# Transmission fluid change/flush recommendations



## Fratrick (Jan 23, 2009)

I had my car in at a very reputable german shop and when I mentioned I wanted to have my atf changed (car has 125k on it) they told me that I should leave it in. He described it as "ungluing" the materials holding it together and there would be a slight chance that it would crap out. What are your thoughts? He said it was a roughly 10 percent chance. If that is the case then I'm not even going to bother


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

It sounds to me that we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. 

If we don't change the ATF there's likely a 90% chance something in the gearbox will wear out by 200,000 miles, and according to your tech if we do there's a 10% chance it will degrade in the next 20,000... 

But on the first scenario, there's probably a 5% chance of failure in any one year in any case, so it would be hard to prove him wrong. 

As a personal guess, I think the bathtub curve on the gearbox is at the flat 'reliable' part at about the 75k miles mark and if the ATF is changed successfully at 60k, 120k etc then the 'upstroke' shouldn't start to happen before 150k. but there are statistics and then there are 'damned lies', as they say! 

Our revered ZF engineer in Dortmund is adamant that the ATF fluid should be changed every 60k for a V8 and TDI, and VW mandate every 20k for the W12. 

Chris


----------



## snapdragon (Aug 8, 2006)

I think even if it dissolves the grey sludge that tends to form on all the metal surfaces, that's what the filter is for. 

I also think a lot of people wait until they perceive (maybe subconsciously) that their transmission has been acting differently to usual, so get a fluid change and then shortly after it gets worse or fails and they go back and say "Since you did my fluid it doesn't work properly" and so the garage thinks they won't bother next time. in truth it was failing anyway, and the fact they had new fluid during this time is not of consequence.


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

In my opinion, there's ample evidence in the various threads on the subject that transmission problems after a fluid change are usually caused by the dealer not following the correct procedure. The two vital things that are often missed are only doing a single fluid change, and not updating the software based on the coding of the new fluid.


----------



## boreal (Aug 18, 2005)

I recently have had my transmission replaced with a rebuilt 6 speed unit from VW.. The software has been updated to the latest level of 1905. I am wondering if the unit that was installed has the proper oil in it. Who knows when that unit had been rebuilt. Is g 060 162 a2 the correct fluid for that software level? I still have a shudder that is driving me crazy.


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Here's Tomasty's comprehensive post about fluid and software levels. 
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...sion-shudder&p=77532937&posted=1#post77532937 

Looks as if that's the new fluid that goes with 1905, assuming that's what they filled it with.


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

For what it's worth, these are the 1 litre pack ATF fluids listed by VW: 

5-speed Gearbox (W12 - 5HP24A) 
====================== 
FGE/GXX/GDE/GML . . . . . . . . G 052 162 A2 

6-speed Gearbox (V10 - 6HP32A) 
===================== 
GVH/GRN/HDQ/HPS . . . . . . . . G 055 005 A2 

6-speed Gearbox (V6 - 6HP19A or 6HP19/2WD) 
=============================== 
GUV/GUL/HEL/HKQ 
HYX/GUK/HYW/HKP 
GZU/HYV/HKN/HKR 
HYY/JSH/JSJ/JSK . . . . . . . . . . G 060 162 A2 

NB - for the V6's above, ZF also list G 055 005 A2 depending on Main Parts List) 

Chris


----------



## jkuisma (Nov 23, 2009)

> The two vital things that are often missed are only doing a single fluid change, and not updating the software based on the coding of the new fluid.


 I wholly agree. If I may, would add a third major issue: not observing the correct oil temp when doing the refill. If the oil is too warm, it has too high viscosity and drains out from the filler plug faster than it should. This way, you can't get the correct amount of oil filled in. A simple drain operation gets out about 4 liters; with too warm oil, you only get in about 3 liters. One liter missing is a lot. 

