# My APR Stage 3 dyno runs



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

The dyno runs speak for them selfs any way you look at them ( corrected ,uncorrected SAE)









































































_Modified by rracerguy717 at 6:35 AM 3-30-2008_

_Modified by rracerguy717 at 6:42 AM 3-30-2008_


_Modified by rracerguy717 at 6:45 AM 3-30-2008_


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## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

fk you were right bro!


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## Kid Hobo (Sep 4, 2005)

*Re: My APR Stage 3 dyno runs (rracerguy717)*

I dunno know why you're sad, maybe you might not be making the power numbers you had in mind in your head, but consistent runs and the **** eating grin on your face when you "drive" that thing probably tell a different story. no?


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: My APR Stage 3 dyno runs (Kid Hobo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Kid Hobo* »_I dunno know why you're sad, maybe you might not be making the power numbers you had in mind in your head, but consistent runs and the **** eating grin on your face when you "drive" that thing probably tell a different story. no?
 
Here the power they APR "SAID" it was making when i got it back and its not even close . 











_Modified by rracerguy717 at 6:11 AM 3-30-2008_


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## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

bob welcome to the club of APR satisfied customers








P.S Im trading missing hp for missing driveability

















_Modified by csih at 3:28 AM 3-30-2008_


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## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

That is the same exact looking dyno my buddy has. You have been talking with him Bob 06mkvgti. Sad part was we went from a third gear roll and i jumped ahead and i was waiting for him to blow by me but he never did. He is also having a high idle issue which is pretty annoying when driving with him.


_Modified by Branman at 7:15 AM 3-30-2008_


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## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

mine is close to yours Bob. I had 324 hp with 288 torque on dynojet sae corrected and smoothness 3.


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## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

sorry to say this bob but these graphs make me feel a little better so far since your car and mine are practically doin the same thing so at least i can lean more towards programming.


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## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

i def say programming. What are the odds that you guys both put the kits on and dynoing same numbers and both have high idle issues. Would be nice if it was as simple as a vacuum leak but im starting to think not.


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## brandon0221 (Mar 7, 2007)

*Re: (Branman)*








Damn I make more WTQ than stage 3!


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## [email protected] (Feb 9, 2001)

*Dyno Numbers*

Bob
Like I told you, APR will work with you to sort out the car. I will get the ball rolling with the plan we talked about tomorrow. I honestly know that when your car left APR it made the numbers we gave you on the dyno sheet. I personally confirmed it myself. Either way I will get you to the point you are completely satisfied.
Talk to you soon,
Stephen/APR


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (brandon0221)*

bob who was operating the dyno? maybe you need to learn how to drive and get better dyno numbers







just kidding it was nice to finally meet you yesterday and i am sure after those resulats apr will step up and fix your car http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

whos car gonna fix first?








P.S Either APR dont know what they re doing either someone tells lies







http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif 


_Modified by csih at 7:00 AM 3-30-2008_


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: Dyno Numbers ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Bob
Like I told you, APR will work with you to sort out the car. I will get the ball rolling with the plan we talked about tomorrow. I honestly know that when your car left APR it made the numbers we gave you on the dyno sheet. I personally confirmed it myself. Either way I will get you to the point you are completely satisfied.
Talk to you soon,
Stephen/APR
 
Yes you Did Stephen and I have a glimmer of hope that it will get straighten out now that your involved again . 
I just had to show your SUPER TUNER BRETT that things sometime are not what HE THINK they should be , espec when coming from the mouth of a longtime loyal APR supporter he needs to do more LISTENING not running off at the mouth








PLUS I need to keep heat on APR ass







so I can get this think fixed soon . 
Its been almost a ONE YEAR since the kit went on my car


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## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

*Re: Dyno Numbers (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
Yes you Did Stephen and I have a glimmer of hope that it will get straighten out now that your involved again . 
I just had to show your SUPER TUNER BRETT that things sometime are not what HE THINK they should be , espec when coming from the mouth of a longtime loyal APR supporter he needs to do more LISTENING not running off at the mouth








PLUS I need to keep heat on APR ass







so I can get this think fixed soon . 
Its been almost a ONE YEAR since the kit went on my car










Man thats not loyality thats called stupidity







i'm not willing to w8 that long


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## [email protected] (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: Dyno Numbers (rracerguy717)*

Bob
Lets just focus on getting your car sorted. I appreciate your frustrations and am frustrated myself. I will personally ensure you get handled.
I will get the guys geared up to work with you. I will speak with you tomorrow.
Stephen/APR


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## [email protected] (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: Dyno Numbers (csih)*

Fanis
I am really baffled at your actions since I saw you in Greece. I have e-mailed you but you have not responded. I have spoken to the APR importer in Greece who will be speaking with you tomorrow. If you really are interested in fixing your "issues" then you will need to take a step back and work with the importer in Greece. 
APR has been building the finest large turbo kits for VAG vehicles for the last 10 years. THe very kit you have is the same one developed for VW themselves. APR will not rest untill you are happy one way or the other.

Thanks,
Stephen/APR


_Modified by [email protected] at 7:43 AM 3-30-2008_


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## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

*Re: Dyno Numbers ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Fanis
I am really baffled at your actions since I saw you in Greece. I have e-mailed you but you have not responded. I have spoken to the APR importer in Greece who will be speaking with you tomorrow. If you really are interested in fixing your "issues" then you will need to take a step back and work with the importer in Greece. 
APR has been building the finest large turbo kits for VAG vehicles for the last 10 years. THe very kit you have is the same one developed for VW themselves. APR will not rest untill you are happy one way or the other.

Thanks,
Stephen/APR

_Modified by [email protected] at 7:43 AM 3-30-2008_


First of all check you email server cause i havent received a single email from you. The rest you got them in pm
P.S Dont use scare tactics to me i will post every single step we make regarding my Stage III issues.


_Modified by csih at 7:54 AM 3-30-2008_


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## zemun2 (Sep 2, 2004)

Stephen,
After this last csih statement I would just refuse to deal with him directly if I were you. If he didn't/doesn't appreciate effort you put into his issue (flying out to Greece), then why bother at all.
Just my .02


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## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

*Re: (zemun2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zemun2* »_Stephen,
After this last csih statement I would just refuse to deal with him directly if I were you. If he didn't/doesn't appreciate effort you put into his issue (flying out to Greece), then why bother at all.
Just my .02

You re funny








You re missing he hole point to this, The point is that mr Stephen and his gang dont like bad critics in these forums. They only like to hear how good are their products etc. When [email protected] happens they have to hear bad critics as well. Bare in mind that APR visited Greece not for me and my proof is that they were here for 5days and all they did is to devope code for Some Seat Cupra and leave (the easiest?) Stage III last day...So man if you dont know the whole story shut up and hear


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## [email protected] (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (zemun2)*

Zemun2
You must have been on the phone with my Greek Dist and myself.. : )
Stephen/APR


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (csih)*

Bob, 
Sent you a PM.


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## [email protected] (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (csih)*

Fanis
If you really have an issue and want a resolution you will have to work with us. If you dont and have another agenda then that will mean a different outcome. 
Its a shame that after all the time that has been devoted you feel that this is the best way to work with us??????
I will not get into internet fighting to solve issues.
Stephen/APR


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## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Zemun2
You must have been on the phone with my Greek Dist and myself.. : )
Stephen/APR

Did you get the last pm? or its like the emails you sent to me?


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## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Fanis
If you really have an issue and want a resolution you will have to work with us. If you dont and have another agenda then that will mean a different outcome. 
Its a shame that after all the time that has been devoted you feel that this is the best way to work with us??????
I will not get into internet fighting to solve issues.
Stephen/APR

Me either i have better things to do than fight with you sir http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif 
I feel betrayed from your words. Whatever you said to me in person prooved incorrect in just 24hours. So...nevermind do your job and i will do mine http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Feb 9, 2001)

*Re: (csih)*

I have recieved no PM's today.


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (csih)*


_Quote, originally posted by *csih* »_
You re funny








You re missing he hole point to this, The point is that mr Stephen and his gang dont like bad critics in these forums. They only like to hear how good are their products etc. When [email protected] happens they have to hear bad critics as well. Bare in mind that APR visited Greece not for me and my proof is that they were here for 5days and all they did is to devope code for Some Seat Cupra and leave (the easiest?) Stage III last day...So man if you dont know the whole story shut up and hear

Fani i am not a supporter of ANY company, and God knows i've bashed APR in the past about their marketing tactics, and the way they handle the competition, but i MUST tell you for the 1000th time you MUST stop being so arrogant, and stop expressing yourself like that in ANY forum.Maybe you are dissatisfied with the product APR has sold you, but that doesn't give you the right to respond in that manner, ESPECIALLY when help is offered.
Maybe you yourself don't really feel it, but you are coming across like a spoiled child, that just didn't get the Xmas present he wanted.Again, YES , you are right to complain, but the way you express your frustration has the EXACT opposite effect of what you are trying to accomplish.As we all see the kit APR sells isn't exactly perfect, and evn though they state the European version wasn't ready for release, it so seems, the US version wasn't either.
But...(and this goes to all that have the kit but aren't satisfied with it) you are stuck with it, and until a solution can be found, the best course of action would be to be cooperative.I'm sure APR wants to ensure its reputation and will do whatever possible to make it up to you.If the don't, then its more their loss then yours...Trust me....


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## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

*Re: (GolfRS)*


_Quote, originally posted by *GolfRS* »_
Fani i am not a supporter of ANY company, and God knows i've bashed APR in the past about their marketing tactics, and the way they handle the competition, but i MUST tell you for the 1000th time you MUST stop being so arrogant, and stop expressing yourself like that in ANY forum.Maybe you are dissatisfied with the product APR has sold you, but that doesn't give you the right to respond in that manner, ESPECIALLY when help is offered.
Maybe you yourself don't really feel it, but you are coming across like a spoiled child, that just didn't get the Xmas present he wanted.Again, YES , you are right to complain, but the way you express your frustration has the EXACT opposite effect of what you are trying to accomplish.As we all see the kit APR sells isn't exactly perfect, and evn though they state the European version wasn't ready for release, it so seems, the US version wasn't either.
But...(and this goes to all that have the kit but aren't satisfied with it) you are stuck with it, and until a solution can be found, the best course of action would be to be cooperative.I'm sure APR wants to ensure its reputation and will do whatever possible to make it up to you.If the don't, then its more their loss then yours...Trust me.... 

As i told to APR Greece my car is availble to them for reflashes etc. They dont like bad critics? fine i wil stop saying what is truth and start saying that im a happy customer with a perfect product and perfect support, Then you go buy the kit and ask me if im happy...


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## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_I have recieved no PM's today.

Do you mind to send me a pm?


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## GolfRS (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: (csih)*


_Quote, originally posted by *csih* »_
As i told to APR Greece my car is availble to them for reflashes etc. They dont like bad critics? fine i wil stop saying what is truth and start saying that im a happy customer with a perfect product and perfect support, Then you go buy the kit and ask me if im happy...

The point is not if you are happy or NOT.I'm pretty sure the WHOLE WORLD knows that by now, across at least 4 forum boards.
The point is that when someone is not satisfied, he protests in a civilized manner.And civilized is not the way you are doing it.If you went to the dealer and they told you "we are sorry but nothing can be done" , then just ask for your money back.But since they are at least willing to help you, you should show some cooperation.
No one forced you to buy that kit, ESPECIALLY since your car was already tuned and running fine.But you chose to get more power, and more power with non-OEM parts has its troubles.I agree with you that no product should be on the shelves without being perfect, but hey, even our STOCK cars don't seem to work right.
You were just one of the unlucky few..."pioneers" that took one step further...sooner.But you knew already something might not be working good in such a modification.And NO dealer is gonna tell you otherwise.
So what are your choices again ???


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## zemun2 (Sep 2, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Zemun2
You must have been on the phone with my Greek Dist and myself.. : )
Stephen/APR

As he said, don't let HIM use scare tactics in getting the issue resolved, let him deal with the dealer, you guys sell a lot of product and dealing with every customer directly is not possible.
I know a major VAG tuner that doesn't even list his Phone number on their site, so getting help directly from the tuner is above and beyond ...
As far as power issues with bob's car let me just say that in my cousins SRT4 stage 3 with toys a small exhaust leak cost him over 20 hp, so lack of power can be attributed to so many things...


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (zemun2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zemun2* »_
As far as power issues with bob's car let me just say that in my cousins SRT4 stage 3 with toys a small exhaust leak cost him over 20 hp, so lack of power can be attributed to so many things...

all the hardware on the car is fine, and it holds 19-20psi to redline, the only slight possibility to a hardware problem might be the maf sensor as it is not reading as many g/s as it should be.


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## zemun2 (Sep 2, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
all the hardware on the car is fine, and it holds 19-20psi to redline, the only slight possibility to a hardware problem might be the maf sensor as it is not reading as many g/s as it should be.

