# TTRS - Strange sound when cold over 2k RPM?



## - Jeremy - (Feb 23, 2006)

For you TTRS guys in the northern climates: Does your car make a funky sound when cold over 2,000 RPM? Mine is pretty consistent. When the car is cold or semi-cold, and I start to rev it over 2k, a strange rattling/vibrating/hissing/grinding sound eminates from the engine bay. At first, I thought it was maybe a blow off valve preventing boost when it's so cold. But it just sounds awful, so I don't think that's it. After the car warms up for a few minutes, it's fine. So I just short-shift at 2k until it warms up. The car runs like a champ otherwise. No CEL, etc. It could be a cold heat shield that needs to warm up? I don't know.

The car exhibits no other problems, so I'll wait until my first inspection to have it looked at. Just curious if anyone else hears something similar from theirs. I need a friend to help out while I try to pinpoint the problem.

- Jeremy -


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

There's been a lot of chatter about this on QW...http://forums.quattroworld.com/tt2/msgs/17368.phtml

I don't think anyone has figured out what it is though.


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## LongviewTx (Dec 26, 1999)

I've noted it on cold mornings, after allowing RPM to drop to 750 then driving off slow, second gear. Disappears after driving onto and at roadway speeds. I have only heard it initially and when the engine temperature is still not to center of gauge.

I have assumed it is part of that sophisticated german engineering, doing what it is supposed to do at these non-normal operating temperatures.


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## - Jeremy - (Feb 23, 2006)

Black BeauTTy said:


> There's been a lot of chatter about this on QW...http://forums.quattroworld.com/tt2/msgs/17368.phtml
> 
> I don't think anyone has figured out what it is though.


Sweet Baby Jesus, I hate the layout of that forum.

Otherwise, it sounds like they're probably hearing what I'm hearing. Although mine is only RPM related and has nothing to do with the clutch or brakes. Although, I suppose it seems amplified when I hit the clutch above 2k. Presumably because the flywheel can spin faster for a second when disengaged. 

- Jeremy -


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## neonova6 (Aug 26, 2011)

Hot damn, I started hearing this just this last weekend. A short trip to get my hair cut Saturday morning, and I noticed, what sounded like the synchromesh not "meshing" from under the hood ( disclaimer: note, NOT implying I think it's the synchromesh, that's just what I think it sounds like). By the time I got a few blocks down the street it was gone. I've heard it again the next morning and went away after a few minutes. Then this morning, no noise. So I'm not really sure what's the correlation other than it 'sometimes' happens when driving and the engine is cold. When it does occur, the clutch is engaged, and engine is in gear. The noise goes away when I take it out of gear.

I should note, these were not cold mornings by comparison, single digit positive centigrade overnight.

EDIT: Noise happened again this morning. I was originally mistaken thinking it only happened while in gear. Rev the engine over 2k while in neutral and no motion, and I hear the noise.


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## lcrcr (Jun 10, 2005)

I commented on the QW forum that my TTS makes a similar sound. And so does my Golf R. I think it is the Haldex trying to deal with cold hydraulic fluid. (Of course, I could be full of fluid myself.)


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## - Jeremy - (Feb 23, 2006)

lcrcr said:


> I commented on the QW forum that my TTS makes a similar sound. And so does my Golf R. I think it is the Haldex trying to deal with cold hydraulic fluid. (Of course, I could be full of fluid myself.)


Okay. That's super interesting. But it makes me feel better that it's not only the TTRS that does it. I guess I won't worry about it, but it's a little embarrasing when driving away from the office and everyone hears that godawful noise.

I still wonder what it is, though...

- Jeremy -


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## joshsmith (Apr 17, 2011)

Yea mine friggin does this!! Thought it was a lose fan belt or something... Only happens when cold start though and once warm/ after 5-10 min all is well. Go figure


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## YYC Dubber (Jun 23, 2011)

- Jeremy - said:


> Okay. That's super interesting. But it makes me feel better that it's not only the TTRS that does it. I guess I won't worry about it, but it's a little embarrasing when driving away from the office and everyone hears that godawful noise.
> 
> I still wonder what it is, though...
> 
> - Jeremy -


hmmmm.... that haldex idea sounds rather reasonable... I drive my (fwd only) GTI in cold temps (-10 all the way to -30*C) and I have never experienced any such noise...


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## - Jeremy - (Feb 23, 2006)

YYC Dubber said:


> hmmmm.... that haldex idea sounds rather reasonable... I drive my (fwd only) GTI in cold temps (-10 all the way to -30*C) and I have never experienced any such noise...


But my R32, using the previous generation Haldex, did not do this.

I know the Golf R is using the latest generation Haldex like the TTRS. But does the TTS?

- Jeremy -


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## lcrcr (Jun 10, 2005)

- Jeremy - said:


> But my R32, using the previous generation Haldex, did not do this.
> 
> I know the Golf R is using the latest generation Haldex like the TTRS. But does the TTS?
> 
> - Jeremy -


yes. The TTS (2011 anyway) is the same as the R.


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## DrDomm (Feb 16, 2003)

I mentioned this months ago in the "Quirks" thread. Got no response. Guess it gets cold here sooner.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

This is very interesting, I was wondering if I was the only one suffering through this problem (and if I had managed to damage my car in some way). It's good to hear that I'm not.

I picked up my TT-RS at the end of December and didn't notice the noise for the first week or two. Since then, I'd like to say it has been getting progressively worse, but I cannot be sure. I went easy on the engine for the first ~1200 miles and often let the car idle for several minutes before taking off. In any case, the problem is bad enough that I've already taken the TT-RS to the dealer twice.

The first time around, I described the symptoms as clearly audible metallic grinding sounds when spinning the engine up to ~2200 RPM. As far as I knew, this would only happen if the car had sat for several hours, and I always let the engine idle long enough for the RPMs to drop below 1000 before attempting a reproduction. I also advised the dealer that as the engine warmed up, the problem would move up in the rev-range and become less pronounced before disappearing completely at ~3000 RPM. Lastly, I mentioned that on some days, the car was perfectly fine.

Since the S5 I owned prior to the TT-RS was a bit of a problem child (steering vibration, carbon build-up, ...) and thus a somewhat regular visitor at the dealership I had it serviced at, I have a good working relationship with my service adviser there. Because of that and because the car is brand new, the dealer took my concern seriously and kept the car for a few days while attempting to diagnose the failure. Their first guess was that the noise was coming from the transmission. They also escalated the problem to Audi, who sent an area rep to investigate. Unfortunately, the TT-RS decided to behave on that day, yielding little useful data.

The (mostly disappointing) result of the first visit was that heat shielding was adjusted speculatively. The Audi rep said to bring the problem up again at the 5000 mile service, unless it went away by itself. It was suggested that unless matching reports from other TT-RS owners came in, Audi would be unlikely to investigate proactively.

Two weeks later, I took the car back to the dealership and made it clear that I was very concerned that the problem might be serious, and that I did not think it was acceptable for a brand new car to exhibit such (embarrassing) symptoms in the first place. I had also determined that it was generally sufficient to let the car sit for 2-3 hours in between reproduction attempts, and that if the engine wasn't given time to idle initially, the sounds were often audible at much lower RPMs than ~2200 early on.

The dealer investigated again and apparently had more luck reproducing the problem at its worst, as my adviser informed me that they'd captured audio/video coverage and forwarded it to Audi. He also said that he was able to make the problem happen most consistently by spinning the engine up to ~2000 RPMs and then releasing the gas pedal completely, allowing the engine to sweep the rev-range quickly on the way down to idle.

Long story short, the Audi rep came out again but still couldn't pinpoint the source of the noise. He did however notice vibration on some rod in the intake manifold assembly that apparently wasn't there on another TT-RS he had looked at. To eliminate it as the culprit, a replacement part was ordered. Unfortunately, there's little in the way of parts available in the U.S., so the part was ordered from Germany (with a 10 business day lead time). Since the dealer was also missing a single-use gasket and couldn't put the engine back together, my TT-RS has been sitting at the dealership since.

This was two weeks ago, so chances are I'll learn more this week.


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## mtbscoTT (Jan 14, 2003)

Weird. Granted it doesn't stay cold here in Texas for long, my RS has been started and run in 30-40 degree weather some since I got it in August and I haven't heard any strange noises at all.
When I first start it up in the morning, or after it's been sitting a few hours outside, I get the fast idle. I don't touch the gas and let it cycle back down to regular idle which usually takes a minute or so and then I drive on easily. I put the onscreen display to oil temperature and do not rev over 3K until it starts showing the oil is warming (starts showing at 140 degrees). 
Don't know if my start/warmup procedure is more conservative than some of yours, but sounds like your cars are making the noise right from startup, hope it gets resolved or at least diagnosed accurately.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

I've practically always waited for the idle to settle (which typically takes 1-2 minutes) and then let it idle a bit longer (at least long enough that when I finally press the sport button, the exhaust flap opens right away) before setting out. I've also avoided pushing the engine until the oil temperature has exceeded 90°C, so I'd say I've been leaning on the conservative side. But none of this seems to make a difference as far as this problem is concerned. Unless I let the engine idle for close to 10 minutes, it will emit the rattling sound most of the time.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Oh, and since I'm located in the Bay Area, intense cold isn't really a factor.


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## - Jeremy - (Feb 23, 2006)

Yep. What you guys are saying is exactly the same as I'm experiencing. Even down to the startup/warmup procedures. I always let it settle down into low idle before driving off. And I never take it above 3k until it's reading 90C, etc.

I think we can rule out the Haldex unit as the culprit because the problem is directly related to RPM and not to road speed. I do have a feeling that it's a problem with a shield or a shaft of some sort. Once the metal heats up and expands, the problem goes away. 

Well the good news is that enough of us have the problem. Now we just need to plan a mass registration of complaints at our 5k services.

- Jeremy -


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## neonova6 (Aug 26, 2011)

fourtunes said:


> Oh, and since I'm located in the Bay Area, intense cold isn't really a factor.


Which dealer did you take yours to? I've not take mine in yet,  so it would be nice to go to a service department that's already familiar with the problem.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

neonova6 said:


> Which dealer did you take yours to? I've not take mine in yet, so it would be nice to go to a service department that's already familiar with the problem.


Audi Stevens Creek


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

I heard back from the dealer today. They replaced the part and put the intake manifold back on, but the noise persisted. The Audi rep came out again and the new theory now is that it's a problem with the turbo. More specifically, the speculation is that the wastegate isn't operating correctly. They're continuing their investigation.


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## DrDomm (Feb 16, 2003)

fourtunes said:


> I heard back from the dealer today. They replaced the part and put the intake manifold back on, but the noise persisted. The Audi rep came out again and the new theory now is that it's a problem with the turbo. More specifically, the speculation is that the wastegate isn't operating correctly. They're continuing their investigation.


Well, this would be a common problem, then.


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## neonova6 (Aug 26, 2011)

Well that's a disappointment, though it's not like it was not expected. At least they have a second theory to go on... I was thinking on they way home today, that it might be turbo related. Almost as if there wasn't getting enough oil into the bearing. Letting it sit long enough gave the oil enough time to drain back out of the bearing... But I'm just grasping at straws here. I do know, that even when the engine has been running, and the oil temp is at the nominal 100*c, I can still get the noise to occur every so often when the engine RPM is dropping back to idle. I'm going to make a video this weekend and send it Audi. This issue is really starting to bug. 

Thanks for the update!



fourtunes said:


> I heard back from the dealer today. They replaced the part and put the intake manifold back on, but the noise persisted. The Audi rep came out again and the new theory now is that it's a problem with the turbo. More specifically, the speculation is that the wastegate isn't operating correctly. They're continuing their investigation.


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## - Jeremy - (Feb 23, 2006)

As I mentioned in my first post to start the thread, my first suspicion is that it was the wastegate/BOV. It sounds like excess pressure is being vented to me. Albeit without the cool Fast & Furious effect going on. But I thought that the modern VAG engines were recirculating excess boost internally and not venting to atmosphere in order to speed up spooling times. Is this not the case anymore? I remember there being big problems with faulty N75 units on the 2.0T. My TTRS repair manual shows a N75 Wastegate Bypass Regulator Valve and a N249 Turbocharger Recirculating Valve. The problem may lie with the N75 or the wastegate itself?

Are the TTS and Golf R using the same wastegate? I'm sure they're all using the N75. VAG has used them for years and they always seem to fail. A good way to tell is to log boost pressure with VCDS. But the TTRS has the digital boost guage. But I wonder how accurate it is?

- Jeremy -


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Mine does this too.



fourtunes said:


> Audi Stevens Creek


There were a total of 3 TT-RS cars at Stevend Creek Audi when I went there earlier this week for service (one black, one Suzuka, one Daytona). Was yours the Daytona parked in the back?


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

It's an odd sound because it's related to engine speed but it does occur at the same frequency of the engine speed.

For me it usually occurs around 3k rpm when the engine is very cold, like first thing in the morning. When it occurs it's a very fast rattle that doesn't really change frequency at all, at some point as the engine speed drops off it just stops.

This is also with very light throttle and the boost gauge hasn't moved at all, basically I'm not giving enough throttle to generate any boost at this point. That doesn't mean that the turbo isn't spinning but I don't think the rattle is related to the compressor/turbine wheel because that would change in tone as it wound down. It could be something with a sticky wastegate I guess.

And yes, the TTRS does use a recirculating valve. If you look you can see a ~1" sized hose run from the silver elbow below the throttle body back over to the intake just past the airbox, into a coupler that looks like a MAF housing.

I haven't poked around enough yet to locate the actual N75 but I imagine there is one somewhere.


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## neonova6 (Aug 26, 2011)

Three others!? Any idea what they were in for? That's not very assuring.



Marty said:


> Mine does this too.
> 
> There were a total of 3 TT-RS care at Stevend Creek Audi when I went there earlier this week for service (one black, one Suzuka, one Daytona). Was yours the Daytona parked in the back?


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> Mine does this too.
> 
> There were a total of 3 TT-RS care at Stevend Creek Audi when I went there earlier this week for service (one black, one Suzuka, one Daytona). Was yours the Daytona parked in the back?


Yes, the Daytona Gray one probably is mine.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

neonova6 said:


> Three others!? Any idea what they were in for? That's not very assuring.


Mine was there to get the front brakes replaced due to squealing. They still can't figure out the pedal vibration issue. The Daytona one was fourtunes car. Not sure why the black one was there...


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

fourtunes said:


> I heard back from the dealer today. They replaced the part and put the intake manifold back on, but the noise persisted. The Audi rep came out again and the new theory now is that it's a problem with the turbo. More specifically, the speculation is that the wastegate isn't operating correctly. They're continuing their investigation.


I called my service adviser this morning for an update. Apparently, a replacement turbo was ordered and arrived at the dealership yesterday. It will likely be installed today and the car checked again for the noise.

If I'm lucky and the noise is gone, I may get the car back tomorrow or sometime early next week. Else the odyssey will continue. I have to admit that I'm tiring of Audi antics and beginning to think more seriously about replacing the TT-RS with a car that works. I've owned the TT-RS for about three months now, and between two visits, it's now been at the dealership for close to one of those months. It's continuing right where the S5 left off...


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> I called my service adviser this morning for an update. Apparently, a replacement turbo was ordered and arrived at the dealership yesterday. It will likely be installed today and the car checked again for the noise.
> 
> If I'm lucky and the noise is gone, I may get the car back tomorrow or sometime early next week. Else the odyssey will continue. I have to admit that I'm tiring of Audi antics and beginning to think more seriously about replacing the TT-RS with a car that works. I've owned the TT-RS for about three months now, and between two visits, it's now been at the dealership for close to one of those months. It's continuing right where the S5 left off...


A new turbo?! The cold noise on mine is definitely NOT an issue with the turbo. It very clearly abruptly stops after the first few seconds of driving, so it is something that is controlled.


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## - Jeremy - (Feb 23, 2006)

Marty said:


> A new turbo?! The cold noise on mine is definitely NOT an issue with the turbo. It very clearly abruptly stops after the first few seconds of driving, so it is something that is controlled.


The theory isn't that it's a problem with the Turbo specifically, but that it's a problem with the Wastegate. I don't know why they just didn't replace the Wastegate, but Audi service probably doesn't work like that. They probably receive the Turbo from Borg-Warner as an integrated package.

I understand fortunes' frustration. I'm sure a lot of us will be going through the same thing pretty soon. I hope it solves the problem so you can get the car back and start loving it again.

- Jeremy -


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

- Jeremy - said:


> The theory isn't that it's a problem with the Turbo specifically, but that it's a problem with the Wastegate. I don't know why they just didn't replace the Wastegate, but Audi service probably doesn't work like that. They probably receive the Turbo from Borg-Warner as an integrated package.
> 
> I understand fortunes' frustration. I'm sure a lot of us will be going through the same thing pretty soon. I hope it solves the problem so you can get the car back and start loving it again.
> 
> - Jeremy -


Given the widespread reproduction of the problem (i.e., everyone seems to have the issue), replacing a problem part with a new one isn't going to resolve the issue unless something has been changed in the part to correct the problem from happening again.

I can't imagine how a waste gate could make this sound. It cents back in to the exhaust, and there is no real engine load when the issue occurs.


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Marty said:


> Given the widespread reproduction of the problem (i.e., everyone seems to have the issue), replacing a problem part with a new one isn't going to resolve the issue unless something has been changed in the part to correct the problem from happening again.
> 
> I can't imagine how a waste gate could make this sound. It cents back in to the exhaust, and there is no real engine load when the issue occurs.


