# MK4 Golf VR Brakes Issue



## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

Sorry if I'm not supposed to post here and MKIV forum also, but I'm getting kinda desperate.

I just bought this 2003 VR two months ago. It has 85K. I noticed the issue right off, but thought it was pads.
When you step on the brakes, the pedal is firm and does not fade. Problem is, the car doesn't stop well. 
It brakes consistently. It brakes straight. It doesn't make noises. I just doesn't stop well. 

When I got it home, I examined the system. The rears are fine.

The issue is up front, solely. Basically, the front part of the system is operating at 50% capacity.
I pulled the front brakes and noted the inner pads on both fronts were like new while the outers were worn 50%.
I noted the inner surface of both front rotors was a rusted mess. The outers looked fine.
This is strange because the common symptom is the OPPOSITE of this and caused by corroded slides.
So why is it that my inner pads, the ones which rest directly on the caliper piston, are not working?

I replaced the pads and rotors and the issue is still the same.
The pistons seemed fine. They retracted normally and bedded the brakes after the install.
I noted no leaks in the sytem. The fluid level is normal.

What else is there? The Master, the booster, bad vacuum, bad calipers(BOTH? really?), bad lines or leaks . . . ? 
Generally, a bad master is manifested by a sloppy pedal, which I don't have.
Generally, a bad booster causes a rock hard pedal(which I kinda have) and loss of braking(which definitely I have).
Generally, a bad caliper becomes obvious when you do the brakes. It won't move. Mine seemed fine. Calipers are expensive. Even the rebuild kit isn't that cheap.

Maybe I'm not making enough pressure?
The booster definitely makes pressure. The booster also holds pressure.
I examined the vacuum line and the check. Unfortuantely, they're fine. When I pulled the line, I got a health POP, indicating once more, the booster is making and holding pressure.
I have yet to measure vacuum(I need to buy a gauge).

I wanted to do SS lines and flush the system anyway.
Before I go ahead and buy/install a new booster or master cylinder, I'd like to have an inkling that it's going to work. 

Right now I'm thinking, maybe do the lines and the master then flush the system. I just don't want to go thru this 2x.
TomJV


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

Yup, that's weird.

Lack of pressure doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Do some two person diagnosis. Have someone in the car press the pedal and investigate - make sure they're clamping the rotors. Is it a rusted mess from inside to outside (radially, on the inside), if its even, hell if i know. How shot are the caliper bushings, are the slide pins straight?


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

KG18t said:


> Yup, that's weird.
> 
> Lack of pressure doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Do some two person diagnosis. Have someone in the car press the pedal and investigate - make sure they're clamping the rotors. Is it a rusted mess from inside to outside (radially, on the inside), if its even, hell if i know. How shot are the caliper bushings, are the slide pins straight?


Thanks for the reply.

What are caliper bushings?
I THINK the slide pins are fine. They loosened and spun freely when changing the pads.
Funny, because the inside is not grabbing.

I was gonna take the pads off and maybe file the edges a tiny bit to ensure they're not binding on the side.
Also, on some Dubs I've had, there was a SS shim on the caliper slide. These don't have it. The dealer says it's not supposed to. The pads rest right on the caliper slide.

TomJV

This is the inside of one rotor. There's not much braking going on there. The other was the same or worse.
The outsides were both fine.


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

Given that pic - I'd look to your binding idea, make sure the pad backings can slide on the carrier properly.

By bushings - the rubber that the slide pins go through.


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*bushings*



KG18t said:


> Given that pic - I'd look to your binding idea, make sure the pad backings can slide on the carrier properly.
> 
> By bushings - the rubber that the slide pins go through.


OK, got ya. Can you tell me how they are removed? I'm thinking about doing the steel ones. I want to get the "weak brakes" thing squared away first.
TomJV


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## GasInMyVeins (Jul 11, 2010)

This is how to install the metal bushings, but even if you don't go that route, it's a good explanation on taking it all apart.

http://www.tyrolsport.com/product_inst/Install%20Directions%20Brake%20Bushings.pdf


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*update*

I'm working on my 2003 VR Golf. The front brakes are not working properly. You have to press too hard to stop and the car swerves(not pulls, more like a fishtail). The pedal is firm(normal). It holds pressure(does not fade). The vacuum booster makes pressure on start up, holds pressure on shut down.

