# Porting a 8V intake, got tips?



## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

I'm in the process of porting a 8V intake manifold for my '83 GTI and was wondering if anyone mite have some good advice for me. So far I have gasket matched the runners and TB opening for the bigger Audi type throttle body. At this point I'm more focused on the runners as they are the most restrictive. I have removed the little "hump" in the #4 port but I need 6" bits to get to the other ones which are farther up. I'm not gona go all crazy and hog the thing out, but I would like to make a significant improvement in terms of air flow. Here are some pictures of my progress at this point.



















_Modified by EuroKid83 at 10:27 PM 10-29-2005_


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## GTOBB (Dec 30, 2003)

I found this in my ppirelli gti


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: (GTOBB)*

How far up is that intake ported?


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: (EuroKid83)*

Again here some results to be had at
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2216565 
I find you need the 6" porting tool to get 10% more flow. 
But if you focus on the top of the port you can get some 5% more as long as its gasket matched.
Stick your finger in the top of the port and you'll find a ridge about 1/2"in.
Straighten that out with out making the port opening more and you'll get some more air in there.
Of just buy one thats ported and tested more than 10% air flow
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...%3AIT
Cheers


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: (ny_fam)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ny_fam* »_Again here some results to be had at
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2216565 
I find you need the 6" porting tool to get 10% more flow. 
But if you focus on the top of the port you can get some 5% more as long as its gasket matched.
Stick your finger in the top of the port and you'll find a ridge about 1/2"in.
Straighten that out with out making the port opening more and you'll get some more air in there.
Of just buy one thats ported and tested more than 10% air flow
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...%3AIT
Cheers 

Yes i have done all this to my intake so far, just can't go any farther into the runners yet. What shape burrs do you use? I did notice something today that's kinda interesting. I have two of the same intake manifold #049 133 223. I noticed on the un ported intake the ports are very close to the size of the gasket matched ports. I also noticed on the un ported intake, the runners are slightly bigger as they run into the bend towards the plenum than on the intake I have been spending so much time on! I think what I'm gona do is find a intake with the biggest stock runners/ports and start over. The difference between the two manifolds is visable to the naked eye!


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## antichristonwheels (Jun 14, 2001)

*Re: Porting a 8V intake, got tips? (EuroKid83)*

I used some small dingleberry hones http://www.brushresearch.com
up in the runners. It's hard on the hones, but effective. Next time I want to try it with the manifold submerged in water and see if it works any easier.


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: Porting a 8V intake, got tips? (antichristonwheels)*

Has anyone ever used ExtrudeHone?


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: Porting a 8V intake, got tips? (EuroKid83)*

Yes, Shawn (Monster8v) has one that was honed. He did not have it done, it was that way when he got it. Never seen pics. It is 385 dollars to have it done. I would highly recommend it for those that have a highly tuned motor, and are squeezing everly last ounce of power from engine. Not huge gains, but shuold help a bit.... Extrud ehone is great, but you pay the price for it







+ODD


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: Porting a 8V intake, got tips? (fast84gti)*

Well here is the finished product. I am very happy with the way it turned out. I may try to go a little farther into the runners if I can. I'm at 3.5 inches into them at this point. Time to bolt it on and feel the power!








You can see more at: http://photobucket.com/albums/a342/EuroKid83/



_Modified by EuroKid83 at 12:05 AM 11-21-2005_


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: Porting a 8V intake, got tips? (EuroKid83)*

Its a nice start, with out building your own tools thats as far has you'll get into the intake. You'll not have got the 10 % more air flow though. 
IF you can't buy it build it. Build and extender our of a bolt for your spinning wheel. that way you can get into the ports, left port needs material taken from the floor. the other 3 need material taken from the bends. and casting bumps found deep in the runners. And each port's exit the you'll notice a bump on the top of the runner, take that out.
Then test it- us a manometer 
http://www.dwyer-inst.com/htdo...n.cfm 
This is the best way to make sure your getting the results you want and can balance the flow between the 4 ports. The right hand port needs more work the the rest...
Also I looked at your TB port with the TB mounted. You need to take more from the left side. It looks like air will be disrupted on the left and bottom of the larger butter fly.
Cheers


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: Porting a 8V intake, got tips? (ny_fam)*

I can go a little farther into the runners with the tools I have. I removed the little bumps in the runners and removed a good amount of material from the bends. It seems like the walls are getting a bit thin, is it safe to remove much more?


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: Porting a 8V intake, got tips? (EuroKid83)*

I wouldn't go over 31.5mm diameter. 
get some thing like this, 1" wire brush, that doesn't have a shank attached, just a mounting while. next get a 6" bolt and two nuts. Cut the head off the bolt then use the two nuts to sandwitch the wheel, mount that to you drill and go at the bends and the casting dimples about 5" in.
http://www.harborfreight.com/c...1.gif
Cheers


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: Porting a 8V intake, got tips? (ny_fam)*

Can you post or send me pictures of a ported intake manifold?


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: Porting a 8V intake, got tips? (EuroKid83)*

emails sent.
I don't have them hosted else I'd post them.