Could be the wastegate spring or just the valve itself opening but I agree when it happens for me there's no boost being generated so the wastegate should be fully closed. It seems like it should be pretty easy to isolate with the car on a lift since it happens just revving the engine in neutral. Put it in the air at night, then first thing in the morning have someone rev it while someone else listens around the engine.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

JohnLZ7W said:


> Could be the wastegate spring or just the valve itself opening but I agree when it happens for me there's no boost being generated so the wastegate should be fully closed. It seems like it should be pretty easy to isolate with the car on a lift since it happens just revving the engine in neutral. Put it in the air at night, then first thing in the morning have someone rev it while someone else listens around the engine.


That's what I thought, but it seems that despite several weeks of investigation and several visits from a regional Audi representative, the problem has proven elusive in my case. I don't know of any other owners who've actually dropped their cars off at their dealer for this problem, so progress has been slow overall.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> That's what I thought, but it seems that despite several weeks of investigation and several visits from a regional Audi representative, the problem has proven elusive in my case. I don't know of any other owners who've actually dropped their cars off at their dealer for this problem, so progress has been slow overall.


Do you know which mechanic at Steven's Creek is working on your car?


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## mtbscoTT (Jan 14, 2003)

Marty said:


> (i.e., everyone seems to have the issue)


Don't know if I'm the highest US mileage at 8200+ so far, but I've had no noises or issues like this. Some brake squeal but not enough to warrant any major fix. Other than that, smooth sailing.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> Do you know which mechanic at Steven's Creek is working on your car?


I do not. It sounded like several different people have been involved.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

mtbscoTT said:


> Don't know if I'm the highest US mileage at 8200+ so far, but I've had no noises or issues like this. Some brake squeal but not enough to warrant any major fix. Other than that, smooth sailing.


Mine only does it rarely, and I would have just lumped it in to "general mechanical engine / transmission noises" if other folks hadn't brought it up as a discussion point.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

fourtunes said:


> I called my service adviser this morning for an update. Apparently, a replacement turbo was ordered and arrived at the dealership yesterday. It will likely be installed today and the car checked again for the noise.
> 
> If I'm lucky and the noise is gone, I may get the car back tomorrow or sometime early next week. Else the odyssey will continue. I have to admit that I'm tiring of Audi antics and beginning to think more seriously about replacing the TT-RS with a car that works. I've owned the TT-RS for about three months now, and between two visits, it's now been at the dealership for close to one of those months. It's continuing right where the S5 left off...


I received another update this morning. The replacement turbo installation has been completed and preliminary tests suggest the problem may have been solved. I'm reluctant to celebrate, and it seems so is the dealer. They'll hold the car another day for testing, but may release it tomorrow.

If I do get the car back, I'll test it for a few days before reporting back. Let's hope the noise really is gone and that my experience will allow those of you with the same problem to avoid 4+ weeks of TT RS withdrawal.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> I received another update this morning. The replacement turbo installation has been completed and preliminary tests suggest the problem may have been solved. I'm reluctant to celebrate, and it seems so is the dealer. They'll hold the car another day for testing, but may release it tomorrow.
> 
> If I do get the car back, I'll test it for a few days before reporting back. Let's hope the noise really is gone and that my experience will allow those of you with the same problem to avoid 4+ weeks of TT RS withdrawal.


I'm very curious what the outcome of this is. I heard a similar noise this morning, and it goes away after the first 4 or 5 engine revs in gear. It sounds controlled in some way.


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## fjork_duf (Jul 13, 2001)

fourtunes said:


> I received another update this morning. The replacement turbo installation has been completed and preliminary tests suggest the problem may have been solved. I'm reluctant to celebrate, and it seems so is the dealer. They'll hold the car another day for testing, but may release it tomorrow.
> 
> If I do get the car back, I'll test it for a few days before reporting back. Let's hope the noise really is gone and that my experience will allow those of you with the same problem to avoid 4+ weeks of TT RS withdrawal.


Saw your car up on the lift this weekend when I took delivery of my RS. It sucks that you have to go through this, but they're a good dealer, and have always done right by me. It's good they are being careful with the car. 

I really hope the turbo solved the problem!


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

fjork_duf said:


> Saw your car up on the lift this weekend when I took delivery of my RS. It sucks that you have to go through this, but they're a good dealer, and have always done right by me. It's good they are being careful with the car.
> 
> I really hope the turbo solved the problem!


Right, I have no complaints about the dealership's involvement. I've been a frequent customer of their service department over the last two years, mainly due to the S5's various quirks, and I do believe my service adviser has a genuine interest in helping me get this problem sorted out.

But various Audi processes seem flawed, and I plan on writing AoA a long letter detailing my take on "Vorsprung durch Technik". Judging from other Audi owners' experience, Audi doesn't just send this type of feedback to /dev/null.

In any case, I really just want the car back now. I dropped it off a second time (for this issue) on 2/13 after ~2.5 months of ownership and just having broken the engine in. So it's been a while, and while I know the dealership is generally careful with customers' cars, they're still processing a lot of them day-to-day; sadly, some wear/damage is to be expected.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

fourtunes said:


> Right, I have no complaints about the dealership's involvement. I've been a frequent customer of their service department over the last two years, mainly due to the S5's various quirks, and I do believe my service adviser has a genuine interest in helping me get this problem sorted out.
> 
> But various Audi processes seem flawed, and I plan on writing AoA a long letter detailing my take on "Vorsprung durch Technik". Judging from other Audi owners' experience, Audi doesn't just send this type of feedback to /dev/null.
> 
> In any case, I really just want the car back now. I dropped it off a second time (for this issue) on 2/13 after ~2.5 months of ownership and just having broken the engine in. So it's been a while, and while I know the dealership is generally careful with customers' cars, they're still processing a lot of them day-to-day; sadly, some wear/damage is to be expected.


BTW, here are two photos taken on a day that was blissfully rattle free:


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## fjork_duf (Jul 13, 2001)

fourtunes said:


> BTW, here are two photos taken on a day that was blissfully rattle free:


Sweet! Are those the euro headlight housings?

Here's mine:


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

fjork_duf said:


> Sweet! Are those the euro headlight housings?
> 
> Here's mine:


Very nice. It looks like your photo was taken close to where mine was taken. I have a few snapshots taken on that same parking lot.

And yes, those are ROW headlamp housings.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Hey fourtunes, when do you get your car back?


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> Hey fourtunes, when do you get your car back?


Today, if I'm lucky.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

fourtunes said:


> Today, if I'm lucky.


Well, the verdict is in and it's not what I was hoping for.

In other words, the noise persists and they're out of ideas for the moment. I'm told Audi is going to send out a few more technical folks to check the noise out, but it's going to take time.

I guess I'll contact AoA Customer Care for their input on this, but at this rate, this car is looking more and more like a lemon to me.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> Well, the verdict is in and it's not what I was hoping for.
> 
> In other words, the noise persists and they're out of ideas for the moment. I'm told Audi is going to send out a few more technical folks to check the noise out, but it's going to take time.
> 
> I guess I'll contact AoA Customer Care for their input on this, but at this rate, this car is looking more and more like a lemon to me.


We all hear it. It just be "normal"-ish and a byproduct of some design choice. Mine distinctly "turns off" after the first minute of driving when it's cold. So weird!


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> We all hear it. It just be "normal"-ish and a byproduct of some design choice. Mine distinctly "turns off" after the first minute of driving when it's cold. So weird!


Not everyone hears it. Some owners have put lots of miles on their car and never experienced anything like this.

If it were normal or if there was any certainty that this isn't a potentially serious problem, Audi wouldn't have kept my car for a full month and replaced integral parts of the engine in an effort to isolate the root cause. So the argument that "it's probably nothing" can hardly be made at this point. And despite their efforts, Audi still cannot explain the problem or gauge its severity confidently.

Either way, I don't consider this behavior acceptable in a $60k+ production car that has effectively been on the market since 2009. And even if the root cause was found within the next few weeks and (preferably) resolved or at least explained, I'd still be looking at a car that has had heart surgery within three months of its delivery.

At the end of the day, this experience has made up most (if not all) of the initial TT RS magic/excitement.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> Not everyone hears it. Some owners have put lots of miles on their car and never experienced anything like this.
> 
> If it were normal or if there was any certainty that this isn't a potentially serious problem, Audi wouldn't have kept my car for a full month and replaced integral parts of the engine in an effort to isolate the root cause. So the argument that "it's probably nothing" can hardly be made at this point. And despite their efforts, Audi still cannot explain the problem or gauge its severity confidently.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to hear it sounds so bad on your car. Maybe the noise on mine is different. I'll try to record the sound on a cold start on mine for comparison.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> I'm sorry to hear it sounds so bad on your car. Maybe the noise on mine is different. I'll try to record the sound on a cold start on mine for comparison.


No need to be sorry, it isn't your fault. 

I made a recording of the noise before I took the car in for the first time. I uploaded it here for those who want to sample it. This is what's captured:

Start, high idle: 00:08...
Low idle: 1:08...
Rattle: 1:17-1:20, 1:23-1:26

This rattle @ ~2k RPM reproduced nearly every time, and for several minutes, each time my car had sat idle for 2-3 hours. I really don't think I'm being too picky in this instance.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> No need to be sorry, it isn't your fault.
> 
> I made a recording of the noise before I took the car in for the first time. I uploaded it here for those who want to sample it. This is what's captured:
> 
> ...


Bingo! That's what mine sounds like, too. Exactly how did you record this? (mic in the engine compartment? iPhone duct taped to the hood? Did you just rev the car sitting in place?) I'd like to record mine the same way for comparison.

I always figured I could pinpoint what it was if I just popped the hood while somebody else rev'd it.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> Bingo! That's what mine sounds like, too. Exactly how did you record this? (mic in the engine compartment? iPhone duct taped to the hood?) I'd like to record mine the same way for comparison.


If I recall correctly, I just placed my iPhone on the ground next to the front-left wheel, with the microphone facing away from the engine. Else I had the phone sitting somewhere inside with the driver-side door opened (I made multiple recordings with the phone in different places and don't recall which location this recording corresponds to). The hood was closed in all cases. The noise was loud enough that the microphone placement didn't make much of a difference.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

fourtunes said:


> If I recall correctly, I just placed my iPhone on the ground next to the front-left wheel, with the microphone facing away from the engine. Else I had the phone sitting somewhere inside with the driver-side door opened (I made multiple recordings with the phone in different places and don't recall which location this recording corresponds to). The hood was closed in all cases. The noise was loud enough that the microphone placement didn't make much of a difference.


Oh, also: I just slowly rev'd the engine to ~2200 RPM, held it there for a second or two, then rev'd it higher until the noise disappeared, and finally reduced the RPMs back to ~2200 RPM and held them there again for a second or two.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> I always figured I could pinpoint what it was if I just popped the hood while somebody else rev'd it.


The sad thing is that the dealer says that whenever they leave my car on the lift, the cannot reproduce the problem even if they leave it sitting for a while. For some reason, they can only reproduce it if they leave the car outside overnight (so much for keeping the car in a garage whenever possible...). So as far as I know, they've been having trouble pin-pointing the source despite having enough people to rev and listen at the same time.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

fourtunes said:


> Well, the verdict is in and it's not what I was hoping for.
> 
> In other words, the noise persists and they're out of ideas for the moment. I'm told Audi is going to send out a few more technical folks to check the noise out, but it's going to take time.
> 
> I guess I'll contact AoA Customer Care for their input on this, but at this rate, this car is looking more and more like a lemon to me.


I spoke with the dealership again this morning.

The good news is that with stethoscopes, technicians believe to have had some luck isolating the source of the noise further. The current suspect is the timing chain and various chain guides. I guess given the nature of the noise, this theory seems a more likely one than the ones that preceded it. But a big hurdle to the investigation has been that when the problem reproduces, the noise is very loud and appears to come from everywhere. Long story short, the dealership ordered a replacement timing chain, as well as replacements for all of the chain guides. Maybe the plan is to rebuild the engine bit by bit... 

The bad news is that these parts are unavailable in the U.S. again, so it'll be another two weeks before this new theory can be put to the test.

I also wrote to AoA asking for help yesterday, but haven't heard back. If I understood my service adviser correctly, however, AoA did get in touch with him. So as far as I know, they're aware of this case.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> I spoke with the dealership again this morning.
> 
> The good news is that with stethoscopes, technicians believe to have had some luck isolating the source of the noise further. The current suspect is the timing chain and various chain guides. I guess given the nature of the noise, this theory seems a more likely one than the ones that preceded it. But a big hurdle to the investigation has been that when the problem reproduces, the noise is very loud and appears to come from everywhere. Long story short, the dealership ordered a replacement timing chain, as well as replacements for all of the chain guides. Maybe the plan is to rebuild the engine bit by bit...
> 
> ...


I tried to record my sound this morning, but the engine of course didn't reproduce it when I have a recording device present. 

I'm pretty sure that at least myself and neonova6 have this same issue, so I really doubt you have a part that's gone bad and that replacing that "bad" part with an exactly copy will magically eliminate the issue. 

But to your point, it does sound a lot like a timing chain type of noise. Perhaps there is a sticky hydraulic tensioner of some sort that doesn't free up until oil is either above some minimum temperature or pressure in some cases?

Either way, I'd be really hesitant about replacing parts on your new engine for something that is widespread...


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## $øK (Sep 16, 2011)

Nothing like that here. Obviously not cool sounding. But I'm no Audi tech but it doesn't sound mechanical to me. Granted I only listened once, but it sounded like an exhaust rattle or heat shield vibrating. That's what it sounded like to me. I'm sure the ones with know how will find a cure. Good luck and hope you get your beautiful non-amber havin' TT RS back in perfect order.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> I tried to record my sound this morning, but the engine of course didn't reproduce it when I have a recording device present.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that at least myself and neonova6 have this same issue, so I really doubt you have a part that's gone bad and that replacing that "bad" part with an exactly copy will magically eliminate the issue.
> 
> But to your point, it does sound a lot like a timing chain type of noise. Perhaps there is a sticky hydraulic tensioner of some sort that doesn't free up until oil is either above some minimum temperature or pressure in some cases?


I don't know if the replacements are the exact same parts or not. I have no visibility into that.

That said, I did another search for this problem on European forums, and found this:

http://www.tts-freunde.de/board/boa...-motor-tuning/6813-tt-rs-steuerketten-rasseln.

The thread is in German. This part is interesting:

_[...] Ich hatte mein RS zwischenzeitlich des öfteren bei Audi. Beim ersten mal wurde auf Verdacht das Massenschwungrad gewechselt, ist wohl ein bekanntes Problem - nur leider nicht meins! Zwei Tage später rief ich wieder in meiner Werkstatt an und teilte Ihnen mit, dass das Problem immer noch besteht. Daraufhin hatten sie mein RS eine ganze Woche zur Fehlersuche bis letztendlich zwei Motorspezialisten von Audi Ingolstadt kamen. Bei dem Termin war ich ebenfalls anwesend...

Nach diversen Tests musste ich mir sagen lassen, dass mein RS kein technischen Defekt hat. Bei einem kalten Motor hat die Steuerkette auf dem Kettenspanner bzw. der Führungsschiene etwas Spiel, dadurch entsteht dieses rasseln. Sobald der Motor warm wird, weiten sich durch die Hitze die Bauteile aus und das Spiel ist weg. Dies sei ein Problem, dass ich akzeptieren müsste! [...]_​
This loosely translates to:

_[...] Meanwhile, I had my RS at Audi a few times. The first time, the fly wheel was replaced speculatively, apparently it's a known problem - unfortunately, however, not mine! I called my dealership again two days later to let them know that my problem persists. They then kept my RS a whole week to look for the failure, until two engine specialists came from Audi Ingolstadt. I was also present for that appointment...

Unfortunately, after several tests, I had to let myself be told that my RS had no technical defect. With a cold engine, the timing chain has some play on the tensioner/the guide rail, which causes the rattle. Once the engine warms up, the parts expand in response to the heat and the play is eliminated. I was told this was a problem I had to accept! [...]_​
Also, later in the same thread:

_Hallo, habe auch das Rasseln. Info von Audi, nachdem ich in der Werkstatt war: Problem bekannt, Werkstatt soll keine Reparaturversuche unternehmen, man sucht bei Audi schon nach einer Lösung. Vergiss nicht die Bremsen zu reklamieren, falls Du es noch nicht getan hast, lies hier mal die entsprechenden Threads dazu. Es scheint bessere Beläge zu geben die aber auch bei 2011 produzierten Fahrzeugen erst nach einer Rekla des Kunden eingebaut werden. Soll diese demnächst erhalten._​
_Hello, I also have the rattle. Feedback from Audi, after I was at the dealersip: the problem is known, the dealership was not to attempt repair, Audi was already looking for a solution. Don't forget to RMA the brakes, if you haven't already done so, read up on the relevant threads. It seems that better pads are available, but even in cars built in 2011, they're only installed after a customer RMA. I am to get these pads soon._​
Lastly:
_Mein Kumpel hat seinen RS3 seit ca.6Wochen, ( neu gekauft mittlerweile 3000km) seit letzter Woche steht er in Ingolstadt, für mindestens 4 Wochen. Beim Anlassen ( schon im kalten Zustand ) war ein lautes Rasseln zu hören, dass sich nicht normal anhört. Irgendwie hört sichs nach der Steuerkette an. Der Audihändler konnte dies nicht bestätigen, meinte aber ein anderes Geräusch zu hören. Aufjedenfall hat Audi sofort reagiert und das Auto nach Ingolstadt gebracht. Mal schauen was da noch rauskommt, bei meinen TTRS hatte ich keine Geräusche. Mir kommt es so vor als wenn Audi was zu verbergen hätte, und sie ganz genau wissen was los ist. _​
_A buddy of mine has had his RS3 for about 6 weeks (purchased new, but 3000 km have been put on its clock since). It's been sitting in Ingolstadt since, and will be for at least 4 weeks. After ignition (when cold) a loud rattle could be heard that did not sound normal. It sounded like a timing chain problem somehow. In any case, Audi responded immediately and brought the car to Ingolstadt. We'll have to see what comes out of this, I had no noise with my TTRS. It seems to me as if Audi has something to hide, and they know exactly what's going on._​
So it looks like this isn't a U.S. specific problem, and that Audi has responded differently to individual cases. Other posts to the thread suggest not everyone is experiencing the rattle. Unfortunately, the thread didn't have much of a conclusion. I asked for status.

