# High Pitched whirring noise (driving me insane)



## ciscokidinsf (Feb 17, 2008)

OK, I'm near the end of my patience and of my mental sanity:
My Phaeton makes this high-pitched whirring noise when the car is parked and idling on park or reverse (not in gear) and:
- It ONLY happens when the car is warm/day is warm (In the mornings or on very cool days, it doesn't do it) Sat and Sunday it didn't do the 'noise' but they were cold days.
- It goes away once I engage the gears when parked (brake pedal is pressed), but comes back when I put the car in park again, let go of the brake.
- after maybe 4 or 5 minutes, the sound decreases its volume, but doesn't go away
- The noise is there whether the AC is running or not. 
Recently it had done: new breaks and timing belt replacement. I took the car last friday to the shop that did the breaks (not the VW dealer) but (wouldn't you know it) it was too cool a day and the noise was not there. I'm pretty sure I looked insane to the tech guy. Today, in the afternoon, much warmer, the noise was back.
When I open the hood, the noise 'seems' to come from the middle of the engine. (e.g. near the spark plug covers) Not where the belt is running.
I've re-accomodated the two plastic trim pieces, to no avail. No error codes at all. Car runs fine, breaks fine. All temps are running OK.








Any ideas? I'm afraid of going to the VW dealer and have the stupid noise not there. Plus the dealer I take it too its kinda far away (25 miles) so they can't offer me a ride back home.


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## Kuwaity (Apr 2, 2004)

There is electric water pump in my Jetta/Bora. which makes bad noise in hot temp.
May be the Phaeton got one? if yes then you need to replace it.
Ahmad


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## tgarbrecht (May 30, 2007)

*Re: High Pitched whirring noise (ciscokidinsf)*

just to be safe, check your power steering fluid. My car made a similiar sound and the fluid ended up being bone dry - needed a whole new steering pump


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## geowben (Jan 26, 2005)

*Re: High Pitched whirring noise (ciscokidinsf)*

Move to Michigan. You'll never see a warm day.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: High Pitched whirring noise (geowben)*


_Quote, originally posted by *geowben* »_Move to Michigan. You'll never see a warm day.


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## ciscokidinsf (Feb 17, 2008)

*Re: High Pitched whirring noise (PanEuropean)*

Hee.







Thanks, maybe I misunderstood what the 'Winter Package' means?







and if Michael is making fun of me, I know I'm in deep s%$t then...
I'll check the Steering fluid. Though, I don't think that is it. I don't hear any noise when turning. It could be the water pump (b/c they just put one in the timing belt change) but why would it make a sound when parked?
Off I go this week to investigate.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: High Pitched whirring noise (ciscokidinsf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ciscokidinsf* »_I'm afraid of going to the VW dealer and have the stupid noise not there... 

Francisco:
Do what Jeff and I do when we drop our Phaetons off for service at the VW dealer here in Victoria... just wait until you don't need the car for a week or two (business trip, vacation, whatever), then fill it up with gas, drop it off at the dealership along with a list of requests, and ask the Phaeton tech if he or she would be so kind as to use the car as their daily driver for a week, and return it to you with an empty gas tank.
Result is that the Phaeton tech has lots of time to identify the problem (while driving it), diagnose and fix the problem (car doesn't have to be ready for 5:00 PM the same day), then test drive the car for a few days to make sure everything works they way they want it to.
Net result: When you go back to pick the car up, it's perfect, plus, the whole process is very stress free for both the owner and the Phaeton tech. The only additional cost to you is a tank of gas (about equal to one hour of shop labour).
I like this system - have used it for years - Jeff has just bought his Phaeton and has started off using this system, and the Phaeton tech at our VW dealership likes this system, because it takes all the time pressure off him and allows him to achieve the level of perfection that he wants to achieve.
Michael


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## ciscokidinsf (Feb 17, 2008)

I'll give it a try. I'll drop the car this weekend. See what they tell me. Thanks.


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## ciscokidinsf (Feb 17, 2008)

*Re: (ciscokidinsf)*

VW Dealer strikes out. Bummer. And it cost me $$$. No idea except is a 'transmission' issue and would require a transmission teardown








I'll try one more dealer, further away but with a more knowledgeable guy. 
So I guess I'll just have to avoid leaving the car idling in park to avoid the whirring noise. (Or move to a colder climate place)


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## ahwilder (Jan 17, 2007)

*Re: (ciscokidinsf)*

Francisco,
If you haven't already taken your car to Bob Lewis VW in SJ, you might give them a try. They have two Phaeton trained techs (Chris Gladgo is excellent) and a great service advisor (Marilyn Hammond).
Art


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## ciscokidinsf (Feb 17, 2008)

Yep, That's where I'm going next. Chris has already seen my Phaeton a couple of times.


