# Suspension & Braking tuning



## jedge1.8t (Jan 27, 2012)

I want to start looking into other places to improve the performance of the TT. Engine mods always get the center of attention.

I mean my first initial response to this was to remove the rear ballast weight and relocate battery to trunk. My mind was getting weight towards the center. The only changes in this I felt is the Turn in is more responsive, but this did raise my car height up a bit.

despite coilovers or buying porsche brakes, what is there to mod to improve on other performance areas rather than the engine?

for instance caliper adapters to set the rear wheels up with bigger audi brakes, rear sway bar to the front or modding the sway bar in the front. Anyone care to enlighten me?


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Defcons? Adding the 3.2/Vert subframe braces, front and rear, is an OEM upgrade. Bigger brakes in the rear without changes in the front throws off the bias slightly, though most people ignore this. You could do 13" 3.2 front brakes, but I don't think I've ever seen a larger rear OEM upgrade. Sways aren't interchangeable, though you could add sway bar extensions like Max to reduce the spring rate of the front sway, which would decrease understeer slightly, but may not be noticeable on stock springs/dampers. Lighter wheels and tires, with increase in tire width always helps, but isn't the cheapest. Not really sure there's any more you can do for free/cheap.


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

I'm no suspension pro, but with stock springs/dampers you'd probably want to increase your sway bar rates to make up for the soft suspension setup rather than decrease them due to a very stiff setup. Your best bet is to buy a quality set of coilovers- any reason why you're shying away from them?

A simple set of Hawk HP+ or EBC Yellows at all four corners will give you a dramatic braking upgrade. They aren't enough for big power or track time- but for street driving they are very good. Sidenote: HP+ will squeal and squeak.


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm in for this also. I'm starting to get an idea on what I want for my DD, but always ready to hear new thoughts.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

You could go with a nice strut and shock combo to get a stiffer suspension. You don't necessarily need to go with coilovers. IMO this will be the most noticeable handling change there is to make. Also you could get some tires with a stickier compound. And for brakes I know you said no Porsche, but boxter breaks are an upgrade and relatively cheap if you buy the parts used. Also as stated above defcons will help the response


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Weight removal is free. Gut it! :laugh:


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

I don't see a point in wasting money on rear brakes when you still have the stock fronts. Good pads all around will do much more, and for about a grand you can get a starter BBK. And like Doug said, using a softer anti-sway in the front with stock dampers/springs is going to be very mushy.

Tires are going to make a huge difference in handling, grip, braking, and road feel. It's the most efficacious mod to any car, yet seems largely neglected by the tuner market. I'd buy top-end Summer tires before anything, and if you drive aggressively at all, you will not regret it.

Here's the order I say to go with:

- Good pads, good fluid, and a proper bleed
- Top end Summer tires (Star Specs 2s, or RE-11s would be choices)
- Coilovers (I remember finding Bilstein PSS for about a grand - why cheap out when you can get a pretty decent suspension for so little?)
- Defcon Delrins; rest of bushings poly (IMO, these are sort of a waste until you have coilovers and good tires to take advantage of them)
- Lightweight wheels
- BBK (I went with a custom Wilwood kit)

As I've said many times, I'd give up half my power before I'd give up the list of mod's above. :thumbup:


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

And oldie but a goody.


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## hunTTsvegas (Aug 27, 2012)

Not meaning to hijack a thread so if I do, forgive me but additional monies just flowed into the bank account today so I've gone into part searching/consideration/buying mode. My go faster side of the brain was about to go ahead and buy Maestro 7 but then the intellectual side of my brain said that is a considerable sum of money and instead of one part, many could be acquired. 

I'm looking at DEFCON 1 as well as Powerflex Bushes for the rear to give an all around refresh. At the same time, new drilled rotors, ceramic pads, stainless brake lines and powder coat for the calipers (as stock brakes work perfect for Daily Driving). 

What I'm hung up on is whether to bite a bullet and get a Coilover setup (like the Koni with adjustable dampening) or go with the only Shock/Spring setup I've seen that gives me warm fuzzies (Koni FSD/Neuspeed Sport Springs). I don't ever plan on tracking it but living near curvy roads makes me drive a little  sometimes. Of course, other minor goody parts would be included in there but those are the big ticket items that I'm not quite sure on. 

