# SDS ignition timing...



## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

Im getting ready to head to the dyno, and im trying some new things out. 
people with sds and experience, tell me what you think of these tables:
rpm/ignition
500/14
750/15
1000/16
1250/21
1500/21
1750/22
2000/24
2250/27
2500/29
2750/30
3000/31
3250/33
3500/33
3750/33
4000/33
4250/33
4500/33
4750/33
5000/33
5250/33
5500/33
5750/33
6000/33
6250/33
6500/33
Map/retard
0 retard in all vacuume until..
3.46/1
4.16/1
4.86/1
5.56/2
6.25/3
6.95/3
7.65/4
8.35/4
9.05/5
9.75/5
10.4/6
11.1/7
11.8/7
12.5/8
13.2/8
13.9/8
14.6/9
15.3/10
thats it until 15psi, the same trend continues though. i wont go over 15psi on 93 octane. 20psi on 110 octane though. Using these tables you can calculate that at [email protected] 4500rpm ill have 33-6=27deg. of total timing.
Likewise, with 15psi @4500rpm I'll have 33-10=23deg. of total timing.
I have been using a rpm only table for years that looked like the following:
500/14
750/15
1000/16
1250/20
1500/21
1750/21
2000/21
2250/21
2500/22
2750/23
3000/23
3250/23
3500/23
3750/23
4000/23
4250/23
4500/23
4750/23
5000/23
5250/23
5500/23
5750/23
6000/23
6250/23
6500/23
It worked fine, and ive never had a problem. All retard values were 0. Im just looking for some more power off boost, and trying new things as I said before.
I have a stock motor, ABA, with 2 head gaskets. This is about 9:1 compression. Assuming air/fuel will be set to 11:1 all through the power band, do you think my new tables look ok for 93 octane? Thanks. Ill be dynoing next week so ill have torque curves then.


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## jynssi (Jan 3, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*

Can't really say anything of SDS, since I've never seen one.
But...
Proper advance depends on way too many factors for anyone to tell on the forum if it works or not.
This is how I make advance map
1) set the curves so that the motor never detonates
2) run on a dyno, listen to the possible detonation with stethoscope
3) read the data acguisition, focus on egt; high egt with good lambda indicates too small advance.
4) increase advance
5) repeat #'s 2,3,4, until first knocking appears or output power stops increasing
6) decrease 2-3 degrees from detonation point, or reduce to the point that the engine gave the best power.
Repeat with different type of loads, different type of accelerations (pumping, using low end torque, revving high etc.)
After all, without removing the stethoscope from the engine, take a test drive. 
It would be the ideal situation to do this on a dyno that has driving condition simulation. ( dunno the exact English phrase for this).
I'll post pics of my stethoscope setup after I get it back, since I loaned it to a customer.
Hope this helps.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (jynssi)*

we have dynos here in the USA that simulate different loads, but they are nowhere as common as a dynojet, where the load is fixed.
i like the idea of the stethescope, but with valvetrane noise, i would imagine it hard to isolate detonation. Im still unsure exactly what it sounds like! I tend to "feel" it more when im driving than hear it. I can feel the motor like hesitate, or buck for a fraction of a second. I dont mean buck like a poorly tuned car, i mean a real small vibration.
anyways, i dont have an egt yet, so thats not doable......
i am not looking for an outright "yes, its good" answer, but more for a "on my engine i slope my timing in a similar fashion" or "27deg of advance is WAY to much for 10psi on 9:1 compression".
just looking for obvious things.


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*

I used to not know what detonation sounded like till I forced my motor to do it. It sounds really crunchy. The powerband remains almost unaffected but you can hear the motor doing it. It sounds like the pistons are chewing on some ruffles. In my car at least. 
Small amounts of detination are really hard to distinguise from a small misfire by feel. Stethescope sounds cool. That would be the only way I could hear it among my exhaust, intake, the turbo, the motor itself and the whole inside of the mk4 rattling. 
I'd love to tell you I know anything about a proper timing map on these engines. I know Silverado does though and he'll probably chime in


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (2kjettaguy)*

I would think that is way to much timing, but I cant prove it. I can say that my knock sensor pulls timing at way less than that with the sensitivity at 15 , SDS manual says twenty.
I have turned it down to 10 and get no more timing pulled but my total at 13 PSI is only 17 degrees. 8.5-1 compression. 
I do think I am missing some power though so let us know what happens.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (mattstacks)*

i can tell you im 100% sure that 17deg of timing for 13psi and 8.5:1 compression is REALLY low, assuming your using 93 octane.
well, thats my opinion at least. ive been running 23deg. with up to 15psi of boost and never had an issue with it.
thats why i dont use knock sensors. just because its pulling out timing doesnt mean your detonating.


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*

using 94 oct.
True, but its a good reference point.
I have it like that, till I can get on a dyno and stand out side the car to listen.


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## Beaver Hunter (Sep 13, 2003)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (mattstacks)*

To me it sounds like "rivets popping" pink,pink,pink. Your timing looks good .I am running low comp 16V so I have full timing by 2k rpm 38 deg. and at torque peak I am pulling out 1 deg rpm timing between 4-5k and I am pulling out app. 1 deg. per lb. boost. I like it on pump gas and the advance down low helps to bring in the bottom end better. I am amazed how much more timing I can run with 7's compression and 16V head. I am at 23 deg. timing at 14 psi where my 8V was 16-17 deg.I am running 94 octane.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (Beaver Hunter)*

16 deg. total advance on only14psi???
wow!
i have that much advance at IDLE! im not trying to mock you, i have just found success with much more timing.