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## ciscokidinsf (Feb 17, 2008)

*Giving Up The Mystery Noise Fight*

Picked up the car yesterday. Despite the best of intentions, the noise is still there.







Goddamit!!!
So far we have done:
- Replace Two separate Valves
- Replaced a Tensioner and Serpentine Belt
Car has been there for almost 15 days (in 3 separate but near consecutive visits) and $700 later, no dice. 
Chasing the noise with the best Phaeton tech in the Bay area has produced no difference. In the last visit Added some new air filters, charged the secondary battery and cleaned the snow screens, plus did the european spec drop. Car looks good, feels awesome, except when I park after running a few miles in the highway. The squealing/whirring noise is still there! I swear I'm going to get Chris the tech to commute with me in the morning to reproduce this noise. I shared Stefano's theories on possible issues with him, but we have struck out.
After all of this, I think it is a tranny issue. So doing the flush might be my last, best hope of a non-invasive way to fix it, or just turn the car off right away after I park to ignore the noise. I'm tired of this.







because otherwise the car is perfect, drives very well and I could just ignore the noise to preserve my sanity and bank account. 
I'll keep the car for a while and maybe on my next oil change ask him for a fourth time to see what could it be. The symptoms are exactly the same, squealing noise when in Park or Neutral after running the car for 10-15 miles, all other gears are fine. No Tranny noise at all when driving, or none than I can hear anyway. No noise when the car is cold and I start it. Shifts are smooth. 
Question: Does the Transmission Fluid flush require special VW dealer equipment? Could this be done at a decent independent Audi-VW repair place? I was quoted $850 for the flush by the dealer. Its either this or actually having to remove the tranny to do some investigating. Because it is not quite a failure my extended warranty ain't covering any of this. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Giving Up The Mystery Noise Fight (ciscokidinsf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ciscokidinsf* »_Question: Does the Transmission Fluid flush require special VW dealer equipment? Could this be done at a decent independent Audi-VW repair place?

"Yes" and "Probably not", respectively.
You need a 5052 to monitor transmission fluid temperature while filling in order to get the fluid at the correct level.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Giving Up The Mystery Noise Fight (chrisj428)*

See this post for information about changing transmission fluid: Changing Transmission Fluid on the 5 speed (FGE) Transmission (W12 Engine). This addresses a W12 engine with a 5 speed, I suspect the procedure is generally similar for the V8 with the 6 speed.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: High Pitched whirring noise (ciscokidinsf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ciscokidinsf* »_...I swear I'm going to get Chris the tech to commute with me in the morning to reproduce this noise... 

Francisco:
Honestly, just give your tech the car (with a full tank of gas) and ask him to drive it for a week to and from work, or to take it on a long weekend trip somewhere, etc. That is the most sure-fire way of enabling him to experience the problem himself and make an accurate diagnosis of what it is.
Your problem is not that "your car makes an unwanted noise". Your problem is that "your highly competent tech has not been able to identify the cause of the noise because he has never heard it". As soon as your tech can experience the problem himself, he will be able to pinpoint the cause of it and then fix it.
Michael


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## ciscokidinsf (Feb 17, 2008)

*Re: High Pitched whirring noise (PanEuropean)*

On the visit prior to last, I did told him to go ahead, drive it all around, I even gave him the car with a full tank ($80 USD) to play around with. 
Maybe our US techs aren't too keen to drive customers' cars due to liability issues. (I mean, what if the car is damaged/crashed during the 2-3 day test drive, etc..., then who is responsible? my insurance? (which I would be OK with, really) The tech's personal insurance? The dealer's? 
I'll call my service advisor again, see what she thinks it could be done. As I said, a 10+mile commute can reproduce the noise in a consistent basis. I'm going back friday to have lunch with Adrian who lives close to there anyway and pitch this one.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: High Pitched whirring noise (ciscokidinsf)*

I don't know how insurance works in the USA. Here in Canada, any policy is obliged to cover any licenced driver who uses a car with the permission of the owner. The only exception is in some cases where you declare that all drivers must be over a certain age (e.g. 21), in order to avoid being dinged for additional risk associated with ownership of a teenager who lives in your household. But even then, if the kid has to drive the car in an emergency (e.g. to take someone to the hospital), the policy states that in such an emergency, the insurance cover will be in force.
Heck - it's all a matter of personal trust. As long as the tech trusts that you aren't going to sue him, then not to worry.
At my local VW dealer, you now have to book two weeks in advance if you want to give your Phaeton or Porsche to the tech for long term diagnosis. The idea has really caught on like wildfire amongst the high end car owners (new Porsches, Audi 8s, Phaetons - the dealer sells and services all three)- it just makes so much sense, and really takes all the stress out of the process for both the tech and the customer.
Michael