Last week I changed the front rotors and pads. Both inboard rotors were rusted(very little pad contact. This is the problem!) I bedded the crap out of those pads. Issue persists. 
Yesterday I rebuilt the calipers. They were not in such bad shape, so I'm NOT very hopeful. 
Anyway, afterwards I used the Motive to change the fluid. I've done this before and regard it as a routine job. I didn't do the slave. I didn't do the ABS. (Doesn't matter. Next week I'm doing SS lines, so I'll be back . . .)

It's been pouring rain, so I didn't want to take the car out to test drive it. Frankly, I don't think the problem is fixed.

The question is, what is the proper way to bleed the ABS and slave? I've been reading and checked with VCDS and I'm confused about a couple of things.

Is the slave done first? Under Motive pressure? Didn't I read here, that guys just open and gravity drain it? Do I have to pump the pedal?

Next, I gather the ABS is cycled. Ross says cycle it, then you're done and can continue with normal bleeding(via Motive).
What about all this I'm reading about opening both front bleeders and pumping the pedal . . . ? If so, just how is this done?

I have these cheesy Chinese axles in the car. Could they be affecting the brake system?
TomJV


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## tongsli (Jan 21, 2002)

tomjv said:


> I'm working on my 2003 VR Golf. The front brakes are not working properly. You have to press too hard to stop and the car swerves(not pulls, more like a fishtail). The pedal is firm(normal). It holds pressure(does not fade). The vacuum booster makes pressure on start up, holds pressure on shut down.
> 
> Last week I changed the front rotors and pads. Both inboard rotors were rusted(very little pad contact. This is the problem!) I bedded the crap out of those pads. Issue persists.
> Yesterday I rebuilt the calipers. They were not in such bad shape, so I'm NOT very hopeful.
> ...


Make sure the vacuum hose to the brake booster grommet is not leaking. I assume you cleaned the calipers and the pads portion that slides along the caliper?


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

tongsli said:


> Make sure the vacuum hose to the brake booster grommet is not leaking. I assume you cleaned the calipers and the pads portion that slides along the caliper?


Yeah, the fronts are "textbook". I had them all apart. I put everything on the wire wheel. I rebuilt the calipers. I flushed the system. I took it out for a ride yesterday and it's the same or worse. 

All I can think of a couple things:
1. Air in ABS or MS - but that would be a spongy pedal, right? Pedal's firm. Got no ABS light or faults upon scanning.

2. Bad MS! - Somehow, one circuit is not working. This would explain the fish-tailing and weak stopping power. Under certain conditions(like cornering) the car pulls to one side. Straight line braking holds a good line. Does NOT explain odd front rotor/pad wear.

3. Bad Power Booster - I got vacuum. The pedal makes pressure when starting the car. The pedal holds pressure when shutting down. I don't hear any hissing. I really don't want to change a vacuum booster . . . ; (

TomJV


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## GasInMyVeins (Jul 11, 2010)

tomjv said:


> 2. Bad MS! - Somehow, one circuit is not working. This would explain the fish-tailing and weak stopping power. Under certain conditions(like cornering) the car pulls to one side. Straight line braking holds a good line. Does NOT explain odd front rotor/pad wear.


That makes a decent amount of sense, actually. Similarly, it could be an issue with the ABS module.


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## racerpoet (Apr 20, 2013)

It still sounds like a booster/vacuum issue to me. I know you say that you have vacuum. But you also say you have a "firm" pedal. What happens if you start the car and pump the pedal a few times? Does it feel any different? What if you block off or clamp the vacuum line to the booster. Drive it, any different?


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## racerpoet (Apr 20, 2013)

It still sounds like a booster/vacuum issue to me. I know you say that you have vacuum. But you also say you have a "firm" pedal. What happens if you start the car and pump the pedal a few times? Does it feel any different after pumping it a few times? What if you block off, take off or clamp the vacuum line to the booster. Drive it. Does braking feel any different?


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*weak brakes*



racerpoet said:


> It still sounds like a booster/vacuum issue to me. I know you say that you have vacuum. But you also say you have a "firm" pedal. What happens if you start the car and pump the pedal a few times? Does it feel any different? What if you block off or clamp the vacuum line to the booster. Drive it, any different?


Thanks for the reply!

The first thing I though of was vacuum booster. I did the two tests. 
1. With the car not running, pump the pedal a couple of times. It gets hard(no boost). 
Then, hold foot on pedal and start the car. The pedal will drop a bit then stop. Booster working.
2. With the car running, tap the pedal to confirm boost. Shut motor. Tap pedal 1 to 3 times and note normal to stiffer pedal.
This is the stored boost running down. System normal.