I thought the reference to the brake pads was interesting, too.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> Either way, I'd be really hesitant about replacing parts on your new engine for something that is widespread...


If I had known what I know today a month or two ago, I would've waited this out, too. 20/20 hind sight.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

fourtunes said:


> I spoke with the dealership again this morning.
> 
> The good news is that with stethoscopes, technicians believe to have had some luck isolating the source of the noise further. The current suspect is the timing chain and various chain guides. I guess given the nature of the noise, this theory seems a more likely one than the ones that preceded it. But a big hurdle to the investigation has been that when the problem reproduces, the noise is very loud and appears to come from everywhere. Long story short, the dealership ordered a replacement timing chain, as well as replacements for all of the chain guides. Maybe the plan is to rebuild the engine bit by bit...
> 
> ...


One more update on this front: I'm told a (the?) regional Audi tech manager (I may not have gotten this quite right) is currently at the dealership checking whether 2013 TT-RS firmware updates help. Apparently, there've been some changes to how oil pressure is regulated when the engine is still cold.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Wow, interesting stuff! That sounds more like the issue, and it matches the rumors about the brakes, too (that new pads are in the works). What's more surprising is that folks are saying that the new pads are already available in Germany.



fourtunes said:


> I don't know if the replacements are the exact same parts or not. I have no visibility into that.
> 
> That said, I did another search for this problem on European forums, and found this:
> 
> ...


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> Wow, interesting stuff! That sounds more like the issue, and it matches the rumors about the brakes, too (that new pads are in the works). What's more surprising is that folks are saying that the new pads are already available in Germany.


Yeah, I'm curious about that bit. However, my brakes weren't squealing much in the 2-3 weeks before I dropped my car off, so this is a secondary concern for me. Maybe I learned how to modulate brake pressure to avoid it. We'll see.

On the rattle front: AoA called me back a little while ago and asked me to describe the problem, etc.. They confirmed they're in touch with the dealership and promised to help drive the problem to resolution. It does sound like they care, which helps restore some of my confidence in Audi.


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## neonova6 (Aug 26, 2011)

Wow, nice work on the german forum research scrubbing fortunes! It does indeed sound like a timing chain rattle. Personally, I'm still not 100% convinced that the noise goes away entirely after driving for a while. Unless I'm hearing some phantom rattling, I still hear the same frequency of noise around 2k RPM, just not as loud, even after the car has been driven for a while. If that's the case, it sounds like Audi might simply pawn it off as a "quirk" of engines with a timing chain over a belt; I would surely hope not though. 

Like Marty, I tried to get a video of the issue two weekends ago, and it wouldn't reproduce for me in the early morning. I'll have to just keep trying until I get lucky. 

Now if I were Audi, and was feeling particular clever, I'd have a whole matrix of tri-axis accelerometers pasted to the main mechanical points of the engine. I would expect a noise like that to produce some level of detectable vibration that could be used to pin point the source. I'm sure they have better methods...


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

neonova6 said:


> Wow, nice work on the german forum research scrubbing fortunes! It does indeed sound like a timing chain rattle. Personally, I'm still not 100% convinced that the noise goes away entirely after driving for a while. Unless I'm hearing some phantom rattling, I still hear the same frequency of noise around 2k RPM, just not as loud, even after the car has been driven for a while. If that's the case, it sounds like Audi might simply pawn it off as a "quirk" of engines with a timing chain over a belt; I would surely hope not though.
> 
> Like Marty, I tried to get a video of the issue two weekends ago, and it wouldn't reproduce for me in the early morning. I'll have to just keep trying until I get lucky.
> 
> Now if I were Audi, and was feeling particular clever, I'd have a whole matrix of tri-axis accelerometers pasted to the main mechanical points of the engine. I would expect a noise like that to produce some level of detectable vibration that could be used to pin point the source. I'm sure they have better methods...


If it's a timing chain thing I wonder if it is also present on the new 2.0TSI engines. AFAIK the 2.5T head is basically the same as the new 2.0T.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

neonova6 said:


> [...] Personally, I'm still not 100% convinced that the noise goes away entirely after driving for a while. Unless I'm hearing some phantom rattling, I still hear the same frequency of noise around 2k RPM, just not as loud, even after the car has been driven for a while. If that's the case, it sounds like Audi might simply pawn it off as a "quirk" of engines with a timing chain over a belt; I would surely hope not though [...]


I thought that was the case with my car, as well. One or two posters on the German forum suggest they hear a rattling noise when cornering. But I couldn't be sure that I wasn't hearing the noise simply because I was listening for it (i.e. phantom noise, as you suggest). I won't worry about that for now.


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## neonova6 (Aug 26, 2011)

Ah, no, certainly not worried. But I do think that even if the noise is still there ( although not loud ) it lends credence to the timing chain theory since there would always be some amount of play between the chain and the tensioner. Why it only happens at a certain RPM range is anyones guess... Chain tension harmonics? If that is such a thing... 



fourtunes said:


> I thought that was the case with my car, as well. One or two posters on the German forum suggest they hear a rattling noise when cornering. But I couldn't be sure that I wasn't hearing the noise simply because I was listening for it (i.e. phantom noise, as you suggest). I won't worry about that for now.


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

I have been listening intently since getting my car back from the AWE boys and I still don't hear a thing. It fires up and sounds perfectly fine unless I'm missing something subtle. 

Great work researching the German forums though, you gotta love the internet! It is also nice to see that Audi is stepping up to the plate to resolve this for you. Keep us posted.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

neonova6 said:


> Ah, no, certainly not worried. But I do think that even if the noise is still there ( although not loud ) it lends credence to the timing chain theory since there would always be some amount of play between the chain and the tensioner. Why it only happens at a certain RPM range is anyones guess... Chain tension harmonics? If that is such a thing...


There are certainly resonant frequencies associates with the timing chain system / mechanical layout that will make it rattle around more at specific RPMs relative to others. If its well controlled, you won't hear it of course.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Just reproduced the problem! But it stopped before I could take a video.

My rattle happens right at 2200-2400 RPM, and is silent below that. I'll snag a video soon enough. It does not sound healthy at all, and is of course way more audible with the windows down.

Whatever tech at the dealer thought that this noise was a wastegate should stop working on your car immediately!

So to folks trying to reproduce this:
1) make sure the car is cold and has been sitting for many hours
2) roll the windows down
3) start the car and let it idle briefly to let oil circulate (just a few seconds)
4) slowly rev the engine up through 2000-2500 RPM back and forth an listen. Hear a loud rattle right around 2200 RPM? Bingo! No noise? Try again tomorrow. 

My noise goes away after a minute or two.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> Just reproduced the problem! But it stopped before I could take a video.
> 
> My rattle happens right at 2200-2400 RPM, and is silent below that. I'll snag a video soon enough. It does not sound healthy at all, and is of course way more audible with the windows down.


Well, it's good to hear that your car's symptoms really do seem to be consistent with mine's. I hope this issue doesn't bug you to the same extent as it does me, though. Else I'd have to feel bad. 



Marty said:


> Whatever tech at the dealer thought that this noise was a wastegate should stop working on your car immediately!


I don't think the dealership's technicians are to blame. As far as I know, none of the changes (with the exception of the heat shielding adjustment) were made under the dealership's authority. Since it's a newly introduced engine, dealerships supposedly aren't allowed to attempt repairs on their own.

Also, I imagine investigating intermittent problems like this with new engines of this complexity is a bit like debugging a black box. They followed a process of elimination and picked the wrong culprit twice, but at least they didn't give up (I know what that feels like from experience with the S5).



Marty said:


> So to folks trying to reproduce this:
> 1) make sure the car is cold and has been sitting for many hours
> 2) roll the windows down
> 3) start the car and let it idle until the idle drops down to below 1000 RPM
> ...


A few comments on this (I'll repeat myself, but just in case):

1) In my experience, it is sufficient to let the car sit for 2-3 hours. However, the actual time will vary on ambient conditions (whereas I've had the rattle after letting the car sit for 2 hours in the parking garage at work, the dealership claims they need to let my car sit outside overnight in order to reproduce the problem). Mileage will vary.

3), 4) You needn't wait for the idle to go low. In fact, while that's normally a good idea, it takes a minute away from the failure window. You can slowly rev the engine immediately after ignition, and will likely first hear the rattle well below 2200 RPM. It moves up in the rev range after that and eventually disappears around 3000 RPM (it did for me, anyhow).


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> Well, it's good to hear that your car's symptoms really do seem to be consistent with mine's. I hope this issue doesn't bug you to the same extent as it does me, though. Else I'd have to feel bad.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think the dealership's technicians are to blame. As far as I know, none of the changes (with the exception of the heat shielding adjustment) were made under the dealership's authority. Since it's a newly introduced engine, dealerships supposedly aren't allowed to attempt repairs on their own.


I just surprised that any tech would agree that the noise was turbo-related given how it sounds. He should have veto'd that call by Audi (if that's who pushed for it). 



fourtunes said:


> A few comments on this (I'll repeat myself, but just in case):
> 
> 1) In my experience, it is sufficient to let the car sit for 2-3 hours. However, the actual time will vary on ambient conditions (whereas I've had the rattle after letting the car sit for 2 hours in the parking garage at work, the dealership claims they need to let my car sit outside overnight in order to reproduce the problem). Mileage will vary.
> 
> 3), 4) You needn't wait for the idle to go low. In fact, while that's normally a good idea, it takes a minute away from the failure window. You can slowly rev the engine immediately after ignition, and will likely first hear the rattle well below 2200 RPM. It moves up in the rev range after that and eventually disappears around 3000 RPM (it did for me, anyhow).


Good points. I couldn't reproduce it when my car sat overnight this morning, but I was able to after it sat during work. As for the idle, I only suggested it to let the oil circulate. To your point, you just need to let it idle for a few seconds before you can slowly rev it to 2000-2500 RPM without worry.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

fourtunes said:


> [...] So it looks like this isn't a U.S. specific problem, and that Audi has responded differently to individual cases. Other posts to the thread suggest not everyone is experiencing the rattle. Unfortunately, the thread didn't have much of a conclusion. I asked for status. [...]


 I got a few responses on the forum. Three owners confirmed that they're hearing the same noise. Their feedback also suggests that the circumstances are the same. One of the posters says he wrote to one of Germany's major Auto magazines about this problem - apparently they had just run an article on timing chain issues in Volkswagens. 

Beyond that, not much in the way of updates from overseas. With one possible exception: 

_Bei mir tritt - wie in einem anderen thread beschrieben - genau das gleiche problem auf. aber nur bei kaltem motor und standzeit über 6 std. zuerst ist mir das rasseln beim rückwärts rangieren aufgefallen. es tritt aber auch ausgekuppelt und im leerlauf auf. sobald der motor auf temperatur ist, ists weg...war ebenfalls schon mehrmals beim  soundfile an audi geschickt, etc..blabla: audi ist das problem bekannt, momentan noch nicht gelöst und wenn die ursache entdeckt wurde, dann gilt es erstmal festzustellen, obs schädlich fürs triebwerk ist. klingt mir auch sehr nach hinhalte-taktik...bin auch planlos, was ich jetzt machen soll... _​ 
_The same problem - as described in the other thread - occurs for me, as well. But only when the engine is cold and after having sat idle for more than 6 hours. I first noticed the problem when backing up. But it also occurs out of gear and when idling. As soon as the engine is at operating temperature, it's gone... I also have been at [the dealer] several times. Sent the soundfile to Aud, etc... blah blah: the problem is known to Audi, but as yet unsolved. And when the root cause has been determined, then the next step is to determine if it is harmful to the engine. Sounds like hold-off tactics to me... I'm also clueless, what I'm to do next..._​ 
Swell.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> I got a few responses on the forum. Three owners confirmed that they're hearing the same noise. Their feedback also suggests that the circumstances are the same. One of the posters says he wrote to one of Germany's major Auto magazines about this problem - apparently they had just run an article on timing chain issues in Volkswagens.
> 
> Beyond that, not much in the way of updates from overseas. With one possible exception:
> 
> ...


 Honestly, your local dealer isn't going to innovate and figure out the engineering solution to this problem. The most important part (reporting the issue, the dealer reproducing it, and Audi Corporate being contacted) has been completed. 

The best way to get more traction from Audi on the issue is for every person that can reproduce this problem to take their car in to the dealer and get it reported. I'm going to do the same (I hope neonova6 does, too). I'm sure engineering resources at Audi to work on issues like this get prioritized based on the volume of complaints. 

If I were you, I'd go get your car back and start enjoying it! Audi is going to need to redesign the hydraulic tensioner system and/or guide system for the timing chain to really resolve this, so sit back and wait a year while that happens. :facepalm:


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> Honestly, your local dealer isn't going to innovate and figure out the engineering solution to this problem. The most important part (reporting the issue, the dealer reproducing it, and Audi Corporate being contacted) has been completed.
> 
> The best way to get more traction from Audi on the issue is for every person that can reproduce this problem to take their car in to the dealer and get it reported. I'm going to do the same (I hope neonova6 does, too). I'm sure engineering resources at Audi to work on issues like this get prioritized based on the volume of complaints.
> 
> If I were you, I'd go get your car back and start enjoying it! Audi is going to need to redesign the hydraulic tensioner system and/or guide system for the timing chain to really resolve this, so sit back and wait a year while that happens. :facepalm:


 I've been considering that route. But I decided to wait for the results for the timing chain replacements (i.e. another two weeks). Worst-case, the problem will continue to reproduce, but at least I'll have a new chain/etc. (I imagine the problem causes excessive wear, and after weeks of debugging, there's bound to be some fallout).


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## joshsmith (Apr 17, 2011)

Marty said:


> Just reproduced the problem! But it stopped before I could take a video.
> 
> My rattle happens right at 2200-2400 RPM, and is silent below that. I'll snag a video soon enough. It does not sound healthy at all, and is of course way more audible with the windows down.
> 
> ...


 Pretty sure that's the nosie mine makes..


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> I've been considering that route. But I decided to wait for the results for the timing chain replacements (i.e. another two weeks). Worst-case, the problem will continue to reproduce, but at least I'll have a new chain/etc. (I imagine the problem causes excessive wear, and after weeks of debugging, there's bound to be some fallout).


 I view major internal repairs like open-heart surgery: you really don't want to do it unless it's absolutely necessary, due to the risk of complications. 

Think about it this way: there isn't a single tech at your dealer that has ever taken apart the 2.5L TFSI engine. Do you want them learning for the first time on yours, for a repair that probably won't fix the problem? Re-sealing everything, setting the timing correctly, etc., isn't a totally trivial task. 

Now, if Audi comes back and says they have a revised piece of hardware that they believe fixes it, then that's another story... 

But it sounds like you're going to go with it. So neonova6 and I do appreciate that for when we take ours in for the same repair.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

joshsmith said:


> Pretty sure that's the nosie mine makes..


 Video, video! Let's build a library.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> I view major internal repairs like open-heart surgery: you really don't want to do it unless it's absolutely necessary, due to the risk of complications.
> 
> Think about it this way: there isn't a single tech at your dealer that has ever taken apart the 2.5L TFSI engine. Do you want them learning for the first time on yours, for a repair that probably won't fix the problem? Re-sealing everything, setting the timing correctly, etc., isn't a totally trivial task.
> 
> ...


 I generally look at it the same way, but given that my engine has already undergone work on the intake and had its turbo replaced, the timing chain replacement/adjustments feel more like an appendix removal following open heart surgery. If the engine developed chronic problems as a result of any of these modifications, I feel there'd be ways to address that situation. 

Besides, I still don't actually know for certain that the problem doesn't have potentially serious implications. I do want to know exactly what the problem is, at the very least to know how to avoid it reliably.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

The thread on tts-freunde.de seems to be getting off track slightly with posters arguing about different types of oil. 

But one poster claims that he used to have this problem, and that it went away when he started avoiding short drives (under 6 miles). Supposedly, an Audi expert asserted that short drives (which, according to Audi, is fewer than 30 miles) are problematic for this type of engine and should be avoided. Obviously, this is impractical, but the poster says that he hasn't had problems since extending the length of his commute to ~10 miles. A few other posters back this theory up, but offer no hard data. 

So now I'm curious: do those of you who do have the problem often drive only a few miles, and do those of you who do not have the problem hardly ever drive short routes?


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> The thread on tts-freunde.de seems to be getting off track slightly with posters arguing about different types of oil.
> 
> But one poster claims that he used to have this problem, and that it went away when he started avoiding short drives (under 6 miles). Supposedly, an Audi expert asserted that short drives (which, according to Audi, is fewer than 30 miles) are problematic for this type of engine and should be avoided. Obviously, this is impractical, but the poster says that he hasn't had problems since extending the length of his commute to ~10 miles. A few other posters back this theory up, but offer no hard data.
> 
> So now I'm curious: do those of you who do have the problem often drive only a few miles, and do those of you who do not have the problem hardly ever drive short routes?


 I drive about 7 miles between work and home. I wonder what he would mean by "this type of engine"? Is it really that much different from the other turbocharged Audi engines in terms of the chain tensioning system?


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> I drive about 7 miles between work and home. I wonder what he would mean by "this type of engine"? Is it really that much different from the other turbocharged Audi engines in terms of the chain tensioning system?


 They're referring to "Vollgasmotoren" (full-throttle engines), i.e. engines designed to be driven very hard regularly. 

I'm no stranger to the argument: the S5's 4.2l FSI is prone to carbon build-up, which causes progressive power loss (noticeable after ~15k miles) and, eventually, misfires (most commonly after ~30k miles); and this problem is aggravated if you have a short commute. 