Advice or experiences?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Interesting!

Giving this one some time to play out before giving my somewhat out of the norm inputs.


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## hunTTsvegas (Aug 27, 2012)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Interesting!
> 
> Giving this one some time to play out before giving my somewhat out of the norm inputs.


Uh oh..  .. something tells me I should have just kept trolling information. On a side note: most of your posts make my brain hurt but I'm slowly picking it up so thanks for all of the knowledge bombs you drop on this site.


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

20V, I sure wish SCC was still around - one of the last good mags out there!

HunTT, I have Maestro and wouldn't get it unless you're looking to really learn about tuning, or go BT one day. It's more suitable for the advanced user, and/or someone looking to make many changes to their hardware/software.

I forgot to include a good alignment in my list - it makes a huge difference! I run -1.8F/-2.2R camber, and zero toe all around. With my setup, I've got tons of grip, no uneven tire wear, and it's easy to control once you break traction. :thumbup:


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## hunTTsvegas (Aug 27, 2012)

jbrehm said:


> 20V, I sure wish SCC was still around - one of the last good mags out there!
> 
> HunTT, I have Maestro and wouldn't get it unless you're looking to really learn about tuning, or go BT one day. It's more suitable for the advanced user, and/or someone looking to make many changes to their hardware/software.
> 
> I forgot to include a good alignment in my list - it makes a huge difference! I run -1.8F/-2.2R camber, and zero toe all around. With my setup, I've got tons of grip, no uneven tire wear, and it's easy to control once you break traction. :thumbup:


I appreciate the advice. I'm not necessarily planning to go BT yet but I do see a 3076 or Frankenturbo (even though a hybrid isn't a BT) in my future, someday. I think the attractiveness of it was that as well as applying a standard Stage 1 tune to free up a little power, I could also control certain codes from showing like when eventually deleting the SAI/N249, etc without having to repeatedly go to a tuner. With the information available from guys like you, Marcus Aurelius and other seasoned vets, help is a PM away most of the time. Hell, thanks to Marcus Aurelius and his mind blowing logic write ups, I actually understand a lot more about Water/Meth and AWIC setups. Huntsville offers nothing in the way of tuning other than a 3 hour trip South (APR), East (Atlanta and multiple tuners there) or North/Northeast (TN and KY have scattered tuners) so most things I end up doing myself.


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## jedge1.8t (Jan 27, 2012)

Trying to keep the subject at hand.

A main point i want to derive is are the front caliper adapter able to replaced into the rear. meaning you can replocate your front 225 calipers to the rear while upgrade the rotor. And then aquire some used 3.2 calipers for the front, and use a upgraded rotor. or like wise using a used boxter brake set.

this to me seems very cost effecient, not going big brake, but probably suitable enough braking for those in the 300hp area. 


Also a strut and shock combo seems the cost effecient way I agree over coils. KONI FSD has got my attention mainly for their good ride quality but improving their handling. But what springs should I use?

I mean i want a better handling, but i majority dont want lose any ride comfort. The handling needs to be very beneficial before i sacrifice comfort.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

jedge1.8t said:


> Trying to keep the subject at hand.
> 
> A main point i want to derive is are the front caliper adapter able to replaced into the rear. meaning you can replocate your front 225 calipers to the rear while upgrade the rotor. And then aquire some used 3.2 calipers for the front, and use a upgraded rotor. or like wise using a used boxter brake set.
> 
> ...


As for brakes, if you're not going to be tracking the car or doing serious canyon carving/mountain runs, you're making this way too complicated. For what you'd spend to do your OEM one off upgrades front and rear, you could just install Porsche calipers to the OEM size fronts and have just as capable a setup with 4 pistons in the front on 12.3 discs vs 2 pistons on 13.1" discs. Moving the 12.3" setup to the rear would be costly, custom, and not really provide much useable benefit unless you are really hammering on the car repeatedly, like I said in mountains/canyons/road courses. 

As for suspension, the off the shelf sport springs are so close to each other, and will work well with the FSD's, that whichever you can get cheaper between Neuspeed or H&R is going to be your best bet. Brand new springs and FSD's will put you near or over the cost of ST coils, so depending on how much looks play into your desires, coils aren't that different budget wise compared to what you're looking at and give you adjustable ride height.


