# Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA



## 97_trek (Jul 19, 2007)

i figure c2 is the easiest path but was wondering what other method would work?


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## the_q_jet (Mar 19, 2005)

*FV-QR*

c2


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*FV-QR*

MoTeC


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## badazzgti88 (May 2, 2006)

*Re: FV-QR (sp_golf)*

go full standalone O34-efi all the way


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: FV-QR (badazzgti88)*


_Quote, originally posted by *badazzgti88* »_go full standalone O34-efi all the way

X2


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (97_trek)*

http://www.lugtronic.com


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## badazzgti88 (May 2, 2006)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_http://www.lugtronic.com

good deal and less hassle but for 300$ more you can go O34 and I don't think there's much out there that beats O34. Still good deal.


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (badazzgti88)*

OKI. I've been installing and tuning stand alone ECU's in VW's for 10 years, so I already know this answer....
BUT - 
What, in your opinion, makes the 034 ECU better than the Lugtronic in any way?
Your opinion is very very misinformed. 
But I like hearing what my potential customers are looking for, so your opinion and any others are welcome.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA ([email protected])*

034 is perfect if you like clinging to gonads that are pendulum-like in action. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (DieGTi)*

BTW, I have the 034 engine and transmission mounts for my B5 A4 Quattro and they're a quality product. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (DieGTi)*

No comment on your comments, lol. 
But seriously, I have been doing this for 10 years. From what I see, the people that say things like "XXX is the best" have simply never used anything else, and or their friends uncles brother used it, etc.
I've tuned 15+ stand alone systems, and I'd like to hear comments about what people think makes one better than another. 
I've certainly heard from multiple customers that the systems I provide them with allowed for better and quicker tuning that their previous experiences.


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA ([email protected])*

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif for Lugtronic ECU!!! i know i have it so my opinion is maybe one sided... but just for the fact that its a plug and play system, means you pull your stock ECU off the engine harness and connect the Lugtronic ECU back onto it... and drive and tune away or have kev tune it for you







http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ...cant beat that! (well unless you order the custom wiring for the Lugtronic and not the PnP...) plus the customer support that Kevin gives you is top notch... 

***kev, are you gonna come out with stickers for Lugtronic?







i kinda made my own at work...








sorry for the thread jack... to the OP, lmk if you want me to erase it...


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## the_q_jet (Mar 19, 2005)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *badazzgti88* »_
good deal and less hassle but for 300$ more you can go O34 and I don't think there's much out there that beats O34. Still good deal.


wow really...stop talking.


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *the_q_jet* »_
wow really...stop talking.

Why ? He is entitled to his opinion like everyone is entitled to there own.

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
What, in your opinion, makes the 034 ECU better than the Lugtronic in any way?
Your opinion is very very misinformed

Kevin,
First off I will start by saying you know how much I respect you & your work ,always have and always will. 
Every vehicle that has been built using Autronic/VEMS (lugtronic) that made X power with your systems has been matched or almost matched with a 034 counterpart.
I am in no way saying 034 is worse OR better than Lugtronic but you know what it boils down to...
* support
* support
* support
Those are the key features that 034 users look for. The days of 034 vs XXX ecu are over (for me at least) as we have gone out there and proven what both the ECU & the support BEHIND the ECU are about.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (INA)*

So it's not about the features now.














You can choose your weapons but not your battles...


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## TheArchitect (May 4, 2006)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (DieGTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DieGTi* »_So it's not about the features now.














You can choose your weapons but not your battles...

Features?
Like what?


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (DieGTi)*

Thanks for the kind words. I have some input as well.
*** It is not just about power
*** It is not just about power
*** It is not just about power
I don't BS and I'm a terrible salesman. I probably talk myself out of 5-10 ecu sales a year at least.
I have been telling people for years that I can make about the same power with any ECU, I know this because I'm the one who tunes a million ecus.
I also know which ones have the features I like to make the tuning AND logging/display easier / quicker / more accurate / more reliable, and also give you the best value once you factor in things like boost control and wideband logging/display.

Customer support is important. I'm not a 16 person company like 034 is so they have a numbers advantage there.
I offer good support, and remote (internet) and live tuning.
I strive to make the ecu and maps so that the customer has the best running car right off the bat. That, to me counts toward support. 
A capable product.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (TheArchitect)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TheArchitect* »_
Features?
Like what?

The sky is the limit for open source vs. proprietary systems. Cost per feature/capability is not a comparison that will benefit 034 relative to lugtronic/ms. Brand afinityand enthusiasm by Issam drive the 034 marketing machine and that's not a bad thing. They have to eat too but let's not go blind feeding them.


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (DieGTi)*

I'd like for more users to see this and give their input. 
I can offer mine based on supplying what my customers have been asking for over the years.
I'm just tired of uninformed BS floating around here based on peoples post counts and forcing products down peoples throats.
I like 034 overall as a company. They offer a lot of performance products and they are more successful then I'm sure I will ever be.

