# On a budget - suspension



## new_2_vdubs (Oct 21, 2013)

2010 Jetta Sedan 2.5 here. 

On a budget, what do you guys recommend for a better suspension setup? I see coilover kits for $550 to $650 but that makes me worried about the quality. I usually see them going for well over $1k+. Are there any recommendations? I want to not only lower the car 1.5" to maybe 2" (enough to allow a 17 or 18" rim without tucking, I want a nice clean look) but I do want the performance there, too. I do not enjoy driving a car that is sluggish around turns, on ramps, off ramps, etc. Also, what are the leading sway bars for these cars? I had an '07 civic Si and I remember only putting on a rear sway bar, maybe because Honda already did a great job on the front suspension? Not sure, but that was the recommendations of many on the civic forums. So what also do you all recomend for sway/anti-roll bars? Brands? Combo of front and back?

Thanks


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

It would cost about $5,000 or so for "better" suspension.

Your rabbit/golf comes as good as it gets. You can lower it, stiffen it, make room for bigger brakes and faster speeds but it will never improve a lap time or handling 


With that said. Go as cheap as you can. Go cheap on multiple setups. But please don't think you're improving handling.



To get better lap times you basically have to start over completely with whole new suspension geometry... or sink $5,000 into the stock geometry making it as good as it gets and more adjustable. In other words, if you want performance look at tires and brake pads. Just running a quarter tank and pulling the rear seat/trunk and spare tire gives the stock brakes a TON of extra room as is even. Done.


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## cechak13 (Nov 18, 2010)

ive run eibach pro street s coils for about a year nowon my 09 jetta. great ride, forgiving over bumps, wish they went lower" drops 1-3.5 inches but provides great performance . run a rear sway bar as well. i paid about 1200 for mine.


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## HollisJoy (Dec 26, 2011)

I would check out UniBrace & TyrolSport DeadSet Rigid Subframe Collar Kit .
I currently have the UniBrace XB & love it. I'm expecting delivery on the UB & RB this week. That should take some of the slop out of my ride.


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## vwluger22 (Jan 25, 2005)

This has nothing to do with the 2.5 MOTOR and doesn't belong here. You already made a thread like this in the MKV section.


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

vwluger22 said:


> This has nothing to do with the 2.5 MOTOR and doesn't belong here. You already made a thread like this in the MKV section.


Not like much else to comment on round here


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

HollisJoy said:


> I would check out UniBrace & TyrolSport DeadSet Rigid Subframe Collar Kit .
> I currently have the UniBrace XB & love it. I'm expecting delivery on the UB & RB this week. That should take some of the slop out of my ride.


Damn. I'm jumping on that sumbeotch!


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

tchilds said:


> It would cost about $5,000 or so for "better" suspension.
> 
> Your rabbit/golf comes as good as it gets. You can lower it, stiffen it, make room for bigger brakes and faster speeds but it will never improve a lap time or handling
> 
> ...


I'm moving to effectively an entirely different suspension, and I'm paying a whole lot less than $5000.

I'm probably not going to do coil overs because they're not going to be as big a performance gain as something akin to OEM Golf R springs and Blistien HDs if you need a mild lift or something like FSDs w/ DG springs if you need a mild drop.

The best brakes for our cars that are still primarily street cars are off a Porsche Boxster using GTI sized rotors. That's a big reduction in rotational mass. Then B6 front LCAs and all 4 knuckles will cut even more weight. Using S3 bushings will get the angles right for a mild drop, or use A5 wagon bushings for a lifted car. Then a full unibrace setup will all but kill chassis flex. My weapon of choice in sways is to go identical size front and rear and that's not too much for the 22mm F/R whiteline kit.

Camber plates are optional depending on how high or low you go --if not too much, you're okay just doing TT or 034 mounts. 034 makes the best rear LCAs IMHO too.

That's a radically different, and a significantly faster car. Reduction of mass is almost always faster on the track.


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## eatrach (May 13, 2004)

I purchased a set of used Koni Coilover for $600. Purchased upper mounts: front and back. With installation, I think I spent close to 1k. Love the ride and handling.


