# HPA puck, pendulum upgrade



## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

Wooot look what I got in the mail today!!!


It has little bubbles in part of it like swiss cheese. Gave them a call and they said its all good that's perfectly normal.


Finally, my neighbor had his SRT10 out today due to the awesome weather.


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## vento86 (Oct 13, 2008)

viper:thumbup:


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## LampyB (Apr 2, 2007)

post up after the install and let us know how the puck feels. i plan on picking this up next month. also i'd like to know how the vibrations feel as well with the black puck, because there are 3-4 choices in stiffness and i haven't decided which one to buy.


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

vento86 said:


> viper:thumbup:


Yeah IRP (oreily raceway park) is right down the street from me. Its funny because the closer you get to the track, the more cars you see sitting in peep's driveways that are worth more than the house. One guy prob lives in a $40k home right next to track and has a Ford GT in his front yard every day LOL....

his daily driver is a smart car ROFL. The viper guy drives an AMG boat for his daily :thumbup:



LampyB,

I'll post before/after videos. I have a poly insert now that will be the before, HPA 80 series puck will get installed tomorrow since I'm out of time today for wrenching =( 


Was working on the San Juan 21 today!!!


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## vento86 (Oct 13, 2008)

tchilds said:


> Yeah IRP (oreily raceway park) is right down the street from me. Its funny because the closer you get to the track, the more cars you see sitting in peep's driveways that are worth more than the house. One guy prob lives in a $40k home right next to track and has a Ford GT in his front yard every day LOL....
> 
> his daily driver is a smart car ROFL


when i was a tech at mercedes this customer had a twin turbo viper.. it was stupid fast. no traction until 5th and that was his fun car.. his daily was a sl65 amg twin turbo v12.:laugh:he had more money than brains


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

vento86 said:


> when i was a tech at mercedes this customer had a twin turbo viper.. it was stupid fast. no traction until 5th and that was his fun car.. his daily was a sl65 amg twin turbo v12.:laugh:he had more money than brains



Yeah this thing doesn't need twin turbo's. Its stupid fast is it is. His last viper was the v8 with a drop top so the hard top w/srt10 is just pure sex. It sounds soooo good too. My Harley is still louder though! We've had the contest to prove it hahaha just don't ask the neighbors about it.

He doesn't mod cars, he mods bikes :banghead: Then again when you drive an AMG and viper daily, I guess you need a turbo'd busa to get your blood pumping.


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

LampyB said:


> post up after the install and let us know how the puck feels. i plan on picking this up next month. also i'd like to know how the vibrations feel as well with the black puck, because there are 3-4 choices in stiffness and i haven't decided which one to buy.


OH just caught this. My puck is the lighter dark one, GREY I think but some call it an off black I suppose. It is the 80 series so vibrations should be minimal. Even if you go with the 75 its not like you will notice the extra engine movement. What people don't seem to understand about these HPA mounts is they are "tuned". The "tuning" is to reduce vibrations, not to increase engine movement. So if you choose the 75 you're going to have same wheel hop as the 90 honestly. ALL of the HPA poly pucks are over tripple the density of OEM butyl rubber stuff. 

I picked the 80 because I actually WANT to feel a little bit of my engine. If you don't want vibrations just get the 75, its not going to reduce the movement noticeably less than the 90. Resonance and harmonics are a funny thing. The density affects how the vibrations are carried through the car at what frequency, based on the different motors. However, the density does not vary enough to affect the MECHANICAL results of reducing engine movement.

Otherwise they wouldn't call these "tuned". They would just be stage 1, stage 2, stage 3. But these aren't stages because they all work the same bro.

Now if you're getting into competition and literally measuring your engine movement on a micrometer, balancing all four corners of your car, messing with camber, etc etc etc... well obviously go with the 90 as you WILL notice in a competitive sense. However, line both the rabbt with the 90 and the rabbit with the 75 up next to eachother, they'll have the same amount of wheel hop because once it is eliminated the only thing increasing durometer does is transmit more vibrations if you're not COMPETING in a very technical sense, as in at the track hardcore. Which is why my autocross car has SOLID engine mounts that I welded together with no bushings in them.

Further more, this isn't a contest. Don't feel like somebody else's car is superior for having a harder puck when honestly the only difference is the stupid vibrations. Now, if you could put a stiffer puck in before vibrations got out of control, then they would have "tuned" a stiffer puck for the rabbit. So just go from the baseline and think of it as increasing vibrations, not reducing wheel hop.


