# MKIV 24v turbo is down on power, felt stronger on stock, slipping clutch last year.



## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

I'm on my way back from SnG and just need to get this post up so I can get some suggestions as to what could be wrong, because I am co fused to say the least...

I have a 24v mkiv turbo that weighs 2870 lbs running 8-9 psi off the spring (precision 6165). I was taking it down once on the spring before adding any more boost, but after I had realized I just parked the car and enjoyed the show since I needed to drive it home.

Car seems to be running great. Solid idle, holds boost, not breaking up, and a BRAND NEW fx400 in the car...freshly broken in.

However, today at the track I could only muster up a disappointing 98 mph... Which my car did stock with an exhaust.

What could be wrong? If you need any more info or logs of anything let me know and I will do them.

cheers
-Dan
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

whats the breakdown of the timeslip look like?


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Nothing special, i wasn't going for broke when I took it out, I was just testing that everything was ok before upping the boost and going all out...which never happened because i jsut parked it.

I'll grab it tomorrow and scan it or type it up. I think the best i ran was a 14.8 @98


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

Need to see the entire timeslip to determine anything. If you were going easy on the pass then it's irrelevant anyway.


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## slo deno (Jul 10, 2007)

3sec 60ft's will not help you bud.


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## R32Smoker (Oct 21, 2010)

How low is your compression? I've found my car (which is 8.0:1 compression) on low boost is not very fast at all. I'm pretty sure my buddies 3.5 Altima could take me if I was only running 8 lbs :sly:


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## JoHnsVrT (Feb 1, 2007)

what tire were you on because if it was a street tire its gnna be tough to catch any traction wat so ever.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Lets not make this a thread about my racing skills, and if you don't have anything real or useful to contribute please keep your comments to yourselves.:beer:

The car felt alot faster to me when it had the slipping clutch and a reducer off the downpipe into a 2.5" :screwy:

Yesterday was just proof in the pudding that the car is not making power, because 14.8 @ 98mph is just silly. 3 times in a row might I add. I may not be the best racer off the tree, but it was time trials anyway, and was testing.

I wish i had one of my old slips from last year with the bad clutch. I ran a g37s in the lane next to me and in the first 2 gears i put a bunch of lengths on him before shifting into 3rd and slipping so i let off (thats when i discovered i needed a clutch)...However this time, with a freer flowing exhaust and a new clutch I couldn't pull on a mk2 jetta 12v no matter where we were on the track :sly:

Here's the breakdown. 60' isn't the best but AGAIN, the car wasn't really spinning the tires...it's like it has no power but runs fine.

I did 3 runs before just parking it during the testing/time trial time they gave us and then just parked it knowing something was wrong. All of the runs were almost identical within hundreths, so here's 1:

60'...2.57
330...6.51
1/8...9.79
MPH...75.7
1000...12.56
1/4...14.86
MPH...98.5

I drove it on the highway today, and the funny thing is...the only time it feels like it has power is if i'm cruising at 60-70 and put my foot down in 6th gear...then it starts to pull like a freight train :screwy: Thats one of the strangest parts about it all.

However...If i downshift into 4th on the highway and put my foot down it makes a crap ton of noise but doesn't accelerate. Same story rolling into WOT from a stop light. 

I had my friends in college ride with me who have been in my car before (without mentioning the fact i had a problem) and he mentioned it didn't feel like it was accelerating as hard as it used to even on the stock clutch :facepalm:

And i know this new clutch is not slipping...it's not making that oh so easily noticeable feeling and sound of a slipping clutch.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

JoHnsVrT said:


> what tire were you on because if it was a street tire its gnna be tough to catch any traction wat so ever.


bfg g-force t/a kdw 2



R32Smoker said:


> How low is your compression? I've found my car (which is 8.0:1 compression) on low boost is not very fast at all. I'm pretty sure my buddies 3.5 Altima could take me if I was only running 8 lbs :sly:


Stock 24v compression, actually.


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## JoHnsVrT (Feb 1, 2007)

to start to try and find your problem start with a compression test. what kind of management are you running??


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

JoHnsVrT said:


> to start to try and find your problem start with a compression test. what kind of management are you running??


Jeff Atwood tune on the stock bosch ecu
630cc Injectors

I can compression test it this weekend when I go home, so i'll keep that in mind as a suggestion. 

Father owns a shop, which I work at when i'm not away from home. That being said, I have access to most, if not everything, i need to test the car.

I'm just trying to get ideas before I go home because i only have 2 days to crack into it and then it has to be back on the road.

I also think i'm going to take a bore scope to one of the holes for the pre-cat o2 sensor and take a look at the cat to see if it's really nasty while i'm at it.

I had a situation where the throttle body boost pipe popped off on the highway and I limped it back to the house which was like 5 miles so i could put it back together, but i don't know if that's enough to back the cat up, though it is very tiny.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

Log the timing and AFRs, and check for restrictions(like the cat).
Probably pulling a lot of timing or the cat is clogged..


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Found this today as well:

Cleared them, and drove a good 40 miles or more and they haven't set again...we'll see tomorrow.

3 Faults Found:
17947 - Clutch Pedal Switch (F36): Implausible Signal
P1539 -- 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16685 - Cylinder 1 Misfire Detected
P0301 -- 35-10 - - - Intermittent
16699 - SAE: Crankshaft Position System Variation Not Learned
P0315 -- 35-10 - - - Intermittent


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

sp_golf said:


> Log the timing and AFRs, and check for restrictions(like the cat).
> Probably pulling a lot of timing or the cat is clogged..


I'll do that tomorrow and post it up if i can :beer:


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## darrenewest (Oct 28, 2001)

I had a turbo 24v and the stock gearing in the o2m really hurt the cars performance .... but once on the highway in 5th or 6th gear it was a beast. My main problem was smaller turbine housing and the ecu pulling a lot of timing.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

darrenewest said:


> I had a turbo 24v and the stock gearing in the o2m really hurt the cars performance .... but once on the highway in 5th or 6th gear it was a beast. My main problem was smaller turbine housing and the ecu pulling a lot of timing.


Yeah definitely... but I seriously doubt it should trap the same speed as my car did when stock...that is a sure indication that the car does not want to move as fast as it should under boost.

I'm going to log timing and everything tomorrow to see what it's doing across the board.

I mean even when I stomp on it in 2nd it doesn't really spin the tires, just builds boost and accelerates slowly to redline. I used to be able to get it to spin the tires in 2nd gear with my stock clutch just because it wasn't such high load, but now...nothing

The car felt stronger a year ago when i first finished it too. Being at the track yesterday was just like the icing on the cake to really make me realize something isn't right. I guess i could've dyno'd it too and realized it's down on power, but i didn't get a chance yet.


