# RESOLVED: 2.0 TSI K04 MED17.5.2 Misfire Issue - (GLI/CC/Passat)



## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

*Background:* 

Recently it has come to APR’s attention some 2.0 TSI EA888 vehicles equipped with K04 turbochargers and APR K04 software are experiencing misfires in the upper RPM range. Documented cases primarily exist on newer MK6 GLIs, CCs and Passats with MED 17.5.2 ECUs. However, some customers with nearly identical setups and identical software on these same platforms and others are not experiencing issues. 

*Diagnosis:* 

APR’s Engineers have spent countless hours diagnosing vehicles through both hardware and software analysis. Ultimately it was discovered that vehicles experiencing misfires were equipped with weaker exhaust valve springs from the factory. In fact, these weaker springs show roughly 10% less stiffness as shown on a spring dynamometer. These vehicles have identical Engine codes and exhaust valve part numbers as those with the proper valves. Unfortunately VW’s dealership parts system (ETKA) does not indicate a part change. Furthermore, APR has had a test vehicle in house for over a month with this issue. The issue was repeatable by anyone who drove the car. Since changing the springs to the appropriate stiffness the car has not experienced a single misfire on the production V2.0 calibration. 

The photo below illustrates known good vs known bad factory valve springs. 










The issue occurs when exhaust backpressure (coupled with the natural forces in a valve train) is high enough to cause the exhaust valves to stay open during the intake stroke. During this time, the intake valves are open and exhaust pressure is flowing back through the intake and into the intake manifold. In doing so, data will show a false rise in boost pressure and a corresponding drop in mass airflow. The car will then cease to accelerate, will eventually blink the Check Engine Light, disable the cylinder and throw the car into limp mode with a fault code for misfires. 

In all cases we’ve seen these problems will not exist at stock output levels, or even at Stage 1 or 2 power levels due to lower exhaust backpressure. Furthermore, Stage 3 and 3+ vehicles are not experiencing these issues to date. This may sounds odd but the reason is simple. Stage 3 consists of a significantly larger manifold, turbine wheel, and wastegate therefore reducing the backpressure one would see with a high output K04. 

The issues these vehicles have faced are very similar to one existing on some Audi S3 and TTS vehicles in the past. Ultimately it was determined by Audi the valve springs were weak enough to cause issues even on completely stock vehicles, so Audi released a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) advising dealerships how to replace the problematic parts. 

*Solutions:* 

The primary solution to this issue is to replace the valve springs with a set of higher rated springs. The problematic vehicle we diagnosed in house received new valve springs and the issue completely disappeared with NO changes to the existing APR K04 MED17.5.2 software. 

A secondary workaround to this issue is a software file that reduces engine output in the upper RPM range ultimately reducing back pressure. Peak torque remains consistent between the old and new software so despite having lower output, the vehicle still feels fast. This software can be made available upon request. 

*Home Diagnosis:* 

We are not stating that ALL misfires on every K04 car are caused by exhaust valve spring issues. As you all know, there are many possible sources for engine misfire. Some examples include: bad coil packs, fouled spark plugs, faulty fuel delivery systems, etc. This failure mode happens in a specific way that typically involves having misfire that is localized to Cylinder #3 (sometimes Cylinder #2) in the upper RPM band. The car will typically cease to accelerate once the problem is encountered. 

Before concluding you may have weak exhaust valve springs, you should have already diagnosed the car through Vag-Com logging, swapping coil packs, swapping spark plugs, and maybe even changing the injector. Instructions for logging a vehicle using Vag-Com can be found here: http://www.goapr.com/support/datalogging.php 

To check what valve springs you have, you can remove the PCV: 



















And attempt to inspect the color bands on the exhaust valve springs. 



















Please refer to the image above for known good and bad valve spring color bands. 

Thank you for your patience during our diagnosis and Go APR! 

-Arin


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Great contribution to the VAG community. 

Now hopefully APR can figure the misfire issue that some see with Stage 2 TT-RS models. I am patiently waiting for a known fix so that I can go stage 2.

