# could the vw scandal kill vw as a company? Seems like it is!!!!



## Vluv (May 25, 2014)

With now audi, porshe etc now involved it's getting worse and worse.

Lost brand imagine
EPA Fines
Class action law suits
Loss in sales
Criminal charges
40 billion in fines etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZI1B3ActYk&feature=youtu.be


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## Manzig (Feb 9, 2009)

They still reported an operating profit in the billions this past quarter. Our dealership has sales up over 60% since the scandal. VW is the largest car maker in the world. They'll be fine.


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## jnmarshall (Aug 25, 2011)

I think it's definitely killed the diesel motor option. But if they invest in other alternative fuels and drive systems they will be fine. If their gas/petro cars are found also to be cheating then I'd say it could be all over for them. Looks like a good time to invest in the stock at these rock bottom prices if you think it will come back


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## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

Manzig said:


> They still reported an operating profit in the billions this past quarter. Our dealership has sales up over 60% since the scandal. VW is the largest car maker in the world. They'll be fine.


This.


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## Vluv (May 25, 2014)

lost sales is the least of their worrries. I'm talking about all the other fines and fees etc. could total all their luqid money


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## charliemaxVW (Sep 2, 2014)

Manzig said:


> They still reported an operating profit in the billions this past quarter. Our dealership has sales up over 60% since the scandal. VW is the largest car maker in the world. They'll be fine.


"Kill" is a relative term in business. 

IMHO, completely "kill". No.

1) VW AG has a ton of cash reserves, plus a few assets they can sell, should the storm outdistance free cash flow.

2) The second largest holder of VW AG stock (common and preferred) is that oddly named Lower Saxony thing. The "owners" are the German Gov't and German Labor Unions. People tend to be protective of their Pension Funds. Also, one in 6.5 people in Germany are employed by carmakers. If you go one degree of separation (like outsourced distribution, parts suppliers etc ), it becomes 1 in less than 5. If ever there was a black-hole hog in one country, it is likely to go down in history as VW. TBTF is a masterpiece of an understatement.

The original $7B set aside cash-to-be-burned has already been admitted by Wolfsburg to be barely 1/3 what it will cost in cash. Plus they just added 800K gasoline/petrol cars to their massive contempt for honesty, integrity, and Law. 

Finally, most major multinational corporations can issue bonds and borrow money for 1-2%. If VW took debt to market by itself, it would probably cost about 10%. Except the credit markets know the German Gov't and People will guarantee any debt that VW issues. 

3) Dealers? This may be the greatest windfall revenues and profits period for VW US Dealers in the history of the automobile. 

a) One of the reasons VW AG became #1 for 15 minutes this spring/summer (by .005%) is because they offered 0% for 122,458,555 months financing in the US. And used margin burn to increase leases by 50% over the past year and a half. In October they passed massively unusual discounts to Dealers, increasing them by 56%.
http://tinyurl.com/nc4drqg. This behavior is not sustainable, particularly in the US where VW's minuscule 3.5% market share is further vanishing. http://tinyurl.com/pzqt9c2 This, while the overall US market is likely to sell 18.5MM units in 2015. The most ever in the history of the US.

b) Who's left? I think that the only VW owners not having to make a trip to the US Dealers are ones with 1.8T? This is the biggest wet-dream come true for Dealers. They might run out of sperm. They will have this spectacular opportunity to sell all kinds of services to their existing customer base, and an opportunity to end the owners' pain over their world-wide-known most fraudulent car in the history of mankind, with a new car. Plus VW Wolfsburg is going to be handing Dealers sweet deals. Dealers aren't pussies, or they would be in the landscaping business (whatever) by now. The old guys near retirement are looking forward to some extra sauce on their retirement. And the young lions are going to get the life-experience of opening up automatic weapons on penned herds of cust...er.. cattle.

"Kill"ed is a strong word for Germany's TBTF oligarchy-family-owned company.

Beaten more senseless than they have already proved themselves to be, may be more like it.

One thing for sure, the temporary band-aids they are running now, have a lousy shelf-life. VWoA profits/losses aren't reported separately, they just make up some unknown part of VW AG's numbers. But simply put, if you make a pizza for $10 and sell it for $9, business prospects don't improve any if you sell more of them.
http://tinyurl.com/nkuakwz


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## vwRabbitvw (Apr 24, 2011)

I don't believe VW will shut its doors due to the scandal but some pieces of the company may have to be sold to raise money. I also believe sales of VW in the US will decrease for a few years while the scandal is still fresh in consumers' minds. The same for Europe, Asia, Mexico and other hot-bed VW markets. This scandal will be talked about in future business classes in universities for decades to come just like Research In Motion's (Blackberry) fall though the reason for their fall is not related to VW's issue- obviously. 

