# FrankenTurbo (or k04) VS. Big Turbo. Which one would you pick, and why?



## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

Which one would you pick? If you pick BT, make sure to list reasons why you would do BT and what turbo you would do.
Which turbo has a nice powerband with 250hp+?
I'm rebuilding a 1.8T and I need some ideas. 
It's gotta be streetable. Like no revving to 7 or 8k RPMs to get decent torque.
I'm already doing forged rods so i should be good to go either route.

Ready, set, debate! :laugh:


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## hyperformancevw (Mar 15, 2007)

rods for only 250hp??? what a waste


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## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

hyperformancevw said:


> rods for only 250hp??? what a waste


I rather only do the engine once. That way if I ever do 25psi, it wont blow up on me.
Care to suggest a turbo?


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## ManikGTI (May 18, 2009)

you should decide what your budget is and then it would be easier to tell you what you should do...


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## Gonzzz (Apr 27, 2010)

ManikGTI said:


> you should decide what your budget is and then it would be easier to tell you what you should do...


Max 3k.
I was thinking GT28RS and Revo tuning. Frakenturbo isn't for me...


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## sledge0001 (Oct 7, 2007)

I will chime in here...

I have run the following:

1. Chipped K03s from GIAC
2. E05B Turbo from Eurospec (a tad larger than the K04-001 Turbo and probably very similar to the frankenturbo...) w/ GIAC K04 file
3. ATP Eliminator 2 Kit w / 3071 and Eurodyne 630 file trust me it killed the E05B powerband and WHP went up by well over 90HP...
4. I am now running the Pagparts T3 bottom mount setup with the same 3071 and tune and it would kill my old Eliminator 2 setup...


So my suggestion would be save the money and do a proper 2871 or 3071 they are both streetable and can yield you up to 375WHP -400WHP with rods and the right tune... You would be wasting your $ on anything less...


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## PHIXION AZ (Jul 16, 2008)

do you like going fast from dead stops, like is 1st and 2nd gear important?


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## 40rty1.8T (Apr 25, 2010)

sledge0001 said:


> I will chime in here...
> 
> I have run the following:
> 
> ...



really liked your input. With me I'm more of a 0% tolerance towards lag and I've had my share at the wheel with GT28's, GT30-35, GT40, stock, K04. I can't stand the lag that I felt in the 35, 40, and hell even the 28RS(go figure). Call me crazy but I actually really liked the K04. It was a little annoying though when at redline it could not hold boost to save its life. I'm torn with friends showing me numbers with their BT kits. I'm not wanting the lag and though and the K04 is fun it can't keep stable boost. With all your setups, how is your lag? BT?

I've read up on FrankenTurbos and all, great work but your still dealing with the same Tiny turbo that is a very rapidly aging design regardless if you try to improve. 

What should I do? I have idea's as for using turbo's that haven't been used before with 1.8T's but not sure if spending the money for that is worth it. WHat to do??


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## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

Build your GR28rs setup right and you can have 350whp and 0 lag compared to k03 chipped 

with an electronic boost controller like Eboost2 not to mention the rest of my setup i can dial in when i want the wastegate to open, if i tune it in like i have on my high boost with closed wg - boost comes on so fast that not even a chipped k03 can build full boost as fast and beastly 

To give an example, i produce more power at 3000rpm then a k03 :beer:


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

sledge0001 said:


> I will chime in here...
> 
> I have run the following:
> 
> ...


^^^ This guy speaks the truth... just do a proper BT setup and you will be happy, skip the baby turbos:thumbup:


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## O_o (Nov 12, 2009)

It's not magic. There are three ways to make more power: moar boost, moar RPM, and moar engine. Each has its pros and cons, but you've pretty much straight-up said you don't want the first two, so that leaves you with option 3. As a wise man once said, "there's no replacement for displacement".


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## troici'sgti (Aug 24, 2008)

Go big turbo I have a ko4 it is nice for around town driving gives decent power but is still slow compared to a big turbo. I like the ko4 but wish it was a big turbo.


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## sledge0001 (Oct 7, 2007)

troici'sgti said:


> Go big turbo I have a ko4 it is nice for around town driving gives decent power but is still slow compared to a big turbo. I like the ko4 but wish it was a big turbo.


 This is exactly how I felt with my E05B. It was fun but still just not anywhere near the ohhh sh!t hold on type fun that I got with the E2 kit and now the Pagparts kit is just like OMFG this b!tch is bad ass!!


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## iTech (Dec 29, 2008)

A properly built and tuned 28RS is a wonderful car to daily. We absolutely love ours. One thing no one thinks about is what will this car be like in the winter?...I have a k03s chipped with injectors and that thing is all over the place on dry roads. It's twitchy, and is an absolute hand full on a damp surface. The wifes car is so much more pleasant to drive..the boost comes in at a much more manageable , smooth curve. Unlike my chipped 03 that comes on like a freight train and dies @ 5k. I am dreading driving mine in the winter even with snow tires. 

I am kind of in the same situation with my car because I really want a bigger setup but not sure if we really need 2 BT cars in the house. I am kinda leaning towards the frankenturbo set up myself, but that could change..LOL


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## sledge0001 (Oct 7, 2007)

iTech said:


> A properly built and tuned 28RS is a wonderful car to daily. We absolutely love ours. One thing no one thinks about is what will this car be like in the winter?...


 I'm in Cali so my winters are above 50 degrees! :laugh:


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## surfinsk8r (Feb 8, 2010)

This thread is exactly why I haven't gone BT yet. I want to have a setup done right, the first time, just like everyone else of course does. You would think that with the wealth of knowledge that is the 'tex that there would be an easy answer. 

I would like the fun to daily drive that is the K04 with BT hp numbers. If I could get a BT to spool like a K04 I'd be in heaven. 

I already know I want PagParts, I've talked to Arnold a couple times starting about a year ago, and I'm sold on his wealth of knowledge and the feedback I've gotten from people with his kits. 

I can't decide on the turbo though...I originally thought the gt3076r would be what I want the lag to be the same as a K04. GT28? Any recommendations?


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## sledge0001 (Oct 7, 2007)

GT3071R 
\thread 

Pagparts Bottom Mount T3 Flanged Kit... 









Why??? 
It's Stealth Bitches!!!


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## 03redgti (Feb 18, 2006)

sledge0001 said:


> GT3071R
> \thread


 i road in a gti with a 3076r..wasn't that impressed...then road in my buddies 35'rd a4 and then i bought one  but for his power goals a 76 or 71 will be perfect.


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## slickfisher (Oct 16, 2004)

DK_GTI_racer said:


> Build your GR28rs setup right and you can have 350whp and 0 lag compared to k03 chipped


  

I don't think I have ever seen that before. Do you have any graphs or logs showing it?


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## EF9Si (Dec 12, 2003)

28rs here and its a blast to drive!!!