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

I'd say your best bet is a clogged cat or sticking wastegate.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

djsheijkdfj said:


> I'd say your best bet is a clogged cat or sticking wastegate.


By sticking wastegate what do you actually mean? Sticking closed, open, opening too much?


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

Lieutenant Dan said:


> By sticking wastegate what do you actually mean? Sticking closed, open, opening too much?


most likely open, otherwise you would have blown everything up boosting to the sky.


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

Sticking open. 

Do you have a boost gauge? Is it holding the boost that it always has to redline? Does it "kick" when it spools up, or does it seem sluggish to spool?


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## Pats16vGTI (Mar 2, 2004)

yeah whats going on with the boost? perhaps boost leak somewhere? sounds like a problem I had a million years ago with a 16vt I built in HS apparently those rubber hd plumming connectors cant withstand the underhood heat lol.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

djsheijkdfj said:


> Sticking open.
> 
> Do you have a boost gauge? Is it holding the boost that it always has to redline? Does it "kick" when it spools up, or does it seem sluggish to spool?



I do have a boost gauge, I haven't really had a chance to look down at it for a lengthy period of time but i'll see if i can get a little vid of it or something to help me out.

Spool seems to be a bit slow, however the turbo starts to whistle really early when still in vacuum...not sure if that matters.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Pats16vGTI said:


> yeah whats going on with the boost? perhaps boost leak somewhere? sounds like a problem I had a million years ago with a 16vt I built in HS apparently those rubber hd plumming connectors cant withstand the underhood heat lol.


If i had a boost leak wouldn't it be similar as a vacuum leak and the car wouldn't be smooth at idle, etc? Or does a boost leak only 'appear' under boost from the pressure, but could allows the car to have normal vacuum readings and feel.


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

A boost leak could appear only in boost. The car would run extremely rich and you would have lower boost than you should.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

I've been trying to figure out what I need to log for timing because i know some factors about it are more important than others....what are the blocks i should log for that?

Did an AFR log though:


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

djsheijkdfj said:


> A boost leak could appear only in boost. The car would run extremely rich and you would have lower boost than you should.


Not really if the car uses closed loop lambda control with a WB02


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

Lieutenant Dan said:


> I've been trying to figure out what I need to log for timing because i know some factors about it are more important than others....what are the blocks i should log for that?


AFRs look good
I can't remember what block it is but just scroll down until you find the one that logs RPM, req timing and actual timing


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## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

sp_golf said:


> AFRs look good
> I can't remember what block it is but just scroll down until you find the one that logs RPM, req timing and actual timing


*2


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## slcturbo (Apr 19, 2010)

slo deno said:


> 3sec 60ft's will not help you bud.


Not the ET, but his trap is way too low. The bad 60' wont hurt his trap and could actually help it.


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## Black Ice (Apr 27, 2006)

The timing might be a little off, I'm sure it would give you your symptoms..just a sugestion.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Ok, so I had a bad Coilpack issue suddenly last week. Started misfiring like crazy and finally changed the number 3 and it was sounding normal again. Could my coil-packs be the cause of this drop in power? Should I just change them all?

*The car feels like it accelerates faster (the way it should) from a 5th/6th gear roll on the highway than it does taking off than from any other gear where it just feels like it's falling on its face and not accelerating once the tach actually climbs*

It's still not spinning tire if i romp it in 1st gear which is something i've seen VRTs running less boost do...it doesn't take much.

:screwy:


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

You're wasting your time trying to figure out how it runs based on how it feels in high gear and whether or not it spins it's tires in 1st gear. I wouldn't be beating on the car until it's running right if I were you.

With all the info, sounds like it's pulling timing. Log the timing to confirm and then figure out why.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Yep, datalog your ignition timing advance. Something is off...

What spark plugs are you running?


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

DieGTi said:


> Yep, datalog your ignition timing advance. Something is off...
> 
> What spark plugs are you running?


x2
and check for boost leaks, especially at the manifold/head.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

djsheijkdfj said:


> You're wasting your time trying to figure out how it runs based on how it feels in high gear and whether or not it spins it's tires in 1st gear. I wouldn't be beating on the car until it's running right if I were you.
> 
> With all the info, sounds like it's pulling timing. Log the timing to confirm and then figure out why.



I tried to do that but I couldn't get a solid answer as to where and what I should log in order to have what I need to figure it out.

I hollowed out the cat, which I thought was the problem. It was a disaster when I went to take out, completely collapsed...that's the only reason I ever 'beat' on it afterwards. I thought "after how messed up that cat was, it had to be the issue" so i went and drove it a bit hard to see...same issue, and that's where it stopped.

After realizing it didn't do a thing. I realized like "alright something else is wrong" and parked it to just finish my year at school and get my degree. I went to go to the store and when I started it I had a misfire from one day to the next. I changed the coils and it was fine, but I never boosted it after that...I actually just brought it home over the local ferry and left it there swapped for a work van for the time being until i'm done with the year.

Story became a bit twisted because time for me to post is limited right now, so I post really late, and really fast and not well thought out so I apologize for the quick story making me seem ridiculous.

I'm just posting what I notice and the fact that it hasn't gotten better is the only reason i'm back here posting because I realize it's something else ie: timing, however I do not know what to log to find out what is really wrong...I get different answers everywhere I search.



DieGTi said:


> Yep, datalog your ignition timing advance. Something is off...
> 
> What spark plugs are you running?


brand new bkr7e's at 024


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

The logs channels are all labeled so you can flip through like you do when watching tv. When you get to the channel you want then stop. Takes just a minute for someone from our generation to scroll through 100 channels.


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

DieGTi said:


> The logs channels are all labeled so you can flip through like you do when watching tv. When you get to the channel you want then stop. Takes just a minute for someone from our generation to scroll through 100 channels.


x2
You can log 003 or 010 IIRC


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

I'll do some logs on tuesday.

I know how Vag works and how to use it, but i could never get a straight answer on what blocks were actual vs which ones were requested timing

I ordered 6 brand new coil OE coil packs very cheap, and they should arrive then. I already knew one was bad, so since I could get them so cheap I want to replace them all. 

Once they are all changed and I know everything there is at 100% i'll log it, and post them up.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

So it turns out It was my version of VAG-COM that wasn't allowing me to see the 2-4th column of the measuring blocks which is why I was having such a hard time finding ignition timing.