Note: Issue with TT-RS models has been reported with a number of different tunes from different vendors. This isn't a bash on APR! 

Thanks Arin!


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## cahill2469 (Feb 9, 2008)

Good to see you guys figured it out. I can't imagine the engineering it took to solve that one.

Any ballpark on how much it will cost to get the springs upgraded ?

I have a 2012 CC and want the K04 or Stage 3 but this makes me a little uneasy and I wouldn't want the de-tuned file -_-. I guess I will have to pop the pvc off and see if I can identify the springs. What is the chance that a 2012 CC/Gli doesn't have the weak springs ? Does anyone have a 2012 CC / Gli and K04 without this problem ?


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Yes, I do have customers without the problem. I also have some customers now coming forward without the problem showing different spring colors. Furthermore our in house GLI has the same bad springs and our stage 3 kit, but doesn't have misfires. This is likely do to the fact stage 3 has a larger manifold, wastegate and turbine opening so there's far less backpressure.


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## cahill2469 (Feb 9, 2008)

So it sounds like the best solution is to skip K04 and got straight to stage 3 lol.

Sounds good if I win the raffle !


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2004)

I think many people are bypassing the obvious. There are a ton of k04 cars out there with no issue. Its only about an hour job to pull the coils and pcv and you should be able to see what springs you have. 

My guess is there must be some sort of quantity of cars with the better springs as they don't have the misfire issue. Ill be the first to say, financially the S3 is better for my sales but the K04 on a TSI is just awesome. Its worth checking the springs rather then just nix'ing the idea of the K04 right away.


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

hightechrdn said:


> Great contribution to the VAG community.


 :thumbup:


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## Schrottplatzer (Jun 13, 2009)

:thumbup: I'm glad we finally found the source of the problem after 6 painful months. I personally know that APR has gone to great length to figure this one out. They flew out to Portland to examine my car and another local GLI owner with the problem. :thumbup: Now to take care of the people who bought it before this necessary spring check was determined.


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## Mitzplyc (Dec 24, 2012)

*reduces engine output in the upper RPM range u*

Hi, Arin!

You said that a secondary workaround to this issue is a software file that reduces engine output in the upper RPM.

Would you please give us more information about this reduction's numbers? Is the reduction only at upper RPM? How many Hp are lost? And what about torque reduction at upper RPM?

Thanks!


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## xtremvw3 (Jun 10, 2011)

We have a customer that as been battling this issue, he is now in our shop getting complete Integrated engineering valvetrain, will be done tommorow will report if it did fix the misfire problem


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## DasCC (Feb 24, 2009)

:thumbup:


Sent from my iDevice


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Mitzplyc said:


> Hi, Arin!
> 
> You said that a secondary workaround to this issue is a software file that reduces engine output in the upper RPM.
> 
> ...


It's mainly a reduction in boost in the upper RPM range. I unfortunately do not have dyno figures.


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## xtremvw3 (Jun 10, 2011)

we have finish the install of IE valvetrain then started raining so could not see if it fixed the problem, im sure customer will let me know asap. one thing for sure the OEM are soft as hell, so little effort to remove keepers


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## gabriel42 (Nov 23, 2011)

Haven't had this issue yet (Knock on wood) but would like to know how much it cost to swap the springs?


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## xtremvw3 (Jun 10, 2011)

depends what springs you buy, but with whole spring kit with titatium retainers 1200$ installed


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## Gradysmith (Feb 18, 2012)

xtremvw3 said:


> depends what springs you buy, but with whole spring kit with titatium retainers 1200$ installed


Looks like the kit from IE is $600, so install is $600. I thought I heard someone say its about a 8 hour labor job, so $600 may be justified.


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## xtremvw3 (Jun 10, 2011)

yeah about 8hr labor


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## FLtrooper (Jul 16, 2012)

xtremvw3 said:


> We have a customer that as been battling this issue, he is now in our shop getting complete Integrated engineering valvetrain, will be done tommorow will report if it did fix the misfire problem


*Big thanks to Marc and the guys @ www.VAPmotorsports.com for getting my K04 Mk6 GLi running right*

:thumbup:


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## 91 16V Jetta (Dec 6, 1999)

Trooper you are able to use the normal k04 file now? Can you tell much difference in the butt dyno?


