# Alternative to Full Size Spare Tire



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

In markets outside of North America, a full size spare tire is optional, rather than standard equipment. Many drivers do not want to carry a full size spare - it's uncommon to get flats, and if the tire does get a puncture, pumping it back up with air is usually sufficient to take you to the next service station. So, the Phaeton is provided with an air pump, rather than a spare. This also gives the driver additional storage in the spare tire well. The foam insert is needed to maintain the crash-worthiness of the vehicle, and to protect the fuel tank from rear impacts.
I noticed some discussion a few days ago about the possible difficulty of carrying a spare tire if oversize aftermarket rims were fitted on a Phaeton. Perhaps this might be a suitable alternative.
Michael
*Air Pump and Foam Insert*


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## riccone (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: Alternative to Full Size Spare Tire (PanEuropean)*

Great idea. . .thanks.


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## rmg2 (Jan 23, 2004)

*Re: Alternative to Full Size Spare Tire (PanEuropean)*

Michael,
I was informed by VW NA that one of the reasons why we in the USA get the full size spare is because it is part of the rear crash safety crumple zone. That is why I was unable to order the 19" wheel for my Phaeton. The 19" are not certified for rear crash test therefore, we cannot order them for the US market.
I know the rational for no spare, like weight savings and cost savings for the manufacture but I prefer the full size spare a least as an option.
I recently had a flat (on a Sat eve.) after only 1500 miles on my current car and it had a temporary in the trunk. (They offered a full size spare but my car did not have it.) Wasn't happy that I had to drive around for 2 days (at less than 60 MPH) with a temporary until Mon AM and then take time off to locate a 19" tire. Cost $300 out the door. Oil prices even effect the tire industry.
By the way the rim would have cost $465 had I damaged it.
I'm for full size spares at least as an option.
I also hope that VW will certify the Phaeton with larger tires for '07.


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Alternative to Full Size Spare Tire (PanEuropean)*

I'm would prefer a temporary spare if it would increase the capacity of the trunk. 
The Infinity M35/45 comes either with a temp or a full size spare. With the full size spare, the trunk capacity is (if I remember correctly) 11.5 cu. ft. With the temp, it jumps to 14.9 because it allows a lower trunk floor.
The Phaeton has a 13 cu. ft. trunk capacity which is small for a car of its size. This is especially true considering you can't fit a roof rack for the few times that you need more capacity.
I wouldn't feel comfortable without any spare since sometimes a tire won't hold air after certain failures such as a blowout that might occur if you hit a bad pothole. This type of failure is much more common with the low profile tires that are now commonly fitted. I just wouldn't take the chance of getting stranded somewhere. 
However, when I spoke to Phaeton Customer Care about the roof rack/small trunk issue, they said they couldn't fit a temporary spare because it couldn't take the weight of the car. That strikes me as a pretty weak reason. If they can spend as much money to design this wonderful car, they could design and build (or have built) a suitable temporary wheel and tire.
Perhaps run-flats would be a good solution. I know they tend to weigh more and ride more harshly, but the suspension could be calibrated by VW with that in mind if they were fitted as standard equipment. Sounds like that would be the best solution for me.


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## spockcat (Jun 5, 2003)

*Re: Alternative to Full Size Spare Tire (PanEuropean)*

Does anyone fully understand the directions given on the pump label? Especially panels 6, 8 and 9. I assume panel 1 means; Read the manual because you won't understand any more of these pictorial directions.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Alternative to Full Size Spare Tire (spockcat)*

Pictorial directions are common outside of North America because of the number of different languages used. The owner manual does contain full text directions. I interpret the panels you questioned as follows:
*6)* Inflate the tire until the pressure gauge moves into the green band. If the gauge does not move up into the green band, call for service.
*7)* After 10 minutes of driving, stop and re-check the air pressure.
*8)* The tire pressure label can be found inside the gas flap. Add air if needed.
*9) *If the air pressure will not increase up to the green band (in other words, if the needle indicates in the red band), call for service.


