# 2010 Golf.....P0016 code being thrown, looking for advice on what Im looking at here...



## sneedham6 (May 9, 2010)

So Im the 2nd owner and past owner had not done any repairs related to the tensioner or chain that he knew of from what I remember from back then. Ran the OBDeleven and it produced the P0016.

Car's symptoms are really none beyond it takes an extra second of extended cranking to start. Otherwise the car drives just fine still, power delivery is smooth, idle is nice.....nothing stands out as wrong once its started

From prior lurking here and on vortex, I've always read stories of p0016 resulting in non-starting conditions with very harsh rides and responses. In my example, the car is great beyond the extended start. I pulled these off OBDelevene but am not too skilled in interpreting them.

Thanks for any guidance about where to go next. Until then the car wont be used as a daily driver.


https://ibb.co/2W4PV6t

https://ibb.co/bs50z09

https://ibb.co/ZKRbqDL

https://ibb.co/z4wN50B


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## sneedham6 (May 9, 2010)

FWIW thomas excovcds suggested I try looking at the oil control solenoid first as he had something similar to deal with.


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## Ronny Bensys (Apr 17, 2014)

How many miles do you have on the vehicle? Is it a CBTA?


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## sneedham6 (May 9, 2010)

Hello

186,000kms or 115500 miles. It is also a CBTA.

So since my last post thomas exco has explained to me the values in the measuring blocks as I couldnt find specs for what's appropriate. (Is there a way to obtain this?)

He explained to me the value in block 91 of 4.7% is the learned value the computer is using to adjust my tensioner. He said it's a bad problem when the learned value is getting to 6.

Also since then ..I just took off my n205 valve but haven't bench tested it as I was trying to find the ohms resistance for these 

Other than that, when I clear the code the car starts a lot better, like normally but the code does come back.


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## Ronny Bensys (Apr 17, 2014)

Did the previous owner treat the vehicle well in the past? Do you have service records? What grade oil has been used in the past?

N205 controls variable valve timing - VVT. P0016 is related to crankshaft / camshaft correlation. P0016 is a very accurate code, not like other more generic codes like P0106, P030x.


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## sneedham6 (May 9, 2010)

She never kept records but when I purchased it back then I knew she had work done at the local VW dealer. I was able to check her records then and confirm it had been serviced there since she moved here a few years ago. I called the dealership again to see if the chain was ever serviced there though and they said no. I personally have not taken the car to the dealer since buying it.

Other than that, she was from a military family that moved 3 times in the past 10 years. It had to pass 3 safeties in 3 provinces which can be an expensive process if the car is bad structurally so I know that was performed well.

I knew the p0016 is very specific but thomas suggested trying it as he had a sticky once. At startup it wouldnt adjust the cams quickly enough since it was sticky so it threw the timing off at start.

I'm fully prepared though to accept a chain job. I'm not daily driving it right now and saving up $3000 for the repair.


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## sneedham6 (May 9, 2010)

As I understand eventually the design of these 2.5s were improved from the earlier models? I'm guessing though that still wouldnt mean the CBTAs were bullet proof from tensioner wear and chain stretch after 180000kms?


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## Ronny Bensys (Apr 17, 2014)

We yet to live and see if the CBTA's chain system is reliable beyond 200k kilometers. But the 2.5l has been reengineered and chain system is the most improved one compared to older gen BGPs. So far I've not read anyone reporting a chain issue with the CBTA/CBUA in this section. On the other hand, VW used the new engines in Audi TT with considerably higher power outputs where the 2.5l proved to be very reliable.

You need to investigate the type of oil used and OCI.


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## sneedham6 (May 9, 2010)

Thank you for the reply.

Just to add, I took out the oil control solenoid and sent a video to thomas who thinks it's working fine. At this point I'll be taking it to a shop in the new year. Thomas said they will likely check the cam and crank signals at startup/idle to see how it's looking.

Like I said I'm putting aside 3,000 for the repair. If it does need full timing chain replacement, I've seen suggestions it's just better off to put a lower km engine in vs retiming the current one once it's taken out. Any thoughts on that as there is a 50k km and 100k CBTA within 100kms of me.

I'll update the post at that point.