However, If you do a direct comparison of 034 vs other ecus: 
--------------------------------
Cost: 
034 to Lugtronic = Lugtronic 
034 with an aftermarket wideband to Lugtronic = Lugtronic by a mile.
034 to Lugnuts Autronic/ViPEC = 034 by a bit.
034 with any aftermarket multi stage boost controller to Lugnuts Autronic/ViPEC = Autronic/ViPEC.
--------------------------------------
Features:
034 to Lugtronic = Lugtronic by a good amount
034 to ViPEC / Autronic = ViPEC/Autronic by a mile
------------------------------------
Flexibility and User Adjustability:
034 to Lugtronic = Lugtronic
034 to ViPEC / Autronic = not even in the same zip code
-------------------------------------
Lets just tell it like it is here folks. 
If someone is telling you any different, they just don't know any better because they havent used anything else (or been shown how to use it properly)


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (DieGTi)*

When i bought many years ago 034EFI was ther best out there and had just as many features as MS (but not MoTec and other much higher priced units) but it was the support that sold me!
Today Lugtronic does have some nice features i would like (egt) but it is not any cheaper than the setup I'm using, even if i had to buy now. and the support has been amazing http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to 034. I had never tuned EFI when i started and i really liked how 034 is set up. The tunig manual is very good and made it easy to understand how to use my prior carb tuning knoledge to tune the ECU. especially the timing part. of all the software I've seen and used, 034 is the best for someone who isnt a computer/math geek. MS tuning manual sucks, the software was built by geeks for geeks. Yes i understand it, but takes more time to think/understand what to change to get what you want out of it. Yes Ive used MS and its getting better as far as features but the support just isn't in the same ballpark.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to lugtronic for what he does, i havent used it (yet), but it seems much better than MS, even if it does use the same code.
dont put down what you dont know!


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (Rocco R16V)*

Thank you for your opinion.
Just to clarify:
*** Lugtronic is not Megasquirt ***
*** Not the same hardware or code.

*** Lugtronic is based off of VEMS, and yes it does use a modified Megatune program.

*** What Lugtronic does is offer a *** finished product with support to allow the user the easiest possible ecu install and tune ***
*** I hate the geek stuff just as much if not more than you guys. With Lugtronic you won't have any of it.
Prices:
$1195 - Lugtronic VEMS Wire-in ECU (and onboard wideband and egt) 
$1750 - 034 Stage IIC with no wideband


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA ([email protected])*

And I believe that last comment isnt directed at me? Because I know the 034efi in and out. Remember I tune cars for a living, I have used almost every standalone on the market. I have tuned 15 setups on 034efi.
Also, with the Lugtronic I provide a tuning manual with information based on 10+ years of setting numerous records in VW racing.


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## TheArchitect (May 4, 2006)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA ([email protected])*

Tell me about the features difference between 034 and lugtronics/Vems.
Skip the wideband portion, I'm not so sure the Vems wideband can be considered a feature.
Also when will lugtronics/Vems create their own tuning interface and stop riding on the MS coat tail?
Oh and how long does a wideband sensor last with the Vems onboard windeband controller before its ruined?


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (TheArchitect)*

How about we have a professional discussion about our products, without the sniping?
The features list is on my website. Along with many that are not listed because I take them for granted because of using higher end ecus often.
The wideband design is very solid. I have 1.8t, 16vt and VR6T cars running, all daily driven, that are on their *first* sensor after 3-6 months.
I have tested the wideband, in two separate cars, on different days, against our Dynojet wideband with a 7 day old sensor.

The ecu wideband log perfectly mirrored the dyno log. 
And the numbers were within .1 to .2 like you can expect to see when you compare any two widebands together.

Also there is another program available to tune the ecu, I choose not to use it because I like the modified megatune better.
Next questions?


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## [email protected] (Feb 3, 2009)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (TheArchitect)*


_Quote, originally posted by *INA* »_
Why ? He is entitled to his opinion like everyone is entitled to there own.

Kevin,
First off I will start by saying you know how much I respect you & your work ,always have and always will. 
Every vehicle that has been built using Autronic/VEMS (lugtronic) that made X power with your systems has been matched or almost matched with a 034 counterpart.
I am in no way saying 034 is worse OR better than Lugtronic but you know what it boils down to...
* support
* support
* support
Those are the key features that 034 users look for. The days of 034 vs XXX ecu are over (for me at least) as we have gone out there and proven what both the ECU & the support BEHIND the ECU are about.










Ed on steves name. I would like to conter this by making a statement. Why did we have to call 034 several times to troubleshoot a map sensor upgrade that was done inhouse and get no answer, have no information given to us and just a shrug of shoulders as to why the problem had occured or any way to trouble shoot the issue at all.
I am not an 034 user, I have not purchased more than a few things from 034, but in technical dealings about these ecus other than someone answering the phone everytime, there has been no help for more than basic questions.

_Quote, originally posted by *TheArchitect* »_Tell me about the features difference between 034 and lugtronics/Vems.
Skip the wideband portion, I'm not so sure the Vems wideband can be considered a feature.
Also when will lugtronics/Vems create their own tuning interface and stop riding on the MS coat tail?
Oh and how long does a wideband sensor last with the Vems onboard windeband controller before its ruined?


This is the same argument that many people have observed and posted about priorly. Not only is lugtronic a superior product being looked at monetarily but also with respect to function and features. If people want to "go there" 034 is nothing more than a renamed ecu that simply has an 034 sticker on it rather than another one. I can do a quick web search if anyone has any disbelief of this statement and can prove it to be true.
While lugtronic may be based off of a VEMS product the plug in is manufactured inhouse and is the most direct setup for the applications listed. I make the backplates for the plug-ins on my mill and kevin does the wiring himself for the oem connectors, this is not a sticker swap application.


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## TheArchitect (May 4, 2006)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA ([email protected])*

But you havnt answered any questions yet.
And sniping?
Its you here telling all these fine folks about how lugtronic it better than 034, should I have to go to your website to read about all these features, or are you going to enlighten us with a response?
This thread was about whats the best fuel management for 2.0T ABA.
An appropriate response would have been, XYZ and then move on, not continually dwell on why yours is (reportedly) better.

