# Farewell to a FrankenFriend: F4T ----> F21T



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

..

Now $999 for base kit of turbo, ceramic-coated manifold & inlet pipe​


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Whabam!

Nice job Doug


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

:thumbup::thumbup:


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

How is this different than the F4?


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

suffocatemymind said:


> How is this different than the F4?


Not sure on the changes in the turbo, but look at those logs he posted. They look beautiful for a small frame turbo like this.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

opcorn:


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Nice! If you need a tester Doug..holla! I'll rip the F4t off the daily and toss the F21 on and do all the testing your heart:heart: desires!:laugh::beer:


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Really decent numbers, considering the timing, octane, no wmi and the boost level. Another winner for us!


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## MrAkalin (Jan 4, 2011)

:thumbup:


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## Scigano (Mar 10, 2011)

If this runs closer to the F23, will this turbo require new rods — since the F4T could be used w/ stock internals?


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

does this mean fire sale on f4t?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Scigano said:


> If this runs closer to the F23, will this turbo require new rods — since the F4T could be used w/ stock internals?


The new variant F21T is designed to be run on a stock motor. The Eurodyne 550cc file, Unitronic Stage 2+, Motoza, United Motorsports and all others will manage the engine safely on this turbo.



taverncustoms said:


> does this mean fire sale on f4t?


They're all gone.  I'm a little sad about it, to be honest. But new stock -- and a new beginning for FrankenTurbo -- happens in only a few days.


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## MrAkalin (Jan 4, 2011)

Check your email Doug! :laugh:


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Come on Doug...you know you want me to test, test, test, for you.:laugh::beer:


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Also Doug for those of us who already have the f4t kit, are you thinking of a "upgrade" deal if we want only the turbo?


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

are the prices going to remain the same as f4t?


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## Beat the Heat (Apr 4, 2005)

That is awesome news Doug!!!


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Twopnt016v said:


> Also Doug for those of us who already have the f4t kit, are you thinking of a "upgrade" deal if we want only the turbo?


That's a good question. And it's one I addressed when changing over from the F4 series to the 21s on the longitudinal motors and 2.7T twins. It came up with some frequency, actually. And my answer came in two parts:



FrankenTurbo has completely phased out the F4 design for the (_fill-in-the-blank_) platform. Going forward all warranty and other post-purchase replacements will be performed using the state-of-the-art F21 design.










In other words, the "no fault CHRA" policy works to get an upgrade. Just be sure to read our warranty statement for the standard caveats and small print.


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## zrau17 (Apr 21, 2010)

Jesus Christ that's hilarious.


"Well, I heard they are made in sweatshops...by orphans :sly:"


also, refer to...this video for related content.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> That's a good question. And it's one I addressed when changing over from the F4 series to the 21s on the longitudinal motors and 2.7T twins. It came up with some frequency, actually. And my answer came in two parts:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I :heart: Frankenturbo!


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

suffocatemymind said:


> How is this different than the F4?


Ok Doug, as a F4h-t owner, can you please explain the differences between the above, and now the replacement, as if I wished to upgrade from the F4h-t, do I look at the F21 of F23 ?

Regards Lenny

ps possibly the only F4h-t in N Ireland


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

groggory said:


> Not sure on the changes in the turbo, but look at those logs he posted. They look beautiful for a small frame turbo like this.


Don't take this the wrong way, but I can - in fact - read and interpret charts haha...I'm asking about the specs and/or the differences over its predecessor, as these results make this package very appealing. Thumbs up to you, Doug!


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

suffocatemymind said:


> Don't take this the wrong way, but I can - in fact - read and interpret charts haha...I'm asking about the specs and/or the differences over its predecessor, as these results make this package very appealing. Thumbs up to you, Doug!


No offense taken. Some people aren't so talented with interpreting data and graphs.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

The 21-series is an evolutionary -- not REVOLUTIONARY -- step forward for the product line. The 21 turbos now feature a proprietary compressor wheel unavailable through BorgWarner or elsewhere. And the new name, "21", references that. The FrankenFins compressor wheel in the new turbo has larger dimensions than the Borg-derived wheel in the previous series.

But this change isn't really about vanity or bragging rights. The new compressor wheel reflects our desire to improve and differentiate our product. And...hold your breath fellas...to expand beyond the 1.8T Audi/VW market. We wanted a modern, more capable compressor, and had reached the critical mass with our suppliers to convince them to do it. So this new wheel is the sole change to the turbos. It is more efficient at the power range people expect, making customer's goals more achievable, and making the turbos more reliable over the long haul.

:beer:


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## BoostedGLS0218 (Dec 10, 2011)

If these are the same turbos that are on the longitudinal 1.8t then the specs can be seen on the frankenturbo website and be compared to the f4 as that is still on the site for now.


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## r3coil (Aug 22, 2011)

any idea what kinda numbers you are looking at with 93 octane? (if it is different from 91) really interested, subscribed...


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

groggory said:


> No offense taken. Some people aren't so talented with interpreting data and graphs.


Haha, this is true.


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

And Doug - that's exactly what I wanted to hear...excellent!


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## forcefedjetta (Aug 14, 2003)

So is the f23 going to remain in the franken line up or is there an f25 on the way?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

^^ x2


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Actually, it was the F23 design process which gave rise to altering and improving the F4 ---> F21. During testing of that larger turbo, one our testers kept pressuring me for a bigger compressor wheel. I pushed back, saying a larger size would compromise what makes a FrankenTurbo a FrankenTurbo: spool. But eventually he wore me down and I decided to ask my supplier if they'd be willing to go "off the reservation", so to speak, with the compressor wheel design. So rather than mimicking BorgWarner wheel specs we developed our own, 23-series wheel. And when we tested it, something interesting happened: spool was unchanged. Granted, the uptick in performance from where we were was slight. But it was there, and it came with no spool penalty. So with that experience I decided the F4 turbos could get a similar treatment. With the introduction of the F21 for transversal 1.8T, that process is complete.


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## rains (May 30, 2008)

Fantastic.

My question is - for someone wishing to not build the block, or the valvetrain, would the f23 or the f21 (with appropriate software) be the ideal choice? Like, for someone who wants to get the most out of the stock block possible?


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## Scigano (Mar 10, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> The new variant F21T is designed to be run on a stock motor. The Eurodyne 550cc file, Unitronic Stage 2+, Motoza, United Motorsports and all others will manage the engine safely on this turbo.


The F21 was designed to function on a stock block. The F23 was at designed to run _at least_ on the larger 16V 20 mm wrist-pin connecting rods from the 225 TT (or earlier narrowband versions of some 1.8Ts — check 1.8T FAQs).


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Scigano said:


> ...larger 16V 20 mm wrist-pin connecting rods from the 225 TT (or earlier narrowband versions of some 1.8Ts — check 1.8T FAQs).


For the record, I'm pretty skeptical that the 20mm wrist pin rods are stronger in a meaningful way. Yes, they're beefier at the piston bushing. But otherwise, they're pretty much the same. For that reason, I encourage F23 customers with any 1.8T to invest in strengthened connecting rods.

It's pretty simple really:

F21 is great as a repair for a stock or stock-plus customer looking for a fun, simple upgrade
F23 is more of a project to install and is best suited to someone looking to invest time (and cash) in their project/hobby car.


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## Scigano (Mar 10, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> For the record, I'm pretty skeptical that the 20mm wrist pin rods are stronger in a meaningful way. Yes, they're beefier at the piston bushing. But otherwise, they're pretty much the same. For that reason, I encourage F23 customers with any 1.8T to invest in strengthened connecting rods.


I made the assumption since the F23 seemed like a direct upgrade for the K04-22/23 slug in the 225 motor (like the -001 is for any other 1.8T) — I defer to you for sure in the matter.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Could you give the specs of the compressor wheel itself? Diameters inducer and exducer would be nice. What preload are you using? 

I'm looking for a dual port wastegate solution, I wonder if you know where to find something suitable for this frame? 

:wave:


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

...still a k04 lol...umpkin:umpkin:umpkin::vampire::vampire::vampire::wave:


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

um i feel dumb asking but... will this still bolt up to my 3" k03-S Down pipe? for my AWP.


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## dubbin_dan (Jul 2, 2011)

I'll definitely be keeping my eye on this for when my f4t goes.opcorn:


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

taverncustoms said:


> um i feel dumb asking but... will this still bolt up to my 3" k03-S Down pipe? for my AWP.


