# megasquirt vs unitronic



## 1.8TTURBO (Oct 1, 2006)

so for my setup 1.8t t3s60 630cc injectors i'm in doubt for the programming, i'm undecidded if going with a megasquirt v2.2 MS1 21psi MAP (i can get it here locally for $400 plus Tuning) or Unitronic or Chris/Tapp Eurodyne 630cc Programming ($800-900).
need help here please http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Cpsmith3 (Jul 31, 2007)

*Re: megasquirt vs unitronic (1.8TTURBO)*

I would recommend MS. 
You will get a great lesson in how engines work, and you will be able to tune the car yourself.
The greatest advantage of MS is when you install new upgrades such as cams you will only have to plug in your laptop, do a few tweaks and your done, all without having to shell out more money.
Good luck with whatever you decide,
Cheers


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## 1.8TTURBO (Oct 1, 2006)

any other recommendation?


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## crzygreek (Jul 8, 2005)

dont even think about using ms! please keep the bosch 7.5 and go with unitronics latest tune for the 630's!! you will thank yourself later..
car acts like stock, dives like stock and adapts like stock hell they even get the same gas mileage if not beat on!

DONT EVEN ASK YOURSELF THE QUESTION, CONTACT UNITRONIC NOW!!!!


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: megasquirt vs unitronic (1.8TTURBO)*


_Quote, originally posted by *1.8TTURBO* »_i can get it here locally for $400 plus Tuning

+ Drive by cable swap
+ loss of wideband ability
+ 60-2 wheel trigger set up
+
+...
It is an apples to oranges comparison.Stay with the software,Eurodyne's 630cc file is really good.


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## NOTORIOUS VR (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: megasquirt vs unitronic (Wizard-of-OD)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Wizard-of-OD* »_
+ Drive by cable swap

True

_Quote »_+ loss of wideband ability
+ 60-2 wheel trigger set up


You can add an innovative LC-1 to the MS and you'll have a wideband sensor for tuning and closed loop operation again.
And the MS works with 60-2 triggers just fine.

Put it this way. If you're interested in tuning your own car and taking the time to deal with the likes of a 'cheap' stand alone. Then go with MS. But don't expect the tuning to be finished from one quick session. There are a ton of things to think about when going with any stand alone as far as tuning is concerned.
Go for the Unitronic flash if you want a hassle free setup that will have you driving away after the 20 min flash.
What will cost you less in the long run if you get someone to tune the car for you? The flash.
Could the MS setup cost you less? Yes if you do everything yourself. But probably not by much.


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## Issam Abed (Feb 12, 2004)

*Re: megasquirt vs unitronic (NOTORIOUS VR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NOTORIOUS VR* »_You can add.

Key word. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

whats wrong with being able to add? i wish more people would actually buy this and learn to tune,, as of now we have a bunch of babies in our scene that want everything done for them and have no idea whats going on at the low levels of the car (low meaning like basic , as in computers low level programming ) there is a reason the honda and DSM guys consistently put out cars with 400+ hp for a fraction of the cost but with the same build quality, because way back when, someone took the chance to tune the cars themselves and shared the knowledge with others, we can never progress as a scene if we contently rely on others for our tunes, and have no innovation of our own.....


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## troze1200 (Oct 12, 2000)

MegaSquirt gets th job done. The only advantages of the more expensive stuff are optional thingies which aren't essential, nor are they going to make the car faster or drive any better. 
stuff I've added to my MS that you will want:
wideband (lc-1)
boost control
tps based boost control
launch control (flat shift if I want it)
knocksense
EGT logging
There's even a traction control script out there. 
The only thing I don't like about ms is the lack of onboard data logging. You also don't have to run the crank trigger set-up, I use the stock cam angle sensor in my miata. 
You will learn so much about EFI by running ms. 


_Modified by troze1200 at 9:44 PM 9-14-2008_


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## [email protected] (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: megasquirt vs unitronic (1.8TTURBO)*









You have a 30-Day Money Back Guarantee if you are not happy with it


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

not knocking you don, but compared to the other car enthusiasts out there our crowd is a joke when it come to tuning. there are VERY FEW that can even do it, im all for the pre made chip flashes for people that want some power and warranty. but these guys that are doing all this building then having someone else tune the car its like wtf knowing how EVERYTHING runs and works is the whole point of modifying cars, so we can cast off the factory shackles and have full control of our cars... not just trade them for slightly larger ones


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## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

Completely agree with that /\
One thing that frustrates me about the drop in chip fans is "runs like stock".
So "Like stock" is the best they're hoping for?
What about "better than stock"? ;-)
You can't achieve better than stock with stock components.


