# Car won't unlock, recognize key, release key from ignition, or start (wet controllers?)



## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

Hi there.

Sorry that this is going to be my first post, only became a Phaeton owner (well my dad did) two days ago.

Having some serious problems with the car, all started at once. Ill tell you exactly what happened.

Drove from cumbria to liverpool in a normal (wet) drive with no issues.

Parked up and locked the car.
Came back out to get things out of the car about 5 mins later, unlocked and locked as normal.
About 5 mins more later came out to get things from the boot, unlocked the boot only retrieved them, and locked the car.

About half an hour later, came to the car to go the the cinema. this is where things started to go wrong.

Looking into the car the alarm side lights were flashing rapidly, the lights that show amount of ventilation on vents were all "pulsing" (going from 0 - full one after the other), and the dash display was turned on. Also there was a sound coming from the engine bay (the kind of short grindy noise you get when you first turn on (but not start) most cars), which was happeneing, then stopping, the repeating over and over, and also the sound of the locking in the doors actuating. Then I pressed unlock on the key, no response at all. Tried boot and lock, again no response.

Went to unlock manually, but the car re locked the door before I even pulled the handle. Eventually got in by holding the key unlocked when opening the door.

Then the car locked me in as soon as the door closed (the unlock button on the door was not working, tho the lock one was).

managed to get out by lowering the window and unlocking from outside in the same way as before.

After leaving the door open sat back down and put the key in. It was completely ignored and even turning it caused nothing to happen. At first it would not release the key, but after much turning and taking the car in and out of Park, I got it back.

(All the time in the car the lights still pulsing, the same noise ETC)

Tried to open the boot from the switch in the car, no response. Went and opened it manually with the key.

Disconnected the battery (both of them after disconnecting the first one failed).

After this the lights ETC were no longer flashing and the car responded to the remote.

After getting in the car it still ignored the key in the steering column, apart from it would not let me remove it, telling me to put the level in the P position.

(At this point tried in and out of gear etc to get it started and a various other things but no luck)

Eventually disconnected the main battery but left the started one in alone (hoping it would use it as the backup to start with as I read on here).

This worked. The car started up, but with the levelling system and ESP offline, however there was also a key symbol in yellow on the top of the display.

Then suddenly after about 20 seconds the car just turned off.

Reconnected both batteries etc and still no luck.

Checked all the fuses and all are fine, haven't checked the relays as I don't have the equipment or spares.

I reconnected the other battery and was back the same as before. Again after many attempts of things and using removal of the gearbox selector fuse from the steering wheel (found this would allow me to take my key out, obviously putting it back in afterwards), moved on to something else.

I used the backup to make the car start as before, but before it had a chance to stop (for whatever reason it did before, I reconnected the second battery. This time the car stayed running, but I could not take it out of Park, and still lost the suspension and ESP, but also this time there was the key again, but it said "System fault Workshop". Shortly after that and playing with the gearbox the screen went red, displaying the key symbol, and said something about a lock, quickly the text dissapeared and I wasn't able to get the message to come back up. 

Checked all the fuses several times (every single one in the boot and steering column) since and no problems there at all.

Tried to replicate this last step to see if I could get it out of park so i could drive it to a dealer but no luck.

Eventually gave up and locked the car with the remote which worked since the initial removal of the battery.

Came back for another quick poke 30 mins later and its ignoring the remote again.....




Since its ignoring (well practically, the centre console turns on when you put the key in and there are noticeable sounds when turning the key from inside the car) the key maybe it thinks something is wrong with the chamber in the steering column?

If this was the case is there any way to reset the error without the VW diagnostic computer?


Otherwise, anyone have any idea what the cars doing or how to fix it?

Thanks

Piers


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## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

Also I just went out to check something.

As I said the side red alarm indicators are flashing quite rapidly (every second I think), and it isn't responding to the remote, however I just noticed that if I press lock on the remote, for a second the red alarm lights flash faster, so it is receiving the remote signals.


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

*Check for water in driver's footwell under fllor mat.*

It appears the kessy module may be the culprit. It may be due to water ingress from the center plenum being clogged with debris and filling with rain water. I believe you may find the driver's footwell is wet under the driver's floor mat. This is the dreaded Kessy under water situation. Look for water in footwells/ water ingress post in the FAQ section of this Phaeton forum. Your first step should be to pull the floor pan drain plug located under the driver's seat. Water ,if present will drain out. Be prepared to have the car flat bedded to the dealer as you will not be able to remove your key if MY 05 or MY 06. You will not be able to shift it out of park either. Let the tow driver know this so he will be prepared to bring "sleds" for all 4 wheels. These will be used under each wheel so your car can be dragged up the bed of the tow vehicle. Good Luck. Also, so your prepared, the starter may be fried resulting in the VW dealer advising the v8 motor be pulled to replace the starter at nearly 3,000.00 US. Whether you decide to have that done at the dealership, you will still need the dealer to program your new kessey module and adapt it to your keys. Be sure to bring ALL keys so that they are programmed at the same time. Any key not present at the time of programing will no longer be recognized. Good Luck.


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

hers is the link http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2993188


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## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

Thanks ken.

I had a quick check under both the drivers side and passenger side mats and there is no sign of moisture at all.

Being a UK car I assume some of the controls are on the "wrong" side so i checked both to make sure.

I'll check for debris etc tomorrow, its going to be taken to a dealer to be looked at tomorrow too.

With regard to the key, its easy enough to get out by pulling the fuse for the gear select and I'm hoping the starter will be ok, as I had it working when i got the car started twice.

Also the message in red with the key symbol that is coming up is STOP! Ignition lock!

