# immo defeat question



## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

hey guys, i just got my ecu back with the immo defeated, but it seems that the immo is still active in my cluster and says it is, and wont allow the car to run


i was under the impression the purpose of the immo defeat is so you can swap clusters/ecu car to car with out that issue...


does anyone know of something i might be missing here? maybe a way to "reset" the system so i can actually start my car

any info would be amazing

Thanks


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## Uwe (Jan 16, 2000)

If the Immo light in the cluster is on because the keys aren't matched to the cluster (which contains the Immo itself) an "Immo Defeat" program in the ECU won't turn that light off. It should however allow the car to start despite the immo's unhappiness. 

-Uwe-


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## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

nope light stays there, and the car wont run, it starts, then just dies....


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## jetta 971 (Jul 25, 2009)

kneedraggin101 said:


> nope light stays there, and the car wont run, it starts, then just dies....


 Then immo defeated was not done properly. 
And like Uwe said your immo light will flash on cluster till you adopt keys . Immo defeated in ECU it will not turn off that light.


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## vwemporium (May 27, 2002)

Well I can tell you a properly immo defeated ecu will make the immo key light in the cluster shut off as if the ecu is married because it well send the packet on the internal CAN to do so.

If a key is not married or a an ecu you will get a key light for the immo.

It is not done properly because if it was done right it would run even with the light flashing or with a key married or without.

I can help you properly fix if your interested.

let me know.

Jack


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## jetta 971 (Jul 25, 2009)

vwemporium said:


> Well I can tell you a properly immo defeated ecu will make the immo key light in the cluster shut off as if the ecu is married because it well send the packet on the internal CAN to do so.
> Jack


 Not true , If the key is not adopt to cluster , you can do anything in ECU with immo defeated the light still will flash in instrument cluster.
Immo defeated in ECU will only allow car to start but if you don't have keys adopted to cluster the immo light will not stop flashing.
Adopting key to immobilizer has nothing to do with CAN Bus.
Adopting ECU to cluster or cluster to ECU is CAN Bus relation.


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## vwemporium (May 27, 2002)

I said if the ecu is properly defeated it will shut the light out.

I never said that if the key wasn't married it would shut the light out.
If the key is not married or the cluster eeprom isn't modified to believe a key is married the light will go on for both reasons. However the car will run.
Defeat can be done more then one way Jetta 97.

I'm saying that the light comes on for 2 reasons 

Immo not married to ecu via can bus packet return. 
( This turns the light out if a key is married after control unit confirms allowed )
Key not recognized at coil.

You are incorrect. It does use the can data bus to verify an immobilizer.
This is why the car will run and die if it doesn't get the packet requested.

It is also that an additional prerequisite is required, before an authorization of a packet over the can bus can commence, even to marry a car via 050. I'm not saying what either. 

Why are you always so augmentative when your wrong? 
So how do you suppose the data is transmitted then, the easter bunny brings maybe?

What I can tell you is when i defeat the immo the lights go on and then go out as they are supposed to after started. The packet is sent back to shut it off.
Jack


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## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

Ok my question is why can I not program via the eeprom to accept my skc to shut that light off?

Also does anyone know how I can reset the firmware to as new, so everything can be added?

Also my asr light no longer lights up with the use of the button, and my old cluster says 260kph and my new one says 300 and during my road test, my actual speed and cluster speed was off, how do I correct that


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## vwemporium (May 27, 2002)

How to manipulate a security device is not to be discussed in the forum.

This is not a valid question that can be performed via VCDS forum.

Discussion on how a system works as demonstrated in the repair manual or ssp is what I will discuss.

How it works is one thing. How specifically to disable is another.
Resets like you asked can not be done in VCDS.

SKC, if had can be entered and there is documented procedures to perform at Ross-Tech for VCDS.

Jack


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## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

well i have the skc for both my clusters, and my point to asking here, is even tho i have BOTH of them, i can NOT get them to work in the new cluster...

Also i asked how can speed be corrected, and can it be done, eith vag-com or not


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## vwemporium (May 27, 2002)

Some speed corrections can be done if supported but where are your auto-scans?
Are you working with new parts or used?

Im no mind reader

No ticky No washy buddy.


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## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

i will post the scan of my car if thats what you asking for.....

and im working with a used cluster


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## vwemporium (May 27, 2002)

yup 
and make it two scans one with each cluster in if you can to check config


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## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

don thave the old cluster available till next week, gave it to a friend to add mfi/mfa to his car....

also the scans of my car, ie a vcds scan or ?


