# Looking for VCDS (VAG-COM) users to test a Climatronic label file



## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

Hello,

I have written a VCDS label file for the Phaeton's Climatronic system. The one that exists today has almost no information in it. I've nailed down pretty much every sensor and every flap and a bunch of other things, but I'm still testing. I'd love to have feedback from anybody else that can test.

I'd be interested in ANY feedback, but I'd be particularly interested in feedback from people with one or more of the following options I don't have:


Right hand drive (check to see if "driver" defrost button is "driver" or "left")
Engine options other than W12
Auxiliary heater (TDI)
Parking heater
Heated windshield
Four-seater Phaetons
Five-seater Phaetons with high-line controls (ventilation, power headrests and seat controls)
Solar sunroof


I have some specific things I'd like you to do if you can help, please let me know. Once it's finished and tested as best I can, I'll ask Ross-Tech to include it in the base VCDS install.

The label file, updated 1/3/2012: 3D0-907-040.lbl

Another label file, for wiper electronics updated 1/3/2012: 3D1-955-119.lbl

A work-in-progress airflow control diagram updated 1/3/2012: PhaetonHVACLogicalWIP.pdf


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## Theresias (Feb 11, 2004)

Thanks for creating this file Jason, I've looked over it briefly and it does look quite promising. If you don't mind I'd like to make some modifications during this week and will upload a fresh copy again ASAP.

The main reason why we never updated that file was because we have no maps from a Phaeton HVAC. Thanks to your email that has been solved.  What I would recommend though is creating a map of the Rear Module (#28) as well, if you do that I'd appreciate a copy if you could send a copy to me.


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

Hey Sebastian,

Thanks for the reply. I would be grateful of your expertise on any of the remaining stuff. I've sent you a couple pre-label files by email. FYI, the label file linked to here has a couple changes the one I emailed last week doesn't have.

Re: your changes, I don't mind at all, I was reaching out for help. However, let's talk again before you finalize a file for inclusion in VCDS. I've got a bunch of observation / testing time buried in that file and I came across more than one place where reference docs were definitely wrong. I also had to reformat the flap motor and potentiometer label headers because some of the names are ridiculously long (a couple still don't fit!).

Next time I'm in the garage, I'm going to use a heat gun to verify the G17/G89 MVB positions, and update all the flap motor field 3&4 labels with their operational purpose.. fix a couple open/closed reversals and correctly label the splitter directions. I think that's about all I've got left.


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Drool.

This is just the kind of grown-up thing that this forum supports so well. Good stuff Jason, and of course Ross-Tech. 

Chris


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hi Jason:

Wow - thank you for your efforts!!!

I wrote many of the Phaeton label files back around 2005 or so. If I can help you in any way - for example, by sharing information that I used back then - please feel free to contact me by PM/IM here in the forum, or by email (click on my username to reveal my email address).

I keep my Phaeton (a W12 NAR model) on Vancouver Island, however, I will be in Toronto for the next 3 weeks and won't have access to the car. But I will have access to all my reference material, and I am very happy to share it and assist you in any way I can.

Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Sebastian:

Attached are pre-label files for controllers 08 and 28 from my car, which is a MY 2004 North American specification W12 Phaeton. There might be tiny differences between my MY 2004 car and Jason's MY 2006. Pre-label files for the windshield wiper controller are also included because we have no label file at all for that one.

The attached file is actually a .rar, not a .zip, I was forced to change the extension to .zip because the forum software won't allow me to attach a .rar. Doesn't seem like it matters much anyway, when I click on the renamed file, WinRAR opens it anyway...

Michael


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

Michael,

You're welcome! It's actually more like thank you. I wouldn't have even bought this car without the wealth of information you put together in the sticky thread. Among other things, I've retrofitted push-button start using your walk-through. I'm pretty handy with VCDS, this being my third VW, and I wanted to give back a little. I looked at the PLB you posted and it seems your control module puts out pretty much the same thing mine does.

Sebastian,

I've updated the label file at the URL in my first post. I confirmed the outside air temperature sensors, added info for some un-documented states in MVB 005 F1/F2, discovered and documented MVB 043 as intervention load management, labeled all the control flap extremities with their function, cleaned up labeling to fit on-screen everywhere and pulled the majority of my debugging comments. Let me know what you think. I'm sure you'll have stuff to add or change.

Interesting factoid: I had always read here, and in the VW training docs, that the Phaeton's HVAC will switch to recirculate mode when the car is in Reverse. I've been specifically looking for it and I can find *no* indication this actually happens. Does this work for anyone else? I'm wondering if maybe it's a TDI thing.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

jyoung8607 said:


> I'd be interested in ANY feedback, but I'd be particularly interested in feedback from people with one or more of the following options I don't have:
> 
> 
> Right hand drive (check to see if "driver" defrost button is "driver" or "left")
> ...


This looks like great information! Up until now, I used the "Output tests" sequence to check specific functions of the HVAC, but this might be more simple. I will have some fun this weekend, for sure The solar roof test has to wait until the sun starts shining again... I will report what I found.
Willem


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

This evening, I couldn't resist the temptation to test the new label file for the HVAC. So I fired my engine and for the next half hour, I submerged my neighbourhood in a cloud of exhaust gases. This label file isn't good for emission reduction! 

Here are some results:


Address 08: Auto HVAC (3D0 907 040 F)

21:10:17 Group 007: Rear Left and Rear Right Air Distribution with *PTC* Heating
0.0 % PTC Heater Load Left (Z42)
6.0°C Temp After PTC Left (G309)
0.0 % PTC Heater Load Right (Z43)
6.0°C Temp After PTC Right (G310)

Question: what is "*PTC*". Is it a temperature sensor with Positive Temperature Coefficient?