I haven't tried this but I think if I clamped off that line, the car would be REALLY hard to stop, like undrivable hard.

I'm going to install the Tyrol Sport steel bushings and SS Brake lines this week, then go from there.

I'm hoping it's the bushings. When I rebuilt the calipers, I noted a couple of them were really soft. It appeared to be a fluid leak.
I dismissed it because the bushings (in my mind) assist the outer pad alignment. Maybe I'm wrong here. Maybe the two work in concert and if one's off, they're both off. ? I could have done OEM rubbers, but I always wanted the Tyrols anyway. If they're great, I'll put them in my other VR too.

As for the leak, I'm thinking it could be a bad washer on a brake line. I had to clean a bunch of gunk off one of the calipers. The new lines should fix this. After testing the car, I noted just a tiny bit of wet near the hose connection. Couldn't tell if it was just drips from bleeding or if the washer was leaking. . . . Just a tiny bit.

So, I'm praying it's NOT the MS, Booster or ABS, but that's all that's left!
FWIW, my mech thought they were "ok, but a little weak". Honestly, I don't think those guys get out enough(on the road, I mean). LOL. He suggested more aggressive bedding. And he may be right too, but I really smoked those things . . . 
TomJV


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## racerpoet (Apr 20, 2013)

I've never heard of the Tyrol Sport Steel "bushings," but from what I read they seem pretty cool. Let us know how it feels.


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

None of these other suggestions really address the odd rotor wear. Although - when you're bleeding the brakes, do you get a relatively easy/consistent flow from all four corners when you open the bleed valves?


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## GasInMyVeins (Jul 11, 2010)

KG18t said:


> None of these other suggestions really address the odd rotor wear. Although - when you're bleeding the brakes, do you get a relatively easy/consistent flow from all four corners when you open the bleed valves?


The deteriorating guide pins could be the cause of the odd wear.


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*brakes*

Ok, so thus far I've installed new rotors, pads, Tyrolsport bushings, Stoptech brake lines and rebuilt the calipers. Whew!
Today, I bled the system and got the nuts up to VAG the ABS. After, I bled the fronts and got LOTS of air out the front passenger side. I drove the car and re-bedded the pads. Honestly, it didn't feel much better.
I'm going to let it set overnight to cure the pads, then drive 'er again. It's a bit confusing because I have a different suspension in this car from my other VR.

Probably I'm going to redo the VAG ABS thing as I'm not sure I "got it". I found the whole thing totally ambiguous and confusing. I DID get mega air bubbles though.

LOL, the first time the ABS kicked in, I nearly crapped my draws! I immediately lifted my foot off the pedal. 
Understand, I'm home alone in my quiet garage and then this thing bangs out, out of nowhere. The thing's LOUD.

If anyone's good at this ABS gig, please hook me up with a DIY.
Thanks,
TomJV


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*pain*

Today I did the VAG/ABS thing. It sucks because there's no instructions. For instance, when you pump the brakes, do you open and close the valves? Do you hold the pedal on the last pump, then close the valves?
Anyway, 2 hours later and 2 qrts of fluid and it's worse than ever. 

When I did the VAG thing, I kept getting mega air out of the front passenger side caliper. It seemed to stop so I shut the computer and did a standard Motive bleed.
After, the pedal is mush. Undrivable now.
TomJV


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## GasInMyVeins (Jul 11, 2010)

I've never done the ABS bleed on mine (a pressure bleeder has always done the trick for me), but if you are still getting massive air out of just that caliper, then I'd bet on a leak in a line somewhere.


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*Here's what!*

I started this whole mess because my 2003 Golf GTI VR, which I recently acquired with 84K, didn't stop well and wore FRONT brake pads and rotors unevenly. I first checked out the booster and master, which seemed fine. After, I replaced pads/rotors, rebuilt the calipers, installed SS lines, Tyrolsport bushings, system bleed and bedded the pads. The problem PERSISTED.

I surmised there must be air in the ABS. I did the VAG/ABS bleed(no Motive). Then a normal system bleed with the Motive tool. 
After, the pedal felt more firm and higher. I went for a drive and slowly worked up to full stops from speed to bed the pads(again).
I'm pretty sure I've got it now. I can feel the fronts biting nicely, which was the issue from the outset.