OK more questions.
Is lugtronics/Vems an event based or is it a degree based ECU?
What is the measured timing accuracy (in degrees) of a Vems ECU?
What is the injector timing accuracy of same?
What is the dwell accuracy of same?
Ever had one of these on a scope and measured?
The processor used in Vems is a TOY compared to the processor used on the 034 equipment, its an 8 bit 16mhz processor, lacking enough hardware timers to to the task its designed for. Not having a single timer per injector and ignition event puts your product at a major disadvantage performance wise, one that would be easy to measure.
Having a rather slow processor as lugtronics/Vems and also having to multiplex the available hardware timers in software introduces variable processing lags that manifest as timing jitter of both injectors as well as timing jitter, particularly at high RPMs (small timing errors become large degree errors at high RPMS).
Also what kind of timing lag/lead can we expect to see on an accelerating or decelerating engine with Vems? Talk to Ray Hall about this, he knows all about this issue with Autronic. This issue KILLS engines, though we dont hear too much about this now do we?
I really dont care how many 034 ECUs you may have tuned, the fact of the matter is YOU are a vender and venders seldom have anything good to say about equipment they dont sell, and therefor your opinion in the matter is somewhat biased.


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## TheArchitect (May 4, 2006)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
If people want to "go there" 034 is nothing more than a renamed ecu that simply has an 034 sticker on it rather than another one. I can do a quick web search if anyone has any disbelief of this statement and can prove it to be true.


You sir are in error here.
034 is a DIRECT part of the development of this ECU, they do almost ALL the features development testing in house, and are by far closer to the development and manufacturing then you are to Vems.
So please do prove it.
You are speaking with the designer here.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (TheArchitect)*

TheArchitect - you're asking questions and he's answering them and then you're giving him a hard time for answering, then asking him to move on while asking more questions. I'm not sure I follow the logic there...
If we're going to make this thread about product education and hear from the Forcefed guys on their product then let's share a bit about the 034 computers.
http://www.panteraefi.com/


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA ([email protected])*

034 has fully mapable boost control! The IC is $1175, fewer drivers but great for a 4cyl. with LC1 within $100 of lugtronic
One thing I really like about my 034 is it was easy to get OEM like runability. Living in the PNW you can see 30deg and 85deg in the same day. cold starts/warm up works great, really cold out? Just turn the key and it runs. Never seen and only heard of a few others who have this kind of OEM functionality with other SEM's
Sorry I confused Lugtronic with megasquirt, to me code is software, what’s the difference? if you refer to firmware as code, how can it be different than megasquirt?
from lugtronic site
"Is LugTronic the same as megasquirt?
No, although it uses a modified megatune software, the hardware, processor, code, etc. is completely different."
Can Lugtronic's WB be set up so what the ECU sees as stoic is actually your target A/F ratio?
With 034 and LC1 I can, this makes reading the logs super easy, and logging is essential to a good tune.
I'm in no way dissing Lugtronic, in fact for those who dont like wiring it a great choice! but dont diss 034, because to some great support is well worth a little extra cost.


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_And I believe that last comment isnt directed at me? Because I know the 034efi in and out. Remember I tune cars for a living, I have used almost every standalone on the market. I have tuned 15 setups on 034efi.
Also, with the Lugtronic I provide a tuning manual with information based on 10+ years of setting numerous records in VW racing.


comment was absolutly not directed at you
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif to you


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## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Ed on steves name. I would like to conter this by making a statement. Why did we have to call 034 several times to troubleshoot a map sensor upgrade that was done inhouse and get no answer, have no information given to us and just a shrug of shoulders as to why the problem had occured or any way to trouble shoot the issue at all.

Ed, you called us several times in one day about a 1+ year old ECU, and asked us to overnight a MAP sensor to you for free. We offered to have you send back the ECU and have us test it, and repair anything that needed to be replaced. 
At that point, you started cussing at me, and hung up. I understand that your customer was pressuring you to get the job done by a deadline, but we had no prior notice, and, in all reality, almost everyone wants to see their project done as soon as possible. In fact, even after your tirade, Javad called you up on his own time to try to rectify the situation.
Just like any other company, we have warranty and replacement policies. We don't front parts, period.

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_I am not an 034 user, I have not purchased more than a few things from 034, but in technical dealings about these ecus other than someone answering the phone everytime, there has been no help for more than basic questions.

We walk people through the installation and tuning step by step over the phone, via email, and over the Motorgeek forums on a regular basis. We are willing to give every customer here as much support as they need to reach their goals with our ECU.
We have 4 full time employees who have installed and tuned these systems on countless VW/Audi applications, as well as many others.
Hell, we even helped an 90+ year old customer who just finished putting together a hand-built car that he started working on before World War 2 get his car up and running on one of our systems after he was dicked around by countless other ECU suppliers.

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_This is the same argument that many people have observed and posted about priorly. Not only is lugtronic a superior product being looked at monetarily but also with respect to function and features. If people want to "go there" 034 is nothing more than a renamed ecu that simply has an 034 sticker on it rather than another one. I can do a quick web search if anyone has any disbelief of this statement and can prove it to be true.

