# VRT piping size



## VeeRar6ix (Apr 5, 2007)

*VRT boost piping size*

Hi guys
Have a 24vT with AR50 intake, super H wheel... .69 exhaust housing with stage 2 wheel...
My question is... I was thinking of using 3" piping right through the entire system... or 2.5" - 2.75" intake turbo side pipe and 3" intake TB side pipe...
Thanks guys...


_Modified by VeeRar6ix at 12:20 AM 9-6-2007_


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

*Re: VRT boost piping size (VeeRar6ix)*

2.5" should be good enough ... i think 3" is overkill


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## VeeRar6ix (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: VRT boost piping size (PjS860ct)*

thanks man... bigger piping would mean slower/sluggish boost response too?


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: VRT boost piping size (VeeRar6ix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VeeRar6ix* »_thanks man... bigger piping would mean slower/sluggish boost response too?


350Hp= 2.5
400Hp-500hp = 2,75
500hp+ go 3inch http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## mrbikle (Jul 2, 2005)

i have 2.5 hot side then 3 inch cold side...its too much for my application...full 2.5 unless your making huge numbers


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## VeeRar6ix (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: (mrbikle)*

thanks guys!








no big numbers for now... running crappy oem plastic intake







so I'll never see above 10ish psi








custom building one soon


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (VeeRar6ix)*

things to take in consideration
1:Flow is killed by many area changes = keep as similar size as you can and as few connections as you can

2:When sertain amount of hp is made it will become restrictive so small area will actually kill big hp.
its accivable BUT at higher boost level PRE turbo compressor outlet
3:Big bends and smart plumbing will give you better response and you will be able to run bigger piping without that split second lag

So i think 2.5 hot and 3 inch cold is a perfect setup for even a 300hp car. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VeeRar6ix (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

BAM!!! 2.5 hot and 3" cold is what I was consedering too... 300WHP is my goal for now








thanks...


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (VeeRar6ix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VeeRar6ix* »_BAM!!! 2.5 hot and 3" cold is what I was consedering too... 300WHP is my goal for now








thanks...

i sent a message to the intercooler piping calc/design guy in my laboraty.
Ill post info when i recive it

Its about 30psi boost in 60mm inner diam pipe with 3meter lenght and 800cfm







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## VeeRar6ix (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Will wait... thanks!


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## mrbikle (Jul 2, 2005)

*Re: (VeeRar6ix)*

picture of my 2.5 to 3 inch setup on a 12v


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## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (mrbikle)*

I have 2.75" hot side to 3" after the intercooler http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## joevwfox (Feb 20, 2007)

If you use too large a diameter you will loose either flow velocity or psi. (according to Bernoulli) Plus the more bends and expansions/contractions will create more flow problems.


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## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

*Re: (joevwfox)*


_Quote, originally posted by *joevwfox* »_If you use too large a diameter you will loose either flow velocity or psi. (according to Bernoulli) Plus the more bends and expansions/contractions will create more flow problems. 

In pipe flow, velocity is largely a function of pressure gradient. Increasing velocity means you are also increasing your dp/dx... aka losing more pressure per unit length. Bends are a necessary evil. They are considered a "minor" flow loss (which it seems you know if you know Bernoulli...) instead of head loss, which is loss due to length itself. In most thermo/fluids related things that I have seen, you were better off being slightly too big than too small.


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## SilverTrek12v (Dec 28, 2005)

will there be less pressure drop from the intercooler if pipping after is bigger?Does the IC end tank discharge need to be bigger?