As for the VAG bleed, I had several questions about it going in. Truth be told, I did this two times, only getting it right the second time around. I had lots of questions and I couldn't really find any detailed answers. Here's my take.
First off, it's my feeling that that process is NOT intended to be a literal procedure. I mean, you don't have to go start to finish. I think it's set up to repeat until the tech feels he's got all the air out(visually) and the product has been flushed, as with any other bleed job. I mean it keeps going and GOING . . . I used at least a qrt of product before I pulled the plug. 
A couple of times when I returned from emptying the bleeder bottles or topping off the reservoir, the PC started the next loop or something . . . I just hit "next" which brought me to the beginning of the next bleed procedure. It's NOT "rocket science". Bleeders closed. Press & hold pedal. ABS will cycle 10sec. Release pedal, open bleeders and pump the pedal 10X. Close the bleeders. Top off the reservoir. Repeat until . . . ?
Second, I did this with 3 (count 'em!) people. I put the car on stands(all four wheels). They say it's absolutely necessary. Only God knows WHY! Anyway, I stood by the driver door and worked the pedal and the PC. I had my two willing helpers, one at each front wheel, working the bleeders. I ran the pc, calling the shots and pumping the pedal. I had the helpers open the valves and what I feel is important, CLOSING them as I was stepping on the pedal for the last time, each round. Doing this myself, I wasn't comfortable letting the pedal rise, THEN closing the valves. Between each salvo, I'd top off the reservoir. I went thru a LOT of product and I'd be lying if I told you I didn't REUSE some of the perfectly CLEAR product coming from the bleeders.

When it says to "press and hold" the pedal to start each round of bleeding, I did just that, step and hold. I didn't do any crazy panic type step etc.
When pumping, I pumped as though I was doing a typical old school brake bleed. Slow, steady pushes without going to the floor. You can feel the pedal firming up as the air is expelled. You can feel when your helpers close the valves.
Your helpers should be calling out the quality of the product moving thru the lines.

.............
Bleeding Order - As I said, first the ABS, then a standard bleed. I actually tried the brakes after doing ONLY the ABS, thinking "heck, I already did this". It wasn't right yet. You got to do the whole gig.

Bleeder Bottles - I used 16oz soda blottles. Just drill a hole the size of the tubing thru the cap. You can stand them up on a box or duct tape and wire them to something. Help prevent spills and easy uncapping and draining. Have a large jug set up with a funnel ready to accept waste.

Prepping Brake Parts - When I had the calipers off, I put them and the carriers on a wire wheel. They came out like new. I only regret not painting them while I had them all cleaned up. You should have seen all the gunk that came out of those things too, mind ya, AFTER a system flush. This is not a bad job to do for general maintenance on an older car and is a MUST for a restoration. It's not hard, just messy. Costs like $20? Caliper rebuild kits DON'T include: a new bleeder/rubber cap, brake line washers, **rubber caliper bushings** Like so many other things you do to your ride, NO mechanic will do it like you can do it yourself.

Parts - Sorry, I use only standard quality parts on all my brakes. My cars stop like crazy and I get good life out of them. Maybe they make dust . . . I don't care. I INSIST on semi-metallic pads. It's my experience that others don't grab well.
- It's a good idea to have extra bleeders. Sometimes they wind up getting stripped due to being frozen on. It's a good idea to "break" them whenever you're in the neighborhood . . . like when you're swapping out snow tires etc. Don't loosen them, just break them to keep them moving. You can also give them a toot of PB Blaster. Don't overtighten them! Those suckers are small and it's easy to overdo it. Just snug them up and you're good to go.
- Make sure you have extra rubber caps. Missing caps can be the cause of clogged bleeders and unsuccessful or troublesome bleeding. (I got my parts from PartsGeek)

Fluid - I used Valvoline full synthetic . . . mostly because it was on sale for LESS than the store brand which I WOULD HAVE used. I big in flushing fluid. I couldn't believe the crap that come out of this system. It was like swamp water. I'll bet it was full of water. This could have been half or all the problem with the brakes!

Putting the car on stands - This is my procedure which I find SAFE, QUICK and easy. I jack the car up front the front rocker point and then slide two 8x8s (stacked) under the frame rail, then slide a jack stand(at lowest setting) under the rear rocker jack point. When you slowly lower the jack, the entire side of the car will be off the ground. Repeat for side 2.

Tire removal - I did this procedure with the rears ON the car and the fronts OFF. 