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## hunTTsvegas (Aug 27, 2012)

20v master said:


> Brand new springs and FSD's will put you near or over the cost of ST coils, so depending on how much looks play into your desires, coils aren't that different budget wise compared to what you're looking at and give you adjustable ride height.


Great point. It took you mentioning that for me to realize it. This is exactly the same price as these which if I understand is better than low end ($3-400 coilovers) but not quite your high end ($1600 or up). Correct? I think the direction I'm starting to lean is this set because of rebound adjustment but keep them toward the higher height so as not to affect the things mentioned in an old post by Max discussing body roll and geometry.


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## hunTTsvegas (Aug 27, 2012)

jedge1.8t said:


> Trying to keep the subject at hand.


My apologies!


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## jedge1.8t (Jan 27, 2012)

I am not into the ST, even though i hear good handling and height adjustments, stiff is a word i get from all the users. Not trying to be stiff. Trying to my best to keep stock comfort. I know its a hard to find, but i certainly what whatever comes closest.

Its a shame the KONI coilovers seem to be marked up quite a bit, not too long ago they were going for 1250. MJM had a good deal with rear sway to that i dont see it anymore...

What about removing weight the front and end of the vehicle? past the tires.

welding bracing on any twistable suspension componet?

I also want to ask if theres a way to keep ride comfort by choosing to go springs only with the addition of loosing or adding weight?


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

I did a Boxster Brembo front upgrade (twin-piston 1pc, lighter, vs single-piston 2pc OEM) with SS lines and Hawk HPS a long time ago and its still awesome. I've never been left wanting for braking power, feel, or performance, and the HPS have good feel with _very _little dust. The calipers are far better than the 1-piston stockers, though the setup will be getting a rebuild/once-over with the suspension in the spring :thumbup:


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## jedge1.8t (Jan 27, 2012)

How much did that setup run you vette?


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

ST coilovers are about as mild as coilovers come! The Konis that I've ridden on were quite a bit stiffer. You really have to consider the source when asking about suspension - my dentist loved TTs, and test drove one but thought it was way too stiff; I think the stock 225 suspension is a terrible joke, meant for my great Grandma.  And there's not much in the way of mass that you can remove from the front of the car. Battery relocate, lighter wheels and brakes, and that's about it other than some more exotic mod's like tubular control arms and subframe. The hood, front fenders, and crash bar are already aluminum, but you can pull about 20lbs of emissions and plastic crap out of the engine bay. Boring your engine from 81mm to 83mm will save you about 940 grams though...yes, I did the math 

It seems like you're all over the map here, and are trying to accomplish significant gains for little money, which really isn't very practical on this platform. Wanting OEM-squishy suspension and having decent handling are irreconcilable desires. Using the front calipers and rotors on the rear is a good idea, which I considered but never bothered to look into the possibility of it working on the cheap.


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

jedge1.8t said:


> How much did that setup run you vette?


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4060463-Boxster-brake-upgrade-done-), almost exactly 4 years ago


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

jbrehm said:


> It seems like you're all over the map here


exactly my thoughts! The OP wants overkill brakes for no apparent reason, but thinks that any increase in suspension firmness is a big No No (what gives ?).

*Braking:* 
First thing to get in order is the use of the car. Next is the amount of power vs the wet weight. Once these have been clearly determined, than someone can proceed to pick the appropriate hardware for the job. 

With that said, keeping everything in line with the info the OP has given, the stock components are likely to provide more than enough braking for his needs and use of the car. I have not found the need for more braking or clamping load from the OEM components in my car. I pretty sure I ask more from the braking system than the OP will (I have to decelerate 315 race tires in very short distance, time and time again, and in a short period of time). The stock system is more than capable with good fluid and upgraded pads. As Doug mentioned, the HP+ from Hawk and the EBC red are good performance choices that can be driven daily without much drawbacks. I personally run the EBC for their good cold bite, resistance to fade for my use, and low brake dust (relative). 

