# Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!!



## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

My digi II cant provide enough fuel for my 2.0 Engine. What is the best way to increase the fueling? I have CSW chip and still running on lean side. 
Ps. All sensors are new


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## DST VR6 (Sep 27, 2001)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

adjust your MAF sensor. there should be a small allen bolt you can adjust. if it isnt noticeable, you need to drill the metal thats in theway out. it was designed to be tamper proof except for the dealerships


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (vwgroundzero)*

The MAF adjustment is only for idle. Since Digi is lambda feedback it wont make any difference except for idle


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## DST VR6 (Sep 27, 2001)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

mine adjust air/fuel...intake manifold has idle adjustment screw..


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (vwgroundzero)*

We should be able to rescale the fueling on digifant-2 to support big injectors. Maybe 30-42# , drop me an email. We've done it on digi-1, no reason we can't make an emissions friendly large injector for digi-2. The higher compression (?) might help it idle better even. The 42#'ers were a little rough on the idle side on 8:1 motor until we loaded it (a/c on).
30#'ers with 3.5bar base fuel pressure good for about 220whp and 42#'ers well do the math.. If you are near atlanta and want to do something like that, we'd probably do it free of charge. Injectors are cheap. $100 for 4 30#'ers, and we can smash your fpr to raise it up a half bar or so for even more flowage.
Things like no-lag, boost(?), nitrous control, rev limits,fuel maps we can probably do custom for anyone..

Drop me an aim on always on..

Reason we have this pic (damn she's hot)..










[Modified by mrkrad, 7:56 AM 9-9-2002]


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## ONLY 8V (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (mrkrad)*

Digifant II supplies more than enough fuel for a high performance 2.0L provided you at least have the AMS chip. I ran a highly tunned 2.0L (~165-70 hp) with stock digi II injection and AMS chip and ran 14.9's with full interior.
Jason


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (ONLY 8V)*

is that AMS generic chip or make to your specs? did you attach a air fuel gauge to see how your engine runs? If yes can you describe it?
Thanks.


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## ONLY 8V (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

the chip was standard AMS software...IMO because fuel is controled by the O2 sensor and it keeps things at stoich then there was no need to update the software for the fuel. Maybe could have benifited from timing curve updates since I was running up wards of 7000-7200 rpms, however with the knock sense still instact I again didn't think I'd get $50 worth of performace.
I did run my Voltmeter (which has the ability to graph voltage changes to my laptop) connected to the O2 sensor and never hit a lean point, for the most part the fuel remind at stoich or a little rich (at WOT). 
Jason


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (ONLY 8V)*

I have ported head with 272 cam and I cant rev it past 5500 rpm. It just run out of power


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## ONLY 8V (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

BTW Kicker I checked the link on your car.....looks like you don't even have a P&P head or a big cam, trust me fuel is not the problem....your not getting enough air in that puppy.
Jason


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (ONLY 8V)*

That page has not been updated. Thats my old 1.8 8v engine.


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## ONLY 8V (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

What have you got on top of that 2.0L now?
Jason


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## ONLY 8V (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (ONLY 8V)*

I see it now....what do you have for exaust? I ran a TT race downpipe (with a cat fitted) and a TT 2 1/4" cat back, single Ultra Flow muffer. In addtion I ported both my intake makifold runners and TB section as well as the exhaust manifold. A key aspect is that TT race downpipe with 2" primaries.
Also, you may want to check the spray patter of your injector....you may want to get them cleaned and blue printed.
Also what are the specs on the 272? (lift mainly)
And what are the flow bench numbers on the head with the P&P? Valve size?

[Modified by ONLY 8V, 10:09 PM 9-10-2002]


[Modified by ONLY 8V, 10:10 PM 9-10-2002]


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (ONLY 8V)*

I have digi 1.8 8v head. Head is shaved to produce 11:1 comp. The intake and exhaust are both ported. Valves have 3 angle.
The Intake man. is also bored up a lilttle bit. I am using Brospeed header and tt 2.25" piping with 16V cat.
I am also using k&N and custom made cold air intake. Plus CSW Digi chip.
When I accelerate my air fuel gauge jumps from slight lean to slight rich. As I go faster the gauge movement increases with same pattern. Around 5000 rpm the gauge shows steady slight rich and maintains it all the way to red line. 
The strange thing is after 5000 rpm the sound of engine changes and power drops. It is most obvious in first gear.
RPM climbs very fast and as soon as it hit 5000 it stops and after half a second it starts to move again with less power.
In other gears I dont notice any lag around 5000 rpm but the power still drops. 

PS> I have light flywheel as well.


