# Variable Timing Problem - NEED HELP



## Motodisiac (Dec 2, 2008)

I will try to be brief and to the point. 

Some time ago my 24V VR6 Eurovan stopped running right. CEL On, no idle, runs ok on high RPM's. Sounds like it has racing cam. CEL code is "intake camshaft position sensor" along with "missifire" 

Anyways, some basic troubleshooting led to to believe that timing is off. I pulled valve cover and upper timing cover off to inspect things (not an easy job on Eurovan) Sure enough, intake cam was off by perhaps 20 degrees. Chain, sprockets and slider look new, so jumped chain was ruled out (not to mention that exhaust cam was in correct position in relation to crankshaft in TDC) 

Then we (my friend is giving me a hand) removed both solenoids that adjust the oil flow to camshaft adjusters. I bench tested them with 12v and they work perfect. 

With solenoids removed, my friend was able to move the intake camshaft to correct position (using a wrench on the cam sprocket bolt) Understandably neither exhaust cam nor the chain moved. 

So basically intake camshaft adjuster was stuck in incorrect timing position. Now I'm trying to figure out why it happened and what to do. And this is exactly what I need help with. 

Is there a way to test the adjuster? 
Was the problem caused by stuck solenoid valve that appears to be working perfect now (it's clean inside) 
Is something else clogged with sludge (there is quite a bit of sludge buildup everywhere) preventing the adjuster to return to normal position when RPM's drop? 

The easiest solution would be replacing both adjusters and solenoid valves, but that is $2000 solution and I do not want to go there. 

How exactly does this system work? When does the adjuster return to normal position? I would appreciate any relevant information / solutions. Thanks in advance.


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

It may have been installed wrong, or your timing chain may be stretched. 

What EXACT codes were you getting? Was it a cam shaft position sensor / crank position sensor incorrect correlation? That one, if the timing is right can be caused by a stretched chain. 

This might help: 









I'd say put it all back together right and see if it works, otherwise you will probably have to swap the chains. 

Also might want to clean out the adjuster. Basically they have 2 chambers that fill with oil, one fills when the solenoid is open and then the other fills when the solenoid is closed, this causes it to move back and forth adjusting the 'phase' of the camshaft.


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## Motodisiac (Dec 2, 2008)

It showed P0011 and P0340 codes. My car has 110K miles on it so I doubt the chains are stretched (and from what I understand the position of exhaust cam in relevance to crank would be off as well). I'm absolutely sure it was never apart so incorrect installation is ruled out as well.

Cleaning the adjuster is something that I think will help. I found one report of some oil pickup screen (somewhere around the adjuster) getting clogged with sludge causing the same issue. Do I have to remove the adjusters AND take them apart to clean them? 

By the way the picture you posted definitely helps, do you have any more on the same topic? Thank you.


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## eurotech8689canada (Dec 1, 2010)

*in the same boat...*

Hey guys, 
i've been banging my head against a wall trying to get my vr6 to stop throwing codes p0011 p0014 and p0015! i've replaced both timing chains, all hydraulic tentioners (upper and lower), the stripped inter shaft gear that caused the problem in the first place and i've just replaced the very pricey valve body with the 2 cam adjuster soleniods on it. ( replaced because the particle screen sandwitched behind it and the head was damaged and you cannot buuy it seperatly from the dealer!!!)

i've reassembled the engine according to the Bentley manual but it keeps storing fault codes. together the van goes great but once the codes are erased it idles eraticaly (between 700 and 800 rpm +-50)

I too had some engine sludge build up and am convinced it's from running non-syn oil for too long.

any help on the matter would be great


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

Well, I had a bunch of those over advanced/over retarded/incorrect correlation codes. I changed all my guides and both chains, and now all my codes are gone. My motor has only ~90K on it, but most of them were hard turbo miles. 

Eurotech: are you sure your timing is set right? Did you align the cam sprockets like in that pic above when you put it back together?

Motodisiac: I bet your chain is stretched a tiny bit. It only takes like half a tooth or less of misalignment to cause these codes. Sometimes I would get both intake/exhaust cam codes, sometimes just one, etc. It's kinda weird.


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## VReihen6 (Aug 7, 2006)

I have this issue however, It's only when the top left 2 pin connector is plugged in, Getting something like over-retarded setpoint not reached or something.

But I've been running with that wire disconnected for almost 3 years now. I gave up hope trying to figure it out. If it was a stretched chain I'd imagine I would have problems regardless.

I think my ECM needs changed.