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## vw16vcabby (Sep 19, 2001)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*

ok, here is my 2 cents. keep in mind, im not looking at my sds unit, just trying to go off head.

500/10
750/10
1000/11
1250/13
1500/17
1750/20
2000/24
2250/24
2500/27
2750/30
3000/32
3250/32
3500/32
32 entire way to 7500
as far as pulling timing out, take 1 degree of boost out for each degree of timing. 
so

0 retard in all vacuume until..
3.46/3
4.16/4
4.86/5
5.56/5
6.25/6
6.95/7
7.65/7
8.35/8
9.05/9
9.75/10
10.4/10
11.1/11
11.8/12
12.5/13
13.2/13
13.9/14
14.6/15
15.3/15

as u can see, if under .5, i went to lesser boost numer. if over .5, i went to next boost number. this should get u close on the dyno.
make sure timing at idle is set according to sds manuel (i believe 10* btdc) to do this, hook up timing gun and change magnet postion in sds box until the timing gun reads at 10.
hth
sailor


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## G60volks (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*

I am pulling way more timing out







on my SDS under boost and it still pings. I maybe to lean?? Not sure but the wideband runs about 12-11 to 1 under boost.
Not sure which direction to go now.
ABA with a G60 head, 2 gaskets. super 60 T3 and suppose to be 42 lbs injectors.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (vw16vcabby)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vw16vcabby* »_
make sure timing at idle is set according to sds manuel (i believe 10* btdc) to do this, hook up timing gun and change magnet postion in sds box until the timing gun reads at 10.


I never understood how to see 10deg. of timing with the timing gun. I thought it would be ok to set it to 6deg. at idle, then using the gun, see if I can see the 6deg. advance timing mark in the flywheel inspection hole. This make sence?

i guess i may be too advanced. I'll try lower numbers to begin with, then advance it on the dyno little by little, and see if i make more power. if not, ill leave it with lower numbers.


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## G60volks (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*

I did basically the same thing with the 6 deg. speed51133- what kind of hp numbers are you posting with your setup?


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (G60volks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *G60volks* »_ speed51133- what kind of hp numbers are you posting with your setup?

none








ill let you all now next week. im just getting ready to dyno it probably monday. Ive never really broken 200hp. Its always been 1 thing or another on the dyno(bad wastegate, blown piston, etc.).
THIS time, I went all out and made all new parts, all top notch, so im hoping to break 250hp, but you never know....


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*

Speed, this is a good topic. It's the darkest area of tuning for us VW guys. Everyone seems to be guessing except the Finnish guy.








I know Jefnes3 had some good thoughts on this in past threads.
Also, on the ABA, it's much easier to see the timing on the belt side of the motor. There's a little arrow on the lower timing belt cover, right above damper pulley, and a little notch in the pulley itself. Set your timing gun to 10 degrees, make sure your car is idling @ 10 degrees (gauge 2 mode) and line-up the notch on the pulley to the arrow on the cover using the magnet position on the SDS. (Maybe you knew this already, not sure, but incase you didn't) ...
I'd love to hear more about ignition timing!


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## vw16vcabby (Sep 19, 2001)

following info is str8 from the manuel. i have a timing gun that allows me to rotate the knob to 10 degrees. so i set knob at 10, then adjust the #'s in the sds ecu until everything lines up... hope u understand what im saying. on the flywheel, there is a mark for 6* i believe, so ur only going a little bit past that.
from sds manuel. 

Initial Setup - VERY IMPORTANT 
This step requires a timing light. The best timing light to use, is one that does not have a delay knob. Delay lights may not work properly with multi-spark ignitions or with multi-coil/waste spark ignitions. If you only have a delay type light set the delay to 0. The crank pulley and timing cover must have timing marks on them. 

This involves calling up the MAGNET POSITION parameter using the programmer. This step should be performed as soon as the engine is fired up and idling. Ignition timing is meaningless without first setting the MAGNET POSITION parameter properly. 
A value of between 70 and 90 entered should allow the engine to be started. 80 would be a good starting point and is where the system is factory set. 

STEP 1. Using the Programmer set the following parameters: 
RPM IGNITION 500 to a value of 10. 
RPM IGNITION 750 to a value of 10. 
RPM IGNITION 1000 to a value of 10. 
RPM IGNITION 1250 to a value of 10. 
RPM IGNITION 1500 to a value of 10. 

STEP 2. Make sure that all IGN RET-ADV/LOAD values below boost are 0. 
STEP 3. Start the engine and keep it running below 1500 rpm. 
STEP 4. Connect a timing light. 
STEP 5. Change the MAGNET POSITION value until the timing light reads 10 degrees BTDC.

Once the MAGNET POSITION is set, it does not have to be changed again­ it is only to tell the ECU what the "distance" between the #1 MAGNET and Hall sensor is. Once the above 5 steps are completed, you can program any of the ignition values. 

MAGNET POSITION may need to be adjusted if the Hall sensor is removed for engine repairs, so after it is installed again, then the above procedure should be completed, so the ignition timing is the same as before.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: (vw16vcabby)*

that was all done long time ago, but i have taken off the bracket a few times to do engine work.
i never did it again. I guess I should. I still dont understand what the difference is if i set it using 6deg. advance while its idling, and setting the gun to 6 deg as well and setting magnet position accordingly.
i dont have a timing belt cover.