Perhaps if VW can come out with a super cool and efficient car at a *really* good price relatively soon which the public goes bonkers over this could "save" the company from suffering a long period of time with a tarnished brand. 

This is a perfect time for the company to change its culture and improve on its mediocre reviews and mediocre customer service grades. Great companies survive crises and excel after learning from their mistakes.


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## Akakage (May 2, 2015)

The real pain will register first at the extremities: dealers. With TDI cars in quarantine and TSI cars under the bum cam cloud, who is likely to make a stop now at a VW lot when new car shopping? Parts and service have always helped dealers through tough times and slow sales but now seems different. Convincing potential buyers that a car has a clean, recall-exempt VIN isn't likely to be a welcome part of the pitch. There's zero margin for error in handling the TSI recall. Things could go very badly if this isn't sorted fast. I'm not liking the sound of March 2016 for the fix.


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## jnmarshall (Aug 25, 2011)

Akakage said:


> The real pain will register first at the extremities: dealers. With TDI cars in quarantine and TSI cars under the bum cam cloud, who is likely to make a stop now at a VW lot when new car shopping? Parts and service have always helped dealers through tough times and slow sales but now seems different. Convincing potential buyers that a car has a clean, recall-exempt VIN isn't likely to be a welcome part of the pitch. There's zero margin for error in handling the TSI recall. Things could go very badly if this isn't sorted fast. I'm not liking the sound of March 2016 for the fix.


Yeah... Let's not pity the dealers too much yet. They will be the LAST to feel any pain. VW is taking good care of them and they are currently receiving payments to make up for lost sales and lot fees for the TDIs they had to take out of inventory. Not to mention the incentive options they are receiving.
To correct your first sentence....
The real pain HAS registered first at the extremities: US THE LOYAL CONSUMERS.


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## randomkoreanguy (Jul 20, 2002)

Toyota was fine after their scandal, and GM doesn't seem too worse for the wear. Mind you both of those automakers had actual alleged deaths involved in their respective scandals. VW's scandal is minor by comparison and only really offends the EPA (because they skirted the law). Yes, some consumers are mad (understandably), but no one has died or even been injured because of this and all of them can keep driving their cars without fear of it suddenly veering off into a tree or doing anything else unexpected. Their reputation is the worst thing that has been damaged, but I'm skeptical that the average consumer will retain a strong emotional attachment to this news item once it's all in the past. The gas and hybrid cars are all fine. TDI's and diesels in general are probably dead now, but supposedly they were expecting that to happen anyway and this apparently only just hastened the inevitable death of something Jamie insists they were planning on phasing out eventually. 

VW can easily recover from this. The key, though, is in how they handle it and how they approach their future product portfolio. Personally, I think they should stop trying to be the next Toyota and focus on their strengths. I hear the GTI is still selling well in spite of the controversy, maybe they should consider expanding their enthusiast products and going after what its hardcore fans and supporters are demanding. I know I've always wanted a GTI Sportwagen (or a Golf R Variant while I'm dreaming ) and I know some people keep shouting for a new van/camper-van/all-wheel-drive Microbus thing. Sometimes if you appeal to the enthusiasts, the average consumers follow. That's how Subaru got it's stranglehold on the AWD market. I think VW should double down on those kinds of offerings instead of things like a vanilla US specific Passat. (I mean, what would've been wrong with offering a long-wheelbase Euro-Passat? But I digress.) I bet a lot of those Passat and Jetta buyers are fair-weather customers with no brand loyalty. They'll go wherever the pastures seem greenest. VW needs to load the deck with enthusiasts, bring all the lost and wandering fans back to the fold and it'll expand naturally from there. Often the fans are the harshest critics. If you make something than pleases them, they'll evangelize everyone they know and the circle will grow organically.


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## Vluv (May 25, 2014)

I feel many of you guys are minimizing the seriousness of the situation. Other companies scandels were not intentionally to defraud but just a case of bad product. This is totally different animal.


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## randomkoreanguy (Jul 20, 2002)

Vluv said:


> I feel many of you guys are minimizing the seriousness of the situation. Other companies scandels were not intentionally to defraud but just a case of bad product. This is totally different animal.


