# The B sucks in hot weather PERIOD



## Babie (Jul 22, 2012)

The B sucks in hot weather PERIOD. VERY DISAPPOINTED IN MY B TODAY.

Car hesitates, surges, and has no power in temps over 90. At 100 today, it smelled like rubber and the tires are like mush. I have the Conti tires, they feel terrible when their hot. The car feels like jello from the soft sidewalls.

I felt unsafe in the car today. Oil temp was 227. After I turned the car off, the fan ran for a long long time with the car off. I know it is suppose to do that.

My brother said the engine is in a to confined engine compartment. IT SHOULD HAVE AN OIL COOLER FROM THE FACTORY PERIOD. Subaru's are famous for their turbos and they all have oil coolers all.

THIS IS THE HOTTEST RUNNING CAR I HAVE EVER OWNED.


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## Jedidub (Oct 6, 2010)

Um it's a turbo


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## GTarr (May 17, 2012)

meh. It does seem kind of hot to me too, but it is my first turbocharged vehicle. I had my oil changed in May (before it was this stinking hot), and I'm thinking I'll have an oil analysis done in say October to see if I should change the oil then, or if it will be good until the scheduled change an May '14. I do notice a little bit of difference in power / throttle response, but to me, it's mostly due to the AC - turn off the AC and try again, and I think you'll find at least some of the surging / hesitating gone. It's like the AC takes what little low-end power there is, and exacerbates the turbo lag. Don't really know what to tell you about the tires (I'm not on stock tires). Except maybe check the tire pressure. I like mine up there, normally keep 'em at 35-38psi. My biggest complaint (besides just the fact that it's darn hot out there) is how much the AC affects MPG. It's not so bad on the highway, but stop and go plus AC is really bad.

GTarr


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## kaitisland (Dec 30, 2005)

I am experiencing the same high oil temps and surges, they're actually worse in this car than I ever experienced with my 1.8t. 

At least we have working AC in this heat.


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## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

Babie, since you've decided to get rid of the car I think any small negative thing encountered on your car will seem much worse than it really is. Your car is not 'unsafe.' You're just not happy with it.


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> Babie, since you've decided to get rid of the car I think any small negative thing encountered on your car will seem much worse than it really is. Your car is not 'unsafe.' You're just not happy with it.


It should be noted that there is a 'night and day' difference between the OEM intercooler and
the one from APR which has almost 3-times more capacity. Even in these super hot, humid 
conditions, my TB runs as if the weather was moderate. I realize the APR intercooler is a $1,000
add on but perhaps others with less expensive ones can chime in with positive results as well.


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## Cadenza_7o (Jan 23, 2001)

Yep... heat soak is the enemy of turbocharged cars, especially when you're caught in traffic. The Intercooler isn't cooling the air going to the intake. Once I was in traffic en route to Vegas in 105*F heat, the car felt as if it's lost the turbocharger!!! It was a 1.8NT (NoTurbo). 

Too bad VW didn't have Porsche do the high temp testing in Death Valley. 

http://www.ferfolia.net/james/porsches/large/


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

Jedidub said:


> Um it's a turbo


This, it doesn't "need" an oil cooler. Had my oil tested after a 1000 miles of hot days and running the a/c, it was fine. That was mobil 1 5w40 though. Oil temp gauge read 230-240 majority of that time as well. 

And again turbo engines run like poo in the heat


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

ridgemanron said:


> It should be noted that there is a 'night and day' difference between the OEM intercooler and
> the one from APR which has almost 3-times more capacity. Even in these super hot, humid
> conditions, my TB runs as if the weather was moderate. I realize the APR intercooler is a $1,000
> add on but perhaps others with less expensive ones can chime in with positive results as well.


APR's is definitely the largest core available but I'll just say my SPM has no problem keeping up. No heat soak issues to speak of


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## 1958 harry (Jul 12, 2013)

32 deg C heat here the last week my TDI has been running perfectly


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## eunos94 (Mar 17, 2002)

In my 2000 1.8T when it went over 90* the A/C couldn't keep up due all the glass super heating the interior and the enormous dash getting heat soaked. The engine suffered even worse. The boost fell off dramatically, she stumbled off the line and gas mileage fell into the teens. I hated driving her during the summer.

My 2012 2.5 has had none of those issues. Smooth as silk with no hesitation. Today it's 101* with what feels like 110% humidity and I'm cool comfy and chill with the A/C set on full cool and fan speed on 2. I love this f'ing car!


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## Babie (Jul 22, 2012)

interesting reading, i do love my car but as a girl in a crazy world, i would hate getting stranded in an overheated car. 

i drove like an old lady today so not to maybe, and i say maybe overheat. i guess i was paraoid.

my brother said the new 2.0 engine runs better in hot climate. SO GET THis, you would not take ur B to DEATH VALLEY.


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## Babie (Jul 22, 2012)

My brother is changing my oil to M1 0-40. He says it will run cooler and better with that oil.

Let ya all no what happens


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## Cadenza_7o (Jan 23, 2001)

Babie said:


> interesting reading, i do love my car but as a girl in a crazy world, i would hate getting stranded in an overheated car.
> 
> i drove like an old lady today so not to maybe, and i say maybe overheat. i guess i was paraoid.
> 
> my brother said the new 2.0 engine runs better in hot climate. SO GET THis, you would not take ur B to DEATH VALLEY.


Haha... been to Death Valley and survived... with AC intact. 

My NB is an oddball. 218k and still crawling, feels like a heavily sedated slug on hot days!!!


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## Vwguy026 (May 1, 2013)

Ill comment and say that during the past couple of days it's been 90-100 degrees and I haven't noticed a drop in performance when it's hot and using ac but I have an apr tune and idk if that helps but my temps are good and the performance is good, but Idk what's bad for a Turbo car as its my first turbo ever.


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

Well... that's your B (TB). Not mine. Mine has been running fine in the 100+ temps 100 miles a day with the air on in heavy traffic.


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## Dscot8r!2 (Dec 18, 2012)

Babie - I gotta say, it seems like you're looking for problems at this point. It's entirely possible the car just got a little heat soaked. It happens. It's a turbo charged car. If you drive it hard or in stop and go traffic with the A/C on full blast when it's 100 degrees, it's gonna get heat soaked. Every stock turbo charged car will, period. 

There are things you can do to make this more tolerable, and make the engine "breathe" better, but it all costs money. This car does not need an external oil cooler. It could use a larger capacity intercooler, better intake, and a downpipe to reduce back pressure a bit (this will cause a CEL without software). It'll also increase performance pretty dramatically.

All these things will help it "recover" quicker, but when it's hot it's hot. It was well into the 90s today in Atlanta with high humidity. My oil temp on my way home hovered right around 237, in stop and go traffic, but when I was able to pick up some speed in dropped into the low 220s within a couple minutes.


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## Stu3 (Jul 17, 2012)

2.5 owner reads post and smiles...... :laugh:


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## eunos94 (Mar 17, 2002)

Stu3 said:


> 2.5 owner reads post and smiles...... :laugh:


:thumbup::laugh:


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## Babie (Jul 22, 2012)

Dscot8r!2 said:


> Babie - I gotta say, it seems like you're looking for problems at this point. It's entirely possible the car just got a little heat soaked. It happens. It's a turbo charged car. If you drive it hard or in stop and go traffic with the A/C on full blast when it's 100 degrees, it's gonna get heat soaked. Every stock turbo charged car will, period.
> 
> There are things you can do to make this more tolerable, and make the engine "breathe" better, but it all costs money. This car does not need an external oil cooler. It could use a larger capacity intercooler, better intake, and a downpipe to reduce back pressure a bit (this will cause a CEL without software). It'll also increase performance pretty dramatically.
> 
> All these things will help it "recover" quicker, but when it's hot it's hot. It was well into the 90s today in Atlanta with high humidity. My oil temp on my way home hovered right around 237, in stop and go traffic, but when I was able to pick up some speed in dropped into the low 220s within a couple minutes.


nah i stray from problems. just want to make sure i will be safe. i had a flat on a another car a few years back, and this real creepy guy stopped and scared me. i have praised the car for running like a top before all the hot weather. 

ps what is heat soaked.


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## stainlineho (Aug 20, 2011)

Jedidub said:


> Um it's a turbo


My new Focus ST has none of these issues with oil temp with the Ecoboost. I agree with the OP that the Beetles do run a little too hot.

