# Forge-style control arm option



## ttwsm (Feb 27, 2011)

Not sure how many other people saw this over in the classifieds, but poopie has sourced a bunch of complete hardware sets for converting our OEM rear control arms to Forge-style adjustables. He will also do the complete conversion, if you send him a pair of arms. I just got mine back, and they are fantastic! Pictures: 



















I went the modified OEM route for a couple of reasons. First, I don't trust myself to properly maintain the heims used on ones like the Gruvenparts or Bluewater Performance arms. Second, I don't track my car. Third, I originally had this fantasy that I'd have time to fab my own, but that just didn't happen. Fourth, in terms of failures, I hope that retaining the OEM bushing will dampen the maximum impact or stress that the bungs, welds, etc. see. 

There were a couple posts several years ago about converting OEMs to adjustables. Both people in that thread were good about replying to my questions about what they did. Neither has had any issues - the OP on that thread did the work over four years ago. One of them even pointed me toward a source for the bungs, but I never did find the threaded adjustment rods. 

Poopie was great to deal with. He was even able (through a friend at a dealership) source some replacement OEM bushings! And note that the bungs he uses appear thicker than the Speedway ones, but require some machining for proper fitment - you can kind of see it in this picture: 










He can either paint or powder coat the finished arms, and press in poly bushings (probably what most people would want to do). 

I'm not sure about forum rules re: posting pricing and such, but if you can be without the control arms on your car for a while, this is a very cost-competitive option. And of course, if you can weld, powder coat, and press, just picking up a set of hardware will be *a lot* cheaper than the alternatives. 

Anyway big up for fellow forum member with a great control arm option! Now I just need to find the time to get them installed...


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

The only problem is that these are based on the design that had multiple failures because of the placement of the adjusters. It may be a cost effective solution but not a structurally sound one, good luck with them!


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## chaldowhiteboy (Jun 14, 2010)

madmax199 said:


> The only problem is that these are based on the design that had multiple failures because of the placement of the adjusters. It may be a cost effective solution but not a structurally sound one, good luck with them!


 By "failure," do you mean that the adjusters snapped? I want to see arms like these run on some type of software showing why the placement of the adjusters wouldn't be structurally sound. Something on like SolidWorks Simulation would show something like that. Do you know of any examples where the adjusters snapped because of their placement?


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## ttwsm (Feb 27, 2011)

Time will indeed tell. 

At least one person has had no issues after four plus years with this type of design. I asked poopie to move the adjustment section toward one end, and am retaining the OEM bushing in part to prevent failure. 

You know, I put the effort in to add a lot of links to related info into my post. I totally respect your knowledge, but would appreciate links to descriptions of the failures. This would help everyone. I'm not saying they didn't happen - I'm saying that info about specific failures might be more useful than a dismissive "good luck with them!"


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

You guys are right, without linked threads or pictures of the failures, my statement does not hold water. I assumed that the multiple failures due to the adjustments placement was a known fact here (it is on other forums) , I will try to find the links or pictures that solidify my claim. 

TTWSM, I totally understand your concerns with heim joints and the need to retain full streetability. I myself had the same concerns and couldn't find the control arm that had all the features that I'm looking for: 
-all steel 
-no welds in the center tube 
-adjusters not compromising the arm structural rigidity because of non optimal placement 
-poly bushing instead of spherical bearings 

I know most are going to say that it's asking for too much but that is the kind of person I am, I demand the best because that is where I want to be when I race and compete. 

I am going to let the cat out of the bag, although a proper thread will follow, I designed and built adjustable arms that has all the features I just mentioned. The prototypes are being tested in my car as we speak and only a few key members of this forum knew about it. If anyone is, like me, looking for the ultimate control arms just be a little patient because it's coming.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

I have more pics but I am posting from my cell 

 
Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## G'D60 (Mar 11, 2002)

Dang that looks filthy. 

Any idea as to what you'll be charging for a set?