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

iTech said:


> A properly built and tuned 28RS is a wonderful car to daily. We absolutely love ours. One thing no one thinks about is what will this car be like in the winter?...I have a k03s chipped with injectors and that thing is all over the place on dry roads. It's twitchy, and is an absolute hand full on a damp surface. The wifes car is so much more pleasant to drive..the boost comes in at a much more manageable , smooth curve. Unlike my chipped 03 that comes on like a freight train and dies @ 5k. I am dreading driving mine in the winter even with snow tires.
> 
> I am kind of in the same situation with my car because I really want a bigger setup but not sure if we really need 2 BT cars in the house. I am kinda leaning towards the frankenturbo set up myself, but that could change..LOL


 I am kind of in the same situation with my car because I really want a bigger setup but not sure if we really need 2 BT cars in the house. I am kinda leaning towards the frankenturbo set up myself, but that could change..LOL[/QUOTE] 

I cant wait for winter! I call winter "Front Mount Season" lol. it gets cold, but never snows here. i would imagine my 50 trim would be way easier to drive in snow than a chipped k03/k04 setup. also everybody gets on here and reads all this stuff evry1 posts about all diff turbos/turbo kits and get all caught up in the mix. just pick a HP goal, find a kit that you like & fits ur budget, and do it. most of the time you know what you want your car to be, u just gotta buy the parts and get dirty:thumbup: i spent nearly 2 years debating k04, gt2817r, gt3071r, 50 trim, t3s60, after it was all said and done i couldnt be more happy w/ the 50. i wanted a reliable street car, preferably not have to do rods, 330whp to 375whp, non-ball bearing, and a turbo that comes alive in below 4k rpms. 50 trim fit my criteria so i bought it and it's even better than imagined it would be. :thumbup: 22psi will leave 90% of the cars we encounter in the streets in the dust!


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## 03redgti (Feb 18, 2006)

sup tom hows that head holdin up for you, or did u go aeb?


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

^^^ It's holding up gr8 man. i dont think i'm going to go AEB im fine with a stock head. maybe one day i'll get some cams and rods


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## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

slickfisher said:


> I don't think I have ever seen that before. Do you have any graphs or logs showing it?


 I will post the pic directly when i get a chance to it - but if you go down to my last post in this thread you can see an overlay made by a friend of mine with chipped k03s with w/m and 3" exhaust. 

http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=267901


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## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

And as promised the layout he made above my dyno - ko3s turbo on top of my dyno.


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## slickfisher (Oct 16, 2004)

Nice powerband on your APR stg 3. :thumbup: 

If my conversion is right your friends peak torque is a little low compaired to the best K03s' with chip that I've seen and the spool a smidge late. Perhaps the FMIC takes a tick off of spool. 

Nevertheless, your point is well made. 

Did you find that your custom tune/EBC improved spool? 

Also, I notice in your photos that you have a cable style throttle body. Was that OEM or common in Europe? 

Finally, how is your fuel in Europe? Is it not significantly better than our best 93 oct?


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

Fuel in Europe is based on RON, so their highest RON which is usually 98 is the same as our 93 octane: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating 

He has the european DBC motor AGU is it's designation.


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## slickfisher (Oct 16, 2004)

How is idle stabilization accomplished with cable style throttle body? The old idle air control valve or was that a stepper motor on the other side of that throttle body?


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

If you don't want lag you buy a car w/ much more displacement. it's pretty much that simple. I have pretty crappy power until 4k - at 6k the car gets fun, at 7950 I blip the rev limiter and off to the next gear.


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## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

screwball said:


> If you don't want lag you buy a car w/ much more displacement. it's pretty much that simple. I have pretty crappy power until 4k - at 6k the car gets fun, at 7950 I blip the rev limiter and off to the next gear.


 I dont agree with this at all, this is a dyno of Ferrari 360 modena chipped and with better exhaust, it almost has the same whp as me. 

but if you look at when it starts to build power and compare it to mine i have morw WHP in the entire revband, now thats 3,6 v8 engine - so much for displacement. 










Anyways a more clear scan of my dyno. 










anyways yes my car is dbc and the best fuel we have is as mentioned 98 equal to 93 in US. 

I could easily get faster spool or boost climb+more torque by changing the point on the ebc of when to start opening the wg, the way it was set for that dyno is a compromise of fast spool and top end powar, i have found out that to high boost early makes it tap off at the end, but i also found out a way to work around that with the eboost2, just havent tried dynoing it yet with the new settings..


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## screwball (Dec 11, 2001)

ZOMG?!, what on earth was I theenking! APR rules the world!!


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## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

screwball said:


> ZOMG?!, what on earth was I theenking! APR rules the world!!


 Exactly :laugh: 

but i would have said GT28RS+1.8T rules the world, but hey tomato tomato.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

3071 

I have 20psi at 3900rpm, over 400whp(mid) and off throttle driving is effin great, z06's, done, 911's, done, boosted E92 M3's, done. 

30mpg, and beating on it.


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## sledge0001 (Oct 7, 2007)

Vegeta Gti said:


> 3071
> 
> I have 20psi at 3900rpm, over 400whp(mid) and off throttle driving is effin great, z06's, done, 911's, done, boosted E92 M3's, done.
> 
> 30mpg, and beating on it.


 I am right about the same with my 3071.. Only I think I am a tad under 400 (butt dyno) but still can hand it to just about anything on the streets


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## 01gtiaww (Jan 31, 2006)

Ive had k03s chipped, k04-20 and t3/t04e 50 trim and i wish i had never wasted my money and time on the ko3s and k04-20 and just gone straight to BT. When i got my k04-20 i thought it was fast until i buil my t3...lol:thumbup:


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## 031.8wolf (Mar 16, 2010)

01gtiaww said:


> Ive had k03s chipped, k04-20 and t3/t04e 50 trim and i wish i had never wasted my money and time on the ko3s and k04-20 and just gone straight to BT. When i got my k04-20 i thought it was fast until i buil my t3...lol:thumbup:


 

so would it be a good idea to keep my money .i was planning on a apr chip . i reallly want to do a apr stage III+ since its the most complete kit ive seen around. i would go bt but money is also a problem since im still in school. to reply to the thread, i would go bt. i dont yet have one but i would have a better chance beating a g35 with bt than a ko4. plus ive seen ko4 kits for 1500. thats about 1/3 price for a bb bt.


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## 01gtiaww (Jan 31, 2006)

Save your money and do it right ONCE. It's ok to get a chip for the k03sport just make sure you get a chip from a tuner like UNITRONICS, EURODYNE, or REVO which give you the option to upgrade to BT SW in the future without paying full price but rather an upgrade fee.:thumbup:


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## 40rty1.8T (Apr 25, 2010)

There is such thing as a Borg Warner K04 Twin scroll turbo w/ a 36lb wheel that can have a 1.8T make 340-350. There are compressor wheel upgrades for it to that make it into a 41lb compressor wheel. Virtually no lag, quick spool. Ask borg warner, I called them the other day to verify.


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## TheBossQ (Aug 15, 2009)

40rty1.8T said:


> There is such thing as a Borg Warner K04 Twin scroll turbo w/ a 36lb wheel that can have a 1.8T make 340-350. There are compressor wheel upgrades for it to that make it into a 41lb compressor wheel. Virtually no lag, quick spool. Ask borg warner, I called them the other day to verify.


 But at what cost? It seems a custom unit like that nets you comparable results to a 28rs, but you end up with a journal bearing unit that has no pool of users from which to draw real world experience. 

I guess if you just like experimenting, go for it.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

40rty1.8T said:


> There is such thing as a Borg Warner K04 Twin scroll turbo w/ a 36lb wheel that can have a 1.8T make 340-350. There are compressor wheel upgrades for it to that make it into a 41lb compressor wheel. Virtually no lag, quick spool. Ask borg warner, I called them the other day to verify.


 What part of this did you verify with 3K Warner? e.g. what twin scroll turbo do they have which is suited to the 1.8T engine? What series is the "36lb" wheel? What series is the "41lb" unit? At what efficiency mark are these ratings based? Does this 41lb-wheel, twin-scroll, no-lag turbocharger for a 1.8T engine have a name? A part number?