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## whealy (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: Alternative to Full Size Spare Tire (PanEuropean)*

On my Mazda RX-8, they deleted the spare and provided it as an option. What they included was a sealant” that you could spray into the tire that will attempt to temporarily fill the hole and a compressor to refill it. My guess is the reason that VW left out the sealant is the same issue that the Mazda owners that used it had … and for that matter, the Prowler owner I know that have used it. The sealant messes up the tire air pressure sensor. So not only do you have to repair/replace the tire, you also have to pick up the sensor if you use this stuff. On the Mazda tires, the sensors were $110 each. Not sure of the Phaeton’s cost.
Just wanted fellow owners contemplating removing the spare and possible going with sealant and an air compressor to take this into consideration. Again, following Michael’s comments, flats happen so rarely anymore, the risk would seem worth taking if you wanted most space here in NA.
As always Michael, thanks for the info and pics.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Alternative to Full Size Spare Tire (whealy)*

VW left out the sealant because the Phaetons sold in Europe are delivered with run-flat tires - this explains why the car has TMPS, it is required by law if the car is fitted with the run-flat tires. The air pump is simply a courtesy, in case the owner does not want to drive the car without air in the tire (for example, in the case of a slow leak).
AFIK, VW does not supply a can of sealant. The individual pressure sensors in the Phaeton also cost about $90 to $100 each, and they would be destroyed if sealant was injected into the tire.
Michael


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## platinum_overcast (Aug 31, 2004)

*Re: Alternative to Full Size Spare Tire (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_




What are the other parts in the foam? I see a towing eye, lug wrench, screwdriver, open end wrench and a lug lock adapter..... what's above the screwdriver? Anything I missed? Are there parts that fit in the other foam cutouts that aren't included?


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Alternative to Full Size Spare Tire (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_VW left out the sealant because the Phaetons sold in Europe are delivered with run-flat tires - this explains why the car has TMPS, it is required by law if the car is fitted with the run-flat tires. The air pump is simply a courtesy, in case the owner does not want to drive the car without air in the tire (for example, in the case of a slow leak).
Michael

I suspect the fact that VW delivers with run-flat tires in Europe explains the absence of the spare tire. I don't think they would want to leave you stranded with a flat. 
I would consider fitting run-flats myself (and opening the spare tire space for additional storage) except I want to use snows for part of the year and the benefit would be limited.
Your pictures seem to show a fair amount of space below the tire that could be used for the various safety things (12v compressor, etc.) that I currently carry in a box in the trunk that I don't need easy access to. Is that true? I can't wait to pull the spare to look.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Alternative to Full Size Spare Tire (car_guy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *car_guy* »_Your pictures seem to show a fair amount of space below the tire that could be used for the various things...

Do you mean the area in the middle, like where the hole goes in the donut? That space is not available, because that is where the air compressor and related equipment for the air suspension system is installed. Save yourself the effort of taking the tire out...
Michael


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

Interesting discussion and perspectives.
I prefer a regular Full Spare. For me it's easier to either change the tire or have the correct wheel if my wife has called for service. Plus eliminating still more devices that may mal reform or require instructions to be read and possibly miss-interpretation by service personnel.(see SpockCat's Comment)
And as Car Guy said, " .... run-flats ....... tend to weigh more and ride more harshly".



_Modified by GripperDon at 8:08 PM 9-30-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: Alternative to Full Size Spare Tire (PanEuropean)*

A bit more information on this foam insert, because I know Robert is interested in it - here is the part number and the catalog page from the European parts catalog. My Swiss dealer is checking to see what the cost of the air pump and insert will be.
Michael
*Catalog Listing for Foam Insert*


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## n-n-n-n (Apr 20, 2004)

Do they have the tire foam like other manufacturers or just the air compressor? How is the puncture sealed?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (n-n-n-n)*