As soon as I unlock the car manually with the key that centre computer turns on and dash lights up with that, before i even put the key in =/

Hopefully the dealer wont be too incompetent as I happen to know they have only ever sold a single phaeton after having the original in the showroom for 3 years and as far as I know they may never have serviced one before at all (in Cumbria nobody buys these kinds of cars apparently).


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## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

With regards to the drain plug, is that under the drivers seat when looking from under the car or literally under the seat?

If that's the case can I get to it from moving the seat to one of its farthest positions or do I need to remove the carpet?

I had a look through the first page of the thread you linked and will take a look at the drainage when its daylight but I didn't see anything about that.

EDIT: Found the edit button  thanks.


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

The floor plug is located from below the vehicle. Hopefully there is there is no water found. If you left click on my name you can read my post where I describe the symptoms I experienced with my Kessy issues.
Also there is an edit icon located at the top right hand side of your post- it is that of a pencil on paper.


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

It is also possible the larger aux battery may need to be replaced. Many electrical gremlins have been corrected once that battery is fully charged/replaced.


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## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

Okay, crawled under the car and used a bread knife to unseal the plugs.

On the drivers side (the right in the uk) there was nothing, but on the passenger side (left) quite a lot of water slowly streamed out =/

The only things that seem to really be "on" are the lights on the gearbox selector and a pretty quiet fan under the bonnet, however still cant unlock via remote or get anything to happen when turning the key in the car.

What controllers are under the UK passenger side seat?

EDIT: I've gone back and disconnected the aux battery after reading the horror stories hopefully to prevent any burnouts, but i stupidly closed the boot after and then proceeded to put my key in the ignition when the car still had power from the backup battery for some reason. now there's no power I cant get the key out and cant get in the boot to power the car so I can release the key. So we now have an unlocked car with the key in the ignition in liverpool...

I asssume it can just be connected up via the jump start connectors under the bonnet in the morning to release the key anyway so it should be ok, not like it can be driven away even if anyone does try to steal it....


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

I doubt anyone could steal it with the kind of problems you describe.

If you are lucky enough, you could have a version where there is a small pinhole on the ring around the key.

If so, poke a ballpen tip into the hole and twist the key out of the ignition.

Then, with your key (or a spare if you didn't manage to get it out), it is possible to open the boot to disconnect both batteries (I think it should be wiser for you to disconnect them looking at the electrical problems you describe). If you look at the bottom of the VW emblem on the boot, you will find a small indent in between the two legs of the W. You can slide it away with the tip of your key to unveil a manual lock. You will then be able to open your boot using the key, as you would with a normal car.

Finally, connecting a battery on the jump start connectors under the bonnet won't get you anywhere. These are connected to the right battery, i.e. the starter battery.

You have two batteries in the Phaeton: the LHS is for electronic systems, and the RHS is exclusively used to crank the engine, although you can link both batteries together thanks to a relay by twisting the key to the left when it is in the ignition.

Anyway, I would strongly advise you to get your key back, get to the boot, unplug the batteries and complain to the guy who sold you the car...

The guy from the tow truck may want to unlock the wheels. These guys are pretty nifty and have a lot of experience with these kind of situations and know how to do it. However, on the Phaeton, you should be very careful when getting access to the solenoid that locks the transmission, under the gear shift, as it is very possible to crack the wood panels, which would then be near impossible to replace as they are veneered with real wood, and no two trees have the same colour shade. So if you get a replacement panel, it will most certainly be of a different colour...

So the guy should be very careful and delicate when taking the panels off.

If the guy insists in doing it, you can show him the photos of this thread http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...an-Phaeton&p=17058040&viewfull=1#post17058040 to help him disassemble the console to get to the solenoid.

He should also be careful that on Phaetons, the gear selector PCB is very fragile and breaks easily.

I hope this will get sorted out easily...

P.


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## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

Okay update.

its morning now and I've managed to get the key out as described above (thanks)

And ive gotten the car started off the backup and reattached the aux battery, now its running and drivable.

I have thee ESP off light and the key symbol in the dash but i can change gear and everything is working otherwise, if i turn it off it will be "dead" again tho, gunna drive it to our dealer I think.

EDIT: Just pressed teh ESP button and now its working too...


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

Well done !

Let's hope your dealer will be up to it !

P.


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## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

Driven it home as its a Sunday, will try the same thing tomorrow to drive it to the dealer.

Had the STOP! Ignition lock! red warning the whole way but every other system worked perfectly.

When we got home i turned off the car and turned it back on, and miraculously there were no errors at all (and it let me turn it on )

Came back to it literally 2 mins later as the remote locking want responding to try the other key and its back to saying STOP! ignition lock even without the key in the car 

Also this time if i put the key in and try turning it i saw IMMOBILIZER ACTIVATED! couple of times in between the STOP! Ignition lock.

Will see what the dealer says tomorrow but hopefully after the brief period of everything working this means once everythings dried out nothing will need replacing


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

I think you should have parked it in front of the dealer's...

Let's hope it will start again tomorrow...

P.


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## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

Okay so the technician has had the carpet up and found there was no water there at all (literally bone dry, dryer than it would have been if water had simply been drained), and after reading diagnostics they replaced the electronic part of the ignition.

This apparently has fixed the faults with the ignition according the the scan, but the car sometimes still ignores the key and sometimes doesn't.

They have said they are getting errors from J518 and suggest replacing this ECU, as they are now sure it is either this ECU (the one under the glovebox in right hand drive cars) or the electronics in the steering column itself.

I think we're going to go ahead and get them to replace the ECU, but i wanted to get some input form here if anyone had any ideas?