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## Cryser (Sep 9, 2009)

I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing a K04 framed turbo is available in a twin scroll configuration.... when does this spool at 1000 rpms? a part number would be nice.


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## TheBossQ (Aug 15, 2009)

slappy_dunbar said:


> What part of this did you verify with 3K Warner? e.g. what twin scroll turbo do they have which is suited to the 1.8T engine? What series is the "36lb" wheel? What series is the "41lb" unit? At what efficiency mark are these ratings based? Does this 41lb-wheel, twin-scroll, no-lag turbocharger for a 1.8T engine have a name? A part number?


 Well you took Frankenturbo, and Blowzilla is already taken. How about Turbosaurus Rex? Or Turb-Kong?


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## 40rty1.8T (Apr 25, 2010)

This is the turbo.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

^^^ man that aint even close to bolt-on! LOL


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

TheBossQ said:


> Well you took Frankenturbo, and Blowzilla is already taken. How about Turbosaurus Rex? Or Turb-Kong?


 Laughing out loud! Blowzilla! Dammit, its taken?!


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

^^^^ yea i think one of the GT40 series garrett turbos have that nickname LOL:thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

40rty1.8T said:


> This is the turbo.


 K04-59 for the Pontiac Solstice


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## 40rty1.8T (Apr 25, 2010)

slappy_dunbar said:


> K04-59 for the Pontiac Solstice


 

The picture that you provided shows a few differences in the turbos. If you look at yours, the housing is shaped a little differently. Also, on your turbo you don't have a built in diverter valve. 


Thought its not bolt on these tubos are relatively cheap and with a new manifold and downpipe you would be making a lot more power that a k03s or k04 could ever make. I'm going to use this for my future setup.


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## Cryser (Sep 9, 2009)

With the amount your going to pay for that type of custom manifold I just don't see the reason for it, your still going to be restricted at the top end because of the small frame of the housing, sure you'llb e getting faster spool but really how much faster do you want to spool in a FWD car. 

Anyone got a compressor map for that turbo? it might be worth it but at first glance doesn't seem like it.


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## 40rty1.8T (Apr 25, 2010)




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## nuff said (Nov 22, 2011)

*Ko4 turbo with big turbo numbers*

Cake and eat it too? Turbo direct makes a 400 hp ko4r and is working on a k04rs that makes 440 hp . Their prices are the best.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

nuff said said:


> Cake and eat it too? Turbo direct makes a 400 hp ko4r and is working on a k04rs that makes 440 hp . Their prices are the best.


say what?

a K04-02x which can make 400+bhp

where? links.... data.....


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

badger5 said:


> say what?
> 
> a K04-02x which can make 400+bhp
> 
> where? links.... data.....


http://www.turbodirect.co.za/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=786&Itemid=60


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Well if you want to drink the Kool-Aid then go for it.

Sent from my LG-D801 using Tapatalk


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

warranty225cpe said:


> http://www.turbodirect.co.za/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=786&Itemid=60


First and foremost, this is a totally different engine :laugh:


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

18T_BT said:


> First and foremost, this is a totally different engine :laugh:


Yeah, saw that. Posted the first link I saw from them. Didn't have a chance to read it before I posted. Stupid work :facepalm:


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Here you go. I had to dig a little..

http://www.turbodirect.co.za/site/i...ent&view=category&layout=blog&id=17&Itemid=43


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

not on Frankenturbo but I run a hybrid and when I crank up the boost I'm just as fast (if not faster) than an APR stage3 for far less $$$. Plus boost response makes a great DD with enough power to have fun. 

I wouldn't go BT on a FWD platform anyhow unless it was a drag car. If I had a TT or A4q, Quattro of any kind I'd be all for a quick spooling BT setup. 

The little snail makes almost 300whp (with all the mods I've got) on Pump and a hair over on E85 so it's got a little wiggle room to play with. 

The only downside I really see is you're limited. Once you hit the point where IAT's and EGT are excessive you shouldn't go further, and the exhaust is restrictive. I recommend anyone running a hybrid either have it machined or spend some quality time porting it out just to give a little break on the temps if anything.

It's really all about what you want and need from your car.


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## baifantoma (Feb 23, 2013)

Hi, I am also planing to go BT or hybrid, these are my power requests : My m8 got an Volvo 850 t5 2.3l with td04hl19t turbo remaped and volvo 850r clutch kit and it totaly losses grip in 1st, 2nd and realy goes mad on revs its a realy nice feeling driving it but I still love my Skoda Octavia Rs and ofc 1.8t but I want it to go something like his beast. I will be guessing he got 280-300whp. What turbos, kits do you think I should go for .. I mean I live in Sweden and its hard for me to keep in touch with all those shops u got there and I think the taxes will make the price a lot bigger than its for you.


ps : I'm not so into opening the engine to do rods and my budget is not so high to leave it at shop just for doing rods .


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

I started with F23 and pretty much ran 18psi right out of the box (aside from a progressive break-in) and loved it. Took it to the track and had plenty of fun with it. 

Although I went with the Frankenturbo to have a factory set up with the +300whp hiding in there, Also wanted the quick spool to keep it autox competitive since there are no road courses in my area, but It was short lived and still lacked the top end I wanted. It was fun off the line and all but it was kind of irritating as they were so eager to spin on anything less then awesome/expensive tires or in the rain then they just spin...spin...and spin. (nothing against FT, just a hybrid thing as we all should know:laugh

So I went BT, but I set it up with the purpose of quick spool but much more top end. Even if I cant have both, Ill certainly try:laugh:

What I found is that shifting the powerband to the right a little made the car much more drivable. Some of the excessive TQ down low was traded for more power and my powerband is also much smoother now and not so violent with my FWD platform. But could also be better served with a AWD platform where the power is handled better. Then again I would LOVE to swap my current BT set up into something with AWD cause the tires still spin, just not right away:laugh::thumbup: 

Again, this is the direction I wanted to go with my car but I figure I should share my experience.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

300 whp for 1000 rpm on a hybrid is not the same as 300+ whp for 4000 rpm that some big turbo setups can deliver.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

nuff said said:


> Cake and eat it too? Turbo direct makes a 400 hp ko4r and is working on a k04rs that makes 440 hp . Their prices are the best.


LIES


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

warranty225cpe said:


> http://www.turbodirect.co.za/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=786&Itemid=60


like I said... K04-02x?

This is'nt one.. Its K04-064 TFSi/FSi based turbo... different animal


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> 300 whp for 1000 rpm on a hybrid is not the same as 300+ whp for 4000 rpm that some big turbo setups can deliver.


:thumbup: The dissapointment looms very large when they are pulled on by an NA vehicle up top... Seen it happen on gobs of boost, timing and chemical I/C that pulled on a modded NA M3 by 4 car lengths that ended up being half a football field upstairs by the bimmer. I have a stage 2 B7. Its lively down low and quick. Seems fast until an Acura TL obliterates me up top. Cant see myself throwing the kitchen sink at something for 50 real world whp. Cant wait to put on the bigger snail...


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## WiKKiDTT (Aug 13, 2009)

GTX2867


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> :thumbup: The dissapointment looms very large when they are pulled on by an NA vehicle up top... Seen it happen on gobs of boost, timing and chemical I/C that pulled on a modded NA M3 by 4 car lengths that ended up being half a football field upstairs by the bimmer. I have a stage 2 B7. Its lively down low and quick. Seems fast until an Acura TL obliterates me up top. Cant see myself throwing the kitchen sink at something for 50 real world whp. Cant wait to put on the bigger snail...


