# Recommendations for 1.6 race engine



## beqa16v (Oct 10, 2010)

Hi everybody. My name is Beka, I live in Republic of Georgia. Glad to become the part of the forum which I have been using as a guide for some time already. 
I am rebuilding a single seater race car which was originally produced in the USSR and had a LADA engine. The tubular frame is in a very good condition, so is the suspension. The gearbox also works. I need to make a new bodykit since the old one is useless already, also need to make a custom pedal assembly on which I'm working now. The engine is missing as well and that is the reason I'm posting here. 
After researching for a while I decided to go with 1.6 liter VW 8v engine out of the MK3. Hondas are good but they rev counter clockwise so they are out. Out of all others, VW is most widely available here, is quite small and simple (ignition distributor) which means that I can easily modify it to run on Webbers. Mods are also much cheaper than on japanese engines or BMW m43 for instance. 
I have been searching and researching on this forum for quite a while but I still have several questions since most people build ABA engines as far as 8v is concerned. 
The aim is to build a 1.6 race engine which would rev high and not be too expensive. The Stock 1.6 Mk3 engine has 75hp. I would like to rise it up to 120-130 at the crank if possible. Since the car will not belong anywhere close to the street, I do not care about fuel efficiency and good idle. One of my main priorities is also to buy stuff from one shop to avoid multiple overseas shipping rates. From what I have searched Autotech provides all items I would like to have. 

*Camshaft* 
I have read a lot about cams here. For me it seems that 288 or a bit higher cam would be perfect but does autotech have it? They do not seem to list it at least. 

*Springs* 
The engine will be eurospec and therefore with double springs (correct me if I'm wrong) but I think I will need to upgrade them still. Autotech has them so i think they are fine. 

*Valves* 
Do I need to really change them for the horspower output I'm looking for? 

*Bottom end* 
I would like to go with combination of various oem parts on this regard, provided that the displacement will be 1.6 liters. Therefore please recommend which pistons, rods I can use. I read audi rods are somehow better but could not find out why. What compression (and how) on OEMs can I run on the kind of a cam I'm looking for? 

I'm also concerned over the knock sensor. The car will have solid mount which might lead to false knock alarms. Therefore I want to disable all electronic control over the engine whatsoever. Will the stock ignition work? 

Thanks for reading this, I'm really counting on your comments but before, enjoy some pics of my project 

 

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## jbigs268 (Dec 1, 2009)

Looks like a sick project. Wish i could help, good luck :thumbup:


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## beqa16v (Oct 10, 2010)

maybe this thread needs to be moved to motorsport?


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## fukdapo9 (Aug 12, 2010)

damnn gonna be sick...you should just slap a vrt on there..g/l with the build man:beer::beer:


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## beqa16v (Oct 10, 2010)

I hate disproportionate use of force  
This race car was designed for a 1.6 liter engine. I had couple of sportcars and used to race them but never had the experience of a formula car. Therefore other than killing me and demolishing the gearbox at once, I think with VR turbo it will be uncontrollable and not fun at all. In my understanding the car must have a good overall balance. Speed on straights will be enough anyway. It is so light that it rolls even if you kick it slightly with your foot.


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## Chillbill (Jul 8, 2010)

If I'm not mistaken, the model of the race car in question is Estonia and it comes from... Estonia  
Pic of analogous car: 










Are there any stock car racing series in Georgia, namely Super 1600? I inquire this as there is such a series in the Baltics and consequently also quite a lot of know-how regarding building 1.6l race engines. I point out that it is by no means a miracle to turn out around 200hp from a 1.6litre VW unit. 

If you want then I am able to provide you with details to a Estonian circuit racing forum, from which to obtain additional information regarding Estonia formula cars and 1.6l VW race engines. I think the locals would be thrilled of seeing someone restoring an old Estonia outside Estonia (err, hope you get my point).


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## fukdapo9 (Aug 12, 2010)

beqa16v said:


> I hate disproportionate use of force
> This race car was designed for a 1.6 liter engine. I had couple of sportcars and used to race them but never had the experience of a formula car. Therefore other killing me and demolishing the gearbox at once, I think with VR turbo it will be uncontrollable and not fun at all. In my understanding the car must have a good overall balance. Speed on straights will be enough anyway. It is so light that it rolls even if you kick it slightly with your foot.


 yea i wasnt serious hahah but seems like you really know your stuff..again good luck sir:beer:


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## beqa16v (Oct 10, 2010)

> If I'm not mistaken, the model of the race car in question is Estonia and it comes from... Estonia
> Pic of analogous car:
> 
> 
> ...