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## bigtoy302 (Apr 27, 2006)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*

I am currently runing ms2 on my AEB in my Corrado and it does run good and does not brake down but it will never be as good as the stock computer. I have almost 10k with ms and I get wierd hickups and it ranomly dies at idle for no reason. It does not matter what I do for tuning I cant get over 25 mpg's.One thing your forgeting is the countless hours and money spent on properly dyno tuning on a load bearing dyno. I would say save your money and buy software for the stock computer. ms is not a few hundred dollars it's more like over 1k when you add up computer, harness, bigger map sensor, wideband, dyno time.


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## VR6rocks (Jun 5, 2004)

*Re: (bigtoy302)*

Not necessarily, you won't have to spend all this effort by yourself when there is a whole community working on tuning MS for the different setups. It's a small contribution from each member of this community
Don't get me wrong. I love my C2 chip, and it's very well tuned. I went this route because I know I don't have much free time to tune the car myself.


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

i have c2 as well.... its been a life saver... but i am so confined on what i can do with it, for now it is good, but i will soon be switching over to MS . like previously stated, the more people we have working on tuning, the easier it becomes for the rest


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## troze1200 (Oct 12, 2000)

*Re: (bigtoy302)*


_Quote, originally posted by *bigtoy302* »_I am currently runing ms2 on my AEB in my Corrado and it does run good and does not brake down but it will never be as good as the stock computer. I have almost 10k with ms and I get wierd hickups and it ranomly dies at idle for no reason. It does not matter what I do for tuning I cant get over 25 mpg's.One thing your forgeting is the countless hours and money spent on properly dyno tuning on a load bearing dyno. I would say save your money and buy software for the stock computer. ms is not a few hundred dollars it's more like over 1k when you add up computer, harness, bigger map sensor, wideband, dyno time.

You need to get with a competent MS guy and work the stuff out. I've road tuned a handfull of cars and they run better than stock, with no hick-ups, and my mpg went up 6MPG by running lots of advance and 15:1afr. . Something may be wrong with the construction if its dieing randomly. 
It doesn't take countless hours to tune the car. I've road tuned turbo cars in about 3 hours, then another 2-hours on a dyno to get spark right and you're done.


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## epjetta (Sep 19, 2006)

*Re: (1.8TTURBO)*

http://www.emsnorthamerica.com/ i do alot of ms setups but i feel for a more complicated setup like a 1.8t with cop and crank trigger that a stinger setup would be way better. i run one in my own race car.


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## troze1200 (Oct 12, 2000)

*Re: (epjetta)*


_Quote, originally posted by *epjetta* »_http://www.emsnorthamerica.com/ i do alot of ms setups but i feel for a more complicated setup like a 1.8t with cop and crank trigger that a stinger setup would be way better. i run one in my own race car.









whats so different from cops+crank trigger to single coil and whatever pickup? COPS fire off the igniter the same as any coil and you get the crank signal from somewhere. I see them as pretty straight forward.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (troze1200)*


_Quote, originally posted by *troze1200* »_
whats so different from cops+crank trigger to single coil and whatever pickup? COPS fire off the igniter the same as any coil and you get the crank signal from somewhere. I see them as pretty straight forward. 

indeed. i think as far as overall install time the difference is minor, once everything has been verified to work the COP setup wont take any longer to tune.


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## NOTORIOUS VR (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_not knocking you don, but compared to the other car enthusiasts out there our crowd is a joke when it come to tuning. there are VERY FEW that can even do it, im all for the pre made chip flashes for people that want some power and warranty. but these guys that are doing all this building then having someone else tune the car its like wtf knowing how EVERYTHING runs and works is the whole point of modifying cars, so we can cast off the factory shackles and have full control of our cars... not just trade them for slightly larger ones 

You're forgetting one thing... Some people just don't care to take all the time to learn what needs to be done and how to do it. Some people don't have the time, others don't care to even bother if there is already a ready-made solution.
Everyone here crusifying people for not knowing how their cars work need to relax. If the guy wants to do cookie-cutter mods to his car to make it fast why is that so wrong?


