# Most Populiar engine management setup?



## NorthDakota2.0 (Nov 6, 2001)

*Most Popular engine management setup?*

Just curious what the most popular engine management setup was. Feel free to add options (Please keep this on topic). Thanks, BoB


[Modified by NorthDakota2.0, 11:52 AM 3-1-2002]


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## toast (Nov 30, 2000)

*Re: Most Populiar engine management setup? (NorthDakota2.0)*

i can't vote cause i haven't been exposed to cars running any of these systems, but i am scheduled to get a tec2 soon.


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## asylum (Jan 11, 2000)

*Re: Most Populiar engine management setup? (toast)*

I know that alot of the guys on vortex are running SDS systems. Im getting mine soon hopefully.


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## [email protected] (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: Most Populiar engine management setup? (NorthDakota2.0)*

The wolf system is quite an excellent system. We have it equipped on a couple of our race cars. For turbo applications it has a built in boost controller. The new 64 bit system is unreal, for more info contact them at http://www.wolfems.com


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## speed51133 (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: Most Populiar engine management setup? (I_Fly_GTi)*

after just seeing fast and furious, I must say...
get one that uses a laptop and says "Warning!! Danger to manifold" if you push it too far!!


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## toast (Nov 30, 2000)

*Re: Most Populiar engine management setup? (speed51133)*

quote:[HR][/HR]after just seeing fast and furious, I must say...
get one that uses a laptop and says "Warning!! Danger to manifold" if you push it too far!![HR][/HR]​hahahahhahahah








funnny that the same day i post my earlier response, i have a conversation with my car's tuner and we decide to go with haltech instead.


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## blackA2gti (Sep 14, 2001)

*Re: Most Populiar engine management setup? (speed51133)*

quote:[HR][/HR]after just seeing fast and furious, I must say...
get one that uses a laptop and says "Warning!! Danger to manifold" if you push it too far!![HR][/HR]​I think that comes with the Motec exhaust.


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: Most Populiar engine management setup? (blackA2gti)*

I use the KMS system, KMS stands for whatever works.


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

*Re: Most Populiar engine management setup? (blackA2gti)*

<<<I think that comes with the Motec exhaust.<<<
You caught that too? LOL god i hate movies!
We have had good results with TEC-II on many different cars....they are planning on replacing this with TEC-III, but they are dragging their heels badly on it.
Consider Autronic if you are ambitious, they have 2 ECU's currently and one new unit on the way soon... it is truly a high-end system.
Kevin.


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## GreenRallye (Aug 20, 2001)

*Re: Most Populiar engine management setup? (lugnuts)*

I'm in the process of installing Autronic Smc ems on my Rallye. Heard nothing but good things about Autronic. 
I'll share my experience after the installation is complete..
Thomas Olaussen
Rallye Turbo


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## [email protected] (Jan 30, 2001)

*Re: Most Populiar engine management setup? (GreenRallye)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Heard nothing but good things about Autronic. 
I'll share my experience after the installation is complete..
Thomas Olaussen
Rallye Turbo[HR][/HR]​
I second the TEC 3 and Autronic. Although we've only ever used the TEC 2(on our stage 3 VR6 turbo racecar and twin turbo Subaru Impreza RS), both look like great systems.
Jeremy


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## 1.BillyT (Aug 2, 2000)

*Re: Most Populiar engine management setup? ([email protected])*

I have an AEM ECU coming to me. Should be on the car by mid February...


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## rocco2nr (Aug 24, 2000)

*Re: Most Populiar engine management setup? (1.BillyT)*

i'm especially interested to see how well this will work.


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## 2008cc (Apr 16, 2001)

*Re: Most Populiar engine management setup? (1.BillyT)*

what was the final price on the AEM if you dont mind, and what all does it include, and what is deemed extra? 
BTW....like the rods.


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## compresdcaddy (May 29, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (NorthDakota2.0)*

i do not understand how people can favor Tec 3 when it is not even out yet. just my own personal thought. I vote for tec2 because of familirarity. as far as the rest autronic is a nice setup.


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## VW_Adrian (Oct 27, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (compresdcaddy)*

what about DTA ???
has a built in boost controler and drag lauch ( single gear traction control )..
all laptop programable and has a closed loop operation ( self learning/tuning ) so u dont have to worry that u have programed it wrong ..


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## vdubturbo (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (VW_Adrian)*

TEC-II. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Motohead (Aug 27, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (vdubturbo)*

whose using Megasquirt? How's it working? How hard was it to set up?


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## Motohead (Aug 27, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (vdubturbo)*

who's using Megasquirt? How's it working? How hard was it to set up?


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## dianalynnxk (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (NorthDakota2.0)*

I plan on getting SDS hopefully in my gti when I put the 16v in because I'd like to get either a supercharger setup or turbo eventually.....
I hear it's where it's at, but I guess I'll find out eventually.


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## NW4KQ driver (Nov 30, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (dianalynnxk)*

I am running SDS on my Z . I think for the price and ease of installation that SDS has a very good value. It does not however have data loging or biult in boost control. Also does not use a lap top to program (some guys/gals like the laptop) I am kinda upset that none of these manufactures offer a complete 5cyl system for those of us who want to get big numbers out of our audi I5's. I read the article in this months turbo and high performance on the AEM plug in system and it just read like an advertisment , I was disapointed. I voted SDS on the pole only because that is what I am running and that is what I know. later


[Modified by NW4KQ driver, 8:19 PM 3-12-2002]


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## [email protected] (Jan 30, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (NW4KQ driver)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I am kinda upset that none of these manufactures offer a complete 5cyl system for those of us who want to get big numbers out of our audi I5's.[HR][/HR]​ Kenny,
AUTRONIC for 5cyl's.
We can get it.
BTW---The country's finest '91 200TQ is for sale. http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?&id=226031&postid=2355294#2355294 
Best,
Jeremy


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## billzcat1 (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? ([email protected])*

Ok you've got MY attention....so how much would a full Autronic 5 cyl setup run? I am STILL shopping for a decent 5 -banger system and this looks pretty darn good compared to what most manufactures offer.


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## VW_Adrian (Oct 27, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (billzcat1)*

yeah mine too ..
i still got probs with the factory unit ..
it wont spark at all ..


