# VRT blowing out spark



## VR6Will (Apr 19, 2004)

I've been having on going misfire issues with my 12v VR6 turbo for a while now. I'm running C2 440 map with 4" maf, turbo is GT3076R. 

When running wastegate spring pressure 0.8bar the car pulls absolutely fine and revs to the limiter. When I turn the boost up (I have two setting on my apexi) 1bar and 1.2bar, the car pulls strong up to about 4000rpm when it starts misfiring but only at WOT. 

I've checked AFR, and is spot on with spring pressure, and spot on until misfire when AFR goes to under 10. 

I've been running BKR7E's at ~0.026. I've used a stock coil and a ford coil, with the ford coil the misfire is better, but still there. 

A friend also has exact same setup as me, I've tried his ECU, HT leads, maf and I still have the problem. I've also changed the plugs (BKR7E's again) and tried several OE coils and a ford coil (ford coil is better). 

It feels to me as if the spark is being blow out with more boost, but why am I seeing this problem and not my friend? My friend uses the stock coil. I've seen some people use the NGK R5671-8 plug - do you think I should try these plugs? I heard they can cause issues with electronics in the car becuase they dont have a resistor? 

I've read I should be able to run 0.030-0.035 gap with ford coil 

Could there be something else wrong with my setup? Can I check the coil is getting enough volts to produce a strong spark?


----------



## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

Where are you referencing your wg line? No boost leaks?


----------



## VR6Will (Apr 19, 2004)

No boost leaks, 

So the wastegate is connected to the apexi solenoid with a t-off to the turbo housing, same as my friends, also when engine was first built years ago was OK.


----------



## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

Lower plug gap... 

Never had a problem with stock coilpack on my setup but then again im using Lugtronic's plug n play standalone
... boost 15-30psi np... :beer:


----------



## R32Smoker (Oct 21, 2010)

I've been struggling with this same issue for over a year now. I replaced my ignition system three different times; currently running the DUI Ford coilpack, bkr7's and 8' at various gaps from .020-.035, new maf, new wires, no leaks anywhere, and still can't boost above 17 psi without misfires. 

In my case I'm attributing it to my UM 630 software running too rich; how are your afr's?


----------



## R32Smoker (Oct 21, 2010)

Nevermind, just reread your post and saw you posted about your afr's. I'm curious as to what others have to say.


----------



## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

What fpr are you using? Also try moving the air filter as far away as you can from the maf housing...


----------



## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

R32Smoker said:


> I've been struggling with this same issue for over a year now. I replaced my ignition system three different times; currently running the DUI Ford coilpack, bkr7's and 8' at various gaps from .020-.035, new maf, new wires, no leaks anywhere, and still can't boost above 17 psi without misfires.
> 
> In my case I'm attributing it to my UM 630 software running too rich; how are your afr's?


Do u have an adjustable fpr? If not u need 1 to adjust the final afr at WOT... adjust pressure up or down depending on ur afr at wot... search jefnes post in here about the. 630# software both c2 n um as he made both... he made it that way for tuneability of the end user


----------



## Nevaeh_Speed (Jul 9, 2004)

I was blowing out spark at .026 so I went to .024 problem solved.


----------



## TrevorCouture (Jul 15, 2006)

oakgreen88 said:


> I've been having on going misfire issues with my 12v VR6 turbo for a while now. I'm running C2 440 map with 4" maf, turbo is GT3076R.
> 
> When running wastegate spring pressure 0.8bar the car pulls absolutely fine and revs to the limiter. When I turn the boost up (I have two setting on my apexi) 1bar and 1.2bar, the car pulls strong up to about 4000rpm when it starts misfiring but only at WOT.
> 
> ...



believe it or not i had this issue for awhile aswell. found out i was running out of fuel even though my wideband was reading 10.1 aswell. only thing i could think of was that when it was running out of fuel the car bucks and misfires and sending unburnt fuel into the exhaust system which makes the wideband read rich when actually it isnt. whats your fueling setup and where is you walbro placed in the fuel system


----------



## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

Aww don't we all have the same problems haha. I've been dealing with the same thing for over a year. Your running outta fuel theory sounds intriguing.