Yet again you're going off vaguely about superiority of features without any direct data. VEMS claims to have many features that 034 may not, but whether those functions actually are - well, functional - is still up for debate.
As for us just slapping a sticker onto another ECU, I'll leave you with Javad's answer to your same accusation a year ago in this thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3731896

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_In reference to Ed's GTI and others who are saying that we are simply "slapping our logo" on a pre-existing product, mindlessly, I would like to address that accusation.
If you've simply done some online searches, its easy to see how one could misconstrue the true nature of the relationship that goes on in the development, design, manufacturing and implementation of our 034EFI ECU.
Yes, its true, the basic hardware, firmware and GUI are one between Pantera EFI, Redline and 034EFI. In early 2000 I, with the owner of Pantera and a highly skilled software engineer began development of a new Standalone ECU (as we were all tired of dealing with the existing product that was out and felt we could do something better). To increase economies of scale (more volume to lower cost and thus price) we have leveraged several distributors to different applications very successfully. In reality, what is trying to be made look like a fault is actually a benefit to the technology and economics, which all directly benefit our end users.
If you'd like to make it sound like 034EFI wandered across this hardware one day and has been getting some sort of free ride off someone elses hard work, you could not misunderstand the situation more. 034EFI is integral is the design, development and testing of this ECU product every step of the way, we at 034EFI know the product as intimately as anyone out there as its evolved from much of our own input, testing, R&D and implementation.
We are not ashamed that the hardware is shared by a few companies who distribute it into different applications, we at 034 have exclusive rights to market the product to the VW/Audi market, and we have taken the implementation of this ECU product as far or farther than anyone else on the market has for this category.
We are proud of our accomplishments using this ECU product in VW/Audi applications with 1.8t based motors well into the 6-800HP range (safe and usably), our own 5-cy 20v 720whp and counting, our 12V VR6 Time attack car making 648whp in time attack trim (not just a dyno queen), and thousands of users world wide who are successfully running and tuning their own cars and making great power, performance and driveability.
You won't find a better, more experienced or impassioned source to help you implement standalone and put tuning control in your own hands, guys like Lugnuts and others are also excellent choices and customers should make their own informed decisions by carefully speaking with each company and making determinations on real fact. 
To blindly listen to skewed, flat out wrong information on a forum w/o real research or follow up would be the real shame here. 
There are a lot of good vendors who have made big sacrifices to be able to offer real solutions to VW/Audi owners who want to take their tuning to the next level. 034EFI, for one, is here for people like that. 
We are about real tuning solutions, real power, reliably, if you are in the market for a standalone solution, we'd love to at least speak with you to determine how we can help meet your needs.










_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_While lugtronic may be based off of a VEMS product the plug in is manufactured inhouse and is the most direct setup for the applications listed. I make the backplates for the plug-ins on my mill and kevin does the wiring himself for the oem connectors, this is not a sticker swap application.

Are you going to make the "sticker swapping" accusation every year? 
We also do our own wiring for plug in harnesses, etc, here in house. Maybe our product would be more "original" if we tied up our mill making unique cases?








Nobody from 034 started slinging mud and attacking you, your company, your ECU, or your customer service. Why are you so hostile?
In all reality, Lugtronic is your product, you are 034EFI's competition, and it's pretty clear what your motivation is for posting. 
Don't get me wrong, we think Kevin is great, and he has done a lot for the VW/Audi community. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (DieGTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DieGTi* »_TheArchitect - you're asking questions and he's answering them and then you're giving him a hard time for answering, then asking him to move on while asking more questions. I'm not sure I follow the logic there...
If we're going to make this thread about product education and hear from the Forcefed guys on their product then let's share a bit about the 034 computers.
http://www.panteraefi.com/









This has been answered before in this thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3731896
And it's not like Lugtronic isn't VEMS, so please don't make uneducated assumptions.


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## [email protected] (Feb 3, 2009)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (TallaiMan)*

Never cursed you out, never asked for anything for free. The part could not be diagnosed over the phone, no one knew what pin was to what, no one could tell me how or where the map sensor even was on the board. Not trying to start a fight, just making my observations.
We took care of it for the customer, no one from 034 took care of it for us or the customer, we had to handle it, and we did.



_Modified by [email protected] at 7:32 PM 4-9-2009_


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (TheArchitect)*

I'll speak for the "real world" here, so the customers can see how it actually affect them.
I've been hearing about things like "degree based" and "timing lag" ever since the Electromotive days. 
If the ECU882 (034) and TEC2/TEC3/HPV-1 etc were that much better then anything else, and people blew up motors using other systems, then the "degree based" systems would dominate the market.
Someone please explain to me, how "timing lag" (supposed less timing than desired due to processing delays) blows up engines?
Tell me how supposed increased timing on a DE-celerating engine blows up engines? 
Who blows up an engine decelerating?


I always talk about this lightning quick processor. 
How about a 3D timing map to allow the user to run the timing he wants during any engine condition?
Let me guess, its coming on the next "firmware upgrade"? 

I don't agree about what was said about Autronic. And if it is true, it doesnt seem to affect the performance of the Autronic cars that I tune for customers. 
Ed's 812 whp 1.8t dyno is one of the smoothest that I have ever seen, even with the smoothing on "0" the graph is smoother than any I have seen.
The same goes for the C&M 12v VR6 GTI, I made 777 whp with a smooth curve, with the 100% OEM ignition system.
I am probably the only person on this forum who has straddled a dyno roller and measured the ignition timing of an engine in real time during a pull.
You don't see me talking about computer geek stuff, or selling the customers bulky, outdated, external coils and plug wires to clutter up their engine bays.
I know, use, and sell what works.
Again, I make more of my living tuning various stand-alone systems as opposed to ecu sales. So I am very un-biased.
As opposed to the vendors in the VAG community, many of them are in bed with 034 for so many of their other products that they will bite their lip amout the 034 ecu. And/or they are resellers that don't have the experience to make a determination for themselves.
Real world people.....