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## [email protected] (Jan 30, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (billzcat1)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Ok you've got MY attention....so how much would a full Autronic 5 cyl setup run? I am STILL shopping for a decent 5 -banger system and this looks pretty darn good compared to what most manufactures offer.
[HR][/HR]​ Richard,

The Autronic SM2 is about $3400:
Autronic SM2 is sequential 3D ECU. 
This model is aimed at the serious racer. With traction control, it is ideal for circuit racing.
The Autronic SM2 includes harness, air and water temp sensor, internal map sensor, fuel pump relay, PC data cable, calibration and data logging software, 100 page manual.

The internal map sensor is available in 1bar absolute or 4.4 bar absolute (50 psi).

Available with high current (low impedance) or low current (high impedance) injector drivers.
Harness has a connector which plugs into the Ecu, and has a socket for fuel pump relay. 
The data cable to connect to a IBM compatible PC or Laptop plugs into a port on the ECU case.

Case Dimensions:
L = 180mm (7")
W = 200mm (8")
H = 40mm (1 1/2") 
Features:

Sequential operation for 2 to 8 cylinder engines.
3D fuel and Ignition maps.
User defined up to 32 RPM and 16 Load sites = 512 sites.
Eight auxiliary outputs other than fuel pump control. 
Auxiliary outputs can be defined for boost control, nitrous oxide, staged injectors, camshaft timing, AC, fan control, idle valve etc...
Traction Control.
Flat Shift. (ver 1.92 & 1.93)
Launch Control. (ver 1.93)
Anti-Lag.
Data Logging.
Available with high current drivers if required.
AutoTune option available.
Compatible with Motec Dash. 
Specifications
The Autronic SM2 Sequential Engine Management System are versatile engine management controls for all engine performance upgrades. Their sophisticated features allow these products to provide performance that rivals even the most expensive European systems costing 3 to 10 times more.
Included are features previously found in Formula 1 level applications, yet this system has the flexibility to be used by the every day engine tuner for almost any high performance upgrade.
A user friendly "IBM" compatible laptop program allows the user to select the degree of sophistication required for each application. This program, in combination with intelligence within the management system, allows the user to select the finest calibration detail required to match the application, in absolute minimum of time.
This program provides the means of interrogating the engine management system enabling speedy diagnosis and calibration.

Usage.
These systems can cater for the requirements of virtually any spark ignition engine, including the following.
i. High output supercharged or turbocharged engines, with either multi point and/or center point injection.
ii. Rotary (Wankel) and two stroke engines.
ii. Engines having uneven firing sequences such as 2 and 4 cylinder "V" configuration motor cycle engines and V6 motor vehicle engines.
IMPORTANT:- Please note that this product is intended for high performance motor sport applications and compliance with statutory regulations when used on public roads cannot be guaranteed.
Features.
1. a. Eight injector drivers for full sequential operation on engines up to eight cylinders. May be set for 'semi-sequential' operation on engines having more than 8 cylinders. e.g:- 12 cylinder engine using 6 groups of 2 two cylinders.
b. All injector types catered for (0.9 ohm to 16 ohm coil resistance). Specify unit fitted with optional high current injector drivers for 0.9 ohm or twin injector applications.
2. User choice of manifold absolute pressure or throttle position as engine load input. Internal absolute 
pressure sensor for simplified installation 0 to 200 kpa (0 to 29.4 PSI) and 0 to 300 kpa (0 to 44.1 PSI) available from stock. 0 to 450 kpa (0 to 66.1 PSI) available on request.
3. Single coil distributor, twin coil distributor or muilticoil distributor-less ignition configurations are possible on most engines.
4. Closed loop (feedback) boost pressure control for turbocharged engines with multiple calibration curves selectable by switch input or road speed (eg:- lower boost curve for use in low gear).
5. Closed loop (feedback) idle speed control.
6. Exhaust oxygen sensor input for sensing air/fuel ratio. Connect either a Bosch narrow band O2 sensor or for more demanding applications a Bosch wide band O2 sensor and Autronic Analyzer. The low cost narrow band sensor requires no interface adapters or expensive air/fuel ratio meters, and offers moderate accuracy and tolerance to leaded fuels. This function can be used to monitor air/fuel ratio during engine tuning or can be used for feedback control of air/fuel ratio for applications requiring exhaust catalytic conversion (feature available on request). 
7. Diagnostic/Error indicator of sensor or ECU fault conditions with memory for detection of intermittent fault conditions. 
8. Measurement of end correction for exhaust back pressure (applicable to turbocharged engines).
9. Control of engine cooling fans and coordination with air conditioner operation.
10. Programmable on/off output for solenoid or relay driving that operates according to engine speed and load (eg:- can be used for gear shift control or light, over rev indicator, inlet camshaft timing selection or control of a supplementary electric fuel pump that augments mechanical fuel pump delivery at low engine rpm only).
11. Precise spark advance control strategy for both static and dynamic operating conditions.
12. Unique calibration strategy allows accurate control of fuel delivery under both acceleration and deceleration.
13. User selectable spark and fuel delivery strategy for abnormal engine operation conditions to minimize possibility of engine damage whilst still maintaining engine operation.. (eg:- over heated or over boosted).
14. Comprehensive limp-home functions with user selectable default settings that ensure engine operation can continue after sensor failure has occurred.

15. User defined proportional output function that can be used for additional functions as outlined in 10 above or for a more sophisticated control function such as servo control of auxiliary butterfly for turbocharged applications requiring precise throttle control and minimum turbo lag.
16. Full compensation of engine control parameters for engine operation at any altitude (fuel delivery, ignition timing and boost pressure).
17. Adaptive learning (with memory) to minimize the number of user setups required and to provide optimal control of air/fuel ratio, boost pressure and idle stability.
18. Rev limiter with soft characteristic that uses a combination of fuel delivery and spark control.
19. Fuel pump safety shutoff. Pump stops 3 to 4 seconds after the engine stops.
20. Bi-directional input/output line for simultaneous connection of remote adjusting unit and combustion knock detection unit.
21. Standard unit is ultra light weight/compact yet has sufficient drive capacity for high power continuous duty applications. (one unit OK for all applications from motor cycle to large capacity twin turbo engines). 
22. User configurable data logging of up to 17 channels with the selected channels being sampled as fast as 50 times a second. With 128k bytes of non volatile memory.
23. Optional interface unit to allow sequential operation without the need for separate crank/camshaft sensors or special multi-sensor distributor.
24. Fuel used pulse output to electronic or electromechanical counter with resolution of 0.1 liter (or use with trip computer).
25. Remote monitoring of all functions using telemetry adapter, ECU can perform simultaneous logging and telemetry.
26. Water injection/intercooler cooling for intake charge temperature control in turbo/super charged applications.
Interface Requirements.
INPUTS
Sensors 1. Ignition input Hall effect, (Also available for direct connection to magnetic reluctor type pickups).
2. No. 1 cylinder reference. (Also available for direct connection to magnetic reluctor type pickups).
3. Road speed input. Hall effect (Also available for direct connection to magnetic reluctor type pickups).
4. Turbo speed input. Magnetic Reluctor (must use optional interface adapter).
5. Barometric pressure. (Internal to ECU).
6. Manifold pressure. (Internal to ECU).
7. Throttle position.
8. Intake air temperature.
9.  Engine coolant temperature.
10. Exhaust back pressure (optional).
11. Exhaust oxygen. (or optional Wide Range Air/Fuel Ratio Sensor).