Holding 19-20 psi till redline doesn't mean theres no exhaust leak, whats his N75 duty?


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## csih (Aug 27, 2006)

*Re: (zemun2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zemun2* »_
As he said, don't let HIM use scare tactics in getting the issue resolved, let him deal with the dealer, you guys sell a lot of product and dealing with every customer directly is not possible.
I know a major VAG tuner that doesn't even list his Phone number on their site, so getting help directly from the tuner is above and beyond ...
As far as power issues with bob's car let me just say that in my cousins SRT4 stage 3 with toys a small exhaust leak cost him over 20 hp, so lack of power can be attributed to so many things...

i write in forums mainly for informational purposes. End of story i will w8 from gr distr. to call me


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (zemun2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zemun2* »_
Holding 19-20 psi till redline doesn't mean theres no exhaust leak, whats his N75 duty?

40% in the upper rpm range, where actual boost *is not* meeting requested boost..the duty cycle should be going up not down
and if it was an exhaust leak their would be physical signs of it or you would hear it


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## zemun2 (Sep 2, 2004)

*Re: (csih)*


_Quote, originally posted by *csih* »_
i write in forums mainly for informational purposes. End of story i will w8 from gr distr. to call me

All I'm saying is that if I was running APR and I went out of my way to help you out (flying to Greece from the states) and got the response you gave him I'd tell you to deal with the local dealer.
I have yet to hear any other tuner fly out 1/2 world to help customer out....
Do you get same service from VW? When was the last time VW flew out to assist you with issues?


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## zemun2 (Sep 2, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
40% in the upper rpm range, where actual boost *is not* meeting requested boost..the duty cycle should be going up not down
and if it was an exhaust leak their would be physical signs of it or you would hear it

Not necessarily, my exhaust leak could not be heard because engine idles high until it warms up and by then i wasn't able to hear anything, but every now and then i was able to smell it inside the cabin.
Did you check engine compression?


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (zemun2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zemun2* »_
Not necessarily, my exhaust leak could not be heard because engine idles high until it warms up and by then i wasn't able to hear anything, but every now and then i was able to smell it inside the cabin.
Did you check engine compression?
 
There nothing wrong with the engine or hardware , exhaust leaks , etc , its SOFTWARE IMO. 
I was told that they found the original problem was the waste-gate duty cycle was off but who knows .
The Actual doesn't even come close to request and WG duty is in the low 40% all other stage 3 logs Ive seen at the same RPM 6K is mid 55% and meet request . Plus the timing is only 6 degrees at best up top on my car other stage 3 are 9-12 degrees .


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## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

how much boost was it holding bob? my car hits 22 and then goes down to 20......you can see boost at the bottom of the dyno.
btw instead of using print screen click file -> export graph -> jpg and that will give u a nice ready picture file.


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## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

well hopefully bob when they get your software fixed they will save that file so i can get on my car to get it running the way it should be.


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (06MK5GTI)*

i am interested to see when another tuner company will be interested in taking a stage 3 car and making more aggressive software since so many cars are having issues


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## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

did you go to blown euroz today jc. i met prodigy today and was talking to him. was interested in seeing your car/setup


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## ShutItDown (Jun 14, 2007)

*dyno numbers*

those look like K04 numbers


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (06MK5GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *06MK5GTI* »_did you go to blown euroz today jc. i met prodigy today and was talking to him. was interested in seeing your car/setup

i forgot all about it until mark reminded me like an hour ago lol, i would have went too if i remembered all i did today was sit around the house


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## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

sho n go is coming up so maybe i will see you there


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## t3t41.8tgti (Oct 4, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_i am interested to see when another tuner company will be interested in taking a stage 3 car and making more aggressive software since so many cars are having issues









this is the only u.s. car that seems to be having a problem.


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## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

*Re: (t3t41.8tgti)*

no he is not the only one mine is right there with him


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (t3t41.8tgti)*


_Quote, originally posted by *t3t41.8tgti* »_
this is the only u.s. car that seems to be having a problem.

their are a bunch of other cars having issues also, they are just incontact and doing the same data logs bobg is doing for apr, they just aren't currently posting about their issues


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (06MK5GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *06MK5GTI* »_sho n go is coming up so maybe i will see you there

i should be their and i hope to be running my 12.80's


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_i am interested to see when another tuner company will be interested in taking a stage 3 car and making more aggressive software since so many cars are having issues









I don't think we have an issue making power. There are several 06's having great success and Bob G. seems to be the only with power issues at this time.
We are working with another client in the Northeast who we have identified a solution. I believe he dyno'ed on the Maha.
Let's not forget the host of positive dyno reports from all model years we've seen in the many other threads.


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

i should have worded that better, i know that 350whp is not lacking power..i should have said when will another tuner tune the kit for more hp and bring it up to the more "unsafe" area where us die hards like to push it


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I don't think we have an issue making power. There are several 06's having great success and Bob G. seems to be the only with power issues at this time.

 
Lets see Keith 
first it was my driving LOL 
second you can't discredit the install YOU GUYS DID THAT in house and had the car back 3 times .
Im surprise your not going to discredit the dyno or and operator??? don't even go there because I have a video and Sam was there taking the video .
Take responsibility that you guys screwed my install and Like I said from the begining tell the tuners to take there tuning skirts off and tune the freaking car LOL . 
im livid you would even open your mouth after these results . http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif
Take your lumps and learn from them and fix the damn car 
You want me to post a video of Revo making 355whp on pump and sounding very strong on stock motor ??.







Bob.G


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## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Bob G.'s 06 isnt the only one not making power. Mine is right along with his and looking at our dyno and logs they are pretty close apparently. I have nothing against apr or anyone that works there nor am i saying anything bad about them. i am running and trying to get as many logs as i can to send up to apr about my car but maybe Bob's car will be dealt with sooner and that new software tune be available for me.


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## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: (06MK5GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *06MK5GTI* »_Bob G.'s 06 isnt the only one not making power. Mine is right along with his and looking at our dyno and logs they are pretty close apparently. I have nothing against apr or anyone that works there nor am i saying anything bad about them. i am running and trying to get as many logs as i can to send up to apr about my car but maybe Bob's car will be dealt with sooner and that new software tune be available for me.

yeah i saw your 06 dyno and bobs dyno today and they are most def low on power....


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## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

I ran 06mk5gti's car a few times since the kit has been installed. Lets just say it was not very impressive at all, for the stage 3 that is. So i would hope there is more of an increase in power with this kit then that. I would def believe if he said it was a Apr S3 kit.


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
Lets see Keith 
first it was my driving LOL 
second you can't discredit the install YOU GUYS DID THAT in house and had the car back 3 times .
Im surprise your not going to discredit the dyno or and operator??? don't even go there because I have a video and Sam was there taking the video .
Take responsibility that you guys screwed my install and Like I said from the begining tell the tuners to take there tuning skirts off and tune the freaking car LOL . 
im livid you would even open your mouth after these results . http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif
Take your lumps and learn from them and fix the damn car 
You want me to post a video of Revo making 355whp on pump and sounding very strong on stock motor ??.







Bob.G


Bob,
I apologize that my statement seems to have upset you so. That was not my intention.
I am glad you were able to get a dyno done so we have some data to begin working with. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
As Stephen has relayed we are going to make sure your car is 100% regardless of the action necessary to correct it, whether it be software, etc.
Sure, would love to see the video!
George,
We are working aggressively this morning to find a resolution for you as well. Any logs you can get over to us would be most helpful. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_I ran 06mk5gti's car a few times since the kit has been installed. Lets just say it was not very impressive at all, for the stage 3 that is. So i would hope there is more of an increase in power with this kit then that. I would def believe if he said it was a Apr S3 kit.

Something is certainly not correct. I haven't seen logs of the 2, Bob's and George's but there must be an issue some where.


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

i would love to see some video footage too


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## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Something is certainly not correct. I haven't seen logs of the 2, Bob's and George's but there must be an issue some where.









Its gotta be something very simple, the car runs great other than the idle raising slightly at stops. The car is very driveable and drives like stock. If there was something major i doubt it would run that good. George does get the occasional misfire at idle maybe related to the high idle issue. Sounds like its more related to 06 cars for some reason, is there alot of differences in software than 07 cars. I pretty sure you said there are alot of changes for just standard stg1-2 06-07 cars. Anyway good luck hope you guys can figure it out http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

Keith, if you wanna send me some blocks to log that would help the most, i will try and help george with the logging since he has recently got vagcom software. If you wanna im me or just post up. Thanks


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Sure, would love to see the video!

 
Sam did the video tape work LOL 
Ill have him post them up tonight when he gets home from work .Bob.G


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

Bob, just out of curiosity, does the car feel less powerful now than when it left APR? I thought they built all of the 06 programming off of your car.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_Bob, just out of curiosity, does the car feel less powerful now than when it left APR? I thought they built all of the 06 programming off of your car.
 
Feels the same since it left APR the second time performance wise .
When I first got the car at Waterfest it was WAY OFF , they made it better for sure but no where it should be .
The third time they changed injectors because of cold start misfires .
My old 04 GLI APR Stage 3 + would give it a beat down for sure .







Bob.G


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_
Its gotta be something very simple, the car runs great other than the idle raising slightly at stops. The car is very driveable and drives like stock. If there was something major i doubt it would run that good. 
 
I agree IMO its something to do with wastegate duty cycle and the way DV is controlled . 
I have low MAF and timing readings and the timing is based off those numbers.
Its almost like you dont hear the boost building .
I checked and inspected the DV and its fine .







Bob.G


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_Keith, if you wanna send me some blocks to log that would help the most, i will try and help george with the logging since he has recently got vagcom software. If you wanna im me or just post up. Thanks 

I will send out an email with detailed instructions sir! Would you mind sending me one to remind me and so I can have your email? [email protected] Thanks!


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

you have email


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_3 best runs:
Jeff, Mark & Bob:









FYI my run shown the car sat and we let it cool down where Jeff's runs where done back to back, just want to point that out .

Arin also those match up your being very very generous to APR showing UNCORRECTED , SAE corrected numbers my best was 316whp , average run was 300-310 that's weak sauce http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif that's about 35-50whp and 40 TQ less than should be and this would still be considered a very safe tune .







Bob.G


_Modified by rracerguy717 at 8:54 PM 3-31-2008_[/QUOTE]
Taken from another thread it clearly shows how efficient this 2LTFSI engine really is. Jeff numbers with only 16psi ish boost on a GT 3071 and my low numbers with GT 2871 with no ill effect on spool and they where running less timing then my car runs







.
mmmm who did the Engineering here Keith???








IMO the GT 3076 would show even better result . 
The more efficient turbo comes with less back pressure , lower EGT, lower IAT, etc.
The 1.8T efficiency wise is alot less then 2L TFSI engine , plus you have a better combustion design, and precision of FSI espec in the fueling dept with this engine this all should lead to a TUNERS DREAM to tune so whats the story guys ???????







and don't tell me the rods until i see one break , higher compression , blah blah blah its getting old and my anger is building







.



_Modified by rracerguy717 at 7:05 AM 4-1-2008_


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

bob there is no need for sae unless u r trying to compare diff climates and elevations. if i can go back any time of the year and make 350whp then thats what matters. either way my correcrted was 341 i think


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_
FYI my run shown the car sat and we let it cool down where Jeff's runs where done back to back, just want to point that out .

Arin also those match up your being very very generous to APR showing UNCORRECTED , SAE corrected numbers my best was 316whp , average run was 300-310 that's weak sauce http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif that's about 35-50whp and 40 TQ less than should be and this would still be considered a very safe tune .







Bob.G


Taken from another thread it clearly shows how efficient this 2LTFSI engine really is. Jeff numbers with only 16psi ish boost on a GT 3071 and my low numbers with GT 2871 with no ill effect on spool and they where running less timing then my car runs







.
mmmm who did the Engineering here Keith???








IMO the GT 3076 would show even better result . 
The more efficient turbo comes with less back pressure , lower EGT, lower IAT, etc.
The 1.8T efficiency wise is alot less then 2L TFSI engine , plus you have a better combustion design, and precision of FSI espec in the fueling dept with this engine this all should lead to a TUNERS DREAM to tune so whats the story guys ???????







and don't tell me the rods until i see one break , higher compression , blah blah blah its getting old and my anger is building







.

_Modified by rracerguy717 at 8:54 PM 3-31-2008_

Unfortunately we have no plans to change the turbocharger on our Stage 3 at this time. I appreciate your advice!


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Fresh set of logs just done and sent to [email protected] APR lets see what he says .Bob.G


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

We just got 4 more logs tonight from george's car. This was a different dynojet than the last time he dynoed but the numbers were almost the same. I through a graph together of my car and his for ****s and giggles.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_We just got 4 more logs tonight from george's car. This was a different dynojet than the last time he dynoed but the numbers were almost the same. I through a graph together of my car and his for ****s and giggles.









