# My *Terrible* Openroadtuning/Bagyard Experience



## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

I have a saga lasting quite awhile. Full of drama, intrigue, and espionage. Mostly just drama though. Actually no espionage at all. I realize I am bucking the trend by posting this, as bagyard is very popular and earns you scene points.

At the beginning of January I called up Andrew @ openroad tuning. I specified I was hoping he could quote me a price for an air ride setup for Jes's mk1. We talked for awhile, and it came to be that he/bagyard wanted to tap into the mk1 world a bit more. He gave me a stellar deal on the package. 2500$. I was told that I would have the product in 3 weeks to one month. Rad. (in the end, it took 5 months....five, yes 5)That gives me just enough time to finish the wheels. 

One month goes by. Spotty communication from Andrew. I didnt want to give him too hard of a time as I thought I got a good deal, and I didnt want to bother. At this time I had recieved the management, compressor, tank etc... It was good to have something in my hands. I was disappointed in the tank. too many holes for fittings, and the powdercoat was rubbed off in places. Kinda shotty. I was told "thats the way they come". I thought if I spent 2500$, one of the least expensive parts, the tank, would at least be high quality. 










you can see where it rubbed through on the pic. I basically just bought a new tank. Now I have this crappy one just sitting around hogging garage space. 

Two months go by. I don't even have the rear struts yet at this point. I am told they are in production, and that I should wait. I wait. Again, spotty and generally self righteous communication from Andrew. 

Three months go by. I have the rear struts at some point in this region of time. They look to be great quality! I myself have absolutely no experience with bags. I talk to Andrew about putting the bags in without running anything else. He says no problem, so I throw them in. I am later told by a myriad of people that you cant do this as the bags dont roll over properly. Great. I run the lines w/ Mike O and get them to roll over. I thought it looked great. somehow I thought I would be able to tuck rim on a 16 w/ bags. I get zero response from Andrew asking or inquiring about this at this time.










while this is indeed low. I thought for sure there would be more travel in the low department. what if i had 15's? or 14's? or even 13's? that right there is all the way aired out. not really as low as I'd hoped.

4 months go by. I am seriously the most impatient son of a bitch on this entire website. Period. I was told to be patient, things take time. Bilstein no longer makes struts for mk1's. (really?) I was told I shouldnt complain at all, as I got a hell of a good deal. Also, during this process I was told the fronts were done, and shipped. Several times actually. I was told, no problem, they are on the pallet. Then, I was told just kidding. They arent. I was told they had shipped to either andrew or me, at least 4 times. 

I never gave anyone a hard time during this. I finally, after 5 months, said, if I dont get this **** by X date, Im packing it all up in a box and sending it back to you. Amazingly, it all showed up that week. 

I got the fronts. The quality looks top notch. I'm jazzed. elated. the car basically goes on the ground. But...only in the front.










car is sitting on the axle at this time. theres another 1/2 inch to go. once notched, its on the ground.

what about the rear? 

not even close.










I email andrew a few days ago. He basically said he is too busy to deal with it. 

I'm done. I ordered camber plates and drop plates. I'll take care of this issue myself. Many of the "management" parts I got are cheap **** like the tank. The switches are crap. Basically radio shack momentary switches. I feel like I got hosed. The fronts and rears are not a matched pair. the rear doesnt even go low. When I ask about it, I get blown off. 

I know most of you won't believe I've been more than patient in this process due to my past, I really have. I wanted to explode... I really feel my patience showed through as weakness. Anyways, I just wanted to let everyone know about the experience I had. I've so effing disappointed. I really am. Excitement turned into frustration, and frustration to anger. Now I have all the stuff and it isnt right. When I ask about it, I get no response, or I get blown off.

If I were anyone else from here on out, I would choose to take my business elsewhere.

Is customer service dead? Doesnt anyone build a quality product and take care of their customer anymore? Or has the internet diluted any sense of personal responsibility here?

thanks for listening...


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## slobuny (Sep 20, 2007)

The whole process was a nightmare, I'm surprised Kris was as patient as he was with the situation. All would have been fine it wasn't excuse after excuse after excuse, if you can't get something done on time then just tell us.


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## KP @ the bat (Nov 2, 2008)

oh man. i can't wait to see how this turns out.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

already gotten a few encouraging consolatory PM's. sad others have had a similar experience. I never knew...


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## sighbat (Apr 25, 2010)

I think I mentioned multiple times throughout Jes' build thread that the customer service was retarded and that they should send everything back. Definitely fits the current trend of ****ty customer service, high prices, and low end product. Sad.


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## dmoney (Apr 10, 2003)

I have no personal experience with Open Road except an occasional IM with Eric or Andrew and both seem like good guys. But, I keep seeing people vouch for Andrew because he's "in school" and a "busy guy with everything in his life." Those excuses really bother me because school is no excuse to let your work or customer service slip. If that's the case then he needs to quit one or the other. Not a burn on Andrew at all, but if people are saying it's okay then I find that very weird.


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## Zorba2.0 (Jan 28, 2005)

This is why I am glad I went with Bag Riders and Airlift. During the group buy Will and Jesse were on the ball with letting us know the status of the struts. When they fell behind on delivery dates/production they let us all know asap. When a customer is told one date and the product is no where to be seen, an honest answer should be given. I wouldn't want to hear "it will be shipped next week" over and over again. If you don't know, then tell me you don't know and you are working on getting the issue resolved. Then tell me what the status is, like, "well the struts are still at customs" or "the bags got lost so the have to order more" blah blah blah. 

BTW your Rabbit looks amazing!


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## Flat Black VW (Nov 25, 2007)

well if hes busy because hes in school at least he should be done very soon and then he can help you some more.... Hope you get this figured out.


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## SuperBacon (May 8, 2006)

Usually when I see these kind of threads hating on a company, I usually tell the people to talk to the company first before blasting them in a thread. But it seems like you already have that covered. AirLift :thumb


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## insert clever name (Jul 26, 2009)

I can't comment on the service but bags aren't a magical low device. Get u der your car and see what's holding you up. It's not the bags that aren't goin low it's your car that is holding u up. Get a grinder and stfu


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## SuperBacon (May 8, 2006)

insert clever name said:


> I can't comment on the service but bags aren't a magical low device. Get u der your car and see what's holding you up. It's not the bags that aren't goin low it's your car that is holding u up. Get a grinder and stfu


 pretty sure he's smart enough to do that. And telling people to stfu is going to get you far around here


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## sbuogr (Jan 2, 2008)

eh.. this worries me.  

I'm sorry to hear about your bad experience, however the quality of BagYard is superb.


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## insert clever name (Jul 26, 2009)

That was motivation to do it. I doubt the bags are holding him up.


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## dubbinout (Jun 27, 2006)

insert clever name said:


> I can't comment on the service but bags aren't a magical low device. Get u der your car and see what's holding you up. It's not the bags that aren't goin low it's your car that is holding u up. Get a grinder and stfu


 Oh man. What a monumental day it will be when monitors come with built in sock'em boppers for occasions JUST like this.


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## Grig85 (Feb 11, 2006)

my friends cabby seems to go much lower in the back with bagyards. let me dig out a picture


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## Grig85 (Feb 11, 2006)

yep, his is deff much lower in the rear. he is could be tucking those 14 he said if tire wasnt in the way. maybe bump stops are holding you up???


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## insert clever name (Jul 26, 2009)

My point is if you ordered them and got them in a week and they went that low would u still be complaining or did the wait leave a bad taste in your mouth. People need to stop taking the Internet so seriously i was messing around it's gonna take work not just bolt in and go


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

If I got everything 4 months ago, I would have had 4 more months to sort through issues. I had planned on taking the car to southern worthersee. I just don't see that happening anymore. 

Are you seriously giving me a hard time dude? I waited 5 months for a product I was told I would have in 3 weeks to a month. I got jerked around at least once or twice every couple of weeks. I had 5-7 missed promised timelines. Give me a break dude. The product of the bags themselves seem like massively awesome quality. However, I'm not going to go celibate for 5 months just because I know because I waited I'm going to get laid at the very end instead of getting a BJ every day. 

Thanks for the support via IM's guys. I have 5 or 6 people in my inbox saying "thanks for posting that". It seems the nut swinging is so deep that people are scared to post about it. I'm sure Andrew is going to wig out at me for posting this. I kept quiet the whole time because I didnt know how things were going to be resolved and pan out in the end. This wasn't started to be a flame war. I just wanted people to know what went down. And it seems from the supportive IM's I have gotten, this isn't the anomaly. It's the norm. 

Mr Clever, what should I have done differently that would make you happy?


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## insert clever name (Jul 26, 2009)

I'm not sayin ur wrong about bein pissed for waiting. I would have prob cancelled the order way before 5 months. I just think ur stressing over the rears when you can probably fix it. Just one less thing to bother you. Wasn't giving u **** more like tough love


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

I am going to fix it. I won't just sit on my hands. That doesn't mean I can't point out that its ****ing wrong. I was also pointed out that when I ask questions I get blown off, or get incorrect solutions to problems.


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## [email protected] (Aug 22, 2006)

You know Kris, I tried gave you a great deal and tried my best to deliver a product in a timely manner but it just didn't happen the way it should have. I'm sitting in a field of 400 of my peers and I'm wearing a cap and gown. I wanted to have a nice enjoyable weekend and graduate. Just to clarify a few points here, we built you struts from scratch. As in from nothing and into something. I offered you a refund and you declined. I tried my best to handle this situation professionally and when your supplier doesn't have the product, guess who looks bad? Me. I truly am sorry that you had such a bad experience, I really am. However, I tried and tried to make you happy but I've failed. We try our best to deliver a premium product backed by outstanding customer service. Hell, I even called you today and I will call you later because I want to sort this out. 

Once again it amazes me how people will complain and complain when something is going people; but never do people say anything when something goes right. 

Kris, you have both my numbers and I look forward to hearing from you soon.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

After 3 months in, I figured gee, how much longer can it REALLY take? If I would have known, I woulda taken the refund, and ultra lows would be on the car right now. Its kinda like betting. Once you are in so much, its tough to just fold and move on. 

Andrew, I told you many times dude, when you make your problem, the customers problem... thats a problem. You were never honest and upfront with me, regardless if you were in the know or not. I can't even count how many times the stuff was "on the way man dont worry". You said bilstien no longer makes struts at about 2 months in. I showed you multiple links on where to get the struts to get **** taken care of. I could have ridden a bike to Austria and hand delivered shocks in the time frame things ended up taking. I know 100% that this is not entirely your fault. From my point of a view as a customer though, I just don't care. I know this reflects poorly on you and I feel guilty about that. However, it is what it is. This is what happened. I received very poor customer service. I didn't even get a legit apology from bagyard themselves. 

That **** _should_ have showed up on my doorstep a long time ago w/ a pair of still damp panties from some hot austrian girl w/ a personally signed photo attached. Instead, it didnt show up, didn't show up, hey its going to show up, didn't show up. DUDE ITS ON THE PALLET SWEET! Oh man, that pallet is stuck in customs. OH ITS ON THE WAY! Oh, wait... no... its not even on this pallet. Its still in austria. Ok...it'll be here next week...again.... etc etc etc. I seriously LOL'd with frustration at how absurd this whole process was.

I know you just say you were relaying information. Its irrelevant to me. I just didn't care. I took it under consideration the first couple times things went sour but after awhile, I dont care who's fault it is. I just want my stuff ya know? If I don't have the equipment required of me to do my work due to a company not getting it to me on time, its still my fault. It reflects poorly on me no matter who is to blame. If there is anyone for _you_ to be mad at, it is not me, its your supplier, bagyard. This **** going on all the time hurts your reputation. I would be seriously pissed at them if I were you. What happened to me is 100% unacceptable and unjustifiable. It is what it is man. I dont know what to say. Whether its your fault or not, it just is what it is. 

*If it helps to say it, as far as I know and if Andrew is being honest with me, This was mostly bagyards fault**.* they ****ed me. they ****ed andrew and continue to ruin his reputation. I dont know why he deals w/ this **** at all... I couldn't handle the stress.


 The main issue now is the rears don't dump low enough. I ordered a -1/2 a degree and a -1 camber shim kit for the rear to make up for the offset difference drop plates will give me. We'll see which shim works. car will easily hit the ground after that.

edit:
and to the folks that are continuing to PM me, thanks for the support. its too bad that more people aren't willing to voice their thoughts. the nutswing is a powerful thing.