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## eurotech8689canada (Dec 1, 2010)

Phree, 
i am 99% sure my timing is dead on. i've had the engine/trans out 2 times to double check the timing marks myself (had a few other ppl check 'em too just to keep my sanity!) i've also replaced all the guides in the process.
i hate to say it but i feel like it may be metal particles in the cam adjuster passages causing the problem! (another 2k spent at the dealer) have you ever had one apart?? can they be cleaned well enough and re-assembled to be reliable for another 100 000km??

as for the cam adjusters located on the cams... my adjusters have locating pins on them so with the cam ruler in the far end of the cams i have (twice) set the adjusters in the right place, rotating them clockwise (or toward the back or the car) and counting the rollers between them. (16) 

the only thing i was uneasy about was the lower chain tentioner. the procedure says " after installing, remove retaining pin and push against chain to hold tention" is it possible to have it installed too tight? should i release it and start over?

any direction would be great. thanks


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

Beagley, my car ran for years with the issue too, and it ran seemingly fine, and then replacing all the timing stuff fixed it. :screwy: Are you sure you dont have the cam sensors plugged in backwards? (the sensors have the same plug and can be reversed, the solenoids to control the sprockets do not)

Eurotech, you might be correct about the metal filings in the screen. I dont know how easy it is to take all that stuff apart tho..


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## VReihen6 (Aug 7, 2006)

I read this.. and I checked mine.. they CANNOT be reversed. The top 2 plugs can, but the wire harness does not allow it enough slack.


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

I have had them swapped on my car but uhh my wiring harness isnt exactly stock  so yeah you probably have them correct :thumbup:


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## VReihen6 (Aug 7, 2006)

My wire harness was tucked at one time, and the way the wires were re-ran I can't swap them, but it messed up AFTER it was tucked. So I know thats not the issue.

I ran a volt check on the wires there and didn't get anything. I may have to check it at the ECM plug.


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

I think they are hall senders, there might not be voltage there. What does it say in the bentley? I bet your chain is just stretched.  It only takes a TINY bit to make it throw that code.


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## VReihen6 (Aug 7, 2006)

So if its stretched, I wouldn't see any problems except for a code? This was 3 years ago when it messed up. Car has been fine ever since... Just can't plug that wire in.


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

Well eventually you will probably get the over advanced/retarted codes on one or both of the cam sensors too. I started with just the incorrect crank correlation code, and ended up with 3 of them total but the whole time the motor ran pretty well.

Does your motor still run fine with the sensor plugged in? Or does it run all weird? I always left mine plugged in, and it seemed to be ok.

The 3 codes I had (cam/crank correlation and then not exactly sure what the other two but they were one for each cam sensor and it was either over advanced or over retarted) eventually popped up and the motor still ran fine, but when I had my cams and new clutch installed I did the both the chains and all the guides and all 3 of those codes have been gone since. 

IMHO it is something that you should fix when you can get around to it, I don't think you are in any imminent danger of blowing it up, heh, but you might be loosing a tiny bit of performance. Also, isn't your car N/A? I was probably doing a bit more, uh 'stretching' as time went on


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## VReihen6 (Aug 7, 2006)

PhReE said:


> Well eventually you will probably get the over advanced/retarted codes on one or both of the cam sensors too. I started with just the incorrect crank correlation code, and ended up with 3 of them total but the whole time the motor ran pretty well.
> 
> Does your motor still run fine with the sensor plugged in? Or does it run all weird? I always left mine plugged in, and it seemed to be ok.
> 
> ...



Yup car is NA, always has been.

Yeah I'm getting that over-retarded code, forgot exactly what it was.

My car will barely run at all with the sensor plugged in, Doesn't idle and every time you tap the gas it will die. Sensor has been unplugged for 3 years. I only think its the ECM because it happened at the exact time a wire in my engine bay grounded its self out. 

Guess I will have to look into replacing my chain and guides here soon.


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

I can't remember if you said but have you tried swapping the 2 cam sensors and seeing if the problem is just one of the sensors? You can swap the sensors and its super easy, just one bolt each. 

In any case if you can do the work the timing chain job can be pretty cheap. I have seen full kits online with the chains and all guides for $200-230.

However tat bit about grounding out a wire, does sound fishy, you could have fried some of the circuitry at that input, who knows.


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## VReihen6 (Aug 7, 2006)

PhReE said:


> I can't remember if you said but have you tried swapping the 2 cam sensors and seeing if the problem is just one of the sensors? You can swap the sensors and its super easy, just one bolt each.
> 
> In any case if you can do the work the timing chain job can be pretty cheap. I have seen full kits online with the chains and all guides for $200-230.
> 
> However tat bit about grounding out a wire, does sound fishy, you could have fried some of the circuitry at that input, who knows.