21:10:17 Group 015: Flap Motor V197/G315: Distribution Temperature Control - Heater Bypass Air
47.0 Current Value 
46.0 Specified Value 
46.0 Minimum Position Blocked
148.0 Maximum Position Open

_My guess is the flap is closed (minimum position), so there will not be any unheated air fed into the cabin._

21:10:17 Group 016: Flap Motor V198/G316: Distribution Temperature Control - Heated Air
45.0 Current Value 
43.0 Specified Value 
43.0 Minimum Position Open
163.0 Maximum Position Blocked
_
Could be closed too. I had set the fan control to zero. So basically off._

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Address 08: Auto HVAC (3D0 907 040 F)

21:13:45 Group 021: Flap Motor V213/G330: Dash Panel Indirect Ventilation Vents
162.0 Current Value 
163.0 Specified Value 
47.0 Minimum Position Blocked
163.0 Maximum Position Open

21:13:45 Group 022: Flap Motor V110/G387: Center Left Dash Panel Vent
63.0 Current Value 
63.0 Specified Value 
63.0 Minimum Position Blocked
192.0 Maximum Position Open
_
I'm not yet sure whether I fully understand the difference between Dash Panel Indirect Vent and Center Left Dash Panel Vent._

21:13:45 Group 023: Flap Motor V111/G388: Center Right Dash Panel Vent
43.0 Current Value 
42.0 Specified Value 
42.0 Minimum Position Blocked
172.0 Maximum Position Open
_
I wonder why the minimum and maximum positions between left and right are so much different._

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Address 08: Auto HVAC (3D0 907 040 F)

21:13:53 Group 021: Flap Motor V213/G330: Dash Panel Indirect Ventilation Vents
162.0 Current Value 
163.0 Specified Value 
47.0 Minimum Position Blocked
163.0 Maximum Position Open

21:13:53 Group 022: Flap Motor V110/G387: Center Left Dash Panel Vent
63.0 Current Value 
63.0 Specified Value 
63.0 Minimum Position Blocked
192.0 Maximum Position Open

21:13:53 Group 023: Flap Motor V111/G388: Center Right Dash Panel Vent
43.0 Current Value 
42.0 Specified Value 
42.0 Minimum Position Blocked
172.0 Maximum Position Open

_Comment: just some more playing with controls_
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Address 08: Auto HVAC (3D0 907 040 F)

21:17:58 Group 007: Rear Left and Rear Right Air Distribution with PTC Heating
0.0 % PTC Heater Load Left (Z42)
6.0°C Temp After PTC Left (G309)
0.0 % PTC Heater Load Right (Z43)
8.0°C Temp After PTC Right (G310)

21:17:58 Group 015: Flap Motor V197/G315: Distribution Temperature Control - Heater Bypass Air
47.0 Current Value 
46.0 Specified Value 
46.0 Minimum Position Blocked
148.0 Maximum Position Open

21:17:58 Group 016: Flap Motor V198/G316: Distribution Temperature Control - Heated Air
45.0 Current Value 
43.0 Specified Value 
43.0 Minimum Position Open
163.0 Maximum Position Blocked

_And more playing_
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Address 08: Auto HVAC (3D0 907 040 F)

21:25:09 Group 010: Flap Motor V107/G135: Front Windshield Defrost Vent
131.0 Current Value 
130.0 Specified Value 
104.0 Minimum Position Blocked
209.0 Maximum Position Open

21:25:09 Group 011: Flap Motor V108/G139: Front Left Footwell Vent
212.0 Current Value 
213.0 Specified Value 
100.0 Minimum Position Blocked
213.0 Maximum Position Open

21:25:09 Group 012: Flap Motor V109/G140: Front Right Footwell Vent
131.0 Current Value 
131.0 Specified Value 
39.0 Minimum Position Blocked
155.0 Maximum Position Open

_Prior to defrosting_
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Address 08: Auto HVAC (3D0 907 040 F)

21:26:42 Group 010: Flap Motor V107/G135: Front Windshield Defrost Vent
127.0 Current Value 
129.0 Specified Value 
104.0 Minimum Position Blocked
209.0 Maximum Position Open

21:26:42 Group 011: Flap Motor V108/G139: Front Left Footwell Vent
212.0 Current Value 
213.0 Specified Value 
100.0 Minimum Position Blocked
213.0 Maximum Position Open

21:26:42 Group 012: Flap Motor V109/G140: Front Right Footwell Vent
132.0 Current Value 
131.0 Specified Value 
39.0 Minimum Position Blocked
155.0 Maximum Position Open
_
I think I pressed the defrost button here._
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Address 08: Auto HVAC (3D0 907 040 F)

21:27:37 Group 010: Flap Motor V107/G135: Front Windshield Defrost Vent
208.0 Current Value 
209.0 Specified Value 
104.0 Minimum Position Blocked
209.0 Maximum Position Open

21:27:37 Group 011: Flap Motor V108/G139: Front Left Footwell Vent
101.0 Current Value 
100.0 Specified Value 
100.0 Minimum Position Blocked
213.0 Maximum Position Open

21:27:37 Group 012: Flap Motor V109/G140: Front Right Footwell Vent
40.0 Current Value 
39.0 Specified Value 
39.0 Minimum Position Blocked
155.0 Maximum Position Open

