# C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results



## BlueMk3VR6 (Aug 7, 2001)

Last Saturday I went to a dyno GTG and wanted to see better numbers after I switched to the 2.75" pulley and software update from C2. Boost was at 11-12 psi range in the high rpm's. The numbers came lower (217.50hp/193.33trq, AFR readings in the 10's, some spots lower.) then when I dynoed with old software and 2.87" pulley (224.66hp/194.37trq, AFR mid/high 12's).
On the 3rd run the FPR was swapped with another 3bar and the difference was higher in 3hp (214hp with my FPR). The night before I swapped new plugs, another set of BKR7E's gapped at .025" as usual. The belt was perfect, no slippage at all. Still running Siemens DEKA 9266 injectors.
Does anyone have any idea what is going on?


















_Modified by BlueMk3VR6 at 12:46 PM 8-13-2007_


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## radoboy (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results (BlueMk3VR6)*

I was there when Arnie was dynoing his car. This chart shows the 2 best pulls out of 4 I believe. He did at least 1 pull in 4th gear with his original FPR, and the AFR went to 10.0 flat (which could be richer but dyno wideband only reads to 10.0) from 4500-6500 I believe. This pull was around 200whp. I am getting a copy of all pulls on disk and will look at them a bit closer. In each case the boost gauge read to 11-12psi near redline.
We swapped a known good 3 bar FPR in just in case his original 3 bar was defective and causing excess fuel pressure. While it did result in slightly leaner mixtures it was still hovering in the mid 10-low 11 range and resulting in 217whp.
On the same day an all motor VR6 put down 185ish whp with some bolt ons (his best pulls to date), so the dyno does not read low.
Once I get the dyno pulls on disk I will provide them to you Arnie.


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results (BlueMk3VR6)*

wow, thats horrible dude. dont feel bad though. i dyno'd mine, made 220whp at 14psi but 435wtq...







anyway, the guy says the torque was off, but not the whp. we will see within a week or so what it really does.
the issue youre having is odd though. its dumping fuel it sounds like...bad/incorrect eprom? check the version with the vag com


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results (-THROTTLE-)*

You need to look into your car for other problems...Codes? misfires?
hell my ABAt makes more power than that........with a tiny turbo....and stock compression


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## BlueMk3VR6 (Aug 7, 2001)

well thanks, but everything look fine as far as I know. I need to VAGcom it and see if there is anything. I have the latest software version that Jeff updated with the O2 plugged in. I really don't know what is going on.


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## Vdubsolo (Apr 11, 2004)

*Re: C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results (BlueMk3VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlueMk3VR6* »_well thanks, but everything look fine as far as I know. I need to VAGcom it and see if there is anything. I have the latest software version that Jeff updated with the O2 plugged in. I really don't know what is going on.

Check for vac leaks..the c2 is super sensitive to vac leaks resulting in 10.0m AFR in WOT since its ran off the stock ECU..I dynoed with an AFR on avg of 11.5 on the street i usually see anywhere from 11.0-11.8 which is on the rich side but not too bad...10' Are iffy, go over all your vacuum lines..


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## Salsa GTI (Aug 29, 2000)

*Re: C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results (BlueMk3VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlueMk3VR6* »_well thanks, but everything look fine as far as I know. I need to VAGcom it and see if there is anything. I have the latest software version that Jeff updated with the O2 plugged in. I really don't know what is going on.

The Latest Software is golden...Please Update us with a Vag Com of this


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## BlueMk3VR6 (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results (Salsa GTI)*

what other things should I look for? I'm really pissed about this thing.


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## mrbikle (Jul 2, 2005)

im having the EXACT same problem....im at 10 PSI on c2 obd2 software....plugg gapp to .023, no CELs, cleaned new MAF. Im thinking its a vac leak....tester is in the mail.


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## mrbikle (Jul 2, 2005)

previous run of 245hp/290troque with a 4 bar FPR and a small exhaust.