Thanks

Piers


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

Piers1989 said:


> Okay, crawled under the car and used a bread knife to unseal the plugs.
> 
> On the drivers side (the right in the uk) there was nothing, but on the passenger side (left) quite a lot of water slowly streamed out =/
> 
> I believe the Kessy module is located in the same footwell whether NAR(North American Region )or ROW (Rest of World). That is the left front footwell. This is where you found "a lot of water". When you removed the floor pan plug, directly over the hole , sits the Kessy. The black plastic covering the hole is literally the bottom of the Kessy module. It's possible it dried out and is working HOWEVER when I opened my Kessy unit (unit slides out), there was evidence of water inside. If it's working, perhaps allowing the printed circuit board and seperate housing to dry in the sun will aid in it's continued operation. Myself and another member placed our new modules in a plastic (I used a ziplock with sealant around cable) and installed using existing location. I also removed my Orange plenum drain as recommended by a a party very familiar with Phaetons, Bentley Continentals and Audi A8's. While water continues to run into the plenum, as it should, it no longer accumulates in great quantities as it did. I do not have water ingress issues at this time however, during heavy downpours, I try to cover the front windshield and across the gap to the hood or bonnet with 6 mil plastic that drapes down the side of the car thereby eliminating water into the plenum. Whether I should have to do this ritual or even worry about this on such an exceptional automobile is another story.


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

Yes, the J518 is the Kessy module. That is the Brain. It communicates and authenticates the key with the ignition lock cylinder and the doors, alarms, trunk, engine,transmission and anti theft system. Since the J518 is screwy(because of water ingress), the other modules receive false and erroneous signals. 
Just think, all these items may be replaced because a "fault " is shown when there is nothing wrong with any of them except the J518. I was told by someone to just replace the J518 Kessy and take it from there. Shame the dealers have to learn from it's customer's what is actually defective and what to replace first. :banghead:
For the benefit of anyone reading this post that has a key symbol come up in red or immobilizer messages on the MFD, pull the floor pan drain plug from under the left front passenger footwell. If there is water present ,let it drain. apply parking brake and leave car in neutral. This is done so that it will roll when the tow truck pulls it up onto the flat bed. Also remove the key while and if you still can. A defective Kessy unit will lock the key in the ignition and lock the transmission shifter in Park. Of great importance is to keep an eye on your car after you have symptoms of a wet Kessy (J518). The reason is the car can tell itself to continously attempt to start. While the right side starting battery is used, a one time,momentary electrical signal is used to start the car however when the left side battery is used (defective kessy randomly chooses) there is no timed signal to left Aux battery and it is equivalant to turning and holding a key in the start position after it has already started. This causes the starter to become extremely hot as it is using almost all of the amps of the battery. This caused smoke to emit from my engine bay. Luckily, I had come out to find it whirring away with smoke. If you suspect your car is having Kessy problems, park it outside the garage. Better still is disconnect both batteries. Better safe than sorry. At least your neighbors won't be awakened by the car's alarm.


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## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

kend414 said:


> Yes, the J518 is the Kessy module. That is the Brain. It communicates and authenticates the key with the ignition lock cylinder and the doors, alarms, trunk, engine,transmission and anti theft system. Since the J518 is screwy(because of water ingress), the other modules receive false and erroneous signals.
> Just think, all these items may be replaced because a "fault " is shown when there is nothing wrong with any of them except the J518. I was told by someone to just replace the J518 Kessy and take it from there. Shame the dealers have to learn from it's customer's what is actually defective and what to replace first. :banghead:
> For the benefit of anyone reading this post that has a key symbol come up in red or immobilizer messages on the MFD, pull the floor pan drain plug from under the left front passenger footwell. If there is water present ,let it drain. apply parking brake and leave car in neutral. This is done so that it will roll when the tow truck pulls it up onto the flat bed. Also remove the key while and if you still can. A defective Kessy unit will lock the key in the ignition and lock the transmission shifter in Park. Of great importance is to keep an eye on your car after you have symptoms of a wet Kessy (J518). The reason is the car can tell itself to continously attempt to start. While the right side starting battery is used, a one time,momentary electrical signal is used to start the car however when the left side battery is used (defective kessy randomly chooses) there is no timed signal to left Aux battery and it is equivalant to turning and holding a key in the start position after it has already started. This causes the starter to become extremely hot as it is using almost all of the amps of the battery. This caused smoke to emit from my engine bay. Luckily, I had come out to find it whirring away with smoke. If you suspect your car is having Kessy problems, park it outside the garage. Better still is disconnect both batteries. Better safe than sorry. At least your neighbors won't be awakened by the car's alarm.


Ok, well we instructed them to remove it and have a closer inspection of it before ordering a new one to check it wasn't wet or any other obvious causes of failure.

I was thinking the floor plug I removed may have been for a bit under the floor as it was on the kind of lower plane (if you look at the car from underneath some plugs are a couple of inches higher than others) the one i removed was from one of the lower ruts, but was under the passenger footwell.

I don't know if my dad has heard back from them yet about it but he specifically asked them to check the unit once removing it before ordering a replacement.


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

Hello again. Were you able to get things sorted at the dealer? I think it important that we , as Phaeton owners, document the various symptoms and systems and their respective components that are affected by water ingress and share with one another our experiances so that we may take corrective measures and prevent costly, unneeded repairs.


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## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

kend414 said:


> Hello again. Were you able to get things sorted at the dealer? I think it important that we , as Phaeton owners, document the various symptoms and systems and their respective components that are affected by water ingress and share with one another our experiances so that we may take corrective measures and prevent costly, unneeded repairs.


Its still in the process of being sorted.

Rather than buy a replacement kessey theyre sending it off for diagnostics to confirm that is the issue first to save the £350 for a new one if its not needed.


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

Piers1989 said:


> Its still in the process of being sorted.
> 
> Rather than buy a replacement kessey theyre sending it off for diagnostics to confirm that is the issue first to save the £350 for a new one if its not needed.