Babie, totally understand the whole female argument and fear of being stranded...it isn't fun being stranded. But I do think it is a reach for your brother to say the Beetle has a design flaw. Is he an engineer?


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## Babie (Jul 22, 2012)

stainlineho said:


> My new Focus ST has none of these issues with oil temp with the Ecoboost. I agree with the OP that the Beetles do run a little too hot.
> 
> Babie, totally understand the whole female argument and fear of being stranded...it isn't fun being stranded. But I do think it is a reach for your brother to say the Beetle has a design flaw. Is he an engineer?


yup, also the reason it runs hotter is because of emmissions. the new 2.0 is suppose to be a better engine...lets see...........

do u think the small exposed grille has something to do with it. 

if u remove the engine cover in the summer, would it help disapate engine heat better. it only there for looks. Fords don't use covers my bro said.


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## RedBugD (Jul 14, 2013)

TDI Beetle Convertible in hot and sticky weather 90+F
No mushy tires (Continentals). My car however is on the soft side to begin with.
Definitely not as smooth with the AC running.
I thought it was the DSG but everything smooths out when you switch off the AC and drop the top.
Also noticed the temp climbing on the oil to 227 or so but it cooled right down once I got moving.


As for the cooling with out the cover, no clue. The cover on the TDI is a noise deadener.

I do know that the engineering of the cars is done such that the plastic shields under the car and
in the engine bay are used to manage air flow and to some extent cooling.

As for oil coolers, I agree with the OP. If I lived in a warmer climate, I would insist on one.


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## Anthony_A (Feb 1, 2013)

Ill add my 2 cents. I have a '13 Turbo / 6 MT all stock. With the AC on I don't really notice much of a drop in power. What I do notice is a change in the torque. If I'm in the high end of 2nd gear in stop and go traffic I have to ease off the gas a lot easier to prevent the car from "jerking". The AC has been keeping the car cool though even in these humid 90+ days. I haven't had any issues with the AC not keeping the cabin cool. Oh, and the car as a VERY slightly rougher idle. But, what car is NOT affected when the AC compressor is on?

As far as the tires I have the factory Hankook's I have not noticed any change in performance due to heat.

The only thing that seems to be effected is the oil temp. In the winter (20s) the car ran around 210. Now in the dead of summer it's around 235-240. Is +30 degrees really much of a swing considering the swing in ambient? I have an appt. with VW to discuss the oil temp. Maybe 210-240 is in the normal operating range, who knows.

All in all. The car has been pretty good so far in this disgusting humid heat.. Which is more than I can say for this tablet, which has rebooted on me 2x while trying to write this.. :banghead:


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

Anthony_A said:


> Ill add my 2 cents. I have a '13 Turbo / 6 MT all stock. With the AC on I don't really notice much of a drop in power. What I do notice is a change in the torque. If I'm in the high end of 2nd gear in stop and go traffic I have to ease off the gas a lot easier to prevent the car from "jerking". The AC has been keeping the car cool though even in these humid 90+ days. I haven't had any issues with the AC not keeping the cabin cool. Oh, and the car as a VERY slightly rougher idle. But, what car is NOT affected when the AC compressor is on?
> 
> As far as the tires I have the factory Hankook's I have not noticed any change in performance due to heat.
> 
> ...


Check your water temp, I think vw is pulling something funny. My dash shows the water temp at 195 no matter how hot it gets or how hard I drive the car. So I hooked up vagcom, 210 when the dash was showing 195, something's not right


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

What people should understand about oil coolers is that in addition to having your car run
20 (or more) degrees cooler on a constant ongoing basis, your synthetic oil may not be 
affected adversely without the cooler, but your internal parts will be subjected to hotter
temperatures and earlier deterioration. What I also like about the INA Engineering Oil Cooler
Kit, in addition to it being a custom set-up for the Beetle, is that the oil filter sandwich comes
with an internal thermostat and thereby saves you from having to set up a remote one which
could be as much as $150. The thermostat ensures that the oil reaches proper operating temp
as quickly as possible after start-up to prevent excessive engine wear. Running an oil cooler
without a thermostat in non-racing conditions or in cooler weather will result in unsafe low oil
temps which can damage your engine. The thermostat prevents flow of oil to the cooler until
oil reaches a temp of 180 degrees fahrenheit.


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## Anthony_A (Feb 1, 2013)

drtechy said:


> Check your water temp, I think vw is pulling something funny. My dash shows the water temp at 195 no matter how hot it gets or how hard I drive the car. So I hooked up vagcom, 210 when the dash was showing 195, something's not right


yikes. interesting. ya mine always reads 194.


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## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

Anthony_A said:


> yikes. interesting. ya mine always reads 194.


Mine does too 

I think that gauge doesn't quite work too well. 

Regarding the OP. Turbo cars will always run a lot Hotter than Normally aspirated cars. An oil cooler will not address that issue. If you are running VW approved Synthetic oil then it can handle
the additional heat generated by the turbo. Heat soak is the issue. Once the engine gets HOT and 
it will especially in the summer and in more HUMID climates. The OEM intercooler can't cool down the air sufficiently which leads to higher temps at the intake which in turn leads to drastically reduced performance. The 2 things that would help this issue would be installing a larger core intercooler or a Meth injection system or both. The S3 intercooler is a popular choice but some modifications are necessary to make it fit. And it's not as efficient as some of the other FMIC's on the market. One of the BEST hands down is the APR Intercooler. It stands out from the rest with higher cooling efficiency, however it is also the priciest on the market even when it's on Sale. 
I also heard that SPM makes a nice intercooler for the 2012+ Beetle's. I am pretty sure any of the above mentioned IC's will be a lot more efficient than the stock OEM Intercooler. An Intercooler won't add Horsepower but it will let you keep the HP you have 
Meth injection is another option but it's a bit more maintenance than an intercooler since you have to make sure the system is operating properly and keep the tank filled which can be a hassle after a while. I like the Intercooler option. Install it and forget it. It will do the job it is suppose to without worrying about filling the Meth Tank. 
I am getting an APR intercooler installed on Tuesday and hope it will solve some of my Heat soak issues.


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## Babie (Jul 22, 2012)

IndyTTom said:


> Mine does too
> 
> I think that gauge doesn't quite work too well.
> 
> ...


How much is that intercourser. I mean intercooler, what ever.... I still feel I am getting screwed one way or another by car manufactures. Why don't they design a car or lets say over designing it for the max weather know in the area the car is sold. Do you really think the TB would be OK in Death Valley in 126...I think not.


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## Babie (Jul 22, 2012)

Anthony_A said:


> yikes. interesting. ya mine always reads 194.


Mine has said the same since day one no matter what the outside temp is


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## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

Babie said:


> How much is that intercourser. I mean intercooler, what ever.... I still feel I am getting screwed one way or another by car manufactures. Why don't they design a car or lets say over designing it for the max weather know in the area the car is sold. Do you really think the TB would be OK in Death Valley in 126...I think not.


 If it would be an Intercourser I think more people would buy one  The S3 Intercooler would be your least expensive unit but also the least efficient at around $399. I have seen them a little cheaper but not by much. Not sure what the SPM unit runs but the APR Intercooler is the most efficient and is a direct fit but also the most expensive for about $944 when it's on Sale. About a 100 bucks more when it's not. And Yes, I agree for that price it should come with a built in Intercourser  Never been to death valley but I am sure the Turbo Beetle would be fine as long as you don't try to race that Subaru next to you.


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## hech54 (Nov 1, 2008)

My Beetle bucked and jerked until it warmed up.....and all European Beetles have turbos.


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

Babie said:


> The B sucks in hot weather PERIOD.


... What you should have said was "My Turbo Beetle sucks PERIOD."


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

the beet said:


> ... What you should have said was "My Turbo Beetle sucks PERIOD."


Lol


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

... well, she made it sound like they all suck. I can't speak for the Turbos, 'cuz I don't have one. But other than the windows and windshield issues, I have had not major concerns and I am quite happy w/mine... 

All I can say is that the conversations on this forum don't bode well for VW and Turbos...


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## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

the beet said:


> All I can say is that the conversations on this forum don't bode well for VW and Turbos...


I don't think so; VW has offered turbo gas engines since at least 1997 (Passat 1.8t). And they've had this 2.0T engine in production since at least 2005 (might be earlier in Audi models). If there was some catastrophic problem with the engine it would have popped up already. 