_Defrost OFF_
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Address 08: Auto HVAC (3D0 907 040 F)

21:33:32 Group 004: Pump Valve Controls and Heat Exchanger Temperatures
16.0 % Regulation Valve Left (N175)
60.0°C Exchanger Temp Left (G306)
11.0 % Regulation Valve Right (N176)
60.0°C Exchanger Temp Right (G307)

_This is an interesting MVB to check the heat exchanger function. It was cold outside (6 ⁰C), cabin temperature at 21 ⁰C._ 

21:33:32 Group 011: Flap Motor V108/G139: Front Left Footwell Vent
212.0 Current Value 
213.0 Specified Value 
100.0 Minimum Position Blocked
213.0 Maximum Position Open

21:33:32 Group 012: Flap Motor V109/G140: Front Right Footwell Vent
133.0 Current Value 
131.0 Specified Value 
39.0 Minimum Position Blocked
155.0 Maximum Position Open

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Address 08: Auto HVAC (3D0 907 040 F)

21:33:47 Group 004: Pump Valve Controls and Heat Exchanger Temperatures
100.0 % Regulation Valve Left (N175)
59.0°C Exchanger Temp Left (G306)
100.0 % Regulation Valve Right (N176)
57.0°C Exchanger Temp Right (G307)

21:33:47 Group 011: Flap Motor V108/G139: Front Left Footwell Vent
212.0 Current Value 
213.0 Specified Value 
100.0 Minimum Position Blocked
213.0 Maximum Position Open

21:33:47 Group 012: Flap Motor V109/G140: Front Right Footwell Vent
132.0 Current Value 
131.0 Specified Value 
39.0 Minimum Position Blocked
155.0 Maximum Position Open

Above test (Group 004) looks like an interesting measurement to verify that the pump valves controls are operative. For instance, when the current value isn't following the specified value, then apparently the valve is defective, or stuck or clogged.
It is very interesting to see that each valve and flap has its own end positions. They are not only model specific, but seem to have been set individually. Which makes me wonder how these settings are established. Are these limits determined in the factory? Or alternatively, are they determined by their controllers during some sort of adaptation procedure? If that is the case, then how can they be forced into this adaptation procedure or is there a method to reset them to default values, for instance when the end positions are corrupted?

Anyone?

Willem


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

I wish I had this much information and control over my house's 80kW heating. I think I'll move into the P.


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

WillemBal said:


> It is very interesting to see that each valve and flap has its own end positions. They are not only model specific, but seem to have been set individually. Which makes me wonder how these settings are established. Are these limits determined in the factory? Or alternatively, are they determined by their controllers during some sort of adaptation procedure? If that is the case, then how can they be forced into this adaptation procedure or is there a method to reset them to default values, for instance when the end positions are corrupted?


Lots of stuff here to reply to, but here's an easy one: flap stops are indeed learned during an adaptation procedure. During adaptation, each control motor is driven to its stop on one side and the potentiometer value at the stop is recorded, and then driven to the other stop and the same thing happens.

Look at the Adaptation block at the bottom of the label file. Use VCDS on the same module, but go into Adaptation instead of MVBs. Follow the directions in the label file. You'll see some German text come back, HVAC will do bizarre things for about 30-60 seconds and then the learned positions are stored. Almost all the other VW Climatronic control modules use the Basic Settings function for this task. I don't know why it's in Adaptation on the Phaeton. It's the exact same task.

FYI -- it looks like the stuff above was typed out by hand. If you want a shortcut to capture everything out of the module, open VCDS and go to the Applications menu (not Select), choose Controller Map, enter controller address 08 and leave it on Measured Value Blocks and Pre-Label file. VCDS will drop an annotated log file with the value from every MVB on the module.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

jyoung8607 said:


> Look at the Adaptation block at the bottom of the label file. Use VCDS on the same module, but go into Adaptation instead of MVBs. Follow the directions in the label file. You'll see some German text come back, HVAC will do bizarre things for about 30-60 seconds and then the learned positions are stored. Almost all the other VW Climatronic control modules use the Basic Settings function for this task. I don't know why it's in Adaptation on the Phaeton. It's the exact same task.


Hi Jason,
Thx for your quick and thorough reply. Your procedure looks pretty simple and I will try that tomorrow. I am aware of that "Basic settings" procedure, which is apparently not working for the Phaeton. I'll try the Adaptation route tomorrow. 



jyoung8607 said:


> FYI -- it looks like the stuff above was typed out by hand. If you want a shortcut to capture everything out of the module, open VCDS and go to the Applications menu (not Select), choose Controller Map, enter controller address 08 and leave it on Measured Value Blocks and Pre-Label file. VCDS will drop an annotated log file with the value from every MVB on the module.


Ha nooooo! I'm sometimes crazy, but I'm not going to type all that stuff by hand. 
But I indeed used the Select button. Then, I use the log button to append the results of the selected MVB's. The only tiring thing is that you have keep changing the MVB numbers, then press "Log" again to append the results. What you said is probably easier, i.e. going into Applications and then log the whole thing at once.
Great tip, thanks!

Willem


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

> 21:10:17 Group 007: Rear Left and Rear Right Air Distribution with *PTC* Heating
> 0.0 % PTC Heater Load Left (Z42)
> 6.0°C Temp After PTC Left (G309)
> 0.0 % PTC Heater Load Right (Z43)
> ...