If you read through the discussions about this topic on various forums, you'll find lots of assertions that the engine wasn't designed to be driven in city traffic, and that anyone who did so regularly was asking for trouble.


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## joshsmith (Apr 17, 2011)

Interestingly after I tied my exhaust flap open on the valve hose thingy, the noise is worse on my car and lasts longer... hmmm....


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## mtbscoTT (Jan 14, 2003)

fourtunes said:


> So now I'm curious: do those of you who do have the problem often drive only a few miles, and do those of you who do not have the problem hardly ever drive short routes?


 I do not have the noise and lots of my trips in the car are under 10 miles. My commute to work is 6 miles each way, and I go to lunch most days 6 miles or less roundtrip. Sorry for your problems but I don't think it's universal to the car.


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## jpkeyzer (Aug 24, 2011)

fourtunes said:


> I made a recording of the noise before I took the car in for the first time. I uploaded it here for those who want to sample it. This is what's captured:
> 
> Start, high idle: 00:08...
> Low idle: 1:08...
> ...


 fourtunes - thank you for taking the time and effort to record this! 

This will certainly benefit others (as a reference point) who may run into this issue. 

I (and I am sure others) feel your pain - this is by no means acceptable! 



mtbscoTT said:


> I do not have the noise and lots of my trips in the car are under 10 miles. My commute to work is 6 miles each way, and I go to lunch most days 6 miles or less roundtrip. Sorry for your problems but I don't think it's universal to the car.


 
This is a valid point - start looking into your rights as they relate to the "Lemon Law". 

After 2.5 months of TT-RS ownership and 2327 miles I have not experienced this problem.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Only 1 of my last 7 cold starts has reproduced this issue. And without carefully listening for it, you may not notice as it goes away within a minute. 

So I question whether anyone's car truly is immune to this, or if folks haven't caught it happening yet... 

Still patiently waiting to get it on video...


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## neonova6 (Aug 26, 2011)

Marty said:


> So neonova6 and I do appreciate that for when we take ours in for the same repair.


 I absolutely appreciate! I've been watching the thread like a hawk. 




fourtunes said:


> The thread on tts-freunde.de seems to be getting off track slightly with posters arguing about different types of oil.
> 
> But one poster claims that he used to have this problem, and that it went away when he started avoiding short drives (under 6 miles). Supposedly, an Audi expert asserted that short drives (which, according to Audi, is fewer than 30 miles) are problematic for this type of engine and should be avoided. Obviously, this is impractical, but the poster says that he hasn't had problems since extending the length of his commute to ~10 miles. A few other posters back this theory up, but offer no hard data.
> 
> So now I'm curious: do those of you who do have the problem often drive only a few miles, and do those of you who do not have the problem hardly ever drive short routes?


 That's interesting, but I don't by it. My commute is 30+miles one way, with maybe 1-3 short trips that are less than 3 miles on the weekends. More than once, I've heard the issue after starting the car when leaving work, where the last trip was my commute. Overall, the majority of my trips are over 30 miles. And even after a shorter trips, I have not heard the issue. So personally, I've not seen a correlation between a shorter or longer trip making the sound occur more frequently. 



fourtunes said:


> I've been considering that route. But I decided to wait for the results for the timing chain replacements (i.e. another two weeks). Worst-case, the problem will continue to reproduce, but at least I'll have a new chain/etc. (I imagine the problem causes excessive wear, and after weeks of debugging, there's bound to be some fallout).


 I hope that the service reps pay careful attention to any premature wear between the timing chain and all contact points.  

I'm still itching to get a video too.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Caught it! 

My car just reproduced the rattle (2nd time it made the noise out of 9 cold starts), but this time the car wasn't cold! The car had been sitting for about an hour, so the coolant temperature was at the 1/4 mark when I first started the car. 

The noise wasn't quite as violent as it's been at its worst with a cold start, but you can definitely hear it. Here's a video (you can hear it steadily decrease throughout the video, until it's completely gone by the end):


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

fourtunes said:


> I generally look at it the same way, but given that my engine has already undergone work on the intake and had its turbo replaced, the timing chain replacement/adjustments feel more like an appendix removal following open heart surgery. If the engine developed chronic problems as a result of any of these modifications, I feel there'd be ways to address that situation.
> 
> Besides, I still don't actually know for certain that the problem doesn't have potentially serious implications. I do want to know exactly what the problem is, at the very least to know how to avoid it reliably.


 I just got off the phone with my service adviser. 

Against expectations (mine, anyway), it looks like the ECU changes for the 2013 model year may have resolved the problem. Like I mentioned earlier, the firmware updates make adjustments to oil pressure settings. I haven't asked for details yet, but will do so later today. 

The dealership seems reasonably confident that this really is a solution because of experience with the old S4, which apparently also had timing chain related rattling problems (though not quite as pronounced) after cold starts. Those problems were addressed in a similar manner. 

I decided to reward the TT RS with an early oil change (since it's at the dealership anyway), but expect to pick it up later today. I'll keep you guys posted.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> I just got off the phone with my service adviser.
> 
> Against expectations (mine, anyway), it looks like the ECU changes for the 2013 model year may have resolved the problem. Like I mentioned earlier, the firmware updates make adjustments to oil pressure settings. I haven't asked for details yet, but will do so later today.
> 
> ...


 Did they mention when the 2013 changes would get rolled out?


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> Did they mention when the 2013 changes would get rolled out?


 No, but I'll ask.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

When it rains, it pours: here's a video of me reproducing the problem again this morning from a cold start (3rd time out of 10 starts). Even though it gets quieter as time goes on (the 2400 RPM resonance seems to die down), it still seems loud at higher RPM (though I didn't want to go higher while it was cold).


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## fjork_duf (Jul 13, 2001)

Wow... sounds pretty noticeable. Thanks guys for pushing this. So far I haven't heard it yet...


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## neonova6 (Aug 26, 2011)

Well, that's some good news. Did they still replace the timing chain as well? 



fourtunes said:


> I just got off the phone with my service adviser.
> 
> Against expectations (mine, anyway), it looks like the ECU changes for the 2013 model year may have resolved the problem. Like I mentioned earlier, the firmware updates make adjustments to oil pressure settings. I haven't asked for details yet, but will do so later today.
> 
> ...


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

neonova6 said:


> Well, that's some good news. Did they still replace the timing chain as well?


 No. The service records indicate that the order was cancelled. Anyway, I have the car back now and it doesn't seem much worse off for wear. Fingers crossed... 

As to the ECU update, it isn't clear if there's a plan to deploy it as a general update. If it really does end up solving my problem, you may want/need to work with your dealer to get the same update applied. I imagine that won't be a problem for anyone who visits the dealership I had my car serviced at.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> No. The service records indicate that the order was cancelled. Anyway, I have the car back now and it doesn't seem much worse off for wear. Fingers crossed...
> 
> As to the ECU update, it isn't clear if there's a plan to deploy it as a general update. If it really does end up solving my problem, you may want/need to work with your dealer to get the same update applied. I imagine that won't be a problem for anyone who visits the dealership I had my car serviced at.


 So did they actually update your ECU? Any mention of a version number on your paperwork?


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> So did they actually update your ECU?


 Yes, the service record lists an ECM update.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> So did they actually update your ECU? Any mention of a version number on your paperwork?


 I'll double-check tonight, but I don't believe a specific version was mentioned. My service adviser always referred to it as the 2013 model year ECU update. I guess I ought to be able to tell with VCDS?


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> I'll double-check tonight, but I don't believe a specific version was mentioned. My service adviser always referred to it as the 2013 model year ECU update. I guess I ought to be able to tell with VCDS?


 I'll poke around in VCDS later to see if I can find anything that resembles an ECU FW revision.


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

Wow, mine doesn't make that noise at all. I'm glad you guys recorded it for all of us. I hope the ECU update solves it.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Black BeauTTy said:


> Wow, mine doesn't make that noise at all. I'm glad you guys recorded it for all of us. I hope the ECU update solves it.


 Keep trying every morning! Mine sounds buttery smooth most of the time.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> I'll double-check tonight, but I don't believe a specific version was mentioned. My service adviser always referred to it as the 2013 model year ECU update. I guess I ought to be able to tell with VCDS?


 It's apparently very easy! Thanks to [email protected] for providing the link on how to check the ECU software revision here: http://www.goapr.com/support/boxcode.php 










I'm curious what your version # is now, fourtunes. APR mentioned that they've seen TT-RS software revisions of both S0010 and S0020 already. Maybe some folks' cars are already shipping with revised S0020 software.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> It's apparently very easy! Thanks to [email protected] for providing the link on how to check the ECU software revision here: http://www.goapr.com/support/boxcode.php
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 That's easy enough. I'll check tomorrow morning - there's no mention of the version on the service record. I head meant to check VCDS (look for fault codes, etc.) after work, but after more than a month with a 2 liter engine, I had to spend some quality time with the RS, first.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> That's easy enough. I'll check tomorrow morning - there's no mention of the version on the service record. I head meant to check VCDS (look for fault codes, etc.) after work, but after more than a month with a 2 liter engine, I had to spend some quality time with the RS, first.


 Just checked with VCDS: my car is running rev *0020*. I hope your rev is higher.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> Just checked with VCDS: my car is running rev *0020*. I hope your rev is higher.


 Interestingly, it isn't. It's 0010. It didn't occur to me to check yesterday, but I'm in a position to compare the versions before/after: the information is captured in the log file as part of VCDS's full fault-code scan, and I have one or two of those log files from before the ECU update. I'll take a look at that tonight. 

For what it's worth: I haven't heard the rattle since I got the car back. It has only seen two cold starts in that time, but two clean starts is good mileage already.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> Interestingly, it isn't. It's 0010.


 The plot thickens...


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> Interestingly, it isn't. It's 0010. It didn't occur to me to check yesterday, but I'm in a position to compare the versions before/after: the information is captured in the log file as part of VCDS's full fault-code scan, and I have one or two of those log files from before the ECU update. I'll take a look at that tonight.
> 
> For what it's worth: I haven't heard the rattle since I got the car back. It has only seen two cold starts in that time, but two clean starts is good mileage already.


 I spoke to my advisor at your dealer, and they suggested that it was actually more of a custom one-off program for your car (not a general update available to anyone that comes in). 

They said I'd have to bring my car in, they'd have to reproduce the issue, initiate interaction with Audi in Germany, and only then get instruction to put this custom program on the car. 

So maybe this is a "beta" of some sort that is built on the older 0010 program, but modified to try and tweak the oil pressure settings?


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Marty said:


> So maybe this is a "beta" of some sort that is built on the older 0010 program, but modified to try and tweak the oil pressure settings?


 I still don't follow how the ECU can control oil pressure. I thought it was a completely mechanical system driven off of the crankshaft.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

JohnLZ7W said:


> I still don't follow how the ECU can control oil pressure. I thought it was a completely mechanical system driven off of the crankshaft.


 I was assuming that there was a relief valve or other electromechanical control that could indirectly impact the pressure. But that is just an assumption on my part.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> I spoke to my advisor at your dealer, and they suggested that it was actually more of a custom one-off program for your car (not a general update available to anyone that comes in).
> 
> They said I'd have to bring my car in, they'd have to reproduce the issue, initiate interaction with Audi in Germany, and only then get instruction to put this custom program on the car.


 Interesting. Well, at least they'd probably start with the ECU change. 



Marty said:


> So maybe this is a "beta" of some sort that is built on the older 0010 program, but modified to try and tweak the oil pressure settings?


 /me shrugs. 

I'm sure they're not telling us the whole story, and there's no telling how accurate the pieces that are being shared really are.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> I was assuming that there was a relief valve or other electromechanical control that could indirectly impact the pressure. But that is just an assumption on my part.


 The description in the Self-Study Program 990713 document is somewhat unclear on this. It does show that the oil pump is driven mechanically, but it also states that the pump is self-regulating. The document mentions a variety of valves, so it doesn't seem hard to believe that there's relief valves or some other means to affect pressure.


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## DrDomm (Feb 16, 2003)

I'm due for 1st service soon. I'll have to mention this...afterall, I was the first person to notice this, but just got ignored. 

From 10/21/11...http://forums.fourtitude.com/showthread.php?5470164-TT-RS-gt-Querks-(Curious-if-others-have-noticed)



DrDomm said:


> Anyone hear a weird fan noise when applying throttle, shortly after a cold start? I get this all the time.


 Now, I'm even more hesitant to flash my ECU...


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

DrDomm said:


> I'm due for 1st service soon. I'll have to mention this...afterall, I was the first person to notice this, but just got ignored.
> 
> From 10/21/11...http://forums.fourtitude.com/showthread.php?5470164-TT-RS-gt-Querks-(Curious-if-others-have-noticed)
> 
> Now, I'm even more hesitant to flash my ECU...


 No kidding. If I had had to pay for the rattle debug effort, it would've proven a very costly experience. I'm not going to mess with the ECU.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

DrDomm said:


> Now, I'm even more hesitant to flash my ECU...


 Same here...


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

DrDomm said:


> I'm due for 1st service soon. I'll have to mention this...afterall, I was the first person to notice this, but just got ignored.
> 
> From 10/21/11...http://forums.fourtitude.com/showthread.php?5470164-TT-RS-gt-Querks-(Curious-if-others-have-noticed)
> 
> ...


 I'm sorry, did you say something?


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## audi_rs (Aug 7, 2005)

i dont think this problem is isolated to the tt-rs, my 3.2 vr6 MK2 TT makes the exact same noise. when the exhaust system is cold it emits a crazy raspy/rattling metal sound. it seems to disappear after the exhaust system really warms up. i have also found youtube videos of people with stock and aftermarket exhausts that still make this noise. 

here is a video with a 3.2 with an exhaust system. clearly looks like a cold start as he rolls out of the garage. thats the same noise my car makes and it sounds like its what the OP's car is doing too? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOykjzP9JzM 

sorry i only skimmed through the 4 pages, so i apologize if i missed something or am late to the party :wave:


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> I spoke to my advisor at your dealer, and they suggested that it was actually more of a custom one-off program for your car (not a general update available to anyone that comes in).
> 
> They said I'd have to bring my car in, they'd have to reproduce the issue, initiate interaction with Audi in Germany, and only then get instruction to put this custom program on the car.
> 
> So maybe this is a "beta" of some sort that is built on the older 0010 program, but modified to try and tweak the oil pressure settings?


 I took a look at the log file, and as I suspected, the ECU version doesn't appear to be limited to just the 4 digit code referenced above. 

Before (captured @ 832 miles): 

Address 01: Engine (CEP) Labels: 07K-907-404-CEP.clb


Part No SW: 8J0 907 404 Q HW: 8J0 907 404 M


Component: 2.5l R5/4V TFSI 0020


...​ 
After (captured @ 1416 miles): 

Address 01: Engine (CEP) Labels: None


Part No SW: 8J0 907 404 R HW: 8J0 907 404 M


Component: 2.5l R5/4V TFSI 0010


...​ 
As to status: 0/3 on the rattle front so far.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

audi_rs said:


> i dont think this problem is isolated to the tt-rs, my 3.2 vr6 MK2 TT makes the exact same noise. when the exhaust system is cold it emits a crazy raspy/rattling metal sound. it seems to disappear after the exhaust system really warms up. i have also found youtube videos of people with stock and aftermarket exhausts that still make this noise.
> 
> here is a video with a 3.2 with an exhaust system. clearly looks like a cold start as he rolls out of the garage. thats the same noise my car makes and it sounds like its what the OP's car is doing too?
> 
> ...


 That doesn't sound like the rattle we're talking about. In our case, the noise comes from the engine itself (from the transmission side).


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> I took a look at the log file, and as I suspected, the ECU version doesn't appear to be limited to just the 4 digit code referenced above.
> 
> Before (captured @ 832 miles):
> 
> ...


 It looks like you used to have rev 0020, and now you have rev 0010. According to APR, these are the software rev's (while the other numbers are ECU box codes). 

APR also said that they've seen US TT-RS' with both rev 0020 and 0010.


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## audi_rs (Aug 7, 2005)

fourtunes said:


> That doesn't sound like the rattle we're talking about. In our case, the noise comes from the engine itself (from the transmission side).


 thank you for clarifying that. i feel my problem is related to exhaust so i will start to replace exhaust components. 

Good luck to the op, hope he gets sorted 

cheers :beer:


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## DrDomm (Feb 16, 2003)

Black BeauTTy said:


> I'm sorry, did you say something?


 LOL.

I'm so bummed not to come to the GTG...


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> It looks like you used to have rev 0020, and now you have rev 0010. According to APR, these are the software rev's (while the other numbers are ECU box codes).
> 
> APR also said that they've seen US TT-RS' with both rev 0020 and 0010.


 Take a look at the _Part No SW_ field. The last digit changed from _Q_ to _R_.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> Take a look at the _Part No SW_ field. The last digit changed from _Q_ to _R_.


 Good catch... I wonder what that means.


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

Just ran mine...0020 for me and I was a very early delivery.


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

DrDomm said:


> LOL.
> 
> I'm so bummed not to come to the GTG...


 We'll make it happen another time. You can count it!


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

fourtunes said:


> I took a look at the log file, and as I suspected, the ECU version doesn't appear to be limited to just the 4 digit code referenced above.
> 
> Before (captured @ 832 miles):
> 
> ...


The good news is that the chain rattle hasn't reproduced since I got the car back. This means nearly 10 cold starts without problems - unprecedented for my car (at least over the last two months), and thus encouraging.

The bad news is that the oil level warning came on just before I got home yesterday. I checked the level and found the engine to be bone dry. Now, since I had had the oil changed before I took the car back on Tuesday, this means that either the dealership didn't get the oil change right (which seems unlikely), or that the TT-RS went through all of its oil in ~130 miles. Neither leaves me with a warm fuzzy feeling.