It's in the 4th column of the block and all the 4th columns were showing up as N/A for some reason. I uninstalled it all including the drivers and re-installed it. Now everything shows up correctly and all the columns and blocks are visible.

I'll log tomorrow after the coils are in :thumbup:


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Alright. I took some logs of timing, and the MAF. I don't know if I graphed them correctly to be honest, but I tried. I left the original raw spread in there just in case I did something wrong. Time is restricted for me to do this right now with finals, so forgive if I did it incorrectly.


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## BLSport (Dec 24, 2005)

You could also check out the knock control measuring blocks, which will show how many degrees of timing are being pulled out to counteract the onset of knock; I believe these blocks are 020 (cyl's 1-4) and 021 (cyl's 5 & 6) in your case.


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

I'm no expert in this area, but your timing seems extremely low. I would expect 20-30 degrees throughout the RPM range. Like I said though, I'm no expert....

I'd see what it's pulling out like the above posted suggested if you can.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

djsheijkdfj said:


> I'm no expert in this area, but your timing seems extremely low. I would expect 20-30 degrees throughout the RPM range. Like I said though, I'm no expert....
> 
> I'd see what it's pulling out like the above posted suggested if you can.


I'll try and do that.

Also, someone also locally mentioned that they feel that my MAF isn't reading what it should? 4" housing, stock sensor.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

That timing is extremely retarded. Max timing on 91 octane for an all-motor 24v without knock is around 33.5 degrees. You're bottoming out at 4 degrees. I'm surprised you ran the time you did!

From the limited data you've posted, it seems that the car is fine out of boost; the timing under partial load seems fine but then drops considerably as load increases. Something will correlate with the timing drop and you'll be able to find it in vagcom. Find the knock correction but also view your blocks for intake air temp, coolant temp, etc... The 24v has an intake air temp sensor within the MAF sensor so a chip tune is usually conservative as the engine doesn't have an accurate way of determining the true post-turbo charge temp. It nothing unusual shows in the datalogs or measuring blocks then it may be the way the chip was written just so it's safe.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Hmm. *Another thing I noticed today when I did this log for Knock that i'm about to post...the car felt abnormally strong.*. It doesn't even really correlate with the other day's data on timing :screwy:

Could it be that the car just starts to run worse the longer it's been 'warm' or already driving. The reason I ask is because today I basically started the car for the first time, let it warm up, and then went out to log. It even felt pretty strong to me; way stronger than usual.

Here are those logs: (there's a gear shift into 4th to decel in there that I didn't cut out of the graph)


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Yep... I believe there is a CLT temp threshold for the knock control to become active (the older mgmt systems had this). My bentley is at home... I'll see what I can find when I'm back there later tonight.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

That should have felt much better with the timing bottoming out under load at 11.3 degrees... This would be appropriate timing for a much higher boost level. Maybe time to crank it up?  When in doubt... turn up the boost.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

DieGTi said:


> That should have felt much better with the timing bottoming out under load at 11.3 degrees... This would be appropriate timing for a much higher boost level. Maybe time to crank it up?  When in doubt... turn up the boost.


IDK if I want to crank it, when it intermittently runs real bad/slow at WOT. I'd like to crank it but I want to figure out the problem and find a fix first off the waste gate spring at low boost.

What could explain the logs from the other day where it was all over the place, but today its fine?

I still haven't changed all the coils, they just came in so I'm doing it tomorrow. Could that be it? MAF?


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Have you ever had service done on the knock sensors? If they've been torqued incorrectly then it can affect the function of the sensor. 15ft lbs is what the manual calls for... might be worth having those checked. 

Not that I would recommend it but in the old days people would put nylon spacers between the sensor and the block in order to stop the ecu from retarding the timing... runs like hell but you better have good ears or a knock light to know when to lift.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Nah they haven't been touched since the car was new.

I did all the work to the car myself at my dad's repair shop, with my father by my side as well. Basically a joint effort. I guess I could take a look at them if there could possibly be a problem.


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

I generally have best luck with BKR7E's at .022" I wish BKR8E's were available, but I cant ever find them. My Car seems to HATE the *EIX plugs for some reason.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Beyond changing the plugs, I have a pair of 24v knock sensors laying around if you find that you need them or would like to try them. The cyl 2-4-6 sensor is on the front of the engine and that seems to be where the action is. LMK, I'll throw then in a usps priority flat rate envelope if you paypal me $5.


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

Your timing is obviously pulling right in line with the knock. Looks like it's reading knock from the front bank..... I'd start by checking your plugs really good to look for any signs of detonation going on, and then replacing the knock sensor.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Doing 6 plugs and coils as we speak, I'll see how it is afterwards if not i'll look into a knock sensor :beer:


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

Lieutenant Dan said:


> Doing 6 plugs and coils as we speak, I'll see how it is afterwards if not i'll look into a knock sensor :beer:


Sounds good. Honestly my car acts very similarly. I wonder if my knock sensors have something to do with it also, never even thought of them. However smaller gaps have helped for me.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

PhReE said:


> Sounds good. Honestly my car acts very similarly. I wonder if my knock sensors have something to do with it also, never even thought of them. However smaller gaps have helped for me.


If feels like it's randomly down on a good amount of power?


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

Lieutenant Dan said:


> If feels like it's randomly down on a good amount of power?


Not exactly randomly, I can make it pull alot of timing in certain scenarios. I can also make it misfire in certain scenarios too. But some days its a lot more pissy than others. It certainly isnt perfect. Definitely sensitive to the weather. Doesnt like when it's wet, but it does like the cold.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

So here are some logs right after putting in new coils and plugs :banghead: I don't get it...


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Might want to send Jeff a link so we can get some input from him. I think your knock retard is a bit sensitive/aggressive. Can you post pictures of your intercooler/intake plumbing? The ping will be there certianly at higher boost levels as well. Unless there is something blatently wrong such as poor intercooling design then I think you're down to either the software, phantom knock(engine noise such as chains) or a knock sensor as the cause.


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

DieGTi said:


> Might want to send Jeff a link so we can get some input from him. I think your knock retard is a bit sensitive/aggressive. Can you post pictures of your intercooler/intake plumbing? The ping will be there certianly at higher boost levels as well. Unless there is something blatently wrong such as poor intercooling design then I think you're down to either the software, phantom knock(engine noise such as chains) or a knock sensor as the cause.


I can pretty much narrow that down to the knock sensor...


