# TTRS Clutch Options



## Optimus812 (May 5, 2012)

Hey guys, looks like I'll be in need of a clutch sooner than later. Went out today with my stage II on the highway and slipped pretty good a couple of times, especially when cold. It seemed to hold better when everything was hot, which I find strange.. Anyway, the only options I see for aftermarket clutches is a four puck from APR and a clutch that was used in this build (http://www.redlinespeedworx.com/apr-ttrs-stage-3-build-gtx-3576-650hp-daily-driven/). 

Having a 6 puck in previous cars, I'm not sure I want something that hardcore in the TTRS in terms of engagement. I don't mind a stiffer pedal as long as I can slip it. Should I look at options in the UK?

Thanks!


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Optimus812 said:


> Hey guys, looks like I'll be in need of a clutch sooner than later. Went out today with my stage II on the highway and slipped pretty good a couple of times, especially when cold. It seemed to hold better when everything was hot, which I find strange.. Anyway, the only options I see for aftermarket clutches is a four puck from APR and a clutch that was used in this build (http://www.redlinespeedworx.com/apr-ttrs-stage-3-build-gtx-3576-650hp-daily-driven/).
> 
> Having a 6 puck in previous cars, I'm not sure I want something that hardcore in the TTRS in terms of engagement. I don't mind a stiffer pedal as long as I can slip it. Should I look at options in the UK?
> 
> Thanks!


How obvious was your clutch slip when cold? Any videos? 

I've done some research on the clutch options, and there isn't a clear best option. Some options are:

1) Stock. Many folks report success running the stock clutch on stage 2 (and even stage 3) TT-RS cars if you don't do aggressive launches. There are no reported holding torques published, so it's hard to compare when you get with the "upgrade" clutches over stock. One thing that is great about the stock clutch is that it has a self-adjusting mechanism built into the pressure plate that adjusts for disc wear to keep the preload / engagement consistent. I've yet to see an aftermarket clutch that includes this, which can result in issues down the line as you wear down the disc.

2) Sachs "performance" pressure plate + organic disc. This is rated for "550+ N*m", which is equivalent to 406 ft*lbs. That's barely over the stock torque of ~360 ft*lbs, and well below even a Stage 1 reflash. So again, it's not clear what this clutch buys you over stock, since stock is also organic. Note that most all of the aftermarket clutch options use this Sachs "performance" pressure plate and repaint / rebrand it, with different disc materials. I assume this clutch holds more than stock, and Sachs underrates it. This retains use of the stock dual-mass flywheel. http://www.sachsperformance.com/Sac...-quattro-250-kW-;-05/2009-:::2_3_538_539.html










3) Sachs "4-puck" racing clutch disc. This is what APR recommends (it supposedly holds 600+ ft*lbs). But due to the reduced friction area, this clutch will not last anywhere near the length of a stock clutch (far less total material that will wear more quickly over time). The 4-puck clutches are known to have more harsh engagement and some chatter when feathering from a start at low RPM. This retains use of the stock dual-mass flywheel.










4) DXD / South Bend clutch kits. From what I can tell, DXD / South Bend takes the Sachs "performance" pressure plate, paints it red, and then takes OEM discs and removes the center spline section (to re-use) and attaches their own friction materials (depending on the "stage"). I've heard that they have versions that retain the dual-mass flywheel, but most installs seem to go with a single-mass flywheel replacement. The latter has various NVH and engagement smoothness impacts (nothing I wanted to compromise for a daily driver).

5) Dual-disc clutch from 034 Motorsports (Clutchmasters unit currently). 034 is testing their own custom clutch solutions for the TT-RS. I'll let them chime in on any issues with their setup, but IMO this is an "aggressive" racing solution, not a daily driver (it requires changing to a single-mass flywheel).

6) Dual-disc clutch from Helix (UK). They currently make a "race" version that is 215mm in diameter and requires a flywheel change to single-mass, and is unsprung. A few folks in the UK are running these (including "johnnyc"). The "puck" version holds 870 N*m (641 ft*lbf), while their organic face version holds 700 N*m (516 ft*lbf). They are supposedly working on a "street" version in a larger 228mm disc that allows them to fit springs in the twin plate config for smooth engagement for road cars. I suspect though that hanging all of this inertia off of the transmission will be a problem for the synchros, which were designed for a light unspring disc (and a sprung dual-mass flywheel instead). 

7) Dual-disc clutch from APR (still in development with no clear timeframe). This is supposedly a carbon/carbon clutch disc setup, with serviceable carbon friction surface inserts. Hard to tell much else until more info is released, but if it's anything like the Stage 3, it will be a long time in the making (and of course worth the wait for those that do).


So after all of that, I'm tempted to just stick with stock (or replace stock with stock if I have slipping issues), because:
1) stock is designed to work with the dual-mass flywheel
2) the stock pressure plate auto-adjusts for even loading / release control as the disc thickness changes over life as it wears

Last thing I want to do is put in an aftermarket clutch, have it work fine today, and then start slipping / develop issues as it wears (plenty of horror stories of those online). 

Any other folks have solutions they can share?


----------



## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

See response here by Simon. On the last Trackday back in October he did say his car felt good.

The factory option is the alternative as it would appear that there are still few options on the market at present.

Mine felt like it was slipping some time back however I have had no further issues for a good 20k miles now – am at 58.4k miles at present.

The feeling I got when I thought the clutch was slipping was simply no drive when applying power though revs just built up.

Ohh, and I had a horrid burning smell which lasted a couple of days - as I say, that was a good 20k miles and all been well since.

The thing is to check requires a fair amount of dismantling the car so the best option was to continue driving until failure then we will replace with factory (OE) parts again.


----------



## MSS Automotive (Mar 20, 2013)

Marty said:


> How obvious was your clutch slip when cold? Any videos?
> 
> I've done some research on the clutch options, and there isn't a clear best option. Some options are:
> 
> ...


Thorough and supported with great info...:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

You should have been an engineer...


----------



## Optimus812 (May 5, 2012)

Marty said:


> How obvious was your clutch slip when cold? Any videos?
> 
> I've done some research on the clutch options, and there isn't a clear best option. Some options are:
> 
> ...


Thanks Marty, that's some great info you compiled. So I started noticing the slipping this week, the car now has 15k miles and when I go out and floor it at 3k rpms on the highway third gear, the revs will jump to 5k or so and then go back to 3k within a second. Once I did two runs like this it wouldn't do this anymore. It doesn't seem to do this in the lower gears... and yes, I would spell burnt clutch afterwards. Maybe I'll try and get a video of it with my phone.. but honestly I don't like doing this do to the fact it's killing the clutch faster with each slip!

Having high HP cars in past, it's all about trade off's with these clutches. I'll look into your suggestions and hopefully others can reply with their experiences.


Dave


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Optimus812 said:


> Having high HP cars in past, it's all about trade off's with these clutches.


Exactly... I'm very hesitant to put something in that hasn't been widely tested and confirmed to last. This is one of the challenges with modding a relatively low volume car like the TT-RS...

Personally, my ideal would be to keep the stock dual-mass flywheel, an organic disc (for street smoothness), and just swap in a version of the OEM auto-adjusting pressure plate that has, say 30-50% more clamping pressure (and just live with some increased pedal effort).

Why nobody make such a solution, I don't know... maybe we can contact LUK and go all-in to have them make a higher clamping load version of their stock pressure plate? 

You can see the auto-adjusting ring mechanism on the stock pressure plate in these photos:




























Other side of stock clutch disc:










HEY, does that DXD / SouthBend disc center section below look familiar?


----------



## Optimus812 (May 5, 2012)

That's pretty slick with the stock adjusting pressure plate, never seen anything like that before, go figure!  I wonder if that's another trade off and will cause reduced clamping force when the disk wears. I wonder if a standard style PP would clamp better...but what happens when the disk wears and there is no adjusting screw on the pedal to adjust for it manually (since its designed to be auto adjusting on the pressure plate). Yes, I see what you mean by keeping the stock style clutch. Ideally, I'd think keeping the stock organic disk and dual mass flywheel but go with a heavy duty pressure plate. This is not an easy decision and we know the labor involved to try experimenting can be costly.


----------



## Optimus812 (May 5, 2012)

Marty said:


> Personally, my ideal would be to keep the stock dual-mass flywheel, an organic disc (for street smoothness), and just swap in a version of the OEM auto-adjusting pressure plate that has, say 30-50% more clamping pressure (and just live with some increased pedal effort).
> 
> Why nobody make such a solution, I don't know... maybe we can contact LUK and go all-in to have them make a higher clamping load version of their stock pressure plate?


That's funny, just realized you said the same thing I did!.. Yes, maybe one of us should try contacting LUK and have them mod the stock PP and make it stiffer and heavy duty.


----------



## TRZ06 (Jan 20, 2013)

How much of a expense is it to replace the stock clutch?

Parts and labor


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

1) I managed to completely slip my clutch playing around with the Launch Control feature in my UM Stage 2 tune. The car wouldn't move under its own power until it cooled down. Smelled like burnt clutch for weeks afterwards. It drives okay now, but I don't trust it for full power/attack/track mode type driving.

2) I have a 215mm twin plate, organic clutch and steel flywheel kit from Helix Motorsports UK sitting in my garage, ready to go in the car. Helix was great to work with via email. They answered all of my questions and provided information so that I could decide which clutch setup would be best for my usage. The 215mm twin plate/disc clutch and flywheel kit from Helix weighs about 13.5Kg. If I want to go more to a more aggressive clutch setup, Helix can provide the paddle type clutch discs to install, using the same clutch cover assembly as the organic disc kit. The proof will be once I have the Helix twin plate/disc clutch installed, but so far I would highly recommend Helix Motorsports UK.

3) At independent VW/Audi shops, I have gotten quotes ranging from $1000-$1200 to R&R the clutch (price is without any parts). I am either going to do the clutch install myself or break down and take it to a shop for the work around the first of the year.

4) Sachs does offer a HD, uprated pressure plate for the stock DMF. However, if you read the specs, the Sachs units are not rated for the torque of a Stage 2 or 3 TT-RS. Yes, they may "work", but you are going to be pushing the clutch past its design limits.


One additional point regarding the options from Helix... The original "race" version was 200mm. The new, more street friendly version is 215mm, not 225mm. This is per an email sent directly to me by one of the Engineers who works for Helix.


----------



## trichards69 (Feb 8, 2012)

*Slipping clutch*

I have also experienced the soft clutch syndrome after a track day up at willow springs while driving home on the highway. I got home and went through all the options like you are now. However, I have yet to experience the slippage again. I spoke with the folks at Loba motor sports and they basically told me that there really isn't a clutch option that is mellow for the street at this point. The engagement on the sachs unit and anything that clutchmasters has to hold the torque will be annoying if you are dealing with any hills or traffic on the daily commute. I am in san diego and often experience the joys of bumper to bumper traffic on the i-5, so there is no way I could possible do it. If it happens again, I'll probably just replace the clutch with a stock unit.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

hightechrdn said:


> One additional point regarding the options from Helix... The original "race" version was 200mm. The new, more street friendly version is 215mm, not 225mm. This is per an email sent directly to me by one of the Engineers who works for Helix.


Interesting. Accordingly to my conversations with the Helix engineers, their current 215 mm version was designed to be "used for racing", even though they have an organic version available that holds less torque than the puck type (700 N*m vs. 870 N*m). They also specifically said they were working on a 228mm version for pure road cars (the street version) that will take 6 months+, and would have a sprung center (vs. the solid center of the race 215mm version).

I'm pretty sure that what you have is the existing 215mm solid center race version, but with the organic friction surface.


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Marty said:


> Interesting. Accordingly to my conversations with the Helix engineers, their current 215 mm version was designed to be "used for racing", even though they have an organic version available that holds less torque than the puck type (700 N*m vs. 870 N*m). They also specifically said they were working on a 228mm version for pure road cars (the street version) that will take 6 months+, and would have a sprung center (vs. the solid center of the race 215mm version).
> 
> I'm pretty sure that what you have is the existing 215mm solid center race version, but with the organic friction surface.


"more street friendly" is the operative phrase... Helix may be working on a real "street" clutch, but the 215mm version which I have was designed to be easier to modulate than the original 200mm setup due to more inertia (I assume).

I will see how it works out in the next couple of months, one way or the other


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

hightechrdn said:


> "more street friendly" is the operative phrase... Helix may be working on a real "street" clutch, but the 215mm version which I have was designed to be easier to modulate than the original 200mm setup due to more inertia (I assume).
> 
> I will see how it works out in the next couple of months, one way or the other


When do you think you'll install the Helix clutch? Would love to hear how well it works and feels.


----------



## Optimus812 (May 5, 2012)

hightechrdn said:


> "more street friendly" is the operative phrase... Helix may be working on a real "street" clutch, but the 215mm version which I have was designed to be easier to modulate than the original 200mm setup due to more inertia (I assume).
> 
> I will see how it works out in the next couple of months, one way or the other


I also would love to hear your experiences.. I don't think my clutch can wait 6+ months lol. It slipped again on the highway in 4th twice and then started grabbing fine after that. Is there pictures of it online, couldn't find it on Helix's website.


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

I'd really like to hear more about the twin full face plate Helix clutch. Is it sprung?


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

CarbonRS said:


> I'd really like to hear more about the twin full face plate Helix clutch. Is it sprung?


The current 215mm Helix offering is NOT sprung. Their streetable version that is 6+ months out will supposedly make *one* of the two clutch discs sprung.

Here are some pics of the Helix 215mm option, both the 6-puck and the organic faced discs:


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Here are couple of additional pictures of the actual Helix 215mm twin disc organic faced clutch kit which I have for my TT-RS. The plan is to have it installed by early Jan. I will post up results.


----------



## HeadKnocker (Sep 9, 2013)

*Effect of temp on torque for APR Stage 1 and 2*

Colder temperatures raises the torque considerably and I assume that is pushing some cars over the 475 lb ft clutch limit. Has anyone measured the torque increase with temperature, such as winter driving on APR stage 1 & 2? Does the APR software limit the torque increase as temperatures drop to winter levels? Assuming very little knock at winter temps, what is the limiting factor for generating and transmitting torque - software, fuel or fuel cut, clutch capacity? Seems like more engine control might be needed to reduce clutch slippage in cars that get driven in the winter.


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

Thanks for the pictures and information guys! The Helix website doesn't reveal very much. I look forward to hearing your experiences with it, especially if there is any extra transmission wear with the (assumed) extra mass and unsprung plates. I don't know first hand, but isn't there more potential to damage a gear?


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

CarbonRS said:


> Thanks for the pictures and information guys! The Helix website doesn't reveal very much. I look forward to hearing your experiences with it, especially if there is any extra transmission wear with the (assumed) extra mass and unsprung plates. I don't know first hand, but isn't there more potential to damage a gear?


The Helix kits are in the 12.5Kg to 13.5Kg range and much lighted than the OEM flywheel/clutch combo. Also, the Helix kits have a much lower moment of inertia (MOI) than OEM. The overall effect is to allow much faster shifting than the OEM flywheel/clutch combo. Watch the videos of JohnnyC shifting his 6spd Stage 3 TT-RS at very close to DSG speeds! 

The disadvantages of not having sprung clutch plates are going to be the potential for transmission gear clattering or roll over noise AND more shock to the driveline when engaging the clutch. A sprung clutch disc (or dual mass flywheel) absorbs some of the power spikes which one gets in the power delivery of an engine. These power spikes are worse with less cylinders and generally lessen with more (depends also on the offset angle of each crank throw for piston/con rod assemblies).

I will definitely post up results regarding any noise, vibrations, etc, along with overall impressions once installed.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

HeadKnocker said:


> Colder temperatures raises the torque considerably and I assume that is pushing some cars over the 475 lb ft clutch limit. Has anyone measured the torque increase with temperature, such as winter driving on APR stage 1 & 2? Does the APR software limit the torque increase as temperatures drop to winter levels? Assuming very little knock at winter temps, what is the limiting factor for generating and transmitting torque - software, fuel or fuel cut, clutch capacity? Seems like more engine control might be needed to reduce clutch slippage in cars that get driven in the winter.


Where did you hear the 475 ft*lbf stock clutch limit? I haven't been able to find any concrete info on this.


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

Ah, thanks for the explanation. So if it really is just NVH and a tad more shock being transmitted, would there be any reason to choose the sprung dual mass they are working on? My only concern was modulating the clutch in some traffic and reliability with repeated hard launches/track use. I think the one you got sounds like a good compromise, unless the shock to the driveline is really a big deal.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

hightechrdn said:


> The Helix kits are in the 12.5Kg to 13.5Kg range and much lighted than the OEM flywheel/clutch combo. Also, the Helix kits have a much lower moment of inertia (MOI) than OEM. The overall effect is to allow much faster shifting than the OEM flywheel/clutch combo. Watch the videos of JohnnyC shifting his 6spd Stage 3 TT-RS at very close to DSG speeds!
> 
> The disadvantages of not having sprung clutch plates are going to be the potential for transmission gear clattering or roll over noise AND more shock to the driveline when engaging the clutch. A sprung clutch disc (or dual mass flywheel) absorbs some of the power spikes which one gets in the power delivery of an engine. These power spikes are worse with less cylinders and generally lessen with more (depends also on the offset angle of each crank throw for piston/con rod assemblies).
> 
> I will definitely post up results regarding any noise, vibrations, etc, along with overall impressions once installed.


The issue to watch out for is the moment of inertia of the transmission-side disc assembly. Increasing the disc inertia over stock works the synchros harder, making shifts more difficult and potentially causing early synchro failure.

The Helix kit looks like the sum of both discs and the beefy spline hardware must haveh a higher inertia, but it's not clear how much so or if it's a concern.


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Marty said:


> The issue to watch out for is the moment of inertia of the transmission-side disc assembly. Increasing the disc inertia over stock works the synchros harder, making shifts more difficult and potentially causing early synchro failure.
> 
> The Helix kit looks like the sum of both discs and the beefy spline hardware must haveh a higher inertia, but it's not clear how much so or if it's a concern.


I will have to weigh the clutch components, OEM and Helix for comparison. However, the heavier splined part of the clutch discs are close to the input shaft with the Helix clutch, so MOI isn't as simple as just weighing the parts. 

At the end of the day, only time and usage will tell if the unsprung clutch discs impact transmission longevity. Assuming that I keep the car long enough, my plan is to have all the transmission internal hard parts treated (Super Finished or similar) and then assemble with all new wear items. 