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## troze1200 (Oct 12, 2000)

*Re: (NOTORIOUS VR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NOTORIOUS VR* »_
You're forgetting one thing... Some people just don't care to take all the time to learn what needs to be done and how to do it. Some people don't have the time, others don't care to even bother if there is already a ready-made solution.
Everyone here crusifying people for not knowing how their cars work need to relax. If the guy wants to do cookie-cutter mods to his car to make it fast why is that so wrong?


If he wants to cut a check for this crap, why is he even asking on a forum?


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

whats WRONG with it is that to many of the vw guys get this elitist mindset and talk smack about honda and subaru owners dsm owners etc.... when most of those guys (the serious ones) know more about their cars and cars in general and how they work then a good 90% of 1.8T owners that read some of the text, do all the mods their told to do, the regurgitate information with no first hand knowledge. i love the scene man but i hate the posers, that talk down to people that actually KNOW how to tune and build cars from the ground up, just because they bought a kit that makes x amount of horse power. i long for the day when VW can claim 300 400+ hp from an NA motor , where complete control of our cars is possible.... but when everyone just conforms to the tried and true, then has the attitude of "oh were better then the honda guys because i paid x amount of dollars more for my kit and tune" that gets our scene nowhere, its a big reason why even though i own a mk4 i dislike many who do. i instead choose to hang out with mk1 and mk2, occasionally mk3 guys, because they know more about their engines , how to tune them, and dont have a terrible case of small man complex


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## NOTORIOUS VR (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_whats WRONG with it is that to many of the vw guys get this elitist mindset and talk smack about honda and subaru owners dsm owners etc.... when most of those guys (the serious ones) know more about their cars and cars in general and how they work then a good 90% of 1.8T owners that read some of the text, do all the mods their told to do, the regurgitate information with no first hand knowledge. i love the scene man but i hate the posers, that talk down to people that actually KNOW how to tune and build cars from the ground up, just because they bought a kit that makes x amount of horse power. i long for the day when VW can claim 300 400+ hp from an NA motor , where complete control of our cars is possible.... but when everyone just conforms to the tried and true, then has the attitude of "oh were better then the honda guys because i paid x amount of dollars more for my kit and tune" that gets our scene nowhere, its a big reason why even though i own a mk4 i dislike many who do. i instead choose to hang out with mk1 and mk2, occasionally mk3 guys, because they know more about their engines , how to tune them, and dont have a terrible case of small man complex

Ok while I agree that the quick and easy mindset isn't a progressive one. But a lot of Honda, DSM, etc guys ARE the same way. They get OTHER people to tune their cars.
You're talking about the few people that take major interest in actually building up a car from the ground up. Not everyone wants to do this, or has the time to do this. 
For that reason they can go out and buy a kit and a tune and be damn fast. If their car is fast what difference does it make how it got there?
If the person claims they did all the work themselves then they're just flat out lying. But I bet you most don't claim that here.
You all are getting way too uptight about something you care too much about. Not everyone feels the way you do.
You're complaining about how the Honda/DSM guys can tune their own cars. Well guess what, the VAG cars of the same vintage 'could' be doing the same thing. But we're not because no one has actually wanted to do that as keeping it behind closed doors makes a lot more money for the guys that makes chips/tunes currently.
So instead of complaining about it why don't you guys do something constructive and save the VAG scene by getting all the guys who have any Motronic knowledge (there are a ton of people out there who do) and make a program/hardware so the VAG guys can be on the same level as the Honda/DSM guys you speak of.
Simple right?


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## NOTORIOUS VR (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (troze1200)*


_Quote, originally posted by *troze1200* »_
If he wants to cut a check for this crap, why is he even asking on a forum?

Don't be hard headed, a forum is here to ask questions. That's what he did. He asked for advise. Pro's and Con's. This was taken so off topic by you people b**ching and complaining about how the VAG scene is going nowhere because people buy premade software.
That's the biggest piece of horse dodo I've ever heard. EVERY automotive market has companies (for instance like C2) that make software for cookie-cutter mods. There's nothing wrong with that at all.