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

DieGTi said:


> Might want to send Jeff a link so we can get some input from him. I think your knock retard is a bit sensitive/aggressive. Can you post pictures of your intercooler/intake plumbing? The ping will be there certianly at higher boost levels as well. Unless there is something blatently wrong such as poor intercooling design then I think you're down to either the software, phantom knock(engine noise such as chains) or a knock sensor as the cause.


I did send Jeff the thread :beer: 

The intercooler piping is C2 motorsports hardware...pretty much on point with the fabrication; fit like a glove. Precision core as well with custom C2 end-tanks. I doubt it has to do with that.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

http://www.techtonicstuning.com/mai...id=876&zenid=1d7f296cfa97233fcfe5b39fc7221cd2

Could try a pair of these ... I probably would if I couldn't get anything else to work.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

DieGTi said:


> http://www.techtonicstuning.com/mai...id=876&zenid=1d7f296cfa97233fcfe5b39fc7221cd2
> 
> Could try a pair of these ... I probably would if I couldn't get anything else to work.


I feel like that would be a band-aid fix to a much larger problem... I'd rather live with it slow and be easy on it and just slowly diagnose the real problem and finally fix it to be honest haha

I know of plenty of 4-500whp 24v turbos out there, even local ones that don't have to run that spacer. 

Could a boost leak be causing this, or is this beyond a boost leak? Fuel filter? Fuel Pump?

*Edit. Random fact: if i go to the misfire counter measuring blocks while the car is 'key on/engine off' and then start the car, the counter always registers at least 1 misfire on a random cylinder when turning over.* It doesn't register any on the WOT pulls, i've done countless, even ones where the car feels like a dog and it still never registers a miss.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Lieutenant Dan said:


> I feel like that would be a band-aid fix to a much larger problem... I'd rather live with it slow and be easy on it and just slowly diagnose the real problem and finally fix it to be honest haha


Yeah, that was kind of a tongue in cheek suggestion. 


> I know of plenty of 4-500whp 24v turbos out there, even local ones that don't have to run that spacer.
> 
> Could a boost leak be causing this, or is this beyond a boost leak? Fuel filter? Fuel Pump?


Your air to fuel ratios look normal in the information you posted.



> *Edit. Random fact: if i go to the misfire counter measuring blocks while the car is 'key on/engine off' and then start the car, the counter always registers at least 1 misfire on a random cylinder when turning over.* It doesn't register any on the WOT pulls, i've done countless, even ones where the car feels like a dog and it still never registers a miss.


Normal to see a misfire in the block while cranking. I'll put those knock sensors in the mail today if you want. Send me a PM with your address and I'll respond with my paypal. $5. :thumbup:


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## SVTDanny (Aug 8, 2005)

PhReE said:


> Sounds good. Honestly my car acts very similarly. I wonder if my knock sensors have something to do with it also, never even thought of them. However smaller gaps have helped for me.


Smaller gaps can help prevent detonation.

Lt. Dan - Can you post up some pictures of the old plugs? They'll tell the story much better than any log will.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

djsheijkdfj said:


> Smaller gaps can help prevent detonation.
> 
> Lt. Dan - Can you post up some pictures of the old plugs? They'll tell the story much better than any log will.


Yeah I'll take a few snaps today.


DieGTi I sent you a PM


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

So today, I undid the battery terminal and let the car sit for like 30 minutes or so. Reconnected it, and waited a few minutes for the throttle body to do its thing.

Now get this...

I went out and drove the car, freshly warmed up, and even after being hot and the car feels fine. The computer was hooked up and I had my cousin watching the knock and timing and it was all normal

No knock activity, timing is dead on, and it pulls pretty damn hard. 

My question is, why? Why would this make so much of a difference? I did 3 WOT logs towards the end of this drive back to back with the car as hot as can be from fooling around and they all read absolutely normal.


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## One Gray GLI (Apr 2, 2007)

Lieutenant Dan said:


> So today, I undid the battery terminal and let the car sit for like 30 minutes or so. Reconnected it, and waited a few minutes for the throttle body to do its thing.
> 
> Now get this...
> 
> I went out and drove the car, freshly warmed up, and even after being hot and the car feels fine. The computer was hooked up and I had my cousin watching the knock and timing and it was all normal


know what's funny? I told you to do this before you logged it.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Post up some new logs... let's see where she's at. :thumbup:


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

One Gray GLI said:


> know what's funny? I told you to do this before you logged it.


yeah that's part of the reason why I did it... I couldn't see how it would make a difference but i've been scrambling for ideas and I remembered that you mentioned doing it.

I still don't get the really low MAF readings though. N/A R32 with bolt ons makes 230 g/s according to another post I have in the 24v forum. Mines only reading 150g/s max with .5bar :sly:

edit: I'll graph them now and post the latest one.:beer:


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

Lieutenant Dan said:


> yeah that's part of the reason why I did it... I couldn't see how it would make a difference but i've been scrambling for ideas and I remembered that you mentioned doing it.
> 
> I still don't get the really low MAF readings though. N/A R32 with bolt ons makes 230 g/s according to another post I have in the 24v forum. Mines only reading 150g/s max with .5bar :sly:


You can't compare your maf readings with a stock flash car running a different sized maf housing. The numbers are not real, they are just units and with BT software that runs on a bigger maf and bigger injectors the numbers are all scaled.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

PhReE said:


> You can't compare your maf readings with a stock flash car running a different sized maf housing. The numbers are not real, they are just units and with BT software that runs on a bigger maf and bigger injectors the numbers are all scaled.


That may be so, but even Jeff said in one of our PMs:



Jefnes3 said:


> From log data: total airflow is little more that n/a motor. (this explains the poor 98mph traps)
> power is little bettter than N/A.


So i don't really know what to think about it. I started to think about that later on that the change in area must be the reason for the lower reading...but I wasn't sure, and Jeff hasn't answered me back since i've responded to his last message a few days ago.

Here's the most recent log after the ECU reset. I took 3, but they all look almost identical, and this was the most clear without any shifting. As you can see, it doesn't look bad at all..


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

I could be wrong about that, and they might be scaled correctly to match, but I wouldn't count on it unless Jeff says so. He may be able to do a conversion in his head when looking at your logs since he did the S/W.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Looks much better... you could always try a little MAF cleaner. I used to keep a can in my C2 car and it came in handy often. 

Has it been running well consistently? No more random WOT soft spots?