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## .FLY GLI. (Sep 12, 2009)

I'm sorry to see you have been having all these problems. I've been in the same boat as you for a while. Promise after promise became let down after let down,


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## hMd (Jun 8, 2009)

i see that the UK wasnt/isnt the only one kept waiting months for a delivery 

feel for you mate as i know my mate had a similar experiance with bagyard not delivering on time (he waited 3-4 months i think)


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## [email protected] (Aug 22, 2006)

Just fyi hmd, your mate waited cause tuk ordered the wrong part. Can't blame Bagyard for an ordering mistake.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

why do I have supreme rear and bomber fronts? should I care? not sure what the difference is...


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## no vtec 4me (Aug 1, 2006)

didnt read the whole thread, but heres my 2 cents. 

Youre ordering air ride parts through one guy in the u.s. that has to get things shipped over on palets from Austria (i believe). Things take time and there is alot of room for errors with this process. Your package has to go through customs, and im sure Andrew gets bull ****ted as much as you thought you got bull ****ted through the whole experience. Ive heard my fair share of bad stories about bagyard and have heard alto of great stories. This next point may not apply to your situation, but another thing is alot of people have been getting in on bagyard groupbuys to save a few bucks. This is well and good, except group buys rely on you and 10-20 other people getting together, paying (people seem to suck at this), and getting orders through, then the ever so troublesome shipping through customs. Deal with it, if youre getting yourself into this know what youre going to get. 

Im in no way saying that i think openroad/bagyard is the greatest company out there, and im far from a nutswinger believe me. I actually order 99% of my parts else where for various reasons. Andrew has helped me out before, and from what ive experience is always there to search for something you need or answer any questons. People just dont understand that he is doing you all a HUGE favor by even getting bagyard products over here in the U.S. and alot of the process is out of his hands. 

 your welcome


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

hows the cushion on that nutswing? comfy?  afaik the pallets take about a week to get here overall at most. so it took 4 months 3 weeks to make my struts? why was I told 3 weeks to a month?


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## Aloha-boy (Mar 9, 2001)

I feel for your situation. The only thing I dislike about what you said is the "nutswinging" part. I have Bagyard bags and fortunately I had a great ordering experience, but I wouldn't call praising the product and service nutswinging! 

I read a post in the MKV forum where a guy put a $5000 deposit for a one off turbo/software kit for his car. After a few months, the company could not deliver the kit and kept $1500 for R&D and refunded him the rest. He spent $1500 and nothing to show for it. 

That story seems 10x worst than yours. The positive thing out of your situation is, you do have a great product to show for.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

yes, the actual strut quality seems fantastic. I havent driven on it yet, but I dont have any doubt about being pleased in that regard.

however, someone elses grief doesn't make me feel any better


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## Aloha-boy (Mar 9, 2001)

Digital K. said:


> yes, the actual strut quality seems fantastic. I havent driven on it yet, but I dont have any doubt about being pleased in that regard.
> 
> however, someone elses grief doesn't make me feel any better


 OK cool!  

Sorry I tried!


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

if I was out 1500$, like that, I'd be taking the money back in skin.


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## FckShoes (Jun 16, 2007)

Sorry to hear what you're going through man. 

Regardless of the time it takes to make the sturts and deliver them, he was promised an approx. date and that promise was not met. If he was told accurate information, he would have been able to weigh in his situation and act accordingly. 

I had a simliar experience with Mason Tech, had so much praise from everyone, I believed the "hype" and bought most of my air ride parts from MT. I wasn't even rushing the delivery, I asked to have them delived later as I was going on vacation at the time of purchase and did not want them sitting on my door step. When I get back, it still took several weeks to get the product to me. After installation, there was nothing but problems. I was left with knocking struts and bare metal under my shock towers. I wait and wait and wait and all I get is a spacer to "try". Spacer does nothing, so I wait some more, request a refund and get declined. This is a span of 3 to 4 months. I get new struts with updated bearings! sweet!!! Still knocks!!! Had them swapped for Air Lifts, couldn't be happier. If you check the Mason Tech thread for MKV you will see a huge decline in customer support, ending is ZERO repsonse from Mason Tech. 

I hope you get your stuff figured out man! I know exactly what you're going through.


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## ShadowGLI (Oct 27, 2006)

SuperBacon said:


> Usually when I see these kind of threads hating on a company, I usually tell the people to talk to the company first before blasting them in a thread. But it seems like you already have that covered. AirLift :thumb


 Haha this is the third time I've heard this story. All tend to be the same "just tell the truth to start and we'll be cool." but everyone knows excuses are like a**holes.... Everyones got one. 

Glad people are finally getting product but 5 months is a bit much. Especially with your product having shipped multiple times over a month plus span.


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## shiznit (Sep 7, 2008)

Just thought I'd share my experiences... 
I had ordered my Mk1 setup late 2008 from Openroad tuning. 
The struts took 2-3 months to show (as I was told when I ordered them), but worth every penny. I ordered them at the end of the season to give them all winter to show up. 
Ordering custom sh*t from Austria, I didn't expect it show up tomorrow. 
Service was great from Andrew, and the build quality on the struts is top-notch. 
Overall really happy with the experience. Just thought I'd share my experiences in dealing with Openroad. 

Cheers. 

-Craig


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## no vtec 4me (Aug 1, 2006)

Digital K. said:


> hows the cushion on that nutswing? comfy?  afaik the pallets take about a week to get here overall at most. so it took 4 months 3 weeks to make my struts? why was I told 3 weeks to a month?


 i was just saying, like you know, theres more to it than just andrew. Although he makes mistakes, just like everyone else does, theres more to the equation than just openroad tuning.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

Like I said earlier, if I didn't show up for work, because some product didn't arrive... It wouldnt matter. Excuses or not. Legitimate or not. if I can't do the job I was hired for, its my fault. period. The same goes for almost any business on any financial level. If I go into Best Buy, I don't get pissed at samsung because the TV I want is not in stock, I get pissed at Best Buy, for not ordering the correct amount of televisions, or underestimating demand. The end distributor, in this case Andrew, takes the hit whether he likes it or not. He is fully comfortable of using the term "we" when referring to him and bagyard unless its something bad, and then conveniently it becomes "they".

And I know its more than just andrew here, hence mentioning both in the thread title. Andrew mentioned to me he goes through delays and bull**** w/ bagyard often. If thats the case, he needs to update his timeframes to be more accurate. Neither are innocent here.


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## no vtec 4me (Aug 1, 2006)

Digital K. said:


> Like I said earlier, if I didn't show up for work, because some product didn't arrive... It wouldnt matter. Excuses or not. Legitimate or not. if I can't do the job I was hired for, its my fault. period. The same goes for almost any business on any financial level. If I go into Best Buy, I don't get pissed at samsung because the TV I want is not in stock, I get pissed at Best Buy, for not ordering the correct amount of televisions, or underestimating demand. The end distributor, in this case Andrew, takes the hit whether he likes it or not. He is fully comfortable of using the term "we" when referring to him and bagyard unless its something bad, and then conveniently it becomes "they".
> 
> And I know its more than just andrew here, hence mentioning both in the thread title. Andrew mentioned to me he goes through delays and bull**** w/ bagyard often. If thats the case, he needs to update his timeframes to be more accurate. Neither are innocent here.


 
understood. very good point.


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## adROCK319 (Jul 5, 2006)

i, as well as some of my friends, have had less-than-ideal experiences with open road tuning the company. although bagyard makes great products, the distributor-end of the operation needs some work. i have heard numerous complaints of deadlines not being met and promises not being kept. 

futhermore, i don't care if the operator of a business has school or work or whatever. if you can't do a task that you advertise to this forum, maybe you shouldn't try to run a business.


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## adROCK319 (Jul 5, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Once again it amazes me how people will complain and complain when something is going people; but never do people say anything when something goes right.


 andrew, this is because when you pay for a product/service, it is implied that the transaction will go smoothly and that the product/service will be delivered in a timely manner. have you ever bought something and expected horrible customer service? i didn't think so. 

ever heard of the saying "the customer is always right"? i would hope so since you are trying to run a business and you are handling the customer service aspect. i wonder how many times you've said "i'm sorry" to all of these people that have had problems. i'm guessing not many. judging by your posts here, you seem to get really defensive when you get called out. here's a tip, learn to suck up whatever bs bagyard might be feeding you and just say "i'm sorry" to your customer. i'm sure that will go a lot further than just playing the role of middle man and blaming everything on someone else.


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## Nanozic (Sep 11, 2000)

Honestly, what it seems like to me (as a bagyard/openroad customer) is that the elephant in the room here is that the ETA on struts is not as advertised 100% of the time. I know that I myself waited sometime longer than what I was originally told, but for me that wasn't an issue since I didn't have and event or date I needed them for immediately. I ordered my struts at the end of last show season and received them in the winter. 

That being said I had very good personal interaction with Andrew/Open Road and felt that he was honest with me when I would ask for updates on delivery. However, some points that are made in this thread are very valid and unfortunately for Open Road, with them being the front facing figures of Bagyard they are going to get all the praise and all the complaints, regardless of if things are in their control. To me it would seem that the communication between Bagyard and Open Road could in prove and then the communication to customers would be more inline with what to expect with delivery times. 

I read the PVW article on Bagyard and was surprised at how small of an operation they are. Basically a handful of guys churning out struts for the US and Europe. With the boom that air ride has seen in the last year or so, I think it's no unexpected that orders are going to take longer. Does that make it right that Digital K waited 5 months? No, not at all. You always what you keep your customer happy, and it seems that he wasn't. 

And the work analogy is pretty good that Digital makes. I have this guy, he's supposed to be at work 10am everyday. He's about 50/50 with making in on time, with the excuse of traffic was bad and what not. This has been a consistent problem. We're not hardcore about being in on time, but I mean c'mon, it's 10am that should be easy. So one day that he's late, he gets in and it's all this "oh, man traffic was real bad, blah, blah, blah" I turn and say to him and bluntly say, "leave for work earlier". My point is, if there is a potential for delays due to Bagyard or customs or shipping or whatever, tell them 3 months with the hopes of 1. Build in some slack for delivery. Customer will be happy if it shows up early and not as pissed if it shows up late. 

So really, it's a communication thing here. 1 month should never become 5 and if it does there should really be a good reason for it and the reason should be as transparent as possible to the customer. Maybe Bagyard can't keep up with their orders, maybe Openroad has bad estimates on delivery times. Either way, there is some room for improvement there I think all can agree. 

p.s. I love my Bagyards  congrats on graduation Andrew


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## corrado_sean2 (Nov 14, 2005)

sucks to hear man. about the rears, id say you should be tucking rim with that kind of fitment, unless your tires are stopping you. and assuming mk1 rears are similar to mk2/corrado (rear beam that is)


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## tobiwonkonobi (Nov 18, 2002)

Trying to make the most neutral statement possible... 
Products are made and delayed....customer should always be kept in the loop. If i am the customer and there is a delay i would like to be told.If its going to be months longer than originally planned...and i am told this...then I am going to take the information much better.Being led on and on that it will be here next week month or menstrual cycle and then not happening is not acceptable. 
If Openroad was trying to give a hookup to the customer...but couldnt fulfill it...he should have never made the "buddy deal". Dont advertise things you cant fulfill as you will always look like the bad guy.As for the rear setup...I am sure you can mod them to work as desired...I dont know the initial "setup you technically purchased". If its not what you ordered I would simply modify them.We can see from this waiting on another set of rears can take forever. 
In the end...tis better to be upfront about timeframes than inserting a foot in your own bunghole


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## merrigan (Feb 3, 2008)

just thought id mention. i, like yourself was unsatisfied by my BY fronts. andrew in an effort to make it right made me a complete new set of bombers at no cost to me. just wanted to throw it out there so it doesn't seem like all negatives. the customer service is definitely still alive. 

best of luck to you bro.


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## VWeezly (Jul 5, 2005)

such a sh!tty situation. Sorry Kris and Jes.


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## rawbdee (Sep 24, 2008)

Thanks for posting, good to know. :beer:


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## nap83 (Jun 24, 2007)

noted


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## DarkSideGTI (Aug 11, 2001)

I can feel your pain. I too waited a long time to get my stuff, but in the end I have it now and the quality is great. I do think that Andrew desperately needs to communicate better and should try to stock more parts. When I ordered my rear bags I figured they were something he had in stock. I ordered them and after a few days asked Andrew when they would be shipping, come to find out they are in Austria and I had to wait for a pallet to ship before I got my parts. I was patient since I had to wait for Accuair to release the switchspeed management anyway. but if I am going to pay that much for a product and it isn't in the United States, I shouldn't have to wait for a pallet to ship out.. box that ish up and send it. Now I'm worried if I have an issue with one of the components my car is going to be down for months while parts are shipped from the United States to Austria.