I am not overly concerned with the unsprung clutch discs though. If I wanted maximum reliability, I would leave the car stock  

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


----------



## HeadKnocker (Sep 9, 2013)

*475 lb ft clutch limit*

Several threads from APR stated that they fairly consistently hit a 475 lb ft limit before the OEM clutch slipped. In some cases the clutch held more than 475 lb ft initially, but eventually slipped consistently at 475 lb ft of torque. It's important to note that the 475 lb ft limit they found was Wheel Torque, and not engine torque, which would be at least 10 - 15% higher at the flywheel.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

HeadKnocker said:


> Several threads from APR stated that they fairly consistently hit a 475 lb ft limit before the OEM clutch slipped. In some cases the clutch held more than 475 lb ft initially, but eventually slipped consistently at 475 lb ft of torque. It's important to note that the 475 lb ft limit they found was Wheel Torque, and not engine torque, which would be at least 10 - 15% higher at the flywheel.


Hmm so then there is a good chance that the Stage 3 on 91 octane will hold with the stock clutch (455 ft*lbf at the wheels). 93 octane hits 495 ft*lbf.


----------



## trichards69 (Feb 8, 2012)

*butter cluch....*



Marty said:


> Hmm so then there is a good chance that the Stage 3 on 91 octane will hold with the stock clutch (455 ft*lbf at the wheels). 93 octane hits 495 ft*lbf.



Sounds like it's just luck of the draw on who gets a slippery clutch. There are many posts on the UK boards about stock clutches slipping on cars without tunes or aggressive driving.


----------



## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

trichards69 said:


> Sounds like it's just luck of the draw on who gets a slippery clutch. There are many posts on the UK boards about stock clutches slipping on cars without tunes or aggressive driving.


Pretty much, that or driving style, and how much time spent slipping it.
Knock on wood, I'm approaching 21K miles, most of which at stage2. Sometimes 15+ launches a day on weekend race days.
Cut multiple 1.6x 60' at the 1/4 mile and still going strong.

INB4 is starts slipping next week.


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

joneze93tsi said:


> Pretty much, that or driving style, and how much time spent slipping it.
> Knock on wood, I'm approaching 21K miles, most of which at stage2. Sometimes 15+ launches a day on weekend race days.
> Cut multiple 1.6x 60' at the 1/4 mile and still going strong.
> 
> INB4 is starts slipping next week.


Though it did return to "normal" operation after cooling down, my clutch slipped to the point of not being able to move the car in first gear on my second try using Launch Control (~5000rpm with 10PSI boost built up). However, it must have also slipped some on the first launch, building up heat. Even days later, the clutch would slip using No Lift Shift. I can still drive it on the street, including trips to over 5k rpm, but I am being cautious with it until I have a chance to install the new clutch from Helix.

When you launch at the track, are you side stepping the clutch? Or are you letting the clutch out as quickly as possible using your leg? 

Regarding syncros in the transmission... Per Helix and reports which I have found on the Internet from Helix customers in Europe, the Helix twin disc clutch allows much faster shifting than the OEM clutch/DMF combination. To me, that implies that the syncros are not being worked harder, as that would slow down shifting time, not increase it.

It seems to be a matter of luck whether the OEM clutch will hold up and last or not.


----------



## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

I dont think its a matter of luck, more so to do with a lazy driving style or poor clutch control under launching from what ive seen/read.

3 of the UK's hardest road driven TTRS never had OEM clutch issues, even whilsts snapping propshafts, breaking gearboxes,breaking driveshafts, engine mounts and rear diffs, all whilst being used on the OEM clutch.

All 3 cars where used as developement vehicles at some stage, had numerous drag strip visits, did v-max events, auto cross, and two of the cars participated in weekly nightime london races.

And all 3 cars had something in common, when at wide open throttle, none of the drivers would do so at low rpms, 4500rpm upwards only, making use of the gears.

The OEM clutch even held up pretty decently to early development APR stage 3 abuse, and did well in a australian GTR beating TTRS rally car.

My helix twin plate paddle clutch has been fitted, perhaps i'll give some feedback this weekend if road conditions allow


----------



## Optimus812 (May 5, 2012)

How much clutch chatter do you hear on idle? Without the DMF I assume you would hear some clutch chatter.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk


----------



## J9277655 (Mar 1, 2011)

Hey Guys,

I'm in the same boat as Optimus, Stage II, 21k miles, with slippage in the higher gears. I use the car as a daily driver in San Francisco (hills and traffic) but also do a lot of autox, track days, and pretty aggressively on the twisty roads near here.

I've been working with the guys at 034 Motorsport to find a solution. I was planning on the SACHS kit offered through APR but having read this thread I'm second guessing that decision. 

Here's what the guys at 034 have to say:


"A stage 2 car shouldn't be slipping unless its an avid track car then maaaaybe."

Having said that we found a southbend pressure plate with greater clamping force and he sad that with an oem clutch disc would be good. I have to speak with Southbend still but i think this is the best bet.

Then i brought up the APR sachs set up and he said they work great and the only reason they are rated lower is because its just that an arbitrary number...but that the springs on the sachs are stronger than that of OEM so that too is another viable option.

Let me know what you think...I will still contact Southbend tomorrow when i get in and find some more liturature on the APR one."



What do you guys think?


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

J9277655 said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> I'm in the same boat as Optimus, Stage II, 21k miles, with slippage in the higher gears. I use the car as a daily driver in San Francisco (hills and traffic) but also do a lot of autox, track days, and pretty aggressively on the twisty roads near here.
> 
> ...


I've gone through this entire thought sequence, and came to the conclusion at the Sachs Performance units are the best bet currently for a daily driver. For a Stage 2, the Sachs Performance organic clutch kit is the way to go (IMO). Even for a 91 or 93 octane Stage 3 car I'm convinced that this clutch will be fine for non-race applications.

I hear the 4-puck Sachs clutch isn't that bad, but I don't want any engagement smoothness compromise. So I'm moving forward with the Sachs organic setup (should be installed within 3-4 weeks) and will report back.


----------



## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

Some APR stage 1 & 2 cars have been producing more than 530 lb/ft peak torque ,and holding 500 lb/ft past 3500 rpm.
With those levels of torque,even the Sachs organic might struggle after a while ?


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

jaybyme said:


> Some APR stage 1 & 2 cars have been producing more than 530 lb/ft peak torque ,and holding 500 lb/ft past 3500 rpm.
> With those levels of torque,even the Sachs organic might struggle after a while ?


Could be... though nobody seems to know for sure what the actual torque limits are for the stock clutch vs. Sachs organic vs. Sachs 4-puck vs. others.

I'm very surprised that your DSG clutches are holding!


----------



## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

I'm not sure what the manual clutch is rated at,but the DSG was designed up to 600 NM ,so it's real limits but with more wear will be much higher.
Plus I think there's a lot of trick software at work with the DSG,that can limit engine torque.
I would love to know what my car is pushing out at the moment,especially now the weather is getting colder.
Clutch seems fine though.


----------



## Timster (May 23, 2012)

definitely interested in clutch solutions. I have an APR stage I (latest upgrade) and my clutch is slipping a little at wot in this cold NE weather.


----------



## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

clutches are only as good as the drivers

i have a tdi golf stock it was 155ftlb now its over 330torqs, 100k on the clutch lots of autox and its still fine

ttrs no problems yet either apr stg1

if you need to rev to 2k while starting from a stop, dont rev match when downshifting, slip it while upshifting, wot at 2k, then all that is bad lol can you say glazed


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

tdi-bart said:


> clutches are only as good as the drivers
> 
> i have a tdi golf stock it was 155ftlb now its over 330torqs, 100k on the clutch lots of autox and its still fine
> 
> ...



There is more to it than just drivers... The TTRS clutches seems to either work exceptionally well or start slipping with little correlation to modifications. Reports of stock cars with slipping clutches aren't unheard of, yet others continue to work with stage 2 or even stage 3 type power enhancements. 

It is a fact that the OEM clutch isn't rated for modified torque levels. Though the Sachs options do provide improvements in torque capacity, neither is rated for stage 2 or 3 levels, especially with the newer tunes from APR, UM, etc which provide a much higher torque hit lower in the rpm range than the first generation tunes. Also, paddle type clutches aren't going to last very long when driven on the street in stop and go traffic due to fast wear rates when slipping the metallic friction material. 



Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


----------



## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

My clutch has been slipping since UM stage 2. Had to dial down the boost and still slip using NLS from 3rd into 4th. RPMs just spank the rev limit with no extra go! This is a great thread, very informative. Sub'd.


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

steelcurtain said:


> My clutch has been slipping since UM stage 2. Had to dial down the boost and still slip using NLS from 3rd into 4th. RPMs just spank the rev limit with no extra go! This is a great thread, very informative. Sub'd.


The clutch in my TT-RS with a UM Stage 2 tune also slips using NLS, especially after I seriously over heated the clutch trying out Launch Control a few months ago.

(In response to a number of different posts in this thread)

Update from my (email) discussion with Helix Motorsports:

Per Helix, their current clutch options for the TT-RS are geared to race or track usage, so the extra weight, cost, and complexity of an auto adjustment mechanism didn't make sense for their current designs for the TT-RS. They haven't had anyone ask about (until now) or report problems with not having that feature with the TT-RS clutches to date (their first TT-RS customers may not have been looking for a 100k mile clutch either). As reported previously, they are developing a larger diameter clutch geared towards street usage (it wasn't clear whether it will or will not auto adjust) for release next year.

The contact at Helix is going to reply back with more detailed information on the impact of not having an auto adjustment mechanism in their race/track clutches when the car sees more street usage. With the hydraulic clutch system in the TT-RS, he thought that there wouldn't be any problems, but is going to research the question further.

FYI... Clutch torque holding capacity can be calculated fairly easily if one knows the clamping force and the coefficient of friction for the clutch facing. 

Thanks

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## joneze93tsi (Aug 8, 2008)

hightechrdn said:


> The clutch in my TT-RS with a UM Stage 2 tune also slips using NLS, especially after I seriously over heated the clutch trying out Launch Control a few months ago.
> 
> (In response to a number of different posts in this thread)
> 
> ...



You aren't going to get a serious after-market SAC mechanism clutch.
The strongest OEM SAC is probably either the TT-RS or RS4 OEM PP.

That being aid, I daily drove a South Bend Stage4 SS/OFE for 100k miles.
Without SAC the adjustment point is fixed and moves as the clutch wears over time, just like it used to years ago.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

hightechrdn said:


> The clutch in my TT-RS with a UM Stage 2 tune also slips using NLS, especially after I seriously over heated the clutch trying out Launch Control a few months ago.
> 
> (In response to a number of different posts in this thread)
> 
> ...


The force on the clutch disc exerted by the pressure plate (F = k*x) is set by two things:

1) the pressure plate spring rate (k), and
2) the distance the pressure plate spring fingers are deflected (x)

The pressure plate spring deflection is set by a fixed manufacturing offset, plus the clutch disc thickness. So as the clutch wears, the spring deflection reduces, and the force exerted on the clutch disc reduces (so the max clutch holding torque drops). Eventually this can result in clutch slippage.

The self-adjusting mechanisms have a move-able spring seat that auto-adjusts to take up the slack as the clutch wears, so that the spring deflection stays consistent over the disc's lifetime.

In short, having a fixed non-adjusting pressure plate just means that the clutch holding ability will decrease over it's lifetime... how much so depends on the exact geometry of the pressure plate and springs. If you're relying on absolute max holding capability, then this means a potentially much reduced lifetime...

On a related note, my Sachs organic clutch kit just arrived from Germany (pic below). It'll be going in next week (along with an APR Stage 3 kit) so I'll report back on the feel and holding ability soon.


----------



## Optimus812 (May 5, 2012)

Marty, I assume you will be mating this clutch to the factory DMF? Very cool to hear you are going stage III, yes let us know how it goes. You having a local shop do the install?

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk 4


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Optimus812 said:


> Marty, I assume you will be mating this clutch to the factory DMF? Very cool to hear you are going stage III, yes let us know how it goes. You having a local shop do the install?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk 4


Yeah the Sachs clutch is designed to mate to the stock DMF. I'm debating whether or not I need a new DMF (car has 27k miles), since the flywheel is $1.1k new! Plan currently is to leave the used stock one in there depending on how the wear looks.

I'm having a local shop do the install. I wanted to install it myself, but just didn't feel comfortable pulling the trans out of the car in the garage for the clutch install portion.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Poverty said:


> My helix twin plate paddle clutch has been fitted, perhaps i'll give some feedback this weekend if road conditions allow


After having your Helix twin plate for a while now, how do you like it? How does the engagement compare to stock? Any additional driveline noise? Please post up a review!


----------



## trichards69 (Feb 8, 2012)

*Thanks for all the info Marty!*

I'm also going stage 3 (my Loba kit showed up today) and I am aggressively looking for a clutch option. Loba is also developing a clutch option that is "street-able" however they are months out of production.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

trichards69 said:


> I'm also going stage 3 (my Loba kit showed up today) and I am aggressively looking for a clutch option. Loba is also developing a clutch option that is "street-able" however they are months out of production.


Cool! What software would you run with the Loba setup?


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

trichards69 said:


> I'm also going stage 3 (my Loba kit showed up today) and I am aggressively looking for a clutch option. Loba is also developing a clutch option that is "street-able" however they are months out of production.


The Loba kit is off topic for this thread, but please do post up info on your new goodies (and results, when fitted)! The APR Stage 3 kit is great and all, but I can't be the only one who would like to see some alternatives in the market. The Loba reworked OEM TTRS turbos seem to make good power (something like 500WHP?) for a relatively modest investment, even with HPFP, intercooler, etc. Also very interested to hear who is going to tune your car once the Loba parts are installed. I have been meaning to give UM a call to ask them if they would be up for it, but hasn't been an immediate priority for me (new clutch install comes first!).


----------



## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

Marty said:


> After having your Helix twin plate for a while now, how do you like it? How does the engagement compare to stock? Any additional driveline noise? Please post up a review!



Ok a quick one.

It chatters as expected due to being a SMF. 

At first most people stall it, until you get used to it. Biting point is on or off as expected, but it's not as bad as some other aftermarket clutches I've driven.

Stop and go traffic isn't overly pleasurable with this clutch. It is heavy and not something you would want to keep depressed for any amount of time.

However it holds my 650hp and 560lbft perfectly. 

Saying all this, if I was on a stock or hybrid turbo, looking for a clutch, and the car was a daily driver, I wouldn't get this clutch.


----------



## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

hightechrdn said:


> The Loba kit is off topic for this thread, but please do post up info on your new goodies (and results, when fitted)! The APR Stage 3 kit is great and all, but I can't be the only one who would like to see some alternatives in the market. The Loba reworked OEM TTRS turbos seem to make good power (something like 500WHP?) for a relatively modest investment, even with HPFP, intercooler, etc. Also very interested to hear who is going to tune your car once the Loba parts are installed. I have been meaning to give UM a call to ask them if they would be up for it, but hasn't been an immediate priority for me (new clutch install comes first!).


Loba is 500hp flywheel with meth.


----------



## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

your'll have to post your dyno charts in one of your threads Poverty 
I thought you would have more torque,or was that at the wheel ?


----------



## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

jaybyme said:


> your'll have to post your dyno charts in one of your threads Poverty
> I thought you would have more torque,or was that at the wheel ?


I'm not sure on the torque actually, I think it's 560lbft but I could be wrong, I haven't actually dynoed the car yet but we basically know what power it's kicking out by comparing the data logs to that of jonnys car.


----------



## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

Ok I've just checked and you are right.

650+hp and 640+ lbft of torque.

No wonder I feel like the car could do a superbike damage


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Poverty said:


> Ok a quick one.
> 
> It chatters as expected due to being a SMF.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the review. This is consistent with another dual disc clutch I drove around a parking lot.

The Sachs 4-puck single disc holds the Stage 3 torque, so that sounds like the best option for those that want the full 100 octane capability. I'll be sticking with 91 octane, so still keeping my fingers crossed that the organic version will hold. Should know within a week.


----------



## trichards69 (Feb 8, 2012)

*loba kit*

hey Marty, giac is going to be doing the tune. As far as the clutch options, I'm anxious to hear a review of the new clutch set up you just received. You live in the SF area do you not? Just asking because the hills and traffic in the city are perfect testing grounds for a street-able replacement option for our cars.


----------



## jaybyme (Aug 29, 2012)

See mate,thought so,JC's had 540 lbft wtq.
Cheapest gain in power ever


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

jaybyme said:


> See mate,thought so,JC's had 540 lbft wtq.
> Cheapest gain in power ever


?


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

trichards69 said:


> hey Marty, giac is going to be doing the tune. As far as the clutch options, I'm anxious to hear a review of the new clutch set up you just received. You live in the SF area do you not? Just asking because the hills and traffic in the city are perfect testing grounds for a street-able replacement option for our cars.


I'll definitely give it a thorough testing in stop and go freeway traffic and hill starts. 

I'm very interested to see the pre and post dyno results with the GIAC tuning. There doesn't seem to be any straight answer on how much gain can be squeezed out of the Loba modified stock turbo setup. When will the tuning start?


----------



## trichards69 (Feb 8, 2012)

*Marty...*

probably will start end of Jan beginning of Feb. I'll keep everyone posted on how it goes. The clutch is a big factor in when we start


----------



## styling5030 (Feb 13, 2009)

hello,

info on carbon-carbon clucth made by exedy,
http://www.exedy-racing.com/racing/en/pro/carbon_d.html
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=37025002

or different design on this, with carbon friction plate and fw

http://www.3sx.com/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=261


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

styling5030 said:


> hello,
> 
> info on carbon-carbon clucth made by exedy,
> http://www.exedy-racing.com/racing/en/pro/carbon_d.html
> ...


Too bad those clutches aren't available for the Audi 2.5L TFSI and 6spd...

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Just got my car back with the Sachs organic unit installed. Review posted here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6880440-Review-TT-RS-Sachs-organic-clutch-kit


----------



## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

I got a South Bend stage 3 endurance going in on 2/10 along with the Wavetrac in the pic with ARP flywheel and propt shaft bolts. I'm installing a bunch of other bits in prep for track season at the same time. I'll post up a review once she is broken in. It's the same clutch in RSWorx's APR S3 TT-RS. They have put over 9,000 miles of abuse and still going strong. 

A big shout out to JR @ RSWorx and Issam @ INA Engineering for the excellent service and support.


----------



## J9277655 (Mar 1, 2011)

Hey Marty,

I wanted to check in with you now that you've put some miles and track time on the new clutch. I havent taken the plunge yet. If you needed to do it over again, would you get the Sachs Organic?

Are you still having any slipping like you had when it was first installed?


