# J367 Battery Monitoring Controller Replacement (Includes RVU TB 27-06-02) [TOC, Photos done]



## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Hello All:

We have had quite a few discussions here in the forum over the past 6 months about problems that arise from low voltage on the Vehicle Power Supply Battery (the left side battery). As most of you know by now, if the voltage level drops below a certain level on this battery, the Phaeton will sometimes generate fault messages on the Y24 display (the screen between the speedometer and the tachometer), such as "Suspension Fault - Workshop" or "Running Gear Fault" or even "Brake Fault". Truth is, there is nothing wrong with any of these components - these messages are only being generated because of low voltage being supplied to the controllers for the different items such as suspension or ABS. Easy enough for us to say this in the forum, but that's small comfort to a new Phaeton owner when they are confronted with these stern messages during their first month of ownership.

This raises the question "Why is the battery voltage low in the first place?" As we have learned, there can be quite a few causes for low voltage on the Vehicle Power Supply Battery. In approximate order of probability, the causes are as follows:

*1)* New Phaeton owner is sitting in his or her Phaeton in the garage, listening to the awesome sound system, and reading through the owner manual, trying to figure out how the car works. Engine is off. After about an hour, the battery runs down.

*2)* Phaeton is at the VW dealer getting some kind of service done (maybe an oil change), and the Phaeton technician either does not hook up a battery maintaining system to the car, or, hooks it up to the terminals under the hood, instead of hooking it up to the Vehicle Power Supply Battery.

*3)* The Vehicle Power Supply Battery is 'worn out', because the Phaeton was sitting in the showroom as a demonstrator for 3 months - without a battery maintainer hooked up to the Vehicle Power Supply Battery - and the battery went flat so many times that now it is incapable of holding a full charge.

*4)* Something drains current from the Vehicle Power Supply Battery when the Phaeton is parked for a week, unused, in the garage. This might be the little portable fridge or DVD player an owner forgot to unplug from the 12 volt outlet, or, it might be some rare, strange fault of a system in the car that continues to draw power when it should not draw power.

*5)* For some reason, the Phaeton is not fully charging the (healthy) Vehicle Power Supply Battery when it is being driven.
I encountered the problem of false warning messages on my Phaeton several months ago. I took the car to my dealer, who checked the car out very carefully. He ruled out number 3 (above), because my dealer had installed a new left side battery as part of the PDI process - my Phaeton had been in the showroom for 6 months before I bought it. I knew the problem was not caused by item 1, and the Phaeton technician knew it was not caused by item 2. I ruled out problems that I might have caused related to item 4. We didn't think it was probable that I had a rare, strange problem of some other system. The guided fault finding system that the technicians use (part of the VAS 5052 scan tool) suggested that the generator be replaced. The tech at my dealership thought that was not a good idea, and disregarded that suggestion. So, that left item 5 as the only 'probable cause' of my low battery charge condition.

Around the same time, there were some posts made by other owners who were having the same problem. Joe (jmdpjd1) posted about his problems, and the experience he had - his dealer replaced both of the batteries. That post is here: Two bad batteries. Rodger (phaeton Also) posted about his problems in this thread Report on first 3000 mile trip. As you can see if you read his thread, he had a whole slew of problems, and his Phaeton technician replaced his J367 Battery Monitoring Controller with a new one at part number suffix C (software revision 2700) status.

Since my problems were happening at the same time as Joe and Rodger's, the Phaeton tech at my dealer and I decided we would wait a month or so, and see how things worked out for Joe and Rodger. In the meantime, Robert (iluvmcr) made a post about his electrical problems here: My Phaeton's electrical problems long gone, and that thread evolved into an interesting discussion of Principles of Troubleshooting.

Well - after six weeks passed, Rodger reported back that his Phaeton was trouble-free after having had the Battery Management Controller replaced. This whole issue of battery discharge also came up for discussion at the German Phaeton owner get-together, but the German owners reported that it was uncommon, and in any case, they never had to go back to their dealership more than once to get it fixed. I discussed this with the Phaeton tech at my dealer, and we decided that it would make sense to replace that same controller on my car. During the 6 week time period, I had been very careful to not do anything that would discharge the Vehicle Power Supply Battery, but despite that, my battery showed that it only held 80% of a full charge. Since we knew there was nothing wrong with the battery itself, the logical thing to do was to replace the Battery Management Controller.

I was allowed to watch the process, and I took some pictures for the forum. I won't really know for sure if this action - replacing the controller - was the right decision until about a month from now. I know that the 'baseline' charge level for my battery was about 80% (414 amps out of 480 total) before replacing the controller, and this was after 6 weeks of being very careful to not discharge the battery in any way. In about a month's time, I will take my Phaeton back to my dealer, and we will check the battery charge level again. If it is significantly higher than the baseline, then that should prove that we made the correct choice.

I'm not suggesting that replacing this controller is the magic answer for any electrical problem on a Phaeton. But, it does seem to have solved the problem for Rodger, and in a month or so, when I take the car back to have the battery charge level checked, we'll find out if my Phaeton is doing a better job of keeping the Vehicle Power Supply Battery fully charged as a result of replacing this controller.

Michael

Just a postscript: On the way home from my dealer, I stopped by another Toronto VW dealer just down the road, to say Hello to a forum member who works there as a salesperson. He showed me a Phaeton sitting on their back lot that VW had just bought back from a customer (they replaced it with a 2005). It was waiting for VW to pick it up and send it out for auction. I asked him what the problems were. It seems that Phaeton had all sorts of electrical problems - fault messages about suspension, brake faults, running gear faults, etc. - and it had been in for service numerous times, but the messages kept coming back. It's unfortunate that this buy-back happened, because I think we might have figured out how to identify, and possibly solve the cause of these problems. My guess is that a battery management controller replacement is less expensive than a buyback.

*Checking the health of the battery using the special VW Battery Checking Tool*
It is not necessary to take the battery out of the Phaeton to do this. It was just easiest to take pictures this way.


















*The printout from the Battery Checking Tool*
Although my battery voltage was good (11.93 volts), the battery was not fully charged - only 414 amps out of a possible 480. The tool recommended that the battery be recharged. _ *This was, we think, the key diagnostic point in figuring out the whole problem.*_ If the battery was not fully charged after I had just finished driving the Phaeton for 100 miles on a summer day - then, the Phaeton was not sending enough 'recharge' back to that battery.









*Part way through the disassembly process*
The relay panel has been removed and set to one side, and the bolt holding the battery in place is being loosened.









*Location of the J367 Controller*









*The old and new controllers*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: J367 Battery Monitoring Controller Replacement (PanEuropean)*

Apropos of this same topic, I can't stress enough the great importance of hooking up a battery maintaining system to the Vehicle Power Supply Battery (*NOT *to the booster terminals under the hood) whenever any maintenance work is being done on a Phaeton. Normally, during maintenance work such as diagnostic scans or troubleshooting, the ignition is left on. A Phaeton will draw quite a bit of power if the ignition is on and the engine is not running - heck, just the daytime running lights (DRLs) alone draw a lot of power from the battery.

As most folks know, there are two batteries in each Phaeton. The one on the right side, the starter battery, is only used to start the car, and as emergency backup. The battery on the left side, the Vehicle Power Supply Battery (the larger of the two) is the one that powers all the comfort systems, such as lights, audio, and controllers.