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: Porting a 8V intake, got tips? (ny_fam)*

Thanks for the idea. Also, in a post I downloaded from a magazine back in the early 80's.... You can take a shaft, or something like a bolt with no thread, and cut a slat in the end of it. Put the sand paper in it, and it will work, also. I was thinking about that so you can polish it a bit more.... I don't have time, and have other projects going on, but I do have an extra manifold laying around... Sometime soon. My rabbit needs more power







+ODD


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: Porting a 8V intake, got tips? (ny_fam)*

Thanks for the pix. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: Porting a 8V intake, got tips? (EuroKid83)*

Well I got my ported intake installed today and I gota say I'm pretty impressed. It's like going from a stock exhaust manifold to a header! I tested the flow with a manometer and compared it to a stock intake manifold and T body and there was a significant improvement. Needless to say I was freakin happy!


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

*Ported and ready to go... next up... welding*

***Here is an update. I gave the intake a once over for a third time. I grinded some more areas with wire wheel. Then I used 60, 200, and wet sanded with 500. It looks like it will flow rather well, and not totally polished, either. In the newest pics, there is some dust in there, so it looks rough in some spots. I also took a picture with the weber TB on that I polished, and slimmed the shaft with countersunk screws. It should flow well with the adapter hogged out and the intake matched.
Before:
















After: Still a tiny bit lumpy in port opening in log...








dusty in there...








port #2








Weber TB view







The weber is almost the same as far as total area of the butterfly (weber is tiny bit smaller). BUT it is one opening instead of two with a divider, and it was convienient to have this off the car to get ready. I know it will flow alot better that the a2 stock TB. It is only a tiny bit smaller that a vr6 TB, and this fits better. So no real reason to put a vr6 tb on, until I can weld the flange on to port match it correctly for optimum flow. But the ports are the most important thing right now, until I can flow the head... Any input is welcome. I think I may not feel the difference, so will have to dyno once I get the cable connection figured out on the weber TB.. +ODD



_Modified by fast84gti at 3:47 AM 12-12-2005_


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: Porting a 8V intake, got tips? (fast84gti)*

How are you guys making manometers? I could use one of those. Keep experimenting, and keep us posted.... +ODD


_Modified by fast84gti at 3:49 AM 12-12-2005_


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: Porting a 8V intake, got tips? (fast84gti)*

Hey I really like that idea. porting inside the mani ..
I need to do that too..
Keep us informed how it performs.
Cheers
If i remember this week I'll post how to build a manometer.
Though this is where I first learned abou the idea 
http://www.bolhuijo.com/airflowtest/ .


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: Porting a 8V intake, got tips? (ny_fam)*

Yeah that is a good idea. I may try that on my next manifold. After driving my car a little more I noticed I picked up another 500 RPM in the power band just by porting the intake manifold and adding a bigger T body. It seems I run out of cam before the intake runs out of flow. My next step is to pull the head off and port it, install a G grind cam, Install my header, and run a steel shim head gasket to bump me up to 9.5:1. Fun stuff!
I ported my intake as far as I could possibly go. I stopped rite at the bend in the runners that goes up to the plenum. 


_Modified by EuroKid83 at 6:04 PM 12-10-2005_


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: Porting a 8V intake, got tips? (EuroKid83)*

Thanks for the pics, and stuff. I will keep you all posted. I finished the intake tonight. I gave it a once over with wire wheel, then with 60 grit, then 200, then wet sanded with 500. I hhope 500 is not too smooth. It looks incredible on inside. Shiny, yet not polished. A very even, very smooth wall with very little to no casting. Still a few pits here and there. I will take pics tomorrow if I have time. +ODD


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: Porting a 8V intake, got tips? (fast84gti)*

My first rabbit, I had the cam installed, head milled and bigger tb put on. It was insane the difference. I got 94.7 to the wheels. Not bad. I am doing 112 before current mods and aba/jh... Keep us posted... Todd


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: Porting a 8V intake, got tips? (fast84gti)*

I was wondering if anyone else has noticed a difference between the older 8V intakes and the newer ones that came on the late model cabby. I've got a newer intake manifold and a couple older ones and there is definitely a difference between the two. Check out the picture below, the newer one is on the left and older on the right. What can you see?








I also noticed the "bumps" in #2 and #4 runners are a lot smaller and more streamlined for better flow. The bump in the #3 runner is smaller as well. The alloy this one is made out of is more durable and there are much less little voids in the casting. These newer style castings seem to be lighter weight, they flow slightly better than the early type manifolds, better alloy, and less imperfections in the casting. Perfect for porting!














http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

I updated the earlier post with new pics. They finished it early for me, and I picked it up during lunch. I am buying intake gaskets tonight, and will install sometime this week.... I will keep you all posted...


_Modified by fast84gti at 11:54 PM 12-12-2005_


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

*NICE!*

I started working on the car at 7:45, and had it done by 9:30 and drove to the GTG!. Wow, the throttle modulation is a little annoying, as most people know. BUT the top end gain is noticable... Revs smoother than ever and pulls all the way to 6500 rpm and seems to be making power up to then. I also noticed it doesn't bog as much at low rpm in when going slow in second gear. When I dyno'd before, it made power to 6300, I think. So maybe the ported TB and the ported intake added a bit more.. My friend drove my car this afternoon, and when he heard it this evening he said it was noticeably louder, and seemed to be a little faster, too. I am very happy. Not bad for a 20 dollar weld job, and a 30 dollar weber TB. I would recommend this mod to anybody willing to waste thier time on it!