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

J9277655 said:


> Hey Marty,
> 
> I wanted to check in with you now that you've put some miles and track time on the new clutch. I havent taken the plunge yet. If you needed to do it over again, would you get the Sachs Organic?
> 
> Are you still having any slipping like you had when it was first installed?


The clutch held up just fine on the 93 octane tune on the track with no slippage. But I'm not doing any hard launches or no-lift shifts or anything aggressive like that.

Given that it slipped a little for the first 100 miles or so, and the peak torque the Stage 3 is putting out at the wheels seems like less than a Stage 2 car is putting out, I'm not totally convinced that the Sachs organic can hold more than the stock Luk clutch. The pedal feels former, which is the only reason I suspect it holds more.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

steelcurtain said:


> I got a South Bend stage 3 endurance going in on 2/10 along with the Wavetrac in the pic with ARP flywheel and propt shaft bolts. I'm installing a bunch of other bits in prep for track season at the same time. I'll post up a review once she is broken in. It's the same clutch in RSWorx's APR S3 TT-RS. They have put over 9,000 miles of abuse and still going strong.
> 
> A big shout out to JR @ RSWorx and Issam @ INA Engineering for the excellent service and support.


I'm very interested to hear how you like the clutch engagement on this setup. I wax worried about the chatter with the sintered iron pucks.


----------



## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

Marty said:


> I'm very interested to hear how you like the clutch engagement on this setup. I wax worried about the chatter with the sintered iron pucks.


I'll let you know how chatty it is here on Thursday when I pick up the car! Dropped her off with my friends at NGP Racing this morning for clutch and diff install plus 034 rear control arms, 034 RSB with end links, 034 rear trailing arm bushing upgrade, 034 stainless brake lines. Superpro front race centric bushings with front race centric control bracket bushings with camber offset. HPA puck, Tyrol subframe collars with new OEM bolts, 42dd shifter bushing, gold taping the tranny and custom alignment to get rid of the dead spot and take advantage of the adjustable rear control arms. Also found out that 034 is putting their air intake into production here soon. 

-patrick


----------



## Not4show (Jun 11, 2004)

steelcurtain said:


> I'll let you know how chatty it is here on Thursday when I pick up the car! Dropped her off with my friends at NGP Racing this morning for clutch and diff install plus 034 rear control arms, 034 RSB with end links, 034 rear trailing arm bushing upgrade, 034 stainless brake lines. Superpro front race centric bushings with front race centric control bracket bushings with camber offset. HPA puck, Tyrol subframe collars with new OEM bolts, 42dd shifter bushing, gold taping the tranny and custom alignment to get rid of the dead spot and take advantage of the adjustable rear control arms. Also found out that 034 is putting their air intake into production here soon.
> 
> -patrick


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: looks like Santa had a late Christmas delivery!!!!! Awesome


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

steelcurtain said:


> I'll let you know how chatty it is here on Thursday when I pick up the car! Dropped her off with my friends at NGP Racing this morning for clutch and diff install plus 034 rear control arms, 034 RSB with end links, 034 rear trailing arm bushing upgrade, 034 stainless brake lines. Superpro front race centric bushings with front race centric control bracket bushings with camber offset. HPA puck, Tyrol subframe collars with new OEM bolts, 42dd shifter bushing, gold taping the tranny and custom alignment to get rid of the dead spot and take advantage of the adjustable rear control arms. Also found out that 034 is putting their air intake into production here soon.
> 
> -patrick


That's a lot of change all at once! Could you share some more detail on the custom alignment to get rid of the dead spot? I assume you're referring to the center of the steering feeling dead and requiring a lot of steering input to actually start to move the car. It feels really floaty on the track on center and would love to get rid of that. Is it just a matter of going to zero toe in front?


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Marty said:


> The clutch held up just fine on the 93 octane tune on the track with no slippage. But I'm not doing any hard launches or no-lift shifts or anything aggressive like that.
> 
> Given that it slipped a little for the first 100 miles or so, and the peak torque the Stage 3 is putting out at the wheels seems like less than a Stage 2 car is putting out, I'm not totally convinced that the Sachs organic can hold more than the stock Luk clutch. The pedal feels former, which is the only reason I suspect it holds more.


I take everything back that I just said... 

After having slip-free performance for a month, including lots of track time even on the 93 octane tune, I just got the car back yesterday after leaving it with a shop for about a week to debug some rattles and program switching issues. And now every time I floor it, the clutch is slipping. The only way I can get it to NOT slip at WOT is to put it in "stock" mode which runs ~1 bar. 

No idea why it just started slipping horribly now after such solid performance at the track... but it's quite disappointing. 

If I were to do it again now, I'd probably put the Sachs 4-puck clutch in that APR recommends. Lame.


----------



## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

Not4show said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: looks like Santa had a late Christmas delivery!!!!! Awesome


Yes sir! Thanks man. Track season starts next month here on the east coast.


----------



## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

Marty said:


> I take everything back that I just said...
> 
> After having slip-free performance for a month, including lots of track time even on the 93 octane tune, I just got the car back yesterday after leaving it with a shop for about a week to debug some rattles and program switching issues. And now every time I floor it, the clutch is slipping. The only way I can get it to NOT slip at WOT is to put it in "stock" mode which runs ~1 bar.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to hear that Marty. I had a feeling that was gonna happen. I don't think that 4 puck will hold either under track usage. How are your brakes holding up?


----------



## Optimus812 (May 5, 2012)

Marty said:


> I take everything back that I just said...
> 
> After having slip-free performance for a month, including lots of track time even on the 93 octane tune, I just got the car back yesterday after leaving it with a shop for about a week to debug some rattles and program switching issues. And now every time I floor it, the clutch is slipping. The only way I can get it to NOT slip at WOT is to put it in "stock" mode which runs ~1 bar.
> 
> ...


What a major bummer!!... I was hoping your clutch would hold up since its probably the most streetable out there. I guess that leaves the APR 4 puck or South Bend as options? I've been stalling on replacing my clutch but the slipping on my Stage 2 is getting worse. I feel like I have a CVT tranny when flooring it in 4th gear lol.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

steelcurtain said:


> I'm sorry to hear that Marty. I had a feeling that was gonna happen. I don't think that 4 puck will hold either under track usage. How are your brakes holding up?


Honestly I don't think the track puts much stress on the clutch. I'm lifting during shifts so it's probably less wear than stop and go traffic for the same number of miles. But it is a good repeated test of it holding full torque without slipping.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Optimus812 said:


> What a major bummer!!... I was hoping your clutch would hold up since its probably the most streetable out there. I guess that leaves the APR 4 puck or South Bend as options? I've been stalling on replacing my clutch but the slipping on my Stage 2 is getting worse. I feel like I have a CVT tranny when flooring it in 4th gear lol.


Yeah, huge bummer. A CVT is a good way to describe the feeling.

SPEC also sells TT-RS fitments of solid flywheels plus higher friction discs (stages 1 through 5). But I really don't want to give up the DMF if possible. SouthBend and SPEC both require new flywheels so that they can use their standard modified Sachs pressure plate, rather than use the TT-RS specific one which has a different bolt pattern. If they started with the Sachs plate I have and modified it, then they could keep the DMF.

I'm going to ping Loba to see if there is any truth to the rumor that they are making a clutch kit for the car. There is also APR's dual carbon disc unit that is in development, but than will 3-4x the cost of the other options.


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Marty said:


> Yeah, huge bummer. A CVT is a good way to describe the feeling.
> 
> SPEC also sells TT-RS fitments of solid flywheels plus higher friction discs (stages 1 through 5). But I really don't want to give up the DMF if possible. SouthBend and SPEC both require new flywheels so that they can use their standard modified Sachs pressure plate, rather than use the TT-RS specific one which has a different bolt pattern. If they started with the Sachs plate I have and modified it, then they could keep the DMF.
> 
> I'm going to ping Loba to see if there is any truth to the rumor that they are making a clutch kit for the car. There is also APR's dual carbon disc unit that is in development, but than will 3-4x the cost of the other options.


Marty, have you given any thought to Helix Motorsports? Unfortunately, my install hasn't been done yet, so I can't give first hand feedback, but with dual organic disks, it is rated for Stage 2+ power levels. Stage 3 may require the cerametallic disks, but it will hold the power. 

The uber fast APR Stage 3 car in the UK is running one their clutches with the cerametallic disks. So there is proof that the will hold the power at least. 



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Marty said:


> No idea why it just started slipping horribly now after such solid performance at the track... but it's quite disappointing.


Sorry to hear that Marty but if my car was fine before I dropped it off and was having issues afterwards I'd be having a serious discussion with the shop.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

hightechrdn said:


> Marty, have you given any thought to Helix Motorsports? Unfortunately, my install hasn't been done yet, so I can't give first hand feedback, but with dual organic disks, it is rated for Stage 2+ power levels. Stage 3 may require the cerametallic disks, but it will hold the power.
> 
> The uber fast APR Stage 3 car in the UK is running one their clutches with the cerametallic disks. So there is proof that the will hold the power at least.
> 
> ...


I'm really concerned about going to a solid flywheel + solid disc for driveability reasons. The Helix kit also looks pretty massive, and I don't want to hang that much inertia off of the transmission (worried about synchro failures).


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

JohnLZ7W said:


> Sorry to hear that Marty but if my car was fine before I dropped it off and was having issues afterwards I'd be having a serious discussion with the shop.


I'm with you on that, but this shop has been pretty open and honest. They did the original kit and clutch install. They also said that when they did the first test drive after that install, that the clutch was slipping similar to this. I observed a slip or two myself when I picked it up, and it has been solid ever since (up until this weekend). So while it is very coincidental that it has slipped the worst I have ever observed immediately after picking it up, I don't think there's much to be gained by suggesting it may have been glazed by someone at the shop. 

I'd rather they just offer me a great deal on the labor to R&R another clutch given they just did the job a month ago. But we'll see what they say...


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

steelcurtain said:


> I'll let you know how chatty it is here on Thursday when I pick up the car! Dropped her off with my friends at NGP Racing this morning for clutch and diff install plus 034 rear control arms, 034 RSB with end links, 034 rear trailing arm bushing upgrade, 034 stainless brake lines. Superpro front race centric bushings with front race centric control bracket bushings with camber offset. HPA puck, Tyrol subframe collars with new OEM bolts, 42dd shifter bushing, gold taping the tranny and custom alignment to get rid of the dead spot and take advantage of the adjustable rear control arms. Also found out that 034 is putting their air intake into production here soon.
> 
> -patrick


Can you tell if your disc is sprung like the one shown on the DXD website for the TTRS? 

DXD:









RSWorx:









The RSWorx one is solid center (a modified stock disc), but it looks like DXD now has the splines and is making sprung versions. Unfortunately this puts more inertia on the transmission, which loads the synchros and slows down shifts compared to the stock clutch or Sachs options.

DXD recommends "limited street use" with that clutch, btw. :\


----------



## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

Marty said:


> Can you tell if your disc is sprung like the one shown on the DXD website for the TTRS?
> 
> DXD:
> 
> ...


It's a Porsche spline from what I've been told. Mine was assembled upon shipment so can't confirm now but I'll try to get a peak during install. I'm not about the street.


----------



## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

steelcurtain said:


> It's a Porsche spline from what I've been told. Mine was assembled upon shipment so can't confirm now but I'll try to get a peak during install. I'm not about the street.


Looking at that pic I posted zooming into the spline it is the shiny surface like the 2nd pic you posted so it is the 2nd disk.


----------



## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

Very interested to hear more about the wavetrac diff.

Bad news on the sach marty, a few people did try the sach organic one and did say it performed worse than the stock TTRS clutch.

My helix has about 1500 miles on it now and still going strong. However its not done any racing or launching yet as I was running the engine in, so at most its done pulls through 3rd and 4th gear then cool down.

The car is in the shop currently for final mapping, and some other upgrades, so when I get it back next week or so, I will be doing some hard driving


----------



## Not4show (Jun 11, 2004)

Marty

Any update on your clutch issue?

for those with bumped HP and stock clutches, at what HP were you starting to see clutch issues?


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Marty, which version does DXD recommend 'limited' street use? The sprung or non sprung hub disc? Helix uses non-sprung clutch discs. I was completely honest with the engineer from Helix that my car would see 90%+ street miles. His only concern was if I went with the cerametallic discs, which per this Engineer are required for Stage 3, but don't last long slipping in stop and go traffic. I have the option to swap out the organic discs that I have now for cerametallic, if I ever decide to go past hybrid turbo power levels. 

I will weigh the Helix twin disc clutch and post up better pictures tomorrow. The overall weight is much less than the stock clutch and flywheel assembly, so I don't have any concerns about weight causing transmission issues. 

Until I actually run mine on the street for some miles, I am not telling anyone to go buy one. Just offering up some information which you can use to compare other options. 

Issam has a reasonably priced clutch option, but it is likely similar to the DXD single disc. He was/is having a clutch company use stock inner sections of the disc, which are then attached to new friction outer sections. 

In the VAG scene, most of these single stage clutches are simply the HD cover from Sachs + new friction disc. The issue with the TT-RS seems to be that the inner splines haven't been available aftermarket. 

Without going to a very aggressive friction material, the single disc clutches are going to have issues holding stage 3 power levels if you start using launch control and the like. I believe that a twin disc clutch is the way to go, but I realize that going to a single mass flywheel isn't what many people have in mind. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Not4show said:


> Marty
> 
> Any update on your clutch issue?
> 
> for those with bumped HP and stock clutches, at what HP were you starting to see clutch issues?


Unfortunately the clutch is still slipping at WOT around 3500-4000 RPM at torque peak. I am stuck in a bind at the moment: I either have to swap in something quickly so that I can drive the car in Stage 3 mode at Laguna coming up on March 1st (already locked in to the track event), but risk running in a snag during the clutch replacement and miss the event. Alternatively, I just put it in stock mode and putt putt around with a laggy-er version of a stock power TT-RS, but the clutch should hold.



hightechrdn said:


> Marty, which version does DXD recommend 'limited' street use? The sprung or non sprung hub disc? Helix uses non-sprung clutch discs. I was completely honest with the engineer from Helix that my car would see 90%+ street miles. His only concern was if I went with the cerametallic discs, which per this Engineer are required for Stage 3, but don't last long slipping in stop and go traffic. I have the option to swap out the organic discs that I have now for cerametallic, if I ever decide to go past hybrid turbo power levels.
> 
> I will weigh the Helix twin disc clutch and post up better pictures tomorrow. The overall weight is much less than the stock clutch and flywheel assembly, so I don't have any concerns about weight causing transmission issues.
> 
> ...


DXD doesn't seem to differentiate between sprung and unsprung center discs on their website. I think they're mostly referring to the sintered metallic friction material as recommended for "limited street use". This is a similar sentiment as what Sachs suggests for their 4-puck clutch.

Could you post up some more pics of your organic Helix kit? I have to imagine that a twin-disc organic with no springs (neither on the flywheel nor the disc) is going to be a bit rough on the street. APR's kit looks like it will also be un-sprung, but will use replaceable carbon wear surfaces instead of organic against steel. 

When are you installing your Helix?


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

Marty said:


> DXD doesn't seem to differentiate between sprung and unsprung center discs on their website.


DXD/South Bend's website is in dire need of an update. Unfortunately it does not give a good product description but both Sprung & Unsprung clutch discs are available in the usual Stage 1 through Stage 5 Endurance format for the 0A6 gearbox.


----------



## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

Marty said:


> That's a lot of change all at once! Could you share some more detail on the custom alignment to get rid of the dead spot? I assume you're referring to the center of the steering feeling dead and requiring a lot of steering input to actually start to move the car. It feels really floaty on the track on center and would love to get rid of that. Is it just a matter of going to zero toe in front?


Here is what I got from another member that was suuceeful I getting rid of it. I am going to set mine to this and see how it does. I will post up my final settings once I have dialed in. 

"I have my car corner balanced and the camber on LF (drivers front is 1.8 negative, but when I sit in the car is goes to 1.5, The RF is set at 1.5 and my dead spot is not there. The rear is set at 1.2 on both. Toe is 0 in the rear."


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

INA said:


> DXD/South Bend's website is in dire need of an update. Unfortunately it does not give a good product description but both Sprung & Unsprung clutch discs are available in the usual Stage 1 through Stage 5 Endurance format for the 0A6 gearbox.


I wish they would pony up and use the 0A6 Sachs pressure plate that bolts to the OEM DMF and just offer a disc plus modified pressure plate combo. The current option of swapping in the SMF from another VAG car just so they can re-use existing Sachs pressure plates seems half-baked to me.


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Marty said:


> I wish they would pony up and use the 0A6 Sachs pressure plate that bolts to the OEM DMF and just offer a disc plus modified pressure plate combo. The current option of swapping in the SMF from another VAG car just so they can re-use existing Sachs pressure plates seems half-baked to me.


*Helix twin disc clutch and SMF for a TT-RS 2.5L TFSI (options: 215mm, organic clutch disc facing)*

I weighed the components with a digital bathroom scale:

Both clutch discs (organic) 4.5lbs
Single mass flywheel 11.5lbs
Pressure plate and both driven discs 12lbs
*Total = 26lbs
*
Helix initial quoted "12.5Kg" for the complete clutch + pressure plate setup, so my bathroom scale is in the ballpark.

The organic and cerametallic clutch discs can be interchanged, so if you decide to start with a "street" emphasis and later want to focus on track usage, you can swap in the cerametallic discs, keeping the pressure plate, driven discs, and flywheel the same.

Now for the pictures:


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Awesome thanks for the pics! How does the 4.5 pounds compare to the stock disc? That is all that matters for the shifting / sync to concern. I have a stock disc in the garage somewhere that I'll measure.


----------



## Optimus812 (May 5, 2012)

I'd be curious how the chatter is on idle and engagement. 

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

Marty said:


> I wish they would pony up and use the 0A6 Sachs pressure plate that bolts to the OEM DMF and just offer a disc plus modified pressure plate combo.


They do allready offer this.:thumbup:


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

INA said:


> They do allready offer this.:thumbup:


Is that a recent change? I spoke to them in November / December last year and that wasn't an option then.


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

Marty said:


> Is that a recent change? I spoke to them in November / December last year and that wasn't an option then.


A SB/Exedy clutch & Sachs PP for the OEM DMF? That was what was available first before the SMF options. If they told you it wasn't an off the shelf item that may have been correct at the time as we would always have to send over 0A6 cores.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

INA said:


> A SB/Exedy clutch & Sachs PP for the OEM DMF? That was what was available first before the SMF options. If they told you it wasn't an off the shelf item that may have been correct at the time as we would always have to send over 0A6 cores.