George looks similar to mine dyno missing at 40-50 whp and 40-50wtq http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif weak sauce, APR Bringing VW BT kits BACKWARDS
APR dyno sheet they supplied me below says it was 350whp 320wtq CORRECTED WHEEL and im going to keep the heat on them until I receive every last one of those horses LOL


----------



## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

I sent my logs to apr so now they can compare ours but also hopefully find the resulting issue and get this straightened out cause i feel the need to go fast and soon hopefully.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_We just got 4 more logs tonight from george's car. This was a different dynojet than the last time he dynoed but the numbers were almost the same. I through a graph together of my car and his for ****s and giggles.









How much different did the 'corrected' numbers look?
BTW, thats a pain to read. At first I was like, 'how the hell did his gt2871 spool up and hit 300 wheel tq at 2900rpms. Then I realized it was your k03. 


_Modified by Arin at 8:29 PM 4-5-2008_


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

sorry bout that, first time i tried messing with the dynojet software.


----------



## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

Hey Bran can you post up two of the runs with corrected numbers and the air fuel ratio graph. Thanks.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (06MK5GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *06MK5GTI* »_Hey Bran can you post up two of the runs with corrected numbers and the air fuel ratio graph. Thanks.

George,
Isn't that going to come out great at 350whp+ corrected? Nice numbers! It doesn't seem to be down on power to me. SAE correction should bump it up right in line unless you are somehow below sealevel!


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
George,
Isn't that going to come out great at 350whp+ corrected? Nice numbers! It doesn't seem to be down on power to me. SAE correction should bump it up right in line unless you are somehow below sealevel!









we are at sea level. so SAE will bring us down. my uncorrected whp was 355 and corrected was 340


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (prodigymb)*

different turbo setup but i have one uncorrected 379whp pull and it was 356 corrected


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
George,
Isn't that going to come out great at 350whp+ corrected? Nice numbers! It doesn't seem to be down on power to me. SAE correction should bump it up right in line unless you are somehow below sealevel!









This is not a FLA / southern Dyno keith where you add power for correction LOL











_Modified by rracerguy717 at 10:46 AM 4-7-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

Blah, blah, blah. Corrected or uncorrected- it doesn't matter. The numbers are right on and within the margin of error (engine to engine variance, slight component differences, etc.) He put down 340hp at the wheels and 80 hp more than a car that is running exceptionally well and putting down 105.85 mph at the track (running our stage 2+ setup with fuel pump and a cat delete.) Clearly this car has plenty of power to put down some good numbers at the track.
Our power claims are 382hp flywheel on 93 octane. 340hp at the wheels is reasonable.
Bob, to say that your logic is poor would be the understatement of the century. You are making less than no sense.







You say that he is missing 40-50 whp. Adding this in would put his wheel horspower at 380 to 390 whp. This is higher than our CRANK ratings and is well over 400 hp at the crank.


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

how can you complain about getting 340whp at 93 pump?that gives only 10% of loss in the drivetrain etc...think that you should be super glad..


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (DK_GTI_racer)*

i think everyone is forgetting that this is bob's highest uncorrected number, he was averaging about 301whp corrected that day..everyone should see those charts








and don't even get me started on his corrected torque in the 260's










_Modified by [email protected] at 9:32 AM 4-7-2008_


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_i think everyone is forgetting that this is bob's highest uncorrected number, he was averaging about 301whp corrected that day..everyone should see those charts








and don't even get me started on his corrected torque in the 260's









_Modified by [email protected] at 9:32 AM 4-7-2008_

Jeff Read into where Brett's going with his numbers he ADDED 50whp for correction factor LOL








Go APR full of excuse's and all smoke and mirrors , the lowest REAL power figures in the industry http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: (06MK5GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *06MK5GTI* »_Hey Bran can you post up two of the runs with corrected numbers and the air fuel ratio graph. Thanks.









The torque is real low


_Modified by Branman at 3:04 PM 4-7-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_
Jeff Read into where Brett's going with his numbers he ADDED 50whp for correction factor LOL








Go APR full of excuse's and all smoke and mirrors , the lowest REAL power figures in the industry http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 


http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif to Bob G. - the lowest car I.Q. on the vortex. 
Bob, you have proven to me that you are without a doubt completely clueless. First of all, let me help you with your basic math skills. 382 - 339 = 43. 43 hp is a very reasonable driveline loss for 339 whp.
Bob, if you cannot take a car like that and run decent numbers at the track then you need to find a new hobby. He is making 75.45 hp more than a car that traps nearly 106. (I am sure in your hands you would find a way to only trap 103 though.)
DK_GTI_racer, you are right on. Fortunately most people have enough sense to read around bob and jc's drivel. Competent drag racers (e.g. theBox) have proven our claims at the track.
Oh, and btw, a stock R8 dynos within 20hp of our stage 3 kit. We have replicated this over and over on our equipment. Audi claims 420 hp on the R8 and even with a small additional loss added in for the AWD this more than justifies our stage 3 power claims. But silly Audi, they need Bob G. on staff to set them straight on correction factors!


_Modified by [email protected] at 12:39 PM 4-7-2008_


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

torque is very low


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (prodigymb)*

brett if bob's car is "good enough" as you say 1) i feel sorry for everyone of your custmers 2) you bring jr's car into this that has not run right since day 1 with the stage 3 and you guys have been trying to trouble shoot for over a month 3) how the hell do you explain bobs corrected pull of 301whp and 269 torque? those honestly exceptable numbers for you..i don't care if it is an apr kit, or any other brand i would be furious at those numbers http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif to Bob G. - the lowest car I.Q. on the vortex. 


Bottom line Brett this is far from what you SAID MY car made period!!!!!!
The dyno runs speak for them selfs any way you look at them ( corrected ,uncorrected SAE)


















_Modified by rracerguy717 at 6:45 AM 3-30-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_brett if bob's car is "good enough" as you say 1) i feel sorry for everyone of your custmers 2) you bring jr's car into this that has not run right since day 1 with the stage 3 and you guys have been trying to trouble shoot for over a month 3) how the hell do you explain bobs corrected pull of 301whp and 269 torque? those honestly exceptable numbers for you..i don't care if it is an apr kit, or any other brand i would be furious at those numbers http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif 

JC,
This is where the argument can begin in regards to SAE correction and how its applied.
I've been doing some research and SAE clearly states ambient correction factors should be turned off in regards to boosted engines, i.e. turbocharged or supercharged. Ideally, a specific fuel would be used as well to maintain fuel property consistency however there is no issue with using fueling correction strategies in turbocharged applications.
What I have been able to garner thus far is that turbocharged engines use their own pressure control strategy (map sensors) that significantly changes the model the dyno software encompasses making it very inaccurate. SAE Correction is accurate for normally aspirated engines whereas ambient pressures are able to be modeled and essentially predicted due to the static pressure nature of n/a engines. The boost pressure and therefore actual charge pressure or inlet pressure vaires based on the boost control strategy in the ecu. The ramp up of boost pressure, boost onset, is different in almost every turbocharger application and thus can't be accurately accounted for by the dyno software.

SAE further expands that a correction factor of more than 6% should never be applied and that SAE correction should never be used for altitude de-rating.
So my summation is that SAE Correction of ambient conditions should never be used for boosted engines and should also never be used to de-rate ambient conditions.
Therefore, the applicable comparison of Bob G.'s dyno runs to our dyno runs would be with ambient condition correction off and either the same fuel or allowance of fueling correction only.
To expand upon that further, to match our dyno sheet which did have SAE Correction applied, Bob's uncorrected numbers should match those uncorrected numbers.
Uncorrected Bob's best pull was 336hp which with a 12% drivetrain loss equates to 381.8 crank hp. His best uncorrected tq was 287 or 326 crank hp. We advertise 382 crank hp and 332 crank torque. Looks like Bob is missing .2 hp and 6 lb ft with a proper SAE sponsored dyno comparison.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

ok thats all fine and dandy, but how do you explain me an jr dynoing on the same dynojet dyno i make 15whp more than jr, a few days later i dyno with bob and we are both on the same dynojet dyno, i make 1whp more than what i did with jr..but i make 55whp more than bob







numbers dont lie, their is something wrong with bobs personal car brett seems to think i want to "attack" apr as a company but you know as well as i do keith i respect and do like apr product, it is not personally for me as i like to push things to the extreme but i do know their is 100% an issue with bobs car and i am not attacking apr but rather defending bob personally in his quest to get the power he should have


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

and by the way my numbers mean nothing except for comparison between jr's car and bob's car


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Uncorrected Bob's best pull was 336hp which with a 12% drivetrain loss equates to 381.8 crank hp. His best uncorrected tq was 287 or 326 crank hp. We advertise 382 crank hp and 332 crank torque. Looks like Bob is missing .2 hp and 6 lb ft with a proper SAE sponsored dyno comparison.


 
What does YOUR DYNO graph you supplied me with read Keith ??? corrected yes ?? WHP??? it clearly states it on the chart , did APR fabricate MY dyno chart???


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Hey J.C., I am not saying Bob's numbers that he posted are acceptable (I was referring to the other numbers posted.) Bob G.'s dynos are the only ones that don't hit the numbers. Our power figures have been independently verified by a number of people on these forums. The cars are fast at the track- we have run 110+ mph as have others.
There a few small issues that don't have anything to do with power output or drivability that APR is working on resolving. This is the ONLY turn-key product out there in production and overall it is working very succesfully.
When Bob G's car left the APR facility it was performing flawlessly. I drove the car, as did Joel, Mike, Steve, and others from APR. His number were right in line with what everyone else is making.
What I do know about Bob G is that he likes to 'touch things'. I cannot say what Bob may or may not have done to his car since it left our shop. (I do know that it arrived back at our shop with the diverter valve unplugged.) Bob also likes to 'lead' a problem- instead of providing unbiased, untainted information he presents information in a way that attempts to 'lead' us to a given conclusion. For this reason, I cannot even trust the dyno figures that he has presented.
To me, the problem with Bob's car is clearly one of the following:
1. Someone screwed around with things in the engine bay since it left APR.
2. There is an undiagnosed mechanical failure.
3. There is absolutely nothing wrong with his car.
Personally, I think scenario 1 is the most likely at this point followed by scenario 2 as a result of scenario 1 or scenario 2 as a result of some other condition. Scenario 3 is also a very plausible scenario. Unfortunately, Bob has resigned himself to thinking it is none of these and there is a problem with the software. With this position we aren't able to provide him much assistance as his 'conclusion' is in stark contrast to what we know as fact. Unlike him, though, we are able to support our position with a mountain of evidence. He seems to think that we don't want to blame the software for some strange reason. If the facts pointed to the software then I would state that. I couldn't care less if it was a problem with the software or a hole in a hose causing the problem- if there is a problem I will state what the evidence suggests as the problem. In this case 'software' is simply the absolute wrong conclusion.
For his situation to get resolved, one of the parties will have to budge. If we do (this already has happened), then it will simply mean many expensive engineering man-hours wasted on diagnosing a phantom software problem with no ultimate resolution. What Bob G doesn't understand and will have to if he wants his car 'fixed' is that we are the experts with these things and he needs to be following our lead on resolving things not the other way around.


_Modified by [email protected] at 1:52 PM 4-7-2008_


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

To me, the problem with Bob's car is clearly one of the following:
1. Someone screwed around with things in the engine bay since it left APR.
2. There is an undiagnosed mechanical failure.
3. There is absolutely nothing wrong with his car.
.
 
More Excuse's Brett ? how many is that ?? 
" it can't be my software/tune " LOL








The car has not been touched by me or anyone else


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_ He seems to think that we don't want to blame the software for some strange reason. * If the facts pointed to the software then I would state that.* I couldn't care less if it was a problem with the software or a hole in a hose causing the problem- if there is a problem I will state what the evidence suggests as the problem. In this case 'software' is simply the absolute wrong conclusion.
 
Brett have you looked at the logs I sent Mike??? and have you looked at George's Logs( the other 06 stage 3 owner ) ??? you don't need to be and engineer to figure out they are totally different .Bob.G


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

I don´t want´to but in or anything - just trying to help.
in this post u seem more then happy with the car, and states its FAST and you sound like u won the lottery - i felt that way to after installing APR s3+







, but anyway - is it not more likely if the car runs different then when u recieved it, that something has happend since u got the car, not APR related?...it sounds like APR really want´s to help u out - but wants to be in the driver seat in order to fix problems, why not give them the try?....maybe you have, I don´t know.
just thinking that since so many have the numbers they should with the kit, something is different maybe not APR related in this case....
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3422488
I would thinkt there is a reason why VW decided that APR should make their Sema car - some of those reasons must because they are known for best quality and stock like BT setups - so in my Book the last place i would start looking for errors in regards of dyno numbers would be APR - but hey i don´t know your entire story. hope some of this was helpful...anyways good luck.


