# My first Megasquirt...but which one?



## snikfrits (Aug 19, 2008)

Right now, I have a 9a 16v running Digifant 1 with an SNS chip. I'm currently building an ABA/16vT and might as well go megasquirt because....well, I want to learn how to tune my own car. I'm currently in dress rehearsals for the company i'm working at, so i've had a lot of time to read. I have a few questions that I wouldn't mind getting answered before I buy anything. Knowing what i'm building, should I go MS1 or MS2? From what i've read MsnS-E is a different software building from the original B&G setup and will allow MS1 to control spark while being relatively cheap. I could also go MS2-E and get the benefit of newer hardware. I'm an electrician apprentice, so actually building the unit won't be a problem. After reading an 11 page thread by JohnnyPhenomenon, Tuning MS2 seems a bit scary. He seemed to have massive ignition timing problems and something about his distributor being high to low instead of low to high or something like that. I'm pretty smart and can grasp concepts from reading, and i've been reading all the DIY's on DIYautotune and msextra.com as well as builds here to try and avoid similar problems. If you couldn't guess, i'm planning on using the hall sensor to control spark. I"ll definitely be installing it in steps like somebody suggested.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

snikfrits said:


> Right now, I have a 9a 16v running Digifant 1 with an SNS chip. I'm currently building an ABA/16vT and might as well go megasquirt because....well, I want to learn how to tune my own car. I'm currently in dress rehearsals for the company i'm working at, so i've had a lot of time to read. I have a few questions that I wouldn't mind getting answered before I buy anything. Knowing what i'm building, should I go MS1 or MS2? From what i've read MsnS-E is a different software building from the original B&G setup and will allow MS1 to control spark while being relatively cheap. I could also go MS2-E and get the benefit of newer hardware. I'm an electrician apprentice, so actually building the unit won't be a problem. After reading an 11 page thread by JohnnyPhenomenon, Tuning MS2 seems a bit scary. He seemed to have massive ignition timing problems and something about his distributor being high to low instead of low to high or something like that. I'm pretty smart and can grasp concepts from reading, and i've been reading all the DIY's on DIYautotune and msextra.com as well as builds here to try and avoid similar problems. If you couldn't guess, i'm planning on using the hall sensor to control spark. I"ll definitely be installing it in steps like somebody suggested.


I wouldn't use anything less than a V3.0 MS2 running the current MS/Extra firmware. And depending on what your ultimate goals are an MS3/3X may be a better choice. Also with an ABA bottom end you have the factory 60-2 crank trigger so distributor issues are a non issue. 
Tuning MS (any version) has become MUCH easier since TunerStudio has become the tuning software of choice.

One final thing... if you are going to continue to do research and you should, stick to threads that have started in the last year or 2 as a lot of the older ones no longer apply.


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## snikfrits (Aug 19, 2008)

Can I use my stock 16v distributor and digfant coil, or do I need to use the ABA disto and buy a block off plate?


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

You can use the coil and distributor you have but I would run your crank trigger off the 60-2 wheel in aba block.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

bonesaw said:


> You can use the coil and distributor you have but I would run your crank trigger off the 60-2 wheel in aba block.


Exactly. Use the 60-2 on the ABA short block for the actual rpm signal to MS and then you can fire the stock coil through the 16V dizzy if you want or go with a waste spark/coil pack ignition either will work just a couple of extra components to solder for waste spark. And with an MS3/3X you can add a cam signal and go full sequential and COP with no mods needed to the mainboard.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

Prof315 said:


> Exactly. Use the 60-2 on the ABA short block for the actual rpm signal to MS and then you can fire the stock coil through the 16V dizzy if you want or go with a waste spark/coil pack ignition either will work just a couple of extra components to solder for waste spark. And with an MS3/3X you can add a cam signal and go full sequential and COP with no mods needed to the mainboard.


 Voting for this option. I have MS3X and am fully sequential with wasted spark atm, but am installing my 16v engine with COP. The harness is SO easy to make with COP.


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## bonesaw (Aug 8, 2004)

The harness is easier with a regular coil. 2 wires. Cop is 16.


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## snikfrits (Aug 19, 2008)

Ok, all of that makes sense. I guess I thought I had to use the IM shaft driven dizzy since the cam mounted dizzy rotates at half the speed of the crankshaft. I'm most likely mixing systems (thinking that parts need to be "together"). Well, that didn't makes sense, but i'm understanding what's being said. For now, here's my last question. Right now I have a 16v running digifant in the car. I'm building a 16v/abaT to use with megasquirt. I want to install megasquirt and tune it in stages like has been said (tune ignition while digi is controlling fuel, ect.). The problem is that I can't tune it for my current 16v because it has 276 cams, porting, ect. I don't really want to tune megasquirt on the hybrid because it's an engine running for the first time as well as my first shot at tuning with megasquirt, let alone with a turbo. Which option would be best? 