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## FLtrooper (Jul 16, 2012)

91 16V Jetta said:


> Trooper you are able to use the normal k04 file now? Can you tell much difference in the butt dyno?


Well the clutch dyno says its making more power because it never slipped before until now. I am still on stock clutch at 8k miles. 

I don't have much time in it since the install due to inclement weather though It appears to be stronger. Once I figure out the clutch ordeal I will get her on a dyno! 

:beer:


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## 91 16V Jetta (Dec 6, 1999)

Thanks. I think my clutch made it about the same distance.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

FLtrooper said:


> Well the clutch dyno says its making more power because it never slipped before until now. I am still on stock clutch at 8k miles.
> 
> I don't have much time in it since the install due to inclement weather though It appears to be stronger. Once I figure out the clutch ordeal I will get her on a dyno!
> 
> :beer:


Haha :laugh:

So glad it's sorted!


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## NS01GTI (Jan 31, 2005)

FLtrooper said:


> Well the clutch dyno says its making more power because it never slipped before until now. I am still on stock clutch at 8k miles.
> 
> I don't have much time in it since the install due to inclement weather though It appears to be stronger. Once I figure out the clutch ordeal I will get her on a dyno!
> 
> :beer:


:laugh::laugh:

Definite progress. Clutch and dyno ASAP please. opcorn:


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## johnnyR32 (Aug 31, 2004)

Installed a KO4 on my '13 Tiguan this weekend........took it for a drive and at 6k misfires started happening. So i guess I'll be upgrading the springs.


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## Gradysmith (Feb 18, 2012)

johnnyR32 said:


> Installed a KO4 on my '13 Tiguan this weekend........took it for a drive and at 6k misfires started happening. So i guess I'll be upgrading the springs.


Not sure, but i think the weak springs will throw a CEL and maybe even a EPC light and go into limp mode. And i have heard it is more at like 6500 RPM. Your misfires may be spark plugs and/or coil packs. Both are known to go with K04 upgrade.


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## johnnyR32 (Aug 31, 2004)

Gradysmith said:


> Not sure, but i think the weak springs will throw a CEL and maybe even a EPC light and go into limp mode. And i have heard it is more at like 6500 RPM. Your misfires may be spark plugs and/or coil packs. Both are known to go with K04 upgrade.


I get both lights and it was prob at 6500 I just know it was over 6000. I swapped coil packs and it made no difference. It's also on cylinders 3 and 2 as described.


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## FLtrooper (Jul 16, 2012)

Gradysmith said:


> Not sure, but i think the weak springs will throw a CEL and maybe even a EPC light and go into limp mode. And i have heard it is more at like 6500 RPM. Your misfires may be spark plugs and/or coil packs. Both are known to go with K04 upgrade.



I had the misfires/cel's/epc at 5,800+ rpms..

If you driving a Tig, GLI, or CC and it misses in the higher rpms after the K04 install, you can pretty much assume its spring related! 

:thumbup:


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## abacorrado (Apr 5, 2005)

Would this apply to the 2011 and up Audi TT with the Valvelift engine?


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## Schrottplatzer (Jun 13, 2009)

*New tune?*

Has anyone tried the "resolved" tune yet? I refuse to dump another $1200 into my car. I'm still waiting for the product I paid for ten months ago. APR has sent my vendor bad equipment twice now. I think I'm about done with them. Any other software suggestions? 

A bit pissed about spending all the money for their kit, plus the other required hardware, and having nothing but troubles for 10 months now! One thing is for certain, I will never purchase another APR product again, nor recommend any friends do. I understand they've been great in the past, but I'm not a prior customer, I'm a current customer!


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## turboniumboost (Feb 3, 2011)

Schrottplatzer said:


> Has anyone tried the "resolved" tune yet? I refuse to dump another $1200 into my car. I'm still waiting for the product I paid for ten months ago. APR has sent my vendor bad equipment twice now. I think I'm about done with them. Any other software suggestions?
> 
> A bit pissed about spending all the money for their kit, plus the other required hardware, and having nothing but troubles for 10 months now! One thing is for certain, I will never purchase another APR product again, nor recommend any friends do. I understand they've been great in the past, but I'm not a prior customer, I'm a current customer!