One thing that is completely left out of the equation is brake bias and the car's resistance to dive (suspension related). A soft car with stock suspension or soft springs will have a nasty dive and ask almost all the braking to be done with the front brakes. In cars that fall in that category, increasing rear brake clamping load is a complete waste as they don't do much. If you have a car with stiffer suspension, the car will stay flatter in the braking event and use the rear brakes a lot more. In my car, I mix the EBC compounds where I use a harder compound to give me more clamping out of the rear and even out the load shared by the different axles.

The last thing to take into consideration is unsprung weight. Adding different brakes to your car is nice and all, but when that comes with extra weight penalty over the existing components, it's a compromise that I would never accept. Personally, only the compact Willwood stuff is worth looking at, they have something that will offer increase breaking, lower weight, and most importantly zero need to go up in wheel diameter to make them fit.

In a nutshell, get your priorities straight before blindly going into brake "upgrades". More often than not, a good set of pads with good fluid is the best upgrade that doesn't affect other things negatively. 

(my thoughts on suspension and handling to follow)


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Improving handling can be very tricky and counterintuitive at times. Without going into too much details I will give a brief breakdown. I already have a thread that goes deep in the specifics and worth looking at if anyone is interested :http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...ghlight=Let's+talk+TT+suspension#post77985042

There 3 main factors that will have the most effect on handling in a TT, so in order of importance:

*Tires*
There is nothing you can do to your car that will have a greater impact on handling than a good set of tires. Afterall, they are the only thing in contact with the road. Performance summer tires like the one mentioned by Jeremy will make any driver feel and look better in any cornering event. They have better, grippier compound, stiffer sidewalls etc. (at the expense of a little bit of road noise and longevity). The Dunlop Star specs is the best overall street tire ever made to date IMO. With insane dry grip, good sidewall stiffness, gradual breakaway, great wet performance, the star spec will put most race tires from a decade ago to shame (albeit the same size and all else remaining equal). Tire technology is always evolving and there will be others in the market that challenges the king and eventually take the crown. Grassroots Motorsports mag usually have periodic unbiased testing of all the contenders and the best place to stay updated with what the good performers are. I see people spend thousands on suspension and have China special rubbers wrapped on heavy wheels and stretched to the max :banghead:, if you're going to do that, you might as well skip any suspension upgrade. 

*Alignment*
Next big thing is a good performance alignment. The TT's stock specs are so bad that I wonder if it was a practical joke from the engineers. A good alignment will make a night and day difference in how the car handles and even improve traction as byproduct. It is to be noted that the OEM suspension bits do not have enough adjustability range to provide a good alignment, so aftermarket components like camber plates or offset top mounts are needed to achieve this in the front. In the rear, adjustable lateral links (commonly called control arms although technically they aren't) or offset bushing are a must to get things where they need to be. For example, the specs posted by Jbrehm at -1.8f/-2.2r should reversed from front to rear to be closer to what can be considered a good alignment (no intentional stab my long time friend). As far as specs for a street car:

-2.7 in the front (maybe a bit more if you're aggressive with taking turns) is a good compromise for static camber compensation. Needless to say that 0 toe is not negotiable in the front for any primarily street driven cars.

In the back, -1.3 to -1.5 static compensation is the golden target. More than that and you are leaving at lot of rear grip and traction on the table. I'm not sure about the FWD but AWD TT will toe-in under compression, so setting 1/32" to 1/16" of toe-in is ideal to keep high speed cornering manageable and induce some confidence. (don't forget that aftermarket components are needed to allow these alignment settings.)


*Camber curving and suspension geometry*
This is simple, the TT has horrible front suspension geometry and camber curving. You go too low and and you dig a hole that no component can get you out off. lowering more than 1" in the front also puts you in the worst spot in the camber curving, further compounding the other roll center problems associated with lowering. 

Roll stiffness can help with this to a point, that is why people go with stiffer, more appropriate spring rates (either springs or coilovers). Limiting how much the car rolls and leans will negate the horrible dynamic camber angles that exist at higher degree of roll angles. However, this takes a toll on comfort, especially if the shocks are not up to the task of handling the spring rate increase. I tell people all the time a set of Bilstein PSS coilovers is the best bang you can get when looking to upgrade. There is not much of a loss in comfort (because of the good shocks they are based on) and the increase in handling is far beyond what any shock and spring combo available for the platform can offer. They also have superior durability and strength (big shaft, inverted monotubes) and priced competitively for those on a budget at around $1000 brand new. Koni, KW, etc, as well as the shock and spring combos can't even come close to the PSS when everything is taken into consideration. 