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## DOHC91GLI (Mar 21, 2004)

My Tank I got from ORT was garbage too... I just got it powder coated... Luckily that happens for free. 

I would like to slap someone at accuair... I have no manifold as of yet.:snore


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## STOOF G37 (Nov 26, 2009)

wow i had almost an identical situation happen to me...and im still dealing with it. 

Ordered my custom one off set of bombers late dec 09, was told 4-6 weeks. After countless amount of times being told it shipped and stuck in customs and its on the pallet to its not on the pallet, 4.5 months later i finally get them. And whatya know, the fronts were totally wrong. They made them based on a first gen 350z(same as g35) when i have a 2nd gen (g37 same as 370z). Fortunately the rears are the same for both gens so i put them in for now. So now im just waiting for new fronts to be made. 

Im having an opposite issue in the rear though, i hit the ground, but it takes me ~140 psi to get up to stock height.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

I heard about your issue. glad you posted.... that's quite a heavy car  takes some oompf to get that ass up eh?

I too worry that if I have an issue w/ a bag or a warranty thing, Im screwed. 5-6 months for a replacement? eek. Frightening.


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## STOOF G37 (Nov 26, 2009)

yeah i guess so. 

it sorta doesnt make sense though cause i talked to some G35 friends on air and they dont need that much pressure. Also caddy guys dont need that much either, and they weigh 1000lbs more than me.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

what did Andrew/Bagyard say about the issue?


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## STOOF G37 (Nov 26, 2009)

As im sure you can figure, he hasnt responded. 

I had an issue while installing, and he was sorta helpful, all he said was they were tested on a mk4??? wihch didnt make any sense to me.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

bummer. I am far too n00b to this stuff to speculate what the issue could be. maybe the bag is too small. I have no idea.


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## STOOF G37 (Nov 26, 2009)

same here. I was told to check my A-arms and see if theyre too tight and binding, but i never touched them so i doubt it. 

Maybe the bags are small and require higher pressure to fully air up. 

or maybe theyre too big and require more air to get up to that psi. 

lol i have no idea. Im just gonna wait for the fronts and see how it is after theyre in.


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## [email protected] (Aug 22, 2006)

This baffles me Jon as I've been nothing but helpful the entire time during your install and even left my phone on for you over the weekend. I told you the bags were tested on a Nissan Z, which happened to have a slightly different suspension than your G37. It simply amazes me how myself and bagyard go out of our way to do things right and it goes unnoticed. I'm sorry to hear that you've got such a sour taste in your mouth but your new struts are literally being fabbed and sent out this next week. Don't know if anyone knows that we're correcting your problem for free as we should do since we screwed up. People are really quick to jump down my throat about something but not so quick to see things from my side of the coin. Jon, if you've got an issue, you have my number give me a call.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

It's because people shouldn't have to take notice when things go right. Thats how they go, it should be the norm, not a special experience... You are selling a premium product at a premium price. the things you are describing are _expected_ of you.


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## STOOF G37 (Nov 26, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> This baffles me Jon as I've been nothing but helpful the entire time during your install and even left my phone on for you over the weekend. I told you the bags were tested on a Nissan Z, which happened to have a slightly different suspension than your G37. It simply amazes me how myself and bagyard go out of our way to do things right and it goes unnoticed. I'm sorry to hear that you've got such a sour taste in your mouth but your new struts are literally being fabbed and sent out this next week. Don't know if anyone knows that we're correcting your problem for free as we should do since we screwed up. People are really quick to jump down my throat about something but not so quick to see things from my side of the coin. Jon, if you've got an issue, you have my number give me a call.


 Whoa, Dont get so defensive. I just said my transaction with you went pretty much the same. 

I never said anywhere i had a sour taste in my mouth from all this. And i said you were helpful when i was installing my rears. When i told you the rears didnt go high enough you told me they were tested on a mk4. 

The fact that the fronts were built for a 350z and not a g37, i simply chalked up to a communication error. I was really pissed after waiting so long and receiving wrong stuff, but i didnt flip out, i told you the problem, with pictures, and you got on it right away. 

You gave me a time frame for the new fronts, and im respecting that, im even expecting it to take extra, cause im sure it takes longer, just like they did the first time. 

But ive been emailing you for the last 2 weeks about something else and havent gotten any response.


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## ChrisPop (Jan 22, 2010)

This thread is so lame. All this 8-year old complaining on the wait needs to stop. I'm guessing most of the people who keep whining about it must have been the kids that couldn't wait till Christmas day to open their presents either. You all have to remember, regardless of whatever wait you deal with, you are the ones who chose to change your cars with something aftermarket. If you wanted to bank on the most convenience and least hassle, keep it stock.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

ChrisPop said:


> This thread is so lame. All this 8-year old complaining on the wait needs to stop. I'm guessing most of the people who keep whining about the it must have been the kids that couldn't wait till Christmas day to open their presents either. You all have to remember, regardless of whatever wait you deal with, you are the ones who chose to change your cars with something aftermarket. If you wanted to bank on the most convenience and least hassle, keep it stock.


 I lol'd.


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## fasttt600 (Apr 12, 2007)

nutswinging aside. I have been dealing with Andrew for my management, and have had some delays(not Andrews fault) and he's kept me informed the whole way. 
This is going to be my first air ride car and I had a million questions, and Andrew has answered all of them. Just wanted to put my 2 cents in. Good luck with your car man. Hope you get it worked out!


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## VdubXXIV (Feb 14, 2008)

After reading through this thread. Now sorry if this sounds completly ingnorant or off base but, Isnt there enough demand now over in the states that bagyard cant spit these out for different fitmits instead of waiting for a case by case order? If thats actually how its even done?


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## ~kInG~ (Jun 8, 2005)

Andrew knows he has to change some things, as per his blog entry >>> http://www.openroadtuning.com/?p=120


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## ShadowGLI (Oct 27, 2006)

ChrisPop said:


> All this 8-year old complaining on the wait needs to stop. I'm guessing most of the people who keep whining about it must have been the kids that couldn't wait till Christmas day to open their presents either.


 Haha I'm pretty sure the one's complaining are the ones who came down on Christmas Day and found their tree empty with a note that Santa would be by in 2 weeks to deliver presents, then 3 weeks later a new note that Santa left the north pole but was on his way. But a week later a note was left that actually one of the reindeer was sick and Santa couldn't come for 2 more weeks, but he was coming, so just be patient cuz the elves are really busy. This then continued until spring was in full bloom, then one day in May, they came down to find their tree lined with presents little Johnny opened up his gift thrilled with excitement of his new skateboard to find that it had no wheels on it, and Danny opened up his new GI Joe's he had waited so long for to realize he got a polly pocket instead. 

They were sad but when they tried to look into the problem Santa reminded them that he was doing something special for them and they should be grateful. 

I think it sounds like a pretty heartwarming story, maybe it could be on the Hallmark Movie Channel. 

 

But the long and short of it, the product discrepancies are limited, the issues are 
-Realistic manufacturing and lead times need to be initiated (if the order was too big and holding up the initial orders, the shipment should have been split as a customer service, sacrifice a little bit of profit to the benefit of your customers, and don't put non group buy orders in with your group by to save money) 
-If a delay has been reached, communicate that, even if its a mass email, just keep a list of those who were on the list 
-If someone has an issue, they shouldn't have to wait a week for a response, graduation or not. 

It seems like Andrew may have gotten a bit over his head on this, but when you have person after person with the same experience and you call them out and place blame on others, it only makes one person look bad. And its not the customer. 

Santa should just make sure to better communicate or one of these days he's going to find that Danny returned his Polly Pocket with a new companion, a nice brown rag doll, with extra corn and peanuts.


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## adROCK319 (Jul 5, 2006)

^ I fully agree with that post, Ryan. 

For better or worse, ORT is the sole US distributor for Bagyard products at the moment. And I think this is the only reason why the company is still in business. You could be supplying the best product/service in the history of mankind, but if your customer service sucks, you won't be in business very long. 

I hope someone from Bagyard is reading this thread since it seems they're catching a lot of the blame.


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## adROCK319 (Jul 5, 2006)

As an aside, as a distributor, you take on the responsibilty of making sure the customer gets the correct types and numbers of items they ordered. If you are receiving pallets, separating, and distributing the products (which should only be done for bulk orders; waiting for enough individual orders to make a pallet is not fair), you accept full responsibilty that everyone's order is properly fulfilled. There is no one to blame but the distributor if something isn't right.


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## DarkSideGTI (Aug 11, 2001)

One thing I would suggest ORT do when someone makes an order be it on the website or over IM here is to email a confirmation of that order to the buyer. Both times I bought bags from ORT was over PM here and I expected a confirmation email and got nothing. I also had to contact Andrew regularly to get updates on my order. 

I guess I have been spoiled by hanging out down at Integrated Engineering and seeing how they as a small business handle shipping/customer service.


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## big bentley (Jun 6, 2001)

From what I gather my response if I was Andrew would of been this. "Here is a full refund, Im not interested in you being a customer of mine, go **** yourself."


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## adROCK319 (Jul 5, 2006)

big bentley said:


> From what I gather my response if I was Andrew would of been this. "Here is a full refund, Im not interested in you being a customer of mine, go **** yourself."


 Worst. Advice. Ever. I hope you don't teach business classes anywhere. If so, please let me know so I can let my future children know where not to go for business school.


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## ShadowGLI (Oct 27, 2006)

big bentley said:


> From what I gather my response if I was Andrew would of been this. "Here is a full refund, Im not interested in you being a customer of mine, go **** yourself."


 Haha and you would have single handedly closed your business by refunding all the people that were upset with the poor lead times, IIRC he had 96 pieces in this buy, and over half of those were front struts, so say 20-30k in front struts, thats a lot of money to refund. 

All the profit from this group buy should be going to outright purchase a pile of bags so that when future orders are placed parts are on hand, other than color there really isn't a difference from one MKV strut to another (or mkIV/MKIII etc) 90% of the parts sold are probably recreations of past orders with special colors, offer a 5% cheaper model thats just a standard color or allow them to wait 3 months for a custom color.


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## arethirdytwo (Apr 4, 2007)

That stinks man, I feel for you. When I was making this decision I called all the companies. Kevin got back to me within 10 minutes, no one else even answered their phone. I figured if I was going to spend the money I needed to support to go with it. As has been shown time and time again, even if these guys called you back you are still dealing with a product that has to be sent to EUROPE to be serviced. BUY LOCAL!!!!!! My airlift stuff is great quality, is warrantied, and my service only requires a trip to Michigan.


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## DarkSideGTI (Aug 11, 2001)

big bentley said:


> From what I gather my response if I was Andrew would of been this. "Here is a full refund, Im not interested in you being a customer of mine, go **** yourself."


 Wow, you would make it real far in the business ownership world. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and possibly lose a bit of money to save face. If you treat one customer good that had a bad experience, people are more likely to do business with you. tell them to go eff themselves and you have just lost a lot of potential business.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

ShadowGLI said:


> Haha I'm pretty sure the one's complaining are the ones who came down on Christmas Day and found their tree empty with a note that Santa would be by in 2 weeks to deliver presents, then 3 weeks later a new note that Santa left the north pole but was on his way. But a week later a note was left that actually one of the reindeer was sick and Santa couldn't come for 2 more weeks, but he was coming, so just be patient cuz the elves are really busy. This then continued until spring was in full bloom, then one day in May, they came down to find their tree lined with presents little Johnny opened up his gift thrilled with excitement of his new skateboard to find that it had no wheels on it, and Danny opened up his new GI Joe's he had waited so long for to realize he got a polly pocket instead.


 
this is the funniest **** of all time.


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## tonyb2580 (Jun 22, 2006)

Is customer service dead? Doesnt anyone build a quality product and take care of their customer anymore? Or has the internet diluted any sense of personal responsibility here? 

yes it is.. and no you rarely find someone that takes care of they customers.. once a company gets your money.. thats it... i cant speak for your experience or about open road as i have no experience with them.. i thought they should be good guys as they are all over this forum...


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## JayZ235 (May 12, 2008)

Ufda


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## big bentley (Jun 6, 2001)

I don't know what the numbers are concerning happy customers, but when the majority of customer service complaints come from a small percentage of clients, it sometimes makes sense to not do business with them. Lets assume that 5% of all ORT/Bagyard customers are genuinely unhappy about the service, lead times, product etc. Lets then assume that those 5% are spending 50% of Andrews time to address customer service issues. While the other 50% of his time is spent answering general questions, price quoting etc. Odds are that those initial 5% of unhappy customers are not going to do business with ORT/Bagyard in the future, so why bend over backwards for those people? If they're unhappy about the product, send it back and he can refund them. If they're tired of waiting cancel the order. 