That's interesting and could save as you've suggested . Would you know who will perform the diagnostic testing of the J518 Kessy Module? I do know that it is manufactured by Siemens VDO as that is printed on the circuit board.


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## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

kend414 said:


> That's interesting and could save as you've suggested . Would you know who will perform the diagnostic testing of the J518 Kessy Module? I do know that it is manufactured by Siemens VDO as that is printed on the circuit board.


I'm not sure to be honest, if we get a report back after I'll let you know


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## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

Okay well the garage has been useless and basically done nothing, not even taken the kessy module out yet, and the diagnostic people have said they cant diagnose it as its too uncommon.

Dependant on what happens with the car in the future we may be needing a new kessy. If this is the case does anyone know where one can be purchased?

Thanks


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

*kessey-where to buy*

You can only purchase a Kessy unit from VW. It MUST be ordered with the vehicle's VIN number. It MUST also be programmed at the VW dealership. There is no getting around that fact. Vw is keeping records to where the units are being shipped to and is reffered to as a "controlled " part. All keys to the vehicle must be present at time of programming the Kessy unit. Not hard to install but has to be programmed by dealer using VW's intranet.


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## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

kend414 said:


> You can only purchase a Kessy unit from VW. It MUST be ordered with the vehicle's VIN number. It MUST also be programmed at the VW dealership. There is no getting around that fact. Vw is keeping records to where the units are being shipped to and is reffered to as a "controlled " part. All keys to the vehicle must be present at time of programming the Kessy unit. Not hard to install but has to be programmed by dealer using VW's intranet.


Ok, thanks for the info. We were told something like there aren't any in the country at the moment so im not sure how long we're looking at to get one =/

Will keep you all updated.

Thanks


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

Piers,
my Kessy unit took about 10 days to ship to me . I installed it myself by reading the instructions on how to install keyless start that I found in the TOC at the top of Phaeton form threads. I did NOT however need to remove the seat. I also placed my kessy into a zip lock bag and sealed around the cable entering the bag. 
I was given this advice by another member who had done it to his car as well as another member's car. There have been no negative effects at the time of this writing. I also pulled out my Plenum drain grommet on the advice of a very experienced and knowledgable friend of that member. 
The person had extensive experience with all high end VAG products including Bentley, Audi and VW. He agrees with the three main sources of water ingress posted here in the Phaeton forum and said the industry "cure" is to remove the plenum drain grommet completely and not merely attempting to clean it out. 
There has been discussion as to whether water will drain while the car is in motion or not if the grommet is removed. All I can say is with torrential downpours as during Hurrican Irene and the wettest month of August in history in my state, I have had no water ingress from the plenum drain after removing the grommet. I still believe it's a good idea to remove debris fairly regularly. However, I do not believe you are getting everything out nor do I believe there is a way to verify it is completely clear when attempting to clean the plenum. 
I disagree with the advice to allow a hose to run and fill up the plenum cavity to help float the things you can not flush or vacuum out. VW and the insurance company would probably deny the claim if you told them you filled the cavity with water. They would blame your maitenance practice as cause. In addition, there are electrical connectors and such not meant to take a bath. I'm not happy having to make these decisions as I feel engineers should examine the problem and make those determinations . These are things that have worked for me up to the time of this writing and I share with others if it can be helpful.:beer:


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

kend414 said:


> ...There has been discussion as to whether water will drain while the car is in motion or not if the grommet is removed.


Hi Ken:

Are you referring to removing the big orange-coloured rubber thing that is more or less centered (left to right) in the vehicle, just aft of the firewall, at the bottom of the intake air plenum (picture below)?

If that orange rubber part is removed, I am sure that the plenum would drain under all possible conditions. The problem that could arise from removing it is that you would now create an alternate air intake path for the cabin... instead of the air blower (the fresh air intake for the cabin) only being able to source air through the two cabin air filters that are located in the aft corners of the hood of the car, air could now enter the plenum via the rather large opening in the bottom of the plenum where that orange rubber part used to be. Obviously, this air would not be filtered, and it will probably be substantially warmer than ambient outside air, because the engine and catalytic converters are right below the newly-created opening.

Although I can appreciate why you removed that orange coloured one-way water valve, I think you have taken sort of a 'belt and suspenders' approach to things. In other words, now that *you *know where the plenum drain is, and *you *know the importance of keeping the plenum clean and free of debris and the drain opening working properly, *your *car is the last Phaeton in the world that needs to have that one way water valve removed... simply because it's a given that you will be keeping an eye on the cleanliness of the plenum (inspecting it once a year would probably be sufficient, maybe once ever 6 months if you park under a pine tree every day).

I think that the 'best industry practice' recommendation we should be making to newcomers is to explain to them the importance of cleaning the plenum (I believe this should be an annual task), and explaining to them how to clean the plenum (explained at this post: Cleaning Air Intake Plenum and Sunroof Drains.

I think that as a group, we need to be very, very careful about recommending that parts be removed from the car. I do agree with you that VW should have included inspecting and cleaning the air intake plenum in the maintenance and service schedule for the vehicle - and in particular, as part of that inspection, making sure that water flows freely out that orange one-way valve - but just because they forgot to include that in the maintenance schedule, I don't think we should be suggesting to people that they take the orange one-way valve off the bottom of the plenum.

I am particularly concerned about the possible entry of engine gases (i.e. carbon monoxide) into the cabin air system of a Phaeton that has had that orange one-way valve removed. This might not be a concern today, when most Phaetons in North America are between 6 and 9 years old, but it could become a very serious concern in the future if/when exhaust system components and other perishable components in the engine compartment such as rubber hoses begin to degrade.

Michael

*Plenum Water Drain One-Way Valve*


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## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

Thanks for your replies.