Positive Temperature Coefficient heaters, yes, electric supplemental heating for the passengers in the back. F1 is what percentage output the left heater is being driven at, and F2 is the sensor measuring air temperature right after the heater. They're together in a black plastic box under the front seats; the footwell vent comes directly out of it. F3/F4 are the same thing for the right side. You can see and feel them in action whenever the rear passenger's heat needs can't be met by the front passenger's venting. You'll see them on at cold startup when there's little engine heat available, or if the rear passenger's temperature preference is higher than the front passenger.

I wonder if you've seen the VW self-study guide for the Phaeton's HVAC? It describes the system in detail, really fascinating information to read over. It was one of the major inputs into locating and testing and validating all the stuff in the label file.



> 21:10:17 Group 015: Flap Motor V197/G315: Distribution Temperature Control - Heater Bypass Air
> 47.0 Current Value
> 46.0 Specified Value
> 46.0 Minimum Position Blocked
> ...


I labeled all the min/max positions with their function in the second description field, so "Blocked" or "Open" should be accurate for any given MVB. For the ones that don't block, that just divert airflow between one duct and another, I labeled their destinations. In your example, all airflow (except the rear center console) is being routed through the two heat exchangers. That doesn't necessarily mean max-hot; the heat exchanger temperature is regulated.



> 21:13:45 Group 021: Flap Motor V213/G330: Dash Panel Indirect Ventilation Vents
> 162.0 Current Value
> 163.0 Specified Value
> 47.0 Minimum Position Blocked
> ...


Dash panel left, center-left, center-right and right are the strip of direct chest-level vents behind the decorative retracting trim. Center-left and center-right are the ones left and right of the analog clock. The dash panel indirect (draftless!) vents are hidden under the pinhole mesh lining the top of the dashboard, along with (I believe) the recirculation air intake.



> 21:26:42 Group 010: Flap Motor V107/G135: Front Windshield Defrost Vent
> 127.0 Current Value
> 129.0 Specified Value
> 104.0 Minimum Position Blocked
> ...


Am I misreading comment order or are these possibly backward? The readings make sense if they are reversed. The first one looks like normal heating (most air to footwell, windshield defrost cracked open a touch). The second one looks like full defrost, footwell vents shut off and windshield defrost wide open. Possibly I'm reading the before/after stuff out of order.


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

Jason et al:

Wow - what a task. I've always felt that the hardest system in a Phaeton for a tech to diagnose/repair is the HVAC system. Other repairs tend to be close enough to other cars that a good tech can deal with them. The engine, the transmission, the frontend, the brakes, even the air suspension are pretty much replicated in other more common cars. However, the climatronic system in the Phaeton is in a league of its own and diagnosing problems is near impossible without the aid of something like VCDS. However, without proper label files the diagnostic information is useless. 

So Jason, thanks for taking the lead in generating a label file for the climatronics. I'm sure you'll get plenty of help from some other competent forum members, such as Michael & Willem. i wish I could be more help but i think my role will have to be as a tester. Once I've tried integrating your label files in my scan, I'll provide feedback.

Jim X


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Hi Jason,
Thank you ever so much for your replies to my questions and recommendations for creating faster outputs. You correctly observed that I reversed my comments about the defrost function. Yesterday, I repeated this test with automatic versus defrost operation and made various files, including PLB and blockmap files. I sent them to you via PM.

Most useful file, I think, is the blockmap file (CSV extension). I could open it with Excel and use the wizard to separate the values into different columns. Still, it is a big puzzle to find out what value belongs to what, so I adapted the worksheet a bit and added some formula's to create a visualisation of the system with the actual values in there as well. Thanks to your logical diagram, this task is a lot easier! The next step would be to create a file link, making it possible to link the data from the blockmap file into the visualisation sheet. It's is one big puzzle, but quite fun to do.

Willem


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

Jxander said:


> Wow - what a task. I've always felt that the hardest system in a Phaeton for a tech to diagnose/repair is the HVAC system. Other repairs tend to be close enough to other cars that a good tech can deal with them. The engine, the transmission, the frontend, the brakes, even the air suspension are pretty much replicated in other more common cars. However, the climatronic system in the Phaeton is in a league of its own and diagnosing problems is near impossible without the aid of something like VCDS. However, without proper label files the diagnostic information is useless.
> 
> So Jason, thanks for taking the lead in generating a label file for the climatronics. I'm sure you'll get plenty of help from some other competent forum members, such as Michael & Willem. i wish I could be more help but i think my role will have to be as a tester. Once I've tried integrating your label files in my scan, I'll provide feedback.


Thanks. 

The Phaeton isn't that far off the map for someone familiar with Volkswagen's typical HVAC. My 2004 Passat I drove before this operates on the same principles. It uses most of the same technology and is diagnosed in the same way. Same for the Golf, Jetta and New Beetle of the same vintage. It's a tiny bit simpler, of course, with four control motors instead of the 25 in the Phaeton but it has fewer vents and some of the vent-shutoffs that are done electronically in the Phaeton can still be done manually in the Passat.

The Phaeton has more vents, more measurements in more places, split heat exchangers, a little bit of electric heat assist and the decorative (non-functional) vent covers but it's going about the same job in the same way. If your AC doesn't get cold in the summer, you look for the same problems with the refrigerant system. If you don't get heat in the winter, there's another piece or two in the mix but you look for the same basic problems with coolant and air flow. If air isn't going where you think it should, you look at diagram for the system and figure out which flaps aren't doing their jobs and use VCDS to do measurement and testing.

Having no MVB labels would make diagnosis really hard. I would guess VW makes info available in their VAS 50XX diagnostic tools for dealers, but I don't know.