You just dont get it do you? VW changed the car mid production ( i assume to save money somehow) how is this apr's fault? They found the problem, if you dont want to spend money on the solution thats your prerogative but how are they still the bad guy?

I saw your other post in the other thread of the same thing. I too find it odd in numerous months your local vendor cant get good equipment? sounds fishy as there are plenty of others getting their gli's APR chipped no problem.


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## mfractal (May 16, 2005)

Arin, quick question. Is this problem isolated to vw or have you guys seen it in audi tsi motors as well? 

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2


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## jspirate (Jan 15, 2011)

mfractala3 said:


> Arin, quick question. Is this problem isolated to vw or have you guys seen it in audi tsi motors as well?
> 
> Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2


This was addressed in the original post.


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## mfractal (May 16, 2005)

jspirate said:


> This was addressed in the original post.


Not really... Its just says that documented cases primarily exist on vw cars.. 

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2


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## jspirate (Jan 15, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> The issues these vehicles have faced are very similar to one existing on some Audi S3 and TTS vehicles in the past. Ultimately it was determined by Audi the valve springs were weak enough to cause issues even on completely stock vehicles, so Audi released a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) advising dealerships how to replace the problematic parts.


I thought you were asking about similar problems on the Audi's?

Sorry if I misunderstood.


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## Gradysmith (Feb 18, 2012)

If VW switched springs rates sometime in 11' or 12', i'm guessing that any TSI going forward will have this issue as well (13', 14', 15', ....). If this is the case, hopefully APR is working on a cheaper solution (other than a detune) besides $1000 for vavle spring upgrade. 

I can see a big drop in orders for K04's for anyone with a new vehicle (13' and on). $2600 for turbo kit + $1000 for springs and it becomes a less attractive option for more power. 

Come on APR, come up with a cheaper solution (besides detune). Like a manifold or wastegate modification, some extra machining on the turbo, etc. Something in the couple hundred dollar range.

I'm sure that time is limited for older models. Probably people that have 10' or older and considered a K04 probably already have it. So the focus should be on satisfying newer models.

Then again, maybe its possible APR will have two tunes available, pre 11', and post 11' model year.


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2004)

Gradysmith said:


> If VW switched springs rates sometime in 11' or 12', i'm guessing that any TSI going forward will have this issue as well (13', 14', 15', ....). If this is the case, hopefully APR is working on a cheaper solution (other than a detune) besides $1000 for vavle spring upgrade.


The cheapest option is a detune. It wont be practical to to spend tons of time and money R&D'ing and modifying stock turbos to fix problems on certain cars. 

This is all pretty much negated anyway as from my understanding the current 2.0TSI wont be around much longer, the next generation engines are just around the corner.


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## Aguilar (Jan 28, 2006)

There's no mention of GTIs having this problem, but have any 2013 GTIs been checked for the weaker springs? 

I had an '09 TSI k04, and plan to go the same route with my '13.


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## mfractal (May 16, 2005)

jspirate said:


> I thought you were asking about similar problems on the Audi's?
> 
> Sorry if I misunderstood.


No, no. You understood correctly. It's just that it isn't clear for me from the first post. 
This is why I asked for a confirmation. I am still not sure  
Is the issue isolated to vw or are there confirmed audi cases as well? 

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2


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## Gradysmith (Feb 18, 2012)

Arin,
What valve springs will be sufficient for fixing the issue?

Ferrea? IE? Supertech?

Supertech seems to be the cheapest. Anything cheaper?


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Gradysmith said:


> Arin,
> What valve springs will be sufficient for fixing the issue?
> 
> Ferrea? IE? Supertech?
> ...


I really can't say for sure. I would imagine aftermarket springs are sufficient, but be careful. Some are extreme, and will crack the oem valves in half. Typically if this the case, the manufacturer will warn you of the need to run updated valves.