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

I dunno, that sounds like your WOT switch isn't doing it. 
Or the chip isn't programmed correctly. When you mash it, the closed loop (up/down cycling) should kick out instantly, not .5 not 1 not 2 seconds later, and the programmed maps should kick in to dial in your perfect air fuel ratio till redline.
I know with digifant-1 we had to recode the emissions control to do this properly, but we're working with boost so its Even more so important to kick in fuel enrichment.
I need to get my hands on a digifant-2 car one of these days and hook up our wideband and our digifant pms system and drive around and see whats up. as i said they all share the same codebase so figuring it out should be a piece of cake. 
If anyone has a digifant-2 chip they can send me that might be cool too. I can bust out ida pro and see whats going on.
I was thinking about doing the PMS system to digifant-2 like we're developing for digifant-1. It's pretty much the same hardware inside the box with with a different software program on it. Very little hardware difference imo.
btw, to assume one chip will do everything is a very brave assumption. Within reason digifant (any version) will do a decent job, but it is not adaptive like motronic, so every engine mod can easily affect the programming on the chips in a big way. Probably why we have over 100+ versions of our digi-1 chips.



[Modified by mrkrad, 11:26 AM 9-11-2002]


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (mrkrad)*

Well my WOT switch works fine. I checked it. I even used a different ECU and it was the same. Digi I is different than Digi II since Digi II uses Mass air flow vs Digi I mas air pressure. The problem with Digi II is that after 4000 rpm the MAF is fully open so computer doesnt know how much more air engine is sucking.


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

I was wondering could my valve timing be off? 
I am using ABA block with 1.8 shaved head. I am using 2.0 Timing belt.
How do I check for my valve timing? 
I have set it in a way that OT mark on my Cam gear align with OT mark on plastic cover. 
Is there another way to check for valve timing?
My adjustable cam gear has Positive (+) and negative (-) adjustment. 
I assume + means advance and - means retard!!! am I right?


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

Don't matter. The chip can be custom modified or if want to get creative you could alter the size of the air vane, or create an intentional leak, and alter the software custom for the application.
too bad ya'll aren't around atlanta. You'd have some pimp ass running digifant-2 cars


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## ONLY 8V (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

Kicker....its possible that with the shaving of the head you may be a tooth off....you're going to need to "retime" the car are just for the tooth (or less) with the cam gear. Basically the timing mark on your head is off now, so the factory mark on the head is somewhat useless.
Also, because you increase compression to 11:1 you're probably knocking like mad and you knock sensor is compensating for the knock at the high rpm by retarding your ignition timing. If this is the case you're screwed because your going to have to run a quality octane booster or >95 octane gas.
Also, what are the spec on the cam itself??? If you don't know tell me which brand it is and I can get the numbers....I assume you're running a hydro head?

Again, trust me fuel on a properly working Digifant II system is not the problem....you even said it yourself, you are still running rich.....you've got a timing problem.


[Modified by ONLY 8V, 4:50 PM 9-11-2002]


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (ONLY 8V)*

I am running a Shrick (sp?) 272. It is a hydro head.
It doesnt sound like knocking. what I dont understand is that Digifant provides fuel
based on RPM not air flow. The Mass air flow is fully open after 4000 rpm anyways. So
how can a modified engine which is pulling more air uses same amount of fuel after 4000 rpm?
My car only runs rich around 5000 rpm but it doesnt always run rich.
I will try to set the cam timing first and add a washer to my KS to make it less sensetive.


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

Ps. How do I set my cam timing now? Is there any way to know for sure?


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

by shaving the head you you retard the cam timing. A cam timing gear is always a good idea when you do such. Shaving the head also changes the combustion chamber geometry which can be bad. They spent alot of time designing the pistons VS chamber size to be optimal (well not that much time on the 8v's cause it sucks) but thats another thread.
I'll have to look at the code, but you could always alter the fueling over 4000rpm to increase pulse width blindly, it works for the most part. Assume when at 100% vane and XX rpm then give this amount of fuel. It's not the most elegant way of doing things but it works.
Those vane boxes send out linear ranges last time i looked at one, it could be possible to simply replace that booger with a mass air flow from say a stock mustang (cheap) or 2.0 or whatever, and remap the chip to work in a logarithmic map (maf's are almost always non-linear). 
I'm going to have to dig into the guts of digifant-2. I'd love to just replace the whole system (and program) with speed density. There are so many d-2 ecu's and harnesses in the junkyard it would make a perfect PMS platform. (maf or map). But since im a boost junkie i think map would be better. or both








for n/a the MAF replacement would be sweet. For boost, the map would be sweet. For the ultimate kicker both would do the trick.. The cpu has enough power to process both a MAF an Map sensor somewhat like the digifant-3 ecu's which have 1 bar map sensors in them. 
This is the basis of the early motronic (7.0?) system. Use a map sensor in full throttle mode and take the MAF readings for corrections based on egt/o2 sensor feedback.
Without all the junk of obd and emissions (lev,ulev,tlev,etc) the batch fire cpu has more than enough clock cycles to process the information, and the rom's last time i had a peek have more than enough free space to code in a few more maps.
On digi-1 i can program 2^3 (8) complete fuel and timing maps in one chip.. digi-2 didn't look much fatter code wise. Matter of fact alot of it is the same code..
Lemme go find vwpat i think he said i can borrow one is his jetta's to muck with since he's local..
We (sns) are very interested in the digifant-2 market because there are lot less scarce than the digi-1 and based on very similar hardware and platform software.. So moving between the two shouldn't be terribly time consuming other than needing a car to mucky muck with. 
Anyone got one for sale cheap in atlanta?


