# 225 max power



## 1fast2liter (Apr 4, 2005)

curious to know what the engine will handel with stock internals giving i d upgraded injectors exhaust turbotune all that happy stuff? i know the 180 is like 350 max tq but with lower compression and better forged pistons should be better for the 225 right? thanks


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## cablekid (Apr 26, 2011)

No, Rods have to be changed around 300-320TQ or they will bend.

And without upgrading a turbo the max you might be able to achive with a tune and all the bolt on is around 250-270 WHP .. considering your not AWD because then its more of a drive train loss.

Max 180Q is around 220 - 230HP will K03S and all the bolt ons.

I been looking into alot of this


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## 1fast2liter (Apr 4, 2005)

thanks for the reply... i think even 270 whp or tq would be very nice... and yes i would be awd since it would be a 225.. and like i said all the upgrades bt fmic exhaust dp all the way back. 

are their any places that offer a bt kit for the 225? apr no longer offers the bt for the 225 so not sure were else to go.


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## 20psi now (Feb 26, 2009)

:what: two guys that sound alike...... god help you both, and just to let you know you really need to search... there are a ton of threads out there that will tell you what you wanna know!


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## 1fast2liter (Apr 4, 2005)

really cause thats all i been doing.. and 2 if you got nothing to help with then why even reply to it..


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## cablekid (Apr 26, 2011)

1fast2liter said:


> thanks for the reply... i think even 270 whp or tq would be very nice... and yes i would be awd since it would be a 225.. and like i said all the upgrades bt fmic exhaust dp all the way back.
> 
> are their any places that offer a bt kit for the 225? apr no longer offers the bt for the 225 so not sure were else to go.



Just cause its a 225 dosen't mean its not FWD.. or AWD..

To get the most out of your 225 you would need:


Tune
FMIC
2.5 or 3 inch DP all the way back
Forged Turbo Inlet pipe
CAI or Ram Intake
Upgraded DV

You could also do a meth/water injection but you really need a tune to get the most out of it.

I might be forgetting something...

Or just go BT but then you are looking to spend atleast 2-3k or more 

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## 1fast2liter (Apr 4, 2005)

i thought the 225 came in awd nly.. hmmmm does it have a 6sp reguardless?


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## taifighter (Dec 21, 2007)

cablekid said:


> Just cause its a 225 dosen't mean its not FWD.. or AWD..
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What?


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## 1fast2liter (Apr 4, 2005)

lol thats what i thought


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## warranty225cpe (Dec 3, 2008)

Wow, looks like someone needs to read the FAQ.


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## 1fast2liter (Apr 4, 2005)

i did read the faq and it only mentioned the max for the 180.... the 225 did not have no max.. although it did say a good set of rods and it could be a monster after that.. i just wanna know what the stock internals on a 225 could hold as the pistons are lower compression and forged.. and yes i already know or as far as i did the 225 came in awd with a 6speed be it auto or manual. the 180 was the only one that caqme fwd or awd with a 5 speed


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## Doooglasss (Aug 28, 2009)

Since the rods are pretty much the same between the 180 & 225 motors the max torque is just around 330. Anything over that you're asking for trouble unless you change your rods.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

DougLoBue said:


> Since the rods are pretty much the same between the 180 & 225 motors the max torque is just around 330. Anything over that you're asking for trouble unless you change your rods.


These threads have been creeping up again over at id=27.

180 and 225 have pretty much the same rods, different pistons and compression ratios.

ALL 225's were 6spds and Haldex.

I have seen K04's on 180hp 1.8T's window blocks. I would be really cautious at 330tq, Anything over 300 is danger.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

This thread is epic! 
I bent the OEM rods on my 225 at 360 AWTQ, before that they held fine. I would say that on *a good tune*, the safe limit is around 340-350 AWTQ (anything past that and your playing with fire).


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

madmax199 said:


> This thread is epic!
> I bent the OEM rods on my 225 at 360 AWTQ, before that they held fine. I would say that on *a good tune*, the safe limit is around 340-350 AWTQ (anything past that and your playing with fire).