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

no, not simple... because when we do were blasted for not being a big company like unitronic,etc..... the point is it does matter how the car got to its fast point. if you want a faster car, save all the upgrade money .. and BUY A FASTER CAR. we modify our cars to push the envelope and to be able to have complete control over our engines.... all too often is the case people want bragging rights. that is NOT what being an enthusiast is all about. if that is want you want then please leave the vortex as you have nothing useful to contribute other then stoking arguments and initiating pissing contests


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

i can tell by your rhetoric that you ,notorious vr, are a person that would rather spend x amount of dollars to be able to say you have x amount of power, and as such this conversation will go nowhere with you, you are set in your ways and obviously are not inclined to actually learn a thing or two about how cars work and run. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## NOTORIOUS VR (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_i can tell by your rhetoric that you ,notorious vr, are a person that would rather spend x amount of dollars to be able to say you have x amount of power, and as such this conversation will go nowhere with you, you are set in your ways and obviously are not inclined to actually learn a thing or two about how cars work and run. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Yea you're right. I don't tune cars at all. I know nothing about cars work, nor do I know how to tune stand alones.


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

i was being sarcastic... i am just surprise the stance your taking........ i mean we can all read your sig dude


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## troze1200 (Oct 12, 2000)

I'd love to cut a check to get my car together because I don't have a lot of time. 

You're not going to find anyone will to sell you MS, installed, turnkey.


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

and honestly i dont want to


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (troze1200)*


_Quote, originally posted by *troze1200* »_
You're not going to find anyone will to sell you MS, installed, turnkey. 

if its a car that someone can drop off at my place, thats how we do it


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## NOTORIOUS VR (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_i was being sarcastic... i am just surprise the stance your taking........ i mean we can all read your sig dude









Sorry my sarcasm detector must have not been working... I mean, we've all already taken this thread so off topic the OP probably wants to sell his car








There's no reason for anyone no to come out with something like Crome/ectune for early VAG cars. Getting blasted because you're not a big company? LOL who cares... Once people can tune their own stock ECU's no one will care what the big guys used to say.
BUT... even if there is one day a tuning solution, there will still be people that will buy a pretuned software. Why? Because just having the tools to tune a car doesn't mean you car 'tune' a car


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## troze1200 (Oct 12, 2000)

*Re: (ValveCoverGasket)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ValveCoverGasket* »_
if its a car that someone can drop off at my place, thats how we do it









Well, you and DIYautotune, but that's all I know of. Its incredibly rare...or maybe I'm just wrong.


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## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

It's very easy to tune the engine these days as there methods common to most turbo engines.
With a good wideband, you can use a lambda target table and closed loop and it will autotune itself, providing you use enough fuel adjustment authority.
Lambda targets, we know need to be 20AF on over run (injectors off essentially), ~14.5 on a cruise, ~13.3 at atmospheric and ~ 12.5 on boost, gradually reducing to 12 - 11.8 as boost increases.
Cold startup, hot and cold throttle transients and part throttle bucking are all variables that cannot be done (properly) on a dyno. So it's not a big deal tuning those yourself on the way to and from work each day. Good tuners would do that themselves on the road with a laptop anyway.
For a base map, get it idling first and see what the AF is. Then from there you can plot a fuel map based on the predicted boost curve of your turbo, so you might for example want to put a lot of fuel duty in at 3500rpm with 60% throttle. Once a rough base map is done, Lambda target will take care of the rest and you can monitor the correction table and make adjustments to the base map.
With regard to timing, most turbo engines are high 30s in the low load columns and mid to low 20s on boost.
They're good starting points to get you on the learning curve and it's very satisfying getting the engine running exactly how you want it.
Then when or if you want to, you can get a full throttle dyno tune done to get the timing spot on for peak torque.
Good standalones have very comprehensive diagnostics and data logging, so you can't go wrong really.....so long as you know what to look for, which is half the problem as mentioned. Some people don't have the time or inclination, but for those who do, it's great fun!

The problem I have with Motronic is not being able to do anything with it and the over sensitivity to MAF placement and the issues it causes.


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## [email protected] (Sep 8, 2008)

*Re: (troze1200)*


_Quote, originally posted by *troze1200* »_
Well, you and DIYautotune, but that's all I know of. Its incredibly rare...or maybe I'm just wrong. 

Just to clarify things, we do build complete wire-in units and you can special order them with various mods, but we currently do not build a 100% plug and play system for VWs. Depends on how "turn-key" a system you're looking for.


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## [email protected] (Apr 25, 2007)

*Re: (kevhayward)*

How much is dyno time? How about paying to pass emissions? There are are pluses and minuses to both, its up to the end user which meets their needs. For an average setup, then our software is fine for 90% of the market. For a truly custom setup, then sure go standalone and enjoy.