Jouko


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Re ATF changes, ZF state this in their on-line documentation: 



> ZF 5-, 6- and 8-speed as well as the ZF 4HP20 automatic transmissions [but not 5HP18 & 5HP30] are filled maintenance-free with specially developed partially synthetic ATF oils.
> 
> Maintenance-free fills are intended for normal operating conditions.
> 
> ...


 My interpretation is this: 

If "average" users don't need to change the ATF then that must refer to the median group, say those between 33% and 66% of all user types. Obviously very 'mild' users in the lowest 33% don't need to change either. So that means 33% of users MUST change their ATF as recommended. 

The doc is posted on ZF's website here. 

The approved oils listed in the doc are the same as those in the VW parts lists mentioned above, but ZF do state that they copied these from the manufacturer's spare parts lists. 

Chris


----------



## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

Another interesting ZF document on transmission fluid changes and mechatronic changing. 

http://www.apra-europe.org/dateien/...r_Bach_ZF_Transmissions_with_Mechatronics.pdf


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Anyone know roughly how much this job is? The dealer's quoting me $1100, and I think that's just for a single flush.


----------



## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

invisiblewave said:


> Anyone know roughly how much this job is? The dealer's quoting me $1100, and I think that's just for a single flush.


 
I would think $1100 would cover two drain and fills plus a new filter. The fluid isn't cheap from VW but even at $50-$60 per lire, I believe 8 quarts will replace two drains. So that's $400-$480 for fluid, add a pan gasket and a filter and there's still room for 3 or 4 hours of labor. The only tough part of the job is to get the fill level right. But many cars use the same process now, so techs should be getting pretty skilled at the task. 

However, when a dealer doesn't want to do a job, they tend to over-quote the work so the customer goes away.  

Jim X


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

LOL. You should have heard the conversation about the software update! They just DON'T want to do it! 

Spoke to another dealer, and they're quoting $480, but both of them said it was for a single flush. Why is it SO difficult to get definitive answers from them on this stuff?? The second guy broke down the quote, 2 hours labor $224, plus $250 for the fluid.


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Well, the tech at the dealer refused point-blank to look at Tomasty's information. $1100 for a single flush, following their manual, and they claim there's nobody at VWoA they can speak to about a double flush or about the newer fluid being different from the older fluid. I guess it'll be the other dealer who earlier quoted $480 for the same job, and I'll just pay them to do it twice.


----------



## tomasty (May 24, 2011)

invisiblewave said:


> Well, the tech at the dealer refused point-blank to look at Tomasty's information. $1100 for a single flush, following their manual, and they claim there's nobody at VWoA they can speak to about a double flush or about the newer fluid being different from the older fluid. I guess it'll be the other dealer who earlier quoted $480 for the same job, and I'll just pay them to do it twice.


 That just proved how arrogant and incapable the VW dealers are in North America, I am not surprised at all. 

Tomas


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

That's exactly right, the tech was an arrogant sob. I printed out your post but he wouldn't even look at it. They ended up telling me to go to another dealer. Unbelievable. I'm tempted to just let the warranty run out and then sell the car, they're obviously incapable of maintaining it.


----------



## boreal (Aug 18, 2005)

I hate to keep beating this subject but this shudder that I have is driving me nuts!!! I have dumped the oil twice, 3 liters each time,and put in g 060 162 a2 lifeguard 8 and still have the shudder. Do I need one more time to make it 9 liters?? Is it work changing the diff oil? Could diff or tranny mounts be the culprit? The transmission is new,center driveshaft new,latest software installed,tires are new. I have not tried force balancing the wheels yet as the steering wheel doesn't shake and the vibes seem to be coming through the body. It seems to get better as the car warms up. 
Thoughts????