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: Giving Up The Mystery Noise Fight (ciscokidinsf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ciscokidinsf* »_
Question: Does the Transmission Fluid flush require special VW dealer equipment? Could this be done at a decent independent Audi-VW repair place? I was quoted $850 for the flush by the dealer. Its either this or actually having to remove the tranny to do some investigating. Because it is not quite a failure my extended warranty ain't covering any of this. http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

Francisco,
Keep in mind that, in my case at least, the flush also included a "flash" of a different program to the transmission controller in order to raise the oil pressure slightly. Although there is no direct evidence that this relates to your problem, as you are not experiencing tremors, I suspect it might, as the noise appears only when hot and transmission oil, like any oil, changes viscosity as a function of temperature. So, I would definitely have the job done by a Phaeton tech, as a repair shop would not have access to the revised software.
Stefano


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## ciscokidinsf (Feb 17, 2008)

*Re: Giving Up The Mystery Noise Fight (Motorista)*

Yeah, I'd figured as much. After a serpentine belt and tensioner were added, I thought the noise had gone away for real. (It did for a whole day!) But in the last 5 days it has appeared at least 3 times. All after some highway driving, right when I park. At least it has stopped being a daily thing. If I drive short distances, the sound isn't there.
If the noise keeps appearing around, I'll go for the tranny flush. Though I might have to wait for a bit. The other car I drive when the Phaeton is at the dealer has a bad master brake cylinder. So I need to fix that one before the Phaeton goes for another extended holiday vacation at the dealer.


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## ciscokidinsf (Feb 17, 2008)

*Re: Giving Up The Mystery Noise Fight (ciscokidinsf)*

Latest (crazy) theory: Throttle Vent Going Bad?
So, this morning the car was making the noise, and I did an on-the-spot trip to the dealer. Luckily, the tech was there at 7:25am. While the car was making the noise, we opened the hood, and the noise went away when he opened the oil cap, and when he started moving around the previously changed breather valve and pressing the big hose attached to it. (car was still in Park)
He took it to the service bay, and 20 minutes later gave me the car back, thinking it might be a throttle vent (he did a quick adjustment of it) and his theory is that when the car goes to park/neutral, the vent tries to close and does not close all the way, therefore, making the squealing noise. So he is still thinking the noise is not from the tranny, but perhaps the valve. I'm not 100% sure yet. I'll see if the noise is there. 
Do you guys think this explanation makes sense? I'll check if the noise comes back tomorrow morning. Though I've never heard another Phaeton owner having issues with the valves or vents. (air or throttle)










_Modified by ciscokidinsf at 7:58 PM 5-21-2008_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Giving Up The Mystery Noise Fight (ciscokidinsf)*

I do know that there is some kind of vent that opens and closes for emissions purposes - I don't know much more about it than that - so, your theory sounds quite plausable.
Michael


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## Kuwaity (Apr 2, 2004)

*Re: Giving Up The Mystery Noise Fight (PanEuropean)*

May be Its nothing but secondary air injection system to reduce the exhaust emission when the catalyst converter is cool. This will increase the oxygen density in the exhaust system to make the exhaust burn more efficient, reduce emissions and speed up the cat. Heating time.
I have this system in my Honda S2000 and my VW bora (maybe the phaeton got one) both produce noise when the car is cold and goes after about 2 minutes. In the Bora, after about 7 years the air pump defected (maybe its motor bearing?). the result was very annoying noise sounds like hsszzzzsszz and some voltage drop in the electrical system which dims the car headlights (i.e. over load, poor voltage regulation) then it goes away. Now the motor is dead and there is no noise at all. When I have test the car with vag com using readiness function i found that both the secondary air system and the catalyst test was failed. So the system is not doing its job any more.
This will not harm the car or affects its performance.
As I mentioned earlier in this topic, it could be the Electric water pump( if available in the phaeton), which also produce noise in my Bora in hot days or when driving too fast for too long.