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## ONLY 8V (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

quote:[HR][/HR].... So
how can a modified engine which is pulling more air uses same amount of fuel after 4000 rpm?[HR][/HR]​Simple, the Lamda (O2 sensor) control forces the motor to stay at a near stoich level. In addtion after 4000 rpm are pre-programed fuel maps....the AFM is not the only component that determines fuel....its the o2 sensor/Lamda control (the biggie), intake air temp sensor, coolant temp sensor, and pre-programmed fuel maps.


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (ONLY 8V)*

If so why does Lambda system still tries to maintain a stoich after 4000 rpm? It only goes in to rich in third gear and up.
3rd gear the 02 keeps adjusting the fuel upto 5200 rpm then it goes into slight rich.
4th and 5th gear it stops adjusting the fuel after 4000 rpm, however, if I let go of gas and back on the gas it tries to maintain stoich again. In first and second gear in maintains stoich all the way to red line. 
I am confused


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

almost sounds like the same digifant-1 lag. Over in g60 land we found the digifant code worked in two specific modes: Closed-loop, and open-loop.
If your care is equipped with a WOT microswitch, after it is warmed up. Use some tape or hotwire such switch so that it's always on. If you notice the problem above go away, then it would be safe to assume the engineers used very similar code as digi-1. We had to eliminate this problem because it cause erratic and slow response to fuel enrichment, and a generally erratic air fuel. While it might not be such a big deal for n/a motors, in forced induction going from 0-15psi in .1 seconds would cause a tremendous problem.
One way to test this theory is to cruise at 3000 rpm's in 4th gear, watch the air fuel gauge cycle up and down, then slam it (pedal to the metal) into 3rd gear. If there is any sort of flutter in the air/fuel gauge, and its not dead even on the correct air fuel range (ie goes lean or still flutters), then that would be a sign of the "digifant-lag" which plagued digi-1 for so many years.
All of the digifant's shared similar cpu, design and codebase. Hopefully we'll be able to bring some of the work we've done for digi-1 to the digi-2 world soon. The cars share many characteristics, and just reading around hear and poking around with some older digifant's i can clearly see many parts that resemble each other in the varying years.
Someone here should borrow me their stock chip, so i can take a peak at the code and see whats really going on. I'll send it back, and maybe send it back with a little somethin' added to boot


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (mrkrad)*

I did what you said. In third gear around 3000 rpm I slammed it. The gauge kept bouncing from one side to other up to 4900 rpm. Then it kept steady in slight rich 
zone up to rev limiter.
I taped the WOT switched and no difference. Some one told me WOT switch is ignored by ECU before 4000 rpm.


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

hmm. Maybe for n/a motors thats okay, but i would say that sucks ass. You sure your wot switch is making connectivity? The whole idea behind the enrichment maps is to use them when you press that button.
When i press the wot switch, my air fuel nails its air fuel according to the programming i put into place (this is my digi-1 no lag mod).
I'd have to say based on your feedback, there is a problem in that code as well. The whole basis of having "enrichment maps" is so they "enrich" when you press the "enrichment switch (wot)", not later on.
But alas, the older chips for digifant-1 were coded similarily. This caused what us g60'ers called "The digifant lag" or lack of responsiveness. It must be some emissions or smog thing intended to raise mpg or something, but i'll take a mpg or two off any day for consistent, accurate fueling when i demand it.
As i said, someone needs to poop a chip for me to look at and disassemble. My guess is i'll find very similar emissions control code. The last chip i looked at was digifant (predecessor to digi-1 & digi-2). It was used on the mk2 polo GT -GT40 (g40 supercharger). 
Play around with it some more. I guess my question would be?
This unstable and unprecise fueling is probably due to the vw programming...
But do you want it gone? Do you want your fuel to be dead on when you hit that wot switch? Or does it really not make a difference.
I've never owned a digifant-2 car with and air fuel gauge so I can't really say that digifant-2 has "digifant-lag". Thats why i'm asking you guys to give me some feedback (and a stock chip). If you are near the ATL, i'll be glad to pop your cherry (ecu) and work on the code.
So the question still remains? Does digifant-2 fuel enrichment (and thus the power) behave in an erratic and immeasureable domain? 
And if that question is yes, would it be worthwhile to umm, fix this problem?
I gotta find someone with digi-2 in the atlanta area to muck with their car and squeeze all i can squeeze out of the 93 octane. I'm sure there's a good bit more power than stock, and if any inconsistencies exist i could eliminate them the same way i did on digi-1.
But the bottom line of course, is it even worth the effort. You know we (sns) are in the chip tuning business. My primary intentions of digi-2 is to see if its a viable platform for MAP or MAF conversion using junk parts, and to integrate digi-logging (datalogging of sensors,etc), and ultimately turn it into a PMS system. 
The cost of digging up digi-2 units is much less as i've said than digi-1 units (due to lack of g60 sales in the usa).
think about what i said above, if you are around here bring your car over anytime and i'll poke around with the code..


