# VRT + Traction?



## -:VW:- (Jan 27, 2006)

So... I've had a question for all the high powered VRT guys for a while now. I see some of you going with the Stage III/IV fueling with 630cc injectors which is said to support 700HP. My question is... how the [email protected]#K are you possibly putting that to the ground? I mean my car at 6-7psi in 1st to 2nd is like I'm on ice with a Southbend Stage IV clutch a Peloquin LSD and Azenis tires, sure I run 16psi+ on the highway in 3rd-5th but rolling traction is a different story. So tell me what are you guys doing for traction? What am I missing?


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## 12V_VR (Aug 11, 2010)

What turbo do you have ? Get a bigger turbine housing, smoother boost delivery.


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## wabbitGTl (Jan 2, 2007)

Just because the fueling supports 700hp doesn't mean anyone is actually running that much power. I believe Tim's Lugtronic GTI is making power in that region, and it has trouble with 24.5 slicks on a prepped track.


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## -:VW:- (Jan 27, 2006)

Pffft a small one. Kinetic T3/To4E I did upgrade the housing to an .82 not sure if I can go any bigger on that turbo, I think there may be a 1.02 housing but I doubt it would make a difference. Is that the trick then? Running a Turbo that has enough "lag" to quell the spinning?


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## -:VW:- (Jan 27, 2006)

No, no, I know. I think the biggest Dyno sheet I saw was in the 500's. Still, on a FWD vehicle (regardless of turbo size as posted above) I just don't see it being usable.


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## wabbitGTl (Jan 2, 2007)

-:VW:- said:


> I just don't see it being usable.


Winner winner, chicken dinner.

Now, some of us are fortunate enough to run standalone or have a slightly more advanced approach to boost control. I can vary boost by gear, wheel speed, or even have a variable knob that I can crank up if I desire. Low boost for the lower gears where traction is an issue, and higher pressure once the tires can keep up. 

Hoping Paolo will chime in here, as his car is well over 500hp and 500tq and he seems to keep the tires pretty well planted. :beer:


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## therealvrt (Jul 21, 2004)

Apexi avc-r boost controller runs boost by gear. I had that on my car. 
Wastegate spring pressure in first, a little more in second and full boost in 3/4/5. 
A bit of a pain to program but once you have it done it works well. 
You can also pick up any boost controller with a scramble/overboost setting and use it to turn up the boost on hwy speeds by hitting a button


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

Paolo here lol  I don't really run all of that on the street only in low boost 20-21 psi... haven't done high boost yet this year...

My 1-2 gears are wastegate boost 15-16 psi
My 3-4 gears are a bit more 20-21

I've done 25 alittle bit early this year when Kevin and I are doing logs for my tune and it spun 4th gear pretty bad lol and I'm on Mickey Thompson et street drag radials all the time (225/50/15) and I do my logs on a long uphill road (check my youtube vids) noypiinct)

If I romp on it on 1-2 it will lay down long strips, some in 3rd as well and I have a .96T4 housing on my 6766 turbo. 

:beer:

for more traction I think boost by gear, better tires ( need to choose between a tire that's only great in a straight line and not so good in everything else vs a just ok in the straights and good at everything else) longer gears, limited slip dif and good suspension is needed and even will all of that it will still spin at lower gears lol as you can only put so much power through 225 width tiresopcorn:


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## -:VW:- (Jan 27, 2006)

How many sets of axles and or transmissions have you gone through?


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

I don't want to jinx myself but axles none yet and I'm rocking stock original axles when the swap was done in 99...

I've stripped 2 3rd gears back in 2009 both trans was stocl with peloquins, after the 2nd time I bought myself a newly rebuilt APtuning trans with the gforce gears and so far no problems in 3+ years n I have gone up in power as well...

(Knock on wood):beer:


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## meximan (Jan 25, 2011)

I'm interested in this as well...Not to many of us are using our cars for Drag or time attack, so wide stick tires arent an option when were trying to keep things low and tucked .. a 225 tires pretty beefy!

What would you guys say is a good HP range to keep traction on an mk3 using 205 tires? Is 350-400 whp too high of a goal To realistically put power to the ground...with a stock tranny and LSD?


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## -:VW:- (Jan 27, 2006)

I run 6-7psi in 1st and 2nd with 215 Azenis a Stage IV clutch and Peloquin LSD. Lowering front tire pressure to about 29-28psi helps but I still need to feather the throttle to keep it hooked up. If I mash it and go WOT forget it...