There are other things that help, but not to the same extent and sometimes with big drawbacks that most don't even realize (going crazy with big swaybars for example). Other steering and bushing upgrades always are a plus, especially when replacing old mushy OEM components. My 2 cents!


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Alright, let me feed back my list of what I think I’m hearing here as a good DD setup. My build list, if you will. I want to get specific so there is no confusion on my part on which way to go or what to buy.

Suspension
Bilstein PSS coilovers, set to stock ride height
MCPI rear control arms
MCPI DEFCON 2 (1?) package
Neuspeed swaybar, already on the back​
Alignment (I’m a little fuzzy here, pencil in the corrections, if needed.)
Front
-2.7 camber
zero toe-in​Rear
-1.5 camber
1/32" to 1/16" of toe-in​Brakes (I’m influenced by my motorcycle background here)
EBC pads (red or yellow, my choice)
New disks (?)
Braided lines 
Brake fluid replacement 
TyrolSport Brake Caliper Stiffening kit (thinking about this)​
Wheels
Go to 18” and move away from the 5/100 wheels, something lightweight​
So what did I miss?


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Atomic Ed said:


> Alright, let me feedback my list of what I think I’m hearing here as a good DD setup. My build list, if you will. I want to get specific so there is no confusion on my part on which way to go or what to buy.
> 
> Suspension
> Bilstein PSS coilovers, set to stock ride height *Or minimally lowered up to one 1"*
> ...


I added my thoughts in red for you ED!


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback Marcus! This list is what I'll use to freshen up the suspension, after I get the TT back on the road. :thumbup:

The braided lines and caliper stiffener are a holdover in head from my motorcycle experience. Motorcycle brakes and tires take more of a beating on the road than probably you give your brakes and tires on the track. I'm lucky to get 3K-4K out of a set of motorcyle tires.


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

Haha, Max is a thread killer...always on point, and never anything else to add. :thumbup:

Yeah, my alignment numbers are reversed!  The reversed numbers would give me _more_ understeer, which would make me fall asleep while I try to take a long sweeper at the limit. I didn't realize that we went toe out on rear compression, so I'm going to try dialing in maybe 1/16" in on the rear; and, I'm going to bump the front camber up to high 2s, like you recommend. I can't wait until Spring - I'm picking up everything I need to do alignments myself, and will very much enjoy not having to argue with incompetent alignment shops ever again. :banghead:


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## jedge1.8t (Jan 27, 2012)

cheers to max and ed, some really good information I was looking for.

The only thing that kinda drawsback on those is the pricing factor, I want to get half of that performance with half the cost.

I mean i dont want dunlop racing tires if there super expensive and i will hardly ever function my car, and the longetivity to me is important. I went with the hancook v12s, but rather regretting it, they do the job for the right price, but man they sure do wear rather quickly.

Also Bilstein pss, offer no dampening? is dampening something worth investing in if your after ride comfort? otherwise im considering the ST coils for their price. I really just dont want a stiff ride.

Bushings Im kinda pondering, I dont want to get to raced out on a audi, i would have bought a more sportier car for that reason. Im thinking a refresh of new oem rubbers would be suffecient to retain comfort.

The alignment, brakepads, new fluids, sound great, i gotta look into camber plates too


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

While I haven't ridden on the Bilstein PSS's, I think Max is telling us that their pretty well balanced as is. My guess is for daily driving the "as built" setting for dampening is OK. However, like you, having adjustibility is a feel good thing that I think I want, but probably don't really need for a daily driver. 

I see it all the time on motorcycles. 80% of the riders have highly adjustible suspensions, but leave them on the factory settings because for their riding skill level, factory settings are fine.


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> I added my thoughts in red for you ED!


TyrolSport Brake Caliper Stiffening kit (thinking about this)

_Heard mixed long term reviews_


Let me know about the mixed reviews you have read. We have been selling the kits for ten years and offer a money-back satisfaction guarantee.  :beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

jbrehm said:


> I'm going to bump the front camber up to high 2s, like you recommend. I can't wait until Spring - I'm picking up everything I need to do alignments myself, and will very much enjoy not having to argue with incompetent alignment shops ever again. :banghead:


:thumbup: That's the way to do it!