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (mrkrad)*

I wish there was some one else who I can compare my results with. According to the info that I have Digi II ignores WOT signal upto 4000 rpm after that it fuels based on the program. My WOT switch works. I tested it many times. I have used 2 different chips. Stock and CSW chip. Both act the same. The rich fueling makes a difference. When the Green lights light up on my gauge the car starts to pull much better. (kinda like a turbo kicking in)


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

does peak torque occur at 4000 rpm? That might make sense if that is the case, but if peak torque occurs before 4000rpm, then that kind of fueling makes no sense whatsoever.


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (mrkrad)*

I just looked at my old 1.8 engine dyno. Max TQ starts at 4000 and pulls to 5100 rpm then drops


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## ONLY 8V (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

run some wire from your knock sensor to a millivolt meter in your car.....I'm curious to see if your knock sensor is detecting knock and retarding your timing greatly at the upper parts of your RPM.
Also, did you time the ignition per the Bentley, i.e. +6 at 2500 rpm with coolant temp disocnnected, etc etc???
Again, I still don't think what you have is a fuel problem.
Also, try putting the stock chip/ECU back in....just curious to see if that is the culpret
Jason


[Modified by ONLY 8V, 6:08 PM 9-12-2002]


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (ONLY 8V)*

I have adjusted the timing as you said. I switched the ECU and it still didnt pull high rpm. 
I am also running 94 octane gas.


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

knock signals would hardly be visible with a readout like that. They tend to also wear out. You think a knock sensor is good for more than 60K miles you got alot coming to ya. 
We're thinking about trading one of our busted g60's to bring in a digi-2 car into the sns fleet for some real tuning. We'll be able to datalog from within the ecu and see whats really going on..


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (mrkrad)*

You mean KS go bad? Do they get more sensetive or less sensetive? I never heard of KS going bad!!!


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## ONLY 8V (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

Center up your cam gear and try moving the timing belt a tooth forward and then one back and see if that make any difference. If fuel was the problem, it wouldn't be at 5000 rpms it would be > 7200 (if it could spin that high and still make power).
Also, what are the flow bench numbers on you head and who did the port work??? The ports are critical and if someone just did a hog job then bingo we found your problem. In addtion what valve size are you running.
Jason


[Modified by ONLY 8V, 12:33 AM 9-13-2002]


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (ONLY 8V)*

Knock sensors are basically microphones tuned to a specific harmonic. Yes they wear out; yes they get damaged; that shielded cable is important to stay shielded. And yes they torque rating does modify the sensitivity.
It's really hard to see it without datalogging (seeing through the eyes of the ecu), but in my experience i've seen 4 cars with different base values (idling) and different knock sensitivity. 
I'm going to do some datalogging with baseline (installing a new knock sensor) at various torque ratings VS old sensor. I believe my findings with co-incide with my thoughts with data to back it up.


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (mrkrad)*

I got the head used so I dont know who did the porting job. Today I retard the cam by 4" and it pulls a little better. 
I tricked the computer by sending wrong water temp signal and it ran a little stronger in midrange. 
Tomorrow I will dyno the engine and post the results. 
My KS shielding is damaged in 2 places I have covered it by electric tape. I guess I have to go and get a new one or find a good one in Junk yard.
I was wondering how does torquing the KS relates to sensetivity? More torque more sensetive? or other way around!


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

Less torque (or a couple of aluminum washers between)== less sensitivity.
It is important that you torque it to factory settings for the model of car you have i think its somewhere between 15-18 if i remember but don't quote me.
Check your bentley for exact figure.