I think these mods helped the 286 cam a bit. +ODD


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: NICE! (fast84gti)*

thats cool.
good report. you going to stick with the weber or go with a dual butterfly unit ?
Goes to prove once again that the intake manifold is a restriction on the A1 platform. Especially with a 2.0 block that needs more air than the 1.8.
Cheers


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: NICE! (ny_fam)*

I am going to make a return spring to involve a little more effort in the pedal, so it is a smoother movement. It is too light, and does not return quite as well as the a2 tb. I will get use to it. If anything, I am going to make another intake with a vr6 tb when I do head work... I really think a round tb is better when you have everything all matched up, and ported and polished.... +ODD


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: NICE! (fast84gti)*

Well I started porting another intake manifold today. I'm gona do things a little different with this one, can't wait to test it! Once I have it all done I'm gona compare the manometer results with my ported intake I just finished to see if I've made any improvement. I'll post pictures if anyone is interested in looking at it. If I can find someone who is good at welding aluminum I'm gona cut the top of the plenum open and go to town. I removed a little more material in the TB opening on this one and polished it up with some 120 grit rolls. I don't see any advantage in going to a finer grit. Anyway I'll keep yall updated on my progress.


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## fspGTD (Sep 26, 2002)

*Re: NICE! (fast84gti)*

Lots of good info in this thread... thanks for the tips and pictures, guys!
It looks like I've got a later style cabriolet manifold I'm working on. I remember it has the sharp diagonal edge right below the throttle body opening, and it looks like the earlier manifolds in the pictures above have a soft edge here. I have also noticed how smooth and dense the aluminum in it seems to be... smoother surface texture than other VW intake manifolds I have worked with.
Edit: wait, on second thought, I took another look, and uh, I guess I have one of the earlier style manifolds.
I think I recall finding some protrusions just inside the ends of the ports. Haven't looked much deeper than that as it's all dark and dirty inside there still and I need to shine a light to check things out better.
Are the "dimples" 5" in from near where the long mounting bolt hole structures end? I'll have to keep an eye out for those when I do some polishing. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 


_Modified by fspGTD at 6:14 PM 12-16-2005_


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: NICE! (fspGTD)*

This is quite a cool thread...
I wonder if further improvement could be had by, instead of smoothing the port dividers in the plenum out, dropping the dividers (ie removing them) down as much as possible. That would have the effect of increasing plenum size and shortening runner length...
Not sure how much it would help but you never know...
just my $.02 worth...
Peter Tong



_Modified by Peter Tong at 4:03 PM 12-17-2005_


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: NICE! (Peter Tong)*

I'm sure that would help at high RPM's. Man cutting these intake manifolds open is hard. What kind of cutting tools have you guys used to open the plenum?


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

I started with a die grinder and a 4" cutting disc. It was difficult to cut with that, so I just held the disc in one spot until it cut through, then I used a jig saw of all things! A hand held one, with a wood cutting blade. I would recommend a metal blade... HAHAHA. I am hard core! I think I will cut out those dividers on my next one.... I am going to port a mk2 TB and slim the shafts on the butterfly, and see what kind of flow I can get. I like the streetability of the mk2 TB compared to weber. Wish I could afford a P&P job and a rotorcharger LOL







Todd


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## Butcher (Jan 31, 2001)

*Re: (fast84gti)*

I cut manifold once and a jig saw is what I used. It worked fairly well but it was a definately a butch job.


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: (Butcher)*

HAHAHA - I also used a jig saw and it was not as easy as I thought it would be. I'm just about done porting my second manifold now, and It's turning out to be even better than the first one I did. So far I'm into this one about six hours and I'm already 90% done compared to the ten hours to completely finish my first one. I decided to push it a little this time by removing a little more material in the critical areas to get as much airflow out of it as possible. I'm very pleased with the results at this point. I've got about an hour left and it's done! My next adventure is gona be the head. My third manifold is gona be the best over the other two. It's a late model cabby intake manifold I removed from my '84 GTI when I installed my ported intake. The first thing I noticed about this manifold is the runners are slightly bigger and more straight than the early manifold. It's also much smother on the outside and inside of the plenum and runners. The little "bumps" in the #2, 3, and 4 runners are smaller as well. Anyway it will definately be interesting to see how it turn's out.


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: (EuroKid83)*

Here's a picture of my second manifold. It's 90% done at this point.








