# biturbo urquattro - any problems?



## WAUOla (Apr 15, 2005)

*Special quattro derivates (former biturbo thread)*

hi guys!
I've seen some pictures of originally Sport quattro rallycars faeturing
two turbochargers on the standard engine.
How will this be on an regular 20 valve regarding pulses etc? Are there
any big problems? Two charges will make up for lost driveability that
you loose in one BIG turbo for big effects?
Thinking why did the german Audi Sport folks stop using two charges
and just use one big one on the Pikes Peak etc...there must be a
reason.

_Modified by WAUOla at 9:05 AM 8-27-2005_


_Modified by WAUOla at 8:52 AM 12-13-2005_


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## snoogins (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: biturbo urquattro - any problems? (WAUOla)*

To my knowledge, there always was only one turbo on the I5 turbo motors. I've never seen one with twin turbos. This includes the motors on the Group B, Pike's Peak, Tran-Am, and IMSA cars. Even the motor that was in the 200 that set the record at Talladega was a single turbo, albeit a 25v head, motor.


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## WAUOla (Apr 15, 2005)

quite aware of the Audi Sport FIA car line, but
I've seen a picture of the 20V featuring
biturbos.
As mentioned before, there is probably a
solution to WHY they didn't go down that route
with the old and slow turbochargers to
perform with earlier spool.


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## yumyjagermiester (Sep 20, 2002)

*Re: (WAUOla)*

I've seen a similar picture, but it was NOT a factory rallye car, or anything of the like, just someones project.
Audi sport did implement an anti-lag system which made it seem like the car had two wastegates, which looked like it had two turbos. Is this what you're referring to?


_Modified by yumyjagermiester at 7:52 AM 8/30/2005_


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## 84veedub (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (yumyjagermiester)*

There was the bi-wastegate design, for anti-lag on the rally cars, i've never seen a factory twin or bi-turbo I5.
paging James (fusilier)....


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## WAUOla (Apr 15, 2005)

I can't verify that it was an works quattro car,
but it was NOT the antilag system, which looks
like one standard WG and one bigger one that
actually is the antilag system


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## Fusilier (Apr 17, 2004)

*Re: (WAUOla)*

There is a bi-turbo setup on an I5 around on the net, but its not audisport. 
Its a private car. Its using two K26 turbos if I remember right.


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## URQ (Mar 19, 2004)

*Re: (Fusilier)*

2.5 cil per k26?


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## 84veedub (Oct 4, 2002)

*Re: (URQ)*

IIRC, cylinders 3,4,& 5 drove a K26, and cylinders 1 & 2 drove a K24.
There was a photo album of that setup on motorgeek.com a week or
so ago.


_Modified by 84veedub at 10:09 AM 9-2-2005_


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## Fusilier (Apr 17, 2004)

*Re: (URQ)*

They did something funny with the runners. I think it was 2 and 3 with the firing order determining what went where, and then they merged the turbo outputs into one. It was weird. Basically half the motor ran each turbo. But of course that is only about 1.1 liter per K26 which is likely to be laggy as all getout.
I think a two turbo setup using a large wastegate and an electronic boost controller would be very interesting. A 2nd wastegate would be the dump and triggered by a 2nd electronic boost controller.
In function the wastegates are shut and all gas goes to the 1st turbo. Once a preset boost pressure is reached, the 1st wastegate is opened to vent gas into a 2nd exhaust plenum which drives the 2nd turbo. The 1st turbo is still going so you've effectively opened up the manifold to reduce exhaust pressures which naturally will spool up the 2nd turbo. This keeps everything efficient. Its possible two wastegates should be used for the bypass, just as two conventional BPVs will be needed to keep the intake sealed when using one turbo. This would allow someone with a 5 cylinder to use a pair of small turbos with excellent boost response down low and considerable flow up high.


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## snoogins (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: (Fusilier)*

Mr Bufkin, you're knowledge continues to astound me.


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## WAUOla (Apr 15, 2005)

Well, I know an urquattro having dual prepped K24s, but not sure if it is the best idea.
Simplet splitt and merge piping.
I'll try to get hold of the picture that I'm thinking of...


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## WAUOla (Apr 15, 2005)

*Re: (WAUOla)*

Well, just found it








Two turbochargers, one common wastegate where the piping meets
and no antilag system as far as I can see.










_Modified by WAUOla at 1:35 AM 9-3-2005_


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## URQ (Mar 19, 2004)

*Re: (WAUOla)*

What front support is that, it is not from a Urq or 4000! Sport Quattro or a 5000?


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## PerL (Jan 9, 2001)

*Re: (URQ)*

Shock towers, which do look very stock (stock as in a street car, not a rally car), gives it away as a Type 81/85, but exactly which is hard to say. The front support is not the one from your everyday beater.


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## WAUOla (Apr 15, 2005)

from the grille and mayby intercooler, it looks like an
urquattro rallyfrontgrille. ANYWAYS, that is not what
this thread is for


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## PerL (Jan 9, 2001)

*Re: (WAUOla)*


_Quote, originally posted by *WAUOla* »_. ANYWAYS, that is not what
this thread is for









I would say that it _is_ important, because determing what car this is might help lead to the final answer.


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## WAUOla (Apr 15, 2005)

well the big idea was to enlighten any problems
regarding trouble featuring two turbochargers on
a 20 valved engine.