Some customers are never going to be happy with anything, and the sooner you can identify who they are the better off as a business you'll be. If you're offered a refund and don’t take it you should be accepting the situation for what it is not crying about it online or at the very least complaining about ORT. Your beef is ultimately with Bagyards turnaround time, so why drag ORT through the mud?


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## FckShoes (Jun 16, 2007)

Did you even bother to read the entire thread? 

Just because BagYards turn around time is longer than expected, the distributor should be in the know and be able to relay that information to the consumer. He was promised inaccurate times, time after time. Like those that stated above, don't try running a business, you are bound to fail. ORT should take these threads seriously as it will help better their business. Word of mouth is powerful, especially for a business that is run on the internet. You turn away that "5%" and you turn away much more than that in potential business. I'm sure you yourself has had a bad experience with a business, would you continue to use them? Probably not, would you recommend them? Probably not. Would you voice your dislike, If you were smart you would. The OP's expectation were to pay X amount of dollars for a product that he would receive in X amount of months. If that is not met, then of course you're going to have and unhappy customer. 

You can point the finger at whomever you wish, but in this situation the consumer was not given accurate information from the distributor.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

big bentley said:


> I don't know what the numbers are concerning happy customers, but when the majority of customer service complaints come from a small percentage of clients, it sometimes makes sense to not do business with them. Lets assume that 5% of all ORT/Bagyard customers are genuinely unhappy about the service, lead times, product etc. Lets then assume that those 5% are spending 50% of Andrews time to address customer service issues. While the other 50% of his time is spent answering general questions, price quoting etc. Odds are that those initial 5% of unhappy customers are not going to do business with ORT/Bagyard in the future, so why bend over backwards for those people? If they're unhappy about the product, send it back and he can refund them. If they're tired of waiting cancel the order.
> 
> Some customers are never going to be happy with anything, and the sooner you can identify who they are the better off as a business you'll be. If you're offered a refund and don’t take it you should be accepting the situation for what it is not crying about it online or at the very least complaining about ORT. Your beef is ultimately with Bagyards turnaround time, so why drag ORT through the mud?


 you clearly just read bits and parts and havent read all of my posts...have you? I would have gladly taken a refund, if I wasnt told to just wait a liiiiittle bit longer. Be patient, its coming... etc.... 

I truly wish I would have taken the refund at this point. I realize I could have built a kit w/ help from off of suicidedoors for a fraction of the cost.


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## Muffler Bearing (Apr 4, 2004)

insert clever name said:


> That was motivation to do it. I doubt the bags are holding him up.


 and i doubt you have ever seen the underside of a mk1, or any car for that matter. 

a mk1 with stock shocks out back and just lowering (or cut) springs will go lower than kirs' car with the bagyards. how is it that airbags, which are designed to do nothing but slam the car cant even go as low as stock? 

is it true that ignorance is bliss?


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## NDubber (Sep 11, 2006)

seeing how many people are buying these products why are they making them when you order them, sure thats ok when youre doing 2 sets a month but it seems like people are buying these in the masses, so why not mass produce the most common sets (mk3,4,5) and keep the shelves stocked so when an order comes in they are shipped out the next day, and not from over seas, but in the US where the distributor is


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

NDubber said:


> seeing how many people are buying these products why are they making them when you order them, sure thats ok when youre doing 2 sets a month but it seems like people are buying these in the masses, so why not mass produce the most common sets (mk3,4,5) and keep the shelves stocked so when an order comes in they are shipped out the next day, and not from over seas, but in the US where the distributor is


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## ShadowGLI (Oct 27, 2006)

Digital K. said:


>


 not gonna say I said that already but 



ShadowGLI said:


> All the profit from this group buy should be going to outright purchase a pile of bags so that when future orders are placed parts are on hand, other than color there really isn't a difference from one MKV strut to another (or mkIV/MKIII etc) 90% of the parts sold are probably recreations of past orders with special colors, offer a 5% cheaper model thats just a standard color or allow them to wait 3 months for a custom color.


 
yeah estimate your monthly demand and keep some in stock, when you sell one, buy a new one, this creates a positive customer experience and will also allow you to compete against the new people coming into market that are eager to take the BY marketshare.


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## DarkSideGTI (Aug 11, 2001)

NDubber said:


> seeing how many people are buying these products why are they making them when you order them, sure thats ok when youre doing 2 sets a month but it seems like people are buying these in the masses, so why not mass produce the most common sets (mk3,4,5) and keep the shelves stocked so when an order comes in they are shipped out the next day, and not from over seas, but in the US where the distributor is


 My guess it that Andrew didn't have the funds to do this. Hopefully after these two group buys he can stock kits, replacement parts, etc.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

50,000$ is nothing in the small business loan world.


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## dannydubs21 (Apr 20, 2009)

wow that was a lot of reading. 

ive been contemplating getting on air for a few months now. all you ever read/hear about is how great [email protected] is. Digital- im glad someone finally spoke up about negative experiences.. 

good luck man- hope this all works out for you!


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## nunzo. (Jul 17, 2009)

Digital K. said:


> 50,000$ is nothing in the small business loan world.


 
i'm guessing you've never tried to get a small business loan for an automotive parts reselling business. only works if you're a wholesaler (i.e. lowrider depot, gauge magazine, etc)


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## Mattionals (Mar 9, 2005)

I've read through the thread, and I understand the pain of the OP, HOWEVER, you understand that this happens in the real world damn near everywhere right? Companies that I have worked for, we have been 2 *YEARS* past the deadline. Yes, you read that right. Years. Welcome to the world. I can't understand the "I want it now" society that is going on right now. Should you have been stuck waiting for 5 months when you where told 1. No. That sucks, and if you told the company that personally, they could learn to work on that. Publicly stating this wouldn't be what I would do because overall you are impressed with the quality of your product. Your car doesn't achieve the lowness that you want, but bags are not a miracle and you have already stated that you are looking at fixing the issue. 

I'm not complaining at you OP, and by no means am I trying to "nutswing" (I've always called this brown nosing or sucking up, I must be getting old  ), but slandering a company off of your one experience isn't something I would go around doing. I deal with crap companies all the time. Horrible CS. Ultra long wait times. No communication back to me. You know what I do? I remember that sometimes people have bad days. Sometimes things get lost in snail mail. E-mails get lost. Phones die. Plans get cancelled. There are excuses for everything and if you don't want to do business with that company again, then don't. I have to do business with my school. They suck at giving me money but are always three months early to take my money. Is this right? No. Am I still reaping the benefits by getting a few degrees and moving on? Heck yea! My point here is that this same type of situation is bound to happen to you many times throughout your lifetime. I would just let things role off of your back as long as in the end you get what you were looking for. If it's broken or you spent money and get bupkis, total different story here. As long as the payout in the end is what you expected, learn to gain the patience to deal with things like this. In the future it might not be goods, services, and money exchanges, it could be, and I hope it isn't, some sort of medical excursion that you need to pursue. 

OT, congrats Andrew on graduation! I'll be sitting in a similar field on Friday for the same thing.


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## Kiddie Rimzo (Feb 21, 2008)

maybe it was a sign that the original bag hater shouldnt get bags  
jk man. sorry to hear about your experience. 
Andrew has always been there for me, hopefully he can make this right by you :beer:


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

PDubbs20AE said:


> I've read through the thread, and I understand the pain of the OP, HOWEVER, you understand that this happens in the real world damn near everywhere right? Companies that I have worked for, we have been 2 *YEARS* past the deadline. Yes, you read that right. Years. Welcome to the world. I can't understand the "I want it now" society that is going on right now. Should you have been stuck waiting for 5 months when you where told 1. No. That sucks, and if you told the company that personally, they could learn to work on that. Publicly stating this wouldn't be what I would do because overall you are impressed with the quality of your product. Your car doesn't achieve the lowness that you want, but bags are not a miracle and you have already stated that you are looking at fixing the issue.
> 
> I'm not complaining at you OP, and by no means am I trying to "nutswing" (I've always called this brown nosing or sucking up, I must be getting old  ), but slandering a company off of your one experience isn't something I would go around doing. I deal with crap companies all the time. Horrible CS. Ultra long wait times. No communication back to me. You know what I do? I remember that sometimes people have bad days. Sometimes things get lost in snail mail. E-mails get lost. Phones die. Plans get cancelled. There are excuses for everything and if you don't want to do business with that company again, then don't. I have to do business with my school. They suck at giving me money but are always three months early to take my money. Is this right? No. Am I still reaping the benefits by getting a few degrees and moving on? Heck yea! My point here is that this same type of situation is bound to happen to you many times throughout your lifetime. I would just let things role off of your back as long as in the end you get what you were looking for. If it's broken or you spent money and get bupkis, total different story here. As long as the payout in the end is what you expected, learn to gain the patience to deal with things like this. In the future it might not be goods, services, and money exchanges, it could be, and I hope it isn't, some sort of medical excursion that you need to pursue.
> 
> OT, congrats Andrew on graduation! I'll be sitting in a similar field on Friday for the same thing.


 Slander is when you use dishonest or non-factual information to defame someone. Everything I posted happened. 

Honestly I think your post sucks. Saying I slandered him is stupid. So does saying your company misses deadlines by 2 years. I really don't care. Sounds like your company sucks balls. Expectations in different branches of the business world operate differently. For example (as long as we are using completely unrelated comparisons) Boeing always fails to meet deadlines to NASA or whatever Military branch of government they are building whatever for. Just because this happens in that arena, does not mean that a very small business that operates are a far more intimate scale with its clients can pull the same bull****. If you cannot understand the differences in the business world I dont know what to tell you. If I operated my business the way Andrew and Bagyard does, I would 100% lose my referrals which I depend on heavily. I do a ****ing fantastic job, every time, and I deliver the product in the promised time frame every single time. 

I have every right to post a complaint. And now that I have, my inbox is filled with others having similar issues. I can fit 50 PM's in my box, and I've already emptied it out from conversations about this once. Some have posted here, some have not, and this is absolutely not slander. I didn't dig the hole. I'm just the one putting a sign next to it so others don't fall in.

I am not a subscriber to the "I want it now" generation. I am part of the "I want it when I was told it would be here the 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th or even 12th" time I was told it would show up. Get the difference?

_edited as I misinterpreted one dumb correlation for another. _


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## Ducky 2.0T (Jun 4, 2001)




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## d-bot (Sep 6, 2004)

I have been also considering some BagYards for a current mk1 project but still waiting for them to figure out how to make the front low enough on stock towers. I really think Kris has the wrong rear struts. Look at this MK1 on bagyards. He is almost tucking the rear 14" alloy. Why won't a 16" tuck harder? Something isn't right. Hope it get's resolved. I think valve cover gasket is waiting on his fronts to be re-worked. Funny you guys have opposite issues.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

i asked 2 months ago about the rears and got no response. Im hoping I can just resolve it with drop plates. I cant wait months to get a set of rears that work properly.


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## Mattionals (Mar 9, 2005)

Digital K. said:


> Slander is when you use dishonest or non-factual information to defame someone. Everything I posted happened.
> 
> Honestly I think your post sucks. Saying I slandered him is stupid. So does saying your company misses deadlines by 2 years. I really don't care. Sounds like your company sucks balls. Expectations in different branches of the business world operate differently. For example (as long as we are using completely unrelated comparisons) Boeing always fails to meet deadlines to NASA or whatever Military branch of government they are building whatever for. Just because this happens in that arena, does not mean that a very small business that operates are a far more intimate scale with its clients can pull the same bull****. If you cannot understand the differences in the business world I dont know what to tell you. If I operated my business the way Andrew and Bagyard does, I would 100% lose my referrals which I depend on heavily. I do a ****ing fantastic job, every time, and I deliver the product in the promised time frame every single time.
> 
> ...


 I had this great post, and then I clicked reply to thread instead of post quick reply. DANG IT!  

So now I have to sum up what I wanted to say. First off, it's cool if you think my post is crap, this is your thread.  

