# 90 Fox seems to be flooding-won't start



## Beetleguru (May 15, 2000)

I need help from the experts.
Here's a link to my original thread in the FOX forums.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3519863
If you don't want to check that link here's what I know:
1.Car stalled on me while driving. Restarted with a few extra cranks and drove it to a parking space.
2. Came out from shopping and it took a few extra cranks but started. Drove fine for about 20 feet then shut off. Wouldn't restart.
3. I figured transfer pump since it is original. 
4. Got home and bought a pump and relay
5. Jumped the relay for about 45 seconds and then replaced the relay. The car started and ran fine. No issues. I figured the relay was the issue.
6. Next day I tried starting it again and it would crank and run for about two seconds and then die. 
7. I changed the pump in the tank. Made no difference.
8. I've tested the coil and wires. Replaced the plugs, cap, and rotor. All tested fine.
9. Tested the plugs while turning over the engine. They have spark.
10. Pulled and tested the 5th injector. It sprays fine. Car smells of raw gas (from exhaust) after it runs and dies. Any attempt to press on the throttle instantly kills the engine. If you try to start it with the throttle to the floor it will not start at all.
11. I have removed the intake manifold boot to the air cleaner box and checked for cracks, leaks, etc. Also checked vacuum connections. All are fine. I've also cleaned out the air box and air filer checking for restrictions. All check out.
12. I pulled the timing belt cover to check that the belt didn't jump. Feels tight to me.
Next will be pulling injectors. Just waiting to borrow a tool.
Any suggestions? My car has been down for two weeks now.
Thanks
Dave













_Modified by Beetleguru at 6:03 PM 11-13-2007_


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: 90 Fox seems to be flooding-won't start (Beetleguru)*

You seem to be on the right track for diagnosis. What fuel system is in that? CIS-E Jetronic or Motronic?
You don't need a tool to pull the injectors....grab a line and pull hard. The only thing that holds those in place is the o rings. Replace them when you have them out. They can cause a vacuum leak.
Try jumping the relay again.
Why is your cold start injector firing if the vehicle is warm? It shouldn't be.


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## Beetleguru (May 15, 2000)

Vehicle isn't warm. LOL, it's only runs for a second or two. It really seems as if the spark shuts off. I don't know. Haven't had a chance to pull the injectors yet. Will update later.


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## rku (Nov 16, 2007)

*Re: (Beetleguru)*

I have a 90 Fox that started sputtering occasionally, and finally wouldn't run at all. I did a whole bunch of stuff, like you're doing, including replacing the fuel pumps. It had spark and gas but it wouldn't idle or rev. Finally my mechanic figured out it was running way too rich and fouling the injectors/plugs so he started going over the electrical system and traced it to the Electronic Control Unit. The leads to the fuel distributor were dead. He said the ECUs fail sometimes. We're going to swap it out this week. That might be something to look at on your Fox also. They're the same year. But yours looks in a lot better shape!


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## Beetleguru (May 15, 2000)

According to the Bentley when testing the control module it says there should be 2 volts DC minimum and then it drops to 0 after one to two seconds. Mine shows 1 volt and doesn't drop to zero. Bentley says replace the module. I just hate to replace it if it isn't the issue. Anyone have experience with this?


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## iamdagerman (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: (Beetleguru)*

dude theres a wire spice behide the dash from the fuel ump relay to the pumps,warmup regulater, and the idle up valve. On my beloved Golf this spice was burned up and was causeing the exact same problem u mentioned. To get to it u will need to remove the realy/fuse panel and trace the wire coming out of the back of the fuel pump relay into the harrness. Well it's worth a try. Before I fgured this out I replaced like 5 relays and transfer pumps before I noticed that moreing to fuse panel around effected the problem


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## Beetleguru (May 15, 2000)

Ok, so my computer crashed so let me try this again.
Here are the readings from my Bentley tests.
Section 7 (Ignition), pgs 8 and 9. 
3.4 Testing the hall sender and Ignition control unit
3.4 test 1.This first test is looking for approx 12 volts at the connector for the ICU. My car showed 11.85 volts. FYI, my battery is weak from sitting.
3.5 test is checking voltage between the coil terminals. Here's where my car has an issue.
The volt meter shows .001 volts or 1.3 MV. The test said it should be 2 volts minimum. If not, check wiring. Wiring looks ok. Then it says the voltage should drop to zero in 1-2 seconds. Mine doesn't drop. Bentley says the ICU is bad and to replace.
The next test says to ground the hall sender wire. Voltage should rise to 2 volts. Mine does not. It also says to replace the control unit.
I did. I got one from a junkyard, tested it in a friend's fox and it started and ran fine. INstalled it in mine and there is no difference. Starts and dies seconds later like before.