INA also has a puck made out of OE rubber type compound. Their butyl rubber or whatever it is will be far more comfortable than poly, while just as effective. That may be another option for you to consider.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

i have my 85 and i LOVE IT. for the first 1000 miles, the car RATTLED on 1500 rpms... now? its a LOT better.

shifts are still CRISP! precise, solid!  i honestly, love it! plus, it made the exhaust a lot more sportier! you def hear all 5 cyls! its awesome.

overall, chaging the mounts made the car another type of beast! i recommend it whole hartedly! and you HAVE to drive the car after the install, so that it breaks the mounts in.


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

Video of before with lower mount poly reinforcement bushing inserted into the stock OEM rubber bushing.

Okay that video didn't work. Try this direct link until I learn to embed this video. 
http://s760.photobucket.com/albums/xx250/tchilds3404/?action=view&current=IMG_0510.mp4




The after video with HPA puck complete replacement bushing installed will happen TOMORROW. I'll probably shoot a better video of the motor when it isn't running cold too for a before video, tomorrow. Apparently I need a tripod too for my little iphone lol.



If you look at the first video you can see where the mount is literally "rebounding" against the forces of the engine, causing an undesirable movement that isn't even there with the OEM only. This is the evidence of my mount actually adding movement that the OEM would not, just from combining poly and rubber into the same mount. This solution is far from ideal! Inserts suck for everything other than reducing wheel hop! They compromise your car on every other level :thumbdown:


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

thygreyt said:


> i have my 85 and i LOVE IT. for the first 1000 miles, the car RATTLED on 1500 rpms... now? its a LOT better.
> 
> shifts are still CRISP! precise, solid!  i honestly, love it! plus, it made the exhaust a lot more sportier! you def hear all 5 cyls! its awesome.
> 
> overall, chaging the mounts made the car another type of beast! i recommend it whole hartedly! and you HAVE to drive the car after the install, so that it breaks the mounts in.



You say the exact same thing every time you put a new mount in the car :laugh: Every time someone uses a word like "crisp" "solid" and "precise" (this has nothing to do with precision...) in an engine mount thread, users should have to donate a dollar to the tex. :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

So I started to pull out the old poly insert. It was in pieces that had been chewed up and ground together. They hardened into glass like substance from all the heat and friction. 

Pretty lose, the pieces basically fell out and everything was broken, shrunken, and smashed up. 

So everyone wants to cut and pull out their old poly insert/center piece. I found there was no reason to so I just hit it with the cordless drill. I started with a small bit then stepped up to a bigger bit. You only need two small holes. 

Then POP it just cracked apart under its own tension. Next I just used some tiny needle nose plyers and wedged them in between the subframe/bushing to force it out! 



Finally, I pressed in the new bushing of course! There are tons of great DIY's already so that's all I have to offer thanks for watching!

Will review once it breaks in a little!


Pretty easy only took me about 20 minutes including time to jack the car up and get out my tools.


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## b1aCkDeA7h (May 27, 2008)

Hmm, I wonder how utterly destroyed my BSH insert is.

I got an 80 but haven't had time to install it yet. That, in conjunction with an 034 upper dogbone mount and just about every piece Whiteline makes for the MK5 will be going into my Rabbit the weekend before Thanksgiving.

Should be a fun ride when all is said and done.


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

I just wanted to add, don't drill into your subframe if you use this method! If you drill too deep in the wrong spot it could do major damage to the area your bushing inserts into. Stay within the two outer holes I drilled on the puck I removed and you will be fine. I drilled three but you only need two holes. If you go outside those lines and drill too deep you could crack the mounting point for this bushing really bad. :banghead:

Just take your time and don't be heman. If you see metal shavings use your head and don't make more.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

tchilds said:


> I just wanted to add, don't drill into your subframe if you use this method! If you drill too deep in the wrong spot it could do major damage to the area your bushing inserts into. Stay within the two outer holes I drilled on the puck I removed and you will be fine. I drilled three but you only need two holes. If you go outside those lines and drill too deep you could crack the mounting point for this bushing really bad. :banghead:
> 
> Just take your time and don't be heman. If you see metal shavings use your head and don't make more.


i removed mine with a dremel and a screw driver. 










and yes, its easy to keep on going.


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

Well the vibrations were horrible with the 80a. A few days and several hundred miles later, the vibrations are minimal. At first it felt like I had a broken engine mount, the thing was rattling and what not taking off SO BAD. In any gear under 2k it felt broken.

