# Total timing under boost with pump gas?



## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Nude pics of Carmen Elektra..........*

Well atleast I got your attention!Could you guys help a fellow turbo fanatic out by giving me some opinions on total timing under boost with pump gas? (92 octane)I have a well working map,but my stand alone system isn't hooked up for knock sensor so I hope I'm not detonating and can't hear it.If you can please help me out I appreciate your input,I'm just trying not to crack any more ring lands or burn holes through any more pistons.At my torque peak(4k-5k)I have 32 deg advance and am pulling out 11-12 deg. at 11-12 psi boost giving me total timing of 21-20 deg.Is this to much or to little timing in your guys opinions?BTW I have 8.5:1 compression.Thanks in advance!


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## KrautFed (Jan 9, 2002)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (SILVERADO)*

What a tease








...I don't think I would try and push a FI motor too far with-out knock sensing.


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## evoeone (Feb 27, 2002)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (KrautFed)*

you have SDS right silverrado? i think i saw on SDS that you could use a knock sensor as an option


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (evoeone)*

knock my left testi!
look at all the people that push thier motors to the LIMITS, like 500hp out of a 4 cyl motor. None of THEM use knock sensors.
You dont need one. A knock sensor isnt going to save your motor. If it knocks, it doesnt need a knock sensor, it needs a new owner!
anyways, i run sds, and i dont even use the ignition retard values. i have them set all to zero. For timing, i only use RPM, and I max out with 23deg.
This is for pump gas 93octane and 12-15psi of boost.(2 headgasketed ABA)


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## BUNNYLOVE (Jul 28, 2000)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (SILVERADO)*

I run 23 degrees total with 94 octane at 15-16psi and 23 degrees with 100oct. at 18psi. I also had SDS, 8.5:1 compression 8v.


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## 1QUIKVR (Dec 7, 2001)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (SILVERADO)*

that was just mean. Are you implying that the folks on this forum aren't willing to help without being tricked in to opening your post? Good thinking http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif I am going to try that(i noticed you had 200 views), and to tell the truth thats why i came in here. Had to check just in case it was true.


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (BrandonVR6)*

Thanks for the info youy guys,Speed,how is the drivability with the rpm only setup?I am glad that I wasn't pushing it to hard on the timing and that my car is running better every time I program new values into it. Aloha and Merry Xmas you guys!! BTW Speed,cool manifolds! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Bunnylove,thanks for your info too!

















[Modified by SILVERADO, 10:27 AM 12-4-2002]


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## keith_r2 (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (SILVERADO)*

Just for information:-
Using knock sensors reliabily, gets VERY complex in terms of what you are trying to make the DSP functions achieve.
Alot of car manufactrers use knock sensors up to about 4000RPM but then (due to loads of factors such as general engien noise) knock sensing is disabled. The manufacturers typically choose very tame ignition angles when out of the knock sensor listening band, to try and guarantee that knock will not be an issue...even with crap fuel etc.....
Some maufacturers even place accoustic sensors in the cylinder head as close as poss to the combustion chamber, that way you can pick up loads more (identifiable noise) accurate signals of actual pre ignition.
Cheers















Keith


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (keith_r2)*

drivability?
well, i commute to school like 20 miles every day, and i drive to chicago(from milwaukee) like 2 X a month, its a 2 hour drive, and I have driven to St Louis recently, and Detroit for the auto show last year.
NEVER had an issue with the ecu, or anything like that that happened during a trip, or anytime. I have broken things round here though, but just like transmissions and such.
Just tune the car rpm ignition only, as if you were at full throttle. You wont get the MOST power when your off the throttle, or cruising, but who cares??


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## vdubturbo (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (speed51133!)*

Glad I saw this, I was going to post a similar question....
Ok, well I just looked at my data log from my TEC-II from last night when I heard pinging. It started at:
5,700 rpm 
9.17 psi
32 degrees of advance
2/3 throttle
So, it would appear my timing is way too agressive, huh?
FYI: I don't have dyno time until Thursday morn, so these maps were generated by the WinTEC wizard...


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (vdubturbo)*

32deg of advance is alot for 9psi of boost. that shouls be more like 26 or so.
im not familiar with how tec maps out timing, this looks like a job for kevin.
give lugnuts an IM to post in here maybe.


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## vdubturbo (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (speed51133!)*

quote:[HR][/HR]32deg of advance is alot for 9psi of boost. that shouls be more like 26 or so.
im not familiar with how tec maps out timing, this looks like a job for kevin.
give lugnuts an IM to post in here maybe.[HR][/HR]​Sweet. I just set my advance curve to about 23 degrees across the board under boost. With high 20's in no load areas. 
Has anyone with a TEC used the auto calibrate V/E Table feature?