Just make sure you level the floor used (shiming with tiles or folded plastic bags). Also account and compensate for the narrower rear track when squaring your lines around the rear hubs. :beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

jedge1.8t said:


> The only thing that kinda drawsback on those is the pricing factor, I want to get half of that performance with half the cost.
> 
> I mean i dont want dunlop racing tires if there super expensive and i will hardly ever function my car, and the longetivity to me is important. I went with the hancook v12s, but rather regretting it, they do the job for the right price, but man they sure do wear rather quickly.
> 
> ...



Everything I mentioned was with budget in mind! I don't know if you're familiar with the Dunlop Direzza we're talking about but they are actually priced competitively. For example, to mount on OEM fat five wheels (pricing from the Tirerack):

225/45/17 --- $169 per tire
235/40/17 --- $192 per tire (ideal size all around for stock wheels)
235/45/17 --- $169 per tire
255/45/17 --- $185 per tire (ideal size for all out performance for stock wheels)

As far longevity of your tires, your alignment has a lot to do with it. A suboptimal alignment will cut the tires life by over 50% in many cases (talking TT specific).

I see you're questioning the Bilstein PSS for the lack of dampening adjustability, I purposely recommended them over the adjustable PSS9 for a reason. You don't need a dial to play with when a coilovers is well matched and valved for the springs and car weight. Many dampening adjusters are inconsistent and useless. Most users also have no clue how to properly tune an adjuster that only change the compression or rebound curve independently. Now make them affect both curves with non-linear crosstalk and even people with experience are in the dark without expensive tooling to properly test the effect of changes. In a nutshell, look at dampening adjusters as dial knobs that allow you to mess up an otherwise good setup! 

Replacing bushings with firmer, less compliant poly counterparts will make the ride tighter but not necessarily uncomfortable. I'd suggest you ride in a car with them before setting yourself up with preconceived untested opinion. 

Please stop comparing entry level coilovers like ST with a well thought out system like the PSS. The only relevant comparison point is pricing, besides that they are not in the same league. :beer:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Tyrol Mike said:


> TyrolSport Brake Caliper Stiffening kit (thinking about this)
> 
> _Heard mixed long term reviews_
> 
> ...


Mike, to be totally fair I have no firsthand experience with them on the platform. I was basing my statement on what a few others on QW had to say about them after some track days (we all know that this type of info is shaky at best). Being a long time cheerleader for your brand, especially your SMIC, how about we do this:

Send me a set of caliper stiffening kit and I will put them to the test in my car for the rest of the community (being a local, I can even come and pick them up). Believe me, there is nothing but win for you in this ... opcorn:

Details on the car they will be tested in:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5788526-Chronicles-of-a-track-TT


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## TyrolSport (Mar 4, 1999)

Insert "challenge accepted" gif.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Tyrol Mike said:


> Insert "challenge accepted" gif.


Cool! I'll give you a call shortly so we can make arrangements. Just so it doesn't feel like a lobsided deal, I have place for stickers in my car and TyroSport will be added in my sponsor list (good exposure on a car that competes in SCCA solo at a national level). :beer:


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> Most users also have no clue how to properly tune an adjuster that only change the compression or rebound curve independently. Now make them affect both curves with non-linear crosstalk and even people with experience are in the dark without expensive tooling to properly test the effect of changes. In a nutshell, look at dampening adjusters as dial knobs that allow you to mess up an otherwise good setup!


Agreed! I'v seen this a lot on motorcycle suspensions. My buddies fool around with the rebound and compression adjustments and wind up bringing their bikes over to me to "fix". Every time, the only upgrade needed is changing the spring rate to match the total weight (bike and rider) and adding a fork oil of matching viscosity. After doing this, the factory settings wind up being the best overall.


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## misternoob (Oct 25, 2009)

subscribed.


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## jedge1.8t (Jan 27, 2012)

So is it safe to say rebound and damperable suspensions aren't necessary for a dd. Would there be a benefit supposed to every day use stiffening, then on a long trip you soften it up? Would the extra cost for that feature be worth the money?