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA ([email protected])*

Again, thanks for the kind words Laszlo....
I don't want this to get ridiculous. I'm just informing people about my opinions. 
I don't even sell Autronic anymore. And I never thro rocks at my competator's products. I tune them all the time.
But when someone who doesn't know says the 034 is "better than anything out there" , obviously I am going to take issue with statements like that.
I am about facts, it's as simple as that.


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA ([email protected])*

Also if one were to go up and re-read every word I said, you will not find me "bashing" or "slinging mud" at anything at all.
In fact, the Architect claimed that the VEMS wideband does not work well and ruins sensors quickly.
- To which I replied with direct experience from dealing with multiple units.

Just the facts


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *DieGTi* »_ then let's share a bit about the 034 computers.

TheArchitect = 034 ECU creator. 

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
If people want to "go there" 034 is nothing more than a renamed ecu that simply has an 034 sticker on it rather than another one. I can do a quick web search if anyone has any disbelief of this statement and can prove it to be true.

Yet it was the same ECU you wanted to run back in 2006 before you and Kevin joined up.








Lets not make this personal Ed,stick to the facts.

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Ed on steves name. I would like to conter this by making a statement. Why did we have to call 034 several times to troubleshoot a map sensor upgrade that was done inhouse and get no answer, have no information given to us and just a shrug of shoulders as to why the problem had occured or any way to trouble shoot the issue at all.
I am not an 034 user, I have not purchased more than a few things from 034, *but in technical dealings about these ecus other than someone answering the phone everytime, there has been no help for more than basic question*s.

This is false.
You Javad Shadzi, Nate Stuart, Marc Swanson , myself and a whole FORUM of people that are available to answer your questions Ed.
check it out:
http://www.motorgeek.com and most if not all questions get answered in the same day.

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_no one from 034 took care of it for us or the customer, we had to handle it, and we did.

Was anyone @ 034 given the chance to?The fair answer to that would be NO.
Ed,I tried to help you out as best as I could but at the time the demands you wanted were a bit unreasonable.


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## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Never cursed you out, never asked for anything for free. The part could not be diagnosed over the phone, no one knew what pin was to what, no one could tell me how or where the map sensor even was on the board. Not trying to start a fact, just making my observations.

You never asked me what pin was on what. The only conversation was that Kevin was confident he could replace the MAP sensor if we sent one. After I gave him the options you called up and began your tirade. I have never sworn at, or hung up on, anyone while I have worked here. 
The MAP sensor was already on your board, so swapping one on would just be a pin-to-pin swap.... Not sure why you would have needed that information anyway.
I find it unlikely that nobody could give you information regarding the MAP sensor, considering that we swap them out all the time in house depending on what MAP sensor a customer needs.
For future ECUs you purchase from us, please call up and ask for Nate, or email Nate, as he is the most knowledgable about technical details.


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## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Again, thanks for the kind words Laszlo....
I don't want this to get ridiculous. I'm just informing people about my opinions. 
I don't even sell Autronic anymore. And I never thro rocks at my competator's products. I tune them all the time.
But when someone who doesn't know says the 034 is "better than anything out there" , obviously I am going to take issue with statements like that.
I am about facts, it's as simple as that.

Kevin, I know you're not bashing anything. I understand that you like tuning your Lugtronic/VEMS setup over 034EFI, and I respect that. You're a very knowledgeable person whose opinion is welcome.
I quoted Ed on my response for a reason. I remember you being polite and professional over the phone. You never swore at me, you never hung up the phone.
The point of this thread is that there are different options, and people need valid information to make informed decisions. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
You and I both know that we don't just "slap stickers" on ECUs as Ed claims. 
We both stand behind our products, we both offer support, and we are all VW/Audi enthusiasts who apply our knowledge the best we can to our passion.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (TallaiMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TallaiMan* »_
This has been answered before in this thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3731896
And it's not like Lugtronic isn't VEMS, so please don't make uneducated assumptions.









Thanks. I've read that in the past and appreciate you posting it up for others that need to educate themselves. I took that information into consideration when typing my brief response that you are quoting.


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## [email protected] (Feb 3, 2009)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (TallaiMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *INA* »_
TheArchitect = 034 ECU creator. 
Yet it was the same ECU you wanted to run back in 2006 before you and Kevin joined up.








Lets not make this personal Ed,stick to the facts.
This is false.
You Javad Shadzi, Nate Stuart, Marc Swanson , myself and a whole FORUM of people that are available to answer your questions Ed.
check it out:
http://www.motorgeek.com and most if not all questions get answered in the same day.

Was anyone @ 034 given the chance to?The fair answer to that would be NO.
Ed,I tried to help you out as best as I could but at the time the demands you wanted were a bit unreasonable.



You are INA, not 034, I wound up calling you when no one was helping me or giving me the information that I was looking for figuring since you an 034 are so close maybe you could help me to get the information needed.
They were given the chance, it was several hours inbetween our first contact to report the issue, then another hour after we took apart out dyno map sensor to figure out the pins and so I could let javad know the issue, what caused it and how they can correct it in the case to prevent it on further ecu as it was a space issue.
At that time I was uneducated on the ecus differences and after working side by side with kevin and his expertise I have learned as to why these differences are so important.