There are two posts under the hood of a Phaeton that can be used to hook up external power for the purpose of boost-starting a Phaeton that has two dead batteries. The negative post goes directly to ground, the positive post leads to the starter itself, and to the starter battery. It does not connect to the Vehicle Power Supply Battery, unless the battery paralleling relay is closed - and the battery paralleling relay is normally open, not closed. This means that you cannot maintain the charge on the Vehicle Power Supply Battery by hooking up a charger to the posts under the hood! You have to hook the battery maintainer (or battery charger) up directly to the top of the Vehicle Power Supply Battery.

Below are some pictures: The first picture shows how external power is connected to maintain the charge in the Vehicle Power Supply Battery at the Transparent Factory in Dresden (it's pretty safe to assume those folks know what they are doing!), and the second picture shows how my Swiss VW dealer keeps the Vehicle Power Supply Battery charged when they put a Phaeton in the showroom. The last picture is a wiring diagram of a Phaeton - it's pretty easy to see that electricity supplied to the posts under the hood will *NOT *feed the Vehicle Power Supply Battery.

Michael


*Phaeton being assembled at the Transparent Factory in Dresden*









*Phaeton in showroom with battery maintainer hooked up*










*Wiring Diagram - note the open relay between the post under the hood and the Vehicle Power Supply Battery*










*The red (positive) terminal under the hood is identified as TV2 in the diagram above. *
_As you can see from looking at the diagram, it is impossible for power connected to this terminal to make it back to the vehicle power supply battery._


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: J367 Battery Monitoring Controller Replacement (PanEuropean)*

Just a follow-up note to provide additional information about the battery testing procedure, using the special VW battery testing tool (the Midtronics MCR340V Battery Analyzer):

The attached PDF file provides detailed instructions for testing the batteries in a Phaeton. Whenever ANY kind of electrical problems are encountered (unusual warning displays, such as described in the posts above, Phaeton not starting properly, stuff like that) it is essential that the first step in the diagnostic procedure be to check the condition of the batteries, to rule out low voltage *and/or* a low charge condition from the batteries - especially the Vehicle Power Supply Battery, the left side one - before any further troubleshooting work is done.

There are two notes in this document that are worthy of special attention. First is the note at the top of page 3, which states *"Phaetons with V8 or W12 engines: Go directly to the battery terminals. Do not use the remote location (under the hood)" *Second is the note about halfway down the first page, which provides a reminder that the Vehicle Power Supply Battery (the left hand battery) in all Phaetons is an 'Absorbed Glass Mat' (AGM) battery, not a standard battery. It is important to select this type of battery prior to testing the Phaeton Vehicle Power Supply Battery.

Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: J367 Battery Monitoring Controller Replacement (PanEuropean)*

Here is a copy of a technical bulletin that VW put out that explains the importance of making sure that the vehicle power supply battery (comfort battery) is not allowed to discharge when the Phaeton is in the dealership for service.

The first two pages of the bulletin discuss pre delivery inspection, and re-emphasize the importance of ensuring that the battery is in a 'fully charged' condition prior to new car delivery, regardless of what the voltage present on the battery may be.

The third page of the bulletin is what is of more interest to us as owners (and of great importance to Phaeton technicians) - this discusses the need to keep an appropriate battery charge maintainer hooked up to the Phaeton when it is in the shop and the ignition circuit is switched on. Note that there are two different procedures discussed on the third page. The first procedure explains use of the "Charge Express" tool, which is sufficient if the ignition will only be on for 30 minutes or less. The second procedure explains the use of the INC-940 tool, which should be used if more extensive work is planned - in other words, if the ignition will be left on for more than 30 minutes.

Lest anyone get the wrong idea, there is nothing wrong with Phaeton batteries, in fact, the car is built with two very high capacity batteries in it. The nuance of the problem is this: If the car is in the shop being serviced, and the ignition is on but the engine is not running, the car will demand tremendous amounts of current from the batteries when all the different diagnostic checks are carried out - for example, when controllers are scanned for fault codes with a diagnostic scan tool.  The same concern applies to owners who have a VAG-COM diagnostic scan tool - if you don't have one of the battery maintainers mentioned in the tech bulletin, then keep the engine running at all times when you are using the VAG-COM.

I hope I am not boring anyone by continually beating the drum about "maintaining battery charge capacity" - but, our experience here on the forum suggests that letting the charge capacity of the comfort battery decline seems to be the number one cause of problems that Phaeton owners encounter. It is so easy to avoid this problem if proper procedures are followed.

Michael


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## BLVWTECHSJ (Jun 22, 2005)

Wow this is alot more information than VW will reply with. Thanks, and keep me up to date with any other good information. Thanks!


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (BLVWTECHSJ)*

Hi Christopher:

Welcome to the Phaeton forum! I'm glad you find the information useful. All of us who own Phaetons are pretty happy with our cars, but we have discovered (same as you) that because the car is so new, there is not a large body of knowledge out there yet with respect to maintenance, troubleshooting, diagnostics, and repair.

We have a Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' that is a good place to go if you are trying to find specific information. The third and fourth posts down in the table of contents (Troubleshooting Problems, Phaeton Technical Reference Material) contain information that is intended to be helpful for Phaeton Technicians and Service Advisers.

If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to post them. We are a pretty enthusiastic and curious group of owners.

Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (BLVWTECHSJ)*

When I made the original post (above) about the battery controller replacement, I stated that I wouldn't really be able to come to a well-founded conclusion about the efficacy of this fix until the new controller had been in my Phaeton for a few weeks, and I then compared normal battery charge capacity pre and post controller replacement.

So, I waited a little over 3 weeks, to let everything normalize, and then drove up to my VW dealer to have them check the charge capacity of my Vehicle Power Supply Battery - the battery that supplies all the comfort systems on the Phaeton. This was a quick and simple test, it took about 5 minutes to do in the parking lot of the dealership, and the only disassembly required was removing the door from the electrical compartment in the trunk of the Phaeton. The tool used for this job - the Midtronics battery tester - is about the size of a portable calculator, and can easily be carried around. It is intended to be a portable tool.

I am very happy to report that the battery passed the test with flying colours - the tester reported that it was in good condition, fully charged, and no further attention was needed. This is the same battery that I have had since my Phaeton was new. I didn't use the car very much in the 25 days since the J367 battery management controller replacement - it was only driven about 200 miles in that time.

I think that this follow up test confirms the wisdom of the decision that the Phaeton technician at my dealership made - that being that the only intervention needed to fix all the low battery problems, spurious fault code problems, intervention load management problems, etc. was simply replacing the 'B' status controller with an updated controller at 'C' status. The controller itself is not cheap - I think it is about a $400 (retail) part - but, $400 for a part and one hour of labour charged to VW's warranty account is a heck of a lot less expensive than buying back the whole Phaeton, which unfortunately has been the process that some other owners have had to go through to get the same problem fixed.

I realize that one experience with one Phaeton is not sufficient to make a broad recommendation respecting the whole fleet, however, based on my own experience, I recommend that if other owners are encountering problems with maintaining a full charge on the comfort battery, the first step in the troubleshooting process should be considering replacing the battery management controller with a 'C' status controller if the existing controller is at 'A' or 'B' revision status.

I would appreciate hearing from anyone else who has had their battery management controller replaced - did this fix your problem? It seems to have done the job for Rodger and I.

Michael


*The follow-up testing process - this took about 5 minutes in the parking lot*









*The result of the follow-up test - compare this with the original reading*









*Before and after test results*


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## GripperDon (May 9, 2005)

Just got mine tested. it says, Rating 450 A(DIN)
13.54 volts 602A
Good Battery
Test Code 5WJAL2H-V21QNR3
This was done beacuse the system did not restore the Voltage to the Passenger (right Side window) after hibernation. And that one window would not operate. Only took about 1.5 hours of driving.