At the time they told me that a SMF plus me sending in the core of my stock disc was the only option because the Sachs plates they modified didn't bolt to the TTRS flywheel. They said they had no plans to switch to a Sachs plate that did just to support DMF customers.

Are you positive that they buy TTRS Sachs prett sure plates and make DMF kit versions? I have never seen a mention of this anywhere, not have I seen a single customer example of installing such a kit.


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

Marty said:


> At the time they told me that a SMF plus me sending in the core of my stock disc was the only option because the Sachs plates they modified didn't bolt to the TTRS flywheel. They said they had no plans to switch to a Sachs plate that did just to support DMF customers.
> Are you positive that they buy TTRS Sachs prett sure plates and make DMF kit versions? I have never seen a mention of this anywhere, not have I seen a single customer example of installing such a kit.


That is correct , at that time (August 2012) South Bend did not have a source for spline sections. From what I have seen (and I have had both a prototype motor and a production motor) the Dual Mass flywheel & Pressure Plate found in the 0A6 box are VERY SIMILAR to those found in an 02Q gearbox (2.0 TSI w/8 hole flywheel like the TTRS). The difference has been and always will be the actual Clutch disc spline portion. As of today (February 2014) South Bend through the South Bend dealer network has the ability to supply the customer the 5 stage offerings from SB in both SMF & DMF configurations. 
There is no longer a need for a core or a need for purchasing an OEM 07K Clutch Disc/PP from Audi , sending said Clutch Disc & PP to SB for modification and having the assembly shipped to the customer as that system has been eradicated.



Marty said:


> not have I seen a single customer example of installing such a kit.


Not everyone is on forums. We just did a sprung Endurance kit for a FWD Tiguan that races Dakar!

Almost every single Clutch company in the industry has a PP that starts out life as a Sachs unit. The clutch disc can be sourced through Exedy , Sachs , LUK or one of the other OEM manufacturers. The choice is up to the customer as to where he wants to spend his money. We have been a distributor for all the popular brands in the industry (aside from Helix as we waited an extremely long time for our one order from them) and we chose to stay with South Bend not because of the product but because of the after sale support. When it comes to issues in the future , Andy/Jon are hands down gentlemen and scholars.
HTH 
Issam


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

Great info here. So what is your recommendation then for daily driven stage 2 car that also sees occasional track/autox?


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

I spoke to DXD South Bend at length today and got the download on what they actually offer direct from the engineer that did the TTRS clutch development. Here are the options:

1) New disc only (with different friction material) and you retain the stock DMF and Luk pressure plate. This will hold about 30% more than stock with the more aggressive sintered puck material. This disc would be unsprung like stock, but the flywheel is spring of course.

2) Full DXD kit with lightened SMF (with VW GTI outer PP bolt circle), disc, and modifier Sachs GTI pressure plate with 2500 lb clamp force. This has the disadvantage of noise at idle with the SMF and reduced drive ability from a stop with the low flywheel inertia. You can buy this disc sprung or unsprung because the custom flywheel is pocketed to for the optional spring center.

3) DXD said they didn't know Sachs made a pressure plate that was compatible with the OEM DMF. They said it's likely they can do their normal mods to make it 2500 lbs clamping force Mac for Stage 3 plates, but that the typical aftermarket Sachs plates are already 2200 lbs so it wouldn't be as significant a difference. So option 3 is basically a DXD aggressive dibs with the aftermarket Sachs racing pressure plate, or a custom modified Sachs plate by DXD if you send it to them for a little extra holding capability.

Disc-wise, their best option that holds reasonable torque is the 7- puck sintered metallic that is shown in this thread. They make a metal disc face that is a little smoother to drive, but the disc inertia is so high that they said folks can run into transmission lockout issues shifting fast at high RPM.

They also said that drive ability wise, a 7 puck and 4 puck will be similar, with the 7 potentially having more life if it indeed has more surface area to wear against. BUT the 4 puck with metal removed between the pucks will have lower inertia and shift faster.

So in conclusion, the nest clutch currently available for Stage 2 / Stage 3 TTRS torque levels with the best drive ability appears to be the Sachs pressure plate plus 4-puck disc kit that APR recommends. It is under $900 including 2-day shipping direct from Sachs Germany. This kit will hold the torque, will shift the best, but will be a bit grabby like any sintered metallic disc. Wear-wise, it's not clear if it has less total puck area than the DXD version.

If you want a light weight flywheel at the same time and don't care about rattle at idle, then the DXD sintered metallic 7-puck kit is the best option.

Hope this helps folks! Looking forward to discussing APR's twin disc option whenever it becomes available as an even better drive ability, better life, and higher torque holding option (in exchange for cost).


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Does anyone have a any real world experience about how many miles one should expect out of a 4 puck metallic clutch disc on the street? Obviously, your mileage may vary, but even getting a % against an organic clutch would be great. 

A 50k mile clutch wouldn't be bad based on the relatively low miles I drive pet year, but a new clutch disc every 25k miles would get old quick. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

hightechrdn said:


> Does anyone have a any real world experience about how many miles one should expect out of a 4 puck metallic clutch disc on the street? Obviously, your mileage may vary, but even getting a % against an organic clutch would be great.
> 
> A 50k mile clutch wouldn't be bad based on the relatively low miles I drive pet year, but a new clutch disc every 25k miles would get old quick.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


APR told me their 4-puck lasted under 9,000 miles on their Stage 3 car.

DXD told me that a sintered metallic disc should last 10-20% longer than organic in the same usage.

So it doesn't all add up...

In a week I'll be able to hone you first hand experience on the 4-puck, and how it holds up over time.


----------



## trichards69 (Feb 8, 2012)

*Well....*

here's to hoping this holds my new set up: http://www.loba-motorsport.com/shop...e-2-performance-sintered-plate-and-cover?c=49

The car just went in for its tune.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

trichards69 said:


> here's to hoping this holds my new set up: http://www.loba-motorsport.com/shop...e-2-performance-sintered-plate-and-cover?c=49
> 
> The car just went in for its tune.


It should do fine. That is the clutch kit APR sells and says holds their Stage 3 torque on the 100 octane map. Cheapest option and fastest shipping is direct from Sachs, but only slightly less than Loba.


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

Haha, I was reading this thinking "Great! 4 puck it is!" Then find out it only lasted 9k :facepalm:

So are we back to helix then with the twin organic as the best option?


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

CarbonRS said:


> Haha, I was reading this thinking "Great! 4 puck it is!" Then find out it only lasted 9k :facepalm:
> 
> So are we back to helix then with the twin organic as the best option?


Maybe, but it's not sprung anywhere and uses a lightweight SMF. The Helix disc is also much heavier than the 4-puck. I measured the 4-puck at 2.2 pounds, while the Helix disc pair weighs in at 4.5 pounds. More weight = more inertia = harder on your synchros when trying to shift quickly. I still need to weigh stock...


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

Yea, completely unsprung scares me a bit. Not because of drive-ability, but because there is nothing to absorb shock. Maybe someone can comment, but this sounds like bad news for the transmission and engine if there isn't anything to take the shock out of the drive train. The weight of two discs may not be a huge issue if they are smaller and roughly total the same weight as stock. It will be interesting to see what the stock weight is. Wasn't Jonny Cocker using the twin disc helix and pulling off amazingly quick shifts?


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Yes, JohnnyC uses the Helix twin disc with cerametallic plates. It isn't just per weight, it is moment of inertia (MOI) which impacts engine responsiveness and shifting speed. 

There is no problem with shift speed and the Helix twin disc. JohnnyC shifts literally as fast as a DSG transmission. 

No way metallic will last longer than organic in stop and go. Track and drag racing is a completely different story of course, but the metallic discs wear quickly when slipping to take off smoothly, which is required especially with a light weight flywheel. 

9k just isn't long enough before a $1k bill to pull the transmission again. Personally, I would have no issues with 50k miles, between clutch maintenance, but near yearly isn't worth the trouble. 


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

hightechrdn said:


> Yes, JohnnyC uses the Helix twin disc with cerametallic plates. It isn't just per weight, it is moment of inertia (MOI) which impacts engine responsiveness and shifting speed.
> 
> There is no problem with shift speed and the Helix twin disc. JohnnyC shifts literally as fast as a DSG transmission.
> 
> ...


The shops in this area want essentially dealer prices: 14 hours times $135 an hour = $1,890 in labor alone!

I just wish Helix had designed the clutch to mate to the OEM DMF flywheel, but they obviously want to re-use as much as possible across applications.


----------



## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

Marty said:


> The shops in this area want essentially dealer prices: 14 hours times $135 an hour = $1,890 in labor alone!
> 
> I just wish Helix had designed the clutch to mate to the OEM DMF flywheel, but they obviously want to re-use as much as possible across applications.



Helix designed the clutch specifically for stage 3 use to jonnys spec. The flywheel is a hell of alot lighter than the stock DMF. My helix has seen 1500 miles so far with no issues


----------



## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

Regarding stop and go, Rsworx advised to use OEM trans fluid over 90 weight for street on the SB clutch. Use 90 solely for track. This was based on their testing in their shop car. 

On another note, my car will be resdy on Monday. I saw the stock clutch yesterday and it was toast at 18k.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Poverty said:


> My helix has seen 1500 miles so far with no issues


Good to hear! How is it for a daily driver street clutch? My impression from your previous posts is that it's a bit much for that.


----------



## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

Marty said:


> Good to hear! How is it for a daily driver street clutch? My impression from your previous posts is that it's a bit much for that.


Let's just say I now try to avoid stop and go traffic driving and will make use of the GF's Mini Cooper instead if I know my journey will encounter a lot of traffic.

It's the pulling off from a standstill and the fact I know it reduces clutch life that I choose not to drive it in the city.

Open roads ie motorway or nighttime driving the TT gets the nod everytime.


----------



## adamTTRS (Jan 28, 2013)

*Helix Clutch*

Does anyone have a contact at Helix? I have sent three inquiries through their website over the past two weeks and no response!

Trying to contact some directly?


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

adamTTRS said:


> Does anyone have a contact at Helix? I have sent three inquiries through their website over the past two weeks and no response!
> 
> Trying to contact some directly?


[email protected]


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

This arrived from Sachs and should be in by end of day Wednesday if all goes smoothly:


----------



## adamTTRS (Jan 28, 2013)

*Clutch Help*



Marty said:


> [email protected]


Thanks Marty,

APR Stage one is making some great power and the clutch can not handle it. 25K on the car with the last year doing track events, I guess it is time!

Right now my choices in preferential order are...

South Bend Stage 3
Helix ( If they respond )
Sachs

Adam


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

adamTTRS said:


> Thanks Marty,
> 
> APR Stage one is making some great power and the clutch can not handle it. 25K on the car with the last year doing track events, I guess it is time!
> 
> ...


Just curious: what made you rate the South Bend Stage 3 higher than the Sachs? I had to go through the same decision process. To me it looks like the Sachs kit is:
- cheaper (only needs disc + pressure plate kit for 1st replacement... $786 from Sachs directly, then may need a new stock flywheel next time which is pricier)
- better driveability (retains high inertia DMF attached to engine)
- less rattle / noise at idle (retains damped DMF)
- faster shifting / less syncro wear (lowest inertia of any of the clutch discs)

... in exchange for likely ~25-30% less clutch lifetime (hard to tell, but it looks like the total puck area is maybe 25% less with the Sachs than the South Bend).


----------



## adamTTRS (Jan 28, 2013)

*Clutch Help*



Marty said:


> Just curious: what made you rate the South Bend Stage 3 higher than the Sachs? I had to go through the same decision process. To me it looks like the Sachs kit is:
> - cheaper (only needs disc + pressure plate kit for 1st replacement... $786 from Sachs directly, then may need a new stock flywheel next time which is pricier)
> - better driveability (retains high inertia DMF attached to engine)
> - less rattle / noise at idle (retains damped DMF)
> ...


The issue is the Sachs has a softer material which allows for better grip but also quicker wear. The SB is a harder material with a heavy pressure plate. My wife drives my car when I take the baby out. She will like the lighter clutch pedal feel. 

I will consult my performance shop about the difference and see if the can provide an other input. RSWorx swears by the SB and so does my shop.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

adamTTRS said:


> The issue is the Sachs has a softer material which allows for better grip but also quicker wear. The SB is a harder material with a heavy pressure plate. My wife drives my car when I take the baby out. She will like the lighter clutch pedal feel.
> 
> I will consult my performance shop about the difference and see if the can provide an other input. RSWorx swears by the SB and so does my shop.


Interesting. Where'd you get the material hardness comparison info on the 4-puck Sachs vs. the 8-puck DXD? I'd love to read more about that. Visually, both sintered materials look very similar. 

DXD didn't seem to know much about the details of the Sachs 4-puck other than the 4-puck and 8-puck should have similar driving characteristics (basically, he said the puck count itself doesn't seem to have much of an effect on engagement). According to DXD, the pressure plate stiffness between the Sachs racing plate and their modified GTI plate are likely within ~10% of each other. 

I'd love to find someone in the bay area that has the DXD "Drag" clutch (this is the 8-puck one everybody is referencing here) to compare side by side with the Sachs engagement. Anybody out there?


----------



## adamTTRS (Jan 28, 2013)

*Clutch*



Marty said:


> Interesting. Where'd you get the material hardness comparison info on the 4-puck Sachs vs. the 8-puck DXD? I'd love to read more about that. Visually, both sintered materials look very similar.
> 
> DXD didn't seem to know much about the details of the Sachs 4-puck other than the 4-puck and 8-puck should have similar driving characteristics (basically, he said the puck count itself doesn't seem to have much of an effect on engagement). According to DXD, the pressure plate stiffness between the Sachs racing plate and their modified GTI plate are likely within ~10% of each other.
> 
> I'd love to find someone in the bay area that has the DXD "Drag" clutch (this is the 8-puck one everybody is referencing here) to compare side by side with the Sachs engagement. Anybody out there?


The SB is a Ceri-metallic disc, at least the one I am looking at, which is harder than Kevlar or the organic. True, on the 4 to 8 puck comparison, doubt one or the other is better anything. But my major question is below...

APR stage 1 is making 447 torque, with the stock disc and pressure plate several people have seen slipping. If you go with SACHS, you don't replace all parts. So the pressure plate stays relatively the same and the new grippy softer material holds more torque. But for how long will it last. I do not want to replace again in a year or two. I bet you are not happy with the organic disc life, or the 10 hours of labor to change again! The SB clutch I am getting has a 600+ torque rating, a new 2500lb pressure plate, an 20lb flywheel and a disc made of ceri-metallic material. It is about 20% firmer clutch feel than stock. 

My thought is this: I am currently at 410/447 hp/tq with APR stage 1! On cold days and early morning track sessions I am probably at 420/467 hp/tq. Next year I plan on getting stage 2 which will be 431/476 hp/tq. During those morning track sessions, I MAY be at 441/496 hp/tq. I am looking to do the clutch that will handle my current stage and the next stage. I also want to get a clutch that has a complete system and not just dropping in a new part with other used parts.

APR stage 1 power has shown me the weak part, the clutch, in my powertrain currently.

I am sure the SACHS will hold my power and the next stage as well, but for how long? RSWorx has a SB and they have no issues with their 10 sec TTRS. I have been recommended SB by several shops that have been in the business for a long time.

So Far I have this info:
SB Stage 3 / 600 torque limit / 2500 lb pressure plate / 20 lb flywheel / Ceri-Metallic 8 puck Disc / 500-700 mile break in
Clutch Masters / 525 torque limit / 2400 lb pressure plate / 18 lb flywheel / Ceramic 8 puck / 500 mile break in
Sachs WAITING
Helix WAITING

I hope my philosophy is understood, I think making choices based on have more and not needing is better than needing and not having!

Adam


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

The Sachs 4-puck kit replaces both the pressure plate and the clutch. You can choose to replace the stock flywheel with a new one if you want, but that depends on the wear.

Supposedly the Sachs pressure plate is 2200 lb clamp force, but confirmation from Sachs would be ideal. According to Sachs, the 4-puck kit holds 480 ft*lbf (650 N*m). This is lower than the South Bend drag kit which advertises 520 ft*lbf on their site. Where are you seeing 600 ft*lbf?


----------



## adamTTRS (Jan 28, 2013)

*Clutch help*



Marty said:


> The Sachs 4-puck kit replaces both the pressure plate and the clutch. You can choose to replace the stock flywheel with a new one if you want, but that depends on the wear.
> 
> Supposedly the Sachs pressure plate is 2200 lb clamp force, but confirmation from Sachs would be ideal. According to Sachs, the 4-puck kit holds 480 ft*lbf (650 N*m). This is lower than the South Bend drag kit which advertises 520 ft*lbf on their site. Where are you seeing 600 ft*lbf?



I am seeing 600 from a different disc, I am choosing the Graphite Impregnated Ceramic instead of the organic or the Kevlar. The website does not show the stage 3, the drag which is 520 is only stage 2! Go under the product info tab and you will see the full descriptions of different stages. 

I am going to call Sachs today and get the info same as above. Thank for the info on the 480 holding limit of the Sachs. This is interesting considering the APR stage 3 car was making above 550 torque. maybe that is the reason why they only got 9000 miles out if the clutch. I did confirm that both Clutchmasters and SB buy the Sachs pressure plate, and make it better according to them, for use in their clutches. Next year when I go Stage 2 with 476 torque, my clutch, Sachs maybe, will have 5000 miles on it with 2000 being track miles, will it hold? That is the question?

Marty,
Thanks for the input into the conversation, hopefully everyone can benefit from the question and answer we are providing!


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

adamTTRS said:


> I am seeing 600 from a different disc, I am choosing the Graphite Impregnated Ceramic instead of the organic or the Kevlar. The website does not show the stage 3, the drag which is 520 is only stage 2! Go under the product info tab and you will see the full descriptions of different stages.
> 
> I am going to call Sachs today and get the info same as above. Thank for the info on the 480 holding limit of the Sachs. This is interesting considering the APR stage 3 car was making above 550 torque. maybe that is the reason why they only got 9000 miles out if the clutch. I did confirm that both Clutchmasters and SB buy the Sachs pressure plate, and make it better according to them, for use in their clutches. Next year when I go Stage 2 with 476 torque, my clutch, Sachs maybe, will have 5000 miles on it with 2000 being track miles, will it hold? That is the question?
> 
> ...


Note that when SB or Clutchmasters buy a Sachs plate to modify, they're buying the OEM GTI unit at 1600 lbf clamping and modifying the spring. The Sachs racing plate is already higher clamping, but is more expensive.