With the exception of one person who had overheating issues on a _modified_ car, no one here has had a true problem. Babie says the car was sluggish. So are most turbos in any car on a 90+ degree day in traffic with the a/c on. In my opinion this whole topic feels like a lot of 'The sky is falling' Chicken Little syndrome. There is no problem but there's a bunch of squawking as if there was a problem.


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## RedBugD (Jul 14, 2013)

the beet said:


> ... well, she made it sound like they all suck. I can't speak for the Turbos, 'cuz I don't have one. But other than the windows and windshield issues, I have had not major concerns and I am quite happy w/mine...
> 
> All I can say is that the conversations on this forum don't bode well for VW and Turbos...


 All turbo charged cars suffer in the heat, regardless of manufacturer. As long as the oil
does not break down, there should not be any long term effects.


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## Carbon Steel (Sep 6, 2010)

Just returned form a 200 mile trip, 93 humid, humid degrees, set cruise on 70, A/C on two, then one, and cruised cool and smooth, no issues.


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## Babie (Jul 22, 2012)

RedBugD said:


> All turbo charged cars suffer in the heat, regardless of manufacturer. As long as the oil
> does not break down, there should not be any long term effects.


My brother said it all to me today, at the B turbo price point, u just expect a bit more, thats all. nuff said. 

I had an Audi with the same 2.0T and put 60k mile on it, went out west a few time in 90+ weather and I did not notice anything different in performace..oh well. i wont say more... also my brother is going to check my car for codes to see if there a problem.


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

I hope you are all correct on this. Especially since I'm hearing VW is going the all-turbo route. I really like my 2.5 and would trade it.


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## hech54 (Nov 1, 2008)

the beet said:


> I hope you are all correct on this. Especially since I'm hearing VW is going the all-turbo route. I really like my 2.5 and would trade it.


ALL European Beetles and Golf VIIs have turbos......ALL OF THEM. Same with the Scirocco, The Jetta, The Golf Plus has 1 non-turbo engine available, The Golf Wagon, The Passat has one non-turbo engine available, The Passat CC has one non-turbo engine available.....etc etc etc.


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## Dscot8r!2 (Dec 18, 2012)

Babie said:


> *ps what is heat soaked.*


Sorry Babie - Been away for a few days. I'll try to answer your question to the best of my ability. When the turbo spins it super accelerates air, this makes it hot. The intercooler's function is to cool the air before it goes into the intake manifold.

Cool air is more dense than hot air, and holds more oxygen. Therefore the cooler the air, the more efficiently the engine performs. On really hot days, the air going into your intake is very hot, and then gets even hotter as the turbo forces it into the intercooler. OEM intercoolers (for the most part) just aren't thick enough or efficient enough to combat excessive heat. Heat effects performance on all engines, but it is more pronounced on turbo charged cars.

A good aftermarket intercooler can drop intake temps by 40 degrees or more providing added or more sustainable performance. They typically will hold more air as well, thus giving a gain in power, but potentially creating lag.

There's a lot more detail involved, but I think that's a pretty good 30,000 foot view.


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## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

Babie said:


> My brother said it all to me today, at the B turbo price point, u just expect a bit more, thats all. nuff said.
> 
> I had an Audi with the same 2.0T and put 60k mile on it, went out west a few time in 90+ weather and I did not notice anything different in performace..oh well. i wont say more... also my brother is going to check my car for codes to see if there a problem.


Which Audi did you have? Was it a 2.0 FSi or Tsi motor? Did you have the Beetle tuned yet? APR Stage 1? If not do it! It's a totally different car afterwards. Performance wise it's like going from a bicycle to a motorcycle and it will definitely put a smile on your face.  
I only had my beetle a few months but so far I haven't had any issues with overheating or performance issues. Even prior to the APR tune the car ran great in 90+ Humid weather with AC blasting. Now after the APR Stage 1 Tune the car runs like a raped Ape. Best Bang for the Buck Performance upgrade for the Beetle. Right now APR is still having their Summer Sale. Get a Fully Loaded Tune for $599 plus installation cost. (That varies from dealer to dealer) Or you can just get the 91 or 93 Octane program for $549.00 but for $50.00 bucks more you get the ability to switch from stock to 91 to 93 and to either Valet mode or 100 Octane. Also you can clear codes, do a Throttle body adaption and activate a security lock out with a personal security code. If that is active no one will be able to steal your car even if they have the key. 
I hope you didn't pay top dollar for your beetle. I bought my Turbo Launch Edition for little over 16k
and granted it doesn't have a fancy radio or Automatic DSG transmission but it did come with cool side Turbo markings, Mojo Mats, 19 inch Tornado Wheels and Tires, HID/LED headlights, custom keyfob covers and even a trunk liner with cargo blocks. Sure it was a used car used by a VW excecutive and had only 1400 miles on it. The sticker said over 26k and I got it for almost 10k less than new. 
Regardless, if you are not happy with your beetle I would try to sell it and see what you can get out of it or if you want to keep it than identify exactly what you don't like about it and invest a few bucks to make it better. If performance is your only gripe I would invest in an APR Stage 1 tune and see if you like it better. If heatsoak is an issue (Performance drop once your car heats up) then a larger core intercooler will help that issue. I would start with the Tune first and see what you think. It is a totally different car afterwards. 

Good Luck!


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## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

the beet said:


> I hope you are all correct on this. Especially since I'm hearing VW is going the all-turbo route. I really like my 2.5 and would trade it.


It is true, in Europe they only offer Turbo engines for the 2013+ Beetle's. They are more efficient and a lot better on gas than the old and outdated 2.5 which has primarily been pushed on the 
American Public. Very rarely would a European choose an engine that gets lousy gas mileage at mediocre performance. Most Europeans drive Diesel powered cars since they get a lot more miles
per gallon and Diesel unlike here in the US is about $2.00 a Gallon cheaper. Keeping in mind that regular Gas is about $8-9 Dollars a Gallon depending where you are at in Europe. 
We don't even get a fraction of Engine choices or vehicle choices that they get in Europe. 
Here are the engine choices they have for the Beetle in Europe:

1.2 TSI 105 HP Petrol
1.6 TDI 105 HP Diesel
1.4 TSI 160 HP Petrol 
2.0 TDI 140 HP Diesel
2.0 TSI 210 HP Petrol 

Most of these Motors will never be introduced here in the US. You can actually find the 1.4Tsi motor in the New Jetta Hybrid along with an Electric motor but to be honest it isn't that impressive and in Motorweeks tests the Jetta 2.0 TDI got a lot better gas mileage than the 1.4 Jetta Hybrid. 
We Americans are brainwashed to shy away from Diesel so the Oil Sheiks can keep rolling in our Money. Personally, I would have bought a Turbo Diesel Beetle but I couldn't find one for the price I wanted to pay. Again, they keep the better gas mileage cars out of the reach of the every day consumer. Sure you can find Crappy Hybrids like a Prius fairly cheap but if you ever driven a Prius or a Honda Insight than you know these cars have ZERO Zilch Fun Factor. A TDI gets 40+ Gas Mileage (The long term Motorweek Test TDI Jetta got and average of 46.5 mpg) and it is still fun to drive. I rented a few 2.5 Jetta's in my travels and I was not impressed with the performance whatsoever and even on longer highway trips I never got more than about 29mpg, With an average closer to 23-24mpg. Which is way too low for these days. Granted my Turbo Beetle only gets around 31-33 mpg Highway and I average about 26 mpg with Premium fuel but it's a heck of a lot more fun to drive than the lack luster 2.5.


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## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

silverspeedbuggy said:


> I don't think so; VW has offered turbo gas engines since at least 1997 (Passat 1.8t). And they've had this 2.0T engine in production since at least 2005 (might be earlier in Audi models). If there was some catastrophic problem with the engine it would have popped up already.
> 
> With the exception of one person who had overheating issues on a _modified_ car, no one here has had a true problem. Babie says the car was sluggish. So are most turbos in any car on a 90+ degree day in traffic with the a/c on. In my opinion this whole topic feels like a lot of 'The sky is falling' Chicken Little syndrome. There is no problem but there's a bunch of squawking as if there was a problem.