The whole point of all those court cases is usually to determine whether or not there was prior knowledge, but let's be honest here. There usually is. Someone somewhere in the company usually knows. Whether that knowledge goes all the way up the chain is a completely different thing, but the notion that Toyota had no idea, that GM had no idea, or that VW had no idea is silly. Of course someone knew. Did everyone at the corporation know? No, probably not. Did the decision-makers know? Who the hell knows. There's a bunch of people in suits out there busting their tails trying to work all that out. But the idea that any corporation is sitting there rubbing their hands together like a super-villain purposely looking for ways to trick consumers is absurd. These companies are made up of thousands of people and anyone who's ever worked for a corporation will tell you, communicating anything to the important people who need to know it isn't always as straightforward as you'd imagine. It's also sometimes ill-advised if you want to continue your career successfully. The politics and complexities honestly make me want to hide from the world somewhere. But this isn't some easy, simple, black and white issue of pointing a finger at VW and claiming they're the bad guy. From the outside, yes it looks like a single, cohesive organization, but corporations are made up of people. Lots and lots of people. And people are not uniformly identical. Someone is responsible. Maybe lots of someone's. But condemning the entire corporation and all its subsidiaries and sub-brands? Over emissions, no less. You realize that actual lives were lost in GM's scandal? But yeah, this thing about nitrogen oxide emissions is completely the same.

I would even go so far as to challenge the idea that it's a "bad product". It's a car. It does what it claims and part of its claim-to-fame is that it gets way better MPG's and power than advertised. Well, now we know why. And getting actual window-sticker power and fuel-economy after the eventual fix doesn't make it a "bad product". I find it surprising how people are getting so upset over NOx fumes. There are blue collar guys out there that inhale way more than that on a regular basis because they work with trucks whose emissions regulations are not quite as strict as they are on cars, but I don't see anyone crying over them breathing way higher than average NOx fumes. Unless you're shoving your face into the tailpipe, those claims that the extra NOx fumes are knocking years off of your life are a bit overblown. No one's chasing after old Merc diesels waving NOx flags in the name of consumer safety. Diesel trucks outnumber VW TDI's by a really huge margin and I promise you, if you're so concerned about fumes, they're a lot worse for your health than those 500k or so VW TDI's the EPA has their panties in a knot over.


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## Vluv (May 25, 2014)

Again not even the same comparison. VW's specifcially made somegthing to defraud....everyone else prolly did have prior knowledge of problems but didn't address it.


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## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

Yes, VW did intentionally cheat the system, probably because somebody knew that was the quickest way to get diesels over here and a jump in sales, and it was a foolish move. If I'm not mistaken, they tried to recall the affected cars before the EPA got wind of it, likely because someone else realized that was unethical. For reasons unknown to me, that didn't work, and they got busted. Had that recall gone through, they wouldn't be in this sensationalized mess. I also suspect that many other automakers fudge things as well and that the difference is that VW doesn't bow to lobbyists like the Big Three or even the Asian brands that are sold here, so VW is being singled out as the Bad Guy. At any rate, the fines are coming and so will the lawsuit, and once those are resolved, VW will slowly recover. In this country, they have experienced rollercoaster rides with sales, profits, and their very reputation ever since they started making water-cooled cars. This sets them back about a decade or so, but VW will get past this one way or another.


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## Vluv (May 25, 2014)

You just said VW doesn't bowdown to the lobiest so they are being labed as the bad guy..so wait ur saying they don't wanaa follow the rules..So they are "THE BAD GUY.""


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## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

I suspect nobody follows the rules to a tee, but VW doesn't pay off congressmen like the Big Three.


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## dr.GTI (Dec 24, 2001)

i remember the scandal with the run away audi 5000 back in the 80's, nobody wanted to touch an audi. They soon got over it.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

dr.GTI said:


> i remember the scandal with the run away audi 5000 back in the 80's, nobody wanted to touch an audi. They soon got over it.


Because it was not true, in the Audi case.


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## Pulaski53 (Aug 30, 2014)

dr.GTI said:


> i remember the scandal with the run away audi 5000 back in the 80's, nobody wanted to touch an audi. They soon got over it.


Thing is, Audi didn't try to deceive federal regulators or the public--the runaway 5000 issue came about through shaky journalism and was never proven. Also, I don't know how soon they got over it. If I recall, their sales were affected for years and were pulled up, at least in part, by good product in the form of the first A4.

As others have suggested, VW will need some good, competitive product in the pipeline to help them overcome dieselgate.


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## Vluv (May 25, 2014)

They have never been able to shake off the imagine of the drivers are either girls or gay tho cause often times it's true


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## robjettauk (Jul 11, 2015)

Thing is VW and Audi still make desirable cars... for Europeans at least, so I doubt it will hurt it too much. 