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## meximan (Jan 25, 2011)

dang and thats only at 6-7 psi? do you know what your numbers are?


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## -:VW:- (Jan 27, 2006)

The car dynod at 300WHP & TQ at 10psi with a very small and ****ty exhaust setup and stock compression. It now has 3" all the way back and is 9:1 compression, I'd guess it's a strong 250WHP+ & TQ at low boost levels.


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## wabbitGTl (Jan 2, 2007)

I was on a base tune running just wastegate pressure (10psi) and only revving to 5k I would have traction problems in 1st and 2nd, and it would get a bit squirrely in 3rd on a 215 tire in my Mk3.


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## meximan (Jan 25, 2011)

what cams are you guys running? ARP hardware as well im assuming...I was reading on some stock cam builds, and i was thinking stock cams = more bottom end TQ...bad idear for traction.


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## Gerg (Sep 15, 2006)

meximan said:


> what cams are you guys running? ARP hardware as well im assuming...I was reading on some stock cam builds, and i was thinking stock cams = more bottom end TQ...bad idear for traction.


I have a mk2 VR turbo with a bit over 370whp stock diff, TO4B old on center turbo, 3" catless exhaust, short runner intake and mk4 cams to compensate, my power comes on strong at 3600rpm

For traction I suggest having good motor mounts, control arm bushings and invest in a electronic boost controller to dial in lo/hi boost. I also hear that short runner intake manifolds remove torque to help trannys For the street I ran BFG KDW2 tires and on 14psi it would hook up decently in 2nd gear. now I run 195/45/16 conti's off a fiat500 and I find myself spinning a bit of 3rd on 18psi boost. That being said if I was to change my setup i'd run a bigger turbo, lsd and 262-268cams


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## VR6DPLMT (Jan 19, 2013)

From what you posted vs the answers some people have given you, I suggest a bigger a/r housing so boost comes on later. Possibly swap your T3/T4 out for a bigger T3/T4 or get a bigger turbo. The idea of varying boost levels at certain gears does pose a viable solution however how do you have to spend vs the cost of a boost controller? What is your budget? Another solution is getting some cams to help with the low end lack of traction. You seem to be running into an issue that a lot of VRT's ran into back in the 90s's, mainly too much torque in the low end. I believe one of the solutions offered by people will work.


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## -:VW:- (Jan 27, 2006)

I blame Kinetic for selling small turbos . Honestly I agree with increasing the turbine size to adjust the power band, however I do not think switching out cams will have as much of an effect as that will. I also think that there is no true answer to this issue, high horse power in a FWD street driven vehicle is a pretty large contrary of terms. Thanks for then input everyone.


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## lugnuts (Jul 26, 2001)

-:VW:- said:


> So... I've had a question for all the high powered VRT guys for a while now. I see some of you going with the Stage III/IV fueling with 630cc injectors which is said to support 700HP. My question is... how the [email protected]#K are you possibly putting that to the ground? I mean my car at 6-7psi in 1st to 2nd is like I'm on ice with a Southbend Stage IV clutch a Peloquin LSD and Azenis tires, sure I run 16psi+ on the highway in 3rd-5th but rolling traction is a different story. So tell me what are you guys doing for traction? What am I missing?


It's tricky to hook a lot of power on the street but 6-7 psi should be no problem at all. There could be issues with the car such as a full gas tank and 200# of stuff in the trunk, and/or a bad alignment or suspension bushings/components, etc.

Also driving has a lot to do with it. The car is much faster if you stay in the throttle at least part way and keep accelerating compared to the guys that shift the instant it spins and then lose 5 seconds on the big bog, followed by the spool-up/chassis upset/spin cycle all over again.

There is a lot that can be done on at least a set of drag radials. I help out on a Jetta VR6 that runs [email protected] on 205 DR's.


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

this is my car on 225/50/15 Mickey Thompson et street drag radials, tire pressure is always at 20psi ...