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## njwiseguy (Jan 7, 2005)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

I have been having some strange things happen with my car recently:
1. right side headlamp will not turn on. After cutting the ignition and restarting, everything is fine. happens about 3-4 times per week.
2. dashboard lights do not turn on initially. They turn on after about 1/2 mile. The red arm on the speedo is lit up but the background is not. Of course this happens at night - during the day, who knows.
3. volume of the audio system is still not working properly. Sometimes when I start the car up it is at zero even after I know it was turned up at last shutoff.
4. after the car was parked overnight recently, I got in the car and started driving and noticed that the trip data never reset to zero. I am talking about the info in the "since restart" menu. This is making me think the car never really shutdown that night. Perhaps this could be draining the battery and causing some other problems?
Does any of this sound similar to problems related to the battery controller?


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## dzier (Jun 19, 2004)

*Re: (njwiseguy)*

consistently - only item 3 - I am the only driver, and the volume is not consistent when I start the car. It has always been this way regardless of programming and reprogramming, andonly using one key.
I have had the headlight issue occur a few times (the automatic headlights) where they did not turn on, or turn on quickly, but that has not happened for about 6 months.
If some of the problams are consistently occurring, I know some have had battery issues, but when there is a battery issue, the problems are consistent over time. However, most of the situations that I am aware of, including my own, are so infrequent, that I think they are just electrical/software issues. I had these same type of issues with my Audi A6, and they could never be resolved, and they were not battery issues. Audi's are well known for there electrical issues, and it seems the Phaeton has some ofthe same characteristics. However,my Audi was much worse. 


_Modified by dzier at 2:40 PM 8-26-2005_


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## car_guy (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: (dzier)*

Re: item 3, I thought this was discussed in another thread and the conclusion was that it is caused by either of two things:
1. You have the maximum initial volume user setting too low, or,
2. You are either opening the trunk or unlocking a door other than the driver's side door before getting into the driver's seat. This was thought to be intentional because the car "thought" you might not want the audio system to turn on and it mutes the sound. Adjusting any audio volume control at that point brings the volume up to the previously level.

_Modified by car_guy at 1:00 PM 8-26-2005_


_Modified by car_guy at 1:29 PM 8-26-2005_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (car_guy)*

Correct - that audio problem was discussed in another thread recently. I think I need to go through the old posts and update the Forum Table of Contents. I'll look for the link later tonight.
Michael


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## PhaetonChix (Dec 16, 2004)

Michael,
As always, thank you for the fantastic job you do sharing critical information about the Phaeton with the forum. I swear, VW ought to keep you supplied with a Phaeton as long as they make the model. 
~PC


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PhaetonChix)*

Thanks, PC, that is very kind of you to say that. 
BTW, we now have 4 participants in our 'test project' to do more research about this controller, so I am now going to forward the 4 names to Dresden, and the folks from Dresden will contact you to take things further. I had planned on doing this in person in Dresden this coming week, but my work schedule was changed and I have to go to Western Canada next week. So, I will get things set up by phone.
I met with Daniel (Swiss Phaeton) tonight in Zurich - he has the exact same car as I do, but with a few more options, and his serial number is very close to mine. His car also has the B version controller, and a diagnostic scan of his car shows the same problems as my car was having. So, he is now going to talk to his dealer and see if they will change the controller to a C version. I think there is a tech bulletin out in Europe about this, but I am not sure.
Michael

 A postscript added much later: There *IS *a campaign out in Europe (more precisely, in the ROW, or 'Rest of World', which means everywhere except North America) to replace Battery Management Controllers that have an A or B suffix with a new controller that has a C suffix, which implies software 2700 or higher in the controller. It is Campaign *97J9*, see criteria 11 of that campaign.

For North American Phaetons, the same campaign was called 'Campaign OH', and it is described in the TB posted further down on this page (June 28 2006 post). This TB might also be looked up under TB number 2011889.

Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

For those of you who may be interested in purchasing a small, inexpensive battery maintainer to use while you are doing work on your Phaeton, there is a post here that describes one: NAPA Battery Maintainer for a Phaeton.
Michael


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## flanker27 (Oct 2, 2005)

Hi Michael.
I have very same problem (with small modification). Yesterday I spended 15 hours (!!!) in my friends workshop, and we found out that on red wire that is going into this controller is normall 12V and on exit there is only 7 to 8 V. It makes my Phaeton crazy. We will fight with it tomorrow, but I'm afraid, I will have to buy (sic) and replace this controller. I saw yesterday this is B version.
Tomasz


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: (flanker27)*

Tomasz,
What was the warranty on the 2003 Phaeton in PL? Depending on cost, it may be worth a phonecall to your local VW corporate representative or a plea to the service manager at your dealership.


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## flanker27 (Oct 2, 2005)

Hi again
This is second hand car, warranty eneded one month ago. I will call VW dealer in Poland and Germany on Monday and ask wheter they can replace this module as "factory defect" Otherwise I will have to buy this part :-(((


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: (flanker27)*

Przepraszam, Poltran nie byl zadnej pomocy ten czas.
I hope the outcome with VW is good. Please let us know the results!


_Modified by chrisj428 at 2:38 PM 10-15-2005_


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## phaeton Also (Feb 12, 2005)

It seems my battery went bad. It was replaced with 000-915-105-CE. The tech found faulty roof accessory modules and replaced them with updated modules. Part #s 3D0-947-106-AA-6C3 and 3D0-947-136-A-6C3. Everything is working well again. I am a happy camper.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (phaeton Also)*

*Archival Note -* Related post, including a technical bulletin: Intervention Load Management on the Phaeton


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

To celebrate the first anniversery of us here in the Phaeton forum discovering that the cause of Vehicle Power Supply Battery low voltage problems was the battery management controller hardware version A or B (software versions 2500 or 2600), Volkswagen of America has released a technical bulletin (TB) that permits replacement of the battery management controller - exactly as described earlier in this thread - if the customer reports spurious electrical problems.
I have attached the TB below. Note that if you have a version B (software 2600) battery management controller, and you are NOT having electrical problems, then you don't need to replace it.
The easiest way to determine the software version of the battery management controller is to open the controller using a diagnostic scan tool (VAG-COM or VAS 5052) and note the software version that appears beside the controller part number. This is much simpler than removing the battery to physically inspect the label on the controller, which is what the TB instructs the tech to do.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

How to identify the software version of the battery management controller installed in a Phaeton:


*Report produced by VAS 5052 Diagnostic Scan Tool*











*Report produced by VAG-COM Diagnostic Scan Tool*

Address 71: Battery Charger
Controller: 3D0 915 181 *B*
Component: Batteriemanagement *2600 *
Coding: 0000000
Shop #: WSC 00000
No fault code found.


Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Here is a picture that shows exactly where the battery management controller (sometimes called the 'battery monitoring controller') is located in the Phaeton.

You cannot see this controller without removing the Vehicle Power Supply Battery (left battery) first... and you cannot remove the left battery without first removing the big relay panel that sits directly above the left battery.

Michael


*Battery Management Controller Location*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Finally...

If you are going to have this TB (Battery Management Controller replacement) carried out on your Phaeton, it will be necessary for the technician to remove the big relay panel, in order to allow him or her to remove the battery, so as to get access to the controller.

It is not really 'difficult' to remove the big relay panel, but there is a trick to it, and unless you know the trick, something is probably going to get broken during the removal process. I have seen a heck of a lot of Phaetons that have damaged relay panel mounting brackets - this is probably because the VW technical literature does not explain how to release the relay panel from the mounting bracket. So... here's how to do it.