Hi Nicholas:
Welcome to the Phaeton forum.
I'm not really sure if VW includes a can of goo to put in the tire or not. I did a bit of running around in Switzerland and Germany today, trying to get more information about this equipment. I had a look in the back of one Phaeton, and all I found was the air pump - no goo or anything like that to put in the tire. I get the impression that the idea is that you use the air pump to inflate the tire, based on the assumption that the leak is a small one - in other words, the air will not leak out again quickly. I suppose if you have a big gash in your tire, you will need to call roadside assistance.
Phaetons come with a roadside assistance package in every market that they are sold in.
I did get the prices for the equipment pictured above: The air pump costs €226, and the foam insert for the spare tire well costs €57. These are German market retail prices, without the 16% German retail sales tax added.
It's probably worth mentioning that it is essential to have either a full size spare tire or a foam spare tire well insert in place in the Phaeton, in order to maintain the structural integrity of the rear end of the car in the event of a rear end collision. When vehicles (of all kinds) are put through the required crash testing for occupant and fuel tank protection, they are equipped with whatever the manufacturer provides as standard with the vehicle. In the case of the Phaeton, this will be either a full size spare or the foam insert, which has the same rigidity as the full size spare. There is quite a bit of history in the USA of full size police cars being rear-ended and either catching fire or not measuring up to crash protection standards because the police officers removed the spare tire in order to store other materials in the spare tire well.
For us as Phaeton owners, this means we have to leave _something _in that well - the spare, or the foam insert.
Michael


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Michael, I find this thread a little confusing. You mention in an earlier post that Phaeton's delivered in Europe come with run-flat tires. I can't imagine VW selling the car with regular tires and no spare. 
However, in this post you seem to propose the use of regular tires, no spare, but carrying an air pump. This sound like a very questionable combination. The only flat I was able to drive on was one where the nail that caused it remained in the tread. I don't think any other type of puncture will allow the retention of air pressure for more than a few minutes. 
So suppose, as you mention, you have a flat or blow-out that requires you to call roadside assistance. Then what? Are they going to bring a wheel and tire for you to put on? Towing a car with a flat on a flat-bed trailer seems a little extreme.
The only combinations I would consider would be run-flats and a pump, or regular tires and a spare. I've always used the latter, and have carried a pump as well. 
BTW, quite satisfactory air pumps with built in flashlights and warning flashers can be purchased at any auto supply store for 20 - $25, rather than the approx. $250 for the VW one.
Michael, one other point that I respectfully question. Could a piece of foam really provide the same rigidity as a mounted spare tire and wheel? I would expect the foam to collapse without providing much resistance at all. I suspect that if VW sells the car w/o a spare, it meets its rear end crash requirements without it. 
And while we're discussing this subject of tires, flats, etc., I've seen other Phaeton threads that suggest the use of tire pressures as low as 31 PSI, in order to obtain a desirable comfort level. I think this would be very risky as this is substantially lower than VW even recommends in Europe. Catastrophic tire failure (blowouts) is generally a result of low tire pressure, not high pressure. Lower pressure allows the sidewall to flex, causing heat buildup, which results in the blowout. This is exacerbated at high speeds, which is why it is generally recommended that you raise your pressures a few PSI if you plan sustained highway driving.
Government regulations requiring TPMS are going into effect soon in this country to deal with this issue.
OK, I'm done now. At least for the moment!.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (car_guy)*

Hi Steven:
You raise some good points. I think perhaps some confusion might have arisen as the thread has evolved.
I originally posted the information about this foam insert and air pump in response to comments by other forum members that they could not fit their aftermarket (larger) tire and rim combinations into the spare tire well. I wasn't advocating swapping out the existing full size spare (standard equipment in North America) for the air pump and foam insert.
Some (but not all) Phaetons sold in Europe are equipped with run-flat tires. Safety standards in Europe require that cars equipped with run-flat tires be equipped with a tire pressure monitoring system. This is because it is impossible to tell from visual observation if a run-flat tire is properly inflated, or has no air pressure in it at all.
European Phaetons can be delivered with or without TPMS, with or without run flat tires, and with or without a full size spare. The only combination of these three that not permitted is run-flat tires without TPMS.
The foam insert is there to provide structural rigidity in the event of a rear end collision - this I know for sure. It is pretty rigid (crush-resistant) foam, pretty much the same as the foam that is behind many of the 5 MPH impact resistant bumpers on many cars - for example, the front bumper of a North American spec Golf IV. 
The only tire pressures that I have ever proposed as an alternative to the US Government mandated pressures are the tire pressures that are provided by VW themselves. There are two sets of recommended tire pressures in this world for Phaetons: 1) Those recommended by VW, which are provided on a sticker inside the gas cap door of Phaetons sold in every market except North America, and 2) The tire pressures mandated by the US Government, which are provided on a sticker (also mandated by the US Government) attached to the forward face of the B pillar on the driver side of thPhaetons sold in North America. Because US legislation only allows one pressure to be given, this is by necessity the pressure suitable for the heaviest possible vehicle, fully laden with 5 passengers, their luggage, and full fuel. There is more information about this subject at this thread: Tire Pressures, Ride Comfort and Road Noise .
It appears (this is my opinion only) that the rationale for TPMS is different between Europe and the USA. In Europe, the system is mandatory on vehicles equipped with run-flat tires. In the USA, TPMS was mandated as a result of the 'TREAD' act, which is legislation that was promulgated in response to the Ford / Firestone problems of the late 1990s.
Michael