You can see more here:
http://photobucket.com/albums/a342/EuroKid83/


_Modified by EuroKid83 at 4:15 AM 12-19-2005_


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

*Where did you get that long ass debur bit?* If you cut the log open.. Let's see it! I may start another one, also. Pete Tong had mentinoed cutting more metal off the dividers in the log. To make runners shorter. I was contemplating trying that. Only problem is that the outside of manifold follows contours of runners, even in the divider area. So you cannot cut them out completely as far as I can tell... But ya never know.... I could have some extra metal welded in








Keep us posted. I don't have time to make a manometer, so I don't know how much better the flow is. Don't forget to port your TB! +ODD


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (fast84gti)*

Colin of TT was telling me that he had modified his A1 intake manifold so much that there was more welded metal remaining than original casting... interesting no?


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

Collin sucks. He don't know nuthin! Just kidding. Seeing who's paying attention. Yeah, I am going to have the head ported and polished, then port match the runners. I would love to see some of the CIS stuff Collin has done. Imagine a big garage or warehouse full of research people like him have done... he he.. Because I don't have a business, I don't mind sharing some of the stuff I have done (Wish I had the reasources that some poeple have!). Not that I have really done that much that hasn't been done a thousand million times! Or done better lol


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## fspGTD (Sep 26, 2002)

*Re: (fast84gti)*

I hole-sawed a couple round holes, maybe 1.75" diameter or so, to reach my polishing tools into where the runners open up into the plenum. I am working on an A1 gasser manifold.
I've got an 8" long flap stick which I'm running flap paper (AKA emery cloth strips)... I've had good luck with 60 grit to remove the casting texture. First tried 120 and 80 grit but found it took a very long time to remove much metal with it.
I've been experimenting with using lubricant (WD-40) and not using it. Using it I think makes the sandpaper last longer but it makes a real mess that needs solvent to clean up. After a while it sort of dries out to a greasy consistentency cake that if not periodically cleaned out with solvent loads up fresh paper in a hurry.
I am using cartridge rolls to get out the weird casting crud. I could really use a longer mandrel for that. My longest mandrel for them is 4". But they concentrate the material removing action really well right where you want it, and are much easier to control with a long reach than a carbide burr (not to mention leave a smoother texture.)
I really don't like how close VW chose to route the EGR passageway in this manifold so close to the runners. I cut it all out and welded the hole where it enters the plenum shut already, but I found the material that was left was thin where the passageway came close to runner number 2, and I also found to accomodate the passage that runs parallel to the runners that runner number 3 had an odd long "blip" of metal protruding into the port. The metal looks so thin that I don't know if the blip can be removed without punching through to the other side here. It might not effect airflow that much though. Here is a picture of the EGR passageway "blip" (to get the image to load, copy the URL and paste it into a new fresh new browser that has never touched vortex)
http://www.imagestation.com/pi...6.jpg
I found and removed a few other small protrusions into the runners. (Notable were some minor protrusions into the ports opposite of the heads of the long bolts.) I wouldn't describe any of the protrusions as major. It makes me wonder how much airflow is gained by removing them, versus just getting rid of the rough casting texture.
I also got some cross buffs I will experiment with for finishing soon, but I will need a longer mandrel (only have 4").


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

When I was using wd40.. I found that to clean up, you use a 1/4 rod with a slat cut into it. You can stick a 3m scotchbrite piece in there and use it... or even a sock. The 3m scotchbrite won't really take any metal off, but it cleans up the carbon a bit... Great for cleaning up.... You can get a 3 foot long steel 1/4 rod at home depot. Cut it to length, and use a dremel cutting disc to make slat... Have fun


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: (fast84gti)*

Nice extension for 1/4" die grinder bits







May have to get me one since flap wheels are easy to find with short shanks... +ODD


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## fspGTD (Sep 26, 2002)

*Re: (fast84gti)*

Hmmm... scotchbrite in a flapper stick... could make a poor-man's cross buff... great idea!
It took a bunch of effort, but I managed to clean out the inside of my manifold. First I ran hot water through it. Then I scrubbed with nylon bristles (pipe cleaners, etc) and soap. That got a lot more junk out. But then (after drying), I chucked up a crossbuff in my die grinder and went to town on the darkened walls that hadn't been sanded yet, and I was shocked how much black carbony junk got freed up.
I tried using some flapper paper with the manifold dry, and instead of building up a greasy cake like it does with the WD-40 lubricant, the consumed sandpaper and sanding dust would fly into the air. Easy to suck it up with a vacuum cleaner. Although I think it was a little harder on the paper, I like not having the hard-to-clean grease cake build-up.
By the way cut up belt sander strips work well for the flapper paper as they have fabric backing like emery cloth.


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: (fspGTD)*

If you build one of these it can be used to clean the carbon and what ever else in stuck in there, plus it does a fine job of removing material








habor freight for the disk and 7" bold and two nuts hardware store $1. Then cut of the top of the bold. This is for using a Drill not a dremel like tool.


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: (ny_fam)*

Man you guys are going at it like aluminum grinding maniacs... keep it up!








Here's an old pic of my match ported A2 manifold (getting replaced soon)...











_Modified by Peter Tong at 7:17 PM 12-22-2005_


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## set (Nov 27, 2003)

*Re: Ported and ready to go... next up... welding (fast84gti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast84gti








dusty in there...[img* »_
_Modified by fast84gti at 3:47 AM 12-12-2005_

Having sharp edges between the runners will hurt flow. You would be better off rounding them out again as much as you can. Sharp edges like you find in dual butterfly throttle bodies and multivalve head ports are good when the flow into the two braches are the same, not different like in a manifold.