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## BlueMk3VR6 (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: (mrbikle)*

hmm...I'll check for the leaks. Maybe I get them while in the boost, but at idle and while driving it is sitting at 20-24 range. But also my gauge is showing 12psi while in boosting.


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## The Yoda (Nov 28, 2005)

*Re: (BlueMk3VR6)*

sounds like a normal C2 s/c number for me







Your not the only one putting down low numbers out there.


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## slc92 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: (The Yoda)*

[email protected] 12psi def. doesn't sound right. I'm thinking 250-270 whp. I know VF Corrados have been known to be in the 220 range but that's only at 8psi. I should dyno next week so we'll see. Seems like C2 software is hit or miss.


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## BlueMk3VR6 (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: (slc92)*

yeah, def not sounding right. I have seen people on here with the same setup having more whp.


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## hubbell (Oct 30, 2001)

*Re: (BlueMk3VR6)*

do you have your sai plugged in?


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## BlueMk3VR6 (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: (hubbell)*

bump...


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: (BlueMk3VR6)*

from another thread, but somewhat useful to you:
got this in reply to an email to C2
a few things:
obd2 (all VW's do this) disables o2 control when the air pump and related equipment are not
installed on the car.
with no air pump you likely have no o2 control. (this doesn't matter much on the
older software (before june 2007))
older 42# softaware came in 2 flavors: turbo and sc versions.
My current obd42# software, eliminates the air pump, cat and rear o2 sensor.
it has been completely re-mapped form top to bottom. It is compaticaly with both turbo and SC
applications.
My suggestion: update software to the current 42# Vr6 tune.
Please contact [email protected] or call 502 895 3660
to sort the details.

jeff told me the same thing about having atleast the little black unit with the 2 vac ports on itplugged in


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## BlueMk3VR6 (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: (-THROTTLE-)*

C2 stated that they cannot come up with an answer for the power loss. It really sucks to be honest and I'm really disappointed in this whole thing.


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: (BlueMk3VR6)*

o2 sensors good? knock sensors? not that its pulling timing or not reading your fueling right...


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## Freerider1125 (Apr 14, 2003)

*Re: (-THROTTLE-)*

Have you done a compression or leakage test? Are the mechanicals all in good order?


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## BlueMk3VR6 (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: (Freerider1125)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Freerider1125* »_Have you done a compression or leakage test? Are the mechanicals all in good order? 

compression has been done....170-190 range.


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: (BlueMk3VR6)*

your compression is good. like i mentioned, maybe your o2 sensors arent reading right? any codes coming up?


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## mrbikle (Jul 2, 2005)

initially when i put my turbo project together, i was told by some people in the mk3 forum that the rear o2 sensor was the same bosch sensor as the front with a different pigtail. When I installed my kit, my front o2 was stuck in the downpipe in the stock setup. I cut the pigtail off the front, said eff it to the front sensor, and spliced in the rear o2 sensor. This made my AF's look like yours (and mine currently). Even though the o2's only control fueling under partial throttle and then reverts to a base map for WOT, using the rear o2 in the front was shorting out the circuit somehow and dumping fuel just as the above graphs show as soon as the car hits WOT. My current situation I believe is a boost leak...making my car run lean under vac and then super rich under WOT and boost. 
No one gave me the memo that turboing a NA car is so painfully flustrating


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## mrbikle (Jul 2, 2005)

another question or thought...if the front o2 was unplugged all together, would that completely get rid of that circuit, so would it negate any breaks in the harness that might be shorting out as well? What AF ratio should be expected if this was done?
Dont mean to hijack your thread, but this sound slike it might be relivent information.


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## BlueMk3VR6 (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: (mrbikle)*

np....I haven't scanned anything yet. I'll meet a friend who has the VAG-com tomorrow and see if anything is coming up. Will keep you updated !!!


