# what transsmision oil should i use?



## klitoni (Mar 31, 2010)

vw passat 2001 AVF engine FRK transmision.6 speed manual


----------



## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

MTF are getting lighter and lighter. oem VW MTF is now as thin as ATF at SIX cSt!. I have a 2010 and actually went thicker, to 12cSt because I have APR flash and I want to keep the MT quiet. 

A common approach was to mix thick 14cSt Redline MT-90 with the thinner 10cSt MTL 50/50%. Now Redline offers a 12cSt 75w-85 that is ideal for older Euro cars. That should be the ideal visc, esp if you see cold. 

I lightened the 75w-90 from the wife's Astra to 10cSt....Fuch Silkolene Pro SRG 75 Full Ester Race MTF. That stuff is as good as it gets. 

You could look at AMSoil product line, they have GL-4 products. Avoid anything GL-5 and the combo 4&5 fluids,like Royal Purple. 

Let me know you climate and mods if you want any specific advice. Otherwise, RL is the ticket. You def want to go a bit thinner than the old oem 75w-90.


----------



## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

ive got hybrid gl 4/5 dyno in mine. gotta skip 2nd until it warms up (2nd it nothcy and grinds occasionally) I remember we had a conversation about using ATF in the gearbox. Im still holding off until i can find some decent oil. I can order it online (mt90 gl-4) for 19/bottle + 15 shipping +tax 

I was thinking of stopping off at the ford dealer and getting some motocraft MTL (or gl-4) 

but here's something i thought of. What about motor oil? i know some older hondas used it. like some diesel 15w40 or something similar? would it provide adequate protection and performance? My box is a bit leaky so im afraid going thinner will leave nice puddles in my driveway (not to mention getting low on oil)


----------



## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

I've been told that EP, AW add packs for ATF are insufficient. Some trans spec(ed) 10w-30 for it's supposed shear-resistance, but modern 5w-30 can do as well. Syncromesh at 8-9cSt was developed specifically to replace motor oil in trans apps, and it's GL-4. The Motorcraft is supposed to be REALLY good, but it is expensive. It may be 75w-90 only, making it too thick for MTF, imo. Shoot for 12 or down to 10cSt for your climate and HP levels. Ordering AMSoil is fine too, I can recommend a guy on the east or west coast.


----------



## BsickPassat (May 10, 2010)

klitoni said:


> vw passat 2001 AVF engine FRK transmision.6 speed manual


 VW G060 gear oil, which replaces G052


----------



## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

Im going to experiment with the motor oil seeing as its dirt cheap and easily available. Better than the questionable gl4/5 80w90 in there now (can you say canadian winter? ) Im going to take an educated guess and say synthetic may work a bit too well for proper synchroniser engagment, and even at that many 'quality' dyno oils are likely the same. Im going to use 10w30 dyno. If it works then great, if not im only out a few bucks :thumbup:


----------



## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

I would rather try Syncromesh, either GM or Pennzoil or just order something. German Syntec 0w-30 is one option I considered, I know you guys get it up there. I would be curious about how that works. 12cSt, right on the money.


----------



## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

what does 75w90 run like 17 cST cold?


----------



## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

13.5 to 18.5 per SAE J306, so 12cSt is not excessively thin at all. 










http://www.widman.biz/English/Tables/J306.html


----------



## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

wow..heavy stuff in the cold weather. 

so synthetic vs. dyno oil....synchromesh is not synthetic, but the original spec from VW is a synthetic gl-4 gear oil...but also specs an alternative non synthetic(G50 vs G52 or vice/versa)..which seems to be "better"..according to most of the research i have done. Consensus says synthetic is too slippery, and not allowing the synchro's to slow down and bite fast enough causing notchy shifts. I have zero personal experience with synthetic in a gearbox.


----------



## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

Yeah, there is real incentive to lighten the gear oil, esp in colder climates. I can plot the viscs for you down to 0f if you want to look up the +40c and +100c visc from the various Product Data Sheets. Let's just say the visc is in the 10,000s of cSt and the lighter grades are MUCH thinner. 

A good trick in extreme cold is to back into your spot and leave the gear selector in 2nd. You can start and pull away in gear, traveling as far as you can in 2nd to warm the box up. Much better than hammering it into 1st from neutral at -30c/f. 