The SB stage 2 disc on the website looks the same as all the Stage 3 install pics. Does the Stage 3 kit just include an even stiffer pressure plate?


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

Marty said:


> Note that when SB or Clutchmasters buy a Sachs plate to modify, they're buying the OEM GTI unit at 1600 lbf clamping and modifying the spring.


Same concept but they are buying OEM Tiguan PP that come from the factory with 0A6 boxes. As much as I love Sachs Racing , they are not exactly easy to get for us North American folk.


----------



## adamTTRS (Jan 28, 2013)

*clutch*



Marty said:


> Note that when SB or Clutchmasters buy a Sachs plate to modify, they're buying the OEM GTI unit at 1600 lbf clamping and modifying the spring. The Sachs racing plate is already higher clamping, but is more expensive.
> 
> The SB stage 2 disc on the website looks the same as all the Stage 3 install pics. Does the Stage 3 kit just include an even stiffer pressure plate?


Yes, I am told that the stage 2 PP has 2200 lbf and the Stage 3 PP has 2500 lbf.


----------



## adamTTRS (Jan 28, 2013)

*clutch*

Just got off the phone with Sachs USA and they advised me that they do not have a clutch system for the TTRS. I advised the rep to look at the Europe website and gave him the part # and then he found it. When asked for information on the clutch, he forwarded me to the dealers in the us that sell Sachs.

Not impressed, I have sent an email through the Euro contact site and am waiting to see what happens.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

adamTTRS said:


> Just got off the phone with Sachs USA and they advised me that they do not have a clutch system for the TTRS. I advised the rep to look at the Europe website and gave him the part # and then he found it. When asked for information on the clutch, he forwarded me to the dealers in the us that sell Sachs.
> 
> Not impressed, I have sent an email through the Euro contact site and am waiting to see what happens.


Just call Sachs Germany. That's what I did last time and they were helpful. They were also very responsive to email before, but the latest email I sent asking about the sintered metal material hasn't been answered for a week now.

If you want the best of both worlds, DXD/SB tolde they would modify a Sachs TTRS plate to take it all the way up to 2500 lbs, and supply one of their discs (if you want the 8-puck) that is then compatible with the OEM TTRS dual mass flywheel.

But if you're like me and you're convinced the Sachs 4-puck is similar to the 8-puck DXD disc and the Sachs racing plate will clamp well enough, then just buy the 4-puck Sachs kit.

So what it comes down to is:

1) Does the extra clamp load make all the difference? It could if you're close to the limit.

2) Does the SB 8-puck disc wear longer than the 4-puck Sachs? Not clear, but if they're the same material then probably so by a bit (~25% based on area in the pics).

It at least makes me feel a little better that the rest of the TT-RS folks get to benefit from my (or our) expensive learnings here. :laugh:


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

INA said:


> Same concept but they are buying OEM Tiguan PP that come from the factory with 0A6 boxes. As much as I love Sachs Racing , they are not exactly easy to get for us North American folk.


"But It Now" VAT-free using PayPal off of the Sachs Germany website with 36 EUR 2-day shipping to the west coast doesn't sound *that* hard! 

$436 for the TT-RS reinforced pressure plate direct from Sachs: http://www.sachsperformance.com/Sac.../Performance-Clutch-Cover-Reinforced::51.html


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Just got the car back tonight with the new Sachs 4-puck sintered metallic disc. I was bracing for the worst in terms of driveability, but I am surprised to say it is actually quite tame! And no slipping after a few quick full-throttle tests, but I'd like to break it in longer before I push it too hard. 

I am able to feather the clutch to pull away from a stop (it is not "on / off" only). As I pull away, there is a hint of shuddering from the clutch, but it feels like it is very damped from the dual-mass flywheel, so it's really not bad at all. 

All in all it feels pretty good for a "racing clutch"! For those that have highly modified TT-RS cars that need a clutch solution that holds, this solution seems pretty good (assuming it lasts). It doesn't seem to need excessive slipping to make it driveable, so I don't think it should wear particularly quickly.

For those that are on the fence about this Sachs 4-puck clutch, I'd so go for it. For those that are leaning towards the DXD / South Bend, it uses a similar material, so I'd assume it has similar engagement properties. But how much the heavy DMF is helping with comfort vs a lighter SMF with the DXD kit is not clear.

The bad news is the shop didn't fix my heat shield rattle issue...  I'll need to take it back yet again to get that worked on. I acknowledge that engine bay buzzes are hard to track down.


----------



## trichards69 (Feb 8, 2012)

*clutch*

Oh man, that's good to hear Marty. My car has everything installed now but is just waiting for a dyno day to custom tune. It's driving me nuts!!!


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

trichards69 said:


> Oh man, that's good to hear Marty. My car has everything installed now but is just waiting for a dyno day to custom tune. It's driving me nuts!!!


Have you driven it around at all with the new clutch?


----------



## trichards69 (Feb 8, 2012)

*clutch*

Not yet, I'm hoping to go for a drive today. Kind of want to keep the milage to a min until we get the final tune on there.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

trichards69 said:


> Not yet, I'm hoping to go for a drive today. Kind of want to keep the milage to a min until we get the final tune on there.


You should be able to drive it around no problem with the stock turbo tune. Just keep it off of heavy throttle if you want to play it safe.

Did you get a solid baseline dyno?  still super curious to hear your results!


----------



## adamTTRS (Jan 28, 2013)

*Clutch*



Marty said:


> Just got the car back tonight with the new Sachs 4-puck sintered metallic disc. I was bracing for the worst in terms of driveability, but I am surprised to say it is actually quite tame! And no slipping after a few quick full-throttle tests, but I'd like to break it in longer before I push it too hard.
> 
> I am able to feather the clutch to pull away from a stop (it is not "on / off" only). As I pull away, there is a hint of shuddering from the clutch, but it feels like it is very damped from the dual-mass flywheel, so it's really not bad at all.
> 
> ...


Glad to see the new clutch is working out for you. I did get a response from SACHS Europe but they did not answer my questions. I asked again but in a different way, ask the same question by another avenue and will see if they ask it this time.

I will be making a decision soon!


----------



## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

I got the SB installed. Chatter isn't bad at all and I came from a very quiet stage 3 DSG setup on my GTI. You can barely hear it in the cabin and I have friends that have much worse. The pedal travel is reduced by a good 60% and very firm to hold it down stopped at a light. I've got 150 miles on it and breaking it in with the LSD too. I'll report back once I beat the hell out of it. I'm very happy with it so far. Light blips of low boost in 2nd thru 4th and holds well. I do hear some vibrations getting injected into the cabin from the clutch. Can't say if I would notice or if they would even exist if I didn't install an HPA puck when I installed the clutch.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

steelcurtain said:


> I got the SB installed. Chatter isn't bad at all and I came from a very quiet stage 3 DSG setup on my GTI. You can barely hear it in the cabin and I have friends that have much worse. The pedal travel is reduced by a good 60% and very firm to hold it down stopped at a light. I've got 150 miles on it and breaking it in with the LSD too. I'll report back once I beat the hell out of it. I'm very happy with it so far. Light blips of low boost in 2nd thru 4th and holds well. I do hear some vibrations getting injected into the cabin from the clutch. Can't say if I would notice or if they would even exist if I didn't install an HPA puck when I installed the clutch.


Do you get some chatter pulling away from a stop?


----------



## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

Marty said:


> Do you get some chatter pulling away from a stop?


No chatter. First is definitely tricky. I'm still getting used to it. I think it's easier to drive in sport mode.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

steelcurtain said:


> No chatter. First is definitely tricky. I'm still getting used to it. I think it's easier to drive in sport mode.


Tricky how?


----------



## trichards69 (Feb 8, 2012)

*chatter*

so i just picked up my car with the new sachs stg 2 and loba stage 3 kit. I cant comment on the new turbo yet as the tune isnt on there. the new clutch however...this is going to take a bit of getting used to especially getting out of first on any kind of an incline. as others have stated, the point of engagement is so much less with the clutch pedal. i have to re wire myself not to put the clutch to the floor when shifting from a dead stop. im trying my ass off not to really slip the clutch too much in first or reverse but i dont see how its possible not to. i do get chatter both through the pedal and audibly outside the car. i know its normal but i guess i just need to learn how to dive again! lol
any tips on how to rewire my thought process on how to start out of first would be greatly appreciated. so far i am going with revs are my friend method, and driving in sport is actually easier


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

trichards69 said:


> so i just picked up my car with the new sachs stg 2 and loba stage 3 kit. I cant comment on the new turbo yet as the tune isnt on there. the new clutch however...this is going to take a bit of getting used to especially getting out of first on any kind of an incline. as others have stated, the point of engagement is so much less with the clutch pedal. i have to re wire myself not to put the clutch to the floor when shifting from a dead stop. im trying my ass off not to really slip the clutch too much in first or reverse but i dont see how its possible not to. i do get chatter both through the pedal and audibly outside the car. i know its normal but i guess i just need to learn how to dive again! lol
> any tips on how to rewire my thought process on how to start out of first would be greatly appreciated. so far i am going with revs are my friend method, and driving in sport is actually easier


I guess I got partially used to the new engagement point by starting with the Sachs organic first. 

I slip it a bit in 1st and reverse to get going. Your foot will get used to the new engagement point and it'll become second nature. The chatter should reduce as they wear in a bit better over the next thousand miles.

At this point I get just a little shuddering when I pull away, but it's not as bad as I was expecting at all.

Can you post a video?


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

I'd like to hear more about that Loba turbo if you don't mind doing up a review! I'm looking into it and trying to find a good source for the parts and the tune. I'd also be getting the AWE intercooler, it looks like you have everything I'm looking to do! Is it safe to drive without being tuned and did you send your turbo away to be rebuilt? Sorry for the hijack. I'm also interested in clutches because of this and appreciate the info so far!


----------



## trichards69 (Feb 8, 2012)

*hey there...*

Contact the guys at AWE Tuning, I worked with them on this build. They can fill you in on everything. GIAC is doing the tune so if you decide to go that direction, they will have the tune dialed with my car as I am local to them.


----------



## smack_ttrs (Mar 24, 2013)

trichards69 said:


> Contact the guys at AWE Tuning, I worked with them on this build. They can fill you in on everything. GIAC is doing the tune so if you decide to go that direction, they will have the tune dialed with my car as I am local to them.


you planning on doing 91 and 100 maps?


----------



## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

Marty said:


> Tricky how?


The pedal travel is reduced by like 60% so the clutch engages very quickly and the pedal is a lot stiffer. Just takes some getting used to that's all coming from a DSG trans. :laugh:


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

CarbonRS said:


> I'd like to hear more about that Loba turbo if you don't mind doing up a review! I'm looking into it and trying to find a good source for the parts and the tune. I'd also be getting the AWE intercooler, it looks like you have everything I'm looking to do! Is it safe to drive without being tuned and did you send your turbo away to be rebuilt? Sorry for the hijack. I'm also interested in clutches because of this and appreciate the info so far!


Personally I'd skip the AWE intercooler (doesn't seem worth it over the minimal difference compared to stock) and do the APR instead.


----------



## Not4show (Jun 11, 2004)

Marty said:


> Personally I'd skip the AWE intercooler (doesn't seem worth it over the minimal difference compared to stock) and do the APR instead.


Marty,

What part of the Bay Area are you in, I'd like to check out your setup.


----------



## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

Just let two friends drive the car with SB clutch. One is an HPDE instructor and the other has a 450whp stage 4 clutch and they absolutely loved the feel of it. Also got into some nice pulls to 4500rpm and smooth as butter! They were both giddie.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

steelcurtain said:


> Just let two friends drive the car with SB clutch. One is an HPDE instructor and the other has a 450whp stage 4 clutch and they absolutely loved the feel of it. Also got into some nice pulls to 4500rpm and smooth as butter! They were both giddie.


Nice! If there is no chatter / shudder at all, then I'm impressed. Because there is definitely done with the Sachs, but not too bad. Just odd because the SB material is similar, and they similarly recommend minimal street use.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

[SUB][/SUB]


Not4show said:


> Marty,
> 
> What part of the Bay Area are you in, I'd like to check out your setup.


I'm on the peninsula along 280.


----------



## adamTTRS (Jan 28, 2013)

*clutch*

thanks for the input from everyone on the clutches and the feel they get when driving.


----------



## Not4show (Jun 11, 2004)

Marty said:


> [SUB][/SUB]
> 
> I'm on the peninsula along 280.


Marty

Let me know if your gonna be around next weekend, I'll head your way.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

trichards69 said:


> so i just picked up my car with the new sachs stg 2 and loba stage 3 kit. I cant comment on the new turbo yet as the tune isnt on there. the new clutch however...this is going to take a bit of getting used to especially getting out of first on any kind of an incline. as others have stated, the point of engagement is so much less with the clutch pedal. i have to re wire myself not to put the clutch to the floor when shifting from a dead stop. im trying my ass off not to really slip the clutch too much in first or reverse but i dont see how its possible not to. i do get chatter both through the pedal and audibly outside the car. i know its normal but i guess i just need to learn how to dive again! lol
> any tips on how to rewire my thought process on how to start out of first would be greatly appreciated. so far i am going with revs are my friend method, and driving in sport is actually easier


Also, my engagement point with the original organic Sachs stage 1 seemed to get more gradual over the first (and only) 500-1000 miles or so. It started with engaging only at the very top of the pedal travel, and towards the end of its life when it started slipping it engaged a bit lower with more modulation opportunity.

When I swapped in the 4-puck disc (keeping the original Sachs pressure plate), the engagement pointed stayed a bit lower, but of course the 4-puck is a bit grabbier and takes some finesse to drive smoothly, but it's definitely do-able with care.

I ran the Stage 3 with 93 octane tune all weekend at Laguna Seca and and no instances of any sort of clutch slip. Then again, I did the same at Thunderhill with the organic but it started slipping shortly after... so knock on wood that this thing continues to hold!


----------



## trichards69 (Feb 8, 2012)

Marty said:


> Also, my engagement point with the original organic Sachs stage 1 seemed to get more gradual over the first (and only) 500-1000 miles or so. It started with engaging only at the very top of the pedal travel, and towards the end of its life when it started slipping it engaged a bit lower with more modulation opportunity.
> 
> When I swapped in the 4-puck disc (keeping the original Sachs pressure plate), the engagement pointed stayed a bit lower, but of course the 4-puck is a bit grabbier and takes some finesse to drive smoothly, but it's definitely do-able with care.
> 
> I ran the Stage 3 with 93 octane tune all weekend at Laguna Seca and and no instances of any sort of clutch slip. Then again, I did the same at Thunderhill with the organic but it started slipping shortly after... so knock on wood that this thing continues to hold!



I'm getting better at it. Sometimes I'm totally on it and other times (reversing or 5 point turns out of tight parking spots) it's bad. People tend to look and stare when a nice car sounds like you are grinding up metal! You know what sucks? Driving a racing clutch. You know what's awesome? Driving a racing clutch.


----------



## NoogManTTRS (Mar 28, 2013)

*What about the offerings from SPEC clutch? I'm APR stage 2 now and have slipping in 5th/6th under full boost*

http://www.specclutch.com/cars/Audi/TT-RS/2012/Single

They seem to have a lot to choose from, but don't know if these are direct replacements. I've emailed them for more information.


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

Is Spec any good? All there options require one of their billet flywheels.

This one is rated 100ft/lbs higher than the sachs 4 puck and is sprung:
http://rpmware.com/catalog/item/1831482
It also looks nearly full face, so should last longer.


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

CarbonRS said:


> Is Spec any good? All there options require one of their billet flywheels.
> 
> This one is rated 100ft/lbs higher than the sachs 4 puck and is sprung:
> http://rpmware.com/catalog/item/1831482
> It also looks nearly full face, so should last longer.


SPEC Clutches now lists TT-RS applications directly on their website: http://www.specclutch.com/cars/Audi/TT-RS/2012/Single

All the way up to "Stage 5"  Note that it looks like a single mass (SPEC) flywheel is required with all of the kits, so these are going to not be as quite as OEM. Expect the possibility of transmission gear rattle at idle, if they at anything like the single mass flywheel clutch kits for the 2.0 TFSI engine. Maybe that extra cylinder will smooth things out enough to avoid it with the TT-RS. With my 2011 GTI, the single mass flywheel conversion made it sound a bit like a diesel at idle, in neutral with the AC running. It was fine until I went to trade it in, which resulted in a hit for it "needing a new clutch" according to the dealer. 

Now we just need some people to try them out and report back...


----------



## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

If you search reviews about SPEC clutches you will give up on the idea.


----------



## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

I got 1300 miles on the southbend stage 3 and still solid and smooth. I started banging on it at 800 miles doing wot pulls and VERY free spirited driving and hasn't let me down once or acted up in any way. Can't be happier with it right now. I'm a saving the LC for the strip and better tires so nothing to report there. 

I registered for a 2-day hpde but it was full so I cannot provide any feedback on the track yet. The wavetrac differential is amazing thru the twisties on the back roads so I can only imagine how it will feel with some R compounds. Undulating roads can be downright scary now with the diff and stage 2 torque! :laugh::laugh:.

ninja edit: plus I'm using no lift shift built into my tune running wide open 2nd thru 5th. Clutch doesn't skip a beat.


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

hightechrdn said:


> SPEC Clutches now lists TT-RS applications directly on their website: http://www.specclutch.com/cars/Audi/TT-RS/2012/Single


A few questions:

Has it been tested? 
Who here was the Guinea pig? 
How many pieces did the gearbox bell housing shatter into because the rivets in the clutch disc came out?

If you search SPEC you will see a few comments along the lines of : "friends don't let friends buy SPEC"

There is a reason why South Bend has pretty much taken over the VAG community and it has nothing to do with product quality or pricing. South Bend boasts that the after sale support between customer & South Bend or South Bend Distributor is industry leading and in all my years of selling SB Clutches I have yet to come across a situation where Andy/Jon did not take care of the customer should a problem arise.


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

Just received this email from our Dakar client:



> Issam,
> I have some good news.
> We used the clutch and diff during our latest race in Mugello.
> They performed very well.
> Although the race itself wasn't a success, The gearbox was misused by one of the drivers, resulting in a blown syncro mesh of the second gear. We had to return to the old gearbox setup.


This is on a FWD TDI Tiguan with a Wavetrac FWD 0A6 LSD installed & South Bend endurance unsprung Clutch Disc & PP (OEM DMF still being used due to being a TDI). Looks like those syncro's are becoming problematic though which we will have to look into for upgrading.
I must say I am excited about all these various 0A6 developments going on!