Actually, the first 2.0T engines were not the same as in our cars today. The early 2.0T's were FSi 
engines which were later replaced with the 2.0T TSi engines. (Late in 2008) My brother was unfortunate enough to get one of the last Fsi engines in 2008. It's rated the same as far as performance goes but the intake is different and the main difference is that the Fsi Motor has the inferior Timing Belt instead of the much more durable Timing Chain in the Tsi motors. 
Overall the FSi motor will require more maintenance than the newer design Tsi motor. 
But yes, overall the 2.0Turbo motor has been around for a while and has been improved upon over the years. Starting in 2009 all 2.0T's where Tsi motors. 

I think Babie is just disappointed in the performance. Regardless of Turbo or not. The 2.0 is a 4 cylinder car and you can't expect V-8 Camaro Performance out of a car with less than a Third of the displacement of a Muscle car. Oh Sure you can add Big Turbos and add forged internals and make that little 2.0 scream but it does cost money to play with the Big Boys. 

I still think that a APR Stage 1 tune will definitely make her feel differently about the Beetle.


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## Babie (Jul 22, 2012)

OK, I will spring for an intercooler. do they need to tear my whole front end off to install it.

Ridge, come out, come out, where ever you are


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

Babie said:


> OK, I will spring for an intercooler. do they need to tear my whole front end off to install it.
> 
> Ridge, come out, come out, where ever you are


Yes the entire front end has to come off the car. It's not as hard as it sounds. I was able to swap mine in under 2 hours with one person helping me.


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## Babie (Jul 22, 2012)

Dscot8r!2 said:


> Sorry Babie - Been away for a few days. I'll try to answer your question to the best of my ability. When the turbo spins it super accelerates air, this makes it hot. The intercooler's function is to cool the air before it goes into the intake manifold.
> 
> Cool air is more dense than hot air, and holds more oxygen. Therefore the cooler the air, the more efficiently the engine performs. On really hot days, the air going into your intake is very hot, and then gets even hotter as the turbo forces it into the intercooler. OEM intercoolers (for the most part) just aren't thick enough or efficient enough to combat excessive heat. Heat effects performance on all engines, but it is more pronounced on turbo charged cars.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Have you heard of the waste gate getting stuck in hot weather making for a sluggish car?


----------



## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

If your wastegate was stuck you'd have much bigger problems, especially if you drove it hard.

PS. sorry for jumping in here, I just happen to be looking at this thread again lol


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

IndyTTom said:


> It is true, in Europe they only offer Turbo engines for the 2013+ Beetle's. They are more efficient and a lot better on gas than the old and outdated 2.5 which has primarily been pushed on the American Public.


Push On!!! 

No offense Indy, but you sound like a salesman for Turbo engines. I humbly disagree with your assessment that the turbos are any more efficient then the 2.5. This is my third non-turbo Beetle and I have not experienced any issues with any of them. I'm confident most Turbo owners can not honestly make the same statement. 

Also, there is less maintenance involved.

When compared to the MPG ratings of the turbos, my car achieves the same rating or better, and it's only about a second faster. 

Outdated... my a$$  

Maybe VW should get out of the Turbo business....


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)




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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

... again, not looking to start a Turbo War, but Indy drew first blood with his insulting comment on 2.5L.


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## eunos94 (Mar 17, 2002)

the beet said:


> ... again, not looking to start a Turbo War, but Indy drew first blood with his insulting comment on 2.5L.


My mother, sister and youngest niece just drove from Northeast, Ohio to Nashville, TN for a wedding in my mother's 2013 JSW. With my lead footed sister behind the wheel for the bulk of the trip and the cruise set at 85 mph for the vast majority of that time they averaged a very respectable 31.9mpg (measured by the pump and math not via the MFD). That's with the A/C running in ultra humid 100* heat. With my 74 year old mother doing her daily chores she averages over 35mpg with a mix of city/hwy. 

She pulled similar numbers with her 2011 JSW that she leased and impressed me so much that I decided to forgo the TSI and give the 2.5 a try instead. I couldn't be happier. Really I could NOT be happier with my choice. I will admit I miss having the ability to "chip it and dip it in the 94 octane pool of power" but I don't miss the terrible city mileage, heat soak, constant maintenance, blown vacuum lines and other heat related issues that cause all the little things to wear out so freaking fast.

What I do love is that my 2.5 runs virtually the same regardless of outside temps, I get over 30mpg even in town, the 2.5 makes great noises under WOT and there compared to the TSI/1.8T is virtually maintenance free (aside from oil changes there isn't anything to do for 100,000 miles).

All that and it's CHEAPER? Ya I couldn't be happier with my choice! :heart:


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## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

the beet said:


> Push On!!!
> 
> No offense Indy, but you sound like a salesman for Turbo engines. I humbly disagree with your assessment that the turbos are any more efficient then the 2.5. This is my third non-turbo Beetle and I have not experienced any issues with any of them. I'm confident most Turbo owners can not honestly make the same statement.
> 
> ...


I personally didn't mean that the 2.0 Turbo is more efficient than the 2.5. Most Europeans wouldn't buy either one of those two engines since they are both not very fuel efficient and cost a lot more in taxes and insurance. However, VW isn't going out of the Turbo business nor are other car makers. Quite on the contrary more and more are jumping on the band wagon. Just look at Ford and their Ecoboost engines. Turbocharging is a way to produce more performance from a smaller displacement engine which translates in higher fuel economy. VW/Audi Group (VAG) has been in the Turbo business a very long time and with their high performance cars like the Lamborghini or Audi R8 line of cars they will continue to do so. However, the every day consumer benefits the most since the 1.2 and 1.4 Tsi motors both get over 40mpg and their smaller 1.6 TDi well over 50 mpg. Those are the engines I was referring to when I meant more efficient. Unfortunately, we will probably never see those engines offered here in the US. Along with VW vehicles like the VW UP, the POLO, The LUPO, The Scirocco etc... The US public has to be contend with the engine and vehicle choices that are forced upon us.


----------



## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

eunos94 said:


> My mother, sister and youngest niece just drove from Northeast, Ohio to Nashville, TN for a wedding in my mother's 2013 JSW. With my lead footed sister behind the wheel for the bulk of the trip and the cruise set at 85 mph for the vast majority of that time they averaged a very respectable 31.9mpg (measured by the pump and math not via the MFD). That's with the A/C running in ultra humid 100* heat. With my 74 year old mother doing her daily chores she averages over 35mpg with a mix of city/hwy.
> 
> She pulled similar numbers with her 2011 JSW that she leased and impressed me so much that I decided to forgo the TSI and give the 2.5 a try instead. I couldn't be happier. Really I could NOT be happier with my choice. I will admit I miss having the ability to "chip it and dip it in the 94 octane pool of power" but I don't miss the terrible city mileage, heat soak, constant maintenance, blown vacuum lines and other heat related issues that cause all the little things to wear out so freaking fast.
> 
> ...


I am very happy that you like your 2.5's They are very durable engines but they are not without flaws. Keep an eye out on the PVC diaphragm on top of your valve cover. It is prone to premature failure and when it does you will know it. If it goes the only way to fix it is to replace the entire valve cover since VW doesn't sell just that diaphragm part. Other than that I agree it's a pretty easy car to maintain. Keep up with your oil changes and enjoy driving it. 
I personally enjoy the performance of a Turbo Charged engine. Prior to this 2012 I had a 2000 VW Beetle 1.8 Turbo and it was a great little car. Sold it at 165k miles earlier this year and besides a new battery, new tires and replacing some of the worn out factory vacuum lines it never needed a thing. If you take care of a car it will take care of you. I do most of my own maintenance and with any luck this 2012 will perform and last as long as my trusted 2000. :thumbup:


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

eunos94 said:


> My mother, sister and youngest niece just drove from Northeast, Ohio to Nashville, TN for a wedding in my mother's 2013 JSW. With my lead footed sister behind the wheel for the bulk of the trip and the cruise set at 85 mph for the vast majority of that time they averaged a very respectable 31.9mpg (measured by the pump and math not via the MFD). That's with the A/C running in ultra humid 100* heat. With my 74 year old mother doing her daily chores she averages over 35mpg with a mix of city/hwy.
> 
> She pulled similar numbers with her 2011 JSW that she leased and impressed me so much that I decided to forgo the TSI and give the 2.5 a try instead. I couldn't be happier. Really I could NOT be happier with my choice. I will admit I miss having the ability to "chip it and dip it in the 94 octane pool of power" but I don't miss the terrible city mileage, heat soak, constant maintenance, blown vacuum lines and other heat related issues that cause all the little things to wear out so freaking fast.
> 
> ...