Yep.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Vegeta Gti said:


> ...still a k04 lol...umpkin:umpkin:umpkin::vampire::vampire::vampire::wave:


... and ?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

DMVDUB said:


> Could you give the specs of the compressor wheel itself? Diameters inducer and exducer would be nice. What preload are you using?


Photos illustrating the dimensions of the new wheel are on the F21T product page. As is a compressor map. Speaking of which, I am going to state this preemptively: our power estimate is 260 to the wheels. I don't care what you guys think you see in the map. _260._ Say it with me!


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## six sigma (Jun 22, 2007)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> ... and ?


Some will always insist that we need to jump to a gt30xx in order to have fun I guess.

Personally, this new product sounds perfect for my needs, other than having to go with a different tune. (Have apr) Can't wait for impressions from the first to use it.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Scigano said:


> The F21 was designed to function on a stock block. The F23 was at designed to run _at least_ on the larger 16V 20 mm wrist-pin connecting rods from the 225 TT (or earlier narrowband versions of some 1.8Ts &#151; check 1.8T FAQs).


Big reliable power has been made on aftermarket 19mm rods.

If you plan on buying new pistons, thats when the obvious choice of 20mm comes in.


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

groggory said:


> Big reliable power has been made on aftermarket 19mm rods.
> 
> If you plan on buying new pistons, thats when the obvious choice of 20mm comes in.


yep :thumbup:


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

As an FYI to the people following (without posting) this thread. Here is a look at the OEM connecting rods we're discussing. As you can see, the part which connects to the piston differs. But my concern is with the "rods" themselves, which I reckon to be about the same.


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

agreed, why move to 20mm if this is supposed to be for a stock bottom end...when there are guys with nearly 400ft.lbs and explosive power bands down low on just drop in 19mm rods....doesn't make sense.

i would do rods just because, security in strength, peace of mind, etc.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

Drop in 19 IE's here...


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Twopnt016v said:


> Drop in 19 IE's here...


Me too


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## neru (Oct 22, 2011)

is it worth spending the extra dollar on rods for the F23 compared to the F21


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## Teh_Chris (Dec 31, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> As an FYI to the people following (without posting) this thread. Here is a look at the OEM connecting rods we're discussing. As you can see, the part which connects to the piston differs. But my concern is with the "rods" themselves, which I reckon to be about the same.


Sub'd For More Info. 

I Went With 20mm Forged Rods , JE pistons and the FSI crank with a built AEB head when i did my rebuild/2.0L stroker ..... sent yah a PM btw bro .... hopefully in the next month i can toss my ko3s into my parts room and bolt on a F21 or F23 .


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## Pisko (Jan 14, 2006)

I`ve had the plessure of rocking the F21 for 4 weeks now and its great:thumbup:
Only downside is this turbo combined with summer tires on snow is just plain dangerous:thumbdown: Ask me how I know


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## FTMFW (Jan 1, 2008)

Doug, you're a bad bad man for doing this. Do you know how long and hard I've been trying to get all my bills paid off, then you go and show me some sh!t like this.... it's so tempting!!!


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Pisko said:


> I`ve had the plessure of rocking the F21 for 4 weeks now and its great:thumbup:
> Only downside is this turbo combined with summer tires on snow is just plain dangerous:thumbdown: Ask me how I know


Id loan you my blizzak set. Be careful.


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## Pisko (Jan 14, 2006)

groggory said:


> Id loan you my blizzak set. Be careful.


Thanks, its sorted now. Got back from wrk and as I got the car from the airport parking lot, 
Mr Winter decided it was time to start the winter season with some snow.
The F21 is crazy fun with quattro on the snow, just wish I would have bought the 
center diff upgrade from 034 this summer. oh well, next year perhaps..


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## babarber (Nov 3, 2008)

Doug...... i think i love you:laugh:


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## Scigano (Mar 10, 2011)

groggory said:


> Big reliable power has been made on aftermarket 19mm rods.
> 
> If you plan on buying new pistons, thats when the obvious choice of 20mm comes in.


I'd assume as much that aftermarket forged 19mm rods would be strong enough, but when talking about the stock cast parts — I thought the 20mm were the minimum for the F23 (since I thought it was essentially a bigger K04-22/23, the 225 turbo which comes with 20mm rods). I thought you could get away w/ a little more if you had those stock — but not that aftermarket 20s were also necessary.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Scigano said:


> I'd assume as much that aftermarket forged 19mm rods would be strong enough, but when talking about the stock cast parts &#151; I thought the 20mm were the minimum for the F23 (since I thought it was essentially a bigger K04-22/23, the 225 turbo which comes with 20mm rods). I thought you could get away w/ a little more if you had those stock &#151; but not that aftermarket 20s were also necessary.


Stock 20's bend roughly as easily as stock 19's... Just with better stock pistons


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Scigano said:


> I'd assume as much that aftermarket forged 19mm rods would be strong enough, but when talking about the stock cast parts &#151; I thought the 20mm were the minimum for the F23 (since I thought it was essentially a bigger K04-22/23, the 225 turbo which comes with 20mm rods). I thought you could get away w/ a little more if you had those stock &#151; but not that aftermarket 20s were also necessary.












Rod strength, as you can see here, doesn't have a ton to do with wrist pin size. The weak point is the rod itself!


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## VW_Calvin (May 8, 2008)

What all for upgrades other than the kit? I'll be buying this next day or two, just checking what else I need or would want....


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## Scigano (Mar 10, 2011)

suffocatemymind said:


>


So Salvador Dali


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## FTMFW (Jan 1, 2008)

VW_Calvin said:


> What all for upgrades other than the kit? I'll be buying this next day or two, just checking what else I need or would want....


Injectors and software


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Scigano said:


> So Salvador Dali


Haha. I was struggling for an apt thing to say about that picture. Best I could think of was "there is no spoon". Not as good.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Neo... You're not doing right!


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## VWBugman00 (Mar 17, 2009)

This is awesome. Thanks to Doug and to Frankenturbo for continuing to develop new products for this aging platform. 

I have to wonder though, what a ball-bearing CHRA for the F23 would do, if anything...

These turbo's are all about spool characteristics, it just makes me wonder.


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## woodywoods86 (Jul 29, 2008)

^This :what:


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

VWBugman00 said:


> These turbo's are all about spool characteristics, it just makes me wonder.


They are also all about price point, and I think a DBB CHRA would unfortunately counter that. Definitely sounds cool though...


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## VWBugman00 (Mar 17, 2009)

suffocatemymind said:


> They are also all about price point, and I think a DBB CHRA would unfortunately counter that. Definitely sounds cool though...


Yeah, most definitely.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

So it's essentially a 2275 in a K03 housing.


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## Teh_Chris (Dec 31, 2007)

suffocatemymind said:


> Rod strength, as you can see here, *doesn't have a ton to do with wrist pin size. The weak point is the rod itself!*


very true ... as far as i know (correct me if im wrong) im one of the few if not the only one sofar to *break* a factory rod with the factory ko3s and on a unitronic stg2 file pushing 22-25 psi ... which is the reason for my stroker build 










the size comparison of a factory AWP rod vs my forged rods


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## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

DANG Chris!?! I didnt know that happened to you. Makes me worried about mine on my F23:laugh::thumbup:


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## Teh_Chris (Dec 31, 2007)

RodgertheRabit II said:


> DANG Chris!?! I didnt know that happened to you. Makes me worried about mine on my F23:laugh::thumbup:


Yeah Greg ... check out my facebook page for updates or my thread On Myfastgti
http://myfastgti.com/volkswagen/threads/12056-Teh-Chr!s-MkIV-Jetta-GLI


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

Teh_Chris said:


> Yeah Greg ... check out my facebook page for updates or my thread On Myfastgti
> http://myfastgti.com/volkswagen/threads/12056-Teh-Chr!s-MkIV-Jetta-GLI


LOL. Noticed that your thread is under your banned account. What happened?


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## Teh_Chris (Dec 31, 2007)

groggory said:


> LOL. Noticed that your thread is under your banned account. What happened?


Haha nothing happend im a moderator there  its a custom user title 



Sent From Mah iPhone4 Using Teh Tapatalk B!tches


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## ArcticFox (Nov 4, 2005)

Hey Doug you think you'll take your Frankenturbo's to the T25/T3 footprints? A T3 version of the F23 w/ External WG would make a pretty interesting track car setup.


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## Ninorc (Nov 4, 2007)

I don't mean to brag or anything. But Doug has informed me that my new F21T was shipped out today.

That's right. Be jealous.