No way!

It all depends on how and where the TQ spike comes on and how hard.

The 02X turbos may push it up the power band some and make you a bit safer. Just like on a 50trim you can runn 400TQ but it doesn't come on with the flick of a switch like a K03.

Search id=27 there is horror stories of 270tq making bay windows in blocks back in the day.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

There are many instances of people running much higher than what is commonly accepted as safe.

Josh was running 350ft-lbs on his stock rods when he toyed with E85.

For the $400 to replace rods its beyond cheap insurance, if your going to push the edge you have the money to put in rods.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

ejg3855 said:


> No way!
> 
> It all depends on how and where the TQ spike comes on and how hard.
> 
> ...


I anticipated that "no way" and that's why I highlighted " on a good tune". The rods bending at 360 AWDTQ wasn't an OOPS situation for me, it happened while I was testing and pushing the limit on a dyno. AFR was in check, EGTs were monitered etc. so it wasn't random and I was actually testing the limit. I can only speak from my personal experiences on the subject, so take it for what it's worth (all I know is that you won't find many well documented, on a dyno, instances of OEM rods bending).


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

*FV-QR*

Oh no of course not, most people don't bother to document K04 builds.

Yea a good tune makes a large difference, but what fun is smoothing out the TQ spike


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## 1fast2liter (Apr 4, 2005)

thanks that was what i was trying to figure out.. the last car i did was a 96 dodge neon with a 2.4 srt4 built swap making just a shade short of 440 at the wheels.. i miss that car and i am looking at getting a tt just trying to figure out if its worth going 225 right away or save a couple grand and go to a 180.. i really want the 6speed though.. maybe get the 225 and chip it and do all the bolt ons then go from their.. so if you were t change the rods to say scat or what ever what would be the limit then or the limiting factor..i would like to play again at 400whp and tq.... maybe 450 that would be fun


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Differences b/t the 180Q and 225Q that will affect your decision (since you're going BT anyways):

1" larger vented rear discs vs smaller non vented
5 speed vs 6 speed, both 02M transmissions
Everything else different is engine related, aka dual vs single intercoolers, passenger vs driver's side intake manifold inlet, K03 vs K04. 

Why do you want a six speed? Just to say it's a six? The gearing on both transmissions is pretty short and not much real world difference between the two. Neither is stronger than the other. Now if you're going to change finals for a high top end, or play with ratios in any way, then it would depend on the usage you plan for the car. For a daily/street car, a 180Q just makes sense to me if you're going to go BT anyways. Just my thoughts..... On a FWD 180HP motor with a set of OEM pistons and aftermarket rods and a stock big port head with a 3076, I made 470WHP with ~380WTQ. Exhaust valves are considered the next weakest link for their habit of breaking the heads off the stems due to rpm/temperature extremes.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

Good post above from Adam (as usual)!
One thing I may add is if you're going to be building for power and adding rods and valves. You may want to consider the compression ratio. The 225 has a lower CR and ultimately allows to push boost and timing farther.

In my case for example, I wouldn't be able to push 
the tune to 33 psi and timing to insanity on the lower 180 CR. What the 180 is very good at IMHO is good off boost power and they make the best street monsters when built right.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

madmax199 said:


> One thing I may add is if you're going to be building for power and adding rods and valves. You may want to consider the compression ratio. The 225 has a lower CR and ultimately allows to push boost and timing farther.
> 
> In my case for example, I wouldn't be able to push
> the tune to 33 psi and timing to insanity on the lower 180 CR. What the 180 is very good at IMHO is good off boost power and they make the best street monsters when built right.


While your statements are true Max, the difference in a half point of compression ratio is negligible in the engine power equation. The difference is easily made up for by a 0.5-1 psi of boost. Now if that pushes you over the threshold of detonation based on boost level and fuel, then it should be a consideration. That said, I didn't have a problem running 30 psi of boost from the 3076 and 20+* BTDC of timing in the upper rpms on stock AEB pistons, which have the same CR as AWP/ATC pistons. 

