# Further Gruvenparts issues - Help Needed



## thommorud (Sep 2, 2010)

Around 3 months ago I had both heim joints develop lots of play and need to be replaced.

Now 2 weeks ago I had my control arms yolk snap in half and separate from the rest of the arm.





I have all parts needed but still waiting to get the replacement arm from GruvenParts - 2 weeks later still no indication of when this would be happening which is quite infuriating. 

Currently I'm trying to get everything back together and repaired while waiting on the arm. I got the sway bar link and the diff fluid but running into an issue.



The axle has pulled out of the differential and I'm unable to get it to line back up to push in. I can get it to spin freely but can't push it in further or pull it out to see if its just not lined up.


Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## mbaron (Aug 21, 2008)

Like that little pig said "That's all Yolks!"

Sorry:facepalm:


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Mine are starting to rust like yours and my car has literally seen rain twice since I have installed them. They had better replace them for you. Note on the website where they clearly state that they are indestructible...lol


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## thommorud (Sep 2, 2010)

I mentioned the "indestructible" part as well and they mentioned that anything can break if installed wrong. Unsure how it would be even be possible to install them incorrectly. Tighten bolt, make sure it still swings on it fine, job done.

Contact started 2 weeks ago, still unsure when they are going to be sending me a replacement, they already got the old one back. Pretty pissed with Gruvenparts right now, this is the second time my car has been undrivable because of them and this time its 2weeks + with no sign of getting the replacement.


Anyone have any experience with the Forge ones? seem to be beefier on the ends and no heim joint to mess up.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

CPT or bust. You could prolly have a fab shop clean and re-weld the joint back up for you.


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## poopie (Feb 22, 2005)

i sent you a PM 

but you can have a fabricator build and weld a new end for you to get back rolling. looks like they did a crap job welding that threaded section. The BW ends look stronger with a through bolt style so you can't yank the threaded rod out.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

DeckManDubs said:


> CPT or bust. You could prolly have a fab shop clean and re-weld the joint back up for you.


Yeah I would go with the CPT if mine were to fail.


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## thommorud (Sep 2, 2010)

So just heard back Gruven and it will be at least another week before they can send one out to me.

I already sent the old one back. Once my dad saw the pictures he said he could just weld it but too late now. Also no longer have the originals so unable to get a kit on those.

Those CPT ones look nice, much beefier on the yolk end than the Gruven ones and the heim looks nicer. It looks like ill be ordering a set given I can get them in a reasonable time.

Thanks for the recommendations.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

I always get looked at, like I have two heads, when I tell people that these arms aren't suited for a car that see "real" street duties (Metro NY roads would take care of these in a hurry).


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

madmax199 said:


> I always get looked at, like I have two heads, when I tell people that these arms aren't suited for a car that see "real" street duties (Metro NY roads would take care of these in a hurry).



Your spot on the money Max. From an engineering standpoint, they are designed for the track (expect track lifespan/less on public roads due to being exposed from an uncontrolled environment)

Just because it was used on a race car, does not make it better for street use. 

@ 25k on the CPT ones, no wear on the bearings. But the seals should be replaced in 10k. At this point it is better to toss in a new set of joints with new seals. Again, track components see more maintenance in a season than most people on here do in 3 years.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

As much as I think Gruven is a great company, they need to redesign their arms in order to get my business. They've proven that they have issues. From the homework I've done, the BW arms look like they would be the best built, without breaking the bank. I'm probably going that route. Soon..

For the price of one pair of CPT, you can get 2 pair of these..

http://bwperformance.com/products/2832-vr6/vw-r32-audi-tt-adjustable-control-arms


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## beetlevdubn (Apr 25, 2005)

No one has mentioned your axle issue, so I'll address that one.

You need to unbolt the axle from the axle flange, then use a rubber mallet to pop it back in. The flange should just be held in place by a snap ring. Its been a while since I pulled one, but after removing the axle, you can look in the center of the flange and see if it has an allen bolt holding it in place. There may be a rubber plug in the center that has to be removed to expse the bolt (if there is one). If the flange is just blank, pop it back in. If it has an allen bolt, then the bolt pulled out of the Haldex, which would be very bad.

See if you can unbolt the axle and see what is there.


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

this isn't good to hear for a 3rd time around on Gruven's part...hope they take care of you. CS with them for me has always been good for the most part but what sold me the first time around was the "durability" of their construction and having conversations on the phone and in reading about how these were made by professionals who build similar control arms for 4x4's, off road, etc. 

I bought a set of 4...knock on wood, I haven't had any issues as of yet. Heim's seem tight and I clean/lube them with green syn grease just about every oil change. The "edges" of the welds and adjustment nut are sweating a bit of rust which lends to a poor powdercoat which I was going to remedy this winter by redoing them myself...but welds...man...I hope they are good. 

Before having Gruven's, I had the Forge units...lower only. I don't recommend them. Part of it was the PO's fault for not keeping the adjustment mech free...but also the spherical "rose" joint found on earlier TT's (there is a recall for it...) on my lower knuckles had "froze" and caused very little flex in the fork joint area...stressing the fork and made the D side crack/break completely (hobbled home) and the p side on inspection when I removed the stock arms for Gruven install was nearly frozen up and the arm itself had a full crack on one side and one nearly through on the other...

The fault there...the rose joint. 

I replaced mine with a complete set of "new" rose joints and just keep an eye on them, keep the car clean and keep them lubed to prevent corosion. The "new" replacement joints if you (or others) cars have had it done is a "bonded" rubber bushing that is pressed into the upper and lower spindle/knuckle housing in the rear where the "fork" of the arm connects. Have you check to see if you have the "original" rose joints (all metal in construction with simply rubber boots) or the bonded piece? 

Why didn't I go with the recall replacement bonded bushing? Well...taken care of, the spherical is the better/tighter piece for handling purposes. Less cave, less give...more accurate in response. 

Seeing that damage, I would def. check out your joints (I'm sure you already did). Like i said, on my 2001 the upper joints were fine but the lowers were frozen and nearly frozen *I replaced all four regardless*


carnage from 2 years ago...was middle of winter (don't drive her in the winter anymore)




















culprit...



















and was so happy to install these guys...new to the market, had to be one of the first...










