# look at my high compression 16v E85 turbo ignition map. is it way retarded?



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

First of all, Hi My name is Dave I've just joined the club with a little sump'in different. 2L 16v 11:1 compression E85 turbo set up. I'm just getting my maps dialed in. I'm only going up to 5 psi right now. I just got my ignition map up to 130kpa dialed so it does not knock. 









I was hoping to not have to retard this much, but I don't know what a gas boost ignition map looks like to compare this to. is this way out of line retarded for a turbo ignition map?

pic of the engine bay roughed in


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

way way way retarded... you've started to retard the timing under vacuum, you don't hit boost until 100+kpa. 
This is a low compression 16v map so you can't run as advanced, but your also running E85 which is a high(er) octane fuel:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=7
you say your getting knock at 5psi boost??


----------



## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

*Re: look at my high compression 16v E85 turbo ignition map. is it way retarded? (weeblebiker)*

It does look really retarded...
Are you saying that you tuned it up to 130kpa so it doesn't show knock?
Do you have a stock ign. map?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: look at my high compression 16v E85 turbo ignition map. is it way retarded? (GTijoejoe)*

130kpa isn't much, even with the high comp on E85 I would think you could get into the 20's without issue. 
Have you verified fueling in that range? If your O2 is still reading in gas AFR you should be shooting for 11-11.5:1.


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

I have read reports of E85 being upwards of 105-114 Octane (Race Gas level of Octane). I would expect it to eat 20psi like it was candy. 
Q, what leads you to believe your knocking? If your using Knock sense or some other modulator to process Knock sensor signals for the MS unit... you need to consider "Valve Train" noise, you need to set a threshold where it no longer listens to the knock sensor. Your Valve train can cause false knocks at high RPM.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Southcross)*

I get the "crispy crackle" sound from the engine. when I reteard the timing it seams to go away, but so does the power. before the E85 switch and the engine pull and tubo addition I was running this
na on 92 octaine








Thanks for the replies. either I'm off on my machanical timing or what I'm hearing is not "knock". I'll check it out the next few days and or order a knock sense if everything checks out.


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*

I'm sorry, I suspect I'm hearing "pre-ignition", not "knock"
I'm running the njk sparkplugs 2 heat ranges colder than oe also.


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

ya... I don't know the "Crispy Crackle" noise.... wish I could be helpful with that ???


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*

yes or no
would a tooth cam advance on the came timing belt gear do this?
I think it does and that's what I did. already looked at my adjustable timing gear @ tdc and worked it out.
timing to bring back up my timing. woohoo! it already breaks traction rolling @ 30mph and going to 3/4 gas pedal going to 130kpa in 3rd gear.








time for better tires me thinks.


----------



## GTijoejoe (Oct 6, 2001)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*

Be sure your mechanical timing is dead on. You should be able to run 20* I would think at 130kpa. Pre-ign I would think is very unlikely, your engine usually is very hot for such to happen (does it happen when your engine is cold?). 
Can you drive the car NA? Would the same sound occur?
Check your blow by as the sound is occuring (if you can), be sure the sound is not compressed air leaking past your rings.


----------



## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*FV-QR*

I've tuned a 16v with stock pistons/milled head(~11:1 CR) and it wouldn't ping at 18*/9psi. This was all on 94 octane. Every setup is different though, but you SHOULD be able to run more timing.


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_I get the "crispy crackle" sound from the engine. when I reteard the timing it seams to go away, but so does the power. before the E85 switch and the engine pull and tubo addition I was running this
na on 92 octaine

stupid question, but you did retune and/or use larger injectors specifically for E85? What do your A/F ratios look like?


----------



## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

*Re: FV-QR (weeblebiker)*


_Quote, originally posted by *weeblebiker* »_yes or no
would a tooth cam advance on the came timing belt gear do this?


Definitely, advancing cam timing basically raises your dynamic compression.. and a tooth would be a LOT.


----------



## Southcross (Jul 2, 2004)

*FV-QR*

ya, but my experience with a cam gear being 1-tooth off was it ran stupid bad when everything else was timed "correctly"
Is it possible that one of the two cams is 180 degrees off from the other? Kind of reminds me of an 8v with the cam not timed on the correct dot...


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (Southcross)*

I have a goodly sized intake cam, the duration is great enough to let the car run relatively ok 1 tooth advanced (from previous experience) if one did not know better so I think I just didn't notice the degradation in performance since last fall. 
anyhoo it's all sorted out.
the problem with the intake cam being that advanced was that it was letting unburned gas through the exhaust throwing my ve table out of whack. so that's what was going on with my ve table








so here is my new spark map and no crispy crackle sounds now.








I can probably run even more advance, but I can already spin the tires in 5th gear @ 80mph, twice at least on dry pavement







, but now my new organic clutch disc slips before the tires in [email protected] 80, so no more of that fun till I feel like pulling the tranny and changing the disc.
set up 
stock bottom end rebuilt 30k miles ago and going strong
head and block decked a goodly portion for cleanup.
cleanup ported and gasket matched intake and exhaust.
aba headgasket
modified exhaust cam as an intake cam (see sig for info)
msI v2.2 with pwm mods for ijectors boost controller and idle stabilizer
55lb low impedance injectors
td04-14T turbo and boost control valve from a 2005 volvo xc-70
3" doown pipe to 2.5" V band connector to my old 2.25" exhaust.
intercooler from a 1st gen eclipse.
and all the ancillary turbo stuff
home made egt and and wide band gauges


_Modified by weeblebiker at 2:26 AM 4-30-2009_


----------



## sp_golf (Nov 28, 2007)

*FV-QR*

Sounds like you need better tires too








How much boost are you running?
The spark table looks good


----------



## weeblebiker (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: FV-QR (sp_golf)*

bosst control map is set to 210 kpa @ 90% tps. boost level is a little "fluttery" up over 140 is kpa, I may need to fiddle with the valve control pwm, I think I need a little higher frequency. 
I'm not sure how much pressure I was @ during the 5th gear pulls, but don't think I hit wot when the tires broke traction. kinda eased off the throttle once they broke, I really don't like doing 100mph with the tires spinning. I wasn't dataloging since I was just going to work, checking my afr on my gauge. I have it set with the max and min afr's for max power on E85 as my limits. I stayed in them so my map looks like it's fairly roughed in.


----------