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

INA said:


> Just received this email from our Dakar client:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When did South Bend start offering a kit compatible with the OEM DMF? Their experts said they could do it if a compatible Sachs unit was provided to them, but suggested they hadn't done one before like that for the TTRS.

I've heard of a few instances now of synchro issues requiring rebuilds of the trans, but all from tuner owner cars or raced cars.


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

Marty said:


> When did South Bend start offering a kit compatible with the OEM DMF?


Where the 0A6/TTRS is concerned technically South Bend does not offer anything. We supply SB blanks for what we want done and they make it to our specifications.


----------



## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

I'd say the southbend options Issam has are the ones to go for. I can vouch for what he says about southbends customer care. A friends 2.0tfsi with 500+hp ran into some issues and Southend warrantied it straight away no questions asked. Now that is tip top service.


----------



## adamTTRS (Jan 28, 2013)

*South Bend Stage 3*

I just completed a three day track event at Summit Point over the weekend. I was 100% satisfied with the SB Stage 3 clutch the NGP recommended for me when I needed a new clutch. It was funny that when I got the APR Stage 1 Tune, my clutch started slipping, I guess that is what I get for adding over 100 lbft of torque:laugh:

Anyway, I could not be happier with the APR Tune and its performance over stock. I am a National Instructor with the PCA and run in the Red run group (the fastest) and I was able to keep up with some very highly modified cars. Needless to say, the improvement over my stock numbers is impressive. I am sure Arin at APR will be happy to know the results. 

Great job to NGP for the recommendation and install:thumbup:

Great job to APR for the impressive increase in performance:thumbup:

Watkins Glen is next, watch out people!


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

adamTTRS said:


> I just completed a three day track event at Summit Point over the weekend. I was 100% satisfied with the SB Stage 3 clutch the NGP recommended for me when I needed a new clutch. It was funny that when I got the APR Stage 1 Tune, my clutch started slipping, I guess that is what I get for adding over 100 lbft of torque:laugh:
> 
> Anyway, I could not be happier with the APR Tune and its performance over stock. I am a National Instructor with the PCA and run in the Red run group (the fastest) and I was able to keep up with some very highly modified cars. Needless to say, the improvement over my stock numbers is impressive. I am sure Arin at APR will be happy to know the results.
> 
> ...


Awesome! Glad to see some great clutch options out there for folks.


----------



## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

adamTTRS said:


> Watkins Glen is next, watch out people!


That's great! I'll be there too along with a number of other TTRS guys. Looking forward to meeting you.


----------



## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

adamTTRS said:


> I just completed a three day track event at Summit Point over the weekend. I was 100% satisfied with the SB Stage 3 clutch the NGP recommended for me when I needed a new clutch. It was funny that when I got the APR Stage 1 Tune, my clutch started slipping, I guess that is what I get for adding over 100 lbft of torque:laugh:
> 
> Anyway, I could not be happier with the APR Tune and its performance over stock. I am a National Instructor with the PCA and run in the Red run group (the fastest) and I was able to keep up with some very highly modified cars. Needless to say, the improvement over my stock numbers is impressive. I am sure Arin at APR will be happy to know the results.
> 
> ...


That's awesome Adam. I had no doubt it would perform well based on how mine holds stage 2. It was killing me that I got bumped from the wait list with the warm sunny weather we had over the weekend! Have fun at The Glen!


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Now it looks like SPEC offers units for both the stock DFM and aftermarket billet flywheels. 

The SPEC Stage 3+ with the stock DMF (model SA873F-6) looks like a great option.

http://www.specclutch.com/cars/Audi/TT-RS/2012/Single


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

Good find! Although some like to say Spec is bad, what is actually wrong with them? They seem to have the largest selection to choose from...

So for options that retain the DMF, we have Spec and a custom order South Bend?


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

CarbonRS said:


> Good find! Although some like to say Spec is bad, what is actually wrong with them? They seem to have the largest selection to choose from...
> 
> So for options that retain the DMF, we have Spec and a custom order South Bend?


SPEC, custom order South Bend, or Sachs 4-puck.


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

CarbonRS said:


> Good find! Although some like to say Spec is bad, what is actually wrong with them? They seem to have the largest selection to choose from...
> 
> So for options that retain the DMF, we have Spec and a custom order South Bend?


From past experience , they do the following:

go by spline count on the input shaft
scour the globe to see what other OEM applications carry the same/similar spline count
See if said application is offered in North America
Source said centre portion of clutch disc
Offer a kit
Sell Kit

When you get the kit , the following may happen:

Complain of ill fitment / no fitment - nothing is done
Thank them for an awesome product only to have the clutch fail - you complain - you are told it was an install error (only 1 way to install a clutch mind you considering every shop that installs clutches has a box filled with the alignment tools)
Send it back for exchange / warranty work - it gets kicked to the bottom of the pile and only comes to light when you go public. Then you are told again , "we determined after analysis the clutch was installed incorrectly causing the rivets to break"


One memory that comes to mind was in summer 2008.We ordered 3 racing clutches for some Peugeot race cars destined for a rally in the Caribbean ($1400+ USD). At the time for the XUJ motor , only the 405 came to North America so we figured it was set in stone as the spline count was 18T w/ a diameter of 20mm. SPEC sent us clutches that were 18T but with a 13/16" diameter (0.8125" = 20.63mm) . That 0.63mm changed everything and it was found out that OEM Toyota Tercel (yes a Tercel....) clutch was used to build these "racing clutches". You would install the clutch disc on the input shaft and you could turn it a full 360* on the input shaft axis and it would never bite a single teeth. Those clutches were pretty much useless , never got a refund and never got the issue resolved. In the end we had to overnight SACHS clutches out of the UK so the cars could complete the races. Back at home base , a few cases of the rivets backing out of the disc followed by destruction of the entire PP/Flywheel assembly. At one point in time they were a good company selling awesome products. I personally ran a SPEC clutch for 2 years with no issues but that was 2005. 
As posted above , It is your money , you can choose to spend it where you wish but know that the issue is not the clutch company but the support that comes after the order is processed. 

Honestly this is not rocket science. An email with what you are building or trying to build and 15 minutes later a clutch is ordered to your specs. We have done 0A6 clutches now for DMF TTRS, SMF on Diesels w/6hole flywheels , DMF from MK4 1.8T's (those who want to upgrade past an 02M) etc. It is simple math. Figure out what flywheel you have , the depth / thickness of said flywheel and a clutch can be configured to your needs.

- HTH


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

Interesting, thanks for the background. I only was consider the SPEC because of the stage 3+ is full face, sprung, and works with the DMF. That sounds like the perfect option for me.


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

CarbonRS said:


> Interesting, thanks for the background. I only was consider the SPEC because of the stage 3+ is full face, sprung, and works with the DMF. That sounds like the perfect option for me.


The only OEM VAG Audi we am aware of that had both a sprung disc and a dual mass flywheel was the B5 Audi S4.
Typically rule of thumb has always been : SMF + Sprung disc or DMF + unsprung disc.
Not sure why you would want both a sprung disc and a DMF.


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

INA said:


> The only OEM VAG Audi we am aware of that had both a sprung disc and a dual mass flywheel was the B5 Audi S4.
> Typically rule of thumb has always been : SMF + Sprung disc or DMF + unsprung disc.
> Not sure why you would want both a sprung disc and a DMF.


Ah, OK. I never really thought about, just figured OEM was sprung and a DMF. Would the sprung full face stage 3+ disc and billet flywheel be street friendly? That really is all I care about, and the full face should give it more life with a smoother engagement.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

CarbonRS said:


> Ah, OK. I never really thought about, just figured OEM was sprung and a DMF. Would the sprung full face stage 3+ disc and billet flywheel be street friendly? That really is all I care about, and the full face should give it more life with a smoother engagement.


IMO you want the DMF with an unsprung disc (the model number I shared from SPEC). The disc hangs off the trans and the more mass (from a spring mechanism) the higher the inertia and the more wear on the synchros and the slower the shift. I've heard of at least two instances of TTRS trans synchro issues now from aggressively driven cars, so I'd be careful with hanging added mass off the synchro.

I'd already be concerned about the mass of the full face metal disc on the SPEC Stage 3+... that's one reason puck clutches shift so quickly.


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

Marty said:


> I've heard of at least two instances of TTRS trans synchro issues now from aggressively driven cars, so I'd be careful with hanging added mass off the synchro.


That is more an issue with the design than anything else. Pulled apart one of the 0A6 boxes we had here that was imported from a "running" vehicle. 1st gear Syncro was cracked in 2.
A prominent gear company is involved in getting a solution made though.


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

INA said:


> That is more an issue with the design than anything else. Pulled apart one of the 0A6 boxes we had here that was imported from a "running" vehicle. 1st gear Syncro was cracked in 2.
> A prominent gear company is involved in getting a solution made though.


Other than the synchro issues and the obvious need to upgrade the clutch to handle Stage 3 or even Stage 2 when using launch control, are there any other weak parts or design issues known with the TTRS transmission? 

I have a clutch that I need to have installed. I would like to have a Wavetrac diff installed and any likely/known transmission weaknesses addressed at the same time, so that I can avoid paying for the transmission R and R labor multiple times. 

I thought about having the internals micro polished, but that may be overkill for what KS mostly a street car. 

Any ETA on the upgrades for the synchros? 

Thanks 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

hightechrdn said:


> Other than the synchro issues and the obvious need to upgrade the clutch to handle Stage 3 or even Stage 2 when using launch control, are there any other weak parts or design issues known with the TTRS transmission?
> 
> I have a clutch that I need to have installed. I would like to have a Wavetrac diff installed and any likely/known transmission weaknesses addressed at the same time, so that I can avoid paying for the transmission R and R labor multiple times.
> 
> ...


The MQ500 0A5/0A6 is quite possibly the most robust Gearbox VAG has ever designed and built for a transverse lay out. It does not get much beefier or better than this. Like everything else OEM , short cuts are going to be made such as the shift forks etc.
In time , these will become gearboxes that can handle 1000Nm of torque with minimal upgrades but relatively speaking by North American standards , this gearbox is "new". Look at the 02J & 02M gearboxes , there are countless companies making internal components for both gear boxes to take them to almost 900Nm of torque. Imagine where the 0A6 can go with gears almost double in size to its predecessor. 
If I were in your shoes and I plan to flog on the car in the future , then I would hold off on the Wavetrac until upgraded shift forks and syncro's become available. Should not be too long since this is a common problem now.
Issam


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

INA said:


> The MQ500 0A5/0A6 is quite possibly the most robust Gearbox VAG has ever designed and built for a transverse lay out. It does not get much beefier or better than this. Like everything else OEM , short cuts are going to be made such as the shift forks etc.
> In time , these will become gearboxes that can handle 1000Nm of torque with minimal upgrades but relatively speaking by North American standards , this gearbox is "new". Look at the 02J & 02M gearboxes , there are countless companies making internal components for both gear boxes to take them to almost 900Nm of torque. Imagine where the 0A6 can go with gears almost double in size to its predecessor.
> If I were in your shoes and I plan to flog on the car in the future , then I would hold off on the Wavetrac until upgraded shift forks and syncro's become available. Should not be too long since this is a common problem now.
> Issam


Thanks for the information! Very helpful. 

Sounds like I need to go ahead and install the clutch that I have had sitting in my garage for 6 months, but wait on internal transmission work until the market matures a bit. I don't "need" a Wavetrac at this point and have plenty of other items on the wish list that I can spend the money on instead


----------



## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

hightechrdn said:


> Thanks for the information! Very helpful.
> 
> Sounds like I need to go ahead and install the clutch that I have had sitting in my garage for 6 months, but wait on internal transmission work until the market matures a bit. I don't "need" a Wavetrac at this point and have plenty of other items on the wish list that I can spend the money on instead



Syncro failure seemingly is becoming very common now. Now of 4 cases of it just in my own small circle of friends.


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

Poverty said:


> Syncro failure seemingly is becoming very common now. Now of 4 cases of it just in my own small circle of friends.


When does it usually happen and on what gear? I'd like to avoid a similar fate until some aftermarket options are out.


----------



## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

CarbonRS said:


> When does it usually happen and on what gear? I'd like to avoid a similar fate until some aftermarket options are out.


2nd and 3rd gear seems to be the culprits.

Mine actually suddenly went under normal driving in stop start traffic 

I now have two TTRS gearboxes, going to pull out the broken one soon and inspect the damage and eventually rebuild
It once stronger syncros are available.


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

Poverty said:


> 2nd and 3rd gear seems to be the culprits.


And 1st.


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

INA said:


> And 1st.


This sounds ridiculous. Isn't this Audi's "best" transverse gearbox? :facepalm:


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

CarbonRS said:


> This sounds ridiculous. Isn't this Audi's "best" transverse gearbox? :facepalm:


It is yes.
No different than the issues the 02M/02Q suffered when they first came out. Like I said above , in 2 years we will look back at these issues and laugh when people start dynoing 800+Nm of torque. When you look at what is needed to build up the transmissions in other brands (Mitsubishi , Nissan , BMW , etc) the 0A6 will be a fraction of that.
When issues similar to this arise 2 things happen:
1. Audi does a global recall (ha!) and creates an OEM replacement part that is up to the task at hand.
2. More people = larger audience = aftermarket companies creating a solution.


----------



## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

INA said:


> And 1st.


Yes my 1st and 2nd are fooked. 3rd seems ok for me.


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

INA said:


> It is yes.
> No different than the issues the 02M/02Q suffered when they first came out. Like I said above , in 2 years we will look back at these issues and laugh when people start dynoing 800+Nm of torque. When you look at what is needed to build up the transmissions in other brands (Mitsubishi , Nissan , BMW , etc) the 0A6 will be a fraction of that.
> When issues similar to this arise 2 things happen:
> 1. Audi does a global recall (ha!) and creates an OEM replacement part that is up to the task at hand.
> 2. More people = larger audience = aftermarket companies creating a solution.


Did they make any changes later in production? I wonder if this mostly effected the earlier European cars.

Any timeline on the gearbox upgrades? Might as well do the works while changing the clutch.


----------



## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

CarbonRS said:


> Did they make any changes later in production? I wonder if this mostly effected the earlier European cars.
> 
> Any timeline on the gearbox upgrades? Might as well do the works while changing the clutch.


I know of at least 2 US cars with synchro problems that got rebuilt.


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

And another one in the books for South Bend /Wavetrac with respect to Endurance Racing.

Bart and his team recently participated in the 24H of Nurburgring which was a huge event with over 200,000 fans watching . They ended up winning there class in AT!

This Seat Leon is running a BKD Diesel engine and an 0A6 gearbox converted to FWD. (similar to the 4 motion units)
This set up is a South Bend Stage 5 Endurance clutch with Sachs racing Flywheel running 520Nm & 285hp.

Read more here:
http://autosport.nl/klasse/nieuws/2...weld-nederlandse-klassezege-in-24u-nrburgring

Good job Bart! :thumbup:


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

Very cool. Any upgrades to the gearbox?


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

CarbonRS said:


> Very cool. Any upgrades to the gearbox?


Whatever upgrades were made are currently still in testing. There are OEM parts that are an "upgrade" over what is available in the 0A6 but again , these are still in the testing phase. Don't really want to launch anything until we know for sure the gremlins are taken care of as we have seen what going down that road does in the past with respect to other vendors.
That being said , the adapted 0A6's for VR6 configuration have been surviving 800+Nm of torque so far!


----------



## alexward (Nov 7, 2006)

I have been looking into building a K04 Tiguan 6speed fwd and from what I've read on here and other forums is that I can almost count on the clutch ****ting the bed.

I'm just curious if a stock ttrs clutch would be a direct fit on 2.0T tsi tiguan 0a6?

Not looking at ever making more than 350ft lbs but want something user friendly as its the Daily.


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

alexward said:


> I have been looking into building a K04 Tiguan 6speed fwd and from what I've read on here and other forums is that I can almost count on the clutch ****ting the bed.
> 
> I'm just curious if a stock ttrs clutch would be a direct fit on 2.0T tsi tiguan 0a6?
> 
> Not looking at ever making more than 350ft lbs but want something user friendly as its the Daily.


The South Bend Stage 3 is a daily clutch. Pedal feel will be a little stiff until it breaks in but aside from that it will be fine. I would not use the stock TT-RS clutch as it is piratically the same clutch.


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

How is the life on that south bend unit vs stock?


----------



## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

CarbonRS said:


> How is the life on that south bend unit vs stock?


There is a stage 3 car with over 9k. That was months ago when I bought mine. I have over 6k now. Hard miles and still feeling mint

I would.imagine it would be a direct fit. Issam can verify.


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

steelcurtain said:


> There is a stage 3 car with over 9k. That was months ago when I bought mine. I have over 6k now. Hard miles and still feeling mint
> 
> I would.imagine it would be a direct fit. Issam can verify.


:thumbup:
With feedback from Germany , seems to be going for 15,XXX miles on a TT-RS with custom turbo kit. It is a clutch , eventually it is going to go but it will go alot later than the OEM unit that is for sure!:beer:


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

*Pro tip* to this having 1st Gear & 2nd Gear syncro issues. Force full the gearbox with oil 10mm over the feed port to aid in lubricating/cooling the syncro's. We are working with a Seat Leon customer to incorporate a Gearbox Oil cooler and will report back how it fares with the brass selector fork bushings.


----------



## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

INA said:


> *Pro tip* to this having 1st Gear & 2nd Gear syncro issues. Force full the gearbox with oil 10mm over the feed port to aid in lubricating/cooling the syncro's. We are working with a Seat Leon customer to incorporate a Gearbox Oil cooler and will report back how it fares with the brass selector fork bushings.


Awesome! Design a new fork while your at it! Ones that are preferably not plastic! I've already cracked my 2nd gear fork. Lol


----------



## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

steelcurtain said:


> Awesome! Design a new fork while your at it! Ones that are preferably not plastic! I've already cracked my 2nd gear fork. Lol


Alsox when I redid my trans over the summer, I used 1.5 ltr of motul 144 fluid and the rest oem. I now have no 2nd into 3rd gear grinding and can drive the car the way is supposed to work but doesnot out of the factory.


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

steelcurtain said:


> Awesome! Design a new fork while your at it! Ones that are preferably not plastic! I've already cracked my 2nd gear fork. Lol


Testing the bushings for the forks now. The forks I have are steel not plastic? Never seen the plastic forks , what gearbox code you have Patrick?


----------



## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

INA said:


> Testing the bushings for the forks now. The forks I have are steel not plastic? Never seen the plastic forks , what gearbox code you have Patrick?