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

I should have made it clear that the tire pressures that were recommended that I felt were too low were suggested by forum members other than yourself.
I certainly believe you but am surprised that VW sells cars with regular tires and no spare. I understand the advantage in doing it, but would think it would be outweighed by the possible inconvenience. Maybe it's because their roads are so much better maintained that the chance of getting a flat is so much lower.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (car_guy)*

I think there are quite a few reasons why many carmakers don't provide a spare in Europe. Better roads (and cleaner roads!) are certainly a factor, shorter distances between communities, greater consumer concern about hauling all that weight around (heck, folks turn the engine off at red lights here), and superb roadside service provided by non-profit auto clubs in many countries (e.g. Germany, Switzerland, etc.).
I have a spare in my Golf, but to be honest, I would not be at all concerned if I didn't have a spare.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (car_guy)*


_Quote, originally posted by *car_guy* »_Michael, one other point that I respectfully question. Could a piece of foam really provide the same rigidity as a mounted spare tire and wheel? I would expect the foam to collapse without providing much resistance at all. 

Below is a photo showing the very same type of foam used in another location on the Phaeton - in this case, directly behind the skin of the rear bumper. It is this foam that provides the 5 MPH crash endurance for the rear bumper.
Michael
*Rear Bumper of Phaeton*
Bumper skin has been removed.


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

I can now see how this stuff would provide good impact absorption. I assumed a much less dense material, like the McDonald's foam we're always referring to.
BTW, does the Phaeton actually have 5mph bumpers? That would be terrific. I thought a lot of cars only have 2.5mph bumpers since the US Gov. standard was lowered a few years ago. 
It might sound like a small thing, but the forces involved in a 5mph impact are four times as great than in one of 2.5mph. It can make an enormous difference as to how expensive repairs due to a very minor bender can cost, or whether any damage results at all.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (car_guy)*

I don't know what the actual specification is for the Phaeton bumper, but I can tell you from my experience that it is pretty darn strong.
I had an accident this summer - I sort of drove into the side of a Honda - the paint was scuffed on my front bumper, and the licence plate frame was broken. The Honda, on the other hand, suffered about $4,000 of damage, and had to be towed away on a flatbed, because the right rear wheel and axle came off the car.
The only parts that had to be replaced (as opposed to repainted) on my Phaeton was the licence plate frame, a chrome strip, and one of the parking sensors, which had a scratch in it. It still worked, but the dealership didn't want to take any chances on it not working properly.
Michael
*Damage to my Phaeton*


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## abcfob (Aug 26, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_I think there are quite a few reasons why many carmakers don't provide a spare in Europe. Better roads (and cleaner roads!) are certainly a factor, shorter distances between communities, greater consumer concern about hauling all that weight around (heck, folks turn the engine off at red lights here), and superb roadside service provided by non-profit auto clubs in many countries (e.g. Germany, Switzerland, etc.).

I'd add that most performance cars are losing their spare because of prioritizing for performance. You get free weight reduction, better mpg, and better power/weight ratio AND less items to stock? Its pretty much a no-brainer.
If one sports car was fractionally slower than its competitor because of a spare, it'd be bad for sales.


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: (abcfob)*


_Quote, originally posted by *abcfob* »_I'd add that most performance cars are losing their spare because of prioritizing for performance. You get free weight reduction, better mpg, and better power/weight ratio AND less items to stock? Its pretty much a no-brainer.
If one sports car was fractionally slower than its competitor because of a spare, it'd be bad for sales.









