# What pumps, exchanegrs, set-ups are you using with your AWIC?



## stntman (Sep 19, 2002)

I read once in a thread somewhere that they used an aux water pump from some car as their pump. I am piecing together my set-up and would like to hear your stories, and set-ups.

I searcehd a few different things but didnt find what i was looking for or pics are dead. If i blatanly missed one please feel free to aim low on the insults.










thanks guys


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## prometheus_ (Oct 6, 2009)

last i heard about using VR pumps is that they are crap and can't handle it for too long.
personally i'm going to be getting a pump from meziere, but some people run marine pumps instead to save a little bit of money.

either way you look at it, getting a quality pump in the $200-300 designed for the abuse is better than spending $100 on a couple of oem ones that are prone to fail and dont flow the ideal amounts


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## wabbitGTl (Jan 2, 2007)

i'm running a setup from frozenboost.com with their intercooler core, heat exchanger, and rule pump. just like this one, but with a different size heat exchanger. 

http://www.frozenboost.com/product_...=1006&osCsid=2670e6a86dddebba8da5f84745157ee3

This thread also has some pretty good information. 

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...er-intercooler-syatem-users-I-have-a-question


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

prometheus_ said:


> last i heard about using VR pumps is that they are crap and can't handle it for too long.
> personally i'm going to be getting a pump from meziere, but some people run marine pumps instead to save a little bit of money.
> 
> either way you look at it, getting a quality pump in the $200-300 designed for the abuse is better than spending $100 on a couple of oem ones that are prone to fail and dont flow the ideal amounts


Actually VR pumps are the "good pump" upgrade on most kits that are available. Ford also uses it for factory awic supercharged motors.


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## blubayou (Oct 3, 2001)

what is the accepted ideal flow rate for the pumps? I would imagine it is related to the overall system (h/e sizing, water volume, heated air volume/flow, etc).

For example, I have a Johnson cm30 pump that I scored for next to nothing (around 7gpm max flow), along with this exchanger from a Magnusson Yukon/Tahoe supercharger setup (also bought for a song):










This will be run on my ABA with Neuspeed supercharger (Eaton m45 - topping out at/under 350cfm, I think) through a 6x6x2.5" Bell AWIC core.


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## blubayou (Oct 3, 2001)

btw, that image is in the front of a truck. The h/e looks just a tad bigger when stuck in the front of my mk2 :laugh:


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## Mathdiesel (Sep 13, 2005)

The Bosch Cobra pump =/= Bosch pump found on VR6's
It is quite a bit bigger, look at the specs:
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/images/product/BOSCH-0392022002.pdf
Should be enough for most setup, i decided to go with a Mezeire, more expensive, but the flow rate isn't comparable. I'm using Frozen Boost I/C core and heat exchanger. Reservoir is made from an aluminium fuel cell converted to reservoir.

No review, as it isn't ready to run yet


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## prometheus_ (Oct 6, 2009)

The amount of flow you need depends on the amount of water in your systemand how much cfm youre pushing.
I'm going to be pushing close to 600cfm (iirc) and running a 2.5 - 3 gallon tank

also keep in mind that that GPH rating is typically optimal flow with perfect everything. Its usually a good bit lower in reality. Also, the bosch vr pump is not the same as the bosch cobra. The cobra is the ford pump


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

wabbitGTl said:


> i'm running a setup from frozenboost.com with their intercooler core, heat exchanger, and *rule pump*.



Curious as to how long those hold up? The Vr/Cobra pumps fail on the car in their intended function (ie secondary water pump) therefore I also question how good they actually are in any other application.


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## blubayou (Oct 3, 2001)

@ prometheus_

Basing pump size on volume of water and airflow makes sense, though there are obviously other variables in there, such as the efficiency of the heat exchangers, no?

I'm sure someone with a bigger calculator than mine has come up with some rough formula for these variables, to find the unknown(s).

Concerning the ratings, they are typically given with no resistance (head) and some will specify the gpm/hr at a given psi, too


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## stntman (Sep 19, 2002)

those of you that are running the bosch, cobra, VR6 secondary pumps, how often have you had them fail?

what motor set-ups are you running them on?


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## leebro61 (Nov 7, 2001)

blubayou said:


> I'm sure someone with a bigger calculator than mine has come up with some rough formula for these variables, to find the unknown(s).


I built a pretty elaborate thermal model of an intercooler (with the capability to handle both air/air and air/water exchange). If you have any particular setups to analyze (ex: different system capacities, different flow rates, etc.), I could probably tell you directionally which one is better than the other. Quantifying absolute numbers in a heat transfer problem is always difficult since the heat transfer coefficient correlations are always empirical and typically with +/- 20% uncertainty.


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## wabbitGTl (Jan 2, 2007)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> Curious as to how long those hold up? The Vr/Cobra pumps fail on the car in their intended function (ie secondary water pump) therefore I also question how good they actually are in any other application.


I can't really comment on the Rule pumps as I've only had the car running for a week. I believe they are the pump frozenboost supplies standard with their setups, and the Bosch is an option.


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## prometheus_ (Oct 6, 2009)

blubayou said:


> @ prometheus_
> 
> Basing pump size on volume of water and airflow makes sense, though there are obviously other variables in there, such as the efficiency of the heat exchangers, no?
> 
> ...


The way I see it, fit as big a heat exchange as you can without totally blocking your rad 
I don't have AC anymore so 26x7x2 is what I'll be rolling


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

wabbitGTl said:


> I can't really comment on the Rule pumps as I've only had the car running for a week. I believe they are the pump frozenboost supplies standard with their setups, and the *Bosch is an option*.