*1) What everything looks like before dis-assembly begins*









*2) What you want to accomplish - release of the relay panel from its mounting bracket*









*3) Here's the trick (seen instructions below this photo)*









*a)* You have to press (outwards, towards the outer body skin of the car) both of the small tabs (see arrows) at the same time, then push the bottom of the relay panel straight up.

*b)* The right hand (forward) tab is easy to see and easy to press. The left hand (aft) tab is kind of hidden... which means you need to use a VW Trim Removal Tool or a stubby slotted screwdriver to reach in at a 45 degree angle and press the tab, which is hidden from view.

*c)* Once you have pressed both tabs back about 1/4 of an inch, have an assistant gently press straight up on the bottom of the big relay panel. You need to get an assistant to do the pressing up of the relay panel, because you will have both hands occupied keeping the spring tabs pressed back (towards the left side of the car).

*d)* As soon as the relay panel moves up about half an inch, it can be pulled straight out (towards the middle of the trunk) without any difficulty.

*e)* Once you have the big relay panel removed, then you can remove the mounting bracket itself from the area above the battery. Don't try to remove the mounting bracket whilst the relay panel is still attached to it - otherwise, you will bust something 'for sure'. It is a two-step process - first you remove the relay panel from the bracket, then you remove the bracket from the car. It is easy to remove the bracket, that process will be self-evident once the relay panel has been released. 

*f)* If you are not sure how to remove the bracket, it's easy: Just release the bottom attach point, swivel the bottom part upwards, and the two top attach points will then come out with a gentle tug. 


Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Lastly - here is what to do with the relay panel to keep it out of your way once you have released it from the backing plate.

Michael


*Where to put the relay panel*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

*Archival Note:* Related query about how to release the fuse panel (relay panel) illustrated above - How do I release the rear fuse box?.


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## rscharf (Jan 19, 2004)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


_Quote, originally posted by *PanEuropean* »_
I would appreciate hearing from anyone else who has had their battery management controller replaced - did this fix your problem? It seems to have done the job for Rodger and I.
Michael


I had my controller replaced recently and everything appears to be fine now. I had to make one trip for them to ensure I needed a new controller and then scheduled a follow-up appointment a week later to give enough time for the new controller to arrive at the dealership. Using the NAPA Battery Maintainer to charge the battery overnight was necessary while waiting for the new controller. 
The only thing I was upset with the dealership with was getting my car back after it appeared someone manually closed my power trunk. When I arrived home I pulled the trunk release button from inside the car only for it to sound like the latch moved making a clunking sound. The trunk didn't go up. So, guessing the problem. I MANUALLY lifted the trunk (which WAS unlatched) all the way to the top slowly. When I hit the button to close it, it only came down halfway and popped the latch out. Hitting the trunk button (on the remote I think) a third and final time allowed the trunk to come down and latch as it is supposed to. Everything has been fine since. I'm not impressed that people at the dealership don't appear to know how to operate the electric Phaeton trunk.
Robert


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## calmone (Feb 15, 2006)

*battery controller query*

michael advises the replacement of the "B" controllers is mandatory, my question is how do you know if you have one. my vehicle (purchased used a year ago) was manufactured on 9/11/03. the model year code is "4". my dealer says i do not have the "B" controller because the "campaign/action information" for the vin reads "there are no open campaigns/actions for this vehicle". does trhis seem correct or may i still have a problem?


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: battery controller query (calmone)*

Having either you or someone you know run a VAGCOM scan on the controller will give you the answer.
It *shouldn't* be an issue if you're out of VIN range. However...


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: battery controller query (calmone)*

Hi William:

If your Phaeton was manufactured in September of '03 (same as mine), then it was equipped with a B suffix battery management controller at the factory. It is possible that the B suffix controller has since been replaced with a C or higher suffix controller at some time in the past when you took the vehicle in for service. There was a mandatory campaign (a RVU, or Required Vehicle Update) out about this exact subject - you can find further details here: Electrical Problems - Includes TB 27-06-02, RVU (Campaign OH).

If you read the reply I made to Todd on October 29, 2006 (click here), you will find a full summary of all the software update issues that need to be looked at on a 2004 Phaeton. Your VW dealer can easily determine the part number suffix of your battery controller using a diagnostic scan tool - no physical disassembly of the vehicle is necessary. The software version of the instrument cluster controller and J523 can also be determined using a diagnostic scan tool.

If it turns out that your Phaeton still has the B version controller, and if you have been taking the car to the same VW dealer for scheduled service over the past 18 months, then they have been "asleep at the switch" - in other words, they did not check for campaigns or RVUs during the original period of validity of Campaign OH. So, ask them to carry out the following work for you:

Campaign OH, replacement of the battery management controller with a version higher that part number suffix B.
TB 90-05-04, which solves the 'distortion in instrument cluster display screen' problem (flashes the instrument cluster software up to version x21). Click here for more information: TB: Distortion in the Display Unit in the Instrument Cluster (MFI, or Y24)
TB 37-07-08 (formerly 00-06-02, campaign BL) - click here for more information: TB 00-06-02 - W12 (only!) Underbody Cover Attachment Modification
Check to see if you have a broken oil dipstick. More information here: Broken Oil Dipstick - W12 Engine. The oil dipstick problem is specific to W12 engines, V8 engines are not affected.
You might want to review the following posts yourself, for further information so you have full awareness of everything:
Phaeton Technical Bulletin (TB) Summary
Rear Cabin and Interior Trunk Lights not working after service visit​
Be aware that after replacement of the battery management controller, two additional tasks need to be carried out:

All the controllers for 'moving objects' (seats, windows, trunk lid, sunroof, steering wheel) need to be re-adapted, because all power will have been disconnected from the car. See this post for more elaboration:How to adapt moving components (windows, seats, sunroof, trunk lid).
The left battery will need to be fully charged up by the dealer, then tested with the Midtronics battery tester.
Michael


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## calmone (Feb 15, 2006)

*Re: battery controller query (PanEuropean)*

michael, you wrote: "If it turns out that your Phaeton still has the B version controller, and if you have been taking the car to the same VW dealer for scheduled service over the past 18 months, then they have been "asleep at the switch" - in other words, they did not check for campaigns or RVUs during the original period of validity of Campaign OH. So, ask them to carry out the following work for you:
1) Campaign OH, replacement of the battery management controller with a version higher that part number suffix B."
it appears that i probably have a "B" controller, but apparently not all phaetons are included in campaign OH. both the dealer and customer service have declined to check the controller or replace it as this vin # is not in the campaign, albiet manufactured with a "B" cntroller.
they are NOT replacing all the old controllers, period.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: battery controller query (calmone)*

Most interesting, William, thanks for providing that information. It perplexes me a bit.
Michael


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## chrisj428 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: battery controller query (calmone)*


_Quote, originally posted by *calmone* »_it appears that i probably have a "B" controller, but apparently not all phaetons are included in campaign OH. both the dealer and customer service have declined to check the controller or replace it as this vin # is not in the campaign, albiet manufactured with a "B" cntroller.

Forgive me, for my resources ar elimited at the moment.
If you have a "B" controller and are experiencing issues and are under warranty, then it should be replaced unless they are able to come up with another explanation for the vehicle's behavior.
If you are out of VIN range and have a "B" controller, this would be a good time to call PCC and explain the situation to them. Many times they can make a phonecall to Product Compliance to have a campaign opened on a VIN which was not originally included or for which the campaign had been erroneously closed.