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## Fusilier (Apr 17, 2004)

*Re: (WAUOla)*

Thats the picture I've seen before as well.
I don't think that is audisport motor. Its a 20V so it'd be after 1984. The cam cover looks like an AAN but is distributor or has coils somewhere else. So that is a modification which doesn't match the old timey B&W image. The intake isn't dual plenum. Every 20V I've seen is dual plenum. The intake hosing does appear to be standard Diesel orange silicon. There is no timing belt cover. That is something Audi would not do.
There front clip is symmetric which means its not urquattro. Urquattro front clip is not symmetric. The SQ is similar to that and 5000s are like that. Both sides have had the unibody removed behind the headlights for access that is like Audisport. S1 and 20V rally cars in general pretty much dropped that stock strut mounting points and moved it back to the firewall. The hope being capped with a rubber Audi part. So the suspension doesn't match the motor. The electronics and relays all over the right side of the engine would not be Audisport at all. 
Now, the car could certainly be a test mule in a Sport Quattro. Because a street SQ has a clip like that. Suspension like that, Shock tower brack like that. Cut away fronts like that, but why use a funky cam cover like that? Its doing nothing that a KW cam cover couldn't do. The Sheer height of it makes the brack need those towers on the right side, which wouldn't be needed if the low SQ cam cover was used. And.. why wouldn't they use an S1E2 intake manifold if they are going to move the radiator to the rear? Hydralic pump is not in the rally car position. 
Its a great picture. But a funny one because the origins aren't known.
I'm still going to say it could be a test mule car setup, but its likely a privateer job. Those turbos in the picture appear to be small K27s. See the large K27 oil flange on the left one and no 90deg opposed water line like a K26.
James


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## WAUOla (Apr 15, 2005)

OK! Discovered one more of these pics on my
harddrive tonight! PerL and me having some
trouble IDing anything on it. But written on
picture (seems like a scan) is this:
5326 970 6415


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## PerL (Jan 9, 2001)

*Re: (WAUOla)*

I found that the number on the scan is a 3K number that matches VAG numer 035 145 703F, which according to Scott J. Mockry is the K26 from a 200T, type 44.
http://www.sjmautotechnik.com/...s.htm
Here is the picture


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## WAUOla (Apr 15, 2005)

May this then be some sort of Talladega clone (or actual car, even though I think it was singelturbo 25V)??


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## PerL (Jan 9, 2001)

*Re: (WAUOla)*

No, because the engine you posted the pic of is most likely installed in an Urquattro, while the Talladega was a 200. The difference is easily seen on the top of the shock absorbers, the Type 44 cars had the shocks installed with 3 bolts (same as your C4) while the Type 81/85 cars had them installed with the single center nut only.


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## WAUOla (Apr 15, 2005)

*Re: (WAUOla)*

Could this be as simply solved as saying it's an urquattro rallycar?
As the frontsupport MIGHT be made as for fitting the special grille
that includes the small intercooler (look at the piping in front of
the inlet, så an group 4, A1 or A2 this would be then. If not the
Sport quattro featured the same solution on placement of intercooler
- this I do not know. But, seing the angled solution by the headlight
(seen just as a black area) I would guess it is a LWB car and not the
Sq in any ways. Although I've NEVER heard of any Audi Sport LWB
cars for 20V testing purposes.








James B (Fusilier) has this grille on his car, can't remember wether
that is genuine Audi Sport item or replica.


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## PerL (Jan 9, 2001)

*Re: (WAUOla)*

I just looked at the picture of the engine bay again, and increased the size a bit. The front support looks identical to the one of the Sport quattro, so I believe that this mysterious engine may be installed in a Sport. The mounting points for the strut brace suggest the same thing.
One thing that is totally unique about this engine, except for the two turbos is the cam cover. It is not the same cover as the Sport quattro engine, not the same as the IMSA nor is it the same as the more common 3B/AAN/ABY/ADU 20VT engine. 
This engine does in fact have the same cam cover as the 25 valve Talladega car, so I believe that what we are looking at is actually a 25 valve twin turbo engine installed in a Sport quattro...
This picture also shows that the engine bay is NOT the same as the one above. Notice the tops of the shock absorbers and you'll see the differences between the Type 44 and Type 81/85 cars.


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## WAUOla (Apr 15, 2005)

*Re: (PerL)*

This makes sence as there were 6 Sport quattro prototypes that
featured the four 25 valved inline 5 testengines for the Talladega
car. So I suppose this is just a test variety to see if biturbo was an
opt to go for.
CASE SOLVED! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## URQ (Mar 19, 2004)

*Re: (WAUOla)*

But the spot quattro did not have long wide head lights on it?


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## PerL (Jan 9, 2001)

*Re: (URQ)*

You cant really see the headlights in that blurry black/white picture. It can of course be a LWB car disguised as a normal road car. Or are you thinking about the black car in the botom pic? That is a 200, not a Sport, but the engine looks to be basically the same.


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## URQ (Mar 19, 2004)

*Re: (PerL)*

Yes I was talking about the last photo.


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## PerL (Jan 9, 2001)

*Re: (URQ)*

Yeah, that is the Audi 200 Talladega.








You can read more about it on Audistory.com


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## WAUOla (Apr 15, 2005)

*Continuing with rareities*

PerL, you're excluded from this one (if it wasn't Geir Tony who found
it...can't remembere heh)
Can people recognise this then?


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## PerL (Jan 9, 2001)

*Re: Continuing with rareities (WAUOla)*

It was I that linked you to those pics








And that q just have to be badass!


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## WAUOla (Apr 15, 2005)

TRUE!


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