 Yes this is exactly estonia 21. It was used by one automotive service center as a promo. It was standing there outside under rain and snow. So I grabbed it for quite cheap. 
I get your point. Thanks for the offer. I'm not looking for 200hp so far as I want to get used to driving it first. I would be glad to see the links. But I do not think Estonians will be quite happy to see what I want to do with the car. I'm planing to make some amendments to the chassis (moving the driver seat back for about 25cm) and making a newer styled bodykit with a front adjustable wing and modern sidepods. 

As for racing series in Georgia, well there is a super 1600 series but nothing for formulas and there are no VW engines used as well. Mostly Hondas and some Peugouts. The only track we have is being rebuilt by one businessman (finally thanks to god) and there might be something in the future. Nothing for an old car like estonia though.


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## beqa16v (Oct 10, 2010)

anybody?  
up


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## LG6R (Oct 20, 2003)

North America didn't get the 1.6 liter so probably no one on here will be able to help you with any 1.6-specific questions. But best of luck, sounds like a great deal of fun.:beer:


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## rankadoodle (Sep 5, 2010)

looks..... safe.......


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## ftillier (Nov 30, 2002)

The power levels you're looking for are far beyond what I was building for, so unfortunately I probably won't hvae much useful to add. I think you'll need solid lifters rather than hydraulic if you want to rev really high. I'm interested to see what you come up with. You may be able to pick up an older super-Vee engine, which might make close to the power you're looking for. 

Good luck! 
-Fab


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## beqa16v (Oct 10, 2010)

ftillier said:


> The power levels you're looking for are far beyond what I was building for, so unfortunately I probably won't hvae much useful to add. I think you'll need solid lifters rather than hydraulic if you want to rev really high. I'm interested to see what you come up with. You may be able to pick up an older super-Vee engine, which might make close to the power you're looking for.
> 
> Good luck!
> -Fab


 How high can I actually rev without converting to solid lifters? And what is the biggest cam I can ran on hydraulic?


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## beqa16v (Oct 10, 2010)

Bought equipment for front braking system 
master cylinder 
brake hoses and lines 
a hub and a custom machined adapter 

the answer on my question in my previous post about reving with hydraulic cam is still wanted


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## GTLITE72 (Apr 16, 2007)

Congrats on the pick-up of your new toy. From what I have read it looks like you are looking for a "Super Vee" 
engine from the late 70's early 80's. It was a formula class that was based on the 1.6L using either carbs or 
mechanical fuel injection. The cam was pretty radical in that the rule was max lift was .500 but you had unlimited 
duration. Which was great when you were running a 1000lb formula car but didn't translate well to sedans. 
There were many configuration of engine set-ups mostly all using dry-sump oiling systems. Schrick made a 
wet sump system that bolted a modified high volume oil pump and a very shallow oil pan, Bertil and Brabum (sp) 
motors were typically oiled by pumps that were bolted on the side of the block where the mechanical fuel pumps 
bolted and used a custom aux shaft that had a gear on it to drive the pump. Currently since Bertil has since retired 
I think the best bet you are going to find for a dry sump oiling system would be a company here in the States 
called Armstrong Race Engineering (Gary Armstrong). He sells dry-sump oil pumps and pans for the application you need. 
I think I may have a used (one season old) custom Bertils set-up that used custom made 150mm Carrelo Rods 
and JE Pistons. I transfered my oiling system over to my new 1.8 motor so it isn't available. 
Here is a picture of it on the Dyno at the beginning of last season.








Let me know if any of this has been helpful.


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## beqa16v (Oct 10, 2010)

GTLITE72 said:


> Congrats on the pick-up of your new toy. From what I have read it looks like you are looking for a "Super Vee"
> engine from the late 70's early 80's. It was a formula class that was based on the 1.6L using either carbs or
> mechanical fuel injection. The cam was pretty radical in that the rule was max lift was .500 but you had unlimited
> duration. Which was great when you were running a 1000lb formula car but didn't translate well to sedans.
> ...


 Thanks a lot for info. 
Yes I have heared about super Vee but do not really want to build a really extreme engine. 
Which cam do you think will be better for me if i decide to stay with hydraulic and upgrade springs? 276 or 288? and how high can i rev with that setup?


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## GTLITE72 (Apr 16, 2007)

288 is good for 8200 with a well balanced 1.6, 272 is good for 7500 safely. Have you looked at WEB 
CAMSHAFTS? I am running one of their 206 grind cams and the support they have provided has been 
wonderful. They have a good selection and hydro cams and all the specs listed on their site. 
Sorry I don't have a ton of Hydro experience all mine is with solid lifter motors.