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## Kolwala (Aug 9, 2011)

tchilds said:


> It would cost about $5,000 or so for "better" suspension.
> 
> Your rabbit/golf comes as good as it gets. You can lower it, stiffen it, make room for bigger brakes and faster speeds but it will never improve a lap time or handling
> 
> ...


Where are you getting this information? The stock suspension under steers like crazy and with the amount of body roll/ braking dive I think just about every logical person can agree there is much to be desired in the performance category. With just a simple cup kit and sway bars you will cut back on unwanted body movement, a reduction in under steer (if setup properly of course), and increased stability and responsiveness (handling) among other things. All of this will increase cornering speeds and in turn increase lap times. Never go cheap, as goes with just about anything, you get what you pay for. You can find a good used cup kit for around $500 and sways for around $300. This is a cost efficient way to increase handling and decrease lap times. Any of those cheap coilovers are more focused for "stance" so I would avoid them if you want handling. Please tell me that was a troll post because that was the most misinformation I have ever read.

The Golfmkv forum has lots of good advice and tricks for suspension setups
http://golfmkv.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=46

Rabbid Rally Rabbit also seems to have some good advice

Edit: Konis are an improvement over stock but I have heard they have bad coil bind if it is set too high 
http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164749

Good info on Koni's


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

Kolwala said:


> Rabbid Rally Rabbit also seems to have some good advice
> 
> Edit: Konis are an improvement over stock but I have heard they have bad coil bind if it is set too high
> http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164749
> ...


Thanks for the compliment.

On the issue of Koni Coils, they've heavily reduced spring bind at even stock height on the newest revision, and if they bind, you can ususally get a warrenty replacement. TBH there is always the possibility of spring bind on any progressive rate spring that you don't sleeve, but sleeving all but elmiminates the issue.

I like the Koni coilover MK5s and MK6s I've driven. They've all felt quite smooth and supple. I prefer to use linear springs and digresive shocks to progressive springs, but that's honsetly a presonal preference.


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

I was just sharing what I've seen people go through.

Yes light weight control arms are great, so are reductions in unsprung mass.

Only an idiot would reduce weight there before he addressed the weight else where, like in tires and wheels...

To each his own I guess. I stand by my assertion that it will cost $5,000 to improve what you started with, barely.


As far as understeer, WTF are you talking about. This car handles so neutral from the factory that I've spun it out in a couple slick intersections. I would not want to stiffen the rear suspension/bar up anymore as this would lead to spinning out in the rain under aggressive driving conditions.

People obviously don't understand what a well rounded suspension setup the MKV comes with to begin with. Get better brakes, tires, wheels, leave the suspension alone. New struts and shocks isn't enough, to do ANYTHING at all. New bushings and mild drops/raises???? How is that any different. Anyone can put alloy control arms on their car from taiwain and go faster, we've all done it... this has nothing to do with altering suspension.


If you want to get into modifying the camber on the MKV, well it is a very complex system and you will find very quickly that it is a give and take relationship. The car came from the factory as good as it gets for the spring rates it came with, IMO.
I don't know what people are talking about MKV rolling and understeering for, that's the driver's fault. Try driving an MK4 VR6 w/6 speed.... now THAT IS UNDERSTEER. The MKV was not built for a race track with banked turns, flawless tarmac, and flat straight aways. It is built to save your ass in the event you hit a bump or dip while driving your MKV horribly rolling and understeering it around corners at 3am. The car is designed to roll, and this articulates to everything else. It is front wheel drive, it has to roll... quite high off the ground, for the suspension to actually work in all aspects of the balancing act. If you think it shouldn't EVER roll, no matter how you drive it, you've already screwed up the suspension and goals of better handling.


*Nobody has mentioned new engine mounts which drastically improve handeling and shifting, and driving, and traction....* Yeh great advice around here... Replace your heavy brakes before your heavy tires/wheels. Replace your perfectly balanced swaybar and camber, and ignore engine mounts and shifting subframes etc.... yep great advice.


Relocate your battery, chip the car, get a set of new engine mounts or at least a dog bone, and some good tires and brake pads (oem brakes and pads are amazing for under 300hp, good luck w/getting anything aftermarket that comes close in modulation on a budget) No more driver induced understeer, no handling problems (that you WILL cause spending less than $5,000)


Talk to Shine or any other true suspension company. Good luck.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

tchilds said:


> I was just sharing what I've seen people go through.
> 
> Yes light weight control arms are great, so are reductions in unsprung mass.
> 
> ...