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## MrAkalin (Jan 4, 2011)

Mine shipped today. It will already be here Wednesday, you're awesome Doug :thumbup:


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## VW_Calvin (May 8, 2008)

Mine shipped this morning also! 
Won't be here till Monday tho 
Doug was going to try and get it to me before I left back to work


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

F21, 

Injectors of ???cc, ?bar fpr for said injectors, best software for this setup is from ?, DV...anything else? Glad I didn't pull the trigger a couple of months ago.


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## VW_Calvin (May 8, 2008)

Injector size and FPR depend on the software, they gotta match what the software calls for.

Maestro 550cc (like the dyno plots) calls for 
Bosch 550cc injectors
3bar FPR
More adjustability than Unitonics

Unitronics Stage 2+ for FT calls for
Green Giant 440cc injectors
3bar FPR
Simpler, more plug and play than Maestro, also cheaper

DV is just a DV, doesn't really matter which one. I've got a Forge 007 and its good.


Ideal parts to have beforehand are
-Upgraded intercooler
-2.5" or larger exhaust
-Upgraded DV


I've got Revo Stage 2, and looking to upgrade. Contacted Revo and they said their software isnt supported for Frankenturbo. Ill be upgrading Maestro when mine comes in.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

Don't use that Maestro file, it's *crap*. Fuel is WAY off and drivability is garbage. 

I'm not going to make any recommendations on who to use I'll just say, stay far, far away from that GARBAGE MAESTRO FILE!


I don't think Maestro or Eurodyne Base files have a single file that has proper fueling for any setup. I tried the 550 Hybrid / F21 file and it sucked balls. At first I was like hey this is ok... a week later I handed the ecu back and never thought about Maestro again. This was about two weeks ago so I doubt there's been any big changes, hell even Big Tom's 50trim file from eurodyne sucks, he claims.


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## MrAkalin (Jan 4, 2011)

DMVDUB said:


> Don't use that Maestro file, it's *crap*. Fuel is WAY off and drivability is garbage.
> 
> I'm not going to make any recommendations on who to use I'll just say, stay far, far away from that GARBAGE MAESTRO FILE!
> 
> ...


Loved my Maestro file on the F4 

Doubt the F21 will change much. Haven't went over 15psi yet. We'll see, I have confidence in it


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## JimmyRustle (Aug 9, 2012)

Ninorc said:


> That's right. Be jealous.


Jealous of a K04?:sly:


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

JimmyRustle said:


> Jealous of a K04?:sly:


umadbro opcorn:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

MrAkalin said:


> Loved my Maestro file on the F4
> 
> Doubt the F21 will change much. Haven't went over 15psi yet. We'll see, I have confidence in it


I've run the F21 file and no matter what you're running the fuel is off. The map is just screwed up. It's jerky, has insane rev hang, when you turn the ac on it will rev to redline, etc. Unless you think that's normal :sly:

By any chance did you also have to run a boost controller in line with it as well, or in place of the N75?


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## MrAkalin (Jan 4, 2011)

DMVDUB said:


> I've run the F21 file and no matter what you're running the fuel is off. The map is just screwed up. It's jerky, has insane rev hang, when you turn the ac on it will rev to redline, etc. Unless you think that's normal :sly:
> 
> By any chance did you also have to run a boost controller in line with it as well, or in place of the N75?


Fuel looks fine to me. And ac was fine also.. Boost control is replacing the n75. Like I said I haven't pushed the car yet. Only 15 psi. Power band was smooth everything was fine. 

Sure there wasn't other issues with the car?


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

No issues with the car, I swapped the ecu with mine. When I put mine in it ran perfectly again. It foes the same thing on my friends car. There's also no reason you should pay $800 for software and still need to use a MBC. I'm running a Hybrid, totally controlled by N75 at 22-25psi no spikes, no fluctuation, perfectly smooth. 

I'm not making up the fact of the file being screwy. It IS the file. The whole reason we put it on my car is because we know my car runs well.


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## MrAkalin (Jan 4, 2011)

DMVDUB said:


> No issues with the car, I swapped the ecu with mine. When I put mine in it ran perfectly again. It foes the same thing on my friends car. There's also no reason you should pay $800 for software and still need to use a MBC. I'm running a Hybrid, totally controlled by N75 at 22-25psi no spikes, no fluctuation, perfectly smooth.
> 
> I'm not making up the fact of the file being screwy. It IS the file. The whole reason we put it on my car is because we know my car runs well.


I like using a MBC, doesn't bother me one bit. The tune runs fine on my car, maybe that's because it could be an updated file? Also isn't the whole point of Eurodyne self tuning? If the basefile isn't something you like, tune it yourself, I thought that's why people bought Eurodyne..


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## Big_Tom (Aug 19, 2007)

MrAkalin said:


> I like using a MBC, doesn't bother me one bit. The tune runs fine on my car, maybe that's because it could be an updated file?


DITTO. The new files are much better than the old and I :heart: my MBC...


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## theswoleguy (Jan 25, 2006)

Hey Doug you ever thought about rewheeling a different turbo? Still of the ko3 bw type. My new toy may eventually need a little more air  could be a good market as its fresh.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Yup. Coming up are products for the FSI and MINI Cooper S. Both will share DNA with the F23 and F21 respectively.

As for the Eurodyne F21T file, I have run it and had little problem with it. The only issue had to do with the ECU tolerating engine load levels with the stroked engine on a bigger turbo.


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## goscha7452 (Jun 9, 2011)

Twopnt016v said:


> Come on Doug...you know you want me to test, test, test, for you.:laugh::beer:


It was already tested there bud....


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## gsxf (Sep 18, 2006)

Hello, then I have to change the compressor wheel to update my F4T or new turbocharger f21?


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

gsxf said:


> Hello, then I have to change the compressor wheel to update my F4T or new turbocharger f21?


Is there something wrong with your F4T? Or do you just want the latest and the greatest?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

gsxf said:


> Hello, then I have to change the compressor wheel to update my F4T or new turbocharger f21?


If you're within one year of the purchase date you can upgrade via the "no fault CHRA replacement" thing we've got. But it won't happen unless you contact us directly.


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## Ninorc (Nov 4, 2007)

Got the F21T installed. Doug told me I would feel a difference, well, I do.

I was the last of the beta testers for the original FrankenTurbo design. So I have been rocking the original Franken for about 3 years and 35,000 miles later, it never let me down.

First impressions were a major difference in boost characteristics. The build to full boost is much smoother then with the original.

Now I only need to get my flash redone for this turbo.


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## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

so whats the best tuning option for this new turbo?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Ninorc said:


> ...
> I was the last of the beta testers for the original FrankenTurbo design...



Look how cute that old one is!


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## goscha7452 (Jun 9, 2011)

taverncustoms said:


> so whats the best tuning option for this new turbo?


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Unitronic Stage 2+
Eurodyne F21 550cc
Motoza custom mapping
United Motorsports custom mapping
C2 Motorsports custom mapping 
J-Fonz custom mapping
Badger5 custom mapping

etc.


----------



## VW_Calvin (May 8, 2008)

People who have it installed, how is it?? Which software?
Mine came in the mail today, but I won't be home for 2 weeks :'(
So I need to amp myself up with posts any videos I can find!! Haha


Sadly I haven't been in a "fast" car before, my stage 2 is probably fastest *facepalm*, so I'm sure I'll be amazed. I'm pretty sure I'll be picking up Maestro.


----------



## Nateness (Jun 25, 2010)

I'm running the F21 on my 2.0L B5 A4. It's a lot of fun for a daily driver. The turbo is great value for the performance received, though don't expect to pull away from bolt on WRX's or Evo's. Well, maybe hold even with VF-series WRX's...

To put it in perspective, I made a solid 235 AWHP at 20 PSI on 91 octane. Im using 034 ME7 software. It feels fast compared to my old K03S, but not nearly as quick as my FD RX7 with bolt on parts. With mild cams and sufficient supporting mods, I wouldn't be surprised if other F21 users start showing dyno numbers close to what plain Jane GTRS users have.



VW_Calvin said:


> People who have it installed, how is it?? Which software?
> Mine came in the mail today, but I won't be home for 2 weeks :'(
> So I need to amp myself up with posts any videos I can find!! Haha
> 
> ...


----------



## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

My F21 CHRA upgrade kit, should be on its way by now, Oh Yeah !!!!!

Regards Lenny


----------



## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

Would a new factory 02M clutch & pressure plate hold the amount of torque this kit puts out?


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Yes. The FrankenTT test car ran a stock 02M clutch when testing the bigger F23.