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## TheSaint (Jan 29, 2002)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (speed51133!)*

quote:[HR][/HR]im not familiar with how tec maps out timing, this looks like a job for kevin.
give lugnuts an IM to post in here maybe.[HR][/HR]​Kevin is the man, he actually "tuned" the turbonetics celica in its fist 200+ mph run, extended his arm out and claimed that he was tuning it, next thing you know.... 202mph on the damn board







, no lie, i was right there.


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## MeGaMoNk_turbo (Apr 21, 2001)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (TheSaint)*

to be on the safe side .... for a non cross flow motor like a g-60 i would run 20 degrees max. that is what my brother did and never cracked a piston at 16 psi max. soon as he went 24.....


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## GTibunny16v (Aug 12, 2001)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (speed51133!)*

quote:[HR][/HR]
Just tune the car rpm ignition only, as if you were at full throttle. You wont get the MOST power when your off the throttle, or cruising, but who cares??[HR][/HR]​
I dont know about you but by tuning your car to have more timing off boost will help spool the turbo when you floor it at lower rpms. It also gives you more power when your drivng around town where 1/4-1/3 throttle position is used. Something I know alot of people do. Not everyone is at WOT all the time.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (GTibunny16v)*

yeah, but who cares about power when your at 1/3 throttle?
i dont


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (speed51133!)*

I have been experimenting and it doesn't make any noticable power gains if I have my total timing 23 degrees or if I back it off to 20-19 degrees.I am going to run 19-20 for now and I heard of guys running as low as 12 degrees under high (above 15 psi) boost,but I think the egt's would skyrocket.I am now going to concentrate more on the fuel and my 16 valve head/front mount conversion,a cheap 1.8t beater that can be made up from cheap,readily available parts.I also heard the 16 valve head is less prone to detonate than the 8 valve one.I read in Turbo magazine a tuner saying "you want to keep it above 15 degrees at WOT",so that is something to think about,and he was at 20lbs of boost on a Mitsubishi 16 valve motor.Good luck to all you turbo/SC guys out there,may you never break a ring-land or melt half of your piston top off! Boost makes me


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## VW_NUT (Mar 16, 2000)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (SILVERADO)*

I run a 1.8L 16vt with 2 aba headgaskets & I can't seem to get past 13 psi & 20 deg total timing. Looks like I am going to have to pull out some more timing. A/f is at 11.5:1 so I so I should have enough fuel


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (VW_NUT)*

19deg is REALLY low. i run 23psi on pump with 15psi, and have zero problems. 8v motor, 2 headgaskets.
i would not listen to what a DSM motor guy does. every motor is different. 16v guys can run more advance just because of thier head. 23deg really isnt much at all. 
I can also add off of SDS's site that the difference between 1 or 2 degreese is marginal at best and doesnt make much of a difference at all.


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## vdubturbo (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (speed51133!)*

Well, just got back from the dyno.
I'm running 23 at 15psi also, but I didn't want to push it. Now to fix this F'n rich condition problem...


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (vdubturbo)*

Well,the last two days have been the best 2 days of running my car has ever had.I smoothed out my MAP fuel values and ran 18-20 degerees total timing and have my cam (sohc 8v) retarded 4 deg,and at 11psi with a 14psi "spike",it has turned into a fast car that actually scared me tonight.A short uphill stretch on my "test track"that I previously could take at only 90 I can now take at 110 before I run out of road,and this is uphill.Maybe it is the heating of the intake manifold or the crappy gas in Hawaii,or the general crappiness of the 8v counterflow head,but it seemed to wake up the motor with less advance.My egt's were 1200 but quickly cooled down to 800 after a minute at the stoplight.With more lead the power seemed to drop off after torque peak and the egts were too cool (1000 degrees )now it pulls better to redline.So for pump gas,this is what seems to work for me,until I bolt on that 16v head and front mount and T3/T4 and then the fun will begin. The speeds I am mentioning are in km/h of course,














Boost makes me










[Modified by SILVERADO, 10:30 AM 12-27-2002]


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (SILVERADO)*

silverado, happy to see youre having good results. you are on the right track from reading your last 2 posts. you learned that 3-4 degress *is* significant, its all about safety margin if its not making more torque then you dont need it. If you can hear detonation normally-then you can also hear it pre-igniting, so (risk getting kicked off of the internet here) who cares about EGT! haha sorry its a pet peeve. that said I do like to get the fuel really close before pushing the timing, but live and learn. aloha


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (lugnuts)*

Kevin,
What we really need is a combination spark plug/pressure transducer, in combination with a data logger taking a signal from a TDC mark so we can figure out when (in degrees atdc) timing is optimal for (max torque) then keep it there.
I did manage to find two mfr of such things but they are a *way* out of my price range...I'm curious if you've looked for this sort of thing and (if you have) what you've run across...
regards,
Peter T.