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## brosen (Jun 21, 2009)

*Re: J367 Battery Monitoring Controller Replacement (PanEuropean)*

Michael, it's possible to use the Jump Start terminals to connect the battery tester or analyzer ?, I am planning to buy the following Battery Analyzer, It will actually tell you how many month of battery life you have (remaining % of battery), thanks
http://www.argusanalyzers.com/index.php?id=76


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: J367 Battery Monitoring Controller Replacement (brosen)*

No. If you want to test or analyze the battery, disconnect the two cables that connect the battery to the car (disconnect the negative one first, and reconnect the negative one last), then connect your tool directly to the battery terminals.
Note that if you disconnect and reconnect the two batteries one at a time (in other words, you don't have both disconnected at once), the car won't "forget" everything and you won't need to re-adapt pinch protection, reset the steering angle sensor, etc.
Michael


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## brosen (Jun 21, 2009)

*Re: J367 Battery Monitoring Controller Replacement (PanEuropean)*

I have a basic question (sorry about that







), reading the specifications for both of my batteries:
*
Driver Side:
P/N: 000 915 105 CE 
SPEC: 12V 92 Ah AGM - 850A EN/SAE - 520A (DIN)
Passenger Side:
P/N: 1J0 915 105 AD
SPEC: 12V 92Ah AGM - 540A EN/SAE - 330A (DIN)
*
What is the meaning of all the numbers ?, also some of my specs does not match what is being reported in the forum, are my P/N's the correct ones ?, please somebody could provide a brief explanation or direct me to, where to understand all the numbers and what is their meaning.
The reason for my questions is that I just bought the Argus AA500P Battery Analyzer, and I do not know which value I should enter as the "Rating Value or Cold Cranking Amps (CCA)" the information in the batteries is the following
*
Battery 1: 
12V 92Ah - 850A EN/SAE - 520A (DIN)
*
Which value I should use to set the CCA parameter in the analyzer 850A or 520A ?, 850 if using SAE or 520 if using DIN ?
*
Battery 2:
12V 61Ah - 540A EN/SAE - 330A (DIN)
*
Which value I should use to set the CCA parameter in the analyzer 540A or 330A ?, 540 if using SAE or 330 if using DIN ?
Thanks


_Modified by brosen at 7:20 PM 8-22-2009_


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## brosen (Jun 21, 2009)

*Re: J367 Battery Monitoring Controller Replacement (PanEuropean)*

I understand the Left Battery is AGM type, the one on the right side (starter) is WET type ?, thanks


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## brosen (Jun 21, 2009)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Michael, it was not necessary to disconnect the battery from the terminals prior to connect the *Battery Tester/Analyzer* ?, from the photo it looks like the tester was just connected on top ?, thanks


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (brosen)*


_Quote, originally posted by *brosen* »_...from the photo it looks like the tester was just connected on top...

What photo?


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## brosen (Jun 21, 2009)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (brosen)*

When that photo was taken, the *OTHER *battery was disconnected, therefore, there was (for electrical purposes) only one battery in the car. Hence no possibility of getting an inaccurate reading due to the presence of the other battery.
Michael


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## brosen (Jun 21, 2009)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

OK, I get it, I will plan on testing the Right battery out of the car and the Left one connected, I thought it was required to properly test the battery to have it fully disconnected from the car, thanks Michael


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## brosen (Jun 21, 2009)

*Re: J367 Battery Monitoring Controller Replacement (PanEuropean)*

Maybe is possible to get *Remaining Battery Life* information from the "Measuring Blocks" for the Battery Charger (ECU #71) using VAG-COM or VAD ?, I checked it with VAD but there was no label, so it's hard to tell, I'll check it with VAG-COM later


_Modified by brosen at 1:28 PM 8-23-2009_


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: J367 Battery Monitoring Controller Replacement (brosen)*

No, that information cannot be determined with a diagnostic scan tool.


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## ilanna1 (Oct 7, 2009)

Michael, we have a2004 V8 Phaeton with the exact problems you described in 6/05. We also get "consumer electrics is shutting off," the a/c goes out regularly, key fob works intermittently, and alarm has recently been going off with various permutations of the doors locking or not. We replaced the Left battery, again, 2 weeks ago but not with a gel battery and it got worse. Sluggish starting then it basically died and key got stuck in ignition, would not start at all. However, dealer says the software is up to date. They say we must purchase another $350 battery (including labor) in order for them to do any diagnostics. Any ideas???


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (ilanna1)*

Hi Tricia:
Ask the dealer to give you a printout of the diagnostic scan of the vehicle. This will allow you to determine (independently) what the software versions of the various controllers are. Once you get that report, let us know here and we can all help you out from that point on.
Michael


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## ilanna1 (Oct 7, 2009)

I will ask for the printout. I asked them to tell me the specific software version (a, b, or c) last week and the manager had no idea what i was talking about. They say it's ready and, after replacing the Left battery, can find no problem. Should I return it after a little while and ask them to recheck the voltage and charge on the battery like you did back in 05 or 06?


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (ilanna1)*

Hello Again Tricia:
I think you should persist and ask them to tell you what the software version (in this particular case, the part number suffix) of the battery monitoring controller (controller 71) is in your car. 
It is not difficult at all to determine this, the software version and the complete part number (along with all sorts of other information) appears on the diagnostic scan report whenever the VW technician does a scan of the car. Normally, a complete diagnostic scan is done every time the vehicle is in for service.
Below is a photo of a printout created by a VW diagnostic scan tool that shows the software version (in this case, 2600) and the part number with suffix (in this case, 'B') for a battery management controller on a Phaeton.
There is a technical bulletin out that notes that controllers with suffix B (which corresponds to software 2600, because this particular controller cannot be flash-updated _in situ_) are unsatisfactory, and need to be replaced with a controller having a part number suffix ending in either C or D (there is no difference between the two replacements). Suffix A controllers were never installed on cars imported to North America.
Hope this information assists you.
Michael


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

The part number and suffix is clearly visible on the controller itself (see the pictures on the first page of this discussion), but it is not possible to look at the controller when the left battery is installed in the vehicle, because the controller is behind (outboard of) the left battery.
Michael


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## ilanna1 (Oct 7, 2009)

Hi Michael. First, we picked up the car Saturday and before I got home (30 minutes) the a/c had shut off again and the "consumer electrics is turning off" again. Happened all weekend. They commented that we should drive it more often and to make sure we lock the vehicle everytime we exit. Neither of those are issues: we always lock it and drive it daily. 2) I got the printout, it says "Battery regulation 3D0915181D" the dealer number, then 2800, then "0 fault detected." From what I can ascertain, that means software version D, which should be satisfactory, right? 3) The paperwork says, "dead accy battery. tested starter battery and terminal was loose. tried to charge aftermarket battery and will not take charge, faulty battery...replaced accy battery....system is all ok...used GFF to erase all faults...set readiness code...tested vehicle for battery drain for several hours over 2 days...all operates to design and intent..."

Before we took it to them, as I told you, we had put in a Left battery from another mechanic. So I understand the Left side battery needed to be replaced again, but i'm not clear on what the situation was with the starter battery. Perhaps the loose terminal was the only problem with it, but dealership doesnt say. 