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## vwemporium (May 27, 2002)

Only VCDS genuine auto-scans are used here.


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## jetta 971 (Jul 25, 2009)

vwemporium said:


> You are incorrect. It does use the can data bus to verify an immobilizer.
> This is why the car will run and die if it doesn't get the packet requested.


No I am not , read again what I said:
Adopting key to immobilizer has nothing to do with CAN Bus.
Adopting ECU to cluster or cluster to ECU is CAN Bus relation.



vwemporium said:


> Why are you always so augmentative when your wrong?


I am not so augmentative , I am just telling you you are not always right.
You think that you know everything about this , and I corrected you so many times.
Click on my signature "MFA Cluter" and see what I did with CAN Bus cluster in NONE CAN Bus car, then tell me I HAVE NO idea about those things.
Cluster is Immo3 and ECU is none Immo and I did adopt key to my car.
So tell me how is possible to adopt key this way if you are saying it is CAN Bus relation?
Your problem is ,you think that you are smarter then everybody, and nobody knows better then you.


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## jetta 971 (Jul 25, 2009)

kneedraggin101 said:


> Ok my question is why can I not program via the eeprom to accept my skc to shut that light off?
> 
> Also does anyone know how I can reset the firmware to as new, so everything can be added?
> 
> Also my asr light no longer lights up with the use of the button, and my old cluster says 260kph and my new one says 300 and during my road test, my actual speed and cluster speed was off, how do I correct that


 OK, can you tell as what year ,model is your car?That way we can know what generation on immobilizer you have.
What did you do on car , replace cluster ,ECU ?


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## vwemporium (May 27, 2002)

On the W internal Can it sends the packet. To and from.

Why dont you read the ssp and correct yourself.

You are incorrect again Jetta 97

Yes Keys turn off the immo light but so does the return packet from ecu to cluster.

Both must be married or return data required to turn the light out.

Why do you argue with the repair manual?

Jack


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## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

jetta said:


> OK, can you tell as what year ,model is your car?That way we can know what generation on immobilizer you have.
> What did you do on car , replace cluster ,ECU ?


car is a 00 so immo 2, i replaced the cluster, with an immo 3 cluster, also picked up an immo 3 key fob today, and so far i still cant program that into the car either


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## jetta 971 (Jul 25, 2009)

kneedraggin101 said:


> car is a 00 so immo 2, i replaced the cluster, with an immo 3 cluster, also picked up an immo 3 key fob today, and so far i still cant program that into the car either


 You don't need immo 3 key.Keep your original keys.
All you need use immo2 procedure for cluster swap.
Can you read/write eeprom of both clusters?


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## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

lol well i have it now, might as well use it lol, just need to know how to program it to open my doors and such, as i swapped the key part already....

but yes i can write the eeprom on the new cluster, and i could get the eeprom off the old cluster as well if needed....

do you think this will correct my speedo being off as well as turning back on my asr light, and removing the immo activated light and display msg?


im all ears via pm on how i can get this done

Thanks


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## vwemporium (May 27, 2002)

I think this thread should be locked if no auto-scans are posted.


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## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

And why is that? Cause I'm not at the comp with my scans saved on it? Calm ur self, I've told you the problems, what diff will my scans make


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## Dana @ Ross-Tech (Sep 15, 2009)

kneedraggin101 said:


> And why is that? Cause I'm not at the comp with my scans saved on it? Calm ur self, I've told you the problems, what diff will my scans make


Jetta ,97 and Jack go at it like this on a regular basis. They are both highly skilled technicians but it seems as if they like to debate about some things. Lucky for you ... you get both sides/opinions and in the end each of them are here to help ... or they wouldn't post in their spare time.

--

You must post a scan using VCDS because those are the rules:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-COM-forum&p=11575801&viewfull=1#post11575801

Ross-Tech sponsors this forum ... so we're allowed to ask users to use/support our product ;-) 

--

Since this is not a normal repair, please post the Year, make, model, transmission and engine code that's installed in the vehicle and any relevant information from the car(s) the parts came from.