In America the brand isn't as strong but due to the good deals on new VW's they are still selling well. I guess stick at that, keep prices for new cars low in the US and bring out some new models in the next year or so like the Euro Passat and new Tiguan. I feel they need to bring out the pickup for the US market. Maybe even make a large truck to take on the Silverado/RAM type truck.... but i doubt they will

They will bounce back, the company is too big to fail. I also think the German government would bail them out if it came to it, its too big an employer in Germany.

Look at GM/Vauahall/Opel.... They had a massive bale out and have bounced back in Europe and the US. They offer good cars and value for money even though they don't hold the badge kudos that VW/Audi has over the pond. 

Also remember VW has Seat and Skoda which also sell well in Europe. In fact, VAG has Europe sorted and does well in China now too. 

It's just the US which is the tough nut to crack for them. But then why have a VW when you can have a nice V8 for the same money..... I keep hearing them on the interstate and wish I'd got a Dodge....


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## midcow3 (Sep 1, 2015)

*1.83 billion loss last quarter*



Manzig said:


> They still reported an operating profit in the billions this past quarter. Our dealership has sales up over 60% since the scandal. VW is the largest car maker in the world. They'll be fine.


No there was a 1.83 Billion last quarter 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...les-profit-update-emissions-scandal/74726362/


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## bluesbrothers (Sep 6, 2002)

Vluv said:


> I feel many of you guys are minimizing the seriousness of the situation. Other companies scandels were not intentionally to defraud but just a case of bad product. This is totally different animal.


Ford had the pinto. Ford knew the gas tank was at risk of exploding and killing or seriously injuring people. Ford did the math and figured it would be cheaper to pay wrongful death lawsuits than fix the car. All vw did was lie to the government so we can have a better car. 

one of many ford pinto articles i found
http://philosophia.uncg.edu/phi361-...oes-business-need-ethics/case-the-ford-pinto/


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## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

midcow3 said:


> No there was a 1.83 Billion last quarter
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...les-profit-update-emissions-scandal/74726362/


Maybe the poster was referring to the quarter before this one? Realistically, I do expect losses until this mess is resolved. Sales are holding good so far despite it, and while I realize that a $2000 loyalty discount won't help the bottom line, what it will do is reduce the bleeding, especially if those who buy the discounted cars take their VWs into dealerships for future service and maintenance. As a person with no DIY skills whatsoever, I've been doing that for years since a really good local independent guy suffered a stroke and had to close shop, anyway. Corny as it may sound to some, now I'm all the more willing to pay more for service to help my favorite car company out. Besides, I like genuine VW parts.


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## Vluv (May 25, 2014)

dudes again i know we all love vdubs here but everyone is thinking too positive. Rememeber VDUB Took the time out of their day to DEFRUAD The Gov, the consumer etc.because the product wasnt up to snuff. so much so for my so called german engineering. 

All the other scandals was a case of okay our product killed someone or whatever lets just cover it up.


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## MrCypherr (Jul 26, 2011)

I love people with low post counts. This wont kill anything. VW is too big of a company and has too much cash reserves and sister companies.


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## vwRabbitvw (Apr 24, 2011)

bluesbrothers said:


> Ford had the pinto. Ford knew the gas tank was at risk of exploding and killing or seriously injuring people. Ford did the math and figured it would be cheaper to pay wrongful death lawsuits than fix the car. All vw did was lie to the government so we can have a better car.
> 
> *one of many ford pinto articles i found*
> http://philosophia.uncg.edu/phi361-...oes-business-need-ethics/case-the-ford-pinto/


Wow. Interesting article. Ford's cost analysis proved that it would be financially better to leave the flawed gasoline tank alone. Unreal.


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## GTINC (Jan 28, 2005)

Vluv said:


> dudes again i know we all love vdubs here but everyone is thinking too positive. Rememeber VDUB Took the time out of their day to DEFRUAD The Gov, the consumer etc.because the product wasnt up to snuff. so much so for my so called german engineering......


Management didn't do this, someone deep in the company did this.


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## randomkoreanguy (Jul 20, 2002)

Vluv said:


> dudes again i know we all love vdubs here but everyone is thinking too positive. Rememeber VDUB Took the time out of their day to DEFRUAD The Gov, the consumer etc.because the product wasnt up to snuff. so much so for my so called german engineering.
> 
> All the other scandals was a case of okay our product killed someone or whatever lets just cover it up.


You keep mentioning defraud, VW didn't defraud the government. To defraud someone (or something) is to use fraud in order to obtain money. VW didn't get a single dime from the EPA or any other branch of our government. In fact, my understanding of it is that the automakers have to pay for all this safety and emissions testing to be done for their vehicles to become certified. They sidestepped the law and "cheated", but they didn't "defraud" anyone, so stop using that word repeatedly. 