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## Digiracer (May 5, 2002)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (mrkrad)*

I have some feedback on some of the problems (corks) of the Digifant2 system
1. my car often suffers from Digi-lag on the highway when I need to pass using full throttle acceleration. The car will imediately go full lean and about 3-5 seconds go by and then full throttle enrichment goes into effect, (meanwhile the engine pings to death)
now if I use full throttle in lower gears 1st,2nd, sometimes 3rd full throttle enrichment works okay
transition from closed loop - open loop WOT function takes too freakin long
2. at low rpm's 1500-2200 rpm the injectors like to shut off, VW's retarded effort to save fuel. the car bucks violently sometimes with an untrained foot, if their was a way to delete that fuel saving function(keep the injectors on) 
3. the stock ecu's have huge off idle hesitation, I used to be able to punch the gas in neutral and hold for 1.5 secs before the tach needle could swing towards redline
part of the problem is sucking that barn door open (vane type meter)
I'm definetely interested in the PMS system for Digifant 2 and ditching the Vane type meter for a map sensor or mass flow sensor or both would be awesome (so Digi2 could handle some boost??)
ps I have an extra digi2 ecu coming in I could send out to you if your interested


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (Digiracer)*

Thats exactly how my car acts up. When I go full on throttle, it takes few seconds before gauge goes rich. When I am off the throttle and back it takes another few sec before full rich.
In first gear it never go to full rich, 2nd gear it only does it around 5200 rpm and above. third gear same as 2nd. 
forth and fifth gear the WOT kicks in around 4000 all the time. 

Digiracer, can you send me your Dyno graph? I am going to dyno my car tomorrow. We can compare the power band.
If you dont have a scanner, can you snail mail me a photo copy? I can scan it and post it online for you.
Let me know


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## Digiracer (May 5, 2002)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

Keep in mind these chips CSW, AMS, Neurenburg, Bildon Race are deigned for near stock 1.8L RV or PF code engines with only 9.7:1 compression & still have to run on 87 oct. except the AMS & maybe the Bildon Chip.
Many of us here have somewhat more radical setups. These chips have to fuel 2.0L's with 10.3-11:1 in Kickster's case, bigger cams with more lift, better intakes/exhausts, headers, port & polish jobs.
Basically the engine moves alot more air than it did stock and consumes more fuel with the higher compression ratios
My RV code engine was rated by the factory @ 100 flywheel HP, that's about 75 WHP if your lucky. I'm making almost 50 more HP to the wheels with a very mild port job & no port matching to boot!
Mrkrad even said this system isn't as adaptable as say a Motronic system so any time you increase the airflow through the engine you can run into driveability issues.
Just an idea or suggestion: before going to larger injectors, why not try an adjustable or 3.5-4 bar Fuel Pressure Regulator?

[Modified by Digiracer, 1:18 PM 9-14-2002]


[Modified by Digiracer, 1:29 PM 9-14-2002]


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (Digiracer)*

Definitely raise the fuel pressure .5 bar with a chip matched. Thats good for a good bit more power. But you don't want to do this without a chip rescaled for this or you're playing with the fueling with blindfolds on.


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (mrkrad)*

I dyno tested the car today. I will have to scan it and post it tomorrow. 
My best run was 115 hp and 127 TQ. I will post the air fuel reading.


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## Gforced (Mar 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I dyno tested the car today. I will have to scan it and post it tomorrow. 
My best run was 115 hp and 127 TQ. I will post the air fuel reading.
[HR][/HR]​Yeah that dyno day was definitely worth the money ... I learned alot about both our cars. I am glad you did those other runs with the stock ECU and with the CSW chip. Seemed with the chip you made less power. Your dyno sheet doesn't show it but I can attest that your car can pull 118Whp with stock ECU and more fuel (tricked temp sender) ... not too far off the AMS equiped numbers that digiracer had. Which leads me to believe you can probably make more power from simply tricking the stock ECU. I will try the 3 tooth trick on the MAF as well as go back to stock ECU since it looks like with mods the car needs more fuel which the the CSW chip is too conservative in giving. Thus I think it was progammed for a car with no mods to provide a slight improvement in performance while getting better mileage, if it makes sense. 
Also, I like that trick you did with the temp sender, fooling the computer into a rich setting. Now I'm thinking of putting in a toggle switch that tricks the computer into the rich setting. Maybe just stack another switch on top of the WOT switch. That one would switch form a hot sensor to the cold sensor. 
Other things I may try are this ignition from Aroura.
http://www.pgperformance.com/ign.htm 
a 4 bar Fuel pressure regulator and hi-flow cat.
I will also post my dyno with the crappy wires I had.

[Modified by Gforced, 10:42 AM 9-15-2002]


[Modified by Gforced, 10:43 AM 9-15-2002]


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (Gforced)*

no doubt we're interested in seeing the results. Anything that can be done with hardware







can also be done with software. Please post up the dyno with air fuel results.


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (mrkrad)*

Here is the dyno


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (Gforced)*

My last run with stock chip and tricked sensor I pulled 118.6 hp but my torque dropped to 122. He did not print that run for me.
dont forget that yesterday was very humid and temp was around 29.