I've seen that picture in the cleaning thread and the garage has checked that those drains are clear.

Regards to the module I just got off the phone with them and they've said that their parts / service dealer is saying that we should replace the kessy and the related controls in the steering column (as their are fault codes coming from there, but I assume a damaged control unit could cause false errors).

With regards to having yours programmed ken, what exactly happened then? They got the module and your keys with your VIN number, programmed it, shipped it to you and you installed it?

They were basing the recommendation of changing both on the fact that they are aware the passat had a recall about a problem with the electrics in the steering column / the passat equivalent of the kessy.

They are saying that is their is a problem with both and we replace the kessy and not the steering electrics that if their is a problem then the steering electrics could damage the new kessy.

Does this sound like BS to try and get us to shell out more cash as nobody on here has even mentioned the steering electrics in any of the threads I've read.

Again we have instructed them to simply take the kessy out and inspect it before we move on, which theyre hoping to do tomorrow.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Piers1989 said:


> Regards to the module I just got off the phone with them and they've said that their parts / service dealer is saying that we should replace the kessy and the related controls in the steering column (as their are fault codes coming from there, but I assume a damaged control unit could cause false errors).


Hi Piers,
Your assumption is very right. The steering column's lock actuator is controlled by the KESSY. When the KESSY is drowned, then it can report multiple issues which do not seem, at first glance, related to this control unit. 



Piers1989 said:


> They were basing the recommendation of changing both on the fact that they are aware the passat had a recall about a problem with the electrics in the steering column / the passat equivalent of the kessy.


A Phaeton is not a big Passat. It is a totally different car with totally different control modules, the majority of which is not found in any other car (read VW) except the Bentley Continental.



Piers1989 said:


> They are saying that is their is a problem with both and we replace the kessy and not the steering electrics that if their is a problem then the steering electrics could damage the new kessy.


But it will be your problem to pay for the "steering electrics" (whatever that may be), even though there maybe nothing wrong with it. And using the same argument, they might as well replace lots of other control modules. So it is not a good argument.
Another argument in favor of not replacing other electrics is that electronics design of the last decades is already such, that one defective controller or component shall not destroy other electronics controllers.
Finally, this is not the first time that a dealer thinks that other modules need replacement because their diagnostic scan says so. Please take a moment to read through this *Thread*, where Harry (HT4) tells about the same story as yours. In post 22 of that thread, the truth is told by him, i.e. only the KESSY was replaced and the steering columns error vanished. I suggest that you print out the entire thread and show it your dealer's service manager. I'm sure it will change his mind.

Willem


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## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

Thanks very much for your advice Willem.

Ill have a look at that thread now 

EDIT: Just out of curiosity, our car does have keyless entry so its not technically a kessy being replaced, but I was just thinking - if the access control module needs replacing, can it be replaced with a kessy module instead if we were to get new keys, and then have keyless entry on our car?


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Piers1989 said:


> Just out of curiosity, our car does have keyless entry so its not technically a kessy being replaced, but I was just thinking - if the access control module needs replacing, can it be replaced with a kessy module instead if we were to get new keys, and then have keyless entry on our car?


Hi Piers,
The access control module as you called it, i.e. controller module #5, its official name is Access/Start Authorisation and also called KESSY, an acronym for Keyless Entry, Start and Stop (or System). So you are talking about the same thing here.
The KESSY takes care of a lot of things. For a start, it is connected to all door switches, inside and outside, the electronics in the door handles and the RFID transmitters which recognize the presence of a specific key. It is also connected to the ignition key (the physical one) and the start/stop button. It is connected to a number of actuators as well, such as all the door locks, the steering lock actuator and direct or via CAN with numerous other actuators and controllers, such as the start motor, the battery charger controller, the parallelling relays etc.
Whether or not you have this start/stop button installed, the car always needs the KESSY.

A drowned KESSY may report problems with attached controllers as a result of its own defects, i.e. it is not able to supply power to these sensors and actuators or it is not able to recognize the signals coming from these sensors and actuators. More or less like a drunken sailor talking to his captain. So the bottom line is that all your dealer needs to do is to replace the KESSY, do the process to match all of yours keys with the KESSY, clear the faults and then take it from there.

Willem


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

*Hello Michael*

Michael,
yes that is the rubber grommet that I refer to as the Main center Plenum drain grommet. Please understand the reason it was removed.
I had cleaned the plenum area thoroughly and despite this, I continued to have a buildup of water in the plenum that resulted in my Kessy taking a bath.
When I reached out to a member of this forum who has contacts within VW for answers to my problem, he wrote me that as a Field Operations Manager he has had many examples of water ingress and the accepted way of handling it was to remove the big orange grommet completely and to snip the ends off of the sunroof drains. 
Since VW denies ever hearing of a water ingress issue on a Phaeton, I doubt they will offer the same advice they have for their other models. I believe I have already posted the TB advising to cut the ends off the sunroof drains.
Please understand that I did not suggest anyone do anything. I explained my problem and my solution. Every member will need to assess whether the same action is correct in their circumstance.
This is a forum where members share problems and their solutions. I believe I've shared both.
I also do a rain dance to the gods to prevent heavy downpours. 
My point is members can take what they will. This is not an official site. Every attempt should be made to give accurate and helpful information but that should not be subject to whether or not a moderator believes the solution presented is valid. Feel free to disagree and shoot down any bad ideas and state your reasons . I think you'd be suprised to find who made the recommendation however that person will remain anonymous until he no longer wishes to be. If I told him I couldn't pass on his knowledge because a Moderator didn't think it was a good idea, he'd probably not offer any further assistance.
As far as the exhaust system developing leaks with age, might I suggest the rubber grommet will have long ago lost it's integrity to withold fumes. 
Well I believe you made your concerns known and I have expressed mine.:beer:


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

*Michael,*

I also don't think it matters which end of the plenum the filter takes it's air from,top or bottom. I think by the time the air from the base of the plenum box reached the filters it will have cooled considerably. I don't think heat will be much of an issue unless standing still and then it will give up it's heat to the surrounding air. The air will still be filtered. Out from plenum box (top or bottom) thru filter into blower housing into car. Given the choice of thousands of dollars worth of repairs or not a chance I believe you may have to experience the dread to correctly choose. I chose experience from someone in the know. Others can make up their own minds.