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

I haven't really been able to really test it. The worst spot used to be going from 3-4 it would just like stop accelerating in 4th. I gotta try and get somewhere safe and test it, or even just take it to the dyno if it stays consistent now after the reset.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

So I took the Forge valve out of the car, and put the Bosch valve in that I've had here forever and the car suddenly runs infinitely better. No rough like little bucks on throttle tip in after shifts, and the turbo spools starts to spool so much earlier with much less effort. Not only that but the car doesn't flutter dump anymore, it's just a quiet recirc'd blow off sound. It also seems to want to get up and move soooo much if I roll into it a bit. I didn't do any real testing because it's raining here today, but I'm thinking that this valve has been leaking boost for a LONG while, maybe even since I first put it on. 

Could this have been the cause of all my knock and timing issues @ WOT? I'm telling you guys; it feels like a completely different machine, so much smoother no matter what I'm doing.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Yep! That'll mess with things.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

I'm glad I changed it...i almost didn't do it thinking it wouldn't make any difference.

I was cleaning my work bench and saw it sitting there and was like "hmmm....nahhh"

The only thing that got me to change was knowing that no matter what I did with spring adjustment on this damn valve it always fluttered which pissed me off, because it meant it wasn't right. So i figured I'd change it to rid that god awful ricey noise. After I changed it, to find out that car is like a new animal on top of not having that crappy noise anymore was intense I guess the valve was ju leaking boost this whole time :banghead:

So the turbo was getting to the same pressure, 7-8psi, but it was probably working so much harder since it was laggy because of the leak. All that was throwing everything completely out of whack giving me all these messed up readouts in my logs.


I think I'm going to invest in a Tial QR once I go to higher boost and the Bosch can't take it anymore, but until then the Bosch it is.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

I had a stock mk4 gli valve on my aba turbo to 20lbs of boost with no problemo.


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## One Gray GLI (Apr 2, 2007)

I still run a single 710n on my car, Dan..


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

I run a Tial BOV and so long as you set it u so long as its CLOSED AT IDLE it will work fine. I can go technical about why (besides over 3 years of personal experience) but I have already in several threads and am too lazy right now, lol.


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

PhReE said:


> I run a Tial BOV and so long as you set it u so long as its CLOSED AT IDLE it will work fine. I can go technical about why (besides over 3 years of personal experience) but I have already in several threads and am too lazy right now, lol.


Exactly. You end up with light surge if you come off the throttle under 4 psi of boost but after that its fine and I've never had any stalling issues.


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

KubotaPowered said:


> Exactly. You end up with light surge if you come off the throttle under 4 psi of boost but after that its fine and I've never had any stalling issues.


x2


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

One Gray GLI said:


> I still run a single 710n on my car, Dan..


Yeah i know i know. :laugh:

I've figured out why now the bosch works on my car, but in the past it didn't; get this...

I think my original issue back then was that the line to the DV was collapsing. I'm sure you remember that everything i put in the car was just not functioning properly, and I was swapping DVs left and right without any results.

At that point i figured the Bosch and other valves i had were just bad, so I got the forge.

When I went to install the forge, i noticed the vacuum line to the DV was fraying on the outside (had a cloth cover, and it was very soft on the inside which i felt could collapse under vacuum very easily. So I changed it to a way nicer, bigger inner diameter hose as i installed the forge.

That's when I fixed the original problem, the collapsing line, but introduced a new one with my own hands...a now _actually_ leaking DV 

So that's why now with the OEM valve and a properly functioning vacuum line the bosch is mint.

What a runaround :banghead::laugh:

I really need some :beer::beer::beer:


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## GL Rican (Aug 16, 2006)

nvm


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## somebodynowhere (Feb 11, 2010)

ahhh woot glad you fixed the problem buddy...I'll be waiting for my ride soon :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Here's one last log for good measure after the DV fix. Everything seems okay for the tempurature today. Somewhere around 82° and 47% humidity.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

So I went to dyno yesterday and the dude shut it down after 2 runs, and never revved passed 6.5k. He said he felt the car was too lean fluctuating between 12.3-12.6. It was the Dynojet on LI at Tach Motor Works. The dyno was run by their tuner (goes by Erkel) who's known for his genius in tuning Subarus and Evos in the area. He also mentioned that he thinks something is wrong because he feels the car is not making enough power for the size turbo I have even at low boost. 

Here's the chart...


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

how much boost? 314hp on low boost isn't bad... as long as your low boost is under 11lbs (generic measure of 10hp per 1lbs of boost, starting with 200hp engine).


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

running off of a .5bar spring so ~7.5psi, and the highest was 318.62whp and 284.99wtq STD 1.03 correction.

It's the air fuel I'm worried about most, he told me that it's way too lean @ 12.3-12.6afr

I mean he is an Evo/STI tuner primarily, So I don't know if they're cars are too finicky and blow up at that kind of AFR and that's he's freaking out about my ratios. He said he *would not* run the car again at those ratios :screwy: he doesn't want it to blow on the dyno and be responsible..


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## One Gray GLI (Apr 2, 2007)

bleh, my car is at around 12.0-12.2 at WOT in 4th. granted that's more boost and more power, but I remember asking jeff once about where he tunes AFR's at and he said around that.

to compare, most evos are closer to 11.5 AFR ideally, usually less..and subarus are usually even "richer" since the fuel is used to cool the pistons (semi-closed deck).


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

One Gray GLI said:


> bleh, my car is at around 12.0-12.2 at WOT in 4th. granted that's more boost and more power, but I remember asking jeff once about where he tunes AFR's at and he said around that.
> 
> to compare, most evos are closer to 11.5 AFR ideally, usually less..and subarus are usually even "richer" since the fuel is used to cool the pistons (semi-closed deck).


Yeah I kind of figured the AFR wasn't tuned wrong...I mean it's been like that since the get-go so I wanted to tell him that it was supposed to be at 12.3 but he wasn't having it. He was *insisting* that it's going to blow up if I run it like that :banghead: 

Now I just really want to lower compression, add studs + fuel pump, and add boost...


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## One Gray GLI (Apr 2, 2007)

Lieutenant Dan said:


> Yeah I kind of figured the AFR wasn't tuned wrong...I mean it's been like that since the get-go so I wanted to tell him that it was supposed to be at 12.3 but he wasn't having it. He was *insisting* that it's going to blow up if I run it like that :banghead:
> 
> Now I just really want to lower compression, add studs + fuel pump, and add boost...


if you think about it..how many pulls have you done with the car? I doubt much has changed, and it hasnt blown up yet. fun way of looking at it


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

One Gray GLI said:


> if you think about it..how many pulls have you done with the car? I doubt much has changed, and it hasnt blown up yet. fun way of looking at it


Yeah true, though something _is_ still wrong with the car and whatever it is might be causing me some power.