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## rodney_dubs (Mar 2, 2008)

not to mention, on those days when you DON'T want a fancy car, you just want your car to freaking start because its 5 degrees outside and you just shoveled two feet of snow off the top, and you are hoping you can ram the rest of the way down the driveway... Well- that's the day when your cold start map will flood your engine.







Then you will be out there in the snow with your laptop freezing your butt off watching the a/f's and trying to get it to start, then fix the map. So much for that exam you needed to be at.....
For a daily driver, it is so nice to not have to worry about all that and just have a car that always starts, always runs right, right out of the box. 
Don't get me wrong, i HAVE daily driven cars with standalone. After enough days like that, eventually you will have it all ironed out and then everything is great. I'm just saying unless your setup is something wild that won't work on what's available off the shelf, the files are a really nice way to go. 
Also, by the time you buy: megasquirt, wb02, wiring supplies, new connectors, a few new sensors, the various "mod" kits for the megasquirt- well you are basically at the same price of one of these files, and that's before any dyno time, and without putting any value on your own time.


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## troze1200 (Oct 12, 2000)

*Re: (rodney_dubs)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rodney_dubs* »_not to mention, on those days when you DON'T want a fancy car, you just want your car to freaking start because its 5 degrees outside and you just shoveled two feet of snow off the top, and you are hoping you can ram the rest of the way down the driveway... Well- that's the day when your cold start map will flood your engine.







Then you will be out there in the snow with your laptop freezing your butt off watching the a/f's and trying to get it to start, then fix the map. So much for that exam you needed to be at.....
For a daily driver, it is so nice to not have to worry about all that and just have a car that always starts, always runs right, right out of the box. 
Don't get me wrong, i HAVE daily driven cars with standalone. After enough days like that, eventually you will have it all ironed out and then everything is great. I'm just saying unless your setup is something wild that won't work on what's available off the shelf, the files are a really nice way to go. 
Also, by the time you buy: megasquirt, wb02, wiring supplies, new connectors, a few new sensors, the various "mod" kits for the megasquirt- well you are basically at the same price of one of these files, and that's before any dyno time, and without putting any value on your own time. 

My car started up just fine in Santa Fe in 8* cold after setting it once. It took about 1-day to get everything perfect, then all I have left is dyno time for the spark map. I found a few who will do the spark map for $450 on an eddy control dyno. Either you have the car tuned correctly, or you don't. 
I've had the pleasure of getting out of a stock 1.8 miata and getting into a 1.6 with a recently tuned 1.6 on MS and it felt like a damn Ferrari in comparison. It was crazy to see what 91-octane and some spark advance could do. It was night and day. The tuned car revved like an animal.


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## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

*Re: (troze1200)*


_Quote, originally posted by *troze1200* »_My car started up just fine in Santa Fe in 8* cold after setting it once. It took about 1-day to get everything perfect, then all I have left is dyno time for the spark map. I found a few who will do the spark map for $450 on an eddy control dyno. Either you have the car tuned correctly, or you don't. 

Exactly. OE ECU tuners sing their praises on their software starting and running like stock in any condition. Well, so what. So does my Standalone map which didn't long to perfect at all.
Bosch already sunk huge investment into idling and part throttle manners. All Chip tuners do is manipulate and modify code that is already there. Of course it's going to run like stock, it can't run any other way.
Some of us want better than stock, but this is always going to be a debate where the two methods never agree.
"400whp daily. NO Cels. 30mpg. Can you do this?" Yes, I can thanks.
Tuning is not the black art some tuners like us to think it is.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (troze1200)*


_Quote, originally posted by *troze1200* »_
I've had the pleasure of getting out of a stock 1.8 miata and getting into a 1.6 with a recently tuned 1.6 on MS and it felt like a damn Ferrari in comparison. It was crazy to see what 91-octane and some spark advance could do. It was night and day. The tuned car revved like an animal.

its funny how much of a difference a specific tune for 92 octane will make on most economy cars that had a pretty conservative setup from the factory http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

pass emmissions? thats a joke right? most cars making 400+ hp CANT pass emmissions regardless of the tune they are running. .... you can only be so lean at those levels


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_pass emmissions? thats a joke right? most cars making 400+ hp CANT pass emmissions regardless of the tune they are running. .... you can only be so lean at those levels









i think it depends...if they only check idle, you could toss a cat on it and lean it out some, might work. horsepower wouldnt really make a difference there as long as you could control whatever huge injectors you were running


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

thats my point... most high boost applications run the injectors slightly rich.... if your like me and all they do is plug in to see if the obd2 has codes then let you go your lucky.... others that have to go though the sniffer... not so much


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## troze1200 (Oct 12, 2000)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_pass emmissions? thats a joke right? most cars making 400+ hp CANT pass emmissions regardless of the tune they are running. .... you can only be so lean at those levels









When do you make boost during an emissions check? This is another myth. If the car can cruise at 14.7, then it will most likely pass emissions.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_thats my point... most high boost applications run the injectors slightly rich.... 

no reason to when youre cruising or at idle.