1. Tune megasquirt on current 16v 
2. Install hybrid engine, except for the turbo, tune it as described above (in stages) 
3. Install complete hybrid engine with turbo, but leave turbo disconnected from intake 

There's a lot of room for disaster in each of these options, each in their own way. I'm ready for it, but i'm willing to try whatever the general public thinks the best option. I suppose I could just download a 2.0 turbo map for an initial tune so at least there's decent information for when the boost builds.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

snikfrits said:


> Ok, all of that makes sense. I guess I thought I had to use the IM shaft driven dizzy since the cam mounted dizzy rotates at half the speed of the crankshaft. I'm most likely mixing systems (thinking that parts need to be "together"). Well, that didn't makes sense, but i'm understanding what's being said. For now, here's my last question. Right now I have a 16v running digifant in the car. I'm building a 16v/abaT to use with megasquirt. I want to install megasquirt and tune it in stages like has been said (tune ignition while digi is controlling fuel, ect.). The problem is that I can't tune it for my current 16v because it has 276 cams, porting, ect. I don't really want to tune megasquirt on the hybrid because it's an engine running for the first time as well as my first shot at tuning with megasquirt, let alone with a turbo. Which option would be best?
> 
> 1. Tune megasquirt on current 16v
> 2. Install hybrid engine, except for the turbo, tune it as described above (in stages)
> ...


 
It wasn't my plan to do it this way, but how I did it was install MS on my 8v. Then learn to tune it a bit. Do both fuel and spark at the same time. It will save headaches. After you have it running, swap the engine. I would do without the turbo just to eliminate extra things that could go wrong. Once new engine is tuned and running well, add turbo. Second time around its much easier.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Generally if possible I would: 

Install MS on current hardware 
Make/implement 'future' MS changes on current hardware (seq/cop) if possible 
Install new 'fancy stuff' once you have learned the basics 

If you can't do it that way there's more risk and a steeper learning curve but it can be done if you plan well. 

With a V3 or 3.57 board you can switch between hall and VR with just some jumpers if you really wanted to get a stock 16v with no crank trigger running first. Just make sure your current wiring has a shield or can easily add it for the crank trigger later.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

Prof315 said:


> One final thing... if you are going to continue to do research and you should, stick to threads that have started in the last year or 2 as a lot of the older ones no longer apply.


 this is a good tip... as with most open source things, the tech moves pretty quickly and it can be hard to apply things from 3-4 years ago...


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## snikfrits (Aug 19, 2008)

Prof315, 

I've been reading a few threads on the aba/16v just to refresh myself, and I saw a few of your comments . Do I need to convert my 16v dist to a 1 window or not since i'll be using the 60-2 crank trigger for tach signal? Also, what would you suggest to wrap my wire looms with? Friction tape? Currently being in the rep opera business, I do thoroughly enjoy a clean and tidy loom.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

You'll need to convert the 16v dizzy to a single pulse (window or not) if you are going sequential injection. You only need to convert the 16v dizzy to single window if you are using the stock ECU. MS doesn't care. Alternatively, since the 16v dizzy is 4 window stock, you can use that instead for RPM and not have to make a secondary output for your dash tach. Then you won't be going sequential injection though.


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## snikfrits (Aug 19, 2008)

To be honest, i'm probably just going to run batch-fire. I ended up buying MS2 v3 and will run extra code. I'm going to build it to use hall signal, and tune it on my current 16v while I build my aba/16v....which I need to find an ABA block for The midwest is sometimes a bit lacking in parts. I've got a bare ABA block and internals, but all the gaskets and bearings/rings I have to buy would cost more than buying a used ABA block. I'd rather get a used one and blow it up (if that happens) rather than rebuilding mine and destroying that for the first attempt. After the ABA/16v is built, i'll drop it in, re-do my board to use 60-2 crank trigger and fire through the stock coil and 16v dist.


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## Prof315 (Jan 5, 2009)

snikfrits said:


> I've got a bare ABA block and internals, but all the gaskets and bearings/rings I have to buy would cost more than buying a used ABA block. .


 Since when? I just bought rods, mains, rings, and a gasket kit for an ABA last week and it was barely $150.


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## snikfrits (Aug 19, 2008)

Rings are 100 bucks and a gasket set is like 50 + bearings and such. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places. I just bought a used aba for 150 2 days ago. It'll be waiting for me when I get home.


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## rcortez13 (Nov 21, 2005)

snikfrits

Sent you a PM, your inbox is full! Are you interested in selling your Digi stuff?


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## snikfrits (Aug 19, 2008)

Project hit the back burner for quite awhile. What do you recommend wrapping the harness with? I bought the 8 foot harness, and about 5 feet of it are warpped with the corrugated plastic sheathing. What should I use for the rest of it? Some people suggest cloth wrap, some suggest e-tape(no), but i've also found flexible wire warp on wirecare.com that looks useful. http://www.wirecare.com/Braided-Sleeving.asp


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## snikfrits (Aug 19, 2008)

Do I need a TB with TPS? I've read that I can just use Map based calibration, but is a tps a better idea?