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

WillemBal said:


> Most useful file, I think, is the blockmap file (CSV extension). I could open it with Excel and use the wizard to separate the values into different columns. Still, it is a big puzzle to find out what value belongs to what, so I adapted the worksheet a bit and added some formula's to create a visualisation of the system with the actual values in there as well. Thanks to your logical diagram, this task is a lot easier! The next step would be to create a file link, making it possible to link the data from the blockmap file into the visualisation sheet. It's is one big puzzle, but quite fun to do.


I received this, thanks! Looks good, should be useful.

I compared the PLB output between my car, Michael's and yours and it looks like our controllers all work very nearly the same way. Yours is the oldest, and the one difference I see is in MVB 043 field 3, where myself and Michael have ON/OFF values but you have nothing. We don't know what that particular field does yet, but I've identified everything else in there as intervention load management. It would make sense for the Phaeton's load management algorithms to evolve a bit over time.

I have an updated logical air flow diagram I need to post. The current one doesn't clearly show air from the the heat exchangers remaining divided until output (the TBD comments). Some of the control motors, like the dash panel indirect vent and the defrost vents, open both sides at the same time but they remain separate. Also, I think the center vent temperature sensor only measures one side's output. I need to verify a couple things before I post it.


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

WillemBal said:


> The solar roof test has to wait until the sun starts shining again... I will report what I found.
> Willem


I did some poking around and I'm pretty sure I understand how the solar sunroof option works. It's actually very simple. Turning it "on" consists of a flag in Climatronic to set flaps and vents a certain way at shutdown. There's a relay that isolates the blower motor from onboard power and hooks it up to the solar sunroof power converter. After that, the Climatronic unit itself appears to go completely asleep as it normally would. The sunroof makes power and spins the blower or doesn't, depending on available sunshine.

I was able to spoof my NAR vehicle into thinking it has a solar sunroof by recoding the roof controller. The option pops up on my infotainment display, I can turn it on, and I can see it open the dash vent covers and set up flaps at shutdown. I can't find a perceptible difference in address 08 MVBs one way or another, so I don't think there's a label file impact.

I've been giving some idle thought to a solar sunroof-type retrofit, without the solar panels. The wiring from the sunroof isn't there, naturally, but I think the relay position itself is there. If the relay is installed and fed from whatever DC source, the blower will spin. You could build a decent, fully transparent version fed by a small battery or two hidden somewhere, perhaps under the hat shelf with the other controllers. Supposedly the sunroof's max power output in full sun is about 35 watts; you can get a few hours out that out of a decent size UPS battery, more if you don't run it at full speed and you aren't limited to just one battery. You would regulate fan power feed with a cabin temp thermostat switch and a battery low-voltage cutoff. You would recharge the batteries by paralleling them into the starter battery, which is fed by the DC-DC converter/charger with the engine running, using a relay switched on terminal 75X (or whatever the equivalent is on the Phaeton). Fully OEM-style solar sunroof operation without the solar sunroof! Cheap, and wouldn't require removing the cabin interior. Just idle thought so far.


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

One more update...

I got access to some MVB data from the dealer's VAS diagnostic tools. Totally cheating, I know, but it let me confirm some guesses and fill in about two more MVBs worth of data. That said, the VAS MVB labels themselves had some definite glaring errors, so we'll be in better shape than a dealer.

I also built a label file for Wiper Electronics J400 (#68). The dealer tools have pretty much nothing on it, so this file is straight experimentation and observation with some remaining unknowns. It's available here: 3D1-955-119.lbl, or I also linked to it in the first post of this thread.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Hi Jason,
Your description is entirely right. The sunroof power converter you talked about is actually mounted at the bottom side of the sunroof.




jyoung8607 said:


> I've been giving some idle thought to a solar sunroof-type retrofit, without the solar panels. The wiring from the sunroof isn't there, naturally, but I think the relay position itself is there.


The wiring isn't spectacular. There are just 2 wires, a red one, leading to the front right of the panel, connected to a sliding contact and a blue wire, leading to the front right. So both of them are wired to the car via sliding contacts, and the minus contact is probably connected to the car body, leaving one single wire to be connected to the relay. I think that the relay is present, somewhere, but not in the (solar) roof for sure.




jyoung8607 said:


> Fully OEM-style solar sunroof operation without the solar sunroof! Cheap, and wouldn't require removing the cabin interior. Just idle thought so far.


I'm pretty sure that all you need to do for an upgrade is to exchange the solar panel only. It is held by only 6 screws. Last week, I removed mine to fix the seal surrounding the glass panel. It is a 20 minute job to replace the panel. 
Willem


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

WillemBal said:


> The wiring isn't spectacular. There are just 2 wires, a red one, leading to the front right of the panel, connected to a sliding contact and a blue wire, leading to the front right. So both of them are wired to the car via sliding contacts, and the minus contact is probably connected to the car body, leaving one single wire to be connected to the relay. I think that the relay is present, somewhere, but not in the (solar) roof for sure.


Good info, thanks. I haven't been able to get a very good view of how the solar panel actually makes contact with the car. It looks like there's something off on the right edge but the parts diagram is not very clear. The relay itself is in the relay box in the right side passenger footwell.



> I'm pretty sure that all you need to do for an upgrade is to exchange the solar panel only. It is held by only 6 screws. Last week, I removed mine to fix the seal surrounding the glass panel. It is a 20 minute job to replace the panel.