3.6 Test hall sender. Voltage on mine was above the requirement of 5 volts.
3.7 I tested the hall sender. My car tested at 10.60 down to .058 when turning the engine over by hand. Bentley say there should be between 0 and 2 volts DC. If not, replace the hall sender.
OK, so one test says it's good and the other says it's bad??
I'm confused.
What can you Bentley gurus tell me? I'm so sick of this problem with my car. Lost my job and then lost my car. Not making for a good month.
Help!


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## Beetleguru (May 15, 2000)

I went and did all the tests again.
The final Bentley test for the hall sender is on pg 9 of chapter 7. the figure is 3.7. In this test you are supposed to get zero-2 volts when cranking the car by hand. I get 10.58 volts by just turning on the key. When rotating the engine it drops a bit to between 8.73 and 9.7 volts. Unless I am doing something wrong this is way out of whack. Plus, it doesn't match the earlier test.


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (Beetleguru)*

Bentley manual DOES have errors and inconsistent info. I would not replace an ECU because Bentley said so. But now you do have a spare.
Having a bad Hall sensor could cause the vehicle to not start. If your friend has a working car, why not swap the dizzy from theirs to yours as a test?
On Motronic, with no signal from the hall sender the fuel pump will not operate. Not sure if this is true of Jetronic. Take a look at your wiring diagram and see where the leads go.
What happens if you jump the fuel pump relay with a wire?


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## Beetleguru (May 15, 2000)

The car does start like normal but then shuts off just like someone turned off the key.


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## Beetleguru (May 15, 2000)

OK VW people, here are some video diagnostics for you to digest.


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (Beetleguru)*

Pictures are a wee bit blurred and require some sort of explanation.....


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## Beetleguru (May 15, 2000)

*Re: (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_Pictures are a wee bit blurred and require some sort of explanation.....

What do you need me to explain that wasn't heard in the video? The only purpose of these videos was to show you guys the readings I got as compared to the Bentley book. I was hoping someone could shed some light on them.
Dave


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (Beetleguru)*

Ahhh....I see. Video. I am on dialup....each video takes 5 minutes to load....I didn't realize that those were videos.....I have high speed at work, but no audio.....


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## NJRoadfan (Sep 16, 2006)

*Re: 90 Fox seems to be flooding-won't start (Beetleguru)*

Test every sensor you can, including the coolant temp. sensor for the ECU. That one tends to cause the most trouble. If its CIS-E, a faulty control pressure actuator could be causing the problem as well.


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## NJRoadfan (Sep 16, 2006)

*Re: 90 Fox seems to be flooding-won't start (NJRoadfan)*

I didn't check the videos to see if you did it already but check if power is going to the ECU. The ECU is usually grounded via a few wires to the intake manifold. After being exposed to the heat in the engine bay for many years these wires usually become brittle and break or create an intermittent connection. If the wires look sketchy or are broken, strip and replace the bad section of wire. Don't forget to check the fuse for the ECU too. Many folks in the past thought their ECU died when it really wasn't getting any power since it wasn't grounded.


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## Beetleguru (May 15, 2000)

*Re: 90 Fox seems to be flooding-won't start (NJRoadfan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NJRoadfan* »_Test every sensor you can, including the coolant temp. sensor for the ECU. That one tends to cause the most trouble. If its CIS-E, a faulty control pressure actuator could be causing the problem as well.

I don't have the Bentley handy where I am at now so I don't recall seeing anything about a control pressure actuator. What and were is it?
I tested all connections for the ECU and checked all fuses.
dave


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## NJRoadfan (Sep 16, 2006)

*Re: 90 Fox seems to be flooding-won't start (Beetleguru)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Beetleguru* »_
I don't have the Bentley handy where I am at now so I don't recall seeing anything about a control pressure actuator. What and were is it?