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

madmax199 said:


> I am going to let the cat out of the bag, although a proper thread will follow, I designed and built adjustable arms that has all the features I just mentioned. If anyone is, like me, looking for the ultimate control arms just be a little patient because it's coming.


 Im glad you finally told everyone. The suspense of not being able to tell anyone was KILLING me:laugh: 

You guys are gonna freak out when you know all the details. Max has been putting in some serious work in the control arm dept. These things are WAY over engineered. I know that theres nothing as beefy on the market. And I highly doubt anyone will ever build anything better. All of the "potential issues" have been addressed, and beaten to death. 

Max, :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::beer:


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## VroomTT (Jan 17, 2011)

Nice!:beer: 


Awesome to see someone taking things like this into their own hands:thumbup: 

Lets see some pics and get an idea of the price... sign me up


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

VroomTT said:


> Nice!:beer:
> 
> 
> Awesome to see someone taking things like this into their own hands:thumbup:
> ...


Sorry I couldn't post more pictures earlier (pita on a cell).
Pricing will be around $275 but I'm tring to decide on final details like full powdercoat on the arms or just powdercoating the ends like the prototypes (the center tube is gold anodized so it's ready for all kind of weather/environment). I am also going to offer anything between 3-5 year warranty, but nowing myself I will stand behind them "lifetime no question asked".

Like I said before, I am still working out some final details but the arms are designed and built to eliminate the known weak points of the existing aftermarket solutions and will be released soon. 

*The arms* 


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


*Grease fitting so the poly-bushings could be lubricated for a permanent noise free operation


*
Uploaded with ImageShack.us

*Gold anodized to keep the thick 1 1/4 DOM steel from surface rust(interior threads are coated with a permanent dry lubricant).*


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRzbIMzaY54

Sorry, that was intended to be a slow clap gif. Lol


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

They're only _ultimate_ if I can adjust them without pulling the end bolts! I can't tell from the pics – are both ends threaded so that adjustment on car can be done?

Either way, more awesome stuff from Max :thumbup:


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

jbrehm said:


> They're only _ultimate_ if I can adjust them without pulling the end bolts! I can't tell from the pics – are both ends threaded so that adjustment on car can be done?
> 
> Either way, more awesome stuff from Max :thumbup:


You know me well enough by now to know that I wouldn't miss on anything that has to do with the functionality of anything I do. The pictures were taken a while ago without the left hand thread jam nuts because I was quickly snapping a few pics for Eric berfore I mounted the prototypes on the car. 

-All steel
-no welds on the center tube
-the thickest dome tubing possible without making them heavier than stock
-anodized center tube, powder coated ends
-coated inner threads
-stiff grade polyurethane(stage 3)
-grease fitting on the bushing ends
-tested for both radial and axial load stress (they can take double what the TT is estimated to deliver)

I really took the time to exclude everything that was problematic in the "other" designs out there.
My original plan was to co-design them with an existing name in the game but nobody took me seriously and they swore up and down that their design was sound and the issues presented were negligable :screwy:.


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

Sorry for even considering doubting you :laugh:

Well, I'm in for some replacement arms in the future. I've already got spherical bearing ones that I made up, but would definitely like to switch to these no/low maintenance beauties :thumbup:


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

jbrehm said:


> Sorry for even considering doubting you :laugh:
> 
> Well, I'm in for some replacement arms in the future. I've already got spherical bearing ones that I made up, but would definitely like to switch to these no/low maintenance beauties :thumbup:


You got it my friend, just hit me up when you're ready! :beer:


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## Late__Apex (Dec 2, 2007)

Nice work Max! :beer:


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

Late__Apex said:


> Nice work Max! :beer:


Thanks Steve!


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

madmax199 said:


> -All steel
> -no welds on the center tube
> -the thickest dome tubing possible without making them heavier than stock
> -anodized center tube, powder coated ends
> ...


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Way to do it Max I'll buy you a beer if your going to H2O :beer:


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

PLAYED TT said:


> I'm currently in awe. Max you've outdone yourself this time.:thumbup:


Thanks, it really is a result of the problems and concerns that the hole community had with the existing ones, I just acted on the fact that somebody needed to build them the "right way". 