It's really close. There's a slight difference in the frame. If you have a glass sunroof, the vented trim panel underneath is separately controlled and motorized. If you have a solar sunroof, the trim panel is anchored to the sunroof and moves with it. It looks to be exactly the same trim panel, it can be anchored to one or the other. If I recode my roof controller, the trim panel motor buttons stop working. I think it would just be the solar sunroof and a little wiring, and detaching the trim panel from the motor and attaching it to the sunroof. 

I think the DC-battery idea is probably a nonstarter after further review. I'm sure I could get enough battery endurance to last a whole sunny day. The trouble is, I think there's no way to turn solar ventilation truly off. It looks like if the car is off, and there's sun, the blower motor is running. There's no switches in the wiring diagram other than the one that cuts off the panels when the car is running. There's a "Solar Ventil." mode you can select on the J523, but it looks like all that does is set the vents and flaps in the right position. I read somewhere here on the forum their car behaves like this. Does that happen for you? If so, anything I put in would run 24x7 with the ignition off unless I wired in a hard switch somewhere else. I was thinking I could select when I want it just through Infotainment.

There's a Phaeton solar sunroof with the voltage converter up on German eBay right now for EUR 399. That would be a pretty reasonable price to have the option. I'll probably study it more when the weather is warmer.

Jason


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

jyoung8607 said:


> It's really close. There's a slight difference in the frame. If you have a glass sunroof, the vented trim panel underneath is separately controlled and motorized. If you have a solar sunroof, the trim panel is anchored to the sunroof and moves with it. It looks to be exactly the same trim panel, it can be anchored to one or the other. If I recode my roof controller, the trim panel motor buttons stop working. I think it would just be the solar sunroof and a little wiring, and detaching the trim panel from the motor and attaching it to the sunroof.


That's right. There is no motor to move the trim panel. The anchor is just a retaining clip, as shown in below photo. Once the roof is opened 10 cm, you can unhook the trim panel from the clip by pulling it down a little and move it all the way aft by hand.










The photo above also shows the positions of the two sliding & spring loaded contacts as well as the wiring leading to it. In the photo below, you can see where these contacts connect with the static part of the sun roof:













jyoung8607 said:


> If I recode my roof controller, the trim panel motor buttons stop working. I think it would just be the solar sunroof and a little wiring, and detaching the trim panel from the motor and attaching it to the sunroof


Perhaps there is a bit within the code which determines whether the trim panel motor is functional or not. With a solar roof, there is of course no benefit in a separately controllable trim panel, as the view is basically as in the first photo above.



jyoung8607 said:


> There's a "Solar Ventil." mode you can select on the J523, but it looks like all that does is set the vents and flaps in the right position. I read somewhere here on the forum their car behaves like this. Does that happen for you?


It happens just like that. The flaps will function normally until the moment you switch off the ignition. The flaps then will open, if they were not already open. When the sun starts shining on the roof, the vent motor will start running.

Some alternatives you might want to consider for a solar roof project:

*Trim panel*
Mount a simple and low cost solar panel on top of the trim panel. No heavy modifications are necessary. Only problem here is the electrical connection with the car and electrical circuit. The advantage is that you then still can enjoy the panoramic view through the glass roof when opening the trim panel, because the solar panel will be moved away with it.

*Charger*
Instead of connecting the solar panel to the fan, the energy could be used to charge the battery via a DC/DC converter. That better be smart, because it has to deal with the both the output voltage of the panel and the charge status of the battery.

*Remote cooling*
When you have the Webasto heater with remote control, you can enjoy both solar battery charging AND cooling. When you use the remote control of the Webasto heater, the fan will start running at a fairly high speed, without the heater kicking in. All day long, the battery will be charged and when you plan to leave with the car, you just switch on the aux heater with the remote.

If you are interested, here is some literature of the manufacturer: Webasto Solar

You mentioned that you saw it on E-bay for 399 Euro. Is the voltage converter intended for converting the output of the solar panel to 12 Volt, so that it can be used as battery charger? The normal output is much lower and with the fan connected, I isn't more than 6 Volts. 
BTW, there is one for € 199 as well. 

Willem


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

WillemBal said:


> That's right. There is no motor to move the trim panel. The anchor is just a retaining clip, as shown in below photo. Once the roof is opened 10 cm, you can unhook the trim panel from the clip by pulling it down a little and move it all the way aft by hand.
> 
> [ awesome pic ]
> 
> ...


This is incredibly helpful. This is the first view I've gotten of the car-side contacts. It looks like I don't have to worry about sliding electrical contacts, just a single point contact when the sunroof is closed. That would be easy to create on the existing frame. Are these pics of your own car's sunroof, or pics from another forum?



> Perhaps there is a bit within the code which determines whether the trim panel motor is functional or not. With a solar roof, there is of course no benefit in a separately controllable trim panel, as the view is basically as in the first photo above.


Right, and that's exactly what it is. With that coding, the roof controller thinks the trim panel motor doesn't exist and the buttons are ignored if you have them; cars shipping with the option don't have the buttons at all. The same signal tells the Climatronic / Infotainment systems that solar ventilation is available. Everything "works" on my NAR vehicle when I do that except of course I have no power to the blower.



> *Trim panel*
> Mount a simple and low cost solar panel on top of the trim panel. No heavy modifications are necessary. Only problem here is the electrical connection with the car and electrical circuit. The advantage is that you then still can enjoy the panoramic view through the glass roof when opening the trim panel, because the solar panel will be moved away with it.