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## CerealKiler (May 10, 2011)

I'm brand new to the vrt scene, but I was burning out all the way up to third and I never went into fourth. I have a 1.06 GT35r and am using a peloquin diff and bfi stg2 mounts. Stock cams and tires here which is a big issue in obtaining traction! I'm still working on a solid tune with Kevin, but if you have the money and the time to go standalone, I recommend it! :wave:


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## dub_slug (May 12, 2008)

consider first and second useless  

glad she's running :vampire:


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## CorradoFuhrer (Mar 21, 2002)

PjS860ct said:


> I don't want to jinx myself but axles none yet and I'm rocking stock original axles when the swap was done in 99...
> 
> I've stripped 2 3rd gears back in 2009 both trans was stocl with peloquins, after the 2nd time I bought myself a newly rebuilt APtuning trans with the gforce gears and so far no problems in 3+ years n I have gone up in power as well...
> 
> (Knock on wood):beer:


this is sadly the truth - 3rd will strip very easily on high boost.


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## 24vGTiVR6 (Sep 14, 2010)

ebc w/ scramble mode set to low psi (or base wg spring pressure) helps a lot when launching.

once in third you can feather the throttle at full boost to stay in it. if you mash the throttle at higher boost you'll spin 90% of the time, doesn't matter what gear you're in. throttle in a VRT is not an on / off switch.

it's a little challenging, but do-able. not ideal by any means though.


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## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

things will be much better with a 225 drag radials on 12psi of air until 400WHP, T4 .81 back house or bigger with stiffer springs in the rear suspension.


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## Nevaeh_Speed (Jul 9, 2004)

Traction. Roll's only from 60 up in 3rd gear, and if you must launch do it in 2nd. Other than that fwd, just don't see it happening.


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

When I raced my friends 750rwhp hpf m3 from 50 to 150, I was spinning in 2nd but was accelerating hard on worn 225/50 Mickey Thompson drag radials @18 psi... full traction in 3rd&4th.. boost was at 22-25 depending on the gear... 

:beer:


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

May I add that I was ahead by a car or so at top of 4th gear... n the m3 had full traction as well on his 295 Nitto drags... he is switching to the 305 r888 soon though


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## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

I recently switched to 235/40/17 R888 from 205's for the street, and so far im pretty impressed. 1st gear 10psi ( ~370whp) with a long gear that goes to 50mph it hooks pretty damn well from a rolling start. I can probably get away with 15psi in 2nd gear and then 20+ for the remaining gears. Havnt done too much testing yet but will be doing that within the next few weeks.

Paolo im glad to hear you smoked your buddies M3  thats what I like to hear
Hopefully I'll have a few nice kills as well before the end of the season


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

Thanks ^  I told myself before the pull " I got this" lol I surprised myself being ahead from start to finish. .. 

The m3 is actually going back to lab 22 since hpf is out of business for a bigger 71mm turbo ( currently has the 6765bb) e85 fuel system plus the aem infinity management. .. n going for 900-1000+... crazy if u ask me

On the other hand ill be doing some upgrading myself this winter, ill be ready for the m3 next year  lol


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## marat_g60 (Mar 5, 2003)

Got any vids of the m3 race?
Are you running pump gas on 25psi? 
I think you're ready for the m3 already, just crank up the boost with some slicks and :wave: m3

edit: just watched the m3 runs on youtube, sick race :thumbup:


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

marat_g60 said:


> Are you running pump gas on 25psi? :


No, I run racefuel pretty much all the time, 93oct on wastegate boost only which I'm never on


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## Scooz (Sep 20, 2010)

I run about 10 psi on a 60 trim precision .63 A/R and I really only spin at WOT in first gear and even then I still accelerate pretty hard. Run 215/40's on an 8 inch wheel


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## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

was in Mexico for some runs last night  this is low boost and with very close to bald 2 years old 225/50/15 MT radials...





 
:beer:opcorn:eace:


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## PapioGXL (Jun 3, 2008)

PjS860ct said:


> was in Mexico for some runs last night  this is low boost and with very close to bald 2 years old 225/50/15 MT radials...


Mexico sure is a popular place to race these days.


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## EL DRIFTO (Jul 11, 2004)

got hx35 spools 3600, i keep it simple ~19psi stock wheels/tires & corrado trans, first is worthless, second i use a throttle spring which is choke line lol, third is perfect and if i'm in mexico i just use 4th on a roll & don't have to shift, coilovers adjusted so both wheels work


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## burnthesheep (May 4, 2012)

Greddy Profec B Spec II with the steering wheel mountable boost switch, or go full boost by gear.

I set mine to smoke 1st gear but hold 2nd on low boost, and then high boost holds on 3 and up.