I looked through my post, felt that most of it should have been a PM and I admit that it looks as if I am outrightly trying to put you down. My example was meant to give a "go with the flow" type of correlation because really it is what happens at the end that matters most. I want to apologize if I upset you in any way and I do believe that both ORT and Bagyard have to make changes. I think this problem most likely wouldn't have turned out the way it did two years ago because bags were much less common then they are today. The big issue is that there aren't enough companies out there making high volume parts that can be stocked in a warehouse and shipped upon order. I think the thread has it's place in a customer service and response forum that maybe ORT should look into making. This could be the best way to deal with problems, concerns, and feedback without blowing up a cell phone, inbox etc.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

my new years resolution was to go with the flow, be not an *******, and be patient. You have no idea how hard it was for me to wait 5 months without losing it. Being patient and nice is so out of my character. My efforts to change and be a nicer guy are probably why I let being told over and over again different things. It probably came through as weakness and thats probably my fault. People PM'ing me over the last few months saying that they were sick of issues that were similar to mine is what procured me to post this thread more than anything. When you have a machine that is getting as big as BY/ORT has become, the serfs have trouble saying anything to the king. They take their porridge and eat it. I decided to speak out on behalf of others, and myself. Even though I've become more patient, Im not going to just eat **** to prove it. I gotta draw the line somewhere.


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## Mattionals (Mar 9, 2005)

Digital K. said:


> my new years resolution was to go with the flow, be not an *******, and be patient. You have no idea how hard it was for me to wait 5 months without losing it. Being patient and nice is so out of my character. My efforts to change and be a nicer guy are probably why I let being told over and over again different things. It probably came through as weakness and thats probably my fault. People PM'ing me over the last few months saying that they were sick of issues that were similar to mine is what procured me to post this thread more than anything. When you have a machine that is getting as big as BY/ORT has become, the serfs have trouble saying anything to the king. They take their porridge and eat it. I decided to speak out on behalf of others, and myself. Even though I've become more patient, Im not going to just eat **** to prove it. I gotta draw the line somewhere.


 I here ya there. I've been doing the "stop being a douche/*******/other various but NSFW terms" for about 5 years now. Each year gets a bit better, so in time things start working themselves out regardless to what you do. It has gotten to the point that I don't give a **** about most people's issues and I just set my goals up and even when it looks gloomy, I trudge through and finish. Ever since doing this, my grades went up, my anger went down, and now I'm overall much more chill. It's like that one co-worker/customer who just SUCKS, and there isn't a thing you can do about it. I started out ready to punch that guy in the face, and now I just tolerate him/her until they go away. Makes life better IMO. 

Anyway, I'm interested to see your Mk1 go low!    

Are you expecting to lay frame?


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

the front will once it's notched farther. the rear struts are wrong. we'll have to see what drop plates and camber shims does.


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## 01 (Sep 9, 2009)

bummer, this is why i decided to stick with bag-riders and airlift. 


hopefully you get this all worked out, i fully agree with paying a premium and getting what you paid for :beer:


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

this is the switch that comes w/ my management. I kinda thought it was small.


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## wantacad (Apr 4, 2003)

Digital K. said:


> I realize I could have built a kit w/ help from off of suicidedoors for a fraction of the cost.


 
Now there is a company that has built itself off of awsome customer service and word of mouth. :super:


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## adROCK319 (Jul 5, 2006)

I


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## Fast Eddie GTI (Feb 13, 2006)

Digital K. said:


> I realize I could have built a kit w/ help from off of suicidedoors for a fraction of the cost.


 And you would have probably made the same type of post about them as you did Open Road...at least if my experience with them is anything to go off of.


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## dmoney (Apr 10, 2003)

Fast Eddie GTI said:


> And you would have probably made the same type of post about them as you did Open Road...at least if my experience with them is anything to go off of.


 Not to stray too far off topic but is suicide doors no good too?


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

adROCK319 said:


> I


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## Fast Eddie GTI (Feb 13, 2006)

dmoney said:


> Not to stray too far off topic but is suicide doors no good too?


 I wouldn't base if a company is "good" or not on one experience (just like this thread and ORT), but if you want to hear my story shoot me a PM and I'll give you the details. Not as bad as Digital K, but harder than it should have been.


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## SoloGLI (Jan 20, 2005)

Fast Eddie GTI said:


> I wouldn't base if a company is "good" or not on one experience (just like this thread and ORT), but if you want to hear my story shoot me a PM and I'll give you the details. Not as bad as Digital K, but harder than it should have been.


 This isn't one incident. Just look at each of the group buys and there are definitely a good amount of people who are afraid to post because they are afraid of the nutswingers and getting hated on. I was part of the original group buy as well as this last group buy, and dealing with Andrew is a pain to say the least. It's not about the delays or the fact that it takes 2 months longer than what we are told, its the lack of communication or just the outright misinformation that is passed along. Just look through the group buy thread and read Andrew's posts/responses (or lack there of most of the time) to what the status is when several customers ask for an update. One of my favorites was when he said they had started ordering parts early so they could maintain a good build schedule for a March 15th delivery. When March 15th came and went, his reason was "Oh must have been a misunderstanding that March 15th was a build completion date, not a delivery date". If that were true, I'd understand that, but later in the thread, Retromini posted that he spoke directly with Bagyard and he was told they didn't even order the parts from Bilstein until March 22nd. That's just one of at least 5 different examples just from the group buy thread. Plain and simple you don't lie to customers, you don't just ignore them for a week and then come back with some off the wall explanation, that's just flat out wrong and horrible business practice. For anyone to sit here and actually defend that type of business practice is absolutely asinine.


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## Retromini (Nov 7, 2004)

SoloGLI said:


> When March 15th came and went, his reason was "Oh must have been a misunderstanding that March 15th was a build completion date, not a delivery date". If that were true, I'd understand that, but later in the thread, Retromini posted that he spoke directly with Bagyard and he was told they didn't even order the parts from Bilstein until March 22nd.


 I should clarify that that's the date they ordered the bilsteins for MY bombers (for a MINI, but I was part of the group buy). I have no idea when everyone else's struts were ordered. But, hearing that from Andreas was definitely pretty frustrating for me. I expected delays in the group buy because of things like customs and shipping times, but I also expected that Bagyard would atleast ATTEMPT to have them done in the time frame given. Instead they STARTED working on my struts a week after they were supposed to be completed. 

Still waiting on mine. Tracking says they should be arriving soon...unfortunately it's the day before I leave for SoWo


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## President Lincoln (Jun 27, 2005)

Damn ol air bags.. I have always wanted to order bags from ORT. I have not yet had the pleasure. I just like the product reviews. Maybe one day I will get some bags. hehe 

Good luck everyone.


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## SoloGLI (Jan 20, 2005)

Retromini said:


> I should clarify that that's the date they ordered the bilsteins for MY bombers (for a MINI, but I was part of the group buy). I have no idea when everyone else's struts were ordered. But, hearing that from Andreas was definitely pretty frustrating for me. I expected delays in the group buy because of things like customs and shipping times, but I also expected that Bagyard would atleast ATTEMPT to have them done in the time frame given. Instead they STARTED working on my struts a week after they were supposed to be completed.
> 
> Still waiting on mine. Tracking says they should be arriving soon...unfortunately it's the day before I leave for SoWo


 Thanks for that clarification. Even assuming that ONLY relates to your stuff, still no excuse for the misinformation provided to customers.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

i gave up on SOWO a looooong time ago.


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## Retromini (Nov 7, 2004)

Digital K. said:


> i gave up on SOWO a looooong time ago.


 Mine arrived, and it looks I may have to give up on the SOWO deadline too  

What's the best way to contact Andrew? Email or phone? I just sent him an email and tried calling but both lines went straight to voice mail. I've got some semi-urgent questions to ask.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

Good luck sir. I found sending messages on facebook worked sporadically.


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## [email protected] (Aug 22, 2006)

I'm right here! Email or PM Works best as I'm at the worthersee Meeting. What are your questions? We built the struts via your Technical drawings, exact to your specifications. 

So Kris, when are you going to call me?? Does tomorrow work for you? This internet thuggery is getting old.


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## Retromini (Nov 7, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> I'm right here! Email or PM Works best as I'm at the worthersee Meeting. What are your questions? We built the struts via your Technical drawings, exact to your specifications.
> 
> So Kris, when are you going to call me?? Does tomorrow work for you? This internet thuggery is getting old.


 I sent you an email prior to that post, so it should be sitting in your inbox. If it's not there, let me know. 

I never sent any technical drawings regarding the struts. The only technical drawings sent were the pillowball mounts that they wanted too look at and the only specs I sent were the over compressed/inflated lengths. I offered to send more specs/measurements if needed but they never emailed me so I figured everything was okay. 

Anyways, this is better done in private via email or phone. I've sent you an email to the email address that you and I have been talking on the past few days. Check it out and let me know. 

Edit: i sent a copy of the email to your PM here too, just in case.


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## 2.0fsiwagon (Nov 27, 2007)

+1 

Its that age old expression "you have 1 bad experience you tell 10 people, you have 10 great experiences you tell 1" 

None of this has swayed me from Bagyards quality products! Can't wait till I can get some:beer:


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> So Kris, when are you going to call me?? Does tomorrow work for you? This internet thuggery is getting old.


 to talk about that? if you want to send me some matching rear struts that work better, by all means do. I'll send you these back. thats about the only solution I think. otherwise its drop plates for me. I speculate that the struts wont show up as soon as I need them. Prove me wrong?

Im not trying to be an ethug. I dont think I am...


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## SoloGLI (Jan 20, 2005)

Digital K. said:


> Im not trying to be an ethug. I dont think I am...


 You're definitely not. Unless you consider sharing your experience with a vendor e-thuggery...


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## [email protected] (Aug 22, 2006)

Digital K. said:


> to talk about that? if you want to send me some matching rear struts that work better, by all means do. I'll send you these back. thats about the only solution I think. otherwise its drop plates for me. I speculate that the struts wont show up as soon as I need them. Prove me wrong?
> 
> Im not trying to be an ethug. I dont think I am...


 Ill be at the shop tomrrow and will talk with Eddie about your rear struts. Then again you did just put them in the car without air so they're probably not broken in properly you might just need to put some miles on them.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

I probably actuated them up and down w/ air about 30 times. it still sits the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S-Hesumydw


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## binger (Mar 3, 2002)

karma's a bitch. you have given people on the forums a hard time for years. your cars not even close to being finished even if you had them 4 months ago it still wouldnt matter.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

binger said:


> karma's a bitch. you have given people on the forums a hard time for years. your cars not even close to being finished even if you had them 4 months ago it still wouldnt matter.


 I'm sending giant go **** yourself vibes over the internet. maybe a karma anvil will fall on my head....karma doesnt exist ****tard. 

the car is actually pretty close. the fusebox is pretty much tied up. the wiring harness is all done and ran in the front of the car. all thats left is bits of the air ride, bend new front brake lines, throw the fuel pump in, put the radiator in, and do the regular stuff a car that just got put back together needs. such as align the shift linkage, adjust ignition timing, etc. 

it's super close. we're getting excited over here


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## v2. (Oct 19, 2007)

Interesting read...


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## binger (Mar 3, 2002)

Digital K. said:


> I'm sending giant go **** yourself vibes over the internet. maybe a karma anvil will fall on my head....karma doesnt exist ****tard.
> 
> the car is actually pretty close. the fusebox is pretty much tied up. the wiring harness is all done and ran in the front of the car. all thats left is bits of the air ride, bend new front brake lines, throw the fuel pump in, put the radiator in, and do the regular stuff a car that just got put back together needs. such as align the shift linkage, adjust ignition timing, etc.
> 
> it's super close. we're getting excited over here


 
haha best of luck to you.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

binger said:


> haha best of luck to you.


 I dont need luck. I am ****ing awesome.

keep on trollin.


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## adROCK319 (Jul 5, 2006)

Must be nice to have a monoply on a product. I guess it means you can pretty much do anything you want. Like take people's money up front and have them wait 5 months for their stuff to arrive. Or like charge them a 25% restocking fee when they've decided to go with a different product. I think it's a shame that Bagyard is getting wrapped up in this mess; they make such great stuff. There's obviously a gross lack of communication and customer service, which is something you don't expect when purchasing a premium product.


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## _Dirty_ (Sep 30, 2009)

Digital K. said:


> I dont need luck. I am ****ing awesome.
> 
> keep on trollin.


 Haha this is awesome!


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## Jester of Paint (Jul 23, 2007)

Bagyard and Open Road both need to get their **** together. If you are going to ask the big bucks for your products you better have the customer service and communication with your seller under control. Thank you Kris for the insight into this situation I think it gives everyone a realistic look into how Open Road and Bagyard are working. And if I was Bagyard I would kiss Andrew's ass every single day because Bagyard looks like they can't sell their own products by themselves so this Bagyard craze is thanks to Andrew.