Sorry Arnold, but IMO that's like comparing a sprinter to marathon runner. They each will shine in their own discipline and arena. Just like you painted, I can think of many conditions where the opposite would also be true. What I think we (more experienced members) should be telling people is that it all depends on the use, chose according to what you plan to use the car for... But then again the ones asking that kind of questions most likely don't even know why they're building.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Sorry Arnold, but IMO that's like comparing a sprinter to marathon runner. They each will shine in their own discipline and arena. Just like you painted, I can think of many conditions where the opposite would also be true. What I think we (more experienced members) should be telling people is that it all depends on the use, chose according to what you plan to use the car for... But then again the ones asking that kind of questions most likely don't even know why they're building.


Truthopcorn:


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Sorry Arnold, but IMO that's like comparing a sprinter to marathon runner. They each will shine in their own discipline and arena. Just like you painted, I can think of many conditions where the opposite would also be true. What I think we (more experienced members) should be telling people is that it all depends on the use, chose according to what you plan to use the car for... But then again the ones asking that kind of questions most likely don't even know why they're building.


At the end of the day, power just takes over and the ability for the engine to breathe. I deal with this on a weekly basis on my commutes. . Not a lot of hairpin turns. Just traffic to navigate around where downshifting and low end torque comes into play here (closed course of course all the way home ). Low end torque counts for alot in certain situations but it doesnt take much to overcome a setup that has little upstairs in comparison. When you slow down at speed and downshift, even a large setup doesnt need a ton of time to respool and you can actually feel it pull like a freight train upon that respool instead of that vague feeling of boost on a small setup that is being choked up top.

This is not to say that short powerband and low end torque doesnt have its uses. On a FWD vehicle (as most of the enthusiast are on), its even more beneficial to have the power come on later. As much as most enjoy the low end torque, most ppl that have experienced both that I know of, prefer the linear and less peaky power delivery. Especially on a daily driver. When talking BT, we dont need to lump it all in GT35R-like response category. There are 'BT' setups that respond almost as quickly as a K04.

I'm always talking about the everyday guy that isnt necessarily killing the car in the 1st 2 gears. I find most like to stretch things out on the highway in the upper gears. Its safer then ripping it in traffic or the side streets...


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> I'm always talking about the everyday guy that isnt necessarily killing the car in the 1st 2 gears. I find most like to stretch things out on the highway in the upper gears. Its safer then ripping it in traffic or the side streets...


this x100. i hate ripping it in 1st gear actually. i try not to get on it until im out of 2nd  sometimes just cant help snappin in 2nd a little tho. 

Also, I need to order something from you Arnold i'll be shooting you a PM tomorrow :beer:


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> At the end of the day, power just takes over and the ability for the engine to breathe. I deal with this on a weekly basis on my commutes. . Not a lot of hairpin turns. Just traffic to navigate around where downshifting and low end torque comes into play here (closed course of course all the way home ). Low end torque counts for alot in certain situations but it doesnt take much to overcome a setup that has little upstairs in comparison. When you slow down at speed and downshift, even a large setup doesnt need a ton of time to respool and you can actually feel it pull like a freight train upon that respool instead of that vague feeling of boost on a small setup that is being choked up top.
> 
> This is not to say that short powerband and low end torque doesnt have its uses. On a FWD vehicle (as most of the enthusiast are on), its even more beneficial to have the power come on later. As much as most enjoy the low end torque, most ppl that have experienced both that I know of, prefer the linear and less peaky power delivery. Especially on a daily driver. When talking BT, we dont need to lump it all in GT35R-like response category. There are 'BT' setups that respond almost as quickly as a K04.
> 
> I'm always talking about the everyday guy that isnt necessarily killing the car in the 1st 2 gears. I find most like to stretch things out on the highway in the upper gears. Its safer then ripping it in traffic or the side streets...


I am going to throw this in here just for ****s and giggles..
small frame turbo. hybrid k04-023, stroker 20v, largeport head, 80% meth wmi, 99ul Vpower










at this boost however


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

badger5 said:


> I am going to throw this in here just for ****s and giggles..
> small frame turbo. hybrid k04-023, stroker 20v, largeport head, 80% meth wmi, 99ul Vpower
> 
> 
> ...


Bill, a 71r with the wastegate shut and out of the equation with your list of mods would have that power plus 60 to the wheels with much less backpressure. The true difference is the disparity after 6000rpms , less chance of ring flutter, preignition, intake reversion, etc. When its all said and done, its the wrong tool for the job. This is the reason why there are different sized turbos and a thing called turbo sizing.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Bill, a 71r with the wastegate shut and out of the equation with your list of mods would have that power plus 60 to the wheels with much less backpressure. The true difference is the disparity after 6000rpms , less chance of ring flutter, preignition, intake reversion, etc. When its all said and done, its the wrong tool for the job. This is the reason why there are different sized turbos and a thing called turbo sizing.


You honestly dont think I know this Arnold...?? lmao
YOU know what I run personally.. lol.. you originally supplied it to me, since rebuilt with uprated bearings, but it rocks for what I want, but in a different way to how these small frame units can be persuaded to perform these days.


Not everyone feels the need to rev past 6krpm  

I throw it out there demonstrating small frame also can throw out some unexpected figures...
Hybrids inside.. billet comp wheels, larger turbines........ NOT the K04 you think they are other than fitment.

eg.. on sensible level of boost on our smallport lupo 1.4-1.5bar we now see 372bhp/320lbft from its hybrid k04 and high flow exhaust manifold @ 855'c EGTs at turbo too.

makes small GT's questionable in comparison to me.

I know I am tired of garrett bearing quality.. ball bearings which fall apart are'nt what I expect, and see more and more of.. Cheap ass manufacture sold at "quality" prices... Sux.. I wont touch garretts without bearing race upgrades these days.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

I'm only responding to this as it is a comparison thread. I know that you know this bill. Hence why Im surprised that you woruld post that. If I hog out a k series turbo enough, I would probably be able to get surprising numbers beyond its efficiency ratings. That shouldn't be surprising as far as taking a glory pull on a dyno. I've made 400whp on stock rods. But I'm not going to advocate that its good

I'm sure you service these things after long term use. My observations on small frame turbos on high boost and timing is that it puts alot of stress on the pistons, rings and exhaust valves/guides. You'd have to go absolutely ballistic on a big turbo setup to achieve the same level of wear/tear in this particular area. Its mostly a function of backpressure and subsequent pressures that leak past the rings and in between rings. Its the kind of temps that the exhaust valves and guides are absorbing up top. Again, this is from not using the right tool for the job. Testing limits is fine but trying to make this into a general rule is deceptive.

As for the GT series comparison. A t25 housing absolutely dwarfs a K-series housing. It will flow better. The exducer on the NS111 wheel is bigger so it will offer less restriction. Not too many ppl pushes this frame beyond its intended purpose (big displacement, high octane, cams, head, wmi, 30+psi) so lets not get ahead of ourselves. On one of my older setups and cast 2871r wheel, a forum member made over 360whp some years ago on 26psi boost levels on a pretty standard engine (100oct, stock block, small port head). As you can see, it holds it pretty well... With displacement and head work I'd say over 400whp would be a breeze..










Not sure why you're having troubles with Garrett's GT line. Its pretty drama-free here. Years ago, when it was first introduced, I do admit that there was a teething process. I distribute just about every manufacturer's product and I put Garrett product on top of that heap. One reason why I base my manufacturing around them rather then others. The small frame K-series turbos dont have a ton of rotational mass so they are easy on the bearing and thrust system under normal use. The larger BW turbos havent fared as well. It may be a top mount thing


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

To be fair, Bill did say he was tossing that out there for sh_ts and giggles. Not advocating it or saying it's the norm...