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## Gforced (Mar 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

Here is mine ... notice the gaps in the plot at the higher RPM. This was caused by leaking ignition wires. Should give better numbers with new wires.

http://www.geocities.com/vtjin/images/92golf4dr/2L8vDyno.jpg 

[Modified by Gforced, 11:13 AM 10-14-2002]


[Modified by Gforced, 11:15 AM 10-14-2002]


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## ONLY 8V (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (Gforced)*

Interesting.....from looking at the charts it appears the CSW chip screwed up your ignition timing. The A/F ratio looks good with the chip, however the power just isn't there, i.e. the ignition timing seems bad. With just the chip, you can see how jumpy the curves are (hp & torque) which leaves me to believe they are trying to advance the timing WAY too much to the point where the knock sensor is kicking in and retarding the timing dramatically.....try rerunning with 100+ octane gas and see what happens.
It'd would have been interesting to compare it to the AMS chip.
Well, one good thing learned from this....the CSW chips sucks...eBay it!!
Jason


[Modified by ONLY 8V, 1:28 PM 9-17-2002]


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (ONLY 8V)*

actually im not sure you are reading the graphs correctly. The wavyness is "BAD". The top line up there is the green one i assume. Since it correlates to the hp/tq rating. 
Watch the corresponding air fuel on the CSW chip compared to the power. Notice how it kicks in enrichment quicker? Thus less power. 
They fixed a problem, but didn't bother to retweak the maps to extract more power.
Now #2. The CSW chip has LESS timing than the stock chip. If the air fuel is the same, and theres a bit less power what else is there (given constant ambient/motor temps) to make power? Timing.
My conclusion is that chip is not designed for your application, Perhaps a higher compression motor?
I'd suggest the following:
throw in some higher octane gas.
Buy a new knock sensor.
Turn the dizzy timing up (advance until it pings).
Use the csw chip.
you'll get what you want, more power. I promise.
There is no one chip for all applications, you guys should know that by now. SNS carries 100+ chips for our customer base, and each application truly needs a near custom chip for each stage of modification level, if you have
even deemed stages for digi-2 cars
(cams, etc).
To assume one chip is going to do everything for everyone is just not realistic, nor is it how we do business. Keep an eye out for some interesting developments from sns. Just like the g60 market, we'll buy a couple fleet cars , get some guineau pigs, and slaughter the market. You can always peep over to our g60 forum, if you don't believe me. 
That's my plan, if i gotta buy couple of gti's to do it, then so be it. I love the 91-92 gti


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## ONLY 8V (Mar 4, 1999)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (mrkrad)*

Mrkrad....I think we are saying the same thing that there is a timing issue however I think of all the lines at the higher rpm the Green is the least wavey....notice the blue esp at high rpms. I do disagree with your statement the the CSW chip has less timing....I believe it has too much in that it is causing knock and therefore major timing retard at the higher rpms, as a result of the knock sensor. But I do agree, the best option is for a custom chip, however my AMS chip ran much better numbers at the track (1/4 mile) then the stocker....~2 tenth each time.....6 runs on each same days (3 and 3).
Kicker: I'm curious, what exactly did yuou do to track the temp sensor? Looks like you go some nice A/F ratios there.....13:1 is just about perfect for "racier" type motors.
Jason

[Modified by ONLY 8V, 5:44 PM 9-17-2002]


[Modified by ONLY 8V, 5:50 PM 9-17-2002]


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## Digiracer (May 5, 2002)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

any updates on your fueling issues kickster?
ha, gotta keep this great topic going ((((((BUMP)))))


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (Digiracer)*

I think My fueling is ok. It seems the problem is with timing. I want to make the KS less sensetive and see if it makes any
effect. I am also trying to make a kit to trick the computer to think it is cold only on full throttle. My dyno showed 15 more hp at 6000 rpm with that trick


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## VW89Golf (Jan 14, 2002)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (Digiracer)*

Quote 
2. at low rpm's 1500-2200 rpm the injectors like to shut off, VW's retarded effort to save fuel. the car bucks violently sometimes with an untrained foot, if their was a way to delete that fuel saving function(keep the injectors on) 
I don't know if this is happening to me or not, but I own a 92 golf with about 201k. When I first start my car, 1st gear is fine. But when I shift into second I complelty loose all power. I step on the gas, but the rpm's just fall and the car starts to buck. I pretty sure it doesn't have to do with me not knowing how to shift, I feel that the injectors aren't getting fuel when I shift into second. This mostly happens when the car sits for a couple hours and I dont drive it. Its weird, since 5 seconds later it will gain power again and drive normal. Pretty sure its not about it being warmed up. 
Can anyone lead to what this might be??
Plus if SNS ever make a chip for a Digi 2 I'll buy it in a second. I don't have any mods now, but are looking to get a 2.0 block, pnp, 268, etc. 
Thanks 
This is a real interesting post keep the replies going


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## Digiracer (May 5, 2002)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (mrkrad)*











[Modified by Digiracer, 8:53 PM 9-29-2002]


