. I'm tired of this crap, I wanted to get rid of the car months ago and was hoping I could move on with my life soon. Instead, I get another month delay. Enough is enough.


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

soooo I should go ahead and use my goodwill cards to get the timing belt replaced? I'm currently 5,000 miles overdue....


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

benjaminobscene said:


> soooo I should go ahead and use my goodwill cards to get the timing belt replaced? I'm currently 5,000 miles overdue....


Your goodwill cards are free money and your vehicle needs maintenance. Sorta a no-brainer to me. I've ridden the line of out of maintenance items and have had them fail on me (timing belt to be exact) and it cost me a lot more than the hundred bucks and a day of labor to fix. That free towing though...that has some value  

In April, *IF* VW has a plan, the plan probably won't start April 21st. It will probably start April 21st of 2016 at the rate they are going. 

BUT...it does sound pretty promising that a buyback is going to happen. As someone else has mentioned, they've been trying to fix this a lot longer than the public has known about it.


----------



## csr67 (Oct 24, 2003)

benjaminobscene said:


> soooo I should go ahead and use my goodwill cards to get the timing belt replaced? I'm currently 5,000 miles overdue....


I spent my $500 visa card asap (bought a nice Ruger .357, thanks VW!  ) and I plan to use the $500 service card as fast as I can as well. This cluster F*ck has gone on far too long. I'm in CA, so I'm leaning towards VW having to buy back my Touareg unless they come up with a miracle cure that will satisfy CARB.


----------



## pasateando (Mar 19, 2002)

I had not stepped into a VW dealership for over a year until this morning, took the passat for an oil change, I asked the service advisor how they are doing and he told me they were waiting on VW's answer today.
I waited for my car during the oil change, just another customer showed up during that time, seems like they are hurting big time, feel bad for the dealerships...


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

theonlyrobertson said:


> We can't sell or trade them.


Says who?? The only people who can't sell/buy these vehicles are the VW dealers. Private party and non-VW dealers can still easily buy/sell.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Uberhare said:


> Says who?? The only people who can't sell/buy these vehicles are the VW dealers. Private party and non-VW dealers can still easily buy/sell.


thank you.


yes you can sell, trade you car anywhere but a VW dealership. if you need out, get out. if you feel you have a loss, document it and save the info for when the class action moves forward.....good luck.


----------



## theonlyrobertson (Oct 22, 2009)

You'reDrunk said:


> thank you.
> 
> 
> yes you can sell, trade you car anywhere but a VW dealership. if you need out, get out. if you feel you have a loss, document it and save the info for when the class action moves forward.....good luck.


Only if you want to take a bath on the trade or sell value. And with the rumors of buybacks why would you? Owners are being held hostage in a manner of speaking.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

theonlyrobertson said:


> Only if you want to take a bath on the trade or sell value. And with the rumors of buybacks why would you? Owners are being held hostage in a manner of speaking.


did you READ what I posted????

obviously not.

any damages you feel you incur can be dealt with during the class action. you have a choice, you're NOT being held hostage. :facepalm:


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

aj4066 said:


> BUT...it does sound pretty promising that a buyback is going to happen. As someone else has mentioned, they've been trying to fix this a lot longer than the public has known about it.


This, the EU had a fix much sooner after it was discovered that those cars had the defeat device also, almost as if they had it ready (as has been stated before they had at least a good years notice when the EPA informed them of "irregularities" in the real world testing of their diesels). But with the stricter US regs on NOX the simply can't meet them without SCR and it's likely much too costly to retrofit.



You'reDrunk said:


> did you READ what I posted????
> 
> obviously not.
> 
> any damages you feel you incur can be dealt with during the class action. you have a choice, you're NOT being held hostage. :facepalm:


Some people people don't want to take the chance of taking that loss and then waiting a long time for reimbursement that may or may not be the same as their loss after the lawyers get their share. You are right that they aren't being held hostage but it's less risky to keep and drive the car until a solution is known.


----------



## theonlyrobertson (Oct 22, 2009)

*I read it...*



You'reDrunk said:


> did you READ what I posted????
> 
> obviously not.
> 
> any damages you feel you incur can be dealt with during the class action. you have a choice, you're NOT being held hostage. :facepalm:


Yes I read it, but my reply was to the post before and I didn't feel like editing it. Any the key part of your reply is GOOD LUCK! It would be an additional hassle to have to sue for that difference which I'm sure most would prefer to avoid.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

theonlyrobertson said:


> Yes I read it, but my reply was to the post before and I didn't feel like editing it. Any the key part of your reply is GOOD LUCK! It would be an additional hassle to have to sue for that difference which I'm sure most would prefer to avoid.


then where is your damage???

the car is more than drivable, it's not like people drop dead driving it......keep it, sell it whatever.

too many people crying over this mess, which isn't that big of a mess in the 1st place. these cars are emitting like a car from the 1990s....not 1901. 

VW pays a fine, the cars drive on until they are retired, monies are put into cleaner technology......


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

You'reDrunk said:


> too many people crying over this mess, which isn't that big of a mess in the 1st place. these cars are emitting like a car from the 1990s....not 1901.
> 
> VW pays a fine, the cars drive on until they are retired, monies are put into cleaner technology......


Just like Watergate, the news here isn't the crime, it's the coverup. VW has been running a massive world-wide coverup since 2009 and may have doubled down on the coverup by deleting all their records before the admission and possibly even for several days after the admission. It's not so much the emissions that are the issue here, it's the lying and coverup that make this a big deal. Even you yourself have said that nobody will ever be charged or go to jail for this. What does that say about the rule of law when clearly laws don't apply as long as you've got the money to avoid the consequences? IMO, this points to one of the multiple flaws in people who believe society can be based on laws above all else.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> Just like Watergate, the news here isn't the crime, it's the coverup. VW has been running a massive world-wide coverup since 2009 and may have doubled down on the coverup by deleting all their records before the admission and possibly even for several days after the admission. It's not so much the emissions that are the issue here, it's the lying and coverup that make this a big deal. Even you yourself have said that nobody will ever be charged or go to jail for this. What does that say about the rule of law when clearly laws don't apply as long as you've got the money to avoid the consequences? IMO, this points to one of the multiple flaws in people who believe society can be based on laws above all else.


This never happens in big business


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

theonlyrobertson said:


> Only if you want to take a bath on the trade or sell value. And with the rumors of buybacks why would you? Owners are being held hostage in a manner of speaking.


With everyone so eager to 'get out' or do the buyback, one wonders how much the cars will be worth 5 to 10 years from now once everything blows over because the remaining ones will be so rare . . . .


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

T5 Dave said:


> With everyone so eager to 'get out' or do the buyback, one wonders how much the cars will be worth 5 to 10 years from now once everything blows over because the remaining ones will be so rare . . . .


I was looking at getting an 08 Evo X, but it turned out to have issues/bank wanted way too much down (it was almost worth it, though). 

They ended up selling it to someone else for $23k. Those things were $30k new. Give it a few years, and they might appreciate in value, too.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

GoHomeBroke said:


> I was looking at getting an 08 Evo X, but it turned out to have issues/bank wanted way too much down (it was almost worth it, though).
> 
> They ended up selling it to someone else for $23k. Those things were $30k new. Give it a few years, and they might appreciate in value, too.


The Evo is an iconic, high performance sports sedan with WRC pedigree. The 2.0 TDIs are economy cars designed to be boring, slow, and dirty understeering pigs. The 3.0 TDIs are attached to expensive German cars that will cost a small fortune to maintain as when they get old. I'm not sure scandal-era TDIs will be popular except among, well, the kind of people that own 1980's VW diesels today, for example. The words boring, slow, and dirty come to mind again.


----------



## theonlyrobertson (Oct 22, 2009)

*Damage = lost value*



You'reDrunk said:


> then where is your damage???
> 
> the car is more than drivable, it's not like people drop dead driving it......keep it, sell it whatever.
> 
> ...



I'm not crying at all. It's is one of the best driving cars I've owned. But the fact is, it has depreciated significantly over this debacle and unless they fix it or buy it back, I will be one taking that hit.

The fines are a penalty which is not related to the depreciation I experience if I sell it.


----------



## theonlyrobertson (Oct 22, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> The Evo is an iconic, high performance sports sedan with WRC pedigree. The 2.0 TDIs are economy cars designed to be boring, slow, and dirty understeering pigs. The 3.0 TDIs are attached to expensive German cars that will cost a small fortune to maintain as when they get old. I'm not sure scandal-era TDIs will be popular except among, well, the kind of people that own 1980's VW diesels today, for example. The words boring, slow, and dirty come to mind again.


I will take exception to boring, slow and dirty. Maybe a NA Rabbit from the 70's but I find this set-up is a great driving and handling car. Slow is relative and off the line, the torque delivered is more than adequate and is only shy by 70lbs-ft and available at 1700 RPM vs 4000.


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

Hey all,

Just giving some info from north of the border. I see a lot of people posting about major problems with the value of their cars since this news broke. I recently picked up a new 'dub and gave my dealership the chance to trade my '13 tdi. It's a jetta, comfortline... which is the package that has alloys/sunroof/cruise/heated seats but not really much else. The car has about 100k on it. Anyways, The offer I got was just fine for the trade, right in line with what I would have expected without the scandal. I know things must be different south of the border, but up here it's more or less business as usual right now. Factor in the credit package and the 2K TDI owners can get off of a new VW, and its actually decent.

Not looking to incite a riot, just giving info from my own experience.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

phospher5 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Just giving some info from north of the border. I see a lot of people posting about major problems with the value of their cars since this news broke. I recently picked up a new 'dub and gave my dealership the chance to trade my '13 tdi. It's a jetta, comfortline... which is the package that has alloys/sunroof/cruise/heated seats but not really much else. The car has about 100k on it. Anyways, The offer I got was just fine for the trade, right in line with what I would have expected without the scandal. I know things must be different south of the border, but up here it's more or less business as usual right now. Factor in the credit package and the 2K TDI owners can get off of a new VW, and its actually decent.
> 
> Not looking to incite a riot, just giving info from my own experience.


Now we know where the cars will go in the event of a buyback . . .


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

T5 Dave said:


> Now we know where the cars will go in the event of a buyback . . .


I see the probelm, you need to filter his post through the _Silly_me Canuck to Murrican translator bot_

Ok, just a minute...... here we go...... that should do it!



phospher5 said:


> Hey all,





phospher5 translated into Murrican said:


> Sup.





phospher5 said:


> Just giving some info from north of the border.





phospher5 translated into Murrican said:


> Once again, Canada has to speak sense for the continent at large.





phospher5 said:


> I see a lot of people posting about major problems with the value of their cars since this news broke.





phospher5 translated into Murrican said:


> You whiny self-entitled wussies





phospher5 said:


> I recently picked up a new 'dub and gave my dealership the chance to trade my '13 tdi. It's a jetta, comfortline...





phospher5 translated into Murrican said:


> I bought a new VW, and let the dealer take my Jetta diesel in on trade because they are starving now and I made a good deal at their desperation.





phospher5 said:


> which is the package that has alloys/sunroof/cruise/heated seats but not really much else.





phospher5 translated into Murrican said:


> It's a VW, don't get options that'll break and just piss you off.





phospher5 said:


> Anyways, The offer I got was just fine for the trade, right in line with what I would have expected without the scandal.





phospher5 translated into Murrican said:


> Guess what, cars depreciate. I wear big boy pants and have learned to accept the inevitable.





phospher5 said:


> I know things must be different south of the border,





phospher5 translated into Murrican said:


> God you bunch of whiny bishes with your hat in your hands waiting on someone to bail you out of the car you bought on your own free will,





phospher5 said:


> but up here it's more or less business as usual right now.





phospher5 translated into Murrican said:


> F-you! Grow a pair like us!





phospher5 said:


> Factor in the credit package and the 2K TDI owners can get off of a new VW, and its actually decent.





phospher5 translated into Murrican said:


> I know you'll never buy another VW because of your Superior morality, but bite it, I made out like a bandit.





phospher5 said:


> Not looking to incite a riot, just giving info from my own experience.





phospher5 translated into Murrican said:


> Sit and spin, I'm sure you all will go on and on aboot this crap


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> I see the probelm, you need to filter his post through the _Silly_me Canuck to Murrican translator bot_
> 
> Ok, just a minute...... here we go...... that should do it!


I think I"m missing something . . . . .


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

theonlyrobertson said:


> I will take exception to boring, slow and dirty.


I deal in hyperbole. I said what I did as a way of making an example about how vastly different the Lancer Evolution is from a Golf/Jetta TDI.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> I see the probelm, you need to filter his post through the _Silly_me Canuck to Murrican translator bot_
> 
> Ok, just a minute...... here we go...... that should do it!


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

Silly_me, that was a good laugh!!eace:


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

You'reDrunk said:


>


And then some!!


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*U.S. judge sets April 21 deadline for VW, EPA to reach diesel fix*



> UPDATED: 3/24/16 5:40 pm ET - adds details
> 
> (Reuters) -- A U.S. judge today gave Volkswagen AG and U.S. regulators until April 21 to reach a diesel emissions fix covering about 600,000 vehicles following the automaker's massive emissions cheating scandal.
> 
> ...


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

You'reDrunk said:


> then where is your damage???
> 
> the car is more than drivable, it's not like people drop dead driving it......keep it, sell it whatever.
> 
> ...



The car is drivable, sure, but not sellable. I've tried. 3 dealerships wouldn't trade it in and all offers were way, way to low. Selling it is a fine idea if you want to take a loss that shouldn't be there. If not for VW's fraud I wouldn't likely be in the vehicle these past 6 months.




phospher5 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Just giving some info from north of the border. I see a lot of people posting about major problems with the value of their cars since this news broke. I recently picked up a new 'dub and gave my dealership the chance to trade my '13 tdi. It's a jetta, comfortline... which is the package that has alloys/sunroof/cruise/heated seats but not really much else. The car has about 100k on it. Anyways, The offer I got was just fine for the trade, right in line with what I would have expected without the scandal. I know things must be different south of the border, but up here it's more or less business as usual right now. Factor in the credit package and the 2K TDI owners can get off of a new VW, and its actually decent.
> 
> Not looking to incite a riot, just giving info from my own experience.


That's great at that dealership, and if VW had a vehicles useful to you. VW has nothing I'm interested in and I can't unload the car for what it SHOULD be worth - and so I sit here 6 months later with likely another month to go...


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

You'reDrunk said:


> did you READ what I posted????
> 
> obviously not.
> 
> any damages you feel you incur can be dealt with during the class action. you have a choice, you're NOT being held hostage. :facepalm:


Yup. :thumbup:

There are people out there (like me) who are actively looking to buy/sell/trade TDI vehicles. If you want to sell/trade your TDI you should do a little research and market your vehicle in parts of the country or state that are exempt from emissions testing requirements. Those are the people still buying/selling/trading these cars.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Uberhare said:


> Yup. :thumbup:
> 
> There are people out there (like me) who are actively looking to buy/sell/trade TDI vehicles. If you want to sell/trade your TDI you should do a little research and market your vehicle in parts of the country or state that are exempt from emissions testing requirements. Those are the people still buying/selling/trading these cars.


Will you give me the pre-september value? No? Oh, that's right, you've bragged about how cheaply you picked yours up in this very thread. 

I get that cars depreciate. They typically don't magically have several thousand dollars of their value disappear overnight. That's what happened here, and why myself and other owners are upset. How can you (and others) not understand that?


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

theonlyrobertson said:


> *As far as I'm concerned, VW has used up all of any good will they may have garnered with any good-will gestures. They continue to delay and negotiate while owners are left to sit and wait for an outcome with cars that have lost significant value.* We can't sell or trade them. We worry about getting into accident and insurance companies paying out less. We hear media reports about potential buy-backs but nothing substantial from VW. It's time for them to put forth a solution or buy them back. They've had plenty of time (much more than the six months from the public admission) to put forth a resolution. This extension is just another kick of sand in the face of their customers. I say it's time the justice department brings down the hammer!


In bold is how I feel. Only thing that would make me feel better is a new certified tdi or a buyback for FMV + 20%. Other than that, I'll never buy a VW again.

Honestly, for me its not about emissions, its the fact that VW lied. Kinda of like the Ford Cobra from the 90's not making the stated HP, or Hyundai not getting 40mpg. The cars were advertised to one thing, but they did another. VW needs to be punished and customer heavily compensated as a big "we so sorry, we won't do it again", please buy one of our cars again in the future" but the longer they wait the less likely that is to happen.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

AJB said:


> In bold is how I feel. Only thing that would make me feel better is a new certified tdi or a buyback for FMV + 20%. Other than that, I'll never buy a VW again.
> 
> Honestly, for me its not about emissions, its the fact that VW lied. Kinda of like the Ford Cobra from the 90's not making the stated HP, or Hyundai not getting 40mpg. The cars were advertised to one thing, but they did another. VW needs to be punished and customer heavily compensated as a big "we so sorry, we won't do it again", please buy one of our cars again in the future" but the longer they wait the less likely that is to happen.


I'm fairly confident you're going to be getting FMV + xx% for a buyback.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AJB said:


> its the fact that VW lied. Kinda of like the Ford Cobra from the 90's not making the stated HP, or Hyundai not getting 40mpg.


Except that no one would have ever known, not you, not even the government, nobody, had those pesky kids not stuck their nose in the tailpipe.



AJB said:


> The cars were advertised to one thing, but they did another. VW needs to be punished and customer heavily compensated as a big "we so sorry, we won't do it again"


But.....



AJB said:


> Honestly, for me its not about emissions,


So, you don't care about the emissions, but because they lied to _*you*_, about something you don't care about, it is now an offense you can not live with? 

I'd be mightily impressed if my I6 diesel MB is less of a polluter than the TDI, but wouldn't be morally outraged if it was, nor would I demand monetary satisfaction.


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

If your lease on one of the affected vehicles ended during this, what would be your options? Would it be any different than if this had never happened? Would it be in the owner's interest to buy the car out and hold onto it until a fix comes?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Skizzle1111 said:


> If your lease on one of the affected vehicles ended during this, what would be your options? Would it be any different than if this had never happened? Would it be in the owner's interest to buy the car out and hold onto it until a fix comes?


Unfortunately it would be the same as any other lease, you'd have nothing to show for your money. You have my sympathy.


----------



## chucchinchilla (Dec 25, 2004)

My neighbor told me his year old Cayenne diesel has lost half it's value over the last year or so and blames it on the diesel scandal. Not sure if that's really the case but assuming there's a fix for the thing that'll be one hell of a used car buy. Same with Touareg TDI.


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> Unfortunately it would be the same as any other lease, you'd have nothing to show for your money. You have my sympathy.


If the car was turned back in, would the dealer be able to do anything with it?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Skizzle1111 said:


> If the car was turned back in, would the dealer be able to do anything with it?


I hear they'll send them to Canada.


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> I hear they'll send them to Canada.


:laugh:


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Will you give me the pre-september value? No? Oh, that's right, you've bragged about how cheaply you picked yours up in this very thread.
> 
> I get that cars depreciate. They typically don't magically have several thousand dollars of their value disappear overnight. That's what happened here, and why myself and other owners are upset. How can you (and others) not understand that?


Agreed. And this specific chunk of depreciation occurred as as direct result of VW's cheating. I don't think anybody here is complaining about _typical_ depreciation...


----------



## DELTUFFO (Oct 27, 2012)

800,000 more recalls?

Please just **** off VW.


----------



## DELTUFFO (Oct 27, 2012)

You'reDrunk said:


> I'm will be bet a months wages, not one person will be charged criminally in this case. not in the usa


I'll bet you one of my cars against that 914-6 (/6 ?) if it's nice.

PM me.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

theonlyrobertson said:


> I'm not crying at all. It's is one of the best driving cars I've owned. But the fact is, it has depreciated significantly over this debacle and unless they fix it or buy it back, I will be one taking that hit.
> 
> The fines are a penalty which is not related to the depreciation I experience if I sell it.


I'm sick of hearing about this "OMG, MY CAR IS WORTH NOTHING NOW" BS. It's only depreciated to those who feel it has. 

Go have it detailed, write a great for sale ad, and attempt to sell it yourself. Believe it or not, there is a huge market that the dealerships CAN'T sell to and it's 100% to your advantage. The dealers can't sell, but lenders are still lending. 

After you've put serious effort into selling your car the correct way, come tell me how you lost a bunch of money and no one wants to buy your car.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Skizzle1111 said:


> If your lease on one of the affected vehicles ended during this, what would be your options? Would it be any different than if this had never happened? Would it be in the owner's interest to buy the car out and hold onto it until a fix comes?


No, If you leased the car you are actually doing way better than those who bought. The residual value would have been agreed upon on based on pre-scandal values and therefore the agreed upon "depreciation" that you are paying for via the lease is less than is actually is due to the scandal breaking and VW is eating the difference. I'm speculating here but at the end of the lease the buyout would be higher than the actual market value of the car so you wouldn't want to buy it. Since there is a stop sale VW might not technically be able to "sell" it to you at the end of the lease anyway, not sure if the stop sale applies to this type of transaction.

Either way, unless VW is offering you an insane deal to buy the TDI at the end of the lease you would want to run, not walk far far away unless you have some delusions that this will all blow over in a few years and these cars will be collector items 

That brings up an idea though. With everyone fighting over the "OMG my TDI is worth nothing now!" I wonder what the difference in TDI used market value is right now vs what the buyout is on TDI leases that are coming up? That would give us a really good idea of what portion of the depreciation is due to Dieselgate. :thumbup:


----------



## Stevenk83 (Feb 11, 2013)

aj4066 said:


> I'm sick of hearing about this "OMG, MY CAR IS WORTH NOTHING NOW" BS. It's only depreciated to those who feel it has.
> 
> Go have it detailed, write a great for sale ad, and attempt to sell it yourself. Believe it or not, there is a huge market that the dealerships CAN'T sell to and it's 100% to your advantage. The dealers can't sell, but lenders are still lending.
> 
> After you've put serious effort into selling your car the correct way, come tell me how you lost a bunch of money and no one wants to buy your car.


Wow, someone has their head in their own little world. 
My job is not to put serious effort into trying to sell a car for months and hoping someone comes along and wants to pay what is currently well above book value. I already spend 75+ hours a week running my business, don't need another job. Back in late August, when I started looking for a replacement, the mazda dealership was going to give me 13,800 for my car. They got a used 2016 Mazda 6 in how I wanted it, brought my car back in Oct. They were willing to give me 7,200 because of everything going on. At that point I decided to hold onto my car and hope nothing else goes wrong with it. But I have called other dealerships just out of curiosity, none were above 7,500 and 3 wouldn't even touch it. So please get off your high and mighty horse.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Skizzle1111 said:


> If your lease on one of the affected vehicles ended during this, what would be your options? Would it be any different than if this had never happened? Would it be in the owner's interest to buy the car out and hold onto it until a fix comes?


I'm in the same boat, on a lease. 

I'm not too sure what is happening to those who are on lease and have had their lease end in the middle of all of this. My thought is that VW has to either let them walk out of the lease as agreed or allow them to purchase the vehicle as agreed upon. They probably can't lease a new VW TDI however. *Anyone chime in on this? *

All of the speculation here talks about people who are buying vehicles. My thought is that those on leases would be offered to get out of them without penalty, if a buyback happens. -bring us the car and keys, here is an offer on another VW vehicle and if you don't want to take it, have a great day.

Again, all we can do is opcorn:


----------



## liquidonline (Jun 24, 2002)

chucchinchilla said:


> My neighbor told me his year old Cayenne diesel has lost half it's value over the last year or so and blames it on the diesel scandal. Not sure if that's really the case but assuming there's a fix for the thing that'll be one hell of a used car buy. Same with Touareg TDI.


Look, I'm in Canada, and as I understand it from recent posts by silly_me, we are apparently in a different world up here  I accept that my reality and yours are very different, so I say everything that follows from the perspective of my reality.

I'm actually in the market for a Touareg, and I wanted to buy used, and since I was looking at used/demo (max 2 yrs old), I figured I'd try to pick up a TDI. Up here in the winter wasteland of North America (It frikken snowed yesterday, just so that everything Americans say about Canada can be shown as true), I am cross shopping a 2015 USED TOUAREG execline TDI with a brand spanking new 2016 Touareg V6 Execline, and guess which one is cheaper? Not the used one.

I think too many people have found a crutch in the resale value of TDI.



aj4066 said:


> I'm sick of hearing about this "OMG, MY CAR IS WORTH NOTHING NOW" BS. It's only depreciated to those who feel it has.
> 
> Go have it detailed, write a great for sale ad, and attempt to sell it yourself. Believe it or not, there is a huge market that the dealerships CAN'T sell to and it's 100% to your advantage. The dealers can't sell, but lenders are still lending.
> 
> After you've put serious effort into selling your car the correct way, come tell me how you lost a bunch of money and no one wants to buy your car.


Because THIS^^^.

I may wind up buying a gas model because at the end of the day, a brand new Touareg may cost me a couple of thousand LESS than a used TDI (Let that sink in folks), and that's before getting into the financing. The gas model benefits from VW financing, I can get 1.9% for 3 years. The best I've got for financing the used car is 4.29%. Net-Net, the used version of what I really want will cost me about $6000 more.

If your TDI is worthless, I think it speaks as much to your ability to be a salesperson as it does to the value of the car. The whole resale thing is a non-issue here - oh, and I'm looking outside of province too, it's not a local phenomenon


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

aj4066 said:


> I'm in the same boat, on a lease.
> 
> I'm not too sure what is happening to those who are on lease and have had their lease end in the middle of all of this. My thought is that VW has to either let them walk out of the lease as agreed or allow them to purchase the vehicle as agreed upon. They probably can't lease a new VW TDI however. *Anyone chime in on this? *


If I'm not mistaken Fraud in the Inducement makes a contract (IE lease) voidable. So if you really wanted out of your TDI lease you could do so (may involve expensive legal costs though and you may or may not be screwed out of any large down payment you made).


----------



## liquidonline (Jun 24, 2002)

Stevenk83 said:


> Wow, someone has their head in their own little world.
> My job is not to put serious effort into trying to sell a car for months and hoping someone comes along and wants to pay what is currently well above book value. I already spend 75+ hours a week running my business, don't need another job. Back in late August, when I started looking for a replacement, the mazda dealership was going to give me 13,800 for my car. They got a used 2016 Mazda 6 in how I wanted it, brought my car back in Oct. They were willing to give me 7,200 because of everything going on. At that point I decided to hold onto my car and hope nothing else goes wrong with it. But I have called other dealerships just out of curiosity, none were above 7,500 and 3 wouldn't even touch it. So please get off your high and mighty horse.


Here is a search within 100 miles of NYC. Comparing to prices in Canadaland, if considering the flailing CAD, these come in at MORE than what they would cost up here, which, when placed along side another tidbit of fact: VW's were always cheaper to buy in the US than in Canada, allows me to draw a certain conclusion that appears to be in complete conflict with your view of the land.

Last I checked, car salesmen were down with the pond scum. OF COURSE they'll tell you your car is worthless, because it's being "mediatized" as such. Put it up for sale on $used_car_site, and maybe you'll have better luck. I've never sold cars to stealerships; I'm not into anal.

My money's on the likelihood that from October until now, you could have sold that car, and you'd have been able to keep driving it around until it was sold, then walk into your mazda stealership with a wad of cash (I wouldn't, after they actively tried to tank a sale, but whatever). So basically, do what you've done since October + a for-sale sign. I'm pretty sure most who sell cars privately also works, I know I do. I guess it's a question of how much you value your hard earned money. I like money, I don't like giving it away.


----------



## Ambrose Wolfinger (Feb 21, 2005)

I went to a local VW dealer the other day. I chatted with a sales manager about the diesel fiasco. He told me they have a few late model TDI's on the lot, and confirmed they are not allowed to sell them to customers. BUT, he did say if I were interested in buying one, I could still purchase it, but I would have to buy it through a wholesaler. The deal would be negotiated through them (the dealer) but they would "sell" the car to a wholesaler and I would actually pay the wholesaler. I'm not sure how this would affect financing.

It seemed a bit shady at first, but I suppose it is technically possible since other dealers and sellers are still selling them.

Am I crazy for still considering buying a TDI? I'm not worried about depreciation as I tend to keep my cars for a long time.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

DELTUFFO said:


> I'll bet you one of my cars against that 914-6 (/6 ?) if it's nice.
> 
> PM me.


it is. and no.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

bill1975 said:


> Am I crazy for still considering buying a TDI?


I dunno, you'll have to be vetted first.

1) Do you support Bernie Sanders for President?

2) Have you attended any protests in the last decade?

3) Do you think big business is the great satan?

4) do you feel a slight sting at the thought of driving a car you were lied to about, and could possibly kill babies after coating their candy in soot?





5) Are you a vegan?

If you answered yes to any of the above you would be better off with a Prius. Or, a Tesla, if you really want to show you care.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

Silly_me said:


> Or, a Tesla, if you really want to show you care.


:thumbup::laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> I dunno, you'll have to be vetted first.
> 
> 1) Do you support Bernie Sanders for President?
> 
> ...


you sir are my hero!!!

your posts are what make this place tolerable.

:thumbup:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Stevenk83 said:


> Wow, someone has their head in their own little world.
> My job is not to put serious effort into trying to sell a car for months and hoping someone comes along and wants to pay what is currently well above book value. I already spend 75+ hours a week running my business, don't need another job. Back in late August, when I started looking for a replacement, the mazda dealership was going to give me 13,800 for my car. They got a used 2016 Mazda 6 in how I wanted it, brought my car back in Oct. They were willing to give me 7,200 because of everything going on. At that point I decided to hold onto my car and hope nothing else goes wrong with it. But I have called other dealerships just out of curiosity, none were above 7,500 and 3 wouldn't even touch it. So please get off your high and mighty horse.


So your plan was to always trade at a dealership that is almost always lower than private sale? It is work to sell a car and that work returns a greater reward than selling your car to a dealership. 

If you have time to read and post on TCL, you probably have time to sell a car. 

Otherwise, your time is more valuable than the money you earn from selling your car on your own.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

aj4066 said:


> So your plan was to always trade at a dealership that is almost always lower than private sale? It is work to sell a car and that work returns a greater reward than selling your car to a dealership.
> 
> If you have time to read and post on TCL, you probably have time to sell a car.
> 
> Otherwise, your time is more valuable than the money you earn from selling your car on your own.


but then when would he and people like him have time to whine about the problems in their life, and the post the reasons its NOT their fault????


----------



## Chesed (Jan 21, 2004)

You'reDrunk said:


> but then when would he and people like him have time to whine about the problems in their life, and the post the reasons its NOT their fault????


What I do with my own car is none of your business; isn't personal autonomy the hallmark of conservatives these days? Isn't what you're advocating above _exactly_ the belief that we alone are responsible for our own lot in life?

So who are you to tell me that I am _wrong_ for wanting to trade the car in at a dealership, taking the tax break on my new purchase that equals at least one thousand dollars, and not spending eight hours of my life waiting for people to show up, driving around the block, haggling over pricing, chasing around funds to pay off the note, waiting for the title to arrive? Isn't that my prerogative, even if it doesn't make sense to you? Isn't that, ah, _*freedom*_? And what gall on your part to think depriving me of that freedom shouldn't come with a cost. I don't want you making decisions for me. I don't even like you.

I am being forced into a less than desirable scenario through VW's wrongdoing. I have been deprived of a course of action through VW's fraud. And, yes, I have suffered a real loss in the value of my car as a result.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Chesed said:


> What I do with my own car is none of your business; isn't personal autonomy the hallmark of conservatives these days? Isn't what you're advocating above _exactly_ the belief that we alone are responsible for our own lot in life?
> 
> So who are you to tell me that I am _wrong_ for wanting to trade the car in at a dealership, taking the tax break on my new purchase that equals at least one thousand dollars, and not spending eight hours of my life waiting for people to show up, driving around the block, haggling over pricing, chasing around funds to pay off the note, waiting for the title to arrive? Isn't that my prerogative, even if it doesn't make sense to you? Isn't that, ah, _*freedom*_? And what gall on your part to think depriving me of that freedom shouldn't come with a cost. I don't want you making decisions for me. I don't even like you.
> 
> I am being forced into a less than desirable scenario through VW's wrongdoing. I have been deprived of a course of action through VW's fraud. And, yes, I have suffered a real loss in the value of my car as a result.


fine.

then sell the damned car at a loss, and file a suit as is your prerogative. but for the love of all that is unholy, stop bitching about it.

do SOMETHING!

what, you'll have a claim for $4K or $5K which you can use small claims for, or join the class action. but to sit around here and bitch about something with ZERO action is just stupid. the amount you may or may not lose is not worth waiting around for others, regardless of the reason. the "loss" you are claiming shouldn't be more than $100/mo in a financed payment.

if you can't afford that, then you probably can't afford a new car anyways. also, under the LAW, you don't have a loss until you actually realize it.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Silly_me said:


> Except that no one would have ever known, not you, not even the government, nobody, had those pesky kids not stuck their nose in the tailpipe.
> 
> But.....
> 
> ...



Let me clarify, if the tdi was supposed to make 140hp stock and was advertised as such, but really only made 120hp, I'd be ticked off just the same as I am with this scandal. To me both issues are equality bad and should either be foxed with a technical solution or compensation to the owners of these cars.


----------



## Chesed (Jan 21, 2004)

You'reDrunk said:


> fine.
> 
> then sell the damned car at a loss, and file a suit as is your prerogative. but for the love of all that is unholy, stop bitching about it.
> 
> ...


_One_ of us is bitching, for sure. Just sayin'.


----------



## PJA (Dec 1, 1999)

You'reDrunk said:


> fine.
> 
> then sell the damned car at a loss, and file a suit as is your prerogative. but for the love of all that is unholy, stop bitching about it.
> 
> ...


That might be one of the most blatantly ridiculous things I've ever read on this forum. Like, red rotors ridiculous.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

You'reDrunk said:


> but for the love of all that is unholy, stop bitching about it.


Trust me, your holier-than-thou posts are no less tolerable than people venting about their frustration with VW.


----------



## Stevenk83 (Feb 11, 2013)

You'reDrunk said:


> but then when would he and people like him have time to whine about the problems in their life, and the post the reasons its NOT their fault????


Someone thinks he's better than others. I happen to take full actions for what goes on in my life. Hence I own my own business, and work my ass off. I preach you reap what you sow, so before you go spouting off and trying to insult someone that you don't know, about their lifestyle, next time think about it first so you don't come across looking like an idiot and an ass. As you can see by my huge post numbers, I spend a ton of time on here bitching like you 2 geniuses seem to believe. Fact of the matter is, VW is the one that lied, and I'm the one that is out because of it.


----------



## Ambrose Wolfinger (Feb 21, 2005)

Silly_me said:


> I dunno, you'll have to be vetted first.
> 
> 1) Do you support Bernie Sanders for President?
> 
> ...


I answer yes to one of those but I like irony far more than other people's children.


----------



## Stevenk83 (Feb 11, 2013)

liquidonline said:


> Here is a search within 100 miles of NYC. Comparing to prices in Canadaland, if considering the flailing CAD, these come in at MORE than what they would cost up here, which, when placed along side another tidbit of fact: VW's were always cheaper to buy in the US than in Canada, allows me to draw a certain conclusion that appears to be in complete conflict with your view of the land.
> 
> Last I checked, car salesmen were down with the pond scum. OF COURSE they'll tell you your car is worthless, because it's being "mediatized" as such. Put it up for sale on $used_car_site, and maybe you'll have better luck. I've never sold cars to stealerships; I'm not into anal.
> 
> My money's on the likelihood that from October until now, you could have sold that car, and you'd have been able to keep driving it around until it was sold, then walk into your mazda stealership with a wad of cash (I wouldn't, after they actively tried to tank a sale, but whatever). So basically, do what you've done since October + a for-sale sign. I'm pretty sure most who sell cars privately also works, I know I do. I guess it's a question of how much you value your hard earned money. I like money, I don't like giving it away.


I'm not into anal either, well not receiving it lol.Every car I've traded in I've gotten to within about $750-1000 of private sale price once I figure in taxes. Considering the time I would have to put in to selling my car, I believe that is a fair trade off in my book. Working for an hour has the possibility of covering that difference. Can you blame dealers for not wanting to take the cars if they know the cars have the potential to be sitting on lots and possibly not being able to sell them? It's called smart business. The customer has the choice to be smart and walk away or sell the car and be an idiot.

Also, I did post it for a about 2 weeks, after all the stupid lowball offers, no way. In 2 weeks I had about 7 offers, the highest being 9,500. Still well below what the value of the car was worth before this. Most people that say they want to buy one are looking to steal one. They aren't stupid and going to pay what the car should be worth, not knowing what is going to happen.


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

JohnNS said:


> The car is drivable, sure, but not sellable. I've tried. 3 dealerships wouldn't trade it in and all offers were way, way to low. Selling it is a fine idea if you want to take a loss that shouldn't be there. If not for VW's fraud I wouldn't likely be in the vehicle these past 6 months.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What kind of vehicle are you hoping to get?


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

Stevenk83 said:


> I'm not into anal either, well not receiving it lol.Every car I've traded in I've gotten to within about $750-1000 of private sale price once I figure in taxes. Considering the time I would have to put in to selling my car, I believe that is a fair trade off in my book. Working for an hour has the possibility of covering that difference. Can you blame dealers for not wanting to take the cars if they know the cars have the potential to be sitting on lots and possibly not being able to sell them? It's called smart business. The customer has the choice to be smart and walk away or sell the car and be an idiot.
> 
> Also, I did post it for a about 2 weeks, after all the stupid lowball offers, no way. In 2 weeks I had about 7 offers, the highest being 9,500. Still well below what the value of the car was worth before this. Most people that say they want to buy one are looking to steal one. They aren't stupid and going to pay what the car should be worth, not knowing what is going to happen.


What is your car ? I am curious about the details...


----------



## Stevenk83 (Feb 11, 2013)

phospher5 said:


> What is your car ? I am curious about the details...


2011 JSW with DSG and 82,000 miles


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

chucchinchilla said:


> My neighbor told me his year old Cayenne diesel has lost half it's value over the last year or so and blames it on the diesel scandal. Not sure if that's really the case but assuming there's a fix for the thing that'll be one hell of a used car buy. Same with Touareg TDI.


I'd trade up for a Cayenne. Though I miss the Touareg (traded cars w/wife for the year), another check engine light for failed adblue parts. 

I would guestimate 15% of the people out there who can truly bitch and complain about selling it w/depressed values. Another 50% who just want to complain because they can now, whom really had no plans to sell it. Rest are driving their cars w/o a care and waiting. Life could be worse, your home value could suddenly drop in half.


----------



## AVCon (Jun 28, 2014)

So is anyone planning to buy a new TDi whenever the start selling.


----------



## Stevenk83 (Feb 11, 2013)

rich! said:


> I'd trade up for a Cayenne. Though I miss the Touareg (traded cars w/wife for the year), another check engine light for failed adblue parts.
> 
> I would guestimate 15% of the people out there who can truly bitch and complain about selling it w/depressed values. Another 50% who just want to complain because they can now, whom really had no plans to sell it. Rest are driving their cars w/o a care and waiting. Life could be worse, your home value could suddenly drop in half.


Life most definitely could be worse. In the grand scheme of things, for the vast majority it's going to be a minor inconvenience. 

It hit me because I was looking to get rid of the car since it has already left me stranded numerous times. Now while waiting, hopefully another major problem doesn't happen.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

AVCon said:


> So is anyone planning to buy a new TDi whenever the start selling.


What makes you think they're going to start selling them again? Even if they can on a _technical_ level, one of the big reasons to buy one was because of resale, and that is forever gone.

They're going to go electric, as that's the only way to get back ther "green cred" with the public. It'll take many years to get back their "not lying to the customer" cred.

I have no inside information and haven't heard substantiated rumors either way, but that's my take on it. Sorry, but I think if you want a new one, that time has passed.


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

AJB said:


> Let me clarify, if the tdi was supposed to make 140hp stock and was advertised as such, but really only made 120hp, I'd be ticked off just the same as I am with this scandal. To me both issues are equality bad and should either be foxed with a technical solution or compensation to the owners of these cars.


A clear statement that matches my thinking. I bought "X." I paid on the basis of "X." VW sold me "less than X", on purpose, thinking no one would find out. That's not okay, and I am ticked off about it. I don't understand why that is hard for some to grasp. I'm fortunate. Unlike others whose circumstances differ from mine, I have no imminent need to sell the vehicle. I can choose to wait until the EPA and CARB decide VWoA's fate, and then decide if I'm satisfied with the resolution or not. But I remain ticked off that I invested my money in the product of a company who promised me "X" and intentionally gave me "less than X."


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Bird67 said:


> I don't understand why that is hard for some to grasp.


Because no one believes your were cross shopping other cars with an eye to the smog ratings?


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

Silly_me said:


> Because no one believes your were cross shopping other cars with an eye to the smog ratings?


That is very true. I was cross-shopping a number of factors, and this was not among them. It was a non-factor because I felt safe assuming that whatever I bought would comply with US law in all respects. It does not, and I am displeased. How displeased will depend on the resolution of the noncompliance. 

If VW had designed my vehicle with noncompliant bumpers in deliberate defiance of US law, I'd be displeased even though I didn't cross-shop its bumpers. How displeased I would be would depend on the resolution of the bumper noncompliance. 

If I pay someone to build me a house that complies with all codes, and the builder deliberately used plumbing that doesn't meet code, I'd be displeased. How displeased would depend on the resolution of the plumbing noncompliance.

I like my 3.0 VW as is. It is a good vehicle. I hope resolution for this particular motor is that it gets left alone.


----------



## AVCon (Jun 28, 2014)

Air and water do mix said:


> What makes you think they're going to start selling them again? Even if they can on a _technical_ level, one of the big reasons to buy one was because of resale, and that is forever gone.
> 
> They're going to go electric, as that's the only way to get back ther "green cred" with the public. It'll take many years to get back their "not lying to the customer" cred.
> 
> I have no inside information and haven't heard substantiated rumors either way, but that's my take on it. Sorry, but I think if you want a new one, that time has passed.



I was recently into my local VW dealer which is in a small town and they have about 20 2015 TDi's or various types sitting on their back lot. I asked about them and was told that they could start selling them in June or July, I didn't ask why than tho. I was told they will be going at huge discounts just to move them. I recently bought a 2015 Jetta but ended up with a gas because of the purchase price (2 days before dieselgate, so i guess i dodged that bullet), I had planned to buy a used TDi but it made more sense to get the brand new car with warranty for lower payments than a used Tdi. If the 2015 Tdi's really do go at a huge discount I have no issues buying one.

I've also heard stories of dealers selling the 2015 TDi's as used after using them as demo's for a few 1000 clicks.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

I get it, it's like the guy that bought that Rolex on the corner, wore it proudly for years, until one day he met a new friend who happened to be a jeweler whom said, _Harvey, I gotta tell ya, and you may feel a slight sting, but that ain't no Rolex, its a fake. But don't worry, you still have a nice, reliable, tarted up Casio, could be worse, you could have a VW!_


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

Silly_me said:


> I get it, it's like the guy that bought that Rolex on the corner, wore it proudly for years, until one day he met a new friend who happened to be a jeweler whom said, _Harvey, I gotta tell ya, and you may feel a slight sting, but that ain't no Rolex, its a fake. But don't worry, you still have a nice, reliable, tarted up Casio, could be worse, you could have a VW!_


Funny, I was going to post that exact analogy - except that instead of buying it on the street corner, I bought it from an Authorized Rolex Dealer who had no idea Rolex was lying and putting Casio parts in it. It still keeps great time, it does everything you want a watch to do...until it doesn't, or until you go to have it fixed, or until you go to sell it...


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Bird67 said:


> A clear statement that matches my thinking. I bought "X." I paid on the basis of "X." VW sold me "less than X", on purpose, thinking no one would find out. That's not okay, and I am ticked off about it. I don't understand why that is hard for some to grasp. I'm fortunate. Unlike others whose circumstances differ from mine, I have no imminent need to sell the vehicle. I can choose to wait until the EPA and CARB decide VWoA's fate, and then decide if I'm satisfied with the resolution or not. But I remain ticked off that I invested my money in the product of a company who promised me "X" and intentionally gave me "less than X."


I'd also add that like T5 Dave or Dave T5, I have no reason to sell the car right now. It runs and drives just fine, and my wife likes the gas mileage and initially we were planning on keeping our JSW well past 200k. Once of the reason we got a diesel in the first place.


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

I received this survey from Hagens Berman yesterday, the firm handling the class action lawsuit, with the following questions: 



> If VW were able to fix your car such that it complies with new federal and state emissions requirements with less than a 5% deviation in fuel efficiency and performance; and VW were to pay you a lump sum of 20% of the trade-in book value of your car as of Sept. 15, 2015, would you accept that offer of fix + 20% in exchange for a full release of all claims against VW?
> 
> If VW were able to fix your car as described above, but offered to buy your car back from you at the trade-in book value as of Sept. 15, 2015, plus a 20% lump sum premium and the cost of taxes and licensing of your VW when new, would you accept that buyback offer of trade in value + 20% in exchange for a full release of all claims against VW?
> 
> If VW were not able to fix your car, would you accept the buy-back plus 20% offer described above in exchange for a full release of all claims against VW?


Perhaps these are some of the more likely outcomes?


----------



## Merckx (Apr 20, 2002)

I was amazed to read here that vw is going to start selling 2015 tdis....are you sure? the post said at a steep discount...I'd be all over one of those...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Skizzle1111 said:


> I received this survey from Hagens Berman yesterday, the firm handling the class action lawsuit, with the following questions:
> 
> (repair, buyback instead of repair, buyback only)
> 
> Perhaps these are some of the more likely outcomes?


If it came from a major firm associated with one of the lawsuits, then you can bet they are in negotiations for those exact options, but would like to be armed with survey data when they're at the negotiating table.


----------



## AVCon (Jun 28, 2014)

Merckx said:


> I was amazed to read here that vw is going to start selling 2015 tdis....are you sure? the post said at a steep discount...I'd be all over one of those...



I assume you are referring to my post. 

I only received this info talking to a head sales manager at my local VW dealer, which is small town Nova Scotia. I would like to think he's in the know but it could be just speculation and just sales talk. 

If I could pick up a deeply discounted TDI I really wouldn't have an issue with it. They have to do something with them. The cars are sitting on dealers lots costing the dealerships money in inventory. Having that kind of dead stock would slowly bleed a dealership dry. So if they get the go ahead to sell I can see the motivation to move. I took another look today and I counted 23 Tdi's between the Jetat's and Golf's and Passat's, and I could of easily missed a few. 

My local dealer has also gone heavily into used cars to keep afloat. In the past they've only kept VW certified used cars and a few mixed newer vehicles on the lot, now the have everything and under half the lot space is left for new cars. The sales manager told me they are hitting bottom on sales fast and only have been surviving on Tiguan and low end Jetta sales. I got a killer deal on my 2.0L Jetta at the time and now that's the average deal.


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

Skizzle1111 said:


> I received this survey from Hagens Berman yesterday, the firm handling the class action lawsuit, with the following questions:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps these are some of the more likely outcomes?


After reading this I went to the Hagens Berman VW website. They are taking a survey. The survey questions on their website differ markedly from what you posted. It is worth looking at (link below). One difference that jumps out: the survey you quoted uses "trade-in value" as the benchmark, whereas on line they talk about KBB Private Party value. 

https://www.hbsslaw.com/volkswagenaudi-owner-resource-hub/vw-owner-hub-settlement-survey


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

Air and water do mix said:


> What makes you think they're going to start selling them again?* Even if they can on a technical level, one of the big reasons to buy one was because of resale, and that is forever gone.*


For some, sure - but I doubt for the majority. Most owners* from new* hold onto Diesels for at least 1 to 1.5 decades, if not longer, and are not concerned about resale value too much, after 200,000 to 300,000 miles driving or more.

People who buy_ old_ Diesels of course won't make much money selling them a short time later - and never have.


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

I have a gen 1 CR TDI car. Apparently VW will fix this with new software and a new LNT. Setting aside VW's engineering cost for developing the new software and LNT and their cost for proving to skeptical CARB engineers that it works, what will VW's cost be to fix my car? I'm thinking labor and parts are not so much. I guess I'm also excluding the cost of any replacement part that might be needed during the extended warranty period.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

$1,165.38 or so.


----------



## OrdinaryGirl (Mar 16, 2005)

feels_road said:


> For some, sure - but I doubt for the majority. Most owners* from new* hold onto Diesels for at least 1 to 1.5 decades, if not longer, and are not concerned about resale value too much, after 200,000 to 300,000 miles driving or more.
> 
> People who buy_ old_ Diesels of course won't make much money selling them a short time later - and never have.


It's a longevity thing - I've had mine for 6 years now, and i fully intend on driving it until there's nothing left, and I know that's another several hundred thousand kms. If a new diesel is not an option when I want to purchase a replacement, I'll have to address the issue then - I'm hoping all of this forces vw to consider the consumer car market in North America on whole, and I'm hoping it means we end up getting things here like the up! And the Polo or the lupo. Because I will be the first person in line to buy a kitted out up! at the local dealer, hands down. I don't even care about going back to a car payment - I want a tiny little econo box that is still a vw. And like every vw driver, I want it because it's unique. 

The wagon has been great but we no longer use it as a wagon. It's just a large car.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

OrdinaryGirl said:


> It's a longevity thing - I've had mine for 6 years now, and i fully intend on driving it until there's nothing left, and I know that's another several hundred thousand kms. If a new diesel is not an option when I want to purchase a replacement, I'll have to address the issue then - I'm hoping all of this forces vw to consider the consumer car market in North America on whole, and I'm hoping it means we end up getting things here like the up! And the Polo or the lupo. Because I will be the first person in line to buy a kitted out up! at the local dealer, hands down. I don't even care about going back to a car payment - I want a tiny little econo box that is still a vw. And like every vw driver, I want it because it's unique.
> 
> The wagon has been great but we no longer use it as a wagon. It's just a large car.


Cool, but you do realize your car is not part of the recall?


----------



## OrdinaryGirl (Mar 16, 2005)

phil123 said:


> Cool, but you do realize your car is not part of the recall?


I do. But so many people do not it seems - as far as the average person is concerned, any newer model diesel is part of this recall, facts aside. 

I have been told so many times since this all started that my car is dirty because of all this, or that it will have zero resale value, or what do I think vw will do for me, that I do have to wonder if it would actually affect the resale value of a mk4 indirectly. It sounds absurd to me every time someone says it, but it's still an item of conversation. And I do wonder if the effects of all of this will make vw reconsider what they sell here. 

Otherwise, my apologies for entering the discussion. Carry on.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

No worries, i just didn't know if you thought VW was going to buy back your car/fixed :thumbup::thumbup:

The MK3s and MK4s are still very popular for their MPG's, but i agree it likely did have some sort of negative impact on resale (for you)


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

ALHs are going up in price, not down. But you need to know where to list them.


----------



## OrdinaryGirl (Mar 16, 2005)

atomicalex said:


> ALHs are going up in price, not down. But you need to know where to list them.


Yeah they don't seem to have held they're value too well here, but thankfully I think I'll just keep it. The dealer here can't keep new diesels on the lot, oddly enough. It doesn't seem to have discouraged any locals from buying them. 


phil123 said:


> No worries, i just didn't know if you thought VW was going to buy back your car/fixed :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> The MK3s and MK4s are still very popular for their MPG's, but i agree it likely did have some sort of negative impact on resale (for you)


God no. And I don't care - it has 300k kms on it, and I expect it's useful life to be another 300k at least. It's more that I'm hoping this whole disaster will make maybe even car manufacturers in general look at what they're producing and selling. While I'm perfectly happy getting that many miles out of my tdi, I *would* trade it in immediately for the right car. Options, people. I just want options.

My point (I guess) is that the perception isn't limited to what *is* or *isn't* affected. People don't care about facts, don't want to know facts, just want to tell you how awful your car is and how you're giving everyone cancer.


----------



## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

OrdinaryGirl said:


> My point (I guess) is that the perception isn't limited to what *is* or *isn't* affected. People don't care about facts, don't want to know facts, just want to tell you how awful your car is and how you're giving everyone cancer.


You've got that right. :thumbup: When I said essentially the same thing with different words a few pages back on this thread and used another controversial analogy, I was dismissed as a crackpot. That's why I rarely come here. The whole Dieselgate debacle has added fuel to the quintessential VW haters' fire, and the Car Lounge is perhaps their biggest platform in cyberspace.


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

atomicalex said:


> ALHs are going up in price, not down. But you need to know where to list them.


The ALH engine cars are probably a niche (used) car market now. The inferiority of the automatic transmission that was used at the time (much worse fuel economy, questionable reliability even by early-2000s VW standards) means that the diesel manual a4 cars (1998-2003) are highly sought after by a few, but uninteresting for most.


----------



## OrdinaryGirl (Mar 16, 2005)

tjl said:


> The ALH engine cars are probably a niche (used) car market now. The inferiority of the automatic transmission that was used at the time (much worse fuel economy, questionable reliability even by early-2000s VW standards) means that the diesel manual a4 cars (1998-2003) are highly sought after by a few, but uninteresting for most.


They're uninteresting even to those of us who have them.

Seriously. It's a terribly boring car. But I only fill up once a month, which offsets filling up the Dodge at least once a week.


----------



## Astronaut3000 (Sep 9, 2002)

atomicalex said:


> ALHs are going up in price, not down. But you need to know where to list them.


Where? I have a '10 4-door Golf with manual trans I want to get out of.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Blonde Guy said:


> I have a gen 1 CR TDI car. Apparently VW will fix this with new software and a new LNT.


I'm sure VW would like very much for it to be that simple, but no fix has been accepted by CARB or EPA yet. It may be another month before we year if there's a plan in the works that is acceptable to both VW and CARB/EPA to repair cars, or if they will need to do buybacks for the older ones, like the LNT models in specific.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Astronaut3000 said:


> Where? I have a '10 4-door Golf with manual trans I want to get out of.


That's not an ALH.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

Astronaut3000 said:


> Where? I have a '10 4-door Golf with manual trans I want to get out of.


If it's got an ALH in it, you've got something special.


----------



## Astronaut3000 (Sep 9, 2002)

Haha.. Oops. Right.
I'll keep waiting for VW to figure something out. :banghead:


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

"NEW: FTC sues Volkswagen AG for false advertising over excess diesel emissions; FTC says consumers suffered "billions" in injury - Reuters"


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

rich! said:


> "NEW: FTC sues Volkswagen AG for false advertising over excess diesel emissions; FTC says consumers suffered "billions" in injury - Reuters"


Here's the press release from the FTC itself:

https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/pre...olkswagen-deceived-consumers-its-clean-diesel



FTC said:


> FTC Charges Volkswagen Deceived Consumers with its “Clean Diesel” Campaign
> Seeks Compensation for Those Who Bought or Leased Affected VW and Audi Vehicles over Seven-Year Period
> For Release
> March 29, 2016
> ...


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Bird67 said:


> After reading this I went to the Hagens Berman VW website. They are taking a survey. The survey questions on their website differ markedly from what you posted. It is worth looking at (link below). One difference that jumps out: the survey you quoted uses "trade-in value" as the benchmark, whereas on line they talk about KBB Private Party value.
> 
> https://www.hbsslaw.com/volkswagenaudi-owner-resource-hub/vw-owner-hub-settlement-survey


How can one even answer those questions without details on the proposed "Fix"? I would under no circumstances release my claims against VW unless the fix was 100% warrantied for a long time. It's funny that that is never mentioned. The lower performance and fuel economy are important issues but what about reliability?


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> Here's the press release from the FTC itself:
> 
> https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/pre...olkswagen-deceived-consumers-its-clean-diesel


I could be wrong, but this seems like it would result in better compensation to owners then a class action suit.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> Here's the press release from the FTC itself:
> 
> https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/pre...olkswagen-deceived-consumers-its-clean-diesel


The whole family of clean diesels.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

The longer VW takes the more restless the customers are getting. I'm frustrating with these delays as much as the next guy. You don't even get a delay to pay a parking ticket before they throw you in the slammer.

April 21st cannot come soon enough...oh never-mind they will probably just give VW more time again.

Another question, if they do buy back cars at FMV + 20%, how will they know how many miles were on my car on sept 1st? What if I just came back from a trip that added 3000 miles to my car? I'd have to double check but my wife drives about 25k per year, so there is probably 10k on the car since 9/1/15.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

AJB said:


> The longer VW takes the more restless the customers are getting. I'm frustrating with these delays as much as the next guy. You don't even get a delay to pay a parking ticket before they throw you in the slammer.
> 
> April 21st cannot come soon enough...oh never-mind they will probably just give VW more time again.
> 
> Another question, if they do buy back cars at FMV + 20%, how will they know how many miles were on my car on sept 1st? What if I just came back from a trip that added 3000 miles to my car? I'd have to double check but my wife drives about 25k per year, so there is probably 10k on the car since 9/1/15.


In my case FMV +20% means there's no way I could replace the car with an equivalent without spending a lot of money, so I want them to fix it and let me keep driving it. I'd be sorely pissed at VW if my cars got repossessed because of *their *mistake.


----------



## OrdinaryGirl (Mar 16, 2005)

atomicalex said:


> That's not an ALH.





Astronaut3000 said:


> Where? I have a '10 4-door Golf with manual trans I want to get out of.


Yeah, wouldn't that be PD?


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

T5 Dave said:


> In my case FMV +20% means there's no way I could replace the car with an equivalent without spending a lot of money, so I want them to fix it and let me keep driving it. I'd be sorely pissed at VW if my cars got repossessed because of *their *mistake.


I'm in the same situation as you. But I was really asking a different question. I just want some kind of closure to this whole issue.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

T5 Dave said:


> if my cars got repossessed because of *their *mistake.


that is not going to happen.


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

AZGolf said:


> I'm sure VW would like very much for it to be that simple, but no fix has been accepted by CARB or EPA yet. It may be another month before we year if there's a plan in the works that is acceptable to both VW and CARB/EPA to repair cars, or if they will need to do buybacks for the older ones, like the LNT models in specific.


If the fix is that simple, that's great for gen 1 CR TDI owners. Of all the proposed outcomes for those cars, it seems the most plausible. CARB/EPA does not want to punish the owners. Neither does VW. This fix would result in a pretty standard recall, maybe a few hours labor, one moderately expensive part and it's done. It corrects the emissions, and leaves MPG and power mostly unchanged. Maybe there are other issues that would take CARB, EPA and VW some time to resolve. I hope you are right that we'll find out in another month.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

AZGolf said:


> Here's the press release from the FTC itself:
> 
> https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/pre...olkswagen-deceived-consumers-its-clean-diesel


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Blonde Guy said:


> If the fix is that simple, that's great for gen 1 CR TDI owners. Of all the proposed outcomes for those cars, it seems the most plausible. CARB/EPA does not want to punish the owners. Neither does VW. This fix would result in a pretty standard recall, maybe a few hours labor, one moderately expensive part and it's done. It corrects the emissions, and leaves MPG and power mostly unchanged. Maybe there are other issues that would take CARB, EPA and VW some time to resolve. I hope you are right that we'll find out in another month.


Can you cite where you are getting this info?


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

spockcat said:


> The whole family of clean diesels.


Mine is very clean. It usually gets vacuumed and washed once a week.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Blonde Guy said:


> If the fix is that simple, that's great for gen 1 CR TDI owners. Of all the proposed outcomes for those cars, it seems the most plausible. CARB/EPA does not want to punish the owners. Neither does VW. This fix would result in a pretty standard recall, maybe a few hours labor, one moderately expensive part and it's done. It corrects the emissions, and leaves MPG and power mostly unchanged. Maybe there are other issues that would take CARB, EPA and VW some time to resolve. I hope you are right that we'll find out in another month.


My fix is to rip out all of the emissions crap. I'm rolling coal baby!!!


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Blonde Guy said:


> If the fix is that simple, that's great for gen 1 CR TDI owners. Of all the proposed outcomes for those cars, it seems the most plausible. CARB/EPA does not want to punish the owners. Neither does VW. This fix would result in a pretty standard recall, maybe a few hours labor, one moderately expensive part and it's done. It corrects the emissions, and leaves MPG and power mostly unchanged. Maybe there are other issues that would take CARB, EPA and VW some time to resolve. I hope you are right that we'll find out in another month.


At this point, the fix that you mentioned (different LNT + reprogramming) is speculative, because nothing has been announced.

I find it hard to believe that LNT technology could reduce emissions by a factor of 15 - 35 (allowing the oft-quoted "40 times" as a momentary transgression) without repercussions. No one else has been able to do it. Every other vehicle in the european market that uses a LNT has also been found to have high real-world NOx emissions. There is no magic here.

Obviously the car could meet the standards for the duration of the Federal Test Procedure but I'm concerned that there would be DPF-longevity issues if they attempted to operate in that manner all the time. You can't arbitrarily make the LNT 15 times bigger ... not only will it not fit the vehicle, but the other problem is that the engine won't be able to keep it hot enough.

It is possible that VW will replace the LNT with a somewhat bigger one and reprogram something in order to somewhat reduce real world NOx emissions (not really achieving full compliance) while not impacting the DPF too badly - basically a compromise - and pay a big fine for what they weren't able to achieve. I'd say it's plausible. But it's still speculative.

My sister owns one of these cars (previously my dad's car). I'm recommending to her, to not let VW do anything to it, unless it comes with an absolutely iron-clad warranty: "the full cost to the end user of causing a check-engine lamp to go off and stay off shall be zero, and the full cost to the end user of passing a Drive Clean test shall be the standard fee for administering the test once and only once, no matter what it actually takes in order to achieve that". Period. No mileage limitation. No age limitation. No excuses. No blaming the end user for driving the car wrongly. No not fixing or replacing things or trying to make the customer pay because "they're not covered by the emissions warranty" even though they caused the warning lamp to come on. No blaming the end user for ANYthing. If VW doesn't do that, they can have the car back.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

*Reliability has been addressed by CARB and the EPA*



JitteryJoe said:


> How can one even answer those questions without details on the proposed "Fix"? I would under no circumstances release my claims against VW unless the fix was 100% warrantied for a long time. It's funny that that is never mentioned. The lower performance and fuel economy are important issues but what about reliability?



Both CARB and the EPA have included "reliability" in their demands for a fix from VW. It remains to be seen what "reliability" will actually mean in the context of a settlement. I currently have an issue with the urea pump on my 2010 Touareg TDI (106,xxx miles). If they bump up the amount of fluid that has to be used for compliance, I would expect more problems with that system for example.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

JitteryJoe said:


> How can one even answer those questions without details on the proposed "Fix"? I would under no circumstances release my claims against VW unless the fix was 100% warrantied for a long time. It's funny that that is never mentioned. The lower performance and fuel economy are important issues but what about reliability?





GoFaster said:


> At this point, the fix that you mentioned (different LNT + reprogramming) is speculative, because nothing has been announced.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that LNT technology could reduce emissions by a factor of 15 - 35 (allowing the oft-quoted "40 times" as a momentary transgression) without repercussions. No one else has been able to do it. Every other vehicle in the european market that uses a LNT has also been found to have high real-world NOx emissions. There is no magic here.
> 
> ...


CARB and EPA have leaked that they my be leaning toward the creation of a NOx credits system. This would allow the older cars to remain on the road, with VW paying for the NOx emissions. Minimal changes to the vehicles would be needed. Who knows, eventually this would probably help mitigate the growing stigma against VW diesel vehicles. This would also allow the EPA to create ready flow of unregulated cash to the agency to fund their green car initiatives. 

I for one am very concerned about this scheme as this would eventually be rolled into all diesel equipped vehicles. A big pile of not good. The EPA and CARB getting the most out of a bad situation.


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

kickercoach said:


> CARB and EPA have leaked that they my be leaning toward the creation of a NOx credits system. This would allow the older cars to remain on the road, with VW paying for the NOx emissions. Minimal changes to the vehicles would be needed. Who knows, eventually this would probably help mitigate the growing stigma against VW diesel vehicles. This would also allow the EPA to create ready flow of unregulated cash to the agency to fund their green car initiatives.
> 
> I for one am very concerned about this scheme as this would eventually be rolled into all diesel equipped vehicles. A big pile of not good. The EPA and CARB getting the most out of a bad situation.


Perhaps this is why the FTC is going after VW on behalf of owner compensation? Either way, I agree with you... definitely concerned. Glad that the FTC voiced their opinion of deceptive practices by VW and have acknowledged the resulting depreciation hit. 



AZGolf said:


> Here's the press release from the FTC itself:
> 
> https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/pre...olkswagen-deceived-consumers-its-clean-diesel


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

AJB said:


> Another question, if they do buy back cars at FMV + 20%, how will they know how many miles were on my car on sept 1st? What if I just came back from a trip that added 3000 miles to my car? I'd have to double check but my wife drives about 25k per year, so there is probably 10k on the car since 9/1/15.


I was thinking the same thing. I forced myself to pay for an oil change at the dealer just after the scandal broke, so they'd have a record of the mileage on file... Otherwise I don't know what they'd do... guestimate?


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

I would think they would just base it on the "average" amount of miles the car should have and say the Extra 20% is there is case you have a super low mile TDI (the exact opposite of what these cars are for ). Or perhaps allow you to dispute the valuation if you do in fact have a low mileage car.

That's how they determine car value here in KY (we pay ad valorem tax each year :banghead. My car is super high mileage and I forgot to tell them that so my car is being taxed at $12K value even though it's really only worth about $10K :thumbdown:


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

GoFaster said:


> At this point, the fix that you mentioned (different LNT + reprogramming) is speculative, because nothing has been announced.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that LNT technology could reduce emissions by a factor of 15 - 35 (allowing the oft-quoted "40 times" as a momentary transgression) without repercussions. No one else has been able to do it. Every other vehicle in the european market that uses a LNT has also been found to have high real-world NOx emissions. There is no magic here.
> 
> ...


Well, I agree with what you wrote. I think the few years since gen 1 were designed might have given a better LNT (more surface area per unit of weight). And remember, the bar is low. Emissions don't have to come down 40x. It just has to pass the test without cheating and be reliable for the specified lifetime. I agree that the emissions warranty should be unlimited.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> Here's the press release from the FTC itself:
> 
> https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/pre...olkswagen-deceived-consumers-its-clean-diesel


and THIS will be the nail in the coffin for VW in the USA

they will just declare BK, and walk away from a small niche market they have never had good penetration in.

:facepalm:

:thumbdown: to the US legal system


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

You'reDrunk said:


> :thumbdown: to the US legal system


So the FTC is suing VW on behalf of the people who are already suing VW on their own behalf? 

How does that work?


And it technically wasn't false advertisement. Cheating on emissions not withstanding, they are clean compared to their diesel predecessors.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> So the FTC is suing VW on behalf of the people who are already suing VW on their own behalf?
> 
> How does that work?


each branch has powers, and can sue for reasons under their specific charter.

:screwy:

I'm not defending what VW did, but how is suing them from every angle going to fix this??? GM did it and the GOV't did sue at all. 

worse, the EPA F'd up badly in several events, and they were never sued by any other agency.......how about the big banks???? they got $$, and then paid fines. :screwy:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

You'reDrunk said:


> each branch has powers, and can sue for reasons under their specific charter.
> 
> :screwy:
> 
> ...


That's what bothers me the most about this. GM did far worse, and didn't even catch half of the flack VW is. The best part is despite killing all those people; despite seriously injuring even more people, GM hasn't suffered. The fines were a slap on the wrist, and their company hasn't suffered. And while all of this was still unknown to the general public, they took a huge taxpayer funded bailout. 

I'm right there with you. What VW did was bad, but the level of heat being thrown their way is ridiculous. GM killed people and they paid fines. VW lied about how much NOx their diesel cars emit, and they're being slammed from every possible angle.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> That's what bothers me the most about this. GM did far worse, and didn't even catch half of the flack VW is. The best part is despite killing all those people; despite seriously injuring even more people, GM hasn't suffered. The fines were a slap on the wrist, and their company hasn't suffered. And while all of this was still unknown to the general public, they took a huge taxpayer funded bailout.
> 
> I'm right there with you. What VW did was bad, but the level of heat being thrown their way is ridiculous. GM killed people and they paid fines. VW lied about how much NOx their diesel cars emit, and they're being slammed from every possible angle.


I am personally affected by this mess, I own the MOST expensive VW made in this debacle. But even I realize the bottom line issue isn't so frightening. 

look, VW built 700K modern cars with emission's systems from the 1990's and sold them as new....then got caught. again, this number is less than 0.1% of ALL registered vehicles in the USA.

Fine VW, and let the cars attrition thorough normal use. No new vehicles can be sold until proven they can pass current emissions.

DONE. why is this so hard????? :facepalm:


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

GM did not intentionally design a system that ran in illegal emission mode except when being tested.
GM sold questionable parts then did not react ethically when there were higher than normal failures in use.
A dozen or so crashes that were obviously caused by questionable part to 100,000s of vehicles with intentionally designed to be illegal emissions?
Quit trying to play down what VW did by bringing up the GM ignition thing.
They are two very different situations.
Apples and lamas. 
Please just stop.
Being very defensive and lashing out in desperation are the last actions of a cornered animal.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

GoHomeBroke said:


> And it technically wasn't false advertisement. Cheating on emissions not withstanding, they are clean compared to their diesel predecessors.


dunno, seems straight forward. plus throw in a bunch of consumer filing ftc complaint forms and you got a hot mess. > https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/media-resources/truth-advertising


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

Will people feel better once they sue for pain and suffering?


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

BRealistic said:


> GM did not intentionally design a system that ran in illegal emission mode except when being tested.
> GM sold questionable parts then did not react ethically when there were higher than normal failures in use.
> A dozen or so crashes that were obviously caused by questionable part to 100,000s of vehicles with intentionally designed to be illegal emissions?
> *Quit trying to play down what VW did by bringing up the GM ignition thing.
> ...


you're right. 

GM actively covered up something that KILLED over 130 people. 

VWs emission issues are a drop in the bucket from a health perspective. again, *LESS THAN 0.1% OF ALL CURRENTLY REGISTERED VEHICLES IN THE US.*


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

rich! said:


> dunno, seems straight forward.


The only tie in to 'clean diesel' I've seen in an advert was that annoying old lady holding a scarf to the tailpipe and not getting soot on it (the outtakes, however, show her writhing on the floor, face blue, after being that close to the offending tailpipe). The only other selling point was the fuel economy. 

This fiasco is going to buy a lot of lawyers new boats :laugh:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> The only tie in to 'clean diesel' I've seen in an advert was that annoying old lady holding a scarf to the tailpipe and not getting soot on it (the outtakes, however, show her writhing on the floor, face blue, after being that close to the offending tailpipe). The only other selling point was the fuel economy.
> 
> *This fiasco is going to buy a lot of lawyers new boats *:laugh:


and THIS is what pisses me off the most.

all of those in this forum who think they are going to get some value from joining the CAS or expect to "make out" on this are only fueling the fires for the lawyers who will be the *ONLY* winners in this mess.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

BRealistic said:


> GM did not intentionally design a system that ran in illegal emission mode except when being tested.
> GM sold questionable parts then did not react ethically when there were higher than normal failures in use.
> A dozen or so crashes that were obviously caused by questionable part to 100,000s of vehicles with intentionally designed to be illegal emissions?
> Quit trying to play down what VW did by bringing up the GM ignition thing.
> ...


GM's ignition switch being unintentional doesn't lessen the severity of what happened. So quit trying to act like it does.

A dozen or so crashes? So 124 people were killed and 250+ more were injured in a just a dozen or so crashes? Sure, if they were mexicans, or clowns, or mexican clowns. 

We're not downplaying what VW did, or did you miss this:


GoHomeBroke said:


> What VW did was bad





You'reDrunk said:


> I'm not defending what VW did


We're saying that what VW did isn't bad enough to warrant the heat being thrown their way. GM killed people, and they didn't get half of the **** VW is getting. That's what we're saying. We're saying that the **** VW is getting is disproportionate to their actions.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> GM's ignition switch being unintentional doesn't lessen the severity of what happened. So quite trying to act like it does.
> 
> A dozen or so crashes? So 124 people were killed and 250+ more were injured in a just a dozen or so crashes? Sure, if they were mexicans, or clowns, or mexican clowns.
> 
> ...


thank you :thumbup: this is what I'm trying to say.

drops mic


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

I do not understand the mentality that no laws matter except laws pertaining to specific deaths. America probably has over a million laws in the US at this point. I did a search and the bottom line is that nobody really knows, although I found an article that states 40,627 new laws went into effect Jan 1, 2010 alone. The number of murder and wrongful death laws is probably only a teeny, tiny number, but according to LSnLV or YoureDrunk or whatever, no laws are valid unless they punish wrongful death.

Hey YoureDrunk, why don't you try to get out of your next speeding ticket by arguing that nobody died? Point out that 130 people died from GM ignition failures, and that unless you see better punishment of GM, you refuse to accept any penalty for speeding since you didn't kill anyone. See how that goes for you.


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

What do GM's ignition switches have to do with VW cheating EPA testing?


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> I do not understand the mentality that no laws matter except laws pertaining to specific deaths. America probably has over a million laws in the US at this point. I did a search and the bottom line is that nobody really knows, although I found an article that states 40,627 new laws went into effect Jan 1, 2010 alone. The number of murder and wrongful death laws is probably only a teeny, tiny number, but according to LSnLV or YoureDrunk or whatever, no laws are valid unless they punish wrongful death.
> 
> Hey YoureDrunk, why don't you try to get out of your next speeding ticket by arguing that nobody died? Point out that 130 people died from GM ignition failures, and that unless you see better punishment of GM, you refuse to accept any penalty for speeding since you didn't kill anyone. See how that goes for you.


again. 

I'm not arguing that there should be no punishment, YES they broke the law.

the issue is this whole thing (and all the green BS laws) are way over the top. we need to do what we can to save the planet, and stop all crime. and since this is corporate crime the ONLY way to really punish them is with large costly fines. good. we ALL agree on that.

but bringing in ALL the lawyers and multiple Gov't agencies won't fix the issue.

FINE THEM, FINE THEM BIG. 

MOVE THE F' ON!!!!

these few cars are NOT worth spending millions of my tax dollars fighting a lost battle.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

PlatinumGLS said:


> What do GM's ignition switches have to do with VW cheating EPA testing?


It's being used as a base model to determine proper amount of punishment vs severity of transgression. If we use GM's ignition switch as a base for severity of transgression, and we follow suit with using the punishment levied against them as being proper, we're left with the conclusion that:

Being responsible for the deaths of 124 people, the serious injuries of 250+ more = $900 million 


So when VW is facing hundreds of billions as punishment for lying about how much NOx their cars emit, we're left with the conclusion that the punishment they face is not proportionate to their transgression. When you consider the fact that GM's issue is far more severe than VW's (Note: this is not downplaying what VW did. This is acknowledging what VW did as not being the worst thing a car company has done recently.)


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

Autoline's latest discussion on "dieselgate". My favorite suggestion to VW is to certify the 2016 diesels that are sitting there then offer them as an equal trade to any owners impacted.


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

GoHomeBroke said:


> It's being used as a base model to determine proper amount of punishment vs severity of transgression. If we use GM's ignition switch as a base for severity of transgression, and we follow suit with using the punishment levied against them as being proper, we're left with the conclusion that:
> 
> Being responsible for the deaths of 124 people, the serious injuries of 250+ more = $900 million
> 
> So when VW is facing hundreds of billions as punishment for lying about how much NOx their cars emit, we're left with the conclusion that the punishment they face is not proportionate to their transgression. When you consider the fact that GM's issue is far more severe than VW's (Note: this is not downplaying what VW did. This is acknowledging what VW did as not being the worst thing a car company has done recently.)


False equivalency.

That would be similar to a lawyer defending a client for dumping toxic chemicals into a lake and saying he wants the same punishment a drunk driver got. It doesn't make sense. That would be nuts. 

The GM case has noting to do with "dieselgate" other than they both involve car companies.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

PlatinumGLS said:


> False equivalency.
> 
> That would be similar to a lawyer defending a client for dumping toxic chemicals into a lake and saying he wants the same punishment a drunk driver got. It doesn't make sense.
> 
> The GM case has noting to do with "dieselgate" other than they both involve car companies.


Agree to disagree.


At least VW didn't accept billions of taxpayer dollars while killing their customers. :beer:


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

GoHomeBroke said:


> Agree to disagree.
> 
> At least VW didn't accept billions of taxpayer dollars while killing their customers. :beer:


Now you are bringing up the loans to GM, what does that have to do with "dieselgate"? 

How about Takata, should we discuss them too? How about Ford/Bridgestone? Toyota? No, because this has to do with VW cheating EMISSIONS. 

PS: Did you know Lower Saxony is the second largest shareholder of VW, the German state owns 20.3% of the company?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

PlatinumGLS said:


> That would be similar to a lawyer defending a client for dumping toxic chemicals into a lake and saying he wants the same punishment a drunk driver got. It doesn't make sense. That would be nuts.


OK, let's compare it apples to apples;

The largest clean air act fine ever was $100m civil penalty, $50m fine to prevent future violations, and payout of $200m greenhouse gas emission credits. That was levied against Hyundai/KIA for lying about fuel economy. something that consumers do care about.

Why didn't we riot over that one the way we are with VW?


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> GM's ignition switch being unintentional doesn't lessen the severity of what happened. So quit trying to act like it does.
> .


It definitely affects the legal situation.
An insignificant number of part failures is expected.
From a legal standpoint- *it's all gray areas* when it comes to "when should a failure percentage become a major issue and a serious safety concern?"

In contrast- VW clearly broke well defined laws (and openly admitted it).
No gray areas.

How about we keep this thread about the VW diesel emission situation?
I don't want to stat down that "but look what they did!" path again- like has happened IDK how may times in this thread and others.

"I know I stole that money, but OJ got off for murder!"


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

Silly_me said:


> OK, let's compare it apples to apples;
> 
> The largest clean air act fine ever was $100m civil penalty, $50m fine to prevent future violations, and payout of $200m greenhouse gas emission credits. That was levied against Hyundai/KIA for lying about fuel economy. something that consumers do care about.
> 
> Why didn't we riot over that one the way we are with VW?


That would be a better comparison. However, the VW emissions cheating is considered to be magnitudes higher than Hundai/Kia, right?


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

GoHomeBroke said:


> Agree to disagree.
> 
> 
> At least VW didn't accept billions of taxpayer dollars while killing their customers. :beer:


I see my 13 year old taught you to argue. She'd be proud. :thumbup:


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> Agree to disagree.
> 
> 
> At least VW didn't accept billions of taxpayer dollars while killing their customers. :beer:



I love how people talk trash about the U.S. government's involvement in GM's financial issues, while ignoring the long history of (other) government backing for brands like.. VW. 

Back on topic.

What is the current situation now with the VW/US department lawsuits?


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

BRealistic said:


> What is the current situation now with the VW/US department lawsuits?


Same as everyone with traffic ticket, extension after extension after extension


----------



## VeeeDoubleU (May 27, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> OK, let's compare it apples to apples;
> 
> The largest clean air act fine ever was $100m civil penalty, $50m fine to prevent future violations, and payout of $200m greenhouse gas emission credits. That was levied against Hyundai/KIA for lying about fuel economy. something that consumers do care about.


I am the last person to support Hyundai/Kia I will say this. They handled that fiasco very well. Pay out the fines/penalty's, apologize to the consumer "sorry our calculator had a sticky button", hand out rebates to the customers for the amount of extra gas they would have used. bam, done- everyone has forgotten already. By VW drawing it out, and saying "your laws are hard to understand, so talk to our lawyers". Meanwhile TDI owners are getting hosed on resale and dealers are on the hook for cars they cant sell- making for some very upset folks ready to lawyer up themselves. And in light of this many consumers that may have considered a vw for purchase are now looking straight at different brands. Vw is digging itself into bigger grave and is over complicating the matter the longer they wait.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

BRealistic said:


> Back on topic.
> 
> What is the current situation now with the VW/US department lawsuits?


Everything is effectively on hold until April 21st now. That's the new date for VW's next appearance in court. There's nothing to say they can't announce a deal with CARB & EPA before then, but it's likely based on how VW has been dragging this out that they will use all the time available to them.


----------



## dcomiskey (Mar 13, 2002)

PlatinumGLS said:


> False equivalency.
> 
> That would be similar to a lawyer defending a client for dumping toxic chemicals into a lake and saying he wants the same punishment a drunk driver got. It doesn't make sense. That would be nuts.
> 
> The GM case has noting to do with "dieselgate" other than they both involve car companies.


Totally agree. It's a nonsense analogy. Never mind that the injuries to people as a result of the air pollution created by this fiasco is impossible to calculate.

That said, GM got away with a slap on the wrist. Further proof we have mass problems prosecuting powerful people and companies in the US. Many people SHOULD have gone to prison for life over what happened. As should the folks at VW responsible for this.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

VeeeDoubleU said:


> . By VW drawing it out, and saying "your laws are hard to understand, so talk to our lawyers". Meanwhile TDI owners are getting hosed on resale and dealers are on the hook for cars they cant sell- making for some very upset folks ready to lawyer up themselves. And in light of this many consumers that may have considered a vw for purchase are now looking straight at different brands. Vw is digging itself into bigger grave and is over complicating the matter the longer they wait.


I can only assume this situation if forcing VW to play U.S. politics.
The UAW/Chattooga plant thing showed how out of sync they are with the way politics and business work in the U.S., so they may be dragging their feet while tugging strings and trying to find backs to rub to garner political favor, and get some politicians on their side to push back against the fines and lawsuits.
I do hope they resolve it soon- for the benefit of VW owners and dealers.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

dcomiskey said:


> Totally agree. It's a nonsense analogy. Never mind that the injuries to people as a result of the air pollution created by this fiasco is impossible to calculate.
> 
> That said, GM got away with a slap on the wrist. Further proof we have mass problems prosecuting powerful people and companies in the US. *Many people SHOULD have gone to prison for life over what happened. As should the folks at VW responsible for this.*


In each case you can't point to the specific persons responsible, so how is that supposed to happen?

Also in each case the companies were/will be prosecuted according to the specific laws proven broken. The penalties of which served accordingly. Whether or not those penalties fit the crime is another matter. But the laws are as they are. Don't like it? This is why we vote. Vote law makers into place who will change laws according to your beliefs, assuming there are people fitting that mold.:beer:


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

dcomiskey said:


> Many people SHOULD have gone to prison for life over what happened. As should the folks at VW responsible for this.


You're out of your goddamn mind.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

PlatinumGLS said:


> Autoline's latest discussion on "dieselgate". My favorite suggestion to VW is to certify the 2016 diesels that are sitting there then offer them as an equal trade to any owners impacted.


Yup, that was my Option #2. My wife said that if VW did that she'd remain a loyal customer. And if what these guys are speculating is true, it would be a lot cheaper to do than face the $75B in fines, penalties, and loss of sales if they didn't.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

T5 Dave said:


> Yup, that was my Option #2. My wife said that if VW did that she'd remain a loyal customer. And if what these guys are speculating is true, it would be a lot cheaper to do than face the $75B in fines, penalties, and loss of sales if they didn't.



^^Ding ding ding - This is what my wife would want as well - give me a '15 or a '16 TDI SEL GSW thats been sitting for months, turn up the AdBlue duty cycle and let us drive (that is - assuming they can't fix the Gen 1 cars and want them off the road)

Otherwise just throw us a few bucks and let us drive as is.


----------



## Astronaut3000 (Sep 9, 2002)

PlatinumGLS said:


> Autoline's latest discussion on "dieselgate". My favorite suggestion to VW is to certify the 2016 diesels that are sitting there then offer them as an equal trade to any owners impacted.


Not going to happen. PR guy said it himself - "I've actually told them this, and they don't see it"
I would love for that to happen, though. I'd sell and get a 1G Insight or a second Volt, bank the rest. Adios, VW. :wave:

Edit for the gem I heard on NPR this morning:
According to the lawsuit, VW marketers studied potential diesel customers and determined that they "rationalize themselves out of their aspirations and justify buying lesser cars under the guise of being responsible."
Not really the case for myself, but ouch.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

*WSJ scribes thinking VW about VW pull out...*



You'reDrunk said:


> and THIS will be the nail in the coffin for VW in the USA
> 
> they will just declare BK, and walk away from a small niche market they have never had good penetration in.
> 
> ...


More Reasons for Volkswagen to Flee US Market

By Douglas A. McIntyre	March 30, 2016 6:57 am EDT 

Fines, lawsuits and other potential multi-billion-dollar risks continue to pile up for Volkswagen’s American operation. Apparently, the German car company gave some thought to abandoning much of the U.S. market. Some of VW’s dealers went to the manufacturer’s headquarters, at about the same time it dumped it U.S. President Michael Horn, to express worries that likely included whether VW would leave them adrift.

In exchange for all the aggravation and huge risks, VW continues to defend an American market share that has dropped to little better than 1%.

VW’s senior management has to continue to examine the financial reasons to defend it tiny U.S. sales. The latest financial burden added to VW’s American problems is a suit filed by the Federal Trade Commission, regarding false advertising about the features of its clean diesel engines. Billions of dollars in penalties, suits from buyers and more federal sanctions seem to increase VW’s American liabilities by the month.

For VW to dump the U.S. market, it would have to pay huge penalties to its dealers, who have spent years marketing VW products. Most have built showrooms to market the poor-selling cars. The dealers also have begged VW to add more models to what is currently a small lineup, which makes the U.S. operation far less than competitive.

The liability math for exiting the United States and adding to its dollar cost has to continue to be part of Volkwagen’s financial calculations. Defending a tiny American market share, for what?

By Douglas A. McIntyre


Read more: More Reasons for Volkswagen to Flee US Market - 24/7 Wall St. 

http://247wallst.com/autos/2016/03/30/more-reasons-for-volkswagen-to-flee-us-market/


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

Astronaut3000 said:


> Not going to happen. PR guy said it himself - "I've actually told them this, and they don't see it"
> I would love for that to happen, though. I'd sell and get a 1G Insight or a second Volt, bank the rest. Adios, VW. :wave:
> 
> Edit for the gem I heard on NPR this morning:
> ...


They know me so well...... hence why I just got the new R instead of the focus RS :laugh:


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

GoHomeBroke said:


> Agree to disagree.
> 
> 
> At least VW didn't accept billions of taxpayer dollars while killing their customers. :beer:


Let us review. 

The failure of the ignition switch disabled a "supplemental restraint" system. A quick review of the cases shows that in a significant number of the cases, the occupant was not wearing the PRIMARY RESTRAINT. Primary restraint = seatbelts.

The supplemental system was/is never intended to work with out the primary restraint system. Regardless a number of the occupants killed were under the influence, wildly exceeding the posted speed limits, etc..etc..etc... So that 13X number is less than meaningful. The number of deaths falls to a level near to statistical noise when the cases of dubious merit are thrown out. 

GM will win a number of cases for the above listed reasons, as they have already won. 



I would argue GM and VW are both victims of governmental over reach. The penalties do not/will not fit the crimes.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Astronaut3000 said:


> Not going to happen. PR guy said it himself - "I've actually told them this, and they don't see it"
> I would love for that to happen, though.


They have no clue that it would keep their customers loyal if they did. But they won't, so we won't. Still, it's a nice pipe dream.


Astronaut3000 said:


> Edit for the gem I heard on NPR this morning:
> According to the lawsuit, VW marketers studied potential diesel customers and determined that they "rationalize themselves out of their aspirations and justify buying lesser cars under the guise of being responsible."
> Not really the case for myself, but ouch.


Actually, it fit rather nicely for my aspiration of buying the car with cash outright so I'd never have a car payment again. And it met my aspirations of lowering my carbon footprint until the Tesla 3 came out. And it met my aspirations of being *far *more reliable than my old cars ever were.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

kickercoach said:


> Let us review.
> 
> The failure of the ignition switch disabled a "supplemental restraint" system. A quick review of the cases shows that in a significant number of the cases, the occupant was not wearing the PRIMARY RESTRAINT. Primary restraint = seatbelts.
> 
> ...


And that's why companies are not quick publicly admit to a possible safery issue.
Once it's out there, everybody that's had something bad with said product present will blame the product even when the case se4ms complete bs BS at face value because:
1: It gives them somebody to blame besides themselves.
2: They are hoping for a settlement to make their case "go away".

2 works because juries do not seem to understand statistical noise and acceptable part failure percentages.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

T5 Dave said:


> Yup, that was my Option #2. My wife said that if VW did that she'd remain a loyal customer. And if what these guys are speculating is true, it would be a lot cheaper to do than face the $75B in fines, penalties, and loss of sales if they didn't.


In response to the Autoline video... toward the end they talked about just giving 400k new 2016 model cars and that that would be cheaper. But they would still face the fine in ADDITION to giving the cars away for free. The possible fines that might be imposed, to my knowledge are independent of the solution they propose and get approved.


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

AJB said:


> In response to the Autoline video... toward the end they talked about just giving 400k new 2016 model cars and that that would be cheaper. But they would still face the fine in ADDITION to giving the cars away for free. The possible fines that might be imposed, to my knowledge are independent of the solution they propose and get approved.


Although this is true, it would save the expense of getting the older vehicles up to compliance. It would also keep owners of these cars from suing VW as mentioned in the video. 

What VW doesn't seem to understand is, the longer they wait the worse it gets.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

AJB said:


> In response to the Autoline video... toward the end they talked about just giving 400k new 2016 model cars and that that would be cheaper. But they would still face the fine in ADDITION to giving the cars away for free. The possible fines that might be imposed, to my knowledge are independent of the solution they propose and get approved.


If I was CARB I'd be more interested in getting the air clean. If VW offered to take the LNT cars back and replace them with functioning SCR cars then I (as CARB) would be satisfied and, therefore, would not impose the fine because the situation was remedied. I would impose fines, however, if VW delayed beyond a certain time limit to replace all the LNT cars, i.e., the longer it takes to replace the cars the heftier the fines get. But I (as CARB) would give them some months to comply, say 12 to 18, before the fines are levied.

But that's me, and VW will most likely not want to do that because they feel 'picked on' by the nasty US conspiracy (that they cheated on in the first place)


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

PlatinumGLS said:


> That would be a better comparison. However, the VW emissions cheating is considered to be magnitudes higher than Hundai/Kia, right?


Even if it is, the numbers being thrown around would mean that what VW did is 30+ times in magnitude greater than Hyundai's lie. Keep in mind, I noted that Hyundai's fines were the largest ever for violation of the clean air act.

Sanity long since left the room if something as ridiculous as that occurs (seriously, look through environmental disasters and settlements/fines and it is shocking how much lunacy there is in this witch hunt. IMO murricans don't really care if a mountain of slurry clears out homes in podunk backwards TN, but we are especially offended here because we had the wool pulled over our eyes so effectively by a non-remorseful con artist  And *NO ONE* does that to the U.S.ofA! Especially if those people live in progressive upstanding neighborhoods! _rabble rabble rabble_)


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> Even if it is, the numbers being thrown around would mean that what VW did is 30+ times in magnitude greater than Hyundai's lie. Keep in mind, I noted that Hyundai's fines were the largest ever for violation of the clean air act.
> 
> Sanity long since left the room if something as ridiculous as that occurs (seriously, look through environmental disasters and settlements/fines and it is shocking how much lunacy there is in this witch hunt. IMO murricans don't really care if a mountain of slurry clears out homes in podunk backwards TN, but we are especially offended here because we had the wool pulled over our eyes so effectively by a non-remorseful con artist  And *NO ONE* does that to the U.S.ofA! Especially if those people live in progressive upstanding neighborhoods! _rabble rabble rabble_)


:thumbup:

#whitehonormatters


----------



## Astronaut3000 (Sep 9, 2002)

T5Dave


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

Regarding trading your LNT car for a 2016..how do you/they determine what a fair trade is? As in, I for example have a highline TDI...will I get pushed into a base model TDI? Or would you trade trim line for trim line? 
Really so many factors to consider!
But...If they were to give me a 2016 tdi highline...I could sell it and buy a D3 S8 outright  Total opposite of fuel economy, but wow they are nice


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Any discussion of buybacks, VW trading your non-compliant vehicle for a new compliant one, or anything of the sort is purely speculative.

The suggestion that it would be cheaper for VW to give you a compliant vehicle in straight trade for your old one was purely a suggestion by Autoline and has no basis in fact at this point.

Nothing is going to be announced until after that 21 April 2016 meeting with the judge ... and possibly nothing for some time after that.

So far, VW has done a fairly good job of the opposite of what they should be doing in order to get this scandal behind them.


----------



## LieutenantShinySides (May 4, 2007)

I don't think anyone was inferring that is was in fact happening but rather just another discussion about yet another possible outcome. To your point, everyone, including myself to some degree, kind of latches on to the newest story because we are tired of the complete lack of urgency to make it right. Ultimately, I'd just like to keep my wagon and move on.


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

PolishSasquatch said:


> Regarding trading your LNT car for a 2016..how do you/they determine what a fair trade is? As in, I for example have a highline TDI...will I get pushed into a base model TDI? Or would you trade trim line for trim line?
> Really so many factors to consider!
> But...If they were to give me a 2016 tdi highline...I could sell it and buy a D3 S8 outright  Total opposite of fuel economy, but wow they are nice


Yeah, right... I don't think VW made a TDI Cup edition in 2016 either. Golf R it is! :laugh:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

You'reDrunk said:


> #whitehonormatters


I knews you were a white supremacist!


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Volkswagen announces buyback of over 500,000 diesel vehicles*

This doesn't seem to make sense or the details are not correct but here is the first announcement. Probably an April Fools joke.



> In a surprise effort to avoid heavy penalties, Volkswagen has agreed to re-purchase vehicles that have been found to cheat emissions testing regulations.
> 
> The move comes nearly 7 months after Martin Winterkorn, the company's CEO, stepped down as a growing scandal over falsified emissions tests rocked the world's biggest automaker. *
> 
> ...


99.999% sure it is actually.


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

spockcat said:


> *Volkswagen announces buyback of over 500,000 diesel vehicles*
> 
> This doesn't seem to make sense or the details are not correct but here is the first announcement. Probably an April Fools joke.


release date of this article has me a little :sly:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

This one is probably a real one:

*
VW diesel recalls delayed in Europe on fuel-consumption checks, reports say*



> FRANKFURT -- Volkswagen's diesel recall is being delayed in Germany because the automaker's fix for rigged engines results in higher fuel consumption, reports said.
> 
> VW began recalling its Amarok pickup truck with emissions-cheating 2.0-liter diesel engines in January to make them compliant with type approval law. The recall was the first stage in a Europewide action to fix 8.5 million VW, Audi, Skoda and Seat models with engines altered to fool tests for harmful NOx emissions.
> 
> ...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

spockcat said:


> *Volkswagen announces buyback of over 500,000 diesel vehicles*
> 
> This doesn't seem to make sense or the details are not correct but here is the first announcement. Probably an April Fools joke.
> 
> 99.999% sure it is actually.


Gee really? With a web address of *4o62.clonezone.link* you think it might be a spam/spyware/virus website maybe?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> Gee really? With a web address of *4o62.clonezone.link* you think it might be a spam/spyware/virus website maybe?


That's why I don't just post the link. I post the text so others don't have to go to the link to read it if they suspect a problem.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

> The company has not yet released details to affected owners, but estimates there will be over 5 million USD allocated to fund the reimbursement effort.


So...$10 per vehicle? :laugh:


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> So...$10 per vehicle? :laugh:


Seems legit.


----------



## Ajlal24 (Mar 7, 2007)

In all reality, VW is going to get slapped with a hefty fine. The gov is going to agree to sweep these vehicles under the rug, as implementing some sort of buy back is going to bankrupt VW America. The only issue here is what occurs with the people that fight that they were sold unadvertised goods, and the class action suits. I think there will be some sort of software reflash that will optimize emissions and mileage with minimal hardware involved.

The US gov isn't going to ban VW from selling vehicles in this country, tax revenue is the coercing matter in that decision.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

oh to be a fly on the wall....

http://www.reviewjournal.com/busine...cs-meet-las-vegas-discuss-moves-improve-sales

*Volkswagen dealers, execs to meet in Las Vegas to discuss moves to improve sales*


Las Vegas Review Journal said:


> Hundreds of Volkswagen dealers from across the country will descend upon Las Vegas this week seeking some answers and help in rebuilding their sales following months of controversy over emissions cheating.
> 
> A closed meeting between dealers and Volkswagen executives is set for Saturday morning, a day after dealers hold an internal meeting at the Las Vegas Convention Center. The VW dealers are in town for the National Auto Dealers Association convention Thursday through Sunday. More than 90 percent of the 652 dealers nationwide are expected. In September, Volkswagen told its dealers to stop the sale of four-cylinder diesel engine vehicles after federal regulators accused the Germany-based automaker of falsifying emissions tests by using illegal software. About 600,000 vehicles on the road were affected.
> 
> ...


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Here is what went on:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-vows-to-redefine-tarnished-brand-in-u-s-1459620309



> By JOHN D. STOLL
> Updated April 2, 2016 7:01 p.m. ET
> 88 COMMENTS
> LAS VEGAS—Volkswagen AG’s management extended an olive branch to car dealers hit hard by the German auto giant’s emissions-testing scandal. Much of what dealers wanted to hear, however, went unsaid.
> ...


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

wsj said:


> willing to chase volume at the expense of exclusivity.


So all this time the low sales volume was a strategic attempt of being an exclusive brand. It all makes so much sense now!


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> So all this time the low sales volume was a strategic attempt of being an exclusive brand. It all makes so much sense now!


Yeah, hard to imagine we'd be trying to keep up with Volvo . . . . .


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> So all this time the low sales volume was a strategic attempt of being an exclusive brand. It all makes so much sense now!


to be fair I think they were only saying that to quell the rumors about going back "upmarket". I think that would've been a mistake had that happened. Keep the Jetta and Passat where they are, market wise (but update the product, _stat_!) and the same with the CUVs, but keep the Golf, any CC replacement and perhaps their top CUV more quirky/slightly upmarket.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

A sincere **** you to VW. My car's AC gave out and now I'm out nearly a grand to repair a car I should have been rid of months ago. But since they are dragging their feet (it could be months before I have any other remedy), and I own a black car in SoCal, I had little choice here. I wish I could give that POS car a viking funeral in the middle of the service department.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> A sincere **** you to VW. My car's AC gave out and now I'm out nearly a grand to repair a car I should have been rid of months ago. But since they are dragging their feet (it could be months before I have any other remedy), and I own a black car in SoCal, I had little choice here. I wish I could give that POS car a viking funeral in the middle of the service department.


How many miles? I'm bracing for that moment when that occurs.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

DUBPL8 said:


> How many miles? I'm bracing for that moment when that occurs.


81k


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

What I find frustrating is the lack of news and updates. I just checked the VW website and the latest updated they list is from January 12. WTF.

https://www.vwdieselinfo.com/updates/statement-by-volkswagen-group-of-america-3/


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> A sincere **** you to VW. My car's AC gave out and now I'm out nearly a grand to repair a car I should have been rid of months ago. But since they are dragging their feet (it could be months before I have any other remedy), and I own a black car in SoCal, I had little choice here. I wish I could give that POS car a viking funeral in the middle of the service department.


What gave out on the AC system? Compressor? A decent Indy shop could probably fix it for less than $1000 if it's something simple or a leak. It's rare that the AC compressor or other big item would fail.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> 81k


Good God.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Uberhare said:


> What gave out on the AC system? Compressor? A decent Indy shop could probably fix it for less than $1000 if it's something simple or a leak. It's rare that the AC compressor or other big item would fail.


They say compressor, which probably means the capacity valve. It's a <$100 part, but the system has to be evac'd to change it, the recharged. I have the $500 hush money card, so the time and effort to run around and fix it elsewhere isn't going to be worth my time. I'm more angry about the principle of spending any money on this goddamned car, especially for something that should not be failing at 81k.

edit: I was planning on using the hush money card to pay the lease turn-in fee on my wife's car. I will probably try to end-run that by taking her car to carmax since the lease residual value is so low.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> They say compressor, which probably means the capacity valve. It's a <$100 part, but the system has to be evac'd to change it, the recharged. I have the $500 hush money card, so the time and effort to run around and fix it elsewhere isn't going to be worth my time. I'm more angry about the principle of spending any money on this goddamned car, especially for something that should not be failing at 81k.
> 
> edit: I was planning on using the hush money card to pay the lease turn-in fee on my wife's car. I will probably try to end-run that by taking her car to carmax since the lease residual value is so low.


$500 will buy a lot of ANFO to "fix" the car.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> They say compressor, which probably means the capacity valve. It's a <$100 part, but the system has to be evac'd to change it, the recharged. I have the $500 hush money card, so the time and effort to run around and fix it elsewhere isn't going to be worth my time. I'm more angry about the principle of spending any money on this goddamned car, especially for something that should not be failing at 81k.
> 
> edit: I was planning on using the hush money card to pay the lease turn-in fee on my wife's car. I will probably try to end-run that by taking her car to carmax since the *lease residual value is so low.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> but it's a closed end lease???? who cares what the residual is?


----------



## Chesed (Jan 21, 2004)

You'reDrunk said:


> but it's a closed end lease???? who cares what the residual is?


I believe he's saying that the residual is low enough that going through Carmax ("buying" it out at the end of the lease, then "selling" it to them) is cheaper than turning it in and paying the lease-end turn-in fees.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

You'reDrunk said:


> but it's a closed end lease???? who cares what the residual is?


Yes - the car is worth more than the residual. So if I sell it to carmax, hopefully I'll wind up with a little money in my pocket instead of walking away after paying a fee.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Yes - the car is worth more than the residual. So if I sell it to carmax, hopefully I'll wind up with a little money in my pocket instead of walking away after paying a fee.


:thumbup:


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> A sincere **** you to VW. My car's AC gave out and now I'm out nearly a grand to repair a car I should have been rid of months ago. But since they are dragging their feet (it could be months before I have any other remedy), and I own a black car in SoCal, I had little choice here. I wish I could give that POS car a viking funeral in the middle of the service department.


Thank god for that owner credit package!


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

phospher5 said:


> Thank god for that owner credit package!


Yeah, it covered half. So I got to spend more money on a car I hate and can't get rid of. 

I guess on the upside, I didn't realize how bad it had become until I drove it home today - night and day difference. The AC vents blow ice cold now, just in time for a heat wave.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Uberhare said:


> $500 will buy a lot of ANFO to "fix" the car.


Trust me, if I didn't have a good job and a clean record, this would be on the table.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Uberhare said:


> What I find frustrating is the lack of news and updates. I just checked the VW website and the latest updated they list is from January 12. WTF.
> 
> https://www.vwdieselinfo.com/updates/statement-by-volkswagen-group-of-america-3/


That is really pathetic. :facepalm:



renegadeofpunk03 said:


> They say compressor, which probably means the capacity valve. It's a <$100 part, but the system has to be evac'd to change it, the recharged. I have the $500 hush money card, so the time and effort to run around and fix it elsewhere isn't going to be worth my time. I'm more angry about the principle of spending any money on this goddamned car, especially for something that should not be failing at 81k.
> 
> edit: I was planning on using the hush money card to pay the lease turn-in fee on my wife's car. I will probably try to end-run that by taking her car to carmax since the lease residual value is so low.


I assume you are in a class-action? Not that it helps your situation, but in the end, it could.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW not alone in defending excessive NOx output from diesels in Europe*



> Volkswagen Group isn't the only automaker having to explain excessive nitrogen oxide emissions from its models, especially in Europe, where even vehicles that have been certified as compliant with new Euro 6 standards produce seven times more NOx than allowed when on the road, according to the International Council on Clean Transportation. Vicente Franco, who is a senior researcher at ICCT, the nonprofit group that helped expose VW's cheating on emissions tests last year, shared his views on the topic with Automotive News Europe during a phone interview last month.
> *
> Since the Volkswagen Group emissions cheating scandal was revealed has there been any evidence others are guilty of this kind of fraud?
> *
> ...


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

What does the car being black and in SoCal have to do with it? I've had black cars in the south and drove with the windows down to keep from wearing on the A/C.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> I assume you are in a class-action? Not that it helps your situation, but in the end, it could.


No, I haven't signed up for anything. I am trying to be patient with this whole thing, taking a wait-and-see approach with VW's response. That is quickly proving to be the wrong strategy. At some point I may be forced to go that route. I was really hoping they would respond in such a way that I didn't have to become "part of the problem" with our legal system.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

GoHomeBroke said:


> What does the car being black and in SoCal have to do with it? I've had black cars in the south and drove with the windows down to keep from wearing on the A/C.


:sly: I paid nearly $30K for a car, one of the reasons was so I could be comfortable. Been there, done that, worked my ass off to make enough money so I don't have to go there again.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> :sly: I paid nearly $30K for a car, one of the reasons was so I could be comfortable. Been there, done that, worked my ass off to make enough money so I don't have to go there again.


Yeah, it's an inconvenience. But without this TDI scandal, you would have paid all of it out of pocket. Technically, it helped you pay for an unexpected expenditure. 

I get it, it shouldn't fail so early. But you're reacting to it as if cars never have unexpected failures like this. Newsflash: **** happens. Parts sometimes fail before they should. Grow the **** up and realize without this TDI crap, you would've been paying for the entire thing with your own money.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> No, I haven't signed up for anything. I am trying to be patient with this whole thing, taking a wait-and-see approach with VW's response. That is quickly proving to be the wrong strategy. At some point I may be forced to go that route. I was really hoping they would respond in such a way that I didn't have to become "part of the problem" with our legal system.


I wouldn't exactly wait any longer, if its still possible to get in. You can always pull out.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

GoHomeBroke said:


> Yeah, it's an inconvenience. But without this TDI scandal, you would have paid all of it out of pocket. Technically, it helped you pay for an unexpected expenditure.
> 
> I get it, it shouldn't fail so early. But you're reacting to it as if cars never have unexpected failures like this. Newsflash: **** happens. Parts sometimes fail before they should. Grow the **** up and realize without this TDI crap, you would've been paying for the entire thing with your own money.


As earlier covered in this thread, I was planning to sell it at the end of last year. It wouldn't have been my problem in that case. But since this scandal broke, the car has lost several thousand dollars in value and I don't want to take that hit.

I'm not upset about the expense, I'm upset that I had to pay it because I'm stuck with this car.


----------



## vwwtchr (Dec 23, 2005)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> No, I haven't signed up for anything. I am trying to be patient with this whole thing, taking a wait-and-see approach with VW's response. That is quickly proving to be the wrong strategy. At some point I may be forced to go that route. I was really hoping they would respond in such a way that I didn't have to become "part of the problem" with our legal system.


Part of the problem? This case is exactly why class action suits exist.

You think everyone could afford to sue individually here? Not everyone would have enough damages to even get a lawyer to take it on contingency. What would they do then?


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

vwwtchr said:


> Part of the problem? This case is exactly why class action suits exist.
> 
> You think everyone could afford to sue individually here? Not everyone would have enough damages to even get a lawyer to take it on contingency. What would they do then?


That's the thing about class action suits - unless you specifically opt out, you are a part of the class if you own a vehicle that falls under the scope of the suit. So either way, I guess I'm a part of the suit.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> As earlier covered in this thread, I was planning to sell it at the end of last year. It wouldn't have been my problem in that case. But since this scandal broke, the car has lost several thousand dollars in value and I don't want to take that hit.
> 
> I'm not upset about the expense, I'm upset that I had to pay it because I'm stuck with this car.


Hey look, another person who says the car lost value. 

A car with a bad AC at 80k probably has other problems, too. At least thats how I, as a buyer, would look at it.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> Hey look, another person who says the car lost value.
> 
> A car with a bad AC at 80k probably has other problems, too. At least thats how I, as a buyer, would look at it.


Since I was looking at selling it, I looked up the value in August, it was about $13k. Now, it's less than $10k. So yes, it has lost value. 

And no, it has no other issues. The AC worked until about a week ago.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Since I was looking at selling it, I looked up the value in August, it was about $13k. Now, it's less than $10k. So yes, it has lost value.
> And no, it has no other issues. The AC worked until about a week ago.


Third party values are not what people are paying. Third party values sell business, not true values on a car. 

You didn't try to sell it then and you haven't tried to sell it now. :roll eyes:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> Third party values are not what people are paying. Third party values sell business, not true values on a car.
> 
> You didn't try to sell it then and you haven't tried to sell it now. :roll eyes:


Are you honestly trying to claim that there has been no loss of resale value, and claiming so by a ridiculous claim that KBB is "not true values?"


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> Are you honestly trying to claim that there has been no loss of resale value, and claiming so by a ridiculous claim that KBB is "not true values?"


What I am saying is that people are claiming to have lost a bunch of money on their cars while never trying to sell them. Trade in will always be less. 

And KBB is a website designed to draw traffic to it to sell advertisement. Their values are also typically always low.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> Third party values are not what people are paying. Third party values sell business, not true values on a car.


lol ok, tell that to any dealer.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> As earlier covered in this thread, I was planning to sell it at the end of last year. It wouldn't have been my problem in that case. But since this scandal broke, the car has lost several thousand dollars in value and I don't want to take that hit.
> 
> I'm not upset about the expense, I'm upset that I had to pay it because I'm stuck with this car.





> It wouldn't have been my problem in that case.





> I'm upset that I had to pay it because I'm stuck with this car.


Oh, boohoo. A series of circumstances beyond my control caused me to be stuck with a car I planned to sell and I had to pay to fix it. Welcome to life. A game where your plans don't matter, and everything can go wrong in an instant. You can rant and bitch about it all day, and I'm sure you'd find a sympathetic ear or two. But that's all this amounts to. Bitching and complaining. 

Due to reasons beyond your control, you're stuck with the damn thing. And it broke. That sucks. But, wait, what's this? You were given some money for your trouble? Not a lot, I agree. But it allowed you to pay for the thing that broke? Well. I'll be damned. To use an old religious saying: God never closes a door without opening a window.

You never would've gotten that money if you weren't stuck with the car. Ipso facto, VW's scandal kept you from paying out of pocket when the AC broke. So, what's the problem here?


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

aj4066 said:


> What I am saying is that people are claiming to have lost a bunch of money on their cars while never trying to sell them. Trade in will always be less.
> 
> And KBB is a website designed to draw traffic to it to sell advertisement. Their values are also typically always low.


i mentioned this earlier in the thread but i sold my '13 manual jsw tdi for 20k just over a year ago. pretty much right what kbb said it would sell for private party - which is how i sold it.
that same car now is worth something like 12-13k (private party) according to kbb. one year later.

im sure some of that is due to the refresh having come out in the meantime, but likely not all of that 7-8k drop in value.



GoHomeBroke said:


> Due to reasons beyond your control, *you're stuck with the damn thing*.
> 
> Ipso facto, VW's scandal kept you from paying out of pocket when the AC broke.* So, what's the problem here?*


:laugh: really?


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Dealers buy low and sell high, always. 

NADA (National Auto Dealers Association) is what dealers use on their end.


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

8+ months
281 Pages
Zero Resolutions

Good job VW


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

aj4066 said:


> What I am saying is that people are claiming to have lost a bunch of money on their cars while never trying to sell them. Trade in will always be less.
> 
> And KBB is a website designed to draw traffic to it to sell advertisement. Their values are also typically always low.


give up.

I tried this argument pages ago.


:facepalm:


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

if they wait long enough... maybe it blows over! 

cheaper than doing something, anyway :laugh:


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Wait a minute, was it this thread where i read that somebody was planning on selling their leased car to CarMax and make money on it?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

I'm simply surprised at the number of people in this thread that had planned to sell their TDIs at the end of 2015, even those in a lease. It's like the spidey sense wasn't quite strong enough to convince them to sell pre-scandal, back when they checked the prices in order to plan for their upcoming end of year sale.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> Dealers buy low and sell high, always.
> 
> NADA (National Auto Dealers Association) is what dealers use on their end.


NADA is where my numbers came from.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

BRealistic said:


> Wait a minute, was it this thread where i read that somebody was planning on selling their leased car to CarMax and make money on it?


that was me. I have two VW's because i'm a glutton for punishment :laugh:

Car 1: Golf TDI, I own it.
Car 2: Beetle, my wife's car, is a lease that is ending next month. Lease discussion was because up until yesterday, my plan was to pay the lease termination fee with the goodwill card.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> NADA is where my numbers came from.


But (the key word) you've never tried to sell it yourself?


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

aj4066 said:


> But (the key word) you've never tried to sell it yourself?



Regardless, VW has taken a write downs at both their North American and European financial divisions because of the loss in vehicle residuals out on lease. So, while some may think the values have not gone down, VW realizes they have and was/is forced to deal with it. They also realize that the loss in value will be over an extended period.

One might also note that there is a small group of diesel diehards out there that recognize good (functional, my opinion) value, and have to have VW diesels at any price. So, not saying there might be some suckers out there willing to pay over NADA or KBB for a VW diesel.

The problem with this is that the valuations utilized by banks and every lending institution out there are set by KBB or NADA. So you can argue all you want, NADA, KBB, and the banks set the values. 

VW gets it, you-all should too.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

Still waiting ever patiently for a buyback.

Time to put the car back to stock then, hard for me to enjoy the car with the spectre of "Dieselgate" still looming :facepalm:


----------



## FuelInMyVeins (Feb 8, 2012)

BRealistic said:


> Wait a minute, was it this thread where i read that somebody was planning on selling their leased car to CarMax and make money on it?


Yeah, it was posted on last page.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

More than 2 weeks to go but there is already a negative spin on the talks.


*
U.S., VW may not reach emissions deal by April 21, EPA chief says*



> WASHINGTON -- The top U.S. environmental official expressed uncertainty on Tuesday about whether the Obama administration and Volkswagen AG will meet an April 21 court deadline to come up with a plan to address excess emissions from 580,000 diesel vehicles sold in the country.
> 
> EPA Administrator Gina McCarthy told reporters that the two sides were in "really robust" ongoing talks but said she did not know if they would agree to a deal by April 21. She declined to say if the administration would accept a partial fix of the polluting vehicles or if it would insist that Volkswagen offer to buy them all back.
> 
> ...


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

aj4066 said:


> What I am saying is that people are claiming to have lost a bunch of money on their cars while never trying to sell them.


That's just how people are though, it's an emotional response and it takes over. Back in 2007 when the housing market crashed hard I just remember people saying "my house is worth nothing, I'm going to stop making payments and let the bank take it". I bit my tongue because telling people the market value of their house is irrelevant if they weren't trying to sell it just would open up arguments. You can make the discussion about any product and if the perceived value goes down people freak out, we're a prideful lot I suppose. It's a punch right in the ego.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

VW is going to drag this out as long as they can. They have decided, for whatever reason, that they don't benefit from a fast resolution. So we're all just gonna have to keep sitting on our hands.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

GoHomePossum said:


> VW is going to drag this out as long as they can. They have decided, for whatever reason, that they don't benefit from a fast resolution. So we're all just gonna have to keep sitting on our hands.


Can we at least wash them? My thumb is starting to smell funny.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

spockcat said:


> More than 2 weeks to go but there is already a negative spin on the talks.


What? Judge Breyer's iron mandate could possibly be challenged again? Heads are gonna roll and stuff will get done if he has a say zzzZZZzzzZZzzz........



GoHomePossum said:


> They have decided, for whatever reason, that they don't benefit from a fast resolution.


I don't know what that reason could be. We may never figure this one out. Why would a company drag their feet on coming up with a resolution that will cost them money. Damnit, I just can't put my finger on it...... but I know it must be staring us right in the face


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

*VW has a gag order..*

I like how the EPA, Gina McCarthy, comes out and makes comments. VW has a government gag order.

EPA + CARB = < 0


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

Vicelord said:


> That's just how people are though, it's an emotional response and it takes over. Back in 2007 when the housing market crashed hard I just remember people saying "my house is worth nothing, I'm going to stop making payments and let the bank take it". I bit my tongue because telling people the market value of their house is irrelevant if they weren't trying to sell it just would open up arguments. You can make the discussion about any product and if the perceived value goes down people freak out, we're a prideful lot I suppose. It's a punch right in the ego.



It is called unrealized losses. The cold hard financial facts are that the brand has, and will have for the foreseeable future, a negative outlook on resale values. No emotion, just financial fact. Now if you hold the vehicle, you are assuming that the resale value will someday return a value that approximates where it should have been assuming no fiasco. If the GM diesel fiasco (history) is any indicator, we would know that the negative impact on diesels has lasted in the American conscience for 30 years. The impact on the gas models will probably not be as long.

As far as your house argument, the lasting financial impact on the economy can not be understated. The negative impact on consumer spending, caused by the loss in home equity.... helped to exacerbate the downturn. Those dollars will never be recovered. Your argument is lost one. Will assets should have been growing instead they were tanking, etc...etc..etc...

Several families abandoned their homes in my neighborhood at the beginning of the crisis. They were abler to get into homes before the end of the crisis and now have piles of equity. They rode the return in property values. My next door neighbor did two short sales of some type, one in Arizona and one in Washington. He was able to acquire a home in Bellevue Washington before the values came back and he is sitting pretty with piles of equity too. All of these folks made gains by dumping. No emotion, just financial fact.


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

I think a lot of this _Resale Angst_ is wrapped up in history. TDI owners have been crowing for a looooooooong time that TDI's don't lose value, that they are always worth more and you'll always "get it back at resale" etc. etc. etc.

The Scandal equals a paradigm shift. Now people are stuck with cars that are depreciating faster than their competitors, cars that they paid more for because they were diesels. Cars with higher fuel costs because they are diesels. And now their resale is tanking. It's a double-whammy.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

Sporin said:


> I think a lot of this _Resale Angst_ is wrapped up in history. TDI owners have been crowing for a looooooooong time that TDI's don't lose value, that they are always worth more and you'll always "get it back at resale" etc. etc. etc.
> 
> The Scandal equals a paradigm shift. Now people are stuck with cars that are depreciating faster than their competitors, cars that they paid more for because they were diesels. Cars with higher fuel costs because they are diesels. And now their resale is tanking. It's a double-whammy.


well the bright side, i'm enjoying $2.10 for diesel vs 2.80 for premium.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

rich! said:


> well the bright side, i'm enjoying $2.10 for diesel vs 2.80 for premium.


Ditto, my diesel here in SoCal is 70 cents a gallon cheaper than regular. I had no plans to sell the TDI's for another 10 years or more, so I'm OK as long as they don't force me to buyback the car. *Then* I'm screwed.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

I'm finally starting to see some good deals pop up on my local CL. I'm really tempted to take a risk and pick up one of the '09-'11 JSW's I've seen in the $7-8500 range.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

GoHomePossum said:


> VW is going to drag this out as long as they can. They have decided, for whatever reason, that they don't benefit from a fast resolution. So we're all just gonna have to keep sitting on our hands.


It seems to me that VW has told the EPA that it cannot fix the Gen 1 diesels to the EPA's satisfaction. As a result, they are probably negotiating alternative measure$.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

T5 Dave said:


> Ditto, my diesel here in SoCal is 70 cents a gallon cheaper than regular. I had no plans to sell the TDI's for another 10 years or more, so I'm OK as long as they don't force me to buyback the car. *Then* I'm screwed.


Same around here (tho diesel and regular are the same price in maryland). As long as the buyback remains optional, and I can continue to register my car, I'm good.


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

Hajduk said:


> It seems to me that VW has told the EPA that it cannot fix the Gen 1 diesels to the EPA's satisfaction. As a result, they are probably negotiating alternative measure$.


We haven't seen a lot of information on this. I had understood (from a post many pages back in this thread) that Gen 1 have a pretty good solution, and Gen 2 are problematic. Since the EPA rejected the solutions for all the cars, I suppose the reality is all of the cars are the problem until the parties can arrive at an agreement.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

PnZrFsT said:


> I'm finally starting to see some good deals pop up on my local CL. I'm really tempted to take a risk and pick up one of the '09-'11 JSW's I've seen in the $7-8500 range.


I guess after 8 months of sitting on the cars, people just can't hold out any longer and must sell. 

I think TDI ownership is now like boat ownership; *the two best days in the life of a boat owner are the day you buy the boat and the day you sell the boat.*


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Blonde Guy said:


> We haven't seen a lot of information on this. I had understood (from a post many pages back in this thread) that Gen 1 have a pretty good solution, and Gen 2 are problematic. Since the EPA rejected the solutions for all the cars, I suppose the reality is all of the cars are the problem until the parties can arrive at an agreement.


Please cite this. I think you have that reversed. GEN1 is what can't be easily fixed. And the majority of TDIs in this are GEN1.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

GoHomePossum said:


> VW is going to drag this out as long as they can. They have decided, for whatever reason, that they don't benefit from a fast resolution. So we're all just gonna have to keep sitting on our hands.


Good thing you clearly have nothing better to do but care about a car you don't even own..


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

BREAKING NEWS :

Volkswagen AG has filed for bankruptcy and will depart from the United States market.


Is this what everyone here is waiting for? Call me a sympathizer, fanboi or whatever but I mark this up as another car manufacturer getting caught with their pants down. Every company cuts corners and makes stuff up to outsell the other brands and woo the consumer. Unfortunately VW made an ad campaign about it.


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

VW could have been over and done with this by now AND retained some customer loyalty, if they'd just done, immediately after the EPA announcement, what Toyota did with the Tacoma frames.

Buyback at 150% of KBB plus additional incentives if you bought another VW for all currently effected TDI owners.

Done. Easy. 

Instead they've stalled and delayed so long that they are killing dealers and shaking away long-term VW owners.


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

Sporin said:


> VW could have been over and done with this by now AND retained some customer loyalty, if they'd just done, immediately after the EPA announcement, what Toyota did with the Tacoma frames.
> 
> Buyback at 150% of KBB plus additional incentives if you bought another VW for all currently effected TDI owners.
> 
> ...


x1000


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Lol well at least they've got this going for them... :laugh:



> VOLKSWAGEN GROUP OF AMERICA HONORED BY THE HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN FOUNDATION AS A TOP LGBT-INCLUSIVE BUSINESS
> Apr 6, 2016


http://media.vw.com/release/1169/


----------



## WRXGuy (Feb 20, 2002)

Sporin said:


> VW could have been over and done with this by now AND retained some customer loyalty, if they'd just done, immediately after the EPA announcement, what Toyota did with the Tacoma frames.
> 
> Buyback at 150% of KBB plus additional incentives if you bought another VW for all currently effected TDI owners.
> 
> ...


I'm not one for making my own helmet out of tinfoil, but maybe, just maybe, VWoA (well, VWAG for that matter) is dragging this out *on purpose*, for some unknown reason? This really was an easy fix- pull out the Corporate Checkbook, start writing checks to affected TDI owners to buy back their cars, VW loses $B from their checking account, but you've saved face. 

But no - they seem to be going out of their way to do the exact opposite, and to delaydelaydelay, thereby angering EVERYONE. Why would they do this? Its insane. :facepalm:


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

WRXGuy said:


> But no - they seem to be going out of their way to do the exact opposite, and to delaydelaydelay, thereby angering EVERYONE. Why would they do this? Its insane. :facepalm:


I said before- maybe they are actually trying to work the US politics now.
Make some backroom deals, get some politicians on their side to help push from the inside for weaker penalties.
There simply must be SOME reason they are dragging their feet so much on this.
Germans always gave a plan.
It may be a blindly biased to how Germans think plan, but they have a plan.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Sporin said:


> VW could have been over and done with this by now AND retained some customer loyalty, if they'd just done, immediately after the EPA announcement, what Toyota did with the Tacoma frames.
> 
> Buyback at 150% of KBB plus additional incentives if you bought another VW for all currently effected TDI owners.
> 
> ...


Usually, companies don't choose the most expensive option first.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

WRXGuy said:


> I'm not one for making my own helmet out of tinfoil, but maybe, just maybe, VWoA (well, VWAG for that matter) is dragging this out *on purpose*, for some unknown reason? This really was an easy fix- pull out the Corporate Checkbook, start writing checks to affected TDI owners to buy back their cars, VW loses $B from their checking account, but you've saved face.
> 
> But no - they seem to be going out of their way to do the exact opposite, and to delaydelaydelay, thereby angering EVERYONE. Why would they do this? Its insane. :facepalm:


They do this because they don't know how to react and are secretly hoping it will go away on its own so they don't have to do anything about it. They think the nasty US regulators are conspiring against VW and are locked in a daze as no one is taking any action to get them out of their fog. The inaction is not deliberate on their part but more of a lack of understanding of how customers in this part of the world work. Nothing new.


----------



## csr67 (Oct 24, 2003)

Every week they stall, the more the value of the potential buybacks decreases, thus saving them millions.... I'll continue driving my 2016 TReg Tdi until they figure this cluster f*ck out. I still feel like I was defrauded since I bought (or leased) mine a week after the 4 cyl Tdi mess started. At that time, VW knew they had issues with the V6's as well, but they continued to market them. 

I love the car, and can't think of any available replacement that will give the same performance or MPG in a large SUV. After owning 6 VWOA products in my life, this will be the last after they've effed themselves repeatedly with this mess.


----------



## WRXGuy (Feb 20, 2002)

But thats the thing- by trying to run out the clock on this, they're not saving ANYTHING-- the US and other countries are ready to pounce and extract huge financial penalties, owners are lining up to sue, and there's the long-term damage to sales -- how is that cheaper than just saying "We're REALLY sorry, here's some $. We cool?" 

I'm not naive -- been with Fortune 50 companies my entire working career -- so I know how the game is played. It just seems like VW got a different playbook than everyone else.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

WRXGuy said:


> I'm not one for making my own helmet out of tinfoil, but maybe, just maybe, VWoA (well, VWAG for that matter) is dragging this out *on purpose*, for some unknown reason? This really was an easy fix- pull out the Corporate Checkbook, start writing checks to affected TDI owners to buy back their cars, VW loses $B from their checking account, but you've saved face.
> 
> But no - they seem to be going out of their way to do the exact opposite, and to delaydelaydelay, thereby angering EVERYONE. Why would they do this? Its insane. :facepalm:


Hmmmm. So they're pissing people off for seemingly no benefit, there's illogical decision making taking place, nobody really knows what's going on over there and their numbers keep going down because of those things after a successful stint...

Perhaps unbeknownst to us Donald Trump has taken the reigns at VW!!


----------



## WRXGuy (Feb 20, 2002)

Air and water do mix said:


> Hmmmm. So they're pissing people off for seemingly no benefit, there's illogical decision making taking place, nobody really knows what's going on over there and their numbers keep going down because of those things after a successful stint...
> 
> Perhaps unbeknownst to us Donald Trump has taken the reigns at VW!!


<snicker>


----------



## LieutenantShinySides (May 4, 2007)

csr67 said:


> *Every week they stall, the more the value of the potential buybacks decreases, thus saving them millions*.... I'll continue driving my 2016 TReg Tdi until they figure this cluster f*ck out. I still feel like I was defrauded since I bought (or leased) mine a week after the 4 cyl Tdi mess started. At that time, VW knew they had issues with the V6's as well, but they continued to market them.
> 
> I love the car, and can't think of any available replacement that will give the same performance or MPG in a large SUV. After owning 6 VWOA products in my life, this will be the last after they've effed themselves repeatedly with this mess.


Any alleged buy back would be at a value prior to the scandal.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

csr67 said:


> I'll continue driving my 2016 TReg Tdi until they figure this cluster f*ck out. I still feel like I was defrauded since I bought *(or leased)* mine a week after the 4 cyl Tdi mess started.


Well did you buy or did you lease? If you have a lease, then none of this costs you anything. The resale value could drop to $0 and it doesn't matter, when the lease is up you turn the car in and let them worry about it.


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

csr67 said:


> Every week they stall, the more the value of the potential buybacks decreases, thus saving them millions....


That doesn't make any sense. 

Buyback values will be pre-scandal numbers. In the meantime, their sales are tanking, their dealers are revolting, and their brand perception is in the toilet for the forseable future.

That all only gets worse and worse the longer the Germans do nothing.


----------



## csr67 (Oct 24, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> Well did you buy or did you lease? If you have a lease, then none of this costs you anything. The resale value could drop to $0 and it doesn't matter, when the lease is up you turn the car in and let them worry about it.


I leased, so your point is valid. But... if they propose a fix that delivers less that what I'm paying for, then I have an issue. At this rate who knows if VW will still be solvent in 3 years when my lease is up? I may be dealing with some bankruptcy trustee.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

LieutenantShinySides said:


> Any alleged buy back would be at a value prior to the scandal.


Depends if they take mileage into account. Many TDI drivers will have have 15k more miles on their cars before any buyback would happen from the start of the scandal. Also some small percentage have been sold, crashed, or otherwise taken out of service and not subject to buyback. Time is on VW's side in these cases.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Sporin said:


> their dealers are revolting


Some of them are ok fellas.


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

Silly_me said:


> Some of them are ok fellas.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

*VW brand in the US is struggling...*



Sporin said:


> Buyback values will be pre-scandal numbers. In the meantime, their sales are tanking, their dealers are revolting, and their brand perception is in the toilet for the forseable future.


Was at a car show weekend before last. A dealer had a new VW or two there, and the normally +$2000 dealer markup was -$2000 (from MSRP). This was on a Jetta wagon. I guess they are all feeling it.

The contrast though between AUDI/Porsche and VW is striking. Audi sales continue to march along and Porsche seems to be insulated as well.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

spockcat said:


> Depends if they take mileage into account. Many TDI drivers will have have 15k more miles on their cars before any buyback would happen from the start of the scandal. Also some small percentage have been sold, crashed, or otherwise taken out of service and not subject to buyback. Time is on VW's side in these cases.


Presumably crashed cars would be reimbursed by insurance at post-scandal market value, they wouldn't be subject to buyback but they would have to reimburse those people in a similar fashion. I don't think the courts are going to give VW the benefit of stalling. I wouldn't be surprised if the buyback is at or above pre-scandal values for the average miles for a car the same age as the car was *at the time the scandal broke*. Basically you would get the mileage for free after that because VW is dragging their feet on a resolution.

Although VW is probably pushing for just paying fines and only partially fixing the cars. But either way they will have to addressed the reduced value of the cars. The only logical reason for stalling is to negotiate a better deal with the feds. Their brand image wasn't that great to begin and VW has said time and time again that they "didn't think it would be that big of a deal", clearly they still don't. Granted they are probably correct that this will blow over like a year after it's resolved. 

Who still talks about Hyundai/KIA's fuel econ fiasco, GM ignition switch issues, Honda intentionally not reporting Death and Injury complaints to the NHTSA (that one was never big IIRC, and that fine was huge), Toyota unintentional acceleration issues... try finding a company that hasn't screwed something up big time at some point.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

csr67 said:


> Every week they stall, the more the value of the potential buybacks decreases, thus saving them millions.... I'll continue driving my 2016 TReg Tdi until they figure this cluster f*ck out. I still feel like I was defrauded since I bought (or leased) mine a week after the 4 cyl Tdi mess started. At that time, VW knew they had issues with the V6's as well, but they continued to market them.
> 
> I love the car, and can't think of any available replacement that will give the same performance or MPG in a large SUV. After owning 6 VWOA products in my life, this will be the last after they've effed themselves repeatedly with this mess.



As long as I walk past our TDI in the garage each morning, I won't forget.




Sporin said:


> VW could have been over and done with this by now AND retained some customer loyalty, if they'd just done, immediately after the EPA announcement, what Toyota did with the Tacoma frames.
> 
> Buyback at 150% of KBB plus additional incentives if you bought another VW for all currently effected TDI owners.
> 
> ...


This ^


----------



## Jouko Haapanen (Apr 30, 2001)

Yes. 



Silly_me said:


> Some of them are ok fellas.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

JitteryJoe said:


> Presumably crashed cars would be reimbursed by insurance at post-scandal market value, they wouldn't be subject to buyback but they would have to reimburse those people in a similar fashion. I don't think the courts are going to give VW the benefit of stalling. I wouldn't be surprised if the buyback is at or above* pre-scandal values for the average miles for a car the same age as the car was at the time the scandal broke. Basically you would get the mileage for free after that because VW is dragging their feet on a resolution.*


So owners with low mileage cars get screwed in your scenario and high mileage owners profit? Doesn't seem fair. I think they would have to take mileage into account in some fashion if there was a buyback.


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

spockcat said:


> So owners with low mileage cars get screwed in your scenario and high mileage owners profit? Doesn't seem fair. I think they would have to take mileage into account in some fashion if there was a buyback.


We're never gonna have everyone be happy in this situation. 

In response to what some people said above, I have to wonder if part of the delay is VW making an effort to keep as many of their assets as possible, and if/when selling assets being in a position where they don't have to liquidate with speed. If they did have to sell stuff fast, they'd feel the pressure and the buyer would likely pay less.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

phospher5 said:


> In response to what some people said above, I have to wonder if part of the delay is VW making an effort to keep as many of their assets as possible, and if/when selling assets being in a position where they don't have to liquidate with speed. If they did have to sell stuff fast, they'd feel the pressure and the buyer would likely pay less.


Or they're in such uncharted territory they don't know or are too afraid to do anything; i.e., deer in the headlights mode, basically.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

phospher5 said:


> We're never gonna have everyone be happy in this situation.
> 
> In response to what some people said above, I have to wonder if part of the delay is VW making an effort to keep as many of their assets as possible, and if/when selling assets being in a position where they don't have to liquidate with speed. If they did have to sell stuff fast, they'd feel the pressure and the buyer would likely pay less.


From all the analysis I've read, VW has enough cash to weather this storm without selling major assets. And it is likely that government fines will be made payable over time rather than all at once.


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

spockcat said:


> From all the analysis I've read, VW has enough cash to weather this storm without selling major assets. And it is likely that government fines will be made payable over time rather than all at once.


Interesting- I didn't realize they had enough to cover the fines and the fixes/compensation with liquid assets on hand. That's good though, means they are in supreme shape going forward and any talk of pulling out or shutting down locations would be totally unsupported.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

spockcat said:


> From all the analysis I've read, VW has enough cash to weather this storm without selling major assets. And it is likely that government fines will be made payable over time rather than all at once.


BP did just get fined $20B for the oil spill back in 2010


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

T5 Dave said:


> Or they're in such uncharted territory they don't know or are too afraid to do anything; i.e., deer in the headlights mode, basically.


Or they are desparate to save face by finding an engineering solution at all costs.

It takes about 6 months running 24/7 to run a 120,000 / 150,000 mile durability test that is somewhat representative of normal driving and includes a representative number of stops, cool-down periods, and cold starts.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

phil123 said:


> BP did just get fined $20B for the oil spill back in 2010


I've said it before, but it bears being reminded, the largest fine for the violation of the clean air act was levied against Hyundai for their MPG *lie*

Not only was this issue in regards to *four* times as many vehicles than dieselgate, but their inflated mpg numbers meant they lied to the EPA about the green house emissions, roughly 4.75 million metric tons more over the life of the cars than was anticipated given their numbers.

And what was this *LARGEST FINE EVER* amounted to? well...... $100m civil penalty (paid customers for the fuel used to make the difference in the mpg), $50 million on measures to prevent any future violations, and greenhouse gas emission credits of $200 million.

Now why would VW's fine be bigger? 

Because the EPA found out about Hyundai's lie by actually testing the vehicles themselves :laugh: 

If VW's fines add up to be more than $1B it is nothing more than a money grab witch hunt by a bunch of inept regulators trying to save face for being duped so fan-fecking-tastically. No one asked Hyundai to make their existing cars more economical, so the fact that we are even expecting VW to fix their cars is lunacy. EPA should fine VW, make them pay for credits, and force them to compensate owners (since we don't have a tangible number, like fuel costs to lied mpg rating, let's say an algorithm that calculates normal depreciation of a car, takes into account the impact on diesel cars as the oil price hit the ground floor, and then figures a tidy sum for dieselgate's impacts).


----------



## Techun (Dec 27, 2006)

csr67 said:


> I leased, so your point is valid. But... if they propose a fix that delivers less that what I'm paying for, then I have an issue. At this rate who knows if VW will still be solvent in 3 years when my lease is up? I may be dealing with some bankruptcy trustee.


It sounds like you just want to cash in on something that doesn't really affect you.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW dealer defies council, sues factory for damages from diesel scandal*



> WASHINGTON -- Three Volkswagen dealerships owned by the Illinois-based Napleton Automotive Group sued the automaker Wednesday, defying a VW dealer council effort to dissuade retailers from using courts to tackle grievances caused by the automaker’s diesel-emissions crisis.
> 
> The 111-page lawsuit seeks class-action status and accuses VW of defrauding retailers, according to a statement from Hagens Berman Sobol Shapiro, the Seattle-based law firm representing the Napleton dealerships.
> 
> ...


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

GoFaster said:


> Or they are desparate to save face by finding an engineering solution at all costs.
> 
> It takes about 6 months running 24/7 to run a 120,000 / 150,000 mile durability test that is somewhat representative of normal driving and includes a representative number of stops, cool-down periods, and cold starts.


that 6 months of test is after the engineering is complete and the prototypes are manufactured and assembled. That could take just as long before the above testing is done.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*German regulator finds VW only one to use defeat devices, report says*



> BERLIN (Reuters) -- The German Federal Motor Transport Authority (KBA) has completed its tests on diesel vehicles and concluded that only Volkswagen Group has used so-called defeat devices to cheat emissions tests, German daily Handelsblatt reported.
> 
> VW is facing investigations and lawsuits around the world after it acknowledged in September it had rigged exhaust emission tests for up to 11 million vehicles worldwide.
> 
> ...


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

spockcat said:


> So owners with low mileage cars get screwed in your scenario and high mileage owners profit? Doesn't seem fair. I think they would have to take mileage into account in some fashion if there was a buyback.


If only their was a device on cars that tracked the amount of mileage since new some how. Such a device could be used to prove that they had an abnormally low mileages car (once again as I've said before the exact opposite of what a TDI is for) on their car so they could be reimbursed accordingly.

They're not going to make everyone come in for mileage readings if they don't have to, it's simpler and easier to just pay based on an average mileage and let only the people with super low miles come in and prove it.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

JitteryJoe said:


> If only their was a device on cars that tracked the amount of mileage since new some how. Such a device could be used to prove that they had an abnormally low mileages car (once again as I've said before the exact opposite of what a TDI is for) on their car so they could be reimbursed accordingly.
> 
> They're not going to make everyone come in for mileage readings if they don't have to, it's simpler and easier to just pay based on an average mileage and let only the people with super low miles come in and prove it.


If the car has to be delivered to a dealer, they can verify the mileage on such device if it existed and pay owners accordingly. Certainly wouldn't be rocket science to come up with a value table based on model, options, and mileage. Go look at IRS tax tables. They have no issues coming up with a table for every scenario.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

spockcat said:


> *German regulator finds VW only one to use defeat devices, report says*


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

spockcat said:


> If the car has to be delivered to a dealer, they can verify the mileage on such device if it existed and pay owners accordingly.


He's talking about the odometer. Every car already has an odometer.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> I've said it before, but it bears being reminded, the largest fine for the violation of the clean air act was levied against Hyundai for their MPG *lie*
> 
> Not only was this issue in regards to *four* times as many vehicles than dieselgate, but their inflated mpg numbers meant they lied to the EPA about the green house emissions, roughly 4.75 million metric tons more over the life of the cars than was anticipated given their numbers.
> 
> ...


this guy gets it.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

You'reDrunk said:


> this guy gets it.


A brief moment of clarity between drunken rampages? :laugh:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> A brief moment of clarity between drunken rampages? :laugh:




you or me???


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

You'reDrunk said:


> you or me???


I would never accuse you of having a brief moment of clarity :laugh:


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> I've said it before, but it bears being reminded, the largest fine for the violation of the clean air act was levied against Hyundai for their MPG *lie*
> 
> Not only was this issue in regards to *four* times as many vehicles than dieselgate, but their inflated mpg numbers meant they lied to the EPA about the green house emissions, roughly 4.75 million metric tons more over the life of the cars than was anticipated given their numbers.
> 
> ...


That's fine, no one is arguing the past, we are discussing potential ideas (because that's all they are at this point) on what VW may end up doing about this.

Only time will tell how much VW will have to pay...


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

You'reDrunk said:


> this guy gets it.


Is that code for "this guy also defends VW by talking about Hyundai's mpg issue"?

Hyundai had two things in the MPG estimate issue that VW absolutely doesn't have with their diesel issue:

1-Plausible deniability.
2-The cars sold were fully legal when sold.

When the EPA's MPG estimate testing did not match up, Hyundai claimed they had a procedural error in their MPG estimate testing, issued new estimates and agreed to compensate buyers of cars and sport-utility vehicles that were incorrectly labeled.
All the the vehicles affected were *fully legal when sold *and still fully legal when the issue was found.

VW intentionally sold vehicles that did not meet emissions requirements.
Meaning they intentionally sold illegal vehicles.

QUIT COMPARING APPLES AND LAMAS! :banghead:


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

BRealistic said:


> Is that code for "this guy also defends VW by talking about Hyundai's mpg issue"?
> 
> Hyundai had something in the MPG estimate issue that VW absolutely doesn't have with their diesel issue:
> 
> ...


only if you quit spelling llamas wrong.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

jreed1337 said:


> only if you quit spelling llamas wrong.


Sorry- my spell checker doesn't check all caps.
QUIT MAKKING ME MADD! :laugh:


Or... internet defense mode.

No.. I was talking about the Dalai Lama!


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

BRealistic said:


> Is that code for "this guy also defends VW by talking about Hyundai's mpg issue"?


I wasn't defending VW, I was pointing out how incredibly blown out of proportion this issue is.



BRealistic said:


> 2-The cars sold were fully legal when sold.


So were the TDIs, else they would not have been allowed to have been sold :laugh:



BRealistic said:


> All the the vehicles affected were *fully legal when sold *and still fully legal when the issue was found.


So that $200m in credits was goodwill? :laugh:



BRealistic said:


> QUIT COMPARING APPLES AND LAMAS! :banghead:


So VW didn't violate the clean air act?


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)




----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)




----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

BRealistic said:


> Is that code for "this guy also defends VW by talking about Hyundai's mpg issue"?
> 
> Hyundai had two things in the MPG estimate issue that VW absolutely doesn't have with their diesel issue:
> 
> ...


Are there some llamas to compare to ?


----------



## rick8018 (Jan 3, 2001)

Sporin said:


>


Lorenzo Lamas!!! LMAO!


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

So, can someone post up a Cliffnote version of what happened up to today?


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Uberhare said:


> So, can someone post up a Cliffnote version of what happened up to today?


If you are interested in real news you should go to a real news source.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Uberhare said:


> So, can someone post up a Cliffnote version of what happened up to today?


Nothing.

(And yes, that was the answer to your question.)


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Uberhare said:


> So, can someone post up a Cliffnote version of what happened up to today?


9/18/15: It is announced that VW lied about TDI emissions.
_crickets_
4/7/16: _still crickets_

Seem about right?


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

Silly_me said:


> I wasn't defending VW, I was pointing out how incredibly blown out of proportion this issue is.


Well this is TCL and we are talking about VWs.. goes without saying


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

BRealistic said:


> 2-The cars sold were fully legal when sold.


Not really. They were legal in the same way as VW TDIs were legal. That is, based on falsehoods. In order to sell a car legally, they need to be EPA certified for emissions including fuel economy. Once Hyundai's fuel economy numbers were found to be BS their certification was invalid. Hyundai had to reapply for certification in order to make their cars legal.


----------



## skramer (Jun 23, 2012)

The part I've wondered about this whole process is what did VW put on the 2016's that caused the EPA to with revoke the certification, first it was a delay weeks up to the announcement emissions cheating. EPA found new software/system on the 2016's that was not on the 2015's, this all started after VW TDI's were being looked at more closely due to irregularities in emission testing. I think the whole "scandal" is going to go down in history as how to not handle an issue...if you are caught, do not design another cheat device software (which I personally believe the 2016's had on them). That is the reason they are going to get hard with fines, and immediately lawyered up with the best money could buy, vs fixing the issues and saying sorry, lets move on. The scandal will cost VW dearly in the pocket book, dealers, investors and product confidence all shattered.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

spockcat said:


> *German regulator finds VW only one to use defeat devices, report says*


Sure.

Others just had strategies that switched the EGR off below a certain ambient temperature (just below the testing window) and above a certain altitude (above the testing window) ... but those are active no matter whether it's in the lab or not, so it's not a "defeat", it's just that the lab doesn't catch those circumstances.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

GoFaster said:


> Sure.
> 
> Others just had strategies that switched the EGR off below a certain ambient temperature (just below the testing window) and above a certain altitude (above the testing window) ... but those are active no matter whether it's in the lab or not, so it's not a "defeat", it's just that the lab doesn't catch those circumstances.


Yup. The regulators are now doing on-road testing of diesels and are finding that a number makes and models are showing NOx values well above legal limits. We will more of this in the future.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Hajduk said:


> Yup. The regulators are now doing on-road testing of diesels and are finding that a number makes and models are showing NOx values well above legal limits. We will more of this in the future.


I still want to hear more about the claimed Mercedes variation: that it switches to a high emissions program when the temperature drops below 50 degrees. That's something that wouldn't even show up in real-world testing if you did that testing in the summer in a lot of places, for example. If it turns out that cars are allowed to be gross polluters below 50 degrees that will be another nail in the diesel coffin as far as regulators are concerned. One of the top regulators at the EPA wrote a book last year about how business gets done at the EPA and stated flat out that their goal is to eliminate internal combustion engines from personal transportation over the next 40 years. Diesel will almost surely be the first to go if it truly is this hard to keep it clean.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> He's talking about the odometer. Every car already has an odometer.


Yes, of course he was. I was being similarly obtuse. But the point is that if there were a buyback, then each car would have to be turned in at a dealership or similar place where a handover of keys and title would take place. At that point the odometer could be checked and the actual value assessed based on thing such as model, options, mileage, etc. Dealers do this every day, all day. Why shouldn't they be able to do it during a buyback? Why should VW get away with paying a fixed figure based on average mileage and owners of low mileage vehicles get screwed? Same with a base model Jetta versus one that was loaded up with options.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

*Ed Napleton - owner of multiple VW dealerships - files class action suit against Volkswagen*

Does the name sound familiar? It should, because he's suing FCA for roughly the same thing, too. Of course, it doesn't exactly put VW in good company to be associated with the business practices that FCA uses, nor is yet another lawsuit what VW needs right now.



> The owner of several Volkswagen franchises across the country and in the suburbs has filed a class-action lawsuit against the car manufacturer in the wake of a diesel emissions-rigging scandal.
> 
> Ed Napleton, owner of several Volkswagen dealerships through the Westmont-based Napleton Dealership Group, filed the lawsuit Wednesday in Chicago.
> 
> ...


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

And dealers wonder why Tesla didn't adopt their way of selling :laugh:


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> And dealers wonder why Tesla didn't adopt their way of selling :laugh:


And didn't Tesla just take orders for more cars in 3 days than VW could ever hope to sell in the US in one year?

:laugh:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> And dealers wonder why Tesla didn't adopt their way of selling :laugh:


No doubt. Not that there is any way to defend the damage done to dealers by VW's practices, of course.



T5 Dave said:


> And didn't Tesla just take orders for more cars in 3 days than VW could ever hope to sell in the US in one year?
> 
> :laugh:


:laugh: 

Well, yeah. Of course that's not directly comparable to any other release of any other car. Ever. Even the 1964 Mustang release and 1989 Miata release couldn't compare to that.  :beer:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

T5 Dave said:


> And didn't Tesla just take orders for more cars in 3 days than VW could ever hope to sell in the US in one year?
> 
> :laugh:


and yet they've never produced that many cars since their inception.......this should be good.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

T5 Dave said:


> And didn't Tesla just take orders for more cars in 3 days than VW could ever hope to sell in the US in one year?
> 
> :laugh:


Deposit =/= order


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

You'reDrunk said:


> and yet they've never produced that many cars since their inception.......this should be good.


I still have some stock riding on it. Fortunately I bought a week after the IPO at 17 1/4, so even if the stock tanks from today's value I'll still get something out of it. But you're right, it all hangs on myriad details, especially the batteries, so let's see how it all plays out.

Should take as long as the TDI resolution, if not less, I'd imagine . . . .


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

PnZrFsT said:


> Deposit =/= order


Still, it's $325M they didn't have last week.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

AZGolf said:


> One of the top regulators at the EPA wrote a book last year about how business gets done at the EPA and stated flat out that their goal is to eliminate internal combustion engines from personal transportation over the next 40 years.



Pretty much personal transportation is in their cross hairs. Personal transportation is unsustainable in their view. These changes are at any cost. Get out your bike...

EPA + CARB < 0


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

kickercoach said:


> Pretty much personal transportation is in their cross hairs. Personal transportation is unsustainable in their view. These changes are at any cost. Get out your bike...
> 
> EPA + CARB < 0


As much as I love cars, I can't in good conscience dissent from their view.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

T5 Dave said:


> Still, it's $325M they didn't have last week.


True, however don't forget that this isn't a $325M loan, this is 325000, $1000 loans. Not _quite_ the same. (not saying that this still isn't *huge *for Tesla)


----------



## skramer (Jun 23, 2012)

AZGolf said:


> *Ed Napleton - owner of multiple VW dealerships - files class action suit against Volkswagen*
> 
> Does the name sound familiar? It should, because he's suing FCA for roughly the same thing, too. Of course, it doesn't exactly put VW in good company to be associated with the business practices that FCA uses, nor is yet another lawsuit what VW needs right now.


Yep..and one his locations has a 2015 GSW SEL Red/Quartz I would love to take off his hands


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

PnZrFsT said:


> True, however don't forget that this isn't a $325M loan, this is 325000, $1000 loans. Not _quite_ the same. (not saying that this still isn't *huge *for Tesla)


I don't really like calling it a loan at all. These are deposits, not loans. A loan has to be paid back with interest, usually in the form of an installment loan with regular payments. That's not at all what this is, which is why it's called a deposit, not a loan. Even for the people who cancel their deposits, it's still beneficial to Tesla because they got to use the money interest-free in the mean time.


----------



## Seabird (Feb 8, 2002)

AZGolf said:


>


Ima jes drop dis righhh-cheyeeuh:

Mercedes diesel owners file new lawsuit in United States
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/merce...lawsuit-united-states-081232611--finance.html

(Apologies if rozap)


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Seabird said:


> Ima jes drop dis righhh-cheyeeuh:
> 
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/merce...lawsuit-united-states-081232611--finance.html


:facepalm: and yet, no one has filed any serious lawsuits against Takata for their mess....and people are dying on a regular basis from that mess. SMH

edit: I stand corrected and found ONE

http://www.girardgibbs.com/takata/


----------



## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

kickercoach said:


> Pretty much personal transportation is in their cross hairs. Personal transportation is unsustainable in their view. These changes are at any cost. Get out your bike...
> 
> EPA + CARB < 0


It'll be a cold day in Hell before I'm forced to rely on public transportation. I'm a solo act. I pity our children and grandchildren's existence in a Police State.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Seabird said:


> Mercedes diesel owners file new lawsuit in United States
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/merce...lawsuit-united-states-081232611--finance.html


Oh ferfecksake  My MB is a pre-pissy diesel and regularly mugs grandmothers of their pensions and suffocates toddlers at the local park, *WHERES MAH MONEE!* :banghead:


----------



## rmchung (Feb 6, 2011)

AZGolf said:


> I don't really like calling it a loan at all. These are deposits, not loans. A loan has to be paid back with interest, usually in the form of an installment loan with regular payments. That's not at all what this is, which is why it's called a deposit, not a loan. Even for the people who cancel their deposits, it's still beneficial to Tesla because they got to use the money interest-free in the mean time.


To pay off their constant accumulation of debt.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

GoFaster said:


> Sure.
> 
> Others just had strategies that switched the EGR off below a certain ambient temperature (just below the testing window) and above a certain altitude (above the testing window) ... *but those are active no matter whether it's in the lab or not, so it's not a "defeat", it's just that the lab doesn't catch those circumstances.*


The EPA would have to rule on that. Of course, there are practical limits with emissions controls for internal combustion engines. But you have to disclose these workarounds _before_ certification and gain approval from the EPA. The legality of the emissions controls cannot be judged simply by the whether they're turned on/off based on dyno versus road testing. You have to meet the intent of the law.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

PnZrFsT said:


> Deposit =/= order


Generally speaking, in accounting terms, cash for a deposit is a registered as a liability (not an asset) since it is promise to provide a customer future goods and/or services that haven't been realized yet.

That being said, I'm not an accountant, I'm just an engineer who happened to take accounting. So my understanding of recording financial transactions is simplified compared to the intricacies of a multi-national company.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

BUJonathan said:


> Generally speaking, in accounting terms, cash for a deposit is a registered as a liability (not an asset) since it is promise to provide a customer future goods and/or services that haven't been realized yet.
> 
> That being said, I'm not an accountant, I'm just an engineer who happened to take accounting. So my understanding of recording financial transactions is simplified compared to the intricacies of a multi-national company.


except the liability is only as much as the value of the deposit, not the possible future sale. that would be treated differently from an accounting standpoint depending on what method of accounting the company uses.

what that poster was talking about/making a point was that just because someone lays down a $1K deposit today, doesn't guarantee a sale of a car in 2 years.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

You'reDrunk said:


> :facepalm: and yet, no one has filed any serious lawsuits against Takata for their mess....and people are dying on a regular basis from that mess. SMH
> 
> edit: I stand corrected and found ONE
> 
> http://www.girardgibbs.com/takata/


You are pretty funny with your attempts at redirection. Any time anyone complains about emissions you instantly redirect. It's a tried and true spin tactic among politicians and lawyers, but it's just a spin tactic nonetheless. One person's complaint about wrongdoing does not become invalid just because somebody else has done something worse. Your tactic is that of a 5-year old: "But mommy, I only stole $5 from your purse, and Billy stole $20! You can't do anything to me because Billy is the thief!"


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

AZGolf said:


> One person's complaint about wrongdoing does not become invalid just because somebody else has done something worse.


Aka the starving children in Africa fallacy.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> You are pretty funny with your attempts at redirection. Any time anyone complains about emissions you instantly redirect. It's a tried and true spin tactic among politicians and lawyers, but it's just a spin tactic nonetheless. One person's complaint about wrongdoing does not become invalid just because somebody else has done something worse. Your tactic is that of a 5-year old: "But mommy, I only stole $5 from your purse, and Billy stole $20! You can't do anything to me because Billy is the thief!"


I guess I'm not making myself clear.

both are serious issues and need to be resolved.

what I was trying to point at is that this thread rolls pages on a daily basis, and yet the only "harm" right now is resale value; where in the Takata issue thread has been sitting for months with no new posts when people are actually dying in those cars and the potential for serious personal injury is real...not monetary.

people seem more interested in emissions issues than death....where's the outrage at it taking YEARS for Takata to resolve the deadly airbags??? people here seem content with deadly airbags, but not with lying about emissions.

:screwy:


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

You'reDrunk said:


> I guess I'm not making myself clear.
> 
> both are serious issues and need to be resolved.
> 
> ...


True, but at least they have a solution.. replace the airbag. VW has no solution after far to many months.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

You'reDrunk said:


> the only "harm" right now is resale value; where in the Takata issue thread has been sitting for months with no new posts when people are actually dying in those cars and the potential for serious personal injury is real...not monetary.
> 
> people seem more interested in emissions issues than death....where's the outrage at it taking YEARS for Takata to resolve the deadly airbags???


Almost seven months since VW's pollution fraud became widely known, and You'reDrunk's still arguing (unpersuasively) that VW's crime isn't killing people.

From September 24, 2015:

_*NOx DOES kill people.*

NOx irritates the lungs and helps form damaging particulate pollution and smog. Higher smog levels have been linked to respiratory illnesses, increased asthma attacks, and even premature deaths (especially among the sick or elderly).

Rough and admittedly evolving estimations blame VW's fraud for an additional 40,400 to 164,700 tons of NOx emissions each year, which relates to perhaps a few hundred global deaths a year. But whatever the true death figure is, it's definitely not zero._

From November 18, 2015:

_Researchers from the *Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Harvard University* have assessed the human health impact thus far of VW's emissions scandal in the US.

Findings:
The excess emissions will cause approximately 59 (95% CI: 10 to 150) early deaths in the US.

When monetizing premature mortality using EPA-recommended data, the excess emissions have exacted a social cost of ~$450m over the sales period.

A return to compliance for all affected vehicles by the end of 2016 will avert ~*130 early deaths* and avoid ~$840m in social costs
Readers are warned, however, that these findings are the product of "educated people" employing "science" and "scientific methods" developed largely after the end of the "Middle Ages", so they're plainly not for everyone._[/QUOTE]


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

fiftysomething said:


> It'll be a cold day in Hell before I'm forced to rely on public transportation. I'm a solo act. I pity our children and grandchildren's existence in a Police State.


Shame for you that we socialized road construction and maintenance many decades ago. I can only assume you are too pure to drive amongst the unwashed on commie pinko "interstates" and "highways".










Must get dull logging all your miles on racetracks.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

GoFaster said:


> Sure.
> 
> Others just had strategies that switched the EGR off below a certain ambient temperature (just below the testing window) and above a certain altitude (above the testing window) ... but those are active no matter whether it's in the lab or not, so it's not a "defeat", it's just that the lab doesn't catch those circumstances.





BUJonathan said:


> The EPA would have to rule on that. Of course, there are practical limits with emissions controls for internal combustion engines. But you have to disclose these workarounds _before_ certification and gain approval from the EPA. The legality of the emissions controls cannot be judged simply by the whether they're turned on/off based on dyno versus road testing. You have to meet the intent of the law.


As far as I can tell, switching off the EGR below a certain temperature (evidently 10 C) or above a certain altitude (evidently 500 m) were strategies used in Euro 5 and possibly Euro 6 calibrations ... in which case, the EPA has nothing whatsoever to do with the scenario.

I know there's a law firm that has filed suit against Mercedes-Benz in the North American market based on these allegations, but I don't know if they have any real basis to their claim ... and for all we know, that exception in the emission control calibration could very well have been disclosed and accepted as an AECD (these negotiations are not public, because the emission control strategy is considered to be proprietary information). If that's the case, that law firm probably has no case.

Emissions calibrations in the North American market are not necessarily the same as those used in the European market.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

GoFaster said:


> As far as I can tell, switching off the EGR below a certain temperature (evidently 10 C) or above a certain altitude (evidently 500 m) were strategies used in Euro 5 and possibly Euro 6 calibrations ... in which case, the EPA has nothing whatsoever to do with the scenario.
> 
> I know there's a law firm that has filed suit against Mercedes-Benz in the North American market based on these allegations, but I don't know if they have any real basis to their claim ... and for all we know, that exception in the emission control calibration could very well have been disclosed and accepted as an AECD (these negotiations are not public, because the emission control strategy is considered to be proprietary information). If that's the case, that law firm probably has no case.


Correct, I was drawing reference to the lawsuit against MBNA. You're also correct Mercedes could have received a waiver from the US EPA. If that turns out to be the case, I imagine that will come to light quite quickly.




> Emissions calibrations in the North American market are not necessarily the same as those used in the European market.


I'm well aware, I used to do powertrain calibration. :wave:


----------



## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

Chilcoot said:


> Shame for you that we socialized road construction and maintenance many decades ago. I can only assume you are too pure to drive amongst the unwashed on commie pinko "interstates" and "highways".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have no idea what you're talking about. I just don't want some government agency telling me I can't enjoy the freedom of driving my own car. And as for the drivel above, computer-generated, speculative numbers of deaths from emissions are meaningless without proof, just as the "estimated " numbers of deaths from being around someone that smokes, (as I pointed out in an analogy a few pages back and everyone dismissed me as a crackpot.) The former is designed to make VW look as evil as possible, and the latter was designed to ostracize (and criminalize) smokers. Since a small number of people fall off rides and die at theme parks, this would be like coming up with some mathematical algorithm to justify closing all of them down or claiming that x number of people will drown in bathtubs and therefore from this day forward, only stand-up showers will be permitted in homes.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

Chilcoot said:


> ]Readers are warned, however, that these findings are the product of "educated people" employing "science" and "scientific methods" developed largely after the end of the "Middle Ages", so they're plainly not for everyone.[/i]


[/QUOTE]


Obviously, you have not read the full report, nor understood the methodology utilized to come to the numbers referenced in the cut an pasts you provided. If you did read them, and still insist on quoting them as scientific fact, I would suggest read and then reread them again. Other than that, spew away.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

Chilcoot said:


> Shame for you that we socialized road construction and maintenance many decades ago. I can only assume you are too pure to drive amongst the unwashed on commie pinko "interstates" and "highways".
> 
> 
> The vast majority of roads are paid for by fuel and associated taxes such as tire, oil, purchases, etc. While this is considered public, it is paid for by the users. The unfortunate bit of this is that all benefit from highways, while for the most part only the users pay.
> ...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

kickercoach said:


> The vast majority of roads are paid for by fuel and associated taxes such as tire, oil, purchases, etc. While this is considered public, it is paid for by the users. The unfortunate bit of this is that all benefit from highways, while for the most part only the users pay.


Everyone pays, some just pay indirectly. Even somebody who only walks everywhere pays highway taxes, because everything they buy is shipped by truck somewhere along the line and/or built by somebody who paid road taxes to get to work to produce that product. Any time you buy food, clothes, sports equipment, a car, or even a house, it includes the cost of getting the product where you purchased it, and part of that cost is the road tax. Everyone pays road taxes, even if just indirectly through the cost of the goods and services they buy.


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

Hey, here's a question. What sort of emissions output does a typical transport truck create?


----------



## cameron2pt5 (Oct 19, 2006)

phospher5 said:


> Hey, here's a question. What sort of emissions output does a typical transport truck create?


Per ton of payload, much less than other IC cars and LD trucks!


----------



## HK (Dec 4, 1999)

Wow.. Has there ever been a thread with more number of replies? ..not counting mine of course


----------



## firstorbit84 (Feb 25, 2006)

Seabird said:


> Ima jes drop dis righhh-cheyeeuh:
> 
> Mercedes diesel owners file new lawsuit in United States
> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/merce...lawsuit-united-states-081232611--finance.html
> ...


Please please please let this cause the value of diesel E-classes and GLs to drop.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

cameron2pt5 said:


> Per ton of payload, much less than other IC cars and LD trucks!


Yeah pretty much. While they're not as clean as LDVs per unit of horsepower, the emissions per mile-ton is probably very good. If you think about it, regular passenger cars are rarely rated for more than 500 pounds in the trunk. Something like a small diesel pickup truck will generally max out around a 2000 pound bed capacity, and might return 24mpg highway. While a fully loaded semi may only see 8mpg highway, it could be carrying 60,000 pounds of cargo. So for 33% of the fuel economy of a light truck, it's pulling 3000% the cargo load. Even if the smog-forming emissions are 3x higher per gallon on a semi, it would still be putting out less pollution per pound of cargo delivered. Heck, compared to a Prius it would be 1/6th the fuel economy and probably 20-40x the pollution per mile, but since it's carrying 120x as much load, heavy trucks still make more sense than shipping things by way of 120 Priuses.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

fiftysomething said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about. I just don't want some government agency telling me I can't enjoy the freedom of driving my own car.


And millennials get the heat for being whiny and entitled?


----------



## MonsterM (Aug 10, 2005)

This is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo blown out of proportion it is comical.


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

HK said:


> Wow.. Has there ever been a thread with more number of replies? ..not counting mine of course





MonsterM said:


> This is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo blown out of proportion it is comical.


And on top of that it's all speculation by the VW haterz aka everybody in this thread.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

*Is there really any debate about a loss in value?*

"The risk however with these so-called ABS notes is that investors may lose their appetite given a portion of the collateral backing some of the existing instruments likely include diesel cars affected by the fraud, which are losing value. Volkswagen’s Financial Services (VW FS) division itself has already booked 286 million euros in impairment charges last year to adjust for the lower resale values of such cars on lease."

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...-to-issuing-bonds-to-help-boost-vehicle-sales


As I mentioned previously, even VW acknowledges the loss in values.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

AZGolf said:


> Everyone pays, some just pay indirectly. Even somebody who only walks everywhere pays highway taxes, because everything they buy is shipped by truck somewhere along the line and/or built by somebody who paid road taxes to get to work to produce that product. Any time you buy food, clothes, sports equipment, a car, or even a house, it includes the cost of getting the product where you purchased it, and part of that cost is the road tax. Everyone pays road taxes, even if just indirectly through the cost of the goods and services they buy.



Ah, AZ Golf you get it. 

Trouble is, the less enlightened refuse to understand this, and have no problem jacking fuel/gas taxes to the masses of commuters who they content are the users, with no regard to their own costs. The road tax via goods prices is buried so far down in the noise, they never get the connection.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Chilcoot said:


> Almost seven months since VW's pollution fraud became widely known, and You'reDrunk's still arguing (unpersuasively) that VW's crime isn't killing people.
> 
> From September 24, 2015:
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

:facepalm: yet we're talking about 0.01% of all registered vehicles in the USA.....so again, it's NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL.

and somehow they've deduced that an additional 130 deaths annual from this 1 issue??? not buying it.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

You'reDrunk said:


> :facepalm: yet we're talking about 0.01% of all registered vehicles in the USA.....so again, it's NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL.
> 
> and somehow they've deduced that an additional 130 deaths annual from this 1 issue??? not buying it.


When the list of names directly associated with deaths caused by this scandal come out, I'll believe it. Til then, it's fear mongering horse ****. :wave: 

You shouldn't bother with people who make this crap up and try to say it's legit info.


You know, since the people they're talking about dying *already have pre-existing health conditions*.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> :facepalm: yet we're talking about 0.01% of all registered vehicles in the USA.....so again, it's NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL.
> 
> and somehow they've deduced that an additional 130 deaths annual from this 1 issue??? not buying it.
> 
> ...


yep...co-morbidities, lifestyle, location (including other dangers within their local area), drinking water, lead paint, etc.....sooooo many variables.

just fear mongering.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

You'reDrunk said:


> yep...co-morbidities, lifestyle, location (including other dangers within their local area), drinking water, lead paint, etc.....sooooo many variables.
> 
> just fear mongering.


Exactly.


And for the record, before people start yelling at me about stupid ****, we're not saying it isn't bad. This kinda **** is saying VW's scandal will be a contributing factor, not a direct cause. And, FYI, there's all kinds of **** that counts as contributing factors in our day to day lives, especially when it comes to vehicle emissions. Getting uppity over one manufacturer's emissions is laughable.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

It should be noted that MIT has attributed 200k 'pre-mature' deaths to pollution in the U.S., and even with them stating that 50+k of those early deaths are 'attributable' to transportation emission, coming up with a number such as 130 is a bit laugh below the margin of error and is nothing more than an educated guess utilizing their pre-existing algorithm that sorted out the thousands from the hundreds of thousands:



MIT said:


> To determine the number of early deaths from air pollution, the team first obtained emissions data from the Environmental Protection Agency’s National Emissions Inventory, a catalog of emissions sources nationwide. The researchers collected data from the year 2005, the most recent data available at the time of the study.
> 
> They then divided the data into six emissions sectors: electric power generation; industry; commercial and residential sources; road transportation; marine transportation; and rail transportation. Barrett’s team fed the emissions data from all six sources into an air-quality simulation of the impact of emissions on particles and gases in the atmosphere.
> 
> To see where emissions had the greatest impact, they removed each sector of interest from the simulation and observed the difference in pollutant concentrations. The team then overlaid the resulting pollutant data on population-density maps of the United States to observe which populations were most exposed to pollution from each source.


source: http://news.mit.edu/2013/study-air-pollution-causes-200000-early-deaths-each-year-in-the-us-0829


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

:laugh: if it doesnt kill you instantly by improperly blowing up in your face, it must not be a problem!

i assume both of you guys are smokers?

ive never seen anyone die immediately from a cigarette.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> :laugh: if it doesnt kill you instantly by improperly blowing up in your face, it must not be a problem!
> 
> i assume both of you guys are smokers?
> 
> ive never seen anyone die immediately from a cigarette.


No, it is a problem. Otherwise, the fuss about VW's scandal wouldn't have happened. 

People are saying VW's scandal will be responsible for x amount of deaths per year, as if it's the direct cause of their death. I'm simply calling it for the bull**** it is. Because it's not the direct cause, it's a contributing factor. And not a very big one, at that. These lists even mention that people who are most likely to be affected by this already have health problems. Whereas, for comparison, GM killed and severely injured otherwise healthy people. 

Anyone trying to make it seem like VW is directly responsible for people dying are sorely mistaken. As for their being a contributing factor, well, good luck getting this to stick in court. :beer:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Silly_me said:


> It should be noted that MIT has attributed 200k 'pre-mature' deaths to pollution in the U.S., and even with them stating that 50+k of those early deaths are 'attributable' to transportation emission, coming up with a number such as 130 is a bit laugh below the margin of error and is nothing more than an educated guess utilizing their pre-existing algorithm that sorted out the thousands from the hundreds of thousands:
> 
> 
> 
> source: http://news.mit.edu/2013/study-air-pollution-causes-200000-early-deaths-each-year-in-the-us-0829


So with all of this, how are they able to attribute specific deaths to one car manufacturer?


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> So with all of this, how are they able to attribute specific deaths to one car manufacturer?


because VW.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

You'reDrunk said:


> because VW.


I'm actually legitimately curious to know how they divided up the total number of cases attributable to automotive emissions and were able to accurately pinpoint how many specific number of deaths would be connected to VW.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

GoHomeBroke said:


> I'm actually legitimately curious to know how they divided up the total number of cases attributable to automotive emissions and were able to accurately pinpoint how many specific number of deaths would be connected to VW.


I am sure they didn't. they took a statistical analysis and said, if 0.01% of the vehicles added X tons of NOx to the air, it would theoretically affect X lives in such a way. but as was stated earlier, I'm sure the margin of error is greater than the sample....so it's insignificant.

since VW is the curx of the issue, they just pinned it on VW......


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

You'reDrunk said:


> they took a statistical analysis and said, if 0.01% of the vehicles added X tons of NOx to the air, it would theoretically affect X lives in such a way.


I'd also _assume_ they would have lumped the extra nox produced into urban areas where the pollutants would have the greatest impact, further skewing the data (seriously doubt they gave the effort to chart vehicle registrations to come up with the quick math click bait :laugh: ). 

A TDI in North Dakota isn't going to end anyone's life early, that's boredom's job :laugh:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> I'd also _assume_ they would have lumped the extra nox produced into urban areas where the pollutants would have the greatest impact, further skewing the data (seriously doubt they gave the effort to chart vehicle registrations to come up with the quick math click bait :laugh: ).
> 
> A TDI in *North Dakota *isn't going to end anyone's life early, that's boredom's job :laugh:


nope, it's all the shale oil fracking that will kill them there.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> No, it is a problem. Otherwise, the fuss about VW's scandal wouldn't have happened.
> 
> People are saying VW's scandal will be responsible for x amount of deaths per year, as if it's the direct cause of their death. I'm simply calling it for the bull**** it is. Because it's not the direct cause, it's a contributing factor. And not a very big one, at that. These lists even mention that people who are most likely to be affected by this already have health problems. Whereas, for comparison, GM killed and severely injured otherwise healthy people.
> 
> Anyone trying to make it seem like VW is directly responsible for people dying are sorely mistaken. As for their being a contributing factor, well, good luck getting this to stick in court. :beer:


The only reason the "but they didn't kill people" straw-man argument came up was because VW defenders were calling to GM's penalties "and they killed people" as proof that VW was being unfairly penalized.

And for the record- the ignition issue on GM's vehicles was also just a contributing factor to the deaths attributed.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

BRealistic said:


> The only reason the "but they didn't kill people" straw-man argument came up was because VW defenders were calling to GM's penalties "and they killed people" as proof that VW was being unfairly penalized.
> 
> And for the record- the ignition issue on GM's vehicles was also just a contributing factor to the deaths attributed.





> And for the record- the ignition issue on GM's vehicles was also just a contributing factor to the deaths attributed.


Actually, it was the direct cause.

These people died because all the power assisted systems shut off when the keys became loose, along with the airbags. Thus, they were unable to steer, brake, or do anything to avoid crashing and dying. Why did the keys become loose? The faulty ignition switches.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

You'reDrunk said:


> nope, it's all the shale oil fracking that will kill them there.


GawtdamTeslas!


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

GoHomeBroke said:


> Actually, it was the direct cause.
> 
> These people died because all the power assisted systems shut off when the keys became loose, along with the airbags. Thus, they were unable to steer, brake, or do anything to avoid crashing and dying. Why did the keys become loose? The faulty ignition switches.


I thought it was mostly people who overloaded their key rings with crap that caused the issue to manifest.


----------



## ajd187 (Feb 6, 2012)

You'reDrunk said:


> because VW.


Yup. And also don't forget all those heavy duty GM, Ford, and Dodge trucks putting out all that NOx that make the TDIs look like an electric vehicle charged on power generated by a home solar station emissions wise.

But we dont' talk about those because Murica.


----------



## CostcoPizza (Jan 20, 2008)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> :laugh: if it doesnt kill you instantly by improperly blowing up in your face, it must not be a problem!
> 
> i assume both of you guys are smokers?
> 
> ive never seen anyone die immediately from a cigarette.


Silly_me is from Kentucky, the state with the highest % of smokers, so your guess isn't too far fetched. :laugh:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

NeverEnoughCars said:


> I thought it was mostly people who overloaded their key rings with crap that caused the issue to manifest.


Funny how no other manufacturer had that issue. Funny how it wasn't an issue til early 2000's. And it's funny how it took over a decade for them to come clean and fix it. 

Funny, ain't it?


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

GoHomeBroke said:


> Funny how no other manufacturer had that issue. Funny how it wasn't an issue til early 2000's. And it's funny how it took over a decade for them to come clean and fix it.
> 
> Funny, ain't it?


Funny how this completely unrelated topic keeps getting brought up in this thread like it's somehow relevant.

Funny huh?


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

BRealistic said:


> Funny how this completely unrelated topic keeps getting brought up in this thread like it's somehow relevant.
> 
> Funny huh?


This just in: conversations about one topic sometimes branch out to include other topics. more at 11.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

CostcoPizza said:


> Silly_me is from Kentucky, the state with the highest % of smokers, so your guess isn't too far fetched. :laugh:


Even if I did smoke his ad hominem response had absolutely no bearing on the data I provided from M.I.T. and how incredibly ridiculous it would be to assume that '130 early deaths' out of 50k+ was somehow scientifically proven and nothing more than a guess.

How many polar bears will loose their homes and go on state funded Sealfare in response to the 4.75 million metric tons of greenhouse gases produced by Hyundai's lie warming our planet? But since you are in KC there might be a good chance you don't believe in evolution or global warming


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Silly_me said:


> Even if I did smoke his ad hominem response had absolutely no bearing on the data I provided from M.I.T. and how incredibly ridiculous it would be to assume that '130 early deaths' out of 50k+ was somehow scientifically proven and nothing more than a guess.
> 
> How many polar bears will loose their homes and go on state funded Sealfare in response to the 4.75 million metric tons of greenhouse gases produced by Hyundai's lie warming our planet? *But since you are in KC there might be a good chance you don't believe in evolution or global warming*


rekt. :laugh:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

I approve of the new direction of this thread. :thumbup:




:laugh:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Costco Pizza is good, especially if you put 40x's more cheese on it. 

Sometimes 40x's more of something is a good thing.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

aj4066 said:


> Costco Pizza is good, especially if you put 40x's more cheese on it.
> 
> Sometimes 40x's more of something is a good thing.


 do you realize just how many people die everyday from 40X more cheese!?!?!?!!?!?!? It unpossible!


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

You'reDrunk said:


> do you realize just how many people die everyday from 40X more cheese!?!?!?!!?!?!? It unpossible!


I know that cheese and beer are taking years off my life but I do not care. 
But lying about emissions on something that will not be a noticeable contribution to my death causes me to grab the pitchfork and torches.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Actually, they now say that beer is good for you. 

http://www.menshealth.com/health/have-a-beer


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

"Actually, it was the direct cause."

Foul.....

Another review is in order. Air bags are a passive/supplemental restraint system. Never intended to work, at their utmost utility with out the use of the primary restraint system. Primary restraint system = Seatbelt 

A review of cases shows that a significant number of the deaths were caused by, you guessed it, no seatbelt in use. This also excludes another significant number of cases where wildly excessive speed, DUI, etc. were primary factors. 



These people died because all the power assisted systems shut off when the keys became loose, along with the airbags. Thus, they were unable to steer, brake, or do anything to avoid crashing and dying. Why did the keys become loose? The faulty ignition switches. 

Last time I checked steering, and brakes do not stop working if the key switches to Acc. Only the power assist stops working. 

There was a time when in driver's education, the instructor would switch off the engine so the student was able to experience an emergency engine off scenario. It just gets harder to steer and you have to push a little harder to brake. [/COLOR]
[/QUOTE]


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

aj4066 said:


> Actually, they now say that beer is good for you.
> 
> http://www.menshealth.com/health/have-a-beer


duh! :laugh:


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

GoHomeBroke said:


> So with all of this, how are they able to attribute specific deaths to one car manufacturer?


Honestly, it's really a moot point, IMO. How many people died or didn't die as a result of the non-compliance, or the size of VW's impact on total US NOx emissions is beside the point at this phase of the process.

VW knew what the law required. If they didn't like the law or didn't think it was technologically achievable, they should've lobbied Congress or made the decision to not sell diesels in the US. The US EPA and CARB can't be expected to give VW a pass (especially after the fact) just because the automaker is small in size or the health impact is small/difficult to quantify. The law is the law. If the EPA and CARB don't enforce the law, especially under the current scheme of self-certification, then those agencies lose their effective regulatory power with nearly all other automakers.

I'm sure the severity and scope of the infraction will be considered when fines are assessed.


----------



## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

You'reDrunk said:


> do you realize just how many people die everyday from 40X more cheese!?!?!?!!?!?!? It unpossible!



It wouldn't surprise me in the least if some hysterical, paranoid food Nazi is out there right now attempting to calculate an alleged estimate.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

> When monetizing premature mortality using EPA-recommended data, the excess emissions have exacted a social cost of ~$450m over the sales period.


I think that's the significant detail here. Talking about imposing multiple billions of dollars in damages over (a likely inflated) $450m in social cost. That's less than $1000 per car.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

kickercoach said:


> "Actually, it was the direct cause."
> 
> Foul.....
> 
> ...


Given your lack of ability to properly quote, I'm gonna guess this:


> Last time I checked steering, and brakes do not stop working if the key switches to Acc. Only the power assist stops working.


is you.

The keys didn't switch to Accessory, they became loose because the internals of the ignition switch were faulty and the key would slide out of it's intended position. 



> There was a time when in driver's education, the instructor would switch off the engine so the student was able to experience an emergency engine off scenario. It just gets harder to steer and you have to push a little harder to brake.


And given that 124 people died, with 250+ more severely injured, I'm gonna say none of these people had that training. So this whole "it just gets harder to drive it" **** really doesn't mean anything.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

fiftysomething said:


> It wouldn't surprise me in the least if some hysterical, paranoid food Nazi is out there right now attempting to calculate an alleged estimate.


Someone Googled it, I am sure. :screwy:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

I had a feeling someone would create a book or some Netflix show about this diesel scandal, but expected it to be from some left wing nut-job about how VW has single handily destroyed the air. 

Anyways, there is someone creating a documentary over Dieselgate. For those of you who feel as though you have lost the world over your car and this diesel issue, they may have a hot seat for you on this film. 
http://www.motortrend.com/news/vw-dealer-producing-diesel-scandal-documentary/



> Steve Kalafer has been a Volkswagen dealer for almost 23 years. And unfortunately for Volkswagen, Kalafer also happens to be an Oscar-nominated filmmaker who has begun work on a documentary focusing on the automaker’s diesel emissions scandal.
> 
> According to Automotive News, Kalafer’s film, “Backfire: The Volkswagen Fraud of the Century,” will include testimonies and stories from those impacted by Volkswagen’s diesel crisis, including customers, dealers, and lawmakers. Kalafer also plans to interview previous VW executives and researchers from West Virginia University who uncovered the scandal.
> 
> ...


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

aj4066 said:


> Backfire: The Volkswagen Fraud of the Century


_*Starring:*

Steve Martin as Matthias Müller

Kevin Bacon as Michael Horn

Patton Oswalt as Judge Charles Breyer

Helen Mirren as Gina McCarthy

Bill Nighy as Volkmar Denner

Kevin James as bereaved TDI owner #7

Woody Harrelson as angry Audi owner

Benicio del Toro as the Hitman

and Jack Nicholson as Ferdinand Piëch_


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

GoHomeBroke said:


> Given your lack of ability to properly quote, I'm gonna guess this:
> 
> is you.
> 
> ...


To help from the recall notice:

The cars covered are model years:
◾2003-2007 Saturn Ion
◾2005-2010 Chevrolet Cobalt 
◾2006-2010 Pontiac Solstice
◾2007-2010 Pontiac G5
◾2007-2010 Saturn Sky
◾2006-2011 Chevrolet HHR

All of these cars were recalled in recent weeks for ignition switches that may fail to meet GM’s torque specification. The ignition switch may unintentionally move from the “run” position to the...

“accessory” or “off” position with a corresponding reduction or loss of power...

This risk may be increased if the key ring is carrying added weight or if the vehicle goes off the road or experiences some other jarring event. The timing of the key movement out of the “run” position, relative to the activation of the sensing algorithm of the crash event, may result in the airbags not deploying, increasing the potential for occupant injury in certain kinds of crashes. 

There was a time that if you couldn't handle an emergency condition then you could not pass drivers education. Are you in that class of driver too? Just wondering. The point being, should GM be responsible for inadequate training or skills? I would say, if you can not steer a car in a loss of power condition, then maybe you should not be behind the wheel. So it does mean something, incompetent vs. competent.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

kickercoach said:


> There was a time that if you couldn't handle an emergency condition then you could not pass drivers education. Are you in that class of driver too? Just wondering. The point being, should GM be responsible for inadequate training or skills? I would say, if you can not steer a car in a loss of power condition, then maybe you should not be behind the wheel. So it does mean something, incompetent vs. competent.


What are you going on about? The freakin' airbags don't deploy in a failure situation and no amount of driving "competence" will ever change that.


----------



## tacticalbeaver (Apr 27, 2006)

If the key turns to the "off" position, won't the steering wheel lock too?

Back on topic, I am getting tired of waiting to hear a solution. Heck, even knowing that VW has submitted a proposal for review would be nice at this point. I get the feeling that it will end up being a year since the news first broke before owners find out what's going to happen.


----------



## Elite_Deforce (Nov 18, 2012)

seftonm said:


> If the key turns to the "off" position, won't the steering wheel lock too?
> 
> Back on topic, I am getting tired of waiting to hear a solution. Heck, even knowing that VW has submitted a proposal for review would be nice at this point. I get the feeling that it will end up being a year since the news first broke before owners find out what's going to happen.


What did you expect


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

On topic:

*Can VW, agencies meet April 21 diesel-fix deadline? EPA head not sure*



Green Car Reports said:


> Apr 12, 2016
> 
> Nine days remain until the deadline imposed by a judge for Volkswagen and two regulatory agencies to agree on the outline of a plan to modify vehicles affected by the diesel-emission scandal.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> On topic:
> 
> *Can VW, agencies meet April 21 diesel-fix deadline? EPA head not sure*


The difference in me and whoever wrote this? 

The author says "in doubt' while I interpret this, especially with "robust talks," as a good chance it'll finally be resolved. Gina says it remains "unclear," so to me, that's a 50/50 chance at worst.

"In doubt" means less than that. 

Admittedly, I want it to be resolved and therefore see the pros to this news, but the author, by inserting "In doubt" as opposed to mirroring Gina's comment that it instead "remains unclear" deliberately puts a negative connotation to the article, and stuff like this is exactly how the media not only contradicts itself, but also spreads negativity like an aggressive cancer.


----------



## vwlifer27 (Jun 15, 2005)

I will bebe kinda ticked when VW gets charged more than BP just did from the Gulf spill a few years back. That was just settled for 5 billion, and that killed 11 people and did way more environmental damage than the TDI scandal. But, it's America and we need our oil money, so I'm sure they were let off easy and VW will get hammered.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> On topic:


Who in the hell do you think you are.....On topic? :screwy:

I've only been participating in TCL for a short time, but know that threads don't stay on topic.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

vwlifer27 said:


> I will bebe kinda ticked when VW gets charged more than BP


If it comes to that I promise not to wake you before I gogo.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> On topic:
> 
> *Can VW, agencies meet April 21 diesel-fix deadline? EPA head not sure*


Last week's news. 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...0-vehicles&p=95151282&viewfull=1#post95151282

Dieselgate news has been pretty quiet this week.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Only recent dieselgate news:

*VW says management bonuses to be cut significantly*



> FRANKFURT -- Volkswagen Group Chairman Hans Dieter Poetsch and other top executives will have their 2015 bonus payments cut "significantly," the automaker said today.
> 
> VW's second-largest shareholder - the German state of Lower Saxony - wants management bonuses to be scrapped altogether while VW's powerful labor leaders have also been pushing for bonuses to be scrapped or lowered as the automaker counts the multi-billion-euro costs of its emissions-rigging scandal.
> 
> ...


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Cash payout bonuses cut, but I am sure they will receive a hefty bonus in stocks. 

That may not make the yacht payment next month, but in 10 years when dieselgate is no longer thought of, it will be worth a couple of yachts.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

I like when the EPA head describes the talks as "really robust" as if we are reading a recap of the Top Chef season premiere.

Lemon zest and foie gras, anyone?


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

heh. seems to be a good option if you bought one recent.



> Lemon Law board decides to move forward with the case. #DavidvsGoliath
> 
> Volkswagen once again asking to dismiss this diesel Lemon Law case. #DavidvsGoliath Third case in Florida.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> I had a feeling someone would create a book or some Netflix show about this diesel scandal, but expected it to be from some left wing nut-job about how VW has single handily destroyed the air.
> 
> Anyways, there is someone creating a documentary over Dieselgate. For those of you who feel as though you have lost the world over your car and this diesel issue, they may have a hot seat for you on this film.
> http://www.motortrend.com/news/vw-dealer-producing-diesel-scandal-documentary/


Another article on the movie:
*here's a VW diesel scandal movie coming...made by a VW dealer*




> *'Backfire' seeks 'to tell the truth' about the Volkswagen diesel scandal
> *
> Filmmaker Steve Kalafer, a three-time Oscar nominee, is at work on a documentary about Volkswagen's diesel emissions crisis, a project that's close to home.
> 
> ...


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

why is there a mk4 on the title page?



spockcat said:


> Another article on the movie:
> *here's a VW diesel scandal movie coming...made by a VW dealer*


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

PolishSasquatch said:


> why is there a mk4 on the title page?


because the 1.8T can nevAr loose??


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

PolishSasquatch said:


> why is there a mk4 on the title page?


What makes you think a dealer knows his products?


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

PolishSasquatch said:


> why is there a mk4 on the title page?


:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:


----------



## csr67 (Oct 24, 2003)

Did anyone get a "buy back" survey from a law firm? I read about this on another forum and it looks interesting... Is this simply lawyers stringing clients along or could there actually be some buyback discussions in the works? Here's a link to the survey questions:

https://www.reddit.com/r/tdi/comments/4byc4y/just_got_a_hagens_berman_survey/


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

If my memory serves me right, the person handling the possible smooth-over for customers says that he will leave VW customers pleased. 

A buyback of pre-sept 15 numbers plus 20% would be gracious, in my opinion.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

aj4066 said:


> A buyback of pre-sept 15 numbers plus 20% would be gracious, in my opinion.


"Gracious"? Thanks for the spit-take. :laugh:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

aj4066 said:


> he will leave VW customers pleased


How much viagra and red bull will it take to power through half a million reach'arounds?


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Silly_me said:


> How much viagra and red bull will it take to power through half a million reach'arounds?


Hella.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

289 pages and still polluting...

For what it's worth, I still enjoy driving ours. I figure we have 2+ years to wait until the earliest window our Model III might be delivered, so as long as they have a fix by then...:facepalm:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Oh yeah, today is the 18th of the month.

* Happy 7 Month Anniversary, TDI Scandal!*


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

^And 3 more days until more rabbling as the "next deadline" comes and goes.... :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Fast forward 3 days - 
HEADLINE: 
"Really Robust Talks, says EPA and CARB about VW Scandal, More Details to Work Out"


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

Ricky Bobby said:


> ^And 3 more days until more rabbling as the "next deadline" comes and goes.... :laugh::laugh::laugh:
> 
> Fast forward 3 days -
> HEADLINE:
> "Really Robust Talks, says EPA and CARB about VW Scandal, More Details to Work Out"


I can't imagine for the life of me that we'll get anything else. Really hoping we're all wrong.


----------



## LieutenantShinySides (May 4, 2007)

If they do wind up taking the cars back, it would be rad if they could wait until September/Octoberish when the Alltrack comes out. :wave:


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

LieutenantShinySides said:


> If they do wind up taking the cars back, it would be rad if they could wait until September/Octoberish when the Alltrack comes out. :wave:


Yeah...thats why they are taking so long...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

LieutenantShinySides said:


> If they do wind up taking the cars back, it would be rad if they could wait until September/Octoberish when the Alltrack comes out. :wave:


I get the feeling that if they do a buyback, it will take 1-2 years for them to complete all the buybacks anyway. Didn't they give 4-6 months for the $500+$500 goodwill package? That was a comparatively small amount of money and I think it runs November-April. A full on automotive buyback will probably give owners even more time to get signed up and turn their cars in than the goodwill package.


----------



## LieutenantShinySides (May 4, 2007)

Phil Pugliese said:


> Yeah...thats why they are taking so long...


I never suggested that, I was merely stating my own selfish desires if a buy back ever happens. 



AZGolf said:


> I get the feeling that if they do a buyback, it will take 1-2 years for them to complete all the buybacks anyway. Didn't they give 4-6 months for the $500+$500 goodwill package? That was a comparatively small amount of money and I think it runs November-April. A full on automotive buyback will probably give owners even more time to get signed up and turn their cars in than the goodwill package.


You're probably right.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

LieutenantShinySides said:


> If they do wind up taking the cars back, it would be rad if they could wait until September/Octoberish when the Alltrack comes out. :wave:


Zero chance you will have to sell your car to them before September so buying more of their products will work out perfectly for you (and them).


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Pressure mounts as VW faces crucial deadlines*



> FRANKFURT -- Normally Volkswagen Group would be gearing up to publish its first-quarter results this week. But the world’s second largest automaker hasn’t known "normal" since it admitted in late September that up to 11 million of its diesel cars worldwide had been rigged to cheat emissions tests.
> 
> Instead VW has postponed publication of the results until May 31 to prepare for its moment of truth.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Cheating code words complicate VW's emissions probe, report says*



> FRANKFURT -- Investigators probing Volkswagen Group's diesel-emissions cheating are struggling to make headway through data secured from more than 1,500 laptops that includes obscure company code words, according to people familiar with the status of the investigation.
> 
> This means it's unlikely there will be a complete report on the carmaker's emissions cheating by the end of the month when VW is due to report 2015 earnings, the people added.
> 
> ...


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

VW pays off the EPA/CARB in some sort of credit. The cars don't get touched. We all sue. 

The end.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Phil Pugliese said:


> Yeah...thats why they are taking so long...


it's taking so long, because (from what I've been told and posted here) the EPA has given VW an "all or nothing" ultimatum. so it's taking them longer to resolve. Part of that is to either fix all the cars (and approved working by the EPA), and/or a buyback plan. VW was working more on the fix than the buyback....and thus why it's dragged out. 

it will be interesting to see what the courts come up with.

BTW - did anyone notice that the 24th is a Sunday????


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

Well, now that you mention it... I do see that the 24th is Sunday. Not sure of the significance with the deadline being April 21st though. :laugh:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

thegoose said:


> Well, now that you mention it... I do see that the 24th is Sunday. Not sure of the significance with the deadline being April 21st though. :laugh:


D'oh!


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

aj4066 said:


> If my memory serves me right, the person handling the possible smooth-over for customers says that he will leave VW customers pleased.
> 
> A buyback of pre-sept 15 numbers plus 20% would be gracious, in my opinion.


That is not gracious. That is insanity. 



Keep checking back hoping that there is some real news...


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

This issue still with no resolution but ironically this thread is....


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

MCTB said:


> That is not gracious. That is insanity.
> 
> Keep checking back hoping that there is some real news...


To get pre-Sept '15 dollar plus 20% would be like getting nearly full price for the car. 

If you want to continue to complain about 'what they did to you', hope on the lawsuit wagon.


Edit: Page 290 without a resolution. :screwy::thumbup:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

*VW Emissions Scandal May Go Back As Far As 1999*



Fortune Magazine said:


> That revelation is the latest in a scandal that investigators are struggling to make sense of.
> 
> Volkswagen is struggling to meet its own self-imposed deadline for explaining its emissions scandal—which may have roots that go farther back than previously thought.
> 
> ...


So who was running Audi in 1999?


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

.yuk. said:


> VW pays off the EPA/CARB in some sort of credit. The cars don't get touched. We all sue.
> 
> The end.


Yeah, your probably right.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

aj4066 said:


> To get pre-Sept '15 dollar plus 20% would be like getting nearly full price for the car.
> 
> If you want to continue to complain about 'what they did to you', hope on the lawsuit wagon.


They havent done anything to me. Pre- Sept 15 fair market value is easy to ascertain and would be fair. My sister was about to put hers on the market (in California, no less). Now she cannot without taking a bath on the value. Market value is all she wants. +20% is just greedy.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

And thats why I called it gracious.


----------



## ByronLLN (Jul 29, 2004)

MCTB said:


> *Market *value is all she wants. +20% is just greedy.


Can of worms identified.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

ByronLLN said:


> Can of worms identified.


Eliminate with prejudice.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

dmorrow said:


> Zero chance you will have to sell your car to them before September so buying more of their products will work out perfectly for you (and them).


I was actually thinking about the buyback issue today and considering how long it could take to physically buyback and process 400,000 to 500,000 cars. 

I would assume that dealers would be the contact point for owners who would be selling their cars back. With about 600 dealers in the USA, this would mean that the average dealer would have to handle 660 to 830 cars. Imagine the time, personnel and physical space needed to store all those cars until transports can carry them somewhere else. This clearly isn't a process that can be handled in a short period of time. So even if the EPA and VW agree on a buyback as the ultimate solution, the logistics alone could take 6 months.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

ByronLLN said:


> Can of worms identified.


Very big one at that. So big, I'm not sure an adequate solution will ever be had


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

spockcat said:


> I was actually thinking about the buyback issue today and considering how long it could take to physically buyback and process 400,000 to 500,000 cars.
> 
> I would assume that dealers would be the contact point for owners who would be selling their cars back. With about 600 dealers in the USA, this would mean that the average dealer would have to handle 660 to 830 cars. Imagine the time, personnel and physical space needed to store all those cars until transports can carry them somewhere else. This clearly isn't a process that can be handled in a short period of time. So even if the EPA and VW agree on a buyback as the ultimate solution, the logistics alone could take 6 months.


Considering VWoA doesn't even _sell_ 400,000 cars in a year, I think it's fair to say it would take quite a while to buy back 400,000 or more of them in anything less than a year.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

spockcat said:


> I was actually thinking about the buyback issue today and considering how long it could take to physically buyback and process 400,000 to 500,000 cars.
> 
> I would assume that dealers would be the contact point for owners who would be selling their cars back. With about 600 dealers in the USA, this would mean that the average dealer would have to handle 660 to 830 cars. Imagine the time, personnel and physical space needed to store all those cars until transports can carry them somewhere else. This clearly isn't a process that can be handled in a short period of time. So even if the EPA and VW agree on a buyback as the ultimate solution, the logistics alone could take 6 months.


I don't think it will be a buyback of all 600K cars. I think the newer cars that already have Urea tanks can feasibly be modifed. I think it is the older cars, 09-10-11(?) that might be bought back. The question becomes at what price, Market prior to September? Market plus a percentage? Full selling price? Personally, I don't think just market price is fair and enough. Many of us had no intentions of making a purchase at this point and would be forced into one. There needs to be something for our inconvenience becsue there is no other car that will do what these cars have done for us and what we have bought into. Mileage, space, drivability, green, and resale value.


----------



## crxgat0r (Dec 20, 2002)

I hope there isn't a buyback as I still want an a3 hatch. 

However, if they do it should be retail price from September of last year + something for the inconvenience. They should also be forced to pay for any maintenance that occurred within the past two years as well. 

I guess I'll stick with my BRM Jetta for a while until this ends. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Phil Pugliese said:


> I don't think it will be a buyback of all 600K cars. I think the newer cars that already have Urea tanks can feasibly be modifed. I think it is the older cars, 09-10-11(?) that might be bought back. The question becomes at what price, Market prior to September? Market plus a percentage? Full selling price? Personally, I don't think just market price is fair and enough. Many of us had no intentions of making a purchase at this point and would be forced into one. There needs to be something for our inconvenience becsue there is no other car that will do what these cars have done for us and what we have bought into. Mileage, space, drivability, green, and resale value.


Which models use Urea are a bit confusing. It doesn't seem to be by a set year. But rather some models got it much earlier than others (Passat maybe and Touareg). But it seems other models such as the Golf and Jetta didn't get Urea until 2015 model year. 



AZGolf said:


> Considering VWoA doesn't even _sell_ 400,000 cars in a year, I think it's fair to say it would take quite a while to buy back 400,000 or more of them in anything less than a year.


That is what I was thinking. At least the car carriers won't be going back to the port empty if they do buybacks.


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

aj4066 said:


> To get pre-Sept '15 dollar plus 20% would be like getting nearly full price for the car.


Maybe this is a good deal if you have a 2015 car.

In September 2015, our 2010 Jetta TDI would have been 5 years old. Edmunds estimates that, on average, after five years a car is worth 37% of its original price. Add 20% and we get 57%.

Original price was $28812. 57% of that is $16422. That's an absurd and unacceptable compensation for someone who maintains a car well, and plans to keep it for at least 10 or 15 years. And, of course, this calculation does not even include the money spent on interest if the car was financed.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

julianv said:


> Maybe this is a good deal if you have a 2015 car.
> 
> In September 2015, our 2010 Jetta TDI would have been 5 years old. Edmunds estimates that, on average, after five years a car is worth 37% of its original price. Add 20% and we get 57%.
> 
> Original price was $28812. 57% of that is $16422. That's an absurd and unacceptable compensation for someone who maintains a car well, and plans to keep it for at least 10 or 15 years. And, of course, this calculation does not even include the money spent on interest if the car was financed.


If you live in an area that doesn't do testing, then keep your car and go on with your life and drive the wheels off of your diesel Jetta. If you live in a smog or testing area, you are screwed. Hop in a lawsuit, thats what they are there for. 

For anyone else, getting $16k for a car that is 6 years old seems pretty damn good for both the car and compensation for your loss. Your maintenance money and money it costs you to borrow money is in the tank. You would have never gotten that back had you sold the car outright anyway. I realize that you probably don't want to give up your car, but blame VW. It was pure deception from day #1, if you view it that way. 

On the flip side, VW could also offer you another EPA compliant diesel with a very generous trade offer on your current coal roller. If you like your diesel that much, you could walk into another one for a very, very good deal. `

For some, as MCTB pointed out, market value plus 20% is greed. To you, it's a tease at what they should be offering.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

spockcat said:


> I was actually thinking about the buyback issue today and considering how long it could take to physically buyback and process 400,000 to 500,000 cars.
> 
> I would assume that dealers would be the contact point for owners who would be selling their cars back. With about 600 dealers in the USA, this would mean that the average dealer would have to handle 660 to 830 cars. Imagine the time, personnel and physical space needed to store all those cars until transports can carry them somewhere else. This clearly isn't a process that can be handled in a short period of time. So even if the EPA and VW agree on a buyback as the ultimate solution, the logistics alone could take 6 months.


That number assumes that every single car will be bought back or fixed. Some have been crashed and some won't get fixed. 

My thought, many VW owners probably won't go back to a VW if a buyback is mandatory. VW doing a buyback and floating money to another brand is probably something that is in talks. As mentioned, it would take years to funnel through the amount of cars that will need to come back, if VW did some sort of exchange within their own brand.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

In other news, it sounds as though we may hear a resolution tomorrow. 

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...sions-fix-progress-makes-court-trial-unneeded



Auto News said:


> SAN FRANCISCO -- Volkswagen AG said there will be no need for a trial this summer over damages related to its rigging of 600,000 diesel vehicles to cheat pollution control laws.
> 
> The carmaker does “not believe” an expedited trial will be necessary after the company updates a judge April 21 on its proposed solution to address the polluting vehicles, the company said in an agenda for the hearing.
> 
> ...


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Et tu Mitsubishi?



> *Mitsubishi admits fuel economy rigging*
> 
> Japanese car maker has announced misconduct in fuel economy tests; shares fell 15% overnight
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> That number assumes that every single car will be bought back or fixed. Some have been crashed and some won't get fixed.
> 
> My thought, many VW owners probably won't go back to a VW if a buyback is mandatory. VW doing a buyback and floating money to another brand is probably something that is in talks. As mentioned, it would take years to funnel through the amount of cars that will need to come back, if VW did some sort of exchange within their own brand.


Unless CARB agrees to allow the TDIs to remain on the road without a fix, owners in states that follow CARB emissions regulations wouldn't be allowed to register their cars. Especially when you read the last statement in the article you posted above:




> Fix possible?
> 
> Volkswagen and U.S. regulators have expressed doubt as to whether the cars can be fixed at all. A California regulator in March told state legislators it was unclear if a solution aside from scrapping the vehicles was possible
> 
> ...


According to google, those states are:



> States adopting the California standards include Arizona (2012 model year), Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico (2011 model year), New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington, as well as the District of Columbia.


----------



## tacticalbeaver (Apr 27, 2006)

VW may submit their plans tomorrow, but I'm not sure if we get to hear the plan until it's reviewed and approved or rejected.


----------



## ajd187 (Feb 6, 2012)

julianv said:


> Maybe this is a good deal if you have a 2015 car.
> 
> In September 2015, our 2010 Jetta TDI would have been 5 years old. Edmunds estimates that, on average, after five years a car is worth 37% of its original price. Add 20% and we get 57%.
> 
> Original price was $28812. 57% of that is $16422. That's an absurd and unacceptable compensation for someone who maintains a car well, and plans to keep it for at least 10 or 15 years. And, of course, this calculation does not even include the money spent on interest if the car was financed.


$16422 for a 5 year old TDI??? that's probably an absurd and unacceptable compensation. But in the opposite direction of the one you are thinking of....

Finance cost is money lost. That was between you and the bank and has nothing to do with VW...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

ajd187 said:


> $16422 for a 5 year old TDI??? that's probably an absurd and unacceptable compensation. But in the opposite direction of the one you are thinking of....


Haven't you been keeping up with this forum? VW TDIs are an appreciating asset. They only go up in value once driven off the showroom floor.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Allowing the vehicles to remain on the road will send a clear signal that cheating is perfectly okay. 

I am very doubtful that they allow the cars to stay on the road.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

spockcat said:


> I was actually thinking about the buyback issue today and considering how long it could take to physically buyback and process 400,000 to 500,000 cars.
> 
> I would assume that dealers would be the contact point for owners who would be selling their cars back. With about 600 dealers in the USA, this would mean that the average dealer would have to handle 660 to 830 cars. Imagine the time, personnel and physical space needed to store all those cars until transports can carry them somewhere else. This clearly isn't a process that can be handled in a short period of time. So even if the EPA and VW agree on a buyback as the ultimate solution, the logistics alone could take 6 months.


As some say they may only buy back a portion, say half and the number you posted drop to 330 to 415 cars per dealer. If each dealer got three cars per week, even at the 330 number would take 110 weeks or over 2 years or the 415 would take 138 weeks or over 2 1/2 years. Not like all of the current owners are going to line up to get rid of their cars and get their money as they have logistics problems of their own like needing the money to get another car.

The logistics of even doing this would take years and from VW's standpoint the longer it takes the less the cars are worth, the better it is for them. Even from last September until when this process gets started could have hundreds of thousands of cars losing a model year of value. Then every year some percentage get totaled, which lessons the total number to deal with.

So it they are taking back 3 cars a week (half the cars) and fixing the other half at 3 cars a week (on average - probably a lot more in the beginning) the fix also takes over two years. Fixing them would also take a lot of time as normal service is still going on so all of this is additional work, not like there is a bunch of open garages waiting to be filled.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> Allowing the vehicles to remain on the road will send a clear signal that cheating is perfectly okay.


How so? It's not like VW won't be penalized.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

spockcat said:


> Unless CARB agrees to allow the TDIs to remain on the road without a fix, owners in states that follow CARB emissions regulations wouldn't be allowed to register their cars. Especially when you read the last statement in the article you posted above:
> 
> According to google, those states are:


Actually I believe California is one of the only states that requires cars to have all recalls performed in order to be registered. Following California emissions is a reference to their LEV standard instead of EPA's Tier standards. It does not mean that each state with California emissions standards also has a law on the books to prevent registrations of vehicles that haven't performed recalls. In fact there was an article on that topic last year and I believe California is the only state with such a law on the books.


----------



## Maroon (Apr 10, 2014)

It's not the owner's fault. California can't just arbitrarily take all these people off the road. Politics, people, politics....


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Maroon said:


> It's not the owner's fault. California can't just arbitrarily take all these people off the road. Politics, people, politics....


As i live in California and have 2 TDI's that I intended to keep for 15 to 20 years, I'd be OK with Calif. letting me continue to drive the cars and fining VW for every year they don't offer me a suitable replacement that1) performs as well, 2) is reliable, and 3) gets the same or better mileage. And if that doesn't happen for 15 years, so be it . . . 

Gives VW incentive to find a suitable replacement, quickly, and I can continue to drive the car I bought the the use I intended.


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> Actually I believe California is one of the only states that requires cars to have all recalls performed in order to be registered. Following California emissions is a reference to their LEV standard instead of EPA's Tier standards. It does not mean that each state with California emissions standards also has a law on the books to prevent registrations of vehicles that haven't performed recalls. In fact there was an article on that topic last year and I believe California is the only state with such a law on the books.


i'm not 100% sure how the law is enforced. if you transfer a car into your name, the recalls must be performed, but if you are just renewing they don't make you go do a recall prior to getting new tags.

i assume it might just be different for emission related recalls, but i've ignored numerous recalls over the years and never had trouble getting my new tags.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Hajduk said:


> How so? It's not like VW won't be penalized.


What? We demand _our_ pound of flesh! And money, yeah money, and to be able to keep our cars, or have them bought back at gracious levels of money! And clean up the seals while they are at it, and express some polar bear butts, and then feed clean seals to expressed bears. And then push expressed bears into the warm ocean for a dip. And use a little bit of our money to buy a t-shirt that said we helped expressed bears eat clean seals and have a clean bath. A fat wallet, a shame shame on you VW ad campaign, and we might consider ourselves being satisfied.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Hajduk said:


> How so? It's not like VW won't be penalized.


So pay a fine and have a noncompliant vehicle? Sounds like a great way to open the flood gates to break the law. 

I'd feel bad for those who want to modify their vehicle to drive a few thousand miles a year but can't due to epa and carb regulations. Meanwhile, a VW that gets driven 15,000+ miles per year drives along without issue.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> So pay a fine and have a noncompliant vehicle? Sounds like a great way to open the flood gates to break the law.
> 
> I'd feel bad for those who want to modify their vehicle to drive a few thousand miles a year but can't due to epa and carb regulations. Meanwhile, a VW that gets driven 15,000+ miles per year drives along without issue.


Well it all depends on how much the fine is? Doesn't it?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

aj4066 said:


> So pay a fine and have a noncompliant vehicle? Sounds like a great way to open the flood gates to break the law.


Yeah, it would be best if you didn't look at the EPA track record with penalizing companies that break the law :laugh:


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

aj4066 said:


> So pay a fine and have a noncompliant vehicle? Sounds like a great way to open the flood gates to break the law.


This is how emissions already works in most places. There's a limit to how much money they can force you to spend before they just let you continue polluting until the next test.


----------



## Strikelin (Jan 4, 2009)

julianv said:


> Maybe this is a good deal if you have a 2015 car.
> 
> In September 2015, our 2010 Jetta TDI would have been 5 years old. Edmunds estimates that, on average, after five years a car is worth 37% of its original price. Add 20% and we get 57%.
> 
> Original price was $28812. 57% of that is $16422. That's an absurd and unacceptable compensation for someone who maintains a car well, and plans to keep it for at least 10 or 15 years. And, of course, this calculation does not even include the money spent on interest if the car was financed.


Sorry to burst your bubble, but that is not how "market value +20 percent" works
37 percent of the original value is 10,660. To add 20 percent, you would add 2,132 dollars, not 20 percent of the original selling price. So market value + 20 percent would equal $12,792. Cheers


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

Remember that Toyota did the Tacoma rusty frame buybacks at 150% the KBB "excellent condition" price, regardless of condition. They sweetened the pot even more by offering addition incentives to folks who bought another Toyota. They took a huge negative and basically flipped a bunch of longtime Tacoma owners who would have kept their truck forever into new Toyota Truck buyers (though at steep discounts). Brand loyal and reputation were effectively saved.

Now, VW is probably dealing with more vehicles in total but still, there are precedents set as to how you can deal with a problem like this. Instead, VW is taking months and months to try and bargain their way out of trouble and leaving some of their most loyal owners flapping in the breeze.


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

Sporin said:


> Remember that Toyota did the Tacoma rusty frame buybacks at 150% the KBB "excellent condition" price, regardless of condition. They sweetened the pot even more by offering addition incentives to folks who bought another Toyota. They took a huge negative and basically flipped a bunch of longtime Tacoma owners who would have kept their truck forever into new Toyota Truck buyers (though at steep discounts). Brand loyal and reputation were effectively saved.
> 
> Now, VW is probably dealing with more vehicles in total but still, there are precedents set as to how you can deal with a problem like this. Instead, VW is taking months and months to try and bargain their way out of trouble and leaving some of their most loyal owners flapping in the breeze.


This deserved to be requoted for all the folks saying that market value plus 20% is over the top / greedy on the owners part. Tacoma owners and TDI owners are a very similar demographic for brand / product loyalty. Toyota didn't fuss around, came up with a solution that worked for most owners to make things right, and it will continue to pay out in spades for them. What VW ultimately decides is up to them and will largely effect whether I continue to be a VW owner, as I have for the last 20+ years.


----------



## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

The deadline tomorrow is for VW and the EPA to agree on a solution? If this does not happen, could the EPA be partly at fault? 

I still don't understand why they don't break up the urea injected vehicles, and those without it into two separate categories.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

"BREAKING: U.S., Volkswagen reach deal to address polluting vehicles; company shares up 5 percent"


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

$5K to each TDI owner.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-court-idUSKCN0XH0ZV


----------



## jerzrunr (Jan 6, 2009)

*hot off the rumor mill...from Reuters and Die Welt*



atomicalex said:


> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-court-idUSKCN0XH0ZV


Volkswagen has reached a deal with U.S. authorities to settle the case over its cheating of diesel emissions tests that would involve it paying each affected customer $5,000, Germany's Die Welt newspaper reported on Wednesday.

Citing unidentified sources close to the negotiations, Die Welt said the agreement would be presented on Thursday to Judge Charles Breyer in San Francisco, avoiding a trial.

Volkswagen (VW) declined to comment.

Earlier on Wednesday, the possibility of a settlement had boosted the carmaker's shares by 6.6 percent, the biggest gain in Germany's benchmark DAX index.

A U.S. federal judge last month gave VW and regulators until Thursday to agree on a fix for nearly 600,000 diesel cars on U.S. roads implicated by VW's emissions test-rigging scandal.

The company does "not believe any expedited hearing or bench trial is appropriate or required", according to the agenda for the hearing on Thursday at the San Francisco district court about VW's progress toward reaching a deal with the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA).

The plaintiffs - a committee representing thousands of consumers who say they were tricked into buying polluting diesel vehicles - proposed an expedited hearing or bench trial, or an expedited "all issues" trial including punitive damages.

Die Welt said the agreement did not include a detailed plan to fix the affected cars, nor were details fixed on fines and other compensation measures, with one source saying the deal would be fleshed out in the coming months.

However, the owners of affected cars should receive $5,000 each in compensation and VW will separately have to pay to fix their vehicles, the paper said.

German lawyer Christopher Rother told Die Welt that plaintiffs in Europe would seek to emulate the U.S. deal for their customers too.

Earlier on Wednesday, two sources familiar with the matter told Reuters that VW would substantially increase the amount of money set aside to cover its emissions test cheating scandal from the 6.7 billion euros ($7.6 billion) currently earmarked.

Europe's biggest carmaker will make provisions for a double-digit billion-euro amount in its 2015 results on April 28, the sources said, speaking on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the matter.

One said the German company might not pay a dividend to shareholders on the results and if it did, it would be less than 1 euro per share. Volkswagen (VW) paid out 4.80 euros per common share and 4.86 euros per preference share on 2014 results.

VW declined to comment.

The company is struggling to put a cost on the biggest business scandal in its history seven months after it admitted to cheating U.S. diesel emissions tests, as it is embroiled in legal proceedings around the world.

Arndt Ellinghorst, an analyst at market research firm Evercore ISI, expects VW's total costs from the "dieselgate" scandal to reach about 30 billion euros.

Final provisions will depend on the outcome of talks with U.S. regulators, the Justice Department and the Federal Trade Commission, one of the sources said.

Analysts have said a deal with U.S. authorities, also on financial penalties, would remove a major deterrent to investing in VW, whose shares have lost billions in value since the scandal broke in September.

"It would be a major positive trigger for the stock if VW quantified the total potential cost of the diesel affair," said Evercore ISI's Ellinghorst, who recommends buying VW shares.

Scandal-related expenses could cut VW's fourth-quarter operating profit 70 percent to 992 million euros, a Reuters poll of analysts found.

(Additional reporting by Jan Schwartz and Emma Thomasson; Editing by Georgina Prodhan and Mark Potter)


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Who is going to be the first to claim the scandal caused their resale value to tank more thank $5k? Or, what about damages to psyche and self importance?


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Hajduk said:


> $5K to each TDI owner.


Ooh. I like it. Much better than a forced buyback.


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

That seems pretty fair, actually. They'd be smart to attach a big incentive on a new VW to existing TDI customers as well and get as many of those cars off the road as they can. The more cars they can get off the road, the cheaper the fix costs will wind up being. Plus it, maybe, keeps people in the VW family for a while longer.

With the Consumers settled, they still have to deal with the fines and fixes for the actual infraction.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

hey now, i want more for the 3.0.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Silly_me said:


> Or, what about damages to psyche and self importance?


opcorn:

Dis gon be gud.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

So is this 5k hush money to not sue further and I can continue to drive my car as normal? If so this is the best outcome for me.

If its 5k plus we're going to hack your car apart mandatorily (I have a non-SCR vehicle), I'm not a fan.

EDIT: I'm sure the story is fresh but on the link posted above on Reuters, article posted 1 minute prior says Volkswagen is expected to offer a buyback to 500k cars - is this a choice type scenario?

I.E. - 
A) We'll give you 5k and just drive your car as it stands, if we come up with a fix someday and you want to do it you're welcome to
B) Take our buyback offer if you really hate us and get yourself $$$ or a new VW thats not diesel

If thats the case, I'll take the 5k and enjoy the car as is, which is what I wanted from the beginning.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

Ricky Bobby said:


> So is this 5k hush money to not sue further and I can continue to drive my car as normal? If so this is the best outcome for me.
> 
> If its 5k plus we're going to hack your car apart mandatorily (I have a non-SCR vehicle), I'm not a fan.


probably yes and yes. article states fix hasn't been determined yet.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

jerzrunr said:


> Volkswagen has reached a deal with U.S. authorities to settle the case over its cheating of diesel emissions tests that would involve it paying each affected customer $5,000, Germany's Die Welt newspaper reported on Wednesday.
> 
> Citing unidentified sources close to the negotiations, Die Welt said the agreement would be presented on Thursday to Judge Charles Breyer in San Francisco, avoiding a trial.
> 
> ...


bwahahahahaahahahahaah!! genus!!!!

honestly, there's going to be a LOT of pissed of attorney's who were jockeying for a piece of the litigation.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

You'reDrunk said:


> bwahahahahaahahahahaah!! gen*i*us!!!!
> 
> honestly, there's going to be a LOT of pissed of attorney's who were jockeying for a piece of the litigation.


No new summer homes for them. :laugh:


----------



## EcoTX (Aug 6, 2011)

A lot of owners are going to use that 5k to completely delete the emissions crap, get tunes, and pollute more than ever. Thanks VW and EPA


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

EcoTX said:


> A lot of owners are going to use that 5k to completely delete the emissions crap, get tunes, and pollute more than ever. Thanks VW and EPA


I'm putting that $5k in the stock market. **** modding this thing.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

So since this hasn't been officially announced yet if I go buy a TDI today am I still eligible for the 5 large? :laugh:



DUBPL8 said:


> I'm putting that $5k in the stock market. **** modding this thing.


Might I suggest VW? looks like their stock is going back up


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

I am ok with this.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

JitteryJoe said:


> So since this hasn't been officially announced yet if I go buy a TDI today am I still eligible for the 5 large? :laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> Might I suggest VW? looks like their stock is going back up


If only I had bought some back in September at 94 a share lol


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

IF this proves to be true, I'm happy with it. In my case, the value drop is less than the payout would be (If this is taxable, that may be another story) I'd take the money, sell the car and move on.


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> IF this proves to be true, I'm happy with it. In my case, the value drop is less than the payout would be (If this is taxable, that may be another story) I'd take the money, sell the car and move on.


if it holds true, glad to hear the solution meets your satisfaction. i've felt bad for you since you started posting about your situation, really hope this works out for you. :thumbup:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> IF this proves to be true, I'm happy with it. In my case, the value drop is less than the payout would be (*If this is taxable, that may be another story*) I'd take the money, sell the car and move on.


I don't believe it would be taxable, as it's to compensate for a loss.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

Wonder if this will be paid out via a gift card again.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)




----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

I wonder if this applies to lease holders, not that I could imagine why anyone would want to lease a diesel..


----------



## csr67 (Oct 24, 2003)

caj1 said:


> I wonder if this applies to lease holders, not that I could imagine why anyone would want to lease a diesel..


Well that is an interesting point. I leased my 2016 Tdi Touareg for a number of very valid reasons. I wonder how they'll make me whole with this mess? I struggle to think that someone who bought a $60k Touareg would be happy with the same $5k paid to the owner of a Jetta costing about two thirds less.....


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

csr67 said:


> Well that is an interesting point. I leased my 2016 Tdi Touareg for a number of very valid reasons. I wonder how they'll make me whole with this mess? I struggle to think that someone who bought a $60k Touareg would be happy with the same $5k paid to the owner of a Jetta costing about two thirds less.....


Make you whole? As a lessee, how have or will you lose money in this scenario?


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

There are reports now that VW will offer to buy back some vehicles as well.


----------



## csr67 (Oct 24, 2003)

caj1 said:


> Make you whole? As a lessee, how have or will you lose money in this scenario?


Several ways... I'm in CA, and if they impose a mandatory fix that degrades MPG and power, I lose. If I get t-boned in my Treg today, what value will insurance pay out on the loss? Yes, I'm somewhat insulated on the lease vs. a purchase, but I still could get screwed over financially with the serious value loss of these Tdi's.


----------



## VeeDubDriver (Oct 1, 2001)

Hajduk said:


> There are reports now that VW will offer to buy back some vehicles as well.


From Automotive News:

WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen AG and U.S. officials have reached the framework of a deal ahead of a Thursday court deadline, to remedy problems caused by hundreds of thousands of vehicles that are emitting up to 40 times legally allowable pollution, two sources briefed on the matter told Reuters today. 

The German automaker is expected to tell a federal judge in San Francisco Thursday that it has agreed to offer to buy back up to 500,000 2.0-liter diesel U.S. vehicles that used sophisticated software to evade U.S. emission rules.

Volkswagen may also offer to repair polluting diesel vehicles if U.S. regulators approve the fix as workable at a future date, the sources said. But it is not certain if those vehicles will be deemed fixable by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

Earlier today, Germany's _Die Welt_ newspaper reported that the deal to settle the case would involve VW paying each affected customer $5,000.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

EcoTX said:


> A lot of owners are going to use that 5k to completely delete the emissions crap, get tunes, and pollute more than ever. Thanks VW and EPA


Article also says VW still has to fix the vehicles. No tune for you.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

csr67 said:


> Several ways... I'm in CA, and if they impose a mandatory fix that degrades MPG and power, I lose. If I get t-boned in my Treg today, what value will insurance pay out on the loss? Yes, I'm somewhat insulated on the lease vs. a purchase, *but I still could get screwed over financially with the serious value loss of these Tdi's*.


it's a closed end lease....there is NO issue regarding the value of the vehicle....now if you leased it WITHOUT GAP insurance, well.....then I think you lost a bet.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

You'reDrunk said:


> it's a closed end lease....there is NO issue regarding the value of the vehicle....now if you leased it WITHOUT GAP insurance, well.....then I think you lost a bet.


I don't know of any manufacturers who don't include gap insurance when their bank leases the vehicle..


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

caj1 said:


> I don't know of any manufacturers who don't include gap insurance when *their* bank leases the vehicle..


that's the question


----------



## csr67 (Oct 24, 2003)

caj1 said:


> I don't know of any manufacturers who don't include gap insurance when their bank leases the vehicle..


True, VW and Audi build the GAP into all their leases automatically, it's not an option. So true, my point about a total loss is mute.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Silly_me said:


> Who is going to be the first to claim the scandal caused their resale value to tank more thank $5k?





csr67 said:


> Well that is an interesting point. I leased my 2016 Tdi Touareg for a number of very valid reasons. I wonder how they'll make me whole with this mess? I struggle to think that someone who bought a $60k Touareg would be happy with the same $5k paid to the owner of a Jetta costing about two thirds less.....


Woot! Took only 20 posts! And a lessee to boot! Johnny, tell them what they've won!


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

You'reDrunk said:


> I don't believe it would be taxable, as it's to compensate for a loss.


You could also call it a rebate. Rebates are not taxable as income, as long as you don't try to deduct the full cost of the loss, then claim the rebate wasn't income. That would be double dipping, but since only businesses deduct vehicle costs, not individuals, that will only impact businesses and most businesses have a CPA or accounting department to do their taxes anyway.


----------



## LieutenantShinySides (May 4, 2007)

> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen AG and U.S. officials have reached a framework deal under which the automaker would offer to buy back almost 500,000 diesel cars that used sophisticated software to evade U.S. emission rules, two people briefed on the matter said today.
> 
> The German automaker is expected to tell a federal judge in San Francisco Thursday that it has agreed to offer to buy back up to 500,000 2.0-liter diesel vehicles sold in the U.S., the people said.
> 
> ...


More reports coming out. Guess we'll have to wait for the concrete details until tomorrow.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

caj1 said:


> I don't know of any manufacturers who don't include gap insurance when their bank leases the vehicle..


Toyota doesn't. I had to get GAP through my auto insurance company because Toyota doesn't, or at least in 2010 didn't.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> Toyota doesn't. I had to get GAP through my auto insurance company because Toyota doesn't, or at least in 2010 didn't.


Pretty cheap of Toyota... I guess they're willing to accept the risk. I know getting it through your insurance agency is nominal..


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

from that last report:
"VW will pay cash compensation to owners who either sell their vehicles back or get them fixed, a source briefed on the matter said. Owners selling back their vehicles will get an additional cash payment on top of receiving the estimated value of the vehicles from before the emissions scandal became public in September 2015.

The compensation fund is expected to represent more than $1 billion on top of the cost of buying back the vehicles, a person briefed on the matter said."

that would be pretty phenomenal. Let us wait and see. Honestly surprised they seem to be sticking to this new deadline...was expectin them to push it further out again..


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

PolishSasquatch said:


> from that last report:
> "VW will pay cash compensation to owners who either sell their vehicles back or get them fixed, a source briefed on the matter said. Owners selling back their vehicles will get an additional cash payment on top of receiving the estimated value of the vehicles from before the emissions scandal became public in September 2015.
> 
> The compensation fund is expected to represent more than $1 billion on top of the cost of buying back the vehicles, a person briefed on the matter said."
> ...


bad pr + class action lawyers circling... probably cost less for vw in the end.


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2013)

If I really get $5k back, this will awesome. 

Buy Mk7 TDI SE ($28k) for $26k, get it exchanged for an SEL ($31k) under lemon law, get $1k back in goodwill, get $5k back now.


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

Yep, we will be getting more details tomorrow or Friday. Stay tuned folks.....


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

<<< Buys Used 2012 Golf TDI from local dealer for just under $13K right after the Diesel Scandal is announced.

VW sends $1000 Goodwill package. 

VW to send another $5000 as settlement. 

VW pays me a total of $6000 for a $13K car. Vehicle was purchased with cash so I theoretically paid only $7000 for a 2012 Golf TDI. Nice.


----------



## chucchinchilla (Dec 25, 2004)

Uberhare said:


> <<< Buys Used 2012 Golf TDI from local dealer for just under $13K right after the Diesel Scandal is announced.
> 
> VW sends $1000 Goodwill package.
> 
> ...


I've been wondering about this scenario. :laugh::beer:


----------



## Astronaut3000 (Sep 9, 2002)

Uberhare said:


> <<< Buys Used 2012 Golf TDI from local dealer for just under $13K right after the Diesel Scandal is announced.
> 
> VW sends $1000 Goodwill package.
> 
> ...


Shoot.. got me beat! Same, but it was a '10 - 3 weeks before the scandal for $11.5
If this all comes to pass, I'm about to be a happy camper.

Unrelated - I bet Californians like myself will be looking at a forced buyout.


----------



## Harv (Oct 31, 2004)

So what if you have 4 TDI's? You just get paid once?


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

Uberhare said:


> <<< Buys Used 2012 Golf TDI from local dealer for just under $13K right after the Diesel Scandal is announced.
> 
> VW sends $1000 Goodwill package.
> 
> ...


<<< Buys new 2010 Jetta TDI Cup for ~$28K

VW sends $1000 Goodwill package. 

VW to send another $5000 as settlement.

<<< Enjoys Jetta TDI Cup for 5+ years, droppin' NOx like it's HAWT, whilst clubbing baby seals.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

OK, so what's posted above makes sense in terms of how to get people to sign up.

TDI Fanatic: "NO way will I get my car fixed, because it means I will get lower MPG and worse power. I'll never let you perform the recall!"

VW: "Sorry, no $5000 for you. It's only to people who get their car fixed."

TDI Fanatic: "OK, maybe slightly lower MPG & power aren't so bad. Gimme $5000."

What better way to assure voluntary compliance than offering $5000 that you only receive if you comply with the recall? Sadly, many (most?) TDI Fanatics will take the $5000 and then promptly rip the entire emissions system out of the car and have it chipped with a rolling coal tune the day after they have the recall performed. The only effective long term solution for emissions is to eliminate the 250 million moving points of pollution known as combustion engine cars, and replace them with EVs, so EPA only has to regulate the thousands of stationary power plants instead of hundreds of millions of moving vehicles.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

Astronaut3000 said:


> Shoot.. got me beat! Same, but it was a '10 - 3 weeks before the scandal for $11.5
> If this all comes to pass, I'm about to be a happy camper.
> 
> Unrelated - I bet Californians like myself will be looking at a forced buyout.


Is there precedence for the government forcing you to sell back your car when you're not at fault for making it non-compliant?


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

chucchinchilla said:


> I've been wondering about this scenario. :laugh::beer:


It took a week of convincing the wife to buy the car but after the dust settles I think she'll be happy. 


Ironically, I plan to buy a DPF delete kit and maybe a bigger turbo system and intercooler using the money VW is giving me.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

So $5k plus fix? $5k plus buyback? Which is it?

*Exclusive: VW to offer to buy back nearly 500,000 U.S. diesel cars - sources*



> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Volkswagen AG and U.S. officials have reached a framework deal under which the automaker would offer to buy back almost 500,000 diesel cars that used sophisticated software to evade U.S. emission rules, two people briefed on the matter said on Wednesday.
> 
> The German automaker is expected to tell a federal judge in San Francisco Thursday that it has agreed to offer to buy back up to 500,000 2.0-liter diesel vehicles sold in the United States, the people said.
> 
> ...


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Ok, I'm getting a little confused by the two recent reports. Where does the $5,000 come into play?

From what I'm gathering,

1) Agree to recall/fix, keep car, get $5,000
2) Buyback at prescandal value + $5,000 cash

Is that correct?


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

Mazda 3s said:


> Ok, I'm getting a little confused by the two recent reports. Where does the $5,000 come into play?
> 
> From what I'm gathering,
> 
> ...


That's how I read it.. option 2, please!

Can they offer a third option of $10K in VW shares in lieu of the $5K?


----------



## EJPolaski (Sep 24, 2008)

Uberhare said:


> It took a week of convincing the wife to buy the car but after the dust settles I think she'll be happy.
> 
> 
> Ironically, I plan to buy a DPF delete kit and maybe a bigger turbo system and intercooler using the money VW is giving me.


Glad your gamble is working out for you! Hopefully all this chatter becomes real tomorrow.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

boo. no love. 



> The buyback offer does not apply to the bigger 3.0-liter diesel vehicles also found to have exceeded U.S. pollution limits,


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

rich! said:


> boo. no love.


:thumbup: I'm good with that, I'll take the cash!


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

caj1 said:


> I wonder if this applies to lease holders, not that I could imagine why anyone would want to lease a diesel..


It's for "OWNERS" not Lease's.

Lease's I doubt get anything. Wouldn't make sense if they did, it's not their car.


----------



## nyexx (Dec 12, 2014)

You know what's funny? Honda is going to bring the new 5th generation CR-V to the market before Volkswagen brings the next gen Tiguan to market :laugh:

Honda went through two generations of CR-V before VW could bring a competitive product to the market :facepalm:


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

So I bought my car 3 weeks before this whole thing broke and I get two years to decide if I want to sell it back _and_ I get $5000?

So wait, I can effectively drive my car for almost three years and sell it back for the value at essentially the time of purchase? Three years of a free car? The warranty runs out and I say "ok, I want to sell it back now".

If I'm interpreting this correctly (pretty sure I am) then I am one lucky SOB.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

nyexx said:


> You know what's funny? Honda is going to bring the new 5th generation CR-V to the market before Volkswagen brings the next gen Tiguan to market :laugh:
> 
> Honda went through two generations of CR-V before VW could bring a competitive product to the market :facepalm:


How do you even know if it will be competitive by the time it gets here? :laugh:


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

A question for the financial lounge....

If VW undertakes a mass buyback, that should effectively cause the stock to crater. So the question is...buying opportunity? And how long for it to recover?


----------



## csr67 (Oct 24, 2003)

Saggio44 said:


> It's for "OWNERS" not Lease's.
> 
> Lease's I doubt get anything. Wouldn't make sense if they did, it's not their car.


Not all that true... I lease my Touareg and I got the $1k goodwill package.


----------



## Astronaut3000 (Sep 9, 2002)

Vicelord said:


> So wait, I can effectively drive my car for almost three years and sell it back for the value at essentially the time of purchase? Three years of a free car? The warranty runs out and I say "ok, I want to sell it back now".


Also waiting for the definitive answer on this one.
2 more years of driving this thing, which I'm pretty sure the car will do with zero maintenance, oil changes, car washes, etc. :laugh:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Vicelord said:


> So I bought my car 3 weeks before this whole thing broke and I get two years to decide if I want to sell it back _and_ I get $5000?
> 
> So wait, I can effectively drive my car for almost three years and sell it back for the value at essentially the time of purchase? Three years of a free car? The warranty runs out and I say "ok, I want to sell it back now".
> 
> If I'm interpreting this correctly (pretty sure I am) then I am one lucky SOB.


I would wait for the official announcement. I assume you have a 2015? Maybe they will fix those and not offer a buyback. Hopefully you will at least get the cash. 

As for the value of your 2015 at the time the news broke, I suspect it could be considerably less than you paid unless you got a big discount. Virtually every new car is worth less than what people actually pay once they drive it off the lot.


----------



## nyexx (Dec 12, 2014)

Mazda 3s said:


> How do you even know if it will be competitive by the time it gets here? :laugh:


Honestly it probably won't be :laugh:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

DJMRDARK said:


> A question for the financial lounge....
> 
> If VW undertakes a mass buyback, that should effectively cause the stock to crater. So the question is...buying opportunity? And how long for it to recover?



Doesn't seem so. VW's stock jumped up today because there is now less uncertainty.


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

spockcat said:


> Doesn't seem so. VW's stock jumped up today because there is now less uncertainty.


You don't think it'll go down when they start writing checks which will likely negative impact their reporting?


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

spockcat said:


> I would wait for the official announcement. I assume you have a 2015? Maybe they will fix those and not offer a buyback. Hopefully you will at least get the cash.
> 
> As for the value of your 2015 at the time the news broke, I suspect it could be considerably less than you paid unless you got a big discount. Virtually every new car is worth less than what people actually pay once they drive it off the lot.


The way I read it I will have the choice but obviously the official announcement will say for sure.

Yes I have a 2015. I may luck out.

I bought a brand new 2013 WRX Hatchback for $26,500 then I traded that straight across for a 2015 Golf SportWagen TDI. I have $26,500 in cash in that car before operating cost, so if I also don't see any depreciation I will basically have driven a car for FIVE years without losing any money to depreciation.

How's _that_ for luck.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

Saggio44 said:


> It's for "OWNERS" not Lease's.
> 
> Lease's I doubt get anything. Wouldn't make sense if they did, it's not their car.


Nor is it yours, assuming you didn't pay cash outright for your 2015 TDI


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

DJMRDARK said:


> You don't think it'll go down when they start writing checks which will likely negative impact their reporting?


VW stock (VLKAY) was about 38 just before the news, down from about 52 in early 2015. It dropped to about 23 after the news. That was a good time to buy. It has bounced around to about 31 over the last few months. Today it is 31. This is only about 7 points from its prescandal price. Seems to me it was on its way down already.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

DJMRDARK said:


> You don't think it'll go down when they start writing checks which will likely negative impact their reporting?


when in balance, markets tend to be forward looking and priced in


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

caj1 said:


> Nor is it yours, assuming you didn't pay cash outright for your 2015 TDI


Paid cash, paid in full from day one.

I guess if you look at it that way though for those that got loans to buy, then Lease's and "Owners" would be about the same.

(Insert foot in mouth) lol


----------



## tsimitpo (Jul 22, 2014)

*Reuters update*

I don't recall seeing this update on the thread.

Reuters update:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-usa-idUSKCN0XH2CX



> Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) and U.S. officials have reached a framework deal under which the automaker would offer to buy back almost 500,000 diesel cars that used sophisticated software to evade U.S. emission rules, two people briefed on the matter said on Wednesday.
> 
> The German automaker is expected to tell a federal judge in San Francisco Thursday that it has agreed to offer to buy back up to 500,000 2.0-liter diesel vehicles sold in the United States that exceeded legally allowable emission levels, the people said.
> 
> ...


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

OK..how is FMV going to be agreed upon? Is condition, mileage, service going to be taken into consideration? What about regions and market place? What source for value. NADA, KBB, Blackbook..wholesale, private party or retail? I think a simple percentage from the original MSRP, based upon model year will be the easiest and an clearest, irregardless of the variables I just mentioned, this percentage can be gotten from most leasing guides. This plus the $5K, I know I will be happy also for the simple fact, I don't think they can fix the 09-10's.


----------



## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

I'm a bit confused.....Is the plan to buy back the cars PLUS give everyone $5K for their trouble? I would now guess that with the NA alignment, the US cars they buy back will maybe be re-sold in Mexico?


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

Saggio44 said:


> It's for "OWNERS" not Lease's.
> 
> Lease's I doubt get anything. Wouldn't make sense if they did, it's not their car.


Why are there apostrophes in owners and leasees?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

fiftysomething said:


> I'm a bit confused.....Is the plan to buy back the cars PLUS give everyone $5K for their trouble? I would now guess that with the NA alignment, the US cars they buy back will maybe be re-sold in Mexico?


We'll see what they announce tomorrow but here's how I interpret the information: VW, EPA, and CARB know full well that most owners are lazy and stubborn and don't want to bring their cars in to get either fixed or bought back. This would mean potentially all 500,000 vehicles not ever getting fixed. How do you create an incentive to get the cars either fixed or turned in? Pay people money. Use the selfish greed inherent to humans to make things better for all humanity. If the goal is to get every car either fixed or crushed, paying people $5000 either way gives the incentive to the owners to do something other than be stubborn and refuse to play along. That's the goal here: clean air. VW is (likely) going to have to pay people $5000 per vehicle to get them to agree to something that will ultimately help make for cleaner air.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

Tomorrow can't come fast enough. I hope it's all over the news loud and clear also. I'm totally up to take $5k and let them buy the car back, so I can get into a CTS-V finally. Being stuck with a car that you want to get rid of isn't really fun. I love the car and everything and this emission crap really doesn't bother me at all. I just want to drive something more fun. I already have a mk3 I tinker with and love anyway. This whole deal just puts money in my pocket and I'm not complaining at all. Some people just need to change their tampon and deal with it.

:beer: for a buy-back and $5k!


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> We'll see what they announce tomorrow but here's how I interpret the information: VW, EPA, and CARB know full well that most owners are lazy and stubborn and don't want to bring their cars in to get either fixed or bought back. This would mean potentially all 500,000 vehicles not ever getting fixed. How do you create an incentive to get the cars either fixed or turned in? Pay people money. Use the selfish greed inherent to humans to make things better for all humanity. If the goal is to get every car either fixed or crushed, paying people $5000 either way gives the incentive to the owners to do something other than be stubborn and refuse to play along. That's the goal here: clean air. VW is (likely) going to have to pay people $5000 per vehicle to get them to agree to something that will ultimately help make for cleaner air.


no chance they're crushed, they'll just get sold somewhere else. And then there will be the pollution from building all those new cars.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> That's the goal here: money.


In all honesty, I fixed that for you.



wannabeeuroTR said:


> I hope it's all over the news loud and clear also.


Nobody cares. TDI owners aren't trapped in a mine, they aren't refugees fleeing Piëchyia, they aren't running for class-action president, hashtagdieseldeaths hasn't caught on, and they aren't on a reality show of any watchable character; the only people that care about this are TDI owners, anti-big business nuts, unwashed green peace fanatics, and the car lounge. 

Maybe you guys can get Taylor Swift to write a song about you? :laugh:


----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> the only people that care about this are TDI owners, anti-big business nuts, unwashed green peace fanatics, and the car lounge.


This needs to be displayed in neon.

This issue is so far out of the public eye it really doesn’t matter.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

grawk said:


> no chance they're crushed, they'll just get sold somewhere else. And then there will be the pollution from building all those new cars.


Actually even more likely is that if there's fixes for all model years, the buyback cars will get fixed and resold at the same VW dealer the buyback was performed at. The $5000 + buyback is just an easy way to make sure the car comes in and is made compliant, while the owner is made happy and hopefully buys another VW.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

eweu said:


> This needs to be displayed in neon.
> 
> This issue is so far out of the public eye it really doesn’t matter.


You're so wrong it's not even funny. This is being reported on almost every news site on the internet right now, and the settlement isn't even official. I guarantee if a settlement is announced on the 21st as expected, it will absolutely be front page for every news site and probably even show up in the little news feed on Facebook. It has MASSIVE visibility right now. VW has become a symbol of corporate greed during an election year when voter discontentment has got to be at some kind of record high.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> VW has become a symbol of corporate greed during an election year when voter discontentment has got to be at some kind of record high.


 Not even Sanders has bothered with attacking Volkswagen :laugh:


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

AZGolf said:


> *VW has become a symbol of corporate greed* during an election year when voter discontentment has got to be at some kind of record high.


Where's that coming from? Even *Mitsubishi's mileage swindling* (after Kia and Hyunday) is currently getting more traction.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

It's making the news, but that doesn't mean anyone cares. It'll be out of the news as fast as it was in it. I think they found a solution that makes everyone that matters happy.


----------



## lorge1989 (Sep 3, 2008)

AZGolf said:


> You're so wrong it's not even funny. This is being reported on almost every news site on the internet right now, and the settlement isn't even official. I guarantee if a settlement is announced on the 21st as expected, it will absolutely be front page for every news site and probably even show up in the little news feed on Facebook. It has MASSIVE visibility right now. VW has become a symbol of corporate greed during an election year when voter discontentment has got to be at some kind of record high.


Nope nope nope. Non car people I have mentioned it to have no clue what I'm talking about, and quite frankly they could care less.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

lorge1989 said:


> and quite frankly they could care less.


So, they do care?


Today is the day!


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

Keeping my eye on this. Itching for a 3er diesel touring! A rare unicorn in these parts....


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I really want to either be able to keep my car, or get into a TDI GSW. Either way, I want a TDI and a wagon. Somehow. Someway. :laugh:


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

We had a very intense discussion on this last night at dinner - who the $5K payments would benefit the most.

Conclusion was that the people planning to keep the cars benefit most. 

Intrinsic (scrap) value of the cars remains constant.

Functional value of the cars remains constant in non-CARB states, plummets in CARB states (assuming no fix/no registration)

Sales value falls due to $$$ on hood, similar to the effect of slapping discounts on new cars. 

So non-CARB keepers basically get free money, non-CARB sellers break even or make a few $$$, CARB sellers can unload to non-CARB states and likely break even or make a few $$$, CARB keepers are still in limbo.

We are non-CARB keepers, so woohoo! Christmas in May! LOL


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

atomicalex said:


> We had a very intense discussion on this last night at dinner - who the $5K payments would benefit the most.


Did it result in fisticuffs?


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

BRealistic said:


> Did it result in fisticuffs?


No, but I did swat my 15YO a few times for being silly.

We also agreed that the Corolla will turn into a stripper Golf if they throw some owner loyalty back on the table. My 17YO visibly blanched at that. :laugh:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

This actually isn't too bad of a deal, as I was stated it would be generous. 

How will they handle leases; my thought is that leases will be asked to bring the cars back early without penalty and get a deal on the next vehicle from VW. Otherwise they can walk away from the car without question or penalty.


----------



## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

lorge1989 said:


> Nope nope nope. Non car people I have mentioned it to have no clue what I'm talking about, and quite frankly they could care less.


Some air-cooled people don't even know what a Jetta is..........:laugh:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Oh and how many multi brand dealerships will be happy to snag that $5,000 and get you into another brand of vehicle when you go in for the buy back or fix? 

Lets be real about this $5,000 thing. That $5,000 is going back to VW when you get into another car. You aren't walking out of the dealer with a $5,000 check after you turn in your car.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

> Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) and U.S. officials have reached a framework deal under which the automaker would offer to buy back almost 500,000 diesel cars that used sophisticated software to evade U.S. emission rules, two people briefed on the matter said on Wednesday.
> 
> The German automaker is expected to tell a federal judge in San Francisco Thursday that it has agreed to offer to buy back up to 500,000 2.0-liter diesel vehicles sold in the United States that exceeded legally allowable emission levels, the people said.


I was talking to a VW dealer last night and we aren't sure many/most of the 500k diesel owners would even have the ability to sell their cars back to VW without buying another VW. Basically most people have to trade in their current vehicle to whoever they are buying their newer vehicle from because they don't have the money to buy the second vehicle without the trade. Everything works well if buying anouther VW but after that it seems like it is a problem.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

regarding tradins at VW, how does it work if I want an Audi but drive a VW? Audi is owned by VW, but would something like that work?-drive in the jetta and leave in a pre owned audi?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW said to pay at least $10 billion in U.S. diesel-cheating deal*



> (Bloomberg) -- Volkswagen Group has agreed to set aside at least $10 billion to resolve civil claims by the U.S. government and lawsuits by American car owners over diesel vehicles rigged to cheat pollution controls, a person with direct knowledge of the matter said.
> 
> The parties reached the accord ahead of today's deadline set by a federal judge for the carmaker to say how it would fix the vehicles.
> 
> ...


*$9.4 billion/500,000 cars is $18,800/car*


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

More than likely will work fine since the A-3 is also an affected vehicle.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW begins recall of rigged Audi, Seat diesel cars*



> FRANKFURT -- Volkswagen Group has begun recalling Audi and Seat models in Germany to fix rigged diesel engines and may now accelerate plans to bring VW Golfs into workshops.
> 
> VW Group has begun a recall of 90,000 Audi A4, A5, Q5 and Seat Exeo models in Germany, a company spokesman told Automotive News Europe.
> 
> ...


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

spockcat said:


> *$9.4 billion/500,000 cars is $18,800/car*


http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/04/20/volkswagen-group-emissions-scandal-hearing/83284748/



> Kelley Blue Book analysts recently projected that the cost of buying back all of the U.S. vehicles involved in the scandal, based on current value, would be $7.3 billion.



Add in a premium for the lost value or a payment to the customer and the number would be close.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

spockcat said:


> *$9.4 billion/500,000 cars is $18,800/car*


It's also half of what BP paid out for arguably the worst environmental disaster in modern history and twenty-eight times more than the, until now, highest fine for violation of the clean air act.

If this turns out to be true, and doesn't end up being $5k per customer, plus applicable fine, plus forced credit purchase, it will be a colossal waste of money and resources. Done only for primate like chest beating, not for protection of the environment.


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

Silly_me said:


> It's also half of what BP paid out for arguably the worst environmental disaster in modern history and twenty-eight times more than the, until now, highest fine for violation of the clean air act.
> 
> If this turns out to be true, and doesn't end up being $5k per customer, plus applicable fine, plus forced credit purchase, it will be a colossal waste of money and resources. Done only for primate like chest beating, not for protection of the environment.


I can't believe that after 295 pages and 7 months this still needs explaining to you. The penalties are so stiff because of the specific intention with which VW acted. BP and its contractors did a lot of stupid things, but they did not specifically intend to create an environmental disaster. Generally, our laws are written to tie severity of punishment to intent. When a corporation acts in the way that VW did, the punishment should be severe otherwise the law would effectively incentivize this kind of behavior.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

zhenya00 said:


> When a corporation acts in the way that VW did, the punishment should be severe otherwise the law would effectively incentivize this kind of behavior.


If only there was an existing precedence of a company intentionally lying about the pollution its cars produced...... some baseline to which we could compare the sort of fines such actions should warrant........


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

zhenya00 said:


> I can't believe that after 295 pages and 7 months this still needs explaining to you. The penalties are so stiff because of the specific intention with which VW acted. BP and its contractors did a lot of stupid things, but they did not specifically intend to create an environmental disaster. Generally, our laws are written to tie severity of punishment to intent. When a corporation acts in the way that VW did, the punishment should be severe otherwise the law would effectively incentivize this kind of behavior.


As someone who has constantly complained about how hard VW was being railed on, $9.4 billion isn't bad. Now, if only the rest of our legal system could follow this:


> the punishment should be severe otherwise the law would effectively incentivize this kind of behavior


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> It's also half of what BP paid out for arguably the worst environmental disaster in modern history and twenty-eight times more than the, until now, highest fine for violation of the clean air act.
> 
> If this turns out to be true, and doesn't end up being $5k per customer, plus applicable fine, plus forced credit purchase, it will be a colossal waste of money and resources. Done only for primate like chest beating, not for protection of the environment.


As said before, you build a bridge that falls down and kills a hundred (because you are incompetent) and the penalty is probably not as great as if you walk into your house pull out a gun and kill your wife (which happened exactly as you planned). One killed a hundred and the other killed one but the reasons they happened are far different.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

dmorrow said:


> As said before, you build a bridge that falls down and kills a hundred (because you are incompetent) and the penalty is probably not as great as if you walk into your house pull out a gun and kill your wife (which happened exactly as you planned). One killed a hundred and the other killed one but the reasons they happened are far different.


If only there was an existing precedence of a company intentionally lying about the pollution its cars produced...... some baseline to which we could compare the sort of fines such actions should warrant.......


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

dmorrow said:


> As said before, you build a bridge that falls down and kills a hundred (because you are incompetent) and the penalty is probably not as great as if you walk into your house pull out a gun and kill your wife (which happened exactly as you planned). One killed a hundred and the other killed one but the reasons they happened are far different.


But with justice needing to be served not only will you get the penalty but that manufacturer of the gun will now also be able to be sued for your criminal actions. The manufacturer of the concrete on the bridge won't get sued if their product worked as intended and it was only you who were incompetent and designed a defective bridge.

Gotta love our legal system.


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

Ricky Bobby said:


> But with justice needing to be served not only will you get the penalty but that manufacturer of the gun will now also be able to be sued for your criminal actions. The manufacturer of the concrete on the bridge won't get sued if their product worked as intended and it was only you who were incompetent and designed a defective bridge.
> 
> Gotta love our legal system.


In the case of BP Macondo Halliburton was the cementer and they did indeed get sued even though they followed BP's design.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Ricky Bobby said:


> But with justice needing to be served not only will you get the penalty but that manufacturer of the gun will now also be able to be sued for your criminal actions. The manufacturer of the concrete on the bridge won't get sued if their product worked as intended and it was only you who were incompetent and designed a defective bridge.
> 
> Gotta love our legal system.


I don't think this has anything to do with the current topic.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Silly_me said:


> If only there was an existing precedence of a company intentionally lying about the pollution its cars produced...... some baseline to which we could compare the sort of fines such actions should warrant.......


You mean Freightliner, right? One of those truck companies did the same thing. It's back on page 30 or so, I think.

From Jalopnik - _As the EPA recounts, the suit named Caterpillar, Inc., Cummins Engine Company, Detroit Diesel Corporation, Mack Trucks, Inc., Navistar International Transportation Corporation, Renault Vehicules Industriels, s.a., and the Volvo Truck Corporation._

http://jalopnik.com/how-the-epa-won-1-billion-from-diesel-cheaters-long-be-1732109485


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Ricky Bobby said:


> But with justice needing to be served not only will you get the penalty but that manufacturer of the gun will now also be able to be sued for your criminal actions. The manufacturer of the concrete on the bridge won't get sued if their product worked as intended and it was only you who were incompetent and designed a defective bridge.
> 
> Gotta love our legal system.





dmorrow said:


> I don't think this has anything to do with the current topic.


Yeah, plus that case will never hold up on appeal. There is a Federal Law specifically prohibiting that suit from occurring that the Judge completely ignored. Activist Judge is Activist.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

spockcat said:


> *VW said to pay at least $10 billion in U.S. diesel-cheating deal*
> 
> *$9.4 billion/500,000 cars is $18,800/car*


yes and no.

its fine i suppose if you want to split out the money on a per car basis... but the reality is that some cars are worth more than others, so the actual amount per car WILL vary.


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

atomicalex said:


> You mean Freightliner, right? One of those truck companies did the same thing. It's back on page 30 or so, I think.
> 
> From Jalopnik - _As the EPA recounts, the suit named Caterpillar, Inc., Cummins Engine Company, Detroit Diesel Corporation, Mack Trucks, Inc., Navistar International Transportation Corporation, Renault Vehicules Industriels, s.a., and the Volvo Truck Corporation._
> 
> http://jalopnik.com/how-the-epa-won-1-billion-from-diesel-cheaters-long-be-1732109485


If anything, the fact that precedent exists only strengthens today's case for harsher penalties still. Those companies might have had some room to argue that they were meeting the letter of the law, and due to no previous precedent, their intent could be interpreted as minimal. Anyhow, the EPA firmly rejected that claim, and they paid up. VW had to be aware of that precedent, yet still chose to willfully deceive in a similar manner. The penalties _need_ to be strong enough to make sure no manufacturer ever thinks of doing something similar again. 

There is also a matter of scale at play here. The trucks were found to be producing between two and three times the allowed NOx levels compared to VW at up to 40x.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

*Hagens Berman Sobol Shapiro LLP*

VW CASE UPDATE
Good morning Volkswagen Dieselgate class members:
We know rumors of a settlement are out there. This morning, Hagens Berman will post and email a court-approved statement about the status of the lawsuit versus VW.
Thank you for joining us in the fight against Volkswagen.
Steve W. Berman, Managing Partner
Tom Loeser, Partner
[email protected]
VW Owner Resource Hub


Hagens Berman Sobol Shapiro LLP
1918 8th Avenue
Seattle, WA 98011
(206) 623-7292

Update your Email Preferences or Unsubscribe


----------



## rick8018 (Jan 3, 2001)

PolishSasquatch said:


> regarding tradins at VW, how does it work if I want an Audi but drive a VW? Audi is owned by VW, but would something like that work?-drive in the jetta and leave in a pre owned audi?


This is exactly what I'm hoping to do. Turn my Golf TDI into a CPO A3.


----------



## Ryukein (Dec 10, 2006)

This is going to be expensive as ****. I think TDI owners are getting a pretty good deal.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

MRW I heard of the proposed agreement:










Then, they say no details until June:










At least we're headed in the right direction, it seems.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

rick8018 said:


> This is exactly what I'm hoping to do. Turn my Golf TDI into a CPO A3.


im looking for a white 08-09 S8, CF, ext leather..I realise i have to put cash on top, but hoping for that nice trade in deal..


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

http://money.cnn.com/2016/04/21/news/companies/volkswagen-owner-compensation/

6 mins ago.
doesnt say much but i believe this is a confirmation that there is in fact a buy back? 
may just be repeating what other sources have already said..


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

its really nothing - just repeating the same crap over the past 6 months - there still is no fix for the 2.0 cars that will satisfy regulators, VW may have to offer buybacks and compensation as settlement. 3.0 guys I didnt expect much news from, they probably just need to up the urea duty cycle.

If you break those items out of the article there really isn't anything new to report. Sigh, gag order and deadline to make final details by June 21.

Gonna be a long additional 2 months and 75 pages.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Ricky Bobby said:


> its really nothing - just repeating the same crap over the past 6 months - there still is no fix for the 2.0 cars that will satisfy regulators, VW may have to offer buybacks and compensation as settlement. 3.0 guys I didnt expect much news from, they probably just need to up the urea duty cycle.
> 
> If you break those items out of the article there really isn't anything new to report. Sigh, gag order and deadline to make final details by June 21.
> 
> Gonna be a long additional 2 months and 75 pages.


The big news is that the EPA, CARB and the FTC have agreed to this deal in principal. We already knew that most TDIs cannot be fixed.


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

Ricky Bobby said:


> its really nothing - just repeating the same crap over the past 6 months - there still is no fix for the 2.0 cars that will satisfy regulators, VW may have to offer buybacks and compensation as settlement. 3.0 guys I didnt expect much news from, they probably just need to up the urea duty cycle.
> 
> If you break those items out of the article there really isn't anything new to report. Sigh, gag order and deadline to make final details by June 21.
> 
> Gonna be a long additional 2 months and 75 pages.


The news is that VW has agreed in principle to buybacks (which up until now they had been resisting),

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/volkswagen-settlement-emissions-1.3546354



> A deal reached between Volkswagen and the U.S. government over a global diesel emissions scandal that has rocked the automaker will include vehicle buyback offers and the possibility of repairs, says a federal judge.
> 
> Judge Charles Breyer said Thursday in San Francisco that the U.S. agreement will include "substantial" compensation for diesel vehicle owners, but he did not provide details on how much they will get.


http://money.cnn.com/2016/04/21/news/companies/volkswagen-owner-compensation/



> Volkswagen has reached deal to repurchase or fix nearly 500,000 diesel cars that cheat on emission tests, giving car owners the choice of what to do.
> No matter what they choose, owners will also receive "substantial" cash compensation for their trouble.
> Federal Judge Charles Breyer ordered the automaker not to disclose how much money owners will receive while final terms of the deal are being hammered out, but there are widespread reports that the sum is $5,000.


This is front page stuff again, at least for one more day.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

^True and to be honest I'm ok with that - I would rather them get fined and have to invest in electric vehicles, buy carbon credits etc and just compensate owners or offer buyback if they want to get rid of them. The article yesterday that was posted (and obviously it wasn't official details) seemed to hinder on the floating idea that "maybe in the future" they will figure out a way to get them compliant, and if its approved you'd have to get it performed in a CARB state - the report read similar to if you kept your car and got compensation (i.e. a lump sum to keep and settle with VW), you'd be agreeing to a possible future fix without knowing what it was. I'm not a fan of that.

With most things in life and with this scandal, I just want the government and VW off my back and to allow me to drive in peace - or just take the car off my hands for a fair price and I'll move on to something different.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> I've said it before, but it bears being reminded, the largest fine for the violation of the clean air act was levied against Hyundai for their MPG *lie*
> 
> Not only was this issue in regards to *four* times as many vehicles than dieselgate, but their inflated mpg numbers meant they lied to the EPA about the green house emissions, roughly 4.75 million metric tons more over the life of the cars than was anticipated given their numbers.
> 
> ...


Ahem


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

*This offer is not even close....*

In the Detroit News....

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...ssions-scandal/2016/04/20/vw-payout/83296330/



"Kelly Blue Book said the average auction value of used diesel Volkswagens decreased from $14,153 in June 2015 to $10,402 in March of this year. By comparison, the average value of gasoline Volkswagens only fell from $10,946 to $9,815 in the same period."

Ok, TDIs down about 25% and gas versions down about 6%. KBB $ number and published percentages do not line up, don't shoot the messenger.

So, In my case I have a 2010 Touareg TDI and a 2013 Touareg VR6. I live in a CARB state, good old quiche eating, smelly greener, soggy Washington. Yippee! The news article goes on the say that "Compensation of $1 billion works out to about $1,700 per car. But owners of newer cars that require just a software patch may see little compensation. Those with older cars requiring more complicated repairs probably would be paid more because fuel mileage and performance would suffer."

Based on this I will see somewhat less than $1,700. This does not even cover my losses. The TDI was going on he block this year but then the unrealized losses, would actually be losses. Not to mention hassle, hassle, hassle.

I need a new lawyer. ): Just cover my losses, is all I ask.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...e-to-settle-diesel?cciid=email-autonews-blast



> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen Group reached an agreement in principle with U.S. authorities to address the roughly 482,000 2.0-liter diesel VW and Audi vehicles with software designed to mask excess emissions in lab tests.
> 
> A U.S. judge announced today in a court hearing in San Francisco that VW has agreed to offer affected owners several options, including a buyback, lease cancellation and -- pending additional government testing and approval -- the option to have their vehicles modified.
> 
> ...


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

kickercoach said:


> In the Detroit News....
> 
> http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...ssions-scandal/2016/04/20/vw-payout/83296330/
> 
> ...


Your Touareg TDI is not part of this deal.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

*September 30, 2015:*


Chilcoot said:


> Is retrofitting 11 million diesel engines the most efficient way to decrease overall air pollution?
> 
> It may be that a lot more air pollution can be decreased by spending the same amount of money doing other things. Say, by fixing a couple dozen cargo ships, which apparently are unbelievably bad air polluters.
> 
> Might make sense to leave the TDIs as they are, but force VW to buy better emissions controls for a number of coal-fed power plants.


*April 21, 2015:*



ABC News said:


> U.S. District Court Judge Charles Breyer did not offer many specifics, but the settlement includes the option for owners to have the automaker buy back their vehicles.
> 
> Breyer also said *the agreement establishes funds to mediate excessive emissions* and promote green energy.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

kickercoach said:


> In the Detroit News....
> 
> http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...ssions-scandal/2016/04/20/vw-payout/83296330/
> 
> ...


Yes yes yes I understand the 3.0s have not been addressed, officially. I am not holding out hope if the above is anything to go by. Newer, SCR, he must have a pile of money to have two of these things, screw him...

They will probably just pump up the urea injector. The same urea injector that is already over taxed and problematic. Mine is acting up right now. Not to mention the converter will use up the reactive elements faster. 

This sucks. How much should I spend on doing a repair to the urea injection and exhaust system? Previously VW officials had mentioned the 3.0s might get a converter upgrade what does that mean? Does that include supporting system hardware?. Well, the fasteners that hold the exhaust system together are almost gone from heat and corrosion on my rig. I was preparing to the extract the entire system (began acquiring parts) to repair the injection system, replace hardware and have the DPF blown out. Not a cheap trick. So how much longer do I have to wait? Are we going to replace parts of the system twice?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

atomicalex said:


> You mean Freightliner, right? One of those truck companies did the same thing. It's back on page 30 or so, I think.


That was small potatoes, $83 million in fines and $1 billion on "environmental improvements" spread out across several companies. We need to make an example here so no company ever cheats again!

_bahaahahahahahahahahaa_



zhenya00 said:


> IThere is also a matter of scale at play here.


True, more than twice as many trucks were cheating and pumped out an additional 1.3 million tons of NOx per year.



renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Then, they say no details until June:









phil123 said:


> Ahem


I still believe a) any unrealistic fines are a money grab and; b) the whole buyback thing is a colossal waste of resources, that's money VW will spend out to accomplish nothing but appease a few disgruntled owners angry that resale value went down. Give the owners the five grand a piece, and have VW sink a few hundred million into "environmental improvements" and call it a night.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> I still believe a) any unrealistic fines are a money grab and; b) the whole buyback thing is a colossal waste of resources, that's money VW will spend out to accomplish nothing but appease a few disgruntled owners angry that resale value went down. Give the owners the five grand a piece, and have VW sink a few hundred million into "environmental improvements" and call it a night.


I'm not disagreeing with you on some of those points, but i do think the waste of 6 months (by the time this is over 9 months) is worth AT least $5k (Insurance with 3cars instead of just the 2 is $120 a month+registration) + the value of the car prior to this whole debacle. Only time will tell how much and when.


----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

AZGolf said:


> You're so wrong it's not even funny. This is being reported on almost every news site on the internet right now, and the settlement isn't even official. I guarantee if a settlement is announced on the 21st as expected, it will absolutely be front page for every news site and probably even show up in the little news feed on Facebook. It has MASSIVE visibility right now. VW has become a symbol of corporate greed during an election year when voter discontentment has got to be at some kind of record high.


LOL. The death of Prince is getting more press coverage than Volkswagen.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

eweu said:


> LOL. The death of Prince is getting more press coverage than Volkswagen.


The two go hand in hand. He died from n0x emitting diesel VW's.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

He obviously owned a coal roller and similar to running your car in the garage and dying from NO just owning and driving this pollution machine called a TDI just killed him after so many years. Sad.


----------



## Geeked (Nov 20, 2006)

Is there a company or product that will capture the current ECU programming? E.g. copy it as a backup like you would do if you flashed the ECU with 3rd party programming

Enviado desde mi Nexus 5 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

eweu said:


> LOL. The death of Prince is getting more press coverage than Volkswagen.


That's more a statement about culture, but I was right that it's front page news, even on CNN.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

eweu said:


> LOL. The death of Prince is getting more press coverage than Volkswagen.


I wouldn't want to live in a world where that wasn't the case.


----------



## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

eweu said:


> LOL. The death of Prince is getting more press coverage than Volkswagen.


TMZ is reporting that VW had Prince taken out to overshadow dieselgate.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> I was right that it's front page news, even on CNN.g]


No you weren't you made the statement yesterday, not today. It won't be there tomorrow either :laugh:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> TMZ is reporting that VW had Prince taken out to overshadow dieselgate.


I wanna make a joke about Germans, killing people, and emissions.... I really do.

But Prince's death gave me a sad.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

So... those in the US are at least 2-3 months away from knowing exactly what this is gonna look like... 

I'm betting those of us in Canada either won't get the same type of deal... or at least... it'll be near the end of the year when we find out...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW and U.S. government reach agreement in principle to settle diesel violations*




> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen reached an agreement in principle with U.S. authorities to address the roughly 482,000 2.0-liter diesel VW and Audi vehicles with software designed to mask excess emissions in lab tests.
> 
> A U.S. judge announced today in a court hearing in San Francisco that VW has agreed to offer affected owners several options, including a buyback, lease cancellation and -- pending additional government testing and approval -- the option to have their vehicles modified.
> 
> ...


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Gaah.

More waiting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6EnwitRgfw


----------



## bzcat (Nov 26, 2001)

Some questionable VW fan site called vortex has the news on the front page: http://www.vwvortex.com/news/volksw...en-reaches-agreement-with-justice-department/


----------



## MAC (Dec 9, 1999)

Has there been a class action filed yet for the diminished value of all the non-diesel models?


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

MAC said:


> Has there been a class action filed yet for the diminished value of all the non-diesel models?


I hope not, because it would fail.

If I sell you a nice hat at an agreed price, one that fits your head well and completely meets its intended use










I don't have to give you money simply because I tricked some other people into buying shoddy umbrellas that fall apart in stormy weather.










In selling you the hat, I did not guarantee that the hat's market value would not decline because some other product of mine brings disfavor on my brand's reputation.

You got your hat. Be happy.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

MAC said:


> Has there been a class action filed yet for the diminished value of all the non-diesel models?


Is there any evidence of such a thing being caused by anything other than the sales incentives? To the best of my knowledge, resale is roughly unchanged on the non-TDI models and the #1 driving factor in the slight decline was all the fist-fulls of cash they've been throwing at the dealers to prop up sales. Ask 1990's GM about what $5000 in incentives does to the resale value of the existing fleet. That's not illegal, however, it's just how depreciation works.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

MAC said:


> Has there been a class action filed yet for the diminished value of all the non-diesel models?


do you have ANY proof of this "diminished value" of which you speak???? anything empirical?


----------



## Slipstream (Feb 8, 2002)

MAC said:


> Has there been a class action filed yet for the diminished value of all the non-diesel models?


:laugh:

I've said since the beginning that the people who will get screwed by this are the non-TDI VW owners. All the depreciation, none of the reparations.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

*Link to full transcript of the hearing.... (*

Everything else is speculation...

https://www.hbsslaw.com/uploads/case_downloads/volkswagen/april_21_transcript.pdf


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

status update on the 3.0L motors and FTC agreement in 05/19.....which will probably be rolled into the 6/21 deadline for the court to get the final approved agreements, which won't be made public until July 26.....so it's going to be a while folks......



> First, the United States shall file any consent decrees memorializing their agreements with Volkswagen on or before June 21st, 2016. That is in about 60 days.
> 
> Second, the Plaintiffs' Steering Committee shall file a motion for preliminary approval of the settlement of the consumer class action complaint on or before June 21st, 2016.
> The Court then will hold a hearing on the preliminary approval motion on July 26, 2016, at 8:00 a.m.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

kickercoach said:


> Everything else is speculation...
> 
> https://www.hbsslaw.com/uploads/case_downloads/volkswagen/april_21_transcript.pdf


That actually is very vague in details since


> the terms are confidential and subject to an existing court order requiring confidentiality of the terms.


----------



## mpowertech (Mar 9, 2012)

Great info up to this point. Thanks for the transcripts. 
On another note, what's the best way to establish value on your vehicle pre-scandal. If that is one scenario that is utilized? Old NADA book? Sorry if this answer is embedded somewhere in this War and Peace thread.


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

kickercoach said:


> In the Detroit News....
> 
> http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...ssions-scandal/2016/04/20/vw-payout/83296330/
> 
> ...





Slipstream said:


> :laugh:
> 
> I've said since the beginning that the people who will get screwed by this are the non-TDI VW owners. All the depreciation, none of the reparations.


Computer says no.


----------



## HI SPEED (Sep 3, 2004)

Is there a business case for snapping up as many TDIs as possible, and cashing in when VW buys them back?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

mpowertech said:


> Great info up to this point. Thanks for the transcripts.
> On another note, what's the best way to establish value on your vehicle pre-scandal. If that is one scenario that is utilized? Old NADA book? Sorry if this answer is embedded somewhere in this War and Peace thread.


The various valuation services keep historic records. Using the Toyota pickup truck buybacks as an example, the owners got 150% of the Excellent condition value listed in KBB from before the frame recall was announced. So you don't have to, or rather you don't _get to_ determine the valuation, it will be a calculation determined by a 3rd party. That's the only way to keep it fair: don't let either VW nor the owners set a valuation, since both have a personal financial reason to skew their results. The 3rd party has historic records they can simply pull from their files and turn over. Again, since they are historic values, they are not subject to tampering or manipulation. We'll find out June 21st, it sounds like.


----------



## BeBop! (Jun 18, 2009)

HI SPEED said:


> Is there a business case for snapping up as many TDIs as possible, and cashing in when VW buys them back?


I'm sure they will limit the number of cars one person can be reimbursed for.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

HI SPEED said:


> Is there a business case for snapping up as many TDIs as possible, and cashing in when VW buys them back?


I too thought of this, but i think you would have to target Gen 1 TDIs.


----------



## JohnNS (Sep 21, 2015)

E CODE said:


> So... those in the US are at least 2-3 months away from knowing exactly what this is gonna look like...
> 
> I'm betting those of us in Canada either won't get the same type of deal... or at least... it'll be near the end of the year when we find out...


I know it's bad form to ask how much you're betting after providing the link, but..

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...of-more-than-100000-vehicles/article29710515/

We likely will be slightly behind the US though, so you have the "at least" covered


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

BeBop! said:


> I'm sure they will limit the number of cars one person can be reimbursed for.


What if your family is die hard VW fans and you only have one person with good credit so i have 10 cars registered under mr phil123, how about that?


----------



## BeBop! (Jun 18, 2009)

phil123 said:


> What if your family is die hard VW fans and you only have one person with good credit so i have 10 cars registered under mr phil123, how about that?


I guess it's possible, but not very likely. Perhaps you need to show proof of owning the cars for a certain period of time. The people making the terms of the buy-back are not stupid. They will have certain rules to qualify.


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

HI SPEED said:


> Is there a business case for snapping up as many TDIs as possible, and cashing in when VW buys them back?


Keep in mind people registered for the goodwill package. I'm sure VW thought ahead and used this as a tool, at least in part to assess the situation and perhaps prevent people from being unreasonably opportunistic in the future if things went sideways.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

BeBop! said:


> The people making the terms of the buy-back are not stupid.


If they buyback/fix occurs it doesn't matter how long you've owned the car, or how many of them you have, it is being done *cough* in the name of the environment *cough*. The $5k?, or any payout, to appease the injured TDI owners might have some stipulations to it, but if history is a guide the 1k in gift cards didn't come with strings attached......


----------



## tacticalbeaver (Apr 27, 2006)

HI SPEED said:


> Is there a business case for snapping up as many TDIs as possible, and cashing in when VW buys them back?


Their first goodwill offer had a few conditions, one of which was something like people had to own the cars before the dieselgate news broke. I am sure the upcoming offers will have conditions as well.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

seftonm said:


> Their first goodwill offer had a few conditions, one of which was something like people had to own the cars before the dieselgate news broke. I am sure the upcoming offers will have conditions as well.


Really? I thought Uber Wagon got the rebate and bought after the scandal....... confirmation?


----------



## firstorbit84 (Feb 25, 2006)

phil123 said:


> What if your family is die hard VW fans and you only have one person with good credit so i have 10 cars registered under mr phil123, how about that?


there are really people out there like this.


----------



## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> TMZ is reporting that VW had Prince taken out to overshadow dieselgate.


The Artist formerly known as alive.........


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> The various valuation services keep historic records. Using the Toyota pickup truck buybacks as an example, the owners got 150% of the Excellent condition value listed in KBB from before the frame recall was announced. So you don't have to, or rather you don't _get to_ determine the valuation, it will be a calculation determined by a 3rd party. That's the only way to keep it fair: don't let either VW nor the owners set a valuation, since both have a personal financial reason to skew their results. The 3rd party has historic records they can simply pull from their files and turn over. Again, since they are historic values, they are not subject to tampering or manipulation. We'll find out June 21st, it sounds like.


I'm assuming its historic resale value coupled with current miles on vehicle at trade-in/buyback?


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

phil123 said:


> What if your family is die hard VW fans and you only have one person with good credit so i have 10 cars registered under mr phil123, how about that?


Cut that cord.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

So now that the cat is out of the bag, who will be getting rid of their cars? What will you replace it with?


----------



## Volkl (Oct 2, 2003)

BeBop! said:


> I'm sure they will limit the number of cars one person can be reimbursed for.


There are plenty of companies that have TDIs for fleet vehicles. I doubt there will be a limit on the number of vehicles one can be reimbursed for.


----------



## GlhTroy (Aug 6, 2013)

I will be having mine bought back, I will be replacing it with my wife's 2011 Hyundai SantaFe and v6. It is paid for and I told her she can get the next new whatever she wants. This however all hinges on how much VW will be buying the cars back for and/or possible other incentives of purchasing a new or used Volkswagen. As of now I will be pushing a Hyundai for a couple years after it is bought back. If I let them buy it back, it will not be repaired that is certain. 

Remember happy wife=happy life.plus I still have the mk1for fun

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Volkl (Oct 2, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> So now that the cat is out of the bag, who will be getting rid of their cars? What will you replace it with?


I'm considering it. I had owned my car less than 2 months when the scandal broke, so I should be able to get a lot of cash out of it. Drive a car for a year, get all of your money back, plus $5K? Sounds like a good deal to me. 

The problem would be replacing it, there is nothing that fits my needs better than the car I currently own. I guess I could go back to having a company car.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

Volkl said:


> I'm considering it. I had owned my car less than 2 months when the scandal broke, so I should be able to get a lot of cash out of it. Drive a car for a year, get all of your money back, plus $5K? Sounds like a good deal to me.
> 
> The problem would be replacing it, there is nothing that fits my needs better than the car I currently own. I guess I could go back to having a company car.


You aren't getting 'all' your money back, especially after putting miles on it. VW isn't stupid. It's going to be funny to see people upset after putting XX amount of miles on their cars coming into dealers expecting a full refund of their purchase price.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

aj4066 said:


> So now that the cat is out of the bag, who will be getting rid of their cars? What will you replace it with?


I'm going to have a real hard time not taking the buyback. Don't get me wrong, the $5k to have the car fixed is certainly fair in my opinion but at this point I nearly have the car paid off and would really like to buy a Sprinter for my business. Between the buyback and the $5k (if that's how it ends up going) I'd be able to buy a substantially nicer/newer model than I was planning on purchasing and own it outright.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Legal hurdles remain for VW in U.S. despite emissions deal*



> NEW YORK -- Volkswagen Group faces further legal fights on several fronts in the U.S. despite its announcement on Thursday it reached a preliminary deal to resolve consumers' and regulators' claims over vehicles fitted with software to cheat on diesel-emissions tests.
> 
> The U.S. Department of Justice said its criminal investigation into VW's conduct remained ongoing, and a multi-state probe into consumer and environmental violations will continue, according to New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman, whose office is among those leading the investigation.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW's European customers frustrated as automaker reaches U.S. diesel deal*



> FRANKFURT/LONDON -- European owners of Volkswagen cars read the details of a deal to compensate U.S. drivers for the diesel-emissions scandal with frustration as their wait for settlement enters its eighth month.
> 
> European lawyers say their clients deserve a similar offer to the one that was announced by a U.S. judge on Thursday and includes buybacks or possible fixes at an estimated cost to VW of more than $10 billion.
> 
> ...


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

MXTHOR3 said:


> You aren't getting 'all' your money back, especially after putting miles on it. VW isn't stupid. It's going to be funny to see people upset after putting XX amount of miles on their cars coming into dealers expecting a full refund of their purchase price.


I'll take that bet. 

Values will be based upon pre Sept-15 conditions. Mileage accrued during the interim period will not be factored in. It's not the owner's fault VW has dragged this out for 7+ months.


----------



## Volkl (Oct 2, 2003)

MXTHOR3 said:


> You aren't getting 'all' your money back, especially after putting miles on it. VW isn't stupid. It's going to be funny to see people upset after putting XX amount of miles on their cars coming into dealers expecting a full refund of their purchase price.


The unconfirmed reports in the media right now are stating we would be offered Sept 2015 market value. 

I bought the car for below invoice less than 2 months prior. If we do indeed get offered pre-dieselgate values, especially when one adds in the $5K (if that is indeed the amount we are offered), I should be able to walk away, having driven the vehicle for a year, and having made money off the deal. 

If that isn't the case, no big deal. I'll take the money, and the fix (I already have urea injection anyway), and continue enjoying my car.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

"BREAKING: Volkswagen raises provisions for emissions scandal to €16 billion ($18 billion)"


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

I will be participating in the buyback (+cash if rumors are true) unsure of replacement vehicle....


http://www.buybackmytdi.com/index.php/tdi-price-trends


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

so, 10k (pre sept 15 value) plus 5k? 15k for our 09 jetta? Im taking it as soon as it is offered. 
It was a great car. We put 60k miles on it since feb 15, took it to from detroit to LA, was just great. (have 160k miles on it now) It will be missed,
but an 09 D3 S8 would be a very welcome replacement.
I think im going to stop driving it and keep it in my garage(the jetta) to make sure nothing happens to it, sitting on a jewel here.

also, 18b/500k cars is 36,000 which is aroudn the max the EPA can charge per car or so right? Interesting how the details play out.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

The longer I'm allowed to wait before doing the buyback, the more likely I am to take it, and spend the resulting money on a new vw beetle dune convertible.


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

Where's the compensation for non-TDI VW owners whose cars have lost resale value due to this fracas?
VW owes me at least $1,500.

I  bro.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

My car is on a lease and at the time, my commute to work justified it. I had full intentions on keeping my car at the end of the lease. I took the lease because the deal was better than buying when I took the car. (that situation is for another thread) 

That said, my lease is up May 2017. According to the reports, those in a lease will be treated the same way, and an early-out will be an option. My next car will be a purchase, but I think I might just get out of VW all together. Yes, VW is now offering decent compensation. I have a lot of mixed feelings on this whole scandal though. I'm not a tree-hugger by any means, but the deception that VW created is pretty insane to me and I don't know that I want to continue to give their brand money. 

A GTI PP or possibly even a Golf R may be in the picture, depending on the deal VW is willing to make. The 10th gen Civic Si will soon be on the market, and I have also had thoughts of a smaller truck, like a Tacoma. I know, my decisions are all of the board, but I suppose now its time to put some real serious thought to a future purchase that will likely happen within the next 6 months.


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

Lwize said:


> Where's the compensation for non-TDI VW owners whose cars have lost resale value due to this fracas?
> VW owes me at least $1,500.
> 
> I  bro.


VW doesn't owe you jack


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

cpermd said:


> VW doesn't owe you jack


Bingo.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

Lwize said:


> Where's the compensation for non-TDI VW owners whose cars have lost resale value due to this fracas?
> VW owes me at least $1,500.
> 
> I  bro.


This is a valid concern. My GLI is losing value at a shocking rate. I have one year to go in the lease and the market value is over $1000 below lease term residual, and I am WAY under miles.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

VW loses value a ton anyway. Even before the scandal my diesel lost a bunch of value within months. Who the hell buys a VW or any other european car thinking it's going to "hold value"??


----------



## Slipstream (Feb 8, 2002)

Mike! said:


> Computer says no.


Quote KBB to a dealer and they'll tell you to go pound sand. I had my car appraised by a few different dealerships recently and the depreciation on a MKV GTI after 5k mi and one year of ownership was staggering. The VW sales manager even told me "I'm up against a wall on used VWs right now, this is the best I can do." 

The depreciation may not be AS aggressive as TDIs but it's definitely there... especially in less VW-popular areas. Even if you do subscribe to KBB's average auction values, their math sucks. The decrease in average depreciation for non-diesel VWs is nearly *12%*, not 6%. That's a pretty big dip for a seven month window of time and that will likely continue to increase as the effect of incentive cash starts to take hold.

VW doesn't technically owe non-TDI owners anything but they shouldn't be surprised when we leave the brand with a sour taste in our mouths.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Maximum_Download said:


> This is a valid concern. My GLI is losing value at a shocking rate. I have one year to go in the lease and the market value is over $1000 below lease term residual, and I am WAY under miles.


On the bright side, you said you have a lease. You get the luxury of just turning the car in at the end and walking away. Honestly, this whole scandal has proven the value of leasing.

On the topic of resale, this photo which rides with a Yahoo Finance article hits a lot of the hot buttons.


----------



## poopy_pants (Aug 10, 2000)

cpermd said:


> VW doesn't owe you jack


True, but good luck getting me to ever buy a VW again. Along with the crap build quality of my MK7 and now the huge hit to value. I'm done.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

wannabeeuroTR said:


> VW loses value a ton anyway. Even before the scandal my diesel lost a bunch of value within months. Who the hell buys a VW or any other european car thinking it's going to "hold value"??


All cars lose value after you buy them but some depreciation curves are shallower and some are steeper, with TDI historically being the former which is partially the reason I bought one. You're an idiot if you buy cars expecting to make money or break even, but you can make a calculated risk based on which is most likely to suffer fewer losses. 

I the end it's all a gamble and we lost.


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

PolishSasquatch said:


> I think im going to stop driving it and keep it in my garage(the jetta) to make sure nothing happens to it, sitting on a jewel here.


That's a good point. If my timing belt snaps before the buyback, will they still buy it back???


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> So now that the cat is out of the bag, who will be getting rid of their cars? What will you replace it with?


My son is the one in the family who owns a 2010 JSW TDI. Not sure if he would replace it or not. I guess is depends on where he ends up this summer after he finishes his degree. The JSW TDI has really been the wrong car for him for the last 5 years in Palo Alto with his lab about 1 mile from his apartment. Although his girlfriend used the car for a couple of years commuting to SF and working elsewhere in the valley. He would have been better off with what everyone else drives there; a Prius. He likes the new Volt though.


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

wannabeeuroTR said:


> VW loses value a ton anyway. Even before the scandal my diesel lost a bunch of value within months. Who the hell buys a VW or any other european car thinking it's going to "hold value"??


From here, the VW looks pretty good. There are quite a few of them around, possibly outnumbering the Toyota Prius. It doesn't hurt that Diesel fuel here is so much cheaper than unleaded regular, that there are large numbers of independent VW mechanics, and that almost any long trip is through twisty mountain roads. Even at the depths of post-scandal pricing, values here are probably higher than other parts of the country pre-scandal. I know I bought new at MSRP to save money over used.

Unless there is some regional pricing, I doubt I'd accept the VW buyout, when I can likely sell the car locally for much more. Depending what happens, I expect a lot of the used cars to come here. They are pretty ideal for our local driving needs.


----------



## fknlo (Jun 30, 2004)

aj4066 said:


> So now that the cat is out of the bag, who will be getting rid of their cars? What will you replace it with?


I'll consider the Sportwagen Alltrack. That's about the only thing VW has coming to market that even remotely interests me. Outside of that, not really sure.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

*Mercedes, Opel, Porsche and VW recall 630,000 diesel-powered cars in Germany*


> German government investigation uncovers inconsistencies in emissions after treatment systems
> 
> German car makers Mercedes, Opel, Porsche and Volkswagen are recalling more than 630,000 diesel-powered vehicles after irregularities with emissions systems were discovered.
> 
> ...


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

People 'investing' in a TDI are idiots.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

MXTHOR3 said:


> People 'investing' in a TDI are idiots.


always makes me chuckle and think 'idiot' whenever i hear normal people (not collectors) talk about how they INVESTED money into a car...
:laugh:

tdi or not, no one is investing money by buying jettas (or C classes, or civics, or denalis, or new m5's)
:banghead:


----------



## Lwize (Dec 4, 2000)

wannabeeuroTR said:


> VW loses value a ton anyway. Even before the scandal my diesel lost a bunch of value within months. Who the hell buys a VW or any other european car thinking it's going to "hold value"??


Seven-year-old Rabbits don't drop $1,500 in blue book value over the course of only two months, but that's what happened after the scandal broke. 
Guilty by association.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Maximum_Download said:


> This is a valid concern. My GLI is losing value at a shocking rate. *I have one year to go in the lease and the market value is over $1000 below lease term residual, and I am WAY under miles*.


:facepalm: it's a friggin LEASE!!!!!

you get nothing!!! [willywonka.jpg]


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

You'reDrunk said:


> :facepalm: it's a friggin LEASE!!!!!
> 
> you get nothing!!! [willywonka.jpg]


:laugh::laugh:


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

Slipstream said:


> Quote KBB to a dealer and they'll tell you to go pound sand. I had my car appraised by a few different dealerships recently and the depreciation on a MKV GTI after 5k mi and one year of ownership was staggering. The VW sales manager even told me "I'm up against a wall on used VWs right now, this is the best I can do."
> 
> The depreciation may not be AS aggressive as TDIs but it's definitely there... especially in less VW-popular areas. Even if you do subscribe to KBB's average auction values, their math sucks. The decrease in average depreciation for non-diesel VWs is nearly *12%*, not 6%. That's a pretty big dip for a seven month window of time and that will likely continue to increase as the effect of incentive cash starts to take hold.
> 
> VW doesn't technically owe non-TDI owners anything but they shouldn't be surprised when we leave the brand with a sour taste in our mouths.


Just as likely dealerships are kicking VW owners while they are down to help increase profit margins on used cars. If everyone sings the same tune owners that want to trade in will have no other options than to take the financial hit.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW posts $4.6 billion 2015 operating loss on emissions-cheating charge*



> FRANKFURT -- Volkswagen Group today said it had a 4.1 billion euros ($4.61 billion) operating loss for 2015 as the company took a 16.2 billion euros hit to pay for its diesel emissions test-rigging scandal.
> 
> "The current crisis is having a huge impact on Volkswagen’s financial position," CEO Matthias Mueller said in a statement, adding that the "repercussions of the emissions issue are now quantifiable."
> 
> ...


----------



## Jason4 (Sep 15, 2001)

spockcat said:


> My son is the one in the family who owns a 2010 JSW TDI. Not sure if he would replace it or not. I guess is depends on where he ends up this summer after he finishes his degree. *The JSW TDI has really been the wrong car for him for the last 5 years in Palo Alto with his lab about 1 mile from his apartment*. Although his girlfriend used the car for a couple of years commuting to SF and working elsewhere in the valley. He would have been better off with what everyone else drives there; a Prius. He likes the new Volt though.


Or a bicycle.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

3.2 mil bonus..wow (and thats what it was cut down to!)


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

You'reDrunk said:


> :facepalm: it's a friggin LEASE!!!!!
> 
> you get nothing!!! [willywonka.jpg]


I understand how the business works and this is a situation where I am damn glad I lease. I am just saying the residuals of ALL their cars are tanking because of this. They are throwing incentives at new cars to get them to move, which puts pressure on the residuals of the used cars, on top of the reputation hit.

I am going to be fine, and it's a minor annoyance at best since I would usually be shopping for my new car by now, and I cannot. I feel bad for the other GLI and CC and whathaveyou owners who bought their cars and are now seeing severe depreciation over and above what the car depreciated at before.

Those are the real losers here.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

not that anyone cares... :laugh:

but by the time this scandal closes out, if we are offered a buy-back, we will likely be going that way.
not that i hate the car its our 5th TDI, not that i hate VW (a bit disappointed sure)... not that we would even need to get rid of it.

but according to the time passed from purchase to likely scandal conclusion we will be pretty darn close to the 3 yr mark.
and since the wifey doesnt NEED a wagon anymore with my purchase of a minivan.

we might just take the opportunity to get out of the older, 'bigger' car to get into a Golf or maybe even break ranks completely to get her an EV or some sort.


----------



## Volkl (Oct 2, 2003)

Maximum_Download said:


> I understand how the business works and this is a situation where I am damn glad I lease. I am just saying the residuals of ALL their cars are tanking because of this. They are throwing incentives at new cars to get them to move, which puts pressure on the residuals of the used cars, on top of the reputation hit.
> 
> I am going to be fine, and it's a minor annoyance at best since I would usually be shopping for my new car by now, and I cannot. I feel bad for the other GLI and CC and whathaveyou owners who bought their cars and are now seeing severe depreciation over and above what the car depreciated at before.
> 
> Those are the real losers here.


Where is the evidence that non-TDI VWs are taking a hit in value from Dieselgate?

Edmunds puts the 5 year depreciation on a Passat SE at $7811. 5 year depreciation on an Accord LX is $7786 and a Camry LE is $8153.


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

Maximum_Download said:


> This is a valid concern. My GLI is losing value at a shocking rate. I have one year to go in the lease and the market value is over $1000 below lease term residual, and I am WAY under miles.


Que??


----------



## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

Volkl said:


> Where is the evidence that non-TDI VWs are taking a hit in value from Dieselgate?
> 
> Edmunds puts the 5 year depreciation on a Passat SE at $7811. 5 year depreciation on an Accord LX is $7786 and a Camry LE is $8153.


They are. I have a 2005 Passat GL, 107K with auto and leather as the only options, and KBB says Trade In @ Good condition is $998. A few months ago, it was down to about $650. but as this mess gets more distanced behind us, values will increase. I would guess that if not for DG, my Passat, even being the Base Model it is, should be about 2K.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

fiftysomething said:


> They are. I have a 2005 Passat GL, 107K with auto and leather as the only options, and KBB says Trade In @ Good condition is $998. A few months ago, it was down to about $650. but as this mess gets more distanced behind us, values will increase. I would guess that if not for DG, my Passat, even being the Base Model it is, should be about 2K.


So it isn't that the car because a year older when the 2016 models hit the showroom floors or that you rolled over the magic 100k mark?


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

fiftysomething said:


> They are. I have a 2005 Passat GL, 107K with auto and leather as the only options, and KBB says Trade In @ Good condition is $998. A few months ago, it was down to about $650. but as this mess gets more distanced behind us, values will increase. I would guess that if not for DG, my Passat, even being the Base Model it is, should be about 2K.


You have no idea what it's worth until you actually attempt to sell it. I can't imagine how dieselgate would affect the price on an 11 year old base model Passat with 100k miles on it.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> On the bright side, you said you have a lease. You get the luxury of just turning the car in at the end and walking away. Honestly, this whole scandal has proven the value of leasing.
> 
> On the topic of resale, this photo which rides with a Yahoo Finance article hits a lot of the hot buttons.


These people are idiots. A vehicle is not an "investment". It's a horrible depreciating commodity, some more than others. This lady should be a propaganda pro.


A vehicle is only "worth" what someone is willing to pay for it.


----------



## pure85gti (Jan 13, 2004)

What's so special about the 100k miles mark? My TDI Cup is at 90k, should I just park it when it hits 99k and buy a beater?


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

dunhamjr said:


> not that anyone cares... :laugh:
> 
> but by the time this scandal closes out, if we are offered a buy-back, we will likely be going that way.
> not that i hate the car its our 5th TDI, not that i hate VW (a bit disappointed sure)... not that we would even need to get rid of it.
> ...


I've got a feeling that once this late June meeting is completed, where real solutions become concrete, the ball will start rolling pretty quick. As soon as the green flag drops, other auto makers will become vultures for business and TDI owners will become huge targets. I'd be certain that VW dealerships that are multi-brand, will be sending out flyers with great incentives. 

I expect to be out of my car by years end.


----------



## DonL (Feb 28, 1999)

From an article a couple of pages back: 



> It has been reported that Mercedes diesels shut down the EGC aftertreatment systems at 10 degrees centigrade, while Opel’s is shut down at 17 degrees. This means that, while the systems would run at full effectiveness in the official laboratory emissions tests, they would regularly not be effective in everyday use.


So they're shutting down the EGC before the car even reaches room temp (usually 22-23°C)? If the testing lab is running a nominal room temp, then, by extension, wouldn't there have to be a cheat/rig to run the EGC at those conditions to meet the emissions test? I'm not entirely up on my diesel technology, but it just reads strangely. :screwy:


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

aj4066 said:


> I've got a feeling that once this late June meeting is completed, where real solutions become concrete, the ball will start rolling pretty quick. As soon as the green flag drops, other auto makers will become vultures for business and TDI owners will become huge targets. I'd be certain that VW dealerships that are multi-brand, will be sending out flyers with great incentives.
> 
> I expect to be out of my car by years end.


There's probably going to be a run on current VW inventory when that happens as well. Some folks will want to go from TDI Jetta to GTI for example....


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

aj4066 said:


> I've got a feeling that once this late June meeting is completed, where real solutions become concrete, the ball will start rolling pretty quick. As soon as the green flag drops, other auto makers will become vultures for business and TDI owners will become huge targets. I'd be certain that VW dealerships that are multi-brand, will be sending out flyers with great incentives.
> 
> I expect to be out of my car by years end.


well sure... but once late June comes, that really means July.
my car is 3 yrs old in November... its only a couple months from July to November (i note this because that is when the warranty is up)... i can easily seeing it take 3-4 months to get everything in full swing.
so by the time that all happens the 2018 models will be in showrooms as well.

^^^ which to me means that maybe I can get a good deal on a leftover 2017 TSI golf or golf wagon.:beer:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

DonL said:


> So they're shutting down the EGC before the car even reaches room temp (usually 22-23°C)? If the testing lab is running a nominal room temp, then, by extension, wouldn't there have to be a cheat/rig to run the EGC at those conditions to meet the emissions test? I'm not entirely up on my diesel technology, but it just reads strangely. :screwy:


The temperatures refer to the ambient temperature sensor. When the ambient (outside) air temperature drops below 10 to 17C, it shuts down parts of the emissions system. If testing is done at 72F / 22C, then lab testing would be with everything fully functional, while real world night driving and winter usage (as well as spring & fall in many parts of Europe and northern US/Canada) would be with the emissions aftertreatment deactivated for longevity.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

pure85gti said:


> What's so special about the 100k miles mark? My TDI Cup is at 90k, should I just park it when it hits 99k and buy a beater?


nothing besides most of the general public is weary of it (since most believe 100k means a car is dead or a maintenance nightmare)


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

DonL said:


> From an article a couple of pages back:
> 
> 
> 
> So they're shutting down the EGC before the car even reaches room temp (usually 22-23°C)? If the testing lab is running a nominal room temp, then, by extension, wouldn't there have to be a cheat/rig to run the EGC at those conditions to meet the emissions test? I'm not entirely up on my diesel technology, but it just reads strangely. :screwy:


These tests were likely done on-the-road using portable emission test equipment.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

DerSpiegel said:


> There's probably going to be a run on current VW inventory when that happens as well. Some folks will want to go from TDI Jetta to GTI for example....


Points finger to myself, if I stay with VW. 



dunhamjr said:


> well sure... but once late June comes, that really means July.
> my car is 3 yrs old in November... its only a couple months from July to November (i note this because that is when the warranty is up)... i can easily seeing it take 3-4 months to get everything in full swing.
> so by the time that all happens the 2018 models will be in showrooms as well.
> 
> ^^^ which to me means that maybe I can get a good deal on a leftover 2017 TSI golf or golf wagon.:beer:


I thought you were saying it would be years before anything happened. 

I doubt there will be any 'left overs'. VW will almost certainly offer deep incentives, along with the $5k, to keep people in the brand.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

rich! said:


> nothing besides most of the general public is weary of it (since most believe 100k means a car is dead or a maintenance nightmare)


...and a lot catch fire.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Jalopnik: What car should you buy to replace your diesel VW?

http://jalopnik.com/what-car-should-you-buy-to-replace-your-diesel-volkswag-1772248379


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

cpermd said:


> Que??


Just say you don't understand, and explain X, and I will do it.

On the last 3 VWs I have leased, I have either trended towards positive equity at best, or at worst, breakeven around the 1.5 year mark. In plain English, I can trade out of the car cleanly before my lease ended into another lease.

That's not what is happening with my GLI, in fact, it's trending MUCH worse than the last 3. It has depreciated beyond the lease residual already, and I have 1 year to go. I also am way under miles, which usually helps my equity situation.

I looked into it last moth and had a friend pull the Manheim Auction results, and the highest trade in offer for a 2014 Jetta GLi in the whole country was for a totally loaded one with DSG and less miles than mine has, for $15,XXX - which is about a grand less than my end-of-lease contracted residual value.

Further confusing matters, none of the online valuation models are picking up on this. All of them are about $3,000 higher than my real world trade in value.

What this means is my car will continue to depreciate at it's current rate, and when my lease is up, I will be between $2,000 and $4,000 apart between the real value, and the stated lease value. That means I give it back to Volkswagen and they get to eat it.

I blame the incentives and the Dieselgate scandal as partly the to blame. It ALSO means VW is artificially propping up the residuals on GLIs to get them to lease cheaply, and they are gearing up to take a bath on every single one that comes back in.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

Volkl said:


> Where is the evidence that non-TDI VWs are taking a hit in value from Dieselgate?
> 
> Edmunds puts the 5 year depreciation on a Passat SE at $7811. 5 year depreciation on an Accord LX is $7786 and a Camry LE is $8153.


See my previous post. None of the online tools are accurately picking up on the depreciation costs right now, which suggest this issue is happening in real-time.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

With any luck, the end of the buyback period will coincide with my moving to a place with a 5 mile commute instead of a 66 mile commute, and I'll take the buyback money and get a used maserati to take to coffee & cars on the weekends, and ride a bicycle to work.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

So they have in principle agreed to a buyback and compensation for the current owners and this is some type of resolution? Without the details being ironed out they may be right back where they were months ago.

No different than a lawsuit where one person agrees in principle he should pay the other something, not sure it means anything without the details.


----------



## csr67 (Oct 24, 2003)

grawk said:


> With any luck, the end of the buyback period will coincide with my moving to a place with a 5 mile commute instead of a 66 mile commute, and I'll take the buyback money and get a used maserati to take to coffee & cars on the weekends, and ride a bicycle to work.


^^ That right there is proper living! Well done!


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

aj4066 said:


> Points finger to myself, if I stay with VW.
> 
> I thought you were saying it would be years before anything happened.
> 
> I doubt there will be any 'left overs'. VW will almost certainly offer deep incentives, along with the $5k, to keep people in the brand.


nope, didnt mean to imply it would take years.:thumbup:

as for leftovers... in november? yeah there will still be a number of prior model year cars around to choose from.
thats how i bought my 2008 GTI and how we bought the 2013 JSW.

i screwed up and meant left over 2016's not 2017's though.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

grawk said:


> With any luck, the end of the buyback period will coincide with my moving to a place with a 5 mile commute instead of a 66 mile commute, and I'll take the buyback money and get a used maserati to take to coffee & cars on the weekends, and ride a bicycle to work.


#winning :thumbup:


----------



## DonL (Feb 28, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> The temperatures refer to the ambient temperature sensor. When the ambient (outside) air temperature drops below 10 to 17C, it shuts down parts of the emissions system. If testing is done at 72F / 22C, then lab testing would be with everything fully functional, while real world night driving and winter usage (as well as spring & fall in many parts of Europe and northern US/Canada) would be with the emissions aftertreatment deactivated for longevity.


Ah, it's _below_ that temp. The way I read the statment, it was shutting it down if the temps _exceeded_ those temps. No wonder getting through the tweedle beetle battles were so hard for me.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

What about all those poor leftover 2015 TDI's and the newer 2016 TDI's sitting in port? Golfs, Jettas, Passats, GSW's etc - even the Tiguan

Does anyone feel bad that they are just sitting there rotting - by the time this is all hammered out and maybe start happening we'll be at the 1 year mark and everyone will be wanting a nice fresh 2017 or hold out 6-8 months for a 2018 build - doesn't anyone care about those poor cars? I feel like they are the Island of Misfit Toys :laugh::laugh::laugh:

I can only imagine if they were cleared to sell the Gen 3 TDI's what kind of super deep discounts you'd get on a 2 year old leftover 2015.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Ricky Bobby said:


> I can only imagine if they were cleared to sell the Gen 3 TDI's what kind of super deep discounts you'd get on a 2 year old leftover 2015.


All with next to no mileage, and still covered by warranty.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

I'm keeping my car because I love it. I'd like to buy another one too.


----------



## Mightion (Mar 19, 2008)

So, what are they going to do with however few 2016 TDIs that have been languishing at port? I notice nothing about the settlement gets the '16s cleared to sell. Too much longer and the new model year will be upon us...

Rebrand them as '17's?

Sell them as literally leftover '16s with discounts so deep you can see China?

Side note: I hope they're at least storing them indoors...