Ahmad


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: Giving Up The Mystery Noise Fight (ciscokidinsf)*

Francisco, the fact that the noise went away when he opened the oil filler cap is a very interesting clue, and his theory certainly appears to have merit. The next step now wold be to pop the hood and open the filler cap when you hear the noise again: if it goes away *every* time it would certainly validate his theory. 
Ahmad also has a good point, I think. Every engine crankcase needs to "breathe", i.e. the engine oil is not hermetically sealed form the athmosphere (with the only exception of very specialized applications). Back 50 years ago this was not a problem because simple "breather" pipes where added to accomplish this task. More recently environmental and pollution concerns have led to increasingly complex systems to enable some air to come in while preventing oil fumes from escaping into the athmosphere: hence the pcv valves twenty years ago, and the vastly more complex systems of today. If anyone of the components is malfunctioning and sticking partially open or partially closed, it's quite possible for the air flow to produce a noise (something like wind in a narrow passage between two buildings). In other words, this could be an aerodynamic noise. What still stumps me is why it does not go away when you rev the engine up from idle while still in park or neutral mode, though. In any case, it sounds (pun intended







) like you are getting closer!
Stefano


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## Motorista (Oct 28, 2005)

*Re: Giving Up The Mystery Noise Fight (ciscokidinsf)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ciscokidinsf* »_Latest (crazy) theory: Throttle Vent Going Bad?
He took it to the service bay, and 20 minutes later gave me the car back, thinking it might be a throttle vent (he did a quick adjustment of it) and his theory is that when the car goes to park/neutral, the vent tries to close and does not close all the way, therefore, making the squealing noise. So he is still thinking the noise is not from the tranny, but perhaps the valve. row morning. Though I've never heard another Phaeton owner having issues with the valves or vents. (air or throttle)







I'm not 100% sure yet. I'll see if the noise is there. 
Do you guys think this explanation makes sense? 
_Modified by ciscokidinsf at 7:58 PM 5-21-2008_

Francisco, 
I ran this explanation by my Phaeton tech, and it made sense to him. In fact, he seemed to remember a service bulletin issued a while ago for the Passat for a similar vent valve problem, thouhg he could not immediately locate it. The fact that it goes away when shifting into D or N also makes sense to him, as the engine load and revolution do change and may affect the noise. Thought you might want to know.
Stefano


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## ciscokidinsf (Feb 17, 2008)

*Re: Giving Up The Mystery Noise Fight (Motorista)*

Thanks Stefano. I'll mention it. My Tech was out most of this week, Car is due back to the dealer on Tuesday of next week. The noise is still there, mostly in the mornings after a long drive, and yes, it goes away when I open the oil cap. So I hope a solution is near.


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## ciscokidinsf (Feb 17, 2008)

*Re: Giving Up The Mystery Noise Fight (ciscokidinsf)*

Thanks to Lorenz today (*CA_W12*) we ran his VAG-COM while the noise was present in my Phaeton. Obviously, no codes were found, nor the car seems to be sending higher oxygen into the engine.
So at least the noise is not harmful... just frakkin' annoying. I haven't taken the car yet to the dealer as I was trying to. Will do that soon.


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## zenmoused (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: Giving Up The Mystery Noise Fight (ciscokidinsf)*

Francisco,
I have the exact same problem in my Phaeton and it drives me crazy. What good is washing and waxing my car if it whines embarrassingly at every stop light? 
My experience is that when the car drops to idle after warming up it makes the noise. It's definitely engine-related. Changing gears in the transmission doesn't alter it, neither does braking, steering or climate settings.
Any luck finding a fix?
Brian


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Giving Up The Mystery Noise Fight (zenmoused)*

I don't think that any of us who are reading this post are going to be able to contribute meaningful assistance without a much more precise description of where the noise is coming from - under the hood (if so, where), etc.
Michael


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## zenmoused (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: Giving Up The Mystery Noise Fight (PanEuropean)*

I'm sorry, I was just adding a "me too" to Francisco's story, since he's been pretty descriptive.
Here's what happens in my car. Only in warm weather, after the car has warmed up completely, I will hear a high-pitched whine from the engine when I come to a stop or otherwise let the engine idle. We've finally had a few warm days here in NYC and just yesterday was the first time she's done it since last fall. 
What I've disqualified as being related to the noise: 
- It's independent of brakes
- independent of transmission gear
- independent of steering
- independent of climate settings
- independent of load on engine
Noise is strictly at idle RPM, and the slightest blip of the throttle makes it go away until the RPM drops back down. Sounds like air rushing into a very small space in the engine. I will investigate now to see if I can find the approximate source and get back to you guys.
Brian


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## mhoepfin (Dec 20, 2007)

Probably has nothing to do with it, but have either of you tried removing or cleaning the snowscreens?


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## zenmoused (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (mhoepfin)*

Mike,
Thank you for the suggestion, however I removed and cleaned the snow screens this winter. They had an effect on performance I would say, however no effect on the noise.
Brian


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Giving Up The Mystery Noise Fight (zenmoused)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zenmoused* »_ Sounds like air rushing into a very small space in the engine. 