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: Ported and ready to go... next up... welding (set)*

hmmm. I was not sure what to do with it. I wanted to widen the ports, and make more of a trumpet flare, which is hard to see in that pic. With most hi flow mani's and ITB's, there is more room in bewteen the ports which you can trumpet more. I was trying to venturi them a bit more than they were. Next time I am going to remove more of those walls, and make the ports shorter. As the ports get closer to head, they seperate, so I can trumpet them farther down and make them flare a bit better... Thanks for the input







+ODD


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

*I'm gunna port EVERYTHING!!!! MUHAHAHAHAHA*

Happy holidays. Someone bought me some carbide debur bits on 6" shanks for my present.







Next I am going to get that extender thingy posted above so I can see if flapper wheels work for me, too...







Don't drink too much egg nog! I have problems with lactose so I can't really drink it..







+ODD http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif


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## set (Nov 27, 2003)

*Re: Ported and ready to go... next up... welding (fast84gti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast84gti* »_hmmm. I was not sure what to do with it. I wanted to widen the ports, and make more of a trumpet flare, which is hard to see in that pic. With most hi flow mani's and ITB's, there is more room in bewteen the ports which you can trumpet more. I was trying to venturi them a bit more than they were. Next time I am going to remove more of those walls, and make the ports shorter. As the ports get closer to head, they seperate, so I can trumpet them farther down and make them flare a bit better... Thanks for the input







+ODD

Of course by the time the runners are at the plenum they are very large in diameter in comparison to the ports, so velocity won't be all that high and the difference it would make may be marginal, so I wouldn't be too worried. Keep it in mind for next time though.


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: (fast84gti)*

One thing I did notice after installing my ported intake is I lost a bit of low end torque but I got it back in the mid range and more useable RPM's. Anyone else had this happen?


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

*WOOPTY WOO!*

I have a 286 cam, and did not notice much of a loss. But then again, I don't have much to begine with... I am starting a new intake once I get the carbid burs in the mail. I had to return some, as I got the wrong ones. I don't like the weber TB, so may sell intake and TB together. I have a neuspeed TB and an extra (2) intake laying around. I will keep you all posted as to my dyno results when I have a chance to go ina month or two..


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: WOOPTY WOO! (fast84gti)*

Before I installed my ported intake I was able to stomp the gas in second gear and the tires would spin if the roads were wet. I don't think it was the porting that did it I think it's the TB. Because the "big bore" TB has a bigger secondary butterfly it slows the air down i.e. less velocity until the rpm's go up a bit. I'm gona experiment with two different manifolds, one mildly ported with a stock TB and my ported one with the big bore and see what happens.


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: WOOPTY WOO! (EuroKid83)*

Whats your setup ?
I'm interested in your comment about loosing low end power..
cam, head work? TB, car, year, engine etc..


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: WOOPTY WOO! (ny_fam)*

The car is a '84 GTI 1.8 8V mostly stock. It has a 1.6 cam in it, 9:1 CR, stock head (for now), ported intake with Audi TB, dual outlet exhaust mani with Autotech DP, K&N air filter with modified air box, and I think that's about it. I did retard the timing a bit so maby that had a bit to do with the loss of low end. I believe because the ports and TB are bigger I may have lost a bit of velocity through the mani until I get the rpm's up a bit. I'm gona experiment a bit to see if this is true or not.


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: WOOPTY WOO! (EuroKid83)*

I don't think the intake and TB would make you loose low end with that setup.
In a late 80's VW & Porsche magazine article, the Larger Throttle Body and modified(ported or post 84 ) Intake Manifold combination was evaluated. Their test results stated that a ported intake added 4 HP through the entire power band. 
And with a stock head the air flow doesn't increase above .3" lift, so the cam's not the problem. The air flow stays about steady between .3" and .4" lift.


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

Guys who buy the shot runner intakes for thier crossflows are not losing any torque. So that is good news. I can hog out my runners.. And our runners are shorter than any others for the 8v...


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: (fast84gti)*

That's good. I'm gona advance my timing again and see if that helps.


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: WOOPTY WOO! (ny_fam)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ny_fam* »_ And with a stock head the air flow doesn't increase above .3" lift, so the cam's not the problem. The air flow stays about steady between .3" and .4" lift. 

Yes this is true for the early solid lifter heads. The '83 - '84 GTI head flow's much better.


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: WOOPTY WOO! (EuroKid83)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EuroKid83* »_Yes this is true for the early solid lifter heads. The '83 - '84 GTI head flow's much better. 

Yea much better than the 1.6 and 1.7 non big valve head. But air flow tests/flow bench tests show that the 83 & 84 big valve heads don't flow anymore at .4" lift than at .3" If I remember Peter Tong posted a flow chart a few months ago, Stock big valve vs eurospec vs TT stage 2 showed that air flow characteristic.
I found the same when I tested the 84 head on my car. I don't remember what solved the flow issue. Possibly the ceiling transition to the valve stem area. Anyone else know ?
Cheers


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: WOOPTY WOO! (ny_fam)*

So I was thinking.....we put so much work into these intake manifolds to make them flow better. But what are we doing about this thing.....