Sounds good, but I do not understand half of the things you are talking about: 

JSW?
WOT?
chip/dip?


----------



## Cadenza_7o (Jan 23, 2001)

the beet said:


> Originally Posted by IndyTTom:
> _It is true, in Europe they only offer Turbo *engines* for the 2013+ Beetle's. They are more efficient and a lot better on gas than the old and outdated 2.5 which has primarily been pushed on the American Public._
> 
> +++++++++++++
> ...


In Europe or at least in Germany, turbocharged engines for the Beetle goes down to 1.2 liter. From 1.8 and lower, they should be more efficient than the 2.5L. 

www.volkswagen.de

Me... I really want a TDI but will probably end up with a 2.5L for reasons of maintenance. Currently driving an APR'ed 1.8T NB and a Mini 1.6L supercharged, with NB at 25.5mpg average and the Mini at 27.8mpg. 

Must say though, the NA 2.5L 4-banger in '87 Porsche 944S is way smoother and torquey-er than VW 2.5L. Must be the counter-rotating balance shafts at work.


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## hech54 (Nov 1, 2008)

the beet said:


> Outdated... my a$$
> 
> Maybe VW should get out of the Turbo business....


Oh my....where to begin?
Every American on the planet (including me here in Germany) add up to about 5% of the world's population. And having grown up in America, seeing the mediocre amount of VW on the roads, what kind of sales percentage do you think America is in regards to VW's global(international) sales?
I know....the word "international" is almost foreign to many Americans....but the word DOES exist and there is a world out there beyond the borders.
Having said that....Europeans do not know of a 2.5 liter VW engine. They haven't seen that thing for about 5-10 years and even then it was only available in large vans....and it had a turbo stuck on it. I rented one and drove one about 8 years ago.
That ridiculous 2.5l engine is basically an "America Only" engine. Why is that?
The battle-cry of MANY Americans of the past has not died out....the "I ain't buyin' no Kraut/Rice Burner" mantra is still there....and the smallest engine Americans will tolerate is still 1.6 liters.....anything smaller is immediately passed over as a toy or a joke.

The rest of the world knows almost NOTHING of a 2.5 liter VW engine. Technology marches on. Worldwide 90% or more of present(new) Volkswagen cars and trucks have turbocharged engines.....the remaining 10% are V6s, V8s and American VWs.

Maybe Americans should get out of the "I ain't buyin' no Kraut/Rice Burner" business.

Worldwide/International Engine Awards:
http://www.carscoops.com/2013/06/2013-international-engine-of-year.html
http://www.carscoops.com/2012/06/ford-10-liter-ecoboost-wins-2012.htm

Try to find a non-turbo engine in there.


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## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

Cadenza_7o said:


> [Me... I really want a TDI but will probably end up with a 2.5L for reasons of maintenance. Currently driving an APR'ed 1.8T NB and a Mini 1.6L supercharged, with NB at 25.5mpg average and the Mini at 27.8mpg.
> Must say though, the NA 2.5L 4-banger in '87 Porsche 944S is way smoother and torquey-er than VW 2.5L. Must be the counter-rotating balance shafts at work.


I really wanted a TDI as well. The reason I bought the 2.0Tsi was price. 3 months ago when I looked at Beetle's I test drove the 2013 2.0Tdi and it has great torque off the line. It can keep up with the Tsi until about 40mph then the Tsi walks away from it. But you can't beat the efficiency of the VW Turbo Diesel. Motorweek tested the 2.0Tdi which is Way underrated from the factory. They got an average of 46.5 mpg in mixed city and highway driving which was way better than the Jetta Hybrid that they tested which only got about 37mpg average. Of course they say it was cold when they did their tests and that the Hybrid could do better when the weather warms up a bit. 

As far as maintenance goes there are less parts that could fail in a Diesel than any of the Petrol engines. The two major parts that tend to fail on a Diesel is the Injection pump and the Turbo. 
However, that doesn't usually happen until well over 200k miles. Diesel engines last a lot longer than Petrol engines. I have a friend with a 1999 Jetta Tdi with over 400k miles on it. She did have the Turbo replaced at 250k miles and that was the only major repair in 10+ years. 
Diesels like to be driven. If you do a lot of stop and go driving make sure you clean your EGR valve because it can get dirty. Other than that just change the oil and drive the car. 700 miles per tank isn't unusual. The reason for me was money when I purchased my beetle. The 2013 Turbo Beetle was over 26k or I could buy a slightly used 2012 Turbo Launch Edition for just over 16k. 
I think it will take me a while to make up for the 10 Grand I saved in gas savings.


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## Cadenza_7o (Jan 23, 2001)

All valid points there, Indy. 

My concern is the HPFP, DSG (SoCal driving) and to a lesser degree, the DPF. Though failure rate is low, except for the DPF, the DSG and HPFP are way too expensive once out of warranty. And as you said, it takes a long time recoup the the cost.


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## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

the beet said:


> Sounds good, but I do not understand half of the things you are talking about:
> 
> JSW?
> WOT?
> chip/dip?


Jetta JSW is a Jetta Sport wagon.
WOT = Wide Open Throttle.
Chip/dip.= Turbo Tune. An easy tune gives the Turbo engine a 50+ HP Boost and almost 100lbs of Torque increase. Suppose to increase gas mileage as well. But to be honest I haven't seen that yet  Still It makes those stock numbers look weak and you can easily surprise a few Mustang drivers.


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

IndyTTom said:


> Jetta JSW is a Jetta Sport wagon.
> WOT = Wide Open Throttle.
> Chip/dip.= Turbo Tune. An easy tune gives the Turbo engine a 50+ HP Boost and almost 100lbs of Torque increase. Suppose to increase gas mileage as well. But to be honest I haven't seen that yet  Still It makes those stock numbers look weak and you can easily surprise a few Mustang drivers.


Thanks for the clarification Indy...


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

hech54 said:


> Oh my....where to begin?
> Every American on the planet (including me here in Germany) add up to about 5% of the world's population. And having grown up in America, seeing the mediocre amount of VW on the roads, what kind of sales percentage do you think America is in regards to VW's global(international) sales?
> I know....the word "international" is almost foreign to many Americans....but the word DOES exist and there is a world out there beyond the borders.
> Having said that....Europeans do not know of a 2.5 liter VW engine. They haven't seen that thing for about 5-10 years and even then it was only available in large vans....and it had a turbo stuck on it. I rented one and drove one about 8 years ago.
> ...


Nice... but does your definition of moving on mean smaller cars like SmartCars and Fiat 500s? :facepalm:


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## Babie (Jul 22, 2012)

drtechy said:


> Yes the entire front end has to come off the car. It's not as hard as it sounds. I was able to swap mine in under 2 hours with one person helping me.


Some should post a diy video somehere


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## Babie (Jul 22, 2012)

drtechy said:


> If your wastegate was stuck you'd have much bigger problems, especially if you drove it hard.
> 
> PS. sorry for jumping in here, I just happen to be looking at this thread again lol


No problem doc THANKS


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## hech54 (Nov 1, 2008)

the beet said:


> Nice... but does your definition of moving on mean smaller cars like SmartCars and Fiat 500s? :facepalm:


Yes it does:
2001 Ford F-150 Crash Test
http://youtu.be/U6Ej9bJJZUk

2012 Fiat 500 Crash test
http://youtu.be/EfFW3DZpC74

2012 Volkswagen UP Crash test
http://youtu.be/GtfxSm8018c

Don't tell me....these videos are fakes or rigged?
:facepalm:

This reminds me of that internet photo floating around "Would you buy a SMART car?" which shows a car completely mashed....buy a dump truck(?) I believe. It's a shame people are too uninformed(see stupid) to know or notice that the car in the photo has 4 lug nuts....SMART cars have 3 lug nuts. Doesn't stop stupid people from forwarding the picture and stupid people from believing it and forwarding it again.
Sort of like this picture:
http://forum.smartcanucks.ca/attach...motivational-posters-poster-funny-posters.jpg

:screwy:

At least we have found and identified one of the reasons why VW is afraid to bring new technology to America.....YOU.
:laugh:


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## Isola (Mar 31, 2013)

I have the 160HP 118TSI engine in my Beetle and I love it! I wish I could put one of them into my old Beetle too!