_Quote, originally posted by *TallaiMan* »_
You never asked me what pin was on what. The only conversation was that Kevin was confident he could replace the MAP sensor if we sent one. After I gave him the options you called up and began your tirade. I have never sworn at, or hung up on, anyone while I have worked here. 
The MAP sensor was already on your board, so swapping one on would just be a pin-to-pin swap.... Not sure why you would have needed that information anyway.
I find it unlikely that nobody could give you information regarding the MAP sensor, considering that we swap them out all the time in house depending on what MAP sensor a customer needs.
For future ECUs you purchase from us, please call up and ask for Nate, or email Nate, as he is the most knowledgable about technical details.









We needed the information to test to see if the map sensor itself was bad, at which point I was transferred to Javad. Kevin and I figured it out and I later informed Javad about what caused the issue, (the map sensor rubbing the case)
The information could not be given that we needed, like I said above we took apart our dyno map sensor, troubleshot the issue and corrected it.
Everyone was nice, but the information that Ive come to expect from dealing with kevin was not there.
No hard feelings and again not trying to start a fight, as you guys are getting defensive, so are we, but not to hide anything, just to keep information clear and direct.
In the future with our 034 customers we will do that and email Nate http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## TallaiMan (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_We took care of it for the customer, no one from 034 took care of it for us or the customer, we had to handle it, and we did.

We offered to take care of it. In fact, we gave you 2 options. You didn't "have" to handle it. What solution you decided to provide was up to you.
I applaud any company that takes care of its customers; we certainly do. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Feb 3, 2009)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (TallaiMan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TallaiMan* »_
We offered to take care of it. In fact, we gave you 2 options. You didn't "have" to handle it. What solution you decided to provide was up to you.
I applaud any company that takes care of its customers; we certainly do. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

Although 2 options were offered, none of which helped us, all we needed to know was what we found out by taking apart similar pieces, resoldering the board where the joints had failed and finished the car.


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_You are INA, not 034, I wound up calling you when no one was helping me or giving me the information that I was looking for figuring since you an 034 are so close maybe you could help me to get the information needed.

INA is just my initials








I want to make it clear for you (and everyone) that contacting me is just like contacting 034 Motorsport.I tried my best to help you out,I even remember talking to Joe,regardless that is the past and it was unfortunate the way things panned out but lets hope in the future that we wont have an issue like this again.


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## newt_ (Jan 24, 2005)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_I'll speak for the "real world" here, so the customers can see how it actually affect them.
I've been hearing about things like "degree based" and "timing lag" ever since the Electromotive days.
 No doubt, there is a very fundamental difference in accuracy between them, and it's a fact that is very often overlooked by both customers and tuners alike. 

_Quote »_If the ECU882 (034) and TEC2/TEC3/HPV-1 etc were that much better then anything else, and people blew up motors using other systems, then the "degree based" systems would dominate the market.
 They do dominate the market, in all high-end ECU's. Every single pro-race level ECU you can find will have proper degree-based timing, for instance. As does nearly every single OE ECU made these days.

_Quote »_Someone please explain to me, how "timing lag" (supposed less timing than desired due to processing delays) blows up engines?
 One super simple example: When tuning a motor to it's full potential on a limited octane your EGT's are already likely high, running less timing = higher EGT's. For no reason, other than the ECU is calculating the timing incorrectly/too slow.

_Quote »_Tell me how supposed increased timing on a DE-celerating engine blows up engines? 
No problem, an engines speed can be decelerated rapidly with full load still on the motor. Happens all the time when you engage a clutch on launch, a spinning tire gains traction, etc, etc, etc. This is a totally normal behavior of an engine, even in the real world.

_Quote »_Who blows up an engine decelerating?
An engine decelerating doesn't mean the car isn't rapidly accelerating.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (newt_)*


_Quote, originally posted by *newt_* »_ 
No problem, an engines speed can be decelerated rapidly with full load still on the motor. Happens all the time when you engage a clutch on launch, a spinning tire gains traction, etc, etc, etc. This is a totally normal behavior of an engine, even in the real world.
An engine decelerating doesn't mean the car isn't rapidly accelerating.


How long, exactly in milliseconds, do you think it takes for the ecu to adjust the timing? There would be cars *everywhere* popping engines if the time was too long. Heck, think of the carburetor engines with their archaic ignition advances... this is a moot point.


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (newt_)*

Some of these statements don't hold water though.
EGT is exhaust gas temperature. It is often measured near the exhaust ports of the engine. Not inside the engine.
Fact: 
*DEcreased ignition advance (less timing) *LOWERS* the peak cylinder pressures *and the cylinder temperatures.
*In this case, the EGT is *Higher* because the combustion happens at a later time, and the combustion is still burning while exiting the head into the exhaust and the EGT sensors.

EGT *can* lead to increased thermal load in the head, and *If and only if it overtaxes the cooling system can it possibly cause a problem.

Also, you make a good point about the increasing load an engine sees during clutch slippage during a launch. 
A great example I can think of also would be a top fuel dragster. 
At about the 1/8th mile these engine see full load and the clutch application drags the engine RPM down from ~8000 to ~6700.
These engine use an MSD 4 magnet trigger wheel to determine engine ignition timing. Hardly degree based I would think.

Someone please do the calculations based on a real works VW acceleration rate, comparing say a 3 tooth trigger vs a 60 tooth trigger on a VR6 engine. and calculate the possible ignition error and lets get out into the open what it really is. 
I'd bet the farm that it is smaller than the error built into peoples self-tunes and also the capabilities of some ecu's non 3D timing maps.