Hoping the outcome for this isn't "this" for all of us...

I highly recommend checking the rose joints to see if 1. you have the pre-recall part or the new rubber bushing. If you have the "spherical rose joint-pre recall item", it is easy to check with a screw driver through it and moving it back and forth, up/down, etc. It should move quite easily. If not...you will more than likely find it seized...

I just recommend it having "been there...done this" before. And before you throw something else on, you want to make sure its legit there whichever way you go. I'd love to play with the idea of "tapping" the rear knuckle and rose joint through the race/housing and making these "greaseable" to solve the problem for those of us that want to keep the pre-recall joints..but the bonded units are readily available if your TT didn't already have them done. 

Believe 2003 + had the bonded unit...




Joe


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

warranty225cpe said:


> For the price of one pair of CPT, you can get 2 pair of these..
> 
> http://bwperformance.com/products/2832-vr6/vw-r32-audi-tt-adjustable-control-arms


$325 > $420? I'm not following your calculations. 

Great info from RabbitGTDguy ^^^^^, and another thing to check next time I'm under the car. :thumbup:


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

Furthermore...I have heard/seen that many of the TT's that had this problem never had the actual procedure to "fix" it done at the dealer...so many are still running around on perfectly fine rose joints...probably some more in the northern states that are running around on units that are going "bad" and never had it taken care of by Audi. If its an early car....I'd def check it. 

Thinking around the crack in the fork itself...the welds on my Gruven's really looked good and the "fork" they use is heavy duty compared to the Audi stock control arm which easily cracked. 

The way that yours cracked really lends me to believe that you might really want to check those joints. Given that the fork is reinforced way beyond what the factory had, it is possible that your joint was frozen on that side (or near to it) and the "crack" the occurred in the gruven fork was induced by the only place that the "fork" could relieve the stress/twisting forces that would be induced on the part from the seized joint. Makes sense that "where" it would break if that was the case was the point where the metal would be the weakest (the hole for the spindle) and slowly worked itself from there. 

I'm not expert, I could be totally wrong...but...def something to check. 

Here is the rose joint inspection method and there was even a video directly from the MK1 QuattrowWorld Wiki. 

http://wiki.quattroworld.com/index.php/TT.Mk1_Checking_Rear_Control_Arm_Rose_Joint

Like I said...I hope (not for your sake) that it isn't a flaw in the Gruven's themselves for the several thousands of arms they have out there now...and for what I thought was a quality product. I realize that there are better quality heims out there, I realize its a "track part" and should be expected to need more maintaining and/or wear out faster and so far....so good with me...but this could be something else to look at. 

If it isn't the culprit...maybe we are looking at some problems with the gruven arms...and that would stink... 

Hope it helps. 

Joe


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

Kmac full kit > any aftermarket control arms

You can run MORE than enough camber and correct toe with them. I don't understand the need for adjustable control arms when you have a good solution already on the market?


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

DougLoBue said:


> Kmac full kit > any aftermarket control arms
> 
> You can run MORE than enough camber and correct toe with them. I don't understand the need for adjustable control arms when you have a good solution already on the market?


If I still had my stock arms I would get these in a heartbeat. Maybe I should look for used ones. 
On another note I'm changing my haldex fluid today. I'll take some pics of my arms when it's up on the lift!


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

If I went back in time, I'd do the KMAC's as well looking at some of the things coming out lately. But...we've got what we've got at the moment. 

Live and learn...like I said...knock on wood...haven't had any problems with mine as of yet and they have been on for 2 years...hoping it stay that way. If not...might be looking for some OEM arms and KMAC's...

Currently...I have all the adjustability I need in the rear. Its the front that could benefit from SPC's or camber plates... its well in spec though! 

Rear...no problem. 

Joe


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## trixx (Dec 23, 2002)

warranty225cpe said:


> As much as I think Gruven is a great company, they need to redesign their arms in order to get my business. They've proven that they have issues. From the homework I've done, the BW arms look like they would be the best built, without breaking the bank. I'm probably going that route. Soon..
> 
> For the price of one pair of CPT, you can get 2 pair of these..
> 
> http://bwperformance.com/products/2832-vr6/vw-r32-audi-tt-adjustable-control-arms


i'll take a picture of the pair of BW arms i just got in... they look like they're military spec compared to those gruven parts arms, and for the price they're much nicer looking peices too... i'll be installing them this weekend 

as for the comments on the rose joints... one of my lower rose joins was seized solid.. the other 3 were good.. man was the car creaking in the rear end like a bastard and i'm very lucky i didn't snap an OE control arm from the stresses caused by the siezed rose joint. i replaced both of the lower rose joints with the updated bonded rubber bushing (i didn't want mismatched lower bushings) and insepeted the uppers which ened up being in perfect working order.

although i don't have experiece with the gruven arms i've read a few horror stories about them and my buddy has a full set of 4 on his R and says they're noisy as hell, which leads me to believe the tollerances just aren't up to snuff or the components wear much faster than they should.

i think we can all agree on the following:

inspect your control arm bushings/rose joints
replace as required.
ditch those flimsy gruven arms
replace with KMACs/stock arms or CPT/BW arms.


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## mr.ramsey (Apr 9, 2008)

trixx said:


> as for the comments on the rose joints... one of my lower rose joins was seized solid.. the other 3 were good.. man was the car creaking in the rear end like a bastard and i'm very lucky i didn't snap an OE control arm from the stresses caused by the siezed rose joint. i replaced both of the lower rose joints with the updated bonded rubber bushing (i didn't want mismatched lower bushings) and insepeted the uppers which ened up being in perfect working order.


How much were the parts and how difficult a DIY was replacing the lower rose joints? 

I have that same creaking going on from my drivers side rear at the moment. Just dropped the car off at my indy this morning to have new swaybar bushings, droplinks and replacement heims (heavier duty/teflon lined and sealed) for my Gruven arms installed to try and remedy the situation. Gonna be pissed if the creak is still there (which it probably will be :banghead


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## thommorud (Sep 2, 2010)

Thanks for all the replys.