It still wants to stall if you let off the throttle after any sort of load. I have to dance on the accelerator to keep the car running if I for example am accelerating decently and suddenly have to clutch in. Even without load though, if I free rev it decently high and just let it drop on it's own it'll go passed the idle point, and either stall, or baaarely stay running sputtering a bunch before returning to idle.

And this is all with a recirculated DV :sly:

The dude was trying to put the car on the dyno like feathering the clutch with throttle and when he finally got it on and just clutched in it stalled...and then it *would not start*. It just loaded up and stopped running after he finally clutched in. It would just crank and crank and crank. It eventually started after like playing with the throttle (as if it's got a carburetor) but the revs hung around 100rpm for a good 15seconds before the car like found its way up to an idle. :screwy:

Embarrassing. I don't understand it.


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

I've replaced MAF elements before to fix problems like that. Random stalling and bucking at part throttle. Dynos great, runs great most of the time but there are moments when you clutch it and it dies and/or it just decides to stal at a light. I also raised the idle about 50 rpms and never had a problem since.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

KubotaPowered said:


> I've replaced MAF elements before to fix problems like that. Random stalling and bucking at part throttle. Dynos great, runs great most of the time but there are moments when you clutch it and it dies and/or it just decides to stal at a light. I also raised the idle about 50 rpms and never had a problem since.


I've tried raising the idle with unisettings/lemmiwinks but when I touch any of the idle parameters, even slightly, it then starts up and revs to 2k and holds it there. :screwy: I then just shut the car off and re-load the original save file that I had made before modifying and everything's back to normal.

I also replaced the MAF once like a year ago with a new aftermarket one, and it never fixed a thing so we returned it and went back to the original one. I know aftermarket one's are hit/miss but I didn't want to just buy a new OEM and then it not be the problem and just be stuck with it. Maybe i'll just bite the bullet on a new OEM and if it's still not the problem iIll just hold on to it for when it does fail.


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

Lieutenant Dan said:


> I've tried raising the idle with unisettings/lemmiwinks but when I touch any of the idle parameters, even slightly, it then starts up and revs to 2k and holds it there. :screwy: I then just shut the car off and re-load the original save file that I had made before modifying and everything's back to normal.
> 
> I also replaced the MAF once like a year ago with a new aftermarket one, and it never fixed a thing so we returned it and went back to the original one. I know aftermarket one's are hit/miss but I didn't want to just buy a new OEM and then it not be the problem and just be stuck with it. Maybe i'll just bite the bullet on a new OEM and if it's still not the problem iIll just hold on to it for when it does fail.


Have you tried raising the idle with vagcom? Login to the ECU, then adaptation, go to channel one and the idle increases in increments of 10 rpms per each increase in the value, max of 132.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

KubotaPowered said:


> Have you tried raising the idle with vagcom? Login to the ECU, then adaptation, go to channel one and the idle increases in increments of 10 rpms per each increase in the value, max of 132.


No I haven't; I completely forgot I could do it in vagcom. I'll give that a whirl tomorrow and see if i get any positive results. :thumbup: Thanks:beer:


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Welp...it's pulling a bunch of timing again suddenly, from one day to another. It was semi-perfect for the last week or so as far as knock, and even dyno'd with almost none being registered, but now if i barely try to open it up I instantly see CF's of almost 15, so I shut down  

I discovered it because the yesterday I stomped on it on an on-ramp and the car made full boost but had absolutely no power, so I stopped. Knowing something was wrong timing-wise, I logged and got crazy CFs again on any attempt at big throttle.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Try a different gas station. :thumbup:


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

DieGTi said:


> Try a different gas station. :thumbup:


 I filled at a hess that's down the block from the dyno I was at, and that was friday. It ran fine for the whole weekend and then knock randomly started yesterday, so I don't think it's the gas..


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

Dude these cars can be weird. I know we have different tuning but sometime my car will hunt for idle jump around from ~1000-1200 or so, but I can turn the car off and immediately back on and it will sit dead steady at 600 where it should, so it's not a 'hardware' issue (like a vac leak). I wonder if these ECU's just screw up stuff sometimes.


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## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

If your fuel filter ends up being the cause of the bosch 044 being quiet and what not, that means your air/fuel ratio should richen up a bit more, that exactly what happened to my car last year. Also could explain some of the weird things you've been experiencing, guess we'll find out soon:thumbup:


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

marat_g60 said:


> If your fuel filter ends up being the cause of the bosch 044 being quiet and what not, that means your air/fuel ratio should richen up a bit more, that exactly what happened to my car last year. Also could explain some of the weird things you've been experiencing, guess we'll find out soon:thumbup:


 Wow, threadjack  


My car has done the weird idle crap ever since it's been boosted so I doubt it's related  THX tho :thumbup: 

BTW I have an innovate AF gig and its BROKEN, so I can't actually see my A/F's which pisses me off.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

PhReE said:


> Dude these cars can be weird. I know we have different tuning but sometime my car will hunt for idle jump around from ~1000-1200 or so, but I can turn the car off and immediately back on and it will sit dead steady at 600 where it should, so it's not a 'hardware' issue (like a vac leak). I wonder if these ECU's just screw up stuff sometimes.


 yeah but it's obvious with my car that something is just wrong...it stalls like an unrecirculated car after it loads up, and then won't start again unless i play with the throttle. This is whenever I clutch in from higher revs, just free rev the car, or even when we were trying to get the car on the dyno rollers. :banghead: I'm thinking at this point it may be the throttle body that's bad and it's just not able to control idle air properly. 

Here's what it does on startup though, warm or cold: 





 
...but that's not even the big issue right now. What's really messed up is how the car suddenly pulls so much timing from one day to the next, and has no power. Sunday it was fine, but yesterday I go to drive it has no power at full boost.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

What are you doing with the ESP/ASR crap? anything? Always off I hope.


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

That vid looks like its fine.. was it supposed to be? Thats ~how my car starts too. 

If I free rev my car past like 5k it WILL stall. But I can just start it back up, no prob. 

Have you logged TB angles? Do the 'seem' ok?


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

DieGTi said:


> What are you doing with the ESP/ASR crap? anything? Always off I hope.


 My 'tune' seems to have VERY mild ESP settings as it hardly ever kicks in even when I am smoking 1st-3rd gear.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

PhReE said:


> That vid looks like its fine.. was it supposed to be? Thats ~how my car starts too.
> 
> If I free rev my car past like 5k it WILL stall. But I can just start it back up, no prob.
> 
> Have you logged TB angles? Do the 'seem' ok?