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (speed51133!)*

There is no difference, I used 12 degrees 'cause that's where I have it at idle ...


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: (Agtronic)*

so how much timing do you run agtronic, and boost?


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: (speed51133!)*

Well, right now my boost is set at 0 psi ...








But my timing map looks like this :
500 : 12
750 : 12
1000 : 13
1250 : 14
1500 : 17
1750 : 20
2000 : 23
2250 : 25
2500 : 28
2750 : 31
3000 : 33
and it stays at 33 all the way to redline ...
I haven't played with my MAP timing at all yet, 'cause I haven't installed the turbo yet ...


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## avw4me (Aug 4, 2000)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*

This post should be made sticky. This is some good info guys.


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## AlwaysInBoost (Sep 4, 2001)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (avw4me)*

i've got a stupid SDS question: do you still retain the use of your speedo and tach with the system installed? I have a 98 VR6 w/ a MFA (if you know what that is) and I wanted to know if I would still be able to use it along with my regular factory gauges?
My friend has DTA and all his instruments don't work now.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (schrickedVR6)*

then your friend did not know how to instal it.
yes, all your gauges work. Your mfa will work also.
everyone thinks that the ecu controls things like a/c, braking, abs, and such.
it doesnt.
tach and speedo will still work. all you have to do is run a wire from the tach output on the coil packs to the cluster, or from your msd box to the cluster.


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (schrickedVR6)*

yes you can still keep the speedo and tach, you just have to find the hot and ground for those wires, the sensors stay instact.


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (mattstacks)*

Any one using there knock sensor, if so what sensitivity do you have it at?


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## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (mattstacks)*

bump


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (mattstacks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mattstacks* »_Any one using there knock sensor, if so what sensitivity do you have it at? 

The stock knock sensor is a 3-wire unit and SDS advises against it. Apparently the 2-wire version is better suited for use with SDS. You can get it from any Volvo dealership, and it bolts right in, looks exactly the same as the ones we have except it has 1 less wire.
But I've also heard of people using the stock 3-wire with SDS, so I don't know what I should do.
And on top of all of this, I often get a "K" next to my timing reading in GAUGE 2 mode, even though my sensor is not hooked up. My knock sensor wire has a plastic terminal and is tucked away, so I don't know why the system is "sensing" knock ... For now I've set the retard values to 0 so that it doesn't mess with my timing, but I'd really like to figure out this problem before I throw-in the turbo.


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (Agtronic)*

Thats a tough one, maybe some sort of line noise.
Yea, I have the proper sensor in, the two wire, SDS suggests a sensor level of twenty for German sensors, I get timing pulled at twenty, with say 17 degrees total at 13 PSI, no pink noise at all. 
I have gotten sick of it and rolled the dice. 
set sensor to ten moved base up to 32 so my total now is at 19 at 13 PSI, I also added a little in the vacuum range.
I then leaned out my fueling in the low vacuum range to 1 PSI where I am at 14 A/F, I get a lot faster spool now and the added timing higher in the range, +2 degrees, developed a noticeable increase in pull.
I am loosing faith in this knock sensor set at the recommended levels. 
Lastly, i pulled from the acc. pump sensitivity and the actual numbers low 18 and high 7 , with a wide band on, I was able to get the car not to go rich as soon as i hit the gas, what a difference in response. 
Can any one tell me if, when driving, you floor it or go close to floor it, should the car stay at say 14.3 in lower numbers of vacuum, or should it go rich, say 11.9 then back up to nominal A/F's per PSI(which is what it had been doing).
Cause the way i have it is that the Acc. pump barely kicks in, I floor it and the A/F's make a normal drop, car pulls a lot harder and spools quicker, but am I missing something, SDS manual doesn't say much.
After I did all this, I get 6-7 PSI by 3000 RPMs with a TO4. Boost starts at 2000. before i was at around 10 or 11 by 4 k now I am at 14


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (mattstacks)*

14:1 and boost is NOT a good mix.
when im on the dyno, i let off the gas if i ever see 14:1.


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## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_14:1 and boost is NOT a good mix.
when im on the dyno, i let off the gas if i ever see 14:1.

you dont wanna know what i was at.... i was at 15af at liek 3500-4500 then it would dip down to 12.5 af
dam fmu's , glad i got that proper shhhiet now
i hope the engine lasts me a while it was liek that for a while


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*

That is up to, not at, by 1 PSI I see 13.7 or so, I dont see that as a big deal, its only one PSI, the idea is to lean it out a bit and heat up the turbine for a qiucker spool up.