Fiat 500s are brilliant cars too for what it's worth. My Beetle was in a shoot out with a 500 Abarth but the Beetle won out because it has a bigger trunk.

And that picture of car vs. truck... I don't care what car you were in... you weren't walking away from that at all. Small cars vs. big cars in terms of safety these days is a pointless conversation. They all have to meet the same safety tests.


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## 1958 harry (Jul 12, 2013)

We've never had the 2.5 in the UK, the mk1 bug stuck with the old 2.0 8v engine, and from launch we have been able to get:

1.2 TSI
1.4TSI
2.0 TSI
1.6 TDI Bluemotion
2.0 TDI


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

hech54 said:


> Yes it does:
> 2001 Ford F-150 Crash Test
> http://youtu.be/U6Ej9bJJZUk
> 
> ...


Well... That's why I enjoy living in the good 'ol USA. Choices! You see, that's what makes this country great. We aren't force fed some government regulations and excuses BS, that really doesn't add up to much but more money in the pockets of the government (at least for the time being, but it's unfortunately going in that direction). I mean it does happen here, don't get me wrong, but we still have more choices/freedoms. 

But you really haven't made a strong case for the turbos. They are in fact not more fuel efficient, not safer to drive, cost more up-front and to maintain, break down more often, more parts, etc. etc. Unless that is the idea... purchase a car, drive it, throw it away. What about all of that solid waste filling up the land-fills??? You see, there are 2 sides to every argument.

I think they are trying to force feed you the turbo idea because the other option, the more reliable one, will last a lot longer. And we all know the government wants you to trade in that old gas guzzler for a brand new one (that way they get their cut, at both ends). 

In a country where most or all of the vehicles are small, like the Polo, 500, or Smart, that may work. 

It's OK. We don't have to agree on this one.


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

the beet said:


> We aren't force fed some government regulations and excuses BS, that really doesn't add up to much but more money in the pockets of the government (at least for the time being, but it's unfortunately going in that direction). I mean it does happen here, don't get me wrong, but we still have more choices/freedoms.


What I should have said was:"That's what used to make this country great". We are unfortunately, gradually going down the same road...


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## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

drtechy said:


> Yes the entire front end has to come off the car. It's not as hard as it sounds. I was able to swap mine in under 2 hours with one person helping me.


Which Intercooler did you go with? I am thinking of the APR Intercooler. I know it's pricey but it also has the largest core and capacity and claims no lag.


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

the beet said:


> Well... That's why I enjoy living in the good 'ol USA. Choices! You see, that's what makes this country great. We aren't force fed some government regulations and excuses BS, that really doesn't add up to much but more money in the pockets of the government (at least for the time being, but it's unfortunately going in that direction). I mean it does happen here, don't get me wrong, but we still have more choices/freedoms.
> 
> But you really haven't made a strong case for the turbos. They are in fact not more fuel efficient, not safer to drive, cost more up-front and to maintain, break down more often, more parts, etc. etc. Unless that is the idea... purchase a car, drive it, throw it away. What about all of that solid waste filling up the land-fills??? You see, there are 2 sides to every argument.
> 
> ...


I really don't get how you say that they aren't more fuel efficient. Why do you think Ford changed its standard F-150 engine from a V8 to a twin turbo V6? Same power (well technically more power actually), more gas mileage, idk that sounds pretty fuel efficient to me. 



IndyTTom said:


> Which Intercooler did you go with? I am thinking of the APR Intercooler. I know it's pricey but it also has the largest core and capacity and claims no lag.


I have the V1 SPM Intercooler. I haven't had any heat soak issues, even through this terrible heat wave we've had. I'm sure the APR one is better if you go big turbo, but for the stock turbo it seems fine.


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## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

Isola said:


> I have the 160HP 118TSI engine in my Beetle and I love it! I wish I could put one of them into my old Beetle too!
> 
> Fiat 500s are brilliant cars too for what it's worth. My Beetle was in a shoot out with a 500 Abarth but the Beetle won out because it has a bigger trunk.
> 
> And that picture of car vs. truck... I don't care what car you were in... you weren't walking away from that at all. Small cars vs. big cars in terms of safety these days is a pointless conversation. They all have to meet the same safety tests.


So does the bigger trunk make the Beetle go faster  I personally don't like the looks of the Fiat 500. If I had to chose between a Fiat 500 and a Smart Car I would take the Smart.  Have a friend in Germany that has a SMART Barabus (Barabus is a designer kinda like Abarth is for the Fiat) and it's a fun little car. 

I agree if you go up against a Dump Truck or any kind of Semi you are going to loose regardless what car you drive. The SMART actually does have a complete egg shaped Steel roll cage built in and does pretty well in 70mph crash tests vs other cars. 

One of the Turbo charged Cars I would like to see here is the Renault Megane RS. It would give the GTi a run for it's money. But like so many other European car makers we will never see Renault, Peugeot, SEAT, Citroen, Alpha Romeo, Lancia... etc here in the states. 

I guess we prefer the KIA's and the Hyundai's


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## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

drtechy said:


> I have the V1 SPM Intercooler. I haven't had any heat soak issues, even through this terrible heat wave we've had. I'm sure the APR one is better if you go big turbo, but for the stock turbo it seems fine.


I am not ever going Big Turbo so I think the SPM Intercooler will be fine. Any fitment issues? 
How much is that bad boy? Can you disassemble your front end and do a DIY  
Yeah, right. Just kidding...


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## hech54 (Nov 1, 2008)

the beet said:


> Well... That's why I enjoy living in the good 'ol USA. Choices! You see, that's what makes this country great. We aren't force fed some government regulations and excuses BS, that really doesn't add up to much but more money in the pockets of the government (at least for the time being, but it's unfortunately going in that direction). I mean it does happen here, don't get me wrong, but we still have more choices/freedoms.


How many years/decades has it been since VW has had to change specs on US-bound Volkswagens?
I got news for you....it's been a HELL of a lot longer than Obama has been in office.(Yes....Obama's tenure is what you are eluding to....don't lie).



the beet said:


> But you really haven't made a strong case for the turbos. They are in fact not more fuel efficient, not safer to drive, cost more up-front and to maintain, break down more often, more parts, etc. etc. Unless that is the idea... purchase a car, drive it, throw it away. What about all of that solid waste filling up the land-fills??? You see, there are 2 sides to every argument.


Are you still trying to sneak this büllßhit by thinking you won't be challenged on it? One nitwit modifies his Beetle, screws it up, whines like a little girl, blames everyone else for his troubles, storms off in a huff... and that means 95% of new, stock turbocharged Volkswagens worldwide are now "lesser" vehicles. The United States of America amounts to about 6.5% of Volkswagen's worldwide(there's that word again....Google it if you need to) sales, and you are the expert on the reliability and "running costs" of all Volkswagens sold all over the world? I think NOT.

Volkswagen sold 2,142,536 vehicles worldwide in 2013(Jan. to March)....The United States accounts for 142,755 sales...do the math. Unfortunately Americans know almost NOTHING about Volkswagen vehicles....they get (I'm guessing) 1/10th of the engine choices and about half of the model choices.


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

drtechy said:


> I really don't get how you say that they aren't more fuel efficient.


Just see my earlier posts with the attached images from the VW website. It shows the MPG ratings for both.


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

hech54 said:


> How many years/decades has it been since VW has had to change specs on US-bound Volkswagens?
> I got news for you....it's been a HELL of a lot longer than Obama has been in office.(Yes....Obama's tenure is what you are eluding to....don't lie).
> 
> 
> ...


But those are the only choices worth getting. Besides, Babie is a she.  Now take a deep breath and RELAX...


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## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

Here is one VW I wouldn't mind seeing on the American Roads. 

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...not-a-concept-car-2013-geneva-motor-show.html

261 mpg and it looks cool doing it :thumbup: 

eace::heart:eace:


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

IndyTTom said:


> Here is one VW I wouldn't mind seeing on the American Roads.
> 
> http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...not-a-concept-car-2013-geneva-motor-show.html
> 
> ...


Nice! Have you seen the price tag? there are a lot more choices for that price...


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## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

the beet said:


> Nice! Have you seen the price tag? there are a lot more choices for that price...