So I had a nice walk to the nearest gas station, topped off the oil and checked for leaks last night. Since I couldn't find anything obvious, I dropped the car off again this morning and asked the dealership to take a look.

Life with an Audi sure isn't boring. Another day, another problem...


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## mtbscoTT (Jan 14, 2003)

If you burned through all of your oil in 130 miles, you would have looked like a fogger going down the street...I think you would have noticed. Seems more likely to me that whomever did the oil change didn't put the right amount in.


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

mtbscoTT said:


> If you burned through all of your oil in 130 miles, you would have looked like a fogger going down the street...I think you would have noticed. Seems more likely to me that whomever did the oil change didn't put the right amount in.


Maybe that's the fix for the rattle... drain a couple quarts of oil out


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

mtbscoTT said:


> If you burned through all of your oil in 130 miles, you would have looked like a fogger going down the street...I think you would have noticed. Seems more likely to me that whomever did the oil change didn't put the right amount in.


Agreed; neither option seemed likely.

Incidentally, the screw-up really is what happened. The tech responsible apparently filled in the amount needed for the TTS, but the TTRS engine needs an additional 2 1/2 quarts (which, incidentally, is what I had to add yesterday). The dealership apologized and I was assured that from now on, only select techs get to work on my car(s).

So for anyone going in for their first service: it might be a good idea to remind the dealership that the 2.5l TFSI is not a 2.0l TFSI.


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## neonova6 (Aug 26, 2011)

fourtunes said:


> Agreed; neither option seemed likely.
> 
> Incidentally, the screw-up really is what happened. The tech responsible apparently filled in the amount needed for the TTS, but the TTRS engine needs an additional 2 1/2 quarts (which, incidentally, is what I had to add yesterday). The dealership apologized and I was assured that from now on, only select techs get to work on my car(s).
> 
> So for anyone going in for their first service: it might be a good idea to remind the dealership that the 2.5l TFSI is not a 2.0l TFSI.


That just sounds like blatant disregard for an oil change procedure. At least you weren't in the middle of a long road trip. 

That's great news about ECU flash fixing the problem. Let's all cross our fingers it continues to hold.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

neonova6 said:


> That just sounds like blatant disregard for an oil change procedure. At least you weren't in the middle of a long road trip.


I'll be double-checking the oil level after services and always have a quart or two of oil in the car from now on, that's for sure. I wasn't in the middle of a road trip, and last night was well suited for a 4 1/2 mile hike, but it was still annoying and entirely unnecessary. You'd think one would spend two minutes to check the oil level with the dip stick when working on a new engine for the first time.

Oh well, I'm just glad it was human error and not another problem with this car.



neonova6 said:


> That's great news about ECU flash fixing the problem. Let's all cross our fingers it continues to hold.


Yes, that fix still looks like it's holding up fine.


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## DrDomm (Feb 16, 2003)

Now that I see all the interest in this rattle, I've been able to easily reproduce it despite our relatively warm weather lately. It's totally consistent with what others are saying. Allow the car to sit for a few hours. If it starts with a high idle, rev to 2200-2400, and it's there.

I've schedule my first service appointment, and have forwarded one of Marty's videos to my dealer. Spoke with the service manager today, and he didn't seem surprised there was an issue.

Fourtunes, who's your dealer? Maybe I should have mine call them.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

JohnLZ7W said:


> Maybe that's the fix for the rattle... drain a couple quarts of oil out


LOL! Maybe so.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

DrDomm said:


> Now that I see all the interest in this rattle, I've been able to easily reproduce it despite our relatively warm weather lately. It's totally consistent with what others are saying. Allow the car to sit for a few hours. If it starts with a high idle, rev to 2200-2400, and it's there.
> 
> I've schedule my first service appointment, and have forwarded one of Marty's videos to my dealer. Spoke with the service manager today, and he didn't seem surprised there was an issue.
> 
> Fourtunes, who's your dealer? Maybe I should have mine call them.


Audi Stevens Creek in San Jose. The service manager is aware of the problem, so if your dealer needs more information, that's probably the best point of contact.


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## DrDomm (Feb 16, 2003)

fourtunes said:


> Audi Stevens Creek in San Jose. The service manager is aware of the problem, so if your dealer needs more information, that's probably the best point of contact.


Thanks. And I've realized it has nothing to do with the "high idle". If the car sits for a few hours, but not long enough to restart with high idle, it will still rattle briefly.

Here's a quick video I made in my dark garage last night. It's easiest to hear by keeping the driver's door open.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> Audi Stevens Creek in San Jose. The service manager is aware of the problem, so if your dealer needs more information, that's probably the best point of contact.


I'm taking my car in next week. They say they have to reproduce the problem before they can give me the update. I hope that doesn't take a month....


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> I'm taking my car in next week. They say they have to reproduce the problem before they can give me the update. I hope that doesn't take a month....


I doubt it. Once I managed to convince them there was a legitimate problem (there always is some amount of skepticism to overcome), they didn't have a hard time reproducing the problem consistently. Chances are they'll let your car sit outside overnight, then start it up, rev it well past 2000 RPM and let the throttle go. That's how they got the rattle consistently in my case.

And I'm happy to report that the ECU fix still looks solid. I'm back to enjoying the RS - I've put a little over 200 miles on it since Tuesday.


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

so i did the high idle test today, i didn't hear anything out of the ordinary, however the engine starts to vibrate the car around the rpm everyone is referring too, so i would think the two are related however mine isn't making any noise, it's almost as though there is an imbalance inside somewhere exactly at that rpm... i am not too concerned and i didnt check if it keeps happening once fully warmed up


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## mkauzer (Apr 27, 2011)

Yep. Inside the garage with door closed does it. Noise is huge. Mine gets reported Monday.



DrDomm said:


> Thanks. And I've realized it has nothing to do with the "high idle". If the car sits for a few hours, but not long enough to restart with high idle, it will still rattle briefly.
> 
> Here's a quick video I made in my dark garage last night. It's easiest to hear by keeping the driver's door open.


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## DrDomm (Feb 16, 2003)

Incidentally, my car didn't make that noise when cold this morning. Crazy.


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## mkauzer (Apr 27, 2011)

*TTRS engine rasp*

Captured again this morning. You can definitely hear the rasp disappear at about 0:22


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

mkauzer said:


> Captured again this morning. You can definitely hear the rasp disappear at about 0:22


Yep, that's it.


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## DrDomm (Feb 16, 2003)

Marty said:


> Yep, that's it.


Exactly. It's an epidemic!


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## mkauzer (Apr 27, 2011)

Thanks to fortunes and Darren at Stevens Creek of San Jose for doing the heavy lifting. Concord Audi was of little help as they had no insight into our problem. From Darren: Audi engineers have determined that no damage is being done and they'll have a ECU flash to tweak oil pressure within weeks. Just in case I'll allow 40 secs. before "take-off" in the morning. I sensed a real interest from Darren. Looking forward to traveling down there for the flash.



mkauzer said:


> Captured again this morning. You can definitely hear the rasp disappear at about 0:22


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

mkauzer said:


> Thanks to fortunes and Darren at Stevens Creek of San Jose for doing the heavy lifting. Concord Audi was of little help as they had no insight into our problem. From Darren: Audi engineers have determined that no damage is being done and they'll have a ECU flash to tweak oil pressure within weeks. Just in case I'll allow 40 secs. before "take-off" in the morning. I sensed a real interest from Darren. Looking forward to traveling down there for the flash.


Thanks for the update. Hopefully the ECU flash will resolve the problem for you guys, as well. I've fallen back to my old cadence of 1) turn on ignition, 2) wait a few seconds, 3) start engine, 4) wait ~80 seconds and 5) drive off. And I still haven't had any rattles since last Tuesday.


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## DrDomm (Feb 16, 2003)

mkauzer said:


> Thanks to fortunes and Darren at Stevens Creek of San Jose for doing the heavy lifting. Concord Audi was of little help as they had no insight into our problem. From Darren: Audi engineers have determined that no damage is being done and they'll have a ECU flash to tweak oil pressure within weeks. Just in case I'll allow 40 secs. before "take-off" in the morning. I sensed a real interest from Darren. Looking forward to traveling down there for the flash.


Mine is at the dealer for the second day as they await Audi technical support to provide them with the updated ECU flash.

I asked the rep to find out what exactly the flash does and why, but I'm skeptical I'll get a detailed explanation. If it raises oil pressure, why was it low to begin with? How does it raise oil pressure? Does this affect performance in any way? 

Of course Audi is gonna say there was no damage done during the months of this issue. I hope they are truthful (in their engineering).


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

DrDomm said:


> Mine is at the dealer for the second day as they await Audi technical support to provide them with the updated ECU flash.
> 
> I asked the rep to find out what exactly the flash does and why, but I'm skeptical I'll get a detailed explanation. If it raises oil pressure, why was it low to begin with? How does it raise oil pressure? Does this affect performance in any way?
> 
> Of course Audi is gonna say there was no damage done during the months of this issue. I hope they are truthful (in their engineering).


I was told the oil pressure adjustment only applied to the first few minutes of operation, during which the oil pressure was originally kept lower (maybe to account for differences in viscosity?). I doubt we'll ever know exactly what was changed, what the implications are, etc..


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

DrDomm said:


> Mine is at the dealer for the second day as they await Audi technical support to provide them with the updated ECU flash.
> 
> I asked the rep to find out what exactly the flash does and why, but I'm skeptical I'll get a detailed explanation. If it raises oil pressure, why was it low to begin with? How does it raise oil pressure? Does this affect performance in any way?
> 
> Of course Audi is gonna say there was no damage done during the months of this issue. I hope they are truthful (in their engineering).


Mine is at the dealer for the 2nd day as well.

I was told that the software can control some orifice opening in the oil circulation path (which regulates flow), and that the reflash opens this up more when the car is cold to get oil to the tensioning system more quickly.

But I have no idea how correct that description really is... I was hoping to find some technical docs somewhere on the car that described this oil control system.


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## fjork_duf (Jul 13, 2001)

Marty said:


> I was told that the software can control some orifice opening in the oil circulation path....


I think that technically is called the 'oil sphincter'


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## mkauzer (Apr 27, 2011)

Marty, what dealership are you using?



Marty said:


> Mine is at the dealer for the 2nd day as well.
> 
> I was told that the software can control some orifice opening in the oil circulation path (which regulates flow), and that the reflash opens this up more when the car is cold to get oil to the tensioning system more quickly.
> 
> But I have no idea how correct that description really is... I was hoping to find some technical docs somewhere on the car that described this oil control system.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

mkauzer said:


> Marty, what dealership are you using?


Same as fourtunes: Stevens Creek Audi.


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## jpkeyzer (Aug 24, 2011)

Fellow TT-RS enthusiasts,

I ran into this issue this morning!

After contacting Audi Stevens Creek in San Jose, CA (who assisted the very first customer with this problem), I discovered the following:

- this is a non-critical issue (it does not negatively impact the engine or its performance in any way) and is really more of an annoyance than anything else.

- for engine break-in purposes, the engine runs at full oil pressure for the first 1000 kilometers (or 621 miles).

- after this, for emission and fuel economy purposes, the oil pressure is varied on demand.

- this issue is being caused by an internal tensioner vibrating because of lowered oil pressure.

- the ECU update addresses the lowered oil pressure and resolves the issue.

- at some point in the future, Audi will release this ECU software update via a service bulletin.

I hope this helps.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

jpkeyzer said:


> Fellow TT-RS enthusiasts,
> - for engine break-in purposes, the engine runs at full oil pressure for the first 1000 kilometers (or 621 miles).


Ah, that finally explains why none of us noticed that problem at first.


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## DrDomm (Feb 16, 2003)

fourtunes said:


> Ah, that finally explains why none of noticed that problem at first.


Information...what a novelty.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

jpkeyzer said:


> Fellow TT-RS enthusiasts,
> 
> I ran into this issue this morning!
> 
> ...


Great info! Who specifically did you talk to at Stevens Creek about this?

I hope the future update isn't yet another change, so the few of us that are proactive aren't running some weird beta interim program.

An oil pressure gage would have been super useful for seeing what's happening before and after the changes.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> Ah, that finally explains why none of noticed that problem at first.


Excellent point!


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## jpkeyzer (Aug 24, 2011)

Marty said:


> Great info! Who specifically did you talk to at Stevens Creek about this?


Daren Ferguson, the Parts & Service Director.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

jpkeyzer said:


> Daren Ferguson, the Parts & Service Director.


Yours isn't the black TT-RS I see there every now and then, is it?


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## jpkeyzer (Aug 24, 2011)

Marty said:


> Yours isn't the black TT-RS I see there every now and then, is it?


Mine is black, but situated on the opposite coast.


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## DrDomm (Feb 16, 2003)

Picked my car up Wednesday evening, after being flashed with the updated software. No improvement in the chain sound yesterday morning or this morning. Oh well.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

DrDomm said:


> Picked my car up Wednesday evening, after being flashed with the updated software. No improvement in the chain sound yesterday morning or this morning. Oh well.


That's not good. Did you check the program revision with VCDS? I just picked mine up this morning and I'll check it tonight.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

Marty said:


> That's not good. Did you check the program revision with VCDS? I just picked mine up this morning and I'll check it tonight.


I'd be curious about the version, as well. I know it won't help you, but I haven't heard any more rattling since the update - and it's been nearly two weeks. I'm confident the problem has been addressed with the ECU update in my car.

Marty, have you checked if your ECU's version matches mine post-update?


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

fourtunes said:


> Marty, have you checked if your ECU's version matches mine post-update?


Confirmed: I went from Q-0020 to R-0010.


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## DrDomm (Feb 16, 2003)

Marty said:


> That's not good. Did you check the program revision with VCDS? I just picked mine up this morning and I'll check it tonight.


I don't have VCDS. Hmm, maybe I will ask the dealer to double check next week.


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## DrDomm (Feb 16, 2003)

My dealer printed out the data after Audi did the remote software upgrade. It shows a software version of V19.36.00. They told me that's the latest software. I don't see an R-0010 anywhere, but under "01-Engine Electronics", the last line does say "0010". I'm assuming this is the correct software. Sadly, it didn't resolve my rattle.

Incidentally, the Audi Technical rep told my dealer's mechanic to hold the cruise contol button for 10 seconds to see if there was an ECU flash...apparently from APR. Kinda funny.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

DrDomm said:


> My dealer printed out the data after Audi did the remote software upgrade. It shows a software version of V19.36.00. They told me that's the latest software. I don't see an R-0010 anywhere, but under "01-Engine Electronics", the last line does say "0010". I'm assuming this is the correct software. Sadly, it didn't resolve my rattle.


Here's the top line of mine in VCDS prior to update: 










And after update:












DrDomm said:


> Incidentally, the Audi Technical rep told my dealer's mechanic to hold the cruise contol button for 10 seconds to see if there was an ECU flash...apparently from APR. Kinda funny.


Haha! Sneaky. APR says that the TT-RS ECU doesn't currently fall under the auto-scan for reflashes umbrella (resulting in a "TD1" warranty marker if flagged). So maybe they're checking manually via the stalk.

But if you use the APR security lock-out feature, is there any way to tell that there is an APR tune on the car by playing with the cruise control stalk if you don't know the passcode? My impression was no, but if APR did something like flash the CEL to indicate some mode then they might give it away.


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

On that note, is the APR ECU tune going to pick up the oil pressure fixes for this issue?


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## DrDomm (Feb 16, 2003)

Here's what mine says after the "fix":

*01-Engine Electronics*
8J0907404R
2.5l R5/4V TFSI
Coding Long
Dealer number 08105
8J0907404M
H05
0010

Now, the first and the last lines of that line up with what Marty's saying. I'm not sure where the "M" comes from. Oh well. Anyway, my service manager and the mechanic both got the impression that this was only a temporary fix from Audi, and that there will be a recall with both hardware and software involved.


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## J662 (Dec 8, 2011)

DrDomm said:


> Picked my car up Wednesday evening, after being flashed with the updated software. No improvement in the chain sound yesterday morning or this morning. Oh well.


 I started my car yesterday evening I noticed that chain sound for the first time. It was brief but it was there. I have 1300 miles on my car. Doesn't seem like its causing problems so I'm not going to do anything until Audi comes up with a tsb or recall. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DrDomm (Feb 16, 2003)

J662 said:


> I started my car yesterday evening I noticed that chain sound for the first time. It was brief but it was there. I have 1300 miles on my car. Doesn't seem like its causing problems so I'm not going to do anything until Audi comes up with a tsb or recall.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 You didn't have the new software installed, right? I agree with you. Audi states there is no harm to internal components. Now my concern is if they will issue a recall/TSB and have new software and even hardware. Time will tell.


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## J662 (Dec 8, 2011)

DrDomm said:


> You didn't have the new software installed, right? I agree with you. Audi states there is no harm to internal components. Now my concern is if they will issue a recall/TSB and have new software and even hardware. Time will tell.


 Correct, I didn't have the new software installed nor have I brought up the issue to service dept. If there is a recall there we be at least a clear path for the fix, instead of the dealership going through trial and error etc. that is always a nightmare as some have experienced with this chain issue. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## neonova6 (Aug 26, 2011)

Captured a decent reproduction of mine. I'll take this and show Audi at my 5k coming up if a few weeks. Not sure if the ECU flash is worth it, if it's not going to absolutely fix the problem. I guess well see what the service rep recommends...


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

can def hear that!

i have 8k km on mine and it never happened once...


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## neonova6 (Aug 26, 2011)

*"Fix" released by Audi.*

So I got a call from my service rep yesterday informing me of the new ECU flash for the TTRS regarding this timing chain rattle on cold starts. So I guess that means it's officially release by Audi. I'll take mine in next Monday. Anyone else get a call from their service reps recently?