Just checked out my rose joint on that side and it definitely doesn't move as well as the one in the video that was posted. Its not completely stuck in place but there is resistance to it moving.

Is this something that can be user replaced or do you need special tools and a press to get a new one installed?

If I had my original control arms I would go with kmacs but sadly thats no longer an option.


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## trixx (Dec 23, 2002)

I rented a control arm bushing press kit from a local auto parts store ( it was a free rental, I just had to leave a deposit)... basically it's a glorified heavy duty c-clamp with different size disks and rings... hard to explain but you'll understand when u see it... once u figure out which pieces go where it's straight forward... 
replace the matching one on the other side... the original rose joints are NLA... you'll get the 'bonded rubber' ones now... btw... I have a pair new I can save u a couple bux on if you're interested

shoot me a pm


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

DougLoBue said:


> Kmac full kit > any aftermarket control arms
> 
> You can run MORE than enough camber and correct toe with them. I don't understand the need for adjustable control arms when you have a good solution already on the market?


Doug, we had a long thread going around before where I explained in details that these arms are meant to be on a race cars or car that see limited street driving like Joe's car. They require *religious servicing* that I doubt the average guy is going to be giving control arms. I had them on the evo and still have similar ones on the Saturn and the bimmer race car at work. I have to service them every couple of races(take them apart, clean and re-coat with silicone hinge lubricant and high temp dry film lubricant).

Another thing people fail to realize is that the joints have an expected life and are not lifetime parts like eccentric bushings on k-macs. I don't have them on my car because I still drive it everyday and not looking to keep up with the high maintenance, maybe when it becomes a dedicated track car I would use adjustable arms that are designed for that purpose!


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

madmax199 said:


> Doug, we had a long thread going around before where I explained in details that these arms are meant to be on a race cars or car that see limited street driving like Joe's car. They require *religious servicing* that I doubt the average guy is going to be giving control arms. I had them on the evo and still have similar ones on the Saturn and the bimmer race car at work. I have to service them every couple of races(take them apart, clean and re-coat with silicone hinge lubricant and high temp dry film lubricant).
> 
> Another thing people fail to realize is that the joints have an expected life and are not lifetime parts like eccentric bushings on k-macs. I don't have them on my car because I still drive it everyday and not looking to keep up with the high maintenance, maybe when it becomes a dedicated track car I would use adjustable arms that are designed for that purpose!


So you think Kmac's for a street car huh? I don't want to do any extra maintenance on my 180Q, but already have some BW arms. I can save those for the 225/track car though. Thanks in advance as always. 

PS: Your inbox is full again.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

20v master said:


> So you think Kmac's for a street car huh? I don't want to do any extra maintenance on my 180Q, but already have some BW arms. I can save those for the 225/track car though. Thanks in advance as always.
> 
> PS: Your inbox is full again.


Yes definitely, bushings for a street car unless you are anal about maintenance and willing to change the bearings often.

I will go clean the mail box right now, thanks!


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## beetlevdubn (Apr 25, 2005)

How do you adjust the KMac bushings? Since they are press in, is there a way to rotate the center piece, or ??? Does anyone have the instructions for them? I just want to see how they actually adjust.


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## beetlevdubn (Apr 25, 2005)

Nevermind, I think I see how they adjust. The bolts have flat sides, so I am guessing the bolt needs to be snug, then as you rotate the bolt side, it twists the bushing to the appropriate position. If you are super low, the upper and lower need to be adjusted to get the camber back to spec.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Here are pics of mine. Less than a year and have seen rain twice. 








































Also the powder coat is peeling off and its rusting under that. Wtf it looks more like paint. 
And if they weren't made for use on the roads then why wouldn't they say so??


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## beetlevdubn (Apr 25, 2005)

Man am I glad that I don't live on the east coast where they use salt on the road. My car has no rust on the parts you are showing, and you are right, for only a year old, the rust on those arms is alarming... I think that is part of the reason why BW uses alluminum on their ends and stainless on their heim joints. Aren't the heims stainless on the Gruven arms?


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

PLAYED TT said:


> Here are pics of mine. Less than a year and have seen rain twice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is disaster waiting to happen. You need to service them before they fail on you buddy!
The reason they don't say anything is because they are assuming the buyer knows what they are buying and have done their homework. Plus I am sure they don't want to lose any potential buyers by saying off road only on their products when the competitors aren't!


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

That rust is scary and I have to be honest...they look bone dry. As I said above...I regularly clean and lube mine at oil changes, etc. Just part of my routine and I have always been like that. Gruven suggests this as well. I think gruvens quality in protection paint def leaves something to be desired and if this is a powder coat...then their prep is seriously off or the paint is junk. 

Regarding the rose joints....they are NLA from the dealer. However, the p/n did show up and show stock available through world impel last time I checked as well as genuinevwaudiparts.com . It has been a year or so since I last checked for someone. I got my new ones still in the baggies from someone here on the Tex that had a ton of them sitting around back before it even happened. I got them to be prepared as yes....the big sign of failure is a loud creaking. They still make a bit of noise anyways...but there is def a difference. 

When I did mine...only the lower two were bad....however...I did all four. In my case due to the broken arm on the d side and stress put on that side...and the bearing....I removed both rear trailing arms and replaced all four rose joints along with the rear wheel bearings as well for piece of mind. It was an easy press in/put ordeal as I have a 20ton press that I used...trailing arm out made it fairly straight forward. As mentioned above though there is a tool for it to do by hand too!

My car sees road/street driving 3 seasons a year...does big trips, etc. It isn't a factor of miles that stretch this out but rather....honestly...in part....lack of attention. Attention to some details on Gruven's part at this point and lack of attentions at times by owners in kind of thinking "set it and forget it". I worry about the long run quality now of these and at the time I could have gone CPT but gave these a try and the company instead. Makes me think a bit. Thou, having a conversation with Paul a month or go or so regarding the other thread on here about the heims going bad, options, upgrades...unless I am being told a lie he said that other than the problem here and maybe one other person that they had no complaints and or problems with any others after several hundreds (and that could be thousands....would have to go look at the email...saved them all).

Lots of "ifs" here....and wondering now.