Assuming your car is CIS-E, its the gray box mounted to the front of the fuel distributor. Its plug is where you connect your ammeter to set the static fuel mixture.
It kinda looks like this :


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## NJRoadfan (Sep 16, 2006)

*Re: 90 Fox seems to be flooding-won't start (NJRoadfan)*

Finally found the thread from a Audi 4kq owner with a similar problem. Replacing the above part fixed it: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3195384


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## DEWEED (May 2, 2003)

*Re: 90 Fox seems to be flooding-won't start (Beetleguru)*

is it dying before or after you stop turning the key? my old 79 would start up and run but as soon as i dropped the key it would die. the problem was a faulty switched power lead. might be worth checkin out. try jumping your ignition coil straight from the battery. if it works, a bad switched power lead might be your problem. just a thought.
word of caution though, i dont know if jumping it will cause problems with your ecu. hopefully someone knows the answer to that and chime in.


_Modified by DEWEED at 10:58 PM 11-30-2007_


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## Beetleguru (May 15, 2000)

I appreciate everyone's helpful suggestions. I was also thinking some sore of ignition situation because once the car starts it sounds just like someone has turned off the car when it dies. It's like there is some interruption to the electrical. Any suggestions on what I should test for power source issues? Just power to the coil or???


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## CodeMan (May 12, 2006)

*Re: (Beetleguru)*

check continuity from ICM to ground. if you get continuity, make sure the ground isn't loose and loosing contact with engine vibration.


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## DEWEED (May 2, 2003)

*Re: (Beetleguru)*

check the power to anything and everything in your car that deals with with ignition and fuel.







No but seriously though, pour thru the electrical system. If you think its ignition, start there and move on to fuel when you've checked everything.


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## Beetleguru (May 15, 2000)

I was thinking maybe a break in ignition power. However, when I test the coilkd when someone starts it there is constant power coming from BOTH sides of the coil, even after the car turns off. Once the key is turned to the off position the power to the coil is off.


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## Beetleguru (May 15, 2000)

Latest update. I changed the distributor, changed the coil, and changed the ignition. But there is no change in the car.


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (Beetleguru)*

By changing the ignition, did you change the ignition switch, or the ignition control module?


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (Beetleguru)*

Okay....I managed to see some of the videos. I have an idea about this.
In the CIS FAQ there is a link to how to check the DPR, which is the grey plastic piece that attaches directly to the Fuel dizzy on the driver's side. There is a two prong harness that connects to it. You need to adjust this with a multimeter to 10mA and fluctuating (this is an 8v, right?)
You might not be able to get this adjusted properly without the vehicle running, but try adjusting the 3mm screw 1/4 turn in one direction, and starting it, and the same in the other direction. See if one of these makes it run better.
If you haven't done so already, replace the white two prong temp sensor.
Also, if you can remove the air boot and post a picture of the throttle plate, that would be helpful.
It appears fairly clear to me, based on the videos, that your vehicle is starting off of the cold start injector, but not getting fuel from the regular injectors. Try disconnecting the DPR and starting without it connected at all.
Pull one of the injectors and make sure it is spraying when you turn the ignition and try to start the car. Lots more to do, but start with this.


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## Beetleguru (May 15, 2000)

I broke down (no pun intended) and had it towed to a show today. I'll let you know what they find. My next step was going to be to check fuel pressure.


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## rec409 (Aug 13, 2007)

*HAD A SIMILAR PROB!!*

I fix this problem by REPLACING the HALL CONTROL MODULE I was having the same problems as this, and it progressivly got to the point that it wouldnt even spark the plugs in under compression,, but they wouls spark out of the engine!?..
anyways I replaced mine, and it started right up,(providing you have all your other settings in a range that will allow it to start up).
so have a look at this if you havent.. I fought with mine for a while thinking that (what the heck, ive got spark whats wrong with this thing,)) but thats what it was,, 
good luck







I have a 1988 FOX 1.8l ECU in perfect cond that I have on ebay.. it worked perfectly, if you need another one. 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...h=007



_Modified by rec409 at 9:45 PM 12-5-2007_


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: HAD A SIMILAR PROB!! (rec409)*


_Quote, originally posted by *rec409* »_I fix this problem by REPLACING the HALL CONTROL MODULE I was having the same problems as this, 

His car is starting and dying right away, I think, from the videos. So it appears that he does have ignition, but not fuel.