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

Mightion said:


> So, what are they going to do with however few 2016 TDIs that have been languishing at port? I notice nothing about the settlement gets the '16s cleared to sell. Too much longer and the new model year will be upon us...
> 
> Rebrand them as '17's?
> 
> ...


depending on these incredible discounts, im going to have a very hard time not getting one of these leftovermobiles.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Mightion said:


> So, what are they going to do with however few 2016 TDIs that have been languishing at port? I notice nothing about the settlement gets the '16s cleared to sell. Too much longer and the new model year will be upon us...
> 
> Rebrand them as '17's?
> 
> ...


the local dealer has an off-site lot that they are storing ALL 2016 Diesel's at.....in the open.


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

You'reDrunk said:


> the local dealer has an off-site lot that they are storing ALL 2016 Diesel's at.....in the open.


mmm, in vegas.


----------



## Volkl (Oct 2, 2003)

The bigger concern for those of us that don't live in the desert is what have they done with the diesel fuel sitting in those cars? By the time this is all said and done, some of that fuel will probably be 1.5 years old.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

jreed1337 said:


> depending on these incredible discounts, im going to have a very hard time not getting one of these leftovermobiles.


yep.
thats really a very likely scenario for us.

we got the '13 JSW on a black friday sale for $4k off... consider the hole they are in now, should be able to get similar or better when the time comes.


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

****3.0 content****

Any guesses as to what happens to VW/AUDI/Porsches with 3.0 diesels? We 3.0 owners were included in the $1000 good will round. Will there be more to come? My thoughts:

Buyback? Improbable, because:

* The 3.0s were installed in higher MSRP vehicles so the buyback price would be prohibitive for VW.
* The 3.0s have urea so hardware issues are fewer, if any, as compared to 2.0s.
* The 3.0s can presumably be "reprogrammed" so they meet CARB/EPA standards without adding costly hardware

So if no buyback, what then?
* Mandatory reprogramming? Hard to enforce, at least for those out of warranty.
* Surreptitious reprogramming? Those of us with 100k extended warranties will likely be at the dealer at some point. Maybe dealers reprogram without owner consent.
* Bribed reprogramming? Here's $5000, let us reprogram your car's computer to comply with CARB/EPA. 

If reprogramming is the "fix", will it affect usability? And will owner care?
* Would make car "greener" as advertised?
* Will decrease fuel mileage? 
* Will decrease performance?
* Will use more AdBlue?
* Will hasten wear of emissions equipment not designed to run as reprogrammed?

My guess: VW offers 3.0 no buyback. It offers larger cash reward to those willing to be reprogrammed. It offers small, or no, cash reward to those who decline to reprogram - and gives the balance to EPA as a credit offset for the extra pollution. VW it offers little to nothing for depreciation due to brand perception, reasoning that the 3.0 is an easy fix readily available for free to owners, and if you don't want it, that's fine.

I love my Touareg TDI. My hope is that whatever they decide I get to leave it alone. No imposed hardware or software changes.


----------



## Mightion (Mar 19, 2008)

Volkl said:


> The bigger concern for those of us that don't live in the desert is what have they done with the diesel fuel sitting in those cars? By the time this is all said and done, some of that fuel will probably be 1.5 years old.


Well, when I test drove a TSI S last August, the fuel gauge was on empty; and it was the car on the lot with the *most* gas in it, my salesman said.

Needless to say, we brought the salesman on the test drive - no way was I taking a drive in an unfamiliar car with an empty gas gauge and me with no cellphone.

TL,DR: There probably isn't that much fuel in the car to worry about that draining/cleaning wouldn't be an issue. But, I don't work in the car industry.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Volkl said:


> The bigger concern for those of us that don't live in the desert is what have they done with the diesel fuel sitting in those cars? By the time this is all said and done, some of that fuel will probably be 1.5 years old.


diesel doesn't separate out like gasoline...but it is hygroscopic (attracts water), so my assumption is the cars would be brought back in and re-PDId, fuel filters changed, etc


----------



## 71DubBugBug (Dec 3, 2006)

Ricky Bobby said:


> What about all those poor leftover 2015 TDI's and the newer 2016 TDI's sitting in port? Golfs, Jettas, Passats, GSW's etc - even the Tiguan
> 
> Does anyone feel bad that they are just sitting there rotting - by the time this is all hammered out and maybe start happening we'll be at the 1 year mark and everyone will be wanting a nice fresh 2017 or hold out 6-8 months for a 2018 build - doesn't anyone care about those poor cars? I feel like they are the Island of Misfit Toys :laugh::laugh::laugh:
> 
> I can only imagine if they were cleared to sell the Gen 3 TDI's what kind of super deep discounts you'd get on a 2 year old leftover 2015.


I am also very interested in the 2015/2016 2L engines that would only need a software update. One would assume that since its the easies "fix", VW would take care of it first.


----------



## csr67 (Oct 24, 2003)

Bird67 said:


> Any guesses as to what happens to VW/AUDI/Porsches with 3.0 diesels? We 3.0 owners were included in the $1000 good will round. Will there be more to come? My thoughts:
> 
> Buyback? Improbable, because:
> 
> ...


Excellent points. I'm with you, waiting it out on my 2016 Touareg Tdi... It's a 3 year lease so I'm insulated a bit, but if the "fix" results in performance lower than advertised when I made the transaction, then I have an issue with VW. If that's the case, and the fix is mandatory, let me walk free of the lease VW.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

You'reDrunk said:


> do you have ANY proof of this "diminished value" of which you speak???? anything empirical?


I think the Reuters article stated that wholesale prices of the TDI's dropped about $4000 after the scandal - from an average of $15k to around $11k... but that's all I've seen so far...


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

VW Canada has also confirmed that the agreement in the US with the EPA applies to Canadian cars too, as they are certified to the same EPA standards. So add another 100,000 or so to the list of buy backs.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

*A couple of things went undiscussed yeaterday...*

1. The lawyers now know what their payout is going to be. It will be hard to get them to work anything else for the class action part of suit.

Yesterday several of the lead lawyers talked about how this was the best deal any owner could expect (while not divulging the contents). So brace yourselves. The lawyers have already completed the heavy lifting, and their payout is known (for the most part). Based on the leaks (and the additional 1 billion dollars allocated for the owners) the payout in addition to fixes is going to be a lot less than we all expect. The 3.0 owners are going to be screwed, because any additional payout is not going to be worth the lawyer's time to haggle over. 

2. At the corporate meeting in Germany VW (Herr Mueller) announced that the Jones Day results would not be made know until the fourth quarter, and until after the negotiations with the Justice Department were completed. 

This means that the folks responsible will not be held to account in the US. VW is utilizing German law to shield their workers and corporation from prosecution abroad.


----------



## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

MXTHOR3 said:


> You have no idea what it's worth until you actually attempt to sell it. I can't imagine how dieselgate would affect the price on an 11 year old base model Passat with 100k miles on it.


 I have no intention of selling it. I'm merely going by KBB trade-in, which is what most dealers in my area use. 100K Base model that's 11 years old or not, I'm certain that if not for DG, it would trade for twice what KBB currently lists. VW as a whole, diesel or not, has been tarnished for the time being. I was just curious when I looked, anyway. I'm keeping the car until it rots.


----------



## MonsterM (Aug 10, 2005)

What a tremendous waste...Thousands of perfectly fine TDI vehicles sitting on the parking lot. Give me a break, this whole thing is a big fat joke in the greater scheme of things.


----------



## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

Mightion said:


> So, what are they going to do with however few 2016 TDIs that have been languishing at port? I notice nothing about the settlement gets the '16s cleared to sell. Too much longer and the new model year will be upon us...
> 
> Rebrand them as '17's?
> 
> ...


They won't be sold unless they're fixed. Otherwise, I'd guess with the NA alignment, they'll go to Mexico.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

MonsterM said:


> What a tremendous waste...Thousands of perfectly fine TDI vehicles sitting on the parking lot. Give me a break, this whole thing is a big fat joke in the greater scheme of things.


You are familiar with the expression "Give them an inch and they'll take a mile"? That's what's going on here. EPA/CARB needs to take this seriously or else it will end up that air and water quality standards get treated like speed limits, where _nobody_ but a small minority actually obey them consistently.

Further, this is a way to protect American businesses. If VW and other import brands are allowed to cheat while US companies are honest, it gives a competitive advantage to foreign nations, which is bad for Americans' health and bad for their paychecks too. It looks like everything will be fixed soon, as we'll have the details in 2 months now. With any luck, cars will be completing repairs/buybacks before we're even 1 year from the original announcement. I'll accept that as a win for the public good all around and by 2017 VW will have this all behind them.


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

kickercoach said:


> 1. The lawyers now know what their payout is going to be. It will be hard to get them to work anything else for the class action part of suit.
> 
> Yesterday several of the lead lawyers talked about how this was the best deal any owner could expect (while not divulging the contents). So brace yourselves. The lawyers have already completed the heavy lifting, and their payout is known (for the most part). Based on the leaks (and the additional 1 billion dollars allocated for the owners) the payout in addition to fixes is going to be a lot less than we all expect. The 3.0 owners are going to be screwed, because any additional payout is not going to be worth the lawyer's time to haggle over.
> 
> ...


Wow.


----------



## MonsterM (Aug 10, 2005)

AZGolf said:


> You are familiar with the expression "Give them an inch and they'll take a mile"? That's what's going on here. EPA/CARB needs to take this seriously or else it will end up that air and water quality standards get treated like speed limits, where _nobody_ but a small minority actually obey them consistently.
> 
> Further, this is a way to protect American businesses. If VW and other import brands are allowed to cheat while US companies are honest, it gives a competitive advantage to foreign nations, which is bad for Americans' health and bad for their paychecks too. It looks like everything will be fixed soon, as we'll have the details in 2 months now. With any luck, cars will be completing repairs/buybacks before we're even 1 year from the original announcement. I'll accept that as a win for the public good all around and by 2017 VW will have this all behind them.


I am willing to bet that the pollution caused by this emission software "cheat" will have close to or zero effect on air/water quality standards in the long run considering how much pollution is generated by other cars here in US like pick up trucks (top selling vehicles) or thousands of diesel tractor trailers. At least lets be honest and admit that there are other motives here at play than the concern of the actual pollution this software "cheat" generated. I will leave it at that.


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

DerSpiegel said:


> There's probably going to be a run on current VW inventory when that happens as well. Some folks will want to go from TDI Jetta to GTI for example....


:wave:


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

kickercoach said:


> The 3.0 owners are going to be screwed, because any additional payout is not going to be worth the lawyer's time to haggle over. .


I'm not sure I agree with that. If the outcome is that I get to leave my 3.0 alone and drive it as-is for as long as I want, without any mandatory software "fix", but I don't get any money, I don't feel screwed. I have the same fantastic vehicle I bought plus $1000 withou any imposed "fixes." 

If, on the other hand, if any of the scenarios I posted above occur - in which, for example, I am forced to accept a hardware or software change that I do not want regardless of how much they propose to compensate me for it - then we have a problem. Can't know 'til June's or July's deadline for sure.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

Bird67 said:


> I'm not sure I agree with that. If the outcome is that I get to leave my 3.0 alone and drive it as-is for as long as I want, without any mandatory software "fix", but I don't get any money, I don't feel screwed. I have the same fantastic vehicle I bought plus $1000 withou any imposed "fixes."
> 
> If, on the other hand, if any of the scenarios I posted above occur - in which, for example, I am forced to accept a hardware or software change that I do not want regardless of how much they propose to compensate me for it - then we have a problem. Can't know 'til June's or July's deadline for sure.


Easy solution: roll coal


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> You are familiar with the expression "Give them an inch and they'll take a mile"? That's what's going on here. EPA/CARB needs to take this seriously or else it will end up that air and water quality standards get treated like speed limits, where _nobody_ but a small minority actually obey them consistently.



:laugh: OK, so, the big rig diesel engine manufacturers cheat and the EPA fines them. Hyundai cheats, and they fine them. In the interim the EPA continues to let the world at large police itself. VW cheats and a buy back is forced to show the world that the EPA are* finally* taking things seriously? :laugh:

Wheres that gif of Jennifer Lawrence :laugh:


----------



## MagnetoReluctance (Aug 14, 2003)

Silly_me said:


> :laugh: OK, so, the big rig diesel engine manufacturers cheat and the EPA fines them. Hyundai cheats, and they fine them. In the interim the EPA continues to let the world at large police itself. VW cheats and a buy back is forced to show the world that the EPA are* finally* taking things seriously? :laugh:
> 
> Wheres that gif of Jennifer Lawrence :laugh:



Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but how do we know they are being FORCED to buy them back? That was likely what they put on the table as an alternative to even HIGHER fines, and federal officials accepted it as a fair settlement. 

There are probably other forces at play here too - If they had a true fix that didn't adversely affect performance, there would be no way in hell they would be buying cars back. But since that isn't the case, a buyback is the cleanest solution.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

rbloedow said:


> Forgive me for not reading the entire thread, but how do we know they are being FORCED to buy them back?


We really don't, I think most of this is speculative at best. There probably will be _some sort of_ buyback, but I'd be surprised if it was applicable past a certain dollar limit.



rbloedow said:


> That was likely what they put on the table as an alternative to even HIGHER fines, and federal officials accepted it as a fair settlement.


Because up until now the highest fine EVER for violation of the clean air act was $100m, plus $200m for GHG credits. I find it difficult to logically assume the fines have suddenly been calculated 100 fold in order to keep automakers from 'taking a mile'.

Besides, a fine helps the EPA, and one would assume the environment, a buyback helps no one monetarily (sans angy TDI owners that invested in their cars) and is purely a headline/political win.

That said, I'd like to see the final 'verdict' on all this.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> :laugh: OK, so, the big rig diesel engine manufacturers cheat and the EPA fines them. Hyundai cheats, and they fine them. *In the interim the EPA continues to let the world at large police itself.*


Incorrect. The EPA's oversight on the automotive industry and their financial resources have been constrained by Congress. Therefore, the EPA doesn't have the resources to test emissions and fuel economy on every single new model. In order to satisfy their Congressional mandate to control pollution with their limited resources, the EPA developed a strategy to allow automakers to "self certify". Some took advantage of that trust and cheated.

If you don't like the current scheme, please write your local congressman (or woman) and ask them to increase the EPA's funding.




Silly_me said:


> VW cheats and a buy back is forced to show the world that the EPA are* finally* taking things seriously? :laugh:
> 
> Wheres that gif of Jennifer Lawrence :laugh:


We don't know the full details yet, but there's more to the story than the EPA "forcing" VW to buy back cars. Likely, there are some technological issues at play. I suspect that whatever fix VW has to the vehicle will impact fuel economy, performance, cost-of-ownership, or all of the above. This likely meant that VW's only viable option was to offer customers a buy back. Why else do you think it took VW so long to offer a fix?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

BUJonathan said:


> Incorrect.


What bit was incorrect?



BUJonathan said:


> Some took advantage of that trust and cheated.


Some :laugh:



BUJonathan said:


> Why else do you think it took VW so long to offer a fix?


Why are they being asked to fix the problem in the first place? No other company has ever been asked to do the same, it is a waste of resources. It would better suit the cash strapped EPA to levy a heftier fine and GHG credits against VW and leave the TDIs on the road.


----------



## MagnetoReluctance (Aug 14, 2003)

Silly_me said:


> We really don't, I think most of this is speculative at best. There probably will be _some sort of_ buyback, but I'd be surprised if it was applicable past a certain dollar limit.


So you just pulled the idea of them being forced to right out of your ass?



Silly_me said:


> Besides, *a fine helps the EPA*, and one would assume the environment, a buyback helps no one monetarily (sans angy TDI owners that invested in their cars) and is purely a headline/political win.
> 
> That said, I'd like to see the final 'verdict' on all this.


The fine DOESN'T help the EPA in any monetary way. Fines collected by agencies get deposited into the U.S. Treasury's general fund, so it's not like the EPA suddenly gets more spending money to devote to pet projects or buy fancier desks. Congress sets their budgets, not the agency itself. I don't think you understand how the government works......


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

rbloedow said:


> So you just pulled the idea of them being forced to right out of your ass?


_pfffft pffffft_ meoraw! :laugh: EVERY media report is touting buybacks was final solution. You need not read every page of this thread to figure that one out. I don't think we have the whole picture yet, thus: *SPECULATIVE* :facepalm: Unless you wish to blindly accept everything the media dishes out to you, I see now that I misjudged you.





rbloedow said:


> The fine DOESN'T help the EPA in any monetary way. Fines collected by agencies get deposited into the U.S. Treasury's general fund, so it's not like the EPA suddenly gets more spending money to devote to pet projects or buy fancier desks. Congress sets their budgets, not the agency itself. I don't think you understand how the government works......


I was unaware that a buyback aided the government. Otherwise:



BUJonathan said:


> If you don't like the current scheme, please write your local congressman (or woman) and ask them to increase the EPA's funding.


----------



## Chaoscreature80 (Jan 19, 2013)

> please write your local congressman (or woman) and ask them to increase the EPA's funding.


Please don't do this! Ask them to increase their common sense maybe...


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

rbloedow said:


> So you just pulled the idea of them being forced to right out of your ass?
> 
> 
> 
> The fine DOESN'T help the EPA in any monetary way. Fines collected by agencies get deposited into the U.S. Treasury's general fund, so it's not like the EPA suddenly gets more spending money to devote to pet projects or buy fancier desks. Congress sets their budgets, not the agency itself. I don't think you understand how the government works......


BINGO....

Exactly, a ~fine~ does not net the EPA any funds. But.......

Why do think one of the bullets in the settlement is for VW to set up a fund for remediation? This is the EPA cash kitty for doing what ever they want to promote clean transportation, and other green initiatives what ever that means. This is how they get past congressional control.

A fine, would be the correct way for the EPA to administer the rules. But, "never let a good crisis go to waste". The EPA is making an example out of VW and is coming up with as many sideways solutions as they can. Who knows when a bigger cash cow will ever come around again. 

The EPA is evil, never forget this.


----------



## jddaigle (May 30, 2003)

kickercoach said:


> The EPA is evil, never forget this.


I KNOW! I HATE breathing clean air and drinking uncontaminated water! This guy gets it! 

:laugh::facepalm::laugh::facepalm::laugh::facepalm::laugh::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

:beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:


:facepalm:


----------



## danyanda (Sep 21, 2007)

Yeah just ask the people who live along the Colorado River about how much the EPA has helped us all out.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> What bit was incorrect?


You said:


> In the interim the EPA continues to let the world at large police itself.


That's an exaggeration of the truth which makes it incorrect. The truth is that the EPA is resource constrained. We can debate the reasons why, but this isn't the Politics Lounge. They're not _letting_ automakers police themselves... they don't have a choice given the funding they have. If the EPA actually certified each vehicle themselves, it would add years to automotive development schedules. Should they step up selective enforcement audits? Certainly. But self-certification was created as a compromise between the EPA's mandate to control emissions and the available funding they have.

For the record, it was selective enforcement audits that busted Hyundai-Kia.




Silly_me said:


> Some :laugh:


Believe it or not, there are actually some automakers that care about the environment and their reputation because they see that as their brand value to customers. Some take regulations (not just emissions) quite seriously. Is any company perfect? Certainly not. You have thousands of parts inside a vehicle designed by teams of engineers at OEMs and suppliers. Mistakes happen, sometimes intentionally, sometimes unintentionally. Sometimes at a corporate-level and sometimes by a few people.

You do realize that some companies _voluntarily_ self-disclose emissions violations? There's actually an official electronic process for this.




Silly_me said:


> Why are they being asked to fix the problem in the first place? No other company has ever been asked to do the same, it is a waste of resources. It would better suit the cash strapped EPA to levy a heftier fine and GHG credits against VW and leave the TDIs on the road.


VW is being asked to fix the problem because they broke the law. It doesn't matter if TDI's only represent a small portion of vehicles on the road. The law applies to all automakers, regardless of size. If the EPA gave a pass to VW, then they have to give a pass to all automakers. The scope of the violation is taken into consideration when fines are assessed.




Silly_me said:


> No other company has ever been asked to do the same, it is a waste of resources.


Other automakers have been forced to hold emissions-related recalls (example).


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

BUJonathan said:


> The truth is that the EPA is resource constrained.


That is not an excuse. If a company utilizes the same excuse to the EPA for violations what would the end game be?




BUJonathan said:


> Believe it or not, there are actually some automakers that care about the environment and their reputation because they see that as their brand value to customers.


I understand that's how Tesla makes most of its money.......




BUJonathan said:


> The law applies to all automakers, regardless of size.





BUJonathan said:


> Other automakers have been forced to hold emissions-related recalls


1) There have been two hundred million+ vehicles before VW that deciptively violated the clean air act.
2) a recall =! a buyback


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> That is not an excuse. If a company utilizes the same excuse to the EPA for violations what would the end game be?


First, Government enforcing regulations is not the same as companies working within a legislative landscape. Second, companies can and do have to make compromises based on resource constraints every day. VW could have made the choice not to develop and sell diesel cars in the US if they thought the regulations were too costly to meet. That would've cost far less money then this mess.





Silly_me said:


> 1) There have been two hundred million+ vehicles before VW that deciptively violated the clean air act.
> 2) a recall =! a buyback


1) ?????????
2) I never said it was. You stated, "_Why are they being asked to fix the problem in the first place? No other company has ever been asked to do the same..."_ That's false, many other automakers have been "forced to fix their problem", such as Chrysler's emissions recall. Once a violation is found, it's up to the automaker to negotiate with the EPA how to remedy the violation.

The difference between dieselgate and the Chrysler example is Chrysler had a means of compliance to remedy the violation. Chrysler remedied violation with a simple software update because the fundamental design of their emissions controls could meet the requirements. In VW's case, don't you think if it was as simple as a software fix, they would've proposed that long ago? In fact they did propose a software update long ago... and they _still_ couldn't meet emissions.

VW painted themselves into a corner. The issue is the core design of the vehicle and its emissions controls fundamentally can't meet the requirements without some other negative impact to the vehicle (e.g. fuel economy, performance, or cost-of-ownership). That's the difference between VW doing a (partial) buyback and Chrysler doing a recall. I'm sure we'll find out more details in the coming months as VW outlines what the partial recall actually entails and more documents become public.

If the EPA forced VW to only do a recall and software update, and that recall negatively affected the vehicle, you'd be the same person $%^$#'ing that the EPA is stupid for forcing VW to neuter everyone's vehicle. Personally, I think a partial buyback/partial recall is a fair compromise for consumers. If you don't want to risk your vehicle driving differentially, give it back to VW and move on to something else. If you love your car and want to keep it, then let the dealer do the recall.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

jddaigle said:


> I KNOW! I HATE breathing clean air and drinking uncontaminated water! This guy gets it!
> 
> :laugh::facepalm::laugh::facepalm::laugh::facepalm::laugh::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
> 
> ...



Hmmmmmmmm....hyperbole reigns. 

Controls were put on many forms of pollution, well before the EPA was ever created. Also, have you ever heard of the department of health? They were here well before the EPA as well. A low information voter for sure.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

Well, I'll wait for the final details, but if I can truly drive mine for two more years, then sell it back to VW for September 2015 value AND get $5,000 hush money, I don't see how I can pass that up. Like jumping into a pile-o-**** and coming out smelling like a rose. :laugh:


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

(Semi-serious question) 

So if they base the values on Sept. '15 pre-scandal value, does that mean everyone has carte blanche to treat their car however they want in the meantime?


----------



## MagnetoReluctance (Aug 14, 2003)

danyanda said:


> Yeah just ask the people who live along the Colorado River about how much the EPA has helped us all out.



This is such a bullsh!t argument. The whole reason the EPA had to cleanup the mine was because private industry left the mess in the first place. 

Is the EPA perfect? No. But what they are trying to accomplish is sure a hell of a lot better than doing nothing at all. There are currently over 230 abandoned mines in Colorado that are actively leaking heavy metals into Colorado rivers. As terrible as the Gold King accident was, remainder of the mines combine release the same amount of toxic chemicals into the environment *EVERY TWO DAYS*. :facepalm: 

http://www.denverpost.com/environment/ci_28647978/colorado-faces-230-mines-leaking-heavy-metals-into


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

I still think that VW saying one of the options is "take compensation, drive your car as is and if we come up with a fix you can get it done at a later date" is code for saying we don't have a way to fix them and will push it on the back burner until you forget about it - thats also an odd proposition to come up with by June, you have the option of VW buying back your car + discounting a new VW or just cutting you a check, vs. keeping your car with unknown compensation and basically agreeing that an unknown fix you will be 100% agreeing to perform at a later date (if you are in a CARB state) - its like agreeing to one side of a contract, or someone saying I'll give you some money but when I call you for a favor you better do it for me.

Even in Europe their "fix" hasn't rolled out to success, the software update on the 2.0's there is failing from what I read (Passats get decreased performance, and the mesh in the intake on the 1.6L) - so lets be honest with ourselves, VW is trying to weed out the people who like and want to drive their cars, vs. the people who are so wronged and bought it because they thought they were one-upping a Prius - the former is the cheaper option i.e. say even with the 5k compensation figure thats floating around.

Unless its some super awesome buyback plus a big enough discount that I can turn into a brand new equal or better VW, considering we purchased a leftover 0 mile '14 JSW SEL in June for 27k OTD and had equity in our trade, we would probably just keep it and drive it - like I said I think the "fix" will go on the back burner and they figure once the owners who want to keep their cars are compensated, it will fade away. 

Just my .02 and thoughts -


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

Ricky Bobby said:


> I still think that VW saying one of the options is "take compensation, drive your car as is and if we come up with a fix you can get it done at a later date" is code for saying we don't have a way to fix them and will push it on the back burner until you forget about it - thats also an odd proposition to come up with by June, you have the option of VW buying back your car + discounting a new VW or just cutting you a check, vs. keeping your car with unknown compensation and basically agreeing that an unknown fix you will be 100% agreeing to perform at a later date (if you are in a CARB state) - its like agreeing to one side of a contract, or someone saying I'll give you some money but when I call you for a favor you better do it for me.
> 
> Even in Europe their "fix" hasn't rolled out to success, the software update on the 2.0's there is failing from what I read (Passats get decreased performance, and the mesh in the intake on the 1.6L) - so lets be honest with ourselves, VW is trying to weed out the people who like and want to drive their cars, vs. the people who are so wronged and bought it because they thought they were one-upping a Prius - the former is the cheaper option i.e. say even with the 5k compensation figure thats floating around.
> 
> ...


My guess is the EPA won't let VW forget about the non-scrapped vehicles. But there's probably some sort of compromise (e.g. partial compliance, reduced fuel economy, reduced drivability, frequent urea tank refills, or reduced dpf life) and that's why the buy back is being offered.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

rbloedow said:


> This is such a bullsh!t argument. The whole reason the EPA had to cleanup the mine was because private industry left the mess in the first place.
> 
> Is the EPA perfect? No. But what they are trying to accomplish is sure a hell of a lot better than doing nothing at all. There are currently over 230 abandoned mines in Colorado that are actively leaking heavy metals into Colorado rivers. As terrible as the Gold King accident was, remainder of the mines combine release the same amount of toxic chemicals into the environment *EVERY TWO DAYS*. :facepalm:
> 
> http://www.denverpost.com/environment/ci_28647978/colorado-faces-230-mines-leaking-heavy-metals-into


:thumbup:

There are many companies that did stupid things in order to get our society as wealthy as we are. A century of stupid things when the attitude was more about making good money and living and growing g the society... for the better. All the while ignoring or not bothering to appreciate the long term effects. 

There's a lot of blame to go around IMHO, but the bigger issue is just doing something about it. Pointing fingers gets silly after a while when you consider the decisions were made a hundred years ago.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Skizzle1111 said:


> (Semi-serious question)
> 
> So if they base the values on Sept. '15 pre-scandal value, does that mean everyone has carte blanche to treat their car however they want in the meantime?


While Toyota supposedly declared every truck to be in "Excellent" condition, you look at KBB.com and it has 4 different conditions. If you trash your car, they might drop it down to average or poor condition for valuation purposes. I would not play games with them, as VW clearly is willing to drag this out regardless of how painful it is for the owners. I don't doubt they would be happy to make it even more painful for somebody who tried to pass off a dented up and abused car as being in good condition.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Skizzle1111 said:


> (Semi-serious question)
> 
> So if they base the values on Sept. '15 pre-scandal value, does that mean everyone has carte blanche to treat their car however they want in the meantime?


Without knowing the final outcome of the agreement and having official program rules in hand I would move on with life as thought nothing has changed with regards to the ownership of your vehicle. I don't believe anything is official.


----------



## Harold (Jul 31, 2000)

I talked to a neighbor who is an Audi tech ( works directly for Audi and visits dealerships ), he said the "final" fix is really up in the air and to not put too much stock in the media reports. According to him most likely there will be a buyback on the older TDI (like the ones without Adblue) as a fix will likely be too expensive and the really ticked off customers. For the others there will some sort of fix.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Dealers in Canada have no idea what's going on... I had to inform one of them yesterday about the news... 

Sent from my XT1563 using Tapatalk


----------



## Elite_Deforce (Nov 18, 2012)

E CODE said:


> Dealers in Canada have no idea what's going on... I had to inform one of them yesterday about the news...
> 
> Sent from my XT1563 using Tapatalk


Surprise.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

BUJonathan said:


> First, Government enforcing regulations is not the same as companies working within a legislative landscape. Second, companies can and do have to make compromises based on resource constraints every day. VW could have made the choice not to develop and sell diesel cars in the US if they thought the regulations were too costly to meet. That would've cost far less money then this mess.


I'm not talking about companies working within their resources, I'm talking about teh inability of the EPA to enforce their charge. If we expect everyone to play by the rules as though this were some utopia, we would have no need for regulators, yet for some strange reason the government has plenty of them 




BUJonathan said:


> 1) ?????????


Late night fuzzy maths, I meant 2 million :facepalm: :laugh:



BUJonathan said:


> 2) I never said it was. You stated, "_Why are they being asked to fix the problem in the first place? No other company has ever been asked to do the same..."_ That's false, many other automakers have been "forced to fix their problem", such as Chrysler's emissions recall. Once a violation is found, it's up to the automaker to negotiate with the EPA how to remedy the violation.


That way the buyback is voluntary 



BUJonathan said:


> The difference between dieselgate and the Chrysler example is Chrysler had a means of compliance to remedy the violation. Chrysler remedied violation with a simple software update because the fundamental design of their emissions controls could meet the requirements. In VW's case, don't you think if it was as simple as a software fix, they would've proposed that long ago? In fact they did propose a software update long ago... and they _still_ couldn't meet emissions.
> 
> VW painted themselves into a corner. The issue is the core design of the vehicle and its emissions controls fundamentally can't meet the requirements without some other negative impact to the vehicle (e.g. fuel economy, performance, or cost-of-ownership). That's the difference between VW doing a (partial) buyback and Chrysler doing a recall. I'm sure we'll find out more details in the coming months as VW outlines what the partial recall actually entails and more documents become public.
> 
> If the EPA forced VW to only do a recall and software update, and that recall negatively affected the vehicle, you'd be the same person $%^$#'ing that the EPA is stupid for forcing VW to neuter everyone's vehicle. Personally, I think a partial buyback/partial recall is a fair compromise for consumers. If you don't want to risk your vehicle driving differentially, give it back to VW and move on to something else. If you love your car and want to keep it, then let the dealer do the recall.


Yeah, but if the vehicle can not be fixed to perform as promised the precedent for clean air act infringement is not a buy back but a fine, GHG credits, and consumer compensation. A buy back is a waste of resources (I'd call it a P.R. move but nobody really cares about the issue at this point, instead it may be because of the Johnny-on-the-spot class action lawsuit demand. I mean seriously, that had to have been the quickest blood in the water attack I've seen :laugh.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

MonsterM said:


> What a tremendous waste...Thousands of perfectly fine TDI vehicles sitting on the parking lot. Give me a break, this whole thing is a big fat joke in the greater scheme of things.


Except those TDIs are not "perfectly fine". They pollute like a m*****f****r.

See the preceding 300 pages in this thread.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

kickercoach said:


> The EPA is evil, never forget this.


This quality of thinking isn't worth rebutting, it's _prima facie_ witless.

Americans appreciate the EPA, support its mission, and cheer when it succeeds for us.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

rbloedow said:


> This is such a bullsh!t argument. The whole reason the EPA had to cleanup the mine was because private industry left the mess in the first place.
> 
> Is the EPA perfect? No. But what they are trying to accomplish is sure a hell of a lot better than doing nothing at all. There are currently over 230 abandoned mines in Colorado that are actively leaking heavy metals into Colorado rivers. As terrible as the Gold King accident was, remainder of the mines combine release the same amount of toxic chemicals into the environment *EVERY TWO DAYS*. :facepalm:
> 
> http://www.denverpost.com/environment/ci_28647978/colorado-faces-230-mines-leaking-heavy-metals-into


Very well stated. Extra credit for being incredibly civil, I hope to learn from your example.


----------



## danyanda (Sep 21, 2007)

rbloedow said:


> This is such a bullsh!t argument. The whole reason the EPA had to cleanup the mine was because private industry left the mess in the first place.
> 
> Is the EPA perfect? No. But what they are trying to accomplish is sure a hell of a lot better than doing nothing at all. There are currently over 230 abandoned mines in Colorado that are actively leaking heavy metals into Colorado rivers. As terrible as the Gold King accident was, remainder of the mines combine release the same amount of toxic chemicals into the environment *EVERY TWO DAYS*. :facepalm:
> 
> http://www.denverpost.com/environment/ci_28647978/colorado-faces-230-mines-leaking-heavy-metals-into


IIRC that mine wasn't leaking any chemicals into the river. They were contained until the Cowboys showed up to help. I don't have a problem with being a good steward of the environment. I don't even have a problem with government environmental regulations on some level because it is very possible for a person or company to do things on their own property which could adversely affect many other people in the future. 

What I do have a problem with is a bloated, inefficient, politically motivated, and politically swayed federal department constantly over reaching its already unconstitutional authority. And while it may seem like helping the environment = a good thing I have zero faith that the true objective of the epa is to help the environment. Their objective is to consolidate power to the federal government, just like the vast majority of government departments. That, regardless of what noble cause they claim to represent, makes them evil.


----------



## KGilman (Feb 3, 2004)

Chilcoot said:


> Except those TDIs are not "perfectly fine". They pollute like a m*****f****r.
> 
> See the preceding 300 pages in this thread.


So does every single other automobile out there in one way, shape, or form. I wonder when I see people losing their minds about this if they are indeed that concerned about it, or just enjoy stirring the pot. If you believe so strongly in controlling climate change why wouldn't you start with the global livestock and agriculture businesses who account for triple the greenhouse gas emissions than every single automobile on the road? Does anyone think that all of the batteries in EV's are bio-degradable and environmentally friendly, do you really care enough to make a personal change about it all or will you just refrain from buying VW's? It's ridiculous.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> Yeah, but if the vehicle can not be fixed to perform as promised the precedent for clean air act infringement is not a buy back but a fine, GHG credits, and consumer compensation. A buy back is a waste of resources (I'd call it a P.R. move but nobody really cares about the issue at this point, instead it may be because of the Johnny-on-the-spot class action lawsuit demand. I mean seriously, that had to have been the quickest blood in the water attack I've seen :laugh.


The Hyundai-Kia Clean Air Act violation and the VW Dieselgate are different situations. In Hyundai-Kia's case, the vehicles technically met their emissions requirements. However, they overstated the label fuel economy by manipulating the coast down coefficients. Coast down coefficients are used to set the dyno loads during EPA fuel economy testing. The reason it was a Clean Air Act violation is because EPA fuel economy tests actually measure CO2 emissions during the test, not fuel consumption. Hyundai-Kia paid a fine because they falsely gained CAFE credits and compensated customers because real world fuel economy was less then advertised. They needed to make customers "whole". The vehicles were otherwise compliant. This is historically how overstated gas mileage claims are settled.

VW Dieselgate is different. The vehicles exceed the allowable NOx emissions for Tier 2, Bin 5 standards. VW now needs to bring those vehicles into emissions compliance. They can either develop a fix that reduces the NOx levels or buy back those vehicles to remove them from the road -- their choice so long as the EPA approves. This is historically how emissions violations claims are settled. Full details haven't been released yet, so no one knows for certain. But likely due to technical reasons, VW is unable to bring the vehicles into full compliance. Or, bringing them into emissions compliance has some negative effect such as reduced fuel economy, reduced performance, or reduced DPF life. So, they (VW, not the EPA) proposed a partial buy back, partial recall and the EPA agreed.

You're entitled to your opinion about the buy back. And yeah, I agree the lawyers jumped on this pretty hard. However, the precedence for violating emissions requirements is not just a fine... it's remediation (and a fine).


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

Shomegrown (I know you're watching this thread, yet scared to post:laugh

Saintor must be laughing somewhere.....:bs:

Time to invest in a Tesla Model S/3/X.


----------



## auR32 (Jul 21, 2004)

KGilman said:


> So does every single other automobile out there in one way, shape, or form. I wonder when I see people losing their minds about this if they are indeed that concerned about it, or just enjoy stirring the pot. If you believe so strongly in controlling climate change why wouldn't you start with the global livestock and agriculture businesses who account for triple the greenhouse gas emissions than every single automobile on the road? Does anyone think that all of the batteries in EV's are bio-degradable and environmentally friendly, do you really care enough to make a personal change about it all or will you just refrain from buying VW's? It's ridiculous.


It's true that every other auto pollutes in some way. BUT, the difference is that the VW told us their diesel VW's were low polluters. Now, for some time we know they are not. They simply wouldn't have been allowed on the US market with the emissions they spew. They have a bigger polluting effect than any other vehicle that adheres to the basic principles of following the rules as closely as they can instead of cheating.

Batteries in EV's are not biodegradeable, but they are recyclable. They can be reclaimed for their raw materials or repurposed as is for other uses. I think Nissan was taking about making home storage systems from their 'expired' batteries. Not enough expired batteries out there yet, but they are coming...


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

BUJonathan said:


> . Personally, I think a partial buyback/partial recall is a fair compromise for consumers. If you don't want to risk your vehicle driving differentially, give it back to VW and move on to something else. If you love your car and want to keep it, then let the dealer do the recall.


Okay, but what about the 3.0 vehicles? I see no likelihood of a 3.0 buyback. That leaves only recall and fix. I may not want that fix. Then what?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Bird67 said:


> Okay, but what about the 3.0 vehicles? I see no likelihood of a 3.0 buyback. That leaves only recall and fix. I may not want that fix. Then what?


It's obvious from reading articles and forum posts that the main reason anybody buys a TDI is for reasons unrelated the smog. They cite torque, MPG, lower cost of diesel than premium gas, and just about anything _except_ smog. I'm sure EPA & CARB know this, and know that given a choice, no TDI owner will ever let their car be modified to produce less smog voluntarily. It is likely the 3.0 TDIs will have to follow a similar path as the 2.0 in that VW will offer to pay you in order to get the recall done, once one is developed and accepted for the 3.0. TDI owners love creating smog more than any other vehicle owner, as evidenced by how they all love to roll coal. The only way any of them will give that up is if VW pays them to. Even at that, you only have to look back 1-2 pages in this thread to see TDI owners asking how to save their current ECU settings so they can do the recall then overwrite the recall ECU with their coal-rolling ECU code instead. TDI owners love making smog, which is ultimately what will cause a push to eliminate the legality of using diesel engines in light duty vehicles.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> It's obvious from reading articles and forum posts that the main reason anybody buys a TDI is for reasons unrelated the smog. They cite torque, MPG, lower cost of diesel than premium gas, and just about anything _except_ smog. I'm sure EPA & CARB know this, and know that given a choice, no TDI owner will ever let their car be modified to produce less smog voluntarily. It is likely the 3.0 TDIs will have to follow a similar path as the 2.0 in that VW will offer to pay you in order to get the recall done, once one is developed and accepted for the 3.0. TDI owners love creating smog more than any other vehicle owner, as evidenced by how they all love to roll coal. The only way any of them will give that up is if VW pays them to. Even at that, you only have to look back 1-2 pages in this thread to see TDI owners asking how to save their current ECU settings so they can do the recall then overwrite the recall ECU with their coal-rolling ECU code instead. TDI owners love making smog, which is ultimately what will cause a push to eliminate the legality of using diesel engines in light duty vehicles.


:laugh: heck yeah.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

BUJonathan said:


> The Hyundai-Kia Clean Air Act violation and the VW Dieselgate are different situations.


Which one violated the clean air act?



BUJonathan said:


> In Hyundai-Kia's case, the vehicles technically met their emissions requirements.





BUJonathan said:


> The reason it was a Clean Air Act violation is because EPA fuel economy tests actually measure CO2 emissions during the test, not fuel consumption.


So, they weren't meeting the emissions requirement?



BUJonathan said:


> VW Dieselgate is different. The vehicles exceed the allowable NOx emissions for Tier 2, Bin 5 standards. VW now needs to bring those vehicles into emissions compliance.


What about those seven diesel truck engine manufacturers doing this nearly two decades ago? I don't recall a buyback or a fix...... just a fine and an investment to 'finance anti-pollution projects' :laugh:


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

AZGolf said:


> TDI owners love creating smog more than any other vehicle owner, as evidenced by how they all love to roll coal.... TDI owners love making smog, which is ultimately what will cause a push to eliminate the legality of using diesel engines in light duty vehicles.


I can't tell whether you're being funny or serious. If funny, I didn't get it. If serious...seriously? We all love to roll coal and love to make smog? Maybe you were being funny and I missed it, because the other options are you're being a deliberately provacative troll or you're just a d-bag. I'm betting it was a joke, though, and I just didn't get it so it's on me.

Much of your post was right on. Torque and mpg were my priorities, followed closely linked by retained resale value as compared to the gasoline variants. I did not buy it because it was "green." It was for sale, so I presumed it was as clean as the regulations required it to be. That was good enough for me. I'm not pissed off about the pollution per se, as I think it creates far less pollution than the freighter that brought it here from Germany. I'm pissed off because I might not get to keep my vehicle and/or keep my vehicle running the way it is now if I'm obligated to "fix" it.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> So, they weren't meeting the emissions requirement?


You're selectively quoting to try and prove your point, but it doesn't change the laws currently in place today. The federal government doesn't regulate CO2 emissions for light duty vehicles on a per _vehicle_ basis like they do for NOx. CO2 is regulated _indirectly_ on a _manufacturer_ basis by fleet fuel economy. This is called Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE). In Hyundai-Kia's case, they overstated fuel economy for individual vehicles and were busted by the EPA during selective audits. A manufacturer can sell a car with piss poor fuel economy, they can even overstate that fuel economy and get busted, and still meet their CAFE requirements.

This is how a company like Ford can sell the Fiesta and Shelby GT500 and both vehicles meet emissions requirements (note: I'm not implying Ford overstate fuel economy on either vehicle, just pointing out they have vastly differences in fuel economy and performance).

So no, Hyundai-Kia technically did not violate a vehicle emissions certification requirement, they violated the rules on how fuel economy is measured and reported to the customer. Those rules happen to be how the US _indirectly_ controls CO2 emissions. The keyword is "_indirectly_".





> What about those seven diesel truck engine manufacturers doing this nearly two decades ago? I don't recall a buyback or a fix...... just a fine and an investment to 'finance anti-pollution projects' :laugh:


I only know the process for passengers cars and light trucks. I don't know how emissions and fuel economy are regulated for heavy-duty trucks, so I can't answer your question.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

Bird67 said:


> Okay, but what about the 3.0 vehicles? I see no likelihood of a 3.0 buyback. That leaves only recall and fix. I may not want that fix. Then what?


I think it depends on whether the 3.0L TDI's can be remedied. If they can be fixed with software and hardware with no or minimal impact to fuel economy, power, or cost-of-ownership, then it seems unlikely that VW will buy back the 3.0L SUVs.

See below. With the 2.0L engines, it appears that at least some of them cannot be brought into full compliance. Or, if they're brought into compliance it comes with some significant downside to the customer, such as reduced fuel economy, reduced power, or increased cost of ownership (e.g. replacing the DPF at an accelerated rate).



LA Times said:


> California Air Resources Board enforcement chief Todd Sax said last month he doesn't think it's technically feasible to repair any of VW's 2-liter diesel engines, under the hoods of most of the models at issue, to meet that state's stringent clean air rules.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

Having been on the other side..from when I sold cars....How are they going to help/protect the dealers? IF, and I know this is an IF, the $5K happens and it is above what the value of the car is, I know I would just drive into the VW dealer, hand over keys and drive out. What incentive do I have to buy another VW? I am leaving with a check in my hand and no reaon to buy another VW. I do think VW HAS to do something for the dealers to protect their investment. If there is not a significant rebate or incentive, dealers are going to die. 

Other question, what about the cars that are sitting on other car lots, at Ford dealers, little mom & pop used car lots? Do these get bought back too? Fixed? What are their options?


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

Phil Pugliese said:


> Having been on the other side..from when I sold cars....How are they going to help/protect the dealers? IF, and I know this is an IF, the $5K happens and it is above what the value of the car is, I know I would just drive into the VW dealer, hand over keys and drive out. What incentive do I have to buy another VW? I am leaving with a check in my hand and no reaon to buy another VW. I do think VW HAS to do something for the dealers to protect their investment. If there is not a significant rebate or incentive, dealers are going to die.
> 
> Other question, what about the cars that are sitting on other car lots, at Ford dealers, little mom & pop used car lots? Do these get bought back too? Fixed? What are their options?


In Canada us TDI owners get a 2k purchase incentive above and beyond anything that is negotiated with the actual dealer. I took advantage of this in buying my new R. Got my negotiated discount on the car, and then got the extra 2K off for owning the TDI. I could have traded the TDI in and they would have counted the 2K on the TDI side which may have helped with taxes........ point is, it helped the dealer make the sale and I would suggest that the nature of certain programs will continue to help the dealers along a little bit. Not on every single car, some owners will be cranky and some just want something else- you're right about that, but VW has been doing something and I think they will continue to.

BTW the 2K here was not a sliding scale, coulda bought a new 15K jetta base and had the 2K off.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

Chilcoot said:


> This quality of thinking isn't worth rebutting, it's _prima facie_ witless.
> 
> Americans appreciate the EPA, support its mission, and cheer when it succeeds for us.


Actually, you did rebut, thanks. 


Tell me you cheered when it was determined they forgot about the folks in Flint? How about the Wyoming couple that made a pond? How about Colorado? Cheer Cheer!!

That was cheap hyperbole, sorry. 

But seriously spending millions on fighting VW over < 1% of the US car fleet that spews < .2% of NOx fleet pollution is unjustifiable. :screwy: If this was a business the CEO would have been fired long ago. A simple analysis would yield a revelation, in your case, that a total replacement of the vehicle fleet with modern _polluting_ diesels would yield an actual real world reduction in NOx pollution, and CO2. Temper that with the knowledge that with every successive model they were getting closer and closer to compliance.

Cheer Cheer the millions being spent effectively to go after <.2% of the NOx pollution!! Are you cheering now? :screwy::screwy::screwy:

Now justify the action on VW, taking into consideration the EPAs limited budget. Are you cheering their success? :banghead: Cheer and support them spending their limited resources on VW diesels? :banghead:

Witless me. I would like them to focus on the other 99% of big time NOx generating targets on the highway, really. I demand smart reductions in pollution. In simple terms, more bang for the buck. Some would consider the effort on VW a misuse of funds.


A cheap hyperbole aside.... Please justify Gina McCarthey (EPA) having decision making power over armed agents and SWAT teams. They spent, in the last few years_ millions _on arms, munitions, and associated SWAT gear etc... and related law enforcement equipment. 

Do you honestly think it is cost effective for the EPA to be armed like this? How about save a pile of cash for their actual mission. How call in trained law enforcement when they need the muscle/assistance. Shucks, that sounds like a witless suggestion. :banghead::banghead::banghead: I take it back.


It is evil to waste public money. When you extract money from the public, then waste it, it is thievery. Thievery is evil. :thumbdown:

Cheers


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Found the Alex Jones listener.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

BUJonathan said:


> So no, Hyundai-Kia technically did not violate a vehicle emissions certification requirement, they violated the rules on how fuel economy is measured and reported to the customer. Those rules happen to be how the US _indirectly_ controls CO2 emissions. The keyword is "_indirectly_".


It doesn't matter, they directly, consciously, willingly, violated the clean air act. I'm not arguing that what Hyundai did was less terrible than what VW did, I'm simply stating they both willingly cheated, and I've yet to meet a regulator who really cared how a law was violated, so long as it was :laugh:




BUJonathan said:


> I don't know how emissions and fuel economy are regulated for heavy-duty trucks, so I can't answer your question.


Knowing the emissions regulations is a moot point, they had defeat devices much like VW in order to 'legally' certify/sell their engines. Like Hyundai, they were fined and forced to buy polar bear bonds. Unlike VW they weren't forced to fix the engines or buy them back.


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

Silly_me said:


> Knowing the emissions regulations is a moot point, they had defeat devices much like VW in order to 'legally' certify/sell their engines. Like Hyundai, they were fined and forced to buy polar bear bonds. Unlike VW they weren't forced to fix the engines or buy them back.


The Hyundai engines / cars did and still do meet all Tier 2 Bin 5 emissions regulations. No reprogramming necessary. The window stickers were wrong, had to be restated, and owners were offered compensation. 

To this day, VW has not deployed a Tier 2 Bin 5 compliant tune for the TDIs (without the cheat). Therefore the fix or buyback situation.


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

Didn't a lot of people showed back then that the insides of the tailpipes were clean using a cloth or something?

If the cheat devices were running when the vehicle was moving, the tailpipes should turn black after some time.:screwy:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

someguy123 said:


> Didn't a lot of people showed back then that the insides of the tailpipes were clean using a cloth or something?
> 
> If the cheat devices were running when the vehicle was moving, the tailpipes should turn black after some time.:screwy:


NOx isn't the same as soot/carbon/particles.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

someguy123 said:


> Didn't a lot of people showed back then that the insides of the tailpipes were clean using a cloth or something?
> 
> If the cheat devices were running when the vehicle was moving, the tailpipes should turn black after some time.:screwy:


mine are quite dirty (3.0)


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

spockcat said:


> NOx isn't the same as soot/carbon/particles.


Exactly, in fact you get NOx at the opposite end as HC/soot.

Rich = high HC & soot, low NOx
Lean = low HC & soot, high NOx

It would make perfect sense for a high NOx engine to have low soot because it's running extra lean to begin with. That's actually how the combustion process works. So VW runs the diesel motors overly lean in order to report better real world fuel economy, gets visibly clean tailpipes and no diesel smell (you can smell unburned HC and even see it if rich enough, but not NOx) and bottom line is it took forever before anyone caught on to what they were doing. It was clearly a calculated risk on VWs part, and they lost bigtime.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Mike! said:


> The Hyundai engines / cars did and still do meet all Tier 2 Bin 5 emissions regulations. No reprogramming necessary. The window stickers were wrong, had to be restated, and owners were offered compensation.
> 
> To this day, VW has not deployed a Tier 2 Bin 5 compliant tune for the TDIs (without the cheat). Therefore the fix or buyback situation.


Yeah, but I wasn't talking about Hyundai in my quoted text. It was in reference to the seven diesel engine manufacturers that performed a cheat quite similar to VW's back in the day. But I digress, VW evil, kill them with fire rabble rabble rabble.....


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Silly_me said:


> Yeah, but I wasn't talking about Hyundai in my quoted text. It was in reference to the seven diesel engine manufacturers that performed a cheat quite similar to VW's back in the day. But I digress, VW evil, kill them with fire rabble rabble rabble.....


Lost me there. So far no other company has been found using a cheat like VW's cheat. Just that they emit more pollution under normal driving conditions than during test conditions. That only shows that the tests don't emulate real world conditions.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Automakers brace for tough scrutiny after VW emissions scandal*



> (Bloomberg) -- Automakers have to be clearer about the way they certify their fuel economy and emission ratings as regulators ramp up scrutiny into the gulf between laboratory results and on-road conditions, Daimler CEO Dieter Zetsche said.
> 
> "You can only be transparent and if there's any shortfalls anywhere, fix them and move forward," Zetsche told Bloomberg News ahead of the Beijing auto show opening this week. "It will take some time" for the auto industry in general to be where it was before the Frankfurt auto show last year, he said.
> 
> ...


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

Automotive News article about how the dealers are going to handle this.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

spockcat said:


> Lost me there. So far no other company has been found using a cheat like VW's cheat. Just that they emit more pollution under normal driving conditions than during test conditions. That only shows that the tests don't emulate real world conditions.


In the late 90s volvo, caterpillar, mack, cummins, and three others I can't recall all had defeat devices installed on their truck engines in order to pass emission testing.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Phil Pugliese said:


> Automotive News article about how the dealers are going to handle this.



For those who don't/can't go to the article:



> *VW dealers want remedy done right
> *
> 
> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen's recovery can now begin. But the brand's 652 U.S. dealers will have to wait a couple of months for their turn.
> ...


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

rich! said:


> mine are quite dirty (3.0)


then you're driving it like you stole it.

we have the SAME vehicle and our tailpipes are rare just more than dirty. I've always been amazed at just how clean the rear always is. and when driving behind the wife, who loves to drive it hard, virtually no soot.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> Yeah, but I wasn't talking about Hyundai in my quoted text. It was in reference to the seven diesel engine manufacturers that performed a cheat quite similar to VW's back in the day. But I digress, VW evil, kill them with fire rabble rabble rabble.....


I did some quick research of old news articles. To answer your earlier question, it appears the heavy-truck diesel manufacturers were able to bring their engines into compliance with a recall.

Full details haven't been released yet, but it doesn't appear VW will be able bring all 2.0L TDIs into full compliance, or, bringing them into compliance may have a significant downside such as fuel economy, power, or cost of ownership -- hence the partial buy back. More details will be released on June 21st.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

BUJonathan said:


> More details will be released on June 21st.


More waiting but at least there is some information as to what will happen. June 21st should be the concrete writing for the big plan, from what I gather. 

I think that the initial push will have dealers very overwhelmed. I'm waiting to begin getting flyers from other dealerships asking me to jump ship from VW with some attached incentive. 

I'm now car shopping.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

spockcat said:


> For those who don't/can't go to the article:


Hopefully it's pretty seamless. The $1,000 was super easy and my dealer was cool and gave me a good discount on my timing belt job on my GTI so those funds would cover it.

In a perfect world I'd like to toss them the keys and drive out in a 2017 Golf Alltrack. (Assuming they rumors are correct with Sept 2015 resale value of our TDI wagon and the 5k bonus should put it around a net wash or close enough to be happy.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

aj4066 said:


> More waiting but at least there is some information as to what will happen. June 21st should be the concrete writing for the big plan, from what I gather.
> 
> I think that the initial push will have dealers very overwhelmed. I'm waiting to begin getting flyers from other dealerships asking me to jump ship from VW with some attached incentive.
> 
> I'm now car shopping.


Now would be a good time to buy a VW. Once the buybacks happen, demand should go up.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Assuming VW hands us $5000 as compensation....would it be wrong to spend that money removing the emissions equipment? DPF....gone. EGR.....gone. I'm going for coal rolling status.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Uberhare said:


> Assuming VW hands us $5000 as compensation....would it be wrong to spend that money removing the emissions equipment? DPF....gone. EGR.....gone. I'm going for coal rolling status.


Given how open so many diesel drivers are about disabling their emissions equipment, all this is going to do is drive the EPA to ban light duty vehicles from being allowed to use diesel engines, which sucks for the maybe 80% of owners who actually intended to keep their emissions systems in tact.


----------



## TxJet98 (Jun 29, 2012)

Uberhare said:


> Assuming VW hands us $5000 as compensation....would it be wrong to spend that money removing the emissions equipment? DPF....gone. EGR.....gone. I'm going for coal rolling status.


My thoughts exactly.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

Uberhare said:


> Assuming VW hands us $5000 as compensation....would it be wrong to spend that money removing the emissions equipment? DPF....gone. EGR.....gone. I'm going for coal rolling status.


Yes, yes it would.


----------



## adrew (Aug 15, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> Rich = high HC & soot, low NOx
> Lean = low HC & soot, high NOx
> 
> It would make perfect sense for a high NOx engine to have low soot because it's running extra lean to begin with. That's actually how the combustion process works. So VW runs the diesel motors overly lean in order to report better real world fuel economy, gets visibly clean tailpipes and no diesel smell (you can smell unburned HC and even see it if rich enough, but not NOx) and bottom line is it took forever before anyone caught on to what they were doing. It was clearly a calculated risk on VWs part, and they lost bigtime.


I detect sort of a "chlorine" smell when following newer TDIs. 

So is Toyota known for lean-ish tunes? I find them to make cars in which I can most easily exceed the EPA ratings, and my Yaris exhaust is clean bare metal inside despite flooring it and winding it out all the time (there is a tiny bit of gray dust if you touch the inside). I don't notice any smells from it except I guess you could say ... burning hair ... if I drive it hard for awhile (WOT and high revs up a long mountain grade, 60-90 MPH 3rd gear pass uphill, etc.). My EP3 Civic Si, on the other hand, had tons of soot all over its tips. I know Honda had to get away from lean burn in cars like the 55 MPG Civic VX due to high NOx.

Yaris


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

BUJonathan said:


> I did some quick research of old news articles. To answer your earlier question, it appears the heavy-truck diesel manufacturers were able to bring their engines into compliance with a recall.


Yeah, all I found was that the engines would be 'upgraded' on their scheduled maintenance :laugh: I guess things were a lot simpler (or vague) back in the 90s :laugh:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

rich! said:


> mine are quite dirty (3.0)





AZGolf said:


> you get NOx at the opposite end as HC/soot.
> 
> Rich = high HC & soot, low NOx
> Lean = low HC & soot, high NOx


Then I see two possibilities, rich:

1) You've tuned it to run rich.
2) That's not soot on your tailpipes.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

BUJonathan said:


> Now would be a good time to buy a VW. Once the buybacks happen, demand should go up.


I'm not buying another VW until they give me an inventive to buy one. At this point, they've drug their feet for 7 months knowing this problem would eventually catch up.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

aj4066 said:


> I'm not buying another VW until they give me an inventive to buy one. At this point, they've drug their feet for 7 months knowing this problem would eventually catch up.


Understandable :thumbup: Their most recent reversal to not release the findings of their internal audit only adds fuel to the fire.


----------



## csr67 (Oct 24, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> I'm not buying another VW until they give me an inventive to buy one. At this point, they've drug their feet for 7 months knowing this problem would eventually catch up.


Strongly agree! After owning 6 VWOA products, they're going to have to lube me up pretty good to keep me brand loyal! Now take my Touareg back, add a buttload of cash and a Golf R at invoice and maybe I'll see the light!


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

So some woman merged into me the other day and caused some relatively minor damage to the rear fender on the passenger side. 

Is there a possibility this may cause problems for me in the buy-back? or should I just go through insurance, have it fixed, and not worry about it?


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

BUJonathan said:


> Understandable :thumbup: Their most recent reversal to not release the findings of their internal audit only adds fuel to the fire.


Granted they are not required and probably cannot be compelled (does the 5th amendment apply to corporations?) to release these findings in court but they really shot theirselves in foot by saying they were going to release it and now going back on that promise :facepalm:

VW: We will release the report on the investigation by the end of April!

Jones Day: This report is pretty bad. You probably don't want to release this until you strike a deal with the DOJ

VW: Sorry, we changed are minds, we're not releasing the details of the report.

DOJ: If you don't show up the report we're going to assume the worst and hit you with the maximum penalty. Or perhaps we need to investigate further ourselves because you are clearly hiding something :sly:

VW Shareholders (already suing VW for not disclosing risks due to the software cheat on their financial statements): Look your honor, they clearly haven't learned their lesson and are continuing to withhold information on their financials (technically they wouldn't have to disclose until the next statements but IIRC they delayed or are still delaying them until they can estimate the losses due to Dieselgate so the argument could be made that they new at least some of the info in the report before the financials were released.)


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Vicelord said:


> So some woman merged into me the other day and caused some relatively minor damage to the rear fender on the passenger side.
> 
> Is there a possibility this may cause problems for me in the buy-back? or should I just go through insurance, have it fixed, and not worry about it?


Nobody knows the stipulations on the buyback yet so that question cannot be answered. You can file a claim with your insurance, pocket the cash, and not actually fix the car. Best case scenario VW doesn't care = Profit. Worst case scenario VW does and you already have a repair cost from a non-biased third party in case VW tries to deduct more than what the actual damage is.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

I'm waiting anxiously to see what kind of loyalty cash gets thrown around. Cash + loyalty + decent trade-in on this piece of junk Corolla sitting in my driveway would definitely get me into a stripper Golf in a hurry. :thumbup:

Then we are back to all VW and I can go back to not having to buy tools again. :laugh::facepalm:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

atomicalex said:


> I'm waiting anxiously to see what kind of loyalty cash gets thrown around. Cash + loyalty + decent trade-in on this piece of junk Corolla sitting in my driveway would definitely get me into a stripper Golf in a hurry. :thumbup:
> 
> Then we are back to all VW and I can go back to not having to buy tools again. :laugh::facepalm:


Doesn't that whole _1mm-smaller-sized-bolt-head_ drive you crazy? I know that they do it to save materials since every scrap of steel is imported, and I agree with their reasoning. That said it's still very frustrating when you have a selection of 4 distinctly different 13mm wrenches but now need a 12 to get into a tight spot! :laugh:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Vicelord said:


> So some woman merged into me the other day and caused some relatively minor damage to the rear fender on the passenger side.
> 
> Is there a possibility this may cause problems for me in the buy-back? or should I just go through insurance, have it fixed, and not worry about it?


If you were not at fault, then it has nothing to do with your insurance.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> If you were not at fault, then it has nothing to do with your insurance.


Uh, sure it does.

I'm not dealing with her bull**** insurance (the general) so I have filed a claim with my insurance and they can handle it and go to subrogation.

Regardless, I didn't even say in my post whose insurance I was going through, nor did I share any of the details on the collision. So.... wtf?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Vicelord said:


> nor did I share any of the details on the collision. So.... wtf?





Vicelord said:


> So some woman merged into me the other day


:screwy:


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> Given how open so many diesel drivers are about disabling their emissions equipment, all this is going to do is drive the EPA to ban light duty vehicles from being allowed to use diesel engines, which sucks for the maybe 80% of owners who actually intended to keep their emissions systems in tact.


That's a huge assumption. The EPA has no idea who and how many vehicles have altered or removed emissions equipment because those folks live in regions where emissions testing and inspection don't exist. The EPA can't and won't make the leap based on speculation or guesses.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Vicelord said:


> Uh, sure it does.
> 
> I'm not dealing with her bull**** insurance (the general) so I have filed a claim with my insurance and they can handle it and go to subrogation.
> 
> Regardless, I didn't even say in my post whose insurance I was going through, nor did I share any of the details on the collision. So.... wtf?


You said you had an accident where a lady hit you, and that she hit the back of your car by merging into you. Those are details on the collision which indicate who may be at fault. Did you get a police report, or just take a picture of her insurance card and drive away?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Uberhare said:


> That's a huge assumption. The EPA has no idea who and how many vehicles have altered or removed emissions equipment because those folks live in regions where emissions testing and inspection don't exist. The EPA can't and won't make the leap based on speculation or guesses.


You say they "can't and won't" but the reality is that they've been going after diesel tuner companies since January 2013 already, and that was before they knew just how badly light-duty diesels were abusing the system. For years the EPA has been prosecuting diesel tuners, now they are involved with the largest light duty diesel emissions case ever (partly due to the fact LDV diesel standards were only recently tightened) and it's pretty clear that the EPA means business. One of the top execs of the EPA recently wrote a book stating their end goal is to ban all ICE vehicles, period. To think they will not be successful is to ignore the last 4 decades of continuously tightening standards.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> You said you had an accident where a lady hit you, and that she hit the back of your car by merging into you. Those are details on the collision which indicate who may be at fault. Did you get a police report, or just take a picture of her insurance card and drive away?


The question I asked was in regards to whether fixing the car will impact a buy back.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Vicelord said:


> The question I asked was in regards to whether fixing the car will impact a buy back.


But if you don't fix it people will thin you are too poor to fix it.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> But if you don't fix it people will thin you are too poor to fix it.


I'm ok with that, the dent doesn't really bother me but if it's going to affect a buy back then I will start caring. If I planned to keep the car indefinitely I would likely just not fix it.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Vicelord said:


> If I planned to keep the car indefinitely I would likely just not fix it.


Why? To pocket the insurance money instead of getting your car fixed?


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

No, because I don't care about getting it fixed unless I need to in order to protect the cosmetic condition for a buy-back.

So now, after all that witch hunting, we are back full circle and I'll try asking again.

I was hit the other day and the car has a dent, should I bother dealing with insurance and getting the car fixed to protect any buy-back or should I just leave it?


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

Ugh, it's gonna hail over here tonight. Hope the possible hail damage won't affect the chances of a buyback :thumbdown:


----------



## Astronaut3000 (Sep 9, 2002)

Get the dough, pocket, leave the damage until VWs plans are nailed down, ask the potential buyback dealer then.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

DUBPL8 said:


> Ugh, it's gonna hail over here tonight. Hope the possible hail damage won't affect the chances of a buyback :thumbdown:


if the car is insured, what's the worry????


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

DUBPL8 said:


> Ugh, it's gonna hail over here tonight. Hope the possible hail damage won't affect the chances of a buyback :thumbdown:


I thought it was a legitimate question, I mean if I hand them a car that has three-dimensional damage they theoretically could say "we are subtracting value because of this here dent".


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

It's been stated many times that no information will be released about the buyback until June 21st. That's your answer.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> It's been stated many times that no information will be released about the buyback until June 21st. That's your answer.


even then, the judge has said there will be sufficient time for all parties to have time to review and comment on the proposed agreement......so at least 60 days more until a firm agreement is approved by the court (assuming there are no objections or requested changes).

so I'd say nothing that can affect an owner personally, will happen before September 1, 2016 AT THE EARLEIST.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Vicelord said:


> No, because I don't care about getting it fixed unless I need to in order to protect the cosmetic condition for a buy-back.


If you aren't wanting to pocket the insurance money, and if you don't live in a no-fault state, and the accident wasn't your fault, what's the big deal about getting it fixed, buy back or not (which may not even be your case anyway if a fix is available)?

Witch hunt lol :laugh:


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

Here's the thing about all these questions regarding fixing cars and getting maintanance done. VW will apparently use the pre scandal value, but they will use the mileage and condition of the car as you turn it in. it only makes sense. So if you put 30XXX miles on the car since the scandal broke, they will use the old valuation based on the mileage you have, not the mileage you had. If the car turns up in non-running condition, or with a door hanging off..... they will use pre scandal value but for a car in horrible condition.

Drive it and care for it normally- who know how long all this will take anyways.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

phospher5 said:


> Here's the thing about all these questions regarding fixing cars and getting maintanance done. VW will apparently use the pre scandal value, but they will use the mileage and condition of the car as you turn it in. it only makes sense. So if you put 30XXX miles on the car since the scandal broke, they will use the old valuation based on the mileage you have, not the mileage you had. If the car turns up in non-running condition, or with a door hanging off..... they will use pre scandal value but for a car in horrible condition.
> 
> Drive it and care for it normally- who know how long all this will take anyways.


This. 

This is exactly why I detailed mine on the weekend.

I also have extra coverage for dents and scratches and whatnot. So I'll be using that to clean up the car real nice before they buy it back. 

Sent from my XT1563 using Tapatalk


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

E CODE said:


> This.
> 
> This is exactly why I detailed mine on the weekend.
> 
> ...


Not sure if serious.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



> *Volkswagen seriously made a PowerPoint presentation on how to cheat emissions tests*
> 
> Volkswagen held an internal presentation in 2006 explaining how to evade US diesel emissions testing, according to a New York Times report today. The report cites two individuals who've seen the presentation — an actual PowerPoint file — which has been uncovered in the course of the ongoing investigation into the scandal. Dieselgate, as it's been called, has already felled numerous executives and threatens to cost Volkswagen tens of billions of dollars.
> 
> ...


http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/26/11513530/volkswagen-diesel-emissions-cheat-powerpoint-presentation

Original source:



> *VW Presentation in ’06 Showed How to Foil Emissions Tests*
> 
> 
> FRANKFURT — A PowerPoint presentation was prepared by a top technology executive at Volkswagen in 2006, laying out in detail how the automaker could cheat on emissions tests in the United States.
> ...


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/27/b...-foil-emissions-tests.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0


----------



## Ryan_GTI (Dec 22, 2004)

You'reDrunk said:


> even then, the judge has said there will be sufficient time for all parties to have time to review and comment on the proposed agreement......so at least 60 days more until a firm agreement is approved by the court (assuming there are no objections or requested changes).
> 
> so I'd say nothing that can affect an owner personally, will happen before September 1, 2016 AT THE EARLEIST.



Didn't you also say there was ZERO chance of a buyback?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Mazda 3s said:


> BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Oh please have this made public :laugh:


----------



## Slipstream (Feb 8, 2002)

Mazda 3s said:


> BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/27/b...-foil-emissions-tests.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0


:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

The fact that they originally denied the entire thing, is going to come back and seriously bite them in the ass with this kind of nonsense. :banghead:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Ryan_GTI said:


> Didn't you also say there was ZERO chance of a buyback?


yes.....two months ago. and at that time VW's mindset was fix the cars, not buy them back.....but I think they finally threw in the towel on that idea and found buyback would be cheaper and much less of a logistical nightmare. again, I took that info from an informed source I trusted and believe it was the mindset at that time.

things can and do change.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Hahahahahahahaha!! :laugh:

OMG, this is awesomely hilarious. Now I really don't feel bad about some of the things I said to the ICE team. I mean, I was pretty nasty. Holy poop. :facepalm:


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

You'reDrunk said:


> things can and do change.


Unpossible.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Slipstream said:


> The fact that they originally denied the entire thing, is going to come back and seriously bite them in the ass with this kind of nonsense. :banghead:


And they'd have gotten away with it...


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

article said:


> ...
> If the report is accurate, it would all but cement the theory that Volkswagen's cheating was systematic and widely understood within the company — not just the work of a group of rogue engineers
> ...


as some of us have been saying all along. 
theres too many layers in releasing the product to sneak something like this by "under the table".


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

Meanwhile, my latest trade in offer on my GLI was $14,500 for a pristine car with 17K on it.

My lease residual next year is $16,XXX.

Anyone who says dieselgate isn't affecting the gas models is out of their minds.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

Maximum_Download said:


> Meanwhile, my latest trade in offer on my GLI was $14,500 for a pristine car with 17K on it.
> 
> My lease residual next year is $16,XXX.
> 
> Anyone who says dieselgate isn't affecting the gas models is out of their minds.


What are the private market prices like?


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

MXTHOR3 said:


> What are the private market prices like?


2 weeks ago there was a CPO GLI Edition30 with Nav and DSG for 20 grand even locally, same miles as mine.

Last month the best trade in offer I got was $15,800, so my market value is melting faster than a Mercedes W210 in the salt belt.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

atomicalex said:


> Hahahahahahahaha!! :laugh:
> 
> OMG, this is awesomely hilarious. Now I really don't feel bad about some of the things I said to the ICE team. I mean, I was pretty nasty. Holy poop. :facepalm:


You know, I thought about using this opportunity to snag a Passat or Golf Sportwagen for a cheap price... But I have serious reservations about handing over my hard earned money. Especially in light of these recent news articles.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Mazda 3s said:


> http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/26/11513530/volkswagen-diesel-emissions-cheat-powerpoint-presentation
> 
> Original source:
> 
> ...


Ouch. Well now we see why VW decided not to release the findings of their own internal investigation. I had figured they wouldn't even do a real investigation, and just say "We found these 3 engineers did it all themselves" but I suspect that this was as originally speculated - a very widespread cultural decision. I think even Alex here said that it's very common in German culture to engineer solutions to the test, but then disregard the intent of the test as far as real world performance. I still don't think the US or EU is going to seek to bury VW for this, only to make a very visible example of them and update the tests to be more robust in terms of detecting discrepancies between the lab results and real world performance. I'd be surprised if the regulatory fine is more than $2 billion whenever that is handed down. That could still be years away after all the investigations finally wrap up. Most everyone will have forgotten that this even happened by then.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Maximum_Download said:


> Meanwhile, my latest trade in offer on my GLI was $14,500 for a pristine car with 17K on it.
> 
> My lease residual next year is $16,XXX.
> 
> Anyone who says dieselgate isn't affecting the gas models is out of their minds.


What is effecting your value is all the money VW has put in the trunk of their cars to move them off the lot. If you can buy a $25k MSRP car for $20k, then all the used ones out there lose value too.


----------



## Slipstream (Feb 8, 2002)

MXTHOR3 said:


> What are the private market prices like?


Not *quite* as bad depending on where you're located. Even still - I lost 20% between buying my GTI private party a year ago and selling it a few weeks ago, despite only putting 5k mi on it. I'm pretty sure the only reason I got what I did was because the guy buying it didn't have a clue about Dieselgate (or VW as a whole).



BUJonathan said:


> You know, I thought about using this opportunity to snag a Passat or Golf Sportwagen for a cheap price... But I have serious reservations about handing over my hard earned money. Especially in light of these recent news articles.


Yep. There is literally no way in hell I'd *buy* another VW in the near future. Lease, maybe, but only if it was a showstopping deal. What is overall VW market value going to look like when there is a flood of buy-back TDIs on the used market? I suspect the depreciation free-fall is just getting started. Add in the PR mess these types of articles will create and it isn't going to get better any time soon.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

Slipstream said:


> Yep. There is literally no way in hell I'd *buy* another VW in the near future. Lease, maybe, but only if it was a showstopping deal. What is overall VW market value going to look like when there is a flood of buy-back TDIs on the used market? I suspect the depreciation free-fall is just getting started. Add in the PR mess these types of articles will create and it isn't going to get better any time soon.



agreed.

might make for some nice deals in 6-12 months on late model used vws.


----------



## Slipstream (Feb 8, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> I think even Alex here said that it's very common in German culture to engineer solutions to the test, but then disregard the intent of the test as far as real world performance.


My brother works for a German based company and said something very similar. While American culture is all about the *spirit* of the law, Germans tend to focus on the *letter *of the law. Technically, VW "passed" the emissions test - unethically, but they did pass it. Where VW engineers (and management) may not see a big problem with that, Americans view it as cheating the system. 

I see VW getting off a lot easier in Germany as a result of that, along with Germany's significant stake in the company. The U.S. will seek to nail VW to the wall, especially with shenanigans like the powerpoint presentation and allegations of evidence destruction at VWoA headquarters.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

spockcat said:


> What is effecting your value is all the money VW has put in the trunk of their cars to move them off the lot. If you can buy a $25k MSRP car for $20k, then all the used ones out there lose value too.


He's also comparing Residual (based on estimated resale value) to a trade in quote. It's like comparing trade in to dealer asking price and wondering why their is so much of a difference. My GLI is worth maybe 10-11 grand right now. It's because it's a GLI and VW doesn't market it separately or at all for that matter like they do the GTI. It's seen more as a Jetta with a bigger engine and the market reflects that which is why I found a good local indy VW mechanic and plan to run mine into the ground :thumbup:

But Devils advocate here, VW has historically offered little to no incentives on their cars. Those incentives are a direct result of trying to salvage some of the 25% sales loss by not having any EPA certified diesels to sell. How is that still not a direct result of DieselGate?


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

spockcat said:


> What is effecting your value is all the money VW has put in the trunk of their cars to move them off the lot. If you can buy a $25k MSRP car for $20k, then all the used ones out there lose value too.


I totally agree with you, and I am rolling that into my blanket "Dieselgate" assertion since the incentives were a response to the news. However, I do think the incentives only account for part of the loss - the other is the media black eye that VW has gotten.

Every single sales manager I dealt with mentioned Dieselgate without prompting from me, so it's a consideration. I would have chalked it up to, well, it's a sales manager, but my friends have access to Manheim Auto Auction data, and that data is absolutely *breathtaking *right now. Max auction price of $15,XXX last month, I have no doubt it has gone down since then.


----------



## SJ_GTI (Aug 2, 2006)

Slipstream said:


> My brother works for a German based company and said something very similar. While American culture is all about the *spirit* of the law, Germans tend to focus on the *letter *of the law. Technically, VW "passed" the emissions test - unethically, but they did pass it. Where VW engineers (and management) may not see a big problem with that, Americans view it as cheating the system.
> 
> I see VW getting off a lot easier in Germany as a result of that, along with Germany's significant stake in the company. The U.S. will seek to nail VW to the wall, especially with shenanigans like the powerpoint presentation and allegations of evidence destruction at VWoA headquarters.


It has been posted before, but to be clear, VW did not follow the "letter of the law" in the US either. In the US having a system that performs differently in the lab than it does in normal use is specifically prohibited.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

SJ_GTI said:


> It has been posted before, but to be clear, VW did not follow the "letter of the law" in the US either. In the US having a system that performs differently in the lab than it does in normal use is specifically prohibited.


As someone who works for a German company operating in the United States, you have a legal and fiduciary requirement to know, understand, and follow all local laws. Let me be clear: KNOW, UNDERSTAND, and FOLLOW. THat does not mean only follow the letter of the law, *it means follow the law*.

There is ZERO (repeat: ZERO) excuse for what VW has done, and more to the point, they have completely mismanaged the aftermath as well. First they announce they will share the results of their investigation, then they very publicly change their minds, and now this Powerpoint file.

THey are completely (and publicly) tone deaf at this point. They appear (and probably are) incompetent.


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acscentsci.6b00098



> Start Your Engines
> 
> As the Volkswagen scandal showed, building fuel-efficient, low-emitting vehicles is no easy task.
> Melissae Fellet
> ...


Long, but optimistic view on diesel. Caution on GDI engines.


----------



## MurrayBowles (Jan 28, 2016)

Slipstream said:


> My brother works for a German based company and said something very similar. While American culture is all about the *spirit* of the law, Germans tend to focus on the *letter *of the law. Technically, VW "passed" the emissions test - unethically, but they did pass it. Where VW engineers (and management) may not see a big problem with that, Americans view it as cheating the system.
> 
> I see VW getting off a lot easier in Germany as a result of that, along with Germany's significant stake in the company. The U.S. will seek to nail VW to the wall, especially with shenanigans like the powerpoint presentation and allegations of evidence destruction at VWoA headquarters.


But no, since the letter of the law forbids defeat devices and requires disclosure of controls which affect emissions equipment.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

MurrayBowles said:


> But no, since the letter of the law forbids defeat devices and requires disclosure of controls which affect emissions equipment.


While I wholeheartedly agree, I just want to say that with only two posts and being in this thread... I think we have a new lawyer in The Car Lounge!! 

 :beer:


----------



## MurrayBowles (Jan 28, 2016)

Air and water do mix said:


> While I wholeheartedly agree, I just want to say that with only two posts and being in this thread... I think we have a new lawyer in The Car Lounge!!
> 
> :beer:


Haha. I owned three VWs in a row (Rabbit convertible, Cabrio, Passat) and almost bought a Jetta TDI in 2009, hence my fascination with this topic.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

Slipstream said:


> My brother works for a German based company and said something very similar. While American culture is all about the *spirit* of the law, Germans tend to focus on the *letter *of the law. Technically, VW "passed" the emissions test - unethically, but they did pass it. Where VW engineers (and management) may not see a big problem with that, Americans view it as cheating the system.


Technically speaking, the EPA has been very clear that defeat devices are illegal. If an OEM has questions on the legality of an emissions strategy, there's a formal process to review it with the EPA. I totally understand your point, but I wouldn't give VW much slack on this.


----------



## Slipstream (Feb 8, 2002)

BUJonathan said:


> Technically speaking, the EPA has been very clear that defeat devices are illegal. If an OEM has questions on the legality of an emissions strategy, there's a formal process to review it with the EPA. I totally understand your point, but I wouldn't give VW much slack on this.


Oh, I don't - VW should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I'm just theorizing why the decision to follow through with the cheat device could be so widely accepted internally, and for such a long time.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Slipstream said:


> My brother works for a German based company and said something very similar. While American culture is all about the *spirit* of the law, Germans tend to focus on the *letter *of the law. Technically, VW "passed" the emissions test - unethically, but they did pass it. Where VW engineers (and management) may not see a big problem with that, Americans view it as cheating the system.


So how do you explain all the American companies who got caught by the EPA for emission violations in the past?


----------



## MAGICGTI (Jul 3, 2003)

Maximum_Download said:


> Meanwhile, my latest trade in offer on my GLI was $14,500 for a pristine car with 17K on it.
> 
> My lease residual next year is $16,XXX.
> 
> Anyone who says dieselgate isn't affecting the gas models is out of their minds.


I leased my GTI three weeks before Dieselgate. My first lease, textbook example of how a lease can save your bacon for both of us.


----------



## cjmoy (Aug 23, 2000)

Maximum_Download said:


> There is ZERO (repeat: ZERO) excuse for what VW has done, and more to the point, they have completely mismanaged the aftermath as well. *First they announce they will share the results of their investigation, then they very publicly change their minds, * and now this Powerpoint file.
> 
> THey are completely (and publicly) tone deaf at this point. They appear (and probably are) incompetent.


I thought I read that they were asked by the US DOJ not to release the investigation results.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/justice-department-to-vw-dont-release-results-of-pollution-probe-1461091960



> Justice Department to VW: Don’t Release Results of Pollution Probe
> DOJ officials told the car maker that making the results public would impede other investigations
> By DEVLIN BARRETT and ARUNA VISWANATHA
> April 19, 2016 2:52 p.m. ET
> ...


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

^^ First I've heard of it, but my complaint stands: VW is bumbling this.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

*Volkswagen CEO apologized in person to Obama over scandal*



Associated Press said:


> FRANKFURT, Germany (AP) — Volkswagen's CEO says he apologized in person to U.S. President Barack Obama for the carmaker's emissions scandal, in which it rigged its cars to cheat on diesel engine pollution tests.
> 
> CEO Matthias Mueller said he held a "two minute" conversation with the president during his visit to Hannover, Germany, this week.
> 
> ...


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> Hahahahahahahaha!! :laugh:
> 
> OMG, this is awesomely hilarious. Now I really don't feel bad about some of the things I said to the ICE team. I mean, I was pretty nasty. Holy poop. :facepalm:


Well... at least they stuck to the PowerPoint Rule by only making a few slides. I know product engineers that make PPTs of 100 pages. :sly:

This kind of corporate hubris/arrogance/etc. sounds nothing new. Look at Mitsubishi. Look at Detroit, Inc.'s first half century. 

I'm still waiting for the movie. :thumbup:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

uncleho said:


> I'm still waiting for the movie. :thumbup:



That sounds like a boring movie except when the execs start running around to the tune of Yakkity Sax... "Ze Americans haf found oudt!!!" (Chaos ensues)



(Yep, another Yakkity Sax reference is appropriate)


----------



## adrew (Aug 15, 2003)

Maximum_Download said:


> Meanwhile, my latest trade in offer on my GLI was $14,500 for a pristine car with 17K on it.
> 
> My lease residual next year is $16,XXX.
> 
> Anyone who says dieselgate isn't affecting the gas models is out of their minds.


Quick, take it to CarMax


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

Hajduk said:


> So how do you explain all the American companies who got caught by the EPA for emission violations in the past?


Good ol'-fashioned capitalist pig greed?
:laugh:


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> *Volkswagen CEO apologized in person to Obama over scandal*


Translation: "We are sorry that we got caught with our pants down. Let us remind you that we employ 600k Americans and we are not afraid to use those jobs in retaliation to heavy fines and penalties".


----------



## vwlifer27 (Jun 15, 2005)

Maximum_Download said:


> Meanwhile, my latest trade in offer on my GLI was $14,500 for a pristine car with 17K on it.
> 
> My lease residual next year is $16,XXX.
> 
> Anyone who says dieselgate isn't affecting the gas models is out of their minds.


I guess it depends on where you live. I was offered $16.8 for my '14 gli with 16k miles on it just last week. Not even a '30th edition. Manual too.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

*From Hagens Berman*

VW CASE UPDATE
We write to advise you that the registration deadline for VW and Audi's Goodwill Programs ends TOMORROW for 2.0L vehicles.
The 3.0L deadline is 7/31/16. 

As you may recall, there are operative orders in place which ensure that the Goodwill Programs have "no strings attached" for our clients. Thus, we see no downside in participating in the Programs.

Links to the VW and Audi Goodwill Programs are below:
https://www.vwdieselinfo.com/program_rules/
https://www.audiusa.com/about/diesel-information/a3-diesel/goodwill-package-eligibility

Best,
Steve W. Berman, Managing Partner
Tom Loeser, Partner
[email protected]
VW Owner Resource Hub


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

kickercoach said:


> Tom Loeser


So... much....win :laugh:


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> That sounds like a boring movie except when the execs start running around to the tune of Yakkity Sax... "Ze Americans haf found oudt!!!" (Chaos ensues)
> 
> 
> 
> (Yep, another Yakkity Sax reference is appropriate)


Is you crazy? It'll be great... once they squeeze in JenLaw or ScarJo in the role of... whatever.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

Adding insult to injury, we just received the safety recall letter for Takata airbags in our 2011 A3 TDI. And guess what, there is no repair available yet! Feels like we are truly stuck -- we have to wait until June to see what the settlement is going to be, and meanwhile we get to play russian roulette with the potentially faulty airbag. Would really like to get out of this car now please.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

Takata hopes that these 400K+ cars go back so they don't have to replace them. Then maybe just give VW some sort of credit for the future.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

uncleho said:


> Is you crazy? It'll be great... once they squeeze in JenLaw or ScarJo in the role of... whatever.


:laugh:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

uncleho said:


> once they squeeze in JenLaw or ScarJo in the role of... whatever.


_Costume Designer: Sir, VW engineers don't work in latex body suits.

Director uncleho: Are you questioning my expertise in this matter? Now have Ms. Lawrence bend over and pick up that wrench, slowly......._


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

Silly_me said:


> _Costume Designer: Sir, VW engineers don't work in latex body suits.
> 
> Director uncleho: Are you questioning my expertise in this matter? Now have Ms. Lawrence bend over and pick up that wrench, slowly......._


Insert, "shut up and take my money" meme here.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

btitus said:


> Adding insult to injury, we just received the safety recall letter for Takata airbags in our 2011 A3 TDI. And guess what, there is no repair available yet! Feels like we are truly stuck -- we have to wait until June to see what the settlement is going to be, and meanwhile we get to play russian roulette with the potentially faulty airbag. Would really like to get out of this car now please.


Yep, 2013 Golf TDI affected by Takata airbag as well.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

Jack-DE said:


> Yep, 2013 Golf TDI affected by Takata airbag as well.


Without knowing the parameters of the settlement, it's very hard to know what to do here. Our car is paid for, so we could potentially get into something else now and put the A3 in the garage for a few months until the settlement is figured out. However, if there are going to be big incentives to stay in the VAG family, it would suck to forgo those. Of course getting shredded by a faulty airbag would suck more.


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

Wow, that's a double-whammy.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

btitus said:


> Without knowing the parameters of the settlement, it's very hard to know what to do here. Our car is paid for, so we could potentially get into something else now and put the A3 in the garage for a few months until the settlement is figured out. However, if there are going to be big incentives to stay in the VAG family, it would suck to forgo those. Of course getting shredded by a faulty airbag would suck more.


Well, it looks like the incentive will be a buyback + $5K cash. I do not think they will require you to stay in the VW family to get this incentive. So theoretically you could put the A3 in the garage and wait for this incentive to become official.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

Jack-DE said:


> Well, it looks like the incentive will be a buyback + $5K cash. I do not think they will require you to stay in the VW family to get this incentive. So theoretically you could put the A3 in the garage and wait for this incentive to become official.


Unfortunately, we don't really know for sure, do we? It may be best to proceed that way though. Even by June 21, it's not certain that whatever they announce will be the final deal -- there's still going to be months until it's actually in place, I would guess.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

We aren't going to know anything until June 21st. Speculate until then.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

btitus said:


> Unfortunately, we don't really know for sure, do we? It may be best to proceed that way though. Even by June 21, it's not certain that whatever they announce will be the final deal -- there's still going to be months until it's actually in place, I would guess.


It's pure speculation at this point, but my understanding is that the details will be in concrete June 21st. I personally am looking at different vehicles and positioning myself for what I want to purchase next. 

I don't think it makes any sense to do anything until the 21st, to maximize what may be available.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

aj4066 said:


> It's pure speculation at this point, but my understanding is that the details will be in concrete June 21st. I personally am looking at different vehicles and positioning myself for what I want to purchase next.
> 
> I don't think it makes any sense to do anything until the 21st, to maximize what may be available.


One thing to consider is that CPO inventory is probably going to get killed after the 21st as people scramble to get into something else. I know not everyone is going to bail, but I would think there will be a noticeable effect.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

aj4066 said:


> It's pure speculation at this point, but my understanding is that the details will be in concrete June 21st. I personally am looking at different vehicles and positioning myself for what I want to purchase next.
> 
> I don't think it makes any sense to do anything until the 21st, to maximize what may be available.


your understanding is wrong.

the details will be made public on June 21st, and a public discussion will be opened up (I'm assuming for 60 days) to allow those affected to review and comment on the proposed settlement.

IF there are no objections/changes, the court will accept it and have VW proceed as per the agreement.

BUT, as I suspect, the "victims" and their attorneys will fight over the proposal and request changes; which will delay (and I'd guess significantly) the final agreement and any implementation.

I'd guess early next year at the soonest.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

btitus said:


> Adding insult to injury, we just received the safety recall letter for Takata airbags in our 2011 A3 TDI. And guess what, there is no repair available yet! Feels like we are truly stuck -- we have to wait until June to see what the settlement is going to be, and meanwhile we get to play russian roulette with the potentially faulty airbag. Would really like to get out of this car now please.


Good thing my car still has the airbag light on so I suppose it's a mixed blessing then?


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

btitus said:


> Adding insult to injury, we just received the safety recall letter for Takata airbags in our 2011 A3 TDI. And guess what, there is no repair available yet! Feels like we are truly stuck -- we have to wait until June to see what the settlement is going to be, and meanwhile we get to play russian roulette with the potentially faulty airbag. Would really like to get out of this car now please.


see this is a MUCH bigger issue than the emissions.

I'd NOT drive the vehicle for fear of death or serious injury, and sue Takata for the loss of use....that is a much more plausible and win-able case from my point of view.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

Has anyone come out with a stat that shows injuries due to airbag vs airbags deployed? Would be interesting I bet.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

MXTHOR3 said:


> Has anyone come out with a stat that shows injuries due to airbag vs airbags deployed? Would be interesting I bet.


there have been 10 attributed deaths so far, with a total of 60M (globally) recalled leaving a stat of ~ 0.00000001666666667% chance of dying when a takata airbag deploys.

slim yes, but do you want to play those odds?????


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

You'reDrunk said:


> there have been 10 attributed deaths so far, with a total of 60M (globally) recalled leaving a stat of ~ 0.00000001666666667% chance of dying when a takata airbag deploys.
> 
> slim yes, but do you want to play those odds?????


Exponentially slim.. You'd probably have better odds of winning the lottery.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

btitus said:


> One thing to consider is that CPO inventory is probably going to get killed after the 21st as people scramble to get into something else. I know not everyone is going to bail, but I would think there will be a noticeable effect.


I don't see there being a "scramble", everyone has a car, the program won't be simple to do (how does the average person sell their car to VW without it being a trade?) and there is a good chance you have a long time to take advantage of it. Then just the volume of affected cars will draw this out for a really long time.

I still say the "we will buy back the cars" is meaningless without the details. They come back June 21st with a really bad program and it is back to square one. Then, as said above, the affected owners (reality is the lawyers involved) will get some amount of time to review it and possibly object to the terms before the program starts. 

Like VW, I am also willing to buy anyone's car, I just can't say right now how much I will pay for it or how difficult it will be to sell it to me. Essentially a meaningless offer.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

MXTHOR3 said:


> You'd probably have better odds of winning the lottery.


Or selling a TDI at pre-scandal value.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> Or selling a TDI at pre-scandal value.


ZING!!!! :laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

You'reDrunk said:


> your understanding is wrong.
> 
> the details will be made public on June 21st, and a public discussion will be opened up (I'm assuming for 60 days) to allow those affected to review and comment on the proposed settlement.
> 
> ...


I thought that the 60 day time frame started a few weeks ago when it went to the judge? -hince the June 21st deadline? Another words, June 21st, the judge has to approve or deny the plan VW has in place which will allow them to begin buybacks and or fixes.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

aj4066 said:


> I thought that the 60 day time frame started a few weeks ago when it went to the judge? -hince the June 21st deadline? Another words, June 21st, the judge has to approve or deny the plan VW has in place which will allow them to begin buybacks and or fixes.


how??

none of the public/those affected have had an opportunity to review and comment on the proposed plan????

all of the plaintiff's attorneys will want to review and chime in before they consider any plan as acceptable. and mark my words, THIS will be what drags out any final approve plan to mitigate the class actions.....the judge will have more problems hearding the myriad of attorneys than he did with VW.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> I thought that the 60 day time frame started a few weeks ago when it went to the judge? -hince the June 21st deadline? Another words, June 21st, the judge has to approve or deny the plan VW has in place which will allow them to begin buybacks and or fixes.


Per Wiki:



> On 21 April 2016, the federal district court for the Northern District of California, which was appointed in December 2015 (see below) to oversee almost all of the litigation in the United States, including claims filed by vehicle owners and state governments, announced that Volkswagen will offer its US customers "substantial compensation" and car buyback offers for nearly 500,000 2.0-litre vehicles, as part of a settlement aiming to resolve the emissions scandal in North America. Former FBI Director Robert Mueller was appointed by the court as a mediator to oversee the ongoing settlement negotiations between claimants, regulators, and Volkswagen, who are required to produce a final "consent decree" by late June 2016



June 21st is the date the *Consent Decree* is to be produced.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

You'reDrunk said:


> how??
> 
> none of the public/those affected have had an opportunity to review and comment on the proposed plan????
> 
> all of the plaintiff's attorneys will want to review and chime in before they consider any plan as acceptable. and mark my words, THIS will be what drags out any final approve plan to mitigate the class actions.....the judge will have more problems hearding the myriad of attorneys than he did with VW.


X2, then a bunch of lawyers who get paid to review and question what is presented, possibly ask for more or clarifications and it goes back to VW for their response. Then their lawyers who get paid and....

The owners who are happy with their cars as they are and don't want to be forced into doing anything have nothing to worry about any time soon.


----------



## Ambrose Wolfinger (Feb 21, 2005)

I'm seeing some used late model (2010-2013) TDIs showing up for sale at local VW dealers. Does this mean there is a fix? I thought they were not allowed to sel them until a fix has been found


----------



## NoDubJustYet (Mar 25, 2002)

Lindsay VW (right down the street from HQ) has a handful of used TDIs for sale right now: http://www.lindsayvolkswagen.com/us...rection=asc&fueltype[0]=Diesel&sf=sf_fueltype


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

Silly_me said:


> Or selling a TDI at pre-scandal value.


Now that was funny, lol!


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

bill1975 said:


> I'm seeing some used late model (2010-2013) TDIs showing up for sale at local VW dealers. Does this mean there is a fix? I thought they were not allowed to sel them until a fix has been found


They are allowed to sell TDI's as used cars. They cannot sell them as CPO (certified pre-owned) though. I see them here at my local VW dealer as well.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

You'reDrunk said:


> how??
> 
> none of the public/those affected have had an opportunity to review and comment on the proposed plan????
> 
> all of the plaintiff's attorneys will want to review and chime in before they consider any plan as acceptable. and mark my words, THIS will be what drags out any final approve plan to mitigate the class actions.....the judge will have more problems hearding the myriad of attorneys than he did with VW.


The plaintiff's attorneys were part of the initial settlement discussions. Review the court documents. The plaintiff's attorneys have already been quoted as saying said this is the best possible deal any of the owners could hope for. Of course this does not preclude any of the owners from disagreeing with the settlement and carrying on, on their own. I say good luck with that.

The plaintiff attorneys already have a good handle on their portion of the payout, forget much more from them.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

You'reDrunk said:


> how??
> 
> none of the public/those affected have had an opportunity to review and comment on the proposed plan????
> 
> all of the plaintiff's attorneys will want to review and chime in before they consider any plan as acceptable. and mark my words, THIS will be what drags out any final approve plan to mitigate the class actions.....the judge will have more problems hearding the myriad of attorneys than he did with VW.


Your opportunity to review and comment on the court documents is between now and June 21st. Little Joey with his TDI means nothing to VW at this point. What matters is lawyers and a Judge.

The lawyers already had their hand in things prior to the proposal meeting a few weeks ago. The settlement has been proposed (buyback/fix/heres $5,000) with lawyers involved...which now have until June 21st to say yay or nay. I don't think the judge is going to let this play out for months upon months. 



kickercoach said:


> The plaintiff's attorneys were part of the initial settlement discussions. Review the court documents. The plaintiff's attorneys have already been quoted as saying said this is the best possible deal any of the owners could hope for. Of course this does not preclude any of the owners from disagreeing with the settlement and carrying on, on their own. I say good luck with that. The plaintiff attorneys already have a good handle on their portion of the payout, forget much more from them.


This. ^^

Again, just my understanding. If I am wrong, it will be the first time. :laugh:

I'm still sorta expecting to be out of my car by years end.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

kickercoach said:


> The plaintiff's attorneys were part of the initial settlement discussions. Review the court documents. The plaintiff's attorneys have already been quoted as saying said this is the best possible deal any of the owners could hope for. Of course this does not preclude any of the owners from disagreeing with the settlement and carrying on, on their own. I say good luck with that.
> 
> The plaintiff attorneys already have a good handle on their portion of the payout, forget much more from them.


I have seen nothing that explains the details and without details I don't see how an agreement could have been reached. Best I can tell they agreed to the general proposal but VW has until the 21st of June to have the full plan laid out. 

Please post what you have.


----------



## Code Red! (Sep 22, 2011)

You'reDrunk said:


> none of the public/those affected have had an opportunity to review and comment on the proposed plan????


“But the plans were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”


----------



## NoDubJustYet (Mar 25, 2002)

coderedcomputing said:


> “But the plans were on display…”
> “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
> “That’s the display department.”
> “With a flashlight.”
> ...



Don't Panic.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

NoDubJustYet said:


> Don't Panic.
> -Tim Cook


:thumbup:


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

dmorrow said:


> I have seen nothing that explains the details and without details I don't see how an agreement could have been reached. Best I can tell they agreed to the general proposal but VW has until the 21st of June to have the full plan laid out.
> 
> Please post what you have.


That is my understanding as well. They agreed to a framework, and then gave VW until June 21 to come back with some numbers filled in. We don't even know what the framework is other than, 'some cars might get bought back, some cars might get fixed, owners might get payments.' Which is kind of where we've been since September.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

dmorrow said:


> I have seen nothing that explains the details and without details I don't see how an agreement could have been reached. Best I can tell they agreed to the general proposal but VW has until the 21st of June to have the full plan laid out.
> 
> Please post what you have.


You have a gap in your time line. Most of the key issues have been addressed, down to some level of detail. The problem here is that all of the parties are under a gag order from the judge. You think those lawyers were patting them selves on the back without have gotten VW to roll over? 

A number lead lawyers have been quoted in the press, talking about the agreement and how great it is (with out details as they are under a gag order) for owners. Some links already posted on this site. 

Google is you friend here. I make for a lousy research assistant, especially when there is no money involved.


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

kickercoach said:


> Most of the key issues have been addressed, down to some level of detail.


I don't know where you are getting your information. I thought I was following this pretty closely, on quite a few public sources, and there are still very important questions that are unanswered, or have not been made public. Background: my SO has a 2010 Jetta TDI, bought new, that she was planning on keeping for at least 15 years. She does not want to give it up, does not want to buy a used car, or take on car payments for a replacement used or new car.

"Owners of 2.0L TDIs will be able to choose between a buyback or having their cars repaired."

Does this mean that *all* 2.0L owners will have that choice? Or, if the first generation TDIs cannot be repaired (as some sources suggest), will those owners only have the buyback option?

"Owners will also receive a $5000 payment, as compensation."

Is this really the settlement amount? Will *all* owners receive the same amount, or will it depend on whether the user chooses a repair or buyback? Will the amount depend on the model year, or mileage, or physical condition of the car?

"Owners who choose the buyback will get an amount determined by fair market value before the scandal."

Similar questions apply to the buy back offers. Will the buyback payment include FMV *plus* a compensation amount ($5000 or whatever)? Who determines FMV? Do the offers depend on mileage and physical condition of the car? What if an owner is only given the buyback option, but chooses to refuse it. What options remain to them? Can they join a class action lawsuit? Will the federal, state, and local governments allow them to keep the car? Will local agencies allow the car to pass inspections? Can it be re-registered?

How will the compensation payments, repairs, and buyback transactions be scheduled? Beginning when? Spread out over what time period?

Perhaps all these questions will be answered by June 21. Maybe not.


----------



## btitus (Nov 8, 2010)

julianv said:


> I don't know where you are getting your information. I thought I was following this pretty closely, on quite a few public sources, and there are still very important questions that are unanswered, or have not been made public. Background: my SO has a 2010 Jetta TDI, bought new, that she was planning on keeping for at least 15 years. She does not want to give it up, does not want to buy a used car, or take on car payments for a replacement used or new car.
> 
> "Owners of 2.0L TDIs will be able to choose between a buyback or having their cars repaired."
> 
> ...


Basically, as you've demonstrated with your post, we are in the same position we've been in for months. Very frustrating.


----------



## porterrad (Aug 19, 2011)

julianv said:


> I don't know where you are getting your information. I thought I was following this pretty closely, on quite a few public sources, and there are still very important questions that are unanswered, or have not been made public. Background: my SO has a 2010 Jetta TDI, bought new, that she was planning on keeping for at least 15 years. She does not want to give it up, does not want to buy a used car, or take on car payments for a replacement used or new car.
> 
> "Owners of 2.0L TDIs will be able to choose between a buyback or having their cars repaired."
> 
> ...


The gag order makes it clear that details are incomplete. Among other inconsistencies, FMV + $5k = more $ than VW has allocated for the U.S. settlement - after the $7 Bil set aside for legal fees. It looks like June 21 will come & go w/o enough details for TDI owners to make decisions.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

julianv said:


> I don't know where you are getting your information. I thought I was following this pretty closely, on quite a few public sources, and there are still very important questions that are unanswered, or have not been made public. Background: my SO has a 2010 Jetta TDI, bought new, that she was planning on keeping for at least 15 years. She does not want to give it up, does not want to buy a used car, or take on car payments for a replacement used or new car.
> 
> "Owners of 2.0L TDIs will be able to choose between a buyback or having their cars repaired."
> 
> ...


Agree completely, I have also followed this pretty closely and haven't read anything that answers the above. 

From http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN0XI24G



> Breyer did not disclose the amount of money involved, and ordered lawyers for all parties not to disclose details until they were final. He said there is "definite momentum" toward a final resolution.
> 
> The judge set the June 21 deadline for VW and the other parties to nail down the final details before the agreement faces a public comment period. It would need final judicial approval before taking effect.


Definite momentum toward a final resolution is not the same as having an agreement in place.

They have until June 21 to nail down the details before a public comment period. Then who knows what happens with the public comments. Then who knows how long it will take for the final judicial approval.

From this article June 21st is only a deadline for one of a number of steps that need to take place before things can actually start happening for owners of the cars. The idea that they will start buying back cars on July 22nd doesn't seem possible.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

Ok, so you don't think the case is settled? The public study/comment period is merely a time for comments heard, period. 

"his was an unbelievably fast resolution of a sprawling case. VW’s lead lawyer, Robert Giuffra of Sullivan & Cromwell, said in court Thursday that he is not aware of any other multidistrict litigation that has settled as quickly as this one. Nor can I. Judge Breyer was assigned the case in mid-December. He appointed lead counsel in mid-January. The class filed its consolidated complaint in February, and two months later, the case settled."

http://blogs.reuters.com/alison-fra...w-clean-emissions-deal-a-former-fbi-director/

Sorry you-all are upset you don't know the details. TDI Ted can go throw a tantrum. Only the simplest of details remain. Like I said, for the most part the decisions have been made (just unpublished). The lawyers know their payout, but us unlucky TDI owners are still flailing in the wind. Get used to it.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

julianv said:


> I don't know where you are getting your information. I thought I was following this pretty closely, on quite a few public sources, and there are still very important questions that are unanswered, or have not been made public. Background: my SO has a 2010 Jetta TDI, bought new, that she was planning on keeping for at least 15 years. She does not want to give it up, does not want to buy a used car, or take on car payments for a replacement used or new car.


I'm not disputing your situation, but I will say that she in a serious rock and a hard spot. The car isn't legal to drive in the US per the EPA. If it can't be fixed, it's getting bought back. If it can be fixed, it will be and you will be compensated. 

My guess is that there will be less compensation for those who have their vehicles bright into EPA specifications. 



dmorrow said:


> From http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN0XI24G
> 
> They have until June 21 to nail down the details before a public comment period. Then who knows what happens with the public comments. Then who knows how long it will take for the final judicial approval.
> 
> From this article June 21st is only a deadline for one of a number of steps that need to take place before things can actually start happening for owners of the cars. The idea that they will start buying back cars on July 22nd doesn't seem possible.


Son of a gun. Its the first time I've been wrong on something. :banghead:


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

kickercoach said:


> Ok, so you don't think the case is settled? The public study/comment period is merely a time for comments heard, period.
> 
> Sorry you-all are upset you don't know the details. TDI Ted can go throw a tantrum. Only the simplest of details remain. Like I said, for the most part the decisions have been made (just unpublished). The lawyers know their payout, but us unlucky TDI owners are still flailing in the wind. Get used to it.


Yup. People need to understand what the Consent Decree means.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent_decree



> The process of introducing a consent decree begins with negotiation. One of the three happens: a lawsuit is filed and the parties concerned reach an agreement prior to adjudication of the contested issues; a lawsuit is filed and actively contested, and the parties reach an agreement after the court has ruled on some issues; or the parties settle their dispute prior to the filing of a lawsuit and they simultaneously file a lawsuit and request that the court agree to the entry of judgment. The court is meant to turn this agreement into a judicial decree. In many cases, the request for entry of a consent decree prompts judges to sign the documents presented then and there. In some cases, however, such as criminal cases, the judge must additionally make some sort of assessments before the court’s entry of the agreement as a consent decree.
> 
> The usual consent decree is not self-executing. A consent decree is implemented when the parties transform their agreements from paper to reality. In this the judge who signed the decree may have no involvement or may monitor the implementation. The judge can only step in to assist in enforcement if a party complains to the court that an opponent has failed to perform as agreed. In this case, the offending party would be committed for contempt.
> 
> ...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> The car isn't legal to drive in the US per the EPA. If it can't be fixed, it's getting bought back. If it can be fixed, it will be and you will be compensated.


Actually the car most certainly IS legal to drive per the EPA. It was illegally _certified_ by the manufacturer, but that is not the owner's problem, it's the manufacturer's problem. Every TDI is still legal to use on public roads and legal to buy and sell as-is for everyone with the exception that VW dealers have suspended the sale of new & CPO TDI's from the affected model years.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

Uberhare said:


> Yup. People need to understand what the Consent Decree means.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent_decree



This :thumbup:

The real question, how many will read and understand? :banghead:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> Actually the car most certainly IS legal to drive per the EPA. It was illegally _certified_ by the manufacturer, but that is not the owner's problem, it's the manufacturer's problem. Every TDI is still legal to use on public roads and legal to buy and sell as-is for everyone with the exception that VW dealers have suspended the sale of new & CPO TDI's from the affected model years.


Right, which means it isn't legal per the EPA now that this has surfaced. It isn't the owners fault, it's the manufactures fault, so the manufacture is going to bring the vehicle into compliance or buy them back. 

It will be interesting to see how the re-registering of these vehicles gets handled.


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

dmorrow said:


> From this article June 21st is only a deadline for one of a number of steps that need to take place before things can actually start happening for owners of the cars. The idea that they will start buying back cars on *June* 22nd doesn't seem possible.


FTFY...?


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

kickercoach said:


> The real question, how many will read and understand? :banghead:



I'm sure sorry we don't all have the same knowledge base and experiences. We should try to be more like you.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> Right, which means it isn't legal per the EPA now that this has surfaced. It isn't the owners fault, it's the manufactures fault, so the manufacture is going to bring the vehicle into compliance or buy them back.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how the re-registering of these vehicles gets handled.


I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of EPA's role in all of this. The vehicles are 100% legal to own, sell, buy, and trade. I bought my TDI a good month after the scandal was made public. I can sell it tomorrow if I want.


Interestingly, I did a quick search on emissions testing in WA State and found that all diesel VW vehicles are exempt from emissions testing. Weird. 

http://www.emissiontestwa.com/E/faq.aspx

But I also wanted to point out the EPA has a FAQ section related to the VW diesel issue. It might be worth reading over so you know the FACTS. The EPA themselves say the vehicles are safe and legal to own and drive. Period. 

https://www.epa.gov/vw/frequent-questions-about-volkswagen-violations


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Uberhare said:


> I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of EPA's role in all of this. The vehicles are 100% legal to own, sell, buy, and trade. I bought my TDI a good month after the scandal was made public. I can sell it tomorrow if I want.
> 
> But I also wanted to point out the EPA has a FAQ section related to the VW diesel issue. It might be worth reading over so you know the FACTS. The EPA themselves say the vehicles are safe and legal to own and drive. Period.
> 
> https://www.epa.gov/vw/frequent-questions-about-volkswagen-violations


Once the judge rules that they must be fixed or bought back...guess what? A recall will be in effect which has the potential to stop the buying and selling of the vehicles. Will it happen on the private level...it will in states that require emissions testing. 

FWIW, I hate the EPA.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

My previous false-docket VW was legal to drive, legal to sell, legal to do whatever the heck I wanted to with for as long as I owned it. No idea what happened to it. There were never any open recalls, either.


----------



## Charles Devine (Aug 22, 2007)

Anything documented and new since the gag order about possible buyback besides speculated propaganda? Also can someone educate me on GAP insurance if the car is bought back, does it have to be in the clause that they will pay the difference or is that not considered totaled? Honestly curious on this factor.... I may wind up owing more than my cars BB price (whatever it should be). Also if they are offering a BB situation shouldn't the car be bought back at purchase price without accumulated mileage depreciation due to the fact the vehicle never met federal guidelines? Obviously this may vary state to state. :beer:


Also while I'm on the subject, if I should move to a state which requires emissions testing such as CA, can I not at this point pass emissions testing to register as a resident and therefore not register my car in that state?

-Charles


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> Right, which means it isn't legal per the EPA now that this has surfaced.


You're trying to say it's not legal to drive the cars, but you are just flat out wrong. Representatives from the EPA & CARB have even said as much: owners are free to continue to drive their cars. Why? Because the process VW used was illegal, but owners driving their cars is legal.

Did you know the EPA has an entire part of their website devoted to this? It's EPA.gov/VW. From the FAQ:

https://www.epa.gov/vw/frequent-questions-about-volkswagen-violations



EPA.gov said:


> Can I continue to drive my vehicle?
> 
> Yes. These cars are safe and legal to drive. Owners do not need to take any action at this time.


The cars are LEGAL to drive. The EPA's own website even says as much. Stop saying the cars are illegal to drive.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

aj4066 said:


> Son of a gun. Its the first time *this page* I've been wrong on something. :banghead:


Lemme fix that for you.......



aj4066 said:


> Once the judge rules


The EPA does not answer to the Lord Charles Breyer, he is merely overseeing the class action suit filed on behalf of the downtrodden TDI owners. His decree was that if a final solution ( :laugh: ) was not arranged between VW and the EPA that he would wave his magic gavel of judicial whoop ass and allow for the class action trial to commence.

His power over the legality of the cars being on the road is none. His ability to force a buy back is none. His miniature Pegasus unicorn does not exist. He was simply trying to finalize the trial before it began by waving a big stick (read: California has some interesting laws to stick it to the man :laugh: ). The final solution may include buy backs, fixes, lifetime supply of gingersnaps, but whatever it be it be all the EPA's doing. VW had to appease the EPA before any 'agreement' could be made. That's why Breyer *demanded* conclusion from *both* parties and extended the deadline as needed. He essentially forced the EPA to expedite negotiations, I mean, they'd look pretty well the ass for holding it up....other than saving face I can't see what their motivation would be; oh wait, there it is:

The EPA and DOJ Civil case against VW is also on Breyer's desk as well, and that case also won't impact the ability to drive, sell, and have sex in the TDIs either, its sole purpose is to seek monies and punishments above and beyond what the EPA could levy on the company through their normal abilities to lay the smack down on companies that break the clean air act.

Also, is it a coincidence that ex-FBI director Robert Mueller is installed as Grand Poobah of the settlement proceedings when he is, in real life, the long lost twin brother of arch villain Matthias Müller, separated at birth during a freak storm on the North Sea where Robert's crib floated aimlessly for days until it was retrieved by a roaming band of seafaring gypsies before being sold into servitude to the United States civil servant corps? One worked for power and wealth and the other one did the same thing, just differently. Whereas this inevitable colossal crescendo to battle was all a plot to pit east versus not so far east as orchestrated by BIG BOSS aka Ferdinand Piëch!!!! No, this is no mere coincidence, no aligning of the night stars, don't be a fool, this was a long time coming as they are all actually clones of Count Ferdinand von Zeppelin whose master plan was to engulf the world in thick coats of NOX from his LZ1 airship in order to rid the world of the elderly and sickly!!! :sly: I'm pitching all this to Hideo Kojima coincidentally.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

Air and water do mix said:


> I'm sure sorry we don't all have the same knowledge base and experiences. We should try to be more like you.



Sensitive? For a reason maybe?:banghead::banghead::banghead:


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

Dropping out now until page 465 appears @ June 21st.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

The game is over..


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Not while I still own a TDI, it ain't!


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

Uberhare said:


> I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of EPA's role in all of this. The vehicles are 100% legal to own, sell, buy, and trade. I bought my TDI a good month after the scandal was made public. I can sell it tomorrow if I want.
> 
> 
> Interestingly, I did a quick search on emissions testing in WA State and found that all diesel VW vehicles are exempt from emissions testing. Weird.
> ...


As of now, the cars are legal to drive. The concern for many of us is: will our cars still be legal to drive in the future, if we refuse to comply with a government-mandated recall fix or buyback. As I surmised in an earlier post (and confirmed in the EPA page that you referenced), this may depend on state or local government regulations.

In WA state, where I live, TDIs were exempted from bi-annual emissions testing, maybe because the state regulators trusted the EPA tests and believed that these really were "clean" diesels. Now that the EPA data is known to be bogus, the state may withdraw the exemption and require owners to bring the cars in for testing, or to show proof that they have had the recall fix done. WA cars which don't meet those conditions are likely to lose their registration. If early TDIs are unfixable and designated for buyback, and the owners refuse the buyback, will the state allow the cars to be re-registered? We don't know.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

kickercoach said:


> Sensitive? For a reason maybe?:banghead::banghead::banghead:


Not at all. 

When someone is being a condescending jerk I simply call them out on the carpet. Perhaps your life experiences will eventually lead you down a path of being kinder to people.


Perhaps not.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

kickercoach said:


> Ok, so you don't think the case is settled? The public study/comment period is merely a time for comments heard, period.
> 
> "his was an unbelievably fast resolution of a sprawling case. VW’s lead lawyer, Robert Giuffra of Sullivan & Cromwell, said in court Thursday that he is not aware of any other multidistrict litigation that has settled as quickly as this one. Nor can I. Judge Breyer was assigned the case in mid-December. He appointed lead counsel in mid-January. The class filed its consolidated complaint in February, and two months later, the case settled."
> 
> ...


From above the VW lead lawyer says it is resolved but from mine U.S. District Judge Breyer says they have good momentum and the details are not finalized? Based on who they work for I would assume the VW lawyer has more reason to show a happy face than the judge?

Also from your article - 



> The precise details of Mueller’s involvement in the settlement haven’t emerged, and he declined, through a Wilmer representative, to comment for this post. *His work isn’t done, either. VW’s agreements in principle must still be put into a consent decree with federal regulators, an agreement with California officials and a proposed settlement of the class action. Judge Breyer joked that he expects all of the lawyers to keep up their brutal work schedule until the deals are done.* And if they are in Mueller’s offices until 3 in the morning, you can bet the former FBI director will be there as well.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

julianv said:


> As of now, the cars are legal to drive. The concern for many of us is: *will* our cars still be legal to drive in the future, if we refuse to comply with a government-mandated recall fix or buyback. As I surmised in an earlier post (and confirmed in the EPA page that you referenced), this *may* depend on state or local government regulations.
> 
> In WA state, where I live, TDIs were exempted from bi-annual emissions testing, *maybe* because the state regulators trusted the EPA tests and believed that these really were "clean" diesels. Now that the EPA data is known to be bogus, the state *may* withdraw the exemption and require owners to bring the cars in for testing, or to show proof that they have had the recall fix done. WA cars which don't meet those conditions are *likely* to lose their registration. *If* early TDIs are unfixable and designated for buyback, and the owners refuse the buyback, *will* the state allow the cars to be re-registered? *We don't know*.


Seems like you are taking almost no real information and worrying about the worst case scenario that might happen someday if a number of things that could happen actually do.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

dmorrow said:


> From above the VW lead lawyer says it is resolved but from mine U.S. District Judge Breyer says they have good momentum and the details are not finalized? Based on who they work for I would assume *the VW lawyer has more reason to show a happy face than the judge?*


This much is certain. Sure, the judge could be trying to spotlight his career because of elections or some such, but that can't be assumed outright. It can, however, be assumed that VW wants to paint as rosy of a picture as they can. :beer:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

julianv said:


> *As of now, the cars are legal to drive. The concern for many of us is: will our cars still be legal to drive in the future, if we refuse to comply with a government-mandated recall fix or buyback.* As I surmised in an earlier post (and confirmed in the EPA page that you referenced), this may depend on state or local government regulations.
> 
> In WA state, where I live, TDIs were exempted from bi-annual emissions testing, maybe because the state regulators trusted the EPA tests and believed that these really were "clean" diesels. Now that the EPA data is known to be bogus, the state may withdraw the exemption and require owners to bring the cars in for testing, or to show proof that they have had the recall fix done. WA cars which don't meet those conditions are likely to lose their registration. If early TDIs are unfixable and designated for buyback, and the owners refuse the buyback, will the state allow the cars to be re-registered? We don't know.


My thoughts exactly. 




Silly_me said:


> The EPA does not answer to the Lord Charles Breyer, he is merely overseeing the class action suit filed on behalf of the downtrodden TDI owners. His decree was that if a final solution ( :laugh: ) was not arranged between VW and the EPA that he would wave his magic gavel of judicial whoop ass and allow for the class action trial to commence.
> 
> His power over the legality of the cars being on the road is none. His ability to force a buy back is none. His miniature Pegasus unicorn does not exist. He was simply trying to finalize the trial before it began by waving a big stick (read: California has some interesting laws to stick it to the man :laugh: ). The final solution may include buy backs, fixes, lifetime supply of gingersnaps, but whatever it be it be all the EPA's doing. VW had to appease the EPA before any 'agreement' could be made. That's why Breyer *demanded* conclusion from *both* parties and extended the deadline as needed. He essentially forced the EPA to expedite negotiations, I mean, they'd look pretty well the ass for holding it up....other than saving face I can't see what their motivation would be; oh wait, there it is:
> 
> The EPA and DOJ Civil case against VW is also on Breyer's desk as well, and that case also won't impact the ability to drive, sell, and have sex in the TDIs either, its sole purpose is to seek monies and punishments above and beyond what the EPA could levy on the company through their normal abilities to lay the smack down on companies that break the clean air act.


The EPA doesn't answer to the Judge, but the Judge answers to the EPA, much like VW and every other person and corporation that does business in the US does. Is the car legal to drive at the moment, yes as there is a case in process as to how to handle the situation. Is the car within the guidelines that the EPA has set for the US, no. At some point, either the EPA has to give in or the end owner will have to give in. VW is in the middle as they have created the mess, and VW will eventually ask TDI owners to either a) go through with the buyback or b) fix the car. For those who don't do one or the other, we don't know what will happen. My thought is that the vehicle doesn't meet the EPA guidelines and like other industries that the EPA has shut down, pulling a car off of the road due to emissions will be simple for them to do.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> The EPA doesn't answer to the Judge, but the Judge answers to the EPA, much like VW and every other person and corporation that does business in the US does. Is the car legal to drive at the moment, yes as there is a case in process as to how to handle the situation. Is the car within the guidelines that the EPA has set for the US, no. At some point, either the EPA has to give in or the end owner will have to give in. VW is in the middle as they have created the mess, and VW will eventually ask TDI owners to either a) go through with the buyback or b) fix the car. For those who don't do one or the other, we don't know what will happen. My thought is that the vehicle doesn't meet the EPA guidelines and like other industries that the EPA has shut down, pulling a car off of the road due to emissions will be simple for them to do.


Agree somewhat. Judge can't force the EPA to do anything but the EPA also can't force the judge to accept an agreement that isn't satisfactory to the other parties. Judge is there to mediate the overall system and if the parties involved can't come to an agreement it was already said it will end up in court (reason for the deadlines).

I think reality is the compensation amount is being negotiated to make it so most people want to get their cars fixed. They offer the average person $5k (or whatever the number) to fix their car and/or a favorable buyback and the process happens without trying to force the cars off the road. States don't get involved, EPA an CARB don't have to fight it out with car owners and states. Then they realize some small amount of people may not take the money or buyback but the number is too small for them to care much. Chances of 100% compliance for anything is very small.

Yes people could then tear everything back off of the car but this has been true with new cars from day one, most barely know where the oil on their cars go, they aren't interested in tearing off pollution control equipment and most shops aren't interested in doing it for them (because of legal issues).


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

:banghead:


Air and water do mix said:


> Not at all.
> 
> When someone is being a condescending jerk I simply call them out on the carpet. Perhaps your life experiences will eventually lead you down a path of being kinder to people.
> 
> ...


:banghead: When the answers and links are posted over and over, and over, and over, and over...and over, I call stupid stupid. I already spent to much time with stupid... :banghead::banghead:


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

dmorrow said:


> Seems like you are taking almost no real information and worrying about the worst case scenario that might happen someday if a number of things that could happen actually do.


This. :thumbup:

I would have to mention that the great state of Washington has not enforced a recall on any vehicles I am aware of (please correct if I am wrong). Not even for safety reasons like exploding gas tanks or broken steering bolts or faulty third brakes lights or...


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

aj4066 said:


> pulling a car off of the road due to emissions will be simple for them to do.


Easy as in: there is no law that would allow them to do so. Registration efforts are handled on the State level, and if a State does not have a law in place that would allow them to block registration due to emissions failure there aint a dang gone thing they can do to 'em. Genie is out of the bag.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

julianv said:


> As of now, the cars are legal to drive. The concern for many of us is: will our cars still be legal to drive in the future, if we refuse to comply with a government-mandated recall fix or buyback. As I surmised in an earlier post (and confirmed in the EPA page that you referenced), this may depend on state or local government regulations.
> 
> In WA state, where I live, TDIs were exempted from bi-annual emissions testing, maybe because the state regulators trusted the EPA tests and believed that these really were "clean" diesels. Now that the EPA data is known to be bogus, the state may withdraw the exemption and require owners to bring the cars in for testing, or to show proof that they have had the recall fix done. WA cars which don't meet those conditions are likely to lose their registration. If early TDIs are unfixable and designated for buyback, and the owners refuse the buyback, will the state allow the cars to be re-registered? We don't know.


Speculation. There is nothing to suggest the states or even the feds would prevent you from registering or even buy tabs for your TDI. In fact, in the WA county where I live all passenger vehicles regardless of age or type are exempt from emissions testing. So even if I refuse the recall fix I'm still able to buy, sell, register, and otherwise own and drive a TDI vehicle. People in and around bigger cities with more strict emissions regulations MIGHT run into issues with registration but, again, there is nothing so far to suggest it will be a issue. It's pure speculation.

Again, please read the FAQ sections issued by EPA.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

I remember when vehicles were being imported by importers as kit cars, fully legalized by the state and certified to drive on the road, and then the EPA stepped in and crushed them. In fact I know of 2 GTR's and a Land Rover hiding out in barns right now. Oh, I also remember the EPA doing the cash for clunkers program and pulled a bunch of perfectly fine vehicles off of the road, too. 

I think some of you folks think I am on the side of the EPA. Not at all. Do I think VW should own up to their mistake, yes. I said many months ago, the EPA will do what the EPA wants to do. The EPA views your 50mpg coal rolling diesel that is a very small percentage of the vehicles on the roadway as a item that will completely destroy the earth and their mission in life is to stop that from happening. 



opcorn:


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

Why doesn't VW just offer to fix the solution by some offsetting other beneficial project like solar farms or wind plants or something? Kinda of a carbon credit like sorta thing.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

jnm2.0t said:


> Why doesn't VW just offer to fix the solution by some offsetting other beneficial project like solar farms or wind plants or something? Kinda of a carbon credit like sorta thing.



I am sure VW has offered all kinds of possible solutions, they have been thinking about it since at least the beginning of September. 

As a general rule the first choice, if possible and practical should be to clean up what you have messed up. Seems like it is at least possible to fix some of the cars.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

dmorrow said:


> I am sure VW has offered all kinds of possible solutions, they have been thinking about it since at least the beginning of September.
> 
> As a general rule the first choice, if possible and practical should be to clean up what you have messed up. Seems like it is at least possible to fix some of the cars.


a solar farm or something would keep giving back well after a lot of the cars have left the road


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

jnm2.0t said:


> a solar farm or something would keep giving back well after a lot of the cars have left the road


Doesn't do much for the people that were conned into buying a car that was sold as a "Clean Diesel". 

I would be interested in how most of them would feel about getting a picture showing a bunch of solar panels and it saying -

"Sorry for getting screwed over by VW, they had the ability to fix or buy back your car but VW and the government ran the numbers and solar panels in Arizona made better financial sense. It will all work out equal in about 20 years, not really for you but the planet earth as a whole".


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

dmorrow said:


> Doesn't do much for the people that were conned into buying a car that was sold as a "Clean Diesel".
> 
> I would be interested in how most of them would feel about getting a picture showing a bunch of solar panels and it saying -
> 
> "Sorry for getting screwed over by VW, they had the ability to fix or buy back your car but VW and the government ran the numbers and solar panels in Arizona made better financial sense. It will all work out equal in about 20 years, not really for you but the planet earth as a whole".


That's right.. it's about free money at the end of the day and not what's best for the environment.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

caj1 said:


> That's right.. it's about free money at the end of the day and not what's best for the environment.


Then..... you're anti-buy-back then?


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

dmorrow said:


> Doesn't do much for the people that were conned into buying a car that was sold as a "Clean Diesel".
> 
> I would be interested in how most of them would feel about getting a picture showing a bunch of solar panels and it saying -
> 
> "Sorry for getting screwed over by VW, they had the ability to fix or buy back your car but VW and the government ran the numbers and solar panels in Arizona made better financial sense. It will all work out equal in about 20 years, not really for you but the planet earth as a whole".


What's basis would there be to compensate you for? Is it burning more fuel so costing you more? No. Diminished value from bad press? Eh, here's a giftcard. 
If they offset the emissions then is it polluting more? Locally maybe but they can spread their greening solutions out, nobody but you said it has to all be in one place like Arizona. Hell it could even be a little boost to the local economies to work on it.
If the EPA and states allow them to continue to operate without modification and allow them to be bought and sold like any other car then what's the financial impact to owners? Nothing.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

dmorrow said:


> Doesn't do much for the people that were conned into buying a car that was sold as a "Clean Diesel".
> 
> I would be interested in how most of them would feel about getting a picture showing a bunch of solar panels and it saying -
> 
> "Sorry for getting screwed over by VW, they had the ability to fix or buy back your car but VW and the government ran the numbers and solar panels in Arizona made better financial sense. It will all work out equal in about 20 years, not really for you but the planet earth as a whole".



So, you're pissed that the car isn't really environmentally friendly. But you're also pissed that the outcome of the lawsuit from it all is environmentally friendly?


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

jnm2.0t said:


> Why doesn't VW just offer to fix the solution by some offsetting other beneficial project like solar farms or wind plants or something? Kinda of a carbon credit like sorta thing.


That may end up being part of the deal, but from a legal standpoint that's too much of a slap on the wrist. What incentive is there for Automakers not to cheat if the only penalty is to donate a Million Dollars towards green energy? Not to mention the big issue is not so much a pollution as the blatant efforts to cheat the system and hide it. 

They are already promising to build more EV's and shifting away from Diesel (not really a concession since the testing that exposed them spawned more testing that more or less proved that all diesels cheating or not were way worse polluters than anyone could have imagined in the real world.)


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

JitteryJoe said:


> That may end up being part of the deal, but from a legal standpoint that's too much of a slap on the wrist. What incentive is there for Automakers not to cheat if the only penalty is to donate a Million Dollars towards green energy? Not to mention the big issue is not so much a pollution as the blatant efforts to cheat the system and hide it.
> 
> They are already promising to build more EV's and shifting away from Diesel (not really a concession since the testing that exposed them spawned more testing that more or less proved that all diesels cheating or not were way worse polluters than anyone could have imagined in the real world.)


Oh it will not be cheap for them to do something so large a scale as to offset this mess and they can still pay fines and penalties. As a local citizen I'd rather the investment come to my community by way of big solar projects or something rather than go to an EPA coffer which is just handed over to the general fund afaik. If the financial impact is the same I'd vote it that way every time. It's also an easier fix than trying to retrofit existing cars, figuring out owner compensation levels, or junking cars which is a total waste of resources.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Abengoa energy is (I believe) the largest solar energy provider in the US now and they just declared bankruptcy and may default on up to $10 billion in US loans. VWoA could be asked to pay for those loans in order to keep the solar plants operational. That would be fair, plus VW would end up owning $10 billion worth of solar farms, which is cool.


----------



## tsimitpo (Jul 22, 2014)

julianv said:


> As of now, the cars are legal to drive. The concern for many of us is: will our cars still be legal to drive in the future, if we refuse to comply with a government-mandated recall fix or buyback. As I surmised in an earlier post (and confirmed in the EPA page that you referenced), this may depend on state or local government regulations.
> 
> In WA state, where I live, TDIs were exempted from bi-annual emissions testing, maybe because the state regulators trusted the EPA tests and believed that these really were "clean" diesels. Now that the EPA data is known to be bogus, the state may withdraw the exemption and require owners to bring the cars in for testing, or to show proof that they have had the recall fix done. WA cars which don't meet those conditions are likely to lose their registration. If early TDIs are unfixable and designated for buyback, and the owners refuse the buyback, will the state allow the cars to be re-registered? We don't know.


There might be a distinction made between "legal to drive" and "compliant". Since the car may be determined to have never been compliant, WA may decide it does not qualify for the exemptions they give vehicles that are more than 25 years old or have had more than $150 put into them trying to "repair" them. Personally, I suspect owners of these cars will not be punished for non-compliance and I also don't believe the state will spend a ton of money attempting to test the cars.

Instead, I believe there will be a hefty fine sought from the manufacturer for fraud similar to what was done to Johnson & Johnson for their Baby Powder causing a cancer death where they got slapped for $72M but nobody goes to jail. I tend to believe consumers will be taken care of because VW sold these vehicles fraudulently - although there's no evidence to my knowledge that any deaths have been caused.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Who else got an airbag letter today?


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

atomicalex said:


> Who else got an airbag letter today?


got mine a week or two ago. second one i believe.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

atomicalex said:


> Who else got an airbag letter today?


I got one yesterday. No fix available yet.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Uberhare said:


> No fix available yet.


WHAT?!?!? They've had since September already!


----------



## rick8018 (Jan 3, 2001)

atomicalex said:


> Who else got an airbag letter today?


Me.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

jnm2.0t said:


> What's basis would there be to compensate you for? Is it burning more fuel so costing you more? No. Diminished value from bad press? Eh, here's a giftcard.
> If they offset the emissions then is it polluting more? Locally maybe but they can spread their greening solutions out, nobody but you said it has to all be in one place like Arizona. Hell it could even be a little boost to the local economies to work on it.
> If the EPA and states allow them to continue to operate without modification and allow them to be bought and sold like any other car then what's the financial impact to owners? Nothing.


Where did I say anyone should be compensated? They sold people cars that weren't what they were advertised as, broke the law and pollute more than they should. I think there is a legitimate case for them to either fix the cars and if they can't fix them look at getting them off the road, essentially fixing the problem they created. It seems like others agree with me and this is the way they are headed.



JitteryJoe said:


> That may end up being part of the deal, but from a legal standpoint that's too much of a slap on the wrist. What incentive is there for Automakers not to cheat if the only penalty is to donate a Million Dollars towards green energy? Not to mention the big issue is not so much a pollution as the blatant efforts to cheat the system and hide it.
> 
> They are already promising to build more EV's and shifting away from Diesel (not really a concession since the testing that exposed them spawned more testing that more or less proved that all diesels cheating or not were way worse polluters than anyone could have imagined in the real world.)


X2, the idea that if you break the law and get caught, just buy enough solar panels to offset the extra pollution you created would have companies just running the numbers on the cost of panels and the odds of being caught. Company figures out that dumping chemicals in a lake equals "X" number of panels and the chances of getting caught at 10% and simple calculations say the smart financial decision is to move forward with dumping. The fear of possible jail time, fines and having to clean up the lake are what keep them from doing it.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

dmorrow said:


> X2, the idea that if you break the law and get caught, just buy enough solar panels to offset the extra pollution you created would have companies just running the numbers on the cost of panels and the odds of being caught.


I'ma let you in on a little secret... companies _already _do the math on the odds of getting caught and the potential fines when making these decisions. Having an $xB fine or an $xB other compensation package is still an $xB levy against them, where the money goes is irrelevant.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

jnm2.0t said:


> I'ma let you in on a little secret... companies _already _do the math on the odds of getting caught and the potential fines when making these decisions. Having an $xB fine or an $xB other compensation package is still an $xB levy against them, where the money goes is irrelevant.


I am going to let you in on something. VW is about to find out the calculations they ran when making these choices aren't going to work out in their favor. 

At what point do you think they will recover to August 2015 levels for profit, car sales and public opinion?

EDIT: Also, if you understand this why would you be in favor of them just writing a check and pushing it all under the rug? Essentially they are caught fined and everything is over.


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

Silly_me said:


> WHAT?!?!? They've had since September already!


They at least know how to fix the issue. There are just some many vehicles that need parts they are unable to keep up. 
I have been waiting for almost 2 years for my airbag to be replace. I need to call the dealer again and see where I am on the list.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

dmorrow said:


> I am going to let you in on something. VW is about to find out the calculations they ran when making these choices aren't going to work out in their favor.


Okay. But so what? Doesn't have any relevance to where the money goes.



dmorrow said:


> At what point do you think they will recover to August 2015 levels for profit, car sales and public opinion?


I have never contemplated it and I don't care either, and it too is not relevant to how their payout gets structured.



dmorrow said:


> EDIT: Also, if you understand this why would you be in favor of them just writing a check and pushing it all under the rug? Essentially they are caught fined and everything is over.


Funding $10B (for argument sake) in green projects is probably MORE ongoing and in the public face than writing a check to a government agency which ends up in the US Treasury general fund.

Wouldn't you rather your local community get some long term benefit from the money instead of it ending up in a black hole to be spent on who knows what? That's the worst outcome, a VW fine ostensibly buying a fighter jet.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

jnm2.0t said:


> Okay. But so what? Doesn't have any relevance to where the money goes.


You pointed out they run calculations to decide on whether to break the law or not and I pointed out they miscalculated.




jnm2.0t said:


> Funding $10B (for argument sake) in green projects is probably MORE ongoing and in the public face than writing a check to a government agency which ends up in the US Treasury general fund.
> 
> Wouldn't you rather your local community get some long term benefit from the money instead of it ending up in a black hole to be spent on who knows what? That's the worst outcome, a VW fine ostensibly buying a fighter jet.


If VW was required to build solar panels they would turn it into "VW is saving the planet, one panel at time" put VW logos all over it, publicize the great things they are doing and use it to their favor, it would be in our faces for a long time but for the wrong reasons. Cost would still be there but no reason they can't see a huge benefit also. It could be the next great VW marketing campaign. 

Can you tell me how many solar panels are needed to offset 500k cars driving for the next 10 years (some less, some more, but on average)? Reality is average person can't either so any large number looks like VW is going out of their way to help us out. 2-3 years from now they are still pointing out the great panels they built for us and most have forgotten that the cars are still driving around polluting as they have from the day they were built.

Chances of these panels or whatever they did being in my community is close to zero and if the money that goes to the government ends up buying a fighter jet that was going to be purchased anyway I don't see a problem with VW buying it instead of us.


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

dmorrow said:


> If VW was required to build solar panels they would turn it into "VW is saving the planet, one panel at time" put VW logos all over it, publicize the great things they are doing and use it to their favor, it would be in our faces for a long time but for the wrong reasons. Cost would still be there but no reason they can't see a huge benefit also. It could be the next great VW marketing campaign.


So what? Let them take the green thing by the horns and run with it. I mean if that's the outcome why would you care? Punishment doesn't have to be bad bad bad go sit in the corner and think about what you've done, you can turn it into a positive behavior change, which is really the best outcome for all involved. As for the rest of your post, how many panels? I dont know, and it doesn't have to only be solar panels, you're missing the whole point.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

jnm2.0t said:


> So what? Let them take the green thing by the horns and run with it. I mean if that's the outcome why would you care? Punishment doesn't have to be bad bad bad go sit in the corner and think about what you've done, you can turn it into a positive behavior change, which is really the best outcome for all involved. As for the rest of your post, how many panels? I dont know, and it doesn't have to only be solar panels, you're missing the whole point.


A big part of the "calculated risk" when doing something like this is the consequences of public perception. Audi's "unintended acceleration" issue of the mid 90's took them many years to get past and the problem didn't even exist. This huge financial lost won't be easy to see but it will be big.

What's your plan for the people that thought they bought a "Clean Diesel"? Tough luck we are building solar panels? Generally when I don't get what I paid for I have the ability to get my money back, the problem fixed or I can sue.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

dmorrow said:


> A big part of the "calculated risk" when doing something like this is the consequences of public perception. Audi's "unintended acceleration" issue of the mid 90's took them many years to get past and the problem didn't even exist. This huge financial lost won't be easy to see but it will be big.
> 
> What's your plan for the people that thought they bought a "Clean Diesel"? Tough luck we are building solar panels? Generally when I don't get what I paid for I have the ability to get my money back, the problem fixed or I can sue.


Everyone who bought a Clean Diesel should get a 6kW solar system installed on their house.


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> Abengoa energy is (I believe) the largest solar energy provider in the US now and they just declared bankruptcy and may default on up to $10 billion in US loans. VWoA could be asked to pay for those loans in order to keep the solar plants operational. That would be fair, plus VW would end up owning $10 billion worth of solar farms, which is cool.


They will just go under again without more taxpayer money
VW could give them $5 Billion and they would go under in 30 months
How many solar companies have made it?


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

atomicalex said:


> Who else got an airbag letter today?


:wave:

Wednesday


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

dmorrow said:


> A big part of the "calculated risk" when doing something like this is the consequences of public perception. Audi's "unintended acceleration" issue of the mid 90's took them many years to get past and the problem didn't even exist. This huge financial lost won't be easy to see but it will be big.
> 
> What's your plan for the people that thought they bought a "Clean Diesel"? Tough luck we are building solar panels? Generally when I don't get what I paid for I have the ability to get my money back, the problem fixed or I can sue.


Again punishment is **** behavior modification. If, in your world where VW gets huge benefits from sanctions that have them going green then others will take notice and seek that out on their own. Think about a classroom where there is a kid acting up. You can a) stuff them in the corner and issue detention or b) come up with something constructive to do that others take note of and want to get involved with too. I know I view for constructive behavior modification rather than a spanking.

As for your law suit against vw have fun, there's no economic loss if the cars are fully saleable and driveable.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

cpermd said:


> They will just go under again without more taxpayer money
> VW could give them $5 Billion and they would go under in 30 months
> How many solar companies have made it?


Although Solyndra and Solana sound very similar and both have in common that they were soloar companies created with massive government loans followed by going bankrupt, there is a difference: Solyndra was trying to produce and sell solar panels and nobody was buying. They went bankrupt as a completely worthless company. Solana is a _completed and operational_ solar energy plant which produced over 718 gw/h of energy last year and may average 750+ if it were run by a non-bankrupt parent company. The financials for Solana are actually just fine if you simply bring in a new owner that has it paid off, rather than trying to service billions of dollars in DoE loans.

I know a lot of people hate the idea of letting VW pay money for green energy and be done with it, but if we allowed DoE to foreclose on Abengoa and transfer assets to VW with VW paying off the loans, it would actually be an easy deal for VW because it would actually be turning a profit, since it's then paid off. Solana went under because their parent company couldn't pay both operational costs and the massive construction loans at the same time. VW, if they paid the loans and took ownership, would only be paying maintenance, no loans, thus they would be profitable and get the bragging rights of producing more solar energy than any other automaker by miles and miles. I know Tesla has a lot of solar power generation, but it certainly pales in comparison to the *three square miles* of solar power plant that Solana covers in the Arizona desert.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> I know a lot of people hate the idea of letting VW pay money for green energy and be done with it, but if we allowed DoE to foreclose on Abengoa and transfer assets to VW with VW paying off the loans, it would actually be an easy deal for VW because it would actually be turning a profit, since it's then paid off.


Even VW would rather pay out 20 billion than be strapped to a losing horse


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> Solana went under because their parent company couldn't pay both operational costs and the massive construction loans at the same time. VW, if they paid the loans and took ownership, would only be paying maintenance, no loans, thus they would be profitable and get the bragging rights of producing more solar energy than any other automaker by miles and miles. I know Tesla has a lot of solar power generation, but it certainly pales in comparison to the *three square miles* of solar power plant that Solana covers in the Arizona desert.


So how does VW pay off the loans, take ownership and pay maintenance and be profitable
The numbers do NOT work financially, hydrocarbon electricity is still so much cheaper
Else Solana would not have sunk

Got it 

But back to "DieselGate"
I predict October before we know anything

CP


----------



## WhineMCABasket2.0t (Oct 2, 2005)

cpermd said:


> They will just go under again without more taxpayer money
> VW could give them $5 Billion and they would go under in 30 months
> How many solar companies have made it?


you're talking about solar companies trying to turn a profit. it's really tough to keep ahead of profits when energy costs aren't going up as fast as solar panel prices are coming down. you make this massive investment in a solar array that in a few years you could get for a significant amount less.

what I would be referring to is a simple purchase of solar panels for YourLocalEnergyCo. That isn't an investment that VW needs to keep operating. Turn x% of all energy in the country to solar.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

cpermd said:


> So how does VW pay off the loans, take ownership and pay maintenance and be profitable
> The numbers do NOT work financially, hydrocarbon electricity is still so much cheaper
> Else Solana would not have sunk
> 
> ...


Oh, maybe because they have to pay the billions anyway, so that money is a sunk cost. They can pay it as fines or they could (theoretically) pay it to buy this company. That money is a wash.

Now you're operating a company with no loans, so you're only paying employees, maintenance and taxes. I wish I could suddenly wipe off my bank loans for my business. I could reinvest and get some pretty sweet machinery to further lower my costs and increase our product range. It would be huuuuuge. The same would hold true for VW if this were to take place.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

jnm2.0t said:


> Again punishment is **** behavior modification. If, in your world where VW gets huge benefits from sanctions that have them going green then others will take notice and seek that out on their own. Think about a classroom where there is a kid acting up. You can a) stuff them in the corner and issue detention or b) come up with something constructive to do that others take note of and want to get involved with too. I know I view for constructive behavior modification rather than a spanking.
> 
> As for your law suit against vw have fun, there's no economic loss if the cars are fully saleable and driveable.


Again, sold as "Clean Diesel's" but weren't, didn't meet federal regulations but were sold under the premise they did. In addition VW new none of them did and broke the law when they sold them. The idea that you can only sue someone if there is economic loss is purely your idea. 

I'm just happy that the courts don't follow your plan of requiring people to spend money on charities or environmental causes when they are caught breaking laws.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Btw don't anyone hold your breath on the airbags - Takata still hasn't figured out how to make one that doesnt have the potential to explode and go bad - I had the recall letter sent out 18 months ago on my 2003 BMW X5 and no solution in sight yet - dieselgate will have come and gone by the time they figure out the airbags lol


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

spockcat said:


> Everyone who bought a Clean Diesel should get a 6kW solar system installed on their house.


and a tesla powerwall


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Does anyone have a guesstimate of how they will determine pre-scandal value? And how would current mileage factor in?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Mazda 3s said:


> Does anyone have a guesstimate of how they will determine pre-scandal value? And how would current mileage factor in?


What VW believes: Tree Fiddy

What TCL believe: MSRP + 20% pain and suffering

In reality: somewhere between A and B.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

sorry if this is old... fixes for 3.0l

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-fix-for-tainted-3-liter-audi-porsche-diesels


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Btw don't anyone hold your breath on the airbags - Takata still hasn't figured out how to make one that doesnt have the potential to explode and go bad - I had the recall letter sent out 18 months ago on my 2003 BMW X5 and no solution in sight yet - dieselgate will have come and gone by the time they figure out the airbags lol


Haven't received my letter about the airbag yet.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

AJB said:


> Haven't received my letter about the airbag yet.


If you have a JSW I'm 99% sure yours is on the list as the airbags were all same (i.e. no regular Golf airbag and GTI airbag is different)

The plus is that if you do a GTI airbag and steering wheel swap you won't have an airbag thats recalled LOL - We haven't gotten our letter yet I dont think but I know the JSW is on the list, VW is trying to soften the blow by delaying sending Takata recall letters to dieselgate owners as long as they can hahahahaah:laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

Ricky Bobby said:


> If you have a JSW I'm 99% sure yours is on the list as the airbags were all same (i.e. no regular Golf airbag and GTI airbag is different)
> 
> The plus is that if you do a GTI airbag and steering wheel swap you won't have an airbag thats recalled LOL - We haven't gotten our letter yet I dont think but I know the JSW is on the list, VW is trying to soften the blow by delaying sending Takata recall letters to dieselgate owners as long as they can hahahahaah:laugh::laugh::laugh:


My airbag light is on because of a wiring issue on my passenger seat so I'll just leave that on for the time being :laugh:


----------



## Jason4 (Sep 15, 2001)

I have the airbag recall and a clockspring recall that I got at about the same time that Dieselgate broke out. Plus the previously ignored "software update for improved emissions". I also have a Takata airbag in my truck. Not pumped about that.

Why is everybody so hard up for the buyback if they're as interested in the environment as they claim to be? 

My environmental conscience feels bad about taking a bunch of cars off the road that are in the middle of their service life and disposing of them. Either they are going to get crushed and scrapped or they'll get shipped to another market and sold. I don't like the scrapping idea because it's just that much more energy and materials that are needed to replace this fleet of cars and I don't like the reallocation to a new market but as much as I wish it were true the air wherever they end up will end up back in my corner of the globe at some point anyways. I don't see a buyback fixing any of the environmental damage. 

I'd be happy to take my goodwill money to cover the lost value of my car since resale values were one of the metrics I considered when I paid more for a TDI but I'd be happy if the rest of the money went into developing renewable resources in the US.

I don't honestly know what I'll replace my TDI with that will handle the 20,000 miles/year with such low fuel consumption (and inherently low carbon emissions) for my driving style. I'll probably sell my car back since I was iced (intercooler issue) and don't trust the engine after that and I'll commute in my 3/4T pickup until I find a suitable replacement. That's not really a win for the environment.


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

I came expecting a new round of rants, speculation, opinions, outrage, cynicism and humor following reports that there may be "fix" in the works for the 3.0 V6 TDI. Disappointed! Possible conclusions:

1. The thread is slowing down because we're all worn out. VW's drag-it-out strategy is working. 

2. We're all been-there, done-that...another speculated fix leaked. Ho hum. See "1."

3. No one gives a **** about the 3.0. Only fatcats drive them anyway and they aren't Teslas.

If anyone wants to play...

Leaked "fix" involves software change that will affect how emissions are controlled on startup. Catalytic converter might need replacement as well. Probably no option to opt-out of the fix, so for we 3.0 owners, are we satisfied?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

*Volkswagen investigates itself: concludes management did nothing wrong*



USA Today said:


> Preliminary results of an internal investigation into Volkswagen Group's emissions scandal have revealed no serious violations by past or present top executives, the company said Wednesday.
> 
> The German automaker's board said in a statement that although the investigation is not yet complete, an internal probe has uncovered no "serious and manifest breaches of duty on the part of any serving or former" top executives.
> 
> ...


----------



## YikeGrymon (Sep 12, 2005)

AZGolf said:


> *Volkswagen investigates itself: concludes management did nothing wrong*


2 + 2 = 5, baby.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Bird67 said:


> I came expecting a new round of rants, speculation, opinions, outrage, cynicism and humor following reports that there may be "fix" in the works for the 3.0 V6 TDI. Disappointed! Possible conclusions:
> 
> 1. The thread is slowing down because we're all worn out. VW's drag-it-out strategy is working.
> 
> ...


yes. as long as the vehicle they sold me meets the legal requirement for emissions, I'm fine. if there is a minor affect on mileage and performance I'm not worried, but if it is more than negligible, I'd like to be compensated.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Yeah, that's like the OPEC backed study saying Electric cars won't be a threat to ICEs until at least 2040  :laugh:


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> *Volkswagen investigates itself: concludes management did nothing wrong*


My shocked face


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

jnm2.0t said:


> So what? Let them take the green thing by the horns and run with it. I mean if that's the outcome why would you care? Punishment doesn't have to be bad bad bad go sit in the corner and think about what you've done, you can turn it into a positive behavior change, which is really the best outcome for all involved. As for the rest of your post, how many panels? I dont know, and it doesn't have to only be solar panels, you're missing the whole point.


Terrific post, thank you.


----------



## BeBop! (Jun 18, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> *Volkswagen investigates itself: concludes management did nothing wrong*


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

spockcat said:


> Everyone who bought a Clean Diesel should get a 6kW solar system installed on their house.


This would only be feasible for people in the lower states who actually benefit from PV systems. Up here in WA State solar power generation is not advantageous due to many things but mostly due to inadequate direct light from the sun (wrong angle) and limited sunny days, especially in the winter. The payback on PV up here doesn't work out because electricity is so cheap (hydro power). 


VW....just send me a fat check and I'll be satisfied. I'll use it to remove my emissions crap out of the car.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Uberhare said:


> This would only be feasible for people in the lower states who actually benefit from PV systems. Up here in WA State solar power generation is not advantageous due to many things but mostly due to inadequate direct light from the sun (wrong angle) and limited sunny days, especially in the winter. The payback on PV up here doesn't work out because electricity is so cheap (hydro power).
> 
> 
> VW....just send me a fat check and I'll be satisfied. I'll use it to remove my emissions crap out of the car.


I have enough roof area on my house for the system they would owe my son (an apartment dweller at this time) and the system they owe you. Thanks.


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

You'reDrunk said:


> yes. as long as the vehicle they sold me meets the legal requirement for emissions, I'm fine. if there is a minor affect on mileage and performance I'm not worried, but if it is more than negligible, I'd like to be compensated.


X2. I have skepticism that the "fix" will be so benign, but I'm willing to wait to find out. As if there was a choice...


----------



## FuelInMyVeins (Feb 8, 2012)

Silly_me said:


> What VW believes: Tree Fiddy
> 
> What TCL believe: MSRP + 20% pain and suffering
> 
> In reality: somewhere between A and B.


:laugh::laugh:


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

rich! said:


> sorry if this is old... fixes for 3.0l
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-fix-for-tainted-3-liter-audi-porsche-diesels


I'm a bit confused on this. Either I missed it or the article wasn't clear.

I do get that there was a device used on these that wasn't disclosed to the state of CA and therefore that may be illegal.

But if said device, now disclosed/discovered, works both while during a test plus also while on the road, is there really a fix necessary? Shouldn't VW be penalized for the failure to disclose only? Or is it still the case that this device works selectively during an emissions testing cycle only?


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

gti_matt said:


> I'm a bit confused on this. Either I missed it or the article wasn't clear.
> 
> I do get that there was a device used on these that wasn't disclosed to the state of CA and therefore that may be illegal.
> 
> But if said device, now disclosed/discovered, works both while during a test plus also while on the road, is there really a fix necessary? Shouldn't VW be penalized for the failure to disclose only? Or is it still the case that this device works selectively during an emissions testing cycle only?


That's what VW claimed early on. It turned out that the 3.0 ran in a certain operating mode from start-up until one second after the prescribed length of the Federal Test Procedure, then changed to a different operating mode that had higher real-world emissions. Tsk, tsk.

Every engine has special cold-start operating modes that differ from warmed-up closed-loop operation, but (A) they're disclosed as an AECD, and (B) the duration of the cold-start mode is no longer than it actually has to be, not one second longer than the test procedure, and (C) typically the emissions are lower AFTER the cold start mode is finished, not before ...


----------



## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

JitteryJoe said:


> Yeah, that's like the OPEC backed study saying Electric cars won't be a threat to ICEs until at least 2040  :laugh:


They won't be until the price is drastically reduced and they have a 500 mile cruising range........


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

You'reDrunk said:


> yes. as long as the vehicle they sold me meets the legal requirement for emissions, I'm fine. if there is a minor affect on mileage and performance I'm not worried, but if it is more than negligible, I'd like to be compensated.


I think most owners would agree on that. Although, last time I mentioned something along those lines, I was accused of being a VW mole, so there is that. :screwy:


----------



## ajd187 (Feb 6, 2012)

AZGolf said:


> *Volkswagen investigates itself: concludes management did nothing wrong*


Looks like VW used the same investigation techniques as the typical American police force doing an internal investigation.
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

You'reDrunk said:


> yes. as long as the vehicle they sold me meets the legal requirement for emissions, I'm fine. if there is a minor affect on mileage and performance I'm not worried, but if it is more than negligible, I'd like to be compensated.


That's a totally reasonable response. :beer:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

YikeGrymon said:


> 2 + 2 = 5, baby.


No, in this case it was 2+2=0.




All I can say is :facepalm: about the whole situation.


----------



## Slipstream (Feb 8, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> *Volkswagen investigates itself: concludes management did nothing wrong*


:laugh::facepalm: 

I would like to say this kind of tone-deaf, "we know what we're doing" attitude is surprising coming from VW, but it really isn't.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Sporin said:


> That's a totally reasonable response. :beer:


pretty much how I've been about this whole thing to date.

I'm pissed they lied, but that's nothing new under the sun.

they've already paid me and others $1K .....I'm sure they will be more than fair with the owner's or they'll face the wrath of the litigious American society.....their only mistake is they got caught.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

You'reDrunk said:


> their only mistake is they got caught.


It's not a mistake when it's done on purpose.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

This thread went 3 days without someone posting what VW should do? :what:


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

what's the next date for an update? I think my front strut mounts are starting to go..


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

aj4066 said:


> This thread went 3 days without someone posting what VW should do? :what:


VW did just what it planned all along, stall until it's a non-story because everyone's been beaten down waiting and then do as little as possible. All while assuming trotting out the same staid product will somehow start selling again and the ship magically rights itself. opcorn:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

benjaminobscene said:


> what's the next date for an update? I think my front strut mounts are starting to go..


June 21.


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

AZGolf said:


> June 21.


thanks


----------



## cloud09 (Jan 14, 2011)

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/german-state-refused-clear-vw-150558652.html
Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) shareholder Lower Saxony wanted to withhold its backing for the carmaker's top management at a supervisory board meeting but relented to avoid further damaging the firm, a source close to the German federal state said. Representatives of the Lower Saxony government, which has a 20 percent stake in VW, raised their objections last week when the supervisory board debated whether to endorse the managers' actions in 2015 - the year the company was engulfed in a scandal over the rigging of U.S. emissions tests.

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

^ They weren't sure whether to back the company or not but did because not doing so would cause further damage to the stock value so instead they leak to the news that the only reason they're backing them is because not doing so could hurt the company?


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> June 21.



I wasn't are of this meeting:



> Judge Breyer has scheduled another hearing for May 19 to check on the status of finalizing the negotiations, and to make sure the case remains on track.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

cloud09 said:


> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/german-state-refused-clear-vw-150558652.html
> Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) shareholder Lower Saxony wanted to withhold its backing for the carmaker's top management at a supervisory board meeting but relented to avoid further damaging the firm, a source close to the German federal state said. Representatives of the Lower Saxony government, which has a 20 percent stake in VW, raised their objections last week when the supervisory board debated whether to endorse the managers' actions in 2015 - the year the company was engulfed in a scandal over the rigging of U.S. emissions tests.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk


meh.
who cares if they support what the company did in 2015 or not?

VW has been either cheating or working on HOW to cheat, if we go by affected cars being 2010 model and newer, since about 2008-2009 time frame right?

did lower saxony endorse VW's actions in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014...? if so they have already endorsed the company environment in which the cheating was happening. 
but i guess the general public doesn't think like that. they just see the scandal break in 2015, and think THAT is the when/time that matters.


----------



## tsimitpo (Jul 22, 2014)

Chilcoot said:


> It's not a mistake when it's done on purpose.


I don't follow you - seems to me one could do something on purpose (with intent) that stems from an error in judgment.


----------



## csr67 (Oct 24, 2003)

I just got a letter yesterday from VWOA and their CA "Testing Center" in Oxnard. They'd like to offer me a $75 visa gift card if I'll let them come to me and download vehicle data from my 2016 Touareg Tdi.... They say in their effort to "constantly improve performance" they're doing this study. I'm not sure how I feel about this. Could it somehow be magically related to their current "fix" for the 3.0 Tdi's??? I think I'll pass on the offer for now and let them figure it out on their own. Last thing I want is them changing my ECU and not telling me about it....


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

csr67 said:


> I just got a letter yesterday from VWOA and their CA "Testing Center" in Oxnard. They'd like to offer me a $75 visa gift card if I'll let them come to me and download vehicle data from my 2016 Touareg Tdi.... They say in their effort to "constantly improve performance" they're doing this study. I'm not sure how I feel about this. Could it somehow be magically related to their current "fix" for the 3.0 Tdi's??? I think I'll pass on the offer for now and let them figure it out on their own. Last thing I want is them changing my ECU and not telling me about it....


IMO, i think that this is VW trying to figure it out.
they need real world info. the best/cheapest way to do that is to get the info from the vehicles on the road now.

i would let them give me $75 for a few minutes of my time.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

csr67 said:


> I just got a letter yesterday from VWOA and their CA "Testing Center" in Oxnard. They'd like to offer me a $75 visa gift card if I'll let them come to me and download vehicle data from my 2016 Touareg Tdi.... They say in their effort to "constantly improve performance" they're doing this study. I'm not sure how I feel about this. Could it somehow be magically related to their current "fix" for the 3.0 Tdi's??? I think I'll pass on the offer for now and let them figure it out on their own. Last thing I want is them changing my ECU and not telling me about it....


And here i thought it was Edmung Cheng the whole time, my bad boss. He came out with a t-reg, scanned my ECU and let me know thanks, really nice guy. This was probably 4 years ago with my Golf TDI :thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

ajd187 said:


> Looks like VW used the same investigation techniques as the typical American police force doing an internal investigation.
> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


:laugh:


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

dunhamjr said:


> IMO, i think that this is VW trying to figure it out.
> they need real world info. the best/cheapest way to do that is to get the info from the vehicles on the road now.
> 
> i would let them give me $75 for a few minutes of my time.


Except they aren't even attempting this with the first gen non SCR 2.0 TDI's because its a waste of time :laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Except they aren't even attempting this with the first gen non SCR 2.0 TDI's because its a waste of time :laugh::laugh::laugh:


ok.
but the guy i replied to has a '16 tdi touareg


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

dunhamjr said:


> ok.
> but the guy i replied to has a '16 tdi touareg


No i mean its great and if I had a 3.0 i'd gladly say yes as well, my point is the 3.0's probably are much easier to fix since they already have urea - we've spoke about this in the past but the 1st gen TDI's without urea, and it isn't easily retrofitted, might not be able to feasibly be able to be "fixed" without much modification to the car and adding equipment it wasn't designed for, etc.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

cars.com is reporting the proposal for a fix/buyback is set for June 21, full approval by July 26. We will see how this plays out with extensions and such, but that is pretty definitive. 

https://www.cars.com/articles/how-p...di-before-a-diesel-scandal-fix-1420684624285/

(part of the article)


> As for when that will happen, Volkswagen has announced the framework of a remedy that would let owners choose between selling back the car or having it fixed, plus receiving cash compensation regardless of the choice. A detailed proposal should be announced by June 21, and on July 26 there's a federal hearing scheduled for final approval.
> Read more at https://www.cars.com/articles/how-p...candal-fix-1420684624285/#TRBBVIIBTbImYGXm.99


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

dunhamjr said:


> IMO, i think that this is VW trying to figure it out.
> they need real world info. the best/cheapest way to do that is to get the info from the vehicles on the road now.
> 
> i would let them give me $75 for a few minutes of my time.


yup, this :thumbup:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> yup, this :thumbup:


You got $500 beer money and $500 dealership money for your time, so far. :facepalm:


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> You got $500 beer money and $500 dealership money for your time, so far. :facepalm:


Too bad the dealership doesn't sell beer.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Geesixty said:


> Too bad the dealership doesn't sell beer.


Doesn't VW make Bratwurst? They should sell that at the dealership too 

The local Chevy Superstore allegedly has Coke Freestyle and Starbucks for its customers, I think beer and brats should be a thing at all VW Dealers :thumbup:


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

aj4066 said:


> You got $500 beer money and $500 dealership money for your time, so far. :facepalm:


i didnt get anything, since i dont have a tdi anymore  but im not sure what the face palm was for...


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> cars.com is reporting the proposal for a fix/buyback is set for June 21, full approval by July 26. We will see how this plays out with extensions and such, but that is pretty definitive.
> 
> https://www.cars.com/articles/how-p...di-before-a-diesel-scandal-fix-1420684624285/
> 
> (part of the article)


Thanks for posting and we will see. The article could have made the July 26th date more believable if they had posted a source (maybe this has been posted before and I haven't seen it?) and even then anything headed to a federal hearing has the chance to not be approved or needing more information which then comes with a new deadline.

My guess is even if VW knows exactly what they will do before the June 21st date they still will wait for the day to get here before they announce anything. Number one rule for owing large fines or a huge bill that is coming due is to delay whenever possible to the last possible moment. Then with the buyback/fix plan I expect they will say it will start a few months from then and will be a long, slow process to get them all done.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

dmorrow said:


> My guess is even if VW knows exactly what they will do before the June 21st date they still will wait for the day to get here before they announce anything. Number one rule for owing large fines or a huge bill that is coming due is to delay whenever possible to the last possible moment. Then with the buyback/fix plan I expect they will say it will start a few months from then and will be a long, slow process to get them all done.


...And all the while attrition thins the heard. 

It's toughest for people who want to trade in or have large looming repair bills. - I'm looking squarely at _you_, DSG failures. I can't imagine how pissed I'd be if I had a broken DSG TDI right now.


----------



## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

My biggest concern right now is getting in a accident..


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

oldschool eighty8 said:


> My biggest concern right now is getting in a accident..


I can see that, total car and insurance give fair market value, the whole VW plan isn't their problem. Your biggest concern also happens to be the best financial outcome for VW. If the car no longer exists they won't be fixing or buying it back.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

dmorrow said:


> I can see that, total car and insurance give fair market value, the whole VW plan isn't their problem. Your biggest concern also happens to be the best financial outcome for VW. If the car no longer exists they won't be fixing or buying it back.


x2 - better check with your broker to be sure you put the vehicle on agreed value or gap insurance is on your policy if its financed


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

oldschool eighty8 said:


> My biggest concern right now is getting in a accident..


You should have GAP insurance since it's a fairly new car. Especially if you bought it brand new AND through VW. They don't sell anything without GAP on it, as far as I know. I'm kind of hoping I get in an accident, since the "buy back" value is going to be crap and I'm going to owe money still unless I use the $5k or whatever they pay out to the customers after all said and done. So at this point, getting the car totaled is a better option really. At least in my case.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

wannabeeuroTR said:


> You should have GAP insurance since it's a fairly new car. Especially if you bought it brand new AND through VW. They don't sell anything without GAP on it, as far as I know. I'm kind of hoping I get in an accident, since the "buy back" value is going to be crap and I'm going to owe money still unless I use the $5k or whatever they pay out to the customers after all said and done. So at this point, getting the car totaled is a better option really. At least in my case.


GAP covers difference between value and payoff, I'm not sure if maybe that was OP's reason for being fearful of an accident but if his car is paid off GAP won't help. 

Personally I'm fearful because I know that I'll get *far* more from a buy back than I will from insurance.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

this. So much so that we took it off insurance and just keeping it in the garage till the time comes to buy back. Pretty sure my DMF is starting to wear and make noise on startup (rattles back and forth). Front windshield has a crack in it, again-waiting till the last possible moment, and see how much that crack will affect the buyack value, if at all. Ill correct the paint and wax it for them though!, I firmly believe a well cleaned inside and out and waxed car sells much better than something muddy/faded.



oldschool eighty8 said:


> My biggest concern right now is getting in a accident..


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Vicelord said:


> Personally I'm fearful because I know that I'll get *far* more from a buy back than I will from insurance.


i would assume this ^^ as well. if the car is totalled the likelihood of payout from VW probably significantly drops or goes away completely.

so while yeah your loan gets paid off, but now (using made up numbers)... you only get $12k out of the accident instead of more like $20k.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

PolishSasquatch said:


> I firmly believe a well cleaned inside and out and waxed car sells much better than something muddy/faded.


this has definitely helped me when selling private party. very clean car, great pictures in the ad, spell everything properly, etc.
i havent noticed much impact on trade-in values though.


----------



## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

Vicelord said:


> Personally I'm fearful because I know that I'll get *far* more from a buy back than I will from insurance.


This was my point, I have gap coverage.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Vicelord said:


> Personally I'm fearful because I know that I'll get *far* more from a buy back than I will from insurance.





oldschool eighty8 said:


> This was my point


If I were you guys, I'd seriously consider parking in a secure, undisclosed, location, place your keys in a safe deposit box, and hunker down in your safe room praying all the while that your car doesn't get placed in the 'fixed' category


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

PolishSasquatch said:


> this. So much so that we took it off insurance and just keeping it in the garage till the time comes to buy back. *Pretty sure my DMF is starting to wear and make noise on startup (rattles back and forth). Front windshield has a crack in it, again-waiting till the last possible moment, and see how much that crack will affect the buyack value, if at all. Ill correct the paint and wax it for them though!*, I firmly believe a well cleaned inside and out and waxed car sells much better than something muddy/faded.


Sounds like your car was a worthless piece of **** _before_ the diesel scandal.


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

oldschool eighty8 said:


> My biggest concern right now is getting in a accident..


This just in: newly released records from VW indicate that the company has recruited scores of demolition derby and dirt-track race drivers to cause wrecks of TDIs subject to buyback. It has been revealed that VW's purpose in offering the $500/500 Goodwill package was to create a database of targets for its automotive "hit list". Drive carefully, people...


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Bird67 said:


> This just in: newly released records from VW indicate that the company has recruited scores of demolition derby and dirt-track race drivers to cause wrecks of TDIs subject to buyback. It has been revealed that VW's purpose in offering the $500/500 Goodwill package was to create a database of targets for its automotive "hit list". Drive carefully, people...


Breaking news, Bird. VW has recruited Mustang drivers to ease their way into this demolition derby. And they're even preloading VW's equipped with navigation with directions to their local 'Cars and Coffee' meets. Tragic stuff. Now to Ollie for the weather. Ollie?


----------



## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> If I were you guys, I'd seriously consider parking in a secure, undisclosed, location, place your keys in a safe deposit box, and hunker down in your safe room praying all the while that your car doesn't get placed in the 'fixed' category



No kidding... I almost got side swiped by an old lady a couple weeks ago. 
Unfortunately I have no choice but to drive it 70+ miles a day.


----------



## b0mb3r (Nov 9, 2006)

dunhamjr said:


> i would assume this ^^ as well. if the car is totalled the likelihood of payout from VW probably significantly drops or goes away completely.
> 
> so while yeah your loan gets paid off, but now (using made up numbers)... you only get $12k out of the accident instead of more like $20k.



you really think that VW is going to cut me a check for 20K for my Jetta? That would be a pretty awesome deal, because I drove the car for free for six years. The car has some maintenance stuff coming up, brakes, fuel filter, etc. On top of that, my wife has been in a minor fender bender in her car. I am holding off on any repairs or maintenance until VW tells me what they will do with the car. Personally, I am perfectly OK keeping it, if I am allowed to rip out the emissions b.s. (does not work anyway) and replacing it with a straight pipe. Although I suspect that the gov't will make ownership of these cars illegal.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

b0mb3r said:


> you really think that VW is going to cut me a check for 20K for my Jetta? That would be a pretty awesome deal, because I drove the car for free for six years.


not really no. thats why i said made up numbers. each persons situation is different. different options, different model years...etc.

but i am fairly certain you will end up getting more out of VW in a buyback/settlement... than you would from insurance if the car got totalled out.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

oldschool eighty8 said:


> My biggest concern right now is getting in a accident..


True. And at this speed, the settlement will most likely start to pay out some time early 2017, maybe??


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Jack-DE said:


> True. And at this speed, the settlement will most likely start to pay out some time early 2017, maybe??


We're not going to know until late June at the soonest, and possibly not until some time in July. My personal guess is that they'll have the buyback kicked off in Q3 or Q4 2016, and will give a long window, like 12 months for owners to turn in their cars for buyback. There might even be a line of sorts, like you might have to make a reservation with a VW dealer and wait until your number gets called, for example. Still, this is just a guess, but my guess is that they'll be writing checks and buying cars back in Q3/Q4 2016.

As for the cars that actually get fixed? That's a lot harder and I'm not even going to make any guesses on when those people will get their cars fixed. There's obviously a lot more labor involved in actually manufacturing parts, distributing them to dealers, and logging mechanic time to fix cars as opposed to just signing your title over and receiving a check.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

AZGolf said:


> We're not going to know until late June at the soonest, and possibly not until some time in July. My personal guess is that they'll have the buyback kicked off in Q3 or Q4 2016, and will give a long window, like 12 months for owners to turn in their cars for buyback. There might even be a line of sorts, like you might have to make a reservation with a VW dealer and wait until your number gets called, for example. Still, this is just a guess, but my guess is that they'll be writing checks and buying cars back in Q3/Q4 2016.
> 
> As for the cars that actually get fixed? That's a lot harder and I'm not even going to make any guesses on when those people will get their cars fixed. There's obviously a lot more labor involved in actually manufacturing parts, distributing them to dealers, and logging mechanic time to fix cars as opposed to just signing your title over and receiving a check.


There's a status conference tomorrow. Odds are good that an agreement hasn't been reached but it will be interesting to see how the parties advise the Court of the progress of the negotiations.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

We put 60k miles on it in 2 years all trouble free. nothing but fluids and maintenance. I live in MI, 50% of the cars have cracked windshields due to the boulders that fly off the highway. This is the 2nd windshield already. lol, sounds like your mood is a worthless piece of ****. :screwy:



GoHomeBroke said:


> Sounds like your car was a worthless piece of **** _before_ the diesel scandal.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

I wouldn't worry about an Accident. VW will still have to pay those people somehow or their will be another class action. It's not like because the car is totaled that VW magically gets a pass for screwing you over  They will still likely have to cover the difference between the total value and the pre-scandal value that is dertermined plus any other extra if such is determined. Same goes for if you traded or sold the car after, they still have to cover your loss. Just make sure to keep all the paperwork as proof.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Happened this morning:

http://abcnews.go.com/International...ubstantial-progress-volkswagen-talks-39336861

The Latest: Judge: Substantial Progress in Volkswagen Talks



> The Latest on settlement talks in the Volkswagen emissions cheating scandal (all times local):
> 
> 8:55 a.m.
> 
> ...


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

*From Judge Breyer*

Volkswagen Update – Judge Breyer Reports Substantial Progress on Dieselgate Talks

Posted by Tom Young
May 24, 2016 10:18 AM 

0 comments 





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Volkswagen Update – Judge Breyer Reports Substantial Progress on Dieselgate Talks

Posted by Tom Young
May 24, 2016 10:18 AM 


This morning Judge Breyer updated the status of settlement negotiations between VW, the federal government and consumers:
◾Special Master Mueller has been “instrumental” in these negotiations. Judge Breyer praised all attorneys for their cooperation.
◾On April 21 an “Agreement in Principal” was reached.
◾Court has set June 21 as deadline for Consent Decrees (settlements) to be filed by the U.S., FTC and the Plaintiffs’ Steering Committee. “Substantial progress” has been made toward finalizing these agreements.
◾The parties have devoted “extensive daily efforts” to effectuate the agreements and are “on track to meet the June 21 deadline.”
◾Once the June 21 agreements are published, the public and class members (car owners) will have an opportunity to review same on the Court’s web site and provide comment.
◾The objectives for the consent decrees are threefold: ◾VW must buy back or terminate leases of affected 2 liter vehicles or offer a fix.
◾VW must pay “substantial compensation” above the cost of the fix / buy back, to each owner / lessee.
◾VW must contribute to a fund for environmental remediation and otherwise pay for other “green” initiatives.

http://tampa.legalexaminer.com/volk...rts-substantial-progress-on-dieselgate-talks/



VW lawyers are quite happy as they have been quoted in the press as nailing down, finally, the cost for this part of the scandal at about 16.XX billion. ( But we knew this already, as they were quoted after the agreement in principal as having identified the cost structure of the deal. This is when VW announced their results for 2015. All legally required, in Germany. (


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

PolishSasquatch said:


> We put 60k miles on it in 2 years all trouble free. nothing but fluids and maintenance. I live in MI, 50% of the cars have cracked windshields due to the boulders that fly off the highway. This is the 2nd windshield already. lol, sounds like your mood is a worthless piece of ****. :screwy:


My windshield is still the one it came from the factory with. It's been cracked twice, too. Unlike you, I was proactive about fixing it, because I realize the dangers of driving with a cracked windshield. Now, I'm not sure how MI regards cracked windshields legally, but most states usually declare it unsafe for driving. Second windshield or not, 50% of the cars around you or not, your car is still in terrible condition. Maybe it's not the car who's the pos. :wave:


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

lol you are one angry person


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

OP Checking in--

It'd sure be nice if VW would offer current TDI owners more access to buy/lease an E-Golf if their cars are bought back. E-Golfs aren't sold in our state, and the dealer one state away informed us we aren't eligible for any of the current lease deals due to not being residents.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

Numbersix said:


> OP Checking in--
> 
> It'd sure be nice if VW would offer current TDI owners more access to buy/lease an E-Golf if their cars are bought back. E-Golfs aren't sold in our state, and the dealer one state away informed us we aren't eligible for any of the current lease deals due to not being residents.


Haha, nope


----------



## Parklife (Feb 23, 1999)

Numbersix said:


> It'd sure be nice if VW would offer current TDI owners more access to buy/lease an E-Golf if their cars are bought back. E-Golfs aren't sold in our state, and the dealer one state away informed us we aren't eligible for any of the current lease deals due to not being residents.


I hear you on that. An e-Golf would be the perfect solution for my run between Edmonds and Bellevue, but unfortunately we both live in the _wrong_ upwardly mobile liberal enclave in the Pacific Northwest.

I suppose I could be just like _everyone else_ in Bellevue and buy an anonymous Model S. (They really are so ubiquitous as to be cliché by this point.)


----------



## MGQ (Apr 16, 2002)

Parklife said:


> I suppose I could be just like _everyone else_ in Bellevue and buy an anonymous Model S. (They really are so ubiquitous as to be cliché by this point.)


Don't buy it for the image, buy it for the crazy acceleration!


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Parklife said:


> I hear you on that. An e-Golf would be the perfect solution for my run between Edmonds and Bellevue, but unfortunately we both live in the _wrong_ upwardly mobile liberal enclave in the Pacific Northwest.
> 
> I suppose I could be just like _everyone else_ in Bellevue and buy an anonymous Model S. (They really are so ubiquitous as to be cliché by this point.)


The options here are few: 

-i3
-Model S, used?
-Leaf (bleh)
-Volt
-A Prius of some type

No Spark EV, 500e, E-Golf on offer here.


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

GoHomeBroke said:


> My windshield is still the one it came from the factory with. It's been cracked twice, too. Unlike you, I was proactive about fixing it, because I realize the dangers of driving with a cracked windshield. Now, I'm not sure how MI regards cracked windshields legally, but most states usually declare it unsafe for driving. Second windshield or not, 50% of the cars around you or not, your car is still in terrible condition. Maybe it's not the car who's the pos. :wave:


It only fails inspection it if enters a set "box" on the front windshield. At least in LA and TX. 
Mine has a small crack in the left corner that terminates at both ends and has been there for years. It passes inspection every year.


----------



## MGQ (Apr 16, 2002)

do you get the Kia Soul EV?


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

Don't know why some people want to garage their cars in lieu of a buyback announcement. 

I'll continue to drive the piss out of it until then, since I'll get my money's worth and then some.

I mean I only owe 9700 on the car, and that's after almost 4 years of ownership (no money down for 66 months).

Still have the GAP coverage just in case lol


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Took my wife's car (2012 Beetle) to CarMax today to get an appraisal. The salesman claimed that mine was the first lease-end VW he'd seen in a while that had positive equity - the gas models are clearly suffering depressed values as well. Turning over the keys tomorrow, should get a (small) check in return instead of paying the turn-in fee.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

I am having a real difficult time trying to figure out what to replace my bird killer with. Do I keep it? What if VW's offer is too good to pass up? 

-The car is practical for me as a commuter to and from work
-Easily touches 40mpg and I am about to start testing for Green Diesel Engineering; should net 45-50mpg regularly 
-It's in great shape
-Fits my family when I need it to

I have always had cars that provided fun on the weekends; Jeeps and track capable cars and thought about going back to something like that. But at the end of the day, do I replace practical with fun and try to find a happy medium? I really don't find myself at the track anymore but I do miss driving a fun car from time to time. 

GTI, WRX, upcoming Civic Si/ R, 3-series BMW, Focus ST are all capable of 25-30mpg.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Given all the gas hybrid vehicles available that easily hit over 40 mpg, people shouldn't have much difficulty to find something that will meet mpg requirements that most TDI owners want. And plug in hybrid vehicles typically exceed a TDI's mpg by 20% or more.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

I suppose I should say I really have no desire to own a hybrid vehicle. They really don't appeal to me in the slightest bit. 

The Chevy Cruz diesel feels like a huge pile of Chinese **** on the inside


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

I sold my wife's 2015 Golf Sportwagen SE TDI, DSG a week ago to a Toyota dealer for $19K, with 12K miles on the clock. The GSW TDI was a nice car, it got excellent fuel economy, but really was a bad fit for our family needs. We traded for a 2016 4Runner SR5, 4x4. I know not comparing apples to apples, and yes we went from 45 mpgs to 18 lol, however, in the end we couldn't sit around and wait for VW to come to a never ending agreement on what to do with these cars, and we had a few nagging issues with our GSW since new. So we were eger and happy to get $19K for it, and to be done with it all together. Absolutely loving the new 4Runner though, gas mileage be damned. 

I was very very happy to get $19K for this car, considering I have been hearing horror stories of people getting deep into the teens for these cars (2015 models none the less). I'm curious how this deal will pan out for all the dealers that take TDI's in on trade? Will my dealer get a big payout or buyback from VW? or does the person they sell the car to eventually get it? I will say this, Toyota gave us a hard time about trading the car in. They initially said they wouldn't take it, and didn't know what they could do with it. Then some high up manager came out, looked at our near flawless car, made a phone call and came back with the $19K offer. I didn't bat a single eye, as I knew that was a damn good number, and needed to take that before they changed their mind, or figured out more info on the VW scandal.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

Cutandthrust said:


> I sold my wife's 2015 Golf Sportwagen SE TDI, DSG a week ago to a Toyota dealer for $19K, with 12K miles on the clock. The GSW TDI was a nice car, it got excellent fuel economy, but really was a bad fit for our family needs. We traded for a 2016 4Runner SR5, 4x4. I know not comparing apples to apples, and yes we went from 45 mpgs to 18 lol, however, in the end we couldn't sit around and wait for VW to come to a never ending agreement on what to do with these cars, and we had a few nagging issues with our GSW since new. So we were eger and happy to get $19K for it, and to be done with it all together. Absolutely loving the new 4Runner though, gas mileage be damned.
> 
> I was very very happy to get $19K for this car, considering I have been hearing horror stories of people getting deep into the teens for these cars (2015 models none the less). I'm curious how this deal will pan out for all the dealers that take TDI's in on trade? Will my dealer get a big payout or buyback from VW? or does the person they sell the car to eventually get it? I will say this, Toyota gave us a hard time about trading the car in. They initially said they wouldn't take it, and didn't know what they could do with it. Then some high up manager came out, looked at our near flawless car, made a phone call and came back with the $19K offer. I didn't bat a single eye, as I knew that was a damn good number, and needed to take that before they changed their mind, or figured out more info on the VW scandal.


Less than 30 days from the formal announcement and you sell a 2015 for 19? :screwy:

Every report has been that all parties involved are on the ball on this, the meeting last month went exactly as planned and are on schedule for the June 21st announcement. Just speculation obviously, but you would of gotten more than 19k plus whatever cash on top is going to be offered as compensation.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Cutandthrust said:


> I sold my wife's 2015 Golf Sportwagen SE TDI, DSG a week ago to a Toyota dealer for $19K, with 12K miles on the clock. The GSW TDI was a nice car, it got excellent fuel economy, but really was a bad fit for our family needs. We traded for a 2016 4Runner SR5, 4x4. I know not comparing apples to apples, and yes we went from 45 mpgs to 18 lol, however, in the end we couldn't sit around and wait for VW to come to a never ending agreement on what to do with these cars, and we had a few nagging issues with our GSW since new. So we were eger and happy to get $19K for it, and to be done with it all together. Absolutely loving the new 4Runner though, gas mileage be damned.
> 
> I was very very happy to get $19K for this car, considering I have been hearing horror stories of people getting deep into the teens for these cars (2015 models none the less). I'm curious how this deal will pan out for all the dealers that take TDI's in on trade? Will my dealer get a big payout or buyback from VW? or does the person they sell the car to eventually get it? I will say this, Toyota gave us a hard time about trading the car in. They initially said they wouldn't take it, and didn't know what they could do with it. Then some high up manager came out, looked at our near flawless car, made a phone call and came back with the $19K offer. I didn't bat a single eye, as I knew that was a damn good number, and needed to take that before they changed their mind, or figured out more info on the VW scandal.


So.......wait a second. You mean to tell me you actually went out and tried to sell your car (with a little effort involved) and didn't just roll over and take everyones word at how horrible the resale value is?! :what:

I thought a 2015 GSW was now only worth like $10k? 

$19k dealer trade for a 2015 GSW with 12k on the ticker is pretty good, IMO.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

aj4066 said:


> $19k dealer trade for a 2015 GSW with 12k on the ticker is pretty good, IMO.


that is a $30k car, that at 1 year old has lost $11k in value.

that doesnt sound good to me at all.


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

dunhamjr said:


> that is a $30k car, that at 1 year old has lost $11k in value.
> 
> that doesnt sound good to me at all.


If he would've waited to sell it, and VW offered to buy the car back at pre-scandal blue book, he would've gotten more.

Too bad he just couldn't wait.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

GoHomeBroke said:


> If he would've waited to sell it, and VW offered to buy the car back at pre-scandal blue book, he would've gotten more.
> 
> Too bad he just couldn't wait.


People still think the newer cars are going to be bought back?


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Silly_me said:


> People still think the newer cars are going to be bought back?


From what I've read, it looks like VW will be forced to offer a buyback to anyone with an affected vehicle who wants it. I may have been reading it wrong, but that's how I took it.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

GoHomeBroke said:


> From what I've read, it looks like VW will be forced to offer a buyback to anyone with an affected vehicle who wants it. I may have been reading it wrong, but that's how I took it.


If a fix is available I'd be surprised to see such an offer.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Silly_me said:


> If a fix is available I'd be surprised to see such an offer.



You can't be serious? :screwy:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

aj4066 said:


> You can't be serious? :screwy:


That a fix will be made available or that you'll have a choice?


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

GoHomeBroke said:


> If he would've waited to sell it, and VW offered to buy the car back at pre-scandal blue book, he would've gotten more.
> 
> Too bad he just couldn't wait.


yes, i realize. that is why i dont think that $19k was a good price. 

it was a good ENOUGH price to get that guy out of his car. but i would never say it was a good/fair price compared to what a 1yr old TDI 'should' value for without dieselgate killing the numbers.


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

dunhamjr said:


> that is a $30k car, that at 1 year old has lost $11k in value.
> 
> that doesnt sound good to me at all.


Car had $29,500 MSRP new. I paid $27,400 OTD for it.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

dunhamjr said:


> yes, i realize. that is why i dont think that $19k was a good price.


I'd say for a *trade-in* it was a fantastic price, on average a new car loses 20% of value after the first year.


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

Silly_me said:


> If a fix is available I'd be surprised to see such an offer.


Exactly, my wife and I have extremely busy lives, own two businesses, she's a full time firefighter, we have two kids, soccer, baseball, swimming. We don't have time for VW's games and B.S. (I will write a check to make this blunder go away). As a previous MKIV owner from way back in the day, as the old saying goes.... Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. So glad to be back into a worry free Toyota, not to mention the rock solid re-sale value of our new 4Runner, will make up for the bath I took to get out of the TDI Golf.


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

Silly_me said:


> I'd say for a *trade-in* it was a fantastic price, on average a new car loses 20% of value after the first year.


I was hearing people on the TDI discussions quoting $15-$13K for 2014/ 2015 TDI's on trade/ and private party. So I was very very grateful to see a $19K offer. I mean in reality, that's probably a grand or two off what a Pre-scandal equivalent TDI like my car would have fetched (trade-in) anyway. It's only a bad deal if you don't feel good after. My wife and I couldn't be happier that the VW is gone, and she's much much happier with the 4Runner anyway, so no loss here from us.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Silly_me said:


> I'd say for a *trade-in* it was a fantastic price, on average a new car loses 20% of value after the first year.


It's definitely in the ballpark but it depends on what kind of deal he got on the car he bought also. Dealers sometimes like to pay more for the trade in in lieu of discounting the new car alot. So if he got 19 for his but paid MSRP for the car he might have gotten a bad deal. It's also in his best interest to actually have the trade in be less and the new car price be as low as possible in order to have taken a bigger "loss" on trade in so that VW has to reimburse him more.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Cutandthrust said:


> Car had $29,500 MSRP new. I paid $27,400 OTD for it.


ok fine, you got a great price.
but msrp plus tax would have been a lot closer to $33k.

and even at that.
$27.4 to $19k is 31%... that's a lot for a car that typically has very good resale value.


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

dunhamjr said:


> yes, i realize. that is why i dont think that $19k was a good price.
> 
> it was a good ENOUGH price to get that guy out of his car. but i would never say it was a good/fair price compared to what a 1yr old TDI 'should' value for without dieselgate killing the numbers.


You can't look at it that way, pre-dieselgate thinking is all smoke and mirrors today. Us TDI owners, and previous TDI owners are stuck with the fact today the cars are nearly worthless. 

It's like someone that had to sell their home, during the great recession. But everyone telling them (well your house was worth 90K more a year ago, or two years ago) if you needed to sell now, this is what its worth today. 

And that's where we were with our TDI (We didn't need a new car, or have to sell it) however I knew the cars value was in free-fall since last sept, and the fact my wife was only putting more miles on it, and it was going to be subject to more wear & tear. Plus the thought of owning a car long-term, where only a handful were built before the stop-sale didn't sit right with me. I wanted to make a move today. And $19K on trade, was a very generous offer from our Toyota dealer.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Silly_me said:


> I'd say for a *trade-in* it was a fantastic price, on average a new car loses 20% of value after the first year.


you say fantastic. i dont agree.
$27.4 to $19 is 31%... that's a lot of depreciation in 1yr for a car that typically has very good resale value.

pre-dieselgate.

people were buying new TDI's because buying used even on 2-3yr old cars with 50K miles would only save you $1-2k... not worth it.
now the values are toast compared to historic numbers.


----------



## Cutandthrust (Apr 11, 2014)

JitteryJoe said:


> It's definitely in the ballpark but it depends on what kind of deal he got on the car he bought also. Dealers sometimes like to pay more for the trade in in lieu of discounting the new car alot. So if he got 19 for his but paid MSRP for the car he might have gotten a bad deal. It's also in his best interest to actually have the trade in be less and the new car price be as low as possible in order to have taken a bigger "loss" on trade in so that VW has to reimburse him more.


Wait........ so you're thinking that VW still may owe us for diminished value on the trade-in? I was thinking VW would be paying out the dealer, or possibly the next owner the car is sold to? Interesting....


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

congrats on the new 4runner. I'll agree, the worst part of this is being stuck in limbo.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Cutandthrust said:


> You can't look at it that way, pre-dieselgate thinking is all smoke and mirrors today. Us TDI owners, and previous TDI owners are stuck with the fact today the cars are nearly worthless.
> 
> It's like someone that had to sell their home, during the great recession. But everyone telling them (well your house was worth 90K more a year ago, or two years ago) if you needed to sell now, this is what its worth today.
> 
> And that's where we were with our TDI (We didn't need a new car, or have to sell it) however I knew the cars value was in free-fall since last sept, and the fact my wife was only putting more miles on it, and it was going to be subject to more wear & tear. Plus the thought of owning a car long-term, where only a handful were built before the stop-sale didn't sit right with me. I wanted to make a move today. And $19K on trade, was a very generous offer from our Toyota dealer.


i get what you are thinking.
but dont try to use the logic about housing prices/recession and people that HAD to sell. then tell us that you really didnt have to sell. your point lost all its edge.

you wanted to sell. you didnt have to. because of that, you were fine agreeing to a lesser value for the vehicle than what you should. that is fine, that is your choice. but that doesnt make it right or a good decision... or something that anyone else here should choose to do.

you also mention that $19k was a very generous offer from Toyota. no doubt. 
but that is not what most people are getting for their TDI's. and lets not forget. Toyota put you into one of their own $35-40k trucks. they had some wiggle room on the values to give you more on trade than they had to.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

dunhamjr said:


> you say fantastic. i dont agree.


Fantastic, no? How about great?



dunhamjr said:


> ok fine, you got a great price.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Cutandthrust said:


> Wait........ so you're thinking that VW still may owe us for diminished value on the trade-in? I was thinking VW would be paying out the dealer, or possibly the next owner the car is sold to? Interesting....


actually yes this is possible, since you owned the car at the announcement. and THAT has been a key for a lot of things VW has done already.

maybe you will luck out.
I would almost guess though instead of the diminished value ($19k vs whatever you could have gotten from VW), that you might only be getting the $5k "we screwed up, take our money" payment.

either way.
you made your choice already.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Silly_me said:


>


initial purchase price. NOT trade in.

but initial purchase price shouldnt really have swayed the decision to get out of the car early.

just think of that discussion in your head.
"maybe I should get out now, instead of waiting for another month or three when I can get VW to buy the car back and maybe not lose anything"
"but i am ONLY losing $8400, instead of $11k because i was a good negotiator are purchase.... so that's ok." 
"where do i sign to solidify my $8400 loss?"

:laugh:


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

dunhamjr said:


> initial purchase price. NOT trade in.
> 
> but initial purchase price shouldnt really have swayed the decision to get out of the car early.
> 
> ...


Well, selling prices to have a slight impact on used car values. For example, a Chevy Cobalt that *consistently *sells new for 5-6k off sticker will have a lower used car value down the road.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

dunhamjr said:


> "where do i sign to solidify my $8400 loss?"
> 
> :laugh:


This carries teh assumption that VW will buy back fixable cars; and that post diesel fracas owners can't file a claim for the (rumored) $5k mea culpa payout.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

AJB said:


> Well, selling prices to have a slight impact on used car values. For example, a Chevy Cobalt that *consistently *sells new for 5-6k off sticker will have a lower used car value down the road.


very true for cars that are ALWAYS marked off... ie. most american cars.
but the impact of the occasionally well negotiated selling price on most other vehicle will have minimal impact on those cars normal resale values.

we got $4k off our own JSW TDI. but i would not use that well made purchase price as a way to offset losses to justify selling/trading the car when the values are currently out of whack.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

*Selected info from the court transcript.....*

The court transcript from May 24th can be found here: http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/crb/vwmdl


The following excerpt from Judge Breyer:


"...First, the settlements address noncompliant 2-liter-engine
cars currently on the road. By Volkswagen offering to buy back
or to terminate the lease for each vehicle, or, at no cost to
the consumer, and subject to Government approval after further
testing, by the consumer choosing to have Volkswagen modify the
vehicles to reduce the emissions in accordance with the
requirements set by EPA and CARB.
Second, in addition -- and I want to emphasize this. In
addition to the buy-back or modification, the settlement pays
substantial monetary compensation to the proposed class of
2-liter-engine owners and lessees.
Third, the settlement requires Volkswagen to pay money
into a fund that will support environmental remediation. In
addition, Volkswagen will be required to commit other funds to
promote green automotive technology.
None of these settlement benefits will be reduced by the
payment of attorneys' fees and costs...."

The attorneys, lots of cash. :thumbup:


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

I think 3 pages of shaming a TDI owner for choosing to get rid of a car they own before VW finally gets around to doing something with the scandal is a new low for the TDI Mafia.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Silly_me said:


> That a fix will be made available or that you'll have a choice?


I think a choice is almost certain based on every single thing I have read. In fact, I wonder how you even think different.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Sporin said:


> I think 3 pages of shaming a TDI owner for choosing to get rid of a car they own before VW finally gets around to doing something with the scandal is a new low for the TDI Mafia.


was that really shaming?
i just thought it was discussion.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

aj4066 said:


> I think a choice is almost certain based on every single thing I have read. In fact, I wonder how you even think different.


This is answered with certainty, in the court proceeding posted yesterday. No need to guess.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Cutandthrust said:


> Wait........ so you're thinking that VW still may owe us for diminished value on the trade-in? I was thinking VW would be paying out the dealer, or possibly the next owner the car is sold to? Interesting....


Yes, your sale, if at diminished value is due to the fraud. You bought the car before the fraud was announced so you are the one affected by the fraud and have legal ground for compensation. Everyone else who buys the car after the announcement (sept 2015) bought it knowing full well that it didn't meet emissions and thus knowingly accepted the risks associated with that even if they technically didn't know at the time (once it's made public it's considered common knowledge, even if you were in a bunker in an undisclosed location at the time)

So yes, keep all documents related to the sale and be looking at the news for an announcement from VW about possible compensation to you. You should be eligible for the same compensation or similar as anyone else who bought an effected car prior to Dieselgate. Not sure but from what's I've been reading but they are acting like June 21 is going to be the deadline for filing a lawsuit with VW so you may have to join a class action by then (not sure if you can simply join an existing class action after that date). It may be beneficial to hop onto a class action suit now in case VW does try to leave you out to dry (I seriously doubt this though)


----------



## GoHomeBroke (Nov 15, 2014)

Isn't that what the $5k is? Compensation for the fraud suffered by customers.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

JitteryJoe said:


> Yes, your sale, if at diminished value is due to the fraud. You bought the car before the fraud was announced so you are the one affected by the fraud and have legal ground for compensation. Everyone else who buys the car after the announcement (sept 2015) bought it knowing full well that it didn't meet emissions and thus knowingly accepted the risks associated with that even if they technically didn't know at the time (once it's made public it's considered common knowledge, even if you were in a bunker in an undisclosed location at the time)
> 
> So yes, keep all documents related to the sale and be looking at the news for an announcement from VW about possible compensation to you. You should be eligible for the same compensation or similar as anyone else who bought an effected car prior to Dieselgate. Not sure but from what's I've been reading but they are acting like June 21 is going to be the deadline for filing a lawsuit with VW so you may have to join a class action by then (not sure if you can simply join an existing class action after that date). It may be beneficial to hop onto a class action suit now in case VW does try to leave you out to dry (I seriously doubt this though)


I thought you had to opt out of a class action?


----------



## Volkl (Oct 2, 2003)

spockcat said:


> Given all the gas hybrid vehicles available that easily hit over 40 mpg, people shouldn't have much difficulty to find something that will meet mpg requirements that most TDI owners want. And plug in hybrid vehicles typically exceed a TDI's mpg by 20% or more.


I like something with the practicality of my wagon, gets 40+mpg hwy, is still fun to drive, and preferably stick. Also, I can't have anything too flashy/premium, as that comes off wrong with the customers I deal with for work on a daily basis. And my options are...?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

kickercoach said:


> This is answered with certainty, in the court proceeding posted yesterday. No need to guess.


I dunno......



kickercoach's posting of Breyer's excerpt said:


> noncompliant 2-liter-engine
> cars currently on the road. By Volkswagen offering to buy back
> or to terminate the lease for each vehicle, or, at no cost to
> the consumer, and subject to Government approval after further
> ...


If you read the statement as if it were a piece of legislation (like it was written by a lawmaker) There are two options for VW:

1) To offer to modify the car if the modification is approved by the government. 

2) To offer to buy back the car.

Conversely the consumer can:

1) If advised a modification is available: Have car modified at no cost, or choose to not have it modified.

2) If offered a buyback: Accept buyback offer, or not accept buyback offer.

I think the only option the consumer will have is to accept, or not accept, the offer that VW provides to them (ie what they negotiate with EPA for that specific engine/car). To me the wording really boils down to: _Volkswagen offering to buy back.....or......modify the vehicles_.

I could be wrong, but I've seen a lot of legislative wording that works out as such.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Silly_me said:


> People still think the newer cars are going to be bought back?


Yes.



GoHomeBroke said:


> From what I've read, it looks like VW will be forced to offer a buyback to anyone with an affected vehicle who wants it. I may have been reading it wrong, but that's how I took it.


Exactly.



Silly_me said:


> If a fix is available I'd be surprised to see such an offer.


The fix is NOT available, and nor will it be any time soon. Owners will have TWO years to decide whether to sell it back to VW or get a fix. Which means... the fix is very likely going to take those two years to figure out. This isn't adding a new piece of exhaust, or computer programming... 

The fix will involve lots of bent metal costs, loaner vehicles, time, money, and a laundry list of potential warranty issues in the future. VW wan't no part in that... 

The buy back is largely being proposed by VW to stop them from facing a potential 600,000 lawsuits from owners in North America, and from CARB and the EPA, etc.... the cars are secondary to getting sued, a lot. This is also why they'll offer the monetary compensation to everyone with a car, regardless of whether they sell it back or fix it. You'll need to sign your right to sue away when getting the package. That's what they are after. Saving face with the public, and all that crap comes later...


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

E CODE said:


> The buy back is largely being proposed by VW to stop them from facing a potential 600,000 lawsuits from owners in North America, and from CARB and the EPA, etc.... the cars are secondary to getting sued, a lot. This is also why they'll offer the monetary compensation to everyone with a car, regardless of whether they sell it back or fix it. You'll need to sign your right to sue away when getting the package. That's what they are after. Saving face with the public, and all that crap comes later...


and this thought is why i am going to push for my wife to get rid of her JSW TDI, basically as soon as the buyback + compensation terms get determined.
i should be more than happy with getting Pre-Sept 2015 value + $5k hush money for the car.

my estimates with that type of situation basically layout as having 'owned' the car for about $100/mo payment equivalent.
to me that seems quite fair.

now lets just hope that the real world numbers play out according to what has been speculated about here.

dont get me wrong, we love our TDI's. but being stuck in this situation and the potential aftermath (warranty, emissions, reliability, power, economy issues) by keeping the car, is just not something i want to worry about going forward. and at 2.5yrs right now, plus a couple more months of resolution implementation coming and changing car needs, i think its about time the wife gets a new car anyways.


----------



## b0mb3r (Nov 9, 2006)

dunhamjr said:


> and this thought is why i am going to push for my wife to get rid of her JSW TDI, basically as soon as the buyback + compensation terms get determined.
> i should be more than happy with getting Pre-Sept 2015 value + $5k hush money for the car.
> 
> my estimates with that type of situation basically layout as having 'owned' the car for about $100/mo payment equivalent.
> ...


yep I am pretty much in the same boat, my wife keeps saying that she does not want another car payment but if the VW comes knocking on a door with a $20K check, I would say eff it and get rid of it.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

E CODE said:


> The fix is NOT available, and nor will it be any time soon. Owners will have TWO years to decide whether to sell it back to VW or get a fix. Which means... the fix is very likely going to take those two years to figure out. This isn't adding a new piece of exhaust, or computer programming...
> 
> The fix will involve lots of bent metal costs, loaner vehicles, time, money, and a laundry list of potential warranty issues in the future. VW wan't no part in that...
> 
> The buy back is largely being proposed by VW to stop them from facing a potential 600,000 lawsuits from owners in North America, and from CARB and the EPA, etc.... the cars are secondary to getting sued, a lot. This is also why they'll offer the monetary compensation to everyone with a car, regardless of whether they sell it back or fix it. You'll need to sign your right to sue away when getting the package. That's what they are after. Saving face with the public, and all that crap comes later...


My read on the situation is that it's the other way around: VW wants to fix the cars (but they have not come up with a technical remedy that is satisfactory to the regulators) and originally wanted no part of buying them back, and EPA/CARB insisted on VW including a buyback as an option for consumers. They likely have either not thought through, or have thought through but haven't accepted the consequences, of what the future implications are on warranty, the logistics of making it happen, resale value, etc.

The option to have the car repaired is likely in there to placate VW management who are still holding onto the faint hope of their engineers coming up with some sort of miracle at the last minute. As you stated, this fix is not available, nor will it be any time soon.

What it means is that VW will have to come up with the buyback offer first - in advance of any technical solution being approved.

Assuming that there is a time period (let's say 1 year) for consumers to take them up on the buyback offer - and there is still no approved technical fix ... I don't know if what happens then has been defined.

TDI new vehicle sales have been +/- 50,000 per year leading up to the scandal; VW knows that if they have to buy these cars back, even if they hold them in inventory in the hope that they could fix them and sell them at a future date, they would be depreciating all the while, and then having 500,000 used and fixed TDIs on the market will depress what they could sell them for.

In any case I see the end game the same way you do. The practical reality is that they will have to buy them all back, people will have to sign away their rights to sue when VW cuts them a check for taking back their car, and anyone who hangs onto their car in the expectation of a future fix is playing the lottery. If VW works a miracle and implements a fix, and it's a technical disaster (which is what I predict), and the buyback period has expired, and VW does their usual shenanigans of minimizing warranty coverage, these cars will be worthless on the resale market if (more) people know that they are a ticking time bomb with no warranty. On the other hand, if someone hangs onto their car and does NOT get the fix done (and sacrifices their payout), then they are playing the lottery with what their state regulators do. If state regulators forbid an un"fix"ed TDI from staying on the road then the car is worthless. On the other hand, if the state regulators play ignorant then an unfixed TDI still on the road after the buyout could be a gold mine. Overall, for someone who doesn't take the buyout, I see more bad outcomes than good.

We have one of these cars in the family, and the only way we will even consider having VW "fix" it is if it comes with an ironclad warranty: "You bring us a car with the check-engine light on, we give you a free loaner until such time as we return your car to you with the check engine light off, at no cost to you. END." No mileage limitations. No time limitations. No excuses. No blaming the end user. No limitations on consequential damage because "you drove more than 14 kilometers with the check engine light on and now you broke the whole thing".

If VW opts to fix these cars, and they haven't gotten the bugs out of it prior to doing so ... a warranty like that could be a wee bit expensive for them to live up to.

It's cheaper for VW to buy them all back and squish them all. They just haven't bought into that yet.

In reality there are only three options:
1) Crush
2) Bale
3) Shred


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

E CODE said:


> The fix is NOT available, and nor will it be any time soon. Owners will have TWO years to decide whether to sell it back to VW or get a fix. Which means... the fix is very likely going to take those two years to figure out. This isn't adding a new piece of exhaust, or computer programming...


The timeline is between VW and the EPA (and the court to some extent). Whatever is decided is what it is. 



E CODE said:


> The fix will involve lots of bent metal costs, loaner vehicles, time, money, and a laundry list of potential warranty issues in the future. VW wan't no part in that...


That would all depend on the cost–benefit analysis.



E CODE said:


> The buy back is largely being proposed by VW to stop them from facing a potential 600,000 lawsuits from owners in North America, and from CARB and the EPA, etc....


The buy back and/or the ' modify the vehicles to reduce the emissions in accordance with the requirements set by EPA and CARB.' is the standing agreement with the court to put to rest the class action lawsuit.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

GoFaster said:


> My read on the situation is that it's the other way around: VW wants to fix the cars (but they have not come up with a technical remedy that is satisfactory to the regulators) and originally wanted no part of buying them back, and EPA/CARB insisted on VW including a buyback as an option for consumers. They likely have either not thought through, or have thought through but haven't accepted the consequences, of what the future implications are on warranty, the logistics of making it happen, resale value, etc.
> 
> The option to have the car repaired is likely in there to placate VW management who are still holding onto the faint hope of their engineers coming up with some sort of miracle at the last minute. As you stated, this fix is not available, nor will it be any time soon.
> 
> ...


Excellent post.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

b0mb3r said:


> yep I am pretty much in the same boat, my wife keeps saying that she does not want another car payment but if the VW comes knocking on a door with a $20K check, I would say eff it and get rid of it.


my wife is pretty annoyed about it. she does want to get another car. and even though she is a math teacher, is having a hard time with the cold logic of the math which shows her out of pocket costs are/will be quite low for the 2.5-3yrs of new car ownership, that the buyout and "don't sue us" money will come out to.

for me, she is just having too emotional of a reaction to the whole, VW lied to me idea.
i just see that it will be an easy way for her to move into a new car (or at least a new to her car) right when the VW warranty is about to end. with the added benefit of only costing her ~$3k for that 3yrs of usage.


----------



## bzcat (Nov 26, 2001)

GoFaster said:


> My read on the situation is that it's the other way around: VW wants to fix the cars (but they have not come up with a technical remedy that is satisfactory to the regulators) and originally wanted no part of buying them back, and EPA/CARB insisted on VW including a buyback as an option for consumers. They likely have either not thought through, or have thought through but haven't accepted the consequences, of what the future implications are on warranty, the logistics of making it happen, resale value, etc.
> 
> The option to have the car repaired is likely in there to placate VW management who are still holding onto the faint hope of their engineers coming up with some sort of miracle at the last minute. As you stated, this fix is not available, nor will it be any time soon.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%

CARB and EPA are probably now leaning towards full buyback because they know there is no fix. VW is the one that is still flopping like a fish out of water, hoping for a miracle.

And the curve on cost of repair (and inevitable long extended warranty) that will meet compliance vs. buyback are probably approaching the same if not inverted already.

There is also another consideration for VW... agreeing to full buyback in the US will set a precedent with other countries' regulators. VW has rapidly settled with several countries already with software "fix" but obviously people in other countries know how to google too. So this is likely what is holding up VW's complete capitulation on buyback at the moment. It's not just a evaluation of US market but the likely fallout worldwide if they admit there is no fix to US regulator.


----------



## tsimitpo (Jul 22, 2014)

GoFaster said:


> ...
> It's cheaper for VW to buy them all back and squish them all. They just haven't bought into that yet...


You're right on it. "Fixing" the cars is not a viable option - the cost could be many times over the cost of giving 500k new cars away. As long as the EPA/CARB refuses to grant these vehicles 'emissions amnesty', VW's least expensive option is to buy 'em and crush 'em. It's a travesty that so much more damage will be inflicted on the environment (but we all know that's NOT the number one concern of the EPA). 

IMO, the biggest challenge is determining the buyback price. Being that there are 500,000 different residual values (original price and add-ons, less miles, wear-n-tear, etc) leading up to Sept 18, 2015, I expect that they'll have to offer full MSRP minus a small age/mileage reduction. I don't believe the lawyers will accept anything less as it would truly hurt anyone who doesn't have replacement cash at the ready (loss of job or whatever) and was planning to squeeze all the value they could get out of the car for as long as possible.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

I sure as hell do not want my car bought back. Give me some cash so I can rip out all of my emissions BS.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

Cutandthrust said:


> Wait........ so you're thinking that VW still may owe us for diminished value on the trade-in? I was thinking VW would be paying out the dealer, or possibly the next owner the car is sold to? Interesting....


I also unloaded my 2013 Mk6 Golf TDI after the scandal broke out but I stayed with VW since the Mk7 Golf TSI has pretty good specs for the money and at that time right after the scandal they had the $2K loyalty bonus. With that bonus and the trade-in I got, the depreciation I took for my 2.5 years old car was a reasonable 30% but frankly speaking I would have not gotten rid of the TDI if the scandal did not break out since I enjoyed the DSG and sport-tuned suspension. 

It will be interesting to see the details of the settlement but I think if you already sold the car you won't receive anything. They might do something for the first owners of the car even if they have sold after the scandal broke out, but I highly doubt that.

And FWIW, it's been about 7 months since I traded in the TDI and it is still sitting on the dealer lot.


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

dunhamjr said:


> was that really shaming?
> i just thought it was discussion.


Berating would be a word I guess.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

Silly_me said:


> I dunno......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"...First, the settlements address noncompliant 2-liter-engine
cars currently on the road. By Volkswagen offering to buy back
or to terminate the lease for each vehicle, or, at no cost to
the consumer, and subject to Government approval after further
testing, by the consumer choosing to have Volkswagen modify the
vehicles to reduce the emissions in accordance with the
requirements set by EPA and CARB.
Second, in addition -- and I want to emphasize this. In
addition to the buy-back or modification, the settlement pays
substantial monetary compensation to the proposed class of
2-liter-engine owners and lessees.

I really do not know why there is a question. This looks all simple to me but to each their own. Regardless, the best part is "substantial monetary compensation". Also, how each of judge Breyer's mandates are executed is at this time, absolute speculation. 

Things like two years to make a decision, $5,000 or $1,000 compensation, the ability to deny a modification, etc.. etc... all speculation generated by the press.


----------



## uncleho (Jun 10, 2000)

Well VW has something going for them in this mess... PotUS elections. 

They're gonna hurt financially, but at least the election distraction is prioritizing Dieselgate low on media radar, which directly impacts current and future sales.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

dunhamjr said:


> my wife is pretty annoyed about it. she does want to get another car. and even though she is a math teacher, is having a hard time with the cold logic of the math which shows her out of pocket costs are/will be quite low for the 2.5-3yrs of new car ownership, that the buyout and "don't sue us" money will come out to.
> 
> for me, she is just having too emotional of a reaction to the whole, VW lied to me idea.
> i just see that it will be an easy way for her to move into a new car (or at least a new to her car) right when the VW warranty is about to end. with the added benefit of only costing her ~$3k for that 3yrs of usage.


Car is my wife's car as well. She's a little peeved since I talked her into it anyway. She didn't want to give up her Civic but we needed a little bit bigger car. Hates change, so I think the only way I can get her to accept getting rid of it and not taking whatever the fix will be will be that Jetta alltrack thing. 



To everyone thinking the fix is going to be some sort of nightmare they haven't figured out, isn't it just because the cars run super duper lean? Lean creates no soot but a lot of NoX. Remap to run more rich, probably have to replace the particulate filter more often, and get worse performance and MPG? Or am I over simplifying?

So making the car slower and less efficient is also grounds for people to get compensation as it's not what you signed up to buy. We probably would of looked harder at Subaru if the MPGs weren't so good on this wagon.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

They're not going to crush the cars, they're going to sell them elsewhere.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

kickercoach said:


> I really do not know why there is a question. This looks all simple to me but to each their own.


I don't think you understand where I was going, if the wording was as such I wouldn't question it:

_By Volkswagen offering the consumer to choose to have Volkswagen buy back
or to terminate the lease for each vehicle, or, at no cost to
the consumer, and subject to Government approval after further
testing, modify the vehicles to reduce the emissions in accordance with the
requirements set by EPA and CARB._

But it is not, to me the consumer choice wording (and placement) really says "if you don't want the fix I'm not going to force it on you". $0.02


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

kickercoach said:


> "...First, the settlements address noncompliant 2-liter-engine
> cars currently on the road. By Volkswagen offering to buy back
> or to terminate the lease for each vehicle, or, *at no cost to
> the consumer, and subject to Government approval after further
> ...


I think the statement in bold is the most telling - After all the owners of the vehicles who want to get rid of them take their buyback, we are left with the owners who keep their cars and who want to take a gamble - and I also think VW would never be making a full "fix" so to speak - this is all negotiation. If CARB wants say an arbitrary number of 50% less emissions from these cars that are not bought back, VW would come up with fixes that reduce (key word above, as in my reading it applies that some reduction in emissions would be had, not necessarily full CARB compliance IMO) the emissions by 20-25% - those fixes would have to be negotiated and approved by regulators, and CARB seems to be not really willing to accept much less than 100% compliance.

With that said and CARB's stance I don't think anything other than a mild software update would be implemented in the future on the remaining 2.0L cars on the road. After paying all the buybacks, regulators, greenhouse credits etc, VW's top priority is not to engineer anything from scratch or that would impact their bottom line (extended warranties, etc) for the remaining 100-200k vehicles on the road - so I think the gold mine reference used above is a very good analogy - you technically could have a gold mine if you kept it - assuming that your states keep their 10th Amendment rights and you're allowed to drive your vehicle as is.


----------



## JDub8 (May 24, 2008)

GoFaster said:


> My read on the situation is that it's the other way around: VW wants to fix the cars (but they have not come up with a technical remedy that is satisfactory to the regulators) and originally wanted no part of buying them back, and EPA/CARB insisted on VW including a buyback as an option for consumers. They likely have either not thought through, or have thought through but haven't accepted the consequences, of what the future implications are on warranty, the logistics of making it happen, resale value, etc.
> 
> The option to have the car repaired is likely in there to placate VW management who are still holding onto the faint hope of their engineers coming up with some sort of miracle at the last minute. As you stated, this fix is not available, nor will it be any time soon.
> 
> ...


You forget VW's par-for-the-course game plan. When done producing cars for 1st world markets - move the tooling to 2nd and 3rd world and sell there. Theres a reason mkIV's are/were still being produced and sold in brazil up until recently. They could just dump the cars on the Chinese market and other countries with more lax air pollution standards. Cheaper than crushing them I think. Only problem with that is it would undercut sales of existing production capacity for awhile.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

IM waiting for my $20k check :laugh:


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

JDub8 said:


> You forget VW's par-for-the-course game plan. When done producing cars for 1st world markets - move the tooling to 2nd and 3rd world and sell there. Theres a reason mkIV's are/were still being produced and sold in brazil up until recently. They could just dump the cars on the Chinese market and other countries with more lax air pollution standards. Cheaper than crushing them I think. Only problem with that is it would undercut sales of existing production capacity for awhile.


I would say this is unlikely and if they try it they're unlikely to meet with much success:
- The majority of the cars affected by this situation have instruments displaying gibberish to the rest of the world that speaks metric. Instrument cluster replacement ...
- The majority of the cars affected by this situation have lighting that is non-compliant in the rest of the world. All but the least-developed places in the world follow and enforce the UNECE standards. Taillamp replacement ...
- The places in the world that are backward enough that they don't care about the above situations, aren't in a position to pay much for half a million cars dumped on their market. And the cost of gathering up and shipping these cars overseas to such places is significant.
- The places in the world that are backward enough to not care about the above, may not have ULSD fuel, and if that's the case, the sophisticated fuel injection and emission control systems on these cars (which are reliant on being fed ULSD only) will not survive.
- VW may not want to take on the liability of selling used vehicles. They're not in that business.
- VW may not want to take on the bad public opinion that this move would likely create. We're all breathing the same air. For local emissions (which is more relevant for NOx) - What justifies making people in <name your third world country of choice> breathe NOx any more than making people here breathe it?


----------



## tsimitpo (Jul 22, 2014)

grawk said:


> They're not going to crush the cars, they're going to sell them elsewhere.


IMO, that would be a mistake. They may very well be able to sell them elsewhere for a short term gain monetarily, but they would almost certainly regret how the EPA responds if they're not "fixed".

Not only that, but with the spotlight squarely on them in an environment of heightened awareness of the global impact of regional policies, I believe such a tactic would set them way back in their already daunting task of winning back consumer confidence.

It's a bloody mess and the alternatives to "buy 'em and crush 'em" are far from simple and assume unpredictable and potentially destructive ramifications.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

tsimitpo said:


> but they would almost certainly regret how the EPA responds if they're not "fixed".


if they took them out of the US and sold them in say Nigeria... WTH would the EPA be able to say or do?


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

Someone in California with a gray a5-generation Jetta TDI appears to have recently ordered a yellow-on-black personalized plate that reads:

DSELGTE


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

My other half had a flat tire over the weekend. Took the car to the tire store; unrepairable. 

Bought *one* replacement tire. Something cheap...a Federal, I think. I have never purchased a single replacement tire in this scenario. Ever. 

But...if the car is ours for only another 2-3 months...not gonna bother buying two new tires, much less four.


----------



## bzcat (Nov 26, 2001)

grawk said:


> They're not going to crush the cars, they're going to sell them elsewhere.


There is zero chance in hell that EPA or CARB will allow VW to export these cars. They are gonna all end up in a crusher somewhere.



dunhamjr said:


> if they took them out of the US and sold them in say Nigeria... WTH would the EPA be able to say or do?


Tell VW to [email protected] itself? I don't think people are understanding the ramification here. VW is entering into a legal settlement with the EPA and CARB... the terms of buyback *and disposal* will be subject to Govt review and approval. These 2.0 TDI engine blocks will probably be pulled from the car and melted down separately from the rest of the car.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

bzcat said:


> There is zero chance in hell that EPA or CARB will allow VW to export these cars. They are gonna all end up in a crusher somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> Tell VW to [email protected] itself? I don't think people are understanding the ramification here. VW is entering into a legal settlement with the EPA and CARB... the terms of buyback *and disposal* will be subject to Govt review and approval. These 2.0 TDI engine blocks will probably be pulled from the car and melted down separately from the rest of the car.


Thanks for more speculation.. you don't have a clue what VW will be able to do with car's they now own again. They could easily be fixed to conform to the emissions requirements of another country and be re-sold, unless you know of some law that says otherwise.

Let's not even bring up the environmental impact of disposing of 500K perfectly viable cars.


----------



## GlhTroy (Aug 6, 2013)

Wouldn't mind if VW cut the cars in half (door to door) behind the shifter and sold the front clips for some project cars 😆. Would make one hell of a fun MK1 with a stage 2 software tune 😍 😍😍 well as boy can dream anyway

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Parklife (Feb 23, 1999)

Numbersix said:


> My other half had a flat tire over the weekend. Took the car to the tire store; unrepairable.
> 
> Bought *one* replacement tire. Something cheap...a Federal, I think. I have never purchased a single replacement tire in this scenario. Ever.
> 
> But...if the car is ours for only another 2-3 months...not gonna bother buying two new tires, much less four.


I had one of those cab-under Boeing trucks kick up a rock on 405 and crack the windshield on mine. I've been loathe to replace it if it's not going to affect valuation. If it IS, then I'm going to pay the $350 to Safelite and have it done.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Parklife said:


> Safelite and have it done.


You couldn't have just said 'to have a shop fix it'?  Now I'm going to have that fecking song stuck in my goddamned head all night.........


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

Silly_me said:


> You couldn't have just said 'to have a shop fix it'?  Now I'm going to have that fecking song stuck in my goddamned head all night.........












[video]https://youtu.be/OybyY8pyrog?t=27s[/video]

:thumbup::thumbup::laugh:


----------



## Parklife (Feb 23, 1999)

Silly_me said:


> You couldn't have just said 'to have a shop fix it'?  Now I'm going to have that fecking song stuck in my goddamned head all night.........


It's a service we provide here at Amalgamated Parklife.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

dunhamjr said:


> if they took them out of the US and sold them in say Nigeria... WTH would the EPA be able to say or do?


How much do you think they could sell 500,000 cars for in Nigeria? (It would overwhelm the local market) Would this exceed the cost of shipping them there?

How long do you think that fragile Bosch CP4.1 injector pump will survive on fuel that you can get in Nigeria? They have enough trouble with fuel sold in the USA.

How long do you think the DPF would last on whatever fuel they use in Nigeria?


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

GoFaster said:


> How much do you think they could sell 500,000 cars for in Nigeria? (It would overwhelm the local market) Would this exceed the cost of shipping them there?
> 
> How long do you think that fragile Bosch CP4.1 injector pump will survive on fuel that you can get in Nigeria? They have enough trouble with fuel sold in the USA.
> 
> How long do you think the DPF would last on whatever fuel they use in Nigeria?


seriously?
i picked a random location. there are many options for other countries to send the cars to.

either way. its speculation just like pretty much everything else in this thread.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Parklife said:


> I had one of those cab-under Boeing trucks kick up a rock on 405 and crack the windshield on mine. I've been loathe to replace it if it's not going to affect valuation. If it IS, then I'm going to pay the $350 to Safelite and have it done.


Really? Here in Indiana I have comprehensive coverage that has a 0 deductible for glass replacement. This may vary state-to-state, though.


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

Air and water do mix said:


> Really? Here in Indiana *I have comprehensive coverage* that has a 0 deductible for glass replacement.


It boggles my mind, but not everyone carries comprehensive.


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

Parklife said:


> I had one of those cab-under Boeing trucks kick up a rock on 405 and crack the windshield on mine. I've been loathe to replace it if it's not going to affect valuation. If it IS, then I'm going to pay the $350 to Safelite and have it done.


Wait, you have a leased car, which requires full insurance coverage (as far as I know), and you don't have glass coverage? 

I don't think I've ever paid more than a $100 deductible for a windshield.


----------



## G60ING (Jun 27, 2000)

I bet the cars end up like the cash for clunkers deal. The engines will die a terrible death, be painted orange at the junkyard and non-engine parts will get sold. Then the cars will get crushed and recycled.


----------



## Ambrose Wolfinger (Feb 21, 2005)

phil123 said:


>


The rhythm displayed in this meme isn't even closely related to the actual jingle.


----------



## Parklife (Feb 23, 1999)

Air and water do mix said:


> Really? Here in Indiana I have comprehensive coverage that has a 0 deductible for glass replacement. This may vary state-to-state, though.


$0 glass is an optional coverage, which we've since sprung for. When my wife and I got to the point in our relationship where we merged things like insurance policies, I was put on her auto insurance, rather than add her to mine, so I wasn't aware of this deficiency.

Since the damage occurred prior to the change in coverage, I don't want to be scammy and run it through as a claim. Otherwise, glass damage that can be filled or repaired is covered, but complete panel replacement is not covered up to the cost of the comprehensive deductible.

Anyway, back to diesels.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

You're a stand-up guy, Parklife. :beer:

I wish more people were.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

I just took our in for the 90k service. It had squeaking steering wheel for some time that the dealer could not diagnose the issue. Anyway, it needs a new steering rack (waiting on the part), between my extended warranty and the $500 VW card I'm shouldn't be out any money, but if something happens again before outcome of Dieselgate, I'm not fixing the car until I know my options. In fact I'd go so far to submit my expenses to VWoA for reimbursement if needed.


----------



## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

dunhamjr said:


> seriously?
> i picked a random location. there are many options for other countries to send the cars to.
> 
> either way. its speculation just like pretty much everything else in this thread.


My serious guess would be Mexico, especially with the alignment of a North American Region.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

fiftysomething said:


> My serious guess would be Mexico, especially with the alignment of a North American Region.


makes sense.
i just grabbed a not 'first world' type of country at random and Nigeria is always on my mind in that regard.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

fiftysomething said:


> My serious guess would be Mexico, especially with the alignment of a North American Region.


They still use metric though so how would they factor in the instrument clusters geared for American use?


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

DUBPL8 said:


> They still use metric though so how would they factor in the instrument clusters geared for American use?


no more gears in the cluster.

it's a setting (code) in the ECU and different gauge faces, that's all


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

DUBPL8 said:


> They still use metric though so how would they factor in the instrument clusters geared for American use?





.LSinLV. said:


> no more gears in the cluster.
> 
> it's a setting (code) in the ECU and different gauge faces, that's all


I think you took "geared" a little too literally. Perhaps "configured" would have been a better word. There are a number of other subtle differences between a UN-ECE compliant instrument cluster and a US cluster - such as the use of international symbols rather than words for some of the warning lamps.

But still ... they're not going to disassemble an instrument cluster to replace a gauge face (requires removing the needles, etc), they would replace the entire cluster ... which is not cheap.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

GoFaster said:


> But still ... they're not going to disassemble an instrument cluster to replace a gauge face (requires removing the needles, etc), they would replace the entire cluster ... which is not cheap.


I think the price per car would go down significantly if you needed to do a hundred thousand cars and the work was being done with Mexican labor. Doing one at a dealership isn't nearly as efficient as having thousands of them lined up and doing them like an assembly line.


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

This is on my local dealer's website. Couldn't find any other details on their website, but I'm going to be going by next week for service so I'll inquire.


----------



## porterrad (Aug 19, 2011)

Skizzle1111 said:


> This is on my local dealer's website. Couldn't find any other details on their website, but I'm going to be going by next week for service so I'll inquire.


Let us know what you learn!


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

Skizzle1111 said:


> This is on my local dealer's website. Couldn't find any other details on their website, but I'm going to be going by next week for service so I'll inquire.


Interesting!


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Skizzle1111 said:


> This is on my local dealer's website. Couldn't find any other details on their website, but I'm going to be going by next week for service so I'll inquire.


Looks like a dealer sales pitch not any part of an official buyback. Doubt you would do as well as when the official buyback is in place.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

dmorrow said:


> I think the price per car would go down significantly if you needed to do a hundred thousand cars and the work was being done with Mexican labor. Doing one at a dealership isn't nearly as efficient as having thousands of them lined up and doing them like an assembly line.


Sure. But then gathering up all those cars into one place (how big would it have to be and where would you put it?) so that you COULD do it in assembly-line fashion becomes the expensive part of the exercise.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

I have a feeling these will soon begin popping up everywhere. Pretty soon it will be other makes throwing jabs at VW with 'we don't lie, come to us' type ads. 

I was also thinking that the meeting is said to take place in a few weeks with a short public comment window. How convenient to have the meeting near the end of the quarter.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

That dealer above is likely speculating that they'll reclaim more from the buyback than whatever they're paying (distressed) people for their cars. In other words ... they win, you lose.


----------



## porterrad (Aug 19, 2011)

spockcat said:


> Looks like a dealer sales pitch not any part of an official buyback. Doubt you would do as well as when the official buyback is in place.


'Til the diesel recall, my local dealer sent me a letter every 6-9 months saying they wanted to buy my TDI - if I bought a new car from them. I presume they sent similar letters to all of their customers. No idea what they would have paid. Since the recall, they won't take my TDI at any price.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

GoFaster said:


> That dealer above is likely speculating that they'll reclaim more from the buyback than whatever they're paying (distressed) people for their cars. In other words ... they win, you lose.


Theres been plenty of people on various forums who are commenting about their distress with the entire situation. "OMG I NEED OUT OF THIS CAR BUT CANT!" Well, here is your opportunity to do so at a dealership. :thumb:

But yeah, the dealership will always win. Its not personal, its business.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

My local dealer said the owner has been giving all TDI affected customers 20% off of parts and services at the dealership for the time being because of the scandal - nice to see that sort of thing - I'm going for complimentary 20k service tomorrow but its going to help on purchasing an Austin wheel that my wife took a chunk out of


----------



## jerzrunr (Jan 6, 2009)

Not all dealers are jerks. My local dealership is giving free scheduled maintenance (10K mile increments) and 20% off parts and service to TDI owners. I got my 50K service done and an alignment done for $90. And free waiting room coffee!

http://www.douglasvw.com/special-announcement-for-all-vw-tdi-diesel-owners


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

Yup I got a few of these letters from local dealers. Im sure they are hoping to cash in on a buyback. Perhaps a bunch of people dont even KNOW there is supposed to be a buyback coming out soon?

IM still waiting for official numbers. Then...we'll talk.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

jerzrunr said:


> Not all dealers are jerks. My local dealership is giving free scheduled maintenance (10K mile increments) and 20% off parts and service to TDI owners. I got my 50K service done and an alignment done for $90. And free waiting room coffee!
> 
> http://www.douglasvw.com/special-announcement-for-all-vw-tdi-diesel-owners


LMAO Its funny you mentioned that because my post was complimenting Douglas as well - Wifey is getting a new wheel and 20k service tomorrow - Very impressed with them!


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

GoFaster said:


> That dealer above is likely speculating that they'll reclaim more from the buyback than whatever they're paying (distressed) people for their cars. In other words ... they win, you lose.


I traded in my TDI end of last October at my local dealer and it's still for sale on their lot. They reduced the price by $3K since then and still no luck in selling it. I would assume they would try to keep it for the "big" buyback but apparently not so.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Jack-DE said:


> I traded in my TDI end of last October at my local dealer and it's still for sale on their lot. They reduced the price by $3K since then and still no luck in selling it. I would assume they would try to keep it for the "big" buyback but apparently not so.


Will dealer even qualify for the "consumer" buy back program? I doubt it.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AJB said:


> Will dealer even qualify for the "consumer" buy back program? I doubt it.


One would think VW would put into place a program for dealers who could take in TDIs prior to a buyback, thus saving VW some money and keeping TDI owners in the VW family.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

spockcat said:


> One would think VW would put into place a program for dealers who could take in TDIs prior to a buyback, thus saving VW some money and keeping TDI owners in the VW family.


^This - and it lets dealers do the leg work for VW by absorbing as many cars as they can as opposed to an individual basis


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Here's my take on all this take it or leave it. With the way fraud lawsuits work is that the goal is to "make the victim whole". No matter what happens the reimbursement has to be the same or similar. Let me throw out some made up numbers to help make some sense here.

20,000 Say your TDI is worth 20K pre-scandal and they offer to buy back at this price. Could be some adjustment for milage.
4,000 VW decides to give you some "sorry" money on top of pre scandal value. Could be based on % of pre-scandal value, flat Owner loyalty only towards new VW purchase, who knows, doesn't really matter

=24,000 Total compensation from VW

Doesn't matter whether you sold, crashed, or doused the car with gasoline and lit in on fire (ok maybe not that last one unless you made it look like an accident. You are entitled to the full 24K in this example. Sell or crash you car and get only 15K for it? VW owes you 9K in the same form as if you took the buyback. They can't say "sorry you sold it so you get nothing". Especially since I haven't seen any guidance from VW telling you not to sell your car.

Even if the dealer graciously offers you the full 20K pre scandal value for it VW still owes you the sorry money. They owe the dealer 20K to buy the car back at what they paid for it (they don't get an incentive because they weren't the one lied to, you get it). Same situation with selling to a private party. If they even choose to buy back from a private party/dealer, they may only give them the option to have it "fixed". Bottom line is VW pays 24K and you get that in full if you still have the car or you get the difference if you sold it or crashed it.

The same principle applies to securities fraud. Say they go all enron and the stock value was $20 before the news broke. You are entitled to sue for whatever your loss was if you sold the stock at a loss after the news. The person you sold it too new the risks involved and they don't get compensated for further decline in the price.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

AJB said:


> Will dealer even qualify for the "consumer" buy back program? I doubt it.


There's been multiple stories about how dealers have been getting support money directly from VWoA to keep them happy. Already dealers are pissed at VW failing to bring out enough products to keep them in business (VW sales have dropped by 40% since 2011) and the last thing VW needs is to piss off even more dealers. Most are part of automotive groups where they already do business with 3 or more brands. If VW treats dealers badly enough, they will just liquidate their VW inventory, cancel their franchise deal and switch that very same car lot into something else, like Subaru, Toyota, or basically _anything else_ in order to avoid getting screwed by VW. VWoA needs to avoid letting that happen, so it's in their interest to not jerk the dealers around that are helping them by getting old TDI's traded in on new cars.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

*Owners have been delaying service*



jerzrunr said:


> Not all dealers are jerks. My local dealership is giving free scheduled maintenance (10K mile increments) and 20% off parts and service to TDI owners. I got my 50K service done and an alignment done for $90. And free waiting room coffee!
> 
> http://www.douglasvw.com/special-announcement-for-all-vw-tdi-diesel-owners



Don't want to rain on your happiness, but many many VW owners have been delaying service and maintenance since the scandal began. As reported from the deepest darkest reaches of the media the reduction in maintenance expenditures has negatively impacted the maintenance, service and parts revenue streams for both the dealerships and VW. Reduced parts and service prices are an enticement to kick start revenue in the service sector of the business. 

A 20% reduction in parts puts the parts prices a little closer to where they should have been in the first place. I might also note that just getting you in the door gets them to opportunity to offer more and more services. The dealership knows that for every few folks who walk through the door, they are able to upsell and make more coin The stealerships are still making money on these reduced cost deals, piles.

Remember, Mary Bara utilized the GM recall to great effect in getting customers in the door to see the new models. A pile of new car sales, simply by executing the recall. 


Ah, the car business, interesting.


----------



## Hot Wheels (Oct 31, 2006)

tjl said:


> Someone in California with a gray a5-generation Jetta TDI appears to have recently ordered a yellow-on-black personalized plate that reads:
> 
> DSELGTE


Beat him to it months ago...


----------



## crxgat0r (Dec 20, 2002)

Got my custom plate while waiting for this to end so I can get an a3. 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

crxgat0r said:


>



Jeebus this is bad, your emblem is covered in noxious soot!


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Now gracing the rear window of our TDI:


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

I am bored and thinking 

I really don't want to give up "Scooter" my Golf

I assume that means no comfort cash

But will virgin TDIs go up in value like Pre 86 machine guns? That would be awesome


----------



## b0mb3r (Nov 9, 2006)

Ours has a check engine light and the fuel-economy dropped drastically, which is a pretty good indication of failing DPF. Good thing that it was recently inspected . It is a good car and works well for us, and it will be difficult to replace since there are slim choices for a manual vehicle.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Numbersix said:


> Now gracing the rear window of our TDI:


I need one. Where did you get it?


----------



## bajacalal (May 12, 2009)

fiftysomething said:


> My serious guess would be Mexico, especially with the alignment of a North American Region.


It won't be. The large auto markets in this hemisphere, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina wouldn't allow it. They're all somewhat sophisticated governments that (ostensibly) have regulations protecting the environment, and more importantly, they want to project the image of being not-backward, not-corrupt, not kleptocracies and want to be taken seriously, as nations. They aren't going to allow 500,000 (or even 100,000 a piece) basket case cars with a known defect (and half of them are probably northeast rust buckets by now anyway) to flood their country, especially since they all have domestic auto production that this would seriously undermine, such production sustains a significant part of their workforce. 

So this leaves countries like Honduras and Ghana, that probably don't give a damn (and these countries do purchase significant numbers of used vehicles from the U.S. already), but each of those would probably only absorb a few thousand cars each, since the number of people in each of these countries willing and able to buy this car, or any car, for that matter, at any price, is very small. Volkswagen Panama for example, lists 3 VW dealers in the whole country. Three. Volkswagen is simply not going to go through the trouble and expense of shipping these to every corner of the third world and finding buyers for them. 

What you might see, however, is some enterprising Ghanians or Salvadorians buying up cars at a low price, from panicky Americans who want to get rid of their TDI quickly, now that TDI prices have apparently crashed, and their future is uncertain, and shipping them back to their respective countries would be a profitable venture. I'd be surprised if this isn't already happening. But it isn't going to happen once VWoA is in possession of these cars. I'm certain of that. The EPA won't allow it, part of the agreement will clearly specify how VW is to dispose of those cars. And it won't be "let Sierra Leone deal with them," especially not in this political environment, globalism, Obama administration and all.



GoFaster said:


> Sure. But then gathering up all those cars into one place (how big would it have to be and where would you put it?) so that you COULD do it in assembly-line fashion becomes the expensive part of the exercise.


Exactly. Even if you're paying people $2.40 an hour and doing it somewhere with cheap real estate, this is a huge investment in industrial real estate, transportation, tooling, producing the compliant parts, and training employees on their installation, which, is a skilled task mind you, complicated by the fact that cars are going to vary in condition and serviceability. All this to do something which earns you no money. And then you invested all this money and the 200,000 or 500,000 cars are done in 6 months. What then? It's a classic example of "putting good money after bad" when trying to cut your losses, the most economical solution being to simply pay off all the owners and then walk away from the white elephant that you created.

If the cars aren't economically fixable, meaning something akin to no more than 2 bolt-on replacement parts, 5 hours labor and an ECU re-flash at the dealer they are going to be destroyed, probably in a similar manner to Cash for CLunkers since the current administration seemed to like that idea. The end is nigh.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

^definitely. 

Much easier and cheaper and QUICKER (time is money) for VW to just take them and crush/recycle them, ala cash for clunkers type of thing. But first..i expect a generous payout to TDI owners. IMO it is money better spent to give owners a hefty sum for really-taking-their cars, it leaves customers with a "good" feeling, the fact they got a "realyl good deal" for their used car. Creates a potential for customer retention, vs trying to save some money up front..in which case it most certainly would be more expensive over a few years time, and woudl certainly lose customer loyalty.
Awaiting June 21 anxiously.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

aj4066 said:


> I need one. Where did you get it?


https://www.etsy.com/listing/263457...query=Genuine high emissions&ref=sr_gallery_1


----------



## YikeGrymon (Sep 12, 2005)

aj4066 said:


> I need one. Where did you get it?





Numbersix said:


> https://www.etsy.com/listing/263457...query=Genuine high emissions&ref=sr_gallery_1


Clever sticker, totally my kind of humor, but seems like a bad idea.
An invitation for those with misdirected anger to make a (misdirected) statement n' smash yer winda.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

YikeGrymon said:


> Clever sticker, totally my kind of humor, but seems like a bad idea.
> An invitation for those with misdirected anger to make a (misdirected) statement n' smash yer winda.


I have one on my beetle and I'm 100% not concerned with any risk of window smashing.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Springtime for Volkswagen and Germany, a fix for the two litre;



autoblog said:


> Volkswagen gets approval for diesel cheat fix in Germany
> 
> VW says the cars will be fully compliant after repair, and performance won't be impacted.
> 
> ...





Press release said:


> Retrofit of Volkswagen Passat, CC and Eos begins
> • KBA issues approval for the software solution for over 800,000 cars
> 
> Today, Germany's Federal Motor Transport Authority (KBA) approved the technical solutions for the Volkswagen Passat, CC and Eos models with 2.0l TDI EA 189 engines. Over 800,000 vehicles affected by the diesel issue are now to be recalled as soon as possible. The affected owners will receive letters from Volkswagen and can then arrange a service appointment with a Volkswagen partner workshop without delay.
> ...


http://www.autoblog.com/2016/06/07/volkswagen-gets-approval-for-diesel-cheat-fix-in-germany/


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Would love to know what the fix entails. And we are stricter here so I'm not holding my breath that this magical unicorn fix that doesnt net any power or mpg loss doesnt change anything to the video or longevity of emissions equipment.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

The European "fix" will not address "real driving emissions", which is what EPA/CARB are really after.

Mark my words, the European "fix" will just make sure that if the engine is operating at one of the speed/load points that the (lame) NEDC encounters, even if it encounters that speed/load point outside of the NEDC testing procedure, it will be using the emission controls, instead of potentially not using it as has been the case up until now.

If you operate the engine at a speed/load point outside of those encountered in NEDC then all bets are off. It's rather likely that real-world driving emissions won't be affected much by VW's recall ... and nor will real-world fuel consumption nor power output, nor catalyst durability (since real-world driving conditions are mostly outside of NEDC speed/load conditions) nor (appreciable) AdBlue consumption (since real-world driving conditions are mostly outside of NEDC ...)

The North American fix, in which the emission controls are supposed to be effective all the time (i.e. in "real driving") is a whooooole different ball game.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

GoFaster said:


> The European "fix" will not address "real driving emissions", which is what EPA/CARB are really after.
> 
> Mark my words, the European "fix" will just make sure that if the engine is operating at one of the speed/load points that the (lame) NEDC encounters, even if it encounters that speed/load point outside of the NEDC testing procedure, it will be using the emission controls, instead of potentially not using it as has been the case up until now.
> 
> ...


Not true at all, VW just has to meet the US test procedures the problem is the US is much more strict on the amount of NOX allowed than Europe is and they don't allow stupid S**t like running special lubricants, unhooking accessories, etc. All US cars are only tested for emissions within the EPA test parameters so your European example still applies. No car is tested in anything resembling "real world" conditions, this is exactly why VW was able to get away with it for so long. Bob Lutz even alluded to the fact that car companies game the fuel econ and emissions tests because they are so standardized an non-realistic.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

^this.

like i said, cut the checks! Im waiting here:wave:


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

PolishSasquatch said:


> ^this.
> 
> like i said, cut the checks! Im waiting here:wave:



if i recall the euro 6 and ulev 2 emissions here, US test procedures require about 2.5x less NOx as euro 6 does.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Hush money and Malone Stage 2 here we come! Woo hoo!


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

JitteryJoe said:


> Not true at all, VW just has to meet the US test procedures ...


THAT is not true. That's the way it works in Europe - but not here. That's the sort of thinking that led VW to implement the "cheat". The cars pass FTP75 following the prescribed testing procedures just fine. Always have.

It's situations outside of FTP75 that this entire situation is about.

If fixing the North American models were a simple matter of making them pass "the test", they would have done it by now.

If "fixing" the European-market models extended beyond passing the official test procedure to the extent that EPA and CARB are expecting, they wouldn't have been able to get away with a simple re-flash.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Word from the lawyer type last evening:



> Dear Client,
> 
> Thank you again for the opportunity to represent you in the ongoing Volkswagen emissions litigation.
> 
> ...


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

Numbersix said:


> Now gracing the rear window of our TDI:


Expect your car to be keyed soon


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

*Lucky You*



aj4066 said:


> Word from the lawyer type last evening:


Lucky you, actual information. I am now receiving spam from the lawyer I signed on with....:banghead::thumbdown:


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

do I need to get one of these lawyers?


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

benjaminobscene said:


> do I need to get one of these lawyers?


I would avoid the one sending spam. :laugh:


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

JitteryJoe said:


> Not true at all, VW just has to meet the US test procedures the problem is the US is much more strict on the amount of NOX allowed than Europe is and they don't allow stupid S**t like running special lubricants, unhooking accessories, etc. All US cars are only tested for emissions within the EPA test parameters so your European example still applies. *No car is tested in anything resembling "real world" conditions, this is exactly why VW was able to get away with it for so long.* Bob Lutz even alluded to the fact that car companies game the fuel econ and emissions tests because they are so standardized an non-realistic.


Bolded part is untrue. I know it's popular to rag on the EPA, but their tests do a good job of representing speed, loads, acelerations seen in real world use. Better than most other countries. The reason VW got away with this for so long wasn't the test conditions (which _are _representative), but rather the test _method_. The EPA tests are on a chassis dyno inside of a lab. In the case of TDIs, this means the front wheels point straight ahead during the entire test and only the front wheels are driven. This seemingly allowed VW to identify when the car was being tested versus when it was driven on the road, and to have two different emissions profiles.

The reason the EPA tests are conducted in a lab environment on a dyno is two-fold: First the lab environment can be controlled (temp, humidity, no wind). If you conduct tests outside, you can't control those variables. If the EPA got a worse emissions and fuel economy result than the automaker, they would be irate. Secondly, the equipment to measure emissions can be quite large, and until recent times there wasn't equipment small enough to fit inside of a vehicle.

All that being said, there's a grain of truth to Lutz's comments. There are always games to be played in any test. Many of them are with the car and not just the test itself. However, the EPA tests are pretty good compared to the rest of the developed world.




GoFaster said:


> THAT is not true. That's the way it works in Europe - but not here. That's the sort of thinking that led VW to implement the "cheat".* The cars pass FTP75 following the prescribed testing procedures just fine. Always have.
> 
> It's situations outside of FTP75 that this entire situation is about.
> *
> ...


The bolded part isn't entirely true. The cars never actually "met" FTP75, because the defeat device was only using the emissions controls during EPA dyno testing. When researchers at WVU ran the TDIs at real world conditions similar to FTP75, they failed. This is by definition a defeat device, which is explicitly illegal. VW may have showed a passing test result, but the cars were always illegal because they contained a defeat device.


----------



## Navydub (Sep 30, 2006)

So I have a '13 sportwagen tdi. Recently, the sunroof began leaking profusely on the sportwagen, and I took it to the dealership for diagnosis and repair. The car is 34 months old, has 60,000 miles, and has an extended warranty, supposedly bumper to bumper for 70,000 miles. I figured this would easily be covered.

After evaluating the damage(which included a **** ton of interior water damage from the leak), it was determined the sunroof seal had failed. The damage totaled $4500 thanks to all the interior pieces that need replaced. Apparently "gaskets and seals" aren't covered under the extended warranty so the repairs were denied. Obviously, I threw the bull**** flag and took my issue to VWoA Customer Care. After a week of them jerking me around, I finally got a decision today saying they won't be paying for the repair or damage in any way. Oh, and I forgot to mention that fact that the water is leaking in and running behind the dash on the driver's side. Right over the fuse box, so I'm sure it's only a matter of time until the car has electrical issues as well.

With mine being a Gen1 TDI I was anticipating a buyback. I wasn't at all upset about the TDI scandal, and in fact planned to roll right into another Audi/VW product(Likely a Q5 3.0T). But after this debacle VAG can eat a dick, I'll take my buyback and take my money elsewhere.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

Navydub said:


> So I have a '13 sportwagen tdi. Recently, the sunroof began leaking profusely on the sportwagen, and I took it to the dealership for diagnosis and repair. The car is 34 months old, has 60,000 miles, and has an extended warranty, supposedly bumper to bumper for 70,000 miles. I figured this would easily be covered.
> 
> After evaluating the damage(which included a **** ton of interior water damage from the leak), it was determined the sunroof seal had failed. The damage totaled $4500 thanks to all the interior pieces that need replaced. Apparently "gaskets and seals" aren't covered under the extended warranty so the repairs were denied. Obviously, I threw the bull**** flag and took my issue to VWoA Customer Care. After a week of them jerking me around, I finally got a decision today saying they won't be paying for the repair or damage in any way. Oh, and I forgot to mention that fact that the water is leaking in and running behind the dash on the driver's side. Right over the fuse box, so I'm sure it's only a matter of time until the car has electrical issues as well.
> 
> With mine being a Gen1 TDI I was anticipating a buyback. I wasn't at all upset about the TDI scandal, and in fact planned to roll right into another Audi/VW product(Likely a Q5 3.0T). But after this debacle VAG can eat a dick, I'll take my buyback and take my money elsewhere.


Been there with a glow pug. I had a Gold warranty, what I thought was the best and would cover everything. No. I needed a "Platinum" warranty. My experience with VW here is they are looking for a reason NOT to do something verses finding a way to get things done and making the customer happy. They fail to realize it is much more expensive to replace a customer than to keep one.


----------



## GlhTroy (Aug 6, 2013)

From my experience with extended warranties is that they are not through the manufacturer. Every extended warranty I have ever seen or delta with is through a private company that the dealer chooses to do business with. That is just my experience from when I was a tech with a different manufacturer. Usually, sensors are rarely covered, or they will only cover the labor for a part that commonly fails. Which is usually happens to cost multiple hundreds of dollars. Most extended warranties I have ever been offered are a total scam in my opinion, you are better off putting that money aside for maintenance etc. Sorry about your luck Navydub, but on the bright side in a couple of hours we will be 8 days away from an answer. Hopefully one that will make most of us happy 🍺

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

someguy123 said:


> Expect your car to be keyed soon


I hope that's sarcasm since the entire rest of the country has ceased to care. :thumbup:


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

I've had mine for a little while now with no issues...










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

GlhTroy said:


> From my experience with extended warranties is that they are not through the manufacturer. Every extended warranty I have ever seen or delta with is through a private company that the dealer chooses to do business with. That is just my experience from when I was a tech with a different manufacturer. Usually, sensors are rarely covered, or they will only cover the labor for a part that commonly fails. Which is usually happens to cost multiple hundreds of dollars. Most extended warranties I have ever been offered are a total scam in my opinion, you are better off putting that money aside for maintenance etc. Sorry about your luck Navydub, but on the bright side in a couple of hours we will be 8 days away from an answer. Hopefully one that will make most of us happy 🍺
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I think we are 8 days away from another month of waiting... at least... The June meeting is just to get the ball rolling on the compensatory plan... not decide on it...


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

E CODE said:


> I think we are 8 days away from another month of waiting... at least... The June meeting is just to get the ball rolling on the compensatory plan... not decide on it...


Seriously? They just need to get it over with and stop leaving customers hanging.


----------



## Sporin (Feb 17, 1999)

It should be very clear by now that VW has no interest in taking care of their customers. They care only about paying as little as possible to meet the minimum requirements to get their butts out of the EPA fire. 

It's very shortsighted but given how poorly VW is thought of in the US car market (outside of a few small pockets of enthusiasts) it's not very surprising.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Mazda 3s said:


> Seriously? They just need to get it over with and stop leaving customers hanging.


Yes, if I read correctly, the 21st is when the plan will be outlined.. and there is another public waiting period until it actually gets approved. 

That said, I _think_ we will at least know what the proposal is in it's entirety on the 21st... because its for public discussion... but who knows...


----------



## 1 can 'rado (Jul 11, 2007)

So frustrating............I just want my money back already. :what::banghead:


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

One week out...then how long for VW to get their ducks in a row. In the meatime, I am shopping other brands to see what I am going to replace my JSW with. The longer this takes VW to get this to us, the less likely I am going to stay with a VW product. If they aren't showing an urgancy to keep me, why should I have loyalty to stay with them?


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

Navydub said:


> So I have a '13 sportwagen tdi. Recently, the sunroof began leaking profusely on the sportwagen, and I took it to the dealership for diagnosis and repair. The car is 34 months old, has 60,000 miles, and has an extended warranty, supposedly bumper to bumper for 70,000 miles. I figured this would easily be covered.
> 
> After evaluating the damage(which included a **** ton of interior water damage from the leak), it was determined the sunroof seal had failed. The damage totaled $4500 thanks to all the interior pieces that need replaced. Apparently "gaskets and seals" aren't covered under the extended warranty so the repairs were denied. Obviously, I threw the bull**** flag and took my issue to VWoA Customer Care. After a week of them jerking me around, I finally got a decision today saying they won't be paying for the repair or damage in any way. Oh, and I forgot to mention that fact that the water is leaking in and running behind the dash on the driver's side. Right over the fuse box, so I'm sure it's only a matter of time until the car has electrical issues as well.
> 
> With mine being a Gen1 TDI I was anticipating a buyback. I wasn't at all upset about the TDI scandal, and in fact planned to roll right into another Audi/VW product(Likely a Q5 3.0T). But after this debacle VAG can eat a dick, I'll take my buyback and take my money elsewhere.


Ugh. Not to add to your misery, but I can tell you a co-worker of mine with a TDI of about the same age just had the entire sunroof replaced for free out of warranty...


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Phil Pugliese said:


> One week out...then how long for VW to get their ducks in a row. In the meatime, I am shopping other brands to see what I am going to replace my JSW with. The longer this takes VW to get this to us, the less likely I am going to stay with a VW product. If they aren't showing an urgancy to keep me, why should I have loyalty to stay with them?


I'm already looking. I narrowed it down to the Hyundai Tucson Limited 1.6T and the Subaru Outback Limited with EyeSight. Given the superior fuel economy of the latter and it having more cargo space, I'm leaning towards the Subaru.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

Mazda 3s said:


> I'm already looking. I narrowed it down to the Hyundai Tucson Limited 1.6T and the Subaru Outback Limited with EyeSight. Given the superior fuel economy of the latter and it having more cargo space, I'm leaning towards the Subaru.


I ahve been looking too, like you, the Outback is at the top of my list. IF and this is a IF VW does something special to stay with a VW..I will consider a GSW LE. But if they give me X for my car, I am going to Subaru. If there is X+Y (Y as an addition amount of $) to stay, I will consider it.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

Mazda 3s said:


> I'm already looking. I narrowed it down to the Hyundai Tucson Limited 1.6T and the Subaru Outback Limited with EyeSight. Given the superior fuel economy of the latter and it having more cargo space, I'm leaning towards the Subaru.


We looked at the Outback very closely to replace the Sienna, and would have gone with it had the lease rates been better. 

Ended up with an Accord Sport because they are stupid cheap leases.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

Maximum_Download said:


> We looked at the Outback very closely to replace the Sienna, and would have gone with it had the lease rates been better.
> 
> Ended up with an Accord Sport because they are stupid cheap leases.


Leasing can be all about who has the deal. When the new Forester came out in 09, they had a 74% residual for 24 months..based on 15K. I did a 25K/yr mile lease for less than 300/mo with no OOP. If you are open minded with what you will drive, you can do great, especially with premiums.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

We are in the same boat, unless VW makes some REALLY good $$ reason to stay with VW... We are also probably moving to a Subaru.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

This thread has gotten much more active now that the TDi forum locked the other thread, not that I cam blame them but why now with being just a week out.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Navydub said:


> So I have a '13 sportwagen tdi. Recently, the sunroof began leaking profusely on the sportwagen, and I took it to the dealership for diagnosis and repair. The car is 34 months old, has 60,000 miles, and has an extended warranty, supposedly bumper to bumper for 70,000 miles. I figured this would easily be covered.
> 
> After evaluating the damage(which included a **** ton of interior water damage from the leak), it was determined the sunroof seal had failed. The damage totaled $4500 thanks to all the interior pieces that need replaced. Apparently "gaskets and seals" aren't covered under the extended warranty so the repairs were denied. Obviously, I threw the bull**** flag and took my issue to VWoA Customer Care. After a week of them jerking me around, I finally got a decision today saying they won't be paying for the repair or damage in any way. Oh, and I forgot to mention that fact that the water is leaking in and running behind the dash on the driver's side. Right over the fuse box, so I'm sure it's only a matter of time until the car has electrical issues as well.
> 
> With mine being a Gen1 TDI I was anticipating a buyback. I wasn't at all upset about the TDI scandal, and in fact planned to roll right into another Audi/VW product(Likely a Q5 3.0T). But after this debacle VAG can eat a dick, I'll take my buyback and take my money elsewhere.


What warranty and level did you have?


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Mazda 3s said:


> Seriously? They just need to get it over with and stop leaving customers hanging.


Yeah VW is taking way to long to resolve this... I've about had enough. We used the last of the $500 dealer card on our most recent repair (steering rack). And anything else that comes up, I fully intend to go after VW for reimbursement if they buy back the car.

On another note, I wish VW had something that we would actually but to replace the TDI Sportwagen. I bet I could get a killer deal. I need a 7 passenger suv/minivan for no more than 35k


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

^a Q7 perhaps?? (used)


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

AJB said:


> Yeah VW is taking way to long to resolve this... I've about had enough. We used the last of the $500 dealer card on our most recent repair (steering rack). And anything else that comes up, I fully intend to go after VW for reimbursement if they buy back the car.


That's my problem with this whole thing. If VW was proactive and got this resolved quickly, I would have stayed with the brand and simply bought a brand new GSW (albeit with the 1.8T) to replace my JSW. But by dragging it out, they've lost all goodwill with me and I'm looking elsewhere.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

*The wheels of justice move very slowly*

Don't despair about the pace of the settlement. I'm a trial attorney and I can tell you that these negotiations is going pretty quickly. I'm not privy to the negotiations but I've reviewed the transcripts of the hearings and it seems as if the deal is very close. There are procedural hurdles though plus a lot of parties so it difficult to get everyone on the same page.


----------



## GlhTroy (Aug 6, 2013)

E CODE said:


> I think we are 8 days away from another month of waiting... at least... The June meeting is just to get the ball rolling on the compensatory plan... not decide on it...


Hey man keep that negativity to your self we don't need it around here. Just kidding man lol. I hope you are wrong though. what I gather from my reading is that June 21st we will know what we will be compensated with and what amount cars will be bought back for also what those who want to keep their cars get and have to do. I do fully expect another 1-3 months aftdr june 21st for the plan to be rolled out and fully operational. Just in time to take advantage of end of year close outs from just about every manufacturer.

Troy 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

GlhTroy said:


> Hey man keep that negativity to your self we don't need it around here. Just kidding man lol. I hope you are wrong though. what I gather from my reading is that June 21st we will know what we will be compensated with and what amount cars will be bought back for also what those who want to keep their cars get and have to do. I do fully expect another 1-3 months aftdr june 21st for the plan to be rolled out and fully operational. Just in time to take advantage of end of year close outs from just about every manufacturer.


I agree, that we should know what the plan entails... but it won't be approved in June, I don't think... I believe the public actually gets a say in it too - there's likely another month or so after the 21st where the court will hear from the public on the proposal, and then act to approve or not based on feedback. Which I guess, is a good thing. 

And yes, I agree it will take many months for the process to actually start....


----------



## BeBop! (Jun 18, 2009)

Sporin said:


> It should be very clear by now that VW has no interest in taking care of their customers. They care only about paying as little as possible to meet the minimum requirements to get their butts out of the EPA fire.
> 
> It's very shortsighted but given how poorly VW is thought of in the US car market (outside of a few small pockets of enthusiasts) it's not very surprising.


VW never takes care of their customers (warranty claims specifically). The EPA scandal makes it even more apparent that they only care about saving their own asses.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

The good of this #Dieselgate is the willingness of dealers to negotiate on service on our TDI  I will be saving a lot more than I did for the 40K on our 2013 vs. our previous 2011 TDI :laugh:


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

BeBop! said:


> VW never takes care of their customers (warranty claims specifically). The EPA scandal makes it even more apparent that they only care about saving their own asses.


I think this might be a regional issue. I have had some really great success over the past 13 years with VW warranty work. my 03 GTI had the clutch and some other part replaced at 50XXXk under warranty. wasn't even a big issue to begin with. my 06 golf had the window motors and a wheel bearing replaced under warranty. both my jettas either had warranty work done for free, or in the case of my gli while it was out of warranty VW ate 90% of the cost of a repair because it was only like 4xxx over the warranty limit and I was a " loyal customer". I also had a bumper replaced for chipping too much because the service manager and VW agreed that the flex agent was incorrect in the paint, and no bumper should have 300 or so paint chips after a year, while the fenders and hood had less than 8. But hey, I respect that some regions or dealerships might not be so honourable.


----------



## YikeGrymon (Sep 12, 2005)

phospher5 said:


> I think this might be a regional issue. I have had some really great success over the past 13 years with VW warranty work....


I hasta agree. No complaints with stuff taken care of under warranty. Small things, not-so-small things. Been a VW guy since late 1999.

Meanwhile: I for one am seriously out of patience. Whatever happens on 6/28 better be pretty good.


----------



## NoDubJustYet (Mar 25, 2002)

BeBop! said:


> VW never takes care of their customers (*warranty claims specifically*). The EPA scandal makes it even more apparent that they only care about saving their own asses.


I had two rusty fenders replaced on a 2006 GTI with 14x,000 miles last December. No questions asked. This was the result a TSB - didn't even need to screw the 12-year Corrosion Warranty.

Lindsay VW, literally a stone's throw from HQ. LOL


----------



## porterrad (Aug 19, 2011)

The judge just announced approval of another delay.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

porterrad said:


> The judge just announced approval of another delay.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yay!

oh wait.:banghead:


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

porterrad said:


> The judge just announced approval of another delay.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A federal judge in San Francisco is giving Volkswagen and attorneys for vehicle owners affected by the company's emissions cheating scandal more time to reach a final settlement proposal.
U.S. District Court Judge Charles Breyer issued an order Wednesday extending the deadline to file the settlement deal by a week, to June 28. The new deadline also applies to any agreements Volkswagen reaches with the U.S. Justice Department and the Federal Trade Commission.
Breyer says he made the order at the request of former FBI director Robert Mueller, who is overseeing settlement talks. Breyer also cited the "highly technical nature" of the proposed settlements.
In April, the judge announced a tentative agreement that would give owners the option of having Volkswagen buy back or repair their vehicles.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

-highly technical nature aspect should have been figured out long before this came to light. VW knows how to fix this situation it has created. After all, they designed it.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

> After it is finalized, the agreement faces a public comment period and must get final judicial approval, which could come at a July 26 hearing. Judge Breyer did not delay that hearing.


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN0Z12VI


So the actual FINAL date hasn't been moved. -yet.


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> -highly technical nature aspect should have been figured out long before this came to light. VW knows how to fix this situation it has created. After all, they designed it.


I gathered that the "technical nature" referred more to situational than mechanical aspects of the the recall. More simply put, the "ifs, ands or buts" of all the cars, owners, potential situations and outcomes.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Geesixty said:


> I gathered that the "technical nature" referred more to situational than mechanical aspects of the the recall. More simply put, the "ifs, ands or buts" of all the cars, owners, potential situations and outcomes.


That's how I read it too, that for the buyback, they need enough time to sort out exactly _how_ to bring in 300,000 cars, which is almost as many cars as the whole company sells in a year. They also need to iron out the reverse logistics for sending those cars somewhere or even if they're being crushed, there will no doubt be a whole system of documenting a proving the fate of each vehicle, photos, paperwork, perhaps building a database of VINs that is reported to the government and so on. The fact that they may be doing a full receiving and shipping of nearly as many cars as they sell in a year is a big deal - and then there's still the other 250,000+ that are candidates for repairs. There's undoubtedly quite a lot to it and I suspect that VW was asking for something like a 3 year timeline at first and is now being pushed to complete all the buybacks and repairs in 18 months instead.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

*Fitch Ratings, Negative*

http://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwin...ate-recovery-details-thursday/2/#1db93d672e85


This is kind of hilarious. The governance of VW has not, and is not going to change. It has been this way for decades. As long as VW was making piles of money, everyone was happy. Now that there are some problems, the financial attack dogs come out. 


****
But for Fitch the overall worry about VW is the possibility of further skeletons in the cupboard, and the long-term gripe about the company’s unwieldy and shareholder unaccountable corporate governance.

“*The negative outlook reflects the possibility of further important findings to be uncovered as a result of ongoing investigations, the remaining uncertainty regarding the final impact of all criminal and regulatory liabilities and the potential for further reputational damage to the group and its brands. An upgrade is unlikely in the absence of stronger internal control and corporate governance, in line with main peers*,” Fitch said.
****

I promise, as soon as the financial picture improves Fitch will forget everything they said and the terrible governance scheme at VW will roll on. The other point I would like to make is, the scheme there, has yielded some great automobiles. Can you say Porsche, Audi or Bugatti?


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

aj4066 said:


> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN0Z12VI
> 
> 
> So the actual FINAL date hasn't been moved. -yet.


there is no final date.

the judge has discretion to when he can submit his ruling and finding(s). as of today that's still July 26th.


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

"VW, take your time. Whenever you're ready is good with us." Said. No. TDI. Owner. Ever.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Bird67 said:


> "VW, take your time. Whenever you're ready is good with us." Said. No. TDI. Owner. Ever.


If you are satisfied with your TDI and don't really want to replace it, the delay isn't really affecting you. It is only the anticipation of looking for a replacement that is an issue. I'm sure there are plenty of TDI owners who don't care about the delay and are happy putting more miles on their cars possibly at VW's expense if the buyback value doesn't take mileage into consideration and goes all the way back to last year's pre-scandal value.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

Bird67 said:


> "VW, take your time. Whenever you're ready is good with us." Said. No. TDI. Owner. Ever.


I assume you liked your car because you bought it, so what happened that made you so eager to get rid of it?


----------



## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

Bird67 said:


> "VW, take your time. Whenever you're ready is good with us." Said. No. TDI. Owner. Ever.



I can sympathize with this statement and I really like my car still. I would prefer to keep it, but if that means getting it "fixed" then I would rather take the buy back. 
I am annoied at the fact that i dont know what the future for MY car is still.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Bird67 said:


> "VW, take your time. Whenever you're ready is good with us." Said. No. TDI. Owner. Ever.


I believe VW will be rolling out new customer service helpers soon.










"Are you satisfied with your car?"


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

spockcat said:


> If you are satisfied with your TDI and don't really want to replace it, the delay isn't really affecting you. It is only the anticipation of looking for a replacement that is an issue. I'm sure there are plenty of TDI owners who don't care about the delay and are happy putting more miles on their cars possibly at VW's expense if the buyback value doesn't take mileage into consideration and goes all the way back to last year's pre-scandal value.


That's kinda what I'm hoping for. I'd love to be the last person to turn it in and get like 3 years of free driving. :laugh:


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

spockcat said:


> If you are satisfied with your TDI and don't really want to replace it, the delay isn't really affecting you. It is only the anticipation of looking for a replacement that is an issue. I'm sure there are plenty of TDI owners who don't care about the delay and are happy putting more miles on their cars possibly at VW's expense if the buyback value doesn't take mileage into consideration and goes all the way back to last year's pre-scandal value.


We love our 2010 JSW TDI, but here's the problem for us: In the last 3 weeks, both the A/C and the head unit have died. Both are very expensive to fix and I don't want to sink 4 figures into a car which might get bought back in a few months. So now one of us has to commute in a car with no A/C and no music until... who knows? The situation is a total PITA.


----------



## Jack-DE (Aug 16, 2013)

GTI 20v said:


> We love our 2010 JSW TDI, but here's the problem for us: In the last 3 weeks, both the A/C and the head unit have died. Both are very expensive to fix and I don't want to sink 4 figures into a car which might get bought back in a few months. So now one of us has to commute in a car with no A/C and no music until... who knows? The situation is a total PITA.


Yep, many TDI owners are in a position like this. Then there are the ones who were in an accident and had to replace their de-valued TDI's. Most likely the settlement they are working on right now is going to address those owners, too.


----------



## alanaround (Jun 8, 2011)

^I'm a similar position. I have a 2010 Jetta that needs it's 150k km service. So that's timing belt, pump and all the trimmings.. I've been quoted around $1500 CAD by the dealer, so I can use my $1k giftcards + $500ish out of my own pocket.. but part of me wants to do a basic service and wait and see, as the $500 card+my own cash is better spent elsewhere if i'm then going to chop it in in 6 months.. :banghead:


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

Vicelord said:


> I assume you liked your car because you bought it, so what happened that made you so eager to get rid of it?


You assume wrong. I loved my TDI then and still do. I want this BS resolved so I can know what if anything I'll be forced or manipulated into doing with it. You 2.0 people will find out sooner. We 3.0 people may not know for months to come.


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

spockcat said:


> If you are satisfied with your TDI and don't really want to replace it, the delay isn't really affecting you. It is only the anticipation of looking for a replacement that is an issue. I'm sure there are plenty of TDI owners who don't care about the delay and are happy putting more miles on their cars possibly at VW's expense if the buyback value doesn't take mileage into consideration and goes all the way back to last year's pre-scandal value.


The delay affects me because I don't like needless uncertainty. I want VW and EPA to decide they were wrong, the 3.0 is fine, nothing needs to be changed. I am concerned they will impose a software fix I don't want. I'd like to know if that's what they're gonna do.


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

oldschool eighty8 said:


> I can sympathize with this statement and I really like my car still. I would prefer to keep it, but if that means getting it "fixed" then I would rather take the buy back.
> I am annoied at the fact that i dont know what the future for MY car is still.


Exactly as I feel.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

alanaround said:


> ^I'm a similar position. I have a 2010 Jetta that needs it's 150k km service. So that's timing belt, pump and all the trimmings.. I've been quoted around $1500 CAD by the dealer, so I can use my $1k giftcards + $500ish out of my own pocket.. but part of me wants to do a basic service and wait and see, as the $500 card+my own cash is better spent elsewhere if i'm then going to chop it in in 6 months.. :banghead:


I don't always buy a car that requires maintenance, but when I do, I always buy one that may end up being bought back by the manufacturer whose already given me nearly enough money to pay for the needed service  

We need more petrol engine VW people in here pitching up some real issues to be upset about :laugh:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Bird67 said:


> I want this BS resolved so I can know what if anything I'll be forced or manipulated into doing with it.


You don't have to take any articles of clothing off, no matter what they say.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Bird67 said:


> The delay affects me because I don't like needless uncertainty. I want VW and EPA to decide they were wrong, the 3.0 is fine, nothing needs to be changed. I am concerned they will impose a software fix I don't want. I'd like to know if that's what they're gonna do.


Since you don't list your vehicle in your profile, we don't know what you own. Most people here are 2.0 owners because of the volume of 2.0 sold compared to 3.0 engine models. I understand the issue of uncertainty. But if you still like your vehicle and want o keep it, assuming the Feds don't force a buyback, you probably have a year or so before any fix is going to filter down to the dealer level and maybe another year before you are "forced" to apply the fix, if ever.


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

spockcat said:


> Since you don't list your vehicle in your profile, we don't know what you own. Most people here are 2.0 owners because of the volume of 2.0 sold compared to 3.0 engine models. I understand the issue of uncertainty. But if you still like your vehicle and want o keep it, assuming the Feds don't force a buyback, you probably have a year or so before any fix is going to filter down to the dealer level and maybe another year before you are "forced" to apply the fix, if ever.


Point taken, profile fixed. I will be relieved if the solution allows 3.0 owners to leave our vehicles unaltered. Even so, I admit I'm affected by those who have posted about their TDIs being damaged or wrecked and having to accept lesser value based on depressed pricing. We're all one idiot driver blowing a stop sign away from taking on that fight. And then there's the resale value itself. 

I like my Touareg TDI a lot, among the best vehicles I've ever owned. But that doesn't mean I want to own it for the rest of its useful life, which seems to be the plan for many of you who are nonplussed by this whole fiasco. I respect that choice; mine's different is all. I've enjoyed owning a wide variety of enjoyable vehicles in my life. Remember the silly adage, he who has the most toys, wins? For me, it's he who has owned the most different and interesting vehicles, wins. Okay, that's an exaggeration, but it is a fair analysis of my historic car ownership patterns. If I want to sell/trade it for something else in six months, or a year or two, the persisting uncertainty hinders my ability to do so. 

Of course, I recognize that this is a 99%, first-world problem. But thinking about my VW is more fun than thinking about shootings, mass murder, domestic terror and gun control.


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

Silly_me said:


> You don't have to take any articles of clothing off, no matter what they say.


 :thumbup:


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

thegoose said:


> That's kinda what I'm hoping for. I'd love to be the last person to turn it in and get like 3 years of free driving. :laugh:


I'm 100% on board for being the last one to turn my car in, especially if there's no penalty for doing so. I drive the **** out of my beetle, and in about a year's time, that's going to stop, and I'd love to be handed a nice check to go and buy a toy, not having to commute any longer.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

Bird67 said:


> You assume wrong. I loved my TDI then and still do.


So i assumed right. 

Meanwhile life goes on and when someone tells me I have to do something with my car I'll make an informed decision mostly thanks to this thread and get it done, then life will continue as normal. You should cry about it some more.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> The good of this #Dieselgate is the willingness of dealers to negotiate on service on our TDI  I will be saving a lot more than I did for the 40K on our 2013 vs. our previous 2011 TDI :laugh:


So I was able to get my dealer to come down just over $150 + tax based on another PHX area dealers quote/coupon..... I gave my dealer the chance since I have purchased twice from them and would prefer to keep the tax $$ in my city. Car goes in tomorrow at 39K miles.


----------



## nemo1ner (May 5, 2004)

We moved to Germany a couple of months ago and just picked up a 2012 Polo 1.6 TDI BE from the dealer. It was a toss up between this and a BMW 118d, but since the Polo came with 3 years of free oil and fuel services, we couldn't say no.  










Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## alanaround (Jun 8, 2011)

Silly_me said:


> I don't always buy a car that requires maintenance, but when I do, I always buy one that may end up being bought back by the manufacturer whose already given me nearly enough money to pay for the needed service
> 
> We need more petrol engine VW people in here pitching up some real issues to be upset about :laugh:


TLDR; STFU and get the almost free major service done? Got it.


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

Vicelord said:


> So i assumed right.
> 
> Meanwhile life goes on and when someone tells me I have to do something with my car I'll make an informed decision mostly thanks to this thread and get it done, then life will continue as normal. You should cry about it some more.


Cool! Thanks! Helpful to know that I'm wrong to want VW to reach its resolution sooner rather than later. With that excellent advice, I'm going off to cry now as you recommend. I'll be wishing I was as centered as you!


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

alanaround said:


> TLDR; STFU and get the almost free major service done? Got it.


Wait, you're in Canada? I thought all you wanted from VW was a solemn apology and a firm handshake.


----------



## FuelInMyVeins (Feb 8, 2012)

Silly_me said:


> Wait, you're in Canada? I thought all you wanted from VW was a solemn apology and a firm handshake.


:laugh:


----------



## alanaround (Jun 8, 2011)

Silly_me said:


> Wait, you're in Canada? I thought all you wanted from VW was a solemn apology and a firm handshake.


They've gone too far this time buddy..

Canada v VWoC, earlier:


----------



## porterrad (Aug 19, 2011)

*Buyback rumor*

Bloomberg reported 5 hours ago: 

"Volkswagen AG will submit its $10 billion plan this month to fix a half-million emissions-cheating cars or get them off U.S. roads even though it’s awaiting regulators’ sign-off on how to retrofit the vehicles, a person familiar with the matter said. About $6.5 billion will go to car owners and $3.5 billion to the U.S. government and California regulators, said the person, who asked not to be identified because the deal isn’t public yet..."

$6.5 bil averages $16,250 per TDI if there are 400,000(?) TDIs to buy back. Is this the promised "generous compensation package"?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

porterrad said:


> $6.5 bil averages $16,250 per TDI if there are 400,000(?) TDIs to buy back. Is this the promised "generous compensation package"?


At least for the US market, it's estimated that about 480,000 2.0 TDIs are on the road, with only about 300,000 of them being the older, irreparable models. So the buyback will probably apply to those ones and the other 180,000 will get a fix and some cash. So most of that $6.5 billion only has to go towards 300,000 cars, not 400,000, with the remainder going towards a fix + some lost resale compensation cash. Another factor is that participation may be as low as 50% or so nationwide. People are stupidly lazy, so many will simply refuse to let their car be repurchased or repaired, which drives the cost way down for VW. So if it turns out to be 50% participation, that means only 150,000 buybacks and only 90,000 repairs.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

ust driving home I took a look at my average MPG in the Jetta...42MPG overall for the last 1500 miles. I switch it over to average for the last trip..51.7MPG. Fifty effin one MPG on a trip that I was driving between 70 and 80MPH. Does the car pollute 40x what is allowed...But is the allowed number realistic? Is 40 plus MPG with a higher NOx much worse than burning 25% more gas by getting 30MPG? Will we see another TDI? If so, what will a complant TDI get in economy and what will the cost be in performance? Even a 10% cost, will net me an average of 37-38MPG which is still better than any other option out there. Will the 2015 TDI's that are on the ground be available? Is VW's new commitment to electric be the demise of diesels for them?


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

AZGolf said:


> At least for the US market, it's estimated that about 480,000 2.0 TDIs are on the road, with only about 300,000 of them being the older, irreparable models. So the buyback will probably apply to those ones and the other 180,000 will get a fix and some cash. So most of that $6.5 billion only has to go towards 300,000 cars, not 400,000, with the remainder going towards a fix + some lost resale compensation cash. Another factor is that participation may be as low as 50% or so nationwide. People are stupidly lazy, so many will simply refuse to let their car be repurchased or repaired, which drives the cost way down for VW. So if it turns out to be 50% participation, that means only 150,000 buybacks and only 90,000 repairs.


But wait. For every car VW can't buy back or repair due to stupidity or laziness, won't VW be paying a fine to EPA? Otherwise VW is incentivized the wrong way. So that would change your numbers, I suspect.


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

Phil Pugliese said:


> ust driving home I took a look at my average MPG in the Jetta...42MPG overall for the last 1500 miles. I switch it over to average for the last trip..51.7MPG. Fifty effin one MPG on a trip that I was driving between 70 and 80MPH. Does the car pollute 40x what is allowed...But is the allowed number realistic? Is 40 plus MPG with a higher NOx much worse than burning 25% more gas by getting 30MPG? Will we see another TDI? If so, what will a complant TDI get in economy and what will the cost be in performance? Even a 10% cost, will net me an average of 37-38MPG which is still better than any other option out there. Will the 2015 TDI's that are on the ground be available? Is VW's new commitment to electric be the demise of diesels for them?


My Golf calculated my last tank average at 41.6 mpg. I calculated it myself and got 38. This is typical for my car; it overestimates mpg on the computer by at least 3-4 mpg. Our other car (Accord) gets nearly 37 (and its computations are accurate!). Guess I shouldn't be surprised by the VW lie, huh?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

jen_madcity said:


> My Golf calculated my last tank average at 41.6 mpg. I calculated it myself and got 38. This is typical for my car; it overestimates mpg on the computer by at least 3-4 mpg. Our other car (Accord) gets nearly 37 (and its computations are accurate!). Guess I shouldn't be surprised by the VW lie, huh?
> k


I call BS, a VW would never cheat the numbers.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

Phil Pugliese said:


> ust driving home I took a look at my average MPG in the Jetta...42MPG overall for the last 1500 miles. I switch it over to average for the last trip..51.7MPG. Fifty effin one MPG on a trip that I was driving between 70 and 80MPH. *Does the car pollute 40x what is allowed...But is the allowed number realistic? Is 40 plus MPG with a higher NOx much worse than burning 25% more gas by getting 30MPG? Will we see another TDI? If so, what will a complant TDI get in economy and what will the cost be in performance? *Even a 10% cost, will net me an average of 37-38MPG which is still better than any other option out there. Will the 2015 TDI's that are on the ground be available? Is VW's new commitment to electric be the demise of diesels for them?



Yes, it's called the Chevy Cruze.

I don't have much sympathy for VW on this. If they thought the regulations were unreasonable given the technology available today, they should've lobbied for different rules.


----------



## prometheus_ (Oct 6, 2009)

The last couple pages of this thread has been "My car needs X, but I'm not taking care of it because I expect to be compensated".

**** right off :laugh: :facepalm:

Your car is in need of a tbelt service and you don't want to pay for it?
Well they sure as hell aren't going to pay for a blown up engine.

The AC compressor and head unit in your car died, and you're suffering because you don't want to fix it?
Stop pretending that dieselgate is your problem. You wouldn't have fixed it regardless or a potential buyback.


The sheer number of people who are offended by this is absolutely ****ing comical.
Born with a rod in their ass, and complaining that the 300k worth of largely trouble-free miles on their CJAAs are worth getting outraged over.

If you want to blame somebody for something, blame the numbskulls "testing" new cars.
Rather than plugging in a computer and reading a screen, do an _actual_ test like they are doing now.
There's a reason why everyone failed the new test :screwy:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Bloomburg is reporting:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...with-10-bln-diesel-accord-to-devise-fix-later



Bloomburg said:


> Carmaker still needs regulatory approval for retrofitting cars
> VW faces June 28 deadline for submitting diesel-cheat remedy
> 
> Volkswagen AG will submit its $10 billion plan this month to fix a half-million emissions-cheating cars or get them off U.S. roads even though it’s awaiting regulators’ sign-off on how to retrofit the vehicles, a person familiar with the matter said.
> ...


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

This still sounds like every North American owner will be offered a buy back..... Or, if they really like their car and don't want a buyback, they can ask for it to be repaired.... and it might actually get that repair. 

I can't see them winning the owners support if they force some of them to go on this perpetual wait list. 

Remember, this is all about getting out of 500,000 lawsuits from owners, and the regulatory lawsuits too... solving the EPA/CARB lawsuit at the expense of a half million customers isn't going to work for them.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

It sounds to be like a buyback will be offered or you can take a fix that may never actually happen. The last reports leaned that after a fix is when you would receive the $5k. If a fix is never actually going to happen, when do you get your loot? 

The few days should be interesting as I am sure more 'leaked' information will begin to surface.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

prometheus_ said:


> The last couple pages of this thread has been "My car needs X, but I'm not taking care of it because I expect to be compensated".
> 
> **** right off :laugh: :facepalm:
> 
> ...



I don't think you understand where us owners are coming from at all. A few weeks ago I finally had my steering rack replaced. If it wasn't for the extended warranty and the VW Dealer card. I would have just drove the car and waited for the Dieselgate outcome.

You know how when are thinking about trading in a car that has issues? And what do they say, don't fix anything, you wasting your money. Basically the same thing applies here.

The issue is the prolonged uncertainty. We don't know if the buy back values will be based on mileage from Sept. 2015, or at current day turn in. Dents, cracked windshield, minus minus minus...or maybe not. We just don't know and thats the crux of the problem.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Irony has many subtle sides said:


> John German, a project manager with the International Council on Clean Transportation,



:laugh:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

*Martin Winterkorn is under investigation in Germany for alleged market manipulation.*



BBC.com said:


> Former Volkswagen boss under investigation in Germany
> 
> Former Volkswagen boss Martin Winterkorn is under investigation in Germany for alleged market manipulation.
> 
> ...


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> *Martin Winterkorn is under investigation in Germany for alleged market manipulation.*


Whoa! He in trouuuuuuuuble!


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

prometheus_ said:


> The last couple pages of this thread has been "My car needs X, but I'm not taking care of it because I expect to be compensated".
> 
> **** right off :laugh: :facepalm:
> 
> ...


Not sure where you're going with the 2nd part, but blame rests squarely on VW. First, the industry relies on "self certification" where the EPA defines a test procedure and automakers certify products using those procedures. EPA does selective auditing. This was a compromise between the EPA's mission (regulate emissions) and the amount of funding allocated by Congress (limited).

Secondly, the reason cars are certified in a controlled lab environment is because you need to control outside variables. If you tested cars outside by driving on the road, different drivers would get different results on different days and different roads. This would put the EPA at legal risk, and probably open even more avenues for cheating.

Finally, broad-scale emissions testing on the road is really only useful for investigation, not certification. The equipment is quite bulky, likely very fragile, and not really something an automaker would want to deal with on an on-going basis during new vehicle development. They'd prefer to pull a car into a lab and spend 8-12 hours doing engineering work.

The EPA has already said it will be doing on-road "over checks". There is a key distinction between the words "over check" and "certification". The over checks are to look for cheating, not for certification. The root cause of the cheating was in VW's software in the engine control module. Software is protected by Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). The DMCA prohibits access to the software, which means VW's secrets were locked safety behind a legal firewall.

I know it's popular to blame the EPA... but let's think through this. The vast majority of the industry treats self-certification as what it is: a privilege. VW took that privilege for granted.


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

prometheus_ said:


> The AC compressor and head unit in your car died, and you're suffering because you don't want to fix it?
> Stop pretending that dieselgate is your problem. You wouldn't have fixed it regardless or a potential buyback.


Please tell me why I should spend over a thousand dollars fixing my car when, in all likelihood, it is getting bought back anyway? Of course I would fix the a/c and head unit if I were going to be owning the car more than a few months. I've done all the maintenance to it so far. I did do the 80k service in full (~$800) *after* dieselgate was announced. Please be honest and admit you're just looking for something to be pissy about.


----------



## tacticalbeaver (Apr 27, 2006)

I expect that you will end up waiting much longer than a few months for VW to buy back your car.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

Most TDI owners are quite diligent, as they expect their cars to last a long time. I changed the windshield on mine within a week when I got my first crack. Did all my sched maintenance on time, tbelt, fuel filters, DSG etc. After diesel gate was announced and I got a crack on my new windshield....why fix it? Especially since our cars sits now. 
Would you put brand new tires on a lease you are about to trade back in?

I, on the other hand expect a pretty swift buyback procedure. They were very quick with the loyalty money. True-the logistics are far more advanced to take in 500k cars vs mail out some plastic. However I expect the dealers to start taking in cars pretty soon. I am assuming VW will want to appeal to the owners as quick as possible, and deal with the dealers later to arrange further transportation to some mass temporary storage facilities..

But....this is jsut my opinion....hope i guess


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

seftonm said:


> I expect that you will end up waiting much longer than a few months for VW to buy back your car.


If that is the case then I will fix my car and keep driving it until it gets bought back. But it makes no sense whatsoever to make a 4-figure decision about the car before the buyback/fix details get released on June 28.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

I am due for an oil change soon, not going to bother until I know what is going on, chances are I am not going to do it. I have $400 of my 500 left on my VW card, since my dealer is also a Subie dealer I am not going to waste it at this point. I am going to get either a Subie or another VW when this goes back.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

Phil Pugliese said:


> I am due for an oil change soon, not going to bother until I know what is going on, chances are I am not going to do it. I have $400 of my 500 left on my VW card, since my dealer is also a Subie dealer I am not going to waste it at this point. I am going to get either a Subie or another VW when this goes back.


i ended up buying a few cases of 5w30 vw 507 oil with the remaining dealer money after replacing the windshield through them. audi 5.2 v10 needs min vw 502, and can take 5w30 so I am stocked up for a while


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

You guys going to spend the 25 cents at the gas station to put air in your tires? If more than 25% these cars get bought back within 6 months, I will be surprised. It will take a long time for them to all get bought back. We already discussed this 20 pages ago. :screwy:


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

spockcat said:


> You guys going to spend the 25 cents at the gas station to put air in your tires? If more than 25% these cars get bought back within 6 months, I will be surprised. It will take a long time for them to all get bought back. We already discussed this 20 pages ago. :screwy:


Ah yes, I forgot to consult my handy Dieselgate TCL Thread Index to see if this particular subject has been discussed in the prior 300 pages. Thank god you're here to enlighten us. :screwy:


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

spockcat said:


> If more than 25% these cars get bought back within 6 months, I will be surprised. It will take a long time for them to all get bought back. We already discussed this 20 pages ago. :screwy:


Says you. I already took the 29th off work. I plan on being at the dealership that AM ready to walk out with a check or drive out in a new Golf Sportwagen Alltrack TDI 6sp manual which will be an even up trade for my 2010 JSW. :laugh:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

While the initial proposal hopefully becomes public knowledge next week, it then goes into a public comment period. One can only hope this doesn't get drug out, but I doubt that it will be within 90- days before anything gets finalized. 

Ignoring minor routine maintenance like an oil change is just :screwy:


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Phil Pugliese said:


> Says you. I already took the 29th off work. I plan on being at the dealership that AM ready to walk out with a check or drive out in a new Golf Sportwagen Alltrack TDI 6sp manual which will be an even up trade for my 2010 JSW. :laugh:


This post made me think of


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

aj4066 said:


> Ignoring minor routine maintenance like an oil change is just :screwy:


I'm using this thread to keep up with what's happening but every time I read about someone wanting to stop maintaining his car I die a little bit inside. Surely everyone in this thread understands that even if VW announced tomorrow that all cars will be bought back, you'll still be driving your car for a minimum of 6 months, long enough for lawyers to argue and everyone sue and try to change what's already been decided.

Maintain your cars you ****s.


----------



## YikeGrymon (Sep 12, 2005)

I like how the last paragraph here suggests that someone or something other than VWs own actions did the plunging. Duh.

Meanwhile, I'll be VERY ticked, as I'm sure many will, if buyback figures don't include reimbursement for any maintenance or repairs that owners or lessees covered since The News broke in September. I mean, VW will do everything it can to sell those bought-back cars elsewhere. We haven't been taking care of them for VW's benefit. Duh.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

With TDI toxic, VW customers are moving on



> VW has a long hill to climb with customer relations
> 
> Dennis Gaudet has had some loyal VW customers.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kzoo (Jun 23, 2011)

Wait, am I missing something? I don't check this thread too often because it's always pages and pages of some ass bag that doesn't even own a TDI complaining about something BUT (back on topic) the last I knew the details were supposed to come out today (6-21-16). Whats with all this talk of the 28th now?!



Nevermind. ^this guy was typing the same time I was...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

> He says new-car sales at his dealership, where diesels accounted for more than a third of his sales pre-scandal, fell 40 percent last month. He’s selling an average of about 75 new cars a month this year, down from 100 last year.


Somebody is not good at math, _at all_.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> Somebody is not good at math, _at all_.


Saw that too. Where is an editor when you need one.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Phil Pugliese said:


> Saw that too. Where is an editor when you need one.


I think the 40% is comparing May 2016 with May 2015, and the 75 versus 100 is an average drop from Jan to present.... At least, that would make some sense of the numbers... 

Still horrible writing though.


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

Kzoo said:


> Wait, am I missing something? I don't check this thread too often because it's always pages and pages of some ass bag that doesn't even own a TDI complaining about something BUT (back on topic) the last I knew the details were supposed to come out today (6-21-16). Whats with all this talk of the 28th now?!
> 
> 
> 
> Nevermind. ^this guy was typing the same time I was...


The judge delayed the deadline for submission to June 28th per request of the settlement master (R Mueller). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

Well this article sure is interesting:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertels...swagen-then-at-least-for-diesel/#239e3aeab630


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

Vicelord said:


> I'm using this thread to keep up with what's happening but every time I read about someone wanting to stop maintaining his car I die a little bit inside. Surely everyone in this thread understands that even if VW announced tomorrow that all cars will be bought back, you'll still be driving your car for a minimum of 6 months, long enough for lawyers to argue and everyone sue and try to change what's already been decided.
> 
> Maintain your cars you ****s.


First of all, you have no idea how long it will take for VW to start buying back cars. "a minimum of 6 months" is pure speculation on your part.

Do you know the difference between maintenance and repairs? For example, I did the 80k service in full. I did NOT repair the a/c or head unit. People in this thread are primarily talking about deferring *repairs* until the buyback details are known, which is smart.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

are we taking bets on average buy back price?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

GTI 20v said:


> First of all, you have no idea how long it will take for VW to start buying back cars. "a minimum of 6 months" is pure speculation on your part.
> 
> Do you know the difference between maintenance and repairs? For example, I did the 80k service in full. I did NOT repair the a/c or head unit. People in this thread are primarily talking about deferring *repairs* until the buyback details are known, which is smart.


Yes, deferring routine maintenance such as an oil change isn't smart. That's what I was referencing with my not spending 25 cents to put air in the tires. A/C isn't needed to drive (as long as you aren't in some place like AZ right now). Same with replacing the radio. So as long as you can stand the quiet heat, no sense doing the repairs. 

As for length of time required for VW to buy back the vehicles. Remember that first all the lawyers and public will get time to comment. Then VW has to put in place the program. And then there are 200,000 to 400,000 cars to buy back. Assuming they are using the 600+ dealer network to handle this, each dealer will have to handle an average of 500 or more cars. No way that they have the manpower and space to handle them all at once. That will take months if not a year to get them all back. This is why most people here feel that the end of this debacle isn't anywhere near yet.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

that 500k tdi figure we keep tossing around. Is that the amount sold, or the approximate number remaining in service at the moment?
I figure at least 1/8 minium have been crashed/totalled since 09..

edit nvm, 200-400 is a reasonable estimate you provided.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

I would imagine a good portion of the newer cars will stay on the road with a fix. I doubt more than 200K will be bought back, many will take the hush money and the fix. The older cars will have to be bought back because they cannot be fixed. Now, the only way they could be required to be bought back would be at original selling price, if not, some will stay on the road killing puppies and kittens at every turn.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

PolishSasquatch said:


> that 500k tdi figure we keep tossing around. Is that the amount sold, or the approximate number remaining in service at the moment?
> I figure at least 1/8 minium have been crashed/totalled since 09..
> 
> edit nvm, 200-400 is a reasonable estimate you provided.


I think we are up to 600,000 when you throw in all the other 2.0 TDI models by Audi and the 3.0 TDI models of VW, Porsche and Audi. Good thing they VW didn't also sell Skoda and Seat here. And we also don't know whether the late models with ad-blue will be subject to buyback or just a repair. The amount of info we have is the most bare minimum at this time.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Phil Pugliese said:


> I would imagine a good portion of the newer cars will stay on the road with a fix. I doubt more than 200K will be bought back, many will take the hush money and the fix. The older cars will have to be bought back because they cannot be fixed. Now, the only way they could be required to be bought back would be at original selling price, if not, some will stay on the road killing puppies and kittens at every turn.


What is your definition of older cars? I thought that many of these didn't have the ad-blue system (SCR). But I don't know on which models and what specific time period they were introduced. Someone needs to come up with a definitive chart of models with and without SCR and the years for them. Then overlay the quantity sold of each model for each year. I think it is a lot more than 200,000 that are the old diesel particulate filter (DPF) system. 

As for the numbers of DPF owners willing to go buyback, yes that will depend on the terms and conditions of the buyback and also the repair requirements for the hush money. Same with SCR owners, if VW offers buyback on those too. 

One would think that if someone could get even last year's pre-scandal value plus $5000 for their car in a buyback they most likely would do that. Only diehard TDI lovers would care about keeping their kitten/puppy killing machines.

Closest chart for 2.0 models I found but it doesn't say which is DPF and SCR.








From here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=448336


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

GTI 20v said:


> First of all, you have no idea how long it will take for VW to start buying back cars. "a minimum of 6 months" is pure speculation on your part.
> 
> Do you know the difference between maintenance and repairs? For example, I did the 80k service in full. I did NOT repair the a/c or head unit. People in this thread are primarily talking about deferring *repairs* until the buyback details are known, which is smart.


Here's what happens during legal proceedings:

VW says here's what we are going to do - the court says "yeah this looks good now we are opening it up to public for comments"
Someone doesn't like the idea and gets a bunch of other people to side with them.
The group of people are approached by a law firm who says they will file a class action.
We are now delayed.
VW could counter-sue.

The point is that we don't just hear "VW plan approved" and then cars start being purchased back the following day - this is going to be a legal process and if you think not maintaining your car while you wait for it to play out is a good idea then that's something you'll have to learn on your own, but I'm telling you it's not a good idea. My _speculation_ is you'll be driving your car next year.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Phil Pugliese said:


> I would imagine a good portion of the newer cars will stay on the road with a fix. I doubt more than 200K will be bought back, many will take the hush money and the fix. The older cars will have to be bought back because they cannot be fixed. Now, the only way they could be required to be bought back would be at original selling price, if not, some will stay on the road killing puppies and kittens at every turn.


Meanwhile, latest reports indicate that a fix isn't possible. -in fact, VW may just ask you to pledge to have your vehicle fixed.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> One would think that if someone could get even last year's pre-scandal value plus $5000 for their car in a buyback they most likely would do that.


For my 2012 which was just up for sale when this broke and I have not been able to sell without losing my shirt, pre scandal price and a couple bucks to cover the expense of owning a vehicle I didn't want for almost a year is fine by me, don't care about profiting just not losing. I'll take 5k for sure though 

Depending on the terms I can't decide if I'd rather sell it and take some cash or just let them buy it back, would need to see how the taxes worked on all that when the details are announced if either of those are even options. Did a full 80k, new tires, DPF only has 25k on it, and it's detailed beyond a point you'd see on virtually any car sitting on a used car line, would be a total waste if it was destroyed if that is the plan for the buybacks. Been stored inside and driven about 10-12 times since all that work was done and crap hit the fan last sept.

I have a potential buyer for it at a price about halfway between current and pre scandal so if the payout covers the difference and a little I'd rather him have it. 



> Only diehard TDI lovers would care about keeping their kitten/puppy killing machines.


A vehicle spec'd as my 2015 is only available as a TDI. There is nothing I want to replace it with, other vehicles I want but not replace this particular vehicle with. I'd consider holding out on any compensation on the 2015 to see what arrives and pricing of a B9 A4 avant. Even then I don't really want it more than my GSW other than AWD, which I have a 4x4 and an awd car anyway when needed. An alltrack is interesting but even though I'd not want a current 1.8TSI SEL trim GSW due to the auto I am less a fan of DSG. 

Basically it's exactly what I want, why would I get rid of it? Especially since it is the least murderous. 

My 1.8t (20v not current) (~21mpg) and my 2.0T (currently says 19.6mpg) get about half what my TDI (~38) does on my commute for mpg and 93 cost ~50 cents more a gallon right now than diesel near me 2.39 vs 2.89. Love it or not currently makes most sense for me.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> Closest chart for 2.0 models I found but it doesn't say which is DPF and SCR.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



5N DPF only

4S DPF and SCR Early version

AL DPF and SCR later version


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> 5N DPF only
> 
> 4S DPF and SCR Early version
> 
> AL DPF and SCR later version


Thank you for the clarification. Given that, there are a very LARGE number of VW (and the Audi A3) models that are the "early DPF" only. Thus a very large number of cars that would/could be subject to buyback as repairs may not be possible.

Maybe only 2015 models and the 2012-2015 Passat could be repaired? (not including the 3.0 models at this time)


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

Vicelord said:


> The point is that we don't just hear "VW plan approved" and then cars start being purchased back the following day - this is going to be a legal process and if you think *not maintaining* your car while you wait for it to play out is a good idea then that's something you'll have to learn on your own, but I'm telling you it's not a good idea. My _speculation_ is you'll be driving your car next year.


So you STILL don't know the difference between maintenance and repairs. No one here is talking about not maintaining their cars.

Anyone who invests a lot of money to repair their TDI prior to hearing the details of the settlement next week is a fool.


----------



## Vicelord (Oct 28, 2009)

GTI 20v said:


> So you STILL don't know the difference between maintenance and repairs. No one here is talking about not maintaining their cars.
> 
> Anyone who invests a lot of money to repair their TDI prior to hearing the details of the settlement next week is a fool.


I'm not speaking only to you but the number of people in this thread who have alluded to not maintaining their cars or doing needed repairs - hey, you do what you want it's your car, but it's silly.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

If VW was smart...which nothing up to this point shows that they are...and they were going to do something with these cars after along with good faith, they would offer free scheduled maintanence until the car is returned..and if someone is keeping the car, they will also be happy.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

jen_madcity said:


> Well this article sure is interesting:
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertels...swagen-then-at-least-for-diesel/#239e3aeab630


Oh my. This is certainly going to make the shareholder meeting uncomfortable for the VW execs:



> The timing could not have been better, or worse: Tomorrow, June 22, Volkswagen convenes its General Shareholder Meeting.
> 
> ...
> 
> Then this morning, Reuters said that BAFIN had filed criminal charges against the complete Volkswagen board as of September 2015. This includes the current CEO Matthias Müller, and the then CFO Hans Dieter Pötsch, who now is Chairman of the company’s Supervisory Board.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

Are the yearly production numbers anywhere on line? I would be interested how many are from each model year.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

spockcat said:


> What is your definition of older cars? I thought that many of these didn't have the ad-blue system (SCR). But I don't know on which models and what specific time period they were introduced. Someone needs to come up with a definitive chart of models with and without SCR and the years for them. Then overlay the quantity sold of each model for each year. I think it is a lot more than 200,000 that are the old diesel particulate filter (DPF) system.
> 
> As for the numbers of DPF owners willing to go buyback, yes that will depend on the terms and conditions of the buyback and also the repair requirements for the hush money. Same with SCR owners, if VW offers buyback on those too.
> 
> ...


2009 Jetta sedan TDI is LNT (Lean NOx Trap, non DEF system)


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Phil Pugliese said:


> Are the yearly production numbers anywhere on line? I would be interested how many are from each model year.


The only thing close I've seen is an article claiming about 300,000 of the affected TDIs are the early LNT design.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> Oh my. This is certainly going to make the shareholder meeting uncomfortable for the VW execs:


Wow. I...






Wow.

That's all I got.


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Bye Winterkorn.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

There has been a lot of talk about pre-scandal value plus $5,000. I can't imagine they would give the same amount of money to everyone regardless of the modeel year - essentially older car owners get less, newer more. Then, if they are paying you above what it was worth (and above $600) I would expect you will be taxed on this amount by both state and federal (it's payment above what is owed), so you might as well figure in what you will actually have after taxes.