Now the vibrations are minimal, about like they were with the original poly insert. The motor is now linked to the car, no more blipping the throttle over speed bumps or feathering the clutch in reverse. Its solid as all get out now and the vibes are pretty minimal!!!

Definitely go with the 75 if you HATE vibrations, but I'm running the 80 and it could definitely be a lot worse before I'd consider taking it out. When I stomp on the gas and get wheel hop now, its over in an INSTANT and the tires grab the ground as soon as they leave it, hurling the car forward. No more uncontrolled wheel hop, bogging down motor, or loose feeling of the motor rocking back and forth when I lift off the throttle while in gear.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

i dont know how to explain it, but when you drive with all the mounts, you feel connected to the car. its awesome!


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

Yeah I only have the HPA puck. If I had all the mounts I doubt there would be much more improvement over just this puck, making the basically stock power I am making anyway. Some day when the upper wear out I would love to replace them with something fancy but they're pretty good and not that important in a FWD car, as far as motor movement goes.

I can be certain of one thing though. With the lower mount being this stuff the uppers are no longer balanced and will wear out even faster than before. This seems counter intuitive, as less engine movement should = less bushing wear right? Well if all the mounts are not "balanced" in a FWD car, from my experience, the worn/stock mounts will crap out pretty quickly. I don't understand the physics behind this but it has happened on my other FWD cars that I put solid lower engine mounts on 100% of the time.

I'm going to just inject the holes in the stock OEM mounts with this gasket making stuff I use, pretty amazing stuff. I made shims to put inside the mounts with the OEM bushings too, that compress the OEM material a lot more than the stock mount. If that doesn't hold up I will definitely be replacing them with poly inserts.


One other thing about this motor mount, my car actually shifts the subframe around now. I heard it popping/clunking around hard turns under heavy throttle and the sweet VW bias brake system doing its thing for the first time yesterday. First time in 45k miles I've heard my subframe shift. So this thing definitely transmits the torque to the subframe a lot faster than the stock OEM rubber mount that kinda bounced the motor off the subframe before it would settle into place and put solid power down.

Not hearing my subframe clunk/pop for 45k miles is pretty good imo considering I auto x, circuit, and tow 2,000lbs w/this rabbit.


Long story short, GET THIS PUCK STYLE BUSHING FOR YOUR ENGINE MOUNT IT WILL MAKE YOUR CAR LEGIT!!!!


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

tchilds said:


> I don't understand the physics behind this but it has happened on my other FWD cars that I put solid lower engine mounts on 100% of the time.


If one is absorbing less energy than the rest that energy is redistributed to the others. There are 3 mounts in our cars. so theoretically each one is absorbing 33.33...% of the engines movement. Now make it so one is only absorbing 10% (proportionately) of the engines movement and the remaining two have to absorb 45% each. That's why i probably wont bother doing this upgrade until i can afford to do all of them at the same time.


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

yeah on the suspension tuning forum all the guys talk about how its important to balance the density of your motor mounts. probably a good idea bro. I just not trying to drop $1,000 on motor mounts before this car even breaks 200whp. So instead I just went with best bang for the buck.


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## HIBB 304 (Nov 8, 2008)

I'm about to do this to. Got a new 75 one for 100 shipped. :laugh:


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## eatrach (May 13, 2004)

awesome write up tchilds.
If i do get one, i might have someone to do it. My days on working on cars is coming to a halt (almost).
BTW, speaking of viper, i used to sell cars. We had a viper. Took it out. Was driving on the FWY, in 5 th gear, put my foot down, this thing went from 60 to 100 in like ridiculous short amount of time; just a torque monster!


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

HIBB 304 said:


> I'm about to do this to. Got a new 75 one for 100 shipped. :laugh:


You're going to love it. Just be really careful with your super expensive subframe while installing this piece. You might also look into the Audi bolts if you don't have them in your subframe yet. Would be a nice combo job to do w/this mount, as its all located in same spot. You can find the audi bolts for about $3 at the right stealerships, shop around and pay shipping if you have to. ECS also has a shim and bolt kit for our subframe.

They still haven't gotten back to me on what material the shims are made out of. I'm not running them because I don't want to mess with corrosion of dissimilar metals. The bolts are always a good idea though!


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

HIBB 304 said:


> I'm about to do this to. Got a new 75 one for 100 shipped. :laugh:


i got my 85 for 100 shipped too!