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## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

I know im new here guys but flame war isnt necessary 

Calm down and have some tea  

Everyone can have their own opinion on the matter.


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

Piers1989 said:


> I know im new here guys but flame war isnt necessary
> 
> Calm down and have some tea
> 
> Everyone can have their own opinion on the matter.


No Flame wars here. Just a difference in opinions. I just don't want people to think that because of Michael's extensive contribution and knowledge to this forum when he makes a suggestion (to only clean the Plenum drain) and not remove a part designed to be on the car, there are no other options. There are opposing viewpoints from persons in the field that are directed to do just the opposite to remedy and prevent costly problems. Whether or not to remove the part is a decision that should be made after considering several factors such as, is the car garaged, is it under warranty. is it insured for such damage, will there be a dispute for payment, have I noticed any water ingress_after _ I cleaned the plenum? I just want owners to know what options are out there, how it was this option came about and the results of the option so far. Michael makes good points and raises some concerns. I weighed those concerns and am confident I made the correct decision in my case. I believe Michael is a person who is trained in safety and will wait until he is directed by VW to take action. I do not share his confidence the "official fix" will be coming and have taken the "unofficial" approach of taking matters into my own hands. I've been burned by taking the "just clean out the plenum" and I refuse to go through the expense and headache a second time. I was fortunate enough to be given advice from experienced management in the field and I'm now done with the problem of water ingress from my center plenum drain. 
As my garage is filled and the Phaeton is the car parked outside, if sufficient debris is present in between cleanings and a heavy downpour occurs, I KNOW I won't be replacing a Kessy and all the other extra charges the dealer adds on. _If_ I garaged my car, I may indeed think it is a "Belt AND Suspender" approach. 
I would wonder just how many Phaetons , given their age, are still garaged today? Certainly if it is original, there will be newer cars owned as well as a classic or two that MUST be garaged by mandates of the insurance company. Also many used Phaetons sitting on dealers lots will not have been garaged nor were they when on dealer's lots when they were new. My point is there's probably stuff in there, going to be more stuff in there and while I have access to many fine tools such as vacuums with a multitude of attachments as well as a video borescope, compressed air I was not able to sufficently clean the plenum and advert disaster. This is probably known in the field and why the decision was reached to go ahead and remove the customer's Plenum drain.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

kend414 said:


> ..I also don't think it matters which end of the plenum the filter takes it's air from,top or bottom...


Hi again Ken:

You are correct in your observation above - the air is going to have to go through the filters to get into the fan no matter how it gets into the plenum. For some reason I had it in my mind that air coming up from the bottom would not be filtered, but as you have noted, that is an incorrect assumption.

I still can't figure out why you suggest that a knowledgeable owner - in other words, someone who knows how to do annual cleaning of that plenum, and knows how to check to make sure that water drains out the one-way valve - would want to remove the one-way valve.

If you had suggested that the one way valve be removed from every used Phaeton going through a wholesale auction lane and placed in a bag in the trunk of the car, you just might have been able to convince me that the benefits of doing that would, over the long haul and when averaged out over hundreds of cars, outweigh the disadvantages. But, to recommend that an owner who knows how to keep the plenum clean and knows how to check valve functionality should remove the one way valve... I just can't see what the benefit is.

Not sure if I have expressed myself well but that's the best way I can explain it.

Michael


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

Michael,
I'm sorry but I wasn't clear on who gave me the advice. It _wasn't _a knowledgeable forum member. A forum member introduced my problem to a *Field Operations Manager* that previously worked for VW as well as Bentley and Audi. This is a former VW problem solver who went on to bigger things. He was asked as a personal favor if he knew why I would still have water ingress if I had cleaned the plenum . 
His advice," take it out, not just the end caps put pull the whole damn thing out and snip the ends off the sunroof drains . That should be the end of your water ingress issue.
Let me know how things work out".


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

Hi Michael,

1 month ago, I decided to check out the plenum of my car, something that I never did before (I moved so my car now sleeps in an underground garage where pine leaves are rarely to be seen). In one of the side funnels, I discovered an old rag left there by a previous mechanics + a rusted torx wrench but apart from those, everything was clean.

I nevertheless tried to check out the orange end caps but found I could hardly get access to them from under the car.

I only barely managed to get to the right handside one with my arm fully extended and managed to touch it with the tip of my fingers, after poking around for nearly one hour (barely managed to see it with a lamp).

Anyway, I checked out that everything was flushing well by pouring a whole water can in the left and right funnels and then put back the bottom cover.

All in all, getting there from under was not an easy task, but I could not find in the forum any hints on how to get access to these orange caps without removing the engine (that was the photo you posted).

Any other tips for the future ?

P.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hi Pierre:

It is almost impossible to get physical access (i.e. reach with your hand) that orange one-way valve.

What I do is pretty much the same as what you have done: First I remove any vegetative debris from the plenum area, then I get a garden hose and start running some water into the bottom of the plenum. If there is any back-up of the water evident - in other words, if it does not all immediately run out the orange one-way valve - then I shove the end of the hose underneath the blower assembly and let the stream of water force any debris out of the end of the orange one-way valve.