_Modified by SilverTrek12v at 9:30 PM 9-7-2007_


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (SilverTrek12v)*

Did some fast calculation myself.
Could be incorrect due to all conversion from Lb/min to litre per min and from meter per second to mph etc.
BWTF .... Books say do not exeed MACH 0.4 
Mach 1 is ~761Mph
So MACH 0.4 is ~304Mph
304Mph is ~136meter per second .
So this is the aim to be below

At wot/redline My turbo boost ~56Lb/min = 25.4kilos a minute
1 kilo of air is ~ 1m3 or 35,3 cubic foot.
So its 25.4M3 or 896.6cubic foot per minute.
To get Mach 0.4 or 136m per second at 896cmf that could be anything from 500-590Hp depending on temp and fuel








So 56Lb/min * something between 9-10,5 = Hp
60mm/2,36inch INNER diameter piping will result in 148meter per second.
This is normal thin whall stainless piping ...alu piping is often have thicker walls so its comparable to 2.75 inch outer.
So thats not what we whant for our 500hp project.

So what piping will keep ME under Mach 0.4 ?
A 63mm inner diam a.k.a 2.5 inch inner diam piping will do Mach 0.4 at 56lb/min.
So im going for 2.75 outer with ~65mm inner for HOT side
And 3 inch for Cold side .

No temp etc is in this calculation.
Max Hp before it goes way to high!
*So its better to make a bigger dimater pipe with smarter shorter routing with less bends and less difference in area.*
If you use alu piping make sure its required inner diameter.
Stailess steel is often in thin wall
500-550hp = 3inch piping with atleast 2,75inch inner diam
450-500hp = 2.75inch piping with atleast 2.5inch inner diam.
400-450hp = 2,5inch piping with atleast 2,3 inch inner diam 
350-400hp = 2.25inch piping with atleast 2.1inch inner diam
250-300hp = 2inch piping with atleast 1.8inch inner diam

http://www.eesiflo.com/flow_calculator_01.html
http://hemsidor.torget.se/user...ength
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/....html
_Modified by [email protected] at 9:56 AM 9-8-2007_


_Modified by [email protected] at 9:56 AM 9-8-2007_


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Got my pipe size confirmed.
So this size calc is official.

But the lab guy developing our IC pipes at work said that bends+area difference+crappy silicone bands/hoses are like a 0.02psi each
So its like 5psi of power missing even on a good pipingsystem








bwtf im gonna do a all out power IC kit with piping.
Ill post pics in a couple of weeks


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: VRT boost piping size (VeeRar6ix)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VeeRar6ix* »_Hi guys
Have a 24vT with AR50 intake, super H wheel... .69 exhaust housing with stage 2 wheel...
My question is... I was thinking of using 3" piping right through the entire system... or 2.5" - 2.75" intake turbo side pipe and 3" intake TB side pipe...
Thanks guys...


Stage 2 is a T3 turbine wheel, measure the wheel again and find out what you really have in there so that you know for future reference. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Ok
Here are first pics of new intercooler setup.
i re-did some thing from last system and tried to use very trick ive found in the test lab at work.
*Problem 1:*
With 50mm turbo outlet you dont want to go to 70mm that hot side piping size is on a short distance and you dont want to have a crappy 90* bend that way to short just like most aftermarket companies put on their kits.
Horrible Lshaper thing








*70mm piping is minimum on that side to keep correct gas speed at 600hp*
I found a cast pice at wotk that went from 50mm to 70mm in a 90* bend.
It was huge but i manged to get it and keep the 7* maximum "area change" angle http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

*Problem 2:*
You dont want alot of bends , sharp bends OR lots of crappy silicone hoses with bad edges that hurt flow.
Ive managed to go with a 70mm pipe over the engine in a 45* angle aming for passenger side head ligth http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Then going past he headligt with small bends and adding the intercooler pipe as far up as i could to get to things.
*One *for having shorter piping with inlet high up on IC.
*two* You dont want inlets to be at same height on both side due to air distrubution shall be over entire core.
Air always takes the easiest path.
Super flow vs less flow but better cooling









Problem 3
You dont want area differences.
And having the 7* rule not going to apply on end tanks you need to make em as good as possilbe without going to big.
Nice radius with good flow vs small area change








I went with cutting up pipes to keep BEST bends possible and to get almost no crappy area change with superb distrubution.