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## Patrick Schmidt (Jun 30, 1999)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_
rpm/ignition
500/14
750/15
1000/16
1250/21
1500/21
1750/22
2000/24
2250/27
2500/29
2750/30
3000/31
3250/33
3500/33
3750/33
4000/33
4250/33
4500/33
4750/33
5000/33
5250/33
5500/33
5750/33
6000/33
6250/33
6500/33
Map/retard
0 retard in all vacuume until..
3.46/1
4.16/1
4.86/1
5.56/2
6.25/3
6.95/3
7.65/4
8.35/4
9.05/5
9.75/5
10.4/6
11.1/7
11.8/7
12.5/8
13.2/8
13.9/8
14.6/9
15.3/10


Speed: That is a TON of initial timing. IIRC VW factory timing is 6 degrees BTDC. Do you get any pinging down low with those settings?
Mine looks more like
rpm/ignition
500/10
750/10
1000/10
1250/11
1500/12
1750/13
2000/14
2250/15
2500/17
2750/20
3000/23
3250/25
3500/28
3750/33
4000/33

That's not exact, but I'm not at my car. I know I hit full advance at 3,000 rpm and hold it till redline. My max advance is 34 degrees off the bottle, and 31 on.
HTH,
Pat


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (mattstacks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mattstacks* »_That is up to, not at, by 1 PSI I see 13.7 or so, I dont see that as a big deal, its only one PSI, the idea is to lean it out a bit and heat up the turbine for a qiucker spool up. 

Yeah, that sounds right to me, I've always been under the impression that you didn't need to be in the 12s until like 5-7 psi, so you should start it out at around 13.5 (maybe even leaner) from 0 psi and make your way to ~12 when the boost really comes in hard. 
I hope Jefnes3 has a few words for us! He knows alot about fuel curves!
I've got a book on turbo Honda buildups, and there's a good chapter on fueling, the say that that acceleration fuel should be ~13.5 and no richer than 12.7 ... (We're not talking about max load, but the short time where the throttle plate is opening).


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## vfarren (Sep 11, 2000)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (Patrick Schmidt)*

While I don't run SDS, I do have standalone, and on my 1.8l 16vT it likes to idle around 900 rpm at 15-16 degrees advance. Max timing under boost is 23. That is all I can remember off the top of my head.
The Commander 950 has a function where it automatically adjusts timing to get a smooth idle and it keeps timing b/w 15-16 degrees.

_Quote, originally posted by *Patrick Schmidt* »_
Speed: That is a TON of initial timing. IIRC VW factory timing is 6 degrees BTDC. Do you get any pinging down low with those settings?
Mine looks more like
rpm/ignition
500/10
750/10
1000/10
1250/11
1500/12
1750/13
2000/14
2250/15
2500/17
2750/20
3000/23
3250/25
3500/28
3750/33
4000/33

That's not exact, but I'm not at my car. I know I hit full advance at 3,000 rpm and hold it till redline. My max advance is 34 degrees off the bottle, and 31 on.
HTH,
Pat


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (vfarren)*


_Quote, originally posted by *vfarren* »_While I don't run SDS, I do have standalone, and on my 1.8l 16vT it likes to idle around 900 rpm at 15-16 degrees advance. Max timing under boost is 23. That is all I can remember off the top of my head.

Um, I think the reason your commander is advancing the timing so much is 'cause it's trying to get a good idle, and adding timing brings the RPMs up, maybe your idle screw is not in enough ...
I'm my car idles around 12-14 degrees, and I thought that was really wierd, then I realized I had brought it up there to smooth out the idle, when in fact I should have just used my idle screw.
When we first set our idle, it's a little tricky, 'cause we're used to it idling pretty well when cold, but we forget that the motronic was taking care of that with the ISV (or IAC) ...
Anyways, so far, I don't see anything wrong with running so much timing at idle, it works well for me, but I wonder what it could change ... there must be a reason why the engine runs 6 degrees from the factory. (Or is that just the base timing and the motronic adds more in normal conditions?)


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (vfarren)*

compared to your numbers, yeah, it does look like alot of timing.
on flat ground i dont ping at all.
going up hill, if i bog the motor down, it will ping a bit.
i have since taken out 2-3 deg. between 2k and 3k rpm on the timing curve i initially posted to solve this. and it did solve it.
i was supposed to hit up the dyno today, but sunday night i got drunk and diddnt wake up feeling all there!


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*

Mines at ten degrees total at 750 1K, with the magnet position set at 70 or 71.
I have a hard time getting the car to idle if its less then 65 engine temp, I haven't been able to smooth out the cold start and idle enrichment.
Above it starts and idles at around 500 till the 70,s
after 70 degrees motor temp, I get perfect idle, sometimes 750 sometimes 1000, but it makes no difference, still perfect, the wideband sits at 14.7. 
42# injectors, cis inline, 3.5 bar FPR, billet fuel rail. 


_Modified by mattstacks at 11:39 PM 10-20-2003_


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (mattstacks)*

i idle my car at like 500 in summer on a cold start, and once its warm its like 750.
in winter i have to let it idle at like 750 on a cold start, and once its warm its like 100-1250.
i dont have the fast/cold idle option.
i just adjust the throttle body in summer or winter.
it always starts on the first crank, and it doesnt have a hard time.


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## Beaver Hunter (Sep 13, 2003)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (mattstacks)*

That is a big problem with street turbo cars is that they will ping under load in a high gear"lugging it".That is why it is a good idea to have that boost retard going,because under load you can be making more boost at a lower rpm that is not rich and will ping.Usually we lean out lower rpms to help spool the turbo and because engines don't start getting efficient til later in the rev range,and then we + our rpm fuel #'s.If you add that boost retard the less timing will help and you won't ping so badlybecause we are building boost under load early in a higher gear (up a hill)and boosting in those lower/leaner rpm fuel ranges,,and with my 8V I ran richer in the bottom end than with the 16V due to the higher compression(same as you are running 8.5:1)than 16V motor I am running.Mattstacks,it is easy to do warmup,all you do is have wide band hookerd up in the morning and as it warms up (you have to be quick!) read the engine temp and a/f and quickly adjust your temp values to get the a/f right and it takes a couple times but mine starts and idles no idle stabiliser,but I also live in 70deg. weather year round.