Tools - VAG tool, Motive tool, flare nut wrench(11mm), lots of rags and rubber gloves, lots of cardboard(put a sheet under each wheel and on your bench)

TomJV


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*after all that*

After all that, the brakes are basically the same. I can't imagine what to do next, maybe MS? It's my feeling there's a leak, but I can't find it. 
I'll post when I get it.
TomJV


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

If the rotors are still wearing as above - there's something else wrong. You said you'd put new rotors on, and they started to do the same thing? I'm beginning to lean towards bent stuff - carrier, etc. Everything being cleaned with new slides - it should wear down evenly. When you look at the inside pad - is it worn at an angle? (Inside edge taller than outside edge)


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*brakes*



KG18t said:


> None of these other suggestions really address the odd rotor wear. Although - when you're bleeding the brakes, do you get a relatively easy/consistent flow from all four corners when you open the bleed valves?


Yes. I get good flow all around. I'm using the Motive tool at 13psi.
TomJV


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*brakes*



GasInMyVeins said:


> The deteriorating guide pins could be the cause of the odd wear.


Yes, I agree. I installed the Tyrolsport bushings/pins.
TomJV


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

KG18t said:


> If the rotors are still wearing as above - there's something else wrong. You said you'd put new rotors on, and they started to do the same thing? I'm beginning to lean towards bent stuff - carrier, etc. Everything being cleaned with new slides - it should wear down evenly. When you look at the inside pad - is it worn at an angle? (Inside edge taller than outside edge)


I have to look into this. The guy (previous owner) hit something(rather, drove over, like a curb) and the car was repaired. He also had the car slammed(not any more, I raised it).
I replaced the control arms and had the car aligned. I also noted the pie pans on both rotors are all bent up. 
The car has aftermarket axles.
When I did the brakes, I had the carriers off and cleaned them up on the wire wheel. I noted no obvious damage.

I have the pads in a box. I'll inspect them and reply.
TomJV


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*Master Cylinder*

Can anyone tell me how to install a new MS? Bench bleeding etc.
I removed it and ordered a new one.
I'll post here before starting a new thread.
TomJV


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

The MS woudln't explain the odd wear, don't waste your time/money. That HAS to be out at the rotors/pads/calipers/spindle somewhere. Or - although the wear would seem to be wrong - wheel bearings. It's almost like the pads aren't seating on the piston properly, or, they're twisting instead of clamping down evenly.


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*changed the MS & zip*

Well, I changed the MS and it's worse than ever. The pedal goes down 2-3" and finally stops a little, but the car is un-drivable.
OMG, I've never been so frustrated. I mean I've done brake flush and bleeds a billion times and never had an issue . . .
TomJV


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## KG18t (Aug 9, 2006)

See my previous post. This has nothing to do with the hydraulics. You've been through all of that already.


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*I did!*

Believe me KG, I did. I mean there's just not much going on down there . . . I looked very closely at the carriers etc, but I can't discern anything amiss.
Also, the pedal is mush(now). There must be air in the system. -just beats me! I did the VAG thing and the pedal was textbook. The fluid coming out was clear. Then I did a Motive and got (only) a couple bubbles from the RR and ditto on both fronts. Went to drive it and it's just not safe.

I guess I have to re-bleed, but I wish I had a better angle on it.
TomJV


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*Done*

Well, I think I finally got it. I did the 3 person method last Saturday and wasn't happy with the results, so I did it again on Sunday. Seems like it's way better. I say "seems" because I have this soft floaty suspension installed and when I brake hard, the car swerves. I'll be installing a set of PSS9s this weekend  which should fix that.

So in the end, I changed the front brakes, rebuilt the calipers, installed the tyroll sport stiffening kit, replaced the master and installed Stoptech SS lines.
At least I know the fluid is flushed. I'll post a pic of the swampwater that came out!
TomJV


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*Tyrol Sport Stiffening kit*









Actually came with an extra circlip!








...as compared to the stock rubber bushings.








Note the nice covers.


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*Bench bleeding master cylinder*


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*Swamp water*

This is the swamp water that came out of the brake system!


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*Stoptech brake lines*


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*caliper rebuild*


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*Torque Solution*

I bought a set of Torque Solution caliper stiffening bushings for my 2000 Golf VR. $85 on amazon.
TomJV


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## tomjv (Jun 15, 2001)

*why?*

Can anyone tell me why my pics aren't displaying? When I copy the URL into my browser, they come right up.
TomJV


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## racerpoet (Apr 20, 2013)

So is it all good now? That old bf looks nasty!

No clue on the pics. I opened the last two posts in another tab and pics came right up.


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## sc3283 (Dec 23, 2014)

wheel bearings tight?


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