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

jedge1.8t said:


> So is it safe to say rebound and damperable suspensions aren't necessary for a dd. Would there be a benefit supposed to every day use stiffening, then on a long trip you soften it up? Would the extra cost for that feature be worth the money?


Likely you wouldn't want to deal with the hassle of changing the dampening settings. It isn't that quick.

This whole thread seems like a lot of contractions. You changed from the desire to improve handling to you saying you'd buy a sportier car if you wanted it to handle better.... :screwy:

So you don't want a "raced out Audi" with aftermarket bushings and you don't want the ride to be stiffer and you don't want stickier tires since they wear faster?

Not to be a hater, but it doesn't sound like you can do anything to improve handling without doing the above. Maybe an alignment but I don't think that would help much as to get the right specs you'd need aftermarket parts you don't want to buy.

My one helpful note: You definitely don't want camber plates. If anything will make your ride crappy - those will.


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

DougLoBue said:


> My one helpful note: You definitely don't want camber plates. If anything will make your ride crappy - those will.


OK, What's the alternative? Less camber? What is the maximum camber I can dial in without the plates?


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

Atomic Ed said:


> OK, What's the alternative? Less camber? What is the maximum camber I can dial in without the plates?


Around -1.5 to -1.8 depending on how far you lower the car and how much your alignment techs want to try.

You can make custom balljoint extenders like Max did. He outlined it in his cars build thread.

I'm lead to believe that daily driving in mostly straight lines with -2+ camber up front will wear tires pretty quickly.


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## jedge1.8t (Jan 27, 2012)

I dont want members that are supposing the mods on their track cars to my DD is all im saying.

We all want big brakes and 3 way adjustable coilovers and such but im primarily looking for what will give me the best bang for the buck.

so far ive found that PSS coils(have ridden these on a S4 and can really say they are pretty close to stock) $1k or ST if you want cheaper, hawk brake pads - $100, realignment - $xx, control arms - $100 and any extras reguarding correct camber or refresh on the bushings will be the best options.

As far as tires im kinda mixed about this, its easy to move up to $800 on a set of tires in this case. IPersonally I wouldnt spend much more than $140 a tire. call me cheap but college living has drawbacks


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

The above sounds very streetable to me. PSS & Hawk HPS.

Coilovers will be the best bang for your buck and really make or break your handling situation. I feel like you can buy crappy coilovers and try to compensate for their drawbacks with sway bars, bushings, buying different springs and running them lower than you're supposed to. All of this adds up to money you could have spent on a quality set to begin with. Do yourself a favor and don't get ST's.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

jedge1.8t said:


> college living has drawbacks


If I were you, I wouldn't spend a cent on suspension but would be drinking all the beer and chasing all the tail I could set my sights on. :laugh:


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

jedge1.8t said:


> call me cheap but college living has drawbacks


Welcome to the college students who own TT's club. 
The rules.... 
1 buy a daily driver. 
2 dump all money into TT 
3 worry about loans in 5 years 
:beer:


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## jedge1.8t (Jan 27, 2012)

20v master said:


> If I were you, I wouldn't spend a cent on suspension but would be drinking all the beer and chasing all the tail I could set my sights on. :laugh:


It ashames me how much money and time i waste because of this website:facepalm:


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## jedge1.8t (Jan 27, 2012)

i mean i work two jobs and take a about 10 units a semester to get by without loans and what not. With this crazy stressful life, usually the best part of my day is hitting the freeway on the way to and from school. Thats the root of where this thread and any similar thread i started came from.


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

Atomic Ed said:


> OK, What's the alternative? Less camber? What is the maximum camber I can dial in without the plates?


The offset top mounts bushings are almost identical to stock in ride quality and gives a decent amount of static camber compensation (that's why they are the ones I recommended). Real camber plates like Ground Control will offer more compensation but taxing NVH. 

Here is Krissrock's SPC offset mount install, so you guys can see the design:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5470342-SPC-Camber-Kit-install&highlight=SPC


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

DougLoBue said:


> I'm lead to believe that daily driving in mostly straight lines with -2+ camber up front will wear tires pretty quickly.


On a front heavy car with McCrapson design? You're lead to believe wrong, check your sources!


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

jedge1.8t said:


> I dont want members that are supposing the mods on their track cars to my DD is all im saying.