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

neonova6 said:


> So I got a call from my service rep yesterday informing me of the new ECU flash for the TTRS regarding this timing chain rattle on cold starts. So I guess that means it's officially release by Audi. I'll take mine in next Monday. Anyone else get a call from their service reps recently?


Oooh I'm curious if it's different than the "beta" firmware that they flashed on our cars a few months ago. Please check version numbers in VCDS before and after!


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## YYC Dubber (Jun 23, 2011)

neonova6 said:


> So I got a call from my service rep yesterday informing me of the new ECU flash for the TTRS regarding this timing chain rattle on cold starts. So I guess that means it's officially release by Audi. I'll take mine in next Monday. Anyone else get a call from their service reps recently?


I went in two weeks ago asking about it myself and no one at Audi Canada had heard of it.... anyone else?


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## Koa1 (Feb 21, 2012)

Just found this thread after hearing the rattle on my unmodded TTRS for the first time this morning. 3700 miles on mine. Definitely freaked me out. Thanks to all who took the time to capture theirs on video. I will definitely take mine to a dealer to document the problem and add more incentive for audi to address the issue.


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## neonova6 (Aug 26, 2011)

Koa1 said:


> Just found this thread after hearing the rattle on my unmodded TTRS for the first time this morning. 3700 miles on mine. Definitely freaked me out. Thanks to all who took the time to capture theirs on video. I will definitely take mine to a dealer to document the problem and add more incentive for audi to address the issue.


Audi already has a "fix" in order, which is simply updating the ECU with ( likely other things as well ) modified oil pressures to adjust the timing chain tensioner. I mentioned it to my service advisor at the 5k service, and they called me last week to inform me of the new ECU software. 

I got mine back Tuesday of this week ( July 17th ). This morning, after a cold start, I could still hear the tensioner rattle when not moving and revving the engine. However, it was drastically reduced in volume; much quieter, and likely, I would have missed it, had I not know what sound to listen for. Additionally, prior to the flash, the rattle could be heard while driving, in first/second/third gear when the engine RPM was around 2k. After the flash, I could not hear the rattle under the same conditions. But this is only after limited exposure to cold starts with the new software. I'll be sure to report back again in a few weeks, after I've been through some more cold starts. I'm not 100% convinced this new Audi software has fully addressed the issue. 

I would say, so far, the noise is much more tolerable then before. It may just be a nuance of all engines with timing chains? I seem to remember someone mentioning that the S5's/TTS's/VW GTI's were making similar noises.


Edit: Marty came over and with his VAGCOM and verified my version number, which was originally Q pre-flash, and is currently R post flash. This matches the "beta" version that was flashed to his RS sometime back. Didn't see any other changes in revision numbers either. So it looks like Audi is simply updating the software to the 2013 version. Thanks again Marty!


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

neonova6 said:


> Edit: Marty came over and with his VAGCOM and verified my version number, which was originally Q pre-flash, and is currently R post flash. This matches the "beta" version that was flashed to his RS sometime back. Didn't see any other changes in revision numbers either. So it looks like Audi is simply updating the software to the 2013 version. Thanks again Marty!


No problem. Yep, it looks like all of us with the "beta" flash don't need to go in for an update!


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## twin__turbo (Apr 12, 2012)

Has Audi released an actual TSB for this problem yet? I would love to have it in hand when I go in for service. I have been waiting to install the APR tune until this problem has been resolved. Maybe APR already has the updated software in their tune. Can anyone with the APR tune confirm this? Thanks in advance.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

Marty said:


> Haha! Sneaky. APR says that the TT-RS ECU doesn't currently fall under the auto-scan for reflashes umbrella (resulting in a "TD1" warranty marker if flagged). So maybe they're checking manually via the stalk.
> 
> But if you use the APR security lock-out feature, is there any way to tell that there is an APR tune on the car by playing with the cruise control stalk if you don't know the passcode? My impression was no, but if APR did something like flash the CEL to indicate some mode then they might give it away.


 Security lockout disables any indication of programming existing anywhere unless your code is entered. Any if clause you can come up with that could maybe result in someone finding it while locked we've already thought of and made sure you can (unless you guess the code, which is like guessing someones ATM pin number). ; )


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## mad chemist (Aug 25, 2012)

*Possible TTRS timing chain rattle in the UK*

Hi guys,

Have a MRC re-mapped RS (one of the first and best Audi tuners in the UK) and had the rattle before the re-map ~ 1500 miles. Car drives fine, but the rattle comes and goes depending on day of the week. I can't say I've notised it being worse from a cold start. In fact it has sometimes appeared after a hard run and 10-s of miles.

If the software fix helps, I guess I'll have to go back to my tuner and get my car re-flashed, probably bringing the noise back again. Catch 22??

I think as the car has been running without any other issues for the last 14 months, I may just try and live with this rattle for now.

Cheers,

Mad.


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## DrDomm (Feb 16, 2003)

mad chemist said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Have a MRC re-mapped RS (one of the first and best Audi tuners in the UK) and had the rattle before the re-map ~ 1500 miles. Car drives fine, but the rattle comes and goes depending on day of the week. I can't say I've notised it being worse from a cold start. In fact it has sometimes appeared after a hard run and 10-s of miles.
> 
> ...


Don't bother with the update. It didn't fix my rattle, and apparently it isn't a big deal.


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## mad chemist (Aug 25, 2012)

DrDomm said:


> Don't bother with the update. It didn't fix my rattle, and apparently it isn't a big deal.


I'm not sure if my car is having this issue as it does not seem to be related to cold starts. I'm beginning to think it may be heat shield resonance or even related to the turbo re-circulation valve.

Anyway, have you re-mapped your RS yet? You should as it absolutely transforms the car.

Cheers,

Mad.


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## mad chemist (Aug 25, 2012)

I may have sorted this.

I separated the heat shield around the transmission (just under/behind the air-box) from the heat shield covering the bulkhead and running over the clutch cable, and no metalic rattle this afternoon. The noise was worse when the car was hot/been running for a while, which presubaly may have caused the metal heat shileds to expand and touch. I really hope I've sorted this is as the other possibility of it being the timing chain tensioner does sound more serious to me..

Mad.


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## joshsmith (Apr 17, 2011)

Took mine in for first service. It has Audi SERIOUSLY concerned.. I had the ECU update and it didn't do much; made it slightly smoother. Still VERY apparent on cold starts.. Audi's main concern is they cannot work out what the issue is and will be keeping it for a while..

They believe it could be an oil pressure issue on cold start in that oil isn't reaching the top of the engine properly.. Having said that - there are absolutely no faults showing when they plug in the computer and everything appears to be at the right pressure etc.. A mate of mine who works at Ferrari reckons it could be an oil TYPE, I think he said it could've been too thick or thin or something (cant' remember) and thus causing a lack in oil pressure as it sounds consistent with that.

Also there has been a squeeking noise from my front left that they also cannot work out what it is.. Audi has been great but I'm getting the ****s with the car as it's a lot of money here in Aus and sh*t like that shouldn't be an issue.

Anyway; time will tell


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

joshsmith said:


> They believe it could be an oil pressure issue on cold start in that oil isn't reaching the top of the engine properly.. Having said that - there are absolutely no faults showing when they plug in the computer and everything appears to be at the right pressure etc.. A mate of mine who works at Ferrari reckons it could be an oil TYPE, I think he said it could've been too thick or thin or something (cant' remember) and thus causing a lack in oil pressure as it sounds consistent with that.


Wasn't this already root caused? Audi stated that the issue was not enough oil pressure at startup so the timing chain tensioner allows some slack and you get the rattle. The issue isn't present when the car is new because the ECU runs the oil pressure higher thru the first 1000 miles or so and then once it switches to normal programming this problem arises. They had an ECU update available for US customers that was supposed to run the oil pressure the same as break-in mode. This worked for some folks but not others.


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## nj_v-dub (Aug 27, 2008)

Will inquire about this at Jack Daniel's to see what they respond at this stage of the game.


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## michalborz (May 14, 2004)

Just a heads up with a APR tune DO NOT go to a dealer for update unless you flash back to stuck first trust me


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

michalborz said:


> Just a heads up with a APR tune DO NOT go to a dealer for update unless you flash back to stuck first trust me


Oh come on, you can't go posting something like that without further explanation. Did you get TD1'd?


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## michalborz (May 14, 2004)

JohnLZ7W said:


> Oh come on, you can't go posting something like that without further explanation. Did you get TD1'd?


No TD1, but after update you will get "Engine ECU check sum error" and on dashboard each time you start car for first 3 sec. message appears "engine management fault"


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## Koa1 (Feb 21, 2012)

Bummer. I had just made the decision to go with the APR stage 1. Thanks for the info i guess I'll wait to see how APR responds to this development.


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## nj_v-dub (Aug 27, 2008)

went to Jack Daniels where I bought car and they claim there is no such update.  ANYONE DONE IN THE NYC TRI-STATE AREA? either they are not aware of the issues that arise or playing stupid, if I find a friendlier dealer, won't go back.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

michalborz said:


> No TD1, but after update you will get "Engine ECU check sum error" and on dashboard each time you start car for first 3 sec. message appears "engine management fault"


Hopefully re flashing the APR tune will fix that... 

Does anyone know of an OBDII port lock? I paid for the maintenance upfront to help with resale value by ensuring that there would be a record of at least the minimum maintenance being done (I also change the oil at 5k intervals between dealer visits). It would be good to make sure the dealer can't flash the car without my express permission... 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


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## michalborz (May 14, 2004)

nj_v-dub said:


> went to Jack Daniels where I bought car and they claim there is no such update. ANYONE DONE IN THE NYC TRI-STATE AREA? either they are not aware of the issues that arise or playing stupid, if I find a friendlier dealer, won't go back.


Go to Bell Audi in Edison on road US1 they know about the update. That's when I got nine done.


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## [email protected] (Jul 29, 2008)

michalborz said:


> No TD1, but after update you will get "Engine ECU check sum error" and on dashboard each time you start car for first 3 sec. message appears "engine management fault"


If you go back to the APR dealer and get flashed with the updated software, this error will go away.

Also, all ECU updates going forward should not have this error. So if you flash your car with APR software today, for the first time, and get the update from Audi, you will not get a checksum error like above.


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## nj_v-dub (Aug 27, 2008)

thanks michalborz, I'll give them a call.


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## twin__turbo (Apr 12, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> If you go back to the APR dealer and get flashed with the updated software, this error will go away.
> 
> Also, all ECU updates going forward should not have this error. So if you flash your car with APR software today, for the first time, and get the update from Audi, you will not get a checksum error like above.


We will still need another reflash from APR afterwards, right?


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

updates?


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## twin__turbo (Apr 12, 2012)

tdi-bart said:


> updates?


I had my car flashed with the oil pump update a few weeks ago. I also had the tranny mount replaced under TSB after I read another thread about them cracking and/or breaking. My engine noise is almost completely gone. I hear it once in a while (I think). When it happens, it is not as loud as before and it doesn't make the noise nearly as often.


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

interesting thread. I havebeen having a problem with a noise when I startin the morning and also what I thinkis a wastegate noise under acceleration. It appears that I have one of the problems identified.
Twin Turbo, looks like we have similar taste ins cars. I had a 2008 335i Dinan Stage 2 also and have a TT RS now. Miss the 335i.


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## twin__turbo (Apr 12, 2012)

Hey Quisp, miss mine too. The torque was awesome! I love the M3 but it needs more torque. I plan to do APR Stage 2 to the TT RS. That should staisfy my torque needs...


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

OK, took my car in for this noise, the dealership was able to duplicate it and the diagnosis is not timing chain, they are attributing it to the exhaust. More specifically the flaps by the downpipes. They have a new TTRS there which they fired up for comparison and said it makes the same noise bnut not as badly. They are pulling the exhaust to see if it is serviceable.
Here is a link to a video of the sound, It is pretty clear when it happens and it kept going for a minute plus. Then when i drove away it did it again.

http://s1164.photobucket.com/albums/q574/quisp13/?action=view&current=MAH00130.mp4

I will let you know what happens.


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

Interesting, I wasn't aware there were flaps by the DP. Are they the reason why the car gets ever so slightly louder when you put the clutch in at a stop? It sounds like something is opening up when you depress the clutch. I never knew what to attribute that to.


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## J662 (Dec 8, 2011)

Quisp said:


> OK, took my car in for this noise, the dealership was able to duplicate it and the diagnosis is not timing chain, they are attributing it to the exhaust. More specifically the flaps by the downpipes. They have a new TTRS there which they fired up for comparison and said it makes the same noise bnut not as badly. They are pulling the exhaust to see if it is serviceable.
> Here is a link to a video of the sound, It is pretty clear when it happens and it kept going for a minute plus. Then when i drove away it did it again.
> 
> http://s1164.photobucket.com/albums/q574/quisp13/?action=view&current=MAH00130.mp4
> ...


This is not the exhaust. It's timing chain related.


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## J662 (Dec 8, 2011)

JohnLZ7W said:


> Wasn't this already root caused? Audi stated that the issue was not enough oil pressure at startup so the timing chain tensioner allows some slack and you get the rattle. The issue isn't present when the car is new because the ECU runs the oil pressure higher thru the first 1000 miles or so and then once it switches to normal programming this problem arises. They had an ECU update available for US customers that was supposed to run the oil pressure the same as break-in mode. This worked for some folks but not others.


Exactly.


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Quisp said:


> OK, took my car in for this noise, the dealership was able to duplicate it and the diagnosis is not timing chain, they are attributing it to the exhaust. More specifically the flaps by the downpipes.
> 
> I will let you know what happens.


What flaps? There are flaps in the runners on the intake manifold for cold start, there's a flap at the tailpipe for sport mode, but have never heard of or seen flaps at the downpipe. Unless maybe they're talking about the wastegate but someone already went down that path, think they even had their turbo replaced and it didn't fix anything.


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

Thats what the dealer told me. I even said that i thought it was the timing chain and they said it was not and I was very specific about where the noise was coming from and rhey said yes, the front of the car and that there are flaps in the exhaust at the downpipe. Not sure but looking for an engine diagram to verify if anyone has onel


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

Quisp said:


> Thats what the dealer told me. I even said that i thought it was the timing chain and they said it was not and I was very specific about where the noise was coming from and rhey said yes, the front of the car and that there are flaps in the exhaust at the downpipe. Not sure but looking for an engine diagram to verify if anyone has onel


The only flap is the internal wastegate of the turbo. There are pictures floating around where 996cab (?) knocked out his cat from the stock down pipe showing that there aren't any flaps in the exhaust near the engine.


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

That is what i thought(and was affraid of). I know that it is not the flap in the back of the exhaust. It sounds like a wastegate but it would not flap if the car is sitting there out of gear just revving. It does sound like it could be a metal flap. Maybe they meant the tumble flaps in the diagram


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## twin__turbo (Apr 12, 2012)

Black BeauTTy said:


> Interesting, I wasn't aware there were flaps by the DP. Are they the reason why the car gets ever so slightly louder when you put the clutch in at a stop? It sounds like something is opening up when you depress the clutch. I never knew what to attribute that to.


I was going to post a thread asking this exact question. I have the sport exhasut flap disconnected and always wondered why the exhasut note changed when the clutch was depressed. Interesting...


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

I think the exhausrt changing when the cutch is pressed is due ti idle comensation by the engine simlar to what happpens when you turn on the A/C. 
Turns out there is not another flap. The service advisor did not relay the info about the noise to the techs correctly and they were diagnosing the wrong ernd of the car (even though i verifed it with hi on the phone). they were workingon a loud exhaust flapp and an error code that came up about the flap while they had the car. To sum it up, they fixed somethint that was not broken when i dropped the car off and when i talked to the advosor on the phone he just made **** up about what was wrong and what was done. I hate that, why do they have to make **** up instead ofsaing they arenrt sure.
Car goes back on wednesday athough i am debating whether to take it to them or someplace else about 50 miles away.


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

Ok, car was making noise every day and twice onn some. Got it to the dealer and they have notbeen able to get it to make the noise in 2 days but luckily i had a video fo it. After some research on theri part they think there is a softeware update that addresses a metallic rattle but they are not sure if it applies to the ttrs. They will have the car over the weekend and let me know monday if the update is for my car.
Something new was the car made the rattle noise on the highway in 4th gear at around 3000rpm. As i accelerated it did it. Boy was i surprised. Will see what happens monday.
Side note, does nayone know how to look up tsb on erwin. When i bring up the info on the car some bulletins come up but i know there is one for the transmission mounts and iit doesnt show, i even have the tsb number. I wonderifthe erwin site the public gets isnt a liittle sanitized for your protection.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Quisp said:


> Ok, car was making noise every day and twice onn some. Got it to the dealer and they have notbeen able to get it to make the noise in 2 days but luckily i had a video fo it. After some research on theri part they think there is a softeware update that addresses a metallic rattle but they are not sure if it applies to the ttrs. They will have the car over the weekend and let me know monday if the update is for my car.
> Something new was the car made the rattle noise on the highway in 4th gear at around 3000rpm. As i accelerated it did it. Boy was i surprised. Will see what happens monday.
> Side note, does nayone know how to look up tsb on erwin. When i bring up the info on the car some bulletins come up but i know there is one for the transmission mounts and iit doesnt show, i even have the tsb number. I wonderifthe erwin site the public gets isnt a liittle sanitized for your protection.


Does it rattle when revving at a stop to the exact RPM in the videos posted in this thread ?


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## joshsmith (Apr 17, 2011)

*TTRS Is dying..*

Hi guys, 

So previously mentioned i was having the same issues with the chain rattling... Audi have (yet again!!!) got my car – this time for almost 2 months!!!!

They have reset ECU’s etc and it hasn’t worked, they are now at the stage where they are replacing the entire cylinder head and a fair amount of internal components.. They think it could be the lifters…. Or the chain… They actually have no idea what it is, it’s just speculation… 

Though when asked if the car has hydraulic lifters or solid lifters, their response was “I’m not sure”… COMFORTING??? Does anyone on here actually know?