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## mrbikle (Jul 2, 2005)

it will throw an o2 slow to respond code or short in the primary o2 circuit


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## VR6OOM (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: (mrbikle)*

Arnie...have you checked for exhaust leaks? Could be the O2 is sniffing lean and dumping fuel? Don't worry...you're not the only fi mk3 vr with problems in town. I'm about to post mine.


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## LSinLV (Nov 25, 2001)

*Re: C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results (BlueMk3VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlueMk3VR6* »_The night before I swapped new plugs, another set of BKR7E's gapped at .025" as usual. 

I'd run a cooler plug......I think the 7 is too high for the boost you are running. try a step colder.....maybe a hair more gap 0.028 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## BlueMk3VR6 (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results (LSinLV)*


_Quote, originally posted by *LSinLV* »_
I'd run a cooler plug......I think the 7 is too high for the boost you are running. try a step colder.....maybe a hair more gap 0.028 http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 

the 7's are two steps colder from stock....especially in the FL heat, I have to run colder plugs. I have them gapped at 0.025".



_Modified by BlueMk3VR6 at 11:22 PM 8-17-2007_


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## mrbikle (Jul 2, 2005)

would a fouled plug cause all this? I did a leak test today and had no luck...my vac is alittle ebtter fter fixing one leak and getting rid of the SAI and the emissions....but the AF is still ****.


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## VR6OOM (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results (BlueMk3VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlueMk3VR6* »_
like?

BKR6E's. I know pepboys stocks 7E's so they might have the 6's. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## hubbell (Oct 30, 2001)

*Re: C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results (BlueMk3VR6)*

gave this some thought......things to check....
1. all vac leaks are gone
2. check engine codes, clear them and then drive again and check codes again, two days later. if a code fix the coe problem first
3. 3 bar FPR
4. make sure SAI solenoid is fully plugged in, physically make sure it is properly plugged in
5. do the same for both o2 sensors, if one is not fully plugged in the car will run rough
6. check all your plugs, replace if peace of mind, one bad plug and the car wont run correctly
7. check your coilpack with another cars coilpack
8. make sure the belt is totally tight, overtighten if necessary to ensure this
9. make sure the DV is oriented correctly 
10. hose clamp everything, i mean everything!
11. make sure your inline fuel pump is running
12. new fuel filter
13. make sure the MAF sensor is oreinted correctly, has arrow for this
14. call c2 and make sure your chip is the correct one just to double check
15. get an 8 rib belt and cut it down to 7 ribs, makes a huge difference regardless
16. check your blue temp sensor, the one that controls your fueling for the ECU, its on the thrmo housing.
17. im out of ideas but those should keep you busy for a while
18. take off charger and go turbo if none of thse fix your issue.








best of luck, rick


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results (hubbell)*

i wanna watch this thread also. 
i was the one Throttle got the email from. 
i zip tied ALL of my vacum lines to the point they start and finish. doesnt hurt to try it out. AND who doesnt love zip ties


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results (punk rock kiel)*

punk rock - correct, i did get the email info from your thread. and it has its points.
about the bkr6 plugs. just ask for ngk 16v plugs. they are stock plugs for the 2.0 16v motor. they are one step cooler than stock vr plugs. i also run the 7s like you arnie. im in nj, not nearly as hot. they do run cooler than the 6's did in my car. also, jeff recommended 7s in the summer for me. i think youre fine.
about getting an 8rib belt and cutting it. its an idea, worth trying. i personally wouldnt feel safe having the edge of the belt sliced up by a razor though. thats your call, but he did post good things to look into http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## punk rock kiel (Aug 27, 2003)

*Re: C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results (-THROTTLE-)*

more belt=less slip tho. 
problem is no one makes a 7 rib in our size, it jumps right to 8 rib where the sizes are real close together so you can get the right lenght


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## BlueMk3VR6 (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results (punk rock kiel)*