Auxiliary 1. Air conditioner request.
2. Boost curve select.
Adjustments Idle mixture trim. (Internal to ECU and screwdriver adjustable from outside). 

OUTPUTS
Main 1. 8 off injector driver. (Optional 2 injectors per driver).
2. Ignition output.
Open collector output to any of the following:
1. Single coil high energy ignitions: Bosch 7 pin, Mitsubishi 3 pin.
2. Autronic Capacitor Discharge Ignition.
3. MSD 6A etc..
(4 outputs are available allowing multi coil distrubtor-less ignition for applications on engines up to 8 cylinders).
Auxiliary 1. Fuel pump/injector fuel shut off safety relay.
2. Air conditioner clutch relay.
3. Engine/Air conditioner cooling fan relay.
4. Engine cooling fan relay.
5. Idle speed actuator. (Variable duty cycle single pole type, eg:- Bosch).
6. Turbocharger wastegate control valve. (SEM, most OEM types or Autronic low or high capacity).
7. Turbocharger auxiliary butterfly control motor.
8. Spare duty cycle output with user define characteristic.
9. Fuel used pulse output. (for trip computer function). 
SERIAL I/O
1. Communications with "IBM" compatible computer for calibration, fault diagnosis.

Let me know if there are any questions.

Best, 
Jeremy


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## billzcat1 (Sep 10, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? ([email protected])*

Jeebus! I know how to read the webpage I was just looking for a price....


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## [email protected] (Jan 30, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (billzcat1)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Jeebus! I know how to read the webpage I was just looking for a price....[HR][/HR]​
Just trying to be helpful.


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## NW4KQ driver (Nov 30, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? ([email protected])*

thanks for the info and price , do you have any cars equiped with it at your shop ?? I am in Washington and would make the treck down there to see how it worked














later


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## [email protected] (Jan 30, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (NW4KQ driver)*

quote:[HR][/HR]thanks for the info and price , do you have any cars equiped with it at your shop ?? I am in Washington and would make the treck down there to see how it worked














later[HR][/HR]​ Kenny,
No problem.
No, unfortunately right now we don't. Josh has been hee-hawin' over it vs. TEC-3 for his 1.7L BIG 16V turbo project but I don't think he's decided yet. One of the nice things about the Autronic is that it uses Bosch sensors instead of GM sensors like the TEC-3 uses.
HTH. Feel free to visit us regardless. We're always doing something cool.








Best,
Jeremy


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## samrabbit (Feb 18, 2002)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (NorthDakota2.0)*

I added Accel. I am very suprised to see no one really using it in dubs, although this is real popular in other imports as a stand alone system. its actually quite simple, but you need to be smart in installing it, as with any system. it handles alot of boost. and quite cheap.


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## asylum (Jan 11, 2000)

*Re: Most Populiar engine management setup? (asylum)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I know that alot of the guys on vortex are running SDS systems. Im getting mine soon hopefully.[HR][/HR]​I finally bought it! SDS system should be here next week.


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## 16vracer (Jul 12, 1999)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? ([email protected])*

quote:[HR][/HR]thanks for the info and price , do you have any cars equiped with it at your shop ?? I am in Washington and would make the treck down there to see how it worked














later
Kenny,
No problem.
No, unfortunately right now we don't. Josh has been hee-hawin' over it vs. TEC-3 for his 1.7L BIG 16V turbo project but I don't think he's decided yet. One of the nice things about the Autronic is that it uses Bosch sensors instead of GM sensors like the TEC-3 uses.
HTH. Feel free to visit us regardless. We're always doing something cool.








Best,
Jeremy[HR][/HR]​Jeremy- What is the price on TEC-3? I've heard with a business account, it's $1699 ? I think that was through Options Auto Salon. What can you offer me? IM or email me if you want. Oh and you guys will be doing the install


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## [email protected] (Jan 30, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (16vracer)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Jeremy- What is the price on TEC-3? I've heard with a business account, it's $1699 ? I think that was through Options Auto Salon. What can you offer me? IM or email me if you want. Oh and you guys will be doing the install







[HR][/HR]​ Fred,
The TEC-3 unit alone is about $2400.
Best,
Jeremy


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## 16vracer (Jul 12, 1999)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? ([email protected])*

quote:[HR][/HR]Jeremy- What is the price on TEC-3? I've heard with a business account, it's $1699 ? I think that was through Options Auto Salon. What can you offer me? IM or email me if you want. Oh and you guys will be doing the install








Fred,
The TEC-3 unit alone is about $2400.
Best,
Jeremy[HR][/HR]​What about TEC 2?


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## [email protected] (Jan 30, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (16vracer)*

quote:[HR][/HR]What about TEC 2?[HR][/HR]​TEC II (Unit alone)	$1691	4/6 cylinder
TEC II Complete	$2250	4/6 cylinder W/all sensors.
HTH,
Jeremy


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## VRT (Dec 8, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? ([email protected])*

quote:[HR][/HR]What about TEC 2?
TEC II (Unit alone)	$1691	4/6 cylinder
TEC II Complete	$2250	4/6 cylinder W/all sensors.
HTH,
Jeremy[HR][/HR]​I have A TEC II 4cly for sell the unit only for $800


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## Prize fighter (Nov 3, 2000)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? ([email protected])*

Motec M4 1700.00 email your questions. 2/3 rotor, 2/4/5/6/8cyl.


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## 16vracer (Jul 12, 1999)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (Prize fighter)*

^^^


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## citat3962 (Oct 15, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (16vracer)*

Anyone want to crack open the box of an autotronic and photo copy the 100 page manual for a nominal fee and ship it to me????






















I need study material...does it include installation instructions??? I just want to use it as a reference. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
IM me if you have any stand alone management system with good instructions for the same deal.