Issam,

I was misinformed about the forks being plastic. Mine are steel too. On another note, my 2nd gear synchro took a crap again. Do you know of any billet aluminum or Ti solutions in the works for the locking rib?


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

INA, any updates on transmission upgrades? I need to finally have this new clutch installed that I bought over a year ago... Keep waiting so that I can upgrade the transmission at the same time, but haven't heard of much progress being made. Installing a Wavetrac would be an obvious choice, but otherwise are there other areas to be concerned about? 

I have a dual disc, organic faced clutch and single mass flywheel made by Helix Motorsport UK ready to go in, but started getting paranoid about the impact to transmission reliability from this setup. The clutch itself seems to have proven itself in high HP European cars, though most run the cerametallic clutch discs. 

Have single mass flywheels been tearing up transmission internals?


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

I'd also like to hear more on transmission upgrades and clutch options before summer.


----------



## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

It is amazing. Audi builds a "bullet proof" gearbox and cheaps out on the simplest of components....


steelcurtain said:


> Do you know of any billet aluminum or Ti solutions in the works for the locking rib?


Steel , not Ti or Al and they are in testing now.


hightechrdn said:


> INA, any updates on transmission upgrades? I need to finally have this new clutch installed that I bought over a year ago... Keep waiting so that I can upgrade the transmission at the same time, but haven't heard of much progress being made. Installing a Wavetrac would be an obvious choice, but otherwise are there other areas to be concerned about?


Sorry for some reason this came off my watched thread count. Aside from the 1st & 2nd gears and the associated components , I would say the box is pretty robust. Once these 2 issues are resolved then back to finding the next weekest link.



hightechrdn said:


> Have single mass flywheels been tearing up transmission internals?


That is a theory of mine hence the development of the larger viscous dampner (Fluidampr). Of course it requires long term / rigorous testing.

p.s. A better pendulum mount is currently underway as it was needed for the MK4 VW / MK1 Audi vehicles that wanted to go with the 0A6 box. This will use the 2 securing oem bolts as a base for a better mount.


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

Any ETA on those improvements?


----------



## mrvr6turbo1 (Feb 22, 2006)

Let me give you another option for all the stage 2 guys out there which daily drive the TTRS car.

I am APR stage 2 (93 octane) with APR downpipe only. Stock clutch was slipping in 4th, 5th and 6th gear under torque.

Contacted Kevin from clutchmasters as they have been great in the past with my previous cars. Sent him the stock TTRS pressure plate, Dual mass Flywheel and disc.

He modified the pressure plate for 30% more clamping force and modified the disc to look like the FX300 disc. DMF kept stock. He just needed this for measurements of developing kit.

After 500 brake-in miles I can attest that this is a like stock setup, with no jerkiness and able to hold power. My wife loves it also.

The key here is BREAK-IN FOR 500 MILES!!! I have a friend that started driving it hard since installation and now his clutch is slipping.

Pedal feel is like stock. Pedal engagement position is stock. I cannot be happier.

If I ever go to stage 3, I will contact them again for other options as he told me they are developing their own kits.

Hope this helps stage 2 owners that want the drivability and no chatter. :thumbup:

Still for stage 3 owners Southbend stage 3 is my recommendation until clutchmasters comes out with something or able to modify the stock setup to handle stage 3.

http://www.clutchmasters.com/clutch-kits/

Kevin 

267 E. Valley Blvd. Rialto, CA 92376
Ph: (909) 265-9031


----------



## Fined (Sep 3, 2013)

^^^^^^ Great info. 


I also am running at similar power levels. Currently StageII+. Had 15k miles on StageII+. No slippage. But then I never ever launch my car.
Just got the car back and put about 2600 miles on a new clutch setup on the trip home from Iroz Motorsports in Las Vegas. 

Also another good report for a modified pressure plate. The setup installed in my car is a modified LUK pressure plate. Stock DMF. And OE clutch disk modified with south bend "endurance" friction materials. 
I really can't report that it's holding better as I do not ever launch the car, so I never had any slip previously. I also have none now. Pedal feel is pretty similar to stock, if anything perhaps 5-10% more pressure required, but I may be imagining that as I did not drive the car for 6+ months while it was down for getting the engine build completed.


----------



## Ginovega (Jul 22, 2013)

Thanks for the info. Will they do it for me too if I send them the ttrs OEM clutch?

Sounds like a relief to me. 

Thanks a bunch.


----------



## mrvr6turbo1 (Feb 22, 2006)

Yes Ginovega. Call Kevin at ClutchMasters and he'll do it for you.

Fined, great to know there is the same route with Southbend. I have spoken to Hank regarding the Stage 3 TTRS setup and the clutch options and he gets my FULL respect. He knows sooooo much on the 5 Cyl engines it is unbelievable. 

Waiting for some road videos on the TTRS Stage 3 or any new mods he has.


----------



## TTRSMonster (Mar 25, 2015)

*TT RS DXD Clutch Issues, tranny rebuild 3 times in the past year.*

Now you know 3 cases. I had my TTRS a little over a year. I had APR Intercooler install, DXD Cluch, APR Turbo Back Exhaust and APR Fully Loaded Flash. When I got the DXD Cluch installed I went through 2 transmission rebuilds and both times it was Synchro issues. Not its been 1500 miles from the last rebuild and I'm having the same problem. 

In reality it cost me $11,000 to rebuild this damn car 3 times. So I think I will be getting rid of this DXD Clutch.


----------



## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

INA said:


> It is amazing. Audi builds a "bullet proof" gearbox and cheaps out on the simplest of components....
> 
> Steel , not Ti or Al and they are in testing now.
> 
> ...




Issam - the bushings seem to be the issue from my mechanic's perspective. I have some pictures after I just rebuilt the trans again and broke another fork but haven't pulled it yet to find out. My first gear and reverse are ****ed up again. This has happened twice now immediately after rebuilding the trans for the 2nd gear synchro failure. I'll post some pics soon when I have time to write up a full post. Should be this weekend.


----------



## Fined (Sep 3, 2013)

TTRSMonster said:


> Now you know 3 cases. I had my TTRS a little over a year. I had APR Intercooler install, DXD Cluch, APR Turbo Back Exhaust and APR Fully Loaded Flash. When I got the DXD Cluch installed I went through 2 transmission rebuilds and both times it was Synchro issues. Not its been 1500 miles from the last rebuild and I'm having the same problem.
> 
> In reality it cost me $11,000 to rebuild this damn car 3 times. So I think I will be getting rid of this DXD Clutch.



there are certainly more knowledgeable guys on the subject but from what I've read the issue with the weak synchro is agitated by single mass flywheel. From what I can understand the dual mass helps dampen the force transferred from the engine.


----------



## steelcurtain (Mar 26, 2008)

TTRSMonster said:


> Now you know 3 cases. I had my TTRS a little over a year. I had APR Intercooler install, DXD Cluch, APR Turbo Back Exhaust and APR Fully Loaded Flash. When I got the DXD Cluch installed I went through 2 transmission rebuilds and both times it was Synchro issues. Not its been 1500 miles from the last rebuild and I'm having the same problem.
> 
> In reality it cost me $11,000 to rebuild this damn car 3 times. So I think I will be getting rid of this DXD Clutch.


Very interesting. I have the same story. DXD gave me a new clutch disk and a different pressure plate and still blowing it up.


----------



## URHank (Mar 19, 2009)

Fined said:


> there are certainly more knowledgeable guys on the subject but from what I've read the issue with the weak synchro is agitated by single mass flywheel. From what I can understand the dual mass helps dampen the force transferred from the engine.


My 2 cents is that the inner synchro is the chicken that proceeds the egg(the bent fork). If this happens and you do not try and force it into gear, you can get away with just replacing the inner dog synchro. This leads me to believe that if the inner synchro was made of better materials, the egg would go away. 

I have never seen a bent fork without a broken synchro either.


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

Does anyone know what the race teams are doing to get around these issues? Unless they bought a VLN car, all the ones I've seen are using the stock AWD trans. I wonder how they are dealing with these issues.


----------



## mrvr6turbo1 (Feb 22, 2006)

All I can say is I haven’t had any issues with my transmission and I have 23,000 miles. I have not tracked it yet, but I drive it very spirited. The difference maybe is, that I always blip the throttle or heel and tow shift at anytime to match revs, even if I am driving slowly.

I also row the gears instead of trying to make it a sequential shifter by jamming the actual gear lever. (Joke)

Also had a Golf R with APR stage 1 only and side stepping the clutch at 6,000 RPM didn't upset the tranny either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxLTstwI4aM


I believe the TTRS is very sensitive on regular shifts vs RPM on the synchros, but that's just me as I am not mechanically inclined, just theory.


----------



## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

I just past 45k and track regularly with the OEM setup. No issues yet and I'm just careful with the speed of the shifts. Other than that, I drive the snot out of it. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

Hello guys,

Been a while since ive been on here.

My 2 cents.

Drive your car hard on stock clutch, and eventually the syncros will break. Could be the first 10k miles, could be 50-80k. But at some point it will break.

Now those with aftermarket clutches and flywheels, we will suffer premature syncro failure.

Ive had 3 boxes now, very annoying on what is otherwise a solid box.

Ive actually got two gearboxes, and we stripped down both, bear in mind im hitting over 620lbft of torque, and all the gears themselves where in PERFECT condition, in both boxes.

Now ive got a manufacturer in the UK who will make us stronger syncros. However I need 15 people to commit, and we are looking at a price of 80-100 british pounds per ring. So to make this box bulletproof could cost 600 sterling in parts.

I know that a stronger material will work as a guy who went through 4 gearboxes in germany had some made and 15km later and its been fine and hes happy.

Now at this stage I have 11 people who have said they will have some including some tuners. So for any of those interested please put your name down, once I have the minimum of 15 definite and serious comfirmation of "yes", I will be dropping my spare gearbox off to them to pin down on a price and starting the design process.

Now i dont know if once they have made these syncros once whether they will be able to continue to offer these syncros on a 1 sale basis. So anyone with a aftermarket clutch or thinking of going more power in the future, put your name down to not potentially end up being disappointed.


----------



## R5T (Apr 7, 2010)

After all i read about high power 2.5TFSI builds, one thing is very clear to me, "You better off with a S-Tronic" gearbox.


----------



## Ginovega (Jul 22, 2013)

I would have paid up to $7k more if s-tronic gearbox was available here in the US, on top of $70k

( all the options except heated seat)


----------



## mrvr6turbo1 (Feb 22, 2006)

Just leaving this here as I have had excellent results with the FX300 with the stock Dual mass Flywheel.

I am APR Stage 2+


----------



## dodongjuan (Feb 2, 2014)

This is for TTRS ..? I checked the clutch master website and they don't have anything for TTRS ..?



mrvr6turbo1 said:


> Just leaving this here as I have had excellent results with the FX300 with the stock Dual mass Flywheel.
> 
> I am APR Stage 2+


----------



## mrvr6turbo1 (Feb 22, 2006)

dondongjuan, yes is for the 2012 and 2013 USA TTRS. They have not updated their website, but they uploaded a video of this new clutch system on their website.

Call and talk to Kevin or Alex. 

I am running their setup.

http://www.clutchmasters.com/videos/


----------



## pal (Aug 16, 2000)

mrvr6turbo1 said:


> All I can say is I haven’t had any issues with my transmission and I have 23,000 miles. I have not tracked it yet, but I drive it very spirited. The difference maybe is, that I always blip the throttle or heel and tow shift at anytime to match revs, even if I am driving slowly.





mrvr6turbo1 said:


> Just leaving this here as I have had excellent results with the FX300 with the stock Dual mass Flywheel.
> 
> I am APR Stage 2+


So within about a 2 month period you went to from stock to Stage 2+ and upgraded your clutch with the Clutch Masters FX300 and the OE DMF? Did you get slippage with the stock clutch after going to Stage 2? Also, did you reuse your DMF or get a new OEM DMF to go with the FX300 kit? Tx.


----------



## Ginovega (Jul 22, 2013)

So , what you are saying that I don't have to buy OEM clutch and have then modify it. You just purchase the already modified clutch.

Sweet.


----------



## mrvr6turbo1 (Feb 22, 2006)

My scenario is a little different. I went Stage 2+ for 10,000 miles with my stock clutch system. After 10k it started slipping in 5th and 6th gear. I slowed down to preserve the clutch system until I could find a stock like no noise clutch system that could handle APR Stage2+. Since southbend didn't offer this with the stock dual mass flywheel, I decided to call Cluchmasters. Kevin, mentioned they didn’t have a clutch system for my car, but if I could send him all the stock parts he could modify it, give me a hell of a deal as they were going to take measurements of all the stock parts to make their own kit. I sent them the stock pressure plate, disc, bearing and DMF. (Bought at Audi dealer) 

They modified the pressure plate and disc. DMF was not touched. My kit is just a modified stock pressure plate and disc. It has been great!

As far as the one I see in the video, it looks like they have a different pressure plate but they added the self adjusting springs. This will keep stock-like pedal feel and adjustability. Also I see from the video that the disc has springs rather than being a solid disc. Also in the video they show a SMF, which I gather it will have some chatter noise.

You can call them for more questions, but I know if I need another clutch, I would go Clutchmasters as I’ve had them in other cars and have not had a problem with them.


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

Good info! Did you get a modified TTRS pressure plate or the one in the video? It sounds like you have a TTRS one, just want to clarify. I'd like to go the same route.


----------



## mrvr6turbo1 (Feb 22, 2006)

Mine is a modified OEM TTRS pressure plate, like the one on the right. I didn't have the one in the video because it was not available. The one in the video is a lot more robust as you can see in the self adjusting springs, splines and actual pressure plate casing. (Thicker)

When I need a clutch again, I'll go with the one in the video.


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Poverty said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> Been a while since ive been on here.
> 
> ...


Hi, I am very interested in the upgraded synchro parts.

I have had a Helix twin disc clutch and SMF for almost two years now, waiting to be installed because of the issues reported with the transmissions once the DMF is removed for a SMF. Since the Helix clutch plates do not have dampening springs, it is likely a worse case scenario for the weak synchronizers.

Do you believe the custom pieces that you are having made will allow the transmission to survive with the Helix/SMF setup? If so, definitely count me in for a set! 


From your experience, other than an upgraded engine damper, would you recommend any other upgrades to support the SMF/solid clutch disc setup?

Thank you


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Re: Clutchmaster TTRS clutch

Pros:
Stronger pressure plate cover than OEM.
Retains the SAC function (?), which should help extend clutch life with more consistent performance and feel over the life of the clutch.
Dampened clutch discs.
Many different options for friction material/clutch disc styles.
Much lighter SMF (vs OEM DMF).
Cost should be reasonable as it is a single disc setup with stamped pressure plate cover.

Cons:
Not a twin disc clutch.
Will a single disc clutch have enough holding power for Stage 3 or hybrid turbo setups with 500+HP and 600+lbft without having to make the pressure plate/clutch pedal too stiff for (comfortable) usage? 
Higher Moment of Inertia than a reduced diameter, twin disc clutch.
No DMF... With a SMF and sprung clutch discs, will the result be broken synchros (and shift forks)?


For those who have broken transmissions after installing the "DXD" clutch setup, what is the configuration of that flywheel and clutch discs? SMF or OEM DMF? Solid or sprung clutch discs? If the DXD clutch is a SMF/sprung clutch disc configuration and the results are broken synchronizers, then we should see the same type of transmission failures with this Clutchmasters setup.


----------



## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

hightechrdn said:


> Hi, I am very interested in the upgraded synchro parts.
> 
> I have had a Helix twin disc clutch and SMF for almost two years now, waiting to be installed because of the issues reported with the transmissions once the DMF is removed for a SMF. Since the Helix clutch plates do not have dampening springs, it is likely a worse case scenario for the weak synchronizers.
> 
> ...


Replied via PM.

To keep everyone else updated, im dropping my spare gearbox off to transmission specialists on Wednesday. From there its roughly 8 weeks for the parts to be developed and manufacturered.


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Poverty said:


> Replied via PM.
> 
> To keep everyone else updated, im dropping my spare gearbox off to transmission specialists on Wednesday. From there its roughly 8 weeks for the parts to be developed and manufacturered.


Hi Poverty, any updates on those custom synchro parts? 



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

Almost forgot about this. Looking forward to an update.


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

Looks like clutchmasters has the whole line up of discs for our cars now. Disc types: http://www.clutchmasters.com/clutch-kits/
Kits for our cars: http://www.clutchmasters.com/2012-2013-2-5l-rs-turbo-6-speed/

I wonder if the DMF could take the FX350, looks interesting and they are claiming better life than stock.


----------



## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

Syncros potentially 8 weeks away now if I can get 15 orders, more info soon


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Poverty said:


> Syncros potentially 8 weeks away now if I can get 15 orders, more info soon


Please post up pictures, drawings, BOM, description/materials, etc. of the parts that are going to be available. As I said before, count me in if you can pull this together.


----------



## ExcessiveBoost (Oct 13, 2002)

hightechrdn said:


> Please post up pictures, drawings, BOM, description/materials, etc. of the parts that are going to be available. As I said before, count me in if you can pull this together.


Add 1 more to the cause...


----------



## Poverty (Feb 17, 2012)

Thanks guys, just working out a few more minor details then will create a fresh thread about the syncros.

Out of interest can I ask what year your cars where built?


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

US spec 2012


----------



## ExcessiveBoost (Oct 13, 2002)

Same. Us 2012.


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

2013 Canadian. Same plus model the US got, I think.


----------



## ZPrime (Mar 7, 2006)

*FV-QR*

Anybody who has done transmission work - do we have a clutch delay valve on the TTRS?


----------



## Asfaltfretter (Sep 29, 2015)

*Europ vs USA*

Hello guys , first sorry for my english ,but i try.

I drive a TT-RS in europe and follow this topic .

My experience with my TT-RS is Now a few years old And i have a stage 2 car , i understand in USA its harder to get Some horsepower with the quality of the fuel. My car has 420 hp and 640 Nm at the wheels on stage 2.

I changed the intercooler And blow off. purge bij FORGE, And the exhaust from Miltek . Suspention Bilstein .

Now the clutch story...

Afther the stage 2 tuning the standard clutch even doesnt hold at the dyno test run , a big dip at 3000 rpm.
So,i ordered a upgrade from Sachs pressure plate and organic disc upgrade 550 plus ( Max 600Nm), i decided to stay with 580 NM.

By opening the clutch They called me to say my DMF was to much out of normal specs , so i put also a new one in it .

Sachs installed with new DMF , 

Not 1 Year later the clutch doesnt hold anymore with normal driving And one airfield drive day. Slipping at high gears at low rpm.