Joe


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Whats alarming is that My car has never seen snow or salty roads since these were installed. And how do you suggest I service them? Take them apart, lube them, then reassemble? What do I do about all the f-ing rust? This is starting to piss me off to say the least. I wasnt expecting this:banghead:


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## Morio (Feb 16, 1999)

madmax199 said:


> That is disaster waiting to happen. You need to service them before they fail on you buddy!
> The reason they don't say anything is because they are assuming the buyer knows what they are buying and have done their homework. Plus I am sure they don't want to lose any potential buyers by saying off road only on their products when the competitors aren't!


WOW!!! I agree!!that is a mess stop painting your wheels and start dealing with your rust on hardware issue...... I would be freaking out if I saw that much rust on the bottom of my car...


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

RabbitGTDguy said:


> That rust is scary and I have to be honest...they look bone dry.


What I dont get is My car saw less than 3000 miles since these were on and under a year. I don't know where the grease went:screwy:


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Morio said:


> WOW!!! I agree!!that is a mess stop painting your wheels and start dealing with your rust on hardware issue...... I would be freaking out if I saw that much rust on the bottom of my car...


I only noticed this once I put the wheels on, which I had it on the lift for.....I feel like I need to pull all 4 of them and strip them, rebuild them and re coat them. Damn it these things are JUNK!


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

PLAYED TT said:


> I only noticed this once I put the wheels on, which I had it on the lift for.....*I feel like I need to pull all 4 of them and strip them, rebuild them and re coat them*. Damn it these things are JUNK!


in your case, I'd say that's what is needed at the very least!


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## poopie (Feb 22, 2005)

a wire wheel and a bench grinder to clean up the mess on the arms. Then wire wheel on a drill to attack whats under your car. The bottom of my car does not look like that. Theres a bit of rust on everything which is surprising because the bolts audi uses are very corrosion resistant.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

poopie said:


> a wire wheel and a bench grinder to clean up the mess on the arms. Then wire wheel on a drill to attack whats under your car. The bottom of my car does not look like that. Theres a bit of rust on everything which is surprising because the bolts audi uses are very corrosion resistant.


Yeah I know. Looks like I have some work to do this winter :sly: what should I coat them with? That's the big question as cleaning them is strait forward


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

POR15 everything!

The bottom of my car isn't quite as bad but it's rough. I need to do the same thing one year...


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## poopie (Feb 22, 2005)

PLAYED TT said:


> Yeah I know. Looks like I have some work to do this winter :sly: what should I coat them with? That's the big question as cleaning them is strait forward


a powder coat job should be pretty cheap. probably around 75-100. Or you can use por15. I think they have aerosols now if you don't have a sprayer.


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

as far as "maintaining" them... what kind of grease were you using? For 3k, unless you went through a acid bath or something that stripped everything from them...they look as if they have never been greased. The rust on the zirc fitting is what I noticed initially. Mine don't have any of that yet did see 1.5 winters and 3 season weather...not babied...but always greased. 

Mine do show the "rust sweat" around the adjustment nut edges, etc. again...nothing to that extent. 

You can easily conclude...in this case...the best thing to do would be to take them off, diassemble and media blast them....and powdercoat again. This is what I intend to do this winter and I may upgrade to the booted heims even though I'm not experiencing any problems. 

Regular maintenence on them is quite simple. Grease the zircs every 5k (at oil change) or for me...once a season. When greasing them I grease until I see "fresh" grease ooze out and then two more squeeze. There is extra "up there" sitting...but it keeps the entire joint "coated" as well and keep them pretty clean. When I relube them I wipe away as much as I can that is there again (a mess) and then regrease. 

I use this...

http://www.greengrease.net/










never have any problems with it "disappearing" or not being able to hold up to the elements. Have a gun just for it and keep it for that. Use it on my Cherokee as well for the joints and trac bar fittings, etc. Good stuff and doesn't break the bank (goes a long way). 

I then take a cloth, spray some silicone spray on it (use on my gravely's plow blade and other bits during the winter to keep it slick/snow not stick) and wipe the arms down on occasion with it as well when I do the zircs. 

Finish is FAR from perfect...but they do need to be watched. 

if you don't want to powdercoat them...POR15 would work well. It likes a rusty surface best though. If you look in my pictures, I had the extra time waiting for the Gruven's to be done initially (when production first started) and I went through and paint the haldex carrier/cradle, both trailing arms, etc. to keep it clean under there...


Joe


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

I was thinking por15 as well. That way I can get a quart and go to town under there. As far as the grease I used Wurth http://store.blackforestindustries.com/wuhhshiprluo.html. Guess I need some heavier grease


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

I will have my car up on a lift this weekend. I will take some pictures of 25k of rain/snow/salt of the CPT ones. 

:beer:


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

DeckManDubs said:


> I will have my car up on a lift this weekend. I will take some pictures of 25k of rain/snow/salt of the CPT ones.
> 
> :beer:


I'm going to bet the finish on the CPT's still looks "good" after 25k. 

OP...have you talked to Gruven about the finish? 

Joe


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

I'm not the op, but I'm not even sure how I would word the email. 
(Sorry for stealing your thread op)


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## thommorud (Sep 2, 2010)

PlayedTT

those look awful. Even with mine rusting through on the bottom the heim joints didn't have any rust at all on them and mine went through a New England winter.

I have the booted heim joints on mine now which will hopefully help out. May not be a bad idea to get some yourself to prevent disaster in the future.


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Fuch all of this! I'm really thinking Full Kmac is the way to go. I've got the 1/2 kit on my lowers. For $160 I'm good. Kmac is pretty good too. I wore out a pair of their bushings some how, and they sent me a new set.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

I'm thinking about saying **** it. Buying used stock upper and lowers, full kmac, and replacing them. Then mailing the gruven ones back whith a pile of dog poop in it


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## iamraymond (Jan 22, 2004)

trixx said:


> i'll take a picture of the pair of BW arms i just got in... they look like they're military spec compared to those gruven parts arms, and for the price they're much nicer looking peices too... i'll be installing them this weekend



+1 of the GnG/BW arms. I've had mine installed for 2 years now and the are free of any wear. Mine go through hell as my car is on air ride and I lift/slam the car at least twice a day and even leaving the car slammed overnight which is really stressing the arms.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Can I see a link please?