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

The only excuse is you Bob. You are impossible to work with and your actual knowledge is but a tiny fraction of what you think you know. Your conclusions are erroneous and incompletely drawn. Like I said, I couldn't care less if the 'problem' (be it phantom or not) is the software. If it was the software we would make a quick fix and close the issue.
If there is a problem with the software then why does everybody else make the numbers?
Any why are you talking about logs? We have looked at your logs and they only further support our conclusion. You have provided nothing to demonstrate to us otherwise, despite your refusal to run and collect the information as directed by our engineering staff.
Thanks for responding and further proving my points. I regret that I see us no closer to a resolution.


_Modified by [email protected] at 2:38 PM 4-7-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

brett is the flash between 2006 and 2007 car 100% the same flash, i only ask because the only customer cars backing up your data are 2007 car to my knowledge, IMO i don't care what part of the country you are in if the kit is an advertised 350whp then every car should make that power or come very very very close


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
What does YOUR DYNO graph you supplied me with read Keith ??? corrected yes ?? WHP??? it clearly states it on the chart , did APR fabricate MY dyno chart???

You knew very well what your numbers were uncorrected. Here is a quote from you from ~6 months ago.

_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
Raw numbers are 328WHP with 93oct in the tank dyno in 100-106 degree weather 110 % humidty this is UNCORRECTED #'s .







Bob.G


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
You knew very well what your numbers were uncorrected. Here is a quote from you from ~6 months ago.


Brett APR supplied me with this dyno chart when I p/u my car up and it clearly states CORRECTED W/TQ and WHP, is there and engineering formula that im missing too interpret it LOL


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_
Brett APR supplied me with this dyno chart when I p/u my car up and it clearly states CORRECTED W/TQ and WHP, is there and engineering formula that im missing too interpret it LOL


Err, no. What is your point? Those were corrected numbers. You also had the uncorrected numbers as you can see from your quote. Do you understand the basic differences between corrected and uncorrected numbers and wheel figures and crank figures? Do you have a point or are you just asking for clarification? You seemed to understand it, at least on a basic level, 6 months ago. 
Your quote again:

_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
Raw numbers are 328WHP with 93oct in the tank dyno in 100-106 degree weather 110 % humidty this is UNCORRECTED #'s .







Bob.G


----------



## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

Man this thread blew up didnt it. Now i am not too upset about the hp but how accurate is the dyno i was on? not sure--- Ngp's dyno gave a different hp and torque---had lower hp but with higher torque. I am alittle upset however that i cant break 300 wtq and that a stage 2.5 car(branman) can stay with me all the way thru 3rd and then i pull away slowly when we shift to fourth. Also had a chipped allroad take me in fourth to 7000 --- i almost caught up to him---No other mods done to allroad besides chip that is embarrasing for me to put out 6k and have this happen. Now other then that i do have high idle issues, and misfires once in awhile (soft codes) at idle. Boost guage spikes at 20 then settles around 15-17 and i also go into limp mode for overboost protection in 6th gear. so hopefully a new version of 06 software is going to be released to deal with some issues.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (06MK5GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *06MK5GTI* »_Man this thread blew up didnt it. Now i am not too upset about the hp but how accurate is the dyno i was on? not sure--- Ngp's dyno gave a different hp and torque---had lower hp but with higher torque. I am alittle upset however that i cant break 300 wtq and that a stage 2.5 car(branman) can stay with me all the way thru 3rd and then i pull away slowly when we shift to fourth. Also had a chipped allroad take me in fourth to 7000 --- i almost caught up to him---No other mods done to allroad besides chip that is embarrasing for me to put out 6k and have this happen. Now other then that i do have high idle issues, and misfires once in awhile (soft codes) at idle. Boost guage spikes at 20 then settles around 15-17 and i also go into limp mode for overboost protection in 6th gear. so hopefully a new version of 06 software is going to be released to deal with some issues.

Did you read the posts from the "tuning God " Brett said there nothing wrong with our cars there perfect, just like him LOL


----------



## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

I would like to be with the other stage 3 guys on hp and wtq but i doubt i will get lower then 12.9 with drag radials


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_
Did you read the posts from the "tuning God " Brett said there nothing wrong with our cars there perfect, just like him LOL










OK, great! It looks like we are making some progress. Bob has it figured out now!


----------



## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

now on another note is there a 100 octane file for the 06's yet cause when i sent my ecu i asked for it but didnt get it. I thought it was available.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (06MK5GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *06MK5GTI* »_now on another note is there a 100 octane file for the 06's yet cause when i sent my ecu i asked for it but didnt get it. I thought it was available.
 
Don't even go there LOL 
Im going to need a separate thread for the NO RACE GAS program I was promised , Brett said he was working on LOL 
Basically where SOL








1) weak 93 pump gas program with excuses








2) No 100 octane program


----------



## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

i guess i should of bought a sti or evo


----------



## ShutItDown (Jun 14, 2007)

*Re: (06MK5GTI)*

bob, you are acting like a little baby. grow up. make your own god damn software then.


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

No one said that you guys can't get a race program and if they did they were mistaken. I don't know if it has been loaded on the server for general consumption yet or not but it can be. This is not a balls-out race program (as that would snap your rods relatively quickly) but it will give you a nice HP increase. Search the forums to see some figures. 06MK5GTI, just contact Keith or someone else in sales/customer support and they will hook you up.


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_No one said that you guys can't get a race program and if they did they were mistaken. I don't know if it has been loaded on the server for general consumption yet or not but it can be. This is not a balls-out race program (as that would snap your rods relatively quickly) but it will give you a nice HP increase. Search the forums to see some figures. 06MK5GTI, just contact Keith or someone else in sales/customer support and they will hook you up.

i want some 100 octane action too


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (ShutItDown)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ShutItDown* »_bob, you are acting like a little baby. grow up. make your own god damn software then. 

Sorry its coming across like this BUT, I payed good money with no questions asked back 1 year ago and I expect it to run and PERFORM correctly . 
Its called accountability and Ill ride there ass until I get them to fix it, if not I have a plan B and its not going to be pretty , at least for APR LOL


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 19, 2006)

*Re: (06MK5GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *06MK5GTI* »_now on another note is there a 100 octane file for the 06's yet cause when i sent my ecu i asked for it but didnt get it. I thought it was available.

If you are interested in the Race Gas file, I will be more than happy to assist you. Please contact me http://****************.com/smile/emarrow_right.gif 800-680-7921 http://****************.com/smile/emarrow_left.gif , and reference that I responded to a thread on vortex. 
Like Brett said, It may not be available on the server yet, but I will be more than happy to get you setup with the file.


----------



## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Thats cool. i asked for it when i sent my ecu cause i was told it was done but when the guy called me from apr when he was going to update it he said it wasnt out yet. Does the ecu have to be sent out again or will any local apr dealer be able to do the flash cause i paid 120 dollars total to have it sent to apr and then back to me. Thankyou Andy and Brett for answering this question. And I am not worried about the rods cause they will be taken care of shortly.


_Modified by 06MK5GTI at 6:15 PM 4-7-2008_


----------



## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

*Re: (prodigymb)*

it is only for us 06 guys so we have a chance to run with the 07's jk


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: (06MK5GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *06MK5GTI* »_it is only for us 06 guys so we have a chance to run with the 07's jk


----------



## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

Where did the 06 software or the first stage 3 software get based off of---What car. it is alittle odd that bob and i have some issues that are the same and all. Just curious if our logs were compared or not by anyone at apr cause we should be the same but he is lagging alittle bit behind.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (06MK5GTI)*

Didn't they make the files on bob g's car, and then apply it to their sema and the GTI-R car? Thought the file was called Stage_3_blahblahblah_bob_g.


----------



## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

that's what i thought. Maybe they changed it or something.


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

the problem is that the computer that the screen shots are posted from in the first post is running vista!


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_the problem is that the computer that the screen shots are posted from in the first post is running vista!

My mac book runs vista ultimate and leopard.


----------



## Revo Technical (Jan 9, 2003)

My macbook pro hates vista with a passion. So do I.


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: 06MK5GTI*

Just wondering why 06MK5GTI is upset about his numbers? 340whp on 93 - is danm good and within APR statements....
Bob i apparently missed the first time that u stated MAF readings to be very low, ever tried changing MAF?, and have u checked for any leaks around intake and stuff, how about DV?....don´t see the point in this bashing APR stuff...
U posted earlier in a another thread when u got the car from APR how alive and fast it was, have u forgotten that?, how can such late "own" dyno test be the reason of bashing?...something has clearly happend after u have driven the car for a while, since APR was able to make 350whp on dyno for you.

Don´t see the point in discredit that dynograph - if u took the car directly from when APR lefted it to u(where u felt the car was FAST) and on a dyno - and the car misperformed - then i would understand - but you have driven the car for a while before dynoing...
the DV could be a gonner, leaks and what have u....think u should start looking at HW related instead of SW and bashing -that don´t fix anything - look at how many APR guys chime in and say they wan´t to help u - honestly for the beaf u dish out on them i dont´understand they bother..
In my openion your not working with APR to fix it, just bashing and not letting them help u out...in fact 06MK5GTI is a solid proof that 06 versions also pulls down the 340whp...
Anyways good luck again...


_Modified by DK_GTI_racer at 5:34 PM 4-7-2008_


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
My mac book runs vista ultimate and leopard. 

but i bet i can guess which one it likes better


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (mwwVW)*

are you missing that it is 339 uncorrected, if it were corrected it would be 32x whp and 270-280 torque


----------



## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

327 and 285. never said was unhappy about hp would like it to be 345-355 like others but torque should be 310-325. High idle cels get old quick and misfires from idling and limp mode in 6th. so i have nothing against apr- i sent them a few logs that they want and will send them any other logs that they would like. I just want to get the car running 100% and as soon as possible. 


_Modified by 06MK5GTI at 9:22 PM 4-7-2008_


----------



## ShutItDown (Jun 14, 2007)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
My mac book runs vista ultimate and leopard. 


boot camp http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
i personally triple boot vista, xp, and ubuntu.


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: (06MK5GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *06MK5GTI* »_327 and 285. never said was unhappy about hp would like it to be 345-355 like others but torque should be 310-325. High idle cels get old quick and misfires from idling and limp mode in 6th. so i have nothing against apr- i sent them a few logs that they want and will send them any other logs that they would like. I just want to get the car running 100% and as soon as possible. 

_Modified by 06MK5GTI at 9:22 PM 4-7-2008_

it will be so worth it when it is, i went out to the local _track _sunday and man this thing is fast and left alot of people upset. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## shortydub (Oct 13, 2004)

*Re: (ShutItDown)*

boot camp only allows for one os running at a time. you must be thinking of parallels or vmware fusion


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

I think im going to run george's car down the track for him to get a good comparison. Im gonna throw my DRs on his car and give her hell.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (shortydub)*

Maybe Bob, 06mk5gti and some of the 07 guys can post up a few logs for us to compare?


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

i have 06mk5gti's logs how do you want them. they are currently in a csv file


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (Branman)*

csv is fine. I can take a look at them. If I have time and if others send me their logs, I can overlay them. That is my official vortex job.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

4 logs are sent


----------



## Binary Star (Mar 27, 2001)

*Re:*

aaahhhh... just like the good ol' days from 1.8T forums.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_are you missing that it is 339 uncorrected, if it were corrected it would be 32x whp and 270-280 torque

JC,
I thought we discussed already why you can't correct down for ambient and why ambient correction factors are not applicable to boosted engines.
SAE Ambient Correction is non applicable on turbocharged cars. What you are saying is exactly like saying, "yeah but if you manipulate the dyno setup by 6% it will make lower numbers". That's obvious so I am unsure of your point in bringing up SAE Correction repeatedly.


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_I think im going to run george's car down the track for him to get a good comparison. Im gonna throw my DRs on his car and give her hell.
now thats what im talkin about man!! honestly with 80 more whp than ur car with u drivin on the same tires.....that car should go 12s


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

Thats what im going for


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (Branman)*

here is a crazy graph from the first and third log you sent me. I didnt look at the others.
For boost I subtracted 1000mbar.
















* correction factors for all cyl's were on the first axis but they were all 0's so they overlap.


_Modified by Arin at 10:51 AM 4-8-2008_


----------



## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

What air fuel ratio should the stage 3 kit be at. I was figuring 11.5 to 12. All my dyno runs are showing 12.3-12.5. Prodigy or Box what is yours running at.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (06MK5GTI)*

ProdigyMB was read from the dyno sniffer, which isnt all that accurate at times I hear. Although he doesnt have a catalytic converter (which will messup readings on the dyno with a sniffeR), half the runs were preformed with an after downpipe dump valve.