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## sneedham6 (May 9, 2010)

Another question I had is if the past troubles were related to both upper and lower chain and tensioners?

Is there any chance the problem could be just related to the easier accessed upper chain/tensioner? Is there a way to pinpoint that the lower chain/tensioner is still fine?


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## Ronny Bensys (Apr 17, 2014)

sneedham6 said:


> Thank you for the reply.
> 
> Just to add, I took out the oil control solenoid and sent a video to thomas who thinks it's working fine. At this point I'll be taking it to a shop in the new year. Thomas said they will likely check the cam and crank signals at startup/idle to see how it's looking.
> 
> ...


Did you mean N205 by "oil control solenoid"? You could test the solenoid if you had a multimeter. Specified value: 5.0 to 9.0 ohms

Checking voltage:
- Switch the ignition on (do not start).
- Using a multimeter, Check the Camshaft Control Valve (N205) electrical harness connector terminals for voltage.

Specified value: battery voltage (12.5V)


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## Ronny Bensys (Apr 17, 2014)

sneedham6 said:


> Another question I had is if the past troubles were related to both upper and lower chain and tensioners?
> 
> Is there any chance the problem could be just related to the easier accessed upper chain/tensioner? Is there a way to pinpoint that the lower chain/tensioner is still fine?


The longer one stretches more. Not sure about a possible way to check the lower one.


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## sneedham6 (May 9, 2010)

Yeah I checked the electrical stuff with the solenoid and it all checked out. Like I said I will be leaving it with the pros from here on out.

Just checking, the lower chain is the longer one?


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## itsnotanova (Apr 10, 2013)

Did you find out what the issue was? I'm have the same exact issues with my wife's 2011 Golf. I switched the cam position sensor and n205 from a donor 2014 and it had no affect


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## itsnotanova (Apr 10, 2013)

Ronny Bensys said:


> You need to investigate the type of oil used and OCI.


What type is bad?


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## Ronny Bensys (Apr 17, 2014)

itsnotanova said:


> Did you find out what the issue was? I'm have the same exact issues with my wife's 2011 Golf. I switched the cam position sensor and n205 from a donor 2014 and it had no affect


Take it to a mechanic. How many miles do you have on it?


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## Ronny Bensys (Apr 17, 2014)

itsnotanova said:


> What type is bad?


Any oil other than 5w-40 and 0w-40 is bad.


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## sneedham6 (May 9, 2010)

Just a quick update but I'm taking it to a local garage here in Saskatoon tomorrow. I'm hoping the repair stays under $3,000 and that I never have to worry about the timing chain again on this car. Will update when I know more.


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## itsnotanova (Apr 10, 2013)

I've had two different friends tell me it's the upper chain tensioner. I'm hoping so because it's a $120 diy fix


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## Ronny Bensys (Apr 17, 2014)

itsnotanova said:


> I've had two different friends tell me it's the upper chain tensioner. I'm hoping so because it's a $120 diy fix


How are you planning to do upper chain tensioner without removing the transmission?


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## itsnotanova (Apr 10, 2013)

Ronny Bensys said:


> How are you planning to do upper chain tensioner without removing the transmission?


I'm no expert on the 2.5, but from what I've seen you don't need to remove the transmission to replace the upper tensioner. It's a 3 hour job from what I've heard.


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## sneedham6 (May 9, 2010)

So just an update....

I dropped off the car last Tuesday and still dont have it back yet.

Took it to a VW mechanic here in town who is familiar with this engine. I know some here say it's only an early 2.5 liter problem but locally my mechanic says it's still not the longest lasting chain hes ever seen. He has done enough of these that he has now developed his own makeshift mirror and light to inspect the lower chain parts. He says only once that he replaced only the upper chain parts where a few months later the lower parts were also truly needed.

After diagnosis he is not touching the lower chain parts but the timing was off by about 2 teeth. We are replacing every part related to the upper chain. Right now we are still waiting for parts to come in.

I'll be honest that his estimate for the repair even based on his hourly rate took me back a little as he quoted me $2700. I was under the impression that doing the upper was much lower in hours. Can the markup for Canadian parts really be that high? I'll just see what the final bill is before deciding if ita fair....