LOL, I know. It's only a very limited production. Only 250 will be made and you won't break any speed records in that car. But 261 mpg is pretty cool. 

I did own a Honda Insight for about 6 months. Hated that thing. Sure it got about 44 mpg but it was the most UN-FUN car there is in the world. 

If I did have the money I would hands down buy this puppy:

http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear...nd_car_of_the_year_tesla_model_s/viewall.html

All Electric. Tesla Model S 0 to 60mph in 4 seconds Depending on Battery installed you get a range of up to 265 miles with the equivalent of up to 118mpg-e. With the AC blasting and stereo running etc. you may actually only average 74.5 mpg-e which is still very nice for a great looking car that gives you instant torque at the press of the Gas em.. Electric Pedal  
And all that starting at only $58k Dollars which is cheaper than a lot of high end cars. 

I actually see a couple of those hooked up to the Plug in Only Parking Spaces at one of our upscale
malls.


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

IndyTTom said:


> LOL, I know. It's only a very limited production. Only 250 will be made and you won't break any speed records in that car. But 261 mpg is pretty cool.
> 
> I did own a Honda Insight for about 6 months. Hated that thing. Sure it got about 44 mpg but it was the most UN-FUN car there is in the world.
> 
> ...


I too like the Tesla, but what about the Fisker Karma? (now we have gone WAAAAAAAaaaaa off topic).


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## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

the beet said:


> I too like the Tesla, but what about the Fisker Karma? (now we have gone WAAAAAAAaaaaa off topic).


Yeah, I looked at those but I personally don't like the shape of it. Something is just off. Besides that, Justin "The Dork" Bieber owns one and that is the Best reason never to own one 
Also it's not an "All Electric" vehicle but a Hybrid which uses the Chevy Volt's type of engine.
Not something I want to spend 100+ K on. 

Oh.... Yeah, way of topic. 

Babie...... If you lack performance.... Get an APR Stage 1 tune!!!!!!!!!!! It is hands down the Best BANG for the BUCK performance upgrade for the Beetle or any TSi 2.0 Turbo motor. Nothing else you do will even come close. If you Hurry you can get in on the APR Summer Sale. It ends on August 4th and will save you some major bucks on the fully loaded tune. Cool thing is you can switch back to stock mode with a few pushes on your Cruise control stalk. It will significantly increase your HP but more importantly your torque. 
Another item I would recommend is the USP Traction Control kit. They left out the Traction control disable feature in the 2012+ Beetle's. You may think, no big deal. but it is a Big deal if you get on it off the line and the wheels even slightly break loose. The traction control will drastically reduce performance. With the APR tune you do want the option of being able to turn it off. 
USP sells a Plug and Pray.. I mean Play harness and comes with a button that easily installs in your center console. I just got mine installed. There is a definite difference off the line up to about 40mph. I usually always keep my Traction control on but if you do want to get on it especially off the line you do want to turn it off and feel the difference. 

:thumbup::thumbup:


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

the beet said:


> Just see my earlier posts with the attached images from the VW website. It shows the MPG ratings for both.


Ratings don't mean ****. They rate my motor at 29mpg, I steadily see 30-35mpg even with the a/c on. There are way too many factors to tell, but I'll tell you this, if my 2.0 didn't have a turbo my gas mileage would take a huge fall because I would have to put my foot further down to maintain the same speed due to the lack of power. Hence when you have a turbo, you have more power and can maintain speed without needing to put your foot down as far.


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## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

drtechy said:


> Ratings don't mean ****. They rate my motor at 29mpg, I steadily see 30-35mpg even with the a/c on. There are way too many factors to tell, but I'll tell you this, if my 2.0 didn't have a turbo my gas mileage would take a huge fall because I would have to put my foot further down to maintain the same speed due to the lack of power. *Hence when you have a turbo, you have more power and can maintain speed without needing to put your foot down as far.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> But it is soooo much more FUN if you do  My gas mileage has taken a bit of a hit since my tune. I believe that is because of my restless heavy foot syndrome and the smile it puts on my face every time my foot twitches.
> 
> I get about 26.5 mpg average city and Highway driving. About 32mpgs on longer trips all highway.


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

drtechy said:


> Ratings don't mean ****. They rate my motor at 29mpg, I steadily see 30-35mpg even with the a/c on. There are way too many factors to tell, but I'll tell you this, if my 2.0 didn't have a turbo my gas mileage would take a huge fall because I would have to put my foot further down to maintain the same speed due to the lack of power. Hence when you have a turbo, you have more power and can maintain speed without needing to put your foot down as far.


I appreciate where you are coming from. I have conducted some of my own measurements where MPH is concerned and I'm getting around 30 mpg, however, I do drive 100 miles a day and most of my traffic is heavy/bumper-to-bumper. So, I may get better on a clean trip. Also, my 2.5 in-line 5 has plenty of power. I drove both turbo and non-turbo. 

Bottom line, it is my daily driver and I have no need nor desire to have a turbo. I have another toy for my fun driving.


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## Isola (Mar 31, 2013)

IndyTTom said:


> So does the bigger trunk make the Beetle go faster


Nope. The Fiat goes harder and faster because it's so light with the same power output. Practicality wise though, the Bug won out. Probably good in the long run... I would have used more tyres in the Fiat


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## hech54 (Nov 1, 2008)

the beet said:


> But those are the only choices worth getting. Besides, Babie is a she.  Now take a deep breath and RELAX...


What?
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6088583-Beetle-Gone


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## 1958 harry (Jul 12, 2013)

Or you could get a TDI, get it remapped and a few other mods and have similar power/grin factor with decent MPG ;-)


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

1958 harry said:


> Or you could get a TDI, get it remapped and a few other mods and have similar power/grin factor with decent MPG ;-)


Good luck getting it to pass emissions though, one guy in my town has a stage 2 tdi, he has to put his stock downpipe back on every year and put the stock tune back on to pass emissions.


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## 1958 harry (Jul 12, 2013)

Not a problem for us in the UK  all our emissions check on a diesel is the particulates and a visual smoke test.


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## sethdude (Jun 27, 2012)

Owning a 2012 GTI 6MT and a 2012 Beetle 2.5 6AT, I can tell you that both are amazing, fun, and reliable cars. That said, the 2.5 never suffers in the heat (even though it's a much bigger engine in the same space than your 2.0T), whereas the GTI does get heat soaked when sitting still on hot days. It's not a big deal. The trade is when you take your Turbo to high-elevation, and you don't lose power while the NA cars are oxygen starved.

It's just a characteristic of a turbocharged engine. It's going to be the same in any turbo car, regardless of who makes it. Bigger ICs and oil coolers will help, but only when the car is moving. In traffic, you're heat soaking.


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

IndyTTom said:


> Which Intercooler did you go with? I am thinking of the APR Intercooler. I know it's pricey but it also has the largest core and capacity and claims no lag.


Two points ! The APR Intercooler is your best bet at avoiding 'heat soak' sluggishness, even
when the humidity is super-high. When you remove the front bumper, be extra careful not to
force the clips, for if they break, you cannot just replace them. VW made sure you'd have to
get a complete bumper if the clips are broken off.


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## Babie (Jul 22, 2012)

ridgemanron said:


> Two points ! The APR Intercooler is your best bet at avoiding 'heat soak' sluggishness, even
> when the humidity is super-high. When you remove the front bumper, be extra careful not to
> force the clips, for if they break, you cannot just replace them. VW made sure you'd have to
> get a complete bumper if the clips are broken off.


you have got to be kidding. yuck


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## grahamwright1 (Jun 26, 2012)

ridgemanron said:


> Two points ! The APR Intercooler is your best bet at avoiding 'heat soak' sluggishness, even
> when the humidity is super-high. When you remove the front bumper, be extra careful not to
> force the clips, for if they break, you cannot just replace them. VW made sure you'd have to
> get a complete bumper if the clips are broken off.