*(I think the engine code for early 180TT's was ATC, I'm too lazy to look it up. If I'm wrong, then you know what I meant.)


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

20v master said:


> While your statements are true Max, the difference in a half point of compression ratio is negligible in the engine power equation. The difference is easily made up for by a 0.5-1 psi of boost. Now if that pushes you over the threshold of detonation based on boost level and fuel, then it should be a consideration. That said, I didn't have a problem running 30 psi of boost from the 3076 and 20+* BTDC of timing in the upper rpms on stock AEB pistons, which have the same CR as AWP/ATC pistons.
> 
> *(I think the engine code for early 180TT's was ATC, I'm too lazy to look it up. If I'm wrong, then you know what I meant.)


I agree that the higher CR can be offset by less boost. That statement is fine for better flowing turbos that can afford loosing some boost, timing or run fatter to make up for the higher CR. On small frame turbos, that isn't the case, to make power you need all the boost fuel timing you can get. I have the habit of buliding cars around OEM hardware (scca classing restriction) and I know that half a point in CR is huge in how far you can push things. There is no way I could have spiked 33 psi and the amount of timing that I run on the 180 CR (the limit would have been much lower and lowering boost would equal to less power).


So everyone could follow (I know Adam knows the kind of timing I'm talking about) this is what timing I push at 33 psi spike in the midrange.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## 1fast2liter (Apr 4, 2005)

from the looks of the 6 speed vs the 5 yes the final drive is the same but the gears are closer togeather over all wich to me would make for a quicker car... plus i like the fact the 225 comes with the bigger turbo from the get go.... what yrs came with the better k04?

and thanks guys the info is great i appreciate it..


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

madmax199 said:


> I agree that the higher CR can be offset by less boost. That statement is fine for better flowing turbos that can afford loosing some boost, timing or run fatter to make up for the higher CR. *On small frame turbos*, that isn't the case, to make power you need all the boost fuel timing you can get. I have the habit of buliding cars around OEM hardware (scca classing restriction) and I know that half a point in CR is huge in how far you can push things. There is no way I could have spiked 33 psi and the amount of timing that I run on the 180 CR (the limit would have been much lower and lowering boost would equal to less power).


I thought it was assumed that this particular car was headed the big turbo route, but then he says below he likes having a bigger turbo stock, so not sure if this still appplies. Either way, I still don't think the half point lower compression ratio is anything to sway you one way or the other. Sure, logic says you can run more boost and timing on lower compression, but that's only at WOT. Are you on stock cams still too? On stock cams, you start getting near pumping losses around 28* BTDC, but that depends on fuel being used due to flame front propagation speed. With that slow burning corn juice you like, you're probably okay.  Like I already said, the OP's plans for the car would determine what route was better. Like we've discussed, I never had problems running 10:1 CR on stroker with a 35R and timing similar to yours. 



1fast2liter said:


> from the looks of the 6 speed vs the 5 yes the final drive is the same but the gears are closer togeather over all wich to me would make for a quicker car... plus i like the fact the 225 comes with the bigger turbo from the get go.... what yrs came with the better k04?
> 
> and thanks guys the info is great i appreciate it..



You'll actually be slower in a straight line due to shifting more, at least in quarter mile like situations. Max will tell you he doesn't like the 225 gearing for auto X either as they are just too short, so again it depends on what you're using the car for. All 225's have the same basic K04, there are different versions but they are only different in regards to WG attachment to the turbine housing.


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## madmax199 (Oct 28, 2009)

20v master said:


> I thought it was assumed that this particular car was headed the big turbo route, but then he says below he likes having a bigger turbo stock, so not sure if this still appplies. Either way, I still don't think the half point lower compression ratio is anything to sway you one way or the other. Sure, logic says you can run more boost and timing on lower compression, but that's only at WOT. Are you on stock cams still too? On stock cams, you start getting near pumping losses around 28* BTDC, but that depends on fuel being used due to flame front propagation speed. *With that slow burning corn juice you like, you're probably okay. * Like I already said, the OP's plans for the car would determine what route was better. Like we've discussed, I never had problems running 10:1 CR on stroker with a 35R and timing similar to yours.