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Yes. The FrankenTT test car ran a stock 02M clutch when testing the bigger F23.


I guessed it should. A replacement is way cheaper than a stage I or II setup. My parts list is pushing $5K counting an F21. 

Do you have one in stock?


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## goscha7452 (Jun 9, 2011)

Brake Weight said:


> I guessed it should. A replacement is way cheaper than a stage I or II setup. My parts list is pushing $5K counting an F21.
> 
> Do you have one in stock?



I told you I have one literally five minutes from your house with NO MILES on it that you could drive on the car... :facepalm:


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

goscha7452 said:


> I told you I have one literally five minutes from your house with NO MILES on it that you could drive on the car... :facepalm:


:laugh: More like 45 mins. A used one with used gaskets, at least a hundred miles on it, and a lousy dynosheet to go with it. My stock numbers were better. :facepalm:

Reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z22d3HrxXYU


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Brake Weight said:


> Do you have one in stock?





Brake Weight said:


> Reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z22d3HrxXYU


Haha. Exactly. By the way, the power-curve's ass is altogether sweeter with this new turbo.


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## goscha7452 (Jun 9, 2011)

Brake Weight said:


> :laugh: More like 45 mins. A used one with used gaskets, at least a hundred miles on it, and a lousy dynosheet to go with it. My stock numbers were better. :facepalm:
> 
> Reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z22d3HrxXYU


The truth is you're broke and wasting everyone's time. Where is your stock sheet ( you don't have one) where's your car ( broken). I replaced one resistor and all is good. ( you don't know how to check) i'll be putting on the dyno again in a few weeks when the facility frees up.

Doug this guy couldn't afford a bargain priced kit so it's probably a bust. 

If anyone is interested in a f21 with 300 miles on it for cheap pm me.


----------



## goscha7452 (Jun 9, 2011)

Btw here's pics from Sunday... ( my car got there under its own power... I could have gotten you a tow truck) 

The owner of the Golf R in this picture can tell you my car moves... And how nice my tail lights look as they go by. 

Outta here


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

It was only a joke. Why be such a nutsack about a lousy dyno pass? It's not all about money, it's about having one's priorities in order. Some here are grown folks with kids, mortgages, and such. 

Maybe a little something, something for a bargain deal F21...


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## goscha7452 (Jun 9, 2011)

Brake Weight said:


> It was only a joke. Why be such a nutsack about a lousy dyno pass? It's not all about money, it's about having one's priorities in order. Some here are grown folks with kids, mortgages, and such.
> 
> Maybe a little something, something for a bargain deal F21...


I have a mortgage, wife's student loans, four vehicles all on the road etc... 

And yes you have enough money there to buy a small frame turbo new or used. The point is YOU told me you couldn't afford $800 for a turbo I would let you drive on the car to make sure it's what you want... 

As for the dyno sheet. At the end of the day it's the same turbo. And no stock 1.8t is making that in complete factory form. 

But spend an extra $300... It's not hurting me


----------



## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

I never said I didn't have enough funds. I said it'd be a while before I needed it. I could get it now and wait till my next round of checks to get the clutch, timing belt kit, poly bushings everywhere, etc. Due to time constraints, I still haven't pulled the heads. That's tomorrow morning, I hope. If the pistons are grenaded, I'll be digging into the bottom end. I've been looking at a set of coilovers for 4 weeks now, still in the box on my garage floor. 

...tell me about the new sweeter assed power curve I'll have...


----------



## goscha7452 (Jun 9, 2011)

Brake Weight said:


> I never said I didn't have enough funds. I said it'd be a while before I needed it. I could get it now and wait till my next round of checks to get the clutch, timing belt kit, poly bushings everywhere, etc. Due to time constraints, I still haven't pulled the heads. That's tomorrow morning, I hope. If the pistons are grenaded, I'll be digging into the bottom end. I've been looking at a set of coilovers for 4 weeks now, still in the box on my garage floor.
> 
> ...tell me about the new sweeter assed power curve I'll have...


If you get into your bottom end you might as well go f23 or a garret.

And you know I can't beat that monotoned hamster :laugh:


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

goscha7452 said:


> If you get into your bottom end you might as well go f23 or a garret.


That's why it's the last few purchases.


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## goscha7452 (Jun 9, 2011)

Brake Weight said:


> That's why it's the last few purchases.


Then why ask if the kits are in stock?... But whatever. The car. The kit. Me. Its all here if you're interested. 

Not gonna trash Doug's thread. 

:waveoug


----------



## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z22d3HrxXYU


----------



## goscha7452 (Jun 9, 2011)

Brake Weight said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z22d3HrxXYU


Yeah i get it... you represent the last part of the video... not really ready to buy just asking for the sake of asking...:facepalm:


----------



## sauron18 (Apr 11, 2009)

So the F21 is for about for 260whp what are the numbers of the F23?
Doug could you compare the F21 vs the F23?


----------



## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

Ordered  another frankenTT on the way


----------



## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

sauron18 said:


> So the F21 is for about for 260whp what are the numbers of the F23?
> Doug could you compare the F21 vs the F23?


the #s for f23s vary, but they meet/exceed apr stage 3 #s thats for sure. You can run a F23 on a stock block (16-18psi) relatively safely. Once rods are in, its off to the moon! haha

Go to Frankenturbo.com theres a bunch of info on each turbo:thumbup:


----------



## 04VDubGLI (May 20, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Photos illustrating the dimensions of the new wheel are on the F21T product page. As is a compressor map. Speaking of which, I am going to state this preemptively: our power estimate is 260 to the wheels. I don't care what you guys think you see in the map. _260._ Say it with me!


:sly: I see something a good bit healthier than 260whp in that map. Just my .02  I'm not saying you shouldn't say it's estimated to be 260whp, I'm just saying that I wouldn't be surprised to see 10% more than that on a well setup car... maybe more if someone is seriously 1337?


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

and with conservative timing. Good numbers Doug!


----------



## Nateness (Jun 25, 2010)

Best I've observed to date on my F21 is 250 g/s running 27 PSI peak pressure, which comes out to ~33 lb/min. This is on a 2.0L block, AEB head with +1mm oversized valves, ER comp FMIC, 034 3" turbo-back exhaust, APR air box, 550cc injectors, and custom 034 wideband ME7 dyno tune. I'm not sure there is much more to be had. Maybe a nice intake manifold and some mild cams could eek out a little more, but I suspect that the F21 is turbine-limited, so looking at the compressor map alone may not tell the full story.



04VDubGLI said:


> :sly: I see something a good bit healthier than 260whp in that map. Just my .02  I'm not saying you shouldn't say it's estimated to be 260whp, I'm just saying that I wouldn't be surprised to see 10% more than that on a well setup car... maybe more if someone is seriously 1337?


----------



## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Nateness said:


> but I suspect that the F21 is turbine-limited, so looking at the compressor map alone may not tell the full story.


This. Regardless, impressive numbers for a K04-001esque turbo :thumbup:


----------



## HadeS (Jan 31, 2003)

Yesterday we finalise our F4T setup on our mk4 golf. Considering the car is fully swap to a mk1 TT quattro awd 180hp. It was impressive to see the traction control light up in second gear. Ok the -1 celsius Shure did play a role in it to on the sport 18" tires. But never the less a Nice setup for the buck. The MBC is place at 24psi and the tune is Uni stg2+ with Green Giants 440. Spool come in sooner than the k03s we suspect the highflow exhaust manifoild and larger TIP to play a rôle in That. But when is the Last Time putting a larger turbine ment faster spool?

We have some questions That you guy's might know the answer. 

We find the MBC engagement to be harsh. We tried using the n75 in parallèle but we get overboost if we stay over 22psi for a fiew secondes. Which is where the n75 seem to ne map for. Unitronic calls for a n75 plug only on the electrical connecter but not part of the boost controling setup. Franken recommend using both n75 and the MBC in parallèle. Of course we should follow the tuner setup. But should we drop the MBC at 22psi and keep the n75 or just accept the misfires style jerks of the MBC?

Secondly engine get 22psi at 6000rpm. But dosent want to rev any higher??? I should point out That the car was a narrow band O2 setup non VVT. We converted it to wide band and fooled the cam positioning sensor with a resistor. We have no engine code. But the setup should have a happy time up to 6900rpm... What going on?

Our first impression on this F4T setup is not huge power incrissed. It more of a snappier setup. More linear power output and wider power band. People looking for the explosive top end of a large frame turbo Will be disappointed. But if you dont want lag, dont want your boost to drop after 5500rpm. This is a great option. And there is no way a chipped k03/04 will flash the ASR on a clean shift half the second gear on a quattro car, in a straight line.