Relax, mate.

Wheels and tires are always the best place to start. I assume people know that one.

Yes, mounts make a difference. They improve shifting and put more power to the ground. It isn't the same as altering the suspension.

These cars do not handle well when they leave the factory. Moving to a GLI/GTI suspension alone is a great improvement, and going further gains more.

Unsprung weight reduction is nearly always a good idea, and the stock LCAs and knuckles are weak to boot. There's a reason APR is allowed to put aluminum LCAs/Knuckles from Germany on their MK6 GTI/R "stock" track cars. The knuckles and LCAs break under heavy driving on a track.

On the issue of hitting bumps and dips at 3am --that's why you buy digressive dampeners. :beer:

Have a good day.


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

Haha just trying to say you can really nitpick if you want.

There is a reason I said $5,000 up front. It takes a lot to improve on what you have. Buy a GTI if you want GTI suspension so bad.

The point here is that there's no reason in thinking a coil over kit on a budget is going to do anything other than rice out your VW. Enjoy the drop and don't act like its doing anything else. :laugh:


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

tchilds said:


> There is a reason I said $5,000 up front. It takes a lot to improve on what you have. Buy a GTI if you want GTI suspension so bad.


It really isn't that expensive unless you're buying adjustable everything. OEM Drivergear springs and Koni FSD shocks with 034 strut mounts are a solid improvement for about a grand with labor or $800 without. A GTI brake kit and Tyrolsport bushings costs $350. A GTI RSB kit is $150.

That's a great improvement over stock.



tchilds said:


> The point here is that there's no reason in thinking a coil over kit on a budget is going to do anything other than rice out your VW. Enjoy the drop and don't act like its doing anything else. :laugh:


I agree on this --except just don't buy cheap coil overs period. The cheapest ones with any reliability are ST coil overs. I'd begin with Konis, H&Rs, KW v1s or Bilstien PSSes since they are worth revalving and don't rust in a year.


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> It really isn't that expensive unless you're buying adjustable everything. OEM Drivergear springs and Koni FSD shocks with 034 strut mounts are a solid improvement for about a grand with labor or $800 without. A GTI brake kit and Tyrolsport bushings costs $350. A GTI RSB kit is $150.
> 
> That's a great improvement over stock.
> 
> ...




Cheap coilovers. They won't be 4 corner balanced, they probably won't be adjusted ever.

Set them by counting turns and forget them. Doesn't matter if they last just buy another set after you get sick of the chappy ride and figure out what's going on lol.


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## HollisJoy (Dec 26, 2011)

I think stock is pretty damn good actually...of course my previous ride was a _*Sport Truck*_. 
Which some people claim is an abomination


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## Kolwala (Aug 9, 2011)

I totally agree that cheaps coils suck dick and do nothing but rice, but $5000 is race car territory. O so since the stock suspension is so great, why don't race cars use it? Try taking slow corners, stock suspension will naturally understeer. They do this to prevent dumb ass drivers from spinning into a curb. Of course you can get any car to oversteer under the right conditions. Like I said before, sway bars and a cup kit are a vast improvement over stock. Body roll is needed to an extent, but the amount depends on the driver i suppose. You may need well over $5000 to build a competitive track car but you can improve over oem with much less than that

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

HollisJoy said:


> I think stock is pretty damn good actually...of course my previous ride was a _*Sport Truck*_.


I'm coming from my DD being an SVT Focus and my RallyX car was a 2000 Zx3. The stock suspension leaves a lot to be desired. It's quite comfortable, but it's only comfortable.

Thankfully, it's not hard to make it more comfortable AND faster. The gearbox on the other hand is going to take some cash...


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

Anyone coming from a solid rear beam type setup would think the MKV handles awesome.

Your problem is you came from a ZX3 which was as good as the MKV is today, 10 years ago! haha no wonder you don't believe the MKV is handling well in stock form.