[Modified by citat3962, 7:00 PM 3-21-2002]


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## aventari (Jul 25, 2000)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup?*

Jebus! 1500 for fuel injection?!

Volvo Turbo 6 port CIS - $30 dollars. good to 200 horsepower. Beat that. 


[Modified by aventari, 9:35 PM 3-21-2002]


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## Hardcore VW (Oct 9, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (aventari)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Jebus! 1500 for fuel injection?!

Volvo Turbo 6 port CIS - $30 dollars. good to 200 horsepower. Beat that. [HR][/HR]​Plenty of people do.


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## samrabbit (Feb 18, 2002)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (aventari)*

1500 knocks on the door of serious injection. but doesn't get in.







and that doesn't get u a programed system, injectors, or supporting peripherals...... a full supersprint rabbit system is up around that price. and that's just metal tubes.


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## 2_Dang_Funky (Mar 6, 2002)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (samrabbit)*

quote:[HR][/HR]1500 knocks on the door of serious injection. but doesn't get in.







and that doesn't get u a programed system, injectors, or supporting peripherals...... a full supersprint rabbit system is up around that price. and that's just metal tubes. [HR][/HR]​what does "serious" injection consist of?


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## Sc'd_Thumper (Sep 27, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (2_Dang_Funky)*

this



















[Modified by Sc'd_Thumper, 12:57 PM 3-23-2002]


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## Davesport (Aug 18, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (citat3962)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Anyone want to crack open the box of an autotronic and photo copy the 100 page manual for a nominal fee and ship it to me????






















I need study material...does it include installation instructions??? I just want to use it as a reference. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif [HR][/HR]​Can't do that, but if you have specific questions I'd be glad to try and answer them. The instructions don't have step-by-step installation instructions as every (nearly) installation is unique. The instructions do cover all the sensors, programming, datalogging, special features, etc. I've also got some prices at http://www.davesport.com/autronic if you want to take a look.


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## 2_Dang_Funky (Mar 6, 2002)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (Sc'd_Thumper)*

quote:[HR][/HR]this









(Image deleted)[HR][/HR]​is that supposed to do something for this thread?????


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## 2008cc (Apr 16, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (2_Dang_Funky)*

I always found it discouraging when you cant study how a system is set up before you make a big purchase like an engine management system. That is why I went with SDS for the GTI, and now with the Holley for my Scirocco.


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## Davesport (Aug 18, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (2008cc)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I always found it discouraging when you cant study how a system is set up before you make a big purchase like an engine management system. That is why I went with SDS for the GTI, and now with the Holley for my Scirocco.[HR][/HR]​I don't have a really good reason why the instructions aren't more available, at least in electronic format. I just follow the guidelines set forth by the maker. You can certainly call and get all the info you want.
On another note, I would like to know your experiences with the Holley setup. The user interface seems really nice -though I know nothing about the rest of the system.


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## Sc'd_Thumper (Sep 27, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (2_Dang_Funky)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
is that supposed to do something for this thread?????[HR][/HR]​uhh, yeah


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## speed51133 (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (Sc'd_Thumper)*

people like to beat it while they look at big pics that get quoted 50 times...

i went through many MANY close calls with stand alone managment. I almost bought autronic, almost got DTA, almost got motec, and DID get sds.
I ended up going with sds for 1 reason. SOOO many people with vw's have it, and it works. 
As said many times before, they all do the same thing, but some have more bells and whistles. SDS has probably the least ammount of bells and whistles. Some think that makes it "cheapo", but others think it makes it cheap and easier to use. Get whatever fits YOUR bill.


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## asylum (Jan 11, 2000)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (speed51133)*

quote:[HR][/HR]I ended up going with sds for 1 reason. SOOO many people with vw's have it, and it works. 
As said many times before, they all do the same thing, but some have more bells and whistles. SDS has probably the least ammount of bells and whistles. Some think that makes it "cheapo", but others think it makes it cheap and easier to use. Get whatever fits YOUR bill.[HR][/HR]​Thats why I got an SDS system too!!! I just don't have it installed yet. Hopefully in about a week.


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## nscirocco (Oct 4, 2000)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (Davesport)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
I've also got some prices at http://www.davesport.com/autronic if you want to take a look.
[HR][/HR]​dave,
would those prices include base maps off your t3/t4 1.8t beetle?









there's a bunch of random autronic docs here:
http://www.turbofast.com.au/autronic/software/
-nigel.


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## asylum (Jan 11, 2000)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (nscirocco)*

My SDS is finally going in this weekend!


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## killa (Nov 26, 2000)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? ([email protected])*

C
I
S http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## cabzilla (Jan 3, 2000)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (Sc'd_Thumper)*

quote:[HR][/HR]this


















[Modified by Sc'd_Thumper, 12:57 PM 3-23-2002][HR][/HR]​Too bad it's running a Z-charger...


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## Sc'd_Thumper (Sep 27, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (cabzilla)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
Too bad it's running a Z-charger... [HR][/HR]​not anymore...


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## nycvr6 (May 4, 1999)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (duff_man)*

DTA is cool sh!t..go to their site and download the software, and play with it for a while, it has some really cool features.. http://www.dtafast.co.uk/ http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## 2_Dang_Funky (Mar 6, 2002)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (nycvr6)*

quote:[HR][/HR]DTA is cool sh!t..go to their site and download the software, and play with it for a while, it has some really cool features.. http://www.dtafast.co.uk/ http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif [HR][/HR]​do you have any tuning exp. with it? or do you just like the dials and stuff on your computer screen?how many people in this thread actually have any HANDS ON EXP. tuning with any of these systems?


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## nycvr6 (May 4, 1999)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (2_Dang_Funky)*

No tuning experience . This is one of the systems that i am considering running on my car. I personally like the 3D graph feature, and sequential fuel injection is a big plus. The system even has a controllable traction control system built in, i personally would rather run bigger slicks for traction, but its a cool feature.


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## oneflygti (Jul 3, 2000)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (2_Dang_Funky)*

quote:[HR][/HR]how many people in this thread actually have any HANDS ON EXP. tuning with any of these systems?[HR][/HR]​thats a good question...how about you start. how much experience you got?


----------



## Davesport (Aug 18, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (oneflygti)*

quote:[HR][/HR]how many people in this thread actually have any HANDS ON EXP. tuning with any of these systems?
thats a good question...how about you start. how much experience you got?[HR][/HR]​I have plenty of experience installing and tuning the Autronic management systems, both the SMC and the SM2 boards. I confess I've not had much experience with other brands though.