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## clarksongli (Nov 4, 2003)

*Re: (ValveCoverGasket)*

just a heads up

some people require the stock motronic setup.....most states, if you are 96+, the obd2 system in place.....you cannot scan a car that does not have a obd2 ecu, MS doesn't simulate that








secondly, they only tail pipe sniff obd1 cars.....and the guy that talks about "running lean," that is a terrible thing to do at emissions....lean burns push combustion to >2500F, at which point oxides of nitrogen form....

i have done both sides of the fence, ran a 3cylinder turbo on MS, S/C VR6 on MS, 16v on stock motronic, turbo aba on c2 motronic, AWW1.8T on motronic, and finally i am doing a AEB 1.8T on possibly unitronics or C2 jeff Atwood style
the point of this is that there are benefits and downfalls to both.....its all about the time you want to spend, the time you HAVE, the amount of cash you have to spend, blah blah blah
this argument will not go anywhere, cuz there is no right answer.....lock this up mods


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

lock what up? their is a right or wrong answer.... if you want to build and tune an engine come here and discuss it.... if you want to "mod" and existing engine the go ahead, but dont put down what you dont understand... which is EXACTLY what people do to MS... also why lock this up? its a good discussion that hasnt resorted to blatant name calling and vulgarness most threads do on this forum.... i say leave it open and we continue the discussion, even if it has become redundent, its hurting noone, and could yeild some insite to those who dont know anybetter


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## troze1200 (Oct 12, 2000)

*Re: (clarksongli)*


_Quote, originally posted by *clarksongli* »_the point of this is that there are benefits and downfalls to both.....its all about the time you want to spend, the time you HAVE, the amount of cash you have to spend, blah blah blah

yeah, but you forgot that people who run MS make more testosterone. I need all I can get in a miata.


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## renegdewolf (Aug 12, 2007)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_whats WRONG with it is that to many of the vw guys get this elitist mindset and talk smack about honda and subaru owners dsm owners etc.... when most of those guys (the serious ones) know more about their cars and cars in general and how they work then a good 90% of 1.8T owners that read some of the text, do all the mods their told to do, the regurgitate information with no first hand knowledge. i love the scene man but i hate the posers, that talk down to people that actually KNOW how to tune and build cars from the ground up, just because they bought a kit that makes x amount of horse power. i long for the day when VW can claim 300 400+ hp from an NA motor , where complete control of our cars is possible.... but when everyone just conforms to the tried and true, then has the attitude of "oh were better then the honda guys because i paid x amount of dollars more for my kit and tune" that gets our scene nowhere, its a big reason why even though i own a mk4 i dislike many who do. i instead choose to hang out with mk1 and mk2, occasionally mk3 guys, because they know more about their engines , how to tune them, and dont have a terrible case of small man complex

I've personally done the Stand alone On a 5.0 Stang. Highly modded. I knew ever part and ever sound that came from the car. but it took a lot of time to load different custom tunes that my father and I made. I just don't have that kind of time. so don't assume that b/c most of us go with plug, burn and go method that we don't know our cars. I may bee a little green with Turbo VWs, but not to cars in general. I do 90% of all my work and still get to spend time with my family.


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

and thats fine.... ive got a problem with the guys that do the chip method... then come out and just trash stuff they dont understand


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## kevhayward (Mar 13, 2007)

I don't see anyone trashing anything....


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

fortunately this ISNT the MK4 black hole of a forum


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## rodney_dubs (Mar 2, 2008)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_and thats fine.... ive got a problem with the guys that do the chip method... then come out and just trash stuff they dont understand

I've got 3 cars on standalone and one on unitronics. I would never swap the unitronics and ME7 for standalone on that car unless the setup changed to something the file couldn't deal with. 
I've run megasquirt, autronic, haltech, and me7, so there you go. It has nothing to do with us being "lazy" or not knowing this or that, it has to do with the fact that some of us put a high value on our time, and when you can get 95% of the performance with 5% of the work and spend less money as well... It's a no brainer. I hate to burst your bubble, but ME7, and the off the shelf ME7 files, work VERY well.