Then as others have said, the process of buying lots of cars, taking them somewhere and doing something with them will be slow, once they announce the plan and if it is a good one, filling up the list will be like buying concert tickets. Then I still don't see how the average buyer deals with a buyback where he drops off the VW and wants to go out and look for another brand of car, most buyers need to trade in because it is the only way they can afford the next car, but maybe VW is banking on a large portion of owners having to buy new/used off of their lot.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

We were thinking of paying off the JSW, but now I'm thinking of seeing what happens. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

dmorrow said:


> Then I still don't see how the average buyer deals with a buyback where he drops off the VW and wants to go out and look for another brand of car, most buyers need to trade in because it is the only way they can afford the next car, but maybe VW is banking on a large portion of owners having to buy new/used off of their lot.


This. 

I've been looking at what I might replace my TDI with... and the logistics of a swap out are pretty difficult unless you can buy the next car while still being under the financing/lease commitment of the current one... Or maybe have a spare beater to drive around in the meantime?


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

dmorrow said:


> Then, if they are paying you above what it was worth (and above $600) I would expect you will be taxed on this amount by both state and federal (it's payment above what is owed), so you might as well figure in what you will actually have after taxes.


Actually, no, because the payment is to recover loss of value of the vehicle, so I would posit that this is not taxable by either fed or state.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> Then, if they are paying you above what it was worth (and above $600) I would expect you will be taxed on this amount by both state and federal (it's payment above what is owed), so you might as well figure in what you will actually have after taxes.


Going to entirely depend what they call the compensation/settlement.

Different types of settlements are taxed different than others and any settlement may not be cut and dry one type of payment.

If they gave owners some sort of sliding scale compensation for loss in value unless that combined with a sale of the vehicle went over your initial purchase price you likely would not need to pay taxes (could be different for business writing it off) on any of it even if it was, using your example, combined to add up to more than 600 of its current value. 

So if a 2009 owner got 3500 and a 2015 owner got 5500 only for loss in value (just using your sliding scale in this example), doesn't matter neither would be taxed outside the example above with a vehicle sale from what I understand. If someone bought a 2009 in august before this broke for a great deal, call it 8k. They get a check for 4k from VW just for loss in value, and they sell it for 7k, they actually made 3k on that deal and could be taxed on that portion.


Now if all owners are awarded some sort of punitive damages on top of the loss in value that would be taxed regardless of any change in value of the vehicle.


Waiting to see a special pop up in turbotax 2017, did you own a diesel vw in the year 2016?


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

E CODE said:


> This.
> 
> I've been looking at what I might replace my TDI with... and the logistics of a swap out are pretty difficult unless you can buy the next car while still being under the financing/lease commitment of the current one... Or maybe have a spare beater to drive around in the meantime?


Spend $30 on an enterprise car rental, or get a friend to give you a ride, or take a taxi, or ride a bike. People have been dealing with that particular problem for ages. People that lease cars, for example.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> Going to entirely depend what they call the compensation/settlement.
> 
> Different types of settlements are taxed different than others and any settlement may not be cut and dry one type of payment.
> 
> ...


I agree, people just need to be aware that if you get a payment above what the court/IRS thinks you were due because of loss of value that it may also be taxed and if the reports of them buying them back at what they would have been worth without the scandal and then some bonus payment/punitive damages then it may not be as good as it seemed on the surface (subject to tax).



grawk said:


> Spend $30 on an enterprise car rental, or get a friend to give you a ride, or take a taxi, or ride a bike. People have been dealing with that particular problem for ages. People that lease cars, for example.


I think you are making it simpler than it will be and the reason leases work well is you drop off the car and aren't expecting a big check from the manufacturer.

So you have the car you are buying lined up (seller is ok with holding it)
VW dealer is ready to accept your car (no issues with him taking care of everything right when you get there)
You drop it off and he does the paperwork
Then he tells you VW Corporate will be mailing you a check? I don't see the dealer handing you cash or writing the check since the money is coming from Corporate.
Then you finally receive the check, deposit it and wait for it to clear so you can use the money (5 days?)?


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

dmorrow said:


> I think you are making it simpler than it will be and the reason leases work well is you drop off the car and aren't expecting a big check from the manufacturer.
> 
> So you have the car you are buying lined up (seller is ok with holding it)
> VW dealer is ready to accept your car (no issues with him taking care of everything right when you get there)
> ...


I think the dealers will have money from corporate in escrow, otherwise they'll have too many hacked-off former customers sitting in their dealerships causing a scene. Every day.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

dmorrow said:


> So you have the car you are buying lined up (seller is ok with holding it)
> VW dealer is ready to accept your car (no issues with him taking care of everything right when you get there)
> You drop it off and he does the paperwork
> Then he tells you VW Corporate will be mailing you a check? I don't see the dealer handing you cash or writing the check since the money is coming from Corporate.
> Then you finally receive the check, deposit it and wait for it to clear so you can use the money (5 days?)?


They could set up a wire transfer which would be in your bank the following day. Really isn't very hard.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

spockcat said:


> They could set up a wire transfer which would be in your bank the following day. Really isn't very hard.


But do you think they would do this? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

2ohgti said:


> But do you think they would do this?


Do you think the dealers can basically say "buy a new car from us or walk home/get a ride"?

They aren't going to be able to put thousands of (former) customers off by making them wait 5 days to get a different car. They'll get their collective asses sued off. Again.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> I think the dealers will have money from corporate in escrow, otherwise they'll have too many hacked-off former customers sitting in their dealerships causing a scene. Every day.





spockcat said:


> They could set up a wire transfer which would be in your bank the following day. Really isn't very hard.


Possibly on both but when one of the biggest corporations in the world is given the task of paying hundreds of thousands of people a substantial amount of money (they will pay out billions of dollars) I don't see it being as simple as having a friend pick you up at the dealer soon after you turned your car in and the money in your account the next day. The chances for abuse are too great. The "we wired out hundreds of millions of dollars this month, are we sure all of it went to TDI customers?"

They also have a lot of reason to try to get you to buy another VW (or something off the used lot) which gets rid of all of your hassle.

Edit: For the ones not holding their title (car is financed) guessing they aren't going to wire you the money until they get the title? You show up with the car and no title and they don't immediately wire the money?


----------



## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

Some of you are way over thinking this buyback... Look how Toyota handled the rotting frame issue, bring your truck in and we will write you a check. Willing to bet it will be handled similar to that just on a larger scale.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

oldschool eighty8 said:


> Some of you are way over thinking this buyback... Look how Toyota handled the rotting frame issue, bring your truck in and we will write you a check. Willing to bet it will be handled similar to that just on a larger scale.


Then read below. So VW is providing loaner vehicles like Toyota?



> During the repurchase process, the customer may remain in their complimentary loaner vehicle until the repurchase process is complete and they have obtained another vehicle, not to exceed 30 days from the initial rental date


http://www.showstop.org/images/truck/rust_warranty/warranty-policy.pdf

Seems like Toyota considered the exact problem I am wondering about and came up with a good solution.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

oldschool eighty8 said:


> Some of you are way over thinking this buyback... Look how Toyota handled the rotting frame issue, bring your truck in and we will write you a check. Willing to bet it will be handled similar to that just on a larger scale.



Yeah maybe I am optimistic but I see myself walking in with the Wife's TDI October/November telling them I want to drive out in a 2017 Jetta Alltrack, write a check for the difference (which for VWs sake should not be much with the adjusted buyback valuation and the 'pain & kittens killed' bonus).

If for some reason they are ****ty about it ( I doubt it if they want to grow the brand here in the US) I will take what they give me and go next door and settle for a Subaru with a CVT that will make me want to kick things.

People think that the writing of the checks is a huge burden. Sure some guy/team is going to have some crappy work weeks doing asset allocation but getting the money accessible for a company that large is not an issue.


----------



## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

Sump said:


> Yeah maybe I am optimistic but I see myself walking in with the Wife's TDI October/November telling them I want to drive out in a 2017 Jetta Alltrack, write a check for the difference (which for VWs sake should not be much with the adjusted buyback valuation and the 'pain & kittens killed' bonus).
> 
> If for some reason they are ****ty about it ( I doubt it if they want to grow the brand here in the US) I will take what they give me and go next door and settle for a Subaru with a CVT that will make me want to kick things.
> 
> People think that the writing of the checks is a huge burden. Sure some guy/team is going to have some crappy work weeks doing asset allocation but getting the money accessible for a company that large is not an issue.


:thumbup:
Toyota kept a large number of people in a Toyota by the way they handled the payout. If vw tries to trap people into staying with the brand they will lose out to other brands.


----------



## ktm8806 (Feb 14, 2005)

_VW will provide cash payments worth between $1,000 and $7,000, depending on the vehicle’s age and other factors, to compensate consumers, the people said._

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...esel-owners-up-to-7-000-fund-clean-air-grants


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

ktm8806 said:


> _VW will provide cash payments worth between $1,000 and $7,000, depending on the vehicle’s age and other factors, to compensate consumers, the people said._
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...esel-owners-up-to-7-000-fund-clean-air-grants





> Car owners will be faced with complex calculations to figure out how much cash they might receive from Volkswagen, two of the people said, which could upset them and harm the carmaker’s relationship with buyers even further.


This is worth quoting. If true, VW can suck my left nut, as I will be more than happy to pursue legal action at that point. Enough is enough.


----------



## Dubveiser (Aug 4, 2005)

VW needs to stop talking numbers and start actually taking care of their customers.

When all of this is over, owners won't really remember how good or bad an offer they got from VW. They sure as **** will remember how badly VW handled the whole ordeal.

I'm keeping my MK5 but I'm signing a lease on a rav4 hybrid later today. It could have been an alltrac, or a 2017 Tiguan, or a GTE. But when you visit a VW showroom today, it's basically screaming , **** north America, let's not give them anything interesting and we'll just throw cash at them to shut them up.

**** VW. Seriously. My family has exclusively owned VW since my dad bought a 1983 Rabbit S. There's literally nothing left on the showroom floor that any of us are interested in... How they are handling dieselgate is just icing.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

LOL @ everyone speculating that VW will do anything remotely similar to Toyota regarding loaners, etc. Given the way they have bungled this whole thing from the start, what makes you think they'll do anything that remotely makes sense or helps the owners of these cars?

I have literally zero faith in VW at this point. No amount of "goodwill gestures" can change that now. 6 months ago, I might have felt differently, but they have kept stalling and delaying and being generally not helpful at all.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Geesixty said:


> This is worth quoting. If true, VW can suck my left nut, as I will be more than happy to pursue legal action at that point. Enough is enough.


So do you think an owner of a 2006 rusted-out, 150K mile Jetta should get the same amount of cash as an owner of a 2012 prestine Jetta?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Hajduk said:


> So do you think an owner of a 2006 rusted-out, 150K mile Jetta should get the same amount of cash as an owner of a 2012 prestine Jetta?



The 2006 owner should be entitled to NOTHING!!!


because they are not involved in this


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Dubveiser said:


> VW needs to stop talking numbers and start actually taking care of their customers.


VW isn't talking numbers, this is random unconfirmed news filler at this point.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> LOL @ everyone speculating that VW will do anything remotely similar to Toyota regarding loaners, etc. Given the way they have bungled this whole thing from the start, what makes you think they'll do anything that remotely makes sense or helps the owners of these cars?
> 
> I have literally zero faith in VW at this point. No amount of "goodwill gestures" can change that now. 6 months ago, I might have felt differently, but they have kept stalling and delaying and being generally not helpful at all.



...and the $--t continues to get deeper.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

is thats what is actually proposed at the meeting, im sure there will be outcry and push for buyback from the people during the pubic hearing period.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Bloomburg said:


> the people said.


Is this a Sniffpetrol article? :laugh:


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Air and water do mix said:


> Do you think the dealers can basically say "buy a new car from us or walk home/get a ride"?
> 
> They aren't going to be able to put thousands of (former) customers off by making them wait 5 days to get a different car. They'll get their collective asses sued off. Again.


I think dealers will try to sell you a new car. Or at least the dealership I go to. Mine does that every time I walk in the door. I have to walk through sales to get to service. I get bombarded by a bunch of cheesy sales guys and it's really annoying. 
I walk through basically saying, "no, no, no, FU".
As far as customers with no ride back-they may offer a shuttle service. 
All of this is speculative though. We really don't know what will really happen. VW can be unpredictable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

ktm8806 said:


> _VW will provide cash payments worth between $1,000 and $7,000, depending on the vehicle’s age and other factors, to compensate consumers, the people said._
> 
> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...esel-owners-up-to-7-000-fund-clean-air-grants


Pretty sure, on that type of sliding scale, owners of newer cars would get more than owners of older ones.... given the depreciation of the older car would have been higher due to regular age factors when the scandal hit. 

However, that doesn't account for that owners 'pain and suffering' of polluting the environment (and I know, pain and suffering isn't really the right term). what basically amounts to a pound of flesh off of VW, so to speak. So, in this case, I could see that type of owner still going after VW privately. 

Personally, on mine... so long as I'm not underwater on a buy back, I'd be happy.... anything extra I get will likely be rolling into an older VW anyway... I don't drive near enough to warrant another new car (mine is a 2014 wagon).


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

I will be happy if we can get my wife into something equivalent at least. She loves that JSW. I've never seen her like a car this much. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## crxgat0r (Dec 20, 2002)

2ohgti said:


> I will be happy if we can get my wife into something equivalent at least. She loves that JSW. I've never seen her like a car this much.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They do make GSW with a gas engine. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

crxgat0r said:


> They do make GSW with a gas engine.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


She would love that, but financially can't do it. The car is nearly paid off, and we were looking forward to not having a payment. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

2ohgti said:


> I will be happy if we can get my wife into something equivalent at least. She loves that JSW. I've never seen her like a car this much.


Why not just keep it and let VW attempt a fix? You'd still get the hush money and roadside coverage... and likely more benefits too (I'm anticipating extended warranty or something)

Since she loves it so much... keep it and drive it into the ground in 10 years...

Or... since it's nearly paid off... take the buyback, pocket the extra. Take the hush money too... and buy an identicle JSW on the private market. Then keep that one and drive it into the ground. You could still have no payment. 

I'm leaning towards this on mine too.... replacing my wagon with something really similar, maybe even a TDI again....


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

E CODE said:


> Why not just keep it and let VW attempt a fix? You'd still get the hush money and roadside coverage... and likely more benefits too (I'm anticipating extended warranty or something)
> 
> Since she loves it so much... keep it and drive it into the ground in 10 years...


Yeah that would be great, just have to see what happens. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

Let me preface this by stating that I am not a VW apologist. I bought my Passat because I wanted a good sized car that got good gas mileage and performed reasonably well. While I loved my 535i, the mileage wasn't very good and my drive is much too mundane to justify paying $60k plus for a car that's only going to do a pedestrian drive everyday. Same for an A6 or Q5. The 3.0 diesels aren't worth it, in my mind. My wife has an X5 diesel and the mileage is ok. I wouldn't even consider a M5 or S6 given the lack of opportunity to enjoy driving them. Thus, I don't really care how VW is viewed by others. 

That being said, those that are complaining about the pace of the negotiations have likely never tried to settle a civil case with the Federal Government. I recently had a case where the settlement amount was in the low 7 figures, i.e. less than $10,000,000. It took approximately 60 days to get the government to sign off on the settlement despite the fact that everyone agreed each of the terms (monetary and non-monetary) including the assistant US attorney and the particular agency involved in the case. Now, imagine a settlement figure 100 times larger with much more substantial non-monetary conditions with numerous parties with competing interests. The wheels of justice turn very slowly in the best of circumstances. Add in the settlement amounts, non-monetary conditions and 9 months seems like a very reasonable amount of time to reach a resolution. The majority of cases that I've handled in Federal Court have been Tier 2 cases which means that trial is approximately 18 months after the initiation of the case. This case is much too complex to be a Tier 2 case.


----------



## kickercoach (Jun 7, 2010)

*In Bloomberg Today*

It is obvious from any vantage point that the EPA has a vested interest in NEVER approving a fix for the Diesels. 

If a fix is approved it reduces the amount of money that flows into their hands via the remediation plan. EPA sidesteps congress and gets a pile of money without any strings or responsibility to the tax payers.

How about they fund a total revamp of their vehicle testing procedures and processes to include the latest equipment for a more than obvious suggestion? Bureaucrats with a pile of money and no strings. EPA = slick crooks.

From Bloomberg today.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...esel-owners-up-to-7-000-fund-clean-air-grants

"It’s likely that VW won’t have a final sign-off on its plan to fix the 2-liter cars, the person said. That’s making the plan to compensate for environmental damage more important to regulators, since the diesel-powered cars remain on the road exceeding pollution limits.
The amount of money VW will pay into the fund will depend on a technical assessment by the regulators of how much excess smog-forming gases the non-compliant diesel cars emitted going back to 2009. They’ll also estimate how much pollution to expect going forward from consumers who don’t sell their cars back to VW or don’t follow up on the recall repairs."


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

If VW tells me they will pay me $6,000 to keep the car and "maybe we'll have a fix in a few years" I'll take the money and cut my losses as I have a 2014 JSW with the non-SCR - We will be out of a CARB state by then and moved into a state with no diesel emissions anyway - 

Unfortunately the GSW with gas engine doesn't excite me in the least, mileage is not as good, and the auto trans (wife's car) isn't DSG

I'll look at the AllTrac but I'm sure 200k JSW owners would be looking for them on a buyback anyway, I can't imagine the production can keep up


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Ricky Bobby said:


> and the auto trans (wife's car) isn't DSG


Thought you were listing negatives?


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

E CODE said:


> Pretty sure, on that type of sliding scale, owners of newer cars would get more than owners of older ones.... given the depreciation of the older car would have been higher due to regular age factors when the scandal hit.
> 
> However, that doesn't account for that owners 'pain and suffering' of polluting the environment (and I know, pain and suffering isn't really the right term). what basically amounts to a pound of flesh off of VW, so to speak. So, in this case, I could see that type of owner still going after VW privately.
> 
> Personally, on mine... so long as I'm not underwater on a buy back, I'd be happy.... anything extra I get will likely be rolling into an older VW anyway... I don't drive near enough to warrant another new car (mine is a 2014 wagon).


If they offer to buy the cars back at what they were worth before the scandal (market value) then any payment above this amount is only for the "pain and suffering", you got what the car was worth. Then don't forget to add in the $500 + $500 credit as this should also be included. If you aren't happy with the amount you will have to decide if what you might get through other means would be worth the hassle and money to get it.

It also makes sense (even if people don't like it) that the person who has a 2015 TDI is going to get a much higher payment than the one with a 2010.

All of the nonsense about getting a free car or them buying your 2010 for much more than it is worth and then giving you an additional $5000 (after the $500 and $500 dealer credit) looks to be just that.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

tomski12 said:


> That being said, those that are complaining about the pace of the negotiations have likely never tried to settle a civil case with the Federal Government.


Doesn't matter. I don't care how long it takes for the government to settle up with VW. If VW got out in front of this and gave us ANYTHING to go on beyond rumors and whisperings, they may have saved face. If they had proactively done something, they might have kept myself (and others, I'm sure) as customers. They did neither. They will not earn my business in the future.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Doesn't matter. I don't care how long it takes for the government to settle up with VW. If VW got out in front of this and gave us ANYTHING to go on beyond rumors and whisperings, they may have saved face.


First rule of court club.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> If VW got out in front of this and gave us ANYTHING to go on beyond rumors and whisperings, they may have saved face.


The judge presiding over the case issued a gag order prohibiting anyone involved from discussing the details in public. No one - not the civil lawsuit lawyers, not VW media or lawyers, not CARB, nor the EPA were allowed to talk outside of the communication approved by the judge.


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

I'd consider a buyback of my 2015 Golf TDI SEL if the numbers jive. I would like to get into an AllTrack or even another 2015-2016 TDI if the ones that have been sitting will be available to buy after the "Fix".


----------



## da_jokker (Jun 23, 2016)

True on the gag order, but that didn't happen until late april. VW had left us hanging since September..... 

I've been farfegScrewden


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

I didn't see anything in today's leak about a buyback. All that it said was $1-$7K in payment. Are we still thinking there will be an offer to buy the cars back? Or is the payment all we get? I guess we'll find out soon but it's fun to speculate.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

that escalated. 

"South Korea issues arrest warrant for Volkswagen exec in connection to emissions scandal, official says - Reuters dailym.ai/28QBWvg"


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

bdc12 said:


> I didn't see anything in today's leak about a buyback. All that it said was $1-$7K in payment. Are we still thinking there will be an offer to buy the cars back? Or is the payment all we get? I guess we'll find out soon but it's fun to speculate.


Buy backs PLUS cash. 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswa...billion-to-settle-emissions-claims-1466707647


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## da_jokker (Jun 23, 2016)

Just read a wall street article that claims "at least $5,100" for each owner on top of x ... Guess it's all still rumors. I will say $1k is gar from generous compensation.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Doesn't matter. I don't care how long it takes for the government to settle up with VW. If VW got out in front of this and gave us ANYTHING to go on beyond rumors and whisperings, they may have saved face. If they had proactively done something, they might have kept myself (and others, I'm sure) as customers. They did neither. They will not earn my business in the future.


Hmmm. Maybe they should have given every affected owner a $500 gift card to use on anything they wanted and another $500 gift card to use at VW dealers until a solution was reached? Maybe they should have given the gift cards to the affect owners without prejudice to a future settlement? Oh that's right, they did both. Think about that for a second, that's $480,000,000 to vehicle owners who still have the same car they had they day before the disclosures came out.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

kickercoach said:


> It is obvious from any vantage point that the EPA has a vested interest in NEVER approving a fix for the Diesels.


VW knew what the emissions requirements were when they originally designed the affected cars. They also knew what the requirements were when they got caught. All they needed to do was design a fix that puts the car into compliance with the same laws that were in place when the car was designed. It is clear at this point the reason a "fix" has not been approved is because VW likely cannot meet the emissions requirements for all models -- hence the partial buyback.

Why should the EPA lower the bar for VW? Other automakers met the EPA requirements, look at the Chevy Cruze diesel.




kickercoach said:


> If a fix is approved it reduces the amount of money that flows into their hands via the remediation plan. EPA sidesteps congress and gets a pile of money without any strings or responsibility to the tax payers.


Incorrect. Money from fines goes to the Treasury, not the EPA.




kickercoach said:


> How about they fund a total revamp of their vehicle testing procedures and processes to include the latest equipment for a more than obvious suggestion? Bureaucrats with a pile of money and no strings. EPA = slick crooks.


First and foremost, the vast majority of vehicles on the road today are "self certified" by automakers like VW using privately-owned equipment in private labs. Secondly, there are relatively few providers of emissions equipment in the world (Horiba is one of the largest). You can rest easy knowing the EPA and industry have to basically buy equipment from the same vendors.

VW's violation had nothing to do with the type of equipment used by the EPA or industry. It had everything to do with computer code embedded in VW's ECU that is specifically designed to detect when the car is being emissions tested. Remind me again, who's the slick crook?


----------



## ZPayne (Jan 8, 2014)

If this was GM or Ford, the EPA would not be anywhere near as aggressive. It's a sad state of affairs. VW deserves punishment, they were very stupid for cheating, but i've done some research into diesel emissions in the US under the clean air act, and its written in plain english that the intent of the laws are to stifle the development of diesel cars in this country. Ford, GM, and Chrysler have knowingly ignored defects in their cars which have killed hundreds upon hundreds of people over the years yet they only get a minor slap on the wrist.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

jen_madcity said:


> Buy backs PLUS cash.
> 
> http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswa...billion-to-settle-emissions-claims-1466707647
> 
> ...


If thats accurate it seems fair, assuming the buyback value is reasonable. I wonder how they'll figure that out? KBB or Black from August of last year seems to be the popular thinking, but there is a wide range in those values. Plus most people overvalue their trade. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

bdc12 said:


> If thats accurate it seems fair, assuming the buyback value is reasonable. I wonder how they'll figure that out? KBB or Black from August of last year seems to be the popular thinking, but there is a wide range in those values. Plus most people overvalue their trade.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I was wondering this too. KBB trade in value? Some cars will be in better condition than others. Is condition/value going to be up to VW dealerships to determine? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## da_jokker (Jun 23, 2016)

Well thats $500 bone for the consumer and $500 bone for the dealers. But I don't think we are looking for money we're just looking for information and some transparency. For many time doesn't matter but for others who are looking to trade in their car, or got in a car accident, or need a major repair.... being kept in the dark for almost a year doesn't make those people happy.

I live in a state that will literally prevent me from registering my car if they feel like it. I do not like to be left in the dark for so long.


----------



## da_jokker (Jun 23, 2016)

Total guess but when you normally sell/trade in you car to a dealer, they always go below blue book. I would imagine this will be no different except they may use a base from Sept and then deduct for mileage.

I'll be pretty bent if I can not sell my car (because I can't smog it) and I'm forced to be low balled by a dealer.


----------



## da_jokker (Jun 23, 2016)

Last post for now but whomever wrote that article about how we all lost $1500 in depreciation because of this obviously doesn't own a TDI... what an idiot.... Try about 6k or more. I sure hope they're not on the deciding Council.


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

2ohgti said:


> I was wondering this too. KBB trade in value? Some cars will be in better condition than others. Is condition/value going to be up to VW dealerships to determine?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My guess (strictly a GUESS!) is that if they use Blue Book value, it'll be "excellent" for everyone. I can't imagine they'll spend the time (and tick everyone off yet more) messing around assessing condition on everyone's cars. Maybe a mileage deduction, maybe not. If they want a 90% take rate (mentioned by Feinberg), the offers better be good enough so people don't have to think twice about them. Bring it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

kickercoach said:


> It is obvious from any vantage point that the EPA has a vested interest in NEVER approving a fix for the Diesels.
> 
> If a fix is approved it reduces the amount of money that flows into their hands via the remediation plan. EPA sidesteps congress and gets a pile of money without any strings or responsibility to the tax payers.
> 
> How about they fund a total revamp of their vehicle testing procedures and processes to include the latest equipment for a more than obvious suggestion? Bureaucrats with a pile of money and no strings. EPA = slick crooks.


Your comment is pure bull****.

I'm sure you're a terrific person. But your comment is uncut, ignorant, know-nothing, conspiracy-mongering bull****.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> The judge presiding over the case issued a gag order prohibiting anyone involved from discussing the details in public. No one - not the civil lawsuit lawyers, not VW media or lawyers, not CARB, nor the EPA were allowed to talk outside of the communication approved by the judge.


Correct.

But lots of people say things they're not allowed to. Way of the world.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

bdc12 said:


> I didn't see anything in today's leak about a buyback.


Then you didn't read Thursday's Wall Street Journal:

"Under the proposed deal, Volkswagen would offer to *buy back cars* . . . ."

Or Thursday's Bloomberg News:

"In addition to either fixing or *buying back* the affected cars, VW will provide cash payments . . . ."

Or the key Thursday Associated Press story:

"Volkswagen will offer to fix the cars for free, but any fix will likely hurt the cars' acceleration and fuel economy. Alternatively, owners can *sell their car back to the company*."


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

I have been thinking all along they'll probably offer additional loyalty cash to keep owners in the brand. Say an additional $1,500 if you buy another VW/Audi. If there is a buyback plus penalty and maybe some loyalty incentives, this may work out well if you're willing to purchase another. If the buyback plus penalty can be taken as a trade in allowance that would be another huge benefit. It varies by state, but here in Illinois you get sales tax credit for the gross trade amount. 

I really like my car and could care less about high emissions. I do care about diminished value due to fraud, but if they make that right I'd consider the matter settled and would gladly buy another. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

bdc12 said:


> I really like my car and could care less about high emissions. I do care about diminished value due to fraud, but if they make that right I'd consider the matter settled and would gladly buy another.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


:thumbup: x2


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

That's where we are, too.

Keep the thing, give me money and some loyalty $$ to spend and I will even buy another one, assuming we can keep the TDI. If the TDI goes away, it will be replaced with a Volt or a Bolt.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

2ohgti said:


> I was wondering this too. KBB trade in value? Some cars will be in better condition than others. Is condition/value going to be up to VW dealerships to determine?


In past buy backs, condition has been set, in part to keep people happy and speed up the process. I'd expect the same, mileage being the only factor that can easily be taken into count... 

Also, they will most likely contract the whole process out to a separate company that specializes in this type of thing (it's what Toyota did with the rusty frame warranty/buyback). So that at least might speed up the process for owners.



atomicalex said:


> That's where we are, too.
> 
> Keep the thing, give me money and some loyalty $$ to spend and I will even buy another one, assuming we can keep the TDI. If the TDI goes away, it will be replaced with a Volt or a Bolt.


I havn't thought of the Volt for a while... I love the idea of the electric/gas combo - but the first Gen was kinda ugly... I wonder what I can get a new one for...


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

E CODE said:


> In past buy backs, condition has been set, in part to keep people happy and speed up the process. I'd expect the same, mileage being the only factor that can easily be taken into count...
> 
> Also, they will most likely contract the whole process out to a separate company that specializes in this type of thing (it's what Toyota did with the rusty frame warranty/buyback). So that at least might speed up the process for owners.
> 
> ...


I don't trust VW dealerships at all. I have little faith that they will handle this in a decent matter. 
Toyota is different, and think they offer better customer service in general.
A Volt/Bolt is a far better car if you are looking on fuel savings. Probably more reliable too. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

E CODE said:


> I havn't thought of the Volt for a while... I love the idea of the electric/gas combo - but the first Gen was kinda ugly... I wonder what I can get a new one for...


The first gen Volts are going for round $17,000 coming off of lease. As far as I'm concerned they're the bargain right now. Of course, I kinda like the looks of them. My business partner got one for his wife and it's been flawless and efficient. It drives well, too. I :heart: them.


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> The first gen Volts are going for round $17,000 coming off of lease. As far as I'm concerned they're the bargain right now. Of course, I kinda like the looks of them. My business partner got one for his wife and it's been flawless and efficient. It drives well, too. I :heart: them.


As the owner of both a Volt and a TDI, I can tell you that the TDI is more fun to drive, but the Volt will get far better mileage, depending on how you drive. Over the past 3 years, my average mileage for the Volt has been 70 MPG, while the TDI has been around 39. On highway trips the TDI will beat the Volt every time, but on my 36 mile round trip commute, the Volt just killed the TDI in terms of economy.

The Volt has been pretty reliable, but has had to go in for about 4 recalls. I will tell you that the cost of ownership of the Volt has been just about zero. In the past 45k miles and 3 years it has required a grand total one one oil change, which was $40. That's it.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

Air and water do mix said:


> The first gen Volts are going for round $17,000 coming off of lease. As far as I'm concerned they're the bargain right now. Of course, I kinda like the looks of them. My business partner got one for his wife and it's been flawless and efficient. It drives well, too. I :heart: them.


The new Volt looks pretty good and you can still get that $7,500 tax credit (I think). The new one has a claimed electric range of 53 miles or so. I live 26 miles from work, so in theory I could commute strictly on battery. We even have free charging stations at work, so my electricity expenditure might be zero. I'll bet actual range is a lot lower when you run heat or AC though. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

bdc12 said:


> The new Volt looks pretty good and you can still get that $7,500 tax credit (I think). The new one has a claimed electric range of 53 miles or so. I live 26 miles from work, so in theory I could commute strictly on battery. We even have free charging stations at work, so my electricity expenditure might be zero. I'll bet actual range is a lot lower when you run heat or AC though.


Even if you end up doing 10 miles of your daily 52 mile commute on gasoline, you'd still have an overall average over 200 mpg for the Volt in such a scenario. Nothing else could ever touch that except a pure EV with a longer range, but then you give up the ability to do extended road trips. The Volt truly is an impressive engineering feat.


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

bdc12 said:


> The new Volt looks pretty good and you can still get that $7,500 tax credit (I think). The new one has a claimed electric range of 53 miles or so. I live 26 miles from work, so in theory I could commute strictly on battery. We even have free charging stations at work, so my electricity expenditure might be zero. I'll bet actual range is a lot lower when you run heat or AC though.


A/C doesn't affect range much, but heat absolutely kills it. On a 90 deg summer day I can get 40 miles, but on a 20 deg winter day I'm lucky to get 25. Pre-heating the car and using seat warmers are key.


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

Where do I find the "value" as of Sept 2015 of my TDI?


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

Just get a PDF at above link

I am older and not a computer guy

But if you are in an ER or have trauma I can usually fix it


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

Per NADA:



> H*How do I obtain a historical value from a previous month or year?*
> NADAguides has an extensive Reference Library and offers its services to anyone in need of outdated information on automobiles, boats, motorcycles, manufactured homes, and much more. Values may be obtained for a prepaid fee of $40.00 per value. If the information you are requesting is available, requests will be processed within two (2) business days and may be emailed, faxed or mailed. If you are interested in this service please email [email protected]


Per KBB:



> *How can I get the value of my car on a past date?*
> Occasionally we get a request from a consumer for the value of a particular vehicle at a particular date in history. This request may be for litigation, estate planning, taxes, etc. The fee for a Past Value Report is $35 per value. We do sell these older books as well, and in some cases the book may be less expensive than the Past Value Report. To request a Past Value Report or archive book, please contact our Customer Service Department at 1-800-258-3266, option 2. This service usually has a 48-72 hour turn around time. If you do not wish to purchase a report or book, our publications can often be found at libraries or credit unions.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

cpermd said:


> Where do I find the "value" as of Sept 2015 of my TDI?


There is no single source of valuation info. There are three big ones in the U.S. Kelly Blue Book, NADA and Black Book. I wouldn't bother trying to find historical info- I'm sure VW will provide it. You can probably guess by going to KBB.com and valuing your car now. Add 15-20% to today's value and you are probably pretty close. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

bdc12 said:


> There is no single source of valuation info. There are three big ones in the U.S. Kelly Blue Book, NADA and Black Book. I wouldn't bother trying to find historical info- I'm sure VW will provide it. You can probably guess by going to KBB.com and valuing your car now. Add 15-20% to today's value and you are probably pretty close.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It will be interesting to see how they value the 2015s.... Mine was only 6 mos old when the scandal broke, too new to even have a KBB value.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

da_jokker said:


> Total guess but when you normally sell/trade in you car to a dealer, they always go below blue book. I would imagine this will be no different except they may use a base from Sept and then deduct for mileage.


However, since this may be seen as an involuntary sale (like when an insurance company makes a payout on a crashed car declared to be a "total loss"), it may be more reasonable to expect a dealer retail type of valuation plus sales/use tax and pro-rated license costs (like what an insurance company may offer for a "total loss" payout).

Unlike insurance company "total loss" payouts, where the loss vehicle is inspected to estimate its pre-crash condition, and then a service is used to find comparables that are for sale or recently sold at nearby dealers to get a price estimate, it is possible that a VW buy back will use some sort of generic valuation (some color "book") from just before the scandal and use a generous assumption of condition, just to be able to deal with a large number of cars quickly.


----------



## da_jokker (Jun 23, 2016)

tjl said:


> However, since this may be seen as an involuntary sale (like when an insurance company makes a payout on a crashed car declared to be a "total loss"), it may be more reasonable to expect a dealer retail type of valuation plus sales/use tax and pro-rated license costs (like what an insurance company may offer for a "total loss" payout).
> 
> Unlike insurance company "total loss" payouts, where the loss vehicle is inspected to estimate its pre-crash condition, and then a service is used to find comparables that are for sale or recently sold at nearby dealers to get a price estimate, it is possible that a VW buy back will use some sort of generic valuation (some color "book") from just before the scandal and use a generous assumption of condition, just to be able to deal with a large number of cars quickly.




Man I hope you are right. My car is actually very clean for a 2009 with 96k on it. I know it's older and has miles, but it's a nice car. Would love to get HIGH blue +. I mean let's face it... if VW doesn't give us enough to get out of the balance of the loan... why would be give the car back?


----------



## DJMRDARK (Aug 21, 2009)

More resolution info:

*
Volkswagen's $10 Billion Settlement*
_
The German carmaker will reportedly offer thousands of dollars in compensation to American owners, *in addition to the opportunity to sell back their car*s._



Back in April, Volkswagen reached a deal with U.S. authorities that finally answered the central questions in the company’s emissions-cheating scandal: what happens to the 500,000 offending VW vehicles in the U.S. and how their owners will be compensated.

Two months ago, the EPA and a judge in San Francisco approved a settlement that would allow Volkswagen owners to choose to have their cars fixed or bought back. (Under the agreement, drivers with leases could cancel them.) The official amount was unclear back in April, but in recent days—ahead of the official court announcement next Tuesday—sources told the AP that the settlement amount will be about $10.2 billion. An anonymous source told The New York Times that that all owners of the affected cars will receive an average of $5,000 in compensation, whether they choose to sell their cars to VW (at pre-scandal market price) or opt for the the fix.

The settlement doesn’t include the fines Volkswagen is facing in an ongoing lawsuit filed by the U.S. Justice Department for violating the Clean Air Act—a suit that could result in as much as $48 billion in fines. Volkswagen is also being sued by its shareholders, on the grounds that the scandal has eroded the company’s value. Its stock price has fallen 40 percent in the past year.

The emissions scandal began in September of last year, when the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency ordered Volkswagen to fix nearly half a million of its vehicles after saying that the German car-maker installed illegal “defeat devices” intended to cheat emissions testing. VW publicly admitted to the deception. Martin Winterkorn, VW’s CEO at the time, promptly resigned and is now under investigation by German prosecutors for market manipulation.

Earlier this year, Matthias Mueller, Volkswagen’s new chief executive, upset many when in an interview with NPR he asserted, “We didn't lie.” At the company’s recent annual shareholder meeting, Volkswagen’s investors didn’t hold back, expressing their frustration with the way the company has handled the scandal. At the meeting, some investors argued that those who were in charge during the scandal shouldn’t be getting bonuses. (In April, it was reported that they’d still be getting 70 percent of their bonuses.) The investors were unsuccessful in their attempt to remove Hans Dieter Pötsch as the chairman of Volkswagen’s supervisory board.


http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/06/volkswagen-settlement/488657/?utm_source=atltw


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

DJMRDARK said:


> a suit that could result in as much as $48 billion in fines.


----------



## BudPytko (Apr 22, 2012)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...552e18-3a1d-11e6-a254-2b336e293a3c_story.html

Korean manager may go to jail over TDI Scandal.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

BudPytko said:


> https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...552e18-3a1d-11e6-a254-2b336e293a3c_story.html
> 
> Korean manager may go to jail over TDI Scandal.


Seems ridiculous for South Korea to put a local manager in jail over something he likely didn't know about. They should put some Germans in jail in Korea.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

spockcat said:


> Seems ridiculous for South Korea to put a local manager in jail over something he likely didn't know about. They should put some Germans in jail in Korea.


According to the story, the South Korean VW executive is accused of several crimes including fabricating documents, a.k.a. fraud.

If the executive can show that he or she did not know that the representations he or she made in the documents were false, the executive will aquitted of fraud, at least by U.S. standards.

I think we can all agree that someone at VW South Korea should be responsible for ensuring the accuracy of assertions the company makes to South Korean regulators. Perhaps this executive is that person.

I'll save my tears for this executive until I know more.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

So is this supposed to go down tomorrow and made public?


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

.yuk. said:


> So is this supposed to go down tomorrow and made public?


That's what we have been told. The countdown has begun...

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

quailallstar said:


> The countdown has begun...


...to another delay :laugh:


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

.yuk. said:


> So is this supposed to go down tomorrow and made public?


But not finalized... simply made public for discussion...


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

Mazda 3s said:


> ...to another delay :laugh:


Yup! But I'm trying to remain really optimistic. 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

Plus it is in San Francisco So even later for you east coasters.


----------



## Dirtmvr (Feb 28, 2016)

I sure am glad I don't have an affected car in this game, (well indirectly I do since I have a 2016 TSI) because I'd really be pi$$ed. The way the lawyers and VW have dragged this out is absolutely a kick in the nuts to everyone else. The more I think about it the more I'm wondering what I was thinking supporting them by buying another VW (my 5th). Just like the financial crisis, though, the Goldman Sachs of the world go untouched while everyone else suffers....
Can you tell I'm a little short of caffeine this morning? :laugh:


----------



## GlhTroy (Aug 6, 2013)

Mazda 3s said:


> ...to another delay :laugh:


Hey shush! We didn't need that negativity around here lol

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/06/27/eu-commissioner-vw-pay-us-owners-apply-europe/


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

PolishSasquatch said:


> http://www.autoblog.com/2016/06/27/eu-commissioner-vw-pay-us-owners-apply-europe/


Article for those who don't want to click through. This would either bring down the company or cause VW to balk on the entire US agreement.



> As she's done before, European Commission commissioner Elzbieta Bienkowska is saying she wants Volkswagen to treat all of its scandalized diesel customers in the same way. Bienkowska (pictured) said this weekend that whatever VW pays out to US diesel owners is what it should pay to diesel buyers in Europe. A report last week said that VW might pay between $1,000 and $7,000 per car to owners in the US, an amount that could add up to over $10 billion for the half-million affected diesels that were sold here. Affected, of course, means a diesel vehicle into which VW installed illegal software that was designed to trick emissions tests around the world.
> 
> VW admitted last year that up to 11 million vehicles could be affected. At even $5,000 per vehicle, that's an awful lot of payout money. $55,000,000,000, in fact. VW has said that it will fix the diesels in Europe but not pay compensation. Bienkowska disagrees.
> 
> ...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

PolishSasquatch said:


> http://www.autoblog.com/2016/06/27/eu-commissioner-vw-pay-us-owners-apply-europe/


No offense to the money-grabbing EU politicians, but if the EU wanted to do a money grab, they should have been implementing the same NOx standards as the US. Instead the Euro5 standard permitted 0.18 g/km of NOx where the US was permitting just 0.0434 g/km (24% as much) NOx. So the US standard in 2009 was more than 4x as restrictive as the Euro5 standard adopted by the EU.

So basically: FU EU. If you wanted in on the cash grab, you should have adopted standards that were as good as the US standards.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Dirtmvr said:


> I sure am glad I don't have an affected car in this game, (well indirectly I do since I have a 2016 TSI) because I'd really be pi$$ed. The way the lawyers and VW have dragged this out is absolutely a kick in the nuts to everyone else. The more I think about it the more I'm wondering what I was thinking supporting them by buying another VW (my 5th). Just like the financial crisis, though, the Goldman Sachs of the world go untouched while everyone else suffers....
> Can you tell I'm a little short of caffeine this morning? :laugh:


I have a 2015 Gold TDI and am not the least bit pissed. Nor do I feel I've been kicked in the nuts. At all.

We're talking about tens of *billions* of dollars of potential liability. The scandal only came to light nine months ago. To be on the precipice of a resolution of the civil claims already is pretty darn quick.

If you think this is slow, talk to the fishermen damaged by the 1989 Exxon Valdez spill, or the defendants in the 1990 McLibel case.

I realize there's still a ways to go, and this could still go off the rails. But we've come a long way in just nine months.

Oh, and if the leaked settlement terms are accurate, my nuts and I will be very satisfied.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> So basically: FU EU. If you wanted in on the cash grab, you should have adopted standards that were as good as the US standards.


So, even if their standards were still too stringent for VW, and VW had the 'cheat' device installed in those vehicles, it doesn't matter because their standards weren't as great as U.S. standards?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Chilcoot said:


> I have a 2015 Gold TDI and am not the least bit pissed. Nor do I feel I've been kicked in the nuts. At all.


Yup it seems those most outraged are those who don't own a TDI or planned to keep it for life anyway and outside some rare case it got totaled before a pay out might lose some money but otherwise would be fine.

As mentioned before I have one for sale since right before this broke (that I"m paying for insuring and not even driving) and I'm less outraged at the time taken then many people who are not even remotely involved in this, makes no sense. :screwy:


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> So, even if their standards were still too stringent for VW, and VW had the 'cheat' device installed in those vehicles, it doesn't matter because their standards weren't as great as U.S. standards?


I think what AZGolf means, is the situation in Europe and the US are different, and therefore, different compensation between American and European customers is justified.

In the Europe, the cars can be brought into compliance with a software update and the little plastic air flow straightener thingy.

In the US, it's possible some or most of the cars logistically cannot be brought into compliance. Other cars likely have impacts to drivability (power, fuel economy) and/or cost-of-ownership. The pre-DEF cars with LNT catalysts would need SCRs and DEF tanks added -- they may not have room in and under the car for that equipment. The DEF+SCR cars may need larger DEF tanks so they can at least make it to an oil change interval before refilling is required, and the SCRs may not be large enough to last at least 120,000 miles before they become ash-loaded. The SCR is an expensive piece of equipment, so it can have a huge impact on cost-of-ownership.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

BUJonathan said:


> I think what AZGolf means, is the situation in Europe and the US are different, and therefore, different compensation between American and European customers is justified.
> 
> In the Europe, the cars can be brought into compliance with a software update and the little plastic air flow straightener thingy.


That's exactly the point, thank you. The EU standards are lax enough for VW to meet them (at least according to German regulators who already approved VW's fix) with only minor changes. The other factor is that although the momentary emissions for the VWs was 40x the US limit, it's likely that over the whole FTP-75 test it was something more like 10x the US limit. So the EU limit is 4x higher, which implies even by the US FTP-75 test, the EU cars were perhaps only 2.5x the limit. Furthermore, the EU's NEDC is far easier to pass than the US tests. If we say it's about 30% easier, then the 2.5x of the limit for the EU is more like 1.75x the limit.

So what does that leave you with? US cars that are 10x the limit and EU cars that are 1.75x the limit. The EU cars were simply so much easier to fix that they aren't in the same boat as their US counterparts, thus they are not entitled to any money. We'll get more details tomorrow, but it's looking increasingly likely that at least half or more of the US cars won't even be possible to bring into compliance at all. That's a big deal compared to the EU where they just need an ECU reflash and in some cases an airflow straightener before the MAF to pass Euro5 emissions.


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

Silly_me said:


> So, even if their standards were still too stringent for VW, and VW had the 'cheat' device installed in those vehicles, it doesn't matter because their standards weren't as great as U.S. standards?


No. It's different because VW designed and installed the defeat code specifically to defeat the EPA (US) test protocol -- not EU protocols. VW took willful action to specifically defraud the US government and consumers. 

It just so happens that one of the byproducts (aside from additional NOx, amirite ) of VW's specific targeting of US testing is that it also helped VW defraud EU customers. The difference, though, being that because EU's emissions standards aren't as stringent as the EPA's, the EU diesels can be brought into compliance with EU regs. It remains to be seen whether or not US-spec diesels can be brought into compliance with EPA regs. I guess we'll find that part out tomorrow.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> The EU cars were simply so much easier to fix that they aren't in the same boat as their US counterparts, thus they are not entitled to any money.


Sounds to me she is rallying for the 'general compensation money' being paid to American's for their mental anguish, not anything to do with the possible buyback/fix of the cars. What makes an American more distraught than a European over being deceived?


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> Sounds to me she is rallying for the 'general compensation money' being paid to American's for their mental anguish, not anything to do with the possible buyback/fix of the cars. What makes an American more distraught than a European over being deceived?


Class Action Lawsuits. That's the main difference.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Silly_me said:


> Sounds to me she is rallying for the 'general compensation money' being paid to American's for their mental anguish, not anything to do with the possible buyback/fix of the cars. What makes an American more distraught than a European over being deceived?


How about the drop in resale value? Do you think this has effected European owned VW TDI models in a similar way as US owned TDI models?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Hajduk said:


> Class Action Lawsuits. That's the main difference.


You ruin all the fun


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> Sounds to me she is rallying for the 'general compensation money' being paid to American's for their mental anguish, not anything to do with the possible buyback/fix of the cars. What makes an American more distraught than a European over being deceived?


Europeans know that when all is said and done their cars will be fixed fairly easily, but U.S. customers don't even know if they're going to have a car they can drive. That's a pretty big difference.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Air and water do mix said:


> That's a pretty big difference.


Overlooking the possibility of a buy back at pre-scandal price, if all U.S. cars could be fixed easily, would you be okay not getting your pound of flesh payout?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> Overlooking the possibility of a buy back at pre-scandal price, if all U.S. cars could be fixed easily, would you be okay not getting your pound of flesh payout?


Pound of flesh being simply punitive damages? I'd be 100% ok with not getting anything. In that case it is essentially like any other safety or emissions recall and my car was made into what it was supposed to be, I was made whole.

Now due to stigma around it and the loss in value which has meant lose thousands of dollars selling it, or keep paying for a car I don't need. Seeing no compensation for that would bother me. If however they announced a fix and values bounced back, again totally fine and I'd just be a little annoyed that I had to keep it longer than planned. But I own and have owned numerous cars I kept in some cases for years longer than planned out of pure laziness so I could easily overlook it.


----------



## Dirtmvr (Feb 28, 2016)

chris86vw said:


> Pound of flesh being simply punitive damages? I'd be 100% ok with not getting anything. In that case it is essentially like any other safety or emissions recall and my car was made into what it was supposed to be, I was made whole.
> 
> Now due to stigma around it and the loss in value which has meant lose thousands of dollars selling it, or keep paying for a car I don't need. Seeing no compensation for that would bother me. If however they announced a fix and values bounced back, again totally fine and I'd just be a little annoyed that I had to keep it longer than planned. But I own and have owned numerous cars I kept in some cases for years longer than planned out of pure laziness so I could easily overlook it.


You're right in that if they can fix it without any long term impact, life is good. They've said it won't impact performance or fuel economy...but silent on longevity of components, so I suspect that's where you're going to need to spend your money in the long run once you're outside the warranty. I haven't heard them mention any extension of warranty...and I'm sure there's a reason for that.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

IF the fix adds a 7/100K bumper to bumper warranty...FROM THIS POINT

EDIT: added clarification.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Phil Pugliese said:


> IF the fix adds a 7/100K bumper to bumper warranty...


^Because God knows the factory DPF's on the non-urea cars can't make it to 120k anyway even with the excess emissions lol


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Phil Pugliese said:


> IF the fix adds a 7/100K bumper to bumper warranty...














Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Dirtmvr said:


> I haven't heard them mention any extension of warranty...and I'm sure there's a reason for that.


Because you also haven't heard them mention an actual fix, can't extend the warranty on something that doesn't exist. 


The reason a fix would likely not change performance or economy is that that these systems are after the combustion process and not add any extra restriction in a way that would reduce either the output or the economy. 


If for example the software fixes the late vehicles like my 2015 and no hardware is needed only increasing for example the urea consumption I really still don't care. I didn't go into owning it with any expectation of consumption and if I did it likely would have been based on other vehicles which already consumed more. Plus they gave me a grand (2 actually) so if 10% of that goes to the slightly extra urea consumption over the course of the car it's ok with me.


----------



## Dirtmvr (Feb 28, 2016)

chris86vw said:


> Because you also haven't heard them mention an actual fix, can't extend the warranty on something that doesn't exist.
> 
> 
> The reason a fix would likely not change performance or economy is that that these systems are after the combustion process and not add any extra restriction in a way that would reduce either the output or the economy.
> ...


There is no way in hell the fix is only going to involve increased urea consumption alone--if that was the case we wouldn't even be having this discussion. There will be different hardware required and I think the only reason they are avoiding changing the performance or economy is to keep from being sued even further by owners. At the end of the day I think one or both of these is going to have to suffer in order to minimize the changes to the emissions gear. The EPA is going to be putting massive pressure on them to maintain the emissions output which is going to mean either replacing components far more often or giving in and changing economy and performance. Anyway...it's all a guess at this point...they'll put it off as long as possible and the fix will be spooned out over many years to help them finance the hit.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW's U.S. settlement to grow to $15 billion in emissions scandal, report says*



> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen AG’s price tag to settle lawsuits in the U.S. over its rigging of diesel emissions tests has jumped to more than $15 billion -- $5 billion more than previously reported -- on the eve of a settlement to be filed Tuesday in a San Francisco court.
> 
> Car owners will get a total of $10.03 billion, which covers both the value of their vehicles before the scandal became public last September and compensation payments of as much as $10,000 apiece, two people familiar with the negotiations told Bloomberg.
> 
> ...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Dirtmvr said:


> There is no way in hell the fix is only going to involve increased urea consumption alone--if that was the case we wouldn't even be having this discussion.


You realize there are 3 different versions of the emissions system right?

We'd be having this discussion no matter what since one of them doesn't have a urea system at all. 




> There will be different hardware required and I think the only reason they are avoiding changing the performance or economy is to keep from being sued even furthoer by owners.


No they can avoid changing the economy or performance because the hardware required doesn't necessarily change the economy or performance.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

spockcat said:


> Car owners will get a total of $10.03 billion, which covers both the value of their vehicles before the scandal became public last September and *compensation payments of as much as $10,000 apiece*, two people familiar with the negotiations told Bloomberg.


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

Mazda 3s said:


>


HHahaha. 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## CostcoPizza (Jan 20, 2008)

$15 billion eh?

That could buy a bunch of solar panels, plant a whole 'lotta trees, and be a huge investment in biotech startups working on low nitrogen agriculture stuffs (the largest source of NOx).


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> No they can avoid changing the economy or performance because the hardware required doesn't necessarily change the economy or performance.


It's not that simple. As you decrease NOx emissions, soot emissions increase. So, if VW were to simply just increase the dosing rate of the DEF, increase the EGR, or retard the timing to fix the NOx problem, then you would fill up the DPF too quickly. Increased EGR also hurts fuel economy and power.

To mitigate filling up the DPF, you need to upsize the filter size to extend its life and perform regens. More frequent regens also hurts fuel economy.


----------



## driveareliablecar (Jan 28, 2003)

Devastating settlement. Wonder who is going down next?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

article said:


> compensation payments of as much as $10,000 apiece


Damn those Europeans are greedy bastards


----------



## Atl-Atl (Jun 7, 2006)

Yeah, $10,000 a piece on fully loaded lux package Touaregs, not the lowly entry level golf and jsw tdi's that are the root of the problem. They'll be getting tree fiddy.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Atl-Atl said:


> Yeah, $10,000 a piece on fully loaded lux package Touaregs, not the lowly entry level golf and jsw tdi's that are the root of the problem. They'll be getting tree fiddy.


Teg's aren't even included in this round of negotiations.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> Overlooking the possibility of a buy back at pre-scandal price, if all U.S. cars could be fixed easily, would you be okay not getting your pound of flesh payout?


I don't assume that they'll be fixed easily. it doesn't appear that they will. We'll see.

It's no skin off my nose, I don't have one.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Interesting:



> *Prior owners will get half of current owners*, while people who leased cars will also get compensation, said the original source.


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-settlement-idUSKCN0ZD2S5


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

E CODE said:


> Teg's aren't even included in this round of negotiations.


hopefully we'll get a few bills thrown our way.... someday.


----------



## jddaigle (May 30, 2003)

Air and water do mix said:


> It's no skin off my nose, *I don't have one.*


Pics?

...er, on second thought, never mind.


----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

rich! said:


> hopefully we'll get a few bills thrown our way.... someday.


They better not take the car away. A Touareg isn't really worth owning if it's not a diesel. I won't buy another one unless it's a TDI. 

I suspect the fix for the 3.0 will be simple, though.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

eweu said:


> They better not take the car away. A Touareg isn't really worth owning if it's not a diesel. I won't buy another one unless it's a TDI.
> 
> I suspect the fix for the 3.0 will be simple, though.


love it but mine at ~5yrs and 50k starting to show that extended warranty is worth it.



Mazda 3s said:


> Interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-settlement-idUSKCN0ZD2S5



oh that is very nice if the previous owner thing works out... ring up 2 please.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

jddaigle said:


> Pics?
> 
> ...er, on second thought, never mind.


Hearty chuckles ensued. :laugh: :beer:


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

rich! said:


> love it but mine at ~5yrs and 50k starting to show that extended warranty is worth it.


Such as? Curious what has failed. My '14 eats tires but that's it so far.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

Bird67 said:


> Such as? Curious what has failed. My '14 eats tires but that's it so far.


tires too  adblue pump related stuff on 3rd one (plus some clogged lines, bad valve, nox sensors, etc), headlights, fuel pump, switches going out, heated seats (2) and other stuff probably forgetting about.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Air and water do mix said:


> I don't assume that they'll be fixed easily. it doesn't appear that they will. We'll see.
> 
> It's no skin off my nose, I don't have one.


 It was a fictional scenario set against your reasoning behind why the european owners shouldn't be getting a compensation payout (note: not buyback money or fix). Confidently knowing the outcome (getting car fixed v buyback) has nothing to do with the now rumored $10k compensatory payout (which is above and beyond the pre-scandal value buyback, which renders the diminished value rabble rabble a moot point).

What makes American owners more deserving?

_Warning: This post conflicts with Accidental L8 apex's Second law of Car Lounge Posting, further transgressions will result in electroshock therapy_


----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

rich! said:


> love it but mine at ~5yrs and 50k starting to show that extended warranty is worth it.


Yeah that's the whole point I guess. I'd buy another one tomorrow if I could get a TDI.

My 2011 has been flawless. Best car I've ever owned.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

eweu said:


> Yeah that's the whole point I guess. I'd buy another one tomorrow if I could get a TDI.
> 
> My 2011 has been flawless. Best car I've ever owned.


Not ours, but still love it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

rich! said:


> tires too  adblue pump related stuff on 3rd one (plus some clogged lines, bad valve, nox sensors, etc), headlights, fuel pump, switches going out, heated seats (2) and other stuff probably forgetting about.


Ouch. I'm hoping two years' production ironed that out. Mine has been a trouble free 16 months and I'd like it to stay that way. Tremendous vehicle. That is why I'm paying close attention to what they choose to do with the 3.0s. I wouldn't have chosen to own the petrol version.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

I am glad we are getting to closure here. Now, how much does VW want to keep us as customers?


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

My current '12 4dr needed a new fuse block as the original one had "melted" my former '13 2dr had a suspension issue that 3 different dealers couldn't figure out. Can't wait for tomorrow...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

Phil Pugliese said:


> I am glad we are getting to closure here. Now, how much does VW want to keep us as customers?


Well, they are off to a good start with both the 1000 bucks they gave us, and the 2k off a new VW purchase for being a TDI owner.......


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Today's New York Times article for the hours leading up to today's expected announcement.










Key lines:

_The cash compensation offered to each car owner will range from *$5,100 to $10,000*. Both the buyback price and amount of the additional compensation will depend on the cars’ value before Volkswagen’s public admission last September that its supposed “clean diesel” cars had been deliberately designed to cheat on air-quality tests.

. . .

Rather than sell their vehicles back to Volkswagen, car owners in the United States can also choose to have their vehicles fixed to meet emissions standards, although doing so would probably reduce the engines’ performance and gas mileage.

. . .

Particularly attractive is the combination of the buyback offer and cash payment, which appears to be the better option for consumers, Mr. Uhlmann said. (David M. Uhlmann, a former chief of the Justice Department’s Environmental Crimes Section who is now a law professor at the University of Michigan.)

“It’s hard to see why consumers would want to take advantage of the fix and not the buyback option, unless they just love their cars,” he said. “For Volkswagen, it’s an extremely expensive settlement, far more than many analysts predicted.”

. . .

The settlement still is subject to review by a federal judge and a public comment period, which might take until fall. But if the deal is approved, it will require Volkswagen to begin acting as soon as possible. *All repairs and payments are to be made no later than December 2018.*_


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

"Prior owners will get half of current owners"

Explain (or predict, since we'll find out in a few hours anyway)? What is a prior owner? Anyone who owned a 2.0 tdi? Or anyone who sold their 2.0 tdi after September 2015? I bought a brand new '13 Golf TDI w/tech. I got a very good trade for it when I bought the '14 Touareg TDI, in March 2015 (ie before the news broke). So I'm a "prior owner" I suppose, but how was a 2.0 tdi owner like me harmed economically? The only way paying a prior 2.0 tdi owner like me is rational is if the settlement pays people for the fraud of paying for a vehicle that polluted too much, even though we had no idea about it while it was happening... :screwy:

And in other news...

"Reuters reported earlier the initial VW settlement would not include civil penalties under the U.S. Clean Air Act or address about 85,000 larger 3.0 liter Audi, Porsche and VW vehicles that emitted less pollution than 2.0 liter vehicles. *A deal covering the 3.0 liter vehicles may still be months away.*" opcorn:


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

Oh the anticipation is killing me! If the deal is approved, who thinks we will see $ before the end of 2016? I hope so because there are some 2016's out there my eyes are on


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> It was a fictional scenario set against your reasoning behind why the european owners shouldn't be getting a compensation payout (note: not buyback money or fix). Confidently knowing the outcome (getting car fixed v buyback) has nothing to do with the now rumored $10k compensatory payout (which is above and beyond the pre-scandal value buyback, which renders the diminished value rabble rabble a moot point).
> 
> What makes American owners more deserving?
> 
> _Warning: This post conflicts with Accidental L8 apex's Second law of Car Lounge Posting, further transgressions will result in electroshock therapy_


Reportedly European standards are going to be easy to meet, so the fix means that they'll have to go in and get a software flash. Nothing more. That simply isn't worth $5-10,000. How would it be worth that?


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

Bird67 said:


> "Prior owners will get half of current owners"
> 
> Explain (or predict, since we'll find out in a few hours anyway)? What is a prior owner? Anyone who owned a 2.0 tdi? Or anyone who sold their 2.0 tdi after September 2015? I


my guess is all due to paying a premium over gassers (think this would quell the ftc lawsuit)


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

Silly_me said:


> What makes American owners more deserving?


because. murica.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Bird67 said:


> "Prior owners will get half of current owners"
> 
> Explain (or predict, since we'll find out in a few hours anyway)? What is a prior owner? Anyone who owned a 2.0 tdi? *Or anyone who sold their 2.0 tdi after September 2015?*


Anyone who sold after Sept 2015, so says the NYT article (which is just re-hashing previous news from Bloomberg which didn't have this info, nor the compensation amounts in it).

So... there's no source for this info at all...


----------



## ktm8806 (Feb 14, 2005)

Does anyone know what time the announcement will be? I see a source that says it will happen from Washington. A live feed would be awesome!


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Air and water do mix said:


> Reportedly European standards are going to be easy to meet, so the fix means that they'll have to go in and get a software flash. Nothing more. That simply isn't worth $5-10,000. How would it be worth that?


How is it worth a buyback *PLUS* $5-10k in the U.S.A? Was VW's lie really that much more painful for the delicate American sense of morality to recover from?


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Curious what will happen to me since I bought mine post September (just before the cut-off for the $1k payout). Sounds like the previous owner of my car will get cash (maybe half) but then I have to deal with what to do with the car. Plus mine was a lease trade in.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

UPDATED story from yesterday:

VW's U.S. settlement to grow to $15 billion in emissions scandal, report says





> - UPDATED: 6/28/16 4:12 CET - new story
> 
> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen AG's settlement with nearly 500,000 U.S. diesel owners and government regulators over polluting vehicles is valued at more than $15 billion cash, two sources briefed on the matter told Reuters on Monday.
> 
> ...


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

.yuk. said:


> Curious what will happen to me since I bought mine post September (just before the cut-off for the $1k payout). Sounds like the previous owner of my car will get cash (maybe half) but then I have to deal with what to do with the car. Plus mine was a lease trade in.


I have a feeling that you'll live with the $1K payout... but might also make some off of the buyback too (if you choose that route).


----------



## alvis22 (Jun 28, 2016)

E CODE said:


> I have a feeling that you'll live with the $1K payout... but might also make some off of the buyback too (if you choose that route).


And you'll have until Dec 2018 to make that buyback decision. Seems like you likely got a great deal on a car, received $1k in addition, and have the ability to enjoy it for another 2.5 years before making the decision on which is more cost effective - keeping the car or selling it back.

Not too shabby even if you didn't hit the homerun in compensation.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

E CODE said:


> I have a feeling that you'll live with the $1K payout... but might also make some off of the buyback too (if you choose that route).


So I could be stuck with not much here besides hoping they buy it back for more than I paid, and the people who leased the car before me will get paid. 

This could be interesting.


----------



## alvis22 (Jun 28, 2016)

.yuk. said:


> So I could be stuck with not much here besides hoping they buy it back for more than I paid, and the people who leased the car before me will get paid.
> 
> This could be interesting.


The argument would be that you weren't deceived in any way. You bought the car fully knowing it's deficiencies after the scandal broke.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

.yuk. said:


> So I could be stuck with not much here besides hoping they buy it back for more than I paid, and the people who leased the car before me will get paid.
> 
> This could be interesting.


Could be... but if that's the case, I bet you paid less than what it was valued pre-September due to the market drop of the scandal - so you are probably still in a good spot. 

On another note *October*!! 

That means owners will have paid over a years worth of payments since the scandal happened... I wonder if we'll get a years worth of interest back on loans?


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> How is it worth a buyback *PLUS* $5-10k in the U.S.A? Was VW's lie really that much more painful for the delicate American sense of morality to recover from?


I never said it was. I think it's overkill. Waaaay overkill. I nearly bought a TDI Jetta a couple of months before the scandal broke (they were dealing) and I could've landed a big payout. If I got one I'd take it, but I wouldn't feel deserving.

All I'm saying is that in Europe it's not worth the big payout. How ridiculous would it be over there for the same payout? "Here, sir/madam, have a seat. We'll be done with your software flash in a few minutes. Would you like a spot of tea? Oh, and here's a check for $5,000 American." While it's overkill here, it'd be insane over there. Partly because it's a simple fix and partly because with the high number of affected cars the company would simply be _gone_.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I did get a good deal! But it won't be a good deal if my 12' JSW is only worth $10k now. Then I just watched the previous lease owner make it rain. Plus not even have to deal with having the car.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

BUJonathan said:


> It's not that simple. As you decrease NOx emissions, soot emissions increase. So, if VW were to simply just increase the dosing rate of the DEF, increase the EGR, or retard the timing to fix the NOx problem, then you would fill up the DPF too quickly. Increased EGR also hurts fuel economy and power.
> 
> To mitigate filling up the DPF, you need to upsize the filter size to extend its life and perform regens. More frequent regens also hurts fuel economy.


DEF injection is post DPF and would not increase load no the DPF

While there is still an EGR system the use of EGR is part of what increased soot while reducing NOx, the SCR systems allow them to reduce the use of the EGR system. In reality increased DEF usage may reduce soot overall and the load on the DPF if they are relying less on EGR. I can actually feel the low pressure EGR flapper engaging on my CR140 (no DEF system) but have have never once felt the same hiccup from the flap closing in my Cr150 (had DEF). 

Since the engine doesn't have to rely on the EGR overall soot production can be REDUCED with increased DEF usage, which reduces DPF regeneration, which increases economy which reduces restrictions which increases performance.. So basically the opposite of what you claim, which applies to old school NOx reduction like EGR. 


Also if you increase the size of the DPF it does not automatically mean that the regens are more frequent. If I have a hose that can flow 1gallon per minute and I put it in a 1 gallon bucket it I would need to empty it every minute. If I increase the hose flow to 2 gallons per minute but change the bucket to 2 gallons I will still need to empty them at the same frequency.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

E CODE said:


> That means owners will have paid over a years worth of payments since the scandal happened... I wonder if we'll get a years worth of interest back on loans?


Why should owners who borrowed versus paid cash get interest back on loans? Interest is the cost of borrowing money, not to do with the cost of the vehicle and is not paid to VW. Owners who paid cash have lost opportunity cost. Should VW pay those owners for their lost opportunity cost?


----------



## Volkl (Oct 2, 2003)

spockcat said:


> Why should owners who borrowed versus paid cash get interest back on loans? Interest is the cost of borrowing money, not to do with the cost of the vehicle and is not paid to VW. Owners who paid cash have lost opportunity cost. Should VW pay those owners for their lost opportunity cost?


To be fair, my car is financed through VW Credit, so the money is going back to a VW subsidiary. However, my interest rate is .9%, I'm not going to whine about it.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/

So much for getting our money quickly :laugh:


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

I wonder how bad the economy and power will be after the "fix". If so how would that affect something like a tune? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

From VW:



> *If I am a former owner or lessee, am I eligible to participate in the proposed Settlements?*
> 
> If you owned an eligible vehicle on or before September 18, 2015 and sold it before June 28, 2016, you may be eligible to participate. Likewise, if you were leasing an eligible vehicle as of September 18, 2015, you may be eligible to participate.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

> German automaker Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) has agreed to pay more than $15.3 billion in a settlement with U.S. regulators over pollution caused by its diesel vehicles, according to a source briefed on the matter.
> 
> The settlement stems from VW's admission in September that it intentionally misled regulators by installing secret software that allowed U.S. vehicles to emit up to 40 times legally allowable pollution. It covers 475,000 2.0-liter vehicles.
> 
> ...


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-settlement-idUSKCN0ZD2S5


----------



## Eye Candy White (Nov 9, 2006)

If people who owned and sold cars prior to September 18, 2015 get cash settlements, I'm going to be really disappointed in our legal system.

People who didn't know about the scandal and sold their car prior to September 18, 2015 were never impacted financially, emotionally, socially, etc. by any of this.

That has the feels of a cash grab, and is incredibly dumb.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Eye Candy White said:


> If people who owned and sold cars prior to September 18, 2015 get cash settlements, I'm going to be really disappointed in our legal system.
> 
> People who didn't know about the scandal and sold their car prior to September 18, 2015 were never impacted financially, emotionally, socially, etc. by any of this.
> 
> That has the feels of a cash grab, and is incredibly dumb.


If you read a few posts this has already been addresses (and it doesn't apply to those folks)

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...0-vehicles&p=97747417&viewfull=1#post97747417


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Mazda 3s said:


> From VW:





> *If I am a former owner or lessee, am I eligible to participate in the proposed Settlements?*
> 
> If you owned an eligible vehicle on or before September 18, 2015 and sold it before June 28, 2016, you may be eligible to participate. Likewise, if you were leasing an eligible vehicle as of September 18, 2015, you may be eligible to participate.


So if you bought your TDI AFTER September 18, 2015 thinking that you might reap some reward you are SOL.


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

Mazda 3s said:


> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-settlement-idUSKCN0ZD2S5
> 
> Volkswagen must repair or buy back 85 percent of the 475,000 vehicles by June 2019 or face penalties of $100 million for every percentage point it falls below that figure.


Does this mean I can keep driving my car, without fixing any emissions equipment, until June 2019, still get the same buy-out?


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Mazda 3s said:


> https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/


Anyone tried the VIN lookup yet?

It doesn't find my Canadian TDI (didn't think it would, as we had a different site to sign up for the $1K credits too).


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

spockcat said:


> So if you bought your TDI AFTER September 18, 2015 thinking that you might reap some reward you are SOL.


As they should be :laugh:opcorn:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Blonde Guy said:


> Does this mean I can keep driving my car, without fixing any emissions equipment, until June 2019, still get the same buy-out?


Owners have until December 2018 according to this article.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

E CODE said:


> Anyone tried the VIN lookup yet?
> 
> It doesn't find my Canadian TDI (didn't think it would, as we had a different site to sign up for the $1K credits too).


Yes. Put in my son's VIN, it identified his car and I signed him/his email for updated info. VW put $1,000,000 in his bank account for being in the first 100 owners to use the system. He was #99.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

E CODE said:


> Anyone tried the VIN lookup yet?


yes:


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

spockcat said:


> So if you bought your TDI AFTER September 18, 2015 thinking that you might reap some reward you are SOL.


Not quite... sounds like you still can get the car bought back as the settlement applies to all current owners (we'll need the court docs to confirm though). 

So, if you bought the car after the scandal broke, for a value lower than KBB or whatever they use to determine value... when they buy it back, you might get it bought for more than you paid. It's not much... but it's something.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

E CODE said:


> Anyone tried the VIN lookup yet?


Both of mine work.

Site is linked to a kinsell media, which does settlement websites.

And it appears Feinburg? still vw lawyer right? has used them in the past.



Still I will wait to confirm this is the right site before putting all my contact info in.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

> VW cannot resell or export the vehicles bought back unless the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency approves a fix, the documents said. Volkswagen must repair or buy back 85 percent of the 475,000 vehicles by June 2019 or face penalties of $100 million for every percentage point it falls below that figure.


So if close to the end of the buyback/fix period, VW is coming up short, they may start to pay more for buybacks? Is it worth taking the risk and driving your car unfixed until December 2018?


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> Both of mine work.
> 
> Site is linked to a kinsell media, which does settlement websites.
> 
> ...


Agreed, I am not 100% sure this is really *"Official"*


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> Agreed, I am not 100% sure this is really "Official"


It's legit. It's linked from https://www.vwdieselinfo.com which is directly linked from http://www.vw.com


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Mazda 3s said:


> It's legit. It's linked from https://www.vwdieselinfo.com which is directly linked from http://www.vw.com


and it's in the EPA press release, along with www.AudiCourtSettlement.com


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

From the EPA:



> *Buyback option*: Volkswagen must offer to buy back any affected 2.0 liter vehicle at their retail value as of September 2015 -- just prior to the public disclosure of the emissions issue. Consumers who choose the buyback option will receive between $12,500 and $44,000, depending on their car’s model, year, mileage, and trim of the car, as well as the region of the country where it was purchased. In addition, because a straight buyback will not fully compensate consumers who owe more than their car is worth due to rapid depreciation, the FTC order provides these consumers with an option to have their loans forgiven by Volkswagen. Consumers who have third party loans have the option of having Volkswagen pay off those loans, up to 130 percent of the amount a consumer would be entitled to under the buyback (e.g., if the consumer is entitled to a $20,000 buyback, VW would pay off his/her loans up to a cap of $26,000).


https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/vo...ations-cheating-emissions-tests-and-deceiving


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Mazda 3s said:


> From the EPA: https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/vo...ations-cheating-emissions-tests-and-deceiving


So even if VW tries to lowball owners... they still lose.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Mazda 3s said:


> It's legit. It's linked from https://www.vwdieselinfo.com which is directly linked from http://www.vw.com


Right on, thanks!


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/crb/vwmdl/proposed-settlement#Owners


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

This is for the Canadians, from vwemissionsinfo.ca 



> On June 28, Volkswagen reached proposed settlements regarding the 2.0L TDI vehicles in the United States, including a proposed class settlement with U.S. consumers. The proposed settlements are subject to the approval of a U.S. federal court.
> 
> This filing concerns the consolidated U.S. court proceedings in the U.S. market. In Canada, parties to proposed class proceedings are in discussions about potential settlements and remedies for affected 2.0L TDI vehicles nationally. The parties aim to provide a progress update to Canadian Courts on or before July 29, 2016.
> 
> ...


This is just lip service to placate us Canucks - VW Canada already confirmed that the US settlement applies to Canadians too as the Canadian cars are also EPA certified (this is straight from VW Canada). I'm sure Canadians will get the same treatment as the US (our emissions are stricter than the EPA's anyway). 

I'm sure this statement talks about repairs simply because that's what the rest of the site has always talked about - but there's no way they are repairing Canadian cars and not the US ones. Plus, we got the exact same $1,000 offer as the US did, just a month later.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

EPA said:


> Buyback option: Volkswagen must offer to buy back any affected 2.0 liter vehicle at their retail value as of September 2015 -- just prior to the public disclosure of the emissions issue. *Consumers who choose the buyback option will receive between $12,500 and $44,000, depending on their car’s model, year, mileage, and trim of the car, as well as the region of the country where it was purchased.* In addition, because a straight buyback will not fully compensate consumers who owe more than their car is worth due to rapid depreciation, the FTC order provides these consumers with an option to have their loans forgiven by Volkswagen. Consumers who have third party loans have the option of having Volkswagen pay off those loans, up to 130 percent of the amount a consumer would be entitled to under the buyback (e.g., if the consumer is entitled to a $20,000 buyback, VW would pay off his/her loans up to a cap of $26,000).


Interesting that the EPA gave these numbers. It seems oddly specific.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

grawk said:


> http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/crb/vwmdl/proposed-settlement#Owners


HOLY CHEET

I owe $12,500 on my 2013 SW TDI, and it says I'm entitled to between $23,357 - $25,727 with combined buyback and cash payment. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::beer::beer::beer::beer:


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

wow, that EPA statement has some big numbers in there. So looks like minimum for an 09 tdi woudl be the $12.5k ?
Is this buyback value WITH the 5000$ "bribe" money in it, or is it 12.5k buyback price PLUS cash ontop?
Our car was originally a US car, imported to Canada later, then we brought it back to the states. VIN check says we are eligible in the program. (Purchased Feb 2015). 09 Highline DSG with 160k miles. 

May be close to that $20k figure i spit out before as a "guess". wow.
Shid id still be happy with 12.5k USD...


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Mazda 3s said:


> HOLY CHEET
> 
> I owe $12,500 on my 2013 SW TDI, and it says I'm entitled to between $23,357 - $25,727 combined buyback plus cash payment. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::beer::beer::beer::beer:


That's for all your pain and suffering. :beer::beer:


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

PolishSasquatch said:


> wow, that EPA statement has some big numbers in there. So looks like minimum for an 09 tdi woudl be the $12.5k ?
> Is this buyback value WITH the 5000$ "bribe" money in it, or is it 12.5k buyback price PLUS cash ontop?
> Our car was originally a US car, imported to Canada later, then we brought it back to the states. VIN check says we are eligible in the program. (Purchased Feb 2015). 09 Highline DSG with 160k miles.
> 
> ...


The Buyback figure includes the Cash payment plus the trade-in value of the car.


----------



## sohccammer427 (Mar 24, 2009)

*2015 ea288*

So does anybody want to guess what kind of fix would be required to a 2015 EA288 engine? I recently bought a 2015 Passat SE with only 2,800 miles. I really love the car and plan on keeping it. I would think that the EA288 with the urea injection would be one of the few models that VW would prefer owners keep because it may only require a minor programming fix. Possibly additional urea injection? 

If the EA288 require major modifications then VW is really in some deep doo doo. Anyone care to offer their .02 on this one?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

PolishSasquatch said:


> wow, that EPA statement has some big numbers in there. So looks like minimum for an 09 tdi woudl be the $12.5k ?
> Is this buyback value WITH the 5000$ "bribe" money in it, or is it 12.5k buyback price PLUS cash ontop?
> Our car was originally a US car, imported to Canada later, then we brought it back to the states. VIN check says we are eligible in the program. (Purchased Feb 2015). 09 Highline DSG with 160k miles.
> 
> ...


Buyback Option 1: Sell your car back to VW plus a cash payment for a combined total of: 2009 VW Jetta Sedan TDI $12,475 - $14,025


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

Mazda 3s said:


> The Buyback figure includes the Cash payment plus the trade-in value of the car.



in that case doesn't add up... pre market value for 09 tdis were aroudn 10-12k...so where the 5k cream money ontop of that??
POUND OF FLESH?!

Note: im not saying 12.5k isnt fair...just the math doesnt add up.


----------



## Moncton.:R (Jun 20, 2012)

E CODE said:


> This is for the Canadians, from vwemissionsinfo.ca
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wonder if this time around they'll factor in the exchange rate? At the time of the $1000 credit our dollar was worse and they never did. It's not that big of a deal when you're talking about $1000 but a $15k buyback in canadian would make a big difference.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

Mazda 3s said:


> From the EPA:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/vo...ations-cheating-emissions-tests-and-deceiving



Well I hope those that did not take a loan to purchase these vehicles receive similar compensation. Just because I didn't want borrow money to buy a car shouldn't mean we get a reduced settlement.

Edit: OK I would be cool with anything in this range for our 2014:



> VW Jetta SportWagen TDI$26,657 - $29,117​


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Someone tell me if you choose the buyback whether you only get the Amount in column #1 or both #1 and #2 together?

If its column #1 and column #2 we'd be getting roughly $34-36k combined for the JSW - I don't really want to get rid of it, but if this unknown fix has no details released it leaves me no choice - I'm not spending another 2 years of uncertainty - especially since the EPA is harping on this for compliance - again, my theory is that VW would rather make payments into a green energy fund than spend time hacking apart 1st gen TDI's to put in a urea tank, but I've been wrong before.

If its just column #1 for a buyback (including compensation) - we were well into positive equity at point of sale in June of 2015 - I think we purchased for $27k OTD, financed 18k - I have to check with my wife on whats remaining on the loan but last I checked it was around $16k - We'd basically be back to where we started if the buyback is just the amount on column 1 and VW isn't selling any new TDI's


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

EPA said:


> having Volkswagen pay off those loans, up to 130 percent of the amount a consumer would be entitled to under the buyback (e.g., if the consumer is entitled to a $20,000 buyback, VW would pay off his/her loans up to a cap of $26,000).
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/vo...ations-cheating-emissions-tests-and-deceiving


Jaysus Christ :laugh:


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

So much information being thrown around. I love my car, just trying to avoid it becoming a paperweight in my driveway. Since I purchased post 9/18 :laugh:


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

PolishSasquatch said:


> in that case doesn't add up... pre market value for 09 tdis were aroudn 10-12k...so where the 5k cream money ontop of that??
> POUND OF FLESH?!
> 
> Note: im not saying 12.5k isnt fair...just the math doesnt add up.


My '11 was worth 10-13k at that time and the compensation chart puts me at $17,657 - $19,817 which is exactly what I would expect if they were offering ~$5000 in compensation on top of the trade-in. Maybe you were looking at private party value?


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

possibly. I was just going off memory of what the auto trader and local ads had them listed for, not dealer trade in prices, as we wanted to purchase PP.



PnZrFsT said:


> My '11 was worth 10-13k at that time and the compensation chart puts me at $17,657 - $19,817 which is exactly what I would expect if they were offering ~$5000 in compensation on top of the trade-in. Maybe you were looking at private party value?


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Someone tell me if you choose the buyback whether you only get the Amount in column #1 or both #1 and #2 together?
> (


It's pretty obvious if you read it carefully.

Option 1: Sell your car back to VW *plus a cash payment* for a *combined total* of:


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

VW to owners who take just the cash:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

PolishSasquatch said:


> in that case doesn't add up... pre market value for 09 tdis were aroudn 10-12k...so where the 5k cream money ontop of that??
> POUND OF FLESH?!


It really wasn't that much on an 09 especially with the mileage you claim. I was looking at 12k or so for my 2012 with 80k and it is flawless. 

Also they do NOT seem to be doing pre scandal pricing, which makes absolute sense when you think about the terms of this buy back. They are giving people 2+ years to decide. Why sholud they pay you sept 2015 prices to put in some cases for some people another 100k on the car?

The 130% seems to be based on current values at the time of trade in to cover the value today plus factoring in a loss due to the scandal, as per the EPA press release.


----------



## Moncton.:R (Jun 20, 2012)

I think there may be a few bugs in their numbers.

How could a '10 JSW be $14,775 - $16,607 when the golf 2D is $15,025 - $16,877?


----------



## tacticalbeaver (Apr 27, 2006)

I'm dense. Where are people finding this compensation chart that is being discussed?

Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk


----------



## texd (Jun 30, 2006)

Alright, here is the actual court documents filing, in case I missed someone else posting it.


For those looking at a repair:



> 5. Owner Restitution.
> a. For an Eligible Owner who acquired the Eligible Vehicle on or before September
> 18, 2015, Owner Restitution shall be comprised of (1) a variable component
> equaling 20% of the Vehicle Value; and (2) a fixed component of the greater of
> ...


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

seftonm said:


> I'm dense. Where are people finding this compensation chart that is being discussed?
> 
> Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk


http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/crb/vwmdl/proposed-settlement#Owners


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

PolishSasquatch said:


> in that case doesn't add up... pre market value for 09 tdis were aroudn 10-12k...so where the 5k cream money ontop of that??
> POUND OF FLESH?!
> 
> Note: im not saying 12.5k isnt fair...just the math doesnt add up.


You are kind of right on that but they aren't really that far off. 

According to KBB, the value *today* of a 2010 JSW TDI with 50,000 miles is between $8700 and $10,200. VW is giving $14,775 - $16,607. More than the current KBB value plus the $5100-$5200 bonus but less than what you should have expected in September 2015 plus the $5100-$5200 bonus. 

News reports have generally said that TDI models lost 15 to 20% of their value from the news of the cheating. So the current KBB value should be closer to $10,400 to $12,200. So VW is still paying over the estimated non-cheat value but not by the $5100-$5200 bonus payout. Of course, you should also factor in the additional $1000 that you should have signed up for earlier this year.


----------



## Moncton.:R (Jun 20, 2012)

seftonm said:


> I'm dense. Where are people finding this compensation chart that is being discussed?
> 
> Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk


http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/crb/vwmdl/proposed-settlement#Owners


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Moncton.:R said:


> I think there may be a few bugs in their numbers.
> 
> How could a '10 JSW be $14,775 - $16,607 when the golf 2D is $15,025 - $16,877?


A 2010 JSW is a mk5 with new headlights.

A 2010 Golf is a Mk6, so it is in reality a newer/nicer vehicle that is possible worth more because of the subtle changes.


----------



## sohccammer427 (Mar 24, 2009)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Someone tell me if you choose the buyback whether you only get the Amount in column #1 or both #1 and #2 together?
> 
> (


It clearly states:

Option 1: Sell your car back to VW plus a cash payment for a combined total of:

*OR*

Option 2: Keep your car, get a free modification to reduce emissions plus a cash payment of:

There is no ambiguity here.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> DEF injection is post DPF and would not increase load no the DPF
> 
> While there is still an EGR system the use of EGR is part of what increased soot while reducing NOx, the SCR systems allow them to reduce the use of the EGR system. In reality increased DEF usage may reduce soot overall and the load on the DPF if they are relying less on EGR. I can actually feel the low pressure EGR flapper engaging on my CR140 (no DEF system) but have have never once felt the same hiccup from the flap closing in my Cr150 (had DEF).
> 
> Since the engine doesn't have to rely on the EGR overall soot production can be REDUCED with increased DEF usage, which reduces DPF regeneration, which increases economy which reduces restrictions which increases performance.. So basically the opposite of what you claim, which applies to old school NOx reduction like EGR.


You're missing the point that the controls and tuning parameters are interrelated, particularly if the DPF, DEF, and catalyst are undersized. Simply having a DPF and DEF+catalyst doesn't completely break the compromise between soot vs. NOx. Just because the DEF is upstream of the catalyst doesn't mean that reducing NOx protects the DPF from soot. If you need proof that emissions tuning is a compromise, Consumer Reports tested a 2011 and 2015 in "cheat mode" with the emissions controls fully activated. Fuel economy was reduced.

If VW could have fixed the emissions on the 2015+ TDIs without impacting fuel economy, drivability, or the durability of the emissions controls, don't you think they would have by now? VW has literally thousands of 2015+ TDIs sitting on lots they can't sell.




chris86vw said:


> Also if you increase the size of the DPF it does not automatically mean that the regens are more frequent. If I have a hose that can flow 1gallon per minute and I put it in a 1 gallon bucket it I would need to empty it every minute. If I increase the hose flow to 2 gallons per minute but change the bucket to 2 gallons I will still need to empty them at the same frequency.


Not what I said. If you retune the engine to reduce NOx, you will likely increase the soot load into the DPF. This means you either need to increase the size of the DPF to extend its lifetime beyond 120,000 miles and/or regen more frequently. If VW doesn't have enough room on the vehicle to package a larger DPF, then they're painted into a corner.


----------



## sohccammer427 (Mar 24, 2009)

BUJonathan said:


> If VW could have fixed the emissions on the 2015+ TDIs without impacting fuel economy, drivability, or the durability of the emissions controls, don't you think they would have by now? VW has literally thousands of 2015+ TDIs sitting on lots they can't sell.


I just guessing but perhaps they can fix the 2015+ EA288 with minor computer code changes, but because the entire dieselgate issue had it all tied up in court VW's hands were tied? 

I'd prefer to keep my '15 Passat if there is no hardware/physical mods required. I could live with maybe a 5% mileage drop, but that's about the limit for me. The buyback amount is pretty generous. I paid $22,500 for my '15 Passat SE Tdi with less that 3,000 miles on it.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Moncton.:R said:


> I wonder if this time around they'll factor in the exchange rate? At the time of the $1000 credit our dollar was worse and they never did. It's not that big of a deal when you're talking about $1000 but a $15k buyback in canadian would make a big difference.


The effing better.... Or I'm going with a class action. 

I was fine losing $300 on the bribe.... but not losing out on $1000-2000... we paid for the car in Canadian, paid a premium compared to the US as well - so they better use Canadian market values and dollars....


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

Im waiting for attachment 2c to be uplaoded to see the mileage adjustments.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

Relevant links;

Vehicle buyback values;
https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/cases/att._1a_-_buyback_modification_table.pdf

Mileage adjustments charts:
Golf
Beetle and Jetta
Passat and A3


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

BUJonathan said:


> Just because the DEF is upstream of the catalyst doesn't mean that reducing NOx protects the DPF from soot.


It does actually, since the DEF solution to soot is post combustion and post DPF, things like EGR increase soot, DEF as far as I'm aware does not. Since EGR funciton can be reduced, DPF filling is reduce and overall soot is REDUCED. Also engine tuning can be done in a manner that also reduces soot producition when it is not replying on EGR for the bulk of the NOx reduction.





> If you need proof that emissions tuning is a compromise, Consumer Reports tested a 2011 and 2015 in "cheat mode" with the emissions controls fully activated. Fuel economy was reduced.


At the time of that being published I don't believe anyone knew exactly how to get the car in and out of test mode, heck it was still being debated and was unconfirmed months later right in this thread. They do not quote what they actually saw for a reduction or how they tested it. That doesn't doesn't mean a thing. The article is no better than the ones from a week ago stating they had all the answers about the settlement, its speculation. If they had legit numbers it would have included them. But they thank you for your help in generating ad revenue by bringing traffic back to an article that says nothing.




> If VW could have fixed the emissions on the 2015+ TDIs without impacting fuel economy, drivability, or the durability of the emissions controls, don't you think they would have by now?


No I don't because they were dealing with this lawsuit first. Having a fix for those would also mean thousands of people who owned identical vehicles would be banging down the doors at dealers demanding a fix. 






> Not what I said. If you retune the engine to reduce NOx, you will likely increase the soot load into the DPF.


Yes if you fixate on tuning changes required to deal with systems that rely heaving on EGR, which is not what I said I only spoke of increase DEF injection and you started going on about the problems related with EGR type NOx reduction. When you retune for systems that rely heavily on SCR then soot is REDUCED.


----------



## Moncton.:R (Jun 20, 2012)

E CODE said:


> The effing better.... Or I'm going with a class action.
> 
> I was fine losing $300 on the bribe.... but not losing out on $1000-2000... we paid for the car in Canadian, paid a premium compared to the US as well - so they better use Canadian market values and dollars....


My '10 JSW highline TDI would fetch the highest number for that car I'm guessing = $16,607 USD would be $21,730 CAD. That's not a difference of 1-2k...


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

damn...-3k for 160k miles on the 09...doesnt look like a buyback is so nice looking anymore...

who the hell has 90k miles on an 09 tdi???


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

PolishSasquatch said:


> damn...-3k for 160k miles on the 09...doesnt look like a buyback is so nice looking anymore...
> 
> who the hell has 90k miles on an 09 tdi???


Who has 90,000 miles on an 09 car? People to drive the statistically average 12k miles a year.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Moncton.:R said:


> My '10 JSW highline TDI would fetch the highest number for that car I'm guessing = $16,607 USD would be $21,730 CAD. That's not a difference of 1-2k...


I agree, totally on the buy back part - I was talking about the actual money in pocket at the end part... but I'm still guessing. 

I ran my 2014 Golf Wagon wolfsburg through the calculations, accounting for mileage (converting my mileage from Km to Miles), and what I owe on the car (converting my loan buyout from CAN to US) - and I'd walk away with $8000 US... or $10,500 Canadian...
However, if I take all the values in the documents and simply assume they are Canadian dollars, not US... I walk away with $1000 after paying off my loan.... So... my guess was WAY off... 

I would anticipate that our numbers should run out close to my original calculations once the Canadian market values and Canadian dollars are all converted by VW Canada...


----------



## LieutenantShinySides (May 4, 2007)

Mileage adjustments kinda suck. At the time the scandal was announced in September I had ~65,000 on my car but I have since moved and my commute is such that since September I have put an additional 50,000 miles on it. I really had no reasonable choice but to continue driving it while they worked on a settlement; perhaps they could have frozen mileages or went with the standard 12,000 miles per year calculation? Oh well, it's not a huge hit anyway.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

PnZrFsT said:


> Relevant links;
> 
> Vehicle buyback values;
> https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/cases/att._1a_-_buyback_modification_table.pdf
> ...


Looks like my total payout is $25,427 based on all the calculations (given an October trade in). I'm pleased.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

E CODE said:


> The effing better.... Or I'm going with a class action.
> 
> I was fine losing $300 on the bribe.... but not losing out on $1000-2000... we paid for the car in Canadian, paid a premium compared to the US as well - so they better use Canadian market values and dollars....


Is there some Canadian court or negotiator working with VW? You guys are going to be treated like Europe/UK.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

LieutenantShinySides said:


> Mileage adjustments kinda suck. At the time the scandal was announced in September I had ~65,000 on my car but I have since moved and my commute is such that since September I have put an additional 50,000 miles on it. I really had no reasonable choice but to continue driving it while they worked on a settlement; perhaps they could have frozen mileages or went with the standard 12,000 miles per year calculation? Oh well, it's not a huge hit anyway.


But, at least they are giving you 1000 miles a month off of your total driven since the scandal... so that's something...


----------



## Moncton.:R (Jun 20, 2012)

spockcat said:


> Is there some Canadian court or negotiator working with VW? You guys are going to be treated like Europe/UK.


VW Canada spokesperson already said they will be mirroring the US decision since we follow the same EPA bla bla bla.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

spockcat said:


> Is there some Canadian court or negotiator working with VW? You guys are going to be treated like Europe/UK.


VW Canada has said Canadian TDI owners will receive the same settlement as owners in the US. 

And Canadians didn't have to go to court either. Thanks America


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

spockcat said:


> Is there some Canadian court or negotiator working with VW? You guys are going to be treated like Europe/UK.


LOL, great gif.

Anyway, nope. Canadian cars are also EPA certified. Which has been confirmed by VW Canada. 

While this exact agreement doesn't apply (obviously, it's USA based), Canada will very likely do the exact same thing - just like they did with the $1000 bribe. 

In fact, the Canadian VW emissions website is telling Canadians to check out the vwcourtsettlement one for details (likely just for curiosity sake) 0 why would VW Canada direct all their owners to check out the new shiny buyout in the US, only to offer nothing... it would be a massive PR debacle... 

They just need time to come up with their own values (based on the Canadian market) - but I fully expect the agreement to be pretty much identical. The question is just to make sure that they use the correct Canadian dollar values as we pay a premium for being Canadian for some reason.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

E CODE said:


> But, at least they are giving you 1000 miles a month off of your total driven since the scandal... so that's something...


Right and it makes absolute sense.

Since you will basically have 2 years to decide which option you want why should they pay everyone based on the sept 15 value of the car at that assumed mileage it could have had then? 

They are giving people a credit of 12k miles a year give or take based on the 1050 miles per month. So if you kept the car another 20 months you'd get to reduce your actual miles buy ~20k. If you really put 40k miles on that in that time you used the car, you received value from it why should they pay you for that?


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

$22,157 with an October buyback after mileage deductions.

I paid right around $25 for the car. I have no problems with this.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

LieutenantShinySides said:


> Mileage adjustments kinda suck. At the time the scandal was announced in September I had ~65,000 on my car but I have since moved and my commute is such that since September I have put an additional 50,000 miles on it. I really had no reasonable choice but to continue driving it while they worked on a settlement; *perhaps they could have frozen mileages or went with the standard 12,000 miles per year calculation?* Oh well, it's not a huge hit anyway.


uh...isn't 1,000 miles/mo = 12,000 miles/yr????


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

LieutenantShinySides said:


> Mileage adjustments kinda suck. At the time the scandal was announced in September I had ~65,000 on my car but I have since moved and my commute is such that since September I have put an additional 50,000 miles on it. I really had no reasonable choice but to continue driving it while they worked on a settlement; perhaps they could have frozen mileages or went with the standard 12,000 miles per year calculation? Oh well, it's not a huge hit anyway.


haha what TDI driver would drive it 12k a year?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

E CODE said:


> LOL, great gif.
> 
> Anyway, nope. Canadian cars are also EPA certified. Which has been confirmed by VW Canada.
> 
> ...


I had assumed that Canada would get a similar settlement. But I just had to post that gif for pure entertainment value. Of course, you guys like being so much like Brits that you should get even less than Europe now that the UK is going back to island status.


----------



## Chapel (Jun 23, 1999)

*FV-QR*

Sorry if I missed the answer to this, what happens to those bought back?
Do they just crush them? That's way worse for the environment if they do.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

PnZrFsT said:


> Relevant links;
> 
> Vehicle buyback values;
> https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/cases/att._1a_-_buyback_modification_table.pdf
> ...


So which does the JSW fall into? It's a "Jetta" by name, but a Golf by build... :laugh:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

DUBPL8 said:


> haha what TDI driver would drive it 12k a year?


The person you are replying to appears to have been doing ~12K miles a year until the job change.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Chapel said:


> Sorry if I missed the answer to this, what happens to those bought back?
> Do they just crush them? That's way worse for the environment if they do.


99% sure it said they must destroy or fix and sell. They cannot be exported and they cannot be resold until they are compliant.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Maybe harvest parts for "warranty" work :laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

chris86vw said:


> The person you are replying to appears to have been doing ~12K miles a year until the job change.


Fair enough. Hell, I added 6,000 miles in 2014 since I was driving my Civic hatch more often, but I was always an anomaly if anything.

January 1st, I crossed the 36,000 mark on my car. Fast forward to today, and I now have ~63k on it and rising.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

DUBPL8 said:


> haha what TDI driver would drive it 12k a year?


My son. His 2010 has 54,000 miles today.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

The interesting thing I don't see here is about vehicle condition/wear & tear - guess that's good since my wife backed into something :facepalm::facepalm: and I popped the bumper back out


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> The interesting thing I don't see here is about vehicle condition/wear & tear - guess that's good since my wife backed into something :facepalm::facepalm: and I popped the bumper back out


Yeah the payout on my 2012 is more than reasonable so i'm not complaining but I had just done the 80k on it (only parts cost did it myself) spent 2 weekends detailing the snot out of it, new tires and had the rear bumper fixed from a garbage can cracking it in a wind storm. So not including my time there was almost a grand into it just a few weeks before this broke, I've put probably 600 miles on it since and won't see an extra penny for that stuff where I would have had I been able to sell it at the time. 

Oh well, I'll take the ~19k


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

PnZrFsT said:


> Relevant links;
> 
> Vehicle buyback values;
> https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/cases/att._1a_-_buyback_modification_table.pdf
> ...


Is there a link that says how to add these numbers up? I see something in the top of the Mileage Table?

I am assuming that you add up all of "Buyback" numbers for the Buyback Option. And all of the "Modification" numbers for the Modification Option?


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Banana's. Going to be some craziness to ensue shortly at my local vw dealer.


----------



## Aw614 (May 9, 2001)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> Maybe harvest parts for "warranty" work :laugh::laugh::laugh:


well at least there will be a ton of OEM fenders and body parts available for all those stancebros to ruin :laugh:


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> The interesting thing I don't see here is about vehicle condition/wear & tear - guess that's good since my wife backed into something :facepalm::facepalm: and I popped the bumper back out


I still have my damage around the license plate area in the rear bumper in addition to burned rear fenders thanks to my +35 BBS CH's lol


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

Chapel said:


> Sorry if I missed the answer to this, what happens to those bought back?
> Do they just crush them? That's way worse for the environment if they do.


They need to be disabled by removing their ECU. Their parts can be harvested though. However, no parts from the emissions system can be harvested.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

Aw614 said:


> well at least there will be a ton of OEM fenders and body parts available for all those stancebros to ruin :laugh:


haha I'll do a trade + $50 cash for my rolled fenders if someone wants to swap from another CW Mk6 :laugh:


----------



## Surf Green (Feb 16, 1999)

chris86vw said:


> new tires


Find someone with trashed tires, and swap wheels with them. You can probably recoup a couple hundred for that easily.


----------



## SoLo2pointO (Jul 12, 2001)

I feel like Rain Man over here working through all of these numbers trying to decide what to do!

Paid $17.5k for my car in August of 2014 with 71k miles. Have put 35k miles on the car from then until now, so based on the mileage adjustment table, VW would buy my car back for $16k. I guess I can't be mad at that!

I didn't read that if we choose to keep the car, do we get the cash payout up-front, or do we get paid at the time when the fix is proposed (could be May-June 2018)??


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

automobiliben said:


> Is there a link that says how to add these numbers up? I see something in the top of the Mileage Table?
> 
> I am assuming that you add up all of "Buyback" numbers for the Buyback Option. And all of the "Modification" numbers for the Modification Option?


Instructions are right at the top of the first PDF I linked to.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Surf Green said:


> Find someone with trashed tires, and swap wheels with them. You can probably recoup a couple hundred for that easily.


I didn't say good tires 

But yeah I was going to ask a buddy with a shop if they knew of anyone that would trade.


----------



## LieutenantShinySides (May 4, 2007)

.LSinLV. said:


> uh...isn't 1,000 miles/mo = 12,000 miles/yr????



I was referring to a basic calculation to assess mileage across the board for affected owners at the time the scandal was announced. And don't read too much into what I was saying, I am not upset by any of the offerings, I was just adding to the discussion from my point of view.


----------



## tsimitpo (Jul 22, 2014)

DUBPL8 said:


> haha what TDI driver would drive it 12k a year?


The JSW TDI I bought in July of 2014 has under 17k on it. My commute is only 8 miles each way and I was planning on taking some long vacations with it another year or two down the road. The compensation seems pretty inadequate to me since I was hoping for some very low cost miles in my future. Now I'm going to have to buy another car that almost certainly won't give me anywhere close to the same cost/mile.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

tsimitpo said:


> Now I'm going to have to buy another car that almost certainly won't give me anywhere close to the same cost/mile.


You must not have been a VW owner for very long if you thought anything with a VW logo on it was going to give you a low cost of ownership. :laugh:


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

TO my understanding there is now a 1 month "negotiating" period if im not mistaken? Those presented values could end up being adjusted?


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

LieutenantShinySides said:


> Mileage adjustments kinda suck. At the time the scandal was announced in September I had ~65,000 on my car but I have since moved and my commute is such that since September I have put an additional 50,000 miles on it. I really had no reasonable choice but to continue driving it while they worked on a settlement; perhaps they could have frozen mileages or went with the standard 12,000 miles per year calculation? Oh well, it's not a huge hit anyway.


Because the underlying purpose of all this is to promote cleaner air, there needs to be a disincentive against excessive driving and its associated enhanced pollution.

I sympathize with your point. You likely bought this car under the mistaken impression that it was the right ecological choice.

But you clearly drive an awful lot. I hope this disincentive is enough to get your car fixed or replaced quickly.


----------



## LieutenantShinySides (May 4, 2007)

I'm actually in a pretty good situation in that my car is paid off and I have other cars to drive. My wife and I now commute in her car so my wagon can sit while I bank 1,042 miles a month that I can subtract from my current mileage that will now remain the same. So to your point, I supposed I am disincentivized enough to let it sit, regardless of the actual reason.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

Looks like our '11 4DR buyback will be $20,027 considering options and mileage (currently at 68K). Seems about right considering 2 years ago I was getting trade numbers around $14.5k. By October 2016 we will have owned the car for 5.5 years. We bought the car for $25.5k (sticker was $27.8k), interest on loan was $1,600. Thus, I had a $107/mo 66 month lease. Not bad. :thumbup:


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I calculated $18,701 for my 12' JSW. That would be with the mileage I racked up on it ( I wanted this to make long trips in), as well as splitting the payout with the previous owner of my car ($2976 even if they just leased it). I probably owe $13k+ on it I believe.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

tsimitpo said:


> The JSW TDI I bought in July of 2014 has under 17k on it. My commute is only 8 miles each way and I was planning on taking some long vacations with it another year or two down the road. The compensation seems pretty inadequate to me since I was hoping for some very low cost miles in my future. Now I'm going to have to buy another car that almost certainly won't give me anywhere close to the same cost/mile.


The base for a 2014 JSW is 26k plus you'd get an additional 2500 for approximate milage.

28,500 is not adequate after using a car for 2 years? That is ignore if you will get extra for options or lose some for being a manual.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

PolishSasquatch said:


> TO my understanding there is now a 1 month "negotiating" period if im not mistaken? Those presented values could end up being adjusted?


Yes if people who are bitching that this is being delayed want to delay it further they can use this negotiate time to waste peoples time and then continue to blame VW for trying to avoid paying out..


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Increase the mileage to 15k a year? I've put 14k on it since November. I bought this to drive, these things were made for the highway. And to pollute apparently.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

thegoose said:


> $22,157 with an October buyback after mileage deductions.
> 
> I paid right around $25 for the car. I have no problems with this.


How many miles do you have on your car?


----------



## alex_bgnet (Jan 7, 2004)

DUBPL8 said:


> haha what TDI driver would drive it 12k a year?


My '13 has 14k on it.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

alex_bgnet said:


> My '13 has 14k on it.


You have other cars in the staple, to be fair though.


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

Darn I'm at 102k miles.... I better slow down on the driving. 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## sohccammer427 (Mar 24, 2009)

*Those who decide to keep*

For the half dozen or so who may decide to do the fix and keep the car do you think we can get parts for them in the future? Suppose a fuel pump, egr valve or a dpf is required down the road? And please don't say there will be all the buy back cars available for parts. Just something to consider as we all decide what we will do. 

I'm not so much worried about resale value because someone will always want a Tdi! I had a 2006 Jetta Tdi and when I sold it I had buyers actually offering me more than what I was asking after I told them someone was coming to look at it. I was amazed by the interest. Listed it on Craig's list on Friday, sold it that weekend.


----------



## trp3383 (Oct 19, 2015)

.yuk. said:


> I calculated $18,701 for my 12' JSW. That would be with the mileage I racked up on it ( I wanted this to make long trips in), as well as splitting the payout with the previous owner of my car ($2976 even if they just leased it). I probably owe $13k+ on it I believe.


I purchased my 2012 Passat SEL in October and I have 45k miles on it, since I'm after the September 18th scandal announcement. Am I correct in reading the court docs that I get the buyback price - 50% of the modification? If that's correct I should be at $23,267 - $3183 + $2k in mileage difference come October since it will sit until then = $22k? That seem right?


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

trp3383 said:


> I purchased my 12 Passat SEL in October, since I'm after the September 18th scandal announcement. Am I correct in reading the court docs that I get the buyback price - 50% of the modification? If that's correct I should be at $23,267 - $3183 + 2k in mileage difference = 22k? That seem right?


if you chose to buy back you get the price- mileage adjustment. 
if you chose to hold car and get modfication, you get mod value - mileage.


----------



## trp3383 (Oct 19, 2015)

PolishSasquatch said:


> if you chose to buy back you get the price- mileage adjustment.
> if you chose to hold car and get modfication, you get mod value - mileage.


Even though I bought it after the scandal?


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

^you split the restitution money with the previous owner. But you can still sell your car back to VW. just that 5-10k cash offer is split.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> At the time of that being published I don't believe anyone knew exactly how to get the car in and out of test mode, heck it was still being debated and was unconfirmed months later right in this thread. They do not quote what they actually saw for a reduction or how they tested it. That doesn't doesn't mean a thing. The article is no better than the ones from a week ago stating they had all the answers about the settlement, its speculation. If they had legit numbers it would have included them. But they thank you for your help in generating ad revenue by bringing traffic back to an article that says nothing.


It's been months since I watched CR's video, but I believe answers to your questions should be in the vid. Google can also link you to several news sites that reported on CR's test (e.g. Autoblog). CR pulled the rear ABS sensors from the hub to trick the car into believing it was on a 2wd dyno.




chris86vw said:


> It does actually, since the DEF solution to soot is post combustion and post DPF, things like EGR increase soot, DEF as far as I'm aware does not. Since EGR funciton can be reduced, DPF filling is reduce and overall soot is REDUCED. Also engine tuning can be done in a manner that also reduces soot producition when it is not replying on EGR for the bulk of the NOx reduction.
> 
> 
> Yes if you fixate on tuning changes required to deal with systems that rely heaving on EGR, which is not what I said I only spoke of increase DEF injection and you started going on about the problems related with EGR type NOx reduction. When you retune for systems that rely heavily on SCR then soot is REDUCED.


I'm making a broad statement that reducing NOx increases soot and there are practical limitations to how much soot can be absorbed by the DPF. Meeting emissions is a combination of your engine tuning and the equipment installed on your vehicle. Installing a DPF, DEF, an SCR doesn't break the compromises completely and make all your emissions disappear -- it _reduces _the compromises. You have to consider things like the durability of the components, is the DEF tank even large enough to get the customer between oil changes, etc. So you still need engine tuning when trying to meet emissions. If you simply try to dose your way out of high NOx emissions, you'll build up deposits in the exhaust.




chris86vw said:


> No I don't because they were dealing with this lawsuit first. Having a fix for those would also mean thousands of people who owned identical vehicles would be banging down the doors at dealers demanding a fix.


Then why is VW even in this position to begin with? If the equipment on the EA288 cars is sufficient to meet Tier 2, Bin 5 emissions without impacting certified fuel economy, advertised performance, or required component durability (req'd both by regulation and practical cost-of-ownership limitations), then why didn't VW calibrate the 2015+ EA288 engine to pass emissions in the first place? WVU and the ICCT were already on the case by the time the EA288 went on sale in the US.

Moreover, a lawsuit hadn't even been filed when the EPA and CARB approached VW.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

sohccammer427 said:


> For the half dozen or so who may decide to do the fix and keep the car do you think we can get parts for them in the future? Suppose a fuel pump, egr valve or a dpf is required down the road? And please don't say there will be all the buy back cars available for parts. Just something to consider as we all decide what we will do.


According to the new released so far:

"*Volkswagen will be closely monitored even if it is able to fix the vehicles.

For the next five years, the settlement requires the company to notify the Environmental Protection Agency and the California Air Resources Board every time it tests one of the modified vehicles. The agencies will send representatives to observe those tests. If a vehicle fails a test, the company must notify the agencies within 72 hours and face possible penalties.*

Volkswagen is also required to submit annual reports on its testing through 2023.

If Volkswagen is found to be selling any unrepaired vehicles, or returning unrepaired vehicles to owners, it must pay a penalty of $50,000 per vehicle."

Wording like that tells me that they will be required by the EPA to maintain a sufficient stock of repair parts for a minimum of 5 years. IMO, you're best off to just turn the car in and let VW crush it. With no guarantee of repair parts available after 5 years and probably a very small fleet of junked cars to take used parts from, I wouldn't count on the service life of any TDI being certain beyond the year 2023.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

chris86vw said:


> The base for a 2014 JSW is 26k plus you'd get an additional 2500 for approximate milage.
> 
> 28,500 is not adequate after using a car for 2 years? That is ignore if you will get extra for options or lose some for being a manual.



Its adequate but the problem is you can't get in a car of like kind and quality - my buyback calculates to about $28k and I would happily turn it in to a 2016 TDI GSW SEL but they won't sell me one. My wife doesn't want a Tiptronic wagon, and VW offers nothing else that ticks all the boxes for us (mileage, decent power out of the stock, OEM nav, and space of the wagon) - so we'll most likely be keeping and based on it we'll get about $7k and just drive it - I'll roll my dice on the EPA holding their nuts tight and VW in my opinion will never get a fix approved by CARB because they know that all the people will not like decreased power and mileage and accelerated wear of parts, etc.

If the EPA reopened the freeze hold on the TDI's and allowed them to be sold again this would be a different story for us and I'd be pretty happy for the buyback. 16 months of free driving pretty much.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Guess this time-frame (Oct 2016) is going to cut it close on tires for the JSW... :banghead:
I need to avoid spending that but might not be able to.


----------



## trp3383 (Oct 19, 2015)

PolishSasquatch said:


> ^you split the restitution money with the previous owner. But you can still sell your car back to VW. just that 5-10k cash offer is split.


^ Thanks ^ That's what I assumed in my numbers. I'm happy with the settlement, Paid $14k so $22k ain't bad.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I guess it is "free driving" except you slowly lose money if you drive over 1k miles a month. In a way. Sorta kinda.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

trp3383 said:


> ^ Thanks ^ That's what I assumed in my numbers. I'm happy with the settlement, Paid $14k so $22k ain't bad.


Jesus. If anyone is making out here, you are. I paid $14k for my JSW, that's insane.


----------



## LTrainGLI (Sep 28, 2014)

Wow based on those PDF's my mom would get $28,037 to get out of her 2014 Jetta TDI SEL. She has about 19,200 miles on it right now and I think they owe somewhere around $11k on it. Seems like a pretty decent deal.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I'm curious as to why such a large jump from the 12' to 13' JSW. It's like $4k. It's only like a $1k bump from the 11' to the 12'.


----------



## tsimitpo (Jul 22, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> You must not have been a VW owner for very long if you thought anything with a VW logo on it was going to give you a low cost of ownership. :laugh:


Guilty as charged. I've owned 2 Nissans, 2 Hondas, 2 Toyotas, a Jeep, a Chevrolet (8100K Burb) and an Audi (Q5), but this was my first VW.

I let an infatuation with 700 miles per tank obscure my vision, LOL.

Now you've got me re-evaluating that pending decision to replace the JSW TDI with a CPO Audi allroad. I think the cost of ownership ship may have sailed...


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

LTrainGLI said:


> Wow based on those PDF's my mom would get $28,037 to get out of her 2014 Jetta TDI SEL. She has about 19,200 miles on it right now and I think they owe somewhere around $11k on it. Seems like a pretty decent deal.


Yeah, looking over the PDF, there are going to be some absolutely monstrous wins for some customers... and hopefully no one comes out underwater (given the verbiage on the private loan/VW finance dissolution, and the minimum $5100) but maybe some very high mileage ones might be...


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

What happens if you are the 4th owner of a 2013 TDI and you bought it in August of last year. Does it get split 4 ways? Who the hell is in charge of keeping track? :laugh:

I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS.


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

question is: Keep driving my '12 with 71K and risk some knucklehead totaling the car and being upside down with insurance or park it in my garage and let the mileage average go down for a higher cash payout...


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

.yuk. said:


> What happens if you are the 4th owner of a 2013 TDI and you bought it in August of last year. Does it get split 4 ways? Who the hell is in charge of keeping track? :laugh:
> 
> I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS.


doesnt matter if it had 100 owners before that. Only matters if there was ownership change AFTER sept 15 2015.


----------



## sohccammer427 (Mar 24, 2009)

PolishSasquatch said:


> ^you split the restitution money with the previous owner. But you can still sell your car back to VW. just that 5-10k cash offer is split.



??? split with multiple previous owners? Really? I was under the impression the values in the published chart were for current owners. So are you saying that if you go for the buy back or do the fix and get the modification money, either of those amounts would be split with previous owners? I don't think so. But I'm not sure how previous owners will be compensated.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

caman man, its laid out clear in the document. only the restitution money which is minimum 5100 is split between previous owners. a previous owner qualifies only if they have sold the car AFTER sept 15-15. If the car traded hands two times since sept 15-15, the restitution money gets split 3 ways, but YOU keep the buyback money. 



sohccammer427 said:


> ??? split with multiple previous owners? Really? I was under the impression the values in the published chart were for current owners. So are you saying that if you go for the buy back or do the fix and get the modification money, either of those amounts would be split with previous owners? I don't think so. But I'm not sure how previous owners will be compensated.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Anyone else notice that leftover TDI's are showing up for sale on Dealer lots, and '15s are listing for MSRP or higher? I did a specific search for a 15-16 Pure White GSW TDI and found about 73 matches nationwide, sure they were all 3 trim levels but they are listed again.

I'd only consider the buyback if I can get a vehicle of like kind and quality and be no worse off than when I started - and would expect if staying with VW they would be giving an optimal discount if you were to buy say a 2 model year old GSW as the 17's will be rolling in by the time the buybacks start happening.

And then it opens a can of worms if you get bought back TDI for new TDI do you get any compensation to keep that vehicle and have it fixed at a possible later date? LOL:laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

PolishSasquatch said:


> doesnt matter if it had 100 owners before that. Only matters if there was ownership change AFTER sept 15 2015.


So who is entitled to the money if it was bought and sold 3 times in 2014-2015? The last owner? Why not the first or second?

I bought mine 11/7/2015. What if the lessee gave the car back on 9/1/2015, are they now entitled to half? They may not have lost any value in this car? 

I still have questions.


----------



## Snowdog (Apr 27, 2001)

well crud. We traded ours for a 15 GolfSportwagen exactly on 18 sept, 2015. It says if you sold it after that. Missed by one day.


----------



## trp3383 (Oct 19, 2015)

.yuk. said:


> Jesus. If anyone is making out here, you are. I paid $14k for my JSW, that's insane.


Yea it was a gamble buying it right after the scandal, that's why I got it so cheap.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

2014 dont matter. 9-1-15 dont matter. he traded it in pre scandal. he gets nothing. you bought yours after scandal. if only the dealer was the owner between 9-1-15 and 11-5-15, then you dont split the restitution money with anyone. As dealers i suume wont be compensated from your winnings, (maybe in another form, but you dont split with them)



.yuk. said:


> So who is entitled to the money if it was bought and sold 3 times in 2014-2015? The last owner? Why not the first or second?
> 
> I bought mine 11/7/2015. What if the lessee gave the car back on 9/1/2015, are they now entitled to half? They may not have lost any value in this car?
> 
> I still have questions.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

PolishSasquatch said:


> 2014 dont matter. 9-1-15 dont matter. he traded it in pre scandal. he gets nothing. you bought yours after scandal. if only the dealer was the owner between 9-1-15 and 11-5-15, then you dont split the restitution money with anyone. As dealers i suume wont be compensated from your winnings, (maybe in another form, but you dont split with them)


So I basically need to hope that my car was traded in prior to 9/18/15 it seems.


----------



## sohccammer427 (Mar 24, 2009)

PolishSasquatch said:


> caman man, its laid out clear in the document. only the restitution money which is minimum 5100 is split between previous owners. a previous owner qualifies only if they have sold the car AFTER sept 15-15. If the car traded hands two times since sept 15-15, the restitution money gets split 3 ways, but YOU keep the buyback money.


ok and thanks PolishSasquatch. I think I understand now. The current owner will get the September 2015 Clean Trade Vehicle Value and the restitution money anywhere from 5,100 to 10,000 will be split with previous owners. My purchase date was around 3/22/16 and there was one prior owner.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

^yessir, i believe that to be correct.(yuk)

yes you will split restitution money 50/50 with the 1 previous owner.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Mine was traded back in from lease on 10/17/15. Ugh, that blows.


----------



## tsimitpo (Jul 22, 2014)

Then there's the legal documentation that gets into loan payoff, loan forgiveness, and a bunch of other stuff that makes this much more complicated than the summary documents.


Main Document
FTC's [Proposed] Partial Stipulated Order for Permanent Injunction and Monetary Judgment (Main Document) (.pdf, 636 KB)
http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/filelibrary/1781/FTC-Proposed-Stip-Order.pdf

Plaintiffs' Steering Committee's Consumer Class Action Settlement Agreement and Release (Doc. No. 1606) (.pdf, 768 KB)
http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/filelibrary/1782/Consumer_Settlement_Agreement.pdf

Plaintiffs' Steering Committee's Motion for Preliminary Approval of Settlement (Doc. No. 1609) (.pdf, 997 KB)
http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/filelibrary/1783/PSC_Motion_for_Preliminary_Approval.pdf


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

E CODE said:


> Yeah, looking over the PDF, there are going to be some absolutely monstrous wins for some customers... and hopefully no one comes out underwater (given the verbiage on the private loan/VW finance dissolution, and the minimum $5100) but maybe some very high mileage ones might be...


I feel like I am in a pretty good position. Car has been paid off for 2 months and our payout will be $20,368 for a car i paid $25,500 for in 4/2011.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

tsimitpo said:


> Then there's the legal documentation that gets into loan payoff, loan forgiveness, and a bunch of other stuff that makes this much more complicated than the summary documents.
> 
> 
> Main Document
> ...


So glad I'm prescribed on 40mg of Vyvanse to go through all of that :laugh:


----------



## Buran (Apr 21, 2000)

.yuk. said:


> Mine was traded back in from lease on 10/17/15. Ugh, that blows.


We sold ours on September 18th. I'm trying to find actual settlement text that tells me what to expect. At least it looks like we'll get something but I don't know how much. Signed up for updates on the settlement website... and a-ha, there it is in the thread.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

You'll get half, and the next owner will bet bitter. 

Owned "On" the 18th!


----------



## Buran (Apr 21, 2000)

It was traded in, so a local dealer has it now. We had purchased it with cash back in 2012 so there was no loan on it. I'm digging through this mess trying to find the part about where we'll get half the amount we'd have gotten if the date had been a little different.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Say what you will about this whole debacle... 

The information available today is pretty darned comprehensive. Sure, there's some grey area and concern.... but overall, kudos to VW for being this prepared...


----------



## gw204 (Apr 18, 2005)

I will be curious to see how trade-ins are handled after the buybacks commence. Here in MD, we only pay sales tax on the difference between trade-in value and new car price. If my wife chooses to get out of her '15 TDI (only because it's been hit twice already...she loves the car itself) and stick with VW, she will have to choose between the following scenarios:

1. Go through with the buyback, pocket about $6K (what I estimated based on her car and mileage), then buy another car and pay full sales tax.
2. Elect to keep the car, pocket about $6500 and then trade. If going this route, I wonder how trade-in value would be determined? Sept 2015 pre-scandal value, or actual NADA value at the time of trade? This wouldn't impact the amount of sales tax greatly, but it would have a substantial impact on the amount of equity we have in the car.
3. Some other route that is yet to be identified.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

BUJonathan said:


> CR pulled the rear ABS sensors from the hub to trick the car into believing it was on a 2wd dyno.


So they didn't confirm it was in test mode, got it. 




> I'm making a broad statement that reducing NOx increases soot and there are practical limitations to how much soot can be absorbed by the DPF.


Why are you making broad statemetns in response to my VERY specific one, that makes absolutely no sense and ignores the ENTIRE reason why everyone has moved to SCR systems. 

It also ignores that those types of systems, which I've pointed out a few times, mean that they don't have to depend on EGR and injection timing type NOx reduction which further reduces soot, not increases it.








> Then why is VW even in this position to begin with?


For the same reason that they 

They weren't caught on the 2015+ vehicles from anything I have seen they admitted to it on their own accord. It got sucked into the whole mess whether they wanted to just apply a software fix or even if they knew of a simple hardware fix they could not just say here it is. EPA and CARB lumped it all together. Notice every rejection was a single one not each individual vehicle type. 


I'm not sure why I am bothering to reply to your attempted distraction at your lack of understanding of how SCR doesn't increase soot pre dpf...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> With no guarantee of repair parts available after 5 years and probably a very small fleet of junked cars to take used parts from, I wouldn't count on the service life of any TDI being certain beyond the year 2023.


How is it any different then buying any other model of car and hoping they keep parts around? 

Warranty is also extended to 10/120k miles on the early cars and passats, and 10/150k on the later cars. So really ~9 years would be the minimum they would need to have parts around since it hasn't even been a year since the last cars were sold for those later cars. Similar for the passats, and about 8 years for the other ones.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Ricky Bobby said:


> If the EPA reopened the freeze hold on the TDI's and allowed them to be sold again this would be a different story for us and I'd be pretty happy for the buyback. 16 months of free driving pretty much.


The 2017 order guide says TDIs pending...

So there is a chance, especially if they are still believing some cars will be fixed it seems likely the new ones would be first, if the fix is approved then the cars waiting to be sold would be too.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> Guess this time-frame (Oct 2016) is going to cut it close on tires for the JSW... :banghead:
> I need to avoid spending that but might not be able to.


Just grab some nankangs off discount tire will be like 250 shipped


----------



## Buran (Apr 21, 2000)

E CODE said:


> Say what you will about this whole debacle...
> 
> The information available today is pretty darned comprehensive. Sure, there's some grey area and concern.... but overall, kudos to VW for being this prepared...


I'm starting to wonder if I'm in a black hole because I sold on the 18th exactly.



> “Eligible Seller” means a person who purchased or otherwise acquired an Eligible Vehicle on or before September 18, 2015, and sold or otherwise transferred ownership of such vehicle after September 18, 2015, but before June 28, 2016. For avoidance of doubt, Eligible Seller includes any owner (1) who acquired his, her, or its Eligible Vehicle on or before September 18, 2015, (2) whose Eligible Vehicle was totaled, and (3) who consequently transferred title of his, her, or its vehicle to an insurance company after September 18, 2015, but before June 28, 2016.


We aren't "eligible sellers" because it says "after September 18th" but then there's



> Certain former owners who sold or transferred ownership of their Eligible Vehicles after September 18, 2015, but before June 28, 2016 (i.e., Eligible Sellers), will be entitled, if they do not opt out of the Class, to a portion of the Owner Restitution for their Eligible Vehicles.


Are we screwed, despite having been deceived and unknowingly basically had a semi driven thousands of miles per year when we were doing the right thing? (The car was driven by a field service tech). Is there a black hole consisting of a single day that we fell into?


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> So they didn't confirm it was in test mode, got it.


You're asking for things that are not practical. Engine software source code is protected by law. CR has no way of validating (by code) if they activated cheat mode. Instead they ran an A-B test and confirmed measurable fuel economy differences in the 2011 and 2015 car and performance degradation in the 2011 car. That's actual data, and more than anyone else has presented.




chris86vw said:


> Why are you making broad statemetns in response to my VERY specific one, that makes absolutely no sense and ignores the ENTIRE reason why everyone has moved to SCR systems.
> 
> It also ignores that those types of systems, which I've pointed out a few times, mean that they don't have to depend on EGR and injection timing type NOx reduction which further reduces soot, not increases it.


Your very specific statements ignore the broad impacts. Since you want a specific statement, I'll provide one: You can't simply dose your way out of high NOx with urea or you'll plug up the exhaust system with build-up.




chris86vw said:


> For the same reason that they They weren't caught on the 2015+ vehicles from anything I have seen they admitted to it on their own accord. It got sucked into the whole mess whether they wanted to just apply a software fix or even if they knew of a simple hardware fix they could not just say here it is. EPA and CARB lumped it all together. Notice every rejection was a single one not each individual vehicle type.


Regardless, the EPA and CARB approached VW about cheating as early as May 2014. If the equipment on the EA288 cars is capable of meeting Tier 2, Bin 5 emissions without compromise to today's fuel economy, performance, or component durability, why didn't VW bring the car to market in the first place with legal emissions?




chris86vw said:


> I'm not sure why I am bothering to reply to your attempted distraction at your lack of understanding of how SCR doesn't increase soot pre dpf...


I never said an SCR system increased soot to the DPF -- that doesn't even make sense. I said compromises in engine calibration force trade-offs between soot and NOx, and there are limits to the capabilities of the DPF and catalyst systems.


----------



## trp3383 (Oct 19, 2015)

It states “Eligible Owner” means the registered owner or owners of an Eligible Vehicle
on June 28, 2016, or the registered owner or owners who acquire an Eligible Vehicle after
June 28, 2016, but before the deadline to submit a claim under the Settlement Program.

Does that mean you can go out right now and buy used tdi's and cash in on the "buyback"?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

E CODE said:


> Yeah, looking over the PDF, there are going to be some absolutely monstrous wins for some customers... and hopefully no one comes out underwater (given the verbiage on the private loan/VW finance dissolution, and the minimum $5100) but maybe some very high mileage ones might be...


They are paying up to 30% for lost value to those people and I don't think that any of that comes out of the customers pocket right? if they still are under water after getting another 5100 on top of that then it sounds like they bought the car at a 0% down buy here pay here place paying 20% interest and then on top of that managed to get a title loan against it..

Basically I can't picture a single financial situation where someone would be THAT underwater.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

chris86vw said:


> The 2017 order guide says TDIs pending...
> 
> So there is a chance, especially if they are still believing some cars will be fixed it seems likely the new ones would be first, if the fix is approved then the cars waiting to be sold would be too.


I guess there is hope then, as I think the urea-equipped cars might be much easier to fix than the non-urea - I'm guessing then the only option would be to find a 2015 leftover, or to order a new 2017? I might be willing to do that, start fresh - with the buyback and ordering a new one even at MSRP we'd probably have about $10 more a month to our payment than now - and tell them to let my wife keep her MK7 Austin's LOL

I think they stopped production on 2016's since the scandal broke right around the time they would be arriving to dealerships, so if anything the 2016's could be a super rare find, although they will have been sitting. Might be one of those weird Gen 1/2 Touareg things where the TDI only showed up once every few years.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

trp3383 said:


> Does that mean you can go out right now and buy used tdi's and cash in on the "buyback"?


Sure kinda sounds like it - although if you had one to trade in it wouldn't work since they won't take it or give you a extremely reduced value for it.


----------



## trp3383 (Oct 19, 2015)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Sure kinda sounds like it - although if you had one to trade in it wouldn't work since they won't take it or give you a extremely reduced value for it.


If they don't cap you at 1 buyback, this could be a good time to go find good deals on used tdi's.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

BUJonathan said:


> I never said an SCR system increased soot to the DPF -- that doesn't even make sense.





BUJonathan said:


> It's not that simple. As you decrease NOx emissions, soot emissions increase. So, *if VW were to simply just increase the dosing rate of the DEF,* increase the EGR, or retard the timing to fix the NOx problem, *then you would fill up the DPF too quickly*. Increased EGR also hurts fuel economy and power.


You actually did in your very first reply in this line of discussion...


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> You actually did in your very first reply in this line of discussion...


Excellent, you win. :thumbup:


----------



## Dubveiser (Aug 4, 2005)

What is VW going to do with all the returned TDI's?

Are they going to fix/resell them, or destroy the cars?

If they resell wouldn't that mean the market will be flooded with discounted TDI's, further decreasing the resale for owners who keep their TDI's? Will the compensation package even makeup for lost resale in this case?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Sure kinda sounds like it - although if you had one to trade in it wouldn't work since they won't take it or give you a extremely reduced value for it.


They may give you more than they would have given you yesterday actually which I sort of think is their point of allowing anyone who has the car going forward to cash in.

If you aren't in a position to wait and needed to trade your car in that dealer can now know they would either get a buyout on it from VW, or wholesaling it off they may do better for the same reason.

It should help stabilize the market since it alleviates the fear which is what really reduced the price.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Dubveiser said:


> What is VW going to do with all the returned TDI's?
> 
> Are they going to fix/resell them, or destroy the cars?
> 
> If they resell wouldn't that mean the market will be flooded with discounted TDI's, further decreasing the resale for owners who keep their TDI's? Will the compensation package even makeup for lost resale in this case?


It was discussed earlier - VW cannot resell in the US any of the bought back or frozen models (as new or CPO), or export any of the TDI's until there is a EPA/CARB regulatory approved "fix" for all generations (3) of the 2.0 TDI - so either they will sit and VW will figure out how much they want to invest in retarding performance (as I don't think CARB will accept anything less than full compliance, no middle ground here) and possibly angering the remaining owners who kept their cars, more, or they will get crushed, IMO.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

BUJonathan said:


> Excellent, you win. :thumbup:


Has nothing to do with winning.I specifically mentioned SCR/DEF and you went on and on about how EGR (and SCR) increases soot to the DPF and ignored the fact that increasing DEF reduces the need to rely on EGR so it actually reduces DPF loading. You also countered my comment regarding there should be no reduction in performance or economy with reasons again only related to EGR problems that decrease performance and increase fuel consumption, not issues related to SCR.


----------



## Dubveiser (Aug 4, 2005)

Ricky Bobby said:


> It was discussed earlier - VW cannot resell in the US any of the bought back or frozen models (as new or CPO), or export any of the TDI's until there is a EPA/CARB regulatory approved "fix" for all generations (3) of the 2.0 TDI - so either they will sit and VW will figure out how much they want to invest in retarding performance (as I don't think CARB will accept anything less than full compliance, no middle ground here) and possibly angering the remaining owners who kept their cars, more, or they will get crushed, IMO.


Fully aware of this. But with today's announcement, VW must be pretty confident that their ''fix'' will be approved by the time the compensation plan is rolled out. I guess whether they fix and sell the returned cars or crush them will depend on how costly the modifications will be. 

Personally if I had an affected TDI I would be taking the cash and jumping off ship ASAP.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

trp3383 said:


> If they don't cap you at 1 buyback, this could be a good time to go find good deals on used tdi's.


While they refer to registered owner this really is a vin by vin case meaning that each individual vehicle is afford the same "rights" from the settlement not specifically an owner. The owner part is really only a factor in determining who if the vehicle was owned by different people at different points would be entitled to compensation.

I read the ~50 page order and it didn't say a single thing about limits to the number of claims an individual would be entitled to. I don't think they legally could, that would be similar to saying someone can only get recalls on 2 of their 3 cars with defective airbags fixed.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Dubveiser said:


> Fully aware of this. But with today's announcement, VW must be pretty confident that their ''fix'' will be approved by the time the compensation plan is rolled out. I guess whether they fix and sell the returned cars or crush them will depend on how costly the modifications will be.



The fix does not have to be approved by the time the compensation rolls out. Nor does anyone need to make a decision right when the compensation comes out. Heck there were provisions in there if you take the cash and fix options you could change your mind later and take the buyback if certain conditions were not met.





> Personally if I had an affected TDI I would be taking the cash and jumping off ship ASAP.


I have two one I will absolutely take the buy back, the other I will 99% take the cash and wait for fix option.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> Has nothing to do with winning.I specifically mentioned SCR/DEF and you went on and on about how EGR (and SCR) increases soot to the DPF and ignored the fact that increasing DEF reduces the need to rely on EGR so it actually reduces DPF loading. You also countered my comment regarding there should be no reduction in performance or economy with reasons again only related to EGR problems that decrease performance and increase fuel consumption, not issues related to SCR.


Except there are limitations to how much DEF dosing you can use to reduce NOx... unless you want to plug up the exhaust with scale (and run the DEF tank dry before the OCI). But we can neglect those details if it makes you feel better. :thumbup:


----------



## tsimitpo (Jul 22, 2014)

Buran said:


> I'm starting to wonder if I'm in a black hole because I sold on the 18th exactly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is just speculation on my part, but you may be considered to have made your transaction BEFORE news broke of the indiscretions and thus suffered no devaluation of your trade-in.


----------



## Buran (Apr 21, 2000)

tsimitpo said:


> This is just speculation on my part, but you may be considered to have made your transaction BEFORE news broke of the indiscretions and thus suffered no devaluation of your trade-in.


It's confusing. I wish someone with legal experience could help out here. I guess all we can do is file when that can actually be done and just go from there. Surely there will be reviews at submission time that can sort it out.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

BUJonathan said:


> Except there are limitations to how much DEF dosing you can use to reduce NOx... unless you want to plug up the exhaust with scale (and run the DEF tank dry before the OCI). But we can neglect those details if it makes you feel better. :thumbup:


Who is neglecting it?

Just because you didn't realize that DEF was injected post DPF and allowed for reducing use of EGR which reduces soot and therefore does not increase the load on the DPF, does not mean anyone is talking about just firehosing urea into the exhaust.



It has been discussed right in this thread that VW seems to have been dosing at lower rates than other manufactures and that a reason for this may have been to prevent talks of frequent adblue fill up intervals which would push people away from buying diesels. Your attempt to link it to an OCI only confirms that this is an exception that people have when it isn't something that should be linked in anyway. 

If the current rate is for example half of what a cruze is (just picking something kind of close) then they are clearly able to do it without plugging up the exhaust while still having very similar fuel economy and power output. But yeah you know lets ignore that now too because it makes more sense to assume that increasing the def dosage can only mean crank it up until it pours out the tailpipe in liquid form and not to a level that it would actually be compliant.. :screwy:


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

chris86vw said:


> Heck there were provisions in there if you take the cash and fix options you could change your mind later and take the buyback if certain conditions were not met.



^^If this is true this puts me a bit more at ease - Would be nice to be able to change your mind because its hard for me to commit for something I don't know the ramifications of currently - and VW is making nothing non-diesel that checks the same boxes as the wagon.

Ideally they would release details about a fix/rollout plan for the frozen vehicles by the time the buyback offers are rolled out, so I'd have no problem reviewing and if we decided its best then I would have a later gen GSW TDI ordered - or just jump ship and go elsewhere -


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> Who is neglecting it?
> 
> Just because you didn't realize that DEF was injected post DPF and allowed for reducing use of EGR which reduces soot and therefore does not increase the load on the DPF, does not mean anyone is talking about just firehosing urea into the exhaust.
> 
> ...


Your argument is the DPF takes care of the soot, and the SCR takes care of the NOx, breaking the compromise. That's true (within practical limitations). My argument is there are practical limitations, particularly if either of those components is undersized (thereby meaning you cannot meet your durability and/or emissions requirements which are regulations), or you can't meet your fuel economy target (which is now advertised and therefore must be met), or your performance (which is also now advertised and therefore must be met).

The difference between the VW TDIs and the Cruze, is the Cruze was apparently designed to meet the regulation without needing a cheat. Just because they both use SCR and DEF doesn't mean both can meet the regulations, or both do it with the same efficiency or power output, or have emissions components of the same capacity.

When VW releases a "fix" for the EA288 cars, something will have to "give". One or more of the following will happen: Fuel economy will go decrease, power will decrease, DEF usage will increase, or the DPF or SCR will need to increase in size.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

BUJonathan said:


> Your argument is the DPF takes care of the soot, and the SCR takes care of the NOx, breaking the compromise. That's true (within practical limitations). My argument is there are practical limitations, particularly if either of those components is undersized (thereby meaning you cannot meet your durability and/or emissions requirements which are regulations), or you can't meet your fuel economy target (which is now advertised and therefore must be met), or your performance (which is also now advertised and therefore must be met).
> 
> The difference between the VW TDIs and the Cruze, is the Cruze was apparently designed to meet the regulation without needing a cheat. Just because they both use SCR and DEF doesn't mean both can meet the regulations, or both do it with the same efficiency or power output, or have emissions components of the same capacity.
> 
> When VW releases a "fix" for the EA288 cars, something will have to "give". My guess is that one or more of the following will happen: Fuel economy will go decrease, power will decrease, DEF usage will increase, or the DPF or SCR will need to increase in size.



To be clear you are stating that if the only thing that VW has to do is increase DEF injection, then along with that power and economy must also go down? 

That simply is not entirely true at all.

If you are saying that one instance is that DEF usage will go up and that power and fuel consumption stay the same then that is what I said from the beginning and you repeatedly claimed I was wrong about... because soot would have to go up which is also incorrect. 

It is possible that an increase in DEF injection brings some versions into compliance. It is entirely possible that was the fix the entire time but to manage expectations of DEF consumption being inline with OCI, as you even noted, that they decided to cheat. That cheating is so minor compared to the other vehicles that really would you really think they'd be like no omg we can't cheat now??? of course not they'd easily do some petty cheat like that. 


You are making an assumption that the SCR hardware is undersized in exactly the same way that I am making the assumption that they can increase urea injection and possibly meet the emissions requirements. Even if increasing the size of the SCR equipment is require that does NOT mean that power or fuel economy will automatically be reduced. Since increasing that injection may mean less EGR function they theoretically could be improved.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> To be clear you are stating that if the only thing that VW has to do is increase DEF injection, then along with that power and economy must also go down?


No, I'm saying that _most likely_, DEF dosing _alone _will not fix the emissions violation. Perhaps I'm wrong, but we'll find out for sure when VW releases the details of the "technical fix" for the EA288 cars.




chris86vw said:


> You are making an assumption that the SCR hardware is undersized in exactly the same way that I am making the assumption that they can increase urea injection and possibly meet the emissions requirements.


The reason I don't think it's just an issue with the urea dosing rate is because like you said, it's such an easy solution, why would VW even risk all the EPA and legal nonesense on the EA288 cars by ignoring that solution and continuing to use their defeat software?




chris86vw said:


> Even if increasing the size of the SCR equipment is require that does NOT mean that power or fuel economy will automatically be reduced. Since increasing that injection may mean less EGR function they theoretically could be improved.


I don't disagree with that, I hope I made that clear in the last post. Keep in mind, there are practical limitations on the SCR equipment as well (e.g. size and cost).


----------



## biggus dickus (Jun 28, 2016)

According to those numbers in the FTC link I will be getting back more than I actually paid for my car, that's 18+ months likely of driving a car and then getting a refund.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

BUJonathan said:


> I don't disagree with that, I hope I made that clear in the last post.



So you agree with and decided to clarify for yourself what I said from the start... great...


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

Ricky Bobby said:


> It was discussed earlier - VW cannot resell in the US any of the bought back or frozen models (as new or CPO), or export any of the TDI's until there is a EPA/CARB regulatory approved "fix" for all generations (3) of the 2.0 TDI - so either they will sit and VW will figure out how much they want to invest in retarding performance (as I don't think CARB will accept anything less than full compliance, no middle ground here) and possibly angering the remaining owners who kept their cars, more, or they will get crushed, IMO.


Why would the cars being exported out of the US need to meet emissions requirements for this country? That makes no sense... can you site that? I'd love to learn more.

Also, what's the environmental impact of crushing hundreds of thousands of perfectly viable cars?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

caj1 said:


> Why would the cars being exported out of the US need to meet emissions requirements for this country? That makes no sense... can you site that? I'd love to learn more.


They don't necessarily need to meet requirements for the US in other Countries. It's part of them saying you screwed up and you will pay for this, you can't just collect your toys and go to another sandbox. Since they were fraudulently imported they can put limits on what to do with them. 

And for a source:

"Volkswagen may resell or export vehicles that are bought back or for which the lease is terminated only after performing an EPA and CARB approved emission modification. If there is no approved emissions modification, the vehicles will be recycled or scrapped. "

https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/volkswagen-clean-air-act-partial-settlement


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

caj1 said:


> Also, what's the environmental impact of crushing hundreds of thousands of perfectly viable cars?


We've had this discussion already, but it was probably 50+ pages ago.

1) They are not "perfectly viable" cars, they are massive pollution hogs compared to legal cars. Most of them cannot even be fixed at all. They put out as much pollution in 5000 miles as a Camry will in 200,000+ miles.
2) The cars are going to get crushed anyway, as all cars do. This just means they will be crushed sooner. Crushing a car doesn't directly create any pollution.
3) Auto factories follow the same EPA rules as anyone else. A new car made at an EPA-legal factory will have a lower footprint than keeping smog-hog TDIs on the road.
4) Local pollution (right in your face, as with a car's exhaust pipe) is far worse for human health than an EPA-legal factory that may be 50+ miles from a city center. For most cities, like L.A., there simply is no car factory at all in the valley, so removing the L.A. TDI's and replacing them with cars produced outside of L.A. (which is every car) will improve the L.A. air pollution, for example.


----------



## rica_gti (Feb 27, 2005)

Help me understand this right are they gonna subtract any milage from now to september of 2015 ? And is there any way to check your car value from last year other then guess?


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

if i am reading everything right.

*****
buyback amt 24,317 + options adj 660 + mileage credit 2,550 = $27,527 (estimated buyback total)
AEM amt 6,542 + options adj 110 + mileage credit 425 = $7,077 (estimated AEM payout total)
*****

$27.5k is more than we paid for the car, NEW, back in Nov 2013. :thumbup:

I lean toward the buyback, because there are a number of uncertainties with keeping the car long term.
But its the wifes car and she really does like her DSG TDI, so we might just roll the dice and shoot for the fix and 'damages' payout.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> So you agree with and decided to clarify for yourself what I said from the start... great...


No, what you said from the start is that fuel economy and or performance would not likely change because these systems are post combustion. You further went on to suggest that one example fix might be to just increase the DEF dosing rate.

The assumption you made in your first post is the DPF and SCR are sized appropriately so car can meet Tier 2, Bin 5 without impacting any other vehicle parameter (fuel economy, performance, and I added component durability to the list). It's possible they are, and if that's true, then you're correct that increasing the DEF dosing rate will fix the problem for EA288 cars.

My point is the situation is probably not that cut and dry. If VW could've met the emissions requirements on the EA288 cars simply by the urea dosing rate, then why didn't they do that from the beginning on the EA288 cars? However, if the SCR or DPF is undersized, then your options are to either upsize the components, tune your way out of the problem (affecting drivability, fuel economy), or some combination of both. You can throw more DEF at it, but there are limitations to how much DEF you can flow into the SCR before you start plugging the exhaust with build up (affecting component durability).

This is how fuel economy, drivability, and component durability become linked to soot and NOx emissions... which was my point from the beginning.

EDIT: For further clarification: This appears to be the situation on the 3.0L models (Audi, Porsche, Touareg).




chris86vw said:


> Because you also haven't heard them mention an actual fix, can't extend the warranty on something that doesn't exist.
> 
> 
> The reason a fix would likely not change performance or economy is that that these systems are after the combustion process and not add any extra restriction in a way that would reduce either the output or the economy.
> ...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> We've had this discussion already, but it was probably 50+ pages ago.


Yes you are right some of this has been discussed already..




> Most of them cannot even be fixed at all.


This is still an assumption and even then not true. There is a chance that it MAY be too costly to fix many of them, there is no evidence that most CANNOT be fixed.


Did you not have an elementary school teacher that corrected students on the proper use of can vs may when asking to use the bathroom? 





> They put out as much pollution in 5000 miles as a Camry will in 200,000+ miles.


And this is based on the 40X output which is limited scenario that does not happen during all or even most operating miles?


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

Just getting home and checking in
Looks like if I drive the crap out of her for another 18 months I will put another 30K on Scooter
That will lower my payback by about $2700
That is pretty damn good IMO
I will miss her Dec 30 2017


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

BUJonathan said:


> No, what you said from the start is that fuel economy and or performance would not likely change because these systems are post combustion. You further went on to suggest that one example fix might be to just increase the DEF dosing rate.
> 
> The assumption you made in your first post is the DPF and SCR are sized appropriately so they can meet Tier 2, Bin 5 without impacting any other vehicle parameter (fuel economy, performance, and I added component durability to the list). *It's possible they are, and if that's true, then you're correct that increasing the DEF dosing rate will fix the problem for EA288 cars.*


So actually yes, what I said from the start. The fact that they are post combustion also still stands based on what I said from the start.



> My point is the situation is probably not that cut and dry.


Right, which is why even as you quoted shows I said one example of a possible fix that would NOT increase fuel consumption or hinder vehicle performance. Both do not HAVE to suffer as many people have claimed, I gave an example of why it is NOT cut and dry. You made a bunch of posts confusing SCR and EGR functionality. 


You deciding to discuss other methods is fine. Telling me repeatedly I was wrong then saying the same thing i did from the start is not fine. I was clarifying why a fix doesn't automatically have to mean that people will get worse fuel economy and make less power. You now claim to have agreed with that all along but instead decided to argue against it for some reason. 

I even based my level of care on whether or not hardware was required, which means I acknowledged it.


----------



## HI SPEED (Sep 3, 2004)

We were seriously considering taking over payments on a friends 2010 TDI wagon last year before all this broke. Doing the math if I'm reading this right I not only would have had a free car for a 2 years, I would have profited $6-7000 😭

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> So actually yes, what I said from the start. The fact that they are post combustion also still stands based on what I said from the start.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're misunderstanding that someone can agree with one portion of what you wrote, while also disagreeing or adding new information to the remaining portion. And yes, you're correct, I made a post where I incorrectly linked DEF usage and soot. You called me out on it. That's fine, since my purpose on this forum is to learn more about cars, and share with others what I know about cars.

I'm simply telling you (repeatedly) that if fixing the emissions violation were as simple as increasing urea dosing on the EA288 cars, why didn't VW do that from the start of production? So I explained (repeatedly) why.

For reference, this is the exact situation on the 3.0L TDI cars (Audi, Porsche, T-reg). DEF dosing alone isn't enough to bring them into compliance so VW's proposed fix is to replace the catalysts and reprogram the ECU: http://jalopnik.com/porsche-thinks-its-got-a-fix-for-the-cayennes-polluting-1752706240


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

Not everyone will be happy with the buyback offers. Using the charts on the FTC website, I worked up an estimate on the payment for our 2010 Jetta TDI. The amount is even less than what we were expecting from earlier rumors and leaks. We may get only about $11500. The documents indicate that the calculation is based on trade-in value in September 2015, minus a mileage adjustment, and plus an extra $5100 of apology money. Our net amount is only about $2000 more than the current KBB estimate for a private sale.

So, essentially, the buyback offer from VW might be barely enough to compensate for the loss of retail value due to the bad publicity out of Dieselgate.

My SO bought this car new in 2010. It runs great, the loan is paid off, and she was hoping to keep it for at least 15 years. That $11500 is probably not enough to buy anything comparable, and she does not want another loan payment. So we are likely to refuse the buyback and hope for a fix that won't destroy the drivability and economical qualities that led us to choose a TDI.

Other questions are still unanswered. What happens if we keep the car, and VW can't come up with a fix? What happens if we refuse the fix? Will an unfixed car be legal to drive in our state (WA)? Will we be able to obtain parts and service for another 10 years?


----------



## Volkl (Oct 2, 2003)

I'm happy with the numbers I've figured out, but not so happy with the mileage deduction. I bought my car new less than 2 months before the scandal broke, and keep a daily mileage log since I use the car for work. 

The difference between the chart mileage deduction and the actual miles on the day the scandal broke is $870.


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

Keeping my 2015 TDI SEL and running away with $7400! :thumbup:

Oh, and I'll leave this hear...

http://www.industrytap.com/worlds-1...pollution-than-all-the-cars-in-the-world/8182


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

julianv said:


> Not everyone will be happy with the buyback offers. Using the charts on the FTC website, I worked up an estimate on the payment for our 2010 Jetta TDI. The amount is even less than what we were expecting from earlier rumors and leaks. We may get only about $11500. The documents indicate that the calculation is based on trade-in value in September 2015, minus a mileage adjustment, and plus an extra $5100 of apology money. Our net amount is only about $2000 more than the current KBB estimate for a private sale.
> 
> So, essentially, the buyback offer from VW might be barely enough to compensate for the loss of retail value due to the bad publicity out of Dieselgate.
> 
> ...


I am in the same boat. 2010's are getting the sticky end of the stick.


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

Phil Pugliese said:


> I am in the same boat. 2010's are getting the sticky end of the stick.



How is $5000 cash in your pocket for a now 6 year old car getting the sticky end of the stick?

My Golf TDI is 1 year old and I get $7400.

5K for an old car is awesome IMHO


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

caj1 said:


> Why would the cars being exported out of the US need to meet emissions requirements for this country? That makes no sense... can you site that? I'd love to learn more.
> 
> Also, what's the environmental impact of crushing hundreds of thousands of perfectly viable cars?


The US EPA and CARB have taken the position that it doesn't want VW to be able to export America's polluting cars to the rest of the world. A socially-responsible position, one of the many things US EPA and CARB are doing on behalf of us atmosphere-breathers.

Here's an EPA website announcing this aspect of the deal:

_"Volkswagen may resell or export vehicles that are bought back or for which the lease is terminated* only after performing an EPA and CARB approved emission modification. If there is no approved emissions modification, the vehicles will be recycled or scrapped.*_

Makes PERFECT sense.

The environmental impact of crushing hundreds of thousands of cars is terrible, of course. But of course these cars aren't "viable", as you question asserts. Even VW acknowledges that.

On balance, crushing them and punishing VW so severely that it and other companies are discouraged from trying to commit similar crimes is the best environmental choice out of a universe of bad options.

EDIT: h/t to chris86vw, who got this right first


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

julianv said:


> Not everyone will be happy with the buyback offers. Using the charts on the FTC website, I worked up an estimate on the payment for our 2010 Jetta TDI. The amount is even less than what we were expecting from earlier rumors and leaks. We may get only about $11500. The documents indicate that the calculation is based on trade-in value in September 2015, minus a mileage adjustment, and plus an extra $5100 of apology money. Our net amount is only about $2000 more than the current KBB estimate for a private sale.
> 
> So, essentially, the buyback offer from VW might be barely enough to compensate for the loss of retail value due to the bad publicity out of Dieselgate.
> 
> ...


You must have close to 140,000 miles on the car if you have calculated that as the payout. Do you really think a 140,000 mile, 7 year old car is worth more than $11,500? 

On the flip side, if you live in a state that isn't CARB, then you very well may get to hold on to it without fixing it for another 8 years until it hits 15 years old. Or if VW gets a fix approved for 2010 models, you can get the car fixed AND get about $4500 ($5100 less your mileage adjustment). 

The real question is what will happen in CARB states and states that have emissions checks. Particularly if VW doesn't get fixes for the cars approved. Are states going to block registrations which would force buyback or sale outside of those states?


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

So, if you choose the buyback option, do you still get money additional to the amount some might make off of the buyback deal? 

If I owe $25k on my car and buyback amount is $28k, I will make $3k there, but is that all I'm going to make or are they still paying the $1k to $7k also if you choose the buyback? Kind of confused...


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

I wonder if the buyback can be used as a trade in allowance? If so, that will sweeten the deal by the $2K in taxes I would otherwise pay. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## tsimitpo (Jul 22, 2014)

julianv said:


> Will an unfixed car be legal to drive in our state (WA)?


I read somewhere that WA (my state as well) is going CARB in 2018. At the moment, there is no emission testing on diesels in WA, so you could probably drive it as long as you want without a fix (assuming there ever IS one). Once WA goes CARB, that may no longer be the case. If it were me, I'd drive it as is until December 2018 and then do either a buyback or the fix (if available).

I agree - not everyone is going to be made whole. The public comment period between now and July 26 may see some changes for cases such as yours.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

SixpackMk3 said:


> So, if you choose the buyback option, do you still get money additional to the amount some might make off of the buyback deal?
> 
> If I owe $25k on my car and buyback amount is $28k, I will make $3k there, but is that all I'm going to make or are they still paying the $1k to $7k also if you choose the buyback? Kind of confused...


The number you get from the chart, plus modifications for options, plus (or minus depending on your mileage) for the mileage is your buyout including the hush money....

Vehicle buyback chart;
https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/cases/att._1a_-_buyback_modification_table.pdf

Mileage adjustments charts:
Golf
Beetle and Jetta
Passat and A3


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Ricky Bobby said:


> ^Because God knows the factory DPF's on the non-urea cars can't make it to 120k anyway even with the excess emissions lol



Yeah I didn't know about teh DPF issue until about two years in our 2011 ownership. My dealer said its like a 3k repair? Pretty much a guaranteed issue from talking to one of the techs. I think we are going to take the buyback, I mean we love the car, and 5k would be nice, but if in 15k I'm going to have to spend 3k on it..... I'm out. On the other hand if they warranty these parts to say 200k, then we's keep it.


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

i do not like or understand why the buyback price is trade-in value. That makes no sense. The value of a vehicle is what another person would pay to buy it. That is a lot higher than what a dealer would give in trade. After all, the vehicle you will be forced to buy to replace your tdi going to come at a retail price, not trade-in price.

VW should pay what its dealers would have charged a buyer of your car, used, on its lot, on 9/1/15. Not what the dealer would have paid you in trade in. Hopefully you 2.0 people will make this clear during the public comment period.


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

spockcat said:


> You must have close to 140,000 miles on the car if you have calculated that as the payout. Do you really think a 140,000 mile, 7 year old car is worth more than $11,500??


Our car is a 2010 Jetta TDI sedan, with sunroof, and "premium" wheels. There are about 47,000 miles on the odo. For calculating the buyback number, I carefully followed the instructions on the FTC web pages, adjusting for mileage, and came up with a total payout of around $11,500 from VW. That assumes that it happens soon, and does not include the $1000 in cash cards that we already received.

As I said in my previous post, this is only about $2000 above what KBB says we should currently get in a private sale.

But, unlike many of the people who visit this forum, my SO is not the type who looks for incentives to buy another car. She buys a car and keeps it until it becomes unreliable and too expensive to fix, 15 years or more. Right now, the Jetta is in excellent shape, runs just fine, and she likes it. I hope we can keep it as long as possible. For $11,500 I don't think she can get anything nearly as nice. If VW can retrofit a pollution fix and put $5100 in her pocket, that's great. But if the fix is likely to impact performance, fuel consumption, or engine longevity, we may decide to refuse it.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

julianv said:


> Our car is a 2010 Jetta TDI sedan, with sunroof, and "premium" wheels. There are about 47,000 miles on the odo. For calculating the buyback number, I carefully followed the instructions on the FTC web pages, adjusting for mileage, and came up with a total payout of around $11,500 from VW. That assumes that it happens soon, and does not include the $1000 in cash cards that we already received.
> 
> As I said in my previous post, this is only about $2000 above what KBB says we should currently get in a private sale.
> 
> But, unlike many of the people who visit this forum, my SO is not the type who looks for incentives to buy another car. She buys a car and keeps it until it becomes unreliable and too expensive to fix, 15 years or more. Right now, the Jetta is in excellent shape, runs just fine, and she likes it. I hope we can keep it as long as possible. For $11,500 I don't think she can get anything nearly as nice. If VW can retrofit a pollution fix and put $5100 in her pocket, that's great. But if the fix is likely to impact performance, fuel consumption, or engine longevity, we may decide to refuse it.


 You're calculating it wrong. Reread the _Instructions to Calculate Your Mileage Adjustment_ very carefully. Just the car without mileage adjustment is about $14,600. Then in October, assuming you have 50,000 miles then, you will subtract about 12,500 from that 50,000 miles and come up with an adjustment of +$2850. So your car should have a buyback value of approximately $17,450.

EDIT: There is also a further set of instructions at the bottom of the mileage charts in a grey box which is confusing. Anyone else see this and know how to interpret it?



> Further Adjustment (applies to both Buyback and Modification)
> If the Modification amount from (5) above is less than $5,100:
> a. Subtract the Modification amount from (5) from $5,100.
> b. For Buyback: Add the result from (a) to the number from (5) above.
> ...



VW needs to get their calculator online ASAP so the calculations are as simple as entering your VIN, mileage, options and date of expected buyback.


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

julianv said:


> Our car is a 2010 Jetta TDI sedan, with sunroof, and "premium" wheels. There are about 47,000 miles on the odo. For calculating the buyback number, I carefully followed the instructions on the FTC web pages, adjusting for mileage, and came up with a total payout of around $11,500 from VW. That assumes that it happens soon, and does not include the $1000 in cash cards that we already received.
> 
> As I said in my previous post, this is only about $2000 above what KBB says we should currently get in a private sale.
> 
> But, unlike many of the people who visit this forum, my SO is not the type who looks for incentives to buy another car. She buys a car and keeps it until it becomes unreliable and too expensive to fix, 15 years or more. Right now, the Jetta is in excellent shape, runs just fine, and she likes it. I hope we can keep it as long as possible. For $11,500 I don't think she can get anything nearly as nice. If VW can retrofit a pollution fix and put $5100 in her pocket, that's great. But if the fix is likely to impact performance, fuel consumption, or engine longevity, we may decide to refuse it.


Are you using this
https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/cases/att._1a_-_buyback_modification_table.pdf

I calculate you at over $15K

Edited


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Bird67 said:


> i do not like or understand why the buyback price is trade-in value. That makes no sense. The value of a vehicle is what another person would pay to buy it. That is a lot higher than what a dealer would give in trade. After all, the vehicle you will be forced to buy to replace your tdi going to come at a retail price, not trade-in price.
> 
> VW should pay what its dealers would have charged a buyer of your car, used, on its lot, on 9/1/15. Not what the dealer would have paid you in trade in. Hopefully you 2.0 people will make this clear during the public comment period.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

lol the biggest windfall in consumer history and TDI owners still complain about not getting 'enough' cash to satisfy the pain and suffering and 15% depreciation they've suffered :laugh:

_[edit]not 2nd law approved![/edit]_


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

Is the second column in the chart used to figure what payout you receive for opting the fix? If you opt for a buyback you receive what adds up from the first column only? Just want to make sure I'm reading correctly. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## silverA4quattro (Jun 22, 2004)

Buran said:


> We sold ours on September 18th. I'm trying to find actual settlement text that tells me what to expect. At least it looks like we'll get something but I don't know how much. Signed up for updates on the settlement website... and a-ha, there it is in the thread.



My 2010 Jetta TDI sedan was totalled on May 15th of this year. I was the 2nd owner, bought it CPO in January of 2012 and registered for the goodwill program, etc. My insurance payout was give or take $10K and using the charts, my buyout would have been closer to $14500. Hoping that I can get some recourse here...would be thrilled if they paid the difference between insurance payout and their buyout option. 

We have a long history and loyalty to VW and our latest purchases were a new 2016 GTI and a CPO Tiguan to replace our totalled Jetta. I registered on the settlement page for updates, I so I guess I'll see what happens.


----------



## biggus dickus (Jun 28, 2016)

So I think this is a stupid question and I probably know the answer but the number on the ftc chart in buyback column is total between the assessed value and the extra payment? So I will get that number (25.5k) minus the penalty for having a manual + the mileage adjustment. 

right?


----------



## Lord Foul (Jun 7, 2013)

spockcat said:


> EDIT: There is also a further set of instructions at the bottom of the mileage charts in a grey box which is confusing. Anyone else see this and know how to interpret it?
> 
> Further Adjustment (applies to both Buyback and Modification)
> If the Modification amount from (5) above is less than $5,100:
> ...


The way I read that, if your adjustment is less than $5100, ignore the adjustment calculation and use $5100 as your adjustment. I believe that'll apply to most people that aren't putting a huge number of miles on their TDIs.

It also means that most cars are worth the same in October as they are two years from now. If that's the case, there's not much reason to turn in a car in October.

EDIT: I can't be interpreting that correctly, because if I am, the adjustment is almost always $5100, excepting a few cases of old cars with extremely low mileage. So either I'm missing something or this is screwed up. In any case, I agree that a calculator is needed ASAP.


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

spockcat said:


> julianv said:
> 
> 
> > Our car is a 2010 Jetta TDI sedan, with sunroof, and "premium" wheels. There are about 47,000 miles on the odo. For calculating the buyback number, I carefully followed the instructions on the FTC web pages, adjusting for mileage, and came up with a total payout of around $11,500 from VW. That assumes that it happens soon, and does not include the $1000 in cash cards that we already received.
> ...


OK, I think I see what's going on. I did not notice that the mileage adjustments could go positive or negative, so I subtracted. I guess they are basing the buybacks on average yearly usage, and adjusting for people who drive less or more. I used column one in this document to compute the base buyback value for our car, a 2010 Jetta TDI sedan, puchased in Pacific NW.

14177 base value
+540 added for sunroof
-------
14717

Then I used the chart in Attachment 2B to compute the mileage adjustment. If the deal went down this month....

9 months x 1042 = 9378

47000 current ODO reading
-9378
-------
37622 adjusted mileage

From the chart, the buyback adjustment for a 2010 Jetta with 37622 adjusted miles is 2850. If this is added to the value from the first chart, I get

14717
+2850
-------
17567

That's certainly a better number than 11500, but it's still probably not enough to convince the SO to do a buyback.


----------



## Lord Foul (Jun 7, 2013)

julianv said:


> Then I used the chart in Attachment 2B to compute the mileage adjustment. If the deal went down this month....
> 
> 9 months x 1042 = 9378
> 
> ...


When I follow instruction 6 in Attachment 2B, I get to do a confusing "Further Adjustment." If my reading of that is correct, the $17,567 figure gets further adjusted up to $19,817. But who knows if that's correct or not?


----------



## euro16v (Dec 12, 1999)

NickCarter said:


> Is the second column in the chart used to figure what payout you receive for opting the fix? If you opt for a buyback you receive what adds up from the first column only? Just want to make sure I'm reading correctly.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Correct, you get only the first column for buyback and only second column for the fix option.


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

Lord Foul said:


> When I follow instruction 6 in Attachment 2B, I get to do a confusing "Further Adjustment." If my reading of that is correct, the $17,567 figure gets further adjusted up to $19,817. But who knows if that's correct or not?


Yep, these instructions could be written better.

My impression is that step 6 applies to the result from step 5, what you get after you add or subtract the correction ("Adjustment Amount") from the table. The "Further Adjustment" basically ensures that your bottom-line compensation will not be less than $5100. They could have stated it that way.


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

euro16v said:


> Correct, you get only the first column for buyback and only second column for the fix option.


Thank you sir. 

Now I have to decide if I sell it back or keep it and use my cash for fun mods. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

Silly_me said:


> lol the biggest windfall in consumer history and TDI owners still complain about not getting 'enough' cash to satisfy the pain and suffering and 15% depreciation they've suffered :laugh:
> 
> _[edit]not 2nd law approved![/edit]_


:facepalm: Look, I realize that it's sacrilege to criticize mother VW. But if you'd have actually read my post about retail vs trade-in, you'd have seen it has nothing to do with "pain and suffering", which is a stupid expression that has nothing to do with this case, the fraud, the settlement or buyback. To make this proposed settlement work, VW has to reach a very high % of owners who choose to buy back. I suspect that offering the buyback based on trade-in value will likely not get them there. 

As many are now finding out by working through the calculations, the deal is not as great as it sounds. A 20% premium over trade-in doesn't even get to you the car's actual value. To replace the car you turn in you'll have to pay retail, plus taxes, registration, etc. After the exuberance of yesterday's announcement settles in, I think some owners will run the calculations and find they would prefer to keep their TDIs - enough that it could be hard for VW to reach the 85% buy-back threshold.


----------



## rica_gti (Feb 27, 2005)

I dont understand all this complaining about not paying you enough money ........... Simply i paid for my jetta $23500 4 1/2 years ago now VW is offering me $19500
with 58k on it ...I don't see how this is not in my or yours favor.... Don't accept to get 80% of your new car value with 150+ miles on the car ,lets be realistic ....I am very Happy with what VW is doing. I owned at least 20 TDI's and i would buy them again!!!!!


----------



## rica_gti (Feb 27, 2005)

Bird67 said:


> :facepalm: Look, I realize that it's sacrilege to criticize mother VW. But if you'd have actually read my post about retail vs trade-in, you'd have seen it has nothing to do with "pain and suffering", which is a stupid expression that has nothing to do with this case, the fraud, the settlement or buyback. To make this proposed settlement work, VW has to reach a very high % of owners who choose to buy back. I suspect that offering the buyback based on trade-in value will likely not get them there.
> 
> As many are now finding out by working through the calculations, the deal is not as great as it sounds. A 20% premium over trade-in doesn't even get to you the car's actual value. To replace the car you turn in you'll have to pay retail, plus taxes, registration, etc. After the exuberance of yesterday's announcement settles in, I think some owners will run the calculations and find they would prefer to keep their TDIs - enough that it could be hard for VW to reach the 85% buy-back threshold.



When all added Total $$ looks pretty good (if your car is in good condition and don't have 200K+) I don't care how they figure it out...


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

I'm more than happy with the buy back. I'm getting about $18,700 for a 2011 with 102,000 miles. I've had nothing but trouble free driving with this vehicle. One thing I noted was there is no additional $ for options like, Bi-Xenons and, rear seat side airbags; both options my vehicle has in addition to sunroof, navigation and heated seats.


----------



## robr2 (May 5, 2005)

I wonder what happens with the 50 or so 2015 TDI's buried on the back lot at my local dealer. Does VW modify them and allow the dealer to sell them at a great price?

My dealer also has (3) used 2015 passat TDI SEL's executive cars on the lot and they are asking about $28K ea. I wonder how those are affected.


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

What I'm saying is that VW's counting on a very high take rate for this deal. Ken Feinberg promised the take rate would be well above 90%. My point about the offer - that it is based on trade-in rather than retail - is that it may not be enough to entice the take rate numbers Mr. Feinberg promised. If only 1 out of 10 eligible TDI owners declines the deal, based on Mr. Feinberg's promised take rate, the program is a failure. 

Look, predictions, like opinions...everyone has one. Mine is that, in 6, 12 or 18 months, we'll be hearing reports that VW isn't getting enough takers under this proposal. If I'm wrong, I assure you I'll be the first to acknowledge it and learn something at the same time.


----------



## clintg60-16v (Dec 13, 2002)

I've heard the '15s (when fixed) will be sold at a steep discount. VW will likely subsidize the dealer loss on the units. I fear those that hold onto their TDIs are going to be smacked even harder with depreciation once the '15s get blown out (when stop-sale lifts). And buy-backs that qualify for resale will have to go even cheaper. One would seem foolish to buy any affected used TDI for sale from a dealer at the moment. I believe those market prices will come down substantially as time goes on. 

I've got my eye on a '15 2DR Golf TDI; local dealer is estimating at least $7500 or more off MSRP. 

I plan to sell my '14 JSW back. Only 30k miles; the mileage adjustment offsets the buy-back 'penalty' for a manual transmission. It was just in an accident which resulted in minor cosmetic damage to the rear bumper. I'll take the cash for that accident since the damage doesn't appear to impact the buy-back.

I'll finish my 931 project and maybe buy a nice 5-spd MK5 for a commuter (if that discounted TDI doesn't pan out).


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

Bird67 said:


> :facepalm: Look, I realize that it's sacrilege to criticize mother VW. But if you'd have actually read my post about retail vs trade-in, you'd have seen it has nothing to do with "pain and suffering", which is a stupid expression that has nothing to do with this case, the fraud, the settlement or buyback. To make this proposed settlement work, VW has to reach a very high % of owners who choose to buy back. I suspect that offering the buyback based on trade-in value will likely not get them there.
> 
> As many are now finding out by working through the calculations, the deal is not as great as it sounds. A 20% premium over trade-in doesn't even get to you the car's actual value. To replace the car you turn in you'll have to pay retail, plus taxes, registration, etc. After the exuberance of yesterday's announcement settles in, I think some owners will run the calculations and find they would prefer to keep their TDIs - enough that it could be hard for VW to reach the 85% buy-back threshold.


Agreed. The $5100 minimum compensation gets watered down significantly by the fact that VW is offering trade-in value for the cars. I paid retail for my TDI Cup Edition (brand new) and whatever I get to replace it will be purchased at retail or private party. The purchase of a new car would not have even been on my radar if not for dieselgate and VW's dishonesty. Although much better than no compensation, it's certainly not going to leave me with the warm and fuzzies.



quailallstar said:


> I'm more than happy with the buy back. I'm getting about $18,700 for a 2011 with 102,000 miles. I've had nothing but trouble free driving with this vehicle. One thing I noted was there is no additional $ for options like, Bi-Xenons and, rear seat side airbags; both options my vehicle has in addition to sunroof, navigation and heated seats.


Yup... the $1500 TDI Cup / Thunderbunny body kit on my car hasn't been taken into account. If that's the case, perhaps I should find another base candy white bumper cover and sell mine.



Bird67 said:


> What I'm saying is that VW's counting on a very high take rate for this deal. Ken Feinberg promised the take rate would be well above 90%. My point about the offer - that it is based on trade-in rather than retail - is that it may not be enough to entice the take rate numbers Mr. Feinberg promised. If only 1 out of 10 eligible TDI owners declines the deal, based on Mr. Feinberg's promised take rate, the program is a failure.
> 
> Look, predictions, like opinions...everyone has one. Mine is that, in 6, 12 or 18 months, we'll be hearing reports that VW isn't getting enough takers under this proposal. If I'm wrong, I assure you I'll be the first to acknowledge it and learn something at the same time.


Agreed from the standpoint of the buybacks. If repairs can be carried out on all vehicles, I would bet the take rate will hit 85% based on the modification money.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

i believe the take rate is 85%.

i dunno, i was explaining this to my M-I-L; they essentially bought a car and drove it 3 years & 40k+ miles for $80 a month. (excluding the $1k goodwill, they even paid for an extended warranty, so hopefully something back from that). The mileage deduction seems aggressive to those who bought an TDI for the purpose of putting on miles but otherwise hard to complain for such a cheap "lease".

*edit. Will say they won't return to the VW brand as they are already cross-shopping everything this week.


----------



## sohccammer427 (Mar 24, 2009)

Ricky Bobby said:


> It was discussed earlier - VW cannot resell in the US any of the bought back or frozen models (as new or CPO), or export any of the TDI's until there is a EPA/CARB regulatory approved "fix" for all generations (3) of the 2.0 TDI - so either they will sit and VW will figure out how much they want to invest in retarding performance (as I don't think CARB will accept anything less than full compliance, no middle ground here) and possibly angering the remaining owners who kept their cars, more, or they will get crushed, IMO.


So up to 550,000 cars in the US *could* be destroyed (11,000,000 worldwide). I wonder what the environmental affect of all the resources involved in making that happen plus all the energy and materials need to make replacement vehicles and bring them to market would be?

Seems to me that if the EPA just fined the heck out of VW, mandated all new Tdi vehicles are complaint and grandfathered the currently recalled vehicles to be complaint Mother Earth would be better off.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Question to anyone with historical data: I was under the impression that VWoA wasn't operating at a profit during the period when most of these cars were sold, so since the first cheatersels were sold to last year, what was VWoA's profit in total? 





Bird67 said:


> :facepalm: Look, I realize that it's sacrilege to criticize mother VW.


Yeah, that wasn't my concern :laugh:



Bird67 said:


> As many are now finding out by working through the calculations, the deal is not as great as it sounds. A 20% premium over trade-in doesn't even get to you the car's actual value. To replace the car you turn in you'll have to pay retail, plus taxes, registration, etc. After the exuberance of yesterday's announcement settles in, I think some owners will run the calculations and find they would prefer to keep their TDIs - enough that it could be hard for VW to reach the 85% buy-back threshold.


The thing is, you don't have to have the car bought back, you don't have to have the car fixed (unless your state requires it), you can motor along happily, pretending this thing never happened in a car you were happy enough to buy in the first place *and* pocket several thousand dollars in compensation _just because_.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> The thing is, you don't have to have the car bought back, *you don't have to have the car fixed (unless your state requires it)*, you can motor along happily, pretending this thing never happened in a car you were happy enough to buy in the first place *and* *pocket several thousand dollars in compensation* _just because_.


Can you really get the compensation without agreeing to either having your car fixed or bought back? If true, I think that's going to reduce the amount of people that actually follow through with the "technical fix".


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

BUJonathan said:


> I'm simply telling you (repeatedly) that if fixing the emissions violation were as simple as increasing urea dosing on the EA288 cars, why didn't VW do that from the start of production? So I explained (repeatedly) why.


I'm simply telling you (repeatedly), that the one possible path to a fix did not mean what you thought it meant but you just dug yourself deeper and deeper until now you are back pedaling and attempting to make it sound like what you told me I was wrong about the whole time was actually what you were saying and was correct... That's just sad.


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

Is the stop date Dec 2017 or Dec 2018?


----------



## mk3trekk (Mar 11, 2005)

tsimitpo said:


> Then there's the legal documentation that gets into loan payoff, loan forgiveness, and a bunch of other stuff that makes this much more complicated than the summary documents.
> 
> 
> Main Document
> ...


So after reading this, the remaining balance on my vw credit account will be subtracted from the buyback check I am to receive? Trying to wrap my head around the legal speak.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Bird67 said:


> *VW should pay what its dealers would have charged a buyer of your car, used, on its lot, on 9/1/15.* Not what the dealer would have paid you in trade in. Hopefully you 2.0 people will make this clear during the public comment period.


The basically are.

Base price for my 2012 is 20,777

If I take off the 5100 that puts it at about 15k.

Cars similar to mine were on used car lots for about 14-16k when this broke. Carmax had one for 18k which had nav, the pano roof and was DSG, car was way way way over priced but if someone negotiated that down to about 16,500 that would still fall in line with the extra money VW is chipping in for those options.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

silverA4quattro said:


> My 2010 Jetta TDI sedan was totalled on May 15th of this year. I was the 2nd owner, bought it CPO in January of 2012 and registered for the goodwill program, etc. My insurance payout was give or take $10K and using the charts, my buyout would have been closer to $14500. Hoping that I can get some recourse here...would be thrilled if they paid the difference between insurance payout and their buyout option.


There is very specific wording in the order for someone in your situation, I suggest you read through it as there will be different steps you must take.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Bird67 said:


> To make this proposed settlement work, VW has to reach a very high % of owners who choose to buy back.


Actually legally to make it work a % only need to be repaired or bought back, not specifically bought back. VW could actually fix the required 85% not buy back a single one and the settlement still works.





> As many are now finding out by working through the calculations, the deal is not as great as it sounds.


Unrealistic expectations doesn't mean the deal is bad.

What I'm seeing is many people are bad at math.


----------



## kbad (May 26, 2007)

*VW to pay car owners up to $33,000 each over the emissions fiasco ..*

Volkswagen to pay car owners up to $33,000 each over the emissions fiasco ( http://www.marketwatch.com/story/vo...000-each-over-the-emissions-fiasco-2016-06-28 )



> Volkswagen is willing to pay nearly 10 times as much as the highest-ever auto maker settlement to atone for its emissions sins.
> 
> The auto maker VOW, -0.41% submitted settlement terms worth $14.7 billion to a federal judge on Tuesday. The plan includes $10.03 billion for owner compensation, $2.7 billion to an Environmental Protection Agency fund and $2 billion for clean-vehicle initiatives. If approved, the plan would allow about 475,000 diesel vehicles to be bought back by the company at their value before the scandal was announced or have their cars modified to comply with federal emissions standards. Both options provide additional compensation between $5,100 and $10,000 based on the car’s pre-scandal value, according to the New York Times. Volkswagen has said that it has set aside $18 billion for financial penalties related to the scandal.
> 
> ...


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

BUJonathan said:


> Can you really get the compensation without agreeing to either having your car fixed or bought back? If true, I think that's going to reduce the amount of people that actually follow through with the "technical fix".


My understanding is that the mea culpa payout is independent of the buyback/fix (or else PO who have to split the money with the current owner could be over a barrel).


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

chris86vw said:


> Unrealistic expectations doesn't mean the deal is bad.
> 
> What I'm seeing is many people are bad at math.


This is what I'm seeing. Our 2014 we paid after checking last night 27,218 plus tax. Using the buyback charts we're at $29,477 as we're in the $1,440 mileage modification zone with a November buy back and mileage estimate. I think them buying it back for basically what we paid for it including the tax/dealer fees plus what it cost for the few additions I made (Snow tires & tintzzzz) is a good deal. That's going to end up to be about 26,000 miles depreciation free. IIRC our 2014 was mid/lower 20s last summer.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

AJB said:


> Yeah I didn't know about the DPF issue until about two years in our 2011 ownership. My dealer said its like a 3k repair? Pretty much a guaranteed issue from talking to one of the techs. I think we are going to take the buyback, I mean we love the car, and 5k would be nice, but if in 15k I'm going to have to spend 3k on it..... I'm out. On the other hand if they warranty these parts to say 200k, then we's keep it.


I've read that if the DPF's fail early (as in way less than the 120k they are "rated" for) that VW will goodwill most of the repair - one of the guys ended up paying 25% and it was like $500 I think - but from all I've spoken to people they rarely make it to 120k, mostly because of incomplete regens perhaps? I still wish there was a feature that would keep the engine running toward the regen to complete it and then would turn off automatically when finished.

However, just seeing how the engine is absolutely choked with all that emissions equipment in place, I don't think its healthy for long term turbo and engine life anyway - we most likely are moving out to a non-CARB state in the next 12 months, even if we stayed, we'd probably keep it - its going to be $7,100 or so in our pocket and anything that VW does in my opinion can be reversed with a tune and/or Rawtek exhaust if the VW "fix" is too intrusive - This is a whole other can of worms to open.

I've said it a few times but VW doesn't have anything that checks all the boxes for us right now - wife might have been interested in a Tiguan but she loves having the sporty and low to ground feel plus the awesome torque and mileage. I don't want a slushbox so the GSW with 1.8T is out (she can't drive stick) - 

I really wish VW wasn't held to the fire with fixing the different generations - what fixes the 3rd gen 2.0TDI's may be way simpler than what is required to fix the first gens without urea (and especially our wagons which were never designed to accomodate it anyway)

As of today, we are leaning to keep it and take the hush money just because our registration is good in Jersey until 2020 and we should hopefully be moved out of this state way before then, and they don't even test emissions where we are looking (NC) - 

The buyback would have been great if they had the 3rd gen GSW TDI's for sale, I would just let them buy it back and give me a newer version of our car.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> I'm simply telling you (repeatedly), that the one possible path to a fix did not mean what you thought it meant but you just dug yourself deeper and deeper until now you are back pedaling and attempting to make it sound like what you told me I was wrong about the whole time was actually what you were saying and was correct... That's just sad.


When I said "_it's not that simple_" in my first post, I was inferring I agreed with you to a point, but there's additional factors missing from your analysis which may mislead others -- that's not back pedaling or digging a hole. I'll summarize so you can better understand my position.

Controls like DPF and SCR are mandated to control emissions for a given period, I believe 120k miles (we can confirm by Google if you like). If the DEF and SCR are improperly sized, there's practical limitations to how much NOx can be converted and practical limitations on how much DEF can be dosed. If you saturate the exhaust with DEF, scale will build up over time inside the exhaust. You don't need to "flood" with DEF pouring out the exhaust for this to occur. In this situation, your choices are to upsize the catalysts, retune the engine, or more realistically a combo of both. If you reached the saturation point on DEF dosing, and don't have room on the vehicle for a larger catalyst, your remaining option is retuning to the engine (short of changing physical engine hardware like heads). In doing so, it's possible power, fuel economy, DPF life, or all of the above may be affected because from an engine tuning perspective, reducing NOx generally increases soot production.

My purpose here is learn more about cars, and share what I know. I admittedly haven't worked on diesel engine calibration. However, I have worked on gas engine and transmission calibration and taken graduate coursework on IC engines. The reason I commented on your first post is because you were simplifying the situation and potentially giving EA288 owners hope the "technical fix" will only be as complicated as a software update. While that may be possible, I'm explaining the solution may be more complex than that. If VW only needed to up the DEF dosing rate to meet the NOx requirements, why didn't they do that in first place and why did they create risk by continuing to use the defeat software on the EA288 engines if they didn't need to?

If you need proof urea dosing alone isn't sufficient in all cases to remediate high NOx, see the situation on the 3.0L TDI -- VW is proposing to replace the catalysts and update the ECU. Porsche CEO Oliver Blume (who has an engineering degree) nicely inferred there are practical limitations on how far a given engine and emissions system can reduce emissions when he said, "_Everything we can do for this particular engine (3.0L TDI) has been done for now and we are now awaiting feedback (from the EPA)._" Parenthesis are my additions for clarification.

If you feel the need to continue this discussion, please do so by Private Message, and without the personal attacks.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

Unlike some of you guys who seem like they aren't too happy about the numbers, I'm actually pretty enthusiastic about turning my car in.

I'm looking at getting paid $2,700 over my purchase price (minus the cost of 5 oil changes) to have driven my '11 45k miles over the last 14 months. I put 1/3 down and took a very short loan so by the time this all plays out I should have the last bit paid off and the title to turn over, meaning 100% of my check will be mine to keep. Anticipating the buyback, I found a great deal on a replacement daily driver (paid cash) that I've been able to fix the things over the last month that took thousands off the asking price and will have it on the road ahead of the time to turn in the TDI. 

Overall I'm going to be in a great place after all is said and done. That said, I'll never buy another newer generation VW.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

BUJonathan said:


> When I said "_it's not that simple_" in my first post, I was inferring I agreed with you to a point, but there's additional factors missing from your analysis which may mislead others -- that's not back pedaling or digging a hole. I'll summarize so you can better understand my position.


The only thing that is not that simple is the spin you are putting on your first post...



BUJonathan said:


> It's not that simple. As you decrease NOx emissions, soot emissions increase. *So, if VW were to simply just increase the dosing* rate of the DEF, increase the EGR, or retard the timing to fix the NOx problem, *then you would fill up the DPF too quickly.* Increased EGR also hurts fuel economy and power.
> 
> To mitigate filling up the DPF, you need to upsize the filter size to extend its life and perform regens. More frequent regens also hurts fuel economy.


Your first post actually stated NOTHING about what you now are claiming you said.

Increasing DEF dosage could allow for LESS EGR, and MORE Timing, both of which would decrease loading of the DPF. Your first post spoke ONLY of the DPF and nothing about catalyst sizing. 

This is ignoring entirely that my reply was to someone who was stating hardware will be *required* and I gave an example of why that is not necessarily the case. I never said it was the only case, I said it was one example (if you follow the conversation) and that one example as a fix would be a reason why I would not care about a warranty extension, which turns out is extended anyway.


There is no reason to take conversation to PM simply because you were wrong.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> The only thing that is not that simple is the spin you are putting on your first post...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can check your PM box. There's no reason to clutter this thread with personal attacks when I conceded to you several pages ago I made an error -- I've let you have your moment several times already.


----------



## Parklife (Feb 23, 1999)

chris86vw said:


> The only thing that is not that simple is the spin you are putting on your first post...


Jesus Christ, will you two shut the hell up already?

Meanwhile, for those of us who aren't whipping it out to measure in a public forum, has anyone heard about how dealer-installed accessories are handled? As with the Thunderbunny/TDI Cup kit above, there almost needs to be a final dealer inspection to make adjustments for equipment not accounted for in the exceedingly broad strokes of the proposal documents we've seen so far.

Not that my car is so affected, but others on the lot had $2500 in wheels/tires/sunshades/Muddy Buddy/cargo corners/roof rails installed pre-delivery. These are 'OEM' in the sense that they're sold by VW, covered by the VW new-car warranty, and are rolled into financing.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Parklife said:


> Meanwhile, for those of us who aren't whipping it out to measure in a public forum, has anyone heard about how dealer-installed accessories are handled? As with the Thunderbunny/TDI Cup kit above, there almost needs to be a final dealer inspection to make adjustments for equipment not accounted for in the exceedingly broad strokes of the proposal documents we've seen so far.



Not sure why I'd bother helping you after that comment to posts you don't understand, but since I've actively been participating in answering peoples questions while the other user continues to post nonsense I'll still help and point out that the restitution guide clearly differentiates the 2010 sedan from the 2010 cup edition with a base rate of 1800 extra for the cup. 

Accessories I have not seen addressed.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Parklife said:


> Jesus Christ, will you two shut the hell up already?
> 
> Meanwhile, for those of us who aren't whipping it out to measure in a public forum, has anyone heard about how dealer-installed accessories are handled? As with the Thunderbunny/TDI Cup kit above, there almost needs to be a final dealer inspection to make adjustments for equipment not accounted for in the exceedingly broad strokes of the proposal documents we've seen so far.
> 
> Not that my car is so affected, but others on the lot had $2500 in wheels/tires/sunshades/Muddy Buddy/cargo corners/roof rails installed pre-delivery. These are 'OEM' in the sense that they're sold by VW, covered by the VW new-car warranty, and are rolled into financing.



I'd roll in on steelies and every aftermarket or dealer installed accessory stripped off the car. You could probably roll in on bald tires and the dealer wouldn't care. It isn't going to be his problem.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> I'd roll in on steelies and every aftermarket or dealer installed accessory stripped off the car. You could probably roll in on bald tires and the dealer wouldn't care. It isn't going to be his problem.


It possibly could a problem for people taking the option to turn in a lease early since in a sense you never really owned that stuff anyway. For those who financed or own outright, time to flood ebay. :thumbup:


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Sadly, waiting until no sooner than Oct 2016 I have to purchase tires.... that being said, I was able to get a set of decent tires Barum Bravuris 3 for just under $400 with road haz coverage. 
It p*sses me off that I had to put more into our *#DasPolluter* but in AZ you can't risk it and it is my wifes DD. With the summer rain due any day and a road trip planned, it was a decision I had to make... shame that it could go in with "new-ish" tires if we BB by years end.

But considering that at the end of the day, we will have almost $26K of the less than $30K purchase price after 3 1/2 years of use, dog slobber, popped back out bumper (sadly will lose the $$ on the tint, tires, 40K service) but overall, we aren't "unhappy" with the VW deal. They really could have shafted us worse...


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

ONe thing I am tryign to figure out is the mileage adjuster...it says take the number of months since sept 2015 and subtract that from your actual mileage.
Also says they have 2 years to get minimum 85% cars off the road or fixed...what Is keeping someone from keeping the car in storage intill say March 2017 and racking up extra money??


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

PolishSasquatch said:


> ONe thing I am tryign to figure out is the mileage adjuster...it says take the number of months since sept 2015 and subtract that from your actual mileage.
> Also says they have 2 years to get minimum 85% cars off the road or fixed...what Is keeping someone from keeping the car in storage intill say March 2017 and racking up extra money??


Nothing, they could do that.

But would they really see a financial benefit from sitting on a car for 2 extra years? 

I thought about it myself actually, take the keep and fix money on my 2015. Pay off the 2012 so I can drop full coverage (a risk) and store it for a few months (I have space) not even 2 years just enough time required to even out the mileage to not be an $800 penalty. Still not worth it to me. 


Basically someone in a position to wait isn't going to waste their time for a few hundred bucks that may more easily be obtained in that same time period by taking the cash and investing it?



Edit: Actually I sort of started to think about it last night but didn't do the math yet. I could in theory drive my 2012 to the point where the mileage adjustment would keep me in the same bracket even though I put another 2-3k miles on it. That would keep those miles off the 2015 and potentially prevent it from going up a bracket...hmmm


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

spockcat said:


> I'd roll in on steelies and every aftermarket or dealer installed accessory stripped off the car. You could probably roll in on bald tires and the dealer wouldn't care. It isn't going to be his problem.


haha... funny... might be a good way for me to get rid of some crappy aftermarket wheels i have been using to run snow tires.:laugh:

though. depending on the wife's preference of next car... it might be a Golf Wagon, i might spend the $ to swap the oem allseasons off so that i can keep the snows to put back on the oem wheels.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

PolishSasquatch said:


> ONe thing I am tryign to figure out is the mileage adjuster...it says take the number of months since sept 2015 and subtract that from your actual mileage.
> Also says they have 2 years to get minimum 85% cars off the road or fixed...what Is keeping someone from keeping the car in storage intill say March 2017 and racking up extra money??


nothing.

actually that is likely what the wife an i will do shortly. mostly so we prevent the car from getting totalled out in the meantime, while waiting for the buyback period to start.
wife is a teacher, so she doesnt do much summer driving anyways. and if she does, its easy enough to take the Sienna instead.

beyond that once the car is sitting i will likely also change up the insurance coverage a little, and save a little more there as well.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

PolishSasquatch said:


> ONe thing I am tryign to figure out is the mileage adjuster...it says take the number of months since sept 2015 and subtract that from your actual mileage.
> Also says they have 2 years to get minimum 85% cars off the road or fixed...what Is keeping someone from keeping the car in storage intill say March 2017 and racking up extra money??


opportunity cost


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> Edit: Actually I sort of started to think about it last night but didn't do the math yet. I could in theory drive my 2012 to the point where the mileage adjustment would keep me in the same bracket even though I put another 2-3k miles on it. That would keep those miles off the 2015 and potentially prevent it from going up a bracket...hmmm


hadnt thought of it that way.
the way the wife drives, especially over the summer months, mileage will NOT be progressing up/down the brackets almost no matter what she does. she drives less than the 1024/mo allowance.

so maybe just driving the VW could be a good idea. true you dont maximize the buyback amounts... but you DO keep mileage off of other cars, and end up getting the same buyback on the VW even though its a higher mileage, because of the allowance VW is giving.

hmmm...
keep the VW and risk it being totalled, but keep mileage off of other cars. and still get the same buy back.
or
park the car for 2-5 months (depending on how long it takes for the buybacks to start) and get about $1k more on the buyback


----------



## mk3trekk (Mar 11, 2005)

probably a stupid question, but the amount we owe on existing loans is subtracted from the buyback amount when a check is cut to us right? Kinda sucks paying a car note on something I'm waiting to have bought back.

Certainly incentivizes vw to drag their feet for a few extra months.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

You can also sneak in some mileage credit not rushing to the dealer the first day it starts.

(blanking on the exact time periods but think it went as below).

Fairly certain it said the system had to be in place within 90 days of the final approval. That is tentatively july 26th according to the timeline, so 90 days would put you at the last week of october if they took that full time, which is likely why they used that example for calculating miles. If they are doing month to mean any day in that month and not necessarily a 30/31 day window starting from sept 18th 2015 then it would only be another week to get another "free" 1042 miles. So someone borderline one of the mileage brackets could easily recover another couple hundred bucks by just waiting a week. Then on top of that if they only go by the miles from the day you submit for buyback or fix, which I think it said they had to finalize within 30 days of??? you could be close to going over still drive the car for a few weeks without penalty. I did not see information on when mileage would be recorded for their calculation. 

We are TDI owners after all


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

mk3trekk said:


> Certainly incentivizes vw to drag their feet for a few extra months.


They must fund the escrow account within 15 days (I think) from the final approval. That means early august if it is approved based on the current time line. They have 90 days to start buying cars back (edit: or accept fix options), that would be 75 days their money is doing nothing (maybe collecting some minimal interest?). They are actually allowed to take funds out of the escrow account at certain time periods if the remaining amount proves to be more than what they would be required to pay out for the remaining vehicles that have not come forward for a buyback or fix.

It is in VWs best financial interest to sort this as quickly as possible, once the final approval has been made, not drag their feet.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Sump said:


> This is what I'm seeing. Our 2014 we paid after checking last night 27,218 plus tax. Using the buyback charts we're at $29,477 as we're in the $1,440 mileage modification zone with a November buy back and mileage estimate. I think them buying it back for basically what we paid for it including the tax/dealer fees plus what it cost for the few additions I made (Snow tires & tintzzzz) is a good deal. That's going to end up to be about 26,000 miles depreciation free. IIRC our 2014 was mid/lower 20s last summer.


The thing is you really ahve to subtract the 5k from the buyout amount, since you could keep your car and still get 5k.

Our 2011 Jetta JSW with 90k on it, the number is about 18k including the 5k payout built in to the buyback price. And why do the chart subtract $840 because we have a stick? I though those were MORE popular in the JSW's?

So the price is about 13.5k? Not really that great of a price considering the KBB value before sept. when i only had about 80k on the car.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

So should we be making sure we spent our Goodwill cards? I assume the payouts are in addition to what was already sent in the Goodwill package, but if I have a $500 dealer card sitting in my wallet I don't want VW to tell me they are taking that off my final payout since I still haven't used it 

Now that I re-calculated the Buyback we are just shy of $31k ($7600 in "hush money") which is about 3k more than we paid OTD inclusive of taxes and fees 13 months ago - this assumes she doesnt put more than 6000 miles between now and November-ish - surprisingly enough, if we can really keep her miles down to below 4500 additional for the next few months we can get another $500 as we're right on the cusp of one of the mileage adjustment tiers - its doubtful, but that would bring a max Buyback of $31.5k 

If VW opens up the leftover 15 GSW's for purchase at a steep discount I'd be stupid not to do it - if sticker of the '15's is $30k and the dealer is incentivized by VW to move them I would hope to get them for the 24-25k range max - in that scenario we'd have a shorter car note and less monthly payment and have a brand new car again - that, would probably be the only thing we couldn't pass up - especially if I could get one with Lighting Package as its the one thing our JSW didn't come with that I am prepared to buy (I cant stand driving halogen headlights at night) especially if we are keeping it for long term.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Ricky Bobby said:


> I've read that if the DPF's fail early (as in way less than the 120k they are "rated" for) that VW will goodwill most of the repair - one of the guys ended up paying 25% and it was like $500 I think - but from all I've spoken to people they rarely make it to 120k, mostly because of incomplete regens perhaps? I still wish there was a feature that would keep the engine running toward the regen to complete it and then would turn off automatically when finished.
> 
> However, just seeing how the engine is absolutely choked with all that emissions equipment in place, I don't think its healthy for long term turbo and engine life anyway - we most likely are moving out to a non-CARB state in the next 12 months, even if we stayed, we'd probably keep it - its going to be $7,100 or so in our pocket and anything that VW does in my opinion can be reversed with a tune and/or Rawtek exhaust if the VW "fix" is too intrusive - This is a whole other can of worms to open.
> 
> ...


Given the failure rate of the DPF, I don't think we are going to risk keeping the car. I mean, seems kind of dumb to risk that potential high dollar repair. I'm in NJ too and just got my inception this month, so good for another two years.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

AJB said:


> Given the failure rate of the DPF, I don't think we are going to risk keeping the car. I mean, seems kind of dumb to risk that potential high dollar repair. I'm in NJ too and just got my inception this month, so good for another two years.


Ah gotcha - yeah ours is good till '20 because we bought as a leftover 2014 last year - if I had to inspect every 2 years for emissions it would be a real hassle to reinstall the DPF and re-flash every time


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AJB said:


> And why do the chart subtract $840 because we have a stick? I though those were MORE popular in the JSW's?


That part confused me as well since every other option is an addition not a subtraction, it still works out the same really as they likely would have just taken that off base price and then made the DSG cars add 840.




> So the price is about 13.5k? Not really that great of a price considering the KBB value before sept. when i only had about 80k on the car.


13,500 sounds about right, a little low if it was a dsg and has a pan roof or nav, but really 13,500 was about retail at the time.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AJB said:


> Given the failure rate of the DPF, I don't think we are going to risk keeping the car. I mean, seems kind of dumb to risk that potential high dollar repair. I'm in NJ too and just got my inception this month, so good for another two years.


Honest question, do you feel the risk has changed in some way? There was always potential for the failure and I believe by 2011 it was well documented and publicly available that the replacement interval may be approximately 120k miles. 

You have a 2011 so a potential fix could actually involve replacing the current DPF resetting the miles on that hardware to 0. The warranty is extended to 10 years or 120k miles on your 2011 from initial purchase or 4 years 48k additional miles which ever is greater.


Basically there is still a risk, that risk has not necessarily increased (possibly reduced even), and whether it increased or not your are now covered longer.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

grawk said:


> opportunity cost


ok so calculate that for me please...

fyi, i already know that anything you calc is just a guess and intangible.

so yeah.
opportunity cost can be a thing. but until you make the moves, you don't really know what is gained or lost.
opportunity cost can also end up a loss, not a gain depending on what you do.

i have multiple cars. so to hold out a couple extra months to get another $500-1000 isn't a big deal.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

So would it be a swell idea to pay off the remaining loan on my TDI so I can have the title in my hands?

I owe a little over $9k on it so I'm leaning towards yes just to make the buyback process easier with no lien on it.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

mk3trekk said:


> probably a stupid question, but the amount we owe on existing loans is subtracted from the buyback amount when a check is cut to us right? Kinda sucks paying a car note on something I'm waiting to have bought back.
> 
> Certainly incentivizes vw to drag their feet for a few extra months.


what difference does it really make though?

say your buyback is $25k.
you owe $15k, they payoff your loan and give you $10k.

now.
say your buyback is $25k. vw drags their feet 6 months.
you owe $12k, they payoff your loan and give you $13k.

same, same... minus any interest that you paid on the loan. but that was the cost of you borrowing the money, not VW's responsibility to cover that cost.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

AJB said:


> Our 2011 Jetta JSW with 90k on it, the number is about 18k including the 5k payout built in to the buyback price. And why do the chart subtract $840 because we have a stick? I though those were MORE popular in the JSW's?


why not?
manual cars MSRP was lower than DSG cars. DSG is/was what an $1100 option?

YES there might have been SOME market increase for private party sales on the cars being manual. but honestly manuals are such a small amount of the overall market, even in TDIs, that thinking that a manual would command a premium isnt quite right.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

DUBPL8 said:


> So would it be a swell idea to pay off the remaining loan on my TDI so I can have the title in my hands?
> 
> I owe a little over $9k on it so I'm leaning towards yes just to make the buyback process easier with no lien on it.


i doubt it will matter. dealers are VERY used to taking in cars that have existing loans against them, and i have never had ANY issues ever trading in a car with a loan in the past.
the last dealer car i bought for myself, i traded in two cars with loans on them... still no issues even though there was a total of 3 cars and two loans involved in the final transaction.


----------



## Deezel Boy (Nov 26, 1999)

Dubveiser said:


> Personally if I had an affected TDI I would be taking the cash and jumping off ship ASAP.


WHY?!?!?!
For me and the wifes car, we're getting the "FIX", + almost $6K EACH and then taking the cars to get Malone stg 1 or 2, + DPF delete, + new stainless cat back!
Both of us will have about $3500 after the new Malone tune, exhaust, etc and be getting 50MPG, plus better HP/lb-ft! laughing all the way to the bank!!!! :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

dunhamjr said:


> i doubt it will matter. dealers are VERY used to taking in cars that have existing loans against them, and i have never had ANY issues ever trading in a car with a loan in the past.
> the last dealer car i bought for myself, i traded in two cars with loans on them... still no issues even though there was a total of 3 cars and two loans involved in the final transaction.


Got it, so I'll just save the $9k then.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Deezel Boy said:


> WHY?!?!?!
> For me and the wifes car, we're getting the "FIX", + almost $6K EACH and then taking the cars to get Malone stg 1 or 2, + DPF delete, + new stainless cat back!
> Both of us will have about $3500 after the new Malone tune, exhaust, etc and be getting 50MPG, plus better HP/lb-ft! laughing all the way to the bank!!!! :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


Honestly I was thinking the same with ours - we are at $7500 so its a very tempting - Rawtek + Malone + DSG tune and even buying the OEM bixenons I wanted for it we'd be left with a solid $4k - and can drive it till the wheels fall off -


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

DUBPL8 said:


> Got it, so I'll just save the $9k then.


I'm going to agree with the other poster saying that it will not be a problem dealing with the paperwork and that it won't really save you any time getting a pay out.

But you'd not be getting a pay out until sometime in nov at the earliest if they take their full 30 days allowed. That potentially is 4 more payments.

Not knowing where you are at with your loan or the rate you could be paying a significant amount each month towards interest not principal. Lets just say you are paying 500 a month with 400 going to principal and 100 interest you'd knock off 1600 from the loan but still be losing out on that 400 bucks. So if you had the cash it could save you a few bucks to just pay it off. 

Wouldn't do it just to make the process easier though.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

chris86vw said:


> I'm going to agree with the other poster saying that it will not be a problem dealing with the paperwork and that it won't really save you any time getting a pay out.
> 
> But you'd not be getting a pay out until sometime in nov at the earliest if they take their full 30 days allowed. That potentially is 4 more payments.
> 
> ...


Fair enough.

If it helps, my interest is at 1.9% and I pay $451 a month. Still worthwhile?


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Let's just hope the IRS doesn't make the buyback and associated $$$ around it as "income".... I doubt that will be the case, but just something that came to mind.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> Let's just hope the IRS doesn't make the buyback and associated $$$ around it as "income".... I doubt that will be the case, but just something that came to mind.


It's not taxed.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> Let's just hope the IRS doesn't make the buyback and associated $$$ around it as "income".... I doubt that will be the case, but just something that came to mind.


For people who are getting a buyback that exceeds what they spent to purchase the car, that sure looks like income to me. The rules for selling cars are very clear in the IRS code already: if you sell a car for more than you paid, the difference is taxed as ordinary income. So you buy a car for $27k, sell it for $29k, you made $2k in ordinary income and need to declare it on your taxes. Now will people actually do so? Who knows.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

DUBPL8 said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> If it helps, my interest is at 1.9% and I pay $451 a month. Still worthwhile?


this is something you can look up with your bank.

payment and percent doesnt get us quite there. but i doubt you pay $100/mo in interest at 1.9%


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

dunhamjr said:


> this is something you can look up with your bank.
> 
> payment and percent doesnt get us quite there. but i doubt you pay $100/mo in interest at 1.9%


haha mine's through VW Credit. On a closer look, YTD I've paid $103.26 so far in interest alone.

So yeaaaahhhhh, I'll stick with keeping the 9k in the bank.


----------



## LieutenantShinySides (May 4, 2007)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Honestly I was thinking the same with ours - we are at $7500 so its a very tempting - Rawtek + Malone + DSG tune *and even buying the OEM bixenons* I wanted for it we'd be left with a solid $4k - and can drive it till the wheels fall off -


I have the OEM set on my car I will be selling at some point - if interested.


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

Bird67 said:


> As many are now finding out by working through the calculations, the deal is not as great as it sounds. A 20% premium over trade-in doesn't even get to you the car's actual value. To replace the car you turn in you'll have to pay retail, plus taxes, registration, etc. After the exuberance of yesterday's announcement settles in, I think some owners will run the calculations and find they would prefer to keep their TDIs - enough that it could be hard for VW to reach the 85% buy-back threshold.


Wouldn't it have to be 85% buy-back or modify-to-meet-emissions-limits? Of course, the latter needs to have an approved fix, which is not certain.


----------



## fortyfive1911a1 (Aug 25, 2014)

I'm excited to see that I "may" be eligible for part of a cash payment even though I traded my 2014 TDI on a GLI in October of 2015. I never thought I'd be eligible for anything, so even having a chance is cool.

It does make sense though, since my trade in did take a blow to the value even in the weeks after the scandal broke.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

You'll now get half. Probably a pretty good penny. And the next idiot is stuck with the car. Like me. :laugh:


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> Honest question, do you feel the risk has changed in some way? There was always potential for the failure and I believe by 2011 it was well documented and publicly available that the replacement interval may be approximately 120k miles.
> 
> You have a 2011 so a potential fix could actually involve replacing the current DPF resetting the miles on that hardware to 0. The warranty is extended to 10 years or 120k miles on your 2011 from initial purchase or 4 years 48k additional miles which ever is greater.
> 
> ...


Thank for the response. Is VW really extending the warranty on the DPF for 10 years or 120k? And the fix might include a new DPF? Which should elimate it failing before 200k I would assume. My wife drive about 25k per year. We really don't want anohter car payment and fromt he 18k payout we might get, sure we could get another car, but it would be an econobox for sure at that money and there are zero issues with the tdi right now as its in perfect condition right now.

We are just weighing getting nearly KBB value for the car or holding onto it and driving it into the ground, but I certainly wouldn't want to spend 3k on a DPF repair within the next year if I don't have too. I mean its pretty much guaranteed that it will need replacement, so this just adds to the decision making process.

To answer you question, the only thing that changes is that we now have the option to get out of the car if we want.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Is anyone else planning on parking their car till they can take it in for the Buy-Back? Reading through the paperwork it seems to me that heaven forbid my car gets totaled between now and when I can sell it back, I am out a decent amount of coin (basically 9/15 NADA Value minus what your Insurance payout is minus the restitution portion).

Maybe I am missing something, but if my car were to get totaled seems it might cost me $5k+. My Buy-Back offer is $24,377 and when I ran KBB yesterday it was saying $11,500 which I am assuming is close to the insurance payout...


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

automobiliben said:


> Is anyone else planning on parking their car till they can take it in for the Buy-Back? Reading through the paperwork it seems to me that *heaven forbid my car gets totaled between now and when I can sell it back, I am out a decent amount of coin* (basically 9/15 NADA Value minus what your Insurance payout is).
> 
> Maybe I am missing something, but if my car were to get totaled seems it might cost me $5k+. My Buy-Back offer is $24,377 and when I ran KBB yesterday it was saying $11,500...


This is what scares me away from the train of thought of keeping the car until close to the 2018 and staying under the 12,500 mile/yr allowance. Sure, you coudl potentially drive the car for two more years and not impact your buyback value, but what if it gets totaled in that time?


----------



## LieutenantShinySides (May 4, 2007)

automobiliben said:


> Is anyone else planning on parking their car till they can take it in for the Buy-Back? Reading through the paperwork it seems to me that heaven forbid my car gets totaled between now and when I can sell it back, I am out a decent amount of coin (basically 9/15 NADA Value minus what your Insurance payout is minus the restitution portion).
> 
> Maybe I am missing something, but if my car were to get totaled seems it might cost me $5k+. My Buy-Back offer is $24,377 and when I ran KBB yesterday it was saying $11,500 which I am assuming is close to the insurance payout...


My car is parked and will not be driven until the monthly 1,042 mileage allowance decreases my current penalty another tier or two.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

AJB said:


> Thank for the response. Is VW really extending the warranty on the DPF for 10 years or 120k? And the fix might include a new DPF? Which should elimate it failing before 200k I would assume. My wife drive about 25k per year. We really don't want anohter car payment and fromt he 18k payout we might get, sure we could get another car, but it would be an econobox for sure at that money and there are zero issues with the tdi right now as its in perfect condition right now.
> 
> We are just weighing getting nearly KBB value for the car or holding onto it and driving it into the ground, but I certainly wouldn't want to spend 3k on a DPF repair within the next year if I don't have too. I mean its pretty much guaranteed that it will need replacement, so this just adds to the decision making process.
> 
> To answer you question, the only thing that changes is that we now have the option to get out of the car if we want.


I think VW has "goodwilled" DPF replacement for cars that it fails under 120k because that is what its supposed to last for (similar to a catalyst warranty) - the fix if anything would include a larger DPF but any "fix" would probably make it fill up faster - I don't think they can get a DPF on these cars that goes 200k without a hiccup, too many variables - so if anything they will probably warrant the DPF for 100k and then goodwill any failures prior - these are just my opinions.

If it were me - I'd call VW Customer care when the DPF takes a dump, and bitch at them until they replace under warranty and enjoy another 4 years of trouble free DPF or so, based on your mileage - I'm sure with the Dieselgate fiasco the last thing they are gonna tell you is a $3k DPF bill and tell you to pound sand when you ask for help, IMO


----------



## Jcanright (May 7, 2013)

So are they not looking at damages or condition? Just milage?


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

LieutenantShinySides said:


> My car is parked and will not be driven until the monthly 1,042 mileage allowance decreases my current penalty another tier or two.


The mileage adjustment is minute compared to what an insurance payout difference would be!

I wonder if there is any way to figure out how much your insurance company would offer you if the car got totaled...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

automobiliben said:


> Is anyone else planning on parking their car till they can take it in for the Buy-Back? Reading through the paperwork it seems to me that heaven forbid my car gets totaled between now and when I can sell it back, I am out a decent amount of coin (basically 9/15 NADA Value minus what your Insurance payout is minus the restitution portion).
> 
> Maybe I am missing something, but if my car were to get totaled seems it might cost me $5k+. My Buy-Back offer is $24,377 and when I ran KBB yesterday it was saying $11,500 which I am assuming is close to the insurance payout...


My thoughts exactly, it's a 10K gamble for us; im trying to tell the wife that, but she's not hearing it. 
I bought a CPO 12 in Feb of 2015 and still owe a decent amount.
If i were to get hit by one of the knucklehead drunk drivers i pass on my way to work on the overnights, i stand to lose the buyback and be upside down.
If i throw it in the garage and wait for buyback, i'll pay off the note and make 2-3K on top.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Jcanright said:


> So are they not looking at damages or condition? Just milage?


Not from any of the information that came out yesterday, just mileage and options.


VeeDubMan54 said:


> My thoughts exactly, it's a 10K gamble for us; im trying to tell the wife that, but she's not hearing it.
> I bought a CPO 12 in Feb of 2015 and still owe a decent amount.
> If i were to get hit by one of the knucklehead drunk drivers i pass on my way to work on the overnights, i stand to lose the buyback and be upside down.
> If i throw it in the garage and wait for buyback, i'll pay off the note and make 2-3K on top.


Luckily my wife didn't need too much convincing!

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

LieutenantShinySides said:


> My car is parked and will not be driven until the monthly 1,042 mileage allowance decreases my current penalty another tier or two.


Have you also cancelled the insurance and registration? If not, how much are you really saving considering that the mileage allowance per tier is only about $300? It would take at least 5 months to drop two tiers assuming you are just barely into the next higher tier.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

*Post-Fix Warranty*

Here's the warranty on the reworked components: It includes the fuel system, turbo, and long block:



> WARRANTY AND LEMON LAW PROTECTION FOR MODIFIED VEHICLES
> IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that Defendant shall provide an Emission Control System
> warranty and an Engine Long Block warranty (collectively, the “Extended Emissions Warranty”)
> for each Eligible Vehicle that undergoes an Approved Emissions Modification (“Modified
> ...


Edit: Is #5 real? * Every* fault the OBD senses except the transmission? Does that mean I can get my radio fixed?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AJB said:


> Thank for the response. Is VW really extending the warranty on the DPF for 10 years or 120k?


There was a list of components they were required to extend the warranty on, it may have been once a fix is available I am honestly blanking now and didn't get a chance to recheck it. The DPF was one of those parts along with the engine itself and even the turbo.

For gen 1 and 2 vehicles so your jetta and the passats, that was to 10 years or 120k miles from original purchase. Since some vehicles could be over that 120k miles those would be extended 4 years 48k miles. Cars that are at 110k miles I believe it said would be extended to the longer of the two which would again mean the 4 years 48k miles.

Since this was under a section about lemon law and warranty on modified vehicles it may only apply AFTER the repair, I need to go back and reread that part. 





> And the fix might include a new DPF?


Some vehicles the hardware is basically all one piece, others it can be sectioned as is. So if a fix even applies to say the low pressure EGR flapper in some cases that cannot be replaced and the whole DPF would be replaced. I was trying to think about it this morning if they would have dealer techs cut out existing cats post cat to upgrade parts on the vehicles with one piece systems but that seems unlikely from a liability stand point even if it would offer considerable savings. 

Another possibility is that the DPF would simply just need to be replaced with one that was larger or had other options for sensors, ports etc. On the gen 1 vehicles if there is a hardware solution it could likely include a DPF being swapped out.




> Which should elimate it failing before 200k I would assume.


Yeah random example if it had 100k now and it should in theory last 120k then I would think 200k before you had to possibly cover a repair on your own would be reasonably expected. :thumbup:


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

chris86vw said:


> There was a list of components they were required to extend the warranty on, it may have been once a fix is available I am honestly blanking now and didn't get a chance to recheck it. The DPF was one of those parts along with the engine itself and even the turbo.
> 
> For gen 1 and 2 vehicles so your jetta and the passats, that was to 10 years or 120k miles from original purchase. Since some vehicles could be over that 120k miles those would be extended 4 years 48k miles. Cars that are at 110k miles I believe it said would be extended to the longer of the two which would again mean the 4 years 48k miles.


Yes, the way I read it if the car has 110k miles on it at the time of retrofit with the new emissions hardware the warranty would be extended to 158k miles or 4 years after the date of installation or the 10 years from first in-service date, whichever is longer.


chris86vw said:


> Since this was under a section about lemon law and warranty on modified vehicles it may only apply AFTER the repair, I need to go back and reread that part.


I posted it for you, above in # 8564.


chris86vw said:


> Some vehicles the hardware is basically all one piece, others it can be sectioned as is. So if a fix even applies to say the low pressure EGR flapper in some cases that cannot be replaced and the whole DPF would be replaced. I was trying to think about it this morning if they would have dealer techs cut out existing cats post cat to upgrade parts on the vehicles with one piece systems but that seems unlikely from a liability stand point even if it would offer considerable savings.
> 
> Another possibility is that the DPF would simply just need to be replaced with one that was larger or had other options for sensors, ports etc. On the gen 1 vehicles if there is a hardware solution it could likely include a DPF being swapped out.


Yup, the DPF is #6 on the list.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> Here's the warranty on the reworked components: It includes the fuel system, turbo, and long block:
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Is #5 real? * Every* fault the OBD senses except the transmission? Does that mean I can get my radio fixed?


Yes 5 is real, no that doesn't mean the radio.

OBD in this case would simply mean engine diagnostics, surprised it is not clearly defined at the top since this is not the final accepted version it may be fixed later. They are saying they must cover any fault related to what they would find in the engine on board diagnostics, since VWs and some others will show faults related to the transmission they are clarifying that those would not be covered. 


EPA only refers to the OBD in it's role in engine/emissions diagnosis not the other systems which manufactures chose to make available through the same port. 

https://www3.epa.gov/obd/


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

interesting......several states also getting money from VW over this:

http://www.lasvegasnow.com/news/nevada-gets-5m-as-part-of-settlements-with-Volkswagen

*Nevada gets $5M as part of settlements with Volkswagen*

Nevada expects to get $5.3 million from Volkswagen to settle allegations that the carmaker cheated on emissions tests and put highly polluting cars on the road.

Attorney General Adam Laxalt announced the deal on Tuesday, the same day as news broke that Volkswagen could pay up to $15 billion in settlements to consumers and governmental agencies.

Volkswagen has admitted that some of its cars were programmed to turn on emissions controls during government lab tests and turn them off while on the road.

Consumers who have one of the 475,000 affected vehicles will get a restitution payment and can sell their cars back to the company.

The money coming to Nevada is separate from the consumer buyback program. Settlements are spent after legislative approval on causes that benefit the state.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

chris86vw said:


> Yes 5 is real, no that doesn't mean the radio.
> 
> OBD in this case would simply mean engine diagnostics, surprised it is not clearly defined at the top since this is not the final accepted version it may be fixed later. They are saying they must cover any fault related to what they would find in the engine on board diagnostics, since VWs and some others will show faults related to the transmission they are clarifying that those would not be covered.


OK, I get the radio, but this is saying that if the MAF fails and the OBD system alerts me, then the fault is covered under the warranty . . .


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> OK, I get the radio, but this is saying that if the MAF fails and the OBD system alerts me, then the fault is covered under the warranty . . .


I'm torn the wording is strange and not just for the confusing part about the radio that you point out. As is to me it would include the MAF if you had a fault for the MAF. The other part of me was wondering it it just meant maybe diagnostics were covered in order to encourage people to bring the car to the dealer since the EPA will be monitor VWs warranty repairs on these vehicles. But once they determine it is just a MAF for example that it would be on you. A MAF I think is covered under a PZEV warranty so in that sense maybe they do mean to include it. not sure. 

But since this is just a proposal and not final version I would say it isn't worth spending too much time on details like this one which will likely change in the final version or have more clarity.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

chris86vw said:


> I'm torn the wording is strange and not just for the confusing part about the radio that you point out. As is to me it would include the MAF if you had a fault for the MAF. The other part of me was wondering it it just meant maybe diagnostics were covered in order to encourage people to bring the car to the dealer since the EPA will be monitor VWs warranty repairs on these vehicles. But once they determine it is just a MAF for example that it would be on you. A MAF I think is covered under a PZEV warranty so in that sense maybe they do mean to include it. not sure.
> 
> But since this is just a proposal and not final version I would say it isn't worth spending too much time on details like this one which will likely change in the final version or have more clarity.


I dunno. But to stay with the above example, the MAF, technically, is an emissions component, so keeping the MAF on the warranty ensures the emissions will last the full additional 4 years/48k miles. So maybe they *do *mean to include all other OBD faults.


----------



## DrewSXR (Jul 26, 2000)

http://www.news.com.au/technology/i...o/news-story/d01e377a913bf5db77894f22f5fe9b68

*Volvo executive says Volkswagen diesel cheat was an ‘open secret’ in the car industry seven years ago*



> A SENIOR executive at Swedish car maker Volvo has claimed Volkswagen’s diesel emissions cheat was an “open secret” in the automotive industry seven years ago — more than five years before the scandal was exposed.
> 
> But no-one notified authorities because the existence of the software that sidestepped regulations could not be proven at the time.
> 
> ...


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

.LSinLV. said:


> interesting......several states also getting money from VW over this


And like with the tobacco settlement money being spent on anti-tobacco efforts, I'm sure that diesel money will be spent to improve the environment


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

Is the cutoff Dec 2017 which is 18 months which I read somewhere/
Or is it Dec 2018?


----------



## Lord Foul (Jun 7, 2013)

cpermd said:


> Is the cutoff Dec 2017 which is 18 months which I read somewhere/
> Or is it Dec 2018?


"The Claim Period shall run from entry of the Preliminary Approval Order until December 30, 2018. Class Members must submit a complete and valid Claim by no later than September 1, 2018, and, if eligible, shall have until December 30, 2018, to obtain their chosen remedy."

So you have until the beginning of September in 2018 to file a claim.


----------



## NH69_GP13 (Apr 2, 2016)

My buddy jumped ship awfully soon after the scandal broke and went into a Mazda. He got that set of goodies they offered at first, I would assume even though he no longer owns the car he's still entitled to settlement money. If not, I'd be pissed since he still suffered some sort of loss. I think he was planning on keeping the car until the dealer flashed his car without his signature ---

Don't quote me - but I've heard -- they can't flash the car unless you sign off on it - which to me is hard to believe -- I would have thought the government said "you HAVE to reflash all these cars" no ifs ands or buts. 

I'm sure someone can clarify on that.

but i think that's a big reason why he jumped ship on VW b/c of the car being flashed. 

wondering if there will be an aftermarket flash that will bring back the original fuel efficiency to some degree?


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

NH69_GP13 said:


> My buddy jumped ship awfully soon after the scandal broke and went into a Mazda. He got that set of goodies they offered at first, I would assume even though he no longer owns the car he's still entitled to settlement money. If not, I'd be pissed since he still suffered some sort of loss. I think he was planning on keeping the car until the dealer flashed his car without his signature ---
> 
> Don't quote me - but I've heard -- they can't flash the car unless you sign off on it - which to me is hard to believe -- I would have thought the government said "you HAVE to reflash all these cars" no ifs ands or buts.
> 
> ...


The original recall flash didn't really do anything to the cars at all... 

But anyway, yes, he can get half of the hush money - the other half goes to the new owner. 

And after the fix (whenever that might be, if ever) it's highly likely that the whole emission system is redone, new hardware, equipment and software... so if tuners wanted, they could re-engineer a solution. I wouldn't bet on it though - likely not enough of a market for it after the buy back. 

Better option is to not get the fix at all, to get a tune that is available now.


----------



## URSledgehammer (Oct 3, 2008)

For what its worth I have read most of this thread. Since a "deal" is in place what is the expectation for inspections and registration from here on out. For what it is worth I am in the very exciting state of Delaware. Our inspection is due in July. We really have no intention of keeping the 09 Jetta TDi w/78k.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

DrewSXR said:


> http://www.news.com.au/technology/i...o/news-story/d01e377a913bf5db77894f22f5fe9b68
> 
> *Volvo executive says Volkswagen diesel cheat was an ‘open secret’ in the car industry seven years ago*


Bob Lutz was on record saying nearly the same thing a while ago, that article isn't entirely the truth...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidki...pass-california-emissions-tests/#6adba8922e54

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

automobiliben said:


> Is anyone else planning on parking their car till they can take it in for the Buy-Back? Reading through the paperwork it seems to me that heaven forbid my car gets totaled between now and when I can sell it back, I am out a decent amount of coin (basically 9/15 NADA Value minus what your Insurance payout is minus the restitution portion).
> 
> Maybe I am missing something, but if my car were to get totaled seems it might cost me $5k+. My Buy-Back offer is $24,377 and when I ran KBB yesterday it was saying $11,500 which I am assuming is close to the insurance payout...


That's exactly what I did. Cleaned it out and parked it, put storage insurance on it today. Back into the 2005 V70! I verified with my insurance co (USAA) that if the car is totaled, they pay only current (read: depreciated) actual cash value. That could really cost me, since the settlement verbiage says if car is totaled between 6/28 and 9/16, you're OUT of the class. You get $0. Can't predict accidents so I'm not taking any chances. Next time it gets driven will be to the dealer to collect my check. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

DrewSXR said:


> http://www.news.com.au/technology/i...o/news-story/d01e377a913bf5db77894f22f5fe9b68
> 
> *Volvo executive says Volkswagen diesel cheat was an ‘open secret’ in the car industry seven years ago*


Bob Lutz from GM had a similar comments on VW: http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidkiley5/2016/02/16/bob-lutz-gm-knew-vws-vehicles-couldnt-pass-california-emissions-tests/#72c6eda12e54

FWIW, up until October of 2015*, in the United States the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) protected engine control software by law from being reversed engineered. Of course, there may not be much to physically stop an automaker with an army of software engineers from reverse engineering VW's software code. But if they had disclosed knowledge of the "defeat device" software to the EPA, they would've openly admitted they broke the law.

*Previously I thought the DMCA protections for ECUs were still in place today. However, ECUs have been granted an exemption at least in part because of dieselgate.

EDIT: Looks like automobiliben beat me to it. And for clarification, the DMCA applies to the US obviously, however, I'm not sure if there is an equivalent law in Europe.


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

So for those of you who still have their $500 dealership gift card and are planning on selling their car back to VW, what are you going to do with the gift card?


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Skizzle1111 said:


> So for those of you who still have their $500 dealership gift card and are planning on selling their car back to VW, what are you going to do with the gift card?


I have no clue! Audi dealership had a plastic R8 ride in car that I might get for my Daughter, and then whatever is left on Audi swag...










Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

jen_madcity said:


> That's exactly what I did. Cleaned it out and parked it, put storage insurance on it today. Back into the 2005 V70! I verified with my insurance co (USAA) that if the car is totaled, they pay only current (read: depreciated) actual cash value. That could really cost me, since the settlement verbiage says if car is totaled between 6/28 and 9/16, you're OUT of the class. You get $0. Can't predict accidents so I'm not taking any chances. Next time it gets driven will be to the dealer to collect my check.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wish that a lawyer or somebody who can read lawyer could interpret this. I had read Section 2.31 as meaning that if you totaled the car between 9/28/15 and whenever the buyback became available you would receive restitution. But looking at that again, Section 2.31 only appears to be describing who is a "Eligible Seller".

I think what we need is Section 4.2.2 which would appear to say that:

"Any owner whose Eligible
Vehicle was totaled and who consequently transferred title of his, her, or
its vehicle to an insurance company on or after the Opt-Out Deadline, but
before the end of the Claim Period, will be entitled to Owner Restitution
but not a Buyback payment. "

So I think that that is saying that even if you total your car, you are still entitled to the Restitution...

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/e...nt Agreement/Settlement Agreement 6.28.16.pdf


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Skizzle1111 said:


> So for those of you who still have their $500 dealership gift card and are planning on selling their car back to VW, what are you going to do with the gift card?


Find someone that needs an expensive VW repair (shouldn't be hard to find, it is a VW) and cut them a deal.


----------



## NH69_GP13 (Apr 2, 2016)

it would be funny if VW sent out henchmen in old beaters looking for TDIs to crash into and total out on the road......hahaha


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

NH69_GP13 said:


> it would be funny if VW sent out henchmen in old beaters looking for TDIs to crash into and total out on the road......hahaha


Best to garage that golden goose and make sure it doesn't see the light of day!


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

automobiliben said:


> I wish that a lawyer or somebody who can read lawyer could interpret this. I had read Section 2.31 as meaning that if you totaled the car between 9/28/15 and whenever the buyback became available you would receive restitution. But looking at that again, Section 2.31 only appears to be describing who is a "Eligible Seller".
> 
> I think what we need is Section 4.2.2 which would appear to say that:
> 
> ...


But I think that only applies to the dates of Sept 16 2016 thru 2018.... Between now and Sept is the dicey part. We need lawyers just to translate all this stuff for us. It's sooooo much information.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## NH69_GP13 (Apr 2, 2016)

jen_madcity said:


> But I think that only applies to the dates of Sept 16 2016 thru 2018.... Between now and Sept is the dicey part. We need lawyers just to translate all this stuff for us. It's sooooo much information.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



that's how it reads to me ---as long as it falls in between those dates you would get a portion of the cashola. in other words, make your claim and park the car and get as much as you can.

personally if i was in a TDI --- i'd keep the car, don't let anyone flash the car, and get as much out of VW as possible and have a smile. oh and any time the car goes into the dealer --- put a big orange sign hanging from the mirror --- If you reflash this car without my authorization - I'm suing your ****ing ass off. 

At least that's what I've been told --- that they can't flash the car w/o a signature. Which is shocking to me --- that the EPA isn't demanding it be done.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

jen_madcity said:


> But I think that only applies to the dates of Sept 16 2016 thru 2018.... Between now and Sept is the dicey part. We need lawyers just to translate all this stuff for us. It's sooooo much information.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Ahh, I see, since the Opt-Out Deadline hasn't come yet... 

I got the AC working in my beater truck, will be my ride for the foreseeable future...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## Lord Foul (Jun 7, 2013)

LieutenantShinySides said:


> My car is parked and will not be driven until the monthly 1,042 mileage allowance decreases my current penalty another tier or two.


Almost everyone taking the buyback will have their mileage penalty bumped up to a minimum of a $5100 bonus. See the "Further Adjustment" at the end of the mileage adjustment tables. The effective impact of that is that there is no mileage penalty. Park your car or put another 200,000 miles on it in the next two years. You'll get the exact same offer either way. The only people that need to worry about mileage bought their A3 TDIs in 2010-11 and have put less than 20,000 miles on them.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Lord Foul said:


> Almost everyone taking the buyback will have their mileage penalty bumped up to a minimum of a $5100 bonus. See the "Further Adjustment" at the end of the mileage adjustment tables. The effective impact of that is that there is no mileage penalty. Park your car or put another 200,000 miles on it in the next two years. You'll get the exact same offer either way. The only people that need to worry about mileage bought their A3 TDIs in 2010-11 and have put less than 20,000 miles on them.


You are missing Step 5, and going straight to Step 6.

That isn't correct at all. It says if your mileage adjustment makes your car value less than $5100 to follow the Further Adjustment.

EDIT: I just re-read Step 6 and see how you are getting this. The wording is terrible!!! I believe what it is trying to say is that if your Modification Adjustment/Amount is less than $5100 to follow the Further Adjustment (and then states that that applies to the buyback too). Once again, the verbiage is terrible and obviously a Engineer/Mathematician didn't write this...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*For one VW owner, satisfaction won't come easy*



> I spent much of Tuesday poring over news reports and court documents to figure out the options for my 2015 Volkswagen Sportwagen TDI under VW’s proposed $14.7 billion make-good for skirting emissions rules.
> 
> The takeaway: There won’t be a quick and tidy resolution to this mess for many VW owners.
> 
> ...


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

automobiliben said:


> You are missing Step 5, and going straight to Step 6.
> 
> That isn't correct at all. It says if your mileage adjustment makes your car value less than $5100 to follow the Further Adjustment.
> 
> EDIT: I just re-read Step 6 and see how you are getting this. The wording is terrible!!! I believe what it is trying to say is that if your Modification Adjustment/Amount is less than $5100 to follow the Further Adjustment (and then states that that applies to the buyback too). Once again, the verbiage is terrible and obviously a Engineer/Mathematician didn't write this...


I think it was written by someone from the IRS Forms division.

My interpretation is that it says when the Modification Adjustment is less than $5100, you subtract the Modification Adjustment from $5100 and that difference can be *added* to the buyback value. If you want to keep the car you get the minimum $5100 no matter what.

Why they didn't just say that baffles me . . . .


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW's biggest shareholder welcomes $15 billion U.S. settlement*



> STUTTGART (Bloomberg) -- Volkswagen Group's biggest shareholder said the $15.3 billion settlement with U.S. authorities over its cheating on emissions tests will remove a major roadblock toward a recovery from the scandal once final approval has been granted.
> 
> Porsche Automobil Holding SE, which owns 52 percent of Volkswagen's voting stock, said it remains "fully committed to its role as VW anchor shareholder," the company said at its annual shareholders meeting on Wednesday, a day after the settlement was announced.
> 
> ...


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

T5 Dave said:


> I think it was written by someone from the IRS Forms division.
> 
> My interpretation is that it says when the Modification Adjustment is less than $5100, you subtract the Modification Adjustment from $5100 and that difference can be *added* to the buyback value. If you want to keep the car you get the minimum $5100 no matter what.
> 
> Why they didn't just say that baffles me . . . .


Interesting that I haven't seen this posted yet...

http://jalopnik.com/heres-exactly-how-much-volkswagen-will-pay-you-for-your-1782745097

And this snippet particularly touches on it...



> It’s worth noting that even if you have the oldest, cheapest car, with the highest possible mileage, you’re guaranteed at least $5,100 in restitution. So, for example, if your “modification” total after mileage adjustments reads $3,000, you will either receive $5,100 (if you’re having your vehicle fixed), or an additional $2,100 on top of your “buyback” value from column one in the tables above.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

spockcat said:


> *For one VW owner, satisfaction won't come easy*


Was this written by Gersh Kuntzman? Lol - the guy should take his hush money and put agreed value on his insurance and just drive the pants off of it - you're right, there is nothing else for the price that ticks the boxes.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

NH69_GP13 said:


> Don't quote me - but I've heard -- they can't flash the car unless you sign off on it - which to me is hard to believe -- I would have thought the government said "you HAVE to reflash all these cars" no ifs ands or buts.


On a Federal level their powers are limited and he EPA has said since day one (maybe two) that no one will be forced to sell their car back or repair, however their state may require it for registration.

They only really have the power to compel VW to fix or buy back as many cars as possible which is why the 85% is in there.


----------



## jerzrunr (Jan 6, 2009)

*Insurance?*

Now that we have "almost" definitive buyout numbers that are way above our current car values, has anybody spoken to their insurance providers about having their car value (in case it got totalled) equal the buyout number? I wonder how the insurance providers will handle these 400K cars for the next year. 

Or is the story from them "tough luck - go park it or drive it and take the $15K risk"?


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

jerzrunr said:


> Now that we have "almost" definitive buyout numbers that are way above our current car values, has anybody spoken to their insurance providers about having their car value (in case it got totalled) equal the buyout number? I wonder how the insurance providers will handle these 400K cars for the next year.
> 
> Or is the story from them "tough luck - go park it or drive it and take the $15K risk"?


Insurance should have no problem putting your car on agreed value - however you may pay a few bucks more in your premiums for it


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

spockcat said:


> *For one VW owner, satisfaction won't come easy*





> Page 5 of the 225-page court document outlining VW’s settlement: “At the present time, there are no practical engineering solutions that would, without negative impact to vehicle functions and unacceptable delay, bring the 2.0 Liter Subject Vehicles into compliance with the exhaust emission standards.”


This is what I suspected. It just didn't make sense to me why VW would continue forward with the defeat device software on the 2015+ EA288 TDI's if they have the necessary emission equipment in place. My guess is they're trying to avoid releasing a "technical fix" affecting fuel economy, power, or durability, so they don't have to do another round of compensation. Or, perhaps they have a technical hurdle they can't clear.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

Why does VW get to choose their own punishment? As an owner, I am none too happy with the proposed settlement...


----------



## NH69_GP13 (Apr 2, 2016)

chris86vw said:


> On a Federal level their powers are limited and he EPA has said since day one (maybe two) that no one will be forced to sell their car back or repair, however their state may require it for registration.
> 
> They only really have the power to compel VW to fix or buy back as many cars as possible which is why the 85% is in there.


thanks for clarification :thumbup:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Phil Pugliese said:


> Why does VW get to choose their own punishment? As an owner, I am none too happy with the proposed settlement...


Um, there is this thing called negotiations. It is a procedure that takes place between multiple parties to bring a problem to a resolution. VW didn't choose their own punishment. If they had, they would have chosen nothing. 

If you don't like the proposed settlement, opt out. Sue them yourself or in a class action lawsuit.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Phil Pugliese said:


> Why does VW get to choose their own punishment? As an owner, I am none too happy with the proposed settlement...


This is both the largest class-action settlement in the history of America and the largest punishment for an environmental violation in history. That's not even counting how much they've spent in incentives to keep their sales at the mere -15% YoY relative to their peers or what it's going to cost them to rebuild the brand, if it even happens. The VW brand has been on a slide since 2011 or so with no sign of revival in sight. You can say you're not happy with the proposed settlement, but it's still the richest settlement in the history of class action lawsuits.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> This is both the largest class-action settlement in the history of America and the largest punishment for an environmental violation in history.


This. 

The settlement as it stands now is well above any sane resolution, which makes it funny to listen to people female puppy dog and moan about it.

Maybe distraught VW owners should use those settlement tickets to the show they don't want to watch to clear their head :laugh:


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

speaking of class actions, the one that msot people signed up with, Hagens Berman, and do we have to opt out now to cash in with VW directly? Or once you sell your car to VW you are out of class action automatically?



spockcat said:


> Um, there is this thing called negotiations. It is a procedure that takes place between multiple parties to bring a problem to a resolution. VW didn't choose their own punishment. If they had, they would have chosen nothing.
> 
> If you don't like the proposed settlement, opt out. Sue them yourself or in a class action lawsuit.


----------



## ICUH8N (Mar 31, 2003)

Surprised no one else has brought this up but 
What type of incentive will be given to remain a VW customer?? There was talks about huge savings for purchasing a NEW VW after all this is said and done.... I am really interested in a Golf R but I need a discount to justify the purchase in my mind. Otherwise I will take my money after paying off my car and get a used prius for cash.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> This is both the largest class-action settlement in the history of America and the largest punishment for an environmental violation in history. That's not even counting how much they've spent in incentives to keep their sales at the mere -15% YoY relative to their peers or what it's going to cost them to rebuild the brand, if it even happens. The VW brand has been on a slide since 2011 or so with no sign of revival in sight. You can say you're not happy with the proposed settlement, but it's still the richest settlement in the history of class action lawsuits.


I get Phil's frustration... I'd feel the same if I were in his shoes. But as far as the negotiated buyback value, VW (or whoever they appoint to manage buy backs) has to go by some sort of unbiased standard, this case NADA. It's true that TDI resale values have traditionally been high and that street transaction prices were above NADA. To expect that to always be the case is speculation.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

Silly_me said:


> This.
> 
> The settlement as it stands now is well above any sane resolution, which makes it funny to listen to people female puppy dog and moan about it.
> 
> Maybe distraught VW owners should use those settlement tickets to the show they don't want to watch to clear their head :laugh:


I can't believe how negative and cavalier you have been about this entire thing.

THat is all.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

ICUH8N said:


> Surprised no one else has brought this up but
> What type of incentive will be given to remain a VW customer?? There was talks about huge savings for purchasing a NEW VW after all this is said and done.... I am really interested in a Golf R but I need a discount to justify the purchase in my mind. Otherwise I will take my money after paying off my car and get a used prius for cash.


They already sent it to you. $500 Visa + $500 VW Dealer cash card.


----------



## Duvel (Mar 11, 2015)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Insurance should have no problem putting your car on agreed value - however you may pay a few bucks more in your premiums for it


Just called my Allstate agent and he was adamant they would absolutely not do that. If the car gets totaled they will pay market value, as in what it would cost you to buy the same vehicle from a dealer. So from how it seems to stand now, pray your diesel doesn't get totaled during the next couple of months.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Duvel said:


> Just called my Allstate agent and he was adamant they would absolutely not do that. If the car gets totaled they will pay market value, as in what it would cost you to buy the same vehicle from a dealer. So from how it seems to stand now, pray your diesel doesn't get totaled during the next couple of months.


Allstate may not have agreed value but many companies do - thats the benefit of going with a broker who has access to more than one insurance company - if you want to pay for an agreed value policy or even a policy which gives you ACV + 20% for example, they are out there -


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Duvel said:


> Just called my Allstate agent and he was adamant they would absolutely not do that. If the car gets totaled they will pay market value, as in what it would cost you to buy the same vehicle from a dealer. So from how it seems to stand now, pray your diesel doesn't get totaled during the next couple of months.


carmax has maintained vehicles on their lots and has continued to ask absurd prices for them. 

So if they are specifically saying dealer lot and not by any sort of blue or similar value, then you may actually not do that bad.


But as someone else I think just clarified agreed value is additional coverage you would need to add and pay for. google says they have agreed value coverage addons.


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

ICUH8N said:


> Surprised no one else has brought this up but
> What type of incentive will be given to remain a VW customer?? There was talks about huge savings for purchasing a NEW VW after all this is said and done.... I am really interested in a Golf R but I need a discount to justify the purchase in my mind. Otherwise I will take my money after paying off my car and get a used prius for cash.





AZGolf said:


> They already sent it to you. $500 Visa + $500 VW Dealer cash card.


Not really...that was just a fluffer for folks to keep calm and motor on until the actual settlement was reached.

I know what the poster above is saying, and I've been wondering the same thing. Once the cars start getting bought back or turned in, what is VW going to do to retain as much customer loyalty as they can? Special incentives for current owners/lessees to turn them into another VW seems entirely likely....if not downright necessary.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> Yes 5 is real, no that doesn't mean the radio.
> 
> OBD in this case would simply mean engine diagnostics, surprised it is not clearly defined at the top since this is not the final accepted version it may be fixed later. They are saying they must cover any fault related to what they would find in the engine on board diagnostics, since VWs and some others will show faults related to the transmission they are clarifying that those would not be covered.
> 
> ...


Question, should I cancel my VW Platinum extended warranty if I decide to keep the car? Are there things not covered by the new VW extended warranty?


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Phil Pugliese said:


> Why does VW get to choose their own punishment? As an owner, I am none too happy with the proposed settlement...


They negotiated the agreement, left completely up to them they would have saved their $15 billion, given current owners nothing and discounted all new cars by $5k and watched them fly off the lots. People are irritated but reality is discount the cars enough and they would have no problem selling them and it would be far cheaper and less of a hassle.

So after the $500, $500 dealer credit, buyback proposal and above this payment what do you think would be reasonable?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Maximum_Download said:


> I can't believe how negative and cavalier you have been about this entire thing.


Help me understand this; the largest consumer windfall in history is hashed out in record time to compensate consumers whose vehicles are fully operational and safe....... and I'm a bad guy for face-palming those that think it isn't enough and the settlement is, somehow, unfair?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

And yet Americans are still whining.
*
Why VW owners get $10,000 in U.S., but a bit of pipe in the EU*



> BERLIN (Bloomberg) -- If you own a Volkswagen with a diesel engine in the U.S., the company will buy back your car and give you as much as $10,000. If you drive one in Europe, you may only get a piece of pipe.
> 
> As part of Volkswagen Group's settlement of U.S. civil claims stemming from the emissions scandal, the company pledged as much as $10 billion for some 500,000 car owners. The 8.5 million customers in Europe may only get an hour-long visit to the dealer to have their engines repaired with a tube that regulates air flow or a software update.
> 
> ...


----------



## jhinsc (Jul 9, 2014)

VW had a part in choosing what they will pay, but the EPA and courts also had say to a great extent. It appears from what the settlement terms will likely be if it stays intact, and that the EPA/courts made it clear that it's very likely they will never be able to approve a "fix" that will meet emission standards. They had to come to a solution that all parties could accept. VW early on accepted full responsibility (without pointing fingers at who/whom was responsible) and knew in order to get their reputation back, they will have to pay. Also, while the amount may not satisfy everyone, it's likely the best outcome we can expect. The settlement had to be financially very painful, yet not high enough for VW to declare bankruptcy - which could leave us all with nothing. Fortunately, the case is being resolved in Calif., and not another state where they might have been given more leniency. Me personally, I always like to have a new car, so the fact I'll be able to get into another one at a much lower cost if a plus for me. A positive out of all of this is VW will likely come out of this as a better, more competitive, and more environmentally conscious company.


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

Phil Pugliese said:


> Why does VW get to choose their own punishment? As an owner, I am none too happy with the proposed settlement...


From the cited article: "VW’s plan is to make them “whole again,” but how? By offering them clean trade-in value for their cars — not private party or retail, but the lowest of the three."

Exactly. This is what I've posted here, and been hooted down for doing so. VW's base for calculating your TDI's value is well below its actual market value as of 9/1/15. Trade-in is not market value. Much of the money VW adds on top just gets you to the market value they should have used in the first place. 

This is among the oldest retail tricks in the book. 1. Put an artificially high price on an item; 2. draw a red line through that artificially high price; 3. write a lower "sale" price instead, with that "sale" price being close to what you would normally sell for anyway. It's the same for dishwashers, laptop computers, clothes, shoes and cars. 

Before I get hooted down again, I am NOT SAYING that TDI owners are getting hosed, or that it's a bad deal, or that TDI owners deserve more. It may still be, and I think is, a good deal for a few, for some, or for all. What I am saying, instead, is that the headlines and superficial reporting is wrong - VW is NOT proposing to give people what their TDI's were worth before September plus 20% plus a premium. It's not true. 

I guess my beef is a lot less about the settlement than the way it is being represented. I hate anything that supports the notion generally that trade-in value is the car's value. By definition, trade-in value is below market value so that dealer has room for resale profit.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Phil Pugliese said:


> Why does VW get to choose their own punishment? As an owner, I am none too happy with the proposed settlement...


You aren't happy with the proposed settlement? Why?

Maybe there's a clue in what you wrote:

"How did VW set these buybacks? It used pre-scandal prices from NADA, a reputable source. But we are dealing with a car that, like its MPG ratings, commands higher numbers than typical values."

Oh, I see now. You think the NADA prices somehow don't account for "a car that, like its MPG ratings, commands higher numbers than typical values."

What are you talking about? The NADA prices most certainly do account for the TDI's MPG ratings. Why on earth do you think NADA would ignore MPG when assessing the market value of a car?

Your unhappiness seems completely unfounded.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

jhinsc said:


> Fortunately, the case is being resolved in Calif., and not another state where they might have been given more leniency.


This was federal district court that just so happened to be in CA because I believe it said that this is the state with the largest number of whiney bitches yielding clean burning torches. 

He was appointed by Clinton. While I doubt the outcome would have changed much with a different judge if we had a President, we'll call him captain coal mine, that appointed the judge who happened to get the case that was pro business and gave zero Fs about the environment but was still appointed to a seat in CA the outcome could have been entirely different.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

To everyone pissing and moaning about the settlement, can we just claim their cash and split it up amongst all on TCL? Seriously, this deal seems MORE than fair.


----------



## Parklife (Feb 23, 1999)

Silly_me said:


> Help me understand this; the largest consumer windfall in history is hashed out in record time to compensate consumers whose vehicles are fully operational and safe....... and I'm a bad guy for face-palming those that think it isn't enough and the settlement is, somehow, unfair?


Well, yes. 

You have no dog in this fight, or haven't mentioned your heretofore unknown TDI ownership to this point, yet have the most posts of anyone in this thread. (link here) Yet you continue to jump around making snide little remarks about everyone affected, or (going back far enough) the actual environmental impact of this. Your behavior can best be likened to the theatrics of Heath Ledger's Joker after the truck-flipping scene, or a particularly outrageous drag queen foiling the arrest attempt of a squad of Keystone Kops, or maybe just that one kid who keeps saying, "I'm not touching you! I'm not touching you!" All while being pleased with yourself for doing it. 

So us owners use this thread to read about an issue that affects us. You use it to post things that score points with your NPboards buddies. So own it, okay? Don't act surprised someone called you on exactly what you have been doing. At least have the balls to accept your actions instead of indulging in whiny victimology.

Those who own gas-powered VWs (such as Max up there) who have been roundly rogered by their loss of market vaualtion by VW's malfeasance yet have no recourse have a right to speak and be heard.


----------



## sohccammer427 (Mar 24, 2009)

Well for me, here's my plan.

Drive more, worry less. We all have until 9/1/2018 to decide whether or not to sell it back. If you drive around 12,500 miles a year the mileage deduction is the just a small fee for using the car. If I was concerned about it being totaled, I guess I'd not drive at all in fear of being killed. I'm just going to wait for what kind of fix they have for a '15 EA288. If it's acceptable I'll do the fix and take the sentiment payout.

Heck here in NC, not being a CARB state I may not have to do anything but as for now I'll wait and see what the fix entails.


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

*And in other news, VW says it can fix the 3.0*

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...n-fix-85000-polluting-3.0-liter-u.s.-vehicles

"VW lawyer Robert Giuffra said the automaker believed the 3.0-liter vehicles were fixable and that the fix will not be "complicated" or negatively impact the vehicles' performance."

If it isn't complicated and it won't negatively impact vehicle performance, why was it necessary to cheat in the first place?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

sohccammer427 said:


> Well for me, here's my plan.
> 
> Drive more, worry less. We all have until 9/1/2018 to decide whether or not to sell it back. If you drive around 12,500 miles a year the mileage deduction is the just a small fee for using the car. If I was concerned about it being totaled, I guess I'd not drive at all in fear of being killed. I'm just going to wait for what kind of fix they have for a '15 EA288. If it's acceptable I'll do the fix and take the sentiment payout.
> 
> Heck here in NC, not being a CARB state I may not have to do anything but as for now I'll wait and see what the fix entails.


Could be worse. You could be playing Russian Roulette with with a 50/50 Takata airbag in a 2001-2003 Honda.


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

Parklife said:


> Well, yes.
> 
> You have no dog in this fight, or haven't mentioned your heretofore unknown TDI ownership to this point, yet have the most posts of anyone in this thread. (link here) Yet you continue to jump around making snide little remarks about everyone affected, or (going back far enough) the actual environmental impact of this. Your behavior can best be likened to the theatrics of Heath Ledger's Joker after the truck-flipping scene, or a particularly outrageous drag queen foiling the arrest attempt of a squad of Keystone Kops, or maybe just that one kid who keeps saying, "I'm not touching you! I'm not touching you!" All while being pleased with yourself for doing it.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

spockcat said:


> Could be worse. You could be playing Russian Roulette with with a 50/50 Takata airbag in a 2001-2003 Honda.


I am playing Russian Roulette in my 2003 BMW X5 - still waiting for Takata to get their **** together lol


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Parklife said:


> Well, yes.






Parklife said:


> You have no dog in this fight, or haven't mentioned your heretofore unknown TDI ownership to this point,


I was not aware that we are only allowed to post in threads that directly pertained to us. 



Parklife said:


> yet have the most posts of anyone in this thread. (link here)


Post number 333 bishes!



Parklife said:


> Yet you continue to jump around making snide little remarks about everyone affected,


Only those _really_ affected.



Parklife said:


> or (going back far enough) the actual environmental impact of this. Your behavior can best be likened to the theatrics of Heath Ledger's Joker after the truck-flipping scene, or a particularly outrageous drag queen foiling the arrest attempt of a squad of Keystone Kops, or maybe just that one kid who keeps saying, "I'm not touching you! I'm not touching you!" All while being pleased with yourself for doing it.


So, I'm toying with car loungers with diminished mental faculties? I do apologize for that, it is sometimes difficult to gauge such things over the internet.



Parklife said:


> So us owners use this thread to read about an issue that affects us.


Per the sticky there is no rule against starting a TDI support group thread. 



Parklife said:


> You use it to post things that score points with your NPboards buddies.


They don't own TDIs and know they have no right to post here.



Parklife said:


> So own it, okay? Don't act surprised someone called you on exactly what you have been doing. At least have the balls to accept your actions


Oh honey, I own it and work it.



Parklife said:


> instead of indulging in whiny victimology.


I thought you were telling me to leave the TDI owners alone 



Parklife said:


> Those who own gas-powered VWs (such as Max up there) who have been roundly rogered by their loss of market vaualtion by VW's malfeasance yet have no recourse have a right to speak and be heard.


He doesn't own a TDI either!


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> Could be worse. You could be playing Russian Roulette with with a 50/50 Takata airbag in a 2001-2003 Honda.




My A3 is on the list of possibly equipped.. maybe it was definitely? I forget but either way right now one of the crash sensors is out anyway (replacement rad support didn't have the correct threaded inserts) so they probably won't go off. 

So what does that mean for those of us with multiple TDIs and a Takata equipped vehicle 

Wonder if any of the 8P A3s Tdis got takata bags, two in one!! Those guys really don't want to crash


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

sohccammer427 said:


> Well for me, here's my plan.
> 
> Drive more, worry less. We all have until 9/1/2018 to decide whether or not to sell it back. If you drive around 12,500 miles a year the mileage deduction is the just a small fee for using the car. If I was concerned about it being totaled, I guess I'd not drive at all in fear of being killed. I'm just going to wait for what kind of fix they have for a '15 EA288. If it's acceptable I'll do the fix and take the sentiment payout.


This is sort of what I'm thinking now (although my attitude changes from day to day).

I'm thinking wait and see what happens with the 2016 TDIs stuck at port and if VW fixes them and just sells them at a good discount. Then I'll consider selling back my '11 TDI for another VW then.

The problem with VW's current 2016 gas Golf and GTI offerings (and also the proposed 2017 ones too) are:
1. No 2016 1.8T Golf offered with both lighting package, driver's assistance, and manual trans.
2. 2017 Golf 1.8T Wolfsburg Edition looks OK, has MT availability, but no lighting package.
3. No 2016 GTI available with plaid cloth interior (S only has this) and lighting package (rare) and driver assistance package (N/A on 'S').
4. 2017 GTI 'S' gets driver assistance package as a S.O. option (OK) but loses lighting package enitrely.:thumbdown:
5. 2017 GTI 'Sport' gains lighting package as standard but has no driver assistance package available (WTF?):thumbdown:

The only thing that ticks my boxes are 2016 Golf TDI MTs with lighting and driver's assistance, particularly a SEL model with the nicer interior trim.

And if I wait, there may be other interesting developments for 2018MY from VW (facelifted Golf and GTI? New Tiguan?), or possibly other manufacturers (next Hyundai Elantra GT, possibly N-spec?).


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

gti_matt said:


> This is sort of what I'm thinking now (although my attitude changes from day to day).
> 
> I'm thinking wait and see what happens with the 2016 TDIs stuck at port and if VW fixes them and just sells them at a good discount. Then I'll consider selling back my '11 TDI for another VW then.
> 
> ...


Suggestion: Buy a car that has everything you want (i.e. Drivers Assistance) except the headlights, and retrofit the lighting package headlights afterwards. Adding the headlights on later is feasible (same cannot be said of the DA pkg).


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

BUJonathan said:


> Suggestion: Buy a car that has everything you want (i.e. Drivers Assistance) except the headlights, and retrofit the lighting package headlights afterwards. Adding the headlights on later is feasible (same cannot be said of the DA pkg).


Kinda thought about that. Still is kind pricey though for factory HIDs to get everything together.

There's also the Helix headlamps that are halogen, drop-in easily enough, aren't astronomical in price, but at least resemble Golf R lamps and don't look like "I'm a 2003 Honda Fit!" like the factory Mk7 VW halogen units. But they're still halogen and I'm not a big fan of dropping HIDs in a spot designed for halogen bulbs.

I guess really there's just no big rush to sell back on the first day buybacks begin. I figure if I wait, I might have some more options to think about.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

BUJonathan said:


> Suggestion: Buy a car that has everything you want (i.e. Drivers Assistance) except the headlights, and retrofit the lighting package headlights afterwards. Adding the headlights on later is feasible (same cannot be said of the DA pkg).


Its feasible but still about $1500 when all is said and done - we got our 2014 JSW as a leftover and its the one thing its missing (SEL trim with Nav and Pano roof) - I will NOT make the same mistake on another car, especially with the Dieselgate limbo I haven't wanted to invest in the OEM xenons yet as I didnt know what we were going to do -

And the Helix's may look good, but trust me, the OEM xenons have superior lighting output.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> My A3 is on the list of possibly equipped.. maybe it was definitely? I forget but either way right now one of the crash sensors is out anyway (replacement rad support didn't have the correct threaded inserts) so they probably won't go off.
> 
> So what does that mean for those of us with multiple TDIs and a Takata equipped vehicle
> 
> Wonder if any of the 8P A3s Tdis got takata bags, two in one!! Those guys really don't want to crash


I think you missed the point. Apparently, the 2001-2003 Honda airbags are much worse, much more likely to injure or kill. than most of the other Takata airbags. They are said to have nearly a 50% chance of doing so. 

Our 2011 BMW is under a Takata recall too. I think we got the letter 2 years ago. We were just at the dealer last week. Still no parts for the fix. If it was a 50/50 chance like the Honda's recalled, I would immediately sell the car. (sorry to bring a different subject into this thread)


----------



## Maximum_Download (May 17, 2010)

Silly_me said:


> I was not aware that we are only allowed to post in threads that directly pertained to us.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You don't get it. Unlike you, most people in here understand this was a colossal f**k up on VWs part that hits them right in the pocketbook, not to mention the lack of trust AND credibility VW is going to have to deal with. That's even before we get to the meat of the problem - that they did it cynically and willingly, and broke some major global laws in the process.

And I am not sure if you've bought a new car anytime recently, but I seem to recall you gloating about buying used luxury cars. So crap like "resale value" means nothing to you.

Full disclosure: Parklife is right, I am not directly affected by the TDI scandal like he is. But my resale value definitely is, and in some ways, I am even more f***ed than the TDI guys are because I AM affected, but VW is doing nothing to help me nor even acknowledge that their F up also affects gas models. And while I am leasing and have mitigated resale value risk, it means I cannot trade up to the next ride anytime soon, which is a disadvantage to me right now. I would never have leased the thing in the first place had I known this would have happened. But I am also speaking up because I feel sorry for people who BOUGHT things like base model Jettas and Passats. THey are also victims here, and their silence is deafening.

So please....if you don't think this is such a big deal, STFU and let the rest of us sort it out on our own. If in fact I am right and you only buy used cars, then who cares what you think?

This is not funny, and it's not a laughing matter. And frankly I am getting tired of reading posts from you laughing and demeaning something that has no real bearing on you whatsoever.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

I will agree that buyback value is a bit low. Sure with the $5100 added on top it great, but you can a bit higher. still get the 5k and keep your car so that really a wash. If they wanted the cars off the road, the value should be higher. Plus you should not be penalized for adding miles after sept. 2015. Its not our fault that VW is taking what wil be like 12 months to move this along.


----------



## URSledgehammer (Oct 3, 2008)

spockcat said:


> I think you missed the point. Apparently, the 2001-2003 Honda airbags are much worse, much more likely to injure or kill. than most of the other Takata airbags. They are said to have nearly a 50% chance of doing so.
> 
> Our 2011 BMW is under a Takata recall too. I think we got the letter 2 years ago. We were just at the dealer last week. Still no parts for the fix. If it was a 50/50 chance like the Honda's recalled, I would immediately sell the car. (sorry to bring a different subject into this thread)


Strange enough the minute after I read this a news report came on and according to the federal government only to drive these vehicles to either have them fixed or sold. And now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

And to believe this is a low ball offer is absurd. Could VW have done better, sure. They are still a company that must have the interest of making money. Who is to say what they do on the buyback and subsequent next car purchase. Again this is VW you all know the story of dealing with the cars, the company and the dealerships none of them top the list in ownership satisfaction.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Maximum_Download said:


> If in fact I am right and you only buy used cars, then who cares what you think?


Damn, not only do you have to have a TDI to post in this thread, you have to have bought it new!



Maximum_Download said:


> And while I am leasing


You only lease gasoline VWs, who cares what you think?


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

spockcat said:


> I'd roll in on steelies and every aftermarket or dealer installed accessory stripped off the car. You could probably roll in on bald tires and the dealer wouldn't care. It isn't going to be his problem.


This. Actually is my plan too... I was going to repaint my bumper... lots of chips from highway driving... but if condition is thrown out the window... I literally couldn't care less about it.



AJB said:


> I will agree that buyback value is a bit low. Sure with the $5100 added on top it great, but you can a bit higher. still get the 5k and keep your car so that really a wash. If they wanted the cars off the road, the value should be higher. Plus you should not be penalized for adding miles after sept. 2015. Its not our fault that VW is taking what wil be like 12 months to move this along.


You are only penalized for mileage above 1000 or so miles a month. Not the greatest of options, but I'm still quite pleased that they added that piece in.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> I think you missed the point.


Missed nothing, you missed the guy with the X5 commenting though, if you wanted to make sure you went back and told him that he missed the point too :thumbup:

You posted about something that had absolutely nothing to do with this, I tied it back in and pointed out that there are possibly TDI owners that could be injured from the defective bags and lose out on a proper settlement if there really is this window that would exclude owners from this class all in the same class.

Since people were talking about not driving their TDIs so that they wouldn't risk getting paid, I just made a joke about my TDI backup is another tdi and the backup to that has a defective airbag (their other two don't have AC and it's hot out!!)


----------



## ICUH8N (Mar 31, 2003)

Didn't know they would penalize for the mileage should have rented a car to drive home 3 times last year:banghead:


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

chris86vw said:


> Missed nothing, you missed the guy with the X5 commenting though, if you wanted to make sure you went back and told him that he missed the point too :thumbup:
> 
> You posted about something that had absolutely nothing to do with this, I tied it back in and pointed out that there are possibly TDI owners that could be injured from the defective bags and lose out on a proper settlement if there really is this window that would exclude owners from this class all in the same class.
> 
> Since people were talking about not driving their TDIs so that they wouldn't risk getting paid, I just made a joke about my TDI backup is another tdi and the backup to that has a defective airbag (their other two don't have AC and it's hot out!!)


Shhh don't tell him about me lol - however, I will add that I'm 99% certain the JSW's are included on the recent wave of VW Takata recalls as well


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Shhh don't tell him about me lol - however, I will add that I'm 99% certain the JSW's are included on the recent wave of VW Takata recalls as well


I thought so too actually but hadn't bothered to check since that car has been driven under 1000 miles since this scandal broke, probably closer to 600. 

Since age and moisture are a factor and that is just about 5 years old while the other one is 11 years old, slightly more concerned with the A3. 


In general it is all kind of scary though, I try not to think about it.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

chris86vw said:


> I thought so too actually but hadn't bothered to check since that car has been driven under 1000 miles since this scandal broke, probably closer to 600.
> 
> Since age and moisture are a factor and that is just about 5 years old while the other one is 11 years old, slightly more concerned with the A3.
> 
> ...


I'm actually surprised that the airbags, especially in the most hot/humid areas, aren't just disconnected. No point in having a 'safety' device go off at low speed that could kill you with shrapnel through the jugular.

You just have to hope to hell the teen texting while driving doesn't hit you head on. . . .

Still, I'd think that as long as the seat belt is on, there'd be less danger without the airbag than with it connected (until the recall was done)

It's either that or wear a neck shield every time you hop in the car . . .


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Shhh don't tell him about me lol - however, I will add that I'm 99% certain the JSW's are included on the recent wave of VW Takata recalls as well


They are. I got my 'your car might have a wonky airbag, but we can't fix it yet so don't get in an accident' letter a while ago...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> I'm actually surprised that the airbags, especially in the most hot/humid areas, aren't just disconnected. No point in having a 'safety' device go off at low speed that could kill you with shrapnel through the jugular.


The airbag is what qualifies as a passive restraint, it is why we don't have those stupid auto belts anymore. 

Disabling them, due to it being a required passive restraint, is illegal as far as I'm aware. You can apparently apply for authorization to disable them if some conditions are met, this is not one of them. 


Any airbag defective or not has a chance of injuring or killing the occupant, these are just more likely but as far as I'm aware still overall safer than no airbag in almost every application but these noted Hondas.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

I have not read the entirety of the settlement documents, however, I have read this "Owners whose Eligible Vehicle was totaled and who consequently transferred title
of their vehicle to an insurance company after the Opt-Out Deadline, but before the end of the Claim Period, will be offered Owner Restitution but not a Buyback." The significance of that sentence is the conjuctive, i.e. "and who consequently transferred title of their vehicle to an insurance company...." Thus, my reading of it is that if you total your car but don't take the insurance carrier's payout, you could still get the buyout amount from VW. 

I will note, I have not ready all of the proposed settlement documents and there may be other provisions in the documents which contradict or explain that sentence further. Additionally, while I am admitted to numerous state Bar associations, I am not admitted in all jurisdictions and am not admitted in California. Thus, there may be case law or other statutory provisions which may relate to this provision. Also, I will note that I am not a judge nor the presiding judge in this matter, thus my opinion is irrelevant to what might ultimately happen. 

The foregoing post and its opinion should not be construed as legal advice nor should it be considered to be the creation of an attorney-client relationship. Readers of this post should not act or refrain from acting on the basis of any of the opinions included in this post without seeking the appropriate legal or other professional advice on the particular facts and circumstances at issue from an attorney licensed in your particular jurisdiction or the appropriate jurisdiction.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

tomski12 said:


> Thus, my reading of it is that if you total your car but don't take the insurance carrier's payout, you could still get the buyout amount from VW.


That is in theory a work around, depending on the other wording though.

(will look up later if someone hasn't)

In another section it specifically states operating vehicle and in either the same or another says running under its own power. This may (and sort of have to side with it) be something for VW to not have to cover the people like those in this thread intentionally withholding repairs while they waited for an answer. It sucks but if your timing belt snapped because you refused to fix it, that's not on VW and also a good chance it was due long before the news broke.


Edit also that is not the window of time people are concerned with.

People are concerned with the wording that says you are basically SOL if you total your car from 6/28 through the end of the opt out period.


----------



## Lord Foul (Jun 7, 2013)

T5 Dave said:


> I think it was written by someone from the IRS Forms division.
> 
> My interpretation is that it says when the Modification Adjustment is less than $5100, you subtract the Modification Adjustment from $5100 and that difference can be *added* to the buyback value. If you want to keep the car you get the minimum $5100 no matter what.
> 
> Why they didn't just say that baffles me . . . .


Sort of. The same calculation is done if you keep the car or take the buyback. If you keep the car, the mileage adjustment can never exceed $5100, so you always get $5100. If you take the buyback, there are a few cases involving old cars with low mileage where the mileage adjustment can be over $5100, but it'll be rare, so you almost always get $5100.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

https://byebyetdi.us/select.php

From tdiclub's forum on the scandal, a payout calculator


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

that works well - I get an additional $500 on my Buyback if my wife keeps under 5100 miles added until November


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

grawk said:


> https://byebyetdi.us/select.php
> 
> From tdiclub's forum on the scandal, a payout calculator



This doesn't seem to take into account step 6 and "further adjustment" in the bottom box of the mileage charts, does it?


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

My 2010 JSW stick/roof 144K...$12,900. If it was a 2011...$15,300 to get a comparable (approx) $1K difference to go up a year...I could have 190K miles on a 2011...HOW IS THIS HAPPENING to 2010's!!!!????!!!!! 

My 2010 Should be a $14,500 car in this program....at trade in...but it still should be off of Retail, not Trade In.


----------



## Lord Foul (Jun 7, 2013)

Phil Pugliese said:


> My 2010 JSW stick/roof 144K...$12,900. If it was a 2011...$15,300 to get a comparable (approx) $1K difference to go up a year...I could have 190K miles on a 2011...HOW IS THIS HAPPENING to 2010's!!!!????!!!!!
> 
> My 2010 Should be a $14,500 car in this program....at trade in...but it still should be off of Retail, not Trade In.


Read the "Further Adjustment" section of the mileage adjustment tables. It's hard to understand, but it's important. You're not subtracting anything for your 144K. You're instead adding $5100, and getting over $20K for a seven year old car worth nowhere near that.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

Lord Foul said:


> Read the "Further Adjustment" section of the mileage adjustment tables. It's hard to understand, but it's important. You're not subtracting anything for your 144K. You're instead adding $5100, and getting over $20K for a seven year old car for a car worth nowhere near that.


The adjustment in step six is only if your total compensation falls below the $5100 mark, NOT if your mileage adjustment is under $5100.

Phil's estimate is accurate.

https://byebyetdi.us/view.php?region_id=22&car_id=44&miles=144000&month_offset=13&options%5B528%5D=on&options%5B980%5D=on


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Phil Pugliese said:


> .HOW IS THIS HAPPENING to 2010's!!!!????!!!!! [/COLOR]


If you look at the cart it is not specific to 2010s, there is a Huge jump odd years and small jump even years except t 2014

Just using mountain on a JSW and not adjusting 

09 13,817
10 15,827 (~2000)
11 19,067 (~3200)
12 20,747 (~1700)
13 24,227 (~3500)
14 27,557 (~3300)


My 2012 is actually more screwed then your 2010.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

spockcat said:


> This doesn't seem to take into account step 6 and "further adjustment" in the bottom box of the mileage charts, does it?


When I tried it for the 2009, it did apply step 6 to the buyback value.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Oh lord, this again about Step 6, I give up! The calculator is accurate. The value of the car is already inflated 20% over NADA from Table 1A. You don't add an additional $5100 on top of that (unless your value with the mileage adjustment is <$5100...which is the point of Step 6...)...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

grawk said:


> https://byebyetdi.us/select.php
> 
> From tdiclub's forum on the scandal, a payout calculator


That is a fantastic tool, and should probably get its own sticky on the forum or something.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> That is a fantastic tool, and should probably get its own sticky on the forum or something.


That is cool. As for month, what do you choose? 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

2ohgti said:


> That is cool. As for month, what do you choose?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Most articles are saying October at the earliest, so that is why October is the earliest possible month. The paper work says that you have to make an appointment at the Dealership, so all depends on when they can get you in. Not sure if they will have quotas each month or what...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

automobiliben said:


> Most articles are saying October at the earliest, so that is why October is the earliest possible month. The paper work says that you have to make an appointment at the Dealership, so all depends on when they can get you in. Not sure if they will have quotas each month or what...
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


That is what I thought. This calculation puts buy back at $18,587 for us 
Month will matter when it comes to milage. 
Hoping this is what VW will do. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

Looks like we will be getting $20,657 for our 2011 paid off golf. :beer:


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

VT1.8T said:


> Looks like we will be getting $20,657 for our 2011 paid off golf. :beer:




Ours is months away from being paid off. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

This is looking to be a pretty sweet deal for us. I don't think anyone can reasonably complain after seeing these numbers. VW is coming through, and at a time when an AWD wagon is about to be produced and sold here.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

phospher5 said:


> This is looking to be a pretty sweet deal for us. I don't think anyone can reasonably complain after seeing these numbers. VW is coming through, and at a time when an AWD wagon is about to be produced and sold here.


Certainly fair for my situation. Especially since I was getting trade-in numbers two years ago and 24,000 miles less around the $14,500 mark. Incentives for a new Alltrack would be bonus at this point


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Think VW will have special offers on new cars if you are using buy back money? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

2ohgti said:


> Think VW will have special offers on new cars if you are using buy back money?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I imagine they would rather offer buyback folks a $2,000 (for sake of argument) loyalty incentive in order to turn some of that buyback money into revenue as opposed to having to write the whole amount off as a loss. I am no accountant, but on a basic level my logic seems legit to me. But, I could be way off the reservation.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

2ohgti said:


> Think VW will have special offers on new cars if you are using buy back money?


Used and improved Volkswagen TDI's featuring EPA certified(maybe, sorta) CLEANer Diesel Technology, vacuumed seats, floor mats, and electrical tape over the CEL light all for $0 down, 0% APR, 1 year 10k mile emission warranty. Just sign and drive!


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

VT1.8T said:


> I imagine they would rather offer buyback folks a $2,000 (for sake of argument) loyalty incentive in order to turn some of that buyback money into revenue as opposed to having to write the whole amount off as a loss. I am no accountant, but on a basic level my logic seems legit to me. But, I could be way off the reservation.


It makes sense for VW to try to retain customers as well. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## vroom96 (May 16, 2008)

chris86vw said:


> If you look at the cart it is not specific to 2010s, there is a Huge jump odd years and small jump even years except t 2014
> 
> Just using mountain on a JSW and not adjusting
> 
> ...


I own an 09 JSW and (of course) I think the 09 gets the shortest end of the stick. I will get around $14k after adjustments due to lower miles. It's not bad but considering I almost sold my car back in the fall of 2014 for $14k, I think the 09 valuation is low. If I am getting back ~$14k in the buy out, that means the Nada clean value is only around $9k in 9/2015. I agree with some others trade in value is more realistic. We'll see what happens during the comment period and see what, if adjustments will be made.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

vroom96 said:


> I own an 09 JSW and (of course) I think the 09 gets the shortest end of the stick. I will get around $14k after adjustments due to lower miles. It's not bad but considering I almost sold my car back in the fall of 2014 for $14k, I think the 09 valuation is low. If I am getting back ~$14k in the buy out, that means the Nada clean value is only around $9k in 9/2015. I agree with some others trade in value is more realistic. We'll see what happens during the comment period and see what, if adjustments will be made.


I had trade in offers for my 2012 with 80k on it right before this broke and right after.

The one before I had bald tires, crack in bumper hadn't detailed it yet and something up with the exhaust (we'll leave it at that  ). They offered me about 9k 

2 weeks after it broke I went to carmax, the car was cleaner than any other car on their lot, I was offered 9k.


Your car wasn't worth 14k in sept of 2015, I was expecting to get about 13k for mine private sale and that was actually optimistic according to retail values BEFORE this broke. 9k sounds spot on for a 2009.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

automobiliben said:


> Most articles are saying October at the earliest, so that is why October is the earliest possible month. The paper work says that you have to make an appointment at the Dealership, so all depends on when they can get you in. * Not sure if they will have quotas each month or what...*


I would expect that they will limit the numbers because it will take dealership personnel as well as physical space to store all the cars. VW will need to make arrangements to transport all those cars to various central holding locations until they figure out what they will do with them. I can't imagine everyone who wants to turn back their car will get to in the first week or even the first month of the program.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

VT1.8T said:


> I imagine they would rather offer buyback folks a $2,000 (for sake of argument) loyalty incentive in order to turn some of that buyback money into revenue as opposed to having to write the whole amount off as a loss. I am no accountant, but on a basic level my logic seems legit to me. But, I could be way off the reservation.


VW basically "HAS TO" do something to help retain a large %% of the irritated VW/TDI customers (and limited "new" product that isn't already aging or OLD Tiguan, Toureg, Beetle) that are taking part in the buyback. Honestly, for us they REALLY have to come up with something to have a chance to keep us.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

For us they need a 7-8 passenger vehicle that I can buy for 35k.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

I am most interested in seeing how the plan is actually administered, basically for the people that want the buyback, possibly hundreds of thousands of people that expect this October time frame and then what actually happens with their car, the steps to get their money and how long it takes. I would expect they will need whole departments of people to be set up to answer questions, problems, payments and then the logistics of making everything happen from paperwork to moving cars.

I wouldn't be so quick to talk about the "great job" VW has done until I had my money.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

dmorrow said:


> I am most interested in seeing how the plan is actually administered, basically for the people that want the buyback, possibly hundreds of thousands of people that expect this October time frame and then what actually happens with their car, the steps to get their money and how long it takes. I would expect they will need whole departments of people to be set up to answer questions, problems, payments and then the logistics of making everything happen from paperwork to moving cars.
> 
> I wouldn't be so quick to talk about the "great job" VW has done until I had my money.


Portions of this are spelled out in the court documents, each Dealer will get a "Buy Back lead" that gets trained and some other stuff...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

phospher5 said:


> This is looking to be a pretty sweet deal for us. I don't think anyone can reasonably complain after seeing these numbers. VW is coming through, and at a time when an AWD wagon is about to be produced and sold here.


Haha, VW isn't doing you any favors. They are an ethical disaster of a corporation, if it were up to them they would have never been caught...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

2ohgti said:


> Think VW will have special offers on new cars if you are using buy back money?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


One would think not only VW, but every other person with a car to sell would offer some type of incentive. 85% of 482,000 equates to nearly 410,000 car shoppers in the coming two years!

I would almost imagine a tax refund check incentive situation, just an idea...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

automobiliben said:


> One would think not only VW, but every other person with a car to sell would offer some type of incentive. 85% of 482,000 equates to nearly 410,000 car shoppers in the coming two years!


pretty sure that the 85% number is a combined buy back OR fixed number... not just buy back.

Edit:
it IS a combined number.

https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/volkswagen-clean-air-act-partial-settlement
Under the CAA 2.0 liter partial settlement, *Volkswagen is required to remove from commerce in the United States or perform an emissions modification on at least 85 percent of the affected 2.0 liter vehicles* (recall rate). To achieve this recall, Volkswagen must offer every owner and lessee of an affected vehicle the option of a buyback or lease termination. Additionally, if Volkswagen submits a proposal for modifying the vehicles to improve emissions performance in accordance with certain performance and design requirements (emissions modification), and EPA and the California Air Resources Board (CARB) approve it, Volkswagen must offer owners and lessees the option of an emissions modification. In the event that Volkswagen does not achieve the 85 percent recall rate, it must pay additional money into a mitigation trust also established pursuant to the CAA 2.0 liter partial settlement.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

automobiliben said:


> Portions of this are spelled out in the court documents, each Dealer will get a "Buy Back lead" that gets trained and some other stuff...


I think there are roughly 700 dealers so if there are 200,000 buy backs each dealer will need to receive 285 cars and then VW needs to pay all of these people. Court documents and it actually going smoothly may not match.

When VW says "program starts now" it is likely to get overrun with people trying to return cars and collect money. Seems like a lot of people here are asking when it starts so they can be one of the first. I can't picture even 100 cars showing up at my local dealer.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

dunhamjr said:


> pretty sure that the 85% number is a combined buy back OR fixed number... not just buy back.
> 
> Edit:
> it IS a combined number.


But VW doesn't even have a fix for the 3rd generation 2015 models, which are a small portion and would also probably be a fix for the large numbers of unsold 2015/2016 units sitting in storage. Given this, who is going to wait for VW to come up with a fix for the majority of vehicles which are the 1st generation? That 85% number is going to be mostly buybacks in my opinion.


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

This is my post to this thread here - I've been fairly active on TDIClub since 2005.

The Passats are getting pretty short changed and many of us are unhappy about it - I guess they have a fix and have tweaked the buyback amount to encourage the fix versus buyback.

Here's my situation.

Purchased a 2013 Passat TDI SEL in 2014 as a CPO with 23,000. Paid about $27,000 for it. Drove an hour just to get the car I wanted, paid too much, I get it. Purchased extended warranty. Paid about $3,000 in taxes and also put a down payment ($2,000?).

I now currently have 58,000 miles on it. My buyback amount is $26,927 less the mileage = $26,237. Sounds great, right?

Well, I still owe $21,600. After the loan is paid this leaves $4,600. $3,000 of that covers my taxes and lets call the rest the down payment. So I walk away from the car breaking even? Actually...

I've made about $9,000 in payments so far. 

Option 1 - no replacement car. So I walk away from the car with nothing to show for the $9,000 in payments. $9,000 of renting a car, plus maintaining and insuring it, just to give it back. I understand that I got use of it but it's turned into an expensive lease. $9K in the hole.

Option 2 - I get another car. Great, Since VW allowed me to break even, I'll have to pay for taxes and down payment again - twice in two years. SWEET. Plus I get to pay retail for it even though VW buys it back for trade-in. Sounds fair. So I'll be out the $9K + another $5K. $14K in the hole! AWESOME.

Option 3 - get the fix. Get $6,862 and hate making payments and driving the former shell of my favorite car. At the rate I drive I'll blow thru the 120K warranty in about 3 years.

Thank you for letting me vent.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

dmorrow said:


> I think there are roughly 700 dealers so if there are 200,000 buy backs each dealer will need to receive 285 cars and then VW needs to pay all of these people. Court documents and it actually going smoothly may not match.
> 
> When VW says "program starts now" it is likely to get overrun with people trying to return cars and collect money. Seems like a lot of people here are asking when it starts so they can be one of the first. I can't picture even 100 cars showing up at my local dealer.


The money won't come directly from VW, nor the Dealership. They have to put $1.5B in a fund with the government. I can only assume it will be a cluster!

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## Volkl (Oct 2, 2003)

gcodori said:


> This is my post to this thread here - I've been fairly active on TDIClub since 2005.
> 
> The Passats are getting pretty short changed and many of us are unhappy about it - I guess they have a fix and have tweaked the buyback amount to encourage the fix versus buyback.
> 
> ...


Say the scandal never happened. An idiot teen blows a red, T-bones the car, and it is totaled out. Do you think insurance would cut you a check for $26237 on a 3 year old car with 60K on it? Probably not. 

Plus, any unused portion of the extended warranty should be refundable to you. You should read up on the warranty paperwork.


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

automobiliben said:


> Haha, VW isn't doing you any favors. They are an ethical disaster of a corporation, if it were up to them they would have never been caught...
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


Yeah, but they are not the only ones who have ethics issues. That aside, you are right but it still works out well for me. Which is why no one can really reasonably complain.


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

Volkl said:


> Say the scandal never happened. An idiot teen blows a red, T-bones the car, and it is totaled out. Do you think insurance would cut you a check for $26237 on a 3 year old car with 60K on it? Probably not.
> 
> Plus, any unused portion of the extended warranty should be refundable to you. You should read up on the warranty paperwork.


I completely agree. Just wanted to put out that while some are walking away with enough to get another vehicle, a nice down payment or at least some pocket money - some of us will walk with nothing. No car and no extra cash. Just walking away clean. So no "generous compensation"


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

gcodori said:


> Option 3 - get the fix. Get $6,862 and hate making payments and driving the former shell of my favorite car. At the rate I drive I'll blow thru the 120K warranty in about 3 years.


Does your state require emissions recalls to be completed before issuing registration? If no, you might have a fourth option, don't get the fix, pocket the compensation.


----------



## Duvel (Mar 11, 2015)

gcodori said:


> I completely agree. Just wanted to put out that while some are walking away with enough to get another vehicle, a nice down payment or at least some pocket money - some of us will walk with nothing. No car and no extra cash. Just walking away clean. So no "generous compensation"


I agree with you (and informed the court in a letter of objection) that the Owner Restitution should not come on top of the August 2015 trade in value, but on top of the retail value as the eligible owners bought their eligible vehicle at retail value, and will likely have to buy a replacing vehicle at retail value. As it is now, part of the Owner Restitution is actually covering that difference and as such not compensation/restitution for VW's emissions fraud.

However, I don't see how others are better (or worse) off than you. What you will be left with is only a function of how much you still owe. The question of sales tax is still lurking (will owners be allowed to use the buyback amount as trade in on another vehicle to reduce sales tax?) and unused extended warranty might be refundable. 

For someone who is unable or not wanting to reinvest in a new vehicle the offer to fix seems like the best solution. Granted, you bought a car that is more polluting than you thought it was, but does that alone make it the 'former shell' of your car? Your Option 3 is exactly what you claim to want: a car and extra cash.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

gcodori said:


> I completely agree. Just wanted to put out that while some are walking away with enough to get another vehicle, a nice down payment or at least some pocket money - some of us will walk with nothing. No car and no extra cash. Just walking away clean. So no "generous compensation"


I don't think you have a complaint. At all.

Why should you be "walking away with enough to get another vehicle?" You haven't paid for the first vehicle, you financed it. That loan's being taken care of.

Also, I don't get your numbers. Over the past two years, you've paid $2,000 (down) + $3,000 (taxes) + $9,000 (payments) = $14,000 on a $30,000 purchase and still owe $21,600? How can that be?

I think it takes a lot of work to find unhappiness with the buyout plan we've been offered.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

Duvel said:


> I agree with you (and informed the court in a letter of objection) that the Owner Restitution should not come on top of the August 2015 trade in value, but on top of the retail value as the eligible owners bought their eligible vehicle at retail value, and will likely have to buy a replacing vehicle at retail value.


Completely disagree.

New car buyers like me always agree to take a significant and immediate depreciation hit when they drive a new car off a lot. That does not need to be forgiven, we agreed to accept that hit.

What needs to be protected is the value the car had when the scandal broke last September. This settlement gives us a buyback based on last Septembers' price, plus a premium for our hassle, less a modest mileage adjustment.

Just because we can dream up an even higher buyback price doesn't make it equitable.

People, this settlement is amazingly generous. And in two years, or if my car starts falling apart sooner, I'll be selling my '15 TDI SE back to VW for far more than I could have ever expected before the scandal broke.


----------



## Duvel (Mar 11, 2015)

Chilcoot said:


> Completely disagree.
> 
> New car buyers like me always agree to take a significant and immediate depreciation hit when they drive a new car off a lot. That does not need to be forgiven, we agreed to accept that hit.
> 
> ...


Whether the car is new or not is besides the point I tried to make. The value of the car in August of 2015 is arbitrary; that value is less for trade in, more for private sale and most in retail. Not taking condition (other than mileage) in consideration, the settlement has 'chosen' to use the lesser of these three values, while many owners bought their car for retail (for example if you bought it new), and if they choose to sell back the car to VW they might very well have to get a replacing car for retail again. 
As I prefer selling a car privately, the value of my car in August of 2015 was considerably higher than the value that is used in the settlement.

Either way, I was positively surprised by the proposed settlement as I find the Owner Restitution adequate even if you'd deduct the difference in trade in/private party/retail value, but in principle do object to a few elements of it and expressed those to the governing entities.


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

Chilcoot said:


> I don't think you have a complaint. At all.
> 
> Why should you be "walking away with enough to get another vehicle?" You haven't paid for the first vehicle, you financed it. That loan's being taken care of.
> 
> ...


SIMPLE MATH.

I stated the purchase price was $27,000. I also purchased an extended warranty. Total financed was $30,000. Made $9,000 in payments. $30,000 less $9,000 is $21,000. Simple math FTW. 

The down payment and tax are extra on top of that (I thought most people knew this). :banghead: And lets not get into interest on loans - I don't want to make it more complicated for you.

$9,000 in payments + $5,000 on top of that = $14,000. Now If I were to get another vehicle I'd just be making more payments - no big deal. Continue making payments and have a different car at the end. 

But if i decide to not get another car - That's it - payments made and no car to show for it. More like an expensive lease.

I only posted this to show that while some are getting money in their pocket at the end of this, I'll have spent $14K, got $4,600 back and will be out the rest with no car.

Yes I DID get some use of the car. Did I get $450/month worth from it? I enjoyed the heck out of it so that is subjective. Am I OK with being out a car after spending that? Not so sure. I could have used zipcar for 1 hour to work and 1 hour home and came out about 20% under what I spent.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

Down payment is not extra, it comes out of the total. You must be paying one hell of an interest rate.


gcodori said:


> SIMPLE MATH.
> 
> I stated the purchase price was $27,000. I also purchased an extended warranty. Total financed was $30,000. Made $9,000 in payments. $30,000 less $9,000 is $21,000. Simple math FTW.
> 
> ...


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

automobiliben said:


> One would think not only VW, but every other person with a car to sell would offer some type of incentive. 85% of 482,000 equates to nearly 410,000 car shoppers in the coming two years!
> 
> I would almost imagine a tax refund check incentive situation, just an idea...
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


You know-that's a good thought. With this big influx of VW cash hitting the market, I'd expect competitive makes will market to these customers with incentives and offers. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Speaking of handing over our TDI. Right now the car run perfect and there is nothing wrong with it. Can we drive it until something happened? I'm not talking about an accident, but maybe the DPF or the turbo goes? The just have VW buy it back? Does the car have it drive under its own power to be bought back by VW?

Also I should be able to get a refund for pro-rated amount for my extended warranty right?


----------



## euro16v (Dec 12, 1999)

Chilcoot said:


> Completely disagree.
> 
> New car buyers like me always agree to take a significant and immediate depreciation hit when they drive a new car off a lot. That does not need to be forgiven, we agreed to accept that hit.
> 
> ...


Problem is they are not offering us a modest mileage adjustment. look and the numbers in their charts, if you're over the average they subtract a higher number than even the nada guide shows, and if you're under the average they add a lower number than the nada guide shows.


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

euro16v said:


> Problem is they are not offering us a modest mileage adjustment. look and the numbers in their charts, if you're over the average they subtract a higher number than even the nada guide shows, and if you're under the average they add a lower number than the nada guide shows.


I tinkered with the calculator that has been setup and I must say, I was pleasantly surprised how well the numbers worked out for me. As it stands, I will be getting at least what the car would have cost if a dealer was listing it- at retail. I think that's pretty stellar. I made my mileage start at 60xxx miles and go up to 80xxx miles as I was playing around. The hit was not too bad. How many miles do you have on your car that you will take a hit that is too big ? To be clear, I also used a 2013 Jetta input since that is what I have.


----------



## vw_nc_dude (Jan 29, 2012)

I tried to read through the thread but could not find any poster who sold their car after September 18, 2015. If I understand right, we should get about 50% of the cash settlement, is that correct? In may case, I had a 2013 Golf TDI and it looks like I should get about $3,250 which is not bad. Let's see how things look once this is finalized.


----------



## MGQ (Apr 16, 2002)

gcodori said:


> SIMPLE MATH.
> 
> I stated the purchase price was $27,000. I also purchased an extended warranty. Total financed was $30,000. Made $9,000 in payments. $30,000 less $9,000 is $21,000. Simple math FTW.
> 
> ...


Your simple math isn't making much sense to me. 

purchase price: 27,000, total financed: 30,000 (this doesn't include the tax (apparently) or the down payment (obviously)?)

So your total out the door price was, if I'm getting my simple math right, 35,000. 
27,000 car + 3,000 warranty -financed- + 2,000 down + 3,000 tax -paid up front-.

put more simply, you financed 30,000 and put 5,000 down on a 35,000 transaction. and you've paid 9,000 in payments.

I agree it kind of stinks to pay a big % in tax and then 'lose' that by having the car bought back. I'm not really sure why you don't consider your down payment as part of the price of the car you bought or as something that doesn't count when it gets paid back though.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

MGQ said:


> Your simple math isn't making much sense to me.
> 
> purchase price: 27,000, total financed: 30,000 (this doesn't include the tax (apparently) or the down payment (obviously)?)
> 
> ...


It's just belly aching! I have registered my A3 in 3 states and paid nearly 3Xs that in taxes, but I am not complaining. These cars are commodities, not investments...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

automobiliben said:


> It's just belly aching! I have registered my A3 in 3 states and paid nearly 3Xs that in taxes, but I am not complaining. These cars are commodities, not investments...
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


Pretty sure you mean consumable. 

com·mod·i·ty
kəˈmädədē/
noun
plural noun: commodities
a raw material or primary agricultural product that can be bought and sold, such as copper or coffee.
synonyms:	item, material, product, article, object; More


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

gcodori said:


> This is my post to this thread here - I've been fairly active on TDIClub since 2005.
> 
> The Passats are getting pretty short changed and many of us are unhappy about it - I guess they have a fix and have tweaked the buyback amount to encourage the fix versus buyback.
> 
> ...


Something doesn't add up with your numbers. If you overpaid for the car by a few thousand, paid a few thousand (??) for an extended warranty, well, there goes most of the cash that would have otherwise gone in your pocket.

VW is offering you essentially exactly the purchase price of your car after you got two years and 25k miles of use out of it. Outside of the extended warranty, (which may be partially refundable, as stated) the only thing you paid is the taxes in those 2 years. That's a hell of a deal.

Let's say you paid $3000 for the warranty - (seems high, but let's go with it). That's $30000 total purchase price, plus tax. 8% tax is another $2400, so we're at $32400. Add in dealer fees and call it $33000. You put $2000 down, so finance is $31000. $9000 in payments is your $22000 owed. They pay you $26,237 so you have $4200 in your pocket. So in two years you've paid $11000 out of pocket ($9000 in payments plus the downpayment of $2000), less the $4200 additional you have from the buy back. That's $6800 actual cost to you. Which is $283/month which isn't great, but isn't bad as it appears you overpaid for the car and this assumes you get nothing back from the extended warranty. If you get back 2/3 of that extended warranty, that's another $2000 back, so your out of pocket drops to $4800 or $200/month. So you got the use of a top of the line car for less than half of what it should have cost you. That's far from a bad deal. It's not the deal that someone who bought at a better price, skipped the warranty, and had the car for a while longer to amortize the taxes might get, but it's hard to complain about.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Duvel said:


> As I prefer selling a car privately, the value of my car in August of 2015 was considerably higher than the value that is used in the settlement.


I've done the math and compared prices to what I Was looking at the time this was being made public and every car so far seems to fall in line with private sale or a cheap dealer price not low wholesale trade in. Your 2011 actually has a decent jump over 2010s even so of all the owners a 2011 JSW is kind of getting the best deal.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AJB said:


> Speaking of handing over our TDI. Right now the car run perfect and there is nothing wrong with it. Can we drive it until something happened? I'm not talking about an accident, but maybe the DPF or the turbo goes? The just have VW buy it back? *Does the car have it drive under its own power to be bought back by VW?*


Yup actually specifically said must be powered by the engines in question even not just under its own power period. Must have read a comment I said somewhere about putting this engine in my rabbit truck and turning the car in with something else so made sure to include that part


----------



## HI SPEED (Sep 3, 2004)

I wonder what the second hand TDI market is going to look like after all this shakes out. 

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

HI SPEED said:


> I wonder what the second hand TDI market is going to look like after all this shakes out.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


 a big question for sure. Thinking about what cars are most likely to be bought back? The lowest mile ones are drawing the highest values, in this case there is a better than even chance that these cars will never see the light of day again and get crushed/distroyed of there is not a fix. These leaves the marginal ones, shoudl be interesting to see.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

chris86vw said:


> Yup actually specifically said must be powered by the engines in question even not just under its own power period. Must have read a comment I said somewhere about putting this engine in my rabbit truck and turning the car in with something else so made sure to include that part


Over beers last night my buddies were talking about all of the things we could take off mine and get money out of. My A3 has the Titanium package that comes with a nice set of wheels is one definite thing I could swap...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## Rufus T. Firefly (Jul 2, 2016)

I've gotta say, things have worked out pretty well for me. I bought mine brand new two weeks before this broke. I love my car and plan on keeping it. The numbers work out pretty well:

2015 Golf TDI S ($21400) + VWR springs (purchased and installed with goodwill money) + DieselGeek ShortShifter (leftover goodwill money) + misc mods ($500) + Kerma TDI tune ($650) - $6450 (VW settlement) = $16100.

I'll keep it forever, so I'm not worried about resale.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

*Call from dealership*

I got a call from the dealership from which I bought my car today. Their message claimed they're in need of used cars and wanted mine on trade. The cynic in me says this is a ploy to dupe those that are not up on the settlement details to trade before the opt in period.


----------



## URSledgehammer (Oct 3, 2008)

tomski12 said:


> I got a call from the dealership from which I bought my car today. Their message claimed they're in need of used cars and wanted mine on trade. The cynic in me says this is a ploy to dupe those that are not up on the settlement details to trade before the opt in period.


My dealership did the same thing not to long ago. They sent a flyer to both me and my wife saying they wanted our TDi. Oh and the sale ended on the day before the settlement released.


----------



## GlhTroy (Aug 6, 2013)

A what if scenario I have been thinking about is, what if some states that don't test diesel emissions start to test them in the near future? Say starting in 2018(yes I know buyback is still an option in most of 2018) my state starts testing diesel emissions and VW doesn't have a fix for my jetta. What happens after the buy back period passes and this potentially happens to some of us? Will we be given a pass by the state? Will they suspend my registration until it passes emissions,which won't happen if there is never a fix? That could leave me with a rather expensive paper weight in the driveway. It's possible it may never happen,but what if. The financial benefit to the buyback is more then enough reason for me to give the car back. So not a worry for me just a thought.

Troy

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

GlhTroy said:


> A what if scenario I have been thinking about is, what if some states that don't test diesel emissions start to test them in the near future? Say starting in 2018(yes I know buyback is still an option in most of 2018) my state starts testing diesel emissions and VW doesn't have a fix for my jetta. What happens after the buy back period passes and this potentially happens to some of us? Will we be given a pass by the state? Will they suspend my registration until it passes emissions,which won't happen if there is never a fix? That could leave me with a rather expensive paper weight in the driveway. It's possible it may never happen,but what if. The financial benefit to the buyback is more then enough reason for me to give the car back. So not a worry for me just a thought.


Your car currently will pass an OBD readiness based emissions test in states that have them and would in yours. The state would have to specifically flag your vehicle for not being fixed/complaint. Adding a test would not change anything they could in theory decide to flag the car even if they never added diesels to the list of vehicles required to have an inspection.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

tomski12 said:


> I got a call from the dealership from which I bought my car today. Their message claimed they're in need of used cars and wanted mine on trade. The cynic in me says this is a ploy to dupe those that are not up on the settlement details to trade before the opt in period.


Every car dealership does this. Typically they do it by mailing letters to everyone they have ever sold a car to. The letter looks like this:



> Dear FIRSTNAME LASTNAME,
> 
> Hi, I am SALESMAN here at DEALERSHIP NAME and we have extremely low inventory levels on MAKE MODEL due to high demand for MODEL right now. We are able to pay you top dollar for your YEAR MAKE MODEL if you bring it in this week. This is a limited time offer due to seasonal demand for MODEL going on right now. We may never be able to offer you so much money for your MAKE MODEL again here at DEALERSHIP NAME! Please call me, SALESMAN at DEALERSHIP NAME to schedule an appointment right away.
> 
> ...


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

AZGolf said:


> Every car dealership does this. Typically they do it by mailing letters to everyone they have ever sold a car to. The letter looks like this:


I agree but this was an actual phone call rather than a form letter. It was not from an auto-dialer either.


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

URSledgehammer said:


> My dealership did the same thing not to long ago. They sent a flyer to both me and my wife saying they wanted our TDi. Oh and the sale ended on the day before the settlement released.


Age old marketing tactics. Don't fall for it...

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

tomski12 said:


> I agree but this was an actual phone call rather than a form letter. It was not from an auto-dialer either.


A phone call is just a flyer that arrives over tip and ring. Your dealer doesn't actually want anything with your car. They just want you to come into the store and look for a new car.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I've been reading this and all I see are debates over the buyback. It's good money, I agree. Can we talk about the "fix" for a second? Have they released anything that has to do with a potential "fix"? I have a 12 JSW bought post 9/18 so I will have to split the $6100. 

I love my car. I love the mpg and the space/size of my car. I don't have a clue what I could replace it with and still be happy. So I would love to read up on what a fix might entail. 

Anyone? Has it not been released due to vw not having a clue? I'm having trouble finding info.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

VW has no approved fix for any of the 3 generations of TDI motors at this time.

See: *For one VW owner, satisfaction won't come easy*




> I had assumed that, because my car has the newest of the three affected 2.0-liter turbodiesel engines -- a Generation 3 that introduced a new diesel-exhaust after-treatment system -- it would be easier for VW to fix.
> 
> That wishful thinking got swatted down right there on Page 5 of the 225-page court document outlining VW’s settlement: *“At the present time, there are no practical engineering solutions that would, without negative impact to vehicle functions and unacceptable delay, bring the 2.0 Liter Subject Vehicles into compliance with the exhaust emission standards.”*


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

GlhTroy said:


> A what if scenario I have been thinking about is, what if some states that don't test diesel emissions start to test them in the near future? Say starting in 2018(yes I know buyback is still an option in most of 2018) my state starts testing diesel emissions and VW doesn't have a fix for my jetta. What happens after the buy back period passes and this potentially happens to some of us? Will we be given a pass by the state? Will they suspend my registration until it passes emissions,which won't happen if there is never a fix? That could leave me with a rather expensive paper weight in the driveway. It's possible it may never happen,but what if. The financial benefit to the buyback is more then enough reason for me to give the car back. So not a worry for me just a thought.
> 
> Troy
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Considering you are smack dab in the middle of the DC metro area I assume Maryland will go CARB in a couple years and you'll probably be screwed like Jersey, NY, CA, etc - Maryland already has all the big government bureaucracy they may as well tell you what you can and can't do with your car as well. But yes you will pass an emissions inspection now, as in all states.

To the guy above my post, nothing is leaked about any fix whatsoever, but as I remarked in another thread, the f#cking details better be released soon as well as the timeline of how it works, because if VW thinks people are going to not get their hush money for 2 years waiting for them to find a fix (assuming as someone else mentioned that they wouldn't cut you a check until you had the modification done to appease the EPA and pad their 85% goal) - and then they don't end up getting one (which is my assumption anyway as CARB won't settle for a half-fix) - I was under the impression VW couldn't be that stupid to tell the owners who want to keep their cars and get their compensation that they need to show up at a dealer to get an unknown, untested recall that possibly gives their cars worse performance, affects lifespan of components, or modified it from the original design - but I have been wrong before, especially on something like this clean trade value on the Buyback chart.

Then VW may as well just buy back all the vehicles and not waste their time - because no one is going to wait around while other owners are getting vehicles bought back for a ton more money they would get in a private sale or worse yet, a total insurance loss.


----------



## biggus dickus (Jun 28, 2016)

tomski12 said:


> I agree but this was an actual phone call rather than a form letter. It was not from an auto-dialer either.


The new salesman at the dealership is always told to make cold calls and reads from a script just like the one you mentioned. 