----------



## toast (Nov 30, 2000)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (Davesport)*

i am planning on picking up an autronic system in mid may. i might be emailing you.


----------



## Davesport (Aug 18, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (toast)*

quote:[HR][/HR]i am planning on picking up an autronic system in mid may. i might be emailing you.







[HR][/HR]​Check my prices too before you buy! http://www.davesport.com/autronic.htm


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## 2_Dang_Funky (Mar 6, 2002)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (oneflygti)*

i've had my hands in PLENTY of fast watercooled VW's and worked on 4 cars with SDS and one with a commander 950. your turn onefly,since your so interested in what I'm doing and what I've done,why don't you tell me what you've done besides a 15.whatever pass,why are you so interested in me anyway?I'm spoken for.
davesport,it's good to see your doing well with the autronic,I've spoke with a few people that like it a lot and have great results with it.it's a relief that there's anyone on vortex that actually tunes anything themselves.


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## 2008cc (Apr 16, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (2_Dang_Funky)*

I have tuned SDS on my previous setup, and will be working with the Commander 950 in a couple of weeks.


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## speed51133 (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (2008cc)*

i have to say that almost everyone ive talked to about engine managment either:
A) does not agree with what i say
B) think stand alone is for track only cars
C) think its totally impossible to tune yourself
no matter how much i tell them, they just dont believe me i think.
I'll even tell people STEP BY STEP how to instal an sds system, and it never really sinks in.
dont get me wrong, i asked a MILLION questions before I did my setup, but I still remember the answers that I was given. Seems like no matter how many times you pass along this info on the vortex it never really sinks in.
as ive said before, if anyone is really interested in sds, just shoot me an IM and i'll talk forever about how to put it in.


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## 2_Dang_Funky (Mar 6, 2002)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (speed51133)*

D) have firm/biased opinions on programmable systems even thought they have *NO* hands on exp with ANY of them.


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## 2_Dang_Funky (Mar 6, 2002)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (nycvr6)*

it does look like a good system,little too pricey if you want to take advantage of all it's features though,your right on track about traction,big slicks beat out a stupid traction control anytime.


----------



## toast (Nov 30, 2000)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (2_Dang_Funky)*

i'll check to see what prices my car's mechanic is getting the autronic for.


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## 2_Dang_Funky (Mar 6, 2002)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (toast)*

ok let me know.


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## jassem99 (Feb 1, 2002)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (2_Dang_Funky)*

Glad to finally see a VW interest in the Autronic. Been doing a lot of reading about standalone for a few weeks now. No hands on experience with any system but here's what I know:
1 - Someone wanted Autronic prices. Here's a detailed page and some installation info.
http://www.turbocelica.com/Autos/WhiteAllTracWeb/AutronicEMS/MyEMSFAQ.htm 
2 - The autotune function on the autronic is great and the DTA doesn't do the same thing. You can hook a wideband on the DTA M8 but that's about $500 more than the M48. Even when you hook the wideband on the DTA I've had an email from the DAT guys telling me it's not the best way to set up an initial map. It's more for filling in the gaps in the map. The autronic is a complete system that i'd venture using to set up an initial and decent final map.
3 - The only way to justify the Autronic $1000 tuning aid IMO is to share the cost with someone else needing a wideband or someone with an Autronic. I asked autronic if the cheap $485 unit that someone in the US has come up with and they basically said "garbage in garbage out". Spend $550 or so extra and get the proven autronic unit to get better mapping. If you are close to a dealer such as davesport, it might be best to leave it up to them since the prices dave is charging are pretty reasonable. If dave can lend/rent you the wideband that would be nice.
4 - After I wrote up a chart comparing the systems I was considering, I found this useful page: http://www.emergent.com.au/200sx/ecudata.html 
5 - The ONLY shortcomings of the Autronic are the lack of a knock sensor and the need for a laptop. The knock sensor bit shouldn't matter to a well tuned car. As for the PC bit, Autronic might be introducing a hand held controller a la SDS in the future.
6 - The nice things about Autronic are many but my favorite are features of the racespec sm2 system: traction control and gear specific boost control.
7 - I have decided to cool off on the standalone thing and try to source a G60 harness and ECU and then add an sns chip. It was fun dreaming for a while though.


----------



## Nutsy (Aug 14, 2000)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup?*

Autronic looks really cool and all, but it doesnt have knock sensor capabilities. I know they are not really necessary if tuned properly, but the safety blanket that a knock sensor system supplies is really nice.
That is why I like the AEM system... on paper anyways, haven't worked with it at all.


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## speed51133 (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (Nutsy)*

knock sensors sound good, but really....
why would you want one so bad?? are you planning on tuning the car so it detonates?
autronic is cool, but don't think that because it self tunes, you just plug it in and it literally tunes itself. Its not that simple. You have to tell it which air/fuel ratios you want to have for specific rpms and THEN it uses a wideband AND a "wideband controller"(not included) to get you real close to that target air/fuel YOU selected. After thats all done, you still need to do your ignition tuning manually. 
Every ecu has its strong points, but sooo many people here have problems learning how to read an air/fuel meter that I really doubt we'll be seeing any autronic setups anytime soon!


----------



## Davesport (Aug 18, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (speed51133)*

quote:[HR][/HR]knock sensors sound good, but really....
why would you want one so bad?? are you planning on tuning the car so it detonates?
autronic is cool, but don't think that because it self tunes, you just plug it in and it literally tunes itself. Its not that simple. You have to tell it which air/fuel ratios you want to have for specific rpms and THEN it uses a wideband AND a "wideband controller"(not included) to get you real close to that target air/fuel YOU selected. After thats all done, you still need to do your ignition tuning manually. 
Every ecu has its strong points, but sooo many people here have problems learning how to read an air/fuel meter that I really doubt we'll be seeing any autronic setups anytime soon![HR][/HR]​You've got a good point about the knock sensor. If you've tuned your engine correctly, why would you need one?
As far as the timing and A/F maps, you do have to start with something you 'pull out of the air' using your (or your tuner's) knowledge of the engine, engines in general, etc. Everyone knows more boost/load needs more fuel and less timing, so you use common sense (?). Once that is in you use the Autotune feature to build the fuel map. When the fuel map is done you may go back and change the A/F map or the timing map without needing to re-tune. 
Ideally you'd start with reasonable maps, then Autotune the ECU. After that it is best to put the car or engine on the dyno and gradually change timing and A/F values until you get the most power with the least chance of detonation. You don't need to use the O2 sensor or the analyzer anymore for this testing, because the the fuel map is already set -you're just seeing how the engine responds to more or less fuel (or timing). During this phase it might be useful to monitor EGT and knock (using the hose trick or one of the fancy microphone type devices).