I may lower it to hold 1st gear also, anything on the road can beat me to 45mph. It lights the tires up way too hard in 1st to get me into the 2nd gear powerband.


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## shmush (Dec 9, 2010)

a little off topic but saw it mentioned and every being vrt guys, I could use some help on finding a reliable tuner for my vrt 034 iic standalone+wiring the car. any help? thanks.


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## CerealKiler (May 10, 2011)

shmush said:


> a little off topic but saw it mentioned and every being vrt guys, I could use some help on finding a reliable tuner for my vrt 034 iic standalone+wiring the car. any help? thanks.


What all do you need help with? Are you doing the work yourself or looking to hire someone? I wired in my standalone myself.


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## shmush (Dec 9, 2010)

CerealKiler said:


> What all do you need help with? Are you doing the work yourself or looking to hire someone? I wired in my standalone myself.


ive a plug n play for mine 10 second wire job for engine harness, its the car itself, its in a mk1 chasis, that has the mk1 wiring in still, but I also have the vr6 harness for the car it came from, looking for some info on how to wire it easiest way possible, would rather a shop do it as ive been building this thing for 2 years and kinda losing steam to want to do the wiring of the car+ mix and matching the harnesses...or swap out the old one and put the whole vr one in and splice in lights. but def need a good trust worthy shop to tune and wire it


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## CerealKiler (May 10, 2011)

Hmmm I see. Yeah I couldn't help you much there at all as I did it all in a mkIV. And I'm not sure of good shops in your area... If no one here knows, post in your regional forum. Someone's bound to know a good place!


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## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

I don't know how other boost-by-gear solenoids and software works, but the boost-by-gear solenoid which came with my Lugtronics/VEMS standalone can be adjusted at every 500 rpm so you can sculpt the boost curve / torque delivery throughout the entire rpm range, allowing you to spool as quickly as the turbo will allow itself to, or as slowly as you would like it to. 

For the street, my first gear boost curve looks more like a diagonal line across the rpm range, second gear looks like a gentle slope (stalling the spool-up just a bit), along with a higher boost amount than first gear, and third gear and up looks more like a steeper slope (not stalling the turbo at all during spool-up), and with enough boost to max out the injectors at 85% DC. I set it up so that I can go 100% throttle in any gear at any rpm and I am just below the level of spinning the tires. I might have to back it down a little as it gets colder out though, but it's easy enough to do. Car also has an LSD and I also upgraded the kinetic .63 to a .81 hot-side, but even with those items, any actual ability to consistently eliminate wheel-spin was not realized until I got rid of my MBC and installed and started messing around with the boost by gear solenoid settings. 

For example, my first gear solenoid duty cycle looks like :

(these all start at 2k rpm and go up 500 rpm each block)

100%, 100%, 90%, 35%, 30%, 31%, 31%, 31%, 31%.....

while my third gear D.C. looks like :

100%, 100%, 100%, 58%, 59%, 59%, 59%, 59%, 59%.....


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## CerealKiler (May 10, 2011)

'dubber said:


> 100%, 100%, 90%, 35%, 30%, 31%, 31%, 31%, 31%.....
> 
> while my third gear D.C. looks like :
> 
> 100%, 100%, 100%, 58%, 59%, 59%, 59%, 59%, 59%.....


Wow, nice! I gotta play with mine a little more. I've had no time to do much of anything with school and work. It's been a crazy semester!


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## jcstomper (Feb 25, 2002)

My car has awd 

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk


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## CerealKiler (May 10, 2011)

vwmaniac16vr6 said:


> i run me7.1 from a mk4 vr6 and use the variable intake manifold solenoid as my boost controller. there are 2 seperate maps for adjust its duty cycle and my boost. its nice to tune you own oem ecu lol


That's pretty friken awesome! :thumbup:


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## CerealKiler (May 10, 2011)

vwmaniac16vr6 said:


> i run me7.1 from a mk4 vr6 and use the variable intake manifold solenoid as my boost controller. there are 2 seperate maps for adjust its duty cycle and my boost. its nice to tune you own oem ecu lol


That's pretty friken awesome! :thumbup:


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## CerealKiler (May 10, 2011)

vwmaniac16vr6 said:


> i run me7.1 from a mk4 vr6 and use the variable intake manifold solenoid as my boost controller. there are 2 seperate maps for adjust its duty cycle and my boost. its nice to tune you own oem ecu lol


That's pretty friken awesome! :thumbup:


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