Secondly, why is it somehow less of a crime and less of an outrage when people die because of automakers like Ford and GM, but completely outrageous and unacceptable when VW adds a fancy emissions algorithm in order to try and preserve maximum fuel economy and power for its customers? No one's died, no one's even hurt and all the vehicles run fine currently and can continue to be used safely and without major consequence. Even California's Air Resources Board (CARB), who is notoriously strict, has said that it's fine if customers continue to operate their vehicles and will not attempt to pull the vehicles off the road at this time. I know you feel betrayed and lied to, but give me a break. Putting human lives below emissions laws in priority is patently absurd.



MrCypherr said:


> I love people with low post counts. This wont kill anything. VW is too big of a company and has too much cash reserves and sister companies.


This. A million times this. Stop flailing your arms around and panicking. Everything is fine. VW will be fine. Its TDI customers will be fine. No one has died or is even hurt. Calm down.


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## AlexanderDerGlückliche (Nov 9, 2015)

*Don't think so...*

Here in Germany, all we hear about is it on the news affecting the US. While here all that comes are the facts that this got payed, this needs to be payed, so and so resigned etc. The image is still quite strong here but, of course VW haters are using it to trash on the company as often as they can.


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## T_Dub (Nov 9, 2006)

Vluv said:


> dudes again i know we all love vdubs here but everyone is thinking too positive. Rememeber VDUB Took the time out of their day to DEFRUAD The Gov, the consumer etc.because the product wasnt up to snuff. so much so for my so called german engineering.
> 
> All the other scandals was a case of okay our product killed someone or whatever lets just cover it up.


I think what this scandal will end up proving is that all diesels are not up to snuff. The differences are in the methods the companies used to pass the tests. VW used software, so its easy to prove that they did it intentionally. If MB or BMW did other things to make their engines produce less NOx during tests then they are just as guilty as VW in my view. The pollution from all diesels is going to be the same within an order of magnitude.

And no it wont kill VW. The Europeans don't seem to care much, and I doubt its a big deal in China. It may be a big deal in the US for a while but thats a very very small portion of the overall business.

Any of these result in an automaker going under?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009–11_Toyota_vehicle_recalls

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch_scandal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takata_Corporation#Defective_airbag_recalls_.282013-present.29


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## Sixtysomething (Aug 7, 2003)

Also, the media is largely to blame for John Q Public's reaction. When I recently traded my 2010 New Beetle in to get back into a Passat, one Nissan dealership that had a pre-owned Passat tried to knock about $1200 off KBB Trade-In, if not $1500, for it was in excellent condition. It was also a gas 2.5, but the salesman said, "Nobody's looking at Volkswagens these days except you! We'll be lucky to move this at all!" Whatever.........Needless to say, I went somewhere else.


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## g60vw (Oct 3, 2002)

MrCypherr said:


> I love people with low post counts. This wont kill anything. VW is too big of a company and has too much cash reserves and sister companies.


Seriously. Half of that one guys posts are in this thread. There is evidence that GM knew there were problems with their ignition switches YEARS ago and elected to change manufactures, but keep the same part number so that it wouldn't be discovered. That is wrong, and people DIED because of it.

Of course, as a very long time VW fan I am completely oblivious to this. It won't effect my love for their brand at all. What I am disgusted by, truly disgusted, are these short termers looking for a handout. It's like they feel that VW somehow raped their sister while they were out driving around getting 10% better mpg's and extra power than they were promised, most likely telling people how great their car was, and now they feel like they were stupid. No, you weren't stupid, but now you are.

Good day.


Garth- VW sympathizer since 1997.


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## Fifteen (Dec 30, 2013)

I market for a VW dealership, and sales have been wonderful, although as it was state earlier, dealers will be the last one to feel it.

I don't think this will kill VW, there are many loyal customers who repeat purchase from VW. I do think we're going to see a re-structure in the company, and lots of instability in the leadership for a few years.

That being said, I'll absolutely be buying another VW when the time comes, probably not a diesel though, since it seems like there's some smoke and mirrors on performance/MPG there.


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## Cabdriver (Jul 26, 2000)

Naw VW will be fine in the long run. At the rate new news headlines are produced this will become a distant memory in less than a year. The diesel franchise will suffer though IMO but ever increasing fuel economy standards will drive innovation to make diesel reliably clean.
This, keep in mind, is not the first time emissions defeat devices have been installed by VW: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...on-emissions-almost-as-old-as-pollution-tests
I think the rules regarding emissions defeat devices where implemented because of VWs first attempt.


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