 Nah I haven't, because I don't think I can see them with VCDS-lite. However, I don't know how this is supposed to be normal even if both of ours do it. It's actually obnoxious and the other 24v turbos in the area that i know don't do this at startup, and 2 of them are C2 kits and the other 1 is running UM software which is essentially the same thing. I'm running the same software as them, yet mine does this so it leads me to believe it's not software related. 



DieGTi said:


> What are you doing with the ESP/ASR crap? anything? Always off I hope.


 Always off, but doesn't matter because it pulls so much timing that it doesn't have enough power to spin the wheels :laugh:


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

Lieutenant Dan said:


> Nah I haven't, because I don't think I can see them with VCDS-lite. However, I don't know how this is supposed to be normal even if both of ours do it. It's actually obnoxious and the other 24v turbos in the area that i know don't do this at startup, and 2 of them are C2 kits and the other 1 is running UM software which is essentially the same thing. I'm running the same software as them, yet mine does this so it leads me to believe it's not software related.
> 
> 
> 
> Always off, but doesn't matter because it pulls so much timing that it doesn't have enough power to spin the wheels :laugh:


 TBQH my car runs better COLD than WARM. It really only exhibits idle abnormalites (VERY) randomly when hot. However ALWAYS 'fixes' itself if I start/stop.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Yeah I feel the same thing at times about a million things with the car. My car has an aluminum flywheel but it doesn't seem like it when it's warmed up; it's almost like stock. Cold however If i barely blip the throttle it revs like a sport bike and doesn't really load up or stall... 

I'm changing the fuel filter tomorrow in case it's clogged for whatever reason...it's only 7 bucks my cost so it's worth doing it just in case. I just need to sort this timing pull crap asap as well as finally getting to the bottom of these weird start up and stalling issues asap. Knock CFs of 12-15 across all 6 is not cool.


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## One Gray GLI (Apr 2, 2007)

Dan, if you're talking about the car revving to 2k for a second or two, mine does it too. Mine also feels like it's gonna die if I blip the throttle sometimes, almost like it falls on its face.. but I believe I have a vacumn leak pre-throttle body since I used black RTV silicone instead of the o-ring for the c2 SRI since the o-ring broke.

But besides that? Car sits perfectly in vacumn, and still pulls good, sooo maybe it could be throttle body related.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Changed fuel filter and MAF, and even "reset" the ECU by undoing the battery for a while and it pulls timing like crazy. 

12-15CF and going ATDC on any boost. 

I'm lost and Jeff hasn't returned any of my follow-up PMs


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

What plugs/gap? 

Got an oscilloscope/know how to use it? I would try to hook the knock sensor up to it and have a look...


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

PhReE said:


> What plugs/gap?
> 
> Got an oscilloscope/know how to use it? I would try to hook the knock sensor up to it and have a look...


 Plugs are brand new BRK7e's @ .24. It was one of the first things i did when I changed all 6 coil packs earlier in the thread. 

I do have an oscilloscope on the snap-on verus scanner at the shop, so i'll get into that if i have to. 

Fuel pressure testing it tomorrow as well... 

I've realized something specific to when/how I get it to knock as well most of the time. It will go full retard and show crazy knocks if I shift from any gear to the next and just put my foot flat to the floor instantly, or even if I just put my foot down fast/hard in any gear higher than 2nd. 

However if I do roll on where I give it partial throttle for like 3 seconds letting the vac needle go to 0 and holding, and then start giving it more throttle progressively to WOT it will just pull and pull with no knock to redline.


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

Sounds more and more like something to do with the knock sensors. Not sure if they are bad or just tuned too aggressive. My car if I sit in 3rd at ~4k rpm and then floor it it will pull timing like crazy where as if I simply accel thru 3rd/4th it will pull great. 

If you can log the oscilloscope readings from a knock sensor and then get another car to compare too, and if my oscilloscope hadn't been stolen a few years ago... Well never mind that but you see what I mean. Maybe we should just swap em out?


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Fuel pressure is normal. 2.5bar under vac at idle and 3 with vacuum line undone from regulator. At full boost it's right over 3.5bar and i'm running .5 bar of boost. 

I'm starting to just think this car just can't take 7psi of boost, even intercooled, on stock compression without causing knock and retarding timing alot... 

Fuel pressure = good 
Plugs = new, and still good 
coils = brand new 
fuel filter = changed 
MAF = changed 


I mean yeah a knock sensor could be bad or it could be seeing false knock but my father, who's been doing this for 30 years, doesn't understand why. He keeps telling me he can probably count on 2 hands the amount of 'bad' knock sensors he's ever seen. Are these things actually notorious for not working properly on these cars or something?


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

Only bad knock sensor I have ever seen on a VR6 was because the wire was snagged when removing the engine. I have never seen one fail from use. You might just look to make sure the wiring is intact and they are tight against the block because this is something that a loose knock sensor can cause however, that is unlikely but worth a check.


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## dckeener (Jan 10, 2005)

Looks like its time for a head spacer.


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

Lieutenant Dan said:


> Fuel pressure is normal. 2.5bar under vac at idle and 3 with vacuum line undone from regulator. At full boost it's right over 3.5bar and i'm running .5 bar of boost.
> 
> I'm starting to just think this car just can't take 7psi of boost, even intercooled, on stock compression without causing knock and retarding timing alot...
> 
> ...


 Try pulling 3,4 degree of timing with lemmiwinks. It would see if you are going in the right direction.


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

maybe best get your car to a pro and have then listen for knock on the dyno 
your knock sensors maybe picking up noise from some were and thinking its knock maybe this could help if that is the problem http://www.bildon.com/catalog/DetailsList.cfm?ID=133.375


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## magner (Jul 26, 2009)

i no nothing about your tune but guessing here looking at your logs 3000rpm your load is at 100 percent from there onwards and timing looks like it becomes a constant set to 12 degree subject to what ever boost is given logs look like cylinder 2 is pulling timing and knock is at that side of the engine id be tempted to swap injector 1 2and 3 with injector 4 5 and 6 and plugs too and log again to rule out any injector flow fault or plug problem on that side causing knock on that side of the engine


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Tune is 630cc C2 by Jeff Atwood 

I'd love to swap injectors and whatnot, but doing that involves taking the entire front end of the car apart to remove the intake manifold, and it's my daily. At that point I might as well tear it down and put in a headspacer since i'm only bolts away with the intake manifold off from getting the head off as well. 

The timing pull now is constant, all cylinders pull equally basically within a few degrees, but it's high. Usually about 10-15CFs, so I never get a clean log because I don't want to push it. 