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## TheArchitect (May 4, 2006)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Again, I make more of my living tuning various stand-alone systems as opposed to ecu sales. So I am very un-biased.


Is this supposed to be a joke?
Then why such a push here for lugtronics, and not something like PI or EFI Tech or Motec? I mean you could still make money tuning it right?
You keep speaking for the real world, I'll design stuff that works correctly, rather than what looks good enough to the "real world".
My advice for you Kevin is to buy a good storage scope.
Ray Hall will tell you how to use it.


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (Rocco R16V)*

i guess my question got drowned out by the bickering

_Quote, originally posted by *Rocco R16V* »_Can Lugtronic's WB be set up so what the ECU sees as stoic is actually your target A/F ratio?
With 034 and LC1 I can, this makes reading the logs super easy, and logging is essential to a good tune.


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## FINA1 (Apr 9, 2009)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (Rocco R16V)*

end user ease- i go w/ c2 chip.
if i wanted to go w/ a standalone system, i would go w/ lugtronic. it offers all the features i need, utilizes the stock wiring harness.( HUGE bonus there http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ) 
standalone ( or chip tuning for that matter) is only as good as the person entering the values, and if you arent tuning savvy, like myself-you need to consider who is going to do your tune? a buddy or someone w/ the proper knowledge and experience?
i have seen people who dont know what they are doing, spend countless hours on the dyno trying to tune...to make less than a lowly chip tune.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (TheArchitect)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TheArchitect* »_
Is this supposed to be a joke?
Then why such a push here for lugtronics, and not something like PI or EFI Tech or Motec? I mean you could still make money tuning it right?


Because it's not about money, it's about what works. Simple as that.


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (DieGTi)*


_Quote, originally posted by *DieGTi* »_
Because it's not about money, it's about what works. Simple as that.

They both work.
Lets move onto the OP's questions.
The Stage Ic unit from 034 would be the unit of choice for the ABA.


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## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (INA)*

I have the c2 42lbs in my aba turbo and it works well. I also have snow performance water-meth with the mass air flow controller on the engine. I wish I could add more timing advance but I think it's fine for a play car at this altitude.


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## woodrowstar (Jun 17, 2005)

Hi, I'm not popular here, due to my lack of advertising, but i too- offer a tune. It's based off of DIGI 1. really simple to use, just go to Radio Shack and pick up a few treats and BAM!!!! everything runs sweet.i stand behind my product 101%... ye, 101%- who can match that? neither of these guys, thats who. 
do not look for me, i'll find you- i'll find you...in the streets. 

PS.
I stunt for Jesus


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## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (INA)*


_Quote, originally posted by *INA* »_
They both work.
Lets move onto the OP's questions.
The Stage Ic unit from 034 would be the unit of choice for the ABA.

I've been using it for ~5yrs or so on my ABA, its a very nice product. I've also used it on a 1.8T, pretty simple to use. Of course I have not used any other standalone units, I've only have been tuning with 034 and OEM evo ECU's.


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## INA (Nov 16, 2005)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (GTijoejoe)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GTijoejoe* »_
I've been using it for ~5yrs or so on my ABA, its a very nice product. I've also used it on a 1.8T, pretty simple to use. Of course I have not used any other standalone units, I've only have been tuning with 034 and OEM evo ECU's.

Joe, you and Andre were one of the first systems I sold...


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (TheArchitect)*

<<<Is this supposed to be a joke?>>>
- Nope, I take what i do for a living pretty seriously. Especially when people try to "outmarket" quality products with aggressive marketing. 

<<<Then why such a push here for lugtronics, and not something like PI or EFI Tech or Motec? I mean you could still make money tuning it right?>>>
- I tune many other systems. I sell Vi-PEC and I support my Autronic customers daily. 
<<<You keep speaking for the real world, I'll design stuff that works correctly, rather than what looks good enough to the "real world".>>>
- If you call an 812 whp 1.8t on gas that drives well on 160# injectors "good", then I'm happy with "good"
<<<My advice for you Kevin is to buy a good storage scope.
Ray Hall will tell you how to use it.>>>
- OK, well I actually own a two channel and a 12 channel scope. 
- Also, I learned much of what I know before and after Ray Hall. 
I'm not an "re-seller lackey" like many of the other former Autronic dealers, and other brands as well.
- I proved to him several things like that stock 1.8t coils will support 200+ whp per cylinder.
- I feel that if you listen to only one person, you will only be as experienced as that person. I do things for myself as well and have gotten pretty far doing so.


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## woodrowstar (Jun 17, 2005)

so, how will these help my carbed mk1?


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (Rocco R16V)*

<<<Can Lugtronic's WB be set up so what the ECU sees as stoic is actually your target A/F ratio?
With 034 and LC1 I can, this makes reading the logs super easy, and logging is essential to a good tune.>>>
- The VEMS/Lugtronic has a dedicated Target Lambda Table.
- This table serves four functions:
1) Easy set-up and changing of the engines actual air-fuel ratio
2) Allows a "more flat" Fuel VE Table (because the target lambda table's values are part of the calculations in the background to get the injector pulse. 
3) Displays the target lambda or air-fuel on the datalogs to get an idea of where your actual air-fuel is in relation.
4) Is the target for the Closed Loop Correction.
- I agree with your views on logging. Thge Lugtronic has excellent datalolgging. 
- If you havent used anything other than 034 then you have not seen "greener grass" yet. Not a jab, just a fact. sorry.