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

omg, stoping being but hurt chip guys...... my point was at the kiddies in the mk 4 forums... not vets that have used SEM and now use a chip just to save time... theres a HHUGE difference


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## NOTORIOUS VR (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_omg, stoping being but hurt chip guys...... my point was at the kiddies in the mk 4 forums... not vets that have used SEM and now use a chip just to save time... theres a HHUGE difference

No one is hurt here but you.. but you're complaining about crap that no one here cares about.
I don't frequent the MKIV forums at all, so if you're saying that it's only the MKIV forum people that lie through their teeth, then why are you still in this thread hijacking it?
In more ways then one ME7 > MS alone for the fact that MS is the bottom of the barrel stand alone. Yes it works, but it's nowhere near as good as a Motronic ECU that is fact. 
If you have a setup that someone make a file for and you can make 500WHP with. Do you think you'll make MORE with an MS on the car? Do you think the car will run any better with MS on the car no it won't.


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## troze1200 (Oct 12, 2000)

*Re: (NOTORIOUS VR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NOTORIOUS VR* »_If you have a setup that someone make a file for and you can make 500WHP with. Do you think you'll make MORE with an MS on the car? Do you think the car will run any better with MS on the car no it won't.

max power isn't the nice part about SEM. The all-out perfection is. I wish C2 were around when I had a turbo vw though.


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## NOTORIOUS VR (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (troze1200)*


_Quote, originally posted by *troze1200* »_
max power isn't the nice part about SEM. The all-out perfection is. I wish C2 were around when I had a turbo vw though. 

Everyone has their own opinion about the nice parts though.
Sure an SEM you can tinker with yourself (if that's what you want, although a lot/most get someone else to tune their SEM's and leave it be).
You can add functions, whatever. I'm not downplaying the role of an aftermarket ECU in any way. But the fact of the matter is, if you have a setup that someone already has a program for, that will run like stock otherwise and costs less money with less work involved. Why would you WANT to dick around with an SEM at all?
Heck I wouldn't even bother and I have all the resources so it almost wouldn't cost me anything except my time and some $$$ in dyno time. Yet if I really have nothing to gain from that by going aftermarket, and loose my time why bother?
To say I'm a real enthusiast? Please










_Modified by NOTORIOUS VR at 12:05 AM 9-18-2008_


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

whatever.. call ms crap. but hawk you vems at will


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## Cpsmith3 (Jul 31, 2007)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*

Another advantage that none of the chip tuners are prepared to do is have mappable auxiliary outputs.
I for instance want full boost at 3000rpms, yet I don't want the the torque to die out top end.
I am only going to get this if I have a big turbo, and nitrous oxide with some sort of controller that is based on boost and rpm's. MS does that, but I also want water methanol to keep knock in check, MS will take care of that. 
Many R32 owners are having problems with a resistor in the fans burning out. I can send a pulsed signal to the fans to control them.
Look at standalone as an investment of time and money that will pay happy dividends throughout your entire tuning experience.


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## NOTORIOUS VR (Sep 25, 2002)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_whatever.. call ms crap. but hawk you vems at will

MS is good at one thing.. being cheap. It's not really automotive grade stuff. The connectors, and the way it's put together isn't automotive grade. If you're using an MS on a $5k+ motor you're absolutely saving money in the wrong spot.
VEMS at least has a proper SMD build process behind it, with automotive grade components. The hardware used is much better then in MS.
MS (aka the calculator):








VS
VEMS:


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

what qualifies you to say that the ms is not as good as the vems ? seriously do you design circut boards? because im pretty sure i work closely with intel and honeywell and while yes the VEMs board is nicer.... its built offsite in a factory, not homemade. the components used in the MS system are FINE, unless you can provide evidence to back up your claim. it is just that, a claim, not fact


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## Cpsmith3 (Jul 31, 2007)

*Re: (2LTurbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *2LTurbo* »_what qualifies you to say that the ms is not as good as the vems ? seriously do you design circut boards? because im pretty sure i work closely with intel and honeywell and while yes the VEMs board is nicer.... its built offsite in a factory, not homemade. the components used in the MS system are FINE, unless you can provide evidence to back up your claim. it is just that, a claim, not fact