Here is what Joel said about Air fuel ratio on an s3 k04 kit:

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_ Fueling is typically (and should be) mapped according to what A/F the driver desires and also what A/F is necessary to maintain safe EGTs. Obviously the driver desires lean best torque some where near 12.7:1 A/F. Unfortunately, this is quite unrealistic on a highly boosted car due to excessive temperatures. So, you'll notice while logging A/F the ratio will continue to get lower the longer you push your car (there is however a minium ratio set in place by the tuner). This particular run is a hot run where the vehicle is running an A/F that is lower than driver desired yet the horespower is still there. On cooler runs where the car was able to achieve a slghtly leaner mixture the power was obviously slightly higher. 
To sum things up, there are multiple protections built in the software to prevent excessive EGTs. As you can see above, the fueling kit is completely neccessary to run that A/F. Also, to clarify one point, there is not and cannot be a large delta between driver desired fueling and EGT protection fueling because it would be physically noticeable when the maps switched. So, although mid to high 10s is what you'll see in a hot circumstance low 11s could be expected on a cooler run.




_Modified by Arin at 7:45 PM 4-9-2008_


----------



## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

Cool. Thank you for the post Arin. I was looking at the logs and dyno sheets and was just curious.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (06MK5GTI)*

bob you hear anything back? your car getting fixed or is everyone still in denial about your car making less power than every other car??


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_bob you hear anything back? your car getting fixed or is everyone still in denial about your car making less power than every other car??

No news with APR, plan B maybe coming soon enough.







Bob.G


----------



## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

hopefully something gets done for him. i am curious on my car---warmer weather has kicked up the high idle issue.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (06MK5GTI)*

FWIW I drove in 3 06 APR Stage 3 cars this past weekend and didn't think they were 'slow' at all.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (Arin)*

Also, FWIW, I'm pretty sure APR sprinkled crack on the seats or something because after being in all 3 06's I want it on my car.


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_Also, FWIW, I'm pretty sure APR sprinkled crack on the seats or something because after being in all 3 06's I want it on my car.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_Also, FWIW, I'm pretty sure APR sprinkled crack on the seats or something because after being in all 3 06's I want it on my car.

Arin you Judge performance from your customer cars not SHOP cars .
I haven't seen 1 customer 06 car showing the results the 07-08 cars do and looking / judging at my logs and another 06 car ,and dyno from both of them also .







Bob.G


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_
Arin you Judge performance from your customer cars not SHOP cars .


Bob, I agree, but I added what I experienced '*For What It's Worth*, which may or may not be worth anything.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (Arin)*

bob what does your car matter? their cars run good







your car is good enough remember


----------



## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

todays weather hit 72-73 degrees here and the car felt a little punchier then before in third and holds 18-19 when i get on it in third, fourth felt alittle better but hits 19-20 then drops to 16-17


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (06MK5GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *06MK5GTI* »_todays weather hit 72-73 degrees here and the car felt a little punchier then before in third and holds 18-19 when i get on it in third, fourth felt alittle better but hits 19-20 then drops to 16-17

you need to get some logs up, knowing what boost you run is no good with out knowing what is being requested


----------



## [email protected] (Jul 30, 2007)

*Re:*

Bob:
PM Sent.
George:
PM Sent.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_Bob:
PM Sent.
George:
PM Sent. 


I don't get a pm, I feel left out!


----------



## mwwVW (Mar 31, 2003)

*Re: Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I don't get a pm, I feel left out!









your pm's don't work for $hit anyway


----------



## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: Re: (mwwVW)*

...to be continued?


----------



## iThread (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: Re: (mwwVW)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mwwVW* »_
your pm's don't work for $hit anyway


----------



## 08 passat turbo (Mar 29, 2008)

*Re: Re: (iThread)*

not gettin apr software.....







almost did..lol


----------



## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

i was going to do some more logs to see if there is a difference between those and the older ones. just put the vf engine mounts in and hpa ss today.


----------



## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

*Re: Re: (08 passat turbo)*

there is no reason for you to not want to get the apr software. it has and does work good on alot of vehicles. so far the issues that bob and myself have are both 06 cars. It is your choice though on what you want


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: Re: (06MK5GTI)*

Worked on this one 
Photograph by Arin Ahnell

[picture whorage]


----------



## TheBox (Jul 20, 2003)

*Re: Re: (Arin)*

sexy its thats now my wallpaper


----------



## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: Re: (TheBox)*

Also mine


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

ddaaaym Arin. that HDR is niiiiice man !!!


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (prodigymb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *prodigymb* »_ddaaaym Arin. that HDR is niiiiice man !!!

Thanks man. I have so many more shots I want to post process, but here are 10 from the weekend:
http://www.arinahnell.com/photos/20080412/


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

yeah i saw . the s4 looks ridiculous !!!


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

*Re: (prodigymb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *prodigymb* »_yeah i saw . the s4 looks ridiculous !!!

^--- LOOK Keith, you may have a buyer!!! LOL


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
^--- LOOK Keith, you may have a buyer!!! LOL

not unless it has the APR prototype SC kit on it, otherwise those things are _slow_


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

*Re: (prodigymb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *prodigymb* »_otherwise those things are _slow_

They are not terribly impressive, that is for sure...


----------



## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

I wouldn't call them slow. I'd call them slow for the money you pay for it.


----------



## lokeh (Jul 1, 2004)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
Thanks man. I have so many more shots I want to post process, but here are 10 from the weekend:
http://www.arinahnell.com/photos/20080412/


nice work man!


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: (BumbleBeeJBG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_I wouldn't call them slow. I'd call them slow for the money you pay for it.

i would


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (prodigymb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *prodigymb* »_
i would









straight line, blah, blah. catch me on a road course. 3 diffs, ohlin's, 6 piston monoblocs, and the same hp as you + 400 lbs. you do the math!


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
straight line, blah, blah. catch me on a road course. 3 diffs, ohlin's, 6 piston monoblocs, and the same hp as you + 400 lbs. you do the math!








 hardly 360whp in that thing







and yeah u def need those 6POT to stop that huge car








with full bolt ons

















not sure where diff comes from. but ive seen some low numbers from ths 4.2 s4 


_Modified by prodigymb at 2:47 PM 4-17-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (prodigymb)*

is stopping an s4 like stopping this thing


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (prodigymb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *prodigymb* »_ hardly 360whp in that thing







and yeah u def need those 6POT to stop that huge car








with full bolt ons

















not sure where diff comes from. but ive seen some low numbers from ths 4.2 s4 

_Modified by prodigymb at 2:47 PM 4-17-2008_

same bhp, not whp as oh yeah, mines has all four wheels making traction.








Are we really arguing this though? I mean, I'm a GTi guy hardcore, had quite a few but the S4 allows for much higher entry and exit speeds in the corners. it would be quite fun actually as I'm sure it would be back and forth.
you will fly by on the straights but as soon as its time to hit the brakes, I will fly by you and then be up front until the next striaght.
and my 6 pots do stop me quite nicely, I am positive I am on par or better than a GTi with oem's for sure. seriously, abs at 160mph is fun.


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

fine u sold me. wanna trade


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Roughly 5 minutes after arriving at APR I thought Keith was going to kill me in the S4. He waited the last second to avoid certain death which left a girl in the middle of our lane of travel crapping her pants for her wrong move while on her cell phone! Those brakes are pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty good. ;-)


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (prodigymb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *prodigymb* »_fine u sold me. wanna trade









your gti and how much $?


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_Roughly 5 minutes after arriving at APR I thought Keith was going to kill me in the S4. He waited the last second to avoid certain death which left a girl in the middle of our lane of travel crapping her pants for her wrong move while on her cell phone! Those brakes are pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty good. ;-)


sorry Arin. I was trying to leave an impression on the young lady that she should be more careful.


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

sorry Arin. I was trying to leave an impression on the young lady that she should be more careful.

No need to apologize. I packed extra underwear.


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
your gti and how much $?

hehe i was gonna ask you the same thing








its got a nice turbo kit on it though !!!


----------



## DanGB (Jul 23, 2006)

*Re: (prodigymb)*









Plenty of power, just waiting for them to sort the issues out now








early 2006 BWA engine.


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

what are the two runs, what was the difference in power?


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

btw this weekend for me/stg3 was a big one, car def does not lack in power in 4th and 5th gears. on a closed course it beat CTS-V.....twice


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: (prodigymb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *prodigymb* »_btw this weekend for me/stg3 was a big one, car def does not lack in power in 4th and 5th gears. on a closed course it beat CTS-V.....twice
















nice


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_







nice

it had intake and exhaust too


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

they sound crazy with an exhaust. I saw one at the track (maybe the same guy). He pulled into the burnout box and you could barely here it over the crowd but as soon as he punched it


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (Branman)*

bob any updates, i though you were gonna have a real answer awhile ago


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_bob any updates, i though you were gonna have a real answer awhile ago

I see a glimmer of hope at the end of the tunnel.







Bob.G


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: (Branman)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Branman* »_they sound crazy with an exhaust. I saw one at the track (maybe the same guy). He pulled into the burnout box and you could barely here it over the crowd but as soon as he punched it








 i talked to him today, he has long tube headers too


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (prodigymb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *prodigymb* »_ i talked to him today, he has long tube headers too









damn, nice kill.


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
damn, nice kill.









guy is selling his car now


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (prodigymb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *prodigymb* »_
guy is selling his car now










LMAO! Buying a GTI?


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
LMAO! Buying a GTI?









maybe mine


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (prodigymb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *prodigymb* »_
maybe mine









and you are buying my S4?


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
and you are buying my S4?

1. to many doors
2. to many cylinders
3. not enuf boost
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (prodigymb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *prodigymb* »_
1. to many doors
2. to many cylinders
3. not enuf boost
4. too much class
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 








sorry Mark, couldn't resist.


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_







sorry Mark, couldn't resist.

less doors more class





















































stricking resemblance
Photograph by Arin Ahnell


_Modified by prodigymb at 11:01 AM 4-25-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

that's cool! I call her Big Bird on occasion. and if she's Big Bird, you must have Oscar!


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_that's cool! I call her Big Bird on occasion. and if she's Big Bird, you must have Oscar!

LOL
Oscar is green !!! hahah


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (prodigymb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *prodigymb* »_
LOL
Oscar is green !!! hahah









Oh right, that means you must be ELMO! Tickle me.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I will help him- it's called DOWNSHIFT.


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
Brett so your saying then this kits "powerband " is 4500-6500 or even 7000k??? you know this not a Gt35R right ?







. 
The tq and power band down low is pretty sad, with my car 265-285 peak tq on the dyno







Bob.G
p.s. im keeping your quote for my signature LOL 


this kits real powerband is most definetly between 4000-7200


----------



## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

when weather is colder out like yesterday it doesnt get the boost like when it is warmer out--- it will spike 20 then drop to 15-16 but on warmer days it hits and holds at 19(in third) and about 18 in fourth. what do you get prodigy--- I should run against you prodigy


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
Brett so your saying then this kits "powerband " is 4500-6500 or even 7000k??? you know this not a Gt35R right ?







. 
The tq and power band down low is pretty sad, with my car 265-285 peak tq on the dyno







Bob.G
p.s. im keeping your quote for my signature LOL 


Bob, I guess rational thinking is not your cup of tea. You don't have to be a genius to understand that this turbo is not going to spool at 3k...


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ The tq and power band down low is pretty sad, with my car 265-285 peak tq on the dyno







Bob.G
p.s. im keeping your quote for my signature LOL 


What is sad is your terrible inconsistency. Previous post:

_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_After a nice 2hr drive this morning i can tell you this car is FAST and the drivablity is OEM perfect not a hick cup , big http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif .
Whats nice you can lug the car in 6th gear under 2k and it drives perfect and no down shifting needed.

TheBox already proved you can't drive to save your life. Save some face and quit posting.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
TheBox already proved you can't drive to save your life. Save some face and quit posting.


since we are all local why not just let jr drive you car down the strip bob and see if he runs the same times..very simple solution to this


----------



## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

i will be running mine at the track soon and will let branman give it a whirl also and anyone else for that matter and see what i can get with dr's


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: (06MK5GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *06MK5GTI* »_i will be running mine at the track soon and will let branman give it a whirl also and anyone else for that matter and see what i can get with dr's

i wanna make it out to track, see what i can light up on 19s


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (prodigymb)*

o yeah and not to mention brett, jr's car runs like a beast holding as high as 29psi and bob is lucky to hit 20 on a good day


----------



## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*

we should do a track day prodigy-- i am in. 29psi


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (06MK5GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *06MK5GTI* »_we should do a track day prodigy-- i am in. 29psi









yeah jr pulled on a route 80 on ramp in second gear and i couldn't believe how it threw me back in the seat when the boost gauge went flying past the 25psi mark


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
What is sad is your terrible inconsistency. Previous post:
TheBox already proved you can't drive to save your life. Save some face and quit posting.