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## eurotrsh (Dec 25, 2004)

dmoney said:


> Not to stray too far off topic but is suicide doors no good too?


 I hear theyre slowly improving, but a friend who used a wholesale account through Thorbecke absolutely hated dealing with them. 

Sorry to hear about this, K. Hopefully this all works out with the shims.


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## Turbo Charged (Jul 27, 2009)

As i have read the majority of this thread, the exception being ORTETHUG long post without quoting things correctly. 

My opinion is much like others in this thread. 

Promise what you can deliver. I understand international shipping and customs and all that hulabalu, i have got rim screws in 2 weeks and the exact same order taking 2 months another time, the long and short of it was that i was dealing with the manufacturer and they let me know it was in customs, they sent me all the info they had and basically i had to sit on it, which was fine, they informed me. 

That is the crucial part that seems to be missing in the majority of these cases. 

Promises, and i use that word loosely as i doubt he said "i promise i will have it to you on nov 4th 2020", were broken on many occasions. I dont know anyone that would be happy about this 

Andrew- 

I'm glad you are making it good with the G37 owner. 

Digital K- 

Yes those switches look like garbage. 

What can Andrew do to make this right? I would be interested to hear the outcome.


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## STOOF G37 (Nov 26, 2009)

Turbo Charged said:


> Andrew-
> 
> I'm glad you are making it good with the G37 owner.


 Yes, he is doing right by me, and he has from the start. I wouldn't classify my experience with him as terrible or bad at all. My experience was just very similar to Digital's. 

When things got delayed i understood, i got a one off set of bags that were made overseas. I wasn't expecting it to be done immediately. 

For the most part, communication with Andrew has been great via email. Many times he answers immediately. But there has been the occasional few that go unanswered. 

The only thing i can really say i was unhappy with was tracking info...which i never got. 

I would still recommend doing business with them, as i would continue to. You just have to know what you're dealing with i guess.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

Turbo Charged said:


> Digital K-
> 
> Yes those switches look like garbage.
> 
> What can Andrew do to make this right? I would be interested to hear the outcome.


 I moved on to the atari control box. We'll see what he comes up w/ tomorrow after he talks to whoever he mentioned he was going to talk to about the rears. I cant imagine breaking them in is the right solution though for going another 1 to 1 1/2 inches lower. Thats all I really want out of it. although, just being able to set it on the ground like the fronts can would be ideal in a setup like this. matching yakno?


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## kaitisland (Dec 30, 2005)

I feel bad for your situation, hopefully it'll all be fixed sooner than later. I wish Airlift made a solution for the MK1. They ship from Michigan (IIRC) so if you ever needed a replacement part it would take no time at all to get it. And to think I was impatient when I ordered my bags on a Thursday and had them on Monday.


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## Mr. Appleton (May 16, 2009)

Well I think I shared my ****ty experience with you Kris. 

I bought my front bagyards on the FIRST ever group buy before there was Open Road, and before there were any nutswingers. Andrew and another dude were organizing the group buy. I guess to what he later turned into a business. But I could care less. I paid $750 plus like 20 bucks for customs fees back then. Mind you they are the same exact struts he is selling now for $1300 some odd dollars. Whooptie do they changed the upper and lower bag plates to anodized and what not but what it comes down to they are the same ****in struts. 

The group buy did take a couple months but it was over winter I wasnt worried but IIRC he handed out bs excuses then as well. 

Rewind to last year. Months before WATERFEST my struts were making noise. I replaced, strut mounts, strut bearings, control arm mounts, ball joints, tie rods, and my noise was still there. So Andrew offered a set of new struts. Fine I said that should fix the problem. Waited, got dicked around on their status. Then things change a month into it. He changes his mind and says the Bagyard guys have NEVER EVER had problems with MKIV struts in the how many ever years they built struts for them. I call their bluff but they insist, and somewhere in this time I was so pissed that I contacted BagYard directly. Andreas or whoever it is over there that speaks english confirms that they never have problems with the MKIV stuff and trying to call me out on installing them wrong. Ive done countless suspension installs so for them to try and blame me was not gonna cut it. Finally they agree to send me new struts. First they were coming to my house, then they were on a pallet with stuff since the shipping was cheaper, then they were being overnighted from Austria directly to me, then they were on a pallet, then they were delayed, then they were shipped, then they were being made, then they were shipped directly to me, etc. etc. etc. Bull**** and Andrew knows exactly how I feel about him and his half assed business he runs. 

While waiting for the struts one of my front struts, the set screw for the lower bag plate, somehow came loose or was never tightened to begin with, and caused the bag to rotate on the strut. That caused the leader line to pinch itself on the bracket for brake pad sensors/lines and cause a decent sized leak. I contact Andrew and what does he tell me? Take them off the car and disassemble the struts and tighten the set screw. Seriously? Not like I cant do that but I pay for quality and then I have to go and take **** apart... get the **** outta here. He offered a new set of struts and what not, mind you this was a couple of months into apparently getting new struts already. I should have had my replacement struts up to that point but no promise after promise I had nothing. 

Well 4 months or so after I originally contacted him and HE promised replacement struts, not like I insisted them. They show up. Open them up and guess what no leader lines like he originally promised. OOOOO musta been a communication problem like always. So a few days before I am getting ready to leave for H2O I am putting them on the car. I told Andrew, I am not returning my old struts until I see my leader lines as promised. He has the NERVE to tell me oh youre gonna hold on to your old struts until you get new leader lines, hell yea I will. You dicked me for months and now want something in a timely fashion. Hell hes lucky he got them back when he did because I was planning on keeping my old struts for the same amount of time as it took for the replacements to get here. 

To put the icing on the cake he was a bitch that he couldnt confront me face to face at H2O to give me my leader lines and get his struts back that he had Olson give my the leader lines and then Olson gave him the old struts.


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## SoCalDubber (Jul 21, 2004)

Mr. Appleton said:


> To put the icing on the cake he was a bitch that he couldnt confront me face to face at H2O to give me my leader lines and get his struts back that he had Olson give my the leader lines and then Olson gave him the old struts.


 Wooooow 

Here is my question: If ORT didn't have the monopoly on BagYard, do you think people would still be doing business with ORT?


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## adROCK319 (Jul 5, 2006)

Quality post Mr. Appleton. Props.


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## JayZ235 (May 12, 2008)

Mr. Appleton said:


> To put the icing on the cake he was a bitch that he couldnt confront me face to face at H2O to give me my leader lines and get his struts back that he had Olson give my the leader lines and then Olson gave him the old struts.


 3rd party problem solver mike?  Looking for ward to seeing your car this june too. 

And kris, that atari control box is sick looking!!


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## ForVWLife (Nov 12, 2004)

Mr. Appleton said:


> To put the icing on the cake he was a bitch that he couldnt confront me face to face at H2O to give me my leader lines and get his struts back that he had Olson give my the leader lines and then Olson gave him the old struts.


 i laughed soooo ****ing hard when you told me this at h2o 

btw this whole thread explains why i am still bag over coil and am happy i never have to deal with this cluster **** of a middle man operation 

in the end he has no control whatsoever but seems to enjoy making people think he does and passing the blame onto bagyard when things dont happen the way he says they do


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

thats hilarious. liaison mike haha



Mr. Appleton said:


> First they were coming to my house, then they were on a pallet with stuff since the shipping was cheaper, then they were being overnighted from Austria directly to me, then they were on a pallet, then they were delayed, then they were shipped, then they were being made, then they were shipped directly to me, etc. etc. etc. Bull**** and Andrew knows exactly how I feel about him and his half assed business he runs.


 wooooow this sounds almost to the T what happened to me. unreal. It could have been typed by me... unbelievable. so I guess I shouldnt expect replacement rear struts soon...


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## Mr. Appleton (May 16, 2009)

youll be lucky if you get them before the end of the year, and no im as serious as a heartattack


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

glad I ordered the shim kit and drop plates then....


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## adROCK319 (Jul 5, 2006)

Anybody else feel like starting a Bagyard distribution business and showing ORT how things should be done?


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## rabriolet (May 27, 2005)

Glad I went airlift and not bagyard. So many people hyped bagyards and I probably would still be sitting and waiting  

Will @ Bagriders is INSANELY helpful and ALWAYS answered phone calls/emails/IMs whenever I needed something or had a question. I've referred 3 others to him since I started dealing with him. Nice how that works, 1 person got him 3 more orders just by giving outstanding customer service. 

Just goes to show, if 1 person can do that in a positive way, imagine what 20 people can do in a negative way.


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## 01 (Sep 9, 2009)

rabriolet said:


> Glad I went airlift and not bagyard. So many people hyped bagyards and I probably would still be sitting and waiting
> 
> Will @ Bagriders is INSANELY helpful and ALWAYS answered phone calls/emails/IMs whenever I needed something or had a question. I've referred 3 others to him since I started dealing with him. Nice how that works, 1 person got him 3 more orders just by giving outstanding customer service.
> 
> Just goes to show, if 1 person can do that in a positive way, imagine what 20 people can do in a negative way.


 will is the man!


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## Mr. Appleton (May 16, 2009)

My buddy with a rabbit just ordered from Will and had absolutely no problems.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

d-bot said:


> I have been also considering some BagYards for a current mk1 project but still waiting for them to figure out how to make the front low enough on stock towers. I really think Kris has the wrong rear struts. Look at this MK1 on bagyards. He is almost tucking the rear 14" alloy. Why won't a 16" tuck harder? Something isn't right. Hope it get's resolved. I think valve cover gasket is waiting on his fronts to be re-worked. Funny you guys have opposite issues.


 its funny you should mention me and my car... for the record, if you follow my build thread - which is probably impossible to find given the state of the forums at the moment - those rears are the chapman universals from AAC (and they have slow leaks). the fronts are the bagyard supremes (which, as mentioned are built quite well, and dont leak) and NOT the bombers that Digital K has. the supremes are taller than the new bombers from what ive heard. 

i just found this thread, but my cars been off the road since late december waiting on those tall front struts to be shortened. 
i caught andrew on the phone the other week and hes hoping to work it out while hes in europe the next week or so, but i sympathize with Digital K and the agony of the long waiting and (relative) lack of communication. i too was told that the whole process of shortening struts (that i sent back to them - NOT buying new ones) would only take a month or so. 

i was tempted a while back to update my build thread of that thing to reflect similar sentiments as what DK's posted here, but i wanted to reach out to andrew a few more times before doing so. at this point im keeping my fingers crossed that that car will be back together for some of the summer shows.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

Mr. Appleton said:


> First they were coming to my house, then they were on a pallet with stuff since the shipping was cheaper, then they were being overnighted from Austria directly to me, then they were on a pallet, then they were delayed, then they were shipped, then they were being made, then they were shipped directly to me, etc. etc. etc.


 not to pile on... but i had heard a similar sort of story about a month or so ago. 
like i said in my previous post i think (hope) its sorted now as andrew is at bagyard talking to those folks in person. 

ill keep my posts as neutral as possible in the mean time


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## [email protected] (Dec 2, 2009)

Not to breakup the pile on but I'm honestly surprised by a lot of what is being said. Seeing as everyone is posting their negative story I'll share a positive. While my order with Andrew wasn't perfect he did the best he could and was responsive through the process. 

3/3/2010 - Placed order with Andrew over the phone for a set of custom extra short supremes and a rear bag setup. (I planned on sourcing my own rear shocks) I originally talked to AirLift, HPS, GAS and BagYard about a setup for my car. The problem was I was on a super tight schedule to have the car together by the end of the month for a show the first week in April and BagYard/ORT were the only ones that said they could make it happen. Andrew quoted 14 - 15 days. 
3/4/2010 - Credit card was ran for deposit 
3/17/2010 - I emailed Andrew for update on shipping status. He responded shortly after that parts were fabbed they were just waiting on the struts to show up from Bilstein and that was the hold up. No new ETA at this point. 
3/29/2010 - I emailed Andrew for update on status. He responded that they hadn't shipped yet but they will in the next few days. At this point I'm starting to get worried. 
4/2/2010 - Andrew emails me to let me know they have left BagYard. He had them Fedex overnighted to him and then he was going to overnight them to me. 
4/3/2010 - I email Andrew to ask him if he received and if he has overnighted them to me. He responded that he wasn't available but he had a family member receive the package and send it to me. 
4/4/2010 - Found out that the package was sent 2 day instead of overnight. 
4/6/2010 - Received the package and it included everything as promised including a set of rear struts that I didn't order! Also settled the balance of $ on the order. 
4/7/2010 - The car is sitting on the ground on 20s. 