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

PLAYED TT said:


> Can I see a link please?


For what? Google? Lol.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Never mind lol. I was on my phone when I read that so I wanted a quick link to their site. I got it when I went home. 
I sent them an email with the pictures. Now it's a waiting game


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## GruvenParts.com (Jul 31, 2007)

What Thomas failed to mention in the 1st post on this thread was that his OEM arms broke at the exact same point as our GruvenParts.com versions did. I believe there is a suspension issue going on with his car that is not caused by our control arms.

We are working with Thomas to replace the broken yoke on his control arm with a thicker section. But if he has some suspension issues that are causing binding, it will break again, or the whole hinge will break off the car. These are made from 4130 chromolly steel. IF you are breaking these, there is a significant other issue that should be dealt with. 

As for the rust pictures shown in the pictures on James' car, the whole bottom of your car is rusted. Look at the other hardware, bolts, flanges, not part of our control arm kit. They all have a HEAVY layer of rust on them. If you chip the powder coat off during installation, you will get some surface rust.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Not bashing, but there should be rust on my car...it's 10 years old. And powder coat won't flake off. Once again not trying to be a dick, just pointing this out.


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## GruvenParts.com (Jul 31, 2007)

No, a powder coat wont flake off. But its not a hard chrome plate. If you chip it with a open end wrench during installation, it will come off. 

Hey look if you guys want to put your faith in the BW arms made from 6061 (a very weak grade of aluminum), then go for it. Just know that a threaded steel heim into an aluminum arm will cause galvanic corrosion, not to mention that the thread strength will be magnitudes less than a steel arm. 

You have to keep the heims greased and ensure when they are installed that there is no binding. If the suspension cannot move freely, something is going to break. I highly suggest having an experienced alignment shop perform the set up to ensure there is no binding in the suspension. You will need them to align the car anyways, the amount of $ to install the arms is trivial. 

I also suggest for high rust environments buying our booted heim joints. These have a radial load capacity of over 10,000 lbs and are PTFE lined.

We have sold thousands of these control arms with very few issues.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Believe me I'm a welder. I trust steel over it any day. I'm not saying yours aren't better at all. I just don't want mine to snap. Looks like I'll take the suggestions of the forum members and rebuild them over winter. Then find some heavier grease for the heim joints if they are savable. If not I'll get the booted ones.


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## thommorud (Sep 2, 2010)

I had my car alignment checked or adjusted 3 different times since I did it after any change i made to the suspension. Nothing was ever mentioned about anything stuck or binder causing an issue.

I am replacing both rose joints as a precaution even though both of mine still have movement and aren't binding. 

This is also the first I've heard that you are working at building a stronger Yolk end on the control arm.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

I feel like that's my best choice as of now. Replace the Heim joints with booted ones and hopefully get all of the rust off and fix the chipping powder coat. Questions for the masses 
1 can I clean the rust off the zinc nut? How?
2 after examining closer there seems to be a rust line that looks like it's coming up through the powder coat where 2 pieces come together. Is it possible for the insides of these to rust too?
Thanks everyone for the help and opinions btw. And again sorry op for stealing your thread. I owe you one :beer:


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## poopie (Feb 22, 2005)

1) order new stainless jam nuts. 

2) hopefully this rust is just on the surface and most of it should be able to be removed with little effort. 

here are somethings that can help you out. 

if you have a bench grinder you need one of these. 










wire brush pipe cleaners to get into the threads










coat the threads on both joints with anti-seize so the threads don't rust.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

PLAYED TT said:


> Not bashing, but there should be rust on my car...it's 10 years old. And powder coat won't flake off. Once again not trying to be a dick, just pointing this out.


Not taking sides either way, but my 02 is 10 years old and has no rust on it. Granted I live in the SE, but your entire under side is coated in rust. Regardless, there is no way the joints were ever greased based on your pictures.


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## GruvenParts.com (Jul 31, 2007)

After going over the snapped control arm which Thomas sent back, we have found the heim joint to be completely frozen. It was not allowing the control arm to pivot up and down in the car properly.

This restraint caused the control arm to bind and subsequently snap at the yoke. The heim joint DOES NOT appear to have been properly greased.

So we are doing several things :

1. From this point on, we are using ONLY PTFE self lubricating heims. 

2. Heim Boots are NOW STANDARD. There is no option to order our control arms without the Heim boots. The bushings going thru the heims are specially machined to accept the boots and provide a near water tight seal.










We wanted to provide customers with a lower cost alternative control arm and we were initially requested to provide the heim joints either with or without dust boots. Because people are not maintaining the heims, we can no longer offer that as an option.

Going forward, all control arms will come with the dust boots and PTFE lined, self lubricating heim joints. The Heims are designed for 10,000 lb + radial load.

Any customers who have our older style control arms can contact me about buying the upgraded heims/boots bushing kits. Existing customers will get these AT COST. Please email me requests.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

Thanks guys for all of the help. Paul you will have an email soon. 
Oh and I most def greased my Heim joints. I just need to use a heavier grease next time around apparently. 
According to the back of the can Würth says it sprays on clear like a penetrating solvent, then turns into a grease. I sprayed some on my finger and although it did exactly what it was supposed to, I can see how it wasn't right for the application. I'll have to try that green grease mentioned earlier.


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## thommorud (Sep 2, 2010)

I had already mentioned that the heim joint was perfectly fine when it came off the car, when i was rotating it to get all the grease off it prior to shipping out i got it jammed.

Good to hear its going over to all fully sealed heim joints. Are these the same as your prior booted ones or a step up from those?


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## murTTer (Jun 27, 2009)

I have to say, I just ordered a pair of these (well about 3 weeks ago, still yet to receive them) and it makes me wonder if I should just ship them right back when I get them. I am not trying to have something that Im going to have to worry about leaving me stranded. I might as well just deal w the camber issues and replacing tires, atleast then I wont have to worry about becoming part of flatbed club. Just wish this post was up like 3+ weeks ago when I ordered mine. Thanx for the info though guys.