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## Rocco R16V (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_<<<Can Lugtronic's WB be set up so what the ECU sees as stoic is actually your target A/F ratio?
With 034 and LC1 I can, this makes reading the logs super easy, and logging is essential to a good tune.>>>
- The VEMS/Lugtronic has a dedicated Target Lambda Table.
- This table serves four functions:
1) Easy set-up and changing of the engines actual air-fuel ratio
2) Allows a "more flat" Fuel VE Table (because the target lambda table's values are part of the calculations in the background to get the injector pulse. 
3) Displays the target lambda or air-fuel on the datalogs to get an idea of where your actual air-fuel is in relation.
4) Is the target for the Closed Loop Correction.
- I agree with your views on logging. Thge Lugtronic has excellent datalolgging. 
- If you havent used anything other than 034 then you have not seen "greener grass" yet. Not a jab, just a fact. sorry.


034 has a similar feature i just found it easier to get the primary tune using my method, having your target lamda on the logs would be cool.
I used 034, MS and EMS. and they were not greener.
I look forward to seeing your system. the thing i'm most interested in is the autotune feature, although i'm not sure I would trust it. ? 
cant afford to buy a new system just to play though.
Thanks, keep up the good work http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## haenszel (Mar 14, 2004)

*FV-QR*

This has no biased towards anyone....... although kevin does tune my car, I have never used, nor seen any lugtronic ECU in person.
Having experience with MS 2.2, 3.0, Autronic sm4, Autronic SMC, Tec3, Tec2, 034, and DTA....... I would suggest Autronic over any other ECU out there. The usability/logging/capabilities are FAR exceeded with autronic over any of these other ECU's. it takes some time to get used to the "hot keys", but spend 2 hrs with kevin and he'll show you the software in and out, for sure.


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (97_trek)*


_Quote, originally posted by *97_trek* »_i figure c2 is the easiest path but was wondering what other method would work?

Ok without any BS...
And Yes....I own one..an ABA t.....
It depends on where you want to go with your project....what is your WHP Goal?? and how much do you want to Spend?
are you looking to make more than 300 whp?
How deep are your pockets?

300 whp can be done with a C2 chip tune....a tad more but that is the end...
Forget any other chip tunes....and please no one say DIGI 1
and after a few years you may tire of this Power Level....
Then it's time for Stand alone.....
but then there is the Emission question....this can be a problem depending on where you live...

Going stand alone will give you the ability to take your engine to it's limit and beyond if it's not up to the task at hand....or you tuned it your self and are not familiar with the ins and outs of tuning fuel and spark curves for fuel used and boost levels
A properly tuned stand alone Will be able to fully utilize your setup...and change and grow to whatever you dream up or build......
There are only 3 SEM systems i would use on my personal car....
Lugtronic...it plugs into the factory harness...But then I would have to wire it for a wasted spark coil...as distributors are for the birds.....more place for the spark to get lost.....and vw coils and VR6 coil packs love to crack and run kooky when its damp....after aging a few years....so there goes plug and play for me.....Great product...and local to the east coast....a plus for the east coasters....
034efi stage 1C....Not plug and play...some more wiring involved....so bust out the Bentley and get to work...great features and comes with the wasted spark coil...a win for me....plus I picked it up used for less than half price
just got around to wiring it up...uploaded the ABA base map and it fired right up....first try....now to verify base timing and dial in the 85# injectors








Price wise the first 2 are about = the way i would run it..
Then there is Megasquirt.....This is the lowest price wise if you like to build it yourself...or get a prebuilt one...the saving is not that much after you configure it for wasted spark and purchase all the parts....and the connector is my least favorite part of it.......but it works well and be configured to do most anything...with in reason.........
That's my 2 cents.......
Dave


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## turbodub (Jul 6, 2000)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA ([email protected])*

wow, this thread is a mess


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## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *Salsa GTI* »_

034efi stage 1C....Not plug and play...some more wiring involved....so bust out the Bentley and get to work...great features and comes with the wasted spark coil...a win for me....plus I picked it up used for less than half price
just got around to wiring it up...uploaded the ABA base map and it fired right up....first try....now to verify base timing and dial in the 85# injectors










You finally stepped up to standalone. I thought C2 was the way to go... what happened?


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## [email protected] (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (Salsa GTI)*

Just a few experiences. I have been very happy with the performance of OEM VW ignition components in many different projects now.
In the old days on Purple-Pills car we had an ABA 8v that made 378 whp turbo and 466 whp with nitrous - all thru an ABA distributor and coil.(This was with an Autronic CDI). 
The mechanicals of the distributor do not control the spark timing, that is done with the ECU. A properly set-up distributor setup will support a lot of power. Just sharing.
Also, I have 2 VR6T cars running with 600+ and 700+ whp , both on stock vr6 coilpacks. When you compare apples to apples (new OEM coil to new aftermarket coil) - the OEM parts deliver the power every bit as well. And you save money, don't have to mount them, or make new plug wires.
Same with the 1.8t. 800+ whp on stock COP coils. No reason anymore to convert the coils to something else.

About the Lugtronic, I will supply whatever the customers ask for.
I have an option for high power ignition right on the website. This is a connector ran outside of the case that would be used for your coilpack conversion.
For the DIY, the regular stand alone version of the ecu is very affordable.
Finally, I make full harnesses for engines and engine swaps. 
If you have any questions, just ask.


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## nater (Apr 10, 2000)

*Re: Best Fuel Management for 2.0T ABA (turbodub)*


_Quote, originally posted by *turbodub* »_wow, this thread is a mess

Good point. 

http://****************.com/default/zero2/lock5.gif


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