----------



## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Hi,
Regarding your shudder issue, some time ago, I replaced the engine mounts and the tranmission mounts on my mercedes 1992 500E and subsequently the car seemed smoother. A vibration that you could feel at highway speed 120-140km/h was gone. However that vibration was not as bad so as to be considered as shudder.
Phaetons engine mounts are vacuum operated, if I am not wrong. Somewhere whithin the engine bay there are the valves that regulate the vacuum of the engine mounts. These valves are controled by the engine control unit, so perhaps if these valves or the wiring that leads to the valves are faulty, the engine mounts might not work correctly.
Another culprit, as you suggested, could be the differential mounts so it might be worth having a look at them.
I am also aware that when you have the propshaft replaced it has to be aligned. There is a dot at the differential flange and a dot at the propshaft flange that have to coincide. It might be worth checking that too.
I hope it helps.

Gabriel


----------



## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Just dropped the P to the local VW shop for an ATF change. Thank you Tomas and everyone else for the valuable input. 

Hoping for the best.

Regards


----------



## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Well, I got my P out of the shop yesterday after an ATF change plus a new filter and gasket. After driving it 50 miles on the highway speed and in the city I could say that the positive difference is amazing. The car drives much better and no more knocks specially when shifting down from third to second. I'll do a flush after few hundred miles. I guess the most important outcome from this experience is that I drive now with a peace of mind.

Regards


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Salah, are you saying the flush cured hard downshifts?


----------



## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

The initial fluid change cured it! I haven't flushed yet as that would be done may be in two weeks time based on the milage I'm putting nowadays.


----------



## zoltan99 (Jul 22, 2013)

Bindaham,

Which fluid did you get put in? Glad to hear your problems have gone away!

ZF LG6, LG8, or a VW SKU?


----------



## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Hello Zoltan,

I did it at a VW dealer so I believe the fluid should be a VW SKU. Must be the latest stuff. I was told that they got 8 liters out!


----------



## zoltan99 (Jul 22, 2013)

Salah,

I believe it would add to the forum if you were able to post the exact SKU beginning with G 055 or G 060, to denote different fluids which both seem to be used by VW, and are apparently analogous to ZF LG6 and LG8. I am currently facing this confusion and will probably be filling my V8's transmission with ATF this week.


----------



## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Will do shortly


----------



## RocketVol (Oct 7, 2014)

Zoltan

Just another data point for you, when I had my V8's mechatronic replaced under warranty last year the VW dealer used the G-060-162-A2. And based on what VAGCOM tells me, my transmission still has the old software load so it looks like they did not flash it. But I have put over 15,000 miles on it since then and have not had any transmission problems. Still have warranty left so am willing to let it run and see.

John


----------



## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

zoltan99 said:


> Salah,
> 
> I believe it would add to the forum if you were able to post the exact SKU beginning with G 055 or G 060, to denote different fluids which both seem to be used by VW, and are apparently analogous to ZF LG6 and LG8. I am currently facing this confusion and will probably be filling my V8's transmission with ATF this week.


Hello again Zoltan,

I apologies for taking longer than I thought it would to determine what fluid the dealer used in my ATF change, indeed it was *G060162A2 (LG8)*. It has worked very well thus far. Still have a copule of hundred of miles to drive befor I take it back for a flush.

Regards,


----------



## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

I'm thinking now about how important is the "flush" process when the transmission is performing great after driving the P for over 200 Miles. Since 8 liters of old fluid came out, I wonder if I should leave it alone!


----------



## Paximus (Aug 26, 2011)

Hi Salah,

I can't add any further information on the Phaeton (mine has stopped snatching into 1st gear after letting it self-adjust for a year to adapt) but I have had a few other transmission events on other cars recently.

I have a Mercedes A-Class which started harsh shifting at 90k miles. I had the ATF changed and after another 500 miles of self-adaptation it now shifts like new. That was a simple flush, with residual fluid retained.

I also have a Chrysler Neon which suffered a leaking oil cooler pipe in the radiator, so the solenoid pack was trashed and the fluid very milky. The car also got drowned in a flash flood. After drying the car out and replacing the radiator and solenoid pack (three easy bolts under the air filter, with low cost parts) the car was resurrected. It then took a final ATF change using the 'cooling pipe off and pump it out' method, and it now runs fine.