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## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (SILVERADO)*

I'm running 5 to 12 degrees at peak torque (2800 to 4200 rpm) and never see more than 20 degrees when running WOT. Of course it's a different engine.
http://forums.audiworld.com/tt/msgs/783506.phtml


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (Peter Tong)*

What we really need is a combination spark plug/pressure transducer, in combination with a data logger taking a signal from a TDC mark so we can figure out when (in degrees atdc) timing is optimal for (max torque) then keep it there.>>>
The beauty of it all is the dyno down the street tells us what torque is being made, so the optimal timing (btdc, I only run atdc for anti-lag haha) is found rather quickly. As much as i want to know what the peak cylinder pressures are, and the duration and shape of the curve in relation to piston position, the "correct, optimal values" of this subject are more controversial than abortion, (its just an example) - although it could be said that we should all be "Pro Life" when thinking about out pistons!


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (lugnuts)*

quote:[HR][/HR]What we really need is a combination spark plug/pressure transducer, in combination with a data logger taking a signal from a TDC mark so we can figure out when (in degrees atdc) timing is optimal for (max torque) then keep it there.>>>
The beauty of it all is the dyno down the street tells us what torque is being made, so the optimal timing (btdc, I only run atdc for anti-lag haha) is found rather quickly. As much as i want to know what the peak cylinder pressures are, and the duration and shape of the curve in relation to piston position, the "correct, optimal values" of this subject are more controversial than abortion, (its just an example) - although it could be said that we should all be "Pro Life" when thinking about out pistons!
[HR][/HR]​Hi Kevin,
I agree with you 100% - its just that I'd like mapping for not only WOT but also for all of the part throttle load positions off idle. If you had a tool like that you could run it on the dyno to get max torque, note the degrees atdc, and get your part throttle maps right on - instead of guessing. You could also "see" the extent of detonation/pre-ignition as a tuning aid.
Just my $.02 worth...


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

*Re: Nude pics of Carmen Elektra.......... (Peter Tong)*

agreed, steve nichols and i were talking about these a few years ago. it would be pretty awesome to let the ecu do all of the tuning based on the readings. just like anything else - the cost will come down over time. lots of time haha


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## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: lots of time haha (lugnuts)*

I don’t think so, SAE paper 2000-01-0932 – Cylinder-Pressure-Based Engine Control Using Pressure-Ratio-Management and Low-Cost Non-Intrusive Cylinder Pressure Sensors. The paper showed how you can do spark timing, EGR control, knock and misfire detection, cylinder-to-cylinder A/F balancing and cold start control. Nice benefit included closed loop control of cold engine.
What I liked even better was SAE paper 2001-01-0995 – Engine Control Using Torque Estimation. Here they are able to generate cylinder pressure curves based on the engine speed signal from a standard 60-tooth gear. What’s nice about this is today’s microcontrollers can easily handle the computations. I wish my car had this and a way to get the pressure curve data. You can download this paper from Delphi Automotive website.


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: lots of time haha (john s)*

Thanks for your encouragement Lugnuts, aka Kevin,I am looking forward to some dyno time to make it even better,but I am getting a wide-band and hope to have that aid me in my quest for power.I am very happy with the results from "street tuning" with the onboard a/f gauge,egt, and SDS,I've got it to run reliably,powerfully,and so far so good,good compression and way more power than ever.Happy holidays everybody!! BTW what do you guys think about those Audi/VW motors that run from 5-15 degrees timing under boost,that trips me out,should I try to pull mine back even more?How do those motors cope with such retarded timing?I have heard from other guys the 1.8 t runs 5 degrees at torque peak!Is this BS?Aloha Boost makes me


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## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: should I try to pull mine back (SILVERADO)*