----------



## asylum (Jan 11, 2000)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (Davesport)*

Well.... the install on my SDS system is done!







Just need to get it tuned and the fun begins


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## dianalynnxk (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (asylum)*

I'm going to be purchasing SDS very soon. let me know how the tuning goes. I'm really interested.


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## nickcook_01 (Mar 16, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (dianalynnxk)*

I have an OBD2 ABA that I installed in an A1 I am interested in getting a SDS system but I am not entirely sure what I have to purchase. Could someone let me know what ALL the components are that I have to buy.
thanks,
Nick


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## turboquattro (Mar 3, 2002)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (Davesport)*

quote:[HR][/HR]knock sensors sound good, but really....
why would you want one so bad?? are you planning on tuning the car so it detonates?
autronic is cool, but don't think that because it self tunes, you just plug it in and it literally tunes itself. Its not that simple. You have to tell it which air/fuel ratios you want to have for specific rpms and THEN it uses a wideband AND a "wideband controller"(not included) to get you real close to that target air/fuel YOU selected. After thats all done, you still need to do your ignition tuning manually. 
Every ecu has its strong points, but sooo many people here have problems learning how to read an air/fuel meter that I really doubt we'll be seeing any autronic setups anytime soon!
You've got a good point about the knock sensor. If you've tuned your engine correctly, why would you need one?
As far as the timing and A/F maps, you do have to start with something you 'pull out of the air' using your (or your tuner's) knowledge of the engine, engines in general, etc. Everyone knows more boost/load needs more fuel and less timing, so you use common sense (?). Once that is in you use the Autotune feature to build the fuel map. When the fuel map is done you may go back and change the A/F map or the timing map without needing to re-tune. 
Ideally you'd start with reasonable maps, then Autotune the ECU. After that it is best to put the car or engine on the dyno and gradually change timing and A/F values until you get the most power with the least chance of detonation. You don't need to use the O2 sensor or the analyzer anymore for this testing, because the the fuel map is already set -you're just seeing how the engine responds to more or less fuel (or timing). During this phase it might be useful to monitor EGT and knock (using the hose trick or one of the fancy microphone type devices).
[HR][/HR]​What about if you get a tankful of bad gas? Or if the ambient temp gets too high? What if something causes a lean condition, like a relay going out, or fuel filter getting clogged?
I think there are valid reasons for having a knock sensing ignition, even in a properly tuned setup.
I didn't realize the Autronic lacked that feature. Is it even an option? For my money, I would want to have knock sensing. It's a safety feature, not a tuning tool, of course.
Later,
Ken


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## speed51133 (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (turboquattro)*

ambient air temps wont make the car knock. there is an air temp sensor.
bad gas? i guess, but i dont think i've ever gotten bad gas.
Clogged fuel filter? Even on a 15 year old car I have, that i am the original owner, it still has the original fuel filter. 180k miles. no problems.


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## turboquattro (Mar 3, 2002)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (speed51133)*

quote:[HR][/HR]ambient air temps wont make the car knock. there is an air temp sensor.
bad gas? i guess, but i dont think i've ever gotten bad gas.
Clogged fuel filter? Even on a 15 year old car I have, that i am the original owner, it still has the original fuel filter. 180k miles. no problems.[HR][/HR]​High ambient air temps won't cause knock? We're talking high boost, standalone engine management applications here, right? You don't think high ambient air temp affects the intake air temperature, and intercooler efficiency? You don't think that knock is affected by the temp of the air going into the motor?
What does the air temp sensor do to compensate for the higher temp? Add fuel, retard ignition timing?
Bad gas happens. I haven't experienced it too much myself either. Same as clogged fuel filter.
You can argue all my reasons away, but your perspective comes down to relying on luck or playing the odds.
The fact is that without a knock sensor, there is no protection against detonation/knock except for the driver. Knock that you cannot hear can still damage the motor.
If we are talking about programmable fuel injection, and I think we are, then it seems like we'd be interested in pushing the envelopes of things, perhaps running on the ragged edge of detonation. Isn't this where the power is? As much boost and ignition advance as you can manage without knock?
Seems like if you tuned it for power, you would want to have some sort of protection against knock.
Like I wrote, "for my money" I would get one with a knock sensor. You can do what you want. I was just replying because people act like there is no reason for a knock sensor on a properly tuned car. I disagree, and I posted such.
If a person wanted to tune their car so that it had a large enough buffer before it would start knocking for whatever reason (carbon buildup in the CC, hot spots, bad fuel, clogged injector, stuck relay, bad MAP sensor, bad air temp sensor, whatever), then you would probably never see knock. To my brain, you can take it closer to the ragged edge of power vs. detonation with a programmable system that include a knock sensor. I have a spare tire in my car for similar reasons.
Cheers!
Ken


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## tallpaul (Oct 3, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (speed51133)*

quote:[HR][/HR]ambient air temps wont make the car knock. there is an air temp sensor.
bad gas? i guess, but i dont think i've ever gotten bad gas.
Clogged fuel filter? Even on a 15 year old car I have, that i am the original owner, it still has the original fuel filter. 180k miles. no problems.[HR][/HR]​I've never been in a car accident, but I still think seatbelts are a pretty good idea just in case...
I agree with turboquattro, for the money that you spend on a stand alone system plus a nicely built engine, I'd want the added safety of knock sensors. Better safe than sorry.



[Modified by tallpaul, 9:57 PM 4-24-2002]


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## turboquattro (Mar 3, 2002)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (tallpaul)*

Here's something strange.
I just did a Google search for "autronic knock", and Google's result was as follows: http://www.google.com/search?q=autronic+knock+sensor&sourceid=opera&num=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 
The cached copy that Google has saved is here: http://216.239.35.100/search?q=cach...ecu.html+autronic+knock+sensor&hl=en&ie=utf-8 
And the live copy is here: http://www.turbofast.com.au/autronic/sm2ecu.html 
The text in item number 20 was changed from:
"20. Bi-directional input/output line for simultaneous connection of remote adjusting unit and combustion knock detection unit."
To:
"20. Bi-directional input/output line for simultaneous connection of remote adjusting unit."
Very interesting. I wonder what the reason for the change was. Was Autronic originally thinking that there was some sort of third party knock sensor that should plug into the unit? Hmm...
Cheers!
Ken


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## speed51133 (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (turboquattro)*

well, i dont have a spare tire, and I dont wear seatbelts either.
I also don't have a knock sensor.
I'm not the only one either.
well, you can always think of more reasons on what would be better to have. Fact is, I like the LEAST ammount of options possible. Tell me how you like your programable engine managment with knock control when you get it and have it running


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## turboquattro (Mar 3, 2002)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (speed51133)*

quote:[HR][/HR]well, i dont have a spare tire, and I dont wear seatbelts either.
I also don't have a knock sensor.
I'm not the only one either.
well, you can always think of more reasons on what would be better to have. Fact is, I like the LEAST ammount of options possible. Tell me how you like your programable engine managment with knock control when you get it and have it running








[HR][/HR]​Okay, I'll write more too.