I suppose it might be possible to use an inspection mirror or a borescope to have a look at the orange one-way valve, but I don't think that should be necessary - as long as you can flush and and all the debris out of it with the garden hose (just poking the hose back and forth), and as long as the water runs out freely and does not pool up in the plenum (meaning, as long as the water level in the plenum does not begin to rise), then things are working as they should.

Michael


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## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

Further update here:

The garage has finally taken the ECU out (in 15 mins) after they were supposed to for almost 3 weeks after dad went down to complain.

Upon taking it out they have realized that it is wet, despite telling us there was no dampness previously and are going to dry it out.

After us telling them exactly what the problem was and them replacing the ignition lock they have said they're prepared to refund us the cost of that if drying / replacing the kessy does in fact fix all the problems.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Piers,
Just for getting a correct understanding of what your dealer did, please confim that they replaced the KESSY, where you used the term ECU. In car electronics, ECU is the commonly agreed acronym for *E*ngine *C*ontrol *U*nit, which only controls the engine with the aid of a host of sensors and actuators. It is one of the roughly 35 to 40 electronics control units in the Phaeton, which are simply called cont0l modules, controllers or control units.

By the way, is your VW dealer authorised to work on Phaetons? Sometimes, VW dealers are authorized to do normal maintenance, what does not imply that they are qualified to perform special tasks.

Willem


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## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

WillemBal said:


> Piers,
> Just for getting a correct understanding of what your dealer did, please confim that they replaced the KESSY, where you used the term ECU. In car electronics, ECU is the commonly agreed acronym for *E*ngine *C*ontrol *U*nit, which only controls the engine with the aid of a host of sensors and actuators. It is one of the roughly 35 to 40 electronics control units in the Phaeton, which are simply called cont0l modules, controllers or control units.
> 
> By the way, is your VW dealer authorised to work on Phaetons? Sometimes, VW dealers are authorized to do normal maintenance, what does not imply that they are qualified to perform special tasks.
> ...


The people its with now are a VW specialist as our local dealer has only every sen one before and that was a sale. I don't know if in the UK dealers get certified specialists as that dealer said they could work on it no problem.

Basically we told them when we dropped the car off that the problem was almost certainly the kessy was wet.

Immediately they told us they checked and said it was bone dry. 

A week later they replaced the steering lock as their diagnostics said this was broken. This fixed nothing and then they said the J518 ecu needed replacing (every time I've refereed to ECU I've meant that one, and the garage knows this), along with the steering rack.

At this point we asked them to remove the ECU and check it for visible damage etc. They said they would do this for 2 weeks and never did. 
Then when dad went to see them about it just after closing time they checked there and then and it was wet after all.

Now the garage has apologised for taking so long to do 15 mins work and for replacing the locking module, and offered to refund it if after replacing / drying out the J518 the problem disappears.

The bad part of this is as soon as the car was taken too them we new almost for sure that this was the issue and the garage just ignored this and has now found that this is the problem after all.


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

That's unfortunate. I don't know why in the world they would attempt to dry it out instead of replacing it with a new one. There is a circuit board inside that shows obvious signs of corroding green oxidation on the components on the board. They should not have replaced the ignition switch as the kessy unit "controls" the ignition switch by telling the ignition switch whether or not the "key" it is reading is correct or not. Since the kessy is cuckoo it changes it's mind second by second. There was nothing wrong with the ignition switch. 

While I heard prices of up to 900.00 dollars for a new kessy, I paid 600.00 from an on line VW parts dealership. Replace the unit with a new one. Have them code it and program the keys. Start there.


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## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

Okay they've taken 2 modules out.

On board control unit 3D0 937 049 H 
control unit 3D0 909 137 FX 01E

They say both are damp, and the one that isn't the start and access control module is supposed to be something to do with power distribution.

From what people know, does this sound possible?

Also does anyone know where I could source the other control module?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

3D0 909 137 is the Access and Start Control Module (controller 05, also known as the KESSY). It is located under the driver seat footwell - at least, on the Left Hand Drive cars... I don't know if it is on the opposite side of the car for RHD.

3D0 937 049 is the Central Electrical Controller (controller 09). It is located on the sloping forward part of the passenger footwell, fairly high up from the floor. Again, this information is valid for a LHD car.

There have been reports of water pooling under the driver footwell and damaging controller 05. I can't imagine how water could damage controller 09 - the water level would need to be well above the base of the seats before it would even reach the bottom of that controller.

Wish I could help you out further, but all I can really do is stand back and watch how things develop.

Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Archival Note:

*(Possibly) Related Discussion:* Water in Front Footwell (Cleaning Air Intake Plenum and Sunroof Drains)

Michael


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## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

PanEuropean said:


> 3D0 909 137 is the Access and Start Control Module (controller 05, also known as the KESSY). It is located under the driver seat footwell - at least, on the Left Hand Drive cars... I don't know if it is on the opposite side of the car for RHD.
> 
> 3D0 937 049 is the Central Electrical Controller (controller 09). It is located on the sloping forward part of the passenger footwell, fairly high up from the floor. Again, this information is valid for a LHD car.
> 
> ...



I think they think that the water has come in from around that area (the ellectrical connections) and I assume it has run down the bulkhead and got into them both.

Ill speak to them tomorrow and make sure they confirm the electrical distribution module is damp and not just an error code.

If it is an error code and not damp, could this also be caused by the kessy or is it completely separate?


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Hi Piers,
As Michael already noted, there is not a big chance that the Central Electronic Controller was flooded or even “damp” because of water ingress. You might want to ask your VW specialist what he thinks that the cause might be. It might as well be dampness due to the fact that the car has been standing on a car park, exposed to all types of weather conditions. Around this time of the year, dampness of just about any component in the car can occur early in the morning, as a result of a combination of saturated air and the temperature of the car. When something is damp, it doesn't imply it is non-functional. And controllers are actually quite water tight. Just not the KESSY, unfortunately.