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## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (Beaver Hunter)*

can anyone expaln the general ignition theory
liek in "general" whats the norm for timing , how many degrees to retard etc
i dont knop crap about ignition/timing execpt that spark and fuel =boom LOL
this should be easy liek AF, i dont understand me , i can make stuff and what not, but not learn this crap LOLTIA


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## Beaver Hunter (Sep 13, 2003)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (D Wiz)*

It's easy man,just visualize a piston going up,and visualize how many deg. of ratation before TDC you want to light off the flame,since FI is so much more dense with fuel and oxygen you want to light it off later due to the higher combustability/volatility and get you peak combustion pressures after TDC,not before.If you think about that,it is easy.BUT there are A LOT of factors involved with each and every setup/car.


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## vfarren (Sep 11, 2000)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (Agtronic)*

Hmmm, I'll give it a shot and see what happens. Car idles rock steady when warm, but I'll play with the idle screw and see what the timing does.

_Quote, originally posted by *Agtronic* »_
Um, I think the reason your commander is advancing the timing so much is 'cause it's trying to get a good idle, and adding timing brings the RPMs up, maybe your idle screw is not in enough ...


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (Beaver Hunter)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Beaver Hunter* »_Mattstacks,it is easy to do warmup,all you do is have wide band hookerd up in the morning and as it warms up (you have to be quick!) read the engine temp and a/f and quickly adjust your temp values to get the a/f right and it takes a couple times but mine starts and idles no idle stabiliser,but I also live in 70deg. weather year round. 

Yea at 70 i am fine, I am talking about when its in the forty's out. let me get this right, I need to have it a stoich? as soon as the car starts right? Thats what i assumed, that i am adding fuel to get the car to run at stoich, not rich. I have been doing this, its not as easy as you might think, the car starts then stalls no matter how much fuel I add or remove, i am still playing with it, I think the cold start option may be flooding it, but if I pull to much from that window the car doesn't start.
Speed, yea if i open the throttle body then i am fine, but from what i have read, you don't want to warm the car up like that, I have no explanation for it its just what I read. I think it says that in the SDS manual.


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## BUNNYLOVE (Jul 28, 2000)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (mattstacks)*

Basically set it as lean as it will run which will be richer than 14.7:1 for warmup. On stock FI cars the system is in open loop until it warms up to allow a richer mixture at startup and until the car is up to temp.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (mattstacks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mattstacks* »_
Speed, yea if i open the throttle body then i am fine, but from what i have read, you don't want to warm the car up like that, I have no explanation for it its just what I read. I think it says that in the SDS manual. 

there isnt anything wrong with it. thats precisly what the cold start option does. what your thinking of is pressing the gas pedal to get it to idle. that causes the accelerator pump to kick in extra gas, and while its not bad, its just not the right way to do it. you should just add the fuel in using the "start" values.
turning the throttle screw just lets more air in, as does the cold start option, or the aic valve(i dont have either).
the cold start option cant flood it. all it can do is lean it. all it is is a little valve that lets air into the motor, essentially the same thing as putting a hole in the throttle body butterfly.
i think you need to read the manual a few times, and understand what the start values do, what the cold start does, and what the coolant temp. values all do and how they relate to eachother.
by the way, what did you set your start cycles to?? ever tweak thoes? i mean your start values only affect the way your car runs during the start cycles. like for a few seconds. after that, no matter what your start values are, they dont do anything. the coolant temp values then control how much fuel your adding.


_Modified by speed51133! at 8:42 AM 10-21-2003_


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*

Yea, I stated the wrong thing, I do not have the cold start option as you explained it, I am talking about the start cycle and the engine temp windows. 
Those are the two windows, I am using. i drilled and tapped in a screw at my throttle body for idle, if I open it further, I get better results but usually idle high later in the day when its warmer, the car sits in the winter but I like to drive it in the fall.
I have read the manual more times than i would like to admit, I just called what i was doing the wrong name.


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## euro_racer16v (Jun 22, 2003)

I am with D Wiz on this one. i have a wolf 3d standalone. turbo project is not running yet and i need to learn more about ignition timing. does anyone know of any good material to read up on? book? internet? or maybe explain how you come up on those figures some of you have posted up. i understand as far as on the dyno. but i will no tbe dynoing it right away and i would like to make a base map. but i need to find info on this. thanks for everyones posts so far.


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## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: (euro_racer16v)*

dont even bother with corky bells maximum boost, i have it and it doesnt explain anything about timing curves, i guess you just "pick it up" along the way
bump for speed who as we speak is at the dyno, lets see what he comes back with


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (D Wiz)*

Get your fuel right, then retard one degree per PSI. Then go to the dyno and see where your engine gains/looses power in regards to timing. 
simply put


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## Beaver Hunter (Sep 13, 2003)

*Re: (mattstacks)*

14.7 1 is a ratio they use due to the fact it creates the best balance of emissions.But cars really idle better in the 12-13 a/f ratio.My car idles perfeclty at 12.7:1 woth 19 in hg.Try setting your idle fuel to 12-13's afr and tell me what happens.For start cycles I use 20-30,I am at 24 right now.