I’m having arguments with Audi Australia head office because put simply, I don’t want the car back.. 14 months of back and forth for brake failures, suspension problems (which are still current even after replacing control arms, shocks and busches etc).. I’m over it..

Any suggestions on what to do? We’re working our way up to talking to the CEO of Audi Australia which will be in the next week or so.. 

It’s giving me the sh*ts massively..

Cheers,

Josh


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## J662 (Dec 8, 2011)

joshsmith said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> So previously mentioned i was having the same issues with the chain rattling... Audi have (yet again!!!) got my car – this time for almost 2 months!!!!
> 
> ...


Sounds like you got a bad apple. I haven't seen these problems on the forum with the exception of the know timing chain rattle which is normal and a non issue.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

joshsmith said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> So previously mentioned i was having the same issues with the chain rattling... Audi have (yet again!!!) got my car – this time for almost 2 months!!!!
> 
> ...


What happened to the brakes and suspension? I haven't heard much in the way of issues with the TT-RS across many different forums... Yes, brake upgrades are advisable for track duty and there are some suspension upgrades offered, but these aren't required for street driving.

For your engine issues, I would demand a brand new long block be installed at Audi's expense. That way you can be done with these issues. 

Note that the TT-RS isn't perfect... They are a little cold blooded for the first few minutes when started cold.


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

joshsmith said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> So previously mentioned i was having the same issues with the chain rattling... Audi have (yet again!!!) got my car – this time for almost 2 months!!!!
> 
> ...


I would not let anyone at the dealer take the engine apart unnecessarily! It's just a timing chain rattle!


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## joshsmith (Apr 17, 2011)

J662 said:


> Sounds like you got a bad apple. I haven't seen these problems on the forum with the exception of the know timing chain rattle which is normal and a non issue.


Yeah I’’m pretty sure it’s a lemon..



hightechrdn said:


> What happened to the brakes and suspension? I haven't heard much in the way of issues with the TT-RS across many different forums... Yes, brake upgrades are advisable for track duty and there are some suspension upgrades offered, but these aren't required for street driving.
> 
> For your engine issues, I would demand a brand new long block be installed at Audi's expense. That way you can be done with these issues.
> 
> Note that the TT-RS isn't perfect... They are a little cold blooded for the first few minutes when started cold.


My brakes faded on me once on the road (I wasn’t belting it either) and sent me through an intersection – luckily unharmed!!!!! And my suspension squeak that hasn’t gone away no matter how many times it’s gone back and forth to Audi.. kind of sounds like a bird chirpping..



Marty said:


> I would not let anyone at the dealer take the engine apart unnecessarily! It's just a timing chain rattle!


I'm not thrilled about it, hence the arguments with Audi Australia to take the friggin thing back.. They seem to think it's the lifters as it's not just cold start, it's actually when it's cold full stop.. And if you give it a little rev after cold start so you can replicate the noise, as it comes back down off the revs you can hear this horrendous tapping noise from the engine..


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

joshsmith said:


> Yeah I’’m pretty sure it’s a lemon..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep that's the timing chain. See the earlier videos in this thread for the exact RPM that rattles. I had something similar on my old VW too.


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

Mine does it exactly 2000-3000rpm every time it does make the noise.

and they are hydraulic valves. I have a copy of the audi repair manual with all the diagrams and it says hydraulic.


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## joshsmith (Apr 17, 2011)

Marty said:


> Yep that's the timing chain. See the earlier videos in this thread for the exact RPM that rattles. I had something similar on my old VW too.





Quisp said:


> Mine does it exactly 2000-3000rpm every time it does make the noise.
> 
> and they are hydraulic valves. I have a copy of the audi repair manual with all the diagrams and it says hydraulic.


Interesting... they seem to think it's the lifters.. ffs!!


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## joshsmith (Apr 17, 2011)

joshsmith said:


> Interesting... they seem to think it's the lifters.. ffs!!


Just listened to your videos properply.. Mine is a completley different noise.. It's a tapping and banging noise, not a chain kind of noise like in the video's...


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

if it is a tapping ticking then it porobably is lifters . I took mine in for that and was told it was normal and that it is also the high pressure fuel pump. I thought it was pretty loud to be normal but other have siad theres arelouad also.


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

if it is a tapping ticking then it porobably is lifters . I took mine in for that and was told it was normal and that it is also the high pressure fuel pump. I thought it was pretty loud to be normal but other have siad theres arelouad also.
does it happen at idle ior only when you hit the gas?


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## fourtunes (Sep 16, 2011)

FYI, I noticed today that the chain rattle has returned on my ccar. At present, I suspect the custom ECU image that fixed the problem for me was inadvertently replaced during a recent service, but I haven't double-checked yet. I'm taking the car in next week to have the dealer work out what happened.

It's always something with Audis.


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

I had the software update done and it helped but thenit came back. Not as bad as it was before but it is slowly getting worse. Interestingly, it now happens at a higher rpm than before. Used ot be around 2000, now it is 3000.
It may be a tiiming chain rattle but when it is time to sell the car I think that is going to hurt. It is a loud and very unhealthy sound. I am pretty sure if i were about to buy a car and it made that noise I would walk away. The seller would have a tough time convincing me that it is normal and not a problem.

http://s1164.photobucket.com/albums/q574/quisp13/?action=view&current=MAH00130_zpsd3c92e5c.mp4


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## R5T (Apr 7, 2010)

- Jeremy - said:


> For you TTRS guys in the northern climates: Does your car make a funky sound when cold over 2,000 RPM? Mine is pretty consistent. When the car is cold or semi-cold, and I start to rev it over 2k, a strange rattling/vibrating/hissing/grinding sound eminates from the engine bay. At first, I thought it was maybe a blow off valve preventing boost when it's so cold. But it just sounds awful, so I don't think that's it. After the car warms up for a few minutes, it's fine. So I just short-shift at 2k until it warms up. The car runs like a champ otherwise. No CEL, etc. It could be a cold heat shield that needs to warm up? I don't know.
> 
> The car exhibits no other problems, so I'll wait until my first inspection to have it looked at. Just curious if anyone else hears something similar from theirs. I need a friend to help out while I try to pinpoint the problem.
> 
> - Jeremy -


I would say Timing chain.


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

this is Audi's description of the timing chains(there are 2)

The timing drive on the gearbox side is of two-stage design, and is driven by two different chain types,
The geared-down oil pump is integrated into the primary drive. Both camshafts are driven by an intermediate gear which also drives the vacuum pump. Both drives are fitted with hydraulically damped chain tensioners. The chain used in the primary drive is a 3/8" toothed chain providing optimum acoustics. 
The secondary drive features a 3/8" roller chain. The chain drive is lubricated by the return oil flow of the two camshaft adjusters and by a hole in the high-pressure chamber of the very soft-set secondary drive chain tensioner. 










]I know that people have beenn told that it is normal and wont damage anything but i do not see how something making that noise that often can't be doing something. What exactoly is causing it other then the timing chain. What is happening with the chain?


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## R5T (Apr 7, 2010)

VAG have decided that they will never use timing chains again in there engines.
Every VAG/Audi engine will be replaced by engines with timing belts.

The first engine that have been replaced is the 1.4 TFSI engine.
The old engine had code EA 111 the belt engine has code EA211.










The next generation 2.5 TFSI will follow the same route according to info.


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

That would seem to be acknowledging that there is a problem.


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

Quisp said:


> That would seem to be acknowledging that there is a problem.


Or that it's cheaper to build. Figure the timing chain is far more durable than a belt so Audi is eating that cost. Timing belts typically get changed at 70k miles which is outside of the warranty so the owner eats that cost.


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## R5T (Apr 7, 2010)

Modern timing-belts are much more durable then in the past, there are even timing belts that can run up to 200.000 Km.
In the past a timing-belt was made mostly off rubber, the newest generation timing-belts are made mostly from synthetic materials.
I have a timing belt over a chain 24/7.


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

Timing belt over a chain?


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## R5T (Apr 7, 2010)

Quisp said:


> Timing belt over a chain?


Yep. 
Prefer timing belts over timing chains.


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## hightechrdn (Dec 9, 2011)

R5T said:


> VAG have decided that they will never use timing chains again in there engines.
> Every VAG/Audi engine will be replaced by engines with timing belts.
> 
> The first engine that have been replaced is the 1.4 TFSI engine.
> ...


What info are you quoting? Saying the Audi will 'never' use a timing chain is pretty far fetched... They will use whatever solution fits the design requirements at the lowest cost point. Timing belts are much more reliable now, but plenty of modern DOHC designs use timing chains instead.


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## fjork_duf (Jul 13, 2001)

Has anyone actually had this fixed? If so could you share?

On my RS this noise is really bad on cold starts morning and the afternoon. It's pretty bad driving around with the engine sounding like it's going to fall out.

Also it doesn't seem like it could be good for the longevity of the engine? but I'm no expert. Any updates would be appreciated.


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## J662 (Dec 8, 2011)

fjork_duf said:


> Has anyone actually had this fixed? If so could you share?
> 
> On my RS this noise is really bad on cold starts morning and the afternoon. It's pretty bad driving around with the engine sounding like it's going to fall out.
> 
> Also it doesn't seem like it could be good for the longevity of the engine? but I'm no expert. Any updates would be appreciated.


There is no fix for this.


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## lpriley32 (Jul 28, 2012)

My 2012 has almsot 20k miles on it and I just started noticing this noise recently. It is the exact same as the vidoes posted. Can rev up to 3k and let it drop and a little above 2k it makes the exact same noise...it is repeatable. Do you think this could develop on a car with 20k miles on it if it has never demonstrated this behavior before?


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

lpriley32 said:


> My 2012 has almsot 20k miles on it and I just started noticing this noise recently. It is the exact same as the vidoes posted. Can rev up to 3k and let it drop and a little above 2k it makes the exact same noise...it is repeatable. Do you think this could develop on a car with 20k miles on it if it has never demonstrated this behavior before?


It's oil pressure related, so I could see it changing over time as guides wear and deposits build up.


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## lpriley32 (Jul 28, 2012)

thanks marty. i have already contacted my dealer and let them know about the issue and they are looking for information. Do you know if there was ever a TSB related to this issue? I guess I could have them call Stevens Creek if their search doesnt turn up any info relating to the timing chain.


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## SheaAllan (Dec 14, 2012)

To add to the videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj8lchBxpfQ&feature=youtu.be

For me, it seems to happen every couple weeks or so (I drive the car almost every day). If we're pretty confident there's no permanent damage being done I can live with it.


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## Koa1 (Feb 21, 2012)

SheaAllan said:


> To add to the videos:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj8lchBxpfQ&feature=youtu.be
> 
> For me, it seems to happen every couple weeks or so (I drive the car almost every day). If we're pretty confident there's no permanent damage being done I can live with it.


I took my video to the audi dealership at my 5000 mile service 1 month ago. They did the software update and it hasn't made the sound since. TSB 2030037/1


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

*Same noise @ 300 miles*

I Noticed this on start up at 300 miles. So much for the theory that it doesn't happen during break in.
When I heard it I assumed it was valve train related. The chain tensioner check valve may bleed down when the car sits and then takes time to pump up and take up the tension.
It also may be a combination of chain noise and the lifters pumping up,as they can drain down when they sit.
I am not going to do anything about it until either some type of problem comes up related to it or there is a definitive fix. 
I doubt if Audi will do anything about it if it doesn't cause any problems other than noise.
I had a porsche GT3 that made all sorts of bad noises and they all did . Porsche said it was just " a Characteristic of the car". That is the standard manufacturers line that I've heard from BMW , ferrari , ford and Audi. It means they don't have a clue and don't want to spend the time or money to figure it out. Its cheaper to just deal with failures than to reengineer .

Remember the Ford pinto,Ford decided not to replace a $.90 bolt that would puncture the fuel tank on impact. because it was cheaper to settle lawsuits for deaths caused by the car exploding on rear impact! 
Carl


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

Not sure whaat the software update does but it helped for a period of 4-6 weeks. Then it slowly started coming back. At first it was not aas bad but itgot porgressively worse.
I am somewhat doubtful of the claims that it is normal and does not do any harm. The sound sis soimething metal movingand making contact with someting else resulting in a looud unhealthy sound. If it happens 100 + times wouldnt that have some affect on someting?
From past experience I have found that most car manufactureres will not spend the time and money working on something that is normal. Audii has spoent time and had their people work on a software update to address the noise. That is time and money spent on the issue. I was told it was normal when after the software did not fix it. Since they could not fix the problem it became "normal".
Just my thoughts on the matter


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

*Miles? Problems?*

Any high mileage RS out there ? Any mechanical engine problems on these cars that come up after high mileage ? It looks like the old "time will tell " deal to me. Carl


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## crackkills (Mar 10, 2007)

Things I do to avoid the noise. It obviously goes away once the engine warms up just a bit. One, I don't rev past 2000 rpms before water temp hits 1/4 way up. 

Secondly, I use Castrol 10w60 oil.  The higher oil pressure does cause the chain noise to die down much faster. 

I have no worries as to the oil being too think on cold starts.


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## cipsony (Mar 26, 2013)

My car has about 72.000 Km.
It makes no strange sound and I don't have any problem with it.

I start the engine when cold and let it reduce the rpm. After this I drive below 2500rpm till the oil heats up to at least 60 grd --> I only push it hard after water gets to 90 grd and OIL to 80.

I revved the engine when cold to see if it makes any strange noise but it doesn't.


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

cipsony said:


> My car has about 72.000 Km.
> It makes no strange sound and I don't have any problem with it.
> 
> I start the engine when cold and let it reduce the rpm. After this I drive below 2500rpm till the oil heats up to at least 60 grd --> I only push it hard after water gets to 90 grd and OIL to 80.
> ...


That's good because ill bet you get a lot of chances for cold starts in Romania..carl


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

*Some diagnostic info.*

I have a mechanics amplified stethoscope so I did a cold and hot nose test. First remember this is Santa Barbara and cold is 50 degrees... 
When I started the car it didn’t make the nasty metallic rattle that I have heard. 
There are three areas of noise that are louder cold than hot. The lifters, the HPFP, and the timing chain. 
The biggest difference is the HPFP it really is a lot nosier cold than hot. As the engine heats up the valve noise is less but still present even though the lash has hydraulic adjusters. The same with the chain louder cold but still some noise hot. 
My gut is the chain tensioner drains down when the car sits and hydraulic lash adjusters may also have some drain down. Combine that with the increase in tolerances’ when the engine is cold and you have a coffee grinder sometimes on start up. 
If that is the case it’s the classic “Design characteristic “. 
Or that’s show biz , live with it..
carl


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

can the rattle be this??

http://www.eurodrivers.ca/forums/showthread.php?25670-2-0-tsi-URGENT-UPDATE


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## J662 (Dec 8, 2011)

tdi-bart said:


> can the rattle be this??
> 
> http://www.eurodrivers.ca/forums/showthread.php?25670-2-0-tsi-URGENT-UPDATE


That's not good. Looks like the same thing. Interesting. So we have to wait till engine blows up?


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

*Check out pages 25&26 there is no software control for oil pressure*

http://grouptraining.avme.net:8080/documents/modules/13/Audi_SSP_451_WG_EN[1].pdf


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

Originally Posted by Phuzun 
Looks like it should be http://grouptraining.avme.net:8080/d..._EN[1].pdf

And are you sure this can be shared with the public? The directory itself is private.


This is for the dealer techs to understand the design changes . There's really nothing that's not been published in other formats . 
What's I found interesting is P 25-26 the oil system . From the description I don't see any type of electronic control of oil pressure . It looks like a standard purely mechanical system. That means a software update to fix the timing chain noise by controling oil pressure on start up is impossible ! Carl


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## Koa1 (Feb 21, 2012)

carl44 said:


> Originally Posted by Phuzun
> Looks like it should be http://grouptraining.avme.net:8080/d..._EN[1].pdf
> 
> And are you sure this can be shared with the public? The directory itself is private.
> ...


Other members noticed this also earlier in the thread (JohnLZ7W on page 4). Like Fourtunes wrote, I don't believe the self study guide shows all of the components and sensors in the system. Given that several of us have had the problem solved with the software update, I'm sure Audi is changing something. If not the oil pump, possibly a valve somewhere else opens sooner or later. My suggestion is get the update and see what happens.


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

Had the update done. Noise went away for a short time(month) then started coming back at 3000 rpm instead of 2500

Here is a link for the above info
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...p4CQBA&usg=AFQjCNEduerHxcTvqjE4FQ0Pur_s9aHGvA


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

Koa1 said:


> Other members noticed this also earlier in the thread (JohnLZ7W on page 4). Like Fourtunes wrote, I don't believe the self study guide shows all of the components and sensors in the system. Given that several of us have had the problem solved with the software update, I'm sure Audi is changing something. If not the oil pump, possibly a valve somewhere else opens sooner or later. My suggestion is get tge he update and see what happens.


i also have the factory shop manual and the oil pressure and circulation has no electrical control, its only mechanical. im not saying that the software doesn't change the engine operating parameters but it doesn't change the oil pressure on start up. 
just my opinion ..carl


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## Koa1 (Feb 21, 2012)

carl44 said:


> i also have the factory shop manual and the oil pressure and circulation has no electrical control, its only mechanical. im not saying that the software doesn't change the engine operating parameters but it doesn't change the oil pressure on start up.
> just my opinion ..carl


See pages 140-141 and 163-168 on in the service manual. There appears to be electronic regulation of "Oil pressure switch F22" and "Oil Pressure Regulation Valve N428." Let me know what you think.


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## Koa1 (Feb 21, 2012)

Koa1 said:


> See pages 140-141 and 163-168 on in the service manual. There appears to be electronic regulation of "Oil pressure switch F22" and "Oil Pressure Regulation Valve N428." Let me know what you think.