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Bill and I have gone back and forth before. I respect his views but will comment on them as he does with me. If you read between the lines, we have a sound understanding on how this all works and are basically on the same page


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Bill and I have gone back and forth before. I respect his views but will comment on them as he does with me. If you read between the lines, we have a sound understanding on how this all works and are basically on the same page


yep.. :thumbup:


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Twopnt016v said:


> To be fair, Bill did say he was tossing that out there for sh_ts and giggles. Not advocating it or saying it's the norm...


yea, I think Arnold knows me well enough now...

Provocative..

However, with the latest hybrids and manifold we are achieving figures which compare directly to gt28 sized turbos... that cant be ignored. I know I'm not.
and its with decent egt's also... 855'c @ turbo is less than we often see on stock k04 remapped cars some 80+bhp less. The inlets on these are not 40mm std size, they are quite a little larger and this is most certainly assisting in the figures, flow vs temp and back pressure scenario which is the common issue on hybrid stock framed type turbos


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Bill and I have gone back and forth before. I respect his views but will comment on them as he does with me. If you read between the lines, we have a sound understanding on how this all works and are basically on the same page





badger5 said:


> yea, I think Arnold knows me well enough now...
> 
> Provocative..
> 
> ...


Yeah I can read between the lines and see what's going on.:thumbup:
I respect both of you guys and I also understand the hybrid vs BT debate very well myself.:beer::beer:


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

I think hybrids are great for entry to mid level budget users/racers. Once simply cannot ignore the "Dollarower" ratio. Any they can be TONS of fun, and pushed to BT limits with the proper mods.

That said a BT set up can achieve similar #s with less stress on the overall system, have much more head room, but can easily cost 2x as much.

It *REALLY* depends on end user :beer:


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Yes, a bit more components are required for a proper BT system. From what I see on the hybrids, you are using these setups outside the norm. Pushing them pretty hard to achieve a level of power. You do hit that 'wall' though eventually as you cannot fight the physics that limits you on flow area. Stuffing a large wheel into a small housing alleviates some pressures down low but its not what one would call a balanced setup. I've done this in the past with medium sized cores and T25 housings through some custom machine work. Made some good peak power but struggled to hold it. Boost control suffered greatly as well. BT setups (in its many variations and sizes) target goals more sensibly when you are targeting over 300whp. Keeps combustion sensible and more easily hits your goals without the add-ons. You can play with engine VE's and other things to raise the ceiling as you go without worrying about choking your system with the proper setup to make gobs more power and a sustained powerband. In the end, it also has proven more reliable. Most ppl dont see what a shop sees but I've taken off enough cracked or warped housings/manifolds on these small setups to know that either A) their manufacturing quality is not up to snuff B) highly stressed C) a combination of A & B.

In the end, both have their intended uses but to compare the vast levels of BT to a very finite selection of bolt on stock frame setups is not what I would call science.


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

You can buy a smaller frame turbo, stress it for a while and make much less power than a true BT setup does at lower stress levels. Once the smaller frame setup fails you can replace broken parts and still make less power than a true BT setup now for the same cost. 

If it was me I'd save up for a true BT setup and run it at lower boost levels. 20-25psi.


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## AmIdYfReAk (Nov 8, 2006)

I agree, i'm overbuilding my setup for my HP goal..

That way everything is not as stressed and will be reliable.

However, Hp goals never stay the same, ever....


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

AmIdYfReAk said:


> I agree, i'm overbuilding my setup for my HP goal..
> 
> That way everything is not as stressed and will be reliable.
> 
> However, Hp goals never stay the same, ever....


Oh yes, it's easy to get the turbo fever. I know I have it for reals! 

Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


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## [email protected] Performance (Jul 20, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> :thumbup: The dissapointment looms very large when they are pulled on by an NA vehicle up top... Seen it happen on gobs of boost, timing and chemical I/C that pulled on a modded NA M3 by 4 car lengths that ended up being half a football field upstairs by the bimmer. I have a stage 2 B7. Its lively down low and quick. Seems fast until an Acura TL obliterates me up top. Cant see myself throwing the kitchen sink at something for 50 real world whp. Cant wait to put on the bigger snail...


The embarrassing truth about how my BT TDI gets obliterated by SUV's once i shift into third 
The only thing that makes me feel better about it is the incredible MPG averages I get.

Both stock frame and BT setups have their own place. The stock turbo frame units are more affordable than going big turbo and usually its more than enough for a lot of people.
Big Turbo is the way to go if you will be doing drag racing on crazy street pulls and want those big numbers.
I don't run more than 22-23psi on pump gas on any of my turbo kits to avoid any stress on the engine. For people running E85, I can turn up the boost without worrying about EGT's and thermal stress as much.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

TDI's are the ultimate in feel fast but go slow. Haha


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## AmIdYfReAk (Nov 8, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> TDI's are the ultimate in feel fast but go slow. Haha


 

I'm 99% done building a ALH for a new daily to replace my stage 2 1.8T, Hopefully that's not the case...



Gulfstream said:


> Oh yes, it's easy to get the turbo fever. I know I have it for reals!
> 
> Sent from my SM-T310 using Tapatalk


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Enjoyed your build!


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Yes, a bit more components are required for a proper BT system. From what I see on the hybrids, you are using these setups outside the norm. Pushing them pretty hard to achieve a level of power. You do hit that 'wall' though eventually as you cannot fight the physics that limits you on flow area. Stuffing a large wheel into a small housing alleviates some pressures down low but its not what one would call a balanced setup. I've done this in the past with medium sized cores and T25 housings through some custom machine work. Made some good peak power but struggled to hold it. Boost control suffered greatly as well. BT setups (in its many variations and sizes) target goals more sensibly when you are targeting over 300whp. Keeps combustion sensible and more easily hits your goals without the add-ons. You can play with engine VE's and other things to raise the ceiling as you go without worrying about choking your system with the proper setup to make gobs more power and a sustained powerband. In the end, it also has proven more reliable. Most ppl dont see what a shop sees but I've taken off enough cracked or warped housings/manifolds on these small setups to know that either A) their manufacturing quality is not up to snuff B) highly stressed C) a combination of A & B.
> 
> In the end, both have their intended uses but to compare the vast levels of BT to a very finite selection of bolt on stock frame setups is not what I would call science.


well actually.. Zero issues on things like boost control... I dont have any at all when I map them. Not all "mappers" are as experienced on how to deal with turbos out of the norm.. "Canned" tunes from software suppliers not tailored to the 'Exact hardware' is where these issues propogate. One map does not fit all in these hybrids.

I will mention "tractable power" at this point. Most of the guys are fwd... and although big horse power figures sounds "great" applying the power to the road, its a different matter completely. I have had gear based boost developed to help with the power to traction deficit, which goes a long way to helping, but you can have too much power for delivering the high powers..

The hybrids we are using most recently are large bore not far short of T25 surface area, but remain k04 packaged.. They do seem to be punching above their weight with the billet comp wheels and larger turbines, without suffering from high egts.. Our lupo has matched a GT3071/0.64 T25 setup in terms of power and ran lower egt's also... 

BT's are just that big turbos... and on small displacement motors, they will want to rev.,.... and to do that with reliabilty you need a higher build spec top end..