----------



## HadeS (Jan 31, 2003)

I Will have to Côme back on my "not huge power increase" opinion states before. Car was filled with 91oct. I did'nt get to Check ignition timing but the setup was shurely backing up on timing. 

After about 10km of tuning piston #3 quit its job. We got 2lbs of compression on the cylinder... We did'nt pût it appart yet but it look like piston ring. We dont think it cause by the new setup itself. Problably bad maintenance on past owner.


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

HadeS said:


> Yesterday we finalise our F4T setup on our mk4 golf. Considering the car is fully swap to a mk1 TT quattro awd 180hp. It was impressive to see the traction control light up in second gear. Ok the -1 celsius Shure did play a role in it to on the sport 18" tires. But never the less a Nice setup for the buck. The MBC is place at 24psi and the tune is Uni stg2+ with Green Giants 440. Spool come in sooner than the k03s we suspect the highflow exhaust manifoild and larger TIP to play a rôle in That. But when is the Last Time putting a larger turbine ment faster spool?
> 
> We have some questions That you guy's might know the answer.
> 
> ...


 are you using 440cc injectors with the Unitronic stage 2+ 415cc tune??(there frankenturbo stg 2+ tune ask for a 415cc injectors I believe


----------



## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

BR_337 said:


> are you using 440cc injectors with the Unitronic stage 2+ 415cc tune??(there frankenturbo stg 2+ tune ask for a 415cc injectors I believe


 The tune originally called for the 440cc "green giant" injectors. The tune also calls for 3bar pressure. The 440cc green giant injectors are 440cc at 4bar and 415 at 3bar. You can run either injector...


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Twopnt016v said:


> The tune originally called for the 440cc "green giant" injectors. The tune also calls for 3bar pressure. The 440cc green giant injectors are 440cc at 4bar and 415 at 3bar. You can run either injector...


 I see .. 
thanks


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 6, 2009)

Twopnt016v said:


> The tune originally called for the 440cc "green giant" injectors. The tune also calls for 3bar pressure. The 440cc green giant injectors are 440cc at 4bar and 415 at 3bar. You can run either injector...


HOWEVER, the 440cc green giants are NOT meant for multivalve engines. Their atomization and spray pattern will result in a not so smooth running engine. Not bad but far from optimal.


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## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> HOWEVER, the 440cc green giants are NOT meant for multivalve engines. Their atomization and spray pattern will result in a not so smooth running engine. Not bad but far from optimal.


 Meh...I will agree and disagree with you. The 415cc injectors would be better but I run the 440cc injectors and my car runs extremely smooth. So its a stretch to say your car will run "not so smooth". I've had the 440cc from before you guys were pushing the 415cc injectors, I would like to get some 415cc but I'm not gonna run out and buy some since I have other priorities for the car. I would like for you guys to post up some side by side injector videos. If I'm not mistaken you guys only have video of your injectors spray pattern not a side by side with a standard injector. I believe your injectors are better so it's not a question of that.:thumbup::beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Twopnt016v said:


> The tune originally called for the 440cc "green giant" injectors. The tune also calls for 3bar pressure. The 440cc green giant injectors are 440cc at 4bar and 415 at 3bar. You can run either injector...


 
 So if i run 440cc with the franken Unitronic stg 2+ that call for 415cc . 
does that mean it would be dumping more fuel ? 440 @ 4 bar ??:banghead:


----------



## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

BR_337 said:


> So if i run 440cc with the franken Unitronic stg 2+ that call for 415cc .
> does that mean it would be dumping more fuel ? 440 @ 4 bar ??:banghead:


 No you would be supplying the fuel that the tune calls for:thumbup:. Originally the Uni stage 2+ FT tune called for the 440cc injectors at 3 bar which supplies the same fuel as the 415cc at 3bar( the 440cc are only 440cc at 4bar not 3bar. If you don't have injectors I would say go with the 415cc injectors because they are a better injector(albeit more expensive). If you already have the 440cc injectors you will be fine...


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Twopnt016v said:


> No you would be supplying the fuel that the tune calls for:thumbup:. Originally the Uni stage 2+ FT tune called for the 440cc injectors at 3 bar which supplies the same fuel as the 415cc at 3bar( the 440cc are only 440cc at 4bar not 3bar. If you don't have injectors I would say go with the 415cc injectors because they are a better injector(albeit more expensive). If you already have the 440cc injectors you will be fine...


 Ahhn... now I get it 

you tha Man! thanks bro.:beer:


----------



## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

BR_337 said:


> Ahhn... now I get it
> 
> you tha Man! thanks bro.:beer:


 :beer:


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

*440cc Green Giants... 415cc Genesis... huh??*

Here's my synopsis of the FrankenTurbo/Genesis history 



I asked Unitronic to develop a Stage 2+ file based on the advertised flow rate of the Green Giants. I recommended them over the Genesis units because I feared the latter injectors ADVERTISED flow rate was insufficient 

Unitronic introduces Stage 2+ "for Green Giants" 

Scott at USRT spends part of an afternoon explaining his product line to me and offers a sample set of 415s for me to flowtest 

My independent testing shows that the Genesis injectors flow at the same rate as Green Giants. THE SAME at THE SAME pressure. 

Unitronic asks me for a test kit for our longitudinal turbo. They develop a software file, this time using Genesis injectors. 

I meet with Unitronic reps at Waterfest to discuss the upcomong Stage 2+ for longitudinal. They tell me they prefer the Genesis units, and I support that decision now that I know they flow adequately. 

Unitronic introduces Stage 2+ for longitudinal, with the Genesis 415s as the supported injector. 

 

Ultimately, I don't know the ins-and-outs of spray patterns. But Unitronic judged the Genesis units to be better. They were developed for the 1.8T motor, they fit, and they spray optimally. This isn't to say the Green Giants are a poor choice. They're a second choice.


----------



## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Here's my synopsis of the FrankenTurbo/Genesis history
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Well said Doug:thumbup::beer:


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## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Here's my synopsis of the FrankenTurbo/Genesis history
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 wow :thumbup:


----------



## taverncustoms (Feb 18, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Here's my synopsis of the FrankenTurbo/Genesis history
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 stop it your getting me all excited, just ordered my 415cc injectors


----------



## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

Received my F21T upgrade CHRA from Doug earlier in the week, looks nice, thanks Doug, 
look forward to fitting this sometime in 2013. Many thanks again Doug. 

Regards Lenny


----------



## HadeS (Jan 31, 2003)

We had the 415 VS 440 dilema. We opted for the Green giant because Sandy had just recked havoc and we where afraid of shipping delays. While de Green giant are a OEM application That we could easily source from a local source. Since a fiew weeks after our choice Unitronic started selling them. Since there head quarter are 30min from our shop. We would have gone with the genesis. Then again if we had started our project a fiew weeks later we would also had the F21... 

On monday morning we Will started by pulling the head off to see the extent of the damage. We have a tt225 block lying around. We Will be refreshing it before dropping it in and since the head Will be apart. We Will install the VVt completing the conversion to wideband. Once back to testing we could post. G/s and timing pull. Wich Will give an idea on how the Green giant are performing.


----------



## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

HadeS said:


> We had the 415 VS 440 dilema. We opted for the Green giant because Sandy had just recked havoc and we where afraid of shipping delays. While de Green giant are a OEM application That we could easily source from a local source. Since a fiew weeks after our choice Unitronic started selling them. Since there head quarter are 30min from our shop. We would have gone with the genesis. Then again if we had started our project a fiew weeks later we would also had the F21...
> 
> On monday morning we Will started by pulling the head off to see the extent of the damage. We have a tt225 block lying around. We Will be refreshing it before dropping it in and since the head Will be apart. We Will install the VVt completing the conversion to wideband. Once back to testing we could post. G/s and timing pull. Wich Will give an idea on how the Green giant are performing.


 Hopefully your doing something about upgrading intercooling or those timing pull numbers aren't gonna look that great. The Frankenturbos spit hot fire...


----------



## HadeS (Jan 31, 2003)

The car already got a front mount intercooler and a home made 3" downpipe and 1 range colder sparkplugs. Also with the différent info we got during the week. We Will settled on 22psi on 93oct. Unitronic told us That 24psi was the upper limit of 93oct. Higher than That and race gaz and chemical intercooling was needed. I wonder was other F4H-T owner have settle pressure wise and what oct. level there using?