----------



## VR6Will (Apr 19, 2004)

I did wonder if it was fuelling. I'm running walbro 225 pump submerged in swirl pot with -6AN lines throughout, oe (but new) lift pump. 

Only thing that made me think it wasn't fuel was the fact it's better with the ford coil was should give stronger spark?

I'll knock the gap back to 0.020 at the weekend and see what difference that makes. I also have another walbro which I will try, if it is the pump I'll go for a Bosch 044 I think...

Thanks for your comments so far guys


----------



## TrevorCouture (Jul 15, 2006)

oakgreen88 said:


> I did wonder if it was fuelling. I'm running walbro 225 pump submerged in swirl pot with -6AN lines throughout, oe (but new) lift pump.
> 
> Only thing that made me think it wasn't fuel was the fact it's better with the ford coil was should give stronger spark?
> 
> ...


the fuel thing boggled my mind aswell for a long time. worth a try man. and i ran 0.030 gap with bkr8e's and 7e's with stock coil pack and did not have a problem. i also varied between 20psi and 35 psi at times after i fixed the fueling issue. i also have a 044 pump. but have upgrade to the new aeromotive stealth pumps. they pump more and are quiter


----------



## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

PjS860ct said:


> Do u have an adjustable fpr? If not u need 1 to adjust the final afr at WOT... adjust pressure up or down depending on ur afr at wot... search jefnes post in here about the. 630# software both c2 n um as he made both... he made it that way for tuneability of the end user


That procedure is applicable to Pro-MAF only (unless this has changed, then I stand corrected). He is on a stock MAF with 440 injectors.




oakgreen88 said:


> I've read I should be able to run 0.030-0.035 gap with ford coil


Yes you can but it will dramatically shorten the lifespan of the Ford coil (ie you are breaking down the coil). Keep in mind that the nature of combustion is completely different when NA vs FI and forcing the coil to drive spark across that gap for an extended period will lead to failure. 

If you drive the car daily and run > 20 psi I would suggest closing the gap down to ~ .022 - .024 or so. 

While the Ford coil will work with your boost level and .030 gap you will find that coil failure happens more often (when you test each post of the coil in extreme situations you will notice that one post is barely firing... which is sustainable for normal driving but under boost becomes an issue). I have a setup running a .030 gap with 30 psi but I rarely drive that car. The daily setup is gapped to .024 to preserve the coil. The Ford coil while more powerful does not handle extended abuse like the stock coil. For every stock coil that I have destroyed there are at least 4 or so Ford coils for a comparable time period.

Side note: no idea why your friend's car has none of the issues yours does. As others have suggested also take a look at your fuelling.



PjS860ct said:


> Lower plug gap...
> 
> Never had a problem with stock coilpack on my setup but then again im using Lugtronic's plug n play standalone
> ... boost 15-30psi np... :beer:


You daily this setup? And again with the precision of your tune you will have better longevity of your coil.


----------



## PjS860ct (Dec 22, 2002)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> That procedure is applicable to Pro-MAF only (unless this has changed, then I stand corrected). He is on a stock MAF with 440 injectors.
> 
> You daily this setup? And again with the precision of your tune you will have better longevity of your coil.


I was quoting r32smoker and I guess he only has the stg3 non promaf tune...

I dont daily my vrt, weekend beater status all year round on drag radials  my coilpack is original to my swap of 98... still going strong.. no misfires on 30+psi C16 fuel and ngk r5671a-9 plugs

But I am planning on upgrading to Bosch motorsport coilpack soon for this coming season :thumbup: :beer:


----------



## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

PjS860ct said:


> I am planning on upgrading to Bosch motorsport coilpack soon for this coming season :thumbup: :beer:


You will be very happy with that. :thumbup:


----------



## VR6Will (Apr 19, 2004)

Thanks guys, will try another walbro I have over the weekend! If its fuelling, I'm surprised its not gone bang!

Any links to threads on Bosch Motorsport coil?

Your thoughts on the NGK R5671-8 plug vs BKR7E?

thanks again for your help so far, most useful!


----------



## Boost112 (May 8, 2002)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> That procedure is applicable to Pro-MAF only (unless this has changed, then I stand corrected). He is on a stock MAF with 440 injectors.