I still get calls regarding my 2001 BMW 325i or whatever it was... "Biggus Dickus, we really need your car! it's the best car that everyone in Phoenix wants to buy so please trade it in, we promise to pay you more than anyone else can pay, so much that it's not even a reasonable number and we will probably lose tens of thousands of dollars on your deal. It's ok though, because we really want YOUR CAR"


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Ricky Bobby said:


> To the guy above my post, nothing is leaked about any fix whatsoever, but as I remarked in another thread, the f#cking details better be released soon as well as the timeline of how it works, because if VW thinks people are going to not get their hush money for 2 years waiting for them to find a fix (assuming as someone else mentioned that they wouldn't cut you a check until you had the modification done to appease the EPA and pad their 85% goal) - and then they don't end up getting one (which is my assumption anyway as CARB won't settle for a half-fix) - I was under the impression VW couldn't be that stupid to tell the owners who want to keep their cars and get their compensation that they need to show up at a dealer to get an unknown, untested recall that possibly gives their cars worse performance, affects lifespan of components, or modified it from the original design - but I have been wrong before, especially on something like this clean trade value on the Buyback chart.
> 
> Then VW may as well just buy back all the vehicles and not waste their time - because no one is going to wait around while other owners are getting vehicles bought back for a ton more money they would get in a private sale or worse yet, a total insurance loss.


I revised my post to show the source info is from the lawsuit paperwork.

I am under the impression that to qualify for the $5100 hush money (and not a buyback), you actually have to have your car undertake an approved fix. Otherwise, what incentive would there be for owners to bother to fix their cars at all? 

As we approach the 1 year anniversary of this fiasco, nothing has been announced about any fix for any of the 3 generations. As I stated in a prior post, you would think VW would have already come up with a fix for the 2015 models given that it would also be applied to 2016 models that are sitting in inventory. Thus allowing them to actually sell product. Especially to owners of 2009-2014 cars that might want to stay with a TDI such as yourself. But since no word of a fix for these late models has been forthcoming from VW, you have to wonder whether they can fix them at all?


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Considering you are smack dab in the middle of the DC metro area I assume Maryland will go CARB in a couple years and you'll probably be screwed like Jersey, NY, CA, etc - Maryland already has all the big government bureaucracy they may as well tell you what you can and can't do with your car as well. But yes you will pass an emissions inspection now, as in all states.
> 
> To the guy above my post, nothing is leaked about any fix whatsoever, but as I remarked in another thread, the f#cking details better be released soon as well as the timeline of how it works, because if VW thinks people are going to not get their hush money for 2 years waiting for them to find a fix (assuming as someone else mentioned that they wouldn't cut you a check until you had the modification done to appease the EPA and pad their 85% goal) - and then they don't end up getting one (which is my assumption anyway as CARB won't settle for a half-fix) - I was under the impression VW couldn't be that stupid to tell the owners who want to keep their cars and get their compensation that they need to show up at a dealer to get an unknown, untested recall that possibly gives their cars worse performance, affects lifespan of components, or modified it from the original design - but I have been wrong before, especially on something like this clean trade value on the Buyback chart.
> 
> Then VW may as well just buy back all the vehicles and not waste their time - because no one is going to wait around while other owners are getting vehicles bought back for a ton more money they would get in a private sale or worse yet, a total insurance loss.


I think it's best to wait. I like the car, and I can keep driving it until the end of the buyback period. The fix, if it ever gets approved by CARB and EPA, probably won't greatly affect mileage or power. If no fix ever gets approved, the buyback is OK. If the EPA gives the OK for VW to sell new TDI cars, I even have a nice upgrade route.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Would kinda like to give my 12' JSW back and get like a 15' GSW TDI. 

Given the "fix" doesn't literally kill the car.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

spockcat said:


> I revised my post to show the source info is from the lawsuit paperwork.
> 
> I am under the impression that to qualify for the $5100 hush money (and not a buyback), you actually have to have your car undertake an approved fix. Otherwise, what incentive would there be for owners to bother to fix their cars at all?
> 
> As we approach the 1 year anniversary of this fiasco, nothing has been announced about any fix for any of the 3 generations. As I stated in a prior post, you would think VW would have already come up with a fix for the 2015 models given that it would also be applied to 2016 models that are sitting in inventory. Thus allowing them to actually sell product. Especially to owners of 2009-2014 cars that might want to stay with a TDI such as yourself. But since no word of a fix for these late models has been forthcoming from VW, you have to wonder whether they can fix them at all?


I would imagine the fix would take anywhere from 2 to 3 years to design, test & approve through CARB/EPA. Then the fixes have to get into production, delivered to dealers, and techs have to get trained. Don't count on anything soon.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Considering you are smack dab in the middle of the DC metro area I assume Maryland will go CARB in a couple years and you'll probably be screwed like Jersey, NY, CA, etc - Maryland already has all the big government bureaucracy they may as well tell you what you can and can't do with your car as well. But yes you will pass an emissions inspection now, as in all states.
> 
> To the guy above my post, nothing is leaked about any fix whatsoever, but as I remarked in another thread, the f#cking details better be released soon as well as the timeline of how it works, because if VW thinks people are going to not get their hush money for 2 years waiting for them to find a fix (assuming as someone else mentioned that they wouldn't cut you a check until you had the modification done to appease the EPA and pad their 85% goal) - and then they don't end up getting one (which is my assumption anyway as CARB won't settle for a half-fix) - I was under the impression VW couldn't be that stupid to tell the owners who want to keep their cars and get their compensation that they need to show up at a dealer to get an unknown, untested recall that possibly gives their cars worse performance, affects lifespan of components, or modified it from the original design - but I have been wrong before, especially on something like this clean trade value on the Buyback chart.
> 
> Then VW may as well just buy back all the vehicles and not waste their time - because no one is going to wait around while other owners are getting vehicles bought back for a ton more money they would get in a private sale or worse yet, a total insurance loss.


I think the restitution money that will be paid to the owners who decide to keep their cars will be paid. I don't think there is a condition precedent that the fix has to be performed before the restitution money is paid.


----------



## GlhTroy (Aug 6, 2013)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Considering you are smack dab in the middle of the DC metro area I assume Maryland will go CARB in a couple years and you'll probably be screwed like Jersey, NY, CA, etc - Maryland already has all the big government bureaucracy they may as well tell you what you can and can't do with your car as well. But yes you will pass an emissions inspection now, as in all states.
> .


I agree and I wouldn't put it past any politician(state or federal) to try and make the TDi affected by this diesel gate crap their personal "hey look what I did" lynching mission. to have them all removed from the road regardless of what the EPA and CARB may have agreed to with VW. If it will get them some small amount of attention or accolade(s) they will make any and everyone's life miserable just for a pat on the back. Like the Redskins name bull$hit some politician started.

And yes I am 10 min outside of DC, 5min from the beltway.

Troy




Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## BudPytko (Apr 22, 2012)

Ricky Bobby said:


> *Considering you are smack dab in the middle of the DC metro area I assume Maryland will go CARB in a couple years and you'll probably be screwed like Jersey, NY, CA, etc - *Maryland already has all the big government bureaucracy they may as well tell you what you can and can't do with your car as well. But yes you will pass an emissions inspection now, as in all states.
> 
> To the guy above my post, nothing is leaked about any fix whatsoever, but as I remarked in another thread, the f#cking details better be released soon as well as the timeline of how it works, because if VW thinks people are going to not get their hush money for 2 years waiting for them to find a fix (assuming as someone else mentioned that they wouldn't cut you a check until you had the modification done to appease the EPA and pad their 85% goal) - and then they don't end up getting one (which is my assumption anyway as CARB won't settle for a half-fix) - I was under the impression VW couldn't be that stupid to tell the owners who want to keep their cars and get their compensation that they need to show up at a dealer to get an unknown, untested recall that possibly gives their cars worse performance, affects lifespan of components, or modified it from the original design - but I have been wrong before, especially on something like this clean trade value on the Buyback chart.
> 
> Then VW may as well just buy back all the vehicles and not waste their time - because no one is going to wait around while other owners are getting vehicles bought back for a ton more money they would get in a private sale or worse yet, a total insurance loss.


Maryland already IS a CARB state... we just do not have diesel smog inspections - YET!


----------



## Lord Foul (Jun 7, 2013)

PnZrFsT said:


> The adjustment in step six is only if your total compensation falls below the $5100 mark, NOT if your mileage adjustment is under $5100.
> 
> Phil's estimate is accurate.
> 
> https://byebyetdi.us/view.php?region_id=22&car_id=44&miles=144000&month_offset=13&options%5B528%5D=on&options%5B980%5D=on


Sorry for the delayed response, I had a holiday to deal with and I checked out of this thread for a while.

I can see how the "Further Adjustment" section of the mileage adjustment tables could be read this way, but it's not how the remaining documentation reads. For example, see page 3 of "Exhibit 3 - Long Form Notice":

"If a class member who owns a car chooses a Buyback, the price Volkswagen will pay for that car is the September 2015 National Automobile Dealers Association (“NADA”) Clean Trade-In value of the car, adjusted for options and mileage. This figure is the value of the car in September 2015, before the emissions accusations became public (“Vehicle Value”). Owners receive their Vehicle Value, plus an additional cash payment (“Owner Restitution” or “Owner Restitution Payment”). The minimum Owner Restitution Payment for any class member—to be paid on top of the Vehicle Value—will be $5,100. Some class members may receive as much as $10,000 in Owner Restitution."

This makes it pretty clear that the $5100 isn't the minimum overall compensation, it's the the minimum owner restitution on top of vehicle value. So any calculation that assumes that $5100 is the minimum total compensation can't be correct.

I have no idea if this means the unofficial calculator you reference is inaccurate. It's wrong in at least one way, because it only calculates values through December of 2017, while owners have until September 1st of 2018 to submit claims. VW is supposed to have an official calculator posted to the vwcourtsettlement.com site by the end of July, so at this point, I'm waiting for that.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Lord Foul said:


> I have no idea if this means the unofficial calculator you reference is inaccurate. It's wrong in at least one way, because it only calculates values through December of 2017, while owners have until September 1st of 2018 to submit claims. VW is supposed to have an official calculator posted to the vwcourtsettlement.com site by the end of July, so at this point, I'm waiting for that.


The problem with your logic is that you claim there is any settlement at all. There isn't. There is only a _proposed_ settlement. Once there is a real settlement then it will be possible to contact VW's appointed plan administrator and verify the value of any given car. That will be the final word on buy-back pricing.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

tomski12 said:


> I think the restitution money that will be paid to the owners who decide to keep their cars will be paid. I don't think there is a condition precedent that the fix has to be performed before the restitution money is paid.


This part seems confusing but it does say to be paid upon a fix for gen 1 and 2 cars and to be paid 2/3 upon a fix outlined in one part (appendix B) for the gen 3 cars and the final third upon the real fix. That part, appendix B, was discussing lots of things but made a specific mention of gen 1 and 2 cars having "2014" software referring to the recall that was supposed to remove the cheat. So this may be referring to the first part of the fix for the gen 3 cars has having similar software made available. 

It does seem that funds will be held until a fix is available sort of forcing people to take a buyback, that could be part of the pressure on VW to fix whatever they may possibly be able to.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> I would imagine the fix would take anywhere from 2 to 3 years to design, test & approve through CARB/EPA. Then the fixes have to get into production, delivered to dealers, and techs have to get trained. Don't count on anything soon.


The test requirements are very detailed in the longer 225 page filing on the DOJ site, While it may not take that long they are requiring that the hardware be tested to a point of failure and submitted. The tests cannot be simulated, maybe some but not others?? Meaning that they need to be real word or test cell miles as it specifically said they can't do heat cycles in an oven. That is going to take some time to get done whether anyone here thinks it should happen sooner or even exist already. Glad someone else gets this :thumbup:


What I also found interesting was that in at least one section it seemed to lump all the repairs into one, it said that if a submission is made for a fix, 4 of each of the generation vehicles must be provided to test or 12 in total. Said nothing about oh submit a gen 3 send us 4 gen 3 cars. This very much made it sound like an all or nothing approach to the approval which is just weird so hope misinterpreted that part.


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

How come options like: Heated Seats, Bi-Xenons and Rear Side Airbags are not factored into the calculation of the settlement amount? I have all these on my 4 door 2011 TDI Golf 6-speed. What a crock.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> It does seem that funds will be held until a fix is available sort of forcing people to take a buyback, that could be part of the pressure on VW to fix whatever they may possibly be able to.


That totally makes sense. Otherwise, people in states that do not tie emissions testing to registration would take the money and never get the cars fixed.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

Here is another view: Dieselgate: Dealers have more questions than answers. The communication between VW and hte dealers has been non existent, the dealers are just as, if not more frustrated than the comsumers.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

By another view you mean another link to YOUR blog written by you, so really neither? tiny url is lame when doing that sort of thing and possibly frowned upon here as per the rules :thumbdown:

I didn't read it but I assume you included the part that this is just out for public review by the class and dealers are not involved in the process at this point because they are not part of the class right?


----------



## Lord Foul (Jun 7, 2013)

AZGolf said:


> The problem with your logic is that you claim there is any settlement at all. There isn't. There is only a _proposed_ settlement. Once there is a real settlement then it will be possible to contact VW's appointed plan administrator and verify the value of any given car. That will be the final word on buy-back pricing.


It's not my logic. There's a note at the bottom of multiple pages in Attachment 1A that says "Visit VWCourtSettlement.com starting in July 2016 to enter your VIN and calculate your amount based on your mileage," so unless that's a lie, VW will be providing some sort of calculator this month. Perhaps the calculated results will say "based on proposed settlement." I'll still use it, as I doubt the terms of the final settlement are changing significantly.


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> By another view you mean another link to YOUR blog written by you, so really neither? tiny url is lame when doing that sort of thing and possibly frowned upon here as per the rules :thumbdown:
> 
> I didn't read it but I assume you included the part that this is just out for public review by the class and dealers are not involved in the process at this point because they are not part of the class right?


 It has nothing to do with the class action but it about the lack of communication from VW/VWoA and the dealer network.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Lord Foul said:


> Sorry for the delayed response, I had a holiday to deal with and I checked out of this thread for a while.
> 
> I can see how the "Further Adjustment" section of the mileage adjustment tables could be read this way, but it's not how the remaining documentation reads. For example, see page 3 of "Exhibit 3 - Long Form Notice":
> 
> ...


But the Table 1A already has the minium $5100 added to it. If somebody thinks my '10 A3 was worth $20k in September of '15 I also have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

Sept 2015 trade in value sucks

Where can I voice some displeasure?


----------



## Lord Foul (Jun 7, 2013)

automobiliben said:


> But the Table 1A already has the minium $5100 added to it. If somebody thinks my '10 A3 was worth $20k in September of '15 I also have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale...


No one is saying your A3 was worth exactly what's in attachment 1A. That's what an average A3 was worth. Yours may have been worth a lot less after mileage and option adjustments. I don't think it's a stretch to say that an average 2010 A3 TDI could have been worth $20K in 2015. Even today, the average price of a 2010 non-TDI A3 is over $15K on Autotrader, and TDIs were worth significantly more than non-TDIs before the recall.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Lord Foul said:


> No one is saying your A3 was worth exactly what's in attachment 1A. That's what an average A3 was worth. Yours may have been worth a lot less after mileage and option adjustments. I don't think it's a stretch to say that an average 2010 A3 TDI could have been worth $20K in 2015. Even today, the average price of a 2010 non-TDI A3 is over $15K on Autotrader, and TDIs were worth significantly more than non-TDIs before the recall.


My A3 was worth about $15k back then, I was looking at getting rid of it before this whole fiasco started.

http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/crb/vwmdl/proposed-settlement#Benefits



> Option 1:
> Sell your car back to VW plus a cash payment for a combined total of:


Key word here is Combined.

I mean, by all means, I would love to tack on an additional $5100 onto all of this as well, but that just isn't going to happen. If you read through the paperwork the calculations are pretty clearly laid out. It is also tricky where they keep on interchanging Payment and Restitution...


----------



## Lord Foul (Jun 7, 2013)

automobiliben said:


> I mean, by all means, I would love to tack on an additional $5100 onto all of this as well, but that just isn't going to happen. If you read through the paperwork the calculations are pretty clearly laid out. It is also tricky where they keep on interchanging Payment and Restitution...


I'm glad you have such certainty. I've already shared why I don't, so I won't repeat myself here. We'll all find out when there's an official calculator.


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Then VW may as well just buy back all the vehicles and not waste their time - because no one is going to wait around while other owners are getting vehicles bought back for a ton more money they would get in a private sale or worse yet, a total insurance loss.


No one? Really?

The estimated buyback for our 2010 Jetta TDI is about $17k. We paid off the loan last year, and we were hoping to get another 10 years of ownership without a car payment. It's in great condition, and we really like it. Tell me where we can get a pristine car with equivalent performance, drivability, and fuel economy for $17k. This is not a snarky question - I would really like to know.

Unless we can identify such a replacement, we are inclined to wait and see if VW can come up with a fix. If I understand the tables correctly, there is no penalty for waiting. If VW has no fix by the deadline set in the settlement (late 2018), and the buyout is our only option, our compensation amount will be about the same.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

julianv said:


> If I understand the tables correctly, there is no penalty for waiting. If VW has no fix by the deadline set in the settlement (late 2018), and the buyout is our only option, our compensation amount will be about the same.


Assuming you don't drive more than 1000 miles a month.... and the car isn't stolen or written off in the meantime - then I believe you are correct, no penalty.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

julianv said:


> No one? Really?
> 
> The estimated buyback for our 2010 Jetta TDI is about $17k. We paid off the loan last year, and we were hoping to get another 10 years of ownership without a car payment. It's in great condition, and we really like it. Tell me where we can get a pristine car with equivalent performance, drivability, and fuel economy for $17k. This is not a snarky question - I would really like to know.
> 
> Unless we can identify such a replacement, we are inclined to wait and see if VW can come up with a fix. If I understand the tables correctly, there is no penalty for waiting. If VW has no fix by the deadline set in the settlement (late 2018), and the buyout is our only option, our compensation amount will be about the same.


Some newer choices from my local Chevy dealer:

2013 Chevrolet Volt BASE VIP Price: $16,584 29,593 Miles 

2014 Chevrolet Volt 5DR HB TITLED RENTAL Price: $19,768 3,772 Miles


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Phil Pugliese said:


> It has nothing to do with the class action but it about the lack of communication from VW/VWoA and the dealer network.


Why do you post here instead of spamming the forums what it is actually about then. :thumbdown:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Lord Foul said:


> I don't think it's a stretch to say that an average 2010 A3 TDI could have been worth $20K in 2015.


That is a HUGE stretch.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

julianv said:


> No one? Really?
> 
> The estimated buyback for our 2010 Jetta TDI is about $17k. We paid off the loan last year, and we were hoping to get another 10 years of ownership without a car payment. It's in great condition, and we really like it. Tell me where we can get a pristine car with equivalent performance, drivability, and fuel economy for $17k. This is not a snarky question - I would really like to know.
> 
> Unless we can identify such a replacement, we are inclined to wait and see if VW can come up with a fix. If I understand the tables correctly, there is no penalty for waiting. If VW has no fix by the deadline set in the settlement (late 2018), and the buyout is our only option, our compensation amount will be about the same.


:thumbup:

My 2015 is going nowhere anytime soon, if they come to their senses and actually have a manual SEL Alltrack I'll consider it but not even that eager to get rid of my current one for that. Nothing exists that I want to replace it with so it stays. 



I spoke to a couple that moved in recently a few doors up from me the day after all the numbers were released, they hadn't seen them yet. They own a 2010 JSW TDI and a 2012 golf TDI, neither of them want to get rid of them and the guy (probably in his late 50s or early 60s) was upset that fewer and fewer manuals exist to replace his JSW but seemed interested to leave it if the cash was right, still wished the best option was to keep it. The wife though with her golf had no interest in any other car.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

chris86vw said:


> This part seems confusing but it does say to be paid upon a fix for gen 1 and 2 cars and to be paid 2/3 upon a fix outlined in one part (appendix B) for the gen 3 cars and the final third upon the real fix. That part, appendix B, was discussing lots of things but made a specific mention of gen 1 and 2 cars having "2014" software referring to the recall that was supposed to remove the cheat. So this may be referring to the first part of the fix for the gen 3 cars has having similar software made available.
> 
> It does seem that funds will be held until a fix is available sort of forcing people to take a buyback, that could be part of the pressure on VW to fix whatever they may possibly be able to.



Thank you Chris as you read more than I did. So thats all well and good but if that is true then that is the dumbest thing i've ever heard in my life - If you want to keep your car and not sue VW and just enjoy it, they hold your settlement funds until they can run out the clock (2018) on the "fix", because as you said, ALL 3 GENERATIONS need to be approved in order to be rolled out and sold again - considering the first gen's are the toughest to fix and it may not be cost effective, I can easily see VW just waiting the 2 years -

I'm not going to gamble getting this car totaled in the next 2.5 years and getting sh!t value for it from insurance when I could sell it back for what I bought it for - I would take the gamble if they paid out the settlement money up front to owners who wanted to keep their cars, invest most of it or save it and it would help if an unforseen circumstance happened - I'm sure in VW's calculation they are also banking on many cars being sold or totaled before the settlement gets paid to the owners who decide to keep.

Between the "clean trade in value" as opposed to retail (since we are buying new cars at retail), and now this "hush money held hostage" until they get around to it, IF THEY EVER DO, on something unknown and unapproved, VW has truly gone down the toilet, IMO - 

I was decently pleased when it first broke but the more details that come out, I am not happy with this at all. I'd rather get it bought back and cut my losses, get my wife into a CPO Audi or CPO BMW at this point.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Right now I am interested in seeing what else could possibly even replace my JSW. I want a hatch. I want it to be kinda big, I'm a fatty (250lbs, 6'4). And I want to try and keep great fuel economy. I've put 14k on my tdi since 11/7/2015. 

Like how is the volt for traveling? We often go from Philly to Pittsburgh to see my in-laws (300 miles each way). Is this going to kill the car? 


What else exists? I like the GSW better, but vw doesn't have a great, fuel economical gasser in my opinion.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

julianv said:


> No one? Really?
> 
> The estimated buyback for our 2010 Jetta TDI is about $17k. We paid off the loan last year, and we were hoping to get another 10 years of ownership without a car payment. It's in great condition, and we really like it. Tell me where we can get a pristine car with equivalent performance, drivability, and fuel economy for $17k. This is not a snarky question - I would really like to know.
> 
> Unless we can identify such a replacement, we are inclined to wait and see if VW can come up with a fix. If I understand the tables correctly, there is no penalty for waiting. If VW has no fix by the deadline set in the settlement (late 2018), and the buyout is our only option, our compensation amount will be about the same.


If my car was paid off, I'd consider it and be in the same boat as you - we aren't underwater by any means but if its totaled or stolen in the next 2 years we miss out on that valuation - again - If VW paid out the settlement money up front for the owners that want to keep their cars, I would have NO QUALMS about keeping it, some of that money pays down the loan, maintenance, etc, and I'm happy. However for my car the buyback with everything settled out is about $30.5k and the hush money is $7500 - 

However, you are right - nothing, especially in VW's selection ticks all the boxes of driveability, performance, and fuel economy. I would have a very hard and damn near impossible time staying with VW if our car is bought back. We would most likely have to leave the brand.

I don't know if this has been covered but if your car is stolen or totaled after September of this year, what do you get from VW if anything? I know the gray area between now and September is nothing.



chris86vw said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> My 2015 is going nowhere anytime soon, if they come to their senses and actually have a manual SEL Alltrack I'll consider it but not even that eager to get rid of my current one for that. Nothing exists that I want to replace it with so it stays.
> 
> I spoke to a couple that moved in recently a few doors up from me the day after all the numbers were released, they hadn't seen them yet. They own a 2010 JSW TDI and a 2012 golf TDI, neither of them want to get rid of them and the guy (probably in his late 50s or early 60s) was upset that fewer and fewer manuals exist to replace his JSW but seemed interested to leave it if the cash was right, still wished the best option was to keep it. The wife though with her golf had no interest in any other car.


I would take a 2015 or 2016 GSW SEL TDI (or even SE with Lighting Pkg), only because they made so few before the scandal - as I've mentioned multiple times I'm surprised they can't clear the urea injected models to sell - I would easily do that and trade up my JSW for the GSW TDI - but as I suspect, the EPA/CARB really just wants these cars off the road completely and are making it difficult for VW, giving them the "all or nothing" mantra in regards to a "fix", no negotiation room to do it halfway, etc.

A lot can happen before the settlement is approved, last week we were going to keep it, assuming we'd sign that we don't sue VW and they cut a check for our troubles and let us know if there is a recall available - however if I have to wait 2 years for the clock to run out, and then get a check (with diminished value as my wife puts about 17-18k miles a year on the JSW), and by then the buyback amount will be less as well, I really just don't know.

We don't want to get rid of it and love the car but its a really tough place to be in, IMO


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

spockcat said:


> Some newer choices from my local Chevy dealer:


I'd have a hard time not looking at a volt if I were getting out of a diesel.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Silly_me said:


> I'd have a hard time not looking at a volt if I were getting out of a diesel.


I'd be considering the Bolt as well... all electric so you lose a bit of that failsafe... but it's a bit roomier. Should be out just in time to pick up after the buyout too.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

Ricky Bobby said:


> I would take a 2015 or 2016 GSW SEL TDI (or even SE with Lighting Pkg), only because they made so few before the scandal - *as I've mentioned multiple times I'm surprised they can't clear the urea injected models to sell *- I would easily do that and trade up my JSW for the GSW TDI - but as I suspect, the EPA/CARB really just wants these cars off the road completely and are making it difficult for VW, giving them the "all or nothing" mantra in regards to a "fix", no negotiation room to do it halfway, etc.


This has been brought up a few times, so I think it's worth mentioning. The EPA is enforcing the emissions regulations in place at the time the cars were originally certified and sold -- no more, no less. If they compromised and accepted partial compliance, what message would they be sending to VW and the rest of the industry? They'd be saying it's okay to cheat. Moreover, if the EPA lowered the bar for VW, it could be seen as showing preference to VW and open the EPA up to lawsuits from automakers and possibly the public.

Now, you could say the existing emissions regulations certainly make it difficult to certify a diesel passenger car in the US. But the time for VW to negotiate that with the EPA was during the lobbying or public comment period -- not after the cars were sold.

As far as why the urea-injected (EA288) 2.0L models can't meet requirements, VW has said they don't have a technical fix as of today. Meeting the emissions regulations must require more than increasing the urea-dosing rate. For example, in the 3.0L TDI models, VW's proposed fix (which the EPA hasn't commented on yet) requires a new catalyst. I'm hypothesizing here, but what if they don't have room on the 2.0L cars for a larger/different catalyst?



> Page 5 of the 225-page court document outlining VW’s settlement: “At the present time, there are no practical engineering solutions that would,* without negative impact to vehicle functions and unacceptable delay*, bring the 2.0 Liter Subject Vehicles into compliance with the exhaust emission standards.”


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

^^Understood and agree completely - which is why I said to be honest people would be absolute fools to leave their money on the table for 2+ years while VW doesnt have a fix and its been almost 10 years since it was originally designed, while owners are getting cars bought back at more than price paid -

In which case you like to gamble with insurance payouts if the car is totaled or stolen, or don't need the extra cash, then I can understand - but if I had the option of getting the car bought back or possibly in 2+ years getting about $7,500, who would prefer to get less money later?


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

Silly_me said:


> I'd have a hard time not looking at a volt if I were getting out of a diesel.



Just took a 2016 for a test drive yesterday. Drives reasonably well, smooth and quiet, Decent low-end torque from the electrics but not a lot of get-up-and-go on the highway. So basically, as well as I reasonably expected. Only downside is the back seat...space back there is at a serious premium. I can't sit back there with the front seat any further back than all the way forward, or my feet both don't fit in the footwell. Even at that, my head hits the ceiling with the low-sloping liftback glass (I'm 6'3"). Still debaing on whether that's going to be a problem or not. And read some reviews saying the middle "seat" area can be pretty difficult to get a car seat into. With a pregnant wife, that may be a concern.


----------



## Lord Foul (Jun 7, 2013)

chris86vw said:


> That is a HUGE stretch.


It may be a huge stretch, but that's not the question. The question is if it was a huge stretch before the recall.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

veedubBiker said:


> Just took a 2016 for a test drive yesterday. Drives reasonably well, smooth and quiet, Decent low-end torque from the electrics but not a lot of get-up-and-go on the highway. So basically, as well as I reasonably expected. Only downside is the back seat...space back there is at a serious premium. I can't sit back there with the front seat any further back than all the way forward, or my feet both don't fit in the footwell. Even at that, my head hits the ceiling with the low-sloping liftback glass (I'm 6'3"). Still debaing on whether that's going to be a problem or not. And read some reviews saying the middle "seat" area can be pretty difficult to get a car seat into. With a pregnant wife, that may be a concern.


If you're shopping Chevy and looking for an adult-sized back seat, the new Malibu may work for you. Skip the old ones: the 2016 added a whopping 4 inches of legroom. The 2016 Malibu Hybrid starts at $28.5k well equipped and rated at 47mpg combined.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Patiently awaiting $$$ check so I can rip out the DPF and other needless emissions crap.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Lord Foul said:


> It may be a huge stretch, but that's not the question. The question is if it was a huge stretch before the recall.


That car was only about ~31k new base price and limited options if I recall. You could build out a JSW with options for about that as well, 2010 JSWs with all the options were NOT going for 20k before the scandal.

2012 loaded JSWs were NOT going for 20k before the scandal on dealer lots. 


So yes it was a huge stretch before this broke.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Uberhare said:


> Patiently awaiting $$$ check so I can rip out the DPF and other needless emissions crap.


Hope you are a patient person. Because it doesn't appear there will be any money for people keeping their cars until VW issues a fix and actually fixes your car. And that could be YEARS. :laugh:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Thank you Chris as you read more than I did. So thats all well and good but if that is true then that is the dumbest thing i've ever heard in my life - If you want to keep your car and not sue VW and just enjoy it, they hold your settlement funds until they can run out the clock (2018) on the "fix", because as you said, ALL 3 GENERATIONS need to be approved in order to be rolled out and sold again - considering the first gen's are the toughest to fix and it may not be cost effective, I can easily see VW just waiting the 2 years -



I very well may be misreading the part about the 3 generations being submitted for testing at the same time, I hope I am, I read it a few times trying to come up with another interpretation but the part I was reading did not look good. That section had a lot of information on what exactly the levels were and testing procedures that I skimmed so it is possible I missed something that contradicts my interpretation.

I really hope I read that wrong.


The 2/3 payment part gives me some hope for my 2015 getting a little pay out if i decide to keep it for the time being. For now I think I'm done trying to read all this since it is just proposed and will wait to waste my time on the final version .


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> If you're shopping Chevy and looking for an adult-sized back seat, the new Malibu may work for you. Skip the old ones: the 2016 added a whopping 4 inches of legroom. The 2016 Malibu Hybrid starts at $28.5k well equipped and rated at 47mpg combined.



I had passed it over while looking at teh Volt, but its not a bad looking car. The main reason I was looking at the Volt was because my normal commute is only 2 miles each way, and we have solar panels that currently produce more power than we use throughout the year, so I would VERY rarely have to pay for fuel, either gas or electricity. While the standard hybrids have good mileage, its not as great a benefit. I'm testing a GTI next week...the benefit of going hybrid is going to have to be pretty great to give up any modicum of "fun" driving.


----------



## Lord Foul (Jun 7, 2013)

chris86vw said:


> That car was only about ~31k new base price and limited options if I recall. You could build out a JSW with options for about that as well, 2010 JSWs with all the options were NOT going for 20k before the scandal.
> 
> 2012 loaded JSWs were NOT going for 20k before the scandal on dealer lots.
> 
> ...


There's a premium value associated with owning an Audi that a JSW will never have, no matter how many options you put on it. Most of those options are nearly worthless when you sell the car, but the Audi badge isn't so worthless.

Still, we've ventured so far off topic that I'm giving up arguing over this. I'll just concede that an average 2010 A3 TDI was worthless in 2015, as that doesn't prove or disprove anything.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Lord Foul said:


> I'm giving up arguing over this.


No one was arguing, you were simply misinformed regarding the actual value of vehicles at the time. Those of us who were actively selling our cars at the time this broke were up to speed on the values.


ETA: I do own an A3 also, it has never been worth more than the difference in initial price over the comparable VW.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

chris86vw said:


> That car was only about ~31k new base price and limited options if I recall. You could build out a JSW with options for about that as well, 2010 JSWs with all the options were NOT going for 20k before the scandal.
> 
> 2012 loaded JSWs were NOT going for 20k before the scandal on dealer lots.
> 
> ...


My car stickered between $38-39k new and didn't have the sunroof or navigation, so if you call $11-13k in options limited than yes, lol. I think they topped out at like $43k.

Not poking anything, just clearing that point up...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## Lord Foul (Jun 7, 2013)

chris86vw said:


> No one was arguing, you were simply misinformed regarding the actual value of vehicles at the time.


I love that. I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining to you how wrong you are. This could be the mission statement of the Car Lounge.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

Is anyone else going to use their VW Roadside Assistance perk to have the car towed from their house to the nearest dealership to process the buyback? :laugh:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

automobiliben said:


> My car stickered between $38-39k new and didn't have the sunroof or navigation, so if you call $11-13k in options limited than yes, lol. I think they topped out at like $43k.
> 
> Not poking anything, just clearing that point up...


Not sure how you get 43 loaded for a 2010 TDI A3

31 base
2knav
2k premium
1100 roof
1000 bose
500 cold weather

37,600


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

chris86vw said:


> Not sure how you get 43 loaded for a 2010 TDI A3
> 
> 31 base
> 2knav
> ...


My window sticker.

You are also forgetting the glass roof that was around $2500. That would put you right at $41k and I remember seeing ones going for more than that. Must be some options I am forgetting...










Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

automobiliben said:


> My window sticker.
> 
> You are also forgetting the glass roof that was around $2500. That would put you right at $41k and I remember seeing ones going for more than that. Must be some options I am forgetting...
> 
> ...


What trim was your A3 ? is there a higher trim level that would push the car into the 40s ?


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

phospher5 said:


> What trim was your A3 ? is there a higher trim level that would push the car into the 40s ?


Premium Plus was the highest trim level back then. My car with Navigation and Sunroof would have been $41k...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

DUBPL8 said:


> Is anyone else going to use their VW Roadside Assistance perk to have the car towed from their house to the nearest dealership to process the buyback? :laugh:


You win today.


----------



## Lord Foul (Jun 7, 2013)

automobiliben said:


> But the Table 1A already has the minium $5100 added to it. If somebody thinks my '10 A3 was worth $20k in September of '15 I also have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale...


I'm still interested in this, and my previous attempt to respond devolved into a discussion about A3 prices. Those are less than perfectly obvious, so I'm going to try to take this in a different direction.

The lowest value for any car listed in Attachment 1A is about $12.5K for a 2009 Jetta TDI. The claim above is that the $5100 is already built in to this. So what that says is that the Clean NADA trade in value for an average 2009 Jetta TDI in 2015 was about $7.4K. That's not far from the trade in value today. So what this is saying is that the recall pretty much didn't cost the owner of a 2009 Jetta TDI anything at all. Does anyone believe that?


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

Ricky Bobby said:


> In which case you like to gamble with insurance payouts if the car is totaled or stolen, or don't need the extra cash, then I can understand...


Several people have made this argument for choosing the buyout rather than waiting for a fix. But we could take the buyout, use it to buy another car, and THAT ONE might get stolen or totaled. We still get hosed by the low ball payouts from our insurance companies.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

julianv said:


> Several people have made this argument for choosing the buyout rather than waiting for a fix. But we could take the buyout, use it to buy another car, and THAT ONE might get stolen or totaled. We still get hosed by the low ball payouts from our insurance companies.


You would be talking $1-2k maximum, not the $12k I would potentially stand to loose. Also, most people will carry Gap Insurance on a newer car for exactly this reason.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

automobiliben said:


> My window sticker.
> 
> You are also forgetting the glass roof that was around $2500. That would put you right at $41k and I remember seeing ones going for more than that. Must be some options I am forgetting...


Ah forgot the ti package was that much, wasn't in the list of options I found. :thumbup:

The roof was 1100, not 2500. 

Nav and roof you are still under 40k, can't think of any other options that were available on top of what you had and those to. I don't see an actual factory built one hitting 43k.



Base price for a 2010 premium plus vs a 2010 JSW sticker still falls inline with the ~5k difference in restitution.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Lord Foul said:


> The lowest value for any car listed in Attachment 1A is about $12.5K for a 2009 Jetta TDI. The claim above is that the $5100 is already built in to this. So what that says is that the Clean NADA trade in value for an average 2009 Jetta TDI in 2015 was about $7.4K. That's not far from the trade in value today. So what this is saying is that the recall pretty much didn't cost the owner of a 2009 Jetta TDI anything at all. Does anyone believe that?


7,400 seems about right for a 2009 jetta sedan at the time.


The difficult thing with trying to compare to a trade in value today is that no one is trading them in so the numbers are going to be skewed. 



And I'm not sure what you mean by the claim above is that the 5100 is built into it, that is the claim of the pending court documents you are reading.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> That car was only about ~31k new base price and limited options if I recall. You could build out a JSW with options for about that as well, 2010 JSWs with all the options were NOT going for 20k before the scandal.
> 
> 2012 loaded JSWs were NOT going for 20k before the scandal on dealer lots.
> 
> ...


Chris, where were you getting the 20k number from? And again, we really cannot count the $5100 or more toward the buyback price since if you keep the car and wait for a fix you get that amount anyway. So in our case the true buyback value is about 12k for our 2011 JSW with 92k on it today. To me it a bit low, considering people on here were asking for 13-14k for the same car last august.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AJB said:


> Chris, where were you getting the 20k number from? And again, we really cannot count the $5100 or more toward the buyback price since if you keep the car and wait for a fix you get that amount anyway. So in our case the true buyback value is about 12k for our 2011 JSW with 92k on it today. To me it a bit low, considering people on here were asking for 13-14k for the same car last august.


20k is a figure someone else used before.

Asking is not the same as getting.

I was asking 13-14k for my 2012 with 80k (just did 80k service, new tires, only 20k on the dpf, and full detail) when this broke, 12k would have taken it on sept 17th of last year and I would have been very happy.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

automobiliben said:


> You would be talking $1-2k maximum, not the $12k I would potentially stand to loose. Also, most people will carry Gap Insurance on a newer car for exactly this reason.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk



This and This. We have gap since its financed, and I could understand if VW is going to pay out the settlement up front for owners who are keeping their cars. But if its an incremental installment thing until the 2018 clock rolls out on their "fix solution" its stupid IMO - EPA has said 85% off the road and bought back (read: crushed) or fixed and compliant with their emissions levels, which needs all 3 gens to be certified for.

So again, my original theory I will stick with - if you think VW is going through the trouble to buy back half of these cars, store them, do multiple years of testing on different catalyst and DPF solutions, software solutions, urea dosing rate (combination of all except urea for the Gen 1's) and then try to make the 2018 deadline of having all these cars fixed (in case I am reading it incorrectly, the fix needs to be performed by 2018, not just approved?) is just going to spend VW into oblivion in my opinion. 

They'd rather take the easy way of buying back and getting the disgruntled owners out, and keeping the vehicles for spare parts, recycling, etc.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> 20k is a figure someone else used before.
> 
> *Asking is not the same as getting.*
> 
> I was asking 13-14k for my 2012 with 80k (just did 80k service, new tires, only 20k on the dpf, and full detail) when this broke, 12k would have taken it on sept 17th of last year and I would have been very happy.


Yes. Agreed. However, people don't pull these number at our their A#$. (OK some people might). But they use KBB or NADA as a guide and other cars being listed for-sale as well.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Ricky Bobby said:


> They'd rather take the easy way of buying back and getting the disgruntled owners out, and keeping the vehicles for spare parts, recycling, etc.


And VW dealers would have a chance of getting them into a new VW - at least the ones that are not too disgruntled.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AJB said:


> Yes. Agreed. However, people don't pull these number at our their A#$. (OK some people might). But they use KBB or NADA as a guide and other cars being listed for-sale as well.


For some reason the other day I wanted to know the prices of like an 04 mustang, instead of going to ebay I ended up on KBB. I selected a car in fair condition since I was looking for a beater project and it had a note something along the lines of "12" of users priced out fair vehicles.

That doesn't necessarily mean that 12% of people have fair condition cars it likely means 75% of people have really unrealistic expectations and priced them out as excellent or whatever other my car is perfect but really isn't option they had available.

So even using KBB as a guide it is quite common for someone to ignore location, mileage, that they are selling it private, and that their car is barely in fair condition when pricing a car and they use misinformation to attempt to not pull a number out of their arse but really they did. This is especially common in the TDI market and really the pages since this pricing came out only show that the unrealistic expectations seem to be way too common.


Vw didn't make the numbers up out of thin air, they did more research than anyone here did to get these figures.


----------



## Lord Foul (Jun 7, 2013)

chris86vw said:


> And I'm not sure what you mean by the claim above is that the 5100 is built into it, that is the claim of the pending court documents you are reading.


The claim was from automobiliben about $5100 being included in the Attachment 1A values, a claim that I can't find any support for in any court documents. $5100 does show up in Attachments 2A, 2B, and 2C, but the wording there is godawful. It also shows up elsewhere in the court documents. For example, see the quote in my signature. My belief is that we don't collectively understand the $5100, and once we do, the calculations and discussions will change quite a bit.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Lord Foul said:


> The claim was from automobiliben about $5100 being included in the Attachment 1A values, a claim that I can't find any support for in any court documents. $5100 does show up in Attachments 2A, 2B, and 2C, but the wording there is godawful. It also shows up elsewhere in the court documents. For example, see the quote in my signature. My belief is that we don't collectively understand the $5100, and once we do, the calculations and discussions will change quite a bit.


I guess I will provide the link again...

http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/crb/vwmdl/proposed-settlement

And some screen shots...



















Interesting that these numbers don't line up exactly (on the low end, the high end is with Options), but they definitely aren't $5100 off...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Lord Foul said:


> The claim was from automobiliben about $5100 being included in the Attachment 1A values, a claim that I can't find any support for in any court documents. $5100 does show up in Attachments 2A, 2B, and 2C, but the wording there is godawful. It also shows up elsewhere in the court documents. For example, see the quote in my signature. My belief is that we don't collectively understand the $5100, and once we do, the calculations and discussions will change quite a bit.


You are using we in a lot of places where it really is just you. I may have missed it but I don't see anyone else saying that the 5100 is additional, only you. 



> Buyback Restitution” means the monetary compensation that Defendant will pay to Eligible Owners who elect a Buyback under the Settlement Program, specified in the first column of Attachments 1A or 1C, modified by any Mileage Adjustment in Attachments 2A through 2C, if applicable.





> D.
> Except as provided in Subsection F and G, and except for Eligible Owners who purchased their Eligible Vehicles after September 18, 2015 but before June 28, 2016, Defendant shall pay each Eligible Owner who elects to participate in the Buyback the sum of:
> 1. The Buyback Restitution;
> 
> ...



F is only about those who may have a total loss on their car while this is being sorted
G is only about those who have loans and the part about paying 130%

Note that the sum does not include an additional $5100.



Then from the vw site documents:

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/Executive Summary of Proposed Settlement Program.pdf



> The range of *total* cash payments is summarized in the chart below.





> Sell your car back to VW plus a cash payment for a *combined total of*:


This then shows 1A buyback column as the example.





That is pretty clear that you are entitled to one figure and one figure only, not that one figure plus some other money.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFDcoX7s6rE



chris86vw said:


> You are using we in a lot of places where it really is just you. I may have missed it but I don't see anyone else saying that the 5100 is additional, only you.
> 
> That is pretty clear that you are entitled to one figure and one figure only, not that one figure plus some other money.


----------



## Lord Foul (Jun 7, 2013)

chris86vw said:


> You are using we in a lot of places where it really is just you. I may have missed it but I don't see anyone else saying that the 5100 is additional, only you.


The phrase "My belief is that we..." applies to me and my beliefs and not to all of you. You all can believe anything you'd like to, including that I'm completely wrong.

I don't think executive summary that automobiliben points to proves what he thinks it does, and it sure doesn't resolve the problems with Attachments 1A, 2A,2B, and 2C, but it does provide a more definite date this can be resolved...

"Beginning July 26, 2016, you can see the exact Buyback and Approved Emissions Modification payments for your car by visiting www.VWCourtSettlement.com and entering your Vehicle Identification Number (VIN), mileage, and other required information."

So we'll all find out how wrong I am 19 days from now.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Lord Foul said:


> I don't think executive summary that automobiliben points to proves what he thinks it does, and it sure doesn't resolve the problems with Attachments 1A, 2A,2B, and 2C, but it does provide a more definite date this can be resolved...


So you are going to ignore what the court defines as buyback restitution? 

And then what the course says you are entitled to?

And then also the second document that corroborates the court documents and that executive order?


There is quite a bit of documentation backing up the opposite of your interpretation.



I don't know what you mean by problems with the attachments.


----------



## Lord Foul (Jun 7, 2013)

chris86vw said:


> So you are going to ignore what the court defines as buyback restitution?
> 
> And then what the course says you are entitled to?


Why are these two different questions? You're asking basically the same thing twice. And both questions are nonsensical, as I can't possibly ignore whatever the buyback values end up being.



chris86vw said:


> And then also the second document that corroborates the court documents and that executive order?
> 
> 
> There is quite a bit of documentation backing up the opposite of your interpretation.


You'll need to be more specific than "the second document" or "that executive order." I'm not aware of any executive orders. Without specificity, this is hand waving.



chris86vw said:


> I don't know what you mean by problems with the attachments.


Yeah, I'm getting that. I'd link to previous discussion, but you're not giving me any reason to bother looking it up.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Lord Foul said:


> Why are these two different questions? You're asking basically the same thing twice.


Actually they are two entirely different things which is why I asked two different questions.





> You'll need to be more specific than "the second document" or "that executive order." I'm not aware of any executive orders. Without specificity, this is hand waving.


Sorry executive summary, and the second document is the one I linked to but you have ignored entirely including the very specific sections that clarify what you are entitled to, which was not part of that second document but very clearly stated in the main court document.




> Yeah, I'm getting that. I'd link to previous discussion, but you're not giving me any reason to bother looking it up.


You aren't, my point was there is no problem with them and they are quite easily understood. You also don't need to look up the discussion where everyone disagreed with you.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW to pay $86M in civil penalties to California over emissions violations*



> LOS ANGELES -- Volkswagen AG will pay an additional $86 million in penalties to California over its diesel emissions violations, on top of a settlement of about $15 billion that the automaker reached with U.S. officials last week, state Attorney General Kamala Harris said.
> 
> The scandal has disrupted Volkswagen's global business and sullied its reputation.
> 
> ...


----------



## ICUH8N (Mar 31, 2003)

* The latest settlement between officials for Volkswagen and California, the nation's most populous state, provides for $76 million to be paid to Harris' office to defray costs relating to investigation and litigation of the emissions scandal, according to court documents.*


Am I reading this wrong or is Harris (who is running for senate) office getting 76 million dollars?:sly::banghead: something is definitely ****ed up about this.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

ICUH8N said:


> * The latest settlement between officials for Volkswagen and California, the nation's most populous state, provides for $76 million to be paid to Harris' office to defray costs relating to investigation and litigation of the emissions scandal, according to court documents.*
> 
> 
> Am I reading this wrong or is Harris (who is running for senate) office getting 76 million dollars?:sly::banghead: something is definitely ****ed up about this.


The Attorney Generals office shouldn't get the funds to cover the cost of litigation? :sly:

Not reading it wrong but sounds like reading too much into it.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

ICUH8N said:


> * The latest settlement between officials for Volkswagen and California, the nation's most populous state, provides for $76 million to be paid to Harris' office to defray costs relating to investigation and litigation of the emissions scandal, according to court documents.*
> 
> Am I reading this wrong or is Harris (who is running for senate) office getting 76 million dollars?:sly::banghead: something is definitely ****ed up about this.


What do you mean? I'm sure it really cost $76 million to investigate. I mean, it's expensive to send email and draw up some PDFs asking for information. Those meeting rooms certainly don't pay for themselves either. This is totally a legitimate expense, I'm sure. It has nothing to do with politics, move along.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

ICUH8N said:


> * The latest settlement between officials for Volkswagen and California, the nation's most populous state, provides for $76 million to be paid to Harris' office to defray costs relating to investigation and litigation of the emissions scandal, according to court documents.*
> 
> 
> Am I reading this wrong or is Harris (who is running for senate) office getting 76 million dollars?:sly::banghead: something is definitely ****ed up about this.


Yes, you're reading it wrong.

The attorney general's office collects the settlement on behalf of the State of California. The attorney general's office is the conduit, not the beneficiary. The money will go the the State of California, not its Office of the Attorney General.

When you go to Taco John's, order up something heinous, and give the money to the guy at the register, he does not get to keep it. He gives the money to another guy, who puts it in a bank, which assigns the money to the account of the restaurant's owner.

Congratulations to Attorney General Harris (who is running for senate) and the people of California.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW's diesel fix for Audi Q5 makes NOx worse, consumer group says*



> BRUSSELS -- Volkswagen Group's technical fix for the Audi Q5, one of the vehicles involved in its diesel-emissions cheating scandal did not reduce emissions in a new test, a European consumer group said.
> 
> VW has argued that the fix for the 8.5 million vehicles affected by its cheating in Europe would make them compliant with EU regulations, avoiding the need to compensate owners.
> 
> ...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Autonews.com said:


> Last week, EU Industry Commissioner Elzbieta Bienkowska took carmakers to task, saying they stretched the legal bounds, for instance with emissions control systems that switch off at below 17 degrees Celsius.
> 
> "That means in Northern Finland you drive without emission control almost all year-long," she said at an industry gathering. "What you do is you make the exception the general rule."


While it's no surprise that the EU "fix" for VW 2.0 TDIs turns out to be total garbage, the real news is up above: the revelation that EU emissions standards are so weak that it's technically legal to drive with the emissions system disabled practically year-round. This stuff is what is going to make diesels go bye-bye from the marketplace and the gasoline particle filters coming soon to exhaust systems (and the cheating and customer disabling that will soon follow) are going to be the death of gasoline engines. Electrics are the only ones that will survive in the small vehicle market.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

A little off topic, but is it possible for VW to NOT buyback one of the vehicles outlined in the recall? I ran my VIN on their website previously and they said the car is eligible. I understand that the buybacks may not start happening as soon as October and may be delayed a bit..
Just need a bit of assurance..before I go out and do something dumb financially.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> While it's no surprise that the EU "fix" for VW 2.0 TDIs turns out to be total garbage, the real news is up above: the revelation that EU emissions standards are so weak that it's technically legal to drive with the emissions system disabled practically year-round. This stuff is what is going to make diesels go bye-bye from the marketplace and the gasoline particle filters coming soon to exhaust systems (and the cheating and customer disabling that will soon follow) are going to be the death of gasoline engines. Electrics are the only ones that will survive in the small vehicle market.


This happens to EPA certified diesels too. Perhaps not at 17C but at normal enough temperatures that diesels operating in Canada are putting out 2-5 times the amount of legal NOx emissions about 6-months of the year.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

PolishSasquatch said:


> A little off topic, but is it possible for VW to NOT buyback one of the vehicles outlined in the recall? I ran my VIN on their website previously and they said the car is eligible. I understand that the buybacks may not start happening as soon as October and may be delayed a bit..
> Just need a bit of assurance..before I go out and do something dumb financially.


If the current plan is approved at the end of July then VW is required in 90 days to start buying back cars. It cannot be delayed according the current plan.


VW has to buy back or fix 85% of the cars, you have a right to have it bought back as long as the titled isn't flagged as rebuilt, totaled etc. 


They cannot randomly refuse to buy back your car if that is what you are asking.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Hajduk said:


> This happens to EPA certified diesels too. Perhaps not at 17C but at normal enough temperatures that diesels operating in Canada are putting out 2-5 times the amount of legal NOx emissions about 6-months of the year.


Some searching says it's 10C in Canada, if the Mercedes diesel lawsuit is anything to go by. Ridiculous - and an illustration of the challenges of managing hundreds of millions of briefly used points of combustion versus a few thousand (power plants) that run for 6-24 hours continuously. There was a whole thread of argument in one of the other threads about how Ford's powerstroke diesel can have a DPF regen cycle that lasts 30-40 minutes. So many people only drive their vehicle for 5-10 minutes at a time, sometimes not even getting everything up to full temperature on a diesel in the first place, much less hot enough to start, run, and complete a DPF regen cycle. Power plants don't have this problem because they run for many hours or even days/weeks at a time.

Even if somebody hates how strict pollution controls are, it's hard to ignore the fact it's monumentally more difficult to make an engine clean when it only runs for 5-30 minutes at a time versus one that fires up only once per day and runs for 6-12 hours, or even just runs continuously. Commuter cars will have to be the first to make the move to EVs, as we are seeing. Long-haul trucking and industrial diesels are in ways easier to deal with since they are run under load for hours at a time, giving plenty of time for the emissions controls to work as intended.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

chris86vw said:


> They cannot randomly refuse to buy back your car if that is what you are asking.


But what if the suspension is broke and the hood is rusted?


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

Just got the notice for emissions testing for my Golf 

Of course I wouldn't be worried (since, you know, cheating), but my CEL is on for the P2015 intake manifold flapper issue. Hoping the buyback thing gets wrapped up quickly - test due by end of August, it will fail, then I have 60 days for a retest before I start incurring fines. Hoping the car will be gone before I have to put any work/money into fixing this.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

BRealistic said:


> But what if the suspension is broke and the hood is rusted?


level of dapperness not listed as a reason to not buy it back.

Must come in under its own power, that power must be one of the 3 generations of 2.0 TDIs involved, cannot have already had a title listed as salvage blah blah blah before or after a certain date or something like that.

All others must be bought back or repaired if the owner chooses.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

My vin is branded as salvage, car was hit in the rear and fixed in ontario. a guy bought it, then i bought it off him, titled it in MI as salvage and have been driving it ever since. Great car. But the salvage title has me worried about the buyback, so I am hoping that since the VW software said this vin is eligible.

when I enter my vin it says this: 

"The VIN entered is included in the terms of the proposed settlements. Both Vehicle and Owner/Lessee eligibility stipulations apply in order to participate in the Settlements. "

what are the "stipulations"? I know one clause said it has to have the original 2.0 tdi engine-which it does. 


EDIT: i see someone said it cant have salvage title after a certain date. We bought and imported this salvage title TDI in March 2015. 



chris86vw said:


> If the current plan is approved at the end of July then VW is required in 90 days to start buying back cars. It cannot be delayed according the current plan.
> 
> 
> VW has to buy back or fix 85% of the cars, you have a right to have it bought back as long as the titled isn't flagged as rebuilt, totaled etc.
> ...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

PolishSasquatch said:


> My vin is branded as salvage, car was hit in the rear and fixed in ontario. a guy bought it, then i bought it off him, titled it in MI as salvage and have been driving it ever since. Great car. But the salvage title has me worried about the buyback, so I am hoping that since the VW software said this vin is eligible.
> 
> when I enter my vin it says this:
> 
> ...





> “Operable” means that the vehicle so described can be driven under its own 2.0*liter TDI engine power. A vehicle is not Operable if it had a branded title of “Assembled,” “Dismantled,” “Flood,” “Junk,” “Rebuilt,” “Reconstructed,” or “Salvaged” on September 18, 2015,* and *was acquired by any person or entity from a junkyard or salvage yard after September 18, 2015.


You are probably fine as long as you had it registered and on the road before sept 18th 2015. The AND is the important part there which should clear you. 

Seems they are just trying to prevent people from pulling cars from junkyards and rebuilding them just enough to drive into a VW dealer, makes sense. 

Since those details may change before the end of the month probably hard to get anyone to give you an answer before then, but early August someone would likely be able to answer this for you.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

^that makes perfect sense. 
Thanks.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

veedubBiker said:


> Just got the notice for emissions testing for my Golf
> 
> Of course I wouldn't be worried (since, you know, cheating), but my CEL is on for the P2015 intake manifold flapper issue. Hoping the buyback thing gets wrapped up quickly - test due by end of August, it will fail, then I have 60 days for a retest before I start incurring fines. Hoping the car will be gone before I have to put any work/money into fixing this.


So in other words, you could test it on August 31st, fail, and then _hopefully_ the buyback will be approved and you'll be able to get the car disposed of before October 31st, correct? I see your dilemma - it seems like nonsense that drivers could have their registration held hostage while they are waiting for VW to approve the buyback scheme to begin, but unfortunately that's just the way it goes.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

AZGolf said:


> So in other words, you could test it on August 31st, fail, and then _hopefully_ the buyback will be approved and you'll be able to get the car disposed of before October 31st, correct? I see your dilemma - it seems like nonsense that drivers could have their registration held hostage while they are waiting for VW to approve the buyback scheme to begin, but unfortunately that's just the way it goes.


His registration is not being held up because of VW, in his state or any state for that matter - I can only imagine how many TDI's had registrations renewed since the scandal broke - if you re-read his post he said his MIL is on for the intake manifold flapper P2015 and he doesn't want to fix it - so he is going to go and fail and he would want to get it bought back with the MIL lit. He will fail inspection for the MIL, not dieselgate lol

Of course, to the best of my knowledge the flapper can get fixed with a $65 Dieselgeek part but I understand if he doesnt want to fix it now.


----------



## LieutenantShinySides (May 4, 2007)

veedubBiker said:


> Just got the notice for emissions testing for my Golf
> 
> Of course I wouldn't be worried (since, you know, cheating), but my CEL is on for the P2015 intake manifold flapper issue. Hoping the buyback thing gets wrapped up quickly - test due by end of August, it will fail, then I have 60 days for a retest before I start incurring fines. Hoping the car will be gone before I have to put any work/money into fixing this.


If you find yourself needing to repair your intake flap before you are able to sell it back to VW, try this: http://www.dieselgeek.com/P2015_Repair_Bracket_p/egr-p2015.htm

I did it last year when my CEL came on for P2015 and it worked great. It's $65 and an hour worth of your time. Just a thought.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

Thanks guys, yeah I'm aware of the DG fix...found that real quick after the shop scanned it and quoted me some absurd number for repair because they "needed to replace the whole intake manifold". :facepalm:

Just not real interested in putting any more time and money into this car than is absolutely necessary at this point.

As far as registration being held, yes if I fail emissions inspection, eventually that will prevent me from re-registering my car, but I think I'm good for another 8-9 months on that front.

On the other hand, $20 for the initial emissions test + potential $20 fine if I don't get it retested in time prior to buyback being implemented means I'm almost to the cost of the part.

Likelihood of continued procrastination is high.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

veedubBiker said:


> Likelihood of continued procrastination is high.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

veedubBiker said:


> *As far as registration being held, yes if I fail emissions inspection, eventually that will prevent me from re-registering my car,* but I think I'm good for another 8-9 months on that front.


I understand your statement in bold - however, AZGolf below your original post noted that it was somehow Dieselgate not finding a "fix" was keeping the car from being registered, which is false - your eventual not being able to re-register the car because of emissions failure is due to you not fixing a non-direct issue with your MIL - the cars will pass emissions inspections now in all 50 states assuming in CARB states or even just California, you got the April 2014 software update (prior to Dieselgate)


----------



## Eye Candy White (Nov 9, 2006)

I'm going to be in an interesting (read: likely bad) situation with my wife's 15' GSW TDI SEL.

We didn't put much down on the loan, so right now our loan to value looks like this:
Loan: $24,xxx left outstanding
Value: ~$19,200 on trade-in per KBB

Adding insult to injury, I had right around $1,000 worth of clear film installed on the entire front end of this car about a week into ownership, because we know my wife's commute up/down I-75 here in Ohio killed the front end of her previous car, and we anticipated keeping this thing for the "long haul."

We were thinking we'd keep the car, but from what I've read here, it sounds unlikely that we'd be able to beyond September 2018, and that we'd put at risk receiving hush money from VW.

Would we be good candidates for the stipulation in this lawsuit around VW guaranteeing 1xx% of the loan value? Is there any restitution for installed accessories (the $1K in clear film, the chrome VW exhaust tips, etc.), or is that just piling onto our negative equity in the car at this point?

I've put a call into my insurance agent to talk policy on the car (sounds like we have gap insurance on as standard, though I'm waiting to chat with her on the exact details in the event that the car is totaled prior to all of this becoming settled).

Definitely feeling a bit burned at the moment - if we can get our hush money without waiting until September 2018, it might be our best course of action. OR, I guess I would settle for getting into a new AllTrack if we can somehow get out of this car without taking a bath on things.

Thoughts on my situation?

Can't wait for this to all be resolved/over - I'm sure there are plenty of situations like mine hanging over people's heads out there.

Best,
JP


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Eye Candy White said:


> We were thinking we'd keep the car, but from what I've read here, it sounds unlikely that we'd be able to beyond September 2018, and that we'd put at risk receiving hush money from VW.


You can keep the car, don't even get it fixed, and you will still get the owner compensation.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

I'm not planning on doing this...but how much of the car has to be present to be bought back? I mean, can I strip it down (interior parts, lights, put on steelies) And replace doors/hoods with junk yard parts? The sell the good ones and my really nice interior?

Again, I have no plans to do this, just wondering if it possible.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Eye Candy White said:


> I'm going to be in an interesting (read: likely bad) situation with my wife's 15' GSW TDI SEL.
> 
> We didn't put much down on the loan, so right now our loan to value looks like this:
> Loan: $24,xxx left outstanding
> ...


Uh, you're going to get over $30k for your car if your sell it back. Not sure how you think you're screwed.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Silly_me said:


> You can keep the car, don't even get it fixed, and you will still get the owner compensation.


Provide a source for this!

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/e...nt Agreement/Exhibit 3 - Long Form Notice.pdf



> Under the US/CA Settlement, owners and lessees who choose to exclude themselves (“opt out”) from the
> Class Action Settlement can still obtain an Approved Emissions Modification at no cost if one becomes
> available, but they will not be eligible for the Restitution Payments or Buyback provided for by the Class
> Action Settlement.





> *Note: The parties anticipate that the generation 3 vehicles will require a two-dealer-visit modification
> process. Two-thirds (2/3) of the cash payment will be paid upon the first visit to the dealer, and one-third
> (1/3) of the cash payment will be paid upon the second visit to the dealer. A free oil change with
> respective engine oil filter will also be provided on the second visit to the dealer.


I think that Silly Me is related to Lord Foul...


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

automobiliben said:


> Provide a source for this!
> 
> https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/e...nt Agreement/Exhibit 3 - Long Form Notice.pdf
> 
> I think that Silly Me is related to Lord Foul...


Thanks for posting that! So what happens to the Gen 1 and 2 vehicles? Because thats what I'm really wondering here as its been mentioned there probably is no practical fix - Gen 3 vehicles require possibly 2 dealer visits ok great, but the Gen 1 and 2's have no fix in the works yet? And the EPA won't clear the TDI's as "fixed" until they have all 3 generations approved - I've said it once and I'll say it again I want to be DONE with this thing and over with and on with my life, I don't want to know what mandatory fix I have to get that VW would keep the "dont sue us" money hostage - in my opinion we'd be doing them a favor by keeping our car so it should be paid up front.

If they are going to dick around with this its only gonna piss off the owners who like their cars, even more.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Thanks for posting that! So what happens to the Gen 1 and 2 vehicles? Because thats what I'm really wondering here as its been mentioned there probably is no practical fix - Gen 3 vehicles require possibly 2 dealer visits ok great, but the Gen 1 and 2's have no fix in the works yet? And the EPA won't clear the TDI's as "fixed" until they have all 3 generations approved - I've said it once and I'll say it again I want to be DONE with this thing and over with and on with my life, I don't want to know what mandatory fix I have to get that VW would keep the "dont sue us" money hostage - in my opinion we'd be doing them a favor by keeping our car so it should be paid up front.
> 
> If they are going to dick around with this its only gonna piss off the owners who like their cars, even more.


Yep, I think you read between the lines correctly. From what has been posted (with legit sources) basically says the chips are stacked against VW in favor of "forced" buy-backs...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

automobiliben said:


> Yep, I think you read between the lines correctly. From what has been posted (with legit sources) basically says the chips are stacked against VW in favor of "forced" buy-backs...
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


Yep - it pretty much sucks - people can get buy backs starting in October but if we like our cars and just want to keep them we don't get a damn thing - even if I wanted nothing to do with the settlement they'd probably still hound my ass to turn it in or do something with it by 2018, because if more than 15% are still on the road un-modified, the EPA fines VW from all that i've read.

So what sounded like a great idea in the beginning (keep your car and get a small cash settlement and an optional modification down the line) has now become keep your car, sit and wait for us for 2 years because we'll be so overwhelmed with buybacks, and then in 2018 when we don't have a fix ready and CARB won't certify all 3 generations, we'll REALLY need to buy your car back then.

This is getting a bigger headache by the day IMO.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

All of these quotations are still preliminary until the 7/26/16 meeting. So perhaps some things will change...

The biggest question I have is, will you want the Car after the Modification? I think that there is a lot of assumption that the Modification will make it the same car after, and that is a huge mistake I think...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

automobiliben said:


> All of these quotations are still preliminary until the 7/26/16 meeting. So perhaps some things will change...
> 
> The biggest question I have is, will you want the Car after the Modification? I think that there is a lot of assumption that the Modification will make it the same car after, and that is a huge mistake I think...
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


Well me personally - I'm of the mind that if it can be performed it can be reversed - in my case I'll be living in a non emissions state at that point so I'd probably remove any hardware added (bigger DPF, catalyst, etc) and put in the Rawtek exhaust I've wanted, and get the car re-flashed with a Malone tune - 

However, I need to know what they are going to do - if its just a software patch and a different DPF, sure I'd consider it (and if its not that invasive I would even venture to possibly KEEP the hardware on there since its warrantied for 120k miles) - but if they are hacking in a urea tank on a JSW which was never designed for it with Independent Rear Suspension, I will have some serious doubts about keeping this car.


----------



## euro16v (Dec 12, 1999)

Silly_me said:


> You can keep the car, don't even get it fixed, and you will still get the owner compensation.


Not according to current court documentation, you can keep your unfixed car only if you withdraw from the settlement. That means VW will not give you the $5100+ compensation money unless you sell it back to VW at that point (if there never is a fix approved).


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

euro16v said:


> Not according to current court documentation, you can keep your unfixed car only if you withdraw from the settlement. That means VW will not give you the $5100+ compensation money unless you sell it back to VW at that point (if there never is a fix approved).


Withdrawing from the class has nothing to do with being able to keep an unfixed car or not. You would probably only go through the trouble of withdrawing from it to attempt to have your own lawsuit against them. If you actually withdraw you are no longer entitled to anything in the settlement including VWs obligation to buy it back.

You can remain in the class, never get your car fixed and never get paid, you'd simply not act on your rights of being a part of the class.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

PolishSasquatch said:


> A little off topic, but is it possible for VW to NOT buyback one of the vehicles outlined in the recall?.


Couple points:


Your post is squarely on topic.
There is no recall.
There is a buyback.
There is also an offer of a free modification plus a cash payment.
None of this is mandatory for owners.
All of this is mandatory for VW.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

chris86vw said:


> Withdrawing from the class has nothing to do with being able to keep an unfixed car or not. You would probably only go through the trouble of withdrawing from it to attempt to have your own lawsuit against them. If you actually withdraw you are no longer entitled to anything in the settlement including VWs obligation to buy it back.
> 
> You can remain in the class, never get your car fixed and never get paid, you'd simply not act on your rights of being a part of the class.


Precisely :thumbup:


----------



## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

So I have only read through the last few pages and some others here and there, will VW cut you a check for the buyback amount and/or compensation, or is it only good for a trade-in? If so new and used vehicles?

Thanks


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

ticketed2much said:


> So I have only read through the last few pages and some others here and there, will VW cut you a check for the buyback amount and/or compensation, or is it only good for a trade-in? If so new and used vehicles?
> 
> Thanks


It's a check. No need to buy a new car or any car from VW...


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

E CODE said:


> It's a check. No need to buy a new car or any car from VW...


Albeit the link I posted above does say that VW is allowed to provide you incentives to purchase another VW. But no, you get money you can use anywhere.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

automobiliben said:


> Provide a source for this!
> 
> https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/e...nt Agreement/Exhibit 3 - Long Form Notice.pdf


I'd facepalm you, but I've been told I'm not allowed to be a meany anymore.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> I'd facepalm you, but I've been told I'm not allowed to be a meany anymore.


You would only be face palming yourself. 

If you elect to do the modifications and not the buyback you do not get your money until the modifications are made, this is well detailed right down to the time period for them to release a physical check vs the time for an ACH transfer to be initiated. For gen3 cars (MQB golf/GSW/A3) there seems to be a split payment available with a part of the way fix paying 2/3 and a full fix paying 1/3 but it is not entirely clearly what that is just yet. 


This is outlined in more detail in the ~255 page document found on the FTC site.

There is absolutely zero indication that any modification compensation will be made if no repairs are made, I was mistaken on this myself at first until I looked further into it. There is a cut of date that if you previously chose to do the modifications but one is not made available you can automatically switch to the buyback. That is my plan for my 2015.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

automobiliben said:


> Albeit the link I posted above does say that VW is allowed to provide you incentives to purchase another VW. But no, you get money you can use anywhere.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


I wish the new tiggy was here or I'd give the GF some incentives to ditch her stupid (but really reliable and no reason for me to technically dislike it) Sentra and work that in with my buyback. Current Tig has some insane lease deals but really its a lifted mk5 with a weird half new engine that I just don't want to deal with.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

chris86vw said:


> You would only be face palming yourself.


Like that would be the first time. So, a check won't be cut until the car is fixed eh?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Silly_me said:


> Like that would be the first time. So, a check won't be cut until the car is fixed eh?


VW has to fix or buyback 85% of the vehicles. What incentive would people have to get their car fixed if VW just handed them $5100 prior to fixing it? People are generally happy with the way they run now (aside for a little more pollution). Why would you want to let VW screw it up if you already have the money in hand?


----------



## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

E CODE said:


> It's a check. No need to buy a new car or any car from VW...


Thats awesome, thanks for the info.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

spockcat said:


> VW has to fix or buyback 85% of the vehicles. What incentive would people have to get their car fixed if VW just handed them $5100 prior to fixing it?


Seems counter to Breyer's initial demand. Where is the language that states if you refuse a fix or a buyback that you are by default opting out of the class action suit? All I can find is:



da link said:


> On July 26, 2016 (the date of the preliminary approval hearing), the settlement website will allow class
> members to enter their Vehicle Identification Number (“VIN”) and mileage to see the expected Vehicle
> Value and Owner (or Lessee) *Restitution Payment* for their vehicle, based on its model year, trim line,
> actual equipment, and options. To see an estimate of the range of compensation you might receive
> through the Class Action Settlement, you can review the attached tables.


Bolded is mine. Seems that the restitution payment, which is neither a buyback nor a fix, is gonna be available fix or buyback notwithstanding.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Silly_me said:


> Seems counter to Breyer's initial demand. Where is the language that states if you refuse a fix or a buyback that you are by default opting out of the class action suit? All I can find is:
> 
> 
> 
> Bolded is mine. Seems that the restitution payment, which is neither a buyback nor a fix, is gonna be available fix or buyback notwithstanding.


You are missing the keyword of "expected". This is basically saying you will get the official "quote". It makes no mention of money being exchanged.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## euro16v (Dec 12, 1999)

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/e...nt Agreement/Exhibit 3 - Long Form Notice.pdf

Read the end of 32 and 39. It clearly states if there is no emissions fix, you may choose the buyback or opt out of the class action. So no, you will not get paid if you simply choose to never get your car fixed.

Which understandably a lot of people will probably choose to do. I know my friend with his 2010 JSW TDI with 190k miles doesn't want the buyback because it's a paltry $11k, and will probably not take the fix either unless it doesn't affect mpg and performance, he would rather keep the car as is until it dies a proper TDI death. So I'd bet VW will have to increase their offer if it comes down to it to get that final 15%+ of the cars fixed/off the road.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

euro16v said:


> Read the end of 32 and 39. It clearly states if there is no emissions fix, you may choose the buyback or opt out of the class action. So no, you will not get paid if you simply choose to never get your car fixed.


39 states: 



> If no emissions modification is approved for your Eligible Vehicle by May 1, 2018, you will be notified.
> You may then choose a Buyback, but must submit a complete and valid claim by no later than September
> 1, 2018 and obtain your remedy by no later than December 30, 2018. Alternatively, you may choose to
> withdraw from the Class Action Settlement altogether, by June 1, 2018.


Interesting, I wonder how enforceable it will be as it sounds like the restitution will be paid out before 2018....... unless restitution is not payable until you choose buyback OR a fix is available, which isn't bloody likely for the most part.


----------



## euro16v (Dec 12, 1999)

Silly_me said:


> 39 states:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting, I wonder how enforceable it will be as it sounds like the restitution will be paid out before 2018....... unless restitution is not payable until you choose buyback OR a fix is available, which isn't bloody likely for the most part.


EPA is enforcing it with a $100M penalty for every 1% short of the 85% they fall. When it comes down to it that's roughly 4,850 cars for every 1%, which if you take that $100M penalty and divide it by 4,850 it's about $20K per car penalty. It would be cheaper for VW to increase the buyback to entice more people to sell back than to pay those additional whopping fines. We'll see when the deal becomes finalized on the 26th.

In the end VW is only doing this to cover their ass as far as the EPA goes, because in my opinion they sure are not out to satisfy us. I've written to the court my opinions on the buyback amounts and I hope everyone else does as well that's dissatisfied with the numbers from these initial documents.


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

Anyone involved in the Dieselgate mess should read this document carefully. It answers many of the questions that have been floating around:

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/PSC_Settlement_Agreement/Settlement%20Agreement/Exhibit%203%20-%20Long%20Form%20Notice.pdf

In particular, note page 18, which specifies expected dates for submission of a proposed fix for each vehicle type.

Note also the time limits for opting out of the settlement, on pages 22-23. This is relevent if you want to pursue your own lawsuit, individually, or in a separate class action.

Page 25 specifies how to file an objection, without excluding yourself from the settlement. This should probably be done very soon, since the finalized terms will be announced on July 26. But I'm wondering about the status of those of us who do not opt out of the settlement, but choose to refuse the buyback. If we also choose to refuse the fix (or, if as I suspect, there is no fix for some of the cars), can we still file an objection at a later date? If VW is approaching the 2018 deadline and not reaching the 85% threshold for acceptance of buyback or fix, it will be interesting to see if they sweeten their offers.

Seems to me that, for some of us, especially those with older cars and who drive less than 1k miles/month, a wait-and-see strategy might be the best choice.


----------



## R Salesman (Jun 13, 2010)

julianv said:


> Seems to me that, for some of us, especially those with older cars and who drive less than 1k miles/month, a wait-and-see strategy might be the best choice.


Until your car gets totaled/stolen. You'll get way more opting for the buyback than you'll ever get from an insurance payout. Never knowing when an accident could occur, and knowing that you're gambling with several thousand dollars . . . those aren't the kind of odds I'm comfortable with. Others have different comfort thresholds, obviously.


----------



## Hot Wheels (Oct 31, 2006)

*Why wait*

Screw the wait. I kicked my '09 TDi to the crub and bought a '16 Passat R-Line. Whenever the mess is done, the TDi will be gone. In the meantime, I'll enjoy the new ride.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Hot Wheels said:


> Screw the wait. I kicked my '09 TDi to the crub and bought a '16 Passat R-Line. Whenever the mess is done, the TDi will be gone. In the meantime, I'll enjoy the new ride.


Congrats!

I am about to pull the trigger on a Chevy SS Sedan I think, can't deal with a 2-yo and a 37 week pregnant wife and only 1 car that can carry the family. The A3 is parked till the buy back, I just need to figure out what to do with 5 cars, lol...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## vw_nc_dude (Jan 29, 2012)

Hot Wheels said:


> Screw the wait. I kicked my '09 TDi to the crub and bought a '16 Passat R-Line. Whenever the mess is done, the TDi will be gone. In the meantime, I'll enjoy the new ride.


:thumbup:


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Chevy SS purchase approved! But I'm biased because I own one. . Enjoy.


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

R Salesman said:


> julianv said:
> 
> 
> > Seems to me that, for some of us, especially those with older cars and who drive less than 1k miles/month, a wait-and-see strategy might be the best choice.
> ...


As I've said in earlier posts, this is a totally bogus argument for those of us with older cars. In a buyback , we might get about 17k for our 2010 Jetta TDI, which is in great condition, paid off, and which we planned to keep for another 10 years. We don't want another car payment. The 17k will not buy us a car with equivalent drivability, performance, and fuel economy. If we accept the buyback we will end up buying something worse. The odds of the replacement car being totaled or stolen are no different than for the Jetta. If we file a claim for the replacement car, the insurance company will give us a further depreciated value, forcing us to buy something even worse than the car that was worse than the Jetta.

How is that a win?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

julianv said:


> As I've said in earlier posts, this is a totally bogus argument for those of us with older cars. In a buyback , we might get about 17k for our 2010 Jetta TDI, which is in great condition, paid off, and which we planned to keep for another 10 years. We don't want another car payment. The 17k will not buy us a car with equivalent drivability, performance, and fuel economy.


Prius or Prius V. You can _easily_ find one just as nice as your 6-7 year old VW for $17k and the fuel economy will be significantly higher with far higher reliability too.


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> Prius or Prius V. You can _easily_ find one just as nice as your 6-7 year old VW for $17k and the fuel economy will be significantly higher with far higher reliability too.


Did you notice the words "performance" and "drivability" in my previous post? The Prius is a nice choice for people who want a transportation appliance. But it's not in the same league as our Jetta, if you want a driver's car.

BTW, in the 6 years we have had the Jetta, it's reliability has been great. No complaints.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

julianv said:


> Did you notice the words "performance" and "drivability" in my previous post? The Prius is a nice choice for people who want a transportation appliance. But it's not in the same league as our Jetta, if you want a driver's car.
> 
> BTW, in the 6 years we have had the Jetta, it's reliability has been great. No complaints.


You can't find a replacement because the car you have is illegal for anyone to build using current technology at the time. VW shouldn't have even built it.

Eventually someone may build a car that can do everything the JSW does using new technology. But it will cost a lot more than you will get for your old car.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Would it be possible to do something like a TSI swap and just drop off your TDI engine on the dealership's door step? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

julianv said:


> Did you notice the words "performance" and "drivability" in my previous post? The Prius is a nice choice for people who want a transportation appliance. But it's not in the same league as our Jetta, if you want a driver's car.
> 
> BTW, in the 6 years we have had the Jetta, it's reliability has been great. No complaints.


The closest you'll come to your Jetta is the Cruze turbodiesel. Reliability and parts availability has been spotty though, IMO.

Otherwise, if you're happy with VW, why not buy a 1.8 TSI Golf Sportwagen? 90% of your Jetta's fuel economy and an even better chassis.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

julianv said:


> Did you notice the words "performance" and "drivability" in my previous post? The Prius is a nice choice for people who want a transportation appliance. But it's not in the same league as our Jetta, if you want a driver's car.
> 
> BTW, in the 6 years we have had the Jetta, it's reliability has been great. No complaints.


Here's a thread with a list of suggestions from Consumer Reports, and they specifically named the Toyota Prius as the best alternative to the Jetta TDI. They have other options though, click the thread and check it out.


----------



## BudPytko (Apr 22, 2012)

AZGolf said:


> Here's a thread with a list of suggestions from Consumer Reports, and they specifically named the Toyota Prius as the best alternative to the Jetta TDI. They have other options though, click the thread and check it out.


Nice link AZ! It is ALMOST what I am planning to do at the end of this month. Gonna park the Passat and get a 2015 Lincoln MKZ Hybrid. Almost exactly the same miles per tank of fuel and gas is cheaper than diesel (and less stinky). More room in the Z too and LOTS more comfortable. The one I have on hold is almost exactly the amount I'm getting back from VW too.... but 3 years newer with a 100,000 mile warranty. Will pay back my bank account with I get the VW buyout $.


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

julianv said:


> Did you notice the words "performance" and "drivability" in my previous post? The Prius is a nice choice for people who want a transportation appliance. But it's not in the same league as our Jetta, if you want a driver's car.
> 
> BTW, in the 6 years we have had the Jetta, it's reliability has been great. No complaints.


So I guess you haven't driven the new Prius or a Volt?


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

julianv said:


> As I've said in earlier posts, this is a totally bogus argument for those of us with older cars. In a buyback , we might get about 17k for our 2010 Jetta TDI, which is in great condition, paid off, and which we planned to keep for another 10 years. We don't want another car payment. The 17k will not buy us a car with equivalent drivability, performance, and fuel economy. If we accept the buyback we will end up buying something worse. The odds of the replacement car being totaled or stolen are no different than for the Jetta. If we file a claim for the replacement car, the insurance company will give us a further depreciated value, forcing us to buy something even worse than the car that was worse than the Jetta.
> 
> How is that a win?


I think you missed the point.

Right now, if your car is totaled, you get only what the insurance company will pay you. That amount will be for the current (depreciated) value of the car, and is almost guaranteed to be far lower than the buyback.

Irrespective of what you may think of the situation, that is as it is.

The risk of it being totaled before the car can be purchased back is why I am minimizing how much I drive my car. I plan to take it off the road as soon as is practical.


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

biturbowagon said:


> I think you missed the point.


No, I understood it. But I wonder if you read and understood my response. In any case, I don't want to get argumentative about this. Each of us has to make a decision that is appropriate for our own needs and priorities.

I suspect that many of the people on this forum are motorheads who often buy or trade-in cars. My SO and I both appreciate a good ride, but we prefer to find something we like, keep it in good condition, and drive it for a long time (10 to 15 years). That's why she is reluctant to give up her Jetta. But we are open to other possibilities. I appreciate the suggestions that people have posted to this thread, and we will probably check them out.

Several of our friends have Priuses and like them. Before she bought the Jetta, my SO took a 2010 Prius for a test drive. The acceleration was anemic, and the throttle response was spongy and unpredictable. She found the rearward visibility was poor. Maybe the newer ones are better.

I am reluctant to recommend GM cars to her, because of my family's long history of serious problems with the brand. That's a long story, and not relevant to this thread.


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

julianv said:


> No, I understood it. But I wonder if you read and understood my response. In any case, I don't want to get argumentative about this. Each of us has to make a decision that is appropriate for our own needs and priorities.
> 
> I suspect that many of the people on this forum are motorheads who often buy or trade-in cars. My SO and I both appreciate a good ride, but we prefer to find something we like, keep it in good condition, and drive it for a long time (10 to 15 years). That's why she is reluctant to give up her Jetta. But we are open to other possibilities. I appreciate the suggestions that people have posted to this thread, and we will probably check them out.
> 
> ...


My wife is averaging roughly 40mpg with her new Civic turbo, and she has a pretty significant amount of rush hour highway crawl thrown in that mix with the A/C cranked. That's pretty good, and the car is a lot more fun to drive than a Prius...I'd opine that it is as much of a driver's car as any of the Jettas I've owned, especially the diesels, and certainly as much as, for example, a MK6 Jetta. Hard to say how reliable it will be over the long haul, but odds are it will be as least as good as the average VW.

I'd check one out if I were you. Given what you say about your value set, it seems like a good match. Economical, not too expensive to buy, likely long term durability. Punchier and more responsive to drive than a Prius. Soon available in a hatch as well as a sedan. Might be worth look, seems like a decent match to your priorities.

I've owned a fair number of diesel cars, but we don't have one these days. The shine has worn off them in large part for me as emissions regs have tightened (complexity) and gasoline powered cars have improved in efficiency. Electrics are improving by leaps and bounds, too.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

julianv said:


> Did you notice the words "performance" and "drivability" in my previous post? The Prius is a nice choice for people who want a transportation appliance. But it's not in the same league as our Jetta, if you want a driver's car.
> 
> BTW, in the 6 years we have had the Jetta, it's reliability has been great. No complaints.


A Jetta TDI is now a 'Drivers' Car'? 


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> A Jetta TDI is now a 'Drivers' Car'?


Note that ours is a 2010, not the more recent redesigned down-marketed version. A 2010 Jetta might not be the best choice for ripping up the Nurburgring. But the motor is torquey, pulls nicely from a standstill. Steering is reasonably taut. Handling is decent. Remember that my SO was comparing it to the 2010 versions of Prius, Sentra, etc. In that context, it certainly was (and is) a driver's car.


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

julianv said:


> Note that ours is a 2010, not the more recent redesigned down-marketed version. A 2010 Jetta might not be the best choice for ripping up the Nurburgring. But the motor is torquey, pulls nicely from a standstill. Steering is reasonably taut. Handling is decent. Remember that my SO was comparing it to the 2010 versions of Prius, Sentra, etc. In that context, it certainly was (and is) a driver's car.


In all seriousness, I think you would be in a good space to consider a used VW with the 1.8T. A 2015 with a few miles. If you like the Jettas, you could even grab a used 1.4T when the time comes. The extra money you'll pocket will offset your fuel for a while, and the car will be back on warranty for a bit. Think of it as a factory upgrade.

My 2013 Jetta should get me enough on buyback to do that, and pocket a big difference, more than just the fuel differential. That's huge. If I am willing to I could go back in time another year or two on the replacement and pocket more still.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

julianv said:


> Note that ours is a 2010, not the more recent redesigned down-marketed version. A 2010 Jetta might not be the best choice for ripping up the Nurburgring. But the motor is torquey, pulls nicely from a standstill. Steering is reasonably taut. Handling is decent. Remember that my SO was comparing it to the 2010 versions of Prius, Sentra, etc. In that context, it certainly was (and is) a driver's car.


I had a Mk6 Golf TDI.

It's not a driver's car. But I wish I still had it now for the hush money!


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

R Salesman said:


> Until your car gets totaled/stolen. You'll get way more opting for the buyback than you'll ever get from an insurance payout. Never knowing when an accident could occur, and knowing that you're gambling with several thousand dollars . . . those aren't the kind of odds I'm comfortable with. Others have different comfort thresholds, obviously.


He doesn't get it. Or he doesn't want to get it. 

His choice. eace:

Me, I've just started researching what I'll replace my JSW with. It must be a wagon or a 4-door hatchback.

It could be a GTI, or a GSW/Alltrack, or maybe some other brand. Honda Civic hatchback? Ford Focus ST? (My sister-in-law loves hers.) A CPO Volvo V60? (My brother loves his.) Mazda3? (I wish there were a Mazdaspeed 3!) The new Prius? (Boring but thrifty and very reliable.) Etc.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

biturbowagon said:


> He doesn't get it. Or he doesn't want to get it.
> 
> His choice. eace:
> 
> ...


This is very tempting


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

julianv said:


> The 17k will not buy us a car with equivalent drivability, performance, and fuel economy.


Your car has been on the road for 6-7 years. Cars of that age have suffered a lot of depreciation. I'm sorry, but a 6-7 year old Jetta TDI in great condition has never had a market value of 17k.

Maybe you value yours more than 17k, but this settlement is founded on market prices, not on your peculiar affinity for old diesels.



julianv said:


> As I've said in earlier posts, this is a totally bogus argument for those of us with older cars. In a buyback , we might get about 17k for our 2010 Jetta TDI, which is in great condition, paid off, and which we planned to keep for another 10 years. We don't want another car payment. The 17k will not buy us a car with equivalent drivability, performance, and fuel economy. If we accept the buyback we will end up buying something worse. The odds of the replacement car being totaled or stolen are no different than for the Jetta. If we file a claim for the replacement car, the insurance company will give us a further depreciated value, forcing us to buy something even worse than the car that was worse than the Jetta.
> 
> How is that a win?


Do you not understand that you can keep your car, as if none of this happened?

Some people just can't be made happy. They insist on complaining.

VW sold julianv an illegal car. No wonder it was terrific, it was illegal! Designed, built, marketed, and sold without regard for the limits our laws impose!

Shame VW didn't upholster it in rhinoceros leather and power it with the tears of babies!

It's fine to just complain and complain, to each his own, we all have things we enjoy doing.

But don't expect us not to recognize what you're doing.


----------



## Dubveiser (Aug 4, 2005)

biturbowagon said:


> He doesn't get it. Or he doesn't want to get it.
> 
> His choice. eace:
> 
> ...


I own an MK5 and I just picked up a new RAV4 hybrid. 

For 29k brand new, you get a well equipped car with a remote hatch, AWD, you'll get 34-35mpg per tank no matter how and where you drive it, and it'll pull away from an MK6 TDI from a stop, roll or on the highway...

It's ugly as sin and it's not thrilling to drive, but it does everything so damn well.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Mazda 3s said:


> This is very tempting


Especially since a GSW 1.8 is actually QUICKER than the GSW TDI per these two Car & Driver tests. The downside is the fuel economy of the gas model is about 20% worse than the TDI.

*
2015 Volkswagen Golf SportWagen 1.8T TSI Automatic* 
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 7.8 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 21.1 sec
Zero to 120 mph: 38.6 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 8.1 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 3.8 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 5.3 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 15.9 sec @ 89 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 126 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 166 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.82 g

FUEL ECONOMY:
EPA city/highway driving: 25/35 mpg


*
2015 Volkswagen Golf SportWagen TDI Manual* 
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 8.4 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 23.6 sec
Zero to 120 mph: 46.4 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 9.4 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 21.8 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 12.5 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 16.5 sec @ 85 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 127 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 185 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.85 g

FUEL ECONOMY:
EPA city/highway: 31/43 mpg


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

spockcat said:


> Especially since a GSW 1.8 is actually QUICKER than the GSW TDI per these two Car & Driver tests. The downside is the fuel economy of the gas model is about 20% worse than the TDI.
> 
> *
> 2015 Volkswagen Golf SportWagen 1.8T TSI Automatic*
> ...


I have no problem considering the 1.8T GSW as a replacement - problem is the wife can't drive stick and I'm not too keen on the 6-speed Tiptronic, much bigger fan of the DSG especially when chipped - if the GSW came with the DSG we'd already have it lined up as a replacement.

So I re-read the court document, looks like Gen 1 emissions proposal submission date is expected in November to the EPA, and final date is in late January 2017 - I guess we'll keep driving in the meantime, and see what happens - unless the GSW starts coming with DSG (or maybe they make an R-line version ) I have no clue what the wife would want to replace with - 

She came from a Rav4 which yes is a lot of utility and car for the price, but it literally puts you to sleep while driving it. I couldn't go back to those interior materials either.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Ricky Bobby said:


> I have no problem considering the 1.8T GSW as a replacement - problem is the wife can't drive stick and I'm not too keen on the 6-speed Tiptronic, much bigger fan of the DSG especially when chipped - *if the GSW came with the DSG we'd already have it lined up as a replacement.*


You can get the Golf Alltrack


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Mazda 3s said:


> You can get the Golf Alltrack


I was looking at it, isn't it AWD and a higher ride height/VW's version of the Allroad though? We really won't need the AWD (or loss of economy with it) moving to your area (Fuquay/Holly Springs) hopefully within the next year - but it definitely will be a vehicle in the cards for us!

I guess I could always through DG springs on it, and will see if you can get the body cladding paint matched - thats the only thing I don't like about the Alltrack/Allroad is the 2 tone plastic trim around the bottom of the body, looks horrendous IMO.

Would much rather a Golf R Wagon  Such a shame they won't bring it here


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

They won't have an 'R' version (at least not yet) but there will be an AWD Golf Sportwagon that isn't raised and doesn't have the body cladding. It'll be mechanically identical to the Alltrack other than the springs. I would imagine it'll be a bit cheaper, too. :beer:


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Air and water do mix said:


> They won't have an 'R' version (at least not yet) but there will be an AWD Golf Sportwagon that isn't raised and doesn't have the body cladding. It'll be mechanically identical to the Alltrack other than the springs. I would imagine it'll be a bit cheaper, too. :beer:


^That sounds great then! - If I can get Lighting Package and Nav, I'd be happy with the 1.8T in an AWD wagon (Stage 1 chip the wife will love the boost!) - I'll give it a few months to see the final settlement details and if they do propose anything that gets approved for the Gen 1 TDI's - Will be looking for the release of the 2017 Golf Sportwagens as well, I'd rather special order it (the non cladded, regular height AWD Sportwagen you mentioned) and when it arrives have them buyback the TDI in one fell swoop -


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Ricky Bobby said:


> ^That sounds great then! - If I can get Lighting Package and Nav, I'd be happy with the 1.8T in an AWD wagon (Stage 1 chip the wife will love the boost!) - I'll give it a few months to see the final settlement details and if they do propose anything that gets approved for the Gen 1 TDI's - Will be looking for the release of the 2017 Golf Sportwagens as well, I'd rather special order it (the non cladded, regular height AWD Sportwagen you mentioned) and when it arrives have them buyback the TDI in one fell swoop -


The GSW 4Motion is only available in base S trim, and can't be had with the Lighting Package or Nav. But you can get it with DSG or a manual

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xkdr1glgym8gm2r/VW MY17 OG.11-16.pdf?dl=0


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

This may have been covered already, but a head's up to lessees who think they can drive their car way past the mileage limit and not get penalized. 


Volkswagen will provide full cancellation of the remaining terms of your lease with no financial penalty upon return of the Eligible Vehicle lease issued by VW Credit, Inc. Volkswagen will pay for any early termination penalty, but *Volkswagen will not be responsible for fees for excess wear, use, and/or excess mileage at the point of vehicle surrender*, or other amounts due under your lease agreement such as delinquent lease payments and related late payment fees, or costs associated with tickets, tolls, etc.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Mazda 3s said:


> The GSW 4Motion is only available in base S trim, and can't be had with the Lighting Package or Nav. But you can get it with DSG or a manual
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/xkdr1glgym8gm2r/VW MY17 OG.11-16.pdf?dl=0


Ugh. Why do they do that kind of thing? That'd be fine for me, as I don't care about add-ons, but plenty of people do. 

Could those things be retrofitted? Will there be a special order possibility? I'd imagine not on the latter, but retrofitting is at least a possibility if the wiring is the same.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Mazda 3s said:


> The GSW 4Motion is only available in base S trim, and can't be had with the Lighting Package or Nav. But you can get it with DSG or a manual
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/xkdr1glgym8gm2r/VW MY17 OG.11-16.pdf?dl=0


Ugh - I forgot, S trim won't work for me - 2 dogs we need leatherette.

Thanks for that link - looks like the 2017's can only get the Lighting Package with SEL trim - sigh.

I guess if we do a buyback I'll just have to suck it up for the Tiptronic for her - she has no interest in driving manual.
Nothing else really checks the boxes for economy, space, and driveability/performance -


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

spockcat said:


> You can't find a replacement because the car you have is illegal for anyone to build using current technology at the time. VW shouldn't have even built it.
> 
> Eventually someone may build a car that can do everything the JSW does using new technology. But it will cost a lot more than you will get for your old car.


This.

Looking for a replacement for my illegally produced car and it turns out that no one was able to build an equivalent car but do it legally. Not following the law helped VW build the car you have and have a competitive advantage.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

dmorrow said:


> This.
> 
> Looking for a replacement for my illegally produced car and it turns out that no one was able to build an equivalent car but do it legally. Not following the law helped VW build the car you have and have a competitive advantage.


VW Dieselgate will be a case study taught in business schools like Harvard... whether all of those students will learn is a different story.


----------



## CarnivalofSax (Aug 28, 2001)

I'd like to see an updated order guide - the media release implies that a Sportwagen S and SE with lighting can be had if you get the DAP:

"The S (sold order only) and SE trims offer an available Driver Assistance Package that includes Bi-Xenon headlamps with LED DRLs; Blind Spot Monitor with Rear Traffic Alert; Forward Collision Warning and Autonomous Emergency Braking; and Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC)."

http://media.vw.com/release/1212/

-j


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW has yet to ask U.S. officials for diesel sales OK*



> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen dealers eager to hear about resuming sales of new diesels will have to keep doing what they've been doing for nearly 10 months now: wait.
> 
> After U.S. officials announced the $15 billion VW settlements in late June, a Environmental Protection Agency official told Automotive News, a sister publication of Automotive News Europe, that VW still hadn't applied for the agency approvals needed to sell new diesel-powered vehicles.
> 
> ...


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

CarnivalofSax said:


> I'd like to see an updated order guide - the media release implies that a Sportwagen S and SE with lighting can be had if you get the DAP:
> 
> "The S (sold order only) and SE trims offer an available Driver Assistance Package that includes Bi-Xenon headlamps with LED DRLs; Blind Spot Monitor with Rear Traffic Alert; Forward Collision Warning and Autonomous Emergency Braking; and Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC)."
> 
> ...


You know what? You are correct and good catch. Hopefully this is correct because I was disappointed with the SE order guide available options. All I care about is the darn lighting pkg. If this new 2017 DAP for the SE models holds true, it will make it easier to locate/order the exact color config I want. Pure White/Beige or Tornado Red/Beige. Hope it will also include auto dimming rearview mirror (crossing fingers). I've had to retrofit 3 Golf models already with Audi auto dimming mirrors and want a factory option for once. 

  

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

quailallstar said:


> You know what? You are correct and good catch. Hopefully this is correct because I was disappointed with the SE order guide available options. All I care about is the darn lighting pkg. If this new 2017 DAP for the SE models holds true, it will make it easier to locate/order the exact color config I want. Pure White/Beige or Tornado Red/Beige.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


^Me as well (the drop box link above) - it looked like Lighting Pkg only available on SEL trim? I would have considered a 4-motion GSW if I could get SE trim - but not considering if all I can get is cloth seats.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> Prius or Prius V. You can _easily_ find one just as nice as your 6-7 year old VW for $17k and the fuel economy will be significantly higher with far higher reliability too.


That's true if you plan to drive your car mostly in stop and go traffic with moderate highway driving. I live in a rural part of Spokane with 90% of my commute at continues 60mph. I spend maybe 5 minutes in actual stop and go traffic. So, the TDI is ideal for my commuting style. I tried a Prius for a week (borrowed a friend's car). Overall it got worse gas mileage, was terrible to drive, and generally did not meet my commuting requirements. And I totally disagree with reliability of hybrids. It's a far more complicated machine. A diesel vehicle, by it's very nature, is a more reliable drive train which is why it's used in lots of long duration applications such as ships, locomotives, semi trucks, etc. Hybrid systems don't come close to the PROVEN reliability of diesel engines. Period.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

So I'm guessing the calculator won't arrive officially by VW until later in the month then?


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

So now that the cat is out of the bag, are people who are going to return their car going to do high dollar maintenance? I am about 1500 miles before I am due for a DSG service, but have about 7k miles before I will turn the car back in. I do not intend to return my car until probably May-ish of next year.

I guess my question is, how critical is the DSG service? 

At this point, the car is a disposable item.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

julianv said:


> Anyone involved in the Dieselgate mess should read this document carefully. It answers many of the questions that have been floating around:
> 
> https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/PSC_Settlement_Agreement/Settlement%20Agreement/Exhibit%203%20-%20Long%20Form%20Notice.pdf
> 
> ...


So, per the document you linked it says persons are eligible to be included in the class action lawsuit if you are the owner or lease on or prior to September 18th 2015. I bought my TDI Golf in November 2015. Does this mean I'm excluded from the entire buyback/payment offer?


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

Mazda 3s said:


> The GSW 4Motion is only available in base S trim, and can't be had with the Lighting Package or Nav. But you can get it with DSG or a manual
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/xkdr1glgym8gm2r/VW MY17 OG.11-16.pdf?dl=0



Thanks for that link looks like a Alltrack SE for us. Too bad you can't get Xenon. I don't want all the adaptive stuff, more stuff to break, we were planning on keeping this TDI wagon a long time. 

Curious to see what Marrakesh Brown interior looks like. 

Looks like Paddles with the DSG, I miss that when I drive ours. Hopefully Kessy is better than whatever keyless is in our 2014. You have to mash the brake pedal in order for it to start. 

All that being said, kind of excited. Hope this all shakes out properly.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Uberhare said:


> That's true if you plan to drive your car mostly in stop and go traffic with moderate highway driving. I live in a rural part of Spokane with 90% of my commute at continues 60mph. I spend maybe 5 minutes in actual stop and go traffic. So, the TDI is ideal for my commuting style. I tried a Prius for a week (borrowed a friend's car). Overall it got worse gas mileage, was terrible to drive, and generally did not meet my commuting requirements. And I totally disagree with reliability of hybrids. It's a far more complicated machine. A diesel vehicle, by it's very nature, is a more reliable drive train which is why it's used in lots of long duration applications such as ships, locomotives, semi trucks, etc. Hybrid systems don't come close to the PROVEN reliability of diesel engines. Period.


Did you just honestly say that a modern Prius is less reliable and durable than a modern TDI... even if we discount Dieselgate?


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

Uberhare said:


> That's true if you plan to drive your car mostly in stop and go traffic with moderate highway driving. I live in a rural part of Spokane with 90% of my commute at continues 60mph. I spend maybe 5 minutes in actual stop and go traffic. So, the TDI is ideal for my commuting style. I tried a Prius for a week (borrowed a friend's car). Overall it got worse gas mileage, was terrible to drive, and generally did not meet my commuting requirements. And I totally disagree with reliability of hybrids. It's a far more complicated machine. A diesel vehicle, by it's very nature, is a more reliable drive train which is why it's used in lots of long duration applications such as ships, locomotives, semi trucks, etc. Hybrid systems don't come close to the PROVEN reliability of diesel engines. Period.


How did this post from 2002 end up in this thread?


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Mazda 3s said:


> This is very tempting
> 
> https://s31.postimg.org/4sqrldn17/gsw.jpg


the prices on these... nearly $7k off... DEFINITELY make me want to take a long road trip to pickup one as a replacement for the wifes jsw tdi.
BUT. not gonna happen until we have the buyback in hand... etc.

have too many cars at the house as it is already, need to clear the driveway some before we do anything.

also. based on the numbers from this dealer, i am hopeful that someone more local will put up a similarly low price on year end stock.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

DUBPL8 said:


> So I'm guessing the calculator won't arrive officially by VW until later in the month then?


The figures, like everything else about this, is preliminary until July 29th, which is the current deadline for public comment. At that point it will be finalized and VW had a set amount of time from that point to make the calculator finalized. VW cannot make an official calculator until then since nothing is official.


----------



## syncro87 (Apr 24, 2000)

Uberhare said:


> And I totally disagree with reliability of hybrids. It's a far more complicated machine. A diesel vehicle, by it's very nature, is a more reliable drive train which is why it's used in lots of long duration applications such as ships, locomotives, semi trucks, etc. Hybrid systems don't come close to the PROVEN reliability of diesel engines. Period.


Interesting. By just about every account I've seen/heard/read/etc, the Prius in particular is exceptionally reliable over the long haul. Perhaps one of the most reliable vehicles available of any type, or in any price range. I'm pretty confident that the Prius has a proven record of impressive reliability/durability. At least as impressive as any VW diesel currently on the market.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Where can I get some cheap steelies with bald tires to return the car with?


----------



## Dubveiser (Aug 4, 2005)

syncro87 said:


> Interesting. By just about every account I've seen/heard/read/etc, the Prius in particular is exceptionally reliable over the long haul. Perhaps one of the most reliable vehicles available of any type, or in any price range. I'm pretty confident that the Prius has a proven record of impressive reliability/durability. At least as impressive as any VW diesel currently on the market.


Pretty much this. 

Toyota and Ford hybrid tech is suprinsingly simple.

The electric motors seem to last forever, so do the battery packs

The gas engine is only used for a fraction of operating time, and it's a low strung, naturally aspirated atkinson cycle engine

The transmission isn't a CVT like most people assume, it's a planetary gear set, like you'll find in agriculture machinery. It's ridiculously simple and reliable.

The drivetrain is low strung and low heat. Pretty much the exact opposite of a diesel engine...


----------



## rick8018 (Jan 3, 2001)

aj4066 said:


> So now that the cat is out of the bag, are people who are going to return their car going to do high dollar maintenance? I am about 1500 miles before I am due for a DSG service, but have about 7k miles before I will turn the car back in. I do not intend to return my car until probably May-ish of next year.
> 
> I guess my question is, how critical is the DSG service?
> 
> At this point, the car is a disposable item.


There are a lot of VW owners with DSG's who don't do the service or "forget" or whatever. I doubt that the engineers have a timer going that will detonate your transmission if you go 5 miles over the factory recommended limit. While I would not want to put 30k or 40k miles on it without changing the fluid, 7k will likely never be noticed by the car.

We are in a similar position. My wife's 2009 Jetta TDI is at 119,996 miles as of this morning. I'm certainly not going to put $1500 into it only to sell it back in 4-6 months. I'm not worried at all about the transmission blowing up because we have 121,xxx miles on it. If we were keeping the car I would do the maintenance without question, as I have in the past at 40k and 80k. But now, nah.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

zhenya00 said:


> How did this post from 2002 end up in this thread?


What so confusing? People make the assumption that a hybrid vehicle is a one-size-fits-all type of vehicle. It isn't. It's fine for people who drive a mix of city and highway, but if you live in the boonies and commute mostly highway the diesel platform is going to be more efficient and will last much, much longer than any hybrid platform. I'm not saying hybrids suck, but rather it all depends on the commute and driver's needs. I'm simply found the hybrids do not deliver the performance nor the efficiency I require for my commute. That's all.


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

Uberhare said:


> What so confusing? People make the assumption that a hybrid vehicle is a one-size-fits-all type of vehicle. It isn't. It's fine for people who drive a mix of city and highway, but if you live in the boonies and commute mostly highway the diesel platform is going to be more efficient and will last much, much longer than any hybrid platform. I'm not saying hybrids suck, but rather it all depends on the commute and driver's needs. I'm simply found the hybrids do not deliver the performance nor the efficiency I require for my commute. That's all.


This is an outdated point of view. The Prius has proven itself to be the most reliable car on the road, period. And it gets better mileage, even on the highway, than any TDI, without cheating. The _combined_ average fuel economy of the Gen 4 Prius at Fuelly is above 55mpg. Many owners are reporting greater than 60mpg, up to 70mpg, real-world highway mileage.

http://priuschat.com/threads/real-world-mpg-numbers.161337/page-18#post-2378007


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

Uberhare said:


> And I totally disagree with reliability of hybrids. It's a far more complicated machine. A diesel vehicle, by it's very nature, is a more reliable drive train which is why it's used in lots of long duration applications such as ships, locomotives, semi trucks, etc. Hybrid systems don't come close to the PROVEN reliability of diesel engines. Period.


It's not really a matter of disagreement, or opinion. It's not up for debate. Your opinion is not made more correct by declaring "period." Hybrids *are *reliable. 

That's backed by 20 years of real-world data and observations of millions of hybrid vehicles. The Prius is one of the most reliable vehicles on the road, period, regardless of drivetrain, and Prius taxis go 300,000 miles without battery replacement or significant loss of efficiency. Diesels are reliable too, but if you think a modern light car diesel is going to be as reliable as what's installed in a locomotive or ship, or more reliable than a hybrid drivetrain, I suggest you think through the failure points in a diesel drivetrain. There are lots of them, especially emissions equipment. 



Uberhare said:


> What so confusing? People make the assumption that a hybrid vehicle is a one-size-fits-all type of vehicle. It isn't. It's fine for people who drive a mix of city and highway, but if you live in the boonies and commute mostly highway the diesel platform is going to be more efficient and will last much, much longer than any hybrid platform. I'm not saying hybrids suck, but rather it all depends on the commute and driver's needs. I'm simply found the hybrids do not deliver the performance nor the efficiency I require for my commute. That's all.


A hybrid might not suit your personal desires, particularly for driving experience. That said, they are just as reliable or durable as a TDI, they're not going to be any less efficient, and they are cleaner and better able to meet future emissions limits. So best get used to them, I guess. Can't see OEMs bothering with diesels much past the 7-10 year timeframe, the way things are going. 



zhenya00 said:


> This is an outdated point of view. The Prius has proven itself to be the most reliable car on the road, period. And it gets better mileage, even on the highway, than any TDI, without cheating. The _combined_ average fuel economy of the Gen 4 Prius at Fuelly is above 55mpg. Many owners are reporting greater than 60mpg, up to 70mpg, real-world highway mileage.
> 
> http://priuschat.com/threads/real-world-mpg-numbers.161337/page-18#post-2378007


All of this. The Prius' drivetrain actually has fewer moving parts than a TDI; the transmission is just a planetary gearset, and there's no DI (with pumps and injectors and so on) or turbo or EGR or particulate filter. And it gets over 50mpg highway, in testing but also in the real world. They shine in stop and go, but they still have Atkinson cycle engines, great aero, LRR tires, regenerative braking, and can use the battery to even out demand on hills and when accelerating. It's not like there's no benefits for highway driving, and it's not like a hybrid can't deal with a highway commute.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

rick8018 said:


> There are a lot of VW owners with DSG's who don't do the service or "forget" or whatever. I doubt that the engineers have a timer going that will detonate your transmission if you go 5 miles over the factory recommended limit. While I would not want to put 30k or 40k miles on it without changing the fluid, 7k will likely never be noticed by the car.
> 
> We are in a similar position. My wife's 2009 Jetta TDI is at 119,996 miles as of this morning. I'm certainly not going to put $1500 into it only to sell it back in 4-6 months. I'm not worried at all about the transmission blowing up because we have 121,xxx miles on it. If we were keeping the car I would do the maintenance without question, as I have in the past at 40k and 80k. But now, nah.


Im glad Im not the only one who thinks like this. 

:thumbup:


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

Rabbit5GTI said:


> A Jetta TDI is now a 'Drivers' Car'?
> 
> 
> :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


Seeing how it has the same chassis and suspension set up as a gti/audi a3/ mk2 audi tt, at least the 2010, and with a dsg, and better weight distribution than the gti, yeah it kinda is. What didn't you like about the way it drives that makes that statement so funny?


----------



## Duvel (Mar 11, 2015)

dunhamjr said:


> the prices on these... nearly $7k off... DEFINITELY make me want to take a long road trip to pickup one as a replacement for the wifes jsw tdi.
> BUT. not gonna happen until we have the buyback in hand... etc.
> 
> have too many cars at the house as it is already, need to clear the driveway some before we do anything.
> ...


I'd be guessing there will be many more dealers heavily discounting '16's, especially GSW's with '17's & AWD closing in to the showrooms


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

htr said:


> Seeing how it has the same chassis and suspension set up as a gti/audi a3/ mk2 audi tt, at least the 2010, and with a dsg, and better weight distribution than the gti, yeah it kinda is. What didn't you like about the way it drives that makes that statement so funny?


I can see calling the Golf orGSW a driver's car - not certain I'd actually agree, but the assertion could be argued - but the Jetta is not a GTI or A3 or MK2 TT. It's a _substantially _modified version of the PQ35 platform with a stretched wheelbase, and most critically it has a beam axle rather than the multlink setup. It was softened up a lot. And having rented a few Jettas....yeah, no, not a driver's car.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

Turbio! said:


> I can see calling the Golf orGSW a driver's car - not certain I'd actually agree, but the assertion could be argued - but the Jetta is not a GTI or A3 or MK2 TT. It's a _substantially _modified version of the PQ35 platform with a stretched wheelbase, and *most critically it has a beam axle rather than the multlink setup.* It was softened up a lot. And having rented a few Jettas....yeah, no, not a driver's car.


The Jettas changed back to multi-link for the 2014 MY.


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

Turbio! said:


> I can see calling the Golf orGSW a driver's car - not certain I'd actually agree, but the assertion could be argued - but the Jetta is not a GTI or A3 or MK2 TT. It's a _substantially _modified version of the PQ35 platform with a stretched wheelbase, and most critically it has a beam axle rather than the multlink setup. It was softened up a lot. And having rented a few Jettas....yeah, no, not a driver's car.


2010's do not have an axle beam.and the wheel base isn't stretched. I've measured. Multilink.same control arms top and bottom and front and rear as a gti.


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

aj4066 said:


> So now that the cat is out of the bag, are people who are going to return their car going to do high dollar maintenance? I am about 1500 miles before I am due for a DSG service, but have about 7k miles before I will turn the car back in. I do not intend to return my car until probably May-ish of next year.
> 
> I guess my question is, how critical is the DSG service?
> 
> At this point, the car is a disposable item.


Even if you do a buyback, you have quite some time to do it (1-2 years from now, right?). Since I still had my Dieselgate "don't hate us" $1K money, I did my 60K service and new Conti tires all around mostly on VW's dime. If you're not going to be one of the first in line for a buyback but might to it later, you probably should do it anyway. Doesn't make sense to drive a car with deferred maintenance if it's for more than just a few months.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Turbio! said:


> I can see calling the Golf orGSW a driver's car - not certain I'd actually agree, but the assertion could be argued - but the Jetta is not a GTI or A3 or MK2 TT. It's a _substantially _modified version of the PQ35 platform with a stretched wheelbase, and most critically it has a beam axle rather than the multlink setup. It was softened up a lot. And having rented a few Jettas....yeah, no, not a driver's car.


The Jetta being questioned was identical wheel base as far as I recall and IRS, JSW from same year same as well. 

The TT has other changes, I would say the Jetta is closer to GTI than GTI is to TT.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

htr said:


> 2010's do not have an axle beam.and the wheel base isn't stretched. I've measured. Multilink.same control arms top and bottom and front and rear as a gti.


We talking Jetta sedan or wagon? Because the Jetta is unquestionably on a different wheelbase than any other PQ35 VW, and it damn sure had a beam axle, until 2014 apparently. 



Hajduk said:


> The Jettas changed back to multi-link for the 2014 MY.


I stand corrected on that. Still not the same wheelbase as an A3/TT. 



chris86vw said:


> The Jetta being questioned was identical wheel base as far as I recall and IRS, JSW from same year same as well.
> 
> The TT has other changes, I would say the Jetta is closer to GTI than GTI is to TT.


What year Jetta are we actually talking about?


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

chris86vw said:


> The Jetta being questioned was identical wheel base as far as I recall and IRS, JSW from same year same as well.
> 
> The TT has other changes, I would say the Jetta is closer to GTI than GTI is to TT.


I agree with everything here. I'm not saying it's an ultimate drivers car. Its somewhat subjective anyway. Just saying the guy called his a "drivers car" and that it's not a crazy statement. And you can basically bolt up any suspension part from any of the cars mentioned. So it can't be miles away from the gti.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

Turbio! said:


> What year Jetta are we actually talking about?


2014s Jettas and up added IRS back as standard except the base 2.slow model.


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

Turbio! said:


> We talking Jetta sedan or wagon? Because the Jetta is unquestionably on a different wheelbase than any other PQ35 VW, and it damn sure had a beam axle, until 2014 apparently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The guy that called his 2010 jsw a drivers car, compared to other options. Another guy laughed at that statement. I'm simply saying it's not a totally crazy thing to say. And the 2010 jsw has the same wheel base, chasis , suspension set up(irs) as the gti. Smaller sway bars, softer springs and shocks. Everything else is the same.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Turbio! said:


> What year Jetta are we actually talking about?


You quoted someone who specifically said 2010. The golf, jetta and sportwagen all should have had 101.5" wheel bases that year. The a3 may have been identical also (google seems to say yes).

The 2011+ jettas are a slightly longer wheel base but just about 1/2" longer than the MQB cars in question besides the TT which is shorter than any of them by a good deal, hence my jetta closer to gti than to a TT comment. 


And I don't mind the beam on my GSW at all, the torsion beam really shouldn't be confused with that utter crap trailing thing on the early stripper mk6 jettas, not sure the TDI jettas ever got that did they?


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

htr said:


> The guy that called his 2010 jsw a drivers car, compared to other options. Another guy laughed at that statement. I'm simply saying it's not a totally crazy thing to say. And the 2010 jsw has the same wheel base, chasis , suspension set up(irs) as the gti. Smaller sway bars, softer springs and shocks. Everything else is the same.


Fair enough, I was thinking of the current gen that came out in CY 2010. I'm still not sure that statement wasn't highly questionable, but for the previous gen that wasn't a crazy thing to say.


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

The 2010 jsw is a mkv suspension and chassis wise. Mkv with a mkiv front bumper and grill. And yes the mkv Jetta gli and gti are the same car exactly. Besides one has a hatch, and one a trunk. The Mkvi are pretty much the same as the mkv as well. Suspensions ,chassis, engines etc... Besides the body And the earlier turbo engines being fsi And latter tsi. And I think they changed some chassis components in the latter Mkvi jettas. But everything can be cross fitted through out mkv and Mkvi cars. And many a3 and tt parts through that era as well.


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

htr said:


> The guy that called his 2010 jsw a drivers car, compared to other options. Another guy laughed at that statement. I'm simply saying it's not a totally crazy thing to say. And the 2010 jsw has the same wheel base, chasis , suspension set up(irs) as the gti. Smaller sway bars, softer springs and shocks. Everything else is the same.


I'm the one who made the original statement. My SO has a 2010 Jetta TDI sedan (not a JSW). She is the primary user of the car - I drive a GTI. She bought the car new, after test drives in Sentras, Priuses, and other marshmallows. She is not a car enthusiast like most people on this forum, but she could tell that the Jetta was more nimble and responsive than some of the alternatives, more fun to drive. In that context, she (and I) felt that the Jetta was more of a "driver's car", and that's all I meant by that statement. I was not trying to equate it to a TT or a Veyron.

We both like the car a lot, and we would prefer to keep it rather than turn it in for a buyback.


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

Air and water do mix said:


> Ugh. Why do they do that kind of thing? That'd be fine for me, as I don't care about add-ons, but plenty of people do.


Because H&K and VW hate you


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

Uberhare said:


> What so confusing? People make the assumption that a hybrid vehicle is a one-size-fits-all type of vehicle. It isn't. It's fine for people who drive a mix of city and highway, but if you live in the boonies and commute mostly highway the diesel platform is going to be more efficient and will last much, much longer than any hybrid platform. I'm not saying hybrids suck, but rather it all depends on the commute and driver's needs. I'm simply found the hybrids do not deliver the performance nor the efficiency I require for my commute. That's all.


Not only are hybrids such as the Prius incredibly reliable and efficient, but there are documented issues with our VW diesels. Just search the forum for many such reports.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

chris86vw said:


> VW cannot make an official calculator until then since nothing is official.


I've enjoyed your posts in this thread, they've been very good. Truly.

That being said, I don't understand why you think VW couldn't post a value calculator at vwcourtsettlement.com right now. All it would do is produce estimated buyback and modification prices based on the tables alreading appearing in the proposed settlement agreement. Particularly since the proposed settlement agreement is already on the site.

Sure, they'd have to put in caveats and disclaimers explaining that the results of the calculator are not final, that the settlement is pending both public comment and court approval. But that's not tough to post.

Is there some clause in the settlement agreement that prevents VW from posting information from the proposed settlement via an online calculator tool?

In the meantime, this calculator's pretty good I think.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

julianv said:


> We both like the car a lot, and we would prefer to keep it rather than turn it in for a buyback.


Great!

Then this settlement has a terrific option for you. It's called Option 2, which gives you a cash award of $5,100 for that particular car plus a free modification to your engine so that it pollutes an acceptable amount under the Clean Air Act.

Or, if it turns out no such modification is possible, VW will buy the car from you for more money than it was worth when the scandal hit.

These are two options that weren't available to you before the settlement. Be happy.

Or, if you still won't accept either offer, you can try to keep driving the car as-is and hope the regulators in your state aren't particularly concerned with complying with the Clean Air Act and the terms of the grants they take from Washington DC to enforce it.

Good luck.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

Chilcoot said:


> I've enjoyed your posts in this thread, they've been very good. Truly.
> 
> That being said, I don't understand why you think VW couldn't post a value calculator at vwcourtsettlement.com right now. All it would do is produce estimated buyback and modification prices based on the tables alreading appearing in the proposed settlement agreement. Particularly since the proposed settlement agreement is already on the site.
> 
> ...



I'd guess, because not all TDI drivers are nearly as involved and up-to-date on the goings-on as this folks who frequent the forum. Coupled with the fact that the average person is really good at consciously or unconsciously ignoring caveats and disclaimers, VW dealers would probably get a slew of people showing up with printouts from the website with their hands out for money.

Also, the court documents indicate that the calculator needs to be up "no later than" X date (july 31st I think?). VW has done nothing so far to indicate they plan on moving on any of this stuff sooner than they are absolutely required to.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Chilcoot said:


> That being said, I don't understand why you think VW couldn't post a value calculator at vwcourtsettlement.com right now. All it would do is produce estimated buyback and modification prices based on the tables alreading appearing in the proposed settlement agreement. Particularly since the proposed settlement agreement is already on the site.


People think that Tesla Autopilot means they can go to sleep or watch a movie, and that is somehow Teslas fault for using a word that doesn't mean what people think it means.

My point is people are stupid and if I was VW I would not feed the stupid and allow any more backlash to be brought against me if something related to it changed but someone added things up on July 20th and now demands that is what they get 6 months from now. 

Most people haven't read the settlement agreement, or even been to that website. Most people don't know that this is pending and can possibly change between now and July 29th. An official calculator only helps those that are already uninformed get possibly incorrect information. 

I understand it seems easy and a disclaimer should be all that is needed, but reality is that it isn't that easy and people are looking for any reason to be pissed at VW.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

veedubBiker said:


> I'd guess, because not all TDI drivers are nearly as involved and up-to-date on the goings-on as this folks who frequent the forum. Coupled with the fact that the average person is really good at consciously or unconsciously ignoring caveats and disclaimers, VW dealers would probably get a slew of people showing up with printouts from the website with their hands out for money.
> 
> Also, the court documents indicate that the calculator needs to be up "no later than" X date (july 31st I think?). VW has done nothing so far to indicate they plan on moving on any of this stuff sooner than they are absolutely required to.





chris86vw said:


> My point is people are stupid and if I was VW I would not feed the stupid and allow any more backlash to be brought against me if something related to it changed but someone added things up on July 20th and now demands that is what they get 6 months from now.


Okay, cool, so you two both agree with me that VW could post a calculator, you just think they've just chosen not to as a tactic. Fair enough.

I'll disregard this then, which is what I was surprised by:



chris86vw said:


> VW *cannot* make an official calculator until then since nothing is official.


 (boldface added)


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

htr said:


> Seeing how it has the same chassis and suspension set up as a gti/audi a3/ mk2 audi tt, at least the 2010, and with a dsg, and better weight distribution than the gti, yeah it kinda is. What didn't you like about the way it drives that makes that statement so funny?


What are you smoking?

No way is a TDI similar in any way to a GTI. Suspension, brakes, and engine are very different. The GTI is a much more balanced car than a golf TDI. A GTI was intended to be the more performance oriented car over the golf, and the R over the GTI. 

I will say TDIs at least in manual form are fun to drive because of the torque, but it's not an exciting performance car by any means. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

2ohgti said:


> What are you smoking?
> 
> No way is a TDI similar in any way to a GTI. Suspension, brakes, and engine are very different. The GTI is a much more balanced car than a golf TDI. A GTI was intended to be the more performance oriented car over the golf, and the R over the GTI.
> 
> I will say TDIs at least in manual form are fun to drive because of the torque, but it's not an exciting performance car by any means.



Just going to point out that the GTI and JSW in your signature actually have the same brakes.

They have 100% identical suspension designs with slightly different springs and shocks. The JSW might actually have better F/R weight distribution than the GTI.


Since you mentioned TDI compared to GTI you are then also ignoring the GTD which is a GTI with a TDI and everything else identical so that statement is false. 



But we already went over all this.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

2ohgti said:


> What are you smoking?
> 
> No way is a TDI similar in any way to a GTI. Suspension, brakes, and engine are very different. The GTI is a much more balanced car than a golf TDI. A GTI was intended to be the more performance oriented car over the golf, and the R over the GTI.
> 
> I will say TDIs at least in manual form are fun to drive because of the torque, but it's not an exciting performance car by any means.



Things I learned today.... Identical structures, suspension pickup points/geometry actually means "not similar in any way" or "very different".


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> Just going to point out that the GTI and JSW in your signature actually have the same brakes.
> 
> They have 100% identical suspension designs with slightly different springs and shocks. The JSW might actually have better F/R weight distribution than the GTI.
> 
> ...


No, there is a big difference.

1. JSW weighs more. 
2. GTI springs are stiffer and lower center of gravity. Makes a BIG difference.
3. Less weight=better handling and braking. 

Like I said I drive both and the JSW is nowhere near as good as a GTI in handling, braking and especially accelerating 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

2ohgti said:


> No, there is a big difference.
> 
> 1. JSW weighs more.
> 2. GTI springs are stiffer and lower center of gravity. Makes a BIG difference.
> ...


I'm not disputing some of the points that you just made, however they are not as big as you are making them to be and it does not change that I provide facts which you were wrong about like the brakes, that you cannot say "no" to.

I also own/drive (currently as in can go it in any of them right now) a JSW, GSW, TT, and an A3 as well as regularly drive and have thousands of miles on a mk7 GTI and had a lot of time with a mk6 GTI as well. 

The difference between a GTI and a JSW is not as big as you are making it out to be, they are based on identical suspensions and can be setup to perform nearly identical in the hands of anyone discussing this. I've actually provided some information on what might make the gap on a GSW to a MK7 GTI larger, but your two? nope.


The POS 225k mile 2000 TT I have however changed my thoughts on even attempting to make even GTI into a sports car, there is something magical the TTs have which none of the others have. For me that only makes the gti vs wagon gap smaller.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Also for your 2010s specifically depending on specs you can make a JSW and GTI within about 75lbs of each other meaning a full tank in a GTI and a 1/4 tank in the JSW they would be the same.. So what was that again about braking being a big difference on two cars with identical brakes that can weigh the same? or the balance issue on a car with better front/rear distribution?


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> I'm not disputing some of the points that you just made, however they are not as big as you are making them to be and it does not change that I provide facts which you were wrong about like the brakes, that you cannot say "no" to.
> 
> I also own/drive (currently as in can go it in any of them right now) a JSW, GSW, TT, and an A3 as well as regularly drive and have thousands of miles on a mk7 GTI and had a lot of time with a mk6 GTI as well.
> 
> ...


Sure it's not a dramatic difference in the two, but I notice it every time I drive them. 
But there is one thing I like about the JSW TDI-the clutch pedal feel and the shifter. The GTI just seems too light. It's probably my biggest complaint about the car. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

chris86vw said:


> Just going to point out that the GTI and JSW in your signature actually have the same brakes.
> 
> They have 100% identical suspension designs with slightly different springs and shocks. The JSW might actually have better F/R weight distribution than the GTI.
> 
> ...


The brakes thing really surprises me...... I have been under the impression for a long long time that GTIs had different brakes, bigger...Do you know if that has always been the case? Even back to the mk4s ?


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Chilcoot said:


> That being said, I don't understand why you think VW couldn't post a value calculator at vwcourtsettlement.com right now. All it would do is produce estimated buyback and modification prices based on the tables alreading appearing in the proposed settlement agreement. Particularly since the proposed settlement agreement is already on the site.
> 
> Sure, they'd have to put in caveats and disclaimers explaining that the results of the calculator are not final, that the settlement is pending both public comment and court approval. But that's not tough to post.
> 
> ...


VW has no interest in telling people exactly what they might get when they don't know if it is right or wrong. All it does is add to their aggravation and to a lot of the VW owners aggravation when they don't understand that the calculator really doesn't mean anything at this point.

Putting some type of disclaimer at the bottom also doesn't work, people would use the calculator, figure out how they plan to spend the money and then call VW or their local dealer to collect and once people think they have proof of what they are owed their calls would not end.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

phospher5 said:


> The brakes thing really surprises me...... I have been under the impression for a long long time that GTIs had different brakes, bigger...Do you know if that has always been the case? Even back to the mk4s ?


The mk4s had a few different brake setups and I'm blanking on exactly what was what. The 2.0 8vs had one set of brakes, i'm 99% sure the TDIs had the same brakes as the 1.8t jetta/golf GTI which was slightly larger. You can tell by the caliper type as the 2.0s has the carrier slider built into the bearing housing and the others had the removable carriers. Its been a long long time since I looked at brakes on a mk4 tdi though.

The mk5 jetta tdis and 2.5s I think shared brakes but were not the same as the 2.0t, whether gli or gti or standard jetta 2.0t they all had the same ones. For JSWs the TDIs had the same size brakes as the Gti/glis, the 2.5 JSWs I believe had the normal jetta 2.5 brakes. The mk6 golf TDIs I don't recall ever specifically touching so can't say.

For the Mk7 though the GSW and the standard golf now share brakes while the GTI and A3 have the same as each other but slightly larger compared to the golfs. I currently have some A3 take off caliper carriers and rotors on my GSW TDI. Brakes were the one thing I actually noticed being worse on my GSW coming from the JSW until I swapped them.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

phospher5 said:


> The brakes thing really surprises me...... I have been under the impression for a long long time that GTIs had different brakes, bigger...Do you know if that has always been the case? Even back to the mk4s ?


on mk4's the brakes WERE different

2.0/tdi were the same, at 11
1.8t/vr6 same, at 11.3 but also thicker than 2.0/tdi
20th/337 at 12.3
r32 at 13.2

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?846180-The-brakes-of-the-MK4-platform-OEM-and-Upgrades


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> on mk4's the brakes WERE different
> 
> 2.0/tdi were the same, at 11
> 1.8t/vr6 same, at 11.3 but also thicker than 2.0/tdi
> ...


Ah so the 2.0 and TDI were same, really was drawing a blank there :thumbup:


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

chris86vw said:


> The mk4s had a few different brake setups and I'm blanking on exactly what was what. The 2.0 8vs had one set of brakes, i'm 99% sure the TDIs had the same brakes as the 1.8t jetta/golf GTI which was slightly larger. You can tell by the caliper type as the 2.0s has the carrier slider built into the bearing housing and the others had the removable carriers. Its been a long long time since I looked at brakes on a mk4 tdi though.
> 
> The mk5 jetta tdis and 2.5s I think shared brakes but were not the same as the 2.0t, whether gli or gti or standard jetta 2.0t they all had the same ones. For JSWs the TDIs had the same size brakes as the Gti/glis, the 2.5 JSWs I believe had the normal jetta 2.5 brakes. The mk6 golf TDIs I don't recall ever specifically touching so can't say.
> 
> For the Mk7 though the GSW and the standard golf now share brakes while the GTI and A3 have the same as each other but slightly larger compared to the golfs. I currently have some A3 take off caliper carriers and rotors on my GSW TDI. Brakes were the one thing I actually noticed being worse on my GSW coming from the JSW until I swapped them.


Interesting. Not a bad thing either, the Wagons being slightly heavier and more likely to have cargo etc. in them means having bigger brakes is a good thing.


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

2ohgti said:


> What are you smoking?
> 
> No way is a TDI similar in any way to a GTI. Suspension, brakes, and engine are very different. The GTI is a much more balanced car than a golf TDI. A GTI was intended to be the more performance oriented car over the golf, and the R over the GTI.
> 
> ...


What am I smoking?? What are you smoking? No one ever said the jsw is on the same level as the gti as far as performance . All I did was point out all the similarities. No one eve said the gti and the tdi had the same engines. But even they are similar. Both have flat torque curves. Both are 4cyl, Hell they're even set up basically the same in appearance. And once again same chassis, suspension set up, wheel base etc... Yes the gti is lighter, no one said other wise. But not by much at all. But the Jetta is the more well balanced car.And As I said before. The gti has stiffer springs and shocks, but also not by much.And about 2mm bigger sway bars. Sorry but they are way more similar than not. So I guess you must be smoking the good stuff that makes all these cars so "drastically different". That share so many drastically identical details. Jeez, you'd think an unknowing audi owner just found out they really had a vw!!


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

And yes we all understand a lighter car with more hp will be faster than a heavier car with less hp. And that the 2.0t fsi/tsi is faster than a tdi. And yes a car with stiffer springs and shocks will corner flatter than it will with softer springs and shocks. And yes everyone here knows the gti is made to be sportier than a jsw/ or golf. And that the R is made to be a step above the gti. And yes you should feel a difference when driving your gti compared to your Jsw or golf tdi. But have you ever looked underneath them? All this stated cuz a guy said the jsw was more of a drivers car than a ?? Sentra? Maybe I think. And some one laughed at that statement. And i simply said maybe that's not such a crazy thing to say cuz the jsw and gti share the same chassis ,suspension, etc... No one here ever was trying to compare the two as equals as far as performance. But similar, well yes . In many ways more than not.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

htr said:


> What am I smoking?? What are you smoking? No one ever said the jsw is on the same level as the gti as far as performance . All I did was point out all the similarities. No one eve said the gti and the tdi had the same engines. But even they are similar. Both have flat torque curves. Both are 4cyl, Hell they're even set up basically the same in appearance. And once again same chassis, suspension set up, wheel base etc... Yes the gti is lighter, no one said other wise. But not by much at all. But the Jetta is the more well balanced car.And As I said before. The gti has stiffer springs and shocks, but also not by much.And about 2mm bigger sway bars. Sorry but they are way more similar than not. So I guess you must be smoking the good stuff that makes all these cars so "drastically different". That share so many drastically identical details. Jeez, you'd think an unknowing audi owner just found out they really had a vw!!


I have both. They are different. The JSW handling is not as good and IMO is not as balanced. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## htr (Dec 22, 2014)

2ohgti said:


> I have both. They are different. The JSW handling is not as good and IMO is not as balanced.
> 
> Yeah, no $!#+, no one said the jsw handles as good as gti here. That would be a idiotic statement. But with the similarities they have the driving dynamics are not and can not be world's apart. That's not an opinion, that's the facts. I love the gti. One of my favorite cars of all time. I've had gtis , and a jsw. I know as well as anybody they're differences. But Jetta.(sedan)is the more balanced car, almost perfect 50/50.again not an opinion, that's fact. The jsw might even be better, idk, never looked into it... I think your missing the point here.,it's not that the gti is bad or the jsw is just as good as the gti. It comes back to one saying that jsw , in there mind , is somewhat of a drivers car. Another guy laughed at his statement. I simply said that I didn't think it was that laughable seeing that the jsw shares the same
> platform as the gti. I never gave an opinion about what I think of the gti or the jsw. All I gave was the facts. The opinionated part was just that I didn't think it was a crazy thing to say. And that's because of the praise I have for the gti. If the gti is that good, you can't say the others are rubbish, is kinda the point .
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


uhh


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

This just got a whoooole lot more expensive.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/newsrelease.php?id=840


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

GoFaster said:


> This just got a whoooole lot more expensive.
> 
> http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/newsrelease.php?id=840


Damn... that rejection letter is savage!!


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

GoFaster said:


> This just got a whoooole lot more expensive.
> 
> http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/newsrelease.php?id=840


WOW. Didn't Volkswagen's counsel say at the June settlement meeting that they were confident that VW could fix the 3L vehicles?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

I don't know, from the top of page 3 of the rejection letter it doesn't seem to say that they aren't fixing it correctly just that they aren't demonstrating and describing things as they need to. Looks like a correct proposal using the same fix could still work.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

GoFaster said:


> This just got a whoooole lot more expensive.
> 
> http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/newsrelease.php?id=840


The entire rejection letter: www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_info/vw-diesel-info/2016_07_13_audi_vw_3l_recall_rejection_cover_letter.pdf

Porsche also got one: www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_info/vw-diesel-info/2016_07_13_porsche_3l_recall_rejection_cover_letter.pdf


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

"I don't know, from the top of page 3 of the rejection letter it doesn't seem to say that they aren't fixing it correctly just that they aren't demonstrating and describing things as they need to. Looks like a correct proposal using the same fix could still work."

Maybe, but this is a very scathing, and very public, repudiation of VW's submisssions. The message is not reassuring to VW or collaborative in message or tone. It conveys disgust. Words like "substantially deficient" and "fall far short of meeting the legal requirements" are intentional. CARB, and thus EPA, are displeased. CARB is also angry that VW still isn't coming clean - "First, VW and AUDI have failed to disclose and provide a full description of all defeat devices and AECDs." CARB says that VW has given it nothing to evaluate whether the fixes could even be "successful or technically feasible." Ouch. 

And for those among us who are skeptical that a fix will not affect drivability, this: [T]he proposed plan does not address impacts the proposed fixes would have on the engine, the vehicle's overall operation such as drivability and fuel economy, and all related emission control technologies...

Read this in context of the 2.0 settlement which has gone forward without a fix for the 2.0. CARB is saying, in part, that VW STILL is not coming clean (pun recognized and intended).


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Wow on the 3.0l rejection. Wasn't the 3.0l supposed to be easier to fix? So does this mean, that a fix for the 2.0l cars is less likely?


----------



## jannikt (Sep 25, 2015)

The real issue is that VW still does not understand that things work differently in USA than in Europe. For reference I am dual-citizen and have both US and EU nationality, and I have worked professionally (as engineering manager) on both sides of the pond. I am quite familiar with both US and EU laws regarding emissions, permitting, etc.

The problem is that in Europe certain classes of people ("old money") and corporations (large European firms that employ thousands of people) are untouchable and are "above the law". European governments have a long-standing tradition of turning a blind eye or favoring such individuals and corporations for the sake of a "greater good". It doesn't matter if a company like VW cheats or breaks the law, as long as they create lots of jobs and pay tons of taxes. In Europe, politicians, the legal system and executives of large companies are much more "in bed" with each other as in the USA. Unlike USA, Europe really lacks a fully independent judicial system, and the political influence over judges, prosecutors and regulators is much greater than on this side of the pond. The American system isn't of course 100% perfect, but business and special interests influence is mostly limited to lobbying and making "contribution" to legislators. Judges as well as regulatory bodies (such as EPA and CARB) are mostly independent and, while subject to political pressures, can operate accordingly to the law and their own "conscience". Such independence simply does not exist in Europe.

VW executives clearly don't understand it. They think that just because they are large, employ many people in Europe and are a cash-cow for the German government, they deserve a "special treatment" from the regulators. They firmly believe that putting a little bit more pollution in their air is nothing compared to the great social and economic benefit they deliver to the EU. They simply don't get it that to an American judge or the CARB they are just another legal entity, with the same "weight" as an individual person or a small business that employs 2 or 3 people. Everybody is equal to the American law (again, it's not 100% perfect, but a much more level playing field than in Europe).

VW executive live in denial and don't understand what's the whole fuzz about. How on earth CARB dares to challenge them? They keep dragging their feet and providing half-answers hoping that some powerful politicians will intercede on their behalf and somehow the whole issue will simply go away. The only person in VW who probably understood the situation was Michael Horn (due to his tenure in the USA), and that's why he resigned. He knew that he would never be able to convince his bosses that VW will have to come 100% clean on the issue or will lose again and again in the USA.

Until VW management admits the guilt and acts in 100% compliance with regulator's demands, it will only get worse and worse for them. I wouldn't be surprised that the US lawyers hired by VW will soon get fed up with VW management and recuse them from the case.

VW should have learned from Toyota and GM which, when confronted with a serious public relations and legal issue, did a full disclosure, made a public "mea culpa" and went above and beyond to satisfy both regulatory agencies and consumers. Unfortunately VW hubris and European business culture legacy is just too much to overcome.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

So true. I've worked for a German company and my wife has worked for German and Swiss companies. The Swiss are even worse. 

Waiting for California to state that they will refuse to re-register any non-compliant VW and Porsche due to these companies dicking around with regulations and dragging their feet on a complete response, bringing on a flood of individual lawsuits from customers.

Not sure about lawyers throwing up their hands with VW. My experience is that they generally throw more lawyers on the case for many, many more billable hours. If 12 lawyers didn't get the response we wanted, let's put 100 on it.


----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

Bird67 said:


> "I don't know, from the top of page 3 of the rejection letter it doesn't seem to say that they aren't fixing it correctly just that they aren't demonstrating and describing things as they need to. Looks like a correct proposal using the same fix could still work."
> 
> Maybe, but this is a very scathing, and very public, repudiation of VW's submisssions. The message is not reassuring to VW or collaborative in message or tone. It conveys disgust. Words like "substantially deficient" and "fall far short of meeting the legal requirements" are intentional.


No, this isn't a big deal at all. This letter is almost identical to the rejection letter CARB sent to VW back in January for the 2.0 L engines, and here we are talking about the settlement. There's really nothing to see here in the 3.0 L letter. It's just posturing.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

eweu said:


> No, this isn't a big deal at all. This letter is almost identical to the rejection letter CARB sent to VW back in January for the 2.0 L engines, and here we are talking about the settlement. There's really nothing to see here in the 3.0 L letter. It's just posturing.



Talking about the settlement terms, yes. Anywhere close to having an approved fix in order for those cars to remain on the road? Doesn't sound like it.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

jannikt said:


> The real issue is that VW still does not understand that things work differently in USA than in Europe. For reference I am dual-citizen and have both US and EU nationality, and I have worked professionally (as engineering manager) on both sides of the pond. I am quite familiar with both US and EU laws regarding emissions, permitting, etc.





eweu said:


> No, this isn't a big deal at all. This letter is almost identical to the rejection letter CARB sent to VW back in January for the 2.0 L engines, and here we are talking about the settlement. There's really nothing to see here in the 3.0 L letter. It's just posturing.



See the below quote from Porsche CEO Oliver Blume regarding the 3.0L TDI. It leads me to believe the issue is larger than just German business culture and political posturing from CARB -- certainly that's part of it though.



Porsche CEO Oliver Blume in January 2016: said:


> "Everything we can do for this particular engine has been done for now and we are now awaiting feedback."


Source: Jalopnik.com

The reason I say this is because the data CARB is asking for is actually quite reasonable. What they're requesting is pretty similar to what's required to be submitted to the EPA and CARB when initially certifying a new model for production. It's a bit concerning that VW can't provide the data, or at least a projected analysis. It seems like they don't have a clue on how to get these cars to meet the emissions regulations -- even the ones with SCR and urea injection.

To me, CARB's response may not be a big deal, but VW's lack of a plan to meet emissions is a big deal. Sometimes what _isn't_ said (or done) is just as important as what is.


----------



## YikeGrymon (Sep 12, 2005)

jannikt said:


> The real issue is that VW still does not understand that things work differently in USA than in Europe.... <snip>....Unfortunately VW hubris and European business culture legacy is just too much to overcome.


effing well put


----------



## Bird67 (Dec 6, 2012)

eweu said:


> No, this isn't a big deal at all. This letter is almost identical to the rejection letter CARB sent to VW back in January for the 2.0 L engines, and here we are talking about the settlement. There's really nothing to see here in the 3.0 L letter. It's just posturing.


Respectfully disagree. This is a big deal. If as you say VW received the same letter for the 2.0 that is troubling for VW because we know VW has no fix for the 2.0. That is the reason for the 2.0 buyback. VW does not want to buy back the 3.0 vehicles but will have to unless they pull an engineering miracle.


----------



## hayde89 (Jun 22, 2015)

*The buyback may not be so easy.*

My father visited a dealership to order a Golf R. Dealer told him that cars brought in will be rated with not only mileage and year but for imperfections such as dings and check engine lights. He is a little pissed about this because he has the check engine light caused by a sensor that in the past VW has been clueless on finding a fix. That sucks for him and makes me think about parking mine until the the buyback is approved and rolled out. I hope this isn't true. He was also told that every dealer is only being allocated 3 alltracks... VW must not like money or returning customers.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

jannikt said:


> Unfortunately VW hubris and European business culture legacy is just too much to overcome.


Hey now, as an murrican I can proudly say Europe doesn't have the market cornered on this :laugh:


----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

Bird67 said:


> Respectfully disagree. This is a big deal. If as you say VW received the same letter for the 2.0 that is troubling for VW because we know VW has no fix for the 2.0. That is the reason for the 2.0 buyback. VW does not want to buy back the 3.0 vehicles but will have to unless they pull an engineering miracle.


A reasonable person cannot read both letters and conclude the second letter offers any further damage to VW. They are so similar that I would call them boilerplate -- in fact nearly identical. Most of the prose details the lack of engineering and project planning detail provided to CARB. And the 3.0 L letter is in response to information supplied to CARB all the way back in February.

Sure it's likely that the 3.0 L vehicles will be part of the buyback. That would happen even if VW had a slam dunk fix for those engines because they need to avoid upsetting the class of owner that wouldn't even be satisfied with a fix. Additionally, CARB would force the issue because they smell blood in the water.

So there really isn't anything new in this letter. It's really just an "oh, and these engines too" letter. It is delayed because the 3.0 L engines were initially thought to be in compliance.


----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

hayde89 said:


> Dealer told him


Found the problem.

Dealers don't know any more than you do. They don't have any special insight or secret hotline.


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

jannikt said:


> The problem is that in Europe certain classes of people ("old money") and corporations (large European firms that employ thousands of people) are untouchable and are "above the law". European governments have a long-standing tradition of turning a blind eye or favoring such individuals and corporations for the sake of a "greater good". It doesn't matter if a company like VW cheats or breaks the law, as long as they create lots of jobs and pay tons of taxes. In Europe, politicians, the legal system and executives of large companies are much more "in bed" with each other as in the USA. Unlike USA, Europe really lacks a fully independent judicial system, and the political influence over judges, prosecutors and regulators is much greater than on this side of the pond. The American system isn't of course 100% perfect, but business and special interests influence is mostly limited to lobbying and making "contribution" to legislators. Judges as well as regulatory bodies (such as EPA and CARB) are mostly independent and, while subject to political pressures, can operate accordingly to the law and their own "conscience". Such independence simply does not exist in Europe.


Here in the US, we just have different modes of corruption than in Europe. Look at the huge amounts of money that comes into our election campaigns from Wall Street, pharma, and energy companies. Look at how many politicians go to work for these companies after their terms in public office. Look at how the big money affects the selection of judicial appointments and heads of regulatory agencies, and how those officials rule when they get on the bench. I would not call them "mostly independent" when they rule on issues that affect their sugar daddies. When Wall Street cratered the economy in 2008 (a vastly bigger impact on consumers than Dieselgate), there was lots of hand-wringing, investigations, and litigations. But the big banks only got slaps on the wrist. "For the greater good", no doubt.

I don't disagree that European governments have major cultural differences from the way things work here. But our system is FAR from perfect.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

hayde89 said:


> My father visited a dealership to order a Golf R. Dealer told him that cars brought in will be rated with not only mileage and year but for imperfections such as dings and check engine lights. He is a little pissed about this because he has the check engine light caused by a sensor that in the past VW has been clueless on finding a fix. That sucks for him and makes me think about parking mine until the the buyback is approved and rolled out. I hope this isn't true. He was also told that every dealer is only being allocated 3 alltracks... VW must not like money or returning customers.





eweu said:


> Found the problem.
> 
> Dealers don't know any more than you do. They don't have any special insight or secret hotline.


Have to agree with the above. No where in any of the documentation does it mention anything about imperfections or outstanding issues with the vehicle. Beyond it not being able to drive in under it's own power that is. 
If the buyback suddenly involved going over the car with a fine tooth comb to nickel and dime the customers, I'm quite positive that there would not be approval by those customers, and likely not by the judge either. 
The docs make it very perfectly clear how to calculate what you get +/- for options and mileage - all based on the NADA Clean Trade value - hence, every car is being treated as Clean. 

That dealer is probably trying to get him to trade in the car earlier by convincing that their trade value will be better than the buyback because they'll 'look the other way on the dings' or something...


----------



## Ryan_GTI (Dec 22, 2004)

eweu said:


> Found the problem.
> 
> Dealers don't know any more than you do. They don't have any special insight or secret hotline.


Exactly. Dealers were saying there was no chance of a buyback a few months ago.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Ryan_GTI said:


> Exactly. Dealers were saying there was no chance of a buyback a few months ago.


I actually sent the links to the buyback information to two of my friends who work at the VW dealer I go to. They have no clue. Or so they claim. :laugh::laugh:


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

.yuk. said:


> I actually sent the links to the buyback information to two of my friends who work at the VW dealer I go to. They have no clue. Or so they claim. :laugh::laugh:


Dealers are supposed to find out on the 18th.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

E CODE said:


> No where in any of the documentation does it mention anything about imperfections or outstanding issues with the vehicle. Beyond it not being able to drive in under it's own power that is.
> If the buyback suddenly involved going over the car with a fine tooth comb to nickel and dime the customers, I'm quite positive that there would not be approval by those customers, and likely not by the judge either.
> The docs make it very perfectly clear how to calculate what you get +/- for options and mileage - all based on the NADA Clean Trade value - hence, every car is being treated as Clean.


Yup what is in the (pending) court stuff is what it is, there is nothing about subtracting for damage or anything like that. 

This is a settlement they can't just make crap up after the fact and change the terms.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

eweu said:


> A reasonable person cannot read both letters and conclude the second letter offers any further damage to VW. They are so similar that I would call them boilerplate -- in fact nearly identical. Most of the prose details the lack of engineering and project planning detail provided to CARB. And the 3.0 L letter is in response to information supplied to CARB all the way back in February.


As far as the letter being boilerplate or similar to the 2.0L letter... that's not what is significant. You're not really going to get any new information from CARB (or the EPA) because all they can do is state the regulation and data required for certification. VW is legally required to provide that information before CARB (or the EPA) can grant approval -- as is every other automaker.



eweu said:


> Sure it's likely that the 3.0 L vehicles will be part of the buyback. That would happen even if VW had a slam dunk fix for those engines because they need to avoid upsetting the class of owner that wouldn't even be satisfied with a fix. Additionally, CARB would force the issue because they smell blood in the water.


When a vehicle is found to be non-compliant, CARB and the EPA cannot raise the emissions standards to avoid upsetting 3.0L owners, or to punish VW, or to "force" a buy back. Reading the letter, the information CARB is asking for is nothing more than what is required to legally certify any car in the first place. What CARB and the EPA _can _do is put VW's submittals under greater scrutiny, but they cannot raise the bar or change the rules. There's no evidence in CARB's response that they're forcing a buy back. There is evidence that VW submitted an incomplete proposal.

If VW had a "slam dunk" fix for those engines, CARB and the EPA would be legally required to approve the fix. The fact is VW *doesn't* have a "slam dunk" fix, which is why buybacks are the table. That has everything to do with VW, but little to do with CARB or the EPA.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Ryan_GTI said:


> Exactly. Dealers were saying there was no chance of a buyback a few months ago.


tis true.

my contact (and I cant divulge his position) had all of the corporate (VW) info as well as dealer (one of the largest auto dealers in the nation) where they were told a fix was available and buybacks weren't going to happen. I even posted in in this thread.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

Ok, so all along I have planned on letting VW buy the car back. Now my wife is encouraging me to pick up 16 GTi as there are some crazy deals out there. If i were to trade in the car, do I get any of the settlement money?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

VT1.8T said:


> Ok, so all along I have planned on letting VW buy the car back. Now my wife is encouraging me to pick up 16 GTi as there are some crazy deals out there. If i were to trade in the car, do I get any of the settlement money?


I wouldn't do anything until after the 29th personally as the requirements and payouts may change for someone in your scenario (or any really).

A vw dealer as far as I"m aware according to the current settlement is not entitled to any sort of buyback/fix money. So they would likely offer you current bottom dollar trade in. I can't see how that is worth it unless 3-4 more payments would be financially impossible. I've been doing double payments with one I don't even drive, I know how much it sucks but glad I didn't sell it at last fall.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I believe it had a *sell by* date in the proposal. Meaning if you were to sell your car post such date you give up the payout. I'll look for it, since I'm not positive if that's what it actually meant. :thumbup:


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

Dealer that sold us the car just called me to see if we had any questions on the transpirings so far and if I did the buyback calculation. My number was the same as the guy told me. :thumbup:

They got me on a contact list for information on the Alltrack. Said they're supposed to get some more concrete delivery/order information in the next few weeks. :beer:


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Sump said:


> Dealer that sold us the car just called me to see if we had any questions on the transpirings so far and if I did the buyback calculation. My number was the same as the guy told me. :thumbup:
> 
> They got me on a contact list for information on the Alltrack. Said they're supposed to get some more concrete delivery/order information in the next few weeks. :beer:


That's a sign of a good dealer right there. They obviously are putting in some early effort to sell new cars to TDI owners.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

After reading articles like this, I am certain there are more Volkswagen type cases pending.

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...as-cafe-fines-jump?cciid=email-autonews-blast

Industry blindsided as CAFE fines jump



Automotive News said:


> WASHINGTON -- Automakers worried about the cost of meeting fuel economy targets are waking up to a startling new reality: The cost of not meeting them is about to get a lot higher.
> 
> Next month, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration will more than double the fine it assesses automakers that fall short of their annual corporate average fuel economy standards. For many automakers, that increase could upend the economics of their fuel economy compliance strategies, laid out years ago, and insiders worry that automakers' exposure to fines for noncompliance will only grow as the CAFE requirements grow tougher each year.
> 
> ...


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> After reading articles like this, I am certain there are more Volkswagen type cases pending.
> 
> http://www.autonews.com/article/201...as-cafe-fines-jump?cciid=email-autonews-blast
> 
> Industry blindsided as CAFE fines jump


I don't agree with the changes to the fines but with Land Rover (worst offender) looking at previous fines of about $9 million a year ($46.2 over 5 model years) doubling to $18 million a year and deciding the risk of an $15 billion VW decision making sense are small. 

At $15 billion I think VW is paying 833 years worth of $18 million fines?


----------



## rick8018 (Jan 3, 2001)

I found http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-promises-u-s-dealers-restitution-for-tainted-diesels-1468747369?mod=yahoo_hs&yptr=yahoo and noticed this bit near the end...

"Customers who opt to sell their vehicles back to Volkswagen would first contact a third-party “settlement specialist,” who, in turn, would handle communications with the dealer, according to the documents distributed by Volkswagen."

Sounds like complications will ensue.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

rick8018 said:


> I found http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-promises-u-s-dealers-restitution-for-tainted-diesels-1468747369?mod=yahoo_hs&yptr=yahoo and noticed this bit near the end...
> 
> "Customers who opt to sell their vehicles back to Volkswagen would first contact a third-party “settlement specialist,” who, in turn, would handle communications with the dealer, according to the documents distributed by Volkswagen."
> 
> Sounds like complications will ensue.


I said a long time ago I didn't see the buyback of possibly hundreds of thousands of cars being simple for anyone involved and one of the big problems will be how the average person that needs the money before he can buy another car deals with it. The thought of driving the car to the dealer and him handing you a check seems to be looking less likely. So owner contacts third party, third party contacts dealer, dealer works with VW Corporate and then at some point you get an answer back and find out the procedures to follow and where to drop your car off?

Then if the buyback is so complicated it makes many just decide to trade their car in to their VW dealer on another car is actually a benefit to VW and their dealers it makes me wonder how hard they will try to make it easy to get rid of a VW and go buy something else.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW readies restitution for frustrated U.S. dealers, report says*



> Volkswagen AG executives in the United States have promised restitution within a month for American franchise dealers damaged by the carmaker's diesel emissions violations, The Wall Street Journal reported on Sunday, citing dealers.
> 
> A senior American executive from Volkswagen made the pledge at a meeting on Friday with over 150 dealers from the northeast at a hotel in New Jersey, the paper said, citing dealers that met with the company.
> 
> ...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> So owner contacts third party, third party contacts dealer, dealer works with VW Corporate and then at some point you get an answer back and find out the procedures to follow and where to drop your car off?


Minus the details of it being the rep trained at the dealer which is mentioned in the court documents or it being a third party this is all basically spelled out in the pending settlement.

You don't get a check that day.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> Minus the details of it being the rep trained at the dealer which is mentioned in the court documents or it being a third party this is all basically spelled out in the pending settlement.
> 
> You don't get a check that day.


I must have missed it. Does it spell out the timeline of events for the owner how this actually works for the guy that needs money/trade to buy another car?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> I must have missed it. Does it spell out the timeline of events for the owner how this actually works for the guy that needs money/trade to buy another car?


Blanking on the specific time lines so these were just estimated:

They have 30 days from you initiating a buyback to finalize it.

They have like 10 days to cut you a check once the vehicle has been turned in

They have like 3 days to initiate an ACH transfer. 


Even if trading into a VW dealer you'd still be in a position where if the funds from this were required to buy the next car it may be a few days without. A vw dealer may be willing to work with you but there isn't anything currently special in there that would make that purchase any different or any easier just for buying another VW compared to another one.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

I expect VW will make it very difficult for you to keep the oil burner. Paperwork, third party consultation, mailings that get lost...they want you out of the TDI. As I understand it, they have to get 85% of them off of the roads. 

I expect they will develop a channel to allow other auto makers to assist with the buyback.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> Paperwork, third party consultation, mailings that get lost...they want you out of the TDI.


wait how does that help them get you out of the car?



> As I understand it, they have to get 85% of them off of the roads.



100% can remain on the road, 85% have to be fixed or bought back.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> I expect VW will make it very difficult for you to keep the oil burner. Paperwork, third party consultation, mailings that get lost...they want you out of the TDI. As I understand it, they have to get 85% of them off of the roads.
> 
> I expect they will develop a channel to allow other auto makers to assist with the buyback.


What they probably want to do it make the buyback process complicated so you just trade in at the dealer, which is typically easier and will be less costly for VW. Plenty of people would be willing to get less money on a trade rather than go through some complicated buyback procedure that delays getting you the funds, even if for just 10 days.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

chris86vw said:


> Blanking on the specific time lines so these were just estimated:
> 
> They have 30 days from you initiating a buyback to finalize it.
> 
> ...


Gaah. I just realized that those of us who want the cars to be fixed won't get a dime from VW until the fix is 'approved' and installed, and for those of us in CARB states where registration could be blocked if the approval is denied, then we'll be forced into a buyback years before we planned on replacing the cars. So, even with the buyback $$, we'll be out significant bucks to replace the cars even though they're running just fine (albeit spitting out more NOx) and it will make more pollution to create another car than it would be to use up the useful life on the TDI for another 7 years.

Crap.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

chris86vw said:


> wait how does that help them get you out of the car?
> 
> 100% can remain on the road, 85% have to be fixed or bought back.


Meaning VW will make it difficult for you to keep your car.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

spockcat said:


> What they probably want to do it make the buyback process complicated so you just trade in at the dealer, which is typically easier and will be less costly for VW. Plenty of people would be willing to get less money on a trade rather than go through some complicated buyback procedure that delays getting you the funds, even if for just 10 days.


My point exactly.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> Plenty of people would be willing to get less money on a trade rather than go through some complicated buyback procedure that delays getting you the funds, even if for just 10 days.



This isn't plenty of people.

They is TDI owner, these are the type of people who will camp in the dealer parking lot until the funds clear in order to save the $6.37 in fuel costs it would take to go back and forth to the dealer.

I witnessed a guy one time when working at the VW dealer come marching back into service after realizing the loaner was a gas vehicle demanding they give him a TDI loaner or sign something saying that they would reimburse him for the difference in fuel costs to operate the loaner for the 2-3 days he would have it.


So no plenty of them are not going to just take a trade in to save waiting a week for free month. If 5 people out of 500k do, I'd be shocked.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> My point exactly.


Are you sure you have a point.

You are simultaneously trying to say VW will do everything to prevent you from keeping your car while also making it as difficult as possible to get rid of your car...:screwy:





> Meaning VW will make it difficult for you to keep your car.


No that has nothing at all to do with VWs wants, you don't even understand what the terms of the settlement are. The EPA and CARB are the ones demanding that 85% be bought back or fixed. VW would prefer that you just keep your car and pretend this never happens. VWs only reason to be interested in you not keeping or fixing (you keep ignoring that part) your car is that they will be penalized at the end of the settlement period if they do not meet 85%. VW is not making it difficult for you to keep your car that is EPA/CARB.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> This isn't plenty of people.


I think TDI ownership has diversified over the years. Lots of them owned by people who thought they were buying clean, economical transportation. Even some used in fleet service (I recall seeing Labcorp marked TDI vehicles for one). If VW makes buyback complicated enough (not just making people wait for their money), there will be some that say screw-it and trade in. Maybe not with VW because they are pissed at the company but at other dealers. We've already had people in this thread who are leaning that way or perhaps traded in already.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Still not seeing all the millionaire TDI owners represented that are making over 5k an hour where this isn't worth their time, nor am I seeing how this is in anyway complicated. 

This is no more complicated than an end of lease turn in that doesn't allow you to trade it into another manufacture requiring you to deal with two dealers to be able to buy a new car. It is actually likely less complicated since at this point there is no evidence that VW is going to send you a card to check for the sizes of dents and scratches or check tread wear and possibly send you a bill down the road.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

Chilcoot said:


> Or, if you still won't accept either offer, you can try to keep driving the car as-is and hope the regulators in your state aren't particularly concerned with complying with the Clean Air Act and the terms of the grants they take from Washington DC to enforce it.


They are not, rightfully :thumbup:

/wehavebiggerproblems


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> Blanking on the specific time lines so these were just estimated:
> 
> They have 30 days from you initiating a buyback to finalize it.
> 
> ...





chris86vw said:


> This is no more complicated than an end of lease turn in that doesn't allow you to trade it into another manufacture requiring you to deal with two dealers to be able to buy a new car. It is actually likely less complicated since at this point there is no evidence that VW is going to send you a card to check for the sizes of dents and scratches or check tread wear and possibly send you a bill down the road.


I see the above as far more difficult than a standard lease turn in. Most go get car #2, turn in car #1 and worst case is you owe some charges. You aren't waiting on a large amount of money on car #1 so you can buy/lease another car and you didn't have to plan 30 days in advance to initialize the process or wait 3-10 days to get an ACH or check (check comes with a large delay).

Once you turn the VW in, you don't have the money or the car for at least some amount of time. Hopefully only 3 days but I have my doubts about the program going exactly as planned and I guess the other car you are trying to buy they hold it for you during this process or you need to find it immediately after you turn the VW in. Basically for car #2 you tell them they have a deal and you hope to be back in 3 days with the money (then you rent or borrow a car for at least three days).


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> I see the above as far more difficult than a standard lease turn in. *Most go get car #2, turn in car #1* and worst case is you owe some charges. You aren't waiting on a large amount of money on car #1 so you can buy/lease another car and you didn't have to plan 30 days in advance to initialize the process or wait 3-10 days to get an ACH or check (check comes with a large delay).
> 
> Once you turn the VW in, you don't have the money or the car for at least some amount of time. Hopefully only 3 days but I have my doubts about the program going exactly as planned and I guess the other car you are trying to buy they hold it for you during this process or you need to find it immediately after you turn the VW in. Basically for car #2 you tell them they have a deal and you hope to be back in 3 days with the money (then you rent or borrow a car for at least three days).



So what you are saying is that most people are not relying on the money from their current vehicle to acquire the second vehicle they are actually already acquiring a second vehicle a head of time, so why is this scenario suddenly all that different? Since when does a least turn in not take planning a head of time? Or do you mean that the process actually starts well before, takes longer, is more involved, and results in less money being returned to you? 



If I buy a Toyota monday and turn in my honda thursday how is this different?
If I turn in a honda monday and I go to toyota on thursday to buy a car how is this different?

Oh that's right the difference is that I get nothing a few days later outside maybe my security deposit or a bill for damages/miles in either of those and the VW scenario I get at least 5100 bucks..


All of this money will be in an escrow account and the way that this settlement was written it is in VWs best interest to get people out of cars quickly and easily. The faster VW processes cars the faster they can actually start taking funds back out of the escrow account. VW has absolutely no reason to hold up cutting checks or transferring money. 


You've not actually provided any evidence that this will be any more difficult or more of an inconvenience. And certainly no evidence that this is being done to drive people to buy VW replacements instead of something else. The process doesn't change whether you buy a VW, a time share, or a Honda.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> So what you are saying is that most people are not relying on the money from their current vehicle to acquire the second vehicle they are actually already acquiring a second vehicle a head of time, so why is this scenario suddenly all that different? Since when does a least turn in not take planning a head of time? Or do you mean that the process actually starts well before, takes longer, is more involved, and results in less money being returned to you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All I care about is knowing the process and when i can reasonably expect payment once the car is turned in. Knowing that, i have no problem financing a new car for full negotiated price and then getting the buyback money and using that to pay down a large part of the loan.

Not knowing when to expect the buyback money is stopped me from pulling the trigger on a new GTI this weekend. Since my car is paid off, I didn't mind taking out a full loan and making a few payments until i could pay it off in October with the buyback money. But then I realized that my assumption about getting the buyback money in October was just that, an assumption, and I did not want to put myself in the position of having the loan but no buyback money until much later than October. 

My brother in lal just participated in the dodge truck buyback and that was apparently quick and easy.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

From Exhibit 4:

*Step 4, paragraph 4.c* - For Claimants who currently own or lease an Eligible Vehicle, avisit to the Claimant’s preferred Volkswagen or Audi Dealer will be required tocomplete the remedy and must be scheduled in advance with Volkswagen.Appointments for a Buyback or Approved Emissions Modification will beavailable *within 90 days* of a Claimant’s acceptance of a formal offer.

*Paragraph 4.d* - Appointments for Buybacks andLease Terminations will be scheduled on a first-come, first-served basis.Claimants who have elected the Buyback or Lease Termination Option will beable to schedule online, or by telephone, an appointment with Volkswagen to taketheir Eligible Vehicles to their preferred Volkswagen or Audi Dealer for thesettlement. Although the Buyback or Lease Termination will take place at aVolkswagen or Audi Dealer, the appointments must be scheduled either onlinethrough the Claims Portal or via phone at 844-98-CLAIM.

And, the part I was specifically interested in, since I still owe money on my car:

If the Eligible Vehicle is under an outstandingloan obligation, Volkswagen will communicate with the Claimant’s bank inadvance of a Buyback, pursuant to a written consent form executed by theClaimant, to determine payoff amounts for any loans.

So basically, you go through steps 1-3 to confirm you're an eligible Owner, confirm your preferred method of restitution, and go through the website to set up your appt, they will work with my lender, eventually send them the money they need to close the loan, and give the rest to me, within 90 days.

*Step 5, paragraph 5.b* - On the appointed day, Claimants will meetwith a “Settlement Specialist” acting on behalf of Volkswagen at the Volkswagenor Audi Dealer to complete the Buyback or Lease Termination. The SettlementSpecialist will verify the identity of the Claimant and Eligible Vehicle, capture thecurrent mileage on the Eligible Vehicle, collect necessary documentation, takepossession of the Eligible Vehicle, and trigger payment to the Claimant (andlenders, if applicable) of any amount due.

To chris86vw's comments about timing of claiming the money:
*
Paragraph 5.d - *Payments. Buyback and Restitution Payments will be made by electronic fundtransfer or by check according to the preference expressed by each Claimant.i. Electronic Fund Transfer. An electronic fund transfer will be submittedwithin three banking days of completion of the Claims Process by virtueof, as applicable, (i) sale or surrender of the Eligible Vehicle; (ii)completion of an Approved Emissions Modification (if available)following the steps described above; or (iii) for Eligible Sellers andEligible Lessees who no longer own or lease an Eligible Vehicle,acceptance of an offer.



It will be interesting to see if/how dealers are able to translate these payments into potential down payments in new vehicles.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

VT1.8T said:


> All I care about is knowing the process and when i can reasonably expect payment once the car is turned in. Knowing that, i have no problem financing a new car for full negotiated price and then getting the buyback money and using that to pay down a large part of the loan.
> 
> Not knowing when to expect the buyback money is stopped me from pulling the trigger on a new GTI this weekend. Since my car is paid off, I didn't mind taking out a full loan and making a few payments until i could pay it off in October with the buyback money. But then I realized that my assumption about getting the buyback money in October was just that, an assumption, and I did not want to put myself in the position of having the loan but no buyback money until much later than October.
> 
> *My brother in lal just participated in the dodge truck buyback and that was apparently quick and easy.*


Yeah, I guess I misunderstood how this process would work. I figured I'd be able to schedule a time to come and do the buyback, have the vehicle identified and logged into the system (I mean, how hard can it be because all vehicles are being taken in regardless of condition as long as they come in under their own power). Take down the VIN, mileage, options, etc. and get to the check-cutting process.

I was expecting to go in, trade the car in, get the funds (~$25,000) to pay off my balance of my loan ($11,000 by the time October comes around) and use the reaming $14,000 balance to put $5000 down on a new GSW or AllTrack and put the final $9,000 in the bank. Of course, that was probably wishful thinking :laugh:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

veedubBiker said:


> From Exhibit 4:


This also says checks will be cut on the spot as long is there is no adjustment down in value:




> ii.
> Check.
> For Claimants who do not require an appointment to complete their remedy, a check will be sent by mail within three banking days. For Claimants who opt for a Buyback or Lease Termination, a check for the full amount due will be available at the Dealership, unless a mileage adjustment is required. If an upward mileage adjustment is required (resulting in a lower payment), the Claimant will not receive a check at the Volkswagen or Audi Dealer, but will be sent a check within three banking days. If a downward mileage adjustment is required (resulting in a higher payment), the Claimant will receive a check at the Volkswagen or Audi Dealer that does not reflect the mileage adjustment and will be mailed an additional check within three banking days for the additional amount due as a result of the downward mileage adjustment.



VW will even help you directly pay your back child support, seems like they are making this easy


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Mazda 3s said:


> Yeah, I guess I misunderstood how this process would work. I figured I'd be able to schedule a time to come and do the buyback, have the vehicle identified and logged into the system (I mean, how hard can it be because all vehicles are being taken in regardless of condition as long as they come in under their own power). Take down the VIN, mileage, options, etc. and get to the check-cutting process.


That is how it will work.




> I was expecting to go in, trade the car in, get the funds (~$25,000) to pay off my balance of my loan ($11,000 by the time October comes around) and use the reaming $14,000 balance to put $5000 down on a new GSW or AllTrack and put the final $9,000 in the bank. Of course, that was probably wishful thinking :laugh:


If you were selling your car to carmax and you owed 11k you wouldn't get a check for 25k, you'd get a check for 14k. This is the same.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

So the first thing to keep in mind is that the *Final Approval* is scheduled for early October, and the buyback program needs to begin "expeditiously" after Final Approval. So, figure mid, maybe late October. Once you go online and file your claim (or by mail :what, the claims supervisor will need to verify legitimacy of the claim. There is no timeline given for this activity. Once that's done, you will receive a formal offer. Ostensibly, this could all happen within a matter of days, assuming all the communication occurs through the claims portal. Once you've accepted your formal offer, your local dealership will have up to 90 days to schedule your appt to come in and close the claim. From there, you turn in the vehicle, the Settlement Specialist at the dealership has 3 days to close out your loan, if applicable, and "trigger payment" to the claimant. This will either be ACH payment, or mailing of a hard check, either within 3 banking days.

So, I'm not planning on seeing any money until January.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

So my/our thoughts are going to be this:

Get the BB process started, either plan wife's work from home days or rent/borrow car for the 3+ days and THEN go purchase the replacement (maybe already on hold/deposit) and have small loan with large down vs. paying down car loan which doesn't change your payment amount but will overall length of loan. Just sucks overall and *VW better not F this up too!*


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> That is how it will work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's what I meant to say. The $11,000 would be immediately taken to pay off the loan I have with VW Credit. My buyback amount is $25,000 and of course the original loan would have to be taken out of that amount.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> So my/our thoughts are going to be this:
> 
> Get the BB process started, either plan wife's work from home days or rent/borrow car for the 3+ days and THEN go purchase the replacement (maybe already on hold/deposit) and have small loan with large down vs. paying down car loan which doesn't change your payment amount but will overall length of loan. Just sucks overall and *VW better not F this up too!*



Yeah, my intent is to use the buyback money as down pmt money....I really need the upfront payment to keep the monthly payments reasonable. I'm waiting to see what the dealerships can do to get people out in a new car the same day, maybe a side agreement signing over the remainder of the buyback money to the dealership, or signing over the car to the dealership as a trade in and let them deal with it or something.


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

I'm happy this is all getting formalized.

Not terribly stoked on waiting until possibly January though.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

veedubBiker said:


> So the first thing to keep in mind is that the *Final Approval* is scheduled for early October,


You mean Late july? although lots of things are based on an effective date which is the later of a few things none of which are set in stone. 



> and the buyback program needs to begin "expeditiously" after Final Approval. So, figure mid, maybe late October.


I believe it says specifically 90 days from effective date somewhere, hence their examples of October and instructing people to do 13 months x the 104X mileage adjustment on those appendix sheets. But that is the later of 3 things I believe it was which the court themselves could even hold up. 

Again VW gets to take funds out if the amount in the escrow account is greater than what hey would have to pay out for the cars left on the road, so the quicker they start the quicker they get money back, it is of little interest to them to delay this.



> Once you go online and file your claim (or by mail :what,


don't forget fax! 



> the claims supervisor will need to verify legitimacy of the claim. There is no timeline given for this activity. Once that's done, you will receive a formal offer. Ostensibly, this could all happen within a matter of days, assuming all the communication occurs through the claims portal. Once you've accepted your formal offer, your local dealership will have up to 90 days to schedule your appt to come in and close the claim.


This where it seems to get confusing, as you say there is no timeline for that activity, but the (pending) court order doesn't seem to actually reference that activity either.



> B. Except as provided in Section XII, Defendant will complete a Buyback of an Eligible Vehicle within 90 days of an Eligible Owner’s election to schedule an appointment for an approved Buyback."





> From there, you turn in the vehicle, the Settlement Specialist at the dealership has 3 days to close out your loan, if applicable, and "trigger payment" to the claimant. This will either be ACH payment, or mailing of a hard check, either within 3 banking days.


Or that day, you could get paid that day. :thumbup:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Mazda 3s said:


> That's what I meant to say. The $11,000 would be immediately taken to pay off the loan I have with VW Credit. My buyback amount is $25,000 and of course the original loan would have to be taken out of that amount.


Ok way it was worded made me think that you expected a check and were on your honor to go pay off the other car loan, with some of the stuff said here seemed like a plausible situation people believed would happen :thumbup:


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> You mean Late july? although lots of things are based on an effective date which is the later of a few things none of which are set in stone.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it says specifically 90 days from effective date somewhere, hence their examples of October and instructing people to do 13 months x the 104X mileage adjustment on those appendix sheets. But that is the later of 3 things I believe it was which the court themselves could even hold up.


This is the timeline I was referring to. Final Approval Hearing scheduled to begin on 10/3, pending results of objections and actual Preliminary Approval granted on 7/26.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

OK, so what does one do if the DPF is now at the end of its useful life with the dash light illuminated?

1. Park car and wait until oct and drive the car into the dealer in limp mode?
2. Take car to get fixed for ~3k?
3. Get A Malone tune and keep driving?
4. Call VWoA and tell them to cover the repair now?


----------



## Threecube (Jun 2, 2014)

http://ca.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idCAKCN0ZY2ID

Hopefully this article is right that Canadians are getting a similar settlement to what the US got. Guess we will wait and see on the 29th.


----------



## EJPolaski (Sep 24, 2008)

AJB said:


> OK, so what does one do if the DPF is now at the end of its useful life with the dash light illuminated?
> 
> 1. Park car and wait until oct and drive the car into the dealer in limp mode?
> 2. Take car to get fixed for ~3k?
> ...


If I were you, I'd park it. Unless you only have 1 car to drive, the risks don't outweigh the expected payday IMHO. Luckily my JSW is in fine working order, but since the actual dollar figures have been announced, it sits in the driveway. Not going to risk getting hit and taking a bath on a reduced insurance payout.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Threecube said:


> http://ca.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idCAKCN0ZY2ID
> 
> Hopefully this article is right that Canadians are getting a similar settlement to what the US got. Guess we will wait and see on the 29th.


Hope so!


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Uberhare said:


> So, per the document you linked it says persons are eligible to be included in the class action lawsuit if you are the owner or lease on or prior to September 18th 2015. I bought my TDI Golf in November 2015. Does this mean I'm excluded from the entire buyback/payment offer?


Anyone know the answer??


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

EJPolaski said:


> If I were you, I'd park it. Unless you only have 1 car to drive, the risks don't outweigh the expected payday IMHO. Luckily my JSW is in fine working order, but since the actual dollar figures have been announced, it sits in the driveway. Not going to risk getting hit and taking a bath on a reduced insurance payout.


We do have a third car, but really can't afford to not drive the TDI. I'm thinking about reaching out to VWoA and see what they have to say....


----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

Uberhare said:


> Anyone know the answer??


You are _not_ excluded.



Court Settlement said:


> 2.16. “Class” means, for purposes of this Class Action Settlement only, a nationwide class of all persons (including individuals and entities) who, .... between September 18, 2015, and the end of the Claim Period, become a registered owner of an Eligible Vehicle.


It goes on to say that you will be excluded if you transfer title before either taking the buyback, or the repair compensation.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Apparently VW forgot to cut Maryland in on the handouts;

*VW to face suit from U.S. states over diesel emissions, Maryland attorney general says*



> Maryland Attorney General Brian Frosh said in a statement that his state and others plan to sue Volkswagen AG over the environmental damage done by the carmaker's so-called defeat devices designed to cheat pollution-control tests.
> 
> Frosh said Maryland is acting in coordination with the attorneys general of New York and Massachusetts, among others.
> 
> He said a press conference is scheduled for Tuesday to release more details about the suit.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Uberhare said:


> Anyone know the answer??


You must not of read of the last 20 pages breh. Just like myself (bought my JSW 11/15), you will get half of the compensation but are also still eligible for the buyback.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW's dirty diesels won't meet U.S. air standards even after recall*



> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen Group's $15.3 billion U.S. settlement for cheating on emissions tests fell short in one key respect: even after the cars are recalled and repaired they won’t be fully compliant with clean-air laws.
> 
> VW’s oldest 2.0-liter diesels covered by the case -- including Jetta, Golf and Beetle models dating back to 2009 -- will emit more pollution than allowed under the emissions standards the company evaded, the settlement released on June 28 shows. To compensate, VW will contribute billions of dollars to environmental programs.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

spockcat said:


> Apparently VW forgot to cut Maryland in on the handouts;
> 
> *VW to face suit from U.S. states over diesel emissions, Maryland attorney general says*


More info on this story:

*Three U.S. states plan lawsuits over Volkswagen diesel pollution*



> WASHINGTON -- Three U.S. states plan to unveil new lawsuits against Volkswagen Group tied to the automaker's sale of diesel vehicles with emissions-cheating software, even after they announced settlements with the automaker in June.
> 
> Maryland Attorney General Brian E. Frosh said in a news release that he would disclose details of the Volkswagen suit on Tuesday that accuses VW of violating state environmental laws and defrauding regulators.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW seeks settlement with Canadian diesel owners, paper says*



> FRANKFURT -- Volkswagen Group is seeking a settlement with Canadian diesel vehicle owners similar to the one reached in the U.S., German newspaper Handelsblatt reported, citing a source at the automaker.
> 
> Volkswagen last month agreed to pay as much as $15.3 billion after admitting it cheated on U.S. diesel-emissions tests for years, to buy back vehicles from consumers and provide funding that could benefit makers of cleaner technologies.
> 
> ...


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

spockcat said:


> *VW seeks settlement with Canadian diesel owners, paper says*


This is what VW of Canada's party line has been since the second day after the US settlement was announced. The first day, their PR people kept trying to tell owners via social media that once a fix was approved it would be available to us Canadians. 

Once the actual paperwork from the US court was released, where it categorically lampooned the idea of a fix.... they changed thier boilerplate answer to 'working with courts.... no comment... hope to update by July 29th' 

What is more interesting though, on the Canadian version of the emissions website (vwemissions.ca) they updated it talking about the US settlement, even linking over to the US VW settlement website to 'learn more about it'. This, combined with the fact that very high up VW officials in Canada stated that Canada would get the same deal as the US, leads me to believe they are simply 'Canadifying' the US numbers and what not to give to Canadians. Also, the 2B number jives pretty well with the US settlement - 10B for ~500,000 cars in the US, 2B for ~100,000 cars in Canada. 

Anything less would launch 100,000 more lawsuits against them in Canada....


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

spockcat said:


> For the 2-liter cars, the first fix for so-called third-generation vehicles will come first, to be proposed by VW as soon as July 29 and approved by October 14. For second generation vehicles, VW’s deadline for a proposal is December 16, with a target date for approval of March 3. For the hardest-to-fix first generation vehicles, VW’s proposal is due Nov. 11, with the final approval expected by Jan. 27.


This is a nice bit of news. The proposal must contain the effect on performance and fuel economy. The warranty is already known.

For many of us that chose TDI, the alternative cars aren't that attractive. It's hard to make the buyback/fix decision without all the facts about the fix. Still missing from this release is when VW will start selling new and CPO TDI cars again.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Blonde Guy said:


> This is a nice bit of news. The proposal must contain the effect on performance and fuel economy. The warranty is already known.
> 
> For many of us that chose TDI, the alternative cars aren't that attractive. It's hard to make the buyback/fix decision without all the facts about the fix. Still missing from this release is when VW will start selling new and CPO TDI cars again.


Given that the fix for 3rd generation cars won't come until July 29 and the earliest approval (IF APPROVED) wouldn't be until October 14, then I would surmise the soonest VW could sell new TDI models would be middle to end of October. And that would only be 3rd generation models (2015, 2016, 2017)?


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

spockcat said:


> Given that the fix for 3rd generation cars won't come until July 29 and the earliest approval (IF APPROVED) wouldn't be until October 14, then I would surmise the soonest VW could sell new TDI models would be middle to end of October. And that would only be 3rd generation models (2015, 2016, 2017)?


And from what I read in an earlier article its a 2 part fix for 3rd gen cars - a hardware solution would be rolled out as the second part of the fix in 2017 - so unless I am reading it wrong, it won't be as easy to re-flash the ECU in October and boom all the 3rd Gens are for sale.

This is seriously looking to be a huge headache - the biggest factor is the "IF" approval is met- especially for the 1st gen cars that are the most plentiful of all.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Ricky Bobby said:


> And from what I read in an earlier article its a 2 part fix for 3rd gen cars - a hardware solution would be rolled out as the second part of the fix in 2017 - so unless I am reading it wrong, it won't be as easy to re-flash the ECU in October and boom all the 3rd Gens are for sale.
> 
> This is seriously looking to be a huge headache - the biggest factor is the "IF" approval is met- especially for the 1st gen cars that are the most plentiful of all.


If the 3rd generation cars require a hardware fix then it will take much longer than just a computer fix. 100,000 parts don't get engineered, produced and distributed to 600+ dealers overnight. 

I also doubt that the 1st and 2nd generation vehicles will ever be fixed well enough to meet EPA specs and still be drive-able or have the longevity they previously had. Unless the government allows for a worse standard to be met, these cars will mostly be taken off the road.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> *VW's dirty diesels won't meet U.S. air standards even after recall*


Did you even read that or just copy and paste?

Everything in that article is the opinion of some clean air advocate who seems to be twisting the facts to fit his agenda. 




> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen Group's $15.3 billion U.S. settlement for cheating on emissions tests fell short in one key respect: even after the cars are recalled and repaired they won’t be fully compliant with clean-air laws.


Is there even any evidence backing up the very first sentence in the entire article?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> Did you even read that or just copy and paste?
> 
> Everything in that article is the opinion of some clean air advocate who seems to be twisting the facts to fit his agenda.
> 
> ...


You expect me to technically vet articles that are published by Autonews.com? TCL doesn't pay enough for that service.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

spockcat said:


> If the 3rd generation cars require a hardware fix then it will take much longer than just a computer fix. 100,000 parts don't get engineered, produced and distributed to 600+ dealers overnight.
> 
> I also doubt that the 1st and 2nd generation vehicles will ever be fixed well enough to meet EPA specs and still be drive-able or have the longevity they previously had. Unless the government allows for a worse standard to be met, these cars will mostly be taken off the road.


This is my problem - as a first gen owner I still have to be penalized if I want to keep my car - with an unknown first gen fix that will change many aspects of the car. The whole 85% fixed or bought back bothers the $hit out of me - if VW doesn't get a first gen fix approved what is going to happen in 2018, VW is going to bang down my door to force it to be bought back?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> You expect me to technically vet articles that are published by Autonews.com? TCL doesn't pay enough for that service.


The first sentence is really all you need to see to know everything that follows is going to be utter BS.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Ricky Bobby said:


> This is my problem - as a first gen owner I still have to be penalized if I want to keep my car - with an unknown first gen fix that will change many aspects of the car. The whole 85% fixed or bought back bothers the $hit out of me - if VW doesn't get a first gen fix approved what is going to happen in 2018, VW is going to bang down my door to force it to be bought back?


If VW doesn't meet the 85% by a certain date there is a penalty to them. You can bet that as that date gets closer and closer, if they haven't met the 85%, they will sweeten the deal for owners on buybacks (or repairs if available). So if you like your 1st generation and live in a state that doesn't care about pollution enough to block further registration, then keep driving. Then as the deadline approaches, keep your ears open for a better offer from VW. VW cannot force you to sell your vehicle back to them. VW can't force you to undergo a repair. The worst that can happen is that your state can refuse registration. Being in NJ, that might be possible though.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Ricky Bobby said:


> This is my problem - as a first gen owner I still have to be penalized if I want to keep my car - with an unknown first gen fix that will change many aspects of the car. The whole 85% fixed or bought back bothers the $hit out of me - if VW doesn't get a first gen fix approved what is going to happen in 2018, VW is going to bang down my door to force it to be bought back?


No the EPA/CARB fine VW for every car under the 85%, nothing changes for you unless your state decides to not allow you to renew, I don't see that happening in the majority of states, I barely believe it would happen in CARB states. 

My state could probably figure out by Vin that mine is a diesel not gas if they really wanted to, but their system/basic title records do not track that info. It is actually something I'm really pissed off about since I went through the trouble of converting my Jeeps title to diesel then moved here and it was removed :banghead:.


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

AJB said:


> OK, so what does one do if the DPF is now at the end of its useful life with the dash light illuminated?
> 
> 1. Park car and wait until oct and drive the car into the dealer in limp mode?
> 2. Take car to get fixed for ~3k?
> ...


Shouldn't DPF still be warrated


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

spockcat said:


> If VW doesn't meet the 85% by a certain date there is a penalty to them. You can bet that as that date gets closer and closer, if they haven't met the 85%, they will sweeten the deal for owners on buybacks (or repairs if available). So if you like your 1st generation and live in a state that doesn't care about pollution enough to block further registration, then keep driving. Then as the deadline approaches, keep your ears open for a better offer from VW. VW cannot force you to sell your vehicle back to them. VW can't force you to undergo a repair. The worst that can happen is that your state can refuse registration. Being in NJ, that might be possible though.


I was thinking this as well - as a heads up I am out of NJ by end of next year, not worried about the CARB thing/registration block as I'm going to one of the 40+ more liberty-oriented states - if VW really doesn't want to get fined if they cant get an approved fix by 2018 I guess they would have to sweeten the pot for me in order to let them buy it back - 



cpermd said:


> Shouldn't DPF still be warrated


To AJB - I would call up VW customer care - if you are under 120k it should be under warranty shouldn't it? Regardless I would expect them to cover it with the hassle of Dieselgate and all


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Looks like Winterkorn + some other execs might be serving prison sentences for fraud.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Ricky Bobby said:


> To AJB - I would call up VW customer care - if you are under 120k it should be under warranty shouldn't it? Regardless I would expect them to cover it with the hassle of Dieselgate and all



8 years 80k mile warranty on the DPF as of today. Will be extended with the settlement.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

GoHomePossum said:


> Looks like Winterkorn + some other execs might be serving prison sentences for fraud.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

cpermd said:


> Shouldn't DPF still be warrated


How would it be warrantied? Isn't it only until 80k?


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> So what you are saying is that most people are not relying on the money from their current vehicle to acquire the second vehicle they are actually already acquiring a second vehicle a head of time, so why is this scenario suddenly all that different? Since when does a least turn in not take planning a head of time? Or do you mean that the process actually starts well before, takes longer, is more involved, and results in less money being returned to you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You said the VW program was similar to returning a lease vehicle and it isn't because when you turn in a lease vehicle you aren't waiting on money to get another vehicle. If you have a leased car and want to go buy another there isn't much of a reason to not buy the car before turning in the leased car.

If you need the VW money to buy a car somewhere else there will be some amount of time you won't have the money or a car. From your timeline it looks like best case is 3 days if everything goes perfectly and you do an ACH. Following?

With hundreds of thousands of cars being turned in and billions of dollars in payments going out I don't expect it to go smoothly. If I was VW and there were billions of dollars going out to people buying some other brand of car I would worry more about making sure things were done right than quickly (aka, it may take a little more time) than the immediate payment the minute the car is dropped off. I would expect that if you don't hold the title to the car the first one that needs to be paid is the lender. I would also expect that like any other case where massive amounts of money are paid out to consumers there will be some amount of fraud that VW is trying to limit.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> You said the VW program was similar to returning a lease vehicle and it isn't because when you turn in a lease vehicle you aren't waiting on money to get another vehicle.


I said it was similar because there are instances where you must go to two locations one to drop off the car and the second to get your new car, since that was being stated as an "issue". It would also be similar because you wouldn't be getting money from the lease turn in beyond maybe a security deposit, so you would be going into BOTH situations with nothing but whatever you already had. In this case you will get a check a few days later, so you are right, it isn't like a lease in that sense this situation is vastly superior.





> If you have a leased car and want to go buy another there isn't much of a reason to not buy the car before turning in the leased car.


And what is the reason you cannot do exactly that in this scenario???


Again more reason why this is very similar to someone on a position of having to turn in a leased car and go get another.





> From your timeline it looks like best case is 3 days if everything goes perfectly and you do an ACH. Following?


My time line was actually wrong, others and myself have clarified it several times already in the past 24 hours. 

3 days is WORST case, BEST case is actually the second you hand them your keys.. Following?




> If I was VW and there were billions of dollars going out to people buying some other brand of car I would worry more about making sure things were done right than quickly (aka, it may take a little more time) than the immediate payment the minute the car is dropped off.


Trading your car to VW and buying a new car are 100% separate transactions. No one in the process of selling your car has to know if you plan to buy a vw, a honda or a bunch of hookers. The FASTER vw gets cars in the FASTER vw gets their money back, you keep ignoring that part, it is to their benefit to make this happen as quickly as possible. VW doesn't get even the least bit of say in how quickly they pay you let alone why they would hold a payment. This isn't in anyway open for your opinion as this is all required by the court.




> I would expect that if you don't hold the title to the car the first one that needs to be paid is the lender.


There is nothing to expect, it is exactly as if you sold ANY car you had a lien on and is also very well described in the settlement documents. Heck if you have a lien you could get up to an extra 30% to cover you being under water and they will cover fees related to ending the loan. 




> I would also expect that like any other case where massive amounts of money are paid out to consumers there will be some amount of fraud that VW is trying to limit.


So what you are saying is that shady TDI owners are the reason for delays needing to be written into the settlement, not VW? But even then that seems that the delay is in the approval of your settlement offer, all of that background like checking what date you owned the car, was it totaled previously that sort of thing is in the period before you turn the car in, not the possibly 3 days to get you the funds. 




Pretty much everything you keep describing as problems and why this is so different is actually why this is exactly the same as what happens everyday, including in many cases having to wait a few days for a check to be cut.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

No one saw this coming:
*
VW done with diesel push in U.S., exec says*



> CHATTANOOGA -- Volkswagen will take a step back from the diesel powertrains that defined its U.S. vehicle lineup for the better part of a decade amid a repositioning of the brand in the aftermath of the automaker's emissions scandal, VW's top U.S. official says.
> 
> Hinrich Woebcken, CEO of Volkswagen Group of America, told Automotive News this week that VW won’t relaunch “clean diesels” as a core element of its brand identity in the U.S., where VW dominated diesel passenger car sales before being consumed by its emissions cheating scandal.
> 
> ...


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Thought this was a pretty good read, both regarding the scandal and the culture that led to it.

Revealed: How VW Designed the Greatest Scandal in Automotive History


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Thought this was a pretty good read, both regarding the scandal and the culture that led to it.
> 
> Revealed: How VW Designed the Greatest Scandal in Automotive History


Also some interesting details in this article. Not sure if they are already presented in yours.

*VW execs covered up diesel cheating, state lawsuits allege*



> WASHINGTON -- Senior executives at Volkswagen AG, including its former CEO, covered up evidence that the German automaker had cheated on U.S. diesel emissions tests for years, three U.S. states charged on Tuesday in civil lawsuits against the company.
> 
> New York, Massachusetts and Maryland filed separate, nearly identical lawsuits in state courts, accusing the world's No. 2 automaker of violating environmental laws. The lawsuits, which could lead to state fines of hundreds of millions of dollars or more, complicate VW's efforts to move past the scandal that has hurt its business and reputation, and already cost it billions of dollars.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW Group emissions-rigging claims reach back further
Audi developed defeat device, Winterkorn and Mueller knew about cheat, lawsuits allege*



> (Bloomberg) -- Volkswagen Group's diesel cheating went on for far longer than the company has acknowledged, state officials in the U.S. allege as they sought to add billions of dollars to the automaker's tab for the scandal.
> 
> After the first known instance of the company rigging diesel engines with software to cheat emissions tests in 1999, VW spent much of the next decade perfecting its so-called defeat devices for use in Europe and then the U.S., the attorneys general for New York, Maryland and Massachusetts said.
> 
> ...


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

This is so amazing.

It really doesn't even remotely compare to the garden-variety cheating we have seen in the past. :facepalm:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

atomicalex said:


> This is so amazing.
> 
> It really doesn't even remotely compare to the garden-variety cheating we have seen in the past. :facepalm:


German efficiency.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW diesel scandal costs rise to 18B euros as new provision hits earnings*



> Volkswagen Group today made additional provisions for costs associated with its diesel-rigging scandal as the company announced that first-half earnings rose 7 percent to 7.5 billion euros ($8.25 billion).
> 
> VW said it will set aside another 2.2 billion euros ($2.4 billion) related to its emissions scandal. Including the one-off items, earnings dropped 22 percent to 5.3 billion euros, VW said in an unscheduled statement today.
> 
> ...


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

Still waiting on the official VW calculator


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

spockcat said:


> *VW diesel scandal costs rise to 18B euros as new provision hits earnings*


2 Billion is about the amount needed to buyback the Canadian cars


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

This could break VW if EU TDI owners got the same compensation as US/Canadian owners.

*EU steps up pressure on VW for bigger consumer payouts*



> The European Commission is working with consumer groups and regulators in the EU's 28 nations to pressure Volkswagen Group to give payouts to customers caught in its emissions scandal.
> 
> EU officials want the 8.5 million European owners of diesel autos from Volkswagen to get similar compensation to the $10 billion pledged to the 500,000 car owners in the U.S. At the moment, customers in the region are getting lower payouts or may be limited to car repairs only, depending on the legal rules in their individual country.
> 
> ...


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

This whole scandal is like watching a slow-motion Compsognathus attack.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Seems like the AP is reporting that 2.0L fix is getting ready to be submitted:



> One of the dealers said the so-called "Generation 1" diesels — about 325,000 VW Jettas, Golfs, Passats and Beetles from the 2009 to 2014 model years — would get new software and bigger catalytic converters in January or February of next year. About 90,000 "Generation 2" Passats already have sufficient emissions systems and would get only a software update early next year. Another 67,000 "Generation 3" 2015 models would get software in October and would get additional hardware a year later, the dealer said.


Source: http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bu...emissions-cheating-fixes-ready-387945572.html 

However... if this is all it took to fix the cars with 'no difference' to performance... why in the hell did they not implement this sooner? It seems like a ridiculously easy fix. It is only said to reduce the emissions by 80%... so maybe it was the extra 20% that made VW create the cheat device in the first place? 

Overall I'm not buying it... these fixes are way to simple to be real, considering that the documentation from less than a month ago stated that the fix would be prohibitively difficult, costly, and time consuming. What is being reported appears to be a 2 hour modification with one part change, hardly something that VW would balk at doing, in turn spending $10 billion dollars on a buyback.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

E CODE said:


> Seems like the AP is reporting that 2.0L fix is getting ready to be submitted:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Seems fishy as the 2.0 would need more than that, the later have the DEF and no mention of that at all.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> Seems fishy as the 2.0 would need more than that, the later have the DEF and no mention of that at all.


Exactly my thinking... this report is supposedly from a north eastern dealer meeting... No other dealers report hearing anything similar at their meetings across the country... I call :bs:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Its likely a way to reduce high levels of n0x to become closer to EPA standards. Its been well stated that a complete fix is nearly impossible. 

Doesn't the public comment period end next week?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

E CODE said:


> Seems like the AP is reporting that 2.0L fix is getting ready to be submitted:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If VW had a sure fire fix with no compromise on performance, then why would they need to do a buyback? Most people would be more than happy a few thousand in "I'm sorry" money and a fix of their car.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

E CODE said:


> Seems like the AP is reporting that 2.0L fix is getting ready to be submitted:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It can take _months_ to get new catalytic hardware. It's possible they needed actual hardware so they could prove out the fix before submitting it to the EPA?

I'm a bit skeptical though, because as of a few weeks ago, it was being reported that VW still didn't have a technical fix.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

BUJonathan said:


> It can take _months_ to get new catalytic hardware. It's possible they needed actual hardware so they could prove out the fix before submitting it to the EPA?
> 
> I'm a bit skeptical though, because as of a few weeks ago, it was being reported that VW still didn't have a technical fix.


This is true... even if the fix actually works... they have to warranty the living crap out of these cars now... and that's going to cost money. Getting 600,000 new, bigger catalytic converters is going to take a long long time... then putting them on... 

I'm a bit worried that if this is a real fix... that Canadians are going to get shafted on a buy back and they'll just try and fix our cars. In that case I'll be joining a separate class action or mass tort.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

E CODE said:


> This is true... even if the fix actually works... they have to warranty the living crap out of these cars now... and that's going to cost money. Getting 600,000 new, bigger catalytic converters is going to take a long long time... then putting them on...
> 
> I'm a bit worried that if this is a real fix... that Canadians are going to get shafted on a buy back and they'll just try and fix our cars. In that case I'll be joining a separate class action or mass tort.


IMO, the EPA and CARB seem to be heavily scrutinizing VW's repair plans, not only for emissions compliance, but also longevity and any impact to advertised fuel economy and performance. So I think it will need to have no measurable impact to those variables before the EPA and CARB will approve.

If a "fix" is truly transparent to the owners (same fuel economy, same durability, and brings the car into compliance) I don't see why VW would _need _to continue forward with the buybacks, but I haven't been following the technicalities of the court case.


----------



## pjsunc (Jul 22, 2016)

*Buyback Amount*

I have a 2010 Jetta TDi that was recently damaged (July 4,2016). Wondering if this will affect the buyback amount since it is supposed to be the September 2015 trade in value?

Also, I've seen several other people on here post about their cars amount. I used the buyback calculator I found on google and it comes out with a figure around $14,500? Is this approximately right?

It's a 2010 Jetta TDi with 80,000 miles and sunroof with premium wheels, manual transmission. Just curious!


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

pjsunc said:


> I have a 2010 Jetta TDi that was recently damaged (July 4,2016). Wondering if this will affect the buyback amount since it is supposed to be the September 2015 trade in value?
> 
> Also, I've seen several other people on here post about their cars amount. I used the buyback calculator I found on google and it comes out with a figure around $14,500? Is this approximately right?
> 
> It's a 2010 Jetta TDi with 80,000 miles and sunroof with premium wheels, manual transmission. Just curious!


Damage won't impact he value as long as its driveable.


----------



## pjsunc (Jul 22, 2016)

Thanks for the response! Hoping to get that ~15k out of the vehicle and use my $1000 debit and service cards toward a new '16 GTI DSG SE!!


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

spockcat said:


> If VW had a sure fire fix with no compromise on performance, then why would they need to do a buyback? Most people would be more than happy a few thousand in "I'm sorry" money and a fix of their car.


Not if they live in the smug regions of Seattle, Portland, San Fran, Austin TX, etc - those people are wronged and they are actively planting new trees to offset the emissions from the prior years

Its been reported that even if a fix is approved (IF), it would not 100% meet the EPA certification - it would be around 80-90% reduction in real world driving - If they can fit a larger catalyst (what about a larger DPF??) and a software tweak and I wouldn't notice loss in performance or fuel economy, I'd be happy with it - question is, will the EPA? 

I'm assuming VW would literally just replace everyone's entire exhaust emissions system, including DPF and cats, if the fix is approved - since I think its a one piece system anyway, but I haven't been under there to check it out - I would think that in order to avoid seeing the customers back very soon, someone who has 80k miles on a 3-4 year old TDI would get a new DPF/catalyst assembly which is then warrantied for 10y/120k, so you would be "starting fresh" with the emissions system so to speak.

I think the Gen 3's with urea need a larger urea tank however since the dosing rate I'm sure will go up and I don't think they want their customers complaining of refilling it all the time.


----------



## ktm8806 (Feb 14, 2005)

So what happens next after tomorrow's preliminary approval court hearing? Assuming no major issues and it's approved...


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

.



ktm8806 said:


> So what happens next after tomorrow's preliminary approval court hearing? Assuming no major issues and it's approved...





veedubBiker said:


> This is the timeline I was referring to.  Final Approval Hearing scheduled to begin on 10/3, pending results of objections and actual Preliminary Approval granted on 7/26.


----------



## maac311 (Apr 23, 2003)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Its been reported that even if a fix is approved (IF), it would not 100% meet the EPA certification - it would be around 80-90% reduction in real world driving - If they can fit a larger catalyst (what about a larger DPF??) and a software tweak and I wouldn't notice loss in performance or fuel economy, I'd be happy with it - question is, *will the EPA?*


According to this article, yes.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/vo...g-agreement-over-us-recall-2016-07-25-9103039

Although not the EPA, rep from CARB says it would suffice because that's what the settlement money is for, to compensate for that other 10%.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Dropped by the Audi dealer this weekend to test drive an A3 E-Tron as we begin the (long) hunt for the TDI replacement.

Audi sales guy had gotten out of an all staff meeting earlier that day where they were told the buyback assessments would begin in Mid-October and likely run into 2018.


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

Numbersix said:


> Dropped by the Audi dealer this weekend to test drive an A3 E-Tron as we begin the (long) hunt for the TDI replacement.
> 
> Audi sales guy had gotten out of an all staff meeting earlier that day where they were told the buyback assessments would begin in Mid-October and likely run into 2018.


Well...how was the test drive???


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

AJB said:


> OK, so what does one do if the DPF is now at the end of its useful life with the dash light illuminated?
> 
> 1. Park car and wait until oct and drive the car into the dealer in limp mode?
> 2. Take car to get fixed for ~3k?
> ...


5. Park TDI, buy a different one, wait until oct and drive the TDI into the dealer in limp mode, get huge check, accept that having to finance a car for three months is just one of the many weird costs that sometimes apply to car owners, get on with life.

At least that's what I would do.


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Not if they live in the smug regions of Seattle, Portland, San Fran, Austin TX, etc - those people are wronged and they are actively planting new trees to offset the emissions from the prior years
> 
> I think the Gen 3's with urea need a larger urea tank however since the dosing rate I'm sure will go up and I don't think they want their customers complaining of refilling it all the time.



Smug huh? smh.

My Gen 3 with urea gets filled every 10K miles. If dosage rate increases, it wouldn't be something to complain about.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Debating on a Chevy Cruze Diesel to replace my JSW. I really want a hatchback, but I like the mpg's that car puts out on highway trips.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

If VW offers a decent incentive to stay in the VW brand, I will likely buy a GTI. Otherwise, it will be a yet to be unveiled Civic Si or R unless those are complete flops, which I am not expecting. 

FWIW, I scheduled an oil change and fuel filter change and will pay via loyalty card. I figured it was the least I could do to keep the car running and hoping to keep FE up to par.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

.yuk. said:


> Debating on a Chevy Cruze Diesel to replace my JSW. I really want a hatchback, but I like the mpg's that car puts out on highway trips.


not 100% on this, but i think the replacement for the wife's JSW TDI will be the Mazda6 i bought from Schnell last month.

not sure because I havent decided if i want to give up my Saab daily yet or not. :laugh:


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

.yuk. said:


> Debating on a Chevy Cruze Diesel to replace my JSW. I really want a hatchback, but I like the mpg's that car puts out on highway trips.


Just wait for the Mazda 3 diesel 

*troll face* :laugh:


----------



## YikeGrymon (Sep 12, 2005)

An interesting perspective here:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/news/a30118/vw-emissions-settlement/


----------



## Eye Candy White (Nov 9, 2006)

Is anyone adding extra or special gap coverage to their TDI?

I put a call out to my agent last week, and need to return her call to talk gap. I have standard gap insurance on my policy, but this has the feels of a "special case," and wanting to make sure that I'm not taking a bath on this car if it's totaled between now and whenever this is all settled...Most gap policies are only good for the first 24-36 months of a car's life from what I understand, but there seems to be potential that this will drag out further than that for me (car is currently 16 months old). We owe more than the car currently KBB's, and I'm guessing similar for whatever insurance would give us in a write-off.

I will not be parking this car and driving something else, especially if I can feel similarly safe by adding ~$50-100 in insurance for the next two years to my policy.

Insurance Lounge? Any agents on here?

I have a 2015 GSW SEL for what it's worth.


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

Any word on today's proceedings?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

VeeDubMan54 said:


> Any word on today's proceedings?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Its only 10am out there, so they're probably just getting warmed up.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

veedubBiker said:


> Its only 10am out there, so they're probably just getting warmed up.


Preliminary Approval is done - even the Canadian websites are reporting


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-26/vw-14-7-billion-diesel-cheating-settlement-gets-go-ahead



> *Cheating Settlement Gets Go-Ahead*
> 
> July 26, 2016 — 12:55 PM EDT Updated on July 26, 2016 — 1:11 PM EDT
> 
> ...


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

.yuk. said:


> Debating on a Chevy Cruze Diesel to replace my JSW. I really want a hatchback, but I like the mpg's that car puts out on highway trips.


I would be cautious on the Cruze Diesel... I thought about replacing my Mazda3 with one, but reliability appears to be questionable. Most of the posts on CruzeTalk.com were about problems.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

I'm sure I missed it in the 364 pages already posted but if the buyback amount is set from the Sept. 2015 time frame, seems to me that one of the best choices is to drive it until the last possible date to get the buyback from VW. Basically the only time in your life you get to drive a car that is no longer depreciating and if it happens to suffer a major issue or accident you only have to get it driving well enough to get it to the dealer to get your check.

Any reason the above is wrong?

Seems like most are trying to figure out how to get out of their car as quickly as possible when there really isn't much wrong with the majority of them.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

Can i join the "no doors on non wrangler vehicles club", and drive in basically a shell with engine and trans? Part the body panels and lights out?


----------



## Atl-Atl (Jun 7, 2006)

dmorrow said:


> I'm sure I missed it in the 364 pages already posted but if the buyback amount is set from the Sept. 2015 time frame, seems to me that one of the best choices is to drive it until the last possible date to get the buyback from VW. Basically the only time in your life you get to drive a car that is no longer depreciating and if it happens to suffer a major issue or accident you only have to get it driving well enough to get it to the dealer to get your check.
> 
> Any reason the above is wrong?
> 
> Seems like most are trying to figure out how to get out of their car as quickly as possible when there really isn't much wrong with the majority of them.



I think one potential issue is whether or not your state/local jurisdiction will continue to let you register the car.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

dmorrow said:


> I'm sure I missed it in the 364 pages already posted but if the buyback amount is set from the Sept. 2015 time frame, seems to me that one of the best choices is to drive it until the last possible date to get the buyback from VW. Basically the only time in your life you get to drive a car that is no longer depreciating and if it happens to suffer a major issue or accident you only have to get it driving well enough to get it to the dealer to get your check.
> 
> Any reason the above is wrong?
> 
> Seems like most are trying to figure out how to get out of their car as quickly as possible when there really isn't much wrong with the majority of them.



I thought about this, but with the car currently at 160k miles, I feel like I'm going to end up eating away a lot of the payback benefit with repair costs (already needs a complete A/C overhaul). Might make sense for folks with much lower-mileage cars though.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

dmorrow said:


> I'm sure I missed it in the 364 pages already posted but if the buyback amount is set from the Sept. 2015 time frame, seems to me that one of the best choices is to drive it until the last possible date to get the buyback from VW. Basically the only time in your life you get to drive a car that is no longer depreciating and if it happens to suffer a major issue or accident you only have to get it driving well enough to get it to the dealer to get your check.
> 
> Any reason the above is wrong?
> 
> Seems like most are trying to figure out how to get out of their car as quickly as possible when there really isn't much wrong with the majority of them.


Depends entirely if you are 

a) going to drive it less than the amount they earmark for you
b) able to keep the car going without spending a lot on repairs
c) are still making payments - and would rather pay interest to a bank or VW instead of yourself, with that same money (although you are probably financing something else once the TDI goes back)
d) have some kind of insurance against it being written off 
e) can wait for the hush money

So there's definitely a lot of people who may want out as soon as possible - for example: if you can (and want) to purchase something 'new to you' with the hush money, and would rather your $3-400 monthly payment goes towards your house, savings, retirement etc...


----------



## turbokirby (Sep 5, 2014)

In my particular case I have another already paid for car just waiting for me to start driving... so this eliminates a car payment immediately (almost $500 a month) as mine is a 2014 and puts a substantial amount of cash in my pocket, that's why I want this done asap. Plus my understanding is you are loosing buy back/reimbursement value based on the miles the car has at the time of return.



dmorrow said:


> I'm sure I missed it in the 364 pages already posted but if the buyback amount is set from the Sept. 2015 time frame, seems to me that one of the best choices is to drive it until the last possible date to get the buyback from VW. Basically the only time in your life you get to drive a car that is no longer depreciating and if it happens to suffer a major issue or accident you only have to get it driving well enough to get it to the dealer to get your check.
> 
> Any reason the above is wrong?
> 
> Seems like most are trying to figure out how to get out of their car as quickly as possible when there really isn't much wrong with the majority of them.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

dmorrow said:


> seems to me that one of the best choices is to drive it until the last possible date to get the buyback from VW. Basically the only time in your life you get to drive a car that is no longer depreciating and if it happens to suffer a major issue or accident you only have to get it driving well enough to get it to the dealer to get your check.


That's my strategy for my '15 Golf SE.

May drive it across country and turn it in at a distant dealer, just for fun.


----------



## Eye Candy White (Nov 9, 2006)

Spoke with my insurance agent today - my standard gap coverage would only cover 5% of the vehicle value, which we both assumed would be tied to today's NADA or trade-in value on KBB, versus something anchored to September 2015 when TDI's were more valuable on the whole.

With only 5%, as things sit today, I'd have been ~$4K short on my loan if the car were written off in a total loss.

I've added extra gap policy which will cover 25% of the value of the car in the event of a total loss for an extra $48 annually. Worth the peace of mind, to me, to carry for the next 12-18 months until things are sorted about what we'll do with the car.

Otherwise, I think we're very much in the camp of "drive this car as long as we can." I registered the car/plates for 5 years when new 16 months ago, my county in Ohio doesn't have emissions testing, so we should be in a good position to drive the car for the long-haul, even in the face of a fix for the 3rd generation 2.0.

Interested to see the official calculator when it's released. I'm not excited about the idea of getting back into another 5-year car loan now, which essentially resets the clock on our current loan back to 5-years. I was supposed to be getting a MKVIII R when this GSW is paid off, and don't want to put that off any longer because of this...


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

Still only going to give NADA trade in value?

:banghead:


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

Well, you have until 9/16 to file an objection, or opt out and start your own lawsuit opcorn:


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Well, their website is FUBAR and nothing has been posted on the court's website. Guess I'll wait some more


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

E CODE said:


> Depends entirely if you are
> 
> a) going to drive it less than the amount they earmark for you
> b) able to keep the car going without spending a lot on repairs
> ...


Makes sense, thanks. 

I think the mileage hits would depend on how much the hit is - if normal car is losing "X" value per year and your TDI is losing the mileage value per year figure out which is worse.
I would expect a large part of the cars really unlikely to need to a major repair (relatively new) and many are under at least powertrain warranty.
As you said payments may get moved from the TDI to some other car and it depends on your plans.
Insurance is a strange one and not sure you can get insurance on a non collectible car for more than market value. Then I guess it depends on how much you want to risk totaling your car and losing money. I have never totaled a car and think my chances would be really small. I guess you could attempt to collect the loss from the other party if they caused the accident (pretty easy to show the extra money you just lost but not sure if you could win).

Also for the "can't register it" possibility, with 500,000 cars for VW to deal with one way or the other I can't see any of the states enforcing anything quickly.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

*A Lot of Questions Answered in This Document*

This was filed with the Court yesterday. 

http://cand.uscourts.gov/filelibrary/2799/Supplemental_Class_Notice.pdf


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Well, their website is FUBAR and nothing has been posted on the court's website. Guess I'll wait some more



http://www.dw.com/en/vw-settlement-gets-ok-from-us-court/a-19428639

Seems to be on track with the approval today. Final approval looks to be pushed back to Oct 18th


----------



## Picklerfan (Jul 25, 2016)

I called the 800-number and asked I currently have a loan, not with VW, but wanted to see if I can re-finance it through my credit union and she didn't seem to know if I could do that. Anyone here know if it's possible for me to do that? I have a 2010 almost at 100k I'd like to keep it, hoping there would be a fix for it.


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

Registration is up and running.

https://claims.vwgoa.com/#/login


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

Picklerfan said:


> I called the 800-number and asked I currently have a loan, not with VW, but wanted to see if I can re-finance it through my credit union and she didn't seem to know if I could do that. Anyone here know if it's possible for me to do that? I have a 2010 almost at 100k I'd like to keep it, hoping there would be a fix for it.


You can refinance it, if they will refinance it(your financial institution)

I thought an option was to keep it, but I haven't read the court docs for a while.


----------



## tsimitpo (Jul 22, 2014)

dmorrow said:


> I'm sure I missed it in the 364 pages already posted but if the buyback amount is set from the Sept. 2015 time frame, seems to me that one of the best choices is to drive it until the last possible date to get the buyback from VW. Basically the only time in your life you get to drive a car that is no longer depreciating and if it happens to suffer a major issue or accident you only have to get it driving well enough to get it to the dealer to get your check.
> 
> Any reason the above is wrong?
> 
> Seems like most are trying to figure out how to get out of their car as quickly as possible when there really isn't much wrong with the majority of them.


Another angle to consider is that a "fix" would provide a nice cash supplement to what otherwise is a trade-in value that *reduces* the sales tax on the purchase of another car. A cash buyback doesn't provide any trade-in tax reduction benefit at all. In my case, a fix is potentially worth another $2000 *more* (due to the sales tax benefit) than a buyback would be, but the longer it takes for a "fix", the less that advantage becomes. 

Unfortunately, I'm convinced any kind of approved "fix" is a long shot so I'm not staking much on it. I can afford to hold onto the car for about 6-12 months for something to be worked out - otherwise I'm jumping on the buyback. I've already purchased a replacement because the TDI hasn't proved to be that great for my daily commute (only 8 miles each way) and I feel a bit selfish about pumping so much NOX out into out environment (https://youtu.be/-VZFP3lW4gU - some language possibly offensive) with my JSW.


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

Saggio44 said:


> Registration is up and running.
> 
> https://claims.vwgoa.com/#/login


Filled mine all out.  

On a funny note. I got my first check engine light ever with this TDI









Car might be upset about #dieselgate 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Just filled mine out. Left it paused before submitting. Why would we get a tax credit on a fix but not a tax credit on a buyback? I figured I would get the credit upon return of the car since I paid PA sales tax on it when purchased. I got a tax credit when I traded my Audi in, so why would you get a tax credit on keeping the car? 

This confuses me a little.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

.yuk. said:


> Just filled mine out. Left it paused before submitting. *Why would we get a tax credit on a fix but not a tax credit on a buyback? *I figured I would get the credit upon return of the car since I paid PA sales tax on it when purchased. I got a tax credit when I traded my Audi in, so why would you get a tax credit on keeping the car?
> 
> This confuses me a little.


The credit would offset the value of the trade towards the purchase of a new vehicle at a dealer vs outright payment into your account/pocket without trade or deal with private party...


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

.yuk. said:


> Just filled mine out. Left it paused before submitting. Why would we get a tax credit on a fix but not a tax credit on a buyback? I figured I would get the credit upon return of the car since I paid PA sales tax on it when purchased. I got a tax credit when I traded my Audi in, so why would you get a tax credit on keeping the car?
> 
> This confuses me a little.


i think that the guys logic is that if you stick it out for the fix money, you would be trading in the car, eventually, after the fix was applied. that trade in would be the event to get the 'tax credit'... which it really isnt its just an offset of the trade-in value against the purchase price, and you only pay tax on that difference. not sure this applies in ALL states, but it does in WA.

example. buy $10k car. trade in $5k car. only pay sales tax on $5k instead of the whole 10.

whereas with a buy back you are not trading your car in at all. you are just 'selling' the car back to the dealer/manufacturer.

in WA the tax rates are somewhere around 8.5-9.6%, so on a $20k trade in the 'tax credit' could be up to $2k.

i think this all assumes that the dealer would give you the same amount on a trade in WAY down the line once the vehicle is fixed, that they are willing to give on the buyback now. i dont think this will be the case.
once the car is fixed and OUT of the case action/etc... the dealers are going to be able to offer you whatever the market deems on trade.

IMO sticking with the car, taking the 'fix' money, and hoping for a $2k tax advantage somewhere around 2-3 yrs from now, MAYBE, sounds like a gamble.


----------



## SoLo2pointO (Jul 12, 2001)

Saggio44 said:


> Registration is up and running.
> 
> https://claims.vwgoa.com/#/login


What exactly is this registration for?


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

SoLo2pointO said:


> What exactly is this registration for?


that you're going to participate in the settlement.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Saggio44 said:


> Registration is up and running.
> 
> https://claims.vwgoa.com/#/shady


That site is sketchy (I've intentionally changed the link from the initial quote)

whois shows some registrar company but Vws address and that site doesn't seem to be linked from any of the official sites.


It may be fine but I"d limit what I put in there until it is confirmed.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

chris86vw said:


> That site is sketchy (I've intentionally changed the link from the initial quote)
> 
> whois shows some registrar company but Vws address and that site doesn't seem to be linked from any of the official sites.
> 
> ...


It's linked from the VWcourtsettlement.com site - after you check your eligibility.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> That site is sketchy (I've intentionally changed the link from the initial quote)
> 
> whois shows some registrar company but Vws address and that site doesn't seem to be linked from any of the official sites.
> 
> ...


Uhhh, it's linked directly from the settlement site:

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/

Click "Eligibility" from the top bar, then scroll down and hit the two radio buttons under "Check My Eligibility". Then you will see this:



> To learn more about the specific benefits that may be available to you, please access the Online Claims Portal. You can also find the information detailed in the Court Documents section of this website, including all exclusions that will apply. Proof of eligibility will be required.


The hyperlink for the Online Claims Portal is in fact: https://claims.vwgoa.com/


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

E CODE said:


> It's linked from the VWcourtsettlement.com site - after you check your eligibility.


Ok cool I hadn't redone the eligibility since that site was first up and expected to find some sort of direct link off the official site. :thumbup: 


I've been to less sketchy porn sites than that vwgoa site is.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> Ok cool I hadn't redone the eligibility since that site was first up and expected to find some sort of direct link off the official site. :thumbup:
> 
> 
> I've been to less sketchy porn sites than that vwgoa site is.


At least the whois seems to coma back to VW: http://www.whois.com/whois/vwgoa.com


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Word, yea I got the part about the tax credit. I got the same thing when I traded mine in. But yea, I guess we will be out of luck with a tax credit on what we paid since we are not exactly trading it in. We are kinda "returning" the product though. Should still count!


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> At least the whois seems to coma back to VW: http://www.whois.com/whois/vwgoa.com


Yeah I saw all the VW stuff but it is not the same as vw.com and not the same as vwcourtsettlement.com which just seemed very strange that suddenly a third site would be into play.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

.yuk. said:


> Word, yea I got the part about the tax credit. I got the same thing when I traded mine in. But yea, I guess we will be out of luck with a tax credit on what we paid since we are not exactly trading it in. We are kinda "returning" the product though. Should still count!


I bet if you are considering another VW product, there will be additional deals to try to keep a %% around and dealers work with you on the tax credit thing (even if it's just taking $$ of the new vehicle purchase)


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> I bet if you are considering another VW product, there will be additional deals to try to keep a %% around and dealers work with you on the tax credit thing (even if it's just taking $$ of the new vehicle purchase)


ok sure.

but if you are not, you are out that $2-3k dollars.
no bueno IMO.

since RIGHT now i am leaning toward buyback and NOT buying another VW (at this point at least), because we have 5 cars. therefore one less would be good.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

how long did you guys have to wait to get the confirmation email after signing up on the website?
5 hours and still nothing..


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

PolishSasquatch said:


> how long did you guys have to wait to get the confirmation email after signing up on the website?
> 5 hours and still nothing..


Seconds...


----------



## Lucian1988 (Mar 25, 2009)

my dad signed up on the website with the 2 cars that he has that qualify for the return, and they already gave him a date and a final amount for each car (asked for loan information etc). Told him he will return them in November and has to have 95K miles on passat (hes currently at 92K miles) and 65K miles on a Jetta (hes at 55K).

anyone else get this?


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

Lucian1988 said:


> my dad signed up on the website with the 2 cars that he has that qualify for the return, and they already gave him a date and a final amount for each car (asked for loan information etc). Told him he will return them in November and has to have 95K miles on passat (hes currently at 92K miles) and 65K miles on a Jetta (hes at 55K).
> 
> anyone else get this?


it let me 'pick' a date, earliest I could do was Nov 1 2016


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Interesting, I got nothing about picking a date yet...


----------



## bubuski (Jun 14, 2001)

They want him to drive only 3k miles between now and Nov 1. SMH


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

bubuski said:


> They want him to drive only 3k miles between now and Nov 1. SMH


Sure if you ignore what is actually happening that is what they said....



OR we can go off what has been known for a while now and that means is if he wants a check THAT DAY then he has to have that many miles or less on the car.

If he wants to drive it more, great he can, however he'll need to wait up to 3 days for a check to be cut or ACH transfer to be started as it would be less than the agreed upon settlement amount.


----------



## Lucian1988 (Mar 25, 2009)

chris86vw said:


> Sure if you ignore what is actually happening that is what they said....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


that is what happened. He knows he drove it a lot but the Jetta not so much, so he chose that day otherwise if he goes over the mileage (based on his estimations of how much he would drive until Nov 1st) he would lose out on $500.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Lucian1988 said:


> my dad signed up on the website with the 2 cars that he has that qualify for the return, and they already gave him a date and a final amount for each car (asked for loan information etc). Told him he will return them in November and has to have 95K miles on passat (hes currently at 92K miles) and 65K miles on a Jetta (hes at 55K).
> 
> anyone else get this?


They (very explicitly) said this is NOT an appointment, just a date to estimate mileage based on averages. I put in November 1st, but so did everyone else, I'm sure. I'm hoping that they do it in order of registration though, since I signed up last night :laugh:


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> They (very explicitly) said this is NOT an appointment, just *a date to estimate mileage based on averages*. I put in November 1st, but so did everyone else, I'm sure. I'm hoping that they do it in order of registration though, since I signed up last night :laugh:


What does the part in bold mean? Basically the date means nothing and they are just gathering information?


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

niice, got 158k miles on our 09 jetta, finally email came through. 
has salvage title but registered that way when we bought it march 2015.
Official buyback amount $11,100 Nov 1 return date (sooner the better!)


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

PolishSasquatch said:


> niice, got 158k miles on our 09 jetta, finally email came through.
> has salvage title but registered that way when we bought it march 2015.
> Official buyback amount $11,100 Nov 1 return date (sooner the better!)


$11k for an 8 year old, 158k mile econobox with a salvage title? You hit the lottery!


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

dmorrow said:


> What does the part in bold mean? Basically the date means nothing and they are just gathering information?


Yes, since none of that website registration is binding, it's like pre-registering for an event.

Then can plan everything from money to have in disbursement accounts, potential inventory for keeping customers in the brand, etc etc


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

spockcat said:


> $11k for an 8 year old, 158k mile econobox with a salvage title? You hit the lottery!


yes zero complaints now.
and the DMF is starting to fail..just 10 miles to the dealer, hope to make it there.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

So the pricing I got from that does not add up to the charts at all. I was hoping to end up with around $10k in my pocket but what this thing shows comes out to around $4500, which I'm still fine with cause I will put that towards an R and it will make me a happy camper.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

SixpackMk3 said:


> So the pricing I got from that does not add up to the charts at all. I was hoping to end up with around $10k in my pocket but what this thing shows comes out to around $4500, which I'm still fine with cause I will put that towards an R and it will make me a happy camper.


Are you sure that you input it correctly? My total came out to be within $1,000 of my hand calculations using the tables. At first I was scratching my head, but it was because I took into account that my loan balance would be $1,000 less in October whereas I input my current loan balance in the online tool that was released yesterday. Taking that into consideration, both numbers match.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Sump said:


> Yes, since none of that website registration is binding, it's like pre-registering for an event.
> 
> Then can plan everything from money to have in disbursement accounts, potential inventory for keeping customers in the brand, etc etc


Makes sense. Part of the population can be talked into a VW but some (maybe most) will require there to be the car they want (or close) when they want it and are ready to turn their TDI in. I am surprised they don't ask you all of the Marketing questions (are you interested in a new/used VW, what do you want, what is your price range, etc).


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

Mazda 3s said:


> Are you sure that you input it correctly? My total came out to be within $1,000 of my hand calculations using the tables. At first I was scratching my head, but it was because I took into account that my loan balance would be $1,000 less in October whereas I input my current loan balance in the online tool that was released yesterday. Taking that into consideration, both numbers match.


I owe about $26k on the car and they payout on buyback was showing around $29k for my car, and then the hush money amount was about $7500. So that would have put around $3k in my pocket from the loan plus the $7500. On this new link, it says vehicle return amount is $22.5k and hush money $7500, and it adds those both u which comes out to $30k, and that leaves me around $4-$4500 in my pocket :-/


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

dmorrow said:


> Makes sense. Part of the population can be talked into a VW but some (maybe most) will require there to be the car they want (or close) when they want it and are ready to turn their TDI in. I am surprised they don't ask you all of the Marketing questions (are you interested in a new/used VW, what do you want, what is your price range, etc).


I bet that's part of the plan. My dealer proactively contacted me a few weeks ago making sure I knew what was up, etc. I think he was fairly relieved getting a call from someone either not blowing him off or being pissed. I make cold(ish) calls for work pretty often so I understand.

Anyway, he said they're having meetings over the next month or so, meeting with their regional rep/etc to put things together for people that want to stay in the brand. I am guessing part of the settlement stuff is they can't gather that info just yet on that website as it's more legally focused. So hopefully if they are smart the dealer you picked on the site will be in touch with you as things move forward to find out where each registrant is at. 

Personally, I hope they do this so that come November we can get the Alltrack in the options/colors we want and they have proper inventory for customers. Subsequently, can give us enough of a deal to cover the tax/fees/small difference between our buyback and the new car. The math on our deal would I think be selling the car for around invoice, which is common anyway.


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

SixpackMk3 said:


> I owe about $26k on the car and they payout on buyback was showing around $29k for my car, and then the hush money amount was about $7500. So that would have put around $3k in my pocket from the loan plus the $7500. On this new link, it says vehicle return amount is $22.5k and hush money $7500, and it adds those both u which comes out to $30k, and that leaves me around $4-$4500 in my pocket :-/


Same camp. Owe 21 payoff is 26 with 5k left. I've made 9.5k in payments which leaves me 4.5k in the hole.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## turbokirby (Sep 5, 2014)

Mine was the same I currently owe 23.5k and table yesterday said I would get about 27.5k for buyback with my options (I knew this number would be lower because of the miles on the car, I have a 14 Jetta Wagon with 52k in miles) this program said I would get 20,100 for the car plus 7006 in hush money, only 3600 in my pocket. I was trying to find the tables again to see if the numbers I saw were wrong (I can't find the link to the tables anywhere). I read on here earlier there is a guy with a salvage title and 160k in miles getting 11k, that does not seem right at all. Does anyone have the table links?



SixpackMk3 said:


> I owe about $26k on the car and they payout on buyback was showing around $29k for my car, and then the hush money amount was about $7500. So that would have put around $3k in my pocket from the loan plus the $7500. On this new link, it says vehicle return amount is $22.5k and hush money $7500, and it adds those both u which comes out to $30k, and that leaves me around $4-$4500 in my pocket :-/


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

makes perfect sense. Doesnt matter the title status, nor does condition of the car-as long as I did not purchase the salvage title vehicle from a Junkyard or re builder AFTER Sept 15. We purchased the salvage title vehicle from a private party March 2015. 
TO me, it seems like you can drive in with missing seats, hood lights etc, as long as it drives in under its own power with the original 2.0 engine. Ours had body damage to the rear left corner. I can't even notice anything wrong, only learned about it after I ran a car fax. 
VW website laid it out as vehicle value $6k, $5100 happy money. Mileage between 158-160k. If we bring it in with over 160k, it drops $100 or so. 

cliffs: ok to own salvage title vehicle-it is eligible for buyback, as long as didnt buy from jy/salvage yard AFTER sept 15- aka cashing in.


----------



## turbokirby (Sep 5, 2014)

Never mind I found it here is the link, and actually mine is supposed to be 28.5k with the options.
https://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/att._1a_-_buyback_modification_table.pdf

Here is the mileage adjustment chart.. these are coming from the FTC.
https://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/att._2b_-_beetle_and_jetta_mileage_table.pdf 

So based off of this I should only lose $2,400 off of the 28.5k not 7k.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

turbokirby said:


> Never mind I found it here is the link, and actually mine is supposed to be 28.5k with the options.
> https://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/att._1a_-_buyback_modification_table.pdf


Lol yea with my options my car payoff should be right at $29k, which would put $3k in my pocket. Then the hush money on top is around $7500... I don't get why all of a sudden the return price went down to $22k. I guess nobody really knows until they start the process. I'm fine either way, as long as I get a few thousand in my pocket to put towards an R. It would just be way sweeter to end up with $10k of course. :thumbup:


----------



## turbokirby (Sep 5, 2014)

This is confusing and a little disheartening, if these numbers on the FTC site are correct, I should be walking away from this car with close to 11k in my pocket, one of the things I didn't realize is that all the miles from September are being subtracted so my mileage adjustment was cut in half and when I submitted the info on the link I put my actual mileage not the adjusted miles.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

spockcat said:


> $11k for an 8 year old, 158k mile econobox with a salvage title? You hit the lottery!


Well in reality, you have to subtract the 5k because he would still get that if he kept the car.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Registered, all looks well. The problem with the hush money option is the "if approved by EPA and CARB" portion, which I am waiting to see.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Registered, all looks well. The problem with the hush money option is the "if approved by EPA and CARB" portion, which I am waiting to see.



Do you mean fix option by hush money? 

If you chose the fix option and they don't have a fix by X date you can switch to the buyback.


All of the payout amounts are pending final approval if that is what you mean.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

My predicted payout was exactly the $23,477 I had calculated.

Where is that guy who was claiming we all needed to tag on an additional $5100???


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

automobiliben said:


> My predicted payout was exactly the $23,477 I had calculated.
> 
> Where is that guy who was claiming we all needed to tag on an additional $5100???


BUT OMG the plain English instructions were SO confusing!!


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

chris86vw said:


> Do you mean fix option by hush money?
> 
> If you chose the fix option and they don't have a fix by X date you can switch to the buyback.
> 
> All of the payout amounts are pending final approval if that is what you mean.



Thats my problem with it though - The owners who want to keep their cars would get screwed if VW does not get a fix approved - (not even getting into not knowing what it would entail especially on first gen TDI's)

If the X date passes, the owners who elect to keep their cars should still get their "hush money" settlement. You shouldn't have to "switch to the buyback", VW says well we ran out of time, the EPA didn't approve our fixes, heres your settlement for sticking with our brand and your vehicle, enjoy your car and sorry for the inconvenience - maybe some of us just want to keep the cars long term and not have a car payment, or pay down our existing loan, etc.

That is my problem with it, people are getting buyback checks getting cut as soon as November, but the owners who just want to keep their cars, don't get a damn thing until the EPA/CARB says so. I have a huge issue with this because it seems the people who just want to go on with their lives keeping their cars are getting seriously f#cked.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Thats my problem with it though - The owners who want to keep their cars would get screwed if VW does not get a fix approved - (not even getting into not knowing what it would entail especially on first gen TDI's)
> 
> If the X date passes, the owners who elect to keep their cars should still get their "hush money" settlement. You shouldn't have to "switch to the buyback", VW says well we ran out of time, the EPA didn't approve our fixes, heres your settlement for sticking with our brand and your vehicle, enjoy your car and sorry for the inconvenience - maybe some of us just want to keep the cars long term and not have a car payment, or pay down our existing loan, etc.
> 
> That is my problem with it, people are getting buyback checks getting cut as soon as November, but the owners who just want to keep their cars, don't get a damn thing until the EPA/CARB says so. I have a huge issue with this because it seems the people who just want to go on with their lives keeping their cars are getting seriously f#cked.



This is being driven by CARB and EPA, you would need to take up your issue with them that you insist on continuing to pollute by keeping your car but still want a pay day. Guess their answer. 

Neither of those organizations was going to fight to get you paid while you don't fix your car.

Stop looking at it as hush money because it isn't, it is thank you for not continuing to pollute money.



If there is no fix and VW actually hits the 85% buy back then you've got a rare bird on your hand that crazy TDI people will want in years to come. There is a good chance your car will be worth more in 2 years than it was on sept 17th if there are less than 70k of them left on the road.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Thats my problem with it though - The owners who want to keep their cars would get screwed if VW does not get a fix approved - (not even getting into not knowing what it would entail especially on first gen TDI's)
> 
> If the X date passes, the owners who elect to keep their cars should still get their "hush money" settlement. You shouldn't have to "switch to the buyback", VW says well we ran out of time, the EPA didn't approve our fixes, heres your settlement for sticking with our brand and your vehicle, enjoy your car and sorry for the inconvenience - maybe some of us just want to keep the cars long term and not have a car payment, or pay down our existing loan, etc.
> 
> That is my problem with it, people are getting buyback checks getting cut as soon as November, but the owners who just want to keep their cars, don't get a damn thing until the EPA/CARB says so. I have a huge issue with this because it seems the people who just want to go on with their lives keeping their cars are getting seriously f#cked.


You decide to keep your car, do nothing and keep driving it. A 1-2 years from now they figure out they can't fix it, you sell it back to VW for what it was worth Sept. 2015, get your buy back and hush payment and move on? Do they require you to make a decision soon on your plans? 

Seems like you keep making money as the depreciation of your vehicle stopped Sept. 15, you lose some on their mileage calculation but it is less than what the depreciation was. Also, you have the ability to get your buyback money at any point if you get tired of the car or it suffers a major issue (where you can still drive it some).

People that get rid of their nearly new cars as soon as possible go from their TDI facing no depreciation to a new car with big depreciation.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

dmorrow said:


> You decide to keep your car, do nothing and keep driving it. A 1-2 years from now they figure out they can't fix it, you sell it back to VW for what it was worth Sept. 2015, get your buy back and hush payment and move on? Do they require you to make a decision soon on your plans?
> 
> Seems like you keep making money as the depreciation of your vehicle stopped Sept. 15, you lose some on their mileage calculation but it is less than what the depreciation was. Also, you have the ability to get your buyback money at any point if you get tired of the car or it suffers a major issue (where you can still drive it some).
> 
> People that get rid of their nearly new cars as soon as possible go from their TDI facing no depreciation to a new car with big depreciation.


I agree with you all 100% - however, random life things happen and all it takes is the vehicle to get totaled in the next 1-2 years, and all that is squandered, am I correct?

If so, I'm with you, but it is a pretty big gamble.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> People that get rid of their nearly new cars as soon as possible go from their TDI facing no depreciation to a new car with big depreciation.


Sort of, the depreciation won't change since it is fixed at that sept 2015 value, but that value isn't necessarily great for all situations so some of us sort of have to wait and rely on that fixed value.

I'll have had my 2015 1 year this saturday, just shy of 19k on it with a road trip coming in 2 weeks. So not only would my buyback value be based on the insane initial hit in that first 45 days between me buying it and this breaking but also take a big mileage hit. With any new car purchase you accept that depreciation but I had no plans on selling it 45 days after I bought it. 

My 2012 is a much better return after 5 years of use and that initial hit being amortized over that time. 


My buyback amount is roughly what I paid for the 2015 45 days before this broke including the we f'd up cash. In order for me to actually get some value out of the purchase and not just essentially walk away from it I need to keep driving it 1-2 years before selling it back. Yes I could turn it in and it would be like having a free car for a year, won't in anyway dispute that. Just there is no value in me turning it in asap.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Ricky Bobby said:


> I agree with you all 100% - however, random life things happen and all it takes is the vehicle to get totaled in the next 1-2 years, and all that is squandered, am I correct?
> 
> If so, I'm with you, but it is a pretty big gamble.


Remove scandal and same still applies other than slight change in value. 

Only now, if you total it once the program starts you should get some sort of compensation unless that changes, so you are sort of still better off.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> My buyback amount is roughly what I paid for the 2015 45 days before this broke including the we f'd up cash. In order for me to actually get some value out of the purchase and not just essentially walk away from it I need to keep driving it 1-2 years before selling it back. Yes I could turn it in and it would be like having a free car for a year, won't in anyway dispute that. Just there is no value in me turning it in asap.


The value is turning it from future value to present value. The same money today is nearly always worth more than in the future. That the car is otherwise worth less money except for the payout being the same is what's changing. So if you didn't need the car today, or want a lower financial risk, you would be better off taking the money today. There are economic costs associated with the risk of holding onto the car just like there are economic risks involved with selling now. All depends on how you value those risks.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

grawk said:


> The value is turning it from future value to present value. The same money today is nearly always worth more than in the future. That the car is otherwise worth less money except for the payout being the same is what's changing. So if you didn't need the car today, or want a lower financial risk, you would be better off taking the money today. There are economic costs associated with the risk of holding onto the car just like there are economic risks involved with selling now. All depends on how you value those risks.


The risk involved in me keeping the 2015 I put close to 0, I'm not under water and being entitled to some I"m sorry cash would put me at about eactly the same if it was totaled vs letting them buy it back. 

The actual financial hit I'd take on depreciation turning it in in Nov and buying another car to take that exact same hit 15 months later is pretty much 100%.


That is how I value the risk.



Whatever would replace my 2015 would get similar ~20k miles in a year, I still do that on my daily despite currently having 4 other vehicles (really 6  ), so 1-2 year depreciation for me is high. 

I can drive another 20k miles and decide to turn the 2015 in this time next year and take maybe a ~2k hit over the current buyback, haven't checked those numbers but is probably high since Id get 12k of those "free". If I went and bought a new car today and put 20k on it and had the same potential accident in that car vs the current one I'd easily stand to lose 10k from depreciation.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

SixpackMk3 said:


> So the pricing I got from that does not add up to the charts at all. I was hoping to end up with around $10k in my pocket but what this thing shows comes out to around $4500, which I'm still fine with cause I will put that towards an R and it will make me a happy camper.





SixpackMk3 said:


> I owe about $26k on the car and they payout on buyback was showing around $29k for my car, and then the hush money amount was about $7500. So that would have put around $3k in my pocket from the loan plus the $7500. On this new link, it says vehicle return amount is $22.5k and hush money $7500, and it adds those both u which comes out to $30k, and that leaves me around $4-$4500 in my pocket :-/


You don't add the hush money to the buyout money. The buyout money includes the hush money. 

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/Settlement Payment Table for Owners.pdf -> You get either the amount in one column or the other - not both. The only things that modify the number is the options and mileage.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

turbokirby said:


> Mine was the same I currently owe 23.5k and table yesterday said I would get about 27.5k for buyback with my options (I knew this number would be lower because of the miles on the car, I have a 14 Jetta Wagon with 52k in miles) this program said I would get 20,100 for the car plus 7006 in hush money, only 3600 in my pocket. I was trying to find the tables again to see if the numbers I saw were wrong (I can't find the link to the tables anywhere). I read on here earlier there is a guy with a salvage title and 160k in miles getting 11k, that does not seem right at all. Does anyone have the table links?


https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/Settlement Payment Table for Owners.pdf

This is for owners. And you still have to adjust for mileage and options - but it's close. You'd use the first 'buyout' column. Ignore the fix column if you aren't fixing the car.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Mazda 3s said:


> Are you sure that you input it correctly? My total came out to be within $1,000 of my hand calculations using the tables. At first I was scratching my head, but it was because I took into account that my loan balance would be $1,000 less in October whereas I input my current loan balance in the online tool that was released yesterday. Taking that into consideration, both numbers match.


^^ this.
the site and my hand calc were within just a couple hundred dollars of each other.

be sure you are selecting a reasonable date, current mileage... and adjusting the estimated monthly mileage correctly. it defaults to over 1k/mo... my wife drives half or less that right now.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

E CODE said:


> You don't add the hush money to the buyout money. The buyout money includes the hush money.


I think, since I looked at it a few times confused, that he is separating out the trade in value and the "hush money" from the single total. Possibly the new form does this or tells you this and you don't need to do the math? I haven't submitted anything yet. I looked up the base on his car before when I Saw that and he gets about 29k overall so his 7500 and 21000 or whatever works out right.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

gcodori said:


> Same camp. Owe 21 payoff is 26 with 5k left. I've made 9.5k in payments which leaves me 4.5k in the hole.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


in the hole how? you got to drive the for 3+ years right?

sounds like you got to lease your passat for somewhere around $100/mo... not a bad deal if you ask me.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Eye Candy White said:


> Is anyone adding extra or special gap coverage to their TDI?
> 
> I put a call out to my agent last week, and need to return her call to talk gap. I have standard gap insurance on my policy, but this has the feels of a "special case," and wanting to make sure that I'm not taking a bath on this car if it's totaled between now and whenever this is all settled...Most gap policies are only good for the first 24-36 months of a car's life from what I understand, but there seems to be potential that this will drag out further than that for me (car is currently 16 months old). We owe more than the car currently KBB's, and I'm guessing similar for whatever insurance would give us in a write-off.
> 
> ...


I have a call out to State Farm about this to see what option they have for the coverage.


----------



## turbokirby (Sep 5, 2014)

So if I understand what you are saying is that based on my 2014 TDI sportwagen with the options I have and mileage adjustment, I can expect to be paid roughly 28k for my car, by the time this happens I will owe say 22.5k, they will payoff the loan and cut me a check for $5,500 and I walk out the door. Or if I choose to keep the car then they will cut me a check for roughly 7k and I keep my loan and car and if a fix happens that is done for free. I don't get both the buyback and the approved emissions fix money just one or the other, and because the buyback exceeds the $5,100 minimum they are clear.

Does this sum it up correctly?




E CODE said:


> https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/Settlement Payment Table for Owners.pdf
> 
> This is for owners. And you still have to adjust for mileage and options - but it's close. You'd use the first 'buyout' column. Ignore the fix column if you aren't fixing the car.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

turbokirby said:


> So if I understand what you are saying is that based on my 2014 TDI sportwagen with the options I have and mileage adjustment, I can expect to be paid roughly 28k for my car, by the time this happens I will owe say 22.5k, they will payoff the loan and cut me a check for $5,500 and I walk out the door. Or if I choose to keep the car then they will cut me a check for roughly 7k and I keep my loan and car and if a fix happens that is done for free. I don't get both the buyback and the approved emissions fix money just one or the other, and because the buyback exceeds the $5,100 minimum they are clear.
> 
> Does this sum it up correctly?


That's my understanding - except, you need to get the actual fix done to get the settlement money, if you choose that option. And despite what two dealers said earlier in the week, no fix is imminent.


----------



## turbokirby (Sep 5, 2014)

Thank you, when I filled out the form this morning they said they were only giving me 20k for the car plus 7k in "settlement money" which was confusing, but it sounds like the settlement money is included in the $28k figure which is why I was confused when it only said 20k.



E CODE said:


> That's my understanding - except, you need to get the actual fix done to get the settlement money, if you choose that option. And despite what two dealers said earlier in the week, no fix is imminent.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> I have a call out to State Farm about this to see what option they have for the coverage.


So I got the call back that State Farm *DOES NOT* offer additional coverage/rider ... so if something happens to the JSW between now and the BB w/VW ....* I'd be OUT about roughly $13K :banghead::banghead:* - and then I'd have to file suit against VW for the additional loss. :facepalm::facepalm: #ThanksVW #DieselGate


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

E CODE said:


> That's my understanding - except, you need to get the actual fix done to get the settlement money, if you choose that option. And despite what two dealers said earlier in the week, no fix is imminent.



^^Ding ding this. I am giving them until New Years for the fix, plus theres nothing we would want to buy anyway right now - According to court docs, the late final deadline for submission of a 1st gen fix for the 2.0 TDI so I'll give them until then to get something submitted - trust me after this long, thats plenty of time for them - 

In my opinion the "keep car and hush money" option is only viable for a settlement if they actually get a fix approved - other than that its choose no compensation and keep car or take the buy back which is pretty much not changing except for mileage between now and 2019


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

turbokirby said:


> So if I understand what you are saying is that based on my 2014 TDI sportwagen with the options I have and mileage adjustment, I can expect to be paid roughly 28k for my car, by the time this happens I will owe say 22.5k, they will payoff the loan and cut me a check for $5,500 and I walk out the door. Or if I choose to keep the car then they will cut me a check for roughly 7k and I keep my loan and car and if a fix happens that is done for free. I don't get both the buyback and the approved emissions fix money just one or the other, and because the buyback exceeds the $5,100 minimum they are clear.
> 
> Does this sum it up correctly?




Sort of, you do not get the fix money until there is a fix available and you have it done. 


Since the buyback exceeds the 5100 what you owe really doesn't matter unless you are under water.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> So I got the call back that State Farm *DOES NOT* offer additional coverage/rider ... so if something happens to the JSW between now and the BB w/VW ....* I'd be OUT about roughly $13K :banghead::banghead:* - and then I'd have to file suit against VW for the additional loss. :facepalm::facepalm: #ThanksVW #DieselGate


Just switch to a different auto insurance carrier. Even if it costs you an extra $100-200 for a 6-month term, you could potentially save yourself $13k. In 6 months when your VW is gone, you switch to whatever insurance company offers you the best rates for your "normal" cars again. VW is not FORCING you to stay with State Farm.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> VW is not FORCING you to stay with State Farm.


Heck they aren't even FORCING him to sell his car back to them for an extra 13k


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> So I got the call back that State Farm *DOES NOT* offer additional coverage/rider ... so if something happens to the JSW between now and the BB w/VW ....* I'd be OUT about roughly $13K :banghead::banghead:* - and then I'd have to file suit against VW for the additional loss. :facepalm::facepalm: #ThanksVW #DieselGate


I would be surprised if any company would insure a non collectible car for far more than the current book value. Seems like fraud waiting to happen. You insure a $10k car for $20k and it is "stolen" tomorrow (or just ends up in a river) and you walk away with a huge check.



Ricky Bobby said:


> ^^Ding ding this. I am giving them until New Years for the fix, plus theres nothing we would want to buy anyway right now - According to court docs, the late final deadline for submission of a 1st gen fix for the 2.0 TDI so I'll give them until then to get something submitted - trust me after this long, thats plenty of time for them -
> 
> In my opinion the "keep car and hush money" option is only viable for a settlement if they actually get a fix approved - other than that its choose no compensation and keep car or take the buy back which is pretty much not changing except for mileage between now and 2019


From what I understand, I agree with the above, you either would want to get the payout or do nothing as saying you want the fix means nothing and you don't know when or what you will end up with.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> I would be surprised if any company would insure a non collectible car for far more than the current book value. Seems like fraud waiting to happen. You insure a $10k car for $20k and it is "stolen" tomorrow (or just ends up in a river) and you walk away with a huge check.


So you are saying the Appraised Value Demolition Derby I was just about to propose for TDI Fest wouldn't fly?


But really yeah if you got someone to agree to value you it at the VW buy back amount why even bother waiting? just make it disappear after a few weeks of coverage, you just saved yourself a couple months of insurance and possibly car payments. Which is why it wouldn't likely be a policy anyone would write for an affordable amount.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> So you are saying the Appraised Value Demolition Derby I was just about to propose for TDI Fest wouldn't fly?
> 
> 
> But really yeah if you got someone to agree to value you it at the VW buy back amount why even bother waiting? just make it disappear after a few weeks of coverage, you just saved yourself a couple months of insurance and possibly car payments. Which is why it wouldn't likely be a policy anyone would write for an affordable amount.


Not sure they could even do anything about you getting the policy, getting into your car, you running it into their building, walking back inside and telling them you just had an accident. "Yeah, it's really unfortunate that I had this accident right after getting the policy with the huge payout. How soon until I get my check, looking to upgrade".


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

E CODE said:


> You don't add the hush money to the buyout money. The buyout money includes the hush money.
> 
> https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/Settlement Payment Table for Owners.pdf -> You get either the amount in one column or the other - not both. The only things that modify the number is the options and mileage.


Ok that puts me in the clear. I always thought it was buyout + hush money. If it's all included in the buyout, then I get $30k, pays car off, and gives me some pocket money towards the R. I'm happy. lol Thanks for clarifying that since nobody else had said anything about it from what I've read. :thumbup:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

SixpackMk3 said:


> Thanks for clarifying that since nobody else had said anything about it from what I've read. :thumbup:


:sly: There were like 5 pages in this thread just on this very topic




No seriously there were


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

chris86vw said:


> :sly: There were like 5 pages in this thread just on this very topic
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh God, he got a new screen name!

I don't even want to look back and figure out what his old screen name was...

Let me know where to sign up for the TDI Demo Derby!


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

chris86vw said:


> :sly: There were like 5 pages in this thread just on this very topic
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol I'm not on here all day reading all the pages! As I said, I haven't seen anything from what I've read


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

Well, this is turning out to be really annoying finally for me...

I have a 2015 TDI SEL, my Buyback is $30,532.23, and my Keep the car and get it "Fixed" is $7543.

I want to keep my car cause I love the $hit out of it. But I won't get paid the $7543 until it's fixed??? This is BS!

An All-track might be in my near future if this is the case.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Given the current situation, I have started looking for a replacement vehicle so I can park the TDI in the garage until VW takes it back. Not going to risk someone totaling it.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Saggio44 said:


> I won't get paid the $7543 until it's fixed??? This is BS!


And if it can't be 'fixed' you have to have it bought back to get any extra cash :facepalm:


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

bubuski said:


> They want him to drive only 3k miles between now and Nov 1. SMH


For clarity, it has nothing to do with what VW "wants" him to drive. It just means that based on the mileage brackets for adjustments, the dollar amount calculated is based on one bracket, but if he exceeds that mileage between now and the estimated buyback date (Nov 1st in this case), it would push the mileage on the car up to the next bracket. That would result in a change in valuation based on the mileage adjustment.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

Saggio44 said:


> Well, this is turning out to be really annoying finally for me...
> 
> I have a 2015 TDI SEL, my Buyback is $30,532.23, and my Keep the car and get it "Fixed" is $7543.
> 
> ...


if you want to keep the car keep the car. You'll eventually get the money, or you'll just keep driving the car you say you already love. The only loss is money you did nothing to earn.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

veedubBiker said:


> For clarity, it has nothing to do with what VW "wants" him to drive. It just means that based on the mileage brackets for adjustments, the dollar amount calculated is based on one bracket, but if he exceeds that mileage between now and the estimated buyback date (Nov 1st in this case), it would push the mileage on the car up to the next bracket. That would result in a change in valuation based on the mileage adjustment.


X2, same as with any car you trade in, with higher miles you are likely to get paid less for the car. Seems reasonable to me. 

Except it isn't laid out on paper, no different than saying I am planning on trading my non VW car in 8 months from now and to get maximum $$ for it I can't drive it anymore. 



grawk said:


> if you want to keep the car keep the car. You'll eventually get the money, or you'll just keep driving the car you say you already love. The only loss is money you did nothing to earn.


Also agree, you continue to drive the car you wanted as though nothing happened, it works exactly like you bought it, when they have a fix they do it and pay you extra but if you want to get rid of it at any point there is an agreed upon value where the majority of the amount (mileage deduction continues) was set on Sept. 2015. Them paying up front would have a huge part of the people not getting the fix done for one reason or another.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

grawk said:


> The only loss is money you did nothing to earn.


Exactly this, not sure why it is so hard to understand.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> Them paying up front would have a huge part of the people not getting the fix done for one reason or another.


Yup, the part that people seem to be forgetting is that the payment is to compel you to comply with the EPA/CARB order, it isn't the hush money people keep saying especially for those choosing a fix. 

If there is no fix the money is there to compel you to sell the car back to VW.

Other than a loss in value no TDI owner was hurt any more than any other person in the world, you aren't further affected by the pollution than your neighbor (unless you have some illness that does make you more vulnerable but owning the TDI doesn't change that). 

This isn't about awe you poor thing you own a TDI, it is to get you to get the car off the road or get it fixed nothing else.


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

Why would they give you the money before the car was fixed?? If that was the case many people would take the money and delay getting the fix for as long as possible (ie. forever). The whole point of this program is to get these cars off the road. You don't get to keep a car that you like a lot, in great part because it gets its performance and mileage through excess pollution, AND take thousands of dollars in restitution. :facepalm:

You are welcome to continue driving the car that you thought was a perfectly acceptable value when you paid for it, and it will continue to operate exactly the same way. But you can't have both. And you have the insurance of at least a portion of the payout to cover you should you wreck it or change your mind.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

zhenya00 said:


> The whole point of this program is to get these cars off the road. You don't get to keep a car that you like a lot, in great part because it gets its performance and mileage through excess pollution, AND take thousands of dollars in restitution. :facepalm:
> 
> You are welcome to continue driving the car that you thought was a perfectly acceptable value when you paid for it, and it will continue to operate exactly the same way. But you can't have both. And you have the insurance of at least a portion of the payout to cover you should you wreck it or change your mind.


I've said it before. VW is going to make it very difficult for you to keep your car.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> I've said it before. VW is going to make it very difficult for you to keep your car.


What have they done to make it difficult to keep your car? If you are happy with it, continue to drive it as though nothing has changed.

They do have to make the incentives great enough that you *want* to get rid of or fix it but I don't see this making you do anything.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

aj4066 said:


> I've said it before. VW is going to make it very difficult for you to keep your car.


Not that difficult since the buyback prices being offered borderline on wholesale/trade in values.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

AJB said:


> Not that difficult since the buyback prices being offered borderline on wholesale/trade in values.



^This. If VW wanted you to get rid of your car so bad they would offer exactly what you paid plus an incentive to get rid of it - if the top priority was to get you out of the car.

VW did NOT want to do buybacks - the EPA/CARB forced it as part of the settlement - which is why you see the values + restitution where it is - VW would rather you just keep driving and get a gift card and similar to Takata airbags, "when we find something to fix it you'll be the first to know" -


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

In case owners want to know why they aren't getting more for their buyback vehicles, this fine amounts to $8380 per TDI registered in WA. 


*VW 'regrets' Washington state's $176M fine for polluting diesels*



> FRANKFURT -- Volkswagen Group said it regretted the U.S. state of Washington's decision to fine it $176 million over the automaker's emissions scandal.
> 
> The fine ran counter to efforts to resolve U.S. consumer claims collectively, VW said in a statement today.
> 
> ...


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

So doing the online submission I found I am getting several hundred more $$ as long as we keep it under 45K miles (39k and change now) :thumbup::thumbup: ... after the insurance disappointment for extra coverage (for obvious reasons) may speed up us parting with the TDI sooner than we planned. 

NADA value (depending on which insurance uses) for trade in put this around $13K - the BB from VW will be $26,700 for our JSW.... so that's a $13K gap on a paid off car and gamble of possible loss. This creates a stronger reason for us to sparingly use it as that's a big (potential) loss that would require us to file a lawsuit against VW if a loss happened and that would get eaten up by lawyer fees. :banghead::banghead:


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

Advice, anyone?

I've been thinking about taking my TDI off the road until it comes time to turn it back in. I'm really close to crossing the 100k mark and have a fairly long commute. At the rate I'm at, I'll bump myself into the next mileage bracket before the end of August. I owe less than $4k on the balance and am considering paying the note off with a no-interest promo on a credit card I have to get the title for the car. At that point I'd transfer the plates to my replacement vehicle ('06 Sprinter) and put the miles on that. I could either make payments equal to my current car payment or wait until I receive the payout and pay off the balance in full. As it stands I have no plan to spend my buyout, so losing out on a chunk of it wouldn't bother me.

My logic; I save the little bit of interest on the payments from now until the buyout, I save on insurance (quoted at ~$30/mo less), I keep myself out of the next mileage bracket, and I'd remove the (albeit negligible) chance of totaling the car. My craptastic math puts my savings around $750.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

VW has to get 85% of the cars off of the road. I understand it's the EPA/Carb that is pressuring the vehicles off of the road but at the end of the day, the responsibility lands in the hands of VW. 

VW is going to do anything and everything to get them off the streets.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

PnZrFsT said:


> My craptastic math puts my savings around $750.


-tow cost to dealer

= is it worth it?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> VW has to get 85% of the cars off of the road.


NO

NO

NO 

NO 

That has never been the case ever!

Stop with the BS that has already been clarified dozens of times over.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

aj4066 said:


> VW has to get 85% of the cars off of the road *to avoid MORE fines*. I understand it's the EPA/Carb that is pressuring the vehicles off of the road but at the end of the day, the responsibility lands in the hands of VW.
> 
> VW is going to do anything and everything to get them off the streets.


Fixed.

VW gets fined more millions for every 1% more than 15% of the cars left on the road.... so in theory, they could have just said screw it, and paid the extra fines. However, I assume the extra fine is way more than the cost to buyback/fix each 4850 cars that represent 1%... If you dig through the court docs, you can find out exactly how much they get fined if they miss the 85%...


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

PnZrFsT said:


> Advice, anyone?
> 
> I've been thinking about taking my TDI off the road until it comes time to turn it back in. I'm really close to crossing the 100k mark and have a fairly long commute. At the rate I'm at, I'll bump myself into the next mileage bracket before the end of August. I owe less than $4k on the balance and am considering paying the note off with a no-interest promo on a credit card I have to get the title for the car. At that point I'd transfer the plates to my replacement vehicle ('06 Sprinter) and put the miles on that. I could either make payments equal to my current car payment or wait until I receive the payout and pay off the balance in full. As it stands I have no plan to spend my buyout, so losing out on a chunk of it wouldn't bother me.
> 
> My logic; I save the little bit of interest on the payments from now until the buyout, I save on insurance (quoted at ~$30/mo less), I keep myself out of the next mileage bracket, and I'd remove the (albeit negligible) chance of totaling the car. My craptastic math puts my savings around $750.


How long is the promotional rate on the credit card? Basically if you don't get the check from VW in time and have to pay interest what does this cost and is it calculated from the end of promotion or from when you got the money?

I don't understand the "I have no plan on spending my buyout, so losing out on a chunk of it wouldn't bother me". Make the best financial decision regardless of where the money is going.

I wouldn't drop insurance completely, assuming this is only because of the reduced mileage? If because of mileage, won't the Sprinter then go up?

Is it worth $750 total to put mileage on the Sprinter instead of the VW or have a car you don't drive anymore?

Is the payout from VW much higher than what it is worth and how much do you think there is a risk of it being totaled as I don't think we understand exactly what happens if the car is destroyed.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

E CODE said:


> Fixed.
> 
> VW gets fined more millions for every 1% more than 15% of the cars left on the road.... so in theory, they could have just said screw it, and paid the extra fines. However, I assume the extra fine is way more than the cost to buyback/fix each 4850 cars that represent 1%... If you dig through the court docs, you can find out exactly how much they get fined if they miss the 85%...


X2, once they know what the fine is for each additional 1%, then figure out what this equates to per car, just work backwards to figure out what to offer each owner. If the fine was "$X" per car then VW would figure out all of their costs for getting back the cars, plus the costs to administer the program, and offer an amount that is less than the EPA fine per car. Only real problem comes when they offer way less than the fine but then come up short on the percentage. I guess they could offer some kind of incentive in early 2019 if the numbers were looking like they weren't going to get to 85%.

If I was told that my choice was to either pay a fine for what I have done or fix the problem I would run the numbers and decide what made more sense.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Received our buyback estimate and 11/1 turn in date. 

Looks like we can add another 5000 miles to it and still be at our buyback estimate, so I think we'll swap cars for a couple of months and I'll commute in the TDI as I do 32-34mi RT each day vs. about 4. Might as well keep miles down on the Mk7.

I admit, now that we're at this point I have a twinge of internal conflict. It's still a great car, has been nearly faultless for over 4.5 years, has less than 24k miles overall (commute length greatly reduced after purchase), and still meets all of our needs. 

I also have a hard time thinking about it being destroyed and more resources being consumed to build another car for us to buy.

But as stated above, if the buyback estimate is anywhere near what they pay out, it's clear VW wants these cars off the road. There is no other way it makes financial sense to keep it, especially with the unknowns surrounding any emissions 'fix'.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

chris86vw said:


> -tow cost to dealer
> 
> = is it worth it?


I highly doubt I'd bother having it towed. I'd just toss some plates on it for the short drive (few miles). 

I don't need to be reminded that this is a bad idea :laugh:



dmorrow said:


> How long is the promotional rate on the credit card? Basically if you don't get the check from VW in time and have to pay interest what does this cost and is it calculated from the end of promotion or from when you got the money?


Promo is 6 months. Should be long enough, however in the event the buyback takes longer I'd be able to pay the balance off before it ended if need be. I'd just prefer not to have to dip into savings, which is why I'd use that promo.



> I don't understand the "I have no plan on spending my buyout, so losing out on a chunk of it wouldn't bother me". Make the best financial decision regardless of where the money is going.


I think I phrased that line poorly. I guess what I mean to say is that I don't have a plan to spend any of the buyout, so having to use some of it to pay off the balance does not bother me. Making payments until the buyback and getting a larger check vs paying the full $4k at once with the check is a wash for me. I



> I wouldn't drop insurance completely, assuming this is only because of the reduced mileage? If because of mileage, won't the Sprinter then go up?


The Sprinter mileage will go up, but that's fine with me. That's why I bought it!



> Is it worth $750 total to put mileage on the Sprinter instead of the VW or have a car you don't drive anymore?


It would cross out what I will pay for the tax title and reg that I'll need to pay to put the van on the road, which would be nice.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Numbersix said:


> But as stated above, if the buyback estimate is anywhere near what they pay out, it's clear VW wants these cars off the road. There is no other way it makes financial sense to keep it, especially with the unknowns surrounding any emissions 'fix'.


If it was up to VW they would have never been caught, don't think for a second that VW is doing this cause it is the right thing. They were forced to.

I suggest reading the details of the NY and MA lawsuit to see how deeply rooted VW's ethical issues are.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

Numbersix said:


> Received our buyback estimate and 11/1 turn in date.


FWIW - I believe everyone is getting this date, since they won't have a way of knowing when they can't start buying the cars back due to the rest of the pending legal hoopla.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

aj4066 said:


> VW has to get 85% of the cars off of the road. I understand it's the EPA/Carb that is pressuring the vehicles off of the road but at the end of the day, the responsibility lands in the hands of VW.
> 
> VW is going to do anything and everything to get them off the streets.





E CODE said:


> Fixed.
> 
> VW gets fined more millions for every 1% more than 15% of the cars left on the road.... so in theory, they could have just said screw it, and paid the extra fines. However, I assume the extra fine is way more than the cost to buyback/fix each 4850 cars that represent 1%... If you dig through the court docs, you can find out exactly how much they get fined if they miss the 85%...





dmorrow said:


> X2, once they know what the fine is for each additional 1%, then figure out what this equates to per car, just work backwards to figure out what to offer each owner. If the fine was "$X" per car then VW would figure out all of their costs for getting back the cars, plus the costs to administer the program, and offer an amount that is less than the EPA fine per car. Only real problem comes when they offer way less than the fine but then come up short on the percentage. I guess they could offer some kind of incentive in early 2019 if the numbers were looking like they weren't going to get to 85%.
> 
> If I was told that my choice was to either pay a fine for what I have done or fix the problem I would run the numbers and decide what made more sense.



It's 85% have to be removed from service OR receive the approved fix (which does not yet exist). Just to be complete.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

dmorrow said:


> X2, once they know what the fine is for each additional 1%, then figure out what this equates to per car, just work backwards to figure out what to offer each owner. If the fine was "$X" per car then VW would figure out all of their costs for getting back the cars, plus the costs to administer the program, and offer an amount that is less than the EPA fine per car. Only real problem comes when they offer way less than the fine but then come up short on the percentage. I guess they could offer some kind of incentive in early 2019 if the numbers were looking like they weren't going to get to 85%.
> 
> If I was told that my choice was to either pay a fine for what I have done or fix the problem I would run the numbers and decide what made more sense.


It's roughly 100 million per 4000 cars left on the road above 15%. 

That's $25,000 per car. 

Given there are about 482,000 2.0L in the US, and the total cost for buy back on those is $10,033,000,000 the average cost to them on the buyback is only $20,815.

So they actually save $4,185 per car going with the buyback versus the fine.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

veedubBiker said:


> It's 85% have to be removed from service OR receive the approved fix (which does not yet exist). Just to be complete.


Correct.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Update for Canadians....

There is no update.... VW of Canada updated the Ontario court yesterday, but apparently the court ordered the details confidential. 

And there was no mention of another future date for updates.

In fact, VW has now started to direct owners to https://www.volkswagenclassaction.com/ - which tells me that they are likely close to a settlement, and need to start gathering info.... but that is pure speculation.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

PnZrFsT said:


> FWIW - I believe everyone is getting this date, since they won't have a way of knowing when they can't start buying the cars back due to the rest of the pending legal hoopla.



11/1 is the default date that is pre-populated in the field when you complete the form, IIRC. you can choose different dates, but it looks like that is the very earliest they're anticipating starting to deal with this.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

E CODE said:


> It's roughly 100 million per 4000 cars left on the road above 15%.
> 
> That's $25,000 per car.
> 
> ...


Agree but there are a lot of costs and possible revenues that we don't know about. Paying the fine comes with almost no other costs (at deadline huge payment), the buyback comes with lots of costs - call centers, process of paying money to individuals, dealers costs, collecting cars and doing something with them. Not sure if there is revenue generated from the cars coming in. Did they ever say what they are doing with them? If they end up outside of the U.S. I don't think the EPA or our government care or even want to try to do something about it. Sell each collected car for even $7k each (average) would generate a lot of money.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

E CODE said:


> Given there are about 482,000 2.0L in the US, and the total cost for buy back on those is $10,033,000,000 the average cost to them on the buyback is only $20,815.


Keep in mind VW is only going for 85% participation, and that many cars are no longer on the road due to being totaled/scrapped already.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> Did they ever say what they are doing with them? If they end up outside of the U.S. I don't think the EPA or our government care or even want to try to do something about it.


Yes it was stated in the pending court order that the vehicles must be fixed or destroyed, they cannot be exported as is. So they obviously care or they would not have made sure that was included.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

According to VWGoA website: 

My *leased* 2014 with 38,000 on it offers: 

$3,356 for either option- 

_Choice A
Current Owners and Lessees who choose to keep their vehicles and receive an Approved Emissions Modification free of charge will receive an additional restitution payment, calculated using two components: 1) a percentage of the September 2015 NADA Used Car Guide Clean Trade including manufacturer-installed options; and 2) a flat dollar amount.

Vehicles receiving the approved emissions modification will also receive an extended emissions warranty covering the emissions system of the eligible vehicle.


Choice B
Current Lessees who choose to terminate their leases early will receive a restitution payment, calculated using two components: 1) a percentage of the September 2015 NADA Used Car Guide Clean Trade including manufacturer-installed options; and 2) a flat dollar amount.

Lessees electing this option will be required to have an end of term inspection conducted on their vehicles and will be responsible for all excess mileage, wear and tear, late payments other charges ( except early termination fee ) per the terms of the Lease Agreement._

The requirement of the vehicle needing to be in lease-turn in condition upon return is not something I expected. I have always thought of it as a simple vehicle turn over for those of us who leased the TDI. That said, I feel as though if I go back to VW and say, heres the car, I want another VW...things like my winter tires and non-serviced DSG will be an afterthought.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

Just a reminder to everyone.......if you want to take part in the "fix" or buyback you must register online with VW Claims.

https://claims.vwgoa.com/#/

Create a online account. Enter vehicle/personal info, and select the option you want (buyback or fix). I'm willing to bet a lot of people don't know about this yet.





I elected to have my car fixed. The calculated buyback amount for a 2012 Golf TDI w/ 111K miles and owned was $15,983. The "fix" option would give me $2789. We love the car so we're keeping it and getting the $2789 check and emissions fix......which I will immediately disable or remove when I dump all of the other emissions crap.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Uberhare said:


> Just a reminder to everyone.......if you want to take part in the "fix" or buyback you must register online with VW Claims.
> 
> https://claims.vwgoa.com/#/
> 
> ...


Don't you at least get the minimum $5100 for the fix option?


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

grawk said:


> if you want to keep the car keep the car. You'll eventually get the money, or you'll just keep driving the car you say you already love. The only loss is money you did nothing to earn.


To my understanding, not if the car is totaled...


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

chris86vw said:


> Exactly this, not sure why it is so hard to understand.


Who said anything about not understanding?


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

Saggio44 said:


> To my understanding, not if the car is totaled...


even if the car is totaled, as long as you have insurance, the only thing you stand to lose is money you didn't earn.


----------



## Rugrat Anklebiter (Dec 5, 2000)

Uberhare said:


> Just a reminder to everyone.......if you want to take part in the "fix" or buyback you must register online with VW Claims.
> 
> https://claims.vwgoa.com/#/
> 
> ...



Is this site legit? They want an awful lot of VERY personal information, such as a loan account number from your financial institution.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Rugrat Anklebiter said:


> Is this site legit? They want an awful lot of VERY personal information, such as a loan account number from your financial institution.


Previously discussed: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...0-vehicles&p=98498809&viewfull=1#post98498809


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

spockcat said:


> Previously discussed: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...0-vehicles&p=98498809&viewfull=1#post98498809


It also highlights that VW would look more like they know what they're doing if they had just made it something like recallclaims.vw.com instead.


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

grawk said:


> even if the car is totaled, as long as you have insurance, the only thing you stand to lose is money you didn't earn.


:facepalm: Geez, really? 

Well you see, I "earned" this settlement money as soon as VW was found guilty of rigging our cars to pass emissions and telling everyone what great MPG the cars get. When the so called "Fix" is done, what effects is it going to have on my car? (Not so good MPG? Use more AdBlue?) Nobody knows. I didn't buy my car knowing VW has been rigging these TDI's to pass emissions.

THIS is how we've all "Earned" this settlement money. 

What's your issue with getting this money from VW? Are you not going to partake in it because you personally feel you didn't "Earn" the money? doubtful...


----------



## Rugrat Anklebiter (Dec 5, 2000)

Rugrat Anklebiter said:


> Is this site legit? They want an awful lot of VERY personal information, such as a loan account number from your financial institution.


After searching all over, this appears to be a legit site.


----------



## tacticalbeaver (Apr 27, 2006)

Saggio44 said:


> To my understanding, not if the car is totaled...


It sounds complex if the car is totaled, but most owners will still get the restitution amount. Just no buyback.



> If you owned an Eligible Vehicle that was functioning and operable as of September 18, 2015, but was subsequently totaled (and the title was transferred to an insurance company), you will be eligible for benefits under the Class Action Settlement as described in this notice at Question 19. There is one exception: if your car is totaled after June 28, 2016, but before the opt-out date (September 16, 2016), you
> are excluded from the settlement class and reserve your rights and claims against the Volkswagen entities.


https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/e...nt Agreement/Exhibit 3 - Long Form Notice.pdf


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

Saggio44 said:


> :facepalm: Geez, really?
> 
> Well you see, I "earned" this settlement money as soon as VW was found guilty of rigging our cars to pass emissions and telling everyone what great MPG the cars get. When the so called "Fix" is done, what effects is it going to have on my car? (Not so good MPG? Use more AdBlue?) Nobody knows. I didn't buy my car knowing VW has been rigging these TDI's to pass emissions.
> 
> ...


earned = results from work you did

I'm not opposed to the money, I'm gladly either going to take the buyback or the repair money, depending on whether or not I still have a 110 mile a day commute when the decision point arrives. Just saying not to spend too much time worrying about it, it's found money. Drive the car, get use out of it, and be happy if the found money arrives. If it doesn't, it's not really a loss.


----------



## maydaymike (Dec 12, 2014)

Rugrat Anklebiter said:


> Is this site legit? They want an awful lot of VERY personal information, such as a loan account number from your financial institution.


  It didn't ask me for an account number... just the bank name and approximate balance.


----------



## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

I'm a little hesitant to fill that out... An besides vw knows who has these cars already.. They sent out $1000 to us months ago. 
I'll wait till I get an official letter in the mail FROM vw :thumbup:


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

That site does seem sketchy, but I linked to it from the VW settlement site and believe it to be legit. 

VW has done a terrible job of communicating with owners. If it weren't for this thread I would never have known anything about the settlement. I received one letter from the president of Audi early on promising quick action and frequent updates. There have been no further communications from them. Maybe for a legal proceeding this is quick, but best case it will end up being more than a year from breaking news to payout. It's really hard to have any sympathy for VW since they committed such a deliberate fraud over such a long period of time and immediately admitted wrongdoing when it came to light.


----------



## Kzoo (Jun 23, 2011)

Ok, wtf has happened to my "offer". Initially I worked out what they would likely buy my car back for using the "Attachment 1A and 2B" paperwork found earlier in this thread. The buy back amount equaled $18,917. I didn't think it was great, meaning it wasn't the WOW offer that we were lead to believe we would get, but it wasn't terrible...we'll call it fair. Being reasonably satisfied with what I had coming to me I haven't been keeping up with things. Fast forward to just now, I just went to this website and filled out the info and the "Vehicle Buyback Estimated Total" is now $13,975. WTF happened to $4,942?! 

I haven't been keeping up with this, so can someone PLEASE enlighten me as to WTF happened with the differences in "offers" here.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

Kzoo said:


> Ok, wtf has happened to my "offer". Initially I worked out what they would likely buy my car back for using the "Attachment 1A and 2B" paperwork found earlier in this thread. The buy back amount equaled $18,917. I didn't think it was great, meaning it wasn't the WOW offer that we were lead to believe we would get, but it wasn't terrible...we'll call it fair. Being reasonably satisfied with what I had coming to me I haven't been keeping up with things. Fast forward to just now, I just went to this website and filled out the info and the "Vehicle Buyback Estimated Total" is now $13,975. WTF happened to $4,942?!
> 
> I haven't been keeping up with this, so can someone PLEASE enlighten me as to WTF happened with the differences in "offers" here.


Are you only looking at the buyback number and not looking at the total which includes the compensation?

My buyback value is $14,500 but total compensation is $20,368


----------



## Kzoo (Jun 23, 2011)

VT1.8T said:


> Are you only looking at the buyback number and not looking at the total which includes the compensation?
> 
> My buyback value is $14,500 but total compensation is $20,368


I don't know where you've seen "total compensation". I have "Vehicle Buyback ESTIMATED TOTAL" . 
Which includes:
Vehicle Return Amount $8,875.00
Additional Restitution $5,100.00


That's it!


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

Kzoo said:


> I don't know where you've seen "total compensation". I have "Vehicle Buyback ESTIMATED TOTAL" .
> Which includes:
> Vehicle Return Amount $8,875.00
> Additional Restitution $5,100.00
> ...


I don't have the exact wording in front of me. But looks like you are seeing both numbers.


----------



## Kzoo (Jun 23, 2011)

yup. So, did they just scrap the buyback amounts from Column 1 on attachment 1A? 
Because my TDI Cup Car WAS worth $15,857 + $540 for options =$16,397. Before the mileage deduction and $5,100 restitution was taken into account.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Kzoo said:


> yup. So, did they just scrap the buyback amounts from Column 1 on attachment 1A?
> Because my TDI Cup Car WAS worth $15,857 + $540 for options =$16,397. Before the mileage deduction and $5,100 restitution was taken into account.


$15857 included the restitution. You don't add an additional $5100 to it.

This was thoroughly beat dead multiple times.


----------



## Kzoo (Jun 23, 2011)

automobiliben said:


> $15857 included the restitution. You don't add an additional $5100 to it.
> 
> This was thoroughly beat dead multiple times.


As stated, I haven't really kept up with this. Thanks for the answer though! That does seem to take care of the 5k ish difference in the numbers. 
That blows.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Kzoo said:


> As stated, I haven't really kept up with this. Thanks for the answer though! That does seem to take care of the 5k ish difference in the numbers.
> That blows.


NP!

Yeah, there were some people on here spreading nonsense, but the paper work was very clear that the restitution was included in Table 1A already.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

This popped up in my instagram and thought it was interesting. Reading through all the docs "social media" is listed as advert channels for getting the word out on this.










Also that reg site people are afraid of is legit. You'll get a letter in the mail with an access code, or you can sign up now with your VIN.


----------



## Rugrat Anklebiter (Dec 5, 2000)

maydaymike said:


> It didn't ask me for an account number... just the bank name and approximate balance.


My guess would be because your financial institution wasn't VWoA?


----------



## Rugrat Anklebiter (Dec 5, 2000)

Although I do enjoy the MPG range of our TDI, it would not make financial sense to keep the car. Right now on kbb.com, our car is worth $12,583 selling to a dealer, $14,143 selling to a private party. I'll let them crush it for $19,750. Maybe, I'll go buy a used one from a lot and pocket the difference or move on to a different type of vehicle.

Preferred Option: Vehicle Buyback
Projected Mileage at Return: 40,001-45,000
Tentative Return Date: 11/1/16
ESTIMATED TOTAL: $26,686.73
Vehicle Return Amount: $19,750.00
Additional Restitution: $6,936.73
Amount Paid to Your Lender: $20,133.44
Amount Paid to You: $6,553.29

Note: Your decision at this point is non-binding. At any point before the final transaction, you can change your preference.
After hitting "SUBMIT", to change your preference you will need to contact the Settlement Support Team at 844-98-CLAIM.


----------



## Charles Devine (Aug 22, 2007)

Rugrat Anklebiter said:


> Although I do enjoy the MPG range of our TDI, it would not make financial sense to keep the car. Right now on kbb.com, our car is worth $12,583 selling to a dealer, $14,143 selling to a private party. I'll let them crush it for $19,750. Maybe, I'll go buy a used one from a lot and pocket the difference or move on to a different type of vehicle.
> 
> Preferred Option: Vehicle Buyback
> Projected Mileage at Return: 40,001-45,000
> ...


This is what I said to my wife who drives our TDI. I pay $400 a month because I was upside down on another vehicle and wanted a vehicle for life, then this all pops up and It saves me another 4 years of payments. I'm going to take that money and run, I'll get something from offleaseonly.com probably, they have quite the selection and decent price. Some vehicles still even have factory warranty.

-Charles


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

grawk said:


> Just saying not to spend too much time worrying about it, it's found money. Drive the car, get use out of it, and be happy if the found money arrives. If it doesn't, it's not really a loss.


I like this term, "Found money". Very true.

Wish we could all find more money :thumbup:


----------



## jerrymander (Aug 27, 2014)

The part that bugs me about this is that I never got a single letter from VW about this except 1 letter from VWoA around February or something.

I believe the settlement is open for comments now, but VWoA never told the owners! It's like they really don't care about the owners. (yeah I know)


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

jerrymander said:


> The part that bugs me about this is that I never got a single letter from VW about this except 1 letter from VWoA around February or something.
> 
> I believe the settlement is open for comments now, but VWoA never told the owners! It's like they really don't care about the owners. (yeah I know)


That's how class action lawsuits generally go.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

jerrymander said:


> The part that bugs me about this is that I never got a single letter from VW about this except 1 letter from VWoA around February or something.
> 
> I believe the settlement is open for comments now, but VWoA never told the owners! It's like they really don't care about the owners. (yeah I know)


If you should be upset with anyone it should be with whoever is representing the VW owners in the negotiations. VW is on one side of the issue and the rest on are the other. Last thing VW wants to do is to tell 500,000 TDI owners that they are welcome to comment on what VW and the others have negotiated as there is only one thing owners are going to want and it is MORE, not less.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-exclusive-idUSKCN10921J



> *Exclusive: California regulator says testing to begin on Volkswagen diesel fix*
> 
> *Volkswagen AG and the California Air Resources Board will begin testing hardware and software that could help the German automaker avoid buying back as many as 475,000 diesel cars sold in the United States with improperly designed pollution controls, the head of the board told Reuters.*
> 
> ...


Possibly a big "win" for VW if it comes up with a fix for all of the cars and avoids the buyback. Maybe another reason for all of the delays is trying to come up with alternatives to buying them back and crushing them.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Saggio44 said:


> Who said anything about not understanding?


There are 300+ pages of not understanding..


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Saggio44 said:


> :facepalm: Geez, really?
> 
> Well you see, I "earned" this settlement money as soon as VW was found guilty of rigging our cars to pass emissions and telling everyone what great MPG the cars get.


 I got 49.5mpg on a 200 mile trip in my 2015 with the roof rack on last week average 68mpg

car does better than advertised. So does my 2012.



> When the so called "Fix" is done, what effects is it going to have on my car? (Not so good MPG? Use more AdBlue?) Nobody knows.


Since no one knows, it seems your particular lack of knowledge it greater than most, then as pointed out you haven't earned anything.


Since you seemed to think you earned this based around the fix, then I hope you are waiting for the fix to be announced and results of said fix before claiming any money. You are the one who has now set the terms on why you have earned it and those conditions have not been met


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

dmorrow said:


> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-exclusive-idUSKCN10921J
> 
> 
> 
> Possibly a big "win" for VW if it comes up with a fix for all of the cars and avoids the buyback. Maybe another reason for all of the delays is trying to come up with alternatives to buying them back and crushing them.


Thousands of owners already have a buyback number they've been given. There will be a sh t-storm if they try and back out of it now.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

zhenya00 said:


> Thousands of owners already have a buyback number they've been given. There will be a sh t-storm if they try and back out of it now.


I don't think EPA/CARB and the court would just let them back out and the dates in that article don't really jive with the current test submission schedule either. 

But more information on a fix would likely cause people to hold out (not necessarily in VWs best interest) to see if they want the fix vs selling it back. Seems like it would be people backing out of the buy back vs VW actually backing out.


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> I got 49.5mpg on a 200 mile trip in my 2015 with the roof rack on last week average 68mpg
> 
> car does better than advertised. So does my 2012.


I will NEVER understand how these quotes are relevant. The best I've ever done with my TDI Cup is 52. something MPG hypermiling the living hell out of it on a trip from NoVa to Ocean City, MD. If I put my Thule crossbars and faring on it, I get high 30s. Understanding the YMMV, not everybody can achieve the same numbers as you... as a matter of fact, I would bet that you are in the minority.

With that said, I would say that I am right on par with the advertised mileage figures for a TDI equipped with a DSG... and I'm not a spirited driver, nor am I a hypermiler.


----------



## JackStraw79 (Aug 10, 2015)

dmorrow said:


> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-exclusive-idUSKCN10921J
> 
> 
> 
> Possibly a big "win" for VW if it comes up with a fix for all of the cars and avoids the buyback. Maybe another reason for all of the delays is trying to come up with alternatives to buying them back and crushing them.


There is no "avoiding the buyback".

"However, if Volkswagen can satisfy regulators that repairs will significantly reduce emissions of oxides of nitrogen and other pollutants, *the company could offer consumers a choice *to keep their cars, and possibly reduce the costs of the settlement for the automaker."


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Geesixty said:


> I will NEVER understand how these quotes are relevant.


There isn't much to understand. I was replying to a user who was saying he earned the money because VW lied to them and the fix will lower the fuel economy.

I posted an example of me not in anyway hypermling getting well over the advertised amount, so a fix would really need to do quite a bit to reduce it below the advertised mpg. It was directly related to what I replied to. 

So the they lied to me about mpg not only has yet to be seen but doesn't seem relevant since most owners see higher than advertised, as in they lied in your favor already.. As for the environment it doesn't hurt an owner anymore than it hurts their neighbor. 



> as a matter of fact, I would bet that you are in the minority.


You are correct, I am in the minority as a TDI owner who drives around with a roof rack on all the time doing over the speed limit. :thumbup:



I've done NOVA to eastern shore 2x in the last year once in my 2012 with bikes and the other my 2015 just the rack, both times loaded with camping gear. That's not exactly a trip representative of normal highway use so if you got 52mpg hypermiling there that is impressive. I think I managed just about highway rating on both. 


The week before the 49.5 mpg trip I did 40 on the way to pittsburgh and 42 I think on the way back with 2 bikes on the roof similar avg speed, but hit some traffic on the return. 



Fairing and square bars are a really big hit to fuel economy, I saw about a 10% on my 2012. if you are replacing your TDI cup and plan to continue to use a roof rack a fairingless aerobar setup won't hurt as much.


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

dmorrow said:


> Possibly a big "win" for VW if it comes up with a fix for all of the cars and avoids the buyback. Maybe another reason for all of the delays is trying to come up with alternatives to buying them back and crushing them.


They would still be buying back those cars from owners who choose that option. But if they have an approved fix, they can then apply it to the bought back cars and resell them.


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> There isn't much to understand. I was replying to a user who was saying he earned the money because VW lied to them and the fix will lower the fuel economy.
> 
> I posted an example of me not in anyway hypermling getting well over the advertised amount, so a fix would really need to do quite a bit to reduce it below the advertised mpg. It was directly related to what I replied to.
> 
> ...



Fair enough... and yes, Thule old school fairing and square bars... don't use them enough to justify buying a new set (the set I have is from early 2000). They absolutely KILL my fuel economy on long trips... 34-36 MPG this summer with two bikes, averaging 70-75 MPH from Maine to Watkins Glen, NY. Although, still better than tossing them in the bed of my F150 (16-18 MPG highway with a strong tailwind :laugh.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

I meticulously track fuel mileage with my A3 and my highest recorded tank ever was 39.7 mpg on an all-highway run at normal speeds. That's manual calculations, not the overly-optimistic onboard computer. It's great mileage, but I have never seen anything near 50mpg. When I had my bike on a roof mount Thule rack that knocked 4-5 mpg off and added a ton of wind noise. 

I don't doubt anyone else's calculations, but only have full confidence in my own since there are so many variables.


----------



## tsimitpo (Jul 22, 2014)

Regarding EPA rated mileage vs. actual, I just returned from a 2000 mile vacation to Banff National Park in Canada where I averaged 47 mpg for the whole trip. One day we logged 350 miles just running around between 4500 feet and 6500 feet in elevation with much road construction and numerous stops for short hikes and lookouts - end of day average was 50.8 mpg. If a fix hurts performance, I would miss torque more than fuel economy, but even a 10 percent hit wouldn't be a deal-breaker.

The far bigger concern to me - and apparently to the EPA as well - is the far greater pollution than advertised and sold. The dishonesty about it is even more egregious to me and I was one who bought into the diesel hype largely because it was advertised as having less environmental impact than a Prius. Now I wouldn't have bought a Prius (I test drove one before driving a VW TDI), but the promise of a "clean diesel" definitely swayed me to the TDI over a Honda Accord - the car I would've purchased if I didn't get the VW.

In VW's defense - if I had never come to them to check out the TDI, I may have never discovered how much more fun it is to drive than a Honda Accord. In large part that is why my "replacement vehicle" is an Audi A4 rather than another Honda.

I believe they owe me something for the inconvenience of lost equity due to deception and the hit to their public image - and for me the compensation number for a fix is just about right, while the buyback is ONLY barely acceptable (they're giving me nothing for the $500 hitch I added) because it's backdated to 9/2015.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

*Mileage*

I have a question for those posting their mileage. Are you calculating your mileage by hand or relying upon the MFI calculations? The reason I ask is that the MFI usually indicates 45-50 miles per gallon. However, when I calculate my mileage, I get anywhere from 39-42 mpg. It seems as if when they "fixed" my ECU in December 2014 (due to alleged recall), my mileage decreased by about 2-3 mpg. I think this "fix" was to avoid the disclosure of the cheat software.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

tomski12 said:


> I have a question for those posting their mileage. Are you calculating your mileage by hand or relying upon the MFI calculations? The reason I ask is that the MFI usually indicates 45-50 miles per gallon. However, when I calculate my mileage, I get anywhere from 39-42 mpg. It seems as if when they "fixed" my ECU in December 2014 (due to alleged recall), my mileage decreased by about 2-3 mpg. I think this "fix" was to avoid the disclosure of the cheat software.


I, like many others here calculate fuel economy by hand at fill-up. 45mpg tanks are the average during warm months for me, with weekend trips up to Maine returning closer to the 48mpg range on my '11 Golf with a 6-speed and APR tune.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

I missed it, what does posting your actual mpg have to do with anything?

Also, assuming the "fix" really only needs to get them to EPA mpg ratings to be more than acceptable in the press - "VW fixed the cars and retain their EPA ratings" and they have room to reduce what people actually get. This is because TDI's get more than EPA ratings as they weren't running as certified?


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

Before I bought my car I downloaded the EPA spreadsheet with the raw data. Golf TDI got 64 MPG highway on their test. After corrections to make the data apply to the real world, they reported 42 MPG highway. I've only exceeded the 64 MPG once, on a long drive in the Sierra.

I'd totally be better off with a hybrid for most of my driving.

As to the fix, the EPA has said that it must not impact mileage. I expect it to be pretty much the same after the fix. Full throttle acceleration will probably not be impacted, either, as that is an exceptional condition and the car can emit more and still comply.

I'm taking the buyback and shopping for new vehicle. I've thoroughly enjoyed the TDI. If the GTE was available, I'd probably get one. I expect the GTE or whatever I get next to be the last fossil fuel car I buy. I probably won't miss them.


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

completed my claims registration yesterday and estimated buyback is spot on :thumbup:


----------



## jerrymander (Aug 27, 2014)

Blonde Guy said:


> I've only exceeded the 64 MPG once, on a long drive in the Sierra.


The snapshot MFI gauge in my car hovers from 63-69 MPG if I engage cruise control around 1100 RPM in sixth gear (roughly 42-48? mph). I think this is where special snowflake TDI users get their masturbatory numbers. I imagine that if some poor soul did decide to do this (like on CA127 through Death Valley) for an entire tank we should see an 850+ mile tank. But that's 20 hours of driving.


----------



## BudPytko (Apr 22, 2012)

Fuel mileage is another reason I have not hesitated to opt FOR the buyout. Since the new software was installed in my Passat, my mileage has been terrible. Mostly in the mid to high 30's whereas prior to that is was always in the mid to high 40's! I have lost faith in VW with the scandal and have parked it in favor of the 2015 Lincoln MKZ Hybrid is just purchased. On the trip back from Florida I got an average 43.7 MPG overall. ALL my fuel mileage numbers are hand calculated. Nice thing is that the buyout will pay back my bank account almost EXACTLY what the Lincoln cost me. And FYI, the Lincoln is MUCH more comfortable! I won't miss the rain-sensing wipers.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

BudPytko said:


> Fuel mileage is another reason I have not hesitated to opt FOR the buyout. Since the new software was installed in my Passat, my mileage has been terrible. Mostly in the mid to high 30's whereas prior to that is was always in the mid to high 40's! I have lost faith in VW with the scandal and have parked it in favor of the 2015 Lincoln MKZ Hybrid is just purchased. On the trip back from Florida I got an average 43.7 MPG overall. ALL my fuel mileage numbers are hand calculated. Nice thing is that the buyout will pay back my bank account almost EXACTLY what the Lincoln cost me. And FYI, the Lincoln is MUCH more comfortable! I won't miss the rain-sensing wipers.


Ok sorry no, I will flat out call you a liar over those changes, I don't care if that wads up your panties, you are. You didn't lose ~20% of your fuel economy from the software update.

Some cars like the 2009 Jettas have had upwards of 10 updates. If you were to go by all the OMG the revision killed my mpg claims people have had the current vehicles would get negative MPG. 

Yet there are still people who get the same mileage as they did with the original version and people with 2014s still got the same mpg with the latest revisions from day one as people were getting in 2009.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

Heading out on a road trip to SoCal in my TDI so I'll find out what my fuel economy numbers are and report here.

DSG for those wondering. I know the 6spd guys get much better fuel efficiency.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> Ok sorry no, I will flat out call you a liar over those changes, I don't care if that wads up your panties, you are. You didn't lose ~20% of your fuel economy from the software update.
> 
> Some cars like the 2009 Jettas have had upwards of 10 updates. If you were to go by all the OMG the revision killed my mpg claims people have had the current vehicles would get negative MPG.
> 
> Yet there are still people who get the same mileage as they did with the original version and people with 2014s still got the same mpg with the latest revisions from day one as people were getting in 2009.


There was a recall/software update about 2 years ago. And there are reports of worse fuel mileage. Obviously, not every software update is going to produce worse mileage. And it is entirely possible that the reports were due to other factors such as weather conditions after the update for those owners reporting worse mileage. 

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/thread...n-23n5-ecm-software-2012-2014-2-0l-tdi.27419/

Incidentally, why are we discussing mileage in the thread which is about the TDI recall/buyback? Aren't there plenty of threads in the specific TDI forums about mileage?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> There was a recall/software update about 2 years ago. And there are reports of worse fuel mileage. Obviously, not every software update is going to produce worse mileage. And it is entirely possible that the reports were due to other factors such as weather conditions after the update for those owners reporting worse mileage.
> 
> http://www.myturbodiesel.com/thread...n-23n5-ecm-software-2012-2014-2-0l-tdi.27419/


I'm aware, I've got every one of them on a drive if you want poke through the drastic fueling changes that don't exist... 

Every update owners have claimed a drop in fuel economy, every one of them. Not one or two.. all of them.

So either it wasn't the update, or somehow the update magically only hurt the mileage on select cars every third update.. or it's utter BS


Since the fix was supposed to remove the cheating all they possibly could have done then given the same hardware existed is made changes that would have done nothing to fuel economy, oh wait no it may have helped it if anything.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> Incidentally, why are we discussing mileage in the thread which is about the TDI recall/buyback?


Because, it is 100% relevant to the topic.

If you believe the final real fix, not the fake one that changed nothing mentioned above, are going to lower your fuel economy then the value of the car to many people is reduced. That may change whether they think the buyback or the fix is the best financial decision for them.


----------



## rick8018 (Jan 3, 2001)

jerrymander said:


> I think this is where special snowflake TDI users get their masturbatory numbers.


LMAO!!!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Back on topic, more or less, I have never done better than ~40 mpg hwy in my 2004, 2009 or 2013 TDI's. Five people, luggage, A/C on, 75ish mph. Around town gets upper 20's. Now, if I drove 55 on flat ground with no passengers then I might hit mid 40's, but 50 - 60 mpg??? Nah. Maybe my TDI's didn't get the VW fairy dust package.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Sooo...

Chevy Bolt, anyone? No wait list yet per our dealer, but perhaps by October (our car has an 11/1 buyback date). 

I'm going to miss this car, though. I was having serious remorse about it this weekend.


----------



## csl223 (Jun 2, 2012)

Numbersix said:


> Sooo...
> 
> Chevy Bolt, anyone? No wait list yet per our dealer, but perhaps by October (our car has an 11/1 buyback date).
> 
> I'm going to miss this car, though. I was having serious remorse about it this weekend.


You chose to keep the default assumed buyback date to estimate the mileage and total compensation in the claims center (11/1/16). This is not your buyback date.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Numbersix said:


> Sooo...
> 
> Chevy Bolt, anyone? No wait list yet per our dealer, but perhaps by October (our car has an 11/1 buyback date).
> 
> I'm going to miss this car, though. I was having serious remorse about it this weekend.


16 cubic foot cargo space is about 25% less than a golf with the seats up.

seats down roughly the same.

roughly same as Jetta and Passat too.


So yeah maybe reasonable replacement for anything but the wagons. Will probably make you really miss whatever you have though.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

csl223 said:


> You chose to keep the default assumed buyback date to estimate the mileage and total compensation in the claims center (11/1/16). This is not your buyback


I didn't actually fill out the form; my other half did, so I didn't catch that detail. I figured it wouldn't actually go back to VW on 11/1, but I'd like to be ready with a replacement. (We don't need to wait for it to be bought back.)

I realize that an EV short of a Model S--which is far too large for our needs--is unlikely to match the driving experience of the Golf TDI. I'm quite curious about the Bolt, though. The head R&D engineer is an SCCA racer, so I'm hoping there will be some thought given to the driving experience, not just efficiency.

Otherwise...the EV's we've looked at thus far (500e, Focus Electric, E-Golf, Leaf) haven't overwhelmed me.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

shots fired!!!


http://jalopnik.com/chevrolet-to-ki...ource=jalopnik_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

"I am very optimistic about the diesel market in the U.S. It has been abandoned by others and we are happy to step in and be the leader. Frankly that’s what we’d like to do ."

"There are a lot of diesel intenders and diesel-loyal people who are looking for a brand and vehicles to go after...they tend to be more tech savvy than the average customer. And they won’t stop wishing for a diesel. And we’ll go after those customers."


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

.LSinLV. said:


> shots fired!!!
> 
> 
> http://jalopnik.com/chevrolet-to-ki...ource=jalopnik_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow
> ...


Chevrolet should bring the Cruze wagon here with a diesel. There must be 100,000 Jetta/Golf Sportwagon owners out there that would jump at one of these.


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

It's a big assumption to think vw owners are looking to jump to chevy of all companies.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

grawk said:


> It's a big assumption to think vw owners are looking to jump to chevy of all companies.


Volkswagen has all the prestige in Europe as Chevrolet does in USA. And the Chevy is cheaper and easier to get serviced. My 2005 Colorado and my current Colorado were/are both more reliable than any VW I ever owned.


----------



## Uberhare (Jul 30, 2003)

spockcat said:


> Volkswagen has all the prestige in Europe as Chevrolet does in USA. And the Chevy is cheaper and easier to get serviced. My 2005 Colorado and my current Colorado were/are both more reliable than any VW I ever owned.


I've owned a Chevy Colorado. It was the least reliable vehicle I've owned. I had problems from the very day I brought it home form the dealership new. Horrible build quality. My 2012 VW TDI has been the most reliable vehicle I've owned so far.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

grawk said:


> It's a big assumption to think vw owners are looking to jump to chevy of all companies.


as many of you know, I sued GM over my Tahoe....a $46K expensive POS that spent more time in the shop than on the road.

I will NEVER own another GM product again. EVER.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

grawk said:


> It's a big assumption to think vw owners are looking to jump to chevy of all companies.


Chevy has a better reputation and reliability than VW in the States. And I'd take this in diesel form over a Jetta


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

chris86vw said:


> Since you seemed to think you earned this based around the fix, then I hope you are waiting for the fix to be announced and results of said fix before claiming any money. You are the one who has now set the terms on why you have earned it and those conditions have not been met


My plan was to keep the car for years to come anyways. If i can continue to drive it for 2 more years and still get the same amount for the buyback less mileage, this would be the best option for me. The car is payed off, and I'm in no rush to get rid of it. At the end of the day all 2009-2015 TDI owners are being well taken care of. :thumbup:


----------



## grawk (May 26, 2002)

Mazda 3s said:


> Chevy has a better reputation and reliability than VW in the States. And I'd take this in diesel form over a Jetta


That may well be true in general but I'd bet not in the case of most TDI owners. Certainly not in my experience.

Even the chevy people I know tend to view their non-pickup vehicles as being disposable. The brand is bad enough that corvettes aren't branded chevy any longer.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

grawk said:


> The brand is bad enough that corvettes aren't branded chevy any longer.


Are you saying that the Corvette isn't a Chevrolet because it doesn't have the Chevrolet badge on it? Is that your criteria? Because they are certainly on the Chevrolet official website. 

EDIT: Actually, I just noticed the Chevrolet badge is in the crossed flags on later models. As well as the 2016 model:


----------



## Embassy Garage (Jul 26, 2016)

grawk said:


> It's a big assumption to think vw owners are looking to jump to chevy of all companies.


My wife has a '14 Volt - which has been completely reliable and a fantastic car. We love the thing. And we sold her '12 Jetta TDI to get it
(wish we'd held onto her TDI now - and got a lease return Volt after the buyback!)

I've already bought my '10 TDI replacement - a Porsche 968 - But if I hadn't I'd definitely look at a Cruze diesel hatch. Or more likely a second Volt..