----------



## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

HadeS said:


> The car already got a front mount intercooler and a home made 3" downpipe and 1 range colder sparkplugs. Also with the différent info we got during the week. We Will settled on 22psi on 93oct. Unitronic told us That 24psi was the upper limit of 93oct. Higher than That and race gaz and chemical intercooling was needed. I wonder was other F4H-T owner have settle pressure wise and what oct. level there using?


 25psi, 93oct, large port head, 8* advance in unisettings, upgraded side mount and chemical intercooling here with almost zero timing pull. About to direct port water inject as soon as i make some time to drill and tap my intake manifold...:thumbup: Makes for a very fun car...:wave:


----------



## BR_337 (Sep 3, 2011)

Twopnt016v said:


> 25psi, 93oct, large port head, 8* advance in unisettings, upgraded side mount and chemical intercooling here with almost zero timing pull. About to direct port water inject as soon as i make some time to drill and tap my intake manifold...:thumbup: Makes for a very fun car...:wave:


 :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Twopnt016v said:


> 25psi, 93oct, large port head, 8* advance in unisettings, upgraded side mount and chemical intercooling here with almost zero timing pull. About to direct port water inject as soon as i make some time to drill and tap my intake manifold...:thumbup: Makes for a very fun car...:wave:


 This is with the F4, right? Thing must be an absolute blast either way :thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Twopnt016v (Jul 5, 2009)

suffocatemymind said:


> This is with the F4, right? Thing must be an absolute blast either way :thumbup::thumbup:


 Yes sir F4T...


----------



## formerly silveratljetta (Feb 6, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> For the record, I'm pretty skeptical that the 20mm wrist pin rods are stronger in a meaningful way. Yes, they're beefier at the piston bushing. But otherwise, they're pretty much the same. For that reason, I encourage F23 customers with any 1.8T to invest in strengthened connecting rods.
> 
> It's pretty simple really:
> 
> ...


 The earlier 16V 20mm rods are factory forged unlike the later 19mm versions that are not factory forged. I ran 260WHP on a 2871R using those 16V rods for awhile.


----------



## Teh_Chris (Dec 31, 2007)

Twopnt016v said:


> 25psi, 93oct, large port head, 8* advance in unisettings, upgraded side mount and chemical intercooling here with almost zero timing pull. About to direct port water inject as soon as i make some time to drill and tap my intake manifold...:thumbup: Makes for a very fun car...:wave:


 i bet  :thumbup:


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

*Dyno Dynamics results*

A FrankenFriend posted this dyno to our facebook page. Thought, I dunno, I'd share it here too:











Specs for the car (per the owner):

Stock internals
Forge dv
No ac
No ps
Cold air intake 
New south power gasket
Fmic kit
Deleted evap/combi/n249
3" turbo back, no cat
550cc injectors (440 is a typo)
Walbro 255 inline pump 
F21 kit
Custom tune locally


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

:thumbup::thumbup::beer:


----------



## Alec's TT (Jan 28, 2013)

So glad i seen this! Last night i was looking for a f4t and couldnt find it! I was afraid Doug quit making them! My fmic gets here tomorrow and Franken is the next part of the puzzle!


----------



## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

If that's WHP; that's pretty good on a dynodynamics


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Are we 'mericans or not? Of course that's wheel horsepower.


----------



## RodgertheRabit II (Sep 13, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Are we 'mericans or not? Of course that's wheel horsepower.


what psi was that at?


----------



## Rod Ratio (Jun 6, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> Are we 'mericans or not? Of course that's wheel horsepower.


Whatever cool guy. You didn't have an attitude when you were trolling this forum for over a year advertising without paying.  

Either way; it's nice to see pump gas numbers in lieu of 'windshield washer nitrous'...


----------



## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

Results from last Sat 2/2/2013 RR day, with F4T-h

257 BHP and 306 torque all at flywheel

Regards Lenny


----------



## goscha7452 (Jun 9, 2011)

leonardodecappiccuno said:


> Results from last Sat 2/2/2013 RR day, with F4T-h
> 
> 257 BHP and 306 torque all at flywheel
> 
> Regards Lenny


WHP??? :facepalm:


----------



## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

FWHP!?!!


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

Ok, my BHP/torque are taken at the crank/flywheel, is that a strange thing for you USA/CAN.
So my 257 BHP equates to roughly 232 ish at the wheels 

Regards Lenny


----------



## goscha7452 (Jun 9, 2011)

leonardodecappiccuno said:


> Ok, my BHP/torque are taken at the crank/flywheel, is that a strange thing for you USA/CAN.
> So my 257 BHP equates to roughly 232 ish at the wheels
> 
> Regards Lenny


Roughly 213 I believe... Correct me if I'm wrong but whp is 83% +\- a few hp on a front wheel drive car


----------



## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

Ok one of the few RR graphs that I have that shows both wheel and crank BHP, crank BHP 250.9
at 5,180 rpm, while wheel was 228.5 BHP at same RPM, so my rough estimate for 257 BHP to
231/2 BHP seems not far off the mark !!

Regards Lenny

ps results via Dastek dynamometer


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## goscha7452 (Jun 9, 2011)

leonardodecappiccuno said:


> Ok one of the few RR graphs that I have that shows both wheel and crank BHP, crank BHP 250.9
> at 5,180 rpm, while wheel was 228.5 BHP at same RPM, so my rough estimate for 257 BHP to
> 231/2 BHP seems not far off the mark !!
> 
> ...


Pics or it didn't happen... 11.09% loss?


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

goscha7452 said:


> Pics or it didn't happen... 11.09% loss?


IIRC 12% is what APTuning told me they use for FWD manuel.


----------



## goscha7452 (Jun 9, 2011)

TooLFan46n2 said:


> IIRC 12% is what APTuning told me they use for FWD manuel.


Meh... either way I'm curious how CHP was determined on this car.


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## leonardodecappiccuno (Oct 17, 2008)

goscha7452 said:


> Pics or it didn't happen... 11.09% loss?


Ok these are the RR print outs, sorry for the poor quality, first one is from 2/2/2013
and the second is the one with both wheel/crank BHP, taken a few years ago









Regards Lenny

ps the Bug had work carried out between, both mechanical and software


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## FallinApartBoy (Sep 30, 2006)

i got my F21 installed this week. 2001 beetle AWV engine with a 6 speed swap. 550cc genesis injectors on the 3bar fpr, 3" MAF, 3" downpipe, samco intercooler piping with a tyrolsport upgraded side mount intercooler, and some other minor mods i wont go into full detail.

the bad: i had a bad PCV valve shooting a lot of smoke out of the exhaust along with oil so if you do a turbo install of any kind i suggest checking this before or after the install to make sure all is good (makes it look like the turbo is bad when it may not be). also i had some coolant air pockets so make sure you get plenty of coolant flow before you take it out also. dont want to overheat the new turbo now do we?

the good: the turbo sounds amazing so far. i love it. probably the best thing i have done to the car so far. i will post some times when i get it to the track. still in the middle of having motoza perfomance tune it. only on the first file and it already pulls much better than it ever has and sounds much better also. Doug has been really easy to work with and walk me through any help that i have needed. he made sure i was satisfied with everything and responded back to every email very quickly.

to sum it all up i would say the turbo is well worth $1200. i wish i would have done this a long time ago honestly. i almost went KKK K04 and i am so glad i didnt. performance and sound alone make it worth it. plus its new and has a 2 year chra warranty. cant beat that. plus its just great to pull up next to people in a beetle and show them what my rear bumper looks like....from a distance of course. make those mustangs and camaros think twice about calling it a girls car.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

FallinApartBoy said:


> i got my F21 installed this week. 2001 beetle AWV engine with a 6 speed swap. 550cc genesis injectors on the 3bar fpr, 3" MAF, 3" downpipe, samco intercooler piping with a tyrolsport upgraded side mount intercooler, and some other minor mods i wont go into full detail.
> 
> the bad: i had a bad PCV valve shooting a lot of smoke out of the exhaust along with oil so if you do a turbo install of any kind i suggest checking this before or after the install to make sure all is good (makes it look like the turbo is bad when it may not be). also i had some coolant air pockets so make sure you get plenty of coolant flow before you take it out also. dont want to overheat the new turbo now do we?
> 
> ...


You say $1200, but that's not completely true. Yes the turbo costs $1200, but how much did it cost for the tune and injectors to go with it? Give a Total price of modification otherwise you're making people think $1200 will cover it all. 