Got the car VAGed saturday and came up with no faulty codes at all. The timing was off a little, by 0.7 at idle. I also found out that the car won't boost past 5 psi at all (usualy 3rd gear as on the dyno) it's just falling on it's face.
I got roughly 10 psi in the 1st, 7 in 2nd and 4-5psi in the 3rd gear with the pedal floored...and there was no power at all.
Got it also scanned with VAS at a local dealership and had the same results as the VAG. A friend who is a daily boosted guy informed me that the cat may be clogged up. However, I did not get any codes as far as the O2 sensors, MAF, coilpack, misfires, etc.
I emailed the log files to Jeff and will see if he will find out what the hell is going on.


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## radoboy (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results (BlueMk3VR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *BlueMk3VR6* »_...
I got roughly 10 psi in the 1st, 7 in 2nd and 4-5psi in the 3rd gear with the pedal floored...and there was no power at all.


This behavior is new for your car though. I'm guessing perhaps the cat converter is clogged (maybe due to how rich the car was running). On the last dyno run you could smell the cat. The clogged cat may be limiting engine flow, resulting in it being unable to make boost. These are just guesses without seeing the car. We'll have to get up one day soon.


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results (BlueMk3VR6)*

Arnie - some reading for you...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3400854


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## BlueMk3VR6 (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results (-THROTTLE-)*

yes, pretty much same issue that I have.


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## BlueMk3VR6 (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results (BlueMk3VR6)*

bump.


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## bluemk3vr (Aug 29, 2002)

*Re: C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results (BlueMk3VR6)*

Get different software. Before c2 software my car dynoed 290whp w/ 10lbs of boost with the ams software. Then i put in their 42lb set up with a 15lb pully and my car only made 240whp








C2 kept telling me it was something wrong with my car, nope put the ams set back on and car runs great. 
Turbo cars seem to run ok with their software but all i have had was problems with their s/c software


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## BlueMk3VR6 (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results (bluemk3vr)*

I have the latest software that is out there for 30# and Jeff stated that it's seems to be fine. I'll have a friend take a look at everything whos got more knowledge about it then me over the weekend. Hopefully we can come up what is wrong with it.


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results (BlueMk3VR6)*

arnie - do you have any driving issues at all other than not making the expected power?


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## BlueMk3VR6 (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: C2 stg 1 s/c....dyno issue results (-THROTTLE-)*

No other issues, except what is happening now (not seeing full boost and power loss from the dyno). I took everything apart and want to check step by step. 
I'm also ordering the 42dd test pipe, so won't have any results until maybe later next week or so.


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## mrbikle (Jul 2, 2005)

i jsut replaced my sparkplugs to no avail....checking wires next and coilpack.


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## mrbikle (Jul 2, 2005)

go ing to revive this since it has similar problems as my setup. I pressurized my system to ~20 psi looking for leaks and found one...fixed it. My A/F ratio is still crap. It seems like it develops more leaks as soon as i take the tester off. 
There are no CEL's and front o2 working properly....what else would cause flat 10:1 off the chart fuel dumping in 3rd, 4th and 5th?
I have need plugs in it and new wires on the way.
My AF ratio at ildle seems to bounce around alot, from 12.5 to 16.5....is that noraml with a leak or is that something else?


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## mrbikle (Jul 2, 2005)

bump...shawn vaneer said possible bad MAF or TPS?


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## big bentley (Jun 6, 2001)

hmm Im pretty interested to see what goes on here. I believe im running 30# injectors with an older c2 software, but no o2 sensors at all..


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## redskins98 (Oct 6, 2005)

*Re: (big bentley)*

had the same problems,everything replaced,changed out the chip,with a TT stage1 chip and the car runs great,all problems went away,their turbo softwear is great,so is their customer service http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
sound cliphttp://s39.photobucket.com/alb...2.flv


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## momoVR6 (Jul 11, 2002)

*Re: (redskins98)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redskins98* »_had the same problems,everything replaced,changed out the chip,with a TT stage1 chip and the car runs great,all problems went away,their turbo softwear is great,so is their customer service http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif 
sound cliphttp://s39.photobucket.com/alb...2.flv

What turbo setup are you running? Kinetic? Techtonics offers a generic FI chip or is it custom? How much was it?