I think in high performance cars such as the exotics it's more of a packaging issue. It's just hard to find a place to put a huge spare tire and wheel. In addition, the fronts are often a different size than the rears. But almost all of those that don't carry spares (and there aren't many) use run-flats, not regular tires.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (car_guy)*

Just apropos of the 'rear impact protection' issue - when I was taking pictures of the damaged Phaeton for the Some interesting photos of a dis-assembled Phaeton post, I came across the foam spare tire well liner that was in the car at the time it was rear-ended. As you can see from the photos below, it did absorb some of the impact of the rear-end collision.
The liner is surprisingly thick, up to 8 inches thick in some areas.
Michael
*Spare Tire Well Foam Insert - after a rear-end collision*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Here is a photo of another possible alternative to carrying a full size spare tire. This might be of interest to Phaeton owners who have installed the larger Bentley wheels on their Phaeton. It is the spare tire that is provided with a Bentley. It seems that the normal full size Bentley wheels are too big (either in thickness or diameter) to fit into the spare tire well, so, VW provides this skinny wheel to avoid using up half the trunk space to carry the spare.
I don't know much else about it - if anyone is interested in doing further research, the part number for it is *3W0 601 011 A*.
Michael
*Bentley Compact Spare*


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## FootSore (Aug 22, 2006)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

I have a 19" Omanyt wheels. No run flat tyres & no spare. The pump unit itself that VW supplies includes the goo that would wreck my TPMS system. 
The only flat I have had wrecked too wheels so a spare would have been no good. I was in Yorkshire and the nearest tyre that VW assist could find was over 100 miles away. Took all day to get towed up and return!
I would be interested in the half size spare although I may just buy a standard 18" wheel and tyre. The rolling diameter is the same on all Phaeton wheels the 19" are 9.5J and the width means they won't fit in the wheel well under the floor. 17" and 18" are 8 & 8.J (narrower).
Yes I would be running on a tyre that is narrower than the other three sso would have to limit speed but it wouldn't be as bad as a half size.
FootSore


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## Paldi (Sep 4, 2004)

*Re: (FootSore)*

The Bentley 19 inch wheel is 9 inches wide. the tires are 8/10th of an inch wider in cross-section at the tread than stock and 7/10's of an inch taller in diameter. The Bentley wheel/Pirelli PZero tire fits the well. 
I assume the 20 inch bentley tire has the same width and diameter as the 19 inch Pirelli PZeros I have and so they should also fit in the well. Anyone considering the 20 inch Bentley wheel and tire setup should check this out for themselves.








Note the jack is resting on the edge of the tire tread and the top of the jack is elevated about a half inch above the top of the stowage recess it fits into. I have supported it with a couple of strips of rigid foam stuffed into the lower half of the recess. It stays put. 14,000 miles and no problems.











_Modified by Paldi at 12:57 PM 10-24-2006_


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## h20face (Sep 11, 2005)

*Re: Alternative to Full Size Spare Tire (PanEuropean)*


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## Jim_CT (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

I have the 19" Bentley wheels and tried for some time to find another to use as a spare. This week I stopped looking elsewhere and bought the Bentley 19" temporary spare. The list price is $624. The Bentley part number for the T155/70R19 tire is PD-109086-PA; the part number for the 19" wheel is 3-W0601025G.
It fits in the spare tire well without any modifications or adjustments. The temporary spare has no TPMS, so the TPMS is set to four tires (by using the VAG-COM). 
BTW - the Bentley temporary spare is also available in a 20" size.


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## maverixz (Feb 16, 2005)

Please reload the pictures.


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## leedsphaeton (May 27, 2008)

michael, can you rehost the photos, please


_Modified by leedsphaeton at 11:47 AM 3-2-2009_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (leedsphaeton)*

Photos re-hosted.


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## MistaRhoi (Feb 10, 2010)

*The Inflatable Spare Tire*

I think the solution for the inflatable tire is interesting. It does save space, gives you a spare if you need one, and an air compressor if you just want to fill up a slightly flat tire. These pictures show some VW/Audi inflatable spare tires: 

Q5 un-inflated inflatable spare tire 
 

Touareg inflated inflatable spare tire


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Photos re-hosted.

Michael


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