I've replaced both sensors from SLEEPYDUBS car cause his werent even being used. Still same issue. 

I'll get around to changing the chains sometime in the spring, Car is at 100k miles anways so it's probably about that time. Yeah I'll do all the work myself, I should of replaced it when I changed my slave cylinder, but then again I was only at 60k miles.


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

Might as well try and get jacobs ecu too. Is it still around/what software is on it? Can you just swap it in and see?

If you have the secret key codes you can do all the immobilizer changes with a vagcom yourself..

If you accidentally shorted +12v to one of the sensors that is supposed to go to one of those cam sensors I wouldn't be surprised if you fried some **** in the ecu.


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## VReihen6 (Aug 7, 2006)

PhReE said:


> Might as well try and get jacobs ecu too. Is it still around/what software is on it? Can you just swap it in and see?
> 
> If you have the secret key codes you can do all the immobilizer changes with a vagcom yourself..
> 
> If you accidentally shorted +12v to one of the sensors that is supposed to go to one of those cam sensors I wouldn't be surprised if you fried some **** in the ecu.



Yeah I thought about that awhile ago, we dont have secret codes for either ECU.. I asked this question to jeff a long time ago but never got an answer. 

His ECU the ONLY wires hooked up to it are the stuff for revs. So I doubt it would need mine reflashed to work in his. 

I'll probably just buy a new ecu and have it reflashed and then sent to me.


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

That's right he is still using his... I was thinking it was just chillin on a shelf or something. 

If you get a new one just have them flash the immo out when you put whatever software on it, then you wont have any worries.


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## engineman98 (May 31, 2008)

This tech bulletin was helpful in troubleshooting, 

http://www.billswebspace.com/vw.tb.15-04-01_mil_on_w_vr6.pdf


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## PhReE (Sep 16, 2004)

Wow that is really cool. I will def have a look at that on my car in vagcom. Since I have a car pc I will try and log it at least every month and I can watch the trends... That's really cool...


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## Xtremjeepn (Jan 9, 2005)

Sorry to dog up an old thread. 

I seeto be having a similar issue and thought you guys might be able to help. 



I bought this van with a diagnosis of needing a chain and tensioners replaced. 

When I got it it had multiple misfire codes and a bad sensor code. 

Forgive the photos, I'm using a ancient computer that I can't export my vagcom from. 



















I cleared these codes and logged data block 208-209. The only code that comes back is the cam position code.

When I log those data blocks there is a missing field for block 208. I tried swapping the sensors to see if the problem moved with the sensors but it stayed on block 208.











I ordered timing chain kit from ECS and began taking the vr6 apart. I have just the upper cover off at this point. The van would not idle 90% of the time but ran smooth with a touch of throttle. No chain noise, but again it would not idle to the chain was always under a bit of tension. 

I lined up all the timing marks and locked them in place today. All the chain guides I can see from above look fine with very little wear. The chain was tight before I took off the tensioner with the upper cover. I can see the sprockets and they look good, teeth are not worn down. Lower chain as far as I can feel with a couple of fingers is snug. 

Honestly, if this is not the problem I would prefer to not remove the transmission and change the chain if I don't have to.

What else could be causing the issue? Could it be just a bad upper tensioner bolt? (Letting one cam slack off and not idle right until pressure is applied?) (I'd feel silly if it were that simple, but not as silly as the previous owner and two shops)

The back cam is off just a half mm or so compared to the front one. How precise are these? Could a cam adjuster be bad?


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## wesley rsa (Aug 27, 2014)

*Stick camshaft adjuster*

I hope some can help me with the following

Vehicle details : VW Jetta 4 V5 2.3L 20V 2001 model
Engine : AQN

I have recently replaced all timing chains, chain tensioners and guide rails, Gaskets, Seals, Piston Rings due to engine sludge.

After assembling the motor and checking all the timing marks over and over, When rotating the motor clockwise by hand to check that nothing is out of order I noticed that the cam adjustors are sticking. When the motor is turned over the cams seem to stick at certain intervals but automatically jump back into position, its as if the cams are stuck in the cam adjusters and at certain intervals release and jump back into position, even after turning the motor over about 30 times all the timing marks are still correct. Therefore the timing chain is not jumping the sprockets and offsetting the timing. 

The TDC mark on piston 1 is correct, the marks on the intermediate shaft/sprocket are correct as well as the marks on the chain showing the 16 links between the camshaft adjusters and the marks on the Valve timing housing.