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## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

2000 jetta gls vrt, 5 speed, cluster im using came from a 2002 w8



VCDS Version: Release 10.6.3 (x64)
Data version: 20101206

Friday,04,February,2011,16:55:21:38117

Chassis Type: 1J - VW Golf/Bora IV
Scan: 01 02 03 08 15 16 17 19 22 29 35 36 37 39 46 47 55 56 57 75
76

VIN: WVWUKxxxxxxx45614 Mileage: 8587km/5331miles
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: None
Part No: 021 906 018 Z
Component: C2.12v.630.08 G V04 
Coding: 00031
Shop #: WSC 78134 
VCID: 254A220F9567


No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 1J0-907-37x-ABS.lbl
Part No: 1J0 907 379 R
Component: ASR 20 IE CAN 0001 
Coding: 13204
Shop #: WSC 00066 
VCID: 4084939B6A05

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 6Q0-909-605-VW5.lbl
Part No: 6Q0 909 605 A
Component: 09 AIRBAG VW5 0003 
Coding: 12345
Shop #: WSC 00066 
VCID: 356AF24F25C7

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 3B0-920-xx5-17.lbl
Part No: 3B7 920 846 E
Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRSP VDO V09 
Coding: 23336
Shop #: WSC 00000 
VCID: 2E58DD23C091
WVWUK63B63P045614 VWZ7Z0A4604980

5 Faults Found:
00779 - Outside Air Temp Sensor (G17) 
30-00 - Open or Short to Plus
01176 - Key 
65-10 - Unauthorized - Intermittent
01177 - Engine Control Unit 
65-10 - Unauthorized - Intermittent
01177 - Engine Control Unit 
64-10 - Not Currently Testable - Intermittent
01314 - Engine Control Module 
49-10 - No Communications - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
Part No: 6N0 909 901 
Component: Gateway KCAN 0001 
Coding: 00006
Shop #: WSC 00028 
VCID: F0E4835B9A25

1 Fault Found:
01314 - Engine Control Module 
49-10 - No Communications - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 1J0-959-799.lbl
Part No: 1J0 959 799 AJ
Component: 61 Zentral-SG Komf. 0001 
Coding: 04096
Shop #: WSC 00066 
VCID: 8608C58388A1

Part No: 1J1959801C
Component: 61 Tõrsteuerger. FS0002r 

Part No: 1J1959802D
Component: 61 Tõrsteuerger. BF0002B 

Part No: 1J4959811C
Component: 61 Tõrsteuerger. HL0002r 

Part No: 1J4959812C
Component: 61 Tõrsteuerger. HR0002r 


No fault code found.

End ---------------------------------------------------------------------


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## Uwe (Jan 16, 2000)

> 2000 jetta gls vrt, 5 speed, cluster im using came from a 2002 w8












-Uwe-


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## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

Yup maybe, but fis>mfa so


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## jetta 971 (Jul 25, 2009)

Check your cluster coding , it should be speed adjustment.
Like on Jetta/Golf last number of coding is speed adjustment.It should say _Distance Impulse Number_
The best way to check is it speed correct, go to address 01 engine and find speed in measuring block groups and see is it same as cluster shoving. It will show in KM , but you have Km in cluster as well.
Do this with someone sitting on pass/ side and looking at laptop to avoid any accidents.


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## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

well to see that it was off, we used a gps and my friends car, side by side and mine was off, and off quite a bit...


so can u explain in detail how to adjust the speed there? you kinda lost me


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## jetta 971 (Jul 25, 2009)

When you cilck on coding , then click on numbers and pop up window should come like this :

* 00??x0x: Options
o +01 = Brake Pad Warning
o +02 = Seatbelt Warning
o +04 = Washer Fluid Warning
o +16 = Sedan (only VW Jetta) 
* 00xx?0x: Country
o 1 = Europe (EU)
o 2 = USA (US)
o 3 = Canada (CDN)
o 4 = Great Britain (GB)
o 5 = Japan (JP)
o 6 = Saudi Arabia (SA)
o 7 = Australia (AUS) 
* 00xxx0?: Distance Impulse Number
o 1 = 22188
o 2 = 22076
o 3 = 21960
o 4 = 21848
o 5 = 22304
o 6 = 22420
o 7 = 22532 

This is not from your car.
So if you look Distance Impulse Number you can see 7 different options. 
Change number and see what will happened. On my Jetta lower number will lower speed ( if I drive 50 miles , it will show 45).


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## vwemporium (May 27, 2002)

Now that was a qualified response jetta97 

Agreed.


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## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

and for the coding from this, i will be checking in the engine part of the vcds obv, and since my speedo reads low, i guess i need to raise this....


the only reason i noticed it being off, is the cluster says 300kph and my stock cluster said 260kph, so it seems the scaling is totally off...

now what your telling me to do, should fix this scaling issue then?


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## vwemporium (May 27, 2002)

I believe jetta 97 is correct


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## jetta 971 (Jul 25, 2009)

vwemporium said:


> Now that was a qualified response jetta97
> 
> Agreed.


 Thanks.
That was very nice from you.