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## DST VR6 (Sep 27, 2001)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (Digiracer)*

 *DIGIRACER's DYNO SHEET* 


[Modified by vwgroundzero, 10:16 PM 9-25-2002]


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (vwgroundzero)*

I compared Digiracer dyno with mine. There is big difference in the out puts.
RPM Kickster Digiracer Diff
3K 63 71 8+
3.5K 77 82 5+
4.0 89 94 5+
4.5 102 110 2+
5.0 115.2 120 5+
5.5 115 121 6+
6.0 97 120 23+

As you can see My engine is not pulling good after 5500. Hp just drops. my last dyno which was not printed out showed 3 more hp so my numbers can be little better. It is getting cold here in Canada so I am just going to wait until next summer.
I think my high compmakes the KS to kick in. I hear that MSD ignition system can do majic with engines that knock!!


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## Digiracer (May 5, 2002)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

you mentioned MSD ignition, I thought I'd mention that I replaced my Bosch crap with an MSD Blaster Coil (part #8222) and switched from Bosch +4's to NGK V-Powers 7727 BP6EY gapped @ .35 
i noticed an increase in smoothness and pulls easier to 6K (limitations of my head)
the Coil is only $35 at Summit and the plugs are $1.45 at any auto parts store
vw ground zero is sporting a MSD Coil also
Kickster you have mail


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (Digiracer)*

yah if you want your car to pull nicer above 5200 you're gonna have to port that head. There's just no flow left up there (assuming your's isn't ported). every 8v of this genre got the same crappy head, and the cam of course may help too. A bigger cam will shift your powerband up a little more.
Difference between the stock cam and the 268/260 on g60 is about 600+ rpm's of more usable top end power.
If your car is knocking you'd probably hear it ping first. The KS circuitry isn't all that good on any digifant. You can test this theory by placing two aluminum washers in between the block and the KS and this will deafen its sensitivity.
(be sure to know what pinging sounds like if you do this).


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (mrkrad)*

My 8v head is ported with 3 angle valve job. I also have match ported the intake and exhaust.
I will have to try the washer trick and see hwo it works. Does it have to be aluminum?


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## Digiracer (May 5, 2002)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

I can't let this topic fade away just yet. It's about to get more interesting in a few more days but I can't say why yet. anyway...... *BUMP!!!!*


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (Digiracer)*

We are bunch of Digifant geeks


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

I'm still gonna cut some chips when i get a few moments of time.. i'll let some of you guys guineau pig them.. I'm curious as to tear apart the original digifant to see how its history goes..
(remember it was digifant(85-86), digi-2 (87+), digi-1(89), digi-3 (93+) in that order. I want to get my hands on one of those illusive digi-3 units someday.


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (mrkrad)*

As far as I know, Digi I uses pressure sensor and was used on G60 engines. Digifant II was used on all 8v engines from 1988 to 1992. In USA Cal. they used a version of Digifant that was called DigiI (OBDI) 
I have never heard of Digifant III. after 1992 all cars came with motoronics!!


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

ahh but thats an assumption you make for the USA. The rest of the world kept using digifant for many years there after








Digifant came first, then digifant-II (based on digifant)
then came digifant-1 (map based), (digifant-1-obd-1/vanagon) then digifant-3.
Digifant & Digifant-II are very old technology compared to the latter ones.. 

Digifant-3 has both a 1bar map (no boost) and some sort of flapper/maf thingee. I've seen a picture of one before i don't think they existed in usa but i could be wrong.


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## racerxx6 (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

I cannot let this topic die. I have a similar setup that recently managed only 110whp. After following the electrical test section of the bentley and doing a compression test (170-180 across ) I cannot find any major problem. The plugs were white when I pulled them, so I an guessing that I am running lean. I do not have access to a fuel pressure tester yet, but that is the next deal. If that pans out I will get the injectors cleaned. After that I am at a loss. Maybe a euro injection w/aftermarket knock sensor ignition?? The biggest thing is that the car runs fine. If it would just act up or something. IT is just not making any power up top. It just tapers off at 5200. WIth a TT ported head I thought that would be were it would shine.
Lets keep this one going


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## racerxx6 (Mar 20, 2002)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