My point is that transmissions are unexpectedly tough, despite being precision mechanics which can suffer abuse, so perhaps you can wait a year for the next ATF change? If the mechanicals are not actually broken then the controller is capable of making some good adaptation adjustments.

Chris


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Did they put the same fluid back in as they took out? If they did, I'd be inclined to leave it since they got so much out anyway, but if they went from LG6 to LG8, I'd definitely do the second flush. Getting fluid information from a VW dealer, however, is like asking Donald Trump for a coherent foreign policy stance.


----------



## steveskinr (Oct 31, 2007)

Could you ask them how they got so much fluid out? I'd be interested.

He got out twice as much as my mechanic does.


----------



## _Taz_ (Jan 8, 2016)

Just to add gents, I've done the fluid swap on my phaeton ( same box as my Audi A6 ).

Quite easy, but a bit messy !

I think I used about 9 litres of lifeguard 6 ( you MUST use only this fluid or an equivalent : Miele etc ). 

New filter & gasket & torque convertor flush took about 4hrs ( sadly I don't have a proper lift, one day perhaps ! ).

To do the converter, you simply do the normal sump drain, filter change, then refill to normal cold level.

Fire up the engine & disconnect a hose from the RAD ATF side & direct it into a bucket...

Run the engine shortly & wait for the flow to subside.

Job done. 

Think i got my stuff fro JPAT or Bristol tranns' ( about £220 I think ! not cheap ! )

Did the diffs too, but that's another story & pain, including sourcing the Sturaco FM modifier !

Regards,

Taz


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Did you check the fluid level through the large drain plug underneath or using the inspection plug on the side? The reason I ask is because the underneath of my pan seems to differ from the pictures, I have the one large plug that is shown in the diagrams for filling and checking the level, but I don't see the separate drain plug. When I removed the large on to check the level, fluid started pouring out, so I quickly just tightened it again.


----------



## _Taz_ (Jan 8, 2016)

Hi mate, the bmw box, which is also a zf unit, hp19, has the filler on the side, as I did it for a mate..

On the phaeton, you checked it correct, through the big filler drain plug... I recall at 40c with the engine running in park... 

I'll post a pic of the sump sometime. 

Regards, taz 😊


----------



## _Taz_ (Jan 8, 2016)

Soz, not learned how to edit on this forum bud... You could also check on the side plug, as the oil level is the same height 😊

But the level Must be done with engine running at sump temp at 40c in park 

Regards, taz


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Yes, I suspect that for some reason my VW remanfactured transmission has the 2 wheel drive pan, like the BMW.


----------



## _Taz_ (Jan 8, 2016)

Ok, didn't realise it was a recon... But same casing, all they do is bolt the torsen Lim slip diff on the end bud.

Regards, taz


----------



## invisiblewave (Sep 22, 2008)

Yes, that belly pan on the valve body is different, as is the method for checking the fluid level.


----------



## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

_Taz_ said:


> To do the converter, you simply do the normal sump drain, filter change, then refill to normal cold level.
> 
> Fire up the engine & disconnect a hose from the RAD ATF side & direct it into a bucket...
> 
> Run the engine shortly & wait for the flow to subside.



Hi,
Did you measure how much fluid was in the bucket in order to stop the engine or did you wait until the tranny starved?

Gabriel


----------



## _Taz_ (Jan 8, 2016)

Hello Gabriel, lol, no I do things very methodically. I used a pump which measures the fluid in and the bucket has measurement marks in it. I use a mate to start the engine and watch the level fill in the bucket, and shut off just before i reach the fill quantity or if the flow begins to subside, thus there is no risk of running the primary pump dry in the sump. Done this on other atf boxes for years. There are other methods such as using a vac pump on the outlet Lin to encourage flow, but this can aerate the fluid too much, regards. 😊


----------



## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Hi again Taz,
Thanks for your clarification.
So basically you filled twice and drained once the transmission (from the heat exchanger pipe) in order to completely remove the old fluid, did not you? 
The transmission fluid in my phaeton was replaced by the VW dealer when it had 90.000km. Currently it has just reached the 150.000km mark and I was planning to replace it again and your method seems brilliant to thoroughly refill the transmission with new fluid.