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## jetta 971 (Jul 25, 2009)

kneedraggin101 said:


> and for the coding from this, i will be checking in the engine part of the vcds obv, and since my speedo reads low, i guess i need to raise this....
> 
> 
> the only reason i noticed it being off, is the cluster says 300kph and my stock cluster said 260kph, so it seems the scaling is totally off...
> ...


 Yes it should. It has nothing to do with 260/300km.
The passat W8 I believe runs 16 or 17 tires and your car is 15 inches.
This is probably is your problem.


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## vwemporium (May 27, 2002)

Hey man its not over go to the airbag post.

it looks like we are everyones entertainment. 


Make sure you look into the W Can for the packet for the immo.


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## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

explain pls... i dont know to much about this vcds, this is my first dub i built ground up, so im still learning


and my jetta came with 16's to start with, and i believe the passat it came off, was the same, but i could be wrong, i will confirm


but mine was 205/55/16 oem size


just found out the passat would be either 215/55/16 or 225/45/17, which would have something to do with it, your completely right


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## vwemporium (May 27, 2002)

JA


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## jetta 971 (Jul 25, 2009)

vwemporium said:


> JA


Naturlich


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## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

Nun, wenn das alles funktioniert werde ich sehr glücklich, wie dieses Piepen macht mich verrückt


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## jetta 971 (Jul 25, 2009)

Dann werden wir ein Bier trinken:thumbup:


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## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

Bier ist immer eine gute Sache nach Aussortieren ein Problem mit einem Auto haben


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## jetta 971 (Jul 25, 2009)

Agree.


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## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

ok how do i go about getting my login then, cause i have my skc and it wont let me log in to change anything, also i have my key "card" but the digits that are on there, wont let me change anything either

suggestions?


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## vwemporium (May 27, 2002)

How to get a login unless needed to perform a change is usually included in a popup balloon if required.

Why are you looking for a login?

To change what?

Jack

Thank you for posting the scan by the way.


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## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

im looking for a log in, so i can re program my keys to my new cluster, also so i can change the speedo being off, as it wont let me till im logged in....


also to do w/e other programming is required with this cluster swap...


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## Uwe (Jan 16, 2000)

If the Immo-Defeat in the ECU was done properly, the car should start and run no matter what cluster is installed, or whether the keys are matched to the immo in the cluster. Hence I don't think your Immo-Defeat was done properly.

Next we run into the problem that you're trying to match an Immo-3 cluster to an Immo-2 ECU and keys. I've heard some people have been able to make this work, but I've never actually seen it done and hence I don't have a procedure for it. My guess is that the cluster must be "virginized" for this to work, but matching the cluster to the ECU would be irrelevant if you have an Immo-Defeat in the ECU. 

Immo-3 keys can only be matched to an Immo once, then they get a lock-bit set, and cannot be matched to another. So if your fob is used, it isn't going to match to that cluster, at least not by conventional means.

-Uwe-


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## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

the car does start, and does run, just the immobilizer activated stays across my fis and the stupid light flashes in the speedo....


as for matching immo 3 cluster to immo 2, its been done tons of times and works normally with out a hitch, just you cant go from 3 cluster to a 2 cluster... only 2 to a 3...

Also i have been looking for an eeprom file from a virgin cluster to start this off as new, so i can log in as it was fresh and it will take all the settings from my car, but so far, no luck

Also i was told if you have an immo 3 key, you can re match it to w/e and there is no limit on times you can do this.. 

so any extra help on this would be great, the main thing would be to log into my car, so i can start by adapting the speedo and such, and then get the immo light to turn off, and everything else thats needed


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## jetta 971 (Jul 25, 2009)

kneedraggin101 said:


> ok how do i go about getting my login then, cause i have my skc and it wont let me log in to change anything, also i have my key "card" but the digits that are on there, wont let me change anything either
> 
> suggestions?


You need to use SKC from W8 cluster.
You go to address 17 
login-11 and put 0+SKC( 4 digit), do it.
Then you go to adaptation channel 21 then read , put 0 in new value, test , save ,
then read again then put number of how many keys you have , test , save 
go back and close controller,
then 
Switch ignition off and remove key
Insert next key to ignition and switch ignition on again
The warning light for the Immobilizer will light up for ~2 seconds, then go out
Switch ignition off and remove key
Repeat it with each key until all keys have been matched.

You need to use your ORIGINAL keys form your car, not IMMO 3 key fob.

If you can't change coding of cluster in Distance Impulse then cluster software does not support it.
You will need to have tool to change K-value to adjust speed.