I considered this. The factory glass sunroof is tinted, like the rest of the windows. It would probably cut the output of a panel beneath it so much as to not be useful.



> *Remote cooling*
> When you have the Webasto heater with remote control, you can enjoy both solar battery charging AND cooling. When you use the remote control of the Webasto heater, the fan will start running at a fairly high speed, without the heater kicking in. All day long, the battery will be charged and when you plan to leave with the car, you just switch on the aux heater with the remote.


Remote triggering would be interesting. The Webasto heater would be really nice to have. Here in the Midwest USA, we get both temperature extremes at times. It looks like it wouldn't be the end of the world to retrofit, but more time and expense than I want to tackle right away.



> If you are interested, here is some literature of the manufacturer: Webasto Solar
> 
> You mentioned that you saw it on E-bay for 399 Euro. Is the voltage converter intended for converting the output of the solar panel to 12 Volt, so that it can be used as battery charger? The normal output is much lower and with the fan connected, I isn't more than 6 Volts.
> BTW, there is one for € 199 as well.


Interesting, I didn't know Webasto made both the sunroof and the heater.

The panel's output will be relatively high-voltage, low-current. The converter changes that to low-voltage, high-current to match the motor's needs. That's what the motor would be getting if driven at low speed by Climatronic. The same panel could probably be used for battery charging, but you would use a solar charge controller type of DC-DC converter rather than the motor drive converter.

Where did you find one for € 199? For that I would stop thinking about it and just buy it.


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

jyoung8607 said:


> Are these pics of your own car's sunroof, or pics from another forum?


 The first is 100% mine, the second one, I copied it from internet and added text and arrows. 



> Where did you find one for € 199? For that I would stop thinking about it and just buy it.


 Right *HERE* 

I wonder how difficult it is for guys in USA to get it shipped and imported into the country. Have you done that before? 
The good news is that the price is including Mwst (VAT) so the seller doesn't (or shouldn't) charge that on top of the net price. So the net price then is approx. 167 Euro. I hope this seller can quote you an acceptable price including door to door shipping. Just let me know when you need help. 

Willem


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

WillemBal said:


> I wonder how difficult it is for guys in USA to get it shipped and imported into the country. Have you done that before?
> The good news is that the price is including Mwst (VAT) so the seller doesn't (or shouldn't) charge that on top of the net price. So the net price then is approx. 167 Euro. I hope this seller can quote you an acceptable price including door to door shipping. Just let me know when you need help.


 I've never ordered something that large from overseas before. But for EUR 199 for the entire frame containing almost everything I need, I'm going to give it a try. I'm writing to the seller now. 

Thank you very much for your help on this. 

Jason


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

The seller wrote back and indicated they can't ship directly to the USA. They suggested a forwarding service, but thought it would cost EUR 300-400.  I've been trying to research forwarding services in Germany but am having limited luck. German eBay may not work out for something of this size. 

I might take another closer look at panels below the existing sunroof. It might be possible to replace the glass panel with something un-tinted. 

Jason


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## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Even 14 years ago, a Freight Forwarder charged me $150 for shipping a palleted gearbox from New York to London. Import duty was due, too. The paperwork was slightly complex, requiring an export licence, but they handled that. 

Import to USA requires that you satisfy the need that the parts themselves are Type Approved for a Type Approved vehicle, or came from one. Again, I am sure a freight forwarder wouldn't baulk at that, it's their bread and butter. 

I don't suppose one of the friendly VW parts importers that appear on this forum could advise? 

Chris


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

Paximus said:


> Import to USA requires that you satisfy the need that the parts themselves are Type Approved for a Type Approved vehicle, or came from one.


 Really? I can picture a customs employee, scratching behind his head when you try to import a container full of solar roofs, but would the same employee even leave his seat to bother when a single solar panel is imported? These can be used for everything, even to cover your house with it... 
Nevertheless, airfreight to USA will triple the costs of the assembly. It's a pity... 

Meanwhile, I looked for a suitable inverter. There are plenty of them available, mostly from Chinese manufacturers. Pretty clever ones, including trickle charge, auto shut off, temperature control etc. When the inverter could also pass through the generated power to the fan after charging, this would be a great feature. 

I'm just wondering... where these solar roofs never offered as a Phaeton option in the USA? I noted that they are available for the Audi A8 and some others too. Perhaps Webasto made different frames, but with identical solar panels, in which case it might be possible to transfer the panel. 

Willem


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

Paximus said:


> Import to USA requires that you satisfy the need that the parts themselves are Type Approved for a Type Approved vehicle, or came from one. Again, I am sure a freight forwarder wouldn't baulk at that, it's their bread and butter.


 The main challenge I was running into is finding a forwarding service somewhere between "forward my favorite magazine from back home" and "forward this ISO shipping container". Doesn't help that I don't speak German. I figure it's going to be quite high even if I found one. Worse, it'll be hard to predict the cost of forwarding until after I commit to buying it, making the weight and package dimensions known. 

Jason


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## WillemBal (Nov 20, 2010)

jyoung8607 said:


> I figure it's going to be quite high even if I found one. Worse, it'll be hard to predict the cost of forwarding until after I commit to buying it, making the weight and package dimensions known.


 220 Euro for just the solar panel. Shipping from here to USA to your doorstep takes 1 day. I just checked that with our regular airfreight carrier. Tax tariff (if applicable) can be negligible because of the low value. Still, the total would be somewhere near 400 Euro, or 520 US$. Is this worthwhile for you? You can buy two extra batteries and a charger for that money. 