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## RabbitGTDguy (Jul 9, 2002)

I think paying attention to the heims, greasing them and going with a thicker grease will indeed be a good bet. Its good to see that this is being resolved as well. I like the idea of "knowing" that there is a better quality (if thats the case) joint in there. 

As far as the insides rusting...while it could happen, I think you'd have to be very careless in your maintaing of the car to do that...or drive through ponds frequently. Cro-Moly is very robust and strong compared to some designs I've seen out there and even though it is a steel based alloy, it has much better protection against rust vs. say straight steel, etc. Best case scenerio and what I intend to do this winter is to remove the arms, disassemble and media blast them...then have them professionally powdercoated. Not planning on major upgrades this winter so that will be a nice "little" project for the car. 

Maybe upgrade the heims as well. Like I said, mine are tight...good to go and I HIGHLY suggest the green grease ...it works really well. However...the thought of having a higher quality joint in there (if thats the case here) is hard to turn away from...

Props to Paul for posting and keeping up the CS which I honestly think has always been pretty top notch through GP. 

Joe


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

It's nice to hear that you guys are handling this Paul. Thanks for being a standup guy:thumbup:


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## taifighter (Dec 21, 2007)

Do people who purchased arms used from a private seller qualify for the at cost deal? I DD mine in the Midwest through the winters and I'd like the extra assurance of sealed joints.


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## mr.ramsey (Apr 9, 2008)

Chasing down some noises I had in my TT recently, I replaced the original heims /rod ends provided with upgraded QA1 Motorsport rod-ends that are stainless steel and teflon lined. 

The size I got were 3/4 inch and I believe they were right hand thread. 
http://www.qa1.net/qa1_motorsports/drag-and-street/rod-ends/2-piece/gm-t-series-stainless-steel.html










Felt a little bit of play in the original ones but they were in very good condition. I had lubed them originally when installed and put about 15k miles on them without touching. My noises were related to other issues so they weren't to blame.


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

As promised.

CPT


















The seals should be replaced in the next 5-10k. I plan on new joints and new seals. Every 25-30k is not bad.


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## chaldowhiteboy (Jun 14, 2010)

^the CPT ones are teflon coated at the arms, right?


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

chaldowhiteboy said:


> ^the CPT ones are teflon coated at the arms, right?


Yep


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## MikekiM (Aug 21, 2001)

If people are looking for arms that aren't using heims, the arms from Stern use poly bushings instead. Less bare metal on their arms so less corrosion problems.


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## chaldowhiteboy (Jun 14, 2010)

MikekiM said:


> If people are looking for arms that aren't using heims, the arms from Stern use poly bushings instead. Less bare metal on their arms so less corrosion problems.


Are these the ones from PureMS?


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

chaldowhiteboy said:


> Are these the ones from PureMS?


yeah


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

MikekiM said:


> If people are looking for arms that aren't using heims, the arms from Stern use poly bushings instead. Less bare metal on their arms so less corrosion problems.


NOW THATS HOW YOU DO IT :beer:


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## chaldowhiteboy (Jun 14, 2010)

MikekiM said:


> If people are looking for arms that aren't using heims, the arms from Stern use poly bushings instead. Less bare metal on their arms so less corrosion problems.


Haha hey Mike! I just realized that this is you.. It's John, I just came to pick these up about a half hour ago


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## mbaron (Aug 21, 2008)

MikekiM said:


> If people are looking for arms that aren't using heims, the arms from Stern use poly bushings instead. Less bare metal on their arms so less corrosion problems.



I ordered these last week after seeing the QW thread. The lack of heim joints sold me. The adjustment point (which seems like it would be a spot of failure) is closer to the center than the others, which worry's me.

They should be here tomorrow, but won't be on the car for a couple months.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

mbaron said:


> I ordered these last week after seeing the QW thread. The lack of heim joints sold me. The adjustment point (which seems like it would be a spot of failure) is closer to the center than the others, which worry's me.
> 
> They should be here tomorrow, but won't be on the car for a couple months.


I feel the same way about where the adjustments are placed on these, they got the bushing part right but put the adjustments in a weaker point that has proven to be a failure point on other arms. Bushings at the joints with adjustments at the ends is the right formula but nobody seem to have figured it out yet.


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## chaldowhiteboy (Jun 14, 2010)

madmax199 said:


> I feel the same way about where the adjustments are placed on these, they got the bushing part right but put the adjustments in a weaker point that has proven to be a failure point on other arms. Bushings at the joints with adjustments at the ends is the right formula but nobody seem to have figured it out yet.


where would you expect the adjustment part to be stronger in reference to this picture?


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

chaldowhiteboy said:


> where would you expect the adjustment part to be stronger in reference to this picture?


In reference to that picture:
- all the way to the right at the top
- all the way to the left at the bottom

Ideally, the design should be with the bushing housing as one piece male treaded and the rest of the arm tube female IMO.

These pics will help you picture what I am saying:

*Look at the two middle ones*


*In this you can see the male/female relationship I am talking about*

Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## l88m22vette (Mar 2, 2006)

madmax199 said:


>


Who makes those, they look great? Also, what kind of end bushings are those?


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

l88m22vette said:


> Who makes those, they look great? Also, what kind of end bushings are those?


These are Rough Country replicas and the ends are yet another ball-in joint with grease fittings(not the best solution). Something similar to them with poly bushings as joints at the end would be perfect!


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## GruvenParts.com (Jul 31, 2007)

The heim joint control arms are perfectly fine for this application. We have sold thousands of sets of these with very few issues. In all cases, the issues were caused by the heim joint NOT being greased by the customer. This is exactly what has happened to the original poster of this thread - the heim is completely frozen and cannot rotate. Something had to give, in this case it was a yoke made from 4130 chromolly. 

Because some owners are apparently not maintaining their heim joints, we have switched to a teflon lined, self lubricating heim joint with full dust boots on the heims to prevent any contamination. 










This is no longer an option, we are sending these standard on ALL units sold.