Each have their merits.. I think the hybrids have moved a lot closer to the BTs tho.. much closer.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

Gulfstream said:


> You can buy a smaller frame turbo, stress it for a while and make much less power than a true BT setup does at lower stress levels. Once the smaller frame setup fails you can replace broken parts and still make less power than a true BT setup now for the same cost.
> 
> If it was me I'd save up for a true BT setup and run it at lower boost levels. 20-25psi.


I am running 23psi for 372bhp on our k04 hybrid.. I had to run a GT3071 similar level for same output... but GT30 ran hotter egts!


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

The 3071r in the .64ar housing is an ill conceived idea. Its a cut down 60mm wheel that overwhelms the T25 housing. I've also custom machined a full 60mm profile in the housings and its, naturally, worse. I wouldnt use that combination as any kind of baseline. The housings are built for the smaller 53.8mm wheel. Having said that, I've easily made 360whp (which is roughly 415bhp) on regular pump gas and a completely stock motor on a decent tune on T25 configs. 460whp on 26psi / water/meth on my billet 71R and .72AR housing (T3 based). 345whp just recently on 18psi, straight out of the box... Its consistent without any 'tricks'. Hybrids may be somewhat close to the smallest of BT's but not even close to the mid sized setups. Especially on the high end.


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## WiKKiDTT (Aug 13, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> The 3071r in the .64ar housing is an ill conceived idea. Its a cut down 60mm wheel that overwhelms the T25 housing. I've also custom machined a full 60mm profile in the housings and its, naturally, worse. I wouldnt use that combination as any kind of baseline. The housings are built for the smaller 53.8mm wheel. Having said that, I've easily made 360whp (which is roughly 415bhp) on regular pump gas and a completely stock motor on a decent tune on T25 configs. 460whp on 26psi / water/meth on my billet 71R and .72AR housing (T3 based). 345whp just recently on 18psi, straight out of the box... Its consistent without any 'tricks'. Hybrids may be somewhat close to the smallest of BT's but not even close to the mid sized setups. Especially on the high end.


I agree all the way with this. I had a hybrid "FrankenTURD" and thought it wasn't bad until I jumped in my buddies BT R32 and thought wtf was I thinking for buying that turbo. The car was quick and was fun to drive but it always left me with wanting more. 90% of the people with hybrids won't see these high numbers because of the lack of tuning available for these turbo's. The only person I know that offers one is Gonzo but we know that track record and how good is it. By the time you pay for tuning and injectors and all the other odds and ends you are $1000-$2500 away from a BT build that will outlast any of these hybrids and also have a company that supports them. I'll put my GTX2867 up against any hybrid on road coarse or 1/4 mile and be the king every time. if you wanna go fast you go big not small. And in order to get these numbers on the hybrid the pressure is 28-30 psi. Which means these turbos are just grenades with there pins pulled ready to blow


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

badger5 said:


> I am running 23psi for 372bhp on our k04 hybrid.. I had to run a GT3071 similar level for same output... but GT30 ran hotter egts!


I ran the K04-23 in my ol Cupra R 225 BAM motor and had custom map that made 255bhp at 26psi and 1000+ EGT's. All possible mods done. My true BT made 480whp at 25psi on the same dyno. That's like 525bhp at 25psi comparable to your 372bhp K04 hybrid.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

WiKKiDTT said:


> I agree all the way with this. I had a hybrid "FrankenTURD" and thought it wasn't bad until I jumped in my buddies BT R32 and thought wtf was I thinking for buying that turbo. The car was quick and was fun to drive but it always left me with wanting more. 90% of the people with hybrids won't see these high numbers because of the lack of tuning available for these turbo's. The only person I know that offers one is Gonzo but we know that track record and how good is it. By the time you pay for tuning and injectors and all the other odds and ends you are $1000-$2500 away from a BT build that will outlast any of these hybrids and also have a company that supports them. I'll put my GTX2867 up against any hybrid on road coarse or 1/4 mile and be the king every time. if you wanna go fast you go big not small. And in order to get these numbers on the hybrid the pressure is 28-30 psi. Which means these turbos are just grenades with there pins pulled ready to blow
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Interesting perspective! As you know, I ran my stock turbo at 30+ psi for at least 4 racing seasons before it finally died. It's easy to say the small frame was a ticking bomb at those levels, but the thing was also 13 years old when it finally happened, I was pushing it at 37 psi, did not have an oil change in 5+ race days, and was running without water injection and an AWIC being overtaxed due to the extreme ambient heat while being hotlapped that day. To give people an idea of the kind of stress that was being generated to finally kill one of these little bastards, the logs showed that I was sitting on the 7100 rpm rev limiter for 3-4 seconds at the time throughout my runs in consecutive sections. If someone abuses and put these things to the test, it's me - I'm about to run a hybrid and it'll be operating at much lower stress level than before to make power. I'm also adding an oil cooler and better oil baffling to stop oil starvation in high G cornering, I can say with the outmost confidence that even in my extreme environment, it will be everything but a grenade ready to blow. 


As I mentioned before, it's all about the use you have for the car. I understand that most cars here are FWD, traction-limited, and probably can't put lots of early TQ to good use. I would never tell someone building a drag car that a small frame turbo is the answer, but it's illogical to say bigger is always the solution when there are situations like autocross, hillclimb, or some short or technical road courses where using a smaller turbo will net an advantage. If bigger is always better for performance, why stop at a 2867r and not go with the biggest offering? Simply because it's about sizing the turbo for the application. You said that you'll put your GTX against any hybrid on a road course and be king every time, I don't know where you're located, but I wish we were in the same region so we could put that statement to the test on a technical track that's not dominated by endless/boring front straights (who knows, maybe you are within 5 hours and we can do this friendly challenge for the community).


The epic smoke show that happened when my small frame trooper finally let go from all the abuse!


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

my PAG GTX2867 vband set up is nearly as snappy as the Hybrid was. As soon as the car seemed ready to go with the hybrid, it was out of the power band and time to shift. 

The BT set up made a baseline of 312whp/250wtq @ a measly 16psi on a completely base Maestro File:thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Glad you're enjoying it!. 312whp on 16psi is enough for alot of ppl on the streets and would prob last forever. As for Marcus, your brand of racing is exactly what what these things bolt on frame made for. You may be just testing the limits of adhesion only at some point. You'll be surprised at how fast some of these 'bt's' spool and recover. BTW, I think WIkki also put mileage on it as a daily driver, not just race days. You put 30+psi on any turbo for an extended period, it means a quick death although the bb turbos take a bit longer as the technology is built around superior shaft speeds and ramping up velocity


Small turbines and light/flow-ey comp wheels balanced with nice sized housings have come a long way. In some instances, and under a specific range in the low end, you'll have more power under the curve then a bolt on turbo. On some of these smaller GTX wheels (specifically the 60 and 63) the spool is outstanding and builds plenty of torque down low without that huge penalty upstairs. I'm designing a proper T25 internally gated housing so there's not so much of a drop off upstairs and without the laziness of the 86


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> You said that you'll put your GTX against any hybrid on a road course and be king every time, I don't know where you're located, but I wish we were in the same region so we could put that statement to the test on a technical track that's not dominated by endless/boring front straights (who knows, maybe you are within 5 hours and we can do this friendly challenge for the community).