problem 4
Cold side of IC could have went with 70mm.
BUT TB is over bore 76mm so why go with another crappy area change when you basicly already have F!"¤# it up with first IC hot side end tank.
So go with ´the same area as you TB and you got a win win situatuion.
No area change and less resistance.
So i went with 76mm before tb

And of course all pipe are made as short as possible.
And my rotings are as short as they could get.
I acctually removed atleast 700mm so the new larger IC piping is basibly the same area but with better flow , less resistance http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Problem 5
Most intercoolers are just mounted behind the front bumper without any type of air straighner or air scoop keeping the air from taking the easy path again......and easy path is not trough the cooling fins of interccoler.
So to get best possible cooling i reused last years front scoop for ic and its press fit on my Caractere making all air go throught the intercooler bumper http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

taste of what to come in a couple of weeks


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## V.R.Lvr (Mar 29, 2007)

Wow, some brains working over time in here.....


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (V.R.Lvr)*

Foffa that is some amazing piping work!

Can't wait to see the finished project!


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## rickyrunamuk (Sep 13, 2004)

Foffa. I'm curios as to why you choose to go air to air as opposed to an air to water setup?


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_bends+area difference+crappy silicone bands/hoses are like a 0.02psi each
So its like 5psi of power missing even on a good pipingsystem










huh?
you have 250 problems?


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## phatvw (Aug 29, 2001)

*Re: (TBT-Syncro)*

He probably meant 0.2PSI. 
Re air vs water intercooler.
Although you might think air-to-water is more efficient, consider the added weight of more coolant, heat exchanger, radiator, water pump, piping, etc. Air to air is lighter and simpler to maintain and probably results in a more competitive car overall.



_Modified by phatvw at 6:07 PM 2-26-2008_


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## rickyrunamuk (Sep 13, 2004)

I can see a front mount air to air being helpfull in a front wheel drive drag car. I have decided to go air to water for my raddo I will be using the spare tire well as a coolent tank location and running a cooling loop much like the old air cooled engined 911, oil coolers systems. I will document the weight of the total system and post it for refererence.


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (phatvw)*

Here is the full kit
*Short fat turbo inlet pice with diverter valve inlet* 
turbo inlet in 4.25inch
*Two long pices in upper part of picture* 
in 2.75 inch turbo hot side going over engine with the nice cast part from turbo outlet going from 2inch to 2.75 inch.
Big diff internally and making to horrible silicone conectors look even more silly.








This is made to make HP using small angle and big radius out of turbo. 
*Hot side inlet tank for ic* 
2.75 inch cone to a 3inch big radius tank for gettin good flow combined with good tank area.
Not to big but very smooth and deliver air high up in core for more even flow.
*Cold side tank*
3inch tank with smooth radius for maximum flow without making area to big when trying to keep the smooth angle.
Middle mounted outlet for great flow and trying to get best air distrubution .
*Cold side oulet and diverter valve outlet*
3inch piping with huge radius.
Yes im back to 710N








Entire kit only use 5 silicone conectors with smoothe hump on the pipe instead of the tupe of machined hump i used last year.
This shall be more flow friendly accoring to tests made on connectors


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## Sosl0w (Aug 21, 2003)

*Re: (rickyrunamuk)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rickyrunamuk* »_Foffa. I'm curios as to why you choose to go air to air as opposed to an air to water setup?

+1


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: (Sosl0w)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sosl0w* »_
+1 

WTA setup is great for dragracing. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
Using Ice and stuff before launch.
But for a daily driven car its a waste due to more complicated system with the water , pumps etc .
and when you drive the car over 30Mph the ATA is great.
And making the ATA setup efficient its a very good solution.

But with E85 and good race cooling core my IAT is way lower then it could ever be on WTA+C16 or similar.
30% more fuel cooling with totaly different cold slow burning fuel vs petrol.
E85 is da shizzle







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
104octan on pump


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## [email protected] (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Btw 
Here is local guy with WTA+ATA solution.
Propably the best solution fro drag racing








BTW again .... propably cost ~3000$ custom system


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## rickyrunamuk (Sep 13, 2004)

answered my question . thanks


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