The cams are also in the correct position, using a plate at the rear of the cams to keep them in position, during initial timing setup.

I had to remove the camshaft adjusters to clean out all the sludge and was wondering could this be because of no oil pressure in the camshaft adjusters ,that its sticking?

If anybody can assist me with this or had a similar issue...PLEASE HELP :banghead:


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## Tiros (Apr 4, 2014)

With the upper chain off, you should be able to rotate the cam adjusters back and forth with your hand. They both need to be CCW fully when you install the chain. Try and twist them to and see if they seem like they are binding.


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## wesley rsa (Aug 27, 2014)

Hello.

I did remove the upper timing chain. and I can rock them back and forth easily, so they don't seem to be binding. Before installing the chain I did pre load the adjusters as stated on a few online articles.

Well before I stripped the engine to remove the sludge I used vag com to test the solenoids and tested ok, I have applied voltage to the solenoids as well and they expand and contract as normal, I have stripped and cleaned them as well including the housing they bolt onto and cleaned the fine mesh filter. 

The motor as I said has been completely redone, and has not started as yet due to the slipping issue on the adjusters, only been rotated by hand so I presume there are quit a lot of components that have not been lubricated by the oil pressure, however all components were lubricated by hand to ensure no parts stick or grind on each other.

However I did find the following today, not sure if it could be the cause as I have not re assembled yet to test, but what I found was that the tensioner bolt the screws in on the side of the engine that pushes against the one guide was not bled as per posts on the web. It was able to be compressed by hand. After compressing the tensioner bolt in oil a few times until all the air bubbles came out it became much harder to compress by hand, much harder. So I am not sure if there wasn't enough pressure on the timing chain causing this issue.

So to recap, I rechecked all the timing marks, including the brass links on the timing chain and the arrows on the adjusters are corresponding to the notches on the housing unit. I have cleaned the camshaft adjusters as they look like they came out of the box and cleaned the solenoids and there housing unit. 

All the timing marks are correct and there is no slack on the timing chain, except where I must install the tensioner bolt. I have also pre loaded the camshaft adjuster as noted on a few online manuals.


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## Scott Fasser (May 7, 2013)

*Any Way to Fix Sticking Timing Actuators without Replacing?*

I'm having a similar issue with my 2003 Eurovan. I have 185,000 miles on the motor, timing chain/guides/etc. changed at 145,000 but I've had two episodes where when starting it falls out of idle and dies while throwing camshaft crankshaft incorrect correlation codes. My mechanics was able to fix by using a power probe to free up the actuators by applying power to the solenoid and flushing with clean oil. This fixes the problem for a short period of time. I'm hoping there is a more permanent fix but some magic fluid that can clean out the actuators without having to replace which are super expensive as you have to replace the whole assembly.

Thoughts?


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## mopakarim9800 (Jun 22, 2019)

PhReE said:


> Beagley, my car ran for years with the issue too, and it ran seemingly fine, and then replacing all the timing stuff fixed it. :screwy: Are you sure you dont have the cam sensors plugged in backwards? (the sensors have the same plug and can be reversed, the solenoids to control the sprockets do not)
> 
> Eurotech, you might be correct about the metal filings in the screen. I dont know how easy it is to take all that stuff apart tho.


It showed P0011 and P0340 codes. My car has 110K miles on it so I doubt the chains are stretched (and from what I understand the position of exhaust cam in relevance to crank would be off as well). I'm absolutely sure it was never apart so incorrect installation is ruled out as well.

Cleaning the adjuster is something that I think will help. I found one report of some oil pickup screen (somewhere around the adjuster) getting clogged with sludge causing the same issue. Do I have to remove the adjusters AND take them apart to clean them?

By the way the picture you posted definitely helps, do you have any more on the same topic? Thank you.


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## kgw (May 1, 2008)

Here is an issue that appears to be worsened by VW's "Long-Life Maintenance," timing chain issues that are likely due to gummed-up VVT valves and screens.


https://www.clubgti.com/forums/index...-there.287374/

The author of this post spent long hours on the German geek forums, and found out this is an issue with the vr6 motors, made worse by the oxymoronic "Long-Life Maintenance." First thing the locals (Germans, that is) do when the rattling starts, or the VVT code is set, is do some *serious flushing regimes*. In the majority of cases, the issue is solved by the flushing regime. Which is followed by much more frequent oil change intervals. 









BTW, chains don't stretch!


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## kgw (May 1, 2008)

Here is a pic of the back of the VVT housing:










The VVT valves, the screen and its location.


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