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## beqa16v (Oct 10, 2010)

GTLITE72 said:


> 288 is good for 8200 with a well balanced 1.6, 272 is good for 7500 safely. Have you looked at WEB
> CAMSHAFTS? I am running one of their 206 grind cams and the support they have provided has been
> wonderful. They have a good selection and hydro cams and all the specs listed on their site.
> Sorry I don't have a ton of Hydro experience all mine is with solid lifter motors.


 Thanks man 
I checked out WEB camshafts, they really have a big choice but do they only build cams? I mean no springs, cam gears etc? 
what about low end performance on each of these (288 vs 276)? when do the power kicks in? 
Sorry for so many questions. I'm not new to engines and cars but new to VW definitely.


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## GTLITE72 (Apr 16, 2007)

Typically most of the performance cams on the market come in between 3500 and 4200 RPMs. 
What are you going to do for an oiling system? I think if you run a factory system the engine will set up too 
high in the chassis and you not be able to bolt up to your gearbox. Do you have any pics with the bodywork off?


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## beqa16v (Oct 10, 2010)

Yes, I have some pics. I also have pics of assembled car with the bodywork off. I guess that will be more usefull. I will post them later today, I'm at work now. However I can not recall a dry sump system on them. My guess is they were running modified oil pans or something of that sort. 
The thing that bothers me is whether all those cams for 8v which i have been looking at (techtronics, WEB, CAT etc) will run on eurospec heads, particularly 1.6 (which was not available in US as I have learned here) I have no idea whether heads are the same for all 8v or not. Have to find a local mechanic or somebody who works on them I guess. 

Actually I found this: http://www.lomakovka.ru/Estoniya.html here are pictures of the car with the engine


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## GTLITE72 (Apr 16, 2007)

The gearbox looks like a Hewland FT200 or a Webster both of which plenty of parts and bellhousing 
adapters to fit most any motor. 
I was under the impression that the eurospec head and US heads were pretty much the same as far as cam 
set-up and overall design go. I think the only difference in 8V heads is weather or not it is cross-flow or non. 
I'm going to look around my shop this weekend, I should have a an almost complete set-up for a supervee 
motor. (Bell housing adapter, oil pan, starter, flywheel and clutch) The only thing I think I am missing is an oil 
pump.


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## beqa16v (Oct 10, 2010)

GTLITE72 said:


> The gearbox looks like a Hewland FT200 or a Webster both of which plenty of parts and bellhousing
> adapters to fit most any motor.
> I was under the impression that the eurospec head and US heads were pretty much the same as far as cam
> set-up and overall design go. I think the only difference in 8V heads is weather or not it is cross-flow or non.
> ...


 Good that heads are the same in all displacements, that makes less headache. 
As for gearbox, no man, this gearbox is a general automotive unit from old USSR produced ZAZ which had a rear engine. Internally everything is different though. 
I just got the number of one veteran racer who used to race this particular car in 80s. He told me that there was no dry sump used. It had a modified oil pump which would move under G forces to pick oil from parts of the sump where there was most of it. 

Here are some further pics with installed engine:


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## GTLITE72 (Apr 16, 2007)

I will check the pictures when I get home they did not load on my work computer.


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## beqa16v (Oct 10, 2010)

GTLITE72 said:


> I will check the pictures when I get home they did not load on my work computer.


did you manage to open them?


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## sump scraper (Apr 13, 2008)

you should try to find a 1.6eg aka heron motor
it came in the early europe gti
in stock form it was rated at 110hp
up the comp ratio and p&p the head with some twn dcoes you should be able to get about 120-130 hp


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## beqa16v (Oct 10, 2010)

sump scraper said:


> you should try to find a 1.6eg aka heron motor
> it came in the early europe gti
> in stock form it was rated at 110hp
> up the comp ratio and p&p the head with some twn dcoes you should be able to get about 120-130 hp


yeah i know about those engines, the are from Golf I GTi. But i have not seen any of those here and not sure if i can get one. I think working on 8v 1.6 will be easier in terms of price and availability.


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## CyaLaterGti (Dec 7, 2009)

hey 

here is little video about formula estonia with vw engine and weber carbs motor swaped in. 

http://tv.motors24.ee/artiklid/TV/Amperi+garaaz/10868-Amperi+Garaaz+-+22.aspx


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## beqa16v (Oct 10, 2010)

CyaLaterGti said:


> hey
> 
> here is little video about formula estonia with vw engine and weber carbs motor swaped in.
> 
> http://tv.motors24.ee/artiklid/TV/Amperi+garaaz/10868-Amperi+Garaaz+-+22.aspx


yeah I saw that one, thanks anyway 

I have read the thread about differences between OBDI and OBDII ABA engines. I wonder if there is the same difference with 1.6 liter ones. I found OBDII 1.6 (ABU) crossflow engine very cheap but I'm not sure whether to pick it up as OBDI seems to have an advantage from what I read.