Lime Rock is a good test track for all around power


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## Gulfstream (Jul 28, 2010)

Go to 7:15. The Audi S3 I pass is running a 28RS at 30psi. Me a billet 3071R at 22psi and long tdi gears.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

DeckManDubs said:


> Lime Rock is a good test track for all around power


Noah, we both know as track junkies that nobody claiming that bigger turbos are always better for road racing will ever pick the rock to try to prove their case. Tracks like Lime Rock, New Hampshire international raceway, Laguna Seca, that favors all around power will equalize any big snail long straight "advantage", but it's hard to explain it to people that don't do it like we do. For some reason there is this notion that our cars (with small responsive turbos) are only suitable for autocross, little do they know how much we humble "superior" forced induction cars on the right road course with our baby snails. I hear people say this or that BT is as responsive as the small frame turbo was, but when you take it to a situation were response is really needed, they always fall short. You and I have that have been around that block too many times, and know what each is capable and suitable for, hopefully the people looking to make a decision can read between the lines and not follow the 'go as big as you can afford' trend.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Noah, we both know as track junkies that nobody claiming that bigger turbos are always better for road racing will ever pick the rock to try to prove their case. Tracks like Lime Rock, New Hampshire international raceway, Laguna Seca, that favors all around power will equalize any big snail long straight "advantage", but it's hard to explain it to people that don't do it like we do. For some reason there is this notion that our cars (with small responsive turbos) are only suitable for autocross, little do they know how much we humble "superior" forced induction cars on the right road course with our baby snails. I hear people say this or that BT is as responsive as the small frame turbo was, but when you take it to a situation were response is really needed, they always fall short. You and I have that have been around that block too many times, and know what each is capable and suitable for, hopefully the people looking to make a decision can read between the lines and not follow the 'go as big as you can afford' trend.


Agreed. 

Reliability, Reliability and Reliability so that that anyone looking to improve their driving skill can spend more time driving than wrenching.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Uhh, you seem to think that I'm not around hybrid turbos (taking a passive aggressive stab at me)... I've probably tuned, driven, installed, uninstalled, repaired, more then most on here. I have a base on the statements that I make. They are not useless, never claimed that they were. But look again at the topic of this thread... You've laid down a foundation as to why you like them... I've laid down a foundation where they are incomparable to 'bt' in many areas... Have you ever driven or set up a BT setup on a 1.8T driving the course that you do?


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## WiKKiDTT (Aug 13, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Interesting perspective! As you know, I ran my stock turbo at 30+ psi for at least 4 racing seasons before it finally died. It's easy to say the small frame was a ticking bomb at those levels, but the thing was also 13 years old when it finally happened, I was pushing it at 37 psi, did not have an oil change in 5+ race days, and was running without water injection and an AWIC being overtaxed due to the extreme ambient heat while being hotlapped that day. To give people an idea of the kind of stress that was being generated to finally kill one of these little bastards, the logs showed that I was sitting on the 7100 rpm rev limiter for 3-4 seconds at the time throughout my runs in consecutive sections. If someone abuses and put these things to the test, it's me - I'm about to run a hybrid and it'll be operating at much lower stress level than before to make power. I'm also adding an oil cooler and better oil baffling to stop oil starvation in high G cornering, I can say with the outmost confidence that even in my extreme environment, it will be everything but a grenade ready to blow.
> 
> 
> As I mentioned before, it's all about the use you have for the car. I understand that most cars here are FWD, traction-limited, and probably can't put lots of early TQ to good use. I would never tell someone building a drag car that a small frame turbo is the answer, but it's illogical to say bigger is always the solution when there are situations like autocross, hillclimb, or some short or technical road courses where using a smaller turbo will net an advantage. If bigger is always better for performance, why stop at a 2867r and not go with the biggest offering? Simply because it's about sizing the turbo for the application. You said that you'll put your GTX against any hybrid on a road course and be king every time, I don't know where you're located, but I wish we were in the same region so we could put that statement to the test on a technical track that's not dominated by endless/boring front straights (who knows, maybe you are within 5 hours and we can do this friendly challenge for the community).
> ...


Cincinnati ohio and also I dominate in my XP class for auto cross. I live in second gear at 3800 rpm which is the sweat spot in my car also now I have more power to pull me thru the turn 

I am awd also. 

Half the people involved in this are wanting to go fast not quick. Also almost everyone on this FOURM has had one issue or more with there hybrid be it tuning,bushing failure,waste gate failure, oil leak etc. etc. and garret or any real turbo company stands behind there product because they know there product is solid. Look at your build your fixing problems before installing it. I don't have to modify my BT so **** works right because of design flaws. And if I wanna go bigger I can just buy the next step up and bolt it up and I'm done. Plus ball bearing turbos are where it's at not thrust bearings. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WiKKiDTT (Aug 13, 2009)

I drive my BT cars daily and put mileage on my setups. And with over 50+ autox that only puts about 500 miles a year on my car. I'm also running full interior and everything. Sleeper with all factory options still installed and working. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Uhh, you seem to think that I'm not around hybrid turbos (taking a passive aggressive stab at me)... I've probably tuned, driven, installed, uninstalled, repaired, more then most on here. I have a base on the statements that I make. They are not useless, never claimed that they were. But look again at the topic of this thread... You've laid down a foundation as to why you like them... I've laid down a foundation where they are incomparable to 'bt' in many areas... Have you ever driven or set up a BT setup on a 1.8T driving the course that you do?


Arnold, I don't know why would you read/think that I'm taking at stab at you. I respect your knowledge and experience! What I responded to, were the ideas that every small frame turbo is unreliable or a ticking bomb when asked to make decent power - and that 'BT' is always the solution even in certain Motorsport conditions where they do not necessarily carry an overall advantage. 

To answer your question, I have set up and driven a BT-powered car in what you're considering my discipline (although I have more time and experience road racing). A perfect example is another AWD Audi TT with similar suspension (member DougLobue on the forums), we took turns in each other's cars at Waterfest. Although his car had a solid 500+ whp that can be held to redline (running a PTE 5857 on E85), we both could do a lot more with the turbo that could dig the car out of turns with big TQ way low in the rev range (300+ WTQ available before 3k). Like Wikkid was saying he does locally in autocross, you can be somewhat fast with a big snail, but there is always a perfect tool for a job (nobody is going to tell a drag car to stick a small frame hybrid in their bay to get the best result in the 1/4 mile).


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Hybrids may be somewhat close to the smallest of BT's but not even close to the mid sized setups. Especially on the high end.


I dont think that comparison was being made Arnold.. not by me anyhows..

However, the current latest BBT hybrids we're playing with now punch well into anything GT2xx based making them for me obsolete.

the T25 3071 is indeed a pile of poop... nasty thing.


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

WiKKiDTT said:


> Plus ball bearing turbos are where it's at not thrust bearings.


Well, Actually no Garrett ball bearing parts suk.. Big Time

Several bearing race failure of them here.. Utter shyte.
I will only touch garretts I order built with meal cage upgrades now.. Plastic cages is plain stupid! and cheap ass manufacture sold as "quality" premium brand... It is'nt..