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> Volkswagen has all the prestige in Europe as Chevrolet does in USA.


That's like saying being seated right away while there is a wait at Nobu is the same as Hooters.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

The issue with the cruze is that you now are one of these people:











I don't want to drive a car that the typical buyer also has a thing for airbrushed license plates.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Speaking of Chevy: 
http://www.autonews.com/article/201...iesel-chevy-cruze?cciid=email-autonews-weekly




automotivenews.com said:


> TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. -- Chevrolet will go after Volkswagen’s diesel customers.
> 
> “There are a lot of diesel intenders and diesel-loyal people who are looking for a brand and vehicles to go after,” said Dan Nicholson, General Motors’ vice president for global propulsion systems.
> 
> ...


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

chris86vw said:


> The issue with the cruze is that you now are one of these people:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Holy crap. That's incredibly accurate!


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Another lawsuit for VW to fight.

*German state of Bavaria will sue VW over emissions scandal*



> BERLIN -- The German state of Bavaria said it will sue Volkswagen Group for damages caused by the emissions-test cheating scandal, the first regional government in VW's home country to take legal action against the automaker.
> 
> Bavaria's state pension fund for civil servants lost as much as 700,000 euros ($783,580) after VW shares plunged in the wake of the Sept. 18 announcement by U.S. regulators that VW had rigged diesel engines to lower NOx pollution.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

I guess VW thinks everyone is happy with the settlement. That would be the shareholders. I think the US courts should allow US investors sue VW in the US over their misinformation. VW stock is sold here to VW's benefit so they should play by our rules too.

*Volkswagen seeks dismissal of U.S. investor class-action lawsuit*



> BERLIN -- Volkswagen Group asked a U.S. district court to dismiss a class-action lawsuit filed on behalf of investors, arguing the tribunal cannot hear disputes over shares trading mostly in Germany.
> 
> The filing urges the judge in the court for the northern district of California to rely on a 2010 landmark Supreme Court ruling that says litigation over shares traded outside the U.S. can't be heard in the country, VW said Tuesday in an e-mailed statement.
> 
> ...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

wonder if that lawsuit has a sponsor


----------



## zhenya00 (Aug 7, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> Speaking of Chevy:
> http://www.autonews.com/article/201...iesel-chevy-cruze?cciid=email-autonews-weekly


The problem is they don't offer a wagon. There are something like 9 TDI's covered by dieselgate in my workplace of ~22. Eight of them are wagons. Nobody is considering Chevy for a replacement.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

zhenya00 said:


> The problem is they don't offer a wagon. There are something like 9 TDI's covered by dieselgate in my workplace of ~22. Eight of them are wagons. Nobody is considering Chevy for a replacement.


Exactly what I said on the previous page. Chevy needs to bring the wagon over here. Maybe it wouldn't sell like the hotcakes the JSW and GSW did but they would certainly capture some of those people who want the space but don't want a raised CUV.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> wonder if that lawsuit has a sponsor


And with good reason: *BMW new diesel cars approved by U.S. regulators while Mercedes waits for OK*



> TRAVERSE CITY, Michigan -- The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency said on Tuesday it has approved the sale of new 2017 model year BMW diesel vehicles in the United States after a thorough review.
> 
> Chris Grundler, head of the EPA's Office of Transportation and Air Quality, told reporters on the sidelines of an automotive conference the agency granted certification to BMW on Friday. BMW had said last month that U.S. product certification of all 2017 BMW diesel models has been delayed due to testing logistics.
> 
> ...


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Interesting... the fix that is under testing is only for Gen 3 cars. http://blog.caranddriver.com/volkswagen-submits-4-cyl-tdi-fix-for-epa-and-carb-scrutiny/



> Owners of TDI-badged Volkswagen or Audi models with the 2.0-liter turbo-diesel four-cylinder engine may soon see some resolution to an emissions scandal that has effectively left them hanging for nearly a year. With last week’s preliminary approval, it’s now nearly a done deal that hundreds of thousands of owners will be able to sell back their cars, beginning this fall. Not all owners will want to give up their vehicles—and the cars that remain on the road are going to rehab. Volkswagen’s estimated $10.033 billion remedy cost hinges on the approval of a plan to fix a portion of these models—tens of thousands of them—to bring them close to emissions compliance. If that plan isn’t approved, VW’s settlement costs could go significantly higher.
> 
> It’s in Volkswagen’s interest to put its best effort into a modification that will bring these cars down to the emissions levels at which U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the California Air Resources Board (CARB) will accept them. It now appears that the automaker has done exactly that, with the submission of a plan for the *Generation 3 TDI four-cylinder that was sold in a range of vehicles in the 2015 model year.* “The agencies have started to receive information from Volkswagen regarding a proposed emissions modification for the 2.0-liter Generation 3 vehicles,” confirmed EPA spokesperson Julia Valentine. If the plan was submitted in full last Friday—which was all but officially confirmed—it triggers the start of a 45-day evaluation period, as stipulated in the settlement documents, in which EPA and CARB will use their “best efforts to either approve or disapprove each complete proposal.” That sets the wheels in motion for the California Air Resources Board (CARB) to go through *several months of data gathering and durability testing to make sure that the remedy works.* “We will review data and do our own tests to ensure the modifications comply with the stringent requirements outlined in Appendix B,” explained CARB spokesman Stanley Young, referring to the standards outlined in the settlement’s massive Consent Decree. A Whole Semester of TDI Reform-School Deadlines This first four-cylinder fix is especially important, as the agencies will either approve or reject this solution by October 14—just before the final hearing of the class-action suit to be held on October 18.
> 
> ...


Which means, Gen 1 approval Near xmas, and Gen 2 near the beginning of Feb._ If they can get it..._


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

chris86vw said:


> The issue with the cruze is that you now are one of these people:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And you're exactly the kind of person that made the decision to leave VW behind so easy. A snob of mediocrity. :thumbup:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

E CODE said:


> Interesting... the fix that is under testing is only for Gen 3 cars. http://blog.caranddriver.com/volkswagen-submits-4-cyl-tdi-fix-for-epa-and-carb-scrutiny/
> 
> 
> 
> Which means, Gen 1 approval Near xmas, and Gen 2 near the beginning of Feb._ If they can get it..._


This is what gets me:










How are they going to meet that after repair figure for generation 1 cars?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> And you're exactly the kind of person that made the decision to leave VW behind so easy. A snob of mediocrity. :thumbup:


Must suck to be so miserable. Maybe one day you'll figure out how to laugh at jokes, until then we'll be glad you aren't here.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

The proposed technical solutions are described in the consent decree. In the case of the gen 1, it is more-or-less a different (presumably bigger with more catalyst area) LNT and different ECU programming. (It does NOT include AdBlue/SCR.) Whether that gets them as far as they have agreed, remains to be seen.

The consent decree includes descriptions of the proposed solutions and dates for submission of proposals, and surely neither these technical descriptions nor the proposed dates came out of nowhere. Rest assured that VW has already developed and has at least done preliminary testing of these solutions internally and has negotiated the higher emission limits with EPA and CARB and these limits didn't come out of nowhere, either.

The gen 3 has a more involved repair than the gen 2 ... but it also has tighter emission limits and additional diagnostic equipment. It appears to me that since the EA288 engine is current, and is a better design, and is in vehicles that are hung up in inventory waiting to be sold, these are being modified to be fully compliant so that sales of vehicles with this engine can continue going forward. The prior generations have design limitations that preclude full compliance (and replacing the old engine with EA288 isn't considered a viable solution).


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> How are they going to meet that after repair figure for generation 1 cars?


Since that is Car and Driver and not official (from what I could tell) are they using the before as the absolute worst case? We all know that the 40x likes to be repeated as often as possible even though it is actually only doing that under some conditions and not even all of them were. 

While they obviously were polluting does that absolute worst case occur during the actual test cycles performed by the EPA. Cheating or not they are being held to the same standards as everyone else not new ones right? So if they stop cheating, part of the problem, and fix it to what it was supposed to be they may not need to make up that much of a difference. 

Basically if the cheat was removed and they tested the car I don't think they would be going 40x the limit, so the need to make up that difference not the required legal limit to the 40x limit.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> Since that is Car and Driver and not official (from what I could tell) are they using the before as the absolute worst case? We all know that the 40x likes to be repeated as often as possible even though it is actually only doing that under some conditions and not even all of them were.
> 
> While they obviously were polluting does that absolute worst case occur during the actual test cycles performed by the EPA. Cheating or not they are being held to the same standards as everyone else not new ones right? So if they stop cheating, part of the problem, and fix it to what it was supposed to be they may not need to make up that much of a difference.
> 
> Basically if the cheat was removed and they tested the car I don't think they would be going 40x the limit, so the need to make up that difference not the required legal limit to the 40x limit.


95% reduction would only be about 20x if my maths are right. So that doesn't look like it is worst case 40x.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

GoFaster said:


> The proposed technical solutions are described in the consent decree. In the case of the gen 1, it is more-or-less a different (presumably bigger with more catalyst area) LNT and different ECU programming. (It does NOT include AdBlue/SCR.) Whether that gets them as far as they have agreed, remains to be seen.
> 
> The consent decree includes descriptions of the proposed solutions and dates for submission of proposals, and surely neither these technical descriptions nor the proposed dates came out of nowhere. Rest assured that VW has already developed and has at least done preliminary testing of these solutions internally and has negotiated the higher emission limits with EPA and CARB and these limits didn't come out of nowhere, either.
> 
> The gen 3 has a more involved repair than the gen 2 ... but it also has tighter emission limits and additional diagnostic equipment. It appears to me that since the EA288 engine is current, and is a better design, and is in vehicles that are hung up in inventory waiting to be sold, these are being modified to be fully compliant so that sales of vehicles with this engine can continue going forward. The prior generations have design limitations that preclude full compliance (and replacing the old engine with EA288 isn't considered a viable solution).


I'd heard the same for Gen1 cars... but then comes the question of how exactly do you make room for a bigger LNT? Floor pans are already custom made to pack everything that they need in there... and we are certainly not talking an increase of a couple inches... I'd imagine you'd need twice the surface area or something ridiculous like that. 

Plus, they can't really use the standard 'increase fuel to convert to nitrogen' as usual.... as that would impact mileage - and that's a non starter with the EPA (must not impact performance).


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> 95% reduction would only be about 20x if my maths are right. So that doesn't look like it is worst case 40x.


:thumbup: didn't feel like mathing


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

spockcat said:


> 95% reduction would only be about 20x if my maths are right. So that doesn't look like it is worst case 40x.


The legal limit is 0.08 g/mi. That chart is putting the gen 1 around maybe 1.04 g/mi or so? That's about 13x the limit. That sounds much more ballpark for the true emissions over the whole course of the test regime, as compared to the 40x figure (3.2g/mi) which was during only specific use cases. If the bar charts are to scale, it appears they would like to target something like 0.05 g/mi after repair, so as to be comfortably within the legal limit of 0.08.

Keep in mind also that they are allowed to spike about as high as they want to during regen, and they are allowed to manipulate testing so as to not do a regen during testing. That's a whole _different_ can of worms, and part of the reason that organizations like EPA and the environmentalists of the EU are not huge fans of combustion engines for the long-term. We're approaching a point where it's getting close to impossible to improve. Once we have gasoline PM filters, then that suggests we'll have regen cycles for gasoline cars too, with of course the "allowed cheating" of skipping emissions & fuel economy testing during regen. EVs are the only way to permanently get away from all of that.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

chris86vw said:


> Must suck to be so miserable. Maybe one day you'll figure out how to laugh at jokes, until then we'll be glad you aren't here.


Your back-pedaling game is weak. And since dieselgate brought you back, you've been about as humorous as a bag of dead puppies.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Your back-pedaling game is weak. And since dieselgate brought you back, you've been about as humorous as a bag of dead puppies.


What back pedaling and where did I allegedly go? 


You not understanding that those types of plates are very very common on the cruze making it funny is your problem no one else's.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

chris86vw said:


> What back pedaling and where did I allegedly go?
> 
> 
> You not understanding that those types of plates are very very common on the cruze making it funny is your problem no one else's.


Yeah, because VWs are never owned by white trash or ********. The individual sub-forums for each VW model on here is definitely full of academics. Your point is well-proven daily. :wave:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Yeah, because VWs are never owned by white trash or ********.


Wow jump to stereotypes much? You seem to be proving that you are the snob we should be glad won't be around much anymore... Good thing you continue you're here not owning a TDI and all setting everyone straight with your off topic rants over a joke you don't get. 

Even in NJ, a front state plate with a crap ton of money, these are commonly found in the not ******* parts on 17 year old Sussies Chevy cruze that dad bought her and she picked up the plate when her and Tom spent the weekend at the shore for prom.



I didn't say cavalier or sunfire


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

chris86vw said:


> You not understanding that those types of plates are very very common on the cruze making it funny is your problem no one else's.


I have never seen one of those plates on a Cruze and rarely see them on any vehicle around here. 
I think it says more about where you live than the type of car...


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

grawk said:


> It's a big assumption to think vw owners are looking to jump to chevy of all companies.


It would be bad business to sell a small diesel vehicle and not go after VW diesel owners turning their vehicles in. Not exactly a difficult decision to make.

Also surprised at the number of people that wouldn't consider a type of car because of it's image.


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

Saggio44 said:


> My plan was to keep the car for years to come anyways. If i can continue to drive it for 2 more years and still get the same amount for the buyback less mileage, this would be the best option for me. The car is payed off, and I'm in no rush to get rid of it. At the end of the day all 2009-2015 TDI owners are being well taken care of. :thumbup:


I plan to drive the piss out of mine til the last day of the buyback

CP


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

NeverEnoughCars said:


> I have never seen one of those plates on a Cruze and rarely see them on any vehicle around here.
> I think it says more about where you live than the type of car...


I would say if you see those plate they are more likely on old Altimas, Civics, or Chevy Cavilers. I've not seen one on a Cruze either. Frankly, I hardly ever see them anymore.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> Also surprised at the number of people that wouldn't consider a type of car because of it's image.


My post was a joke, I don't want one, but the post was a joke. Any car available with a turbo engine is on my short list of vehicles I try to pawn off on my partner so she ditches her damn sentra and the Cruze has come up. I even posted in the other thread about GMs statement specifically in regards to the size it and the 'NOX  and what cars they could or could not replace in the VW line up. You know encouraged the option. 


But really, as far as the image is concerned was that a joke too? Are you are actually surprised that people do or don't like a car based on image? I've owned Jettas and I don't hate the way the Cruze looks, but you can't ignore that to many people the image they portray is that the owner is a 20 year old female or got a good deal at the last enterprise fleet sale.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> But really, as far as the image is concerned was that a joke too? Are you are actually surprised that people do or don't like a car based on image? I've owned Jettas and I don't hate the way the Cruze looks, but you can't ignore that to many people the image they portray is that the owner is a 20 year old female or got a good deal at the last enterprise fleet sale.


VW sells the Jetta to rental fleets too. In fact, they also use Passats and Beetles too. There are 265 VWs for sale with Enterprise right now: https://www.enterprisecarsales.com/list/buy-a-car-1#0/10/Distance/a//make="VOLKSWAGEN"

They actually have about the same number of Jettas for sale as Cruzes. :laugh:


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

spockcat said:


> VW sells the Jetta to rental fleets too. In fact, they also use Passats and Beetles too. There are 265 VWs for sale with Enterprise right now: https://www.enterprisecarsales.com/list/buy-a-car-1#0/10/Distance/a//make="VOLKSWAGEN"
> 
> They actually have about the same number of Jettas for sale as Cruzes. :laugh:


I guess if all of us lived somewhere where most Chevy Cruzes have airbrushed front plates, we'd all assume VWs were fancy? Way too fancy for fleet sales. /posted the guy with a small, old and fancy Euro-taxi


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> I guess if all of us lived somewhere where most Chevy Cruzes have airbrushed front plates, we'd all assume VWs were fancy? Way too fancy for fleet sales. /posted the guy with a small, old and fancy Euro-taxi


Interesting, where exactly did I exclude Jettas from the Enterprise fleet sale in my post?


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> Are you are actually surprised that people do or don't like a car based on image? I've owned Jettas and I don't hate the way the Cruze looks, but you can't ignore that to many people the image they portray is that the owner is a 20 year old female or got a good deal at the last enterprise fleet sale.


I am surprised when the person won't even look at the content or step inside the showroom and look at what it has to offer or what it would cost. I might prefer a VW because of it's image (I've owned enough that I am over it) but I would give the others with the same qualities and in the same price range a chance. Worst case is the person wastes an hour on a $30k purchase.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> I am surprised when the person won't even look at the content or step inside the showroom and look at what it has to offer or what it would cost. I might prefer a VW because of it's image (I've owned enough that I am over it) but I would give the others with the same qualities and in the same price range a chance. Worst case is the person wastes an hour on a $30k purchase.


Valid point, it doesn't change that image is important to many people so it shouldn't be surprising that people judge cars based on the image they may portray. This forum is full of judgements of what owners must be like based on vehicles. I drove around a cherokee with a smiley face spray painted on the drivers door for about 2 years and it was 3 different colors on top of that, I like station wagons but have no kids (do use it for dogs and bikes though), and one of my cars has rattle can gold wheels since I thought it would be "neat", image is not how I car shop but I still understand that people do use it. And there is nothing wrong with them doing so, their huge investment. Your judgement of them isn't really any less douchey. 

A coworkers (now) wife had a cruze, I've been in it I don't need to go visit a showroom to check out a car I have no plans to buy whether I Was shopping or not since it doesn't fit my needs. I got excited about the pics of the cruze hatch and instantly checked cargo space, doesn't work for me, I didn't dismiss it because it was a cruze and the image some may have of it.

Anyway on the way home:

only 2 chevy cruze were spotted neither had front plate mounts, congrats to their dealers!

1 jetta no front plate holder ( see above )

2 altimas with those layered mirror front plates, one redskins one pink something couldn't read

1 grand am with an airbrushed plate

1 first gen kia with an airbrushed heart and 2 names, being driven by a 50+ year old woman lighting her next cigarette off the current one.

2 tahoes with the mirror plates as well

1 charger with an airbrushed skull and cross bones plate

1 fairly new kia sportage (I was behind it so couldn't see plate) with a first time sighting for me "scrub life" sticker with a heart and ekg/heart rate between it... also had that overly fancy stack of initials sticker on the other side.

Probably 30 WVU, and another 20 misc ford/chevy or random not so obvious and half dozen other ******* plates.

Oh and one saturn astra with something, wasn't a dealer tag but didn't get to read it, seemed mirror like.



This is a no plate area with few dealerships which mean people go to the surrounding front state plate dealers to get cars so they come pre drilled with a plate mount there already. I can totally understand why this would not be common to someone in say Ohio which is a front plate state, shocking I know people not breaking the law for decorations.... 

In the 8 miles I would say 5% were from out of state with a plate on, only 30% had nothing at all and the rest had some sort of dealer tag or vanity/decorative plate.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Consumer Reports presses U.S. to raise compensation for VW diesel owners*



> WASHINGTON -- Consumer Reports urged the Justice Department to hike compensation for 475,000 owners of Volkswagen diesel vehicles that skirt U.S. emisisions rules, and allow owners who opt for a fix the right to later reconsider the decision.
> 
> In comments filed on Friday on the proposed agreement, the magazine said the buyback offer undervalues retail prices and urged the use of values that "would lead to buyback offers for consumers that would be at least several hundred dollars higher."
> 
> ...


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

spockcat said:


> *Consumer Reports presses U.S. to raise compensation for VW diesel owners[/URL]*





> and allow owners who opt for a fix the right to later reconsider the decision.


I thought if you were going with the fix it made more sense to do nothing until they had the fix (and you understood what it was) and then decide then to either move forward with it do the buyback, or keep waiting until the end of the program (June 2019?) and do the buyback?

Any benefit to committing to the fix early?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> I thought if you were going with the fix it made more sense to do nothing until they had the fix (and you understood what it was) and then decide then to either move forward with it do the buyback, or keep waiting until the end of the program (June 2019?) and do the buyback?
> 
> Any benefit to committing to the fix early?


Yeah I don't quite get them wanting to change that part of it, actually I want them to stay out of it entirely but that's for another time (and has nothing to do with CR). 

If you want to wait it out, there is nothing I have seen that says you have to file in the immediate future and wait it out out a fix if you want the fix. If you decide after 16 months to not wait for a fix then file and say you want a buy back.

There is already a provision for if a fix does not pan out you can switch. 

Unless I learn otherwise about some sort of time limit on registering for a buyback vs a fix I'm holding out until I decide with my 2015.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> I thought if you were going with the fix it made more sense to do nothing until they had the fix (and you understood what it was) and then decide then to either move forward with it do the buyback, or keep waiting until the end of the program (June 2019?) and do the buyback?
> 
> Any benefit to committing to the fix early?


I'm sure a lot of people don't know they are supposed to be strategic about it. They will probably just see the option for a fix and say "Yeah, that sounds good," but they don't realize just how bad the fix is going to be, or how completely wrecked the resale value of the car is. IMO, the buyback should be available for the next 10 years, regardless if you take the fix or not. They could drop it, say it falls by 10% per year for the next 10 years, but if they really wanted to make it right, they should offer a guaranteed buyback at all times so the consumer isn't left to gamble on the effectiveness and quality of the fix as well as the resale value of their car.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> I'm sure a lot of people don't know they are supposed to be strategic about it.


There likely are, there are lots of TDI owners paying virtually no attention to this and will just wait until a letter shows up in the mail to get caught up on the matter.

But for that reason I'd rather see CR put their efforts into informing their readership vs get involved in a matter they aren't really a part of, possibly create delays, and increase the costs to all of the parties involved but them by dragging it out.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

They drag this crap out any longer, I'm gonna drive mine into a lake cause I'm tired of waiting to get an R. :banghead:


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

SixpackMk3 said:


> They drag this crap out any longer, I'm gonna drive mine into a lake cause I'm tired of waiting to get an R. :banghead:


Patience is a virtue


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

cpermd said:


> Patience is a virtue


Lol I've been waiting a year


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

SixpackMk3 said:


> Lol I've been waiting a year


How about contentedly driving her until Aug 2018 and then turning her in for a very good price at that time?
Do you not still like her?

I don't think there is any other car you can drive and get the deal this is offering.

And I drive more than 1050 miles per month so I will take the mileage hit and smile.

Then get my GTI or Civic Si hatchback.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

cpermd said:


> How about contentedly driving her until Aug 2018 and then turning her in for a very good price at that time?
> Do you not still like her?
> 
> I don't think there is any other car you can drive and get the deal this is offering.
> ...


Well I change cars often first of all. Second, I only bought a TDi because they hold their value better but got screwed out of that obviously lol. I drive 12 miles round trip for work, so I didn't buy for the mileage. It was for keeping value, and having a big 4 door sedan to put air ride and wheels on, which are already off the car. There is no way I will wait 2 more years to get an R. I'm very much bored with the car now and only have it because I literally can't get rid of it without losing my butt on it big time.


----------



## Rugrat Anklebiter (Dec 5, 2000)

cpermd said:


> How about contentedly driving her until Aug 2018 and then turning her in for a very good price at that time?
> Do you not still like her?
> 
> I don't think there is any other car you can drive and get the deal this is offering.
> ...


Although unlikely, you risk wrecking the vehicle between now and then and not getting the buyback. If I remember correctly, the claims site asked if the vehicle could move under it's own power.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

*It's official: The 3.0 TDIs are all cheaters also*



Yahoo Finance said:


> FRANKFURT (Reuters) - U.S. authorities have found *three* unapproved software programs in 3.0 liter diesel engines made by Volkswagen's (VOWG_p.DE) Audi (NSUG.DE) unit, German weekly Bild am Sonntag reported, without saying where it had obtained the information.
> 
> The software allowed the turbocharged direct injection (TDI) engines used in Audi's Q7, Porsche's Cayenne and VW's Touareg models to shut down emissions control systems after about 22 minutes, the paper said. Official methods to measure emissions usually last about 20 minutes, it added.
> 
> ...


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

AZGolf said:


> *It's official: The 3.0 TDIs are all cheaters also*[/url]


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

SixpackMk3 said:


> They drag this crap out any longer, I'm gonna drive mine into a lake cause I'm tired of waiting to get an R. :banghead:


VW would prefer that you drive your car into a lake and then go to the dealership to buy an R. They probably won't actually say this but it is the best solution to their problem. 



AZGolf said:


> *It's official: The 3.0 TDIs are all cheaters also*


 I thought we have known for almost a year that the 3.0's were also cheaters?

From Nov 2015 - 



> The EPA and the California Air Resources Board (CARB) on Monday served the VW Group with a violation notice for its 3.0-liter V6 TDI diesel engines. New testing has revealed these engines produce as much as nine times the legal limit of tailpipe pollutants.


http://mashable.com/2015/11/02/volkswagen-3-0-diesel-defeat-device/#ENWyqoCATuq3


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> I'm sure a lot of people don't know they are supposed to be strategic about it. They will probably just see the option for a fix and say "Yeah, that sounds good," but they don't realize just how bad the fix is going to be, or how completely wrecked the resale value of the car is. IMO, the buyback should be available for the next 10 years, regardless if you take the fix or not. They could drop it, say it falls by 10% per year for the next 10 years, but if they really wanted to make it right, they should offer a guaranteed buyback at all times so the consumer isn't left to gamble on the effectiveness and quality of the fix as well as the resale value of their car.


I disagree on the 10 years and can understand VW and regulators wanting to be done with the issue after a reasonable amount of time and I think almost 3 years from now is enough. Assuming they come out with a fix by June of 2017 the TDI owner will have almost 2 years to see the affects of it and what is does to resale values. Even if the fix doesn't come out for 2 years the TDI owner would still have almost a year after that to decide what to do.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> I disagree on the 10 years and can understand VW and regulators wanting to be done with the issue after a reasonable amount of time and I think almost 3 years from now is enough. Assuming they come out with a fix by June of 2017 the TDI owner will have almost 2 years to see the affects of it and what is does to resale values. Even if the fix doesn't come out for 2 years the TDI owner would still have almost a year after that to decide what to do.


I agree 10 years would be pointless, the idea is to get them off the road or fix them not just let people drive. There should be no reward for continuing to pollute even if you lost some value. 



Long term value I don't think is going to be a problem, heck in 10 years they may be worth more than without the scandal. Values are likely to go up when a bunch of them are off the road and people who still want them are now fighting for 100k cars not 480k cars.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> Long term value I don't think is going to be a problem, heck in 10 years they may be worth more than without the scandal. Values are likely to go up when a bunch of them are off the road and people who still want them are now fighting for 100k cars not 480k cars.


Possibly but I think if they can even come up with half decent fix (even if it lowers mpg and performance) they will fix and sell a lot of the buyback vehicles. Say the current value for a lot of them (retail) is $10k and the fix costs them $3k (seems pretty high), I would expect any decent amount they get for them above the $3k fix would be better than crushing them and these fixed vehicles being unloaded wouldn't help resale values for the rest of the owners.

If VW needed to sell 100k used TDI's in a reasonable amount of time I would expect they would unload them at low prices.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

dmorrow said:


> Possibly but I think if they can even come up with half decent fix (even if it lowers mpg and performance) they will fix and sell a lot of the buyback vehicles. Say the current value for a lot of them (retail) is $10k and the fix costs them $3k (seems pretty high), I would expect any decent amount they get for them above the $3k fix would be better than crushing them and these fixed vehicles being unloaded wouldn't help resale values for the rest of the owners.
> 
> If VW needed to sell 100k used TDI's in a reasonable amount of time I would expect they would unload them at low prices.


I could see returning ours and then buying it back later for cheap.....


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> Possibly but I think if they can even come up with half decent fix (even if it lowers mpg and performance) they will fix and sell a lot of the buyback vehicles. Say the current value for a lot of them (retail) is $10k and the fix costs them $3k (seems pretty high), I would expect any decent amount they get for them above the $3k fix would be better than crushing them and these fixed vehicles being unloaded wouldn't help resale values for the rest of the owners.
> 
> If VW needed to sell 100k used TDI's in a reasonable amount of time I would expect they would unload them at low prices.


Yes sorry was crossing my thoughts. This was if there was no fix and the cars bought back would be destroyed and the potential theory that long term market would be like "omg poison car". My opinion is long term if fixed cars don't return to the road values will go back up if not higher 5+ years down the road than they would have been since there will be much fewer to chose from and the true TDI guy will still want one.


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

atomicalex said:


> I could see returning ours and then buying it back later for cheap.....


With VW's "fix" and lower mpg/reliability?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> I could see returning ours and then buying it back later for cheap.....


I laughed at first and thought wow brilliant, but really would it be cheaper, for the average person not someone with multiple cars compared to just keeping it all along and taking the fix/cash?


Think about it.

You'd have to buy and maintain another car in the mean time that will depreciate, so when you go to get your old car back you'll lose some there.

They likely will be selling them back through VW dealers, maybe maybe not certified depending on the car so could be a win there, but if it is certified you;'ll pay it wont be free. So you will end up buying your car back for less than what you sold it to them for. plus that loss in depreciation on the car you had in the mean time, and you would have just gotten some cash to keep your car all along.


It probably would be cheapest to just keep it, get the fix and the check vs trading it in and hoping you can buy a fixed one later.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> I could see returning ours and then buying it back later for cheap.....


Possibly, since the buyback numbers are fixed and you might be talking about 2 years from now, as said above, not sure it would be worth the trouble to buy another car to have until your car is up for sale but if you buy another used car right, normally from an individual, 3 months later it isn't worth a lot less. Really just depends on what happens to the values. 

Would be interesting to see if people end up turning their cars in and buying a different TDI off the lot because of values. As an example - To make things simple, the buyback gives you a total of $17k for your 2015 but they have the same 2015 in equal condition on the lot, with the fix for $13k, you might essentially want to trade in your car (buyback) for the exact same car plus cash.



someguy123 said:


> With VW's "fix" and lower mpg/reliability?


Depends on how much lower mpg and reliability are and how cheap the cars are. I could see VW having trouble selling hundreds of thousands of used TDI's that have been "fixed" with reputation they currently have and VW just trying to unload them. Then, you buy one of these and for many states no one checks anything on the car so possibly just pull all of what they put on back off. I also think, like most EPA required systems that this will have to come with a warranty so that the fix doesn't turn into a nightmare that people want to immediately remove.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

The warranty on the "Fix" is already in the consent decree. 48,000 miles / 4 years after the fix is installed or to 120,000 miles (forgot how many years) since the car was new, which ever comes first. The good thing is that this is required to cover the engine, the HPFP, the turbo, whatever is involved in the "fix", and VW either has to come up with an easy way for the dealers to tell whether a DPF is clogged due to ash loading (which is considered normal - customer pay) or due to soot loading (which could be due to the fix or improper/adverse operation of the emission control system) and if they can't come up with such a way for the dealers to tell the difference, the DPF has to be included as well.

It's not bad ... particularly that the trouble-prone HPFP is included ... but it's not for a long enough period to interest us.

It's hard to predict what will happen to VW TDI resale values after all this blows over. If lots of people opt for buybacks and VW tries to fix all of them, the market is going to be flooded, which will depress resale values. I doubt VW will try to fix all of them. Supposedly the dealers will be able to bid on cars that they want to fix and resell. This will create something of a natural market for them. The good ones - late models with low mileage - would be desirable. Anything old, or anything high mileage, or anything with body damage, or anything non-stock that would require expensive repairs to put back ... is headed for the shredder.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Why did they even bother with such a small amount?

*VW fined $5.5 million by Italy over emissions results*



> ROME -- Italy's anti-trust agency said on Monday it had fined Volkswagen Group 5 million euros ($5.54 million) for misinforming car buyers about diesel emissions results.
> 
> The Italian watchdog said it would impose the highest fine in its power on VW Group, which it said had marketed diesel-powered cars that had been tested for polluting emissions using a software that gave artificially low results.
> 
> Europe's largest automaker is caught up in its biggest-ever corporate scandal and faces criminal investigations in the U.S., South Korea and elsewhere over claims it cheated.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

spockcat said:


> Why did they even bother with such a small amount?
> 
> *VW fined $5.5 million by Italy over emissions results*



Maybe it took a clerk an afternoon to fill out the paperwork so maybe not a bad days work. VW is probably happy to pay it and it is probably pocket change to them.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

spockcat said:


> Why did they even bother with such a small amount?
> 
> *VW fined $5.5 million by Italy over emissions results*


Surprised Italy cares to begin w/ . 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

spockcat said:


> Why did they even bother with such a small amount?
> 
> *VW fined $5.5 million by Italy over emissions results*


Because in Europe the difference was pretty slight since they have different allowances for gas vs. diesel. For them it's apparently just a software patch.


----------



## greasey (Jul 7, 2016)

spockcat said:


> Why did they even bother with such a small amount?
> 
> *VW fined $5.5 million by Italy over emissions results*


It says right in the article quoted, that it's the highest fine they could impose. Large punitive damages to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars are an almost uniquely American phenomenon, in any case.


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

greasey said:


> It says right in the article quoted, that it's the highest fine they could impose. Large punitive damages to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars are an almost uniquely American phenomenon, in any case.


Haha I was gonna say the same thing.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

2ohgti said:


> Surprised Italy cares to begin w/ .
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Italy needs a new yacht.


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

dmorrow said:


> VW would prefer that you drive your car into a lake and then go to the dealership to buy an R. They probably won't actually say this but it is the best solution to their problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think the big deal is that while VW came right out and admitted guilt with the 2.0 they didn't admit anything about the 3.0 even if the EPA knew about it. 

I guess this is the formal allegation being levied on VW. I guess this will force them to admit guilt or fight in court. 

Another guess is this is to pressure VW into doing the right thing for the 3.0 owners.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

Wonder how it's going to work with what accessories/options you need to return the car with. 

IE I return the car with a beat set of classix from my MKV instead of the stock Porto's.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Sump said:


> Wonder how it's going to work with what accessories/options you need to return the car with.
> 
> IE I return the car with a beat set of classix from my MKV instead of the stock Porto's.


I'm wondering the same thing.... I can use a milk crate for a drivers seat on my way to the dealer right?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

greasey said:


> Large punitive damages to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars are an almost uniquely American phenomenon, in any case.


Because our empathy causes us to feel the most pain. We deserve it.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> Because our empathy causes us to feel the most pain. We deserve it.


Actually the real reason is because of capitalism. In a tightly government regulated nation, the high cost of business and regulatory compliance means that there is little incentive to be innovative. With a lower regulation environment such as the US is... to some extent... you give up some regulatory restrictions in agreement to operate in a nation with among the highest civil lawsuit penalties anywhere. So as long as your business doesn't hurt anybody, you benefit from the lower costs of regulatory compliance. Once you do hurt people, the penalties are much higher.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> Actually the real reason is because of capitalism. In a tightly government regulated nation, the high cost of business and regulatory compliance means that there is little incentive to be innovative. With a lower regulation environment such as the US is... to some extent... you give up some regulatory restrictions in agreement to operate in a nation with among the highest civil lawsuit penalties anywhere. So as long as your business doesn't hurt anybody, you benefit from the lower costs of regulatory compliance. Once you do hurt people, the penalties are much higher.


What's funny is that is the exact argument pro-universal healthcare folks love to shoot down


----------



## Atl-Atl (Jun 7, 2006)

chris86vw said:


> The issue with the cruze is that you now are one of these people:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I havent ever seen one of these on a cruze. Maybe you are confusing it with the pt cruiser or HHR?


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

AJB said:


> I'm wondering the same thing.... I can use a milk crate for a drivers seat on my way to the dealer right?


Hmm yeah the documents do say the vehicle just has to get to dealer under it's own power I think?I'll roll up in something like this plus steering wheel. I should get started on a partout thread.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Anybody seen this nonsense? Apparently from the FTC? It would be nice if they would have read any of the details of the settlement!

https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/blog/vw-owners-get-facts

"It’s particularly important for you to get this information if you’re considering selling your car. Potential buyers may offer what sounds like a good deal, but it’s still less than you can get for a buyback under the FTC’s settlement with VW. Whether it’s a private purchaser or an unscrupulous dealer, those*buyers are just going to turn around and sell the car back to VW for more money through the court-approved buyback program."

Apparently they missed the detail about needing to own the car prior to 9/15/15...


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Your back-pedaling game is weak. And since dieselgate brought you back, you've been about as humorous as a bag of dead puppies.







(My YouTube embedding skills on VWVortex are weak.)


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

Rugrat Anklebiter said:


> Although unlikely, you risk wrecking the vehicle between now and then and not getting the buyback. If I remember correctly, the claims site asked if the vehicle could move under it's own power.


But is that true after Sept. 16th? I'm not clear on this.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

automobiliben said:


> Apparently they missed the detail about needing to own the car prior to 9/15/15...


I bought my car post 9/15/2015 and I still qualify. I also received the $1000 Goodwill Package. Just saying.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

.yuk. said:


> I bought my car post 9/15/2015 and I still qualify. I also received the $1000 Goodwill Package. Just saying.


Yeah. I messed up my dates, if you buy the car after 6/21/16 you get nothing. I would have to check the paperwork again, but it is very clear that you can't buy a car now and take advantage of the buyback...


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

I noticed the timeline on the vwcourtsettlement page changed. Now it only has one entry remaining for timeline- 'Fall 16' for Anticipated Rollout of Settlement program. Didn't there used to be a September date for a final court approval and an October date for program start?


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

bdc12 said:


> I noticed the timeline on the vwcourtsettlement page changed. Now it only has one entry remaining for timeline- 'Fall 16' for Anticipated Rollout of Settlement program. Didn't there used to be a September date for a final court approval and an October date for program start?


There used to be a lot of dates. I think the current date shows settlement finalized mid October and I believe Fall ends Dec. 20th. I see their dates for the rollout being in the Fall but to keep from being disappointed, if I was an owner I would plan on late Fall/Winter for a buyback of my car.

Many seem to keep believing the beginning of Nov., which is possible, but I think unlikely for most.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

automobiliben said:


> Yeah. I messed up my dates, if you buy the car after 6/21/16 you get nothing. I would have to check the paperwork again, but it is very clear that you can't buy a car now and take advantage of the buyback...


Are you sure?

That would mean if everyone sold their car tomorrow to even a spouse that it would be impossible for VW to meet the required buyback or fix amount.

The only restriction on buy back that I"m aware of is it can't be owned by a VW dealer, it can't have been issued a rebuilt title after sept 18th? 2015, and then the parts coming in under its own power going forward from the approval. 

Or are you saying your only recourse is the fix?


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

Sump said:


> Wonder how it's going to work with what accessories/options you need to return the car with.
> 
> IE I return the car with a beat set of classix from my MKV instead of the stock Porto's.


Mine will be returned with biolines wearing beat snow tires. I will keep the portos to use as snow rims for my new GTI.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

chris86vw said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> That would mean if everyone sold their car tomorrow to even a spouse that it would be impossible for VW to meet the required buyback or fix amount.
> 
> ...


I swore it said that, once I get to a computer I will look it up.

When everything was first released I looked into buying all the TDIs I could find where the Buyback was more than the current price.... Until I read the court papers and realized that wasn't possible...


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

VT1.8T said:


> Mine will be returned with biolines wearing beat snow tires. I will keep the portos to use as snow rims for my new GTI.


Only issue I see with the part out threads and oem pats is that where will be lots of stuff for-sale thereby lowering all the sales prices.


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

Sump said:


> Hmm yeah the documents do say the vehicle just has to get to dealer under it's own power I think?I'll roll up in something like this plus steering wheel. I should get started on a partout thread.


That's pretty much what I'm doing. Pulling out the rns 510, the high bcm, the oem hids, the 9wz bluetooth module and slapping on the old bent biolines I've had sitting in my garage for 5 years that are dry rotted and cracked all the way to the belts. Oh and the car has a bad turbo, failing DMF and a busted rear bumper.

It can all be VW's problem.


----------



## JitteryJoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Sump said:


> Hmm yeah the documents do say the vehicle just has to get to dealer under it's own power I think?I'll roll up in something like this plus steering wheel. I should get started on a partout thread.


Sounds like the best deal it to get rear-ended, get a check from your insurance company but either don't have it fixed or have it fixed "good enough", and then turn it in as is


----------



## romanl (Apr 2, 2010)

when will 2017 line up will be out?

i would consider getting GOLF Wagon 4motion if they cut me a sweet deal.
i love my 2010 GOLF TDI and would have kept it for another 5 years if this didn't happen.
but right now @ 6+ years old, w/ 150K+ miles on it, i can get close to $14K back for it, thats 60% into a new Subaru Outback !!!!

for next vehicle i need/want:
more ground clearance (pushed my GOLF as far as it would go and had to turn around on some dirt roads :laugh::laugh: )
AWD (i did fine w/ FWD, but I'm in the mountains every week, summer n winter.) no matter FWD, AWD or RWD i will still have dedicated SNOW tires. so AWD would be nice
Manual (Outback :thumbdown::thumb down: (new GOLF Alltrack or Wagon w/ 4motion :thumbup::thumbup:

so what are my options:

VW GOLF Wagon 4motion Price $$$?
VW GOLF Alltrack Price $$$?
Subaru Outback 2.5i ($24.5K for '17 model at local dealer, what a deal)

i also really like, but out of my price range *NEW, so maybe CPO?
Volve V60XC !!!!
BMW X1

any other suggestions?


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

AJB said:


> Only issue I see with the part out threads and oem pats is that where will be lots of stuff for-sale thereby lowering all the sales prices.


Yeah that'll probably happen, just looking to see how I can recoup the few 'mods' we've done which was clear bra and tint. And my GTI would look good on the Portos


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

AJB said:


> Only issue I see with the part out threads and oem pats is that where will be lots of stuff for-sale thereby lowering all the sales prices.


I think the number of people interested in removing parts from their car to sell them second hand before they sell their car to VW is extremely limited. Net amount for putting wheels and tires on a VW and selling the originals on Craigslist is what?


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

AJB said:


> Only issue I see with the part out threads and oem pats is that where will be lots of stuff for-sale thereby lowering all the sales prices.


I am not going to be selling any parts. Just keeping the OEM 17's to use as snows on new GTI. But you are probably right.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

romanl said:


> when will 2017 line up will be out?
> 
> i would consider getting GOLF Wagon 4motion if they cut me a sweet deal.
> i love my 2010 GOLF TDI and would have kept it for another 5 years if this didn't happen.
> ...


 GTI"s are arriving soon. My dealer will have a 17 SE just as I want the first week of September. Alltracks are a bit out and will be automatic to start


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

so what happens when i go to sell the car back and they're like "hey buddy this car didn't come on steelies with no radio or airbags"


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

benjaminobscene said:


> so what happens when i go to sell the car back and they're like "hey buddy this car didn't come on steelies with no radio or airbags"


You find out and let us all know!

😁


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

The ones most happy with the VW scandal - 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/lawyers-seek-332-5-million-fees-costs-volkswagen-145451632--finance.html



> *Volkswagen plaintiffs' lawyers to seek up to $332.5 million in fees, costs*
> 
> Plaintiffs' lawyers will seek up to $332.5 million in fees and costs for their work in a $10 billion settlement over claims Volkswagen AG outfitted vehicles with software to cheat on emissions testing, according to a court filing.
> 
> ...


I realize there are other costs like travel, paper and pens but at $1,000 an hour $332 million would mean 332,000 hours of billable work. Unclear to me why 25% of any class action settlement is a reasonable way to figure out what the lawyers should get.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> I realize there are other costs like travel, paper and pens but at $1,000 an hour $332 million would mean 332,000 hours of billable work. Unclear to me why 25% of any class action settlement is a reasonable way to figure out what the lawyers should get.


There's just certain classes of jobs where they're used to getting a percentage. Sales is the most common, but obviously legal is too. I have been stunned in real estate where a realtor still manages to pull a 3% commission on a $4 million home that certainly didn't cost them 20x as much to get listed as a $200k home, but there they are, pocketing 20x as much money because the commission is a percentage. That said, I've known a few wealthy people who refuse to pay full commission to list their luxury homes for just that reason.


----------



## romanl (Apr 2, 2010)

romanl said:


> when will 2017 line up will be out?
> 
> i would consider getting GOLF Wagon 4motion if they cut me a sweet deal.
> i love my 2010 GOLF TDI and would have kept it for another 5 years if this didn't happen.
> ...



UNBELIEVABLE!!!!! 
After typing up above message i ran some errands. 
Its like my Car is mad at me for saying ill sell it
TURBO just went. Loss of power and high pitched noise at throttle input. (Called my shop to confirm). ($2k job roughly)

I am now waiting for AAA to tow me hone 8 miles. Car can still drive but im saving it for "driving into the dealership under its own power" as soon as they allow me. 

I guess im going car shopping. 
Dont want to throw $2k away if i can get atound it. 
I can manage with using g/f's car for next month ir two. 

What a crappy situation


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

romanl said:


> UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!
> After typing up above message i ran some errands.
> Its like my Car is mad at me for saying ill sell it
> TURBO just went. Loss of power and high pitched noise at throttle input. (Called my shop to confirm). ($2k job roughly)
> ...


But VWs are known for their reliability!  :laugh:

You should buy another. Especially one with a turbo.


----------



## romanl (Apr 2, 2010)

spockcat said:


> But VWs are known for their reliability!  :laugh:
> 
> You should buy another. Especially one with a turbo.


150,000 easy trouble free miles id say thats pretty good 
Turbos go on all cars so with my mileage im not upset


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Turns out my company was hired by the court to monitor the VW claim process. :laugh:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

.yuk. said:


> Turns out my company was hired by the court to monitor the VW claim process. :laugh:


I realize it's going to take years to complete, but I'm curious how many claims actually result. We keep hearing it's a half million cars, but I wonder how many people will actually participate. Maybe as few as 300,000? I guess we'll find out in 2019 or 2020 what the final figure ends up being.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

AZGolf said:


> I realize it's going to take years to complete, but I'm curious how many claims actually result. We keep hearing it's a half million cars, but I wonder how many people will actually participate. Maybe as few as 300,000? I guess we'll find out in 2019 or 2020 what the final figure ends up being.


If they miss the 85% 'bought back and fixed' number - it's costs them roughly $100,000,000 per 4000 cars. Or $25,000 a car... While that is more than the average buyback cost - it comes with no other monies to pay (like supporting the insane warranty on fixed cars for the next ten years). 

So I doubt VW would care much... they are still going to pay roughly the same in the end I think. 

However, i can't see someone not wanting a payment of $5100+ against no real deficit (based on the EPA requiring the fix to have performance equal to the advertised performance from the first tests WITH the cheat device)... if they love the car so much, and the fix proves to be okay (remembering that you have 2 years to wait and see), and THEN getting a 10 year/120,000 mile Emission, Turbo, ECM, longblock, DPF, and Exhaust warranty isn't that bad... even if you lose 3-4 mpg (which is what consumer reports got when they tricked the cars into thinking they were in test mode and compared).


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> I realize it's going to take years to complete, but I'm curious how many claims actually result. We keep hearing it's a half million cars, but I wonder how many people will actually participate. Maybe as few as 300,000? I guess we'll find out in 2019 or 2020 what the final figure ends up being.


Well, it's already over 90,000. If that helps any.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

Made my tdi replacement decision. Was going to wait until buybacks started happening to buy a replacement. Had been wishing VW would offer tdi owner specific incentives. However I stumbled upon a 16 SE manual with PP, LP and DCC for a legit $6,000 off of sticker before ttl. That was a real incentive, so since the TDI is paid off, I made the purchase. I will have to make a few regular payments then I will take the $21k buyback and pay down the majority of the loan, leaving the balance at $6k. A new GTI for $6k is a pretty sweet deal to me.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

VT1.8T said:


> Made my tdi replacement decision. Was going to wait until buybacks started happening to buy a replacement. Had been wishing VW would offer tdi owner specific incentives. However I stumbled upon a 16 SE manual with PP, LP and DCC for a legit $6,000 off of sticker before ttl. That was a real incentive, so since the TDI is paid off, I made the purchase. I will have to make a few regular payments then I will take the $21k buyback and pay down the majority of the loan, leaving the balance at $6k. A new GTI for $6k is a pretty sweet deal to me.


Probably a smart move. I think that once buybacks begin in earnest, VW dealers will see a big, sudden demand for new cars and they will probably not deal like they are today. They may even face a shortage of cars.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

spockcat said:


> Probably a smart move. I think that once buybacks begin in earnest, VW dealers will see a big, sudden demand for new cars and they will probably not deal like they are today. They may even face a shortage of cars.



Agreed. It took a quote from a local dealer on a 17 that he is getting the first week of September to persuade me to look at 16's. He said he was being very generous with taking $1,250 off the sticker price. Once buybacks begin they will be in the early part of the MY17 run.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

VT1.8T said:


> A new GTI for $6k is a pretty sweet deal to me.


That is fantastic :thumbup::laugh:


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

spockcat said:


> Probably a smart move. I think that once buybacks begin in earnest, VW dealers will see a big, sudden demand for new cars and they will probably not deal like they are today. They may even face a shortage of cars.


You may be right. Time will tell.

If that's the case, then I probably won't buy another VW.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

Silly_me said:


> That is fantastic :thumbup::laugh:


:beer:

Timing just happened to be perfect for us. A fully optioned 2011 TDi with a bit under normal mileage and paid off. Seem to be in the buyback sweet spot.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

biturbowagon said:


> You may be right. Time will tell.
> 
> If that's the case, then I probably won't buy another VW.


I think there will be an initial rush of people that want to trade their cars (buyback) in for another VW but it will eventually die down so you may want to see what kind of deal you can get and possibly decide to hold off.

Then, reality is you are getting rid of a car and can get another from them or go somewhere else and this will keep prices from getting too high.

Buying one early also comes with costs.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

I just want my VW money and GTFO :laugh:


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

dmorrow said:


> I think there will be an initial rush of people that want to trade their cars (buyback) in for another VW but it will eventually die down so you may want to see what kind of deal you can get and possibly decide to hold off.
> 
> Then, reality is you are getting rid of a car and can get another from them or go somewhere else and this will keep prices from getting too high.
> 
> Buying one early also comes with costs.


I agree. 

As long as there is no downside to holding onto the car -- my mileage is likely to be under 1K/month -- I might as well hold onto it for the time being. I want to have the car bought back, but I am not in a rush to do so. I might as well hold off on the new car depreciation for as long as is practical. Plus I want to see what else is released in the meantime. The Honda Civic hatchback has caught my attention….


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

phil123 said:


> I just want my VW money and GTFO :laugh:


Same here! There's no chance in hell VW will get a penny of the payout back from me.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

So VW is having the model end year deals now, so when a buyback rolls out I won't be able to afford a 16' Passat R-Line and I'll be forced to go buy a Volt.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

*Excluded form the class if car is totaled between June and September 2016*

That was some interesting fine print in the VW literature that came on Saturday, namely, if the car was totalled after the class action date of September 2015, then you get the full amount in a buyback as per paragraph 19 that would apply to anyone that opted for the buyback. However, the only exception is if the car is totalled between mid June 2016 and mid September 2016 (the official 'opt out' date) then the owner is EXCLUDED from the buyback (actually excluded from the class action in general) and must sue VW individually if they want anything.

WTF?!?!?

Some texting inattentive clown plows into me and totals my car, and I'm EXCLUDED?!!!!

On the other hand, I suppose if that means that if one deliberately totals the car AFTER the exclusion date they still get the full buyback, so it seems there's a loophole for unscrupulous types to take advantage of it. But when it's withheld because of no fault of my own, I'd be REALLY PISSED.

VW. Gaah.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

PnZrFsT said:


> Same here! There's no chance in hell VW will get a penny of the payout back from me.




Agreed!


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> That was some interesting fine print in the VW literature that came on Saturday, namely, if the car was totalled after the class action date of September 2015, then you get the full amount in a buyback as per paragraph 19 that would apply to anyone that opted for the buyback. However, the only exception is if the car is totalled between mid June 2016 and mid September 2016 (the official 'opt out' date) then the owner is EXCLUDED from the buyback (actually excluded from the class action in general) and must sue VW individually if they want anything.
> 
> WTF?!?!?
> 
> ...


For the part in bold I think you could also go after the clown as you have a case for what the car was actually worth before he hit you. Similar to having a car with aftermarket paint or wheels, or anything custom that makes it's value higher than book value.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

dmorrow said:


> For the part in bold I think you could also go after the clown as you have a case for what the car was actually worth before he hit you. Similar to having a car with aftermarket paint or wheels, or anything custom that makes it's value higher than book value.


OK, I hadn't thought of that, so assuming the clown has enough insurance to cover the loss, it means it's just more of a PITA than if it happened after September 16th.

After that I can crash it on my own to my heart's content and still get reimbursed for the full amount. Still, there's something wrong with that concept . . .


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

T5 Dave said:


> assuming the clown has enough insurance to cover the loss


The insurance company is not going to agree with you on the value of the car. There were others in this thread trying to get gap insurance to cover the 'value' the court settlement put into the car and their agents told them to pound sand.

Vehicle value != lawsuit payout.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Silly_me said:


> The insurance company is not going to agree with you on the value of the car. There were others in this thread trying to get gap insurance to cover the 'value' the court settlement put into the car and their agents told them to pound sand.
> 
> Vehicle value != lawsuit payout.


You are possibly correct on the end result but trying to go out and buy insurance from your agent on a car for far more than book value is completely different than trying to get reimbursed for the full value of your car after another driver totals your car.

Similar to putting a $10k stereo in a $500 car, no one will insure the car for $10,500 but you have a pretty good case for getting far more than $500 from the insurance company/person that totals your car.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

So if I get hit post 9/15/16 and the car is totaled, VW is still going to buy it back? That right?


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

.yuk. said:


> So if I get hit post 9/15/16 and the car is totaled, VW is still going to buy it back? That right?


Some reading for you - https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/ 

*Who is excluded from participating in the Class Action Settlement?*
The following entities and individuals are excluded from the class:

Owners who acquired ownership of their Volkswagen or Audi 2.0-liter TDI vehicles after September 18, 2015, and transfer title before participating in the Settlements;
Lessees of a Volkswagen or Audi 2.0-liter TDI vehicle that is leased from a leasing company other than Volkswagen Credit, Inc. or Audi Financial Services;
Owners whose Volkswagen or Audi 2.0-liter TDI vehicle *(1) could not be driven under the power of its own 2.0-liter TDI engine on June 28, 2016, or (2) had a branded title of assembled, dismantled, flood, junk, rebuilt, reconstructed, or salvage on September 18, 2015, and was acquired from a junkyard or salvage yard after September 18, 2015;*


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> Some reading for you - https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/
> 
> *Who is excluded from participating in the Class Action Settlement?*
> The following entities and individuals are excluded from the class:
> ...


So if I read this correctly, and they don't have some other way to lawyer-ize things and take the buyback away...

We owned the car prior to 9/18/15... check.
The car ran/drove fine on 7/28/16... check.
Did not have a salvaged title on 9/18/15 AND was not bought from a junkyard after 9/18/15... check.

So should that mean that even if the car now gets totaled post 8/15/16.... up till the buyback date, that I will still get the full amount?
I am not sure how that could be the case, especially if the car is totaled and insurance makes a payout.

Even with your above post, I don't feel I have a good explanation of what my payout would really be.
I mean... why would VW payout $20k if the car was totaled and insurance took the car/paid out the $20k loan?
IMO, it seems like at most we would be getting ONLY the $7k restitution payment.

The above makes me think of this hypothetical.
We owe $20k on the car.
It gets totaled.
Insurance pays off the loan.
I buy back the car for say... $3k.
I put $2k back into the car to allow it to be driven onto the dealer lot for buyback.

then i have an ~$5k nearly totaled 2013 JSW TDI... i met all the above ownership items. and while salvaged NOW, it was not salvaged prior to 9/18/15... so both criteria on item 2 are not met, so not excluded.
i just dont see how VW really going to give me the full $27k?

if VW is REALLY paying out the full $27k even on a car that got salvaged AFTER the dates etc... then honestly that sounds like the absolute BEST option to happen.
total car, ins pays off loan, buy back for cheap, put together a cheap ass fix, and park the car till the buyback date.

^^^ if that is real, then sounds like everyones best option is really to just keep driving their cars till the last possible turn in date.
if the car comes out unscathed, great you get depreciation free driving for months/years.
if the car gets totaled, buyback and profit.


----------



## svb (Mar 27, 2009)

I'm a lawyer and I can't argue with the above reading of the terms. Look at it this way: VW is going to give you $27k for your car, right? They are out this money either way, whether you have paid your car off or whether you have a loan on it. So if in the meantime, insurance totals your car and thus pays off your loan, they don't care about whatever your insurance pays you. If your car meets the terms of the buyback, then they owe you $27k.

If you're able to finagle $22k or whatever out of your insurance company between now and then and the car can still be driven in, that's your business.


----------



## terabitdan (Aug 16, 2016)

If I read the terms correctly there is no requirement to drive the vehicle into the dealership, only that the car had to be operable as of June 28th, 2016. So if the engine blows between now and then, it's still eligible. 

However if the car is totaled the Insurance company owns the vehicle, and we would only be eligible for the restitution payment, see note 3 on page 7. "An Eligible Owner whose Eligible Vehicle is totaled after the opt-out deadline will receive the Owner Restitution Payment, but no Vehicle Value."

Just as interesting, VW agreed to pay up to 130% of the buyout to pay off a loan. What's to stop someone from refinancing to take advantage of the extra 30% payout? So instead of a $15,000 payout, it's $19,500?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

terabitdan said:


> If I read the terms correctly there is no requirement to drive the vehicle into the dealership, only that the car had to be operable as of June 28th, 2016. So if the engine blows between now and then, it's still eligible.
> 
> However if the car is totaled the Insurance company owns the vehicle, and we would only be eligible for the restitution payment, see note 3 on page 7. "An Eligible Owner whose Eligible Vehicle is totaled after the opt-out deadline will receive the Owner Restitution Payment, but no Vehicle Value."
> 
> ...


.

nevermind, i found the info i needed once i got home, and posted below.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

Which vehicles are included in the Settlements?
The following 2.0-liter TDI engine vehicles are included and may be eligible*:

*To be eligible, a vehicle must be Operable. Additional requirements regarding the vehicle’s title also apply.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

phil123 said:


> Which vehicles are included in the Settlements?
> The following 2.0-liter TDI engine vehicles are included and may be eligible*:
> 
> *To be eligible, a vehicle must be Operable. Additional requirements regarding the vehicle’s title also apply.



edit:
i just found that this line "*To be eligible, a vehicle must be Operable. Additional requirements regarding the vehicle’s title also apply" is from the website.
i have read it, but its not really relevant... since its just an open statement, it doesnt describe what has been agreed to, and will be enforced.

what is relevant is the descriptions in the court docs that explain the exact scenarios that include/exclude the vehicle, owner, title status combinations.

as read, i am not seeing any issues for me if the car is totaled, and i perform a buyout from the insurance company... since even though the title would switch from clean to salvage my ownership status would never have been surrendered... thus i was owner throughout, and therefore, the buyback should apply.

the more i read, the clearer it is.

the only snag i can see if something happens to peoples cars in the next month or so, before people get either locked in as included/excluded of the class action group.

(from the long form notification doc)
_11. Can I receive benefits if my car was totaled after September 18, 2015?
If you owned an Eligible Vehicle that was functioning and operable as of September 18, 2015, but was subsequently totaled (and the title was transferred to an insurance company), you will be eligible for benefits under the Class Action Settlement as described in this notice at Question 19. *There is one exception: if your car is totaled after June 28, 2016, but before the opt-out date (September 16, 2016),* you are excluded from the settlement class and reserve your rights and claims against the Volkswagen entities._

to me the red text is key. ownership/title transfer. if you dont transfer the title away, and you can drive the car onto the lot, then you should be fine.


----------



## ivanomusic (Aug 16, 2016)

yikes


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

terabitdan said:


> If I read the terms correctly there is no requirement to drive the vehicle into the dealership, only that the car had to be operable as of June 28th, 2016. So if the engine blows between now and then, it's still eligible.
> 
> However if the car is totaled the Insurance company owns the vehicle, and we would only be eligible for the restitution payment, see note 3 on page 7. "An Eligible Owner whose Eligible Vehicle is totaled after the opt-out deadline will receive the Owner Restitution Payment, but no Vehicle Value."
> 
> ...



found the top part in the append A of the DOJ decree.
2.10 “Operable” means that a vehicle so described can be driven under its own 2.0-liter TDI engine power. A vehicle is not Operable if it had a branded title of “Assembled,” “Dismantled,” “Flood,” “Junk,” “Rebuilt,” “Reconstructed,” or “Salvaged” as of September 18, 2015, and was acquired by any person or entity from a junkyard or salvaged after September 18, 2015.

again in the appended consumer settlement.
2.50. “Operable” means a vehicle that can be driven under its own 2.0-liter TDI engine power. A vehicle is not Operable if it had a Branded Title of Assembled, Dismantled, Flood, Junk, Rebuilt, Reconstructed, or Salvaged on September 18, 2015, and was acquired by any person or entity from a junkyard or salvage yard after September 18, 2015.

and in FTC consent.
II. “Operable” means that the vehicle so described can be driven under its own 2.0-liter TDI engine power. A vehicle is not Operable if it had a branded title of “Assembled,” “Dismantled,” “Flood,” “Junk,” “Rebuilt,” “Reconstructed,” or “Salvaged” on September 18, 2015, and was acquired by any person or entity from a junkyard or salvage yard after September 18, 2015.


the 130% thing is interesting as well. i will need to read through that bit a little more.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Not sure I believe this just yet. Only reason I would want to turn mine back in asap is to avoid getting hit on I-95 (daily commute) and the car being a tin can. 

I read all this, and I get that it mostly says you cannot have a "Salvage" title prior to 9/18 and you cannot go buy junk cars from the yard post 9/18 to profit. Not seeing the info on what happens if you're car get's totaled say in October of this year. Not clear, cut language at least. 

Hmm


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

For the idea of having the car totaled and buying it back from insurance, don't they take the title when they give you the money for the car and then for you to get it back from them you would have to buy it, essentially "acquiring it" (buying it) after the time period, which makes you ineligible for the VW buyback?


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

dmorrow said:


> For the idea of having the car totaled and buying it back from insurance, don't they take the title when they give you the money for the car and then for you to get it back from them you would have to buy it, essentially "acquiring it" (buying it) after the time period, which makes you ineligible for the VW buyback?


For the ones I have done in WA, no.
I had the title in my house so how can the insurance company take it, for me to have to get out back from them?

In both instances, the ins co just wrote me a smaller check. Title stayed with me, in my name the whole time. Now I never rebuilt either of those cars, so i did still have the original titles when I sold them for parts. Not 100% of that would fly everywhere.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW, U.S. hold talks to settle criminal probe over diesel emissions, report says*



> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen Group and the U.S. Justice Department have held preliminary settlement talks about resolving a criminal probe into the automaker's diesel emissions scandal, two sources briefed on the matter said.
> 
> Reuters reported in June that a criminal settlement could include a consent decree, an independent monitor overseeing the German automaker's conduct and significant yet-to-be determined fines for emissions violations.
> 
> ...


----------



## silver18 (Feb 20, 2013)

How do you explane this: my 2012 passat tdi has salvage title. I bought it in 2014 from a guy who bought it from auto auction in 2013, fixed it and sold it to me. It's confusing, am I eligible or not?

(1) could not be driven under the power of its own 2.0-liter TDI engine on June 28, 2016, 
or 
(2) had a branded title of assembled, dismantled, flood, junk, rebuilt, reconstructed, or salvage on September 18, 2015, and was acquired from a junkyard or salvage yard after September 18, 2015;

#1 does not apply to me, but #2: I did have branded title on sept 18th 2015, but the car was NOT acquired from a junkyard or salvage yard AFTER September 18, 2015.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

silver18 said:


> How do you explane this: my 2012 passat tdi has salvage title. I bought it in 2014 from a guy who bought it from auto auction in 2013, fixed it and sold it to me. It's confusing, am I eligible or not?
> 
> (1) could not be driven under the power of its own 2.0-liter TDI engine on June 28, 2016,
> or
> ...


IMO logically, number two doesnt apply either because of the AND statement.

your situation hits the first part of that lines criteria, but misses the second. that SHOULD mean you are ok.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

Just got this in the mail. First thing I've gotten in the mail about this diesel situation since the $1k gift cards.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

SixpackMk3 said:


> Just got this in the mail. First thing I've gotten in the mail about this diesel situation since the $1k gift cards.


Same, gimme that monies!!!


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

I still need to find my $500 Dealership Gift Card to blow...


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

dmorrow said:


> For the idea of having the car totaled and buying it back from insurance, don't they take the title when they give you the money for the car and then for you to get it back from them you would have to buy it, essentially "acquiring it" (buying it) after the time period, which makes you ineligible for the VW buyback?


They don't take the title physically, but they do brand/Savage your title. When the car is registered/title transferred, it will show salvaged. I read it as, you'd be buying it from a "Salvage Yard" (Not physically, but paper trail) because the car changes ownership the moment your insurance company cuts you the check.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

SixpackMk3 said:


> Just got this in the mail. First thing I've gotten in the mail about this diesel situation since the $1k gift cards.


Which was exactly what was supposed to happen...


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

I got 2 packets, one in my name and one in my wife's. I think she's technically the 1st name on the title but I've been handling all the website stuff. It's Exhibit 3 from the settlement website. The Long form notice. There's also a letter from Hinrich Woebcken. (seems like he's missing a vowel in there) with another wordy apology letter.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Yea, all of this is in the FTC consent. It gives timeframes and all. My company is working out the details on how we will audit these claims and when they officially begin. :thumbup:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

edit: found the answer by doing the convoluted maths in the chart :laugh:


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

SixpackMk3 said:


> Just got this in the mail. First thing I've gotten in the mail about this diesel situation since the $1k gift cards.


Should I be worried that I haven't received my snail mail packet? I registered on the online portal....but think they were supposed to have all those packets mailed within 10 days of 7/26 hearing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

I haven't received anything yet either. I registered online the first day the portal was up. I'm sure it will take a while for them all to get processed and sent out.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

I think it all depends on location, name, etc. I was one of the first to get the goodwill package also. Not sure how their mailing system works, but I'm sure you will get yours soon. :thumbup:


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

I received two of the packages a few days ago. Had a 2010 that the dealer took back after a couple of weeks and put me in a 2011. Sold it 15 months ago, and I still received two packages.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

I've actually only received one but have 2 cars, so funny that others with 1 car but 2 people on the title received two. Must just be a batch thing. I realized this morning the date on mine was the 16th but I was out of town and got a few days worth of mail on the 16th so not sure exactly when that first one arrived.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Bosch had key role in VW emissions fraud, lawyers claim*



> SAN FRANCISCO -- Robert Bosch began playing a key role in developing Volkswagen Group's emission-cheating technology as early as the late 1990s, lawyers for VW owners said in a U.S. court filing that includes detailed allegations against the German supplier.
> 
> Bosch was an "active participant in a massive, decade-long conspiracy with VW," the lawyers said.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Porsche drivers fume: Where's our VW diesel payout?*



> Volkswagen settled its diesel deception involving almost 500,000 U.S. automobiles, paying dearly to satisfy car owners affected by the emissions scandal.
> 
> What it hasn’t done is make whole its very best customers -- those who own its pricier brands, which nevertheless run on smog-spewing engines.
> 
> ...


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

I received my package yesterday. 

I have not yet registered for the buyback. (It's on my to-do list.) But I did receive the debit card and store credit card last year.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

related, but not quite...

when we bought this JSW TDI, we planned for the wife to keep it long term. because of tdi emissions stuff, hpfp, turbo system, dsg, etc... we bought a $2k extended warranty to 72/100k.
i directly and specifically asked for clarification from the finance guy selling me the plan.

"so this warranty starts @ 3yrs and goes out to 100k miles?" yes.
"if we decide to sell the car prior to 3 yrs, can we get a 100% full refund?" yes, the refund will only be prorated AFTER 3yrs. if you ask for a refund at 2 yrs, you will get all your $$ back.
"so to be clear, we can get a full refund at any time up until we reach 3 yrs when the factory warranty would expire?" yes. that is exactly right.

guess what?
he lied. surprise:banghead:

apparently the warranty started at day 1, and would have covered anything that the factory warranty might have denied.
and thus... the refund will NOT be a full refund, but will be a pro-rated refund which at this point is about -25% of the purchase price.

so the warranty company (and the dealership, i am sure) get to profit ($500) on something that was absolutely never used, never even knew it COULD be used yet... 
and they get to do so because the dealer lied directly to my face about it.

god i JUST love dealerships.

the lies are not just at the corporate level.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

Cooper said:


> I received two of the packages a few days ago. Had a 2010 that the dealer took back after a couple of weeks and put me in a 2011. Sold it 15 months ago, and I still received two packages.



How many people are on the title?


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

phil123 said:


> How many people are on the title?


this likely matters.

i signed up on the website but both my wife and I are on the title, so we received two mailers... one addressed to each of us.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

dunhamjr said:


> related, but not quite...
> 
> when we bought this JSW TDI, we planned for the wife to keep it long term. because of tdi emissions stuff, hpfp, turbo system, dsg, etc... we bought a $2k extended warranty to 72/100k.
> i directly and specifically asked for clarification from the finance guy selling me the plan.
> ...



It's always an upsell from the F&I guy - did you get anything in writing? They should have given you a warranty agreement which I'm sure you didn't read through as it was probably in legalese and you probably signed off on it at time of purchase - but yes I would have had the dealer guy sign off on what you were asking - in my line of work we have to get sign offs on everything...


----------



## Smigelski (Dec 9, 2008)

I got the packet in the mail regarding the scandal. I had a 2010 Golf TDI that I bought in 11/2009. I traded it in on my Subaru in 5/2012. I'm not eligible to get anything from the settlement, correct? I wasn't expecting to get anything, but it was strange that I got the packet in the mail.


----------



## Cooper (Sep 11, 2000)

phil123 said:


> How many people are on the title?


Only I was.

I traded it in at an Audi dealership for a low mileage Escape.

I was going to ask the friend that is GM at the dealership if the person that bought it still has it. The dealer offered me less than I was quoted at another dealer, and they were able to find someone in RI that deals in used German cars. The person bought it, and the dealer I got the Escape from was doing a pass-through sale of my JSW to him.

It was an early 2011 (August 2010) , and had 42,000 miles on it when I traded it in May 2015. I was told that the person will most likely drive it for several months then sell it in the fall. I wonder what he'll get as the buy-out plus settlement, if he still has it. Could make out very well.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Ricky Bobby said:


> It's always an upsell from the F&I guy - did you get anything in writing? They should have given you a warranty agreement which I'm sure you didn't read through as it was probably in legalese and you probably signed off on it at time of purchase - but yes I would have had the dealer guy sign off on what you were asking - in my line of work we have to get sign offs on everything...


nothing in writing from the FI guy.
yeah i got the contract, but the info on the signup sheet was minimal, more like sales literature.

my correction for this is that i will just never buy an extended warranty from the dealer at initial purchase of a new car.
i dont have time to read the full legal terms with my wife and two kids sitting there, and i am never going to trust the FI/sales guy across from me to ACTUALLY know AND tell me the truth.

fool me once...


----------



## fortyfive1911a1 (Aug 25, 2014)

jen_madcity said:


> Should I be worried that I haven't received my snail mail packet? I registered on the online portal....but think they were supposed to have all those packets mailed within 10 days of 7/26 hearing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The packet says that it is "preferred" that you register online versus mailing in the packet. It's an either/or thing.


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

fortyfive1911a1 said:


> The packet says that it is "preferred" that you register online versus mailing in the packet. It's an either/or thing.


Nope. Packet came yesterday. IIRC, they were supposed to snail mail to everyone in their database. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

jen_madcity said:


> Nope. Packet came yesterday. IIRC, they were supposed to snail mail to everyone in their database.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's just the longform notice from the website anyway, no real content in there.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

I got mine early last week, wife's arrived today. We only own the one car, both names on the title.


----------



## daunicorn (Apr 20, 2005)

Got my package today from them and email back on my pending transmission issue.


----------



## silver18 (Feb 20, 2013)

daunicorn said:


> Got my package today from them and email back on my pending transmission issue.


What is your transmission issue?


----------



## clintg60-16v (Dec 13, 2002)

Bought a '13 CPO Golf R. I have two car payments until the buyback, but I'll get virtually every payment on the TDI made back as equity. Plus I can keep its mileage low to not fall into the next mileage 'tier'.

Plus... "R".


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Since we Canadians are still waiting... and will be for another couple months to find out what's happening up here....

Is there an electronic version of this 'packet' somewhere that I could access? 

Mostly wondering if VW has an update as to the timelines for the 'fix'? Or are they still the same as the info on vwcourtsettlement.com? Gen 1's fix being entered Nov 11 to Jan?


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

It's the same info found on the website basically.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

E CODE said:


> Since we Canadians are still waiting... and will be for another couple months to find out what's happening up here....
> 
> Is there an electronic version of this 'packet' somewhere that I could access?
> 
> Mostly wondering if VW has an update as to the timelines for the 'fix'? Or are they still the same as the info on vwcourtsettlement.com? Gen 1's fix being entered Nov 11 to Jan?


The packet is this link:

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/PSC_Settlement_Agreement/Settlement%20Agreement/Exhibit%203%20-%20Long%20Form%20Notice.pdf


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

dunhamjr said:


> .
> 
> my correction for this is that i will just never buy an extended warranty from the dealer at initial purchase of a new car.
> *i dont have time to read the full legal terms with my wife and two kids sitting there*, and i am never going to trust the FI/sales guy across from me to ACTUALLY know AND tell me the truth.
> ...


Which is exactly the reason why they sell tire insurance, "extended warranty", gap coverage, VIN etching, "paint treatment", etc etc etc at POS - thats where they make the most money and know that the wife and kids are antsy and ready to be done and go home - things at POS are all 100% profit items for the most part - lesson learned...


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

spockcat said:


> *Bosch had key role in VW emissions fraud, lawyers claim*


Not surprised at all. But just like the takata air bags, the auto manufacturer is responsible for fixing the vehicles and problems. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Sump said:


> The packet is this link:
> 
> https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/PSC_Settlement_Agreement/Settlement%20Agreement/Exhibit%203%20-%20Long%20Form%20Notice.pdf


Thanks. I've poured over the court docs and appendixes... this is SO much easier to read.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Which is exactly the reason why they sell tire insurance, "extended warranty", gap coverage, VIN etching, "paint treatment", etc etc etc at POS - thats where they make the most money and know that the wife and kids are antsy and ready to be done and go home - things at POS are all 100% profit items for the most part - lesson learned...


yep and i really know better.
the problem is that i dont expect the people who are supposed to be the SME to lie to me when i ask them a direct, specific question.

and i really should know better about that as well.


----------



## Picklerfan (Jul 25, 2016)

E CODE said:


> Since we Canadians are still waiting... and will be for another couple months to find out what's happening up here....
> 
> Is there an electronic version of this 'packet' somewhere that I could access?
> 
> Mostly wondering if VW has an update as to the timelines for the 'fix'? Or are they still the same as the info on vwcourtsettlement.com? Gen 1's fix being entered Nov 11 to Jan?


I believe they are testing out the Gen 3's right now, but yeah the Gen 1 is the November date.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Funny some dealerships are still trying to sell TDIs.











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

2ohgti said:


> Funny some dealerships are still trying to sell TDIs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like a used car store, not a VW dealership. TDIs are perfectly legal to sell, but I sure wouldn't buy one right now. I presume you would still get the "fix" if/when it becomes available, but no $$$.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

bdc12 said:


> Looks like a used car store, not a VW dealership. TDIs are perfectly legal to sell, but I sure wouldn't buy one right now. I presume you would still get the "fix" if/when it becomes available, but no $$$.


It is a small non-VW dealership. Just not a desirable car to sell right now. 
Was actually looking for used 2.5 JSW, but they are hard to find. The only ones I could find were all auto. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

2ohgti said:


> Funny some dealerships are still trying to sell TDIs.


Non VW dealers can sell their cars back to VW, not sure why they would sell that for 9k when they can get probably about 16-17k for it in a few months (not bothering to do the mileage math. 

I'm torn on calling them to tell them they are being dumb or low balling them and picking up a third


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> Non VW dealers can sell their cars back to VW, not sure why they would sell that for 9k when they can get probably about 16-17k for it in a few months (not bothering to do the mileage math.
> 
> I'm torn on calling them to tell them they are being dumb or low balling them and picking up a third


Exactly-they are completely clueless. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> Non VW dealers can sell their cars back to VW, not sure why they would sell that for 9k when they can get probably about 16-17k for it in a few months (not bothering to do the mileage math.
> 
> I'm torn on calling them to tell them they are being dumb or low balling them and picking up a third


I was wondering whether there was anything in the legal settlement that excluded dealers? Additionally, we don't know whether they acquired the car after the settlement and thus wouldn't be eligible anyway.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Bosch calls VW owners' diesel-cheating claims in U.S. 'wild and unfounded*



> SAN FRANCISCO -- Robert Bosch rejected U.S. car owners' claims that 38 of its employees conspired with Volkswagen Group for a decade to develop technology that enabled diesel vehicles to evade pollution-control tests.
> 
> Bosch will defend itself against the "wild and unfounded" allegations made in a lawsuit in San Francisco, the German component manufacturer said in a federal court filing. Bosch also asked that the employees not be named in legal documents.
> 
> ...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> Additionally, we don't know whether they acquired the car after the settlement and thus wouldn't be eligible anyway.


There is no exclusion for that. VW has to fix or buy back 85% of the cars, the only exclusions of cars that don't qualify for this are those that are totaled. 

There is an exclusion if you sell your car you are no longer eligible for the previous owner compensation. If you possess the car, it wasn't rebuilt after whatever that date was, and it can get to the dealer under its own power you are entitled to the buy back. 





> Who is excluded from participating in the Class Action Settlement?
> 
> The following entities and individuals are excluded from the class:
> 
> ...



I can buy that car today and still get the settlement money.


----------



## Mr. Brown Pants (Aug 8, 2016)

chris86vw said:


> There is no exclusion for that. VW has to fix or buy back 85% of the cars, the only exclusions of cars that don't qualify for this are those that are totaled.
> 
> There is an exclusion if you sell your car you are no longer eligible for the previous owner compensation. If you possess the car, it wasn't rebuilt after whatever that date was, and it can get to the dealer under its own power you are entitled to the buy back.
> 
> I can buy that car today and still get the settlement money.





> Who is *excluded* from participating in the Class Action Settlement?
> 
> The following* entities and individuals* are *excluded* from the class:
> 
> Owners who *acquired ownership *of their Volkswagen or Audi 2.0-liter TDI vehicles after *September 18, 2015*


?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Mr. Brown Pants said:


> ?


? what?

There is clearly the word _*AND*_!!



> Owners who acquired ownership of their Volkswagen or Audi 2.0-liter TDI vehicles after September 18, 2015, *and* transfer title before participating in the Settlements;


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> Non VW dealers can sell their cars back to VW, not sure why they would sell that for 9k when they can get probably about 16-17k for it in a few months (not bothering to do the mileage math.


Only if they owned the car before September 18th, 2015. I doubt they've been sitting on this car for 11+ months, they picked it up at wholesale auction for $6k in the last 60 days probably.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> Only if they owned the car before September 18th, 2015. I doubt they've been sitting on this car for 11+ months, they picked it up at wholesale auction for $6k in the last 60 days probably.


You need to read it again.


Also the used car dealer next to my private workshop has been sitting on one for 11 months actually, he bought it at auction drove it around himself for a few weeks, scandal broke same week the CEL came on and dealer said it needed a DPF, he said I'll wait to see what happens.


----------



## Mr. Brown Pants (Aug 8, 2016)

chris86vw said:


> ? what?
> 
> There is clearly the word _*AND*_!!


So you would have a car without the title transferred? Would you then not be the owner technically, and the past owner still able to participate in the class?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Mr. Brown Pants said:


> So you would have a car without the title transferred? Would you then not be the owner technically, and the past owner still able to participate in the class?


They mean transfer the title to someone else, not transfer the title to you when you buy the car.

This is preventing two people from attempting to make a claim on the settlement under the provisions that allow some previous owners compensation.

If Bob bought the car on January 13th of 2016 and sold it to Tom on August 22nd 2016. Bob cannot claim anything in regards to the settlement but Tom can. Possibly the person who sold the car to Bob would also have some claim. This line is excluding only Bob, not the current vehicle owner.


----------



## Mr. Brown Pants (Aug 8, 2016)

chris86vw said:


> They mean transfer the title to someone else, not transfer the title to you when you buy the car.
> 
> This is preventing two people from attempting to make a claim on the settlement under the provisions that allow some previous owners compensation.
> 
> If Bob bought the car on January 13th of 2016 and sold it to Tom on August 22nd 2016. Bob cannot claim anything in regards to the settlement but Tom can. Possibly the person who sold the car to Bob would also have some claim. This line is excluding only Bob, not the current vehicle owner.



I interrupt it differently

the "and" implies that the transaction of purchase must be complete including title transferred into purchasers name before the Sept cut off date. 

This interruption would stop anyone buying the effected vehicles (begin well aware of the defect) in bulk and selling them back to VW at a profit. 

In your example neither have claim as both have purchased the car after the Sept. 2015 cut off date and would have completed the transfer of title as well.

I am sure this will come up and will be tested and we will see the out come. Right now its just conjecture.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Mr. Brown Pants said:


> I interrupt it differently


That isn't how this works.

As you can even see in that line it entitles the person to participate in the settlement having acquired it after sept 15th 2015.


The EPA and CARB don't care if VW has to pay, you are right there is nothing stopping someone from buying cars in bulk and profitting, unless you work for VW, a dealer or are related to the buyback as per the note above. There is no exclusion for people who happened to buy a car at the wrong (right? $$$  ) time and forcing them to keep driving a car that will not be repaired or taken off the road.

Even if you want to attempt to twist that exclusion into something it no way means you need to look at it in the context of the entire settlement, that will tell you what you think it means isn't possible.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Mr. Brown Pants said:


> In your example neither have claim as both have purchased the car after the Sept. 2015 cut off date and would have completed the transfer of title as well.


I bought my car post 9/15 (11/6) and my car is being bought back. I split the hush money with the previous owner. You need to do some additional reading. 

And I believe the dates of excluding you are from 6/26 or whatever until 9/16. That way people don't load up on vw's to sell back at a huge profit. :laugh:


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

.yuk. said:


> I bought my car post 9/15 (11/6) and my car is being bought back. I split the hush money with the previous owner. You need to do some additional reading.
> 
> And I believe the dates of excluding you are from 6/26 or whatever until 9/16. That way people don't load up on vw's to sell back at a huge profit. :laugh:


From reading the above I can't tell for sure how the "and" applies. How do you know your car that you bought after 9/15 is ok for the buyback?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

.yuk. said:


> And I believe the dates of excluding you are from 6/26 or whatever until 9/16. That way people don't load up on vw's to sell back at a huge profit. :laugh:


It is excluding the previous owner not the person who acquired it.

You can load up. VW has to buy them back or fix them regardless of who owns them or when they bought it. These exclusions are limiting people so that 4 people don't attempt to come and make a claim. If you hold a title sometime next january that isn't a rebuilt post sept 2015, you can sell the car back or get it fixed.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

So updates for us - packet to the opposite of some of you who received zero - I got 3 of them... 3 of the same darn thing!?!?! :facepalm:

And we've ordered the JSW replacement - 2017 Subaru Forester Touring 2.5i due mid Sept.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

dmorrow said:


> From reading the above I can't tell for sure how the "and" applies. How do you know your car that you bought after 9/15 is ok for the buyback?


Because it says so. In the information packet sent in the mail as well as on the settle website. I cannot sell it prior to 9/16 or whatever the exact date is or I'm out of luck. 

Plus I went ahead and filed a claim already. I didn't hit "submit" yet, but I'm pretty sure I can read. 

"Because a car may have more than one owner during the relevant period, for
those cars that changed hands after September 18, 2015 and during the claims
period, the settlement equitably divides the Owner Restitution payment
approximately 50/50 between the owner as of September 18, 2015 who later sold
the car (“Eligible Seller”) and the current owner (“Eligible Owner”). To qualify for
an Eligible Seller restitution payment, you will have at least 45 days from the entry
of the Preliminary Approval Order to identify yourself. If preliminary approval is
granted by the Court on July 26, 2016 (the date of the preliminary approval
hearing), you will have until September 16, 2016, to identify yourself. Note that if
you sell your car after June 28, 2016, you will not be an Eligible Seller (or an Eligible
Owner)."


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Some 'leaked' info about the dealer bail out....

http://news.trust.org/item/20160825182821-r8e1e



> WASHINGTON, Aug 25 (Reuters) - Volkswagen AG has agreed to spend more than $1.2 billion to compensate its 650 U.S. dealers for their losses from the German automaker's diesel emissions scandal, two sources briefed on the matter said on Thursday.
> 
> The company and a lawyer for VW dealers announced a tentative settlement at a court hearing in San Francisco, but declined to disclose the amount. The settlement, which followed talks that began in May, came as a judge ordered VW to move quickly to decide whether to fix or buy back 85,000 3.0 liter luxury vehicles with polluting engines.
> 
> ...


Wait, did he just say UN fixable?? Interesting choice of words there, as we were under the impression that fixes for all 2.0L were at least possible... does this mean that Gen1 or 2 are unfixable? Considering Gen3's fix is being tested right now, I'd be inclined to guess that, if this was a true statement, that Gen1's are not fixable...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

E CODE said:


> does this mean that Gen1 or 2 are unfixable?


No it means the lawyer for the dealers like you me and everyone else in the general public has no idea what the status is.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

chris86vw said:


> No it means the lawyer for the dealers like you me and everyone else in the general public has no idea what the status is.


Wait, did you just admit you don't know something?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

E CODE said:


> Wait, did he just say UN fixable?? Interesting choice of words there, as we were under the impression that fixes for all 2.0L were at least possible... does this mean that Gen1 or 2 are unfixable? Considering Gen3's fix is being tested right now, I'd be inclined to guess that, if this was a true statement, that Gen1's are not fixable...


I'm seeing a similar line a reporting this morning, too:

*VW Fixes For Diesel Cars Will Fall Short -- WSJ*



Morningstar / WSJ said:


> Most of Volkswagen AG's diesel-powered vehicles on U.S. roads can't be retrofitted to fully comply with air-pollution regulations, though its larger vehicles likely can, an attorney for the company said on Thursday.
> 
> Robert Giuffra also told a U.S. court that Volkswagen is close to offering regulators a fix for the larger vehicles, which he said have better emissions controls than the about 475,000 2-liter vehicles covered by a $15 billion settlement reached in June.
> 
> ...


I read that to mean pretty much exactly what the selected quotes say: that the 2.0's never had any possible way to pass emissions, but that they can be made a lot cleaner. It's now up to CARB & EPA to decide if that's good enough or not.


----------



## BudPytko (Apr 22, 2012)

It shouldn't be "good enough" ! If it is, every car maker in the USA will start deleting parts that make it "legal".


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

BudPytko said:


> It shouldn't be "good enough" ! If it is, every car maker in the USA will start deleting parts that make it "legal".


Every company that has made a product that was illegal or even considered it looks at the numbers, what it does to their business and future business, fines, possible jail time, etc. and makes a decision. I don't think any other manufacturer is going to look at the VW case and the $15 billion dollars it will cost them, company reputation, and future sales, and decide they want to follow the same path regardless of VW getting to hit the 80-90% standards.

At some point the regulators have to decide what is possible, reasonable and best for the consumer and U.S. as a whole. A year into this it might be that the cars really can't hit 100% and we are best off fixing them to meet the 80-90% and fining VW. As a non VW owner I see all of the VW TDI's meeting 80% of the standards better for the environment than taking all of the cars back and crushing them.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

dmorrow said:


> Every company that has made a product that was illegal or even considered it looks at the numbers, what it does to their business and future business, fines, possible jail time, etc. and makes a decision. I don't think any other manufacturer is going to look at the VW case and the $15 billion dollars it will cost them, company reputation, and future sales, and decide they want to follow the same path regardless of VW getting to hit the 80-90% standards.
> 
> At some point the regulators have to decide what is possible, reasonable and best for the consumer and U.S. as a whole. A year into this it might be that the cars really can't hit 100% and we are best off fixing them to meet the 80-90% and fining VW. As a non VW owner I see all of the VW TDI's meeting 80% of the standards better for the environment than taking all of the cars back and crushing them.



WV has actaully already agreed to pay $16.5 billion to resolve U.S. lawsuits resulting from the scandal, with more costs likely to come. Based on approximately 500,000 cars, that is $33,000 per vehicle. That is likely more money than they received for each vehicle when sold new.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

spockcat said:


> WV has actaully already agreed to pay $16.5 billion to resolve U.S. lawsuits resulting from the scandal, with more costs likely to come. Based on approximately 500,000 cars, that is $33,000 per vehicle. That is likely more money than they received for each vehicle when sold new.


I know you probably already get this, but that's retail $, not _profit_. The cost of this scandal is much, much higher than that.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Air and water do mix said:


> I know you probably already get this, but that's retail $, not _profit_. The cost of this scandal is much, much higher than that.


Oh yeah. Their profit per vehicle is very, very low according to a 2013 report.


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

Officially parking the TDI until the buyback as of today. I'm a few hundred miles away from the next mileage bracket and as of last week my battery has been struggling to hold enough oomph to start the car if it sits for anything over 8 hours.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

spockcat said:


> Oh yeah. Their profit per vehicle is very, very low according to a 2013 report.
> 
> *chart


Weird. I thought their profit per vehicle was one of the higher ones of the volume brands. Of course, it isn't going to be much compared to Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini and whatnot since those have higher transaction prices and don't really cost that much more to build (especially Audi), but I thought it was higher than the other volume brands. I wonder how GM and Toyota fare in that regard.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> Weird. I thought their profit per vehicle was one of the higher ones of the volume brands. Of course, it isn't going to be much compared to Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini and whatnot since those have higher transaction prices and don't really cost that much more to build (especially Audi), but I thought it was higher than the other volume brands. I wonder how GM and Toyota fare in that regard.



That article mentioned higher than usual R&D costs. So they could be writing off stuff like getting MQB plants up and running on VWs tab even if they then go make a skoda or Audi on it. I was wondering if that was a factor in it before reading after seeing how much that changed Teslas per vehicle figures. Before R&D their profits per care are closer to Porsche. After R&D they are under the Audi/lambo profits I think.


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

PnZrFsT said:


> Officially parking the TDI until the buyback as of today. I'm a few hundred miles away from the next mileage bracket and as of last week my battery has been struggling to hold enough oomph to start the car if it sits for anything over 8 hours.


Smart to park 'em if you can, until Sept 16. I read about a person on another forum whose VW was totaled recently. Their buyback number would have been $24K, insurance paid out $18K. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

jen_madcity said:


> Smart to park 'em if you can, until Sept 16. I read about a person on another forum whose VW was totaled recently. Their buyback number would have been $24K, insurance paid out $18K.


That sucks, but that sort of shows that insurance is paying out normal amounts with little hit from the scandal which is good news for those who have been concerned. People have been worried about not getting what the car itself is worth, that math works out to the owner getting the cars value minus the we f'd up money. Would I be annoyed I lost out on the free extra cash, yes absolutely, but I would also be very happy that I still got what i should have from insurance.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

PnZrFsT said:


> Officially parking the TDI until the buyback as of today. I'm a few hundred miles away from the next mileage bracket and as of last week my battery has been struggling to hold enough oomph to start the car if it sits for anything over 8 hours.


Same here, except I've only been driving the car 1-2 times a week since I got back from my SoCal road trip a couple of weeks ago.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> That article mentioned higher than usual R&D costs. So they could be writing off stuff like getting MQB plants up and running on VWs tab even if they then go make a skoda or Audi on it. I was wondering if that was a factor in it before reading after seeing how much that changed Teslas per vehicle figures. Before R&D their profits per care are closer to Porsche. After R&D they are under the Audi/lambo profits I think.


If you mean those last 2 sentences regarding Tesla's profit per vehicle, isn't it negative when R&D is included? They have lost money since day 1 (or at least 2011).


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> If you mean those last 2 sentences regarding Tesla's profit per vehicle, isn't it negative when R&D is included? They have lost money since day 1 (or at least 2011).


Yes as a whole there is a loss per vehicle, but just adding in R&D does not make it negative from figures that I saw a few weeks when this came up in another thread. I'm way rounding and using random figures here. It was something like if you just took labor and material costs to put a car together the average ford was like 5k profit, average GM was 4k profit and Telsa was 20k profit. If you took GM and Fords R&D and spread that out over all cars it took their profits down about a grand each so 4 and 3k respectively (again remember random figures), Tesla was then like 2k, I could have this very wrong. There are other expenses like admin that isn't always calculated into this, with that it goes negative and the other companies go even lower but still positive per vehicle. 

So how I meant to relate that here was if VW spends 500 million building out a new engine plant that gets factored into their cost per vehicle and narrows down the profits that year. If that plant is supplying the engines it is making to Audi and Skoda at call it a grand a piece that didn't suddenly tag on another grand from the year before to make an A3. That chart being for 2013 I think it said would include them redoing a bunch of facilities for the new models that were just out, so the following year with that paid for the profits per vehicle could theoretically have been higher than some others.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

spockcat said:


> If you mean those last 2 sentences regarding Tesla's profit per vehicle, isn't it negative when R&D is included?


Their current R&D expenses include creating an entire automaker from scratch (a one-time expense) and the full development of the Model 3, which is a car that hasn't even been sold yet, thus hasn't recouped any of the expenses. All big businesses have high startup costs that go down over time. Amazon was famous for posting loss after loss and only just recently transitioned into profitability. I am still skeptical that Tesla will succeed long term as an independent automaker like BMW or Volvo, but then again nearly every automaker isn't truly independent. They all have some kind of partial ownership of one thing or another and they all get the majority of their parts from suppliers that provide for multiple automakers.


----------



## jp71624 (Jul 13, 2015)

R&D costs are not including start-up costs, as start-up costs are pre-operational expenses and R&D expenses are expensed as incurred. SG&A expenses are really much larger for Tesla than R&D anyway. They are spending money rapidly to expand with the help of subsidized growth, both internal and to their customers, which few corporations are afforded on that scale.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


----------



## daunicorn (Apr 20, 2005)

The very little info they have given everyone is kind of annoying really. I own 2 effected cars and 1 of which has had a tranmission issue for the last 20k miles and they have had it more in the shop than I have.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

daunicorn said:


> The very little info they have given everyone is kind of annoying really. I own 2 effected cars and 1 of which has had a tranmission issue for the last 20k miles and they have had it more in the shop than I have.


I think this Saturday is the 1 year anniversary of VW admitting they had a problem?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> I think this Saturday is the 1 year anniversary of VW admitting they had a problem?


If you click on page 1 of this thread, you'll see it all came to light September 18, 2015.


----------



## daunicorn (Apr 20, 2005)

dmorrow said:


> I think this Saturday is the 1 year anniversary of VW admitting they had a problem?


They have a open ticket on a my ac and transmission in a 2014. They admit there is a problem from week 1 but refuse to do **** about it because there is no codes for it and they dont know for 100% sure what is wrong. But that there is something wrong.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

daunicorn said:


> They have a open ticket on a my ac and transmission in a 2014. They admit there is a problem from week 1 but refuse to do **** about it because there is no codes for it and they dont know for 100% sure what is wrong. But that there is something wrong.


Well in a few months they'll have your car for good and you'll have $20k in your pocket, or whatever your payout is. :thumbup:


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Well, they are halfway there...

https://bol.bna.com/more-than-200000-volkswagen-owners-register-for-settlement/ 

So about 40% of US owners have agreed to be part of the settlement. To think they just need to just double that plus a bit more to avoid fines. 

Given that the fix won't be approved until at least the end of the year (if ever) for Gen 1 cars... are most people going buyback? If you choose the fix before the September deadline, can you reverse that and choose buyback later?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

E CODE said:


> Well, they are halfway there...
> 
> https://bol.bna.com/more-than-200000-volkswagen-owners-register-for-settlement/
> 
> ...




You missed an important part:



> More than 200,000 people have registered to receive benefits under a proposed $14.7 billion settlement among Volkswagen AG, federal regulators and consumer class action plaintiffs, according to a court filing.
> 
> Attorneys representing Volkswagen owners and lessees late Friday formally asked a federal judge to approve the proposed settlement, which would resolve some claims against Volkswagen over the company’s use of illegal technology that allowed diesel vehicles to pass emissions tests despite emitting more pollution than allowed. The attorneys said that about 210,000 owners and lessees have already signed up to participate, a figure that they said is “remarkable” given that the settlement has not yet been approved and the deadline for submitting claims isn’t until September 2018.
> 
> ...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> You missed an important part:


Yes that a shockingly low number of TDI owners are acting like TDI owners


----------



## gw204 (Apr 18, 2005)

chris86vw said:


> Yes that a shockingly low number of TDI owners are acting like TDI owners


That number would be 236 if my wife's TDI wouldn't have gotten hit twice since we bought it in Jan '15. She loves the car but we're taking the buyback just to get out of a car that's been crunched.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

gw204 said:


> That number would be 236 if my wife's TDI wouldn't have gotten hit twice since we bought it in Jan '15. She loves the car but we're taking the buyback just to get out of a car that's been crunched.


That isn't those opting out of the buyback, that is the number of people opting out of the entire settlement which includes the fix and get paid.

Are you saying that had it not been hit twice you would have opted out of the entire settlement?

If you would have taken the fix and get paid you'd be in the 200k not the 235 group.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

E CODE said:


> Well, they are halfway there...
> 
> https://bol.bna.com/more-than-200000-volkswagen-owners-register-for-settlement/
> 
> ...


Would be nice if we can get this going sooner ... I have a car on it's way and would rather shorten/reduce the 2 car costs (even thou the #Daspolluter will be parked) for the short term.

*Attorneys representing Volkswagen owners and lessees late Friday formally asked a federal judge to approve the proposed settlement,* which would resolve some claims against Volkswagen over the company’s use of illegal technology that allowed diesel vehicles to pass emissions tests despite emitting more pollution than allowed. The attorneys said that about 210,000 owners and lessees have already signed up to participate, a figure that they said is “remarkable” given that the settlement has not yet been approved and the deadline for submitting claims isn’t until September 2018.

The tentative settlement, which is expected to be approvedin October, would give consumers the option of selling back affected 2.0-liter diesels to Volkswagen at a premium. Consumers also could opt to wait and see if Volkswagen garners approval for a technical fix that would bring the vehicles into compliance.


----------



## gw204 (Apr 18, 2005)

chris86vw said:


> That isn't those opting out of the buyback, that is the number of people opting out of the entire settlement which includes the fix and get paid.


Ah crap. I totally read that wrong.


Yeah...we would be taking the money and keeping the car.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> If you click on page 1 of this thread, you'll see it all came to light September 18, 2015.





> Sept. 3: VW admits that the cars were "designed and manufactured with a defeat device to bypass, defeat or render inoperative elements of the vehicle's emission control system," CARB says.
> Read more at https://www.cars.com/articles/vw-diesel-crisis-timeline-of-events-1420681251993/#6e6AZVoroUbZ1TuM.99





E CODE said:


> Well, they are halfway there...
> 
> https://bol.bna.com/more-than-200000-volkswagen-owners-register-for-settlement/
> 
> ...


With them having not fixed or bought back any cars I wouldn't say they are halfway there.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> I think this Saturday is the 1 year anniversary of VW admitting they had a problem?





AZGolf said:


> If you click on page 1 of this thread, you'll see it all came to light September 18, 2015.





dmorrow said:


> "Sept. 3: VW admits that the cars were "designed and manufactured with a defeat device to bypass, defeat or render inoperative elements of the vehicle's emission control system," CARB says.
> Read more at https://www.cars.com/articles/vw-die...VoroUbZ1TuM.99"



So 3rd is the day of the intervention and the 18th is the day they told the world they were going into rehab.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> *Attorneys representing Volkswagen owners and lessees late Friday formally asked a federal judge to approve the proposed settlement,* which would resolve some claims against Volkswagen over the company’s use of illegal technology that allowed diesel vehicles to pass emissions tests despite emitting more pollution than allowed. The attorneys said that about 210,000 owners and lessees have already signed up to participate, a figure that they said is “remarkable” given that the settlement has not yet been approved and the deadline for submitting claims isn’t until September 2018.
> 
> The tentative settlement, which is expected to be approved in October, would give consumers the option of selling back affected 2.0-liter diesels to Volkswagen at a premium. Consumers also could opt to wait and see if Volkswagen garners approval for a technical fix that would bring the vehicles into compliance.


I don't think its all that 'remarkable'.
That is 200k people who have been waiting for a YEAR for something to actually happen, and have decided to be part of the class action... versus taking VW on independently. That is 200k people would rather just put this behind them, in some fashion, vs fighting it out. That is 200k owners who are NOT committed to one option or the other... 200k people who STILL have the choice to change from "buyback" to "repair" (or vice versa) at anytime up to Sept 2018. That 200k was also the EASY part, they were the one's who made an effort to be informed.

The next 45% won't be nearly as easy to come by.:beer:


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

dunhamjr said:


> The next 45% won't be nearly as easy to come by.:beer:


That's what I was thinking...


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> So 3rd is the day of the intervention and the 18th is the day they told the world they were going into rehab.


Agree, 3rd - "yeah we used a few times at parties in the U.S." 18th - "ok we are addicts and have been for years, we actually sell, use and have been doing it worldwide for years"


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW could agree to U.S. large-car diesel fix by October, Audi sales chief says*



> HONG KONG -- Volkswagen Group could reach a final settlement with U.S. authorities as early as October over its large-engine diesel cars found to have cheated emissions tests, the sales chief of its premium Audi brand said.
> 
> Negotiations related to the 3.0-liter engine in VW, Audi and Porsche vehicles were progressing well, Dietmar Voggenreiter, Audi's global head of sales and marketing, told Reuters today in an interview in Hong Kong.
> 
> ...


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

spockcat said:


> *VW could agree to U.S. large-car diesel fix by October, Audi sales chief says*


This doesn't actually say 'fix for 3.0L' anywhere... Just the title... 

Methinks that another round of buybacks is in the works.... Or if there is a fix... it's fix plus restitution for sure.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

^"could be agreeable" is the point - VW will be agreeable to an easy software patch in their eyes as that would "fix" the problem - its getting the EPA/CARB approval and negotiating to something less than 100% compliance which will be the problem.

Personally at this point I don't care to stick around to see the back and forth between the two - the 3.0TDI has a urea tank and should technically be easier than say a first gen TDI without urea, yet they say well end of October or early November we should have a final proposal submitted - that doesn't mean approved.

And they still have 3 other generations of engines to get certified in addition to the 3.0TDI - I'm not holding my breath and this will be dragged out for years.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW faces tougher UK scrutiny as lawmakers call for action*



> LONDON -- The UK must set strict timelines for Volkswagen Group to recall tainted diesel vehicles and compensate their owners, a parliamentary committee said-
> 
> The comments add Europe's second-largest auto market after Germany to the list of countries demanding a definitive resolution from the automaker.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Australia sues VW over alleged emissions fraud*



> SYDNEY -- The Australian consumer watchdog said it sued the Australian arm of Volkswagen Group for intentionally selling more than 57,000 vehicles with software designed to skirt emissions rules.
> 
> "These allegations involve extraordinary conduct of a serious and deliberate nature by a global corporation," Australian Competition and Consumer Commission Chairman Rod Sims said in a statement.
> 
> ...


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

hoooly, and the punches keep rolling!

Question is...do they pass Australian pollution limits when not in cheat mode??


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

One step closer.

*California's VW diesel-cheating agreement approved by judge*



> SAN FRANCISCO/DETROIT -- Volkswagen Group's agreement with California to resolve unfair competition claims tied to the company's emissions-cheating scandal won final approval from the federal judge overseeing hundreds of lawsuits in the U.S.
> 
> California's consent decree is part of VW's more than $16.5 billion in settlements with car owners, dealerships and regulators in the U.S. over the sale of diesel vehicles fitted with devices to beat pollution tests. The carmaker will pay $86 million to California, home to the largest share of the almost 600,000 cars on U.S. roads rigged to cheat tests.
> 
> ...


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Possible interesting question.... 

Do you think that VW will use the responses from the settlement to direct elements of it? Specifically I'm thinking that if most people opt for a buyback.... would VW just give up on the fix option? I mean, why put effort into finding the fix, performing the fix, and supporting it for 100's of thousands of miles of warranty... when only a small percentage of owners are even wanting it? 

You would think that at some point, it makes it easier just to buy back everything, wash their hands and focus on the future. Particularly for the Gen1 and 2 that they have not even submitted fixes for....


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

E CODE said:


> Possible interesting question....
> 
> Do you think that VW will use the responses from the settlement to direct elements of it? Specifically I'm thinking that if most people opt for a buyback.... would VW just give up on the fix option? I mean, why put effort into finding the fix, performing the fix, and supporting it for 100's of thousands of miles of warranty... when only a small percentage of owners are even wanting it?
> 
> You would think that at some point, it makes it easier just to buy back everything, wash their hands and focus on the future. Particularly for the Gen1 and 2 that they have not even submitted fixes for....


Once they come to an agreement with the government and all of the lawyers involved it won't change because most pick one over the other. They already have a good idea of all of the numbers and after a year of looking into it are ok with the program. It's possible that some cars will never have an adequate fix and VW owners will only have the option of doing nothing or getting the buyback but this isn't the same as VW changing it's mind. Also, as time goes on and all of the cars get older the buyback option will look better as the value stays the same but the car on the open market continues to go down in value.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

E CODE said:


> Possible interesting question....
> 
> Do you think that VW will use the responses from the settlement to direct elements of it? Specifically I'm thinking that if most people opt for a buyback.... would VW just give up on the fix option? I mean, why put effort into finding the fix, performing the fix, and supporting it for 100's of thousands of miles of warranty... when only a small percentage of owners are even wanting it?
> 
> You would think that at some point, it makes it easier just to buy back everything, wash their hands and focus on the future. Particularly for the Gen1 and 2 that they have not even submitted fixes for....


VW is going to want to fix and resell as many of the bought-back vehicles as they can.

But even so ... I'm guessing that they'll only fix and resell about a third of the bought-back cars. Anything high-mileage, and anything 2009-2010 and perhaps 2011 (i.e. more than about 6 years old by the time this all plays out), anything with a trim / option / colour combination that is likely to be hard to resell, and anything that requires expensive repairs outside of "the fix" itself for whatever reason (body damage, interior damage, partial mechanical failures, "delete" cars, anything with modifications that need to be reversed to make it sellable), is going to the junk pile.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> Also, as time goes on and all of the cars get older the buyback option will look better as the value stays the same but the car on the open market continues to go down in value.


The buyback is based on mileage, so over time (so long as you're still using the car) your buyback value will be going down due to mileage.


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

AZGolf said:


> The buyback is based on mileage, so over time (so long as you're still using the car) your buyback value will be going down due to mileage.


No. There is a fudge factor built into the deal. As long as you stay under a certain mileage (off the top of my head, about 1,100 miles/month), the buyback value won't go down. In fact, if you stay well under that mileage, your value will go up a little bit! Only if you substantially exceed that fudge factor will the buyback value go down.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

Do you think the actual timing of the buyback will be flexible? I registered for the first available date, but in looking for replacement vehicles, it seems like finding what I want will be challenging. I wonder if I can hold off on the buyback until I find or order what I'm looking for. I'm planning to use the buyback funds as a down payment on a replacement vehicle, so the timing is tricky. If I were buying another VW product I'm sure this would be simpler. I haven't ruled that out, but am waiting to see if VW comes up with some sort of incentive to try to keep us in the brand. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

bdc12 said:


> Do you think the actual timing of the buyback will be flexible? I registered for the first available date, but in looking for replacement vehicles, it seems like finding what I want will be challenging. I wonder if I can hold off on the buyback until I find or order what I'm looking for. I'm planning to use the buyback funds as a down payment on a replacement vehicle, so the timing is tricky. If I were buying another VW product I'm sure this would be simpler. I haven't ruled that out, but am waiting to see if VW comes up with some sort of incentive to try to keep us in the brand.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


VW isn't going to show up at your house and take your car away from you. You will certainly be able to make an appointment based on your schedule. Especially after they get through the initial rush.


----------



## bclark1000 (Sep 5, 2016)

*VW website calculator is about 5K less than I was expecting*

Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but I could find it.

I went on the official VW website to calculate my buyback, and came back about 5K less than I calculated the following tools:

Calculator 1

Calculator 2

Is anyone else surprised at the amount VW says they will buy your car back for?


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

VW's 7 passenger suv can't get here soon enough. its either that or a used Honda Odessy or maybe a new Pacifica but man I hate buying first year cars. Plus I'm not looking to spend 40k on an a van.


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

bclark1000 said:


> Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but I could find it.
> 
> I went on the official VW website to calculate my buyback, and came back about 5K less than I calculated the following tools:
> 
> ...


Many people misunderstood the initial FTC tables. The buyback amount already includes the restitution. You don't add anything additional. That's the mistake most made. 

If you register on the VW claims portal, you'll get your buyback amount to the penny. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

jen_madcity said:


> Many people misunderstood the initial FTC tables. The buyback amount already includes the restitution. You don't add anything additional. That's the mistake most made.
> 
> If you register on the VW claims portal, you'll get your buyback amount to the penny.
> 
> ...


Edit: I used your calculators, and they were pretty close to my actual buyback amount. Not sure why you had such a discrepancy. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## bclark1000 (Sep 5, 2016)

*6.2K difference between VW calculation and mine!*

This is what the VW website says I will be paid:

Vehicle Return Amount $16,425.00

Additional Restitution $6,271.73

Total Buyback Amount $22,696.73

Amount VW Will Pay to You $22,696.73

Projected Mileage at Return 40,001 -45,000

Tentative Return Date 11/01/2016


This is what I calculate using calculator #1:

2011 Jetta SportWagen 4D TDI	
Buyback Amount $19,097.00	Modification Amount $5,672.00
Option: Power Sunroof	
Buyback Amount $600.00 Modification Amount $100.00

Miles: 25001 - 30000

Odometer miles: 42000

Calculation month: October 2016

Mileage Adjustment: -13546

Effective miles: 28454
Buyback Amount $3,000.00	Modification Amount $500.00
Further Adjustment	$0	$0

(Total)	Buyback Amount $22,697.00 Modification Amount $6,272.00

For a total of $28,969

Which is a difference of -$6,272.27

Can anyone point out why the calculations are so far off?

Thanks in advance


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

bclark1000 said:


> This is what the VW website says I will be paid:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Because you are adding in the 6200 for some reason when it is already there. 


Notice you have identical numbers and the difference is what you are for some reason adding in a second time.


ETA, ran it myself


the modification amount is the amount that you get if you chose the modifications. You get the buyback *OR* the modification not both


----------



## bclark1000 (Sep 5, 2016)

bclark1000 said:


> This is what the VW website says I will be paid:
> 
> Vehicle Return Amount $16,425.00
> 
> ...




And this is the calculation from calculator #2, which gives the same result

Buyback Modification
Car $19,097 $5,672

Options $600 $100

Mileage $3,000 $500

Adjustment $0 $0

Total: $22,697 $6,272 = $28,969


----------



## bclark1000 (Sep 5, 2016)

chris86vw said:


> Because you are adding in the 6200 for some reason when it is already there.
> 
> 
> Notice you have identical numbers and the difference is what you are for some reason adding in a second time.
> ...




OK, I understand. Bummer. I guess I will have to downgrade the expectations on my next car.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

The online calculators (thanks for those, btw) both calculated my 28,277 payout exactly like the VW site did and were much easier to navigate. VW did make the whole adjustment/buyback verbiage confusing. I can see why people think they get the total of both amounts.


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

bclark1000 said:


> This is what the VW website says I will be paid:
> 
> Vehicle Return Amount $16,425.00
> 
> ...


As I guessed.

You don't add that $6272 to your buyback number. The buyback number ALREADY includes your "additional restitution ". 

Many others made that same error. It wasn't clear when the initial settlement approval first came out. Good luck. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bclark1000 (Sep 5, 2016)

jen_madcity said:


> As I guessed.
> 
> You don't add that $6272 to your buyback number. The buyback number ALREADY includes your "additional restitution ".
> 
> ...


When Consumer Reports came out recently and said VW should be offering more, due to my miscalculation, I was scratching my head as to why I should get more. Now I want to be compensated an additional amount for the humiliation and ridicule I have experienced for having a larger carbon footprint than I was led to believe.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

bclark1000 said:


> When Consumer Reports came out recently and said VW should be offering more, due to my miscalculation, I was scratching my head as to why I should get more. Now I want to be compensated an additional amount for the humiliation and ridicule I have experienced for having a larger carbon footprint than I was led to believe.


Your carbon footprint remains pretty much what you were lead to believe, it's the NOx footprint that's the problem here. The TDI is still emitting WAY less CO than their gas counterparts.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> The TDI is still emitting WAY less CO than their gas counterparts.


Source? Because I am 99% certain this claim is way beyond false.


----------



## bclark1000 (Sep 5, 2016)

If I were to take the modification settlement and VW never comes up with an appropriate EPA/CARB fix within the specified time, what happens? I love my TDI Sportswagen and have no problems with driving it for two more years.

BTW, thanks to all of you for answering my questions. I know I am late to the party, but I just got my VW packet last week.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

I just wish VW would make good on their "diesel is dead/we're going to electrify everything' public statements and make the E-Golf available in more states. There's a strong chance we'd re-up for one at buyback time if it were available here. 

It annoys the **** out of me that OR-based dealers won't even talk with us about an E-Golf. The only way we could get one here is used.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

bclark1000 said:


> This is what the VW website says I will be paid:
> 
> Vehicle Return Amount $16,425.00
> 
> ...


I'm not counting on the calculation numbers just yet. My dealership said VW will have their own people to asses vehicles. Things may change. All of this is leaving a lot of uncertainty on what we can buy as a replacement. 



AZGolf said:


> Source? Because I am 99% certain this claim is way beyond false.


X2. I agree. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

2ohgti said:


> My dealership said VW will have their own people to asses vehicles.


There is absolutely nothing about this in the settlement, while it may change slightly it will not change that drastically if the judge has said all sides are currently agreeing to the terms, a wrench like this will not randomly get thrown in. This is in the class review period something like that would change if people were going to opt out or not so it would need to be clear now if that was the case, not just throw it in later. 

There is NO assessment at the dealership beyond confirming you are the legal owner and the mileage, as per the settlement.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> There is absolutely nothing about this in the settlement, while it may change slightly it will not change that drastically if the judge has said all sides are currently agreeing to the terms, a wrench like this will not randomly get thrown in. This is in the class review period something like that would change if people were going to opt out or not so it would need to be clear now if that was the case, not just throw it in later.
> 
> There is NO assessment at the dealership beyond confirming you are the legal owner and the mileage, as per the settlement.


Also agree, there would be no point in set values if in the end the dealer would get a chance to pick it apart and put their own value on the car.

Then, imagine the cluster f**k if every dealer gave every customer a slightly different value. Hundreds of thousands of people going to different dealers to have their car evaluated.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> There is absolutely nothing about this in the settlement, while it may change slightly it will not change that drastically if the judge has said all sides are currently agreeing to the terms, a wrench like this will not randomly get thrown in. This is in the class review period something like that would change if people were going to opt out or not so it would need to be clear now if that was the case, not just throw it in later.
> 
> There is NO assessment at the dealership beyond confirming you are the legal owner and the mileage, as per the settlement.


Good to know 

I didn't see anything including assessments either. Not sure what they were talking about. I can see to be involved in the buyback transactions maybe. They also said they are unsure what to do w/ 15 unsold cars sitting on their lot, so they could be confused. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

bclark1000 said:


> If I were to take the modification settlement and VW never comes up with an appropriate EPA/CARB fix within the specified time, what happens? I love my TDI Sportswagen and have no problems with driving it for two more years.
> 
> BTW, thanks to all of you for answering my questions. I know I am late to the party, but I just got my VW packet last week.


For one, you don't get any settlement money until after the fix is preformed. So there's that. 

If they don't come up with a fix, then you opt for the buyback. 

What I would want clarity on, is if this is the case (you've elected for the fix) and they don't have a fix - do you get the chance to opt out of the settlement then? Or since you've opted into the settlement already, and the only option in the settlement is a buyout, doe the buyout get forced on you?

I'm fairly certain that if you opt for a fix, and then change your mind and want a buyout, you can do that though...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

bclark1000 said:


> If I were to take the modification settlement and VW never comes up with an appropriate EPA/CARB fix within the specified time, what happens? I love my TDI Sportswagen and have no problems with driving it for two more years.
> 
> BTW, thanks to all of you for answering my questions. I know I am late to the party, but I just got my VW packet last week.



If you opt of the modification you don't get paid until the vehicles are actually modified. For the gen 1 and 2 cars this is a single fix for the gen3 it is a 2 phase fix with I think it is 2/3 pay out at the first fix and final 1/3 at the time of the second step. I think those 2/3 and 1/3 are correct.

There is a date that if no fix is available by that time any person who opted to wait for the fix can switch to the buyback. 


That is what I"m doing with my 2015 (gen3) opting for fix and if it never comes let them take it back.

2012 going bye bye


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

E CODE said:


> For one, you don't get any settlement money until after the fix is preformed. So there's that.
> 
> If they don't come up with a fix, then you opt for the buyback.
> 
> ...


I know as of now you can change your mind, but like you said-no real fix yet. No fix means we don't know if there will be one. Will the extra time mean extra miles which will make a difference in your buyback amount too?
Also I keep hearing people talk about a "fix" to VW's "fix" is get a tune. I've heard a few people say that will get your lose of power and MPG back. But how does anyone know if there isn't a real fix yet? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

2ohgti said:


> But how does anyone know if there isn't a real fix yet?



The don't, it is all just rumors. Usually the same people that have had 10 revisions to their 2009 and claimed they lost 5mpg on each update and VW screwed them. But if you do the quick math it now gets negative mpg....


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

2ohgti said:


> I know as of now you can change your mind, but like you said-no real fix yet. No fix means we don't know if there will be one. Will the extra time mean extra miles which will make a difference in your buyback amount too?
> Also I keep hearing people talk about a "fix" to VW's "fix" is get a tune. I've heard a few people say that will get your lose of power and MPG back. But how does anyone know if there isn't a real fix yet?


There is absolutely NO approved fix, at this time, for any of the three engines.

Gen3 (2015's) engines have a submission to the EPA that is currently being tested to see if it will be approved as a fix, however it has not been approved yet. 

Gen1 and Gen2 fixes have not been submitted. 

There were rumors that Gen1 cars would get a bigger Cat and software (which, I call total B.S :bs: because something THAT easy would have been done at some point over the course of the last decade). Also, there isn't really any room for a 'bigger cat'.

Also, the EPA won't approve a fix if the car's don't perform to their initial tests, meaning VW can't just reduce MPG/power/etc. to get the numbers down. That's written in the court docs. 

Lastly, I'm not so sure that the TDI tuners out there would go through the trouble of creating new aftermarket tunes for cars after the fix is done either... the market might not be big enough for that type of R&D.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

E CODE said:


> There is absolutely NO approved fix, at this time, for any of the three engines.
> 
> Gen3 (2015's) engines have a submission to the EPA that is currently being tested to see if it will be approved as a fix, however it has not been approved yet.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I thought so.

I also think Tuners will bail completely on selling tunes regarding a fix or not. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

E CODE said:


> Lastly, I'm not so sure that the TDI tuners out there would go through the trouble of creating new aftermarket tunes for cars after the fix is done either... the market might not be big enough for that type of R&D.


I'd say the EPA is the bigger problem for that. EPA has already gone after several diesel tuners as it is, can you even _imagine_ their wrath at a company that un-does a fix that they spent over a year in court and probably 2+ years in total negotiations to provide? Then some company goes and undoes all that work on purpose for a quick buck? If I ran a tuner company I would be looking to stay as far away from VW TDIs as possible, as you are basically offering up black market dirty bomb making material, as far as the EPA is concerned.


----------



## rs4-380 (Dec 12, 2000)

sorry if I've missed it, but what's going to happen with all the unsellable new cars on dealer lots? I assume they are still there waiting a "fix", but I assume the priority will be fixing customer cars first, so what's it going to be like selling a new "fixed" tdi that is 2 years old? Or more to the point, what if the fix never comes?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

E CODE said:


> Lastly, I'm not so sure that the TDI tuners out there would go through the trouble of creating new aftermarket tunes for cars after the fix is done either... the market might not be big enough for that type of R&D.





AZGolf said:


> I'd say the EPA is the bigger problem for that. EPA has already gone after several diesel tuners as it is, can you even _imagine_ their wrath at a company that un-does a fix that they spent over a year in court and probably 2+ years in total negotiations to provide? Then some company goes and undoes all that work on purpose for a quick buck? If I ran a tuner company I would be looking to stay as far away from VW TDIs as possible, as you are basically offering up black market dirty bomb making material, as far as the EPA is concerned.




I think, could be wrong, that you guys are talking about 2 things.

ecode is saying redo tunes for the new updated hardware correct?

az you are referring to rumors of people saying they would just go to their tuner and get the old file to undo the updates right?


I disagree with ecodes assumption that they won't update the tunes, that will take little work, some work but little work. However if you have a bunch of customers that paid you 500 bucks they are going to be very pissed if you don't update the new software and allow them to get back what they paid for. There are some tuners in the diesel market that have life time updates for his and others who limit it and charge a fee (maybe not full price?). I think this is fine and generally just a tune with all emissions equipment intact is not being scrutinized by the EPA or state level inspections, it is that gray area that takes more resources than the EPA has to spend on it and there are many markets with bigger fish than the VW TDI market. I'd venture to guess every tuner updates their performance software to work with the software revisions, just now within the limitations any hardware changes may present. The hard part was done, revising a tune is easy, dealing with an entire customer base pissed off that you took their money and they got nothing won't be. Not that I think every tuner should just work for free to fix VWs mistake, they do it constantly with all the recalls and revisions in all the engines. 

I agree and disagree with AZ about undoing the fixes. For some say the gen3 initial change if that is just a flash then there is no real development no is there really much of a way for the EPA or even a state to check if it was backdated. I am not suggesting it but essentially this could be hidden and take no work on a tuners part. For software updates that go along with full hardware updates I think that is two fold. You will have limited tuners willing to remove the updates and revert/delete them in their software. But there are already tuners who do full DPF and EGR type deletes, they still are, and some are even in development so they don't seem thrown by the changes happening in the market as they develop these products. Location of those businesses may have something to do with it, I don't think this is a good idea tuners in Americas Hat may be in for some surprises in the next year or two. 



Since there are no fixes yet at all there isn't really anything anyone can do but guess.


----------



## jamiepeterson2 (Aug 11, 2016)

*Brussels just came down hard on VW*

The EU Commission for Justice and Consumers “thinks it is necessary to take regulatory action on a European level".

Europeans are not happy with Americans owners of affected Volkswagens getting up to $10,000 as part of a $15 billion diesel cheating settlement. They find it increasingly hard to comprehend why Volkswagen is raked over the coals in South Korea or Australia, but at home, where most of the environmental damage is done, there is no penalty or restitution. 

The EU Commission sees violations of the EU Consumer Sales Directive, and of the EU Unfair Commercial Practices Directive, both laws with extremely sharp teeth, especially when multiplied by the more than 8.5 million affected diesel cars in Europe. Volkswagen’s CEO Matthias Mueller already conceded that paying off millions of European customers would certainly bankrupt Volkswagen."

Opel and Daimler have already paid dearly for their errors in judgment.
Now, Volkswagen is on the chopping block.

It is very unlikely that VW will survive this ordeal.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

So if I have my car bought back, can I get a loaner car for a few day until I find a new car since I'll need the VW money as a donw-payment on a new car?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

jamiepeterson2 said:


> The EU Commission for Justice and Consumers “thinks it is necessary to take regulatory action on a European level".
> 
> Europeans are not happy with Americans owners of affected Volkswagens getting up to $10,000 as part of a $15 billion diesel cheating settlement. They find it increasingly hard to comprehend why Volkswagen is raked over the coals in South Korea or Australia, but at home, where most of the environmental damage is done, there is no penalty or restitution.


Well the EU made this happen by letting companies off easy with the stupidly lax NEDC that hasn't been updated in nearly 20 years and is laughably out of date. They further made this happen by having nearly nothing in the way of enforcement of environmental directives - a classic failing of the EU, and example of how useless the EU governing body is.



jamiepeterson2 said:


> It is very unlikely that VW will survive this ordeal.


VW is the most important business to Germany, and Germany is the strongest member of the EU. There will be a Deutchexit before they will allow the selfish leaders of the EU to shut down VW.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

AJB said:


> So if I have my car bought back, can I get a loaner car for a few day until I find a new car since I'll need the VW money as a donw-payment on a new car?


There is no such provision in the agreement - "not their problem". It will be easiest if you are buying your new one from the same dealer that you are arranging the buy-back through (i.e. VW), but failing that, talk to both dealers involved and explain the circumstances. You won't be alone. It may be too early to set up a laid-in-stone plan for dealing with this.

If you have no cash, you can always finance the entire cost of the new car and simply make a payment against the loan when the funds become available.

Or ... in this day and age ... I just (a month ago) financed the entire cost of a new car at 0% for 5 years even though I could have paid cash, because this is a free loan, and now I can do something else with that cash (e.g. pay down an unrelated loan that I'm actually paying interest on). This is an opportunity for you to make credit card debt or other consumer loans disappear.


----------



## jamiepeterson2 (Aug 11, 2016)

Too big to fail?

Sorry that isn't going to happen this time around.
Deutsche Bank is sliding on the ropes as well being hammered by negative interest rates and derivatives.

The German economy isn't as rosey as you might think.

VW's push into electric vehicles is going to leave a lot of suppliers out in the cold as well.
That's if they can still find enough money to make it happen.
The money is gushing out the doors and is about to explode exponentially.

VAG will be forced to sell everything to stay afloat. The Navistar deal is a dead end road.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

AJB said:


> So if I have my car bought back, can I get a loaner car for a few day until I find a new car since I'll need the VW money as a donw-payment on a new car?


So this is where working with a dealer that has another product at the dealership or in the dealer "family" to work with. Meaning they can work a deal (like some have had a down payment held for a few days in the past) since the dealership (not them but 3rd party AT the dealership (per the VW program) will have taken your TDI and know you are then waiting the 3 days for the wire transfer.

We are buying a Subaru Forester (arriving soon) and I had considered using the dealer family to leverage them to work to keep the $$ in the dealer group but they couldn't come to a good price and was too far away and ... we wanted to park the TDI ASAP to avoid a collision for possible total and loss of payout.


----------



## Rugrat Anklebiter (Dec 5, 2000)

AJB said:


> So if I have my car bought back, can I get a loaner car for a few day until I find a new car since I'll need the VW money as a donw-payment on a new car?


There are currently over 200k people signed up for a buyback. I am pretty certain we are going to see some crazy/weird offerings from all the major car companies trying to garner our business when the buy backs start. As a Dealership owner wouldn't you?


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Oh yeah I agree.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

AJB said:


> So if I have my car bought back, can I get a loaner car for a few day until I find a new car since I'll need the VW money as a donw-payment on a new car?


I agree with you but I brought this up a while back and was told it won't be a problem for you to not have a car for a few days. I believe it was Chris something that said it so you may want to find out from him how this is going to be easy for you.

As said above, VW isn't interested in this problem or at least won't be doing anything about it. If you really need transportation (as virtually everyone does) you will have to rent, borrow, or taxi/Uber). Also, VW would much rather you buy a car from them and anything past that won't be nearly as easy. I am surprised that after scamming the current customers most don't have a problem with heading back down to buy from them again, or not even interested in looking what others have to offer.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Bosch sought VW legal cover for defeat device in 2008, plaintiffs charge*



> Robert Bosch demanded eight years ago that Volkswagen Group indemnify it for using the emissions-cheating defeat device that it helped the automaker create for its diesel engines, U.S. car owners said in a new version of their lawsuit against both companies.
> 
> Bosch is accused in the lawsuit of conspiring with VW to develop technology that enabled diesel vehicles to evade pollution-control tests. After seeking legal protection from VW for its use of the device in the U.S., the German auto supplier continued to participate in the conspiracy to hide the cheating from regulators, car owners said in a court filing citing a 2008 letter from Bosch to VW.
> 
> ...


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

dmorrow said:


> I agree with you but I brought this up a while back and was told it won't be a problem for you to not have a car for a few days. I believe it was Chris something that said it so you may want to find out from him how this is going to be easy for you.
> 
> As said above, VW isn't interested in this problem or at least won't be doing anything about it. If you really need transportation (as virtually everyone does) you will have to rent, borrow, or taxi/Uber). *Also, VW would much rather you buy a car from them and anything past that won't be nearly as easy. * I am surprised that after scamming the current customers most don't have a problem with heading back down to buy from them again, or not even interested in looking what others have to offer.


I love to buy another VW. But I need 7 passenger vehicle that not going to cost 40k. Another thought is that if lets say I take my VW buyback cash and just buy a used vehicle, that might take some time to find the right "used" vehicle.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

akustikfunktiongate!


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Rugrat Anklebiter said:


> There are currently over 200k people signed up for a buyback. I am pretty certain we are going to see some crazy/weird offerings from all the major car companies trying to garner our business when the buy backs start. As a Dealership owner wouldn't you?


The number of people signed up for the buyback is currently not public information.

There are over 200k signed up to receive the buyback OR the modifications, while not at all likely there is a chance that 0 of that 200k is going to be shopping for a car.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> I agree with you but I brought this up a while back and was told it won't be a problem for you to not have a car for a few days. I believe it was Chris something that said it so you may want to find out from him how this is going to be easy for you.


Weak trolling is weak.:thumbdown:

No one said anything about it being easy, users possibly named Chris compared it to things like a lease turn in at one manufacture vs another, or a car being totaled and you not having rental or insurance, or any of hte other dozens of circumstances that happen 100s of times a day to people that leave them without a vehicle for a day or two and need to get to a dealership.


----------



## greasey (Jul 7, 2016)

dmorrow said:


> I agree with you but I brought this up a while back and was told it won't be a problem for you to not have a car for a few days. I believe it was Chris something that said it so you may want to find out from him how this is going to be easy for you.
> 
> As said above, VW isn't interested in this problem or at least won't be doing anything about it. If you really need transportation (as virtually everyone does) you will have to rent, borrow, or taxi/Uber).


They're already giving people the generous settlement offer money, isn't that enough, and isn't that the purpose of the settlement funds in the first place, to compensate people for the inconvenience of having to switch cars?. It's really pretty easy and cheap to rent a small car, assuming you're an adult with a credit card. I'm really shocked at how many people want their hand held through this, just go get a rental car for the weekend you're going to do the car shopping.



> Also, VW would much rather you buy a car from them and anything past that won't be nearly as easy. I am surprised that after scamming the current customers most don't have a problem with heading back down to buy from them again, or not even interested in looking what others have to offer.


I would be only more inclined to buy a VW. The didn't scam _me,_ they scammed a government that I'm not a huge fan of, and if this is the way they do business, they might try to cheat on other things. There's people who basically got a free car out of the scandal, if they got a good deal on a TDI powered car a couple years ago, some might be getting all their money back or close to it. If there's any significant chance something similar might develop down the road, that could get me a free (or low cost in the long term) car out of it, I would take it, though I suspect they aren't stupid enough to pull something like this twice, are they?


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

^^ I'd say that VW will be looked at and reviewed under extra scrutiny by the Feds for years to come.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

I'm fine w/ VW not offering a rental. They are giving me a very generous offer walking away w/ way more than what my car is worth. IMO it's no different if you sell a car personally. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

2ohgti said:


> IMO it's no different if you sell a car personally.


uh, do you not write up on the sales agreement that the new owner is your free uber for a month after sale? :screwy:


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

I'm going to say this again. I don't think the buyback number is very good at all. It's basically a dealer trade in number. You can't count the extra 5k because you would get that anyway if you keep your car. My buyback number is off by about $1600 from what I could have sold it privately for before the scandal.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Silly_me said:


> uh, do you not write up on the sales agreement that the new owner is your free uber for a month after sale? :screwy:


Not in the true sense literally lol. I mean you sell a car then go buy a new one. Use the money from the sale to buy a new car. I never expect the buyer to put me up in a rental, because I am out transportation. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AJB said:


> I'm going to say this again. I don't think the buyback number is very good at all. It's basically a dealer trade in number. You can't count the extra 5k because you would get that anyway if you keep your car. *My buyback number is off by about $1600 from what I could have sold it privately for before the scandal.*


Which was 1 year ago and how many miles?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AJB said:


> I'm going to say this again. I don't think the buyback number is very good at all. It's basically a dealer trade in number. You can't count the extra 5k because you would get that anyway if you keep your car. My buyback number is off by about $1600 from what I could have sold it privately for before the scandal.


I don't believe you and/or you are delusional as to the value of your car before the scandal. My buyback figure is several thousand more than what I actually had it for sale for and significantly higher than the offer I got for it 45 days before this scandal broke, plus I get another 6500 or so on top of that. This is for my 2012 JSW which gets shorted due to an over value of the 2011s. basically 2010 to 2011 jumps 3500 then 2011-2012 jumps 1500 the rest are 2500 per year price changes (rough figures). Your 2011 JSW is one of the BEST buyback packages there is. 


There was no place I was going to get 22k for my 2012 JSW. Even the overpriced one that I've mentioned a few times at carmax was listed for 18k right when this broke. So I'm roughly getting way high retail plus the 5k.

ETA (after seeing your vehicle) Are you actually saying you could have sold your 2011 JSW for 22k in sept of 2015? Or are you saying that your 20k (I forget exact) that you are getting minus the "5k" puts your car at 15k so you would have been able to get 16,600 for it in sept 2015? That his higher than used car dealer retail at the time so no you would not have been able to get that much private sale. They were going for 10-13, closer to 10.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

So many examples of people here who wouldn't hesitate to take a mile (or kilometer) from someone who provides an inch.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

spockcat said:


> Which was 1 year ago and how many miles?


That's not relevant because the buyback number is based supposed to be based on "pre-scandal" prices. Also they are not taking into consideration actualy condition of the vehicle. They are basically using the lowest common denominator for value, which is "fair market dealer trade-in value"


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AJB said:


> That's not relevant because the buyback number is based supposed to be based on "pre-scandal" prices. Also they are not taking into consideration actualy condition of the vehicle. They are basically using the lowest common denominator for value, which is "fair market dealer trade-in value"


Yet you enjoyed use of the vehicle for an additional year and additional miles. It certainly is relevant. And as Chris said, VW is paying more than you would have gotten 12 months ago. My son is supposed to receive around $17k for his 2010 JSW. No way was a 6 year old JSW worth that last year.


----------



## romano258 (Jun 14, 2007)

Honestly, it's impossible to look at this and not say that the US TDI owners made out like bandits. You got the $1k make nice with no strings attached. And you're selling the car back for way, way more than the standard market rate would have been otherwise. Oh and if you're so inclined, you can keep driving it for *another 2 years* basically for free and still get the same resale value. It's a bummer to be getting rid of the car that's so unique in the marketplace and does its job so well, but financially we friggin made out!


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AJB said:


> . They are basically using the lowest common denominator for value, which is "fair market dealer trade-in value"


No they aren't at all, before the bonus money they are using very generous values, VERY. 

But yeah what do those of us actually selling our flawless cars at the time this broke and still have them 12 months later possibly know about the values at the time this broke, not like we were actively researching them and comparing our cars to used cars out there to set a price. 

Trade in offer on my 2012 on July 27th 2015 was 9000 something, I'm blanking on exact amount since I went to carmax the week this broke and I always confuse the offers, but highest trade in offer I was given was 9800, _before_ this broke. VW is at roughly 16k, not sure how anyone could call that lowest value when it is right around dealer retail at the time it broke and well above private sale. I was going to be super happy with 12k for mine, I almost took 9k and a Fuji Transonic frameset  (~11k total)


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

spockcat said:


> Yet you enjoyed use of the vehicle for an additional year and additional miles. It certainly is relevant. And as Chris said, VW is paying more than you would have gotten 12 months ago. My son is supposed to receive around $17k for his 2010 JSW. No way was a 6 year old JSW worth that last year.


I understand what you are saying, but the buyback number was supposed ot be based on pre-scandal market value. Your son's 17k-5k is 12k. Which is a bit short of what he probably could have sold his car for back in August 2015.


----------



## Rugrat Anklebiter (Dec 5, 2000)

romano258 said:


> Honestly, it's impossible to look at this and not say that the US TDI owners made out like bandits. You got the $1k make nice with no strings attached. And you're selling the car back for way, way more than the standard market rate would have been otherwise. Oh and if you're so inclined, you can keep driving it for *another 2 years* basically for free and still get the same resale value. It's a bummer to be getting rid of the car that's so unique in the marketplace and does its job so well, but financially we friggin made out!


$500 no strings attached. $500 having to be spent at the most expensive car repair place possible. The VW Dealership.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Rugrat Anklebiter said:


> $500 no strings attached. $500 having to be spent at the most expensive car repair place possible. The VW Dealership.


No kidding, they should have given $500 that you could spend anywhere!


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AJB said:


> I understand what you are saying, but the buyback number was supposed ot be based on pre-scandal market value. Your son's 17k-5k is 12k. Which is a bit short of what he probably could have sold his car for back in August 2015.


Yet he used the car for over a year, he got the $500 gift card and a $500 dealer card and he is getting $17k when he turns the car back in after 7 years of ownership. All for the scorn heaped on him by other drivers in California who know by the TDI badge of shame on the rear hatch that he is a gross polluter. And as someone mentioned, he could still drive the car for another 2 years and get that money (Jerry Brown willing). It just doesn't seem that short to me.


----------



## romano258 (Jun 14, 2007)

Rugrat Anklebiter said:


> $500 no strings attached. $500 having to be spent at the most expensive car repair place possible. The VW Dealership.


Meh, we used it to burn through the deductable for some insurance work that we'd been putting off, so it worked out great. And again, this was on top of a pretty generous buyback. But whatever, people will always find something to bitch about.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Rugrat Anklebiter said:


> $500 no strings attached. $500 having to be spent at the most expensive car repair place possible. The VW Dealership.


I used mine for an intake manifold  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AJB said:


> I understand what you are saying, but the buyback number was supposed ot be based on pre-scandal market value. Your son's 17k-5k is 12k. Which is a bit short of what he probably could have sold his car for back in August 2015.


No it isn't, the buy backs are based on HIGH pre scandal values. But yes keep ignoring what the cars were actually selling for at the time :screwy:


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

I guess individual situations may vary, but I'm getting 28K for a car I purchased 5 years ago for 34K. That's a fantastic deal and probably 8-10K higher than what I could have received for the car pre-scandal. Financially this is turning out to be the best car purchase I have ever made. It's not a windfall, but I feel it's more than fair. I just wish the process would hurry up before I wreck the car and get nothing, or worse- rear end someone and get shredded by my shrapnel-filled airbag.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I dunno, I paid $13,500 for my 2012 JSW 2 months after the scandal broke. Pretty high if you are saying the cars were only selling for $9-$11k pre-scandal.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

.yuk. said:


> I dunno, I paid $13,500 for my 2012 JSW 2 months after the scandal broke. Pretty high if you are saying the cars were only selling for $9-$11k pre-scandal.


What mileage and options? 

13,500 was about what say 40-60K DSG cars were going for right before it broke for high private and small used car lot sales. Maybe 14,500-15k for a dealer or carmax with the exception of the one for 18k (nav,roof,dsg, and 86k :screwy


Personally 13,500 for a 2012 unless it was a DSG with at least the roof and low miles was very high 2 months into the scandal. 

My 2012 manual with 82k just did 80k service brand new tires, perfectly detailed, and only 25k on the DPF  was listed for about 13,500 when this broke 12k would have taken it on sept 17th.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

My wife puts a ton of miles on her car and will be in next mileage bracket by the time this goes live - she will have between 25k-30k miles (24k now)

As it is now her buyback amount on her 2014 will be $30,476 - considering the reduced price on her 0 mile "leftover" we bought in late June 2015 was down to $26,500 and I think somewhere around $29k we paid out the door our buyback amount is more than we paid for it - 

I'm not complaining, even though we just lost $500 since we did a long road trip to the OBX -


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

The only reason I'm gonna make out is because I'm turning in a stripped out chassis.

If my wife hadn't backed into a post, scratched the entire side down to the metal on something I may have kept it, but just last week the DMF is making the helicopter noise of death. So yeah.

Everything on the VW I can safely unbolt, especially what I put on it after market like the GTi steering wheel, rns 510, highline BCM and 9wZ ( that I never got paid/reimbursed for from the settlement ) is getting taken off.

I may even just take the steering wheel off as I'm dropping the car at the dealer. Let it be their problem.

Probably will use the roadside assistance to have it towed in, just because I can.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Aseras said:


> The only reason I'm gonna make out is because I'm turning in a stripped out chassis.
> 
> If my wife hadn't backed into a post, scratched the entire side down to the metal on something I may have kept it, but just last week the DMF is making the helicopter noise of death. So yeah.
> 
> ...


Good luck, let us know how it turns out for you.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

Aseras said:


> The only reason I'm gonna make out is because I'm turning in a stripped out chassis.
> 
> If my wife hadn't backed into a post, scratched the entire side down to the metal on something I may have kept it, but just last week the DMF is making the helicopter noise of death. So yeah.
> 
> ...


Good luck with your buyback goals of 2016/2017.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

So to add my .02 I paid $28,5xx for our loaded JSW and getting $27K for it (plus the $500 Debit Card and $500 VW/Dealer $$ that went to our 40K mile service at the time) and have almost 5K miles to use it if we choose to let the dogs drool in it more without any mileage hit..... We hate that we are going to be parting ways with our JSW which has been great and if it had more rear legroom we might have held on longer. Financially it DOESN'T makes sense for us to keep it and risk an accident for BB is $13K on a good day.

Did VW $h*t the bed? You know it! 

Are we buying another (modern) VW? - No time soon, if ever!

When is my check getting here? - Not soon enough!


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

I spent my VW gift cards on a timing belt job so my TDI would survive until the buyback. The only upside was being able to buy the parts from VW then have a local shop (vwvortex sponsor too) get the labor money.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Aseras said:


> The only reason I'm gonna make out is because I'm turning in a stripped out chassis.
> 
> If my wife hadn't backed into a post, scratched the entire side down to the metal on something I may have kept it, but just last week the DMF is making the helicopter noise of death. So yeah.
> 
> ...


Um yeah, good luck w/ that 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

Rugrat Anklebiter said:


> $500 no strings attached. $500 having to be spent at the most expensive car repair place possible. The VW Dealership.


We bought a new windshield, and $280 worth of castrol 5W30 VW507.. no ragrets


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

Rugrat Anklebiter said:


> $500 no strings attached. $500 having to be spent at the most expensive car repair place possible. The VW Dealership.


We bought a new windshield, and $280 worth of castrol 5W30 VW507.. no ragrets

i take that back..that new windshield chipped and cracked 3 months later from another gravel truck. Should have just bought $500 worth of castrol 530!

ours also has started the DMF rattle on cold start and sometimes when coming to an abrupt start. It has been parked since May..just need to make 1 last trip, 10 miles to the dealer in november!


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> No it isn't, the buy backs are based on HIGH pre scandal values. But yes keep ignoring what the cars were actually selling for at the time :screwy:


Chris, I'm not here to argue with you and not sure where you are located. But back in August of 2015, my wife's 2011 JSW with 73k on it. Asking prices here in NJ were in the 13-15k range depending actual condition when we looked into selling the car. I'm getting 12k for the car from the buyback. Again I feel its low by about $1000 -$1500 and based on the asking prices of cars locally my numbers are accurate. 

My feeling is that the buyback numbers feel good to lots of people because of where the value of these car are now. Yes I understand, some people with low mileage cars are making out very well with the deal, but for those of us who have higher mileage cars that statistically speaking TDI's had a higher resale value, I think are getting the short end of the stick. If they wanted to make me fee "whole" and they really needs these cars off the road, they should provide a deal "too good to be true" as they say, unfortunately, the one presented to me is not.


----------



## hayde89 (Jun 22, 2015)

AJB said:


> Chris, I'm not here to argue with you and not sure where you are located. But back in August of 2015, my wife's 2011 JSW with 73k on it. Asking prices here in NJ were in the 13-15k range depending actual condition when we looked into selling the car. I'm getting 12k for the car from the buyback. Again I feel its low by about $1000 -$1500 and based on the asking prices of cars locally my numbers are accurate.
> 
> My feeling is that the buyback numbers feel good to lots of people because of where the value of these car are now. Yes I understand, some people with low mileage cars are making out very well with the deal, but for those of us who have higher mileage cars that statistically speaking TDI's had a higher resale value, I think are getting the short end of the stick. If they wanted to make me fee "whole" and they really needs these cars off the road, they should provide a deal "too good to be true" as they say, unfortunately, the one presented to me is not.


You drove the car for an entire year. I have a 2009 JSW with 237,000 it was only worth 6k when this all broke out. I am getting 11k. I don't get how people do not take in to account that even though they are getting Pre Scandel pricing it is also taking in to account that once again you drove the car for a year. Maybe you're not making out like a bandit but your price seems pretty on par to me.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> Good luck, let us know how it turns out for you.





DUBPL8 said:


> Good luck with your buyback goals of 2016/2017.





2ohgti said:


> Um yeah, good luck w/ that
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't why you could not strip the car of useful parts...... It just has to drive under its own power. Condition is not relevant.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AJB said:


> Chris, I'm not here to argue with you and not sure where you are located. But back in August of 2015, my wife's 2011 JSW with 73k on it. Asking prices here in NJ were in the 13-15k range depending actual condition when we looked into selling the car.


No they were not that price range for a 2011 with that mileage, sorry you are delusional. No one is arguing you are just pulling numbers out of thin air and I'm pointing that out. 

The dealer offer I mentioned? PA right outside philly so same region as you. So *pre* scandal trade in on my 2012 was ~9k.

13-15k for a 2011 with 73k was mid to high retail, and super high private sale at that time.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

hayde89 said:


> *You drove the car for an entire year*. I have a 2009 JSW with 237,000 it was only worth 6k when this all broke out. *I am getting 11k. *I don't get how people do not take in to account that even though they are getting Pre Scandel pricing it is also taking in to account that once again you drove the car for a year. Maybe you're not making out like a bandit but your price seems pretty on par to me.


Drive the car for a year? That wasn't my decision. VW is dragging their feet. Sure we are getting a bit of a break on the rolling back the miles, but I'll be into the next tier in another month or two..
Does the 11k include the modification ~5k money?



chris86vw said:


> No they were not that price range for a 2011 with that mileage, sorry you are delusional. No one is arguing you are just pulling numbers out of thin air and I'm pointing that out.
> 
> The dealer offer I mentioned? PA right outside philly so same region as you. So *pre* scandal trade in on my 2012 was ~9k.
> 
> *13-15k for a 2011 with 73k was mid to high retail,* and super high private sale at that time.


So you just admitted I'm not pulling numbers out of thin air. I'm just telling you what I saw for prices. Nothing made up. And as we all know TDI "used" to hold their value. And trade in value of 9k? Add at-least 3k for an actual selling price for private party or dealer retail asking price. I'm not talking about dealer trade in values. Everyone knows they are low. If you want to take a bath on selling a car, trade it in. if you want to get market value sell it privately.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AJB said:


> I'm not talking about dealer trade in values.


You are though, you said vw is using the lowest common denominator of fair trade in value. But you are trying to say you should be getting closer to retail.. which you actually are.

I've shown you what actual fair trade in was and what retail was.

You are getting your panties in a bunch over the words used in the valuation and ignoring the ACTUAL valuation. 

The base before adjustment price for your 2011 is ~2500 over someone with a 2010 and only ~1000 under what someone with a 2012 gets, you are actually in the group absolutely making out the best here. (used same mileage for all so that is a factor but not huge)

Yes 9k was the offer I got on my 2012.. not 2011, 2012... So take your 3k and that puts my 2012 at 12k by YOUR numbers (adding 3k on) of what it should be retail and you are upset that a year after you are getting 2015 retail prices for a 2012 on your 2011? Remember at 73k on your 4 year old car it was high miles and couldn't be CPO'd that is a huge ding in value.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

AJB said:


> ... Asking prices here in NJ were in the 13-15k range ...


ASKing price isn't necessarily what it actually SOLD for ...

I've yet to see a case in which the bottom line buyback number, the number that they'll write you a check for in return for handing them the keys and the ownership, is not above what you could have bought a comparable car for with that age and that mileage pre-scandal.

Keep in mind also that the buyback offer essentially locks in what the car is worth until sometime in late 2018 when the whole process is supposed to be done. By that time you will have been able to get another couple of years of use out of it essentially for free (balanced against the risk of a collision or major mechanical failure which makes it no longer eligible to be bought back). Someone who owns a 2015 model will have gotten 3 years use out of the car and will get back almost their purchase price and in some cases a little more. ($20,000 x 0.717 x 1.2 + 3000 = $20,208 ... obviously this doesn't include the mileage adjustment)

Yes, there are a lot of people who are delusional about what they think their car is worth.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

GoFaster said:


> ASKing price isn't necessarily what it actually SOLD for ...


so much this, I even noted that I had mine out for about 13,500 and would have taken 12. I almost took 9 and the bike frame shortly after it broke which I"m glad I didn't now 



> I've yet to see a case in which the bottom line buyback number, the number that they'll write you a check for in return for handing them the keys and the ownership, is not above what you could have bought a comparable car for with that age and that mileage pre-scandal.


His is 5k or more than he is crying about, don't forget that even if he wants us to. He keeps saying 12k for the car because he is taking off the we fkd up money. He is really getting 17k+ for the car...


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

OMG guys....

Reading these last few pages of everyone bitching and whining has me SMH. To those of you that are complaining, why do you think VW owes you anything in the first place?
(Lots of complaining over 2-3K difference in what people are thinking they are owed, from what I've been reading)

If you don't agree with what the settlement is, then don't participate and just keep your car as you would have before all this BS hit the fan. 

(Most) TDI owners, and I say most because the percentage of people that keep their TDI's for awhile never planned on selling them in the first place. (Like me)

I for one will be participating in the buyback option. When else can you drive a car for free for 3-4 years and get ALL of your money back? I honestly wanted to keep this car for as long as i could, but can't pass up this opportunity. I'll most likely turn around and buy a TSI Golf, or the All-track when my time comes to do so. 

Maybe we will have the opportunity to take the buyback, have VW "Fix" the car, then buy it back for less? Who knows, I'm getting way off base now.

My advice, relax and lets just see how this plays out when the buybacks and "fixes" start happening.

You're all getting your panties in a bunch.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

Saggio44 said:


> OMG guys....
> 
> Reading these last few pages of everyone bitching and whining has me SMH.
> 
> You're all getting your panties in a bunch.


Couldn't agree more. 

Honestly, the only thing I've learned is that chris will beat a dead horse back to life and then to death again and finally, how to unsubscribe to a thread. I haven't checked on this debacle for weeks now and absolutely nothing has changed. With the arguing or VW and both are hilarious in a sad mime kind of way, single-tear like and all. :wave:

And I know my post has zero relevance. I also know that's why this thread is the perfect place for it. Not that my permission is needed, but carry on arguing in circles.


----------



## hayde89 (Jun 22, 2015)

That's an all in price. I don't know what else to say to you. These things take time, It's a legal matter. It is what is it doesn't help to complain here because no one is going to agree with you.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Saggio44 said:


> OMG guys....
> 
> Reading these last few pages of everyone bitching and whining has me SMH. To those of you that are complaining, why do you think VW owes you anything in the first place?
> (Lots of complaining over 2-3K difference in what people are thinking they are owed, from what I've been reading)
> ...


This what I'm saying. I think it's a great deal. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

What is the last month of the deal?
I am going to drive the wheels off of her for every trip or drive we make until then.

Seems to make the most financial sense.
And I still love her:heart:!

CP


----------



## andyA6 (Nov 10, 2000)

Hmmm... We bought our '13 Golf in '14 for 21,000, buyback will be 20,452 or so, I think that is ok. With the restitution we will have a nice down payment for a nice new GTI.


----------



## danyanda (Sep 21, 2007)

I'm not gonna say the buy back price is unfair. I've got a base manual 2010 with around 110k miles on it and if my math is right my buyback would be about $14.5K. That is certainly fair, probably more than fair. It doesn't knock my socks off though.

The issue I have is that at that price point I am not sure if it is worth it to me. At under $15k I would have to go for something used, and while it would probably be a couple of years newer and have fewer miles I know I won't get the mileage that I'm getting now. Also, I've owned the car since new so I know it hasn't been abused and has been regularly serviced. I am leary about inheriting someone else's issues so the buyback number doesn't make me immediately want to sell.

I'm gonna wait and keep driving it for a while. I have decided not to do a couple of mods (rear view camera that is sitting in my spare room and a couple of other things that would be purely aesthetic) since I may not keep it forever. If not fix ever happens I may keep it, I may wait til the last minute to sell back or get a better offer, or if the dpf or something else major starts to worry me off it goes.

Long story short though, my buy back, while higher than market value, doesn't have me beating down the door to sell back.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Rugrat Anklebiter said:


> $500 having to be spent at the most expensive car repair place possible. The VW Dealership.


Speaking of the $500 VW dealer card, does anyone know if that can be used at a VW dealership towards the purchase of a car - new or used? My son hasn't used his and if/when he brings in his buyback, I was thinking he should shop around VW dealers if that card can be used as partial payment. Otherwise, he isn't sure how to best use it. No one needs $500 worth of VW swag. Maybe $500 worth of parts that can be resold on eBay?


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

spockcat said:


> Speaking of the $500 VW dealer card, does anyone know if that can be used at a VW dealership towards the purchase of a car - new or used? My son hasn't used his and if/when he brings in his buyback, I was thinking he should shop around VW dealers if that card can be used as partial payment. Otherwise, he isn't sure how to best use it. No one needs $500 worth of VW swag. Maybe $500 worth of parts that can be resold on eBay?


Yes- AFAIK you can use the card toward another purchase. That's what I plan to use mine for, assuming I get another Audi.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> And I know my post has zero relevance.


At least you acknowledge you're a worthless troll with a chip on his shoulder for some reason, that's a start :thumbup:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> Speaking of the $500 VW dealer card, does anyone know if that can be used at a VW dealership towards the purchase of a car - new or used? My son hasn't used his and if/when he brings in his buyback, I was thinking he should shop around VW dealers if that card can be used as partial payment. Otherwise, he isn't sure how to best use it. No one needs $500 worth of VW swag. Maybe $500 worth of parts that can be resold on eBay?


I used mine at a combo VW/Volvo dealer who rings you up at the Volvo dealer on a terminal separate from anything else, as in just punch in a dollar amount and swipe the card. They really have no clue what you are doing for all they know the dealer took the cash and wrote you a check, but you didn't buy anything. Not suggesting it just saying there is no connection to what it was used for as long as it went through an approved terminal. Shouldn't be a problem using it for a new car. 

Two cars meant I had 1000 to spend on the dealer only cards and I had a wholesale account, 65 bucks left I think? I realize your son is getting rid of the car but there is plenty of stuff that you could get to add up to 500 bucks. Granted I was building one of my engines at the time but I blew through it pretty quick just getting little gaskets and seals, I got the 20k parts for my 2015 and that was likely over 100 bucks for everything alone. On he swag side I got the accessory sideskirts for my 2015 as well, something I would not have normally bought but since it was pretty much monopoly money went for it this time. Someone keeping it in need of tires could make out pretty good too.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

andyA6 said:


> Hmmm... We bought our '13 Golf in '14 for 21,000, buyback will be 20,452 or so, I think that is ok. With the restitution we will have a nice down payment for a nice new GTI.


Just remember that the buyback number includes the restitution payment too.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> What mileage and options?


I bought a White 2012 JSW. It had 39k, 6 speed with Pano and fake Leather. Everything but Nav. $13,500.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

chris86vw said:


> At least you acknowledge you're a worthless troll with a chip on his shoulder for some reason, that's a start :thumbup:


And just how is it up there "above the fray"? As if. :laugh:


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Holy crap, someone is actually (possibly) going to jail for this. I don't believe it. Of course, this guy is probably just the fall guy and no one of any real importance will go down, but who knows?

http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/article/VW-engineer-pleads-guilty-in-emissions-case-will-9212561.php


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Holy crap, someone is actually (possibly) going to jail for this. I don't believe it. Of course, this guy is probably just the fall guy and no one of any real importance will go down, but who knows?
> 
> http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/article/VW-engineer-pleads-guilty-in-emissions-case-will-9212561.php




*
VW engineer pleads guilty in U.S. court to role in emissions cheating scandal*



> WASHINGTON -- A Volkswagen engineer pleaded guilty today in a U.S. court for his role in rigging emissions software on 2.0-liter diesels sold in the U.S., marking the first criminal charge in the U.S. government’s probe into the VW scandal.
> 
> The engineer, James Robert Liang, was named in a grand jury indictment filed in U.S. District Court in Detroit in June that was unsealed today.
> 
> ...


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> this guy is probably just the fall guy


You really think a VW employee with a Chinese surname would be a fall guy?


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Someone had to take one for the team.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

http://jalopnik.com/vw-made-its-defeat-device-more-potent-to-save-on-warran-1786442999

Yikes... allegedly... that software update VW came out with last year was to make sure that the defeat devices were working *better*!! They wanted to make sure that the cars weren't in 'testing mode' longer than they needed to be because that was causing premature wear on emissions parts... and more warranty claims...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

E CODE said:


> Yikes... allegedly... that software update VW came out with last year was to make sure that the defeat devices were working *better*!! They wanted to make sure that the cars weren't in 'testing mode' longer than they needed to be because that was causing premature wear on emissions parts... and more warranty claims...


That was actually made known pretty early on in the scandal, but I guess they are only making these things official now that visibility from the public has died way down.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

AZGolf said:


> That was actually made known pretty early on in the scandal, but I guess they are only making these things official now that visibility from the public has died way down.


I must have missed it... I didn't get that software update, but now for the sake of my emissions equipment, maybe I should!


----------



## rlfletch (Jun 11, 2000)

Alrighty then. I have now reached my limit of cognitive dissonance when it comes to all this bull****. I am a longtime VW/Audi fan and am a strong proponent of their driving dynamics and “Soul.” I am done with them now. My S4 will be the last in a line of 7 vehicles I have purchased from them. I can not justify supporting yet another corporation that has no problem sticking it to the customer/public in the rabid pursuit of profits.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

E CODE said:


> http://jalopnik.com/vw-made-its-defeat-device-more-potent-to-save-on-warran-1786442999
> 
> Yikes... allegedly... that software update VW came out with last year was to make sure that the defeat devices were working *better*!! They wanted to make sure that the cars weren't in 'testing mode' longer than they needed to be because that was causing premature wear on emissions parts... and more warranty claims...


and I said all along several of these "updates" that were forced on us at the dealer were complete BS....and worse, the adblue started to disappear like water evaporating in the desert sun at noon on July 15th! 

they need to ad the 3.0L TDIs to this settlement


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/u-charges-volkswagen-engineer-diesel-145150439.html



> A Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) engineer pleaded guilty on Friday to helping the German automaker evade U.S. emission standards, and his lawyer said he would cooperate with federal authorities in their criminal probe.





> Liang could face up to five years in prison but may get a much lighter sentence if the government finds he provided substantial assistance.


Will be interesting to see if he rats out more of them to keep himself out of prison or if everything he knows has already been used.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

.LSinLV. said:


> and I said all along several of these "updates" that were forced on us at the dealer were complete BS....and worse, the adblue started to disappear like water evaporating in the desert sun at noon on July 15th!
> 
> they need to ad the 3.0L TDIs to this settlement


Yeah they do. I'm really happy. Especially considering our JSW has 87k and really hasn't cost much in repairs. Just cost of tires, oil changes, intake manifold, filters and at 80k brakes. 
The wife is trying to decide what she wants-a used 2.5 JSW, new Jetta, or used Volvo S60. I want the S60, but it's going to be her car. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## andyA6 (Nov 10, 2000)

E CODE said:


> Just remember that the buyback number includes the restitution payment too.



Nope, buyback plus restitution.


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

andyA6 said:


> Nope, buyback plus restitution.


Nope. Your buyback number already includes your restitution payment. You don't add anything else. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## andyA6 (Nov 10, 2000)

jen_madcity said:


> Nope. Your buyback number already includes your restitution payment. You don't add anything else.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I hope you are wrong and I hope I am right..... Did I miss something?

It clearly says in the paper work we got buyback plus restitution payment.

Edit

Just read the cover letter again, it states "in addition to that cash payment, you may also choose between an emission modification and a buyback /lease termination"


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

You are wrong. The stated buyback amount includes the restitution payment.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

andyA6 said:


> I hope you are wrong and I hope I am right..... Did I miss something?
> 
> It clearly says in the paper work we got buyback plus restitution payment.
> 
> ...


You are correct in that you get the restitution, plus buyback - however, the restitution amount is already baked into the buyback amount column that is on page 25 of the package. 

So yes, you get both, but just make sure you aren't adding both columns together.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

.LSinLV. said:


> and I said all along several of these "updates" that were forced on us at the dealer were complete BS....and worse, the adblue started to disappear like water evaporating in the desert sun at noon on July 15th!


Those two things are contradictory.

If they made the emissions equipment functions less then it injected less adblue, you would not have been using more. If it was using more then the defeat would have been implemented less.


There seems to be no evidence that they increased the dosing on the 3.0 and the gen2 2.0 applications with the update.


----------



## vroom96 (May 16, 2008)

E CODE said:


> http://jalopnik.com/vw-made-its-defeat-device-more-potent-to-save-on-warran-1786442999
> 
> Yikes... allegedly... that software update VW came out with last year was to make sure that the defeat devices were working *better*!! They wanted to make sure that the cars weren't in 'testing mode' longer than they needed to be because that was causing premature wear on emissions parts... and more warranty claims...


I hadn't heard this before but someone else said this was already known. I wonder if this was factored in to the current agreement. If this is new, I hope they amend the agreement and make VW pay for this.

This does really piss me off though. Our current Sportwagen has served us well but my wife doesn't like the passenger seat and I'm bored with the looks. VW doesn't have anything that interests us. However, I have always liked Audis and was interested in looking into one to replace our Sportwagen. But after this revelation, I am not even going to bother with anything related to VW.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Yep, I'm done with any near term possible VW product and honestly this TDI is probably the last water cooled VW I'll own at this point.

We pick up our Forester on Saturday and the JSW will be parked almost entirely until VW is ready to gimme my $$$


----------



## BudPytko (Apr 22, 2012)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Holy crap, someone is actually (possibly) going to jail for this. I don't believe it. Of course, this guy is probably just the fall guy and no one of any real importance will go down, but who knows?
> 
> http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/ar...ads-guilty-in-emissions-case-will-9212561.php


He won't go to jail - BUT, he may be deported as he is NOT a US citizen.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW sued by German states of Hesse, Baden-Wuerttemberg over diesel scandal*



> FRANKFURT -- The German states of Hesse and Baden-Wuerttemberg said on Friday they would sue Volkswagen Group for damages over its emissions-test cheating scandal, joining a group of equities investors also seeking compensation.
> 
> VW shares plunged last September after the automaker admitted to cheating U.S. diesel-emissions tests, hitting the state coffers and pension funds of German states among other investors.
> 
> ...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

BudPytko said:


> He won't go to jail - BUT, he may be deported as he is NOT a US citizen.


You really think they won't actually jail him? I'm asking honestly, because I don't know how we normally handle white collar crimes for non-citizens. I know they get the kid gloves, but this article states "the plea agreement calls for a sentence above five years in prison." Again, I'm no expert in how the government implements such things, but that would be pretty impressive to get sentenced to more than 5 years in jail and then just hop on a jet home to Germany. Another reason I have my doubts that will happen is that the whole point of the plea was to get him to cooperate in the investigation. It's hard to get someone to continue to testify when they have left the country and aren't subject to penalties nor trying to earn early release for good behavior anymore.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW being sued by BlackRock as more investors, governments take legal action*



> BlackRock Inc., the world’s largest money manager, is joining a growing list of investors and governments lining up to sue Volkswagen AG almost a year after the German carmaker admitted to duping emissions tests for as many as 11 million diesel cars.
> 
> “On behalf of their investors, a number of BlackRock-managed collective investment schemes are pursuing, alongside other institutional investors, legal action against Volkswagen," BlackRock said Thursday in an e-mailed statement.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW diesel-cheat probe widens in U.S. to include Bosch, report says
Supplier IAV also may be part of investigation, source says*



> WASHINGTON -- U.S. prosecutors are investigating whether Germany’s Robert Bosch GmbH, which provided software to Volkswagen AG, conspired with the automaker to engineer diesel cars that would cheat U.S. emissions testing, two people familiar with the matter told Bloomberg.
> 
> Among the questions the Justice Department is asking in the criminal probe, one of them said, is whether automakers in addition to VW used Bosch software to skirt environmental standards. Bosch, which is also under U.S. civil probe and German inquiry, is cooperating in investigations and can’t comment on them, said spokesman Rene Ziegler.
> 
> ...


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

Documents are able to be uploaded in the claims portal. I did mine tonight. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Audi tech chief faces suspension over emissions scandal, report says*



> Audi's head of technical development will be suspended this week as part of the investigation into an emissions scandal, Germany's Bild am Sonntag newspaper reported citing sources.
> 
> Investigations by Jones Day have shown that Stefan Knirsch, who is a board member at the Volkswagen Group subsidiary, knew about the use of cheat software in 3.0-liter diesel engines and gave a false promise under oath, the newspaper said on Sunday.
> 
> ...


----------



## romano258 (Jun 14, 2007)

spockcat said:


> *VW being sued by BlackRock as more investors, governments take legal action*


This is one reason I am taking the buyout asap, no matter how tempting it is to keep driving it for 2 years. Not sure how long VW, big as it is, can keep absorbing all these lawsuits.


----------



## alanaround (Jun 8, 2011)

I guess those of us in Canada are waiting for the October (18th) and December court dates to find out more? Has anyone purchased a replacement? I'm not in a hurry, but just curious what others are thinking. My dealer tried to get me out of mine during my last service, saying they had more cash on the hood to get me out of my TDI, but there isn't really anything they offer at the moment that i'm interested in (Alltrack or new 7-seater are options in the future). TDI is due a timing belt service next..


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

romano258 said:


> This is one reason I am taking the buyout asap, no matter how tempting it is to keep driving it for 2 years. Not sure how long VW, big as it is, can keep absorbing all these lawsuits.


this is a good point since i have been battling it out in my head about buyout asap, or drive it another 2 yrs then do the buyout to take advantage of using a depreciation free-ish car.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

romano258 said:


> This is one reason I am taking the buyout asap, no matter how tempting it is to keep driving it for 2 years. Not sure how long VW, big as it is, can keep absorbing all these lawsuits.


Same thinking here. I want to be at the front of the line in case all this other pending litigation slows or halts the buybacks. I want to get clear of this whole thing asap.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

alanaround said:


> I guess those of us in Canada are waiting for the October (18th) and December court dates to find out more? Has anyone purchased a replacement? I'm not in a hurry, but just curious what others are thinking. My dealer tried to get me out of mine during my last service, saying they had more cash on the hood to get me out of my TDI, but there isn't really anything they offer at the moment that i'm interested in (Alltrack or new 7-seater are options in the future). TDI is due a timing belt service next..


Plenty of people have bought something new based on the Facebook group for Canadian owners... And yes, there should be some kind of info coming out in a month... whether that is actual info, or just a small update outlining next steps like last time depends entirely on whether an initial settlement has been agreed to or not by then. 

The good news is that VW has now publicly stated that they are working on a settlement (as opposed to simply that they were 'working to make things right') so we know there is at least something being cooked up. I doubt it will be the full $4,100,000,000 that the lawyers are asking for though...


----------



## clintg60-16v (Dec 13, 2002)

alanaround said:


> I guess those of us in Canada are waiting for the October (18th) and December court dates to find out more? Has anyone purchased a replacement? I'm not in a hurry, but just curious what others are thinking. My dealer tried to get me out of mine during my last service, saying they had more cash on the hood to get me out of my TDI, but there isn't really anything they offer at the moment that i'm interested in (Alltrack or new 7-seater are options in the future). TDI is due a timing belt service next..


I purchased a '13 CPO R. My TDI had been mothballed, but now the TDI's back on short-term duty (thanks to the Nashville gas shortage).


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

TDI was replaced and demoted just in time for Taco Tuesday...










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

VeeDubMan54 said:


> TDI was replaced and demoted just in time for Taco Tuesday...


wait, does your TDI have a "genuine high emissions VW" sticker on the back window? and you replaced it with a Tacoma?? 










unfortunately, my Tacoma doesn't fit in the garage


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

Priorities change... at least the Tacoma owns its economy.
Fit is tight; a long bed wouldn't have fit but my wife has the "big side" of the garage with her SUV.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

For those who think they are going to get their gen 1 or gen 2 car fixed. The fix in Europe is either just a computer change or/and a mesh screen by the air filter. 

*VW has fixed less than 10% of rigged diesel cars in Europe*



> BERLIN -- Volkswagen Group is making slow progress on fixing cars equipped with illicit engine software in Europe, having repaired less than 10 percent of the 8.5 million affected models, the company said on Monday.
> 
> Germany's KBA motor vehicle authority has approved proposed fixes that would resolve the problem in about 5.1 million vehicles, said Manfred Bort, the VW manager in charge of the European diesel recall necessitated by the emissions-cheating scandal that has engulfed the company.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

spockcat said:


> For those who think they are going to get their gen 1 or gen 2 car fixed. The fix in Europe is either just a computer change or/and a mesh screen by the air filter.
> 
> *VW has fixed less than 10% of rigged diesel cars in Europe*


Our emissions are much tighter - and the EPA/CARB don't want to see accelerated wear of emissions components (they have to last 120k), or decreased performance.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Our emissions are much tighter - and the EPA/CARB don't want to see accelerated wear of emissions components (they have to last 120k), or decreased performance.



Right. And although this European fix is relatively simple, VW has only been able to fix 10% of the cars. How long do you think a complicated fix would take them?


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

*Report: Most Brands’ Diesels Worse than VW
*



> Every major car manufacturer is selling diesel cars that fail to meet EU air pollution limits on the road in Europe.” That’s the conclusion from a European environmental watch dog called Transport & Environment following a study of European diesel vehicles.
> 
> Of these, Volkswagen is among the least polluting, the report finds. Under Euro 6 regulations (the latest legal limits) Volkswagen is at the bottom of the list of polluters, T&E finds.
> 
> Euro 6 regulations allow for 0.08g per kilometer of NOx, a pollutant that has been linked to 23,500 early deaths per year in the UK alone, according The Guardian.


http://www.vwvortex.com/news/volkswagen-news/report-most-brands-diesels-worse-than-vw/


----------



## dsldub (Dec 18, 2003)

alanaround said:


> TDI is due a timing belt service next..


That's my dilemma. I'm there already and was going to use the CAD$1000 to do it, but now I see it as wasted money. My timing belt is due NOW, but I'm trying to see what's next with the settlements and stretch it a bit. 
I'm in Canada btw.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

dsldub said:


> That's my dilemma. I'm there already and was going to use the CAD$1000 to do it, but now I see it as wasted money. My timing belt is due NOW, but I'm trying to see what's next with the settlements and *stretch it a bit*.
> I'm in Canada btw.


Pun intended?


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

spockcat said:


> For those who think they are going to get their gen 1 or gen 2 car fixed. The fix in Europe is either just a computer change or/and a mesh screen by the air filter.


The mesh screen IIRC doesn't even apply to the 2.0L TDIs. I believe we already have them. The screen was for the 1.6L TDI that we don't get here.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

romano258 said:


> This is one reason I am taking the buyout asap, no matter how tempting it is to keep driving it for 2 years. Not sure how long VW, big as it is, can keep absorbing all these lawsuits.


If the buyouts get to the point that they start taking cars and cutting checks that means the escrow account is 100% funded and VW has no legal right to touch that money for ANY reason, it is not their money anymore at that point. As cars get fixed or bought back they can only withdraw the money that would be greater than the payout for the remaining cars on the road.

Of all the parts that are possibly confusing in the settlement documents this is one that is completely in plain English.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Hajduk said:


> *Report: Most Brands’ Diesels Worse than VW*
> 
> http://www.vwvortex.com/news/volkswagen-news/report-most-brands-diesels-worse-than-vw/





From the article said:


> T&E argues that these cars exceed NOx limits as soon as they get out onto the road. That’s because the tests don’t account for cold weather, diesel particulate filters cleaning themselves, and more.


The fact that NEDC has little to do with reality, the exemptions for "cold" weather, which can be as warm as 10C / 50F, below which the emissions systems are shut off, and the fact that the regen cycle of the DPF is excluded from emissions testing are all reasons why there needs to be an extreme overhaul of the NEDC tests. The EPA tests have similar flaws though, as the EPA reportedly allows emissions to be shut off at low temperatures and also excludes DPF regen from test results.

If the intention is to make these standards honest and usable then they need to do away with the cold weather exemptions and require some sort of validation showing how much the decrease in performance is as the DPF clogs, followed by measuring the emissions during a DPF regen. That's of course without even addressing the other problem - a regen cycle can start only to have the car turned off because it has reached its destination already. For cars used in short trips, they might never be able to do DPF regen at all, meaning their filters are just junk all the time.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

spockcat said:


> Right. And although this European fix is relatively simple, VW has only been able to fix 10% of the cars. How long do you think a complicated fix would take them?


Because the Europeans aren't getting any incentive to "fix" theirs - I'm supposed to get $7k LOL

But you are absolutely right - with a more complicated emissions system here and VW's lack of urgency in my opinion, we are actively shopping other vehicles now - I fear they will drag it out for 2 years


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW investors seek 8.2 billion euros in damages over emissions scandal*



> BERLIN -- Volkswagen Group faces 8.2 billion euros ($9.14 billion) in damage claims from investors over its emissions scandal in the legal district where the carmaker is based, a German court said.
> 
> A total of about 1,400 lawsuits have been lodged at the regional court in Brunswick near Volkswagen's Wolfsburg headquarters, the court said today.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW pledges to fix all diesel cars in Europe by late 2017, EU says*



> BRUSSELS -- Volkswagen Group pledged to fix all cars equipped with illicit engine software in Europe by autumn 2017, the European Commission said on Wednesday after talks with the carmaker to ensure it is doing enough for affected clients.
> 
> At a meeting with consumer Commissioner Vera Jourova, VW board member Francisco Javier Garcia Sanz committed to a plan to inform customers by year's end of the need for a technical fix to bring diesel cars into line with EU caps on toxic nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions, Jourova's spokesman said.
> 
> ...


----------



## rick8018 (Jan 3, 2001)

Well, I uploaded my documents today. They are now, "under review." We'll see how it goes from here. It did feel good to be doing _something._


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

rick8018 said:


> Well, I uploaded my documents today. They are now, "under review." We'll see how it goes from here. It did feel good to be doing _something._


Did mine 4 days ago, still under review. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gw204 (Apr 18, 2005)

rick8018 said:


> Well, I uploaded my documents today. They are now, "under review." We'll see how it goes from here. It did feel good to be doing _something._


I haven't every single page of this thread, but have been watching it pretty closely since the 9/18 preliminary approval. What documents are you referring to? Were they to exclude yourself from the settlement?


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

gw204 said:


> I haven't every single page of this thread, but have been watching it pretty closely since the 9/18 preliminary approval. What documents are you referring to? Were they to exclude yourself from the settlement?


pic of license, registration, front and back of title.


----------



## SoLo2pointO (Jul 12, 2001)

PolishSasquatch said:


> pic of license, registration, front and back of title.


Or a consent form for them to access your loan information if the vehicle is still financed.


----------



## rick8018 (Jan 3, 2001)

gw204 said:


> I haven't every single page of this thread, but have been watching it pretty closely since the 9/18 preliminary approval. What documents are you referring to? Were they to exclude yourself from the settlement?


If you are taking the buyback on your TDI (as I am) and you haven't visited the vwgoa.com online claims site in a while go check it. There are six or seven questions to answer and then "they" will tell you what pictures/documents to upload/mail/fax. I had to take pictures of everything with my phone and email the pics to myself.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Winterkorn more closely involved with VW's cheating, report says*



> Volkswagen Group's former CEO, Martin Winterkorn, approved a plan to disclose only partial information on the automaker’s software rigging to U.S. authorities seven weeks before the scandal broke last September, Bild am Sonntag newspaper reported, citing newly uncovered documents.
> 
> On July 28, 2015, Winterkorn signed off on talking points prepared ahead of an informal meeting with regulators in the U.S., at which VW officials would "partially" disclose details about diesel software that cheated on emissions, the report cited the documents as showing.
> 
> ...


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

Does anybody believe for one second that all these senior guys were not fully aware of this thing all along? The idea that a couple of rogue employees engineered this whole program is laughable.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

bdc12 said:


> Does anybody believe for one second that all these senior guys were not fully aware of this thing all along? The idea that a couple of rogue employees engineered this whole program is laughable.


Especially when one of the lead engineers who has already plead guilty was based in the US. This was an international operation across multiple engine families, multiple models, for multiple brands and implemented world-wide, which meant it had to be approved by the highest levels of management.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW scandal spreading to Audi risks hitting automaker's top profit generator*



> FRANKFURT/BERLIN -- Volkswagen Group's attempts to contain the fallout from the emissions cheating suffered a setback after Audi, the group's biggest profit generator, lost a key engineer tainted by the scandal.
> 
> Development chief Stefan Knirsch left the manufacturer with immediate effect this week after a probe showed he was aware of the manipulation when he took the job less than 10 months ago. A company veteran who started in Audi's engine design unit in 1990, Knirsch was picked by Audi chief Rupert Stadler to succeed Ulrich Hackenberg, who was pushed out in the first round of management purges after the scandal broke a year ago. Now Stadler himself has come under increased scrutiny as investigators seek to untangle the origins of the scandal.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Volkswagen, Bosch oppose request for diesel documents*



> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen Group and Robert Bosch have asked a U.S. federal judge to reject requests from European investors and vehicle owners to access more than 20 million pages of records turned over in VW's emissions cheating scandal.
> 
> VW, which admitted in 2015 to programming its diesel engines to deceive U.S. emissions testers, faces more than 1,200 lawsuits, consolidated before a judge in San Francisco. The automaker has agreed to pay up to $16.5 billion to resolve claims from some owners, dealers and government regulators.
> 
> ...


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

Looks like the US is bending over backwards to ruin Volkswagen. I think it would be a big FU if they just left the country all together.


http://www.leftlanenews.com/report-doj-gauging-maximum-penalty-for-vws-financial-viability-92920.html
The US Department of Justice is reportedly gauging the maximum penalties that can be levied against Volkswagen without threatening the automaker's financial viability.

The company already agreed to pay around $15 billion USD to settle civil charges, but the criminal charges and enforcement actions are being handled separately. Most of the civil settlement is reserved for vehicle buybacks and repairs, with a few billion set aside for environmental initiatives and other programs.

VW labor leaders early this year told thousands of German workers to be prepared for layoffs if the US government pushes for an 'unprecedented' financial penalty. The comments were undoubtedly aimed at US regulators, indirectly suggesting that VW's low-level workers will be impacted by steep fines.

"We very much hope that the U.S. authorities also have an eye for this social and employment-political dimension," works council chairman Bernd Osterloh said at the time.

The message did not fail on deaf ears, sources now tell Bloomberg. The report does not cite any dollar range for the potential fines, but regulators are said to be eyeing a number that will not push the automaker past the breaking point. VW's sales remain competitively strong despite the scandal, allowing the company to outpace Toyota and maintain revenue.

Analysts previously estimated that VW could end up paying as much as $40 billion for all costs related to the scandal.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Car Problems said:


> Looks like the US is bending over backwards to ruin Volkswagen. I think it would be a big FU if they just left the country all together.


A bug FU from who to who? What do you think VW, Audi, and Porsche have been doing to America since 2008ish when the 2009 TDIs arrived? VW has been saying "F U and your American laws!" Every single year, across all 3 brands. VW has been giving the US the middle finger for 7+ years now. They made their bed for 7+ years and now they need to lie in it.


----------



## 1985Jetta (Mar 12, 2012)

AZGolf said:


> A bug FU from who to who? What do you think VW, Audi, and Porsche have been doing to America since 2008ish when the 2009 TDIs arrived? VW has been saying "F U and your American laws!" Every single year, across all 3 brands. VW has been giving the US the middle finger for 7+ years now. They made their bed for 7+ years and now they need to lie in it.


Let them say FU to our laws and then FU to the country if/when they leave. Abandon ship, let the country dealwithit.gif.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

1985Jetta said:


> Let them say FU to our laws and then FU to the country if/when they leave. Abandon ship, let the country dealwithit.gif.


I don't think it is feasible for them to leave. They would likely still be liable for all fines and other liabilities they created here. They would have to pack up a huge number of sites and employees here as well as their other brands. Only bankruptcy would possibly allow them to get out from under obligations. Thus the US Government is not wanting to threaten VW financial stability.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

So many hurt feelings.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

rlfletch said:


> I can not justify supporting yet another corporation that has no problem sticking it to the customer/public in the rabid pursuit of profits.


----------



## joe1347 (Apr 27, 2003)

Car Problems said:


> Looks like the US is bending over backwards to ruin Volkswagen. I think it would be a big FU if they just left the country all together.
> 
> 
> http://www.leftlanenews.com/report-doj-gauging-maximum-penalty-for-vws-financial-viability-92920.html
> ...


VW is lucky they're still able to sell cars in the USA.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

Just got this email from my dealer:

_I hope this finds you well. The TDI settlement is set to get the final approval from the government on October 18th, just a couple weeks from now. If all goes according to plan, Shearer VW will have a VW representative here beginning November 1st. That VW rep will be setting appointments, approximately eight to ten per day going forward, to complete the buyback process or to begin the fix process for you and your TDI vehicle.
If you still haven't completed your claim online, I'd recommend that you visit <https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com> as soon as you can and submit your claim. The appointments set by VW will be made in order of when the claim was submitted. Being that over 1400 customers visited our store to get their TDI Goodwill cards activated, this could take quite some time at 8 to 10 per day.
I will do everything in my power to help you in making the transition smooth and painless. Please let me know what I can do at this point, if anything, or if you have any questions at all! My hope is that, should you elect to take the buyback, you'll allow me to show you a new VW and present an offer that is equally hard to refuse.
Thank you,
_

If this turns out to be the case, it will take them around 30, 5-day weeks to get through everyone. This is fine by me, as I plan on garaging the new GTI through the winter and not turning the TDI in until spring.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

VT1.8T said:


> Just got this email from my dealer:
> 
> _I hope this finds you well. The TDI settlement is set to get the final approval from the government on October 18th, just a couple weeks from now. If all goes according to plan, Shearer VW will have a VW representative here beginning November 1st. That VW rep will be setting appointments, approximately eight to ten per day going forward, to complete the buyback process or to begin the fix process for you and your TDI vehicle.
> If you still haven't completed your claim online, I'd recommend that you visit <https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com> as soon as you can and submit your claim. The appointments set by VW will be made in order of when the claim was submitted. Being that over 1400 customers visited our store to get their TDI Goodwill cards activated, this could take quite some time at 8 to 10 per day.
> ...


So, 10 vehicles per 8 hour day... 45 minutes per vehicle... 412,000 vehicles (85% of 485,000)... 309,000 front line man hours to complete... 155 full time employees working 2000hr years... 

Makes rough sense, means every 4th dealer would need one of these people (assuming correct dealer location/owner density) to have any hope of getting every car through the process.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

VT1.8T said:


> If this turns out to be the case, it will take them around 30, 5-day weeks to get through everyone. This is fine by me, as I plan on garaging the new GTI through the winter and not turning the TDI in until spring.


Why not just buy the car in the spring or late winter? You would be more likely to get a deal since the model year is half over by then and February is always a good month to buy a car since it is a short month and dealers are usually looking harder for sales.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

spockcat said:


> Why not just buy the car in the spring or late winter? You would be more likely to get a deal since the model year is half over by then and February is always a good month to buy a car since it is a short month and dealers are usually looking harder for sales.


I had planned on doing that, but I got a legit $6,000 off of sticker in August. That was real and good enough for me. I didn't feel like rolling the dice by passing on a real deal hoping to get a better one later. Plus, I didn't have to compete for a car with a bunch of other TDI owners. Finally, '17 SE's aren't available with DCC.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

VT1.8T said:


> I had planned on doing that, but I got a legit $6,000 off of sticker in August. That was real and good enough for me. I didn't feel like rolling the dice by passing on a real deal hoping to get a better one later. Plus, I didn't have to compete for a car with a bunch of other TDI owners. Finally, '17 SE's aren't available with DCC.


Didn't realize you bought a 2016 already. $6k off is very tempting. Still have to weigh out the added insurance, depreciation, and 1 year older costs.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

*Volkswagen will pay $1.2 billion to settle U.S. dealer claims*



Automotive News said:


> UPDATED: 10/1/16 10:16 am ET - adds details
> 
> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen AG confirmed late Friday it will make $1.21 billion in payments to 652 U.S. brand dealers as part of a $16.5 billion diesel emissions settlement.
> 
> VW dealers will receive an average of $1.85 million each over 18 months, on average, under the settlement that was first announced in principle in August.


I know it was posted somewhere else about the $1.2 billion deal, but I guess I never bothered to do the math to see how much each dealer is getting. This article laid it out with the dealership count and how it works out to about $1.85 million each. I wanted to do some further math though. VW sold just 350,000 cars last year, so that's an average of 537 cars per dealership. If the average total profit after holdbacks & incentives from VW direct to the dealers is, say, $2000, each dealer should have had a net profit average of about $1.07 million. Obviously more money also comes in from trade-in arbitrage, service, and potentially used car sales that walked over from the new car lot.

Still, point is that for VW to have to pay out $1.85 million to the dealers who might not even be making much more than that amount in a typical year anyway shows the scope of the problem. I view this as a retention bonus: VW Ag is paying the US dealers to pretty please not close up shop and switch to being a Subaru or BMW or Toyota or anything else dealer instead of VW.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

spockcat said:


> Didn't realize you bought a 2016 already. $6k off is very tempting. Still have to weigh out the added insurance, depreciation, and 1 year older costs.


:thumbup:

Lots of ways to look at it. For me, it boiled down to replacing a 6 year old car (that I originally thought I would keep for 10-12 years) with 74k miles (by april), with a new car at a net cost to me of $6,000. So in a handful of months i will have a new car that I will own outright and will keep for 10 years, thus depreciation doesn't matter much to me. As for insurance, it costs very little to add a 4th car to a policy that only has two drivers on it. In addition, having an extra car also comes in handy at times.


----------



## svb (Mar 27, 2009)

VT1.8T said:


> Just got this email from my dealer:
> 
> _I hope this finds you well. The TDI settlement is set to get the final approval from the government on October 18th, just a couple weeks from now. If all goes according to plan, Shearer VW will have a VW representative here beginning November 1st. That VW rep will be setting appointments, approximately eight to ten per day going forward, to complete the buyback process or to begin the fix process for you and your TDI vehicle.
> If you still haven't completed your claim online, I'd recommend that you visit <https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com> as soon as you can and submit your claim. The appointments set by VW will be made in order of when the claim was submitted. Being that over 1400 customers visited our store to get their TDI Goodwill cards activated, this could take quite some time at 8 to 10 per day.
> ...


I suspect dealing with an Audi dealer is going to put me at a fairly good advantage in terms of how quickly they process a far fewer number of claims.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

svb said:


> I suspect dealing with an Audi dealer is going to put me at a fairly good advantage in terms of how quickly they process a far fewer number of claims.


Makes sense. Though I haven't read enough to know how this will work. for example, will you hand over the keys and get a check/wire at this meeting, or will the turn in and payment come later?


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

VT1.8T said:


> Makes sense. Though I haven't read enough to know how this will work. for example, will you hand over the keys and get a check/wire at this meeting, or will the turn in and payment come later?


I've never heard of anyone selling a car without getting paid on the spot. If Carmax (a much smaller company) can afford to cut me a check on the spot, you better believe I would expect the same out of VW.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

VT1.8T said:


> Makes sense. Though I haven't read enough to know how this will work. for example, will you hand over the keys and get a check/wire at this meeting, or will the turn in and payment come later?


Yes, checks will be made prior to your visit, for the amount based on your estimated mileage. So long as you are within that mileage 'band' so to speak. You leave with the check. If you have less miles, and are in a lower band, they'll send you an additional check or electronic transfer. If you are in a higher band, you'll leave without a check and they'll send you one (or an electronic transfer).


----------



## ktm8806 (Feb 14, 2005)

VT1.8T said:


> Just got this email from my dealer:
> 
> _I hope this finds you well. The TDI settlement is set to get the final approval from the government on October 18th, just a couple weeks from now. If all goes according to plan, Shearer VW will have a VW representative here beginning November 1st. That VW rep will be setting appointments, approximately eight to ten per day going forward, to complete the buyback process or to begin the fix process for you and your TDI vehicle.
> If you still haven't completed your claim online, I'd recommend that you visit <https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com> as soon as you can and submit your claim. The appointments set by VW will be made in order of when the claim was submitted. Being that over 1400 customers visited our store to get their TDI Goodwill cards activated, this could take quite some time at 8 to 10 per day.
> ...


What dealer was this? Thank you. I'm curious as to the last line "present an offer that is equally hard to refuse". As my local dealer has made it seem as though they will not be offering any additional deal, just the standard promotions.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

ktm8806 said:


> What dealer was this? Thank you. I'm curious as to the last line "present an offer that is equally hard to refuse". As my local dealer has made it seem as though they will not be offering any additional deal, just the standard promotions.


Re-read the 3rd sentence of the letter...

😂


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Hoping we are taken care of in November, I filed first day.


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

I got this one today... 

Dear William

Our records indicate that you are the owner of one of the affected diesel vehicles regarding Volkswagen's emissions settlement. We understand that this has been a stressful situation and you probably have a number of questions, as we all do.

If you have not received any correspondence from Volkswagen of America, or are looking for more information on this subject, please visit vwcourtsettlement.com for the latest news and to register for the up coming buy-back process.

That said, the buy-back is slated to begin in November, at which time we expect current inventories of all models to become extremely slim. If you are planning on continuing with the VW brand, please contact us at 401-438-5555 as soon as possible to secure your replacement vehicle now while inventories are still are still at adequate levels. There is no commitment necessary for us to begin locating and reserving your next vehicle now before the buy-back process begins.

This is our attempt to offer our loyal customers the best selection of vehicles at the best pricing. Current incentives remain unprecedented while inventories are robust, but will most likely be removed once demand exceeds supply in another month or two as hundreds of thousands return to VW showrooms wanting to replace their affected cars.

Here at Scott Volkswagen we are training all staff to ensure we meet your expectations as this process unfolds. We are also offering additional incentives if you choose to replace your vehicle here at Scott Volkswagen. Please call 401-438-5555 or email us at [email protected] scottvw.com for more details. We hope that this offer, along with the compensation Volkswagen of America is offering brings you back to our dealership soon.

Warm regards
Brad Scott
President
Scott Volkswagen 

I already replaced my TDI and stopped driving it but am definitely sick of paying interest to VW credit.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

I guess that with this traffic and the news of the dealers getting $$ from VW they have become more motivated.


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

I was at my local dealer today and they said there's a chance that with settlement being finalized on Oct. 18, buybacks could begin the very next day, though I'll believe that when I see it. With that in mind, my payment for this month is due on Oct. 17th, but I called VW Credit and was able to get a month extension on the payment. There was a charge of 30% of my monthly payment to have it extended, but since I'm probably going to get rid of the car before the 17th of November, it was a way to save myself about $250.


----------



## sn0wieGLI (Oct 20, 2007)

VT1.8T said:


> Just got this email from my dealer:
> 
> _I hope this finds you well. The TDI settlement is set to get the final approval from the government on October 18th, just a couple weeks from now. If all goes according to plan, Shearer VW will have a VW representative here beginning November 1st. That VW rep will be setting appointments, approximately eight to ten per day going forward, to complete the buyback process or to begin the fix process for you and your TDI vehicle.
> If you still haven't completed your claim online, I'd recommend that you visit <https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com> as soon as you can and submit your claim. The appointments set by VW will be made in order of when the claim was submitted. Being that over 1400 customers visited our store to get their TDI Goodwill cards activated, this could take quite some time at 8 to 10 per day.
> ...


Hey, Shearer! I am BTV as well.

My wife and I plan on driving our TDI as long as we can before selling it back to them (if we don't total it :thumbdown and I am curious if you can perhaps choose your appointment date? We have not clicked the "Submit" button yet on the claims website, but we have filled out everything else. . . I just do not want to click Submit and then be expected to bring it in, you know? I know the docs state we can go until 2018, but does anyone know exactly how that works if you want to keep it until then?


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

sn0wieGLI said:


> Hey, Shearer! I am BTV as well.
> 
> My wife and I plan on driving our TDI as long as we can before selling it back to them (if we don't total it :thumbdown and I am curious if you can perhaps choose your appointment date? We have not clicked the "Submit" button yet on the claims website, but we have filled out everything else. . . I just do not want to click Submit and then be expected to bring it in, you know? I know the docs state we can go until 2018, but does anyone know exactly how that works if you want to keep it until then?


I'm wanting to do the same thing, and also wondering the same question.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Spouse wants to send his back around April. Unfortunately, it has bald tyres now. 

I am trying to convince him to order one so that we can get the exact option pack we want. He is meh on that. Lighting!!! We must have the lighting package!!


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

sn0wieGLI said:


> Hey, Shearer! I am BTV as well.
> 
> My wife and I plan on driving our TDI as long as we can before selling it back to them (if we don't total it :thumbdown and I am curious if you can perhaps choose your appointment date? We have not clicked the "Submit" button yet on the claims website, but we have filled out everything else. . . I just do not want to click Submit and then be expected to bring it in, you know? I know the docs state we can go until 2018, but does anyone know exactly how that works if you want to keep it until then?


You turn it in when YOU want to
VW can't force you
I am driving Scooter til the last day of the buyback


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

sn0wieGLI said:


> Hey, Shearer! I am BTV as well.
> 
> My wife and I plan on driving our TDI as long as we can before selling it back to them (if we don't total it :thumbdown and I am curious if you can perhaps choose your appointment date? We have not clicked the "Submit" button yet on the claims website, but we have filled out everything else. . . I just do not want to click Submit and then be expected to bring it in, you know? I know the docs state we can go until 2018, but does anyone know exactly how that works if you want to keep it until then?



When you submit the claim you need to choose a date. So, just plug in 12/18 and submit.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

atomicalex said:


> Spouse wants to send his back around April. Unfortunately, it has bald tyres now.
> 
> I am trying to convince him to order one so that we can get the exact option pack we want. He is meh on that. Lighting!!! We must have the lighting package!!


Order what? I agree on the lighting package. My new GTI has it an i love it.


----------



## sn0wieGLI (Oct 20, 2007)

VT1.8T said:


> When you submit the claim you need to choose a date. So, just plug in 12/18 and submit.


I do see this now...thank you!

Tentative Return Date: 
9/1/18

re: Saggio44, I think this date still is not set in stone as it states "tentative." 

edit: is there a date you have to click "Submit" by? I know a few people have mentioned September in this thread...wondering if it hurts to wait. Thanks !


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

sn0wieGLI said:


> I do see this now...thank you!
> 
> Tentative Return Date:
> 9/1/18
> ...


i would submit now so you are not last in line or inadvertently miss a date.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Skizzle1111 said:


> I was at my local dealer today and they said there's a chance that with settlement being finalized on Oct. 18, buybacks could begin the very next day, though I'll believe that when I see it. With that in mind, my payment for this month is due on Oct. 17th, but I called VW Credit and was able to get a month extension on the payment. There was a charge of 30% of my monthly payment to have it extended, but since I'm probably going to get rid of the car before the 17th of November, it was a way to save myself about $250.


I wound't worry about the payment. The amount is based on days. So if you make the payment and sell the car back to VW the next day, they will just got you a check for the overage.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

VT1.8T said:


> i would submit now so you are not last in line or inadvertently miss a date.


according to everything that vw is posting/i have read... you can change this date if you want. later, sooner... or change completely and not do the buyback at all. then change to a buyback at essentially the last minute.

you are not truly committed until you sign the buyback papers or miss that final deadline Sept 1 2018.

>>>
September 1, 2018 Must complete claim to get buyback or AEM+restitution by Dec 30 2018.

December 30, 2018 The Class Action Settlement claim program closes on December 30, 2018. You must have submitted a complete and valid claim by September 1, 2018 to get a Buyback or an Approved Emissions Modification plus Restitution Payment by the time the Class Action Settlement claim program ends.
>>>


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Skizzle1111 said:


> I was at my local dealer today and they said there's a chance that with settlement being finalized on Oct. 18, buybacks could begin the very next day, though I'll believe that when I see it. With that in mind, my payment for this month is due on Oct. 17th, but I called VW Credit and was able to get a month extension on the payment. There was a charge of 30% of my monthly payment to have it extended, but since I'm probably going to get rid of the car before the 17th of November, it was a way to save myself about $250.


how did you actually save any money here?

IMO, unless i am misunderstanding what happened, you likely just spent money that you wont get back.

Let's assume your payment to be $250. Let's guess and say $25 of that was interest. So $225 should have gone to your loan principal.
That $225 was going to end up coming back to you.

But instead you paid $80-85 to extend your payment date out.
This money will not be reimbursed in a buyback.

^^ maybe I got those numbers wrong because you are saying you saved $250... maybe that is after paying the 30% fee.


I guess if you are leasing doing this may work out in your favor.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

VT1.8T said:


> When you submit the claim you need to choose a date. So, just plug in 12/18 and submit.


I don't recall seeing a way to select a date on my claim.  I am also on a lease, so that may have something to do with it.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

dunhamjr said:


> how did you actually save any money here?
> 
> IMO, unless i am misunderstanding what happened, you likely just spent money that you wont get back.
> 
> ...


EDIT: Disregard what I said below... Its a lease!


I know this is sort of off topic, but I'm not sure either of you understand how a loan "payoff quote" works. You pick a date and they calculate the amount for that date since interest is usually calculated on a daily basis. If you pay more than you are supposed to, your lender will cut you a check back. If you don't pay enough, they will send you an invoice for the balance if something was not calculated correctly. That why many times you see "Request payoff amount quote" good for 10 days....


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

aj4066 said:


> I don't recall seeing a way to select a date on my claim.  I am also on a lease, so that may have something to do with it.


I saw no place for me to select a date either. Mine still says "Documents uploaded under review"


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

dunhamjr said:


> how did you actually save any money here?
> 
> IMO, unless i am misunderstanding what happened, you likely just spent money that you wont get back.
> 
> ...


I should've mentioned yes, it's a lease.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

AJB said:


> I know this is sort of off topic, but I'm not sure either of you understand how a loan "payoff quote" works. You pick a date and they calculate the amount for that date since interest is usually calculated on a daily basis. If you pay more than you are supposed to, your lender will cut you a check back. If you don't pay enough, they will send you an invoice for the balance if something was not calculated correctly. That why many times you see "Request payoff amount quote" good for 10 days....


you probably shouldnt make assumptions...
i know exactly how a loan payoff works.

skizzle was talking about a pushing monthly payment... not a full loan payoff amount.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Skizzle1111 said:


> I should've mentioned yes, it's a lease.


ok there you go, i stand corrected.
for a lease situation, what you did does make sense.:beer:


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Ahh yes. Its a lease. Carry on. Posted edited.


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

AZGolf said:


> I've never heard of anyone selling a car without getting paid on the spot. If Carmax (a much smaller company) can afford to cut me a check on the spot, you better believe I would expect the same out of VW.


Read the VW court settlement documents. The answers are in there.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

*Light bulb moment*

OK, I know I'm different than everyone else, but I bought the Golf S for cash in February 2015, and if I wait until the end of the buyback period (Sept 2018) I'll still get back what I paid for it, maybe minus $1000. 

That means I'll have done the equivalent of lease the car for 44 months for only $1000.

Hmm, that Ram EcoDiesel looks like a good replacement by then . . .


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

T5 Dave said:


> OK, I know I'm different than everyone else, but I bought the Golf S for cash in February 2015, and if I wait until the end of the buyback period (Sept 2018) I'll still get back what I paid for it, maybe minus $1000.
> 
> That means I'll have done the equivalent of lease the car for 44 months for only $1000.


not bad:thumbup:

i worked out the numbers on ours and it looks like about $1700 over 36 months.
so about $50/mo for us.

its a bit annoying to have to deal with all of the this but that monthly number should take a lot of any sting people feeling


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

dunhamjr said:


> not bad:thumbup:
> 
> i worked out the numbers on ours and it looks like about $1700 over 36 months.
> so about $50/mo for us.
> ...


 I figure the longer I wait the lower that number gets.

I did put in for a buyback date of August 31, 2018, though, just to give me some schedule margin in case VW gets overloaded at the end of the buyback period.


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

Good deal for you. I'm not as happy...

If I take the buyback I'll be out about $5K and will need to get another vehicle and pay taxes on it (another $2-3K) - total loss of $7k to 8K over 2 years which works out to about $333/month. Meh.

Thank you VW for structuring the buybacks to lowball the gen2 models - I guess the fix was easier and you wanted to discourage the buybacks for that model. 

The fix option isn't much better as the fix will most likely cripple the performance of the car (and the EPA doesn't really care if VW meets the performance requirements - they only want the fine and care about the NOX levels). 

If there even IS a fix - as VW has already written off TDIs for 2016 and 17 and most likely beyond. They'd rather pull the diesel resources into the electric projects than wasting time on a dead end.

I'm just glad everyone else is getting such a great deal that they are already able to go out and get replacement vehicles (with cash no less) before the buybacks even begin. :banghead:


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

gcodori said:


> Good deal for you. I'm not as happy...
> 
> If I take the buyback I'll be out about $5K and will need to get another vehicle and pay taxes on it (another $2-3K) - total loss of $7k to 8K over 2 years which works out to about $333/month. Meh.
> 
> ...


We're in the same boat with my wife's 2009 1st gen Jetta. The amount for the buyback only gave us half of what we'd need to go out and buy her a replacement. Because the car is only 7 years old at this point and should be good for another 10 at the rate she drives it, it's cheaper for me in the long run to keep it than do the buyback. Yes, the car may have lower performance and use more fuel, but with the $5100 restitution I can buy a lot of diesel fuel. 

I was going to do this with the 2015, but then I realized I'd be getting the equivalent of the 44 month lease with only a $1000 outlay. So oddly enough we're going to keep the old car and dump the new one. . . .

Edit: Yep, it's frustrating and VW isn't engendering their customers to be loyal. I had suggested that what they do instead was take the cars back and hand us the keys to a new one, no questions asked, and all we would do is keep up the payment/lease schedule as the original. I'd have figured a lot of people would have remained loyal to VW if they did that. But the bean counters didn't see it that way and we're stuck with this final settlement approved by the court. Good luck, VW.


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

T5 Dave said:


> We're in the same boat with my wife's 2009 1st gen Jetta. The amount for the buyback only gave us half of what we'd need to go out and buy her a replacement. Because the car is only 7 years old at this point and should be good for another 10 at the rate she drives it, it's cheaper for me in the long run to keep it than do the buyback. Yes, the car may have lower performance and use more fuel, but with the $5100 restitution I can buy a lot of diesel fuel.
> 
> Edit: Yep, it's frustrating and VW isn't engendering their customers to be loyal. I had suggested that what they do instead was take the cars back and hand us the keys to a new one, no questions asked, and all we would do is keep up the payment/lease schedule as the original. I'd have figured a lot of people would have remained loyal to VW if they did that. But the bean counters didn't see it that way and we're stuck with this final settlement approved by the court. Good luck, VW.
> 
> I was going to do this with the 2015, but then I realized I'd be getting the equivalent of the 44 month lease with only a $1000 outlay. So oddly enough we're going to keep the old car and dump the new one. . . .


Same here - will most likely keep the car - but not by choice. VW is throwing tons on money at the gen1 and gen3 owners. They are all very happy. The only happy gen2 owners are the ones who made really good deals when they bought theirs. If you paid near MSRP and drive more than 30 miles a day and drive a gen2, you're screwed.

The funny thing is that my dad loved my Passat so much he purchased one too. A gen3. Funny thing is that he wants the fix and I want the buyback. Oh sweet irony.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

It seems clear that VW is worried about internal inventory when the buyback begins. 

Has anyone heard that other manufactures that will be able to process the buyback? If I take my VW to a BMW dealer (after the buyback begins), are they going to trade my car based on current market value or buyback value?


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

aj4066 said:


> It seems clear that VW is worried about internal inventory when the buyback begins.
> 
> Has anyone heard that other manufactures that will be able to process the buyback? If I take my VW to a BMW dealer (after the buyback begins), are they going to trade my car based on current market value or buyback value?


Is this serious?


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Why wouldn't it be? 

It may sound crazy but VW isn't taking care of 400,000 buybacks in two years. It simply can't happen. The emails people are posting are proving that it will be a serious task and VW is already trying to figure out how to manage it. 

Chevy has already stated they are going after the VW owners, so I am sure they have some sort of process ready to put in place to take full advantage of those looking to get out of their VW.


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

aj4066 said:


> It seems clear that VW is worried about internal inventory when the buyback begins.
> 
> Has anyone heard that other manufactures that will be able to process the buyback? If I take my VW to a BMW dealer (after the buyback begins), are they going to trade my car based on current market value or buyback value?


No, other brands are not going to be cutting you a check from the VW fund. 

That's not to say that another maker can't offer sweet deals to VW owners but they have no requirement to offer the VW amount versus the true market value. 

Why would they. A smart dealer could say "if you don't like our offer go stand in line at VW"

I'm sure most makers will roll out $2k VW offers, but don't expect buyback amount discounts on a BMW. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

aj4066 said:


> Why wouldn't it be?
> 
> It may sound crazy but VW isn't taking care of 400,000 buybacks in two years. It simply can't happen. The emails people are posting are proving that it will be a serious task and VW is already trying to figure out how to manage it.
> 
> Chevy has already stated they are going after the VW owners, so I am sure they have some sort of process ready to put in place to take full advantage of those looking to get out of their VW.


Well...



VT1.8T said:


> Just got this email from my dealer:
> 
> _I hope this finds you well. The TDI settlement is set to get the final approval from the government on October 18th, just a couple weeks from now. If all goes according to plan, Shearer VW will have a VW representative here beginning November 1st. That VW rep will be setting appointments, approximately eight to ten per day going forward, to complete the buyback process or to begin the fix process for you and your TDI vehicle.
> If you still haven't completed your claim online, I'd recommend that you visit <https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com> as soon as you can and submit your claim. The appointments set by VW will be made in order of when the claim was submitted. Being that over 1400 customers visited our store to get their TDI Goodwill cards activated, this could take quite some time at 8 to 10 per day.
> ...





E CODE said:


> So, 10 vehicles per 8 hour day... 45 minutes per vehicle... 412,000 vehicles (85% of 485,000)... 309,000 front line man hours to complete... 155 full time employees working 2000hr years...
> 
> Makes rough sense, means every 4th dealer would need one of these people (assuming correct dealer location/owner density) to have any hope of getting every car through the process.


With 155 employees it could be done in a year... if they wanted to. 

And besides, there are companies out there that exist solely to run recall and buyback programs. Toyota used one for the Tacoma frame recall. I'd expect VW to hire one of them that have this process perfected.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

aj4066 said:


> Why wouldn't it be?
> 
> It may sound crazy but VW isn't taking care of 400,000 buybacks in two years. It simply can't happen. The emails people are posting are proving that it will be a serious task and VW is already trying to figure out how to manage it.
> 
> Chevy has already stated they are going after the VW owners, so I am sure they have some sort of process ready to put in place to take full advantage of those looking to get out of their VW.


As long as the dealer can intercept the VW payback I could certainly see competitors coming up with plans to allow people to trade in their VWs as a "courtesy".

...As long as there _is_ a way to do it and do it practically. If VW will only ship the check to the car owner at their legal address, then the competing dealer would have to 'trust' the buyer to get the check, which I can't see happening.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Powers of attorney to act on your behalf will greatly help dealers. If I trade my vehicle in to another dealership and give them a POA to handle my car, they could easily drive it over to VW and handle the buyback and then process paperwork and shuffle money. Is it risky, possibly so. But it also will alleviate headache for a lot of people. 

I anticipate dealers to figure out loopholes to grab the customers. And a part of me believes that VW may actually offer it. Do they have the supply to assist 400,000 people to get out of their car? There may be a staff at the dealer to help with the buyback, but theres still the same amount of salesman, same amount of F&I staff...unless I am completely wrong on this. 

(I have never gone through a vehicle buyback or personally known anyone who has gone through one either)


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

E CODE said:


> Well...
> 
> With 155 employees it could be done in a year... if they wanted to.
> 
> And besides, there are companies out there that exist solely to run recall and buyback programs. Toyota used one for the Tacoma frame recall. I'd expect VW to hire one of them that have this process perfected.


If VW only has 155 employees to work on buybacks, they obviously won't have someone at every one of the 600+ VW dealerships and 250 or so Audi dealerships, every day. So they will have to hire an outside company or get dealership employees working on the job.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Ideally if you are going after another make, I would try to use a dealer family/group that has the new make *AND* a VW rooftop and let *THEM *figure out how to make it less work for *YOU*. 

I would imagine most dealer groups/family would be willing to keep and get that VW $$$ into yet another deal and move another unit.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> Ideally if you are going after another make, I would try to use a dealer family/group that has the new make *AND* a VW rooftop and let *THEM *figure out how to make it less work for *YOU*.
> 
> I would imagine most dealer groups/family would be willing to keep and get that VW $$$ into yet another deal and move another unit.


I should have mentioned, but yes. I meant this. -keep it in the same group of dealerships.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

aj4066 said:


> I should have mentioned, but yes. I meant this. -keep it in the same group of dealerships.


Um yeah... that changes the scope of the comment immensely. 

If a buyback happens here (Canadaland) we have a dealership group that has basically every brand connected (missing Mazda and Subaru) so I plan on dealing with them in case something else tickles me fancy. You'd imagine that they'd work with you.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

What I'm most surprised at is the lack of any type of loyalty incentive from VW to keep us in the brand. I thought for sure they would offer something additional if you were to purchase another new VW. Maybe it will happen at the time of approved buyback, but from the sounds of what I'm hearing from competitive dealers lots of VW customers are already jumping ship. Personally, I'm on the fence and would be swayed by another $2K or so in incentive cash. Otherwise it's pretty likely I'll be buying a competitive brand. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

bdc12 said:


> What I'm most surprised at is the lack of any type of loyalty incentive from VW to keep us in the brand. I thought for sure they would offer something additional if you were to purchase another new VW.
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I thought about that too but came to the conclusion that it won't happen at the beginning, because VW really won't need to. Once the buybacks start rolling at full speed, there will be plenty of owners that jump ship but plenty more that will turn right around and buy a new gas or hybrid VW. That will create a run on inventory and lessen any incentive for VW to give away more cash. I predict once we get closer to the 2018 model year there may be some incentive to keep the remaining VW diesel owners in the brand. 

My $.02. We'll see I guess.


----------



## Picklerfan (Jul 25, 2016)

bdc12 said:


> What I'm most surprised at is the lack of any type of loyalty incentive from VW to keep us in the brand. I thought for sure they would offer something additional if you were to purchase another new VW. Maybe it will happen at the time of approved buyback, but from the sounds of what I'm hearing from competitive dealers lots of VW customers are already jumping ship. Personally, I'm on the fence and would be swayed by another $2K or so in incentive cash. Otherwise it's pretty likely I'll be buying a competitive brand.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Perhaps they will start once the judge approves and the date buybacks start.


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

gcodori said:


> The fix option isn't much better as the fix will most likely cripple the performance of the car (and the EPA doesn't really care if VW meets the performance requirements - they only want the fine and care about the NOX levels).



VW's viewpoint is on pages 16-17 of the Settlement. One can read it for more information.

I doubt that any modification will be approved that cripples the car. But who knows; ergo why I'm doing the buyback.





gcodori said:


> I'm just glad everyone else is getting such a great deal that they are already able to go out and get replacement vehicles (with cash no less) before the buybacks even begin. :banghead:



Well, I am going to come out pretty well, but I'm still driving my car. I parked it as much as I could during the period of time this summer, ending September 16th, when a totaled car would not have been bought back. Now that's no longer a worry. I'll probably continue to drive it through 2018. We'll see.


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

aj4066 said:


> It seems clear that VW is worried about internal inventory when the buyback begins.
> 
> Has anyone heard that other manufactures that will be able to process the buyback? If I take my VW to a BMW dealer (after the buyback begins), are they going to trade my car based on current market value or buyback value?



I am confused by your question. Why would a non-VW dealer offer buyback value in the trade in (unless it's a sleight of hand, discounting from MSRP or higher)? For that matter, why would a non-VW dealer be interested in the car in the first place?


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

DerSpiegel said:


> I thought about that too but came to the conclusion that it won't happen at the beginning, because VW really won't need to. Once the buybacks start rolling at full speed, there will be plenty of owners that jump ship but plenty more that will turn right around and buy a new gas or hybrid VW. That will create a run on inventory and lessen any incentive for VW to give away more cash. I predict once we get closer to the 2018 model year there may be some incentive to keep the remaining VW diesel owners in the brand.
> 
> My $.02. We'll see I guess.


Trust me there will be incentives - give it about a month after the buybacks begin - VW doesn't have the inventory anyway and if they find that they are just going to be losing tons of customers to other brands trust me they will offer something - they are just sticking to a hard line now because nothing has begun - my dealer gave me the same crap the other day "sure we can order one for you but currently there are no promotions we'd have to see on the month you take delivery" - If theres no incentives I'll take my buyback and go to a brand that is offering incentives on new or pre-owned vehicles, gladly.


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

Still waiting on my documents to be reviews on claims.vwgoa.com, has anyone had theirs approved yet? 

As far as buybacks go, they will be only at VW dealerships and your buyback will be schedule based on which dealer you pick. VW agents will be scheduled at certain dealerships on set days and you will be scheduled based on that. *Info provided by my good friend and VW car salesman at my local dealer. *

For all of the people who feel they aren't being compensated well enough, just remember you have been driving and enjoying the car since purchase. No one said you HAVE to sell the car back. Think of it as a lease, one in which you get a check back at the end. 

Only 12 days till the final court approval hearing. Hoping we get some more info soon.


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

NickCarter said:


> For all of the people who feel they aren't being compensated well enough, just remember you have been driving and enjoying the car since purchase. No one said you HAVE to sell the car back. Think of it as a lease, one in which you get a check back at the end.
> 
> Only 12 days till the final court approval hearing. Hoping we get some more info soon.


I think compensation for my TDI Cup is fair when factoring in the $5k on top. However, I think the compensation moves into the "good" category should I decide keep my car for another two years before selecting the buyback. Can't complain about two free years and 24k free miles, provided I don't ball it up or VW doesn't fold within that time period. To gamble or not to gamble. Hmmmmmm?


----------



## svb (Mar 27, 2009)

NickCarter said:


> As far as buybacks go, they will be only at VW dealerships and your buyback will be schedule based on which dealer you pick. VW agents will be scheduled at certain dealerships on set days and you will be scheduled based on that.


Well, and Audi. 

But I don't think we can even cross between those two. For example, I could only choose from Audi dealers for my buyback location. I suspect the VW folks can only choose from VW dealers. If you have a VW and try to turn it in at Audi in hopes of getting a deal on a new Audi or vice versa, I suspect you're out of luck.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Geesixty said:


> I think compensation for my TDI Cup is fair when factoring in the $5k on top. However, I think the compensation moves into the "good" category should I decide keep my car for another two years before selecting the buyback. Can't complain about two free years and 24k free miles, provided I don't ball it up or VW doesn't fold within that time period. To gamble or not to gamble. Hmmmmmm?


You get the same buyback compensation even if you do ball it up.


From the settlements package, line 11:


> If you owned an Eligible Vehicle that was functioning and operable as of September 18, 2015, but was
> subsequently totaled (and the title was transferred to an insurance company), you will be eligible for benefits
> under the Class Action Settlement as described in this notice at Question 19.


Question 19 says:


> f you choose the Buyback, you will receive the Vehicle Value, plus an additional cash payment called Owner
> Restitution, as described below. If you choose an Approved Emissions Modification, you will receive the
> modification, plus Owner Restitution.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

T5 Dave said:


> We're in the same boat with my wife's 2009 1st gen Jetta. The amount for the buyback only gave us half of what we'd need to go out and buy her a replacement. Because the car is only 7 years old at this point and should be good for another 10 at the rate she drives it, it's cheaper for me in the long run to keep it than do the buyback. Yes, the car may have lower performance and use more fuel, but with the $5100 restitution I can buy a lot of diesel fuel.
> 
> I was going to do this with the 2015, but then I realized I'd be getting the equivalent of the 44 month lease with only a $1000 outlay. So oddly enough we're going to keep the old car and dump the new one. . . .
> 
> Edit: Yep, it's frustrating and VW isn't engendering their customers to be loyal. I had suggested that what they do instead was take the cars back and hand us the keys to a new one, no questions asked, and all we would do is keep up the payment/lease schedule as the original. I'd have figured a lot of people would have remained loyal to VW if they did that. But the bean counters didn't see it that way and we're stuck with this final settlement approved by the court. Good luck, VW.



Handing you a brand new car(which btw wouldnt have been comparable to what you currently have anyways) would have been far more expensive AND logistically complex than what they are doing now... AND it would not have guaranteed any higher loyalty numbers. Sure they might be a little higher, but LOTS people will still be pissed because they like to be... and many don't want another VW based on ethical position.

I don't quite get this mentality. VW needs to make you "whole" for the damages they did by fixing your car or buying your car out. They should not at all be on the hook for giving you enough to buy your next car.

So saying that the $$$ VW is going to give you isn't enough to get a replacement for your 2009 Jetta... I have to disagree. 
Whatever they provide you I am sure is more than sufficient to go out and buy another 2009 car with similar miles. No it might not be german, or a diesel, or have soul. But that is not what they are paying you for.

Just estimating but seems like you will get about $13k for your 2009. 
A 2009 Prius goes for $6-$13k in Seattle. Sounds to me like they are given you anywhere from exactly enough to twice as much as needed to replace that Jetta.
Seems like a pretty fine place to be positioned.

You can either buy another 2009 that will still be good for another 10 yrs of driving, easily....
Or you can take that $13k and buy something newer (with more money on top) and get something that will get you even further down the years.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Has anyone gotten past "Document received and under review" on the settlement site?


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

dunhamjr said:


> Handing you a brand new car(which btw wouldnt have been comparable to what you currently have anyways) would have been far more expensive AND logistically complex than what they are doing now... AND it would not have guaranteed any higher loyalty numbers. Sure they might be a little higher, but LOTS people will still be pissed because they like to be... and many don't want another VW based on ethical position.
> 
> I don't quite get this mentality. VW needs to make you "whole" for the damages they did by fixing your car or buying your car out. They should not at all be on the hook for giving you enough to buy your next car.
> 
> ...


Oh, I agree, what VW is doing meets the absolute *minimum* of what they need to do. What I'm saying is that what VW is doing is *not *engendering customer loyalty by doing the least they can get away with. Yes, it would cost them more to hand the customers the keys to a new car. The beancounters would be furious with that. But in doing what they're doing (the absolute minimum) will piss me off no end such that I'm never coming back to the brand. And that will cost them more in the long run than if they had handed me the keys to a new car as I would have eventually bought another VW. But they didn't, so I won't.

The Jetta is running fine, there's no need for me to turn it in. I can keep it for another 10 to 15 years and it will be far cheaper to me in the long run than trading it in for a Prius. And I wouldn't have to spend weeks to find a replacement used car in the same shape as my Jetta. Plus, I HATED the way the Prius drove. Gaahh, it was mush, handled like it was riding on sponges, had the get-up-and-go of a slug, and older versions needed to get batteries replaced, so the savings was dubious at best. Screw that.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Mazda 3s said:


> Has anyone gotten past "Document received and under review" on the settlement site?


there may be someone.
but considering that the court stuff isnt settled until Oct 18th... i would assume there will not be any movement till after that date.

i called into the claims people late last week, and they essentially said the same thing.
get the docs in and wait till the 18th. after that the paperwork will get vetted and a claims person would contact you to set your real appointment.

i called in because i had arbitrarily set my turn in as Jan 1st... but our tabs are due Dec 1st... so i wanted to change the turn in date. i might as well turn the car in before having to pay for new tabs.


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

dunhamjr said:


> So saying that the $$$ VW is going to give you isn't enough to get a replacement for your 2009 Jetta... I have to disagree.
> Whatever they provide you I am sure is more than sufficient to go out and buy another 2009 car with similar miles. No it might not be german, or a diesel, or have soul. But that is not what they are paying you for.


Thank you for the good laugh. 

I'm getting $26k for 2013 passat sel. My loan balance is $21K.

Tell me again how they are giving me enough to buy a 2013 replacement? 

For $5k I'll be able to buy 1/3 of a car. Thanks VW! 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

So you think that everyone with a loan should get free loan forgiveness?:screwy:


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

gti_matt said:


> So you think that everyone with a loan should get free loan forgiveness?:screwy:


Nope. Just responding to the post saying VW is giving everyone enough to go out and get a replacement. My example shows that some of us are not getting much at all. I'll get $5k and after making $9k in payments will actually be out $4k and no car. 

Sounds fair to me...

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## svb (Mar 27, 2009)

gcodori said:


> Nope. Just responding to the post saying VW is giving everyone enough to go out and get a replacement.


Sounds like they're giving you $26k


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

gcodori said:


> Thank you for the good laugh.
> 
> I'm getting $26k for 2013 passat sel. My loan balance is $21K.
> 
> ...


So you will have paid $4000 to use a car for 3 years? About $110/mo.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

gcodori said:


> Thank you for the good laugh.
> 
> I'm getting $26k for 2013 passat sel. My loan balance is $21K.
> 
> ...


Are you asking an honest question? Because if you are, here is the honest answer: you can afford the car payment on a $26k car loan and are getting $5k in cash. You can easily take that $5k as down payment on a 2013 VW Passat and get an _even lower_ car payment now. That is the answer. If you can afford to make payments on a $26k loan, you can absolutely afford to make payments on a $15-20k loan, which is what a late model Passat might run you after that $5k down payment is applied. Whatever your car payment was before, it will be lower on your replacement car. That is the nicest way I can explain it.


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

AZGolf said:


> Are you asking an honest question? Because if you are, here is the honest answer: you can afford the car payment on a $26k car loan and are getting $5k in cash. You can easily take that $5k as down payment on a 2013 VW Passat and get an _even lower_ car payment now. That is the answer. If you can afford to make payments on a $26k loan, you can absolutely afford to make payments on a $15-20k loan, which is what a late model Passat might run you after that $5k down payment is applied. Whatever your car payment was before, it will be lower on your replacement car. That is the nicest way I can explain it.


Sigh...reading comprehension.

No I wasn't asking a question. I was just responding to a post stating that we were all getting enough to get a replacement - I believe I've already explained that once already - but here's another attempt... The original poster said that you can take the $19K you get from VW and get a $19K car. I was simply responding that not all of us were getting enough to get a direct replacement. 

My $5K will not get me a direct replacement, only a down payment. And by the way - I'll end up paying around $2k in taxes on that $15-20K car, so there's that. On top of the $3K I already paid in taxes 2 year ago (I purchased the 2013 in 2014 as a CPO). So that will be $5K in taxes in 2 years. That's $200/month JUST IN TAXES. Sweet!

Anyway - I don't want to get into the same old "I'm not happy with the buyback amount" thing that has been beaten to death here. Let's just all agree that we all paid different amounts, all owe different amount and are all getting back different amounts. Some great, some not so much.


----------



## rick8018 (Jan 3, 2001)

Mazda 3s said:


> Has anyone gotten past "Document received and under review" on the settlement site?


Nope. Still waiting. Probably will be until 10/18 or later.


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

gcodori said:


> Thank you for the good laugh.
> 
> I'm getting $26k for 2013 passat sel. My loan balance is $21K.
> 
> ...


Don't take this the wrong way

You owe $21K on a 4 yr old Passat is amazing to me


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

cpermd said:


> Don't take this the wrong way
> 
> You owe $21K on a 4 yr old Passat is amazing to me


Don't take this the wrong way but it amazes me that you believe:
- Everyone pays the same low low price for a car
- No one could ever pay close to MSRP or buys an extended warranty, may not have perfect credit, etc.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

As I posted previously (I know it's hard to read all the posts here :banghead - I don't want to get into the "you paid too much" agreement here (those of us who did pay too much already know that ).


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

gcodori said:


> Sigh...reading comprehension.
> 
> No I wasn't asking a question. I was just responding to a post stating that we were all getting enough to get a replacement - I believe I've already explained that once already - but here's another attempt... The original poster said that you can take the $19K you get from VW and get a $19K car. I was simply responding that not all of us were getting enough to get a direct replacement.
> 
> ...


I see where the disconnect is here. You believe that you own the Passat. The reason you are not getting $26,000 is because you don't own it. You own only a fractional share - the share you've paid for. If you wanted the full benefits of ownership, you would need to own it outright. The bank paid for the car, not you. As such, they still own (apparently) a $21,000 share of the car. That's nothing personal or any fault of VW. That's between you and the bank or whoever made the loan and actually paid for the car.

Please be real with yourself though. You're writing as if you're entitled to something that you're not. You're not entitled to the $26,000 because it isn't entirely your car in the first place. If you want the full benefits of ownership, you need to actually own that car yourself with no liens or loans on it.

As for your complaints about taxes: that's part of why VW is paying above market value. That extra money they are paying beyond market value helps to cover things like sales tax too, dealer doc fees, and so on. If you truly believe you can do better on your own, you can opt out of the settlement and sue them yourself. Alternately, you can reject the buyback and just keep the car as if the scandal never even happened at all. They're not forcing you to turn the car in. If you like the car, then keep it and just keep making payments on the loan until you're ready to get a different car. You maintain that option at this time.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

gcodori said:


> Thank you for the good laugh.
> 
> I'm getting $26k for 2013 passat sel. My loan balance is $21K.
> 
> ...


Not to beat you up, but right now, you owe someone $21k. And now, thanks to VW, you don't, and you have $5k.

And all you're out is a car that probably rolled out of the factory 4 years ago.

And unless you've screwed up your credit real bad since you bought the Passat, you could go get another loan on a different car.

Dude, you win, be happy.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Chilcoot said:


> Not to beat you up, but right now, you owe someone $21k. And now, thanks to VW, you don't, and you have $5k.
> 
> And all you're out is a car that probably rolled out of the factory 4 years ago.
> 
> ...



This. Basically VW is forgiving which is in my opinion poor financial decisions - because your loan to value on a 3, going on 4 year old Passat is terrible - let me guess you probably financed for 72 months? A few negative lease turn ins or a finance with negative equity?

VW Buybacks don't take into account bad loans on the cars unfortunately and thats the truth. I'd be happy to be out of that loan, take my $5k, maybe another grand or two of my personal money for a down payment and maybe some year end incentives and get a new Passat with a warranty and pay it down within 48-60 months and keep it long term so you can outlive depreciation this time.

Even better, buy one that is a few years old so you are financing even less and let the first owner take depreciation hit.


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

this page. wow. 

see you guys on the 18th.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

gcodori said:


> Don't take this the wrong way but it amazes me that you believe:
> - Everyone pays the same low low price for a car
> - No one could ever pay close to MSRP *or buys an extended warranty*, may not have perfect credit, etc.
> 
> ...


if you have an extended warranty, most states treat them like an insurance policy, and require any unused portions to be pro-rated and returned....so contact the warranty company and get started on canceling the policy and getting some money back.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

.LSinLV. said:


> if you have an extended warranty, most states treat them like an insurance policy, and require any unused portions to be pro-rated and returned....so contact the warranty company and get started on canceling the policy and getting some money back.


and be ready for them to screw you on the refund amount when they explain to you that its not an extended warranty, and that it actually runs concurrently with the manufacturers warranty.
then proceed to take 8 weeks to cut you a check for about 55% of what you actually paid.
we got back $1100 of the $2000 we originally paid...
:thumbdown:

i'm not bitter or anything about dealership employees who lie though.
:banghead:


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

dunhamjr said:


> and be ready for them to screw you on the refund amount when they explain to you that its not an extended warranty, and that it actually runs concurrently with the manufacturers warranty.
> then proceed to take 8 weeks to cut you a check for about 55% of what you actually paid.
> we got back $1100 of the $2000 we originally paid...
> :thumbdown:
> ...


since this is my career, I'd like to give you and everyone here some very sage advice:

READ THE CONTRACT (in it's entirety) 

too many don't read the contract and understand it's implications. Also, since it's an adhesion contract, most states judiciary, are very amicable to find for the party filing the complaint.....so file a complaint when you find it's unfair as you stated.

you don't need an attorney....it helps, but isn't necessary in small claims court, and you will usually win as the costs to fight are greater than any amount demanded.

:thumbup:


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Did anybody realize (I totally forgot in the hustle and bustle of buyback frenzy) that I think in about another week to 10 days is when CARB/EPA should either approve or disapprove the "fix" for the Gen3 cars? Could be a glimmer of good hope if that 3rd generation engine gets approved - I'd like to do an Alltrack TDI if possible, as I doubt very highly the Gen 1's will ever get fixed to the CARB approval


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Did anybody realize (I totally forgot in the hustle and bustle of buyback frenzy) that I think in about another week to 10 days is when CARB/EPA should either approve or disapprove the "fix" for the Gen3 cars? Could be a glimmer of good hope if that 3rd generation engine gets approved - I'd like to do an Alltrack TDI if possible, as I doubt very highly the Gen 1's will ever get fixed to the CARB approval


I wouldn't count on that vehicle coming here anytime soon. There has been some formal announcements in Canada about the halting of diesel sales into 2017 and perhaps beyond. I should think the same would be the case in the states. Not to mention, AWD 2.0 TDIs....... they better sell a hell of a lot of AWD 1.8s to even consider adding that to the roster.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Did anybody realize (I totally forgot in the hustle and bustle of buyback frenzy) that I think in about another week to 10 days is when CARB/EPA should either approve or disapprove the "fix" for the Gen3 cars? Could be a glimmer of good hope if that 3rd generation engine gets approved - I'd like to do an Alltrack TDI if possible, as I doubt very highly the Gen 1's will ever get fixed to the CARB approval


I'm curious to hear what the fix will be for our 12" tdi Touareg.....not to mention how they are going to deal with warranty; since it came out they were turning emission stuff off to keep from having warranty repair costs......

it's going to be interesting.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

phospher5 said:


> I wouldn't count on that vehicle coming here anytime soon. There has been some formal announcements in Canada about the halting of diesel sales into 2017 and perhaps beyond. I should think the same would be the case in the states. Not to mention, AWD 2.0 TDIs....... they better sell a hell of a lot of AWD 1.8s to even consider adding that to the roster.


The Canadian 'announcement' was just following what VW US said when they settled withthe US dealers....


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW CEO Mueller had no knowledge of diesel scandal, paper says*



> FRANKFURT -- Volkswagen Group CEO Matthias Mueller had no knowledge of the company's diesel emissions cheating, Germany's Bild am Sonntag newspaper said, citing a report by Jones Day, the law firm tasked with investigating the scandal.
> 
> Mueller found out about Volkswagen's emissions cheating software on Sept. 18, 2015, when U.S. regulators revealed the German carmaker had faked pollution tests, the paper reported.
> 
> ...


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

spockcat said:


> *VW CEO Mueller had no knowledge of diesel scandal, paper says*


----------



## firstorbit84 (Feb 25, 2006)

"VW's sports car division, Porsche" lol


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

so what happens if the settlement does not get final approval on the 18th? is that even possible?


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

benjaminobscene said:


> so what happens if the settlement does not get final approval on the 18th? is that even possible?


Possible? Sure. What happens? Wait for VW & Breyer to hammer out a deal.

Just like if by the time of the deadline CARB rejects any or all of the proposed fixes for those who want to keep their cars.


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

I guess what I'm wondering is if there's a chance the buybacks fall through


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

At this point, approving the deal on 18 October is a formality. There will be few changes from what we already know - perhaps wording clarifications here and there, perhaps some of the exceptional circumstances that weren't foreseen before might be addressed in some way - but the gist of it won't change.

The delay until the 18 October was to provide a period for public comments as required by various underlying laws, and also to give VW a chance to get their ducks in a row for actually getting the buyback processes done.

There isn't going to be an "Oops! Sorry, we're not going ahead with this".


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Based on comments posted on here from both owners and salesman, I think VW is ready to roll starting Nov 1. 

For something of this caliber, I can not imagine that VW is in a position to walk in one day and start processing 400k buybacks. There is a process in place and the process has taken time to develop. That said, the plan could easily be delayed if they piss off the judge. 

I am expecting this buyback to begin shortly after approval and I expect the approval to happen on Oct 18.


----------



## SpeedyD (Jun 9, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> I see where the disconnect is here. You believe that you own the Passat. The reason you are not getting $26,000 is because you don't own it. You own only a fractional share - the share you've paid for. If you wanted the full benefits of ownership, you would need to own it outright. The bank paid for the car, not you. As such, they still own (apparently) a $21,000 share of the car. That's nothing personal or any fault of VW. That's between you and the bank or whoever made the loan and actually paid for the car.
> 
> Please be real with yourself though. You're writing as if you're entitled to something that you're not. You're not entitled to the $26,000 because it isn't entirely your car in the first place. If you want the full benefits of ownership, you need to actually own that car yourself with no liens or loans on it..


Nailed it!


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

I have been holding off on committing to a new purchase on the outside chance that something get delayed. Sounds like the hearing is more a formality than anything else, but who knows what could happen. Guess we will find out in 8 days.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

Anyone else got the "VWGoA Online Claims Portal ? Document Upload Functionality" email? I just got it at 10pm. Haven't filed it completely yet since it wants a copy of my registration, copy of ID and everything. I'm assuming it's not a scam but figured I'd ask on here also.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

SixpackMk3 said:


> Anyone else got the "VWGoA Online Claims Portal ? Document Upload Functionality" email? I just got it at 10pm. Haven't filed it completely yet since it wants a copy of my registration, copy of ID and everything. I'm assuming it's not a scam but figured I'd ask on here also.


What URL does it link to? When in doubt, simply do not click on links in emails, go to https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/ and fill it out directly on the source website. If you go there and click on "Online claims portal" it links to claims.vwgoa.com.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

I think it is legit. It goes to the site where we had to register. https://claims.vwgoa.com


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

didn't get the email yet, but as soon as I log into the claims portal it prompts me to upload the documents.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

It is legit. It's a part of the claim process and the documents needed to verify you as the owner. We are already reviewing these docs!


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Yep - ultimately - *https://claims.vwgoa.com* is the place you actually FILE your claim for VW action (BB or VW guilt money .. and wait to see if they can actually "fix" these)


----------



## JackStraw79 (Aug 10, 2015)

Documents Uploaded!


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

JackStraw79 said:


> Documents Uploaded!


samesies. gimme my money!


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Waiting to see how much more time than two years VW will get from the courts to get this done. :vampire:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

We are only a couple of days away from possibly hearing the final ruling that will begin the buyback process. 

Has anyone heard any leaked info?


----------



## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

^^^^^^^^^^^
Not sure what the above Trump picture has to do with this thread??  :screwy:


Anyway, back to the news:

*VW to pay $175 million to U.S. lawyers suing over emissions*



> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen AG, in another step to move past its costly diesel emissions scandal, has agreed to pay $175 million to U.S. lawyers suing the German automaker on behalf of 475,000 owners of vehicles that violate U.S. environmental rules, two people briefed on the agreement said on Friday.
> 
> In August, the lawyers in the class action litigation sought up to $332.5 million in fees and costs for their work in a $10 billion settlement that gives U.S. owners of 2.0 liter polluting cars the ability to sell back their vehicles to Volkswagen.
> 
> ...


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

benjaminobscene said:


> didn't get the email yet, but as soon as I log into the claims portal it prompts me to upload the documents.


Same here. No email but a friend noted he uploaded his docs and so I logged in again and saw that they wanted mine, so I did.


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

My coworker with a Passat indicated that his docs were approved.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

We are doing docs this weekend!


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

SO how are the plebs who don't use the internet going to do it. Not everyone has a scanner, smartphone or even knows about this webpage.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Aseras said:


> SO how are the plebs who don't use the internet going to do it. Not everyone has a scanner, smartphone or even knows about this webpage.


VW Dealerships will probably be falling over themselves to get such a person in the door. Think about it: if the dealership can be the _good guy_ helping you out, they are probably 10x more likely to convert that person's vehicle return into a new or CPO car sale. The dealers will LOVE for people to show up in person to turn in the required paperwork because it lets them make friends and be associated with that customer getting paid thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars. And hey, now that you turned your car in, how about we come have a look at the new Passat?


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> VW Dealerships will probably be falling over themselves to get such a person in the door. Think about it: if the dealership can be the _good guy_ helping you out, they are probably 10x more likely to convert that person's vehicle return into a new or CPO car sale. The dealers will LOVE for people to show up in person to turn in the required paperwork because it lets them make friends and be associated with that customer getting paid thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars. And hey, now that you turned your car in, how about we come have a look at the new Passat?


Speak of the devil. I received this on Friday:

To our valued guests,

Please join Gurley Leep Motorwerks for a special Volkswagen TDI dinner party. We know the settlement on your TDI is confusing and well, let's be honest, a bit frustrating. That's why Gurley Leep Motorwerks is here to help guide you through the process and be your preferred dealer.


Thank you and we look forward to seeing you the Volkswagen TDI Dinner!


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Claims are getting reviewed for sure!  VW needs to stop dragging their feet though and get this over with.


----------



## jerzrunr (Jan 6, 2009)

Had an interesting chat with the sales dude at our local VW dealership. ('cause they always have all the latest & accurate info) 

He said that the VW dealers couldn't treat the buyout cars/dollars as trade-ins towards a new VW. We get our payout, and that VW is competing on level playing field with any other dealers.

Is that what others are hearing or reading?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

jerzrunr said:


> Had an interesting chat with the sales dude at our local VW dealership. ('cause they always have all the latest & accurate info)
> 
> He said that the VW dealers couldn't treat the buyout cars/dollars as trade-ins towards a new VW. We get our payout, and that VW is competing on level playing field with any other dealers.
> 
> Is that what others are hearing or reading?


Well the dealer isn't the one taking title to the car or paying out the actual cash. So it makes perfect sense.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

Yeah that's almost certainly the case because of how the buybacks are structured and funded. Too bad, as that would have saved me over $2,000 in sales tax reduction on a new car. If I were able to take it as a trade allowance I'd definitely be staying loyal to the brand.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Heres my question:

I am on a lease, buyout is something like $12k. The charts for VW to buy me out is $21,137 - $26,117 if I owned the car. 

Can I buy my car outright from VW and then sell it back to them on a buyout?


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

aj4066 said:


> Heres my question:
> 
> I am on a lease, buyout is something like $12k. The charts for VW to buy me out is $21,137 - $26,117 if I owned the car.
> 
> Can I buy my car outright from VW and then sell it back to them on a buyout?


You would be an eligible lessee, not an eligible owner. Even though you are an 'owner' VW has a specific case for people who bought out their leases after June 28th. If you bought it out prior to that date, you'd be an eligible owner instead....

So here is what you would get:

The Lessee Restitution shall be comprised of two
components: a variable component and a fixed component. The variable component is
10% of the Eligible Vehicle’s Base Value adjusted for options but not mileage, as
described in ¶¶ 11 and 12(a) below; and the fixed component is $1,529. The fixed
component is the same for every Eligible Lessee and is equal to half of the average fixed
component of Owner Restitution for Eligible Owners who purchased their vehicles on or
before September 18, 2015 (including the amount required to fund the $5,100 minimum).
There is no minimum Lessee Restitution for leased Eligible Vehicles. The table below
shows, as an example, compensation for an Eligible Lessee with a Base Value adjusted
for options of $10,000 (not adjusted for mileage using the NADA mileage table)

From: https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/e...Settlement Agreement/Exhibit 1 - Benefits.pdf 

Now, what is more interesting... is the eligibility process asks if 'Did YOU previously lease the vehicle' - not 'Was the vehicle leased'.... So this would lead me to believe that if you bought out the vehicle from the lease, then sold it to someone else, THEY would be considered an eligible seller, not an eligible lessee. 

Now, I'm not saying that you should buy the car, and 'sell' it to a family member for $1, and then work out a deal with them to split or whatever with the buyout money... but it seems like that could actually work...


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

:thumbup:

Heres to tomorrows court ruling. :beer:


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

aj4066 said:


> Heres to tomorrows court ruling.


Amen, want to get this damn A3 off my driveway!!!!


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> Heres to tomorrows court ruling. :beer:


It just dawned on me that the news broke on September 18th, 2015, so tomorrow's ruling will be exactly 13 months after VW went public with the cheating. That's a long time to wait as a consumer, but a very quick result as a plaintiff.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

AZGolf said:


> It just dawned on me that the news broke on September 18th, 2015, so tomorrow's ruling will be exactly 13 months after VW went public with the cheating. That's a long time to wait as a consumer, but a very quick result as a plaintiff.


I see 13 months as totally acceptable.

The cars run fine, it's not like they all became inoperable 13 months ago.

Yes, it could have gone quicker I suppose, if VW had just totally rolled over immediately and agreed to whatever terms the government and the class-action attorneys dreamed up. But that wouldn't have been responsible, VW has shareholders to answer to.

I'm not at all displeased that this massive buyback program was put in place in just 13 months, perhaps in part because I'm going to keep my TDI through the end of 2018 then sell it back.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

So I'm assuming that with court approval tomorrow, buybacks can commence anytime after that?


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

Mazda 3s said:


> So I'm assuming that with court approval tomorrow, buybacks can commence anytime after that?


Hopefully! Ours is doing a good job of collecting leaves in the yard though.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Ours is becoming a good test dirt collection site.. It gets driven once or twice a month with a nice outline of the wipers from no longer being "loved". :laugh::laugh:


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

aaaaaand my golf TDI is officially parked. here's to hoping my buyback appointment is Oct 19th.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

I drive mine once a week.

But only because I need to remind myself of some German refinement after driving a 20 year old Civic hatch on a daily basis :laugh:


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

drove mine about 2 miles today to make sure it starts and the calipers were not stuck. Called the court settlement program number regarding change of address and older docs being an issue but was told they were approved already. The girl chuckled when I asked her "tomorrow is judgement day, right?"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Charles Devine (Aug 22, 2007)

Does anyone else’s documentation still show pending? Mine has been in blue pending stage for about a month now. Of course, the claims line is a 2 hour wait right now... 

-Charles


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

bdc12 said:


> Yeah that's almost certainly the case because of how the buybacks are structured and funded. Too bad, as that would have saved me over $2,000 in sales tax reduction on a new car. If I were able to take it as a trade allowance I'd definitely be staying loyal to the brand.


You might have jurisdictional laws to blame for that. In Ontario there might be a tax refund in play. I would imagine some states would have that be the case as well, but others would know far better than I. And if so, structuring a deal to suit a blanket situation might be part of the equation for all the lawyers.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Checked and mine still is Pending, uploaded it about 2 days after I found out you could submit it...


----------



## Charles Devine (Aug 22, 2007)

automobiliben said:


> Checked and mine still is Pending, uploaded it about 2 days after I found out you could submit it...


Same here, I guess they are just that backlogged... my preliminary date is Nov 1st still though. I just want the car showing paid or removed on my credit so I can get approved for more on a house! 

-Charles


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

automobilihoneben said:


> Amen, want to get this damn A3 off my driveway!!!!


honestly i go back and forth on buyback ASAP vs waiting for the AEM fix sometime in late 2018 and then maybe choosing the buyback anyways. ALL THE TIME... like multiple times per day.

the car runs fine. my wife likes it. we can afford it.
so why not wait for a couple years to either see if the fix is good or even possible?

at that point we either get to keep the car and get $7k, meaning the car is paid off (since there is no plan to pre pay the car).
the new engine/emissions warranty is pretty stout based on how it read to me.

but if we dont like the pending AEM fix at the time, just change to the buyback.
then we get most of our loan payment money back minus the 2% interest we have been paying, big whoop.
driven a car essentially depreciation free for about 3 years.
get the full amount of the buyback as we would have if we had jumped on it asap.

hrrrmmpp!

cannot decide.
in a lot of ways to me keeping the car until the last possible time and then doing the buyback seems like the better financial choice.
and from an 'emotional' standpoint, we would have gotten to drive the car for 6 yrs, and now its time for something new(er) anyways.

when i say cannot decide... i mean, *I* cannot. my wife has already locked my indecisiveness down and wants to do the buyback asap.
my darker  half wants to force her to trade cars (jsw tdi for mazda6) so that i can milk out the depreciation free car for a couple years.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Charles Devine said:


> Does anyone else’s documentation still show pending? Mine has been in blue pending stage for about a month now. Of course, the claims line is a 2 hour wait right now...
> 
> -Charles


our is still pending as well.

you do know you can have the claims line do a callback right? you dont have to sit on hold.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

dunhamjr said:


> honestly i go back and forth on buyback ASAP vs waiting for the AEM fix sometime in late 2018 and then maybe choosing the buyback anyways. ALL THE TIME... like multiple times per day.
> 
> the car runs fine. my wife likes it. we can afford it.
> so why not wait for a couple years to either see if the fix is good or even possible?
> ...


Too late for me, I just want the A3 gone! Complete piece of junk, never will own a VW product again and this scandal just further proved that!


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

automobiliben said:


> Too late for me, I just want the A3 gone! Complete piece of junk, never will own a VW product again and this scandal just further proved that!


Considering the replacement you choose I would be saying the same as you.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> VW Dealerships will probably be falling over themselves to get such a person in the door. Think about it: if the dealership can be the _good guy_ helping you out, they are probably 10x more likely to convert that person's vehicle return into a new or CPO car sale. The dealers will LOVE for people to show up in person to turn in the required paperwork because it lets them make friends and be associated with that customer getting paid thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars. And hey, now that you turned your car in, how about we come have a look at the new Passat?


Lets just say i cant wait for this to happen :laugh::laugh:


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

dunhamjr said:


> Considering the replacement you choose I would be saying the same as you.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


I also design diesel engines for a living, so this scandal hits pretty close to home. Knowing the breadth of people involved to pull something like this off is sickening...


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

dunhamjr said:


> honestly i go back and forth on buyback ASAP vs waiting for the AEM fix sometime in late 2018 and then maybe choosing the buyback anyways. ALL THE TIME... like multiple times per day.
> 
> the car runs fine. my wife likes it. we can afford it.
> so why not wait for a couple years to either see if the fix is good or even possible?
> ...


My greatest fear is that VW will never develop a fix. Why should they? It looks like about 3000 dropped out of the class and about 80% are doing buyback. Is this correct? 

If they are already close to the 85% what keeps them from just paying the remaining penalty versus taking years of resources and money developing a fix and extending warranties on 5% of owners?

Especially if they can't meet EPA requirements for performance and drivablity? 

I wonder if there will be some source of information on how many cars are being turned in and have a running percentage of owners bought back. Then if they get to around 80% and no fix in sight switch from fix to buyback.

It would really suck for those of us who want to wait to see what this fix is to have VW say "nah we're good, don't need your car. Too bad, so sad."

Thoughts? 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

phospher5 said:


> You might have jurisdictional laws to blame for that. In Ontario there might be a tax refund in play. I would imagine some states would have that be the case as well, but others would know far better than I. And if so, structuring a deal to suit a blanket situation might be part of the equation for all the lawyers.


Yeah, good point. Here in Illinois you get tax credit for gross trade amount. Some states are net trade and some give squat. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

gcodori said:


> It would really suck for those of us who want to wait to see what this fix is to have VW say "nah we're good, don't need your car. Too bad, so sad."
> 
> Thoughts?


Yes, it would suck.

Fortunately, the proposed settlement doesn't allow VW to do that.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

gcodori said:


> My greatest fear is that VW will never develop a fix. Why should they? It looks like about *3000 dropped out of the class* and about 80% are doing buyback. Is this correct?



Why would people drop out? Are they trying to personally take legal action? Want to hide in the hills with their TDI?


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

automobiliben said:


> Too late for me, I just want the A3 gone! Complete piece of junk, never will own a VW product again and this scandal just further proved that!


What kind of car is that?


----------



## J-Tim (May 26, 2000)

automobiliben said:


> Too late for me, I just want the A3 gone! Complete piece of junk, never will own a VW product again and this scandal just further proved that!


And you bought a Commodore ? 

Not sure whether to laugh or feel sorry for you.


----------



## Atl-Atl (Jun 7, 2006)

J-Tim said:


> And you bought a Commodore ?
> 
> Not sure whether to laugh or feel sorry for you.


Seriously, the guys got two pontiacs and hes talkin sh*t about vw. :facepalm:


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

Sump said:


> Why would people drop out? Are they trying to personally take legal action? Want to hide in the hills with their TDI?


They can't sue individually unless they took legal action to remove themselves as an eligible person on or before September 16th. 

This answer is in the paperwork.

Then again, the answers to almost all the questions now being asked in this thread are in the paperwork.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

gcodori said:


> My greatest fear is that VW will never develop a fix. Why should they? It looks like about 3000 dropped out of the class and about 80% are doing buyback. Is this correct?
> 
> If they are already close to the 85% what keeps them from just paying the remaining penalty versus taking years of resources and money developing a fix and extending warranties on 5% of owners?
> 
> ...


If you are part of the class you get either a fix or a buyback, your choice at any point in which the program is still open.

If you say you want the fix now, then in 12 months just decide out of the blue to do the buyback after all... You get the buyback. 

If VW cannot develop a fix for your car, you get the buyback.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## silverxt (Feb 25, 2006)

J-Tim said:


> And you bought a Commodore ?
> 
> Not sure whether to laugh or feel sorry for you.


What's your story, did a Commodore beat you up and steal your lunch?


Atl-Atl said:


> Seriously, the guys got two pontiacs and hes talkin sh*t about vw. :facepalm:


Someone either doesn't know much about cars, or doesn't know how to count.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

biturbowagon said:


> They can't sue individually unless they took legal action to remove themselves as an eligible person on or before September 16th.
> 
> This answer is in the paperwork.
> 
> Then again, the answers to almost all the questions now being asked in this thread are in the paperwork.


Not scouring paperwork why people would drop out. If you know the answer and took the time to reply, why the attitude? Someone **** in your lunchbox?


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

My plan originally was to sell it back ASAP. Now that I have a new GTI though, I'm leaning toward driving the TDI through the winter and selling it back in March and just driving the GTI when it is dry out. I don't want to keep the TDi longer then that, as I will be approaching the 80k DSG service, leaking struts and most likely front pads and rotors. I think i made it through the August inspection unscathed only because the shop owner knew I would be getting rid of it soon.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW sued by Missouri over diesel emissions*



> WASHINGTON -- The state of Missouri sued Volkswagen Group on Monday, becoming the 17th U.S. state to take legal action against the automaker over diesel emissions violations.
> 
> Separately, U.S. District Judge Charles Breyer on Tuesday in San Francisco is set to hold a hearing on whether to grant final approval of a $10.033 billion settlement with 475,000 owners of 2.0-liter Volkswagen vehicles. The proposed settlement would allow owners to sell back their polluting vehicles or get a fix if regulators approve.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW said to seek final approval of U.S. emissions deal without agreed fix*



> DETROIT/SAN FRANCISCO/WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen Group is asking for a final sign-off on its $14.7 billion settlement with drivers as it continues to seek regulators' approval of a fix for 482,000 vehicles still on U.S. roads.
> 
> Without an approved repair, VW may be left with only one option: buy back the cars with so-called defeat devices from the owners. And the automaker might have to do the same for a smaller group of vehicles with larger 3.0-liter diesel engines equipped with the emissions-cheating software.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Not that I'm not hugely in the buyback camp though, but any news on if CARB approved or rejected the Gen 3 TDI fix?

If it gets approved, would that open the door to 2017 and 2018 TDI's since it would I imagine be the same engine?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Volkswagen diesel scandal under Canadian government scrutiny
Investigation extends to include Audi and Porsche*



> Volkswagen Canada is being investigated under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act for importing vehicles with software intended to defeat emissions testing.
> 
> In a statement emailed to Automotive News Canada, a sister publication of Automotive News Europe, Environment and Climate Change Canada said that it is "actively investigating" certain Volkswagen, Audi, and Porsche diesel vehicles equipped with prohibited defeat devices, said ECCC spokesperson, Melanie Quesnel.
> 
> ...


----------



## Atl-Atl (Jun 7, 2006)

silverxt said:


> What's your story, did a Commodore beat you up and steal your lunch?
> 
> Someone either doesn't know much about cars, or doesn't know how to count.


Alright mr serious its a joke. In reality though, the picture shows his car and a solstice in the background, so yeah two pontiacs. You can keep lying to yourself if you want but the SS is just Chevy's way of getting rid of old pontiac/holden parts.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

As a current Chevy SS owner... I approve!



automobiliben said:


> Too late for me, I just want the A3 gone! Complete piece of junk, never will own a VW product again and this scandal just further proved that!


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

OK, so the wife and I have started to look at some replacement vehicles for our TDi. We finding it hard to find anything for the amount of the buyback offer (17k). We really don't want to have a car payment at this time. How can I find out how much the buyback amount would be with another 10k on is another 8 months of time? 

The other thing that sucks is that our check engine light has been coming on and off for the last two weeks. I really don't want to dump any more money into this thing, and I can't afford another car right now. Ugh.

Can i get a new Golf wagon for 17k VW after incentives? Or maybe a CPO'd one.


----------



## Atl-Atl (Jun 7, 2006)

AJB said:


> OK, so the wife and I have started to look at some replacement vehicles for our TDi. We finding it hard to find anything for the amount of the buyback offer (17k). We really don't want to have a car payment at this time. How can I find out how much the buyback amount would be with another 10k on is another 8 months of time?
> 
> The other thing that sucks is that our check engine light has been coming on and off for the last two weeks. I really don't want to dump any more money into this thing, and I can't afford another car right now. Ugh.
> 
> Can i get a new Golf wagon for 17k VW after incentives? Or maybe a CPO'd one.


There are a few CPO golf sportwagens on cars.com at $17,000 and a bunch in the $18,XXX range.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

AJB; said:


> Can i get a new Golf wagon for 17k VW after incentives? Or maybe a CPO'd one.


No, but here is a 2017 Jetta S for $16,999 http://www.shearervw.com/new-South+Burlington-2017-Volkswagen-Jetta-14T+S-3VW167AJXHM236163


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

AJB said:


> OK, so the wife and I have started to look at some replacement vehicles for our TDi. We finding it hard to find anything for the amount of the buyback offer (17k).


You must have a lot of miles on your car. Our 11 Golf has 68,000 miles and our buyback is close to $21,000


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

AJB said:


> How can I find out how much the buyback amount would be with another 10k on is another 8 months of time?


The mileage allotment is 12,500/yr or 1,041/mo. If you stay within that there is no change.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Atl-Atl said:


> Alright mr serious its a joke. In reality though, the picture shows his car and a solstice in the background, so yeah two pontiacs. You can keep lying to yourself if you want but the SS is just Chevy's way of getting rid of old pontiac/holden parts.


But I thought the VF Commodore was really made with left over E39 M5 parts?


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

AJB said:


> OK, so the wife and I have started to look at some replacement vehicles for our TDi. We finding it hard to find anything for the amount of the buyback offer (17k). We really don't want to have a car payment at this time. How can I find out how much the buyback amount would be with another 10k on is another 8 months of time?
> 
> The other thing that sucks is that our check engine light has been coming on and off for the last two weeks. I really don't want to dump any more money into this thing, and I can't afford another car right now. Ugh.
> 
> Can i get a new Golf wagon for 17k VW after incentives? Or maybe a CPO'd one.



I anticipate that VW will be offering incentives to TDI owners. -and the reason I think this is because my local VW dealer is buying me a dinner tomorrow to discuss getting me out of my TDI. I know some think otherwise because the demand for new vehicles will be high, but that is my thought. 

Outside of VW, have you considered a Subi Outback? Im seeing 2012-2014 certified Outbacks in your price range on Auto Trader.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

aj4066 said:


> I anticipate that VW will be offering incentives to TDI owners. -and the reason I think this is because my local VW dealer is buying me a dinner tomorrow to discuss getting me out of my TDI. I know some think otherwise because the demand for new vehicles will be high, but that is my thought.


i dont think this is unreasonable either.

there are nearly 500k owners coming up that are going to need new cars. if VW doesnt try to retain them now... that is a loss for immediate sales recoveries, dealerships service departments over the next couple of years, and probably for future sales to these same people because if they get taken by other brands VW will have to fight even harder to get them back.

although. i am not 100% that they will worry TOO much about TDI specific owners, and just be trying to get any buyer possible. we have already seen this with a number of dealers doing $3-6k off of MSRP already over the past year just to be sure that they keep people in the family.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

automobiliben said:


> But I thought the VF Commodore was really made with left over E39 M5 parts?


:laugh:

the SS is such an awesome car situation. i do wish one was on my radar, but i just cannot make that sort of purchase right now. (too many cars right now, trying to trim down. also saving a DP for next house purchase in 1-2yrs)


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

Chilcoot said:


> Yes, it would suck.
> 
> Fortunately, the proposed settlement doesn't allow VW to do that.


Doesn't the settlement say 85% or increased penalties for each remaining car?

So can't VW simply get to 85% via the buyback and then say they met the settlement and there's no fix required. Or they get to 82% and simply pay penalties on the remaining 3% to get to the 85% since it would be cheaper than trying to develop a fix that won't meet EPA requirements?

Does the settlement say that everyone who stays in the class gets something, either a buyback or fix? What if 90% of the owners do the buyback and the remaining 10% want the fix. Is VW required to give them the fix even if they surpassed the required 85% recall amount?

I thought that the settlement was 85% and VW would likely cut everything off right at 85% and everyone else is out of luck.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

*Court Approval*

The judge passed on approving the settlement. He wants to review the objections and determine if any modifications are in order. He indicated he'll kick out an order by next Tuesday.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Waiting till Tuesday for final info. 

Great twitter based commentary of the proceedings here: https://twitter.com/PatrickMcGee_?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

tomski12 said:


> The judge passed on approving the settlement. He wants to review the objections and determine if any modifications are in order. He indicated he'll kick out an order by next Tuesday.


I can't find any news source for this. -but that would align with a Nov1 launch date for dealers.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

aj4066 said:


> Speak of the devil. I received this on Friday:
> 
> To our valued guests,
> 
> ...


A friend of mine called to RSVP for this and the receptionist mentioned that they are catering Ruths Chris Steakhouse


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

aj4066 said:


> I can't find any news source for this. -but that would align with a Nov1 launch date for dealers.


I was in the hearing.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

I've been on the look out for a 2.5. 5SM for a replacement, but there aren't many w/ in 100 miles of me. Did VW not produce many 2.5 JSW or are people holding on to them? 
Most for sale are not manual and that is a major requirement for the wife.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

aj4066 said:


> A friend of mine called to RSVP for this and the receptionist mentioned that they are catering Ruths Chris Steakhouse


Daaaaaamn! I'd certainly go! 

Yeah, I know. They're wanting to sell a new car to me, but I'd listen to their spiel for a free steak from there. :thumbup:


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

E CODE said:


> Waiting till Tuesday for final info.
> 
> Great twitter based commentary of the proceedings here: https://twitter.com/PatrickMcGee_?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author


Good grief


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

http://reut.rs/2eeZcFq


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

Yay to waiting another week.....:banghead:


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

Mazda 3s said:


> Good grief


I know it's like reliving this thread all over again


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Air and water do mix said:


> Daaaaaamn! I'd certainly go!
> 
> Yeah, I know. They're wanting to sell a new car to me, but I'd listen to their spiel for a free steak from there. :thumbup:


Heck yeah. And quite honestly, I am sorta in the market for a GTI. I will gladly go eat a steak and talk a deal to get out of my Jetta. :beer:


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/latest-owners-10b-volkswagen-deal-42884114



> A federal judge in San Francisco said he's strongly inclined to approve a nearly $15 billion settlement over Volkswagen's emissions cheating scandal.U.S. District Judge Charles Breyer made the comments at a hearing Tuesday to determine whether the deal is fair to consumers and should receive final approval. He didn't immediately issue a decision after hearing from Volkswagen owners opposed the settlement.
> 
> Breyer says he wants to consider objections to determine whether to recommend any changes and will issue a final ruling by Oct. 25.
> 
> ...


Yup, October 25th it is. :banghead:

So did all the whiners from this thread actually show up in court today?


----------



## gw204 (Apr 18, 2005)

I'm disappointed in the outcome of today's hearing...but not at all surprised. :thumbdown:


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

VT1.8T said:


> You must have a lot of miles on your car. Our 11 Golf has 68,000 miles and our buyback is close to $21,000


We bought are 2011 tdi in November of 2011, it has just under 100k on it.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Atl-Atl said:


> There are a few CPO golf sportwagens on cars.com at $17,000 and a bunch in the $18,XXX range.


Yeah, I've been looking. But none within a reasonable range that are a wagon and 5-speed. Also wife has a must have for heated seats. But I'm not even sure she can get heated seats and the 5-speed. And another thing is most of the used ones I found only have cloth interior.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

GoFaster said:


> At this point, approving the deal on 18 October is a formality.


The deal was not approved today (18 October).


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

... evidently, thanks to a small number of TDI owners who either have special circumstances that fall through the cracks in the original proposal (I hope this is the case), or simply who think they're special and deserve more (I fear this is the case). "Strongly inclined to approve ..."

It'll go through, perhaps with minor changes, it's just a week later.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

Some of the objections related to attorney's fees. Basically, people who hired attorneys early on whose cases were consolidated into the multi district litigation are peeved that they'll have to pay their attorney's fees while the Plaintiff's Steering Committee will keep all of the fees. Another object related to a company called Wheels. They're a company that provides company cars to a number of companies. Apparently, they have about 1% of the affected cars. They want the mileage calculations taken as of 9/18/2015 since they keep accurate records of the mileage of their cars. Specifically,when you have a Wheels car, you have to put in your mileage whenever you fill up with gas. So, they don't like the generic mileage categories. Others were objecting based on the buyback calculations being based on NADA trade in values.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

GoFaster said:


> ... evidently, thanks to a small number of TDI owners who either have special circumstances that fall through the cracks in the original proposal (I hope this is the case), or simply who think they're special and deserve more (I fear this is the case). "Strongly inclined to approve ..."
> 
> It'll go through, perhaps with minor changes, it's just a week later.


i get the complaint. 
VW is getting away with giving us trade-in value on the car, and using the damages/restitution money to balance the numbers off so we don't feel stiffed.
why are they being allowed give us trade-in value on a car we paid a retail amount for? and that we will have to again pay retail price to replace. THAT doesnt seem right to me.

not sure i understand demanding full purchase price though (unless they just meant dealer retail, instead of trade in)
IMO, the buyback package should be dealer retail (not trade in) PLUS the damages amount.

so not full purchase price per se, but market price isnt unreasonable in my mind.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

dunhamjr said:


> i get the complaint.
> VW is getting away with giving us trade-in value on the car, and using the damages/restitution money to balance the numbers off so we don't feel stiffed.
> why are they being allowed give us trade-in value on a car we paid a retail amount for? and that we will have to again pay retail price to replace. THAT doesnt seem right to me.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'd make it simple, just add 3k to whatever your buyback price is. issue resolved.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

The counter-argument (and I understand that this was presented in today's hearing) is that trade-in plus 20% roughly equals retail anyhow. If the numbers were to have been based on retail then there wouldn't have been that additional percentage.

Having read the TDIclub thread in which someone listened in on the hearings, I believe the judge has to take time to "consider" the objections - which will likely consist of reading them, seeing that the objections were already considered in the negotiations (or seeing that the objections are just complainers looking to cash in on the situation), then tossing them out. None of the objections that appear to have been presented, introduce any new arguments that haven't already been heard a thousand times over.

People that are under the impression that their car is worth more than the numbers say they are getting for it, are free to not participate in the deal and simply keep on driving. I'm sure that will be presented as the counter-argument for ALL of the people who are delusional about what their vehicle is worth.

The numbers of TDI owners who have already signed up for the deal and not opted out, are indicative that most people seem to think it's fair. I'm sure that will also be taken into account.

The judge has to do their due diligence, make it look like the arguments are being taken into account, and will likely approve the deal with very few changes (if any), sometime in the next week.

The wheels of justice turn slowly.


----------



## svb (Mar 27, 2009)

this is very, very commonplace

judges will typically issue a "tentative ruling" either in writing or just in oral statements from the bench, let both sides argue their hearts out, then say "ok I'll take everything into consideration and give you a ruling in a few days," and then a few days later the ruling goes out that looks _exactly like the tentative ruling._


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

GoFaster said:


> The counter-argument (and I understand that this was presented in today's hearing) is that trade-in plus 20% roughly equals retail anyhow. If the numbers were to have been based on retail then there wouldn't have been that additional percentage.


What VW is doing is the equivalent of someone borrowing $100 from you with a promise to pay it back in 13 months. When it comes time to pay you back, they only pay you $80 and then say they will be generous and throw in some extra generous compensation to the tune of $20. They say that the $100 is worth less now than it was 13 months ago.

They then point at the hundred dollars and yell to everyone within earshot "hey everyone! I paid GoFaster all his money back PLUS a generous reward. VW is so generous, right?!?" When in reality, they just used the generous compensation amount to bring the total returned to where it should have been in the first place and no extra compensation for the time and aggravation.

All joking aside, I'm in the "fix it" camp and I'm more worried that VW will simply hit it's target stated in the agreement thru the buybacks and not bothering with the fix/warranty at all.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

I USED to be in the fix it camp. But then my DPF light has been coming on and off started about two months ago. Plus my check engine light just started coming on and off about a month ago. Again we were planing on keeping the car to about 200k or about 10 years for us. But I have to take what is "known" (buyback amount) compared to what is "unknown" (fix and warranty extension). PLus now with the dashboard lighting up like a Christmas tree...We are getting rid of the car.

Looking for a Golf /Jetta Wagon CPO'd, Gasser with a 5-speed, heated seats and fake leather interior.


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

tomski12 said:


> Others were objecting based on the buyback calculations being based on NADA trade in values.


People are complaining about their buyback price?

A coworker has a 13 Golf TDI, bought it for $24k and has driven about $45k miles. He is getting back $23k......


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

shawshank redemption said:


> People are complaining about their buyback price?
> 
> A coworker has a 13 Golf TDI, bought it for $24k and has driven about $45k miles. He is getting back $23k......


My view is that the buyback price should be separate from the restitution payment since you get the restitution payment if you keep the car.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

shawshank redemption said:


> People are complaining about their buyback price?
> 
> A coworker has a 13 Golf TDI, bought it for $24k and has driven about $45k miles. He is getting back $23k......


I don't get it either. TDIs are near worthless (not really, but might as well be). Who is going to give you the value that VW is offering?

The way I see it, the total compensation for the buyback come within a $1,000 or so of what I actually paid for the car over three years ago. How the hell are you ever gonna be able to score a deal like that on another car purchase?

I'm not exactly sure what people are actually expecting. They already gave us $1,000


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

gcodori said:


> What VW is doing is the equivalent of someone borrowing $100 from you with a promise to pay it back in 13 months. When it comes time to pay you back, they only pay you $80 and then say they will be generous and throw in some extra generous compensation to the tune of $20. They say that the $100 is worth less now than it was 13 months ago.
> 
> They then point at the hundred dollars and yell to everyone within earshot "hey everyone! I paid GoFaster all his money back PLUS a generous reward. VW is so generous, right?!?" When in reality, they just used the generous compensation amount to bring the total returned to where it should have been in the first place and no extra compensation for the time and aggravation.
> 
> All joking aside, I'm in the "fix it" camp and I'm more worried that VW will simply hit it's target stated in the agreement thru the buybacks and not bothering with the fix/warranty at all.


All well and good, but don't forget also that you are getting paid back the Sept 2015 value (or whatever they assess the Sept 2015 value at) despite being able to drive the car for as much as 3 years afterward - the year (and change) that has already passed, plus the two more years until the buyback deadline.

If I buy something for $100 that is known to depreciate (say) 20% every year and I have a firm promise to buy that something back for $80 plus extra generous compensation for the tune of $20 but I'm able to continue using that something for three years, I'll take that deal!


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

GoFaster said:


> The numbers of TDI owners who have already signed up for the deal and not opted out, are indicative that most people seem to think it's fair.


I'm not so sure about that. It could also reflect a "it's good enough and we want to just move on" feeling too.

I'm not one of the people that objected, but assuming people are demanding a full refund of what they paid for the car, I certainly would see their point of view.

Consider this example...
http://www.curbed.com/2016/6/28/12050612/ikea-recall-refund-dressers-models

"Consumers who purchased a recalled Ikea dresser or chest manufactured between January 2002 and June 2016 are entitled to a full refund."

These people still got use out of the dresser. If sold on the used market such as Craigslist, it's "worth" a fraction of the full Ikea price they paid but yet they are still eligible for a full refund.

What makes an automobile any different? It was non-compliant from day one of ownership right off the dealer's showroom floor, just like a dangerous piece of furniture.

With smaller-ticket items, it's very common for recalls to result in a full refund even though the product has been in use and dropped in value. Why would a car be any different?


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

gti_matt said:


> I'm not so sure about that. It could also reflect a "it's good enough and we want to just move on" feeling too.
> 
> I'm not one of the people that objected, but assuming people are demanding a full refund of what they paid for the car, I certainly would see their point of view.
> 
> ...


:facepalm:

seriously???? "dangerous" furniture and a car???

the law is equitable, and that's what it will hand down, an equitable settlement.....the cars were fully used, even still used, that fact that they are not emission compliant is an issue into itself, and no direct losses to the owners.

the settlement is more than equitable...the cars were used and have depreciated. simple. 

FYI - the only issue with the Ikea Malm dresser (and I have one) is, if they are not anchored to a wall, they can fall over when a kid climbs on them.....they are not defective.


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

.LSinLV. said:


> seriously???? "dangerous" furniture and a car???


They're both consumer products.

One is offered with a fix or a full refund.

The other is offered with a fix (which isn't guaranteed) or a partial refund.

Why treated differently?

Furthermore, my original intent of the vehicle was to own it for a good 10-15 years. The car is paid for (and has been paid for for about two years now).

Due to VW's intentional misrepresentation of its product from day one, I am forced into a situation where:
1. I own a car today whose entire history is known to me (I am the original owner) and the car is never crashed or wrecked.
2. I cannot get such a guarantee if I buy a used car.
3. I can only get such a guarantee if I buy a new car.
4. There is no similarly-equipped new car that can replace this one where I won't have a payment (pretty much everything comparable is more expensive than the proposed TDI buyback).
5. I cannot afford any additional payment now (I paid the car off a while back to purchase a house).

So why should VW's intentional misrepresentation of their product be permitted to put me in the situation I am now where I have to take on a new-car payment or settle for a lesser vehicle? In the end, it is *their* intentional actions, not mine, that thwarted my plan of keeping this paid-off car for at least a decade. So really if there are owners out there that feel that they won't settle for less than their original purchase price, I sure as hell am not going to disagree with them.


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

gti_matt said:


> I'm not so sure about that. It could also reflect a "it's good enough and we want to just move on" feeling too.
> 
> I'm not one of the people that objected, but assuming people are demanding a full refund of what they paid for the car, I certainly would see their point of view.
> 
> ...


Different type of use. Out of all commodities I would suggest that cars, and houses each have their own unique categories and not be lumped together...while almost everything else can be lumped together.
I get where you are headed, but I disagree. The TDI is not really dangerous. Plus you hit the nail on the head when you said smaller ticket items. That ikea dresser cost very little to make, and not all that much to ship, overhead, and sell....


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

gti_matt said:


> They're both consumer products.
> 
> One is offered with a fix or a full refund.
> 
> ...


ok then, take the money, have the car fixed and drive it.

where's the issue??? you don't have to turn it in. you can keep it.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

gti_matt said:


> They're both consumer products.
> 
> One is offered with a fix or a full refund.
> 
> ...


^^^This is exactly how I feel.



.LSinLV. said:


> ok then, take the money, have the car fixed and drive it.
> 
> where's the issue??? you don't have to turn it in. you can keep it.


Yes we could do this except before DieselGate TDi's were in general worth MORE than KBB values. So if I was to keep the car its now worth next to nothing if you decide to sell the car in the future as stated above. So if you want to make the best of the situation, the buyback is the best option if you want to get the most value out of the car even though its less than what I expected.


----------



## silverxt (Feb 25, 2006)

Atl-Atl said:


> Alright mr serious its a joke. In reality though, the picture shows his car and a solstice in the background, so yeah two pontiacs. You can keep lying to yourself if you want but the SS is just Chevy's way of getting rid of old pontiac/holden parts.


Another joke?

Please let me know which parts on my car are Pontiac parts.


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

AJB said:


> ^^^This is exactly how I feel.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes we could do this except before DieselGate TDi's were in general worth MORE than KBB values. So if I was to keep the car its now worth next to nothing if you decide to sell the car in the future as stated above. So if you want to make the best of the situation, the buyback is the best option if you want to get the most value out of the car even though its less than what I expected.


I dunno man, this argument has been had over and over. I have seen the buyback amounts..... they are very good. I have seen the compensation amounts........ they are very good. If someone claims they wanted to keep the car for a long time, the compensation is a bonus. If someone was wanting to sell the car, I call BS on the buyback being low or anything less than great in 95% of the scenarios available. RETAIL price for a used car is not something these people whining about diminished value were every going to get in the real world as it is. Dealerships have a decent spread, plus potential costs worked into each vehicle. 

The only thing I am mildly annoyed at are the timelines, but then again... it's not been all that long in the grand scheme of things.The fact is, if someone's financial life depended on being able to sell their TDI that is used then they probably have bigger issues. Contingency Contingency. I have a TDI, and I have very little sympathy for the people still whining about this....... Oh and here's another one for you. I live in Canada, so we are behind the states in timelines.... but again, not the end of the world. I can manage my finances and stop pretending that my CAR was an investment!


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

gti_matt said:


> They're both consumer products.
> 
> One is offered with a fix or a full refund.
> 
> ...


Stop being dense, you know full well what the difference is. Ikea will probably spend 0.0001% of their annual revenue on the recall. So offering a full refund is no big deal. VW is on the hook for something closer to 7.5% of annual revenue, which is a TON of money. Moving it up to a full refund could double it to 15%, totally wiping out their profit for the year, or maybe even two. That's without counting criminal penalties that will follow after this civil suit is settled, and not counting what the rest of the world may levy, although the US has the strongest automotive emissions laws so it's pretty safe to say that this is the majority of the expense for the company. That's the difference: if you raise the penalty to a stupid high level, you transition into the realm of cruelty as opposed to making it right for the consumer.


----------



## Atl-Atl (Jun 7, 2006)

silverxt said:


> Another joke?
> 
> Please let me know which parts on my car are Pontiac parts.


You're kidding right? All of them.


----------



## silverxt (Feb 25, 2006)

Atl-Atl said:


> You're kidding right? All of them.


If you say so chief.


----------



## Atl-Atl (Jun 7, 2006)

silverxt said:


> If you say so chief.


Please tell me how your SS is not a Commodore and is not a G8 GT.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Atl-Atl said:


> Please tell me how your SS is not a Commodore and is not a G8 GT.


It isn't, it is a G8 GXP.

But that is also like saying a C5 and a C7 Corvette are basically the same car...

OK, back to your regularly scheduled TDI talk.


----------



## silverxt (Feb 25, 2006)

Atl-Atl said:


> Please tell me how your SS is not a Commodore and is not a G8 GT.


Never said it wasn't a Commodore. 

I asked you to tell me which parts on my car are Pontiac parts. You incorrectly said all of them.

None of them are Pontiac parts, they are all Holden or Chevy parts. Pontiac hasn't existed since 2010.

Are you dense?


----------



## Atl-Atl (Jun 7, 2006)

automobiliben said:


> It isn't, it is a G8 GXP.
> 
> But that is also like saying a C5 and a C7 Corvette are basically the same car...
> 
> OK, back to your regularly scheduled TDI talk.


GT, GXP, whatever trim you want to choose, you know what Im talking about.




silverxt said:


> Never said it wasn't a Commodore.
> 
> I asked you to tell me which parts on my car are Pontiac parts. You incorrectly said all of them.
> 
> ...


Am I dense? Your SS is a Zeta platform car, just like the commodore, just like the G8. Just because they slapped some new parts on and threw some new tech at it does not make it any less Zeta. Its built on the same chassis with some updates. I guarantee it has a Pontiac logo somewhere on it. You can call me dense all you want and act like your SS is all new and fancy and not a Pontiac but in the end its Chevy's way of getting rid of surplus Zeta platform chassis. Sorry you cant handle the truth.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Atl-Atl said:


> GT, GXP, whatever trim you want to choose, you know what Im talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, I don't know what you are talking about because obviously you don't know what you are talking about...

The Zeta Platform was developed by Holden! Nothing to do with Pontiac, besides the fact that the G8 wore a Pontiac badge.

The G8/VE is a Zeta Platform car, the SS/VF is a Zeta II Platform car. But you are obviously too dense to do any research.

Keep it up though!


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

Sump said:


> Not scouring paperwork why people would drop out. If you know the answer and took the time to reply, why the attitude? Someone **** in your lunchbox?


Large swaths of this thread are people asking questions that are clearly and concisely answered in the paperwork. 

I'm not talking about slogging through reams of paperwork filed in some dusty courtroom file room (although I have been the person to do exactly those sorts of searches in the past).

I'm talking about the answers that are in the booklet that was mailed to every single Dieselgate owner. 

In addition, the answers are readily available online at the link provided multiple times. 

That's why I gave a tiny amount of attitude to people who appear to be too lazy to open their booklet and spend about one minute to look up the answer.

If someone isn't party to the settlement and doesn't have the booklet, well, it's still available online to anyone who wants to read it.


----------



## silverxt (Feb 25, 2006)

Atl-Atl said:


> GT, GXP, whatever trim you want to choose, you know what Im talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, it seems you are quite dense.

You guarantee it has a Pontiac logo on it somewhere? You do know that Pontiac did not build the G8, right? And that Pontiac has been gone for 6 years, right?

Holden builds the Commodore and the SS on the Zeta II platform, and built the previous Commodore and the G8 on the original Zeta platform.

Try doing some research next time, maybe you won't come across as such a dumbass.


automobiliben said:


> No, I don't know what you are talking about because obviously you don't know what you are talking about...
> 
> The Zeta Platform was developed by Holden! Nothing to do with Pontiac, besides the fact that the G8 wore a Pontiac badge.
> 
> ...


This. The Zeta II is a lightened, stiffened, very heavily revised version of the Zeta platform which Pontiac had absolutely nothing to do with.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Atl-Atl said:


> GT, GXP, whatever trim you want to choose, you know what Im talking about.
> 
> Am I dense? Your SS is a Zeta platform car, just like the commodore, just like the G8. Just because they slapped some new parts on and threw some new tech at it does not make it any less Zeta. Its built on the same chassis with some updates. I guarantee it has a Pontiac logo somewhere on it. You can call me dense all you want and act like your SS is all new and fancy and not a Pontiac but in the end its Chevy's way of getting rid of surplus Zeta platform chassis. Sorry you cant handle the truth.


I'd bet $1 there isn't a Pontiac logo anywhere in the car, including stamped into parts. All Pontiac specific parts were there to differentiate it visually from the Commodore and subsequently deleted. The SS has updated components, skin and interior, completely negating the reason to re-use any parts common with the G8 exclusively. Are there some parts that are the same? Almost certainly, but I seriously doubt any carry a Pontiac logo.

As far as it using "surplus Zeta platform chassis", that's not how manufacturing works. Surplus plant capacity? Sure. That's exactly it. How is that bad?


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Atl-Atl said:


> GT, GXP, whatever trim you want to choose, you know what Im talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're cranking the moron up to 11 now, aren't you?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

NATORabbit said:


> You're cranking the moron up to 11 now, aren't you?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Better question is; Who in this thread gives a FLYING F about a GM product that is made for Chevrolet in Australia? This is a thread about 500,000 VW vehicles that don't meet emissions standard. So why don't these two take it to PMs.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

spockcat said:


> Better question is; Who in this thread gives a FLYING F about a GM product that is made for Chevrolet in Australia? This is a thread about 500,000 VW vehicles that don't meet emissions standard. So why don't these two take it to PMs.


It is better than a TDI, so for comparisons sake :laugh:

But yeah, I have no idea how that rabbit hole started.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

spockcat said:


> Better question is; Who in this thread gives a FLYING F about a GM product that is made for Chevrolet in Australia? This is a thread about 500,000 VW vehicles that don't meet emissions standard. So why don't these two take it to PMs.


Someone had to say it. Unsubb'd this thread because of these keyboard warriors... I'll be over in the taco / off-road forums waiting for my check while my $22k paperweight collects pine needles and leaves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Agreed, let's get this thread back on track.

Anybody else get this long worded useless email? I think it says they received my documents and they are under review...the same thing the website has said since I uploaded them...lol


----------



## maydaymike (Dec 12, 2014)

automobiliben said:


> Agreed, let's get this thread back on track.
> 
> Anybody else get this long worded useless email? I think it says they received my documents and they are under review...the same thing the website has said since I uploaded them...lol



I got that one on 9/25, two days after submitting my forms online.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

gti_matt said:


> They're both consumer products.
> 
> One is offered with a fix or a full refund.
> 
> ...


I understand your frustration. But to anyone who is upset about the potential loss of a car you plan to keep for 10-15 years....

You planned to keep your car for 10-15 years. If you wish to do so, you can still do that. To me, your argument about the POTENTIAL LOSS is sorta null as the value of the car to YOU far outweighs the resale value in 10-15 years. In complete contrast, in 10-15 years, the TDI's could be a car that will be in high demand and you could get some serious coin for it. Again, pure speculation but something you have to consider. 

My bottom line, the value of the car is the value to you for driving it long term and putting thousands of miles on it. -not the resale value of the car in a decade. 

Either keep the car and drive it until your heart is content or take the buyout that VW is offering.


----------



## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

I highly recommend people take the buy back option while you can. Or else that thing will depreciate like a rock and you might be stuck with it. Also say some new law comes and you can't renew your tag or pass emissions. That would suck. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

I highly recommend people take the buy back option while you can. Or else that thing will depreciate like a rock and you might be stuck with it. Also say some new law comes and you can't renew your tag or pass emissions. That would suck. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

maydaymike said:


> I got that one on 9/25, two days after submitting my forms online.


VW or Audi? Mine is a A3...


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

OP checking back in, 397 pages later...

It will be very interesting to see how long VW takes to get to all of the buybacks in areas where there is a large number of TDI's. I'd rather not pay to re-reg our car (up in December), but it's not likely that the replacement for the TDI will be available by then anyway (Bolt).


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

Sucks that we have to wait another week. I was hoping to do the buyback by the end of the month but I have a strong feeling that won't be happening. Not even close. Sucks because I'm eyeballing a GTI that the dealer will probably sell before the courts remove their thumbs from their asses.
My documents are still "under review" on the site as well, but I imagine that won't get finished up until after the final approval


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Tonight is my 'lets talk TDI' dinner at my local VW dealership.

I will be sure to report what happens.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

TheRealCaptainSlow said:


> Sucks that we have to wait another week. I was hoping to do the buyback by the end of the month but I have a strong feeling that won't be happening. Not even close. Sucks because I'm eyeballing a GTI that the dealer will probably sell before the courts remove their thumbs from their asses.
> My documents are still "under review" on the site as well, but I imagine that won't get finished up until after the final approval


My sense from listening to the judge was that he is going to approve the settlement and that VW was going to have to enact the settlement provisions immediately. During the arguments of the objectors, he probed some of the objections but he gave them consideration. He recognizes all of he moving parts that are in play to get this global settlement together. I don't think he'll mess with the settlement agreement at all.


----------



## maydaymike (Dec 12, 2014)

automobiliben said:


> VW or Audi? Mine is a A3...


VW. 2015 Passat. 

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

tomski12 said:


> I don't think he'll mess with the settlement agreement at all.


He won't, because he can't. The judges role in this is either approve, or not approve. He alone can't add/remove/change the agreement as it is. He could reject it and send the parties back to hash out changes, and even give insight as to the changes that he would want to see, but it's not solely up to him. 

As in, he can't go and say - 'If you have actual mileage from September 2015 documented, from an oil change or other service, you must use that' OR 'Instead of NADA value, we are going to use MSRP'... 

If he rejects, it's up to the lawyers to make changes and resubmit.


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

Just got this email:



[B said:


> [email protected][/B]]We have reviewed the documents you submitted as part of your claim with reference number XXXXXXXX. Currently, your document package does not include all of the information that is necessary to determine whether you are eligible to participate in the VW/Audi Diesel Emissions Settlement Program.
> 
> Please click here to visit the Online Claims Portal where you will find information about what additional documents and/or information are required and instructions on what steps you should take to complete your document package.
> 
> ...


Da fuq? I uploaded all of my documents weeks ago. So I log back into the claims portal, and it says my driver's license submission isn't complete. It says to resubmit the document or call the claims number or click the "click to chat" button. There is no click to chat button, so I call the claims number, my hold time is expected to be 2 hours. 

Then I went back and took another look at the photo of my driver's license that I uploaded. There is a reflection/glare in the photo just over the last digit of the year of the expiration date on my license, though all other information is visible. :banghead: So I uploaded a new photo. I hope this doesn't put me at the back of the line.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

GTI 20v said:


> Just got this email:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

Here's what Judge Breyer said in the hearing yesterday.

The Court is strongly inclined to approve the settlement. However, I want to consider the objections further to determine whether the Court should recommend any modification. There is an urgency, as I've expressed, to bring this matter to a conclusion. Cars are on the road, out of compliance with environmental regulations. And it is imperative that this matter be addressed immediately. Therefore, I will issue my Order on or before next Tuesday, October 25th. If I approve the proposed settlement, then the settlement should be implemented forthwith. What that means is that consumers should avail themselves of the terms of the settlement immediately. Saying that, however -- and recognizing that no matter how perfect a settlement may be, this particular settlement presents interesting logistical considerations. It's massive. And it depends on the smooth operation of the systems that had been employed by the parties in order to achieve a satisfactory So, while I don't anticipate any problems, and while I've received assurances that the processes are in place to effectuate the settlement, I want the consumers to exercise something which the Court generally hasn't been known to exercise, which is called "patience." If you have a problem with it, exercise some patience. We hope to resolve the problem immediately. You will be able to check on the progress of this matter. And I want to assure the consumers that the Court will retain its jurisdiction, in order to make sure that the settlement is properly and expeditiously implemented. So be assured that whatever the resolution of the case is by next Tuesday, this particular matter -- the Court is not absenting itself from the process. To the contrary, I will be very interested in making sure that this settlement is implemented expeditiously. I would encourage consumers to either -- well, to go to several websites in which the Court's Orders will be posted upon release of those Orders. They are, of course, the Court's website; but perhaps more helpful there is a website called VWcourtsettlement.com. And the Order will be posted on that website. And consumers are encouraged to go to that website in order to implement the settlement process, and receive the appropriate compensation.

I'm also going to direct the Plaintiffs' Steering Committee to file an application for their fees and costs, once the settlement -- assuming that the settlement will be approved. There will then be a hearing on the fee application, which will be set and noticed and placed on the Court's website.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

GTI 20v said:


> Just got this email:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I got the same email, just checked and all of my documents say "Complete". No clue what in the world that email meant...


----------



## Charles Devine (Aug 22, 2007)

automobiliben said:


> I got the same email, just checked and all of my documents say "Complete". No clue what in the world that email meant...


I haven't gotten that email and I did mine what seems like forever ago now... my documents are still pending too, I was hoping to get this loan off my record before buying a house in January. Here is to hoping mine processes quickly :beer:

-Charles


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

My documents are still being reviewed. It's been 11 days since I've uploaded them. I'm so ready for this crap to be over with since we're still adding miles on the car.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

SixpackMk3 said:


> My documents are still being reviewed. It's been 11 days since I've uploaded them. I'm so ready for this crap to be over with since we're still adding miles on the car.


I uploaded mine about a month ago I think, and it still says pending. However, they do now have a "Download" button which shows digital copies of the docs I uploaded.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Mine all say "Status: Document Complete"


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

AJB said:


> Mine all say "Status: Document Complete"


Jealous.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AJB said:


> Mine all say "Status: Document Complete"





NATORabbit said:


> Jealous.


It also says:



> We have received all your documents and are reviewing them to ensure that we have the correct documents and the necessary information to determine your eligibility. You can see the status of our review of each document below.
> 
> We have reviewed all of your documents. Currently, your application contains all the necessary documentation to determine your eligibility. We are now determining your eligibility and will inform you whether you are eligible to participate in the Settlement Claims Program and, if applicable, will provide you with a final offer, within ten business days.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

aj4066 said:


> Speak of the devil. I received this on Friday:
> 
> To our valued guests,
> 
> ...


Bouncing off of this...I attended this dinner party last night. I anticipated an open house, come and go type event but was surprised when I got there to find a presentation/dinner type event. There were several VW reps (along side the dealership personnel) and a VW rep gave the presentation. It was very professional and very well put together. They emptied the parking lot directly in front of the dealer and also emptied out the showroom to host the event. They catered finger foods from a local high-end restaurant and also offered beer, wine and soft drinks. 

They presented no real information that isn't present in this thread. He did clarify that you will NOT be able to just walk into the dealership and say today is the day I want to return my VW, here are the keys, cut me a check. The buyback will be processed through a VW rep, not the dealership and must be scheduled. It is the responsibility of the VW rep to process the buyback and the responsibility of the dealership to get you in a new vehicle. If you wish to not get a vehicle from that dealer or dealer group, you can simply walk in, process the buyback via the VW rep and walk out. There was no mention if they are cutting checks on the spot or if they will be processed through a time table. 

They spoke as if a fix will be happening. (I think most in this thread are very skeptical of that)

They mentioned that there is discussion that upon return of the TDI, the condition will be factored in to the buyback amount. They squashed that and said that if you drive the TDI in the parking lot, you will get max value for the car. No questions asked. 

They mentioned that VW is trying to make this as seamless as possible but they also need to be very organized when processing the buyback. -note the mandated appointment. If you do not have access to the website to set your appointment, dealerships are to have stations in place for customers to make an appointment. Everything up to the date you meet with the VW rep will be processed through the website. 

When will this all begin...he said that the appointments will open up likely the day the Judge drops the gavel, which we all know will be no later than next Tuesday the 25th. 

Overall, a very nice presentation. I estimate about 150- people were there. After the presentation, they invited everyone to a drink and walk the lot to look at cars, no test drives of course. It was sorta fun to walk around the lot with a beer in hand. :beer:


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

spockcat said:


> It also says:


Yeah I don't think it matter much realy. Some of you guys said it gave you a date, mine didn't give me that option.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Another question reagaridn new inventory.... 

Do you think VW is planing stocking their dealers with more vehicle than normal? I mean I did a quick search of my local dealer and well, they have nothing in stock that I would even remotely be interested in.


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> Bouncing off of this...I attended this dinner party last night. I anticipated an open house, come and go type event but was surprised when I got there to find a presentation/dinner type event. There were several VW reps (along side the dealership personnel) and a VW rep gave the presentation. It was very professional and very well put together. They emptied the parking lot directly in front of the dealer and also emptied out the showroom to host the event. They catered finger foods from a local high-end restaurant and also offered beer, wine and soft drinks.
> 
> They presented no real information that isn't present in this thread. He did clarify that you will NOT be able to just walk into the dealership and say today is the day I want to return my VW, here are the keys, cut me a check. The buyback will be processed through a VW rep, not the dealership and must be scheduled. It is the responsibility of the VW rep to process the buyback and the responsibility of the dealership to get you in a new vehicle. If you wish to not get a vehicle from that dealer or dealer group, you can simply walk in, process the buyback via the VW rep and walk out. There was no mention if they are cutting checks on the spot or if they will be processed through a time table.
> 
> ...


Nice writeup. :thumbup: Any word on incentives on new VWs for TDI buyback customers?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AJB said:


> Another question reagaridn new inventory....
> 
> Do you think VW is planing stocking their dealers with more vehicle than normal? I mean I did a quick search of my local dealer and well, they have nothing in stock that I would even remotely be interested in.


Do you think VW has 100,000-200,000-300,000 cars just sitting around at various ports waiting to be trucked to the 600+ VW and the 285 Audi dealers? Seems like it would be a lot of cars. Of course on the flip side, they would probably rather have full transporters rather than empty ones driving to the dealerships to pick up all the buybacks.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

GTI 20v said:


> Nice writeup. :thumbup: Any word on incentives on new VWs for TDI buyback customers?


I was thinking about this as well. Since nothing specific to TDI customers has yet been communicated, I'm thinking nothing is coming, though I sure would like one. I would bet they will sweeten the loyalty incentive a bit starting Nov. 1. Currently that's at $750 for Audi and I think $0 for VW.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

spockcat said:


> Do you think VW has 100,000-200,000-300,000 cars just sitting around at various ports waiting to be trucked to the 600+ VW and the 285 Audi dealers? Seems like it would be a lot of cars. Of course on the flip side, they would probably rather have full transporters rather than empty ones driving to the dealerships to pick up all the buybacks.


No, I wasn't thinking to that extent. But really if the dealers don't have any cars the customer wants, the customer (me) is not going to wait around a day or a month; I need a car. I'm going to walk.

Speaking of new 2017 Golf Sport wagons. Looks you can't get Leatherette and heated seat with the 5-speed manual. And if I give up the leatherette, I still can't get just heated seats with the stick. Ugh.


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

AJB said:


> No, I wasn't thinking to that extent. But really if the dealers don't have any cars the customer wants, the customer (me) is not going to wait around a day or a month; I need a car. I'm going to walk.
> 
> Speaking of new 2017 Golf Sport wagons. Looks you can't get Leatherette and heated seat with the 5-speed manual. And if I give up the leatherette, I still can't get just heated seats with the stick. Ugh.


Could you contact the dealer ahead of your buyback date and request a vehicle that is on a lot at another dealer? It would give them time to transport the vehicle and they might be more willing to do it if it would guarantee keeping a customer.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

NeverEnoughCars said:


> Could you contact the dealer ahead of your buyback date and request a vehicle that is on a lot at another dealer? It would give them time to transport the vehicle and they might be more willing to do it if it would guarantee keeping a customer.


That might work, assuming the selling dealer will sell them the car. If supplies do become short, dealers may be less willing to trade.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

GTI 20v said:


> Nice writeup. :thumbup: Any word on incentives on new VWs for TDI buyback customers?


Thanks! I forgot to mention that in my write up. 

The VW rep said that he was not aware of any incentives to TDI owners from VW at this time, outside of standard VW loyalty cash, which I wasn't aware that there was loyalty cash available. The dealer then stood up and said he also was not aware of any incentives targeted to TDI owners and they have not received any POP (window clings, banners, etc) material from VW. -this indicates there is nothing in place. 

The dealer rep also said that for any TDI owner, they are offering any NEW car within their dealer group (Gurley Leep) at invoice price, plus any manufacture incentives. TDI owners would have preference on vehicle ordering and allocation. 

Please understand that there are two parts to the buyback. -the VW rep and the dealer rep. They are separate. The dealer rep's (the salesman) position is to get you into a new vehicle. They have nothing to do with the buyback. The buyback is completely handled by the VW rep which works out of the VW dealership. -I hope that doesn't sound too complicated.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> ...


A TDI Chevy Citation? :laugh::laugh: look for in amungst the TDI's


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

aj4066 said:


> Bouncing off of this...I attended this dinner party last night. I anticipated an open house, come and go type event but was surprised when I got there to find a presentation/dinner type event. There were several VW reps (along side the dealership personnel) and a VW rep gave the presentation. It was very professional and very well put together. They emptied the parking lot directly in front of the dealer and also emptied out the showroom to host the event. They catered finger foods from a local high-end restaurant and also offered beer, wine and soft drinks.
> 
> They presented no real information that isn't present in this thread. He did clarify that you will NOT be able to just walk into the dealership and say today is the day I want to return my VW, here are the keys, cut me a check. The buyback will be processed through a VW rep, not the dealership and must be scheduled. It is the responsibility of the VW rep to process the buyback and the responsibility of the dealership to get you in a new vehicle. If you wish to not get a vehicle from that dealer or dealer group, you can simply walk in, process the buyback via the VW rep and walk out. There was no mention if they are cutting checks on the spot or if they will be processed through a time table.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the report!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## ktm8806 (Feb 14, 2005)

I called the support number yesterday. Few points I was told below by the rep. 

1. First the rep. mentioned they expect approval on or before the 25th(as we knew).

2. The rep. stated that following approval they will then begin reviewing documents. I'm not sure how anyone would have something other then "Status: Document received and under review"

3. When I asked how quick this will go down and next steps the rep. had the following to say.

a. Once documents are approved you will receive your official offer through the website.

b. This will need to be notarized and they have 20 days to have it processed. 

c. Following processing of above you will then be able to schedule on the website. 

d. The rep. said this will be a slow and long process and informed me not to expect to have my car turned in prior to December or even January!

All in all I'm not shocked but certainly frustrated if the above all plays our as the rep. stated. Not at all making me want to stay with the brand at this point, but cannot find something non VW/Audi the wife likes, currently either an SEL Tiguan or Q3. Any other similar suggestions?


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I promise you, we ARE reviewing the docs uploaded!!!


----------



## ktm8806 (Feb 14, 2005)

.yuk. said:


> I promise you, we ARE reviewing the docs uploaded!!!


From a source you have? This rep. was adamant that they will not begin reviewing until judge's approval...


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

ktm8806 said:


> From a source you have? This rep. was adamant that they will not begin reviewing until judge's approval...


They are definitely reviewing the documents. My documents were all approved except my driver's license which had a glare in the photo obscuring the expiry date. 

When I spoke to a rep they said that we could have actual buybacks starting by late November.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

ktm8806 said:


> From a source you have? This rep. was adamant that they will not begin reviewing until judge's approval...


I am the source. We are doing the claim reviews. :laugh:


----------



## ktm8806 (Feb 14, 2005)

GTI 20v said:


> They are definitely reviewing the documents. My documents were all approved except my driver's license which had a glare in the photo obscuring the expiry date.
> 
> When I spoke to a rep they said that we could have actual buybacks starting by late November.


That's good to hear, I'm surprised that the reps. aren't aligned in their stories though.


----------



## ktm8806 (Feb 14, 2005)

.yuk. said:


> I am the source. We are doing the claim reviews. :laugh:


Would be great if the reps. were sharing accurate details then.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

ktm8806 said:


> Would be great if the reps. were sharing accurate details then.


I don't know if you've ever worked in a large org that has a customer support team, but getting 1st level phone reps all on the same page and/or relaying accurate info to customers is almost impossible. I'm not at all surprised that you got what appears to be inaccurate info.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

ktm8806 said:


> From a source you have? This rep. was adamant that they will not begin reviewing until judge's approval...