Obviously you don't want any more timing retard or fuel enrichment than necessary since it will reduce your torque. If your spark plugs look good, exhaust temp ok and you don't hear knocking then maybe you're ok. You could try some race gas. If nothing changes then you're ok. If performance is better then maybe you had some knock, maybe different fuel density that's changing A/F or maybe better heating value of fuel. Further investigation would be required. You can find some knock papers on this thread:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=611192
There is an ignition timing performance curve depicted in Bosch's ME7 engine controller paper. The paper describes how torque management is accomplished. There are 2-dimensional maps for theoretical torque and spark timing. The indices are relative charge (load) and engine speed. Spark timing is given as the point that would maximize torque for the given charge-speed point if sufficient octane were available. The theoretical torque is modified by 3 factors, relative A/F ratio (lambda), spark point deviation and cylinder fuel cut-off.
Spark deviation is a characteristic curve comprised of all operating points of the engine. The shape of the curve therefore depends only on engine design and not on operating point. Each engine made has its own characteristic curve. Shown above is one such curve. For example if the theoretical best ignition point is 25 degrees after top dead center (say full load at 3000 rpm) and the controller, based on current conditions, decides that 5 degrees after top dead center is the point that the engine needs to run then a 20 percent loss in torque is experienced.
The controller tries to minimize a combined function of fuel consumption and emissions. If you ask for a lot of torque and this requires a high cylinder pressure and accordingly a high degree of ignition retard then the controller will look for a better operating point that supplies the same net torque. A reduction in charge pressure takes more time than a reduction in timing advance, so from a dynamic standpoint the best point can change with time even if the requested torque is constant.
On turbocharged applications a secondary loop estimates (or measures) exhaust temperature and if the temperature exceeds 950°C then a lambda curve correction (enrichment) is applied to prevent the temperature from rising further.
ME7 link


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

*Re: should I try to pull mine back (john s)*

beautiul information John!, I shall deem your new nickname to be:
"Lord of the (4) Rings"
...yeah, that stuck!


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## PARTY_BOY (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: should I try to pull mine back (lugnuts)*

BUMP keep this turd floating


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## vdubturbo (Aug 31, 2001)

*Re: should I try to pull mine back (PARTY_BOY)*

My rule of thumb when timing a boosted car...
Reduce Ignition timing by ___ degrees for every lb of manifold pressure. So,
Conservative: 1.25 degrees/psi
Normal: 1.00 degrees/psi
Agressive: 0.75 degrees/psi
So if you run 30 degrees in vacuum, using a normal approach, you would run 23 degrees @ 7psi and so on, linerally interpolating in between the points. Simple and effective. 
Individual engine characteristics will change the circumstances a bit, but you get the idea.


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## TheSpilDog (Mar 12, 2000)

*Re: should I try to pull mine back (vdubturbo)*

Here are my values and dyno plots... BTW, my engine is a 1.8T. You can see my specs on http://cars.vwsport.com/thespildog/index.html
At 11 psi of boost, I am running 28 degrees advance on pump gas. This yielded 217 WHP on a mustang dyno with a quite rich A/F (about 11.9 12:1 a/f)
Here is the dyno for that








At 18 psi of boost, again on pump gas and on the same dyno, I did 255 WHP running 18 degrees advance with a very rich air fuel curve which you will see in the pics below. I'm sure I can run some more timing or/and a leaner air fuel curve but remember my compression ratio is the stock 9.3:1.
Here are the pics to those
















So it all depends on your af curve too, however, I beleive with you compression ratio, that you can run some more timing for sure. I would go on the dyno though in order to fine tune your af curve.


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## Peter Tong (Jun 17, 1999)

*Re: should I try to pull mine back (john s)*

John,
I read the pdf regarding ME7 with much enjoyment. If you have the link to the cylinder pressure based engine management I'd like to read that one also...
regards,
Peter T.


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## john s (Nov 14, 2000)

*Re: paper (Peter Tong)*

http://www.delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/2000-01-0932.pdf
Paper nicely done, you're going to like it. However as was shown in later paper you can fully categorize the speed sensing gear and crankshaft, dispensing with the pressure sensors altogether!


[Modified by john s, 12:29 AM 1-1-2003]


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## SILVERADO (May 16, 2002)

*Re: paper (john s)*

Spildog,that is a awesome dyno plot.You are definitely doing it right!I am waiting for my wideband and will be tuning my a/f soon.Thanks for your input.You are a true enthusiast willing to help out others,that is the best kind of enthusiast,hoping other people don't run into the same problems (blowing motors,etc.)that some of us have experienced.


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## turbojeta3 (Feb 23, 2002)

*Re: paper (SILVERADO)*

and silverado your equally helpful.


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## TheSpilDog (Mar 12, 2000)

*Re: paper (SILVERADO)*

don't worry about it... It's my pleasure... However, I have blown a motor too!!








I used to have a 2.0 8 valve... my fuel pump died under boost and a damaged cylinder no4


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