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: (Beaver Hunter)*

Cool, I did not know that, mine seems fine at 14.7. 
I will give that try, and go from there thanks.


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## vw16vcabby (Sep 19, 2001)

for those of u w/ sds and no idle warm up, play w/ the mixture knob upon starty up. that should get u going until u get into tghe programmer itself to change numbers. personally, i would try to start the car, and if it were too cold, i would look at screen 1 to see temps. go into those temps and add fuel. seems to work as i seldom have to use the knob on cold start-up.
as far as ignition timing curves go, i picked up the 1 degree off for 1 lb boost seen tip from the domestic crowd. all the old mullets in my area w/ a s/c or turbo on their stang, camaro, etc. Used their knowledge and misfortuens in helping me to set up my own car. In addition, i looked at everyone else who had a PROVEN map on similar vw motor. combined alot and got where im at tuning wise. 
Anymore when i make a change, i hook a wideband up and go drive around on the street. granted, im not 100% dead on, but im not out $ for dyno time. basically look to see what my a/f is, and if i notice any detonation. I, in my opin, and pretty close to the threshhold of what a/f reading is. Im sitting around 12.5-1 from 3k up to redline. This nets me 1600 degree egt temps. In compariosn, my friend who drags a grand national turbo buick leans his car out to 14-1 range, which nets him similar egt temps. Now if the 12.5 -1 ratio is the best, im not 100% sure. thats where a dyno comes in hand, try richening/leaning out areas to see the desired curve. I should be getting some time here in the future to find out for sure
It was funny, b/c he was riding in my car and was watching my egt temps and the wideband. found it odd that i was so rich, yet getting those egt temps. So obviously, different engines have different traits-- and u deff. will break something trying to find characteristics if you are pushing the envelope.


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (mattstacks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mattstacks* »_Those are the two windows, I am using. i drilled and tapped in a screw at my throttle body for idle, if I open it further, I get better results but usually idle high later in the day when its warmer, the car sits in the winter but I like to drive it in the fall.
I have read the manual more times than i would like to admit, I just called what i was doing the wrong name. 

_I_ knew you meant cold start values ...








At the risk of stating something you are already 100% aware of, the START CYCLES only takes place for a few seconds when you start the car, no matter what the temperature is. So if the car starts well and after a few seconds goes rough, your START values are good, but your temp values are not. 
Another thing you have to remember is, when the engine is cold, it will idle lower, so, it's impossible to get a good idle @ 20°C AND at 110°C without having an ISV ... That's why SDS offers the cold start option, which lets in more air (like the ISV would do) but it's on/off, so when the engine is cold, the cold start solenoid would open and raise the RPM (in the same exact way you do by holding the gas pedal down) until the engine warms up.
The ACC PUMP only adds more fuel while the throttle is opening, so if you hold it down at the same position, the ACC PUMP is not operating.


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## Sleepy Mk1 (Nov 16, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*

Here's my map just for another example. Only heard it ping once at about 17psi when the wastegate vacuum line came of on the way to the track. I can run about 20psi with the same map and good fuel.
Rpm Fuel ign 
500 95 0 
750 81 8 
1000 81 10 
1250 83 10 
1500 85 13 
1750 85 17 
2000 86 21 
2250 86 24 
2500 87 27 
2750 87 30 
3000 88 32 
3250 88 v 
Man Pres. ign 
0 up to 9.05 
then 1 for every lb up...


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (Agtronic)*

Yea, thats what I meant, that I think my start cycle may be flooding the spark but if I pull too much out, it wont start. I know its for a couple of seconds, but it doesnt matter how much I fatten the temp window the car still starts then stalls at low temps. 
Like I said I need to play with it some more. And possible pick up the cold start option.

Good info in this thread.


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (mattstacks)*

Yeah, I think you need more air ...


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (Sleepy Mk1)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Sleepy Mk1* »_I can run about 20psi with the same map and good fuel.
Rpm Fuel ign 
500 95 0 
750 81 8 
1000 81 10 
1250 83 10 
1500 85 13 
1750 85 17 
2000 86 21 
2250 86 24 
2500 87 27 
2750 87 30 
3000 88 32 
3250 88 v 
Man Pres. ign 
0 up to 9.05 
then 1 for every lb up...

so at 10psi you have 31 deg. timing after 3krpm till redline?
that seems like a TON, do you mean something else?


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## Slynus (Mar 19, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*

If you want the cold start option, I will get it for you through the group buy that a few of us are doing. Save you a couple of bucks if you want.


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## Sleepy Mk1 (Nov 16, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*


_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_
so at 10psi you have 31 deg. timing after 3krpm till redline?
that seems like a TON, do you mean something else?

I've heard that before, but the car doesn't seem to mind. I had the motor apart last summer and there were absolutely no signs of detonation...


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## GTibunny16v (Aug 12, 2001)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (Sleepy Mk1)*

31 timing on 10psi does sound like alot. I know 16v's can run alot more timing than 8v's under boost but from what I gather most people are running 23-25 degrees of timing under 10psi in a 16v.
EDIT: what is your compression ratio?