Mine have already been reviewed.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

ktm8806 said:


> Would be great if the reps. were sharing accurate details then.


consistency would be good.

but to backup yuk... when i called in a couple of weeks back now, the rep told me that once i got my docs uploaded they would be put in the to be reviewed queue immediately, not waiting for the courts.

the thing with the docs, is that there is really nothing about them that would require that the court approve the deal for the doc validation to happen.
and since people are posting in here that they are being notified of doc validation being completed.

seems to me that this item should no longer be in doubt.

even if you filed early. lots of the 500k affected fielded asap as well. 
be patient. 
your time will come.  :laugh:


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> even if you filed early. lots of the 500k affected fielded asap as well.
> be patient.
> your time will come.  :laugh:


I also asked the rep if I was near the front of "the line" since I had submitted my docs on the early side. She said the "line" hadn't formed yet and was based on how quickly you respond to their buyback offer.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

GTI 20v said:


> I also asked the rep if I was near the front of "the line" since I had submitted my docs on the early side. She said the "line" hadn't formed yet and was based on how quickly you respond to their buyback offer.


That to me sounds like the answer to a different question though.

My rep told me that my doc's would be verified asap. Then after the court approval, a claim rep would contact me with an offer and to set a turn in date. Maybe THAT is what your rep was talking to, since that line has yet to form.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

I had an interesting interaction with the claim website. I chose several of the document submission options just to see what would happen next. I clicked on mail.

I figured I could go back to change the settings later.

NOPE.

I'm stuck mailing everything in.

By the way I didn't write down the address. No way to get the address either as you can't go back a step. WAT?

Chatted up a rep. Twice. One said that they could change or reset the option to email but it would happen the next day (this sounded fishy).

Another rep said that the choice to mail could not be changed to email. At least he gave me the address and fax number. 

In both cases the reps were definitely NOT MAKING IT EASY to work with them. 

If their level of concern is any indication of the quality of the claim process...

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

*I just got an email saying all my documents were approved. Went online to double check and yes they were. *









*E-Mail reads: *



> We have reviewed the documents you submitted as part of your claim with reference number XXXXXXXX. Currently, your application contains all of the necessary documentation to determine your eligibility. We are now determining your eligibility and will inform you whether you are eligible to participate in the VW/Audi Diesel Emissions Settlement Program after the Settlement Program becomes effective.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This email is being sent from an account that does not receive replies. For questions or other issues related to the VW/Audi Diesel Emissions Settlement, please visit www.VWCourtSettlement.com or contact the Settlement Support Team at 1-844-98-CLAIM.
> To ensure delivery to your inbox, add [email protected] to your address book.


Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

Speaking as someone who foolishly already bought a new car before turning the TDI in, I wish there was some way I could turn the keys over now, not necessarily to get the buyback money right away, but just so I can stop making the monthly payments on it.


----------



## svb (Mar 27, 2009)

Skizzle1111 said:


> Speaking as someone who foolishly already bought a new car before turning the TDI in, I wish there was some way I could turn the keys over now, not necessarily to get the buyback money right away, but just so I can stop making the monthly payments on it.


There may be lenders who will do a refinance for you where the first payment is pushed 90 days out or something like that. Ordinarily not advisable but might be worth it in your case.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Having to get something notarized..... :what::what:

..... that's new and another delay.


----------



## euro16v (Dec 12, 1999)

http://www.volvocars.com/us/shopping-tools/explore/events/vw-offer

Ha, let the incentives begin!


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> Having to get something notarized..... :what::what:
> 
> ..... that's new and another delay.


Fyi.
If you bank with a credit union many of them will notarize docs for you for free.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

euro16v said:


> http://www.volvocars.com/us/shopping-tools/explore/events/vw-offer


LOL enjoy the luxury of a cleaner ride :laugh: gold jerry! :thumbup::laugh:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Can the Touareg 3.0 TDIs be far behind?

*Audi to buy back 25,000 Q7 diesel SUVs in U.S., report says*



> FRANKFURT -- Volkswagen's premium division Audi plans to buy back 25,000 Q7 diesel engine SUVs in the U.S. to compensate owners whose cars do not meet exhaust emission standards, German weekly Der Spiegel reported today.
> 
> Audi representatives are in talks with U.S. authorities about fixing 85,000 cars that failed exhaust tests. Litigation has been ongoing in U.S. District Court in San Francisco before Judge Charles Breyer.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

euro16v said:


> http://www.volvocars.com/us/shopping-tools/explore/events/vw-offer
> 
> Ha, let the incentives begin!


$1700 maintenance plan is the incentive? That's it? Probably worth $500.


----------



## euro16v (Dec 12, 1999)

spockcat said:


> $1700 maintenance plan is the incentive? That's it? Probably worth $500.


Yeah I agree, not much of an incentive. But wife and I test drove a V60 this summer and loved it as a possible replacement for our Jetta. Was funny to see someone openly target TDI buyback customers.


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

euro16v said:


> Yeah I agree, not much of an incentive. But wife and I test drove a V60 this summer and loved it as a possible replacement for our Jetta. Was funny to see someone openly target TDI buyback customers.


My brother has a V60, and really likes it.


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

I am still at the stage of not having heard back from VW, what-so-ever. I submitted the first batch of information *online* immediately when receiving a written letter from VW months ago, and then crickets, since.

As such, I originally thought I was one of the first persons to get compensation, but now I have no idea where I stand. ???


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

euro16v said:


> http://www.volvocars.com/us/shopping-tools/explore/events/vw-offer
> 
> Ha, let the incentives begin!


Ha!

Funny I was thinking about a Volvo as a replacement. 
Love the S60, but don't want a car payment. Luckily they depreciate as quickly as VWs do, so a few YO S60 is w/in the price of my buyback amount. 
But looking to pay off the GTI, and maybe other debt. So it might be a S40 or V50. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

:wave:


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

feels_road said:


> I am still at the stage of not having heard back from VW, what-so-ever. I submitted the first batch of information *online* immediately when receiving a written letter from VW months ago, and then crickets, since.
> 
> As such, I originally thought I was one of the first persons to get compensation, but now I have no idea where I stand. ???


 Your online account will say where you stand, does it say documents complete? But no one knows where they stand until the judge gives final approval. 

Let's assume only 2% of owners responded "immediately" (as did I and I'm sure a lot of people on this forum) that's still 10,000 cases.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Sump said:


> Your online account will say where you stand, does it say documents complete? But no one knows where they stand until the judge gives final approval.
> 
> Let's assume only 2% of owners responded "immediately" (as did I and I'm sure a lot of people on this forum) that's still 10,000 cases.


Yeah, Im not entire sure I would be upset at this point. If you were first to send in doc's, I would be upset if you haven't been contacted within 4-6 months of the judge dropping the gavel. 

-at this point, the entire case is still technically under review. 

Be patient opcorn:


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Checked this morning and see I am at "Documents Complete"! Woohoo! Let's get this thing off my driveway!


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

Submitted my documents on Sep. 21. Still "under review."


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

After submitting both sets of documents for the two cars, the set for my wife's 2009 is 'complete' but I haven't heard back yet on the 2015. Of course, I put in for a September 2018 buyback date for the Golf, so they don't need to be in any hurry. (I wonder if I can postpone that a bit to November/December 2018?)


----------



## Charles Devine (Aug 22, 2007)

Documents finally processed! Maybe I missed it but has anyone been contacted about appointments yet? Just made a payment today, hopefully my last one on this car!.

-Charles


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/v...y-back-30-v6-tdi-engined-vehicles-112360.html

Buried in my feed 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## slvrsrfr (May 11, 2016)

Charles Devine said:


> Documents finally processed! Maybe I missed it but has anyone been contacted about appointments yet? Just made a payment today, hopefully my last one on this car!.
> 
> -Charles


I received this message from the claims department:



> We have reviewed the documents you submitted as part of your claim with reference number 160811393. Currently, your application contains all of the necessary documentation to determine your eligibility. We are now determining your eligibility and will inform you whether you are eligible to participate in the VW/Audi Diesel Emissions Settlement Program after the Settlement Program becomes effective.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Did any of you get this? It's not saying the documents/claim was approved, like I've seen elsewhere. I thought the original answers I filled out were designed to determine my eligibility in the first place.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Charles Devine said:


> Documents finally processed! Maybe I missed it but has anyone been contacted about appointments yet? Just made a payment today, hopefully my last one on this car!.
> 
> -Charles


Appointments will be opened up once the judge drops the gavel.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> Appointments will be opened up once the judge drops the gavel.


Which should be by COB tomorrow 10/25


----------



## slvrsrfr (May 11, 2016)

slvrsrfr said:


> I received this message from the claims department:
> 
> 
> 
> Did any of you get this? It's not saying the documents/claim was approved, like I've seen elsewhere. I thought the original answers I filled out were designed to determine my eligibility in the first place.



Never mind, I see that this is the same message others got. Somehow I missed it earlier.


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

aj4066 said:


> I understand your frustration. But to anyone who is upset about the potential loss of a car you plan to keep for 10-15 years....
> 
> You planned to keep your car for 10-15 years. If you wish to do so, you can still do that. To me, your argument about the POTENTIAL LOSS is sorta null as the value of the car to YOU far outweighs the resale value in 10-15 years. In complete contrast, in 10-15 years, the TDI's could be a car that will be in high demand and you could get some serious coin for it. Again, pure speculation but something you have to consider.
> 
> ...


You are correct about the value in 10-15 years, as by then all of this may be long forgotten or inconsequential.

But in the interim between now and then, how will the fix pan out for performance and fuel economy (bear in mind I'm talking a no-urea 2011 TDI here, one of the harder ones to fix)? How will the fix pan out in terms of reliability? Am I going to be purchasing a new NOx trap for hundreds or thousands of dollars every 30K miles or what? Are the revised parts and systems tested or are they slapped together to pass muster with the State of California and the US EPA just for immediate testing but over time are they less reliable components? There isn't even a fix yet. It is not reasonable for VW to ask us to hedge our bets on a fix when there isn't one yet at all.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> Which should be by COB tomorrow 10/25


The gavel drop, yes. Will they instantly turn on appointments at the crack of the gavel? Probably not... but should soon after. Car dealerships like to do things month by month and for that reason, I expect Nov1 will be the grand kick off. :thumbup:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

gti_matt said:


> You are correct about the value in 10-15 years, as by then all of this may be long forgotten or inconsequential.
> 
> But in the interim between now and then, how will the fix pan out for performance and fuel economy (bear in mind I'm talking a no-urea 2011 TDI here, one of the harder ones to fix)? How will the fix pan out in terms of reliability? Am I going to be purchasing a new NOx trap for hundreds or thousands of dollars every 30K miles or what? Are the revised parts and systems tested or are they slapped together to pass muster with the State of California and the US EPA just for immediate testing but over time are they less reliable components? There isn't even a fix yet. It is not reasonable for VW to ask us to hedge our bets on a fix when there isn't one yet at all.


You don't have to do the fix for 2 years after the judge makes his ruling, if you wish to keep the car. If tomorrow he drops his gavel and next April he approves a fix, you can wait another year to either decide to accept the fix based on feedback or sell the car back to VW. 

If you are that worried about it, let the situation play out for another year or so and make your decision then.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

...


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

Submitted my documents an hour ago, I'm sure I'll hear from VWoA in a month or two at this rate.


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

Got this chestnut from the dealer i selected to turn my buyback into....



> To all our current TDI customers;
> 
> We wanted to thank you for your patience during this process. We understand it has been a long road and at times seems never ending. Fortunately, we are almost at the finish line.
> 
> ...


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

aj4066 said:


> The gavel drop, yes. Will they instantly turn on appointments at the crack of the gavel? Probably not... but should soon after. Car dealerships like to do things month by month and for that reason, I expect Nov1 will be the grand kick off. :thumbup:


ok. but the buybacks are not being run by the dealer. they are just being done AT the dealerships. i dont think the dealer network has any say at all as to when these buybacks can/will start.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

dunhamjr said:


> ok. but the buybacks are not being run by the dealer. they are just being done AT the dealerships. i dont think the dealer network has any say at all as to when these buybacks can/will start.


Correct, the dealer has nothing to do with the buyback, only getting you in a new vehicle if you desire to get in a vehicle with that dealer or dealer group. VW can start the buyback once the judge approves the proposal, which we all know will be by the end of the day tomorrow. 

That said, you will schedule your buyback with VW which will take place at a VW dealership.

*edit, just re-read what you said. Automakers in general like to do things based on the first of the month. Though VW is handling the buyback side, of course they want you in another VW and will have to work with the dealer to get this done.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Good article:

http://www.motortrend.com/news/dieselgate-investigator-speaks-out-on-volkswagen-emissions/


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

dunhamjr said:


> ok. but the buybacks are not being run by the dealer. they are just being done AT the dealerships. i dont think the dealer network has any say at all as to when these buybacks can/will start.


which is way it seems deceptive of the dealer to send out information about buyback appointments when the court specifically indicated that they have to be two VERY separate transactions.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

VeeDubMan54 said:


> which is way it seems deceptive of the dealer to send out information about buyback appointments when the court specifically indicated that they have to be two VERY separate transactions.


Yeah my local dealer told me that VW sent out a notice to handle them separately and not make the consumer feel 'forced' to get into another VW. How true that is, not sure. However because of that (and the finance guy saying what VW gave TDI owners was enough) we bought the Alltrack at a different dealer. 

Oh and my docs (uploaded a few weeks ago) just checked and all say "Complete" :thumbup:

Edit:



aj4066 said:


> Good article:
> 
> http://www.motortrend.com/news/dieselgate-investigator-speaks-out-on-volkswagen-emissions/


That is a good article. A customer of mine that manufactures engines for the trucking industry (VW also bought into them recently) cranks out 'old school' diesel engines every day. Since the design pre-dates the current tests they are exempt from certain emissions regulations so they keep making the same engines via loopholes in the emissions code whereas the little 2.0TDI we have is supposedly an environment killer. Even though these engines would of passed the previous standards as stated in the article. :screwy:


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Sump said:


> Yeah my local dealer told me that VW sent out a notice to handle them separately and not make the *consumer feel 'forced' to get into another VW. How true that is, not sure*. However because of that (and the finance guy saying what VW gave TDI owners was enough) we bought the Alltrack at a different dealer.
> 
> Oh and my docs (uploaded a few weeks ago) just checked and all say "Complete" :thumbup:



I guess we'll see how VW is willing to deal when the incentives are announced.


----------



## Charles Devine (Aug 22, 2007)

Good information all, thanks for the reassurance that I didn't miss anything.

-Charles


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

Got this from my chosen dealer:



> To our valued customers:
> 
> My name is Michael McDonald and as the President of our family owned dealership, I would like to send a heartfelt thank you for choosing us for your automotive needs. As a dealer for over 55 years, we are very disappointed in Volkswagen AG for creating this issue. We believe that their settlement is fair and a sincere effort to regain your faith as a consumer. It is our understanding that the court’s final decision on the TDI settlement is within just a few days now. It is our desire to help you navigate through this process, to ensure that all of your questions and concerns are answered, and to minimize any inconveniences that you may incur. Please take time to read this email as we are providing important information regarding your vehicle and the process to follow.
> 
> ...


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

My local dealer said they have 700 people on a TDI buyback list.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Well...today is the day. :laugh:opcorn:


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

aj4066 said:


> Well...today is the day. :laugh:opcorn:


Until the judge figures he needs 4 more days to decide, which will hit a weekend day, then we will have to wait until Monday...Then he will get stuck in Monday traffic, and it will be delayed again...


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

I would like to think, we've ALL (judge included) waiting long enough/heard enough to get this thing in motion and get #DasPolluter off my driveway.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> I would like to think, we've ALL (judge included) waiting long enough/heard enough to get this thing in motion and get #DasPolluter off my driveway.


What's the rush?

I'm going to turn mine in September 2018 so I can have the pleasure of using the car for 44 months and only spend $1000 or so.


----------



## Geesixty (Feb 8, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> What's the rush?
> 
> I'm going to turn mine in September 2018 so I can have the pleasure of using the car for 44 months and only spend $1000 or so.


Yup... me too! Hopefully get some sweet incentives for a leftover 2018 GTI or something.


----------



## Ryukein (Dec 10, 2006)

https://twitter.com/AP/status/790934841818804226



> BREAKING: Judge approves Volkswagen's $15B emissions settlement; VW to start buying back cars in Nov. .


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

FINALLY! Now go ahead and approve my docs you sonsofbitches!


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

T5 Dave said:


> What's the rush?
> 
> I'm going to turn mine in September 2018 so I can have the pleasure of using the car for 44 months and only spend $1000 or so.


srsly...:banghead: every time someone says this... i want 'force' the wife to keep the TDI for a couple more years. ugh.


----------



## shawshank redemption (Jan 29, 2009)

T5 Dave said:


> What's the rush?
> 
> I'm going to turn mine in September 2018 so I can have the pleasure of using the car for 44 months and only spend $1000 or so.


Hopefully the car doesnt get totalled


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

Ugh, I hate that I could have had a free car out of all this.

You lucky bastards.


----------



## Atl-Atl (Jun 7, 2006)

Sounds like I need to get my hands on a GSW S 4Motion in the next week.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

shawshank redemption said:


> Hopefully the car doesnt get totalled


You could probably get GAP insurance or use 'declared value' to cover the difference. :beer:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN12P22F




> By David Shepardson | WASHINGTON
> 
> A U.S. federal judge on Tuesday approved Volkswagen AG's (VOWG_p.DE) record-setting $14.7 billion settlement with regulators and owners of 475,000 polluting diesel vehicles, and the German automaker said it would begin buying back the vehicles in mid-November.
> 
> ...


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

shawshank redemption said:


> Hopefully the car doesnt get totalled


Doesn't matter. From the settlement documents:



> *11. Can I receive benefits if my car was totaled after September 18, 2015?*
> If you owned an Eligible Vehicle that was functioning and operable as of September 18, 2015, but was
> subsequently totaled (and the title was transferred to an insurance company), you will be eligible for benefits
> under the Class Action Settlement as described in this notice at Question 19. There is one exception: if your
> ...


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Air and water do mix said:


> You could probably get GAP insurance or use 'declared value' to cover the difference. :beer:


NOPE - I've tried, not worth the risk for us on a paid off car that I paid roughly $1K more than I am going to get from VW soon.

Bluebook if it were to get totaled would be roughly 50% of the amount from VW.

If the gap wasn't so WIDE, we might be willing to wait .... but since we are pasted the Sept date, safer for folks now. 

Things to consider, if you have a loan and it is totaled and VW hasn't given you $$ yet... you will still have to pay on said loan if over the BB amount AND no $$ from VW. could be days, weeks or months....


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

Glad the Court Settlement was approved. Still waiting on Document approval. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Air and water do mix said:


> You could probably get GAP insurance or use 'declared value' to cover the difference. :beer:


This has been beaten to death... very, very few insurers will add this unless it's a new vehicle or historical.

My opinion would be to make sure you have replacement value insurance, as then your insurer would buy you another TDI that you could submit fr the buyback instead....


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

E CODE said:


> This has been beaten to death... very, very few insurers will add this unless it's a new vehicle or historical.
> 
> My opinion would be to make sure you have replacement value insurance, as then your insurer would buy you another TDI that you could submit fr the buyback instead....


That gets super hairy then with previous owners of whatever TDI you get, there are provisions for vehicles totalled at Sept 18th but still we didn't want to deal with any of that if were to happen. Hence it's sitting the driveway rotting away until we can take it in.


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

Still wondering if there will be a fix at all.

If the turnout for buybacks are high enough I can see VW skipping the fix entirely as it wouldn't be financially smart to do so. Heck it may be cheaper to pay the penalty on how ever many remaining cars not turned in to get to the magic 85% number than to invest years of time and millions of dollars developing and testing a fix that may not even be approved by the EPA.

What happens to those of us that want to see what the fix is like and wait for a year and then suddenly realize that VW has met their goal and no fix is coming. I understand we can switch to the buyback, but after they hit 85% what's to stop VW from pulling the plug on the buybacks? Is there a clause in the agreement that EVERY member of the class gets some kind of compensation unless they opt out?

What happens in the situation I listed above? Anyone know??

I only bring this up because there is a great deal of talk about waiting until 2018 to turn in your car or get the fix. What will you do if halfway through 2017 they hit 85% and VW issues a press release stating that they hit the goal of 85% earlier than expected, the program was a great success and they are ending the program. What will you do?


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

gcodori said:


> Still wondering if there will be a fix at all.
> 
> If the turnout for buybacks are high enough I can see VW skipping the fix entirely as it wouldn't be financially smart to do so. Heck it may be cheaper to pay the penalty on how ever many remaining cars not turned in to get to the magic 85% number than to invest years of time and millions of dollars developing and testing a fix that may not even be approved by the EPA.
> 
> ...


conspiracy theory much?

the EPA won't let VW not attempt to find a fix. now that doesnt mean they WILL find a fix, but they will have to show some good faith toward getting one.
Also. the epa wont just let VW stop the buybacks at 85%.

think of the hellfire that would occur if the EPA allowed that and VW essentially stranded 75k-ish people?? 
you think VW killed their brand by lying the first time around... they might as well declare bankruptcy if they stopped the buybacks.
and if the EPA allowed it? do you really think anyone in that agency would weather the storm? i dont think so.


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

dunhamjr said:


> conspiracy theory much?
> 
> the EPA won't let VW not attempt to find a fix. now that doesnt mean they WILL find a fix, but they will have to show some good faith toward getting one.
> Also. the epa wont just let VW stop the buybacks at 85%.
> ...


Not a conspiracy - just a legit question. >>*What happens when VW hits 85%?*<<

Are you saying the EPA will force VW to create a fix in order to have 100% completion (minus the 3K or so who left the class action)? Even if 97% of the owners elect the buyback the EPA will make VW create a fix for the last 3%?

Will the EPA force them to develop and test the fix within the two years?

Is that in the agreement? 

Can the EPA hold VW to something that is NOT in the agreement?

I only ask this because I want to wait to see what the fix is. Many other people here have express that they will drive the TDI up to Sept 2018 on VWs dime. 

So you are saying that if VW hits over 85% they will just keep buying them back anyway? And keep doing so until Sept 2018?


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

gcodori said:


> Not a conspiracy - just a legit question. >>*What happens when VW hits 85%?*<<
> 
> Are you saying the EPA will force VW to create a fix in order to have 100% completion (minus the 3K or so who left the class action)? Even if 97% of the owners elect the buyback the EPA will make VW create a fix for the last 3%?
> 
> ...


I've only skimmed the order, however, my preliminary reading of the order provides that the ~$10 billion is the factor to buy back 100% of the affected cars. The affected owners have the option to take the buy back or the fix or the buyback if no fix is available. There is no option for VW to pull the plug.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Sump said:


> That gets super hairy then with previous owners of whatever TDI you get, there are provisions for vehicles totalled at Sept 18th but still we didn't want to deal with any of that if were to happen. Hence it's sitting the driveway rotting away until we can take it in.


Agreed... I have NO idea how insurance companies are going to find 'replacement vehicles' if this clause has to be used...


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

tomski12 said:


> I've only skimmed the order, however, my preliminary reading of the order provides that the ~$10 billion is the factor to buy back 100% of the affected cars. The affected owners have the option to take the buy back or the fix or the buyback if no fix is available. There is no option for VW to pull the plug.


So if there is no fix made available, they will have to buy back 100% of all the cars (unless you opt out of the money completely)?


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

T5 Dave said:


> What's the rush?
> 
> I'm going to turn mine in September 2018 so I can have the pleasure of using the car for 44 months and only spend $1000 or so.


My rush is avoiding service like a timing belt or God for bid anything breaking. I don't want to put anymore money into it. Not even an oil change 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

2ohgti said:


> My rush is avoiding service like a timing belt or God for bid anything breaking. I don't want to put anymore money into it. Not even an oil change
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Same here. My 10,000-mile oil change was due at 50,000. Coming up on 52,000 miles. Hell, not even planning on rotating the tires


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Mazda 3s said:


> Same here. My 10,000-mile oil change was due at 50,000. Coming up on 52,000 miles. Hell, not even planning on rotating the tires


I'm approaching timing belt mileage. Sure as hell not dumping over $1000 into it. Trying not to put too many miles on it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

2ohgti said:


> I'm approaching timing belt mileage. Sure as hell not dumping over $1000 into it. Trying not to put too many miles on it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, you do need to _drive_ it back on the lot when you turn it in. It's an interference engine, no?


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

Holy **** that was super quick!



> We have reviewed the documents you submitted as part of your claim with reference number xxxxxxxxx. Currently, your application contains all of the necessary documentation to determine your eligibility. We are now determining your eligibility and will inform you whether you are eligible to participate in the VW/Audi Diesel Emissions Settlement Program.


Submitted mine yesterday and didn't expect a response so soon.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

DUBPL8 said:


> Holy **** that was super quick!
> 
> 
> 
> Submitted mine yesterday and didn't expect a response so soon.


WTF? I submitted mine over a month ago.


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

Mazda 3s said:


> WTF? I submitted mine over a month ago.


Same here


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

Mazda 3s said:


> WTF? I submitted mine over a month ago.





Skizzle1111 said:


> Same here


Damn that seriously blows. I take it both of you are going to unload the car instantly? I'm not going to unload mine until late spring next year :wave:


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

DUBPL8 said:


> Damn that seriously blows. I take it both of you are going to unload the car instantly? I'm not going to unload mine until late spring next year :wave:


That is the same boiler plate message a lot of us have gotten, look back a couple pages. It doesn't really mean anything, just acknowledging receipt of documents.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Mazda 3s said:


> Same here. My 10,000-mile oil change was due at 50,000. Coming up on 52,000 miles. Hell, not even planning on rotating the tires


My car is currently running on low of washer fluid and diesel. It will be going back to the Dealer on fumes. In fact, I hope that once they confirm the Engine runs, it dies on the lot! 😂


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

automobiliben said:


> That is the same boiler plate message a lot of us have gotten, look back a couple pages. It doesn't really mean anything, just acknowledging receipt of documents.


Got it. Did you receive it in a timely period or no?


----------



## P-Body (Mar 18, 2007)

So can someone clear this up for me - if I had bought an affected vehicle the day before the stop sale/issue, VW will now buy back the vehicle for full value at the time when the issue came up PLUS extra money? And this whole time I've been driving the car?

People will be making money off this then?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

P-Body said:


> So can someone clear this up for me - if I had bought an affected vehicle the day before the stop sale/issue, VW will now buy back the vehicle for full value at the time when the issue came up PLUS extra money? And this whole time I've been driving the car?
> 
> People will be making money off this then?


Totally depends on what you paid if you "make" money or not.


----------



## P-Body (Mar 18, 2007)

spockcat said:


> Totally depends on what you paid if you "make" money or not.


At a bare minimum, assuming you paid sticker, you're being made whole, correct?

I'm trying to understand if VW got a good deal, a raw deal, or the right deal here.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

P-Body said:


> At a bare minimum, assuming you paid sticker, you're being made whole, correct?
> 
> I'm trying to understand if VW got a good deal, a raw deal, or the right deal here.


I think you need to look at a specific case/vehicle. If you are talking (sticker) MSRP, there could be options that are in addition that are not accounted for in the buyback. There is also tax, dealer and registration fees that would be on top of your MSRP. The buyback was based on the book value of the vehicle at the time this happened. That is usually lower than MSRP. And certainly lower than MSRP plus taxes, dealer and registration fees combined. However to offset that there is the additional ~$5k payment. So I think you would need to look at specific cases to see if someone who purchased a NEW VW the day before the S*** hit the fan has made out. 

Now if you were talking about a slightly used VW, then it is a bit more likely that given the purchase was made at a fair price close to book value, the new owner did OK in the settlement. 

One thing you can say is that everyone has driven their cars free of depreciation for the last 12+ months. So that is a benefit that owners have enjoyed.

EDIT: There is a contingency for 2015 vehicles according to the VW Claims website: 


> For 2015 vehicles, the same formula applies with a percentage of Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price (“MSRP”) used in lieu of the NADA Clean Trade In value because NADA values were not yet available for those vehicles.


So it is likely that owners of 2015 vehicles will do better than owners of 2014 and earlier vehicles.


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

spockcat said:


> One thing you can say is that everyone has driven their cars free of depreciation for the last 12+ months. So that is a benefit that owners have enjoyed.
> 
> EDIT: There is a contingency for 2015 vehicles according to the VW Claims website:
> 
> So it is likely that owners of 2015 vehicles will do better than owners of 2014 and earlier vehicles.


In my case, that is not true. For the 2015s, they calculated trade in value at .717 of MSRP. That means that in one year my car depreciated 29%, way above industry standard. 

But don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining....getting full purchase price back when accounting for restitution. That means I've been driving for free for a year and a half. I'm happy the settlement was approved. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

2ohgti said:


> I'm approaching timing belt mileage. Sure as hell not dumping over $1000 into it. Trying not to put too many miles on it.


Likewise!! Right now it's probably pissing off the neighbors in our building by taking a prime space right up front. I haven't moved it in 10 days and counting, the car now has a feed me light on to go with its CEL and low washer fluid lights, back to 15" steel wheels on tires that may or may not have enough tread to pass inspection, and with plates that expire at the end of the year. 

My dilemma is those plates. I've already acquired its replacement, stumbled across this at a Ford dealer and had a little fun playing hardball (and winning):










So, that's got a 20-day plate on it that expires on 10/31, my docs are still under review, but I did open the claim on Day One. I never got any notice to upload until a friend sent me a text on Thursday, so I'm probably screwed into a long wait... In the mean time I guess that means I'm going to be checking out registration options, because I think we all know that it's going to be a bit longer than originally expected to close these buybacks out.


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

P-Body said:


> At a bare minimum, assuming you paid sticker, you're being made whole, correct?
> 
> I'm trying to understand if VW got a good deal, a raw deal, or the right deal here.


I would lose $4k if I did the buy back. I've explained my situation before and won't go into it again. 

VW adjusted the gen2 owner amounts to push people to the fix (I guess VW thought the gen2 would be an easy fix since we have urea).

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

Sump said:


> That gets super hairy then with previous owners of whatever TDI you get, there are provisions for vehicles totalled at Sept 18th but still we didn't want to deal with any of that if were to happen. Hence it's sitting the driveway rotting away until we can take it in.


As T5 Dave wrote, it's moot, unless you're one of the unlucky people whose car was totaled before September 16, 2016.

If it's totaled from now until the end of the program in 2018, you're still eligible for the buyback.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...vehicles&p=100740809&viewfull=1#post100740809

So, I'm driving mine essentially with no depreciation. 

Now, others have made the legitimate point about what happens if something big goes wrong, what about maintenance costs, etc.

I have an extended warranty, so I don't have to worry about anything other than wear-and-tear items.

I still have one free oil change/services left, so I'm covered under that. 

I probably won't hit 40K before the turn-in, so I don't have to worry about the expensive DSG service. If I do get close, I may bite the bullet and have it performed, or I may just adjust the timing of the turn-in. We'll see.


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

biturbowagon said:


> "If it's totaled from now until the end of the program in 2018, you're still eligible for the buyback.
> 
> http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...vehicles&p=100740809&viewfull=1#post100740809"
> 
> ...


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

jen_madcity said:


> biturbowagon said:
> 
> 
> > "If it's totaled from now until the end of the program in 2018, you're still eligible for the buyback.
> ...


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

I thought that the VW Settlement phone dial-in used to have a "callback" feature to use instead of sitting on hold all day. Now I can't find it


----------



## SipSlow (Jun 19, 2013)

Any idea when the restitution money is coming? I sold my car in 2015, but I want that $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

My sister called me. last night. She has a 2011 JSW, is located in California, and is looking forward to getting out of it (it has been the least reliable vehicle she has ever had). The battery in it is the original one and she has had to get a jump twice in the past 2 weeks as it is crapping out. She seems to think that her buyback is happening on 01 Nov. and she definitely does NOT want to spend $70- $100 on a battery for a car that is going to be crushed/ whatever.

I told her to throw a cheap VatoZone battery in there as there is no way that VW is going to be that efficient in the buybacks and that it would probably take a while. Was I wrong about that? I am assuming that CARB cars are going to be bought back sooner than the rest but not that quickly. Correct?


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

Local news said next week. Take that with a grain of salt. 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

MCTB said:


> My sister called me. last night. She has a 2011 JSW, is located in California, and is looking forward to getting out of it (it has been the least reliable vehicle she has ever had). The battery in it is the original one and she has had to get a jump twice in the past 2 weeks as it is crapping out. She seems to think that her buyback is happening on 01 Nov. and she definitely does NOT want to spend $70- $100 on a battery for a car that is going to be crushed/ whatever.
> 
> I told her to throw a cheap VatoZone battery in there as there is no way that VW is going to be that efficient in the buybacks and that it would probably take a while. Was I wrong about that? I am assuming that CARB cars are going to be bought back sooner than the rest but not that quickly. Correct?


You gave her absolutely the correct advice.

She ever have ECM problems? Those were tons of fun.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

NATORabbit said:


> You gave her absolutely the correct advice.
> 
> She ever have ECM problems? Those were tons of fun.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No ECM issues but DSG, electrical, and I think sunroof leaks. The car is a rolling bad luck machine. She swears it is cursed. 


I told her to pick up a $40 battery, have them install it for free, and spend as little money on it as possible.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

Green Hare said:


> Likewise!! Right now it's probably pissing off the neighbors in our building by taking a prime space right up front. I haven't moved it in 10 days and counting, the car now has a feed me light on to go with its CEL and low washer fluid lights, back to 15" steel wheels on tires that may or may not have enough tread to pass inspection, and with plates that expire at the end of the year.
> 
> My dilemma is those plates. I've already acquired its replacement, stumbled across this at a Ford dealer and had a little fun playing hardball (and winning):
> 
> ...


Nice GLI :thumbup: We transferred our plates to the Alltrack (IL got rid of all the custom series plates so didn't want to lose it which is an IL Youth Golf Foundation plate) also the registration expires 10/31/16 on the TDI. The dealer is only a few miles from us where we are turning in. So I'll be slapping a random plate on it and activating the insurance again (It's comprehensive only as it sits in driveway) to get it to the dealer. Currently searching for some steelies so I can keep the Portos for the GTI.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Ours has been ok, only issues were intake manifold, door seal leak, and HPFP (under warranty). 
It had 80k on it when that stuff happened. Also replaced battery which is expected given the age.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

jen_madcity said:


> biturbowagon said:
> 
> 
> > "If it's totaled from now until the end of the program in 2018, you're still eligible for the buyback.
> ...


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

The only way to make out with a collision would be if you got into a minor-ish collision, where the vehicle was still able to be driven. Say, $5,000 in damage. Get the money from insurance, don't make the repair, and then do the buyback. Profit!


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

VT1.8T said:


> The only way to make out with a collision would be if you got into a minor-ish collision, where the vehicle was still able to be driven. Say, $5,000 in damage. Get the money from insurance, don't make the repair, and then do the buyback. Profit!


Or if it was totalled the insurance owes you buyback minus restitution because you can point to the VW document that determines value of the vehicle as fixed and not depreciating until December 31, 2018. Obviously you'll have to fight the insurance on this, but I've done so in the past (don't accept their offer until it's what you want). If it stays on their books for long enough, and if you remain stubborn and keep on producing your documentation proving your point, they'll give in.

Hence, even if it does get totalled, you should get the full buyback amount.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

T5 Dave said:


> Or if it was totalled the insurance owes you buyback minus restitution because you can point to the VW document that determines value of the vehicle as fixed and not depreciating until December 31, 2018. Obviously you'll have to fight the insurance on this, but I've done so in the past (don't accept their offer until it's what you want). If it stays on their books for long enough, and if you remain stubborn and keep on producing your documentation proving your point, they'll give in.
> 
> Hence, even if it does get totalled, you should get the full buyback amount.


And they also don't want to continue footing the bill for daily storage of the vehicle.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Mazda 3s said:


> I thought that the VW Settlement phone dial-in used to have a "callback" feature to use instead of sitting on hold all day. Now I can't find it


when i called in and the wait was 57 minutes the phone system just offered me a callback... i didnt have to find anything.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

VT1.8T said:


> The only way to make out with a collision would be if you got into a minor-ish collision, where the vehicle was still able to be driven. Say, $5,000 in damage. Get the money from insurance, don't make the repair, and then do the buyback. Profit!


or...

since condition is not going to be considered.
if it gets totaled. buy the car back from insurance and do just enough repairs to get the car legal to drive. no paint matching, new headlights, fancy isht. legal to drive.

then you get the ins payout, minus a couple $K to fix
AND
the VW buyback + restitution


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

dunhamjr said:


> or...
> 
> since condition is not going to be considered.
> if it gets totaled. buy the car back from insurance and do just enough repairs to get the car legal to drive. no paint matching, new headlights, fancy isht. legal to drive.
> ...


I would suggest you re-read the terms as that would have a "Salvage title" and would no longer be eligible.


----------



## Nicefeet (Dec 29, 2009)

So are they going to be crushed or are the engines going to be filled with glass and run until they pop? Maybe both. I guess in about December YouTube will start having snuff videos


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> I would suggest you re-read the terms as that would have a "Salvage title" and would no longer be eligible.


Are you sure? I thought I had read that a number of ways and as long as the title wasnt salvaged at specific times and didn't change ownership you were OK.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

Sump said:


> Nice GLI :thumbup: We transferred our plates to the Alltrack (IL got rid of all the custom series plates so didn't want to lose it which is an IL Youth Golf Foundation plate) also the registration expires 10/31/16 on the TDI. The dealer is only a few miles from us where we are turning in. So I'll be slapping a random plate on it and activating the insurance again (It's comprehensive only as it sits in driveway) to get it to the dealer. Currently searching for some steelies so I can keep the Portos for the GTI.


Yeah, I'm going to the town hall on Friday to discuss options. I may just get a generic plate for the GLI while the tags on the TDI are valid until the end of the year. Whatever, my problem...  

Sent out a few feeler emails to find a GTI for my husband to replace his JSW, how are you liking the Alltrack? I saw one in the dealer the other day but it was missing a clutch pedal...


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

dunhamjr said:


> Are you sure? I thought I had read that a number of ways and as long as the title wasnt salvaged at specific times and didn't change ownership you were OK.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


Sort of....

Who is excluded from participating in the Class Action Settlement?

The following entities and individuals are excluded from the class: Owners who acquired ownership of their Volkswagen or Audi 2.0-liter TDI vehicles after September 18, 2015, and transfer title before participating in the Settlements; Lessees of a Volkswagen or Audi 2.0-liter TDI vehicle that is leased from a leasing company other than Volkswagen Credit, Inc. or Audi Financial Services; Owners whose Volkswagen or Audi 2.0-liter TDI vehicle (1) could not be driven under the power of its own 2.0-liter TDI engine on June 28, 2016, or (2) *had a branded title of assembled, dismantled, flood, junk, rebuilt, reconstructed, or salvage on September 18, 2015, and was acquired from a junkyard or salvage yard after September 18, 2015; Owners who sell or otherwise transfer ownership of their Volkswagen or Audi 2.0-liter TDI vehicle between June 28, 2016 and September 16, 2016*; Volkswagen’s officers, directors and employees and participants in Volkswagen’s internal lease program; Volkswagen’s affiliates and affiliates’ officers, directors and employees; their distributors and distributors’ officers, directors and employees; and Volkswagen dealers and Volkswagen dealers’ officers and directors;…

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/?s=salvage


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

Green Hare said:


> Yeah, I'm going to the town hall on Friday to discuss options. I may just get a generic plate for the GLI while the tags on the TDI are valid until the end of the year. Whatever, my problem...
> 
> Sent out a few feeler emails to find a GTI for my husband to replace his JSW, how are you liking the Alltrack? I saw one in the dealer the other day but it was missing a clutch pedal...


We like it. It's my wifes car and she's only learned stick enough as a safety thing if something happens when we're driving one of my cars. 

I have a mini review of it on this page in a few posts: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...AllTrack&p=100373481&viewfull=1#post100373481

As her car it's perfect. I'd ideally want a 2.0T in there as 170HP/200TQ would be better at 200HP/240TQ. We were going to jump ship until VW finally brought a small AWD wagon here to the states. She drove the Subarus and thought they were OK but as someone who's not a car person at all she asked why they felt 'weird' to drive and noted the interior felt cheaper. Which I think was mostly due to how the CVT feels/drives. We drove the allroad too but didn't see 15K more of a car before any options.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> Sort of....
> 
> Who is excluded from participating in the Class Action Settlement?
> 
> ...


ok so, yeah that is what read and checked off.

We bought the car new, so the "purchased after Sept 18 2015" date is moot.
The car also is/was not salvaged at anytime before, on, or between the "June 28 2016 and Sept 16 2016" dates. Hence they should be moot as well.
AKA, me and my car are part of the class.

Here is why I read it this way:
I owned the car prior to the exclusion dates and we are now clear of the later dates exclusion dates.
My car was not salvaged and was fully functional before, on, and during all class exclusion periods.

If my car is totaled NOW while waiting on buyback, and gains a salvaged title POST all of the above referenced dates I should think we are ok so long as I keep the car and get it driveable again.

It is unreasonable of VW to expect owners will just park their cars while waiting on buyback, and sounds like a huge gap if 'life happening' NOW AFTER the exclusion periods and AFTER the court has approved the deal, would cause me to no longer be a member of the settlement class.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

SipSlow said:


> Any idea when the restitution money is coming? I sold my car in 2015, but I want that $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


Are you actually eligible if you sold the car in 2015? Especially if you sold or transferred ownership of the vehicle on or before September 18, 2015.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

spockcat said:


> Are you actually eligible if you sold the car in 2015? Especially if you sold or transferred ownership of the vehicle on or before September 18, 2015.


If you sold the car prior to sept 18th, you get nothing.


Believe me, I checked.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

Question. For the Financial Consent, what are you guys sending in? Just a copy of your payoff from your bank/credit union with your bank account info? I've even went to the dealer and showed them what I'm sending, they even sent it again from the dealer, but for some reason they will not accept that paper online. I'm to the point where I'm just going to wait a few more days until they have the person that is going to do the appointments for all this and let him figure it out. Which is what I was told at the dealer, if the paperwork wasn't approved again.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

SixpackMk3 said:


> Question. For the Financial Consent, what are you guys sending in? Just a copy of your payoff from your bank/credit union with your bank account info? I've even went to the dealer and showed them what I'm sending, they even sent it again from the dealer, but for some reason they will not accept that paper online. I'm to the point where I'm just going to wait a few more days until they have the person that is going to do the appointments for all this and let him figure it out. Which is what I was told at the dealer, if the paperwork wasn't approved again.


There's a form you need to fill out and send in. On the VW Settlement site, scroll down to Court Documents, Forms & Notices. Under Forms, fill out the Consent to Release Loan Details and scan/upload.


----------



## SipSlow (Jun 19, 2013)

spockcat said:


> Are you actually eligible if you sold the car in 2015? Especially if you sold or transferred ownership of the vehicle on or before September 18, 2015.


I sold the car in October 2015. Actually bought a GTI with the $2k owner loyalty bonus they were running at the time. I signed up on the claims site and VW said I'm good. I just need to get around to uploading my documents for verification. But in every news release, I see no mention of the restitution payments for people who sold the car in the eligible period.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

bdc12 said:


> There's a form you need to fill out and send in. On the VW Settlement site, scroll down to Court Documents, Forms & Notices. Under Forms, fill out the Consent to Release Loan Details and scan/upload.


Ahhh, my bad then I guess hahaha. Then again, why didn't the guy at the dealer not tell me about this. I just scanned a copy of my payoff and sent them that. Now I will just wait until they decline it again and send them this paper filled out and that should do it I guess. :thumbup: Thanks!


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Nicefeet said:


> So are they going to be crushed or are the engines going to be filled with glass and run until they pop? Maybe both. I guess in about December YouTube will start having snuff videos


Cars will sit until they deem they will not have a fix. 

Once you turn the car off in the parking lot, it will not get restarted again until it gets loaded onto the trailer to go to the holding lot. -at least thats what the VW rep indicated in the meeting I attended. Seriously, they are treating this like birds are falling from the sky because of the VW diesel.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

They're selling them overseas and to South America where there are no emissions. VW will make their money back either way. They're not stupid.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

SixpackMk3 said:


> Ahhh, my bad then I guess hahaha. Then again, why didn't the guy at the dealer not tell me about this. I just scanned a copy of my payoff and sent them that. Now I will just wait until they decline it again and send them this paper filled out and that should do it I guess. :thumbup: Thanks!


It wasn't clearly spelled out. The only way I happen to know is when I first signed up I had an outstanding balance on my loan. I then figured paying off the loan would make this process easier so I paid my loan and got my title in the mail. 

Under that consent doc section, I uploaded a copy of the clear title. The document got rejected by VW so I waited on hold for 2 hours last week to talk to someone. The lady that answered was very helpful and said because I originally said I had a loan I'd need to fill out the form and showed me where to find it. She said they'd check with the bank and get a loan balance of $0 back. The site only takes a single attachment so I made a 3 page PDF of the form, the title release letter from the lender, and the title. It's still sitting as Under Review, but hopefully that is sufficient.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

bdc12 said:


> It wasn't clearly spelled out. The only way I happen to know is when I first signed up I had an outstanding balance on my loan. I then figured paying off the loan would make this process easier so I paid my loan and got my title in the mail.
> 
> Under that consent doc section, I uploaded a copy of the clear title. The document got rejected by VW so I waited on hold for 2 hours last week to talk to someone. The lady that answered was very helpful and said because I originally said I had a loan I'd need to fill out the form and showed me where to find it. She said they'd check with the bank and get a loan balance of $0 back. The site only takes a single attachment so I made a 3 page PDF of the form, the title release letter from the lender, and the title. It's still sitting as Under Review, but hopefully that is sufficient.


Do you still have to fill out the loan paperwork if you financed through Volkswagen? Seems like they should have access to all the pertinent details of your loan.


----------



## Nicefeet (Dec 29, 2009)

aj4066 said:


> Cars will sit until they deem they will not have a fix.
> 
> Once you turn the car off in the parking lot, it will not get restarted again until it gets loaded onto the trailer to go to the holding lot. -at least thats what the VW rep indicated in the meeting I attended. Seriously, they are treating this like birds are falling from the sky because of the VW diesel.


I just don't see how VW is going to hold cars in various states of condition only to spend more money trying to repair them for resell. I also thought there was a clause where they could not be exported.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

SixpackMk3 said:


> They're selling them overseas and to South America where there are no emissions. VW will make their money back either way. They're not stupid.


But also don't they recycle cars?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LieutenantShinySides (May 4, 2007)

My claim has been rejected twice and for the same reason. My wife and I are both listed on the registration that I submitted along with both of our drivers licenses. I filled out the online claim with myself as the primary registered owner and my wife as the co-registrant, however, my rejection notification indicates I have submitted a registration with two registrants but only listed one on the claim form. Grrrrrr. There are directions on how to get back to that part of the claim form but for whatever reason, I am not able to get there to add her. So I broke down and called the claims department. Hold time was estimated to be over two hours and I ended up being on hold for over 3hrs but was greeted by a nice gentleman who understood my issue and re-opened the portal for me to add my wife as the co-registrant, again. I did so and re-submitted my online claim only to receive an email this morning for the exact same reason. Been on hold for an hour and twenty minutes....


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

LieutenantShinySides said:


> Been on hold for an hour and twenty minutes....


Just do the call back option. Worked fine for me.


----------



## LieutenantShinySides (May 4, 2007)

Unfortunately, they are not giving me that option.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

Mazda 3s said:


> Do you still have to fill out the loan paperwork if you financed through Volkswagen? Seems like they should have access to all the pertinent details of your loan.


My guess is yes. Mine was through Chase, but I assume you need to fill out the form regardless of who the lender is. VCI is a different company than VW, though is wholly owned. The form is actually giving 'Ankura Consulting Group' permission to access your account details. It's a privacy thing so they'll want your explicit permission before accessing your account info.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

*Eligibility to participate*

Has anyone received a confirmation that they're eligible to participate in the settlement program? I received this about 2 weeks ago but haven't received the final approval. "We have reviewed all of your documents. Currently, your application contains all the necessary documentation to determine your eligibility. We are now determining your eligibility and will inform you whether you are eligible to participate in the Settlement Claims Program and, if applicable, will provide you with a final offer, within ten business days."


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

We're all just waiting on VW to start processing the claims and making final offers.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

bdc12 said:


> My guess is yes. Mine was through Chase, but I assume you need to fill out the form regardless of who the lender is. VCI is a different company than VW, though is wholly owned. The form is actually giving 'Ankura Consulting Group' permission to access your account details. It's a privacy thing so they'll want your explicit permission before accessing your account info.


After being on hold for three hours this morning, they told me that I don't have to send in the form since I financed through VW.


----------



## b0mb3r (Nov 9, 2006)

I submitted over 2 months ago, and still "under review"


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

b0mb3r said:


> I submitted over 2 months ago, and still "under review"


According to the rep I spoke to, they now have 10 business days from the time the judge approved the settlement to get your docs approved/rejected. Then they're sent to an auditor who has another 10 days for final approval.


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

I submitted mine over a month ago. I'm currently on the phone to find out why they haven't been approved. Been on hold for over 3 hours. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

b0mb3r said:


> I submitted over 2 months ago, and still "under review"


Does your car not operate? Whats the issue?


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

caj1 said:


> Does your car not operate? Whats the issue?


Lol, this guy


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

Ross1013 said:


> Lol, this guy


Seriously, what's the rush? Essentially free transportation until you settle.. I'd hang onto the car as long as possible


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

I can't believe it, but I have to agree with caj on this one. If I sill had mine, I'd keep it right till the end for my free 6-7 years of a new car.

Too bad it was a total piece of ****!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

NATORabbit said:


> Too bad it was a total piece of ****!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I got the under 2 years until your next VW


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

caj1 said:


> I got the under 2 years until your next VW


Not this time.

I'm totally stupid enough to buy another one, but not that quickly.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

NATORabbit said:


> Not this time.
> 
> I'm totally stupid enough to buy another one, but not that quickly.


Well since you apparently have nothing but new cars in your stable, I'll give it 3 years..


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

caj1 said:


> Well since you apparently have nothing but new cars in your stable, I'll give it 3 years..


Says the guy that has two 2016s?

And fixed for you.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

NATORabbit said:


> Says the guy that has two 2016s?
> 
> And fixed for you.


Oh these will be gone within 2 years..owning depreciating assets suck!

and thanks.. :beer:


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

caj1 said:


> Oh these will be gone within 2 years..owning depreciating assets suck!
> 
> and thanks.. :beer:


So why are you leasing two golfs?


(I mean, since there's no other good conversation going on in this thread, amirite?)


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

NATORabbit said:


> So why are you leasing two golfs?
> 
> 
> (I mean, since there's no other good conversation going on in this thread, amirite?)


I love being the anti-TCL.. also doesn't hurt working for VWoA


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

caj1 said:


> I love being the anti-TCL.. also doesn't hurt working for VWoA


Nobody out-anti TCLs me.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

NATORabbit said:


> Nobody out-anti TCLs me.


I still love your Malibu


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

caj1 said:


> I still love your Malibu


Oh I thought I had a cruze.


....because they got diesels


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

SixpackMk3 said:


> They're selling them overseas and to South America where there are no emissions. VW will make their money back either way. They're not stupid.


Actually, no. That is blocked by the consent decree (unless the emissions systems are fixed).


----------



## Nicefeet (Dec 29, 2009)

biturbowagon said:


> Actually, no. That is blocked by the consent decree (unless the emissions systems are fixed).


I'm betting they get cubed. It would make no sense to bring a bunch of unknown used cars into compliance. How many people in this thread are forgoing maintenance right now?


----------



## ktm8806 (Feb 14, 2005)

LieutenantShinySides said:


> My claim has been rejected twice and for the same reason. My wife and I are both listed on the registration that I submitted along with both of our drivers licenses. I filled out the online claim with myself as the primary registered owner and my wife as the co-registrant, however, my rejection notification indicates I have submitted a registration with two registrants but only listed one on the claim form. Grrrrrr. There are directions on how to get back to that part of the claim form but for whatever reason, I am not able to get there to add her. So I broke down and called the claims department. Hold time was estimated to be over two hours and I ended up being on hold for over 3hrs but was greeted by a nice gentleman who understood my issue and re-opened the portal for me to add my wife as the co-registrant, again. I did so and re-submitted my online claim only to receive an email this morning for the exact same reason. Been on hold for an hour and twenty minutes....


Have you had any luck with this? I've had the same issue twice now and am trying to find time to wait on hold. I wish the call back option was still being offered.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Mazda 3s said:


> According to the rep I spoke to, they now have 10 business days from the time the judge approved the settlement to get your docs approved/rejected. Then they're sent to an auditor who has another 10 days for final approval.


But this doesn't affect people who's are under review right? Also what about those who's documents weren't accepted? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LieutenantShinySides (May 4, 2007)

ktm8806 said:


> Have you had any luck with this? I've had the same issue twice now and am trying to find time to wait on hold. I wish the call back option was still being offered.


I did finally get a representative after ~3hrs. He told me that the co-registrant section of my online claim was still blank. Had to take a few deep breaths when he told me that, it's not his fault but this process is getting ridiculous. 

I explained to him that just two days prior I had spoken to a representative who told me the same thing, opened the online portal up for me so I could once again, add my wife to the co-registrant box and re-submit the form. He was not sure why her name was still not showing up and offered to open that claim portal, again. 

I told him I wanted a confirmation that my wife's name was in the co-registrant field after I submitted it. He put me on hold for about 5 minutes, came back on and let me know he left detailed notes about what was happening with my claim submission and ensured me that it should go through this time. So now I wait, it only took a few days to get my last rejection email so hopefully I will know soon. He suggested that if it was rejected again that I would need to print out the 27 page claim form and mail it in with all of my documents. Ugh...


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

2ohgti said:


> But this doesn't affect people who's are under review right? Also what about those who's documents weren't accepted?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If your docs are under review (no matter when you submitted them) they have ten business days to approve/deny. So if you submitted before the ruling, the 10 biz days starts from the time the ruling was made (10/25). If you are submitting today, for example, your 10 days starts from the time they receive them. 

Once the docs are approved (initial approval) they have 10 biz day for the auditor to send your offer. 

That's what I was told at least. As for those that had their docs rejected, I have no clue.


----------



## Unilateral Phase Detractor (Aug 23, 2005)

I can't believe VW is being a tool about getting folks approved for the settlement. It's like they're begging people to never buy another VW. I keep thinking this can't get worse for VW and it continues to do so. :screwy:


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Add to the fact that some dealers are insisting vehicles like the Alltrack don't have any incentives from VW currently and would be purchased at MSRP and yes the spiral just keeps going down for them.


----------



## b0mb3r (Nov 9, 2006)

caj1 said:


> Seriously, what's the rush? Essentially free transportation until you settle.. I'd hang onto the car as long as possible


oh really? so I put a crapload of miles on it, until it's settled? Just curious.


----------



## slvrsrfr (May 11, 2016)

tomski12 said:


> Has anyone received a confirmation that they're eligible to participate in the settlement program? I received this about 2 weeks ago but haven't received the final approval. "We have reviewed all of your documents. Currently, your application contains all the necessary documentation to determine your eligibility. We are now determining your eligibility and will inform you whether you are eligible to participate in the Settlement Claims Program and, if applicable, will provide you with a final offer, within ten business days."


I got this message on Monday this week, but I haven't received an offer.


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

b0mb3r said:


> oh really? so I put a crapload of miles on it, until it's settled? Just curious.


Financially, VW charges for miles at a rate far below nominal. It's likely to be the least depreciation you have available. Plus the cost per mile to run a TDI is pretty low.

I don't need to drive a lot, so I actually get a slightly bigger buyback if I wait. But the cars I might want are not yet available, so I'm thinking wait for the fix. Also, I live where TDI resale value is much higher than average, so I might come out ahead getting the car fixed and selling it privately or trading it in.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Question, don't we lose money per year and for the added miles if we wait until the last possible minute to sell back the car to VW?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Blonde Guy said:


> Financially, VW charges for miles at a rate far below nominal. It's likely to be the least depreciation you have available. Plus the cost per mile to run a TDI is pretty low.
> 
> I don't need to drive a lot, so I actually get a slightly bigger buyback if I wait. But the cars I might want are not yet available, so I'm thinking wait for the fix. Also, I live where TDI resale value is much higher than average, so I might come out ahead getting the car fixed and selling it privately or trading it in.


IF a fix is ever approved for the 2011 that is approved in CA. And if there isn't one, eventually CA will probably ban the vehicles from re-registration. Thus your private resale value in CA could be $0.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

AJB said:


> Question, don't we lose money per year and for the added miles if we wait until the last possible minute to sell back the car to VW?


Only if you do more than 1024 miles per month. If you add 1024 miles per month for the next 18 months you get the same amount.

My wife drives more than the allotted amount so I'd like to get ours turned in before the next mileage tier as we lose about $400-450 per tier


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Only if you do more than 1024 miles per month. If you add 1024 miles per month for the next 18 months you get the same amount.
> 
> My wife drives more than the allotted amount so I'd like to get ours turned in before the next mileage tier as we lose about $400-450 per tier


Thanks. Yeah, my wife drives about 20k per year. Bought ours in Nov. of 2011. Car has just under 100k on it now.

Plus it has the check engine light on and the DPF light had gone on and off once or twice. But is currently off.


----------



## BudPytko (Apr 22, 2012)

Nicefeet said:


> I'm betting they get cubed. It would make no sense to bring a bunch of unknown used cars into compliance. *How many people in this thread are forgoing maintenance right now?*


I've even forgone *DRIVING* it!


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

AJB said:


> Thanks. Yeah, my wife drives about 20k per year. Bought ours in Nov. of 2011. Car has just under 100k on it now.
> 
> Plus it has the check engine light on and the DPF light had gone on and off once or twice. But is currently off.


Oh yeah you're about double then - We are getting complimentary 30k service tomorrow and hopefully rid of it by the next tier - Although I am NOT happy with dealers right now basically not willing to do anything for us outside of whatever "incentives" VW is offering that month - we are already looking into BMW CPO's as they seem to be willing to deal - the 3-4 dealers I've spoken to so far only will give $500 off an Alltrack and that was a reluctant offer, they are telling me they are selling at MSRP like its a friggin Golf R or something


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Only if you do more than 1024 miles per month. If you add 1024 miles per month for the next 18 months you get the same amount.
> 
> My wife drives more than the allotted amount so I'd like to get ours turned in before the next mileage tier as we lose about $400-450 per tier


1024 miles per month is 34 miles a day or 17 miles round trip. If you are driving this amount or less, you are probably doing more damage to the TDI than doing it good. Diesels don't like short trips. Enjoy that clogged DPF.

Many people drive more than that. I drive 66 miles a day Mon-Fri, which works out to 1,320 mile per month not including any weekend trips. So, yeah, I lose money every day I drive it...

Not all of us have a five mile commute to work. Heck, It's 4.5 miles just to go from my house to the freeway onramp to start my commute.

About 30% of all commuters drive more than 17 miles.
http://www.statisticbrain.com/commute-statistics/

So it's not like everyone is cool with the "drive it until 2018" knowing that every mile sees more of the value removed.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

gcodori said:


> 1024 miles per month is 34 miles a day or 17 miles round trip. If you are driving this amount or less, you are probably doing more damage to the TDI than doing it good. Diesels don't like short trips. Enjoy that clogged DPF.
> 
> Many people drive more than that. I drive 66 miles a day Mon-Fri, which works out to 1,320 mile per month not including any weekend trips. So, yeah, I lose money every day I drive it...
> 
> ...


I'm in agreement with you 100% - I'm not cool with drive it until 2018 because she actually drives the car as intended - I always get a kick out of 1k miles a month, that's barely any driving for most of the people in the US - I could count on my hands how many friends lease cars with 12k miles a year and are over by 10k or more when turning in (and starting the cycle of negative leases but I digress)

We just hit the 30k tier so we are turning it in before 35k


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

We'll just be driving ours until we can lease/purchase something to replace it. We're so far under our allowed mileage it's silly (car was purchased when the primary driver had a much longer commute than now, so it's way under typical mileage at nearly 5 years old).


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

spockcat said:


> IF a fix is ever approved for the 2011 that is approved in CA. And if there isn't one, eventually CA will probably ban the vehicles from re-registration. Thus your private resale value in CA could be $0.


Well, that's right of course. If CARB doesn't approve the fix, then I'll take the buyout, because my resale value won't be good.

If there is a fix, I'll check. When new, the 2011 Golf TDI seemed like a good value compared to used 2006 Golf TDI. If that ratio comes out the same for the fixed 2011, I might make thousands more than VW is offering for the buyback. Diesels are really popular here.

I just wonder if VW will flood the market with cars they bought back, then fixed. This is all assuming the fix is approved.


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Oh yeah you're about double then - We are getting complimentary 30k service tomorrow and hopefully rid of it by the next tier - Although I am NOT happy with dealers right now basically not willing to do anything for us outside of whatever "incentives" VW is offering that month - we are already looking into BMW CPO's as they seem to be willing to deal - the 3-4 dealers I've spoken to so far only will give $500 off an Alltrack and that was a reluctant offer, they are telling me they are selling at MSRP like its a friggin Golf R or something


I'm sure all the smart people who paid over MSRP for their golf Rs because they just had to have it right away helped bolster the ego of some of the dealerships, thinking the new alltrack will be high enough demand to be stubborn for the first while. Still sucks though, and yeah it annoys me a little too.


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

LieutenantShinySides said:


> I did finally get a representative after ~3hrs. He told me that the co-registrant section of my online claim was still blank. Had to take a few deep breaths when he told me that, it's not his fault but this process is getting ridiculous.
> 
> I explained to him that just two days prior I had spoken to a representative who told me the same thing, opened the online portal up for me so I could once again, add my wife to the co-registrant box and re-submit the form. He was not sure why her name was still not showing up and offered to open that claim portal, again.
> 
> I told him I wanted a confirmation that my wife's name was in the co-registrant field after I submitted it. He put me on hold for about 5 minutes, came back on and let me know he left detailed notes about what was happening with my claim submission and ensured me that it should go through this time. So now I wait, it only took a few days to get my last rejection email so hopefully I will know soon. He suggested that if it was rejected again that I would need to print out the 27 page claim form and mail it in with all of my documents. Ugh...


Well I don't get why they need all this BS uploaded or faxed in online. I had fun watermarking void on all mine and using my global entry card as ID. It's legit federal photo ID and has nothing but my name and a really crappy picture.


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

AJB said:


> Question, don't we lose money per year and for the added miles if we wait until the last possible minute to sell back the car to VW?


Read the materials. The answer is in them.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Only way VW can keep me as a customer would be to offer a huge discount off new VWs for us tdi owners.

Maybe they should do a 20% sale like GM for us.


----------



## fknlo (Jun 30, 2004)

AJB said:


> Only way VW can keep me as a customer would be to offer a huge discount off new VWs for us tdi owners.
> 
> Maybe they should do a 20% sale like GM for us.


You can find pretty insane deals on GTI's right now. I found a '17 Sport 6MT at a price that works for me. Only problem is the incentives end today. Who knows what the price will be tomorrow. I couldn't get there today because it's halfway across the country and I work. Told them I could be there tomorrow and I'll put money down. Doesn't matter, the deal has to be done today. I'll find out Tuesday what the new incentives are and if they aren't pretty much exactly the same then VW lost out on a great chance at keeping me as a customer. Oh well.


----------



## SoLo2pointO (Jul 12, 2001)

Does anyone know how checks will be issued? Example - I will be owed a little over $6k once my loan has been paid off. If I don't want to buy a VW and head to a different dealer/private party, how/when can I expect that overage check?


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

VW will pay off your lien and either issue you a check or Direct Deposit for the difference. It's all in the formal package you received in the mail. :thumbup:


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

fknlo said:


> You can find pretty insane deals on GTI's right now. I found a '17 Sport 6MT at a price that works for me. Only problem is the incentives end today. Who knows what the price will be tomorrow. I couldn't get there today because it's halfway across the country and I work. Told them I could be there tomorrow and I'll put money down. Doesn't matter, the deal has to be done today. I'll find out Tuesday what the new incentives are and if they aren't pretty much exactly the same then VW lost out on a great chance at keeping me as a customer. Oh well.


Finding a great deal on a 2017 today that is halfway across the country is unlikely to be much more expensive a month from now, especially if you consider travel costs, hassle, and buying a car sooner than you really want. The "buy it now before prices go up" is normally more sales tactics than anything, especially with new model years.

How far away was the "halfway across the country" and assuming this would have involved multiple drivers or a flight, then hotel rooms or a miserable experience?

I live in Cincinnati but last three cars (used) came from Phoenix, Boston and Jacksonville so I have some experience with the hassles and costs that come with long distant purchases and would only do it for hard to find cars or great deals on used, not on a new car.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Mazda 3s said:


> If your docs are under review (no matter when you submitted them) they have ten business days to approve/deny. So if you submitted before the ruling, the 10 biz days starts from the time the ruling was made (10/25). If you are submitting today, for example, your 10 days starts from the time they receive them.
> 
> Once the docs are approved (initial approval) they have 10 biz day for the auditor to send your offer.
> 
> That's what I was told at least. As for those that had their docs rejected, I have no clue.


The 10 business days actually starts tomorrow. They had 5 days from the court date to begin doing the claims (Tuesday, Nov 1st) and the clock for the 10 day window begins then. VW just got a jump on it early. :thumbup:


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

.yuk. said:


> VW will pay off your lien and either issue you a check or Direct Deposit for the difference. It's all in the formal package you received in the mail.
> :thumbup:


That explains half of his question but do they ever talk about the time frame?


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

dmorrow said:


> That explains half of his question but do they ever talk about the time frame?


You cannot register for the date of buyback until VW approves your claim (plus the audit). After this they will send you the "Final Offer" and I am assuming that is when we can schedule the appointment. 

Plus this doesn't officially kick off until tomorrow.


----------



## fknlo (Jun 30, 2004)

dmorrow said:


> Finding a great deal on a 2017 today that is halfway across the country is unlikely to be much more expensive a month from now, especially if you consider travel costs, hassle, and buying a car sooner than you really want. The "buy it now before prices go up" is normally more sales tactics than anything, especially with new model years.
> 
> How far away was the "halfway across the country" and assuming this would have involved multiple drivers or a flight, then hotel rooms or a miserable experience?
> 
> I live in Cincinnati but last three cars (used) came from Phoenix, Boston and Jacksonville so I have some experience with the hassles and costs that come with long distant purchases and would only do it for hard to find cars or great deals on used, not on a new car.


It's literally halfway across the country. It's on the east coast, I'm dead center. Travel would have been $150 in air fare and then gas back. Maybe a hotel room for a night. The "buy it now before prices go up" doesn't work in this scenario at all. They know I'm interested and willing to put money down, they know it's not possible for me to make it there today, they know I would have been able to be there tomorrow. They had a sale. VW sets the incentives, which change tomorrow, and therefore they said that the current price wouldn't hold if the deal wasn't completed today. If the price isn't the same or extremely close tomorrow they have lost a sale. Tomorrow is even the start of my weekend and I have a long weekend so it would have worked out perfectly for me. I might even write VWoA a letter telling them this was a great opportunity to secure a repeat buyer after the diesel scandal that got ****ed up because of stupidity on how their incentives work. Borderline crazy prices on exactly what I want are the only way they're going to get me into another VW.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

.yuk. said:


> You cannot register for the date of buyback until VW approves your claim (plus the audit). After this they will send you the "Final Offer" and I am assuming that is when we can schedule the appointment.
> 
> Plus this doesn't officially kick off until tomorrow.


I meant his question on the time frame to get his money. He drops off the car, they pay off the lien, then gets the check when? I see this as a possible issue for some that need the check to buy the next car and people may want to understand what they will be facing before they do it. I assume it will be relatively quick but I think he has a valid question and should plan on this amount of time without the car or money.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

The answer is literally in the paperwork we all received in the mail. The check will be given that day, or Direct Deposit within 3 business days I believe.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

fknlo said:


> It's literally halfway across the country. It's on the east coast, I'm dead center. Travel would have been $150 in air fare and then gas back. Maybe a hotel room for a night. The "buy it now before prices go up" doesn't work in this scenario at all. They know I'm interested and willing to put money down, they know it's not possible for me to make it there today, they know I would have been able to be there tomorrow. They had a sale. VW sets the incentives, which change tomorrow, and therefore they said that the current price wouldn't hold if the deal wasn't completed today. If the price isn't the same or extremely close tomorrow they have lost a sale. Tomorrow is even the start of my weekend and I have a long weekend so it would have worked out perfectly for me. I might even write VWoA a letter telling them this was a great opportunity to secure a repeat buyer after the diesel scandal that got ****ed up because of stupidity on how their incentives work. Borderline crazy prices on exactly what I want are the only way they're going to get me into another VW.


I am skeptical of the $150 day before the flight to go halfway across the country but either way no point in worrying about it. See what's available at some point in November and even if $1000 more and it is close you really only end up paying $500 and avoid all of this hassle and miles on the car.

With the deal above someone takes you to the airport in your city, fly halfway across the country, taking most of the day, take a cab to the dealer as you can't rent a car and end up with two, always a chance you get there and the F something up and the deal falls through (a huge amount of wasted money and time), then late in the day you get in the car and start a 1000 mile drive home (guess), trying to make it in a day as you have 16 hours to drive and this is with the night in a hotel plus food and gas. 2-3 days are gone and it wasn't a fun trip.

I did this with both Jacksonville and Boston and far from cheap or easy (Jacksonville stayed with a relative on way back). Phoenix I had the car shipped and never saw it until it arrived in Cincinnati (friend looked at it there).


----------



## SoLo2pointO (Jul 12, 2001)

dmorrow said:


> I meant his question on the time frame to get his money. He drops off the car, they pay off the lien, then gets the check when? I see this as a possible issue for some that need the check to buy the next car and people may want to understand what they will be facing before they do it. I assume it will be relatively quick but I think he has a valid question and should plan on this amount of time without the car or money.


Yes, my question was more of a timing issue. When will the funds be available to me so I can purchase my next vehicle.



.yuk. said:


> The answer is literally in the paperwork we all received in the mail. The check will be given that day, or Direct Deposit within 3 business days I believe.


Thanks. I misplaced my paperwork. I'll see if I can read though the document online. :thumbup:

Edit: Page 8 of the Class Action Long Form...


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

SoLo2pointO said:


> Yes, my question was more of a timing issue. When will the funds be available to me so I can purchase my next vehicle.


If you are taking a big check to the bank to deposit and use immediately, I would contact the bank to see if they will make the funds available immediately. 

-another words, the direct deposit might be the easier way to go if you are taking your money elsewhere.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

I posted this elsewhere but just want to update on my situation - we are taking the buyback - 

_
Well officially bye and I'm done with VW - 

Dealers want to order us an Alltrack for a paltry $500 off MSRP - this is after talking to 4 local dealers, that's the "best I can get" as a TDI owner looking to stay with the brand - same with ordering a Golf Sportwagen SEL with Lighting (combo has to be special ordered)

Even if that was a somewhat acceptable offer for a new vehicle, at $35,000, just remarking on the Alltrack itself, I don't know what it is but they feel so much cheaper inside, and out than the MK6 Sportwagen we have now - I don't know if its too much Mexican parts content or what - 

We are going with a CPO M-Sport X3 35i, coming off the first lease they should be right in the low to mid 30's, which is Alltrack pricing - we'll get CPO warranty, a huge amount of features for an originally 56k car, 0.9% financing for 48 months so we'll be done with the loan at the same time this Sportwagen would have been done.


I intended to stay with VW, but even if my wife fell in love with the Alltrack she was not about to accept the "limited availability" BS story you get from dealers - VW doesn't have the allotment or ability to fulfill replacement vehicles in my opinion unless its a volume model like a Jetta or a Passat, and I think they are going to lose a ton of customers from this. But I think they don't care._


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

9% Financing??


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Fixed - 0.9 lol - I have 790+ credit


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Everyone and their brother must be accessing the server right now. Trying to upload our docs and basically in greybar for like ever.


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

Having a hard time trying to access the portal just to check my status :banghead:

Edit - Tried again. Site is down completely for me


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW denies diesel fixes could damage engines*



> BERLIN -- Volkswagen Group said it has refitted 1.23 million diesel cars with a software update on pollution control systems. The automaker denied that its fixes may damage the vehicles' engines.
> 
> The European Commission fears software updates carried out by VW could inflict greater stress on engine components, Spiegel reported, citing unnamed staff at the EU's executive branch.
> 
> ...


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Agreed, been having issues accessing all day ... but mines all approved but curious of any changes.

Hyundai isn't waiting like VW in trying to get #DieselGate customers in the doors...
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/10/29/hyundai-discounts-owners-dirty-vw-diesels/


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> Agreed, been having issues accessing all day ... but mines all approved but curious of any changes.
> 
> Hyundai isn't waiting like VW in trying to get #DieselGate customers in the doors...
> http://www.autoblog.com/2016/10/29/hyundai-discounts-owners-dirty-vw-diesels/


That seems to be only 1 dealer at this time.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Trust me they won't be the only dealer doing this - talked to my BMW dealer this weekend and he said if TDI owners want to go to BMW that his manager has authorized them to do as much as possible to gain new customers if someone comes in and said they were looking at other brands and wanted to leave VW after this fiasco - as we know people tend to be loyal to their brands so from other manufacturer's perspective this is like free leads and a big opportunity to gain potentially a few thousand more customers just from Dieselgate


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

No doubt every manufacturer with product that could work for dieselgate owners should be working to steal VW's customers. It is surprising that no one has announced anything yet. But I will bet it will happen once the money starts flowing.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

I can't even log in. I am getting error code 500! WTF was that? Now I have a blank screen. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

2ohgti said:


> I can't even log in. I am getting error code 500! WTF was that? Now I have a blank screen.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maintenance message now 



> The Claims Portal is temporarily undergoing a brief maintenance period while we are working on system enhancements to improve the user experience.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Sump said:


> Maintenance message now


Figures 

Thanks 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Yea, vw is down right now!


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

It is up for me.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

.yuk. said:


> Yea, vw is down right now!


guess they didnt expect 1 million-ish people (500k who should be there, plus 500k lookyloo's  ) hitting their page all at once.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Documents uploaded and final review for approval begins - Set tentative buyback date for 12/15 - As long as my wife doesn't drive 6k miles before the end of the year we are getting just under $30.5k for her 2014 JSW with up to 35k miles at time of trade in - that's a few grand more than we paid, looking forward to getting this over with -


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Still can't log in. I have been trying all day 
Time to start calling I guess.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

spockcat said:


> No doubt every manufacturer with product that could work for dieselgate owners should be working to steal VW's customers. It is surprising that no one has announced anything yet. But I will bet it will happen once the money starts flowing.


Volvo already has a page on their site trying to lure TDI drivers, and we got spam in today's mail for an extra $1,000 of a new BMW. Darn, on the same day we pick up the second TDI replacement for our household...


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

.yuk. said:


> The answer is literally in the paperwork we all received in the mail.



It's frustrating how many questions are being asked in this and other threads, in which the answers are in the paperwork and on the website! 

It's one thing if someone has a question that is not covered by the materials, or that may be in a gray area. 

But many of the questions are already clearly and concisely answered.


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

Finally was able to login. Still no change. Sit in hold the other night for 4 hours. Representative told me they have 10 days from the court approval, or the date you submit after the court approval, to approve your documents. Then we should receive final offers that will have to be notarized and submitted back to them and you'll get a buyback date. She said it should move quickly once you get docs approved. We shall see. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

I got our docs loaded at about 5pm yesterday. 

Spouse wants a GTI Sport DSG in Carbon Grey. I approve.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

Docs are accepted and waiting approval. Went and drove a 2017 WRX a few weeks ago...that leapfrogged past the GTI I drove previously for the Golf replacement. IMO more car for less money, although after 5 or 6 VWs its taking some getting used to the idea of not driving/owning one.


----------



## jdiaz (Feb 16, 2009)

Regretfully submitted our GSW paperwork last night. Probably won't turn it in until February/March time period, and then will spend the spring and summer looking for something else, and as usual, the list of replacements is all over the map.

We did stop by the dealership last Saturday around 3pm, and it was actually busy. Our guy said that traffic really picked up after the completion of the settlement in mid-October.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Put our JSW to "work" last night umpkin: ... I call it "Waiting for VW to buyback our TDI" umpkin: :laugh::laugh:


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

One of my files still under review that I know is wrong and been waiting for them to cancel it so I can upload the right paperwork...


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

SixpackMk3 said:


> One of my files still under review that I know is wrong and been waiting for them to cancel it so I can upload the right paperwork...


You could call and tell them to reject it, but you will have to wait on hold for 5 hours.


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

I was able to log in this morning, but my documents are still under review.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

benjaminobscene said:


> I was able to log in this morning, but my documents are still under review.


Same, and it's been over a month


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

2ohgti said:


> Still can't log in. I have been trying all day
> Time to start calling I guess.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What do people call about? Honestly curious. Oddball ownership situations? Doc status? because if it's Doc status, we're all in the same boat. The actual paperwork/appointment process technically starts today correct?

But speaking of this almost being over. I found a set of wheels for the TDI yesterday finally $80!. Luckily they only came with 2 hubscaps total and the tires are totally shot. Porto's are going on the GTI


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

Sump said:


> Porto's are going on the GTI


I'll be using the portos for winters on my GTI. :beer:


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

i honestly just dont get why so many of you are being so impatient about this.
yes its been a year. but there has been consistent communications throughout. half way through the year everyone knew what dates were relevant, etc. and the court just approved the case a week ago, yes a week late... big whoop 7 days off.

yuk has been in here and provided a more detailed timeline. we very easily have a 2-3 week wait (10-20 days). 
checking on the docs for approval every day or hour, and getting pissed about it only serves to add frustration.

take a step back and realize that you have never had to do anything nearly as complex as what is happening here... its going to take some time to get everything up to speed and processed. 
remember this is 500k cars, with many more moving parts than just 1 per scenario. so millions of contacts and connections need to be created, mapped, managed. this will all take time.

the value of the car is static unless you go over the 1042 miles per month mark, and then you are only losing value at the rate of about $500 per 5k miles driven ABOVE the 1042 per month.
$500 and 5000 miles is 1 cent per mile.

there are very few situations where you will get that sort of depreciation.

with that said.
there are some people that do have some room to complain. but most complaints are just people being impatient and whiny... not people with a real money impact (lots just want to move on to the next shiny car).
for those people that DO have upcoming maintenance or licensing due (our yearly tabs are due 11/30). i feel for the situation.

but even with those hurdles in place, it seems like most who have mentioned it already have a plan to defer the service work, or have the option to just stop driving the car.
a third option of delaying the buyback IS also a very valid choice. the buyback restitution and amount of locked for you minus the mileage adjustment. so very little harm or risk for you to extend out your buyback date expectations.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

dunhamjr said:


> i honestly just dont get why so many of you are being so impatient about this.


because


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Not only have I gotten email from '[email protected]' more than once, but I've also received it in more than one email address.... 100% confirms to me that '[email protected]' is spam/phishing.... DELETE :banghead:

DO NOT CLICK THE LINKS IN THAT EMAIL, Mouse over and you will see the redirected URL's and I'd you delete like I have.


----------



## Meconlin (May 19, 2013)

I am upset because I have a timing issue. I moved back to ski country and want awd for the winters here. So I have three cars now, one of which I wanted VW to take back today. I made the choice to buy the new awd car ahead of the buyback because I believed this would be over by early nov. I am nervous now it will take longer.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Meconlin said:


> I am upset because I have a timing issue. I moved back to ski country and want awd for the winters here. So I have three cars now, one of which I wanted VW to take back today. I made the choice to buy the new awd car ahead of the buyback because I believed this would be over by early nov. I am nervous now it will take longer.


understood. 

but this issue is one of your own making right? you jumped the gun timing wise and bought a car before the other car was out the door. 
if your finances couldnt absorb the new expense without concern, while i understand the frustration, the issue is not VW's to correct.
i too bought a replacement car for my wifes TDI. I bought it back in late June. I knew the TDI settlement was still months out. But also the payment is only about $100/mo right now... so our budget is fine.

i get AWD might be preferred. but FWD cars with great snow tires are pretty damn good.

if there was no dieselgate, you would have really been selling the TDI already? and if there was no dieselgate would you have really bought a new car THEN sold the old one?
sounds to me like anticipating the buyback you did some things you would not normally do, and were not 100% comfortable with doing.

your assumption that VW was going to buyback your TDI 1-2 weeks after the original court case approval date was quite ambitious.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

veedubBiker said:


> because


:beer:


----------



## GlhTroy (Aug 6, 2013)

NickCarter said:


> Then we should receive final offers that will have to be notarized and submitted back to them and you'll get a buyback date. S
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



So I guess we will have to mail the notarized docs back to them? Or will they have someone at the dealership to give it back to? Only notarized paper work I have ever felt with is an embossing not a stamp, which would eliminate them being digitally submitted

Troy 

And thanks for taking one for the team and being on hold for 4 hours🍺🍺

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Some of the notary is a stamp now so we MIGHT be able to fax but i guess the VW offer will dictate this.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

dunhamjr said:


> i honestly just dont get why so many of you are being so impatient about this.


Not everyone is impatient: I set my Golf buyback for September 1, 2018 and just got the notice that all my docs are submitted and under review, so they can take all the time they need. And, of course, the '09 Jetta needs to await the emissions fix before we can get paid, but at least all the docs are submitted for that, too.

What color RAM eco-diesel should I get in September 2018?


----------



## VdubyaVR6 (Mar 8, 2004)

Driving mine until next year sometime when it gets closer to having to replace the tires. 

I also have no idea what I want to replace the TDI with. I can't decide if I want to get something big enough and a trailer to tow the R to different tracks/autox events or something like a Golf R...


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

I'll admit I'm just impatient to get into the shiny new car. No shame here.
Especially since I've spotted a smoking deal on a lightly used S4 and don't want it to get sold


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

T5 Dave said:


> Not everyone is impatient: I set my Golf buyback for September 1, 2018 and just got the notice that all my docs are submitted and under review, so they can take all the time they need. And, of course, the '09 Jetta needs to await the emissions fix before we can get paid, but at least all the docs are submitted for that, too.
> 
> What color RAM eco-diesel should I get in September 2018?


I realize that as well. But you also aren't in here posting every day or two complaining about how long the proceedings are taking, wondering why they couldn't just perform your buyback last week, or complaining that its been 12 minutes and the documents you uploaded still haven't been approved GRRR. 

If we were in a different car/house position right now, I would likely push the wife to keep her car another couple of years.
Heck... maybe if I can get a more compelling argument for her, based on facts that she deems vague right now (actual savings/cost to keep the car, what happens if salvaged, etc), then maybe I can get her to hold out a couple more years in the TDI as well.

Honestly, she likes the car just fine. We don't need the money. We are only mildly annoyed at VW for lying/cheating, not enough to prevent me from buying the brand again. The biggest problem is my car purchasing habit, the house now has 5 cars and a motorcycle. With a 2 car garage. If I got rid of the Saab and the Audi, I am sure the wife would be fine keeping her TDI till Sept 2018.

As for the RAM... how about...
Sassy Grass Green?
Plum Crazy?
Go Mango?
Hemi Orange?


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

So do i need to do anything after my documents were approved at step 15? It does give me the option to "download" the files. Do I need to do that?


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

AJB said:


> So do i need to do anything after my documents were approved at step 15? It does give me the option to "download" the files. Do I need to do that?


 I think that's just so people can download copies if they didn't save their scans or you want to double check what you uploaded is correct.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

dunhamjr said:


> i honestly just dont get why so many of you are being so impatient about this.


As someone else said, I want a nice shiny new car...

And my car past due for service...
And my registration/property taxes are due at the end of the month...
And I need to put new tires on the car...

I'd rather not put money into a car that I'd be happy to ditch ASAP.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

atomicalex said:


> I got our docs loaded at about 5pm yesterday.
> 
> Spouse wants a GTI Sport DSG in Carbon Grey. I approve.


I ❤ my carbon grey.












Sump said:


> What do people call about? Honestly curious. Oddball ownership situations? Doc status? because if it's Doc status, we're all in the same boat. The actual paperwork/appointment process technically starts today correct?
> 
> But speaking of this almost being over. I found a set of wheels for the TDI yesterday finally $80!. Luckily they only came with 2 hubscaps total and the tires are totally shot. Porto's are going on the GTI


Site issues. I want to check the status of my docs. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

T5 Dave said:


> Not everyone is impatient: I set my Golf buyback for September 1, 2018 and just got the notice that all my docs are submitted and under review, so they can take all the time they need. And, of course, the '09 Jetta needs to await the emissions fix before we can get paid, but at least all the docs are submitted for that, too.
> 
> What color RAM eco-diesel should I get in September 2018?


I'm patient but not _that_ patient. I want to get a house next year and I'm relying a huge chunk of the down payment from this buyback.

I have mine requested for March or April 2017 so I'm not fretting about it. I drive mine once a week and drive the Civic hatch rest of the week so I ain't sweatin' it.


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

TheRealCaptainSlow said:


> I'll admit I'm just impatient to get into the shiny new car. No shame here.
> Especially since I've spotted a smoking deal on a lightly used S4 and don't want it to get sold


^^ this ^^

Pretty much stole my GLI from a local Ford dealer, sure it's a 2015 but I saved nearly $10k by letting someone else try it for the first 24k miles, and my husband just picked up a 2017 GTI for $5200 off sticker out the door. Neither of our TDIs had outstanding payments, so we were in a position to take the plunge now.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Yay, finally my docs are good. Now just waiting on what comes next 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

GlhTroy said:


> So I guess we will have to mail the notarized docs back to them? Or will they have someone at the dealership to give it back to? Only notarized paper work I have ever felt with is an embossing not a stamp, which would eliminate them being digitally submitted
> 
> Troy
> 
> ...


She said submit via fax, online, or mail. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

Mazda 3s said:


> As someone else said, I want a nice shiny new car...
> 
> And my car past due for service...
> And my registration/property taxes are due at the end of the month...
> ...



Here's another way to think about it: you're putting money into a car that won't depreciate, instead of putting money into a car that does depreciate. Yeah, you probably don't want to put that kind of money into a car days before turning it in. But you don't have to turn it in in a few days (well, unless your lease is up or something). Time everything so you maximize your return on investment. You have two years in which to turn it in.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I can't remember what date I set for my turn in. I really hope I didn't put December or January in there.

Edit. Never mind, I put 11/1. :thumbup:


----------



## SoLo2pointO (Jul 12, 2001)

Documents have been approved for me. I set my return date as 11/1.

Went to go look at a 2017 Passat last night since the Alltrack is way out of my price range. Almost pulled the trigger! Does anyone know of any incentives or financing that may happen for the month of November? I was hesitant to buy if VW may be offering better deals in the next few weeks...


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

2ohgti said:


> Yay, finally my docs are good. Now just waiting on what comes next
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





SoLo2pointO said:


> Documents have been approved for me. I set my return date as 11/1.


When did you guys first submit your docs?


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

damn, i submitted my forms well over a month ago and still under review.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW settlement questioned by U.S. lawmakers*



> WASHINGTON -- Two senior U.S. Republicans lawmakers pressed the Environmental Protection Agency for answers about aspects of Volkswagen Group's deal with the Department of Justice and the agency to settle aspects of the automaker's diesel emissions violations, saying the settlement could give VW an advantage as it readies a major electric-vehicle push.
> 
> Part of the settlement, approved last week by U.S. District Court Judge Charles Breyer, requires VW to invest $2 billion in zero-emission vehicles over the next decade.
> 
> ...


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

biturbowagon said:


> Here's another way to think about it: you're putting money into a car that won't depreciate, instead of putting money into a car that does depreciate. Yeah, you probably don't want to put that kind of money into a car days before turning it in. But you don't have to turn it in in a few days (well, unless your lease is up or something). Time everything so you maximize your return on investment. You have two years in which to turn it in.


I'm actually doing that for the 2015 Golf as I'd only be paying $1k to $2k to lease it for 44 months, but in my wife's case the money we'd get back for the 2009 in a buyback would only buy half a new car to replace it. So we'd be out $13k if we got the buyback. The 2009 should run for another 12 years and my wife likes the thing, so it's actually cheaper in the long run to take the restitution and let them fix the car rather than doing the buyback.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

spockcat said:


> *VW settlement questioned by U.S. lawmakers*


It doesn't surprise me one of those US Reps is from Michigan.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Looks like the initial backlog is clearing, my docs were just approved.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

Has anyone received their offer letter yet? I'm curious to see how that works. Do we get to hang onto it as long as we like before scheduling an appointment, or does it expire after xx days and force us to go through the process again? I haven't yet decided what replacement vehicle I want and the November incentives are pretty weak for most makes I'm interested in. I was hoping for a good Audi incentive but theirs is crap- waived first payment is the only thing they're offering right now.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Mazda 3s said:


> When did you guys first submit your docs?


2-3 weeks ago. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

I believe they only started approving them after the settlement was approved in court so I think it started on Monday? So you have 10 days from when you submit your docs -


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

It's still a process once vw approves the docs


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Ricky Bobby said:


> I believe they only started approving them after the settlement was approved in court so I think it started on Monday? So you have 10 days from when you submit your docs -


Tuesday was the start date, so that's when the 10 days would start. I did my upload a month ago and mine hasn't been looked at yet by vw. But we did a ton of claims so far this week. :thumbup:


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

.yuk. said:


> Tuesday was the start date, so that's when the 10 days would start. I did my upload a month ago and mine hasn't been looked at yet by vw. But we did a ton of claims so far this week.


That's great! 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

.yuk. said:


> Tuesday was the start date, so that's when the 10 days would start. I did my upload a month ago and mine hasn't been looked at yet by vw. But we did a ton of claims so far this week. :thumbup:


Hey that's awesome be sure to take care of mine wink wink


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

.yuk. said:


> It's still a process once vw approves the docs


Another 10 days, right, then your offer packet?


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Wonder if with the 10 days, then having the signature with Notary and then mailing in... wonder if I will get #DasPolluter off my driveway. - Edit* by the end of November...*


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Mazda 3s said:


> Another 10 days, right, then your offer packet?


Kinda?


----------



## firstorbit84 (Feb 25, 2006)

A dealer by me is already offering the trade values (I think only if you buy another car from them). they're essentially fronting the money out of their pockets and then will get the reimbursement from VW later


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

firstorbit84 said:


> A dealer by me is already offering the trade values (I think only if you buy another car from them). they're essentially fronting the money out of their pockets and then will get the reimbursement from VW later


Doesn't really work that way. Curious how they will do that.


----------



## firstorbit84 (Feb 25, 2006)

.yuk. said:


> Doesn't really work that way. Curious how they will do that.


They said they're holding the cars. I'm assuming they'll just leave em at the back of the lot until all the paperwork goes through.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

Mazda 3s said:


> Looks like the initial backlog is clearing, my docs were just approved.


When you say your "docs were just approved", do you mean that they've been accepted for the final review? Or, do you mean that they've been reviewed and you have been determined to be eligible for the buyback?


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

tomski12 said:


> When you say your "docs were just approved", do you mean that they've been accepted for the final review? Or, do you mean that they've been reviewed and you have been determined to be eligible for the buyback?


Accepted.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Yeah I saw an add for a dealer offering that...and they in no way fronted the money, it was another loan, that you had to pay off once the car was purchased back.


----------



## todcp (Mar 6, 2005)

I called when I saw the claims site says documentation being reviewed. They said if there is a blue eye that means my paperwork is in line to be sent out. Mine showed the blue eye of both documents. They told me an offer letter would go out that needs to be notarized and sent back. Once they have the notorized document back from me another week or so. Mid November earliest.
The person on the phone was very nice. I waited on hold for over an hour.

My request to have the car bought back went in the same day. The update on the site for uploading my documents was completed by me on the second day.


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

todcp said:


> ...They said if there is a blue eye that means my paperwork is in line to be sent out...


Curious, so my husband's car that we filed yesterday shows blue eye...


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

T5 Dave said:


> I'm actually doing that for the 2015 Golf as I'd only be paying $1k to $2k to lease it for 44 months, but in my wife's case the money we'd get back for the 2009 in a buyback would only buy half a new car to replace it. So we'd be out $13k if we got the buyback. The 2009 should run for another 12 years and my wife likes the thing, so it's actually cheaper in the long run to take the restitution and let them fix the car rather than doing the buyback.



If you're really going to hold onto it that long, and if your state is one that will not enforce emissions, then you may just want to ignore all of this, don't sign up, don't take any money, and just drive the car. You may be better off in the end, depending on the nature of the fix (if any).

I have been told that my state is going to enforce emissions, so it's not an option for me.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Green Hare said:


> Curious, so my husband's car that we filed yesterday shows blue eye...


Where are you guys seeing the "blue eyes"? Just checked mine and don't really know where to look for those...


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

automobiliben said:


> Where are you guys seeing the "blue eyes"? Just checked mine and don't really know where to look for those...


The blue eyes were for each document. Now that mine have been approved, there is a green check mark. Thus, I think the blue eyes meant the documents were in que to be reviewed or were being reviewed. I will report back how long it is for them to determine my eligibility.


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

Two green checks, hoping this thing is out of my driveway before the first snowfall


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

VeeDubMan54 said:


> Two green checks, hoping this thing is out of my driveway before the first snowfall


Good luck :laugh:


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

biturbowagon said:


> If you're really going to hold onto it that long, and if your state is one that will not enforce emissions, then you may just want to ignore all of this, don't sign up, don't take any money, and just drive the car. You may be better off in the end, depending on the nature of the fix (if any).
> 
> I have been told that my state is going to enforce emissions, so it's not an option for me.


I'm in California. No way they'll let me register if a fix isn't approved. Which means I'll most likely have to buy my wife another car if hers isn't approved. Gaah. It was cheaper in the long run to just keep hers (2009) than take the buyback and shop for something else. On my car (2015) seeing as how the car isn't depreciating then I'll take advantage of that, but maximize my usage of it until I have to turn it in. After December 31, 2018 the 2015 starts to depreciate again and will only have the value of a 4 year-old car, so I might as well turn it in at full value before that and start the depreciation clock on something else that actually has more value.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

Anyone else get the 'packets' yesterday? I got excited for a second until I realized we got *3 *copies and it was too thin of a mailer.

Basically saying court has approved the buyback go sign up on the website. :sly:


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

Sump said:


> Anyone else get the 'packets' yesterday? I got excited for a second until I realized we got *3 *copies and it was too thin of a mailer.
> 
> Basically saying court has approved the buyback go sign up on the website. :sly:


Yep, we got our two.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Sump said:


> Anyone else get the 'packets' yesterday? I got excited for a second until I realized we got *3 *copies and it was too thin of a mailer.
> 
> Basically saying court has approved the buyback go sign up on the website. :sly:


I got this last Friday. My first thought was....if they don't have a way for an auto-mailer data system to see that I have already done this, we are in for a long 'processing time'.


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

VT1.8T said:


> The blue eyes were for each document. Now that mine have been approved, there is a green check mark. Thus, I think the blue eyes meant the documents were in que to be reviewed or were being reviewed. I will report back how long it is for them to determine my eligibility.


I uploaded my docs on 10/20 and received this email at 2:14am ET this morning: 



> We have reviewed the documents you submitted as part of your claim with reference number XXXXXXXXX. Currently, your application contains all of the necessary documentation to determine your eligibility. We are now determining your eligibility and will inform you whether you are eligible to participate in the VW/Audi Diesel Emissions Settlement Program.


So... we shall see, it says 10 business days on the portal.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

Green Hare said:


> So... we shall see, it says 10 business days on the portal.


See, that's how I read it at first also, but then re-reading it, it says:



> We have reviewed all of your documents. Currently, your application contains all the necessary documentation to determine your eligibility. We are now determining your eligibility and will inform you whether you are eligible to participate in the Settlement Claims Program and, if applicable, will provide you with a final offer, within ten business days.


So, I read that as, "we have your documents. We took a long time to decide whether you provided the right documents. Congrats, you did! Now, we will take even longer to use the information from those documents to decide whether you're actually eligible. If (IF!) we eventually decide that you are eligible, we will provide an offer within ten days of such decision."

So, maybe I'm being overly cynical, but I'm not getting my hopes up.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Sump said:


> Anyone else get the 'packets' yesterday? I got excited for a second until I realized we got *3 *copies and it was too thin of a mailer.
> 
> Basically saying court has approved the buyback go sign up on the website. :sly:


I thought I was the lucky one getting 3 :screwy: of the same thing ... thou one has wifey's name on it...


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> I thought I was the lucky one getting 3 :screwy: of the same thing ... thou one has wifey's name on it...


We got two envelopes, one with wifey's name, the other with mine, but there were two sheet in mine that were exactly alike except for one number on the address line.

I guess they like spending money on postage . . . . .


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

veedubBiker said:


> See, that's how I read it at first also, but then re-reading it, it says:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree, but to start the claim on the portal, if I recall Question 1 was "please enter your VIN number" and then it popped up saying "this is a 2010 Golf" (mine) or "this is a 2011 Jetta Sportwagen" (husband's). Either case, I'd like to get this done with as quickly as possible, I'm just hoping to have mine done before 12/31 and his done before 1/31 to make the transfer of our reserved plates to our new vehicles just a bit easier (that's when the tags presently expire).


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

T5 Dave said:


> We got two envelopes, one with wifey's name, the other with mine, but there were two sheet in mine that were exactly alike except for one number on the address line.
> 
> I guess they like spending money on postage . . . . .


Since you have two cars.
Is the wifes name on one, and your name on both?

That might explain the reasoning behind two mailings with one envelop getting two copies inside.

As for the postage costs.
They have to be very careful, paying a little more postage to make sure that they get all comms out... even duplicates... will help to ensure no one involved can say VW broke their end of the deal, etc.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

Green Hare said:


> I agree, but to start the claim on the portal, if I recall Question 1 was "please enter your VIN number" and then it popped up saying "this is a 2010 Golf" (mine) or "this is a 2011 Jetta Sportwagen" (husband's). Either case, I'd like to get this done with as quickly as possible, I'm just hoping to have mine done before 12/31 and his done before 1/31 to make the transfer of our reserved plates to our new vehicles just a bit easier (that's when the tags presently expire).


Yeah, that was one of the first things available on the portal, a VIN search to confirm eligibility. Now, they need to take all that data and confirm that yes, you do in fact own the vehicle with that VIN, it is registered, your loan information is correct, etc. Once that is confirmed, I think they give 10 business days to get an offer out. I want it done soon as well....my car is starting to develop some weird electrical gremlins and I just want it gone before it leaves me stranded someplace or catches on fire or something.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

veedubBiker said:


> So, I read that as, "we have your documents. We took a long time to decide whether you provided the right documents. Congrats, you did! Now, we will take even longer to use the information from those documents to decide whether you're actually eligible. If (IF!) we eventually decide that you are eligible, we will provide an offer within ten days of such decision."
> 
> So, maybe I'm being overly cynical, but I'm not getting my hopes up.


It has to be audited first. Then you would receive the offer. No one in here listens or reads anything I say.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

.yuk. said:


> It has to be audited first. Then you would receive the offer. No one in here listens or reads anything I say.



Um, whut?

:beer:


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I give up trying to help. :heart::laugh::wave::bs:


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

.yuk. said:


> I give up trying to help. :heart::laugh::wave::bs:



yo but srsly tho, when am I going to get a check?


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Back of the line


----------



## Meconlin (May 19, 2013)

Yes and no. I would have replaced this car for one with AWD no matter what. The buyback is my only way to do that now. My finances are fine. Without diesel gate I would have sold this car months ago before moving. East Vail gets a lot of snow.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Has anyone heard of any incentives to current TDI owners outside of the national promos? 

http://www.vw.com/special-offers/


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

aj4066 said:


> Has anyone heard of any incentives to current TDI owners outside of the national promos?
> 
> http://www.vw.com/special-offers/


According to 4 of my local NJ dealers, nope. Basically whatever incentives VW is offering the month you get a new car. Sign then drive probably coming back. Most I got offered was $500 off MSRP to order an Alltrack (since none with my color combo were in the pipeline) - 

My guess is that the dealers figure they will have a ton of people coming in the door so why should they do anything, "they should be happy with what VW gives them on the buyback" is the attitude I have gotten - none of them have bent over backwards in our scenario to keep a customer in the brand - not that I expect anything out of this world, but a couple of k off a $35k car doesn't seem like much to ask. See my post in the Sportwagen thread "Emissions Recall" for my details - since my X5 has treated me well we are going to BMW, who even told us on a CPO there would be discounts on the asking price and scoffed at what VW was offering us. 

I don't really care about the VW dealer excuses "We don't have the inventory to keep up" - "VW gave you so much on a buyback you should be happy" - "Why don't you pick something on the lot out of the extremely limited availability we have we don't want to order you something" - if my experience is the national dealer attitude to hold prices firm in order to make up for lackluster sales over the past year, they are going to have half of the 300-350k owners taking the buyback currently, out of the door and into a different brand.

I also don't care for the VW excuses on Option #2 the unknown and undescribed as yet to come fix - "We have to wait for EPA approval" - "We gave them a fix but the EPA rejected it" - "The EPA is being too hard on us" - which is why I didn't end up keeping the vehicle - because Volkswagen already *****footed around enough, and now I have to decide between getting 3k more for my car than we paid for it, or some undetermined "fix" which needs a rubber stamp from the EPA first, on a vehicle that is the worst generation of NOX output out of all 3, yeah, I wasn't holding my breath.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Ricky Bobby said:


> I also don't care for the VW excuses on Option #2 the unknown and undescribed as yet to come fix - "We have to wait for EPA approval" - "We gave them a fix but the EPA rejected it" - "The EPA is being too hard on us" - which is why I didn't end up keeping the vehicle - because Volkswagen already *****footed around enough, and now I have to decide between getting 3k more for my car than we paid for it, or some undetermined "fix" which needs a rubber stamp from the EPA first, on a vehicle that is the worst generation of NOX output out of all 3, yeah, I wasn't holding my breath.


The big question for those of us who want the fix is how many will *not* go for the buyback even if the fix isn't approved, thus forcing VW to pay even *more* because it won't meet the 85% minimum. So I suspect that there's a possibility that if the fix isn't approved for any generation and if those owners who wanted the fix don't accept the buyback value (like I won't) then VW may have to sweeten the pot and give us more incentive to get us to turn the cars in. 

What forces VW to do this is if CARB and the EPA issues greater penalties if the 85% isn't met, the penalties could run into ~$25k or more per car.

Now, VW being VW (i.e., not clever about this) they may not realize the 'incentive' that CARB is offering and may just pay the fine rather than replacing the cars,

So the possibility of the offer getting sweetened if the fix is not approved (my guess) would be a 30% to 50% chance of additional incentives to the TDI owners. In short, I won't hold my breath, but it could happen.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

T5 Dave said:


> The big question for those of us who want the fix is how many will *not* go for the buyback even if the fix isn't approved, thus forcing VW to pay even *more* because it won't meet the 85% minimum. So I suspect that there's a possibility that if the fix isn't approved for any generation and if those owners who wanted the fix don't accept the buyback value (like I won't) then VW may have to sweeten the pot and give us more incentive to get us to turn the cars in.
> 
> What forces VW to do this is if CARB and the EPA issues greater penalties if the 85% isn't met, the penalties could run into ~$25k or more per car.
> 
> ...


The average cost of the settlement per car (assuming they achieve the 85%) is roughly $26,500 per vehicle. $10.7B/475,000 cars

If they miss the 85%, it works out to roughly $21,000 per vehicle that that they miss by. Assuming 100M per 1% (4750 cars) missed.

So it wouldn't make financial sense to sweeten the deal because the deal is already costing VW more than just doing nothing and getting fined...


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

Ricky Bobby said:


> According to 4 of my local NJ dealers, nope. Basically whatever incentives VW is offering the month you get a new car. Sign then drive probably coming back. Most I got offered was $500 off MSRP to order an Alltrack (since none with my color combo were in the pipeline) -
> 
> My guess is that the dealers figure they will have a ton of people coming in the door so why should they do anything, "they should be happy with what VW gives them on the buyback" is the attitude I have gotten - none of them have bent over backwards in our scenario to keep a customer in the brand - not that I expect anything out of this world, but a couple of k off a $35k car doesn't seem like much to ask. See my post in the Sportwagen thread "Emissions Recall" for my details - since my X5 has treated me well we are going to BMW, who even told us on a CPO there would be discounts on the asking price and scoffed at what VW was offering us.
> 
> ...


That's my perception too. I've noticed the discounts on Passats are less than they were a couple of months ago.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

T5 Dave said:


> The big question for those of us who want the fix is how many will *not* go for the buyback even if the fix isn't approved, thus forcing VW to pay even *more* because it won't meet the 85% minimum. So I suspect that there's a possibility that if the fix isn't approved for any generation and if those owners who wanted the fix don't accept the buyback value (like I won't) then VW may have to sweeten the pot and give us more incentive to get us to turn the cars in.
> 
> What forces VW to do this is if CARB and the EPA issues greater penalties if the 85% isn't met, the penalties could run into ~$25k or more per car.
> 
> ...


I honestly believe that VW will be able to easily get to the 85% needed not to be fined further.
Those people who will truly be hugely stubborn hold outs for a fix are really bound to be a small percentage of the overall 500k pool of cars.

Look at those numbers... that would mean that 65k-75k people just put their foot down and would not budge on taking the buy back if/when its found that a fix is not possible.

IMO, that's a huge number of people willing to gamble that the EPA will not be jerks and prevent registration/sale of the vehicles.
IMO, that gamble is WAY too big to assume so many people will risk it.

Just look at this forum as an example, where the owners are actually even more likely than the general buying public to fight.
How many owners actually are even trying to keep the car and have it fixed? Seems like a REALLY small number to me.

And now how many of THAT smaller group of people are willing to risk thousands of $$$ and registration headaches down the line if no fix is available, when they have a full fledged likely $10k-30k buy back amount staring them in the face?
I honestly think even the number of TDI enthusiasts who will take the gamble should it be found that no fix is possible, is a very short list. Definitely no where near 15% of the potential pool of cars.

Also remember that this 85% is both buy backs and fixes.
A LOT of buy backs will happen. Also a lot of the gen2/3 cars seem like they will be fixable.
So most of the 'no fix is possible' hold outs would be in the oldest cars in the pool as well. And at that point, many are going to do the buy back just because it really is time to move onto a newer, lower mileage vehicle regardless of dieselgate.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

E CODE said:


> The average cost of the settlement per car (assuming they achieve the 85%) is roughly $26,500 per vehicle. $10.7B/475,000 cars
> 
> If they miss the 85%, it works out to roughly $21,000 per vehicle that that they miss by. Assuming 100M per 1% (4750 cars) missed.
> 
> So it wouldn't make financial sense to sweeten the deal because the deal is already costing VW more than just doing nothing and getting fined...



^^IMO this - and VW will already have had enough headache by that time so I would imagine they would just say take the buyback or get nothing at all - Its a nice thought T5 Dave to "wait and see" as I also think they will never get the rubber stamp of the EPA/CARB on all 3 generations, even if not in 100% compliance, and its a gamble to see if the pot is sweetened, but I don't think its likely. The settlement is set and finalized, I don't think it will get changed.

Per one VW dealer I spoke with it would be "months" before even the "easiest" Gen3 fix is either approved or rejected by the EPA, I'm not sticking around for a fairytale fix for my Gen1 - I'm taking my money and hitting the road out of here. If they were intending on trying to get people to keep their cars I guarantee they would have had more people taking Option #2 if they actually had something approved by now - but most of us are sick of waiting for something that doesn't exist, for a settlement option that doesn't exist yet.

NINJA EDIT: Well said dunhamjr above, I agree on all fronts.


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

T5 Dave said:


> I'm in California. No way they'll let me register if a fix isn't approved. Which means I'll most likely have to buy my wife another car if hers isn't approved. Gaah. It was cheaper in the long run to just keep hers (2009) than take the buyback and shop for something else. On my car (2015) seeing as how the car isn't depreciating then I'll take advantage of that, but maximize my usage of it until I have to turn it in. After December 31, 2018 the 2015 starts to depreciate again and will only have the value of a 4 year-old car, so I might as well turn it in at full value before that and start the depreciation clock on something else that actually has more value.


It's already been stated here many times - according to the agreement - any state that accepts the EPA penalty money CAN NOT deny registration based on any future fix. They will enforce the previous fixes released like the one in January 2015.

http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/crb/vwmdl/proposed-settlement

Volkswagen will complete (1) a Buyback of an Eligible Vehicle within 90 days of an Eligible Owner’s acceptance of Volkswagen’s Buyback offer, (2) a Lease Termination of an Eligible Vehicle within 45 days of an Eligible Lessee’s acceptance of Volkswagen’s Lease Termination offer, and (3) once approved by the EPA/CARB, an Approved Emissions Modification to an Eligible Vehicle within 90 days of an Eligible Owner’s or Eligible Lessee’s acceptance of Volkswagen’s Approved Emissions Modification Offer.

*States that accept money through the EPA/CARB settlement cannot refuse to register your vehicle as a result of the emissions problems at issue in this case*. If any state does not accept money through the EPA/CARB settlement, it will not be bound by these settlements, but it is anticipated that Class Members will be allowed to drive their cars legally through the course of the Class Settlement Program, while they await their Buyback or Approved Emissions Modification.

California has already address this issue through the official DMV website. They will still enforce the previous emission fixes (like the “let’s hide the cheat better” update for the Passat from January 2015) but they will not withhold registrations based on the dieselgate fix via the consent decree.

https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/vw_info/vw_faq.htm

Q: The DMV is not letting me register my VW vehicle. Is this related to the proposed Consent Decree?

A: No. It is a different issue. A 2014-2015 recall for your vehicle was initiated before the June 2016 VW court settlement was reached. The numbers for that recall are 23O6/23N4/23N5. This 2014-2015 recall is emission-related and addresses vehicle durability issues, among other things. But the issues are different than those resolved by the proposed Consent Decree and settlement. This recall is mandatory, so you must get the work done before you can register your vehicle.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Ricky Bobby said:


> According to 4 of my local NJ dealers, nope. Basically whatever incentives VW is offering the month you get a new car. Sign then drive probably coming back. Most I got offered was $500 off MSRP to order an Alltrack (since none with my color combo were in the pipeline) -
> 
> My guess is that the dealers figure they will have a ton of people coming in the door so why should they do anything, "they should be happy with what VW gives them on the buyback" is the attitude I have gotten - none of them have bent over backwards in our scenario to keep a customer in the brand - not that I expect anything out of this world, but a couple of k off a $35k car doesn't seem like much to ask. See my post in the Sportwagen thread "Emissions Recall" for my details - since my X5 has treated me well we are going to BMW, who even told us on a CPO there would be discounts on the asking price and scoffed at what VW was offering us.
> 
> ...


I've sorta gotten the same vibe from the dealers I have felt out about a new VW vehicle. 2 dealers have mentioned "plus your restitution money" ....my restitution money isn't an incentive. My restitution money is just that. 

My local dealer is offering invoice price on any NEW vehicle within their auto group. That doesn't seem to be a bad deal, but basically front loading the depreciation, which is another concern of mine. Will the TDI scandal have a future impact on depreciation of gas vehicles? 

As many other have stated, my TDI drives just fine and I could easily have it paid off in 2-ish years. That said, it does need a DSG service and a few other smaller maintenance item things in the near future, should I decide to keep it and wait for a fix which I will never perform.


----------



## pheethus (Jul 24, 2002)

Ricky Bobby said:


> My guess is that the dealers figure they will have a ton of people coming in the door so why should they do anything, "they should be happy with what VW gives them on the buyback" is the attitude I have gotten - none of them have bent over backwards in our scenario to keep a customer in the brand - not that I expect anything out of this world, but a couple of k off a $35k car doesn't seem like much to ask. See my post in the Sportwagen thread "Emissions Recall" for my details - since my X5 has treated me well we are going to BMW, who even told us on a CPO there would be discounts on the asking price and scoffed at what VW was offering us.


I walked out on a dealer in upstate ny yesterday on a new wolfsburg touareg. I got this same impression that we should be happy with the settlement amount and not much more should be done than the standard offers. The dealership gave me like a couple hundred off what they listed it for online and gave the whole, 'we can do anything more' routine. 

Glad you like your x5, I may be heading that way next.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

You guys should be demanding reparations from VW dealers. You've been enslaved in your TDIs and their emissions are causing genocide.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

firstorbit84 said:


> They said they're holding the cars. I'm assuming they'll just leave em at the back of the lot until all the paperwork goes through.


If VW dealers can do this it makes a lot of sense. Offer to take the car back today, offer a mediocre sales price on a new or used car on the lot and sale goes through. Looks like the only way for a diesel owner to easily get out of their car today if they are really anxious to do it. If I was VW Corporate I would work out a program for the dealers to make it happen as it guarantees the dealer will make a sale, unlike the cars that go through the normal turn in process.



T5 Dave said:


> The big question for those of us who want the fix is how many will *not* go for the buyback even if the fix isn't approved, thus forcing VW to pay even *more* because it won't meet the 85% minimum. So I suspect that there's a possibility that if the fix isn't approved for any generation and if those owners who wanted the fix don't accept the buyback value (like I won't) then VW may have to sweeten the pot and give us more incentive to get us to turn the cars in.
> 
> What forces VW to do this is if CARB and the EPA issues greater penalties if the 85% isn't met, the penalties could run into ~$25k or more per car.
> 
> ...


Towards the end of this program, most VW diesel owners will look at what the market value is on their car and compare it to what VW is offering, realize the VW money is far better and take it. Most think the VW money is already good and a year from now it will look even better.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

aj4066 said:


> I've sorta gotten the same vibe from the dealers I have felt out about a new VW vehicle. 2 dealers have mentioned "plus your restitution money" ....my restitution money isn't an incentive. My restitution money is just that.
> 
> My local dealer is offering invoice price on any NEW vehicle within their auto group. That doesn't seem to be a bad deal, but basically front loading the depreciation, which is another concern of mine. Will the TDI scandal have a future impact on depreciation of gas vehicles?
> 
> As many other have stated, my TDI drives just fine and I could easily have it paid off in 2-ish years. That said, it does need a DSG service and a few other smaller maintenance item things in the near future, should I decide to keep it and wait for a fix which I will never perform *if it ever even comes to fruition and subsequently if it doesn't you still don't have option #2 available in the settlement to collect any sort of cash benefit*



Ultimately in bold is what turned me away too from Option #2 - I even got that one page letter in the mail yesterday, it makes it look in big bold letters that you have TWO choices, wow, great stuff right! Then you notice on the "approved emissions modification+cash" side, it says in little font, "if an approved fix is available" - therein lies my biggest problem, IF - 

Volkswagen has until May 1, 2018 to get a modification approved and the rubber stamp of the EPA for 3 separate generations of vehicles - that's a year and a half - they have gotten none of the 3 generations of engines with the EPA rubber stamp, including the 3.0 TDI's on the SUV's, for 14+ months now - In my mind if you are keeping the car at this point especially if you have a Gen1, you are keeping it to have it bought back later - if you don't drive over 1024 miles a month, then by all means I would definitely just keep it as you'd get the same buyback amount in 1.5 years anyway - unfortunately my wife does about 50-60% more than that mileage a year, so I don't want to go down any more mileage brackets than I need to.

But based on my talkings with dealers and such, they are telling me it will be months before even the miniscule amount of Gen3 2015 and 2016's would get an EPA approval, IF they do - so if you are keeping your car then you are just keeping it because you love it - as it stands now there is no Option #2 if you want to take advantage of some sort of settlement - And there is no way in hell that if the Gen3's get approved that a TDI would come to fruition in the 2017 and 2018 model years, after all of this.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Ricky Bobby said:


> In my mind if you are keeping the car at this point especially if you have a Gen1, you are keeping it to have it bought back later - if you don't drive over 1024 miles a month, then by all means I would definitely just keep it as you'd get the same buyback amount in 1.5 years anyway - unfortunately my wife does about 50-60% more than that mileage a year, so I don't want to go down any more mileage brackets than I need to.


I think you have to look at the amount the buyback number goes down (essentially how the car value is depreciating over time and miles) and see how this value compares to a car of similar value or what you would replace the diesel with. Just saying the value is going over time and miles doesn't make it any worse than every other car that is depreciating with time and miles.

You get rid of the diesel, your wife gets another car and it will also be depreciating, possibly more than the diesel she was driving, I think likely more.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Ricky Bobby said:


> In my mind if you are keeping the car at this point especially if you have a Gen1, you are keeping it to have it bought back later - if you don't drive over 1024 miles a month, then by all means I would definitely just keep it as you'd get the same buyback amount in 1.5 years anyway - unfortunately my wife does about 50-60% more than that mileage a year, so I don't want to go down any more mileage brackets than I need to.


Have you done the math on what it will cost you to keep the car until the last possible moment based on the mileage your wife normally drives? Actually put the pencil to paper? Then compare that to the depreciation and other costs of a new car. I'm pretty sure you will find that keeping the TDI for as long as possible even if there is no fix will be your least expensive option.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

I thought I read somewhere that the only way to NOT get a cash settlement/restitution payment is to NOT perform the fix.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> I thought I read somewhere that the only way to NOT get a cash settlement/restitution payment is to NOT perform the fix.


If you don't perform the fix you wouldn't get the payment but if you have until May 2018 to do it (IF VW even has a fax) or turn the car in, financially your best option is probably to drive the car until the last possible moment. It is almost always financially better to continue to use a well depreciated vehicle than to buy a new one. In this case you are talking about less than 1 cent per mile OVER the 1024mi/mo mileage allowance. So if your wife drives 17,000 miles/year rather than 12,000 miles per year, it costs you only about $45. That is less than the cost of a single tank of diesel.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

aj4066 said:


> I thought I read somewhere that the only way to NOT get a cash settlement/restitution payment is to NOT perform the fix.


This is true - however, there is no fix yet! It doesn't exist! I don't know how hard of a concept this is to understand - 

Any fix proposals for all of the TDI's including 3.0 have been rejected thus far - we are debating a second option (keeping car, fixing, and getting restitution) in theory only currently, and most likely for months or years more - If there had been progress made since September 2015 we may be talking about 2 clear choices - right now, you have 2 options, 1 is to take the buyback (now or later, after June 1 2018 if the clock runs out), or 2 is to do the same thing you've done since September 2015 is wait and see what happens - some people aren't wanting to pay for DSG service or out of warranty repairs, tires, etc on a vehicle that will be bought back anyway.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

dmorrow said:


> I think you have to look at the amount the buyback number goes down (essentially how the car value is depreciating over time and miles) and see how this value compares to a car of similar value or what you would replace the diesel with. Just saying the value is going over time and miles doesn't make it any worse than every other car that is depreciating with time and miles.
> 
> You get rid of the diesel, your wife gets another car and it will also be depreciating, possibly more than the diesel she was driving, I think likely more.


@ricky bobby
this is really important to think about.

you want to get out of the TDI asap, so that you are not affected by going over the mileage brackets. so that you maximize your buyback. i get that.
but note that these brackets are ~$500 for 5000 miles. so you wife is going to be dropping $1000-1500 off your buyback in about a year, using your comment about wife doing 50-60% more than the mileage allotment.

To me, THAT really doesnt sound like a very bad deal at all. what other car can you buy that will only depreciate at 1 cent per mile?

unless it's used or a Toyota Tacoma/FJ/4runner ... I can't think of any.

basically any NEW car you get your wife to replace the TDI will depreciate MUCH more than 1 cent per mile in those first two years of ownership, especially hurtful to overall value since your wife is a high annual mileage driver.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I bought a 2013 Toffee Brown Jetta SE, 2.5 5 speed manual car with 61k to replace my TDI. It's bagged with an exhaust. It was $8200. I'm using the money I'm making on the TDI to pay off the roof loan on my house. 

After I almost got hit twice on I-95 the last week, I feel like the buyback is the best decision to make. Plus I get out of some debt and lower my payment like $50 and 1 less year. 

The reality of this thing being a target to smash on the highway is big right now. :laugh:


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Ricky Bobby said:


> This is true - however, there is no fix yet! It doesn't exist! I don't know how hard of a concept this is to understand -
> 
> Any fix proposals for all of the TDI's including 3.0 have been rejected thus far...


While the words of this are true so far, the consent decree itself includes a general description of what the proposed fixes will be, the validation testing that has to be performed, the expectations for what those tests are to show, and the dates at which they are expected to be officially submitted for approval - and those dates have not yet passed. Extensive validation and durability testing would have been needed, which is why it has taken the amount of time that it has.

I would expect that there will eventually be a fix for all of them except that the first couple years of 4 cylinders will be uneconomical to have the fix done - partly because of the age and probable mileage but also because the LNT was one-piece with the DPF on those (the LNT can't be replaced independently of the DPF without cutting and welding), and there has been no indication of VW offering a free DPF along with the fix.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Ricky Bobby said:


> This is true - however, there is no fix yet! It doesn't exist! I don't know how hard of a concept this is to understand -
> 
> Any fix proposals for all of the TDI's including 3.0 have been rejected thus far - we are debating a second option (keeping car, fixing, and getting restitution) in theory only currently, and most likely for months or years more - If there had been progress made since September 2015 we may be talking about 2 clear choices - right now, you have 2 options, 1 is to take the buyback (now or later, after June 1 2018 if the clock runs out), or 2 is to do the same thing you've done since September 2015 is wait and see what happens - some people aren't wanting to pay for DSG service or out of warranty repairs, tires, etc on a vehicle that will be bought back anyway.


while some of those maintenance items are not cheap, and would suck to spend.

you also have to look at what the overall cost would be.
DSG service, lets get nuts and say its $500.
Tires, lets say another $700.

now. if you keep that TDI for another 2 years. and are going 50-60% over the mileage allowance of 12500mi, that means right around 19000mi/yr. so another 38000mi

i am going to fib the numbers pessimistically to show worst case.

lets calc out having to do the maintenance over 35k miles. and the mileage adjustment at 40k so we hit the following bracket.
that means if you have to do both DSG service and get new tires, you are "out" $1200 @ 35,000mi = 3.4 cents per mile.
add to that the 'lose' for mileage adjustments of $2000 @ 35,000mi = 5.7 cents per mile

that means even performing the maintenance AND driving 60% more than the mileage allowance, the worst case scenario a cost of 9.4 cents per mile.
no additional depreciation hit for new models coming out and making your car 'old'.
no additional depreciation for overall vehicle condition, paint scratches, dings, smells.... etc

Now lets put that 9.4 cents per mile into perspective a little more.

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/auto/aaa-study-cost-owning-car-rising.aspx
Average Cost per mile for car
AAA calculated the average costs for six different car types based on the ownership costs in the study. It found that the average cost of all sedans -- the majority of cars on the road -- is 60.8 cents per mile or $9,122 annually, based on 15,000 miles of driving.

And lets add a couple more expenses to make the math appear more 'fair'... even though any other car you own will have similar insurance and fuel costs.
insurance $100/mo for 24 mo = 6.9 cpm
fuel... lets says you average 35 mpg and diesel costs $3.50/gal @ 40000 miles that means = $4000 or 10 cpm.

so even using worst case scenarios almost everywhere in my math... keeping your TDI for 2 years THEN doing the buy back, even needing maintenance items... you are spending at worst 26.3 cents per mile. compared to national average of 60.8 cents per mile.

even using worst case math all over the place, swapping our the TDI now will cost you twice as much as just keeping it around another 2 years.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

now... with all ^^^^^^^ that fuzzy math said in defensive of keeping the TDI for the next 2 years, THEN doing the buyback.

i think my wife and i have fully decided that we will be doing the buyback asap.
for us it just makes the most sense right now as we have some HUGE house repair/maintenance spending ($55k) to do in the next 1-2 months.
and we have too many cars. 

considering the TDI itself in a bubble. 
having the TDI go away NOW is the best *"TFL approved"* choice, which some of you know i really do try hard to watch the bigger $$ picture on.
but with consideration for a number of other things that are happening in my life right now, its the unfortunate choice we need to make to simplify a couple of other problems we need to address right now.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> while some of those maintenance items are not cheap, and would suck to spend.
> 
> you also have to look at what the overall cost would be.
> DSG service, lets get nuts and say its $500.
> ...


I agree with the above but think it is more complicated than it needs to be. If comparing two similar cars and the diesel is only depreciating a by the "excessive mileage" amount, which is small, it will be very difficult to find another car that depreciates less unless you are getting rid of the newer diesel to get a much older car.

If the diesel is an extra car that isn't needed it always makes financial sense to get rid of it because this is money sitting in the driveway that could be used or invested other places, and requires maintenance and insurance.

Keeping the diesel also comes with somewhat of a "warranty or guarantee" that a similar car may not have. If the car is out of warranty and it suddenly needs a major repair but is still drivable I believe you only have to drive it to the dealer to collect the money and the problem is gone.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

dmorrow said:


> I agree with the above but think it is more complicated than it needs to be. If comparing two similar cars and the diesel is only depreciating a by the "excessive mileage" amount, which is small, it will be very difficult to find another car that depreciates less unless you are getting rid of the newer diesel to get a much older car.
> 
> If the diesel is an extra car that isn't needed it always makes financial sense to get rid of it because this is money sitting in the driveway that could be used or invested other places, and requires maintenance and insurance.
> 
> Keeping the diesel also comes with somewhat of a "warranty or guarantee" that a similar car may not have. If the car is out of warranty and it suddenly needs a major repair but is still drivable I believe you only have to drive it to the dealer to collect the money and the problem is gone.


i agree. that did make it more complex than it needed to be. but some people want to see more hard numbers.

the built in catastrophe warranty isnt something i had quite thought about.
so long as whatever breaks still allows you to drive the VW into the lot, sounds like some added safety net.

the biggest thing that worries me is the lack of exacting clarity on what would happen to a car if it became totaled/salvaged between now and some future buyback date.
the way i read things, the full buyback should be available so long as once totaled i buy the car out, and get it fixed.
but again, its not exactly spelled out that way... so it is a bit of grey area.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

spockcat said:


> Have you done the math on what it will cost you to keep the car until the last possible moment based on the mileage your wife normally drives? Actually put the pencil to paper? Then compare that to the depreciation and other costs of a new car. * I'm pretty sure you will find that keeping the TDI for as long as possible even if there is no fix will be your least expensive optio*n.


I would normally agree with you except I have check engine light on and my DPF light has illuminated a few times now in the last four months. If WE KNEW the fix would be a new DPF and EGR valve including an extended warranty on those items, I might keep it. But, how long will my car stay drive able? And if I have to fix thse items sooner at put out the money, will i get reimbursed later? How long will that take?


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> the biggest thing that worries me is the lack of exacting clarity on what would happen to a car if it became totaled/salvaged between now and some future buyback date.
> the way i read things, the full buyback should be available so long as once totaled i buy the car out, and get it fixed.
> but again, its not exactly spelled out that way... so it is a bit of grey area.


I don't understand this one either but I also have been driving for 30 years and never totaled a car. Also looks like small to medium damage that leaves the car drivable, insurance pays you to fix it but you don't fix gives you the chance to collect even more. I wouldn't do anything on purpose as insurance fraud or hurting someone is possible.



AJB said:


> I would normally agree with you except I have check engine light on and my DPF light has illuminated a few times now in the last four months. If WE KNEW the fix would be a new DPF and EGR valve including an extended warranty on those items, I might keep it. But, how long will my car stay drive able? And if I have to fix thse items sooner at put out the money, will i get reimbursed later? How long will that take?


If it isn't affected performance or driveability and you no longer care about keeping it really long term there isn't much risk with the guaranteed buyback amount and this could start to cause bigger problems soon or possibly way off in the future. I wouldn't put a lot of money into fixing it and I wouldn't do expensive maintenance or at least would extend them out.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AJB said:


> I would normally agree with you except I have check engine light on and my DPF light has illuminated a few times now in the last four months. If WE KNEW the fix would be a new DPF and EGR valve including an extended warranty on those items, I might keep it. But, how long will my car stay drive able? And if I have to fix thse items sooner at put out the money, will i get reimbursed later? How long will that take?


You could always take it in to your dealer and explain to them that you are intending to eventually turn it in but your decision when depends on how much this repair is going to cost and ask for an estimate. An understanding service advisor or service manager would probably be able to help.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

AJB said:


> I would normally agree with you except I have check engine light on and my DPF light has illuminated a few times now in the last four months. If WE KNEW the fix would be a new DPF and EGR valve including an extended warranty on those items, I might keep it. But, how long will my car stay drive able? And if I have to fix thse items sooner at put out the money, will i get reimbursed later? How long will that take?


you should take a look at the court info about the extended warranty that the fix will provide, its really quite extensive.
it could be that your concerns are covered in that part of the docs already.

Here is a bit that i cut out for my own reference, its not the full doc though.
>>>
WARRANTY AND LEMON LAW PROTECTION FOR MODIFIED VEHICLES

IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that Defendant shall provide an Emission Control System warranty and an Engine Long Block warranty (collectively, the “Extended Emissions Warranty”) for each Eligible Vehicle that undergoes an Approved Emissions Modification (“Modified Vehicles”):

A. The Extended Emissions Warranty shall cover all parts and labor, as well as the cost or provision of a loaner vehicle for warranty service lasting longer than 3 hours. Defendant must not impose on consumers any fees or charges, and must pay any fees or charges imposed by Volkswagen Dealers related to the warranty service.

B. The Emissions Control System warranty must cover all components which are replaced as part of the Approved Emissions Modification and any component which can
reasonably be impacted by effects of the Approved Emissions Modification in accordance with Sections 3.9.1 and 4.3.10 of Appendix B of the DOJ Consent Decree, such as increased thermal load or cycling, increased soot load, increased use of EGR, increased DPF regeneration, and increased fuel injection pressure. The Emission Control System warranty shall cover the following parts, as further specified in the applicable Extended Emissions Warranty Parts Coverage List that Volkswagen AG or Audi AG will submit with each emissions modification proposal submitted to EPA/CARB for review and approval of any proposed emissions
modification:

1. The entire exhaust after treatment system, including the DOC, the SCR catalyst (if applicable), the dosing injector and other DEF system components (if applicable), the NOx trap (if applicable), all sensors and actuators, and the exhaust flap; 

2. The entire fuel system, including the fuel pumps, high pressure common rail, fuel injectors, and all sensors and actuators;

3. EGR system including the EGR valve, EGR cooler, EGR filter, all related hoses and pipes, and all sensors and actuators;

4. The turbocharger;

5. The OBD System and any malfunctions detected by the OBD System other than those related to the transmission; and

6. The DPF.

C. The Extended Emissions Warranty shall cover each and every DPF that has failed as a result of implementing any Approved Emissions Modification except as provided in Section 3.9.2 of Appendix B of the DOJ Consent Decree.

D. The Engine Long Block warranty shall cover the engine sub-assembly that consists of the assembled block, crankshaft, cylinder head, camshaft, and valve train.

E. The warranty period for the Extended Emissions Warranty shall be the longer of:
1. Measured from the Eligible Vehicle’s initial sale or lease: (a) for Generation 1 and 2, 10 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first; or (b) for Generation 3, 10 years or 150,000 miles, whichever comes first;

2. Measured from the date and mileage when an Approved Emissions Modification is implemented prior to any resale of the Eligible Vehicle: 4 years or 48,000 miles, whichever comes first; or

3. Measured from the date and mileage of the time of the first resale transaction after an Approved Emissions Modification: 4 years or 48,000 miles, whichever comes first; provided, however, that Subsection E.3 applies only to the first resale transaction after the modification to the first person who in good faith purchases the vehicle for purposes other than resale.
>>>


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

dmorrow said:


> I don't understand this one either but I also have been driving for 30 years and never totaled a car. Also looks like small to medium damage that leaves the car drivable, insurance pays you to fix it but you don't fix gives you the chance to collect even more. I wouldn't do anything on purpose as insurance fraud or hurting someone is possible.


understood, but life happens. i have never personally been in direct action in any way that caused one of my vehicles to get totaled out.

but in a couple of separate instances OTHERS being jerks and re-ending me, running stop signs or just plain Mother Nature (read: goddamn deers!!) have taken cars out while i was doing no wrong.

you never know what will happen. i do my best NOT to compromise and be in a situation that might cause an accident, but i know for sure that there are plenty of drivers out there who are no where near as vigilant as I am while driving.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

My son just got his Final Offer letter from VW. Actually about $400 more than the original estimate. I haven't read the entire 7 page letter yet but it looks promising.


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

spockcat said:


> My son just got his Final Offer letter from VW. Actually about $400 more than the original estimate. I haven't read the entire 7 page letter yet but it looks promising.


It came in the mail? Any electronic notification?


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

spockcat said:


> My son just got his Final Offer letter from VW. Actually about $400 more than the original estimate. I haven't read the entire 7 page letter yet but it looks promising.


Damn that was fast!

Does anyone know if they go by the mileage you entered at the time you started the process, or if they give you a chance to update your mileage again once your docs are accepted? I don't even remember what I put in for mileage way back when, and there's no way to go back and adjust the number.

**Edit** Never mind (found this from an earlier post). I should be good. I have 52,000 miles now.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> I don't understand this one either but I also have been driving for 30 years and never totaled a car.


That is the mentality for why people with families don't pay for life insurance either. "I've been living for 40 years and never once died, why do I need life insurance?"


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Mazda 3s said:


> Damn that was fast!


He put his paperwork in on September 26. So it isn't like he just submitted them a few days ago. 

What seems to be missing in the letter is how long the offer is open for. How long can he hold on to the letter without sending it back but the offer is still valid? What is stated in the timeline is that once he sends his acceptance of the offer back to VW and they notify him to schedule an appointment, he has 90 days in which to do so. 

So if you have submitted your documents but are unsure whether you will take a buyback or a fix, you probably shouldn't send your acceptance back to VW until you have made up your mind.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

spockcat said:


> My son just got his Final Offer letter from VW. Actually about $400 more than the original estimate. I haven't read the entire 7 page letter yet but it looks promising.


good to see that someone with a fairly small 'degree of separation' is confirming that VW is actually moving pretty quickly.

wife and i just got our 2 separate 'hey the class action has been approved' one page mailers yesterday.
moot for us since we are already signed up, submitted, docs with a green check, etc... but still good to see that comms are being sent out like the should be.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

spockcat said:


> He put his paperwork in on September 26. So it isn't like he just submitted them a few days ago.
> 
> What seems to be missing in the letter is how long the offer is open for. How long can he hold on to the letter without sending it back but the offer is still valid? What is stated in the timeline is that once he sends his acceptance of the offer back to VW and they notify him to schedule an appointment, he has 90 days in which to do so.
> 
> So if you have submitted your documents but are unsure whether you will take a buyback or a fix, you probably shouldn't send your acceptance back to VW until you have made up your mind.


Does the paperwork say if we have to mail it back once we get it notarized, or can we scan/upload?


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

^dunhamjr thank you for your well thought out and detailed post - 

I neglected to mention I am not getting my wife into a new vehicle, I don't like to buy new vehicles I would rather take a used/CPO vehicle with an extended warranty or a leftover of sorts, which the TDI was (new 2014 leftover purchased in June 2015) - I like to let time or the first owner take the depreciation hit, and that way we may get a bit more car for the money than trying to get something new off the lot. We don't lease, and we tend to keep our cars, with this Sportwagen intending to keep for a very long time.

With that being said, I am in the first gen of one piece LNT systems which another member alluded to above, that most likely cannot be fixed economically because of the design of the system. This also encompasses about 350k of the total affected vehicles to the best of my knowledge, since VW put the first gen in the Jetta, Sportwagen, A3, Golf, and Passats as well. So I am not going to wait around for my gen to be fixed especially when VW is offering me 10% more than we paid for the vehicle to turn it in. Add that I can probably swap out and get another $500 for the MK7 Austin wheels on it, we should come out positive and have a lot of equity to put down on a vehicle that we would be financing for less amount of time and paid off to keep much sooner.

If my wife had the 3rd gen 2015 Golf Sportwagen she would be keeping it, because I do think those will get fixed. However, they are the smallest amount of affected vehicles (30k or so? I'm guessing), and to my knowledge I did read the deadlines to submit proposals to the EPA, and VW was supposed to submit the proposal for the Gen3 fix by October 14 I believe, and I have not read that they have done so. So if they are running late on submitting the Gen3 fix, IMO best of luck getting to the Gen2's let alone the Gen1's in a timely fashion.

Trust me I love this engine and the vehicle is great, its just been too good to be true, and we'd be fools to be leaving money on the table.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Mazda 3s said:


> Does the paperwork say if we have to mail it back once we get it notarized, or can we scan/upload?


Print it out, get it notarized, and you have the option to mail, fax or upload the notarized document back to VW. I just got mine today as well.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Mazda 3s said:


> Does the paperwork say if we have to mail it back once we get it notarized, or can we scan/upload?


Says upload, fax or mail. It does need to be notarized. Along with their imprint stamps, notaries usually have a rubber stamp they use. So fax or upload shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

spockcat said:


> Says upload, fax or mail. It does need to be notarized. Along with their imprint stamps, notaries usually have a rubber stamp they use. So fax or upload shouldn't be an issue.


:thumbup::thumbup:



AJB said:


> Print it out, get it notarized, and you have the option to mail, fax or upload the notarized document back to VW. I just got mine today as well.


Did you get an email notification when your offer packet was being sent? Or in that case, did you receive any other emails after the original email stating that your docs were accepted?


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Trust me I love this engine and the vehicle is great, its just been too good to be true, and we'd be fools to be leaving money on the table.


ok buy back. thats fine. thats what i am doing. let's talk about that.

new car vs. nearly new doesnt much matter here though.
you are still planning to buy the wife a replacement... honestly the BIGGEST reason i am doing an ASAP buyback? i was dumb enough to buy the replacement car for the wife already. so now its a matter of carrying 2 cars for those 2 years instead of just 1 car. if I hadnt bought the Mazda6 off of Schnelly over the summer, I am quite certain we would be postponing the buyback for at least a year if not the full two.

now its been shown that driving the TDI for the next two years will cost you significant less than buying/running basically any other car... beyond one that is mostly depreciated already, which is NOT where your 1-2 year leftover or CPO car will be... those cars will still have a good amount of depreciation to eat. and aren't you considering a CPO BMW? thats not a cheap car to purchase, which to me throws the COST side of the argument on its ear because over the next two years how can the TDI work out to NOT be cheaper???

yes you will lose a small amount of value to mileage adjustment (aka depreciation), but again. this a VERY small amount compared to the usage gained, and its a completely fixed amount that you know right now EXACTLY how much the car will be worth 24 months from now with 40k more miles on it (or ANY amount really since the VW mileage adjustment table is published public knowledge). unless you lease you cannot know this detail on anything else you will buy.

now the real question.
how is delaying the buyback for two years instead of ASAP leaving money on the table?

IMO being able to drive a car for the next two years are less than half of the typical rate sounds like a great deal if it can work out for you.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Mazda 3s said:


> spockcat said:
> 
> 
> > Says upload, fax or mail. It does need to be notarized. Along with their imprint stamps, notaries usually have a rubber stamp they use. So fax or upload shouldn't be an issue.
> ...



The email had a link to login to the online claims portal to download the offer document.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

AJB said:


> The email had a link to login to the online claims portal to download the offer document.


:beer::beer:


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

AJB said:


> Print it out, get it notarized, and you have the option to mail, fax or upload the notarized document back to VW. I just got mine today as well.


AJ when did you send your docs in for review? That sounds pretty quick, nice!


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

spockcat said:


> He put his paperwork in on September 26. So it isn't like he just submitted them a few days ago.
> 
> What seems to be missing in the letter is how long the offer is open for. How long can he hold on to the letter without sending it back but the offer is still valid? What is stated in the timeline is that once he sends his acceptance of the offer back to VW and they notify him to schedule an appointment, he has 90 days in which to do so.
> 
> So if you have submitted your documents but are unsure whether you will take a buyback or a fix, you probably shouldn't send your acceptance back to VW until you have made up your mind.


I feel neglected. I submitted mine on September 17.


----------



## todcp (Mar 6, 2005)

Just received my email.
"We have reviewed the documents you submitted as part of your claim with reference number . ######, your application contains all of the necessary documentation to determine your eligibility. We are now determining your eligibility and will inform you whether you are eligible to participate in the VW/Audi Diesel Emissions Settlement Program".

Checked online and I now have the green check marks. Yahoo.

By phone, a few days ago, I was told the next step is a document I will have to notarize and return.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

tomski12 said:


> I feel neglected. I submitted mine on September 17.


Maybe if you have a loan it takes longer? My son owns his car outright and is also the sole owner. His docs we pretty clean and straight forward.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> understood, but life happens. i have never personally been in direct action in any way that caused one of my vehicles to get totaled out.
> 
> but in a couple of separate instances OTHERS being jerks and re-ending me, running stop signs or just plain Mother Nature (read: goddamn deers!!) have taken cars out while i was doing no wrong.
> 
> you never know what will happen. i do my best NOT to compromise and be in a situation that might cause an accident, but i know for sure that there are plenty of drivers out there who are no where near as vigilant as I am while driving.





AZGolf said:


> That is the mentality for why people with families don't pay for life insurance either. "I've been living for 40 years and never once died, why do I need life insurance?"


Like any risk you look at worst case scenario and what it would cost you and how likely it is to happen (could be hang gliding, buying risky stock or going on a trip to a foreign country that isn't very safe) . You have a diesel with insurance and it gets totaled, worst case is you lose the difference between what VW was going to give you and what your insurance company will give you. This isn't $50k and unlikely to be an event that would change most people lives. 

If the fear of losing this amount of money is more than you are interested in risking then you shouldn't do it.

Assuming the life insurance analogy is a joke, it is guaranteed you will die and it won't be a $10k loss to your family unless you are close to worthless.


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

dunhamjr said:


> ok buy back. thats fine. thats what i am doing. let's talk about that.
> 
> new car vs. nearly new doesnt much matter here though.
> you are still planning to buy the wife a replacement... honestly the BIGGEST reason i am doing an ASAP buyback? i was dumb enough to buy the replacement car for the wife already. so now its a matter of carrying 2 cars for those 2 years instead of just 1 car. if I hadnt bought the Mazda6 off of Schnelly over the summer, I am quite certain we would be postponing the buyback for at least a year if not the full two.
> ...



Agree with you 100%! I'm keeping my MK7 TDI till the end! I'm also in the Auburn/Kent area!


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> Assuming the life insurance analogy is a joke, it is guaranteed you will die and it won't be a $10k loss to your family *unless you are close to worthless.*


Funny you should mention that. About half of America has zero net wealth.


----------



## fortyfive1911a1 (Aug 25, 2014)

Just got my official offer today $3325 payment for my TDI that I traded in October of 2015. I'll take it! Really does work out pretty close to what I lost in trade due to the scandal. 

Just need to take it to a notary and send it in!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

And the offers keep rolling in.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

In my portal it is now saying document complete. I am assuming I'll receive something soon. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

I uploaded them Sept 25th.


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

gcodori said:


> It's already been stated here many times - according to the agreement - any state that accepts the EPA penalty money CAN NOT deny registration based on any future fix. They will enforce the previous fixes released like the one in January 2015.
> 
> http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/crb/vwmdl/proposed-settlement
> 
> ...



I am not persuaded that your interpretation is correct. 

Does it mean that any state that accepts money cannot refuse to register any Dieselgate VW *in perpetuity,* or merely from now until the expiration of the Settlement at the end of 2018? 

I'm not sure. 

Since it's moot as far as I'm concerned, I have not investigated this in further depth. But there are people for whom this information may be important.


----------



## slvrsrfr (May 11, 2016)

I'm perplexed about why I haven't received an offer. I did everything within an hour of the announcements: submitted the original claim, uploaded the documents, etc. 

My documents were verified on Friday the 30th or before, but still no offer.

Do we receive it in the mail, or via email?


----------



## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

slvrsrfr said:


> I'm perplexed about why I haven't received an offer. I did everything within an hour of the announcements: submitted the original claim, uploaded the documents, etc.
> 
> My documents were verified on Friday the 30th or before, but still no offer.
> 
> Do we receive it in the mail, or via email?


By mail, it needs to be noterized 

My docs were approved yesterday, hope this gets rolling soon due to register the car again next month.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

oldschool eighty8 said:


> By mail, it needs to be noterized
> 
> My docs were approved yesterday, hope this gets rolling soon due to register the car again next month.


According to multiple people here, the offer comes via email and you can print it out.


----------



## Rufus T. Firefly (Jul 2, 2016)

I assume those of us that are doing compensation+fix are at the back of the line. I submitted my docs ages ago and they are still being reviewed. 

And has there been any news on the two-step fix for the gen3 cars?

Finally, assuming the fix happens, is it correct that we can accept the fix, but if we don't like it, we can opt for the buyback later?


----------



## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

Mazda 3s said:


> According to multiple people here, the offer comes via email and you can print it out.


:thumbup:

Hope that's true, would be much faster.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Mazda 3s said:


> According to multiple people here, the offer comes via email and you can print it out.


I hope not, because this would go to my wife's email. She never checks her email. Often she complains she has over 400 emails. Well duh, if you would check it more than once a year this wouldn't happen 
But I've been telling her to check it since we uploaded her documents and every time she says she will, but never does. I found out our our documents were complete by checking the portal.
The JSW developed a leak that I can't find yet, so the interior smells like mildew again. Can't wait to get rid of it. 
I've had old British convertibles that are more water proof than this POS 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

2ohgti said:


> I've had old British convertibles that are more water proof than this POS


Okay, the rest is fine, but I can't imagine it's more leaky than something British with a drop top!

Wait, was it something like a late model Jaguar? If you don't have to assemble the top like a pup tent then it doesn't count!


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Air and water do mix said:


> Okay, the rest is fine, but I can't imagine it's more leaky than something British with a drop top!
> 
> Wait, was it something like a late model Jaguar? If you don't have to assemble the top like a pup tent then it doesn't count!


No Triumphs. I expect better quality from a 2011. My 2008 Rabbit and 2010 GTI never had any leaks. Both have sunroofs too. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

2ohgti said:


> No Triumphs. I expect better quality from a 2011. My 2008 Rabbit and 2010 GTI never had any leaks. Both have sunroofs too.


Mmmmmm, Triumph. :heart: :beer: (Must resist urge to derail thread...)

Hey, I'm not saying it's excusable by any means, I'm just saying old British cars let a lot of water in!


----------



## slvrsrfr (May 11, 2016)

Actually, I got the email that my documents were approved on 10/24, so it's been 12 days since then. 

Anybody else that got their docs approved around then that still hasn't received an offer? Just trying to figure out if I need to call VW claims.

What day did the 10 day countdown begin? Was that 10/25? If so I should get it no later than Wednesday.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

slvrsrfr said:


> Actually, I got the email that my documents were approved on 10/24, so it's been 12 days since then.
> 
> Anybody else that got their docs approved around then that still hasn't received an offer? Just trying to figure out if I need to call VW claims.
> 
> What day did the 10 day countdown begin? Was that 10/25? If so I should get it no later than Wednesday.


My documents were approved 10/13. Don't have my offer yet.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Stop going by the date you entered the docs. Go by the date the case was approved. Also it's been said the offer may take up to 20 days, then it's also possible they really mean business days.

Just be friggen patient people!

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## comma (Jan 16, 2010)

Documents were submitted on the october 7th, reviewed on the 23rd and offer sent on November 5th. Sent the notarized docs back today the 5th so hopefully they will finalize and I can get a date firmed up as my new car arrives around thanksgiving.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

> Documents were submitted on the october 7th, reviewed on the 23rd and offer sent on November 5th. Sent the notarized docs back today the 5th so hopefully they will finalize and I can get a date firmed up as my new car arrives around thanksgiving.


Documents submitted 9/23, still "under review"...WTF?


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

I apologize everyone. I left my account open and this thread open at work and a coworker said i did the buyback and drove home an All-Track. :screwy:

I'm keeping my car till at least 2018, and then doing the buyback.

:facepalm:Sorry everyone... :facepalm:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Saggio44 said:


> Boom! Just got home from trading my TDI in! 30K Buyback!!!
> 
> Loan payed off, and drove home with my new All-Track!


Pics or it didn't happen. 

Seriously, congrats. For those wanting to get rid of theirs, this is excellent news. :beer:


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Saggio44 said:


> Boom! Just got home from trading my TDI in! 30K Buyback!!!
> 
> Loan payed off, and drove home with my new All-Track!


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Saggio44 said:


> Boom! Just got home from trading my TDI in! 30K Buyback!!!
> 
> Loan payed off, and drove home with my new All-Track!


Nice 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Cab you discuss the process? You uploaded you motorized docs to be. Then what? Do you have to pick a date? Do they offer you available dates? Can you change the buyback date? I'm looking at used minivans and so might take me some time to find the one we want to take home.


----------



## Techun (Dec 27, 2006)

Dear tcl, tell me what to think about Audi gas engines now being involved in this.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Techun said:


> Dear tcl, tell me what to think about Audi gas engines now being involved in this.


Found this - article from Friday http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/11/03/vw-emissions-irregularities-gas-mileage-fuel-economy/75101432/

:facepalm: 

They throw around billions like they are up sizing a value meal. 



> Volkswagen Group said Tuesday that *its internal emissions testing has found* "irregularities" in about 800,000 cars worldwide, adding an estimated $2.2 billion to the automaker's tab to make amends for the growing scandal.
> 
> The problem does not involve VW vehicles in the U.S., Volkswagen of America spokesman Mario Guerreiro said.





> Volkswagen said in a statement from Germany that the issue this time is carbon dioxide. Most of the engines involved are diesels, but Guerreiro says some involve a 1.4-liter gas engine with a cylinder-deactivation feature aimed at saving more fuel. It marks the first time that emissions troubles have been mentioned in regard to gas, not just diesel, powerplants.
> 
> The automaker also said it set some gas-mileage estimates too high, which opens yet another avenue for trouble. "It was established that the CO2 levels, and thus the fuel-consumption figures, for some models were set too low during the CO2 certification process," said a Volkswagen spokesman in Germany, Christian Buhlmann.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

dmorrow said:


> Found this - article from Friday http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/11/03/vw-emissions-irregularities-gas-mileage-fuel-economy/75101432/
> 
> :facepalm:
> 
> They throw around billions like they are up sizing a value meal.


Crazy. So do you buy a 1.4 for the next profit? 





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Charles Devine (Aug 22, 2007)

dmorrow said:


> Found this - article from Friday http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...gularities-gas-mileage-fuel-economy/75101432/
> 
> :facepalm:
> 
> They throw around billions like they are up sizing a value meal.


Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that article from 2015?

Anyways, anyone that has had their car bought back that still is looking at this, what was the process? My documents are approved and just awaiting final determination like everyone else but I'm curios of how the process went for those who have been lucky. :thumbup::thumbup:

-Charles


----------



## Dirt Slow (Mar 21, 2014)

Air and water do mix said:


> Mmmmmm, Triumph. :heart: :beer: (Must resist urge to derail thread...)
> 
> Hey, I'm not saying it's excusable by any means, I'm just saying old British cars let a lot of water in!


With VW products and old British Iron, this is a feature-it helps them return to their "heritage" state as Iron oxide in the ground.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Charles Devine said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that article from 2015?
> 
> Anyways, anyone that has had their car bought back that still is looking at this, what was the process? My documents are approved and just awaiting final determination like everyone else but I'm curios of how the process went for those who have been lucky. :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> -Charles


You are correct and my screw up so :facepalm: on me. 

This is an article from today - http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-recovery-dealt-blow-poetsch-140648852.html



> In the U.S., environmental authorities in *California discovered that certain Audi gasoline and diesel models include software that direct the engines to burn less fuel and emit less carbon-dioxide on test stands than on the roads*, Germany’s Bild newspaper reported on Sunday. The *findings made over the summer apply to automatic-transmission cars including the Audi A6 and A8 sedans and the Q5 sport utility vehicle*, the newspaper said. Audi had stopped installing the defeat devices in new vehicles by that time, Bild said.


Is this new news, wrong, or were problems with some of the gas engines reported previously? I also thought NOx was the problem, not CO2 and I don't remember hearing about California finding problems with gasoline engines.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Yea, offers are coming! I personally don't like all this notarizing the offer to send back nonsense. But that's just me. I think most of the cars on the West Coast will be first to go back.


----------



## Techun (Dec 27, 2006)

dmorrow said:


> You are correct and my screw up so :facepalm: on me.
> 
> This is an article from today - http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-recovery-dealt-blow-poetsch-140648852.html
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I understand your question, these are new discoveries


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

.yuk. said:


> Yea, offers are coming! I personally don't like all this notarizing the offer to send back nonsense. But that's just me. I think most of the cars on the West Coast will be first to go back.


Bigger market probably. That and CARB. My sister lives in Ca. and is still waiting for hers to be bought back.


----------



## TheGYVsMPS6 (Sep 26, 2013)

slvrsrfr said:


> Actually, I got the email that my documents were approved on 10/24, so it's been 12 days since then.
> 
> Anybody else that got their docs approved around then that still hasn't received an offer? Just trying to figure out if I need to call VW claims.
> 
> What day did the 10 day countdown begin? Was that 10/25? If so I should get it no later than Wednesday.




I'm right with ya, documents have been approved for almost 2 weeks now. I've received 2 separate letters stating the exact same thing...determing eligibility and whatnot (when I'm already eligible). Pay day can't come quick enough, I've love my 12' Jetta TDi, but its time for it TO GO!! Car is completely paid off, likely will not be buying another VW....unless they're going to put me in a Golf R for dirt cheap, ha!! Keep us posted if and when you receive the offical letter.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Saggio44 said:


> I apologize everyone. I left my account open and this thread open at work and a coworker said i did the buyback and drove home an All-Track. :screwy:
> 
> I'm keeping my car till at least 2018, and then doing the buyback.
> 
> :facepalm:Sorry everyone... :facepalm:


ah, no worries....
could have been worse, could have emailed the boss a resignation letter. :laugh:

sounds like something my team would do to me, and i am the boss.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

Co-worker +1 lol!


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

.yuk. said:


> Yea, offers are coming! I personally don't like all this notarizing the offer to send back nonsense. But that's just me. I think most of the cars on the West Coast will be first to go back.


my wife was complaining about the notary being part of the process as well, but IMO its an easy enough step for VW to require in a further attempt to prevent any sort of claim fraud from happening, and VW becoming liable down the road at some point for not doing their all.

having to get notary services are an annoyance, but in LOTS of cases they can be found for free from your bank, credit union, or maybe even as a benefit from your company or a CC vendor.
so even if annoying, that stamp might end up free.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

TheGYVsMPS6 said:


> I'm right with ya, documents have been approved for almost 2 weeks now. I've received 2 separate letters stating the exact same thing...determing eligibility and whatnot (when I'm already eligible). Pay day can't come quick enough, I've love my 12' Jetta TDi, but its time for it TO GO!! Car is completely paid off, likely will not be buying another VW....unless they're going to put me in a Golf R for dirt cheap, ha!! Keep us posted if and when you receive the offical letter.


Same here. I'm also approaching state inspection (December). Really don't want to pay for that and looking forward in getting something else. 
My wife has kind of made up her mind she wants a manual Jetta new or used, but most are auto. I'm sure good deals will happen on new cars. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TheGYVsMPS6 (Sep 26, 2013)

2ohgti said:


> Same here. I'm also approaching state inspection (December). Really don't want to pay for that and looking forward in getting something else.
> My wife has kind of made up her mind she wants a manual Jetta new or used, but most are auto. I'm sure good deals will happen on new cars.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Glad to hear there's more of us out there who are waiting on the final settlement still! I have a good feeling VW dealerships are going to try to sway us into new vehicles that could potentially be heavily discounted, as I'm sure they'll be expected to by corporate. Your wife could purchase a new Jetta with a manual for probably way under $25K - not sure of your budget or what you're getting back, but it sounds like you'll be in a solid spot if you're considering another VW during pay day


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

biturbowagon said:


> I am not persuaded that your interpretation is correct.
> 
> Does it mean that any state that accepts money cannot refuse to register any Dieselgate VW *in perpetuity,* or merely from now until the expiration of the Settlement at the end of 2018?
> 
> ...


Like most laws/agreements - "it is what it is" - purposely vague and limited in scope. 

I believe that this part was written in to the agreement as to not punish the owners of the cars for VWs issues. I can guarantee you this was done to keep owners from suing the individual states if they decided to deny registrations based on VW cheating. 

*I myself would 100% sue CA if they decided that they were going to take my car or deny me the right to use my property.*

Now don't get me wrong - as a citizen of CA I have every confidence that the state will most likely make life miserable for TDI owners, whether it's some kind of "dirty diesel" fee or some other thing they do OUTSIDE of this agreement. But at least in terms of this agreement (for the next 2 years) they can't do squat.


----------



## GlhTroy (Aug 6, 2013)

Doc approval happened yesterday (Sunday Nov 6th) afternoon. So now I sits and waits with the rest of you. I uploaded my docs on Sept 26th. but started the process a few days after they opened up the portal to submit claims, for those curious. Not sure if when you originally opened your claim has anything to do with it at all, but you never know. 🍺 on a bright note I bought my wife and 2016 Toyota Highlander limited AWD on Saturday since it is her turn for a new car and I will drive her old 2011 SantaFe. So my Christmas shopping is now done😊

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## slvrsrfr (May 11, 2016)

Got my offer package from VW just now. $25k, woot! (We have put only 5k miles/year on the 2011 TDI sportwagen, so we got a bonus for low miles.)

I think we're going to buy a Golf Sportwagen SE with the proceeds. Should only cost us about $4k all in. 

VW is crooked, but so is every other car company. I don't know of another wagon that offers as much for that low of a price.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Techun said:


> I'm not sure I understand your question, these are new discoveries


The article said



> The *findings made over the summer* apply to automatic-transmission cars including the Audi A6 and A8 sedans and the Q5 sport utility vehicle,


so wasn't sure if this was new news or old.


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

dunhamjr said:


> my wife was complaining about the notary being part of the process as well, but IMO its an easy enough step for VW to require in a further attempt to prevent any sort of claim fraud from happening, and VW becoming liable down the road at some point for not doing their all.
> 
> having to get notary services are an annoyance, but in LOTS of cases they can be found for free from your bank, credit union, or maybe even as a benefit from your company or a CC vendor.
> so even if annoying, that stamp might end up free.


Check with your local dealer, the one that we are turning our TDIs into has told us that they have 3 notaries on staff. I also have 3 or 4 coworkers in our office building that are notaries, and yes, check your bank/credit union as well. While annoying, it shouldn't cost you much if anything to have your signature notarized for this process.


----------



## GlhTroy (Aug 6, 2013)

If any of you are in a union with a union hall near by someone in the office should be a notary also. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

Local UPS stores typically have notary services in them; that's where I had some of my mortgage docs signed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## rick8018 (Jan 3, 2001)

Got the papers printed out and notarized today. I'm mailing mine back. I've read of a few guys who had issues uploading and now are working the phone lines trying to get things straightened out. I'm not in much of a hurry, so snail mail for me.


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

dunhamjr said:


> ah, no worries....
> could have been worse, could have emailed the boss a resignation letter. :laugh:
> 
> sounds like something my team would do to me, and i am the boss.



Ha! Yeah, that wouldn't have gone so well. 




MXTHOR3 said:


> Co-worker +1 lol!



I had it coming...


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

I had a chat with my local dealership last evening about a few different cars they have on the lot and the buyback.

I mentioned that I had a lease and wondered how the buyback worked if I decided to keep my car, pending a fix. As they explained it to me, I can buy the car out as my original contract stated and then if a fix doesn't happen, I can then sell it back to VW as if the lease never happened. 

Does that make sense? 

My lease option restitution is something like $3,200- (don't quote me on that number) 
If I buy the car out of lease ($12,000) and then in 6 months I realize that the fix will never happen, I can sell the car back to VW for about $24,000, including restitution. 

Can anyone shed some light on this, or is this true?


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

aj4066 said:


> I had a chat with my local dealership last evening about a few different cars they have on the lot and the buyback.
> 
> I mentioned that I had a lease and wondered how the buyback worked if I decided to keep my car, pending a fix. As they explained it to me, I can buy the car out as my original contract stated and then if a fix doesn't happen, I can then sell it back to VW as if the lease never happened.
> 
> ...


Pretty sure this is wrong. Very wrong. 

Check out the eligibility on the vwcourtsettlement.com site - just run through the questions as if you bought out the lease today... If you previously leased a car that you bought after June 28th 2016 - you are considered only an eligible lessee, not an eligible owner... 

You may want to call in for more info on this one to be sure you aren't getting tossed under the bus... but at first glance, lessees in your position are kinda incentivized to give the car back to VW instead of keeping it...


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

E CODE said:


> Pretty sure this is wrong. Very wrong.
> 
> Check out the eligibility on the vwcourtsettlement.com site - just run through the questions as if you bought out the lease today... If you previously leased a car that you bought after June 28th 2016 - you are considered only an eligible lessee, not an eligible owner...
> 
> You may want to call in for more info on this one to be sure you aren't getting tossed under the bus... but at first glance, lessees in your position are kinda incentivized to give the car back to VW instead of keeping it...


I also think it sounds far too good to be true. I tried to go through the online portal but because I've already put in all of my info, it won't allow me to run through it again. 

And yes, I am incentivized to return the car with the restitution and the ability to leave the lease early without penalty. That does not factor in over mileage, which I am still responsible for. Before this because dieselgate, I had 100% intentions on keeping the car long term. In that regard, I am screwed unless I want to get in another VW. There is 0 incentive to stay with the brand. 

I'm going to sit down with the dealer on Saturday to discuss. We will see what becomes of that.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

My loan paperwork is still "under review" at and I'm just adding more miles on the car -__- Registration and ID have been approved, almost 2 weeks gone on the loan document, still nothing.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

I wish they'd hurry up and find me eligible. My paperwork has been approved since 10/13. My gas tank is almost empty.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

tomski12 said:


> I wish they'd hurry up and find me eligible. My paperwork has been approved since 10/13. My gas tank is almost empty.


the 10/13 date really doesnt matter.
the process was not approved in court until 10/25. that is the date that matters.

now yeah, MAYBE your initial entry gets you ahead of the line in some way.
but from what we have been seeing here for the dates people put in their papers and got their offers... i dont think there is much correlation to an actual spot in line based on date of submission.

i could be wrong. but if i am... why are people who submitted late in october getting offers ahead of people who submitted in mid/end sept?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

dunhamjr said:


> the 10/13 date really doesnt matter.
> the process was not approved in court until 10/25. that is the date that matters.
> 
> now yeah, MAYBE your initial entry gets you ahead of the line in some way.
> ...


Since my son who is in Palo Alto got a very early notice, I guess they are giving people in Silicon Valley top priority since the judge was in San Francisco. * j/k.* I have no idea how they are processing the applications. Although I would imagine if there is more work to do such as contacting loan holders to verify loan info, that would probably slow down the process.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

dunhamjr said:


> the 10/13 date really doesnt matter.
> the process was not approved in court until 10/25. that is the date that matters.
> 
> now yeah, MAYBE your initial entry gets you ahead of the line in some way.
> ...


I was posting more in jest. However, it is a little annoying that my submission was at or near the beginning but I'm getting passed over by others. There might be some plausibility that the California cars are being handled first.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

SixpackMk3 said:


> My loan paperwork is still "under review" at and I'm just adding more miles on the car -__- Registration and ID have been approved, almost 2 weeks gone on the loan document, still nothing.


As long as you're adding miles at or below the allowance given in the settlement, it won't affect your numbers.



tomski12 said:


> I wish they'd hurry up and find me eligible. My paperwork has been approved since 10/13. My gas tank is almost empty.



Hah same here...I've been filling up only about 1/3 a tank at a time. Plan on returning that thing on fumes  TPMS light is on, wiper fluid light is on, gas light is on, headlight warning light is on....damn dash looks like a Christmas tree.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

tomski12 said:


> I was posting more in jest. However, it is a little annoying that my submission was at or near the beginning but I'm getting passed over by others. There might be some plausibility that the California cars are being handled first.


sometimes its hard to tell on the internets. :beer:

as for the timing.
it could just be a matter of doc processing order being randomized to not show favorites. or others may not have had loans... if you did. that's extra time.

also there COULD be some truth to the Cali thing.
maybe there are more agents assigned to clearing Cali buybacks, since cali has tougher restrictions than other states.
or maybe more TDI's were sold in cali to begin with, so more cars means more resources.
also maybe the docs are being split out by region and west coast region has more agents assigned.

dunno.
either way, everyone is still within the designated time frames still, so anyone overly anxious at this point just needs to work on that patience thing.:heart:


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

veedubBiker said:


> As long as you're adding miles at or below the allowance given in the settlement, it won't affect your numbers.
> 
> Hah same here...I've been filling up only about 1/3 a tank at a time. Plan on returning that thing on fumes  TPMS light is on, wiper fluid light is on, gas light is on, headlight warning light is on....damn dash looks like a Christmas tree.



you should check on the resale prices for the interior bits and drive into the dealer with a bare metal interior just sitting there balanced on a milk crate.:laugh:

how can i not find EVEN ONE picture of someone doing this... 
i ain't that ghetto and even i have done it before


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

dunhamjr said:


> you should check on the resale prices for the interior bits and drive into the dealer with a bare metal interior just sitting there balanced on a milk crate.:laugh:
> 
> how can i not find EVEN ONE picture of someone doing this...
> i ain't that ghetto and even i have done it before


 I did take out the floor mats and rear sun shade. Anyone want some TDI monster mats ? Tree fiddy


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Sump said:


> I did take out the floor mats and rear sun shade. Anyone want some TDI monster mats ? Tree fiddy


i will be doing this as well. and the rear cargo protection mat, velcro blocky things too.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

I suspect the aftermarket for OEM and non-OEM parts will become flooded once the BB's actually start. :laugh::laugh:


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

My sister just signed into the portal to check up. It still says that they are reviewing all the completed documents (submitted a long time ago). Step 15 is lit up green if that means anything. She takes care of her car. Just had to put a battery in it. A crack has now started to form in her windshield and she says that it no longer starts first try. I know that it just needs to run but she certainly does not want to dump money into troubleshooting anything on a car that is going away.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

MCTB said:


> My sister just signed into the portal to check up. It still says that they are reviewing all the completed documents (submitted a long time ago). Step 15 is lit up green if that means anything. She takes care of her car. Just had to put a battery in it. A crack has now started to form in her windshield and she says that it no longer starts first try. I know that it just needs to run but she certainly does not want to dump money into troubleshooting anything on a car that is going away.


I've had that green 15 for a few weeks now.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> I suspect the aftermarket for OEM and non-OEM parts will become flooded once the BB's actually start. :laugh::laugh:


^^^THIS....


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

aj4066 said:


> I also think it sounds far too good to be true. I tried to go through the online portal but because I've already put in all of my info, it won't allow me to run through it again.
> 
> And yes, I am incentivized to return the car with the restitution and the ability to leave the lease early without penalty. That does not factor in over mileage, which I am still responsible for. Before this because dieselgate, I had 100% intentions on keeping the car long term. *In that regard, I am screwed unless I want to get in another VW. There is 0 incentive to stay with the brand. *
> 
> I'm going to sit down with the dealer on Saturday to discuss. We will see what becomes of that.


I agree VW really needs to publish some specific TDI discounts to keep customers. Give us a reason to stay with VW for another VW vehicle. But I'm not sure I understand your statement 'Unless I want ot get another VW" What does that matter since there are no specific TDi incentive right now? Mine as well buy another brand at this point.

Honestly I could probably talk my wife into getting a GSW, but you can't get a stick with leatherette and heated seats. So onto minivan we shop....


----------



## todcp (Mar 6, 2005)

When I called they told me about ten days from the day the green checks are done. They said the green is VW internal folks do the first check to green and then an outside firm double checks before the offer goes out.

QUOTE=2ohgti;101051169]Same here. I'm also approaching state inspection (December). Really don't want to pay for that and looking forward in getting something else. 
My wife has kind of made up her mind she wants a manual Jetta new or used, but most are auto. I'm sure good deals will happen on new cars. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

Submitted my docs on 9/21. Up until today, I hadn't seen any changes to "documents received and under review." I called the Claim number this morning and opted for the call-back so I didn't have to wait on hold. I never got a call-back and then this afternoon my docs were approved. So at least something is happening.


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

tomski12 said:


> I wish they'd hurry up and find me eligible. My paperwork has been approved since 10/13. My gas tank is almost empty.


Right there with you. My replacement should be delivered next week. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

AJB said:


> I agree VW really needs to publish some specific TDI discounts to keep customers. Give us a reason to stay with VW for another VW vehicle. But I'm not sure I understand your statement 'Unless I want ot get another VW" What does that matter since there are no specific TDi incentive right now? Mine as well buy another brand at this point.
> 
> Honestly I could probably talk my wife into getting a GSW, but you can't get a stick with leatherette and heated seats. So onto minivan we shop....


I mean I am stuck in the brand unless I want to pay over mileage fees. On the flip side, I have 0 problem hanging onto this car.


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

tomski12 said:


> I wish they'd hurry up and find me eligible. My paperwork has been approved since 10/13. My gas tank is almost empty.


I think we might end up refilling the wagon for some interstate travel this weekend, the Golf was dropped off for storage with the range showing 15 miles to empty :laugh:


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

Will be returned with less than 10 miles till empty, and I'm gonna do a hellacious burnout. Haha


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

NickCarter said:


> Will be returned with less than 10 miles till empty, and I'm gonna do a hellacious burnout. Haha
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I might put another gallon in it.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

my docs were approved 11/2. Hopefully i will have an offer by the end of this week.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

VT1.8T said:


> my docs were approved 11/2. Hopefully i will have an offer by the end of this week.


^^^ ha ha :laugh: :laugh: good luck with that.... many of us are "in front" of you but the 10 days *business days* from 10/25 is here and more of us should start to see offers.

I am on the same tank of diesel since late August.... odd feeling.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

aj4066 said:


> I mean I am stuck in the brand unless I want to pay over mileage fees. On the flip side, I have 0 problem hanging onto this car.


It was my understanding that if you have your leased car returned through the buyback program you did not have to pay for the overage miles?


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

My signed and notarized document has been uploaded. I wonder how long it will take them to review this one document?


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

AJB said:


> It was my understanding that if you have your leased car returned through the buyback program you did not have to pay for the overage miles?


The only thing you are free from is any fees associated with a return. You are still required to pay for over mileage as stated in the lease agreement. You can't just simply walk in and hand them the keys and say I'm done with the lease. 

I've sifted through the online documents and can't find the exact language, but this is as I remember in the handbook they sent. I did read that unless you purchased the lease before June 2016, you can not do what the dealership told me I could do, which is buy the car out of lease and then return it as if I were the owner.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> ^^^ ha ha :laugh: :laugh: good luck with that.... many of us are "in front" of you but the 10 days *business days* from 10/25 is here and more of us should start to see offers.
> 
> I am on the same tank of diesel since late August.... odd feeling.


No big deal if not. Not planning on handing the car over until january or february.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> ^^^ ha ha :laugh: :laugh: good luck with that.... many of us are "in front" of you but the 10 days *business days* from 10/25 is here and more of us should start to see offers.
> 
> I am on the same tank of diesel since late August.... odd feeling.


Yeah that's wishful thinking 

On the same tank of gas since August?!?!

I wish. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

All you guys getting your stuff approved and I'm just over here like









Anyway I was at the dealer this weekend and at least the one I go to didn't really talk much about incentives or discounts to keep customers, but then again I was talking with them about a Golf R lol


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

2ohgti said:


> Yeah that's wishful thinking
> 
> On the same tank of gas since August?!?!
> 
> ...


3rd vehicle now... hence the same tank/fill up


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

TheRealCaptainSlow said:


> All you guys getting your stuff approved and I'm just over here like
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When you go into a non-VW dealer and want to purchase a vehicle do you normally get told to pay MSRP?


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Ricky Bobby said:


> When you go into a non-VW dealer and want to purchase a vehicle do you normally get told to pay MSRP?


MSRP is an asking price.
i have never paid asking price when buying a car.

VW or not, dont consider paying MSRP unless you have money to waste.


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

Ricky Bobby said:


> When you go into a non-VW dealer and want to purchase a vehicle do you normally get told to pay MSRP?


Not sure, I was at a VW dealer but they usually charge msrp on R's since they're low production cars. Same goes for the Toraueggeege

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## PTtdi (Apr 30, 2010)

According to the voice prompt when I called 844-98-claim. They haven't started to schedule appointments for buybacks. My dealer said it probably will take a couple weeks. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

PTtdi said:


> According to the voice prompt when I called 844-98-claim. They haven't started to schedule appointments for buybacks. My dealer said it probably will take a couple weeks.


Appointments have been made and completed according to multiple posts on forums and facebook...


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Appointment emails are going out: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=469304


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Mazda 3s said:


> Appointment emails are going out: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=469304


Uh oh. With Trumplethinskin's inauguration in January and his avowal to eliminate the EPA with the appointment of a climate-change denier for the head of the EPA ( https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trump-picks-top-climate-skeptic-to-lead-epa-transition/ ) will VW be able to weasel out of the buyback deal before I want to do the buyback in September 2018?


----------



## GlhTroy (Aug 6, 2013)

T5 Dave said:


> Uh oh. With Trumplethinskin's inauguration in January and his avowal to eliminate the EPA with the appointment of a climate-change denier for the head of the EPA ( https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trump-picks-top-climate-skeptic-to-lead-epa-transition/ ) will VW be able to weasel out of the buyback deal before I want to do the buyback in September 2018?


The EPA does more than just regulate emissions of cars, factories, etc. So it will not be going anywhere, I highly doubt VW can get out of this. Ever.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

GlhTroy said:


> The EPA does more than just regulate emissions of cars, factories, etc. So it will not be going anywhere, I highly doubt VW can get out of this. Ever.


True, as long as the EPA remains as an entity. Which it may not . . . .


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

T5 Dave said:


> Uh oh. With Trumplethinskin's inauguration in January and his avowal to eliminate the EPA with the appointment of a climate-change denier for the head of the EPA ( https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trump-picks-top-climate-skeptic-to-lead-epa-transition/ ) will VW be able to weasel out of the buyback deal before I want to do the buyback in September 2018?


They settled, so VW is effectively bound by the courts now. They are done. If they'd appealed they could've punted and hoped for something like that, but not now.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

GlhTroy said:


> The EPA does more than just regulate emissions of cars, factories, etc. So it will not be going anywhere, I highly doubt VW can get out of this. Ever.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Yeah I can't see that happening. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## comma (Jan 16, 2010)

Finally was able to schedule an appointment for turn in so on the 29th my Sportwagon gets turned in. Hopefully it's replacement will have arrived at the dealer by then as it's due in port on the 17th. Unfortunately it seems the dealer here is only doing turn in's 1 or 2 days a week judging by the schedule.


----------



## bobt2382 (Jul 29, 2009)

My documents were approved via the portal. Waiting for the paperwork to arrive.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

bobt2382 said:


> My documents were approved via the portal. Waiting for the paperwork to arrive.


I wish you could get the paperwork and make an appointment through the portal. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SoLo2pointO (Jul 12, 2001)

bobt2382 said:


> My documents were approved via the portal. Waiting for the paperwork to arrive.


Mine were approved Nov. 1 thru the portal, got the confirmation email on that date. Am I expecting paperwork to arrive in the mail, or thru the portal? 10 biz days would be today...


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

If Trump gets what he wants, Mexican built VW's won't be coming across the border at the same price they are today. Best way I know to stop cars from being built in Mexico is to put a tarriff on them. Passenger trucks have faced a 25% tariff for many years and notice how many pickup trucks are built outside the U.S.? Are there any?

I also don't see him caring a lot about the diesel gate problems, or even knowing much about it, that this German company where most of the offenders were built in Mexico.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

dmorrow;101120169Passenger trucks have faced a 25% tariff for many years and notice how many pickup trucks are built outside the U.S.? Are there any?.[/QUOTE said:


> GM, Dodge, Toyota all assemble pickups in Mexico. Maybe others as well- thats just off the top of my head. I don't think any are assembled outside of North America, though.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

dmorrow said:


> I also don't see him caring a lot about the diesel gate problems, or even knowing much about it, that this German company where most of the offenders were built in Mexico.


If anything, he might want VW to pay more in fines. I would doubt he would forgive VW even if he doesn't believe in climate change or EPA stuff.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

My documents still haven't been approved. Go figure


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

spockcat said:


> If anything, he might want VW to pay more in fines. I would doubt he would forgive VW even if he doesn't believe in climate change or EPA stuff.


I don't think he will do anything regarding VW or the EPA. I think it's low on his priority list. 
VW is still a German company. If it were a Mexican company, then maybe I could see him pushing back because he wants Mexico to pay for that wall. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

My docs have been approved since the middle of October but no offer made yet. I've called 1-800 number, and the people aren't really helpful. 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

quailallstar said:


> My docs have been approved since the middle of October but no offer made yet. I've called 1-800 number, and the people aren't really helpful.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


Mine too. I uploaded on Sept 17 and mine were approved on Oct. 13. No offer yet.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

tomski12 said:


> Mine too. I uploaded on Sept 17 and mine were approved on Oct. 13. No offer yet.


My timeline is similar. I wonder if it's geography based as someone suggested? I'm in the Midwest.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

I just got the biggest B on the phone, wouldn't help me, borderline rude with me and would not advise any info other than "wait 90 days just like everyone else..." Kim was her name and she was really rude.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

bdc12 said:


> My timeline is similar. I wonder if it's geography based as someone suggested? I'm in the Midwest.


Someone on TDIclub is maintaining a shared google doc tracking users' buyback activity. It's got some interesting graphs, but so far it doesn't seem to indicate any strong trends, at least not geographically. It does seem that paid-off cars seem to be going through more quickly that those with liens or leases against them.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

*Hey, other guys are waiting . . . .*

I submitted my docs back in October and requested a September 2018 return date. I thought I'd at least get them into the system while everything was fresh, then I could wait 22 months and those that really wanted the buyback could get theirs first. I don't need it right away. 

Sure enough, this just came in my inbox "The offer letter for your claim with reference number, xxxxxxxx, for VIN 3VW2A7AU5xxxxxxxx is now available on the Online Claims Portal."

Oh well.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

2ohgti said:


> I don't think he will do anything regarding VW or the EPA. I think it's low on his priority list.
> VW is still a German company. If it were a Mexican company, then maybe I could see him pushing back because he wants Mexico to pay for that wall.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Also stopping a VW buyback would mean the loss of several hundred thousand new car sales that will likely come from the buyback. It is a bit of an economic windfall that VW is paying for.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Woohoo, just got my Offer letter and returned notarized immediately! Now just to get my turn in appointment!

'10 A3 TDI
9/21 Documents Submitted
11/10 Offer Received


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

bdc12 said:


> GM, Dodge, Toyota all assemble pickups in Mexico. Maybe others as well- thats just off the top of my head. I don't think any are assembled outside of North America, though.


My mistake, NAFTA allows trucks built in N. America to come into the U.S. without the 25% tariff. I guess getting rid of NAFTA could change this also.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

T5 Dave said:


> Trumplethinskin


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

automobiliben said:


> Woohoo, just got my Offer letter and returned notarized immediately! Now just to get my turn in appointment!
> 
> '10 A3 TDI
> 9/21 Documents Submitted
> 11/10 Offer Received


:thumbup:

i know my doc date doesnt matter, 9/30. but i have yet to see anything.
we are still within the "have patience" window so i am not concerned.

at this rate we will not be rolled over into the next mileage bracket by the time we have to stop driving the car anyways. (registration expired end of Nov.)


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

Ok, so just to clear things up about the process now after the online docs get approved.... You get an offer in the mail with paperwork to fill out and mail back? Then they give you an appointment time/date?


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Just got off phone with a much more helpful person and "should be seeing it in a few days" ... not holding breath but much more helpful at least.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

SixpackMk3 said:


> Ok, so just to clear things up about the process now after the online docs get approved.... You get an offer in the mail with paperwork to fill out and mail back? Then they give you an appointment time/date?


No, offer is emailed, got mine today. Look back a couple posts!


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

Sorry if I missed this in the last 400+ pages, but what is the difference in *BLUE* checks and *GREEN* checks on the claims portal? I just noticed that mine changed in the last 24 hours. 

...TDI #2 is still showing ye *Royal Blue Eyeball of Impatience* next to the documents.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Green Hare said:


> Sorry if I missed this in the last 400+ pages, but what is the difference in *BLUE* checks and *GREEN* checks on the claims portal? I just noticed that mine changed in the last 24 hours.
> 
> ...TDI #2 is still showing ye *Royal Blue Eyeball of Impatience* next to the documents.


you should compare the text on both of your claims. you will note the difference if you pay attention to the text.

the blue eye is essentially, we have your docs but need to verify them.

the green check basically means, your docs look good... the next step is vw emailing you an offer.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

dunhamjr said:


> you should compare the text on both of your claims. you will note the difference if you pay attention to the text.
> 
> the blue eye is essentially, we have your docs but need to verify them.
> 
> the green check basically means, your docs look good... the next step is vw emailing you and offer.


got our mailing today, needs to be signed and notarized and then scanned/uploaded and also sent back (the notary part)


----------



## bobt2382 (Jul 29, 2009)

SoLo2pointO said:


> Mine were approved Nov. 1 thru the portal, got the confirmation email on that date. Am I expecting paperwork to arrive in the mail, or thru the portal? 10 biz days would be today...


Through the email. Get them notarized and resubmit them. Then wait agin, lol.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

bobt2382 said:


> Through the mail. Get them notarized and return them. Then wait agin, lol.


It is through email, not the regular mail.


----------



## SoLo2pointO (Jul 12, 2001)

automobiliben said:


> No, offer is emailed, got mine today. Look back a couple posts!





bobt2382 said:


> Through the mail. Get them notarized and return them. Then wait agin, lol.


Ok, so the offer is mailed and emailed. Got it.


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

I've talked to them twice, still blue eyes. I did everything as soon as I could yet it seems I'm getting skipped over. GTI will be here in a week or so. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

automobiliben said:


> It is through email, not the regular mail.


Lol this is where I was confused on the "process". Some are saying mail and some are saying email. Got it now though. :thumbup:


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

dunhamjr said:


> you should compare the text on both of your claims. you will note the difference if you pay attention to the text.
> 
> the blue eye is essentially, we have your docs but need to verify them.
> 
> the green check basically means, your docs look good... the next step is vw emailing you an offer.


Thanks, I understand the difference between the eyeball and the check, but I thought I had noticed that there was a blue check after the eyeball and now it's a green check. Whatever, the offer will come, I already have a GLI, and my TDI is sitting in storage at the dealer that's going to do the buyback already.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

The rhyme or reason as to how VW is picking the claims to be reviewed is out in space it seems. My docs still have not been approved but the offers are surely being made. 

I'm buying my replacement car tomorrow so hopefully they get to me soon. I uploaded on 10/4. I waited too long I guess :laugh:


----------



## bad_news (Oct 26, 2006)

.yuk. said:


> The rhyme or reason as to how VW is picking the claims to be reviewed is out in space it seems. My docs still have not been approved but the offers are surely being made.
> 
> I'm buying my replacement car tomorrow so hopefully they get to me soon. I uploaded on 10/4. I waited too long I guess :laugh:



I started the claim in July but didn't get docs uploaded until 10/10. They were approved last Friday on the 4th. Have a deposit on a car and I'd be a lot happier about that if I could get a date to schedule this buyback already.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

.yuk. said:


> The rhyme or reason as to how VW is picking the claims to be reviewed is out in space it seems. My docs still have not been approved but the offers are surely being made.
> 
> I'm buying my replacement car tomorrow so hopefully they get to me soon. I uploaded on 10/4. I waited too long I guess :laugh:



Well whoever is doing it on our claim is doing a good job - we uploaded on 11/1 - docs approved with green check marks yesterday, now waiting on final offer - and we didn't even finance with VW credit.


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

I'm in the same boat. Still getting reviewed. I'm just really hoping my dealer doesn't sell the Golf R they have right now


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Still waiting...

Claim submitted in July, docs uploaded 9/23. No approval yet, no change since 9/23. Guess any hope I had of not paying registration on the car at the end of november are slipping away fast. I will probably non-op it since its sitting in my garage.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Still waiting...
> 
> Claim submitted in January, docs uploaded 9/23. No approval yet, no change since 9/23. Guess any hope I had of not paying registration on the car at the end of november are slipping away fast. I will probably non-op it since its sitting in my garage.


You submitted a claim 11 months ago? Psychic?


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

spockcat said:


> You submitted a claim 11 months ago? Psychic?


D'oh, that's what I get for typing before coffee :laugh:


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

TheRealCaptainSlow said:


> I'm in the same boat. Still getting reviewed. I'm just really hoping my dealer doesn't sell the Golf R they have right now


If you want it, why not buy it now? Finance the whole purchase and have the first payment due in 45 days. Then after you have completed the buyback, do a large payment on the loan. I did this with my GTI. I bought it in august and financed the whole purchase, taxes etc. I've made two payments so far. Even if I wait to do the buyback until February or March, once I turn around and apply all that money to the loan, I'll have about 9 payments left and will have paid a little under $300 in interest total.

If you wait until buybacks really start rolling, you will probably have more people wanting that R.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

VT1.8T said:


> If you want it, why not buy it now? Finance the whole purchase and have the first payment due in 45 days. Then after you have completed the buyback, do a large payment on the loan. I did this with my GTI. I bought it in august and financed the whole purchase, taxes etc. I've made two payments so far. Even if I wait to do the buyback until February or March, once I turn around and apply all that money to the loan, I'll have about 9 payments left and will have paid a little under $300 in interest total.
> 
> If you wait until buybacks really start rolling, you will probably have more people wanting that R.



All depends on your situation. Buy a $36k R and finance the whole thing and you and up with a high payment. Two months from now put your VW Dieselgate money towards the car and your monthly payments don't change (but the car is paid off sooner).


----------



## todcp (Mar 6, 2005)

dmorrow said:


> All depends on your situation. Buy a $36k R and finance the whole thing and you and up with a high payment. Two months from now put your VW Dieselgate money towards the car and your monthly payments don't change (but the car is paid off sooner).


You can also use the cash to do a refinance and lower your payments. My credit union is fine doing so with no charges.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Has anyone returned a car that can speak to the experience?

Just wondering how stripped out my car can be, lol. Trying to get some extra cash out of anything I can since mine is fairly optioned compared to most A3s...


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

VT1.8T said:


> If you want it, why not buy it now? Finance the whole purchase and have the first payment due in 45 days. Then after you have completed the buyback, do a large payment on the loan. I did this with my GTI. I bought it in august and financed the whole purchase, taxes etc. I've made two payments so far. Even if I wait to do the buyback until February or March, once I turn around and apply all that money to the loan, I'll have about 9 payments left and will have paid a little under $300 in interest total.
> 
> If you wait until buybacks really start rolling, you will probably have more people wanting that R.


I would, but I need the money from the car as a down payment, my credit is too crappy to allow me to finance a large amount of money. Plus I don't have anywhere to put a 2nd car.


----------



## danyanda (Sep 21, 2007)

dmorrow said:


> All depends on your situation. Buy a $36k R and finance the whole thing and you and up with a high payment. Two months from now put your VW Dieselgate money towards the car and your monthly payments don't change (but the car is paid off sooner).


I know that I have financing with vw credit and when I pay ahead it lowers my next month's payment. 0% so i'm not sure if that makes a difference but theoretically I could pay 6 months ahead and then pay whatever I wanted until I used up my cushion. I know it won't apply given the need for a down payment but I was just saying.


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

automobiliben said:


> Has anyone returned a car that can speak to the experience?
> 
> Just wondering how stripped out my car can be, lol. Trying to get some extra cash out of anything I can since mine is fairly optioned compared to most A3s...


What's worth keeping on a 6 year old A3?


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

So they have 10 days, but my question is who is holding them to that? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bobt2382 (Jul 29, 2009)

automobiliben said:


> It is through email, not the regular mail.


Thanks everyone. Sorry about that!


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Saggio44 said:


> What's worth keeping on a 6 year old A3?


Not keeping, selling. Titanium package wheels (RS4 style), S-Line seats, etc. It has coilovers too, if I can get somebody to pony up enough money to make it worth removing them I would, but that is a lot of work.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

todcp said:


> You can also use the cash to do a refinance and lower your payments. My credit union is fine doing so with no charges.


As long as VW isn't offering better new car financing than your credit union new car rate and assuming when you refinance with your credit union you end up with a used car rate that is higher than the initial rate (since you are then refinancing your used car)?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

automobiliben said:


> Not keeping, selling. Titanium package wheels (RS4 style), S-Line seats, etc.


Since those are built into the buy back price that would be theft/fraud, don't be fkn shady.




> It has coilovers too, if I can get somebody to pony up enough money to make it worth removing them I would, but that is a lot of work.



Rears are 15 minutes a corner and fronts are 30 with taking them apart to swap upper mounts if you are slow, it would be quicker if doing a swap directly to someone and you didn't need to compress the springs. Just did this last week on my 06 going from my H&Rs to KWs. 

Personally I would take back the parts I own well before I stole Audis parts.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

chris86vw said:


> Since those are built into the buy back price that would be theft/fraud, don't be fkn shady.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I feel the same way. I see this whole thing as Audi purchasing my car from me at a fantastic price. My A3 is going back to them in perfect condition, clean, and all-original. Well, almost original. It's staying de-badged. I know it might be headed straight to the crusher, but my conscience won't allow me to do anything different. I'm treating this transaction the same way as if I were selling the car to my next door neighbor.


----------



## slvrsrfr (May 11, 2016)

Here's what happened to me, curious if anyone else has had same experience.

I got the final offer package. Signed and had it notarized, uploaded through the portal. This was Tuesday of last week. 

This morning I get an email saying my document could not be confirmed because it had missing pages. No detail provided on what pages, just that.

I still had the scanned document that I uploaded on my desktop. I opened it and compared it to the offer letter. It was identical in every way.

So I called the VW support number in the email. They were useless. Said on their end it showed that my documents were just fine. Best she could say is to upload again and wait 3 days to see if they review again. 

I asked to speak to someone that could tell me why the docs were declined, she said this is all the information they had.

I plan to call back during the week in the hopes that someone else can be of more help. 

Frustrating. I'm 100% sure the doc was complete because the one on my desktop that I just checked is the only one I could have uploaded.


----------



## PCs & Petroleum (Oct 8, 2007)

automobiliben said:


> Not keeping, selling. Titanium package wheels (RS4 style), S-Line seats, etc.


How delightfully unethical. After you do this, can I come steal stuff from your house? Seems fair.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Great the catalytic converter light came on  

VW hurry the hell up!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

PCs & Petroleum said:


> How delightfully unethical. After you do this, can I come steal stuff from your house? Seems fair.


There's nothing saying what condition the car has to be in other than it *WAS* able to driven under its own power on the date of the case. The settlement goes as far to say all vehicles are getting the value of the clean NADA retail value regardless of the condition of the vehicle.

So AFAIC if it has 4 wheels and and engine and can start, the rest doesn't matter, and that's that.

VW has no morals and had no problem screwing you, so screw them too.


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

slvrsrfr said:


> Here's what happened to me, curious if anyone else has had same experience.
> 
> I got the final offer package. Signed and had it notarized, uploaded through the portal. This was Tuesday of last week.
> 
> ...


I went out of my way to watermark and encrypt all mine as PDF with no rights other than view only and used obscure ID ( used a global entry ID card ) etc and all mine was approved just fine.


----------



## euro16v (Dec 12, 1999)

I'm putting steelies on my TDI when I sell it back, oem wheels are long gone.


----------



## PCs & Petroleum (Oct 8, 2007)

Aseras said:


> There's nothing saying what condition the car has to be in other than it *WAS* able to driven under its own power on the date of the case. The settlement goes as far to say all vehicles are getting the value of the clean NADA retail value regardless of the condition of the vehicle.
> 
> So AFAIC if it has 4 wheels and and engine and can start, the rest doesn't matter, and that's that.
> 
> VW has no morals and had no problem screwing you, so screw them too.


Right. You didn't like getting treated badly, so reciprocally you're going to treat them badly. That's definitely a way I would tell my children to behave.


----------



## Astronaut3000 (Sep 9, 2002)

slvrsrfr said:


> Here's what happened to me, curious if anyone else has had same experience.
> 
> I got the final offer package. Signed and had it notarized, uploaded through the portal. This was Tuesday of last week.
> This morning I get an email saying my document could not be confirmed because it had missing pages. No detail provided on what pages, just that.
> ...


I had a similar encounter when uploading docs. 2 of 4 were declined. Re-uploaded the exact same docs (as everything was legit, in my name/address, current and paid off)
Call center lady said everything in the new docs looked good and they should be approved quickly. This was a month ago - docs still not approved. Call center knows nothing.
:banghead:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Aseras said:


> So AFAIC if it has 4 wheels and and engine and can start, the rest doesn't matter, and that's that.


False

Buyback amounts do in fact vary by trim level, as in they are paying different amounts because of some parts like those wheels or other pieces that may belong in a package. 

That has nothing to do with the condition of the vehicle nor VW/Audi and their failure to make a complaint vehicle.


----------



## danyanda (Sep 21, 2007)

chris86vw said:


> False
> 
> Buyback amounts do in fact vary by trim level, as in they are paying different amounts because of some parts like those wheels or other pieces that may belong in a package.
> 
> That has nothing to do with the condition of the vehicle nor VW/Audi and their failure to make a complaint vehicle.


I don't really see the moral dilemma here. VW is never going to resell these cars. They are offering a higher buyback on higher trims beause they command a higher value, no cause they care if the parts are there.

Think of it like a developer buying a house to tear down. They'll pay more for a 4 bedroom than they will for a 2 bedroom because it commands a higher value but they do not care if you take out the copper pipes and kitchen cabinets in either case because those things have no value to them. If they have value to the seller then go for it.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

danyanda said:


> VW is never going to resell these cars.


Oh good you should call VW and tell them that since they apparently don't know that's your plan for their cars. :screwy:


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

YAY!! Got our offer letter! Now to get it Notarized and back to VW! It's almost over!


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

chris86vw said:


> False
> 
> Buyback amounts do in fact vary by trim level, as in they are paying different amounts because of some parts like those wheels or other pieces that may belong in a package.
> 
> That has nothing to do with the condition of the vehicle nor VW/Audi and their failure to make a complaint vehicle.


There are offering you what the book says.

If you added an RNS510 and HID to your car, they are NOT going to pay you what the equivalent value for them is. If you have brand new tires, or bald tires, they are not going one way or the other.

There's no negotiation, so turn in the bare minimum.


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

PCs & Petroleum said:


> Right. You didn't like getting treated badly, so reciprocally you're going to treat them badly. That's definitely a way I would tell my children to behave.


If it were a person, I would care.

A faceless mindless corporation behind a facade of lawyers, if they left a loophole, use it, and don't look back. because it'll be one of the few times in life you ever get to come out ahead.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Aseras said:


> If you added an RNS510 and HID to your car, they are NOT going to pay you what the equivalent value for them is.


Yes then you added them put the stock parts back on and send it in stock. No one is saying don't do that. The person who brought up they were going to steal Audis parts off their car though was actually going to leave parts they added and sell off parts they are being paid for from the extra value that trim level added. 





> If you have brand new tires, or bald tires, they are not going one way or the other.


Oh I know, I have tires with under 1000s miles on one car and tires with under 10k on the other. Oh well, I'm getting 18k for a car I had up for sale for ~12k when this crap storm broke and have sat it on for an extra 14 months now. The other will have cost me 3k to drive 24k miles.. they can enjoy their new tires. 




> There's no negotiation, so turn in the bare minimum.


This isn't about negotiation it's about THEFT, as in turning it in BELOW the bare minimum!


There are a lot of scumbags in this tread :thumbdown:


----------



## PCs & Petroleum (Oct 8, 2007)

Aseras said:


> If it were a person, I would care.
> 
> A faceless mindless corporation behind a facade of lawyers, if they left a loophole, use it, and don't look back. because it'll be one of the few times in life you ever get to come out ahead.


LOL, "loophole". You are well aware that it's not a loophole and that you are stealing. You just feel wronged enough by the situation to act unethically and illegally.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Saggio44 said:


> What's worth keeping on a 6 year old A3?


Plenty.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> Yes then you added them put the stock parts back on and send it in stock. No one is saying don't do that. The person who brought up they were going to steal Audis parts off their car though was actually going to leave parts they added and sell off parts they are being paid for from the extra value that trim level added.
> 
> Oh I know, I have tires with under 1000s miles on one car and tires with under 10k on the other. Oh well, I'm getting 18k for a car I had up for sale for ~12k when this crap storm broke and have sat it on for an extra 14 months now. The other will have cost me 3k to drive 24k miles.. they can enjoy their new tires.
> 
> ...


Has nothing to do with theft. Getting paid KBB trade in value for a car is getting ripped off. VW knows the value of the car is in the tank, so getting trade in value is actually better than one could get your own since know when will buy these cars anyway. VW knows this, and so does everyone else. 

And since the don't add value for the package levels or OEM rims, I see know harm in turning the car in with steelies. 

Anyone want to buy a used set of Monster mats (tdi branded) or brand new OEM floor mats from my car, never used?


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

This thread just got way better, glad I asked this question.

Somebody please point out to me where in the rules this would be considered "stealing"? Let alone where VW/Audi inspected my car to determine current condition.


----------



## danyanda (Sep 21, 2007)

chris86vw said:


> Oh good you should call VW and tell them that since they apparently don't know that's your plan for their cars. :screwy:


Come on back here on December 31, 2018 and make a case that IF a fix ever gets approved, and I doubt it will, that VW is going to put any amount of money into fixing what in my case will be a 9 model year old car with 120k+ miles to make it EVEN LEGAL TO SELL. It is beyond optimistic to think that. If I am proven wrong in two years and VW is running a special on 8-10 year old refurbished diesels I will be the first one to man up and admit it. Will you? I will call it now that the best case scenario for any of the 1st gen cars is being permenantly disabled and then sold wholesale to a recycler who MAY wind up repurposing a small percentage of them overseas if that is even economically viable.

This is not some twisted way of justifying stripping a car, it is a pretty educated and informed theory that our cars are going to be nothing but a write off. Hell, those get turned in early will probably be rotted to nothing internally from sitting with fuel in them for a year or two if, and again I say IF, a fix ever comes about. There is a better case that stripping the car and reusing or selling the parts is actually the more environmentally conscious and economically prudent (big scale, not just personal) thing to do than there is that pulling some items of value is somehow stealing from VW.

Beyond that, VW made the offer for the car regardless of condition. Doesn't really matter how that condition came about. If you bought a car and didn't service it properly and let your dogs **** up the interior are you stealing from VW since I took care of mine and the interior is nice and the service is up to date? What if you just stopped taking care of it after dieselgate? What if you blew a tire so you just turned it in on the spare? What if it's rusted out from road salt? Is the guy selling his floor mats stealing while the guy who threw his out cause a drunk pissed on them not stealing?


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

danyanda, I like you! A glass half full kinda guy! Anyone thinking VW can throw some foofy dust at the early cars to make them meet emissions is a fool! Aftertreatment is only one part of the equation, the performance hardware (injectors, cam, pistons and turbo) of the car all play into the solution.


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

I remember reading an article (on some website) that VW was expected to announce their plan for fixing the early US 2.0L TDIs sometime in the middle of this month (November). According to the article, this was not an imposed deadline - it was an estimate of when the engineers would have a proposed solution, which would still need regulatory review and approval.

Has this announcement been made? I have not seen any reporting on it. Or was that article just another piece of speculative BS? Sorry, I did not keep the link.


----------



## ticketed2much (Feb 18, 2012)

julianv said:


> I remember reading an article (on some website) that VW was expected to announce their plan for fixing the early US 2.0L TDIs sometime in the middle of this month (November). According to the article, this was not an imposed deadline - it was an estimate of when the engineers would have a proposed solution, which would still need regulatory review and approval.
> 
> Has this announcement been made? I have not seen any reporting on it. Or was that article just another piece of speculative BS? Sorry, I did not keep the link.


If I were VW I'd wait till early next year when Trump shakes up the EPA. It may be a lot easier to get something through then, the current EPA seems hell bent on getting these cars scrapped.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

julianv said:


> I remember reading an article (on some website) that VW was expected to announce their plan for fixing the early US 2.0L TDIs sometime in the middle of this month (November). According to the article, this was not an imposed deadline - it was an estimate of when the engineers would have a proposed solution, which would still need regulatory review and approval.Has this announcement been made? I have not seen any reporting on it. Or was that article just another piece of speculative BS? Sorry, I did not keep the link.



There will never be an approved fix. I believe if there could have been a way to make a legal diesel, VW would have done it from day 1 and never gotten themselves into this mess. 

On another note, Im waiting on my official offer, documents approved on Thursday. Anyone know what time the average time frame in between approval and offer dates?


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

So what is everyone's buyback date? I'd like to get some feedback on the process. I have mine scheduled. 

Also seems that some dealers only have certain days and time slots available. My local dealer only has Thursday mornings at 10:30 and 11:am available on the online calendar for at least 6 months out. I decided to pick a different dealer that was not as local and they on show Saturday afternoon available so I picked them because it was more convenient for me instead of trying to take off work to turn in my car.

You would think that will all these cars to turn in, they would have more time slots available.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

ticketed2much said:


> If I were VW I'd wait till early next year when Trump shakes up the EPA. It may be a lot easier to get something through then, the current EPA seems hell bent on getting these cars scrapped.


Unlikely the current President is going to help out the German car company who built most of the violators in Mexico. VW broke the law, got caught, admitted it, came to agreement with government and the best thing for the U.S. economy and the government hassle is to just move ahead with what has been agreed to.

Either the cars get crushed at VW's expense or they get fixed at VW's expense (both are good for our economy and U.S. manufacturers), with a ton of things Trump would like to do I don't see Trump going out of his way to change this issue.


----------



## jgarcia65 (Sep 29, 2009)

I just realized that i filled out the Financial Consent with incorrect info. 
Is there anyway to remove the document or do i just wait for them to send it back and upload a new doc.

Update::

After 40 minutes on hold, I was told that i must wait to have the document reviewed and denied and then i can resubmit the new doc. 
Oh Joy.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Just schedule the appointment to turn mine in, 12/2 at 1pm. Would appear to be the earliest available for Audi's in the Atlanta area.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AJB said:


> Has nothing to do with theft. Getting paid KBB trade in value for a car is getting ripped off.



Who is only getting KBB?

I'm getting 50% more than my one car was for sale for privately and 100% more than dealer offers were at the time this broke sept of 2015.

Not only are the values actually higher than trade in but you are getting additional money.




> And since the don't add value for the package levels or OEM rims, I see know harm in turning the car in with steelies.



The different packages and trim levels ARE being paid differently in most cases. This person is not taking off random oem rims they installed they are taking off the ones that CAME with the car and the package they are being reimbursed for.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

automobiliben said:


> This thread just got way better, glad I asked this question.


Yes it is nice when scumbags out themselves.



> Somebody please point out to me where in the rules this would be considered "stealing"?


Sure no problem

https://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/att._1a_-_buyback_modification_table.pdf

You are being paid an additional ~900-2200 depending on year and packages that you listed you planned to remove included parts from. .

You are being reimbursed a value based on those parts being there.


Pretty simple really.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

danyanda said:


> Come on back here on December 31, 2018 and make a case that IF a fix ever gets approved, and I doubt it will, that VW is going to put any amount of money into fixing what in my case will be a 9 model year old car with 120k+ miles to make it EVEN LEGAL TO SELL.


Yes that is right 100% of the vehicles are 9 model years old with 6 figure odometer readings, none of them are flawless low miles bought 45 days before this broke like one of mine.. all of them are worth just throwing billions away for. 

There is also the fact that VW is spending the time and money testing and submitting fixes, they don't have to do that, they could have just walked away and offered to buy them all back.

Evidence is NOT on your side.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> Who is only getting KBB?
> 
> I'm getting 50% more than my one car was for sale for privately and 100% more than dealer offers were at the time this broke sept of 2015.
> 
> ...


Ugh..Not this again. I don't count the restitution amount because you would get that amount anyway if you keep the car. So you aren't really getting anymore for your car than dealer trade in. it says so right in the VW legal documents. I'm getting about 2k less than my car would have been worth before sept. 15h selling to a private party.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

chris86vw said:


> Yes it is nice when scumbags out themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Read Point #3, "Factory Installed Options".

Makes no mention of current condition of the car.

Nice to see you have taken to name calling, lol. Keep trying though! 

Only verbiage that comes close to mentioning condition is that the car has to drive in under the power of the TDI engine. Hell, doesn't even say it has to be under all 4 cylinders power.

You probably think VW a victim of the "big bad" EPA don't you?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

automobiliben said:


> Read Point #3, "Factory Installed Options".
> 
> Makes no mention of current condition of the car.
> 
> ...


So the seats in your car weren't factory installed? 



automobiliben said:


> Not keeping, selling. Titanium package wheels (RS4 style), S-Line seats, etc. It has coilovers too, if I can get somebody to pony up enough money to make it worth removing them I would, but that is a lot of work.


----------



## danyanda (Sep 21, 2007)

chris86vw said:


> Yes that is right 100% of the vehicles are 9 model years old with 6 figure odometer readings, none of them are flawless low miles bought 45 days before this broke like one of mine.. all of them are worth just throwing billions away for.
> 
> There is also the fact that VW is spending the time and money testing and submitting fixes, they don't have to do that, they could have just walked away and offered to buy them all back.
> 
> Evidence is NOT on your side.


It 100% does not matter if you bought your car 20 minutes before dieselgate broke and are returning it with nothing more than an engine. The only reason that they are being bought back is to get them off the road and the only reason a fix is even being floated is for consumer protection purposes. Ditto for the added value in trims. The EPA is making them attempt to fix the cars to avoid strongarming owners into having to return their cars. Like others have stated, if it was in any way possible to fix these cars without giving up performance or economy or reliability VW would have done it long ago and would still be selling new diesels. Not happening.

VW is absolutely NOT giving more money for higher trim levels or lower miles or newer cars because they are going to resell them or profit from them in any way. They are offering more money because that is part of the agreement they made with the E PA to fix the problem without screwing the consumer. 

Condition is not a factor on returns because it doesn't matter to them in the slightest. And again, if I lost or broke parts of my car and didn't replace them or replaced them with cheaper parts that doesn't make me a thief but replacing those parts since I am trading in with no restrictions on condition does make me a thief? Your logic does not hold. This is not ripping someone off, and it is not even sticking it to a big corporation by doing something shady. Condition does not matter, regardless of how that condition came about. Im going back to my tear down analogy. A developer buying your house as a tear down will definitely pay more for your bigger house because it has more value but they dont care and there is neither crime nor immoral action in stripping it of anything of value. Your 45 day old car is getting scrapped like everyone else's will be, even if they do come up with a fix.

I will be ecstatic if VW starts selling "fixed" diesels, and i will happily come into this thread and apologize if they somehow try to resell trade ins, all of which will most likely be old enough to not be eligible for CPO, but it won't happen. I doubt they'll even bother trying to sell the hundreds or thousands of BRAND NEW, UNSOLD vehicles that were on lots or in port when this thing broke, but those would all have to go first before a bunch of 2+ year old used ones.

But let me humor you for a bit... My original wheels are gone. I replaced them soon after I bought the car, so when I turn it in the two options I have are the more expensive GTI wheels on it now (with some curb rash and one damaged stem) or a set of 15" steels with no TPMS and worn out tires. Is it stealing for me to keep the nicer wheels and return it on steelies? My original radio died and I replaced it with a Chinese OEM radio. Original radio is in the trash so is it stealing for me to keep the working radio when I trade it in? Is it stealing for me to keep the floor mats or cargo blocks to sell them but not stealing if I lost or ruined those things years ago? Is it stealing to forego maintenance on a car I'm getting rid of? Should I detail it before I turn it in or can I throw my McDonald's wrappers in the back and trade it that way?

I've defended my position. If you are still dead set on believing that pulling anything of value off the car is stealing then you are certainly free to feel that way but I do not feel a bit of guilt about it, not because I think I can get away with it or two wrongs make a right but because I truly don't believe there is anything morally wrong with stripping the car to nothing.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

spockcat said:


> So the seats in your car weren't factory installed?


What? Read back a couple posts then try again...


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

PCs & Petroleum said:


> illegally.


This word does not mean what you think it means.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

automobiliben said:


> What? Read back a couple posts then try again...


I read the below post that you intended to sell the wheels, seats and coilovers off your car. And as I asked, weren't the seats factory installed - ie. part of the option package Audi is paying you extra for? I can understand that you might have installed the coilovers and perhaps the wheels. But did you put the seats in after the purchase too?




automobiliben said:


> Not keeping, selling. Titanium package wheels (RS4 style), S-Line seats, etc. It has coilovers too, if I can get somebody to pony up enough money to make it worth removing them I would, but that is a lot of work.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

aj4066 said:


> There will never be an approved fix. I believe if there could have been a way to make a legal diesel, VW would have done it from day 1 and never gotten themselves into this mess.


The consent decree includes the criteria that VW's fix has to meet. For the gen 1 and gen 2 cars, this fix is well short of full unquestioned compliance but it is an 80% - 90% reduction in NOx from the current condition. Remember, EPA and CARB agreed to the lesser not-quite-compliant fix criteria, presumably in the interest of potentially not forcing VW to scrap every single one of them. The consent decree also includes a general description of what the proposed fix was expected to be. (New LNT catalyst, new oxygen sensor, reflashed ECU) The dealer training/informational video that someone tracked down recently is consistent with this still being the plan for the gen 1 cars.

None of this would have been pulled from thin air; what it means is that VW developed improved components and systems and programming and made it the best they could, and it's pretty likely that the less-stringent emission criteria are based roughly on the best that could be achieved, even if that was short of full unquestioned compliance.

The delay between the consent decree and November 11th (last Friday) would have been to give time for VW to complete the validation testing ... a 120,000 mile durability test doesn't happen overnight ... it takes several months JUST for the testing time and that's assuming nothing goes wrong.

The submission of the official fix documentation would have been to CARB and EPA ... not necessarily for public consumption. CARB and EPA have time allotted to respond, which puts this likely into Jan-Feb 2017 before there is an official, approved fix in place for the gen 1 cars.

The earliest gen 1 cars had the DPF as one piece with the LNT (they were welded together) and there has been no discussion of replacing DPFs as part of this. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if VW throws in the towel on the 2009 models that had this arrangement because those are going to be 8 or 9 year old cars by the time this is done, mostly with high mileage, and probably not worth the cost of the fix plus the mandatory 4 yr 48,000 mile warranty on the engine and the DPF and the HPFP that they're going to have to provide.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

automobiliben said:


> Just schedule the appointment to turn mine in, 12/2 at 1pm. Would appear to be the earliest available for Audi's in the Atlanta area.


How long was it between document approval and turn in date?


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

Got my offer letter yesterday. I checked what I uploaded about 45 times. My offer letter has my name on it twice instead of my wife and I. 

Called and got right through and the supervisor said if it's OK the check would just be in my name. Which I promptly told the wife I'm going to go buy a Judd V8 for the M3.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

aj4066 said:


> How long was it between document approval and turn in date?


Check back a couple posts, I posted that all up.


----------



## slvrsrfr (May 11, 2016)

I posted previously that my signed and notarized offer letter had been rejected because of "missing pages".

I called VW over the weekend, and the rep I spoke with looked at my uploaded docs and said she couldn't see any reason why they'd be rejected. All 7 pages were included, and the form was properly notarized. She said upload again and wait "3 days" to see what happens.

Well, I got another email from VW this morning saying the docs were rejected again. Same reason with no detail, "missing pages".

I called the service # again. This time, the rep directed me to an obscure page on www.vwcourtsettlement.com (Documents > Forms > CA Acknowledgment). She said any notarized offer letter in CA must also be accompanied by a notarized copy of this "CA Acknowledgment" form. 

I asked her how the f$#k I was supposed to know that, since the offer letter made no mention of this form, nor did the two emails which rejected my documents. 

She said "Well, your notary should know that. It's the law in CA." 

Um, I just had documents notarized for another purpose a few days ago and that form was not required.

So now I have to make a second, inconvenient trip to the notary to get this form notarized. 

One might think that VW is purposely making this difficult. I'm getting increasingly fed up with them, especially with the recent revelation that they are probably cheating on v6 gasoline vehicles as well.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

danyanda said:


> It 100% does not matter if you bought your car 20 minutes before dieselgate broke and are returning it with nothing more than an engine.


Actually it does, going back to your rant about the values my 45 day old car was valued at 10k less than I paid for it, so those of us with newer vehicles are actually being hit harder. Still it is a VERY fair price. It will have ended up costing me about 150 bucks a month to rent a brand new fully loaded GSW. 





> VW is absolutely NOT giving more money for higher trim levels or lower miles or newer cars because they are going to resell them or profit from them in any way.


What they plan to do with them has nothing to do with this at all.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AJB said:


> Ugh..Not this again. I don't count the restitution amount because you would get that amount anyway if you keep the car. So you aren't really getting anymore for your car than dealer trade in. it says so right in the VW legal documents. I'm getting about 2k less than my car would have been worth before sept. 15h selling to a private party.


Yes this again, those of us who actually knew what the cars were worth at the time are aware that even ignoring the restitution they are paying significantly more than what trade in was. Again I was offered about 9k trade in for my car when this broke, they are giving me I think about 13 for it plus the restitution. That is more than I expected to get selling it myself. 

And sorry but the 2011 JSW has the highest jump and most uneven (in your favor) value of any vehicle being bought out, you were not getting 2k more than they are paying you since they are already giving about 3k more then what they were ACTUALLY selling for at the time. Not being aware of the actual value of the car at the time of this broke doesn't make their valuation wrong, just yours.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

slvrsrfr said:


> One might think that VW is purposely making this difficult.


Yes one might think that, if this wasn't a private firm that all parties agreed to use to handle this in order to prevent VW from trying to make it difficult.

Also it is in VWs financial interest to make this as lest troublesome as possible. They have billions tied into an escrow account that can only be freed up and go back into their general accounts once they hit milestones of vehicles being bought back or repaired. The quicker VW handles this the sooner they get their money back.


----------



## Beaumont Livingston (Nov 14, 2016)

I was thinking about selling my 2011 JSW a couple of weeks before the scandal broke and KBB listed my car as worth $13,500 in excellent condition FWIW. Also, as I'm sure has been mentioned earlier make sure you include all 7 pages of the offer letter and not just the signed pages, not doing that cost me a few days.


----------



## slvrsrfr (May 11, 2016)

chris86vw said:


> Yes one might think that, if this wasn't a private firm that all parties agreed to use to handle this in order to prevent VW from trying to make it difficult.
> 
> Also it is in VWs financial interest to make this as lest troublesome as possible. They have billions tied into an escrow account that can only be freed up and go back into their general accounts once they hit milestones of vehicles being bought back or repaired. The quicker VW handles this the sooner they get their money back.


Well, someone is incompetent—whether VW or this firm. You cannot expect consumers to know that this additional form is required, and it was news to my notary as well (as I said, this form was NOT required in recent estate planning documents that I just had notarized in CA).


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

slvrsrfr said:


> Well, someone is incompetent—.


I don't disagree, just pointing out why it is silly to think that VW would be intentionally trying to delay buy backs by hiding stuff. It doesn't benefit them.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

automobiliben said:


> Check back a couple posts, I posted that all up.





automobiliben said:


> Woohoo, just got my Offer letter and returned notarized immediately! Now just to get my turn in appointment!
> 
> '10 A3 TDI
> 9/21 Documents Submitted
> 11/10 Offer Received


:thumbup:


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Beaumont Livingston said:


> I was thinking about selling my 2011 JSW a couple of weeks before the scandal broke and KBB listed my car as worth $13,500 in excellent condition FWIW. Also, as I'm sure has been mentioned earlier make sure you include all 7 pages of the offer letter and not just the signed pages, not doing that cost me a few days.


^^This.

Chris86vw... VW only paying me 12k. Listen every market is different up here in the northeast. 13.5k was the avg private party asking price for my car back in august. Dealers were even more. So 12k for my JSW is "not making me whole"


----------



## slvrsrfr (May 11, 2016)

Just curious if anyone else in CA has had their notarized documents declined because of "missing pages"?

(See my previous post about this.)


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AJB said:


> ^^This.
> 
> Chris86vw... VW only paying me 12k. Listen every market is different up here in the northeast. 13.5k was the avg private party asking price for my car back in august. Dealers were even more. So 12k for my JSW is "not making me whole"


How many miles on your 2011 JSW? My son is getting $18,250 ($12,750 for the vehicle and $5500 restitution) for his 2010. And do you own it outright?


----------



## Grip Driver (Feb 16, 1999)

slvrsrfr said:


> Just curious if anyone else in CA has had their notarized documents declined because of "missing pages"?
> 
> (See my previous post about this.)


yup, got that same message today


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

When uploading the signed/notarized offer the website says shorter appointment wait times if you select ETF with instructions to be emailed after acceptance. 

I was originally going to do check but when you pick that option it says to confirm mailing address of said check, I had thought they may give them to you at the time of your appointment but I guess not. So I selected ETF


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

spockcat said:


> How many miles on your 2011 JSW? My son is getting $18,250 ($12,750 for the vehicle and $5500 restitution) for his 2010. And do you own it outright?


Just under 100k. We are driving it less now to hopefully stay under before the buyback date we scheduled.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

GoFaster said:


> The consent decree includes the criteria that VW's fix has to meet. For the gen 1 and gen 2 cars, this fix is well short of full unquestioned compliance but it is an 80% - 90% reduction in NOx from the current condition. Remember, EPA and CARB agreed to the lesser not-quite-compliant fix criteria, presumably in the interest of potentially not forcing VW to scrap every single one of them. The consent decree also includes a general description of what the proposed fix was expected to be. (New LNT catalyst, new oxygen sensor, reflashed ECU) The dealer training/informational video that someone tracked down recently is consistent with this still being the plan for the gen 1 cars.
> 
> None of this would have been pulled from thin air; what it means is that VW developed improved components and systems and programming and made it the best they could, and it's pretty likely that the less-stringent emission criteria are based roughly on the best that could be achieved, even if that was short of full unquestioned compliance.
> 
> ...



Considering that there are 300k+ of these Gen1 cars on the road I would imagine this would be the toughest, most amount of vehicles and toughest to get close to compliance.

Also, I was under the impression that the emissions components would have to last 120k miles on the gen 1 models and the Gen 3 models are a 150k miles of emissions compliance? So I was under the impression that it would be a lot more than 48k miles, if the fix ever comes to actual fruition for the first gen, which I'm very skeptical of - they yes I'm sure have a plan, but it needs the EPA's rubber stamp to actually be an option - Option 2 to "fix" your car is just in theory currently.


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

Seriously wish this process made sense. Uploaded my docs mid September and still no change. Is there no order? Seems there are quite a few people with dates scheduled already. I've contacted them numerous times. Only in a hurry because my GTI will be here next week. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

NickCarter said:


> Seriously wish this process made sense. Uploaded my docs mid September and still no change. Is there no order? Seems there are quite a few people with dates scheduled already. I've contacted them numerous times. Only in a hurry because my GTI will be here next week.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Is your car still financed or leased? I thought this was interesting from the Sportwagen forum.



mrsgreeneyes said:


> Someone over on /r/TDI put together a great spreadsheet where you can add your info and analyze processing trends. Right now - of the data submitted - 53% of claimants who have paid off their car have been sent an offer letter, as compared to 2% with a VW credit loan and 3% with a privately financed loan.
> 
> View spreadsheet


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

Sump said:


> Is your car still financed or leased? I thought this was interesting from the Sportwagen forum.


Yeah it's financed through VW. You would think that would make it quicker to verify, and the fact that I have a deposit down on an ordered car. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## G60ING (Jun 27, 2000)

So condition doesn't matter? What about a dieselgate Tdi that was recently totaled by the insurance company? If he can drive it in there he gets the same payout?


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

G60ING said:


> So condition doesn't matter? What about a dieselgate Tdi that was recently totaled by the insurance company? If he can drive it in there he gets the same payout?


Not if it was actually totaled by the insurance company. And that is an entirely different beast, depending on the date it was totaled.


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

NickCarter said:


> Yeah it's financed through VW. You would think that would make it quicker to verify, and the fact that I have a deposit down on an ordered car.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


VW is still making interest on their loans as long as they don't buy back their loaned cars. I wanted to short VW the interest since the announcement but at this point I just want it gone before the snow flies.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## shuko (Jul 24, 2007)

So it may have been covered in the last 400 pages of this thread... but reading the terms, as long as you're bringing back the car under 2.0 TDI power, you get the full amount (less mileage.)

So door dings, cracked windows, aftermarket mods don't matter?

Could you literally gut the interior and glass and drive the car into the dealer sitting on a bucket? I'm sure a lot of people would be interested in a seat swap from a '15 golf TDI for their MKIII project...

I don't plan on doing this, but just saying the deal seems to leave the door open.

Also, 2015 Golf TDI:

Option confirmed August 9th
Documents Submitted October 7th
Document Accepted October 24th

Car is parked until it goes back to VW.


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

VeeDubMan54 said:


> VW is still making interest on their loans as long as they don't buy back their loaned cars. I wanted to short VW the interest since the announcement but at this point I just want it gone before the snow flies.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I do as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AJB said:


> Just under 100k. We are driving it less now to hopefully stay under before the buyback date we scheduled.


That mileage on a 2011 is about a $900 subtraction on NADA price. The manual transmission is another $575 subtraction. Considering that in addition to the $12k you are getting for the car, you have been able to use it since September 2015 without depreciation and VW has given you $1000 in the initial bonus and another $5300 in restitution, I don't really think that is such a bad deal. 

If VW comes up with a fix for the car, it might be worthwhile to keep the car if you don't' mind driving the car until it falls apart. But you will never get a better price for the car than VW is giving you. Right now the NADA value of your car shows to be $10,125. Frankly, that is probably optimistic as it might be tough for future owners to register it in certain state if there is no fix from VW.


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

shuko said:


> So it may have been covered in the last 400 pages of this thread... but reading the terms, as long as you're bringing back the car under 2.0 TDI power, you get the full amount (less mileage.)
> 
> So door dings, cracked windows, aftermarket mods don't matter?
> 
> ...


Well, there is a user here who will call you a scumbag for bringing back a car with door dings, cracked windows and missing parts. 

C'mon people - do you really think VW is going to inspect every turned in TDI and start to refurbish the cars? These aren't used iPhones. Would YOU really purchase a car that has a door from this car, a fender from another, seats from a third...

Think about all of the parts that would need to be replaced. Window seals wear out. The carpet padding, headliners start to sag. No matter how nice they look, 6 - 10 year old parts are still 6 to 10 years old. They will still need to be replaced.

In the long run it would be better to recycle the parts and get a good chunk of the money back.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

NickCarter said:


> I do as well. A friend told me that they can't repo for 90 days, may pick up the GTI and just stop paying on the TDI till they buy it back.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why is that? Is it not drivable or something?


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

caj1 said:


> Why is that? Is it not drivable or something?


I'm driving it daily, it's fine. 

My problem is that they clearly aren't going in any type of order. I have been on top of the process since day one. My replacement comes next week and the dealership is willing to hold it till VW comes through with the buyback, BUT this month they're offering almost $5k off msrp that I'd like to take advantage of. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

NickCarter said:


> I do as well. A friend told me that they can't repo for 90 days, may pick up the GTI and just stop paying on the TDI till they buy it back.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Can't repo a car locked in a garage; but not willing to risk a credit hit because VW is dragging their feet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

VeeDubMan54 said:


> Can't repo a car locked in a garage; but not willing to risk a credit hit because VW is dragging their feet.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Yeah I'm not seriously thinking about doing that, it was more of a joke. Just frustrating that I see people around me getting offers and scheduling buyback while I sit here and stare at the blue eyes day after day.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

I've had green checks since 11/2, uploaded docs on 9/17. Financed through VW credit. Nothing yet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Next month our car will be paid off. Think that would slow things down? Because I have one payment left?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

NickCarter said:


> Yeah I'm not seriously thinking about doing that, it was more of a joke. Just frustrating that I see people around me getting offers and scheduling buyback while I sit here and stare at the blue eyes day after day.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well you're not gonna be happy as I got my offer letter today and it was approved same day, but the dealer by me doesn't have an appointment until Tuesday 12/20/16 

I picked a dealer about 35min away instead and got 12/10/16, at least it's a Saturday and I don't have to take time out of the workday.


----------



## G60ING (Jun 27, 2000)

automobiliben said:


> Not if it was actually totaled by the insurance company. And that is an entirely different beast, depending on the date it was totaled.


It was totaled this past month.


----------



## todcp (Mar 6, 2005)

NickCarter said:


> I do as well. A friend told me that they can't repo for 90 days, may pick up the GTI and just stop paying on the TDI till they buy it back.
> 
> 
> Just note you can screw up your credit rating if the loan payment is reported as late.


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

Sump said:


> Well you're not gonna be happy as I got my offer letter today and it was approved same day, but the dealer by me doesn't have an appointment until Tuesday 12/20/16
> 
> I picked a dealer about 35min away instead and got 12/10/16, at least it's a Saturday and I don't have to take time out of the workday.


Yeah basically I'm gonna have three payments on three cars every month unless VW hurries up. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Anyone else get "missing pages" email after you returned the final offer back to VW notarized? My son sent his back today and this evening he got an email that there were missing pages. It is only 7 pages. I checked the download on the VW website myself and all 7 pages were there. And they were signed, dated, box checked and notarized.


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

spockcat said:


> Anyone else get "missing pages" email after you returned the final offer back to VW notarized? My son sent his back today and this evening he got an email that there were missing pages. It is only 7 pages. I checked the download on the VW website myself and all 7 pages were there. And they were signed, dated, box checked and notarized.


Do you live in California? I read earlier someone need a notary form from the website specifically California. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

NickCarter said:


> Yeah it's financed through VW. You would think that would make it quicker to verify, and the fact that I have a deposit down on an ordered car.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is just a guess, but I'm sure there is way more paperwork involved with loans and leases, than there is with a vehicle that is owned outright.


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

NickCarter said:


> I do as well. A friend told me that they can't repo for 90 days, may pick up the GTI and just stop paying on the TDI till they buy it back.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I guess you can do this, if you don't care about your credit rating.

Yeah, it's frustrating. Hang in there.


----------



## byoonak (May 2, 2009)

NickCarter said:


> Do you live in California? I read earlier someone need a notary form from the website specifically California.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


...and if you do, they are extremely picky about the acknowledgement form that is used. I received the missing page email this last Saturday morning. I called and spoke to claims support and was told it is because I was missing the CA Acknowledgement of Notarization form. As previous posted a couple pages back or so, how the heck was I supposed to know this was needed?!...it should have been included in the package with a "CA residents only" notice or something to that effect. To avoid me having another "incomplete" submission, I asked the lady (Amber S.) if she could provide me with the form they are looking for so that I wouldn't have to go out and pay for another notarization if I did not submit the correct one. She told me she is unable to provide me with anything, but any CA notary will have the form and will be acceptable. So I go out and get this acknowledgement notarized, and for your information the form I used was printed from the Secretary of State, State of California website so it is the "official" one. I submitted this page along with the original 7 pages Saturday night per Amber's instructions. 

Fast forward to this morning...another "missing pages" email. Needless to say, I was livid. Called VW claims again, and after a 45 minute hold spoke to Marcus who told me the form submitted is incorrect. He directed me to the vwcourtsettlement.com website and said the form is there (why couldn't Amber tell me about this on Saturday?!?!). We go to the site together while on the phone and pull up the form. Guess what? EXACT same verbiage word-for-word. I ask him why the form I used is not acceptable. He did not have an answer for me because he agreed there is no difference, and put me on hold while he spoke to his supervisor. He comes back and says even though the verbiage is what they are looking for, the format of it is different (the only thing different is the font). 

Honestly, I have no words. I had no complaints of the process until now...but now I am really ticked off. I had the form from the vwcourtsettlement website notarized and sent it in. If it does not go through this time............like I said, I have no words.


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

biturbowagon said:


> I guess you can do this, if you don't care about your credit rating.
> 
> Yeah, it's frustrating. Hang in there.


I'm going to. It was a joke. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

There really is no rhyme or reason to the order of claims. I believe today is the 10 day cut off from the roll out of this. I know a lot of you guys (including myself) are still waiting for VW to review the docs. Let the fines pour out from the heavens above. :laugh:

I also bought my replacement car since my buddy had a deposit on the truck he was buying. I hope VW can get this going for me soon.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

VeeDubMan54 said:


> I've had green checks since 11/2, uploaded docs on 9/17. Financed through VW credit. Nothing yet.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Seems things are processed on a regional basis. I'm in VT and my documents were approved on 11/2 as well.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

byoonak said:


> ...and if you do, they are extremely picky about the acknowledgement form that is used. I received the missing page email this last Saturday morning. I called and spoke to claims support and was told it is because I was missing the CA Acknowledgement of Notarization form. As previous posted a couple pages back or so, how the heck was I supposed to know this was needed?!...it should have been included in the package with a "CA residents only" notice or something to that effect. To avoid me having another "incomplete" submission, I asked the lady (Amber S.) if she could provide me with the form they are looking for so that I wouldn't have to go out and pay for another notarization if I did not submit the correct one. She told me she is unable to provide me with anything, but any CA notary will have the form and will be acceptable. So I go out and get this acknowledgement notarized, and for your information the form I used was printed from the Secretary of State, State of California website so it is the "official" one. I submitted this page along with the original 7 pages Saturday night per Amber's instructions.
> 
> Fast forward to this morning...another "missing pages" email. Needless to say, I was livid. Called VW claims again, and after a 45 minute hold spoke to Marcus who told me the form submitted is incorrect. He directed me to the vwcourtsettlement.com website and said the form is there (why couldn't Amber tell me about this on Saturday?!?!). We go to the site together while on the phone and pull up the form. Guess what? EXACT same verbiage word-for-word. I ask him why the form I used is not acceptable. He did not have an answer for me because he agreed there is no difference, and put me on hold while he spoke to his supervisor. He comes back and says even though the verbiage is what they are looking for, the format of it is different (the only thing different is the font).
> 
> Honestly, I have no words. I had no complaints of the process until now...but now I am really ticked off. I had the form from the vwcourtsettlement website notarized and sent it in. If it does not go through this time............like I said, I have no words.


Thanks. My son is in CA and VW knows this (CA DL, CA registration on the car, etc.). Why wouldn't VW send him the form they want him to submit? Rhetorical question. I assume this is the form:
https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/Forms/CA_Acknowledgement.pdf

Some serious headbanging for the stupidity if you ask me!

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:


----------



## PnZrFsT (Mar 8, 2007)

VT1.8T said:


> Seems things are processed on a regional basis. I'm in VT and my documents were approved on 11/2 as well.


MA resident here; docs approved 10/31


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

Do the green checks change to something else once the docs go from complete to approved? Just wondering.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

spockcat said:


> Thanks. My son is in CA and VW knows this (CA DL, CA registration on the car, etc.). Why wouldn't VW send him the form they want him to submit? Rhetorical question. I assume this is the form:
> https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/Forms/CA_Acknowledgement.pdf
> 
> Some serious headbanging for the stupidity if you ask me!
> ...


That is exactly what it was. CA Acknowledgement form. And when you get this form completed, you need to rescan and resubmit the entire document, now 8 pages rather than 7 pages, because VW doesn't keep the old PDF once they have reviewed it. And to find this out you need to get to a second level phone person. The first person you talk to on the phone apparently doesn't have the clearance to look at your records.


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

NickCarter said:


> Yeah I'm not seriously thinking about doing that, it was more of a joke. Just frustrating that I see people around me getting offers and scheduling buyback while I sit here and stare at the blue eyes day after day.


In the same boat man. It's starting to get irritating. Especially since today is supposed the be the 10 day cutoff for that as yuk said.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

byoonak said:


> ...and if you do, they are extremely picky about the acknowledgement form that is used. I received the missing page email this last Saturday morning. I called and spoke to claims support and was told it is because I was missing the CA Acknowledgement of Notarization form. As previous posted a couple pages back or so, how the heck was I supposed to know this was needed?!...it should have been included in the package with a "CA residents only" notice or something to that effect. To avoid me having another "incomplete" submission, I asked the lady (Amber S.) if she could provide me with the form they are looking for so that I wouldn't have to go out and pay for another notarization if I did not submit the correct one. She told me she is unable to provide me with anything, but any CA notary will have the form and will be acceptable. So I go out and get this acknowledgement notarized, and for your information the form I used was printed from the Secretary of State, State of California website so it is the "official" one. I submitted this page along with the original 7 pages Saturday night per Amber's instructions.
> 
> Fast forward to this morning...another "missing pages" email. Needless to say, I was livid. Called VW claims again, and after a 45 minute hold spoke to Marcus who told me the form submitted is incorrect. He directed me to the vwcourtsettlement.com website and said the form is there (why couldn't Amber tell me about this on Saturday?!?!). We go to the site together while on the phone and pull up the form. Guess what? EXACT same verbiage word-for-word. I ask him why the form I used is not acceptable. He did not have an answer for me because he agreed there is no difference, and put me on hold while he spoke to his supervisor. *He comes back and says even though the verbiage is what they are looking for, the format of it is different (the only thing different is the font). *
> 
> Honestly, I have no words. I had no complaints of the process until now...but now I am really ticked off. I had the form from the vwcourtsettlement website notarized and sent it in. If it does not go through this time............like I said, I have no words.


Can you send this information to the lead lawyers for the settlement? This sounds like VW is intentionally trying to harm the members of the class by rejecting forms that are legally compliant. VW needs to be penalized for rejecting valid forms. That is ******** and any lawyer for the plaintiffs should be able to see this.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Most likely regional. But who knows


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AJB said:


> ^^This.
> 
> Chris86vw... VW only paying me 12k. Listen every market is different up here in the northeast. 13.5k was the avg private party asking price for my car back in august. Dealers were even more. So 12k for my JSW is "not making me whole"


12K is all you could have HOPED to get in sept of 2015 for your


My 2012 in excellent only was listed at about 13,500 KBB, so sorry a 2011 wasn't the same price.


Being ignorant of the values at the time and listening to someone who cherry picked upper end retail values doesn't change the facts.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> How many miles on your 2011 JSW? My son is getting $18,250 ($12,750 for the vehicle and $5500 restitution) for his 2010. And do you own it outright?


Your forgetting that he posts only the trade in not the total price to be dramatic every time this topic comes up. He's getting a check for close to 50% more than he claims he is. And he has a 2011 one of the best trade in values on the list.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

gcodori said:


> Well, there is a user here who will call you a scumbag for bringing back a car with door dings, cracked windows and missing parts.



There is a HUGE gap between normal wear and tear or damage, then jumping to intentionally stripping parts off your car that are part of a special package that VW/Audi are compensating you for.

Try driving it in on a bucket, see how that goes. If you actually think that it's ok then do it, you won't since you know it's wrong.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW, U.S. reach deal on Audi-developed 3.0-liter diesels, report says*



> PARIS/FRANKFURT -- Volkswagen AG has reached an agreement with U.S. environmental regulators to fix or buy back around 80,000 Audi, VW and Porsche vehicles with tainted 3.0-liter diesel engines, nearing a resolution on a key aspect of the emissions-cheating scandal, people familiar with the discussions told Bloomberg.
> 
> Under an accord with the EPA and California’s Air Resources Board, Volkswagen would get the go-ahead to fix some 60,000 vehicles and offer to repurchase about 19,000 older models that would be too complex to repair, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the talks are confidential. The recall plans involve a simple software update, and avoiding a full buyback of all the cars would save the company about $4 billion, the people said.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> 12K is all you could have HOPED to get in sept of 2015 for your
> 
> 
> My 2012 in excellent only was listed at about 13,500 KBB, so sorry a 2011 wasn't the same price.
> ...



And he is cherry picking using KBB rather than NADA. KBB is typically high. Plus he doesn't know the mileage or options of the other guy with the 2011. As I posted, he is losing over $1500 NADA value due to his mileage and manual transmission.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

VT1.8T said:


> Seems things are processed on a regional basis. I'm in VT and my documents were approved on 11/2 as well.


I think it is a regional basis. I also think VW is sending the same people who are going to handle the process at each dealer on different days of the week. For example my local dealer is only showing time slots on Thursday for at least 6 months out. Another semi local dealer is showing only Saturdays. So I think the "buyback specialists" are just floating between dealer on different days of the week.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> Can you send this information to the lead lawyers for the settlement? This sounds like VW is intentionally trying to harm the members of the class by rejecting forms that are legally compliant. VW needs to be penalized for rejecting valid forms. That is ******** and any lawyer for the plaintiffs should be able to see this.


You've been in this thread long enough, and it just came up a few pages back.

THIS IS NOT VW.. a private company is handling the claims. VW is hands off to prevent people making accusations exactly like this.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

spockcat said:


> And he is cherry picking using KBB rather than NADA. KBB is typically high. Plus he doesn't know the mileage or options of the other guy with the 2011. As I posted, he is losing over $1500 NADA value due to his mileage and manual transmission.


Correct. I am. Using NADA trade in value is not making me whole. And keeping my car? For what? The value is already in the tank. Never going to recover, so I'm unloading it to VW because well at the moment they are offering the best price given my limited options.

If you look at the history of sales prices for used Tdi's, they WERE typically not that far off from the value of a new one because of the resale value TDi's used to have. its like the Honda Civic vs the Chevy Cruze, the Honda always had a higher resale value because it was perceived as a better more reliable car and as a used car buyer you paid a bit more for that.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AJB said:


> If you look at the history of sales prices for used Tdi's, they WERE typically not that far off from the value of a new one because of the resale value TDi's used to have.


So you think yours was worth 30k in sept 2015?


----------



## Beaumont Livingston (Nov 14, 2016)

I'm not really cherry picking anything. KBB listed as 13,500 and they are giving me 13,425 VRA based on NADA apparently. my JSW is automatic though.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> Your forgetting that he posts only the trade in not the total price to be dramatic every time this topic comes up. He's getting a check for close to 50% more than he claims he is. And he has a 2011 one of the best trade in values on the list.


Correct again, I've said from the beginning the $5100 restitution payment in my view doesn't count toward the buyback price they are paying me for my car. Why? I've said this already, if I keep my car, I get that money anyway.

Given we don't know if a fix will ever happen, why should I wait any longer and dump more money for maintenance and upkeep for the next two years? Are they going to warranty my DPF if/when a fix is installed? And for how long? What if I have to spend 3k on replacing the DPF next month, will I get reimbursed for the repair in two years? A bit more visibility into the VW through process would be nice. For example, ow about sending out a letter stating they will replace the DPF if it fails in the next two year free of charge?

Again, we bought the tdi in hopes to keeping it until 200k. One of the reasons we bought a tdi over the gas model was TDI perceived reliability and mpg.


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

Looks like I spoke too soon, my docs just got approved.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AJB said:


> Correct again, I've said from the beginning the $5100 restitution payment in my view doesn't count toward the buyback price they are paying me for my car. Why? I've said this already, if I keep my car, I get that money anyway.
> 
> Given we don't know if a fix will ever happen, why should I wait any longer and dump more money for maintenance and upkeep for the next two years? Are they going to warranty my DPF if/when a fix is installed? And for how long? What if I have to spend 3k on replacing the DPF next month, will I get reimbursed for the repair in two years? A bit more visibility into the VW through process would be nice. For example, ow about sending out a letter stating they will replace the DPF if it fails in the next two year free of charge?
> 
> Again, we bought the tdi in hopes to keeping it until 200k. One of the reasons we bought a tdi over the gas model was TDI perceived reliability and mpg.


But if you get your DPF fixed, you can keep your car for almost 2 more years and put 25,000 miles on it and still get the same buyback and restitution as today. If the DPF costs you $3k to replace (assuming you actually need one now) those 25,000 miles will cost you 12 cents per mile if VW doesn't decide to compensate you for the repair. And if you have kept the TDI until 200k miles, you would have had to pay for the DPF anyway. Depreciation on a new car over the next 2 years is going to be many times more than the $3k you will spend on the DPF you say you need.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> So you think yours was worth 30k in sept 2015?


Not at all. But 13.5k was not out of the question for my car. Chris, your pricing really doesn't hold up on asking prices for these cars prior to Sept 18th 2015. Again I don't know where you are located, but here in NJ JSW's, with the TDI and stick seemed to command the highest price.

Just a few that I found on here that hadn't had their price modified after the scandal broke or that still had the info posted after the car was sold.

One year older than my car....with more miles thatn my car had back then.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7241177-2010-VW-JSW-S-TDI-6-spd-Man-75k-Blck-Blck-13500

next...

More miles and ayear older:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...unroof-136k-DPF-Replaced-Timing-Belt-Serviced

A year newer and 22k less miles:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7212275-2012-Jetta-Sportwagen-TDI-w-extras-for-sale

A year older and had more miles than mine:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-2010-TDI-Sportwagen-6spd-in-Western-New-York

And another ( i know a year newer and 20k less miles, but asking 16k)
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7183967-FS-2012-Jetta-Sport-Wagon-TDI-Mint-Condition

Almost 10k asking here with over 100k more miles and three year older.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...NY-09-Jetta-Sportwagen-TDI-6spd-202k-9500-Obo

I feel that I'm not pulling these prices out of thin air as you keep suggesting....


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

spockcat said:


> But if you get your DPF fixed, you can keep your car for almost 2 more years and put 25,000 miles on it and still get the same buyback and restitution as today. If the DPF costs you $3k to replace (assuming you actually need one now) those 25,000 miles will cost you 12 cents per mile if VW doesn't decide to compensate you for the repair. And if you have kept the TDI until 200k miles, you would have had to pay for the DPF anyway. Depreciation on a new car over the next 2 years is going to be many times more than the $3k you will spend on the DPF you say you need.


Why would I spend 3k on the DPF, when the VW documentation suggests that they might cover a new one if a fix is approved? Also yes, my DPF light has gone on twice in the last months. But it doesn't stay on.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AJB said:


> Not at all. But 13.5k was not out of the question for my car. Chris, your pricing really doesn't hold up on asking prices for these cars prior to Sept 18th 2015. Again I don't know where you are located, but here in NJ JSW's, with the TDI and stick seemed to command the highest price.
> 
> Just a few that I found on here that hadn't had their price modified after the scandal broke or that still had the info posted after the car was sold.
> 
> ...


I clicked the first one and the price was reduced to $11,000 as the second post on the thread. Did any of these cars you are posting actually sell? If so, what were the final selling prices? Asking price really means nothing.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AJB said:


> Why would I spend 3k on the DPF, when the VW documentation suggests that they might cover a new one if a fix is approved? Also yes, my DPF light has gone on twice in the last months. But it doesn't stay on.


So keep driving it. What is the worst that can happen? At the end of the buyback period in 2018 sell it back to VW for the $12k plus restitution money. You're miles ahead of the game and have had the use of a car depreciation free. All you need to pay is normal maintenance that you would have had to have paid for anyway. 

I just don't see the point of your complaints unless it is that you are tired of the car and want a new car and want VW to pay for it. As it is, VW is paying you almost $18,000 (buyback and restitution) for a 5 year old car with 100k miles. You can buy a 2011 BMW 5 series with fewer miles for less than that.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

spockcat said:


> I clicked the first one and the price was reduced to $11,000 as the second post on the thread. Did any of these cars you are posting actually sell? If so, what were the final selling prices? Asking price really means nothing.


Asking prices show a trend. Every car is different we all understand that. But none of the links I posted are out liners. meaning someone is asking far more or less than the rest.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AJB said:


> Asking prices show a trend. Every car is different we all understand that. But none of the links I posted are out liners. meaning someone is asking far more or less than the rest.


Visit any car forum classified ads and you will find the highest asking price ads. Just using Vortex ads are in themselves outliers. And not finding the actual sales price makes them even more meaningless.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Docs Submitted 9/29
Docs Accepted 10/20
VW Buyback Offer letter 11/12
Submitted signed/notarized offer letter 11/14
VW Approved buyback to schedule turn-in 11/15
Buy Back appointment to turn in 12/17 (First date available)


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

AJB said:


> I think it is a regional basis. I also think VW is sending the same people who are going to handle the process at each dealer on different days of the week. For example my local dealer is only showing time slots on Thursday for at least 6 months out. Another semi local dealer is showing only Saturdays. So I think the "buyback specialists" are just floating between dealer on different days of the week.


And i just got my offer package complete email. Total amount is $20,656.73 for 2011 4dr Golf w/DSG, dynaudio and sunroof. Purcahse price was $25,500 in 4/'11


----------



## shuko (Jul 24, 2007)

chris86vw said:


> There is a HUGE gap between normal wear and tear or damage, then jumping to intentionally stripping parts off your car that are part of a special package that VW/Audi are compensating you for.
> 
> Try driving it in on a bucket, see how that goes. If you actually think that it's ok then do it, you won't since you know it's wrong.


I was saying hypothetically! In the buyback FAQ it even says that if you get in a wreck, as long as you can drive it in to the dealership all is good.

However, last time I traded in a car to VW (a Tiguan) they gave me KBB "good" trade in price, but then subtracted $250 for rock chips in the window, $1000 for "aftermarket" suspension (I had recently replaced all the original worn out stuff with ST...) etc.

I have a replacement rear view mirror and aftermarket headlights on the TDI... I would like to think that sort of thing won't matter to the buyback value, and am assuming it won't.

But if THAT doesn't matter, really, where would they draw the line? The one condition is "running." Really does seem to leave the door open for people to swap like parts; interiors, especially those that have the higher trim packages with power leather seats, HID headlights, steering wheels...


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

shuko said:


> I was saying hypothetically! In the buyback FAQ it even says that if you get in a wreck, as long as you can drive it in to the dealership all is good.
> 
> However, last time I traded in a car to VW (a Tiguan) they gave me KBB "good" trade in price, but then subtracted $250 for rock chips in the window, $1000 for "aftermarket" suspension (I had recently replaced all the original worn out stuff with ST...) etc.
> 
> ...


The person who is conducting the buyback isn't even a VW person. They will have ZERO clue what the difference between aftermarket headlights or OEM is. Considering you could drive in a car that has had all 6 airbags deploy in an accident (destroying the dash and front seats) and the fact they need to plow through 8-10 cars a day, they will literally just make sure the thing is running and move on.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

reading through the offer letter i noticed it said to give them a call if there are multiple owners to the car and not all of them are listed on the first page. Only my name is on the letter but both my wife and I are on the title and registration, though my name appears first. Not sure if I want to give them a call or just have my wife also sign the paperwork and send back.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

VT1.8T said:


> And i just got my offer package complete email. Total amount is $20,656.73 for 2011 4dr Golf w/DSG, dynaudio and sunroof. Purcahse price was $25,500 in 4/'11


When were your docs accepted/approved to confirm eligibility? I got my confirmation on Nov 2, so I'm at the 10 business days mark. I cautiously optimistic that I'll get my offer letter this week...


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

Mazda 3s said:


> When were your docs accepted/approved to confirm eligibility? I got my confirmation on Nov 2, so I'm at the 10 business days mark. I cautiously optimistic that I'll get my offer letter this week...


11/2 as well.


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

spockcat said:


> *VW, U.S. reach deal on Audi-developed 3.0-liter diesels, report says*


confused......not sure what years are "older" as they are all the same motor and emissions system as far as I know


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

.LSinLV. said:


> confused......not sure what years are "older" as they are all the same motor and emissions system as far as I know


I think there are differences in generations on the 3.0 tdi.

Gen 1 = 2009-2012 CATA engine

Gen 2.1 = 2013-2014 CNRB engine

Gen 2.2 = 2015-2016 CNRB engine


----------



## .LSinLV. (Nov 13, 2009)

spockcat said:


> I think there are differences in generations on the 3.0 tdi.
> 
> Gen 1 = 2009-2012 CATA engine
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

VT1.8T said:


> 11/2 as well.


Seems as though everyone that has their vehicle paid off is getting their offers already. No one with outstanding loans (like me) have received offers yet.


----------



## shuko (Jul 24, 2007)

OK, so is there any change to the claims portal once the paperwork in ready for notarizing?

Or am I obsessively checking the claims portal for nothing, when I should be just waiting for an email/paper mail?


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

.yuk. said:


> There really is no rhyme or reason to the order of claims. I believe today is the 10 day cut off from the roll out of this. I know a lot of you guys (including myself) are still waiting for VW to review the docs. Let the fines pour out from the heavens above. :laugh:
> 
> I also bought my replacement car since my buddy had a deposit on the truck he was buying. I hope VW can get this going for me soon.


Yeah today I called and now they're saying it's 30 days to approve. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> Docs Submitted 9/29
> Docs Accepted 10/20
> VW Buyback Offer letter 11/12
> Submitted signed/notarized offer letter 11/14
> ...


Docs submitted 9/19




...still waiting 11/15


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

spockcat said:


> I think there are differences in generations on the 3.0 tdi.
> 
> Gen 1 = 2009-2012 CATA engine
> 
> ...


This is correct. And crap. I really want to keep my Touareg.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

NickCarter said:


> Docs submitted 9/19
> ...still waiting 11/15
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


do we really have to say it again? 
your doc submission date is moot. nothing started to move at all, for anyone until 10/25. I dont care if you submitted the papers in January.


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

Mazda 3s said:


> Seems as though everyone that has their vehicle paid off is getting their offers already. No one with outstanding loans (like me) have received offers yet.


Mine's paid off and I haven't gotten my offer yet. I did my docs almost as soon as you could upload them. They were approved just after the official court date.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Aseras said:


> Mine's paid off and I haven't gotten my offer yet. I did my docs almost as soon as you could upload them. They were approved just after the official court date.


which still means just be patient and you should have your offer shortly.

without the loan there is just a lot less coordination that needs to be done.. so you have a good shot of hearing from them before i do.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

I picked a buyback date of 12/10/16. I wanted to give myself enough time to find another vehicle. Which at the moment is becoming difficult.


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

dunhamjr said:


> do we really have to say it again?
> your doc submission date is moot. nothing started to move at all, for anyone until 10/25. I dont care if you submitted the papers in January.


I understand nothing started till 10/25, no sense in being rude. 

We can all agree the process sucks, he posted his timeline, I replied with mine. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BadassLilGolf (Mar 21, 2001)

My documents were approved 11/1, and still anxiously waiting. Not only does getting a new car hinge on the buyback, but a new house too. We sold our current house and our debt to income will be much more favorable without the car loan.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I got green check marks on the 10th day (yesterday) haha. And from what I know, they are still on the 10 day crunch to approve. Now we (work) have 10 days to review and approve, then it moves onto the next stage (notarized doc) which is 10 days I believe. I think each step gets 10 days. I gotta look into it.


----------



## shuko (Jul 24, 2007)

.yuk. said:


> I got green check marks on the 10th day (yesterday) haha. And from what I know, they are still on the 10 day crunch to approve. Now we (work) have 10 days to review and approve, then it moves onto the next stage (notarized doc) which is 10 days I believe. I think each step gets 10 days. I gotta look into it.


Nope, sorry, there is no 10 day crunch. If you re-read the text, it says that _We are now determining your eligibility and will inform you whether you are eligible to participate in the Settlement Claims Program and, if applicable, will provide you with a final offer, within ten business days._

Broken into steps, this is:
-We are determining your eligibility (of which there is no explicit time limitation to complete)
-Once we do, we will inform you yay or nay.
-If we say yay, we will provide you an offer within 10 days of the yay.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

I feel bad for the people that went ahead and parked their TDi and got a new car, thinking this process was going to take a short amount of time. Pretty soon they will be stuck with 2 car payments (unless the car is paid off already). Dealer tried to talk me into doing that but I said NOPE! Never know with things like these. It might take 3 months to get offers for all we know. It's just a waiting game. Literally.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

SixpackMk3 said:


> I feel bad for the people that went ahead and parked their TDi and got a new car, thinking this process was going to take a short amount of time. Pretty soon they will be stuck with 2 car payments (unless the car is paid off already). Dealer tried to talk me into doing that but I said NOPE! Never know with things like these. It might take 3 months to get offers for all we know. It's just a waiting game. Literally.


Yeah, sucks. I was close to going that route but thankfully decided against it. Currently have a 2017 WRX sitting at the dealership being held on deposit, just waiting for the buyback stuff to go through so I can go start signing paperwork. tick tock tick tock.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

spockcat said:


> Thanks. My son is in CA and VW knows this (CA DL, CA registration on the car, etc.). Why wouldn't VW send him the form they want him to submit? Rhetorical question. I assume this is the form:
> https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/Forms/CA_Acknowledgement.pdf
> 
> Some serious headbanging for the stupidity if you ask me!
> ...


My son's car is now at the book appointment stage after he submitted the CA Acknowledgement form. 1 day. That was quick.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

shuko said:


> Nope, sorry, there is no 10 day crunch. If you re-read the text, it says that _We are now determining your eligibility and will inform you whether you are eligible to participate in the Settlement Claims Program and, if applicable, will provide you with a final offer, within ten business days._
> 
> Broken into steps, this is:
> -We are determining your eligibility (of which there is no explicit time limitation to complete)
> ...


You have some kind of inside knowledge that I don't know about from the inside? :laugh:


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

spockcat said:


> My son's car is now at the book appointment stage after he submitted the CA Acknowledgement form. 1 day. That was quick.


Looking at the claims tracker that someone posted earlier in this thread, it looks like there is some validity to the argument that they are approving people who have paid off their cars more quickly. It also looks like there might be regions that are getting addressed earlier, e.g. California and Virginia.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

tomski12 said:


> Looking at the claims tracker that someone posted earlier in this thread, it looks like there is some validity to the argument that they are approving people who have paid off their cars more quickly. It also looks like there might be regions that are getting addressed earlier, e.g. California and Virginia.


getting payoff offers out to people with paid off cars first, absolutely makes sense to me. without having to deal with the bank there is just less admin overhead. now i dont really think that they are prioritizing them based on paid off status or not, i think its just a matter of getting all the paperwork logistics in place to be able to get account info lined up, bank comms done, payoff amounts accounted for, etc...

the CA/VA thing. that could just be a coincidence.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

dunhamjr said:


> getting payoff offers out to people with paid off cars first, absolutely makes sense to me. without having to deal with the bank there is just less admin overhead. now i dont really think that they are prioritizing them based on paid off status or not, i think its just a matter of getting all the paperwork logistics in place to be able to get account info lined up, bank comms done, payoff amounts accounted for, etc...
> 
> the CA/VA thing. that could just be a coincidence.


You're probably right. The CA/VA thing is purely anecdotal. The claims tracker is dependent on people inputing their info.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

tomski12 said:


> You're probably right. The CA/VA thing is purely anecdotal. The claims tracker is dependent on people inputing their info.


I disagree. I agree with the regional statement. :wave:


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Finally got the green checks this morning.

I'm hoping my paperwork doesn't get screwed up. I paid off the car in the time between submitting my claim and now, but the stupid website doesn't let you make any changes to the claim. Because of that, I now have the title but wasn't asked to submit a copy. Who knows how they're going to handle this...:screwy:


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

Things are moving quickly. Got my offer letter Monday, got it notarized and uploaded yesterday, it was accepted today! Went in to schedule my appointment, next available is Dec. 28.


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

Documents accepted today. I'm a happy guy. 

Called up VW Credit, they extend out your payments a month at a time for $5. You can do that up to three times, just in case someone got stuck payments because this has taken longer. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

NickCarter said:


> Documents accepted today. I'm a happy guy.
> 
> Called up VW Credit, they extend out your payments a month at a time for $5. You can do that up to three times, just in case someone got stuck payments because this has taken longer.


Why would you do that? You're just paying more interest which equals less money back to you after payoff.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

GTI 20v said:


> Why would you do that? You're just paying more interest which equals less money back to you after payoff.


so that those people who have already replaced the TDI dont have to make two car payments for 1-3 months... at the cost of $5, and a few extra dollars in interest.
i mean really, its very minimal interest the difference on the balance being say $400/ for each month skipped at less than 5% for most people. its minor.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Yea I pushed the payment back 2 months on the car I just bought and it raised the payment by 5 cents.


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

GTI 20v said:


> Why would you do that? You're just paying more interest which equals less money back to you after payoff.





dunhamjr said:


> so that those people who have already replaced the TDI dont have to make two car payments for 1-3 months... at the cost of $5, and a few extra dollars in interest.
> i mean really, its very minimal interest the difference on the balance being say $400/ for each month skipped at less than 5% for most people. its minor.


Exactly. 
Example: 
$350 a month x 3 = $1050
Or
$5 fee x3= $15
Interest a month (about$65) x 3 = $195

$1050-$195-$15=$840 savings




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

.yuk. said:


> You have some kind of inside knowledge that I don't know about from the inside? :laugh:


Well, day 10 of green checks and nothing in my email or on the portal....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

NickCarter said:


> Exactly.
> Example:
> $350 a month x 3 = $1050
> Or
> ...


savings may be a little more than i would say.
its only really a 'savings' to the monthly budget since you will spend it elsewhere.

and that $840 is still going to come out of the buy back amount you end up with... so it IS gone either way. 
its just gone a few months down the line out of your 'free money' instead of due "right meow!" possibly affecting other monthly bills.


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

dunhamjr said:


> savings may be a little more than i would say.
> its only really a 'savings' to the monthly budget since you will spend it elsewhere.
> 
> and that $840 is still going to come out of the buy back amount you end up with... so it IS gone either way.
> its just gone a few months down the line out of your 'free money' instead of due "right meow!" possibly affecting other monthly bills.


True, but for those who already purchased another vehicle they can apply that money to their new vehicle. I'm lucky enough to be making money on this deal, and purchasing another car with a lower payment. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

.yuk. said:


> Yea I pushed the payment back 2 months on the car I just bought and it raised the payment by 5 cents.


But but but...time value of money! compound interest!


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

NickCarter said:


> Exactly.
> Example:
> $350 a month x 3 = $1050
> Or
> ...


How exactly are you "saving" $840? It's just getting added to your payoff amount.

I am perplexed by people who can't afford (for the short term) an extra car payment but went ahead and bought a new car anyway when the buyback date was unknown. Instead of going through monthly payment gymnastics...why not just wait?


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

GTI 20v said:


> How exactly are you "saving" $840? It's just getting added to your payoff amount.
> 
> I am perplexed by people who can't afford (for the short term) an extra car payment but went ahead and bought a new car anyway when the buyback date was unknown. Instead of going through monthly payment gymnastics...why not just wait?


Well not saving. I can afford the two payments, and I haven't purchased a replacement yet, but I posted info for others. 

I am going to push mine out some, only because Christmas is coming up, and I want to get in on the deals the local lot has going for November. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

I'm trying to buy a replacement vehicle. Looking at used minivans. And none of the dealer I worked with will haggle a penny. Nuts. I thought minivan were just sitting on lots with everyone going for SUV's? Guess not. The one I'm looking at has been on the lots for four months, and they won't go down a penny. If I can't get a minivan in the next two weeks, I'm going to push my buyback date back into the new year.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

veedubBiker said:


> But but but...time value of money! compound interest!


:laugh:

much bigger deal when its $50k sitting for 30 years at 5-8%.

not such a big thing on $1200 for 3 months at 2%.

:beer:


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> :laugh:
> 
> much bigger deal when its $50k sitting for 30 years at 5-8%.
> 
> ...


It's the outstanding balance of the loan at 3% for 3 months. So if you owe $15k, it's approximately $150. Again, the bigger issue is why not wait until you have a buyback date to buy a new car if the payments will be a problem? We bought a TDI replacement last month, but then ours is paid off.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

GTI 20v said:


> It's the outstanding balance of the loan at 3% for 3 months. So if you owe $15k, it's approximately $150. Again, the bigger issue is why not wait until you have a buyback date to buy a new car if the payments will be a problem? We bought a TDI replacement last month, but then ours is paid off.


but you would owe on the balance either way right?

so the impact is ONLY the difference in having made those payments in those 3 months or not... NOT the full amount of the interest owed.
the FULL interest due in those months could be $150, $50 per month... but that amount will vary by person because of term length initially chosen, where you are IN that term, and the interest rate.

as a hard example, if we did a 1 month loan deferment on our current TDI loan, the $5 fee plus the interest of $34.93 (<--this month, last month was $36.25, month before it was $36.91), would mean doing a 3 month deferment would cost me just about $120.

the interest penalty is ONLY for the payments you would have made and deferred. overall you are still obligated to pay the interest over the term.
month 1 its the interest on the balance difference between $15k, and $14,600.
month 2 its the interest on the balance difference between $15k, and $14,200.
month 3 its the interest on the balance difference between $15k, and $13,800.

to make it easier to see... lets ignore that you wouldnt be losing the FULL interest each month above and beyond what you were obligated to pay. (the real amount lost, is really quite quite small by deferring 3 months)

lets just say, if that $120 charge allowed me to get another car during a dealers black friday sales (or whatever)... I could EASILY save thousands overall (my last sale price was $4k off msrp)... and not have to worry about floating the 
payments ($1200) on two vehicles (now $2400-ish) for those 3 months.

so basically pay $120 to save $4k... and keep that extra $1200 in pocket for a couple months instead of paying it out to a loan on a car i am not driving/keeping anyways.

pretty much a no-brainer in a number of situations.

NOW...
i do agree. in a lot of cases that BETTER option is to wait to get the new car until a buyback is completed. but no everyone can do that. 

maybe their car had a major failure, and will only make one last trip... to the dealer. 

maybe their dream car showed up on the doorstep and needs to be bought now. 

maybe... as in my case with our Mazda6, you find a well spec'd, low mileage, well maintained car that you can buyout of someones lease for $3-4k less than buying a similar used example a couple months down the road.

we all have different things going on, and not everyone can wait for the process to complete before trying to move to the next thing.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

dunhamjr said:


> but you would owe on the balance either way right?
> 
> so the impact is ONLY the difference in having made those payments in those 3 months or not... NOT the full amount of the interest owed.
> $150 might be right, $50 per month... but that amount will vary by person because of term length initially chosen, where you are IN that term, and the interest rate.
> ...


Yeah, I pretty much have to buy a car before the buyback or on the same day and since I'm buying used it becoming difficult to get things arranged.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

AJB said:


> Yeah, I pretty much have to buy a car before the buyback or on the same day and since I'm buying used it becoming difficult to get things arranged.


thats possible. 
though in your case, i maybe dont get the logistic issue since your sig shows that you have 3 cars.

making assumptions...
unless one is undriveable, or one is your kids car... that to me seems like still one car for you, one car for the wife.


----------



## alex_bgnet (Jan 7, 2004)

Submitted my docs today. The waiting game begins!


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Getting chilly here especially when we get into January in the Northeast to be driving the Chevy SS on summer rubber.

But you are correct I have three working vehicles, but since my wife an I both work, if we had some bad weather we would be in a bind.


----------



## BenVC (Dec 26, 2010)

Sorry if this has been answered before, but does the buyback payment count as income? Will I have to pay tax on this? Thanks


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

BenVC said:


> Sorry if this has been answered before, but does the buyback payment count as income? Will I have to pay tax on this? Thanks


Are you making a profit on the vehicle?


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

BenVC said:


> Sorry if this has been answered before, but does the buyback payment count as income? Will I have to pay tax on this? Thanks


Does selling a car that you originally bought ever count as income?


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> but you would owe on the balance either way right?


You are right, my comparison was incorrectly based on selling the car now vs in 3 months.


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

AJB said:


> If you look at the history of sales prices for used Tdi's, they WERE typically not that far off from the value of a new one because of the resale value TDi's used to have. its like the Honda Civic vs the Chevy Cruze, the Honda always had a higher resale value because it was perceived as a better more reliable car and as a used car buyer you paid a bit more for that.



As I recall, the residuals for TDIs were dropping even before Dieselgate hit.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

biturbowagon said:


> As I recall, the residuals for TDIs were dropping even before Dieselgate hit.


Correct.. diesels were beginning to lose their luster long before dieselgate, thanks to $2 a gallon gas and the 10% diesel premium on msrp


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

dunhamjr said:


> We all have different things going on, and not everyone can wait for the process to complete before trying to move to the next thing.


You better explained my point. If I wait, I could possibly miss out of $4700 off MSRP


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

4700 off msrp is crap. Depending on cars you can go 4-10k under invoice and the dealer still makes a profit. 

Msrp is sucker pricing, and invoice is too. You have to know the whole true cost, incentives, rebates and hold backs, time on lot etc.

I bought now because it 0% interest and I got a hairs breath from triple net, 1400 under invoice on a Subaru. Pretty hard to beat.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

GTI 20v said:


> Does selling a car that you originally bought ever count as income?


If you sell it for a profit, yes. Same rules should apply here - if somebody managed to snag a screamin deal on a used TDI right before the scandal broke, they could _potentially_ be making a profit by doing the buyback. Check with a CPA in that case. For the vast majority of TDI owners though, they'll be selling the car back for less than they paid. No profit = no income = no income tax... in general. If you're really unsure, talk to a CPA though.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

AZGolf said:


> If you sell it for a profit, yes. Same rules should apply here - if somebody managed to snag a screamin deal on a used TDI right before the scandal broke, they could _potentially_ be making a profit by doing the buyback. Check with a CPA in that case. For the vast majority of TDI owners though, they'll be selling the car back for less than they paid. No profit = no income = no income tax... in general. If you're really unsure, talk to a CPA though.


 We purchased a 2014 near the end of the MY and paid 27 OTD with tax and all that. VW is giving us $30,4xx. :thumbup:


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

Buyback appointment scheduled for 12/14. Yahoo!


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

AZGolf said:


> If you sell it for a profit, yes. Same rules should apply here - if somebody managed to snag a screamin deal on a used TDI right before the scandal broke, they could _potentially_ be making a profit by doing the buyback. Check with a CPA in that case. For the vast majority of TDI owners though, they'll be selling the car back for less than they paid. No profit = no income = no income tax... in general. If you're really unsure, talk to a CPA though.


I assume that if the car is company owned and depreciated according to normal rules, there might be some profit in the buyback and thus income to declare. But that isn't a likely situation for most people on this forum.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

spockcat said:


> I assume that if the car is company owned and depreciated according to normal rules, there might be some profit in the buyback and thus income to declare. But that isn't a likely situation for most people on this forum.


It was listed in the FAQ that you don't have to pay taxes on it...

Ahh, I see you are talking about a company car. That is correct, if you already deducted depreciation on it it mentioned this caveat.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Aseras said:


> 4700 off msrp is crap. Depending on cars you can go 4-10k under invoice and the dealer still makes a profit.
> 
> Msrp is sucker pricing, and invoice is too. You have to know the whole true cost, incentives, rebates and hold backs, time on lot etc.
> 
> I bought now because it 0% interest and I got a hairs breath from triple net, 1400 under invoice on a Subaru. Pretty hard to beat.


dont be dumb.
saying $4k off msrp doesnt give you ANY clue how good a deal it was. when you dont understand the rest.

in my instance... i actually cant recall now if it was $4k or 5k off MSRP.
either way the end result was over $3k UNDER invoice. 

compared to your $1400 under invoice, you got a crap deal. right? thats how your logic works doesnt it? :banghead:

also my deal was on a VW, not a Chevy or Ford where huge discounts are always available. so my getting $4-5K off msrp was actually a GREAT deal regardless of if i provide the numbers vs MSRP or do the math to tell you how much under invoice i paid.


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

Aseras said:


> 4700 off msrp is crap. Depending on cars you can go 4-10k under invoice and the dealer still makes a profit.
> 
> Msrp is sucker pricing, and invoice is too. You have to know the whole true cost, incentives, rebates and hold backs, time on lot etc.
> 
> I bought now because it 0% interest and I got a hairs breath from triple net, 1400 under invoice on a Subaru. Pretty hard to beat.


So your telling me the rebates, loyalty incentives, and the lots sale of $4700 off is crap? Find a 2017 GTI anywhere new financed for less than $21k out the door. 

Image is before my incentive cash. 








Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

Holy **** these people are rude. Just spoke with "Jasmine" who indicated that once the documents are reviewed and approved VW (green checks) it is sent back to the auditor for which they have an additional 10 days; yet I "should" be hearing something back within a week. Didn't even take my claim number to check status. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

VeeDubMan54 said:


> Holy **** these people are rude. Just spoke with "Jasmine" who indicated that once the documents are reviewed and approved VW (green checks) it is sent back to the auditor for which they have an additional 10 days; yet I "should" be hearing something back within a week. Didn't even take my claim number to check status.


You'd be rude too if you had to talk to a bunch of TDI owners all day.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

GTI 20v said:


> You'd be rude too if you had to talk to a bunch of TDI owners all day.


pretty much this.

basically everyone is calling in to whine and complain and be angry about why the buyback is taking so long.
CS reps do their best to not explode, but they are people too and s with everyone... sometimes they just want to slap every person that calls in, so that can come across in their tone.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

GTI 20v said:


> You'd be rude too if you had to talk to a bunch of TDI owners all day.


That doesn't excuse some of the incredibly rude some of the phone staff have been, even when you start off being nice....... and then it seems to go total


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

dunhamjr said:


> pretty much this.
> 
> basically everyone is calling in to whine and complain and be angry about why the buyback is taking so long.
> CS reps do their best to not explode, but they are people too and s with everyone... sometimes they just want to slap every person that calls in, so that can come across in their tone.


I do something kinda related for work and find that the ultimate goal gets achieved easier by being cordial and cooperative. Only difference is if people don't do what I ask or politely instruct them to do, they go to jail. There's absolutely no need to be rude if it's their profession to be giving people useful information. If it weren't for this settlement, they wouldn't be employed as such "information givers". 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## fortyfive1911a1 (Aug 25, 2014)

Already got my cash back from VW and in my account. Went really quick since I don't have the car anymore.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

VeeDubMan54 said:


> I do something kinda related for work and find that the ultimate goal gets achieved easier by being cordial and cooperative. Only difference is if people don't do what I ask or politely instruct them to do, they go to jail. There's absolutely no need to be rude if it's their profession to be giving people useful information. If it weren't for this settlement, they wouldn't be employed as such "information givers".
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


i do as well, which is why i know it happens. a lot, or at least a lot more than most would like. 
and having been on on the giving side, its not always what we mean to happen.

i also no that no matter what you do, there are just some people who do not mesh... and will think you rude even if/when you bend over backwards and offer them your first born son.


----------



## fortyfive1911a1 (Aug 25, 2014)

Is there a deadline to sign up for the buyback/restitution? I have a friend that is a ding dong and still hasn't signed up for her 2013 Jetta TDI. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

fortyfive1911a1 said:


> Is there a deadline to sign up for the buyback/restitution? I have a friend that is a ding dong and still hasn't signed up for her 2013 Jetta TDI.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's in the paperwork, which isn't in front of my as I type this. Maybe September of 2018 to sign up? Look it up to be sure.

Basically, there is no rush if you're not in a rush to do the buyback. 

Frankly, I don't understand why so many people are in a rush. It's one thing if you have a lease and are going to go over mileage (or have already), or if you have a loan with an unfavorable rate, or if you're off warranty and are afraid of having to pay for major repairs. 

But for many of us, isn't it better just to keep driving a nondepreciating car?


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

biturbowagon said:


> Frankly, I don't understand why so many people are in a rush. It's one thing if you have a lease and are going to go over mileage (or have already), or if you have a loan with an unfavorable rate, or if you're off warranty and are afraid of having to pay for major repairs.
> 
> But for many of us, isn't it better just to keep driving a nondepreciating car?


honestly, it really is likely a better situation financially to just keep the TDI for the next 2 years and drive it.
but there are enough unknowns about what might happen in those two years that a number of people are rightfully concerned about keeping the car even for that duration, and would rather just get out of the cars immediately.

the big one for most people is what happens if it gets totaled over the next two years. inevitably that WILL happen to someone, and we will then know. but until that time, its the risk people don't want to take. the insurance payout even with VW still paying a restitution amount would still likely be less than the full VW buy back. or maybe VW will still do the buy back at the full amount, even though it now has a salvaged title... unknown.

many people are just complainy about having to do potential large maintenance items over the next 2 yrs. I think that this issue has mostly been debunked because even if they had to do $5k in maintenance and repair over a 24 month period... the end result in most instances still ended up more favorably money wise than to do an immediate buy back and purchase into another new (depreciating) car.

the impatience to do the immediate buy backs is not logical, at least not from a purely financial perspective. its emotional.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

dunhamjr said:


> the impatience to do the immediate buy backs is not logical, at least not from a purely financial perspective. its emotional.


That statement is built upon a fair amount of assumptions.


----------



## Volkl (Oct 2, 2003)

biturbowagon said:


> But for many of us, isn't it better just to keep driving a nondepreciating car?


I'm a claims adjuster, and have totaled a few TDIs since the buyback process started. The difference between the settlement from insurance co plus VW restitution, and selling the vehicle back to VW outright in some cases was $5K+. With winter and icy roads coming up, I would be lying if I said I wasn't a bit nervous keeping the car on the road. My plan right now is to sell it back in the spring.


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

*Four green checks, waiting on one big green check...*

Greetings all. I own a 2012 GTI 6-speed manual, 75K miles, loan completely paid off a while ago. 

I've got the 4 green checks on my documents on the claim site, but I'm not sure how long they've been there. I don't remember when we filled out the forms and such -- but that chart linked to several pages up is really interesting. Some people have put tons of work into that thing! It does seem to show that there's a caste system: first folks who own their car outright, then everybody else. Maybe it's buyers with a loan next, then lessors, then the odd cases like someone who is due some money but who sold their car? Anybody here in that last category?

Anyway, someone up above in this thread said at the time of your buyback appointment agreeing to an electronic funds transfer into your bank account gets you your money quicker than having a check mailed to you. I guess I don't get it -- for one thing, a dealer here had the same impression I did - that when you went they cut you a check right then and there. But mainly I don't get it because I'm not comfortable with surrendering my car and only leaving with a promise that I'll get the money. What if VWoA declares bankruptcy the next day? I know they won't, don't even bring up that point, it's the principle I'm trying to get at. We're supposed to just hand over our cars and have faith they'll pay? That seems odd to me.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

Hexagonal said:


> Anyway, someone up above in this thread said at the time of your buyback appointment agreeing to an electronic funds transfer into your bank account gets you your money quicker than having a check mailed to you. I guess I don't get it -- for one thing, a dealer here had the same impression I did - that when you went they cut you a check right then and there. But mainly I don't get it because I'm not comfortable with surrendering my car and only leaving with a promise that I'll get the money. What if VWoA declares bankruptcy the next day? I know they won't, don't even bring up that point, it's the principle I'm trying to get at. We're supposed to just hand over our cars and have faith they'll pay? That seems odd to me.


When I scheduled my appointment I had the choice between a check given on the spot or EFT within 3 days. I chose the EFT. If I had chosen a check for $20,600 and deposited it in the bank, i am sure they would have put a hold on the funds for a few days. So probably really no difference.


----------



## todcp (Mar 6, 2005)

I finally spoke with someone this morning that was knowledgeable. 
She told me that the 10 days from green check mark for the offer email/letter is now up to four to six weeks. 
My green check marks were two weeks ago so she said probably two more weeks for me since my paperwork was "uploaded" within two days of the system being turned on. 
She also said they are processing based on when the documents were initially uploaded/received.

She warned me to be sure to send back all seven pages of the offer document and not just the two signature pages as some are experiencing delays due to only sending back the two pages. Sending them back via upload electronically is faster as they are working from when documents are received.


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> the impatience to do the immediate buy backs is not logical, at least not from a purely financial perspective. its emotional.


Maybe in your case. In our case, our JSW has an inop head unit and is due for a major service. Not wanting to put 4 figures into a car that is going to be bought back anyway is emotional?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

biturbowagon said:


> Basically, there is no rush if you're not in a rush to do the buyback.
> 
> Frankly, I don't understand why so many people are in a rush. It's one thing if you have a lease and are going to go over mileage (or have already), or if you have a loan with an unfavorable rate, or if you're off warranty and are afraid of having to pay for major repairs.
> 
> But for many of us, isn't it better just to keep driving a nondepreciating car?


You are right but considering many of these cars are 4-5 years old, people are probably looking at it and figuring they want a new car out of the deal due to the boredom factor. For the people with 2014 and 2014 models, I don't know. There are people who are probably still within warranty and have low miles that could drive the car with only basic maintenance costs. They are really the ones that should be holding out until 2018.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

GTI 20v said:


> Maybe in your case. In our case, our JSW has an inop head unit and is due for a major service. Not wanting to put 4 figures into a car that is going to be bought back anyway is emotional?


That's where we are - due for 50K service and needing new tyres. Plus we have a few nice incentives on top of a F&F letter, it's a good time to get this crap over with.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

GTI 20v said:


> Maybe in your case. In our case, our JSW has an inop head unit and is due for a major service. Not wanting to put 4 figures into a car that is going to be bought back anyway is emotional?


i would say yes.

what major service costs a grand by itself? only thing i can guess is timing belt.
unless you are adding in the cost of the stereo as well. which honestly you can get a damn decent replacement stereo for under $200 installed.

either way.
lets just inflate it and say $2k. over 24 months. works out to... $83/mo
thats pretty cheap depreciation even going for worst case scenario.

also. if something even worse popped up, nothing is stopping you from turning the car in a later at say 18 months from now instead of the full 24.

so yeah.
from a financial perspective giving up a very low cost maintenance/depreciation number to go out, and most likely buy another new car... right at the beginnings of a huge depreciation hit, is absolutely an emotional decision.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

Saw this, this morning (30k jobs cuts at VW):

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/...ues-volkswagen-to-slash-30000-from-workforce/


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

dunhamjr said:


> i would say yes.
> 
> what major service costs a grand by itself? only thing i can guess is timing belt.
> unless you are adding in the cost of the stereo as well. which honestly you can get a damn decent replacement stereo for under $200 installed.
> ...


Except you are leaving out the biggest factor.... dumping money into a car when that will not increase its value. Lets say you had a car that wasn't a VW TDi, putting 2k in maintenance (tires, Timing Belt, dsg service, whatever). Your car SHOULD be worth more than a similar car that didn't have any of those items completed if you decided to sell it. With the TDI, it doesn't matter, you are throwing money away, doing any kind of work will not crease the cars value. Mine as well put the money toward another vehicle.


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

*Not reckless, just casual*

Owning a Golf TDI that's about to be bought back hasn't made me reckless, but I am a hell of a lot more casual about the car. The service light's been on for ages. I'm regretting getting tires so recently, though I had to, they were bald. A few weeks ago in a Best Buy parking lot, I got to play Santa Claus: I was backing out, and a lady in a white Passat was also backing up, didn't see me, and backed right into the driver's door. Hell of a dent. She got out, panicked and apologetic, and asked me if I wanted to call the police or just trade phone numbers. "Come around here," I said to her, and had her follow me around to the back of my car, where I pointed to the TDI badge. "See this?," I asked. "You've heard about the diesel scandal." She said she had. "Well, this is your get out of jail free card! Have a nice afternoon!" She didn't get it for a few beats, then just to see the relief wash over her face, it was priceless. 

Anyway as I got ready to go, just pulling open the front door handle popped most of the dent out. I felt like Scrooge at the end of the movie, where's he's giving away turkeys and telling everyone how clever they are. Took about a two days for me to snap back to my regular sour self....


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

AJB said:


> Except you are leaving out the biggest factor.... dumping money into a car when that will not increase its value. Lets say you had a car that wasn't a VW TDi, putting 2k in maintenance (tires, Timing Belt, dsg service, whatever). Your car SHOULD be worth more than a similar car that didn't have any of those items completed if you decided to sell it. With the TDI, it doesn't matter, you are throwing money away, doing any kind of work will not crease the cars value. Mine as well put the money toward another vehicle.


Sounds like you're being emotional.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

AJB said:


> Except you are leaving out the biggest factor.... dumping money into a car when that will not increase its value. Lets say you had a car that wasn't a VW TDi, putting 2k in maintenance (tires, Timing Belt, dsg service, whatever). Your car SHOULD be worth more than a similar car that didn't have any of those items completed if you decided to sell it. With the TDI, it doesn't matter, you are throwing money away, doing any kind of work will not crease the cars value. Mine as well put the money toward another vehicle.


and you are ignoring that you will get usage from any maintenance and repairs that you do during that time frame. potentially up to two years worth of use.

also recall. i didnt say it was the best option for all, just most. there are always exceptions. the problem is that everyone thinks that their situation is an exception. which is obviously not possible.

for example.
my situation. i bought a 'new' car over the summer for myself, but decided along the way that it really just made more sense for the time being to use that car as the TDI replacement. i still love my Saab and am not ready to get rid of it.
thus i made the decision, counter to the evidence of the better financial outcome, that the TDI buy back needs to happen asap so that we have one less car to insure.

i know i am losing money in the long run. and i made the emotional decision, that i was ok with that. if i was making the logical financial decision... either the Saab or the Mazda6 would be going away so we could keep the TDI another two years... or even better yet, I wouldnt have bought the Mazda6 in the first place.

edit:
anyways. i am done. i understand the objections. and myself plus others have shown numerous times that the better $$ choice (beyond the unknown risk of totaling the car) is to keep the car till the end of the buy back window to take advantage of the rock bottom depreciation ($500 for 5k miles) and guaranteed buy back amount.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

GTI 20v said:


> Sounds like you're being emotional.


Trust me. I'm not.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

dunhamjr said:


> and you are ignoring that you will get usage from any maintenance and repairs that you do during that time frame. potentially up to two years worth of use.
> 
> also recall. i didnt say it was the best option for all, just most. there are always exceptions. the problem is that everyone thinks that their situation is an exception. which is obviously not possible.
> 
> ...


This only pans out if you don't have to make repair so that you can "drive your tdi 2.0 to the dealer under its own power" until 2018. For me, its not worth the risk. I know why my MIL is on. I know why my DPF light flashed a few times. Both repairs are expensive. Rather put the 4k into a new car. But your right everyone is in a different situation. 

But those making blanket statements about how driving your car until the last day saves the most money are neglecting those of us who are in similar situation like me.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

dunhamjr said:


> edit:
> anyways. i am done. i understand the objections. and myself plus others have shown numerous times that the better $$ choice (beyond the unknown risk of totaling the car) is to keep the car till the end of the buy back window to take advantage of the rock bottom depreciation ($500 for 5k miles) and guaranteed buy back amount.


This argument only works if you are 100% certain you will not exceed the average of 1,042 miles/month.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

Does anyone know if they are pro-rating the mileage for the month you turn in your car?


----------



## todcp (Mar 6, 2005)

VT1.8T said:


> Does anyone know if they are pro-rating the mileage for the month you turn in your car?


They told me they will prorate up or down. In my case I will get more since I parked the car as soon as the deal was announced for fear it might get totaled and I would lose thousands.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

Hexagonal said:


> Owning a Golf TDI that's about to be bought back hasn't made me reckless, but I am a hell of a lot more casual about the car. The service light's been on for ages. I'm regretting getting tires so recently, though I had to, they were bald. A few weeks ago in a Best Buy parking lot, I got to play Santa Claus: I was backing out, and a lady in a white Passat was also backing up, didn't see me, and backed right into the driver's door. Hell of a dent. She got out, panicked and apologetic, and asked me if I wanted to call the police or just trade phone numbers. "Come around here," I said to her, and had her follow me around to the back of my car, where I pointed to the TDI badge. "See this?," I asked. "You've heard about the diesel scandal." She said she had. "Well, this is your get out of jail free card! Have a nice afternoon!" She didn't get it for a few beats, then just to see the relief wash over her face, it was priceless.
> 
> Anyway as I got ready to go, just pulling open the front door handle popped most of the dent out. I felt like Scrooge at the end of the movie, where's he's giving away turkeys and telling everyone how clever they are. Took about a two days for me to snap back to my regular sour self....


 Best post in a while inside what has now become "the documents" thread. The look on her face must've made all of this almost worth it.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

todcp said:


> They told me they will prorate up or down. In my case I will get more since I parked the car as soon as the deal was announced for fear it might get totaled and I would lose thousands.


What I meant is, say you do your buyback on the 15th of the month, will they add .5 of a month to the mileage calculation since 9/2015?


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

I received a phone call today from the claims department regarding their need for more information. So, at least I know they're working on weekends.


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

Accidental L8 apex said:


> Best post in a while inside what has now become "the documents" thread. The look on her face must've made all of this almost worth it.


Almost....


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

VT1.8T said:


> This argument only works if you are 100% certain you will not exceed the average of 1,042 miles/month.


Actually not really. If you don't exceed that monthly mileage allocation then your buy back doesn't even change. You only lose the $500 per 5k driven beyond that allocation.

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> anyways. i am done. i understand the objections. and myself plus others have shown numerous times that the better $$ choice (beyond the unknown risk of totaling the car) is to keep the car till the end of the buy back window to take advantage of the rock bottom depreciation ($500 for 5k miles) and guaranteed buy back amount.


Agree.

The totaling risk and possibility of the car currently needing some abnormal amount of repairs right now. Getting a similar car won't get you out of normal maintenance and the argument of driving high miles and the depreciation that comes with it won't be less with the car you replace the TDI with.

Another benefit of the TDI is only needing to drive it in if you later have a serious problem with the car, pretty much a warranty on the car.


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

Anyone know any inside info for north of the border? I am aware there are some dates in December, but I am surprised after the American deal has been accepted that the Canadian one didn't almost immediately follow suit.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

phospher5 said:


> Anyone know any inside info for north of the border? I am aware there are some dates in December, but I am surprised after the American deal has been accepted that the Canadian one didn't almost immediately follow suit.


We are waiting until December 19th and 20th. 

If there's no settlement by then, the judge will initiate a court process.

Even if they wanted to mimic the US deal in Canada, there would be a ton of work to do 'Canadian-ifying' the deal. Car prices, options, the website, and reams of documentation to complete.... So we are just waiting.


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

That great google docs spreadsheet the tdiclub folks have put together shows that the first actual appointments folks have been able to make to surrender their cars are coming up this week. [ it's at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NUC6wyZBZrsCWrLmBQkrcBaG_4Ao9Ni3jzPrABowY2I/edit#gid=0 , but download before sorting or you'll mess it up ]

Looks like there are about 20 folks who have actual appointments between now and the end of the month, in these states: AZ, CA, CO, GA, LA, MA, MI, OH, PA, SC, TX, VA, WA, and WI. All are cars that were bought and are completely paid off.

From what I can tell people who are just getting their offers are having to book appointments in January. Let us know if you know anything different.

And if you're one of the early ones, could you please let us know how the process went? Thanks --


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

My appointment is December 10th. But the 3rd was available. But we are probably going to have to postpone it because we can't find a replacement vehicle that is in our budget yet.

I've at the end of my rope with car dealers...

One has fine print on their website that states "all prices do not include a 10% down payment. To pay internet price you must finance 90% with our lender". Wtf? I was all set to buy a car yesterday then I saw the fine print and read the dealer reviews and it was insane. Some shady dealers. Also was working with another that was just playing games. Wouldn't come down a nickel and then told me the CPO warranty that the car is advised to have is $240 to enable it. Ugh.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

Got my offer letter on Saturday. Taking it to get notarized and returned today. I'm surprised, I figured I'd have a little more time to wait since the car still has a loan against it. Not complaining.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

I would expect this is going to be a really long, complicated process for VW to get up to the required numbers they need to take in/fix (and fix not looking promising). If they can figure out how to take in 30,000 cars a month (which seems difficult) it will take over a year, and this 30,000 a month means each of the roughly 750 dealers is taking in an average of 40 cars a month. The logistics of this, like picking up and moving 30,000 cars a month somewhere also will cause problems and I am not sure the average VW dealer has the room for a couple of months worth of drop offs.

If they are really trying to take in 30k cars a month I would expect this is one of the reasons they are short with people calling to ask about it.

Not sure numbers are correct but close?


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

tomski12 said:


> I received a phone call today from the claims department regarding their need for more information. So, at least I know they're working on weekends.


7 days a week actually!

I worked Sat am for a few hours. :thumbup:


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

.yuk. said:


> 7 days a week actually!
> 
> I worked Sat am for a few hours. :thumbup:


I applaud you for the skills to be able to do that job, can't be easy!


----------



## bzujus12 (Oct 29, 2016)

veedubBiker said:


> Got my offer letter on Saturday. Taking it to get notarized and returned today. I'm surprised, I figured I'd have a little more time to wait since the car still has a loan against it. Not complaining.


When did you finish filling all the online paperwork? Just wondering if date application entry has a big effect on when you get your appointment set up. They said that they received and reviewed all of my documentation on Nov 1st, but I haven't heard anything, or seen anything in the mail yet.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

dmorrow said:


> I would expect this is going to be a really long, complicated process for VW to get up to the required numbers they need to take in/fix (and fix not looking promising). If they can figure out how to take in 30,000 cars a month (which seems difficult) it will take over a year, and this 30,000 a month means each of the roughly 750 dealers is taking in an average of 40 cars a month. The logistics of this, like picking up and moving 30,000 cars a month somewhere also will cause problems and I am not sure the average VW dealer has the room for a couple of months worth of drop offs.
> 
> If they are really trying to take in 30k cars a month I would expect this is one of the reasons they are short with people calling to ask about it.
> 
> Not sure numbers are correct but close?


I've been saying similar in this thread for some time when it was clear that a buyback was in order. The logistics of this will be a nightmare with car carriers having to bring all these cars from dealers to central points where they will be staged for whatever VW's next task will be for them. You have to wonder if anyone has done the environmental calculation on the buyback.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

VT1.8T said:


> What I meant is, say you do your buyback on the 15th of the month, will they add .5 of a month to the mileage calculation since 9/2015?


I think I found the answer to my question in the settlement documents, according to the following, it appears they will not do as i asked as it says it is prorated to the month of buyback. If this is indeed the case, then you are better off scheduling the buyback at the beginning of the month. 

b. NADA Mileage Adjustments. Mileage adjustments to Base Values shall be
determined based on the actual mileage at the time the vehicles are surrendered in
the Buyback or brought in for an Approved Emissions Modification using the
mileage adjustment table in the September 2015 NADA Used Car Guide with an
allowance for standard NADA mileage of 12,500 miles per year, prorated
monthly from September 2015 to the month of surrender.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

spockcat said:


> The logistics of this will be a nightmare with car carriers having to bring all these cars from dealers to central points where they will be staged for whatever VW's next task will be for them.


It is unlikely any of the cars will be transported far. There's scrappers all over America. All VW needs to do is get the cars from a dealership to whatever scrapper is closest to the dealer and then have a contractor take photos proving the car was crushed. So if the contractor is an 18-wheeler driver who picks up 8 cars at a time from the dealer, his job is to pick up cars, say, once or twice a week (since that would be 35-70 cars a month, per dealer) drive them a few miles across town to a scrapper, then spend an hour or so watching and taking photos of each car as it's crushed. The whole process should be less than 1 day of work for a vehicle shipper. A good one could maybe even have it done in half a day.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> It is unlikely any of the cars will be transported far. There's scrappers all over America. All VW needs to do is get the cars from a dealership to whatever scrapper is closest to the dealer and then have a contractor take photos proving the car was crushed. So if the contractor is an 18-wheeler driver who picks up 8 cars at a time from the dealer, his job is to pick up cars, say, once or twice a week (since that would be 35-70 cars a month, per dealer) drive them a few miles across town to a scrapper, then spend an hour or so watching and taking photos of each car as it's crushed. The whole process should be less than 1 day of work for a vehicle shipper. A good one could maybe even have it done in half a day.


Article from last week below dealing with what they are doing with them. 

http://blog.caranddriver.com/whats-volkswagen-doing-with-all-those-repurchased-diesels/



> *Will VW crush every car?*
> 
> Not at all. Volkswagen can’t resell the cars it buys; nor can it export them to other countries without modifying them to be EPA compliant. Since there is no EPA-approved modification—Volkswagen has multiple deadlines through October 2017 by which it must submit final modification proposals—*the cars must be “rendered inoperable” by removing their main brain, the engine control unit (ECU).** The rest of the cars can be scrapped for parts, and those parts can be resold here or abroad, including the engines. Only the ECU, the diesel oxidation catalyst, and the diesel particulate filter must be destroyed on each car.* Where will VW keep the vehicles? *Once VW dealers take the first cars, the factory will truck the TDIs to undisclosed storage facilities across the country. There is no telling whether Volkswagen will choose to stockpile hundreds of thousands of cars as it awaits EPA approval or begin stripping them immediately.* Good news for VW owners of all stripes: The used-parts supply for late-model VWs could grow substantially, and prices potentially could fall as a result.


The above probably lowers their cost but increases the logistical problems.

I wonder how difficult it would be for a Mexican company to buy a "kit" to build their own VW TDI. Cheap labor, kit with a TDI in it, next thing you know you are selling late model TDI's. "Dismantling company, how about you not take everything completely apart, saving both of us a lot of time".


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

bzujus12 said:


> When did you finish filling all the online paperwork? Just wondering if date application entry has a big effect on when you get your appointment set up. They said that they received and reviewed all of my documentation on Nov 1st, but I haven't heard anything, or seen anything in the mail yet.


Docs were uploaded 9/23, docs marked complete 10/20, offer received 11/19, returned 11/21. Looks like there's roughly a 2-5 days turn time on getting the response to go ahead and schedule the appointment. One step closer....


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

For me: 

Docs uploaded the day after the portal was opened up
Docs approved 11/10
Official offer came in today and resubmitted with notary seal 11/21
Currently pending the schedule process which seems to be a few days after notarized approval submission.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

veedubBiker said:


> Docs were uploaded 9/23, docs marked complete 10/20, offer received 11/19, returned 11/21. Looks like there's roughly a 2-5 days turn time on getting the response to go ahead and schedule the appointment. One step closer....


I checked the portal the day after uploading the notarized docs and was able to schedule my appointment before receiving an email telling me I could do so.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

VT1.8T said:


> I checked the portal the day after uploading the notarized docs and was able to schedule my appointment before receiving an email telling me I could do so.


Interesting. I'll keep checking. Right now I just have the blue eye telling me the Final Offer document has been received and is under review.


----------



## MCTB (Dec 30, 2005)

Wow, you guys are getting information really quickly. My sister has been sitting at that little green documents accepted and reviewed stage for a while now.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

I just received my email saying,


"[email protected] 7:41 AM (6 minutes ago)

We have reviewed the documents you submitted as part of your claim with reference number *********. Currently, your application contains all of the necessary documentation to determine your eligibility. We are now determining your eligibility and will inform you whether you are eligible to participate in the VW/Audi Diesel Emissions Settlement Program."

So now I guess I wait another week or so?


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

SixpackMk3 said:


> I just received my email saying,
> 
> 
> "[email protected] 7:41 AM (6 minutes ago)
> ...


I think you're now in the 10 business day period where they will be sending your final offer letter. You'll then have to get that notarized and send it back for an appointment to get scheduled.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

I don't think the 10 days starts until they have determined you to be eligible. That's just confirming that the initial review of your paperwork shows it to be complete. 

I received the same email a month ago and have still not received my offer letter.


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

Likewise, I've had that status since 11/2


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

Same here, took about a month from "docs received" to "docs approved".


----------



## slvrsrfr (May 11, 2016)

Not surprisingly, VW has completely botched this process. 

I am in CA. The first set of forms they sent included the WRONG notary document. But of course VW didn't communicate this. The only way I found out is that my documents were repeatedly rejected after I submitted them. The reason provided was "missing pages". No explanation, no email telling CA customers that they provided the wrong form. Just "missing pages". The only way I figured it out was by calling the customer service number and speaking to not one, not two, but three reps. It was only the third rep that told me I needed to have a different document notarized—one called something like "all purpose acknowledgment". She told me to resubmit the signed offer with that document. 

So I did that, but then I got another "missing pages" notification. After more calls to customer service, I learned that I was supposed to submit not only the "all purpose acknowledgment", but also the original form that was included in the documents that VW sent. The third rep I had spoken with before told me I only needed to submit the "all purpose" one. Incredible. 

Of course VW isn't compensating us for their mistake, and the extra trip I had to take to the notary as a result.

I finally uploaded all of the docs they wanted last week, but now haven't heard anything back. 

I was planning to buy a TSI wagon but now I just don't have the stomach to do it. My feeling is that basically all car companies are criminal, but VW seems to have explicitly given TDI owners the finger in the way they are handling this, and they are not even offering us any deals to stay with them.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

slvrsrfr said:


> Not surprisingly, VW has completely botched this process.
> 
> I am in CA. The first set of forms they sent included the WRONG notary document. But of course VW didn't communicate this. The only way I found out is that my documents were repeatedly rejected after I submitted them. The reason provided was "missing pages". No explanation, no email telling CA customers that they provided the wrong form. Just "missing pages". The only way I figured it out was by calling the customer service number and speaking to not one, not two, but three reps. It was only the third rep that told me I needed to have a different document notarized—one called something like "all purpose acknowledgment". She told me to resubmit the signed offer with that document.
> 
> ...


This is a known and documented issue here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...vehicles&p=101226153&viewfull=1#post101226153


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

veedubBiker said:


> Same here, took about a month from "docs received" to "docs approved".


You said before that you're all done with the process and got your money?


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Why did VW make this process so cumbersome? Isn't the goal to have VW get all these cars off the road? Wouldn't it be in VW's best interest to just take in all the TDIs with minimal process and paperwork? I.E. just have owners roll in and drop the cars at dealers and get a check?


----------



## slvrsrfr (May 11, 2016)

spockcat said:


> This is a known and documented issue here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...vehicles&p=101226153&viewfull=1#post101226153


Yes, I was one of the first people to mention it. But the fact that it is "known" and "documented" in this forum doesn't absolve VW of responsibility for communicating their mistake to customers and telling them which forms to submit. People shouldn't have to find out about it on these forums, or by calling customer service.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

SixpackMk3 said:


> You said before that you're all done with the process and got your money?


No, I've gotten the final offer paperwork, and have it notarized and submitted back to VW. Waiting for the approval of that so I can set the date to turn the car in.


----------



## Atl-Atl (Jun 7, 2006)

GoHomePossum said:


> Why did VW make this process so cumbersome? Isn't the goal to have VW get all these cars off the road? Wouldn't it be in VW's best interest to just take in all the TDIs with minimal process and paperwork? I.E. just have owners roll in and drop the cars at dealers and get a check?


They probably made it cumbersome on purpose to avoid having every single person do everything at the exact same time and have that big of a mess to deal with. Delay a few people(like the entire state of California for example) and it helps them keep the ball rolling more steadily.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Cars without loans seem to be going the quickest. These are the easiest to process.


----------



## jwhuffandpuff (May 8, 2008)

.yuk. said:


> Cars without loans seem to be going the quickest. These are the easiest to process.


dang


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

GoHomePossum said:


> Why did VW make this process so cumbersome? Isn't the goal to have VW get all these cars off the road? Wouldn't it be in VW's best interest to just take in all the TDIs with minimal process and paperwork? I.E. just have owners roll in and drop the cars at dealers and get a check?


You have no clue. 

The process isn't really that cumbersome. You just need to prove your ownership (valid DL and title). However, if you don't have full ownership (due to a loan) or are leasing the vehicle, then the process is a bit more complicated just by nature of the ownership. Can you imagine the complications involved if every owner just rolled into a VW dealership without having their documents reviewed and approved in advance? It would be a total CF at every dealership and very few cars would get taken in.


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

.yuk. said:


> Cars without loans seem to be going the quickest. These are the easiest to process.


still haven't gotten my offer...

I actually think it's LIFO.

there's no logical order.


----------



## Parklife (Feb 23, 1999)

.yuk. said:


> Cars without loans seem to be going the quickest. These are the easiest to process.


Guess I lucked out, then. 2015 Golf Sportwagen TDI, with an active note through VW Credit. I applied when the floodgates opened on July 26, submitted documents on September 23rd, received approval on October 26, was sent an offer on November 20th (Sunday morning) at 3:42am, and had it returned and notarized at 9am yesterday morning. I'm currently under review.