 
Brett whats SAD is the poor CUSTOMER SUPPORT im getting from APR and your personal attacks . 
Hope eveyone thats interested in a APR stage 3 keeps this in mind before they drop $7K+ for your kit !!!!!!!!!
How come my car has been pulling 6+ degrees of timing in most cylinders ??? great tune http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif or a problem my car has had its been there 3 times, but i guess your big ego is in the way and you over looked it . 
How can you allow a project car like mine go out the door and do NO LOGS???







Bob.G 



_Modified by rracerguy717 at 12:39 PM 4-28-2008_


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

*Re: (06MK5GTI)*


_Quote, originally posted by *06MK5GTI* »_we should do a track day prodigy-- i am in. 29psi









I tried and you werent interested http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

Bob, like I said before your attitude prevents anyone at APR from helping you. You have already diagnosed your car and you don't want to listen to anyone else (unless they support your 'theory'). Even though you know next to nothing about these engines, turbos, etc. (sorry, no other way to put it), you are convinced that you know what you are talking about and refuse to listen to the people who do this professionally for a living and those people close to you who have a great deal more experience than you. I would like to help you as would others at APR but you are, without a doubt, the most difficult customer to deal with that I have encountered in the last 5 years.
As far as your comment about no logs, that is preposterous. We have an advanced logging system that we designed here and we ran numerous logs on your car. We don't keep all the thousands of logs of cars that we run for obvious reasons.
And we did run your car at the track when we had it here and it ran exceptional. It ran within 1mph of a car that put down 111+ in reasonable conditions.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
Brett whats SAD is the poor CUSTOMER SUPPORT im getting from APR and your personal attacks . 
Hope eveyone thats interested in a APR stage 3 keeps this in mind before they drop $7K+ for your kit !!!!!!!!!
How come my car has been pulling 6+ degrees of timing in most cylinders ??? great tune http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif or a problem my car has had its been there 3 times, but i guess your big ego is in the way and you over looked it . 
How can you allow a project car like mine go out the door and do NO LOGS???







Bob.G 


Bob,
I don't think you've gotten poor support by any means. Mike T. is in almost constant contact with you.
The issue lies in your refusal to help in any way. You've slowly released logs to us over time that only showed small snapshots of the entire gear when we asked for complete 3rd gear pulls.
You tell us you feel the software isn't calibrated aggressively enough but then you complain of timing retard. A timing retard of -6 is at the more aggressive end of an acceptable correction which would then therefore suggest the calibration is plenty aggressive and more can't be added.
You tell us the car is running great when you received it last and now you've pulled it out of storage and its slower than its ever been.
You continue to post your dissastisfaciton and lead other posters to believe we aren't helping you anymore when we are in the process of organizing a trip for our engineers to come see you!
You are convinced that something is wrong with the software but you are making it as difficult as possible for us to even consider that possibility.
My suggestion is that if you really feel there is a calibration issue, you work with Mike T. without giving your determination for a solution and provide the data he requests so he can find the answer without all of the emotion and confusion to sort through as is currently the process.
I am beginning to wonder if you even want a resolution any more and aren't just enjoying the arugments.
I. personally, would like to see you 100% happy and have nothing but good things to say about the kit and APR is dedicated to that as well but you have to be a little more rational and understand our engineers are the experts and not the people on the forums, your friends, other companies or you and that we will resolve it for you if you give us the chance by providing the data we ask for without preconceived judgements.









_Modified by [email protected] at 9:30 AM 4-28-2008_


_Modified by [email protected] at 9:31 AM 4-28-2008_


----------



## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

*Re: (Branman)*

need dr's. but track day didnt happen.


----------



## Branman (Oct 6, 2004)

excuses excuses....lol i didnt go because nobody was interested so i wasnt gonna go.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

And we did run your car at the track when we had it here and it ran exceptional. It ran within 1mph of a car that put down 111+ in reasonable conditions.
 
Thats BS my car was never at the track down there , I was told that personally from Keith .
Just more excuses and denial and back pedal from you and APR


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Bob,
I don't think you've gotten poor support by any means. Mike T. is in almost constant contact with you.
The issue lies in your refusal to help in any way. You've slowly released logs to us over time that only showed small snapshots of the entire gear when we asked for complete 3rd gear pulls.

 
Keith you had the car 3 TIMES, how many times do you need it to get it right??? , pretty sad I have to have another tuner help me sort out APR problems because you guys refuse to do anything because your in denial


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
Thats BS my car was never at the track down there , I was told that personally from Keith .
Just more excuses and denial and back pedal from you and APR










Hmm.....







I may have been confused. I didn't run your car. I am pretty sure that the engineers took it one night. I've run Chris' car....
If I told you that we didn't take your car to MMP to verify I was mistaken. I am pretty sure the engineering team took it out.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
Keith you had the car 3 TIMES, how many times do you need it to get it right??? , pretty sad I have to have another tuner help me sort out APR problems because you guys refuse to do anything because your in denial










Bob,
That's our point. We've had it 3 times and it was operating identically to our other Stage 3 cars that have been very successful by all accounts.
You've been very difficult to work with throughout this ordeal and we would be more than happy to help you find a resolution if you would simply follow our instructions and requests.
We are continuing to try and help you and are currently making plans to send an engineer or 2 up north to help. Do you not want our help and support further?
Just to recap:
Delivered at Waterfest: Boost Control Issues were reported so we picked up the car at no expense to you and returned to our facility for diagnosis. Found the n75 to have failed. N75 replaced and car dyno'ed, made expected power.
Delivered to your house: No complaints except cold starts and occasional misfires. Reported great power and drivability.
Stopped by during travels to Florida: Given set of new injectors at no expense and updated to newest software. New injectors resolved misfires and coldstart. Reported great power and no issues, car went in to winter storage shortly after
Removed from winter storage: No issues reported.
Declined 100 oct file due to recommendation to install rods: reported car is down on power. 4th gear is slower than other gears. No dtc's or discernable issues from partial datalogs. Dyno graph showing low torque. Offer to visit you for diagnosis and repair.
This is about where I think we are at this point Bob. Our offer to come and diagnose your car still stands and I am sure you and Mike T. will be able to work this out so he can help you get it running again as it should.
Please let me know if I missed anything or we are unaware of any additional issues you are expeirencing other than what I've listed.


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
yeah jr pulled on a route 80 on ramp in second gear and i couldn't believe how it threw me back in the seat when the boost gauge went flying past the 25psi mark









wow my car never hits past 22psi......i always hold 20psi .....no more, no less. cold days, warm day same boost really. 5th and 6th gears are blast


----------



## TheBox (Jul 20, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
yeah jr pulled on a route 80 on ramp in second gear and i couldn't believe how it threw me back in the seat when the boost gauge went flying past the 25psi mark









Its just an overboost spike that will be fixed soon


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (TheBox)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TheBox* »_
Its just an overboost spike that will be fixed soon 

why fix just ad rods that **** flies


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
why fix just ad rods that **** flies

How could the map sensor read that high though? Thought it taxed out around 2550 mbar.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (Arin)*

you are correct when you pass the max limit of the map it reads off the front 02 sensor to keep things good


_Modified by [email protected] at 12:12 PM 4-28-2008_


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (Arin)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Arin* »_
How could the map sensor read that high though? Thought it taxed out around 2550 mbar.

Correct, if you boost past that the ecu loses some of its control strategy and becomes a less powerful and less robust ems.


----------



## VitViper (Dec 12, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Correct, if you boost past that the ecu loses some of its control strategy and becomes a less powerful and less robust ems.

Interesting tid bit. My Stage 2+ setup was seeing 24-25psi yesterday (it was about 70* out) 5th/6th gear.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (VitViper)*


_Quote, originally posted by *VitViper* »_
Interesting tid bit. My Stage 2+ setup was seeing 24-25psi yesterday (it was about 70* out) 5th/6th gear.

Sounds like you hit the limit of the map and the ecu was trying to regulate it with the n75. Was that a spike at high load? Its possible for the turbocharger to climb very quickly in those situations and the n75 control strategy is ramping up as fast as possible to bring it back down.


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

i wanna see 24 psi too !!!!!!!!!!


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (prodigymb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *prodigymb* »_i wanna see 24 psi too !!!!!!!!!!

Put it in 5th or 6th gear and floor it at 2600'ish rpm's.


----------



## VitViper (Dec 12, 2007)

*Re: (prodigymb)*


_Quote, originally posted by *prodigymb* »_i wanna see 24 psi too !!!!!!!!!!

23-24psi is not unusual for me to see in warmer temps. You should of seen the expression on my face when I first ripped off from the shop I got my flash on and my boost gauge flew past 25psi and pegged the boost gauge in 3rd gear (ECU hadn't adapted yet, lawl)


----------



## VitViper (Dec 12, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Sounds like you hit the limit of the map and the ecu was trying to regulate it with the n75. Was that a spike at high load? Its possible for the turbocharger to climb very quickly in those situations and the n75 control strategy is ramping up as fast as possible to bring it back down.

Yeah, that's what I figured Keith. Sometimes it'll spike that high in 4th. But definitely not unusual for me to spike that high in 5th and 6th gear (start the pull at 2k to 2.5k rpm) given I'm almost at sea level (300ft) and it's warm outside.
BTW, I was the 6MT '08 GTI that Futrell Autowerks called about when they didn't see the fuel pump file available for my ECU


----------



## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_you are correct when you pass the max limit of the map it reads off the front 02 sensor to keep things good

_Modified by [email protected] at 12:12 PM 4-28-2008_

If you logged that with vagcom, what happens? does it just ramp up to the max amount and then stay flat?


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (Arin)*

if you log boost pressure it just reads the max value of 2550 or 2580 whatever it is


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_if you log boost pressure it just reads the max value of 2550 or 2580 whatever it is

I'm not sure if it goes completely into open loop at that point but once that happens, the ecu has to essentially guess at how it applies fueling and such from that point forward. You won't break anything usually but if you try to part throttle or at tip in at wot you won't have the same controls as normal and the ecu won't be able to use its full potential.


----------



## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I'm not sure if it goes completely into open loop at that point but once that happens, the ecu has to essentially guess at how it applies fueling and such from that point forward. You won't break anything usually but if you try to part throttle or at tip in at wot you won't have the same controls as normal and the ecu won't be able to use its full potential.

thats ok if i am above 22psi all i care about is WOT







i honestly am not 100% sure how it works cuz i haven't passed that limit yet


----------



## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

i cant spike that high in 5th or 6th at 2500 rpms


----------



## [email protected] (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

There aren't very many calculations that are based solely off of boost pressure. Generally they are based off of engine load which is calculated by mass air flow. Mass air flow remains accurate even when boost pressure goes beyond the MAP sensor limit (assuming the MAF sensor is still within range).
However, there are calculations that are based off the delta between requested and actual boost. But since the signal is clipped at aproximately 2550mBar a true delta can not be calculated.
Long Story short, if a car sees a boost value higher than it can read, base maps such as timing and fuel are still active and the car will remain safe. However, for the entire calibration to work as intended boost pressure should be sustained below the MAP sensor limit.


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Bob,
That's our point. We've had it 3 times and it was operating identically to our other Stage 3 cars that have been very successful by all accounts.
You've been very difficult to work with throughout this ordeal and we would be more than happy to help you find a resolution if you would simply follow our instructions and requests.
We are continuing to try and help you and are currently making plans to send an engineer or 2 up north to help. Do you not want our help and support further?

 

Keith its apparent that APR had / has no intention in trying to fix my car and other 06 me-9 BT customers . 
All APR wants to do is try and prove there nothing wrong with my car/06 APR Software BT tune and all the excuses clearly show this .
Anyone reading this can do a search with my S/N here on the tex and read the HUNDREDS of APR threads and see Ive always been APR supporter from as far back as 2001 with at least 3 cars ONLY with APR Software and hardware and BT kits . Just want you to see how APR values there customers and just ask your self do you want to be in my shoes after you may put down $ 7K+ ????.








In all honesty APR makes great hardware but Ive been disappointed many many time in the performance results with there software NOT representing what they advertise .( not even close IMO)
When APR peak numbers where low in the BT 1.8T kits APR would point out " that's not important and its the area under the curve which is most important "( which I agree ) . Now with this new 2L there no talk about area under the curve its " look at those peak HP numbers " and they keep ignoring there weak " area under the curve " they have tuned this engine . 
Then when its in the favor you hear them say " corrected dyno numbers " are not actuate with FI motor but because my numbers where low when they tuned it and things looked better they used " corrected numbers " to there favor.