Synthetic or not has become meaningless. Most lube products are hydrocracked dino oil to one degree or another, and the HC synth oils preform just as well as PAO synth at a lower cost. 

The friction modifier additives in the fluid themselves determine the coefficient of friction. GL-5 gear oils are slicker than GL-4 by design, for the reason you said, syncro engagement. 

Syncromesh is "dino" just because that's all it takes to formulate to the spec...again, coming from 10w-30 dino motor oil....and it is GL-4 for manual trans. That's definately an upgrade from any old VW dino gear/MTF oil. No reason to think Syncromesh can't have a 30-60k mile service life. 

I already have the Redline in at 6k and the Astra got Silkolene about the same time.


----------



## rhouse181 (Apr 13, 2008)

When coming out of neutral on a cold box, pop it into third then first... works like a charm! 

I also skip 2nd on cold morning until everything is toasty...


----------



## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*works for me also*



rhouse181 said:


> When coming out of neutral on a cold box, pop it into third then first... works like a charm!
> 
> I also skip 2nd on cold morning until everything is toasty...


----------



## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

1 & 3 are on the same gear forks, that's why going thru 3 to 1 results in easier engagement, the forks line up the splines.

You learn something new every time on Vortex.


----------



## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*question*



AudiJunkie said:


> 1 & 3 are on the same gear forks, that's why going thru 3 to 1 results in easier engagement, the forks line up the splines.
> 
> You learn something new every time on Vortex.


how do the forks line up the splines? i thought the syncros did that.


----------



## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

used half a jug of valvoline HM 10w30...shifts beautifully. how long do you think the service life of 10w30 would be in a vw?


----------



## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

30k would be the max for a dino fluid. I'm sure it'll shear in 1000-5000 miles. 10-15k would be my interval. 

How cold is it there now? If you want to use motor oil next time, Edge and the Mobil 1 ESP VW 504/507 would be on the list, the first ones I think of. You pretty much want to stay away from "Energy Conserving" or "Starburst" oils, they have excessive friction modifiers. Motorcycle oils will always be friendly to a gearbox, since their design is to share gear and engine oils, so friction modifiers are minimal.


----------



## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

its winter north of toronto...basically stays below freezing until march (warming of the great lakes helps this time of year)..can get low as -30c/f in the january mornings:banghead: ..no starburst symbol on the valvoline maxlife that i can see...i think when the weather gets warmer ill get some 40 weight motorcycle oil. for now its just to see if my gearbox leaks excessively with 10w30 in it.

manual for my friends 99 civic says to use honda mtl when available, but 10w30 can be used temporarily (im guessing "temporarily" means they cant claim lifetime like most manufacturers like to do with gear oil)

is there anything is a VW gearbox that makes it particularly harder on oil that most other manual trans?


----------



## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

oh, my previous fill had molybdenum disulphide (molyslip 0.5 micron) additive, which apparently doesnt drain off when you change the oil. this stuff is said to plate surfaces etc and provide excellent protections for gears, etc. lots of info at bobistheoilguy. Hopefully this stuff hangs around and provides a bit of EP protection for the winter :thumbup:


----------



## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

There's a Gear Oil Analysis Forum at Bob's...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=47&page=1

as well as a forum for just the fluids themselves....

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=16&page=1

and a MT forum here I posted some stuff in....



MAxLife should help any leaking seals, but I can't say I've seen it used an an MTF before. 

It's definately not a slick oil. 

Syncromax is definately suited for your application. 

I don't see how a moly additive should/could be added to a MT application without it interfering with the syncro grab. Did the bottle call for use in an MT? Perceived smoothness could actually be an issue if the syncros experience excess wear. I could be wrong, but moly does affect this. You can have slick friction modifiers for gear (GL-5) apps, but not for GL-4 w/syncros....that's the name of the game.

Rotella T5 10w-30 semi synth is always worth a shot if you still go w/motor oil. Rotella makes a great motorcycle oil, and diesel rated is generally low FMs.


----------



## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

this stuff 'claims' it makes shifting smoother....but in all reality most posts seem to indicate the additive would not effect shifting at all..for better or worse. Its more for the metal to metal contact of the gears/bearings. It made my box quieter, did not affect shifting.

through all my research it appears i am going to have to go to a dealer to get good oil. when i have to change the valvoline out (ill do it next oil change)

1. motocraft MTL gl-4
2. GM 12346190 which is castrol syntorque to my knowledge
3. OEM vw stuff :screwy:
4. Redline mt-90 (most expensive for shipping online)

im not concerned about the heavy oil for the summer months. We get cold winters but the summers can be sweltering.