Also, it's not sounding like they have any idea what's going on. We gave them the Technical Bulletin to refer to. Something is draining our Left side (i think) battery and/or the car is not charging it properly while it's being driven, right? Is there any other explanation????
Your patience and help is appreciated,
Tricia


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## remrem (Jan 20, 2008)

*Re: (ilanna1)*

Michael,
I noticed earlier in this thread (10/07) that Ilanna mentioned:
_"We replaced the Left battery, again, 2 weeks ago but not with a gel battery and it got worse..."_
I know that the OEM battery is an absorbed glass mat type, and when I read this I was wondering is it possible that they may have just installed the incorrect type of battery on the left side?
Regards,
Ron


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## ilanna1 (Oct 7, 2009)

*Re: (remrem)*

when i say "gel" that's the terminology they use at the dealership, but yes, it means absorbed glass mat (AGM). However, the issue was already present, which is why we had to replace that battery in the first place. Here's the sequence: We bought the car in Feb 08, by Sept 08 the faults were so often we had to take it in to the dealer. They replaced the Left battery. Before we got home, the faults returned but we didn't take it back until Dec 08, when they replaced the battery Left again. The faults returned before we got home. Recently, in addition to the faults, we got all the other stuff I wrote in my first post, (sluggish starting, key fob issues, etc.) THAT's when we replaced the Left battery with the wrong one (not AGM). All was well for about 3 days, then all probs returned except it wouldn't start and key got stuck. Now we're at the dealership who replaced Left battery again with AGM and tightened up a loose STARTER battery terminal. However, before we got home, faults returned.


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## ilanna1 (Oct 7, 2009)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Hi Michael again. I've noticed there haven't been any more replies about my quandry.







In case anyone's interested, as a follow up regarding my Phaeton with the multiple electrical faults and apparent electrical issues: they changed the battery, which did not work. They changed a relay, which did not work. They changed the controller panel, which did not work. Today they are changing the alternator. Anyone with any ideas???


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

*Re: (ilanna1)*

Tricia:
Boy have they been throwing parts at your problem. I hope some of this has been covered under warranty. An alternator failure is pretty easy to diagnose so I don't understand a replacement at this point in their quest. If it was the source of the problem, why was it not the first part replaced? Oh well, if they keep replacing parts I guess they'll eventually solve the problem. 
It seems like you are having low voltage problems but the classic cures such as battery replacement, charge controller, that Michael has chronicled, and such have not done it. What about a faulty ground somewhere? A bad ground would give all kinds of electrical problems, even when all other componens in the electrical system are OK. A look at th electrical wiring diagrams would give a tech info to determine the most likely locations for a bad ground. 
Good luck.


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## ilanna1 (Oct 7, 2009)

Hello. The battery was under warranty, labor not. They say everything so far is also under the "certified pre-owned warranty", but we'll see. Also highly troubling: rental car NOT covered. So we're missing the very things the designer of this car made it for and why we bought it - unparalleled leg (baby seat) room and traveling comfort. We're squeezing our baby seat into our little sports car for the hours long trips we have to make. Very annoying. 
I agree about the alternator, hard to imagine it got missed during all those battery replacements. They said they followed the wiring diagram from front to back looking for any wires moved or disconnected or otherwise aberrant, and found nothing. I assume that would cover finding a faulty ground but I guess not necessarily??? Thanks for the input and keep 'em coming!!!


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## Zaphh (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: (ilanna1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *ilanna1* »_Hello. The battery was under warranty, labor not.

Ouch... You should ask them how long it will take them to change the alternator, as I seem to remember that on some engines (W12 ? V8 ?) it may be necessary to remove the engine to get access to the alternator...
P.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Zaphh)*

It is only necessary to remove the W12 engine to change the alternator.
Michael


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## ilanna1 (Oct 7, 2009)

Well so far they think the alternator has "solved the charge problem." But I have to write about the comedy of errors now. I'm not complaining, just laughing at this point. Hopefully it stays that way: apparently a shaft that covers the wires attached to the trunk, near the rear windshield, dislodged during their repair work from repeatedly opening and closing the trunk. The shaft somehow slid down and cracked the rear windshield, which is now having to be replaced, in addition to the harness and the shaft for the wires.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (ilanna1)*

Ah yes, the "trunk wiring harness breaks rear window" snag - for more information, see this post: Broken Sleeve on Electrical Harness leading to Trunk Lid - How to fix?.
Although I am loathe to ever criticize individual dealership service departments, I am beginning to think that perhaps the staff at your VW dealership are not especially familiar with Phaetons.
When you pick up your car - after the rear window and the trunk wiring harness have been replaced - be certain to function-check the following items before you even leave the dealership parking lot. All of these items can be, uh, 'screwed up' in the process of replacing either the back window or the trunk wiring harness:
Pertaining to the rear window replacement
*1)* Radio reception - both FM and AM.
*2)* Navigation System - make sure it picks up the satellites and determines the correct location of your car.
*3)* Rear window electric heat - put the car in the shade (out of the sun), start the engine, turn on the rear window defrost, then check the glass either with your hand or (far better) with an optical thermometer that the dealership can provide, to ensure the window heat is working correctly.
Pertaining to the trunk wiring harness replacement
*1)* Remote unlocking of trunk (from driver door switch) works
*2)* Remote unlocking of trunk (using key fob) works
*3)* If you have a power-lifting trunk lid, unlocking of trunk by pressing VW logo works.
*4)* If you have a power-lifting trunk lid, closing trunk lid by pressing button on lower edge of trunk lid works.
*5)* Start engine, turn on lights, check that all four red 'running' lights at the rear of the car work.
*6)* Place transmission in reverse, confirm both backup lights work.
*7)* Press on brake pedal, confirm that brake lights work (symmetrically).
*8)* Check that turn signals both sides work.
*9) *Ensure that there are no symbols in the display screen between the speedometer and tachometer indicating that bulbs are not operating.
Good luck with it all...
I do strongly recommend that you print out the contents of the discussion at this link: Broken Sleeve on Electrical Harness leading to Trunk Lid - How to fix? and give the document to your service manager *before *the dealership starts work on the trunk lid wiring harness replacement. Otherwise, given the batting average of your service department, they will probably install either the wrong wiring harness (there are two different part numbers), or, they will cross-wire the two identically coded wires in the harness, which will cause asymmetrical operation of the rear running lights.

Michael


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## Jxander (Aug 5, 2008)

*Re: (PanEuropean)*

Michael:
You have done an excellent job of warning all of us on the forum regarding the trunk wiring apparatus failing and potentially breaking the rear window. Hopefully it will not happen on any of our watches. However, I think the time is right for you to issue a technical bulletin to VW mechanics so they will be aware of this hazard.







Just kidding of course.
Another excellent example of the value of this forum to us. Thanks again to Michael and Chris for making this forum so great.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

*Re: (Jxander)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Jxander* »_I think the time is right for you to issue a technical bulletin to VW mechanics so they will be aware of this hazard.

That's actually a good idea. VW has a little weekly newsletter called "Tech Tips" that they distribute to all the technicians via the VW Intranet. I'll contact the authors and suggest that they include a tip about the Phaeton rear window and the trunk wiring harness.
All of us 'long-timers' in the Phaeton forum enjoy an excellent and mutually respectful working relationship with VW - both VW Dresden and VW of America - so, it's a good thing when we can occasionally return favours to them. VW certainly helps all of us in the forum out (behind the scenes, of course) quite a bit.
Michael


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## ilanna1 (Oct 7, 2009)

Yes, this forum is great. It's nice that you all seem reputable and reasonable so that when I do pass tips on VW mechanics, I don't feel quite as much like a ding-dong who just found any old blog on the internet that I'm using to harass them with. It's great that the forum directs us to the technical bulletins, has diagrams, etc.


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## zenmoused (Nov 6, 2008)

*Any updates?*

Just came across this thread since I'm having similar problems, and I'm wondering if there is any update as to whether replacing the alternator was the solution?