Today I tried to back out 4 degrees with Unisettings, even drove it for a while to makes sure, which didn't do anything...still pulls timing and no power 
Then I went and put 100octane in the car since the light was on...still pulls timing and no power. 

So higher octane fuel is not making it any better; not even the slightest bit.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Knock sensors are alright...

I just don't get this anymore :banghead:


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## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

would gapping the plugs tighter possibly help? I had my bkr's gapped to .024 like you and was experiencing major problems above 10psi. I now gap em to ~.021-.022 very tight gap and has no issues yet with 30+psi


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

HMM i guess I could move the gap down .003 from .024 to .021 and see if it makes any different.

Also quick question, are siemens 630cc injectors supposed to be running on the 3bar or 4 bar fuel pressure regulator?

I'm on the stock 3bar

When I did the setup i never got any notice of needing it from c2, however for example Unitronic's siemens 630cc file requires a 4 bar...

Should I invest in one?


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

My car also seems to be very sensitive to the gap and I have had to run pretty much as small of a gap as my little $.10 gap measuring thing can go, which is about ".020 - ".022


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## One Gray GLI (Apr 2, 2007)

4bar won't make much of a difference. 11% more, to quote jeff from a different thread. it's not that your car is running out of fuel whatsoever. if anything it'll just run richer under the curve also.

i'm on the stock 3bar as well. ran the 3bar on the uni 630cc file also. the R32 files are [email protected], but it's 4bar, so it's actually about, if not more than 630cc.

I don't really think the injectors are the problem. did you do a boost leak test by any chance? my car has that same problem with the throttle where sometimes I rev it and it feels like it doesn't wanna go. maybe there's a leak @ the intake manifold?


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Yea, i figured since with a pressure check everything was up to par anyway...just wanted to ask.

I'm not just going after that startup issue and stalling right now, as much as trying to figure out why intermittently it's pulling so much timing causing no power, even on 100 octane.

The driveability stuff I couldn't care less about until I can get my car running right under boost.

That's secondary.

Though I did a smoke test with the Evap machine we have that's used to find vac leaks etc and found it pouring out of my shifter rod linkage...had a leak of 3 liters/minute according to the machine. I can't imagine what that's like on boost. I think i'm going to delete it and block it off. I don't need it anyway 

Tomorrow i'm going to leak test with some pressure as well once I fix that to find any smaller leaks, but this one required almost no pressure to find.


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## One Gray GLI (Apr 2, 2007)

shifter rod for the changeover valve inside the manifold? i'm pretty sure that the car will make less power without it on stock intake mani.  it helps with the flow, I believe.

might sound REALLY stupid/silly..but has the coolant temp sensor ever been changed? these cars do some crazy stuff when they go. lol


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## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

That leak sounds pretty bad


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

One Gray GLI said:


> shifter rod for the changeover valve inside the manifold? i'm pretty sure that the car will make less power without it on stock intake mani.  it helps with the flow, I believe.
> 
> might sound REALLY stupid/silly..but has the coolant temp sensor ever been changed? these cars do some crazy stuff when they go. lol


Yep I got a code for it years ago when the car was NA and I changed it to the revised one.

I read a bit about it and it seems it'll only effect a bit of low end but honestly, If i feel no difference deleting it I'm going to just keep it off. I changed the bushings on it right when I painted it, and replaced all the seals only a year ago and it already leaks:facepalm:


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## Soundwave_vr6 (Oct 1, 2007)

*FV-QR*

been running without the shift rod since ive been turbo'd lil less down low.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Good to know, I just ordered another passenger side manifold rod cap, so I can use it on the driver side to cap it off once I remove everything. After I fix that, I'll keep looking for any other leaks with a bigger pressure check. The car feels a bit smoother after I cleaned up some of the PCV line, smoke was coming out of one of the joints i made which means the car was drawing in unmetered air.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

Hmm...is a Tial 38mm supposed to hold vacuum if applied with a pump? Mine leaks down instantly...torn diaphragm? I'm not running a MBC/EBC so the top vent is open, but i feel like it still shouldn't leak because the vacuum is being applied to the bottom port which is under the diaphragm which should seal.


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## DannyLo (Aug 2, 2006)

*Problem found and solved* :banghead: 

It was the SAME problem as the first one: A leaking BOV/DV!

When I went to dyno, the genius operator didn't like my vacuum/boost line setup and decided to wire-tie every single line at the connections (which i hadn't because there were no leaks at any of them)

This all happened while I was in the office talking to a buddy while they were strapping it up, so I never saw it. :facepalm:

Here's where he created the same problem that I had just fixed by putting a Bosch DV in the car. *He wire-tied the line to the DV before the nipple*. So It basically was closed on itself. Same problem from the start, alll over again!

So essentially, the car would start to build pressure, then because of that it would push open the DV. That air would then go right back through the turbo again, which I'm guessing explains why the car suddenly built boost sometimes at partial throttle. Probably explains the timing knock retard too because it hasn't come back at those insane levels I was seeing since.

If it weren't for me wanting to boost check the car for leaks again to rule out potential problems, I would've never realized such a minute detail.:facepalm:

Cut all the wire-ties he put on my car off, and took a drive. All normal  

All aside, I did find a leak at the Intake manifold shifter rod, but I fixed it. (Deleted it with a blanking plate) Now the car holds up to 20psi, and the infamous plastic manifold didn't even pop. 

Sigh.... here's a timeline

So 3 problems over the course of this thread, all essentially the same one in different "disguise" :banghead:

1. Problem: (Actual: Collapsed DV line) At the time, assumed bad DV :facepalm:
My Solution: New DV!

2. Problem: New DV, but it doesn't hold. WTF is going on...ok lets try another bosch valve.
Solution: While changing back to the new bosch valve (intended solution), saw the line's "cloth" skin was frayed and causing it to collapse, so I changed it (actual solution to original problem)

At this point the car was perfect again, so I head to the dyno 

3. Problem: Next day after dyno and each day after I noticed the same old problem was back  Started to think something was wrong with the electronics somewhere.
Solution: Boost leak check car and see wire-tie. Snip off the wire-tie that the dyno operator decided to ghetto up my engine bay with.

Thanks to everyone who has listened to my BS, and helped me out with ideas.
If you're at Waterfest or H2Oi, let's meet up for a beer :beer:

Cheers
-Dan


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Yeash.


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## One Gray GLI (Apr 2, 2007)

well, thats always good news. :beer:


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## KubotaPowered (Jan 27, 2005)

Good work, glad it is back up and running strong!


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