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## Germany_MOM (Aug 3, 2001)

*Re: 90 Fox seems to be flooding-won't start (NJRoadfan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NJRoadfan* »_If its CIS-E, a faulty control pressure actuator could be causing the problem as well.

Actually, CIS-E has constant 5 bar control pressure. The EHA/DPR controls differential pressure, not control pressure. 
Dave, I'd love to see a current reading on the DPR.


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## NJRoadfan (Sep 16, 2006)

*Re: 90 Fox seems to be flooding-won't start (TeraFox)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TeraFox* »_
Actually, CIS-E has constant 5 bar control pressure. The EHA/DPR controls differential pressure, not control pressure. 
Dave, I'd love to see a current reading on the DPR.

my bad, I was referring to the DPR.


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: 90 Fox seems to be flooding-won't start (NJRoadfan)*


_Quote, originally posted by *NJRoadfan* »_
my bad, I was referring to the DPR.

That is what your picture was of, so there was no problem....
I don't think he can get an accurate DPR reading right now. The engine dies right away. DPRs take a minute or two to adjust...need a warm 02 sensor etc. This car is dying right away. It should run without the DPR connected, in limp mode. So, he might be better to disconnect it and try to start it.


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## Beetleguru (May 15, 2000)

*Re: 90 Fox seems to be flooding-won't start (TeraFox)*


_Quote, originally posted by *TeraFox* »_
Actually, CIS-E has constant 5 bar control pressure. The EHA/DPR controls differential pressure, not control pressure. 
Dave, I'd love to see a current reading on the DPR.

OK, what is the DPR? Anyway, no word yet from the mechanic.


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## NJRoadfan (Sep 16, 2006)

*Re: 90 Fox seems to be flooding-won't start (Beetleguru)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Beetleguru* »_
OK, what is the DPR? Anyway, no word yet from the mechanic.

See the picture I linked above. It controls the amount of fuel coming out of the injectors based on calculations made by the ECU from the coolant, o2, and altitude sensors. Using a test harness like below, it should hover around 10mA when the car is warmed up and idling. When it isn't working right, it can cause strange problems ranging from running like crap (running rich is common) to causing the car to randomly die and not start again. If you happen to have a spare, swap it in and see what happens.


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_
In the CIS FAQ there is a link to how to check the DPR, which is the grey plastic piece that attaches directly to the Fuel dizzy on the driver's side. There is a two prong harness that connects to it. 

You cannot adjust this until you can get the car running. Try disconnecting it. Just disconnect the wiring harness and try starting the car.


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## slack31337 (Dec 8, 2007)

any update from the mech?


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## Beetleguru (May 15, 2000)

Nothing yet. Seems my car is really living up to her name (Mystery).


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (PASHAT)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PASHAT* »_
It appears fairly clear to me, based on the videos, that your vehicle is starting off of the cold start injector, but not getting fuel from the regular injectors. Try disconnecting the DPR and starting without it connected at all.


What happens when you do this?


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## Beetleguru (May 15, 2000)

What is the DPR anyway? 
Here's an update from the mechanic. He's thinking there is some issue with the wiring from the fuel pump relay. I'll post once I know more.


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## PASHAT (Oct 23, 2006)

*Re: (Beetleguru)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Beetleguru* »_What is the DPR anyway? 


Please re-read your entire post. DPR has been previously identified.


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## Beetleguru (May 15, 2000)

update:
The mechanic says there is either a ground issue or a problem with the fuse box. He told me in all his years of working on VWs he's never A. Seen a Fox this clean (the good news) and B, never had a VW confound him like this one (the bad $$ news).


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## Beetleguru (May 15, 2000)

Mystery SOLVED!
Well, the total is in ($$ OUCH $$) but Mystery is running again. So here's the deal, one of the wires going to the fuse box (to the fuel pump relay) was not getting power once the car was started, and the NEW fuel pump relay was intermittantly working. The mechanic said he had never seen a situation like this before.
On the plus side, I don't feel like an idiot for not being able to figure it out. I did have proper intuition (remember how I said it seemed like the car was being switched off) in that it was electrical. I guess now I just had some expensive schooling. Maybe my issue will help someone in the future.
Dave


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