Race cars don't use our stock setup because they would fly off the track at the speeds they travel... lol. Just like the same race car setup would hit one bump in the road and fly off the highway 


If you're worried about a gear box just get a 6 speed GTI and you're solid  Comes w/all necessary upgrades and doesn't get penalized for them haha. :laugh:


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

All I know is my stock setup stays right on the ass of a well tested and proven MK1 locally w/a good driver behind the wheel. Weight advantage? his HP advantage? his...

I have no desire to screw that up.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

tchilds said:


> Anyone coming from a solid rear beam type setup would think the MKV handles awesome.
> 
> Your problem is you came from a ZX3 which was as good as the MKV is today, 10 years ago! haha no wonder you don't believe the MKV is handling well in stock form.


Yup. I'm coming from one of the best handling hatchbacks of all time. The SVT Focus was effectively a factory built AutoX car. It's no MK4 R32, but it's a great car.

I like my MK6 more, but I miss my SVT.



tchilds said:


> Race cars don't use our stock setup because they would fly off the track at the speeds they travel... lol. Just like the same race car setup would hit one bump in the road and fly off the highway



My race car was AWD swapped with a Modeo trans and rear diff. It was also lifted --no problems until I farked the gearbox and couldn't get another one.



tchilds said:


> If you're worried about a gear box just get a 6 speed GTI and you're solid  Comes w/all necessary upgrades and doesn't get penalized for them haha. :laugh:


4-bangers have terrible powerbands. The only other car besides a Golf I was really interested in for the car that I'll be racing after I pay it off was a Volvo C30.

5-cyl cars have unique power bands. They generate decent low end torque and then scream all the way to redline. This is just a better car to build than a GTI.


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## HollisJoy (Dec 26, 2011)

The GTI is missing 1 important thing...that 5 cylinder sound.
I wonder if the soundaktor thingie works on a 2.5L


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

HollisJoy said:


> The GTI is missing 1 important thing...that 5 cylinder sound.
> I wonder if the soundaktor thingie works on a 2.5L


You mean that stupid POS all the GTI guys delete?


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## tchilds (Nov 21, 2008)

The best thing about the 2.5 is how they twisted the engine about 15 degrees to better align the axles with the geometry in theory. VW did a good job.

It's good as is or fix it all  If replacing parts then sure why not. I learned a lot from rabbidrally I'll use when the time comes


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

tchilds said:


> The best thing about the 2.5 is how they twisted the engine about 15 degrees to better align the axles with the geometry in theory. VW did a good job.


It's got a decent roll center. With stiffer shocks, I'd bet it has less body roll than a MK6 GTI. If you could find stiffer springs that kept stock height, I'd say go for it.

Off the cuff, I think DG springs for a DSG TDI Wagon would put the car right at stock height, but with better spring rates. They're designed to lower a slightly heavier car about an inch, so if we're lucky it'll be perfect. Unless I saw enough numbers I couldn't say that with any degree of certainty.




tchilds said:


> It's good as is or fix it all  If replacing parts then sure why not.


That's how I'm building this car. Why waste the money replacing parts that are still useful? I'm not racing YET, do I've got plenty of time.



tchilds said:


> I learned a lot from rabbidrally I'll use when the time comes


Thanks.


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## HollisJoy (Dec 26, 2011)

The pic is from the R32 gathering, Wookies in the Woods. It was fun chasing R32s thru the Tail of the Dragon (Hwy129).
It was a good way to reveal all the weaknesses of my base 2.5L
Obviously, I'm down on power & brakes. I could almost keep up through the twisties, but man I got dumped on the straights!
I already knew there was a good bit of body flex, so last year I bought the UniBrace XB. That piece tightens up the car very nicely. 
My 1st run after the install wasn't as exciting, which is good! I could tell what the rear end was up to before it could surprise me. 
I learned drifting is no fun if you aren't ready for it.
The next step is to install the other 2 UniBraces, the UB & RB. Paired with the TyrolSport Deadset, I'm out to remove any slop from the factory.
Next week will be DG Springs, a rear sway bar, & 034 strut mounts. I want to install an IE Intake + Tune for my 2013. I'm trying to get the done by end of the month. 
Then I'll tweak bushings/trans/engine mounts.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

HollisJoy said:


> The pic is from the R32 gathering, Wookies in the Woods. It was fun chasing R32s thru the Tail of the Dragon (Hwy129).
> It was a good way to reveal all the weaknesses of my base 2.5L
> Obviously, I'm down on power & brakes. I could almost keep up through the twisties, but man I got dumped on the straights!
> I already knew there was a good bit of body flex, so last year I bought the UniBrace XB. That piece tightens up the car very nicely.
> ...