Hi
I am still working on some stuff. Kickster how did you trick the system? Using a gtech stock injecters and a stock chip (pulled the csw to send to collin at TT to test) and a weight of 2570 (2350 +200 me + 4 gallons) I got consistant 109-111 whp. Very close to my dyno of 110whp. I disconected the coolant temp sensor and pluged in another one that I had and ty wraped it down. After this the car felt much better and did consistant 118-121whp. After several back and forth switches the results were very much the same. Last week when I pulled the plugs they were white. after running for a while with the trick, I pulled them and they were a nice tan color. AFter some chat w/ collin i put in a set of G60 injecters that I had. Diid the same deal but was around 110-112. When I tried the trick, that dropped to 95-102. and the car felt sluggish, throttle reponse was sluggish also. After driving for about 15 miles, I pulled the plugs. black. After all this I have come up with this. I have gone from running too lean to being too rich. Seems that we need to figure out how to get it to run like it did with the stock injecters and the "trick". ANyoe have any ideas?? Maybe the g60 injecters with a different fuel pressure regulater or the stock injecters with a 944 regulater?? It seems that digiracer with the ams chip has it all hooked up. May just have to buy oe of those. The csw just does not seem to acomplish the same things on the fuel side. Just some food for thought


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (racerxx6)*

1. Go see the 16V jetronic fuel enrichment device
2. Crush your FPR http://www.snstuning.com/fpr.htm


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (racerxx6)*

Well I did what you did, simply unplug it and plug it to a cold sensor. 
my hp jumped by 16 hp @6000 rpm. thats huge!! 
I think if AMS chip is programed to give you extra fuel after 4000 rpm then we dont need any of these tricks.
I am getting a AMS chip very soon, I will see if it does the job.

Digiracer what have you done to your car now?

PS. We should start our own forum for Digi-geeks


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## Digiracer (May 5, 2002)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

I haven't done anything to mine lately but I did buy a Crossflow Head. 
The plan was to use a custom short runner intake manifold/plenum on the 180 cfm x-flow head with a Mustang/Explorer/Ranger 50-70mm Throttle body. Run 11:1 compression with a mammoth Schrick 288
I'd finish it off with a trick cold air intake using 3 inch muffler tubing with a K&N style ITG Racing Filter sucking cold air from where the carbon canister once lived. 
That plan might not happen because the digi-lag problem & the low rpm injector cut off. With the Digi-lag problem why even bother? 
I've been thinking about fueling my car with 4 Mikuni Carbs off a Kawasaki 1000cc. (probably rejetted to feed the VW 1984cc)
Running 11:1 with the Schrick 288, or I could convert to solid liftes & run an even wilder cam.
I'd probably retain the Digifant2 system just to spark & control knock until I could replace it with something better.
Pro's: bye bye barn door air flow sensor, digi-lag what's that?
injectors shutting off, I don't have any injectors? 
instant throttle response, How about 170WHP @ 7000 rpm???








sound great!!! 
imagine 2400 lb Kawasaki Drag Bike with 4 wheels








Cons: Poor fuel economy, like I care, I need atleast 20MPG though
maybe tricky to dial in, anyone ever try this?


[Modified by Digiracer, 7:31 PM 10-17-2002]


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## Digiracer (May 5, 2002)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

Did You Know?: 
The stock ecu retards ignition timing when the coolant temp sensor senses above average coolant temperature.








Ever notice how your car runs so good cold or after start up but once it warms up it feels like it loses 20 HP?
One way I minimized this was to replace the stock thermostat & fan switch with 180' thermostat & a 185' fanswitch which helped but wasn't a complete fix.
I noticed some of you have seen great gains by performing coolant temp sensor tricks.
The AMS programming does these tricks for you. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
It's programmed to ignore coolant temp sensor values except for during cold start up & to reset the ecu/check timing/set idle,mixture,etc. 
The power is there it's just that your timing is getting retarded with out you even knowing about it.


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (Digiracer)*

Digiracer, great info http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I just bought a AMS chip!







It will take few days before I get it. 
Cross flow head is a great modification, the intakes stay cooler and the longer intakes will increase your torque.
A ported x-flow head will be much better than a digi head. That is my next modification as well. I may switch to 
Motoronics at same time. a chiped and camed ported x-flow head can easily put out 135 hp to the wheel. 
I may also go 16v and turbo the ****z out of it.


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## Gforced (Mar 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (kickster)*

So quote:[HR][/HR]Digiracer, great info http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
I just bought a AMS chip!







It will take few days before I get it. 
Cross flow head is a great modification, the intakes stay cooler and the longer intakes will increase your torque.
A ported x-flow head will be much better than a digi head. That is my next modification as well. I may switch to 
Motoronics at same time. a chiped and camed ported x-flow head can easily put out 135 hp to the wheel. 
I may also go 16v and turbo the ****z out of it.[HR][/HR]​So should I wait until you get the motronic Swap and then you can sell me the AMS chip?
Good to see you have taken the AMS plung ... now I have to see your car in action with the new chip.
If you don't mind me asking how much did the chip cost you and did you have to ship your computer? What was the cost to ship.


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## kickster (Aug 15, 2000)

*Re: Using G60 digi I injectors on My digi II 2.0 8v!!! (Gforced)*

I am getting it used. Some one switched to Motoronics and sold me the computer. 
I have not decided on my next move. I like turbo but my bank account doesnt like it.








I will have to wait and see.


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