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## redskins98 (Oct 6, 2005)

*Re: (momoVR6)*


_Quote, originally posted by *momoVR6* »_
What turbo setup are you running? Kinetic? Techtonics offers a generic FI chip or is it custom? How much was it?

its running a v-1 charger,12 psi pulley,header into straight pipe


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## momoVR6 (Jul 11, 2002)

*Re: (redskins98)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redskins98* »_
its running a v-1 charger,12 psi pulley,header into straight pipe

Ok, but what's this about TT turbo software?


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## redskins98 (Oct 6, 2005)

*Re: (momoVR6)*

the soft wear ,a friend of mine said ""hear try this""i did and never had a problem,the car is getting turboed soon,so the chip will be up for sale


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## Corporaljohnson (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: (redskins98)*


_Quote, originally posted by *redskins98* »_the soft wear ,a friend of mine said ""hear try this""i did and never had a problem,the car is getting turboed soon,so the chip will be up for sale

It's not TT software, it's GIAC!


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## BlueMk3VR6 (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re:*

Will put everything back together tomorrow with a new test pipe and angle block. Took the cat off, bot new plugs, checked for boost leaks...will also VAGcom it and see if anything changed.
will keep you posted...


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## BlueMk3VR6 (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: Re: (BlueMk3VR6)*

got everything back together. New testpipe and angle block were installed for the O2 sensor. CEL is not coming on.... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Thanks to Wayne.
Radoboy and me tested it with few runs and the first time I stepped on it, it pulled really smooth all the way to 12psi at 6800rpm. I was really happy that it was fixed, but the later on few other runs I only came up to 10psi with full throttle.
It was just hesitating on the last two runs. No faulty codes showed.
I'm wondering what could have changed the 1st good run and the other ones?
I checked all the fittings, bought new K&N filter, cleaned the MAF sensor, new BKR7E plugs gapped at 0.025", checked all the tuning and DV, no leaks at all.
Does anyone have any idea what else could it be?


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: Re: (BlueMk3VR6)*

belt slip maybe? i had that, where i was making 14psi all day long, then all of a sudden was getting 10. the pulleys had some debri on them, making it slip. look into that arnie. glad to hear its running better.
i need to space out my a/c compressor to get the pulley to line up with everything else, as it continues to chew belts


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## radoboy (Oct 2, 2000)

*Re: Re: (-THROTTLE-)*

I guess anything is possible but the belt didn't sound/look like it is slipping. It is on their pretty damn tight. Definitely something to look into though Arnie.
edit...I found out that 82.5 deg is full open on OBD2 t-body...so Arnie's is openning all the way.


_Modified by radoboy at 12:16 PM 9-17-2007_


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## BlueMk3VR6 (Aug 7, 2001)

*Re: Re: (radoboy)*

got the car running again. Everything is put back in...42dd test pipe, O2 sensor angle block (no CEL), new plugs, rechecked leaks, new K&N filter, DV relubed and switched the other way around. Car is boosting 12psi in 3rd with full throttle.
Also found out that the 30# software was updated again to 1.35 and mine is 1.31, so Chris will check if I need to updated it again. Need to do the idle adaptation, but pretty much it's running. Will do some more test drives this week.


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## turbo mike (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: Re: (BlueMk3VR6)*

nice arnie, glad to hear you got it taken care of.
i fixed my belt issue (a/c pulley wasnt aligned properly) and also got my vacuum back to normal (you may rememeber in july when i asked you about yours)
so far so good. no belt issues and vac is good. time for dyno numbers and track times. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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