Gabriel


----------



## _Taz_ (Jan 8, 2016)

Hello 

Yes that is correct, the only downside to this process ( and there always is ! ), is the cost, as you basically will use a few litres of new fluid to push the old fluid out of the torque converter ( or as best as one can do for a 95% fluid flush ).

I think I purchased about 11 litres of Lifeguard 6 & used up about 9.5 litres.

It's no issue to me, as I sold the other leftover fluid to a mate whom I helped on his 535D.

As my vehicle was bought 2nd hand with about 100k on the clock, I had no real idea it had been done before.

Looking at the sump & filter, I suspect it may have been, as it was pretty clean, and the magnets were very clean.

Just remember to have someone help when you start the vehicle ( when you've done the initial cold fill & measured how much you've put in, I'm sure it was about 2.5l ).

You are really looking to shut down the engine once you have just over 2 litres returned into the bucket ( this process happens fast, so expect it to happen in 30 seconds or so )

You've done very well then in terms of a comprehensive transmission fluid change 

Then it's a final fill, cycle through the gears ( with the brake on ! ) and then a final 40c top up.

Takes a bit of practice & you may get a bit messy, but it's is worth the effort.

In the future, a simple filter swap & drain will then suffice, as you'll be on top of the fluids health.

Hope this helps


----------



## _Taz_ (Jan 8, 2016)

For reference, I think this was a pic of the sump when I did the change ( or maybe it was my Audi A6, both the same boxes ).

As you can see, the residual matter in the oil was minimal & indicates a pretty happy transmission 




regards,

Taz


----------



## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Hello once more Taz,
Just a quick one: Which pipe is the one that you disconnected from the heat exchanger?

Gabriel


----------



## _Taz_ (Jan 8, 2016)

To be honest Gabriel, I disconnected both, as I wasn't sure from the bell-housing which was the supply / return.

Just disconnect both & aim into a bucket, it works fine pal, it also allows you to drain a slug of oil from the transcooler body too.

I was oddly enough trying to look for a picture to show you, but alas I cannot find it on my PC 


regards.


----------



## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

That is fine Taz, no worries. 
Will follow your method shortly!
Much appreciated .

Gabriel


----------



## _Taz_ (Jan 8, 2016)

You are welcome, I hope it goes ok & take you time ! 

I used this to pump the fluid in ( actually have 2 of these, one for my Merc & One for my VAGs ), simple pneumatic hand pump / garden sprayer & the lance if perfect to fit in the fill port !

Perfect way of measuring & dead easy to administer in the right amount ( 5l at a time i needed ! ).

I should have bought another for the diffs, but ended up using a manual 1.5l syringe, which is just fin




regards.


----------



## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Hello *Chris*,

My apologies for the late replies for you and every one else.


I went ahead with the flush after 500 miles or so of the initial fluid replacment. I chose to live in a peace of mind over saving some money.



Hello *invisiblewave*,

Actually they used G060162a2 (aka LG8). So I agree with you, a flush here is a must in order to get rid of any amount of initial ATF left from the replacement procedure. 



Hello *Steve*,

Unfortunately, I haven't got a clear answer regarding your question. . I remember some gentleman here posted something about himself disconnecting a line from the oil cooler during the replacement procedure in order to get all the oil out. I'll try to find that piece and post it.

Regards,


----------



## Bindaham (Apr 4, 2014)

Steve,

I just read the exchange of Taz and Gabriel, so need to look for anything. Gabriel summed Taz's procedure that I was thinking of 



Gabs08PHTN said:


> basically you filled twice and drained once the transmission (from the heat exchanger pipe) in order to completely remove the old fluid


----------