Can you explain the best way to remove the bumper? I've got an APR intercooler sitting in a box in my garage, waiting for me to tackle this and I'd like any hints you might have


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

grahamwright1 said:


> Can you explain the best way to remove the bumper? I've got an APR intercooler sitting in a box in my garage, waiting for me to tackle this and I'd like any hints you might have


Even if you decide to do the install yourself, I would seriously consider having a professional
body shop do the removal. They should have a specific tool that gives them the ability to do the
removal. My guy had one of his people controlling the level of the bumper on the opposite side
to keep the bumper horizontally straight and not allow any pressure to affect the still undone
clip when the first one came free and the bumper changed position on the side that was being
worked on. Keep in mind that the complete bumper and clips were at the mercy of the installers
in Puebla and hopefully they didn't force it into position to begin with or were faced by a not so
perfect fit due to the manufactured piece being 'off' a bit in the area of the clips and accepted
a slightly 'off' install as being 'good enough'. I would get a schematic drawing of the bumper 
from your VW parts guy and hopefully you can guide the removers of the piece with regard to
what specific kind of clip they are dealing with.....and what exact direction the clips open. 
Like I said, you can't get the clips separate from the bumper in the event you wanted to 
examine them closely, with that only being possible if you had a separate bumper handy.

P.S. - Just a thought, but is it possible someone on Youtube did a video on the removal of
bumper from preferably a 2012/13 Beetle or if not, a Golf, GTI, Golf R ?


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## Babie (Jul 22, 2012)

http://youtu.be/QlJcJ7vPHQs

if this anything is anything like it, my bro wont do it for me. Also i may end up with a rattle.


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## ridgemanron (Sep 27, 2011)

Babie said:


> http://youtu.be/QlJcJ7vPHQs
> 
> if this anything is anything like it, my bro wont do it for me. Also i may end up with a rattle.


Couldn't tell if the car in the video had clips like our Beetles. Perhaps by looking at a schematic
of each car, you can tell? Shouldn't be difficult to get your parts dept to print them and then, if needed, blow them up to a large size so you can get a better view of the connections.


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

Does the intercooler just replace the existing radiator? It's hard to tell from the video, but it looks like they just removed and replaced the radiator.


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## PooLeArMor (Aug 13, 2008)

the beet said:


> Does the intercooler just replace the existing radiator? It's hard to tell from the video, but it looks like they just removed and replaced the radiator.



the intercooler sit behind the radiator. and u need to remove the radiator to install the intercooler.


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

PooLeArMor said:


> the intercooler sit behind the radiator. and u need to remove the radiator to install the intercooler.


You do not have to remove the radiator to replace the intercooler, you simply have to support it while you unbolt the intercooler from it


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## Chrisho (Dec 1, 2012)

I found when the outside temp is bad that running the AC with vent selection to push some of the air over the top of the dash (defog setting) that my car stays cooler.


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## the beet (May 5, 2012)

drtechy said:


> You do not have to remove the radiator to replace the intercooler, you simply have to support it while you unbolt the intercooler from it


I'm surprised there's room...


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

the beet said:


> I'm surprised there's room...


Plenty, it's easier than doing the gti or gli's since we don't have the bracket on the ac condenser that they have to cut. A/C condenser just moves out of the way, unbolt the intercooler and reverse the process


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## Cadenza_7o (Jan 23, 2001)

Babie said:


> http://youtu.be/QlJcJ7vPHQs
> 
> if this anything is anything like it, my bro wont do it for me. Also i may end up with a rattle.


Most front-ends of FWD cars are designed like this. To replace a radiator in most VW/Audi cars, the front-end has to come off. I had to do this for my NB last November when the radiator sprang a leak. Here's a sample video...


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## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

Cadenza_7o said:


> Most front-ends of FWD cars are designed like this. To replace a radiator in most VW/Audi cars, the front-end has to come off. I had to do this for my NB last November when the radiator sprang a leak. Here's a sample video...


Removing the bumper on the 2012+ Beetle's is a lot easier than removing the front end of the 1998-2010 New Beetle's. Those were a pain in the rump to work on if you ever had to change radiator or fans, etc. since you can't just take off the bumper without taking off the fenders. 
So it's not going to be as grueling on this generation Beetle. 

The intercooler is sandwiched between the Radiator and the AC condenser. As DrTechy already mentioned there is no need to remove the radiator in order to replace the Intercooler. If you have a friend helping you and the two of you aren't totally mechanically challenged you should be able to swap out the intercooler in about 2 hours. It's not brain surgery but it can be tricky if you haven't done it before.


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## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

Babie said:


> http://youtu.be/QlJcJ7vPHQs
> 
> if this anything is anything like it, my bro wont do it for me. Also i may end up with a rattle.


Why mess with an Intercooler that may or may not solve your issue. I would personally start with an APR Stage 1 tune which is hands down the BEST BANG for the BUCK performance upgrade you can do to your Beetle. It will transform that slow Snail into a Shark Tornado and you will be 
*SLONOMO*  After that if you still think your Beetle is slow which I very highly doubt you can always add a Downpipe and or Intercooler, lowering springs etc.... but trust me there is no other mod you can do to this beetle to make it perform better than a Stage 1 tune. 
But Hurry because the APR Summer Sale ends on August 4th which is actually a Sunday so really the last time you can get it for the Sale price will be Saturday the 3rd. 
$599.00 for a Fully loaded ECU or $549.00 for just a one file Tune. Regular price on the Fully Loaded one is over 1200 bucks so it is a good deal. On the 1 file tune you only save 50 bucks. 
Check around because there will be also labor fees involved since for the first time they have to take the ECU out of the car and bench tune it. If you send it directly to APR they don't charge for that service but it is a hassle since you have to take the ECU out of the vehicle and ship it. Probably worth the hour of labor that most places will charge you to tune it. 

Good Luck !!


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## BretAZ (Apr 1, 2013)

I live in Phoenix. It gets hot here. I think my turbo runs fine in the heat. AC works great.

I am not surprised that the whole turbo vs non turbo has been drug into yet another thread. Who the **** cares. Buy what you want.


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## IndyTTom (Oct 23, 2007)

BretAZ said:


> I live in Phoenix. It gets hot here. I think my turbo runs fine in the heat. AC works great.
> 
> I am not surprised that the whole turbo vs non turbo has been drug into yet another thread. Who the **** cares. Buy what you want.


I agree with BretAZ. So far I have owned 2 Audi TT's with 1.8Turbo engines and a New Beetle with 1.8T and now this 2012 Beetle with 2.0T. I live in Indianapolis and last year we had over 75+ days over 95 degrees and over 18 of them were well over a 100 degrees. It was the hottest and most humid summer in over 100+ years. Both the 1.8T and the 2.0T ran perfectly fine with the AC blasting. Sure performance may not have been optimal but there was no signs of either car ever breaking down because of severe heat soak. They performed very well in the heat and they do very well in Indiana winters also. So it all boils down to what you expect out of your car and what you want to do about it. I personally would try the APR Stage 1 tune. It will be a worthwhile upgrade.
However, if you already made up your mind that the Beetle sucks then you may be happier with another type of vehicle. Perhaps a Honda Si? I used to own one and it was a quick little car. You just have to rev the crap out of it to get any power. Once you hit 8000rpms that car really screams vs a Turbo which starts putting out power a lot sooner in the powerband. 

Good Luck with whatever you decide.


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## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

*FV-QR*

This chick is still here complaining about her Beetle?


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## silverspeedbuggy (Aug 8, 2001)

Aonarch said:


> This chick is still here complaining about her Beetle?


I've been watching this one, but in all fairness, the topic has moved on to the merits of larger intercoolers. Let it be, I guess.


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## puma1552 (Jul 6, 2012)

Aonarch said:


> This chick is still here complaining about her Beetle?


agreed, her inane 8 topics a day like she's 13 and all her BS lies and constantly changing stories pretty much drove me right out of this forum...sure enough pop on and there's another one right at the top.

get rid of the car, get out of vw, and go get some other make. then again, her family supposedly owns an audi and/or vw dealership which clearly reeks of BS.


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## drtechy (Jun 3, 2009)

puma1552 said:


> agreed, her inane 8 topics a day like she's 13 and all her BS lies and constantly changing stories pretty much drove me right out of this forum...sure enough pop on and there's another one right at the top.
> 
> get rid of the car, get out of vw, and go get some other make. then again, her family supposedly owns an audi and/or vw dealership which clearly reeks of BS.


I usually could care less when people start talking trash like this but I just don't get it. Who cares if she makes a thousand threads, does it cost you anything? Do you "have" to look at them? I just don't understand why people give a dam. They are just threads on a forum, just move past them if you don't want to read them.


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## Aonarch (Dec 4, 2006)

Just add her to your block list. 

I keep her off, because her threads make me laugh.


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