...i have the UM 440 OBD II tune and it was running lean with the 3bar...i went with a 4bar...and it enriched everything up to 11.8 afr at around 15 psi...at 9psi with the 4bar i was seeing 12.6-12.8 at WOT... i called jeff and spoke to him and he told me that it was ok to adjust the fuel pressure to tune the afr at WOT...he also told me that the tune doesn't really fatten up until after 10 psi...so i have kept the 4bar fpr and am raising the the low psi setting to 11-12psi to fatten it up a bit at WOT...either way... from when i spoke with jeff... it should not be an issue to adjust the fuel pressure to get the correct WOT afr's...just don't go crazy by raising it over 4.5bar...


----------



## V-dubbulyuh (Nov 13, 2005)

Boost112 said:


> ...i have the UM 440 OBD II tune and it was running lean with the 3bar...i went with a 4bar...and it enriched everything up to 11.8 afr at around 15 psi...at 9psi with the 4bar i was seeing 12.6-12.8 at WOT... i called jeff and spoke to him and he told me that it was ok to adjust the fuel pressure to tune the afr at WOT...


You are right that it "works" to tweak fuel pressure (and I have done it too) however I have only ever seen Jeff directly state (by means of the included instructions with the 630) that this method is acceptable on the Pro-MAF. The 440 is/was an off the shelf tune that he wrote for a particular fuel pressure.

Not sure the details of your setup but a 3bar should not be leaning out on that 440 until it is really being pushed. Don't know if this is your case in particular but any time I have seen behavior like that it was related to a restriction (eg line, fuel filter, FPR itself, etc). At least you have it running to your satisfaction.


----------



## TrevorCouture (Jul 15, 2006)

V-dubbulyuh said:


> You are right that it "works" to tweak fuel pressure (and I have done it too) however I have only ever seen Jeff directly state (by means of the included instructions with the 630) that this method is acceptable on the Pro-MAF. The 440 is/was an off the shelf tune that he wrote for a particular fuel pressure.
> 
> Not sure the details of your setup but a 3bar should not be leaning out on that 440 until it is really being pushed. Don't know if this is your case in particular but any time I have seen behavior like that it was related to a restriction (eg line, fuel filter, FPR itself, etc). At least you have it running to your satisfaction.


yes. 3 bar is the fuel pressure for the 440 tune. so something may be going on i agree

and op

is you problem fixed yet  hope it all works out for yea


----------



## 'dubber (Jun 15, 2004)

The wideband will read towards lean if the fuel and air do not burn, or if there is a ton of unburned fuel/fuel vapor making it's way past the sensor.


----------



## masterqaz (Oct 5, 2007)

440 tune. Unplugging a spark lead registers as lean. Personal experience. Makes sense if you think about it.


----------



## TBT-Syncro (Apr 28, 2001)

oakgreen88 said:


> I did wonder if it was fuelling. I'm running walbro 225 pump submerged in swirl pot with -6AN lines throughout, oe (but new) lift pump.
> 
> Only thing that made me think it wasn't fuel was the fact it's better with the ford coil was should give stronger spark?


the coilpack and gap isnt the problem, there is an issue elsewhere. guys have made double your hp on stock coil packs.

step 1. verify the coil pack is getting good power.


----------



## VR6Will (Apr 19, 2004)

Still not having much luck 

Not been able to swap fuel pumps over yet as weather has been bad and cant get my car into the garage!

However, I started following the steps in this link: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...ack-(from-Bentley)&highlight=coilpack+bentley with the ignition on, I only just had 11.5v across pins 1 & 5 to the coilpack, still investigating...:banghead:


----------



## VR6Will (Apr 19, 2004)

BiSiE said:


> According to this:
> http://www.vwclub.org.ua/modul...id=42
> The black wire (+ feed) goes through the engine connector, merges with the power for VSS sensor and a black/green wire that goes to the ECM, goes to fuse box/relay panel PIN G1/4 which is 15 meaning it's the ignition switched main. doesn't look like there are any fuses there so if there is no power at the fuse box start looking at the feed wire coming from the ignition switch. Actually start with that, it should be easy to test...