Yeah, that's fine that you CHOOSE not to use those items. Decisions such as that are probably based on facts which you analyzed and drew a conclusion about.
I posted some reasons someone might CHOOSE to have a knock sensor, because prior posts made it seem like there was NO reason to have one. I have simply brought up points that people can consider "for themselves" when they are faced with choosing their own system. I'm not some kind of "pro-knock sensor" lobbyist that's here to convince "you" to get a knock sensor. 
I'm here to offer what I think and know, and to learn from what others think and know. I'm certainly not here to prevent someone else from mentioning factual information, simply because I am personally biased against it. And I'm not here to make everyone do the same as I am. Maybe I am the only one thinking this way.
The fact that you are not alone in your choosing not to have a knock sensor or spare tire or use your seatbelt, have nothing to do with whether or not it is a good idea. Although it would be nice to have people to commiserate with if you have a flat and no spare, or have to eat steering wheel and teeth, or break a compression ring or piston, it doesn't have much of a positive benefit otherwise.
Maybe you don't live in an area where it gets as hot as 120 degrees F and more (AZ), so you wouldn't need knock protection. That's fine for you. Different features might appeal to different people. For me to be criticized for bringing information to the forum seems a bit like book burning or restriction of free inquiry.
If the "least" amount of options available is so good, then why even have forced induction or use standalone engine management at all? Why not just walk? Seems to me that this thread is about "popular engine management setups", so a discussion of the features they might have isn't way off base.
Isn't this forum for people who are car enthusiasts? Don't people tend to want to improve their cars, maybe changing the focus from an "everyperson's compromise" to be more biased toward performance or comfort of whatever. 
People have different tastes. I like "simple" and minimalist too, but if others want to do stuff to their cars that involves more bells and whistles, then that's fine by me. The only part of any of this that might bother me is when people make decisions based on misconceptions or incomplete facts.
You don't have to defend your choices, because they are your choices. What you might have to defend would be that a knock sensor has no value in an engine management system. Since many (all?) OEM's have included that feature in their own engine mangement systems for turboed cars, I would submit that deleting that feature for no reason other than personal bias (what are the drawbacks? cost?) has no positive benefit, and actually increases the risk of engine damage due to engine knock (for whatever reason, bad programming/setup/parts/gas/luck).
As for getting my own standalone engine management up and running, thanks for the invitation to come back after it's all finished to give my opinions about it.
I would hope that during the process of getting it going, I would be able to talk about it and get help here, rather than having to figure it all out by myself just to share the final result with y'all. If you (speed51133) personally don't want to participate until it's done, then that's fine too. It's unfortunate, since this is a discussion forum, but fine with me if it has to be that way.
The system that I'm trying to buy, LinkPlus, is on backorder. So it will be a while before I even get a chance to see how difficult the install and setup will be. That system has two knock sensor inputs. For me, knock sensing ignition is an order qualifier, as is true sequential injection. Less important but still considered is the ability to support direct ignition (5 coils). Other "options" that are available that might be useless to other people are boost control, anti-lag, some rpm and/or load dependent switches. I probably wont be using "all" the options, but the ones that I don't use shouldn't be detrimental to have sitting unused, I would think. I don't have to use them all, and nobody is trying to make anyone else use anything they don't want to use.
Anyways, everyone can do what they want. Even if the whole world is using the same system, and there are no knock sensors, it doesn't mean that they are not a good idea. In my opinion, decisions should be based on facts and not emotion or bias. I believe speed51133 is using an SDS(?), so he would have a reason to defend his choice. Since I haven't been charged for, or received, my LinkPlus order, nor have I any experience with SDS, so perhaps I can be a bit more objective and speak to the facts (as I understand them) rather than try to work backwards from a predetermined conclusion and support it that way.
It looks like the SDS has knock sensor support. I think SDS is one of more affordable units on the market. Their number 1 reason they give for choosing their products over others is "price". If the knock sensor function is something that they would have to actively include in their product, I would think that if it was optional they would have left it out in the interest of keeping the price low. Of course, it could be argued that it is a worthless feature, and that they only included it because it's what people who don't know what they are talking about, like me, want it.
So, does anyone know of a system besides the LinkPlus that will support 5 cylinder, sequential injection, direct ignition, boost control, knock sensing, data logging, and an apparently crude-ish form of automatic fine-tuning via the narrow-band oxygen sensor? That unit seems to be the most compatible unit that I've found.
But I am OPEN to other ideas, when they make sense. Even ideas that might go against the path I've already taken. That's the nature of truth, it exists independent of its acceptance or welcome or acknowledgement.








The best part of having knock sensing, is that it is always there watching. When it works, you may never (need to) know it. It's only missed when it's not there when you need it, like seat belts and spare tires. I'm not disconnecting my stock knock sensor anytime soon! And I know nobody has suggested that...
Later!
Ken


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## speed51133 (Feb 18, 2000)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (speed51133)*

nice book.
dont get carried away man.
knock sensing has its drawbacks too. Engine "noise" can be mistaken for knock. It also gives you a false saftey feeling. Even a knock sensor wont save your engine. A knock sensor retards timing AFTER it actually knocked!
I just think too many people are always shopping for parts, and never get them. They always talk about getting engine managment, but dont. Knock sensors being included will now be another reason for people not to get engine managment. I'd rather see people "fooled" into a system than get none at all.