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

I wanted to buy a used one but do not know what series was affected by the recall from HPA. they had a bad batch go out that had terrible vibrations, more so than normal. after they got a few cars in they recalled them but i don't know what density they were.

don't quote me on this, but off the top of my head I believe it was the 85's that were messed up. i also do not know if HPA required customers to return their bad pucks for good ones, or if they just shipped good ones out and everyone kept their bad ones....


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## HIBB 304 (Nov 8, 2008)

thygreyt said:


> i got my 85 for 100 shipped too!


Freakin super sweet deal man Couldn't pass on it being new and all.


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## [email protected] (Mar 9, 2007)

tchilds said:


> ...don't quote me on this, but off the top of my head I believe it was the 85's that were messed up. i also do not know if HPA required customers to return their bad pucks for good ones, or if they just shipped good ones out and everyone kept their bad ones....


The 75's (red) were the mounts we had a small issue with...they were a little harder than advertised (more like 80a) which caused some vibration in some Mk6 cars. 2.5 Inline 5's would not have had an issue.

FYI, All exchanges were completed, and the old mounts are back in our possession...


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## pennsydubbin (Mar 3, 2010)

tchilds said:


> Wooot look what I got in the mail today!!!


man yours is nice and new looking. when i got mine it looked like it was used already and was oily as if it was cleaned up:sly:


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## LampyB (Apr 2, 2007)

where did you guys get this mount for $100? was it new?


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

no they finding them used lol. dude the price is worth it, new or otherwise. I'm telling you these things work like a charm and resolve the issue with the mount caving in so bad and bouncing around.

Today I was taking my usual route and there is a small overpass on the highway that I hit at 60mph every day of the week, twice a day. Normally when I hit the bump that this bridge forms my car would bounce sideways a little then regain traction (long sweeping turn up hill w/bump in it) an instant later. Well my car no longer bounces sideways on that bump since I've installed this mount. It definitely improved handling. I mean I hit the same bump, same speed w/cruise on every day in same lane. I'm certain the mount fixed the issue. I'm telling you this thing is magic.

Also, I have retorqued the subframe/engine mount bolt several times so I know for a fact it wasn't loose because it never came loose in the past. It is the puck that made the difference i'm 100% sure.



vad,

ty for the clarification!!


thygreyt,

I would rather use the official HPA method of channel locks and removing than middle than a high speed grinder or dremmel. Reason being, the higher rev tools will grind through the subframe w/out you even noticing like a hot knife through butter. The drill bit method w/cordless is much safer than using high speed tool since it won't just push through that thin ring in the subframe if peeps go too deep.

if you guys doubt your drilling abilities, just take the extra time to do it the HPA way. :thumbup:


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## HIBB 304 (Nov 8, 2008)

LampyB said:


> where did you guys get this mount for $100? was it new?


Found mine one here from a another user. And it's brand NEW,not used.


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## thygreyt (Jun 7, 2009)

Well, around the mount its all metal... And I was "dremelling" at low rpms... If you are careful, you shoulnt damage anything.


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## vwluger22 (Jan 25, 2005)

We used a sawzall one mine. 



I wouldn't recommend it thought.


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## DerekH (Sep 4, 2010)

vwluger22 said:


> We used a sawzall one mine.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't recommend it thought.


I loled.


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## vwluger22 (Jan 25, 2005)

Just realized auto correct changed a few words on me. : /


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

thygreyt said:


> Well, around the mount its all metal... And I was "dremelling" at low rpms... If you are careful, you shoulnt damage anything.


If people drill beyond the two outer holes I marked, the surround in the subframe for the bushing is a thin metal ring that if even drilled half way though will crack and break. it is only about 1/4" thick material to drill through. If peeps drill where I marked, worse thing that will happen is hole in the mount itself which is removable.

You also were within the area that is safe to drill from your pics FYI.


I just don't want to influence anyone to drill a blind hole through the thin metal surround in the subframe. If you guys don't understand where to drill or what to drill with..., please just use the HPA method as it is 100% safe and won't take you that much longer.


The official HPA way can be found here http://www.hpamotorsport.com/isheets/HVW-904-Core Interlock Dog Bone Mount Install Instructions.pdf and does not put yourself or your car at risk as long as you use proper jack, jack stands, and wheel chocks correctly. Make sure you wear safety glasses as metal bits can fly and your face will be close.


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