So in the end we ended up with 1 day to get the car together instead of 2 weeks but I got a custom product delivered in a time frame that the competitors couldn't supply an off the shelf setup in. Andrew was responsive and did his best to make sure he ended up with a happy customer. 

@Digital K. - Don't throw in the towel yet... Clearly this thread has his attention and now that he's actually at BagYard I'm sure he'll iron things out. :beer:


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## merrigan (Feb 3, 2008)

nice brian! car looks immaculate btw. love those nue wheels.


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## DarkSideGTI (Aug 11, 2001)

haha, I was told my bags were in the USA, so I asked Andrew what the tracking number was. He sent me the tracking info for the pallet. then on my rear bags I asked what the status was and he told me they were sent out via fedex. A week later I still had no bags and no tracking number so I shot Andrew a PM and he did in fact reply with a tracking number, but the ship date was 2 days after he told me they were already shipped.


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

[email protected] said:


> So in the end we ended up with 1 day to get the car together instead of 2 weeks but I got a custom product delivered in a time frame that the competitors couldn't supply an off the shelf setup in. Andrew was responsive and did his best to make sure he ended up with a happy customer.


 You don't think that it had nothing to do with the fact that you are [email protected]??? 

because Morio from nowhere important is still waiting after paying in full since Feb.


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## adROCK319 (Jul 5, 2006)

Morio said:


> You don't think that it had nothing to do with the fact that you are [email protected]???
> 
> because Morio from nowhere important is still waiting after paying in full since Feb.


 If you didn't say it, I would have. That's exactly the reason Brian's transaction went so smoothly compared to others. And it's quite interesting that Brian's stuff was overnighted to PA from Bagyard. Must've been nice to not have to wait for a pallet to fill up. 

And Brian, you only had to pay a deposit when you initially placed the order? And then the balanced was paid at a later date, around the time that you received the parts? I know for a fact that some people are being charged in full for these parts immediately after placing an order. More shadyness.


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## SoloGLI (Jan 20, 2005)

What makes even LESS sense, is how does someone order a set of CUSTOM struts 2 weeks after the group buy is closed, and receives them a WEEK before the first person from the group buy gets their struts?? How do you collect something like $50k and NOT make that a priority?? I would love to see an answer to that question. Why would you setup a group buy, but continue to accept orders that are completed BEFORE the group buy orders? So just because its a group buy and you won't make as much profit, that means it gets put on the back burner? I could go on and on with questions like these, and I'll bet we will never get an answer from Andrew for any of them.


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## [email protected] (Dec 2, 2009)

adROCK319 said:


> If you didn't say it, I would have. That's exactly the reason Brian's transaction went so smoothly compared to others. And it's quite interesting that Brian's stuff was overnighted to PA from Bagyard. Must've been nice to not have to wait for a pallet to fill up.
> 
> And Brian, you only had to pay a deposit when you initially placed the order? And then the balanced was paid at a later date, around the time that you received the parts? I know for a fact that some people are being charged in full for these parts immediately after placing an order. More shadyness.


 We worked out a trade for 50% of the deal. So I paid him upfront and then shipped him his parts when they were ready which was around the sametime I got my parts  



SoloGLI said:


> What makes even LESS sense, is how does someone order a set of CUSTOM struts 2 weeks after the group buy is closed, and receives them a WEEK before the first person from the group buy gets their struts?? How do you collect something like $50k and NOT make that a priority?? I would love to see an answer to that question. Why would you setup a group buy, but continue to accept orders that are completed BEFORE the group buy orders? So just because its a group buy and you won't make as much profit, that means it gets put on the back burner? I could go on and on with questions like these, and I'll bet we will never get an answer from Andrew for any of them.


 I paid for the rush and for the air shipping. :thumb:


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## SoloGLI (Jan 20, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> We worked out a trade for 50% of the deal. So I paid him upfront and then shipped him his parts when mine were shipped
> 
> I paid for the rush and for the air shipping. :thumb:


 So simply because you paid extra money it means your order is first? This is nothing against you Brian, but hearing that just makes me more upset. Let me ask you this, would you ever put someone else's order, which is ALREADY behind schedule, on the back burner because someone else came to you with some extra money? I would certainly hope that happy customers is more important then a couple hundred dollars. 

BTW, I'll be coming by the shop tomorrow to drop off the wheels :thumb:


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## [email protected] (Dec 2, 2009)

The thing to keep in mind is you purchased your set as part of a group buy which means cost savings measures were put in place to make the discounted price happen. Including group shipping etc. Things ALWAYS take longer than expected with group buys and things often go wrong... It comes with the territory. 

I imagine if you would have bought your set outright instead of part of the group buy you'd already have your parts. But I really have no idea. 

That's all I've got to say in this thread. I was just relaying that not all experiences with ORT is negative so don't give up just yet... 

Sounds good man. See you tomorrow.


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## d-bot (Sep 6, 2004)

Just to clear things up a bit for the people that keep suggesting companies... no one else in the air ride world makes a DIRECT fit front strut for a Mk1. I would love to order from air-lift as they are only an hour from my house. Until some of these other companies start deciding to produce kits for the Mk1 then bagyard or a bag over coil is just about the only bolt on solution for the MK1 platform. 

A lot of these companies are just starting to make air ride for the earlier generations in the last year or two. Most stop at the mk2 as the mk2,3,passat,corrado are all about the same struts. Mk1s are very close as well but they need to be much shorter and there are some spindle mounting differences.


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## [email protected] (Aug 22, 2006)

Alex, why do you say you wont get an answer? Because I'm not combating every response? I'm in Austria and in meetings most of the day. Just send me a pm with your number and I'll give you a call as you seem to have a lot of beef with me.


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## DarkSideGTI (Aug 11, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> The thing to keep in mind is you purchased your set as part of a group buy which means cost savings measures were put in place to make the discounted price happen. Including group shipping etc. Things ALWAYS take longer than expected with group buys and things often go wrong... It comes with the territory.


 So how do you explain my rear bags that were not part of any GB taking 2 months while you got your's so fast? Maybe if my username was [email protected] I would have gotten my stuff quicker.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

Talked to andrew on the phone today. new struts are shipping out to me monday I think he said w/ a pre-paid shipping box to send the ones that dont work well back to bagyard/andrew. I wish this woulda been the case when I mentioned this a couple months ago. 

Hope this works out as stated. :thumbup:


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

Digital K. said:


> Talked to andrew on the phone today. new struts are shipping out to me monday I think he said w/ a pre-paid shipping box to send the ones that dont work well back to bagyard/andrew. I wish this woulda been the case when I mentioned this a couple months ago.
> 
> Hope this works out as stated. :thumbup:


 Glad you are being taken care of!


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

im also pissed off :thumbup: doesnt translate into a smilie.


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## SoloGLI (Jan 20, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Alex, why do you say you wont get an answer? Because I'm not combating every response? I'm in Austria and in meetings most of the day. Just send me a pm with your number and I'll give you a call as you seem to have a lot of beef with me.


 You can answer any questions on the forums, since I'm not the only one with the issues. My beef with you is that I can't stand liars and people who are greedy. I'm annoyed that I was constantly lied to and my friend is STILL being lied to. You can make up whatever excuse you want for the numerous claims that have been brought up, doesn't change how you have acted and will continue to act. I'm just hoping that I don't have any issues with my Bombers in the future because I don't want to have to deal with this again. 

And guys, don't start picking on Brian, he is a customer just like the rest of us. Just because Andrew decides to go out of his way so he can get something he wants out of the deal doesn't mean Brian is the bad guy. 

Kris, I hope this solves the problem for you. Although I'm sure it won't change your feeling about the situation any.


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## [email protected] (Dec 2, 2009)

DarkSideGTI said:


> So how do you explain my rear bags that were not part of any GB taking 2 months while you got your's so fast? Maybe if my username was [email protected] I would have gotten my stuff quicker.


 Sorry but I don't see @ORT or @BagYard behind my screen name so your question is addressed to the wrong person... I was simply sharing my honest experience as a customer with them. :beer:


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## Mr. Appleton (May 16, 2009)

Digital K. said:


> Talked to andrew on the phone today. new struts are shipping out to me monday I think he said w/ a pre-paid shipping box to send the ones that dont work well back to bagyard/andrew. I wish this woulda been the case when I mentioned this a couple months ago.
> 
> Hope this works out as stated. :thumbup:


 Lets hope thats the case. I'm still doubting it


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## ChrisPop (Jan 22, 2010)

If things go right for Digital K, seems like people will be complaining about a good thing happening, based off of the reaction Brian got for his story


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## casperslost (Oct 21, 2009)

It is pretty ridiculous how people get on forums and slander peoples integrity... I was part of the group buy and it did take a lot longer then i thought it was going to. Was it worth it to save as much as i did... maybe... but in the end i have a set of the best quality bags you can get! Several things happened that i wasnt happy with but i am not going to take it to flaming... one of the main reasons i dont get on vortex... too many little kids bitching and whining!!! it sucks but Andrew already said he wont do this again, for reasons that i now understand. 

Thanks for the bags Andrew! 
Josh


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## Mr. Appleton (May 16, 2009)

casperslost said:


> It is pretty ridiculous how people get on forums and slander peoples integrity... I was part of the group buy and it did take a lot longer then i thought it was going to. Was it worth it to save as much as i did... maybe... but in the end i have a set of the best quality bags you can get! Several things happened that i wasnt happy with but i am not going to take it to flaming... one of the main reasons i dont get on vortex... too many little kids bitching and whining!!! it sucks but Andrew already said he wont do this again, for reasons that i now understand.
> 
> Thanks for the bags Andrew!
> Josh


 First, stop swinging from his nuts.... it honestly needs to stop. I dont think you hear other big companies in the aftermarket word saying the things he does. Blaming school, bagyard, bilstien, shipping companies, customs, etc. but not himself. I am sorry I USED to fall for his **** before but I see that he does this quite often, and evidently he cant hold down a "business" and go to school. So as mentioned earlier he should quit one and stop making obtaining bagyards a MONOPOLY. Plus the fact he marks them up about double. 

Now apparently you have no idea what slander means so I will clarify it for you. 
1. defamation; calumny: rumors full of slander. 
2. a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report: a slander against his good name. 
3. Law. defamation by oral utterance rather than by writing, pictures, etc. 

Nothing of which I nor Kris has said is slander, these are all facts, I have no reason to sugar coat ****, I tell it like it is. 
I too like Kris have gotten PM's about people grateful I posted my bad experience and they too have been had like this.


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## rabriolet (May 27, 2005)

I wish I could become a distributor, I hate going to work everyday. What could be better than sitting home and collecting money to ship out parts?


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## Aloha-boy (Mar 9, 2001)

adROCK319 said:


> If you didn't say it, I would have. That's exactly the reason Brian's transaction went so smoothly compared to others. And it's quite interesting that Brian's stuff was overnighted to PA from Bagyard. Must've been nice to not have to wait for a pallet to fill up.
> 
> And Brian, you only had to pay a deposit when you initially placed the order? And then the balanced was paid at a later date, around the time that you received the parts? I know for a fact that some people are being charged in full for these parts immediately after placing an order. More shadyness.


 That's how Andrew handled both my orders. I first ordered the rear bags with half for the deposit. When they arrived at my door a month later, Andrew IM'd me here and told me pay the rest. Same transaction went down the same way with the fronts, cept the fronts came in month and a half later from order. I'm just a solo guy out in the desert, no fancy shop/car. 

My project took about 4-5 months of saving and collecting parts and another 6 months to complete. I guess having shows/appearances adds to the anticipaiton and makes it worst!


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## ChrisPop (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr. Appleton said:


> First, stop swinging from his nuts.... it honestly needs to stop.


 Well I don't get how he's "swinging from his nuts" by saying that HE felt the wait was still worth it for the quality product HE received. I guess this thread doesn't take even the slightest compliment towards Andrew lightly 

What I am still baffled to understand from this whole thread is how some people seem to think EVERYTHING is Andrews fault. I highly doubt the guy is purposely extending everyone's waiting period past his original statements on purpose and repeatedly being a "liar" out of randomness. Unless he has some secret Pinky and the Brain plot to rule the entire air ride scene, one group buy at a time muahaha :thumb:


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## Mr. Appleton (May 16, 2009)

ChrisPop said:


> Well I don't get how he's "swinging from his nuts" by saying that HE felt the wait was still worth it for the quality product HE received. I guess this thread doesn't take even the slightest compliment towards Andrew lightly
> 
> What I am still baffled to understand from this whole thread is how some people seem to think EVERYTHING is Andrews fault. I highly doubt the guy is purposely extending everyone's waiting period past his original statements on purpose and repeatedly being a "liar" out of randomness. Unless he has some secret Pinky and the Brain plot to rule the entire air ride scene, one group buy at a time muahaha :thumb:


 May not be all his fault but like Chris said don't lie. I absolutely hate liars. To be told on a handful of different occasions my struts shipped is bull too. I don't care if he was using an online translator to translate what they say. There can be no miss-communication when something is DONE and SHIPPED unless these BagYard guys are crooks and liars like Andrew.... then its digging him a deeper hole than he needs now.