For mine, the fresh air fan intermittently does not turn off with the ignition, which causes low voltage of the convenience battery after a few minutes. This leads to the alarm system going off if I lock the car, the inability to unlock the car with key fob, losing most settings such as clock and seats, and a "please start engine" notice every time I start the car, requiring a left-pause-right key turn to start. My Phaeton is out of warranty so I tried a few things before bringing it in. Tried pulling two fuses as documented in another thread, no luck. Pulled the battery and brought it to AutoZone to test/recharge. Tested fine, now charged 100% (it was completely drained), but after reinstallation I still get all of the same symptoms, as if there isn't enough voltage. My battery gauge reads 14v as usual.

I'm going to check the controller later today to see if it's the "B" version. Otherwise, I'm hoping it's not a fan controller issue, I hear those are deep in the heart of the car- lots of labor to replace. Any thoughts anyone?

*EDIT*
Just checked, and I indeed have the "B" controller. Any idea of whether or not this could possibly be the problem? Also, if this is a known problem that prompted a part revision and a TB, would VW replace this for free even though I'm past warranty?

Brian


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

zenmoused said:


> ...the fresh air fan intermittently does not turn off with the ignition...


Brian:

In the above statement, do you mean the radiator fans at the front of the car? It is very normal for them to run occasionally after the engine is turned off. This is common behavior on all modern cars, not just VW products.



zenmoused said:


> ...which causes low voltage of the convenience battery after a few minutes. This leads to the alarm system going off if I lock the car, the inability to unlock the car with key fob, losing most settings such as clock and seats, and a "please start engine" notice every time I start the car, requiring a left-pause-right key turn to start.


Uh, how old is the left battery? It might simply be that the battery is at the end of its life. The manufacture date of the battery is stamped onto one of the battery posts (month/year). If it is older than 5 years, you are living on borrowed time. If it is older than 6 years, you should replace it with an identical VW battery (about $200).



zenmoused said:


> Just checked, and I indeed have the "B" controller. Any idea of whether or not this could possibly be the problem? Also, if this is a known problem that prompted a part revision and a TB, would VW replace this for free even though I'm past warranty?


You might be able to coax a 'goodwill' offer out of VW, especially if you normally have your car serviced at a VW dealership. I suggest that if you have an old left battery (>5 years old), you get that battery replaced at the same time - the labour for removing and replacing the battery will be covered by the battery controller replacement campaign.

Be sure to also read this post, and pass this information along to the technician who does the work on your car (especially the information about not breaking the relay box mounting bracket): J367 Battery Monitoring Controller Replacement (Includes RVU TB 27-06-02)

Michael


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## zenmoused (Nov 6, 2008)

Thank you Michael, you always are a great help. I looked up the part on 1stvwparts and it's only $72, so I think I'll try that first. Like I said, the battery tested fine for Autozone, and while I agree that 7 years is a little long in the tooth, I don't want to replace it for the sake of replacing it. Either way I need the new controller and it's easy enough to swap out- I'll let you know how it goes!

Brian


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## zenmoused (Nov 6, 2008)

Well, finally replaced the battery control unit and the battery for good measure. Of course with a new, fully charged battery the car functions normally, however as soon as I turned her off I could hear the interior fans turning on and off (not the engine fan).

I guess it's time to bite the bullet and bring her in. Anyone else have this issue or have any other ideas for me to suggest to the dealership?


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## laser21 (Jan 25, 2012)

Michael, could you please reupload the photos of the first post? I know its a long time since you created this thread, but maybe you still have them.

Thanks, Lukas


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## jyoung8607 (Feb 14, 2006)

laser21 said:


> Michael, could you please reupload the photos of the first post? I know its a long time since you created this thread, but maybe you still have them.
> 
> Thanks, Lukas


Lukas,

I think Michael is working on doing that, but I think work keeps him pretty busy these days.

In the meantime, you can see the J367 controller pretty clearly in the battery replacement thread. The clearest picture is the second-to-last, labeled 3D0 915 181 D.

If you're wanting to know what version you have, you already have the latest revision D. All MY2006 cars should have the updated version, also, you can see it in the VCDS auto-scan you posted, address 71.

Jason


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

Photos re-hosted. 

Michael


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## DmcL (Sep 30, 2012)

just swapped the B suffix controller for a C suffix controller the other day. i have not noticed any major change in the volt meter in the instrument cluster but it does seem to jump back and forth from nearer 12v to nearer 13.5-14v a bit more than before, im guessing this is the controller switching back and forth between the two batteries more often than the old controller.

going to keep an eye on it and see if the lower readings work their way up over time as before the controller swap i was seeing about 12v flat on the meter in the cluster when turning the ignition to accessory position.

i popped the lid off the C suffix controller before fitting and took a picture. i will do the same for the B suffix controller i removed from the car for fun and giggles.. see if theres any physical differences that can be seen between the two or if it looks like the only difference is the software version.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

I have been told by VW engineering in Dresden that there is a physical difference, which is why the controller could not be flash-updated. It is possible that the physical difference is very small, for example, substitution of one part for another that is visually the same.

Michael


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## DmcL (Sep 30, 2012)

maybe simply a larger chip on the circuit board to allow for a larger file and as such, greater control of the charging system? i didnt pull the board out of the C suffix controller to check whats on the back side of it but i might pull the one out of the B suffix controller. 

i know on the older BMW ECU's i mess with there are differences in chip sizes/memmory. early ones were either 26 or 28 pin eprom and small capacity (dont know exact as i havent messed with the first gen stuff) then the later 80's o early 90's system used a 28 pin 256k chip. then in the next generation of 3 series they used 28 pin 512k chips. possibly something similar between the A, B and C suffix controllers.. 

if it was simply a case of chips being the same physical size/number of pins then it may be possible to swap in a suitable chip with C suffix software written on it.. depending on the type of chip i do have an eprom reader/burner for the chips i do for older BMW's. might be possible to upgrade older controllers to C suffix spec instead of replacing it. maybe even a cheaper alternative to a replacement C suffix controller should yours be damaged or faulty and not covered under any warranty, etc.


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## jollmo (Jan 26, 2013)

Hi, I just received my new version C Controller, to replace the type A one sitting in the back of my car.
If anyone is interested, I made a picture of its board with all components plainly visible...
Also, after replacing it with the new type C, I plan to open the old type A box to take some additional photos.
As the picture is pretty big (2.6MB) I don't know how to post it here, but could send it via mail...

Thank you for this great forum!!!
You helped already a lot!

Jan


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## W12Canada (Nov 4, 2012)

*J367 Battery Monitoring Controller Replacement (Includes RVU TB 27-06-02) [TO...*

I've just replaced mine following the instructions from this thread. I got my hands on a used controller off of an '09 Bentley Continental GT.










Old Vs. New.
Left was manufactured on March 23, 2006. Right was manufactured on July 07, 2008.
Both are version D.


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## PanEuropean (Nov 3, 2001)

jollmo said:


> ...As the picture is pretty big (2.6MB) I don't know how to post it here, but could send it via mail...


Hi Jan:

Email the picture to me and I will post it for you. To reveal my email address, click on my user name (PanEuropean) in the column to the left of this message.

Michael


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## Juhani (Sep 15, 2012)

*J357*

Replaced my type "B" 2600 controller with type "D" 2800 together with new Exide Start/Stop 95Ah AGM. Charging voltage with older one was measuring from battery posts 13.9V +/-0,1V, start battery got 14,6V same time, so controller was running transistor chopper/coil and upping voltage a bit. 13,9V is ok for AGM when its full and "floating" but it needs 14,4-14,6 to get full. Type D seems to work same way, but but so far I only have measured with full batterys and garage temperature +16. Anyway old conroller ruined previous AGM in 2 years, reason I think is that its not fully charged ever. Looking wiring diagram I dont see how controller could adjust altenator output voltage? Controller inside Alt also dont have "sense" wire like US alts have where if you place diode alt makes about 0,5V more. In V10 Alternator is gear driven, water cooled in V-valley, maybe there is controller for it which makes 14,6V available from manufacturer Valeo or some aftermarked.
I also opened B and D and there was no visible difference inside, all same components, thou processor could be different, more memory or something.
I dont know how to put pics. here.
Juhani


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## Gabs08PHTN (Jan 6, 2011)

Juhani said:


> Looking wiring diagram I dont see how controller could adjust altenator output voltage?