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## FLtrooper (Jul 16, 2012)

Gradysmith said:


> Arin,
> What valve springs will be sufficient for fixing the issue?
> 
> Ferrea? IE? Supertech?
> ...


I know of plenty, including myself that run the IE valve springs and Ti-Retainers with the OEM valves! 


:thumbup:


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## ina04gli1.8t (Sep 24, 2010)

xtremvw3 said:


> yeah about 8hr labor


I don't know of a single shop that charges less than $90 per hour, I would think $600 to replace the springs is low. I'm also wondering if this is exclusive to the cc, as my gti has had numerous coil pack replacements on cylinder #3. My engine light is on again, I scanned it & have misfires on all four cylinders.


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## jspirate (Jan 15, 2011)

My shop quoted 5 hours with the correct tool. I think it can be done in less than 5 hours by someone with some experience with said tool. Otherwise, the head has to be pulled and it will be more than 5 hours.

At least thats what I've figured out through conversations with my shop. I may have misinterpreted something though...


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## brunoxmatoss (May 24, 2013)

the horror... my CC had a broken valve spring on cylinder 1 replaced under warranty. im having the same issue again but this 'time on cylinder #4... im pretty sure its the valve spring again.. the dealer refuses to swap them all out together, 

and now i checked the picture to see the valve spring they used to replace my first broken one... its one of the weak ones =.(


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## jspirate (Jan 15, 2011)

FLtrooper said:


> I know of plenty, including myself that run the IE valve springs and Ti-Retainers with the OEM valves!
> 
> 
> :thumbup:


I had em done yesterday, so add me to the list! Those light titanium retainers make the whole car feel like it is 500 lbs lighter


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## kakluote (Nov 19, 2011)

i have the same issue

anyone has sloved the issue by change the springs??


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## jspirate (Jan 15, 2011)

kakluote said:


> anyone has sloved the issue by change the springs??





FLtrooper said:


> I know of plenty, including myself that run the IE valve springs and Ti-Retainers with the OEM valves!
> 
> 
> :thumbup:


As FLTropper said a few posts earlier, this is pretty much a known solution. The springs fixed it for me also...


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## kakluote (Nov 19, 2011)

jspirate said:


> As FLTropper said a few posts earlier, this is pretty much a known solution. The springs fixed it for me also...



where did u buy the good springs?


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## MAXSPEED (Sep 16, 2001)

FLtrooper said:


> I know of plenty, including myself that run the IE valve springs and Ti-Retainers with the OEM valves!
> 
> 
> :thumbup:


There you have the answer


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## TTAdict (Aug 3, 2010)

To confirm as some members already mentioned it in earlier posts, changing the valve springs to any of the aftermarket types will solve the misfire issues at higher rpm (especially for BWA, BPY engines produced after 2006 ).

I solved misfires issue with the Supertech valve springs and titanium retainers installed to the OEM valves.

Good luck to everybody.


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2004)

TTAdict said:


> To confirm as some members already mentioned it in earlier posts, changing the valve springs to any of the aftermarket types will solve the misfire issues at higher rpm (especially for BWA, BPY engines produced after 2006 ).
> 
> I solved misfires issue with the Supertech valve springs and titanium retainers installed to the OEM valves.
> 
> Good luck to everybody.


Im not familiar with the BWA as Im not sure if its available in the states, but they issue this thread is about is not found on BPY engines. It is on later CC/GLI TSI engine. I've never seen or heard of this problem on other engines.


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## CrazyG5 (Dec 1, 2012)

Hello @ all

My Audi S3 8P 2007 have the Yellow/Red Exhaust Valve springs

At MK6 TSI Engine are Bad Springs...

Red/Yellow Valve Springs on S3 BHZ Engine are similar with MK6 TSI Engine?

Many writing white yellow would be wrong... but by CDL Engine


Thanks for Help


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## fsttrp (Nov 15, 2011)

*Change with care!*

I asked the Audi dealer to swap the spring to the correct one (older ones) since my car misfires at higher rpm and after they did, they run the engine for about 30 minutes. 