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

No problem Max. I didnt take it seriously. Anyways, the reason I had anything to say in this thread about hybrids is because there's a comparison being asked. I guess the answer can be as vague as the question. Most ppl are going to be incline to thinking how the hybrid (god, how I dislike that term) is going to stack up to a large frame turbo system rather then the other way around. Bill and I bantered about peak power which can be misleading when you're talking about comparing the two as larger frame turbos tend to make it easier and hold it or even build up longer or higher in the rev range without the consequence of restriction (This of course is relative). Whereas small frame bolt on setups tend to peter out early (the power curve would usually look like a small rolling hill while the torque curve peaks sharply and then you generally would have a precipitous drop). This is mostly due to A) relatively small turbines and tight scrolled housings that are designed to generate a specific amount of energy early to ramp up the shaft speed so the comp can create positive pressure early in the powerband. B) cannot sustain this up high as the VE of the engine increases which invokes backpressure which in turn slows down flow paths. (also note that backpressure doesnt necessarily mean that your egt's will skyrocket, although it eventually correlates). I'll always look at this problem from an engineering perspective and not so much as a grassroots motorsports guy. This invariably and ultimately ends up using or designing the right tool for the job. Now in your case, perhaps you are using the right turbo but if your only larger frame turbo experience is a 5857 at your event, then I can assure you that you've been misled. A GTX2863 or 67 would absolutely maul that thing in terms of response and low end torque. A GTX2860, even worse... On an internally gated 2867, on a bone stock engine with rods, we've managed 377whp on 21psi and pump gas rather easily. I wouldnt quite go as far as to say your bolt on turbos make these things obsolete, Bill 

Bill, I dont know why you are having so many problems with Garrett DBB product. I have and still run other manufacturer's product (MHI, BW, PTE, etc) on occasion and Garrett product doesnt take a backseat to anyone of these companies. I notice that Europe, the mfr plates and serials are different. They seem to be coming from a different factory? I guess in certain instances or conditions, the bearing cages can collapse but these things are being used on race vehicles throughout the world. I have supported 2 dedicated track (one being in your country) and one rally vehicle running my kits along with GT28xx billet setups through several seasons and not once has there been a bearing cage problem. I dont see it in our inhouse vehicles either. In fact, I dont clearly recall the last time I had to service a Garrett product. I know I do a handful a year but the last one might've been 6 months ago on a 35R chra that was around 4yrs old. Not sure on what is 'cheap' about garrett either. Their castings, wheels, hardware... class leading stuff... They've managed to keep most of their core manufacturing out of china which makes me feel much better


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> I have supported 2 dedicated track (one being in your country) and one rally vehicle running my kits along with GT28xx billet setups
> 
> Not sure on what is 'cheap' about garrett either. Their castings, wheels, hardware... class leading stuff... They've managed to keep most of their core manufacturing out of china which makes me feel much better


*PICS OR IT DIDNT HAPPEN*:laugh: Seriously Arnold, Id love to see the rally car


I've been under the same impression ever since I started with turbos...


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

RodgertheRabit II said:


> *PICS OR IT DIDNT HAPPEN*:laugh: Seriously Arnold, Id love to see the rally car
> 
> 
> I've been under the same impression ever since I started with turbos...


Ha, no problem. I'm not big on doing this so I hope he doesnt mind...


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Bill, I dont know why you are having so many problems with Garrett DBB product. I have and still run other manufacturer's product (MHI, BW, PTE, etc) on occasion and Garrett product doesnt take a backseat to anyone of these companies. I notice that Europe, the mfr plates and serials are different. They seem to be coming from a different factory? I guess in certain instances or conditions, the bearing cages can collapse but these things are being used on race vehicles throughout the world. I have supported 2 dedicated track (one being in your country) and one rally vehicle running my kits along with GT28xx billet setups through several seasons and not once has there been a bearing cage problem. I dont see it in our inhouse vehicles either. In fact, I dont clearly recall the last time I had to service a Garrett product. I know I do a handful a year but the last one might've been 6 months ago on a 35R chra that was around 4yrs old. Not sure on what is 'cheap' about garrett either. Their castings, wheels, hardware... class leading stuff... They've managed to keep most of their core manufacturing out of china which makes me feel much better



Well my own GT35/62 started to suffer cage distortion... and dare I say it was US sourced.. Since rebuilt with metal cage as I caught it early luckily..
The other was a GTX3071 customer sourced from ATP in the US... did'nt even survive running in the engine on actuator boost on the dyno before its bearings went
The other is an eliminator 2871, bearings literally fell into the sump... again, ATP, in the US

Maybe just bad luck, but I have heeded advise from Owen Developments here that for motorsport use, metal cage is strongly advised, and all I will spec now on any of my builds.

We will have to see how the GTX2867 you supplied me recently goes.. Its only going for 350bhp so should'nt be taxed hard but is a track car


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

Bill, this kind of begs the question. The chicken or the egg? The bearing cage is a free floating piece that mostly keeps bearings in place. There's not a ton of stability issues that it must overcome like some other bearing designs. The only things that can damage the cage is heat, lack of lubrication and debris. The cage is not regular plastic. Its a space age polyamide that is very hard and very resistant to heat in an oiled environment. It was designed to be somewhat self lubricating and to resist extremely high acceleration rates. Its properties are superior to that of metal. You dont want metal to metal contact in this area. Otherwise, one component has to be of a non-metal material (ie ceramics). The cage can resist over 450deg F before it starts to lose shape and if your oil is at this level, you've got other problems (most likely of the lubrication kind). If your bearings are cooking, your cage will succumb to it 'plastic' or not. Not sure why those units failed but we are in the turbo world, things can happen... Break in procedures, debris in oil passages, inadequate cooling and lubrication, FOD, etc etc. You cannot pin it on a specific thing just because it happened without further research...


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## badger5 (Nov 17, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Bill, this kind of begs the question. The chicken or the egg? The bearing cage is a free floating piece that mostly keeps bearings in place. There's not a ton of stability issues that it must overcome like some other bearing designs. The only things that can damage the cage is heat, lack of lubrication and debris. The cage is not regular plastic. Its a space age polyamide that is very hard and very resistant to heat in an oiled environment. It was designed to be somewhat self lubricating and to resist extremely high acceleration rates. Its properties are superior to that of metal. You dont want metal to metal contact in this area. Otherwise, one component has to be of a non-metal material (ie ceramics). The cage can resist over 450deg F before it starts to lose shape and if your oil is at this level, you've got other problems (most likely of the lubrication kind). If your bearings are cooking, your cage will succumb to it 'plastic' or not. Not sure why those units failed but we are in the turbo world, things can happen... Break in procedures, debris in oil passages, inadequate cooling and lubrication, FOD, etc etc. You cannot pin it on a specific thing just because it happened without further research...


zero oil contamination issue.. Heat is effecting them, they simply melt and distort... and fail.
The upgrade owens does for me includes uprated heatshield assembly turbine end as well as the metal bearing cages. this is their advise on motorsport use.. and I trust what they say 100%. They do build turbos for BTCC, WRC teams and championships...

heat is their killer. 

lubrication is not their issue, heat distortion is.


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## [email protected] (Oct 23, 2008)

badger5 said:


> zero oil contamination issue.. Heat is effecting them, they simply melt and distort... and fail.
> The upgrade owens does for me includes uprated heatshield assembly turbine end as well as the metal bearing cages. this is their advise on motorsport use.. and I trust what they say 100%. They do build turbos for BTCC, WRC teams and championships...
> 
> heat is their killer.
> ...


I trust your assessment. I'm not implying that it doesnt happen. But I havent had a single instance where the cages collapsed on me as well as the race cars. I dont think you can attribute the eliminator or the turbo on the dyno on wastegate pressure to have succumbed to cage failure unless you had the timing so retarded that it was almost done on purpose. One thing that I've found on a handful that werent accepted into the dbb warranty program... after inspecting the shaft and bearings, noticed oil starvation on ALL of them. Peaked into the internally built in restrictor and noticed on several occasions, instances where it was packed with debris. Turbos were starving for oil and it went south in short order. Bearings were cooked and distorted the cage (this is different then it collapsing by itself and not EGT related. Again, nothing, not even DLC coated unobtainium could have saved the turbos that were boosting without oil). I guess I can add that service to my ever growing list. Metal cage upgrades on all GT series turbos. Wont be cheap but for those inclined...


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