Im not taking away from the Sterns, but for high load applications such as racing and track events, you need to use the heims with metallic bushings. There is absolutely no play in the joint and turn in response is amazing. The Sterns have rubber inserts which will erode and cause play. They will also deflect quite a bit during hard cornering, which alters the suspension alignment and creates poor handling. If you are planning to drive solely on the street at normal speeds, these would be fine. For tracking, a 10,000 lb radial load heim joint is the right way to do it.

As for the pic of the CPT arms, those heims are NOT sealed. That is a simple "dust washer" which will not prevent contamination. That is is cheap way to do it, the better way is the fully enclosed heim boot shown in pic above.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

GruvenParts.com said:


> The heim joint control arms are perfectly fine for this application. We have sold thousands of sets of these with very few issues. In all cases, the issues were caused by the heim joint NOT being greased by the customer. This is exactly what has happened to the original poster of this thread - the heim is completely frozen and cannot rotate. Something had to give, in this case it was a yoke made from 4130 chromolly.
> 
> Because some owners are apparently not maintaining their heim joints, we have switched to a teflon lined, self lubricating heim joint with full dust boots on the heims to prevent any contamination.
> 
> ...


How about this Gruven, you send me a set of this new ones that you swear will work on both the street and track and I put them to test for the whole community? I push this chassis more than almost anyone since I compete in SCCA Solo competition at a national level but also drive the car every day. That would be a good oportunity for you to prove their worth with an unbiased long term review without the risk of install and maintenance error (I do my own installs and alignments). I have a lot of experience with the type of bearing you use because I have run them in several cars including a professional road racing world challenge E36 BMW we have at work, their life is usually limited(before they naturally develop play) and they require cleaning/servicing. If your claims are true, put them to the test, we'll all benefit (including you)!


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## TheDeckMan (Sep 26, 2004)

madmax199 said:


> These are Rough Country replicas and the ends are yet another ball-in joint with grease fittings(not the best solution). Something similar to them with poly bushings as joints at the end would be perfect!


x2

If Paul or CPT ditched the spherical ends for a poly bushing style, we would have a true winner. Now that I am thinking about it....I am going to make a set for my CPT's. Solve the problem for ever.


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## GruvenParts.com (Jul 31, 2007)

madmax199 said:


> How about this Gruven, you send me a set of this new ones that you swear will work on both the street and track and I put them to test for the whole community? I push this chassis more than almost anyone since I compete in SCCA Solo competition at a national level but also drive the car every day. That would be a good oportunity for you to prove their worth with an unbiased long term review without the risk of install and maintenance error (I do my own installs and alignments). I have a lot of experience with the type of bearing you use because I have run them in several cars including a professional road racing world challenge E36 BMW we have at work, their life is usually limited(before they naturally develop play) and they require cleaning/servicing. If your claims are true, put them to the test, we'll all benefit (including you)!


OK (and you can call me Paul). I cant give you them FREE but we'll give you a decent discount in exchange for abusing them. Under extreme conditions they wont last forever but Im willing to give it a go. Always good to work with people who work on their own cars AND track them. Email me and I will figure out what the shop will provide them to you for. :thumbup:


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## trixx (Dec 23, 2002)

just to throw another option into the mix

i just installed a pair of bluewater performance control arms 










i must say i was very impressed with the overall quility. it does use a heim joint and comes with a dust boot... i only foresee the heim joints eventually needing replacing after time... the rest of the arm looks almost indestructable :thumbup:


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## beetlevdubn (Apr 25, 2005)

What are most of you guys doing with your light leveling sensor, as shown above? Are most people ditching them, or fabricating a way to keep using them?


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

You'll need to keep them. You can either order the extra part built to hold or on, or use a hose clamp


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## taifighter (Dec 21, 2007)

beetlevdubn said:


> What are most of you guys doing with your light leveling sensor, as shown above? Are most people ditching them, or fabricating a way to keep using them?


Mine is disconnected and everything is fine.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk


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## beetlevdubn (Apr 25, 2005)

Does Gruvenparts or Bluewater sell the extra part you speak of?


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## beeyond (Oct 6, 2008)

Gruven does he addressed this about a year ago.

http://gruvenparts.com/website/cart/cart.php?target=product&product_id=396&category_id=60

pretty well thought out......

I am really surprised at the rust though then I looked and saw the BOLT & NUT as that is what really Grabbed me Gruven does not supply that it looks like that bolt and nut came from a hardware store Strength of a 6 if lucky the audi bolts are grade 10

I hope all understand hardware stores grades of bolts suck...... as well as the coatings..

The powder coating still should not do what it has unless when adjusting the person scraped the powder coating which it looks like they did.. mechanic got lazy.....

Just my thoughts.....


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## J Patterson (Apr 11, 2009)

*I used a Ford Truck U joint bolt. available at Advance Auto and I'm sure others--*

Sorry I don't have a better picture It was a perfect fit on the Gruven arm, and only requires slight mod to the holes in the OEM bracket. 










FWIW I have about 8000 miles, one year, and three or four track events on my Gruvens and have had none of the issues that are mentioned here. Southern climate with no salt obviously helps. I have lubed them at every oil change.


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

beeyond said:


> Gruven does he addressed this about a year ago.
> 
> http://gruvenparts.com/website/cart/cart.php?target=product&product_id=396&category_id=60
> 
> ...


The bolts that are on it are what were on when I got it. As far as all of the other rust that was all there when I got the car. My car is having a date with por15 soon enough. I know the mechanic who put them on and I saw them after he put them on and I know that he didnt do anything to weaken the finish. As for who did the alignment tho I cannot say.


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## GruvenParts.com (Jul 31, 2007)

MikekiM said:


> If people are looking for arms that aren't using heims, the arms from Stern use poly bushings instead. Less bare metal on their arms so less corrosion problems.


Those bushings will deflect quite a bit under hard cornering and the poly bushing will get eaten up in quick order if you drive very hard. To each his own, if you guys want that as an option, we'll make whatever you want.

And thanks for posting up, John. 










For those who dont know this particular TT, it will fill up your rear view on any track day, I promise. Not only a great car, a great driver. Glad your properly maintained control arms are doing just fine, even with the 2g corners you are probably pushing them into!! :thumbup:

By the way, the Corrado is now supercharged so we'll both have forced induction  But I better hone my driving skills before I see that blue TT again !!