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

MAP based with TPS yes.

TPS gives accel/decel enrichment. Regardless you will need a TPS. Not critical to starting the car, but needed.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

SirSpectre said:


> TPS gives accel/decel enrichment. Regardless you will need a TPS. Not critical to starting the car, but needed.


accel enrichments can be done via MAPdot. its not needed. nice to have, and kind of handy as MAPdot tuning takes a bit longer, but both end up at the same place :beer:


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> accel enrichments can be done via MAPdot. its not needed. nice to have, and kind of handy as MAPdot tuning takes a bit longer, but both end up at the same place :beer:


Really? I thought MAPdot still need the ratio of the MAP with throttle position?


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

it looks at rate of change of MAP, rather than rate of change of TPS

:beer:


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## snikfrits (Aug 19, 2008)

Nevermind. Just saw 3 comments above. I'll save the 60 dollars on a TB with TPS and just use what I have.


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

snikfrits said:


> Nevermind. Just saw 3 comments above. I'll save the 60 dollars on a TB with TPS and just use what I have.


Don't skimp. Get a TPS.


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

SirSpectre said:


> Don't skimp. Get a TPS.


again, not required, and can always be added later if he feels MAPdot is coming up short


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## SirSpectre (Mar 20, 2011)

ValveCoverGasket said:


> again, not required, and can always be added later if he feels MAPdot is coming up short


Understood, but don't skimp


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## snikfrits (Aug 19, 2008)

points taken. I want to take a crack at tuning MS on my current 16v with hall sensor before I throw in my 16v/aba with crank sensor. It was suggested i do it this way since I know the current 16v is built correctly and such.


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## snikfrits (Aug 19, 2008)

Going to finish the board today. I'm planning on using hall signal for the 16v and then either continuning its use on the aba/16v or switching to VR signal. 

I know there are issues in terms of rising edge or falling edge of distributor and hooking up a pullup resistor. Is Msextra setting me up to fix that issue with these instructions:

Hall sensors Only (EDIS, VAST, luminition, etc):
a) Link OPTOOUT to TSEL
b) Solder a wire between TACHSELECT and XG1
c) For 5V inputs fit a 470R resistor into the position of R12
For 12V inputs fit a 1K resistor into the position of R12
d) For 5V inputs solder a wire between the top hole of C30 and 5V on the proto area.
For 12V inputs, solder a wire between the top hole of C30 and s12c pad on the main board.

I may as well ask now. 5v or 12v? I'm assuming it shouldn't vary between engines....but sometimes assuming is wrong.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Those mods work, you can use either 5v or 12v, but I haven't seen any reason to use 12v. You have 5v on TPS+ already near there and will be easy to run.


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## snikfrits (Aug 19, 2008)

Well, it's time to start loading firmware/software. After some problems with ports and such, I have the newest release installed. Here's where my questions start. I've been debating whether or not to use a base map found on spitfireefi.com/the internet, or starting fresh. My 16v is stock except it is running digifant, so the coil is digi coil, not a cis-e coil. If I did load somebody else's msq file, would that change base parameters like injector settings/warm up enrichment/cold start settings. On spitfire, there's fuel maps, spark maps, and the entire msq file. Would it be better to set my own parameters, and then use their fuel/spark maps? I tried loading the msq file once, and tunerstudio came up with 111 errors all saying that the new file didn't match my settings.


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## snikfrits (Aug 19, 2008)

Happy Easter


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## ValveCoverGasket (Mar 20, 2002)

snikfrits said:


> Would it be better to set my own parameters, and then use their fuel/spark maps? I tried loading the msq file once, and tunerstudio came up with 111 errors all saying that the new file didn't match my settings.


Sounds like the software versions didn't match. It'd likely be easier to just use the maps and set up the rest of your config by hand at that point - it may help you learn the software anyway doing it that way.


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## snikfrits (Aug 19, 2008)

Alright, it's finally summer and I dominated another semester of undergrad. I have about 15 days before I move to Utah for a month to work. I want to make some progress on this car that's been sitting in my garage for 2 years! I've made a lot of mistakes just trying to install the firmware/software. Usually i'm good with computers...3d modeling and drafting, but this is kiciking my ass. Anyway, is there any reason to have the little black rectangle on the daughterboard? It was the bootstrap thing giving me problems earlier. I guess it needs to be off the chip for it to connect to the computer. Well, i just discovered another problem. The center chip on the daughterboard is getting too hot to touch and shuts down tunerstudio. I checked for faults repeatedly, but i can't find any.


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## need_a_VR6 (May 19, 1999)

Gets hot is bad. The two pin jumper just needs to be on for initial code load then never thought of again.


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## snikfrits (Aug 19, 2008)

Well, i've decided to send it to spitfire. I might as well pay another $80 and have it fixed rather than scrapping it and wasting the money and time i've spent on the project. In the mean time, i'll throw the 16vT in the car and see how the SNS stage 5 chip deals with it.


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