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## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

i have tried it with my original keys, and following those steps, everytime i try and set the value to 0 and test, it says error, and i cant get past that point

suggestions?


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## jetta 971 (Jul 25, 2009)

What you reading on MB 22,23 ,24?


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## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

22 = 0 0 1 3

23 = 0 1 0 6

24 = 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0


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## jetta 971 (Jul 25, 2009)

Your cluster does not talk with ECU , probably is because is passat cluster.it won't be able to match keys normal way.
This has to be done manually in eeprom dump.


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## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

totally open to hearing how to do it.....

i do have a copy of my eeprom saved, and i do have a copy of my original clusters eeprom

so if there is something you can do with these, by all means, im at your mercy to get it to work


if you can help out, pm me your email and ill send you a copy of them, and see what you can do with them for me

Thanks


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## vwemporium (May 27, 2002)

You could try this so you can do it instead of discussing modified eeproms here.


Add the W8 passat ecu to the W internal CAN and K line hidden under the dash and it should send the data back required to shut the light out after married.

Try what i said in regards to seeing if the immo defeat is done different to get this packet like i described before with immo 3 keys married additional or deleted.

If you sent me the cluster keys and ecu you are using im pretty confident I could get to work the way you want.

Jack


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## zeroboy (Sep 3, 2005)

I see. You're trying to install a FIS W8 cluster in your Mk4. I have a virgin (mode4) W8 eeprom somewhere I think. 
Also, you do know that the W8 cluster gets the CTS signal via CAN? and not from the sensor itself. 1) It's possible your fuel guage will not work
2) your coolant temp gauge will NOT work at all (unless you know the work-around)


Jack knows what he's saying. marrying the keys should NOT be as hard as you're making it with proper SKC's from both clusters, there's something missing.
I've done what you're trying to do, there are details you're missing though.
You need to solder two very *VERY* tiny resistors and a capacitor onto the W8 board to make it work. And even then, the few people who have made the W8 cluster work in Immo2 needed mode4 to get it working.
Either way, I can see this ....getting ...off topic? Since the Immo3 procedures are well documented.

And Uwe: regarding the Immo3 RFID chip/key re-matching, are you sure it's true that you can use them only once? Because I've rematched keys in many Immo3 cars (04'+ passat, 03'+ Audi A4, etc..) to different clusters and have not had to buy new fobs. I've heard that before and had an Audi dealer tell me that also, but...? seems like it's not consistant?


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## kneedraggin101 (Jan 28, 2009)

pm sent


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## Uwe (Jan 16, 2000)

zeroboy said:


> Uwe: regarding the Immo3 RFID chip/key re-matching, are you sure it's true that you can use them only once? Because I've rematched keys in many Immo3 cars (04'+ passat, 03'+ Audi A4, etc..) to different clusters and have not had to buy new fobs. I've heard that before and had an Audi dealer tell me that also, but...? seems like it's not consistant?


Yes, Immo-3 keys have a lock-bit which gets set the first time you match them to an Immo. However, if you replace the cluster in an Immo-3 car, and you match the cluster to the ECU in the car first, then you should be able to match the existing keys to the replacement cluster because the replacement cluster has taken on that car's immo identity, which is locked in the key. 

That's clearly not applicable if someone buys a used Immo-3 key. In that case, the key is locked to some other immo identity, which cannot readily be reproduced in this car.

-Uwe-


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## zeroboy (Sep 3, 2005)

--Ah HA! I knew it was true somehow. It was never explained in detail- and i don't think many of the dealers understand the relationship either. They insisted that the keys be replaced with the cluster, which I knew to be false.

-- - end of thread hijack!


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## vwemporium (May 27, 2002)

Actually this is a cool thing you brought up.

It is also possible to marry early keys which don't have the lock bit also. Uwe is 100% correct about the 050 swap containing the key data stored in the ecu, which is why you can reuse those keys through conventional means of VCDS in immo 3.
Some early keys can be used over and over and used to marry to another cluster at will through normal VCDS login procedure as long as you have the SKC in immo 3.

This is why i came up with a way to offer my customers data transfer services so they dont have to buy keys again. With a used or new cluster or ecu etc.

Buy 3 keys because you need a cluster is such a poor way to make money by design, not very fair.

Jack


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## Dana @ Ross-Tech (Sep 15, 2009)

Correct, and I attempted to (simply) summarize that in the notes here: http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/VW_Golf/Jetta/Bora_(1J/9M)_Immobilizer#Special_Notes

That page is less than a week old and we hope to take this format and apply it to all platforms in the Wiki. Toughs, corrections, and *constructive* criticism are welcome ;-)


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