To sum it up APR is full of excuses and disappointments and until they fix there software ( at least there 06 cars ) I would take the " wait and see " approach before I would purchase it .
I would also be very weary with the new generation ECU in 08 and up 2L software even chipped because if you look at history with this engine APR has had ALOT of problems trying to figuring it out and I think that there other SOFTWARE ONLY companies that will work harder and closer with there customers and dedicate the time needed to get it right the FIRST TIME before its released .
Ive got more support from other tuners trying to help me figure out whats going on with my car that Ive never met them or purchased anything from them YET http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif ,that's pretty Sad customer support from APR http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif Bob.G


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Put it in 5th or 6th gear and floor it at 2600'ish rpm's.

nope, i see 22 and then 20.....good boost control http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_To sum it up APR is full of excuses and disappointments and until they fix there software ( at least there 06 cars ) I would take the " wait and see " approach before I would purchase it .








Keith, I see your and my posts went nowhere... again... Maybe if we repeat it enough things will sink in. It works with my 2 and 3 year old... But they are a bit more rational...

_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Bob,
That's our point. We've had it 3 times and it was operating identically to our other Stage 3 cars that have been very successful by all accounts.
You've been very difficult to work with throughout this ordeal and we would be more than happy to help you find a resolution if you would simply follow our instructions and requests.
We are continuing to try and help you and are currently making plans to send an engineer or 2 up north to help. Do you not want our help and support further?
Just to recap:
Delivered at Waterfest: Boost Control Issues were reported so we picked up the car at no expense to you and returned to our facility for diagnosis. Found the n75 to have failed. N75 replaced and car dyno'ed, made expected power.
Delivered to your house: No complaints except cold starts and occasional misfires. Reported great power and drivability.
Stopped by during travels to Florida: Given set of new injectors at no expense and updated to newest software. New injectors resolved misfires and coldstart. Reported great power and no issues, car went in to winter storage shortly after
Removed from winter storage: No issues reported.
Declined 100 oct file due to recommendation to install rods: reported car is down on power. 4th gear is slower than other gears. No dtc's or discernable issues from partial datalogs. Dyno graph showing low torque. Offer to visit you for diagnosis and repair.
This is about where I think we are at this point Bob. Our offer to come and diagnose your car still stands and I am sure you and Mike T. will be able to work this out so he can help you get it running again as it should.
Please let me know if I missed anything or we are unaware of any additional issues you are expeirencing other than what I've listed.











_Modified by [email protected] at 6:22 PM 4-28-2008_


----------



## zemun2 (Sep 2, 2004)

Why do you guys waste time on this tool?


----------



## prodigymb (Mar 9, 2004)

*Re: (zemun2)*


_Quote, originally posted by *zemun2* »_Why do you guys waste time on this tool?

1. he's not a tool
2. he spend 7 grand and wants to get what he paid for


----------



## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
And we did run your car at the track when we had it here and it ran exceptional. It ran within 1mph of a car that put down 111+ in reasonable conditions.

Brett It's funny how all of a sudden you remember things ( which is not true because you guys NEVER had my car at the track ) . 
Where was your memory when you guys FORGOT to install my in-tank fuel pump??? which to this day I still don't have and has never been installed and my car has been there 3 TIMES







.
That must have been on that same check list where you forgot to double check my logs before my car was released to me , good job ! ! ! ! ! http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif Bob.G


----------



## NEW2B (Dec 1, 2006)

why are the 06 apr files boosting so low?
my v3 stage 2 only hits 18 psi. 
and my previous file was not that much better 
at 19 psi.


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 8, 2007)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_
Brett It's funny how all of a sudden you remember things *( which is not true because you guys NEVER had my car at the track ) . * 
Where was your memory when you guys FORGOT to install my in-tank fuel pump??? which to this day I still don't have and has never been installed and my car has been there 3 TIMES







.
That must have been on that same check list where you forgot to double check my logs before my car was released to me , good job ! ! ! ! ! http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif Bob.G


Bob, 
Please stop saying your car never went to the track, my car and your car both went to the same track, on the same night, with Tom from APR driving both cars with one of our engineers data logging everything.


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (NEW2B)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NEW2B* »_why are the 06 apr files boosting so low?
my v3 stage 2 only hits 18 psi. 
and my previous file was not that much better 
at 19 psi.


APR has never been of the philosophy that more boost equals more power. Unfortunately engine management calibration isn't that simple. There becomes a point in the efficiency of the turbocharger and other engine characteristics where more boost will detract from the overall power output and longevity of the turbocharger and other components.
Furthermore, the ME9 ems is a load based system that allows the ecu to collect data from all of the different sensors on the engine and select a range of parameters to meet requested load. Boost, timing and even afr to a slight degree can be tweaked by the ecu to make a requested load depending upon ambient conditions and other factors. Even OEM calibrated ME9 Turbo cars can see boost pressure swings of 2-4 psi depending upon the ambient conditions.
17-21 psi is a sweet spot for turbocharger efficiency, timing advance and afr. The ecu can determine if it should be on the low end or high side depending upon the requested load and the feedback from the various engine sensors.


----------



## rolopuentebigotudo (Mar 7, 2008)

keith, joel, brett can you post some videos from inside the car to see how it performs ?


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (rolopuentebigotudo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rolopuentebigotudo* »_keith, joel, brett can you post some videos from inside the car to see how it performs ? 

Sure, what would you like me to focus on? The instrument cluster so you can see the tach and speedo? 3rd gear pulls? 1st through 4th? Sounds like a great reason to go beat up a Stage 3 for awhile! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## Spool'n Turbo (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Sure, what would you like me to focus on? The instrument cluster so you can see the tach and speedo? 3rd gear pulls? 1st through 4th? Sounds like a great reason to go beat up a Stage 3 for awhile! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

How about you beat up on the Stage 3 DSG you have and post that up? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## nectar13 (Aug 22, 2007)

*Re: (Spool'n Turbo)*

i can't believe vendors/tuners/companies talk to customers like that. whether the guy is a flaming ***** (not saying anything about anyone in this thread, as i know none of you personally) or not. i can't believe businesses act like that.
i've dealt with folks who would rather see me get hit by a bus than deal with me ( <3 hostile clients), but as a professional it's my job to act in a professional manner (and bite my tongue)
had someone pop off to a co-worker because she called him on a very simple feature of their software. really simple thing, and he bascially called her stupid. needless to say they lost around 750K in sales. 
just doesn't make good business sense to deal with clients like that.
to each is own i suppose


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (Spool'n Turbo)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Spool’n Turbo* »_
How about you beat up on the Stage 3 DSG you have and post that up? http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I could satisfy both requests with one beating!








Maybe I can do both since I have plans to make a vid of the DSG car specifically for my other thread and I will make a quick and dirty of one of the 6 speed cars for this post! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (nectar13)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nectar13* »_i can't believe vendors/tuners/companies talk to customers like that. whether the guy is a flaming ***** (not saying anything about anyone in this thread, as i know none of you personally) or not. i can't believe businesses act like that.
i've dealt with folks who would rather see me get hit by a bus than deal with me ( <3 hostile clients), but as a professional it's my job to act in a professional manner (and bite my tongue)
had someone pop off to a co-worker because she called him on a very simple feature of their software. really simple thing, and he bascially called her stupid. needless to say they lost around 750K in sales. 
just doesn't make good business sense to deal with clients like that.
to each is own i suppose


I agree 100%! 
Sometimes its hard playing in a forum arena with all of the histories involved that only the guys that have been around for a long time get to see from the entire perspective.


----------



## Spool'n Turbo (Feb 7, 2002)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I could satisfy both requests with one beating!








Maybe I can do both since I have plans to make a vid of the DSG car specifically for my other thread and I will make a quick and dirty of one of the 6 speed cars for this post! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

I like the way you are thinking.


----------



## nectar13 (Aug 22, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
I agree 100%! 
Sometimes its hard playing in a forum arena with all of the histories involved that only the guys that have been around for a long time get to see from the entire perspective.


i understand what you're saying (it sounded a bit like a shot at me, due to my lack of posts). but whether i just walked up on this thread or i have a low post count... my stance remains the same. 
when you're running a business, client (customer) satisfaction is paramount. and i've seen a number of posts regarding fixing the situation (good thing)...but personal attacks directed at a customer?!? i just can't see how that is acceptable in any form or at least in public. at your office, well, different story
you guys clearly have a very loyal following. but as a consumer, i'd have to say i would re-evaluate using you guys based on professionalism, even if you guys make great products and have the biggest baddest kits around. i'm sure that doesn't phase you one bit, just using it as an example. and again, this is my personal opinion.



_Modified by nectar13 at 9:49 AM 4-29-2008_


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (nectar13)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nectar13* »_
i understand what you're saying (it sounded a bit like a shot at me, due to my lack of posts). but whether i just walked up on this thread or i have a low post count... my stance remains the same. 
when you're running a business, client (customer) satisfaction is paramount. and i've seen a number of posts regarding fixing the situation (good thing)...personal attacks directed at a customer is just bad business. 
you guys clearly have a very loyal following. but as a consumer, i'd have to say i would re-evaluate using you guys based on professionalism, even if you guys make the biggest baddest kits around. i'm sure that doesn't phase you one bit, just using it as an example. and again, this is my personal opinion.


wow, you kinda made my point for me. I didn't mean to specifically reference your post count by any accounts. I was attempting to point out that the situation with Bob has gotten to this point over the course of almost a year now. We've gone above and beyond any customer service levels I have ever seen any company offer in regards to helping Bob resolve the issues with his car.
We are also known to provide the best customer support in this industry. Bob's displeasure is his personal feeling of what he wants our product to be and what we want our product to be. Bob feels the software is not aggressively tuned enough for him and we feel its plently aggressive for our potential market. Its a philosophical disagreement that has been twisted into a poor customer service experience.


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## nectar13 (Aug 22, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

my post count under this name (or any) really shouldn't mean much. whether i post, lurk or just walk up to this thread as a completely new user (which would probably be even worse...which i think is your point)
i'm not new to the forum. i mentioned that you guys have made attempts to rectify the situation. which indeed is good customer service. and pissed off customers are NEVER fun. but why mar your reputation of good service, with something like this?
my point is simple...whether or not the guy is unreasonable...
you don't bash customers in a public forum, period (at least imho). i've sat for hours and taken verbal lashings that i had absolutely NOTHING to do with. but my client was pissed. and it was my job to fix it...now, if i had called the guy an idiot (which he was...and he was wrong) you can bet he's going to make sure others know of my behavior and i would most likely cost my company business <-not good. 
oh....and
you didn't have to reference my post count directly...it wasn't that subtle, and i'm old enough to know a passive shot when i see it.








cheers 



_Modified by nectar13 at 10:05 AM 4-29-2008_


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (nectar13)*


_Quote, originally posted by *nectar13* »_my post count under this name (or any) really shouldn't mean much. whether i post, lurk or just walk up to this thread as a completely new user (which would probably be even worse...which i think is your point)
i'm not new to the forum. i mentioned that you guys have made attempts to rectify the situation. which indeed is good customer service. and pissed off customers are NEVER fun. but why mar your reputation of good service, with something like this?
my point is simple...whether or not the guy is unreasonable...
you don't bash customers in a public forum, period (at least imho). i've sat for hours and taken verbal lashings that i had absolutely NOTHING to do with. but my client was pissed. and it was my job to fix it...now, if i had called the guy an idiot (which he was...and he was wrong) you can bet he's going to make sure others know of my behavior and i would most likely cost my company business <-not good. 
oh....and
you didn't have to reference my post count directly...it wasn't that subtle, and i'm old enough to know a passive shot when i see it.








cheers 
_Modified by nectar13 at 10:05 AM 4-29-2008_

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## TheBox (Jul 20, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*

BOB put me in your car and ill rip it up tomorrow at Etown


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (TheBox)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TheBox* »_BOB put me in your car and ill rip it up tomorrow at Etown

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
We've gone above and beyond any customer service levels I have ever seen any company offer in regards to helping Bob resolve the issues with his car.

 

_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_

Where was your memory when you guys FORGOT to install my in-tank fuel pump??? which to this day I still don't have and has never been installed and my car has been there 3 TIMES







.
That must have been on that same check list where you forgot to double check my logs before my car was released to me , good job ! ! ! ! ! http://****************.com/smile/emthdown.gif Bob.G


Its funny Keith how APR is very selective at what they respond too. 
How is leaving out and upgraded in-tank pump that was part of the " engineered kit" , espec when it was down at your home office 3 TIMES??? that's great service? and going over and above???









You guys are a joke full of smoke and mirrors .
I hope most reading this can see pass this B.S.
Don't worry I have another tuner helping me figure things out and straighten out your mess once again .







Bob.G


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

whats the reason for the intake pump anyway, i don't see any reason for it in my own logs... unless i am missing a hidden reason but i am deff interested in why apr is the only one using them


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (TheBox)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TheBox* »_BOB put me in your car and ill rip it up tomorrow at Etown

Thanks JR but with all due respect Sam ( 18bora ) drove the car at E-town with the same POOR RESULTS .