----------



## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

I double-checked a few fluids,

Mobil 1, AMSoil, Honda MTF, Pentosin, GM Syncromesh, Royal Purple do NOT have any moly. 

VW oem does. 


Bear in mind, the reason the other formula don't have moly isn't they forgot, but they use other additives which they consider better/cost-effective. Moly is old school and most motor oils have done away with it, but still pass their respective tests.


You should be able to get GM SYncromesh at any GM dealer.


----------



## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

so even though synchromesh is so thin, would you recommend it over the GM gl-4 stuff (which is the same as syntorque gl-4)...even for the summer months? what about mixing the two?


----------



## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

I only mix stuff when I already have it. Mixing the two Redline is fine, since they are reallythe same formula, but GM may use different suppliers and they use different chemistries. 

Syncromesh is GL-4, I'm not familiar wither the other GM MTF GL-4.

Syncromesh isn't too thin, as per the new oem VW fluids. 10cSt would be pretty ideal, Redline MTL 70w-80.


----------



## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

ok...for anybody who reads this post in the future. There is a regular synchromesh and a friction modified version. Im sure we want the regular stuff..correct?


----------



## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

GM Synchromesh Transmission Fluid:
* Excellent as a lubricant
* Withstands High Temperatures
* Grade 8.800
* Contains:
- Manual Transmission Fluid Distillates (petroleum), solvent-dewaxed heavy paraffinic - CAS 64742-65-0
- Alkyl benzene C10-C20 2-Propenoic Acid, 2-methyl-, dodecyl ester, polymer with methyl 2-methyl-2-propenate- CAS 30795-64-3
- Magnesium Sulfonate
- Kerosine- CAS 8008-20-6




GM part # 12345349 GM canada part # 89021808

Friction modified version #12377916


----------



## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

Yep, non-friction modified. 

This is one of those things I can say that I guarantee results.


----------



## harmankardon35 (Sep 16, 2009)

huh..somehow got it locally for $9/litre.. one thing about the cST values i think is important...synchromesh is 9.7 Cst @ 100 degrees celcius, well i drove around today holiday shopping for quite a while, trip home was over an hour. I wanted to test the temp of the oil, well i dropped the probe down the speedometer hole immediately after driving (or at least as fast as i could remove the speedometer sensor) and it was 47c. in the summer i highly doubt a stock trans will hit 100c, probably more like 80c tops unless you live in the southern US in the summer. so the cST ratings realistically will be higher with the ambient temperatures. this is why gear oil sucks so bad in cold climates,


----------



## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

Yes, but you want something that will run quiet and correctly formulated for your unit. I wouldn't go any thinner.

Like I said, I can plot some fluids on the graph for comparison if you provide the +40c and +100c visc.


----------



## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*give him a chance*



AudiJunkie said:


> Yes, but you want something that will run quiet and correctly formulated for your unit. I wouldn't go any thinner.
> 
> Like I said, I can plot some fluids on the graph for comparison if you provide the +40c and +100c visc.


we haven't seen any graphs for a day or so


----------



## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

iRONIC, WE HAVN'T SEEN AN INTELLIGENT COMMENT FROM YOU IN A MONTH! :facepalm:


----------



## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*oh well*



AudiJunkie said:


> iRONIC, WE HAVN'T SEEN AN INTELLIGENT COMMENT FROM YOU IN A MONTH! :facepalm:


could intellegence be beyond your limited range of comprehension?


----------



## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

Just like you are with graphs?


----------



## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*rainman*



AudiJunkie said:


> Just like you are with graphs?


you can plot a chart or a graph, you can cut and paste, you can quote the spec of oil, but you haven't the sense the lord allowed a goose.


----------



## AudiJunkie (Jun 19, 2009)

Well, I know 1000x more than you. 


Get your STLE and get back to me.


----------



## gmikel (Nov 10, 2010)

*not*



AudiJunkie said:


> Well, I know 1000x more than you.
> 
> 
> Get your STLE and get back to me.


or a least you think you do


----------



## BHB (Oct 26, 2004)

we're done here. Knock it off kiddies. :facepalm:


----------