The timing belt stripped!! which causes the piston to hit all valves!! x.x

They said this is due to the higher rating valve spring installed. :thumbdown::thumbdown:

Still waiting for damage analysis....


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2004)

fsttrp said:


> I asked the Audi dealer to swap the spring to the correct one (older ones) since my car misfires at higher rpm and after they did, they run the engine for about 30 minutes.
> 
> The timing belt stripped!! which causes the piston to hit all valves!! x.x
> 
> ...


This issue is specific to the TSI valve spring issue, the TSI doesn't have a timing belt?!?


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## gefunden (Jan 18, 2009)

Can I bring this back from the dead? Since just recently going K04 a month ago I have been experiencing this symptom. A local tuner shop told me that the entire head has to come off to swap out the valves. Is that true? I got an absolutely insane quote to do the job. Car is a 2012 GTI cbfa 
Any answers are greatly appreciated.


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## louiekaps (Aug 12, 2013)

When apr first released these I asked if they were doing them with the head on and they said yes. You'd obviously have to have a special valve spring compressor to do that as a traditional valve spring compressor requires the head to be off the vehicle.


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## jspirate (Jan 15, 2011)

louiekaps said:


> When apr first released these I asked if they were doing them with the head on and they said yes. You'd obviously have to have a special valve spring compressor to do that as a traditional valve spring compressor requires the head to be off the vehicle.


Said tool in crappy potato pic...


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## gefunden (Jan 18, 2009)

I'm getting mixed answers on this...Two Indy shops have told me the head has to come off. Two Indy Shops have told me that the head can stay on. 
When I called APR they even told me the head has to come off. 
I'm going with a trusted mechanic that has done plenty of upgrades to it so far...He has told me that the head can stay on...and I believe him.
Why are some shops just going right ahead and saying outright that the head has to come off when clearly they know it can be done without all that extra labor?
$ comes to mind. 

I'm just hoping that all goes well and nothing happpens that they have to rip the head off.

Any one else like to add any of their experiences?


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## louiekaps (Aug 12, 2013)

Neither shop is wrong. It all depends on which style tool they have. If they don't have a tool that will do it with the head on then you have to take the head off.


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## jspirate (Jan 15, 2011)

gefunden said:


> I'm getting mixed answers on this...Two Indy shops have told me the head has to come off. Two Indy Shops have told me that the head can stay on.
> When I called APR they even told me the head has to come off.
> I'm going with a trusted mechanic that has done plenty of upgrades to it so far...He has told me that the head can stay on...and I believe him.
> Why are some shops just going right ahead and saying outright that the head has to come off when clearly they know it can be done without all that extra labor?
> ...


The head does NOT need to come off. I been running the IE springs with Ti retainers for a good while now and they were installed without the head coming off. The shop does need the tool...


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## gefunden (Jan 18, 2009)

Thank You JSPIRATE


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## GeosAvant (Apr 17, 2004)

gefunden said:


> I'm getting mixed answers on this...Two Indy shops have told me the head has to come off. Two Indy Shops have told me that the head can stay on.
> When I called APR they even told me the head has to come off.
> I'm going with a trusted mechanic that has done plenty of upgrades to it so far...He has told me that the head can stay on...and I believe him.
> Why are some shops just going right ahead and saying outright that the head has to come off when clearly they know it can be done without all that extra labor?
> ...


Well, I haven't replaced my springs yet on this car, but I've done it on other cars. Pulling the head off the car decreases the likelihood of accidentally dropping a valve. The chances are low that is will occur if it is a seasoned shop. I've done spring replacements with a cylinder head on and off the car. If you leave it on the car, you don't necessarily know if there is anything with the valves and valve seats. Or if the valve guides are worn out. Or something else. Of the two options, I prefer pulling the head off so I can look inside the engine, make sure everything is okay. Plus I can swap out the head bolts for ARPs. On the VW, I can see why you _wouldn't_ want to do that, as it looks to be quite involved on reassembly, increasing the costs for the job.

In short, I don't think that there is really a "wrong way"; it's part personal preference, part budget.

I hope this helps.


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