Is this intake "tube" very restrictive? How well does it flow? Is there any advantage to those "Big bore" intake tubes? Personally I can't see this being a major obstruction to air flow, and best of all It's plastic so it doesn't conduct heat. What are your thoughts?


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: WOOPTY WOO! (EuroKid83)*

In my testing the air boot from the air flow meter to the tube is the biggest restriction in your picture. 2" of water to pull air through that.
I made this to help the air direct into the air flow through the meter.
I know its crazy








Stock gasket








The problem area - pockets that don't help air flow to the meter









Here it is installed








With this installed Air flow tested 1" of water less pulling air through the air flow meter.
I wonder if the intake boot from a A2 would work better. When you look at the inside of the two you see that the A1 has a big nipple and the A2 style doesn't.
Cheers


_Modified by ny_fam at 3:44 AM 1-13-2006_


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: WOOPTY WOO! (ny_fam)*

ny_fam,
On my Cabby which still uses CIS I've worked through lots of these problems... I ended up using an Audi 5kt boot (matched up better to the wider Volvo 240t flow meter), a straight shot of 3" reinforced silicone tubing, ported throttle body....
















This helped quite a bit on my motor...
Currently focusing on another problem with this car... halfway there to fixing it








All I can say is that in some ways I think we think alike!








Keep up the good work...


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

*WOOPTY WOO!*

Pete, the pic of the boot seems to not be good. Did not finish downloading? NY... What material is that, and what is sealing the air meter? Is the green stuff also sealing? Or did you put a gasket on each side.. Anyhow, looks cool. You should try testing the flow stock, then with your gasket and stock boot, then with a couple of different boots. Good work!!!







+ODD


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: WOOPTY WOO! (fast84gti)*

hi Todd,
If you are using the slightly wider Volvo 240t flow unit then the Audi 5k boot (if it has the shape you need) works better as it has more internal area (no center hump as well) so air takes the corner at a slower speed... also no need for slightly stretching the boot as it is designed for the larger flow meter... the 3" allows air to accelerate into the TB where it can be efficiently consumed by the twin screw. The twin screw requires a very efficient intake so all this has been important, and I noticed a noticeable amount of gain when going to the newer setup.
I'm still using the 16v lower CIS airbox... so there may still be a limitation on flow due to the smaller intake orifice up top.
I'm going through the entire setup to eliminate flow problems...its a fun process actually. Part of what I need to do to achieve my whp goal on CIS...


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

*ok, uh huh, wa sup, shutup!*

I think the power goal is the same for all of us!!!







But mine is to stay NA, and at least fuel injected. CIS for now, since I have it. Well, the 16v euro CIS box I have seems to maybe be a hair bit bigger than the US one, as I have to stretch the boot to fit. So I am going to the junkyard tomorrow and look for something that may work. Thanks for the info. I am looking for anything that may gain even a quarter of a horsy. Heck, even one Shetland sheep horsie is enough for me. I have access to microfische for an audi 5k, so if I have to buy a new boot, it should not be too much. I bought a rabbit one brand new for 30 bucks.. Anyhow.. Thanks for sharing, everyone. This thread has helped me alot!!!!! +ODD
Pete, do you think this would help you at all? I am not sure it did much for me other than running louder and a bit cooler... 3" for like 20 bucks from Home Depot. I may do another one that angles down more, and the gasket thing NY made!


















_Modified by fast84gti at 12:14 AM 1-14-2006_


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: ok, uh huh, wa sup, shutup! (fast84gti)*

I would duct it to a low temperature area... but it certainly can't have hurt...
I will be revising my airbox as soon as I have time to do it...


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: ok, uh huh, wa sup, shutup! (Peter Tong)*

Hey Peter, are you going to try out that crazy green gasket (CGG)? 
Here is the CGG FAQ:
What material is that? 
The air flow gasket from a cutting board sheet they sell at wal-mart and food stores. Its a flexable, hard, sheet of plastic used as a cutting board that you can through in the dish washer @ .99 each.
Did you need anything additional to seal the air meter, other than the green material? 
No just the CGG, its below the air meter so any air that seeps in just by-passes the air filter. I took OEM cork gasket off since it was a tight space to work in.
What Does it do?
The air flow path is obstructed by the casting pockets in the bottom of the air flow plate. All the air is being pulled into the large airflow plate opening, the gasket helps direct the air to the large air flow plate thus reducting the poor air characteristics caused by the casting pockets.
Cheers


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

*ok, uh huh, wa sup, shutup!*








4 inch piping fits over the opening, so I was thinking about trimming the edge to match up with it. Mine now goes to grille. There is a divider that blocks the radiator heat from getting in, when vehicle is stopped... I cut little lines in grille so it can flow into the pipe. I take it off when it rains (not often here in socal).. Grille is cut with thin lines so stuff doesn't get in... This is old pic. I copied monster 8v, who has his angled down, but same opening with the 4 inch, now.....
Old set up with 3 inch, ducted to cooler area.
