Do yourself a favor and get some better shocks while you're doing springs. These cars are underdamped and the stiffer springs makes it more obvious.


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## killerbunny (Jul 10, 2008)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> Do yourself a favor and get some better shocks while you're doing springs. These cars are underdamped and the stiffer springs makes it more obvious.


From what I here the DG and bilstein HD are a good combination. The MK6 version of the Bilsteins are less stiff, and more forgiving, so a lot of people recommend those if you do not want too harsh of a ride.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

killerbunny said:


> From what I here the DG and bilstein HD are a good combination. The MK6 version of the Bilsteins are less stiff, and more forgiving, so a lot of people recommend those if you do not want too harsh of a ride.


I'd rather go for Koni FSDs. The dual valving means a smoother ride and better traction when the roads are imperfect.


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## killerbunny (Jul 10, 2008)

Rabbid Rally Rabbit said:


> I'd rather go for Koni FSDs. The dual valving means a smoother ride and better traction when the roads are imperfect.


Ya the would be a good option. What do you think would be the best option for an autocross setup? Still the fsd?


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2009)

A good quality spring and shock setup (Koni's and whatever springs), or a set of KW V1's would greatly improve the handling on one of these. The stock stuff is incredibly soft, allowing the body to roll all over the place to the point where the contact patch is a joke under hard cornering. 

Our mk6 GLI reduced lap times by almost 20% with a set of coilovers, camber plates, and sticky R compound tires.... It also increased lateral grip by over .3 G, and sorted out the terrible tire wear issues the OE setup gives when pushed hard. That car has more aggressive stock suspension settings and wheel and tire package then a Rabbit to start with- so the improvement on a MK5 rabbit would be even greater. 

The OE setup is tuned for picking up groceries and that is about it- almost anything of high quality with "sport" tuning will be a huge improvement. Just DO NOT try to stretch your budget by sacrificing quality, you will hugely regret a set of poorly tuned / cheapo coilovers.


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## Kolwala (Aug 9, 2011)

Right on ^

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

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killerbunny said:


> Ya the would be a good option. What do you think would be the best option for an autocross setup? Still the fsd?


When racing, adjustability for that day usually trumps everything else. So if you're inclined towards coilovers, get a set. Eibachs are literally KW v1s they go for $800 on amazon NEW 4-5 times a year. The problem using FSDs in AutoX is that FSDs might be too soft in the rear if the parking lot you race in is blemish free, but if your surface is poor FSDs still make sense.

For my RallyX setup, I want a slight lift a and much stiffer but predictable shocks --H&R OE Sport Golf R springs and MK6 Bilstien HDs are what I'm leaning towards because FSDs would permanently be in the secondary valving bouncing like a pogo stick.


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## Rabbid Rally Rabbit (May 5, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> A good quality spring and shock setup (Koni's and whatever springs), or a set of KW V1's would greatly improve the handling on one of these. The stock stuff is incredibly soft, allowing the body to roll all over the place to the point where the contact patch is a joke under hard cornering.
> 
> Our mk6 GLI reduced lap times by almost 20% with a set of coilovers, camber plates, and sticky R compound tires.... It also increased lateral grip by over .3 G, and sorted out the terrible tire wear issues the OE setup gives when pushed hard. That car has more aggressive stock suspension settings and wheel and tire package then a Rabbit to start with- so the improvement on a MK5 rabbit would be even greater.
> 
> The OE setup is tuned for picking up groceries and that is about it- almost anything of high quality with "sport" tuning will be a huge improvement. Just DO NOT try to stretch your budget by sacrificing quality, you will hugely regret a set of poorly tuned / cheapo coilovers.


Pete, I will always defer to your superior knowledge. Your on track experience and knowledge of mechanical engineering are so far beyond what I know I'd be a fool not to.


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