Back to zero , open clutch again , organic disc completely gone , cracks in pressure plate And heat trails.

Ordered a 4 Puck sinter from Sachs 650 - 700Nm for DMF , i keept the pressure plate , again They Told me the DMF has to much backlash(?) . I Saïd to put it in again , i dont gonna change it again.

The sinter holds very wel but the use of the clutch pedal is heavy And the driving daily is not easy , when you drive fast you know its the best combinatoin .

This summier , cracking noise at low speeds And driving away , the bearing pressure spring (oem) is not holding.
So the clutch must to be open again. I knew my DMF was not in good chape And my pressure plate was burned from last time. I decided to do everything at once .

After a good talk with TT-RS specialists from hperformance in germany i ordered a SMF , They told me the DMF Will never hold afther tuning And most forget the torque That ruines the DMF. They had a lot of cars driving with a defect DMF And They had a lot Of cars with broken crankshafts . Long story Told short , That torque And power = SMF

I ordered a custom made clutch for 850Nm so,i have enough for a stage3 till 750 Nm.
Last week,it arrivés And i was surprised to see a clutch i saw in the USA!.. But couldnt order 

Their so called custom made clutch was a stage 3 DXD south bend clutch with the 8 pad sinter And springs. First i was angry , but later not any more because this was my first choice.

Next week i Goes in with the sach centraal bearing , 

If the oem pressure bearing had hold i still drove the 4 Puck from Sachs , it has a little ringel when the clutch comes up , but Notting more , fast shifting also

Now i am very curious for the dxd clutch .... The 4 Puck is very brutal , the 8 Puck Will drive smoother


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Let's us know how the new clutch works out. There isn't a lot of information on how these clutch options actually perform and hold up in the real world. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## Asfaltfretter (Sep 29, 2015)

hightechrdn said:


> Let's us know how the new clutch works out. There isn't a lot of information on how these clutch options actually perform and hold up in the real world.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


That s also my point , not much info About dxd clutches , but hperformance has installed it in all the TT-RS They modified .
They startend to get rid of the DMF but there was only a stary disc ( no springs) , a lot of gearboxes broken, 

Now the cooperation between Sachs And dxd Seems to work out. I Will post the results afther installing , And the condition of the 4-Puck disc ( 10000km on it)

.


----------



## bennyvh (Sep 26, 2015)

good info asfaltfretter as i'm looking to start tuning mine aswell..
are you by any chance from belgium? Your name is kind of flemmish


----------



## ZPrime (Mar 7, 2006)

*FV-QR*

DXD = South Bend Clutch...


----------



## Asfaltfretter (Sep 29, 2015)

yes i am from Belgium .


----------



## 1.8 skeet skeet (Aug 11, 2004)

mrvr6turbo1 said:


> My scenario is a little different. I went Stage 2+ for 10,000 miles with my stock clutch system. After 10k it started slipping in 5th and 6th gear. I slowed down to preserve the clutch system until I could find a stock like no noise clutch system that could handle APR Stage2+. Since southbend didn't offer this with the stock dual mass flywheel, I decided to call Cluchmasters. Kevin, mentioned they didn’t have a clutch system for my car, but if I could send him all the stock parts he could modify it, give me a hell of a deal as they were going to take measurements of all the stock parts to make their own kit. I sent them the stock pressure plate, disc, bearing and DMF. (Bought at Audi dealer)
> 
> They modified the pressure plate and disc. DMF was not touched. My kit is just a modified stock pressure plate and disc. It has been great!
> 
> ...


I was thinking about the FX400 8 puck and keeping the DMF. I spoke with Kevin a few days ago and he told me that's my best option for drive ability day to day and race.


----------



## 1.8 skeet skeet (Aug 11, 2004)

Any one out there


----------



## CarbonRS (Jul 15, 2013)

IIRC, Iroz thinks the most synchro friendly setup is the sachs 4 puck and OEM DMF. It was mentioned on here or on his facebook. If not that, just find the lightest disc you like and an OEM DMF. I don't have experience driving the 4 puck, but it is street-able from what I've seen. I think you can get the FX400 in 4, 6, and 8 puck? Wonder how much they weigh vs the Sachs.


----------



## 1.8 skeet skeet (Aug 11, 2004)

From what people say the Sachs 4-Puck is street able, but I wonder if its ok running a sprung disc on the DMF. I need peoples thoughts on it; i know some people have taken out the 4-puck because of drive ability.


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

1.8 skeet skeet said:


> From what people say the Sachs 4-Puck is street able, but I wonder if its ok running a sprung disc on the DMF. I need peoples thoughts on it; i know some people have taken out the 4-puck because of drive ability.


The Sachs 4 puck for the TT-RS uses an un-sprung disc, if the picture is correct... http://www.irozmotorsport.com/audi-ttrs-clutch-kit-sachs-performance/

I haven't personally driven a TT-RS with that clutch, so can't say how it does day to day. IROZ says it is surprisingly usable (off the track), but I am not sure if that includes stop and go traffic either.


----------



## 1.8 skeet skeet (Aug 11, 2004)

Well I just purchased mine from Hank so we shall see 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Warranty_Void (Jul 7, 2016)

I'm looking for a new clutch for my RS, I'm looking at a 6 puck ceramic from helix or a clutch master FX 350 or FX 400 anyone have feedback on them?


----------



## kman0218 (Jun 1, 2007)

*Sachs 4 Puck*



1.8 skeet skeet said:


> Well I just purchased mine from Hank so we shall see
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hi Guys,

I'm gathering from this thread that the Sachs 4 puck seems to be the best trade off for holding the extra power. It seems to be light enough not to harm the syncros as much from the rotational inertia. I'm not crazy about the "aggressive start" but then again I've driven cars with on/off switches for clutches with plenty of engagement effort. That being said my only worry is the longevity of the clutch. Has anyone done any long term driving of the 4 puck on and off the track? I'd like to get a good idea of duration expected between clutch changes.

Cheers,
K


----------



## kman0218 (Jun 1, 2007)

The new sach 4 puck sintered is in. First impressions are. The pedal has a little more spring to it but not much more effort than stock. Engagement is higher up in the pedal travel due to the SAC function not being there anymore. Also this clutch hates being feathered. Seems like the more you slip it, the grippier it gets. Seems like it likes to be blipped gently (get the car moving) and let out quickly, but not letting it just pop up. Down shifts with rev matching is even better than stock. Only pet peav is the hill assist, since this clutch hates to be slipped at all it is very difficult to come away clean from a hill start. VCDS to the rescue. You can't turn it all the way off but you can make it release almost instantly upon touching gas/clutch. I caution you though, the car will roll back on you. Worst case if you aren't good with hills use the ebrake.

Vcds:
Abs (3)
Adaption (10)
Select drop down menu option- documented adaption channels
Select HHA

Values
0 - default normal
1 - release early - touch gas/brake
2 - release late - slipping clutch on throttle

Set value 1

When you have set the value push test and ensure it is the correct setting. It will display the option you set. Then hit save. 

K


----------



## djmanjay (Jan 20, 2006)

I know this is an older thread. I have had the Sachs 4 puck with stock dual mass in now for about 3k miles. Makes some noise here and there but plenty streetable. 2013 TTRS


----------



## Luxferro (Dec 31, 2015)

I'm using the Clutchmasters 02992-HDBL-R (FX400 - 8 puck, rigid disc for use w/ OEM Dual Mass flywheel). https://www.ecstuning.com/b-clutch-masters-parts/fx400-clutch-kit-stage-4/02992-hdbl-r~clu/ I've had it in about a week now and loving it so far. It's almost like OEM, but a tad grabby when it warms up.

I haven't had a chance to go WOT yet, since I also got a new turbo (Xona hybrid) installed along w/ it, and waiting for the software to get finished... so they told me to stay out of boost for now.. but I've given it some gas here or there, and it hit ~20 PSI and no issues (was logging cylinder miss fire counters, and timing to make sure nothing bad was happening).


----------



## kman0218 (Jun 1, 2007)

Luxferro said:


> I'm using the Clutchmasters 02992-HDBL-R (FX400 - 8 puck, rigid disc for use w/ OEM Dual Mass flywheel). https://www.ecstuning.com/b-clutch-masters-parts/fx400-clutch-kit-stage-4/02992-hdbl-r~clu/ I've had it in about a week now and loving it so far. It's almost like OEM, but a tad grabby when it warms up.
> 
> I haven't had a chance to go WOT yet, since I also got a new turbo (Xona hybrid) installed along w/ it, and waiting for the software to get finished... so they told me to stay out of boost for now.. but I've given it some gas here or there, and it hit ~20 PSI and no issues (was logging cylinder miss fire counters, and timing to make sure nothing bad was happening).


I went a similar way after the sachs 4 puck...it was great at first but the squealing drove me nuts once it broke in and I had to pull it out. I went clutch master SMF steel with 8 puck sprung.. I'm still breaking it in right now, so nothing to report just yet. Just that engagement is lighter and more gradual compared to the on/off switch. I also noticed as it breaks in more and more that it's getting more "grabby". I have my boost dialed right down until it fully breaks in... out of curiosity what tune are you going to be using? I've been pondering the k04 hybrid k24.2 but I can't seem to find the correct tune.

Cheers,
K


----------



## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

If anyone is looking for a SMF setup, I have a brand new Helix Autosports SMF plus twin disc clutch. The kit includes a CNC'd clutch cover. I have the organic disc option so it well mannered on the street.

Cost for this flywheel/clutch kit in USD varies based on the exchange rate (Helix Autosports is located in the UK) but I paid over $2k with shipping and import duties/fees/taxes. Since I am trading my TT-RS the first of this coming week, I would be willing to let the full Helix flywheel plus twin disc clutch kit go for $1200 shipped.

PM me if you are interested.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## ffndarmy (May 20, 2014)

*Flywheel*

Seems that the biggest problem isn't the clutch in itself. But the Flywheel. The DMF is the way to go from what I gather after 4 years of this post? If that is the case, which I am good with, where does everyone source their DMF's? Audi wants my first born son for one, and as much as he can be a pain, I have to deny. If that is not the case, then what flywheel is proven to be the best for street, strip and the occasional hill climb event.

Thank you in advance!


----------



## Luxferro (Dec 31, 2015)

ffndarmy said:


> Seems that the biggest problem isn't the clutch in itself. But the Flywheel. The DMF is the way to go from what I gather after 4 years of this post? If that is the case, which I am good with, where does everyone source their DMF's? Audi wants my first born son for one, and as much as he can be a pain, I have to deny. If that is not the case, then what flywheel is proven to be the best for street, strip and the occasional hill climb event.
> 
> Thank you in advance!


The stock Audi DMF is the only one you should be putting on your car, unless you want destroyed syncros and/or a broken crank. 

This is where I bought mine: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-volkswagen-audi-parts/flywheel/07k105266d/

And I got this clutch, and it works great: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-clutch-masters-parts/fx400-clutch-kit-stage-4/02992-hdbl-r~clu/


----------



## Luxferro (Dec 31, 2015)

kman0218 said:


> I went a similar way after the sachs 4 puck...it was great at first but the squealing drove me nuts once it broke in and I had to pull it out. I went clutch master SMF steel with 8 puck sprung.. I'm still breaking it in right now, so nothing to report just yet. Just that engagement is lighter and more gradual compared to the on/off switch. I also noticed as it breaks in more and more that it's getting more "grabby". I have my boost dialed right down until it fully breaks in... out of curiosity what tune are you going to be using? I've been pondering the k04 hybrid k24.2 but I can't seem to find the correct tune.
> 
> Cheers,
> K


Single mass is not good for your car. They have been proven to lead to destroyed synros and broken cranks.


----------



## kman0218 (Jun 1, 2007)

Luxferro said:


> Single mass is not good for your car. They have been proven to lead to destroyed synros and broken cranks.


Seeing as everyone seems to have an opinion on the RS clutch setup. I'd like to hear a technical explanation of why the DMF setup is so great other than "this set of people blew up their trans with SMF". Or SMF = bad. I think the real culprit is NLS and LC. Syncros don't just blow because of FWs. I know that the lighter discs allow the syncros to get the job done easier but both setups offer light discs. I get the damping effect of DMF on LC, but how long is DMF going to last before seperating when feeding it torque way beyond it's capacity. My personal opinion is that "abuse is abuse". If you beat on something hard enough it will break whether you soften the blow or not. Seems if you use DMF get ready to replace the FW frequently or SMF running into trans issues when pushing the car hard all the time.


----------



## Luxferro (Dec 31, 2015)

kman0218 said:


> Seeing as everyone seems to have an opinion on the RS clutch setup. I'd like to hear a technical explanation of why the DMF setup is so great other than "this set of people blew up their trans with SMF". Or SMF = bad. I think the real culprit is NLS and LC. Syncros don't just blow because of FWs. I know that the lighter discs allow the syncros to get the job done easier but both setups offer light discs. I get the damping effect of DMF on LC, but how long is DMF going to last before seperating when feeding it torque way beyond it's capacity. My personal opinion is that "abuse is abuse". If you beat on something hard enough it will break whether you soften the blow or not. Seems if you use DMF get ready to replace the FW frequently or SMF running into trans issues when pushing the car hard all the time.


You're free to use whatever you want. If you do you're homework you'll find that the general consensus of all the guys who specialize in building these engines will tell you to avoid SMF. If you're not in the TTRS Facebook group, I suggest joining it. It's much more active than this site.

A whole thread about the reasons why:
https://m.facebook.com/groups/520067678072375?view=permalink&id=1165591736853296

To sum it up, it has to do with the harmonics and lack of a pilot bearing on input shaft.


----------



## kman0218 (Jun 1, 2007)

Luxferro said:


> You're free to use whatever you want. If you do you're homework you'll find that the general consensus of all the guys who specialize in building these engines will tell you to avoid SMF. If you're not in the TTRS Facebook group, I suggest joining it. It's much more active than this site.
> 
> A whole thread about the reasons why:
> https://m.facebook.com/groups/520067678072375?view=permalink&id=1165591736853296
> ...


Thanks Lux, I will check it out as I'm working with an Audi tuner now that does have extensive knowledge of RS/S models. His main concern was replacing DMF constantly as mine came out of the car completely out of spec because of the torque levels after only 30k with zero abusive driving. I will do my homework though. If someone has figured this one out I'm all ears. I've just been fed alot of misinformation.


----------



## VRPISSED (Jan 7, 2005)

Wish this thread was still going. Would be great to know more info, rather than what people have installed, years ago, and no updates. I don't have a FB, and never will, don't want to be like all those losers who do. :facepalm:


----------



## robotvoice (Apr 7, 2014)

VRPISSED said:


> Wish this thread was still going. Would be great to know more info, rather than what people have installed, years ago, and no updates. I don't have a FB, and never will, don't want to be like all those losers who do. :facepalm:


Yeah it's sad to see so many people leave a dedicated car forum to post on a toxic and failing platform where your comments get jumbled or censored because of "magic algorithms" that choose for you what you actually see. Once people wake up they'll hopefully start coming back to these sites. 

For those people still on here, they should post up some clutch updates they have been riding for a while to keep the discussion going.


----------



## Reasonable_Doubtz (Aug 6, 2020)

robotvoice said:


> VRPISSED said:
> 
> 
> > Wish this thread was still going. Would be great to know more info, rather than what people have installed, years ago, and no updates. I don't have a FB, and never will, don't want to be like all those losers who do. <img src="http://www.vwvortex.com/Anthony/Smilies/facepalm.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Facepalm" class="inlineimg" />
> ...


I don’t know of any clutch updates. I have looked into that area yet but I will soon. I haven’t done any upgrades to my TTRS yet, but I will soon. However, I do agree that these forums don’t have the same community that it once held when the car first came out years ago. And it’s disappointing to see and experience as a owner because I feel that it isn’t just the forums but also a lot of support from bigger tuner companies such as APR have stopped focusing on the 8J due to the 8S. I do understand that there is more money probably to be made over with the 8S and I do like the 8S but I hate that it stole so much attention from the 8J; in my opinion.


----------



## pgeorgan (Jul 31, 2020)

I have a clutch job coming up in the not-too-distant future.

I don't have freakBook, either, so I will definitely be on here to talk about it. 

Cheers!


----------



## DjMarkOne (Sep 22, 2020)

pgeorgan said:


> I have a clutch job coming up in the not-too-distant future.
> 
> I don't have freakBook, either, so I will definitely be on here to talk about it.
> 
> Cheers!


What did you end up going with and how as it been so far?


----------



## Neal376 (Sep 23, 2020)

i just picked up a ttrs, and all the problems the previous owner didnt fix. I am getting a pretty sig rumble and vibration on throttle off decel and from a start. i am asssuming this is the dmf (i didnt notice it until I swapped out the pendulum mount in the subframe for a solid one - - vibration city)

I tossed the DMF in my 350z for a single mass and barely noticed a difference. just made a lot of clutch chatter. if a DMF last 7 years, that aint bad. but i always appreciate an engine that revs better. so i dunno, ill get whatever works


----------



## cofranTTRS (Nov 25, 2020)

Hi to all, I'm new to the forum!
I have a TTRS MK2 for almost 2 years and had to replace a clutch on last november (2019). I only changed the clutch, pressure plate and clutch slave cylinder (the metal revision), here are the links if any one is intrested
Clutch: SouthBend Clutch SBC Stage 3 Endurance & Uprated pressure plate:








Stage 3 Clutch Kit - Endurance


Designed for dedicated track cars. Conservatively rated at 485ft/lbs.




www.ecstuning.com





Slave Cylinder:








Clutch Slave Cylinder/Throwout Bearing (Metal)


Replacement slave cylinder with integrated throwout bearing




www.ecstuning.com





I didn't replace the DMF mainly because of cost issues. I live in Chile, South America and importing spare parts is very very expensive.. Long story short, and with only with 5k kms on the new cultch (not abuse at all by the way) the DMF started to fail. The gears randomly started to "not enter", random vibrations, and so on... So I made my self a Harakiri and bought the OEM DFM








Flywheel


Does not include hardware




www.ecstuning.com





Doing some reasearch, the problems that I have are realted to the failng of the DMF. Not really sure but since it was the only thing that I didn't replace I satarted there.

The overall milage of the car is 42.000 kms (barely 30k miles), and 25k miles were all very abused miles from the previous owner, and as a friend posted previously, I carried all the problems also from that abuse.

The car is on the way to the shop so I'll be posting updates and pics if you want =)
I'm also doing a intake valve cleaning (never found any videos or posts from some that has done it on this 5 cylinder engines, so it will be a first), bouth all the necessary gaskets, seals, etc.

Cheers and greetings from the very south end of the world.


----------