Since this was a former Vortex project car, it's going to get sent to the crusher with a set of Golf R wheels, every VW accessory that was available for the '15 Sportwagen, full GTI front-end conversion with OEM LED foglamp and lighting package swap, GTD grille and badging... I suppose I could pull those off and sell them, but at this point I honestly _don't care_. I just hope someone at the dealership is able to steal the good parts off of it before it goes away.


----------



## JackStraw79 (Aug 10, 2015)

I just logged in to my account and see that they removed the "10 business days" language from the instructions that have been there for last month.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Parklife said:


> Guess I lucked out, then. 2015 Golf Sportwagen TDI, with an active note through VW Credit. I applied when the floodgates opened on July 26, submitted documents on September 23rd, received approval on October 26, was sent an offer on November 20th (Sunday morning) at 3:42am, and had it returned and notarized at 9am yesterday morning. I'm currently under review.
> 
> Since this was a former Vortex project car, it's going to get sent to the crusher with a set of Golf R wheels, every VW accessory that was available for the '15 Sportwagen, full GTI front-end conversion with OEM LED foglamp and lighting package swap, GTD grille and badging... I suppose I could pull those off and sell them, but at this point I honestly _don't care_. I just hope someone at the dealership is able to steal the good parts off of it before it goes away.


I was wondering if they were taking care of the older cars first in hopes that a fix might come out for the newer ones and owners might go for the fix instead of a buyback. Seems that it isn't the case if your 2015 with a loan got processed quickly.


----------



## todcp (Mar 6, 2005)

benjaminobscene said:


> I think you're now in the 10 business day period where they will be sending your final offer letter. You'll then have to get that notarized and send it back for an appointment to get scheduled.


Ten days is not longer the case. Now four to six weeks from the green check marks to get an offer.


----------



## Charles Devine (Aug 22, 2007)

Anyone trading Thiers in with minor cosmetic damage? I know the provisions only say drive under its own will. But the misses may have dented the front right quarter and I don't know if I'm going to be able to get it out.

-Charles


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

Charles Devine said:


> Anyone trading Thiers in with minor cosmetic damage? I know the provisions only say drive under its own will. But the misses may have dented the front right quarter and I don't know if I'm going to be able to get it out.
> 
> -Charles


 Just put a bandaid on it, you'll be fine.


----------



## Charles Devine (Aug 22, 2007)

Sump said:


> Just put a bandaid on it, you'll be fine.


Lol just want to make sure I get the full price difference, that 8K pays off the other car lmao.

-Charles


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

Charles Devine said:


> Lol just want to make sure I get the full price difference, that 8K pays off the other car lmao.
> 
> -Charles


 Ha no worries the docs are clear on it just has to get to the dealer under it's own power. I swapped a set of steelies on mine, buyback date is 12/10 :thumbup:


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Charles Devine said:


> Anyone trading Thiers in with minor cosmetic damage? I know the provisions only say drive under its own will. But the misses may have dented the front right quarter and I don't know if I'm going to be able to get it out.
> 
> -Charles





Sump said:


> Ha no worries the docs are clear on it just has to get to the dealer under it's own power. I swapped a set of steelies on mine, buyback date is 12/10 :thumbup:


In fact, you could take out a bit of frustration on it if you wanted... go to freaking town on it with a baseball bat and it doesn't make a difference to the buyback...


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

Aseras said:


> still haven't gotten my offer...
> 
> I actually think it's LIFO.
> 
> there's no logical order.


It cannot be LIFO because that is not allowed under IFRS. :laugh:


----------



## bbgunassassin (Nov 16, 2016)

*buyback*

Just got an email for my buyback offer. The e-mail reads as follows:

"The offer letter for your claim with reference number, xxxxxxxxx, for VIN xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx is now available on the Online Claims Portal.

Please click here to visit the Online Claims Portal and view and download your offer letter.

Your offer letter will include instructions concerning what steps to take if you decide to accept the offer. Please note that you will be required to sign the document in the presence of a notary in order to accept the offer and move to the next step in obtaining your selected remedy."

Now I just have to get the paperwork notarized. Anyone use one of those online notaries?


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

bbgunassassin said:


> Just got an email for my buyback offer. The e-mail reads as follows:
> 
> "The offer letter for your claim with reference number, xxxxxxxxx, for VIN xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx is now available on the Online Claims Portal.
> 
> ...


Most banks have a notary on site. I know Bank of America has one or two at all times in their branches and its free for account holders, and I think they charge like five dollars for non-account holders.


----------



## The Hater (Jun 23, 2003)

veedubBiker said:


> Most banks have a notary on site. I know Bank of America has one or two at all times in their branches and its free for account holders, and I think they charge like five dollars for non-account holders.


Call your dealership. A few that I know are providing a Notary on-site.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

bbgunassassin said:


> Just got an email for my buyback offer. The e-mail reads as follows:
> 
> "The offer letter for your claim with reference number, xxxxxxxxx, for VIN xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx is now available on the Online Claims Portal.
> 
> ...


As someone else said, most major banks have notaries and so do UPS stores. Since you are in CA, don't forget to pull up the CA Acknowledgement form on the VW Portal and have that form completed by the notary also. 

I don't see how an online notary would work since they need to witness you signing the documents.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW can use U.S. diesel settlement as revenue opportunity*



> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen Group may earn revenue from the $2 billion the company is required to spend on zero-emission vehicle projects under terms of its settlement of environmental violations with U.S. regulators and the Justice Department, according to a senior U.S. official.
> 
> The automaker's nearly $15 billion settlement to resolve violations stemming from improper diesel emissions requires it to spend $2 billion on zero-emission vehicle projects over the next decade, including $800 million in California and the remainder in the 49 other states.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Looks like we will never see VW diesels again:

*VW will not re-start U.S. diesel sales, brand boss says*



> WOLFSBURG/SAN FRANCISCO -- Volkswagen will no longer offer diesel vehicles in the U.S., its global brand chief said on Tuesday, ending speculation the company might return to the technology after its emissions scandal fades from memory.
> 
> The comments by Volkswagen brand CEO Herbert Diess, first reported by European business daily Handelsblatt and confirmed to Reuters by a VW spokesman, were the strongest yet to deny the possibility that diesel -- once a quarter of the brand's U.S. sales -- could be a part of Volkswagen's future U.S. lineup.
> 
> ...


----------



## Elite_Deforce (Nov 18, 2012)

spockcat said:


> Looks like we will never see VW diesels again:
> 
> *VW will not re-start U.S. diesel sales, brand boss says*


Wow. Hopefully this forces them to improve their gas offerings. And VR6 all things!


----------



## Hobie (Aug 30, 2001)

Anyone happen to know if the buybacks come with a bill of sale? Or if it is considered as a sale of the car? Our state gives us sale credit toward the next car's sales tax.


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

Good write up on one of the very first buybacks on TDI Club:

Buyback COMPLETED Car is now in Dealership Lot

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...&share_tid=470067&share_fid=6491&share_type=t


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

jen_madcity said:


> Good write up on one of the very first buybacks on TDI Club:
> 
> Buyback COMPLETED Car is now in Dealership Lot
> 
> ...


This was interesting:



> I forgot to mention that... Its $1000 dollar offer but its open to anyone . They are not allowed to offer specific incentives to TDI customers.


Shuts down all the talk from current owners why VW isn't making deals specifically for them.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Hobie said:


> Anyone happen to know if the buybacks come with a bill of sale? Or if it is considered as a sale of the car? Our state gives us sale credit toward the next car's sales tax.


Do you get a sales tax credit if you sell your car to a private party (getting a bill of sale) and then buy another car from a dealer or another private party? Or just a trade-in to a dealer when you are buying another car from that dealer?


----------



## mhill (Jul 7, 2016)

I turned in my 2010 Golf TDI this morning. My local dealership was professional and courteous as always.

While I worked with a representative on the paperwork, others took pictures of the car inside and out with the engine running. The entire process probably took less than half an hour.

I was told that I'll receive an email soon with instructions for providing bank account information for the electronic funds transfer. I haven't seen that email yet, but I'll update my post when I receive it._ (See edit below.)_

Overall, it was a painless process and I was treated well.


Edit: I received the email for EFT the evening of the 24th (one day after turning the car in). I was directed to the Chase Payments site, where I created an account and provided my bank routing number and account number. I accepted the payment and got the following message (I changed amount to xxxxx.xx):

_The amount xxxxx.xx USD will be sent to your bank. You should see the funds in your account in 1-2 business days.​_


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

spockcat said:


> Do you get a sales tax credit if you sell your car to a private party (getting a bill of sale) and then buy another car from a dealer or another private party? Or just a trade-in to a dealer when you are buying another car from that dealer?


Yes


----------



## Hobie (Aug 30, 2001)

spockcat said:


> Do you get a sales tax credit if you sell your car to a private party (getting a bill of sale) and then buy another car from a dealer or another private party? Or just a trade-in to a dealer when you are buying another car from that dealer?


Yes, its any sale or trade in. We just have to present a proof of sale. If I sell this car within 6 months before or after buying a new one, that sale amount comes off the purchase price of the new one for calculating sales tax. 
Side note, I've already bought a new one, so I'm a little more pressed to ensure I get a proper bill of sale.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Hobie said:


> Yes, its any sale or trade in. We just have to present a proof of sale. If I sell this car within 6 months before or after buying a new one, that sale amount comes off the purchase price of the new one for calculating sales tax.
> Side note, I've already bought a new one, so I'm a little more pressed to ensure I get a proper bill of sale.


A few posts above there was a link to someone who completed a buyback today. If you read that thread, you see you get a receipt by email. 

I see your state has its own form. You might want to download, print it out and bring it with you for the VW rep to complete.


----------



## Hobie (Aug 30, 2001)

spockcat said:


> I see your state has its own form. You might want to download, print it out and bring it with you for the VW rep to complete.


Fantastic, thanks! I'm taking that bad boy with me.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

I didn't receive any notification, but I just checked the online portal and my offer letter was there. It's the same amount calculated by the online tools a couple of users published here. I believe my docs were approved 10/21, and I own my car. So it took about 30 days, possibly fewer since I hadn't been checking the portal with any regularity.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

Okay, the tags that show up for this thread are pretty amusing:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## slvrsrfr (May 11, 2016)

So frustrated with VW in CA. The mistakes they've made have already been documented here: providing the wrong notary form and not properly informing customers about this, which caused many of us to have to visit a notary more than once and upload the docs several times, without knowing why they were declined.

I finally uploaded the full 8 pages on Wednesday of last week, and.... crickets. I am 100% certain they're correct now. VW was always very quick to respond and say "missing pages" when the docs weren't correct (their fault, not mine), but now that I've uploaded the correct ones, radio silence. 

For those of you that have already completed the buyback, how long did it take for you to get an appointment scheduled after uploading the correct docs?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

slvrsrfr said:


> So frustrated with VW in CA. The mistakes they've made have already been documented here: providing the wrong notary form and not properly informing customers about this, which caused many of us to have to visit a notary more than once and upload the docs several times, without knowing why they were declined.
> 
> I finally uploaded the full 8 pages on Wednesday of last week, and.... crickets. I am 100% certain they're correct now. VW was always very quick to respond and say "missing pages" when the docs weren't correct (their fault, not mine), but now that I've uploaded the correct ones, radio silence.
> 
> For those of you that have already completed the buyback, how long did it take for you to get an appointment scheduled after uploading the correct docs?


When my son sent in his docs from CA, he did as you say, not send in the CA Acknowledgement form. When we found out VW needed that for CA customers, he ADDED the CA Acknowledgement to the original docs which also had the last page notarized and sent all 8 pages again. That went through very fast for him once the CA Acknowledgement was added.


----------



## slvrsrfr (May 11, 2016)

spockcat said:


> When my son sent in his docs from CA, he did as you say, not send in the CA Acknowledgement form. When we found out VW needed that for CA customers, he ADDED the CA Acknowledgement to the original docs which also had the last page notarized and sent all 8 pages again. That went through very fast for him once the CA Acknowledgement was added.


Thanks. That's what I did but it's been over a week and I still haven't received an invitation to set up an appointment.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

slvrsrfr said:


> Thanks. That's what I did but it's been over a week and I still haven't received an invitation to set up an appointment.


You have a loan on the car?


----------



## Mike! (Jun 18, 2002)

spockcat said:


> Looks like we will never see VW diesels again:
> 
> *VW will not re-start U.S. diesel sales, brand boss says*


And the news now follows in Canada.

http://driving.ca/volvo/auto-news/news/volkswagens-diesels-wont-return-to-canada-for-2017

GM, meanwhile, is celebrating and waiting to see if their move in on the diesel market pays off.


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

slvrsrfr said:


> how long did it take for you to get an appointment scheduled after uploading the correct docs?


For me, 24 hours.


----------



## boogetyboogety (Jun 22, 2016)

Mike! said:


> And the news now follows in Canada.
> 
> http://driving.ca/volvo/auto-news/news/volkswagens-diesels-wont-return-to-canada-for-2017
> 
> GM, meanwhile, is celebrating and waiting to see if their move in on the diesel market pays off.


Can't tell millions from billions, but I guess we can trust their reporting. :wave:


----------



## slvrsrfr (May 11, 2016)

spockcat said:


> You have a loan on the car?


No, I do not have a loan.


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

Okay, it's Friday as I write this. The first buyback appointments were Wednesday, and I happened to be in a local VW dealership (buying a GTI). I asked to be introduced to the buyback specialist--she was a nice person, waiting for her one appointment of the day. We chatted about the process a bit. It turns out she'd never really seen a TDI before, so I took her out and showed her mine.[!] She gets it that VW has been bad about communicating to all of us, and that the "10 day" business has led all of us to expect this process would be way quicker than it has been. Still, I don't think she has any clue what's about to hit her. I asked her if she had a thick skin... 

Things I learned from her: 
- the condition of the car really, really doesn't matter. In fact she suggested (take this with a grain of salt) that the vehicle doesn't even have to arrive under its own power, as long as the engine turns over. They have to take a photo of the tach while the car is on. 
- at least some of the cars are for now staying on the dealers' lots, counting on a fix being approved, so the dealer can sell them as used cars in the future. To me this seems like wishful thinking. Maybe VWoA is just telling dealers this to get them to put up with the process. 
- the company she's working for is still hiring. Could be an interesting job actually. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

fyi, one of the Wednesday buyback people has been writing about his experience in detail on tdiclub.com. He had his EFT money delivered to him this morning (Nov. 25, 2 days later)

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=470067


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

Called because I was told I was supposed to have an offer by the end of this week, spoke with a very polite Abby who indicated that the 10 days actually means 20 days . Working in the court system myself I asked if that came down from the judge or if that was internal policy to which she answered the judge. I inquired for records that these lines are recorded and she confirmed. Indicated it was actually 20 business days from nov 1 and with holidays we are on "day 18" and I *should* have my offer in the portal by mid week next week. More hurry up and wait.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

ROTFLMAO! Someone on reddit turned this in just like this with no problem :laugh::laugh::laugh:










https://www.reddit.com/r/tdi/comments/5evfvu/my_buyback_is_done/


----------



## slvrsrfr (May 11, 2016)

I got the runaround for weeks from VW because they gave us the wrong notary docs in CA. After finally sorting that out, I submitted the correct docs last Wednesday (9 days ago). Still haven't heard back. I own the car outright. 

Funny how they told me my docs were "missing pages" within 24 hours of submitting (without telling me why—the reason was that they provided the wrong docs!), but when I submit the right docs I don't hear from anyone for almost 10 days.


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

Mazda 3s said:


> ROTFLMAO! Someone on reddit turned this in just like this with no problem :laugh::laugh::laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's actually kind of pathetic. Think it's real?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Nicefeet (Dec 29, 2009)

Hexagonal said:


> That's actually kind of pathetic. Think it's real?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


These cars are going to end up cubed. So I don't think it matters


----------



## jwhuffandpuff (May 8, 2008)

why would you not keep the alloys :rofl:

im taking the alloys off mine and putting on my winter steelies

couple extra bucks on CL will be nice


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Haha, just noticed the back bumper is coming off that Golf as well!


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Nicefeet said:


> These cars are going to end up cubed. So I don't think it matters


I thought that as well, but according to this article in Car and Driver they aren't all supposed to be crushed.



Car and Driver said:


> Will VW crush every car?
> 
> *Not at all. This isn’t the 2009 “Cash for Clunkers” program*, in which the government paid $3 billion to have nearly 700,000 used cars destroyed, all in a desperate effort to drive up new-car sales. Volkswagen can’t resell the cars it buys; nor can it export them to other countries without modifying them to be EPA compliant. Since there is no EPA-approved modification—Volkswagen has multiple deadlines through October 2017 by which it must submit final modification proposals—the cars must be “rendered inoperable” by removing their main brain, the engine control unit (ECU). The rest of the cars can be scrapped for parts, and those parts can be resold here or abroad, including the engines. Only the ECU, the diesel oxidation catalyst, and the diesel particulate filter must be destroyed on each car.
> 
> ...


----------



## URSledgehammer (Oct 3, 2008)

Finally accepted in DE and got my final approval yesterday. Earliest turn in date the 28th of December. I am a bit aggravated but it is what it is. 

If someone wants heavy duty VW mats and a UVS sunshade for an 09 Jetta nearby I will sell them to you on the cheap.


----------



## Chilcoot (Mar 19, 2014)

P-Body said:


> I'm trying to understand if VW got a good deal, a raw deal, or the right deal here.


VW believes it got a good deal with this settlement. They settled because they viewed the terms of settlement as preferable to not settling. I think VW's smart and is probably right about that.

Though if VW knew this summer that our EPA was about to become a lot less competent, they might have held out.


----------



## Nicefeet (Dec 29, 2009)

AZGolf said:


> I thought that as well, but according to this article in Car and Driver they aren't all supposed to be crushed.


I just can't see the 650 VW dealers holding on to hundreds of cars a piece while waiting for a fix or a truck to pick them up. I also can't see dealers investing the time to fix said cars. It's much easier to cube them and move on.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Nicefeet said:


> I just can't see the 650 VW dealers holding on to hundreds of cars a piece while waiting for a fix or a truck to pick them up. I also can't see dealers investing the time to fix said cars. It's much easier to cube them and move on.


The dealers don't hold on to them nor fix them. The article states "Only the ECU, the diesel oxidation catalyst, and the diesel particulate filter must be destroyed on each car." The dealer takes the cars in for the buyback, but the dealerships don't own them. They hold on to them before something else happens to them, such as removing the 3 prescribed parts listed (which should only take a few hours, as it doesn't need to be done cleanly, it could be done with a sawzall in an hour a car) and then auctioning the car to a parts recycler. The parts recyclers won't pay as much for cars that are in crap condition.


----------



## VadGTI (Feb 24, 2000)

If someone in SoCal wants to sell me their Mk6 HIDs and related equipment prior to turn-in, lemme know . Also, Monster Mats (mine are wasted) and an RCD510 (for my mom's Passat, will replace with 310 if needed) would be nice .


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

A salesman at a Seattle-area VW dealership told me that they have just started to accept cars in the buyback process. He claims that the dealership is planning to obtain some of the fixable TDIs, the low-mileage ones in good condition, and resell them. It was not clear to me whether the fixes will be done in their shop or at another location. Obviously, the resale could only happen after a fix procedure was approved by CARB and EPA. So perhaps some of those cars are being put in temporary storage by VW or a third party.

Has anyone else confirmed this?


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

Let's not forget the $1.8(ish) million that each dealership has/is going to receive as a result of their own "settlement" with VWOA over the scandal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

julianv said:


> A salesman at a Seattle-area VW dealership told me that they have just started to accept cars in the buyback process. He claims that the dealership is planning to obtain some of the fixable TDIs, the low-mileage ones in good condition, and resell them. It was not clear to me whether the fixes will be done in their shop or at another location. Obviously, the resale could only happen after a fix procedure was approved by CARB and EPA. So perhaps some of those cars are being put in temporary storage by VW or a third party.
> 
> Has anyone else confirmed this?


Given the fairly huge number of owners who filed for buyback in the early stages of this process (and VW's trouble keeping up with the paperwork! - they're in catch-up mode) there are going to be a LARGE number of these cars that have been bought back prior to a fix being approved (and it isn't guaranteed that this will ever happen). We are only a couple of days into it right now, but these bought-back cars are going to start showing up somewhere.

VW has dreams of fixing and reselling all of them - someone found an Audi training video a while back which showed more or less what the "fix" involved (for a generation-1, which accounts for most of the cars). But I suspect they are underestimating the effect that a flood of "fixed" TDI cars will have on the marketplace. Oversupply means they will only be able to be sold at fire-sale prices. The market for these cars when new was around 60,000 per year. Used and "certified pre-owned", don't know, but let's say as much again. Factor in the destruction of the TDI brand name and that a fair number of former TDI owners will have to buy something else to replace their bought-back cars, and a fair chunk of that TDI market will be vaporized.

My guess has been, and remains, that IF a fix gets approved by the authorities for all three generations, they'll fix and resell perhaps a third of them. Anything 2009 or 2010 ... Scrunch. Anything with more than 100,000 miles ... Flatten. Anything with non-trivial body damage, interior damage, missing parts, "check engine" warning on, clogged DPF, missing DPF due to "emissions delete", significant non-stock modifications ... Shred. Bought back early in the process so that the "fix" is not yet approved for that specific vehicle generation so that months of storage is foreseen ... Cube. The late models with lower mileage and no "customization" that they would be able to sell as CPO are the ones they should hopefully be able to fix and resell. A lot of those are gen 3 with a much more complicated "fix", though.


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

Then again, if a fix is approved, then VW will be able to export them. 

That opens up all sorts of possibilities for VW.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Well I bought a new replacement vehicle. My buyback is in two weeks. Look for my part-out thread.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

biturbowagon said:


> Then again, if a fix is approved, then VW will be able to export them.
> 
> That opens up all sorts of possibilities for VW.


I was also thinking can Trump change the EPA laws? Maybe all these car will become legal again?


----------



## Astronaut3000 (Sep 9, 2002)

VadGTI said:


> If someone in SoCal wants to sell me their Mk6 HIDs and related equipment prior to turn-in, lemme know . Also, Monster Mats (mine are wasted) and an RCD510 (for my mom's Passat, will replace with 310 if needed) would be nice .


PM sent. :thumbup:


----------



## CK98Beeetle (Oct 19, 2002)

Well my parents are happy. And I'm very happy for them. They took the money from the buyback and bought two new Audis. The dealership is bending over backwards for them. My dad went from an A3 TDI to a bright white 2017 Audi TT and my mom went from her Passat TDI to a red 2017 Audi A4 Allroad. Their garage is going to be looking extra pretty this holiday season. 

And from what it sounds like, the dealerships are taking some hits to help keep customers satisfied and within the VW family. My guess is the dealerships aren't happy about it but they're willing to cut their losses to stay in business.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

CK98Beeetle said:


> Well my parents are happy. And I'm very happy for them. They took the money from the buyback and bought two new Audis. The dealership is bending over backwards for them. My dad went from an A3 TDI to a bright white 2017 Audi TT and my mom went from her Passat TDI to a red 2017 Audi A4 Allroad. Their garage is going to be looking extra pretty this holiday season.
> 
> And from what it sounds like, the dealerships are taking some hits to help keep customers satisfied and within the VW family. My guess is the dealerships aren't happy about it but they're willing to cut their losses to stay in business.


I'm having the opposite experience. I went to the local Audi dealership yesterday to look into a replacement for my A3. I ended up talking to a sales manager because I was inquiring about the availability of manual A4's (February-ish) and mentioned that I was surprised at the complete lack of incentives for TDI drivers right now. He basically said that I should be happy with the settlement and that the extra funds on top of the buyback were the 'incentive'. I said, uh, no, that's the settlement for the federal class-action lawsuit that resulted from VW/Audi's fraud. It's certainly not an 'incentive' and wasn't granted to us out of generosity. He then went on to tell me how they don't have to discount or incentivize their cars to sell them since it's such a hot brand. 

I know it was just one sales manager and he's not necessarily representative of the brand, but that really put me off. I was already on the fence and am now leaning even further away from the VW family.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

So, my paperwork has been in since 9/17 and was reviewed on 10/13. I just spoke to the claims hotline. They indicated my offer letter was approved on 11/19. Offer letter has not been sent. Very annoying.


----------



## Nicefeet (Dec 29, 2009)

julianv said:


> A salesman at a Seattle-area VW dealership told me that they have just started to accept cars in the buyback process. He claims that the dealership is planning to obtain some of the fixable TDIs, the low-mileage ones in good condition, and resell them. It was not clear to me whether the fixes will be done in their shop or at another location. Obviously, the resale could only happen after a fix procedure was approved by CARB and EPA. So perhaps some of those cars are being put in temporary storage by VW or a third party.
> 
> Has anyone else confirmed this?


It would be pretty foolish if VW allows these to be resold after a fix. The only thing that will do is eat into sales of existing CPO VW vehicles. I'm sure that a lot of non-TDI owners that would be pissed if VW floods the market with thousands of vehicles further depressing values. Why not cube them all and be done with it?


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Nicefeet said:


> It would be pretty foolish if VW allows these to be resold after a fix. The only thing that will do is eat into sales of existing CPO VW vehicles. I'm sure that a lot of non-TDI owners that would be pissed if VW floods the market with thousands of vehicles further depressing values. Why not cube them all and be done with it?


If VW is sitting on hundreds of thousands of cars that are worth virtually nothing crushed and they can sell each one as "salvage parts" car or sell it to someone that fixes it and they end up with $2000 per car it would be foolish to not consider it. This could be worth a billion dollars to them and it is unlikely they would ever make this much on the remaining owners with new car sales to them. Even then, these remaining owners can do the buyback and get out of them.

Then no way they would ever fix all of them (some will be in bad condition and pretty old) so part out some and maybe fix the best ones (if ever possible).


----------



## paul99 (Oct 1, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> If VW is sitting on hundreds of thousands of cars that are worth virtually nothing crushed and they can sell each one as "salvage parts" car or sell it to someone that fixes it and they end up with $2000 per car it would be foolish to not consider it. This could be worth a billion dollars to them and it is unlikely they would ever make this much on the remaining owners with new car sales to them. Even then, these remaining owners can do the buyback and get out of them.
> 
> Then no way they would ever fix all of them (some will be in bad condition and pretty old) so part out some and maybe fix the best ones (if ever possible).



They will strip all cars and sell them as parts, there was article posted in media couple weeks ago everything will be resold as parts except ECU


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

Nicefeet said:


> It would be pretty foolish if VW allows these to be resold after a fix. The only thing that will do is eat into sales of existing CPO VW vehicles. I'm sure that a lot of non-TDI owners that would be pissed if VW floods the market with thousands of vehicles further depressing values. Why not cube them all and be done with it?


But it would let them sell a TDI, which is what a lot of VW owners want as a replacement. I know I'll be looking for one if the fix ever gets approved. Also, how fast would these fixes be done? I doubt all these cars will come out at the same time.

I know that before the Common Rail TDI came out, a 5 year old used PD TDI was nearly MSRP. There is a steady demand, and with new cars out of the picture, the price is going to rise. A year from now, the VW buyout amount might be less than the current market price. I don't see how non-TDI owners are affected.


----------



## Nicefeet (Dec 29, 2009)

dmorrow said:


> If VW is sitting on hundreds of thousands of cars that are worth virtually nothing crushed and they can sell each one as "salvage parts" car or sell it to someone that fixes it and they end up with $2000 per car it would be foolish to not consider it. This could be worth a billion dollars to them and it is unlikely they would ever make this much on the remaining owners with new car sales to them. Even then, these remaining owners can do the buyback and get out of them.
> 
> Then no way they would ever fix all of them (some will be in bad condition and pretty old) so part out some and maybe fix the best ones (if ever possible).


IMO the risk is too great to allow them to be sold as "parts cars" to licensed salvage yards. I'm pretty sure they'd all end up in Russia or Lithuania. I imagine VW probably wants this PR headache gone as soon as possible. Once they're cubed the any future liability or need for a fix for that VIN is over and done. Plus if these cars all started getting parted out at once the salvage parts value would be decimated. It's not like they're Toyota pickups where every part of the buffalo gets used. It's been my experience that late model VW's don't do nearly as well as other makes when it comes to parting out.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Nicefeet said:


> IMO the risk is too great to allow them to be sold as "parts cars" to licensed salvage yards. I'm pretty sure they'd all end up in Russia or Lithuania. I imagine VW probably wants this PR headache gone as soon as possible. Once they're cubed the any future liability or need for a fix for that VIN is over and done. Plus if these cars all started getting parted out at once the salvage parts value would be decimated. It's not like they're Toyota pickups where every part of the buffalo gets used. It's been my experience that late model VW's don't do nearly as well as other makes when it comes to parting out.


It says right in the court documents that the cars can't be exported unless brought up to emissions standards. So that won't happen...


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

automobiliben said:


> It says right in the court documents that the cars can't be exported unless brought up to emissions standards. So that won't happen...


Bingo.


----------



## jen_madcity (Aug 9, 2015)

For what it's worth (??), my settlement specialist said that my car, and the others bought back in this area, are headed to a large storage facility in the Chicago area where they will sit awaiting an approved fix. Once (if) that happens, the original selling dealer has first dibs on reclaiming the car, doing the fix, and reselling as used. Time will tell. I'd certainly rather see that scenario play out, at least from an environmental standpoint, than see them all cubed. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

jen_madcity said:


> For what it's worth (??), my settlement specialist said that my car, and the others bought back in this area, are headed to a large storage facility in the Chicago area where they will sit awaiting an approved fix. Once (if) that happens, the original selling dealer has first dibs on reclaiming the car, doing the fix, and reselling as used. Time will tell. I'd certainly rather see that scenario play out, at least from an environmental standpoint, than see them all cubed.


Exactly the process that was in that leaked Audi video from a couple weeks back... 

I still have my doubts on a fix... but seeing as we don't have our settlement in Canada, and I don't really fancy trying to replace my car with something else... I am starting to lean towards a fix idea...


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

who else is still waiting for document approval?
They said they have till end of novemebr to complete this...3 days including today left
and I still hve the eye of horus staring at me. Buy back date was supposed to be dec 13...thats far out the window now probably.


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

Mon 28 Nov: got my offer letter this morning about 10:00 am. The letter was dated 15 November fwiw. Signed, notarized, and uploaded. Now I've got the Blue Eye on Step 17., Validating. I'll report back when I'm allowed to schedule the buyback. The TDI reddit says the scheduling lag is now one month plus....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

PolishSasquatch said:


> who else is still waiting for document approval?
> They said they have till end of novemebr to complete this...3 days including today left
> and I still hve the eye of horus staring at me. Buy back date was supposed to be dec 13...thats far out the window now probably.


My notarized acceptance letter was uploaded last Tuesday. I expect that the Thanksgiving holiday may have delayed things by a day or two. ...patiently waiting...opcorn:


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

My documents were approved last Tuesday. I'll be waiting forever since I have a non VW credit loan, and where I am located. Rather annoying now.


----------



## turbokirby (Sep 5, 2014)

So once you accept the offer and submit do you stop making payments since the buyout number should be from the date noted?


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

.yuk. said:


> My documents were approved last Tuesday. I'll be waiting forever since I have a non VW credit loan, and where I am located. Rather annoying now.


You mean you aren't handling your own claim? LOL


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

turbokirby said:


> So once you accept the offer and submit do you stop making payments since the buyout number should be from the date noted?


The offer letter states "....please note you are expected to continue to make your loan payments until you accept your offer, schedule an appointment, and complete your remedy..."


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

You are to continue to make payments. -That said, VW is pretty lenient on making partial payments if you call them with a story.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

aj4066 said:


> My notarized acceptance letter was uploaded last Tuesday. I expect that the Thanksgiving holiday may have delayed things by a day or two. ...patiently waiting...opcorn:


Same here, if by patiently waiting, you mean compulsively logging into the claims portal and checking status every half hour opcorn:


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

veedubBiker said:


> Same here, if by patiently waiting, you mean compulsively logging into the claims portal and checking status every half hour opcorn:


I thought I was the only one. -and my email because I've gotten an email notification every time there was an update to the portal.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

FYI, our buyback offer has arrived, we are now at step 16 on the claims page.

basically 2pm Pacific on 11/28.
for the people worried about geography (Cali and VA getting priority) or a bank note (slowing things down)... i am in Seattle and we have a non-VW loan on the car.

IMO getting to this point at basically 1 month post court approval, not really that bad.

now just to triple check with the wife we are sticking to the ASAP buyback (vs waiting 18-20 months then doing a buyback).
then to walk through the paperwork signatures, notary process, and upload it all back in... i foresee this taking till at least Wednesday when both the wife and I can even get to a notary together.

added:
i am not 100%, but we are likely to run into some final numbers flipping around since our payment is due on the 5th (payoff amount dated 12-12), and i am quite certain we won't get a return appointment that quickly according to the timing others in here have been posting.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

dunhamjr said:


> now just to triple check with the wife we are sticking to the ASAP buyback (vs waiting 18-20 months then doing a buyback).


Surely not an emotional decision I presume?


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

VT1.8T said:


> Surely not an emotional decision I presume?


:laugh:

for the wife, yes a little. she is mad they lied and wants to get things over with.

for me no... we have 5 cars for 2 drivers. time to thin the herd, so if we DO keep the TDI... then likely the Saab will be leaving. no where near the monetary equivalent... but one less car to insure and maintain.

if i had waited or not bought the Mazda6 over summer... then we would likely be keeping the TDI for a late 2018 buyback instead.

and i am still convinced that KEEPING the tdi for a 2018 buyback is actually still the better overall $$ decision.
instead of driving an essentially depreciation free tdi for the next two years, my wife will be depreciating (at an unknown rate) my Mazda6.

oh well.


----------



## Charles Devine (Aug 22, 2007)

Starting to get a little bit pissed now, I've had this for the past 25 days now.










I had everything turned in the day after documents were due.... Am I missing something here or what? Nothing has come in the mail from them, no calls, emails, texts, nothing.

-Charles


----------



## dvandentop (Jun 8, 2011)

Uploaded notarized docs last Tuesday still waiting


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Ricky Bobby said:


> You mean you aren't handling your own claim? LOL


You shush. :laugh::banghead:


----------



## shuko (Jul 24, 2007)

Charles Devine said:


> Starting to get a little bit pissed now, I've had this for the past 25 days now.
> 
> I had everything turned in the day after documents were due.... Am I missing something here or what? Nothing has come in the mail from them, no calls, emails, texts, nothing.
> 
> -Charles


You're in the same boat as me, and a whole bunch of other people. The last e-mail I got basically repeated what's on that screen.

We just sit and wait for that next email - the "your offer is available via the claims portal" one - when we'll scramble to complete documentation, get things notarized, upload, then start waiting again.

Given that the latest turn-in dates seem to be late December, expect to be sitting with your TDI until Q1 2017.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Charles Devine said:


> Starting to get a little bit pissed now, I've had this for the past 25 days now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have you uploaded a title front and back?


----------



## Charles Devine (Aug 22, 2007)

shuko said:


> You're in the same boat as me, and a whole bunch of other people. The last e-mail I got basically repeated what's on that screen.
> 
> We just sit and wait for that next email - the "your offer is available via the claims portal" one - when we'll scramble to complete documentation, get things notarized, upload, then start waiting again.
> 
> Given that the latest turn-in dates seem to be late December, expect to be sitting with your TDI until Q1 2017.





spockcat said:


> Have you uploaded a title front and back?


Well apparently posting something like my statement above has either brought me luck or VW is monitoring this thread because I just got the email this morning. All I have to do is get my documents notarized by work today and upload them.  

I fully expect to be told I have to wait a month to bring my vehicle in which hopefully is before my February registration time.

-Charles


----------



## slvrsrfr (May 11, 2016)

Charles Devine said:


> Well apparently posting something like my statement above has either brought me luck or VW is monitoring this thread because I just got the email this morning. All I have to do is get my documents notarized by work today and upload them.
> 
> I fully expect to be told I have to wait a month to bring my vehicle in which hopefully is before my February registration time.
> 
> -Charles


I submitted my notarized documents two weeks ago and still haven't heard back. I've called the customer service number a few times and they say "the only information we have is that your documents are under review". 

I called this morning and a recording said, "I'm sorry, we can't answer your call right now. Please try again later." It's 9:10am PT, so they're not closed.

This is getting ridiculous. VW botched it in CA, sending owners the wrong notary forms and not notifying us when they did. We had to figure it out on our own. Now that I've submitted the right forms, they ignore me. Typical.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Charles Devine said:


> Well apparently posting something like my statement above has either brought me luck or VW is monitoring this thread because I just got the email this morning. All I have to do is get my documents notarized by work today and upload them.
> 
> I fully expect to be told I have to wait a month to bring my vehicle in which hopefully is before my February registration time.
> 
> -Charles


I asked about the title because when my son did his online, it asked for 4 documents. The two that you show and the front and back of the title. His vehicle was owned by him without a loan. Perhaps yours is a loan or lease situation. But your picture just made me wonder if the title was keeping you from getting approved. No need for the . Just trying to help.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

slvrsrfr said:


> I submitted my notarized documents two weeks ago and still haven't heard back. I've called the customer service number a few times and they say "the only information we have is that your documents are under review".
> 
> I called this morning and a recording said, "I'm sorry, we can't answer your call right now. Please try again later." It's 9:10am PT, so they're not closed.
> 
> This is getting ridiculous. VW botched it in CA, sending owners the wrong notary forms and not notifying us when they did. We had to figure it out on our own. Now that I've submitted the right forms, they ignore me. Typical.


 I would talk to a manager maybe? Between submitting my notarized documents and getting approval to schedule an appointment was about 6 business hours.


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

Charles Devine said:


> Well apparently posting something like my statement above has either brought me luck or VW is monitoring this thread because I just got the email this morning. All I have to do is get my documents notarized by work today and upload them.
> 
> I fully expect to be told I have to wait a month to bring my vehicle in which hopefully is before my February registration time.
> 
> -Charles


Maybe I should send an email to the attorneys for the class because I've been sitting on 2 green checks since 11/2 and VW credit just took another payment as this thing sits unused in the garage...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

When you call the 1800 number, the automated message now says "can take up to 4 weeks once submitted". -basically STFU until its been 4 weeks. :banged:


----------



## AndersonT (Nov 29, 2016)

Submitted my notarized documents Nov. 17th, still patiently waiting.


----------



## Charles Devine (Aug 22, 2007)

spockcat said:


> I asked about the title because when my son did his online, it asked for 4 documents. The two that you show and the front and back of the title. His vehicle was owned by him without a loan. Perhaps yours is a loan or lease situation. But your picture just made me wonder if the title was keeping you from getting approved. No need for the . Just trying to help.


Hey bud the  wasn't against you it was against VW haha for ironic timing :beer:. Sorry I didn't even realize I didn't reply to your post so I can see why you took it as that. To answer you though it is financed through VW Credit so I know that wasn't the issue.

-Charles


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

This is starting to get annoying for me too - Uploaded all docs with blue Eyes on 11/2, review complete 10 days later, and been sitting at green check marks ever since. I have another car lined up and the dealer is going to laugh if I ask them to hold it for me for 2 months - and no I don't want to go and just buy it now because the small amount we would be financing I would not want to be a larger minimum monthly payment because of taking a higher loan amount up front -


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

and i say it again. *have some patience.*

there are quite LITERALLY millions of moving parts in this process. buyers, sellers, lessee's, single people, married people, banks and other lien-holders... you have to understand that and be patient.

getting pissy and calling into managers, or the case lawyers isn't going to expedite anything.
even if it did SOMETHING, its likely only that VW might face an additional pittance of a fine for being delayed, but that won't make your paperwork get approved any faster. since they can easily show good faith in attempting to work this on their end as quick as possible.

this process was NEVER going to be start to finish in 20 days no matter how ambitious, highly staffed, or efficient the process was.
people flipping out at being pending for a month, or even WAY less... just need to calm down.

you arent the only ones trying to get this done, and arent the only ones delayed. and VW, et al, are obviously working as fast as they can to get this thing running and done for everyone involved.

why the hell do you think the court allowed a timeline for this whole process at 28 months to happen?
because its hundreds of thousands of cars and millions of moving parts... they all take time to put in motion and complete.

now, that said. i personally do have my final docs. so i am on the downward slope.
we got them notarized today. 
i will scan and send them today/wednesday... but even at that my assumption is that i will not be fully done with this till almost christmas. and you know what, that is fine.

but really taking 2-3 months SHOULD be fine with everyone. and yes i still say that even as i am in the same boat as a lot of people. 

i have a car i cannot/will not drive (in my case, cannot as the tabs expire tomorrow). no reason to pay $100+ in licensing to drive maybe 1 more month.

yes i still have a VW loan i have to pay... but NO VW is not *"taking"* my money, i owe that money for the loan agreement i made. plus the money will be MOSTLY returned to me (minus interest of course, i borrowed the money thats not the banks fault) when the buyback completes. sucks for now but not end of anyones world. 

and YES... i also bought a replacement already, so now i have two loans to pay (boohoo)... this was MY CHOICE as a big boy adult, no one made me (or you) do it. so if you are complaining about this, you can look to the mirror for who to blame.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

dunhamjr said:


> ... but even at that my assumption is that i will not be fully done with this till almost christmas. and you know what, that is fine.


And at this point, even that is probably optimistic. My offer letter was notarized and uploaded on 11/21. I'm still waiting on approvals for those docs to go in and schedule an appointment. At this time, with the lead times being reported on getting appointments, I'm planning on not being able to return the car until some time in January, with the Christmas holiday in there. It sure sucks, but I also understand that my impatience doesn't mean the process is taking an unreasonable amount of time.


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

dunhamjr said:


> yes i still have a VW loan i have to pay... but NO VW is not *"taking"* my money, i owe that money for the loan agreement i made. plus the money will be MOSTLY returned to me (minus interest of course, i borrowed the money thats not the banks fault) when the buyback completes. sucks for now but not end of anyones world.


VW has been ORDERED by the court to buy back the vehicle from me as that is the option I chose with a timeline they agreed to in a settlement and then * set by the Judge. * For VW credit to take another penny of interest since the official ruling is stealing my money. I don't mind paying principal since I'll get every bit of that back. Not to mention the insurance and registration costs they are requiring me to maintain to drive the car to the dealership under its own TDI power. I have had the car ready for delivery to their facility since the settlement was approved. They're the ones dragging their feet getting me my money.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

dunhamjr said:


> and i say it again. *have some patience.*


I think you are missing a small point. This isn't our fault. 

In the meantime, hundreds of thousands of people are in the process of finding another vehicle. -If this is something that will take 60 days to process, it sure would be nice to know that. People are uploading documents with the thought it will happen relatively quick because they weren't told otherwise. As others mentioned, they are quick to respond when something isnt correct, but getting an approval is taking some time.

BTW, is anyone else laughing at VW's $1000 loyalty money? :facepalm:


----------



## Beaumont Livingston (Nov 14, 2016)

Turned my JSW in today in Phoenix. I did get an email about the time zone problem and a reminder 24 hours before the appointment. Car hesitated before starting this morning and then the coolant warning went off a block from the dealership. I brought the signed odometer disclosure and limited power of attorney but when I got there the ambassador had a set ready for me to sign. After entering all the info in the computer he told me I would be getting a total that was $5,000 less than I expected. Turns out he had pulled the wrong car up and had to redo it. He remarked that he hoped he could pull the other car back up when that owner came in.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Beaumont Livingston said:


> Turned my JSW in today in Phoenix. I did get an email about the time zone problem and a reminder 24 hours before the appointment. Car hesitated before starting this morning and then the coolant warning went off a block from the dealership. I brought the signed odometer disclosure and limited power of attorney but when I got there the ambassador had a set ready for me to sign. After entering all the info in the computer he told me I would be getting a total that was $5,000 less than I expected. Turns out he had pulled the wrong car up and had to redo it. He remarked that he hoped he could pull the other car back up when that owner came in.


Good lord that is scary... I mean... Us Canadians don't have a settlement yet... but when we do, hopefully our process goes a bit smoother...


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

aj4066 said:


> I think you are missing a small point. This isn't our fault.
> 
> In the meantime, hundreds of thousands of people are in the process of finding another vehicle. -If this is something that will take 60 days to process, it sure would be nice to know that. People are uploading documents with the thought it will happen relatively quick because they weren't told otherwise. As others mentioned, they are quick to respond when something isnt correct, but getting an approval is taking some time.
> 
> BTW, is anyone else laughing at VW's $1000 loyalty money? :facepalm:


I agree. It's getting annoying. I had planned on keeping my car indefinitely but given the buyout and the fact that I live in a town where nitrogen oxides do have a deleterious affect on our smog levels, I decided to opt for the buyout at the earliest juncture. I uploaded my documents on 9/17. My documents were determined to be appropriate on 10/13. Now, recall Judge Breyer granted preliminary approval of the settlement on July 29 and final approval on 10/25. During the hearing the judge was concerned about the timely administration of the process. So, here I am 5 weeks removed from the final approval and my documents are still in the same state they were on October 13. I've been told my settlement letter was drafted on 11/19 but I still haven't received it. I have an agreement to buy a car (it's a cpo on a very low miles car, so won't last long) but I have no idea when my car will be bought back. While, I could delay buying a car until I receive my settlement offer and buyback date, I had no idea that they would sit on the claims. 

Maybe I'm expecting too much. About 15 years ago I handled the litigation for a huge insurance company whose adjusters would have a checkbook ready to write the settlement check at mediations. I've seen many of their adjusters write 6 figure checks as soon as the plaintiff signed the release that I finalized during the mediation with the numbers and non-standard conditions that were negotiated at the mediation. I would go to the mediation with a release 95% prepared just in case we settled. With that in mind, I would have expected the people handling the claims for VW to have already analyzed the documents to be ready to issue settlement offers when the settlement was approved.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

I feel sorry for all of you folks who are waiting so long. I must have been at the beginning of the curve with a paid off car. Originally scheduled my buyback for 12/16, then realized I would get another 1,042 mile allowance if I held onto it a few more weeks, so I rescheduled to 1/6. Depending on my mileage just before then, I may reschedule again as the car is registered/inspected through February.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

aj4066 said:


> BTW, is anyone else laughing at VW's $1000 loyalty money? :facepalm:


That's a lot better than Audi's loyalty offer of $0


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

I'm waiting on my approval. TDI is sitting in the back yard, picked the GTI up last Tuesday.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

NickCarter said:


> I'm waiting on my approval. TDI is sitting in the back yard, picked the GTI up last Tuesday.


—same day I got mine! Here it is, in front of the 2012 TDI that's soon to be gone:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

VeeDubMan54 said:


> VW has been ORDERED by the court to buy back the vehicle from me as that is the option I chose with a timeline they agreed to in a settlement and then * set by the Judge. * For VW credit to take another penny of interest since the official ruling is stealing my money. I don't mind paying principal since I'll get every bit of that back. Not to mention the insurance and registration costs they are requiring me to maintain to drive the car to the dealership under its own TDI power. I have had the car ready for delivery to their facility since the settlement was approved. They're the ones dragging their feet getting me my money.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


you seem to be mistaking VW the auto manufacturer... and VW Credit, the banking side. they are not one in the same. you want them to be, but they aren't.

you borrowed the money to buy the car from a bank. unless you have paid off the note, you still owe the interest.
as others have said if that annoys you call VW Credit to see if there is any leeway that they can provide you.

but beyond that. that is your debt obligation, and you owe it to VW Credit regardless of what VW that auto manufacturer did wrong.

also please dont talk as if you cannot drive this car from whenever you stopped till the buy back date. there are very few instances where that situation is actually true... and beyond myself, i have yet to hear of anyone else posting in here that has a vehicle that they ACTUALLY cannot drive because of lack of insurance, tabs, or damage. for my situation our licensing on the vehicle runs out tomorrow, so tomorrow once my wife gets back from work its going to get parked.

if thats YOUR ACTUAL scenario, then i feel for you, because i am there. but i am also not whining about it either. if it REALLY bothered me that much i would just pay the licensing fee and drive the car.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

aj4066 said:


> I think you are missing a small point. This isn't our fault.
> 
> In the meantime, hundreds of thousands of people are in the process of finding another vehicle. -If this is something that will take 60 days to process, it sure would be nice to know that. People are uploading documents with the thought it will happen relatively quick because they weren't told otherwise. As others mentioned, they are quick to respond when something isnt correct, but getting an approval is taking some time.


you are right in that it is not your fault. but you are wrong to think i am missing that.

i get it completely... i am a TDI owner as well. and not for the first time, and possibly not for the last time either.

i just realize that the undertaking to make this right is absolutely friggen impossibly huge. delays SHOULD be anticipated, expected even, without so many bunched up panties.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

What is patience? 2 weeks? 4 weeks? 6 weeks?

Maybe we have high expectations, who knows. But it sure would be nice to know what to expect before asking for patience. I'm patiently waiting with expectations that this will be over with soon. opcorn:


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

aj4066 said:


> What is patience? 2 weeks? 4 weeks? 6 weeks?
> 
> Maybe we have high expectations, who knows. But it sure would be nice to know what to expect before asking for patience. I'm patiently waiting with expectations that this will be over with soon. opcorn:


people have been bitching and whining since about 3 days after the court settlement was approved (honestly that a lie, some people have been bitching for a year+ now).
obviously that is not patience on any ones scale.

consider its been just over 1 month now.
and nearly everyone complaining here can actually still drive their cars without any issue beyond the emissions.

doesn't matter if its 2 weeks, 4 weeks, or 8... the car you purposely bought still runs and drives just fine.
but instead, you come in here and complain about how slow VW is being about getting 500k of them off the road?

that is impatience.

there are a few people in rare cases where their cars are broken, their yearly tabs are due etc... I guess we are just unfortunate that they are also the most vocal.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

and just to fan the flames a bit more...

we have returned the signed, notarized final offer just now via upload. now to see how long it takes to get that verified, so we can get a date on the calendar.


----------



## JackStraw79 (Aug 10, 2015)

dunhamjr said:


> and just to fan the flames a bit more...
> 
> we have returned the signed, notarized final offer just now via upload. now to see how long it takes to get that verified, so we can get a date on the calendar.


Uh... why are you so enthusiastic about telling people to be patient and understanding?

They stated 10 days to offer on the website. We were supposed anticipate another lie? If they said "up to 6-8 weeks" or something, I wouldn't have flinched. I'm not in any special hurry, but I don't expect incompetence and lies every step of the way during this resolution.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

Hexagonal said:


> —same day I got mine! Here it is, in front of the 2012 TDI that's soon to be gone:
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:beer: to both of you. I did the same thing in August. The MKVII GTI is much better then the MKVI Golf. And I loved the golf until i drove the GTI


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

JackStraw79 said:


> Uh... why are you so enthusiastic about telling people to be patient and understanding?
> 
> They stated 10 days to offer on the website. We were supposed anticipate another lie? If they said "up to 6-8 weeks" or something, I wouldn't have flinched. I'm not in any special hurry, but I don't expect incompetence and lies every step of the way during this resolution.


Hoping to be a voice of reason to help people see it's not taking that long overall. But as typical, people don't want to hear reason.

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

VT1.8T said:


> :beer: to both of you. I did the same thing in August. The MKVII GTI is much better then the MKVI Golf. And I loved the golf until i drove the GTI


Thanks. Loving the ride. I have the feeling GTI S's and Sports might end up being scarce after more of us get our settlement money. Maybe not, lots of folks are too pissed off at the process to want to stick with the brand. Me, I take the long view~


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

dunhamjr said:


> Hoping to be a voice of reason to help people see it's not taking that long overall. But as typical, people don't want to hear reason.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk


How can you be the voice of reason when you already have your offer notarized and sent back? The struggle is not real.

My biggest issue at this point is where to keep this fn thing once the snow flies. It's taking up valuable real estate. My state inspection is 2 months expired at this point and dpf light is on so it will remain parked until the last ride.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

VeeDubMan54 said:


> How can you be the voice of reason when you already have your offer notarized and sent back? The struggle is not real.
> 
> My biggest issue at this point is where to keep this fn thing once the snow flies. It's taking up valuable real estate. My state inspection is 2 months expired at this point and dpf light is on so it will remain parked until the last ride.
> 
> ...


Because it took a month+, which is way past the 10 day mark we quote right?... I ain't complained about it once, and no matter how long the rest of the process takes, I still won't complain... 2 more weeks or 8...

And the struggle IS still real. I still have a payment to make monthly, due in 5 days btw, and insurance to pay, every day costs me, but the tags also expire tomorrow... so it gets parked tomorrow night no matter how long the rest of the process takes. If that ain't real, nothing is.

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

dunhamjr said:


> people have been bitching and whining since about 3 days after the court settlement was approved (honestly that a lie, some people have been bitching for a year+ now).
> obviously that is not patience on any ones scale.
> 
> consider its been just over 1 month now.
> ...


People don't care about the emissions.. they want a bright and shiny new car in their driveway yesterday. That's what all this complaining comes down to in the end.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

caj1 said:


> People don't care about the emissions.. they want a new bright and shiny new car in their driveway yesterday. That's what all this complaining comes down to in the end.


Very true.

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

dunhamjr said:


> Because it took a month+, which is way past the 10 day mark we quote right?... I ain't complained about it once, and no matter how long the rest of the process takes, I still won't complain... 2 more weeks or 8...
> 
> And the struggle IS still real. I still have a payment to make monthly, due in 5 days btw, and insurance to pay, every day costs me, but the tags also expire tomorrow... so it gets parked tomorrow night no matter how long the rest of the process takes. If that ain't real, nothing is.
> 
> Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk


This back and forth is just that, a subtle way of complaining. We're all frustrated. I work in the court system, I know nothing happens overnight. However, in our cases, a Judge's orders are followed or potential jail time is imminent. 

Some are still oblivious that the buyback is even happening. My Town sends out a vehicle excise tax bill and won't budge on timeline of payment even though the car is not being driven and pending return. The tax collector had no idea that the case was "even a thing". I am making payments on this vehicle, it's cheap leased replacement as well as my wife's lease that's up in January. Not cash strapped but was looking forward to the diesel gate check for a decent down payment on her replacement vehicle. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

First Report of Independent Claims Supervisor (Link courtesy TDI Club)

http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/filelibrary/2891/First-Report-of-Independent-Claims-Supervisor.pdf


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

Mazda 3s said:


> First Report of Independent Claims Supervisor (Link courtesy TDI Club)
> 
> http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/filelibrary/2891/First-Report-of-Independent-Claims-Supervisor.pdf


:thumbup::thumbup:

I'm just going to leave this here


----------



## biturbowagon (Nov 23, 2015)

Ricky Bobby said:


> You mean you aren't handling your own claim? LOL


A friend of mine is handling the claim for a friend of his, with a POA. My friend is adept at such matters.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

dunhamjr said:


> people have been bitching and whining since about 3 days after the court settlement was approved (honestly that a lie, some people have been bitching for a year+ now).
> obviously that is not patience on any ones scale.
> 
> consider its been just over 1 month now.
> ...


People aren't bitching and whining. They simply would like to know what the hell is going on and I don't think that is too much to ask for. If its going to be another 6-8 weeks before anything happens, I would appreciate knowing that. Finding a replacement vehicle isn't something that can or should happen over night. 

We aren't talking about taking back a shirt to Walmart that doesn't fit. This is the vehicles that drives lives around every single day that is getting returned to the manufacture due to incompetence.
Knowing what is going on or when to expect something to happen isn't exactly unreasonable.

That said, I do think in the grand scheme of things, it is going fairly quick. Having a legitimate time table that leads up to the scheduling of the turn in date would be very helpful.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Mazda 3s said:


> First Report of Independent Claims Supervisor (Link courtesy TDI Club)
> 
> http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/filelibrary/2891/First-Report-of-Independent-Claims-Supervisor.pdf



It's no wonder folks are whining: 


> The aggressive timetables, however, made Volkswagen’s development of necessary operational processes and IT infrastructure challenging, particularly where, as here, Volkswagen: (i) did not initially have the requisite staffing and infrastructure in place to administer a program of this size and scope; (ii) did not have prior experience processing mass claims on this scale and within such accelerated timetables; (iii) did not have the benefit of any off-the-shelf IT solution to support such a high-volume and intricate claims program; (iv) had to address a significant volume of submitted claims at the outset of the Claims Program; and (v) did not have much time to test certain components of the operations and technology systems and troubleshoot issues before launch.
> 
> As a result of the foregoing, the administration of Volkswagen’s Claims Program may be expected to encounter certain challenges in the initial months of program administration, some of which, as discussed below, have already revealed themselves and caused frustration for a number of consumers


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

Anyone that's gotten an appointment scheduled/completed when were you given the instructions for the disbursement? 

Our appointment is all set and everything is ready but I don't remember giving them any bank info, IIRC it just said that information will be provided later.


----------



## Maroon (Apr 10, 2014)

caj1 said:


> People don't care about the emissions.. they want a bright and shiny new car in their driveway yesterday. That's what all this complaining comes down to in the end.


Yep. opcorn:


----------



## JackStraw79 (Aug 10, 2015)

caj1 said:


> People don't care about the emissions.. they want a bright and shiny new car in their driveway yesterday. That's what all this complaining comes down to in the end.


Nobody asked for the "10 days until your offer" notification, but that was the info on the website. It really starts and ends with that.

Any reasonable person understands the overall time frame of this resolution is decent in comparison to what a major law suit can be. People just want periodic and accurate communication updates


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Mazda 3s said:


> First Report of Independent Claims Supervisor (Link courtesy TDI Club)
> 
> http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/filelibrary/2891/First-Report-of-Independent-Claims-Supervisor.pdf


pretty much on par with what i had expected and have basically been saying.

also points out that a lot of peoples anecdotal thoughts on who is getting the most progress is correct, though i think the geography thing with CA getting a ton of claims processed also has to do with them being one of the top 5 TDI buyer states.

the paid off cars getting claims processed sooner tracks out as well since those cars dont have a huge logistic issue of dealing with the banks (internal or 3rd party) to get payoff amounts, etc.

IMO, yeah there have been some delays. but again. they aren't doing as bad as some comments would make you think.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Meanwhile in Canada....


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

The people complaining about people complaining are worse than the people complaining.


Not expecting to give my car back in 2016 anymore. At least my dad is a notary so I can get that done relatively quickly once I _eventually_ get the offer letter


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Mazda 3s said:


> First Report of Independent Claims Supervisor (Link courtesy TDI Club)
> 
> http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/filelibrary/2891/First-Report-of-Independent-Claims-Supervisor.pdf


Class Member response to the settlement has been considerable.3 As of November 20,
2016, of the consumers who were within the settlement class:
• 415,091 have registered through Volkswagen’s Claims Portal;4
• 241,455 have submitted claims for Volkswagen to review;
• 165,223 have had their claims deemed complete and preliminarily eligible
by Volkswagen;
• 67,020 were pending a determination by Volkswagen as to whether the
claim is complete and preliminarily eligible; and
*• 41,978 have been issued offers, the aggregate value of which is
$765,360,954.79.*

Only 10% of total have gotten this far. About 20% of those who submitted claims.


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

spockcat said:


> • 165,223 have had their claims deemed complete and preliminarily eligible
> by Volkswagen;
> • 41,978 have been issued offers, the aggregate value of which is
> $765,360,954.79.


^There's yer trouble. Mind the gap. What it looks like to me is that VW is only letting the offers go out in dribbles until they know they can handle the flood of vehicles. But those logistics aren't our problem. They should let the bottleneck occur at the stage *after* we get the cars off our hands and we get the money....


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Hexagonal said:


> ^There's yer trouble. Mind the gap. What it looks like to me is that VW is only letting the offers go out in dribbles until they know they can handle the flood of vehicles. But those logistics aren't our problem. They should let the bottleneck occur at the stage *after* we get the cars off our hands and we get the money....


Made me laugh. They should just let all the offers fly and hope for the best later when they can't deal with it on the dealer or logistics side.....

Reality is it makes a lot of sense (whether owners like it or not), to only send out offers for as many customers at a time that they can actual take care of. No different than a production line, figure out where the bottlenecks are and don't fill the system with more than can get through the bottleneck.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

TheRealCaptainSlow said:


> The people complaining about people complaining are worse than the people complaining.
> 
> 
> Not expecting to give my car back in 2016 anymore. At least my dad is a notary so I can get that done relatively quickly once I _eventually_ get the offer letter


Pretty sure your dad can't legally notarize those documents for you.


----------



## shuko (Jul 24, 2007)

I've had the check marks for weeks now. Just got a notification that registration was rejected! 

I didn't keep the original receipt that came with the plates, so I requested (then received, scanned, submitted) a "Certified title and registration verification of vehicle" from the Texas DMV. It contains every bit of information they could possibly need to process the claim.

A phone call to the claims hotline got the issue escalated, so I "should be contacted within 3 business days." In the mean time I'm preemptively sending off a request to the DMV for "duplicate registration receipt for current registration period."

:facepalm:

So yeah... if you had some document other than the exact ones they asked for, be prepared to have it questioned/rejected...

I just hope this doesn't stick me in the back of the claims line.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

AJB said:


> Pretty sure your dad can't legally notarize those documents for you.


i would expect he can. my step mom and sister in law have notarized a huge number of things for the family. my step mom even notarized a number of things for my dad through the years.

as long as you arent notarizing your OWN docs, i think you are safe.

at least thats how i have seen it happen for the last 20 years. if there was any conflicts from doing it this way, it hasnt come back to bit either of them yet.


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

AJB said:


> Pretty sure your dad can't legally notarize those documents for you.


I don't see why not. I would think they would have told him that when he was certified.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

TheRealCaptainSlow said:


> I don't see why not. I would think they would have told him that when he was certified.


Depends on the jurisdiction. Some states prohibit notaries from notarizing for relatives.


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

I am going to drive the crap out of mine til Dec 2018 at $0.10 depreciation/mile and paid for
I drove her to Little Rock and back today, cruise on 79mph and got 43.6 mpg
I love this little car

Then probably get the Cruze or CX5 diesel


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

tomski12 said:


> Depends on the jurisdiction. Some states prohibit notaries from notarizing for relatives.


Hmm good point. I'll be sure to look first.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

TheRealCaptainSlow said:


> Hmm good point. I'll be sure to look first.


Plus finding a notary is really simple. If you have a nearby UPS store, they have them. Just be sure to call first to ensure the notary is working. Cost me $2 to get mine notarized there. Most local government offices will notarize for free, as will your local bank branch.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

The 2.0 TDI guys are so impatient with their buyback approvals. Meanwhile the 3.0 TDI just get this news:

*U.S. judge delays court hearing on VW 3.0-liter diesels*



> WASHINGTON -- U.S. District Judge Charles Breyer on Tuesday delayed a court hearing set for Wednesday on Volkswagen Group's plan to address 80,000 polluting Audi, Porsche and VW 3.0-liter vehicles.
> 
> In a court order, Breyer said negotiations are continuing between the German automaker, regulators and lawyers representing owners, and he set a Dec. 16 hearing, saying he had been advised that a delay "may produce a resolution of the outstanding issues."
> 
> ...


----------



## Beaumont Livingston (Nov 14, 2016)

Sump said:


> Anyone that's gotten an appointment scheduled/completed when were you given the instructions for the disbursement?
> 
> Our appointment is all set and everything is ready but I don't remember giving them any bank info, IIRC it just said that information will be provided later.



The payment is through Chase payments website. They email you a link to set up an account and from there you can transfer to your bank. if you get it done by 8pm (EST) it should show up the next day.


----------



## gswtdi (Jun 29, 2016)

cpermd said:


> I am going to drive the crap out of mine til Dec 2018 at $0.10 depreciation/mile and paid for
> I drove her to Little Rock and back today, cruise on 79mph and got 43.6 mpg
> I love this little car
> 
> Then probably get the Cruze or CX5 diesel


That is exactly what I was thinking, hope the CX5 diesel or any Mazda diesel will be out by then.

Is there any disadvantages or risks to waiting til Dec. 2018?


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

AJB said:


> Pretty sure your dad can't legally notarize those documents for you.





dunhamjr said:


> i would expect he can. my step mom and sister in law have notarized a huge number of things for the family. my step mom even notarized a number of things for my dad through the years.
> 
> as long as you arent notarizing your OWN docs, i think you are safe.
> 
> at least thats how i have seen it happen for the last 20 years. if there was any conflicts from doing it this way, it hasnt come back to bit either of them yet.





TheRealCaptainSlow said:


> I don't see why not. I would think they would have told him that when he was certified.





tomski12 said:


> Depends on the jurisdiction. Some states prohibit notaries from notarizing for relatives.





TheRealCaptainSlow said:


> Hmm good point. I'll be sure to look first.


According to this site, it does depend on your jurisdiction:

http://members.usnotaries.net/faq.asp?FaqSubCategoryID=21#FAQ1032

"Q: As a notary public, can I notarize documents for family members and close friends? For which family members am I strictly prohibited from performing notarial acts?

A: In many states, notaries public are prohibited from notarizing the signature of immediate family such as a spouse, parents, grandparents, children, grandchildren, brothers, sisters, stepbrothers, stepsisters, stepparents, mother-in-laws, and father-in-laws. When it comes to family members, your spouse, and close friends, the better practice is to have another notary public notarize their documents."

However, i have also read that even though it is legal some places that it is frowned upon:

http://www.notarypublicstamps.com/articles/notarizing-for-family-members/

My dad has been a notary for a 40 years..he always refused to notarize anything for me out of principle.


----------



## bhamss (Dec 1, 2016)

*Got both 2.0 and 3.0*

Staring at green checks since 11/1. Ended up getting an Allroad so looking forward to getting rid of the Golf wagon payment. 

Does anyone have an idea on the model years that make up the 20K supposed buybacks for the 3.0's? I have found nothing online thats been helpful. I guess it will be closer to 2018 by the time by Touareg is finalized.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

Now I'm really annoyed. We've been getting a lot of snow in the last few days and my car is having a lot of trouble getting up and down the hills of my town. Had I known this process would take longer than what was mandated by the Court, I would have waited to do the buyback and bought snow tires.


----------



## dvandentop (Jun 8, 2011)

Yeah I am supposed to register my car for another year so I was hoping it would have been approved within the 7 to 10 days after sending in my notarized letter


----------



## AndersonT (Nov 29, 2016)

For me the wait from submitting notarized forms to reviewed and accepted was 12 days (8 business days). My turn in date is Dec. 13th.. now to find a car. Also as a note, I never got an email saying my notarized forms were accepted, I just happened to look on vwgoa and it said everything was accepted and I was able to schedule my turn in. I had been checking once a day just in case I didn't get an email...


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Mazda 3s said:


> First Report of Independent Claims Supervisor (Link courtesy TDI Club)
> 
> http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/filelibrary/2891/First-Report-of-Independent-Claims-Supervisor.pdf




You guys gotta post this stuff so I can talk about it with ya. :wave:


----------



## dvandentop (Jun 8, 2011)

AndersonT said:


> For me the wait from submitting notarized forms to reviewed and accepted was 12 days (8 business days). My turn in date is Dec. 13th.. now to find a car. Also as a note, I never got an email saying my notarized forms were accepted, I just happened to look on vwgoa and it said everything was accepted and I was able to schedule my turn in. I had been checking once a day just in case I didn't get an email...


Thanks for the info Will do a daily check


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

AndersonT said:


> For me the wait from submitting notarized forms to reviewed and accepted was 12 days (8 business days). My turn in date is Dec. 13th.. now to find a car. Also as a note, I never got an email saying my notarized forms were accepted, I just happened to look on vwgoa and it said everything was accepted and I was able to schedule my turn in. I had been checking once a day just in case I didn't get an email...


Thats really good to know. :thumbup:


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

Forgot to check my emails and didn't realize I had an offer already waiting in my Inbox from VW. Been sitting since Monday. It's about what I expected based on the calculator available online. It's for a 2012 VW Golf TDI DSG 4 door with 69,500 miles at the time of uploading the documents. Now I just need to sign, notarize, and upload the documents back and wait for a response to set up my buyback appointment. I just have to make sure it's done with enough of time to put my car back to stock (coilovers, LED tails, OEM Bi-Xenons, BBS CH wheels, DeAutoKey LED interior lights).










Documents uploaded on 10/24, approved on 10/25


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

tomski12 said:


> Now I'm really annoyed. We've been getting a lot of snow in the last few days and my car is having a lot of trouble getting up and down the hills of my town. Had I known this process would take longer than what was mandated by the Court, I would have waited to do the buyback and bought snow tires.


Why not buy snow tires? Just because you are gong through the process doesn't mean you can't schedule a buyback date for late spring.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

VT1.8T said:


> Why not buy snow tires? Just because you are gong through the process doesn't mean you can't schedule a buyback date for late spring.


I have already mentally checked out of the car and don't want to spend $600 on snow tires for a car I'm getting rid of. Initially, I thought about keeping it but given the inversion that we have in this area, I don't want to contribute to it with a car that produces more nitrogen oxides.


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

tomski12 said:


> I have already mentally checked out of the car and don't want to spend $600 on snow tires for a car I'm getting rid of. Initially, I thought about keeping it but given the inversion that we have in this area, I don't want to contribute to it with a car that produces more nitrogen oxides.


If you weren't so far away, I'd swap/give you my near new General Altimax that the golf will be turned in with. 

I spoke with someone today as the timeline to get my offer is officially over the court ordered ten days plus ten days. the woman "who works directly for VWOA" (made sure to tell me that) said they have no official timeline once docs were approved by third party on 11/23 and I should have my letter *any day now*


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## todcp (Mar 6, 2005)

Four and a half week since document approval and counting. No buyback offer yet.


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

Just got the email to schedule the appointment. The earliest they had was the 16th of December, but I'm bringing it in on the 20th. Just glad it's finally set. I'm in Colorado if anyone is curious about any possible region trends.


----------



## automobiliben (Feb 19, 2010)

Going back at 1pm tomorrow!


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

todcp said:


> Four and a half week since document approval and counting. No buyback offer yet.


Hah!! 7 weeks here.


----------



## todcp (Mar 6, 2005)

tomski12 said:


> Hah!! 7 weeks here.


What a mess. VW has done a poor job. Unprepared.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

aj4066 said:


> For me:
> 
> Docs uploaded the day after the portal was opened up
> Docs approved -11/10
> ...


Notary seal'd offer returned to VW 11/21 and I received my notice to schedule the turn in today, 12/1. 

Turn in will happen 12/19

So in total, from start to absolute finish, it took a little over a month.


----------



## typevw (Oct 21, 2016)

aj4066 said:


> Notary seal'd offer returned to VW 11/21 and I received my notice to schedule the turn in today, 12/1.
> 
> Turn in will happen 12/19
> 
> So in total, from start to absolute finish, it took a little over a month.


On 11/17 - I received status that they were determining my eligibility, all required documents have been submitted. -- next step is due in 10 business days --.
On 12/1 - I received an email directing me to download the offer letter. Printed everything, got it Notarized and uploaded back to VW the same day.
On ?? - getting closer - hope to receive notice to schedule the turn in.

Has anyone been able to reduce the sales tax on purchasing a replacement car, like they would on a traditional trade-in?
Also, is it possible to determine which dealer has the earliest available appointment?


----------



## bhamss (Dec 1, 2016)

*Owner of both 2.0 and 3.0*

I am going to try to giving VW a call and see if I can set up interest only payments


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

typevw said:


> Has anyone been able to reduce the sales tax on purchasing a replacement car, like they would on a traditional trade-in?


Unfortunately, I don't believe this is possible since you're selling the car, not trading it in. I wish it were possible, though, as that would save me 2 grand in taxes.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

typevw said:


> On 11/17 - I received status that they were determining my eligibility, all required documents have been submitted. -- next step is due in 10 business days --.
> On 12/1 - I received an email directing me to download the offer letter. Printed everything, got it Notarized and uploaded back to VW the same day.
> On ?? - getting closer - hope to receive notice to schedule the turn in.
> 
> ...


When you schedule the buyback, you are able to look at other dealerships schedule. -so you would find another dealer, input their info for turn in, and then look at what they have available. 




bhamss said:


> I am going to try to giving VW a call and see if I can set up interest only payments


I am in a lease, so not sure if this will help your situation: 

I was able to call VW with a sob story and and they took 30% of my monthly payment as my November payment and tacked on a full payment at the end of my agreement. Basically I paid as little as possible the month of November and will be turning the car in before the next payment is due.


----------



## bhamss (Dec 1, 2016)

*thanks*

I just called and got VW to give me 60 days until next payment. Hope---HOPE---that does it for the payments. If I dont have resolve by early Feb that will blow


----------



## turbokirby (Sep 5, 2014)

A coworker of mine who owned her car outright (no payment) submitted her info 2 months after I did and uploaded her documents a week after I did has already received her offer letter. We have a payment through VWOA and have been in pending approved status for 12 business days no offer yet, I have another payment due today that I can't afford to pay after purchasing a replacement vehicle expecting this process to be done by the end of November at the latest, this is really putting a toll on the family right now.... I really don't understand how you fubar this process after you screwed up so badly to begin with.


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

Offer letter received and signed Mon Nov. 28. [edit] Just got the scheduling e-mail. I opted for a check and not an EFT, and I wonder if that delayed me being able to schedule my appointment -- the offer letter said EFT would be quicker, but I didn't take that to mean they'd get to schedule theirs sooner... 

Also, here's what's almost certain to happen to my beat up '12 Golf TDI after 75K hard miles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLfWuumA7Z4


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

Very interesting thread started by Linewarbr 12/1 over at tdiclub, from someone who'd just spoken with the plaintiff's attorney in the big case. Highlights:

"I called, and he basically confirmed what most here have hypothesized - VW was completely unprepared for the sheer number of people opting for an immediate buyback. They thought that since consumers would have 2 years to decide what to do - and basically drive a car with no depreciation (my words, not his) - that many wouldn't take immediate action. .... He stated that Judge Breyer is acutely aware of VW's difficulties in meeting their stated deadlines, and that there is a conference call in 10 days for them to discuss VW's solutions to these issues.

...several takeaways to be gleaned here. One is that, as VW has demonstrated for years, they are not very in touch with their consumer base. If they were, they would have realized or at least reckoned that the vast majority were not going to keep their cars... I expect VW to pick up the pace on offer letters and buyback appointments in the days leading up to that status update with Judge Breyer; if not, there should be a ton of progress shortly afterward....

[and here Linewarbr nails it about VW's handling of all this] ...the real issue is not that my buyback hasn't happened - it's that I don't know when it will happen. there are no answers forthcoming from VW. I haven't gotten a letter, or an email, there have been no press releases, nothing. No "bear with us, we're processing claims as fast as we can but you guys kinda overloaded us." Nothing."

Read the whole thing here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=470468


----------



## turbokirby (Sep 5, 2014)

Thank you this helped



bhamss said:


> I just called and got VW to give me 60 days until next payment. Hope---HOPE---that does it for the payments. If I dont have resolve by early Feb that will blow


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Honestly, if you have a loan for the car (especially not with vw credit) you are out of luck. Certain area's of the country might have better luck however.


----------



## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

Hexagonal said:


> Very interesting thread started by Linewarbr 12/1 over at tdiclub, from someone who'd just spoken with the plaintiff's attorney in the big case. Highlights:
> 
> "I called, and he basically confirmed what most here have hypothesized - VW was completely unprepared for the sheer number of people opting for an immediate buyback. They thought that since consumers would have 2 years to decide what to do - and basically drive a car with no depreciation (my words, not his) - that many wouldn't take immediate action. .... He stated that Judge Breyer is acutely aware of VW's difficulties in meeting their stated deadlines, and that there is a conference call in 10 days for them to discuss VW's solutions to these issues.
> 
> ...


In my case, an I'm sure a lot of other people are the same.. I drive 300+ miles more a month then the limit they set. So the sooner I get rid of it the better I'll make out.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

You are looking at this wrong.

You drive 1400 miles per month.

With the TDI you will only be paying depreciation on 300 of those miles.

On ANYTHING else you will be paying the depreciation on all 1400 miles.

Unless you NEED to get out of the TDI, you should keep it.

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

.yuk. said:


> Honestly, if you have a loan for the car (especially not with vw credit) you are out of luck. Certain area's of the country might have better luck however.


Yeah. Can't imagine all the complications that are involved with different lenders. I assume that the lenders even have to approve the buyback as it ends their loan (investment) early?


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

Offer letter on the portal this morning; dated 11/23. Notarizing as soon as I am done getting my wife's Chevy serviced. Looks like the payoff quote they got was before my last payment; I'll have to call VW credit to make sure I get the difference back so they don't have to change the buyback difference amount.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## bhamss (Dec 1, 2016)

So your offer was sent or approved 11/23 why is it taking 8 business days to make its way to you? I would think all the red tape and time would be in getting the offer sorted and approved in the system not in sending it once it does


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

VeeDubMan54 said:


> Offer letter on the portal this morning; dated 11/23. Notarizing as soon as I am done getting my wife's Chevy serviced. Looks like the payoff quote they got was before my last payment; I'll have to call VW credit to make sure I get the difference back so they don't have to change the buyback difference amount.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Doesn't really matter, the dealer can adjust the amount when you take it in.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

veedubBiker said:


> Docs were uploaded 9/23, docs marked complete 10/20, offer received 11/19, returned 11/21. Looks like there's roughly a 2-5 days turn time on getting the response to go ahead and schedule the appointment. One step closer....


Woohoo! Got notification just now of VW's acceptance of my acceptance of their offer 

So,

9/23 - Docs uploaded
10/20 - Marked complete
11/19 - Offer received
11/21 - Offer notarized and returned
12/2 - Acceptance of notarized docs/appt scheduled
12/16 - TURN IN DATE

I checked the 4 closest VW dealerships. They all had the soonest appt available for 12/16, except for one who's soonest was 12/19. Two weeks!

Of note, I have a non-VW loan against the car; through Digital Federal Credit Union, if it matters to anyone.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

spockcat said:


> Yeah. Can't imagine all the complications that are involved with different lenders. I assume that the lenders even have to approve the buyback as it ends their loan (investment) early?


potentially, but i dont think i have ever seen a loan like that.

a prepayment penalty maybe?


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Hexagonal said:


> Very interesting thread started by Linewarbr 12/1 over at tdiclub, from someone who'd just spoken with the plaintiff's attorney in the big case. Highlights:
> 
> "I called, and he basically confirmed what most here have hypothesized - VW was completely unprepared for the sheer number of people opting for an immediate buyback.


Or they are prepared as they could be and it is impossible to quickly take back hundreds of thousands of cars.

VW has roughly 650 dealers in the U.S. so it averages out to each needs to take back roughly 600 cars to get to 390,000? Even taking back 60 cars (10% and what it seems like they are doing) and the logistics aren't simple.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Yea, some loans could have a prepayment penalty. But I don't know if that comes into play with a case like this.


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

bhamss said:


> So your offer was sent or approved 11/23 why is it taking 8 business days to make its way to you? I would think all the red tape and time would be in getting the offer sorted and approved in the system not in sending it once it does


As I mentioned above, I got my offer letter by e-mail on Monday, 11/28. The date on the letter, though, was 11/15! Would have been faster if they'd actually mailed it... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Hexagonal said:


> As I mentioned above, I got my offer letter by e-mail on Monday, 11/28. The date on the letter, though, was 11/15! Would have been faster if they'd actually mailed it...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It is not dated the day issued to you.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

the more i think about this, and the more i reply to others situations here, the more i keep changing my mind about buyback ASAP vs buyback in like November 2018...

i am obviously going to have to spend some real time this weekend looking at the cost situation to force my mind one way or the other for good.

If I turn the car in now (15 months after 9/2015) with ~27,500 miles I get $27,857. 
If I turn the car in November 2018 (39 months after 9/2015) with 54999 miles I get $27,857. 

the known quantity of the depreciation and guaranteed buyback value are just huge draws.
being able to drive this car for 5 years for the equivalent of $1500 in total depreciation?? honestly i dont know why I can't just immediately say YES to that.

which makes the overall cost of the purchase AND mileage put on the car = $1500 for 5 years, which equal is to about $25/mo. very hard to beat that with anything else.

IMO $$$ wise keeping the car really seems like our(and many other peoples) best choice.


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

*Ormond Beach, FL 32174 reporting in with my update *



Claim docs uploaded September 24th
Claim docs approved October 21st
Offer pkg letter received December 2nd
Offer pkg letter signed/notarized and uploaded to portal December 2nd

*Now wait for the offer pkg to be approved and have the appointment window choice open up. *


----------



## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

AJB said:


> Pretty sure your dad can't legally notarize those documents for you.


only if it provides benefit to his dad.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

are pages/posts disappearing???


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

dunhamjr said:


> are pages/posts disappearing???


Yes, ten or more posts on this thread are gone. My guess is we jumped to a backup server. I'd edited one of my posts above, and I know the edit took, but now it's gone. [edit] now they're all back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

Anyway, I got the offer and returned it on Monday 11/28, and was given the chance to schedule a dropoff just now, Friday afternoon, 12/2. First available appt is 12/16. One of the dealerships around here has Saturday's available. I think I'll keep the TDI until the end of January to teach my son how to drive a stick on. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Hexagonal said:


> Yes, ten or more posts on this thread are gone. My guess is we jumped to a backup server. I'd edited one of my posts above, and I know the edit took, but now it's gone.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Funny that Tapatalk send ok but web based doesn't.

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

*Ormond Beach, FL 32174 reporting in with my update *



Claim docs uploaded September 24th
Claim docs approved October 21st
Offer pkg letter received December 2nd
Offer pkg letter signed/notarized and uploaded to portal December 2nd

*Now wait for the offer pkg to be approved and have the appointment window choice open up.*


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

.yuk. said:


> It is not dated the day issued to you.


Trying to pre-date to skirt court fines.....? clever


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

So, dunhamjr, I've been thinking about your 'why not wait' comment. (Which I can see on my phone but not online. Weird.)

What year and condition is your vehicle? If it's a decent ride, why not keep driving it for a while? Each person's situation is different. Leasers are in an entirely different situation from buyers. Either way, I think depreciation is a pretty abstract concept for a lot of folks; I've bought and sold or traded in enough cars that I get it in a way I damn sure didn't when I was in my 20's. 

A newer TDI that was running fine I might keep. At 75K miles I know I've got some repairs coming up in the next 12 months. My a/c's busted, for one thing. 

Here are other factors: 

--the very small but nonzero risk that by 2018 the buyback program might not exist. It might be BETTER, who knows, but if VW hits the 85% off the roads they told the judge they'd hit they might not care.

--the small but nonzero risk you'll have a wreck that will total the car. You'll recover from insurance, but that's - what? - 60% of the buyout money? This risk seems to bother a few on vwvortex waaay more than me. I'm not worried. How can you drive constantly worrying? That's no way to live. But it is a factor. 

--the pollution you'll be emitting for the next year. Nitrous oxides are nasty. Helps send asthmatic kids to the ER. 

--the time value of money. Depending on your personal discount rate, $27K now is worth way more than $27K 18 months from now. This applies to me, since I can use the money ($19K in my case) to pay off expensive credit card debt. 

Anyway, my two cents~




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bhamss (Dec 1, 2016)

Are you able to pick any local dealers times slots or only the one you preselected


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

bhamss said:


> Are you able to pick any local dealers times slots or only the one you preselected


Any. You give a zip code and how many miles away and you choose. You can fish for different dates. I only found one nearby dealer that did Saturday's 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wb4yye (Jan 20, 2005)

aj4066 said:


> Notary seal'd offer returned to VW 11/21 and I received my notice to schedule the turn in today, 12/1.
> 
> Turn in will happen 12/19
> 
> So in total, from start to absolute finish, it took a little over a month.


Same timeline for me, except I received the notice to schedule turn in today. One car goes on Dec. 19 and the other on Jan. 6.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Hexagonal said:


> So, dunhamjr, I've been thinking about your 'why not wait' comment. (Which I can see on my phone but not online. Weird.)
> 
> What year and condition is your vehicle? If it's a decent ride, why not keep driving it for a while? Each person's situation is different. Leasers are in an entirely different situation from buyers. I think depreciation is a pretty abstract concept for a lot of folks; I've bought and sold or traded in enough cars that I get it in a way I damn sure didn't when I was in my 20's.
> 
> ...



the car is a 2013 JSW TDI DSG with roof.
only about 27k miles on it right now. we ended up with more cars than expected, and some of our driving habits changed so the miles going on this car, so while it has the highest yearly mileage accrual of all the cars in our fleet... we are still way low, and will stay low, on miles for a typical TDI driver.

its in great condition, knock on wood, not a single issue, check engine light, failure, etc to date. honestly the only thing 'broken' is a slow leak on one of the OEM allseason tires that we have just been too lazy/busy to get repaired.
based on our current driving patterns, i would be NOT expect to get the total mileage over about the 55k mile mark by the time we would be forced to chose buyback or fix.

so why not keep it? couple of things going on here.
the wife is annoyed with VW for cheating and feels like she wants to return the car. 
we also have 5 cars, 2 drivers. i caused this buy purchasing a minivan last Sept. And then buying myself/my wife a TDI replacement in the Mazda6 over the past summer.

so asap buyback makes its very easy to get down to 4 cars at least... PLUS doing the buyback on the JSW offers the largest amount of money returned to the pot vs getting rid of my Saab daily or Audi project.

i however, as you can tell, am really falling more and more into the "keep it 2 more years camp".

to make that happen. I need to convince my wife. this will be about showing her the numbers/risks... she is a math/science teacher. AND it, i can almost guarantee, will also mean that we are at least getting rid of the Audi, and likely the Saab as well. overall... i "think" i am fine with this. the audi is a project that i ignore and needs more time/money than i should spare. and i do still like my saab quite a lot, but its been around nearly 5 years. maybe its time to move on???

as to your other factors:
1. i dont agree that the buyback will go away. the court has ordered, and vw has set aside enough money to fund this program. BUT even if it were to show signs of disappearing, we would be notified, and could then schedule an immediate buyback date at any point.

2. this is possible. can't deny that. in our lives the wife and i have totaled 2 cars out of maybe 30. still it could happen. the fight here would be to prevent the insurance company from totaling the car and fixing it JUST enough to get it driveable again.

3. pollution is the hard one for me. there are SOOOO many other sources of pollution out there that are not even close to as low as my over-polluting TDI is. as long as no one is directly sucking on my tailpipe, i am less bothered about this.

4. time value money has merit. however. the only debt we have is bound to our 2 house, and our two newest cars. the mazda6 payment once i refi it out of my heloc will be $200/mo. and if we keep the TDI, i will refi that loan down to about $260/mo. both at 2.29% interest. sure we could take that $27k and invest it, put it toward the next house payment, or pay down our 4% mortgage... but none of these things is especially high priority right now. also the time value of this money now versus in 2 years, is minimized by the VERY low, guaranteed value and depreciation costs of the vehicle over that same 2 yr time frame.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> are pages/posts disappearing???





Hexagonal said:


> Yes, ten or more posts on this thread are gone. My guess is we jumped to a backup server. I'd edited one of my posts above, and I know the edit took, but now it's gone. [edit] now they're all back.


Might be related to the fact this thread is now over 10,880 posts long. Could be a variety of things that might go wrong with any thread that's got so many replies associated with it.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Hexagonal said:


> So, dunhamjr, I've been thinking about your 'why not wait' comment. (Which I can see on my phone but not online. Weird.)
> 
> What year and condition is your vehicle? If it's a decent ride, why not keep driving it for a while? Each person's situation is different. Leasers are in an entirely different situation from buyers. Either way, I think depreciation is a pretty abstract concept for a lot of folks; I've bought and sold or traded in enough cars that I get it in a way I damn sure didn't when I was in my 20's.
> 
> ...


I would add some other benefits - 

Car has a serious problem with it but is still drive-able, just turn it in, problem is over, like a warranty. - if still under warranty the whole time this doesn't matter.
Car is in a accident but not totaled and still drive-able, collect the insurance money, don't get it fixed and turn it in.

Not following the time value of money - assuming you take the $19k car and turn it in, pay off expensive card debt and then you drive a much less expensive car which also comes with negatives?


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

dmorrow said:


> Not following the time value of money - assuming you take the $19k car and turn it in, pay off expensive card debt and then you drive a much less expensive car which also comes with negatives?


Well, in my case I'm not in a position to live without debt for now. So what I'll do is take out a $20k secured car loan at 4%, and use the buyback money to pay off $20K of 8% debt. So I'm cutting my interest payments in half. Remember also VW is paying me about 2x what my TDI is worth, so far from trading down I'm actually trading up...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

dmorrow said:


> I would add some other benefits -
> 
> Car has a serious problem with it but is still drive-able, just turn it in, problem is over, like a warranty. - if still under warranty the whole time this doesn't matter.
> Car is in a accident but not totaled and still drive-able, collect the insurance money, don't get it fixed and turn it in.
> ...


The above two advantages do seem to apply as well.

IMO, Your thoughts on time value are only valid if people buy a less expensive car. Many won't be doing that.

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

buyback appointment scheduled for Dec 28th 10:30am. merry christmas bitches


----------



## dvandentop (Jun 8, 2011)

benjaminobscene said:


> buyback appointment scheduled for Dec 28th 10:30am. merry christmas bitches


When did upload notarized docs


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

! -- I just realized something. Yesterday when I got to choose appointments, the first one I could have picked was in 2 weeks, 12/16. I chose 1/28/17 because while I've parked the TDI I'm using it for a few weeks to teach my son how to drive a stick.

Well, I just ran the numbers, and as it turns out, that extra month of not driving the car will put me in the next lower adjusted mileage bracket for what my mileage was supposed to be back in Sept. 2015. 16 months vs. 15. So I'll get $330 more for the car! I just happened to be right at the cusp, I'd have to wait 5 more months for the next notch up, which is 5 more months of insurance and everything.

But I just wanted to post for all of you when you get the chance to make your appointments -- check where you are in the mileage brackets -- if one or two months would kick you up, and you can afford to wait, it might be worth it.

Bracket tables are here: http://jalopnik.com/heres-exactly-how-much-volkswagen-will-pay-you-for-your-1782745097


----------



## GregPL85 (Jun 10, 2014)

*Buyback*

Claim docs uploaded October 15
Claim docs approved October 28th
Offer pkg letter received December 3rd
Offer pkg letter signed/notarized and uploaded to portal December 3rd

So glad I am almost at the end of this settlement process. There was no way i was going to dish out the money for 40K services knowing i wasnt going to get anything else additionally in return.


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

My docs were approved on 11/3, still no offer letter. Called the claims hotline earlier this week, was told that my offer letter was prepared on 11/8 but went to the auditor and hadn't been released yet, unable to provide any other information besides "they are being processed and you will get email when released" so I wait... Still waiting on 12/3. 

Husband started process three weeks after me, his docs were approved on 11/15, offer received on 11/29, signed/notarized uploaded on 12/2. 

I'm glad one of our cars is that much closer to the buyback, even if it's my tags that expire in 28 days and not his...


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

Offer letter came today. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## clintg60-16v (Dec 13, 2002)

My JSW is financed through VW Credit. I received the offer letter early this morning.


----------



## dvandentop (Jun 8, 2011)

Wohoo about 10 days later


----------



## maydaymike (Dec 12, 2014)

Appointment is set for 12/17! Unlike some I've read about here, my dealer is doing 6 appointments per day, 6 days a week. 

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


----------



## jwhuffandpuff (May 8, 2008)

You and me both buddy, the 9th will be one month :/



Charles Devine said:


> Starting to get a little bit pissed now, I've had this for the past 25 days now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

Submitted my notarized letter 11/25. Schedule opened up this morning and the first available date appears to be 12/21. The furthest out I could schedule online is the end of March so that's probably what I'll pick. I have an Audi and I checked a few dealers online. Looks like they're all scheduling buybacks one day per week. That makes sense given the volume of VW vs. Audi cars.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Question: do we get a check at the time of turn in or a deposit?


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

aj4066 said:


> Question: do we get a check at the time of turn in or a deposit?


The Website told me when I set my appointment that checks would not be given at time of drop off so I selected ETF. but then got this email this weekend. grr.




> This is to remind you of your scheduled appointment with a Settlement Specialist at xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. *Upon turning your vehicle in you will receive your settlement payment via the payment method you selected Electronic Fund Transfer (EFT) or check, in accordance with the following details: *
> 
> 
> Checks:
> ...


I would of selected check if the appointment page was correct in that you get the check at time of drop off.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

I wasn't given an option, but I am also on a lease. -the lease restitution is pretty much a 'this is what it is' type restitution. 


The reason I ask is that on the 'pre-check' list, it indicates that you will receive a check UNLESS your mileage is greater than the estimate by which VW somehow figures. 

-that said, I assume most will be getting a check.


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

Sump said:


> I would of selected check if the appointment page was correct in that you get the check at time of drop off.


Has anyone here who's done the buyback chosen to get a check? Just curious. 

There is a downside about choosing a check that the email they sent you doesn't mention: yes, if your mileage is low they send you a 2nd check -- but if your mileage is too high the buyback is stopped and you have to reschedule it. This is in the settlement agreement itself. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

aj4066 said:


> -that said, I assume most will be getting a check.


The completed buybacks people over at tdiclub and at reddit/r/tdi have reported on have all been EFTs so far that I've read


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Interesting -but thanks


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

I selected EFT just because the website indicated I was likely to get an appt sooner than if I wanted a check. Really makes no difference to me either way.


----------



## Tullyman (Nov 20, 2008)

*Thanks bdc12*

Thanks for the explanation. I could not find that information anywhere. They have got to be aware of this by the sheer number of people uploading the wrong document. 
Anyhow your advise was invaluable. Much appreciated.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

jwhuffandpuff said:


> You and me both buddy, the 9th will be one month :/


I've had that screen since October 13. It's pissing me off.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Got a $2000 off new car offer from a VW dealership in another state. There are at least 5 local VW dealerships I haven't received anything from. Not even the ones I've bought cars from in the past. Also got something from Volvo, Chevy and MINI in the mail about TDI buybacks. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Atl-Atl (Jun 7, 2006)

I read through the last few pages and didnt see anything. Whats the current situation for the 3.0tdi's?


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Atl-Atl said:


> I read through the last few pages and didnt see anything. Whats the current situation for the 3.0tdi's?


Waiting for a court update next Friday (16th) I believe.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Atl-Atl said:


> I read through the last few pages and didnt see anything. Whats the current situation for the 3.0tdi's?


Back on page 436.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Yay time to schedule an appointment 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

2ohgti said:


> Got a $2000 off new car offer from a VW dealership in another state. There are at least 5 local VW dealerships I haven't received anything from. Not even the ones I've bought cars from in the past. Also got something from Volvo, Chevy and MINI in the mail about TDI buybacks.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My local dealer gave me $1,000 loyalty plus 'invoice price'. $1,000 to stay with VW after this....:screwy:

Also, I have $126 goodwill money available on my card. What should I spend it on? $126 worth of that awesome smelling washer fluid or Oakley VW etched glasses (which would be great mowing glasses that cost me nothing).


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

aj4066 said:


> My local dealer gave me $1,000 loyalty plus 'invoice price'. $1,000 to stay with VW after this....:screwy:
> 
> Also, I have $126 goodwill money available on my card. What should I spend it on? $126 worth of that awesome smelling washer fluid or Oakley VW etched glasses (which would be great mowing glasses that cost me nothing).


 Mini USA sent me a $500 'rebate' card for being a VW TDI owner to jump brands. lol Also go a $1,000 offer from Hyundai but that was a while ago.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

aj4066 said:


> Also, I have $126 goodwill money available on my card. What should I spend it on? $126 worth of that awesome smelling washer fluid or Oakley VW etched glasses (which would be great mowing glasses that cost me nothing).


i used our left over goodwill card (about $350) to buy tires for the Sienna.
the dealership ordered the exact size/model/load rating of tire i wanted from a local Discount Tire.


----------



## rick8018 (Jan 3, 2001)

Sump said:


> Mini USA sent me a $500 'rebate' card for being a VW TDI owner to jump brands.


How did you get this? Just luck? We will probably be buying a certified Mini this weekend and $500 off would be pretty sweet.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> i used our left over goodwill card (about $350) to buy tires for the Sienna.
> the dealership ordered the exact size/model/load rating of tire i wanted from a local Discount Tire.


That is awesome. Did the VW dealer then do the mount & balance, or they just acted as a pass-through for delivering the tires to you?


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> That is awesome. Did the VW dealer then do the mount & balance, or they just acted as a pass-through for delivering the tires to you?


Funny enough no. Just bought the tires through them, then went back to Discount Tire to have them do the mount and balance work because they were about $20 per tire cheaper.

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

Just called in to check, knowing that it would do no good... docs were approved 11/3 and no offer yet. 

Tonight's rep says "oh you just have to keep checking your email, it could be in the next few days, maybe next week, maybe the week after..." Gee, thanks for nothing. 

And when I asked "interesting, because my husband started his process weeks after me and already has his offer" she goes with "well every claim is different. Sure. They're different, but in our case both cars have no loans on them and titles are in our hands... sigh.


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

Took my letter to get notarized today and the bank said no, they can't be the notary and the witness. Gonna call around to different branches and go tomorrow. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bhamss (Dec 1, 2016)

Green Hare said:


> Just called in to check, knowing that it would do no good... docs were approved 11/3 and no offer yet.
> 
> Tonight's rep says "oh you just have to keep checking your email, it could be in the next few days, maybe next week, maybe the week after..." Gee, thanks for nothing.
> 
> And when I asked "interesting, because my husband started his process weeks after me and already has his offer" she goes with "well every claim is different. Sure. They're different, but in our case both cars have no loans on them and titles are in our hands... sigh.


what prompts are you following to get a live person? when i follow the prompts for I get basically we have your **** just wait


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

NickCarter said:


> Took my letter to get notarized today and the bank said no, they can't be the notary and the witness. Gonna call around to different branches and go tomorrow.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


odd... are they the bank that holds the loan against the TDI?

maybe that would be a conflict of interest. other than that, if they offer notary services, i dont get why they wouldn't perform the service.


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

dunhamjr said:


> odd... are they the bank that holds the loan against the TDI?
> 
> maybe that would be a conflict of interest. other than that, if they offer notary services, i dont get why they wouldn't perform the service.


No they are not. I just don't think they wanted to help. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## clintg60-16v (Dec 13, 2002)

NickCarter said:


> Took my letter to get notarized today and the bank said no, they can't be the notary and the witness. Gonna call around to different branches and go tomorrow.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Odd- in this case, the notary IS the sole witness. That's the point of having the notary. 

The docs allow space for an owner and co-owner - perhaps the bank was confused by the format?

My bank notarized my offer today w/ no issues.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

sorry to those who haven't heard much yet, since I know this is an impatient bunch... 
I returned my notarized offer on 11/29, got the acceptance email today 12/5.

Looks like the first appointments for any dealer within 25 miles of home is Dec 27th... so really we could be complete in just about 2 months.

However, I have been working on trying to convince the wife to delay the buy back. Obviously since we didn't have an approval we were stuck anyways. But now that we have that last-ish piece, we really do need to finalize out decision now.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Also FYI... 

The dealer closest to home is most likely to be the one we chose. Right now, looks like they have time slot for up to 8 appointments per day. 
And so far the calendar allows us to schedule out only to March 30 2017.

I assume waiting a couple days/weeks will show us extended dates/times past March.
There is really no way VW is so ambitious about the buy backs that it thinks everyone who wants a buy back will want it done before April, AND there is no way they can even work through all the cars in that 3 month time frame.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

Does anyone who has scheduled their buyback know if you can later go back into the site to change the appointment?


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

bdc12 said:


> Does anyone who has scheduled their buyback know if you can later go back into the site to change the appointment?


Yes. At Step 19 they show you the appointment and the documents you need. At the bottom, it says click on cancel appointment to change it. Then you get the current calendar with whatever dates are available at the time.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

Hexagonal said:


> Yes. At Step 19 they show you the appointment and the documents you need. At the bottom, it says click on cancel appointment to change it. Then you get the current calendar with whatever dates are available at the time.


Thanks. The furthest out I can select is March, but I still haven't decided on a replacement vehicle. I want to be able to change the date since most of the options I'm looking at would require ordering a vehicle.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

dunhamjr said:


> However, I have been working on trying to convince the wife to delay the buy back. Obviously since we didn't have an approval we were stuck anyways. But now that we have that last-ish piece, we really do need to finalize out decision now.


Why do you need to finalize now? Pick a date now, and then change it when the time comes if you decided to hang on to the car a bit. I originally scheduled for 12/16, then rescheduled to 1/6 realizing I would gain a bunch of allowed miles by delaying three weeks. Now that the snow tires are going on the TDI this week, i am likely to push it out until February, the last month of its registration.


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

bhamss said:


> what prompts are you following to get a live person? when i follow the prompts for I get basically we have your **** just wait


1-844-98-CLAIM x1 x3 x2



clintg60-16v said:


> Odd- in this case, the notary IS the sole witness. That's the point of having the notary. The docs allow space for an owner and co-owner - perhaps the bank was confused by the format? My bank notarized my offer today w/ no issues.


Yeah, we also looked at this and thought it appeared a bit odd, but our notary explained to us that it was just in case there was a coo-owner on the vehicle so both signatures are properly notarized, and since the car we have the offer on is only in my husband's name, it was a simple sign stamp and be done  (oh, and now the next wait and staring at the *EYEBALL OF DOOM* :laugh


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

Not sure if I've seen this covered, but does anyone with an early lease termination know how mileage may affect the final compensation payment? I'm about 15,000 miles under my allowance for the lease term, so I'm just wondering if that could possibly lead to a larger buyback payment to me than what the online offer was.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Skizzle1111 said:


> Not sure if I've seen this covered, but does anyone with an early lease termination know how mileage may affect the final compensation payment? I'm about 15,000 miles under my allowance for the lease term, so I'm just wondering if that could possibly lead to a larger buyback payment to me than what the online offer was.


I think the answer is nobody gets extra money for being under the mileage allowed.


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

dmorrow said:


> I think the answer is nobody gets extra money for being under the mileage allowed.


Fair enough :thumbup:


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

VT1.8T said:


> Why do you need to finalize now? Pick a date now, and then change it when the time comes if you decided to hang on to the car a bit. I originally scheduled for 12/16, then rescheduled to 1/6 realizing I would gain a bunch of allowed miles by delaying three weeks. Now that the snow tires are going on the TDI this week, i am likely to push it out until February, the last month of its registration.


i posted about this not too long back.

a couple of things going on.

license tabs are expired now, so the car is sitting and cannot be driven.
the wife is pretty set on an asap buy back because we have too many cars, and this would be an easy way to get rid of one with almost no effort.
she feels like it will be extra effort to KEEP the car and rearrange everything for the buy back at a later date in the future.
also doing the buy back now puts almost $10k in the bank into our 'next house' down payment fund.

i have done what i can to argue each of the points above, and to point out some advantage of NOT doing the buy back now... but honestly for my wife the lack of depreciation/locked in value/etc for the TDI over the next two years isn't as big of an incentive for her since the numbers there are a little 'fuzzy' when compared to no more $400/mo car loan AND putting $10k in the bank.

even being a math teacher (or maybe especially being), she needs to see it on paper in front of her to compare... she doesn't do well with visualizing the numbers.

maybe if we only had 4 cars or even more likely at 3 cars, delaying the buy back would be a lot easier of a sell honestly.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> i posted about this not too long back.
> 
> a couple of things going on.
> 
> ...


For anyone that has more cars than they need the smartest financial decision is to get rid of one or more of them. :thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

dmorrow said:


> For anyone that has more cars than they need the smartest financial decision is to get rid of one or more of them. :thumbup::thumbup:


sure.

and i am willing to get rid of the Audi and Saab, while keeping the VW.
OR...
if we do the ASAP buy back on the VW, and I get rid of the Audi.

so either way I am getting rid of two cars.

now obviously the Audi/Saab dont have near the value of the VW + restitution... so that seems like a smart choice.
BUT.
the VW value is locked for the next two years. so it could be driven for two years, then returned for the same money as today.

this is where the decision is harder for me.
either way its a positive, financially, since we would either be getting rid of two cars, or two cars.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

Has anyone actually brought their VW back with missing bumpers, sets, doors radio etc?


----------



## shuko (Jul 24, 2007)

So a little non-update.

I got a "your document is rejected" notice even though it's a state certified proof of registration.

Called hotline, told it was escalated and I would be called within *3 business days.* 5 business days later, still no call. I call back. I'm told before I can even finish my explanation that call backs are now taking much longer than promised, and to wait at least *3 weeks* for a call back from a supervisor.

Frustration level somewhere between dealing with Comcast and AT&T.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

PolishSasquatch said:


> Has anyone actually brought their VW back with missing bumpers, sets, doors radio etc?


i am very certain i saw someone missing the whole front bumper, grill, lights setup on their buy back.
will have to look for the link

Edit:
here it is: https://www.reddit.com/r/tdi/comments/5evfvu/my_buyback_is_done/


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

shuko said:


> Frustration level somewhere between dealing with Comcast and AT&T.


Okay, that cracked me up... Hang in there, hope they call soon. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

shuko said:


> Frustration level somewhere between dealing with Comcast and AT&T.


Unlike most other call services they know you aren't going anywhere and won't just decide to not participate.


----------



## todcp (Mar 6, 2005)

Just received my offer. 

YEA, it took just over five weeks from the green check marks. Car was financed VW Credit.


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

Notarized Offer approved in 2 business days and appointment set for 12/23. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## dvandentop (Jun 8, 2011)

Sounds like they really ramping up


----------



## bhamss (Dec 1, 2016)

todcp said:


> Just received my offer.
> 
> YEA, it took just over five weeks from the green check marks. Car was financed VW Credit.


congrats. fingers crossed. I am in week six hoping thats as high as I go.


----------



## dvandentop (Jun 8, 2011)

Was that picture of car with front bumper missing an Actual buy back car?


----------



## bhamss (Dec 1, 2016)

just noticed that the website added a click to chat button on there. So you can ask about your claim and they can tell you they dont know **** lol


----------



## typevw (Oct 21, 2016)

Update - scheduled my appointment today (Tue 12/6), about 3 business days after I uploaded the notarized acceptance on Thu 12/1.

Earliest avail in 2 weeks on Wed 12/21. This is in the DC area.

Next order of business - maybe a trip to the junkyard for the cheapest steel wheels? If it's gonna be junked, why not look the part 


typevw said:


> On 11/17 - I received status that they were determining my eligibility, all required documents have been submitted. -- next step is due in 10 business days --.
> On 12/1 - I received an email directing me to download the offer letter. Printed everything, got it Notarized and uploaded back to VW the same day.
> On ?? - getting closer - hope to receive notice to schedule the turn in.
> 
> [...]?


----------



## GregPL85 (Jun 10, 2014)

Notarized Letter accepted/ Approved on 12/6
Scheduled to turn in the TDI on 12/17


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

dvandentop said:


> Was that picture of car with front bumper missing an Actual buy back car?


According to the Reddit link, yes.

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk


----------



## turbokirby (Sep 5, 2014)

Week 5 of green check marks... also financed with VW credit, lady in my office who owned her car and started her buyback months after I did already has her drop off date.


----------



## dvandentop (Jun 8, 2011)

turbokirby said:


> Week 5 of green check marks... also financed with VW credit, lady in my office who owned her car and started her buyback months after I did already has her drop off date.


Seems like owners who own outright less hoops to jump through and less background work for vw


----------



## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

Got my offer letter yesterday, one month after uploading docs.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

aj4066 said:


> My local dealer gave me $1,000 loyalty plus 'invoice price'. $1,000 to stay with VW after this....:screwy:
> 
> Also, I have $126 goodwill money available on my card. What should I spend it on? $126 worth of that awesome smelling washer fluid or Oakley VW etched glasses (which would be great mowing glasses that cost me nothing).


It will be interesting to see if the dealer offers anything. The dealer where I'm returning the golf is where I tested a GTI a few months ago. They'd have to offer me a hell of a deal to keep me there.



Sump said:


> Mini USA sent me a $500 'rebate' card for being a VW TDI owner to jump brands. lol Also go a $1,000 offer from Hyundai but that was a while ago.


I got the Hyundai and Mini ones as well.



rick8018 said:


> How did you get this? Just luck? We will probably be buying a certified Mini this weekend and $500 off would be pretty sweet.


Just showed up in the mail the other day. It's just a notification, not a coupon or anything so if you ask the dealer about it and let them know you're a TDI owner they may give you the same deal. Can't remember if it was on only new purchases or not.


----------



## bad_news (Oct 26, 2006)

oldschool eighty8 said:


> Got my offer letter yesterday, one month after uploading docs.




My Docs were accepted on Nov. 4. Got my offer letter late yesterday afternoon. Today I uploaded my notarized documents.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

Luckily I can get my documents notarized as a courtesy by my firm's legal department so that's more money saved haha

That being said, does the 90 day buyback appointment window start from the day you got your documents notarized or the date you were sent your final offer from?


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

typevw said:


> Next order of business - maybe a trip to the junkyard for the cheapest steel wheels? If it's gonna be junked, why not look the part


I think you would find that by the time you buy the steel wheels, get the tires switched over, and sell your used aluminum wheels that the whole process wouldn't be worth the time or money to bother.


----------



## andyA6 (Nov 10, 2000)

Finally got the step 15 approved, got offer letter, off to the notary.... let's see how fast this goes. We have financing through VW credit FWIW.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

DUBPL8 said:


> That being said, does the 90 day buyback appointment window start from the day you got your documents notarized or the date you were sent your final offer from?


Looks like the window is 90 days from the beginning of the next month. I scheduled mine yesterday and the furthest out date I could pick was 3/29.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

veedubBiker said:


> It will be interesting to see if the dealer offers anything. The dealer where I'm returning the golf is where I tested a GTI a few months ago. They'd have to offer me a hell of a deal to keep me there.


They needed to offer me more than the $1000 loyalty that they are offering every other customer to stick around. 

If you are looking for a GTI, Lindsay VW by far has the best price. The internet price doesn't include a few things, but they were $2,800 under what my local dealer called 'invoice pricing'.


----------



## Astronaut3000 (Sep 9, 2002)

veedubBiker said:


> It will be interesting to see if the dealer offers anything. The dealer where I'm returning the golf is where I tested a GTI a few months ago. They'd have to offer me a hell of a deal to keep me there.


My local dealer is offering $4k for loyalty on top of the $1k from VW, if I trade my TDI in. I get to park the car there till VW pulls their head out and sends me an offer letter (Still waiting, still pissed), and I keep the full buyback amount. Basically the incentive is $5k and free storage. 
But they have nothing I'm interested in. If they still offered it, I might have got a Passat wagon for wifey, but nothing they offer fits our needs anymore (aside from a Touareg but I'm not taking a bath on a brand new $50k SUV) Adios, VW. :wave:


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)




----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


>


me irl


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


>


Me too. Uploaded 9/17.


----------



## enzo1187 (Jun 1, 2005)

I received the letter today and am more than happy with what they are offering. What I'm wondering is how long can I wait to return the letter and turn in the car? I'm in a transition period with my job. Not sure whether or not I will need a commuter/winter car at my next job. Therefore, I'm reluctant to purchase a beater with my proceeds and do not want to drive my M3 through the winter. I'm sure this has been covered, but the thread is over 400 pages.


----------



## maydaymike (Dec 12, 2014)

To anyone that has turned theirs in already... any issue giving it back with only one key? The wife lost one of them fairly early on, and haven't bothered to replace it. Surely this is pretty common with the older cars.


----------



## Beaumont Livingston (Nov 14, 2016)

maydaymike said:


> To anyone that has turned theirs in already... any issue giving it back with only one key? The wife lost one of them fairly early on, and haven't bothered to replace it. Surely this is pretty common with the older cars.


I returned mine with one key that was broken in half.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

enzo1187 said:


> I received the letter today and am more than happy with what they are offering. What I'm wondering is how long can I wait to return the letter and turn in the car? I'm in a transition period with my job. Not sure whether or not I will need a commuter/winter car at my next job. Therefore, I'm reluctant to purchase a beater with my proceeds and do not want to drive my M3 through the winter. I'm sure this has been covered, but the thread is over 400 pages.


regardless of their offer or you signing/notarizing/returning the offer for them to review... YOU pick the return date. nothing is forcing you to pick on ASAP.
all the numbers in the offer are fluid from the loan buyback, to the mileage adjustment.

just proceed however you need to to cover yourself.
IMO, you should get the offer letter sign ad notarized, then return it asap. that way the paperwork 'processing' is done, then its just down to you (AT ANYTIME) to select a buyback appointment date of your choice..
also note, that even if you pick a date, you can always change that date, though you may have to call in to make that change.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Did anyone see what I saw when scheduling their appointment, where your local dealer only had like one or two days per week and only a few time slots (all at the same time of day) for like 3-4 moths out?

I stopped by my local dealer (not doing the buyback there because the online time slots don't work for me), and they said the VW buyback specialist is there everyday and the turn in have been slow. And that the specialist was not aware that the online calendar was only offering a few time slots on certain days.

I wondering if there was an issue with the online calendar?


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

WOOT! Just got my offer letter.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dvandentop said:


> Seems like owners who own outright less hoops to jump through and less background work for vw


I started both mine on 11/12

One i owned outright the other is VW credit

I just got my offer letter on the financed one today nothing on the one I own. So hoops or not that doesn't seem to be a factor in the speed to get it processed.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

maydaymike said:


> To anyone that has turned theirs in already... any issue giving it back with only one key? The wife lost one of them fairly early on, and haven't bothered to replace it. Surely this is pretty common with the older cars.


owned/financed it would not be a problem

Lease it is like a normal return and would be an issue.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

AJB said:


> Did anyone see what I saw when scheduling their appointment, where your local dealer only had like one or two days per week and only a few time slots (all at the same time of day) for like 3-4 moths out?
> 
> I stopped by my local dealer (not doing the buyback there because the online time slots don't work for me), and they said the VW buyback specialist is there everyday and the turn in have been slow. And that the specialist was not aware that the online calendar was only offering a few time slots on certain days.
> 
> I wondering if there was an issue with the online calendar?


Seems strange to me that the VW buyback specialist didn't look at their calendar for cars coming in and notice (or make the connection of what has been happening) that everyone is coming in on the same 2 days a week at the same time of day for the next 3 months and not wonder why.

If true I have to believe the numbers are being controlled (keep the overall system from being over run) and this person isn't very smart or aware of what is going on.


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

If I were VW, I'd be doing this if I were splitting one buyback person across two dealerships, or if it was a dealership with a small lot and transport of the cars to the storage area was a problem--you know, like the car carrier delivers new cars every Wednesday, and can only haul back the TDI's that day. Anyway, that's my guess and I'm sticking with it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Without finding the post, I will remind readers that I was wondering if we get a check or a deposit as neither were offered on my scheduling screen. I called the TDI hotline last evening about 9pm EST and got right through. The lady I spoke with seemed to be a bit unsure and had to ask. 

-she said that "Everyone is automatically set up for a direct deposit but the VW turn in rep has the ability to cut checks on the spot". She said that once you turn the car in, and if you DON'T get a check, VW has 3 business days to send you an email to input direct deposit info. Once the direct deposit info gets input, its generally quick to get a deposit. 

My turn in is the 19th, so we will see what happens then. 

:thumbup:


----------



## Sinrule (Sep 10, 2008)

How are people receiving notification for buyback?

I have a lien on my car and I don't know if I'm supposed to receive notification in the mail or if I'm supposed to print out the final offer and get it notarized, scanned, submitted...


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

Sinrule said:


> How are people receiving notification for buyback?
> 
> I have a lien on my car and I don't know if I'm supposed to receive notification in the mail or if I'm supposed to print out the final offer and get it notarized, scanned, submitted...


Did you already receive the offer letter from VW? If so, the next step is to get it notarized and uploaded back into the portal to get it into the review cycle. Once it's been reviewed and marked complete, you will get another notification through the portal that you can then log in and choose your buyback date.


----------



## BudPytko (Apr 22, 2012)

*Anyone in maryland got an appointment for turn-in yet?*

All my papers were accepted Oct 27th.... haven't heard a thing since????


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


>


I should have posted this weeks ago, I got an offer this morning. Now to find a notary, submit docs and wait again...


----------



## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

oldschool eighty8 said:


> Got my offer letter yesterday, one month after uploading docs.


Approved this morning and buyback scheduled for 12/28.


----------



## Sinrule (Sep 10, 2008)

veedubBiker said:


> Did you already receive the offer letter from VW? If so, the next step is to get it notarized and uploaded back into the portal to get it into the review cycle. Once it's been reviewed and marked complete, you will get another notification through the portal that you can then log in and choose your buyback date.


I have not received an offer letter. How is the offer letter being sent to everyone? Are people getting the offer letter in the mail or via email?


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Mine is going back to her mother-ship on Saturday. Maybe some smoky Tdi burn-outs for the ride home tomorrow.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

Sinrule said:


> I have not received an offer letter. How is the offer letter being sent to everyone? Are people getting the offer letter in the mail or via email?


I received my offer letter and have a confirmed buyback date. The only notification of any kind I have received to date was back in July when I got a confirmation of registration email on the site. I just kept logging in to check status and that's how I knew the status had changed.


----------



## Sinrule (Sep 10, 2008)

bdc12 said:


> I received my offer letter and have a confirmed buyback date. The only notification of any kind I have received to date was back in July when I got a confirmation of registration email on the site. I just kept logging in to check status and that's how I knew the status had changed.


Well this is reassuring, haha.

I've been checking back on the site, all I've been seeing are those dreaded Step 15 green checks. CHANGE, DAMN YOU! CHANGE!


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

Sinrule said:


> I have not received an offer letter. How is the offer letter being sent to everyone? Are people getting the offer letter in the mail or via email?


If you've registered via the portal and uploaded your documents there for approval, you should get an email notification when your offer is available and you can log in and download it.

If you mailed in hard copies of your documents, you will get a hard copy of your offer letter in the mail.


----------



## Sinrule (Sep 10, 2008)

veedubBiker said:


> If you've registered via the portal and uploaded your documents there for approval, you should get an email notification when your offer is available and you can log in and download it.
> 
> If you mailed in hard copies of your documents, you will get a hard copy of your offer letter in the mail.


Okay, this makes a lot more sense.

I did everything online so I just need to wait for that fabled email.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

Sinrule said:


> Okay, this makes a lot more sense.
> 
> I did everything online so I just need to wait for that fabled email.


See my post above. You might be waiting forever. I'd keep checking the site if I were you. I did everything electronically as well.


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

AJB said:


> Mine is going back to her mother-ship on Saturday. Maybe some smoky Tdi burn-outs for the ride home tomorrow.


I think this is how I'm going to pull into the dealer if/when I ever get an appointment... my husband's is scheduled for 12/23 while I still wait for the offer (docs approved 11/3)


----------



## todcp (Mar 6, 2005)

So 5.5 weeks from green check mark to offer email. Uploaded notarized docs next day and was approved a day later, today. First available date to turn in was Jan 4.


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

*Ormond Beach, FL 32174 reporting in with my update *



Claim docs uploaded September 24th
Claim docs approved October 21st
Offer pkg letter received December 2nd
Offer pkg letter signed/notarized and uploaded to portal December 2nd
Offer pkg letter accepted by VW December 5th
Buyback appointment scheduled for Jan 5th. Was the earliest available in my area.
Have a :beer: and wait for the EFT to hit the bank


----------



## Volkl (Oct 2, 2003)

Well, I received my offer letter yesterday. My understanding was that the buybacks for the 2015s were based on a percentage off the MSRP. The offer seems pretty low when you look at that. 

Does anyone know what that percentage figure is? If the figure the offered me is correct, the buyback offer is 68% of MSRP, for a vehicle I had owned for 2 months.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Volkl said:


> Well, I received my offer letter yesterday. My understanding was that the buybacks for the 2015s were based on a percentage off the MSRP. The offer seems pretty low when you look at that.
> 
> Does anyone know what that percentage figure is? If the figure the offered me is correct, the buyback offer is 68% of MSRP, for a vehicle I had owned for 2 months.


I noticed that on mine as well, which is sort of eluded to in the court documents but I don't recall ever seeing 2015 specifically.

I think sticker on mine was 32,800

Base price is 31421, minus restitution of 7726 and minus manual is another 810 so they are saying car is 22,885


So that is 70% before any mileage adjustment.

Mine was 45 days out from this so I feel you on the depreciation that close but since it is generically by model year others had theirs 12 months and that is probably about right. Although for model year 2015 people you'd think maybe they would have done a little better. Maybe trade in was worse and this is in our favor.


----------



## Volkl (Oct 2, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> I noticed that on mine as well, which is sort of eluded to in the court documents but I don't recall ever seeing 2015 specifically.
> 
> I think sticker on mine was 32,800
> 
> ...


I called the hotline, got right through by the way, and they directed me to the Plaintiff Counsel. I called the Plaintiff Counsel number and left a voicemail for a return call. We'll see if they get back to me, and what they say.


----------



## dvandentop (Jun 8, 2011)

chris86vw said:


> I noticed that on mine as well, which is sort of eluded to in the court documents but I don't recall ever seeing 2015 specifically.
> 
> I think sticker on mine was 32,800
> 
> ...


Damn how much is your total offer then? I would have taken it off your hands at their offer price


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

Offer letter came in Monday, uploaded Tuesday, approved Wednesday. Appointment scheduled for January 4th


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dvandentop said:


> Damn how much is your total offer then? I would have taken it off your hands at their offer price


30,800 with mileage penalty since i have just shy of 25k on it since july of 2015.

Paid ~31,500 out the door so cost me 700 bucks to drive the car 2500 miles, BUT I had a car allowance for work which after taxes covered about 2500 bucks I think it was, so really I made roughly 1800 bucks. That probably covered insurance during that time so really it cost me fuel to drive 25k miles.

If you factor in the gift cards that paid for my 20k service parts and then had left over money I had a fully loaded GSW for a year and a half for less than a Versa lease :laugh:

I had no plans to turn in or get rid of the 2015 since I really love this car, but partner and I are having a hard time getting a house in the town we want to live in but there is a lot for sale. So we are considering building a house, decided getting rid of the car payment made that easier. Once I did the math it was a no brainer.


----------



## bhamss (Dec 1, 2016)

about to enter week 7 of green checks. VW has hired more on their end but its the 3rd party agents reviewing the claims and generating the offers where they need to amp up.


----------



## bhamss (Dec 1, 2016)

Jalopnik has a article up from a couple days ago that basically confirms everyones fears that only a tiny % of financed cars are being bought back along wiht a bunch of other really good info

http://http://jalopnik.com/owners-are-right-volkswagen-is-missing-its-dieselgate-1789779967


----------



## BadassLilGolf (Mar 21, 2001)

Took a month to get our offer. Got it notarized and uploaded this past Tuesday and less than 24 hours had approval and a date scheduled. 12/30 it goes back. Still had financing through vw credit.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

bhamss said:


> Jalopnik has a article up from a couple days ago that basically confirms everyones fears that only a tiny % of financed cars are being bought back along wiht a bunch of other really good info
> 
> http://http://jalopnik.com/owners-are-right-volkswagen-is-missing-its-dieselgate-1789779967


Here is a working link: http://jalopnik.com/owners-are-right-volkswagen-is-missing-its-dieselgate-1789779967

And the text so people don't have to suffer through the gawker website:



> The firm appointed by the court to make sure Volkswagen adheres to the rules outlined in the $14.7 billion Dieselgate settlement just issued a progress report detailing the struggles the automaker has had accommodating customers who just want this disaster over with. And that report confirms that all the frustrations owners have had with the buyback are legitimate.
> 
> Last month, I wrote a story about how VW TDI customers—who had been duped by Volkswagen cheating on Federal emissions tests—were outraged with the way Volkswagen has handled the buyback claims process. Many owners complained about long telephone hold times for the claims hotline, VW missing deadlines, and the automaker giving preferential treatment to owners with paid-off cars.
> 
> ...


----------



## bhamss (Dec 1, 2016)

thanks ...what a cluster **** right?


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Ahh..my last drive in my tdi....


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Both of mine have been done in a timely manner.

2015 (financed)

initial docs 11/12
accepted 11/21
offer letter 12/8
notarized and uploaded 12/8
awaiting approval and turn in date


2012 (paid for)

initial docs 11/12
issue with one of them notified on 11/22*
accepted 11/28
offer letter about an hour ago 12/10
Will get notarized and uploaded monday.





* I knew my documents were going to be an issue I just wanted to get it started, I had to get a new title issued and in doing so they took my old registration card and issued me a temporary one until the new title came. The title came but the new card lagged a few days, I tried my luck and submitted it with the temp reg first and they didn't like that.



I think holding the 2012 until january will bump me down a mileage bracket so I may do that. I want the 2015 gone asap so I can transfer the tags to my allroad and waiting until jan won't change my bracket.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Well, I'm no longer a Vw owner. The actual buyback took less than 10 minutes.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

buy back appt is set for Feb 4th 1130am.

we are out of town when the very first appointments show available, Dev 27th.
then thinking about making it easier to get the wife and I both at the appointment, we decided on a Saturday appt. this limited the where and when somewhat.

also our current mileage plus (or minus, however you want to look at it) the allowance VW is giving means that instead of taking the first available Saturday appt on Jan 21st if we wait another 2 weeks until Feb 4th, we get a higher buy back amount.

seems like a no brainer to me to keep the car just another 2 weeks and end up with over $500 net new cash into our pockets.
its only 2 more weeks. storing the car for that short of time is fine. yeah its basically another car payment out, but we are really only out the interest on that, so about $25... to get $540 more.

overall I think the timeline has been fine.

3rd party loan
09/30 - docs uploaded
10/28 - doc review completed
11/28 - final offer received
11/29 - notarized offer returned
12/05 - date I could select a buyback appt.
02/04 - date I selected for my buyback appt.

for VW's part, that really is only just over 2 months from beginning to end. my side adds another 2 months, but again that's a combination of my travel plans getting in the way and my own choice to get a little more $$$ paid out.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> buy back appt is set for Feb 4th 1130am.
> 
> we are out of town when the very first appointments show available, Dev 27th.
> then thinking about making it easier to get the wife and I both at the appointment, we decided on a Saturday appt. this limited the where and when somewhat.
> ...


I may keep my 2012 until feb also. I'd be 290 miles over for a january turn in. insurance is like 50 bucks and I have room. 

Keeping it to feb gets me another couple hundred bucks 

My 2015 I'd rather get back asap since I"m making payments on it. I parked it since thanksgiving since if needed it has enough for a dec turn in without going over miles and doing all our holiday driving if I don't get the allroad done in time.


----------



## jwhuffandpuff (May 8, 2008)

I haven't seen anyone here post about making an error on their documents, I am interested in seeing if this has affected lead times.

I got my offer letter on 08DEC16 and had it notarized twice, once for me once for the cosigner. The issue I ran into is the cosigner didn't sign the buy back offer initially. I uploaded the document and then did the review of the files ( yeah, reverse order). I called VW over the weekend to see if they could pull the document I uploaded so I could re upload the completed document. They told me the website was down (which it wasn't) and then told me I had to fax it in to them. So I did that this morning, I am crossing my fingers that this wont adversely affect my processing times.

Also, has anyone used the fax? I don't know how to confirm they received the fax besides calling them and waiting on hold for an hour.


EDIT: despite having an option in the phone menu system to change uploaded documents, i was unable to reach an operator and was hung up on. I also was able to locate a "check status of mailed/ faxed documents" and that was also a dead end, aparently that can take up to two weeks and they do not allow you to check the status, only to tell you to wait. :/


----------



## bhamss (Dec 1, 2016)

Green checks on 11/1
Offer letter 12/12 yippie


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

9/17 Documents uploaded
10/13 Documents approved
11/19 Date of Offer Letter
12/12 Offer Letter received
12/12 Notarized Offer Letter uploaded

We'll see how long it takes to confirm the signature and notarization.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

our TDI goes back this Saturday 12/17


----------



## Lucian1988 (Mar 25, 2009)

my dad got an offer already and signed it, notarized it and scheduled Jan 9th to turn the car in. 

now the 2nd car, is on hold due to my sister being out of the country, and still has about a year left to pay.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

I still haven't gotten an offer letter yet, I uploaded mu Docs 10/4 :laugh:


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

.yuk. said:


> I still haven't gotten an offer letter yet, I uploaded mu Docs 10/4 :laugh:


no favoritism eh?

almost like anti-favoritism... :laugh:


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

And mistakes are happening all the time. They get corrected and reviewed quickly if you don't have a loan :laugh:


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

dunhamjr said:


> no favoritism eh?
> 
> almost like anti-favoritism... :laugh:


Absolutely Zero. Lol. But you guys are getting done!!


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Many people seem to be reporting next day turnaround for doc review when the offer letter is signed and uploaded, I am not so fortunate so far. Really wanting to get the car out my garage to make room for my new car.


----------



## bhamss (Dec 1, 2016)

hopefully we get some solid news this friday when they report to the judge on the 3.0 progress. I love my Touareg so I hope its not a part of the early gen that they have to buy back. Hope fully that news is let out so we know what we are lookng at


----------



## SoLo2pointO (Jul 12, 2001)

Docs uploaded 10/7
Docs approved 11/1...

Offer letter nowhere to be found. But I do have my replacement vehicle already, so I got that goin' for me.


----------



## 2.0(slow) (Sep 8, 2013)

Hello guys,

Some questions. I have scheduled my buyback for 9/1/2017. In the meantime I will be getting my replacement vehicle. I want to transfer the plates from the old to the new car. Do you know if they will accept the car if I have transferred the plates?

Thanks


----------



## fortyfive1911a1 (Aug 25, 2014)

.yuk. said:


> I still haven't gotten an offer letter yet, I uploaded mu Docs 10/4 :laugh:


Might want to check on it. I had all my paperwork approved and cash in the bank in less than 2 weeks. 

Pretty sure I got the express lane because I don't have the TDI anymore so it was just getting back 1/2 of the restitution. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

2.0(slow) said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> Some questions. I have scheduled my buyback for 9/1/2017. In the meantime I will be getting my replacement vehicle. I want to transfer the plates from the old to the new car. Do you know if they will accept the car if I have transferred the plates?
> 
> Thanks


Yes, plates don't matter. I had already transferred the plates and drove it to the dealer with my GTI plate just to not around suspicion from the cops. They didn't look at the registration.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Sump said:


> Yes, plates don't matter. I had already transferred the plates and drove it to the dealer with my GTI plate just to not around suspicion from the cops. They didn't look at the registration.


Yeah technically you don't need plates to turn the car in..but here in NJ, good luck driving on the road without plates....

Anyway my EFT will be completed tomorrow.


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

Sump said:


> Yes, plates don't matter. I had already transferred the plates and drove it to the dealer with my GTI plate just to not around suspicion from the cops. They didn't look at the registration.


LOL even better... I'm actually going to the DMV tomorrow to do a midstream plate swap so I keep the reserved tags off my Golf on the GLI, since my buyback is going nowhere fast.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Finally got my appointment set for January 13th in Durham (40 mins away). The one-month countdown begins!

Docs Submitted 9/25
Approved 11/2
Offer Received 12/8
Notarized Docs Submitted 12/8
Appointment Email Received 12/13
Turn-in Date 1/13


----------



## shuko (Jul 24, 2007)

Mess up a document (namely giving them anything other than a "registration receipt" even if it's a state certified proof of registration document) and resubmit... you'll be in limbo...










The day they rejected the first document I _mailed_ a check and form to Texas DMV, and called the VW hotline to appeal. Still waiting on that "issue escalation call back" from VW, but the Texas DMV had time to process the form and mail me a response.

I figured I'd be better off resubmitting a different document than trying to convince frazzled claims personnel that my first one was acceptable.

So...

8/9/16 Option confirmation
10/7/16 Both documents submitted (blue eyeballs)
10/24/16 Both documents accepted (green check marks)
11/30/16 Proof of registration rejected, "we'll call you within 3 business days." Still no call from VW...
12/10/16 Replacement registration document resubmitted via claims portal


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

AJB said:


> Yeah technically you don't need plates to turn the car in..but here in NJ, good luck driving on the road without plates....


Thank goodness every one of these cars has VW provided roadside assistance to make it to tow it the dealer


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

shuko said:


> Mess up a document (namely giving them anything other than a "registration receipt" even if it's a state certified proof of registration document) and resubmit... you'll be in limbo...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had mine approved 6 days after resubmitting with my permanent registration in place of the temp one the state had issued me.


Just got offer stuff approved on my 2015, need to submit it for the 2012. Looks like around 1/10 tentative turn in just need to double check with the GF on a ride home.


----------



## jwhuffandpuff (May 8, 2008)

chris86vw said:


> I had mine approved 6 days after resubmitting with my permanent registration in place of the temp one the state had issued me.
> 
> 
> Just got offer stuff approved on my 2015, need to submit it for the 2012. Looks like around 1/10 tentative turn in just need to double check with the GF on a ride home.



6 days gives me hope,


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

So....I went to use my dealer loyalty card on some random things from the parts store before turn in and realized the loyalty card expires 1 year after issuance date. -so for me, it expired a month ago. :banghead::banghead:

USE YOUR LOYALTY CARD!!!!


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

E CODE said:


> Thank goodness every one of these cars has VW provided roadside assistance to make it to tow it the dealer


That's a good point... as long as it on a flatbead, as it technically illegal to tow a car with any of its wheels on the ground here in NJ if it not registered. Heck you are not even technically allowed to have an unregistered car on your property even if you never drive it.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AJB said:


> That's a good point... as long as it on a flatbead, as it technically illegal to tow a car with any of its wheels on the ground here in NJ if it not registered. Heck you are not even technically allowed to have an unregistered car on your property even if you never drive it.


Commercial towing is likely exempt from that law as they have different insurance/bonding that would cover liability claims against them that would not exist in a private situation.

Think of the scenario where a town calls the private (commercial) towing company to remove an illegally parked car and then the tow drive gets pulled over and ticketed for towing it not having a clue that it wasn't registered?


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

AJB said:


> Yeah technically you don't need plates to turn the car in..but here in NJ, good luck driving on the road without plates....
> 
> Anyway my EFT will be completed tomorrow.


 Yeah that's why I put active plates on it and hand full insurance put back on for the day. There was definitely some risk but took back roads the 9 miles to dealer.

My ETF funds are now pending in available balance after turn in Saturday (chase to chase accts). Got the chase email about 8pm last night. Glad this is finally over.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

I guess I should look into this.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Got my approval letter yesterday, turn-in appointment is scheduled for 1/12. Cleaned out the rest of my crap yesterday, and started it - the battery is definitely stale after 4+ months of storage. Put it on the trickle charger in the meantime. Still need to pull the short shifter out and swap on my cheaper set of wheels/tires (used for snow chain duty) since the Michelins on the stock wheels are practically brand new. My plan is to have it towed to the dealer, as it is non-op'ed and only carrying comp. insurance. Looks like several people on TDIclub have done the same.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

*Snail mail documents*

I got my offer on November 3rd, got them notarized and mailed via snail-mail on Nov 29th. Finally got blue-eye on Step 17 'validation' this morning Dec. 13, so now they have to review the notarized docs.

Anyway, moral of story, don't snail-mail if you need speedy responses . . .


----------



## byoonak (May 2, 2009)

Turned car in at 6:30PM on Friday, 12/9. Received receipt immediately from VWGoA. Yesterday, 12/12, at 5:26PM, received email from Chase for the EFT and to create account. Funds were in my USAA account this morning. Pretty painless process.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Got my approval letter yesterday, turn-in appointment is scheduled for 1/12. Cleaned out the rest of my crap yesterday, and started it - the battery is definitely stale after 4+ months of storage. Put it on the trickle charger in the meantime. Still need to pull the short shifter out and swap on my cheaper set of wheels/tires (used for snow chain duty) since the Michelins on the stock wheels are practically brand new. My plan is to have it towed to the dealer, as it is non-op'ed and only carrying comp. insurance. Looks like several people on TDIclub have done the same.


Question: When did you upload your notarized documents?


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Sump said:


> Yeah that's why I put active plates on it and hand full insurance put back on for the day. There was definitely some risk but took back roads the 9 miles to dealer.
> 
> My ETF funds are now pending in available balance after turn in Saturday (chase to chase accts). Got the chase email about 8pm last night. Glad this is finally over.


So you got the direct deposit email before the turn in? Or you turned it in last Saturday and got the email for ETF transfer at 8pm last night? 

My turn in is Monday the 19th.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

So, anyone stripping anything off the cars? This dude took off the whole front end basically and probably more.

http://jalopnik.com/disgruntled-die...ource=jalopnik_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Oh and I'm still waiting for my offer letter...


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

tomski12 said:


> Question: When did you upload your notarized documents?


12/8, the day I received my offer letter.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

aj4066 said:


> So you got the direct deposit email before the turn in? Or you turned it in last Saturday and got the email for ETF transfer at 8pm last night?
> 
> My turn in is Monday the 19th.


Turn in 12/10 at 11am and Chase email 8pm CST 12/12. Looks like people that turned in later Friday last week got their emails a few hours before me. 

If you're turn in is the 19th I'd imagine you'd get the chase email 12/20 if it's not too late in the day on the 19th turn in.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Nice. Thanks for the info. I might open a chase act just to get the $$ sooner. It will make for an extra special Christmas to have the coin before the weekend.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

SixpackMk3 said:


> So, anyone stripping anything off the cars? This dude took off the whole front end basically and probably more.
> 
> http://jalopnik.com/disgruntled-die...ource=jalopnik_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow
> 
> Oh and I'm still waiting for my offer letter...


I just found a set of craigslist steelies. The buyback guy chuckled that I had 1 of 4 hubcabs on. I kept the sunshade but don't know if anyone would need/want it. But the wheels will cover our tint/clear bra additions to the car.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

aj4066 said:


> Nice. Thanks for the info. I might open a chase act just to get the $$ sooner. It will make for an extra special Christmas to have the coin before the weekend.


Not a terrible idea, I still have Chase for my DD from work.

But Submitted my info at about 8:30PM CST last night and the funds were in my available balance since it was a chase account by 10am next day. It's still pending (will probably officially process tomorrow) but I could hit the ATM hard I guess if I wanted!


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Sump said:


> Not a terrible idea, I still have Chase for my DD from work.
> 
> But Submitted my info at about 8:30PM CST last night and the funds were in my available balance since it was a chase account by 10am next day. It's still pending (will probably officially process tomorrow) but I could hit the ATM hard I guess if I wanted!


yeah, I really appreciate the info. My wife and I are sorta looking for a new bank anyways and this might just be the excuse I needed to look at Chase.


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

I'll probably be keeping my interior trim since it's wrapped, aside from that they are getting a whole car.

If I ever get my offer letter that is.


----------



## BudPytko (Apr 22, 2012)

aj4066 said:


> So....I went to use my dealer loyalty card on some random things from the parts store before turn in and realized the loyalty card expires 1 year after issuance date. -so for me, it expired a month ago. :banghead::banghead:
> 
> USE YOUR LOYALTY CARD!!!!



Call the issuing office...maybe 800# on the back. Others have been successful getting the date extended! Tell 'em you lost the card until ?????.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> So....I went to use my dealer loyalty card on some random things from the parts store before turn in and realized the loyalty card expires 1 year after issuance date. -so for me, it expired a month ago. :banghead::banghead:
> 
> USE YOUR LOYALTY CARD!!!!


My son's card expires on 1/17/17. I was wondering if he could use it to pay someone else's VW service bill and get $400-$450 cash from that person. He is in the SF/San Jose area. 

Otherwise, what does VW sell that is worth buying since he is turning in his car next month.


----------



## euro16v (Dec 12, 1999)

spockcat said:


> My son's card expires on 1/17/17. I was wondering if he could use it to pay someone else's VW service bill and get $400-$450 cash from that person. He is in the SF/San Jose area.
> 
> Otherwise, what does VW sell that is worth buying since he is turning in his car next month.


Buy tires and sell them. Otherwise your idea of paying someone's bill and getting cash is not a bad idea.


----------



## Rugrat Anklebiter (Dec 5, 2000)

Anyone figure out how to upload the notarized two pages required for the final offer as one document? It looks like it can only be a picture format, ie jpg, bmp, etc. I converted it from a docx to a jpeg and uploaded it. I then checked to ensure it looked correct by downloading it and it's too small, you can't read anything even though it is 1240x1515 and looks fine on my end.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Rugrat Anklebiter said:


> Anyone figure out how to upload the notarized two pages required for the final offer as one document? It looks like it can only be a picture format, ie jpg, bmp, etc. I converted it from a docx to a jpeg and uploaded it. I then checked to ensure it looked correct by downloading it and it's too small, you can't read anything even though it is 1240x1515 and looks fine on my end.


No scanner? 400 dpi? Take it to Staples and have them scan it and turn it into a PDF.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

Rugrat Anklebiter said:


> Anyone figure out how to upload the notarized two pages required for the final offer as one document? It looks like it can only be a picture format, ie jpg, bmp, etc. I converted it from a docx to a jpeg and uploaded it. I then checked to ensure it looked correct by downloading it and it's too small, you can't read anything even though it is 1240x1515 and looks fine on my end.


There's an app called scanner pro for the iphone where you can use your phone's camera to make a pdf. I find it's quicker and easier to use than my home all in one printer/scanner.


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

spockcat said:


> My son's card expires on 1/17/17. I was wondering if he could use it to pay someone else's VW service bill and get $400-$450 cash from that person. He is in the SF/San Jose area.
> 
> Otherwise, what does VW sell that is worth buying since he is turning in his car next month.


I posted mine on craigslist for $400 and got ridiculously low-ball offers. In the end, I have a friend who works in the parts department at a VW dealer who was able to order the WeatherTech floor mats for my new 4Runner, and let me use the VW card to pay for them.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

Rugrat Anklebiter said:


> Anyone figure out how to upload the notarized two pages required for the final offer as one document? It looks like it can only be a picture format, ie jpg, bmp, etc. I converted it from a docx to a jpeg and uploaded it. I then checked to ensure it looked correct by downloading it and it's too small, you can't read anything even though it is 1240x1515 and looks fine on my end.


You need to scan and upload *all* pages of the offer not just the signed pages. And PDF format is fine.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

Just got the acceptance of my notarized documents and turn in date. Jan 10.


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

E CODE said:


> Thank goodness every one of these cars has VW provided roadside assistance to make it to tow it the dealer


Winning!


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

spockcat said:


> My son's card expires on 1/17/17. I was wondering if he could use it to pay someone else's VW service bill and get $400-$450 cash from that person. He is in the SF/San Jose area.
> 
> Otherwise, what does VW sell that is worth buying since he is turning in his car next month.


I can confirm this: if you call the number on the back of the $500 loyalty card, even after it has expired, they will reissue you the card with a new expiration date for $5. So if you've got $300 left on the card, they'll send you one for $295. 3-5 weeks, they said. 

If you want to use up the card, I know you don't get the greatest deal on tires at a dealership, but I've read on vwvortex that people have bought new tires for their non-VW cars with the loyalty card. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Hexagonal said:


> If you want to use up the card, I know you don't get the greatest deal on tires at a dealership, but I've read on vwvortex that people have bought new tires for their non-VW cars with the loyalty card.


i did this.
i found the exact tire model i wanted for my Toyota Sienna and had VW order me the tires, they came from Discount Tire.
i paid MAYBE a little bit more by going through VW... but I needed to find a way to spend that free money, so it was a win for me either way.

i then took the tires back to discount and let them do the install since they are about $20-25 per corner cheaper on install than VW was.


----------



## Grip Driver (Feb 16, 1999)

turned in my Sportwagen today, now to wait for the payment.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Tdi turned in Saturday. EFT posted to my account today.

See ya VW at least until you build some I like again.

Actually funny side note, we sold tdi on Saturday and Monday I went with my dad to buy an old air cooled Beetle convertible. Heh so VW is technically still in our family just not in my garage anymore.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Hexagonal said:


> I can confirm this: if you call the number on the back of the $500 loyalty card, even after it has expired, they will reissue you the card with a new expiration date for $5. So if you've got $300 left on the card, they'll send you one for $295. 3-5 weeks, they said.
> 
> If you want to use up the card, I know you don't get the greatest deal on tires at a dealership, but I've read on vwvortex that people have bought new tires for their non-VW cars with the loyalty card.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. When my son gets into town next weeks and has the card with him we will check this. 

I also got the idea to use the card at the body shop of a local VW/BMW dealer in my area to respray the bumper of my wife's car. But I have to get the GM of the dealer group to agree to it since the body shop wouldn't be working on a VW product. 

Another alternative is as you say to buy tires from the VW parts department but neither of our vehicles needs tires now.


----------



## Rugrat Anklebiter (Dec 5, 2000)

I am stunned that VW dealerships haven't made fantastic offers trying to keep our business during the turn ins.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Rugrat Anklebiter said:


> I am stunned that VW dealerships haven't made fantastic offers trying to keep our business during the turn ins.


i honestly don't think that they are allowed to.

edit:
what I mean is 'being allowed to'... officially by VW corporate in the fatherland or VWofA.

the fines and restitution payments going out are a huge hurt $$ wise, giving further discounts and devaluation of the brand with those rebates isn't likely high on anyones list.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

Rugrat Anklebiter said:


> I am stunned that VW dealerships haven't made fantastic offers trying to keep our business during the turn ins.


I'm really surprised too. I was expecting that the restitution paid to dealers by VW would include some sort of purchase incentives to help keep these customers in the brand. Once you lose them to Toyota, Honda, whatever, you not only lose the next few years worth of service revenue, you potentially lose them forever if they have a great experience with the other brand. I read through most of the judgment document and don't recall seeing anything prohibiting incentives to TDI owners, so this policy must be the work of VW corporate.

Audi's incentives are particularly ****ty right now. They're offering one free month of finance payments. That's all- no loyalty cash, no special finance rates, nothing. I called this one completely wrong. I expected big incentives to arrive when buybacks started.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Rugrat Anklebiter said:


> I am stunned that VW dealerships haven't made fantastic offers trying to keep our business during the turn ins.





dunhamjr said:


> i honestly don't think that they are allowed to.
> 
> edit:
> what I mean is 'being allowed to'... officially by VW corporate in the fatherland or VWofA.
> ...





bdc12 said:


> I'm really surprised too. I was expecting that the restitution paid to dealers by VW would include some sort of purchase incentives to help these customers in the brand. Once you lose them to Toyota, Honda, whatever, you not only lose the next few years worth of service revenue, you potentially lose them forever if they have a great experience with the other brand. I read through most of the judgment document and don't recall seeing anything prohibiting incentives to TDI owners, so this policy must be the work of VW corporate.
> 
> Audi's incentives are particularly ****ty right now. They're offering one free month of finance payments. That's all- no loyalty cash, no special finance rates, nothing. I called this one completely wrong. I expected big incentives to arrive when buybacks started.


I agree would have thought there would have been some incentives, but I think the issue is that the dealers are not really involved in the buyback process at all, it really is all VW corporate. I didn't even get approached by one salesperson during my buyback, the VW rep was practically waiting just inside the door for my arrival and took us into a back office where we were in out out in 10 minutes.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Rugrat Anklebiter said:


> I am stunned that VW dealerships haven't made fantastic offers trying to keep our business during the turn ins.





dunhamjr said:


> i honestly don't think that they are allowed to.
> 
> edit:
> what I mean is 'being allowed to'... officially by VW corporate in the fatherland or VWofA.
> ...


There is a $1000 VW loyalty discount available on top of whatever you can negotiate with the dealer. When I stopped in my local dealer yesterday to ask about using my son's old $500 loyalty card, a salesman told me they were making good deals on the Alltrack I was looking at. They had at least 3 in stock. Of course, who needs on in FL?


----------



## ChillOutPossum (Nov 8, 2007)

Grip Driver said:


> turned in my Sportwagen today, now to wait for the payment.


Wait, you turn in the car before getting payment????

How is that right....you should receive payment when you hand over the keys.

How do you know VW will pay you?


----------



## JackStraw79 (Aug 10, 2015)

bdc12 said:


> Audi's incentives are particularly ****ty right now. They're offering one free month of finance payments. That's all- no loyalty cash, no special finance rates, nothing. I called this one completely wrong. I expected big incentives to arrive when buybacks started.


I think the Germans are starting to tire of the "race-to-the-bottom" lease pricing competition and realize that they need to get their average transaction prices up.

On an unrelated note, I am unhappily completing my December PA State registration renewal at the moment with no idea of when I will be turning in this vehicle.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

GoHomePossum said:


> Wait, you turn in the car before getting payment????
> 
> How is that right....you should receive payment when you hand over the keys.
> 
> How do you know VW will pay you?


 I thought that was weird too. The bigger issue I am seeing is people's ETFs are different that what their receipt says but only seen a few cases. Mine was pretty painless. Turn in, next business day ETF email, money in account 12 hours after that.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

spockcat said:


> There is a $1000 VW loyalty discount available on top of whatever you can negotiate with the dealer. When I stopped in my local dealer yesterday to ask about using my son's old $500 loyalty card, a salesman told me they were making good deals on the Alltrack I was looking at. They had at least 3 in stock. Of course, who needs on in FL?


There is $1000 loyalty to every VW owner. I think the thought was something above and beyond that for TDI owners, from VW. 

There is -0- incentive for TDI owners specifically to stay within the brand.


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

JackStraw79 said:


> I am unhappily completing my December PA State registration renewal at the moment with no idea of when I will be turning in this vehicle.


The inspection on our TDI expired 8 months ago. The registration will expire 2 weeks before turn in. The head unit is dead, and the "Service Now!" warning has been blinking for 4 months. Coming in hot, as they say.

Off topic, anyone know how to get CDs out of a dead 6-disc changer? Tools available: Screw driver, hammer, anger.


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

i'll sell you my headunit for cheap!


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

GoHomePossum said:


> Wait, you turn in the car before getting payment????
> 
> How is that right....you should receive payment when you hand over the keys.
> 
> How do you know VW will pay you?


one side has to be the first to 'hand over the keys' so to speak.

which way do you think is more reliable?
for the vehicle owners to sing into the buy back contract and hand over their cars, then wait 1-5 days for payment from the company who has an effective court order/judgement against them...

or

to have VW send out payments, then schedule a buy back appt to take receipt of the car...
never mind the fact that the car owner at that point would not be obligated by the courts directly, meaning they could delay their turn in. which in turn would change the mileage adjustment, for good or bad... meaning another either debit or credit would be needed to complete the transaction. and good luck getting money OUT of those end consumers once VW has already paid them an overage amount... which would potentially end up in more court cases etc just trying to make everything break even.

IMO.
the consumer handing over the car and then getting the money in a few days is how this HAS to happen.

and if VW f's that up, call up the class action lawyers and it WILL be fixed in short order.


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

GTI 20v said:


> The inspection on our TDI expired 8 months ago. The registration will expire 2 weeks before turn in. The head unit is dead, and the "Service Now!" warning has been blinking for 4 months. Coming in hot, as they say.
> 
> Off topic, anyone know how to get CDs out of a dead 6-disc changer? Tools available: Screw driver, hammer, anger.


Long drill bit straight down from the top. Include said anger. Trust me I'm a doctor


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

GTI 20v said:


> Off topic, anyone know how to get CDs out of a dead 6-disc changer? Tools available: Screw driver, hammer, anger.


if it really is dead, then IMO pull the unit from the dash and manually dismantle the thing.


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> if it really is dead, then IMO pull the unit from the dash and manually dismantle the thing.


To remove the HU, I'm thinking of epoxying a disk to the screen, attaching it to a winch, and running the winch cable out the back to the car through the hatch.

I then plan to destroy the removed HU by placing it next to the airbag that I take out of the steering wheel, and letting the explosion and Takata shrapnel take care of the rest.


----------



## andyA6 (Nov 10, 2000)

All approved, earliest turn in date January 11.

Filed November 8.


----------



## clintg60-16v (Dec 13, 2002)

Glad I bought a replacement a few months ago when they had special CPO financing & more selections. Because I agree- there really aren't any purchase incentives to stay loyal to VW right now.


----------



## bhamss (Dec 1, 2016)

All approved. I have around 20 dealers within a 50 mile radius and the earliest was 1/4. 

So the waiting game solely revolves around getting the offer letter and possibly a dealer appointment if you are in a rush


----------



## AndersonT (Nov 29, 2016)

Turned mine in on 13th, took 10minutes.
Got email from Chase on 15th to setup wire.
Money cleared to my non-Chase account this morning (16th).

I asked the turn in rep (who had completed 14 turn-ins) if anybody had brought any stripped down tdis in, he said no, but implied it wouldn't matter.


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

Anyone here other than me opting to get a check?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Hexagonal said:


> Anyone here other than me opting to get a check?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


probably not many. i will be getting an EFT.

why are you getting a check??


----------



## Hexagonal (Nov 17, 2016)

dunhamjr said:


> probably not many. i will be getting an EFT.
> 
> why are you getting a check??


--satisfaction of being able to walk away from the buyback with the money in my grubby little hands, mainly. I get EFT's all the time, so I'm not one of the people who are paranoid about that. I guess what stops a lot of people from getting a check is the hold most banks put on larger checks, but I guess I've waited this long, I can wait a couple of days more, and anyway the hold at my bank is just three days, which is about the time lag the EFT people have been reporting anyway, so that's a wash...


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Hexagonal said:


> --satisfaction of being able to walk away from the buyback with the money in my grubby little hands, mainly. I get EFT's all the time, so I'm not one of the people who are paranoid about that. I guess what stops a lot of people from getting a check is the hold most banks put on larger checks, but I guess I've waited this long, I can wait a couple of days more, and anyway the hold at my bank is just three days, which is about the time lag the EFT people have been reporting anyway, so that's a wash...


hmm ok.
so a mental placebo thing since you know its not actually cash... and you know there will be a bank hold meaning you don't get it that day anyways.

i have mostly found that EFT processing is faster than check holds, but that's just my experience.
and since some bank holds can end up at 7 business days, that can end up being closer to 2 full weeks if the days of the week and length of the hold are both worst case scenario.


----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

Meanwhile...

Judge expected to rule on VW 3.0 liter deal today



Detroit News said:


> _Washington_ — A federal judge is expected to rule on Friday on a deal that calls for Volkswagen to fix or buy back about 80,000 3.0-liter diesel vehicles that were rigged to cheat U.S. emission standards as part of its effort to settle lawsuits and federal investigations.
> 
> The agreement on the table calls for Volkswagen to buy back about 20,000 Audi and VW SUVs and provide a software fix for about 60,000 newer models that were marketed under its Porsche, Audi and VW brands, according to a report from Reuters that cited two sources who are familiar with the talks between VW and federal regulators.
> 
> ...


http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...2016/12/16/judge-rule-vw-liter-deal/95512580/


Am I reading the tea leaves correctly here that a fix won't even be offered for the older 3.0 L diesels?


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

eweu said:


> Am I reading the tea leaves correctly here that a fix won't even be offered for the older 3.0 L diesels?


Sounds like... kinda like they just gave up on them since it was a small number...


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Sump said:


> Turn in 12/10 at 11am and Chase email 8pm CST 12/12. Looks like people that turned in later Friday last week got their emails a few hours before me.
> 
> If you're turn in is the 19th I'd imagine you'd get the chase email 12/20 if it's not too late in the day on the 19th turn in.





Sump said:


> Not a terrible idea, I still have Chase for my DD from work.
> 
> But Submitted my info at about 8:30PM CST last night and the funds were in my available balance since it was a chase account by 10am next day. It's still pending (will probably officially process tomorrow) but I could hit the ATM hard I guess if I wanted!


Chase act established today. -turn in Monday. :thumbup:


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

aj4066 said:


> Chase act established today. -turn in Monday. :thumbup:


Good luck! Find some ****ty craigslist wheels for it this weekend.


----------



## thegoose (Nov 28, 2008)

Got my appointment for the buyback. January 13th. That's right...Friday the 13th. :laugh:


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

Turning mine in in an hour and a half. I'll report how it goes.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW agrees to pay $200M to offset 3.0-liter diesel emissions, report says*



> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen AG has agreed to pay just over $200 million to offset emissions from about 80,000 3.0-liter diesel U.S. vehicles, a source told Reuters.
> 
> The agreement is expected to be announced as early as today, and is in addition to $2.7 billion that VW previously agreed to pay to offset emissions from about 475,000 2.0-liter diesel vehicles. U.S. District Judge Charles Breyer today delayed a hearing until later in the day so negotiations can continue over reaching a final resolution on the 3.0-liter vehicles.
> 
> ...


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

Skizzle1111 said:


> Turning mine in in an hour and a half. I'll report how it goes.


Good luck! Hubby's wagon goes same time next Friday night (while I sit here, still waiting on my offer since docs were approved on 11/3)


----------



## BudPytko (Apr 22, 2012)

GTI 20v said:


> The inspection on our TDI expired 8 months ago. The registration will expire 2 weeks before turn in. The head unit is dead, and the "Service Now!" warning has been blinking for 4 months. Coming in hot, as they say.
> 
> Off topic, anyone know how to get CDs out of a dead 6-disc changer? Tools available: Screw driver, hammer, anger.


Remove the ground lead off the battery and turn on headlight switch... this insures residual voltage is at zero. Wait 5 minutes and reinstall the ground lead. Now try to reset the player and remove discs..... this method has worked in other brand vehicles.


----------



## joeydog (Jul 28, 2013)

Try this first: while holding the power button down push the eject button.


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

Just got back from the dealer. I got there 20 minutes early and they took me right away. The rep was very nice and his name tag said that he was a "settlement specialist." We went out to my car, he wrote down the mileage, and we went back inside. He did not inspect a single other part of the car. I filled out the odometer statement form and a power of attorney form. He then got a copy of my license, did a couple things on his computer, gave me a confirmation number, and told me I'd be hearing from Chase for the EFT in the next day or two. Completely painless and easy. Took maybe 10 minutes tops.

I did ask him about people bringing their cars back with missing pieces, damage, etc., and he said that dents, scratches, or minor blemishes are of no concern. He said there would likely be issues if people bring the cars back missing bumpers, hoods, seats, etc. 

Nobody tried to sell me a new car or even asked if I bought something else. A salesman greeted me when I first entered and even after I told him I was there to turn the car in, he didn't try to sell me anything. They had a Tornado red Golf R in the showroom, but seeing a sticker over $40k, it was much easier to turn around and walk out.

:beer:


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

Golf went back yesterday. Appt at 3pm, took about 15 min. The dealership was practically deserted. Same as previously reported...he took our paperwork, went out and took a few pictures of the car and the odometer, came in, took the keys and gave us a receipt and that was it. Got the email at 8pm last night from Chase with notification of payment, just put in my bank info now so we'll see how long it takes to get the money.

There was a salesperson there who was nice enough to take the tags off the car, the return specialist said she was there if we had any questions about getting into a new car. I expected her to actually ask us, but she just walked over, handed me the tags, and walked away. Oooookie dokie, then we're out of here.

I did ask him about cars coming back incomplete. He said they recently got instruction that if someone shows up to a turn-in appt missing major components (headlights, windows, bumpers, doors), they are to cancel the appt and refer the owner to the VWoA phone number. I was pretty surprised to hear that as it's counter to what most others have reported, so that might get interesting. He said they're scheduling up to 10 appts per day and expecting it to pick up in the coming months.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

Skizzle1111 said:


> Just got back from the dealer. I got there 20 minutes early and they took me right away. The rep was very nice and his name tag said that he was a "settlement specialist." We went out to my car, he wrote down the mileage, and we went back inside. He did not inspect a single other part of the car. I filled out the odometer statement form and a power of attorney form. He then got a copy of my license, did a couple things on his computer, gave me a confirmation number, and told me I'd be hearing from Chase for the EFT in the next day or two. Completely painless and easy. Took maybe 10 minutes tops.
> 
> I did ask him about people bringing their cars back with missing pieces, damage, etc., and he said that dents, scratches, or minor blemishes are of no concern. He said there would likely be issues if people bring the cars back missing bumpers, hoods, seats, etc.
> 
> ...


Great info! Thanks for the details, just what I wanted to know really. 

Oh and you should get that T-Red R!!! lol


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

veedubBiker said:


> I did ask him about cars coming back incomplete. He said they recently got instruction that if someone shows up to a turn-in appt missing major components (headlights, windows, bumpers, doors), they are to cancel the appt and refer the owner to the VWoA phone number. I was pretty surprised to hear that as it's counter to what most others have reported, so that might get interesting. He said they're scheduling up to 10 appts per day and expecting it to pick up in the coming months.


You were surprised to hear that policies change when people stripped their cars, bragged about it prompting other people to do it and creating a problem with people bringing in stripped out cars?

That sounds like the exact opposite of surprise.


----------



## euro16v (Dec 12, 1999)

Turned in our car today, sad to see it go, but so glad this disaster is over with. We were in the middle of selling it and buying a GSW TDI when the scandal broke, so we've been stuck with a car too small for a growing family for 15 months now. Painless 10-15 minute process. Bought a set of steelie wheels for $50 a few weeks ago and kept my wheels with new tires on them (bought new tires and wheels with our $1000 gift cards) so wasn't about to just let those go for free. Now we can finally order our replacement car and get on with life.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Ours went fine today and the guy "Larry" sure didn't know how to start a KESSY TDI  and after explaining (push once, wait, push/hold again and then expressing your foot has to be on the brake, we were good) and I got $450 MORE from the offer letter coming our way! 
Waiting for the Chase email on Monday and $$ shortly there after. This group has been great help!


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Glad everyones turn in is going well. 

Has anyone turned in a lease yet? -or will I be the first on Monday? Im just curious how they will review the car and what they will do about my excess milage.


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

aj4066 said:


> Glad everyones turn in is going well.
> 
> Has anyone turned in a lease yet? -or will I be the first on Monday? Im just curious how they will review the car and what they will do about my excess milage.


I forgot to mention, mine was a lease termination. 



Skizzle1111 said:


> Just got back from the dealer. I got there 20 minutes early and they took me right away. The rep was very nice and his name tag said that he was a "settlement specialist." We went out to my car, he wrote down the mileage, and we went back inside. He did not inspect a single other part of the car. I filled out the odometer statement form and a power of attorney form. He then got a copy of my license, did a couple things on his computer, gave me a confirmation number, and told me I'd be hearing from Chase for the EFT in the next day or two. Completely painless and easy. Took maybe 10 minutes tops.
> 
> I did ask him about people bringing their cars back with missing pieces, damage, etc., and he said that dents, scratches, or minor blemishes are of no concern. He said there would likely be issues if people bring the cars back missing bumpers, hoods, seats, etc.
> 
> ...


However, I was still 12,000 miles under my total allowable miles, so I can't say how they'll handle excess miles. Either way, good luck!


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Skizzle1111 said:


> I forgot to mention, mine was a lease termination.
> 
> However, I was still 12,000 miles under my total allowable miles, so I can't say how they'll handle excess miles. Either way, good luck!


Nice and thank you. I wonder how they will work the excess mileage. -if they will send me a bill or what will happen.


----------



## silverxt (Feb 25, 2006)

Finally got around to signing and notarizing the offer letter, and uploaded it yesterday. Hopefully this will be over soon.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> Ours went fine today and the guy "Larry" sure didn't know how to start a KESSY TDI  and after explaining (push once, wait, push/hold again and then expressing your foot has to be on the brake, we were good)


Ive never had to do anything more than quickly press one time on mine to start it. 

Is there some weird sequence difference on the Jetta sedans that the mk7 GSWs didn't have?


----------



## euro16v (Dec 12, 1999)

chris86vw said:


> Ive never had to do anything more than quickly press one time on mine to start it.
> 
> Is there some weird sequence difference on the Jetta sedans that the mk7 GSWs didn't have?


Golf/GTI's have always had the "1 touch start" logic, where the Jetta's you have to hold the button till the car is fully started. Beyond that there is no difference, I could simply hold the start button down while the glow plugs were warming up and it would start the car once the glow plugs were ready.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

That's interesting, when the rep took the pictures of mine, he had me pull it out into the lot for the walkaround. He said they aren't insured to operate the vehicles so they have the owners move them until the buyback is formalized, then the dealership people shuttle them around.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

veedubBiker said:


> That's interesting, when the rep took the pictures of mine, he had me pull it out into the lot for the walkaround. He said they aren't insured to operate the vehicles so they have the owners move them until the buyback is formalized, then the dealership people shuttle them around.


:sly: If you legally drove it there and still had insurance that guy was insured to drive your car. I realize this isn't you making that statement just pointing it out.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

Rescheduled my buyback date for the third time this morning. Started with 12/16, and now on to 3/3/16. Car is registered through February and has new snows on it, might as well keep the GTi out of the salt for a season. I'm going to see how much salt/sand crud I can build up on the car for turn in.


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

My buyback is scheduled for Jan 5th and i'm contemplating removing all the Dynaudio speakers and sub. Hoping I could salvage the speakers and transplant them into my MK7 Golf wagon w/Fender. I would remove the bi-xenons too but that's too much of a pain in the ass.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

veedubBiker said:


> Golf went back yesterday. Appt at 3pm, took about 15 min. The dealership was practically deserted. Same as previously reported...he took our paperwork, went out and took a few pictures of the car and the odometer, came in, took the keys and gave us a receipt and that was it. Got the email at 8pm last night from Chase with notification of payment, just put in my bank info now so we'll see how long it takes to get the money.
> 
> There was a salesperson there who was nice enough to take the tags off the car, the return specialist said she was there if we had any questions about getting into a new car. I expected her to actually ask us, but she just walked over, handed me the tags, and walked away. Oooookie dokie, then we're out of here.
> 
> I did ask him about cars coming back incomplete. He said they recently got instruction that if someone shows up to a turn-in appt missing major components (headlights, windows, bumpers, doors), they are to cancel the appt and refer the owner to the VWoA phone number. I was pretty surprised to hear that as it's counter to what most others have reported, so that might get interesting. He said they're scheduling up to 10 appts per day and expecting it to pick up in the coming months.


Car turned in Friday, Chase email received Fri night and entered bank info Sat morning, money in the bank first thing on Monday. Profit!


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

And here I am, just getting the offer letter today. You guys are welcome :laugh:


----------



## Kzoo (Jun 23, 2011)

I've read a couple articles about people "stripping" their cars and still being able to turn them in because they are "operable".

*But has anyone actually done this?!*

I'm asking because I have a TDI Cup Car. After hitting a dog a few months ago, it has a new thunderbunny front facia on it. Which is difficult to get even when the car was ordered with it. The car has been parked since then, so the replaced front end is still pristine... I'd like to keep that! The car is a 2010 with near as makes no difference to 150k on it and VW seems to have no solid way of fixing it so it's likely going to the crusher. I just can't justify such a rare part being destroyed with the rest of the car.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Kzoo said:


> I've read a couple articles about people "stripping" their cars and still being able to turn them in because they are "operable".
> 
> *But has anyone actually done this?!*
> 
> I'm asking because I have a TDI Cup Car. After hitting a dog a few months ago, it has a new thunderbunny front facia on it. Which is difficult to get even when the car was ordered with it. The car has been parked since then, so the replaced front end is still pristine... I'd like to keep that! The car is a 2010 with near as makes no difference to 150k on it and VW seems to have no solid way of fixing it so it's likely going to the crusher. I just can't justify such a rare part being destroyed with the rest of the car.


go get yourself a cheap junkyard/craigslist front bumper to slap on there.
i bet you can find something for $100 or less.


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> go get yourself a cheap junkyard/craigslist front bumper to slap on there.
> i bet you can find something for $100 or less.


Why?


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

GTI 20v said:


> Why?


because he would prefer not to turn the car in with a brand new thunder bunny front end, and seemed to be concerned with turning the car in without a bumper.


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

.yuk. said:


> And here I am, just getting the offer letter today. You guys are welcome :laugh:


At least you got yours


----------



## Kzoo (Jun 23, 2011)

dunhamjr said:


> because he would prefer not to turn the car in with a brand new thunder bunny front end, and seemed to be concerned with turning the car in without a bumper.


I've no issues with bringing it back without the front bumper. 

I'm just not sure if they'll take it back that way. Which leads back to my question: Has anyone tried to bring back a "stripped" car? If so, where there any issues?


----------



## JackStraw79 (Aug 10, 2015)

Just stopping in...

Documents approved/ Check marks on 11/1 and not a peep since then

Anyone else waiting longer than me?


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

I turn mine in in an hour. -with a 1/4 tank of fuel left in it, its been idling for the past 45min. haha! I started this morning with a -9 air temp, -25 windchill temp, and at 5pm, it has warmed up to +8 and the sun is shining. This car should be toasty warm for me! 

Thanks again to everyone who has posted up info and thoughts about the buyback. I think the community has really supported one another and put realistic expectations in place. 

eace:


----------



## shuko (Jul 24, 2007)

chris86vw said:


> I had mine approved 6 days after resubmitting with my permanent registration in place of the temp one the state had issued me.
> 
> 
> Just got offer stuff approved on my 2015, need to submit it for the 2012. Looks like around 1/10 tentative turn in just need to double check with the GF on a ride home.


Thanks! It made me a little less frustrated to have hope of a quick re-acceptance.

Mine went green on Friday, also 6 days after I resubmitted, so seems like you don't go to the back of the line...

8/9/16 Option confirmation
10/7/16 Both documents submitted (blue eyeballs)
10/24/16 Both documents accepted (green check marks)
11/30/16 Proof of registration rejected, "we'll call you within 3 business days." Still no call from VW...
12/10/16 Replacement registration document sent via claims portal
12/16/16 Replacement accepted, back to green check marks.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Kzoo said:


> I've no issues with bringing it back without the front bumper.
> 
> I'm just not sure if they'll take it back that way. Which leads back to my question: Has anyone tried to bring back a "stripped" car? If so, where there any issues?


a few people at least, up till now, have returned with many missing parts.
a couple times in this thread we have posted a guy from reddit that pulled the bumper and headlights.

the problem is that VW is catching on, so you may or may not have an issue depending on your specific turn in scenario.
its completely possible that your turn in could either be a success or your appointment canceled by the rep.

if you want to be sure, just get a cheap replacement to throw on so that if the rep asks you can explain that you get in a minor accident and had to put the bumper... its easy to explain not painting it because of the pending buy back.
lot less easy to successfully explain that you took the bumper off because you wanted to.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Volkswagen agrees to spend up to $1.6 billion on Canada emissions settlement*



> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen AG has agreed to spend up to C$2.1 billion ($1.6 billion) to buy back or fix 105,000 polluting diesels and compensate owners in Canada, the company said today.
> 
> In June, Volkswagen agreed to a similar deal with U.S. owners, in which it would spend about $10 billion to buy back or fix 475,000 U.S. vehicles. In total, the company has now agreed to spend to date more than $18 billion to address diesel emissions issues in North America. The automaker still faces more costs to address larger vehicles and U.S. fines.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Bosch expected to settle U.S. VW diesel claims for $300 million, report says*



> WASHINGTON -- German auto supplier Robert Bosch GmbH is expected to settle a suit, filed by U.S. owners of polluting Volkswagen diesel vehicles, for more than $300 million, a source briefed on the matter told Reuters today.
> 
> Diesel car owners sued Bosch in 2015 claiming the company helped design secret "defeat device" software that allowed VW to evade emissions rules and alleged Bosch was a "knowing and active participant" in Volkswagen's decade-long scheme.
> 
> ...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Kzoo said:


> I've no issues with bringing it back without the front bumper.
> 
> I'm just not sure if they'll take it back that way. Which leads back to my question: Has anyone tried to bring back a "stripped" car? If so, where there any issues?


VW is paying you extra for it being a cup car and having that bumper.

If you put a normal jetta bumper on it are you going to tell them to give you the lower value based on it missing parts that they are specifically paying you for?


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> VW is paying you extra for it being a cup car and having that bumper.
> 
> If you put a normal jetta bumper on it are you going to tell them to give you the lower value based on it missing parts that they are specifically paying you for?


really?
did you maintain your car with only OEM parts? down to OEM make/model tires? if not are you going to let them give you a lower value to make up for that discrepancy?


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

Damn
http://jalopnik.com/this-vw-diesel-owner-is-about-to-turn-in-a-completely-s-1790289804


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

@McMike said:


> Damn
> http://jalopnik.com/this-vw-diesel-owner-is-about-to-turn-in-a-completely-s-1790289804



Even better if he used the extended road side assistance to get it brought in on flatbread.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

AJB said:


> Even better if he used the extended road side assistance to get it brought in on flatbread.


Maybe he didn't have enough dough to get a flatbread.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> really?
> did you maintain your car with only OEM parts? down to OEM make/model tires? if not are you going to let them give you a lower value to make up for that discrepancy?


For starters this is what the magnuson moss act is actually about, no one is required to maintain their car with oem parts, even then I did.

That doesn't affect value at all, there is price adjustment in used car prices for what type of parts were used to maintain it.

In his case VW is paying him for that bumper. This is not a matter of oem or not, and not a matter of someone upgrading to different parts and taking them off. His car came with a special bumper and the fact that it came with a special bumper means that its value is higher (unlike maintenance parts) specifically due to that bumper. 



So yes really his check is going to be higher than someone with an identical year jetta with the exact same miles because of that bumper. They clearly took that into consideration since they separated those cars out and valued them higher.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

@McMike said:


> Maybe he didn't have enough dough to get a flatbread.


It would be free to use the extended road side assistance..... provided by VW


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

@McMike said:


> Damn
> http://jalopnik.com/this-vw-diesel-owner-is-about-to-turn-in-a-completely-s-1790289804


I have no problem with this. Wish I had been able to myself, quite honestly.


----------



## rick8018 (Jan 3, 2001)

@McMike said:


> Maybe he didn't have enough dough to get a flatbread.


LMAO!:laugh::laugh: It is possible that auto correct got the best of AJB with the flatbed/flatbread miscue, but such an opportunity is not to be missed. Well played, @McMike. You have risen to the occasion. We kneed more of this. VW's issues are the yeast of our concerns.


----------



## silverxt (Feb 25, 2006)

silverxt said:


> Finally got around to signing and notarizing the offer letter, and uploaded it yesterday. Hopefully this will be over soon.


Well that was quick. Got the email to go ahead and setup the appointment. What sucks is that none of the dealers near me have any appointments for more than a month


----------



## fknlo (Jun 30, 2004)

@McMike said:


> Damn
> http://jalopnik.com/this-vw-diesel-owner-is-about-to-turn-in-a-completely-s-1790289804


Why leave the wheels? Get some steelies and some tires showing belts on the cheap. I definitely don't plan on doing that but mine still isn't going back with the factory wheels on it since I can use them on my GTI.


----------



## maydaymike (Dec 12, 2014)

Happy day! We turned in our Passat on Saturday afternoon. The email from Chase requesting banking info came yesterday (monday) evening. I went to the link and added my account number last night, and the money hit my checking account first thing this (tuesday) morning! 

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Volkl (Oct 2, 2003)

@McMike said:


> Damn
> http://jalopnik.com/this-vw-diesel-owner-is-about-to-turn-in-a-completely-s-1790289804


That seems like a lot of work for not a lot of return. Unless of course he's already working with a salvage yard.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> In his case VW is paying him for that bumper. This is not a matter of oem or not, and not a matter of someone upgrading to different parts and taking them off. His car came with a special bumper and the fact that it came with a special bumper means that its value is higher (unlike maintenance parts) specifically due to that bumper.
> 
> So yes really his check is going to be higher than someone with an identical year jetta with the exact same miles because of that bumper. They clearly took that into consideration since they separated those cars out and valued them higher.


I don't believe the value VW gives the owner changes regardless of condition or if the car has previously been in an accident and had all of the parts replaced with non OEM parts, including the wrong bumper. Cars come in with every body panel on it dented and I don't think the value changes.



Volkl said:


> That seems like a lot of work for not a lot of return. Unless of course he's already working with a salvage yard.


X2, spent many hours taking this car apart, then will either sell all of it a junk yard for a tiny amount (junkyards don't give you much as they may sit on the parts for years and still sell them for little) or try to sell each of the parts individually and spend a year doing it. 

Will a junkyard give you $500 for a complete non running car and then this person gets a fraction of this amount because it is a fraction of the complete car? 

If I was the dealer I would just say "we aren't taking it", let him go call the VW hotline and spend a day or two dealing with them, they tell him no, he can go deal with a lawyer, then rescheduling his appointment somewhere in the future (make him the last on the list, what is he going to do about it?), no point in making this easy for him. Like any other business transaction either party can make the process miserable for the other one if they try.


----------



## ferg55 (Nov 1, 2013)

Hi folks - long time listener, first time caller... or something like that.

For those that are tracking:

Uploaded documents - 10/28
Offer received - 12/17
Signed and notarized - 12/19
VW accepted - 12/20
Scheduled turn-in - 1/28/17 (first Saturday available)

Have a loan from Ally Bank. Car is in Indiana. 

I'm thinking about going the other way as the Jalopnik guy. I have some old CRT monitors that I would like to donate to VW. :laugh:


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

dmorrow said:


> If I was the dealer I would just say "we aren't taking it", let him go call the VW hotline and spend a day or two dealing with them, they tell him no, he can go deal with a lawyer, then rescheduling his appointment somewhere in the future (make him the last on the list, what is he going to do about it?), no point in making this easy for him. Like any other business transaction either party can make the process miserable for the other one if they try.


exactly. **** this dude right back. reminds me of the ******* who paid his parking ticket in pennies.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

There is no way they're going to take that Golf in with everything missing off of it. That's just stupid. I can understand swapping wheels out with steelies (which I'm doing myself), maybe taking out radio and small things, but taking off just about everything? I find that hard to believe. They will tell him to call VWofA and reschedule. He's going to have to put most of that back on if he wants to return that car.


----------



## Kzoo (Jun 23, 2011)

silverxt said:


> Well that was quick. Got the email to go ahead and setup the appointment. What sucks is that none of the dealers near me have any appointments for more than a month


Same for me! I uploaded the paperwork yesterday at 12:30 pm. Last night, almost 12 hours to the minute later I get the email to schedule a turn in date. Feb 10th was the soonest I could pick. Not ideal, but hey, there is a light at the end of this tunnel now!


----------



## chucchinchilla (Dec 25, 2004)

That Golf owner's time must not be worth very much. He's spent many hours stripping the car and is now risking many more hours of time in the event the buyback doesn't go through. Oh well, I'm glad he's publicly answering the "how far can you go?" question so everyone else doesn't have to.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

This got lost on the end of the previous pages and I don't think any Canadians saw it:



spockcat said:


> *Volkswagen agrees to spend up to $1.6 billion on Canada emissions settlement*


 



> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen AG has agreed to spend up to C$2.1 billion ($1.6 billion) to buy back or fix 105,000 polluting diesels and compensate owners in Canada, the company said today.
> 
> In June, Volkswagen agreed to a similar deal with U.S. owners, in which it would spend about $10 billion to buy back or fix 475,000 U.S. vehicles. In total, the company has now agreed to spend to date more than $18 billion to address diesel emissions issues in North America. The automaker still faces more costs to address larger vehicles and U.S. fines.
> 
> ...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> I don't believe the value VW gives the owner changes regardless of condition or if the car has previously been in an accident and had all of the parts replaced with non OEM parts, including the wrong bumper. Cars come in with every body panel on it dented and I don't think the value changes.


I believe you are missing the point that this has a special edition bumper. 

It is being valued higher because of that.

Condition is one thing. swapping out parts you are being specifically paid for because they are there is another.

If you take it off its a regular jetta, but he is taking the check for it being a special one due to largely the bumper.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Volkl said:


> That seems like a lot of work for not a lot of return. Unless of course he's already working with a salvage yard.


Same thought. I'm actually parting out a car myself right now that I needed for a manual swap. Other than I was surprised to find it had coilovers I can sell I will not waste a single second trying to sell off things like doors and other BS, going right to the junkyard. It is not worth your time unless that is your job. That golf stripped down offers some entertainment value for us but it was a waste of a day for him.


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> I believe you are missing the point that this has a special edition bumper.
> 
> It is being valued higher because of that.
> 
> ...


That's a nice theory, but it's not what is written in the settlement. There is NO requirement to turn in the car with all/any OEM equipment. The car is assigned a buyback value based on the *purchase* cost of the car. * It is being valued higher because it COST MORE, not because it is currently more valuable than any other car being turned in. * This is not a lease return.

The ONLY requirement, as set forth in the settlement documents, is that the car arrive at the dealership powered by its original diesel engine. The condition of the car otherwise is NOT considered.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

GTI 20v said:


> The ONLY requirement, as set forth in the settlement documents, is that the car arrive at the dealership powered by its original diesel engine. The condition of the car otherwise is NOT considered.


And exactly the reason people are stripping them before turn in.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

GTI 20v said:


> That's a nice theory, but it's not what is written in the settlement. There is NO requirement to turn in the car with all/any OEM equipment. The car is assigned a buyback value based on the *purchase* cost of the car. * It is being valued higher because it COST MORE, not because it is currently more valuable than any other car being turned in. * This is not a lease return.


Yeah, no...

the only cars being valued based on purchase price are the 2015s.

All others are being valued based on trade in value at the time that this scandal broke.


You know if you are going to go by what was written in the settlement.. actually go by what was written in the settlement. 



TDI cups had a higher value in sept of 2015 due to things like the special bumper.


I realize that things are written, I also realize that there are a lot of people in this thread with no morals, based on what is being written. 


ETA, you also realize that the condition requirement was likely not put in to protect YOU the owner from having to deal with an even longer and more tedious process that would result in wasted time and resources on both sides as people fought over what they thought (proven time and time again in this thread that people don't know this) the car was worth in sept of 2015. Someone already noted that their turn in person said that they are being asked to inspect the cars in more detail and report cars missing key items. People abused it and within only a week or two they picked up on it and are reevaluating.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> TDI cups had a higher value in sept of 2015 due to things like the special bumper.


And typically options don't bring the same resale (trade-in) value as they originally cost (MSRP).


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

spockcat said:


> This got lost on the end of the previous pages and I don't think any Canadians saw it:





> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen AG has agreed to spend up to C$2.1 billion ($1.6 billion) to buy back or fix 105,000 polluting diesels and compensate owners in Canada, the company said today.
> 
> In June, Volkswagen agreed to a similar deal with U.S. owners, in which it would spend about $10 billion to buy back or fix 475,000 U.S. vehicles. In total, the company has now agreed to spend to date more than $18 billion to address diesel emissions issues in North America. The automaker still faces more costs to address larger vehicles and U.S. fines.
> 
> ...


Repeating again because it keeps ending up at the very bottom of pages, and this is great news for Canadians.


----------



## nobbyv (May 18, 2001)

GTI 20v said:


> That's a nice theory, but it's not what is written in the settlement. There is NO requirement to turn in the car with all/any OEM equipment. The car is assigned a buyback value based on the *purchase* cost of the car. It is being valued higher because it COST MORE, not because it is currently more valuable than any other car being turned in. This is not a lease return.
> 
> The ONLY requirement, as set forth in the settlement documents, is that the car arrive at the dealership powered by its original diesel engine. *The condition of the car otherwise is NOT considered.*


Not quite true: the Settlement does make allowances for higher/lower than average mileage. But chris86vw is right that the buyback amounts are dictated by trade-in value (NOT purchase price). However, I don't see any other language in the agreement that states the car has to be "complete". It only says that the car has to be "running". I'll be interested to see how this plays out.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

With the $$ in the account today - we are officially done with this whole #Dieselgate issue. The process was pretty painless in reality just really unfortunate with a car we really enjoyed. 









It's replacement is behind our former TDI JSW.


----------



## Moncton.:R (Jun 20, 2012)

AZGolf said:


> Repeating again because it keeps ending up at the very bottom of pages, and this is great news for Canadians.


Any Canadian who's following this thread (myself included) already knows about it for sure . But thanks for providing the info anyway. Only problem with us right now is that we've been given a huge range of values (my '10 Sportwagen is worth between $5k - 18k), with no way of calculating the actual value of our vehicle yet.

It seems it has to do with whether our vehicles fall into a "high mileage" bracket. If that's the case then there's a weird formula for back-dating your mileage to Sept '15 by dividing your total km by the number of days the vehicle has been in service up to 20 days before turn in appointment. That gives you a km/day average for the life of the vehicle at turn-in, which is then multiplied by the number of days back to September 18, 2015. They deduct that from your total mileage and you land at some pro-rated mileage which they use to calculate your vehicle value in Sept. '15

Some are speculating that this mileage calculation is only applicable to extremely high-mileage vehicles. So much so that when searching the Canada Black Book value with their given mileage returns a value of zero. So I don't imagine many people will fall into that situation. 

I guess the one advantage we do get is that we can trade-in and get a tax advantage. They only use the current trade-in value, however you get topped up in cash to bring you back up to the full vehicle value as calculated if you were doing the buy-back.

You can imagine how many people this is going to confuse...


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

My colleague has a 2015 TDI wagon, so I always forward these types of articles to her. I just forwarded the one about the stripped Golf and we were talking about it quietly so not to disturb anyone. 

Her: "Is it even legal to drive without doors?
Me: "Sure, ever seen a Jeep?"
Her: "but they have those soft fabric doors"
Me: "True, but those come right off"
Her: "Really? That's legal?
Guy over the cube wall: "Yes you can. I have one" 

/JeepPeople


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

@McMike said:


> /JeepPeople


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

GTI 20v said:


> That's a nice theory, but it's not what is written in the settlement. There is NO requirement to turn in the car with all/any OEM equipment. The car is assigned a buyback value based on the *purchase* cost of the car. * It is being valued higher because it COST MORE, not because it is currently more valuable than any other car being turned in. * This is not a lease return.
> 
> The ONLY requirement, as set forth in the settlement documents, is that the car arrive at the dealership powered by its original diesel engine. The condition of the car otherwise is NOT considered.


X2. Then replacing the bumper with a standard bumper or the aluminum wheels with steel wheels is vastly different on the moral level of what the guy above did and if I was VW I would treat it that way. Could easily "lose the check" or "typed in the ETF incorrectly" and this could take a massive amount of time to get sorted out. "Sue all you want but it was a clerical mistake we are doing our best to rectify, call us next week for an update on how it is going".


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> Yeah, no...
> 
> the only cars being valued based on purchase price are the 2015s.
> 
> All others are being valued based on trade in value at the time that this scandal broke.


Again, the "value" in 2015 is based on purchase price minus a set depreciation based on mileage. The price is NOT based on the car's condition or what bumper it has. VW is not "paying you" for that bumper. At all. 




chris86vw said:


> Yeah, no...
> I also realize that there are a lot of people in this thread with no morals,


Criticizing VW owner morality in a thread about Dieselgate? Really? :facepalm:

But seriously, what "morals" are you talking about? Returning your car intact to an immoral manufacturer is somehow more "moral" than parting it out? How? I have a dent and a dead head unit on my car. Is it immoral that I don't fix both of them before turning them in? The buyback is a FINANCIAL transaction, not a moral one. If I were donating my car to a charity, then yes it would be immoral to strip all the parts before doing so. But I am turning it in to a company that profited off of me based on its own immorality. So how is it immoral to try to recoup as much money as I can?


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

AJB said:


> Even better if he used the extended road side assistance to get it brought in on flatbread.


EDIT: I meant FlatBED... Stupid auto-correct. Well played down below....


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

GTI 20v said:


> Again, the "value" in 2015 is based on purchase price minus a set depreciation based on mileage. The price is NOT based on the car's condition or what bumper it has. VW is not "paying you" for that bumper. At all.


No.

The value is VERY specifically listed as being based on NADA used car trade in value in I think it was clean condition? While NADA value charts do use some mileage depreciation in their base there are lots of factors, it is NOT just new price minus a set amount. 

2015s were an adjusted price from new, the docs say some will use this, it seems to be the 2015s because a trade in value on a new car is very hard to establish with no one trading them in.


From there that price is adjusted based on miles.







> Criticizing VW owner morality in a thread about Dieselgate? Really? :facepalm:


Yup, someone else being less than moral doesn't mean you get to be just because.

You really need that explained? :facepalm:


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> With the $$ in the account today - we are officially done with this whole #Dieselgate issue. The process was pretty painless in reality just really unfortunate with a car we really enjoyed.


i agree, although i do still have the buy back appt and $$ transfer to go.
our appt isnt till Feb 4th by our choice

and it is a shame the car has to go away. 
honestly if it was a manual, i would be more likely to try to keep it or at least to delay the buyback further. but being a DSG, the car was never something i 'loved'. all my TDI's prior were manual, and IMO its a much better car that way.


----------



## bhamss (Dec 1, 2016)

3.0 settlement was agreed to finally today....my other VW is now also going back 2012 Touareg. 2009-2012 buy back later MY fix if approved if not also bought back. Restitution will also be paid out. still waiting details but everything is agreed to as of today


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

NATORabbit said:


>


Oh, it looks good on you, though....


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

@McMike said:


> Damn
> http://jalopnik.com/this-vw-diesel-owner-is-about-to-turn-in-a-completely-s-1790289804


Snap.
http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-refuses-to-buy-back-the-stripped-out-car-rig-1790345158


> Tonight, the man who stripped down his diesel 2010 Volkswagen Golf prior to his court-ordered buyback appointment, got a call from VW telling him not to bother bringing it to the dealership (because his appointment had been postponed) . Even after removing the doors, rear hatch, airbags and almost everything else from the car, Mayer hoped to sell it back to VW under the terms of the buyback. Turns out VW isn’t down with his approach to simplifying and adding lightness.
> 
> ....the rep told him that the reason for the delay is that VW believes stripping the car “wasn’t in the spirit of the buyback.”


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

[email protected]


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

I'm kind of glad that somebody did it so that the rest of us know where VW stands on the matter. I can see the courts siding with VW 100% on that one, too. This isn't a matter of returning the car on snow steelies instead of the factory alloys, that was an intentionally stripped car.


----------



## Astronaut3000 (Sep 9, 2002)

bhamss said:


> 3.0 settlement was agreed to finally today....my other VW is now also going back 2012 Touareg. 2009-2012 buy back later MY fix if approved if not also bought back. Restitution will also be paid out. still waiting details but everything is agreed to as of today


Where did you hear that they're buying back the 09-12s?


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

GTI 20v said:


> Criticizing VW owner morality in a thread about Dieselgate? Really? :facepalm:
> 
> But seriously, what "morals" are you talking about? Returning your car intact to an immoral manufacturer is somehow more "moral" than parting it out? How? I have a dent and a dead head unit on my car. Is it immoral that I don't fix both of them before turning them in? The buyback is a FINANCIAL transaction, not a moral one. If I were donating my car to a charity, then yes it would be immoral to strip all the parts before doing so. But I am turning it in to a company that profited off of me based on its own immorality. So how is it immoral to try to recoup as much money as I can?


That whole "2 wrongs don't make a right" thing is alien to you, eh? If you're pointing to bad behavior to justify yours, you're doing it wrong and I'd bet you know that. Whether you care or not is a different thing. 

---



@McMike said:


> Snap.


Good. When you do something like strip a car before a multi-thousand dollar turn-in you deserve what Red has for you. Namely his foot.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Astronaut3000 said:


> Where did you hear that they're buying back the 09-12s?


*Volkswagen reaches $1 billion agreement to fix, buy back 3.0-liter U.S. diesels
Automaker agrees to pay $225M more into emissions fund, sell 3 more EVs in Calif.; Bosch reaches settlement*



> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen AG has agreed to a $1 billion settlement to fix or buy back another 80,000 polluting U.S. diesel vehicles as the German automaker on Tuesday took new steps to put its emissions cheating scandal behind it.
> 
> The settlement deal covered luxury VW, Audi and Porsche vehicles with 3.0-liter engines, meaning Volkswagen has now agreed to spend as much as $17.5 billion in the U.S. to resolve claims over polluting diesels from owners as well as federal and state regulators.
> 
> ...


----------



## Astronaut3000 (Sep 9, 2002)

"The buyback offer is for about 20,000 2009-2012 Volkswagen Touareg and Audi Q7 diesel models. If VW had been forced to buyback all of the vehicles it could have added billions of dollars to the company's costs"
Ah, so.

I'm assuming my lady is going to be able to keep her 2012. It sounded like bhamms was saying they were all being bought back, but it sounds more like 1 in 4, which is the same thing the earlier articles were saying.
I'm interested to see if it's a race for 20k owners trying to offload, or if VW is going to reach out to owners of the early ones.. or maybe all of em still in CA?


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

@McMike said:


> Snap.
> http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-refuses-to-buy-back-the-stripped-out-car-rig-1790345158


Good. Had he bought it new like that, well then he would have a leg to stand on.


----------



## PiSSAT4motion (Sep 28, 2006)

aj4066 said:


> [email protected]


QFT

The quest for internet fame bites another one in the a**


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

PiSSAT4motion said:


> QFT
> The quest for internet fame bites another one in the a**


Thats exactly what this was, a quest for 15min of internet fame. A true product of todays culture. I bet he even FB live'd the party. :laugh:

I hope his VW stripping party was worth the thousands he will miss out on for VW turn in.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

@McMike said:


> Snap.
> http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-refuses-to-buy-back-the-stripped-out-car-rig-1790345158





> Joe says the VW rep—whom he believes was heavily coached on what to tell him—*did not give a time frame for his new appointment, but simply emailed him an attorney’s number to whom he should direct questions*. He thinks the automaker is “just trying to bide some time,” and he expects them to get back to him once they have spoken with their lawyers, *a move he fears is meant to find some way or another to get out of having to pay him.*


" a move he fears is meant to find some way or another to get out having to pay him" - He is smart 

Seems like the plan I said VW should follow, make his life miserable. If I was the attorney I would just say VW isn't taking the car back and feel free to have your lawyer contact us. By the time this is over his attempt to make a small amount of money and his internet fame will look like a really bad idea.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

My VW turn in is now 100% complete! :beer:

Docs uploaded the day after the portal was opened up 
Docs approved 11/10 
Official offer came in and resubmitted with notary seal 11/21 
I received my notice to schedule the turn in 12/1, scheduled that day 
Turn in happened 12/19 at 6pm
Email from Chase came about 8:30pm 12/20
Money deposited/funds available 12/21 into my Chase account

The only thing I am a little uneasy about is the fact my car was on a lease and over miles. The turn in had absolutely nothing to do with a typical lease turn in. I didn't receive anything that indicated my car needed to be in a specific condition (maintenance up to date, tires, what is considered wear and tear, etc) nor did my car go through any inspection process at the dealership. I didn't sign anything other than an odometer statement for the settlement. 

That said, the turn in process was very simple and lasted about 10min. They took a picture of the dash with the car running (noting the tach and the miles) and took a pic of the vin on the door jamb. I signed a paper noting the odometer is what was on the paper and that was it. 

When I asked the VW rep about the process after my car gets turned in, they indicated a truck would be picking my car up (yesterday) and taking it to a holding lot in Chicago, where I wouldn't have access to it ever again. 

I don't think my battle with VW is over just yet.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

veedubBiker said:


> Car turned in Friday, Chase email received Fri night and entered bank info Sat morning, money in the bank first thing on Monday. Profit!


And, item acquired - replacement vehicle.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

Is there any more to VW's requirements than "the car must still have the OE drivetrain?" If there isn't, I can't believe they left this loophole open. 

Would it have been better to say, "Car must be complete and in working order," or "pass a pre-owned inspection" and then give people a pass for petty broken stuff and/or worn out items?


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

@McMike said:


> Is there any more to VW's requirements than "the car must still have the OE drivetrain?" If there isn't, I can't believe they left this loophole open.
> 
> Would it have been better to say, "Car must be complete and in working order," or "pass a pre-owned inspection" and then give people a pass for petty broken stuff and/or worn out items?


At this point, I'm not surprised by any oversight and/or stupidity that VW is capable of.


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

dmorrow said:


> " a move he fears is meant to find some way or another to get out having to pay him" - He is smart
> 
> Seems like the plan I said VW should follow, make his life miserable. If I was the attorney I would just say VW isn't taking the car back and feel free to have your lawyer contact us. By the time this is over his attempt to make a small amount of money and his internet fame will look like a really bad idea.


lol karma's a bitch


----------



## EPilot (Jul 27, 1999)

VW's statement on the Golf stripper Jalopnik story.


> Volkswagen’s priority is to make the 2.0L TDI settlement process as seamless and convenient as possible for our affected customers and we are working hard to ensure that this is the case. The program is governed by specific eligibility guidelines and other conditions which were agreed by all the parties and approved by the Court.
> 
> Subject to regulatory approval of modifications that will allow vehicles to meet agreed emissions standards, the settlement allows Volkswagen to modify some of the vehicles we buy back so they can be returned to commerce rather than scrapped. The great majority of Volkswagen owners take very good care of their vehicles and are returning them for buyback intact.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

@McMike said:


> Is there any more to VW's requirements than "the car must still have the OE drivetrain?" If there isn't, I can't believe they left this loophole open.
> 
> Would it have been better to say, "Car must be complete and in working order," or "pass a pre-owned inspection" and then give people a pass for petty broken stuff and/or worn out items?


It has to be operable under the power of its 2.0 liter TDI engine. Those words are in the agreement.

Legal arguments often surround the interpretation of a single word. A car may not be a "car" unless it has all of the parts necessary not only to make it "move" but also to be "roadworthy", for example. The word "operable" might have an implied "legally" in front of it and that means some basic level of roadworthiness.

I cannot fault VW in the slightest for objecting to this situation. Dents and scraped paint etc are one thing but the car can still be legally operable as a complete vehicle. Major missing components, not so much.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

GoFaster said:


> I cannot fault VW in the slightest for objecting to this situation. Dents and scraped paint etc are one thing but the car can still be legally operable as a complete vehicle. Major missing components, not so much.


Me neither. I just want to know if the dismantler was an idiot, or actually thought the description was that vague that he could get away with it. 

If I had a friend with a same MY/trim Golf or Jetta and wanted to swap out their more worn wheels/tires, or other similar parts like seats, trim, bumpers, etc I would do so. Stripping it was ridiculous..


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

@McMike said:


> Me neither. I just want to know if the dismantler was an idiot, or actually thought the description was that vague that he could get away with it.
> 
> If I had a friend with a same MY/trim Golf or Jetta and wanted to swap out their more worn wheels/tires, or other similar parts like seats, trim, bumpers, etc I would do so. Stripping it was ridiculous..


Jokes aside, completely ridiculous.

However, it still baffles me that they wouldn't put *something* in the language to mItigate things like this in the first place...


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

@McMike said:


> Is there any more to VW's requirements than "the car must still have the OE drivetrain?" If there isn't, I can't believe they left this loophole open.
> 
> Would it have been better to say, "Car must be complete and in working order," or "pass a pre-owned inspection" and then give people a pass for petty broken stuff and/or worn out items?


I agree but the complex wording and contracts happen to protect companies from the 1% shi*heads. If "subject to inspection" were on the wording most here would have been pissed they weren't just taking the cars back without stipulations. Then when you read "in complete working order" and go get things fixed to meet the requirements to later find out they really don't care it would also piss you off.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

So yesterday morning this guy is a hero and just doing exactly what the settlement says, screw vw they cheated they deserve it.

Yesterday evening he's a an idiot.

You guys realize this is a forum and not snapchat right? You can click on the numbers at the top and bottom of the page to go back and see what was said before...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> I agree but the complex wording and contracts happen to protect companies from the 1% shi*heads. If "subject to inspection" were on the wording most here would have been pissed they weren't just taking the cars back without stipulations. Then when you read "in complete working order" and go get things fixed to meet the requirements to later find out they really don't care it would also piss you off.


Yup, had there been stipulations for inspections then there would have been a chance that too great of number of people would have opted out of the settlement and it wouldn't have gone through. All parties wanted it to move quickly which leaves things like this having to be a little too vague.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

chris86vw said:


> So yesterday morning this guy is a hero and just doing exactly what the settlement says, screw vw they cheated they deserve it.
> 
> Yesterday evening he's a an idiot.
> 
> You guys realize this is a forum and not snapchat right? You can click on the numbers at the top and bottom of the page to go back and see what was said before...


Oh FFS, lighten up.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

NATORabbit said:


> Oh FFS, lighten up.


down .8lbs from yesterday. thanks for caring.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

chris86vw said:


> down .8lbs from yesterday. thanks for caring.


That's not very healthy if you keep that up.

Also not other people's problems if your sarcasm meter sucks.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

NATORabbit said:


> That's not very healthy if you keep that up.


Well aware, I track my food intake, exercise, weight, water intake, water %, body fat % likely more than just about any other member here.



someone said something about sarcasm 



> Also not other people's problems if your sarcasm meter sucks.


oh there it was...


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

chris86vw said:


> oh there it was...


Exactly. So practice what you preach.


----------



## JackStraw79 (Aug 10, 2015)

Offer letter received today 12/21
Docs were approved 11/1
Outstanding loan with private bank


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Scheduled my buyback day at a dealer far as **** from my house. The day? Friday the 13th. :laugh:


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> Well aware, I track my food intake, exercise, weight, water intake, water %, body fat % likely more than just about any other member here.



Can't say so for sure, but you might be insane. Do you happen to have an air cooled Beetle missing the passenger seat?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

NATORabbit said:


> Exactly. So practice what you preach.


That doesn't make sense in this context.

And there were people who commented before and after the VW response that were not being sarcastic.


----------



## Pizza Cat (Dec 2, 2006)

chris86vw said:


> That doesn't make sense in this context.
> 
> And there were people who commented before and after the VW response that were not being sarcastic.


You must be SO much fun at parties!


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

@McMike said:


> Would it have been better to say, "Car must be complete and in working order," or "pass a pre-owned inspection" and then give people a pass for petty broken stuff and/or worn out items?


IMO this is too open to 'interpretation' for the courts and the lawyers to have been ok with.

if the tires are worn past the wear bars would that allow VW to deny the buy back?
what if a tail light bulb was out?
or the windshield cracked in the drivers line of site?
or the OEM radio swapped out for aftermarket?

etc.
etc.
etc.

THAT would have been the mother of all loop holes, but in VW's favor.
not to mention the much larger costs on VW to inspect all of these cars instead of just making sure they start.

i may be wrong. but i think in the long run VW will end up taking this stripped car back because of what is in the class action/ how it was worded. i dont think its worth the bad PR to NOT take back cars missing parts. they really dont need anymore lawsuits headed their way.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

They may end up taking the car back but after a lengthy delay.

A reeeeeeaaaaalllly long delay.

That file goes to the bottom of the pile for processing. Oh look, the pile is getting thinner. Ooops, someone else just submitted one. That goes on top. *That* sort of really long delay.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

GoFaster said:


> They may end up taking the car back but after a lengthy delay.
> 
> A reeeeeeaaaaalllly long delay.
> 
> That file goes to the bottom of the pile for processing. Oh look, the pile is getting thinner. Ooops, someone else just submitted one. That goes on top. *That* sort of really long delay.


So?
If the guy is smart, then he already knows this and did this willingly knowing that it might have caused him a headache. So long as he has all/most of the parts to put back on the car, and is willing to try to stick one to VW... good for him.

I was all set to keep our TDI until the very end of the buy back window. VW thinking MAYBE they could just fix the car... then BAM take the car back and give me my $28k bisshes


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

Today marks one month since my documents being approved. Still waiting for offer letter :banghead::banghead::banghead:

PS. I'm glad that idiot got what he deserved, and I think it's funny that VW contacted his [email protected] before he had the opportunity to drive like that to the dealership.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)




----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

@McMike said:


>


Makes too much sense. I :heart: Steve Lehto.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

PlatinumGLS said:


> Makes too much sense. I :heart: Steve Lehto.


:thumbup: 6 Minutes is about where he hits the nail on the head. This is why the only thing I did was return with steelies instead of the OEM alloys. It still meets the terms of clean trade and all functions of the car are intact and are operable.

Edit: Now I want to see a Jalopnik story of this idiot trying to put his car back together.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

Sump said:


> :thumbup: 6 Minutes is about where he hits the nail on the head. This is why the only thing I did was return with steelies instead of the OEM alloys. It still meets the terms of clean trade and all functions of the car are intact and are operable.
> 
> Edit: Now I want to see a Jalopnik story of this idiot trying to put his car back together.


I would like to see the VW inspection process of this guys car be extra stringent. Instead of looking the other way for assorted missing and/or non-functioning features, I would like to see this car go through the type of inspection that a certified pre-owned car goes through.

That would make him be sure to re connect every fastener, every connector, airbag, light, and seat belt, and ensure they they are all operational. Send him home with a partial punch list, reschedule his appointment, and inspect it again.

Then after three failed inspections when he thinks he finally has it all working, point out the panel gaps, and start over. 

I would expect more from Jalopnik, they are filming video with the car right now.


----------



## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

Not sure if this has been asked already, but does anyone know how long it's taking vw to pay off the loan balance after the car is returned?


----------



## fknlo (Jun 30, 2004)

The guy that stripped his car is the guy that's going to end up getting me ****ed when I try to turn mine in. Mine has multiple dings/dents/scratches, a cracked windshield, broken foglights, is going back on steelies so I can use the OEM wheels as winters on my GTI, etc... I had zero intention of fixing anything but the windshield before the scandal broke and sure as **** wasn't gonna do it after the details of the settlement were revealed. If they start to crack down on vehicle condition because of idiots like him I'm gonna be pissed.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

fknlo said:


> The guy that stripped his car is the guy that's going to end up getting me ****ed when I try to turn mine in. Mine has multiple dings/dents/scratches, a cracked windshield, broken foglights, is going back on steelies so I can use the OEM wheels as winters on my GTI, etc... I had zero intention of fixing anything but the windshield before the scandal broke and sure as **** wasn't gonna do it after the details of the settlement were revealed. If they start to crack down on vehicle condition because of idiots like him I'm gonna be pissed.


Don't worry, they won't. Those are all recondition ready items, which is what they expect and outlined in the document. The specifics on the 'clean trade' are that that's what the value is based off of but not that the car is in that condition. It can be brought back to that condition. A stripped car cannot.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

@McMike said:


>



:laugh::laugh: VW - "Clean Trade Value" - Guy with stripped car - "What?"

I hope VW just says "no we aren't taking the car back" and doesn't explain why and lets him or his lawyer figure it out. 

Based on my experiences in taking things apart it is a lot more difficult to put them back together. Hope he kept all of the fasteners. 

Would love to be there when he comes to the full realization that this was a huge mistake.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

dmorrow said:


> :laugh::laugh: VW - "Clean Trade Value" - Guy with stripped car - "What?"
> 
> I hope VW just says "no we aren't taking the car back" and doesn't explain why and lets him or his lawyer figure it out.
> 
> ...



I watched at the 6:00 mark when he is going over the NADA Clean Trade Value definition. (I didn't watch the whole video) But he says the settlement says that is the basis for the value to be received. But does the settlement ever say that the vehicle must meet the Clean Trade definition? If not, then the Clean Trade term is only binding on VW to be used as the target value of each car, not the condition of the car itself. 

Were there other arguments in his video?


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Sump said:


> :thumbup: 6 Minutes is about where he hits the nail on the head. This is why the only thing I did was return with steelies instead of the OEM alloys. It still meets the terms of clean trade and all functions of the car are intact and are operable.
> 
> Edit: Now I want to see a Jalopnik story of this idiot trying to put his car back together.


except that i would argue that the NADA CTV is not a definition of what VW is using to define eligible... they are using that to define how the valuation was made. two different things.

if you want to use the above logic in that a stripped car doesnt not qualify for clean trade value... then anyone with a cracked windshield, body damage, oil leaks, and/or bald tires ALSO no longer qualify for the buy back value.

.
.
.

THIS is the definition of ELIGIBLE vehicle, from the court docs...

Case 3:15-md-02672-CRB Document 1685 Filed 07/26/16 Page 9 of 52
1312780.1 - 10 -
CONSUMER CLASS ACTION SETTLEMENT
AGREEMENT AND RELEASE (AMENDED)
MDL 2672 CRB (JSC)

2.33. “Eligible Vehicle” means Model Year 2009 through 2015 Volkswagen and Audi light-duty vehicles equipped with 2.0-liter TDI engines that (1) are covered, or purported to be covered, by the EPA Test Groups in the table immediately below this paragraph; (2) are, at any point during the period September 18, 2015 to June 28, 2016, registered with a state Department of Motor Vehicles or equivalent agency or owned by a Non-Volkswagen Dealer in the United States or its territories that (a) holds title to the vehicle or (b) holds the vehicle by bill of sale; (3) for an Eligible Owner, are currently Operable or cease to be Operable only after the Opt-Out
Deadline; and (4) have not been modified pursuant to an Approved Emissions Modification.

Eligible Vehicle also excludes any Volkswagen or Audi vehicle that was never sold in the United States or its territories.

Model Year EPA Test Group Make and Model(s)
2009 9VWXV02.035N VW Jetta, VW Jetta SportWagen
2009 9VWXV02.0U5N VW Jetta, VW Jetta SportWagen
2010 AVWXV02.0U5N VW Golf, VW Jetta, VW Jetta SportWagen, Audi A3
2011 BVWXV02.0U5N VW Golf, VW Jetta, VW Jetta SportWagen, Audi A3
2012 CVWXV02.0U5N VW Golf, VW Jetta, VW Jetta SportWagen, Audi A3
2012 CVWXV02.0U4S VW Passat
2013 DVWXV02.0U5N VW Beetle, VW Beetle Convertible, VW Golf, VW
Jetta, VW Jetta SportWagen, Audi A3
2013 DVWXV02.0U4S VW Passat
2014 EVWXV02.0U5N VW Beetle, VW Beetle Convertible, VW Golf, VW
Jetta, VW Jetta SportWagen
2014 EVWXV02.0U4S VW Passat
2015 FVGAV02.0VAL VW Beetle, VW Beetle Convertible, VW Golf, VW
Golf SportWagen, VW Jetta, VW Passat, Audi A3

and this is the definition of OPERABLE.

2.50. “Operable” means a vehicle that can be driven under its own 2.0-liter TDI engine power. A vehicle is not Operable if it had a Branded Title of Assembled, Dismantled, Flood, Junk, Rebuilt, Reconstructed, or Salvaged on September 18, 2015, and was acquired by any person or entity from a junkyard or salvage yard after September 18, 2015

-----

IMO even stripped the car DOES meet these stipulations.
its eligible for the class... and operable based on their own definition.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> I watched at the 6:00 mark when he is going over the NADA Clean Trade Value definition. (I didn't watch the whole video) But he says the settlement says that is the basis for the value to be received. But does the settlement ever say that the vehicle must meet the Clean Trade definition? If not, then the Clean Trade term is only binding on VW to be used as the target value of each car, not the condition of the car itself.
> 
> Were there other arguments in his video?


Shortly after he discussed how a court would interpret this and that it was basically an agreement between the parties (VW and the settlement lawyers) that the cars would likely fit into this category of clean. 

He also goes on to say that in the case of lemon law cases that they resell the bought back cars, and that is part of why they even offer you a buyback option instead of just trying to fix it one last time. 

Basically the settlement came to be with both sides agreeing that cars would be coming back in a condition that the cars would be able to be resold and had they not then this would still be in the courts. 


It's almost like someone here has been saying this for months now..


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Sump said:


> It can be brought back to that condition. A stripped car cannot.


i disagree.
the car has been thoughtfully stripped of parts... not totaled.

replace the stripped parts and the car is NOW back to clean trade condition... similar to having to recondition tires, brakes, body panel damage.

YES its much more extensive. but not impossible to return to clean condition.

edit:
not = now


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

chris86vw said:


> Shortly after he discussed how a court would interpret this and that it was basically an agreement between the parties (VW and the settlement lawyers) that the cars would likely fit into this category of clean.
> 
> He also goes on to say that in the case of lemon law cases that they resell the bought back cars, and that is part of why they even offer you a buyback option instead of just trying to fix it one last time.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Picking specifics of the language does not an agreement make. If stripper TDI guy were to take this court previous lemon law rulings, which this buyback is very similar in procedure and restitution (as guy in video near the end explains) he would get shot down. As the guy also mentions in the video VW would of never agreed to the ruling if they were not able to recoup anything on the backend of the buybacks, whether it will end of being a fix/resell, scrap/reuse parts, etc. 



dunhamjr said:


> i disagree.
> the car has been thoughtfully stripped of parts... not totaled.
> 
> replace the stripped parts and the car is not back to clean trade condition... similar to having to recondition tires, brakes, body panel damage.
> ...


The condition of stripper TDI would most likely be deemed as one of the following categories by an insurance agency (Branded Title of Assembled, Dismantled, Flood, Junk, Rebuilt, Reconstructed, or Salvaged) Wear and tear reconditioning (dents, cracked windshield, etc) is totally different from a dismantled vehicle. 

This was also part of the compromise of the deal. And probably the reason some opted out of the class. There is one tier above clean trade in, it's clean retail. So VW was able to shave some of their losses by agreeing to that valuation of the vehicles. I am sure they would of liked to see rough or average trade in value whereas the plaintiffs wanted to see clean retail value. Trust me I kinda wanted to increase my recuperation value but my in-house counsel (my wife ) read the documents thoroughly and came to same conclusions as Youtube attorney dude.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

> Buyback. Eligible Owners who do not opt out of the Class can sell their car back to Volkswagen for the Vehicle Value, which is determined by (i) taking the September 2015 NADA Clean Trade value, or, where no value was published by NADA as of September 2015, a calculation based on each individual vehicle’s MSRP and (ii) making adjustments for options and mileage. If this Class Action Agreement is approved, Volkswagen will not buy back any vehicle under the Class Action Agreement, DOJ Consent Decree, or FTC Order without receiving a Release, as described in Section 9.


As he said, the value of your car is determined by the NADA Clean Trade value as of September 2015. 

The stripped car doesn't have a "NADA Clean Trade Value" as it doesn't meet the definition.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

I find the comments from VW on the "spirit of the law" to be particularly funny, as they were convicted of evading the spirit of the law even while abiding by the letter of it - conforming during the test cycle, but not during actual operation. 

Basically, if the spirit of the law was not something they felt necessary to comply with, why hold this asshat to it?

TBH, ours is getting some cheap takeoff steelies and I'm keeping the alloys for the incoming GTI to use as winters. I will put the OEM taillamps back in and sell my OEM LED ones to some interested MkVI owner.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

atomicalex said:


> Basically, if the spirit of the law was not something they felt necessary to comply with, why hold this asshat to it?


Because VW cheating on an emissions test is VW

"VW" saying that this is not the spirit of the agreement is a law firm speaking on behalf of VW.


not the same "VW".


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

chris86vw said:


> Because VW cheating on an emissions test is VW
> 
> "VW" saying that this is not the spirit of the agreement is a law firm speaking on behalf of VW.
> 
> ...


Oh, I know that. I just think it's ironic and silly and the guy should call them on it for ****s and giggles.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

dmorrow said:


> I hope VW just says "no we aren't taking the car back" and doesn't explain why and lets him or his lawyer figure it out.


VW only needs to meet an 85% threshold. They could blacklist this guy and still have no trouble hitting 85%.



atomicalex said:


> I find the comments from VW on the "spirit of the law" to be particularly funny, as they were convicted of evading the spirit of the law even while abiding by the letter of it - conforming during the test cycle, but not during actual operation.
> 
> Basically, if the spirit of the law was not something they felt necessary to comply with, why hold this asshat to it?


You answered your own question: VW had to pay dearly for what they did. It would only be fitting that the stripped car guy pay dearly for what he did, too.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

dmorrow said:


> As he said, the value of your car is determined by the NADA Clean Trade value as of September 2015.
> 
> The stripped car doesn't have a "NADA Clean Trade Value" as it doesn't meet the definition.


but again. this is how the valuation would be determined. NOT what the documents define as an eligible and operable vehicle.

many cars that will get bought back would not qualify for NADA CTV... many, and would say a good majority... would instead actually qualify as NADA Fair Trade Value condition.

so then....
should those cars be denied since they do not meet the arbitrarily chosen condition valuation done by NADA? 

or
should they be bought back in accordance with being "eligible" and "operable" according to the definitions of those terms in the approved class action process?

i know what the ACTUALLY answer is and has been shown to be. (hint... they will be bought back).

so while this guy IS THE EXTREME and i know that, we all know that. but he is also not actually breaking the definitions and terminology that was agreed upon and approved by both sides and the courts in this case.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Possible new record for document turn around.

Submitted notarized scans of offer at 2:57
Got email that I can schedule my drop off at 3:08 


Jan 30th for 2015
Feb 6th for 2012 (gets me under a miles bracket for a few extra bucks  )


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> VW only needs to meet an 85% threshold. They could blacklist this guy and still have no trouble hitting 85%.


in which case he will just sue them on his own. maybe even getting the support to start another class suit against them for not complying with the definitions from the 1st suit... etc.

IMO no matter what happens it doesnt show VW in a good light.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> NOT what the documents define as an eligible and operable vehicle.


But the only thing that matters is what the court says it means, doesn't entirely matter what the document says if it is intentionally left vague to deal with situations like this one and then the courts review it case by case.


----------



## chucchinchilla (Dec 25, 2004)

I think we as a car community should thank the Golf owner for sacrificing himself for our entertainment. Can't wait for the update on Jalop.:biggrinsanta:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> in which case he will just sue them on his own. maybe even getting the support to start another class suit against them for not complying with the definitions from the 1st suit... etc.
> 
> IMO no matter what happens it doesnt show VW in a good light.


See the video above where it says the cars are supposed to resemble a NADA Clean Trade, which is a specific term that has its own definition. It does not apply to stripped cars. Sorry, but having VW reject a car that has been stripped does not reflect poorly on VW at all. It shows that they know better than to be taken advantage of so brazenly as this.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> but again. this is how the valuation would be determined. NOT what the documents define as an eligible and operable vehicle.
> 
> many cars that will get bought back would not qualify for NADA CTV... many, and would say a good majority... would instead actually qualify as NADA Fair Trade Value condition.
> 
> ...


Many of the cars being returned don't meet the standards of the agreement but VW needs to get the cars back to meet the 85% so they let them slide. It makes sense for them to have standards higher than they really want applied. Like a lease where the dealer lets you get by with more dings than the paperwork allows. 

Then, maybe you are correct, so if you are this guy you go get a lawyer and take them to court so you will get the full value of your pile of junk parts? At what point will this turn out to be a good move? Then VW screws with this guy so hard (and eventually gives him his junk part) that no one else wants to go down the same road, VW still wins the overall battle.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> in which case he will just sue them on his own. maybe even getting the support to start another class suit against them for not complying with the definitions from the 1st suit... etc.
> 
> IMO no matter what happens it doesnt show VW in a good light.


Class action once he gets all of the other people together that have stripped their cars and been denied their money? 

I think it is a really small number of people that understand the money VW is giving him for the car, then look at what he did to the car and will see VW as the bad guy. I haven't seen a lot of sympathy here for the guy.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

This was one of my favorite things from the whole process so far. With everyone screaming that they (VW) are going to do anything they can to delay paying you, to screw you, etc etc.. The last line on the last page of everything online you do for the buy back says this:




> In the event that your mileage is in excess of the expected range on that day, the appointment could be rescheduled.


Basically hey if you wait a few weeks until the next month your mileage adjustment may go up and you'll get more money from us. :beer:


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

oldschool eighty8 said:


> Not sure if this has been asked already, but does anyone know how long it's taking vw to pay off the loan balance after the car is returned?


I was wondering the same thing, and I spoke to VWCredit, VWOA, the dealer I turned my car into, and the Claims number and the only answer I could get, other than for each to tell me to call one of the others, was up to 2-3 weeks. This could be an issue for me due to when my most recent due date for a payment was.


----------



## Crispyfritter (Nov 21, 2001)

If it matters, and people are keeping track, my MIL turned hers back in to VW and bought a 2014 Dodge Journey Limited awd. She dearly loved her diesel Jetta, but lost a lot of trust with VW and have decided to go back to Dodge.

Chris


----------



## oldschool eighty8 (Apr 17, 2009)

Skizzle1111 said:


> I was wondering the same thing, and I spoke to VWCredit, VWOA, the dealer I turned my car into, and the Claims number and the only answer I could get, other than for each to tell me to call one of the others, was up to 2-3 weeks. This could be an issue for me due to when my most recent due date for a payment was.


That's the reason I'm wondering. I turn my car in next week and my next payment is due two weeks later.


----------



## madrussian (Mar 29, 2003)

dmorrow said:


> Class action once he gets all of the other people together that have stripped their cars and been denied their money?
> 
> I think it is a really small number of people that understand the money VW is giving him for the car, then look at what he did to the car and will see VW as the bad guy. I haven't seen a lot of sympathy here for the guy.


There's about 18 flat brimmed buddies of his who are trolls in support of him.

The rest of society is pragmatic and won't see VW in a negative light.

There's an old saying that goes along the lines of nothing everything that is permissible is beneficial and vice versa.

So in the end he made a public asshat out of himself and best case scenario spends thousands to get the same result he could've gotten by just turning in a complete car? Hope that part out helps fund his legal fees...



Crispyfritter said:


> If it matters, and people are keeping track, my MIL turned hers back in to VW and bought a 2014 Dodge Journey Limited awd. She dearly loved her diesel Jetta, but lost a lot of trust with VW and have decided to go back to Dodge.
> 
> Chris


I give it 12 months before she loses trust in that Mopar product...


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

oldschool eighty8 said:


> That's the reason I'm wondering. I turn my car in next week and my next payment is due two weeks later.


I do know they have a 10 day grace period after the due date and they don't do any credit reporting until it goes 30 days late. Worse comes to worse, you can call them and make the payment, then they'll reimburse you for the portion after you turned the car in and before they got the loan/lease paid off. That's what I may end up having to do if they don't close mine out by the 6th of January.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

Regarding stripper Golf dude...the lawyers went to pretty great lengths to not really take a firm position around "we won't buy this car back" or "you can't do that". They just said they basically need to postpone the appointment. It's actually a great opportunity for the VW lawyers to make a point without explicitly making a point in writing. I'm sure there are a bunch of people waiting with bated breath on this guy's story, thinking "omagherd if this guy does it i'm totally doing that too and imma make a bazillion dollars selling off all mah parts!!!!11". So VW says, meh...not right now, thanks. And anyone else thinking along those lines gets kind of a shot over the bow and starts weighing the risk vs. reward and likely says, ok screw it maybe I don't want to fight that battle just gimme mah moneys!! Then eventually VW lawyers will reschedule stripper Golf dude's appt and take it back some time in late 2018.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

veedubBiker said:


> Regarding stripper Golf dude...the lawyers went to pretty great lengths to not really take a firm position around "we won't buy this car back" or "you can't do that". They just said they basically need to postpone the appointment. It's actually a great opportunity for the VW lawyers to make a point without explicitly making a point in writing. I'm sure there are a bunch of people waiting with bated breath on this guy's story, thinking "omagherd if this guy does it i'm totally doing that too and imma make a bazillion dollars selling off all mah parts!!!!11". So VW says, meh...not right now, thanks. And anyone else thinking along those lines gets kind of a shot over the bow and starts weighing the risk vs. reward and likely says, ok screw it maybe I don't want to fight that battle just gimme mah moneys!! Then eventually VW lawyers will reschedule stripper Golf dude's appt and take it back some time in late 2018.


Good point, plus the fact that they could write an addendum spelling out that they won't do that in the future. I can't imagine a judge would deny that after seeing just one image of stripper Golf and reading the guy's intentions.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> See the video above where it says the cars are supposed to resemble a NADA Clean Trade, which is a specific term that has its own definition. It does not apply to stripped cars. Sorry, but having VW reject a car that has been stripped does not reflect poorly on VW at all. It shows that they know better than to be taken advantage of so brazenly as this.


that video is a lawyer interpreting the 'spirit' of the agreement.

show me in the court ruling or in the case exhibit docs where they say anything about a car being required to resemble the NADA CTV definition... 
i have read pretty much everything published. i didnt see anything of that nature.

only the things pointed out prior.
which vehicles are eligible, mostly for the title status concerns.
and what 'operable' means for this action.... which mentions truly nothing about condition beyond that of the TDI drivetrain being able to move the vehicle under its own power.

nothing i saw talks about condition or inclusion of any parts beyond that the vehicle remain operable.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

dmorrow said:


> Class action once he gets all of the other people together that have stripped their cars and been denied their money?
> 
> I think it is a really small number of people that understand the money VW is giving him for the car, then look at what he did to the car and will see VW as the bad guy. I haven't seen a lot of sympathy here for the guy.


would it have to ONLY be people that stripped their cars? no.

it could be people that dont feel the 'damages' paid to the consumer on the settlement were fair.
it could be people that didnt feel like the valuation methods were fair.
it could be people that didnt feel like the mileage calculation/considerations were fair... this actually affected a number of fleet providers badly.
it could be people that feel VW is not following the approved action by not doing a buy back on cars that are missing parts.


----------



## Hajduk (Jan 24, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> nothing i saw talks about condition or inclusion of any parts beyond that the vehicle remain operable.


Operable could mean many things. Usually a motor vehicle is considered inoperable if it can not be driven on public roads or licensed for public road use. If you can drive your stripped VW to the dealership legally, then you can't expect VW to take it back.


----------



## clintg60-16v (Dec 13, 2002)

veedubBiker said:


> Regarding stripper Golf dude...the lawyers went to pretty great lengths to not really take a firm position around "we won't buy this car back" or "you can't do that". They just said they basically need to postpone the appointment. It's actually a great opportunity for the VW lawyers to make a point without explicitly making a point in writing. I'm sure there are a bunch of people waiting with bated breath on this guy's story, thinking "omagherd if this guy does it i'm totally doing that too and imma make a bazillion dollars selling off all mah parts!!!!11". So VW says, meh...not right now, thanks. And anyone else thinking along those lines gets kind of a shot over the bow and starts weighing the risk vs. reward and likely says, ok screw it maybe I don't want to fight that battle just gimme mah moneys!! Then eventually VW lawyers will reschedule stripper Golf dude's appt and take it back some time in late 2018.


"Game. Set. Match."


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

madrussian said:


> I give it 12 months before she loses trust in that Mopar product...


Why?
We have had our Journey for 4 years with no problems. 
It has actually been more reliable than any German vehicle I have owned. :laugh:


----------



## nobbyv (May 18, 2001)

dunhamjr said:


> except that i would argue that the NADA CTV is not a definition of what VW is using to define eligible... they are using that to define how the valuation was made. two different things.


I'd agree. Not saying I agree with what the guy did, just surprised (as many people mentioned) that VW appears to have agreed to a settlement with terms that are VERY open to interpretation.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

nobbyv said:


> I'd agree. Not saying I agree with what the guy did, just surprised (as many people mentioned) that VW appears to have agreed to a settlement with terms that are VERY open to interpretation.


yeah i am sure that VW did that on purpose so that they would have that grey area to be able to NOT buy back cars that they really didnt want to take, while still being able to easily get to their 85% goal.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> would it have to ONLY be people that stripped their cars? no.
> 
> it could be people that dont feel the 'damages' paid to the consumer on the settlement were fair.
> it could be people that didnt feel like the valuation methods were fair.
> ...


Yes, anyone is welcome to opt out of the agreement and then go after VW individually or as a separate group, that has been in place from the beginning and is the case with all class action lawsuits. Virtually no one will do it, including this guy because you end up starting over from scratch with no agreement and then trying to get something better than has already been offered. Then when you as the group decide you try for a better agreement outside of the class action your group has decide what you want. 

The "it could" is great for a discussion but isn't going to happen with this guy and another class action suit.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

nobbyv said:


> I'd agree. Not saying I agree with what the guy did, just surprised (as many people mentioned) that VW appears to have agreed to a settlement with terms that are VERY open to interpretation.


Good enough that if VW wants to make it difficult for him it won't be a problem or require much effort on their part. Just tell him they will get back to him at some point in the future and make a note to send him a vague e-mail a couple of months from now. I was recently dealing with IRS paperwork issues and what seemed simple to me just got cleared up and 9 months after I filed. They would ask for something, I gave it to them and they would reply 3 months later needing something else, then repeat.

Then his end goal is to get a pile of junk parts and I think the tiny portion of people that really considered doing what he did is reconsidering the possible process and what the "win" really will mean to them. Not like these junk parts will get you thousands of dollars. I have purchased used VW parts from a junk yard (hood, bumper, fender) and they are really cheap and the market to buy them is small if you don't want to ship (and you can't as there isn't enough money in them to do it).


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

Is there a specific time period on when the final offer documents have to be signed, notarized, and uploaded by?


----------



## Hobie (Aug 30, 2001)

Couple of things I took away from my buyback... 

I already bought a replacement, so this didn't make a difference to me, but.. The specialist and a salesman offered the VW owner loyalty discount. They said, "You're an owner today, but you won't be tomorrow, so it won't be available to you after today." That's pretty sh!thead, if you ask me.

Another thing.. my state offers a sales tax discount for selling/buying. Basically, you only pay sales tax on the difference between the sale of old car and price of new car. The specialist refused to sign a bill of sale or notice of sale saying that it doesn't apply to class action settlements and part of the restitution payment is meant to cover loss of sales tax. That kind of detail would have been good to know from the beginning. He said the restitution amount is broken down into all the different possible items that its supposed to cover, but I can't say I've ever seen such an explanation. I'm gonna try and submit for a sales tax refund anyhow. No harm in trying.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Hobie said:


> Another thing.. my state offers a sales tax discount for selling/buying. Basically, you only pay sales tax on the difference between the sale of old car and price of new car. *The specialist refused to sign a bill of sale or notice of sale saying that it doesn't apply to class action settlements and part of the restitution payment is meant to cover loss of sales tax. *That kind of detail would have been good to know from the beginning. He said the restitution amount is broken down into all the different possible items that its supposed to cover, but I can't say I've ever seen such an explanation. I'm gonna try and submit for a sales tax refund anyhow. No harm in trying.


Your own states MV website states neither of those would have been accepted for a sales tax credit on a trade in.

This also was not a trade in.

There is actually harm in committing tax fraud so it may be in your best interest to inquire with your local MV office before filing anything.

And it says in a few places, most recent I saw was FTC site FAQ, that the restitution was meant to cover things like costs like taxes and registration fees associated with replacing the vehicle.


----------



## Cousin Eddie (Dec 17, 2005)

This is why there are stupid laws and ridiculous signs.

People can't just play by the rules and try to manipulate everything or do dumb things on technicalities.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Official. From the judge. Don't strip cars prior to buyback.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...esel-scandal-settlement-substantial/95711452/


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

GoFaster said:


> Official. From the judge. Don't strip cars prior to buyback.
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...esel-scandal-settlement-substantial/95711452/


ok but does that mean without an OEM stereo i cannot get a buy back.

its still vague and now its in VW's favor... grreaaattt


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

GoFaster said:


> Official. From the judge. Don't strip cars prior to buyback.
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...esel-scandal-settlement-substantial/95711452/


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

dunhamjr said:


> ok but does that mean without an OEM stereo i cannot get a buy back.
> 
> its still vague and now its in VW's favor... grreaaattt


It's in good faith, so I'd bet more than a dollar you're fine. This is, as stated, to prevent "bad faith" stripping of cars. :beer:


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Air and water do mix said:


> It's in good faith, so I'd bet more than a dollar you're fine. This is, as stated, to prevent "bad faith" stripping of cars. :beer:


i assume so as well. but going from vague one way to vague the other... ain't great for the consumer.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

dunhamjr said:


> ok but does that mean without an OEM stereo i cannot get a buy back.
> 
> its still vague and now its in VW's favor... grreaaattt


Seems pretty reasonable and relatively clear:



> That "goes too far" and "they should not be engaging in deliberate parts stripping," Giuffra told the judge.
> 
> "I would echo that," Breyer responded. "Clearly the purpose of the agreement by Volkswagen was to accept these cars in the condition that they were in as they were being driven on the road, and not to strip the cars."
> 
> ...


VW can resell the car with a non-OEM radio. But they can't when you strip off the doors, seats, airbags, etc.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Situation was inflicted by people taking advantage of the system. In the article, the judge warns that further action will be taken if necessary.

It's pretty clear that if the judge is forced to make a further ruling on this, it is going to be even less favorable for consumers, so I think it is in everyone's interest not to push your luck on this.

By all means keep any aftermarket parts that you bought and paid for and installed yourself. IMO if your car came with a radio (and they all did!), it should go back with a radio - whether working or not (or even not installed in the dash) but it should be there. If you have or can get a dead OEM radio, do that.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

GoFaster said:


> Situation was inflicted by people taking advantage of the system. In the article, the judge warns that further action will be taken if necessary.
> 
> It's pretty clear that if the judge is forced to make a further ruling on this, it is going to be even less favorable for consumers, so I think it is in everyone's interest not to push your luck on this.
> 
> By all means keep any aftermarket parts that you bought and paid for and installed yourself. IMO if your car came with a radio (and they all did!), it should go back with a radio - whether working or not (or even not installed in the dash) but it should be there. If you have or can get a dead OEM radio, do that.


I would say the same thing about a TDI Cup car and its special front bumper. Under normal wear and tear, an owner might replace this special, hard to get, expensive part with a bumper from a regular model. I seriously doubt VW is going to make an issue over it. But if you returned the TDI Cup car without any bumper, then they might look at you like this: :sly: or :what:


----------



## EPilot (Jul 27, 1999)

GoFaster said:


> Official. From the judge. Don't strip cars prior to buyback.
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...esel-scandal-settlement-substantial/95711452/



From USA Today 



> *Judge warns VW owners not to strip diesel cars for buybacks*
> 
> A federal judge warned Volkswagen owners not to strip parts out of their diesel vehicles before attempting to sell them back to the automaker through the company's emissions settlement.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

> _which would have been worth anywhere from $14,897 to $15,557 for the typical 2010 VW Golf diesel_


Considering Ohio guys car is a 2010, I am assuming it's paid off at this point. Whammmmmy :biggrinsanta::snowcool:


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

I'm not advocating stripping the body panels off the car..but any good lawyer would have a field day wining a case given the wording in the original VW documents.


----------



## saron81 (Jun 22, 2006)

AJB said:


> I'm not advocating stripping the body panels off the car..but any good lawyer would have a field day wining a case given the wording in the original VW documents.


And yet none are stepping up to the plate on this nationally covered news story. Why do you think that is? opcorn:


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> i assume so as well. but going from vague one way to vague the other... ain't great for the consumer.


You mean it ain't great for the consumer that is getting a more than fair value for their car but then wants to strip parts off the car and squeeze an extra few dollars out of the settlement? For 99% of the VW consumers returning their cars this whole subject is irrelevant to them.

Neither the judge or VW want to create pages of rules and regulations on the return of these vehicles as it will only apply to the 1% trying to take advantage of the negotiated settlement but possibly make the process worse for the 99% who don't understand that VW doesn't care about most of what the document would have in it.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

saron81 said:


> And yet none are stepping up to the plate on this nationally covered news story. Why do you think that is? opcorn:


Because lawyers, for the most part, know that when a judge expresses displeasure regarding the actions of a litigant, if there is any ambiguity in a contract or point of law, he or she will most likely rule against that litigant.


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

tomski12 said:


> Because lawyers, for the most part, know that when a judge expresses displeasure regarding the actions of a litigant, if there is any ambiguity in a contract or point of law, he or she will most likely rule against that litigant.


I also wonder if they aren't jumping in on it because 1) They know the payout won't be that big, and 2) VW has a lot of lawyers.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

@McMike said:


> I also wonder if they aren't jumping in on it because 1) They know the payout won't be that big, and 2) VW has a lot of lawyers.


If it's on a contingency, there probably would be no payout. If on an hourly, the client would pay a lot and he'd most likely lose. Because, the judge has already expressed his displeasure for the stripping of the cars. There is also this nugget from the Order approving the settlement. 

​Class Members who have not properly opted out and any person purportedly acting on behalf of any Class Member(s) are ENJOINED from commencing, filing, initiating, instituting, pursuing, maintaining, enforcing or prosecuting, either directly or indirectly, any Released Claims in any judicial, administrative, regulatory, arbitral or other proceeding, in any jurisdiction or forum, against any of the Released Parties. Nothing herein shall prevent any Class Member, or any person actually or purportedly acting on behalf of any Class Member(s), from taking any actions to dismiss his, her or its Released Claims.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

@McMike said:


> I also wonder if they aren't jumping in on it because 1) They know the payout won't be that big, and 2) VW has a lot of lawyers.


3) Dubbers that do this are douches, and will get zero sympathy from the public or courts.


----------



## 03gli401k (Jul 8, 2006)

I'm happy with the judge's ruling. This guy is a clown for trying something like this, at least there giving a fair by back price and you try and screw them even more. Some people in this world :banghead::banghead:


----------



## Nicefeet (Dec 29, 2009)

03gli401k said:


> I'm happy with the judge's ruling. This guy is a clown for trying something like this, at least there giving a fair by back price and you try and screw them even more. Some people in this world :banghead::banghead:


The stupid thing is what would they have gotten for these parts? A few hundy at best? There was never a shortage of late model VW's with doors, fenders, bumpers etc at my local salvage yard and guess what they cube them with a number of those parts still installed. 

The Monster Mat DAX is already at all time lows the market is flooded with them.


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

Called VW credit to make sure they stop charging me interest after my turn in today. The lady tried telling me that i have a payment due 12/26 and if VW doesn't pay off the loan within the 10 day grace period before they assess a fee. I tried to tell them that is most definitely NOT going to happen as they took ownership of the vehicle today. They were under the impression that the check comes to me and I pay off VWcredit. My settlement amount is about $400 light; which is the difference of my last payment that wasn't included in their payoff quote. I was simply calling to make sure i get that difference; no definitive answer.


----------



## 03gli401k (Jul 8, 2006)

Nicefeet said:


> The stupid thing is what would they have gotten for these parts? A few hundy at best? There was never a shortage of late model VW's with doors, fenders, bumpers etc at my local salvage yard and guess what they cube them with a number of those parts still installed.
> 
> The Monster Mat DAX is already at all time lows the market is flooded with them.


Yep and probably will take a while to sell everything if he ever does. 

I think VW should make his VIN number and all other who did this to their cars as tampered/salvage and will no longer will be accepted by VWNA.

Unfortunately people have little shame


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Just picked up my replacement. TDI goes back January 13th  Now to add a tow hitch and the wheel arch moldings.


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

Mazda 3s said:


> Just picked up my replacement. TDI goes back January 13th  Now to add a tow hitch and the wheel arch moldings.


Looking at these and foresters to replace my wife's Equinox lease with the TDI buyback $. What made you choose the outback over Forester?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## jdiaz (Feb 16, 2009)

Our car went back tonight. The system assigned us a meeting time of 6:30pm.......we arrived closer to 5pm to beat inclement weather, and found that we weren't even on the guy's appointment list! Not just that, but he didn't work past 5pm! Luckily he processed our stuff, but had we arrived closer to our scheduled time, we probably would have been SOL and had to keep the car a few more weeks until the next available slot.

If you received an appointment time that is very late in the day, I would definitely confirm before making the trip into the dealership.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Mazda 3s said:


> Just picked up my replacement. TDI goes back January 13th  Now to add a tow hitch and the wheel arch moldings.


That looks great!


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

VeeDubMan54 said:


> Looking at these and foresters to replace my wife's Equinox lease with the TDI buyback $. What made you choose the outback over Forester?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


It's more "wagony" and has a longer and wider cargo area.


----------



## turbokirby (Sep 5, 2014)

Our turn in date is the 27th we are driving about 150 miles to drop off because no dealers in the area had appointments before the end of January.


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

Anyone trading in and getting a Miata ND?


----------



## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

Mazda 3s said:


> Just picked up my replacement. TDI goes back January 13th  Now to add a tow hitch and the wheel arch moldings.


Very nice


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

I went back to the site today to check on my appointment and it seemed to have cleared out my confirmed date. It went back to Step 18, where you input the mileage and select a date from the calendar. I had been in there previously to look at the required forms so I know it was confirmed at some point. No big deal for me as I am looking for an April turn-in. The first time I scheduled the latest date I could pick was 3/29. Now April has opened up. 

Those of you who are anxiously awaiting the turn in may want to double check that your date is still confirmed. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## J-Couch (Sep 6, 2013)

bdc12 said:


> I went back to the site today to check on my appointment and it seemed to have cleared out my confirmed date. It went back to Step 18, where you input the mileage and select a date from the calendar. I had been in there previously to look at the required forms so I know it was confirmed at some point. No big deal for me as I am looking for an April turn-in. The first time I scheduled the latest date I could pick was 3/29. Now April has opened up.
> 
> Those of you who are anxiously awaiting the turn in may want to double check that your date is still confirmed.
> 
> ...


I wonder if something happened in the system because I checked this morning to print out my paper work for my January 12th drop off and the page looked just like you said. 

I didn't schedule a new time, but I did go to the calendar and the 4 o'clock time slot was no longer available which is what I originally chose and my verification email reflects so I believe I'm still good. 

I'm still planning on going on the same day and time with my email in hand. My dad is going to stop by this week for me since I can't due to work and talk them for me though.


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

Mazda 3s said:


> Just picked up my replacement. TDI goes back January 13th  Now to add a tow hitch and the *wheel arch moldings*.


Not standard on an "Outback"?


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

someguy123 said:


> Not standard on an "Outback"?


Nope... another $300 on eBay


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

That moulding dramatically changes the cars appearance, for the better. Very nice!


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

Site down for maintenance for me. Can't do my redundant and unnecessary check 3 times a day :laugh:


----------



## huskies90 (Nov 16, 2012)

I received my offer on 12/22 got it notarized and uploaded immediately. I received acknowledgment and the scheduling calendar a few hours later. 

I have 2 questions: 

1) I was not able to get a date before 2/2/17. I have 20+ dealers in 50 mile radius. Is there any way to know if there is a cancelation/opening prior to 2/2/17 without having to cancel my 2/2/17 appointment and re-search. I do not want to lose 2/2/17 trying to get a better date.

2) Is there any way to calculate how many miles I can drive the car between now and my return date without changing the offer? I get the 12,500 per year (1,042 per month) but what is the starting point for the calculation and what do they do about prorated months?

I have already purchased another car so I want to return the TDI as soon as possible and I don't need to drive it but I will if it won't impact my offer.

Thanks!


----------



## shuko (Jul 24, 2007)

Saga nearing its end...

8/9/16 Option confirmation via online portal
9/14/16 Ability to upload documents (No email notification, I just log in to check up and see it.) Send Texas DPS request for title validation "for court use"
10/7/16 Both documents submitted (blue eyeballs)
10/24/16 Both documents accepted (green check marks)
11/30/16 Proof of registration rejected, "we'll call you within 3 business days." Never called...
12/10/16 Replacement registration document submitted via claims portal
12/16/16 Replacement accepted, back to green check marks.
12/23/16 Offer letter received
12/27/16 Signed and notarized offer letter uploaded










Almost there. Thanks everyone for sharing their experiences. I knew right away that I needed to upload every single page to VW - not just the signed ones - from reading here.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

Damn, you got your offer later within like 2 weeks. I'm still waiting for mine after a month. :banghead:


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

SixpackMk3 said:


> Damn, you got your offer later within like 2 weeks. I'm still waiting for mine after a month. :banghead:


*SEVEN WEEKS* and counting... 

My husband started the process a few weeks after me and we returned his car this past Friday night. I'm still waiting on my offer letter.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

Green Hare said:


> *SEVEN WEEKS* and counting...
> 
> My husband started the process a few weeks after me and we returned his car this past Friday night. I'm still waiting on my offer letter.


Wow that's crazy. I just called them and she said everything has been done, they're just waiting on the offer letter and that the computers were down for a couple days also. She said I should hear something withing the next couple of weeks. Got my fingers crossed. I'm not even really mad, we are just stacking up on the miles and the amount we get is going to go down some, but I guess can't really do anything about it cause I don't want to go buy another car and then be stuck with 3 payments.


----------



## shuko (Jul 24, 2007)

SixpackMk3 said:


> Damn, you got your offer later within like 2 weeks. I'm still waiting for mine after a month. :banghead:


It was almost a full month after the approved original registration and ID documents...

As an update, I submitted the signed offer letter at around 11:30 my time today, and it was approved for appointment scheduling by 1:15. :snowcool:

Turn in is on February 7th. I checked all area dealers and it seems that the 6th was the earliest available anywhere. Also, it looked like turn-in appointments were only available on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday... is this true for everyone?


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

Finally got my offer letter this morning and set up an appointment in February. I got what I really wanted for Christmas. I'm happy with the turn around for the offer letter too, I got it at 8 this morning, got it notarized and submitted by noon, and was able to schedule an appt. before 2.

Docs submitted - Sept 28
Docs approved - Nov 15
Offer Letter received - Dec 27 and appointment scheduled same day
Turn in appt - Feb 11


----------



## GlhTroy (Aug 6, 2013)

Green Hare said:


> *SEVEN WEEKS* and counting...
> 
> My husband started the process a few weeks after me and we returned his car this past Friday night. I'm still waiting on my offer letter.


We are in the same boat  it is getting ridiculous now. Wife and I purchased a new suv for her based off VW time line for completion. Then a week later they changed the 10 days to a month. I should have had my offer letter no later than Dec 16th according to vw. Still waiting. Fingers crossed you and I get ours this week.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## rick8018 (Jan 3, 2001)

Turned in both TDIs this morning. Now waiting for the Chase email. Another step closer to being done with this. Had the feels leaving both cars on the dealer lot. They were very good cars.


----------



## turbokirby (Sep 5, 2014)

Drove 150 miles to drop off TDI, had the exact same feeling dropping off a meticulously maintained 2014 with just the promise an email would be forthcoming for DD info. I will say that for as bad as the front end process has been, today was a piece of cake... Showed up early the dealership was eager and waiting for the pre printed paperwork which we filled out. We were in and out the door in under 15 minutes. As stated above looking for the chase email so this saga is dead and gone.

One other side note for those that have been letting your car sit, START them weekly I had freaking cardiac arrest when I couldn't get it to start this morning... Felt like I was about to take a 27k ass raping because I couldn't get the car to start! Fortunately after driving there absolutely no problems after drop off!


----------



## VeeDubMan54 (Oct 1, 2001)

turbokirby said:


> .
> 
> One other side note for those that have been letting your car sit, START them weekly I had freaking cardiac arrest when I couldn't get it to start this morning... Felt like I was about to take a 27k ass raping because I couldn't get the car to start! Fortunately after driving there absolutely no problems after drop off!


I had mine on a battery tender for about 3 months but about a mile away from the dealership last Friday my glow plug light started flashing, car went into limp mode and it scared the **** out of me. Coasted into dealer and shut it down. car fired right back up and moved it for the ambassador / buyback specialist as much as it needed to move. 

Buyback processed and cash is in my account as of yesterday. Just waiting for my 2 months of overpayment to VW Credit


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Did the buyback yesterday and it was quick and easy. So glad, because when I cleaned it out I noticed a decent amount of water in the trunk, and back seat floor  So glad to get rid of it. Hope the new Jetta SE replacement is water proof 
Buyback money was enough to buy a 2017 outright w/ some cash left over 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

huskies90 said:


> 2) Is there any way to calculate how many miles I can drive the car between now and my return date without changing the offer? I get the 12,500 per year (1,042 per month) but what is the starting point for the calculation and what do they do about prorated months?
> 
> I have already purchased another car so I want to return the TDI as soon as possible and I don't need to drive it but I will if it won't impact my offer.
> 
> Thanks!


yes, you need to find the mileage adjustment chart and then do the math. They only prorate to them month, not the day. So, you are much better of turning in on the first of the month, rather than the end of the proceeding month as you would get another 1,042 allowance.


----------



## URSledgehammer (Oct 3, 2008)

15 drive
12 minutes of paperwork
$$$$

Bye TDI


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

SixpackMk3 said:


> Wow that's crazy. I just called them and she said everything has been done, they're just waiting on the offer letter and that the computers were down for a couple days also. She said I should hear something withing the next couple of weeks. Got my fingers crossed. I'm not even really mad, we are just stacking up on the miles and the amount we get is going to go down some, but I guess can't really do anything about it cause I don't want to go buy another car and then be stuck with 3 payments.


I have called them more than a few times (I think it will be on the to-do list for today as well) and the most I've gotten out of them was confirmation that my docs were approved on 11/3, my offer was generated on 11/8 and sent to audit. That's as far as they can tell me. I was told last week that they were opening an IT ticket to have the offer letter sent/stage updated, 3 days no reply I called again and was told they were escalating for a supervisor call back (no call). 

I see people ranting about VW this and VW that about the claims process, but AFAIK this is all being handled by a third party, so my beef is with them, not VW. Honestly this is just ridiculous. Oh, and another coworker scheduled her buyback appointment, first available in our area was *February 7*. Awesome.


----------



## rick8018 (Jan 3, 2001)

It is finished. Turned in the cars 12/27 just before noon, got the chase email last night (12/28) at 8:15, money in my bank this morning. 

My wife and I have owned six VW cars since 2001, all purchased new. Now we have a 2015 Leaf and I'm looking at used Volts. My emotions are all over the place. Happy the TDI saga is done but (oddly it seems to me) missing a VW in the garage. I grew attached to them.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

rick8018 said:


> It is finished. Turned in the cars 12/27 just before noon, got the chase email last night (12/28) at 8:15, money in my bank this morning.
> 
> My wife and I have owned six VW cars since 2001, all purchased new. Now we have a 2015 Leaf and I'm looking at used Volts. My emotions are all over the place. Happy the TDI saga is done but (oddly it seems to me) missing a VW in the garage. I grew attached to them.


Seems as though most are getting the deposit email later in the evening. 

And regarding the mixed emotions, I am in the same boat, though this was my first VW. -It was also the first brand new car that both my wife and I bought together after 10 years of marriage. It was a great milestone for us, one that hauled the kid around and kept me safe in a fairly decent accident. We went on a few vacations with it and took great care of it. It was 100% dealer maintained, got hand washed a lot, received a lot of wax jobs, and the car took great care of us.

No, I didn't have to give it up. My tin foil hat tells me that those who don't turn cars back in will at some point receive some sort of tax or penalty from the fed's. I got rid of the car while the deal was available.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

aj4066 said:


> Seems as though most are getting the deposit email later in the evening.
> 
> And regarding the mixed emotions, I am in the same boat, though this was my first VW. -It was also the first brand new car that both my wife and I bought together after 10 years of marriage. It was a great milestone for us, one that hauled the kid around and kept me safe in a fairly decent accident. We went on a few vacations with it and took great care of it. It was 100% dealer maintained, got hand washed a lot, received a lot of wax jobs, and the car took great care of us.
> 
> No, I didn't have to give it up. My tin foil hat tells me that those who don't turn cars back in will at some point receive some sort of tax or penalty from the fed's. I got rid of the car while the deal was available.


 I would of thought about keeping ours if the pending 'fix' was more than the pipedream it currently seems. Also it looks like a vast majority are taking the buyback since it worked out to be a pretty good deal for most owners further limits VW effort to ever try to find an EPA/CARB compliant fix.

Edit: It was pretty sad turning ours in as it was the wagon we bought in anticipation of our first kid and the car she came home from the hospital in. Replaced my wife's civic coupe. Mint condition, clear bra and as some of the R guys know I'm about as anal of an owner as they come. Then she ended up sitting outside starting in October after we got the Alltrack and was in a pretty sad state when turned in. *Pours Colt 45*


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

Got everything uploaded yesterday
Denied last night

Apparently my driver's license expired over a year ago


----------



## @McMike (Oct 9, 2002)

cpermd said:


> Apparently my driver's license expired over a year ago


Pulls out license
Checks date.
07/2017
WHEW


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

cpermd said:


> Got everything uploaded yesterday
> Denied last night
> 
> Apparently my driver's license expired over a year ago


Okay, yeah... You need to fix that, but what does that have to do with getting your money back for a car?


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

Air and water do mix said:


> Okay, yeah... You need to fix that, but what does that have to do with getting your money back for a car?


Silly. 

With an expired license there's no proof the owner hasn't expired as well . . . ..

Or changed names . . . .

Or has been reincarnated as someone (or something) else . . .

Or is just a reason to say 'denied' because VW feels like it . . . .


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

Air and water do mix said:


> Okay, yeah... You need to fix that, but what does that have to do with getting your money back for a car?


An expired license is not a valid form of identification perhaps? That would be my guess. If you can't use that in a pub, why can you use it to prove identity to sell a car back to VW?


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

An acceptable form of Identification is one of the requirements. Don't go altering it either. :laugh:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

cpermd said:


> Got everything uploaded yesterday
> Denied last night
> 
> Apparently my driver's license expired over a year ago





.yuk. said:


> An acceptable form of Identification is one of the requirements. Don't go altering it either. :laugh:


Just call @McMike. He can make you scanned DL valid.


----------



## Turbio! (Feb 21, 2005)

cpermd said:


> Got everything uploaded yesterday
> Denied last night
> 
> Apparently my driver's license expired over a year ago


Seriously?


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Turbio! said:


> Seriously?


No valid ID, no thousands in free money from VW. Makes sense to me.


----------



## maydaymike (Dec 12, 2014)

We turned ours in on 12/17, and the loan (also through Chase), still has not been paid off.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

This is honestly my biggest fear. That they won't pay my loan off for 2 months


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

.yuk. said:


> This is honestly my biggest fear. That they won't pay my loan off for 2 months


Or your bank won't credit it to the correct account and leave your loan open.


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Sump said:


> I would of thought about keeping ours if the pending 'fix' was more than the pipedream it currently seems. Also it looks like a vast majority are taking the buyback since it worked out to be a pretty good deal for most owners further limits VW effort to ever try to find an EPA/CARB compliant fix.
> 
> Edit: It was pretty sad turning ours in as it was the wagon we bought in anticipation of our first kid and the car she came home from the hospital in. Replaced my wife's civic coupe. Mint condition, clear bra and as some of the R guys know I'm about as anal of an owner as they come. Then she ended up sitting outside starting in October after we got the Alltrack and was in a pretty sad state when turned in. *Pours Colt 45*


It sorta hit home when I asked what was happening to the cars once turned in. The dealer TDI ambassador, who is the perfect image of 'that used car salesman' said: 

Me: So, this car I am turning in. What happens to it once you take possession of it?
Him (and I quote): It will get pushed on to the trailer tomorrow morning where it will then go to a holding field in Chicago and it will rot until VW figures out what they are going to do with them. 



I had a slight thought of still buying a GTI even though I already bought a replacement vehicle. But once he said that, all thoughts of another VW branded item went out the window.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

aj4066 said:


> I had a slight thought of still buying a GTI even though I already bought a replacement vehicle. But once he said that, all thoughts of another VW branded item went out the window.




How does that affect what you're going to buy?


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

*checks email every 5 minutes for correspondence from chase*


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

Air and water do mix said:


> How does that affect what you're going to buy?


The dude was a complete ******* about it.


----------



## benjaminobscene (Aug 24, 2008)

benjaminobscene said:


> *checks email every 5 minutes for correspondence from chase*


email confirmed. awaiting transfer of funds. feels like a movie but I've already released the hostage...


----------



## huskies90 (Nov 16, 2012)

VT1.8T said:


> yes, you need to find the mileage adjustment chart and then do the math. They only prorate to them month, not the day. So, you are much better of turning in on the first of the month, rather than the end of the proceeding month as you would get another 1,042 allowance.


Thanks. I am at 84,650 miles today. I have asked this question to several folks and received different answers from everyone. When I called VW Claims one person said there would be no adjustment for mileage as long as I stay under 12,500 from what it is today - so 97,150 miles. Another said if I come to turn it in with it over the 85,000 which was in my original range of 80,000-85,000, I would have to leave and re-schedule my appointment. I don't think either makes sense. I called a VW dealer and he said it goes in $200/ 5000 mile increments so if I go over 85,000 my offer will be reduced by $200 up to 90,000 miles etc. I am not sure anyone really knows how this works.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

aj4066 said:


> The dude was a complete ******* about it.


Won't buy brand 'X' because of one salesman. got it.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

huskies90 said:


> Thanks. I am at 84,650 miles today. I have asked this question to several folks and received different answers from everyone. When I called VW Claims one person said there would be no adjustment for mileage as long as I stay under 12,500 from what it is today - so 97,150 miles. Another said if I come to turn it in with it over the 85,000 which was in my original range of 80,000-85,000, I would have to leave and re-schedule my appointment. I don't think either makes sense. I called a VW dealer and he said it goes in $200/ 5000 mile increments so if I go over 85,000 my offer will be reduced by $200 up to 90,000 miles etc. I am not sure anyone really knows how this works.


All the info is online.

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/?s=mileage+allowance



> I have driven my car since I’ve uploaded my documents and received my offer letter. Does my payment amount change?
> 
> It may. If you are an Eligible Owner, your vehicle mileage will be recorded at the time of your Buyback or Approved Emissions modification appointment. Under the terms of the Settlement, you are allotted 12,500 miles per year (prorated to 1,042 miles per month). If your mileage at the time of your closing appointment is below the range that you entered into the Online Claims Portal initially, then your payment amount may be higher than the amount in your offer letter. If your mileage at the time of your closing appointment is above the range that you entered into the Online Claims Portal initially, then your payment amount may be lower than the amount in your offer letter. If you are an Eligible Lessee and you have selected the Lease Termination option, you will not be charged an early termination fee, but you will still be responsible for other fees under the terms of your lease agreement, which could include excess mileage charges. Your offer letter contains the estimated mileage at the time of your…


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

.yuk. said:


> This is honestly my biggest fear. That they won't pay my loan off for 2 months


Mine too - what the **** are they doing and how hard is it to pay the bank - Bad enough my wife has made 2 payments since getting her final offer packet - 

I'm guessing VW will overpay the loan or will they just screw us again and pay the lesser amount to the bank and call it good?


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> It sorta hit home when I asked what was happening to the cars once turned in. The dealer TDI ambassador, who is the perfect image of 'that used car salesman' said:
> 
> Me: So, this car I am turning in. What happens to it once you take possession of it?
> Him (and I quote): It will get pushed on to the trailer tomorrow morning where it will then go to a holding field in Chicago and it will rot until VW figures out what they are going to do with them.
> ...


If he had told you that it was going to a special TDI farm to live happily ever after, would that have made you feel better?


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

If he also gave me a brown teddy bear, it might have swayed me. 

I mean heres the deal. VW lied, then tried to deny it, then drug the owners through the mud for a year over what they were going to do about it knowing damn well they weren't going to fix the car. They offered -0- incentive to future VW owners who opted to turn the car in and then have VW TDI ambassadors who are complete asssholes. 

Yes, this one salesman, the face of VW and the situation representing the dealership, turned me away from buying a new car. It really is as simple as that.


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

aj4066 said:


> If he also gave me a brown teddy bear, it might have swayed me.


:laugh::laugh:

I get it, I was just giving you a hard time :thumbup:


----------



## huskies90 (Nov 16, 2012)

spockcat said:


> All the info is online.
> 
> https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/?s=mileage+allowance
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing. It does help clear some things up. But still some inconsistencies: First, I did not enter a range in the online claims portal. I entered my actual mileage at the time. I was given a range when the original estimate was provided 2 months ago (80,000-85,000) which also included an estimated return date of 12/15/16. My offer letter did not contain the estimated mileage at the time of my...either. Second, it says nothing about needing to reschedule the appointment if you go to turn in the car and it is over the range even if you select EFT. My appointment is 2/2/17 which is a month and half later than my estimated date. Is the 1043 miles per month taken into account? I guess to be safe, I will just not drive the car more than 300 miles in the next 5 weeks and turn the car in with less than 85,000 miles on it. My gut says that if it is over 85K, they will just take some $$ out of my wire amount which would be fine. But the last thing I want to have happen is I get to dealership and they say I am over 85K miles and it messes up all the paperwork and I have to reschedule the appointment and the next available is in April.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

Your actual turn in date will include the additional months of mileage allowance. So you should be OK up to 87K or so. The tricky part is figuring out where the reimbursement increases based on date and mileage. I used some of the online calculators to play with various scenarios in an attempt to get a few more bucks out of the transaction. As mentioned, turning in at the beginning of a month is better than the end. 

I think it has been mentioned somewhere in this thread that a mileage discrepancy will only force you to reschedule if you selected a physical check and are over your allowance. If you chose ETF, they will just adjust your payment up or down accordingly.


----------



## phil123 (Aug 13, 2009)

Air and water do mix said:


> Won't buy brand 'X' because of one salesman. got it.


i would say a solid 90% of VW salesmen. for the most part, the stereotype is spot on. I know of a few people that are not like this, but they are far and few between.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> then drug the owners through the mud for a year over what they were going to do about it knowing damn well they weren't going to fix the car.


You forgot the judge, the FTC, the EPA, and the class action lawyers plus a few other parties in your rant, every one of those parties was involved in the delays, not just vw. And in reality this all happened stupidly fast. 

thanks for not buying another VW :wave:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

bdc12 said:


> I think it has been mentioned somewhere in this thread that a mileage discrepancy will only force you to reschedule if you selected a physical check and are over your allowance. If you chose ETF, they will just adjust your payment up or down accordingly.


I believe it said if you go into another mileage bracket you can still turn it in, you just can't get a check at the actual turn in. Or obviously chose to reschedule.


----------



## edge367 (Jan 3, 2003)

Here's my story.

2010 Jetta. Posted all the docs, got the letter, selected check option, and set up the appointment for Dec 29. All was looking perfect and no complaints at all.

Ambassador reached out to me and asked if I wanted to come in on the 28th instead of the 29th. I agreed. Process was absolutely painless and took about 10 minutes plus the time to remove the tags (most of the 10 minutes was me waiting while he took pictures of the car). I have a receipt email that says I was PAID.

But there was no check and there still is no check. At first, the ambassador said that the checks arrive the day of the appointment; however, no check arrived on the 29th. And there still is no check. Ambassador doesn't know where it is and has been working with the "higher ups" to figure it out but has no new news and I haven't been able to reach him or have him respond to me.

I called the Claims number twice to ask about the process. First time I called, I was told that it would come in 3-5 business days after I completed the process and that the funds have been removed from VW's account meaning that the check is somewhere between the bank and here. Second time I called, I was told that it was being mailed to my house and I should expect it today (it didn't come) but she had no tracking number or expectation of when it will actually arrive (I asked why it was being sent to me instead of the dealership and she didn't have an answer). Her response contradicts the ambassador's info that says he is getting the check and will let me know when it arrives.

Everything I have read and received from VW has said that I would be getting the check when I completed the process at the delaership and since there was no mileage adjustment, there is no adjustment to the total amount.

Has anyone else had this happen? I am very uncomfortable with this situation since I have no car, keys or title but I do have an email saying that my buyback is complete.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

I wouldn't worry. VW is not going to screw you. That's the last thing they need at this point.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

edge367 said:


> Here's my story................
> 
> Everything I have read and received from VW has said that I would be getting the check when I completed the process at the delaership and since there was no mileage adjustment, there is no adjustment to the total amount.
> 
> Has anyone else had this happen? I am very uncomfortable with this situation since I have no car, keys or title but I do have an email saying that my buyback is complete.


Check should have been there according to the docs. I guess the moral of the story is;

1) Don't change date if you requested a check.
2) Don't give up your car on your appointed date if the check isn't there.
3) Don't ask for a check, do EFT.

Good luck straightening that out. I;m sure it will eventually be straightened out but it was a crappy procedure on VW's part.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

I can't imagine why anyone would opt for a check versus EFT. It seems like that would be the faster and more reliable choice. Even if you did receive the check at time of drop off, your bank would likely hold it for a few days to clear.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

bdc12 said:


> I can't imagine why anyone would opt for a check versus EFT. It seems like that would be the faster and more reliable choice. Even if you did receive the check at time of drop off, your bank would likely hold it for a few days to clear.


Nothing wrong with a check, but to each their own. For us, we are not in a rush to have the funds available. Our credit union breaks the check of this size into availability over a few business days (some immediate, some after 2 days, the balance after 4). 

The sucky part is waiting two months for an offer letter...


----------



## aj4066 (Oct 27, 2014)

chris86vw said:


> You forgot the judge, the FTC, the EPA, and the class action lawyers plus a few other parties in your rant, every one of those parties was involved in the delays, not just vw. And in reality this all happened stupidly fast.
> 
> thanks for not buying another VW :wave:



You also forgot that VW attempted a fix via software a year before the public knew about this. VW played a huge role in this, not to mention knowing exactly what they were doing from day 1. 

Once the judge stepped in, things began happening quick.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

bdc12 said:


> I can't imagine why anyone would opt for a check versus EFT. It seems like that would be the faster and more reliable choice. Even if you did receive the check at time of drop off, your bank would likely hold it for a few days to clear.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Agreed.. makes zero sense


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

aj4066 said:


> You also forgot that VW attempted a fix via software a year before the public knew about this. VW played a huge role in this, not to mention knowing exactly what they were doing from day 1.
> 
> Once the judge stepped in, things began happening quick.


I didn't forget anything, I'm not saying that they were not a part of this, obviously they were.

I'm saying that all the complaints about things related to the buyback are NOT just on VW, so stop making ignorant statements.



Also once the judge stepped in it still took just as much time that has previously passed for anything to happen. The judge hasn't done a single thing to fix your car or for anyone else, the judge hasn't cleaned up the environment, buyback is not good in that regard. All he did was oversee a class action settlement.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Green Hare said:


> Nothing wrong with a check, but to each their own. For us, we are not in a rush to have the funds available. Our credit union breaks the check of this size into availability over a few business days (some immediate, some after 2 days, the balance after 4).
> 
> The sucky part is waiting two months for an offer letter...


At this point a check is just an EFT with a waste of paper and everyone's time (looking at you old lady at the grocery store).

So no there is nothing wrong with it. But in a case like this is it entirely pointless and likely going to just cause headaches for people like the guy above, yes. 


Also I can't deposit a check this big from my phone/home. Which means a 50-60 minute round trip to the bank.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> At this point a check is just an EFT with a waste of paper and everyone's time (looking at you old lady at the grocery store).
> 
> So no there is nothing wrong with it. But in a case like this is it entirely pointless and likely going to just cause headaches for people like the guy above, yes.
> 
> Also I can't deposit a check this big from my phone/home. Which means a 50-60 minute round trip to the bank.


I used a check about a month ago. It was a bank check for a vehicle. The seller would have accepted an EFT but then I would have paid him in advance before making sure what I was buying was as promised. 

I do agree that on the VW buyback, an EFT is the way to go. It isn't like VW is going to scam you. They have bigger scam plans than just one customer.


----------



## Phaetonchix_2 (Oct 22, 2005)

*My LaFontaine VW BuyBack Experience*

(Full disclosure, I'm a wagon girl. Always have been, always will be.) 

I purchased a 2014 JSW TDI on January 30, 2014 after my 2004 3.0L Subaru Outback with dual sunroofs and McIntosh sound system was t-boned by an uninsured F-150 driver. Ironically, I was working for Ford's AOR on the Ford Truck social media accounts at the time.

Within the first week of ownership of the 2014 JSW TDI I had electrical issues with the rear defroster; within the first year, mysterious electrical issues with the head unit the dealership was never able to identify. Let's just say I wasn't thrilled with dealer service, I had to go over the service manager's head to VWoA to sort out the defective rear defroster. Playing stupid woman with me earns you no points. Subsequent, routine dealer service done under warranty was rather half assed, MFI alerts not reset, one item on a checklist overlooked, etc. Sloppy work, and mildly annoying. I always wonder how non-car chicks are treated under these circumstances. 

The JSW always performed on the low side of the EPA estimate MPG range, at least until it hit the 40K mark. I bought the car because I was commuting about 70 miles round trip per day, not because I'm a tree hugger or anything like that. Also, because torques!

Got the buyback offer. Waited months for a turn in date on 12/30/16, took a $145 hit for being over in miles, lost money on window tint, wheel locks and barely used snows and steelies. To add insult to injury, the Buyback ate two batteries in the three weeks leading up to the big day. Spent $200 on a new battery 12 days before the JSW TDI went back to VWoA. Still don't know what electronic gremlin was the source of my problems, it's a VW so...Let's just say it took a hell of a lot of willpower not to yell "Don't do it! It's a TRAP!" to all the Sign & Drive event suckers in the store while I waited for the 3rd battery in as many weeks to be installed. 

Lazy bastards didn't even run it through the quickie car wash. 

The good part of the buyback process was the third party person that handled the paperwork, she was pleasant and helpful; the bad, truly ****ty part was the dealership staff. Had to beg, yes, beg to park the JSW TDI at the dealership the night before my appointment, an Uber home would have cost me over $100, I live in the boonies. When I called to get approval to leave the car, the GM "slut shamed' me for taking the offer. Sure, I'm going to keep a VW with electrical problems they can't figure out while it depreciates at the speed of sound. Because there's a fix for the 2.0L diesels? Right, and I have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn. 

I get it, this sucks for the stores, the sales staff took a real hit to the pocket, but so did the owners. No one is getting rich here. Overall, the attitude of the store staff since the buyback was announced has been terrible. They simply don't give a ****. And it shows in their faces, it is in the tone of their voice and in their turn-their-back-on-you actions. Ignoring the Buyback owners doesn't leave a positive final impression. No wonder the guy in front of me on Buyback Day went off on the staff at the VW store. They know they won't be seeing the majority of VW owners again, they don't care that their store is part of a HUGE dealer network. Next time I run into the Dealer Principle at an event, and I will, I'll be sharing my experience with him. I'll never buy a vehicle from any of his stores, this experience has soured me to his so-called "Family Deals" 

Still sorting things out with VW Credit to get the balance of my unused 100K extended warranty payout. The sales guys at the dealership insist the money goes to VW Credit. I think not, the car was paid off, the money belongs to me. And he was rude, really rude about it. To say I don't know, here's the number to VW Credit to learn more would have been the right thing to do, but VW dealers appear to be uninterested in doing right by people. 

Never again VW. Never again LaFontaine Group. I'm sticking with my pre-owned 2013 2.5L Subaru Forester for the time being. Pre CVT, no car payment, lower insurance and much, much better in the snow. She ain't sexy, but she gets the job done. If I hadn't gone with a used vehicle, I'd be looking at another 3 years of car payments. Not sure how that was supposed to make me whole, not since I was planning on keep the JSW for a few years after it was paid off. Opportunity costs, anyone?

Now I wait for that sweet AWD Buick Regal/Opel Insignia wagon to hit these shores. And I won't be buying it from LaFontaine Buick!


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

Jetta goes back today. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

NickCarter said:


> Jetta goes back today.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


seems like its all working out fine.
luck.

"t minus" one month for our JSW


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

Any word on how long it is taking to pay off the loans? The FTC order requires the loans to be paid off with 5 business days but I was wondering how long it's taking in real life.


----------



## EJPolaski (Sep 24, 2008)

Mine took 4 business days after the money cleared in my bank account. 8 from when I dropped off the car at the dealer though....

No sweat though, its over :beer:


----------



## NickCarter (Sep 12, 2011)

Process took about 15 minutes today. Also cancelled my GAP while at the dealership. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

Another page almost gone, month and a half later, I'm still waiting for offer letter and stacking up miles. :beer:


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Still no offer letter?? Damn. My car goes back next Friday. I need to find a battery to swap into it.


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

Casper the friendly Golf goes back today! It's been a fun ride! Still love diesels and VW. 



















Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## SoLo2pointO (Jul 12, 2001)

SixpackMk3 said:


> Another page almost gone, month and a half later, I'm still waiting for offer letter and stacking up miles. :beer:


Hey me too! Does anyone have some sort of insider information to expedite this process?? Every time I call the number, it's the same canned response... busy, lots of claims, taking longer than expected blah blah, call back in a week. I've been waiting since November 1 for my offer letter to show up...


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

SoLo2pointO said:


> Hey me too! Does anyone have some sort of insider information to expedite this process?? Every time I call the number, it's the same canned response... busy, lots of claims, taking longer than expected blah blah, call back in a week. I've been waiting since November 1 for my offer letter to show up...


Yea I called and she said everything is fine, just waiting on 3rd part to get off their @ss and send in offer letters. I was curious to see maybe my credit union was giving them a hard time but she said all that has been done already, and should hear something within the next couple of weeks. I think there is a batch of us that just got fked in the process and got pushed way the fk back, cause I know people that applied/docs approved after mine did, and they already turned in their vehicles and got paid. :screwy:


----------



## jsmyle1%... (Jun 6, 2006)

quailallstar said:


> Casper the friendly Golf goes back today! It's been a fun ride! Still love diesels and VW.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awwwwww......

Replaced though right?


----------



## dragonfli_x (Jul 16, 2002)

*what all must be included during the trade in?*

I read the part of the agreement that the car must be able to drive to receive the full amount, but my radio has no power since I just removed all the aftermarket components of my carputer to bring it back to looking stock. what condition must the car be in? I know it was a topic somewhere in this thread, but the thread has gotten too big for my simple ADHD mind to sift through. any insight?

I wish I could keep the seats, the stock radio, the spare tire, and some other small bits... as long as the car is still driveable. scheduled date at dealership is Jan 11, 2017 ... might look into those new e-trons...


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

dragonfli_x said:


> I read the part of the agreement that the car must be able to drive to receive the full amount, but my radio has no power since I just removed all the aftermarket components of my carputer to bring it back to looking stock. what condition must the car be in? I know it was a topic somewhere in this thread, but the thread has gotten too big for my simple ADHD mind to sift through. any insight?


I think the general gist of the entire thing is that the car must drive in under its own 2.0L TDI power plus must not be willfully stripped of the bits and pieces that would (emissions issues aside) make it illegal from a roadworthy standpoint since the spirit of the settlement is likely to be that VW could apply an emissions fix and turn around and resell the car. If you do things to it that get in the way of the car being reasonably sellable (and especially unroadworthy) after an emissions fix, you are probably inviting trouble. The spirit of the whole settlement is based on the assumption that VW agreed to the buyback assuming there was a good chance the car would be in sellable condition.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

dragonfli_x said:


> I read the part of the agreement that the car must be able to drive to receive the full amount, but my radio has no power since I just removed all the aftermarket components of my carputer to bring it back to looking stock. what condition must the car be in? I know it was a topic somewhere in this thread, but the thread has gotten too big for my simple ADHD mind to sift through. any insight?
> 
> I wish I could keep the seats, the stock radio, the spare tire, and some other small bits... as long as the car is still driveable. scheduled date at dealership is Jan 11, 2017 ... might look into those new e-trons...


Here's the colloquy between the VW attorney, the judge and the FTC lawyer:

I wanted, your Honor, if possible, to flag one issue for
the Court. While the great majority of Volkswagen customers
participating in the 2-liter settlement have taken very good
care of their vehicles. A handful of owners have brought in
vehicles for buyback that have been regrettably deliberately
stripped of parts. In fact, at least one owner went so far as
to strip the car of almost every removable part, including
seats, doors, a radio and even the air bag.
Now, under the settlement agreement there was an allowance
made for class members whose vehicles were in accidents or
otherwise suffered from harm through no fault of their own.
But, you know, we think that deliberately stripping the
vehicles of their parts goes -- goes too far. And, in fact,
the buyback announced provided for in the agreement were based
on the value of the cars as a whole, including their parts.
So, respectfully, Volkswagen would ask the Court to advise
class members that if they wish to receive settlement benefits,
they should not be engaging in deliberate parts stripping, and
we would very much appreciate that, your Honor.
THE COURT: And I would echo that. I think -- I
think you're absolutely correct, Mr. Giuffra.
The amounts, the whole process was based upon what I would
say the average car or at least the class of cars without the
necessity of looking at each individual car. Because we're
talking about 400,000, 500,000 cars, it would have lengthened
this process and complicated it enormously.
And so I think -- I think that not just in the spirit, but
clearly the purpose of the agreement was to accept these cars
by Volkswagen in the condition that they were -- they were in
as they were being driven on the road, and that's -- and not to
strip the cars.
And, obviously, if there is any concern in a particular
case or it becomes a larger problem, the Court will address it
upon motion of the parties. But I think that a word of caution
is appropriate at this time.
MR. GIUFFRA: Thank you very much, your Honor. We
very much appreciate that.
MR. COHEN: Your Honor, this is Jonathan Cohen for
the Federal Trade Commission. If I may just address two things
that Volkswagen just said very briefly.
THE COURT: Certainly.
MR. COHEN: We are definitely absolutely against abad faith behavior by consumers or dealers or companies or
anyone, but we want to make sure that consumers are not
concerned that eligibility for compensation depends on the
vehicle's superficial condition, because it doesn't under the
orders and the order language governs.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

dragonfli_x said:


> I read the part of the agreement that the car must be able to drive to receive the full amount, but my radio has no power since I just removed all the aftermarket components of my carputer to bring it back to looking stock. what condition must the car be in?


As long as everything the car came with is present, they _should_ overlook the stereo not working. Don't tell them it's your fault, just tell them you can't get it to turn on, if they even ask at all. In fact don't bring it up unless they ask. As for stripping it, you can't. You _might_ get a friendly dealer that lets you return it on steel wheels and cheap tires, but they have the right to reject it.



> The TDI owner had stripped his car to the bare bones, leaving an “operable” vehicle that technically met the requirements of the recall.
> Postponed appointment
> 
> There were blurred lines as to whether VW would accept Mr Mayer’s stripped-back vehicle. According to the buyback settlement requirements, the vehicles “must be operable, meaning that it can be driven on its own engine power”. The VW Group have arguably made a silly error of leaving the buyback requirement rather wide; consequently allowing room for interpretation, as we have already seen.
> ...


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> As long as everything the car came with is present, they _should_ overlook the stereo not working. Don't tell them it's your fault, just tell them you can't get it to turn on, if they even ask at all. In fact don't bring it up unless they ask. As for stripping it, you can't. You _might_ get a friendly dealer that lets you return it on steel wheels and cheap tires, but they have the right to reject it.


Agree with the above, don't talk about anything unless specifically asked (same when you are arrested, on trial or being audited). Very unlikely they ask about the stereo but if they did just say it won't turn on and you haven't bothered to get it fixed (which I think is actually the truth).


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

If this has already been done please post the link; Is there a Canadian Deiselgate thread ?

If not, might be time to split the info. Not really wanting to have to sift through a couple of pages of people discussing their EFTs and what they bought to find one little nugget of Canadian content. Otherwise it has been nice to follow how things have unfolded in the states.


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

dmorrow said:


> Agree with the above, don't talk about anything unless specifically asked (same when you are arrested, on trial or being audited). Very unlikely they ask about the stereo but if they did just say it won't turn on and you haven't bothered to get it fixed (which I think is actually the truth).


Honestly, given the entire process has been reported to take roughly 15 minutes or less, I bet they will just start the motor, maybe put it in gear and move it one inch forward or backwards, write down the odo reading, check the VIN, and then eyeball it by walking around the car for any blatant issues that may be deliberate in nature. Beyond that, I bet they won't spend more than about 90 seconds looking at the thing.


----------



## todcp (Mar 6, 2005)

*Turned in Passat*

Ten minutes and out of the dealership. Painless.

Just got my email from Chase bank to have them send me my cash via ETF. Their software said pick two security questions but guess what. The drop down did not list any security questions. What the heck!!!!!!!!!!! Have to call Chase in the a.m. and ask why their site is broken.


UPDATE... the Chase website worked this morning. EFT payment due in one or two business days. 

Now waiting for what VW cash will be paid for my 2015 Touareg.


----------



## comma (Jan 16, 2010)

todcp said:


> Ten minutes and out of the dealership. Painless.
> 
> Just got my email from Chase bank to have them send me my cash via ETF. Their software said pick two security questions but guess what. The drop down did not list any security questions. What the heck!!!!!!!!!!! Have to call Chase in the a.m. and ask why their site is broken.


It's a password issue. They are super picky about the password you use and until you enter the format that they like it wont give you the questions.


----------



## Rufus T. Firefly (Jul 2, 2016)

I just got an email today with the subject "VWGoA Online Claims Portal - Additional Documentation Required". It says:

*For Volkswagen to process your claim, we need additional information. Please submit the following document by mailing or faxing it to the address or number listed below.

Previous Registration

Mailing Address: VW / Audi Emissions Settlement Claims Processing, P.O. Box 214500 Auburn Hills, MI 48321
Fax Number: 248-754-6602

As a reminder, please ensure that your reference number is visible on the top of each document. Your reference number is xxxxxxxxx.*

Has anyone else gotten something like this? If it matters, I'm opting for the fix. My driver's license and current registration have been approved.


----------



## Astronaut3000 (Sep 9, 2002)

Rufus T. Firefly said:


> I just got an email today with the subject "VWGoA Online Claims Portal - Additional Documentation Required". It says:
> 
> *For Volkswagen to process your claim, we need additional information. Please submit the following document by mailing or faxing it to the address or number listed below.
> 
> ...


I had that - they said it was both my license and registration. In reality it was that I had uploaded an old scan of my (now expired) license.
I re-uploaded both docs and waited an extra couple weeks. I made sure to call and asked nicely to be expedited, which seemed like it helped.


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

Buyback is all done.  I'll miss the 6-speed and great milage. Not to mention Dynaudio. 














































Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## bobt2382 (Jul 29, 2009)

quailallstar said:


> Casper the friendly Golf goes back today! It's been a fun ride! Still love diesels and VW.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


Sad to see this one go . I enjoyed your build thread.


----------



## veedubBiker (Nov 20, 2002)

If anyone's planning on keeping their car for the time being, I have an extra oil filter I obviously don't need any more. Send me a few bucks for shipping and its yours...it's this one:

https://www.idparts.com/oil-filter-vw-071115562c-mann-hu719-7x-p-495.html


----------



## GlhTroy (Aug 6, 2013)

Finally! Got my offer letter this morning. So as it stands at the moment my time line is as follows.
10/29/16 - docs uploaded
11/6/16 - docs approved (all green checks)
1/6/17 - received offer letter (I will get notarized and uploaded this afternoon)

I did call just yesterday and requested that a supervisor call me to find out what was causing the 60 hold up on my offer letter. May be what helped me along or could just be a coincidence 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

GlhTroy said:


> Finally! Got my offer letter this morning. So as it stands at the moment my time line is as follows.
> 10/29/16 - docs uploaded
> 11/6/16 - docs approved (all green checks)
> 1/6/17 - received offer letter (I will get notarized and uploaded this afternoon)
> ...


That's great news! Let us know when you get your appointment date! :beer:


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Phaetonchix_2 said:


> Got the buyback offer. Waited months for a turn in date on 12/30/16, took a $145 hit for being over in miles, *lost money on window tint*, wheel locks and barely used snows and steelies. To add insult to injury, the Buyback ate two batteries in the three weeks leading up to the big day. Spent $200 on a new battery 12 days before the JSW TDI went back to VWoA. Still don't know what electronic gremlin was the source of my problems, it's a VW so...Let's just say it took a hell of a lot of willpower not to yell "Don't do it! It's a TRAP!" to all the Sign & Drive event suckers in the store while I waited for the 3rd battery in as many weeks to be installed.



Excuse me? Lost money on window tint? Please explain. This is not a part of the settlement or car condition at buyback at all.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Excuse me? Lost money on window tint? Please explain. This is not a part of the settlement or car condition at buyback at all.


easy.
its an aftermarket mod that cannot be removed to recoup any product/installation costs.

YES. its minor. but a loss is a loss.

the reason its a loss is just what you said. "this is not a part of the settlement or car condition at buyback at all"... 
hence. VW will not reimbursement him for the cost, even at a depreciated value for usage. thus. again. its a loss.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Excuse me? Lost money on window tint? Please explain. This is not a part of the settlement or car condition at buyback at all.


simple:


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

dunhamjr said:


> easy.
> its an aftermarket mod that cannot be removed to recoup any product/installation costs.
> 
> YES. its minor. but a loss is a loss.
> ...


Oh ok we are on the same page - the way she wrote the post I thought that she showed up to turn the car in and they deducted money from her payout because of the window tint LOL

I guess after the Jalopnik guy got people all riled up of course I would think that way.


But you make perfect sense and I agree. Its a lost cost VW won't reimburse (nor should they) - I did minimal mods on my wifes JSW including tint and honestly turning it in as is, we still are getting $1k+ more than what we paid out the door 1.5 years ago including those costs.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Oh ok we are on the same page
> 
> we still are getting $1k+ more than what we paid out the door 1.5 years ago including those costs.


:thumbup:

always nice when you get to drive a car for essentially free :beer:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> easy.
> its an aftermarket mod that cannot be removed to recoup any product/installation costs.
> 
> YES. its minor. but a loss is a loss.
> ...



Actually that sort of thing was all considered in the restitution. 

Also if you read that entire post it sounds like she is actually KEEPING the stock wheels and tires yet still cries that they are losing money on snow tires they are dumping on the car to keep more valuable parts. :screwy:



The week this scandal broke I spent ~$1000 on my 2012 doing an 80k service, new tires, and spent several days detailing the snot out of it since it was for sale, also been carrying insurance on it for 16 extra months.. But I'm getting about 6k more than I would have selling it if this never happened, just like she is, that more than covers tint. 



Zero sympathy when it seems they are already trying to make money off other parts they kept while returning it with aftermarket parts.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> easy.
> its an aftermarket mod that cannot be removed to recoup any product/installation costs.
> 
> YES. its minor. but a loss is a loss.


You didn't lose any money, you simply had fewer days to amortize the cost. You still used that tint every day you had it on the car. Instead of having X days to amortize the cost you only had Y days to amortize the cost.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> You didn't lose any money, you simply had fewer days to amortize the cost. You still used that tint every day you had it on the car. Instead of having X days to amortize the cost you only had Y days to amortize the cost.


ok so how about you go get the dsg service done... or replace the clutch or timing belt... RIGHT before you turn the car in.

you got to use it, even if only for a day... so its not money lost, right? you just had to amortize that cost over a day instead of over 40/60/100k miles.

while what you say might be technically correct. thats not really the point.

people spent money to improve some aspect of their car, and now are not being refunded that cost.
would they have tinted the windows if they knew the buyback was coming? probably not.
would they have tinted the windows in a leased car? many may not since they know in 2-4yrs the car is gone.

you have your threshold for what you will spend knowing its will be a loss, or based on how long of usage they will get. others have their threshold. you dont have the right to tell me what my own valuation for these items and their loss is.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> ok so how about you go get the dsg service done... or replace the clutch or timing belt... RIGHT before you turn the car in.


Why not reply to the person (me) who just stated they did exactly this 16+ months ago on a car that was already for sale and couldn't sell for a reasonable price because of this? Then continued to pay insurance on a car they already didn't want for those 16 months?? I didn't use any of the 1000 bucks I invested and my hours of time detailing a car I hoped to sell as mint will now be worth identical to one that has a dent on every panel...Oh more then a grand I forgot I got the rear bumper fixed from damage in a wind storm the week this broke. 

But is actually capable of doing basic math and realized I"m getting 50% more for a car by holding onto it?

Sorry no sympathy for people terrible at math and lack understanding of what restitution is. 



> would they have tinted the windows in a leased car? many may not since they know in 2-4yrs the car is gone.


You realize that 10s of thousands do this annually right?





> you dont have the right to tell me what my own valuation for these items and their loss is.


Actually he does, as does anyone else. Just like you have the right to ignore it.

But this is a private forum and really no one has any rights.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> Actually he does, as does anyone else. Just like you have the right to ignore it.
> 
> But this is a private forum and really no one has any rights.


Touche'
I suppose that is true. I can ignore it. 


Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

The fix has been approved for generation 3 (all model year 2015+ 4 cylinder TDI)

https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-approves-fix-volkswagen-diesels-170320067.html


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

GoFaster said:


> The fix has been approved for generation 3 (all model year 2015+ 4 cylinder TDI)
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-approves-fix-volkswagen-diesels-170320067.html


but but but dozens of posts here claim this is impossible!!!! 



:thumbup:


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

GoFaster said:


> The fix has been approved for generation 3 (all model year 2015+ 4 cylinder TDI)
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-approves-fix-volkswagen-diesels-170320067.html


Hmm... I'm hoping these start popping up as CPOs.

Based on the fix, I'm guessing that in "cheat" mode, VW was running the engine leaner to avoid premature filling of the DPF?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

GoFaster said:


> The fix has been approved for generation 3 (all model year 2015+ 4 cylinder TDI)
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-approves-fix-volkswagen-diesels-170320067.html


Interesting. That gives TDI fans the ability to find emissions legal vehicles if they still want one.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> but but but dozens of posts here claim this is impossible!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> :thumbup:


IIRC, the EPA settled on "partial" compliance. Hence why a retrofit became possible.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

BUJonathan said:


> IIRC, the EPA settled on "partial" compliance. Hence why a retrofit became possible.


There have been comments within the last few weeks, heck days, despite the partial compliance being public for months, saying that a fix is impossible and they are all getting crushed. Basically peoples excuses as to why stripping off bumpers and stripping cars to rolling shells is perfectly fine since none will ever be sold again.


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> There have been comments within the last few weeks, heck days, despite the partial compliance being public for months, saying that a fix is impossible and they are all getting crushed. Basically peoples excuses as to why stripping off bumpers and stripping cars to rolling shells is perfectly fine since none will ever be sold again.


Ahh, understand. I haven't followed this thread the past few weeks.


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

quailallstar said:


> I'll miss the 6-speed and great milage. Not to mention Dynaudio.


Same here, especially the Dynaudio. I'm guessing we had almost the same car....mine is a 2011 Golf TDI, white, every option except auto and nav. The Dynaudio is fantastic to my ears too.


----------



## andyA6 (Nov 10, 2000)

Next Wednesday our '13 Golf goes back. They have 4 guys there to take care of business, all day long... I talked to them just yesterday. No stripped cars and practically everybody is sad to see the TDI's go. So sad it came this way but we will get a Q5 as a replacement.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

chris86vw said:


> but but but dozens of posts here claim this is impossible!!!!
> 
> :thumbup:


The gen 3's I was never worried about and there are the least amount of them around - glad to see this happen. However, 9k cars up for grabs now at dealerships for 100k+ customers that want them? LOL

Its the Gen 1's that I was worried about since the difference in emissions between Gen 1 and Gen 3 is pretty substantial according to a chart I saw a few months back -


----------



## GlhTroy (Aug 6, 2013)

SixpackMk3 said:


> That's great news! Let us know when you get your appointment date!


 Well made my appointment 4 hours after I uploaded my notarized offer letter. For f***ing March 2nd. If it wasn't for them taking 60 days to get my offer letter to me my car could probably be gone by now  . Ok rant over. So 2 more payments and I can take it back 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

gti_matt said:


> Same here, especially the Dynaudio. I'm guessing we had almost the same car....mine is a 2011 Golf TDI, white, every option except auto and nav. The Dynaudio is fantastic to my ears too.


Yeah I even had it ordered with rear side airbags. A true unicorn.  

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

jsmyle1%... said:


> Awwwwww......
> 
> Replaced though right?


Yup got a MY16 Golf Wagon SE w/lighting pkg + slushbox. Hope all is well! :beer:


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

*UPDATE:
*
Buyback vehicle processed - Thursday, Jan 5, 2016
CHASE EFT payment e-mail received - Sat, Jan 7, 2017

EFT Payment should be deposited into my back account in an estimated 1-2 business days. Overall the payment processing has been quicker than I expected.


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

GlhTroy said:


> Finally! Got my offer letter this morning. So as it stands at the moment my time line is as follows.
> 10/29/16 - docs uploaded
> 11/6/16 - docs approved (all green checks)
> 1/6/17 - received offer letter (I will get notarized and uploaded this afternoon)
> ...


Glad to see you finally got the offer, my docs approved on 11/3 and I'm still waiting. Numerous calls into the claims line and presently on my third escalation. Out of boredom I started tweeting this week about it, today is day 65 of no offer email.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

Green Hare said:


> Glad to see you finally got the offer, my docs approved on 11/3 and I'm still waiting. Numerous calls into the claims line and presently on my third escalation. Out of boredom I started tweeting this week about it, today is day 65 of no offer email.


Wow 65 days!? What sucks is that if we have to drive these cars more than the "estimated" mileage that was entered in the beginning, what happens then? We get screwed because they took forever to process papers and we get less money because we HAD to drive our cars during this period? 

My estimated mileage was at 35k miles and we're passed that now cause the car gets driven 70 miles a day for work, so it's going to be way passed over the mileage once these ding-dongs decide to process offer letters, so that I can have a date in hand to just park the car finally to be able to go get something else. I would love to park in now and get something else but I can't afford 3 car payments.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

SixpackMk3 said:


> Wow 65 days!? What sucks is that if we have to drive these cars more than the "estimated" mileage that was entered in the beginning, what happens then? We get screwed because they took forever to process papers and we get less money because we HAD to drive our cars during this period?
> 
> My estimated mileage was at 35k miles and we're passed that now cause the car gets driven 70 miles a day for work, so it's going to be way passed over the mileage once these ding-dongs decide to process offer letters, so that I can have a date in hand to just park the car finally to be able to go get something else. I would love to park in now and get something else but I can't afford 3 car payments.


You get about 1040 miles per month without changing your buyback figure. So if you drive 70 miles per work day, you are only adding 360 miles per month over what you are allowed or about 1080 for the extra 3 months. And if I recall correctly the breaks between mileage ranges are every 5000 miles. So unless you are less than 1000 miles before you would get bumped into the next range, your payout shouldn't change even if you drive that 70 miles per workday (assuming 20 workdays per month).


----------



## Gabriel J (Oct 5, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> The week this scandal broke I spent ~$1000 on my 2012 doing an 80k service, new tires, and spent several days detailing the snot out of it since it was for sale, also been carrying insurance on it for 16 extra months.. But I'm getting about 6k more than I would have selling it if this never happened, just like she is, that more than covers tint.


My wife was considering a new car after her work commute became much shorter, and the local VW dealer offered $12,500 for a trade on her '13 jetta just before the stop sale of TDI's started..Thursday, nearly 2 years later we were at the same dealer collecting a $22,000 check for a 3 year old car with over 80k miles. Plus, I convinced her to get a Golf R as a replacement. Financial win, fun car to drive win. 

Bit sad to see a perfectly good car go to a boneyard where it may or may not ever see the road again, would be my only gripe.


----------



## b0mb3r (Nov 9, 2006)

Appointment scheduled for end of February to turn it in... feverish hunt for replacement has begun.


----------



## GlhTroy (Aug 6, 2013)

Green Hare said:


> Glad to see you finally got the offer, my docs approved on 11/3 and I'm still waiting. Numerous calls into the claims line and presently on my third escalation. Out of boredom I started tweeting this week about it, today is day 65 of no offer email.


When you 3rd escalation do you mean you have spoken to/ requested a supervisor to call you in regards to what is holding things up? If not I encourage you and everyone else who had their docs approved in the beginning of November to request to speak with a supervisor. This 60 days for a offer letter is ridiculous at best! Now in my area the earliest you can make an appointment is March 1st, so 2 more car payments for me.

Them fumbling the ball has definitely thrown a wrench in my wife and I finances. We purchased her a 2016 suv at a great price expecting my car to be returned by now. Based off of their time line, giving some extra time as well. It was our decision to spend the money I know that, but we were not expecting this type of a hold up. It is certainly a crap situation and I hope you get your offer letter very very soon. There are more than a few of us from early November doc approvals that seem to be getting screwed. For now apparent reason imo. 

Troy

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## maydaymike (Dec 12, 2014)

Sigh... turned in the car on 12/17, but the loan wasn't paid until 1/4, probably based on the 12/17 payoff quote. The result is the loan is still showing a balance of $160, in addition to a $25 late fee for the payment that would have been due on the 19th. The wife will have to get on the phone with Chase (our loan was through them) on Monday to see what's up.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

GlhTroy said:


> When you 3rd escalation do you mean you have spoken to/ requested a supervisor to call you in regards to what is holding things up?


First escalation: 12/19, rep said "I can see your offer letter, I'm going to escalate to IT since it should have been sent" 
Second escalation: 12/23, rep said "I'm putting in an escalation for a supervisor callback, you should hear from them in 2-3 business days" 
Third escalation: 1/5, rep said "I've checked with my supervisor, I can't believe you didn't get a call back, I'm going to escalate this but code it differently and you should hear something within 3-5 business days" 

Personally at this point, I think any escalation is a load of crap and just a way for them to get you off the phone. I have yet to be able to speak to any supervisor, I have been told more than once that reps can SEE my offer letter, that it generated/sent for audit on November 8th, and they are all dumbfounded that I have yet to receive it. 

The part that pisses me off the most? Besides the lack of real answers or the ability to speak to someone who's not a frontline employee that knows nothing more than I can see when I look at the Portal? It's the simple fact that we started the process for my husband's car on 11/1, that flew through and buyback completed on 12/23. I have guided a few coworkers through the process, they too have either completed their buybacks, or have appointments scheduled. I don't have a clue what the issue is delaying mine. There is no lien on the car (it's a 2010 and has been paid off for 3 years), clean title in hand, etc... whatever. It's sitting at the dealer that will be where the buyback occurs, nothing in it, plates removed (expired registration, already renewed/transferred to my GLI), so she just sits and waits. 

As for the mileage, I'm thinking if they keep dragging their feet on mine, they're going to need to bump me up a bracket. My Golf has had 109k miles on it since November 1st when it was dropped off at said dealership, I believe April will put me in the next tier for mileage adjustment, and as such (according to the charts on the FTC website) they will owe me $210 more for that mileage. 

Monday was day 60, and I decided that I'm going to tweet every single day, tagging @VW, @VWcares, @FTC, asking where my buyback is and listing the number of days that I have been waiting. #TDIOwnersUnite.


----------



## GlhTroy (Aug 6, 2013)

Green Hare said:


> First escalation: 12/19, rep said "I can see your offer letter, I'm going to escalate to IT since it should have been sent"
> Second escalation: 12/23, rep said "I'm putting in an escalation for a supervisor callback, you should hear from them in 2-3 business days"
> Third escalation: 1/5, rep said "I've checked with my supervisor, I can't believe you didn't get a call back, I'm going to escalate this but code it differently and you should hear something within 3-5 business days"
> 
> ...


WOW! I was never told that my offer letter was generated like many others. You have most definitely got the thick prickly part of shaft for sure. I would tweet, and make phone calls every day. It is ridiculous what you have going on. I will drink an extra glass for you tonight. Your situation is making me feel better about mine. My jetta is just sitting in my driveway at my house, would be nice to get it off insurance etc. Sooner rather than later. 

Keep us posted. Hope this week is your week. 

Troy

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

We bought a 2017 Jetta SE 5SM outright w/ buyback money. Pretty happy w/ the whole deal 













Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

I got an email this morning saying they want a copy of my previous registration. So now I gotta get that sent over and who knows how long it will take for them to review that and accept it, blah blah blah :banghead::banghead::banghead:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*FBI arrests Volkswagen exec on fraud charges, report says*



> The Federal Bureau of Investigation arrested a Volkswagen Group executive on charges of conspiracy to defraud the U.S., the New York Times reported.
> 
> Oliver Schmidt, who headed the company's regulatory compliance office in the U.S. from 2014 to March 2015, was arrested on Saturday by federal investigators in Florida, the newspaper reported, citing people familiar with the matter.
> 
> ...


----------



## quailallstar (Dec 2, 2001)

*My entire TDI buyback odyssey 

UPDATE: 
*

*Claim docs uploaded -* September 24, 2016
_*Claim docs approved*_ - October 21, 2016
_*Offer pkg letter received*_ - December 2, 2016
_*Offer pkg letter signed/notarized and uploaded to portal -*_ December 2, 2016
_*Offer pkg letter accepted by VW - *_December 5, 2016
_*Buyback vehicle processed *_- Thursday, Jan 5, 2016
_*CHASE EFT payment e-mail received *_- Sat, Jan 7, 2017
_*Bank accepted EFT from CHASE and funds available*_ - Mon, Jan 9, 2017

*Buyback is 100% complete and closed out. *


----------



## Eye Candy White (Nov 9, 2006)

Any other 2015 TDI owners out there hanging onto their cars for a while yet staring the 40K mile DSG service in the face and wondering what they'll do?

We purchased my wife's 2015 GSW TDI SEL DSG in April 2015 - the car now has 32K miles on it (19 months of ownership, likely averaging 1,500 miles per month going forward). It's likely we'll hit 40K miles mid-summer, and I don't really have plans of getting rid of the car until summer of 2018.

I'm not wild about the idea of spending $400+ on a DSG service for a car that I will knowingly sell back to VW at some point in the next 12-18 months.