I am hoping that a new boot, the ported TB, ported intake, ported exhaust manifold and the gasket NY made, will give me a little more on next dyno.. I will be very happy with 2 to 5 horses more. I need 7 more to have same power to weight ratio as a mustang GT stock.


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

*How dare you!*

My room mate use to have a boyfriend who worked at a place that cuts metal (small pieces with the lazer thingy). I could have a program made that would have very close tolerances to the air meter arm... hmmm Too bad she is no longer with him!!!! LOL Just make one from thin sheet metal, then use some silicone sealer. I am going to try your technique... CCG... Love that term...


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: WOOPTY WOO! (Peter Tong)*

Hey pete, where did you get that radiator and how well does it work? I like the half radiator half inter cooler thing you got goin on.


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: WOOPTY WOO! (EuroKid83)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EuroKid83* »_Hey pete, where did you get that radiator and how well does it work? I like the half radiator half inter cooler thing you got goin on. 
]
OT: its a custom made Howe dual core radiator... temps are down to around 110F by the time coolant hits the end of the upper radiator that you can see in the pic. Coolant then goes through another dual pass Howe radiator that goes the full length below the IC and the first rad then back into the water pump... I do have a temp sensor at the end of that rad but haven't measured the temp (it would likely be quite a bit lower than 110F but I haven't measured it - rad fan almost never kicks on)...
Have any of you flow benched your improved intakes?


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

I am going to make another ported intake. I would like to have it tested, but don't know where to take it. I will see if I can find someone to test it.. I got an audi 5k intake boot at the junkyard. Looks nice. And I just made a gasket like NY made. Wel.. That's it, here. That radiator is crazy!! Me want!


_Modified by fast84gti at 8:22 PM 1-15-2006_


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

I made the CGG for sh its and giggles. Mine is clear, though. I also got an Audi 5000 intake boot. I had to cut down my ABD intake pipe. I cut it a smidge too short, but works just fine. I noticed the idle changed. Also, it seems to run smoother between 4-5k. I think it did make a tiny bit of difference. I am now making a new lower airbox. I am changing the angle of the pipe, so it directs the air up towards the filter and opening of the air meter. More natural flow, instead of the way it is now. The air goes into lower box, then hits the wall. I am hoping that should help a tiny bit. I am getting really anxious to port and polish head I have now. Also, make a new intake manifold. With what I know now, I should be able to eek some more power out. My goal is 125 or so. I was at 112 before. I am going to dyno with new mods, but stock head. Same cam. Anyhow, that's it for now... Peter, the audi 5k boot is same diameter as the rabbit one. I had to stretch it a bit to get it to pop onto the euro CIS air meter.... It looks the same as yours, too. I will post pics after I finish the lower intake.... Todd


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: (fast84gti)*

I've been taking a brake from porting bump.


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: (EuroKid83)*

I'm getting started again.
I'm going to cut the top off one and bore the insides out like Todd did, and the runners like I normallu do. I'll post the test results when I'm done.
Cheers


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: (ny_fam)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ny_fam* »_I'm getting started again.
I'm going to cut the top off one and bore the insides out like Todd did, and the runners like I normallu do. I'll post the test results when I'm done.
Cheers

Yeah about as soon as I posted my "taking a brake bump" I started planning what I was going to do on my next manifold! I have two that I'm working on rite now but I have a problem with one of them. I'll post pictures soon so you can see what I'm talking about.


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: (EuroKid83)*

I got a new barrel sender 3" barrel 1" wide. 4.5" long. Works great, 
Opps I went through the wall on one side already.


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: (ny_fam)*

HAHAHAHA! JB weld! Where did you get the long barrel sander? I found a nice die grinder shank extension. 4.5 inches, or 9 inches. Will accept any 1/4 inch bit. Then I can use flapper wheels







My clutch went out, so I have to work on that next. I am not in mood to replace it. So maybe I will work on the scirocco exhaust. The cam in the GTI is too big for the rocco, so I may look into a g grind or something. 
Keep us posted as to what you people are up to. I may just pull whole engine, although it runs great. I am just tired of leaks, and wanna replace gaskets and rehone cylinders. I may also do a 16v ABA. Not sure yet. I still prefer 8v's, but am getting power hungry. So any of this knowledge I apply to a 16v is going to yield more power. I must be hardcore 8v, and thrifty. I just don't want to spend twice as much on an engine for parts.







+ODD


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

Oh, I will call Fumio Fukaya and see if he has a flow bench. I will have him test my intakes. I will keep you guys posted if that happens...


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## elmer fud (Aug 5, 2003)

is there room in the eingine compartment to use something like this insted of the cis boot. 








or pvc pipe 








also if ther isnt could we move the cis dizzy lower, would it still work in a difrent location. 
seems like there would be no prblems doing that other then re routing all the lines.