Those are the pages in the Engine Mechanical module of the manual forgot to mention that.


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

Koa1 said:


> See pages 140-141 and 163-168 on in the service manual. There appears to be electronic regulation of "Oil pressure switch F22" and "Oil Pressure Regulation Valve N428." Let me know what you think.


Cant find it in the ELSA WEB manual the "Oil Pressure Regulation Valve N428"may be the spring loaded piston that is built into the pump. There are 2 pressure valves in the pump. one to maintain a running pressure of 3.7 bar the other is a releaf valve that opens @ 13 bar to dump excess pressure..let me know. thanks carl


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

Koa1 said:


> Those are the pages in the Engine Mechanical module of the manual forgot to mention that.


Your correct, found it but it doest explain what it does. good catch carl


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## Koa1 (Feb 21, 2012)

carl44 said:


> Your correct, found it but it doest explain what it does. good catch carl



You're right. I wish the service manual explained more. The fact that both valves appear to be electronically controlled is a good sign though. My guess is that they are the valves you referred to, and the change is software may be forcing more oil up to the timing chain at an earlier pressure at startup.

from the manual:
Oil Pressure Switch -F22- from September 2010
♦ Switching pressure 2.15 to 2.95 bar

So they list a switching pressure of 2.15 to 2.95 bar, but maybe the software lowers that pressure threshold, thereby opening (or closing for that matter) the valve quicker at startup?


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## Koa1 (Feb 21, 2012)

Quisp said:


> Had the update done. Noise went away for a short time(month) then started coming back at 3000 rpm instead of 2500
> 
> Here is a link for the above info
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...p4CQBA&usg=AFQjCNEduerHxcTvqjE4FQ0Pur_s9aHGvA


Definitely waiting to hear what happens with yours. Hopefully you'll be taking it back in to document it and see what Audi says.


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## Koa1 (Feb 21, 2012)

Also not this on the bottom of page 26 in the study guide:
"A self-regulating oil pump will be adopted from calendar week 36/2010. The design and function of a self-regulating oil pump of this type are described in Self-Study Programme 436 " Modifications to the chain-driven 4-cylinder TFSI engine".

Seems like the pump in the study guide may not accurately depict the revised one in our cars.


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

Koa1 said:


> Also not this on the bottom of page 26 in the study guide:
> "A self-regulating oil pump will be adopted from calendar week 36/2010. The design and function of a self-regulating oil pump of this type are described in Self-Study Programme 436 " Modifications to the chain-driven 4-cylinder TFSI engine".
> 
> Seems like the pump in the study guide may not accurately depict the revised one in our cars.


wish i could find "Self-Study Programme 436 " just spent 2 hrs trying. anybody have it?
thanks carl


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

Koa1 said:


> Also not this on the bottom of page 26 in the study guide:
> "A self-regulating oil pump will be adopted from calendar week 36/2010. The design and function of a self-regulating oil pump of this type are described in Self-Study Programme 436 " Modifications to the chain-driven 4-cylinder TFSI engine".
> 
> Seems like the pump in the study guide may not accurately depict the revised one in our cars.


The US TT-RS uses the "self-regulating oil pump", which has electronic pressure regulation via low and high pressure sensors, and an actuator. Read to your heart's content on how this works in this document on the 2.0 TFSI starting on page 17 (equivalent to SSP 436) *here* (found on Google).


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

Marty said:


> The US TT-RS uses the "self-regulating oil pump", which has electronic pressure regulation via low and high pressure sensors, and an actuator. Read to your heart's content on how this works in this document on the 2.0 TFSI starting on page 17 (equivalent to SSP 436) *here* (found on Google).


Great job. Thanks


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

Went to my dealer today and had them do a full download all the control modules. They gave me 35 pages of data. I was with the tech ( great guy)for the whole time. He also called the Audi tech line and confirmed the latest software and what was in my car. I have the update R/010 software . Any car made after 6/12 will have it. Even though I have the update the car will sill make the noise sometimes. I've heard it 3 times in 900 miles so I don't think it's a definitive fix. I thinks it better but the issue is a design flaw. The tensioner gets its oil last and it's at the top of the motor the check valve drains down. because its at the end on the line it takes time to fully pump up the tensioner. The tech agreed and said all audi cam chain motors had similar issues but most people don't notice. 
Carl


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

Already had the car back to dealer after the software and the noise came back. This time it is now a "normal" noise. oesnt make sense that before it was not "normal" and there was software made to address it and then it becomes "normal".


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## Marty (Jul 14, 2000)

carl44 said:


> Went to my dealer today and had them do a full download all the control modules. They gave me 35 pages of data. I was with the tech ( great guy)for the whole time. He also called the Audi tech line and confirmed the latest software and what was in my car. I have the update R/010 software . Any car made after 6/12 will have it. Even though I have the update the car will sill make the noise sometimes. I've heard it 3 times in 900 miles so I don't think it's a definitive fix. I thinks it better but the issue is a design flaw. The tensioner gets its oil last and it's at the top of the motor the check valve drains down. because its at the end on the line it takes time to fully pump up the tensioner. The tech agreed and said all audi cam chain motors had similar issues but most people don't notice.
> Carl


It's only on cold starts, and goes away after a minute. Honestly I haven't noticed it since the update...


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

Quisp said:


> Already had the car back to dealer after the software and the noise came back. This time it is now a "normal" noise. oesnt make sense that before it was not "normal" and there was software made to address it and then it becomes "normal".


I've heard the line(it's a design characteristic ) from Ferrari, BMW, Porsche, Acura, VW. It's basically we give up and don't have a clue, go away , live with it. Carl


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## Koa1 (Feb 21, 2012)

Quisp said:


> Already had the car back to dealer after the software and the noise came back. This time it is now a "normal" noise. oesnt make sense that before it was not "normal" and there was software made to address it and then it becomes "normal".


I googled "timing chain tensioner rattle" and found tons of posts ranging multiple brands over many years. The cold start rattle seems very common on the forums and ranges from NA V8s to FI 4 cylinders. VAG has been saying it's normal for years. I believe they would have corrected it with a revised system if they were having engine failures. To sum up and make a long post even longer, this may all be much ado about nothing but it never hurts to document.


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

Koa1 said:


> I googled "timing chain tensioner rattle" and found tons of posts ranging multiple brands over many years. The cold start rattle seems very common on the forums and ranges from NA V8s to FI 4 cylinders. VAG has been saying it's normal for years. I believe they would have corrected it with a revised system if they were having engine failures. To sum up and make a long post even longer, this may all be much ado about nothing but it never hurts to document.


I've learned a lot about self regulating oil pumps.. . It was really interesting watching the audi computer scan 26 control modules for faults. It picked up that I took the light bulb out of the light in the trunk. I did that because I leave it open when the car sits on a battery tender. Carl


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

Nice work everyone. I don't have the rattle but it's nice to know, at least as far as we can tell currently, that it's not a big problem.


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

Black BeauTTy said:


> Nice work everyone. I don't have the rattle but it's nice to know, at least as far as we can tell currently, that it's not a big problem.


About a week ago I did a search for " Audi TTRS engine failure" I found one car in Europe that had a catastrophic melt down - broke a rod, early car , but that was it. So besides sounding like a coffee grinder every now and then the motor seems to stay together . Ultimately time will tell...carl


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## tdi-bart (Feb 10, 2011)

i havent gotten updated software for this fix, but i let the car warm up before revving it so its never a problem for me


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## canuckttrs (Feb 5, 2012)

just think of this noise as the engine warming up, same as the pre-cat warm-up sequence for the exhaust. it's a special engine so we shouldn't expect it to sound like a prius.


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

canuckttrs said:


> just think of this noise as the engine warming up, same as the pre-cat warm-up sequence for the exhaust. it's a special engine so we shouldn't expect it to sound like a prius.


I think it's a good motor but its just a beefed up motor from the rabbit. Carl


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## canuckttrs (Feb 5, 2012)

carl44 said:


> I think it's a good motor but its just a beefed up motor from the rabbit. Carl


Almost identical yes....

The block itself is made of high tensile vermicular-graphite cast iron, which means it is both light in weight and able to withstand incredible stress.

The cylinder head is similar to the 2.5-liter VW engine, but here it has been thoroughly modified to provide more durability. Changes include a different aluminum casting alloy, sodium-filled exhaust valves for better cooling and a new intake port.

Other additions include direct injection, a new engine management system, an intercooler and a K16 Borg-Warner turbo good for up to 17.4 psi.

opcorn:


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## Black BeauTTy (Jun 11, 2011)

...and the car is really just a dressed up Golf. Come on Carl, are you being serious? That's a troll statement usually. About the only thing this motor has in common with the rabbit 2.5 is the displacement.


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

canuckttrs said:


> Almost identical yes....
> 
> The block itself is made of high tensile vermicular-graphite cast iron, which means it is both light in weight and able to withstand incredible stress.
> 
> ...


Not quite correct. The block is a shortened version of the NA 2.5. They needed to cut some length out of it to accommodate the turbo piping that runs along the passenger side. The head is much closer to the 2.0TSI engine than the 2.5 NA head.

So really the 2.5T is NOT:
1) half a V10
2) just a turbocharged VW NA 2.5
3) 2.0TSI with an extra cylinder


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## canuckttrs (Feb 5, 2012)

insert sarcasm into my previous post.


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

canuckttrs said:


> insert sarcasm into previous post.


I'll grab some opcorn: too


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

Lets just say its not a clean sheet of paper design..carl


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

carl44 said:


> Lets just say its not a clean sheet of paper design..carl


Clean sheet engine designs don't come along very often anymore


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

JohnLZ7W said:


> Clean sheet engine designs don't come along very often anymore


I agree . Carl


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

If it was something normal then why did they spend time and money coming up with s software fix?
My other concern is when it comes time to sell the car that is going to be a tough noise to explain to a potential buyer. Is the noise everyeone is hearing a very loud (as in startle someone standing by the car and makes them jump), noise or is it something you would have to listen carefully to hear?


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

I really doubt it audi is going to do anything else about it. Unless they get some major engine failures that start costing them a lot of money. Like I said in an earlier post I did a search for engine failures and really could only find one that was a Early car in Europe . My conclusion is for the time being is let the car idle for 1 to 2 minutes on cold startup and then drive easy till temperature gauge comes off C. 
Carl


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## J662 (Dec 8, 2011)

I don't know why this is a big deal. Warm up your car for a couple min. Prob solved.


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## carl44 (Nov 23, 2012)

Black BeauTTy said:


> ...and the car is really just a dressed up Golf. Come on Carl, are you being serious? That's a troll statement usually. About the only thing this motor has in common with the rabbit 2.5 is the displacement.


I'm not. A troll whatever that is.and I don't call the car a dressed up golf . I tell people im driving a supped up rabbit instead..Don't get me wrong I really like the car its my second TT in 4 mounts 1-TTS+ 1-TTRS. Carl


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## Quisp (Mar 18, 2012)

J662 said:


> I don't know why this is a big deal. Warm up your car for a couple min. Prob solved.


 
(slapping my forehead with palm of my hand) Why did nt I think of that? And when teh person is going to buy the car from me I will tell them the same thing(as they walk away from the car)


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## J662 (Dec 8, 2011)

Quisp said:


> (slapping my forehead with palm of my hand) Why did nt I think of that? And when teh person is going to buy the car from me I will tell them the same thing(as they walk away from the car)


Bottom line is this is not something that would need to be disclosed. There are no tsb's, no recalls, no issues acknowledged by Audi. It's the way the car is. At this points it's an annoying noise that does not damage the car.


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## Jetronic (Mar 12, 2002)

*Agreed*



J662 said:


> I don't know why this is a big deal. Warm up your car for a couple min. Prob solved.


Totally agree here.

I've had my car since Nov 2011 and have had the chain noise since almost day 1... So I let the car idle in my driveway while I plug in my phone and get setup and by the time I hit the road everything is just fine. I was always told to take it easy on the car for the first 10 minutes of driving to let the oil temp come up anyway. Is this really a big deal on such an awesome car? I guess I'm more understanding and forgiving. I own an old Scirocco 16v and I have to let that warm up for a few minutes before it drives well.. I guess I'm just used to babying cars when they are cold started.

-d


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

J662 said:


> Bottom line is this is not something that would need to be disclosed. There are no tsb's, no recalls, no issues acknowledged by Audi. It's the way the car is. At this points it's an annoying noise that does not damage the car.


Somewhere in this thread a TSB was posted, have no way to confirm it tho  It was TSB2030037/1


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## J662 (Dec 8, 2011)

JohnLZ7W said:


> Somewhere in this thread a TSB was posted, have no way to confirm it tho  It was TSB2030037/1


Here is the thread: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...d-when-cold-over-2k-RPM&p=81392313&viewfull=1

This tsb was for a software update and not necessarily for the timing chain. Also if you try and look this tsb up it doesn't come up so I question whether or not it was a true tsb. 

Search tsb's here: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchVehicles


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## JohnLZ7W (Nov 23, 2003)

I think the issue is that, like the squealing brakes, it sounds like ass in a brand new nearly $70k car.


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## J662 (Dec 8, 2011)

JohnLZ7W said:


> I think the issue is, like the squealing brakes, it sounds like ass in a brand new nearly $70k car.


Pretty much sums it up.


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## JMBone (4 mo ago)

Has anyone ever got any update on this? My car definitely seems to have it, but only at a specific range and it doesn’t matter if it’s cold or warm. 2012 TT RS, 72,000 miles.

Cold or warm start it sounds perfectly fine. But when driving, either cold or fully warmed, I have the noise I believe everyone talks about. A rather noticeably loud grinding/rattling sound. For me it only makes itself know between 1,700 to 2,300 RPM. Never above or below. It hasn’t seemed to cause any issues yet and I try to actively avoid that RPM range. I don’t know if I should be worried and consider getting timing done, or just “live with it.”

Edit: I called Audi and supposedly my car had the TSB applied in May of 2015. So it didn’t fix my car.


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## JMBone (4 mo ago)

JMBone said:


> Has anyone ever got any update on this? My car definitely seems to have it, but only at a specific range and it doesn’t matter if it’s cold or warm. 2012 TT RS, 72,000 miles.
> 
> Cold or warm start it sounds perfectly fine. But when driving, either cold or fully warmed, I have the noise I believe everyone talks about. A rather noticeably loud grinding/rattling sound. For me it only makes itself know between 1,700 to 2,300 RPM. Never above or below. It hasn’t seemed to cause any issues yet and I try to actively avoid that RPM range. I don’t know if I should be worried and consider getting timing done, or just “live with it.”
> 
> Edit: I called Audi and supposedly my car had the TSB applied in May of 2015. So it didn’t fix my car.


So update on my situation; I guess my local shop feels it’s normal. They have dealt with quite a few MK2 TT RS cars. The technician said “There is some timing noise, but it is consistent with other MK2 TT RS’ we have dealt with.” They felt it’s not a cause for concern and observed healthy chain stretch values in VCDS. So, yet again, there is “fix” for a noise timing track in our cars, I guess it’s just something we have. Oh well.


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## Jetronic (Mar 12, 2002)

JMBone said:


> So update on my situation; I guess my local shop feels it’s normal. They have dealt with quite a few MK2 TT RS cars. The technician said “There is some timing noise, but it is consistent with other MK2 TT RS’ we have dealt with.” They felt it’s not a cause for concern and observed healthy chain stretch values in VCDS. So, yet again, there is “fix” for a noise timing track in our cars, I guess it’s just something we have. Oh well.


I see my post from 2013 up there. Fast forward to 2021 and I still have that issue in a different TTRS. 

I'd be interested to see if a new timing chain actually gets rid of the noise issue -- maybe next time I need a clutch or something, I'd consider it. My car is at 40k miles and it's just super hard to justify a new timing chain. 

-d


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## JMBone (4 mo ago)

Jetronic said:


> I see my post from 2013 up there. Fast forward to 2021 and I still have that issue in a different TTRS.
> 
> I'd be interested to see if a new timing chain actually gets rid of the noise issue -- maybe next time I need a clutch or something, I'd consider it. My car is at 40k miles and it's just super hard to justify a new timing chain.
> 
> -d


I find it hard to justify at “only” 73k as well when it should be lifetime. If I ever do my chain and it fixes it I’ll post it.

Does yours happen when the engine is also warm, at a similar RPM? Or just cold?


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## Jetronic (Mar 12, 2002)

JMBone said:


> I find it hard to justify at “only” 73k as well when it should be lifetime. If I ever do my chain and it fixes it I’ll post it.
> 
> Does yours happen when the engine is also warm, at a similar RPM? Or just cold?


Hey Justin. I just realized this was you. My car is actually at USP today having the injectors replaced and walnut blast done. My mechanic is suddenly super anxious about the timing chain noise so I was looking into the forums to see if anybody had ever lost an engine because of the chain. I'm really trying to defer having this work done unless it's going to grenade itself. And yeah, only cold/cool starts at around 2000 RPM for the first 30 seconds -- exactly like my original car did for 7 years. I would love a definitive answer on whether this is a dangerous situation or not -- my instinct says it isn't.


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## JMBone (4 mo ago)

Jetronic said:


> Hey Justin. I just realized this was you. My car is actually at USP today having the injectors replaced and walnut blast done. My mechanic is suddenly super anxious about the timing chain noise so I was looking into the forums to see if anybody had ever lost an engine because of the chain. I'm really trying to defer having this work done unless it's going to grenade itself. And yeah, only cold/cool starts at around 2000 RPM for the first 30 seconds -- exactly like my original car did for 7 years. I would love a definitive answer on whether this is a dangerous situation or not -- my instinct says it isn't.


Mine also seemed somewhere between not concerned and concerned lol so I’m also curious what to do. I’ll probably do mine in another 3k miles or so.

I haven’t heard of one breaking from failed timing. Just over-revving from downshifts and piston rings from leaky injectors.


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