Hi Juhani,
There are two thin brown wires, one per battery, connected to the earth cables, that are used by the battery management controller in order to sense the condition of the batteries. 
If they are damaged or loose the controller won't charge them properly. Worth checking, I would say.

Gabriel


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## Juhani (Sep 15, 2012)

Yes, they are there, connected and cleaned, ohmed showing zero ohms.
Juhani


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## Juhani (Sep 15, 2012)

*J367*

After more measurements and checking threads here and elsewhere, I think its clear that J367 does nothing to charge state of left battery, it does influence state of starting battery, that was OK also with "B" controller. Wire runs directly from alternator to battery you can measure voltage also from connectionpoint under hood beside emergency start point, which is directly connected to starting bat. Have not measured "DF" from controller 1 yet, but engine running under hood voltage is alweys 14V +/- 0,05v and from left battery 0,1 to 0,2v less depending what of the loads are on. So 190A 14V Hitachi alternator is doing its job exactly as its designed to. Catch22 is that 13.9v is ok for +25-30c ambient, but for 0 to -30 you wuold need 14,4 to 15v to get battery full. There is only two connections to alt beside +B L and DF which gives out load factor in form of state of magnetizing current needed to reach 14v output, load control then reduces loads if DF is 100%. L is old fashioned lamp terminal, its - ground when alt is not working, and otherside of lamp is connected to ignition +, if this connection is lost alt wont start producing electricity, OR is it this way still? Dashboard voltage meter reads exactly same as measurement from battery posts, but its not voltage meter but controlled digitally. Does anyone know is voltage regulator in alternator selfexiting, not needing L signal, or could L be used as sense terminal
as in all US alts, they have "S" terminal, trough with you can manipulate output voltage. Ecm could easilly control charge lamp with DF also.
I wonder why in car this much dependent of healthy battery, there is no temperature compensation either in alternator, thats also is standart feature of US alts,
they make 0,5 to 1v higher voltage cold. Or is only way that I need to take alt out and modify it, its no rocket science when its on table to fool regulator make more voltage, it now takes reference from its own output Iam sure. Feel stupid to having need to charge battery from mains weekly to keep it more happy.
Batterys are idiots they only take currenrt according available voltage, and because they are in booth they wont get warm really in winter as they would near engine, VW has taken good care of starting bat, its full all time, getting 14,7v no matter what alt voltage is. 
Every intelligent charger in boats ex. can charge batteries first fast with, 14,7 then when current gets lower go to 14 and finally float at 13,3v for weeks if needed
no science and could be easilly controlled in car with temp sensor in battery alone if measuring current looking capacity factor or such feels expensive.


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## ramtor (Jan 1, 2006)

PanEuropean said:


> Finally...
> If you are going to have this TB (Battery Management Controller replacement) carried out on your Phaeton, it will be necessary for the technician to remove the big relay panel, in order to allow him or her to remove the battery, so as to get access to the controller.
> It is not really 'difficult' to remove the big relay panel, but there is a trick to it, and unless you know the trick, something is probably going to get broken during the removal process. I have seen a heck of a lot of Phaetons that have damaged relay panel mounting brackets - this is probably because the VW technical literature does not explain how to release the relay panel from the mounting bracket. So... here's how to do it.
> *1) What everything looks like before dis-assembly begins*
> ...


please add this to battery replacement section, took me awhile to find it


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## n968412L (Apr 23, 2009)

ramtor said:


> please add this to battery replacement section, took me awhile to find it


Have a look at #35 in this thread too: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5601569-Battery-replacement-procedure/page2 And... you don't need and assistant... but only if you know what to expect etc.

M


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## Juhani (Sep 15, 2012)

*J367*

Yeah, have had no problems with relaybox or bracket whatsoever, nor with battery out/in. Concern is how to get more voltage from alternator, Willems trick to put rear Hvac off raises voltage about 0,15V when PTCs dont go on. BUT is there a way to fool alt. regulator to make 0,5V more without taking it out and modifing it.


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## CallumCarr (Oct 15, 2018)

Hi, sorry to resurrect an old thread - I'm pretty sure that the above is the cause of multiple electrical issues I have with my Phaeton - battery health on both sides is good when tested, the alternator has recently been replaced and symptoms seem to be consistent with what others have experienced.

My car is a 2003 and has previously had it's J367 replaced under warranty way back in its history to a revision C controller. I'm hesitant to buy another C revision controller. 

The question I have is whether the E and F revisions of this controller are compatible with a GP0 Phaeton? I'm aware there are CAN-BUS changes to Phaetons built after GP1 facelift/ 2007. I have found a 2013 F revision controller for sale on eBay for £45 which looks appealing but I'd rather not buy it before knowing if it'll work


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

CallumCarr said:


> Hi, sorry to resurrect an old thread - I'm pretty sure that the above is the cause of multiple electrical issues I have with my Phaeton - battery health on both sides is good when tested, the alternator has recently been replaced and symptoms seem to be consistent with what others have experienced.
> 
> My car is a 2003 and has previously had it's J367 replaced under warranty way back in its history to a revision C controller. I'm hesitant to buy another C revision controller.
> 
> The question I have is whether the E and F revisions of this controller are compatible with a GP0 Phaeton? I'm aware there are CAN-BUS changes to Phaetons built after GP1 facelift/ 2007. I have found a 2013 F revision controller for sale on eBay for £45 which looks appealing but I'd rather not buy it before knowing if it'll work


Both of my Phaetons have revision D controllers. 

I also have a few F revisions I bought on eBay but haven't been brave enough to try one. 8486 would have been the logical Guinea Pig but its electrical problems went away for the time being after replacing the Comfort Battery (for the second time since 2015).

I would have to see the wiring differences for the GP0 and GP1 to see if there is a difference but I did look the part number up.

The U.S.A. official VW parts website lists the F as fitting a GP0:

https://parts.vw.com/p/Volkswagen__/Battery-Control-Module/51598978/3D0915181F.html

I still haven't had the guts to try one. 

-Eric


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## CallumCarr (Oct 15, 2018)

53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN said:


> Both of my Phaetons have revision D controllers.
> 
> I also have a few F revisions I bought on eBay but haven't been brave enough to try one. 8486 would have been the logical Guinea Pig but its electrical problems went away for the time being after replacing the Comfort Battery (for the second time since 2015).
> 
> ...


Thanks Eric, I've decided to give it a go - hopefully it'll arrive before the weekend and i'll report back with how it goes.

I have a feeling it should work - my theory is that E & F should be compatible as on ETKA they are listed as a supersession of D which we know works with GP0 cars but also was sold on GP2 cars which are more or less the same as GP3 & GP4.

Keeping my fingers crossed! 

- Callum


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## 53PL-50AAA-VW611BAN (Feb 10, 2015)

CallumCarr said:


> Thanks Eric, I've decided to give it a go - hopefully it'll arrive before the weekend and i'll report back with how it goes.
> 
> I have a feeling it should work - my theory is that E & F should be compatible as on ETKA they are listed as a supersession of D which we know works with GP0 cars but also was sold on GP2 cars which are more or less the same as GP3 & GP4.
> 
> ...


Good luck, Callum.

-Eric


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