We really do understand each other very well 
I am seriously addicted to that slow, cooler burning, highly oxygenated and filled with exhaust byproducts corn juice :heart::heart::heart:


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## 1fast2liter (Apr 4, 2005)

to start yes i want the bigger stock turbo and as far as straight line not to concerned about 1/4 mile times althought the ay its loking a 180q wouldnt be a bad choice at all eaither...


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## zak2006 (May 5, 2011)

wish there were more corn stations!!!!


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## Atomic Ed (Mar 19, 2009)

If the op really want to head towards 450hp, he would be better off with the 225. He'll need the AWD to get the power down.


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Atomic Ed said:


> If the op really want to head towards 450hp, he would be better off with the 225. He'll need the AWD to get the power down.


Uh, the 180Q's have the same drivetrain as the 225's. That was the point.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

1fast2liter said:


> from the looks of the 6 speed vs the 5 yes the final drive is the same but the gears are closer togeather over all wich to me would make for a quicker car... plus i like the fact the 225 comes with the bigger turbo from the get go.... what yrs came with the better k04?
> 
> and thanks guys the info is great i appreciate it..


02M's have two final drives 

Sent from a phone.


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## 1fast2liter (Apr 4, 2005)

according to the specs for a 180q and the 225q the final is the sane n both just a extra gear.. the fwd has a tottaly diff fianl and gets better gas mileage


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

1fast2liter said:


> according to the specs for a 180q and the 225q the final is the sane n both just a extra gear.. the fwd has a tottaly diff fianl and gets better gas mileage


Yes, but the Q transmissions are 02M's, and the FWD trans is an 02J, aka a different design and much weaker.


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

1fast2liter said:


> the fwd has a tottaly diff fianl and gets better gas mileage


mileage has very little to do with gear ratios in this case, most of it is the extra rotational parts.


R&P in 6th is 3.316 and 6th is .912 80MPH @ 3250

R&P in 5spd is 3.316 and 5th is .970 80MPH @ 3500

Pretty close.


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## 1fast2liter (Apr 4, 2005)

true.. i guess my final reasoning would be the fact of a bigger turbo right away.... and i like the idea of lower compression also.... i think a big turbo tuned to 30o would be a fun lil driver...... then when i get a lil extra money get the rods and install them... now i dont know much about theis 1.8s but i should be able to pull the oil pan and pull each rod individual like and install the aftermarket one and keep the stck forged pistons.. then maybe turn up the boost some...... has anyone had any luck using megasquirt on here as their fuel timing controler or is unitronics the way to go... and i keep seeing vagcom is that the wirless link from the cars scan port? and if so what program you all running with it... i did a search on vagcom and cam up with the bluetooth device from the diagnostics port of the car to a android phone running the torque program...... what else is their.. thanks for the help....


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## 20v master (May 7, 2009)

Torque/Droid is no where near as comprehensive for the TT (but it's great for what it is and what it costs) as it's a generic program whereas VAG COM is for VW/Audi cars specifically. Lowered compression sucks unless you're in boost all the time. My stroker is 10:1. :thumbup: You can't install rods without removing the head. The oil squirters won't let the piston come out the bottom of the bore, and you can only access three of the four since the last one is behind the trigger wheel of the crankshaft. So unless you want to only install 3 rods, then you need to remove the head. It's much easier to remove the entire engine.


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## 1fast2liter (Apr 4, 2005)

that sucks but makes sence..and were cani get vag com from? can i down load it to my phone or is it computer only?


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## ejg3855 (Sep 23, 2004)

PC only pretty much.

Sent from a phone.


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## 1fast2liter (Apr 4, 2005)

ok cool.. thank you.


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