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## Ducky 2.0T (Jun 4, 2001)

This was fun... I'm not one to tell someone how to run their business, but IMO you need to work in the real world before you understand why you don't get credit for doing your job. I do my job to the fullest everyday and I don't get praise. More often then not, I go above and beyond... same result. 

Andrew... you're quite obviously a kid running something you don't respect. Customer service is your business and you don't know how to maintain it. The **** you say on Facebook, in person, on forums, wherever needs to change. Just saying. 

Oh.. and..


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## Ducky 2.0T (Jun 4, 2001)

casperslost said:


> It is pretty ridiculous how people get on forums and slander peoples integrity... I was part of the group buy and it did take a lot longer then i thought it was going to. Was it worth it to save as much as i did... maybe... but in the end i have a set of the best quality bags you can get! Several things happened that i wasnt happy with but i am not going to take it to flaming... one of the main reasons i dont get on vortex... too many little kids bitching and whining!!! it sucks but Andrew already said he wont do this again, for reasons that i now understand.
> 
> Thanks for the bags Andrew!
> Josh


 Just curious... Where did you go to law school? 

Andrew will do it again because he makes a ****load of money with very little overhead.


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

That makes me uncomfortable to read. generally private conversations should be kept private. i dont post PM's people send me... ya know? i dunno. I dont want this thread to just become a group think bash fest. its not fair. careful. Its easy to get a group psychology thing going on. Lets give Andrew a chance to make some corrections and go forward. I'm giving bagyard and andrew another chance w/ sending me a new set of rear struts. Everyone deserve a fair shake the second time around. Its pretty hard to "square" the issues he and I had and how things went down. I'll always be a bit sour. But... If this helps future transactions for others thats great.

I think we've all been heard loud and clear. I am sure since Andrew is over in austria that bagyard has heard the news of this thread, and had their cages rattled a little bit. Thats what we all want right? Things to improve, so things go better for us and others in the future? I hope no one is here just to destroy someone else...


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## casperslost (Oct 21, 2009)

Mr. Appleton said:


> First, stop swinging from his nuts.... it honestly needs to stop. I dont think you hear other big companies in the aftermarket word saying the things he does. Blaming school, bagyard, bilstien, shipping companies, customs, etc. but not himself. I am sorry I USED to fall for his **** before but I see that he does this quite often, and evidently he cant hold down a "business" and go to school. So as mentioned earlier he should quit one and stop making obtaining bagyards a MONOPOLY. Plus the fact he marks them up about double.
> 
> Now apparently you have no idea what slander means so I will clarify it for you.
> 1. defamation; calumny: rumors full of slander.
> ...


 First off the swinging from the nuts comment is real adult of you... secondly to sit here and state that it is all Andrew's fault and drag his and ORT's name through the dirt is exactly what slander is!!! From my perspective when Andrew had my bags in his possession they were overnigted to me so i could meet a deadline. I appeared to me that he did what was in his power to make it happen.


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## Mr. Appleton (May 16, 2009)

Well put Ducky, glad more people are coming out with their ****ty service they received. This kid doesn't need to get a penny from anyone else. I'm sick and tired of this. I understand businesses are in it to make money but when you mark **** up 100% and then want someone to praise you for giving them a deal where you still are coming out with a ton of money is downright hilarious. 

I gotta search for my original thread where I posted my problem and it turned into a pissing match with him.


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## Ducky 2.0T (Jun 4, 2001)

Digital K. said:


> That makes me uncomfortable to read. generally private conversations should be kept private. i dont post PM's people send me... ya know? i dunno. I dont want this thread to just become a group think bash fest. its not fair. careful. Its easy to get a group psychology thing going on. Lets give Andrew a chance to make some corrections and go forward. I'm giving bagyard and andrew another chance w/ sending me a new set of rear struts. Everyone deserve a fair shake the second time around.
> 
> I think we've all been heard loud and clear. I am sure since Andrew is over in austria that bagyard has heard the news of this thread, and had their cages rattled a little bit. Thats what we all want right? Things to improve, so things go better for us and others in the future? I hope no one is here just to destroy someone else...


 He's in Austria spending your money.... and nothing is private. If you have something say, you don't put it into a fixed media. 

Lessons learned.


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## Mr. Appleton (May 16, 2009)

casperslost said:


> First off the swinging from the nuts comment is real adult of you... secondly to sit here and state that it is all Andrew's fault and drag his and ORT's name through the dirt is exactly what slander is!!! From my perspective when Andrew had my bags in his possession they were overnigted to me so i could meet a deadline. I appeared to me that he did what was in his power to make it happen.


 Who ELSE am I to blame when he runs a monopoly and all I can do it buy or get my bagyards serviced thru him? 
Come on now, all my info was factual. 
I had to contact him on several occasions to see WTF was going on with my struts. 
I mean come on... I go to Discount Tire per say, order tires, and they say they will be here in two days and schedule and appointment. I come at my scheduled appointment and the tires are not there. Who am I gonna blame? Most definitely not the tire manufacture since it has nothing to do with it. 

Hes been dealing with them for a couple years now so he knows how long **** takes. Don't tell me 3-4 weeks, and it turns into more like 5 months. Thats a HUGE difference, ya digg?


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## Wirbelsturm.VW (Sep 24, 2007)

Mr. Appleton said:


> May not be all his fault but like Chris said don't lie


  


> I too like Kris have gotten PM's about people grateful I posted my bad experience and they too have been had like this


  not sure if these sentences lacked commas, but somehow they really made me confused. 

Anyway I agree with ChrisPop* and his supreme explanation. 

Over and out boys. :beer:


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

The market and his peers will judge how things proceed from here I suppose. Looks like I opened pandoras box. I didn't slander anyone. I don't like that accusation one bit.


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## Ducky 2.0T (Jun 4, 2001)

Digital K. said:


> The market and his peers will judge how things proceed from here I suppose. Looks like I opened pandoras box. I didn't slander anyone. I don't like that accusation one bit.


 Don't worry.. You didn't slander anyone.. Most importantly because slander involves oral defamation. 

Libel is what these retards are intending to say. 

Regardless, the best defense to slander and libel is the truth! 

Yours truly, 

WFSU Legal


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## Mr. Appleton (May 16, 2009)

Wirbelsturm.VW said:


> not sure if these sentences lacked commas, but somehow they really made me confused.
> 
> Anyway I agree with ChrisPop* and his supreme explanation.
> 
> Over and out boys. :beer:


 Feel free to throw in commas, quotes, exclamation marks, parentheses wherever you feel needed.


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## arethirdytwo (Apr 4, 2007)

Someone could end this all. Take $10k, contact Bagyard and offer to become a STOCKING dealer. Or better yet just make them. All this knowledge and time could have been pooled together to build these things state side. 

I agree this guy sucks at his job (service). This is my 11th year in service, I work at one of the most famous bike shops in the world. My ONLY job is to service my clients, that's all. Sure sometimes it is that fun "Hey Kyle I need my new 6.9 with Di2 and an SRM" customer who I have a card on file for, but 90% of the time it is spending two hours with someone walking them through how to get into the sport. I love it, it makes me happy. 

Cry me a river, 90 customers? I see almost that many in a DAY. I don't care what this thread is about, respond to these people. You could have the douchiest customer in the world and your only answer should be "Oh I am so sorry about that problem sir! How can I suck your dick today?!" YOU DON'T EVEN BUILD THIS ****!!!! ALL YOU DO IS CUSTOMER SERVICE!!! 

Stop sucking at your only job. 

In case you forgot as a retailer we are afforded the chance to make our margin because we act as the buffer between the distributor and the consumer. If you all are really this pissed, email Bagyard. They will only handle so much direct consumer bitching before they begin to find a new distributor.


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## focuz04 (Jul 15, 2004)

arethirdytwo said:


> Someone could end this all. Take $10k, contact Bagyard and offer to become a STOCKING dealer. Or better yet just make them. All this knowledge and time could have been pooled together to build these things state side.
> 
> I agree this guy sucks at his job (service). This is my 11th year in service, I work at one of the most famous bike shops in the world. My ONLY job is to service my clients, that's all. Sure sometimes it is that fun "Hey Kyle I need my new 6.9 with Di2 and an SRM" customer who I have a card on file for, but 90% of the time it is spending two hours with someone walking them through how to get into the sport. I love it, it makes me happy.
> 
> ...


 

Can I get a Di2 Setup and SRM for my new ritte please..? 
jake


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## ChrisPop (Jan 22, 2010)

Ugh, this thread needs to be terminated. People keep carrying on. Welp, Arnold is almost done with his second term as the governator, he should come in handy shortly :super:


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## Digital K. (Sep 7, 2007)

like I said, the thread is important, but not if its going to get personal. lets hope we shook things up a little, and things improve from here on out? maybe? taking bets on the odds?


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## KP @ the bat (Nov 2, 2008)

wanna-be internet celebrity.


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## Shawn W. (May 6, 2007)

Feedback is always a good thing. Even when the feedback is negative. Companies can't grow without customer feedback. At my company we hold annual usergroups for our product to gauge where we need to focus our developers. 


Kris I hope it turns out well for you.


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## E. Gein (Oct 1, 2008)

Ducky 2.0T said:


> This was fun... I'm not one to tell someone how to run their business, but IMO you need to work in the real world before you understand why you don't get credit for doing your job. I do my job to the fullest everyday and I don't get praise. More often then not, I go above and beyond... same result.
> 
> Andrew... you're quite obviously a kid running something you don't respect. Customer service is your business and you don't know how to maintain it. The **** you say on Facebook, in person, on forums, wherever needs to change. Just saying.
> 
> Oh.. and..


 might as well quote it


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## VdubXXIV (Feb 14, 2008)

Epic


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## [email protected] (Mar 13, 2008)

Dragging on...


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## 01 (Sep 9, 2009)

"Sorry but per your previous request, I cannot contact you on your personal number." 


that just made my day.


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## JayZ235 (May 12, 2008)

rabriolet said:


> I wish I could become a distributor, I hate going to work everyday. What could be better than sitting home and collecting money to ship out parts?


 I believe that things are a little more difficult than this... 

Good to hear things might be going your way kris! I'll keep my eyes peeled on your build to see when the new stuff is coming in


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## scandalous_cynce (Oct 29, 2007)

casperslost said:


> First off the swinging from the nuts comment is real adult of you... secondly to sit here and state that it is all Andrew's fault and drag his and ORT's name through the dirt *is exactly what slander is!!!* From my perspective when Andrew had my bags in his possession they were overnigted to me so i could meet a deadline. I appeared to me that he did what was in his power to make it happen.


 No, slander is defamation of character in the ORAL form. Meaning spoken words. 
Defamation of character in the WRITTEN form is called _libel_. 

And in any case, nothing said here has been defamatory of anyone's character. It has been true facts and experiences that people are stating. If you're going to argue tort law, know what you're talking about.


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## Ducky 2.0T (Jun 4, 2001)

scandalous_cynce said:


> No, slander is defamation of character in the ORAL form. Meaning spoken words.
> Defamation of character in the WRITTEN form is called _libel_.
> 
> And in any case, nothing said here has been defamatory of anyone's character. It has been true facts and experiences that people are stating. If you're going to argue tort law, know what you're talking about.


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## [email protected] (Aug 22, 2006)

It's really funny to me how people have your back for months and months and won't say anything to my face. As soon as you get behind a keyboard, you're a tough guy. Nobody calls me or emails me, they just on the computer and continue to beat me up over a problem which I'm working to fix. Ducky had his struts in a short period of time and SoloGLI had his first set of struts hand delivered to him in Vegas at sema. His second set was sent via express saver free of charge. Furthermore, it's funny that many of you think you could run this business with your eyes closed. It's a lot harder than many of you think. In addition to that, posting personal text messages? That's an all time low. Take from this thread what you will, it's a shame that nobody steps up to the plate to call me or email me. I've refunded Kris some money and will be sending him new struts on Monday which should get him lower in the rear. 

Cheers


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## adg44 (Aug 2, 2000)

I think this thread has gone on long enough.


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