Anyone else in this boat? What are you doing? Would VW discount the DSG service heavily to simply ensure that this car that will be their property soon is maintained sufficiently to be used for parts?


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Eye Candy White said:


> Any other 2015 TDI owners out there hanging onto their cars for a while yet staring the 40K mile DSG service in the face and wondering what they'll do?
> 
> We purchased my wife's 2015 GSW TDI SEL DSG in April 2015 - the car now has 32K miles on it (19 months of ownership, likely averaging 1,500 miles per month going forward). It's likely we'll hit 40K miles mid-summer, and I don't really have plans of getting rid of the car until summer of 2018.
> 
> ...


you plan to put 1500/mo for the next 18 months... meaning another 27k miles on top of the 32k it already has.
that means you will be coming up on 60k miles.

IMO.
i wouldnt want to skip the 40k service. try find a way to get it done cheap and then maximize your usage of the car to account for having to pay the maintenance.

or if you want to cheap out.
dont get the service and drive it. if it starts giving you issues, stop driving it immediately and get your buyback appointment scheduled asap.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> IMO.
> i wouldnt want to skip the 40k service. try find a way to get it done cheap and then maximize your usage of the car to account for having to pay the maintenance.


Agreed :thumbup:

DIY or find a local shop to do it at a reasonable price. Going 50% over on a service could cost you a lot more than the cost of the service itself.


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

GlhTroy said:


> WOW! I was never told that my offer letter was generated like many others. You have most definitely got the thick prickly part of shaft for sure. I would tweet, and make phone calls every day. It is ridiculous what you have going on. I will drink an extra glass for you tonight. Your situation is making me feel better about mine. My jetta is just sitting in my driveway at my house, would be nice to get it off insurance etc. Sooner rather than later.
> 
> Keep us posted. Hope this week is your week.
> 
> Troy


Thanks, I am hoping it is as well. This is getting old fast.

On a side note, anyone in the northeast have a TDI that's going back that might want to swap their 17s for the 16s that I've got on my GLI for winter?


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

Green Hare said:


> First escalation: 12/19, rep said "I can see your offer letter, I'm going to escalate to IT since it should have been sent"
> Second escalation: 12/23, rep said "I'm putting in an escalation for a supervisor callback, you should hear from them in 2-3 business days"
> Third escalation: 1/5, rep said "I've checked with my supervisor, I can't believe you didn't get a call back, I'm going to escalate this but code it differently and you should hear something within 3-5 business days"



That's how mine went, CALLED the FTC and opened a complaint that they ( the group operating the buy back process ) was operating in bad faith and hey what do you know, my offer letter came the next day....

my offer letter was dated Nov 8th as well.

They were bitching about my registration, well my state has 2 year registrations that look different than 1 year. It appears their method of verifying registrations is to do a google image search and see if yours is similar.

The whole thing is run by incompetent clowns.

I'll have NO pity when VW goes under from this mess and when my car BURSTS into flames for some unknown reason 15 minutes after it is bought back.... if that were to happen.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

The issue date of the offer letter has nothing to do with when you receive it. I posted this many, many pages back. PM me if you have questions!


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Aseras said:


> They were bitching about my registration, well my state has 2 year registrations that look different than 1 year. It appears their method of verifying registrations is to do a google image search and see if yours is similar.


This is completely false to say the least.


----------



## dragonfli_x (Jul 16, 2002)

*Set for buyback tomorrow at 10AM*

our 2013 audi a3 will be brought back tomorrow... kind of hate to see it go, but with our odometer at 90k+ ... it might be in our best interest to get a replacement...sigh.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

spockcat said:


> *FBI arrests Volkswagen exec on fraud charges, report says*


More arrests could be on the way if VW execs travel to/thru the USA:

*VW managers warned to stay in Germany as U.S. charges near*



> WASHINGTON-- Some of Volkswagen Group's top executives may find it risky to leave Germany as U.S. prosecutors prepare to charge more company officials.
> 
> Oliver Schmidt, a VW executive, was arrested in Miami as he was returning to Germany from vacation and faces charges of misleading regulators about the automaker's diesel-emissions cheating devices. Prosecutors are preparing to charge more high-level German-based executives in the case, a person familiar with the matter said.
> 
> ...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

> Extradition barred
> 
> The U.S. can charge individuals in Germany, but getting executives to stand trial in the U.S. could be difficult because Germany's constitution bars extradition of German nationals to foreign countries other than European Union members.


You know, for as much as a jerk as Trump is, if Germany plays games with protecting their executives against prosecution all it will do is result in VW being the next company threatened with "Build it here or we'll rescind free trade with your country." To a certain extent, I am OK with playing a little more hardball. I think our current free trade agreements have gone too far in letting companies dump products here at costs that destroy US businesses. We'll see how this plays out, but we already know Trump has gone after Boeing, GM, Ford, and Toyota and gotten a response from them. VW could be the next target.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

quick Q, do I need to have current insurance and registration/plates on the car? 
Or can I roll in with nothing but my old registration (still technically current till may) my title and buyback letter?


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> You know, for as much as a jerk as Trump is, if Germany plays games with protecting their executives against prosecution all it will do is result in VW being the next company threatened with "Build it here or we'll rescind free trade with your country." To a certain extent, I am OK with playing a little more hardball. I think our current free trade agreements have gone too far in letting companies dump products here at costs that destroy US businesses. We'll see how this plays out, but we already know Trump has gone after Boeing, GM, Ford, and Toyota and gotten a response from them. VW could be the next target.



Send lawyers guns and money.


----------



## TxJet98 (Jun 29, 2012)

Hi, longtime lurker on this thread. Turned in my vehicle on Dec 27th. I was told I would get an email within 2-3 days to do the electronic fund transfer. 

Jan 8th I got billed by VW credit for my monthly payment. 

Called the buyback hotline and said I never got the email to get my money back. They said they will resubmit (and confirmed the correct email address, same as what I originally provided). 

Called VW credit and they are trying to reverse the payment.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW says it negotiated $4.3 billion U.S. criminal settlement*



> BERLIN -- Volkswagen has negotiated a concrete draft of a criminal and civil settlement worth $4.3 billion with the U.S. Justice Department and said the impact of the accord on its 2016 financial results cannot yet be defined.
> 
> Volkswagen said final conclusion of the settlement is still subject to approval by the carmaker's management and supervisory boards, adding the two bodies will address the matter still late on Tuesday or on Wednesday.
> 
> ...


----------



## Phaetonchix_2 (Oct 22, 2005)

TxJet98 said:


> Hi, longtime lurker on this thread. Turned in my vehicle on Dec 27th. I was told I would get an email within 2-3 days to do the electronic fund transfer.
> 
> Jan 8th I got billed by VW credit for my monthly payment.
> 
> ...


I spoke with VW Credit about 5 days after my 2014 JSW TDI was turned in as I need a release from them in order to get refunded for the unused portion of the extended warranty I purchased with the car. Happily, I was informed the payment I submitted on 12/16 would be refunded sometime in the next 3-4 weeks. 

Sit tight and follow up with VW Credit the end of January/beginning of February. Lots of us are in the same boat, VWOA and VW Credit are out of sync.


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

.yuk. said:


> The issue date of the offer letter has nothing to do with when you receive it. I posted this many, many pages back. PM me if you have questions!


Personally I couldn't give a rat's arse what the date on the offer letter is, the point is why is it taking them over two months to send it out?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Air and water do mix said:


> Send lawyers guns and money.


Based on the article I posted about 1 hour ago, VW brought plenty of lawyers and a boatload of money. Guns aren't politically correct these days.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

gah! this thread popping up all the time is making me antsy.

everything is in place.
we just are waiting for the delayed turn in date that I purposely chose.

but now that the choice is solidified, I just want the next month to fly by so that we can get a car out of the fleet.

feb 4th, hurry up and get here!!


----------



## clintg60-16v (Dec 13, 2002)

Bye TDI; 'deed is done.' 

I still have a 3.0L to go...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

So between the $17.5B and $4.3B, that's just shy of $22 billion dollars for the US alone, _not counting_ the investor lawsuits or lost sales due to the tarnished image and non-availability of TDIs that used to be popular with buyers. I wouldn't be surprised if the US cost will top $25 billion when it's all said. Very early on in this thread, somebody pointed out that real-world case studies are done in business school where companies have flouted the law and gotten punished hard. This will undoubtedly be a case study in the economics of business ethics for decades to come. I think it's already the single most costly business ethics failure of all time.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

AZGolf said:


> lost sales due to the tarnished image and non-availability of TDIs that used to be popular with buyers.


In the year of our lord when Trump is elected POTUS I suppose it shouldn't be so unbelievable that.... but.... yeah..... it is......



reuters said:


> *VW manages record 2016 sales despite Dieselgate crisis*
> 
> Despite the Dieselgate emissions scandal which has rocked Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE), the German carmaker achieved record group sales in 2016 of 10.3 million vehicles, including a 12 percent jump in December.
> 
> ...


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-vehicleregistrations-idUSKBN14U1G0


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

Sept 17 - uploaded docs
Oct 13 - Docs accepted
Nov 19 - offer letter drafted
Dec 12 - offer letter received
Dec 12 - notarized docs uploaded
Dec 14 - notarized docs accepted
Jan 10 - turned in vehicle

Waiting on Chase notification for the EFT. Bought an A4 quattro in the interim. Got my first year's payments for free due to a dealer promotion. Woo-hoo!!


----------



## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

I agree with VW needing to settle before Trump. I think he would hammer the **** out of VW. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ross1013 (May 25, 2012)

Aonarch said:


> I agree with VW needing to settle before Trump. I think he would hammer the **** out of VW.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He's not going to hammer anyone aside from people below the poverty line...


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Green Hare said:


> Personally I couldn't give a rat's arse what the date on the offer letter is, the point is why is it taking them over two months to send it out?


Many different reasons. Some logistical with cars and where to put them. Some is the offer letter was created before the claim is even reviewed so you think "it's taking too long". Some could be issues with the actual claim itself. Some could be VW dragging their ass and in no rush. 

I could go on for a while. But just like the rest of us, you'll have to wait it out.


----------



## SoLo2pointO (Jul 12, 2001)

Green Hare said:


> Personally I couldn't give a rat's arse what the date on the offer letter is, the point is why is it taking them over two months to send it out?


I'm with you! I've had green checks since November 1. I've followed up via chat/phone and have gotten the same canned response about being inundated with claims, etc. As far as I know, my offer hasn't even been generated yet. While I'm trying to be as patient as possible, I'd like to know what the hold up is...


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Aonarch said:


> I agree with VW needing to settle before Trump. I think he would hammer the **** out of VW.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think Trump would do quite the opposite. I've heard discussion on how he might want to relax the EPA laws...Maybe just maybe all the TDI's will be in compliance again.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

AJB said:


> I think Trump would do quite the opposite. I've heard discussion on how he might want to relax the EPA laws...Maybe just maybe all the TDI's will be in compliance again.


Trump has only discussed such things as a way to increase American manufacturing. His policies are 100% America-first. Since VW is not an American company and has the least US investment of any of the biggest global automakers, they are not very invested in American jobs. Trumps policies have been extremely clear: you make jobs in America or you're worthless. Since VW makes very little in the way of US jobs, they are most certainly on the naughty list.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW pleads guilty, agrees to $4.3 billion settlement; five more executives charged
Investigation continues, more executives may be charged*



> WASHINGTON (Bloomberg) -- Volkswagen took a major step toward resolving one of the darkest chapters in its history Wednesday, pleading guilty to an emissions-cheating scandal and agreeing to pay $4.3 billion in criminal and civil charges as the U.S. announced charges against five new individuals in Germany.
> 
> As part of its settlement, VW pleaded guilty to charges of conspiracy, obstruction of justice and using false statements to import cars to the U.S.
> 
> ...


----------



## NeverEnoughCars (Aug 2, 2013)

AZGolf said:


> Trump has only discussed such things as a way to increase American manufacturing. His policies are 100% America-first. Since VW is not an American company and has the least US investment of any of the biggest global automakers, they are not very invested in American jobs. Trumps policies have been extremely clear: you make jobs in America or you're worthless. Since VW makes very little in the way of US jobs, they are most certainly on the naughty list.


The funny thing with the build American concept today is it will just lead to more mechanization in order to drive down costs. :laugh:
Proudly built by Asian robots in America.


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

Wow, i submitted my paperwork last week and I already received my offer letter!

That was fast!!!


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> Trump has only discussed such things as a way to increase American manufacturing. His policies are 100% America-first. Since VW is not an American company and has the least US investment of any of the biggest global automakers, they are not very invested in American jobs. Trumps policies have been extremely clear: you make jobs in America or you're worthless. Since VW makes very little in the way of US jobs, they are most certainly on the naughty list.


He nominated Scott Pruitt head of the EPA - 



> Pruitt was quoted as saying: “The American people are tired of seeing billions of dollars drained from our economy due to unnecessary EPA regulations, and I intend to run this agency in a way that fosters both responsible protection of the environment and freedom for American businesses.”


Hardly sounds like someone that is going to go after VW for EPA violations (manufacturing plant in the U.S., thousands of dealerships, all with employees), then the case is finalized and agreed to by both parties so good luck.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW criminal probe moves forward as U.S. pursues unindicted co-conspirators
U.S. investigators cooperating with German authorities*



> U.S. Justice Department officials confirmed that unindicted co-conspirators remain in their ongoing investigation of Volkswagen AG’s diesel emissions scandal and that three of the six VW executives already publicly charged are still employed by the automaker.
> 
> U.S. Attorney Barbara McQuade on Wednesday confirmed to Automotive News that executives Oliver Schmidt, Juergen Peter and Heinz-Jakob Neusser remain employed by VW, though Neusser is suspended.
> 
> ...


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

The rottenness goes right to the top. It has to.


----------



## 2.0(slow) (Sep 8, 2013)

So our buyback was completed and today we received the email from Chase. The thing is that since we made the appointment for the buyback we made 2 payments on our loan. Will I have to contact my bank to get the refund?

Thanks


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

That is my biggest concern. That they won't pay my car off for a few months. Since VW is handling this oh so well.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW officials destroyed files, emails as diesel cheating unraveled, U.S. prosecutors say*



> January 12, 2017 10:15 CET
> 
> WASHINGTON/DETROIT -- Volkswagen Group's nearly decade-old plot to cheat U.S. emissions tests -- all while marketing its diesel cars as environmentally friendly -- was quickly unraveling by 2015. A campaign to mislead regulators was failing so badly that top executives signed off on a script for employees to use when questioned.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW faces reforms, oversight for 3 years under U.S. settlement*



> January 12, 2017 07:37 CET
> 
> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen Group, as part of a $4.3 billion settlement with U.S. regulators, on Wednesday agreed to sweeping reforms, new audits and oversight by an independent monitor for three years to resolve diesel emissions cheating investigations.
> 
> ...


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

*Fiat/Chrysler is in the EPA's crosshairs now*

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...epa-environmental-protection-agency/96485486/


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

spockcat said:


> *VW officials destroyed files, emails as diesel cheating unraveled, U.S. prosecutors say*
> 
> ...
> 
> "In the home office in Germany, some executives and engineers began deleting documents related to U.S. emissions and the company's head of engine development told an assistant to dispose of a hard drive containing emails from him and other supervisors."


While it's bad enough to cheat, the cover-up and hiding behind Germany's non-extradition to America is honestly the most offensive part of this whole mess. This is why the fines and penalties are so much worse than any other company that's done similar things in the past.


----------



## JOESELLSVW (Feb 13, 2000)

*Claims Website updated... just scheduled my "fix"*

I checked the website yesterday and I had green checks and "waiting to schedule".... Just a few minutes ago it changed to a link prompting me to schedule the service at my local dealer. I called them to confirm and they were just notified of the fix roll out my VW within the hour! Appointment set up for this coming Tuesday but might need to reschedule.... Joe


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

tomski12 said:


> http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...epa-environmental-protection-agency/96485486/


Oh boy..let the FCA thread begin...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

tomski12 said:


> http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...epa-environmental-protection-agency/96485486/





AJB said:


> Oh boy..let the FCA thread begin...


It did already and should be discussed there: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...er-of-cheating-emissions-laws-like-Volkswagen


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Feel a bit sorry for this guy. Just a bit.

*U.S. judge orders VW executive detained*



> MIAMI/NEW YORK -- A U.S. judge on Thursday ordered a Volkswagen executive charged in the Justice Department's diesel emissions investigation held without bail pending trial.
> 
> Oliver Schmidt was arrested Saturday at Miami's International Airport as he planned to fly home after a vacation. He was one of six current and former VW executives charged this week in U.S. District Court in Detroit. The other five are in Germany and are unlikely to be extradited.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Why your VW or Audi parts and vehicles might take a bit longer to get from Germany or Mexico. Porsche cheated too. They should also be dropped.

*
VW Dropped From Trusted-Cargo Program Over Cheating Scandal*



> The emissions-cheating scandal that has cost Volkswagen AG more than $20 billion has also made it harder to import its cars to the U.S.
> 
> Violations uncovered by the investigation into VW’s emissions cheating prompted U.S. officials in 2016 to remove the company from a trusted-cargo program overseen by U.S. Customs and Border Protection, said Nicole Navas, a Justice Department spokeswoman.
> 
> ...


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

autonews article said:


> if convicted. Schmidt is charged with eleven felony counts, which could be punished by up to 169 years in prison, the government said.


Well, he ain't no Malcolm B. Benson.


----------



## turbokirby (Sep 5, 2014)

My saga is finally over, yesterday VW credit received the final payoff for my loan.... Thankfully I still have my R Line convertible (I love that bug).


----------



## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

He needs to pepper his angus. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

My car is finally gone.










Called AAA and told them it needed a tow to the dealer, since it is non-op'ed and doesn't have road legal insurance. Tow truck guy had me drive it onto the truck, which was weird to me. It was fun trying to drive it up the slick ramp of his brand new tow truck in the rain. 

The buyback lady was confused at first when she saw it getting dropped off, but when she saw me drive it off everything was fine. I parked it, she had to ask me to start it since she can't drive stick :laugh:. Took a picture of the gauge cluster with the car running, then a picture of all four sides. I had to sign 2 forms, got my confirmed amount, and was sent on my way with the promise of receiving a payment email within 3 days. Took all of 15 minutes. A few friends of mine have already sold theirs back and said the email came within a day. We will see.


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

Kinda relevant. Apparently FCA got caught cheating too. Obviously they won't get as screwed as VW.

http://jalopnik.com/the-epa-will-ac...ource=jalopnik_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

TheRealCaptainSlow said:


> Kinda relevant. Apparently FCA got caught cheating too. Obviously they won't get as screwed as VW.
> 
> http://jalopnik.com/the-epa-will-ac...ource=jalopnik_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow


This was mentioned yesterday on the last page and there is already a TCL thread about it; http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...er-of-cheating-emissions-laws-like-Volkswagen


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

After almost 2 months of procrastinating, I was able to get my documents notarized this morning. Uploaded the documents a couple of hours ago and now they have been approved.

Now I just have to figure out when to turn in the car. Only thing holding me back is finding the time to put my car back to stock, and with my recently sprained ankle, it's going to be a good while before I can do that. 

Ugh. :banghead:


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

Sent my back yesterday at 5PM.










For those that have turned their TDIs on a Friday, did you get your email from Chase on Saturday evening, or on the next business day??


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

I turned in my car on Tuesday. Today I went to the dealership to pick up the plates for my new car. My TDI was still at the dealership. When I drove by, my trunk and other TDI trunks were open. I found that odd. I wonder if they're canabalizing parts, eg jacks, spare tires.


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

Mazda 3s said:


> For those that have turned their TDIs on a Friday, did you get your email from Chase on Saturday evening, or on the next business day??


I turned mine in on a Friday, got the email from Chase the following Monday and had the money in my account on Tuesday.


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

spockcat said:


> This was mentioned yesterday on the last page and there is already a TCL thread about it; http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...er-of-cheating-emissions-laws-like-Volkswagen


Oops, sorry for not keeping up with all 461 pages of this thread


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

TheRealCaptainSlow said:


> Oops, sorry for not keeping up with all 461 pages of this thread


Yes, it is complicated for some people to look back one page to see if yesterday's news was posted yesterday. Or for some people to look at the front page of TCL to see if such big news about another company might have been posted to its own thread yesterday. :laugh:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> Yes, it is complicated for some people to look back one page to see if yesterday's news was posted yesterday. Or for some people to look at the front page of TCL to see if such big news about another company might have been posted to its own thread yesterday. :laugh:


I was going to give you crap for your sensationalist BS about not being able to get parts when quoting an article that said nothing about parts (only vehicles and engines)....

But you redeemed yourself from your usual copy and paste without reading with this comment 


Also his username was at least fitting.


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

>.>


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Did a leading VW exec perfect defeat device rather than stop it?*



> While Volkswagen Group’s Richard Dorenkamp and Jens Hadler may have been the powertrain duo who first introduced the defeat device into the automaker’s 2.0 liter diesels nearly a decade ago, former VW brand development chief Heinz-Jakob Neusser appears to have perfected it, according to U.S. court documents.
> 
> Roughly five years ago, VW detected that some of the cars equipped with the cheat system were experiencing undue stress to their exhaust systems. Engineers at the brand believed the hardware failures were a result of the cars incorrectly operating in test-bench or "dyno mode" -- in other words within the U.S. clean air limits -- when in reality they should have been in so-called "street mode,” during which they would be significantly exceeding emissions rules, according to court records.
> 
> ...


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Car returned 1/13 at 2:30pm
JP Morgan email 1/16 at 11:11pm

Still waiting for direct deposit.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Just a friendly reminder, don't forget to cancel your extended warranty if you have one and collect a partial refund. I'm fighting with the dealer I bought mine from for a refund. Ugh.


----------



## MARCB54 (Jan 17, 2017)

*Drop off to FTE deoposit*

Seems as though many are wondering how long the EFT process takes. Especially since for some of us, when we walk away from the buyback we wont have a vehicle and will be putting the funds from VW toward our next one. 

Can those of you who have received your buyback through EFT reply to this and let us know how long this took? also include days of the week etc. 

Thanks in advance!!


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

Chase to Chase so this was easy.

Turned in car 5 PM Thursday - Email from Chase at 6 PM Friday, bank holiday on Monday, funds in my account at 9 AM this morning - bye VW.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> ...I had to sign 2 forms, got my confirmed amount, and was sent on my way with the promise of receiving a payment email within 3 days. Took all of 15 minutes. A few friends of mine have already sold theirs back and said the email came within a day. We will see.


OK, update time - turned in car Thursday at 1630, Chase EFT email received Friday at 1730, money in my bank account as of this morning. Finally done with this mess.


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

Still waiting on my offer letter. YaY! :facepalm::banghead:


----------



## 2.0(slow) (Sep 8, 2013)

Another question: The buyback is complete and we received the money from Chase but our bank (TD) has yet to be paid. How long do you think this will take? 

Thanks


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Buyback 1/13- 2:30pm

Chase email- 1/16-11:11pm

Money in my account- 1/18

Loan paid off? Who knows at this point. I failed to realize that my loan payoff was dated 12/29 on my sheet. I turned the car in on 1/13. That's not a 10 day payoff amount. I can already feel my bank telling me my loan was not paid in full and no where near on time. 

VW is out of control with this. This is only beneficial if you didn't have a loan on the car.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

.yuk. said:


> Buyback 1/13- 2:30pm
> 
> Chase email- 1/16-11:11pm
> 
> ...


Loan payoff is supposed to be within 5 working days according to the FTC order.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

.yuk. said:


> Loan paid off? Who knows at this point. I failed to realize that my loan payoff was dated 12/29 on my sheet. I turned the car in on 1/13. That's not a 10 day payoff amount. I can already feel my bank telling me my loan was not paid in full and no where near on time.



It is on you to make sure any payments or interest in that time period was paid.


My payoff had a date of about 12/29 also, my turn in date is 1/30, I had a payment due last week so it was paid by me on time like none of this ever happened. 

Sure it was annoying to send 500 bucks of to VWcredit, but I get all of that back in 2 weeks minus a few bucks interest I would have paid anyway and don't risk a late payment ding on my credit.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

tomski12 said:


> Loan payoff is supposed to be within 5 working days according to the FTC order.


if its business days.

likely
friday doesnt count
sat/sun = weekend
mon = holiday

so at this point its been 1.5 business days or so


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

I only wish the car we want to lease would be available in this state (Bolt). As it sits we have no idea when we will be able to turn in the TDI.


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

SixpackMk3 said:


> Still waiting on my offer letter. YaY! :facepalm::banghead:



Today was the 17th consecutive day that I have taken to Twitter to express my joy at the wait: 

*@VW @vwcares @FTC Day 76: Wondering how many more days of looking at checkmarks before I get an offer letter. Waiting sucks. #TDIOwnersUnite*


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

Numbersix said:


> I only wish the car we want to lease would be available in this state (Bolt). As it sits we have no idea when we will be able to turn in the TDI.


Buy one from Keyes or Rydel in California.They do tons of out of state sales and blow away everyone's prices, especially on EV's.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

Green Hare said:


> Today was the 17th consecutive day that I have taken to Twitter to express my joy at the wait:
> 
> *@VW @vwcares @FTC Day 76: Wondering how many more days of looking at checkmarks before I get an offer letter. Waiting sucks. #TDIOwnersUnite*


You need to add a "SAD" or "WRONG" in there.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> It is on you to make sure any payments or interest in that time period was paid.
> 
> 
> My payoff had a date of about 12/29 also, my turn in date is 1/30, I had a payment due last week so it was paid by me on time like none of this ever happened.
> ...


Remind me again how you making your "payment as if none of this ever happened" has to do with the length of time it will take VW to pay a loan off on a car that is no longer in my possession? I am also talking about the email I was given at the dealer, at the time of turn in. Not when I scheduled my buyback date, like you are speaking about.

But since you are king of knowing everything about this, you probably know more than I do. 

You're totally right, it is ON ME to be sure my payments/interest were made on time while I was in possession of this vehicle. 

What kind of law do you practice BTW?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

.yuk. said:


> Remind me again how you making your "payment as if none of this ever happened" has to do with the length of time it will take VW to pay a loan off on a car that is no longer in my possession?


You posted a time period where you were still in possession of the vehicle and during that time (not the time vw took to pay it off) the payoff amount would have changed from interest accruing. So I spoke of the time period YOU did for fks sake.... why is everyone so quick to forget what they themselves wrote???

This would apply if you were trading the car in or selling it to a third party and waited too long from the pay off quote to actually try to pay it off for that amount, that is why it has nothing to do with this and would be the same as making a payment if this never happened. You could still be responsible for payments and or interest in those scenarios, like this one, despite no longer being in possession of the vehicle.

This has nothing to do with any laws and is clearly written that you are responsible for payments and interest right in the offer letter or on the pages where you schedule the drop off, possibly both I forget. :screwy:


As for what I do, don't YOU work for the company dragging their heals getting peoples approvals?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Winterkorn denies early knowledge of VW diesel emissions cheating*



> Winterkorn, pictured appearing before a German parliamentary committee, said: "I too am looking for satisfactory answers."
> 
> 
> BERLIN -- Former Volkswagen Group CEO Martin Winterkorn told German lawmakers he did not know about the company's systematic emissions cheating earlier than VW has officially admitted.
> ...


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

> Winterkorn defended himself by claiming he is no software engineer and that the rogue acts didn’t rise to his level.


Same as I said over a year ago, after two decades working in technology for 7 companies, half of which are internationals, I can say that I've never seen anyone make a technology decision that involved significant compromises that didn't get pushed extremely high. For a big enough compromise, there'd be a couple minute presentation that the director of IT would have for that project presented to the board of directors, which optionally included the CEO. Things like "intentionally break the law world-wide" is an example of a significant compromise that no tech worker I've ever met or heard of would do on their own.

It's literally the opposite of doing your job, since your job is to balance compliance, cost, and time to market. VW specifically chose to prioritize cost & time to market over legal compliance. Decisions like that can only come from the top.


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

chris86vw said:


> It is on you to make sure any payments or interest in that time period was paid.
> 
> 
> My payoff had a date of about 12/29 also, my turn in date is 1/30, I had a payment due last week so it was paid by me on time like none of this ever happened.
> ...


I tried to beat the system. My car was a lease and my payment was due on 12/7 and my turn-in was 12/16. VW told me there was a 10 day grace period on payments, so I thought since I was turning mine in at 9 days, I'd be able to skip that last payment. About a week ago, I received a letter from VWCredit saying I still owed the last payment and after a bit of investigation, I was told I had to make the payment because it was already past the original due date. It sucked, but oh well.


----------



## SoLo2pointO (Jul 12, 2001)

SixpackMk3 said:


> Still waiting on my offer letter. YaY! :facepalm::banghead:


Me too!! :banghead: I did get an email from VWoA on 1/16, subject line 'Claim Update'. It reads as follows:



VW email said:


> We are contacting you with an update on your claim status. There is only one remaining step before Volkswagen can extend an offer to you for your claim xxxxxx. Volkswagen Group of America, Inc. must obtain the current outstanding payoff amount of your existing loan.
> 
> This information is needed to generate an offer letter for your review, and for validation purposes must come directly from your lender. Depending on the lender, the process may require your direct involvement.
> 
> ...


So I'm like WTF, my financial consent document has been APPROVED since 11/1/2016. Called my bank, informed them that if VW wishes to get a payoff amount, they are free to do so. She said they added a 'note' on my account that said I gave them approval to release info to VW, so we'll see if that shakes anything loose. I've had a suspicion that my bank is a possible hold up since I have friends who use the same bank and also have no offer letter yet.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> You posted a time period where you were still in possession of the vehicle and during that time (not the time vw took to pay it off) the payoff amount would have changed from interest accruing. So I spoke of the time period YOU did for fks sake.... why is everyone so quick to forget what they themselves wrote???
> 
> This would apply if you were trading the car in or selling it to a third party and waited too long from the pay off quote to actually try to pay it off for that amount, that is why it has nothing to do with this and would be the same as making a payment if this never happened. You could still be responsible for payments and or interest in those scenarios, like this one, despite no longer being in possession of the vehicle.
> 
> ...


I spoke nothing about the time period or interest accruing while I was in possession of my car (besides getting a payoff quote more than 10 days old at the time of buyback. Sitting at the desk. I'm sure you'll go check). I am not responsible for giving the loan payoff at the time I deliver my car back. I am speaking about today. 6 days after giving my car back with an active loan still on said car. 

How do you know who is dragging feet on getting people approvals? How do you know who processes the approvals? Really, how do YOU know anything besides posting telling everyone they are wrong for 200 pages?

This angle of always being right doesn't make sense.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

SoLo2pointO said:


> Me too!! :banghead: I did get an email from VWoA on 1/16, subject line 'Claim Update'. It reads as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm like WTF, my financial consent document has been APPROVED since 11/1/2016. Called my bank, informed them that if VW wishes to get a payoff amount, they are free to do so. She said they added a 'note' on my account that said I gave them approval to release info to VW, so we'll see if that shakes anything loose. I've had a suspicion that my bank is a possible hold up since I have friends who use the same bank and also have no offer letter yet.


Oh, booo. They will not release the payoff amounts. What a headache that is.


----------



## SoLo2pointO (Jul 12, 2001)

.yuk. said:


> Oh, booo. They will not release the payoff amounts. What a headache that is.


So it's acceptable for VW to take 70+ days to generate a generic email attempting to place blame on my bank with absolutely zero communication in betwee? I was under the impression there was a 30 day window from when the documents have been approved (by a third party) until an offer letter was generated - sorry if I misunderstood.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

At this point I don't know what the judge is allowing VW to do. Seems like anything.


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

Numbersix said:


> I only wish the car we want to lease would be available in this state (Bolt). As it sits we have no idea when we will be able to turn in the TDI.


We were in the same boat. We punted and leased a Volt.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

Numbersix said:


> I only wish the car we want to lease would be available in this state (Bolt). As it sits we have no idea when we will be able to turn in the TDI.


even the OR dealers are kind of cagey when it comes to lease pricing. theyre very excited to get you to buy it though :laugh:


----------



## GTI 20v (Oct 12, 2000)

Green Hare said:


> Today was the 17th consecutive day that I have taken to Twitter to express my joy at the wait:
> 
> *@VW @vwcares @FTC Day 76: Wondering how many more days of looking at checkmarks before I get an offer letter. Waiting sucks. #TDIOwnersUnite*


Things take time. No one cares about your twitter pity party.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

GTI 20v said:


> Things take time. No one cares about your twitter pity party.


Isn't there language in the settlement that said they were supposed to have a 6-week target though? So if he's sitting at nearly 11 weeks, that is well beyond target. Negative feedback on Twitter helps to draw attention to the fact they have a customer service problem. If you never speak up, you can't expect the company to know that they need to improve.


----------



## GlhTroy (Aug 6, 2013)

GTI 20v said:


> Things take time. No one cares about your twitter pity party.


No one cares for your **** attitude, beat it kid.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

GTI 20v said:


> Things take time. No one cares about your twitter pity party.


I am not looking for pity. I never asked for pity. I am looking for a check for my Golf which has been sitting idly waiting for 77 days since I received an email stating my documents were in order. 



AZGolf said:


> Isn't there language in the settlement that said they were supposed to have a 6-week target though? So if he's sitting at nearly 11 weeks, that is well beyond target. Negative feedback on Twitter helps to draw attention to the fact they have a customer service problem. If you never speak up, you can't expect the company to know that they need to improve.


And AZGolf, that's exactly the point. There seems to be no logic to anything about the buyback. My car? Well, that's just a joke at how long this is taking. My husband's car? Well, that claim was started *two weeks after* mine, and the keys were turned over on December 23rd, check in hand, deposited at the bank 15 minutes later, boom, done, nice and smooth. 

Also of note: both cars have clean titles, there are no liens on either, both had valid registrations, etc., and were our daily drivers (just in case someone wanted to say 'your bank messed up' or 'the car was already off the road' as a reason for the BS delays)


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

Green Hare said:


> I am not looking for pity. I never asked for pity. I am looking for a check for my Golf which has been sitting idly waiting for 77 days since I received an email stating my documents were in order.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have you tried contacting the FTC or the Plaintiff's steering committee? I don't know if they will help but given that the Plaintiff's attorneys are getting about $175 million in atty fees, they might help.


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

tomski12 said:


> Have you tried contacting the FTC or the Plaintiff's steering committee? I don't know if they will help but given that the Plaintiff's attorneys are getting about $175 million in atty fees, they might help.


I have not tried the FTC themselves yet, but I have reached out to Counsel. Their response was "well, they sent out about 44,000 offers last week, perhaps give it another week? If you don't hear back, contact us again." 

Well, that "hear back" date was almost a month ago, and they haven't replied to my last contact.


----------



## Eye Candy White (Nov 9, 2006)

I received paperwork in the mail yesterday about the fix (I own a 2015) - I was pretty set on the buyback, but the promise of little to no impact to driveability, performance, MPG's, while maintaining a 165K mile warranty on emissions equipment is kind of intriguing.

The buyback is obviously still a killer deal, but if I take the buyback, I'm shaving probably $7-8K off of the purchase price of my car.

Anyone going in for the fix or reconsidering?

I'm definitely going to shop the Golf Alltrack and LWB Tiguan this summer and see if it tilts us further towards the buyback...


----------



## shuko (Jul 24, 2007)

I got the same packet yesterday.

In summary, they're prepared to start fixing the newest TDI's in a two stage rollout.

Step 1: Reflash your ECU (and who knows what other modules.) 'shouldn't' impact performance, mpg, etc. Drivers may notice the cooling fan running more often, a different sound to the engine, and different auto transmission shift behavior. DEF usage may go up as much as 15%.

Step 2: Replace all major components of the exhaust system. DPF, SCR catalyst, cat, etc. "new exhaust is designed to last the entire 150,000 mile lifetime of the car." swap includes additional sensors, and OBD monitoring will be modified to monitor the new stuff, which may lead to the decreased ability of OBD troubleshooting.

Takers get an extended warranty on emissions parts. Warranty follows the car even if it's sold.

They also warn that if you skip the fix, that the parts may not be available later to perform it, or failed old parts may only have new style parts available.

They also state that if the driver has already modified a part of the emissions system (ecu, exhaust deletion/changes) that VW can ask you to undo your mods before they perform the fix.


----------



## Ricky Bobby (Sep 29, 2005)

shuko said:


> I got the same packet yesterday.
> 
> In summary, they're prepared to start fixing the newest TDI's in a two stage rollout.
> 
> ...



Sounds like an absolute nightmare and a never ending cycle of TDI's in for random emissions components failures, looks like more regens (cooling fan running more often a telltale sign), more DEF usage, more sensors, and more issues to me. Sure you have a long warranty on emissions components but how much of that time period will be spent at a VW shop needing a loaner, or worse yet, a rental car (all loaners are in service and none available right now sir LOL), to fix said new parts?

Coming from a new owner of an X5 35D which has had a new set of NOX sensors and a new set of o2 sensors at 42k miles, the last thing these diesels need is more sensors and more sensitive emissions equipment. I didn't have a 2015 (my wife had a 2014 JSW so last year of Gen1 with no urea tank), but if I did, I most definitely would still be selling my vehicle back - I thought these were the easiest to fix and had the least emissions of all 3 generations?

If that's what it takes for the Gen3, "if" there is ever something approved for Gen2 and Gen1, I can only imagine the complexity that would entail.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Eye Candy White said:


> I received paperwork in the mail yesterday about the fix (I own a 2015) - I was pretty set on the buyback, but the promise of little to no impact to driveability, performance, MPG's, while maintaining a 165K mile warranty on emissions equipment is kind of intriguing.
> 
> The buyback is obviously still a killer deal, but if I take the buyback, I'm shaving probably $7-8K off of the purchase price of my car.
> 
> ...


Financially, the better choice is taking the fix and the ~$5700 compensation. If you do buyback and then buy a NEW car (as opposed to used), you will lose a lot of that $7-8k savings to the depreciation inherent in a new car purchase.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Eye Candy White said:


> I received paperwork in the mail yesterday about the fix (I own a 2015) - I was pretty set on the buyback, but the promise of little to no impact to driveability, performance, MPG's, while maintaining a 165K mile warranty on emissions equipment is kind of intriguing.
> 
> The buyback is obviously still a killer deal, but if I take the buyback, I'm shaving probably $7-8K off of the purchase price of my car.
> 
> ...


May as well wait until next year to see what the real world long term affect of the fix is and then make a decision - especially if you aren't racking up more than the allotted monthly mileage... Your options and cash values won't change at all...


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

Seeing the fix for Gen 3 TDI came out on time, I'm kind of expecting the Gen 1 fix to come out on time, too.

It's hard to predict, but I think if I get the fix, I could sell the car for thousands more than VW is offering. There seems to be a healthy appetite for TDI locally.


----------



## Eye Candy White (Nov 9, 2006)

I think I still have to lean towards the buyback, after having driven the car for a while longer (at least summer, but potentially even summer of 2018).

By then, the car will have some 50-60K miles on it, be out of powertrain warranty, and likely needing some work (brakes, tires, etc.). We have two sets of wheels/tires now, so I suppose I should just keep driving this thing until the tires are all almost worn out and then sell it back. With the GSW taking different size wheels/tires, there's likely not going to be transfering of our winter set, at least not in the preferred size.

At that point, I'll get back into a Golf Alltrack or LWB Tiguan with a fresh warranty and tires on it (and hope that my roof rails are a direct fit).

The only thing that still chaps my ass is the clear bra/film I had applied to the entire front end of the TDI - cost me ~$1100 all-in for basically entire coverage of the front and some random pieces. Was hoping to not have to do that again on a newer car...


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Sounds like an absolute nightmare and a never ending cycle of TDI's in for random emissions components failures, looks like more regens (cooling fan running more often a telltale sign), more DEF usage, more sensors, and more issues to me. Sure you have a long warranty on emissions components but how much of that time period will be spent at a VW shop needing a loaner, or worse yet, a rental car (all loaners are in service and none available right now sir LOL), to fix said new parts?
> 
> Coming from a new owner of an X5 35D which has had a new set of NOX sensors and a new set of o2 sensors at 42k miles, the last thing these diesels need is more sensors and more sensitive emissions equipment. I didn't have a 2015 (my wife had a 2014 JSW so last year of Gen1 with no urea tank), but if I did, I most definitely would still be selling my vehicle back - I thought these were the easiest to fix and had the least emissions of all 3 generations?
> 
> If that's what it takes for the Gen3, "if" there is ever something approved for Gen2 and Gen1, I can only imagine the complexity that would entail.


and this is why having a gen1 car, i really didnt have the confidence needed... EVEN with the stout extended warranty... to override my and the wifes logic that we should just do the buyback


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

I fired off a "reply all" to the execs in my email from Monday, no reply, but 90 minutes later I receive my offer letter. Coincidence? Who knows... and it is still dated November 8th. Oh well. It's a couple hundred more than the initial estimate, maybe because I haven't moved the car? I'll be getting this back to them by tomorrow, crossing fingers on a good buyback date.

Docs approved: 11/3
Offer received: 1/20

78 calendar days :facepalm::banghead:


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

Green Hare said:


> I fired off a "reply all" to the execs in my email from Monday, no reply, but 90 minutes later I receive my offer letter. Coincidence? Who knows... and it is still dated November 8th. Oh well. It's a couple hundred more than the initial estimate, maybe because I haven't moved the car? I'll be getting this back to them by tomorrow, crossing fingers on a good buyback date.
> 
> Docs approved: 11/3
> Offer received: 1/20
> ...


Finally! Now I'm the only one left? lol I feel like the Geico guy when he gets a flat tire, I just want to yell and cry at the same time :banghead:


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Ricky Bobby said:


> Sounds like an absolute nightmare and a never ending cycle of TDI's in for random emissions components failures ... Sure you have a long warranty on emissions components but how much of that time period will be spent at a VW shop needing a loaner, or worse yet, a rental car (all loaners are in service and none available right now sir LOL), to fix said new parts?
> 
> If that's what it takes for the Gen3, "if" there is ever something approved for Gen2 and Gen1, I can only imagine the complexity that would entail.


In addition to the extended warranty, there is also a lemon-law-like escape clause, in the case that your doomsday-like scenario proves to be true.

IF the proposed fix is approved for the Gen 1 cars, it is a much less complex fix, because they are only being required to meet more relaxed requirements. If VW wants to sell any of the Gen 3's that they have in stock, they are going to have to be actually compliant, not sorta-mostly compliant like the gen 1's are being upgraded to.

I'd still want a lengthy warranty on whatever they end up doing to the gen 1 cars.

Although to your point ... I've reverted to plain ordinary gas engine cars, no turbo, no direct injection. That technology works.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Blonde Guy said:


> It's hard to predict, but I think if I get the fix, I could sell the car for thousands more than VW is offering. There seems to be a healthy appetite for TDI locally.


...wat?

I don't know what your offer is, but I got nearly $20K for my car (also a 2011 golf). How the hell do you figure anyone will pay a single dollar, let alone thousands, more than that? The car was worth maybe $15k prior to this whole thing. :screwy:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> ...wat?
> 
> I don't know what your offer is, but I got nearly $20K for my car (also a 2011 golf). How the hell do you figure anyone will pay a single dollar, let alone thousands, more than that? The car was worth maybe $15k prior to this whole thing. :screwy:


Especially if VW fixes and floods the market with buybacks.


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

Green Hare said:


> I have not tried the FTC themselves yet, but I have reached out to Counsel. Their response was "well, they sent out about 44,000 offers last week, perhaps give it another week? If you don't hear back, contact us again."
> 
> Well, that "hear back" date was almost a month ago, and they haven't replied to my last contact.


Contact the FTC. seriously. I did and freaking magic happened, same day results.


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

SixpackMk3 said:


> Finally! Now I'm the only one left? lol I feel like the Geico guy when he gets a flat tire, I just want to yell and cry at the same time :banghead:


It's okay, just because I've got an offer letter (notarized and returned) the wait isn't over. I just scheduled, and the first appointment is *March 9th*... so while I have a date, that is still 48 days out, meaning that will be (mental math here) a mere 126 days from when my documents were approved. 

And again for comparison, my husband's docs were approved on 11/15 and buyback completed 12/23. 

:facepalm::thumbdown::banghead::what:


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> ...wat?
> 
> I don't know what your offer is, but I got nearly $20K for my car (also a 2011 golf). How the hell do you figure anyone will pay a single dollar, let alone thousands, more than that? The car was worth maybe $15k prior to this whole thing. :screwy:


Same here. But remember that if I get the fix, I get 6.5K. So subtract that from the buyback number. Pretty close, huh? If I do the buyback, I pay sales tax on the new car. If I fix and sell, I pay the difference between old and new car.

I've been lucky selling my cars when I'm done with them. Plus, I'll get to sell at the time of my choosing, not the court's.


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

spockcat said:


> Especially if VW fixes and floods the market with buybacks.


Well, if they look like they'll do that, I'd be better off with the buyback. And then maybe buying one of the fixed cars.


----------



## VeeRsixx (Jan 5, 2004)

*buyback with damage successful today*

Hi,

Just wanted to post that the buyback on our 2009 TDI Jetta went well today.

This is for people who have minor damage after they get their buyback letter / offer.

After the offer arrived and was notarized and returned, my g/f was in an accident.. someone crossed the double yellow line on a 2 lane road. Police report was made, along w. 3 eye witnesses statements. The perp fled. Bottom line: the front grille including the VW emblem was broken, bumper cover broken, cooling fans destroyed, the driver's side front tire was replaced w. the spare from trunk, hood was mis-aligned, TPMS receivers were ripped out, and the ABS sensor killed all stability programs. I was able to keep the car drivable using some duct tape and wire ties.

The repo people had to take a picture of this and have it approved by 2 managers, but they let it go. Got the full buyback amount.

Sadly, I liked that car and would have kept it if d-gate never happened. It drove great.


-rob


----------



## BudPytko (Apr 22, 2012)

Green Hare said:


> It's okay, just because I've got an offer letter (notarized and returned) the wait isn't over. I just scheduled, and the first appointment is *March 9th*... so while I have a date, that is still 48 days out, meaning that will be (mental math here) a mere 126 days from when my documents were approved.
> 
> And again for comparison, my husband's docs were approved on 11/15 and buyback completed 12/23.
> 
> :facepalm::thumbdown::banghead::what:


What state are you in? My appt is also on March 9th. At Antwerpen VW in Maryland. Mine were approved on Oct 28th....Long time to wait for turn in and I'm not even driving the car...haven't been since July.


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

BudPytko said:


> What state are you in? My appt is also on March 9th. At Antwerpen VW in Maryland. Mine were approved on Oct 28th....Long time to wait for turn in and I'm not even driving the car...haven't been since July.


I stopped driving mine early October when I picked up the GLI, dropped it off at the dealer where the buyback is happening for storage on November 1st. I transferred the plates to the GLI mid-December as they were going to expire at the end of the year.


----------



## JOESELLSVW (Feb 13, 2000)

*Got the fix and the cash....*

I got the first phase fix done on my 2015 GSW TDI SE 6MT last Wednesday. E mail from Chase on Thursday night and cash in my account as of this morning. I was the first to have this done at my local dealership (Garnet VW Chadds Ford, PA) and they were great. 
So far I can't detect any difference in acceleration or mileage. I'm hitting the same numbers according to the in car computer over the first 92 miles. I will review each tankful going forward with the car's numbers as well as my own observations. So far so good! I really like this car and think that the fix is the way to go as I still have the option of the buyback for another year or so if I change my mind. Joe


----------



## JOESELLSVW (Feb 13, 2000)

*selling the 2015/16 "new" TDIs*

FWIW my local dealer said that VW won't release any of those cars until both phases of the FIX are done and proven...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

.yuk. said:


> I spoke nothing about the time period or interest accruing while I was in possession of my car


You did mention the time period between the quoted pay off and turning it in, that is relevant.

It is right in a post YOU made.. :screwy:




> How do you know who is dragging feet on getting people approvals? How do you know who processes the approvals?


You've made posts about the process and who is involved by using "we" to refer to the company that you work for..

So did you lie to sound important? or are you lying now to try and blame someone else? 






> This angle of always being right doesn't make sense.


And the angle of making crap up is to who's benefit? seriously? Are you actually saying that you'd prefer the wrong information continued to be posted? Sorry that is just fkn stupid.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> Financially, the better choice is taking the fix and the ~$5700 compensation. If you do buyback and then buy a NEW car (as opposed to used), you will lose a lot of that $7-8k savings to the depreciation inherent in a new car purchase.


Maybe maybe not. Depends on what you paid, options, mileage etc.

On my 2015 for example they were saying it depreciated over 10k in 45 days (15ish moths for some). So even with that restitution amount you are still taking a decent hit on the depreciation of the current car that is not being made up for by that payment, which it doesn't have to cover so not saying it should have.

I put 25k on my 2015, goes back on the 30th, my buyback amount with mileage penalty is only a few hundred bucks under what I paid for the car out the door. As in it cost me less than 50 bucks a month to drive brand new car with a 33k sticker price. I couldn't have leased the cheapest car in the country for that. (If I factor in company allowance I made money )


For basically the cost of fuel and insurance I drove a car for 25k, there is value to that which easily offsets taking a depreciation hit on the purchase of a new car. You planned to take the depreciation hit anyway on the new TDI purchase, that will get wiped out for many with 2015s taking the buyback so really you are just transferring it to the new car. It isn't an additional depreciation loss. 


But I do think the value on the 2015s will likely level off at about the sept 2015 values in the near future and hold that for quite some time simply due to the limited number of cars vs the people looking for them. So there may be long term value in taking the fix and gambling on selling it later for a better deal than turning it in. Had my needs not changed that was the route I planned to take. Especially if VW repairs and resells the bought back 2015s, selling them even at discounted retail prices will inflate the values for private sellers.


----------



## SoLo2pointO (Jul 12, 2001)

SixpackMk3 said:


> Finally! Now I'm the only one left? lol I feel like the Geico guy when he gets a flat tire, I just want to yell and cry at the same time :banghead:


No, I'm still waiting.


----------



## SoLo2pointO (Jul 12, 2001)

Aseras said:


> Contact the FTC. seriously. I did and freaking magic happened, same day results.


How did you contact the FTC? Mail? Email? What email address did you use?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

SoLo2pointO said:


> How did you contact the FTC? Mail? Email? What email address did you use?


link to file a complaint somewhere on the page the FTC has on the settlement:

https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/cases-proceedings/refunds/volkswagen-settlement


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

JOESELLSVW said:


> *I got the first phase fix done on my 2015 GSW TDI SE 6MT last Wednesday*. E mail from Chase on Thursday night and cash in my account as of this morning. I was the first to have this done at my local dealership (Garnet VW Chadds Ford, PA) and they were great.
> So far I can't detect any difference in acceleration or mileage. I'm hitting the same numbers according to the in car computer over the first 92 miles. I will review each tankful going forward with the car's numbers as well as my own observations. So far so good! I really like this car and think that the fix is the way to go as I still have the option of the buyback for another year or so if I change my mind. Joe


I missed it, what does "first phase fix done" mean? Seems like it would make a lot more sense for them to fix it completely at one visit.


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

dmorrow said:


> I missed it, what does "first phase fix done" mean? Seems like it would make a lot more sense for them to fix it completely at one visit.


The fix for 2015 cars has been approved. A software update will be done immediately, and hardware changes will be installed later (presumably when parts are available).

https://www.cars.com/articles/some-vw-diesels-now-have-a-fix-1420692903815/


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

Submitted my 7 page signed letter at 3:50pm today. 

It was accepted at 4:47pm! Less than an hour to review and accept it! 

Setting up my buyback date now. :thumbup:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Over the weekend my son's 2010 JSW TDI wouldn't start. He called VW Roadside assistance who tested the battery (tested OK they said) and jumped the car. It started. He went out and bought a jumper pack at WalMart. He then had to use it to start the car later that day. Then the next day the jumper pack wouldn't even start the car. 

His turn in date is on 1/27. Told him to get a regular charger and keep it on charge until then. Otherwise, have it towed in and let the dealer jump it to show them it runs. No way is he going to spend $150 for a new battery for 4-5 days of use only to hand it over to VW. :banghead:


----------



## 20vTa4 (Jun 21, 2001)

spockcat said:


> Over the weekend my son's 2010 JSW TDI wouldn't start. He called VW Roadside assistance who tested the battery (tested OK they said) and jumped the car. It started. He went out and bought a jumper pack at WalMart. He then had to use it to start the car later that day. Then the next day the jumper pack wouldn't even start the car.
> 
> His turn in date is on 1/27. Told him to get a regular charger and keep it on charge until then. Otherwise, have it towed in and let the dealer jump it to show them it runs. No way is he going to spend $150 for a new battery for 4-5 days of use only to hand it over to VW. :banghead:


My dad's 2013 JSW has been sitting at my house for the past few weeks waiting for his buyback this Friday. I went out to start it this weekend and the same exact thing happened, my lithium jump pack couldn't even start it. I put it on a normal charger and the battery seems to be OK now.


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

Is it just me, or do others find it really bizarre that people are just parking their TDI's until the buyback?

I'm driving the **** out of my 2015! 45K miles and counting!

My return date is in March. I was going to wait till 2018, but things changed at home and it needs to go 

I'll miss it. But can't turn down this opportunity to had driven a brand new car for over 45K miles for free!


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Saggio44 said:


> Is it just me, or do others find it really bizarre that people are just parking their TDI's until the buyback?


I have several vehicles to drive. Both my TDIs are on the edge of mileage brackets. I have about 500-600 miles before I go over on my 2015 and I"m currently ~250 over on my 2012 which is why I pushed it back to early February instead of January since that gets me another 1000 miles and I'm good. That car was already rarely being driven since I bought the 2015 to replace it right before the scandal broke. 

Not driving them for me is not due to fear of damage (although the GF refuses to drive them thinking something will happen and I'll lose out) but because keeping them in the lower mileage brackets gets me another $500+ between the two cars.

I'm going over to my workshop shortly to swap my stock wheels and springs onto the 2015, it has a full tank of fuel so I"ll probably leave my A3 and drive the GSW for a few days. I also really like that car and driving it makes me not want to do the buyback.


ETA also many people bought their replacement vehicles already, I did but it is in pieces , so driving around their new car may be more exciting than driving their old one.


----------



## huskies90 (Nov 16, 2012)

chris86vw said:


> I have several vehicles to drive. Both my TDIs are on the edge of mileage brackets. I have about 500-600 miles before I go over on my 2015 and I"m currently ~250 over on my 2012 which is why I pushed it back to early February instead of January since that gets me another 1000 miles and I'm good. That car was already rarely being driven since I bought the 2015 to replace it right before the scandal broke.
> 
> Not driving them for me is not due to fear of damage (although the GF refuses to drive them thinking something will happen and I'll lose out) but because keeping them in the lower mileage brackets gets me another $500+ between the two cars.
> 
> ...


I am in the exact same boat except I only have 1 TDI. I am 250 miles away from my next bracket so I am making sure I stay under that before my return on 2/2/17 - not so much for the $$ but because I don't want to have anything possibly messing up this process. I was told when I called the 800 claims line that if my mileage was over the bracket when I showed up to return it, I would have to re-schedule my appointment to another date, even if I am doing EFT. I know others on this forum have confirmed that they just got $$ deducted, but I don't want to chance it. I also bought my replacement last month because I thought this process would be a few weeks not several months. So my wife and I have 2 other cars to drive. Another reason people aren't driving it is many are dropping the insurance on their TDI's until the return date. I did not do this but really should have since the TDI is not being used at all. Many feel that while it is a low risk, there is a chance the TDI could get totaled and if that happened, there is no buyback.


----------



## 2.0(slow) (Sep 8, 2013)

So our buyback is compete. But there is one remaining issue. We had purchased a $3,000 insurance policy which we never used. Our dealer gave us a number to call to cancel the policy and get the money back. When we called they told us they want a copy of the odometer statement from the buyback. The email confirmation from the buyback states the mileage. 

I don't know if they would accept that. Also, we don't have a copy of the odometer statement. I will contact claims to see if they can send us that. Is anyone else in a similar situation?


----------



## Phaetonchix_2 (Oct 22, 2005)

I went through the same BS with my 2014 JSW TDI. $200 battery was 10 days old when car was turned in. I am 100% certain my battery ended up in an employee's car. Dealers making cash anyway they can at the end, VW ripping consumers off by not adjusting the buyback amount to reflect the new equipment. Stealership didn't even run the car through the quickie wash after swapping out the battery.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Phaetonchix_2 said:


> I went through the same BS with my 2014 JSW TDI. $200 battery was 10 days old when car was turned in. I am 100% certain my battery ended up in an employee's car. Dealers making cash anyway they can at the end, *VW ripping consumers off by not adjusting the buyback amount to reflect the new equipment. *Stealership didn't even run the car through the quickie wash after swapping out the battery.


I disagree, they gave a more than good price on the car and even if you end up putting $200 into the car before you get rid of it the price was still a good price. That was the whole point of the settlement amount, no one really wanted (nor would it make any sense) to have additions and subtractions based on the actual cars value. In the end, two cars of the same year came in, owner of the one in really bad shape gets the better buyback based on the cars real value. No easy way around it and the reason system was set up the way it was.

Also, getting any car battery replaced at the dealership is a bad idea but especially on a car you just want to run for 10 days. This part was your choice.


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

Saggio44 said:


> Is it just me, or do others find it really bizarre that people are just parking their TDI's until the buyback?
> 
> I'm driving the **** out of my 2015! 45K miles and counting!
> 
> ...


I drive 34 miles to work each day, about 70 miles total per day. VW gives you a mileage adjustment based on just about half that amount. So every day I drive it I'm losing a little of the buyback. Not a lot but I'm already losing money.

So not all of us drive under 17 miles per day that VW is giving us...


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

spockcat said:


> Over the weekend my son's 2010 JSW TDI wouldn't start. He called VW Roadside assistance who tested the battery (tested OK they said) and jumped the car. It started. He went out and bought a jumper pack at WalMart. He then had to use it to start the car later that day. Then the next day the jumper pack wouldn't even start the car.
> 
> His turn in date is on 1/27. Told him to get a regular charger and keep it on charge until then. Otherwise, have it towed in and let the dealer jump it to show them it runs. No way is he going to spend $150 for a new battery for 4-5 days of use only to hand it over to VW. :banghead:


Don't buy a new battery - just buy a battery tender or charger. They cost less than a new battery and you can keep it for other cars after you turn in the VW.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Saggio44 said:


> Is it just me, or do others find it really bizarre that people are just parking their TDI's until the buyback?
> 
> I'm driving the **** out of my 2015! 45K miles and counting!
> 
> ...


we have several vehicles to drive. so for us... why risk driving the car in the event it gets totaled?

i went back and forth about keeping the car for a full 18months or so before doing the buy back. but i had already bought another car, which could easily be put into service by my wife as the TDI replacement.
so thats what we are going to do.

end result... in about 2 weeks, we will have the TDI loan paid off and $10k cash to put aside for the next house down payment.
it just didnt make sense for us to essentially make 2 car loan payments, 2 car insurance payments, etc... to stretch out the buy back.

honestly if i hadnt bought the mazda6 over summer the plans would have been different though.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

gcodori said:


> I drive 34 miles to work each day, about 70 miles total per day. VW gives you a mileage adjustment based on just about half that amount. So every day I drive it I'm losing a little of the buyback. Not a lot but I'm already losing money.
> 
> So not all of us drive under 17 miles per day that VW is giving us...


How much would you be losing if you had to buy a new car that depreciated more and got worse fuel mileage?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

gcodori said:


> Don't buy a new battery - just buy a battery tender or charger. They cost less than a new battery and you can keep it for other cars after you turn in the VW.


Battery charger didn't charge the battery overnight. Now he will try to jump it from another car. If that works he should be able to return it and let VW deal with it. If it doesn't jump, then he has to have it towed in and serviced to make it running. Since he is all the way across the country from me in the San Jose area, not much I can do but give him advice. He doesn't really have any tools or a lot of automotive skills though.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

spockcat said:


> Battery charger didn't charge the battery overnight. Now he will try to jump it from another car. If that works he should be able to return it and let VW deal with it. If it doesn't jump, then he has to have it towed in and serviced to make it running. Since he is all the way across the country from me in the San Jose area, not much I can do but give him advice. He doesn't really have any tools or a lot of automotive skills though.


I had a similar thing happen to me. I bought a jump box and it turned out to be a dud. So, I had to bum jump starts from people or call the VW roadside assistance.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

tomski12 said:


> I had a similar thing happen to me. I bought a jump box and it turned out to be a dud. So, I had to bum jump starts from people or call the VW roadside assistance.


 I bought this one: https://smile.amazon.com/Jump-N-Car...8&qid=1485295185&sr=1-5&keywords=Jump-N-Carry back when I was figuring out an electrical issue with my R32. Been pretty valuable since. My M3 battery was toast and this thing would start it everytime. Had to use it before we turned in the TDI as well and I brought it to the appointment just in case. Would recommend as not having to use another car is nice too.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Sump said:


> I bought this one: https://smile.amazon.com/Jump-N-Car...8&qid=1485295185&sr=1-5&keywords=Jump-N-Carry back when I was figuring out an electrical issue with my R32. Been pretty valuable since. My M3 battery was toast and this thing would start it everytime. Had to use it before we turned in the TDI as well and I brought it to the appointment just in case. Would recommend as not having to use another car is nice too.


He has a jump pack. That doesn't have enough power to start the car. It is a NO GO as the battery is toast.


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

gcodori said:


> I drive 34 miles to work each day, about 70 miles total per day. VW gives you a mileage adjustment based on just about half that amount. So every day I drive it I'm losing a little of the buyback. Not a lot but I'm already losing money.
> 
> So not all of us drive under 17 miles per day that VW is giving us...



This cracks me up cause i drive 120+ miles a day 6 days a week. I have 4 cars at home and none of them get anywhere near 30+ mpg, besides the TDI which is averaging 48 mpg.

My thoughts are,
1) Drive the car that gets the best mpg saves you money
2) Use the tires on the car that's being driven for free
3) Use the Brakes on the car that's being driven for free
4) Get all the paint and rock chips on the car that's being driven for free
5) No risk parking lot door dings on the car that's being driven for free

You see where I'm going with this...

Lots of people worrying about mileage adjustment when time comes to do the buyback. :facepalm: WE ARE DRIVING THESE CARS FOR FREE!

Only thing that sucks with my car is I just spent $800 on the 40K service.... not getting that money back, or am i....

my car will have 50K miles on it in March when i do the buyback. and I'm getting $30,600! Its a 2015! That's $1000 more than I paid when new.

Not all will agree with my theory, just thought I'd give my point of view with this very strange debacle we are all dealing with.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

spockcat said:


> He has a jump pack. That doesn't have enough power to start the car. It is a NO GO as the battery is toast.


Car won't jump start off another car, charger and jumper pack. The dealer wants $230 to put in a new battery. If I was out there I'd put in a $100 WalMart battery for him. You only need a single wrench and socket with extension to do it. All for a turnback in 3 days. :banghead:


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Saggio44 said:


> This cracks me up cause i drive 120+ miles a day 6 days a week. I have 4 cars at home and none of them get anywhere near 30+ mpg, besides the TDI which is averaging 48 mpg.
> 
> My thoughts are,
> 1) Drive the car that gets the best mpg saves you money
> ...


no you have the right idea.
people just get stuck on the money that comes off the offer amount, instead of focusing on all the free or nearly free driving they will get to do.

as above. we probably should keep the TDI till late 2018. but once you consider payments on a second car as well, the 'free' side of the equation has less pull. if the mazda were paid off, we would have a different outlook.


----------



## Gabriel J (Oct 5, 2000)

spockcat said:


> Car won't jump start off another car, charger and jumper pack. The dealer wants $230 to put in a new battery. If I was out there I'd put in a $100 WalMart battery for him. You only need a single wrench and socket with extension to do it. All for a turnback in 3 days. :banghead:


If he can jump start it and bring it to a parts store, they will throw the battery in free of charge. Something like an Autozone or Advanceauto should carry a battery for way less than the dealer.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Gabriel J said:


> If he can jump start it and bring it to a parts store, they will throw the battery in free of charge. Something like an Autozone or Advanceauto should carry a battery for way less than the dealer.


you might be surprised.

i have found in previous TDI's that the dealer batteries were cheaper OR within $5 of parts store prices. 
even better if you happen to have one of the parts dept coupons.

AND the dealer always had one in stock, parts stores often did not stock the size the car needed.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Gabriel J said:


> If he can jump start it and bring it to a parts store, they will throw the battery in free of charge. Something like an Autozone or Advanceauto should carry a battery for way less than the dealer.


Won't start. Was on a 15 amp charger overnight. Was on a 15 amp charger and jumper cables to a running vehicle. No start. Was on a 15 amp charger, a decent size jumper pack and jumper cables to a running vehicle. No start.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

spockcat said:


> Won't start. Was on a 15 amp charger overnight. Was on a 15 amp charger and jumper cables to a running vehicle. No start. Was on a 15 amp charger, a decent size jumper pack and jumper cables to a running vehicle. No start.


Remove the battery and drop it 6" or so onto concrete 3 or 4 times. Sometimes you can make a battery work pretty well doing that, at least for a short time, and that's all you need. 

I'd say you have about a 10-20% chance it'll work, but hey, why not give it a shot?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Air and water do mix said:


> Remove the battery and drop it 6" or so onto concrete 3 or 4 times. Sometimes you can make a battery work pretty well doing that, at least for a short time, and that's all you need.
> 
> I'd say you have about a 10-20% chance it'll work, but hey, why not give it a shot?


If he was willing to try to take the battery out himself, had the time and tools to do so (I don't recall what I put into a tool box for him when he moved from CT to CA 6 years ago to start his PhD program), he could buy a WalMart battery for $100 and do it himself. I even forwarded him a youtube video on changing the battery in a 2011 Jetta TDI.


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

dunhamjr said:


> no you have the right idea.
> people just get stuck on the money that comes off the offer amount, instead of focusing on all the free or nearly free driving they will get to do.
> 
> as above. we probably should keep the TDI till late 2018. but once you consider payments on a second car as well, the 'free' side of the equation has less pull. if the mazda were paid off, we would have a different outlook.


Completely understand the 2nd car payment scenario. 

I'll be sad to see her go.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

This morning, I passed a truckload of TDI's headed off to their final destination...wherever that is.

Sad to see that reality, and to realize ours will be joining them in a few months' time.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

So our TDI #Dieselgate saga is officially and completely done. Got the check from the State of Arizona for the remaining balance of the lic plate (personal tag transferred to the Subaru) and we also had a maintenance/warranty program thru the Larry Miller dealer group (our purchase and buyback dealership and they handled the refund process for us) and got a nice check back on the balance of that too. :thumbup:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> no you have the right idea.
> people just get stuck on the money that comes off the offer amount, instead of focusing on all the free or nearly free driving they will get to do.


Put 500 miles on my 2015, lose ~350 bucks I think.

Tires on my A3, which I hadn't driven in 6 years and finally built a new engine and change the turbo setup so its a hoot, were shot from sitting and needed to be replaced so the majority if hte recent miles were on tires being thrown out, new ones on last week. So some of that driving is just because it is fun and would be taking it anyway. Those brakes (calipers) are actually getting swapped to the allroad and will be replaced so not an issue.

Other days it is crappy out, I wouldn't risk driving either car that is getting bought back and the a3 is useless on those days so I drive the TT, I bought the TT for the sole purpose of cutting up to do an awd swap in my rabbit truck but in the mean time its a pointless beater. Brakes will be thrown out tires wil get sold on CL for 100 bucks whether they have 1500 or 1600 miles on them doesn't matter.

500 miles on the tdi would cost me 33.25 in fuel +350 in over miles. So that is about 380 bucks to drive 500 miles

500 miles split on the A3 and TT will be 70 in fuel - 350 extra on trade in so a profit of 280 bucks to drive 500 miles plus the value 



What was that about free driving you were saying?


I am semi safe on the 2012 but I really just don't like that car, it sucks compared to the 2015 and is boring compared to the A3 and TT. But I have been storing some things in the back that I need to deliver when I Go to winterize a building for someone and that is on the way to costco so we'll put 80 miles round trip on that without penalty.


----------



## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

Numbersix said:


> This morning, I passed a truckload of TDI's headed off to their final destination...wherever that is.
> 
> Sad to see that reality, and to realize ours will be joining them in a few months' time.


after being so ubiquitous here in the pnw, these are destined to be rare cars in the not too distant future. whod have thought.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> Put 500 miles on my 2015, lose ~350 bucks I think.


i think you need to look at the mileage calc portion of the agreement again. you do not lose $350 for every 500 miles driven.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> i think you need to look at the mileage calc portion of the agreement again. you do not lose $350 for every 500 miles driven.


I think you need to stop posting in topics you clearly do not understand.

I'm within 500 miles of going OVER into the next mileage bracket with a turn in next week on the 2015. Making sure I don't go over means I get another 350 or so bucks in a few days when I turn it in.

I'm already 300 miles OVER into the next bracket on the 2012, So I have some wiggle room here since I bumped the turn in to feb on it to get an extra 1000 miles allowance which now will put me under by a few hundred miles. I just really dislike that car now and "free" or not I don't need to drive something I don't like since I have other options.



If you are months out, don't have another car, it is cheaper to keep driving your TDI sure go ahead it does make financial sense then in most cases to just keep driving it. Not everyone is in the same situation I did the math, it is MORE profitable for me to limit the miles on my cars that are getting turned in within the next 2 weeks.


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

Hopefully not "yesterdays news". I actually tried looking this time. Interesting read if you were wondering where the bought back cars probably are right now.

http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-stas...ource=jalopnik_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

TheRealCaptainSlow said:


> Hopefully not "yesterdays news". I actually tried looking this time. Interesting read if you were wondering where the bought back cars probably are right now.
> 
> http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-stas...ource=jalopnik_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow


Hadn't seen it and I don't think it was posted here prior to this. Quite a sad sight.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

Hey I think that's our black wagon. I heard all midwest cars are going to detroit with an intermediate holding in Chicago warehouse. Although given the numbers not sure how many black wagons would have 35 rear/ 50 front tint like that.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

TheRealCaptainSlow said:


> Hopefully not "yesterdays news". I actually tried looking this time. Interesting read if you were wondering where the bought back cars probably are right now.
> 
> http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-stas...ource=jalopnik_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow


Guy who owns the building where my workshop is sells used cars as his retired gig. Has 2 TDIs being bought back... both bought wholesale so making bank!! Anyway he comes over all the time when I"m working on stuff to talk and months ago before any buy backs started said manheim had thousands of TDIs parked in a back lot. Couldn't get an answer as to whether they were just dumped there by everyone who had them in inventory or if it was VW/Dealer cars. 

He's kind of upset at the whole thing since half his business model was selling TDIs to DC commuters.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> I think you need to stop posting in topics you clearly do not understand.
> 
> I'm within 500 miles of going OVER into the next mileage bracket with a turn in next week on the 2015. Making sure I don't go over means I get another 350 or so bucks in a few days when I turn it in.
> 
> ...


yes in your SPECIFIC instance putting that 500 miles on your car in 1 month would put you over before you pending buy back. but if you pushed your buy back out 1-2 more months, you would be back to where you started... no loss on the mileage adjustment chart. VW is giving people 1024 miles per month. so if you push your date out a month you get another 1024 miles allowed before you trip the bracket to drop your buyback. each month you push out another 1024 miles able to be driven... FREE of mileage or vehicle value depreciation.

and you know this. so. are we arguing the same point??

if you decided to push the buy back till Sept 2018. you would have THOUSANDS of free miles to be able to drive your TDI.

i get you dont want to do that,, dont like the idea... or whatever. but the form of your post made it sound like EVERYONE would lose $350 for every 500 miles driven. maybe i just read it too quickly or literally... but THAT is what my reply was geared towards.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> I bumped the turn in to feb on it to get an extra 1000 miles allowance which now will put me under by a few hundred miles.


we did the same thing since we clear a mileage bracket and get an extra $540. Feb 4th vs Jan 21st... small small 'price' to pay for another $540 IMO.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Amazing seeing the photos, but not unexpected really...


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> Amazing seeing the photos, but not unexpected really...


yep. i mean we all knew that this meant MOST of these cars were going to be bought back instead of fixed. gotta park them somewhere. :laugh:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> and you know this. so. are we arguing the same point??


Because someone asked for a reason why a person might not be driving their TDI, I answered with what was clearly my very specific scenario and you claimed I didn't know how to read the mileage charts :screwy:


"Free" miles only goes so far, the 2012 is paid off but fully insured, the 2015 has payments and also has full insurance. keeping them longer means I paid more to try and get that extra couple hundred bucks it doesn't make any sense when I have numerous other cars to drive and can maximize profits turning them in at a time that optimized the miles.





> but the form of your post made it sound like EVERYONE would lose $350 for every 500 miles driven.


Yes clearly me speaking specifically of replacing tires on my A3, swapping brakes onto my replacement vehicle and having a beater TT I'm cutting up was speaking on behalf of everyone here. Seriously??? That is how you read my example? As speaking for everyone??


I guess I'll apologize for the unlikely potential of 1 other person with an A3, a TT, an allroad that is about to turn in their 2012 JSW and 2015 GSW that I might have misspoken on the behalf of.... Next time i'll try not to be so vague


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

"Mileage Adjustment Amount"

These amounts change every 5000 miles.

I just passed the 25000 mile adjustment. So i have just under 4000 miles to drive before i get kicked into the next bracket.


----------



## tomski12 (Aug 9, 2015)

Sept 17-uploaded docs
Oct 13- docs approved
Nov 19- offer letter drafted
Nov 30 - Bought new car - used goodwill gift cards that expired 11/30
Dec 12 - offer letter received
Dec 12 - Notarized offer letter uploaded
Dec 14 - Notarized letter accepted - made buyback appt for 1/10
Dec 25 - 8 inches of snow at Salt Lake City airport
Jan 5 - received a check for first years payments for new car because of greater than 6" of snow at SLC airport
Jan 10 - buyback appointment
Jan 12 - received EFT
Jan 25 - loan paid off

Woo-hoo!!! While I loved the Passat, financially, I did pretty well.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Saggio44 said:


> "Mileage Adjustment Amount"
> 
> These amounts change every 5000 miles.
> 
> I just passed the 25000 mile adjustment. So i have just under 4000 miles to drive before i get kicked into the next bracket.


Right good for you drive those miles :thumbup: Some of us may have 400 until the next bracket and a few days until turn in so a big difference if we went over and lost 100s of dollars. 


Funny someone isn't calling you out for speaking for everyone...:screwy:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

tomski12 said:


> Jan 5 - received a check for first years payments for new car because of greater than 6" of snow at SLC airport


HAHA awesome! :thumbup: :beer: (<-- maybe rootbeer because utah)


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Air and water do mix said:


> Remove the battery and drop it 6" or so onto concrete 3 or 4 times. Sometimes you can make a battery work pretty well doing that, at least for a short time, and that's all you need.
> 
> I'd say you have about a 10-20% chance it'll work, but hey, why not give it a shot?


He finally found the tools and time to drop in a new WalMart battery. With tax it probably cost $125. But the car now runs and should make it to its appointed hour of death tomorrow - 1/27/17. Such a shame.

--------------------------

Autoweek today posted an article about the growing seas of TDI sitting around in various lots. They referred to the jalopnik article. But in the Autoweek article they ended with this;



> Yet the crusher is exactly where these cars are all headed if the U.S. government doesn’t approve some sort of emissions system fix. Even in that case, said fix might be too expensive to implement economically, so again, it’s off to the crusher.
> *
> It doesn’t seem like VW could legally give these things away to owners of decades-old, heavily polluting cars, even if it wanted to -- something to think about next time an extra-ratty smoke-belching (yet perfectly legal) Pontiac Sunfire wheezes its way down your street.*


Seems to me that trading the cars to people who are currently driving old, high polluting, gas guzzlers would be a great solution (although a bit complicated to manage and enforce). I can't believe that a 30 year old Detroit crapbox pollutes less than a 2-4 year old TDI. Although I'm sure someone will tell me otherwise.


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

I recall reading reports that today (January 27, 2017) is the deadline for VW to submit a plan for fixing the generation 1 TDIs (2-liter USA cars). Does anyone know when the details of this plan, if it exists, will be made public? Does it need to go through a review and/or testing process first?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

VW dealer just called, said lots of cancellations and wanted to see if I Was still coming or possibly wanted to come drop off the 2015 now.

Still have my rack and wheels on it, heck there is a ladder tied to it from weeks ago when I drove it last :laugh: So between needing to remove all that and the GF being in court all day I had to decline but now dropping it off at noon tomorrow instead of monday night :thumbup:

Gonna see if I can unofficially bump the 2012 turn in to the 1st from the 6th while I'm there but I'm guessing it is just a bunch of last days of the month cancellations with people realizing they used too many "free" miles.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> VW dealer just called, said lots of cancellations and wanted to see if I Was still coming or possibly wanted to come drop off the 2015 now.
> 
> Still have my rack and wheels on it, heck there is a ladder tied to it from weeks ago when I drove it last :laugh: So between needing to remove all that and the GF being in court all day I had to decline but now dropping it off at noon tomorrow instead of monday night :thumbup:
> 
> Gonna see if I can unofficially bump the 2012 turn in to the 1st from the 6th while I'm there but I'm guessing it is just a bunch of last days of the month cancellations with people realizing they used too many "free" miles.


Maybe 2015 owners who are changing their minds when the gen 3 fix came out.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

spockcat said:


> Maybe 2015 owners who are changing their minds when the gen 3 fix came out.


that seems reasonable. however, if they were THAT on the fence, when not just have a delayed buyback set to begin with to allow for VW to get the fix out.

people are funny that way i guess. 
"all or nothing, they can buy this cheating bucket back asap! oh a new option? well maybe i will do that instead."


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

spockcat said:


> Seems to me that trading the cars to people who are currently driving old, high polluting, gas guzzlers would be a great solution (although a bit complicated to manage and enforce). I can't believe that a 30 year old Detroit crapbox pollutes less than a 2-4 year old TDI. Although I'm sure someone will tell me otherwise.


Remember how so many people were whining about the "Cash for Clunkers" deal many years ago?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

DUBPL8 said:


> Remember how so many people were whining about the "Cash for Clunkers" deal many years ago?


Whining about the tax break/government rebate? Or whining about how some good/rare cars were getting scrapped?


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

julianv said:


> I recall reading reports that today (January 27, 2017) is the deadline for VW to submit a plan for fixing the generation 1 TDIs (2-liter USA cars). Does anyone know when the details of this plan, if it exists, will be made public? Does it need to go through a review and/or testing process first?


No news that I've seen. 

But yes, it needs to go through a lot of testing before we'll know anything. If they even submitted anything that is.....


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

Finally got my offer letter today!!! 

All docs approved 11/22
Re-approved registration 1/11
Offer letter 1/28

I'll be sending that crap back today so I should know a return date soon.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> Maybe 2015 owners who are changing their minds when the gen 3 fix came out.


Also a possibility actually thought I typed it but guess I was in a hurry and forgot :thumbup:. 

The scheduling page does remind you though that if you are going over your mileage limit that you can log back in and reschedule, that seems more likely than people switching to a fix at the last minute when its been out for weeks. But yes still probably some people doing the fix.

Cars back to stock, couldn't help myself and had to wash it one last time... ok quick waterless wash but still I love the white and had to see it all shiny again.

Going to have the turn in lady run the numbers on my 2012 and see if I was off or not, if I was I'll just use my monday appointment to turn that in if she can accept it then. If my numbers are right and I need the feb "free miles" I"ll see if I can get it in first or second instead of the 6th. Going to annoy me that I had the 2012 after the 2015. 

One final meeting of my wagons


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

Anyone in New England going to be turning in their TDI in the next few weeks that may be receptive to a wheel swap? My Golf is going back with steelies, but I have a set of 16s on my GLI and would like to upgrade to 17s...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Turn in was painless, other than her taking my LP screws which went to the special screw caps I had.. oh well easily replaced. Forgot my extra keys too, which she said everyone seems to do. I'm just putting them in the 2012 and will drop off when I turn that in. She didn't seem to care but since it didn't mean extra work for me that it would be appreciated. 

She mentioned that most of the turn in are 2-3 cars in the same family and that people with just 1 is actually rare for her, interesting to have that confirmed wasn't exactly a surprise. 


Also for anyone who maybe wants to unload it a few days early, they get the packets for each vehicle about 5 days ahead. So for my 2012 which was scheduled for the 6th she said call her on the 1st in the afternoon and she can see who has cancelled by then to let me know if I can come in for an early drop off. Tried to see if I could help a friend who also has two out and she said that since he is late feb she won't have the info for weeks so nothing they can do. Not that 5 days is huge but if anyone has a car being delivered and wants to get ou tof this one maybe a few days helps.


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> Also for anyone who maybe wants to unload it a few days early, they get the packets for each vehicle about 5 days ahead. So for my 2012 which was scheduled for the 6th she said call her on the 1st in the afternoon and she can see who has cancelled by then to let me know if I can come in for an early drop off. Tried to see if I could help a friend who also has two out and she said that since he is late feb she won't have the info for weeks so nothing they can do. Not that 5 days is huge but if anyone has a car being delivered and wants to get ou tof this one maybe a few days helps.


Thanks for the tip, I may just reach out to see if they can pull mine in a few days this way. If not, oh well, buyback will be 126th day from the email saying "your docs are approved"


----------



## 20vTa4 (Jun 21, 2001)

chris86vw said:


> Turn in was painless, other than her taking my LP screws which went to the special screw caps I had.. oh well easily replaced. Forgot my extra keys too, which she said everyone seems to do. I'm just putting them in the 2012 and will drop off when I turn that in. She didn't seem to care but since it didn't mean extra work for me that it would be appreciated.
> 
> She mentioned that most of the turn in are 2-3 cars in the same family and that people with just 1 is actually rare for her, interesting to have that confirmed wasn't exactly a surprise.
> 
> ...


Went with my dad on Friday to turn his in, the whole thing took maybe 10 minutes. The turn in rep says she's been doing 8 to 9 per day. I was amazed that not one salesman inquired about a replacement vehicle. This was at your old place Chris, Reydel.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

20vTa4 said:


> Went with my dad on Friday to turn his in, the whole thing took maybe 10 minutes. The turn in rep says she's been doing 8 to 9 per day. *I was amazed that not one salesman inquired about a replacement vehicle.* This was at your old place Chris, Reydel.


Hmmmmm... I suppose they didn't have good luck with folks early on in the program trying to sell them a new car. When I say "didn't have good luck" I mean "got blasted with expletives".


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

20vTa4 said:


> I was amazed that not one salesman inquired about a replacement vehicle.


Same a salesman opened the door when I pulled up, I just said here for a TDI turn in and he walked me back to the office of the woman doing them, never heard a peep from anyone else.

The dealer was actually quite packed, I've only been there 5 or 6 times but there were more people in there Saturday than the previous visits combined, a few walking around but most sitting in the sales offices. Guess good for them.



> This was at your old place Chris, Reydel.



:thumbup:

I keep meaning to swing back in when I visit family in the area, the guy who was just the newbie service writer when I last worked there is now the service manager! Seems so weird


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> Hmmmmm... I suppose they didn't have good luck with folks early on in the program trying to sell them a new car. When I say "didn't have good luck" I mean "got blasted with expletives".


A lot of things the turn in lady at my dealer mentioned almost seemed like they came from poor previous experiences right down to the loan payoff periods taking longer since banks are demanding paper trails via physical checks which is causing delays. 

I said to the GF that I found it odd that once I said I was there for a turn in no sales person came near me and that I wondered if this was made part of the policy.


----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

chris86vw said:


> I said to the GF that I found it odd that once I said I was there for a turn in no sales person came near me and that I wondered if this was made part of the policy.


Based on the anecdotal evidence we have so far I would say this is a solid guess. Since dealers aren't really involved with the recall at all except for providing real estate, it's quite possible the rule is "don't engage unless engaged."


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

It is indeed part of the consent decree that when processing buybacks, they don't try to sell you another vehicle.

You are, of course, free to ask them ... but they are forbidden to initiate the conversation.


----------



## rmchung (Feb 6, 2011)

GoFaster said:


> It is indeed part of the consent decree that when processing buybacks, they don't try to sell you another vehicle.
> 
> You are, of course, free to ask them ... but they are forbidden to initiate the conversation.


This. When I turned my car in, the VWoA guy said he had no affiliation with the dealership and worked for VWoA and that I would not be bothered by the dealership once the transaction was completed. If I did want to inquire about buying/leasing, then I would have to approach a salesman.


----------



## silverxt (Feb 25, 2006)

Turned in the wife's Sportwagen today. Was pretty quick and painless. 

I was amused by the kid that went out with us to get the plates off and make sure we had everything out of the car. He knew exactly what my SS was, that it had an LS3 and was made by Holden in Australia, but he asked my wife if her Sportwagen (a 2012) was AWD or FWD (??)


----------



## SixpackMk3 (Nov 28, 2008)

SixpackMk3 said:


> Finally got my offer letter today!!!
> 
> All docs approved 11/22
> Re-approved registration 1/11
> ...


Offer letter accepted today 1/31
Return appointment date is 3/15


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

If anyone has info about Canadian compensation please respond in the linked thread.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?8450841-Canadian-settlement-CBB-value-questions

Thanks


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

Get to drop my 2010 JSW tomorrow. 200K+ miles, DMF is making the sound, otherwise id keep it. Not tossing 4 grand into a DMF and DSG overhaul on a 200k plus VW. Spent all day ripping out my HID retrofit, 9wz, highline BCM, depinning the harness and putting it back to stock and removing my hitch and light kit and RNS 510. Leaving the steering wheel unless I can find something other than vice grips to drive it with.

Got my old biolines out of storage, gonna swap them on when I get close. Did some final hotlaps out in my back acreage today. gonna miss it.

In the middle of lemon lawing my 2015 volt too, so it's been a fun couple months.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Aseras said:


> Get to drop my 2010 JSW tomorrow.
> 
> In the middle of lemon lawing my 2015 volt too, so it's been a fun couple months.


Sucks, man. At least both of them will be gone soon. Any specific plans, or still figuring it out?


----------



## ryan mills (May 3, 2002)

*FV-QR*

I was going to read the 466 pages for an answer, but I didn't.... My question deals with my 2012 Q7. If it becomes a buyback vehicle, do I really have to turn it in, or can I keep it? It appears to have the first gen engine, or at least I thnik it does.... any way to find out for sure? Anyway, thanks!


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

ryan mills said:


> I was going to read the 466 pages for an answer, but I didn't.... My question deals with my 2012 Q7. If it becomes a buyback vehicle, do I really have to turn it in, or can I keep it? It appears to have the first gen engine, or at least I thnik it does.... any way to find out for sure? Anyway, thanks!


This is really about the 2.0t with only some passing conversation of the 3.0t stuff, there isn't a big 3.0t thread here that I'm aware of. 

That being said they will likely NOT require you to sell it back just like they are not requiring/forcing anyone to sell their 2.0t or have it fixed. VW has to hit 85% of the cars on the road so theoretically 15% of the 2.0ts may remain as is.

The 3.0T stuff likely is not finalized yet so you also may have trouble finding answers due to that.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

$$ for 2015 in account

Had initial drop off of 1/30 they called me last week and the drop off lady said she would come in on saturday for me to turn it in early. I think someone posted previously that there payment email was delayed until the actual turn in date when they dropped off early, I figured with it been a weekend and early that I had to wait anyway. 

I got the chase email sometime overnight on the 30th-31st, entered all my info around 8am yesterday (31st) and money was in my account when I Checked it around 8am today. :thumbup:

I'm owed ~500 from vwcredit due to difference in payments I've made and the amount on the offer letter. Will check with them in a week to see if its paid off. 

Calling today or tomorrow to see if I can drop the 2012 off early, if not goes back the 6th.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

My son dropped his car (with new Walmart battery) off on Friday. Money is burning a hole in his pocket (bank account actually) on Tuesday.


----------



## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

spockcat said:


> My son dropped his car (with new Walmart battery) off on Friday. Money is burning a hole in his pocket (bank account actually) on Tuesday.


What are you guys replacing it with?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Aonarch said:


> What are you guys replacing it with?


Likely a new Volt. Although a Cruze hatch and a Golf Wolfsburg are under consideration.


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

ryan mills said:


> I was going to read the 466 pages for an answer, but I didn't.... My question deals with my 2012 Q7. If it becomes a buyback vehicle, do I really have to turn it in, or can I keep it? It appears to have the first gen engine, or at least I thnik it does.... any way to find out for sure? Anyway, thanks!


You'll be able to keep it. If you want the restitution money you have to complete the fix. By the time they get to the q7 settlement and buyback, you might be amazed at how much more your q7 will be worth as a buyback and not a trade in.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

ryan mills said:


> I was going to read the 466 pages for an answer, but I didn't.... My question deals with my 2012 Q7. If it becomes a buyback vehicle, do I really have to turn it in, or can I keep it? It appears to have the first gen engine, or at least I thnik it does.... any way to find out for sure? Anyway, thanks!


Getting closer:
*
VW, Bosch agree to pay $1.6 billion to settle U.S. diesel claims*



> WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen Group and Robert Bosch have agreed to pay at least $1.6 billion to fix or buy back and compensate owners of VW, Audi and Porsche cars diesel engines rigged to cheat pollution tests.
> 
> The settlement is the last major hurdle to Volkswagen moving beyond its emissions scandal, though it still faces suits from some U.S. states and investors.
> 
> ...


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

And mines done. Swapped my tires in the parking lot. Battery was totally shot had to use a jump box to start it. they didn't care about either. They had a jmp box in the office so many tdi won't start when they go to move them. 

They took pics while I took off my plate, signed the papers and got my confirmation email on the spot.


----------



## Astronaut3000 (Sep 9, 2002)

"Owners of 3.0-liter vehicles who opt for fixes will get compensation of between $7,000 and $16,000 from VW if emissions fixes are approved in a timely fashion -- and the automaker will pay another $500 if the fix affects a vehicle's performance. Owners who opt for a buyback will get $7,500 on top of the value of the vehicle. *(So - like the 2L buyback - pre-scandal book value, right?)*

Under the agreement, Bosch will pay $163.3 million to address 2.0-liter vehicle claims, with most owners getting $350 each, while 3.0-liter owners will split $113.3 million. Most 3.0-liter owners will receive $1,500 from Bosch."

Sheeeeeeiiiit.. Who do I talk to at Bosch to get my $1850?!


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Astronaut3000 said:


> "Owners of 3.0-liter vehicles who opt for fixes will get compensation of between $7,000 and $16,000 from VW if emissions fixes are approved in a timely fashion -- and the automaker will pay another $500 if the fix affects a vehicle's performance. Owners who opt for a buyback will get $7,500 on top of the value of the vehicle. *(So - like the 2L buyback - pre-scandal book value, right?)*
> 
> *Under the agreement, Bosch will pay $163.3 million to address 2.0-liter vehicle claims, with most owners getting $350 each, while 3.0-liter owners will split $113.3 million. Most 3.0-liter owners will receive $1,500 from Bosch."
> 
> Sheeeeeeiiiit.. Who do I talk to at Bosch to get my $1850?*!


I bet it's handed off from VW records and will be sent to the info as provided in the paperwork we all have submitted but that will be nice to get a little more $$$


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

ryan mills said:


> I was going to read the 466 pages for an answer, but I didn't.... My question deals with my 2012 Q7. If it becomes a buyback vehicle, do I really have to turn it in, or can I keep it? It appears to have the first gen engine, or at least I thnik it does.... any way to find out for sure? Anyway, thanks!


From what came to light today, it appears that your two choices will be to keep driving and do nothing and get nothing, or let them buy it back. It looks like VW is not going to attempt to fix those.

The "do nothing" option, I wouldn't suggest. It's pretty likely that VW will discontinue replacement parts for un-fixed models (they've already stated as much for the 4 cylinder vehicles) and in your case, there aren't going to be any fixed models. They want to get these vehicles off the road ...

If you like the car, go ahead and keep driving it, but (when it becomes possible) submit your paperwork for the buyback and stick that in your back pocket. When it starts getting to be towards the deadline (we don't know what this will be for the 3.0 models but it's likely to be late 2018 as it is for the 4 cylinders, it could be later since the 3.0 program is starting later) then schedule your date. If something starts acting up with the vehicle in the meantime ... schedule your date.


----------



## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

spockcat said:


> Likely a new Volt. Although a Cruze hatch and a Golf Wolfsburg are under consideration.


I'd grab a Volt. Any tax incentives right now?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Aonarch said:


> I'd grab a Volt. Any tax incentives right now?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


$7500 federal and $1500 CA. But if you lease, it seems that you don't get it all applied to the purchase price. I've been told that you would only get $6800 by one salesman.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

spockcat said:


> $7500 federal and $1500 CA. But if you lease, it seems that you don't get it all applied to the purchase price. I've been told that you would only get $6800 by one salesman.


$7500 goes to the lessor, lessee can apply for the $1500.


----------



## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> $7500 goes to the lessor, lessee can apply for the $1500.


So it is pretty quick, or is the $1500 applied in 2018 as a tax deduction/ refund for FY 2017?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Aonarch said:


> So it is pretty quick, or is the $1500 applied in 2018 as a tax deduction/ refund for FY 2017?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


California is a rebate. I believe you apply for it at any time after purchase (within 18 months) and they send you a check.

https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/eligible-vehicles

There is $2500 for a Tesla S. On top of the $7500 Federal, that is $10,000!! Chevy Bolt is also $2500.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

The problem with these rebates is the purchase price of the cars is pretty much inflated by the amount. That's why resale value is so horrible for plug in hybrids. The Volt is a $30K Cruze that sells for $40K and is worth $16K after 3 years.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Aonarch said:


> So it is pretty quick, or is the $1500 applied in 2018 as a tax deduction/ refund for FY 2017?


It's a rebate paid by the state but administered by a private company. You simply fill out some paperwork, scan the registration, sales contract, proof of residency and income. It only took about 2-3 weeks to get submitted and approved, but it takes up to 90 days rolleyes to mail the check.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

bdc12 said:


> The problem with these rebates is the purchase price of the cars is pretty much inflated by the amount. That's why resale value is so horrible for plug in hybrids. The Volt is a $30K Cruze that sells for $40K and is worth $16K after 3 years.


Yeah, the Volt has no additional technology over the cruze  The market for these vehicles is different from traditional ICE cars. At present, it makes more sense to lease them unless you drive more than 15k/year.


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> Yeah, the Volt has no additional technology over the cruze  The market for these vehicles is different from traditional ICE cars. At present, it makes more sense to lease them unless you drive more than 15k/year.


Leasing does protect you from the hit on the resale, but residuals are pretty terrible too- 40% on a 36 month lease. I was considering a Volt or E-Tron but when I factor everything in it just didn't make financial sense in my situation over a comparable gas vehicle.


----------



## ryan mills (May 3, 2002)

GoFaster said:


> From what came to light today, it appears that your two choices will be to keep driving and do nothing and get nothing, or let them buy it back. It looks like VW is not going to attempt to fix those.
> 
> The "do nothing" option, I wouldn't suggest. It's pretty likely that VW will discontinue replacement parts for un-fixed models (they've already stated as much for the 4 cylinder vehicles) and in your case, there aren't going to be any fixed models. They want to get these vehicles off the road ...
> 
> If you like the car, go ahead and keep driving it, but (when it becomes possible) submit your paperwork for the buyback and stick that in your back pocket. When it starts getting to be towards the deadline (we don't know what this will be for the 3.0 models but it's likely to be late 2018 as it is for the 4 cylinders, it could be later since the 3.0 program is starting later) then schedule your date. If something starts acting up with the vehicle in the meantime ... schedule your date.




Solid plan! I was using the Audi gift card a couple days ago before it expired, and saw a 2.0T Q7 that was comparable..... I'm curious how it performs against the TDI as far as performance. If mileage is close, maybe it would be an option. I'm going to see if the salesman will do a rolling drag race against ours, just to see if has decent performance. I'm not too sure if it will keep up, since I did spend some of the dealer cash on an APR tune.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

bdc12 said:


> Leasing does protect you from the hit on the resale, *but residuals are pretty terrible too- 40% on a 36 month lease.* I was considering a Volt or E-Tron but when I factor everything in it just didn't make financial sense in my situation over a comparable gas vehicle.


Don't know if you are making this up or checked for yourself in some place/dealership that is giving you a bum steer. Residuals on the Volt are currently 45 to 50%. See people posting here with actual deals: https://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/39897/chevrolet/volt/2017-chevrolet-volt-lease-questions/p7


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

bdc12 said:


> The problem with these rebates is the purchase price of the cars is pretty much inflated by the amount. That's why resale value is so horrible for plug in hybrids. The Volt is a $30K Cruze that sells for $40K and is worth $16K after 3 years.


I was looking at both cars as a possible replacement for Golf TDI. Only the Cruze offers a sunroof. A Cruze hatchback with a sunroof MSRP is about 3K higher than the Golf TSI. Given how Chevy makes deals, it still might be cheaper than the VW.

If it had a sunroof, a lightly used Volt might make a good replacement. Without, it didn't hold my interest.


----------



## PlatinumGLS (Aug 2, 2003)

Blonde Guy said:


> I was looking at both cars as a possible replacement for Golf TDI. Only the Cruze offers a sunroof. A Cruze hatchback with a sunroof MSRP is about 3K higher than the Golf TSI. Given how Chevy makes deals, it still might be cheaper than the VW.
> 
> If it had a sunroof, a lightly used Volt might make a good replacement. Without, it didn't hold my interest.


Most dealerships can have a factory-style sunroof installed. One of my sales guys actually recommends going this route if you want a standalone sunroof without having to buy an entire package. Take a look at the Webasto offerings as examples.


----------



## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

renegadeofpunk03 said:


> It's a rebate paid by the state but administered by a private company. You simply fill out some paperwork, scan the registration, sales contract, proof of residency and income. It only took about 2-3 weeks to get submitted and approved, but it takes up to 90 days rolleyes to mail the check.


But you can't apply the rebate at purchase, or do some dealers allow that?

Basically I would want to apply the entire tax incentive during the financing as a down-payment/ incentive. 

Also Atlanta was the #1/2 EV city, until Georgia ended the tax credit last year.


----------



## renegadeofpunk03 (Oct 16, 2003)

Aonarch said:


> But you can't apply the rebate at purchase, or do some dealers allow that?
> 
> Basically I would want to apply the entire tax incentive during the financing as a down-payment/ incentive.
> 
> Also Atlanta was the #1/2 EV city, until Georgia ended the tax credit last year.


I don't know, I haven't seen that yet. I essentially did this on my own, by paying $1500 down out of my own pocket - then the money will go right back into savings when I get the check.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Blonde Guy said:


> If it had a sunroof, a lightly used Volt might make a good replacement. Without, it didn't hold my interest.


But a sunroof is just...

*checks location*

Ooooooooh, SoCal. That makes more sense, then.  :beer:


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

Aonarch said:


> But you can't apply the rebate at purchase, or do some dealers allow that?
> 
> Basically I would want to apply the entire tax incentive during the financing as a down-payment/ incentive.
> 
> Also Atlanta was the #1/2 EV city, until Georgia ended the tax credit last year.


There were a few Volt people who "leased" when the numbers were really good and then just bought out the lease immediately.

Instant 10K off the "price" and no waiting for tax refunds or rebates to worry about.


----------



## VadGTI (Feb 24, 2000)

Does anyone have an understanding of when a salvage vehicle qualifies for the settlement? For example, if I buy a car today salvaged on April 1, 2016 and bought at auction thereafter, is that a qualifying vehicle?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

VadGTI said:


> Does anyone have an understanding of when a salvage vehicle qualifies for the settlement? For example, if I buy a car today salvaged on April 1, 2016 and bought at auction thereafter, is that a qualifying vehicle?


You can go buy a TDI today and qualify if someone was stupid enough to sell it to you and not do the buyback themselves and IF IF IF it is not salvage, doesn't matter if it was changed to salvage after the scandal broke.

Salvage vehicles must have been already retitled and back on the road by sept 15 2015 to qualify. Cars that were salvage and put back on the road after that do not qualify.

I'm thinking about buying a salvage 09 and doing a Smyth truck with some of my buyback money


----------



## VadGTI (Feb 24, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> You can go buy a TDI today and qualify if someone was stupid enough to sell it to you and not do the buyback themselves and IF IF IF it is not salvage, doesn't matter if it was changed to salvage after the scandal broke.
> 
> Salvage vehicles must have been already retitled and back on the road by sept 15 2015 to qualify. Cars that were salvage and put back on the road after that do not qualify.
> 
> I'm thinking about buying a salvage 09 and doing a Smyth truck with some of my buyback money


Ran the VIN for the car I found through the claims site and it says it's included.

Here's what the settlement says:



EXCLUDED VEHICLES said:


> Owners whose Volkswagen or Audi 2.0-liter TDI vehicle (i) could not be driven under the power of its own
> 2.0-liter TDI engine on June 28, 2016, or (ii) had a branded title of assembled, dismantled, flood, junk,
> rebuilt, reconstructed, or salvage on September 18, 2015, and was acquired from a junkyard or salvage
> yard after September 18, 2015


This car was sold at salvage auction in April of 2016 and promptly received a salvage title. So, let's see:

1) Could not be driven under the power of its own 2.0-liter TDI engine on June 28, 2016 - It could and still does.

2) had a branded title of assembled, dismantled, flood, junk, rebuilt, reconstructed, or salvage on September 18, 2015 - It did not.

3) Was acquired from a junkyard or salvage yard after September 18, 2015 - It was.

The interplay between 2) and 3) is "AND" and not "OR." Plain reading of this means that a car that was salvaged *after* September 18, 2015 but was purchased at auction after that date still qualifies. Except I can't wrap my head around how that could happen. To be branded, it must have been sold at auction and re-registered, so how could it be branded and then sold at auction later. Am I reading way too much into this?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

VadGTI said:


> Ran the VIN for the car I found through the claims site and it says it's included.


Because the vin shows that it contains an engine that was cheating, the inclusion on the claim site is based on that and only that. This is why once you start a claim there is a waiting period while they verify that the vehicle does in fact qualify.

If you found a VW dealer with a car in stock and ran the vin it would qualify. But since the dealer owns it, they do not qualify. 

Basically that is not a test for this it is vin based only not title based.





> This car was sold at salvage auction in April of 2016 and promptly received a salvage title. So, let's see:
> 
> 1) Could not be driven under the power of its own 2.0-liter TDI engine on June 28, 2016 - It could and still does.
> 
> ...



There are other areas which lists some exclusion, for example the window where people feared totaling their vehicles between that june 28th date and the end of the opt out period had one as well, 

Also a car totaled today and issued a salvage title would not qualify, you'd need to forgo the insurance claim and hope it drives. This actually happened yesterday to the person I rent my shop space from. His grandson was driving the 2009 he is about to turn in and rear ended someone. HE just had it towed to the turn in dealer, proved it can drive and they said they can leave it. It would have been totaled by insurance had he put a claim in and been disqualified at that point.

Does your state allow you to transfer a salvage title to your name and register it without repairing it? or in this example are you going to repair it first and get it titled in your name to register it? You are required to show proof that the vehicle is registered at the time you submit the claim. The person I mentioned above had the titles in the name of his used car dealership and actually had to escalate his claims to the class action lawyers in order to get his 2 buybacks sorted. He's still going to do ok, but add up all the issues you have read about here and you might get to the total time he spent sorting his cars out just due to the title. 


Also I realize you are a lawyer but the Judge has already made statements regarding the intent of what is written in regards to the guy who stripped his car. I'm fairly certain he would say the same in this case since he used the intent of the very same exclusion to tell that guy he was wrong.


----------



## VadGTI (Feb 24, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> Does your state allow you to transfer a salvage title to your name and register it without repairing it? or in this example are you going to repair it first and get it titled in your name to register it? You are required to show proof that the vehicle is registered at the time you submit the claim. The person I mentioned above had the titles in the name of his used car dealership and actually had to escalate his claims to the class action lawyers in order to get his 2 buybacks sorted. He's still going to do ok, but add up all the issues you have read about here and you might get to the total time he spent sorting his cars out just due to the title.
> 
> 
> Also I realize you are a lawyer but the Judge has already made statements regarding the intent of what is written in regards to the guy who stripped his car. I'm fairly certain he would say the same in this case since he used the intent of the very same exclusion to tell that guy he was wrong.



The car is already fixed and registered in CA. I would be transferring the title into my name.

As far as the VIN registry on the class action site, I've run some other salvage cars and they did not qualify. Here's an example: 3VWPL71K39M334917 is a 2009 Jetta Wagon TDI salvaged in 2013. For some reason it comes back as Not Included.


----------



## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

VadGTI said:


> The car is already fixed and registered in CA. I would be transferring the title into my name.
> 
> As far as the VIN registry on the class action site, I've run some other salvage cars and they did not qualify. Here's an example: 3VWPL71K39M334917 is a 2009 Jetta Wagon TDI salvaged in 2013. For some reason it comes back as Not Included.


Now you have me looking...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VadGTI (Feb 24, 2000)

Aonarch said:


> Now you have me looking...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They've become almost impossible to find and probably even more so because of this: http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-hoarders-say-theyre-making-huge-profits-off-1791341120

I found a 2011 Jetta wagon yesterday for $11,000 salvaged in March of 2016 and it was gone in a few hours as I was talking to the seller. The buyback on it was $19k!


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

VadGTI said:


> The car is already fixed and registered in CA. I would be transferring the title into my name.


Your best bet is to call them then and find out. At the right price it wouldn't be much of a gamble even if they didn't buy it back.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

VadGTI said:


> I found a 2011 Jetta wagon yesterday for $11,000 salvaged in March of 2016 and it was gone in a few hours as I was talking to the seller. The buyback on it was $19k!


Did it have no miles on it and every option? 19k doesn't seem right at all. 

My 2012 isn't even getting 19k..


11k was private sale on a 2011 JSW when this broke in 2015, crazy price for a salvage one today.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> Did it have no miles on it and every option? 19k doesn't seem right at all.
> 
> My 2012 isn't even getting 19k..
> 
> ...


My son got over $18k for his 2010 JSW with about 60k. You must have a ton of miles on your 2011.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

spockcat said:


> My son got over $18k for his 2010 JSW with about 60k. You must have a ton of miles on your 2011.


82k on it. 

That is 16k a year by model year less by actual time considering I got it in 2011, so not high at all.


60k would be more unconventionally low for a 2010 than 82 is high for a 2012 when it comes to TDIs.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> 82k on it.
> 
> That is 16k a year by model year less by actual time considering I got it in 2011, so not high at all.
> 
> ...


Yes, he wasn't putting a lot of miles on the car. The miles would have been higher if his girlfriend hadn't gotten a car of her own to go to school and work with about 2 1/2 years ago. His daily commute over the last 6 years has only been 1-2 miles and he often would take his bike.


----------



## VadGTI (Feb 24, 2000)

chris86vw said:


> Did it have no miles on it and every option? 19k doesn't seem right at all.
> 
> My 2012 isn't even getting 19k..
> 
> ...



https://agrahamg.github.io/VWBuybackCalculator/ shows that a 2011 Jetta wagon with 82k and navigation gets $19,757 in CA.


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

I got just under $12K for my 2010 JSW with 201318 miles.

kept my roof rack, tires, radio, spare and oem HID and my hard won 9wz bluetooth module.

I turned it in with the original biolines and crap hankook tires it came with. the original tires from 8 years ago.










I kept the spare because I paid for it and because I had to sue VW to pay for damages from a blowout when I first bought the car because all of the tires were defective.

The only mod I left on it was the gti steering wheel and I strongly considered taking it and driving in with a pair of vice grips on the shaft.

I also didnt recode the lowline BCM I put back in so the entire canbus was farked and had no idea what was what.

The car ran and that's all they cared about.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

spockcat said:


> My son got over $18k for his 2010 JSW with about 60k. You must have a ton of miles on your 2011.


does that include the restitution?
seems like a lot for a 2010, although the low low mileage definitely would help the valuation.

the email with buyback numbers for our 2013 JSW DSG w/SR shows $20,900 with about 27k miles. this number is actually a little low since we haven't driven the car since November 30th, and will now get anohter $540 on the mileage during the turn-in appt tomorrow.

on top of that there is $7200 restitution.

So overall about $28.6k on a car we drove for 3 years.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

dunhamjr said:


> does that include the restitution?
> seems like a lot for a 2010, although the low low mileage definitely would help the valuation.


~$18,250. That is what VW put into his bank account. So that would include restitution. Not bad for a car we bought almost 7 years ago for about $8400 more out the door with tax and everything. Comes out to around 14 cents per mile in depreciation.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

spockcat said:


> ~$18,250. That is what VW put into his bank account. So that would include restitution. Not bad for a car we bought almost 7 years ago for about $8400 more out the door with tax and everything. Comes out to around 14 cents per mile in depreciation.


i agree its a great amount to get for the vehicle for all that time.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

VadGTI said:


> https://agrahamg.github.io/VWBuybackCalculator/ shows that a 2011 Jetta wagon with 82k and navigation gets $19,757 in CA.


Ah some of that is the 2011 and the nav then.

Mine is roughly 18,800 for manual 2012 with no roof or nav with the 82k on it but based on a December turn in so a hair over that with feb turn in and dropping a mileage bracket.

The 2011s had a huge jump for some reason, a larger one than any other year when you look at 2010-11 and then because of that 2012s had a smaller jump, smallest. So that is probably part of it.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Anyone else in CA who turned in a car inform CA DMV that you sold/returned your car to VWOA? If so, what address did you use on the paperwork? I told my son he should report the sale so he isn't responsible for the car any longer but the state is looking for the buyers address.


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

spockcat said:


> Anyone else in CA who turned in a car inform CA DMV that you sold/returned your car to VWOA? If so, what address did you use on the paperwork? I told my son he should report the sale so he isn't responsible for the car any longer but the state is looking for the buyers address.


All the docs you sign have this


```
Buyer Name: Volkswagen Group of America, Inc. Buyer Address: 3800 Hamlin Road, Auburn Hills, MI 48326
```


----------



## Blade3562 (Aug 17, 2012)

Saw 3 semi loads full of TDIs today. Made me sad ): 2 of them were all Mk7s on steelies. People are really trying to keep every mod aren't they lol. :laugh:


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Aseras said:


> All the docs you sign have this
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


Thanks. I'll let him know. I don't know why he couldn't find it. He said everything was by email. But I can't imagine there wasn't any paperwork.


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

Blade3562 said:


> Saw 3 semi loads full of TDIs today. Made me sad ): 2 of them were all Mk7s on steelies. People are really trying to keep every mod aren't they lol. :laugh:


wouldn't surprise me if the dealer is installing steelies.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

At this time of year, in this part of the continent, it would be quite normal for people to have their winter tires on, on an extra set of steelies.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Saggio44 said:


> wouldn't surprise me if the dealer is installing steelies.


That would VERY much surprise me, complete and utter waste of money on the dealers part to risk losing their franchise over? :screwy:

On the cheap end that would be 500 per car, to get 600 bucks worth of used wheels and tires? There is no profit in that to risk it. 

Especially if these were mk7s which likely right now will be fixed and resold. If vw is going to sell them through their dealer network and CPO them then they are supposed to be spec'd like new and that includes tires that VW approves/supplies as oe. So if dealers are throwing on a bunch of nankangs to save a few bucks, they will spend all that money again when they buy a car from VW to CPO and have to put approved tires on it. 



But did any MK7 TDIs come with steelies even, I thought only the golf LE did and all the S, SE, SELs came with alloys


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

chris86vw said:


> That would VERY much surprise me, complete and utter waste of money on the dealers part to risk losing their franchise over? :screwy:
> 
> On the cheap end that would be 500 per car, to get 600 bucks worth of used wheels and tires? There is no profit in that to risk it.
> 
> ...


I would agree as a systematic thing a dealer isn't going to do it. But perhaps a tech might get permission from a buyback specialist to swap wheels as a favor or something. But if I recall correctly the buyback specialist has to take photos of the car on receipt. So they would need to plan it in advance.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*VW sued by first major German customer over diesel scandal*



> HAMBURG -- Volkswagen Group is being sued by German fish distributor Deutsche See for misrepresenting a fleet of vehicles it leased as environmentally friendly, making the company the first major German customer to sue VW over its emissions-cheating scandal.
> 
> Volkswagen already faces numerous lawsuits from individual owners, regulators, states and dealers, many of them in the form of class-action cases in the U.S. This is the first case brought by a corporate customer in its home market.
> 
> ...


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Ex-VW chairman Piech testifies in Winterkorn probe*



> FRANKFURT -- Volkswagen Group's former Chairman, Ferdinand Piech, who left the company following a showdown with ex-CEO Martin Winterkorn in 2015, has testified to prosecutors investigating Winterkorn's involvement in the carmaker's diesel-emission cheating scandal, according to Winterkorn's lawyer.
> 
> "Winterkorn learned a few days ago of the existence of more detailed testimony by the former chairman, Prof. Dr. F. Piech," a lawyer for Winterkorn said in an emailed statement, adding that Winterkorn did not know any details about what Piech told prosecutors.
> 
> ...


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

Just a few more days until I turn in my car (Saturday). Have to say I'm pretty freakin excited.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

spockcat said:


> *Ex-VW chairman Piech testifies in Winterkorn probe*


I'll never believe Piech didn't know what was going on. And I'm no Winterkorn fan or whatever as I simply don't care either way, but I am well aware of Piech's iron-fisted, know-it-all ways of leading a company. To think he didn't know or even "nudge" engineering or Bosch in that direction strikes me as naive. 

Then again, I read the internet and could be a moran. :wave:


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

spockcat's autonews story said:


> after Volkswagen replaced the relevant managers with lawyers and PR managers.


Sounds fishy to me :sly:



Accidental L8 apex said:


> I am well aware of Piech's iron-fisted, know-it-all ways of leading a company.


I don't know what you are talking about, Ferdy Piëch is the most humble, down to earth, CEO to have ever graced the world of motoring :screwy:

Excuse me, I've got a polygraph coming up for an unrelated court case, and I'm working on my ability to lie under pressure :thumbup:


----------



## Blade3562 (Aug 17, 2012)

spockcat said:


> I would agree as a systematic thing a dealer isn't going to do it. But perhaps a tech might get permission from a buyback specialist to swap wheels as a favor or something. But if I recall correctly the buyback specialist has to take photos of the car on receipt. So they would need to plan it in advance.


I don't want to name dealerships or anything but I personally have sold steelies to a salesman working with buybacks. What they were doing is their customer bought a new VW and wanted to keep the existing wheel/tire package their diesel car had. As long as the wheels have a VW stamp on them it's no big deal. He was just trying to help a customer. (The customer had literally just bought brand new all seasons).

However I kind of see the tech swapping steelies out as possible. It was odd that all of the cars had steelies and not even hubcaps.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Blade3562 said:


> . (The customer had literally just bought brand new all seasons).


Meh so did I, think I picked them up the day before or on the day this broke....

Still went back on them had under 2k miles (possibly under 1000) on them. 2015 tires had under 10k on them

Stingy mfers' 



2012 went back last night, since it was for sale when the scandal broke I missed it less than the 2015 getting dropped off but still sad to see it go. Already want another TDI, I need a transmission for a customer so might pick up a mk4 TDI sell him the trans and then do an AWD swap into it with my TTs drivetrain


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

Saggio44 said:


> wouldn't surprise me if the dealer is installing steelies.


That's part of why when you do the turn in they have to take pictures of both sides of the car and front and back. To keep dealers from stripping stuff for backdoor profits.


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

Eligible Lessee here, just made profile and submitted documents.

Any info on how long the payment process is currently taking?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

DerSpiegel said:


> Eligible Lessee here, just made profile and submitted documents.
> 
> Any info on how long the payment process is currently taking?


You have a lot of steps before that

range of document approval seems to be a few days to a few months.

Then range of getting offer letter ranges from a few minutes to a few months.

Then once turned in paying off hte loan was taking a week or two now is taking 3-4 maybe more, since you are a lease that may be less complicated if through vwcredit, not sure.

The money to you is taking 1-3 days as it is supposed to according to the settlement.

I Turned one in on a saturday, actual turn in date was monday but thye said come in early. I received the chase email middle of hte night mon-tues ,money was in my account wednesday.

Second car I turned in last night at 5:30 no chase email yet today, which is odd.


----------



## shuko (Jul 24, 2007)

Returned the TDI yesterday.

Appointment at 4:30, seen at 4:30, out the door by 4:40.

The claims rep immediately hung a tag on the mirror that said NOT FOR SALE, recorded the odometer reading and moved the car a few parking spaces over. I signed two papers and was sent on my way. Within the hour I got an email from claims-noreply confirming the deal was done.

About where they go now, he told me what others have said. VW picks them up on trucks and takes them to one of a few vast parking lots awaiting their fate. He theorizes they'll put the emissions fix on the ones they can and auction them.

Like others, I've made an additional payment to VW Credit so they'll be overpaid. The claims rep advised me to call VW Credit and let them know what's going on - I'm not sure why.

8/9/16 Option confirmation via online portal
10/7/16 Both documents submitted (blue eyeballs)
10/24/16 Both documents accepted (green check marks)
11/30/16 Proof of registration rejected
12/10/16 Registration resubmitted
12/16/16 Registration accepted (green check marks)
12/23/16 Offer letter received
12/27/16 Signed and notarized offer letter uploaded, appointment scheduled
2/7/17 Car turned in at VW dealership


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

chris86vw said:


> You have a lot of steps before that
> 
> range of document approval seems to be a few days to a few months.
> 
> ...


Mine should be pretty easy, I'm an eligible lessee with a lease through VW Credit. 

So far:

2/6 - Account created, documents submitted for review. Compensation figure quoted. 
2/7 - Documents reviewed and accepted, now being checked for eligibility.


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

DerSpiegel said:


> Mine should be pretty easy, I'm an eligible lessee with a lease through VW Credit.
> 
> So far:
> 
> ...


Yeah "easy" come back in a month when they reject one of your docs for no real reason, wait 2 more weeks, file an FTC complaint and magically your docs get accepted, then you can schedule your appointment a few months out.


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

Aseras said:


> Yeah "easy" come back in a month when they reject one of your docs for no real reason, wait 2 more weeks, file an FTC complaint and magically your docs get accepted, then you can schedule your appointment a few months out.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

2/4 - turned in the TDI (saturday)
2/7 - got an email from Chase
2/8 - buy back money has been deposited
2/9 - now waiting for the CU loan on the car to be paid off, and for the CU to send us the payment overages.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Aseras said:


> Yeah "easy" come back in a month when they reject one of your docs for no real reason, wait 2 more weeks, file an FTC complaint and magically your docs get accepted, then you can schedule your appointment a few months out.


or not.
i had a 3rd party loan and put in all the docs, one time and one time only... nothing rejected.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

awaiting Touareg news... CEL every 6 months for breaking adblue system is getting old.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Ok good news for those of you with buyback cars on VW credit loans.

First call as soon as you can after turning the car in, didn't seem to be an issue for me calling 2 weeks later but she seemed to indicate sooner is better. 

They will put your account on some sort of special hold related to the buyback so that you don't get sent any more bills and you shouldn't get any late notices, she didn't say but going to guess this also means no credit dings for "late" payments.

You do not need to make anymore payments once you have turned the car in *IF* you call them and let them know what date it was turned in (they can apparently link up and confirm it) but you need to call and initiate it it isn't automatic from what I understood. 

She also confirmed that right now avg payoff time is 3-4 weeks so with payoffs being sent figure at least 30 days before a turn in they are aware that the amounts are off and that it is taking time to get the final payoffs sorted, hence the hold on your account and no payments due since that isn't really your fault. 

Assuming you did make payments and the payoff amount is now less than what VW said they are paying for your loan payoff they are receiving the full amount from the settlement. There is then a 10 or 15 day forget what she said hold to make sure that no other payments come in. Once that hold is over a check is sent to your billing address on file with VW credit, so if you were doing paperless and your address changed make sure that is correct. 


Other than 15 minute wait to get someone she knew exactly the information I was looking for without me even asking as soon as I mentioned that the car was turned in 2 weeks ago. 



That was for my 2015, 2012 went back this week and I held the title for that:

Turned in Monday the 6th at 5:30pm
Received chase email early morning on the 8th
logged right in away (after trying to figure out what I used for a password) and processed the transfer
Money was in my account early morning on the 9th. 

:thumbup:


----------



## SoLo2pointO (Jul 12, 2001)

Aseras said:


> Yeah "easy" come back in a month when they reject one of your docs for no real reason, wait 2 more weeks, file an FTC complaint and magically your docs get accepted, then you can schedule your appointment a few months out.


Ha, easy. I FINALLY got my offer letter on 2/9! That was only 101 days of waiting after my docs were approved (green checks) on 11/1. I email blasted the class counsel, faxed my payoff letter numerous times and finally got a response. Timing seems very coincidental, but hey, whatever it took. Now I have to wait until 3/23 for turn-in as it was the earliest available.

Has anyone used the free 3yr Roadside Assitance we got in the 'goodwill' package to drop the car off at the dealer?


----------



## fknlo (Jun 30, 2004)

Has anyone turned a car in on steelies since they cracked down after the idiots tried to turn in completely stripped cars?


----------



## 20vTa4 (Jun 21, 2001)

fknlo said:


> Has anyone turned a car in on steelies since they cracked down after the idiots tried to turn in completely stripped cars?


Yes, they don't even give it a thought.


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Just turned in mine this afternoon. Smooth process, and I even had the forms filled out on the PDFs and printed out with everything except the odometer number all nice and ready to go. Easy process.

I was a little surprised that before I saw the guy another saleswoman asked "while you're doing that paperwork, is there anything I can bring around for you to look at?" and "we do have a special discount program for our loyal TDI owners" and then afterwards the guy that did the paperwork asked "was there anything you were working with <saleswoman's name> on?".

I sort of though they wouldn't/shouldn't say anything until the paperwork was done. I took their TDI loyalty brochure anyway to peruse and contemplate, but for now I am laying low with no replacement car and driving our "3rd" car instead ('93 Eurovan).


----------



## fknlo (Jun 30, 2004)

20vTa4 said:


> Yes, they don't even give it a thought.


Awesome, thanks!


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

Finished my buyback today and picked up my replacement. It went very smooth, the lady was really nice and only took about 20 minutes to do the whole thing. Now to just wait on the EFT.

Said replacement -


----------



## jsmyle1%... (Jun 6, 2006)

TheRealCaptainSlow said:


> ....
> 
> Said replacement -


:thumbup:

Very nice....


----------



## Atl-Atl (Jun 7, 2006)

Hell yeah! ^


----------



## evolDiesel (Aug 11, 2011)

TheRealCaptainSlow said:


> Said replacement -


Right on! I went for a VF supercharged GTI after shopping used R's for a year. No more 40MPG for me lol!


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

*Piech refuses to testify in German emissions probe*



Reuters said:


> HAMBURG/BERLIN (Reuters) - Ex-Volkswagen Chairman Ferdinand Piech, who resigned after a showdown with former chief executive Martin Winterkorn, has refused to testify to German lawmakers investigating a possible government's role in the VW emissions scandal, according to his lawyer.
> 
> Piech, also VW's former CEO who spearheaded the carmaker's global expansion, gave testimony to lawyers of U.S. law firm Jones Day last April and to German prosecutors in Braunschweig near VW's Wolfsburg headquarters in December, his lawyer said.
> 
> ...


So I'm having trouble piecing together exactly what Piech said to who, but it sounds like Piech was happy to talk to US prosecutors, knowing that Germany has a non-extradition law with the US now, but he will NOT give the same testimony to Germany prosecutors. Still, if the information above is correct, then the top bosses of VW absolutely knew about the cheating since well before it went public. I still believe there's a good chance that it was Piech who used some sort of plausible deniability method to cause the cheating in the first place, but his refusal to testify is probably so he doesn't have to admit to that.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

My humor level at Piech trying to throw Winterkorn under the bus is insanely high. Why didn't Piech go public if he knew, or harass more board members? Because he (for once) did not actually think it fully through. 

Hopefully today, a nice white GTI Sport arrives at home and spouse gets his turn in date finalized. We will just float the GTI for a month or so.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

Buyback coming up next month. Goodbye POS Jetta-VI, tried to like you but you really are sad in almost every way compared to your competition. Goodbye Diesel, I won't miss the x2 factor on dealer service costs, or having to mess with fuel additives.

While VW did OK by us as a result of the settlement, one omission is a thorn in my side. Why didn't VW do anything to make it easier for TDI owners and lessees to get into a new non-TDI VW? Once you turn in your TDI, that's it, your done. Want a new VW? Head into the showroom like everyone else.

I called VWoA about this, and they had no answer or explanation. I asked my VW salesman, who also handles some of the buyback legwork, and he claims that legally, VW couldn't offer any deals or incentives for just TDI owners. This is coming from a salesman, so who knows if it's true.

Seems like VW giving the finger to some of its most loyal customers :what:


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

g-man_ae said:


> Seems like VW giving the finger to some of its most loyal customers :what:


while i dont necessarily disagree that VW will be losing customers by not offering an incentive here...

what makes TDI owners "some of (VWs) most loyal customers"???

nothing about a TDI purchase immediately stands out as a long time VW fan, or loyal customer.
clean diesels sold to a TON of 1st time VW families, etc.

also.
IMO. even if VW lied here. many of their "most loyal customers" are going to buy back into VW either for their next car, or shortly down the line... even without that added incentive.
i for one have been a long time VW owner, multiple TDI owner, etc. and a GTI Sport is on my short list of cars i would be willing to purchase new.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

g-man_ae said:


> Buyback coming up next month. Goodbye POS Jetta-VI, tried to like you but you really are sad in almost every way compared to your competition. Goodbye Diesel, I won't miss the x2 factor on dealer service costs, or having to mess with fuel additives.
> 
> While VW did OK by us as a result of the settlement, one omission is a thorn in my side. Why didn't VW do anything to make it easier for TDI owners and lessees to get into a new non-TDI VW? Once you turn in your TDI, that's it, your done. Want a new VW? Head into the showroom like everyone else.
> 
> ...


I would imagine there are clauses in the agreement with the gov't that specifically preclude the mixing of the buyback process and the dealer actively trying to sell another vehicle within the same visit. I'm sure it's there to avoid any conflicts of interest. Maybe everyone involved would assume getting burnt would have most sane people shopping other marques altogether?


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

No incentives for former/soon to be former TDI owners was a rather large *F/U* to us and for us ... any near future "modern" VW's will not even be considered for any future purchases. 

They really had an opportunity and blew it iMHO :facepalm::facepalm:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

AZGolf said:


> I still believe there's a good chance that it was Piech who used some sort of plausible deniability method to cause the cheating in the first place, but his refusal to testify is probably so he doesn't have to admit to that.


I've thought similarly for a long time. Do I know that he knew/instigated it? Of course not. Do I believe he did? I'm not there yet. Do I think it's possible? Absolutely! 

Like you I doubt we'll ever know, though. Unless he tells someone with a wink or some such.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Air and water do mix said:


> I've thought similarly for a long time. Do I know that he knew/instigated it? Of course not. Do I believe he did? I'm not there yet. Do I think it's possible? Absolutely!
> 
> Like you I doubt we'll ever know, though. Unless he tells someone with a wink or some such.


The guy is old enough that I suspect he's going to just ride it out and take his secrets to the grave.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> No incentives for former/soon to be former TDI owners was a rather large *F/U* to us and for us ... any near future "modern" VW's will not even be considered for any future purchases.
> 
> They really had an opportunity and blew it iMHO :facepalm::facepalm:


I once suggested to my wife (who's really pissed at VW) if she'd remain a loyal customer if VW took the keys from the TDI and gave us the keys to a new car. That was acceptable to her. Of course, VW never even thought of this, so here we are with a bunch of PO'd customers and lots of ill will toward VW. It will take them years to recover, if not decades.

The big question in my mind is this: Would the expense of doing a swap like this have netted VW more money in the long run or not? We'll never know, because they never chose that option.

Would have been interesting, though.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> I once suggested to my wife (who's really pissed at VW) if she'd remain a loyal customer if VW took the keys from the TDI and gave us the keys to a new car. That was acceptable to her. Of course, VW never even thought of this, so here we are with a bunch of PO'd customers and lots of ill will toward VW. It will take them years to recover, if not decades.


First you don't know that vw never thought of that, you are not privy to all of the possible solutions discussed.

Second there is nothing preventing you from handing a VW dealer the money from your buyback in exchange for a new set of keys. There is already so much confusion on the matter that people THINK they have to go buy a VW. Can you imagine the fall out if an option was get a free car and how everyone would think you MUST get another VW? 

There would still need to be some sort of set value for the buyback of your old vehicle, you have that value and will get that money. You can still walk directly from the desk of the buyback person and into the showroom to buy a new car. To say it or type it sure give them the keys to your TDI get keys to a new car sounds easy, in reality that would be a complete and utter mess of paperwork and people crying about bad deals on cars or dealers trying to sell service plans and warranties. 



VW sales in the US were down 7.6% in 2016 from 2015, they weren't even hurting from this for a year let a alone a decade.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> It will take them years to recover, if not decades.


Years, probably. Decades? Doubt it. VW had already declined from about 4% to 2% marketshare in the US when the scandal broke out. There's about 500k TDIs affected out of the 250M registered vehicles in the US. I would take a SWAG at saying this affects less than 1% and possibly less than half a percent of people in the US. With the affect so small, VW really just needs to reach out to the other 99% to convince them to try their new non-TDI VWs. They could write off all the TDI owners entirely and still have it barely affect their potential for sales growth in the coming years if they can ever get their lineup to match what US buyers want.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

T5 Dave said:


> I once suggested to my wife (who's really pissed at VW) if she'd remain a loyal customer if VW took the keys from the TDI and gave us the keys to a new car. That was acceptable to her. Of course, VW never even thought of this, so here we are with a bunch of PO'd customers and lots of ill will toward VW. It will take them years to recover, if not decades.
> 
> The big question in my mind is this: Would the expense of doing a swap like this have netted VW more money in the long run or not? We'll never know, because they never chose that option.
> 
> Would have been interesting, though.


I'm not a VW fanboy but this sounds silly.

TDI owners were compensated by being paid off more than what the car is currently worth.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

2.0T_Convert said:


> I'm not a VW fanboy but this sounds silly.
> 
> TDI owners were compensated by being paid off more than what the car is currently worth.


the 'payoff' that you are talking about almost entirely is eating up by the taxing and licensing of the TDI and then the subsequent replacement vehicle.
so no, really their isnt much of a plus side for many people in the way of LARGE dollars. some people DID make out, but they are the minority.

honestly the biggest 'advantage' our TDI gave us was a cheap car per month to drive for 3 yrs, after you consider the buy back value AND the restitution payment.
we certainly don't have stacks burning a whole in our pocket like we just won the lottery though.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> the 'payoff' that you are talking about almost entirely is eating up by the taxing and licensing of the TDI and then the subsequent replacement vehicle.


almost entirely? A 30k vehicle (high avg price for vehicles being replaced) would have an avg of about 1900 in taxes across the country. Are you actually trying to say that Washington state has 5grand in fees when buying a new vehicle?


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

dunhamjr said:


> the 'payoff' that you are talking about almost entirely is eating up by the taxing and licensing of the TDI and then the subsequent replacement vehicle.
> so no, really their isnt much of a plus side for many people in the way of LARGE dollars. some people DID make out, but they are the minority.
> 
> honestly the biggest 'advantage' our TDI gave us was a cheap car per month to drive for 3 yrs, after you consider the buy back value AND the restitution payment.
> we certainly don't have stacks burning a whole in our pocket like we just won the lottery though.


You don't necessarily have to replace the TDI with a NEW car. 

I'm seeing conflicting figures around; 370,000 or 425,000 buyback customers depending on source. Providing all these customers a ride ride is expensive and eats up production capacity. VWoA will lose out on lots of new car sales as TDI owners are compensated with a new Jetta, Passat, or CUV.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

2.0T_Convert said:


> You don't necessarily have to replace the TDI with a NEW car.
> 
> Opinions may vary but offering new car keys to 500,000 customers is a crazy expectation. IMO!


And there is no fair way to do it. 

Why does someone with a 36k brand new passat TDI with 5k miles on it right before the scandal broke get the same deal as a rebuilt former salvage titled 09 jetta with no options and 350k miles on it? It always would have come down to just giving a value for each car and then someone deciding what they want.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

2.0T_Convert said:


> You don't necessarily have to replace the TDI with a NEW car.


new car or another car, it doesnt matter... i will still have to pay almost 10% use tax plus licensing for anything i buy.
(and actually already have done, since i bought a used/lease buyout over the summer from a TCL member)


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> new car or another car, it doesnt matter... i will still have to pay almost 10% use tax plus licensing for anything i buy.
> (and actually already have done, since i bought a used/lease buyout over the summer from a TCL member)


oooh did we miss the thread with your 50k off lease purchase? Do tell what was this sweet vehicle?


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> almost entirely? A 30k vehicle (high avg price for vehicles being replaced) would have an avg of about 1900 in taxes across the country. Are you actually trying to say that Washington state has 5grand in fees when buying a new vehicle?


i disagree that $30k is a high average price for replacements, we bought the car new in 2013. many will replace with new. and average purchase price is HIGHER than your $30k which you think is high.

tax in my area is 9.5%... you can look it up if you want.
so lets round.

10% plus $300 licensing when we bought our $30,000 car.
thats $3300.

and lets say we buy another $30k car, because why should we be forced to buy cheap ass used just to come out ahead when VW was the one who screwed up.
that means another $3300 in t&l.

so thats $6600.
and our restitution payment was $7100(ish).

so YES.
the tax and licensing of the TDI and its likely replacement (for many people), at least in the Seattle area (and I am sure many others) comes out to be basically just getting out of the TDI and into a new replacement and not really coming out ahead at all.

which IS fine.
but some people are making this deal out to be the best thing since sliced bread, and thats just not often the case.

overall i am happy about the outcome. but let's not act like the majority of affected people here just walked away with boatloads of free cash once everything is all said and done.

edit:
correction.
9.5% not 9.6% sales tax.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> oooh did we miss the thread with your 50k off lease purchase? Do tell what was this sweet vehicle?


read my other reply. and be an ass less when you dont know the situation.

as i said. tax in my area is essentially 10%. two $30k purchases. thats $6k in taxes.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> i disagree that $30k is a high average price for replacements, we bought the car new in 2013. many will replace with new. and average purchase price is HIGHER than your $30k which you think is high.


Avg new car price for 2017 is 33k yes

However the majority of the cars being replaced were not over avg sale price when new, so you are the one taking liberties that this time around everyone's going to splurge and spend more than avg. Fully loaded over 30k TDIs are not the common vehicles on this buyback.



> tax in my area is 9.6%... you can look it up if you want.


The kent 3% is included on vehicles? If so that that is another semi uncommon factor in your very specific scenario that doesn't apply to most people.



> so lets round.
> 
> 10% plus $300 licensing when we bought our $30,000 car.
> thats $3300.
> ...



Oh you are counting the tax on the first car and then the tax on the second car.

Sorry I thought you were attempting to have a reasonable conversation among adults, not whatever this petty childish crap you are making up.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> read my other reply. and be an ass less when you dont know the situation.
> 
> as i said. tax in my area is essentially 10%. two $30k purchases. thats $6k in taxes.


And to you I saw learn to read time stamps before being an ass :thumbup: But now that you have what 70k car did you buy that you are applying the local 9.6% tax on and the .3% license fee to eat up your 7100 in restitution? 


The tax on the first car is NOT a factor here on the restitution, sorry you can pretend it is all you want but it isn't a cost associated with replacement.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> oooh did we miss the thread with your 50k off lease purchase? Do tell what was this sweet vehicle?


i will also actually answer this and ignoring the obvious, unwarranted attitude.

the lease buyout was Schnells Mazda6.
obviously not $50k. and obviously not even $30k.

so yeah i did save a bit of money there on the taxes, but that was buy going with a 2-3yr old car. a 2014, so yeah 1 year newer than the TDI i replaced. but not new.
as such we saved over new... but my DOL bill still came out to $1776.35 even with buying a much cheaper replacement.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> Avg new car price for 2017 is 33k yes
> 
> However the majority of the cars being replaced were not over avg sale price when new, so you are the one taking liberties that this time around everyone's going to splurge and spend more than avg. Fully loaded over 30k TDIs are not the common vehicles on this buyback.
> 
> ...


average new car price is an average for a reason, but i guess you want to say that MOST people, will really be going out to replace their TDIs with other used cars?

Kent is not the exception. at least not in WA. there is a base rate for the state and each city adds their own 2-4% on top.

did VW reimburse me for the TTL when i bought the TDI? oh no, wait, they didnt. ok then, so that TTL money needs to come from somewhere. i get your point. i would have had to pay it anyways.
so lets adjust my statement.
most peoples restitution is 50% used up JUST on the TTL of buying the replacement vehicle.
does that sit better with your sensitive sensibilities? :banghead:

i get you dont see it that way. but the money came out of my pocket. so its absolutely not made up. now maybe its more reasonable, as i said above to only count the TTL on having to buy another car when no purchase was planned. fine.

repeat of above.
50% of the restitution for many people will be eaten up by TTL.

i also dont see anything i have ever said to you sets you straight off into be a dick mode. you want to have a reasonable adult convo?? be one. i get that the internet provides you with a safety net of privacy/anonymity. but damn. you jump to full jerk all over the place here with little to no provocation.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

dunhamjr said:


> the 'payoff' that you are talking about almost entirely is eating up by the taxing and licensing of the TDI and then the subsequent replacement vehicle.
> so no, really their isnt much of a plus side for many people in the way of LARGE dollars. some people DID make out, but they are the minority.
> 
> honestly the biggest 'advantage' our TDI gave us was a cheap car per month to drive for 3 yrs, after you consider the buy back value AND the restitution payment.
> we certainly don't have stacks burning a whole in our pocket like we just won the lottery though.


edit:
i mistakenly added both tax events. not fair i suppose.

so instead of being fully used up on the TTL for the replacement. i concede, that for many of us only about 50% of that restitution is going towards the replacement purchase. still not insignificant for those who are replacing with new cars at that average purchase price.


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

dunhamjr said:


> edit: still not insignificant for those who are replacing with new cars at that average purchase price.


You mean those replacing their used TDIs with new cars? Seems akin to 99.9% of all vehicle purchases, minus the moaning.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Wednesday!


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> average new car price is an average for a reason,


It is, but the TDI was not an avg vehicle, driven by avg people. Go over to TDI club, people actually steal ketchup packets from mcdonalds to save money, those are TDI owners... not avg people. The avg sales prices of TDIs was also below the avg new car price during the respective periods in which they were sold. Just because there is an avg new car priced does not in anyway mean that is what people are going to pay for replacement vehicles. The avg of everything does not necessarily mean it is the avg of the the specific pool of people buying new cars to replace TDIs. 




> Kent is not the exception.


10% new car tax is very much an exception across the country.





> i also dont see anything i have ever said to you sets you straight off into be a dick mode. you want to have a reasonable adult convo?? be one. i get that the internet provides you with a safety net of privacy/anonymity. but damn. you jump to full jerk all over the place here with little to no provocation.


What makes you think this is about you in anyway? 

I called you on your BS, doesn't matter who the user is. But you apparently have something against me.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

chris86vw said:


> It is, but the TDI was not an avg vehicle, driven by avg people. Go over to TDI club, people actually steal ketchup packets from mcdonalds to save money, those are TDI owners... not avg people. The avg sales prices of TDIs was also below the avg new car price during the respective periods in which they were sold. Just because there is an avg new car priced does not in anyway mean that is what people are going to pay for replacement vehicles. The avg of everything does not necessarily mean it is the avg of the the specific pool of people buying new cars to replace TDIs.
> 
> 10% new car tax is very much an exception across the country.
> 
> ...


TDIclub is not representative of the complete actual TDI owner base, just like TCL is not representation of 'the average car buyer' either in knowledge or selection preferences. but good effort trying to bunk what average actually means in this context.

10% was me rounding up the math side to make the numbers easier to consume. its 9.5% local to me. and nationally the average is 8.4% according to what i am able to find. so yes, my location is one of the higher taxes, its definitely not off the charts since there are a number of local rates based on state, county, and city numbers that are higher than what I pay.
>>>
US average sales tax rate
The average combined sales tax rate in the United States for the second quarter of 2015 was 8.454 percent, a slight drop from 8.482 percent reported in the first quarter, according to the latest ONESOURCE Indirect Tax Rate report from Thomson Reuters.
>>>

oh no... you got that wrong. i dont think this is about me at all. its about you. completely.

there are many ways to, as you put it... "to call me out on my BS"... while being informed and civil.

i showed that by agreeing that i was incorrect about counting the tax twice. that was a mistake. i corrected my statement in this thread even.

not you though. you cant be wrong. 
"no one pays that much tax"... even though, i did.. nearly everyone in WA does, and i have proof others do as well. its an easily searchable fact.
"all tdi owners are cheap losers that steal ketchup packets and would never buy a replacement car over the new car average price"... didnt you have 2 TDI's? also, at least representative of TCL tdi owners... there is a thread about replacements. many of which are over that $30-33k average new car price mark.

anyways. 
you want me to be an adult when you wont keep up the same standard on your end.
i am done.


----------



## Maroon (Apr 10, 2014)

9.5%! That's harsh. Here in the backwaters, vehicle tax is only 5%, although the general sales tax is 7%.


----------



## MXTHOR3 (Jan 10, 2003)

Wait, I was supposed to steal ketchup packets during my 15 years of TDI ownership? I better let the parents know as well, they've still got one!


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Maroon said:


> 9.5%! That's harsh. Here in the backwaters, vehicle tax is only 5%, although the general sales tax is 7%.


i suppose. 
the state tax is 6.5%... so that's as low as anywhere in WA would get. everywhere i frequent the added county/city amount brings the number up to between 8.6-9.6%.

however. WA doesn't have an income tax. 
and i know its not universal. but a lot of places with lower/no sales tax DO have an income tax instead/also.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> TDIclub is not representative of the complete actual TDI owner base, just like TCL is not representation of 'the average car buyer' either in knowledge or selection preferences. but good effort trying to bunk what average actually means in this context.


That was the lighten the mood.

Doesn't change that the avg new price of a TDI was below the national new car avg price. 




> 10% was me rounding up the math side to make the numbers easier to consume. its 9.5% local to me. and nationally the average is 8.4% according to what i am able to find. so yes, my location is one of the higher taxes, its definitely not off the charts since there are a number of local rates based on state, county, and city numbers that are higher than what I pay.


Not all states allow the localities to tax new car purchases which lowers the avg sales tax on new cars from the general new car tax. 






> while being informed and civil.


Says the guy who jumped right to calling me a dlck numerous times... you were anything but civil, and as you pointed out your response was ONLY because it was me.. that is on you not me or anyone else. It proves the exact opposite of what you think it does

i showed that by agreeing that i was incorrect about counting the tax twice. that was a mistake. i corrected my statement in this thread even.




> not you though. you cant be wrong.
> "no one pays that much tax"... even though, i did.. nearly everyone in WA does, and i have proof others do as well. its an easily searchable fact.
> "all tdi owners are cheap losers that steal ketchup packets and would never buy a replacement car over the new car average price"... didnt you have 2 TDI's? also, at least representative of TCL tdi owners... there is a thread about replacements. many of which are over that $30-33k average new car price mark.
> 
> ...


WOW way to be a scumbag.. don't put stuff in quotes that someone didn't actually say.

On the first one I never said no one paid as much tax as you did. I Was saying you weren't paying 5k in taxes on a 30k new car.. because you didn't

On the second one it was a joke, its an actual thing someone has posted on TDI club.. but also a joke.

You keep attacking me but sorry there is seriously something wrong with you..:thumbdown:


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

The payment hit my account this morning, so I guess that means I'm finally finished with this whole ordeal. Thanks everyone for all the help and good info. It's been an adventure to say the least.

Docs submitted - Sept 28
Docs approved - Nov 15
Offer Letter received - Dec 27 and appointment scheduled same day
Turn in appt completed - Feb 11
Payment notification received - Feb 13
Payment received - Feb 14

Not spending a single dime of it for V day because my new R is my one and only love :laugh:


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

TheRealCaptainSlow said:


> The payment hit my account this morning, so I guess that means I'm finally finished with this whole ordeal. Thanks everyone for all the help and good info. It's been an adventure to say the least.
> 
> Docs submitted - Sept 28
> Docs approved - Nov 15
> ...


congrats. enjoy the R.


we still have a little bit to go. 
received the cash portion of the buy back, but the car loan still needs to be paid off... which honestly i am a little annoyed about.

we got an email saying, (hey you are done)... but we aren't. the claim is closed online... but again we aren't done.
called into the claims line. apparently the car loan payment takes VW 5 business days before they can get a "tracking number" whatever that means to them. its been 7 business days, but they dont have a tracking number :screwy:
guess i will wait some more to see what happens in the next week or so.

their consolation??? 'any payments you make until we pay off the car will be refunded to you.'... actually not really. any payments MINUS the interest i have to pay, will be returned. i would rather not have VW dragging their feet and costing me $30-35/mo while they sort out their isht.

if they can EFT me in 3 days or less, they can EFT my bank in the same time frame... anyone who wants to argue that an EFT doesnt have a paper trail, is wrong. the payments to banks/CUs can absolutely be done eft instead of paper/snail mail.


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

i apologize in advance, i haven't been keeping up with this thread, or the story for some time now.

any word on if the 2015 cars will be able to be re-sold to the public or has that ship sailed? as in sold from a dealer with a warranty, not private party.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

jreed1337 said:


> i apologize in advance, i haven't been keeping up with this thread, or the story for some time now.
> 
> any word on if the 2015 cars will be able to be re-sold to the public or has that ship sailed? as in sold from a dealer with a warranty, not private party.


at this point i dont think anyone knows definitively what will be possible/allowed.
but i would expect that any car that is bought back, once the AEM is applied...etc... that VW should be able to resell them here in the US with the modified/upgraded warranty discussed in the settlement docs.


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

dunhamjr said:


> at this point i dont think anyone knows definitively what will be possible/allowed.
> but i would expect that any car that is bought back, once the AEM is applied...etc... that VW should be able to resell them here in the US with the modified/upgraded warranty discussed in the settlement docs.


cool, thanks. my wife just paid her car off and is interested in getting a wagon. we'll see what happens.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> at this point i dont think anyone knows definitively what will be possible/allowed.
> but i would expect that any car that is bought back, once the AEM is applied...etc... that VW should be able to resell them here in the US with the modified/upgraded warranty discussed in the settlement docs.


What do you want to bet that once the fix is approved VW sells more used TDIs month-by-month than Chevy sells new Cruze TDIs?


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

jreed1337 said:


> cool, thanks. my wife just paid her car off and is interested in getting a wagon. we'll see what happens.


yep, wait and see. just dont get impatient. because it might still be 18 months or more away before they are allowed to do any reselling.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

AZGolf said:


> What do you want to bet that once the fix is approved VW sells more used TDIs month-by-month than Chevy sells new Cruze TDIs?


haha. yeah. honestly if they can resell them, its completely possible there will be a big push to get them out the door to help recoup at least some of the $ from the buyback process.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

AZGolf said:


> Years, probably. Decades? Doubt it. VW had already declined from about 4% to 2% marketshare in the US when the scandal broke out. There's about 500k TDIs affected out of the 250M registered vehicles in the US. I would take a SWAG at saying this affects less than 1% and possibly less than half a percent of people in the US. With the affect so small, VW really just needs to reach out to the other 99% to convince them to try their new non-TDI VWs. They could write off all the TDI owners entirely and still have it barely affect their potential for sales growth in the coming years if they can ever get their lineup to match what US buyers want.


Great! Then VW doesn't need us as customers! Wonderful news! 

But VW actually declined 7.6% from 2015 to 2016 http://media.vw.com/release/1320/ showing total 2016 sales at 322,948, then from http://media.vw.com/release/1121/ we see that 2014 total US sales were 366,970. Comparing 2014's number to 2016 sales, then VW shows a total loss of 12.0% from 2014 to 2016 in the US.

Nah, you're right, they don't need my money!

And dunhamjr points out an interesting conundrum: Our 2009 TDI will only give us back about half of what we paid for it and it only has 100k miles on it. It's cheaper for us in the long term to keep running it for another 100k miles than to take the buyback and find a replacement. My 2015 Golf, though, gets me back about $1000 less than what I paid for it (including TTL), so it's going back next week. Her car we keep, even if they can't 'fix' it to make CARB happy because it's cheaper.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

T5 Dave said:


> Great! Then VW doesn't need us as customers! Wonderful news!


VW seems to think so, the way they treat their customers.

Of course, people like me are dumb enough to keep buying them :sly: 

The dealership where I'm getting my CPO Passat moved up my buyback from next month to end of this month :thumbup: Hopefully this keeps the Jetta from rolling into the next mileage bracket.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

T5 Dave said:


> Great! Then VW doesn't need us as customers! Wonderful news!
> 
> But VW actually declined 7.6% from 2015 to 2016 http://media.vw.com/release/1320/ showing total 2016 sales at 322,948, then from http://media.vw.com/release/1121/ we see that 2014 total US sales were 366,970. Comparing 2014's number to 2016 sales, then VW shows a total loss of 12.0% from 2014 to 2016 in the US.
> 
> Nah, you're right, they don't need my money!


Yet they are still the largest automobile manufacturer in the world, so you're probably right.. 

The US market has cost VW far more than it's worth to them, especially after the past two years.. Considering the typical US consumer isn't interested in what makes VWs unique to the brand, it will probably continue to be an afterthought. Diesels were dying off anyway because of cheap gas and strict emissions requirements, so not much loss there.. 

On the other hand, Audi is much more profitable and has recorded record sales in 70+ consecutive months, so I'm sure the smart money will continue to be invested there.


----------



## h103 (Nov 22, 2012)

Phaetonchix_2 said:


> I spoke with VW Credit about 5 days after my 2014 JSW TDI was turned in as I need a release from them in order to get refunded for the unused portion of the extended warranty I purchased with the car. Happily, I was informed the payment I submitted on 12/16 would be refunded sometime in the next 3-4 weeks.
> 
> Sit tight and follow up with VW Credit the end of January/beginning of February. Lots of us are in the same boat, VWOA and VW Credit are out of sync.


Any response yet on your extended warranty refund? I'm just getting into the buyback process, am barely 1/3 into my extended miles, and am wondering what I need to do to make sure I don't lose any due money. I was told that EW is through the same company that is used for all cars financed through VW Credit. Do I chase that through my dealership, or through the warranty company? (info-overloaded right now in a really terrible way) Thanks in advance!


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

T5 Dave said:


> Great! Then VW doesn't need us as customers! Wonderful news!
> 
> But VW actually declined 7.6% from 2015 to 2016 http://media.vw.com/release/1320/ showing total 2016 sales at 322,948, then from http://media.vw.com/release/1121/ we see that 2014 total US sales were 366,970. Comparing 2014's number to 2016 sales, then VW shows a total loss of 12.0% from 2014 to 2016 in the US.
> 
> ...


I'm sure VW wants your money.

They just don't want to hand TDI owners the keys to a 'free' new car


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

h103 said:


> Any response yet on your extended warranty refund? I'm just getting into the buyback process, am barely 1/3 into my extended miles, and am wondering what I need to do to make sure I don't lose any due money. I was told that EW is through the same company that is used for all cars financed through VW Credit. Do I chase that through my dealership, or through the warranty company? (info-overloaded right now in a really terrible way) Thanks in advance!


when we did this, i just called the dealer to setup a meeting with their finance guy to get the extended warranty refunded.

dont be surprised if the amount of your refund is significantly less than you would anticipate.
in our example. apparently the 'extended warranty' was not an extension, but instead was a concurrent but longer coverage. so after 2.5 yrs... we had 'used' (without using at all) nearly half of the extended warranty.:banghead: so we basically got back $1100 of the $2200 we paid.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

2.0T_Convert said:


> I'm sure VW wants your money.
> 
> They just don't want to hand TDI owners the keys to a 'free' new car


VW already got my money when I bought the TDI to begin with. I expected 15 to 20 years of use from it when I bought it. VW lied to me and the world with the emissions cheat. My wife and I were duped by VW. To replace her car would cost us more out of pocket even though it has another 10 to 13 years of life left.

I only suggested the car swap as a means to keep us as loyal customers, and I fully understand if VW doesn't want to do that when their bean counters whine about it.

But big ticket purchases are done at the emotional level, and the exchange would (to me) have mitigated the anti-VW feelings to the point where I would have remained a loyal customer. But they didn't do that, the anti-VW emotions remain, so I won't.

Think of the exchange as a *marketing expense*. A lot of money is spent on advertising, social media, radio, focus groups, marketing analysis, and other marketing expenses. And who knows, maybe the expense would have outweighed long term loyalty, after all, VW chose not to opt for the option to exchange. It was their choice.

But don't act surprised when customers bail on the brand.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

15 to 20 years of use from a modern car, yet alone a VW? That's a good one.. 

Sounds like you were either lying to yourself, or found it a convenient thing to say given your situation..


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

caj1 said:


> 15 to 20 years of use from a modern car, yet alone a VW? That's a good one..
> 
> Sounds like you were either lying to yourself, or found it a convenient thing to say given your situation..


why not?

my Saab is a 2004, with 142k miles on it. runs like a champ. beyond getting bored i see no reason at all it won't remain completely reliable for the next 2-3 years to put it over the 15 year mark.
beyond that. i have no reason to think it would not still be reliable in 2024.

older TDI VW's are doing just fine. no reason a new, better built car couldnt do the same thing. yes there will be repairs. but there is no reason to think ANY of todays modern cars are throw-away cars.


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

caj1 said:


> 15 to 20 years of use from a modern car, yet alone a VW? That's a good one..
> 
> Sounds like you were either lying to yourself, or found it a convenient thing to say given your situation..


Huh? :sly: 

Your statement makes no since. 

I was also planning on keeping my 2015 TDI for at least 15 to 20 years. 

Why does this seem so far fetched for you?

Now I'm looking at picking up a 2016 TSI Golf and keeping that for 15 to 20 years.


----------



## Jimmy Russells (Feb 4, 2007)

Saggio44 said:


> Huh? :sly:
> 
> Your statement *makes no since*.
> 
> ...


irony


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

Saggio44 said:


> Huh? :sly:
> 
> Your statement makes no since.
> 
> ...


Good luck with your intake valves.


----------



## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

caj1 said:


> 15 to 20 years of use from a modern car, yet alone a VW? That's a good one..
> 
> Sounds like you were either lying to yourself, or found it a convenient thing to say given your situation..


Totally doable, something like 20% of Toyota's are owned for 10+ years by the original owner.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

2.0T_Convert said:


> I'm sure VW wants your money.
> 
> They just don't want to hand TDI owners the keys to a 'free' new car


Or help them in any way buy a new VW :banghead:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

g-man_ae said:


> Or help them in any way buy a new VW :banghead:


It's been said in this thread that if you're there about your TDI buyback the salespeople cannot come and talk to you, but you are free to talk to them to open up a conversation.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

caj1 said:


> 15 to 20 years of use from a modern car, yet alone a VW? That's a good one..


Lemme introduce you to a brand new idea. It ain't like your stupid car, it don't come from Korea. It's the nearly 17YO (one more month!) B5 wagon that I just drove to work today. Aside from finicky control arms, it's not only useful, but durable, stable, and really ****ing fun to drive.



Air and water do mix said:


> It's been said in this thread that if you're there about your TDI buyback the salespeople cannot come and talk to you, but you are free to talk to them to open up a conversation.


You know, we did not test that out, as we walked in and said "we need to replace our TDI. We want a GTI Sport. What do you have?"

They had this, so we bought it. Mmmmmmmm, those wheels are so much better than the regular GTI wheels. I like them this |................................................................................................| much!


----------



## garbonz1 (Apr 14, 2010)

*Tdi emission*

Just got my email in the recall. Woohoo. Take car in get $4400 pick car up. What's not to love 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

very weird that this got moved out of TCL into the Golf/GTI MK7 forum.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

T5 Dave said:


> I only suggested the car swap as a means to keep us as loyal customers, and I fully understand if VW doesn't want to do that when their bean counters whine about it.


What you don't seem to understand is that it likely was the FTC that canned this idea, not that it likely ever was an idea...

Handing VW more business is not a penalty. 


You weren't getting a free brand new car ever wasn't on the table from any part involved, why would someone with a car worth 5k and a car with 35k get exactly the same thing?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

dunhamjr said:


> very weird that this got moved out of TCL into the Golf/GTI MK7 forum.


yeah that makes no sense since the fewest cars involved are mk7s...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

caj1 said:


> 15 to 20 years of use from a modern car, yet alone a VW? That's a good one..
> 
> Sounds like you were either lying to yourself, or found it a convenient thing to say given your situation..


what? :screwy:

15-20 years on a modern car is NOT a problem even a VW.. especially a VW really


----------



## h103 (Nov 22, 2012)

dunhamjr said:


> when we did this, i just called the dealer to setup a meeting with their finance guy to get the extended warranty refunded.
> 
> dont be surprised if the amount of your refund is significantly less than you would anticipate.
> in our example. apparently the 'extended warranty' was not an extension, but instead was a concurrent but longer coverage. so after 2.5 yrs... we had 'used' (without using at all) nearly half of the extended warranty.:banghead: so we basically got back $1100 of the $2200 we paid.


:sly: WHOA! That is sooooooo wrong, but *THANK YOU* for the heads up. Good to know that I should only expect $1000 instead of $1500. At least I have 34 days to chill it down.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

h103 said:


> :sly: WHOA! That is sooooooo wrong, but *THANK YOU* for the heads up. Good to know that I should only expect $1000 instead of $1500. At least I have 34 days to chill it down.


the biggest thing that pissed my off is that when we bought the extended warranty i specifically asked the finance guy TWICE clear as can be, that if we wanted a refund prior to the end of the new car warranty running out that we could get a full refund on the extended warranty. and he answered "yes, absolutely" both times. 

so either he was ignorant of the product he was selling or lied... not sure which is worse.

whatever happened to "i dont know, let me find out"?? :banghead:


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

Can you? Sure.. but at what point does it become a money pit, losing $$ hand over fist while having to constantly fix the exponentially higher number of electronic modules, various new options/safety features, etc that makes newer cars far more complicated than they were even 10 years ago? IMO, that's what makes cars much more disposable than they were back when you could just swap in a new engine before you finished a 6 pack and be on your way..



chris86vw said:


> what? :screwy:
> 
> 15-20 years on a modern car is NOT a problem even a VW.. especially a VW really


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

caj1 said:


> Can you? Sure.. but at what point does it become a money pit, losing $$ hand over fist while having to constantly fix the exponentially higher number of electronic modules, various new options/safety features, etc that makes newer cars far more complicated than they were even 10 years ago? IMO, that's what makes cars much more disposable than they were back when you could just swap in a new engine before you finished a 6 pack and be on your way..


says the guy with two brand new cars losing money hand over fist to depreciation
opcorn:

a well maintained car over a 15-20 year period, yes will have its failures. but beyond extreme examples, will be loads cheaper than buying brand new instantly depreciating cars every 3-5 years.

i have had my 2004 Saab for almost 5 yrs. i didnt even buy the car till it was 8 yrs old. as far as actual REPAIRS, not maintenance or mods... over the last almost 5 years i have spent $338. plus DIY labor. that includes HID bulbs since technically that is a part 'failure' and some broken seat trim, which was cosmetic but was actually broken.

thats on an 8yr old car starting at 127k miles, from a brand not specifically known as highly reliable.

i do see where you are coming from with simplicity. but complexity doesnt make newer cars disposable.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

I don't buy depreciating assets. I pay to use cars with good pre-set residuals and lease rates; the depreciation is someone else's problem. 

A car made in 2004 is not the basis of my argument, and doesn't even fall into the 15-20 year timeframe. A lot can go wrong with a 13 year old car in a few years time. I wish you luck, though



dunhamjr said:


> says the guy with two brand new cars losing money hand over fist to depreciation
> opcorn:
> 
> a well maintained car over a 15-20 year period, yes will have its failures. but beyond extreme examples, will be loads cheaper than buying brand new instantly depreciating cars every 3-5 years.
> ...


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

caj1 said:


> I don't buy depreciating assets. I pay to use cars with good pre-set residuals and lease rates; the depreciation is someone else's problem.
> 
> A car made in 2004 is not the basis of my argument, and doesn't even fall into the 15-20 year timeframe. A lot can go wrong with a 13 year old car in a few years time. I wish you luck, though


just like a lot can go wrong with brand new cars. but yeah. nothing to gain by saying more.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

dunhamjr said:


> just like a lot can go wrong with brand new cars. but yeah. nothing to gain by saying more.


A warranty helps


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Now back to relevant posts.

Buy back appointment on Feb 4th, 3rd party loan paid off today... Feb 17th, not bad but maybe longer than I thought it might take.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

caj1 said:


> Can you? Sure.. but at what point does it become a money pit, losing $$ hand over fist while having to constantly fix the exponentially higher number of electronic modules, various new options/safety features, etc that makes newer cars far more complicated than they were even 10 years ago? IMO, that's what makes cars much more disposable than they were back when you could just swap in a new engine before you finished a 6 pack and be on your way..


Yet the days you speak of are the ones when cars were money pits and didn't last 15-20 years

now they do.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

Air and water do mix said:


> It's been said in this thread that if you're there about your TDI buyback the salespeople cannot come and talk to you, but you are free to talk to them to open up a conversation.


Perhaps, by VWoA should've stepped up to help their TDI customers. Something like, you can sign your settlement amount directly over to to the dealership for a replacement vehicle, and VW would match, say, 50 cents on the dollar.

I just hate the fact that when you turn in your TDI, you're done, now go buy a replacement car like anyone else.

I made it work out getting my next car (after a let of my own leg-work), but others may not be so fortunate.


----------



## Anuska299 (Feb 10, 2017)

*I came pretty close to getting a "free" new car*



2.0T_Convert said:


> I'm sure VW wants your money.
> 
> They just don't want to hand TDI owners the keys to a 'free' new car


Last week VW bought back my 2013 TDI DSG base, only cost me $550 US more including taxes and registration for a new similar equiped Alltrack, less than I paid originally for the TDI.


----------



## eweu (Jul 22, 2001)

g-man_ae said:


> Perhaps, by VWoA should've stepped up to help their TDI customers.


I'm sure VW would have preferred to do something like that. But the opprobrium for Volkswagen as defendant precluded anything that could possibly seen as helping the company make sales under the settlement.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

eweu said:


> I'm sure VW would have preferred to do something like that. But the opprobrium for Volkswagen as defendant precluded anything that could possibly seen as helping the company make sales under the settlement.


Fair enough. I just wish the VWoA rep I spoke with told me as much. I was ready to walk away from VW for good.


----------



## Rugrat Anklebiter (Dec 5, 2000)

Returned my TDI on February 3rd. The note still hasn't been paid off at VWoA 16 days later. Now it shows that I'm late! I've never been late on a car payment with them ever! I waited forty minutes to speak with a customer support agent today before giving up.


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

Rugrat Anklebiter said:


> Returned my TDI on February 3rd. The note still hasn't been paid off at VWoA 16 days later. Now it shows that I'm late! I've never been late on a car payment with them ever! I waited forty minutes to speak with a customer support agent today before giving up.


It's not "late" credit wise until 30+ days


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

Rawcpoppa said:


> Good luck with your intake valves.


Please explain


----------



## Rawcpoppa (Oct 17, 2011)

Saggio44 said:


> Please explain


Gasoline direct injection engines tend to have carbon build up on the intake valves via normal use of the engine. Intake valves do not have any fuel washing them clean. Some ha e reported issues in as little as 2-3 years so I was wishing you best of luck as you plan to keep for as much as 20 years. 

Only time will tell.


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

Anuska299 said:


> Last week VW bought back my 2013 TDI DSG base, only cost me $550 US more including taxes and registration for a new similar equiped Alltrack, less than I paid originally for the TDI.


And did you?

They want you to trade in your crap to buy their new crap.

(Minus GTI, Golf R)


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

g-man_ae said:


> Perhaps, by VWoA should've stepped up to help their TDI customers. Something like, you can sign your settlement amount directly over to to the dealership for a replacement vehicle, and VW would match, say, 50 cents on the dollar.
> 
> I just hate the fact that when you turn in your TDI, you're done, now go buy a replacement car like anyone else.
> 
> I made it work out getting my next car (after a let of my own leg-work), but others may not be so fortunate.


Really?

You don't think the strong market premium that many (if not most) TDI owners are receieving isn't sufficient?

It's going to have cost us about $100/month to own/drive our TDI over its 5+ year ownership period. That's crazy. 

Not to mention I got $6000 off MSRP on my Mk7 GTI when I purchased it (independent of turning in the TDI, which we still have).


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

Numbersix said:


> Really?
> 
> You don't think the strong market premium that many (if not most) TDI owners are receieving isn't sufficient?


All of that is what the courts *ordered* VW to do for us. VW didn't provide any this out of the kindness of their corporate hearts. That's why I feel VW should've gone 1 step beyond what they were required to do, and offer some assistance to TDI customers as a gesture of customer retention.

Apparently, VW wasn't allowed to so


----------



## JackStraw79 (Aug 10, 2015)

Rugrat Anklebiter said:


> Returned my TDI on February 3rd. The note still hasn't been paid off at VWoA 16 days later. Now it shows that I'm late! I've never been late on a car payment with them ever! I waited forty minutes to speak with a customer support agent today before giving up.


That's a bummer, but hopefully it will be paid this week. I returned my TDI on Feb 1st and they paid off my PenFed loan on Feb 17th


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

Rawcpoppa said:


> Gasoline direct injection engines tend to have carbon build up on the intake valves via normal use of the engine. Intake valves do not have any fuel washing them clean. Some ha e reported issues in as little as 2-3 years so I was wishing you best of luck as you plan to keep for as much as 20 years.
> 
> Only time will tell.


Gotcha.

Well, my 2008 DI Cayenne GTS is doing just fine with 80K miles on her. :laugh:


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Spouse liiiiiiiiiiiiikes the GTI. :thumbup:


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

atomicalex said:


> Spouse liiiiiiiiiiiiikes the GTI. :thumbup:


well surprise there. :laugh:

:thumbup:


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

.


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

g-man_ae said:


> Perhaps, by VWoA should've stepped up to help their TDI customers. Something like, you can sign your settlement amount directly over to to the dealership for a replacement vehicle, and VW would match, say, 50 cents on the dollar.
> 
> I just hate the fact that when you turn in your TDI, you're done, now go buy a replacement car like anyone else.
> 
> I made it work out getting my next car (after a let of my own leg-work), but others may not be so fortunate.


VW would've preferred to give everyone a voucher for 20% off MSRP on their next vw than to do the buyback or repair.

The buyback get X amount off the road was a mandate. The no cross shopping spearfishing TDI buyback customers was also a mandate.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

g-man_ae said:


> Perhaps, by VWoA should've stepped up to help their TDI customers. Something like, you can sign your settlement amount directly over to to the dealership for a replacement vehicle, and VW would match, say, 50 cents on the dollar.
> 
> I just hate the fact that when you turn in your TDI, you're done, now go buy a replacement car like anyone else.
> 
> I made it work out getting my next car (after a let of my own leg-work), but others may not be so fortunate.


Offering TDI customers money matching would be profiting from the settlement, which I believe another posted mentioned is illegal or at least in violation of settlement agreement.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Offering TDI customers money matching would be profiting from the settlement, which I believe another posted mentioned is illegal or at least in violation of settlement agreement.


Right. And I'm still puzzled why, when I asked VW Customer Care about it, they couldn't tell me as much  I was ready to write-off VW for good until I learned this.

Funny enough, I first learned it at the VW dealership where I'm getting my next VW :laugh: Not all auto sales reps are liars and thieves, who knew?


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

atomicalex said:


> Spouse liiiiiiiiiiiiikes the GTI. :thumbup:


Great! Did you guys opt for a stick or DSG? How do you feel about the DSG?


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

Eligible lessee here, got my offer letter, it's a bit confusing though. 

At the beginning of the letter it references giving a percentage of MSRP for 2015 Model Year vehicles, but my Jetta is a 2014. Then it goes on to describe how the process for modification and payments goes for 2015 model year cars, but no reference to the fix or process for years 2014 or earlier.

For all of you with 2014 year cars and earlier, did your letter read that same way?

Also, am I correct in the assumption that for owners of 2014 cars and earlier who opt for the fix, we have to wait until the fix is approved (or not) to receive our restitution payment?

Thanks in advance.....


----------



## Accidental L8 apex (Sep 26, 2008)

g-man_ae said:


> Right. And I'm still puzzled why, when I asked VW Customer Care about it, they couldn't tell me as much  I was ready to write-off VW for good until I learned this.
> 
> Funny enough, I first learned it at the VW dealership where I'm getting my next VW :laugh: Not all auto sales reps are liars and thieves, who knew?


If this whole thing bothered you this much, you should've went elsewhere, marque-wise. Sometimes, the grass is greener. No pun intended.


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

OK I'll keep the question nice and simple I guess.


For owners of 2014 cars and earlier who opt for the fix, do we wait until the fix is approved (or not) to receive our restitution payment?


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

DerSpiegel said:


> OK I'll keep the question nice and simple I guess.
> 
> 
> For owners of 2014 cars and earlier who opt for the fix, do we wait until the fix is approved (or not) to receive our restitution payment?


Yes. You are not getting any compensation until the fix has been actually installed on the vehicle. That can't happen until there actually IS an approval for the fix (the approval, if granted, is expected next month) AND the parts actually become available to be actually installed ... and no one knows how long that is going to take.

The hardware part of the recently-approved 2015-model "fix" - which is a two-step process, first software then hardware - isn't expected to actually become available until early 2018. No one knows when the hardware will be available for the gen 1 if the approval is granted ... but a year-ish delay as with the 2015s wouldn't be surprising.

If you opt for the fix, and it turns out that there is no approved fix for your vehicle, you will have another opportunity to select buyback, but then your alternate to the buyback will be to do absolutely nothing and get absolutely nothing.

Some of the very early common-rail cars have the LNT (which is the offending non-conforming non-functioning piece of the system) one-piece with the DPF - they are welded together and the whole assembly is only sold as one part. Thus, LNT replacement requires DPF replacement. It can be replaced with the later two-piece design - but it still means a new DPF. It wouldn't be surprising if VW opts to throw in the towel on those cars, even if there is otherwise a "gen 1" fix, since those are all getting to be old cars and will mostly have high mileage (i.e. low value).


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

The idea of stretching this out into and past 2018 is crazy but I get the idea that some are willing to wait it out. If I had a Gen 3 vehicle I don't think we would have waited.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> The idea of stretching this out into and past 2018 is crazy but I get the idea that some are willing to wait it out. If I had a Gen 3 vehicle I don't think we would have waited.


i seriously considered delaying the buyback until late 2018. our car a 2013, is not too likely to get fixed. but the thought of driving the car essentially depreciation free with the ability to schedule the buyback at anytime if something bad started to happen was a big draw for me. if i hadnt essentially bought a replacement car in July 2016, we would have kept the JSW another 12-18 months.

as it is... even doing the buyback Feb 4th, 2017... the effective cost of the purchase vs buyback price worked out to less than $35/mo.
if we had gone another year it would have been even lower.


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

I'm officially done with VW  Got my overage check in the mail from VW for $786 (two months worth of payments) this afternoon. Loving my Subaru Outback Limited replacement.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

Got my lease termination done today. It took all of 5 minutes.










Here's a tip: Everything VW said (via the settlement site, about the lease termination option) about conducting a full lease return inspection is :bs: (If they hadn't figured out how to fix the Gen-3 TDIs I wouldn't have believed it either.) The TDI buyback rep didn't do anything more with my car than take some photos, put the above sticker in the window, and make sure I didn't leave any personal belongings. I could've left my worn-to-the-tabs stock tires on there and she wouldn't have noticed. Good thing I didn't blow any money on a full detailing, due to the weather.

Here's the parting shot before they drove it away. A transporter truck arrived as I left in my new car, partially loaded with TDIs, so I suspect that's where the Jetta was going, too.










I won't miss that car. Not one thing about it. Not one bit.


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

g-man_ae said:


> I won't miss that car. Not one thing about it. Not one bit.


I could have told you that before you bought it.. what on earth compelled you to buy a Jetta in the first place?


----------



## caj1 (Feb 16, 1999)

Mazda 3s said:


> I'm officially done with VW


Again?


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

caj1 said:


> Again?


?? It was my first and last VW


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

caj1 said:


> I could have told you that before you bought it.. what on earth compelled you to buy a Jetta in the first place?


It was the cheapest way to get a TDI. BTW it was leased :wave: 

Especially since, with the then-new Golf showing up on the lots, Jettas were languishing in inventory. Dealers were asking - and getting - close to MSRP on GTIs (even Golfs) at the time, while Jettas were easy to deal on.

Since you feel even more strongly against Jettas than me, you should contribute to this thread.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-my-2016-Jetta-Heres-is-what-I-am-Considering


----------



## h103 (Nov 22, 2012)

I made my GSW deposit yesterday, got my VIN today. My car will arrive about one week before my buyback appointment. I had previously set up EFT, and my buyback clerk said I should NOT make any changes so close to the buyback date.

Although I can survive 3 days with no car, the local manager said that he might be able to work with the loan dept, so that I can drive my own car same day, then renegotiate the monthly payment 4 days later when I have the $$ to pay 2/3 of my new car.

Is this actually possible, and if so, how much of a PITA is it to renegotiate the payment amount 4 days after taking delivery? Thanks!


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

h103 said:


> I made my GSW deposit yesterday, got my VIN today. My car will arrive about one week before my buyback appointment. I had previously set up EFT, and my buyback clerk said I should NOT make any changes so close to the buyback date.
> 
> Although I can survive 3 days with no car, the local manager said that he might be able to work with the loan dept, so that I can drive my own car same day, then renegotiate the monthly payment 4 days later when I have the $$ to pay 2/3 of my new car.
> 
> Is this actually possible, and if so, how much of a PITA is it to renegotiate the payment amount 4 days after taking delivery? Thanks!


You'll be "test driving" your car for a few days. It's called a BCA "borrowed car agreement".


----------



## h103 (Nov 22, 2012)

Aseras said:


> You'll be "test driving" your car for a few days. It's called a BCA "borrowed car agreement".


Wow! I didn't realize this is an all-the-time DADT thing; thought "3-day test drives", "7-day test drives", etc. were only a rare incentive offered by other marques. Google just gave me an eyeful. Thanks so much!


----------



## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

Mazda 3s said:


> I'm officially done with VW  Got my overage check in the mail from VW for $786 (two months worth of payments) this afternoon. Loving my Subaru Outback Limited replacement.


Feels good, but enjoy replacing your engine as a maintenance interval. 

Trololol 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

They can't just give you a loaner for 3 days? Wtf. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rufus T. Firefly (Jul 2, 2016)

So I got the fix on my 2015 Golf TDI S ten days ago, got my $4200 a few days later, and just got my re-tune from KermaTDI yesterday. Car is running fantastic and the Kerma tune really makes it pretty quick. Couldn't be happier!


----------



## Blade3562 (Aug 17, 2012)

Rufus T. Firefly said:


> So I got the fix on my 2015 Golf TDI S ten days ago, got my $4200 a few days later, and just got my re-tune from KermaTDI yesterday. Car is running fantastic and the Kerma tune really makes it pretty quick. Couldn't be happier!


This is great news. I can't wait until my dealer can sell some of it's leftover TDIs. They have a '15 TDI SEL in Silk Blue Metallic I'm dying to have. I love the interior and wheels. I'm doing more highway miles lately (I've done 50k in 2 years on my current Golf!) and if I could get a killer deal on a TDI the cost per mile might work out finally.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

Early buyback (lease termination) Mon., funds received today :thumbup: 

Time to un-sub this thread. Goodbye TDI, you won't be missed.


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

Blade3562 said:


> This is great news. I can't wait until my dealer can sell some of it's leftover TDIs. They have a '15 TDI SEL in Silk Blue Metallic I'm dying to have. I love the interior and wheels. I'm doing more highway miles lately (I've done 50k in 2 years on my current Golf!) and if I could get a killer deal on a TDI the cost per mile might work out finally.


Who said they are selling them?


----------



## Blade3562 (Aug 17, 2012)

Saggio44 said:


> Who said they are selling them?


They can sell the new unsold vehicles once the fix is approved and installed. These cars aren't buybacks, but rather new old stock (funny to say that describing an entire vehicle lol). He said the Jetta TDI lease deals are going to be insane especially for employees.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Turned in the 2015 on Feb 6th

I must have checked on the 23r early and not since but called yesterday (3/2) and they said it was paid off on the 23rd of feb.

Apparently not all states require that you receive confirmation of the loan being paid off.. so VW credit doesn't send them unless you ask :screwy:

Middle of a mortgage so glad I called sooner than later to confirm and make sure they sent a letter as I'm not in one of those states.

So anyone waiting on a pay off confirmation you might need to follow up the aren't notifying everyone automatically.

Check for about $950 in over payments in the mail


----------



## DerSpiegel (Jun 20, 2008)

GoFaster said:


> Yes. You are not getting any compensation until the fix has been actually installed on the vehicle. That can't happen until there actually IS an approval for the fix (the approval, if granted, is expected next month) AND the parts actually become available to be actually installed ... and no one knows how long that is going to take.
> 
> The hardware part of the recently-approved 2015-model "fix" - which is a two-step process, first software then hardware - isn't expected to actually become available until early 2018. No one knows when the hardware will be available for the gen 1 if the approval is granted ... but a year-ish delay as with the 2015s wouldn't be surprising.
> 
> ...


OK yes, thanks for that. Confirms most of my assumptions.


----------



## 2.0T_Convert (Mar 23, 2009)

Rufus T. Firefly said:


> So I got the fix on my 2015 Golf TDI S ten days ago, got my $4200 a few days later, and just got my re-tune from KermaTDI yesterday. Car is running fantastic and the Kerma tune really makes it pretty quick. Couldn't be happier!


Does this tune bypass emissions?


----------



## h103 (Nov 22, 2012)

chris86vw said:


> Turned in the 2015 on Feb 6th
> 
> I must have checked on the 23r early and not since but called yesterday (3/2) and they said it was paid off on the 23rd of feb. ...


Might I ask, did you have a payment due between the 9th and 23rd? If so, was it withdrawn? After my buyback, my next payment will be due longer than the 3-day auto-withdrawal lock-in, but *not much* longer, so I'm wondering whether I should expect to see yet another payment taken before it's settled. I know I'll definitely be on the phone with the extended warranty peeps pretty much on my way out the door.


----------



## Rufus T. Firefly (Jul 2, 2016)

2.0T_Convert said:


> Does this tune bypass emissions?



Ha ha, nope, all emissions are intact!


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

h103 said:


> Might I ask, did you have a payment due between the 9th and 23rd? If so, was it withdrawn? After my buyback, my next payment will be due longer than the 3-day auto-withdrawal lock-in, but *not much* longer, so I'm wondering whether I should expect to see yet another payment taken before it's settled. I know I'll definitely be on the phone with the extended warranty peeps pretty much on my way out the door.


Technically I had one due on the 15th of Feb. 

This applies to VW credit only, you need to call your bank to ask if it is someone else. 

I called, to ask if the car had been paid off yet and it was not sometime between turn in and the 23rd (could have been the morning of 23rd since I Called early that day before it was paid off), I mentioned it was turned in for the buyback and they said that they will put my account on some sort of hold that no payments were due after the turn in date. Interest was still being calculated but missed payments would not get a surcharge and they would not report a payment as being late for credit purposes. 

Any other bank you likely need to keep paying. Even with VW credit I made 2 payments after my payoff amount was determined so there is an overage check being sent back to me. 



As for the warranty, can't you just cancel it now?


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

*Bosch*

Anyone gotten their Bosch money yet? I got another email about it and shows that since I've already registered (and completed) our buyback that it will be automatically processed and to be $350+/- more into our account/pockets.


----------



## h103 (Nov 22, 2012)

chris86vw said:


> Technically I had one due on the 15th of Feb.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Mine is financed through VW credit. Sounds like I should cancel the auto-pay right now, and only internet pay if the freeze hasn't been logged on my account by the payment due date.

I'm leaving the warranty intact until I hand over the keys. I don't have any significant miles to drive in the next 15 days, so it will only be a couple dollars lost to keep the coverage. I also keep a second umbrella for my few-times-per-year passenger, and my snow brush never leaves my car other than to clean off snow/ice because I'm not convinced a 2lb implement horribly impacts my fuel economy. Just how I am.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

yes I would cancel the autopay but watch the loan until it's paid off to avoid a late "hit" .... but this will prevent them from taking your $$ without your knowing the status.


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> Anyone gotten their Bosch money yet? I got another email about it and shows that since I've already registered (and completed) our buyback that it will be automatically processed and to be $350+/- more into our account/pockets.


I'm not sure what your email said, but mine stated that *The Court will hold a hearing on May 11, 2017 to consider whether to grant final approval to the Bosch Settlement.* so personally I am not expecting a penny from this settlement until this summer, at the earliest.


----------



## h103 (Nov 22, 2012)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> yes I would cancel the autopay but watch the loan until it's paid off to avoid a late "hit" .... but this will prevent them from taking your $$ without your knowing the status.


I called to cancel because deleting Autopay is *not* an option on the Autopay page. I think this was the fastest step in this entire fiasco. 2 clicks.

Screenshot for anyone else who thinks the Autopay setup page would be the most logical place to put the un-setup Autopay link. (Why on earth would I click Pay Online for any reason other than *making* a payment?)


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

h103 said:


> Mine is financed through VW credit. Sounds like I should cancel the auto-pay right now, and only internet pay if the freeze hasn't been logged on my account by the payment due date.


You must call them after the turn in and tell them that it was turned in or it doesn't get frozen since they don't actually know it was turned in until it gets paid off. When I called she did it right then.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

*Volkswagen set to plead guilty on Friday in emissions case*



Reuters said:


> By David Shepardson
> 
> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Volkswagen AG is set to plead guilty on Friday to three felony counts in the Justice Department's diesel emissions investigation, as the German automaker seeks to move past its cheating scandal.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

Looks like we'll be getting a few more bucks soon.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

I don't have a dog in this fight any more but I came across the following thread on TDIClub.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=473191



> After driving my 2015 Passat SE TDI manual for three weeks after the fix I can say that I really like the fix. Who ever programed the software knew what they were doing and had experience driving a manual transmission vehicle. The car feels much more refined and will not stall as fast as before. It pulls like a tractor at low engine speeds yet is zippy on the highway. I have no way of telling if it uses more DFT or not. Mileage has not suffered as far as I can tell. I went on a trip to NC and got 46MPG which included some local driving. Local mixed driving i got 40MPG. So far very happy I kept my car.


The engineer in me says :bs: You can't get something for nothing in an engineered, integrated system. OTOH if anyone is anal about TDI MPG and performance, it's a TDIClub member  

I might have kept mine, if I didn't hate the Jetta-VI, and diesel too.


----------



## Lithium Lotus (May 26, 2008)

They plead guilty

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/...scandal-friday-lawyer-150706301--finance.html


----------



## h103 (Nov 22, 2012)

chris86vw said:


> You must call them after the turn in and tell them that it was turned in or it doesn't get frozen since they don't actually know it was turned in until it gets paid off. When I called she did it right then.


Note made! I'll definitely be on the phone that day. Thanks!

I can't wait until this chapter is done. My salesman looked a little weary when he asked me what model or models I was considering, and I silently looked at him and pointed at my tempest blue JSW parked outside. He asked me if I had considered anything else. I told him that I *didn't* accidentally buy a car I didn't want in 2013, and I don't want to now.

I don't want to give up 500+ miles to the tank / 44+ mpg highway. I don't want my front 12v socket to be in a location that makes my dashcam power cord a gearshift hazard. I don't want my 110v socket to be in a location my passengers can't reach. I don't want back seat cushions that I can't flip forward. I don't want my cruise controls under my thumb. I don't want my SD card to be in my glove compartment. There are several interior differences on the GSW that I *genuinely dislike*.

*But I also don't want* to destroy the environment any more than necessary (my nephews rock! they need a clean world), *and* I don't want to lose the *opportunity* to get out so far ahead of current KBB.

I bought the TDi version because I *believed* it was better. Every single time my car goes through a self-cleaning cycle for its particulate filter, I can smell it, it reminds me what my car is doing to the environment, and I'm *not *OK with that.


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

g-man_ae said:


> I don't have a dog in this fight any more but I came across the following thread on TDIClub.
> 
> http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=473191
> 
> ...


Just from the engineering, and not looking at your opinion of VW and diesel, I understand that minimal impact on driving or efficiency is a requirement for the fix. Of course I'm wondering about a Gen 1 fix, but since everyone involved is under court order not to discuss it, information is pretty limited. I do notice that there are still a lot of Gen 1 vehicles driving around here. I doubt I'm the only one waiting.


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

h103 said:


> Note made! I'll definitely be on the phone that day. Thanks!
> 
> I can't wait until this chapter is done. My salesman looked a little weary when he asked me what model or models I was considering, and I silently looked at him and pointed at my tempest blue JSW parked outside. He asked me if I had considered anything else. I told him that I *didn't* accidentally buy a car I didn't want in 2013, and I don't want to now.
> 
> ...



On the flip side.... you can still feel good that over a few years of driving the car you have used less fuel than another car would have... probably quite a few gallons worth. Every gallon you saved was a good thing for the air. It takes a fair amount of energy to mine, refine, and transport all that oil. So.... don't beat yourself up too much.


----------



## h103 (Nov 22, 2012)

phospher5 said:


> On the flip side.... you can still feel good that over a few years of driving the car you have used less fuel than another car would have... probably quite a few gallons worth. Every gallon you saved was a good thing for the air. It takes a fair amount of energy to mine, refine, and transport all that oil. So.... don't beat yourself up too much.


I ran the numbers on https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_gnd_dcus_nus_a.htm because comparing 2008-2013 fuel expenses to 2013-2017 fuel expenses would be pointless.

My TDi's lifetime average is 36.7mpg. My old '95 Civic with its gobsmacking 102HP got 32.1mpg. The modern engine tech "savings" of *also* having modern HP, diesel torque, and an extra 31% curb weight across 3.7yrs = $1.59. I'm *really* going to miss that.

Indeed comparing apples to apples, JSW TDi to GSW(G) at 29mpg average, it looks like my TDi has saved about 400gal of total fuel moved. Google tells me 16-20% of crude becomes diesel/heating oil, so it took somewhere between 2000-2500 gallons of crude to refine that; however, I'm not considering crude gallons, because roughly 1600-2100gal were refined into non-diesel products. I suppose I'll be content with 400gal, and the transport thereof.

I use the aCar Android app to track lifetime stats for my cars. I *am* looking forward to seeing how the gasoline city mileage averages compared to TDi. Goat knows warming-up TDi mileage is not where the economy is.


----------



## HI SPEED (Sep 3, 2004)

I bet that VW is wishing that this came to light in 2017, instead. The new head of the EPA would have given them a prize for polluting the most. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## h103 (Nov 22, 2012)

Did my purchase order. Next week, I say goodbye to my TDi bear.

2 questions:

1. Anybody know if the 2013 JSW Monster mats fit the anchors for the 2017 GSW?

2. Suggestions for a tow loop license plate bracket that sits high enough to NOT block the fog light? I don't want my bumper drilled.


----------



## g-man_ae (Jun 20, 2001)

According to the truck driver, the holding area in Chattanooga, TN is overflowing. These are going to another one in Lafayette, GA which is also near capacity.


----------



## Harold (Jul 31, 2000)

My dads paperwork for his 2015 A3 finally went thru. Even though he specified buyback they had him for repair. Oh that is not correct, please resubmit paperwork in full.  Getting back more than what he paid for it ( bought CPO around Summer 2015). He is going to splurge and get a loaded A4.


----------



## h103 (Nov 22, 2012)

Harold said:


> Getting back more than what he paid for it ( bought CPO around Summer 2015). He is going to splurge and get a loaded A4.


Congrats to him for the fortuitous blunder!


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

g-man_ae said:


> I don't have a dog in this fight any more but I came across the following thread on TDIClub.
> 
> http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=473191
> 
> ...


Some vehicles like the very early 09s are pushing 10 software updates over their lifetime so far. Not all cars had that many but there are certain versions of early software IDs that were updated a few times, then superseded to a new part number.. then revised a few times. On all those various updates there was of course several users who swore that it was terrible they lost over 5mpg and want the old software back.. If one was to believe this actually happened with each update like claimed they would be getting negative mpg :screwy:

Changes can be had for little to nothing with software tuning, changes that people claim? no, but yes improvements or losses can occur.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

OP update:

Looks like our car will be going back to VW on or around April 11.


----------



## rlc6009 (Mar 22, 2017)

*2004 JETTA TDI Getting Old*

Hey mine is 13 years old and I Plan on keeping it for another 7years or so. Of course I change the oil and add a package of ketchup that I stole from Whataburger at every oil change.


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

My 2015 TDI is going back tomorrow morning and I'm getting sad about it :facepalm:

Going to miss her... :heart:


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Saggio44 said:


> My 2015 TDI is going back tomorrow morning and I'm getting sad about it :facepalm:
> 
> Going to miss her...


So then don't turn it in yet, or at all...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

dunhamjr said:


> So then don't turn it in yet, or at all...
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


It's way too good of a deal to pass up.

I'm getting $30,600 and my car has 48075 miles!

I'll for sure be getting a 2018 or 2019 Golf when I'm ready again though :thumbup:


----------



## h103 (Nov 22, 2012)

Saggio44 said:


> My 2015 TDI is going back tomorrow morning and I'm getting sad about it :facepalm:
> 
> Going to miss her... :heart:


*I feel this pain.* My bebe is a 2013, so 2017 just happens to be the year that she would have to start *passing* Ohio eCheck.

On one hand, I've been told that hacking up the back end to make space to retrofit AdBlue would require modification WAY BEYOND what the EPA considers "reasonable."
On the other hand, an engineer (non-VW) I trust has told me that because my car doesn't have the AdBlue urea system, fixing the emissions problem with a <20% drop in fuel economy would "defy the laws of physics."

I assume my car will be rejected for eCheck, because the test is obviously defeated without any fix, so I have my buyback appt in less than 12 hours.

I am massively upset about losing a car that was so perfect for me, my road trip cohorts, my preferred cargo configs, and my camping habits. Move a couple of interior bits this way or that, and suddenly the perfect car is chronically inconvenient.

http://imgur.com/a/jqsbd


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

g-man_ae said:


> According to the truck driver, the holding area in Chattanooga, TN is overflowing. These are going to another one in Lafayette, GA which is also near capacity.


The city of Pontiac is getting pissed off about all of the cars piling up at the Silver Dome. VWoA needs to make some progress on getting these things moved out of Dodge. 

Ours is sitting in the garage, two more weeks and it goes back. I imagine I will have to charge the battery shortly. 

The GTI is fun.


----------



## h103 (Nov 22, 2012)

This is Mathilde / Mattie. She is a Replacement,

and ZOMG! I desperately need to figure out some red gels, because the console, gear indicator, steering wheel, and overhead lightswitch lights are *disturbingly WHITE*. Like 10,000K white. Superbright LED overheads are going to need yellow gels.

I turned the rheostat way low to lessen vision irritation, but then the icons were too dim to discern. I'm can't imagine who thought cool white was better than red when it's dark out. Yet another way that 2013 JSW > 2017 GSW. UX fail! :-( 

I REALLY miss all of the beautiful red lights in my JSW.


----------



## stascom (Sep 12, 2009)

h103 said:


> This is Mathilde / Mattie. She is a Replacement,
> 
> and ZOMG! I desperately need to figure out some red gels, because the console, gear indicator, steering wheel, and overhead lightswitch lights are *disturbingly WHITE*. Like 10,000K white.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

h103 said:


> This is Mathilde / Mattie. She is a Replacement,
> 
> and ZOMG! I desperately need to figure out some red gels, because the console, gear indicator, steering wheel, and overhead lightswitch lights are *disturbingly WHITE*. Like 10,000K white. Superbright LED overheads are going to need yellow gels.
> 
> ...


When I first got my 2015 I thought the leds were too much, too bright, basically same as you. By a month or two into ownership I hopped into my 2012 and was like WTF is this cave I'm in, the lighting is terrible and dated old tech.. 

The 2003 allroad that replaced the 2015 is getting full LED interior lights. GSW was one of the nicest places to sit, I miss it a lot. 

Give it a little time you'll realize how much better it actually is. Took me a little while to realize that it wasn't necessarily brighter but just much better light overall. 

Love the color on the car :thumbup:


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

As of Sunday my car is 85% back to stock after swapping the PSS10 coils and OEM Bi-Xenons out for stock suspension and ugly halogens. Only things left over are the R20 Tinted Red LED tails, DeAutoKey interior LED's, and the rear GTI sway bar to swap with OEM. Oh, and to swap out the stock tires for garbage tires from a local tire shop and keep the stock tires that have quite a bit of meat on them remaining. 

Scheduled my buyback for 4/15 with less than 74k on the car. :thumbup:

Not driving it until day of buyback. I'm already 1600 miles past due for an oil change :laugh::screwy:


----------



## h103 (Nov 22, 2012)

chris86vw said:


> When I first got my 2015 I thought the leds were too much, too bright, basically same as you. By a month or two into ownership I hopped into my 2012 and was like WTF is this cave I'm in, the lighting is terrible and dated old tech..
> 
> The 2003 allroad that replaced the 2015 is getting full LED interior lights. GSW was one of the nicest places to sit, I miss it a lot.
> 
> ...


Thanks! Of the 6 DDs I've owned, this is my 4th dark blue one. 

Mathilde needed to have a thing done on Monday, and I couldn't wait around, so I had a 2017 Jetta as a loaner. It was after sundown when I got back to the dealership. The Jetta had red LEDs everywhere, and normal dome lights, not the blue-white LEDs. I felt like I was back home. The HVAC for dummies was also a relief. I'm feeling like SEL console is just too much of a learning curve for my muscle memory. So far, the only things that my brain has mapped are the HVAC temp/fan knobs, on/off button, and sync button, and the stereo on/off/volume knob. My brain is really resistant to mapping the rest of it. I'm used to just grabbing/stabbing things on my TDi console without ever taking my eyes off the road, not even a glance. When I'm done with this car, I may just buy a stand alone GPS unit, and opt for S or SE, or whatever they call the lower trim levels that year. I had the navi in my TDi, and it saved me in MANY cell signal dead zones when I took a rest stop or changed course, which caused my cell phone AGPS to lose its way. When I drove US129 in a friend's car on the way to HHI in November, we wound up using my trusty paper road map, because of dead zone AGPS problems through the *entirety* of GSMNP. Cell phone AGPS just isn't enough. Good thing I can read a map AND refold it too.

About the lights? They didn't look so awful during daylight at the dealership, but at night, they hurt. To me, my GSW's interior lights -- both controls and dome -- all look bluish. The dome lights seem even bluer than mercury lights. I'm one of the 15% of people who get migraines regularly, and the bluish end of "white" is a truly awful part of the color spectrum for folks who are extra-sensitive to light. Red light avoids disrupting night vision and keeps the facial muscles around the eyes relaxed -- good for everyone, SPECTACULAR for migraineurs. When things are done that "accidentally" accommodate disabilities, it's called "universal design." This blue "white" is NOT universal design.

Incandescent / halogen spectrum would be a godsend over this. The only overhead light in the entire car that doesn't hurt my eyes is the rear gate dome light. I wish all of them were identical to it ... plus red controls.


----------



## Lifelong Obsession (Jul 24, 2011)

They're alive! 

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/03/get-ready-line-2015-volkswagen-tdi/


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Does anyone know of VW managed to make and send to the US any 20*16*s that would also go up for sale?


----------



## jreed1337 (Jun 30, 2009)

man, 12,000 cars is a small pool. wonder if i'll still be able to snag one up here at some point.


----------



## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

Lifelong Obsession said:


> They're alive!
> 
> http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/03/get-ready-line-2015-volkswagen-tdi/


Interesting. I wonder how power, economy, and reliability are effected. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Looking for advice on handling overpayment. 
We turned our TDI in January. We paid it off right before the settlement, which resulted in overpayment according to our lender. The lender told us they would send us the check. But we never received it. So I called the lender and they said they paid VW by mistake. So I called VW, and they said they did receive it and will issue the payment to us. 
Long story short, we haven't received the check, and I've been getting the runaround. It's been months I've been trying to get this check. 
What else can I do? Anyone else have this problem? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

2ohgti said:


> Looking for advice on handling overpayment.
> We turned our TDI in January. We paid it off right before the settlement, which resulted in overpayment according to our lender. The lender told us they would send us the check. But we never received it. So I called the lender and they said they paid VW by mistake. So I called VW, and they said they did receive it and will issue the payment to us.
> Long story short, we haven't received the check, and I've been getting the runaround. It's been months I've been trying to get this check.
> What else can I do? Anyone else have this problem?
> ...


I would put it back on the lender you had. It was their mistake, they can slug it out to get the money returned to them.... which they should pay you on the spot.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

phospher5 said:


> I would put it back on the lender you had. It was their mistake, they can slug it out to get the money returned to them.... which they should pay you on the spot.


Thanks 

I'll give that a try. They admitted to the mistake. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## h103 (Nov 22, 2012)

Processing timing seems to be improving. I did my buyback on 23 March. I did the online acceptance of the Chase payment at about 1pm on the 25th. My payment already showed as pending with my bank (not Chase) on the morning of the 27th.

I just logged into my VWCredit account to see what its status is -- paid in full on 27 March. The VWCredit CSR I just contacted told me that my refund check should be mailed no later than 13 April.

Once I get my VWCredit refund, the extended warranty refund, and my Bosch settlement money -- they are all going straight onto the new loan, because HOLY COW! the extended warranty directly through VW is nearly twice the cost of the 3rd party extended warranty I had in 2013. OUCH!


----------



## Silver11TDI (May 14, 2013)

*Former owner of a TDi*

I'm stationed in Italy so my father-in-law, who was storing my car for me, returned it to Folsom, California VW this past Monday. I had my regional legal office draw up Powers Of Attorney documents assigning POA to my father-in-law for both me and my wife (since both names are on the title). He said that returning the car took less than ten minutes and the one lady that does it was very friendly. I've already got my money but still waiting for the loan to be paid off.

We brought our '07 Forester with us to Italy. It will be our only car until we return to the U.S. next year. We need something bigger these days since we've added two more children to the family since buying the JSW and the Forester. We'll be looking at a used Highlander or the like.


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

2ohgti said:


> Looking for advice on handling overpayment.
> We turned our TDI in January. We paid it off right before the settlement, which resulted in overpayment according to our lender. The lender told us they would send us the check. But we never received it. So I called the lender and they said they paid VW by mistake. So I called VW, and they said they did receive it and will issue the payment to us.
> Long story short, we haven't received the check, and I've been getting the runaround. It's been months I've been trying to get this check.
> What else can I do? Anyone else have this problem?
> ...


Agree with the above, talk to your lender, you overpaid them and they need to reimburse you. What they did with the money has nothing to do with you and I would think it will be very difficult to get the money from VW as they show a payment from the lender which they shouldn't have received so the standard procedure is to give the money back to the company that paid them, not some other party. Companies really don't want to get involved with giving over payments to some other party as if something is done wrong they are stuck in the middle.


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Ours is done, and the money is on the way. 

A bit of crazy occurred when they asked my spouse where the alloys were. Totally nit-picky. Spouse was able to clarify that they were in the basement, wearing nice snow tyres destined for the new GTI. Oh, ok, then. He was like, this was supposed to be a non-issue..... Apparently the dealers are supposed to put customers who want allowances through to VW to clear it ahead of time. 99% of them are approved (pretty much anything to do with wheels is not an issue), but you are technically supposed to clear it up front. 

What nuttery. If that asshat handn't stripped his car..... :banghead:


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

dmorrow said:


> Agree with the above, talk to your lender, you overpaid them and they need to reimburse you. What they did with the money has nothing to do with you and I would think it will be very difficult to get the money from VW as they show a payment from the lender which they shouldn't have received so the standard procedure is to give the money back to the company that paid them, not some other party. Companies really don't want to get involved with giving over payments to some other party as if something is done wrong they are stuck in the middle.


Called the lender and their story has changed. Now they are saying I didn't overpay and I'm wrong. At the same time saying they paid VW for overpayment. But we paid off the car before the buyback. I spoke to a manager too. VW keeps telling me they owe me the money, but getting the run around 

Am I missing something here on the payment? Does it have to do something with the buyback I received? No one is explaining. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## b0mb3r (Nov 9, 2006)

I just wanted to say that I turned my 2010 Jetta in last weekend and I can say that the whole process was smooth and painless. We received 14.6K for a 2010 Jetta with 84K on the clock in a so-so condition. My wife was sad to see her car go, but it was just too good of a deal to pass up.


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

2ohgti said:


> Called the lender and their story has changed. Now they are saying I didn't overpay and I'm wrong. At the same time saying they paid VW for overpayment. But we paid off the car before the buyback. I spoke to a manager too. VW keeps telling me they owe me the money, but getting the run around
> 
> Am I missing something here on the payment? Does it have to do something with the buyback I received? No one is explaining.
> 
> ...


try sending an email to [email protected] and file a complaint with the ftc https://www.ftc.gov/complaint ( those worked in hours for me )

failing that find the attorney covering your area in the long form https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/PSC/Approved Exhibit 3 - Long Form Notice.pdf page 26.


```
Elizabeth Cabraser, Lead Counsel
Lieff Cabraser Heimann & Bernstein, LLP
275 Battery Street, 29th Floor
San Francisco, CA 94111

Lynn Lincoln Sarko
Keller Rohrback L.L.P.
1201 Third Avenue, Suite 3200
Seattle, WA 98101

Steve W. Berman
Hagens Berman Sobol Shapiro LLP
1918 Eighth Avenue, Suite 3300
Seattle, WA 98101

Benjamin L. Bailey
Bailey and Glasser LLP
209 Capital Street
Charleston, WV 25301

David Boies
Boies Schiller and Flexner
333 Main Street
Armonk, NY 10504

Joseph F. Rice
Motley Rice LLC
28 Bridgeside Boulevard
Mt. Pleasant, SC 29464

Christopher A. Seeger
Seeger Weiss LLP
77 Water Street
New York, NY 10005

Jayne Conroy
Simmons Hanly Conroy, LLC
112 Madison Avenue
New York, NY 10016

Paul J. Geller
Robbins Geller Rudman and Dowd LLP
120 East Palmetto Park Road, Suite 500
Boca Raton, FL 33432

Robin L. Greenwald
Weitz & Luxenberg, P.C.
700 Broadway
New York, NY 10003

David Seabold Casey, Jr.
Casey Gerry Schenk Francavilla Blatt & Penfield
LLP
110 Laurel St
San Diego, CA 92101

James E. Cecchi
Carella Byrne Cecchi Olstein Brody & Agnello,
P.C.
5 Becker Farm Road
Roseland, NJ 07068

Roxanne Barton Conlin
Roxanne Conlin and Associates
319 7th Street, Suite 600
Des Moines, IA 50309

W. Daniel “Dee” Miles III
Beasley Allen Crow Methvin Portis & Miles
218 Commerce Street
P.O. Box 4160
Montgomery, AL 36103

Frank Mario Pitre
Cotchett Pitre & McCarthy LLP
San Francisco Airport Office Center
840 Malcolm Road, Suite 200
Burlingame, CA 94010

Rosemary M. Rivas
Finkelstein Thompson LLP
1 California Street, Suite 900
San Francisco, CA 94111

Michael D. Hausfeld
Hausfeld LLP
1700 K Street NW, Suite 650
Washington, DC 20006

Michael Everett Heygood
Heygood, Orr, Pearson
6363 North State Highway 161, Suite 450
Irving, TX 75038

Adam J. Levitt
Grant & Eisenhofer P.A.
30 North LaSalle Street, Suite 1200
Chicago, IL 60602

J. Gerard Stranch IV
Branstetter, Stranch & Jennings, PLLC
227 Second Avenue N, 4th Floor
Nashville, TN 37201

Roland K. Tellis
Baron Budd, P.C.
15910 Ventura Boulevard
Encino Plaza, Suite 1600
Encino, CA 91436

Lesley Elizabeth Weaver
Block & Leviton LLP
520 Third Street, Suite 108
Oakland, CA 94607
```
contact them and they are required to figure it out for you and work for you for free under the terms of the settlement.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

Aseras said:


> try sending an email to [email protected] and file a complaint with the ftc https://www.ftc.gov/complaint ( those worked in hours for me )
> 
> failing that find the attorney covering your area in the long form https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/PSC/Approved Exhibit 3 - Long Form Notice.pdf page 26.
> 
> ...


Awesome thanks 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

2ohgti said:


> Called the lender and their story has changed. Now they are saying I didn't overpay and I'm wrong. At the same time saying they paid VW for overpayment. *But we paid off the car before the buyback.* I spoke to a manager too. VW keeps telling me they owe me the money, but getting the run around
> 
> Am I missing something here on the payment? Does it have to do something with the buyback I received? No one is explaining.


Maybe I am not following all of this but if paid off the car before the buyback why would the lender have sent VW anything or even been involved with VW? If you paid off the car before the buyback you had the title to the car and owned it outright, then VW should have sent you the money to buy it from you?

I would ask the lender for all of the paperwork and the calculations that showed how much was owed on the car when you paid it off. Then compare these numbers with the payment you sent them.

If it shows you paid them more than was required I would ask for the extra money to be returned to you.


----------



## 2ohgti (Nov 8, 2004)

dmorrow said:


> Maybe I am not following all of this but if paid off the car before the buyback why would the lender have sent VW anything or even been involved with VW? If you paid off the car before the buyback you had the title to the car and owned it outright, then VW should have sent you the money to buy it from you?
> 
> I would ask the lender for all of the paperwork and the calculations that showed how much was owed on the car when you paid it off. Then compare these numbers with the payment you sent them.
> 
> If it shows you paid them more than was required I would ask for the extra money to be returned to you.


We over paid according to the lender. They told me on the phone, and said they paid VW by mistake. Then I called VW who said they did receive it and they would send us a check for that amount. Weeks go by and never received the payment. Then I call VW who apologized and again told me they will issue a check. Another week no check. I called VW again and they tell me they are going to escalate the issue and I'll get a call from their payment team. Another week, no call. Call back and VW denies everything. Call the lender, and their story changed too. 

But I do have a letter from the lender saying we were owed the money, the amount and they made a mistake paying VW. 

I think I will call and ask for the paperwork and calculations like you suggest. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

2ohgti said:


> We over paid according to the lender. They told me on the phone, and said they paid VW by mistake. Then I called VW who said they did receive it and they would send us a check for that amount. Weeks go by and never received the payment. Then I call VW who apologized and again told me they will issue a check. Another week no check. I called VW again and they tell me they are going to escalate the issue and I'll get a call from their payment team. Another week, no call. Call back and VW denies everything. Call the lender, and their story changed too.
> 
> *But I do have a letter from the lender saying we were owed the money, the amount and they made a mistake* paying VW.
> 
> ...


Everything in bold is all you need, you overpaid the lender and they owe you the money. What they did with the money or who else they paid isn't your problem.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Doesn't help the original poster, but maybe it will help someone else going forward.

The original poster doesn't appear to be the only one with issues arising from paying off the loan. Doing that mid-stream with the buyback is begging for messed up paperwork. So ... For anyone else in this situation, don't pay off the loan between the time of filing for buyback and the time you actually get the buyback done (whether this is by extra payments or lump sum or simply the payments naturally running out - doesn't matter). Either get through the whole process with a loan still remaining on the car, or pay it off completely and get all your paperwork in hand before filing for the buyback. Changing mid-stream seems to screw up VW's process.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

Went in early to Autobahn VW for my buyback appointment which was at 10am. But due to the 9am appointment flaking out, I was able to be taken care of 20 minutes before 10. The guy responsible for the buyback was very kind and helpful, presenting the offer to me which was consistent with my calculations based on mileage of 74,0xx. Signed some paperwork, gave me the chance to retrieve any belongings (though I had that done the weekend prior), took photos of the mileage and the head unit (to which he informed me that vehicles without head units will not be accepted for the buyback), and the staff even inquired on whether I want to take a look at what they have offering at the moment. 

Of course, as I'm in the market for a house, no new cars for me until I move in to one. Since I bank with Chase, I expect to receive my payment pretty soon. Furthermore, as I have made 5 payments since I had everything approved, the contractor also emphasized that I check my VW Credit account daily and once it is fully paid off, that I immediately contact them ASAP and have them mail out the check covering the last 5 payments, including interest. 

Lastly, he also let me know that I should present the receipt of the transaction to the local DMV to prevent any future headaches as the vehicle is no longer in my possession.

To add, they were also courteous enough to offer me a ride back to my house as it was done on a Saturday, but luckily I had a homie give me a ride back. 

Overall, a very pleasant experience to wash my hands off this polluting econobox. Hard to resist an offer of $21k, so with that I say GURL, BYE!


----------



## nightphorge (Mar 2, 2008)

It's probably been asked before but I don't have time to search right now....

I've got a 2011 golf TDI that I want to keep, but I haven't heard anything on a repair for the earlier models, and even if they come out with one, I suspect I won't want them to do it. If I opt to keep the car and they don't come up with an approved fix before the deadline, do I still get the ~$5200? I'm seeing a bunch of posts about the buyback value being based on mileage, but I thought it wasn't? If I did turn the car in, what are the limits on what I can strip off of it first? Only reason I love the car is for the diesel engine, so if I turn it in and they're not selling the diesels, I'm going to another brand for my replacement even though I've owned nothing but VW's for 20 years.


----------



## VT1.8T (Jul 28, 2003)

atomicalex said:


> Ours is done, and the money is on the way.
> 
> A bit of crazy occurred when they asked my spouse where the alloys were. Totally nit-picky. Spouse was able to clarify that they were in the basement, wearing nice snow tyres destined for the new GTI. Oh, ok, then. He was like, this was supposed to be a non-issue..... Apparently the dealers are supposed to put customers who want allowances through to VW to clear it ahead of time. 99% of them are approved (pretty much anything to do with wheels is not an issue), but you are technically supposed to clear it up front.
> 
> What nuttery. If that asshat handn't stripped his car..... :banghead:


We returned ours on saturday with 16" biolines with shot snow tires. They said nothing about the original 17" rims. Turn in was quick and coincidentally 6 years to the day we bought the car and 74k miles later, we will be getting $20,600, just $4,900 shy of the purchase price.


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

nightphorge said:


> It's probably been asked before but I don't have time to search right now....
> 
> I've got a 2011 golf TDI that I want to keep, but I haven't heard anything on a repair for the earlier models, and even if they come out with one, I suspect I won't want them to do it. If I opt to keep the car and they don't come up with an approved fix before the deadline, do I still get the ~$5200? I'm seeing a bunch of posts about the buyback value being based on mileage, but I thought it wasn't? If I did turn the car in, what are the limits on what I can strip off of it first? Only reason I love the car is for the diesel engine, so if I turn it in and they're not selling the diesels, I'm going to another brand for my replacement even though I've owned nothing but VW's for 20 years.


There is no news either way on a fix for Gen 1 diesels. But you can take the buyback and buy a new 2015 TDI from VW.

If you don't get a buyback or a fix, you don't get anything from VW. I'm not sure, but you may get a payment from Bosch.

My personal guess is that VW has a fix likely to be approved for Gen1, but they won't offer it unless they need it to reach 85% of all cars bought back or fixed.

I looked at other diesels, but the VW Gen3 is in its own league. The Cruze and BMW are nice enough, but really in a different price class.


----------



## greasecoyote (Nov 21, 2016)

Blonde Guy said:


> There is no news either way on a fix for Gen 1 diesels. But you can take the buyback and buy a new 2015 TDI from VW.
> 
> If you don't get a buyback or a fix, you don't get anything from VW. I'm not sure, but you may get a payment from Bosch.
> 
> ...


Why wouldn't they release the gen 1 fix? If they're legally required to buy back OR fix the cars, that would suffice as it's a fix, and it would entice owners who really didn't want to part with their car.


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

greasecoyote said:


> Why wouldn't they release the gen 1 fix? If they're legally required to buy back OR fix the cars, that would suffice as it's a fix, and it would entice owners who really didn't want to part with their car.


Suppose the only way to fix the gen 1 cars is very complex and expensive. If it's significantly more expensive than the average buyback payment for these cars, VW has an incentive to hold back on the fix until they have more data on whether they are going to reach that 85% get-em-off-the-road number that the US government has imposed. If it looks like they are not getting enough of the gen 1 cars via buyback, then they may make the fix available. They could also lure owners by increasing the amount of the buyback offers, and that still might be cheaper than a fix.

My SO is one of the holdouts. She loves her 2010 Jetta TDI. Currently, she is signed up for the fix option.

Of course, it's also possible that VW will never offer a gen 1 fix.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

Got paid last night!










Now I just have to wait a month possibly for VW Credit to give me a refund for the overpayments made through the process... all $2,216.72 of it  :facepalm:


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

greasecoyote said:


> Why wouldn't they release the gen 1 fix? If they're legally required to buy back OR fix the cars, that would suffice as it's a fix, and it would entice owners who really didn't want to part with their car.


 If CARB or EPA doesn't approve the fix, they can't release it. I'm not going to hand back the car for a third of what it's worth when I can still drive it for 8 more years.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

T5 Dave said:


> If CARB or EPA doesn't approve the fix, they can't release it. I'm not going to hand back the car for a third of what it's worth when I can still drive it for 8 more years.


No one is forcing you to hand back your car. No one is forcing a fix on you either.


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

T5 Dave said:


> If CARB or EPA doesn't approve the fix, they can't release it. I'm not going to hand back the car for a third of what it's worth when I can still drive it for 8 more years.


How exactly do you have a gen1 that's buyback amount is only worth 1/3 what you value it?

My 2010 had over 200K on the clock, had a failing DMF, had been rear ended , had scratches or dings on almost every panel and had a non functional radio, headlights, missing parts here and there and was trashed by 6 dogs who lived in the back and VW happily gave me $12k for it.

I didn't even drive mine for 6 months out of fear something would happen to it if it were in an accident.


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

Aseras said:


> How exactly do you have a gen1 that's buyback amount is only worth 1/3 what you value it?
> 
> My 2010 had over 200K on the clock, had a failing DMF, had been rear ended , had scratches or dings on almost every panel and had a non functional radio, headlights, missing parts here and there and was trashed by 6 dogs who lived in the back and VW happily gave me $12k for it.
> 
> I didn't even drive mine for 6 months out of fear something would happen to it if it were in an accident.


Maybe his is special. It's worth 200% more than any other TDI ever made ?


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

After 477 pages and nearly 12,000 posts since I originally created this thread...

Our journey with our 2012 Golf TDI ended a week ago Tuesday. (I've been slammed at work so forgot to update.)

As others stated, the turn in process was painless. But I still have strongly mixed feelings about it.

It's the best VW we've owned, hands own. Near zero issues apart from a reoccurring rattle in the sunglass holder area. 

It was still a very good car to drive, looked great inside and out, and would have given us many more years of service. But, like many others, the buyback deal was too rich to not take advantage and turn it in.

I sincerely hope that VW can find a way to fix and resell these cars. But in the meantime, we've moved on to a non VW group product.


----------



## Saggio44 (Mar 24, 2015)

Good to see this thread is dying...


----------



## bdc12 (May 27, 2015)

Saggio44 said:


> Good to see this thread is dying...


Dying for me now too. Dropped off my 2012 A3 on Friday. Buyback took all of 10 minutes. The claims rep was very friendly and I only had to sign two pieces of paper then I was on my way. Hopefully the money shows up soon so I can get a new car. 

I'll miss the A3. 57k trouble free miles and I always enjoyed driving it. The only out of pocket expense I had was a set of tires about 30K ago. Prepaid maintenance handled everything else. Even had the original wiper blade inserts, which were still in perfect shape.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

submitted 3.0l claim and uploaded paperwork today :thumbup: 

mixed feelings as going to miss the touareg... now to sell these wheels and stuff.


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/emissions/Final_2L _Gen2_Automatic_Approval.pdf

Boom!


----------



## SoLo2pointO (Jul 12, 2001)

Saggio44 said:


> Good to see this thread is dying...


Dying? The Bosch settlement was just approved by the courts, so all eligible TDI owners will receive a cash payout.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

SoLo2pointO said:


> Dying? The Bosch settlement was just approved by the courts, so all eligible TDI owners will receive a cash payout.


details: https://www.boschvwsettlement.com/en


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

gcodori said:


> https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/docs/emissions/Final_2L _Gen2_Automatic_Approval.pdf
> 
> Boom!


Gen2 Fix approved - DSG only - no manual.

Let the speculation start!


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

gcodori said:


> Gen2 Fix approved - DSG only - no manual.
> 
> Let the speculation start!


Still waiting on Gen 1, though. Hopefully they'll get something worked out, if not other than it-will-create-just-as-much-or-even-more-NOx-&-CO2-to-make-a-new-replacement-car-than-to-keep-the-old-ones-running. Sure, EPA and CARB are pissed, but in the big picture, the premature crushing of the vehicles and production of new units would create more global CO2/NOx than getting the old ones off the road. I just don't know if they're actually thinking about that at the moment or if they're factoring that into the fix solutions for Gen 1, 2, or 3.

Wait and see, I suppose.


----------



## BrewDude (Nov 3, 2000)

rich! said:


> submitted 3.0l claim and uploaded paperwork today :thumbup:
> 
> mixed feelings as going to miss the touareg... now to sell these wheels and stuff.


Submitted as well a few days ago for our 2011 Touareg TDI. Six years and 130,000 miles later she's been good to us, but the signs of aging are apparent. 

Been on the lookout for a 2016 Q5 TDI for a replacement. Have two of them on reserve from two different dealers in town just in case one of them falls through, that is if the Gen 2 fix is approved.


----------



## .yuk. (Oct 15, 2004)

Last I heard, no Gen1 fix. But what do I know.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

arstechnica.com said:


> *A year of digging through code yields “smoking gun” on VW, Fiat diesel cheats*
> Current US and EU emissions testing is insufficient to confirm compliance.
> 
> MEGAN GEUSS - 5/28/2017, 12:00 PM
> ...


source: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/0...missions-cheats-cracked-open-in-new-research/


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

When do we get our Bosch money???


----------



## someguy123 (Sep 30, 2005)

DUBPL8 said:


> When do we get our Bosch money???


None if they declare bankruptcy.


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

DUBPL8 said:


> When do we get our Bosch money???


https://www.boschvwsettlement.com/en

FAQ #15
When will I receive my payment?
If you have already filed a 2.0-liter or 3.0-liter claim that was approved in the 2.0-liter or 3.0-liter VW Settlements, you will automatically receive a payment from the Bosch Settlement once the Settlement is approved (if you do not request exclusion). The earliest this could take place is shortly after May 11, 2017. If you file a claim in one of the VW Settlements in the future, you will receive a payment from the Bosch Settlement after your claim in the VW Settlement is approved. If you do not file a claim in either of the VW Settlements, but file a claim in the Bosch Settlement, you will receive a payment as soon as your claim is approved.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

.yuk. said:


> Last I heard, no Gen1 fix. But what do I know.


Then why have they been storing all of these cars for all this time instead of going straight from the buyback appointment to the shredder? and yes, I know they've started flattening some of them. Certainly some (probably significant) portion of these cars will never be worth fixing and selling.

It's possible that they've been trying to find a fix, up to some point, but haven't yet made the decision to throw in the towel.

If they officially throw in the towel then any further storage of those cars is an expense straight off the bottom line, and the next thing that SHOULD happen is "See that lot full of cars over there? Squish them all."

It's interesting that the consent-decree document contained a general description of a proposed fix that was submitted by VW in January 201*6* which is only 4 months after the scandal broke, and here we are 16 months later and it hasn't been approved. To me it looks like VW took a guess at a fix (probably bigger LNT catalyst) and has not been able to make it work.


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

GoFaster said:


> Then why have they been storing all of these cars for all this time instead of going straight from the buyback appointment to the shredder? and yes, I know they've started flattening some of them. Certainly some (probably significant) portion of these cars will never be worth fixing and selling.
> 
> It's possible that they've been trying to find a fix, up to some point, but haven't yet made the decision to throw in the towel.
> 
> ...


The settlement required them to remove 85% from the road and have a repair for up to 15%. They are not permitted to export or resell the cars unless the repair is done. They need them around for auditing and compliance checks until they reach the magic number, or they have to offer more $$ to remove more cars from the road or develop a very expensive fix, or simply hope enough cars "die" from attrition ( accidents, not worth fixing or maintaining etc ).


----------



## dmorrow (Jun 9, 2000)

Aseras said:


> The settlement required them to remove 85% from the road and have a repair for up to 15%. They are not permitted to export or resell the cars unless the repair is done. They need them around for auditing and compliance checks until they reach the magic number, or they have to offer more $$ to remove more cars from the road or develop a very expensive fix, or simply hope enough cars "die" from attrition ( accidents, not worth fixing or maintaining etc ).


I think they must fix or repair 85% of them, not remove 85% from the road and have a repair for 15%.

Also, they can't export a complete car but they are welcome to export the parts or even use the parts here, just not sell a complete or operable car that isn't EPA compliant. I have not heard if they are actually going to do it but I could see the parts being worth more than the value of the crushed car.


----------



## h103 (Nov 22, 2012)

*Wow! If you had the extended warranty cancelled, make sure you follow up on it!*

When last we saw our hero in the metro-Cleveland, Ohio area, the dealership finance dept. loan officer who took my cancellation paperwork told me that I should be getting a check from Fidelity within 6-8 weeks. I've been incredibly busy with Normal Life Things, and just noticed I'm halfway into week #11.

I figured I would call the dealership first, before contacting the warranty company. After being told that finance guy got A PROMOTION to a different location LAST WEEK, and being forwarded around 3 other voicemail boxes, I finally fought my way to a live person who had the REAL correct person call me back -- an accountant in the dealership's internal accounting office, *NOT* a loan officer in the customer finance office.

My paperwork was held up >10 WEEKS because the finance guy told me everything else they need is handled internally between himself, my salesman, and the buyback clerk.

Somehow, the buyback clerk never gave the finance guy a copy of my notarized paperwork, who just *NEVER BOTHERED* asking the buyback clerk for it, and the accounting office didn't even know there was something amiss to check out.

This afternoon, I emailed the notarized PDF I previously uploaded to claims.vwgoa.com to the accountant. She told me that she'll process it today, backdated to the date on the cancellation form they've been sitting on this whole time; Fidelity will send the refund *TO THE DEALERSHIP*, and the dealership will cut me a check -- should have it by tomorrow, and that it will be flagged to cut the check to me as soon as they have the confirmation of refund from Fidelity.

When I told her that the finance guy told me that Fidelity would mail the check to me directly, she told me that the entire finance dept doesn't know how it actually works, that Fidelity always sends the refund to the dealership, and once they have it, the only delay is somebody in accounting verifying the refund and cutting a check.

I'm annoyed enough that VW is guilty of Why I Don't Have My TDi Any More; now add an incompetent dealer group -- the loan office for VW is in the Subaru building; the cashier's cage for the accounting office is in the Toyota building. Talk about a way to *FURTHER* destroy customer confidence.

10.5 weeks waiting for something that will now take ... about 24 *hours*.

-----------

If your Fidelity warranty refund is late -- don't bother calling Fidelity until you've made sure your dealership really did what they were supposed to do. I have no clue whether Fidelity really does direct refunds for some dealerships' customers, but it seems that is not the arrangement that they made with the dealership I used.


----------



## Rugrat Anklebiter (Dec 5, 2000)

h103 said:


> *Wow! If you had the extended warranty cancelled, make sure you follow up on it!*
> 
> When last we saw our hero in the metro-Cleveland, Ohio area, the dealership finance dept. loan officer who took my cancellation paperwork told me that I should be getting a check from Fidelity within 6-8 weeks. I've been incredibly busy with Normal Life Things, and just noticed I'm halfway into week #11.
> 
> ...


FWIW, My extended warranty check was mailed directly to me. It took about 4 weeks to process from the day I submitted the original paperwork to the dealership. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


----------



## h103 (Nov 22, 2012)

Rugrat Anklebiter said:


> FWIW, My extended warranty check was mailed directly to me. It took about 4 weeks to process from the day I submitted the original paperwork to the dealership.


I wonder if each dealership must have had their own arrangements prior to VW taking over the extended warranty options.

This has been ridiculous. The accountant got my email near the end of the day, so she set it aside for first thing in the morning.

She called me at 8:34 this morning to let me know that Fidelity had processed the refund to the dealership, the dealership had already cut me a check, and it was waiting for me at the dealership's cashier.

Barely a half hour to process this. ::head-desk::


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

appt made :thumbup: one month left


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Wonder when we'll get their (MY) $$$?
https://www.boschvwsettlement.com/en

*UPDATE: The Order granting Final Approval of the Bosch Class Action Settlement was filed with the Court on May 17, 2017.
*

A $327.5 million settlement has been reached with Bosch, the supplier of the emissions software that was installed in some 2.0-liter and 3.0-liter Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche diesel vehicles. The Bosch Settlement follows similar settlements with Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche (called the “2.0-liter Settlement” and the “3.0-liter Settlement”, or together, the “VW Settlements”).

The Bosch Settlement is in addition to the VW Settlements and provides additional compensation to vehicle owners, former owners, lessees and former lessees, including reseller dealers, who filed or will file approved claims in the VW Settlements. The Bosch Settlement also provides the opportunity for compensation to VW Class Members who opted out of or who are otherwise not participating in the VW Settlements.

If you filed or choose to file a claim in the VW Settlements, you do not need to file a claim in the Bosch Settlement. If your VW Settlement claim is approved, you will automatically receive a check in the mail from the Bosch Settlement.

If you do not file a claim in the VW Settlements, or if you chose to opt-out of either or both of them, you still can file a separate claim in the Bosch Settlement.

If you have excluded yourself from the VW Settlements, you can still file a claim in the Bosch Settlement until August 15, 2017. If you are an Eligible Seller and missed the Identification Deadline in the 2.0-liter Settlement, or if you are an Eligible Former Owner and do not file a claim in the 3.0-liter Settlement, you have until May 1, 2017 to file a claim in the Bosch Settlement. If you do not file a claim in either of the VW Settlements, you can still file a claim in the Bosch Settlement until December 31, 2019.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

Got $350 Bosch check today. :thumbup:


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Sump said:


> Got $350 Bosch check today.


Same here

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

USPS Informed Delivery shows that I have an envelope coming from Bosch today. Woot!!!!!


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Still waiting on that one.

The GTI is fabs!


----------



## cpermd (Oct 25, 2002)

So who else is keeping theirs until Dec 2018?

I still love mine:heart:

Her name is Scooter, just like all my other diesel VWs.


----------



## vw_nc_dude (Jan 29, 2012)

Received the Bosch check two days ago :thumbup:


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

I got one Bosch check for one car, but the second hasn't arrived yet. Does anyone know which order they're being sent out? 2015 to 2009? Alphabetical?


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

T5 Dave said:


> I got one Bosch check for one car, but the second hasn't arrived yet. Does anyone know which order they're being sent out? 2015 to 2009? Alphabetical?


Maybe order of original claim? Our was a 2014 and my last name starts with S so MY or Surname wouldn't put me at the front of any list.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

Sump said:


> Maybe order of original claim? Our was a 2014 and my last name starts with S so MY or Surname wouldn't put me at the front of any list.


Based on what I've seen from users at TDIclub, the ones who had their buybacks processed early on are receiving the checks first. 

Since I had mine done in mid-April, looks like I'll be waiting a while before I get mine. Oh well, patience is a virtue.


----------



## jdiaz (Feb 16, 2009)

Got our check in the mail yesterday. Buyback date was 12/27/2016.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

both checks arrived. Not sure when first one came since I didn't check po box for a few days but the second came today, both dated 6/13. Moved since turning the cars in so glad they found me


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

chris86vw said:


> both checks arrived. Not sure when first one came since I didn't check po box for a few days but the second came today, both dated 6/13. Moved since turning the cars in so glad they found me


When was your buyback?


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

DUBPL8 said:


> When was your buyback?


Jan 30th and feb 6th I think, forget exactly.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

chris86vw said:


> Jan 30th and feb 6th I think, forget exactly.


That makes sense. I'll just have to keep waiting for mine


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Got my Bosch check a few days ago as well! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## andyA6 (Nov 10, 2000)

Bosch check came in a few days ago. Nice to have another treefiddy lol


----------



## feels_road (Jan 27, 2005)

someguy123 said:


> None if they declare bankruptcy.


That is true, but also highly unlikely (IMO), as far as Bosch is concerned and this rather meager settlement.

Speaking of which, many months later, crickets on my parts...


----------



## b0mb3r (Nov 9, 2006)

this TDI keeps on giving, a week ago I received a check from Bosch...


----------



## Rugrat Anklebiter (Dec 5, 2000)

b0mb3r said:


> this TDI keeps on giving, a week ago I received a check from Bosch...


Ditto. $350. =)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

No Bosch check yet, but VW keeps sending me airbag recall notices and they've owned my car since February.:screwy:


----------



## rick8018 (Jan 3, 2001)

Yeah, I got an airbag recall notice today and promptly chunked it in File 13. If I remember it was from some federal department. Not sure about that. Sangria on a hot day is good. In any case, our two TDI's went to VW in December. The Bosch checks arrived a couple of weeks ago. Damn, I wish I owned 10 of them now.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

rick8018 said:


> Yeah, I got an airbag recall notice today and promptly chunked it in File 13. If I remember it was from some federal department. Not sure about that. Sangria on a hot day is good. In any case, our two TDI's went to VW in December. The Bosch checks arrived a couple of weeks ago. Damn, I wish I owned 10 of them now.


There's a few examples of people who do and did..... cashed out their retirement finds and bought dozens of TDI's.... most of the time they made 20-30% return on the deal, not including the Bosch deal....


----------



## Caruser4 (Apr 15, 2008)

Just finding out about the Bosch check

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

welp, 2nd try this time. Getting ready for the drop off tomorrow. She'll be missed (still no replacement but right now leaning to order a durango srt)


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

eace: (process was a pita - person didn't have internet access)










now for warranty and bosch checks...


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

Gen 1 fix coming:

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1AC2F3

Loses 2MPG (likely more in the real world), no details beyond that... and no info on warranty yet either...


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

E CODE said:


> Gen 1 fix coming:
> 
> http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1AC2F3
> 
> Loses 2MPG (likely more in the real world), no details beyond that... and no info on warranty yet either...


It has previously been reported that some of the older cars are being crushed.










Which brings up the question of, has VW been selectively crushing the cars that were the worst candidates for resale (e.g. worst condition) so far, since they were in the process of getting a fix approved so that they can resell some of them?


----------



## Deezel Boy (Nov 26, 1999)

Any car, bought back by VWOA, that had 150k+ was most likely crushed. Mostly the old, pre 2010, cars have met that crusher fate by now.

NOW, what about GEN2 MANUAL cars!?!? I really want to keep my '12 passat 6spd and get it fixed! I do not want to buy another car VWOA!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

Waiting to see if the Gen 1 fix is good...


----------



## Phil Pugliese (May 18, 2000)

Deezel Boy said:


> Any car, bought back by VWOA, that had 150k+ was most likely crushed. Mostly the old, pre 2010, cars have met that crusher fate by now.
> 
> NOW, what about GEN2 MANUAL cars!?!? I really want to keep my '12 passat 6spd and get it fixed! I do not want to buy another car VWOA!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


My 2010 w/150K and front end was surely crushed.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

E CODE said:


> Gen 1 fix coming:
> 
> http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1AC2F3


But but but dozens in this thread exclaimed this was impossible or they never would have cheated, and there is NO way to modify them....:screwy:




> Loses 2MPG (likely more in the real world), no details beyond that... and no info on warranty yet either...


Not sure it would be more in the real world considering that most people got more than 2mpg above the EPA rating. So if the loss is based on the EPA rating and not real world then most should still do better than the old EPA rating. 


The warranty guidelines, I am forgetting exactly what they are, were laid out in the initial settlement. 


I really do miss my 2015, will probably pick up a fixed one sometime later, for now loving my allroad other than the sub 20mpg


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

chris86vw said:


> But but but dozens in this thread exclaimed this was impossible or they never would have cheated, and there is NO way to modify them....:screwy:


I always thought it was possible... I mean, you throw enough money at anything and it will eventually work. I just thought that it wouldn't be financially viable, new hardware, labor, warranty.... VW stands to lose a lot on each car they fix. I wold guess that they believe that doing all of that, and selling the fixed ones still nets them a positive value in the end, I guess.


----------



## Deezel Boy (Nov 26, 1999)

chris86vw said:


> I really do miss my 2015, will probably pick up a fixed one sometime later, for now loving my allroad other than the sub 20mpg


No sh!t! After I had my B4 tdi for about 5 years I bought a 2004 Audi A4 Ultrasport quatro 3.0 6sp manual, loved that car, but every time I got in the car I cringed, premium gas and about 20mpg sucked a$$! esp considering my b4 passat tdi avgd about 47-48 mpg over those 5 years!! I equated the A4 to the rich girlfriend, always needing expensive stuff/food! lol

I sold the audi after about 2 years and bought a mk5 jetta tdi, have not had a petrol car since, and I don't think I can until mileage of gassers is up past 40mpg, and no I don't want some crappy looking hybrid JUNK!


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

chris86vw said:


> Not sure it would be more in the real world considering that most people got more than 2mpg above the EPA rating. So if the loss is based on the EPA rating and not real world then most should still do better than the old EPA rating.


However, the EPA rating was based on running in a low emission mode, while the better real world economy was with the emission controls reduced. Presumably, the fix ensures that it will run in low emission mode all the time, so real world economy will presumably be closer to the new EPA rating, rather than better.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

tjl said:


> However, the EPA rating was based on running in a low emission mode, while the better real world economy was with the emission controls reduced.


Not necessarily.

Remember EPA fuel economy tests are done actually driving around and self reported by the manufacture, they are not done in an emissions test cell which would have put it in the low emissions mode. Sure VW could have disabled the defeat for their fuel economy tests but there doesn't seem to be anything that has pointed to them doing that. That would be a whole second set of complaints issued against them since that would then mean they lied about the fuel economy of what was actually being sold.


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

chris86vw said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> Remember EPA fuel economy tests are done actually driving around and self reported by the manufacture, they are not done in an emissions test cell which would have put it in the low emissions mode. Sure VW could have disabled the defeat for their fuel economy tests but there doesn't seem to be anything that has pointed to them doing that. That would be a whole second set of complaints issued against them since that would then mean they lied about the fuel economy of what was actually being sold.


EPA fuel economy tests are specified to be done on a dyno, which would cause the "cheater" cars to be in low-emissions-for-test mode, apparently resulting in lower fuel economy than what most drivers will find in real world driving in high-emissions mode (and people don't complain or sue when they get better than advertised fuel economy). A fix for these cars would keep them in low-emissions mode all the time, eliminating the possibility of better real world fuel economy because of a high-emissions mode.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/how_tested.shtml


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

huh, interesting, I Thought they did real world testing. good to know. :thumbup:



I stand by what I Said though and real world I am willing to bet they retain better than previous EPA ratings.


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

https://www.consumerreports.org/car...r-older-volkswagen-polluting-diesel-vehicles/ has some information on the modifications.



Nick Kurczewski in Consumer Reports said:


> Mechanical fixes include the replacement of an emission catalyst and, for 2009 model year vehicles, the replacement of the glow plug control module and diesel particulate filter.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Owners should not notice any adverse changes, VW said, to reliability, durability, or performance (including 0-60 mph time, top speed, etc.) Still, there will be some noticeable differences, particularly regarding fuel economy, where owners may see a loss of up to 2 mpg, depending on their driving routine and habits. VW said engine noise will be louder, “specifically during moderate acceleration.”


----------



## Gael78II (Jul 16, 2014)

Welp, guess now I'll have to decide to keep as-is, buyback, or get it fixed.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

E CODE said:


> Gen 1 fix coming:
> 
> http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1AC2F3
> 
> Loses 2MPG (likely more in the real world), no details beyond that... and no info on warranty yet either...





> The only vehicles without a fix are manual 2012-2014 Passat diesels.


Manuel is not happy .


----------



## maac311 (Apr 23, 2003)

I am quite happy with this news. 1) It would have been a shame to see perfectly good cars destroyed, and 2) I'll be in the market in a couple of years for another set of wheels, and I'd love a manual TDI. Beetle especially.


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro...el-fuel-economy-and-performance-in-cheat-mode describes what CR did in 2015 to try to get TDI engine cars to stay in low-emissions mode and what results they got.

Of course, the changes could involve other software changes (besides eliminating high-emissions mode) as well as the known hardware changes, so actual changes in performance and economy remain to be seen.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Wonder if I could pick one up real cheap now...


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

probably has been covered by asking anyway.
If I were to pick up a 2012+ q7 TDI, can I claim for cash payment if i register it in my name currently and get it fixed? Do I split with the dealer?
How long do I have before the offer expires? (September 2018 is it?)
Basically my hope is, buy it for 40k, get it fixed and get paid 10k...


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

Still no Bosch check


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

DUBPL8 said:


> Still no Bosch check


Have you completed your buyback? I got mine a month + ago, turned in the TDI back in December.


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> Have you completed your buyback? I got mine a month + ago, turned in the TDI back in December.


Yep, back in mid-April.


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

DUBPL8 said:


> Still no Bosch check


Still none here either and I did my buyback in February.


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

Just got mine, buyback was early march.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Looks like my 2015 was already updated, sold back to a dealership, and in the hands of a new owner already.

Friend stumbled across it on cars.com, confirmed the vin and sent me the link but since it was sold no pics up. I wanted to see them since I had vinyl wrapped one mirror and never go around to doing the other and wanted to see if that was removed :laugh:. I'd also blacked out the front and rear emblems.


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

I got an e-mail from VW with the following link to the information on the fix for Gen 1 TDI.

http://click.vw.com/wf/click?upn=-2B3kP8bZRioCizzb2-2BFEHbkfERULwSRTBpDy-2FO7diZbhx3MEf9k3YUZP4vLHUmS3ZbTaM1Hc9KqEOhI1U-2FtbGFGssU0LHWEZBjZT4-2BkB82duIBYtTnpqSdVI5DLsX6FPXKUzJJS4Cl85-2FqLQ3f168uCtfvZ7Ochy9n-2FZ26AAT41MDkAZXR5pmxPbPB2bZ0FF4jTAR544dPabKXpph-2FaYwrS6ND3R-2F1BPyPGcQPnDYAnQSkRUDjaS8dSa9JVxoPMZ31k1s8LlmXl3B7s6Z2GrNaH7E-2FpRwJpcHZBxxqSfN94MC-2BKO53nofIVplfoeIkZsTUt-2FZNQ4f-2BH5JLEribnbgLZvnAcXbS-2FYxdzO9o3O-2BcqXDKVIcpNJPooBbtN24C7-2Bbwa99Ulf7SBDelQOH6LEI7IbM6SiPbPlxJ82svQmCSmlg5flUk-2BbAW8mYS2vXXF-2F60bW8jVy4QpfNHwNfF72Xx6w1Gm3MTuXEATy-2FURERQIgKiwbMAQhAmRCI7CmpGECUiYbJzDDZW41zLhXSDzafnaMmtPCQME0RbD9m8AOi2MuWRcoq-2FYkGHays93n3N6WT_GEV-2BAFyqktTdCjRRTO4u2BNuGrBW7PNO6xj1cWb3K01CPiWaI9BZ4PdX-2FJb3rRlnt6MBVLOzwGc6dV5kNZPMm5nduE15Qlhpqa2xcoMon9AJNJj5eLgzT-2FZXkxOVtV0Dgx82rmnX76obG4uVHVsmXWjXox9fk12LwfwUNgZMWsVMwjwsKEDxbhZENARxzjsu52hMNxllpqQ9AfuzbppaP8f-2FI22yWF92owHXpHzV2ns-3D


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

Blonde Guy said:


> I got an e-mail from VW with the following link to the information on the fix for Gen 1 TDI.
> 
> http://click.vw.com/wf/click?upn=-2B3kP8bZRioCizzb2-2BFEHbkfERULwSRTBpDy-2FO7diZbhx3MEf9k3YUZP4vLHUmS3ZbTaM1Hc9KqEOhI1U-2FtbGFGssU0LHWEZBjZT4-2BkB82duIBYtTnpqSdVI5DLsX6FPXKUzJJS4Cl85-2FqLQ3f168uCtfvZ7Ochy9n-2FZ26AAT41MDkAZXR5pmxPbPB2bZ0FF4jTAR544dPabKXpph-2FaYwrS6ND3R-2F1BPyPGcQPnDYAnQSkRUDjaS8dSa9JVxoPMZ31k1s8LlmXl3B7s6Z2GrNaH7E-2FpRwJpcHZBxxqSfN94MC-2BKO53nofIVplfoeIkZsTUt-2FZNQ4f-2BH5JLEribnbgLZvnAcXbS-2FYxdzO9o3O-2BcqXDKVIcpNJPooBbtN24C7-2Bbwa99Ulf7SBDelQOH6LEI7IbM6SiPbPlxJ82svQmCSmlg5flUk-2BbAW8mYS2vXXF-2F60bW8jVy4QpfNHwNfF72Xx6w1Gm3MTuXEATy-2FURERQIgKiwbMAQhAmRCI7CmpGECUiYbJzDDZW41zLhXSDzafnaMmtPCQME0RbD9m8AOi2MuWRcoq-2FYkGHays93n3N6WT_GEV-2BAFyqktTdCjRRTO4u2BNuGrBW7PNO6xj1cWb3K01CPiWaI9BZ4PdX-2FJb3rRlnt6MBVLOzwGc6dV5kNZPMm5nduE15Qlhpqa2xcoMon9AJNJj5eLgzT-2FZXkxOVtV0Dgx82rmnX76obG4uVHVsmXWjXox9fk12LwfwUNgZMWsVMwjwsKEDxbhZENARxzjsu52hMNxllpqQ9AfuzbppaP8f-2FI22yWF92owHXpHzV2ns-3D


Hmm, that says automatic transmission, so I wonder if this fix was approved for manuals... also noticed that the new extended warranty was either 10yr/120k miles from original delivery or 4yr/48k from modification. Does this mean if I had kept my Golf and had the fix installed (at around 115k miles) my new "extended" warranty would be all of 5000 miles? That would suck.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Green Hare said:


> Hmm, that says automatic transmission, so I wonder if this fix was approved for manuals... also noticed that the new extended warranty was either 10yr/120k miles from original delivery or 4yr/48k from modification. Does this mean if I had kept my Golf and had the fix installed (at around 115k miles) my new "extended" warranty would be all of 5000 miles? That would suck.


No. Your warranty would be 4 yrs or 48,000 miles from the date of modification.

I don't know why this is so hard to understand. You said it yourself: it's "either 10yr/120k miles from original delivery or 4yr/48k from modification". The word in between the two cases is OR. You would burn through the 10 yr 120,000 mi case quickly, but the other case still applies. I don't know why this is so hard to understand (you're not the only one to misinterpret this).


----------



## atomicalex (Feb 2, 2001)

Oliver Schmidt is going to jail.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

atomicalex said:


> Oliver Schmidt is going to jail.


Interesting, serves him right for buying up all that land in NV he was going to sell for a tidy profit as seashore villas, the greatest real estate swindle of all time my ass..........

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/04/business/volkswagen-diesel-oliver-schmidt.html <-I wonder how much VW is paying him for this.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

*OBD Faults included in warranty?*

Interesting paragraph on page 9 "Parts covered by extended warranty:"


> The OnBoard Diagnostic (OBD) system, any malfunctions detected by the On-Board Diagnostic (OBD) system other than those related to the transmission.


Does that mean if the swirl motor in the intake manifold dies and produces a fault code that the $1500 repair for the new manifold is included in this warranty?


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

T5 Dave said:


> Interesting paragraph on page 9 "Parts covered by extended warranty:"
> 
> 
> Does that mean if the swirl motor in the intake manifold dies and produces a fault code that the $1500 repair for the new manifold is included?


If it's the engine or connected to the engine (intake, turbo and exhaust) it's covered.

A better question would be:

What "check engine" codes (other than transmission) would NOT be covered?

I know the MFI shows blown headlights, etc but that's not the OBD2 check engine stuff.

How about the radiator and cooling fans? They're part of the engine...

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## Deezel Boy (Nov 26, 1999)

gcodori said:


> If it's the engine or connected to the engine (intake, turbo and exhaust) it's covered.
> 
> A better question would be:
> 
> What "check engine" codes (other than transmission) would NOT be covered?


*LOVE this part too...

"Conflicts concerning the warranty are to be resolved in favor of the consumer"

That line was at the bottom of the warranty information section of the guide on pg 9.

New thread on "fix" reviews, etc once it starts getting rolled out? Someone start one and put a link here.
The wifes letter she got said that the dealer can start making appts for the gen1 fix on 8/11. I want to call them early as possible! Faster it's fixed, faster we'll get the $5400! :thumbup::thumbup::laugh::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

Deezel Boy said:


> *LOVE this part too...
> 
> "Conflicts concerning the warranty are to be resolved in favor of the consumer"
> 
> ...


 It's a good warranty. 

You simply have to play the leg bone song in your head. 

"The swirl flaps are connected to the intake. The intakes connected to the plenninum. The plenninums connected to the long block. And the warranty covers that."

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

I can tell you from experience that something as far out as the throttle body is not considered to be part of the powertrain...... even though the engine will not run correctly without this part. Maybe someone who works for a VW service dept could chime in to give people a better idea of this warranty extension. 

The experience I am speaking of(if you're curious) is from when I had a throttle body go on a 2012 GLI, it was just out of the bumber to bumper warranty, but still in the powertrain warranty. It was not covered- though the dealership pushed through a steep discount because I was just past the warranty. This happened in On. Canada, but I would imagine things are similar south of the border.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

phospher5 said:


> I can tell you from experience that something as far out as the throttle body is not considered to be part of the powertrain...... even though the engine will not run correctly without this part. Maybe someone who works for a VW service dept could chime in to give people a better idea of this warranty extension.


This is not an extension of the powertrain warranty, it isn't even an extension of the emissions warranty (despite the name) which is even more limiting than the first one on an original vehicle. It is specifically saying if this part can fail and cause a check engine light its covered. 

So your experience was based on specific working in a warranty that does not apply to this situation. 

Also these are TDIs...


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

GoFaster said:


> No. Your warranty would be 4 yrs or 48,000 miles from the date of modification.
> 
> I don't know why this is so hard to understand. You said it yourself: it's "either 10yr/120k miles from original delivery or 4yr/48k from modification". The word in between the two cases is OR. You would burn through the 10 yr 120,000 mi case quickly, but the other case still applies. I don't know why this is so hard to understand (you're not the only one to misinterpret this).


Well from what he typed one would not be able to determine which one it was. The wording could have said it would be the LESSER of the two and then the or would mean for him that it was the 10/120.

But the wording (he didn't post) is very clear and says greater, you are right that it is clear and there shouldn't be confusion. It is possibly due to people only seeing parts of the actual conditions reposted in places missing key parts. 

The or is not clear at all, the key is the greater.


----------



## phospher5 (Jun 21, 2012)

chris86vw said:


> This is not an extension of the powertrain warranty, it isn't even an extension of the emissions warranty (despite the name) which is even more limiting than the first one on an original vehicle. It is specifically saying if this part can fail and cause a check engine light its covered.
> 
> So your experience was based on specific working in a warranty that does not apply to this situation.
> 
> Also these are TDIs...


Thanks for clearing that up. someone above was speaking differently about what connects to the engine and so on.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

phospher5 said:


> I can tell you from experience that something as far out as the throttle body is not considered to be part of the powertrain...... even though the engine will not run correctly without this part.


That's some BS, if you asked me. Especially when ordering a longblock includes the throttlebody. This is why so many people hate used car ownership. I'm almost surprised there isn't a bigger market for extended warranties that act like a *true* bumper to bumper warranty, but I guess it's not needed. Anybody who is willing to pay extra for that is the kind of person who is OK with just doing a new lease every 39 months anyway. Then you're always under the bumper to bumper warranty, assuming an automaker with a 4 year, 50k mile B2B, for example. Even a 3/36 will cover most people, but a 4/50 will cover the people who do a 39 month, 15k mile/year lease.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

AZGolf said:


> That's some BS, if you asked me.


Not really, the *LIMITED* powertrain warranty has very specific items that it covers, it should be a surprise to no one that not all items are included. Depending on what year the car was bought and whether this was the new car or a used/extended powertrain the items covered may also be different. 

Just like the factory emissions warranty has very specific items and conditions that must be met for it to apply.

It might suck, but failure to read the warranty doesn't make it BS. 



> Especially when ordering a longblock includes the throttlebody.
> 
> 
> > Also not necessarily true, this varies by engine and really the day of the week. Sometimes those engines come with certain sensors too that aren't covered under the powertrain warranty.


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

I just replaced a sensor in the intake/heat exchange on my 2013 passat. It three a code and lit the check engine light.

If it's a sensor it'll most likely trigger the CEL. 

On a more troubling note, the fix describes expanding the OBD2 to check more parameters. Most likely to check for future cheats.

Do we think that this will also make it easier to spot people who program the ECU to tune out the fix?

What does this wording mean for those who take the fix and turn around to remove it?

Will they be more vigilant in order to invalidate the warranty?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

gcodori said:


> *On a more troubling note, the fix describes expanding the OBD2 to check more parameters*. Most likely to check for future cheats.
> 
> Do we think that this will also make it easier to spot people who program the ECU to tune out the fix?
> 
> ...


Do you have a link or note on what section of what document the bolded is in? 

OBD2 is regulated by standards, they can't just add parameters to an ecu because the tools to read them would not be equipped to handle them. 
This is why generic OBD 2 can be pretty basic while a manufactures system of diagnostics may have more faults and be more thorough 

They adjusted thresholds that would result in a fault being set, that isn't adding parameters. Is that what you meant? 


Without going into too much detail the easiest way to turn the fix software off would be to just put in an old software level, depending on ecu and also tuner this is easier said than done. Putting in an old version would alert the dealer/VW on two levels one being the software level and the second being a change in checksums that the majority of the ecus affected are able to display and will set a flag as modified at VW. Even using the same software level but turning back on the cheat would change this and flag the ecu. Bascially if you went back to a dealer with reverted to cheat software they would know in almost all cases.

As far as invalidating warranty, VW isn't very vigilant with it. Dealers are, not VW, there is a difference. Dealers will likely have little to no trouble putting in emissions warranty claims on updated cars, VW would not want the push back from that. So since dealers will get paid pretty much no questions asked they will likely not try to deny claims on their side. Now if you did bring a car in for warranty for with the cheat software reinstalled then hopefully the dealer and VW will deny you of a claim. Heck if I was at VW I'd probably report it to the EPA, they don't need to be liable for saying they fix a car, that a customer then reverted.


----------



## gcodori (Apr 27, 2005)

chris86vw said:


> Do you have a link or note on what section of what document the bolded is in?
> 
> OBD2 is regulated by standards, they can't just add parameters to an ecu because the tools to read them would not be equipped to handle them.
> This is why generic OBD 2 can be pretty basic while a manufactures system of diagnostics may have more faults and be more thorough
> ...


I don't have the gen1 docs, but for mine (gen2) the changes to the OBD2 are great enough to put a disclaimer that code readers may not work after modification. 

On-board diagnostic (OBD) system changes – Your vehicle’s OBD 
system will be modified and certain emission thresholds within the 
OBD system will be adjusted. These thresholds set new malfunction 
detection limits that may be above what inspection and 
maintenance regulators are familiar with and may reduce the 
effectiveness of the OBD system in detecting malfunctions as a 
result of these changes. We don’t expect you will have any issues 
with the ability of your vehicle to pass the inspection and 
maintenance (Smog Check) test. The extended warranty coverage 
outlined in this booklet offers additional protection if your vehicle is 
still covered under warranty at the time of inspection. These 
changes should not be noticeable to a driver and do not impact 
driving characteristics.

So it looks like they want to look above and beyond the standard check engine error in terms of smog checks (my smog check consists of hooking up a reader and checking for codes).

They are looking for cheaters either VW or owners. My guess is that someone must have said "what if people reverse the fix?"

So I guess they will check more parameters to make sure it's running stock EPA approved parameters.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

gcodori said:


> I just replaced a sensor in the intake/heat exchange on my 2013 passat. It three a code and lit the check engine light.
> 
> If it's a sensor it'll most likely trigger the CEL.
> 
> ...


Abso-fukin-lutely!!!!

You can bet you are losing that wicked warranty if you tune afterwards. Gauranteed.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

gcodori said:


> I don't have the gen1 docs, but for mine (gen2) the changes to the OBD2 are great enough to put a disclaimer that code readers may not work after modification.
> 
> On-board diagnostic (OBD) system changes – Your vehicle’s OBD
> system will be modified and certain emission thresholds within the
> ...



Whoever was tasked with writing that doesn't seem to understand how OBDII works

The malfunction detection limits are just in the "tuning" you can't read them with a scan tool so that wouldn't change how any scan tools works. You should be able to read a value, so if something is on a scale of 1-100 and previously anything over a reading of say 30 set a fault/failed the readiness test and they change it to anything over 20 will fail. the tool can still read 20, it could read 20 before. No where does it output that the threshold was changed from 30-20. And I don't know of any emissions testing that actually looks at a value like that. This could change how a technician determined if there was a problem but VW is the one issuing that information and on a dealer level they would have the updated specs of what to look for. Outside the dealer depends on where they get their information.


Basically it is not an issue.


----------



## tjl (Mar 24, 2001)

chris86vw said:


> Without going into too much detail the easiest way to turn the fix software off would be to just put in an old software level, depending on ecu and also tuner this is easier said than done. Putting in an old version would alert the dealer/VW on two levels one being the software level and the second being a change in checksums that the majority of the ecus affected are able to display and will set a flag as modified at VW. Even using the same software level but turning back on the cheat would change this and flag the ecu. Bascially if you went back to a dealer with reverted to cheat software they would know in almost all cases.



Of course, if the changed hardware gives values that are not expected by the cheater software, then putting the cheater software back in on a car with the hardware changes may result in check-engine lights.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

tjl said:


> Of course, if the changed hardware gives values that are not expected by the cheater software, then putting the cheater software back in on a car with the hardware changes may result in check-engine lights.


Correct it might, but it would be desensitized so actually less likely.

Also nothing you quoted had anything to do with mismatched hardware and software, it was about how the later ecus have known values stored in them that the system can detect, if it sees a change then it flags the ecu as modified. IF the car was updated with factory code that would change the value the system expects to see. If you put 100% stock (as in no performance modifications) old cheat software the system would detect it was backdated and flag it as modified, despite being stock software.


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

GoFaster said:


> No. Your warranty would be 4 yrs or 48,000 miles from the date of modification.
> 
> I don't know why this is so hard to understand. You said it yourself: it's "either 10yr/120k miles from original delivery or 4yr/48k from modification". The word in between the two cases is OR. You would burn through the 10 yr 120,000 mi case quickly, but the other case still applies. I don't know why this is so hard to understand (you're not the only one to misinterpret this).


The added disclaimer here is the _whichever comes first_

In my car, it would have likely been modded before reaching 120k miles. It was turned in with 108k on the clock, and I have barely driven 9k since replacing it (I work from home, travel is generally errands one or two nights a week and visiting family/playing taxi dad on the weekends) 

At this rate, my 2010 would be around 117k miles, and if updated/modded/whatever VW calls it, would essentially be stuck with a warranty of maybe 3k miles, as the 120k miles. So, unless VW snuck language in the long form (rather than the PDF 10 page flyer) that specifies, in theory they could also say "hey the car had 117k miles when we notified that the fix was ready to install, so you will not get the 4/48 warranty" 

Just saying... either way, it's too late for my Golf, it will not be my daughter's first car.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Company CEO still waiting on actual repair to be finalized for his Cayenne.
He said they did already extend the b2b warranty to 100k... which is actually worth quite a bit on a Porsche.


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

Green Hare said:


> The added disclaimer here is the _whichever comes first_
> 
> In my car, it would have likely been modded before reaching 120k miles. It was turned in with 108k on the clock, and I have barely driven 9k since replacing it (I work from home, travel is generally errands one or two nights a week and visiting family/playing taxi dad on the weekends)
> 
> ...


It is not whichever comes first of all of those cases.

Remember order of operations, and performing operations within brackets, from mathematics?

It is whichever comes LAST of (whichever comes first of 10 yrs from original date of service or 120,000 mi total), or (whichever comes first of 4 yrs from date of modification or 48,000 mi from mileage at modification).

If you burn through the first condition, or are even completely past it at the date of modification, the other one is still in effect.

You could have 400,000 miles on it at the date of modification and thus not fall into the first set of conditions at all, and you will still receive the (whichever comes first of 4 yrs from date of modification or 48,000 mi from mileage at modification).


----------



## Green Hare (Oct 21, 2003)

GoFaster said:


> It is not whichever comes first of all of those cases.
> 
> Remember order of operations, and performing operations within brackets, from mathematics?
> 
> ...


Derp... all about missing one word in the brochure. Oh well, to someone getting the mod, at least they get a half decent warranty then. To me? Well, I have a 2015 GLI now instead.


----------



## PolishSasquatch (May 8, 2008)

going t be some time. deadline for submission to EPA is Oct 23. Then time for EPA to release new tune, probably not available to dealers until december at the very earliest. 


BRealistic said:


> Company CEO still waiting on actual repair to be finalized for his Cayenne.
> He said they did already extend the b2b warranty to 100k... which is actually worth quite a bit on a Porsche.


----------



## Gear_Cruncher (Mar 28, 2013)

The EPA is full of a bunch of bureaucratic morons who suck up your and my tax dollars for basically nothing that is worth worrying about. 
Ok, so maybe they cleaned up pollution a little bit  still, they get paid way too much.


----------



## Ryukein (Dec 10, 2006)

via Automotive News


> BERLIN -- Porsche is seeking 200 million euros ($234 million) in damages from its luxury sibling brand Audi over costs related to manipulated diesel engines, Germany's Bild newspaper reported.
> 
> Porsche's management delivered the claim in written form to counterparts at Audi, the newspaper said on Friday, without citing its source.
> 
> ...


----------



## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

Ryukein said:


> via Automotive News


Draaaaaaamaaaaa


----------



## BUJonathan (Mar 3, 2004)

chris86vw said:


> OBD2 is regulated by standards, they can't just add parameters to an ecu because the tools to read them would not be equipped to handle them.
> This is why generic OBD 2 can be pretty basic while a manufactures system of diagnostics may have more faults and be more thorough


There are OEM-specific OBDII codes. The OBD specification allows for this, because every OEM must demonstrate they can sense a system failure which affects emissions, and every OEM is free to come up with their own unique powertrain design. If an OEM comes up with a unique control strategy or new type of sensor because their powertrain is unique, then they'll most likely need to create a unique DTC as well in order to sense that failure and maintain compliance with the CAA.

An example would be P1000 "Readiness not set" which is specific to Ford and some of the legacy FoMoCo companies (Mazda, Jaguar/Land Rover, Volvo, etc).

Your generic AutoZone code reader may not be setup up to interpret all unique codes. Its database would need to be updated once VW releases the new codes. However, if the code reader's database doesn't have information on a unique code, I believe most will still report the DTC # to you. Then you can paste it into Google and find what it stands for.


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

I do not understand how two parts of _Porsche Automobil Holding SE_ (the parent company of both) can be involved on opposite sides of a lawsuit, but ok.


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

On another note, I still haven't received my Bosch check yet (car sold back to VW in February 2017).

Found a place on their site to contact Bosch. So around the start of September I asked about it. After a few days got a response that it was mailed on 6/13. I replied back and said it never arrived and asked can it be stopped (stop payment) and a replacement be issued. They said "will look into it" and now nothing in about a month.

Anyone else not received their Bosch check yet?


----------



## DUBPL8 (Sep 29, 2012)

gti_matt said:


> On another note, I still haven't received my Bosch check yet (car sold back to VW in February 2017).
> 
> Found a place on their site to contact Bosch. So around the start of September I asked about it. After a few days got a response that it was mailed on 6/13. I replied back and said it never arrived and asked can it be stopped (stop payment) and a replacement be issued. They said "will look into it" and now nothing in about a month.
> 
> Anyone else not received their Bosch check yet?


I turned mine in back in April and to my surprise I got my check in the mail last Friday. Was able to deposit all $350 of it before the bank closed so consider that an official chapter of my VW ownership closed for good. :thumbup:


----------



## julianv (Mar 10, 1999)

*Fix for Gen 1 cars - any user experiences?*

Has VW started to install the fix for the first generation TDIs?

My SO is still undecided about whether to get her 2010 Jetta fixed, or to take the buyback money. We would be interested in hearing reports from anyone who has the fix - what the effects were on performance, drivability, MPG. From what I can remember, the only gen 1 reports that I found on the web were from European owners, and their experiences are probably not directly comparable with the USA cars.


----------



## E CODE (Feb 2, 2005)

julianv said:


> Has VW started to install the fix for the first generation TDIs?
> 
> My SO is still undecided about whether to get her 2010 Jetta fixed, or to take the buyback money. We would be interested in hearing reports from anyone who has the fix - what the effects were on performance, drivability, MPG. From what I can remember, the only gen 1 reports that I found on the web were from European owners, and their experiences are probably not directly comparable with the USA cars.


Most report no real issues or changes.... some have experiences more than a 1 mpg drop in MPG. Other have bricked transmissions... so it's really all over the map right now.


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

We got our Bosch check within a few months of the notice (so summer time-frame we got ours).


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

82Turbo930 said:


> The EPA is full of a bunch of bureaucratic morons who suck up your and my tax dollars for basically nothing that is worth worrying about.
> Ok, so maybe they cleaned up pollution a little bit  still, they get paid way too much.


That is precisely what they are good for. Want a project you don't like delayed or cancelled? Get the EPA involved. Find an endangered species or oil spill or something. Presto 5 years of FU to whatever bureaucrat won't listen to reason. Plus you get to run up the budget, get light pollution resolved, sound abatement, time of use restrictions, you name it. It's a fun game of fark you to someone's pet project.


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

My friend got his 2010 Golf done a couple of weeks ago, and he says it is no different in power or mileage.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Blonde Guy said:


> My friend got his 2010 Golf done a couple of weeks ago, and he says it is no different in power or mileage.


How long is VW on the hook to cover these changes (warranty)?
SOMETHING has to get hurt when fully legal for VW to have risked this.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

BRealistic said:


> How long is VW on the hook to cover these changes (warranty)?
> SOMETHING has to get hurt when fully legal for VW to have risked this.


The 2010 didn't have urea injection. Was that retrofitted? I'm thinking it wasn't, but the fix likely doesn't get it to within specs for 2010 anyway, but the EPA deemed it "good enough". 

As I understand it the ones with urea injection were damn close to passing, but since they were going so long having cheated they stupidly continued on.


----------



## Deezel Boy (Nov 26, 1999)

BRealistic said:


> How long is VW on the hook to cover these changes (warranty)?
> SOMETHING has to get hurt when fully legal for VW to have risked this.


the wife got her '11 JSW done back in Sept. Drives pretty much the same. All the new parts and ALL the emissions stuff comes with a 48 mo/48 K mile warranty from the date of mods/repairs.

Still waiting to hear anything re my '12 passat 6spd tdi, the only ones that do not have a "fix" yet!


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

Air and water do mix said:


> The 2010 didn't have urea injection. Was that retrofitted? I'm thinking it wasn't, but the fix likely doesn't get it to within specs for 2010 anyway, but the EPA deemed it "good enough".
> 
> As I understand it the ones with urea injection were damn close to passing, but since they were going so long having cheated they stupidly continued on.


As I understand it, the Gen 1 fix is a larger system with the same basic design. The cheating system could make the car pass emissions, but it was not durable enough to last the required time. There is no urea injection for the Gen 1 fix. There surely is a software change. If the system wears out over time, I don't know what happens.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

BUJonathan said:


> There are OEM-specific OBDII codes. The OBD specification allows for this, because every OEM must demonstrate they can sense a system failure which affects emissions, and every OEM is free to come up with their own unique powertrain design. If an OEM comes up with a unique control strategy or new type of sensor because their powertrain is unique, then they'll most likely need to create a unique DTC as well in order to sense that failure and maintain compliance with the CAA.
> 
> An example would be P1000 "Readiness not set" which is specific to Ford and some of the legacy FoMoCo companies (Mazda, Jaguar/Land Rover, Volvo, etc).
> 
> Your generic AutoZone code reader may not be setup up to interpret all unique codes. Its database would need to be updated once VW releases the new codes. However, if the code reader's database doesn't have information on a unique code, I believe most will still report the DTC # to you. Then you can paste it into Google and find what it stands for.


Um yeah I actually said ALL of that.. but it still has nothing to do with what I actually said or what I was responding too :screwy:



The person I replied to said they would be checking more parameters, OBDII Faults are not parameters. Simply adding fault codes would not in anyway help them determine if there is a cheat applied because you can very easily manipulate the triggers for DTCs. Adding a fault wouldn't do a thing if they set the requirement for the fault to set at some never obtainable level whether that be high or low. This is actually done in the aftermarket to disable DTCs. 



If you are going to come back 2 months later and reply to something at least read the chain of the conversation to understand what was originally said.


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

Honestly there are people programming VW's now that could let you play tetris on the dash like the gazelle video going around.

You can make the computer say anything and lie about every sensor and readiness. It's been that way for years and coders have even gotten good enough that just permasetting readiness codes were getting caught so they'd have some parameters to check off to before they activate.

If someone wants to tune the car and hide it, I have no doubt they can, or they can just go to a state without emissions checks and if warranty comes up, reprogram.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Four Audi managers indicted in U.S. VW diesel emissions probe - court documents*

No word yet on who they are or their positions in the company.



> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A federal grand jury in Detroit on Thursday indicted four managers at Volkswagen AG’s (VOWG_p.DE) luxury Audi unit as part of the U.S. government’s investigation into the German automaker’s diesel emissions cheating scandal, according to court documents.
> 
> VW admitted in September 2015 to secretly installing software in nearly 500,000 U.S. cars to cheat government exhaust emissions tests and pleaded guilty in 2017 to felony charges. In total, 13 people have been charged in the United States, including the four Audi managers.


EDIT: They are now identified: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ons-probe-idUSKCN1PB2SF?utm_source=reddit.com



> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A federal grand jury in Detroit on Thursday indicted four managers at Volkswagen AG’s (VOWG_p.DE) luxury Audi unit as part of the U.S. government’s investigation into the German automaker’s diesel emissions cheating scandal, according to court documents.
> 
> VW admitted in September 2015 to secretly installing software in nearly 500,000 U.S. vehicles to cheat government exhaust emissions tests and pleaded guilty in 2017 to felony charges. In total, 13 people have been charged in the United States, including the four Audi managers.
> *
> ...


----------



## Car Problems (Jan 22, 2014)

Is there a point where the US cant keep bringing up charges? Is this like triple jeopardy?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Until the statute of limitations runs out?


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

spockcat's article said:


> In total, 13 people have been charged in the United States,


By way of comparison 5 people were charged for deep water horizon, none served jail time and none were executives :laugh:


----------



## AZGolf (Jun 6, 2000)

Reuters said:


> Managers Richard Bauder, Axel Eiser, Stefan Knirsch and Carsten Nagel all worked in Audi’s engine development division in Germany. Bauder was head of Audi’s Diesel Engine Development department. A Justice Department spokesman said none are in custody. *All are believed to be in Germany.*


OK, so they'll never face any charges, since Germany doesn't extradite German citizens to the USA because of that whole WWII thing. If German prosecutors care about it though, they might, maybe, possibly give them a small slap on the wrist at home.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Silly_me said:


> By way of comparison 5 people were charged for deep water horizon, none served jail time and none were executives :laugh:


Did they find evidence that BP execs intentionally caused the spill?
Only way that's comparable.


----------



## Deezel Boy (Nov 26, 1999)

Car Problems said:


> Is there a point where the US cant keep bringing up charges? Is this like triple jeopardy?


For real! Talk about beating a dead horse! I think $25,000,000,000 should've paid for EVRYONEs wrongdoing by now!!
MURICA!


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

BRealistic said:


> Did they find evidence that BP execs intentionally caused the spill?
> Only way that's comparable.


I was poking fun at how detrimental dieselgate was to the environment :laugh: But if its hypocrisy we want, how about the 50 year scheme to defraud the public that the tobacco companies were sued for? No jail time for that one........


----------



## CostcoPizza (Jan 20, 2008)

And the financial meltdown, and (likely) the opioid crisis.

The chicken**** club never ends.


----------



## Activ8 (Aug 25, 2011)

Silly_me said:


> By way of comparison 5 people were charged for deep water horizon, none served jail time and none were executives :laugh:


By way of comparison 0.0 people were charged for GM's Ignition Switch scandal, none served jail time and no executives lost their jobs :facepalm:


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

Car Problems said:


> Is there a point where the US cant keep bringing up charges? Is this like triple jeopardy?


Unless they were indicted, tried, found not guilty and then charged with the same crime again that isn't double jeopardy, never mind triple.


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Back to the cars...has anyone tried to find their bought-back TDI and succeeded in finding what happened to it?

I went to https://www.vwdieselinfo.com and put in my VIN and it tells me:
Vehicle (VIN) Included in Settlement:	YES
Modification Approved by EPA and CARB:	YES
Modification Completed for this Vehicle (VIN):	YES
Vehicle has Extended Emissions Warranty:	YES

So I'm guessing mine was not crushed/destroyed then. However I haven't seen it pop up for sale anywhere yet either (I search semi-regularly). VW bought back mine nearly two years ago now.


----------



## JackStraw79 (Aug 10, 2015)

gti_matt said:


> Back to the cars...has anyone tried to find their bought-back TDI and succeeded in finding what happened to it?
> 
> I went to https://www.vwdieselinfo.com and put in my VIN and it tells me:
> Vehicle (VIN) Included in Settlement:	YES
> ...


I turned mine in Jan 2017 and saw it pop up for sale in Georgia a couple months ago


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Ah, my legacy to TCL: a 482 page thread.

I haven't tried to find our old TDI; perhaps I should. It'd have been a peach on the used market; full spec (DSG/Tech package), 29k miles at 5 years old, one scratch on the entire car.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

gti_matt said:


> Back to the cars...has anyone tried to find their bought-back TDI and succeeded in finding what happened to it?
> 
> I went to https://www.vwdieselinfo.com and put in my VIN and it tells me:
> Vehicle (VIN) Included in Settlement:	YES
> ...


My 2015 was resold in PA, probably one of the earlier cars fixed and resold. Never looked up my 2012


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

gti_matt said:


> Back to the cars...has anyone tried to find their bought-back TDI and succeeded in finding what happened to it?
> 
> I went to https://www.vwdieselinfo.com and put in my VIN and it tells me:
> Vehicle (VIN) Included in Settlement:	YES
> ...


Used that with my old Jetta just now. Looks like it was fixed a week ago and is for sale is Wyoming after pasting the VIN into Google. Definitely the right car because I added the plaid to the interior trim.

Thanks for that link cause this just made my day lol. I was 100% sure they would have crushed it.

https://www.fremonttoyotalander.com...dr+Manual+TDI+wPremium++Nav-3VW3L7AJ4CM362528


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 26, 1999)

TheRealCaptainSlow said:


> https://www.fremonttoyotalander.com...dr+Manual+TDI+wPremium++Nav-3VW3L7AJ4CM362528


Low miles! Like it hasn't been driven for a while or something........


----------



## GoFaster (Jun 18, 1999)

The general impression seems to be that 2011-on are being fixed and re-sold if they are in good condition and lower mileage (unknown what the threshold is), 2009-2010 are being flattened regardless of condition.


----------



## comma (Jan 16, 2010)

Looks like they crushed mine. Perfect shape when turned in with 60k miles 

Vehicle (VIN) Included in Settlement:	YES
Modification Approved by EPA and CARB:	YES
Modification Completed for this Vehicle (VIN):	NO
Vehicle has Extended Emissions Warranty:	NO - Requires Completed Modification


----------



## fixmy59bug (Apr 9, 2002)

> Looks like they crushed mine. Perfect shape when turned in with 60k miles
> 
> Vehicle (VIN) Included in Settlement:	YES
> Modification Approved by EPA and CARB:	YES
> ...


Exact same result as my 2013 Passat SEL with 60k miles.

Wish I would have known that was the end result. I would have replaced a few items....


----------



## Mazda 3s (Nov 12, 2003)

gti_matt said:


> Back to the cars...has anyone tried to find their bought-back TDI and succeeded in finding what happened to it?
> 
> I went to https://www.vwdieselinfo.com and put in my VIN and it tells me:
> Vehicle (VIN) Included in Settlement:	YES
> ...



Results for your
2013 Jetta Wagon 4D TDI I4
Volkswagen Emissions Modification Programs

Vehicle (VIN) Included in Settlement:	YES
Modification Approved by EPA and CARB:	YES
Modification Completed for this Vehicle (VIN):	YES
Vehicle has Extended Emissions Warranty:	YES

Apparently, mine turned up at Vorderman Volkswagen in Fort Wayne, IN. A VIN search in Google showed it there, but the listing is now gone, so I'm assuming it was sold. It was sold with 54,384 miles on it. I turned it in with 54,384 miles on it.


----------



## Lifelong Obsession (Jul 24, 2011)

Just checked my father's former 2013 Passat, which had about 70K and no accidents when it was bought back around April 2017.

Volkswagen Emissions Modification Programs

Vehicle (VIN) Included in Settlement:	YES
Modification Approved by EPA and CARB:	YES
Modification Completed for this Vehicle (VIN):	NO
Vehicle has Extended Emissions Warranty:	NO - Requires Completed Modification

Crushed, I guess?


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

Results for your
2011 Golf Hatchback 4D TDI
Volkswagen Emissions Modification Programs
Vehicle (VIN) Included in Settlement:	YES
Modification Approved by EPA and CARB:	YES
Modification Completed for this Vehicle (VIN):	YES
Vehicle has Extended Emissions Warranty:	YES


My car was in excellent shape, with about 60K miles. I haven't seen that many for sale. I haven't seen a lot of them on the road. Who is buying them?


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

My son's 2010 JSW. Had around 50-60k miles I think. Either crushed or sitting in some field somewhere waiting its turn for the crusher.

Results for your
2010 Jetta Wagon 4D TDI
Volkswagen Emissions Modification Programs
Vehicle (VIN) Included in Settlement:	YES
Modification Approved by EPA and CARB:	YES
Modification Completed for this Vehicle (VIN):	NO
Vehicle has Extended Emissions Warranty:	NO - Requires Completed Modification


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

TheRealCaptainSlow said:


> Used that with my old Jetta just now. Looks like it was fixed a week ago and is for sale is Wyoming after pasting the VIN into Google. Definitely the right car because I added the plaid to the interior trim.
> 
> Thanks for that link cause this just made my day lol. I was 100% sure they would have crushed it.
> 
> https://www.fremonttoyotalander.com...dr+Manual+TDI+wPremium++Nav-3VW3L7AJ4CM362528


Nice spec.. but wow white seats?
I thought even damp blue jeans would stain white seats.


----------



## TheRealCaptainSlow (Feb 4, 2015)

BRealistic said:


> Nice spec.. but wow white seats?
> I thought even damp blue jeans would stain white seats.


They are tan. The pics make them look lighter than they are but they cleaned up pretty well. 

Sent from my banana phone


----------



## dunhamjr (May 21, 2002)

Our 2013 JSW hasn't been repaired. Wish there was a better way to know if crushed, or just rotting in a lot somewhere.
Kind of surprised. Turned it in nearly 2 years ago, it only had 27k miles. Honestly, it was in perfect shape.

Volkswagen Emissions Modification Programs
Vehicle (VIN) Included in Settlement:	YES
Modification Approved by EPA and CARB:	YES
Modification Completed for this Vehicle (VIN):	NO
Vehicle has Extended Emissions Warranty:	NO - Requires Completed Modification


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

Blonde Guy said:


> Results for your
> 2011 Golf Hatchback 4D TDI
> Volkswagen Emissions Modification Programs
> Vehicle (VIN) Included in Settlement:	YES
> ...


Mine was also a 2011 with about 66K miles in great shape with only one ding on it from my bicycle. It had new tires too with about 5K on them before I sold it back.

I almost thought I found it on autotrader.com when I saw a white 4D with the black body side molding (almost nobody had that option but mine did) and then I saw that it was halogen headlamps and not xenon and had nav which I didn't (mine was xenons but no nav).


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Maybe I missed it, is there a site I can plug in my vin to see where it ended up?


----------



## gti_matt (Oct 9, 1999)

vwdieselinfo.com will tell you where the car is in the recall progress, but it doesn't tell you if it was crushed or sold (and where). It just tells you if the repairs were done or not.

If the repairs were done, one can assume it is or will be re-sold.

If the repairs are not done, it's anyone's guess if it's just not done or if it was crushed.


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

Heh. I turned my 2010 jsw in with 210k on the clock. The helicopter sound of eminent death of the dmf. I have no doubt it will be crushed and never repaired.
My wife backed it into a tree just before we turned it in and cracked the back bumper, it was practically invisible, but it did bend some of the metal. They never ever cared at the inspection.

After years of 6 dogs in the back and many cross country trips, it was great to have vw buy it back.


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

Looks like ours was fixed and ended up at a dealer in Texarkana listed for $17,361 (Had about 14k miles when we did the buy back and was perfect besides the craigslist steelies I threw on it for trade in). 

We made out pretty well, got a good amount back from VW than what we paid for it initially. Kind of regret jumping the gun to take the buy back right away as the fix & result was both faster and better than I had expected. Wife does like the AWD in the Alltrack but I wish it had the TDI motor.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Sump said:


> Looks like ours was fixed and ended up at a dealer in Texarkana listed for $17,361 (Had about 14k miles when we did the buy back and was perfect besides the craigslist steelies I threw on it for trade in).
> 
> We made out pretty well, got a good amount back from VW than what we paid for it initially. Kind of regret jumping the gun to take the buy back right away as the fix & result was both faster and better than I had expected. Wife does like the AWD in the Alltrack but I wish it had the TDI motor.


I have't been following very closely since not a current/past owner.
But what ended up being the "Fix" for your car (in terms of equipment change/tuning/fuel economy/urea consumption/ emissions equipment wear)?


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

BRealistic said:


> I have't been following very closely since not a current/past owner.
> But what ended up being the "Fix" for your car (in terms of equipment change/tuning/fuel economy/urea consumption/ emissions equipment wear)?


Small MPG and power reduction basically. 

https://www.cars.com/articles/we-te...-scandal-volkswagen-tdi-diesel-1420699480602/

Highlights: 



> Before the fix: Over 135.5 miles, our loop returned 44.2 mpg at an average 40.0 mph.
> After the fix: Over 136.2 miles (longer because of an accident detour) our loop returned 42.4 mpg at an average 34.5 mph.
> 
> 
> ...


Edit, we had a sportwagen which was the one without Urea. This article covers the Passat engine. https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15070079/volkswagen-tdi-diesel-fix-performance/


----------



## Volkl (Oct 2, 2003)

Hey, just found mine listed for sale. Price seems a little high for 61K miles, but then again manual TDI SE wagons aren't super common. I kind of miss that car. 

https://www.campbellvw.com/used-car...Wagen-4dr-Manual-TDI-SE/968/3VWFA7AU0FM509381


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

> Before the fix: Our best run returned 135.4 horsepower at around 3,900 rpm and 225.3 pounds-feet of torque at around 2,400 rpm.
> After the fix: Our best run produced 133.1 horsepower and 217.0 pounds-feet of torque, at similar respective rpm.


I've done few hundred dyno runs on these engines.

I've seen bigger changes from running identical tunes with different fan placement or just waiting 5 minutes vs 10 minutes between runs.. heck waiting only 1-2 minutes you can make a tuned car make less than stock if it hits egt protection. Depending on dyno just how it is strapped down could account for that difference in power. 

Not saying that there isn't a change but I wouldn't consider that change at all a sign that the fix reduced power.




And the mpg test 130 miles and seeing 2mpg difference with clearly different driving conditions is not really telling you anything either.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Sump said:


> Small MPG and power reduction basically.
> 
> https://www.cars.com/articles/we-te...-scandal-volkswagen-tdi-diesel-1420699480602/
> 
> ...


But what about the emissions equipment?
The MPG/Power difference seems minor... so SOMETHING had to be an issue for them to blatantly cheat.. right?


----------



## Sump (Jul 14, 2006)

BRealistic said:


> But what about the emissions equipment?
> The MPG/Power difference seems minor... so SOMETHING had to be an issue for them to blatantly cheat.. right?


I'm really only familiar with the engine we had but it was simply a software update the one article explains the EPA / carb requirement the government made them have. I think the other engine has some equipment swapped out.

Looking back on it pretty crazy the lengths VW went to for basically improved Highway efficiency to hit a certain number for their advertising.


----------



## Deezel Boy (Nov 26, 1999)

Sump said:


> The MPG/Power difference seems minor... so SOMETHING had to be an issue for them to blatantly cheat.. right?


As stupid as if sounds, PART of the reason for the cheat code is to make the urea tank fill last the 10k miles, so it could be filled during oil/filter changes!!


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Thanks. I entered my VIN and the system said my car was not included in the buyback program. hah. I guess it has a glitch.



gti_matt said:


> vwdieselinfo.com will tell you where the car is in the recall progress, but it doesn't tell you if it was crushed or sold (and where). It just tells you if the repairs were done or not.
> 
> If the repairs were done, one can assume it is or will be re-sold.
> 
> If the repairs are not done, it's anyone's guess if it's just not done or if it was crushed.


----------



## Volkl (Oct 2, 2003)

AJB said:


> Thanks. I entered my VIN and the system said my car was not included in the buyback program. hah. I guess it has a glitch.


The same happened when I entered the VIN. Maybe because it is past when you can submit info now for the 2.0L cars? 

I instead googled the VIN, and found it currently listed for sale at a VW dealer here in WA as a certified car, which means the fix has been done on it.


----------



## BRealistic (Dec 17, 2005)

Deezel Boy said:


> As stupid as if sounds, PART of the reason for the cheat code is to make the urea tank fill last the 10k miles, so it could be filled during oil/filter changes!!


Ok.. that makes sense if they had urea injection already.
(I was thinking the Jetta did not though)
I guess trying to allow for a larger tank (to be legal and still have 10k worth of DPF) would cause other issues.
Currently what,.. 5 gallons?


----------



## Aseras (Dec 2, 2010)

AJB said:


> Thanks. I entered my VIN and the system said my car was not included in the buyback program. hah. I guess it has a glitch.


The java code they use is buggy, reload the page and put it in again.


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

AJB said:


> Thanks. I entered my VIN and the system said my car was not included in the buyback program. hah. I guess it has a glitch.


That happened to me, too. The VIN is case-sensitive. Enter it in all Capital Letters.


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

Deezel Boy said:


> As stupid as if sounds, PART of the reason for the cheat code is to make the urea tank fill last the 10k miles, so it could be filled during oil/filter changes!!


I can believe that - $40 a fill multiplied by how many cars every 10k over the course of a year? A lot of TDI's were probably used by people like me putting lots of miles on so that is lots of money in VW's pocket.


----------



## AJB (Nov 11, 2002)

Blonde Guy said:


> That happened to me, too. The VIN is case-sensitive. Enter it in all Capital Letters.


Thanks that was it.


----------



## T5 Dave (Nov 30, 2001)

*Answered my own question!*



T5 Dave said:


> Does that mean if the swirl motor in the intake manifold dies and produces a fault code that the $1500 repair for the new manifold is included in this warranty?


Well, come to find out, yes, the intake manifold *was *replaced for free after the fault code cropped up. When the CEL came on I finally got brave and whipped out the Ross-Tech Micro-CAN dongle I bought 3 years ago, loaded up the software, and discovered the P2015 error code. Took it to the dealer, they replaced the entire manifold, no charge. 

I'd have thought they'd have figured out how to just replace the swirl motor and linkage, but, no, they replaced the whole manifold. I was going to do it myself, but I discovered there may be two different motor types (V120 and V156) each having their own failure modes where the fix of one won't work on the other. So, for no charge, what the heck, I'll let the dealer do it.

Man, I love that Ross-Tech system. Might have to go and buy another VW just to make it work on that one . . . .


----------



## fixmy59bug (Apr 9, 2002)

There actually is a site where you can see what happened to it...

https://www.vehiclehistory.com/

Turns out my 2013 Passat TDI SEL was crushed.


----------



## geofftii2002 (Nov 6, 2001)

fixmy59bug said:


> There actually is a site where you can see what happened to it...
> 
> https://www.vehiclehistory.com/
> 
> Turns out my 2013 Passat TDI SEL was crushed.



I never should have looked at that site. My 300TE, which was previously enjoying a low-mileage existence on Staten Island was crushed in 2018. I'm way sadder than I should be.


----------



## rich! (Feb 18, 1999)

2012 Touareg Utility 4D TDI Sport Navigation AWD
Volkswagen Emissions Modification Programs
Vehicle (VIN) Included in Settlement:	YES
Modification Approved by EPA and CARB:	YES
Modification Completed for this Vehicle (VIN):	NO
Vehicle has Extended Emissions Warranty:	NO - Requires Completed Modification


----------



## fixmy59bug (Apr 9, 2002)

fixmy59bug said:


> There actually is a site where you can see what happened to it...
> 
> https://www.vehiclehistory.com/
> 
> Turns out my 2013 Passat TDI SEL was crushed.





geofftii2002 said:


> I never should have looked at that site. My 300TE, which was previously enjoying a low-mileage existence on Staten Island was crushed in 2018. I'm way sadder than I should be.


Yeah.... Me too...

I just found the VIN for my 2009 Jetta TDI and discovered it was crushed with about 150k on the clock. kinda bummed about that car too. So atleast it lived for about 100k miles after I traded it in.

The odd thing on that report is that it shows life in Utah, Alaska, Michigan, and Missouri. I am sure Michigan is just vw retitling the car to themself when they bought it back.


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

fixmy59bug said:


> The odd thing on that report is that it shows life in Utah, Alaska, Michigan, and Missouri. I am sure Michigan is just vw retitling the car to themself when they bought it back.


Yeah both mine showed Michigan titles. My 2015 I knew sold from seeing it on a dealer site (friend found) and seems to have sold day it was listed. My 2012 still shows Michigan title but not crushed and the miles were more than I traded it I. So that was weird.


----------



## Air and water do mix (Aug 5, 2004)

fixmy59bug said:


> There actually is a site where you can see what happened to it...
> 
> https://www.vehiclehistory.com/
> 
> Turns out my 2013 Passat TDI SEL was crushed.


Thanks for the link. :beer:

Unfortunately although it says “search any vehicle” it is only capable of late standardized 17 digit VINs. That’s too bad. I’d love to be able to find out something about some of my old cars.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Air and water do mix said:


> Thanks for the link. :beer:
> 
> Unfortunately although it says “search any vehicle” it is only capable of late standardized 17 digit VINs. That’s too bad. I’d love to be able to find out something about some of my old cars.


Makes me wish I had saved the VINs from my old cars.


----------



## Blonde Guy (Feb 11, 2006)

Thanks for the link. Apparently after I took the buyout for my 2011 Golf TDI, the car was repaired, shipped to Salt Lake City and sold for $12500. That's well above the blue book value. It was in nice condition with about 60K miles.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

I’ll have to look for ours.


----------



## Terrible One (Apr 25, 2002)

spockcat said:


> Makes me wish I had saved the VINs from my old cars.


If you have any old pictures, reference the license plate in a search engine like faxvin.com and convert it to a vin number. Done this with a few old cars to see where they end up.


----------



## Lucian1988 (Mar 25, 2009)

i just looked for the 2 cars that we sold back to VW, the Passat was moved to MI where it still sits apparently. The Jetta TDI was sold last month at a dealer in IL for around 9K. interesting!


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

I just looked my VIN (2014 JSW DSG) up and called the dealer that it showed had it last. Sounds like they sold it, but they have an identical one coming in with lower mileage (about 25k). They're asking $13,669. I really did enjoy the car and wouldn't mind picking this one up as a second car. Is there any good reason to or to not check this one out?


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

Skizzle1111 said:


> I just looked my VIN (2014 JSW DSG) up and called the dealer that it showed had it last. Sounds like they sold it, but they have an identical one coming in with lower mileage (about 25k). They're asking $13,669. I really did enjoy the car and wouldn't mind picking this one up as a second car. Is there any good reason to or to not check this one out?


I don't see why it would be a bad idea. They are a known quantity and you should get the Extended Warranty if both fixes were done in the proper time frame. It covers many systems to around 160k miles. I have the paperwork somewhere. I will see if I can find and post. I love my TDI. Glad I bought it when they came back up for sale.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

Terrible One said:


> If you have any old pictures, reference the license plate in a search engine like faxvin.com and convert it to a vin number. Done this with a few old cars to see where they end up.


I still have my old license plates from many of my old cars. They are from CT where the plate doesn't transfer with the car. So I doubt there is any way to get a VIN from googling the plate. But 438ANN was one of my old Porsche 914s sold to someone in FL over 20 years ago. What can you find?


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

UncleJB said:


> I don't see why it would be a bad idea. They are a known quantity and you should get the Extended Warranty if both fixes were done in the proper time frame. It covers many systems to around 160k miles. I have the paperwork somewhere. I will see if I can find and post. I love my TDI. Glad I bought it when they came back up for sale.


:thumbup:


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

Skizzle1111 said:


> :thumbup:




 

Sorry about the damn photobucket watermark. I guess this only applies to the 2015 models that were new. Might be worth checking to see if any warranty allowances were made for older TDI cars.


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

UncleJB said:


> Sorry about the damn photobucket watermark. I guess this only applies to the 2015 models that were new. Might be worth checking to see if any warranty allowances were made for older TDI cars.


Thanks for posting that. I almost wonder then if it's worth it to look at a 2015 with the newer body style and an extended warranty included. But it looks like the '15s are running $3000-$5000 more than the '14s from what I'm seeing so maybe a '14 with a separately purchased extended warranty would still put me in a better spot.


----------



## Rockerchick (May 10, 2005)

Skizzle1111 said:


> Thanks for posting that. I almost wonder then if it's worth it to look at a 2015 with the newer body style and an extended warranty included. But it looks like the '15s are running $3000-$5000 more than the '14s from what I'm seeing so maybe a '14 with a separately purchased extended warranty would still put me in a better spot.


All cars have an extended warranty. Here is the info on the earlier cars: 
"The Approved Emissions Modification Extended Warranty period for 2009-2014 model year vehicles will be the greater of:

(a) 4 years or 48,000 miles, whichever comes first, from date and mileage of implementing the Emissions Modification, except for vehicles offered for resale, in which case from the date and mileage of the first resale transaction after the modification to the first person who in good faith purchases the vehicle for purposes other than resale, or

(b) 10 years or 120,000 actual miles from the initial date of purchase (whichever comes first)."

Taken from: https://www.vwcourtsettlement.com/en/2-0-models/

When looking at cars, go here: https://www.vwdieselinfo.com/ put in the VIN of the car you're looking at and it will tell you if the fix was done, when it was done, and the warranty coverage. 


That aside, the '15's are way nicer cars. I looked at wagons for a short time realizing how cheap the TDIs were that were back on sale. Drove a '13 and a '15. '15 is on the newer mk7 MQB platform and just feels more solid and has a nicer interior, IMO. But the challenge long term then is that its a one year only engine. If I were to get one, I'd snag a '15 if possible.


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

Skizzle1111 said:


> Thanks for posting that. I almost wonder then if it's worth it to look at a 2015 with the newer body style and an extended warranty included. But it looks like the '15s are running $3000-$5000 more than the '14s from what I'm seeing so maybe a '14 with a separately purchased extended warranty would still put me in a better spot.


I had a '13 JSW with the 2.5L before I bought my '15 GSW TDI. The MK7 platform definitely seems to be a better car all around and the tech still feels relevant where the MK6 was starting to feel a bit dated. The '15 models have the AdBlue tank and the older models did not. Not much of an added expense if you do your own fills. 

I started a thread when I bought mine which might be helpful. https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthr...-quot-New-quot-TDI-Owner-Thread&highlight=TDI 

I've got 83k on mine at this point and after another '15 owner (Stl 2.5) had the same strange sound coming from the engine bay as I did, I ended up doing a full belt service at 80k - he had less miles but still also did the service. They aren't due for timing belt until 130k according to VW maint schedule but I didn't want to take a chance. Check the last two pages of that thread where Stl 2.5 posted a video of the sound and check for it if you are interested in a '15. Might save you some $$ if you can get a dealership to address the issue.



Rockerchick said:


> All cars have an extended warranty. Here is the info on the earlier cars:
> "The Approved Emissions Modification Extended Warranty period for 2009-2014 model year vehicles will be the greater of:
> 
> (a) 4 years or 48,000 miles, whichever comes first, from date and mileage of implementing the Emissions Modification, except for vehicles offered for resale, in which case from the date and mileage of the first resale transaction after the modification to the first person who in good faith purchases the vehicle for purposes other than resale, or
> ...


Good info. :thumbup:


----------



## chris86vw (Feb 23, 2000)

Skizzle1111 said:


> Thanks for posting that. I almost wonder then if it's worth it to look at a 2015 with the newer body style and an extended warranty included. But it looks like the '15s are running $3000-$5000 more than the '14s from what I'm seeing so maybe a '14 with a separately purchased extended warranty would still put me in a better spot.


I had a 2012 tdi jsw and 2015 gsw.

The 2015 is a much nicer car which is some of what you're paying for. 

Remember the 2014 is basically a 2004/5 worth a face lidt., Still great car but a little dated.


----------



## rs4-380 (Dec 12, 2000)

fixmy59bug said:


> Yeah.... Me too...
> 
> I just found the VIN for my 2009 Jetta TDI and discovered it was crushed with about 150k on the clock. kinda bummed about that car too. So atleast it lived for about 100k miles after I traded it in.
> 
> The odd thing on that report is that it shows life in Utah, Alaska, Michigan, and Missouri. I am sure Michigan is just vw retitling the car to themself when they bought it back.


I had the opposite experience. Found that my 200K+ A6 avant that I figured was destined for the scrap heap in 2014 made it another 5 years in NY and was just crushed last week. :what:


----------



## QUIRKiT (Dec 19, 2006)

Skizzle1111 said:


> Thanks for posting that. I almost wonder then if it's worth it to look at a 2015 with the newer body style and an extended warranty included. But it looks like the '15s are running $3000-$5000 more than the '14s from what I'm seeing so maybe a '14 with a separately purchased extended warranty would still put me in a better spot.



'15s are absolutely worth the premium. MQB platform, better dsg programming, no chance of intercooler icing(more reliable in theory), better electronics, and just overall a more enjoyable experience. Downside is the addition of DEF, but it's cheap if you fill up at truck stops or buy O'reilly's brand, I fill up about every ~12k miles.


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

QUIRKiT said:


> '15s are absolutely worth the premium. MQB platform, better dsg programming, no chance of intercooler icing(more reliable in theory), better electronics, and just overall a more enjoyable experience. Downside is the addition of DEF, but it's cheap if you fill up at truck stops or buy O'reilly's brand, I fill up about every ~12k miles.


Even the dealership isn't bad for DEF. I usually pay around $12 for the big jug. I took one of the small jugs and cut the bottom off to use as a funnel. Easy peasy. :thumbup:


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

While I have not seen the car in person yet, apparently they decided to make it a CPO and raise the price from $13,669 to $14,269. 

https://www.mcdonaldhyundai.com/inventory/certified-used-2014-volkswagen-jetta-sportwagen-2-0l-tdi-fwd-4d-wagon-3vwpl7ajxem609118


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

Our 2013 looks like it's back on the road after the modifications.


----------



## UncleJB (Jul 3, 2002)

Skizzle1111 said:


> While I have not seen the car in person yet, apparently they decided to make it a CPO and raise the price from $13,669 to $14,269.
> 
> https://www.mcdonaldhyundai.com/inventory/certified-used-2014-volkswagen-jetta-sportwagen-2-0l-tdi-fwd-4d-wagon-3vwpl7ajxem609118


Well at least they are only hiking the price $500. That seems like a decent deal considering the low mileage. 

We have some dealers here that are piling up the TDI's. https://www.noyesvolkswagen.com/use...mizePayment_Module&direction=asc&t=u&fueltype[]=Diesel&sf=sf_fueltype 

Price wise it seems like yours is in line with what they are asking.


----------



## Numbersix (Nov 7, 2001)

Finally looked ours up. 2+ years later, it doesn’t look like it has been fixed and resold.

That’s a shame...it was a mint DSG Tech package car with 28k mi. I’d buy it back as a commuter if I could.


----------



## Duvel (Mar 11, 2015)

To my surprise just found out our 2011 JSW was resold for 9,5K asking in central PA. Unfortunately, it has become someone else's problem because we had issues with it ever since insurance failed to wreck it and a shoddy body shop butchered the repairs.


----------



## Burnette (May 17, 2012)

*Ha!*



Duvel said:


> To my surprise just found out our 2011 JSW was resold for 9,5K asking in central PA. *Unfortunately, it has become someone else's problem *because we had issues with it ever since insurance failed to wreck it and a shoddy body shop butchered the repairs.


Sounds like all of these old VWs are like herpes, just spreading your stuff to other people


----------



## cwescapexlt4x4 (Jan 2, 2003)

I have been seeing several TDI's back on the road all with new temp tags as they've obviously just been purchased and walking thru the parking lot yesterday a Golf went by and before i could see the TDI badge, i was hearing the diesel purr and sorta made me miss our old JSW.


----------



## fixmy59bug (Apr 9, 2002)

cwescapexlt4x4 said:


> I have been seeing several TDI's back on the road all with new temp tags as they've obviously just been purchased and walking thru the parking lot yesterday a Golf went by and before i could see the TDI badge, i was hearing the diesel purr and sorta made me miss our old JSW.


Yup, They've been available for sale for the last 2 years, almost.

With a FANTASTIC warranty after the fix to boot.


----------



## Skizzle1111 (Oct 21, 2001)

UncleJB said:


> Well at least they are only hiking the price $500. That seems like a decent deal considering the low mileage.
> 
> We have some dealers here that are piling up the TDI's. https://www.noyesvolkswagen.com/use...mizePayment_Module&direction=asc&t=u&fueltype[]=Diesel&sf=sf_fueltype
> 
> Price wise it seems like yours is in line with what they are asking.


I went and saw it last Thursday and was pretty let down. The low mileage was the only good thing about it. It was in pretty poor condition otherwise. It also wasn't the trim level I was expecting. I don't know how accurate kbb is but it was putting it closer to $10k and that was with the CPO. The dealer on this one wouldn't go any lower than $13,750 which, after posting this thread https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?9302879-Residual-value-with-high-mileage-or-buy-second-vehicle-2018-Tacoma decided it wouldn't be financially a good idea, so I'm holding off for now.


----------



## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

fixmy59bug said:


> Yup, They've been available for sale for the last 2 years, almost.
> 
> With a FANTASTIC warranty after the fix to boot.


Was curious to see if VW was reselling these in CA. So a quick search revealed that they are. I found this one on autotrader:
https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for...List=VOLKS&searchRadius=100&clickType=listing

And the link to the Carfax shows that the car's emissions were updated over the course of almost 2 years and the car is now available for sale:
https://www.carfax.com/VehicleHisto...MOz5CpCiuTZo6fe5n3TJFttkohTGPuXk8dHg81IyJliI4


----------