As for the dyne of 228whp what is that??? I made more than that on a K03S, I actually made about the same WHP as you made BHP on a K04-001 (RP at that :banghead I made 253whp to your 250BHP... 

So far this F21 thing looks like it can't even outperform a K04-001.


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## groggory (Apr 21, 2003)

DMVDUB said:


> You say $1200, but that's not completely true. Yes the turbo costs $1200, but how much did it cost for the tune and injectors to go with it? Give a Total price of modification otherwise you're making people think $1200 will cover it all.
> 
> As for the dyne of 228whp what is that??? I made more than that on a K03S, I actually made about the same WHP as you made BHP on a K04-001 (RP at that :banghead I made 253whp to your 250BHP...
> 
> So far this F21 thing looks like it can't even outperform a K04-001.


Re: $1200 turbo: Most people misquote costs when it comes to builds. They quote a small piece of the parts cost instead of the overall build cost. No big deal. Pretty typical.

Re: 228whp dyno
I bet with some tweaks it could be bumped up further. This is just a guy who installed a kit, threw it on the dyno, and saw what happened. Don't give the guy a hard time. If anything, offer to read his logs, help him with unitweak, and see how far you get his setup to go.


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## War Machine (Jun 30, 2011)

All in all, my F21 swap cost me about $2500-$2700

Turbo and stuff = $1200
Tuning/ME7 swap = $1000
Injectors/pump =$360
Misc stuff, days off work, etc.

Made 262whp/290lbs

Once it was all said and done, I should have gone 28RS. Great turbo and product from doug though, never had any issues


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## FallinApartBoy (Sep 30, 2006)

yes sorry thats what i meant was $1200 for the turbo. i also added a k&n from ebay (china) for like $25, got the injectors with adapters, spark plugs, and turbo install kit from ecstuning for around $300 total. tuning from motoza was around $500. Coolant from vw for $30 and i wont count the oil since its a normal change. so i would say total was a little around $2200 installed myself. does that sound better? still for a $1200 turbo it is well worth it to be able to bolt it up directly with no modifications to exhaust or intercooler piping.


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## Brake Weight (Jul 27, 2006)

Put the F21 dyno chart next to a K04 dyno and see where the power is? Top end vs. mid range I think.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

DMVDUB said:


> So far this F21 thing looks like it can't even outperform a K04-001.


It looks as though somebody from Gonzo Tuning needs a refresher on what's possible via a reputable tuner. I'll repeat the first post:



[email protected] said:


> ..
> 
> Now $999 for base kit of turbo, ceramic-coated manifold & inlet pipe​


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

War Machine said:


> All in all, my F21 swap cost me about $2500-$2700
> 
> Turbo and stuff = $1200
> Tuning/ME7 swap = $1000
> ...


This is what I was talking about. 262whp is respectable. 
But letting people think that all you need is the kit is misleading, hence why I mentioned it.


Groggory,
I wasn't trying to bash the guy just stating something is wrong with that picture. I don't want to see someone put $2200 into a kit and not make $2200 worth of performance. 

FallinApartBoy,
Glad you're happy with the kit. I've just started getting annoyed when people don't post the entire cost of a build (not your fault). It just gives the unknowing person the wrong impression.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> It looks as though somebody from Gonzo Tuning needs a refresher on what's possible via a reputable tuner. I'll repeat the first post:


Because Chris Tapp's car is comparable to other people's cars.:facepalm:


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## War Machine (Jun 30, 2011)

DMVDUB said:


> This is what I was talking about. 262whp is respectable.
> But letting people think that all you need is the kit is misleading, hence why I mentioned it.
> 
> 
> ...


Not to mention I had pretty much every bolt on besides W/M

3" exhaust
FMIC
Intake
Deleted A/C and Powersteering
Newsouth Power gasket
DV

yada yada, that stuff was already on BEFORE the $2500ish upgrade lol


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

War Machine said:


> Not to mention I had pretty much every bolt on besides W/M
> 
> 3" exhaust
> FMIC
> ...


What's your dyno looking like fully "bolt on'd"


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Mods: I want a lid put on the nonsense being posted in here by my competitor. This is a commercial thread for a $999 turbocharger kit. If Gonzo wants a debate about the value of this product, *versus their own*, they have their own forum for that discussion.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Mods: I want a lid put on the nonsense being posted in here by my competitor. This is a commercial thread for a $999 turbocharger kit. If Gonzo wants a debate about the value of this product, *versus their own*, they have their own forum for that discussion.


I no longer sell Gonzo tunes, therefore I'm not your competitor. I'm interested to see what his car does compared to mine since we have similar mods.


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## War Machine (Jun 30, 2011)

DMVDUB said:


> What's your dyno looking like fully "bolt on'd"


The 262whp was with everything on with the F21.

On my K03S I was making 210whp 230lbs.


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

War Machine said:


> The 262whp was with everything on with the F21.
> 
> On my K03S I was making 210whp 230lbs.


Nice :thumbup:


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## 18T_BT (Sep 15, 2005)

JohnnyLlama. said:


> DMVDUB is not affiliated with Gonzo Tuning. I can confirm nobody on this forum is on Gonzo Tuning payroll.
> 
> Sorry for the inconvenience.



Aren't you on Gonzo Tuning payroll?


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## Vegeta Gti (Feb 13, 2003)

fuk..someone put me on a payroll!!:beer:


if i want a 300whp car, i want to make it with ease. i wouldn't do with a k04xxx whatever hybrid whatever.

i woudl do a T25 or T3 gt whatever. that gx 2863 is amazing...damn near the same spool yet...if you do the bottom end...you may as well be able to turn it up if you want. so a solid 250 daily then click click click...300+whp.

hardware always needs to be upgraded. why not agree that the part can be improved upon.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Time to refresh this thread with some solid data logs from a customer running our F21T turbo kit on Eurodyne's Maestro. Here's a look:











With solid software like that, it's no wonder the F21T can put up numbers like these:











The base kit of F21T turbo, ceramic-coated manifold & custom inlet pipe is still just $999.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> ..
> 
> Now $999 for base kit of turbo, ceramic-coated manifold & inlet pipe​


Seemed worthy of repeating.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

*Eurodyne Maestro with Water Meth injection data logs*

A Maestro user running our F21T with water meth injection sent along these logs. Thought they look good enough to share here. Timing advance is especially good at this boost level.



















































For pricing and product information, simply follow this link: http://frankenturbo.com/new/F21T.html


:thumbup:


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Those logs from Joe? Data looks identical.

Because that's my tuning.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

The logs are from a customer of one of our overseas dealers. So it's possible the car owner is named Joe. But I'm curious to know more about what you mean by "that's my tuning".


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

I tuned it, via email. I recognized the data. And the customer is from Lebanon. I believe he also emailed you with a friend's logs regarding the amscaling C2 does to "tune" an engine

I believe that timing was from his 9th revision.


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

Nice work Dave! What's he using for injectors? Also, did maxing out WG duty earlier in the revs cause boost fluctuations (I see that you capped it at 91ish)? Just curious...seems on the laggier side for a stock frame turbo (not knocking your tune whatsoever by the way :thumbup.

Edit: I guess it's not THAT laggy, especially if it's a rod-safe file


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

suffocatemymind said:


> Edit: I guess it's not THAT laggy, especially if it's a rod-safe file


Boost onset in these graphs looks a touch laggy for an F21, actually. Timing advance through that rev range is pretty modest, so it's not owing to that. I'm not so sure what ambient temps were or the gear being used. What interests me more is the choice of MAF specification. I'm told the car is running a stock 1.8T sensor in a very big R32 housing. Maestro has no pre-set for that, so I'm curious to know what you did there.

FYI, I have a Maestro flowmeter map for the wideband -049 sensor in the 76mm housing. I've used it while tuning a handful of F23 customers. If you want it for use in Maestro, email me to request it.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

The boost onset is a function of timing. At a very low advance during spool (3-4*) it lit about 300rpm faster, but a little bump in timing lead to positive claims from the owner. 

Owner told me 3.5" MAF size (not R32 specific), but I eventually scaled it back to some where around 76-78mm (R32 MAF 3.25"=79mm) based on 02 corrections. MAF scaling seems to be pretty accurate, I would say withing 5-10 g/s? Either way load values seem to be on par.

Ambient temps where the owner lives averages 75*-80* F right now.

Scaling for various MAF sizes is pretty simple using cross sectional area formulas and offsetting it correctly.

Right now it maxes out around 245 g/s. Doug what is the highest you have seen these little F21s push?