_Modified by elmer fud at 2:23 AM 2-3-2006_


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

No, and the fact that the opening on the CIS air meter is rather large, compared to the 3" opening on the TB makes it a difficult... You would need an adpater. The only real issue with CIS is the air meter flap itself. Not much you can do other than going EFI







Not worth the hassle. Try an Audi 5k boot. It is a little better flowing. It does not have the venturi type bump like the JH CIS boot does. You just have to custom make a 3" pipe (shorter than an ABD pipe).


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: (fast84gti)*

Interesting, what does the Audi 5000 boot look like?


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

See Pete's on page 2 of this thread.


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: (fast84gti)*

Will that boot work on a rabbit intake tube?


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

No. I just made a custom black plastic one from a Turbo diesel truck recall part. I got a bunch of em. The tube it self is not the recall problem, it's the connectors, which I cut off. I like plastic, as it insulates heat better. The tube you use must have a bend in it. Pete could use a straight tube, since he has a straight shot to supercharger.


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## EuroKid83 (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: (fast84gti)*

Here are the two problem areas on the 8V intake manifolds. If your not careful you can grind rite through and make a hole. I found this out first hand. I'm gona have these two spots welded so I have a little more material to work with. 
















This is the later style 8V intake manifold. I found that these have a better internal shape in the runners and plenum than the earlier ones. I also found you don't have to remove as much metal and still get the same results and better. I made a tool to "feel" the inside of the runners and compare the size to an earlier manifold. I discovered the runners are already bigger (un-ported) than the early manifolds. Also with the later style manifolds you don't have to go as far into the runners as you do on the early type. The conclusion? I'm not gona waste my time on the early type manifolds anymore. These ones are much better to begin with. I'm gona build a better manometer and do some testing very soon. I'll be sure to post my results.


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## fast84gti (Mar 2, 2003)

*Re: (EuroKid83)*

I am just bumping this because I feel like it.. May be doing more work to car soon... Summer fun! Keep up the research, freaks..


_Modified by fast84gti at 8:30 AM 4-22-2006_


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## tt_silver (Jul 14, 2008)

*Re: (fast84gti)*

Bump for a good thread!!


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## Sbailey294 (Jan 30, 2006)

*Re: (tt_silver)*

this was a good read... did anybody who still has their car take this any further?


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: (Sbailey294)*

Done more porting and testing. Here are some of the results.
http://www.scientificrabbit.com/node/1
I've come to the conclusion that a ported intake can have a significant difference in power out put. 
The stage I (porting of just the lower runners) is great for street car, with few mods to lots of mods.
Stage III (porting lower runners and upper runners with plenum cut off) - great for race setups, high end street cars with lots of work, and those willing to move some of the low end power to the top end.
Interesting thread by a guy who picked up a used stage 3 mk1 intake manifold.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4159121 

When porting these intakes straighter is better and just going bigger. Air speed has a very big impact on power output.



_Modified by ny_fam at 6:45 PM 6-7-2009_


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Re: WOOPTY WOO! (EuroKid83)*


_Quote, originally posted by *EuroKid83* »_So I was thinking.....we put so much work into these intake manifolds to make them flow better. But what are we doing about this thing.....








Is this intake "tube" very restrictive? How well does it flow? Is there any advantage to those "Big bore" intake tubes? Personally I can't see this being a major obstruction to air flow, and best of all It's plastic so it doesn't conduct heat. What are your thoughts? 

Junk that thing and get a 3" 45degree silicone hose and 18 inches or so of 3" aluminum tubing. put the sliicone piece on the TB and then twist the trap door cap till it's a straight shot to the silicone finish with the 3 inch tube between them. it's good for 500-800 rpms of top end.


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## ny_fam (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: WOOPTY WOO! (Prof315)*

Have to be very careful putting a large intake tube on these small displacement engines. One of the race teams I've done a intake for tested one of these big bore intakes against the stock tube and found the big tube lost power and torque at the top end also. 
I think the diameter isn't all that bad but you can eliminate the bend coming off the fuel dizzy with a straight pipe like you mentioned and a better smoother part that connects to the TB.
The zip tube has an important job of packing air into the plenum. Grape Ape racing has a good article on calculating the ID and the length of the zip tube.
http://www.grapeaperacing.com/...s.pdf


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## Sbailey294 (Jan 30, 2006)

*Re: (tt_silver)*

this was a good read... did anybody who still has their car take this any further?


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## Jettaboy1884 (Jan 20, 2004)

*Re: (fast84gti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *fast84gti* »_I made the CGG for sh its and giggles. Mine is clear, though.... 
I am changing the angle of the pipe, so it directs the air up towards the filter and opening of the air meter. More natural flow, instead of the way it is now. The air goes into lower box, then hits the wall. I am hoping that should help a tiny bit...
I am getting really anxious to port and polish head I have now. Also, make a new intake manifold. 

Now that I saw this thread, I'll make a CGG as well. I've got the itch to do a few more tricks to the motor this summer.
A long time ago, I used fiberglass to bond a soup can to the airbox. I did it in a way that the air would be "aimed" right at the airflow plate. At the very least, it worked well at drawing more cool air into the airbox.
Be cautious about home-brew porting. It's very easy to go overboard and do more harm than good. There are a few excellent threads in regards to porting the 8v head.
If I may: There are some good links in this thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3472422


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