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## jassem99 (Feb 1, 2002)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (turboquattro)*

Your post is so long I don't know where to start. 
The Linkplus is a fine system at a reasonable price IMO, and if it wasn't for the SM2's traction control, the Linkplus would get my vote.
I don't think motec or DTA offer knock sensing. There's a reason why only OEM's offer knock sensing. Like speed51133 mentioned, the noise filtering software that goes into the ECU is unique for each engine and knock sensor position and number. That means standalones can't reliably use a knock sensor output and that's probably why many of them opt not to offer it. They know it's possibly the most unreliable sensor output in the engine. In fact, eventually you will see knock sensors being replaced by pressure transducers to control knock or even some sort of ionization measuring (which I think is used by Mercedes since 1999?).
I'm just guessing but I think to have an aftermarket knock sensor work on a generic engine, the threshold on it will be so high so as to avoid 'hearing' valvetrain/engine mechanical knock that it will be useless for anything but massive knock. This massive knock will be heard by any use and he/she can then back off the throttle. I think if you can't hear it then the aftermarket knock sensor can't 'hear' it either.
I think autronic's system of monitoring kncok sensor output and providing the user with the option to 'remote adjust' it is most appropriate. If you get a bad tank of fuel you just adjust the timing remotely from inside the car, not laptop necessary. At all othertimes your timing should be correct with ambient air temperature correction and coolant temp correction table which the user should program appropriately to be his own personal 'knock cushion'.
Summary: Knock sensing should be left to OEMs. Don't let knock-sensing capability limit your choice of system.
PS. i do wear seatbelts and keep a spare tire.


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## turboquattro (Mar 3, 2002)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (jassem99)*

quote:[HR][/HR]Your post is so long I don't know where to start. 
The Linkplus is a fine system at a reasonable price IMO, and if it wasn't for the SM2's traction control, the Linkplus would get my vote.
I don't think motec or DTA offer knock sensing. There's a reason why only OEM's offer knock sensing. Like speed51133 mentioned, the noise filtering software that goes into the ECU is unique for each engine and knock sensor position and number. That means standalones can't reliably use a knock sensor output and that's probably why many of them opt not to offer it. They know it's possibly the most unreliable sensor output in the engine. In fact, eventually you will see knock sensors being replaced by pressure transducers to control knock or even some sort of ionization measuring (which I think is used by Mercedes since 1999?).
I'm just guessing but I think to have an aftermarket knock sensor work on a generic engine, the threshold on it will be so high so as to avoid 'hearing' valvetrain/engine mechanical knock that it will be useless for anything but massive knock. This massive knock will be heard by any use and he/she can then back off the throttle. I think if you can't hear it then the aftermarket knock sensor can't 'hear' it either.
I think autronic's system of monitoring kncok sensor output and providing the user with the option to 'remote adjust' it is most appropriate. If you get a bad tank of fuel you just adjust the timing remotely from inside the car, not laptop necessary. At all othertimes your timing should be correct with ambient air temperature correction and coolant temp correction table which the user should program appropriately to be his own personal 'knock cushion'.
Summary: Knock sensing should be left to OEMs. Don't let knock-sensing capability limit your choice of system.
PS. i do wear seatbelts and keep a spare tire.[HR][/HR]​What I planned to do was use the stock knock sensors from the oem engine management, Bosch CIS. The motor is from an '87 5kt, and had a single knock sensor originally. Does anyone have any comments about using the stock knock sensors, and how that might be more beneficial than using some kind of aftermarket device. The aftermarket ones available with the LinkPlus are donut style with a through-bolt, while the stock ones screw into the block and stick out.
I guess the knock sensor is just a microphone, and as you say it's the software that filters the noise from the signal. I don't think the LinkPlus has any utility for the end user or installer to modify the signal filtering.
I believe knock sensors "hear" knock that isn't audible by the driver. I haven't used the J&S Safeguard, but it has a good reputation. On their website, they describe how their product detects knock, or maybe even prevents knock, by detecting preignition.
You can read it here since my posts are so long: http://www.safeguard.20m.com/preignition.html 
My point is that a properly setup knock sensor should be able to hear stuff that is not audible by the driver. Not to mention the added noise of exhaust and whatever.
I thnk Safeguard's success comes from their filtering and intelligence that they've included in the product, allowing individual cylinders to be monitored and adjusted, as far as I know.
I'm sure the LinkPlus knock sensor filtering isn't this sophisticated. Although with two knock sensor inputs, it might help somehow.
Traction control isn't a high priority for my system, as it will be going on an all-wheel drive car without much of a traction problem.
As for my posts being long, I can type reasonably well, and I tend to write/post in a stream of consciousness fashion. Nobody's forced to read them! 








I'll look further into how prevalent knock sensors are for standalone engine management systems. I was primarily focused on the 5 cylinder aspect of my requirements, and don't like stepping backwards from factory safety features as I try to move forward with improvements. Even tho' other systems might not be workable for my application, I'll still check out the knock sensors stuff to see if I agree more with the points being raised.
Here's some info that supports the anti-knock position: 
http://www.autospeed.com/A_0430/page1.html?src=suggestions 
Unfortunately, the rest of the article is for members only, and I'm not a member.
Thanks for the response!
Later,
Ken


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## mrkrad (Nov 9, 2000)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (turboquattro)*

There's so many reasons for a knock sensor it's not funny.
I can think of a couple reasons why you wouldn't want that:
1. You run race gas - pretty hard to detonate on 114av unless...
2. You trust your fuel system so much.. (ie low fuel pressure, bad injector)..
Being able to pull out 10-20 degrees of timing when something goes wrong, worth it. For example on digi-1 which we program, there is a huge knock map, its tame at first couple pings/detonations, then goes to 4 degrees pullback, then 10, then 20.. 
Obviously something is seriously wrong once it reaches the max timing pullback, but its very likely if you are leaning out due to a fuel issue on the track/street, that this much timing pullback will reduce your power safely enough for you to notice that something is seriously wrong and stop wanking on the car.
I'll take that cheap sensor over a new headgasket or shattered piston anyday. We're not talking about big $$ item here...
And for those say say if you tune the car right, you don't need one, well, if you have one and tune the car right, you won't be using it. I can't imagine why someone would want to save $50-70 bucks VS their motor. 
Oh well rock on guys.


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## 2008cc (Apr 16, 2001)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? (mrkrad)*

I just got my Holley commander 950 up and running on my 2.0 16v turbo w/ TWM 50mm throttle bodies. Install was straight forward, and with a base map from 'oversteer' the car starts and idles great. Car will be getting dyno tuned in the next couple of days so I will keep everyone posted.


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## turboScirocco (Feb 4, 2002)

*Re: Most Popular engine management setup? ([email protected])*

I've been using Autronic for about 4 months and it's great... especially on a rarely hard tuned engine... I wouldnt have went with another stand-alone


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