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I would agree. 
This is from MS's site
"The circuit has also implemented automotive temperature grade components (-40 to +125 degrees C); using the MS-II daughtercard and an extended-temp serial driver extend the temperature range to full automotive rating. The results of this is obvious - increased reliability."
SO please don't take this offensively NOTORIOUS VR, but your argument is completely flawed.
What would be absolutely great is to have a wiring harness adapter to plug our stock harnesses directly into any of these standalone units.
That would make the transition to standalone much easier and more acceptable for people who are pressed for time.
Cheers,









_Modified by flyboy3069 at 1:16 PM 9-19-2008_


_Modified by flyboy3069 at 1:23 PM 9-19-2008_


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## 2LTurbo (Aug 26, 2008)

x2 not bagging on you notorious its just misinformation that is being put out


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## NOTORIOUS VR (Sep 25, 2002)

Did you guys even read my post? or are you imagining the things I'm typing?
I said the MS isn't using automotive grade connectors (which it's not) and the way it is put together isn't automotive grade. Tell me what you want, but Joe Schmoe slapping MS's together isn't exactly automotive grade quality. Yes the VEMS is made in a factory offsite and not home made. That's exactly why it is better then MS.
It's not meant to be as durable as a more expensive aftermarket ECU, or even an OEM ECU. That IS fact.
You can't tell me that for $300 you're getting the exact same quality as a VEMS. Or, lets go one further, Motec, Autronic, AEM, etc, etc.
They're all built A LOT better then an MS. So again I say MS is fine for small projects. But if you have a big build why would you bother with something like MS? It just doesn't make any sense at all when there are a ton of better options out there.


_Modified by NOTORIOUS VR at 6:33 PM 9-19-2008_


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: (flyboy3069)*


_Quote, originally posted by *flyboy3069* »_
What would be absolutely great is to have a wiring harness adapter to plug our stock harnesses directly into any of these standalone units.
That would make the transition to standalone much easier and more acceptable for people who are pressed for time.


you mean like Lugtronic







(VEMS based)


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (NOTORIOUS VR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NOTORIOUS VR* »_
I said the MS isn't using automotive grade connectors (which it's not) and the way it is put together isn't automotive grade. 

the connectors arent automotive grade, and its probably susceptible to more noise because of the layout of the board (though id question how many of the other units out there are really designed/tested for this anyhow...), and there are fewer protective circuits built into the thing to prevent blown components...
i work for a heavy duty diesel oem, we do some pretty unspeakable things to our engine controllers, and id doubt that any of the aftermarket standalone units (aside from maybe motec or something really top of the line) would be on par with an oem ecu as far as susceptibility to noise and circuit protection is concerned
the creators of MS also offer a preassembled unit if youre concerned with people's ability to solder the things together...check out ms 3.57








granted, its not as easily expandable, but the options are out there if folks are that concerned with it...


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## NOTORIOUS VR (Sep 25, 2002)

I'll be honest, that actually looks half decent. 
But then just like the old one, if you want extra outputs do you have to start modifying the board? 
How many ign/inj outs does the newest revision have?


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: (NOTORIOUS VR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NOTORIOUS VR* »_I'll be honest, that actually looks half decent. 
But then just like the old one, if you want extra outputs do you have to start modifying the board? 
How many ign/inj outs does the newest revision have?

that might be part of the issue here...you cant base an ecu's quality simply on how it looks (see my first post above regarding short circuit protection and noise).
youre right you have to start modifying it to get more I/O, as it has just 1 ignition output, just like the base v3 board - good enough for 90% of the setups out there that people run MS on


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## Cpsmith3 (Jul 31, 2007)

*Re: (NOTORIOUS VR)*

Sorry NOTORIOUS VR, I didn't see the "connectors" part. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 1.8TTURBO (Oct 1, 2006)

well i've decide i'm going with a "chip"
so now i'm bw unitronic or c/tapp eurodyne
i think i'm going with eurodyne since what i've heard is as good as unitronic and cost almost $200 cheaper


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## troze1200 (Oct 12, 2000)

*Re: (NOTORIOUS VR)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NOTORIOUS VR* »_If you have a setup that someone make a file for and you can make 500WHP with. Do you think you'll make MORE with an MS on the car? Do you think the car will run any better with MS on the car no it won't.

max power isn't the nice part about SEM. The all-out perfection is. I wish C2 were around when I had a turbo vw though.


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