Willem


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

WillemBal said:


> Meanwhile, I looked for a suitable inverter. There are plenty of them available, mostly from Chinese manufacturers. Pretty clever ones, including trickle charge, auto shut off, temperature control etc. When the inverter could also pass through the generated power to the fan after charging, this would be a great feature.


 For just turning a fan, charging a battery and then using that for the fan would be a net loss of efficiency. It's not that it's hard to convert the voltage properly, it's that there's really exactly one point on the car you can reasonably put solar panels and that's at the sunroof. I had been looking at battery options really only because I didn't think I could get hold of the OEM solar sunroof. 



> I'm just wondering... where these solar roofs never offered as a Phaeton option in the USA? I noted that they are available for the Audi A8 and some others too. Perhaps Webasto made different frames, but with identical solar panels, in which case it might be possible to transfer the panel.


 I don't know for sure. If I had to speculate, I would say they did the math and decided it would lose money. The windshield, rear glass and windows provide some structural support and rigidity to the car in a crash or rollover, and so will the sunroof. If they change one of those elements, they probably have to run some crash tests to US NHTSA standards with that element in place. One of those silly changes, like Michael mentioned at one point with cloth seats. Consider the whole of the NAR market for a low volume car, which includes Canada. Figure a third to a half of the market gets hot enough and bright enough to make it truly useful, and consider what percentage of cars in that market would be sold with the option at a price you can reasonably charge. Balance that with the cost of making the option available, which I'm sure involves totaling one or more Phaetons along with the legalities, and then supply chain and dealer training. 

Jason


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

WillemBal said:


> 220 Euro for just the solar panel. Shipping from here to USA to your doorstep takes 1 day. I just checked that with our regular airfreight carrier. Tax tariff (if applicable) can be negligible because of the low value. Still, the total would be somewhere near 400 Euro, or 520 US$. Is this worthwhile for you? You can buy two extra batteries and a charger for that money.
> 
> Willem


 Hrm, total cost of ~400 Euro (200 sunroof / 200 shipping) is closer to what I thought it would be. What carrier did you get that from though, and how sensitive is that to the weight? The seller thought it would probably be double that shipping cost. 

Thanks for looking into it. 

Jason


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Jason:

Do you know if Ross-Tech ever incorporated the results of your research into the Phaeton HVAC controller Measured Value Blocks into their published label file for the Phaeton HVAC controller?

Michael


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## steveskinr (Oct 31, 2007)

I am also interested.

I observed a fault 00712 - Right Footwell Flap Positioning Motor (V109).

I don't know where that Flap positioning motor is located. I don't know if it is worth fixing either. I don't feel a difference in the airflow in the foot area, but I do feel a difference between left and right airflow in the front doors when I direct all the air upwards. (I didn't check the back of the car yet.)

Airflow doesn't come out of the right door in the vicinity of the right mirror. But when you select defrost, it does direct the air to both doors.

I'd be interested to know where the right flap positioning motor is and how difficult it is to get to.


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## Theresias (Feb 11, 2004)

Michael, I believe we did (early in 2012). I am currently working on adding more details for the 2010+ models (sadly not relevant to the US though) and in the process we are also revising quite a few things which may apply to those up to 2006.


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

PanEuropean said:


> Jason:
> 
> Do you know if Ross-Tech ever incorporated the results of your research into the Phaeton HVAC controller Measured Value Blocks into their published label file for the Phaeton HVAC controller?
> 
> Michael


They did indeed, more than a year ago. They also have a modified version of the Wiper Electronics file from this thread. If you pick up the current VCDS release from their website you'll have full support for both. I do still need to finish an overhaul of the TPMS file and a tweak to the Level Control coding section. I'll get to that someday...

Jason


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

steveskinr said:


> I am also interested.
> 
> I observed a fault 00712 - Right Footwell Flap Positioning Motor (V109).
> 
> ...


It's tucked inside the center console, just to the left of the glovebox. I checked my eBahn manual for the official instructions. They call for removing the instrument panel as an assembly, which requires removing much of the interior of the car - particularly on a four-seater - and calls for three people at one point. Before doing all that I'd remove the center console right-side trim and the glovebox, perhaps the J523 as well, and look to see if something creative could be done.

According to my understanding, V109 is a simple shutoff for the right footwell, nothing more. The only direct effect its failure should have is the footwell vent being stuck open or stuck closed (or in between). Temperature control should probably be OK. You could have an unexpected difference in airflow out of the other right-side vents as a result, either less or more depending on (attempted) operating mode and where the flap is stuck. Check the HVAC logical air flow diagram in the first post, lower right-hand corner.

Jason


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

Theresias said:


> I am currently working on adding more details for the 2010+ models (sadly not relevant to the US though)


They keep teasing us. The current allegation is that we'll see a 2015 model at the 2014 Detroit auto show in January.



Theresias said:


> ... and in the process we are also revising quite a few things which may apply to those up to 2006.


I'm curious what you found? When it was finished, our community-created label file was more complete and more accurate than VAS-PC. We corrected some errors and documented several things it didn't have. The only things we couldn't identify were MVB 43 field 3, MVB 45 field 1 and MVB 46.

Edit: Also never did figure out what the coding values did - shipped vehicles have 00001 or 00002 that I've seen but I couldn't figure out why. The module seems to take 00001 through 00003, but I couldn't figure out why, or discern any change in behavior if I changed my coding.

Jason


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## steveskinr (Oct 31, 2007)

Thanks very much Jason.

I think I'll live with it.


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