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## sneedham6 (May 9, 2010)

Just so I know ahead of time....anyone know what the labour should be for everything related to the upper chain components including a reasonable diagnosis time?


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## itsnotanova (Apr 10, 2013)

Mine turned out to be the tensioner


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## sneedham6 (May 9, 2010)

Well bad news for me...the code has returned about 9000 kms later.

Recently went on a large roadtrip that was 3900 kms in total. About 2500 kms from home, we started noticing a stalling/sputtering engine on the first start of the day. After that the car would start fine the rest of the day. No CEL was produced.

However, about 600kms from home a CEL was produced on a Saturday. The best we did was get a scan at a store where we got P0011 for timing over advanced with fuel warnings about being too rich and lean. We drove home still as it was Saturday and the car still felt fine when driving.

Got home Sunday and cleared the codes. Car was starting fine for 2 days before today on Tuesday. Out of nowhere, the extended crank came back, the CEL came back but now with the P0016 code again.

I will call the mechanic again but I'm afraid replacing the upper chain parts maybe wasnt enough. Not sure I can afford to do the repairs involved with the lower chain so might need to make some tough decisions soon....

Will keep updated.


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## Ronny Bensys (Apr 17, 2014)

sneedham6 said:


> Well bad news for me...the code has returned about 9000 kms later.


Did you read German Will's recent discovery? I'd call it discovery of the decade if didn't witness dieselgate.

Check this.

https://forums.vwvortex.com/#/topics/9407477


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## sneedham6 (May 9, 2010)

Very interesting....missed that thread and read it thoroughly. My car is a manual transmission and I dont rev it and am really good at match revving down from 4-3 and 3-2. 

As its summertime, I can work outside on the car. I think I might go ahead and buy the timing tools and try timing up the upper chain again and see if it comes back. I cant imagine the chain and guides were down after 9000 kms??


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## Ronny Bensys (Apr 17, 2014)

but Will explains how a corrected upper chain goes out after some time because of untight or stretched lower chain. No matter you rev it or not there are other causes contributing to the failure of lower tensioner. Revving just reveals the issue.


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## sneedham6 (May 9, 2010)

Well hopefully I didnt stretch the upper already after only 8000 kms as I really trusted my VW mechanic when he said only the upper was needed.

I'm leaning now towards not checking the upper myself and taking it back to the same mechanic. Considering the amount I paid the first time i hope hes reasonable about double checking his work.


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## sneedham6 (May 9, 2010)

Anyone have a thought about what the labour hours should be to change the lower chain and tensioner?


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## sneedham6 (May 9, 2010)

So forgot to update this awhile ago. Seeing how the timing problem came back I thought I would update.

As the timing went bad on a trip to BC/Vancouver last Summee, my mechanic slightly wondered if the engine might have rolled backwards at any point. He took the time to retire the engine one more time for free, but advised if the timing goes again we will likely need to do the lower chain.

It's almost 1 year to to the day but the same timing problems are coming up when it comes to engine starting. Ran good for a whole year and we got about 18,000kms on that 2nd timing before the issue came back.

I'm now in an awkward spot of deciding what I want to do. I already sunk money in buying the car used for a decent discount from the past owner. (My mistake for not researching but if I had known how extensice the full timing job was, I would have asked for the car for free)

I'm also in a few thousand for the work done on the initial diagnosis and upper chain repair.

My gfs dad has his own garage/lift in Winnipeg and I'm now thinking I take a week of vacation and hammer out the rest of my repairs myself. I'm afraid of going back to the same garage to pay the high labour rates, as the lower change will be a lot of labour hours for removing the tranny.

At 214,000ish kms, the csr is maybe worth $5500 at this point. I already have a 2nd car (2010 Corolla) as well as $6000 in my car repair/replacement fund.

I'm just wondering if chasing this repair is worth. Chalk it up to an expensive lesson on proper research of timing chain replacements and move on?

I dont rely on it for a daily driver as I have the Corolla still.


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## sneedham6 (May 9, 2010)

Anyone know what the labour hours would be for finishing the lower chain, vs just grabbing a used engine?

I know it's a 2010 so maybe it's just an unlucky one after the initial 08 fix.


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