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

GruvenParts.com said:


> Those bushings will deflect quite a bit under hard cornering and the poly bushing will get eaten up in quick order if you drive very hard. To each his own, if you guys want that as an option, we'll make whatever you want.
> 
> And thanks for posting up, John.
> 
> ...



Since you are getting technical, an arm with bushing end allows less horizontal degree of deflection than the spherical joint used in your arms. Your joints allow 28-30 degrees of deflection which is a lot more than the typical deflection allowed in a poly bushing. My knowledge on suspension allows 
me to firmly suggest that there isn't any substantial performance to be gained on the rear control arm from going to spherical over a bushing. 

I also know that TT and hate to brake it down to you but that car can not physically hold anywhere near 2G of lateral force. Not with the tires mr Patterson run or the level of preparation on his suspension(I am sure he can confirm my statement since John is a straight up kind of guy). I have one of the most elaborate suspension/tire ever put on a TT in the US, I have compared data with Istook performance on his full SCCA pro race car TT and his lateral Gs are less than mine and I 
don't average 2G of lateral force in a steady state skidpad. For your info, I run the stickiest Hoosier compound in 315 or 295 wide so I probably have the most rubber ever put under a TT. I suggest you double check your info and get back to us Paul :beer:!




Uploaded with ImageShack.us



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## GruvenParts.com (Jul 31, 2007)

Nice looking TT !

~2 g. Maybe closer to 1g. Would love to see you 2 go head to head either way. :beer:

I was speaking of defection inboard/outboard, not fwd aft. I wouldnt think the track arms are loaded fwd/aft, the trailing arms pick up that loading. 

The rubber bushing in that picture may work well initially but I have not seen them last for very long. Our heims are rated well over 10,000 lb radial load, there is no way the rubber bushing end of the control arm you showed will stand up to that.


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## beeyond (Oct 6, 2008)

*maddmax rust gruven*

maddd what springs do you have?? Love yellow koni's .... 
need your opinion on suspension set up yellow koni struts and shock adjustable / H & R racing springs / gruven adjustable rear down links / energy suspension dogbone / Defcon front control arm bushings with powerflex bushing / rear front control arms powerflex bushings / upper rear control arm KMAC adjustable camber bushings / front trailing arm powerflex bushings / neuspeed front sway bar 25 mm / neuspeed rear sway bar 22 mm / BFI motor mounts / powerflex transmission bushing
adding a strut bar inside car....
I would have liked VF engineering motor mounts I would like that change but OK for now Tires changing rims to 18 X 8.5 I saw your tire sizes I had that but that was on a G35 295/30/19 R &
265/35/19 I believe that was the mix I do not know how you fit those.... Now do you have a Haldex Race Controller? undecided on tire size ??? what would you suggest ?

gruven I know your an engineer and know your crap just remember that dumassses like me need more blanks filled in once you said not aft/ something it made sense I go sometimes really fast and I know what I meant to say but that is what sucks about email you may leave just one word out and everybody goes nuts.....

as far as the rust.... one get a different mechanic if he allowed himself to put bolts even close to that back on your car with not even asking you to change them..... I see they are the jazz blue I have black and have seen no problems..... Gruven could have had a bad batch and you really do not know until someone has it out in the elements as my front control arms are powder coated red for the last 2+ years and clean up nicely while my strut bar had to be redone go figure


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

beeyond said:


> maddd what springs do you have?? Love yellow koni's ....
> need your opinion on suspension set up yellow koni struts and shock adjustable / H & R racing springs / gruven adjustable rear down links / energy suspension dogbone / Defcon front control arm bushings with powerflex bushing / rear front control arms powerflex bushings / upper rear control arm KMAC adjustable camber bushings / front trailing arm powerflex bushings / neuspeed front sway bar 25 mm / neuspeed rear sway bar 22 mm / BFI motor mounts / powerflex transmission bushing
> adding a strut bar inside car....
> I would have liked VF engineering motor mounts I would like that change but OK for now Tires changing rims to 18 X 8.5 I saw your tire sizes I had that but that was on a G35 295/30/19 R &
> ...


I will gladly help you, just post your suspension question in the thread linked. It's a dedicated thread to TT suspension specifics, answering here would be jacking this thread too far and I'm not the OP.


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5197012-Let-s-talk-TT-suspension


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

beeyond said:


> maddd what springs do you have?? Love yellow koni's ....
> need your opinion on suspension set up yellow koni struts and shock adjustable / H & R racing springs / gruven adjustable rear down links / energy suspension dogbone / Defcon front control arm bushings with powerflex bushing / rear front control arms powerflex bushings / upper rear control arm KMAC adjustable camber bushings / front trailing arm powerflex bushings / neuspeed front sway bar 25 mm / neuspeed rear sway bar 22 mm / BFI motor mounts / powerflex transmission bushing
> adding a strut bar inside car....
> I would have liked VF engineering motor mounts I would like that change but OK for now Tires changing rims to 18 X 8.5 I saw your tire sizes I had that but that was on a G35 295/30/19 R &
> ...


WOW. Whatever it is your on..... get help.opcorn::screwy::what:


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## PLAYED TT (Oct 17, 2010)

warranty225cpe said:


> WOW. Whatever it is your on..... get help.opcorn::screwy::what:


X2.....or lay off the meth


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## beeyond (Oct 6, 2008)

*I get ahead of myself...*



warranty225cpe said:


> WOW. Whatever it is your on..... get help.opcorn::screwy::what:


thanks (maddmaxx) for the redirect I get ahead of myself and guys in this forum are not forgiving

warranty225cpe I see you post in QW as well as other forums....... I could understand a 

possible frustration as pertaining to my content on the post you are referring to... but you could

be a bit more pleasant about it........


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## murTTer (Jun 27, 2009)

beeyond said:


> thanks (maddmaxx) for the redirect I get ahead of myself and guys in this forum are not forgiving
> 
> warranty225cpe I see you post in QW as well as other forums....... I could understand a
> 
> ...


Welcome to the TT world. I have run into the same sorts of things, try to ask a question and get an honest answer and all you get is a smart ass remark. But there are some good ppl who give you some good feedback, just harder to come by.


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