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## evolveVW (Nov 11, 2000)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (GTibunny16v)*

vw16vcabby has got it right for startup.. the first few days my car ran I played with the start values and start cycles and now the car fires up regardless of temperature. Idles smooth at 750 and it is on the rich side... turning the fuel down results in the car turning off. I am also running timing #s that start at 10 and go to 32 with 1 degree out per pound of boost and seems to work very well. I researched some 1.8t stock and chipped maps and some of them were higher timing wise than what I have setup


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## Beaver Hunter (Sep 13, 2003)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (evolveVW)*

Since I have such low comp,I actually can run 27-28 deg. at 10-11 lbs boost,it is a trip,I used to be able to only run 21 deg.It is amazing what a better compressor,and lower comp. allow you to run timing wise.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (Beaver Hunter)*

the following is 18psi, my damn manual boost controller wont go past 18psi!
















before anyone says its too rich up top, i leaned it out to 11:1, and it diddnt make any more than like 1 or 2 hp more. id rather have it at 10:1 and loose a hp.
the following is 10psi
















the pair of graphs at 10psi are the same run, just printed out twice. same deal with the 18psi graphs.
i can write a full page of text about today's 4hr dyno session, but to make it brief:
i dont like how i dont make more hp over 4500rpm on the 18psi run. i did try leaning it out so it was 11:1 after 4500 rpm, and that diddnt do anything. i also tried adding more timing(4deg), and it diddnt do anything. i have 2 head gasketes stacked to lower comp., and i thin a cam gear might help this out. ive seen others do more up top on a stock aba head.


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## Beaver Hunter (Sep 13, 2003)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*

Those ar nice #'s.Smooth power for sure.


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*

Those are some nice numbers. What size turbo do you have? It looks like your power comes on pretty late. Though I like how your HP just flattens right out and sticks


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (Beaver Hunter)*


_Quote, originally posted by *Beaver Hunter* »_Since I have such low comp,I actually can run 27-28 deg. at 10-11 lbs boost,it is a trip,I used to be able to only run 21 deg.It is amazing what a better compressor,and lower comp. allow you to run timing wise.

Do you think that you get more power with more timing, then you would have in the past.
In essence do you think you can make more power with greater timing and lower compression, using the same set up.


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (mattstacks)*

Good question - which provides more power for you guys?
High compression - less timing
Low compression - more timing
Theoretically if the timing is correct for the rate of combustion then both should make equal power at equal boost, if not the higher compression motor. However won't less timing result in higher combustion chamber temps and higher EGTs? I know, nothing really works in theory








I'm interested though as I am wondering the next step for my motor


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## GTibunny16v (Aug 12, 2001)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*

I cant believe that the power drops off so quickly. I thought it would hold much nicer to 6000-6500rpm. Nice power output though. Are you running a stock cam still?


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## D Wiz (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (GTibunny16v)*

255whp, nice and rich, thats is so dependable and 2 headgaskets is what i think he runs, 
nice #'s speed http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif








now i wanna see a time slip


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## Sahale (Apr 9, 1999)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (GTibunny16v)*

are you getting a boost spike around 4500?


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## Beaver Hunter (Sep 13, 2003)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (D Wiz)*

The lower compression does allow you to run more boost safely.


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (Beaver Hunter)*

Yes, but is that at the cost of power, or how much more effective is the boost when the compression is less, i am sure there is math for this question but I am too tired to mess with it. 
Again in theory, more boost would not equal more air in the compression chamber if the compression is less in that chamber, I would think it would have to be a dramatic amount of boost to actually make up for the loss of compression. 
Although what normally holds us back in regards to turning up the boost is that the amount of timing pulled alleviates any gain made from turning up the boost. You dont have that problem.
Lastly, is turning up the boost always the answer, it would depend on how efficient the turbo is, in theory wouldn't the lower number of boost for the most power, be the best option since the harder you push the turbo the higher the temps and the choppier the air not to mention the time ita takes to get there. 


_Modified by mattstacks at 12:34 AM 10-23-2003_


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## 2kjettaguy (Dec 24, 2000)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (mattstacks)*


_Quote, originally posted by *mattstacks* »_Yes, but is that at the cost of power, or how much more effective is the boost when the compression is less, i am sure there is math for this question but I am too tired to mess with it. 
Again in theory, more boost would not equal more air in the compression chamber if the compression is less in that chamber, I would think it would have to be a dramatic amount of boost to actually make up for the loss of compression. 
Although what normally holds us back in regards to turning up the boost is that the amount of timing pulled alleviates any gain made from turning up the boost. You dont have that problem.
Lastly, is turning up the boost always the answer, it would depend on how efficient the turbo is, in theory wouldn't the lower number of boost for the most power, be the best option since the harder you push the turbo the higher the temps and the choppier the air not to mention the time ita takes to get there. 