DeckManDubs said:


> Way to do it Max I'll buy you a beer if your going to H2O :beer:


Thanks Noah, I'm unfortunately too busy to make H20. MY 3 months old son and countless projects takes all my spare time, I hardly even have time to go race .


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

Congrats on the 3mo old :beer: well I am sure we will meet up somewhere.


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## Tempes_TT (Oct 24, 2010)

madmax199 said:


> Sorry I couldn't post more pictures earlier (pita on a cell).
> Pricing will be around $275 but I'm tring to decide on final details like full powdercoat on the arms or just powdercoating the ends like the prototypes (the center tube is gold anodized so it's ready for all kind of weather/environment). I am also going to offer anything between 3-5 year warranty, but nowing myself I will stand behind them "lifetime no question asked".
> 
> Like I said before, I am still working out some final details but the arms are designed and built to eliminate the known weak points of the existing aftermarket solutions and will be released soon.
> ...


You sir have a PM. I also noticed one of my questions was answered in this too, sorry!


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## ttwsm (Feb 27, 2011)

madmax199 said:


> You guys are right, without linked threads or pictures of the failures, my statement does not hold water. I assumed that the multiple failures due to the adjustments placement was a known fact here (it is on other forums) , I will try to find the links or pictures that solidify my claim.


So.... I'm at home, being the "responsible adult" while my eight-year-old and her friends play some Wii in the TV room downstairs, and I got to thinking about control arm failures again. I finally got one of my adjustables installed last week. Without an air wrench, I was unable to get the other one changed out - had the dealership do it before getting an alignment, which is a whole other story.

ANYWAY I haven't stopped wondering about failure modes, so I'm doing a little searching. I've read every link in the first three pages of hits from a Google search on "adjustable control arm failure". Here's what I've found.

Two instances of failure due to jam nuts not being tightened properly.
http://www.patrol4x4.com/forum/suspension-57/adjustable-control-arm-failure-69064/
http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=117151

One instance of a Heim joint failure.
http://www.northamericanmotoring.co...-rear-adjustable-control-arms-which-ones.html

Two failures of front control arm designs that don't seem to apply to our situation.
http://tl.acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=807890
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?403614-Adjustable-Upper-Control-Arms


And then a lot of links that do not talk about failures at all. Many of them do show different control arm designs, which I found interesting. Two like Max's:
http://store.bimmerworld.com/adjustable-aluminum-rear-lower-control-arms---e36e46z4-p663.aspx for BMW
http://www.kineticvehicles.com/ControlArms.html for Caterham-style kit cars

One similar, but with longer end pieces so that the threaded portions end up about 1/3 of the way in from each pivot point:
http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/chromoly_adj_arms/

One for WRX STi with one threaded portion at one end and the other about 1/3 of the way in:
http://www.agency-power.com/catalog/agency-power-rear-adjustable-control-arms-subaru-p-45733.html

One for WRX with adjustment in the middle:
www.whiteline.com.au/docs/bulletins/072_kta.pdf

One with an adjustment at one end and in the middle (and look at how short they are!):
http://www.cheperformance.com/instructions/CHE2BC/CHE2BCPrint.html (for Mustang)

There was a lot of unrelated info, especially for lifted Jeeps. One other link from a Z forum did have an interesting discussion of failure modes and design considerations..


The moral of the story, to me, is be sure to TIGHTEN THOSE JAM NUTS!


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

ttwsm said:


> The moral of the story, to me, is be sure to TIGHTEN THOSE JAM NUTS!


The same goes for lugnuts and load bearing critical suspension joints 
I will see if I can dig those multiple "thread in the middle" failures that were reported on our platform.

Since my control arm thread got blackholed because the tex police considered it "illegal advertising" (although there was no mention of selling arms or pricing ), I will use your thread and my sig build in the future to update my findings on my solution for the rear :beer:.


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