Bob.G


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 

Its funny Keith how APR is very selective at what they respond too. 
How is leaving out and upgraded in-tank pump that was part of the " engineered kit" , espec when it was down at your home office 3 TIMES??? that's great service? and going over and above???









You guys are a joke full of smoke and mirrors .
I hope most reading this can see pass this B.S.
Don't worry I have another tuner helping me figure things out and straighten out your mess once again .







Bob.G



Bob,
The answer is simple and you already know that at the time your kit was installed the intank pump was not a required part. We have of course, offered to update you to the final production version which was determined to require the intank pump.


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_whats the reason for the intake pump anyway, i don't see any reason for it in my own logs... unless i am missing a hidden reason but i am deff interested in why apr is the only one using them








You should have a reason to find out eventually!


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_







You should have a reason to find out eventually!

like when i come outside one day and my car doesn't start i will know it's time to change my intake pump


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## [email protected] (Sep 4, 2007)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Assuming there are no other issues within the fueling system (ie clogged filter) the OEM in-tank pump is enough for the kit but it struggles. The duty cycle of the intake pump is very high even in a clean system and when introduced to even a slightly clogged system it has no chance of keeping up. To alleviate this problem the larger intake pump was added to our kit so that duty cycle would decrease inevitably lengthening the life of the pump.


_Modified by [email protected] at 1:14 PM 4-29-2008_


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_

Bob,
The answer is simple and you already know that at the time your kit was installed the in-tank pump was not a required part. We have of course, offered to update you to the final production version which was determined to require the in-tank pump.









Keith you had other kits and parts available including the in-tank pump back in November when you guys had to replace my injector because of bad cold mis-fires leading to CEL , why wasn't it done then???







or even better why haven't you sent one for me to install????
Just want people to see its just and act you go through showing how concern and helpful you been LOL







Bob.G


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_
Just want people to see its just and act you go through showing how concern and helpful you been LOL







Bob.G


because this is so much easier.....







You've had the attention of this entire company for quite a long time Bob, and you know that. Its been this difficult because you seem to want it this way. We would have loved to put this to bed several months ago. We are still monitoring, planning and talking to you every single day about a resolution for you but you still won't let us!
If we've upset you to the point of ultimate frustration whereas you don't want any thing from us further as you say on the forums, then let it be that way. You post publicly about how you are upset about APR not providing a resolution and refusing to do so and at the same time you are working with us to schedule a trip for our engineers to come and help.








If you want to be upset that your car isn't running as you feel it should after it's been here 3 times then I understand. If you want us to come and get your car at no expense to you and diagnose the issue and fix it for you, we will. If you want us to send up 2 engineers at no expense to you and diagnose the issue and fix it for you, we will. We have offered to do whatever you would like for us to do to fix this issue for you at no expense to you. All you have to do is say "Yes, I want my car fixed." You have yet to do that and seem to just want to continue on your campaign.


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## pioneer162 (Apr 29, 2008)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

If the car is sooo bad, and they are offering to come TO you to fix it, why not just shut up and let them, and don't let them leave until you personally watch them put up the correct numbers?
OR
Why not take the car TO them and drop it off, and do not take it back until you've watched them put the numbers up in person.
It's really that simple, now all you've done is talk smack until the guy making your cheeseburger want to spit in your food. Just because you have 7 grand to spend on a turbo kit, does not mean you are qualified to tell the experts what is wrong with it. When was the last time you put together your own turbo setup and tuned it? How did that go?
I've put together a few in my time and let me tell you I don't even know a quarter of what these guys know, they go to school for this specifically, what did you go to school for? Bet it wasn't cars.


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## Arin (Jun 27, 2002)

*Re: (pioneer162)*

Anyone remember this?
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3768145
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3741988
Hopefully its something really simple!


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## iSot (Mar 6, 2008)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_
Just want people to see its just and act you go through showing how concern and helpful you been LOL







Bob.G


I dont understand you either







Why you keep smacking your head against to wall ?? If they really wanna do it and try to fix it... Let them try to help you.. I dont know the "hole story" of course, but I know that If you keep that way, its not gona work ever... and what you can get with these post ? Nothing.....
Let them fix it if there is something to fix.... Leave the car them and they could look it with peace... 

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## TheBox (Jul 20, 2003)

*Re: (pioneer162)*

Very well put my friend, The crew at APR knows so much about the FSI its crazy.


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## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: (TheBox)*

From an objective by stander who follows these forums frequently, I offer my un-biased opinion for whatever it may be worth.
It really sounds like APR is trying to resolve the situation, I don't think any of us here really think APR is leaving you high and dry. It doesn't sound like they were doing it before, and it certainly doesn't sound like they're doing it now. You know how much humble pie they have to eat just to continue dealing with you on a continued basis? I'm surprised more APR reps haven't come on here cursing you out.
That being said I think we can all envision and understand your frustrations. Why not close down this thread and work on the solution putting hurt feelings aside then report back to us the final results? Why not just ask for your money back and have them put everything to the way it was when you bought it?
This whole conflict is just ridiculous to me. APR, why the patience? Are you worried about the PR hit you'll take if you say, "Ok, we failed, give us your stuff back, here's your money"?? Obviously there are turbo kits to be sold or not to be sold based upon the resolution of issues like this.. but I mean when do you cut your losses? The longer this goes on the longer it just creates doubt in peoples minds, founded or unfounded... I'm sure your competitors are gleefully following this thread over many beers. How many multi-thousand dollar turbo kits are going to other companies as this saga continues with no resolution in sight?


_Modified by BumbleBeeJBG at 12:36 PM 4-29-2008_


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (iSot)*


_Quote, originally posted by *iSot* »_
* I dont know the "hole story" of course, * 
Let them fix it if there is something to fix.... Leave the car them and they could look it with peace... 

http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
 
APR has been stringing me along for ATLEAST a month telling me there working on schedule me in this is just a ploy so that it becomes to late in the show season for any other tuner to be able to re-tune my car and im not falling in there trap. 
APR thinks there the only game in town just like what happened with the 1.8T there are many tuners close on there heels and ready to surpass them


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## space herpes (Dec 25, 2007)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
APR has been stringing me along for *ATLEAST* a month telling me *there* working on schedule me in this is just a ploy so that it becomes to late in the show season for any other tuner to be able to re-tune my car and *im* not falling in *there* trap. 
APR thinks *there* the only game in town just like what happened with the 1.8T there are many tuners close on *there* heels and ready to surpass them










Grammar > you










_Modified by space herpes at 1:06 PM 4-29-2008_


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## [email protected] (Aug 26, 2001)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ this is just a ploy so that it becomes to late in the show season for any other tuner to be able to re-tune my car and im not falling in there trap.








The holocaust never happened and the Apollo moon landing was filmed in Hollywood.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (BumbleBeeJBG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_
The longer this goes on the longer it just creates doubt in peoples minds, founded or unfounded... I'm sure your competitors are gleefully following this thread over many beers. How many multi-thousand dollar turbo kits are going to other companies as this saga continues with no resolution in sight?

 
APR has no Idea what can of worms they opened , all I wanted from the begining was my car to perform as per designed , they had there 3 chance now there jerking me around again and Espec with Bretts personal attacks now there going to suffer and take a hit where it hurts them the most $$$$$$







.
I have plenty of time now that the weather is warm so keep your eyes open its going to be a fun summer


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## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

Everyone can make up there own mind on who they feel is right/wrong----we all dont know the whole story from either side or read/heard their conversations to know exactly what went on. Apr does make a good kit that makes for an easy install. But in other posts there were dynos shown from apr saying they know what these kits will make on these cars---i am near those numbers but not at about 20whp and 20wtq away. also my boost hits about 20psi at 3500 then drops to 16-17 depending on weather( i know it can change due to od temps) when others are hitting and staying at 19-20and apr 06 cars are doing the same cause when i first put the kit on i asked what they were getting and it was the same as everyone else.


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2005)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
APR has been stringing me along for ATLEAST a month telling me there working on schedule me in this is just a ploy so that it becomes to late in the show season for any other tuner to be able to re-tune my car and im not falling in there trap. 


Bob,
Oh my, really?!? Do you honestly believe this thought has crossed anyone's minds at APR? Do you really think we are that devious and that worried about this situation other than having an unhappy client? I don't think you understand that we blaze our own trails, develop our own rewards and set our own goals. We don't live and die by what happens at Waterfest! We don't even typically participate in the drag races or any other events. We don't build cars as one off's to show at Waterfest and nothing more. We are a manufacturer of high quality aftermarket engine performance upgrades. We are not a tuner shop trying to make a national name for ourselves, we already have a great GLOBAL brand!
Noone here has any ill feelings or harbors any wishes for harm to come to you! We are not hiding in the bushes waiting to take you out,








We just want to be appreciated for the hard work we put into each and every product through our love and passion for the VAG marquees, support our families and have happy customers!
That is our only goal with you, Bob. Make you a happy client again but we can't completely redesign our turbokit to your exact specs and make it feel exactly like YOU want it to.
Furthermore, I am pretty sure we would have no issue refunding the $4500 you paid for the kit, installation and transport if that's what you wish in return for our Stage 3 back.


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## 06MK5GTI (Jul 30, 2006)

granted every car is going to be alittle different but so far looks like most are the same on numbers.


_Modified by 06MK5GTI at 4:30 PM 4-29-2008_


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## iSot (Mar 6, 2008)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
.. now there going to suffer and take a hit where it hurts them the most $$$$$$







.
I have plenty of time now that the weather is warm so keep your eyes open its going to be a fun summer










So you dont even try to find solutions for your car ... You just want to give somekind of revenge to APR, cause at the first time they dont do it "right". I dont understand this, but I dont have to ...







If I have somekind of problem with my stage or software which are from APR... I will keep calling to them or give emails or talk to my nearest dealer and could find some kind of solutions for the car and dont try to get blood out of my nose ...
but we all are different kind of people and maybe its for you somekind of game ... cause 7 grand is much for me and I dont want to play with 7 grand ...







If I'm you I'm trying to do everything that I can for my car that it would be fixed ... if its broken.. !!










_Modified by iSot at 1:34 PM 4-29-2008_


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## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rracerguy717* »_ 
APR has been stringing me along for ATLEAST a month telling me there working on schedule me in this is just a ploy so that it becomes to late in the show season for any other tuner to be able to re-tune my car and im not falling in there trap. 


Ever see the conspiracy theory movie with mel gibson?....

And to quote my previuse statement on page 4 of this thread...

_Quote, originally posted by *DK_GTI_racer* »_
you posted earlier in a another thread when u got the car from APR how alive and fast it was, have u forgotten that?, how can such late "own" dyno test be the reason of bashing?...something has clearly happend after u have driven the car for a while, since APR was able to make 350whp on dyno for you.

Don´t see the point in discredit that dynograph - if u took the car directly from when APR lefted it to u(where u felt the car was FAST) and on a dyno - and the car misperformed - then i would understand - but you have driven the car for a while before dynoing...
the DV could be a gonner, leaks and what have u....think u should start looking at HW related instead of SW and bashing -that don´t fix anything - look at how many APR guys chime in and say they wan´t to help u - honestly for the beaf u dish out on them i dont´understand they bother..
In my openion your not working with APR to fix it, just bashing and not letting them help u out...in fact 06MK5GTI is a solid proof that 06 versions also pulls down the 340whp...
Anyways good luck again...
_Modified by DK_GTI_racer at 5:34 PM 4-7-2008_

You are horror-costumer for any tuner, and i would be surprised if any tuner would ever tune a car for you again, you will not work with your tuner APR, only make post that APR dont help you - when infact they are the only one who seems like they want to help and figure this out, even you seem like help is not needed because your convinced APR can´t help you...danm APR are swallowing big chunks of humble pie like stated before...
I have no beaf with either, but i would like to see this thread end with happy solutions, and it will not end like that if you won´t let APR help you out....no other tuner knows that much about the FSI as they do - meet them half way man....


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## BumbleBeeJBG (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: ([email protected])*


_Quote, originally posted by *[email protected]* »_
Furthermore, I am pretty sure we would have no issue refunding the $4500 you paid for the kit, installation and transport if that's what you wish in return for our Stage 3 back.

Ok, why should this continue any further? Either let them fix your car or take your money back Bob.


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## rracerguy717 (Apr 8, 2003)

*Re: (BumbleBeeJBG)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BumbleBeeJBG* »_
Ok, why should this continue any further? Either let them fix your car or take your money back Bob.
 
Because APR made it personal now , there going to suffer LOL


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## DK_GTI_racer (Oct 4, 2007)

*Re: (rracerguy717)*

if you look at the start of the thread, you made it personally - not APR, altough some more suddle comments could have been made, but on your behave also....get your car to APR and get problems fix, and post the happy news - end of thread


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## iThread (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: ([email protected])*

Locked at the request of the OP.


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