I must say that it surprises me that your specialist has such lack of decisiveness in this matter. The KESSY is the major controller to be replaced first, which requires you to bring both keys in so they can be adapted to each other. After they receive the new KESSY, it is a matter of an hour or so to replace and match it with both keys. Your dealer must have a special VAS tool and has to make a connection with VW headquarters for this task. Only VW authorized dealers can do this for you.

I also think that your VW specialist makes two essential errors in their way of thinking. :screwy:
The first is that they think that one defective controller can infect other healthy controllers or even components. The second error is that they believe that the P can only work when all controllers are in flawless condition.
In fact, there is no need to replace suspicious components, just because there were some errors. Start with the most obvious component and then diagnose further if needed.

Summarizing in a nutshell:
The first priority is to correct the major problems, i.e. make things dry which got wet, then replace the KESSY and do the necessary work to match it with the keys. Then run diagnostic scans if needed to see if other controllers still throw codes. In short: make the damn car work.
Then it is time for some prevention to make sure this does not ever happen again, such as cleaning the roof and air intake plenum drains. 

Your story is actually the first reported one, where a dealer kept telling new stories, coming up with new issues and correcting earlier statements during a period of well over 3 weeks, while nothing really happens. Perhaps it is time to express your concerns to them?

Willem


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## kend414 (Feb 10, 2009)

Piers1989 said:


> The people its with now are a VW specialist as our local dealer has only every sen one before and that was a sale. I don't know if in the UK dealers get certified specialists as that dealer said they could work on it no problem.


Piers,
I think youmay have a problem here. A specialist, no matter how experienced or knowledgeable, cannot program the Kessy module. ONLY, ONLY a VW dealership or a VW recognized, authorized and registered subscription garage has the online capability to program the module and code the keys to the new module. If your specialist has the VW intranet access then he can perform the necessary tasks. 
The tech must be online with VW headquarters a pin is sent electronically ( the tech doesn't ever see the pin) the computer directs him to begin adapting each key. If the number of keys the tech originally entered as being coded are not present and coded, the system will kick him out and the tech must reattempt coding with the correct number of keys. This is not Etka. This is a direct connection to VW. Please be certain your specialist is aware of the programming requirements.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Piers:

Ken has raised a very important point in his post directly above - please read his post VERY CAREFULLY.

The Phaeton, like most other modern vehicles, has a very complex anti-theft system. In the Phaeton, there are three controllers involved in the anti-theft process: The Access and Start Controller (controller 05, which is the one under the floor), the engine controller (controller 01, and also controller 11 if the engine has more than 8 cylinders), and the instrument cluster itself (controller 17).

If any one of these three (possibly 4) controllers are replaced, then the new controller needs to be 'adapted' to the other ones. As Ken explained, this can only be done by a VW dealer, simply because it is necessary to connect to VW headquarters over the internet to do this (this is necessary for trust purposes - otherwise, any chop shop could tow cars away, install new controllers, and reprogram them to work just fine).

So... if one of the above-mentioned controllers needs to be replaced - the car will have to be taken to a VW dealer, plain and simple, period, no ifs, ands, or buts.

Also be aware that you must bring in all of the keys for the car at the same time the adaptation of the controller is being done. Any keys not present at the time of the adaptation will be disqualified and will not work anymore. This is also an essential part of the integrity of the anti-theft system design.

Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

kend414 said:


> ...If the number of keys the tech originally entered as being coded are not present and coded, the system will kick him out and the tech must reattempt coding with the correct number of keys...


The tech does have an option to proceed with only the keys that are present, but, doing so will result in any keys that are not present being disqualified from future use. The key blade of any missing keys will still unlock the driver door or the trunk, but the transponder within the key will not be recognized, and the alarm will then go off either immediately or 15 seconds after the door/trunk is opened, depending on how the alarm system has been configured.

It is interesting to note here that the physical key blade (the teeth cut into the key) is totally ignored by the ignition switch on a Phaeton. You can take ANY Phaeton key and stick it in ANY Phaeton and it will enable you to rotate the ignition switch. This is because Phaeton ignition switches don't even pay attention to the teeth cut in the key. But... the car will only respond to the presence of the key (meaning, start) if the transponder embedded in the base of the key blade is recognized.

Michael


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## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

Thanks guys, the specialist is aware of this and has arranged with VW to have this done by them. also both keys are with the car so neither will be left behind.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Piers1989 said:


> Thanks guys, the specialist is aware of this and has arranged with VW to have this done by them. also both keys are with the car so neither will be left behind.


Pierre,
By now, you know more than your specialist! 
Willem


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## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

I feel like I probably do, but without any of the tools to diagnose stuff or get to anything other than the battery (and after reading this forum I would try taking out the ecu myself), there isnt much I can do apart form wait for the inept people


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

The only 'tool' you need to carry out 90% of all possible diagnostic activities is a VAG-COM (VCDS). Here is a link to the Ross-Tech website: Ross-Tech.

The cost of this tool is equal to about 3 hours of diagnostic labour at a dealership. I think it is a worthwhile investment for any Phaeton owner.

Michael


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## Piers1989 (Sep 3, 2011)

Cool thanks Michael, once the cars sorted ill get one for future use 

Spoke to the garage today and they've taken both the kessy and the electric controller out as I said. They've opened the electronic one up to check for water ingress and apparently it has been flooded too, and after drying it it shows signs of damage.

They've ordered obth and will be getting the kessy done at the VW dealership, tho im sure when it comes to getting that dont the dealership won't know what to do and I'll have to educate them too 

Does anyone know if there are Phaeton certified techs in the UK or is it just general service people?


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