Either way its going on a Mustang Dyno Monday, so we will see what happens.


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## Sim (Jun 27, 2002)

lotsa timing up above for pump gas (even with w/m) imho

EDIT: why dont you let the N75 to go higher than the 91% to help match requested boost? may not match (i admit), but maybe would help a bit


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

Current revision it does, but the turbo is at its limit with minimal change.

Timing should be pretty close to its limit based on time-to-speed graphs.

With good intercooling (no WMI) and good tuning an F21 should see 12-15psi with minimal timing pull.

02 corrections will be fixed in the final file as well. The owner was having issues with a wee bit too much meth drowning out the 02 sensor and the ECU shutting off corrections (with a CEL as a result). I think since then it's been fixed, but I will still keep corrections to around -3% so in the event it happens again it will deviate rich.

Here's an IAT graph prior to WMI


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## Sim (Jun 27, 2002)

Btw: where is the wmi nozzle located? If it is too close to the IAT sensor, it may give (false) lower readings. Thats what i experienced.


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## Joe_Anni (Aug 20, 2014)

Hi Guys, 

Yes these are my logs posted from Doug and tuned by Dave… I got this F21 kit from LEBMK4GTI (i paid 1100$ for it thought) but i guess shipping this kit here was about 150$ so that's ok, and Dave tune it for me.. I am so happy with the tune and I sent the logs to Fouad so I guess he forwarded them to Doug!! Lol

The car pull really strong and on Monday I have booked for dyno session on Mustang… before the wmi I couldn't have timing more than 14* but after I bought the wmi from fouad too I have around 33° IAT and I have a current logs where timing is at 25~26° and guess what KW are 0… 

About being a bit laggy, well it is right even though I have drop in IE rods so the file shouldn't be rods safe file… Lebmk4gti had a 3"MAF but I guess I got a 3.25" housing by mistake but Dave calibrated it well… I am so happy with the tune and I recommend Dave for any tune… 

After I finalize the dyno and file I will post them here… 

Cheers,


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## Joe_Anni (Aug 20, 2014)

Sim said:


> Btw: where is the wmi nozzle located? If it is too close to the IAT sensor, it may give (false) lower readings. Thats what i experienced.


The wmi kit I got has dual nozzles 175cc post FMIC and 60cc post TB in a spacer… pump pressure is set to 170psi as requestedby [email protected]… can u imagine this WMI from USRT??? I had IAT around 66° before now after the WM I have 32~34°!!! That is crazy!!!


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## Sim (Jun 27, 2002)

My IATs will not exceed 40c without wmi. 66c is like a k03 with the stock smic.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Dave926 said:


> The boost onset is a function of timing. At a very low advance during spool (3-4*) it lit about 300rpm faster, but a little bump in timing lead to positive claims from the owner.


You're right. While tuning it this way looks less good on paper (to a turbo seller, anyway), ignition advance trumps boost.



Dave926 said:


> Owner told me 3.5" MAF size (not R32 specific), but I eventually scaled it back to some where around 76-78mm (R32 MAF 3.25"=79mm) based on 02 corrections. MAF scaling seems to be pretty accurate, I would say withing 5-10 g/s? Either way load values seem to be on par.
> 
> Scaling for various MAF sizes is pretty simple using cross sectional area formulas and offsetting it correctly.
> 
> Right now it maxes out around 245 g/s. Doug what is the highest you have seen these little F21s push?


245 grams/second is a touch high. But by no more than 5-7% I'd say. Based on the boost you're getting I'd reckon the car is flowing ~230. For the record, though, here are some dimensions for commonly used MAF housings:

Stock: 63mm
TT225: 70mm
S4: 73mm
R32: 76mm

These measurements are all INSIDE dimensions.

Another complicating factor is that narrow-band cars such as the S4 and AMU-engine TT225 use a sensor with a narrower measurement gamut. So you can't really extrapolate values between the MAFs based on housing sizes only. The sensors themselves differ too.



Sim said:


> EDIT: why dont you let the N75 to go higher than the 91% to help match requested boost? may not match (i admit), but maybe would help a bit


See above for my point of view. Timing is king.



Joe_Anni said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Yes these are my logs posted from Doug and tuned by Dave
> About being a bit laggy, well it is right even though I have drop in IE rods so the file shouldn't be rods safe file… Lebmk4gti had a 3"MAF but I guess I got a 3.25" housing by mistake but Dave calibrated it well… I am so happy with the tune and I recommend Dave for any tune…
> ...


I'm pretty sure he's got the R32 housing. That combined with the -049 sensor is a good fit for any 220+ grams/second setup.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

MAF reading probably is pretty close. Power numbers seem to jive

Rest of the mods are

Integrated Rods
Snow Performance Stage 2 with Dual Nozzle upgrade.
FMIC (unknown brand)
3" Exhaust

Made 285whp/289wtq
Not sure how engine figures are calculated


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

That's damn good tuning, Dave. I don't think I know of any F21-series turbo that's done better. Congrats to you and our dealer in Lebanon.

dh


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

A customer of our dealer C2Motorsports France just sent us this dyno sheet. Here are the car's specs:



> My ex set-up, f21, maf air flow s3, bosch 550cc, pump walbro 255... E85 and wmi... Remap C2motorsport France












:thumbup:


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## DMVDUB (Jan 11, 2010)

:facepalm: E85 + Meth and not breaking 300whp.... :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Dave's tune is good, this C2 crap is pathetic. 

Dave's getting the same numbers out of Fouad's car with much less mods. opcorn:


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## suffocatemymind (Dec 10, 2007)

DMVDUB said:


> Dave's getting the same numbers out of Fouad's car with much less mods. opcorn:


The only different power adder between the two is e85.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

DMVDUB said:


> :facepalm: E85 + Meth and not breaking 300whp.... :laugh::laugh::laugh:
> 
> Dave's tune is good, this C2 crap is pathetic.
> 
> Dave's getting the same numbers out of Fouad's car with much less mods. opcorn:


Let's keep things objective for a quick second. In the another thread recently posted, the dyno is to blame for high numbers. In this instance the tuner is called into question for low numbers?

Not saying you are wrong DMVDUB. One would expect more out of the turbo with e85 and meth, however there are many things we don't know such as boost levels, timing, the type of dyno, corrections, european e85(I was under the impression the EU was against e85)... The list goes on. 

We also have to keep in mind that dynos are tuning tools and that any two dyno systems can and most likely will have some degree of variance.


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## Dave926 (Mar 30, 2005)

The above dyno is done in PS, so converted over the horsepower is more or less identical. 

Wee bit more torque but otherwise the difference is power is within 5%.

At current power levels, I think 300whp is a stretch and something that might take a little dyno time to reach. 

My only beef with C2 is the stupid scaling they do with MAFs (but maybe not the above tune with S3 MAF) that makes them under report airflow values. I can post logs from another user of this ****.


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## DavidG60 (Dec 20, 2005)

DMVDUB said:


> :facepalm: E85 + Meth and not breaking 300whp.... :laugh::laugh::laugh:
> 
> Dave's tune is good, this C2 crap is pathetic.
> 
> Dave's getting the same numbers out of Fouad's car with much less mods. opcorn:


You have no idea about what you are speaking about... But this is not preventing you to detract others.

Here is some additionnal data to consider:
The car was running the stock seat ibiza 6K 2.25" catback.
It was running 19psi of boost, which is not where you see the most on this turbo.
MAF values were ~225g/s, so not underscaled...
The rest of the setup is very basic, stock engine.

Also, understand that watermeth was only used to reduce IAT.
You should know that running watermeth over E85 does not have the same effect than on pump gas.
You can't just say watermeth gives +10% power, and E85 gives +10%, both are giving +20%. That's wrong.


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## spartiati (May 19, 2008)

DavidG60 said:


> You have no idea about what you are speaking about... But this is not preventing you to detract others.
> 
> Here is some additionnal data to consider:
> The car was running the stock seat ibiza 6K 2.25" catback.
> ...



That explains a lot. Lots of power to be had with a full exhaust. Good numbers with just that though.


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## [email protected] (Jul 1, 2009)

Why not stock this thread with some fresh numbers from a DynoJet:











So the scoring card reads:


Mustang dyno: 261whp
Dyno Dynamics dyno: 261whp
DynoJet dyno: 276whp


Not bad for a kit costing less than a grand. So says FrankenTurbo.


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## Humb1e (Jan 19, 2012)

Just want to give a shout out to [email protected] for his excellent customer service! Any day of the week he is there for you!


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