Just read this post on from this thread http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4753675-Coilpack-ICM-Power-Wire-Fried-Where-does-it-go-! I am getting an intermitant fault code for VSS, so maybe a clue?


----------



## VR6Will (Apr 19, 2004)

So put the ford coil back on, and closed the spark right up, now 0.020, still got misfire although better than it was but I suspect this is from the ford coil only and not closing the gap.

Going back to thinking fuel pump, will keep you posted...


----------



## VR6Will (Apr 19, 2004)

So I finally got back to looking at my car, I've not been well and my sisters car required some immediate work.

Anyway, I changed the fuel pump for another Walbro 255, and still have exactly the same symptoms.

I'm now going to look at changing the engine side loom, and possibly fuse box. I'll keep you all posted.


----------



## zwogti (Jan 11, 2004)

Use power supply 12+ and ground for you coilpack straight from the battery, go for a ride and see what happens.


----------



## VR6Will (Apr 19, 2004)

funny you should mention that - I had exactly that idea, which I'll be trying out this weekend


----------



## rufturbo (Apr 26, 2013)

Had same problem with my vrt. Even tried cdi ignition and still had misfires at 4500rpm and above at boost over 10psi. Turned out to be stock valve springs floating due to exhaust manifold pressure (as exhaust manifold pressure is typically 1bar above inlet manifold pressure) Uprated valve springs solved the issue. Now revs to 7200 at 18psi with stock coil pack


----------



## R32Smoker (Oct 21, 2010)

Any updates? 

I swapped to a Unitronic tuned ecu with supporting hardware (4 bar fpr and A8 maf housing) and am still having misfires. I'm going to drive around for a while and see if it gets any better after the ECU adapts, but so far it's running worse than the United Motorsport tune. With the UM it would only misfire at WOT on high boost, and it's now misfiring at partial throttle on low boost.


----------



## DieGTi (Jun 19, 2001)

Back to basics- check output from all sensors in vagcom such as air temp, coolant temp, throttle position. 

Remove crank position sensor and wipe off metal debris that always accumulates on the magnet and may cloud the event trigger.

Remove and clean MAF sensor with specific spray. (I would do this first).


----------



## readytosoar (Dec 9, 2007)

had this issue years ago. Was running a microtech ecu. car would break up anything over 1 bar. Ground the coil direct from battery and the problem was solved for years. Hope this helps.


----------



## VR6Will (Apr 19, 2004)

rufturbo said:


> Had same problem with my vrt. Even tried cdi ignition and still had misfires at 4500rpm and above at boost over 10psi. Turned out to be stock valve springs floating due to exhaust manifold pressure (as exhaust manifold pressure is typically 1bar above inlet manifold pressure) Uprated valve springs solved the issue. Now revs to 7200 at 18psi with stock coil pack


Unfortunately I've had the issue with two different heads, the head I'm running now is big valve with Schrick valve springs.


----------



## VR6Will (Apr 19, 2004)

DieGTi said:


> Remove crank position sensor and wipe off metal debris that always accumulates on the magnet and may cloud the event trigger.


I thought about this the other day and will do this next. The reason behind me thinking this was, the car has been difficult to hot start a couple of times now. 



DieGTi said:


> Remove and clean MAF sensor with specific spray. (I would do this first).


I've tried with another MAF sensor from my friends VRT which runs with no issues, unfortunately it was the same :banghead:


----------



## mdlite (Nov 22, 2009)

Anything new? Mine just started the same problem c2 promaf 630 tune 4 bar fpr walbro 255


----------



## 2.0 Ho (Sep 27, 2006)

Has anyone run a vag com to get codes on this? I'm curious on this as well because I have a really bad mis issue but mine is more at idle.


----------



## mdlite (Nov 22, 2009)

Update on my end, walbro wiring was done by an idiot, Fixed that, plug wires were arcing, fixed that. Swapped a 3 bar fpr and its running perfectly. I am running msd coils. Hope this helps


----------



## bikertard (Oct 16, 2010)

*VRT blowing out spark.*

I had the same issue, I installed the MSD coilpack (three GM style coils), problem solved.


----------