Correct but as I've replaced a few of these over the yrs I know they are not that robust either that's why I'm questioning how well they hold up in other applications.

Be sure to report back on the Rule too tho as you get some more time on it. :thumbup:


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## blubayou (Oct 3, 2001)

prometheus_ said:


> The way I see it, fit as big a heat exchange as you can without totally blocking your rad
> I don't have AC anymore so 26x7x2 is what I'll be rolling


That seems to be the common answer - just go as big as you can! :thumbup:


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## blubayou (Oct 3, 2001)

leebro61 said:


> I built a pretty elaborate thermal model of an intercooler .....


I'm going to roll with what I have now, but if I feel it isn't sufficient I may hit you up to try and find the weak point. At any rate, it will be better than it was before (non-intercooled SC)!


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

you need to flow as much water as possible, pumps with 1" or bigger ports, also if you could find 1" ID fittings and hoses for all the places water flow it will be better, the biggest radiator you could find and the Ice box or reservoir is not really necessary unless you are putting ice in it, other than that its just extra weight when driving it on the street. IC core sizing is determined by flow rates of air mostly the water can take care of the cooling no mater the size as long as its flowing plenty. 

I run two bosh pumps and 3/4 lines, hoping to upgrade in the future to 1" or dual 3/4".


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## prometheus_ (Oct 6, 2009)

that's an AWFUL lot of water to be pushing.
a good pump running 1/2" NPT (or AN equiv) with the appropriate core is more than sufficient for most things under 1000hp.

my setup is jsut the single line and a 600hp core.
The difference really comes in the size of the resevoir you run and how big of a heat exchange.

Bigger resevoir = distributes the heat evenly throught the water
Bigger exchanger = better heat dissapation

However, there's a fine line between too big and too small. Too small and it's not effective combating heat soak, and too big it becomes too heavy for the gains.

On top of that, you need to keep in mind that you don't want to get a pump that flows TOO much.
The water needs to spend SOME time in the heat exchange and resevoir, otherwise it won't be losing any heat.

Personally my tank will be probably be about 2.5 gallons. I don't want to run without a tank simply because my engine bay gets mighty hot as is, and any water in there isn't going to be keeping that cool.

I need a better job than the **** im in now. Only thing holding me back is my CC and I can't pay it off fast enough :thumbdown:


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

prometheus_ said:


> that's an AWFUL lot of water to be pushing.
> a good pump running 1/2" NPT (or AN equiv) with the appropriate core is more than sufficient for most things under 1000hp.
> 
> my setup is jsut the single line and a 600hp core.
> ...



water transfers heat extremely well thats why the sizes of the intercooler cores are small in AWIC setups, specially if you see the side where water flows, it has small cavities compared to the air flow side therefore it is better to move as much water as you can through the IC. 

you need all of that water to bring the temperatures back to steady state after a hard pull as soon as possible. 

it was found that with a good size water path 1" or more you can stay at 5* above ambient once the system reached equilibrium and after a good pull through most gears it will be up to 20* and taking less than 30 sec to go back down to equilibrium ....... similar in comparison as an Air to air but the best part is that AWIC is more consistent ..... has usually a shorter charge path and if equipped with a reservoir you can have temps way below ambient. Ice is good for short races though, Auto x and 1/4 mile runs because you should not run a radiator if you use Ice it will actually warm up the ice water. 


have you checked this out ?
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...er-intercooler-syatem-users-I-have-a-question

tons of good info on that thread I started when I built my setup.

Also on your comment that water is not going to spend much time cooling on the rad, Thats is the reason why you get the biggest one you can :thumbup:


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## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

huichox4 said:


> IC core sizing is determined by flow rates of air mostly the water can take care of the cooling no mater the size as long as its flowing plenty.
> 
> I run two bosh pumps and 3/4 lines, hoping to upgrade in the future to 1" or dual 3/4".


My thoughts exactly. I'd figure that if the water-heat transfering system is efficient you would not need a ridiculously sized AWIC core. That being said what size AWIC are you using? I figure a "modest" sized core with a good pump and heat exchanger would be the ideal setup (daily driving use-not a dedicated track car).


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## huichox4 (Nov 8, 2004)

I have one of this 

http://www.siliconeintakes.com/prod...d=204&osCsid=ffe0a2f0c0a8210c346330a7e1d1b8bb 

600hp capable one, it works good but havent tested in the summer here in WA (Seattle area) our summer has been pretty cold and it has rained quite a bit, plus my car is under the knife right now for a next upgrade.


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## prometheus_ (Oct 6, 2009)

thats exactly the one im ordering


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## Sparknock (Feb 25, 2004)

HAHA now that i have A/W cooler...time to hore pictures out.
lay out on the set up
i got the frozen boost boost 24x1x12 heat exchanger(it fits real well where the a/c condencer goes in front of the radiator)
the pump is off a SVT mustang they (make about 400 hp) and the pump is like 317 gph
i had my intercooler made from a garrett core

picture horing time


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## Cuyler12VGLXVR6T (Jun 13, 2006)

I use a 1000gph (16.6gpm) marine pump w/ 5g buket in the trunk and I used an old corrado smic as my heat exchanger. Oh, lots of washer hose in between. cheap and effective:beer:


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## dasbeast3.0 (Aug 15, 2007)

Stewart Components electric waterpump converted to 1" 3300 gph. All 1" water lines, and a modified LFP ford cobra dual pass heat exchanger (had it converted to use 1" npt fittings).
1000hp Precision core, 6 gal reserve tank. I designed it for very high flow.


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## A2TDI (Apr 8, 2004)

I uses a huge electric boat bilge pump it works very well.


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