I take offense to this a little bit because I'm the only one giving suggestion in this thread with a track car. I took the time to elaborate on specific parts that are not only budget minded but also totally drivable without much, if any, drawbacks to comfort and civility. You have a tendency to ask questions and somehow challenge the inputs given (not just this thread). You can't ask for a certain performance standard and expect to spend China special pricing... while being very sympathetic to your college situation, you gotta play to play. If you're saying that $140 is the most you can spend on tires, you're wasting everybody's time, including yours! :wave:


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## jbrehm (May 16, 2006)

Yeah, it's pretty obvious that everyone in this thread is trying to be helpful, steering you down the path you're saying you want to go, and _not_ just trying to push what we run for ourselves. I mean, Doug and I would be telling you to pull your engine for a full rebuild and a big-ass turbo, Ed would say buy a bike since cars are slow, and Max would be telling you to buy 295 slicks. I don't mean to be a dick, but it doesn't seem like you're ready to put the work/$$$ in to have a well-sorted car; maybe consider holding off until you're done classes.


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

I for one am thankful for this thread. I feel like I finally have a definitive game plan for the suspension. I'm clueless when it comes to setting up auto suspensions. As for the camber plates, I'll give them a shot and if they don't work out, they are removable.

And as far as buy a bike because cars are slow.............................well, they are! :laugh:


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## ttwsm (Feb 27, 2011)

Atomic Ed said:


> I for one am thankful for this thread.


I second that. Lots of food for thought for myself in this thread. :thumbup:


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## Marcus_Aurelius (Mar 1, 2012)

As a follow up from my earlier discussion with Tyrolsport, I contacted Mike and was told I could come visit and grab the caliper stiffening kit right away. Gotta love and respect companies that stands behind the stuff that they make! 

So I went and meet with Mike and the crew at Tyrolsport, great friendly group and amazingly well set and kept facility. I was particularly impressed with the professionalism and dept of knowledge of the staff. I was given a tour of the entire facility, and even visited the attic to see the development work on several products. I was also given a caliper stiffening kit with some revisions that should address some of the concerns raised by some with the early version. 

The kit is well designed, just like everything Tyrolsport seems to make. But now includes high temperature boots to protect the slider from the elements, as well as a machined step on the outer housing shell. I am happy to test this prototype for them and will have a dedicated install and review thread with more details. Thank you Mike, from the entire TT community, and keep up the good work! :beer::beer:


*Entire kit with the new protective boots*


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## ModsTTand (Jul 8, 2009)

good move from Tyrolsport and looking forward on ur review cos either this or porsche monoblock caliper.:thumbup:


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## jedge1.8t (Jan 27, 2012)

not my intention to offend just you or marcus, or anyone in this thread, i respect you went all out on your cars to provide the knowledge you supplied everyone in this thread and i have learned alot from many of you. your mod list to me just seems a bit large in my eyes.

when it comes to upgrading the TT, many here branch off to what will corner the best and brake the best. where as I like to build a more luxurious and sportier version of the audi TTsport launched in euroupe. Personally im not budget oriented, but after spending lots of money on getting the sound sytem i wanted sorted out and the work it took to make that thing silent when driving, it makes me very concious of the work and money i will be spending on my car in the future.

Like my friend said, about my TT. its a car that has everything - smooth luxury, turbo performance, exotic looks, awd handling, decent gas milleage, unique design, unusual practicality. 

Im here gathering knowledge to improve all of those qualitys not just 2, mods that would help with road noise and smoothness are welcome to this thread to. so anyways, carry on with the modifications.


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## [email protected] (May 14, 2009)

Marcus_Aurelius said:


> As a follow up from my earlier discussion with Tyrolsport, I contacted Mike and was told I could come visit and grab the caliper stiffening kit right away. Gotta love and respect companies that stands behind the stuff that they make!
> 
> So I went and meet with Mike and the crew at Tyrolsport, great friendly group and amazingly well set and kept facility. I was particularly impressed with the professionalism and dept of knowledge of the staff. I was given a tour of the entire facility, and even visited the attic to see the development work on several products. I was also given a caliper stiffening kit with some revisions that should address some of the concerns raised by some with the early version.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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