_Modified by mattstacks at 12:34 AM 10-23-2003_

well, your looking at alot of factors. Compression ratio shows the volume of mixture compressed with the valve closed. Boost is a factor of how much air molecules your pushing into the open volume before it's compressed. Less compression of the volume of air in the cylinder results in a smaller combustion and thus less peak cylinder pressure. (PCP)
I can't throw down the math for this, but 10psi at 10:1 compression is going to result is more PCP than 10psi at 8.5:1 compression. More PCP "theoretically" = more power. 
However with increased PCP you get a greater chance of erratic combustion in the form of detonation at the same timing value as the lower compression ratio. With less timing on the high compession motor you get a hotter burn and higher EGTs. Hotter burn can further promote detonation in the combustion chamber. 
So, with the lower compression you have lower PCPs, more timing advance and less EGTs. Depending on how much timing your pulling at 10psi to compensate for detonation, the lower compression motor may make equal if not more power than the higher compression motor at equal boost regardless of lower PCPs. 
In the end you want to get your PCPs at the sweet spot. If I remember correctly that's 10-14 degrees ATDC. You can do this at any compression ratio but with the risk of detonation ruining your party you're forced to pull timing away from the sweet spot to save the motor. With less chance of detonation you can run your timing safely approaching the sweet spot so that you make max power. 
Look at Speed's dyno. Assuming his manifolds and turbo don't produce much more raw power than my ATP manifold, stock intake manifold and .48/.60 T3 he is making 15 more whp at 10 psi than me. My timing's posted in the thread I started. My knock sensors are pulling it all out, his aren't. (SDS) 
Correct me If I am wrong... I am really tuning into an internet mechanic here




_Modified by 2kjettaguy at 1:39 AM 10-23-2003_


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (2kjettaguy)*

the timing in the 10psi map is not what i origonally posted.
its less. i pulled out 1deg for each psi of boost.
BTW
adding 4deg accross the chart only netted about 5hp MAX while the hp was climbing, and like nothing up top. i dont thing the added timing is really worth it. much safer with 5less hp and 4 deg. less timing IMO.
I can say that this dyno run was giving me more hp at 10 psi than my last dyno run. the only thing that was different was my intake and my exhaust manifolds.








and to answer the boost spike question.....
I guess it depends how you put it. i make 1psi at 2750, until about 3250rpm. then, after 3250, boost starts to climb like a mofo. By like 4250 I have max boost(18psi). That kinda sucks because by 4500 by hp is just flat. the valvetrane is totally stock, and its a stock aba throttle body. i really think a bigger TB and/or port work and/or a cam gear would help push the 4500 rpm power limit a little higher. 
ill be trying a cam gear "soon". 4hrs on the dyno this time was expensive.


_Modified by speed51133! at 7:00 AM 10-23-2003_


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## TooLFan46n2 (Oct 18, 1999)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*

Congrats Speed. Badass numbers http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif


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## Agtronic (May 14, 2001)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*

First of all, congratulations on the numbers! I'm looking forward to similar numbers I hope!

_Quote, originally posted by *speed51133!* »_adding 4deg accross the chart only netted about 5hp MAX while the hp was climbing, and like nothing up top. i dont thing the added timing is really worth it. much safer with 5less hp and 4 deg. less timing IMO.

Well, that's what I always heard too. When adding timing isn't making a lot of power, it's time to back off a bit. Sounds like you did just that. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
I guess it depends how you put it. i make 1psi at 2750, until about 3250rpm. then, after 3250, boost starts to climb like a mofo. By like 4250 I have max boost(18psi). That kinda sucks because by 4500 by hp is just flat. the valvetrane is totally stock, and its a stock aba throttle body. i really think a bigger TB and/or port work and/or a cam gear would help push the 4500 rpm power limit a little higher.[/QUOTE]
That would certainly help. It you don't care much for bottom-end torque, you could try one of the hotter cams usually used in N/A, like a 268 or something!


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (Agtronic)*

everyone is telling me congrats on the numbers, but in all honesty, Im not that happy with it.
Im really pissed I diddnt get to run 20psi. My spring in my wastegate is like 6psi(i ordered 9psi when i got it but never complained).
then I have a boost controller from http://www.boostvalve.com
i tightened the thing in all the way, and could only muster up 18psi. Maybe i can change the spring inside the MBC........ i really wanted to get 300hp. But even with 2 more psi, i think id be at like 270hp. 
Ive been told by 1 person who has made 300hp on a 8v, that I really need a cam gear and to advance the cam timing. He said it netted him 30hp. That would deffinatly put me where I "wanted" to be.


_Modified by speed51133! at 7:12 AM 10-23-2003_


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## mattstacks (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*

2kjettaguy that is all understood and somewhat, what i was saying. Yet if the compression at the chamber is lower, than the amount of air being ignited, boosted or not, is going to be less. It doesn't matter how much you turn the boost up. Because you are still compressing less, pressurized air.
I was saying that lowering the compression and turning the boost up will probably not yield more power, even though you can add more timing.


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## GTibunny16v (Aug 12, 2001)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (mattstacks)*

These are just some number I came up with to make life easy. You have a thing called an Effective Compression Ratio. 8:1 compression and 20psi gives you the same ECR as if you had 10:1 compression and 10psi. This is just an example. 
If all else is equal (timing, boost onset, etc...) you should make the same power.


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## BUNNYLOVE (Jul 28, 2000)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (speed51133!)*

Mike, I had a cam gear on mine retarded 4 or 5 degrees, an early dual valve spring head with a stock cam and a 65mm throttle body. I made peak whp at 6k. I never dynoed with and without the gear but it did make a difference on the track where it would die right at 5k before. I dropped almost two seconds going from 7 to 15psi and retarding the cam gear.


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## speed51133! (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: SDS ignition timing... (BUNNYLOVE)*

i really think i need a vr6 tb and a cam gear.
im willing to bet at least 20whp lies in thoes 2.
ill get the ball rolling on that, and youll see some more dyno runs in a few months.


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