Hello Brian:
That is a very good clue. There is some plumbing (rubber tubing, for the most part) under the engine that supports the emission control system. Some of it is suction tubing and some of it is pressure tubing. There is also a small valve within all of that tubing that regulates airflow.
My guess is that the unwanted noise may be coming from that emission control plumbing - perhaps you have a loose or damaged connection somewhere.
Next time you hear the sound, open the hood and go searching under there. Have a particularly close look at any small hoses (about 1/2 an inch outside diameter) that you see running around on either side of the throttle body, and around the back of the engine, near the aft edge of the compartment where the engine sits.
Michael


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## zenmoused (Nov 6, 2008)

Thanks Michael, I'll give that a try next time I get it to make the noise. May be a few days until we have some warm weather again, sigh.
Brian


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## zenmoused (Nov 6, 2008)

Ok so here's an update. Popped the hood today while the noise was happening. First off, the noise is MUCH louder when you open the hood. It seems to be coming from the plenum area, underneath the round hockey-puck looking thing. I can't tell if it's an air leak or a belt squeak. I checked all the hoses that I could reach easily and momentarily constricted each to see if the noise changed. No dice. Any ideas?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (zenmoused)*

Could you elaborate a bit about what the 'round hockey puck looking thing' is? I have a different engine in my car, so, I can't go out and look for a similar object.
Michael


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## zenmoused (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

It looks like some kind of air distribution box. It's round, the size of a hockey puck, and has several air hoses coming out of it. It sits above where the plenum and throttle are (I'm assuming that's where they are on this engine). 
It's interesting because I'm starting to wonder if this noise is some kind of belt squeak, but I don't know which belts are on the back of the engine? The reason I suspect this is because at low idle, it sometimes breaks into a fast rythmic whine, suggesting something is rotating. Any thoughts?
Brian


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (zenmoused)*

There is a small valve in that general neighborhood - which, I believe, is connected to one of the hoses that come out of that round distribution manifold - and that valve normally makes a very soft clicking noise when it operates.
It is possible that the valve is defective. It is also possible that you have an air leak in your vacuum system - in other words, in one of the hoses that comes out of that manifold. Keep investigating in that area, and I am sure you will find the source of the noise.
Michael


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## zenmoused (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Thanks Michael,
I'll be sure to let you know when I find the source.
Brian


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## ciscokidinsf (Feb 17, 2008)

*Re: (zenmoused)*


_Quote »_There is a small valve in that general neighborhood - which, I believe, is connected to one of the hoses that come out of that round distribution manifold - and that valve normally makes a very soft clicking noise when it operates.
It is possible that the valve is defective. It is also possible that you have an air leak in your vacuum system - in other words, in one of the hoses that comes out of that manifold. Keep investigating in that area, and I am sure you will find the source of the noise.

Sorry to disappoint you guys, But I had my tech replace this valve as well, it was one of the very first things he replaced at a $200 cost. But IT DIDN'T WORK. Noise is still there. I can't idle the Phaeton sometimes b/c the whirring noise starts.
To me, it feels more like some throttle vent not closing all the way. The car will make noise when hot, after a highway drive. Small errands usually do not trigger the noise.








I haven't posted in a while because my Job search took 6 months. Found a job at a significant paycut.







Obviously Phaeton maintenance beyond oil changes has been less of a priority, but hopefully I can drop the car this summer to fix this and other stuff (Drivers headrest doesn't move, One headlight went out)


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## Silverjet08 (May 13, 2009)

My 08 Jetta is doing the same thing, i.e., high-pitch whining noise after about 10 minutes of driving time, but only when there's a load on the engine. According to the tech at my local VW dealership's service department, the noise is the result of a bad PCV valve. I will be able to tell you definitively on Tues (16 June), that's when the valve will be replaced. I was surprised to learn that the PVC valve and valve cover are one piece and to fix the problem the entire valve cover has to be replaced. Luckily, the power train has about 4 years left on its warranty.


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## zenmoused (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (Silverjet08)*

Very interested to hear if that's the case. I've brought mine to the dealer twice with no solution. 
Brian


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## Silverjet08 (May 13, 2009)

My noise was definitely the PCV valve. It was changed out today and I drove the car for an hour straight without any problems.


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## zenmoused (Nov 6, 2008)

*Re: (Silverjet08)*

Great to hear, congrats on fixing your problem! I'll be sure to cite this when I visit my dealer next. Hopefully mine's the same. 
Brian


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