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## beqa16v (Oct 10, 2010)

Have not picked up the engine yet, but there are some news.
Firstly, my Tilton brake balance bar arrived:










Also got gifted the set of slick tires in great condition


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## beqa16v (Oct 10, 2010)

the work on a custom pedal assembly has started. here is what it looks like now



used this tilton brake balance bar:



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## beqa16v (Oct 10, 2010)

So when looking for the engine I ran into one in junkyeard with bad piston rings. They are offering it for 50 bucks. Since I want to rebuild it anyway, I do not care about rings at all. They say it is out of a 1995 golf III but are unaware of other specifications. It is a crossflow, with fuel injection. I took some pics with my mobile phone but will be able to upload them only in the evening when i get back from work. 

How can i tell the difference between EA111 and EA827 by looking at the engine when it is out of the car?

thanks a lot


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## F3t1sh (Oct 17, 2008)

Nice work on the pedals but wouldn't you want to keep your weight down? Im sure you there is a way to weld a little piece of metal to bolt on an aluminum bar to keep the weight down.

Your project, just a suggestion. Keep up the good work!


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## beqa16v (Oct 10, 2010)

Thanks for suggestion. Those things are much lighter than they look actually. Reliability is another issue. This is a custom built assemby and I do not want anything to break on me at over 100mph. I’m also installing a 15kg lighter engine compared to what these things used to have orignially and do not worry much about extra 0.5-1kg 
do you have any idea about my last question concerning EA111 and EA827 blocks?


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## beqa16v (Oct 10, 2010)

here are some pics. can anyone say which one it is? my guess is its EA111


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## Chris Eyre (Jul 31, 2002)

Probably a bit late for you but that engine looks to me like the small block VW engine, based on the old 1100s/1300s of the late '70s/early '80s and evolved.

The EA827 is always spotted by the lump at the front of the sump.

Ref prepping an engine using OE parts, there are all sorts of options from the old heron head EG-blocked 1588c motors to the crossflow.

Engine bore/stroke configs here:

http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228971

8v production engines here:

http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=230780

This thread discusses 1600 engine options:

http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=225514

Hope that's useful and not too late :thumbup:


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## beqa16v (Oct 10, 2010)

Have not posted for a while, but i gave up on the VW engine. I was recommended by Estonia enthusiasts to keep the car in its original form. Not many of these are left and they are quite a rarity now. The original lada 1.6 8v engine is installed already and its rebuild is ongoing. Will be P&Ping the head myself and runing it with the 289cam, lightened T-shaped valves, BMW M20 double valve springs (direct fit), custom exhaust and bike carbs.

here is the engine test fitted in the chassis


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## beqa16v (Oct 10, 2010)

OK
I have not posted in this thread for quite some time. I have decided to use the original engine which is a Lada engine 1.6 liter but I will try to modify it to bring the power up to around 130hp.

The custom shifter rod was fabricated as the original one was missing. Used a 16mm steel tube for that


The new clutch, pressure plate by Sachs were purchased


The Lada engine was fitted into the chassis. The original plan was to just drive the car around a bit to test everything, then disassemble and do some painting, engine rebuild etc


After the first test without the bodykit, the car was fully disassembled in the garage


These bike carbs will fit the engine when its rebuilt. The are 38mm Keihins


Stock valves were modified according to specs to T-shaped for much better flow than standard. Double springs are from BMW M20 engine and serve as alternatives to expensive Schricks. The engine runs on solid lifters in stock and pistons have ditches for valves which means that i can rev this thing with proper cams and these springs.


The head is being ported here but its finished now. The head was originally designed for 1.2. and was used on all engines from 1.2 to 1.6 which means that stock intake and exhaust channels were terribly under performing.


The flywheel was lightened from 6.6 to 4.5 kilos according to specs and was balanced together with the crankshaft


I want this engine to be really quick revving and responsive. The ultimate power is not enough, 130 will be fine for me.

Currently the tubular frame is being polished to remove the paint. It will be repainted soon with suspension parts to give it a good black matted look.


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## damole911 (Aug 2, 2011)

you might be able to use a 1.6 with a g40 head if you can find one from a polo or something


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